# Am I Ready For Crystal Red Shrimps?



## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

Tomorrow my bf will flood our 12G long tank. Horray! : ) 
15-20 days from tomorrow we will be getting shrimps from our really good friend Eric. So in order to make sure our setup is CRS ready...meaning (S - SS Grades) ready, here is what we have so far.

*Mr. Aqua 12 Gallon Long Tank.*
15lbs of Eco-Complete (Bottom) + 8lbs of Fluval Shrimp Stratum (Top) + 12 Osmocote Root Tabs buried 2-3 inches into the substrate. 7 piece of medium to small Seriyu Stones.
*Emersed Growth:* HC, HM, MM, DHG, Glosso, Tropica 049, Micro Sword, Mini Pellia, Downoi and HygroSunset.
*Emeresed Growth Time:* Start on 8.1.2011. End on 9.30.2011. (2 months. According to Tom Barr my Ammonia and Nitrate should be fully cycled by now).
*Light:* Finnex 13W CFL x 2
*Filtration:* 510 Zoomed Canister Filter w/ Premium Carbon-Ammonia Neutralizing Blend, Biomedia & Purigen.
*CO2 & Fertilizers:* Pressurized CO2 + Excel + Comprehensive Supplements.

*Projected Methods:* 
1.) We will be using 100% RO water to fill the tank. The TDS reading of our RO water is currently at 18. gH and kH are both at either 0 or 1, (can't really tell because when a drop is added, it already turns the water green and yellow respectively). Will add Fluval Shrimp Mineral Suppliment into our RO water until it reads 3-5 GH and 0-1 KH. Once that value is obtained, a TDS reading will take place. This will be our "clean water TDS".

2.) Once the tank is filled, we will need to recheck GH / KH within that day as well as TDS.

*So now, here are the questions:*
1.) How long should we wait before doing 50% water changes. Also, should it still be 100% RO w/ added supplements?

2.) We will have pressurized CO2 set up, should we run it at 3-4 bps right away or start low and gradually increase it to that? My goal is to run CO2 for no more than 1 month. I want to start off high so the CO2 needy plants can root itself better besides the 8 weeks emersed and slowly ween it down to 2-3 bps, 1-2 and finally 0.5 - 1 is my goal or just no CO2 completely. I hope bee shrimps don't feel the effect of CO2 if its only 0.5 - 1 bps.

3.) What should we dose. We have Seachem: Excel, Comprehensive Supplements, Iron, Phosphorus, Potassium and Nitrogen. Our goal is to maximize plant growth and minimal algae.

With all this into account, about how long should we wait until we can "safely" add CRS? Can we add Nerite Snails and Cherry Shrimps since day 1? (The RCS will only serve as algae / diatom eaters while the tank is being cycled, they will be removed once CRS are added).


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## sampster5000 (Oct 30, 2010)

I would not recommend any bee shrimp for this kind of set up. You can definitely try it but be ready for lots of random deaths. 

Take it slow! Dont add everything at once. 

All you need to fert is macros and micros. So if you are using seachem products this would be nitrogen, phosphorous, potassium, and flourish comprehensive. Since you're doing plants like baby tears I would hold on to the iron for if you see little growth. You dont need to dose excel if you are using a pressurized CO2 system. I would hold on to it if you ever want to spot treat some algae.

However much CO2 you want to pump in is up to you. If you want it to be easy, get yourself a drop checker which will tell you when there is a good amount of CO2 in your water. If not, just watch your plants and see how they react to less or more over time. 

If you are putting cherry shrimp in a tank just know that this is permanent. Even if you wanted to remove them, its impossible unless you completely take everything out of the tank and suck them up with a hose. They are a pain in the butt to get out. Go with something like an otocinclus catfish ONCE you get algae problems. 

When I had my high tech planted tank I lost 12/14 nerite snails. These were put in the tank several months after it was set up. They all died one after another in a few weeks time. I saved the last 2 and put them in my community tank in which I do nothing to alter water parameters. This tank is straight tap water and ornaments so the hardness is out the roof and pH is 7.6. They have been thriving and trying to mate for over a year now. What I'm saying is that I do not think they will last very long in a tank like this as they died out fast in mine.

Everything in your filter, except the biomedia, will not help this system. The ammo-carb will take out necessary nutrients that the plants will use for healthy growth, and the purigen will do the same/similar. All I use in my planted tanks are biomedia and coarse and fine filter pads.

Someone else will have to answer your RO questions as I've just started getting into using it. 

Again, take it slow! And get ready for a lot of plant trimming Lol.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Purigen only removes organics, not dosed nutrients, so it's fine for planted tanks. The other chemical media isn't neccessary though.

Also, my suggestion is not to use seachem excel, in my experience (and plenty of others) it kills many things (even some plants).


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

I might consider that Purigen is also ammonia scavenger and plant's would maybe take up ammonia much quicker.
With small bio-load that shrimp represent, plant's would use up waste produced by shrimp fairly quick so no need for chemical media except to maybe polish water.
Again ,,small bio-load,,, water clarity should not be an issue.
Spend money instead on foods,or more shrimp.:smile:


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

I think the main reason to my setup not being "bee-shrimp suitable" is the CO2 injection and the dosing. From everything else I think its fair enough to raise bees in yes? As for the CO2 injection and liquid ferts, its to ease the transition of all the emersed plants and reduce algae blooms. Once the tank seems established, hopefully by Nov. 1st the CRS will be ok?

Perhaps its best to get my "holding tank" ready for the CRS first before relying on putting all the CRS in my newly setup tank althought it is technically "cycled". 

My RCS tank is currently reading this, will adding S-SS shrimps be ok?

pH: 6.5
gH: 5
kH: 5
Temp: 72F
TDS: 340


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Yes, they won't die from those parameters, they just probably won't breed in there with a kh that high.


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

mordalphus said:


> Yes, they won't die from those parameters, they just probably won't breed in there with a kh that high.


Liam, that is really good to know. So how could I lower the kH while keeping the gH constant at around 5? Its a 20 gallon long low-tech tank, so how many % of its water should I replace with 100% RO water that is TDS 18 and 0-1 gH/kH? :biggrin:


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## Otto72 (Oct 1, 2010)

I love this forum, subscribed to this thread for future CRS reference


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## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

That seiryu stone will raise your kh/gh.. I think the others covered anything else I would add, good luck!


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## james1542 (Sep 8, 2011)

If your going to run CO2 I'd highly recommend the drop checker, I got mine from Liam in the power seller forum. I was dosing way too much CO2 before I got one, thankfully I got it under control before adding CRS.

I would think you could get away with the osmocote root tabs for ferts from what I hear, but I have not tried them yet.

I have heard excel kills shrimp, and there is no need for it with injected CO2.


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

Thank you for all the input so far. I believe the main problem is still the CO2 and Excel making this tank not "bee shrimp" ready. 

If 1 month from now, we only run CO2 at 0.5 - 1 bps and keep the dosing of nitrogen, phosphorous, potassium, and flourish comprehensive everytime we do water changes, would it be a CRS "ready and breeding" tank?


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

The most optimal and simple one would be a tank with something like fluval stratum along with some moss etc. Easy and pretty much zero on co2 and ferts.


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## sampster5000 (Oct 30, 2010)

You are always going to have trouble with them breeding in a tank that is constantly being injected with CO2 and ferts. This doesnt mean that you cant do it. It means that its going to be very difficult. Make sure to have constant oxygenation when the lights are off or they will all be on their sides when you wake up in the morning. 

So when you say that you want them to breed are you saying that you want them popping out enough babies to make some decent profit? Or do you just want to know that they are doing well and this can be shown by obvious reproduction? There is no doubt that they can breed in this enviroment but they will not do it as fast as if you set up a tank specifically for them and their needs. It can be hard to make a nice looking breeding tank but you can definitely make it happen!


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

I'm goin low tech with crypts and Taiwan moss.


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

Finally, a journal of all this work. 
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/tank-journals-photo-album/149896-miss-mys-mr-aqua-12-gallon.html
Enjoy them guys and perhaps give me feedback on any changes I may need? Thanks! : )


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

When can I start adding the white clouds and horned nerites based on my current water parameters in my journal? : )


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

How are my current conditions for these new additions?

3(A) Grade & 1 (S) Grade CRS

* TDS: 75ppm (before adding Fluval Shrimp Stratum) / 163ppm (after)
* Chlorine: 0
* Ammonia: 0
* Nitrate/Nitrite: 0 / 0
* Temp: 70-78F
* pH: 6-7
* kH: 2 / gH: 6 
* Lights on 8 hours per day (9:30AM-11:30AM) (2PM-5PM) & (10PM-12AM)
* CO2 is on 24/7 (1-2 bps)
* No fertilizer dosing

*My kH reads out 2 right after the water change, would it tend to go down later on by itself or will another water change be needed. The value is the same as the last 50% water change, any ideas why?*


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Maybe your KH test is old? I dunno.

If you're using 0 KH water to do a water change, and it reads the same before and after a WC, something is haywire.

The KH will go down though if you have aquasoil in there.


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

mordalphus said:


> Maybe your KH test is old? I dunno.
> 
> If you're using 0 KH water to do a water change, and it reads the same before and after a WC, something is haywire.
> 
> The KH will go down though if you have aquasoil in there.


My bf just did the retest just now, its weird that now the kH is up to 4 and gH is 8. He did it twice because of this odd reading. But could that be possible over just one night? 

The two things that were added since then is a small Manzanita branch (shown in my planted journal) that had been established and taken from another tank, and a small piece of cholla I got from you cut in 1/2. Its only a 3" piece with 1 inch diameter, I can't imagine that will change the kH and gH that much with just those two additions. TDS also now reads 200ppm, went from mid 160's to 200...

All this reading got me really confused now at the state I am in...???


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

From what I can find online:
http://aquariuminfo.org/crs.html
http://www.shrimpnow.com/content.php/133-Water-Parameters-pH-GH-KH-NO3-CO2

The added things should have decreased kH, not raise it by 2. Also CO2 does't effect kh or gH so I feel kind of lost...anything else it must be the kit...
Lot# for gH is 12/2009 and kH is 04/2010 (from what I've read online they should both still work fairly well)...


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

Doesn't co2 raise your kh by a small amount?

Probably mistaken...


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

What kind of rocks in there? seiryu raises Gh, kh and tds, so do some other Ada stones and lace rock


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

mordalphus said:


> What kind of rocks in there? seiryu raises Gh, kh and tds, so do some other Ada stones and lace rock


Liam, I have the same seiryu rocks in there as when I first filled it up. My bf checks Gh and kH every weeks since the tank was filled and they have been constant, unsure how it would shoot up so high just after adding the driftwood pieces though, if anything it "should" be going down shouldn't it? That is where we are troubled. Everything else is pretty much kept the same other than adding plants but those too shouldn't change any Gh or kH values...


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

But seiryu stones do raise Gh, kh and tds, so maybe that's your issue. Try putting one in a cup of water with a bubble stone overnight and see what it does to the water just to make sure.


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

mordalphus said:


> But seiryu stones do raise Gh, kh and tds, so maybe that's your issue. Try putting one in a cup of water with a bubble stone overnight and see what it does to the water just to make sure.


Bubble stone as in the aquarium air stones? Never heard of bubble stones before. Lol

I'll give it a try, but with the seriyu stone already placed and tested for the last 2 water changes, only change is the TDS, the Gh, kh remained constant. It'll be weird how it would just suddenly change now out of the blue. :icon_frow


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

Just did a recheck and kH = 3 / gH = 8 still :/


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Yah, I meant airstone. Same thing, it's a stone that makes bubbles 

Now you asked why it would take a few weeks for it to raise the KH...

Well, that could be because your soil has been working hard to buffer it, and now it's losing the battle.


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

mordalphus said:


> Yah, I meant airstone. Same thing, it's a stone that makes bubbles
> 
> Now you asked why it would take a few weeks for it to raise the KH...
> 
> Well, that could be because your soil has been working hard to buffer it, and now it's losing the battle.


Losing the battle? Oh no!!! My design will be ruined then. W/o Seriyu stones my tank would look...kinda of weird. I can't even imagine it :icon_cry:

Would the stone stop making the the kH/gH go up over time?...if so, how long is that "time"? : (


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Make sure it's the stone by doing the cup test first. If it's the stone, switch to a different kind and sell the seiryu on swap n shop.


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

mordalphus said:


> Make sure it's the stone by doing the cup test first. If it's the stone, switch to a different kind and sell the seiryu on swap n shop.


So I sink the stone completely in the cup, put the air-stone in it, turn it on, let it sit, and then what do I look for?


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

test the water before, and then after 24 hours

I think you'll see a rise in KH and TDS


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

mordalphus said:


> test the water before, and then after 24 hours
> 
> I think you'll see a rise in KH and TDS


I haven't gotten a chance to do this yet, but from all the readings online, it is most likely the stones. However, from the articles, the shrimp keepers usually just remove the stones once they see the rise if TDS and gH, but don't know of its effect over time. Like any other additions to the tank, would its effect eventually worn off over time?


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

It'll wear off when the stones have eroded into nothing. The stones are some kind of limestone, so they will consistently put out KH, TDS and GH. There is one option, which is to coat them in some kind of aquarium safe epoxy, then they couldn't put out any more calcium, but that would require drying them thoroughly and then painting them thoroughly.


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

mordalphus said:


> It'll wear off when the stones have eroded into nothing. The stones are some kind of limestone, so they will consistently put out KH, TDS and GH. There is one option, which is to coat them in some kind of aquarium safe epoxy, then they couldn't put out any more calcium, but that would require drying them thoroughly and then painting them thoroughly.


Liam, I guess my options have came to and end then. The only option my bf mentioned is doing weekly 15-20% water changes. He is trying to set up a water changing method that takes less than 30 minutes to do every Monday, but would that even matter?

I remembered you told me, they breed in 0-1KH, 5-6GH and pH of around 6.5 and temps around 70-78F.

If, if example, those are the parameters on Monday after a water change, but by Saturday/Sunday, kH becomes 3 and gH becomes 8 followed by a water change that brings kH back down to 0-1, and gH of 5-6, will this fluctuation be dangerous or "ok"?


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

That would be OK for adults, but shrimplets would have a hard time surviving. Can you not clear coat the rocks? Would take only a day


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

mordalphus said:


> That would be OK for adults, but shrimplets would have a hard time surviving. Can you not clear coat the rocks? Would take only a day


Liam, really? Would you recommend a good link or brand of silicone to do so? Also, it won't make the stone look weird right, as in making the rock not have the natural look?

We would love to try if that will indeed help shrimplets survivability : )


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

mordalphus said:


> That would be OK for adults, but shrimplets would have a hard time surviving. Can you not clear coat the rocks? Would take only a day


This is interesting, isn't it Liam?
http://socalaquascapers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6041
"i agree. i have about 20lbs of them in my 50 gallon and my crystal shrimp are thriving and breeding. i don't even change my water every week either."


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

This too by Tom Barr: http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/5068-EI-dosing-with-Crystal-Red-shrimp-over-a-year


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Well give it a shot then, just forget about all the hardness testing, as it wont do you any good, lol.

Also 20 lbs in a 50 gallon tank, and 10 lbs in a 10 gallon tank is a bit different,like you said, something is raising your hardness FAST.


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

mordalphus said:


> Well give it a shot then, just forget about all the hardness testing, as it wont do you any good, lol.
> 
> Also 20 lbs in a 50 gallon tank, and 10 lbs in a 10 gallon tank is a bit different,like you said, something is raising your hardness FAST.


Lol. Liam, it sounds perfect and everything but its not worth the risk and just go with it you know? It is just something good to know that people do have success, that is all. More of just a support in a way that it won't be TOO bad, just more difficult I would assume :biggrin:

When my bf bought the stones, he hand picked the cleanest ones and tried to find ones that don't have weird colors or attachments such as concrete like some of them do. The place he got them from is A&B Bonsai close to my home in LA. 

Anyhow, he soaked them in vinegar water, then salty water, then soap for about 5 cycles each, then baked them, boiled them, basically everything possible to get any toxicity out of them for close to 1 month before even adding them to our emersed tank.

The total weight of all the stones are 3lbs, so in a 12gallon tank, that is only 25% stone/gallon ratio compared to 40% for the 20lb and 50 gallon : )


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Nice! However 12 gallons changes parameters much faster than 50, so you will see changes quicker. Did you ever find a place with the epoxy?


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

mordalphus said:


> Nice! However 12 gallons changes parameters much faster than 50, so you will see changes quicker. Did you ever find a place with the epoxy?


I've looked them up online and it appears that it should be "aquarium safe" epoxy risen. All the ones I found so far that is "affordable" doesn't say its aquarium safe. The ones that are, even on eBay, is close to $90 for just a 1.5gallon bottle. Why is this stuff so expensive?


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

Decided to just remove the stones afterall. Will spend another week trying to "cure" the stones in the best way possible, if the payoff seems to - still then I'll just keep them out.


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