# "all plants will rot in 3 months"



## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

I was at a lfs in Denver getting ready to stock my new tank. I wanted to try some plants. I asked the lfs guy, and the dialog went like this:

"Can you recommend some plants for low light, low tech?"

lfs guy: "Sure, plastic ones"

"Well, how about something alive that can handle low lght?"

lfs guy: "Yea, plastic ones"

"You mean there's nothing that will grow in low light?"

lfs guy: "Sure, but they all die. You want plastic ones"

That night I found this forum. There is more knowledge on this forum than you'll find in most fish stores, and that is an understatement.

If you want a 'lush' tank I think you'll have to work at it with low tech low light, but there seems to be quite a bit that you can do. FYI it's been about 3 months and my plants are beautiful. Low tech medium light.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

That is not true at all. Plants can usually live for many years. I still have some plants from back when I started planted tank keeping two years ago. You can have perfectly fine tanks with the low tech method. CO2 is really not a necessity unless you have very high light levels (around 3-5 wpg as a rough guideline) or you want to keep some of the more demanding plant species. Otherwise, most plants will grow fine without CO2. Also, if your tank isn't too big, you could try dosing Flourish Excel, which is a liquid carbon supplement that can be used in place of CO2.

Also, here's a tip. Try getting plants from the members on here through the Swap'n'shop section. It's usually much cheaper and the plants you get will be a lot healthier.


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## WillyJ (Jun 22, 2010)

If it was one of the bigger pet stores (yeah, you know who I'm talking about), they tend to sell plants that aren't true aquatics. These will rot.


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## Eden Marel (Jan 28, 2010)

True aquatic no problem. Nothing lasts forever, but plants are living things and have mechanisms to ensure their species survival. Whether it be sending runners, seeds, etc...

You think you killed your Water Sprite or Water Wisteria? You better think again, leaves from those plants will develop roots and secret laugh evilly like this: Bwahahahahahahahaahahaahahaahahaa you will never get rid me never!!!!11!!!1


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## Hadouken441 (Mar 19, 2010)

oh Dave-h I got mad reading that post dialouge haha. Ya a lot of fish stores hire people just to hire them. A lot of the workers i've dealt with are really clueless and give answers just to give them even if they are wrong.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Hadouken441 said:


> oh Dave-h I got mad reading that post dialouge haha. Ya a lot of fish stores hire people just to hire them. A lot of the workers i've dealt with are really clueless and give answers just to give them even if they are wrong.


This was the co-owner of a one-off lfs in the Denver area. A store that I actually really like!


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## Sharkbait-ooHAHA (Sep 15, 2010)

I wish I could kill my water lettuce.


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## Nate McFin (Mar 19, 2009)

.......And thats the reason I trust no one at my local fish store. 


Good for you for asking questions here. Plants will live a long time in the right persons care. For what its worth I wouldn't purchase plants from them unless they are known and TRUE aquatic plants. Swap and Shop here is the way to go!


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## ponyo (Aug 9, 2010)

Thanks for your replies. I feel more reassured now. It actually was a very small, independent pet store with a large fish section (actually that was almost all they had) so that's why I didn't just dismiss it. 

And there's another fish store near me where they have a lot of plants and I heard they would order plants for you if they didn't have them. I thought maybe I could save on shipping that way LOL. But when I went there, all their plants look really haggard and unhealthy. :/


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## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

Many of my plants have been alive and moved from tank to tank for a couple of years now. Don't hold your breath that you will find any knowledgeable person in a LFS especially a big box store. The reason why the guy said said that the plants will only last a few months is because he was probably putting the infamous "tube" plants in his tank, and of course since most a good majority of them are terrestrial, they will not survive. 

You did the right thing by coming to this site. Ask many questions, many many many. And you will get the right info.


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## CLASSIC (Feb 25, 2009)

All plants i bought or was given through swap and shop are still thriving most 2 years old. Most plants i bought at LFS have perished, except the pennywort i bought. Swap and Shop is the best. There are alot of great low light plants as well.


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## BaltimoreGuy (Dec 23, 2009)

ponyo said:


> I've got my hardscape done and I know want plants I want. I'm going about trying to buy them (man they're expensive). But I'm getting nervous.
> 
> A while ago I was in a pet store that had a lot of fish and a guy who seemed very knowledgeable about fish tanks. He said plants look great for 3 months and then they all rot, no matter what you do.
> 
> ...


He might be right, if they were grown emerged then usually the leaves will die back and new submerged leaves will grow from the root/rhizome.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

I have a 4 year old sword plant that is under very low light.... Seems your LFS should stick to fish and not plants.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

I got a plant, wisteria, from Hong Kong last year that arrived in poor condition. I cut the 5 stems to 3 in. It grew into a bush. I still have it. He is faking it!! He knows nothing about plants and is trying to appear that he does. 

My tank is low tech. My lights are 3 T8s. I dose Brightwell multi and Fe with the addition of Seachem Excell.

If you can find an aquarium association in your area, you can probably get good cheap plants there. Probably better to buy plants from forum in England like this one the tropical tank


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## jwalls1082 (Jul 14, 2010)

Says he's from New England, which is here in the US. :icon_cool Either way, I haven't had a lot of luck at the big box stores for advice of any kind. I too was about to give up on plants because of multiple failures. I found this site while browsing around another forum and it gave me new hope for going planted. It's a great help and a great place to find nice healty plants as well. Don't give up!


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

I think he is from New England, Hilde.  What kind of lighting do you have and what are your goals? Perhaps we can suggest some nice plants for you. Java ferns, crypts, dwarf sag, most mosses and anubias come to mind off hand.

PS, welcome to the forum!


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## SHIKARI (Sep 11, 2010)

I am prettymuch done with petstores for one I live in BFE and the closest towh has stores which sell garbage at exorbitant prices and do not know jack,even the petsmart did not have any fertlizers,liquid or tabs,talk about lousy stock and worse service.


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## ponyo (Aug 9, 2010)

Thanks for the welcome. 

I have my hardscape set up (I'm going to add one rock to the right hand side):










This is a 35 gal tank. And my plan for plants is fissidens fontanus on the drift wood, some vallisneria nana around the base of the driftwood and maybe behind the rock in the right hand corner (the rock's not in the picture yet). lilaeopsis mauritius for a "field" covering most of the tank--maybe not right near the base of the drift wood. I think I'm also going to add some anubias nana petite here and there. 

That's my plan for plants. The substrate is eco-complete. The driftwood is from Rod. The rocks are granite and from a stream near by, they have been boiled. 

I do have a few more questions. I've been waiting to buy the light fixture because I wanted to first know what plants I was getting. So now that I do, what light fixture is best for those plants and a low tech set up in a 35 gal tank? 

And should I dose ferts and excel? 

And when you have a planted tank you obviously don't vacuum the substrate right? Just do water changes? 

Oh yeah here's another big question. I'm not getting all my plants at once. Tomorrow I'm picking up the anubias nana petite because a local store ordered it for me. But then the val and moss is being shipped (I got that through the swap and shop here) and then I still have to purchase the "grass". So what should I do with the plants while I wait until I have all of them? Should I just put them in the bottom of the tank, fill it part way with water and put on the light (that I'll have to buy tomorrow)? 

And how do you cycle a planted tank? I have a small tank running with two fish in it and an old filter that I probably should really buy a new cartage for. I was going to squeeze out the cartridge into the big tank when I got it all set up. Do I need to add ammonia every day and test it until it balances out? 

Sorry if these are really stupid questions. If you don't want to answer them maybe you could point me in the direction of where I could find the answers. Thanks so much!


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## rhstranger (Mar 4, 2010)

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/planted-tank-faq/

the FAQ were invaluable to me when I first joined here. I learned so much from the stickies, and reading.

I have a low light 29g with a coralife 2 x18w T5NO fixture, and have successfully kept crypts, java fern, moss, various hygros, moneywort, hornwort, and swords all alive for the last 6 months with just extremely occasional dosing of flourish and root tabs every 3 months.
i lightly vacuum the surface of the gravel weekly for my WC, as I have cories, and want to keep the gravel fairly clean for them. There is still some mulm to help with the plants. Some people vacuum, others don't. 
It all depends on the different circumstances of your setup.
There are choices for cycling a tank also. Fish-in cycle, which some people don't like, as it is hard on the fish; fishless cycle (with ammonia, or fish food (dirty) or, as lauraleelbp just recently told me, a cocktail shrimp, which i am presently using in cycling a 5g), or even a silent cycle, where the cycling is done by planting extremely heavily and the plants absorb any AM/NO2/NO3 that are produced by the light stocking that is gradually built upon.
As I said, I'm no expert, and I could be wrong on some of this info. Your best bet is to read, and ask. There are many really helpful people here.
Best of luck.
PS: the scaping looks really nice. Can't wait to see your tank in it's full glory.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

ponyo said:


> This is a 35 gal tank.


How long is it?


ponyo said:


> Plan for plants is:
> fissidens fontanus
> vallisneria nana
> lilaeopsis mauritius
> anubias nana petite


I think the addition of Hygrophila polysperma 'Rosanervig' would look nice.


ponyo said:


> What light fixture is best for this low tech set up?


I think a T5NO from Big Al's


ponyo said:


> And should I dose ferts and excel?


Brightwell Multi
Potassium carbonate, Chlorine, Calcium sulfate
4ml weekly

Brightwell K
Potassium sulfate
4ml weekly

Seachem Excell 2ml daily

Can get them from Linens N Things for low price. Shipping is 0 to $3.
[/SIZE]


ponyo said:


> Don't vacuum the substrate right? Just do water changes?


Vacuum light when needed. Just run vacuum 1/4 in above substrate. Water changes depends on algae. Some only do water changes yearly. I do monthly or have algae problems. More info at Barrreport and APC


ponyo said:


> So what should I do with the plants while I wait until I have all of them?


Tom Barr suggest start with a dry start. That is just a little water and mist to keep the moisture. Your plants are low light thus would be okay with a table lamp for awhile.


ponyo said:


> And how do you cycle a planted tank? I have a small tank running with two fish in it and an old filter.


q8vw and fishbreath used 1 frozen shrimp cocktail. Using the old filter will speed the process up. If the filter is dirty you just rinse it in water with water condition in it. I always let the water sit a bit with water conditioner.


ponyo said:


> Sorry if these are really stupid questions.


Not stupid at all. I wish I had asked these questions before starting. I learned the hard way.


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## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

I think some of the longer vals would look killer in the far left side, allowing them to grow along the surface to follow the flow of the driftwood.


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## WillyJ (Jun 22, 2010)

Hilde said:


> I got a plant, wisteria, from Hong Kong last year that arrived in poor condition. I cut the 5 stems to 3 in. It grew into a bush. I still have it. He is faking it!! He knows nothing about plants and is trying to appear that he does.
> 
> My tank is low tech. My lights are 3 T8s. I dose Brightwell multi and Fe with the addition of Seachem Excell.
> 
> If you can find an aquarium association in your area, you can probably get good cheap plants there. Probably better to buy plants from forum in England like this one the tropical tank


Wisteria is evil... It will take over your tank in a matter of weeks and sticks around even after you think you've got it all :angryfire


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

WillyJ said:


> Wisteria is evil... It will take over your tank in a matter of weeks and sticks around even after you think you've got it all :angryfire


It hasn't done that in my tank. It stay in the spot I put it.


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## ponyo (Aug 9, 2010)

Thanks Hilde, for your indepth answers to all my questions. Now I have some more LOL:

Also, the tank is 31" long as I recall. 

I tried to find some articles by Tom Barr but I could only find an article by someone else that referenced him. And it was a little confusing because at first it says you must plant lushly from the beginning (which I don't think I'll be doing because I couldn't afford it!) 
and you shouldn't do any water changes because of the difference in CO2 conc.

But then it says if you don't plant lushly that's ok, you just need to do water changes? So confused! 

And if you don't plant lushly should you still add the same amount of ferts/minerals etc? 

Also, when you say to start out dry, I should just fill the tank up a little bit? Should the plants not be fully submersed? They adapt ok to growing like that and then being fully submersed later? And what about the plants that are high on the drift wood? Just spray them a lot to keep them moist? They'll be ok? 

Thanks again!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

ponyo said:


> Also, when you say to start out dry, I should just fill the tank up a little bit? And what about the plants that are high on the drift wood? Just spray them a lot to keep them moist?


I have never tried it, for concentrated on cycling the tank. It seems though this method helps the plants, especially ground cover plants, grow faster. They just cover the substrate with water and mist the plants daily. 


ponyo said:


> Tom Barr plant lushly from the beginning (which I don't think I'll be doing because I couldn't afford it!).


 Yeh, most say when starting a tank plant lush. Just use cheap plants like Hornwort. It is a floating plant and helps absorbs ammonia. Used to help speed up cycling. Rex Griggs calls it a silent cycle


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## ponyo (Aug 9, 2010)

I read the article link. He says wait a few months before putting in your "real" plants but I'm wondering why can't I put in my aquascape and then just have the floating Hornwort to make it dense enough and after a few months take out the Hornwort?

One more question. I think my water is hard. How can I test to find out how hard it is and if I need to add RO water and how much RO water etc?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

You test water hardness with gH and kH test kits. They run about $10 at www.BigAlsOnline.com.

9x/10 you can use your water straight out of the tap in terms of hardness and don't need to do anything to alter that (other than condition it to remove chlorine/chloramines). I wouldn't get into RO water unless your goals change and you want to grow some of the extremely sensitive plants (Toninas, Erios, etc) or breed very sensitive fish.

My vote is to stuff your tank with as many plants as you can, use established filter media, and then STILL dose some ammonia and monitor your levels for a week to be sure your tank is cycled before you add fish- better safe than sorry. Or stock it VERY lightly after you add the plants with just 1-2 small fish, and only add a few more fish every other week or so.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

ponyo said:


> I read the article link. He says wait a few months before putting in your "real" plants but I'm wondering why can't I put in my aquascape and then just have the floating Hornwort to make it dense enough and after a few months take out the Hornwort?
> 
> One more question. I think my water is hard. How can I test to find out how hard it is and if I need to add RO water and how much RO water etc?


Are you referring to Tom Barr or Rex Griggs article? I don't know anyone whom has waited 3 months to add plants. Most put plants in and add water that has been treated with water conditioner. Best to put plastic over substrate and to fill to level half height of plants planting.
Pet stores will test your water for free. My tap water is 8.4. In time it decreases. I just added 2 gallon jugs distilled water to lower it. Was told adding dry oak leaves is the best thing to do.

lauraleellbp is an expert! I am still learning.


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## ponyo (Aug 9, 2010)

Thanks so much for everyone's help. I'll try to buy some hornwort.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

ponyo said:


> Thanks so much for everyone's help. I'll try to buy some hornwort.


 I get mine at Pet Smart. It is $3 for a big plant.


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## ponyo (Aug 9, 2010)

I have a new question and thought I'd keep asking it on this thread. 

My carbon filter material is pretty old now and covered in brown gunk (I believe that's the scientific term  ). I could just buy a replacement but I'm thinking, if I set up my new tank soon I want to put that filter on the new tank to help it cycle faster. So should I use the old media or should I buy new media? 

Thanks!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'd keep the old media if you want to use the filter to cycle the new tank. I wouldn't replace the media for at least 2 weeks after moving the filter, and I'd probably wait more like 4 weeks depending on the bioload in the new tank.


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## jargonchipmunk (Dec 8, 2008)

maybe he just wanted to sell you expensive plastic plants? That, or he's tried a planted tank and failed himself without the right guidance (the kind you'll find here in abundance).


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## ponyo (Aug 9, 2010)

Thanks!

So I learned my first lesson. I went to the LFS that said they had ordered me some anubias nana petite. Apparently to them anubias nana is equivilant with the petite version. ARGH. So now I have a plant I don't really want. 

I also went to petco and petsmart and neither had hornworth. They had just about nothing.


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## ponyo (Aug 9, 2010)

So the LFS gave me some floating plants that she thought was probably hornworth. Not very much of it though. So what should I do with these plants? I think I'll try to bleach dip thing with the floating plant because I didn't pay any money for it and won't be sorry if it doesn't make it. But I'm afraid to do it with the anubias. And then I was just going to stick them in my tank and fit it with a little bit of water. I have a full spectrum light--the kind of SAD so I thought I'd use that for them just for now until I can order a real light and the other plants come. 

I'm going to be too scared to bleach the other plants though. What do you guys do?


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## PinoyBoy (Mar 14, 2008)

ponyo said:


> Apparently to them anubias nana is equivilant with the petite version.


Petite has smaller leaves. The petites I used to have, their leaves where about the size of nickles and quarters at largest. But the nanas leaves (well atleast mine) are larger, smallest nana leaf that's not new growth is about the size of a kennedy half dollar.



ponyo said:


> So the LFS gave me some floating plants that she thought was probably hornworth.


Picture so we can identify it. Who knows, that thing could be more expensive than what you think it's worth.




ponyo said:


> I think I'll try to bleach dip thing with the floating plant because I didn't pay any money for it and won't be sorry if it doesn't make it. But I'm afraid to do it with the anubias.


If it has no algea/what ever then don't dip it. But incase you do, I think 1/20 solution is good I've heard and don't let it stay in for too long.




ponyo said:


> I'm going to be too scared to bleach the other plants though. What do you guys do?


Have another tank where you scape it with unbleached plants :icon_lol: I call it "quarantine" tank. And add some shrimps and BOOM! you got 2 tanks now. But one is "quarantine" so you don't have to feel too bad about it.


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## ponyo (Aug 9, 2010)

My fish are in my soon to be quarentine tank though  

I was being sarcastic about the anubias nana and the petite form. I wanted petite but they probably thought I wouldn't care or something. It's ok. I might look alright someplace. If it doesn't maybe I can try to trade it for another plant here. 

I guess I won't bleach. I'm sure the floating mass of whatever that is, has some algae on it--the tanks at the LFS didn't look all that clean. Granted, she had the anubias in one of the tanks, too but it just looks more healthy. 

I'll rinse 'em really well and call it good I guess. What you can't see won't hurt you (says the grad student who's studying molecular biology hee hee).


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## ponyo (Aug 9, 2010)

So my val and moss came today (I bought those from someone in the swap shop, he gave me lots extra and they look in great health). I planted those and tied the moss to the drift wood in various places.

Will the most fill out along the drift wood or should I buy enough moss to cover what I want covered from the beginning? 

I put in enough water to cover the roots of the plants and I misted everything but I'm still a little nervous about the moss that's up on the driftwood because it's not in the water. Will it be ok up there if I just keep misting it?

I'm going to order the light right now. Currently I just have my plain ol' aquarium light on the tank. I hope that will be ok until the real light comes. I planted the regular size anubias in front of the driftwood. If I don't like it when I've got everything done then I'll try to trade it here I guess. 

Thanks so much for everyone's help!


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## PinoyBoy (Mar 14, 2008)

I'm guessing you're going to do a dry start method of somekind? If so, saran wrap is your bff here, or whatever you want to use to cover the tank. It should stay moist enough so your moss won't end up looking like dried noodles.

ABout tying your moss to the driftwood... I guess it depends on what moss it is. If I wanted a whole wood covered in fissidens or mp or other slow growers, then I'd start with as much as I can (well that's just me) and if it's like flame moss or java/christmas/not so slow growers, then I'd start with whatever portion. But since you have extra, never hurts to put them all in ^^. I'd just save a small bit incase your moss in your dry-start tank do a little bit of dying on you. That or just add the moss when you fill the tank up with water or just put the moss in a small container of water for the time being. Up to you.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Well, keep us updated! I have wanted to do a dry start but thought it would take too long.


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## ponyo (Aug 9, 2010)

I found more info on the dry start method and I think I'm not going to try it with this tank. It sounds like it's more for ground cover plants. Tom Barr said he used it just for his ground cover and then when he was ready to add the water he added his other plants. I don't really have that option. 

Also, he said that when you go to fill up the tank it can shock them because they're going from a lot of available CO2 in the air to much less available CO2 in the water. To compensate you should add a lot of CO2 initially. Since I won't be adding CO2 this doesn't sound like it would work for me. 

So the next question is, do you think the plants will be ok, full submersed, with just my 1 florescent bulb until the real light comes in?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I say just fill it and run your light till you get the new one.


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## ponyo (Aug 9, 2010)

Thanks laura!

So I'm trying to figure out about the light and I'm a bit confused (what's new). Hilde I think said a T5NO would work for my plants and tank.

So I did some reading (why do I always get more confused when I read more? LOL) and one thing said you should go by LUX/SI and for low light a range of 12-17 L/SI was good.

Ok so I calculated the surface area of my tank and figured the total amount of LUX I need is in the range of 4410-6248 LUX. But then when I went to look at the bulbs on-line they don't give you the information about how much LUX the lights are. 

So I thought, well I go to the ol' 2 w/g for a low light tank rule and if I have a 35 gal tank then I need 70watts total right? But the T5NO is only a total of 36 watts (adding up both bulbs). 

Am I doing something totally wrong here?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Yeah- comparing apples and oranges LOL

It's extremely easy to get lost in all the techy-ness of lighting, especially as there are SOOO many different fixtures and fixture designs on the market, and soooo many different things factor into how much usable light actually makes it down to the bottom of any given tank (tank height, bulb shape, bulb arrangement (how far apart they are inside the fixture), reflector material and design, ballast efficiency, etc etc etc. It's really hard to start with generic "rules of thumb" any more and make sense out of it all. (Those "rules of thumb" used to work better back when the options were only T8, T12 and CF fixtures made by a limited # of manufacturers commonly available.)

Based on my own experience and the experience of many others with tanks in this size range, IMO the Coralife T5NO would be a good choice for your tank to obtain a low tech light level.


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## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

ponyo said:


> I found more info on the dry start method and I think I'm not going to try it with this tank. It sounds like it's more for ground cover plants. Tom Barr said he used it just for his ground cover and then when he was ready to add the water he added his other plants. I don't really have that option.
> 
> Also, he said that when you go to fill up the tank it can shock them because they're going from a lot of available CO2 in the air to much less available CO2 in the water. To compensate you should add a lot of CO2 initially. Since I won't be adding CO2 this doesn't sound like it would work for me.
> 
> So the next question is, do you think the plants will be ok, full submersed, with just my 1 florescent bulb until the real light comes in?


Looks like the plants you got are pretty easy and hardy. I think you will be fine with the light you have for a bit.


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## ponyo (Aug 9, 2010)

Ok thanks a lot. I'll order that one. 

I filled up the tank and had to battle the driftwood a bit because I got cocky and thought it's not going to float. ha ha ha. But now I have the tank filled, the plants where they're supposed to be and I'm soaking the driftwood so it'll sink. 

I'll need to buy a lot more moss since the kind I have is the fissidens (sp). And then I still need to buy the anubias nana petite and lileopsis mauritana (sp) Alreally the val looks nice in the tank though.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

ponyo said:


> So I did some reading (why do I always get more confused when I read more? LOL) and one thing said you should go by LUX/SI and for low light a range of 12-17 L/SI was good.
> 
> So I thought, well I go to the ol' 2 w/g for a low light tank rule. But the T5NO is only a total of 36 watts.


You want more info, which I don't understand check out threads by Hoppy. The wpg rule is based on T12 bulbs. 

I just look at other's aquarium,lauraleellbp's and JacobL's.
I got the coralife fixture, which lauraleellbp's has, for I got it at an auction for $13. The bulbs have great spectrums for plants. JacobL has a Solarmax which has better reflectors.

I have been experiment with Java and Xmass moss. The Xmass moss looks the best to create a wall. Perhaps you can get some here.


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## sus1000 (Sep 22, 2010)

HELLO ALL

First post from a new member. Just thought I would put my 50 pence worth in. 2 years ago I was given a 30 gal. No knowledge of planted aquariums. threw in son floora base (liked the look) some java fern, anubis, java mos and Hygro. Bottle CO2, 30 watt tube in reflector. I have had to keep taking excess palnts to lfs to this day. Just can't seem to kill them. Please don't listen to lfs. Get stuck into a good online community and you will love it. I have learned so much from just reading this forum, still am.

Good luck


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