# Substrate Choices Pros/Cons



## Daximus

I wish this had been around a few weeks ago! Very helpful. Glad I went the way I did though. 

Pardon my noobism, what is CEC?


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## TactusMortus

cation-exchange capacity in layman terms that is the amount of nutrients a soil is capable of storing.


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## Daximus

TactusMortus said:


> cation-exchange capacity in layman terms that is the amount of nutrients a soil is capable of storing.


Thanks...the acronyms around here can be overwhelming at times, lol. :icon_mrgr


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## TactusMortus

Come on I know someone else has to want to weigh in on this. I mean this forum has an awesome thread by Hoppy that breaks down your lighting choices and is a very valuable tool when it comes to setting up a new tank. Lets get the same thing going for substrates.


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## Patriot

Daximus said:


> I wish this had been around a few weeks ago! Very helpful. Glad I went the way I did though.
> 
> Pardon my noobism, what is CEC?


You don't have to call yourself a noob. Everyone starts off somewhere when learning. I try to learn something new everyday if I can help it. 

This post is very useful. On aquasoil shouldn't the ammonia leaking be a con also.


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## wkndracer

*imo*

Eco Complete Plant Substrate = Uniform Size? LOL 
They must have really messed up the screening machine on every bag of volcanic rock I was dumb enough to buy LOL. Let your tank go lean on ferts and I swear it comes with BBA spores imbedded in it because that's where I'll see it first. :hihi: bet you can tell I'm not really a fan huh?
The marketing and labeling; _"Contains all the necessary mineral nutrients for luxuriant aquarium plant growth PLUS beneficial bacteria to rapidly convert fish waste into natural food for your aquatic plants."_
I truly do not believe it based on how it DID NOT preform well beyond a few weeks. The above is quoted ad material. My biggest complaint is they're marketing plan. It holds plants well enough having weight to it but the ad gab really offends me because after using over a dozen bags of it in different tanks I just can't believe any of it to be true. It preforms almost on a par with Flourite Original in my experience.

Flourite Original Pros-Good CEC, is uniform in it's frag size and as far as a capping material for a soil tank it tops my list of those I've tried as the best to date. It has the weight Turface/Soil Master Select lack when used as a capping material.
Cons-the rinse needs to be very thorough and the fines lost or it can be a cloudy mess straight out of the bag. Marketing terms it as 'dust' but that is grossly understated (imo).

Miracle Grow Organic Potting Mix (NOT potting soil) The soil mixes I've seen all contain cow manure. The product will vary by region and also the season it is processed during. Whether screened to fines or not it seems to preform well as a base with predictable results. The gassing that is a concern is only during a brief period of transition to the stable submerged decay that provides CO2 via bacteria activity that lasts for the about the first year chewing through the organic materials releasing the mineral content for plant uptake. Easily handled in my experiences using it. 

Black Beauty or Black Diamond blasting media is another substrate option I'm using that is cost effective, inert, appears stable for long term use both as a capping material and in conjunction with root tablet supplements. Positive experiences to date based on about six months of use in two tanks.


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## TactusMortus

wkndracer said:


> Eco Complete Plant Substrate = Uniform Size? LOL
> They must have really messed up the screening machine on every bag of volcanic rock I was dumb enough to buy LOL. Let your tank go lean on ferts and I swear it comes with BBA spores imbedded in it because that's where I'll see it first. :hihi: bet you can tell I'm not really a fan huh?
> The marketing and labeling; _"Contains all the necessary mineral nutrients for luxuriant aquarium plant growth PLUS beneficial bacteria to rapidly convert fish waste into natural food for your aquatic plants."_
> I truly do not believe it based on how it DID NOT preform well beyond a few weeks. The above is quoted ad material. My biggest complaint is they're marketing plan. It holds plants well enough having weight to it but the ad gab really offends me because after using over a dozen bags of it in different tanks I just can't believe any of it to be true. It preforms almost on a par with Flourite Original in my experience.
> 
> Flourite Original Pros-Good CEC, is uniform in it's frag size and as far as a capping material for a soil tank it tops my list of those I've tried as the best to date. It has the weight Turface/Soil Master Select lack when used as a capping material.
> Cons-the rinse needs to be very thorough and the fines lost or it can be a cloudy mess straight out of the bag. Marketing terms it as 'dust' but that is grossly understated (imo).
> 
> Miracle Grow Organic Potting Mix (NOT potting soil) The soil mixes I've seen all contain cow manure. The product will vary by region and also the season it is processed during. Whether screened to fines or not it seems to preform well as a base with predictable results. The gassing that is a concern is only during a brief period of transition to the stable submerged decay that provides CO2 via bacteria activity that lasts for the about the first year chewing through the organic materials releasing the mineral content for plant uptake. Easily handled in my experiences using it.
> 
> Black Beauty or Black Diamond blasting media is another substrate option I'm using that is cost effective, inert, appears stable for long term use both as a capping material and in conjunction with root tablet supplements. Positive experiences to date based on about six months of use in two tanks.


Thanks, I have updated the original post to add a few of your additions.


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## Hoppy

Substrate fertilizing isn't essential with the inert substrates. Plants will grow well with or without substrate ferts, but then you have to be very consistent in following the dosing method you use, so you don't run out of any of them. With substrate fertilizing you can be more relaxed about dosing the water without worrying about the effect on the plants.

Fluval Stratum:
Pros: Loaded with nutrients, doesn't leach ammonia, good particle sizes, grows plants very well
Cons: Cost, has to be washed pretty well to avoid dust clouds when filling the tank.

ADA Aquasoil: 
Additional con: Leaches ammonia into the water for a couple of weeks or so, and needs big water changes, often, to get rid of the ammonia initially.
Additional pro: It holds slopes well compared to most substrates.


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## TactusMortus

Hoppy said:


> Substrate fertilizing isn't essential with the inert substrates. Plants will grow well with or without substrate ferts, but then you have to be very consistent in following the dosing method you use, so you don't run out of any of them. With substrate fertilizing you can be more relaxed about dosing the water without worrying about the effect on the plants.
> 
> Fluval Stratum:
> Pros: Loaded with nutrients, doesn't leach ammonia, good particle sizes, grows plants very well
> Cons: Cost, has to be washed pretty well to avoid dust clouds when filling the tank.
> 
> ADA Aquasoil:
> Additional con: Leaches ammonia into the water for a couple of weeks or so, and needs big water changes, often, to get rid of the ammonia initially.
> Additional pro: It holds slopes well compared to most substrates.


Thanks Hoppy I have added your additions and notes. Anyone else care to add any pros or cons?


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## TactusMortus

I know someone else wants to weigh in here!


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## somewhatshocked

Fluval Stratum isn't nutrient-rich. It's just dirt/clay. It will require the use of fertilizers to be nutrient-rich.

This has been discussed a ton on the forum but it's rather fragile and does _not_ need to be washed or rinsed.


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## Hoppy

somewhatshocked said:


> Fluval Stratum isn't nutrient-rich. It's just dirt/clay. It will require the use of fertilizers to be nutrient-rich.
> 
> This has been discussed a ton on the forum but it's rather fragile and does _not_ need to be washed or rinsed.


Fluval recommends gentle rinsing until the water runs clear. All ADA Aquasoil type substrates, and there are several now, are made from dirt/clay, and like MTS, they naturally contain substantial nutrients. I believe that they are deficient in potassium, but have no proof of that. I didn't find Stratum to be fragile. In fact after a year, when I had to tear down the tank, the particles were still hard and intact.


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## Daximus

TactusMortus said:


> I know someone else wants to weigh in here!


Give it time, lol, I have linked to this post at least 4 times this week instead of trying to explain all of this. It's a wonderful post...should be sticky if you ask me. :biggrin:


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## somewhatshocked

Hoppy said:


> Fluval recommends gentle rinsing until the water runs clear. All ADA Aquasoil type substrates, and there are several now, are made from dirt/clay, and like MTS, they naturally contain substantial nutrients. I believe that they are deficient in potassium, but have no proof of that. I didn't find Stratum to be fragile. In fact after a year, when I had to tear down the tank, the particles were still hard and intact.


It's definitely fragile in the sense that you can easily break it apart by putting it between two fingers. Maybe more so than Aquasoil, in my experience. Clay/soil products aren't like gravel or pumice in that they can and do easily break down under pressure or when replanting (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). As far as rinsing, though, there's no need to do it to cut down on cloudiness. Countless folks here on the forum can back that up. 

I use Fluval Stratum products pretty much exclusively at this point and I think saying the products contain substantial nutrients can be misleading. Especially if someone new is researching the product. Because it's definitely not a nutrient-rich substrate like ADA or Netlea. I don't get terrific growth unless I fertilize with the product. The packaging even recommends adding root tabs.

I'd also add as a pro: Fluval Stratum LOOKS nice. That's a plus. Reminds me of Aquasoil and Netlea and a greatly reduced price for the most part.


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## plantbrain

Yes, ADA As works nice etc.....but it also looks nice years later........which is the main reason I use it, the soil mud tanks will have the same nutrient content and profile as ADA if they use say Rice paddy clay loams...........but then the sand cap and uprooting etc, those can become issues but this is more to do with aesthetics and moving sediment, layering, and slopes etc.

As far as growth, there should be little differences.

Inert sediments are mostly if not entirely based on aesthetic considerations.
Perhaps weight/density for planting stems etc.


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## TactusMortus

Thanks you guys I have updated the original post. Keep the suggestions coming.


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## Aquaticz

In have been using a product called "Oil-Dri" which I think is similar to Turface for over one year now. 


Pros: It has a high CEC and can be pre fertilized. 
Best part ...lol... $7.00 for twenty five pounds!


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## TactusMortus

Aquaticz said:


> In have been using a product called "Oil-Dri" which I think is similar to Turface for over one year now.
> 
> 
> Pros: It has a high CEC and can be pre fertilized.
> Best part ...lol... $7.00 for twenty five pounds!


What do you mean it can be pre fertilized?


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## mordalphus

Do NOT rinse fluval stratum. I know the package says to, but if you do, the water will cloud for days. If you don't rinse, the water will clear up very quickly.

Also, a CON for MTS and miracle grow would be replanting stems, it can get really messy if you aren't careful


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## roadmaster

I have a low light 29 gal shrimp tank with bottom layer of Osmocote (about three table spoons) followed by approx one inch of top soil right out of the bag,then a layer of unscented clay cat litter (about one inch) ,followed by nylon mesh cut to fit inside diameter of tank and finally,, around two inches of Black Sand.
The nylon mesh prevent's sand from working it's way to bottom and also prevent's mixing of dirt with sand when re-planting or inserting new plant's.
I can feel the nylon mesh when inserting new plant's and don't get as much disturbance of dirt below.
Believe it also helps to have the cat litter on top of the dirt with regards to upsetting the mixture.
Has worked well so far with the shrimps and cardinal tetra's but tank is only a couple month's old.


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## TactusMortus

roadmaster said:


> I have a low light 29 gal shrimp tank with bottom layer of Osmocote (about three table spoons) followed by approx one inch of top soil right out of the bag,then a layer of unscented clay cat litter (about one inch) ,followed by nylon mesh cut to fit inside diameter of tank and finally,, around two inches of Black Sand.
> The nylon mesh prevent's sand from working it's way to bottom and also prevent's mixing of dirt with sand when re-planting or inserting new plant's.
> I can feel the nylon mesh when inserting new plant's and don't get as much disturbance of dirt below.
> Believe it also helps to have the cat litter on top of the dirt with regards to upsetting the mixture.
> Has worked well so far with the shrimps and cardinal tetra's but tank is only a couple month's old.


Glad that has worked for you Roadmaster seems like a lot of work though when you could just go with a substrate that has all the nutrients you need.


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## TactusMortus

mordalphus said:


> Do NOT rinse fluval stratum. I know the package says to, but if you do, the water will cloud for days. If you don't rinse, the water will clear up very quickly.
> 
> Also, a CON for MTS and miracle grow would be replanting stems, it can get really messy if you aren't careful


I will put a note about the fluval stratum, however I am not going to take the rinse off because the manufacture recommends it. I will add the note about replanting in MTS and Miracle Grow though.


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## roadmaster

TactusMortus said:


> Glad that has worked for you Roadmaster seems like a lot of work though when you could just go with a substrate that has all the nutrients you need.


Yes, I would like to try substrate such as ADA but it is not easily found here.
Everything I used with exception of nylon mesh ,I already had laying around.:icon_wink


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## somewhatshocked

TactusMortus said:


> I will put a note about the fluval stratum, however I am not going to take the rinse off because the manufacture recommends it.


Eco-Complete also claims to be a completely fertilized substrate - and it's not. (And CaribSea employees back that up)

What the manufacturer recommends isn't always best in practice. Occasionally, folks will get tips from ADA that it's find to add critters right after setting up a tank. While that may be okay in a super-heavily-planted-like-woah tank, it's not usually great in practice without tons of ammonia offing your fish/shrimp. 

This is a great list, though, and can definitely help people narrow down their options.


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## TactusMortus

somewhatshocked said:


> Eco-Complete also claims to be a completely fertilized substrate - and it's not. (And CaribSea employees back that up)
> 
> What the manufacturer recommends isn't always best in practice. Occasionally, folks will get tips from ADA that it's find to add critters right after setting up a tank. While that may be okay in a super-heavily-planted-like-woah tank, it's not usually great in practice without tons of ammonia offing your fish/shrimp.
> 
> This is a great list, though, and can definitely help people narrow down their options.


I see what your saying however the eco complete has been tested. I think the rinsing thing is a matter of opinion. However as you can see I still added a note on the original post.


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## somewhatshocked

Not trying to beat a dead horse, as I greatly appreciate what you're doing. 

Nearly everything on your list has been tested here on the forum. Fluval's product has for sure: here, here, here, here.

Hoppy's had great experience with it after rinsing and lots of others - particularly shrimpers (like mordalphus, the shrimp genius) - have not. So it's a good thing you added the note.

Oh - another pro for Eco-Complete: it's got a rough surface so smaller plants and mosses can latch on quickly.


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## TactusMortus

somewhatshocked said:


> Not trying to beat a dead horse, as I greatly appreciate what you're doing.
> 
> Nearly everything on your list has been tested here on the forum. Fluval's product has for sure: here, here, here, here.
> 
> Hoppy's had great experience with it after rinsing and lots of others - particularly shrimpers (like mordalphus, the shrimp genius) - have not. So it's a good thing you added the note.
> 
> Oh - another pro for Eco-Complete: it's got a rough surface so smaller plants and mosses can latch on quickly.


Thanks for pointing that out I will add your pro to eco complete.


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## galabar

I've been using Turface with success (so far). I like the look of it -- it looks like what I imagine the bottom of a river bed might look like and it is fairly easy to plant in. Also, after a short period of time it becomes "fertilized" by your fish (until then, you can use root tabs).


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## TactusMortus

galabar said:


> I've been using Turface with success (so far). I like the look of it -- it looks like what I imagine the bottom of a river bed might look like and it is fairly easy to plant in. Also, after a short period of time it becomes "fertilized" by your fish (until then, you can use root tabs).


Keep in galabar you still want to supplement with other ferts even if the turface is taking in enough nitrates it is likely lacking other key plant nutrients if you are not dosing anything.


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## Mxx

Could we add Estes Marine Sand/PermaColor Quartz to the list as well, and have some who have used it give some pros and cons? Reading other reviews such as here - http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?58647-Estes-marine-sand-review
it isn't silica based, (which supposedly is better for the fish's gills, which is a claim I question, but I also wonder whether it reduces diatom algae as a result compared to other sands). It's also supposedly quite clean straight out of the bag, is of a very good particle size, and is of relatively uniform particles which are more rounded than something like Moonsand or Black Beauty/Blastin Sand. 

I've used Flourite and Flourite Sand, which aren't great by themselves as they're inert, but after having been decently rinsed there was not a problem with cloudiness. 

I've also bought rigid nylon mesh to put over the MTS base which I'll be using next time and capped with black sand. And like the previous poster here, I'd heard it is very good for keeping the MTS from making a mess whenever some aquascaping maintenance is necessary.


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## psalm18.2

I love Estes black sand, no complaints here.


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## Naekuh

love this thread but its made me a lot more confused on what substrate to use next.. 


also aquasoil... doesnt that help buffer pH?
^ that was one of the reasons why i was considering using it as my next substrate... i have very hard water, and i wanted something to help buffer my pH. 

And is miracle grow considered like pete moss? or is laying floor with pete moss no longer used?

And if u were to use Root Tabs with a high CEC substrate, is it better then aquasoil and stratum? Or is it still missing stuff?


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## TactusMortus

Naekuh said:


> love this thread but its made me a lot more confused on what substrate to use next..
> 
> 
> also aquasoil... doesnt that help buffer pH?
> ^ that was one of the reasons why i was considering using it as my next substrate... i have very hard water, and i wanted something to help buffer my pH.
> 
> And is miracle grow considered like pete moss? or is laying floor with pete moss no longer used?
> 
> And if u were to use Root Tabs with a high CEC substrate, is it better then aquasoil and stratum? Or is it still missing stuff?


Awesome addition forgot to put on the Ph and hardness buffering that Aquasoil has.

Pete Moss is not as good as miracle grow when it comes to plant nutrients. It however does soften water as well though.

Using root tabs with a high cec substrate is about the same as using aquasoil and stratum. If cost wasn't a factor though aquasoil and stratrum would be the obvious first choice. All of these options will grow plants well though.


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## Hoppy

I believe ADA Aquasoil just lowers the pH, instead of buffering it. Buffering implies that any tank with Aquasoil would have nearly the same pH, whatever else was in the water. I'm not at all sure I am right about that though.

Any inert substrate, unless it also has a reasonably good CEC, is as good as any other, other than how it looks. I used to be convinced that black blasting grit was harmful to cory cats, but I recently learned that I was wrong about that, so it is just a different looking inert substrate. Now, Zeolite sand should be a lot better, because it does have a genuinely high CEC. It is ugly, but should be good for plants. (When I tried it, it didn't seem to be any better than pool filter sand, as far as the plants were concerned.)


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## Dgup

I think I will be going with some Fluval Stratum in my 14G because of this thread. I'll by layering it on top of an ADA AS and Fluorite mix. Wait, I got the prices mixed up. Aquasoil is cheaper?

For people I have talked to and in my own experience ADA AS Amazonia NEW lowers my pH from 7.8 to 6.8. Exactly one pH. Additionally the ADA website says it lowers KH which explains why my KH in my main tank is 0 (5KH tap to 0)
It leeched Ammonia heavily for 2 weeks, but after changing the water 80% every other day it was fine (0.25 or 0.5ppm)

Also I was wondering if some of the rockier substrates (Eco-Complete?) and certain sands leech silica / silicates which can allow diatom (brown algae) growth. Can clarify which types leech more?


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## TactusMortus

Thanks for the additions and corrections guys.


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## Hoppy

Silica sand doesn't leach silicates, because they are not soluble in water. The silica compounds that are water soluble are not a component of sand.


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## Dgup

Aquasoil does not seem to lower general hardness (GH), just KH.


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## Mxx

Hoppy said:


> Silica sand doesn't leach silicates, because they are not soluble in water. The silica compounds that are water soluble are not a component of sand.


Are we 100% sure about that? I'd read knowledgeable aquarists talking about how they believe either their glass or their sand is slowly leaching silica into their tank and feeding their diatom algae bloom. Sounded a little strange to me that something might be leaching from glass certainly, but that's what they'd been reporting. What would be the source for silica in that case? Silicon? Just fish food?


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## jerilovesfrogs

i've used fluval stratum twice. once i rinsed it, and once i didn't. the time i didn't rinse it, the tank was much clearer faster. idk why. just posting my experience. 

btw, can someone dispel the myth that eco-complete has everything plants need, and will feed them for many years..... i know a few people who think that it is truly complete, and you don't have to do anything else. my opinion is it is basically expensive junk, that is not actually complete in any way. thoughts?


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## TactusMortus

Dgup: I have heard several people say it lowers the general hardness maybe I misinterpreted. Does anyone else care to weigh in on if it in fact lowers general hardness or just kh?

Mxx: Not sure however would need more proof to add it to the cons list.

jerilovesfrogs: This is why it is stated in the original post to be lacking key plant nutrients.


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## dmattbfan5

Great thread! Just a comment, I started a new tank using fluval shrimp stratum about a month ago. Here's the journal link: 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/planted-nano-tanks/153115-dry-start-10-gal-iwagumi.html

I started to rinse the first of 3 4.4lb bags of this stuff with a fine mesh and it just disintegrated. I had tried to follow the directions (for once! go figure) and it was a complete disaster. I read so many posts about people having problems rinsing it. It doesnt just fall apart exactly, but it couldnt even withstand the pressure of me pouring water over it from about 3 inches away. I stopped rinsing and just added the rest straight to the tank. I haven't flooded it yet because I'm doing a dry start. As far as this stratum growing plants.... Well if you're newer to this like me, I haven't added a thing to it and I have a ton of new growth in just 2 weeks. Yes maybe I could have more, or could add iron and all kinds of fancy stuff but why? I don't want to waste money on something thats working as of now. The roots are spreading and there are a ton of new shoots branching off. If you want to buy a half dozen other nutrients to add to it then fine, be my guest, but my goal was to let other people on a budget know that you CAN in fact grow plants in fluval stratum without adding anything but water and light.


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## jerilovesfrogs

TactusMortus said:


> Dgup: I have heard several people say it lowers the general hardness maybe I misinterpreted. Does anyone else care to weigh in on if it in fact lowers general hardness or just kh?
> 
> Mxx: Not sure however would need more proof to add it to the cons list.
> 
> jerilovesfrogs: This is why it is stated in the original post to be lacking key plant nutrients.


i know it was stated eco is lacking...but how can i prove this to someone else? what is it lacking exactly. just saying to someone, who thinks it is gold, oh it is lacking in minerals...isn't going to convince them. ya know?


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## Dgup

jerilovesfrogs said:


> i know it was stated eco is lacking...but how can i prove this to someone else? what is it lacking exactly. just saying to someone, who thinks it is gold, oh it is lacking in minerals...isn't going to convince them. ya know?


Rotala doesn't even grow in my eco-complete tank, it just kind of survives :icon_lol:


TactusMortus said:


> Dgup: I have heard several people say it lowers the general hardness maybe I misinterpreted. Does anyone else care to weigh in on if it in fact lowers general hardness or just kh?


The ADA website specifically states KH and my one round of testing (take it for what you will) seems the same. The more people that can chime in the better. I could be the stem plants eating the KH + the AS doing it's job. I don't have a control, so, take it for what you will.

---

v Filtered Tap water (100% tap in both tanks)


Code:


     pH   Ammonia   Nitrites   Nitrate   GH   KH       
     7.8     0         0.0        0      8   5

v 10G Main planted tank. Decently planted with stems. 30 Endlers. 10 RCS. 40G HOB filter. Flourite and Aquasoil mixture (leeched ammonia before putting it in)


Code:


     pH   Ammonia   Nitrites   Nitrate   GH   KH       
     6.8     0         0.5       10      8.5   0

v 10G RCS tank. 30 RCS, small 10G HOB filter. Eco Complete. 2 small lava rocks. Moss, few stem plants.


Code:


     pH   Ammonia   Nitrites   Nitrate   GH   KH       
     8.0     0          0       100      11   5.5


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## Hoppy

Mxx said:


> Are we 100% sure about that? I'd read knowledgeable aquarists talking about how they believe either their glass or their sand is slowly leaching silica into their tank and feeding their diatom algae bloom. Sounded a little strange to me that something might be leaching from glass certainly, but that's what they'd been reporting. What would be the source for silica in that case? Silicon? Just fish food?


If you look up a lot of water company water quality reports, you will see that a fairly high percentage show silicon compounds in the water. I suspect that is where most of it comes from. But, I am about as sure as I ever get that silica, silica sand, and glass are all completely non-soluble in tap water. Water coming from natural hot springs might be a different story, but I doubt it.


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## Hoppy

jerilovesfrogs said:


> i know it was stated eco is lacking...but how can i prove this to someone else? what is it lacking exactly. just saying to someone, who thinks it is gold, oh it is lacking in minerals...isn't going to convince them. ya know?


It lacks nitrates, phosphates and potassium. It may have significant trace elements, but I doubt that it is a complete menu of trace elements. I'm not even sure why they make the statements they do make, unless it was thought back when EC first came out, that aquatic plants don't need fertilizing. It has been around for quite a long time.


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## jerilovesfrogs

thanks hoppy =]


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## Mannie Bothans

What is Netlea, and what are its pros and cons?


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## TactusMortus

From my understanding it is not available in the states but it is something similar to aquasoil. I will let someone else chime in though who knows for sure.


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## somewhatshocked

Hoppy: CaribSea says it is inert and contains no significant minerals for plant uptake. (I still use it for looks)

Mannie: It is, indeed, a soil that's similar to the ADA products. Lots of shrimpers use it in Asia. Occasionally available in the states but there's no big importer to get it easily.


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## Naekuh

Guys question..

i have Eco Complete and i cant for the life get the PH to drop.

Is there any chance Eco complete with CEC is somehow taking the Ca+ ions from my hard water, and continuously buffering my water so i cant drop pH?

i was reading on this forum, and its not just me with pH problems with Eco Complete.

And i know its been hashed that Eco Complete is Inert, but im wondering... is it possible for the CEC to pick up Ca+ and buffer your water so you cant dent your pH without a massive amount of water change?


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## TactusMortus

Naekuh said:


> Guys question..
> 
> i have Eco Complete and i cant for the life get the PH to drop.
> 
> Is there any chance Eco complete with CEC is somehow taking the Ca+ ions from my hard water, and continuously buffering my water so i cant drop pH?
> 
> i was reading on this forum, and its not just me with pH problems with Eco Complete.
> 
> And i know its been hashed that Eco Complete is Inert, but im wondering... is it possible for the CEC to pick up Ca+ and buffer your water so you cant dent your pH without a massive amount of water change?


You would most likely be better served to start up a thread asking this question then you would posting your question here.


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## DarkCobra

Great summary!

Soilmaster hasn't been manufactured in years. Probably safe to take it off the list.

According to the manufacturers of Turface, their natural color is used in two other products which may be easier to find locally.

Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil is 100% Turface. I use this in one of my tanks.

PondCare Aquatic Planting Media is at least mostly Turface. The MSDS also lists 5% graded sand. Some pictures appear to be pure Turface. Others show white particles, which seem rather coarse for sand, and present at more than 5%. I don't know anyone who's used it.


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## Java Moss

I'm gonna invent the perfect substrate...because the rest have too many costs, catches and snags. 

It's smooth surface, ample weight, contains all the micros and macros and is thoroughly rinsed before packaging. $15 for a 20LB bag. 

Fast forward 1 year from now: Weird looking chumps contracted by Seachem and Caribsea got my location information from my Petsmart card. Time to go underground before I end up like Joe Pesci getting whupped by Derrick O'Connor. 


Ugh...I need to lessen my coffee intake before posting.


----------



## TactusMortus

Java Moss said:


> I'm gonna invent the perfect substrate...because the rest have too many costs, catches and snags.
> 
> It's smooth surface, ample weight, contains all the micros and macros and is thoroughly rinsed before packaging. $15 for a 20LB bag.
> 
> Fast forward 1 year from now: Weird looking chumps contracted by Seachem and Caribsea got my location information from my Petsmart card. Time to go underground before I end up like Joe Pesci getting whupped by Derrick O'Connor.
> 
> 
> Ugh...I need to lessen my coffee intake before posting.


I have considered the same thing you are talking about here. If someone were able to make an aquasoil alternative at half the cost. They would sell a LOT of there substrate!


----------



## TactusMortus

DarkCobra said:


> Great summary!
> 
> Soilmaster hasn't been manufactured in years. Probably safe to take it off the list.
> 
> According to the manufacturers of Turface, their natural color is used in two other products which may be easier to find locally.
> 
> Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil is 100% Turface. I use this in one of my tanks.
> 
> PondCare Aquatic Planting Media is at least mostly Turface. The MSDS also lists 5% graded sand. Some pictures appear to be pure Turface. Others show white particles, which seem rather coarse for sand, and present at more than 5%. I don't know anyone who's used it.


Thanks I will remove soilmaster from the list and add the others.!


----------



## DarkCobra

Java Moss said:


> I'm gonna invent the perfect substrate...because the rest have too many costs, catches and snags.


Tell me about it. I even experimented with changing Turface's color. Did it successfully on small samples, but the chemicals involved are too scary to do it on any useful amount.


----------



## TactusMortus

We can all dream!


----------



## TactusMortus

Anyone else have any more substrate additions? Should I add normal aquarium gravel to this list? Or can I assume most people know the pros and cons of it in a planted tank situation?


----------



## Mxx

TactusMortus said:


> Anyone else have any more substrate additions? Should I add normal aquarium gravel to this list? Or can I assume most people know the pros and cons of it in a planted tank situation?


Definitely add it, as it seems many people do not seem to know its shortcomings. 

How much did you want to expand this, did you want to go into detailing some different variations of MTS?

Or add a discussion of using these substrates in combinations, such as a capping substrate over soil?

By the way, is flourite sand light compared to the others? My hairgrass got pulled out by my fauna, and I was thinking a heavier substrate might have helped to prevent that.


----------



## Bannik

Flourite black/red

Pros: Looks good, easy to plant due to shape and weight, if you dose excel you should never have to add any additional iron supplement.
Cons: Cost, and due to iron content care should be used when using a magnetic glass cleaner or you may scratch glass.

Additional cons for Fluval Stratum. Can not be combined with any other substrate and due to light weight it is easily agitated so you have to take great care with cleaning and water changes.

Additional con for Eco-Complete: Due to lightness and irregular particle size it is hard to create mounds, hills and valleys.

Baked clay kitty litter (no additives)
Pros: inexpensive, weight and texture is easy to plant and easy to aquascape
Cons: takes a bit of label reading/research. Not as attractive as Flourite, black sand, or Eco Complete.

Pea Gravel:
Pros: Cost, large granule size is good at preventing cyano bacteria, easy to aquascape and clean.
Cons: eliminates a lot of options for foreground plants, root tabs don't work as well.


----------



## Hoppy

Bannik said:


> Flourite black/red
> 
> Pros: Looks good, easy to plant due to shape and weight, if you dose excel you should never have to add any additional iron supplement.


How does Excel have any effect on iron? It doesn't contain iron.


> Cons: Cost, and due to iron content care should be used when using a magnetic glass cleaner or you may scratch glass.


Are you sure that Flourite is magnetic? Iron oxides present in clay are not magnetic, to the best of my knowledge.


> Additional cons for Fluval Stratum. Can not be combined with any other substrate and due to light weight it is easily agitated so you have to take great care with cleaning and water changes.


This was not my experience. I combined it with MTS, with no problems. The fine particle MTS just settled to the bottom, remaining a separate layer. And I never had a problem with cleaning or water changes.


> Additional con for Eco-Complete: Due to lightness and irregular particle size it is hard to create mounds, hills and valleys.
> 
> Baked clay kitty litter (no additives)
> Pros: inexpensive, weight and texture is easy to plant and easy to aquascape
> Cons: takes a bit of label reading/research. Not as attractive as Flourite, black sand, or Eco Complete.
> 
> Pea Gravel:
> Pros: Cost, large granule size is good at preventing cyano bacteria, easy to aquascape and clean.


 How does large particle size prevent cyano bacteria? I usually get it when sunlight hits the tank, starting it in the substrate right at the glass.


> Cons: eliminates a lot of options for foreground plants, root tabs don't work as well.


----------



## Dgup

Hoppy said:


> How does Excel have any effect on iron? It doesn't contain iron.


I dug out my Excel bottle just for you! I remembered reading something on the label which he might be talking about.



> Flourish Excel™ also has iron reducing properties which promote the ferrous state of iron (Fe+2), which is more easily utilized by plants than ferric iron (Fe+3).


Can you tell me what this means? I don't really understand it. :icon_mrgr


----------



## Bahugo

Hoppy said:


> Are you sure that Flourite is magnetic? Iron oxides present in clay are not magnetic, to the best of my knowledge.


I have had Flourite stick too my magnetic suction cup, and some other things. Granted it is not alot (if I went over it with a magnet I wouldn't pull all the substrate up) but there are definitely magnetic pieces in Flourite.


----------



## TactusMortus

Alright made a few updates to the original post. Thanks for additions you guys. Also lets try to keep the additions and comments to a minimum unless we have proof. As I want to keep this to facts and not just opinions. So we can keep it as accurate as possible.


----------



## Danimals

I just tried using FSS without rinsing the substrate at all and dumping straight from the bag. I guess I'll have to eat my words as my water's crystal clear, literally 0 cloudiness.

I snake the garden hose in thru my window and use the top of an airtight container to disperse the water going in.

Here's a pic of my Ebi 2 minutes after filling it with water and plugging in the filter.


----------



## TactusMortus

That is clear! I don't think I would wash the stuff with results like that. I wonder why they even recommend rinsing.


----------



## mordalphus

Dgup said:


> I dug out my Excel bottle just for you! I remembered reading something on the label which he might be talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you tell me what this means? I don't really understand it. :icon_mrgr



It chelates iron, meaning it converts it into a more usable form for plants. It does not have any iron in it.


----------



## Jaguar

Hagen GEO System Pacific Gravel #2 (actually sand)

Pros: doesn't compact, easy to plant in, holds slopes well, not stark white like silica sand, looks very natural

Either way: acts as a pH buffer

Cons: light colored so hard to clean, pricy ($20 for 20 lbs.), some random black/red granules, needs thoroughly rinsed

I love the consistency and color of this stuff but I'm ditching it because it's so hard to clean and I get massive amounts of mulm built up on it.


----------



## TactusMortus

Thanks for the addition Jaguar!

Anyone want to chime in and make up some pros and cons for bonsai soil I see a few people using it on here. I don't want to come up with pros and cons as I don't know much about it. Also anyone using netlea is it?!?


----------



## FromLaredo

I have used aquariumplants.com substrate in my 46 gallon for over 3 years without any issues. (i have no affiliation with the website) 
Thing i like best it that it maintains it shape and firmness so replanting is easy and there in no cloudiness.
The only thing i am not crazy about is the moldy growth between the front glass and the substrate but i am not sure if this is normal. I think this may just be due to alot of remaining hairgrass roots, not sure.


----------



## plantbrain

mordalphus said:


> It chelates iron, meaning it converts it into a more usable form for plants. It does not have any iron in it.


It's got a 1/2 life of less than 11 hours, and is 100% gone in 24 hours in aquariums. Not much use there. ETDA is about the same for typical alkalinity.


----------



## plantbrain

FromLaredo said:


> I have used aquariumplants.com substrate in my 46 gallon for over 3 years without any issues. (i have no affiliation with the website)
> Thing i like best it that it maintains it shape and firmness so replanting is easy and there in no cloudiness.
> The only thing i am not crazy about is the moldy growth between the front glass and the substrate but i am not sure if this is normal. I think this may just be due to alot of remaining hairgrass roots, not sure.


You can cut a strip of sod and then use a plastic paint scraper etc to pull back the soil etc..........this will keep that front edge clean over time and provide a nice looking sod to sell.


----------



## plantbrain

Steve Teban has some excellent soil links for further background.

http://home.infinet.net/teban/substrat.htm

Since 1995


----------



## FromLaredo

Thanks Tom
Now i have my Sunday reading, beats the NY Times.


----------



## 150EH

TM, I like your thread on substrates but as a Flourite Red (the ugliest color) user I think the pros & cons need adjustment.

Pro: it lasts for every as still has good cec properties after 7 years in my 150 gallon, so it's not depleted like ADA AS after two years nor does it turn to mush. Flourite also has two better colors now, brown and black.

Con: I think this should be adjusted, If you are starting your tank proper Flourite does not need to be rinsed at all and I think rinsing out all the fine particles is a mistake with any substrate, rather you should include proper ways to fill a new tank , take a look at how this member fills his tank without any sediment floating at all. However like most substrates if you dump a bag into a full tank you going to have sediment free floating in the water for a couple of days, but it should really never be added in the manner.

There also another high CEC soil that is new to me but being used in the aquarium, Akadama is very much like Flourite as it is a volcanic clay but not baked, so it has high CEC properties but is softish after it gets wet and also has a strangely fast settling sediment look on Youtube.

Also Netlea is another ADA like soil that is being used by our members to the north in Canada due to availablity you should check this one too. If your going to be in the "Sticky Hall of Fame"u gotta put in the work, it could be wise to group them in catagories, clay bases, soil based, sand to make it easier to find or understand the types of substrate.


----------



## plantbrain

FromLaredo said:


> Thanks Tom
> Now i have my Sunday reading, beats the NY Times.


Steve's pages are good, but take every and anything with a little common sense and a salt.

Much of the suggestions are old.........and may or may not apply to what's been shown today. 

It's funny so many top scapers were anti soil back then.
Amano included.


----------



## TactusMortus

150EH said:


> TM, I like your thread on substrates but as a Flourite Red (the ugliest color) user I think the pros & cons need adjustment.
> 
> Pro: it lasts for every as still has good cec properties after 7 years in my 150 gallon, so it's not depleted like ADA AS after two years nor does it turn to mush. Flourite also has two better colors now, brown and black.
> 
> Con: I think this should be adjusted, If you are starting your tank proper Flourite does not need to be rinsed at all and I think rinsing out all the fine particles is a mistake with any substrate, rather you should include proper ways to fill a new tank , take a look at how this member fills his tank without any sediment floating at all. However like most substrates if you dump a bag into a full tank you going to have sediment free floating in the water for a couple of days, but it should really never be added in the manner.
> 
> There also another high CEC soil that is new to me but being used in the aquarium, Akadama is very much like Flourite as it is a volcanic clay but not baked, so it has high CEC properties but is softish after it gets wet and also has a strangely fast settling sediment look on Youtube.
> 
> Also Netlea is another ADA like soil that is being used by our members to the north in Canada due to availablity you should check this one too. If your going to be in the "Sticky Hall of Fame"u gotta put in the work, it could be wise to group them in catagories, clay bases, soil based, sand to make it easier to find or understand the types of substrate.


Hah, I am not really looking to be in the Sticky Hall of Fame. I just know that this would have been extremely helpful when I was picking out a substrate. I will add Akadama & Netlea when I have time to do a bit of research. Or if anyone else is more knowledgeable about these please feel free to make up the pros and cons.


----------



## DarkCobra

Hate to say it just after having you add it, but... After trying to locate some more Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil without success, I called Schultz up directly. And found out that it's been discontinued.


----------



## TactusMortus

I will leave it up for now but thanks for the update.


----------



## TactusMortus

Anyone using Upaqua? or Azoo?


----------



## Jedi940

First, I'd like to say that this thread has been extremely helpful in helping me learn what substrates are out there. I currently have a gravel tank that has been up for about a month and a half and I am considering making it a planted tank so I'll need a better substrate. 

One thing I think would be helpful would be an idea of how long each substrate lasts. I would like a tank tat I have to put minimal effort into as in no water changes and minimal ferts. So as I am considering all the different substrates that have all or most of the appropriate ferts, I would like to know how long they last before i have to start dosing them myself. This is a big selling point to me.


----------



## diwu13

Just read through this and it really should be a sticky! Very helpful and interesting read.

I've been using Flourite regular without any rinsing and it only had minimal clouding of my water. Stayed cloudy one day and cleared right up without any filter, just had the bubbler on.


----------



## Realistik84

Here is an interesting Matrix that compares the content of the different Seachem substrates:

I dont know what all of this means? Can someone knowledgeable define the different categories, and their respective benefits to the ecosystem?
http://www.seachem.com/support/GravelMineralComposition.pdf


Also great job - I was thinking about doing a Sand in my 65G, but after reading this think I will stick to Flourite...just a question of flourite sand or regualr?


----------



## jone

Would love to know some opinions too from the Gurus...


Realistik84 said:


> Here is an interesting Matrix that compares the content of the different Seachem substrates:
> 
> I dont know what all of this means? Can someone knowledgeable define the different categories, and their respective benefits to the ecosystem?
> http://www.seachem.com/support/GravelMineralComposition.pdf
> 
> 
> Also great job - I was thinking about doing a Sand in my 65G, but after reading this think I will stick to Flourite...just a question of flourite sand or regualr?


----------



## Hoppy

Just remember that these substrates are essentially insoluble rocks. It makes little difference what elements are in them, since those elements are not bioavailable. An exception would be for calcium and magnesium, if the "rocks" are carbonates. Those are soluble, but just barely. The nutrients needed by plants the most, nitrogen, potassium, phosphorous and carbon are not in those substrates in an available form.

Onyx Sand looks like it may have a lot of dolomite in it, but Seachem says it doesn't alter the water parameters, so maybe it doesn't.


----------



## sayurasem

How come Fluval Stratum doesn't have key ingredients like aquasoil?


----------



## Realistik84

Hoppy said:


> Just remember that these substrates are essentially insoluble rocks. It makes little difference what elements are in them, since those elements are not bioavailable. An exception would be for calcium and magnesium, if the "rocks" are carbonates. Those are soluble, but just barely. The nutrients needed by plants the most, nitrogen, potassium, phosphorous and carbon are not in those substrates in an available form.
> 
> Onyx Sand looks like it may have a lot of dolomite in it, but Seachem says it doesn't alter the water parameters, so maybe it doesn't.


So even though these are loaded with nutrients, they are insoluble and therefore Flourite is really not any better that an Inert substrate such as Sand. 

I guess I am still confused, what is the benefit of a Flourite over a sand then if any? :icon_ques:icon_conf:icon_ques (beisdes appearance)


----------



## nilocg

Im not sure if it has been mentioned, but what about Akadama? It buffers the water well like aquasoil, doesnt leach ammonia, and is high in CEC. Cons could be that it lacks nutrients(which could actually be a Pro if used in shrimp tanks).


----------



## Hoppy

Realistik84 said:


> So even though these are loaded with nutrients, they are insoluble and therefore Flourite is really not any better that an Inert substrate such as Sand.
> 
> I guess I am still confused, what is the benefit of a Flourite over a sand then if any? :icon_ques:icon_conf:icon_ques (beisdes appearance)


Flourite has a reasonable CEC, so it is better than quartz sand or other rocks that have a very low CEC if any. And, it is a uniform color, where sand can be a variety of colors. And, for Flourite Black or Dark, you get dark colors that can make the fish and plants look better.


----------



## m00se

Realistik84 said:


> So even though these are loaded with nutrients, they are insoluble and therefore Flourite is really not any better that an Inert substrate such as Sand.
> 
> I guess I am still confused, what is the benefit of a Flourite over a sand then if any? :icon_ques:icon_conf:icon_ques (beisdes appearance)


This might help to make this a bit clearer:

http://home.infinet.net/teban/jamie.htm

For me, it means that I dose Osmocote Plus in 00 gel caps to keep root feeders happy. I use Black Diamond blasting sand (20/40). I used to use Flourite. It's a good substrate but I didn't want to spend the money on it for the tank I currently have. I prefer the Black Diamond over the Flourite for the aesthetics, and price. Hope this helps.


----------



## The Gipper

Wish I read this before I just posted a thread on using ADA AS and asking if it leaches nitrate or ammonia into water. Great thread. 

What about some info on Up AS


----------



## Nate McFin

Realistik84 said:


> So even though these are loaded with nutrients, they are insoluble and therefore Flourite is really not any better that an Inert substrate such as Sand.
> 
> I guess I am still confused, what is the benefit of a Flourite over a sand then if any? :icon_ques:icon_conf:icon_ques (beisdes appearance)


 Flourite is better than sand because it has a very high cation exchange capacity while sand has a very low cation exchange capacity. This means that it has the ability to absorb nutrients from the water column, making it available to plant roots. Sand has little, to no ability to do that.


----------



## Alyssa

TactusMortus said:


> *Flourite Regular/Sand-*
> Pros-High CEC For Regular, Appearance, Uniform Size
> Cons-Cost, Lacks Key Plant Nutrients, Lots of Rinsing, Possible magnetic pieces (could scratch glass when using magnetic cleaner)


How prevalent is the whole magnetic pieces thing? I just bought a big bag of this stuff and I really don't want to open it if I will have trouble with it!


----------



## somewhatshocked

If you fear magnetic particles, then spread it out in a thin layer and run a magnet over it a few times to remove any pieces.


----------



## Realistik84

Alyssa said:


> How prevalent is the whole magnetic pieces thing? I just bought a big bag of this stuff and I really don't want to open it if I will have trouble with it!


I used Flourite with a gravel topoff on my 29Gall Biocube. I use a Mag-Float type magnet (Assuming you know what I mean) and never have any issues...


----------



## 150EH

TactusMortus said:


> Hah, I am not really looking to be in the Sticky Hall of Fame. I just know that this would have been extremely helpful when I was picking out a substrate. I will add Akadama & Netlea when I have time to do a bit of research. Or if anyone else is more knowledgeable about these please feel free to make up the pros and cons.


It's a very useful thread and should be a sticky.

I just used Fluval Stratum for the first time in a Nano shrimp tank, it is extremely light soil and will move from the slightest current so I would not reccomend any fish with this substrate. Some how the plants do stay planted and I did NOT rinse it but cover it with news paper and then a paper plate where the stream of water hit, after it was full I removed everything at a snails pace and the water was clear with a slight suface film, I do not rinse any substrate and think it's a waste. It buffers the water with lower pH, kH, & gH so shrimp should love it.


----------



## 150EH

Alyssa said:


> How prevalent is the whole magnetic pieces thing? I just bought a big bag of this stuff and I really don't want to open it if I will have trouble with it!


As far as I know after 8 years of use this is a complete myth.


----------



## sayurasem

150EH said:


> It's a very useful thread and should be a sticky.
> 
> I just used Fluval Stratum for the first time in a Nano shrimp tank, it is extremely light soil and will move from the slightest current so I would not reccomend any fish with this substrate. Some how the plants do stay planted and I did NOT rinse it but cover it with news paper and then a paper plate where the stream of water hit, after it was full I removed everything at a snails pace and the water was clear with a slight suface film, I do not rinse any substrate and think it's a waste. It buffers the water with lower pH, kH, & gH so shrimp should love it.



quick question here, if I use RO water + fluval stratum, does the substrate still "buffer" even tho KH/ GH is low already? or I need to raise up my water manually?


----------



## somewhatshocked

Please remember that these are just opinions, folks, and that tons of us keep all kinds of critters with Fluval Stratum.

I have tons of active fish with the Stratum and have had no problems. Even have Endlers that will dig and dig and there's never an issue. Also use the substrate in high-flow tanks and it also stays put.

But if you're worried about movement or things getting kicked up, be sure to grow carpeting plants in for a few weeks before flooding your tank. You'll have fewer issues.



150EH said:


> I just used Fluval Stratum for the first time in a Nano shrimp tank, it is extremely light soil and will move from the slightest current so I would not reccomend any fish with this substrate.


----------



## AnniePN

Sorry if I missed this somehow, but I don't see CaribSea floramax listed, is this the same as another substrate for comparison purposes?


----------



## Realistik84

m00se said:


> This might help to make this a bit clearer:
> 
> http://home.infinet.net/teban/jamie.htm
> 
> For me, it means that I dose Osmocote Plus in 00 gel caps to keep root feeders happy. I use Black Diamond blasting sand (20/40). I used to use Flourite. It's a good substrate but I didn't want to spend the money on it for the tank I currently have. I prefer the Black Diamond over the Flourite for the aesthetics, and price. Hope this helps.


I am strongly considering Miracle Grow Organic Potting Mix capped with Black Diamond Blasting Sand as a cap. I am NOT spending $120 on Flourtie LOL...

I have never used Gel Caps, are they similar to Pond Tabs?


----------



## m00se

00 gel caps on ebay for a pittance

Osmocote Plus - a little more difficult to find locally but 4.5 lbs was about $18.

Fill the gel caps with Osmocote and push them into the substrate under/around your root feeders.


----------



## falcooo

Realistik84 said:


> I am strongly considering Miracle Grow Organic Potting Mix capped with Black Diamond Blasting Sand as a cap. I am NOT spending $120 on Flourtie LOL...
> 
> I have never used Gel Caps, are they similar to Pond Tabs?


But with the MGOPM you wouldn't really need gel caps....right? wouldn't the dirt provide the nutrients here???


----------



## DogFish

falcooo said:


> But with the MGOPM you wouldn't really need gel caps....right? wouldn't the dirt provide the nutrients here???


Correct, that is the idea of the "dirt", no need to use root caps.


----------



## nelson_crn

What about Elos Terra? I haven't used it myself but might start since its one of the only substrates I can easily find in this area. Well, that's not entirely true...there are several substrates sold here but most are so ridiculously light that my aquascape gets rearranged every time someone slams a door.


----------



## audioaficionado

I'm thinking of going above the Lost Creek Dam on the Rogue River and finding some mostly basaltic river gravel/sand to try out. Won't be black, but might look OK brown/gray when wet.


----------



## Mean Harri

My first ever planted tank I used Eco Complete. I don't see the complaints as valid. It works great. Any algae issues I would suspect as being operator error. An imbalance of some kind.

I also have a question. People list the ammonia leech of Aquasoil as a con. Plants intake, consume ammonia. So what's the problem with ammonia leeching for a week or two? It's plant food.


----------



## Steve001

Mean Harri said:


> My first ever planted tank I used Eco Complete. I don't see the complaints as valid. It works great. Any algae issues I would suspect as being operator error. An imbalance of some kind.
> 
> I also have a question. People list the ammonia leech of Aquasoil as a con. Plants intake, consume ammonia. So what's the problem with ammonia leeching for a week or two? It's plant food.


Ammonia isn't a plant food. It first has to be converted to ammonium which can be accomplished when the ph is acid. An easy way to do this is through co2 injection.


----------



## sayurasem

Steve001 said:


> Ammonia isn't a plant food. It first has to be converted to ammonium which can be accomplished when the ph is acid. An easy way to do this is through co2 injection.


Maybe cons for cycling? Perhaps the main reason is for "fishless" cycling, amonia is distributed from substrate in order to supply the good bacteria in the first two weeks.

So the point is you dont have to "seed" anything like fish food, dead shrimp, etc. for your amonia source.


----------



## Hoppy

Ammonia is a little like CO2, in that when you put it in the water part of it becomes ammonium, part remains as dissolved ammonia, depending on the pH of the water. And the same is true of ammonium - part converts to ammonia and part remains as ammonia, depending on the pH of the water. I believe Aquasoil starts out with lots of ammonium, but once in the water, that changes to a mix of both ammonia and ammonium.

Farmers use gaseous ammonia to fertilize their crops, so it is a usable source of nitrogen, and a good one. They also use ammonium nitrate powder as a fertilizer.


----------



## Steve001

Hoppy said:


> Ammonia is a little like CO2, in that when you put it in the water part of it becomes ammonium, part remains as dissolved ammonia, depending on the pH of the water. And the same is true of ammonium - part converts to ammonia and part remains as ammonia, depending on the pH of the water. I believe Aquasoil starts out with lots of ammonium, but once in the water, that changes to a mix of both ammonia and ammonium.
> 
> Farmers use gaseous ammonia to fertilize their crops, so it is a usable source of nitrogen, and a good one. They also use ammonium nitrate powder as a fertilizer.


Partially true. Once applied the ammonia combines with water and turns into ammonium.


----------



## allaboutfish

what about caribeasea floramax?


----------



## sayurasem

allaboutfish said:


> what about caribeasea floramax?


Its just a high CEC substrate. works best with root caps.


----------



## Willran

This is very useful. You should make it into a spreadsheet and sticky.


----------



## Daximus

I'm bumping this monthly until it's a sticky of someone in green tells me to stop, lol.


----------



## Philia

*Yes, sticky! And some suggestions...*

Totally agree about this being a sticky! I'm thinking about substrate right now and this is REALLY helpful. 

I hate to be all "here are some things you should add" without actually _having_ info to add; I'm new and don't know much yet. BUT ... I'm going to suggest away anyway, because hey, this list should be a sticky, and it would be awesome to have a really comprehensive quick reference, and I figure that as a newbie, I probably have a better sense of what "substrate for idiots" might include than you more knowledgeable people. So here are my thoughts:

--Re: questions about FloraMax, etc., maybe include some popular brand or "sold as" names after generic names, like
*Flourite Regular/Sand* (FloraMax, ___, ___)​Same with Black Diamond, Onyx, etc. (can you tell I like black?) This might be a PITA to do, but I think it'd save time in the long run because if it's a sticky, people will keep piping in with "what about ___?"

--Maybe add more to the refs at the top, where CEC and inert are defined? One term I'd suggest defining is "lacking in key plant nutrients." I think someone asked about that. Other things: 
Newbies don't know the meaning/implications of "must be topped": potentially leaches into the water column? must be weighted down by denser material so it doesn't float around in the water? 
Maybe quickly address pros/cons of substrate characteristics _in general_ that affect things like cleanability; plant-ability; requires rinsing or especially hard to rinse; "stay-put-ness" in scaping; compacting; tendency to trap bad bacteria or gas (maybe the same as compacting? I don't know these things.) I'm picturing something like:
"In general:
--smaller particles tend to X, Y, and Z, while bigger particles tend to A, B, and C
--inert substrates tend to X, Y, and Z, while ..."​But I don't even know the very general rules (probably why I think they'd be helpful, lol).​
--Organization of list? Maybe alphabetically overall by brand name, or groupified by price range, specialized substrates vs. generic or repurposed substances (kitty litter, blasting sand)? 

--Add consideration of livestock? The things I can think of are 

1. whether substrates contain chemicals harmful to fish or inverts. Ammonia leaching is included, but ... I feel like there must be substrates that are bad for shrimp or something. (I know I sound really clueless when I say that, but that's partly my point.) and

2. issues related to bottom-feeders/diggers. I was recently hunting for info about substrates that work well with corys. EcoComplete's roughness might be easier for mosses, but I assume it's harder on barbells. Sand is generally better for catfish-types, right? But does sand also make it easier for catfish-types to dig up your plants? ​OK, I realize that was a lot to ask for and now I feel REALLY bad about wanting things added without having anything to contribute. :icon_conf If it helps at all, I'm totally happy to help edit/add to/organize this list if others can help provide the information. 

Laura


----------



## ShadowBeast

I agree that this should be a sticky.
this is really helpful info, though maybe some pics of the substrate will also help like closeup of it dried to see how big the stuff looks a pic of what it looks like in the tank.
Some people can even help contribute sme of these pics.


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## WendyRob

I just want to say thank you for the helpful thread & my vote is for sticky.


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## zherico

Awesome thread, thank you so much!

So 2 quick questions.... miracle grow organic POTTING soil is better to be used instead of Garden soil...have i read this correctly? and if so why.

I was thinking of using the preferred choice of Miracle grow organic as my choice for mineralizing soil, and then capping it off with ECO that I already have...so the nutrients from the soil will fill the CEC sites of the ECO...


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## Daximus

March bump for sticky. See you next month. :biggrin:


----------



## Warlock

does AKADAMA break down after a few years?!

if it does break down.. do you replace it?


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## nilocg

Warlock said:


> does AKADAMA break down after a few years?!
> 
> if it does break down.. do you replace it?


Yes like any soil based substrate it will break down, how long is dependent on many factors. I believe there area a few people who have had it in their tank well over 1-2 years without any problems. The double red line version is harder than the others and holds up better for longer. Yes if it completely breaks down it would be a good idea to replace it.


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## sayurasem

Any thought on this guys?
Apparently still cycling mine... but It looks very hard pellets like BB's gun.
All writings are in Japanese? any info would be appreciated!

Thank you!


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## audioaficionado

I don't know anything about it, but here's some being used in a nano scape.
http://www.socaltrailriders.org/forum/pub/62690-any-other-planted-fish-tank-geeks-out-there.html


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## Diana

I think it might be helpful to point out the difference between substrate and fertilizer. 

Substrate:
Provides a holding material for roots to grow into, and provides a place for fertilizers to be held near the roots for easy pick up. 

Fertilizer: 
The actual minerals, elements and molecules that plants incorporate into their leaves stems etc. (The legal definition is N-P-K, I am using 'fertilizer' to also include micro nutrients).

Some substrates are made of the minerals that plants need, but are not in a form plants can take in. This is not fertilizer. 

Some substrates hold fertilizers in a way that has a great reserve capacity, and plants can take in these fertilizers, so there is little chance of the plants running out of a food source, as long as there is any reasonable attempt to keep that reserve stocked up. Substrate with a high CEC can remove ferts from the water (from water column dosing) or if it is added via tablets (Osmocote or similar) and hold these nutrients ready for use by the plants. Clay and soil types of substrates do this. Some forms of organic matter can do this. 

Some substrates do not do this (low to no CEC) so you need to stay right on top of water column dosing, and be careful with substrate dosing. The water may flow right through the substrate and carry the fertilizers from tablets or whatever into the water column. Sand and gravel types of substrates do this. 

You can buy substrate at a wide range of pricing, and with a wide range of claims. (ie with fertilizer)

You can buy fertilizer in several forms. (Agricultural powders, timed release, tablets, liquid, and DIY from materials such as these)

If you buy a substrate with any sort of fertilizer claims, the fertilizer will get used up. That is the very point of fertilizer: It gets incorporated into the plant material. The claims for fertilizer need to be checked. Is it a proper balance of fertilizer? Is it compatible with your tap water? What if your tap water is already very high in a certain fertilizer? 

I would not buy a substrate that is also a fertilizer. Why pay for something at the price of substrate that is cheaper when you buy it as fertilizer, and you can customize your fertilizer to suit the other sources of fertilizer you are using (tap water, RO with minerals added, fish food and so on). 

Buy a substrate based on:
Looks ( I happen to like a medium to darker substrate with some blend of color, but to each his own)
Weight (does it hold the plants down?)
Texture (does it hold a nice hill/valley?)
CEC (IMO must be high)
Cost (Are you willing to pay more for a substrate that answers some of these questions better?)
Life span (Does it have to be replaced even if you are not tearing down the tank?)
Re-usability (If I remove the material from the tank can I re-use it?)
Work-ability (Can I re-plant, vacuum, clean the glass, and other things without seriously clouding the water, or scratching the glass?)
Chemical reaction when in the tank. (Does this substrate remove the KH, allowing the pH to drop; or add minerals, raising the hardness and pH; release toxins that kill the plants or livestock; other similar questions)

But do not be concerned with how much fertilizer is in there or not. Do not pay extra for a substrate that claims any fertilizer. You are buying substrate. Buy the fertilizer separately. 
---------------------------------------------------------------
I know it is not popular in planted tanks, but I have used coral sand as a substrate, by itself, and blended with Turface. I do not know if you want to add it to the list:

Coral sand is a reasonable substrate for a hard water tank. It adds minerals to the water so the hardness and pH is kept in the range that hard water fish (Rift Lake, many live bearers) thrive in. (This would be a pro or con, of course)
It is somewhat lightweight, plants do not stay down when initially placed. (I put a few pebbles over the root area). 
Plant roots do spread in it, and eventually do stay down (I had mostly Vals)
Transplant is easy, as long as the material had been vacuumed; mulm settles through it, and the mulm can make a mess. The coral sand itself is not dusty. 
AFAIK little to no CEC. I was water column dosing at the time. 
Looks: What you see is what you get: Creamy to white sand-like granules (different sizes are available) Does not change much in looks from dry to wet. 
Highly re-usable: I originally got it with a used tank (Marine set up) and have used it in several tanks, many tear-downs. The salt rinsed right out of it from its original use. 
It is too light to hold hills and valleys if there is any water movement near it. It will settle through rocks that might be used as retaining walls. 

When mixed with Turface (I have the sort of light brown/gold sort of MVP material)
Turface can remove the KH from the water very well (tap water KH 4-5 degrees, in pure Turface tanks = 0) but when blended with coral sand the coral sand seemed to supply all the KH the Turface could use, so the water maintained its KH. In my hard water tanks I still needed to add minerals (my tap water is fairly soft) when I did water changes, but just to the point of making the new water match the tank water. I did not have to adjust it between water changes. 

As I noted above, I prefer a darker substrate. IMO neither of these are acceptable visually. The coral sand by itself could at least be kept clean, (It is easy to vacuum when you learn the technique) and looked more uniform, but the blend was horrid. The Turface by itself is too light in color for my taste, but looks OK. Not too bad. Takes a little skill to figure out how to vacuum it, it is so light that even the light skimming can pick it up. 

In another tank I had coral sand, blended with dark gravel (smaller than 1/4") and snail shells (MTS, Pond, Ramshorn) and this looked pretty interesting, very beach-like. Perhaps useful for a brackish water set up (that is how I used it)

You list pet-store-bought gravel and pea gravel. Perhaps a mention of local rock yard material would help. (includes pea gravel, which is another name for a size of any local, cheap rock). Many of these are suitable for aquariums. They all fall under the heading of gravel in that they have no CEC, lots of water flow through the material and so on. In different areas of the world there will be many different gravel colors, sizes and textures available. If you are thinking of any of these as a substrate, a cap, or in scattered locations as decoration it will be worth while getting some to test to see what chemical reaction it has with the water in your tank. 

When I first set up tanks I already knew I liked the darker substrate, but I bought the coated gravel at the pet store. The covering wore off over a few years, and revealed a white rock that looked weird showing through the black. 

Then I went to rock yards and got many different materials (I work in the landscape business, and got left-overs from the job sites, too). In my area most of the 'gravel' available is good (neutral) for aquariums. I have not found any that cause problems with the pH or hardness. There is one that I have not tried, and do not want to, that I think is a limestone based material. Of the local gravels, I prefer the finer gravel (under 1/4") for planting, and care, with perhaps some larger pebbles tossed about for decoration.


----------



## audioaficionado

You also can get cheap lava cinder gravel (red or black) and gently mill/crush with a hammer or other method such as a hydraulic press and screen out the fines and coarse pieces. Should have a modest CEC and have a texture similar to 'Eco Complete'.


----------



## 99problems

So I'm trying to use this (amazing) post to decide what substrate to add to my 5.5 gallon tank. I like the dirt-look for substrates, and want the slope to maintain its shape. I've been reading about the Fluval Stratum, but have been reading it is prone to leaving plants floating. Thoughts? (and whether a 4.4 pound bag is enough)?


----------



## eklikewhoa

Has anyone used the new Brightwell substrate yet?

A LFS has started carrying it and the bro-inlaw bought a bag but I'm curious and impatient to know how well it stacks up to or surpasses Amazonia.


----------



## Robert H

My beef with this original post is that for each of the inert gravel substrates you say "lacking important nutrients", but you fail to mention what they are. In truth any inert substrate is not going to have much in the way of macro nutrients, and none contain nitrogen. They would not be inert if they contained nitrogen.

Sand on the other hand, most any kind of sand, has ZERO nutrients and ZERO CEC. Sand has no nutritional value, or the ability to hold nutrients.

Estes and other aquarium gravel is epoxy coated, so if it had any minerals, (which they shouldn't anyway) it is sealed in the gravel by the epoxy, and has ZERO CEC. Pea gravel also has ZERO nutrients.

Eco complete does contain all the important minerals. On the bag, (perhaps this is new, but it is on my bag I got last year) it lists all the minerals it contains and the TOTAL PPM of each mineral. It is not artificially added, it is not added to the water in the bag, it is all natural in the volcanic rock.

I can get you the exact info if you are interested, and independent analysis of the rock Eco complete is made of.

I didn't read every post here. If I am repeating what someone else already said, I apologize.

Personally I think any kind of soil, or "dirt" should be in its own category and not thrown in with inert substrates. They are two entirely different animals. ADA substrate is rather unique since it does contain some organic material for nitrogen.


----------



## james0816

I saw where SMS was removed from the list. While it is no longer available for purchase, it is still out there. I still have two unopened bags. 

Two more that I am currently looking at are Safe-T-Absorbent (not Oil-Dri) from Moltan Company and most recently the IonBrick from hydrophyte here on the site.

SafeTSorb is kiln-dried, calcined and milled natural Montmorillonite Clay with medium bulk density, medium sorptive capacity, average surface area and high hardness. It has a CEC value of 33.6.

I don't have any information on the IonBrick product.


----------



## somewhatshocked

Eco-Complete is inert. Containing nothing. Whatever "nutrients" are available are minimal at best and have been absorbed.

Here's what the CaribSea, Inc. Sales Manager for North America says about EC:
_"[T]here is nothing organic in the product other than some tannins and bacteria cultures… the substrate itself is inert biologically speaking…"_​EC does have high CEC and can absorb minerals and nutrients with ease to later disperse to plants. 



Robert H said:


> Eco complete does contain all the important minerals. On the bag, (perhaps this is new, but it is on my bag I got last year) it lists all the minerals it contains and the TOTAL PPM of each mineral. It is not artificially added, it is not added to the water in the bag, it is all natural in the volcanic rock.
> 
> I can get you the exact info if you are interested, and independent analysis of the rock Eco complete is made of.


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## HunterTank90

I want to buy fluval shrimp stratum and don't know how many lb i should buy to have 1in gravel for my 20 gallon long tank. Please help me out if you bought fluval stratum before.


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## somewhatshocked

2-3 of the 8.8lb bags will be plenty. I'd go with 3 to be on the safe side.

I recently used that amount in a 20L you can find in my signature.


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## GeToChKn

somewhatshocked said:


> Eco-Complete is inert. Containing nothing. Whatever "nutrients" are available are minimal at best and have been absorbed.
> 
> Here's what the CaribSea, Inc. Sales Manager for North America says about EC:
> _"[T]here is nothing organic in the product other than some tannins and bacteria cultures… the substrate itself is inert biologically speaking…"_​EC does have high CEC and can absorb minerals and nutrients with ease to later disperse to plants.


I think they've changed it. Looking at the bag here, it lists 25+ minerals in it, which AFAIR, was never there before. the bag looks totally different even than the bags I bought. It never said "Mineralogically Complete" before nor had the list of minerals on it. It was always just the bio-liquid added for an "instant cycle".


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## somewhatshocked

It's identical to the packaging from the instance I linked to.

The "active" stuff is in the, ahem, juice they put in the bag. Nothing different, unfortunately.

They're still trying to get fancy with the packaging.

So this doesn't come off as a vendor review, let me state that I use Eco-Complete all the time. But it's just fancy-branded lava rock.


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## audioaficionado

I think I'm going to mill my own Eco Complete using black driveway cinder rocks and a hammer. My fish will supply any magic juices :icon_mrgr


----------



## Daximus

All I can think about is...



> [_cabinet has been debating putting water on the plants instead of Brawndo_]
> 
> Pvt. Joe Bowers: What *are* these electrolytes? Do you even know?
> 
> Secretary of State: They're... what they use to make Brawndo!
> 
> Pvt. Joe Bowers: But *why* do they use them to make Brawndo?
> 
> Secretary of Defense: [_raises hand after a pause_] Because Brawndo's got electrolytes.


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## audioaficionado

AnniePN said:


> Sorry if I missed this somehow, but I don't see CaribSea floramax listed, is this the same as another substrate for comparison purposes?





allaboutfish said:


> what about caribeasea floramax?


I got lazy and decided not to mill my own black lava substrate LOL.

Eco-Complete vs FloraMax:

As far as I can tell, they are the same basic crushed volcanic rock. If you go to Caribsea's website and compare the pictures of the black Eco-Complete and FloraMax, they are the exact same picture grain for grain. So I got two 12# bags of FloraMax because they were on sale at Petsmart for $17 ea and across town there was a 20# bag of Eco-Complete for $33. About the same price figuring the different packaging, weights and volumes. The FloraMax is also wet, but not quite as wet as Eco-Complete. I'd say these are six of one or a half dozen of the other.

I hope the 2x12# bags of FloraMax are enough for my 20L shrimp tank as I cleaned out all of my local Petsmart's inventory LOL. I want to get this project cycling asap.


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## sayurasem

Eco-complete and Floramax is no difference.
The only different thing is Eco-complete has more smaller, persistent granule size and its black. Floramax has some big some small granules plus it has red clay? granules as well.


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## pejerrey

AKADAMA DOUBLE RED LINE










No ferts, few shrimps, not much fedding, no co2, only akadama DRL with an UGF. Only DI water with 6 drops of fluval mineral per gallon.

Pro: I don't know what is in it but it's awesome for the plants. I will find out soon though, I'm trying to find a local equal.
Looks awesome! Best for cardinias and most shrimps!
Cons: plants don't root so well(maybe the UGF)... And may not be available in the USA anymore. $$$$$$$


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## phantom85

ok this might be revising an old thread but hey.
ok i have been using this stuff
http://www.richgro.com.au/datasheets/aquatic_planting_MSDS.pdf 
Pros- high CEC, designed to absorb ferts, the older it is the better it gets, good partical size mix (no compaction)
Cons- Very VERY dusty, must be capped, no nutrients, must fertilise


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## audioaficionado

sayurasem said:


> Eco-complete and Floramax is no difference.
> The only different thing is Eco-complete has more smaller, persistent granule size and its black. *Floramax has some big some small granules plus it has red clay? granules as well*.


Not the new stuff. You can get either red or black and they have finer granules like Eco-complete. The earlier stuff had mixed colors. Maybe you can still get it mixed, but I didn't see any. There's no clay either. It's milled red or black lava rock.


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## swoof

audioaficionado said:


> Not the new stuff. You can get either red or black and they have finer granules like Eco-complete. The earlier stuff had mixed colors. Maybe you can still get it mixed, but I didn't see any. There's no clay either. It's milled red or black lava rock.


Are you talking about FloraMax or Flourite?

never mind i see that Caribsea does offer two colors now


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## knuggs

Why isnt this a sticky...


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## In.a.Box

Eco-complete have sheet of iron in there.
A sheet of iron broken up into small piece.

I remember reading online somewhere people will just use nails in their tank.
Nails for building.


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## knuggs

In.a.Box said:


> Eco-complete have sheet of iron in there.
> A sheet of iron broken up into small piece.
> 
> I remember reading online somewhere people will just use nails in their tank.
> Nails for building.


I just use my tap water  works about the same lol And with ecos high CEC I dont ever have to fert Iron.


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## sketch804

great write up here..I am trying to decide which substrate to use for my new project..
I have been using eco-complete mixed with flourish black sand for years and seems to work well. I also use root tabs..I think my stuff would grow a bit better if I had some better substrate, but does great for me!
I think I might just go with a huge mix..mts capped with eco-complete and some old ASA with a screen seperating the mts from the cap. Sounds good to me to get the best growth with or with out much fert dosing..I do use EI method and it works great but would be nice if both helped the plants out..does this sound like a good plan???
Great artical here!


----------



## nguymi

Anyone have any experience with UP Aqua Soil? Comparable to ADA aquasoil?


----------



## madness

nguymi said:


> Anyone have any experience with UP Aqua Soil? Comparable to ADA aquasoil?


It should be.

Orlando recommends it highly as do a few others on the APE forum who have used it. Orlando is selling the soil so he might technically have a conflict of interest but he is very reliable and trustworthy IMO.

The few people here on these forums who have the Up Aqua Shrimp Sand (very similar to the Up Aqua plant soil) also seem to really like it.

IIRC the Up Aqua stuff is both nutrient rich and lowers the pH (two of the main things that make ADA different than most soils).

Cost is the only negative that I can see with the new Up Aqua substrates.


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## In.a.Box

Old dry by saft T.

Pro. Cost, color.
Con. Dust, you can wash it 100 time still won't change the dirty dust.


----------



## aquatic serenity

In.a.Box said:


> Old dry by saft T.
> 
> Pro. Cost, color.
> Con. Dust, you can wash it 100 time still won't change the dirty dust.


 
not true...saf t sorb has minimal dust ,especially when u first run it through a screen to sift out the fine particles as I do...


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## kuro

If eco-complete is lava rock does that mean it has poor cec? I might get some later but i was hoping it had high cec. Is flourite lava rock too? i mostly been using FSS and Aquasoil but i want to plant my ranchu tank with easy plant so they won't devour it lol.


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## flight50

It would be helpful if this was a sticky. It took a bit before I found this thread again. Plus there has been several threads from newcomers and the like inquiring about which substrate to go with.

I plan to do an experiment with several substrates for my upcoming multi tank setup and seeing all the options in one post makes very convenient. If not a sticky can we at least add just the O.P. to the articles section on this forum.


----------



## DaTrueDave

somewhatshocked said:


> Eco-Complete is inert. Containing nothing. Whatever "nutrients" are available are minimal at best and have been absorbed.
> 
> Here's what the CaribSea, Inc. Sales Manager for North America says about EC:_"[T]here is nothing organic in the product other than some tannins and bacteria cultures… the substrate itself is inert biologically speaking…"_​EC does have high CEC and can absorb minerals and nutrients with ease to later disperse to plants.


You seem confused. "Inert" is not the same as "not containing nutrients". There are plenty of substrates out there that are not inert. There are plenty that are filled with organic matter that will break down and spew chemicals into the water. There are plenty that are made up of minerals that are vital to the health of our plants. There are plenty that will hold and release nutrients, and there are plenty that will not. And there are plenty that are inert and won't change or react on their own in the normal aquatic environment.

Eco Complete (and Flourite) contains plenty of nutrients that are needed by our plants. These nutrients are often referred to as 'micro' nutrients, as they're needed in such small amounts. Without these minerals in the substrate, you would have to provide them to your plants another way. 

There are many choices for substrates, and even more reasons to choose a particular substrate. I see no reason to confuse the issue even more with inaccurate information.

This is a bit dated, and doesn't have EcoComplete, but this analysis shows what some of the different substrates offered a number of years back: http://home.infinet.net/teban/jamie.htm


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## wkndracer

Hi DaTrue,

from your post:
_*Eco Complete (and Flourite) contains plenty of nutrients that are needed by our plants. These nutrients are often referred to as 'micro' nutrients, as they're needed in such small amounts. Without these minerals in the substrate, you would have to provide them to your plants another way. *_

Tap water contains minerals, fish food uneaten and waste products contain minerals. Those are much more available for plant uptake than anything supplied by EC. 

from your linked information:
_*Calcined clays - clays that are heated to a high temperature to cause an extreme hardening and oxidation. They can then be fracted into smaller pieces to be used as a primary substrate base. They become very porous on firing, and provide many nutrient binding sites. Chemically and physically stable. Good CEC. 

Flourite - Seachem, USA - fracted, stable clay; very hard; multi-colored (brown, red-brown, black); resembles aquarium gravel; no organic matter.*_ 


I think it's more than safe to place Eco-Complete in the same category with those I cropped and listed above from your linked material. EC is advertized in a very misleading way (got my money once) to many entering the hobby. Flourite original is simply crushed brick (along with the dust) and EC is fractured volcanic rock. Dispute on that is silly (imo) that is what it is. Neither 'rock' can release any appreciable amount of useable mineral as it's bound into the structure of the rock. Unless the rock dissolves and breaks down similar to limestone (which it doesn't) where is the release action for ongoing mineral support for plant growth? 

While it has a reported high CEC and is porous to promote binding beyond that I too would (and have) post EC is in the inert category rather than considering it anything that enriches a planting substrate. Spent the $$$ years ago on both Flourite original and Eco Complete hoping to have a lush planted tank. Shorty after wasting that money I found this site, bought D. Walstad's book and found Rex's site realizing as I became better informed just how far I had been misled. Or allowed myself to be tricked by ad-gab and a flourish of wordy text and pictures.

Are Eco Complete and Flourite completely safe to use? absolutely!
Do they hold plants well and have the ability make for a good planting media? you bet!
Are they worth the money? that's a personal choice I've grown away from as have many others. Am I seeming confused to you in what I understand this material to be?


----------



## somewhatshocked

I could bang my head against a wall or I could be polite and say this: If anybody thinks Eco-Complete contains anything useful for plants, prove it with a scientific study.

Until then, I'm standing by what CaribSea says - it's _*inert.*_ Inert. In the words of the company manufacturing and selling the product.


----------



## Wasserpest

Added to our new Substrates Articles and FAQ sticky. Please keep the discussion friendly and on topic. Heated arguments result in locked threads.


----------



## flight50

Wasserpest said:


> Added to our new Substrates Articles and FAQ sticky. Please keep the discussion friendly and on topic. Heated arguments result in locked threads.


Thanks for adding this as one of the links in the stickies. There have been way to many questions on substrate choices lately. I think this threads gives alot of good info.


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## pejerrey

flight50 said:


> Thanks for adding this as one of the links in the stickies. There have been way to many questions on substrate choices lately. I think this threads gives alot of good info.


 +1
Thanks to Wasserpest for improving the stickies!

thanks to Lisa too because of addressing the stickies modification in an open thread where we all gave out input, the new stickies are awesome!


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## Jjensen187

I used Flourite without rinsing it and wow, what a huge mess!!! The bag blatantly lies when it says pre rinsed and not necessary to rinse again.


----------



## audioaficionado

Did you try just putting a plate on top and gently filling up the tank so the water didn't stir up the substrate?


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## sketch804

Now I will say Flourite black sand does cloud the water no matter what you do, it's like old aqua soil but not as bad. It will cloud, but if you have a decent filter by the next day it'll be clear and good to go.


----------



## Unwavering

Anyone who has used Fluval Plant Stratum, will it hold a decent slope?


----------



## Francis Xavier

I would just say that the leeching effect of Ammonia for the Aqua Soil isn't really a con.

That's there for a very specific purpose: plants absorb the ammonia and use it to grow, this is one of the reasons why, compared to other soils, plants experience explosive growth in Aqua Soil. The other benefit is that it basically cycles your tank for you, which is a process you'll have to go through anyway.


----------



## sbarbee54

Aqua Soil is awasome for the reason mentioned above by Francis. Cycles your tank, full of nutrients, holds up pretty well, and is good for buffering PH which most plants thrive in.


----------



## brinks

What about sand from a field, beach, or fine gravel from a beach, after being washed?


----------



## belphegor

I want to use Amazonia, but I've heard that if you use any active substrates, it will release toxins and waste that it absorbed and stored over time. If that is true, how can I take out the Amazonia when it expires without having a mini-cycle and killing all the inhabitants and restarting the whole entire process of cycling?


----------



## dhgyello04

Hello,
I need to replace my substrate in my 46 gallon bow front. It is 3 year old FSS and is not doing much for buffering the ph.

The tank is heavily planted with moss, floaters, stems, dwarf sag, Anubius, and so on. The tank mates are only OEBT’s and PFR’s (shrimp) my tap comes out at 8.2 ph and I need it down to about 6.8. I use straight RO/DI water that comes out at 6.1-6.4 ph and a tds of 0 – 1. 

Right now I have an extra bag of ADA Aquasoil Amazon (9L bag size). What other substrate would be good to add with it as a mix. ADA AS is good for plants and lowers the ph to about 6.0-6.5 or so, but that is too low for OEBT’s. Please help. Thanks


----------



## sketch804

brinks said:


> What about sand from a field, beach, or fine gravel from a beach, after being washed?



Sand is a good mixer but I wouldn't use it by itself. Sand, fine gravel, etc..has no nutritional value to it, essentially it is inert and plants have no use for it. But I do use sand in most of my tanks as an extra. And a big NO to anything from the beach..salt content is extremely high. But this is all IMO also..


----------



## amir7099

hi 
i want to know what is the difference betwin the quality of ada aqua soil amazonia and ista aqua soil
aqua soil ista


----------



## adive

Hi Tactus, any info on contro soil by Marfied? (www.controsoil.com) Thanks.


----------



## roadmaster

Francis Xavier said:


> I would just say that the leeching effect of Ammonia for the Aqua Soil isn't really a con.
> 
> That's there for a very specific purpose: plants absorb the ammonia and use it to grow, this is one of the reasons why, compared to other soils, plants experience explosive growth in Aqua Soil. The other benefit is that it basically cycles your tank for you, which is a process you'll have to go through anyway.


Leeching effect of ammonia would only be harmful if fish are present .
Could also give rise to algae bloom if too much light,not enough CO2,nutrient's,are available but then this is often the case with or without enhanced substrates.
Ammonia with too much light nearly alway's = algae IME.


----------



## roadmaster

sketch804 said:


> Sand is a good mixer but I wouldn't use it by itself. Sand, fine gravel, etc..has no nutritional value to it, essentially it is inert and plants have no use for it. But I do use sand in most of my tanks as an extra. And a big NO to anything from the beach..salt content is extremely high. But this is all IMO also..


Believe any substrate over time,,,will house organic's as food ,fish waste collect's there and is then utilized by plant's.
Until this happen's with inert substrates such as sand or plain gravel,,you can alway's dose nutrient's directly to the water.(dry fertilizer's).
Plant's will use nutrient's where they find them.


----------



## NanoDave

Don't think this was mention but Activ-Flora, my favorite substrate hands down. Runs around $25-30 a 16lb bag. This is a very fine substrate thats about sand size. It's fairly heavy too so gravel vac-ing it is a breeze. Not to mention since it's dense, small size you can plant anything extremely easily and stay. I've have this in a 10g Tetra Kit set-up with only 1 stock bulb no co2 and no dosing and plants grow better in there than my 29gal with 2 T5 HO's planted bulbs, 1 T8 10k, Eco-Complete, root tabs, dosing, and co2. I refuse to use anything else on any of my show planted tanks after my experience with this stuff. Here's some stuff I pulled off there site:


Elemental Analysis

Aluminum ..................10210
Magnesium .............. 2281
Barium ..........................124
Manganese .....................64 
Calcium..........................195
Sodium.........................223
Cobalt...............................6
Nickel............................12
Chromium........................13
Vanadium.......................15
Copper ............................17
Zinc...............................29
Iron.............................18500
Potassium .................. 2195
Units=mg/kg	

•	Bio-activ Nutrients™ for faster, healthier plant growth. 
•	Contains LIVE® Heterotrophic bacteria for Instant Cycling® of your planted aquarium. 
•	100% Natural - does not contain artificial dyes or additives. 
•	Promotes healthy root system - Activ-Flora™ is extremely microporous 
•	Will not alter pH in your Planted Aquarium. 
•	Natural bi-segmentation™ process to promote optimal Oxygenation 
•	Naturally Spherical grains promotes maximum diffusion (aeration) 
•	Activ-Flora™ is rich in Iron, no need for laterite. 

http://www.activflora.com/

*Note* My 12 Long in my signature has this in it and I started that gloss carpet from 1 single pot of glosso for the entire tank 6 months ago. Mind you I only used co2 every other day or so and never did root tabs till two months ago. Not to mention I only have HE T5's rather than HO T5's so I highly recommend this stuff


----------



## roadmaster

Can use search feature here for my thread's, and see example of 300 litre low tech with plain old Miracle Grow,capped with blasting media.
Haven't vaccumed this tank for a couple year's.


----------



## kodawg9

The way I'm reading the original post in this thread, the list of substrate pros/cons are if you're only using one of the substrates?

I've been struggling for weeks trying to figure out if I should go sand or gravel cap (or another option) for my dirted tank. My tank's literally been sitting with the 1-1.5" of dirt in my 20 gal for some time now because I can't figure out a cap.

Any differences in the pros/cons between gravel vs. sand as a cap?


----------



## James M

Impossible to beat what they grow in naturally - dirt.


----------



## roadmaster

kodawg9 said:


> The way I'm reading the original post in this thread, the list of substrate pros/cons are if you're only using one of the substrates?
> 
> I've been struggling for weeks trying to figure out if I should go sand or gravel cap (or another option) for my dirted tank. My tank's literally been sitting with the 1-1.5" of dirt in my 20 gal for some time now because I can't figure out a cap.
> 
> Any differences in the pros/cons between gravel vs. sand as a cap?


Well , with sand cap the debri stay's on top where it can be easily removed unless the tank is heavily planted which would make vaccuming difficult to impossible without damaging plant's.
Sand is also dirt cheap.
Some will say that the sand compact's and makes root development difficult and hamper's plant's ability to transport oxygen to said root's but many ,many folk's use sand without problem's (me too).

Fine gravel, comes in wider variety of color's,more expensive, unless you happen to find some at lawnscaping store.
Does not compact if you are fearful of such thing's,and allow's waste from food's,fish poo, to settle into lower region's of substrate = food for plant growth.

My two cent's.


----------



## James M

A trick I learned.
Step A - collect gravel from the beach (or whatever safe, attractive gravel you have access too)

Step B - sift it through 1/4" screen (hardware cloth)

Step c - sift it through fine metal window screen.

What's left is the perfect size for a cap.


----------



## DogFish

James M said:


> A trick I learned.
> Step A - collect gravel from the beach (or whatever safe, attractive gravel you have access too)
> 
> Step B - sift it through 1/4" screen (hardware cloth)
> 
> Step c - sift it through fine metal window screen.
> 
> What's left is the perfect size for a cap.


My Sieve box



James you are funny, you say It's a waste of time to build MTS but NOT a waste of time to drive to a beach, haul home sand, screen it out, rinse it when you could just buy PFS that's washed & screened @ $7.99 for 40#s.

I'm sure you spend more than $7 in gas going to the beach.

:hihi:


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

There are also some laws preventing you from taking beach sand, so it might be illegal as well.


----------



## James M

DogFish said:


> James you are funny, you say It's a waste of time to build MTS but NOT a waste of time to drive to a beach, haul home sand, screen it out, rinse it when you could just buy PFS that's washed & screened @ $7.99 for 40#s.


Or you're the funny one forgetting some of us live on the coast.
It took me a whole 2 minutes to get to the beach. :bounce:


----------



## DogFish

James M said:


> Or you're the funny one forgetting some of us live on the coast.
> It took me a whole 2 minutes to get to the beach. :bounce:


Sorry, I thought you were old enough to have a drivers license. Sometimes I forget there are children that are members and post. :icon_redf


----------



## James M

DogFish said:


> Sorry, I thought you were old enough to have a drivers license. Sometimes I forget there are children that are members and post. :icon_redf


Ahhh...frustrated comedian I see.
Keep working on it.

Next time you get cornered, might want to just leave it.


----------



## James M

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> There are also some laws preventing you from taking beach sand, so it might be illegal as well.


The point wasn't about the beach, it was about collecting gravel, wherever it may be from. Despite dogy's goofy post, bagged gravel doesn't equate to what results from sifting natural stuff, more of a variance in grain size for one. Nothing wrong with bagged or bin stuff, but I get better results from stuff I collect and sift, wherever it's from.


----------



## DogFish

James M said:


> Ahhh...frustrated comedian I see.
> Keep working on it.
> 
> Next time you get cornered, might want to just leave it.


Or just ship you off to IggyLand


----------



## OVT

*Flourite washing*

For the record,

Water after 3 rinses:










Sludge:










Result:


----------



## NanoDave

OVT: That looks pretty messy! Wonder if there's any good nutrients left in the soil after the extensive rinsing :-/. So tempting at $7 a bag but idk if it's worth all that trouble and I personally don't like big granules.


----------



## amir7099

Hi
Some productions of ADA have been entered to Iran. And the point that some of those are in Iran by personal stores and are not in iran by your candidator.
I have bought one of these products called Amazonia but I think that this one is produced in 2008 because the title on it was NEW Amazonia. The ADA changed the shape of Amazonia in 2011 and wrote just Amazonia ( without new ) so the result: my Amazonia is made in 2008. And this is the QR code of mine: 
I want to know according to what I said, What happened to quality of mine? Did it reduce in quality or not? ( reminde you that mine is 2008 )
What about spoiling? 
Because the seeds of Aquasoil were a little wet and changed into powder by some finger pressure.
Please answer me thank you


----------



## unionfishguy

Anybody have any experience with caribsea flora max? Does it really have all the nutrients you need in it? Or should you supplement with other ferts as well?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## green18

I liked the size and shape but yes, you will need to supplement.


----------



## markisashrimp

somewhatshocked;1584735
[URL="http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/substrate/144517-fluval-stratum-soil-tested-s-post.html" said:


> here[/URL], here, here, here.
> 
> These links you had provided has been very helpful....thank for posting them


----------



## quietdusk

*Safe-t-sorb*

Not sure if this is still being updated, but Safe-T-Sorb could be added to the turface, etc category.
And it might not be a con for everyone, but it dramatically decreases KH which of course affects pH. It was a con for me b/c of my snails - pH got too low and was dissolving snail shells.


----------



## Bob B

What supplements would you recommend carib sea?


----------



## batkidiii

*what about laterite*

I have read that putting a layer of  laterite on the bottom and then covering with gravel is a efficient way to go. I am in the process of researching my new 55 gallon tank for a substrate. Good posting by the way. Thanks


----------



## Waterchilde

wkndracer said:


> Eco Complete Plant Substrate = Uniform Size? LOL
> They must have really messed up the screening machine on every bag of volcanic rock I was dumb enough to buy LOL. Let your tank go lean on ferts and I swear it comes with BBA spores imbedded in it because that's where I'll see it first. :hihi: bet you can tell I'm not really a fan huh?
> The marketing and labeling; _"Contains all the necessary mineral nutrients for luxuriant aquarium plant growth PLUS beneficial bacteria to rapidly convert fish waste into natural food for your aquatic plants."_
> I truly do not believe it based on how it DID NOT preform well beyond a few weeks. The above is quoted ad material. My biggest complaint is they're marketing plan. It holds plants well enough having weight to it but the ad gab really offends me because after using over a dozen bags of it in different tanks I just can't believe any of it to be true. It preforms almost on a par with Flourite Original in my experience.
> 
> Flourite Original Pros-Good CEC, is uniform in it's frag size and as far as a capping material for a soil tank it tops my list of those I've tried as the best to date. It has the weight Turface/Soil Master Select lack when used as a capping material.
> Cons-the rinse needs to be very thorough and the fines lost or it can be a cloudy mess straight out of the bag. Marketing terms it as 'dust' but that is grossly understated (imo).
> 
> Miracle Grow Organic Potting Mix (NOT potting soil) The soil mixes I've seen all contain cow manure. The product will vary by region and also the season it is processed during. Whether screened to fines or not it seems to preform well as a base with predictable results. The gassing that is a concern is only during a brief period of transition to the stable submerged decay that provides CO2 via bacteria activity that lasts for the about the first year chewing through the organic materials releasing the mineral content for plant uptake. Easily handled in my experiences using it.
> 
> Black Beauty or Black Diamond blasting media is another substrate option I'm using that is cost effective, inert, appears stable for long term use both as a capping material and in conjunction with root tablet supplements. Positive experiences to date based on about six months of use in two tanks.


I'm sorry, I am a complete novice. What does "capping material" mean? Is it what you put as the top layer to make it look pretty? 

Thanks.


----------



## Dead2fall

Waterchilde said:


> I'm sorry, I am a complete novice. What does "capping material" mean? Is it what you put as the top layer to make it look pretty?
> 
> Thanks.


It's whatever you cover the dirt with to keep it from being a mud tank.


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## Docock

What about pros and cons of aquadert?


----------



## funghi2

LFS told me to not use the 60lbs of eco complete i got because it alkalizes the water. didnt see that on the guide here. is it true?


----------



## end3r.P

funghi2 said:


> LFS told me to not use the 60lbs of eco complete i got because it alkalizes the water. didnt see that on the guide here. is it true?


Nope. Should be fine.


----------



## CrypticLifeStyle

Been using eco for many many years, no issue's. Mix it in with petco black sand to fill the voids, works great.


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## bmize89

What would be the vest cheapest option for a 110 gallon tank? Ill have to get alot of whatever i get. I have always used PFS but i want to go with a dark substrate and the option to carpet. Any info, techniques, advice is greatly appreciated

Sent from my LG-H901 using Tapatalk


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## fablau

Eco complete is probably the best choice for you then.


----------



## Nlewis

bmize89 said:


> What would be the vest cheapest option for a 110 gallon tank? Ill have to get alot of whatever i get. I have always used PFS but i want to go with a dark substrate and the option to carpet. Any info, techniques, advice is greatly appreciated
> 
> Sent from my LG-H901 using Tapatalk


Black Diamond blasting media. You can get 50lb bags for around $10 or less at Tractor Supply.


----------



## bmize89

And black diamond blasting sand will support a carpet of star rupens, monte carlo etc?

Sent from my LG-H901 using Tapatalk


----------



## swoof

sure if you use root tabs and proper ferts and light/co2


----------



## yakal

bmize89 said:


> What would be the vest cheapest option for a 110 gallon tank? Ill have to get alot of whatever i get. I have always used PFS but i want to go with a dark substrate and the option to carpet. Any info, techniques, advice is greatly appreciated
> 
> Sent from my LG-H901 using Tapatalk


look into mts (mineralized top soil) then cap it with blasting sand


----------



## bmize89

Ok thats an option so my next question is how many pounds of dirt/sand for a 110 gallon tank dimensions 60"x18"x24"?

Sent from my LG-H901 using Tapatalk


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## CrypticLifeStyle

I always went with the rule of a lb per gallon, but how deep of a substrate bed you want determines that math.


----------



## Nordic

Anybody with any knowledge of sintered bauxite?
I can get some nice blasting bauxite in good grain size and slightly rounded edges.


----------



## Lance Lesko

inert? no CEC? what are those ?


----------



## Diana

> 60"x18"x24"


Most sands and gravels weigh about 100 lbs per cubic foot. 
Soil is a bit lighter (not by much) and organic matter is a lot lighter. 
Montmorillonite clay is also quite light. I used one bag (40 lb) in my tank about the same size as yours, and the substrate ended up a about 2" deep. 

5' x 1.5' x .17' (2" deep) = 1.275 cubic feet. 2" is a reasonable depth, or you could use more in the back, making a mound or an island. 
If you are looking into sands and gravels, (including blasting sand) this would be about 130 lbs at 2" deep, or 180 lbs at 3" deep all over. 
If you are using a lighter material light Miracle Gro then half that would probably be enough.


----------



## tapwater

I'm in the process of washing some Flourite Dark that I'm gonna sprinkle onto some black volcanic gravel which contains root tabs. Tank is heavily planted. Trying to give it a more natural look. Can anyone see any problems or advantages with this?


----------



## roadmaster

Fluorite has good CEC (capability to hold nutrient's ).
I think the fluorite get's better with age after it has soaked up some nutrient's/waste.
Mostly just clay and maybe a little iron right out of the bag.
Go easy on root tab's/osmocote.IMHO


----------



## jeffkrol

Nordic said:


> Anybody with any knowledge of sintered bauxite?
> I can get some nice blasting bauxite in good grain size and slightly rounded edges.


"out of the box, appears quite alkaline..


> Soil amelioration
> Addition of bauxite residue to acidic and sandy soils can be beneficial in many ways and considerable
> work in this area has been undertaken in Western Australia by Alcoa. Bauxite residue at a level of over
> 250 t/ha was added to sandy soil together with 5% gypsum. The additions imparted to the soil, improved
> water retention and nutrient utilisation ability. Greatly increased ammonium and phosphorus retention
> were found showing how the usage of fertiliser could be reduced.
> The benefits of good phosphate retention for bauxite residue partially neutralised to below pH 8 have been
> shown to very beneficial by Alcoa in the Peel-Harvey Estuary in Western Australia. The bauxite residue
> was commercialised in 1993 under the name Alkaloam
> which is the material made after the carbonation
> of fine bauxite residue by carbon dioxide. In addition to ensuring stronger phosphorus adsorption, it has
> the benefit of reducing the leachability of phosphorus and thereby the amount of phosphorous escaping
> into the Peel Inlet and Harvey Estuary and hence the occurrence of algal blooms and fish kills. Alkaloam
> also acts in a similar way to agricultural lime. After washing, the carbonated coarse bauxite residue is
> termed Red Sand; this is used as a general fill construction including road base construction.
> Concerns were raised with respect to leachability of heavy metals and radionuclides from the bauxite
> residue and a considerable amount of work was carried out to determine whether this was a problem. All the research studies indicated that there was no problem in leachability of heavy metals or radioactivity.
> One of the studies looked at levels of 40K,
> 226
> Ra,
> 228
> Ra,
> 228
> Th, and228U which might arise from the bauxite 22 residue in crops grown and no uptake of these elements was detected even up to additions of 480 t/ha of bauxite residue.
> Saline residue has been used to treat acid sulfate soils for the Gladstone Port Authority and the QAL tailings dams themselves are considered an acceptable means of disposing of acid sulfate soils from construction activities



http://european-aluminium.eu/wp-con...Residue-Management-Best-Practice_May-2013.pdf
https://books.google.com/books?id=Y...nepage&q=sintered bauxite agriculture&f=false

Sorry, that is more about the waste tailings..
As to pure sintered bauxite.. All mostly al oxide.. Like sapphire.. As such probably would be quite good at scratching your glass..
black diamond blasting sand is >6 on the Moh's hardness scale. Bauxite is 9 

glass is 5.5...Hardness alone kind of disqualifies it..


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi All,

Regrettably the conception that Flourite has "good CEC / cation exchange capacity" is false; *Flourite has a very low CEC*. There was lab tests done by Jamie S. Johnson on various substrates and written up in the Summer 2000 issue Planted Aquarium Magazine (pg 17) discusses substrates and on pages 19, 20, and 21 provides detailed information on various substrate materials. Seachem Flourite is #19 on the table and has a CEC value of 1.7 which is surprising low for a fracted (fractured) clay product. I say that because Turface, a fractured clay product with a CEC of 29.8, as well as other clay products such as Special Kitty brand cat litter have CEC's in excess of 25. I have included a copy of the table from the article below; again Flourite is #19, Turface is #16, Special Kitty is #17. Our substrates are an important component of our planted aquariums and knowledge as to their composition, characteristics, and abilities can help improve the health and beauty of our plants. Curious about ADA Aquasoils? Tom Barr stated in a post that ADA Aquasoils are the equivalent of rice paddy soils with a CEC of over 50.

Substrate Table from Summer 2000 issue of Planted Aquarium Magazine


----------



## kevmo911

That's interesting about the Fluorite. I tried doing a search, and only came up with the same information from the same guy posted at thekrib from a year before. I don't have any reason to doubt his findings, but it'd be nice to have confirmation. I wonder what the difference is between Fluorite and Turface. Is Turface softer clay that's baked, while Fluorite isn't baked at all, and more resembles rock before it's broken up?

I gave up on CEC ratings a while back and am happy to go with much cheaper substrates now, but I'm really curious.


----------



## Oso Polar

This is very surprising for a clay based product. Plus the fact that fresh Flourite significantly lowers KH in a tank (experienced first hand). I sent a question to Seachem, lets see if and what they'll reply.

BTW, anybody can send them a question at Seachem - Flourite (switch to FAQ tab and scroll down - it has a form to send a message). May be if they'll get enough questions on the topic they'll come up with some official data (as they have for mineral content).


----------



## jeffkrol

kevmo911 said:


> That's interesting about the Fluorite. I tried doing a search, and only came up with the same information from the same guy posted at thekrib from a year before. I don't have any reason to doubt his findings, but it'd be nice to have confirmation. I wonder what the difference is between Fluorite and Turface. Is Turface softer clay that's baked, while Fluorite isn't baked at all, and more resembles rock before it's broken up?
> 
> I gave up on CEC ratings a while back and am happy to go with much cheaper substrates now, but I'm really curious.


laterite vs "other" clays..
clay is really a particle size.. as in sand,silt,clay
larger to smaller.
clays mineral composition will vary by the parent material that formed it.
so there are numerous different clays.
each having it's own properties..


























Everything you didn't want to know about clay..
http://www.slideshare.net/1234567ses/cec-14594689


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

kevmo911 said:


> That's interesting about the Fluorite. I tried doing a search, and only came up with the same information from the same guy posted at thekrib from a year before. I don't have any reason to doubt his findings, but it'd be nice to have confirmation. I wonder what the difference is between Fluorite and Turface. Is Turface softer clay that's baked, while Fluorite isn't baked at all, and more resembles rock before it's broken up?
> 
> I gave up on CEC ratings a while back and am happy to go with much cheaper substrates now, but I'm really curious.


 @kevmo911
It could certainly be the clay, or it could be the calcination (firing) process that effects the CEC. I have noticed that the Flourite seems to be heavier that the calcined clay products. It does not look like a lot of independent testing has been done on substrates - probably only of interest to a few fish geeks like me.
@Oso Polar
Thanks, let us know what you find out!


----------



## jeffkrol

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> @*kevmo911*
> It could certainly be the clay, or it could be the calcination (firing) process that effects the CEC. I have noticed that the Flourite seems to be heavier that the calcined clay products. It does not look like a lot of independent testing has been done on substrates - probably only of interest to a few fish geeks like me.
> 
> @*Oso Polar*
> Thanks, let us know what you find out!


Using the word clay is like using the word fish... 
As fish are different, different types of clay have different properties..
curious to see if Seachem is more open than back in the 90's.. 



> Re:Flourite
> by Greg Morin <greg/seachem.com>
> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999
> 
> > Dr. Morin, could you please comment on this? You stated at one point I
> > believe that Flourite was a naturally mined material. Is it subjected to
> > high heat (fired) during processing (to increase internal pore space I would
> > assume) or is it just cleaned, crushed and bagged?
> 
> 
> Well, I can't say too much without getting in trouble ;-)
> 
> All I can say is, the material has experienced high levels of heat.
> It is naturally mined. And the order actually would be crushed,
> cleaned, and bagged ;-)
> 
> Hope that helps, but I can't really say much more without giving away
> a little bit of the "secret".
> 
> - -Greg Morin
> 
> Gregory Morin, Ph.D. ~~~~~~~Research Director~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Seachem Laboratories, Inc. www.seachem.com 888-SEACHEM


http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/flourite.html#2


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

jeffkrol said:


> Using the word clay is like using the word fish...
> As fish are different, different types of clay have different properties..
> curious to see if Seachem is more open than back in the 90's..
> 
> 
> Seachem Flourite


Hi jeffkrol,

Love seeing 'the krib' quoted! It is a old website but it still contains a wealth of worthwhile information. We are lucky to have some of this information done by the 'pioneers' of planted tanks still available to us. 

In fact, 'thekrib.com' resides on the same server as GSAS.com and is loving maintained by our own GSAS webmaster even though the e-mail chat forum has been dormant for 15 years or more.


----------



## roadmaster

Well,It is news to me that the fluorite rank's low in CEC.
I am wondering what method/test produced the number's for CEC? 
Happily, I have been using the "special kitty plain cat litter " from Walmart for last several year's only because my tank's are largish and the fluorite would be too expensive for their size and my pocket.
Seem's the old adage that.. "Even a blind dog find's a bone now and then" applies.
Regret that I suggested the fluorite to have suitable CEC.(I think)
Used it for a long time in smaller tanks, but I mixed it with soil as I do with the Special kitty cat litter.
Would be happy in the future to suggest kitty litter for CEC capabilities and $$ saving's.


----------



## Oso Polar

Reply from Seachem support:


> Thank you for your email. I am not sure how their tests were performed or how they validated this data, but the proper testing methods were used by a University lab to check nutrient values for our Fluorite substrate. The publication you have referenced lists numbers that are not accurate for any of the components in Fluorite.
> 
> Since our lab tested values are vastly different from what was published in 2000 in this particular article, I would be concerned that perhaps their testing methods were not appropriate / accurate, or that they listed the improper substrate name for the number that corresponds to the varied specs in the chart. Either way, this information is inconsistent from our official lab findings.
> 
> That said, the CEC for our different Flourite varieties is likely less than 10 due to the non-porosity of the material. From my knowledge, CEC has somewhat of a negligible contribution to the success of a closed planted aquarium system, and it is not really a good indicator of the success one will have with a substrate, but take that as you may.
> 
> Flourite does however contain a wide variety of minerals that can be readily extracted by the root system of the plants and does not leach anything into the water, does not alter pH and does not adsorb or absorb any nutrients from the water column.


----------



## tapwater

Interesting read


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

> Thank you for your email. I am not sure how their tests were performed or how they validated this data, but the proper testing methods were used by a University lab to check nutrient values for our Fluorite substrate. The publication you have referenced lists numbers that are not accurate for any of the components in Fluorite.
> 
> Since our lab tested values are vastly different from what was published in 2000 in this particular article, I would be concerned that perhaps their testing methods were not appropriate / accurate, or that they listed the improper substrate name for the number that corresponds to the varied specs in the chart. Either way, this information is inconsistent from our official lab findings.
> 
> That said, the CEC for our different Flourite varieties is likely less than 10 due to the non-porosity of the material. From my knowledge, CEC has somewhat of a negligible contribution to the success of a closed planted aquarium system, and it is not really a good indicator of the success one will have with a substrate, but take that as you may.
> 
> Flourite does however contain a wide variety of minerals that can be readily extracted by the root system of the plants and does not leach anything into the water, does not alter pH and does not adsorb or absorb any nutrients from the water column.


Hi Oso Polar,

That you for sharing Seachems' reply with us. Although they do not state the CEC value for the Flourite product(s) they do say it is "likely less than 10". Possibly this is due to the inability of the product to adsorb (not absorb) nutrients from the water column. The ability of a material, such as substrate, to adsorb (gather to the surface in a concentrated level) nutrients on its surface is one of the key conditions necessary for a substrate to have a good cation exchange capacity (CEC).

Apparently Seachem missed the section in the article about testing. In the Planted Aquaria Magazine Summer 2000 issue the author does state the testing procedure and the EPA testing methods utilized:


> Testing
> 
> One analyst did all the testing. The same instruments were used for all samples, and testing took approximately one week to complete. This is important since methodologies used by individuals may vary. I initiated the research with a request for testing materials via The
> Aquatic Plants Digest (PAM) (http://[url=http://www.actwin.com/fish/aquatic-plants/]Aquatic Plants Mailing List[/url] index.cgi). I had several substrates of my own to start but tested a total of 25, consisting of commercial products, local soils/clays, and homemade blends, a very good representation of available candidates.
> 
> Testing consisted of measuring the soils’ pH, total leachable metals, and cation exchange capacity (CEC). Soil pH is important because it can influence the pH of your aquarium. Total metals are bound in crystalline structures. Materials release their metals at different rates, depending on the details of these structures. The hard, calcined clays have the ability to retain nutrients longer than the soft, moldable clays.
> 
> The CEC determination helps gardeners know which substances are
> more efficient at nutrient binding. CEC measures a reversible chemical reaction between a solid and a fluid in which ions
> may be interchanged from one substance to another. The values are
> expressed in milliequivalents per 100g and are the total sum of exchangeable cations of a substance. As long as a material has a measurable CEC, it should work well in an aquarium’s fertile environment.
> 
> The pH determination was done with equal amounts of test material and deionized water. The samples were shaken to mix thoroughly and allowed to settle before testing. _Testing was done with an Orion 720A pH/conductivity meter. Total metals were analyzed on
> TJA61E inductive coupled plasma (ICP) instrument. Acid digestion of samples was done according to EPA SW-846 Method 3050A. CEC determinations were done by Method 9081A of EPA SW-846. CEC extractions were also analyzed on the ICP. Samples were analyzed in their original forms. Care was taken to analyze them as they would be used by aquarists. Note that crushing would increase the surface area and may change the parameter values here._


I checked and Seachem had the University of Georgia do the testing on their substrate using a Plasma Emission Spectrometer following procedures in EPA Method 6010. EPA Method 6010 deals with using inductively coupled plasma-atomic emission spectrometry (ICP-AES) to determine trace elements in solution. Jamie Johnson also used ICP testing for his analysis using EPA SW-846 Method 3050A and the results were posted in the table. Apparently no CEC testing was done by Seachem.

Seachem Flourite Red Mineral Composition









The differences in the two Seachem Flourite substrate samples as well as possible differences in the two EPA testing methods may account for the variances in the PPM values for the various nutrients. The only CEC testing seems to have been done by Mr. Johnson and published in PAM Summer 2000.


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## jeffkrol

Wouldn't sweat any discrepancies short of an "order of magnatude" difference.. i.e one shows 10ppm another 100ppm

Bump: Wouldn't sweat any differences short of "order of magnitude" differences.. Like 100ppm vs 1000ppm..\

Oddly enough many of the numbers in table 1, multiplied by 2 is pretty close to the numbers in the above table.


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## Hilde

bmize89 said:


> And black diamond blasting sand will support a carpet of star rupens, monte carlo etc?


My Echinodorus tenellus are not doing well in it. Just planted Pogostemon Helferi in it.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Hilde,

Black Diamond blasting sand is 99%+ coal slag, a glass-like material. It has no nutrients, no CEC, and it is basically like sand and gravel. You will need to add nutrients for your plants to grow well.


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## Hilde

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Hilde,
> Black Diamond blasting sand is 99%+ coal slag, a glass-like material. It has no nutrients, no CEC, and it is basically like sand and gravel. You will need to add nutrients for your plants to grow well.


I do! Since it grows very low to the ground I wonder if the coal is having a negative affect on this plant.


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## audioaficionado

There are no organic compounds or much carbon in this material. It all got burned off.


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## roadmaster

Black diamond is pretty much inert ,and I use it as cap material over soil/peat/clay mixture with good result's in my low tech tank's.
I just wanted a black sand like substrate cap that was cheap $ 8.00 for 50 lbs.I also dose small amount of NPK and Iron chelate once a week or two.
I also think there must be very little in silicates In the black diamond, for I hardly ever see diatoms that I see with playsand.


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## APynckel

Can any plants grow directly in black diamond? I am getting ready to go grab a bag or two for my 33 gal cube. I want it for its uniform color and size, but I also want some plants. I am not above using root tabs, however.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi APynckel,

Yes, plants can be grown in Black Diamond but because it is inert you will need to fertilize. Root tabs are certainly an option but may not be sufficient depending upon the plant species you want to grow. Be careful, Black Diamond blasting sand is very hard and if when cleaning the glass you inadvertently get some Black Diamond between the sponge and glass or acrylic it will cause scratches.


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## APynckel

Noted. Thank you for the heads up.

I am probably looking to do a mat of dwarf hairgrass, maybe some red plants for the background. Like an alternanthera reineckii mini or something of the like.


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## Hilde

roadmaster said:


> I have a low light 29 gal shrimp tank with bottom layer of *Osmocote* (about three table spoons) followed by approx one inch of top soil right out of the bag,then a layer of unscented clay cat litter (about one inch) ,followed by nylon mesh cut to fit inside diameter of tank and finally,, around two inches of Black Sand.


There are few different types of osmocote ferts. Are you talking about the flower and veg 1 or indoor and outdoor 1?


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Hilde,

The Osmocote product that is typically put in gel caps and used in the substrate of aquariums is *Osmocote Plus*.


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## Spike Cover

Hi all,

I'm a newbie in the sense of (informed) planed tanks. I've been a fish geek most of my life, starting in my toddler years thru to today at 76. I've taken a break from aquariums for about 15 years (moved into Koi) and have gotten my toe back in the water in the last few years with a few Fluval Edge (FE) mini tanks. I'm trying to plant a FE 12gal now. Bought Diana Walstad's book, _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_, and am trying to wade thru it as I write this. The author seems very smart, educated and informed, but also very obviously and admittedly down on hi-tech in favor of low-tech. In the book she frequently advocates plain old garden soil topped with something to keep it in place, like gravel. This interests me in that I'm admittedly lazy and seek to enjoy (quiet contemplation) more than maintain (work) my hobby.

I've started plowing thru this thread and really appreciate the starter post that is apparently continually updated with info from the folks who post here.

Also, I know it's a pain to have folks not read what's posted and ask questions that have already been answered. So before somebody posts "RTFM," let me tell you that I searched "walstad" and found nothing. So a few questions:



Is this forum familiar with Walstad and, if so, what are the opinions about the methods she advocates?

And the bigger question: what methods are advocate here for minimal work but okay (not even close to spectacular) results?

My thanks in advance,
Spike

PS, since almost everybody likes pix, I'll add a few.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi @Spike Cover,

Welcome to TPT!

You've got a few years on me....about a decade and I too took a sabbatical from the hobby for about 10 years and came back 8+ years ago because of the advances in planted tanks.

There are many forum members that do Walstad tanks; on this forum you will find most of the posting in the "Low Tech" sub-forum. You could also do a search for 'dirted tank'. Also on Aquatic Plant Central (APC) check out the "El Natural" sub-forum.

A low tech, dirted (or non-dirted) tank can certainly look good and not need CO2. If you want to limit the amount of maintenance for a low (or high) tech tank plants such as Anubias, Cryptocornes, and the various Java Ferns (Microsorum pteropus) do not require a lot of upkeep and look good.

Low tech (not dirted) 10 gallon









High Tech low maintenance with Microsorum pteropus 'Trident' and 'Windelov' along with Cryptocornes


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## Spike Cover

Roy,
Thanks.... Spike


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## Planteck

*The Last Reply*

Great reference, great thread.


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## DigityDog70

Very cool, and helpful, thanks for posting this.


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## Sorg67

Very helpful thread. Addresses a lot of my issues, although raises as many questions as it answers. But I like subjects like that. There are no "right" answers, just an array of pluses and minuses. Choose your priorities.



Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @Spike Cover,
> El Natural" sub-forum.


These look like what I am picturing in my 40 gal breeder tank. Can I do this in a low tech tank with pea gravel substrate? Will I need to add a lot of nutrients? Would it be better to have a soil substrate? Will I need CO2? I am thinking big tank with few fish and sparse plants to begin easy.


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## APynckel

Sorg67 said:


> Very helpful thread. Addresses a lot of my issues, although raises as many questions as it answers. But I like subjects like that. There are no "right" answers, just an array of pluses and minuses. Choose your priorities.
> 
> 
> 
> These look like what I am picturing in my 40 gal breeder tank. Can I do this in a low tech tank with pea gravel substrate? Will I need to add a lot of nutrients? Would it be better to have a soil substrate? Will I need CO2? I am thinking big tank with few fish and sparse plants to begin easy.


Every equation has at least 2 sides


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## Sorg67

And sometimes you have to solve more than one equation simultaneously.

I am going to like this site. I like how you guys roll.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi @Sorg67,

Sorry for the delayed response, I was having some hospital tests done the last few days.

The picture at the top of the post is low tech, with no CO2.

The picture at the bottom is a different tank with CO2. That said the Microsporum pteropus (java ferns 'Trident' and 'Windelov') should grow fine in low tech. The the Syngonanthus sp. in the tank does require CO2 and the Marsilea minuta may not do well in a low tech tank.


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## JamieB0414

I’m new here, and new to planted tanks. Ive usually done gravel or river rock, with any plants pinned in place with a larger rock or free floating. I found this forum because I decided to try planting a tank for breeding guppies, and I was researching basic kitty litter, which is used often in planting water lillies, which I have. I’m on a pond forum, and all about ponds in warm weather! I like low tech, I don’t want to have to do much more than fertilize on rare occasion, water changes, and enjoy my fish. I’d love to try a planted tank, which will help pull excess nutrients from the water, with out spending a lot, and it looks like non clumping, scent free litter is what I can get locally. Small rural area, the closest pet store that sells anything other than feed/ leashes, and basics is over an hour away. And by basics, I mean what any basic big box store would have, the colored gravel, cheap filters, etc.


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## Desert Pupfish

JamieB0414 said:


> I’m new here, and new to planted tanks. Ive usually done gravel or river rock, with any plants pinned in place with a larger rock or free floating. I found this forum because I decided to try planting a tank for breeding guppies, and I was researching basic kitty litter, which is used often in planting water lillies, which I have. I’m on a pond forum, and all about ponds in warm weather! I like low tech, I don’t want to have to do much more than fertilize on rare occasion, water changes, and enjoy my fish. I’d love to try a planted tank, which will help pull excess nutrients from the water, with out spending a lot, and it looks like non clumping, scent free litter is what I can get locally. Small rural area, the closest pet store that sells anything other than feed/ leashes, and basics is over an hour away. And by basics, I mean what any basic big box store would have, the colored gravel, cheap filters, etc.


Welcome to TPT! If you read through the substrate threads here, there are mixed reports on various brands of kitty litter. Some apparently dissolve into clay pretty easily, and the same brands aren't always consistent in quality by location or batch. You might try SafeTSorb--which is basically kilned kitty litter that's much more consistent, and seems to hold its shape for a number of years. It's cheap, looks like natural gravel, has a high CEC (cation exchange capacity) so it holds nutrients, and can even lower KH & PH initially--though that wanes over time. Not sure where you are, but most hardware type stores will carry it. Tractor Supply is one that always has it. Lots of posts on here about STS, so do some reading, look at pics, and see what you think. 

Good luck!


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## Kubla

Spike Cover said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm a newbie in the sense of (informed) planed tanks. I've been a fish geek most of my life, starting in my toddler years thru to today at 76. I've taken a break from aquariums for about 15 years (moved into Koi) and have gotten my toe back in the water in the last few years with a few Fluval Edge (FE) mini tanks. I'm trying to plant a FE 12gal now. Bought Diana Walstad's book, _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_, and am trying to wade thru it as I write this. The author seems very smart, educated and informed, but also very obviously and admittedly down on hi-tech in favor of low-tech. In the book she frequently advocates plain old garden soil topped with something to keep it in place, like gravel. This interests me in that I'm admittedly lazy and seek to enjoy (quiet contemplation) more than maintain (work) my hobby.
> 
> I've started plowing thru this thread and really appreciate the starter post that is apparently continually updated with info from the folks who post here.
> 
> Also, I know it's a pain to have folks not read what's posted and ask questions that have already been answered. So before somebody posts "RTFM," let me tell you that I searched "walstad" and found nothing. So a few questions:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this forum familiar with Walstad and, if so, what are the opinions about the methods she advocates?
> 
> And the bigger question: what methods are advocate here for minimal work but okay (not even close to spectacular) results?
> 
> My thanks in advance,
> Spike
> 
> PS, since almost everybody likes pix, I'll add a few.


The forum is very familiar with Diana Walstad. She's an active forum member. I'm not sure what happened on your search. Did you search the thread or the site? There are countless discussions on these forums about the "Walstad method" Try checking out the "Low Tech forum". There's a lot of folks here that do very successful, low tech, low work tanks.


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## Mud

Awesome post! This is so helpful. 
Can any of these be mixed? 

I have black sand (Imagitarium Sand Aquarium Substrate from Petco) but need to add another bag - or another bag of something else. I was thinking of Fluorite dark or Eco-complete.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi @Mud,

Certainly you can mix substrates however keep in mind that eventually finer and/or heavier substrates will settle to the bottom and the lighter/coarser substrate will try to rise to the top.


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## Mud

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @Mud,
> 
> Certainly you can mix substrates however keep in mind that eventually finer and/or heavier substrates will settle to the bottom and the lighter/coarser substrate will try to rise to the top.


Thanks!


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## mourip

Mud said:


> Awesome post! This is so helpful.
> Can any of these be mixed?
> 
> I have black sand (Imagitarium Sand Aquarium Substrate from Petco) but need to add another bag - or another bag of something else. I was thinking of Fluorite dark or Eco-complete.


I had very good success with 100% Fluorite. The first few months and the last few were tough. 

I did not know that eventually Fluorite decomposes to form a sort of compacted mud. I did get almost 5 years from it however... probably too long


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## nightpaws

mourip said:


> I had very good success with 100% Fluorite. The first few months and the last few were tough.
> 
> I did not know that eventually Fluorite decomposes to form a sort of compacted mud. I did get almost 5 years from it however... probably too long


This is good to know as I just started a flourite substrate. I did not know it needed to be very very thoroughly pre-rinsed, so my first month was rough as well.


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## Kubla

mourip said:


> I had very good success with 100% Fluorite. The first few months and the last few were tough.
> 
> I did not know that eventually Fluorite decomposes to form a sort of compacted mud. I did get almost 5 years from it however... probably too long


Flourite will not decompose into mud in any of our lifetimes. You may have confused a post about the kitty litter which will decompose into mud.


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## Blue Ridge Reef

Yeah, I've got 2 125s set up with Flourite that have been running for 15 years. It's never broken down in my own tanks.


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## mourip

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Yeah, I've got 2 125s set up with Fluorite that have been running for 15 years. It's never broken down in my own tanks.


Good to know. Actually I think that my issue was that I had a large part of my tank that I should have replanted and vacuumed. I think that what I was seeing was accumulated detritus/mulm. During the last 6 months before tank breakdown I was having algae issues. I think that I had let the organics build up.

I have a new tank coming today and I think that fluorite will be used, at least for the base.

Thanks for the input.


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## Whiskyman23

*Best soil for Detroit Municipal water*

I am full on noob here.

I stay around Plymouth and read online that one of the factors for choosing planting soil is softness of water. Some soils will make the water softer some will not. Based on your experience what is the best soil for Detroit municipal water? 
I only planning for a plant based aquarium, no livestock.


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## Greggz

Whiskyman23 said:


> I am full on noob here.
> 
> I stay around Plymouth and read online that one of the factors for choosing planting soil is softness of water. Some soils will make the water softer some will not. Based on your experience what is the best soil for Detroit municipal water?
> I only planning for a plant based aquarium, no livestock.


I grew up in Plymouth and live now in Novi. I'm on a well and use RO water, so not sure of local water hardness. Have you tested KH/GH?

Active substrates like Amazonia Aquasoil and Landen will lower KH and pH. Inert substrates like gravel and sand do not. Most plants in general prefer lower KH, but there are still lots that will do fine in higher KH too.

You can have a great tank with either. It's still all about light, ferts, CO2 and tank maintenance.

Good luck and consider starting a journal sometime.


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## Skayell

Be careful with ‘city/municipality/treated’ water. Depending on the treatment plants practices, the parameters can change daily. Some plants add crushed lime to raise the pH. Some plants use sodium hydroxide. There are probably other additives used to raise the pH. But, these agents are often added only a couple of times a week, causing terrific swings in pH, GH, KH. Where I currently live, the pH, usually around 7.8, is sometimes so high my High Range test (API) cannot read it, meaning it is over 8.8—pretty darned alkaline. The chlorine/chloramine values can be different day to day.

If you are using treated tap water, obtain and read your city’s *annual water quality report.* That will let you know what’s really going on with your water, like are there heavy metals (copper, lead, etc.), PCB’s, what the chlorination max/minimum readings are. High and low pH. Other important things you probably need to know if you’re going to use tap. BUT, the report gives you the values of the water leaving the treatment plant. Some reports give the values (or a subset of the readings, like copper and lead) for a few locations around the town. The building where you live can also have parameters quite different than the treatment plant’s. A very old house/apartment building can accumulate quite a bit of copper and/or lead in the pipes overnight (or a long workday if you’re not telecommuting right now.) Depending on what city you live in, where your water comes from before it us treated, how rigorous and diligent the treatment plant lab is, what the pipes are in your area, if there have been any breaks in the lines that require a shock-dose of chlorine, your tap water might be a roll of the dice. If you really love your fish, shrimp, plants, invest in a RO/DI unit. They’re not hard to install, although the manual for ours kind of sucked.

Oh, and if you find they’re not adding chloramines as a pre-treatment (the usual use), they are likely using chlorine dioxide (CLO2). It didn’t say that in our WQR, I had to look for that elsewhere.


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