# Ricky Cain comments on eco-complete



## co2 (Sep 13, 2004)

banderbe said:


> Ricky said that the substrate "gives out" over time


The thing is... any substrate will "give out" over time. The nutrients in ADA substrates do not magically last forever. You will always have to fertilize the water column and/or substrate eventually. Plus... Eco Complete does not physically break down like ADA's do, ADA substrates eventually disintegrate into a clay-like substance (after a couple years I have heard), so in a way you could say that ADA substrates don't last as long.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the ADA substrates and will be trying some out soon. I "think" that the real advantage with ADA substrates is for short term setups... you don't need to fertilize the water column at first and they seem to grow plants very well and with little algae. 6 months later you can tear the tank down, add more Power Sand, and start all over. If you have a couple tanks and use this strategy, after a couple years you will have a whole catalog of algae free tanks. This is in contrast to using Eco Complete, ADA or any substrate and keeping tanks setup long term, where you will have to rely on water column fertilization and/or supplementing the substrate.


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## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

A properly mineralized soil substrate will last for years and years with no dosing. I'll be setting up a tank with such a substrate in late January hopefully and I'll try to keep you posted.


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## co2 (Sep 13, 2004)

banderbe said:


> Which raises another interesting question, how long does a planted tank "live"? Do minerals from hard water build up in the substrate and compaction of the substrate eventually lead to the demise of all planted tanks after a year or two?


I think it really depends on what plants you are talking about. Some, like Toninas and HC, seem to be really picky. The only pictures that I have seen of really healthy Toninas are in fresh ADA substrates. Most stem plants are not picky at all. Then of course there are plants like Java Fern, mosses, anubias, etc that aren't even rooted in the substrate, so you can't really answer the question of "how long a planted tank live?" that generally. For many tanks I think it's a good idea to periodically stir and vacuum the substrate, it doesn' have to be very often, maybe anually? You can do it by sections so that you aren't doing the whole tank at once. If you periodically stir/vacuum it, a substrate like Eco Complete should last a long time. You will have to fertilize the water column, and for some plants like sword supplement the substrate.


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## co2 (Sep 13, 2004)

AaronT said:


> A properly mineralized soil substrate will last for years and years with no dosing. I'll be setting up a tank with such a substrate in late January hopefully and I'll try to keep you posted.


You are talking about a low light/non-CO2 tank right? Those are a completely different animal than the high tech tanks that are the norm on PT. I don't know much about the low tech soil tanks, but "years and years with no dosing" seems optimistic to me.


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## random_alias (Jun 28, 2005)

It sounds like he got an earful of marketing pitches during his visit and completely fell for them. 

Just to make sure people don't think I'm biased, I use Aquasoil in my tanks. But still, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.


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## esarkipato (Jul 19, 2005)

banderbe said:


> 2) he said that rooted plants and especially the quicker growing ones like glosso will extract all the nutrients from the eco-complete and in time (not sure how long) you will have what amounts to inert, nutrient free substrate in your tank, and you will be forced to supplement the substrate with root tabs, etc.


I'm wondering if he is even considering the buildup of detritus in the substrate. Feces and uneaten food sink down in there and become nutrients for plants. AND, I know that Eco-complete has a very high CEC rating, which means it can bind and store the nutrients from the detritus very well.

On that note, the 29gallon tank I inherited from a freind has been set up for 4 years running, and rooted plants do GREAT in there because the substrate (mostly just river rocks 2-3mm) is chalk full of detritus!

EDIT: I don't think that Ricky Cain would argue that ADA soil tanks wouldn't need water column fertilization for years! If he would, he is definitely in love with Amano and would do anything of his bidding LoL


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## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

co2 said:


> You are talking about a low light/non-CO2 tank right? Those are a completely different animal than the high tech tanks that are the norm on PT. I don't know much about the low tech soil tanks, but "years and years with no dosing" seems optimistic to me.


Nope, I am talking about high light and pressurized CO2. You are thinking of non-mineralized soil tanks in which case you would go low tech. The process of mineralizing the soil breaks down any organics in the soil. You don't use pure soil either. You only use 1" on the bottom and cap it with something inert.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=7721&highlight=soil+substrate

If you read the 2nd post in that thread that is the basic recipe for the substrate I'm going to use. Here's a picture of a tank that's using it with high light and CO2 addition:
http://www.gwapa.org/membergallery/albums/album07/67Z_Contest_o.sized.jpg


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## co2 (Sep 13, 2004)

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

co2 said:


> You are talking about a low light/non-CO2 tank right? Those are a completely different animal than the high tech tanks that are the norm on PT. I don't know much about the low tech soil tanks, but "years and years with no dosing" seems optimistic to me.


My record was about 10 years, with limited water column dosing and no additions to the substrate, mostly because I favor crypts over stems. The record ended because I took down the three 30 gallon tanks in favor of a 65 and 75. I did, however, leave the substrate in the 30's for the new owners at their request. They probably have crypts popping up everywhere in those tanks. :icon_bigg 

A few changes to that 'recipe' Aaron linked to 
don't use Ironite, use a couple tablespoons of trace mix from Greg Watson instead, this charges up the clay,
only use the chickgrit if you want a white substrate. 

The aquarium Aaron linked to is a 10 gallon I entered in to an AquaBotanic 'scaping contest a few years ago. You can tell by looking at the Ludwigia arcuarta on the back right that I didn't dose NO3 much. :icon_redf
http://www.aquabotanic.com/contest2004/tank_59/Tank_59_Details.htm


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Before I lost my old email I had a reply from Carib-Sea about the expected life time of Eco-Complete. I did however post it here for anyone who wants to search for it.

The basic answer is that the substrate will last the lifetime of anyone reading this message today.

And unless you are using marbles as a substrate any of them are going to have grains of different sizes.

Sounds like Ricky was drinking the Kool-Aid.


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## m.lemay (Jul 28, 2002)

Rex Grigg said:


> The basic answer is that the substrate will last the lifetime of anyone reading this message today.
> 
> And unless you are using marbles as a substrate any of them are going to have grains of different sizes.
> 
> Sounds like Ricky was drinking the Kool-Aid.


LOL, I've actually grown plants in a tank with marbles for a substrate. It's called hydroponics. 

Substrate can be used over and over provided they don't break down into mush, that's if you dose the water column. 

If you don't dose the water column just about any substrate will wear out over time.

I have a 29 gallon filled with black beauty blasting sand and the plants grow just fine. I didn't even rinse it. The fish are fine. It's under $10 for 100lb bag.

Marcel


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## Marc (Oct 13, 2004)

m.lemay said:


> Substrate can be used over and over provided they don't break down into mush, that's if you dose the water column.


The only thing negative thing about ADA soil, it turns to mush. Ive seen it first hand. You can still use it...but if you disturb it- it gets messy.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Banderbe,

It sounds to me like Mr. Cain has made the most common and unintelligent error of this hobby: offering opinion on something he has never tried. I've been making extra efforts to stop making this error, myself :-\.


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

unirdna said:


> Banderbe,
> 
> It sounds to me like Mr. Cain has made the most common and unintelligent error of this hobby: offering opinion on something he has never tried. I've been making extra efforts to stop making this error, myself :-\.


Possibly. Or maybe Mr. Amano told him. Never know. And I think whatever Mr. Amano says about planted aquaria is pretty much the gold standard.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

I would agree that Amano knows a lot. When it comes to aquascaping, imo, he has no equal. But, I have learned very little from his articles and books re: botany, sedimentology, plant physiology.


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

My oldest tank has some kind of fracted clay stuff that I bought at an LFS once and never saw it again. I set the tank up in 1998 and never supplemented it beyond an iron tab on occasion when the swords looked a bit anemic, never vacuumed it either and never had a problem until two years later when we moved, I didn't clean the gravel but obviously I took it out for the move. When we got settled, I set the tank back up and it took maybe a month for things to settle down, and then no problems for 5 years until we moved again, and then basically the same problem, been set up since April, and aside from using Watsons stuff according to my lazy less than scientific shotgun EI dosing, no problems.

I have heard Amano talk about having to replace substrates, never paid much attention to him because it conflicts with my own experiences and I don't think a well behaved substrate should have that much of an impact on the water column.

But that's just my opinion.


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

AaronT said:


> A properly mineralized soil substrate will last for years and years with no dosing. I'll be setting up a tank with such a substrate in late January hopefully and I'll try to keep you posted.


I guess I would ask what you consider to be a "properly mineralized soil substrate" and how you acheive it.


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

co2 said:


> You are talking about a low light/non-CO2 tank right? Those are a completely different animal than the high tech tanks that are the norm on PT. I don't know much about the low tech soil tanks, but "years and years with no dosing" seems optimistic to me.


If you can get years out of a substrate in a turbo charged tank, wouldn't it stand to reason that the slower growth in a low light, low tech tank would would result in slower depletion?

The only difference between between a soil substrate and fracted clay products essentially are the materials used, the processes by which detritus is broken down by aerobic and anaerobic bacteria into nutrients are virtually the same.


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

Ricky Cain said:


> the substrate has small particles that will settle to the bottom of the tank over time. Apparently this is not a desirable trait in a substrate.


 And just where does Ricky think the roots go ...Up ? :icon_roll 

Then he says it gives out but does not know in how long ? All heresay...



banderbe said:


> I think whatever Mr. Amano says about planted aquaria is pretty much the gold standard.


 Why ? If you had his resources and his money then you could accomplish the same Im sure. :wink:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I have 3 Aqua soil/ powersand substrates.
I have one I'm just treating like any substrate, and have dosed the water column like I normally do for a high light tank.
I also have a tank that gets ADA protocol.
The tank with the heavy water column dosing is doing better.
Neither have algae.

While critical of ADA soil, I also will say it does help in the start up phase for many folks. I think it is not a good product for folks that enjoy moving things around a lot or those seeking a longer term routine. 

But many don't like the same old set up after 1-2 years. 
But given everything, the ADA soil + powersand is good. 
Kitty litter was messy also, but it worked very well.

So is soil. By boiling soil for 15 min, you get very mineralized soil fast.
If the soil has high OM and you want to reduce that, heat slowly for 1-2 hours to remove the OM at 500F on a thin sheet.

You can do ti old fashion way, bacteria and aeration, or swirl the bucket for of mud every day etc for 3-4 weeks. 

Another option is soaking the Leonardite(after a decent pre rinse) in a macro/trace solution for a week, then use like powersand.

I think some macros added to the substrate is good for plants, nice to have both locations for the plant nutrients(Something I've suggested for awhile), a better level of redundancy as well as less transport of nutrients to roots. 

The growth of of the macro enriched water column seems they have a synergistic effect, not one or the other, or having both, as Amano has suggest will cause algae issues.

As with EI and most dosing routines, poor CO2, is 90% or more of the issue.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


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## kimrin (Feb 21, 2005)

I was there with you for that part of the discussion banderbe.
I think Ricky's point about the Bimodal thing was in regards to "hype". In any substrate the smaller particles drop to the bottom. Nothing new or different about that. Nothing wrong with it either unless you're using a layered substrate and want the finer stuff on top. 

I don't think he was picking on Eco-Complete in particular when he said it doesn't last, I took it as he doesn't think any substrate lasts forever. Who knows...maybe he's wrong on that one.


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## Ricky Cain (Jun 6, 2005)

banderbe said:


> 1) on the back of the eco-complete bag it says the substrate is "bimodal". Ricky found this interesting and upon further investigation found that it means the substrate has small particles that will settle to the bottom of the tank over time. Apparently this is not a desirable trait in a substrate.


The only reason I mentioned the term was because I find it humorous and its typical of the weird things marketing folks will come up with to get your cash. A bag of potato chips could be called bimodal. The smaller pieces settle to the bottom.


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## Ricky Cain (Jun 6, 2005)

random_alias said:


> It sounds like he got an earful of marketing pitches during his visit and completely fell for them.
> 
> Just to make sure people don't think I'm biased, I use Aquasoil in my tanks. But still, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.


I don't speak Japanese so I could have gotten an earful of cussing and would have known.


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

It is funny Ricky would say that, because the same arguement has been made of the Amano substrate products, that it becomes depleted. Eco Complete says the two particle size is a benefit. The finer particles on the bottom are supposed to be good for root hairs, and the larger particles help aerate the substrate. The most contested thing about Ecco Complete is their use of live bacteria and black water. Some people say that is useless. Doesn't Amano also use a live bacteria product? The biggest complaint has been from earlier this year they had a manufacturer run that had some contaminant in it that shot your pH way up. The manufacturer admitted this and was sending people new bags at no charge for those who asked for them. I presume that problem has been taken care of.


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## Ricky Cain (Jun 6, 2005)

unirdna said:


> Banderbe,
> 
> It sounds to me like Mr. Cain has made the most common and unintelligent error of this hobby: offering opinion on something he has never tried. I've been making extra efforts to stop making this error, myself :-\.


Sound like you are the one making the error. I have tried it.


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## Ricky Cain (Jun 6, 2005)

Buck said:


> And just where does Ricky think the roots go ...Up ? :icon_roll
> 
> Then he says it gives out but does not know in how long ? All heresay...
> 
> Why ? If you had his resources and his money then you could accomplish the same Im sure. :wink:


Yes they go up. The reason I can't say how long. I don't remember anything but MY experience and I not into keeping logs or retaining information for long periods. The key point here MY experience. As Tom says your mileage may vary.


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## Ricky Cain (Jun 6, 2005)

kimrin said:


> I was there with you for that part of the discussion banderbe.
> I think Ricky's point about the Bimodal thing was in regards to "hype". In any substrate the smaller particles drop to the bottom. Nothing new or different about that. Nothing wrong with it either unless you're using a layered substrate and want the finer stuff on top.
> 
> I don't think he was picking on Eco-Complete in particular when he said it doesn't last, I took it as he doesn't think any substrate lasts forever. Who knows...maybe he's wrong on that one.


Exactly, the hype was the point. Again, yes nothing last forever even the golden Aquasoil.


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## Ricky Cain (Jun 6, 2005)

*Signing off*

OK, I'm out. No more. When comments are misinterpreted and people start taking pot shots at your credibility one feels some urge to correct the issue. In this instance I could not resist.

I do not frequent forums or lists because I have better uses for my time than to sit at a computer and argue or continuously clarify myself. 

There will be no more commentary from me. Thanks for talking about me even if you believe me to be an idiot. At least I'll be a known idiot to avoide at all costs. :tongue: 

Peace to all.


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## co2 (Sep 13, 2004)

ADA... Eco Complete... they both have their own advantages, and at least they both look better than Flourite. That stuff is ugly


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## random_alias (Jun 28, 2005)

> I don't speak Japanese so I could have gotten an earful of cussing and would [not] have known.


LOL. I'm picturing you standing there, Takashi mumbling something, and all his assistants busting out laughing while he smiles at you politely.

That's like me standing in line at the grocery store here in the South. Luckily some Spanish words sound close enough to figure out.

:icon_bigg


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## Opiesilver (Nov 3, 2003)

Since Eco-complete is basically crushed rock, and a non-carbonate as well, I have a hard time believing that it wears out in a short time. It's great value is in it's CEC value and how it really slowly leaches traces.


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

My tank with Eco Complete is at the 2 year mark. About five months ago I had to remove every plant and object in the tank to catch (one by one) 80 baby ancistrus plecos. When I was done, I vacuumed the substrate. There was suprisingly little gunk and mulm. The water clouded about 1/4 as bad as I thought it would. And it hardly affected my GH and KH. Finally, the substrate looked and felt just as it did the day I put it in the tank. There was no compacting at all.

I'm sure it's a trade secret, but does anyone have any guesses or speculation on what Eco Complete is exactly? My understanding is that Carib Sea pays a sub contractor to mine the stuff, then it's crushed, cleaned, and packed in water (as far as I can tell). I wonder what mineral it mainly is.

One interesting thing I have noted is that Eco Complete causes a temporary KH/GH increase, while ADA Aqua Soil causes a temporary (I don't know how long exactly because I've never tried it) KH/GH decrease.


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

Ricky Cain said:


> OK, I'm out. No more. When comments are misinterpreted and people start taking pot shots at your credibility one feels some urge to correct the issue. In this instance I could not resist.
> 
> I do not frequent forums or lists because I have better uses for my time than to sit at a computer and argue or continuously clarify myself.
> 
> ...


Hopefully you didn't mind my posting about your comments. I just wanted to hear what others thought. Hopefully I accurately conveyed your comments.

I enjoyed your presentation a lot and hope you will return some day!

Best Regards,
Barry


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## rrguymon (Jul 10, 2005)

Who is Ricky Cain? I have never heard of him. I have eco in my tank and it sure seems to be growing plants nice for me. Sounds like he is in to marketing more than info. 

Rick


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

rrguymon said:


> Who is Ricky Cain? I have never heard of him. I have eco in my tank and it sure seems to be growing plants nice for me. Sounds like he is in to marketing more than info.
> 
> Rick


Google for him. He's an aquascaper and planted tank enthusiast who was invited by Takashi Amano to travel to Amano's gallery in Japan. He got to spend time studying under Amano and meeting other big names in aquascaping. He did an aquascape called "The Hill" that was the subject of some discussion.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Ricky Cain is quite accomplished and quite well known.

What happened to him in this thread was an absolute shame. 

Mike


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

I didn't know that the name Ricky Cain demanded such respect. That wasn't said in a sarcastic tone; I really didn't know. How would this had been different if I posted a thread stating how a member of my planted-tank community said that Flourite is nothing more than stained kitty litter. We took exception to banderbe's interpretation, not Mr. Cain's actual comments. I suppose I should have questioned the reliablility of the translation, but then again, I never heard of Ricky Cain, so I had no reason to believe he was held in such high regard.

No one flamed anyone after Mr. Cain made his presence and clarified his comments. I felt a bit sheepish after he showed up, and that's why I took his counterattack to my post with humility (even though it wasn't aimed at him, but rather the interpretation of his comments). I feel that everyone did this, and so, don't think a scolding is warranted.

This is the view from where I'm sitting.

In any event. I agree. We fly off the handle a bit quickly sometimes. With so much heresay floating around, one can lose patience (especially when our collective experience tells us differently).


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

unirdna said:


> I didn't know that the name Ricky Cain demanded such respect. That wasn't said in a sarcastic tone; I really didn't know. How would this had been different if I posted a thread stating how a member of my planted-tank community said that Flourite is nothing more than stained kitty litter. We took exception to banderbe's interpretation, not Mr. Cain's actual comments. I suppose I should have questioned the reliablility of the translation, but then again, I never heard of Ricky Cain, so I had no reason to believe he was held in such high regard.
> 
> No one flamed anyone after Mr. Cain made his presence and clarified his comments. I felt a bit sheepish after he showed up, and that's why I took his counterattack to my post with humility (even though it wasn't aimed at him, but rather the interpretation of his comments). I feel that everyone did this, and so, don't think a scolding is warranted.
> 
> ...



My "translation" was verbatim. What I see is that rather than reacting to my "interpretation" or my "translation", people on this thread have been making wild extrapolations, speculating baselessly, and slandering without foundation.

Note that Mr. Cain does not take exception to my post, but rather the slew of irresponsible comments that followed.


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

Momotaro said:


> Ricky Cain is quite accomplished and quite well known.
> 
> What happened to him in this thread was an absolute shame.
> 
> Mike


I agree it was. I hope that it was okay for me to make this post. I was 100% accurate in my initial posting. He said what I said he said. I'll note again that no where does he take exception to my transcription. It just seems like a lot of folks took that and ran with it, extrapolating from those comments far more than what was intended by Mr. Cain. I just wanted some other points of view.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

I made a reply to this post. I addressed two points bought up in the initial post. I replied with fact. What I saw was someone who was doing more of a sales pitch (for ADA products) than anything else. 

Sure substrates will deplete over time. But on this forum I had already posted a reply from Carib-Sea stating that the lifespan of Eco-Complete is measured not in years but in decades.

IMHO both the comments addressed in the initial post are not factual but are instead part of a well honed sales pitch.

I went and found the post with the reply from Carib-Sea. Here is the link if anyone cares to go back and read it.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

banderbe said:


> Note that Mr. Cain does not take exception to my post, but rather the slew of irresponsible comments that followed.


Good point. I hadn't noticed that point #2 was not clarified (only point #1). And, in this case, I still disagree - regardless of who I might offend.


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

Momotaro said:


> Ricky Cain is quite accomplished and quite well known.
> 
> What happened to him in this thread was an absolute shame.
> 
> Mike


Agreed. We all have a tendency to be a little quick on the trigger sometimes. This is a definite live and learn scenario.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Actually the question could have, and probably should have, been asked without quoting anyone. Make the question a random petstore worker and flesh out the answer to the discussion of EcoComplete's longevity. No one other than the thread author should think they can accurately comment on Ricky's answer if they were not there. The answer was spoken. Since the post was written it will lack all accessory meanings, tonalities, facial and body language. I know Ricky and he has a sense of humor that the post did not convey, i.e. his pointing out the 'hype' of a bimodal substrate was obviously lost on the poster. Enough is enough. Open a thread to discuss Ecocomplete if you want, this one is closed.


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