# male Guppy with "Fish Tuberculosis"



## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Fish TB is basically impossible to cure. Cull the fish, bleach everything you can. Do huge water changes on the plant tank, as a precaution. 

Ugh. Ugh. Ugh.


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## Splendid Splendens (Dec 22, 2010)

UGH is right!!!!
I already did a huge (50-60%) water change as scheduled for today (coincidence) so that's a relief. I added more of the fin guard, it is supposed to coat the fish to protect against bacterial and fungal infections and help to prevent internal parasites.

Hopefully everything with the tank will be alright - it's my favorite one and my only real planted tank!!


By cull do you mean remove/isolate or kill? I assume kill, or put out of his misery.
(I'm used to hearing the term when it comes to dogs dogs - not fish)

He's in his own little nano already, would it be alright to let him live his life out there?



Oh yeah, and does anyone know if this disease can pass on to my frogs? 
I've never seen or heard of it so I am unsure.


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## Splendid Splendens (Dec 22, 2010)

bump.......


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I would euthanize the sick fish. I'd imagine it's not a pleasant way to live for the fish.
It'll starve itself to death.

It probably won't affect the frog but it could be a carrier for other fishes. I'd let the frog live on its own without his fish friends.


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## SkyGrl (Jan 7, 2010)

i have dealt with this and its not pretty. i lost about 75% of my population to this. i did alot of research talked to alot of experts. i read many articles saying that bleach will NOT kill it. the only way to COMPLETLY eliminate it is with UV sterilization. you need VERY high levels to kill it. 

i talked to the U of Gluelph in Ontario, Canada which is the major vet school in canada. the professer i talked to in the fish facilty said that in her experience and the testing they themselves have done, they have found fish TB in every fish store/private fish tank they have tested. she said its just about impossible to get rid of and that fish will carry the disease in their bodies for a long time and you usually dont see symptoms in fish because their immune systems will keep them at bay. when you see a fish that is showing symptoms its usually due to:

a) bad water conditions
b) stress 
c) a secondary strain of fish TB being introduced to the tank that the fish does not have immunities built up against. 

i tried getting the health professionals involved, alerted the pet store i bought the fish from. none of them did anything about it. the sad thing is they did nothing to change their quarentine process. in canada we have no legislation to combat this so the LFS threated to sue me for slander basically... 

not fun. 

Amy


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## Splendid Splendens (Dec 22, 2010)

Thanks so much for your replies everyone, very much obliged!

Amy that does not sound fun AT ALL!
I am in Canada too and I know what you mean about having no resources against the pet stores, it's terrible!

I need to get this situation under-wraps!

Just to clarify - this fish HAS NOT been in contact with any of my other fish.

My concern is contamination because of the plants. 
They were from the same tank with said fish that my friend brought me. 
However, I rinsed them in tap water before adding them to the tank.
I also added Fin Guard (anti-bacterial/fungal solution) before and after adding the plants.
I also did a huge water change the next morning.

Does anyone know what I am looking at here?
Should I be ready for hell or what?

The fish is eating, but not much. 
How should I euthanize him? 
I have never had to do so with a fish before.

Honestly I don't really think separating my fish & frogs would make sense, just because the fish have been nipping at the plants (the "possible carriers") a lot and the frogs haven't really been hanging around them at all. So if the fish have it, they have it. 
I guess there's not much I can do?

UGH! At least the Bettas are safe.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If the fish is eating it may not be Fish TB. Or it may just be the early stages? It's a judgment call whether to euthanize it or wait and see what happens... I'd probably make the call based on whether the fish seems in discomfort and factor in the risk of contaminating myself and other tanks, though.

I have a tank that I believe is infected with Fish TB, and I'm just letting the fish live out what life they can... and then will keep the tank as an invert-only tank as it's heavily planted and I really don't want to break it down. This tank is also set up at my hubby's office, though, so zero risk of it cross-contaminating any of my other tanks. All trimmings out of this tank go straight in the trash (which is too bad b/c I pull some nice Hygro kompakt trimmings out of it on a regular basis!  )

Be VERY careful when working in this tank, though- a friend of mine (Esteroali, also a member here) actually has Fish TB right now after she worked in her tank with an open cut on her hand. She's had to see an infectious disease specialist and is taking the same medication you have to take if you get "regular" TB. Her hand is pretty swollen and she has bumps all up the inside of her arm.

She's keeping her tank going, though- she put a UV sterilizer on it, and said that her doctor thinks that the bacteria is so common that there wouldn't be any point breaking down and sterilizing her tank, that probably just about everyone's tank has it?

I certainly can't argue with an MD on the subject, but personally I'd probably have broken down, euthanized, and sterilized my own Fish TB tank if it were at home. Just because I have so many other tanks and fish I'd rather be safe than sorry.


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## Splendid Splendens (Dec 22, 2010)

Thanks for the info!

However, from what I've gathered fish TB is not transmittable to humans.


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## SkyGrl (Jan 7, 2010)

oh it is! be careful!! you can get severe lesions if you have an open cut! i was told this by a professional and obviously Lauras friend has it. i wouldnt want to take my chances. i have shoulder length vet gloves i was told to double it up by the local vet. 

my 0.02

Amy


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## Splendid Splendens (Dec 22, 2010)

Oh, I was reading about the skin infections and such that you can get from it.

I just thought what LauraLee meant was that I could get "regular" TB from my fish.

So should I just get this infected fish right out of my life?

What about the plants in my other tank - should I be worried?


Is it safe to say I am screwed?  Or what?


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## SkyGrl (Jan 7, 2010)

i wouldnt trust the plants to be honest with you. i would get rid of everything if you are SURE it is fish TB or if your willing to donate a separate hose/net/bucket. so you dont cross contanimate. if you keep it you will run the risk of infecting your other fish tanks. i kept mine up and running and am very careful when and how i put my hands in my tank. if i have an open sore ill wear gloves if not i dont. nothing gets switched out of that tank.. anything that goes in stays (plants/fish/substrate. everything will be tossed at the end of my fishes life.  

Amy


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

No, I didn't mean you can get "regular" TB from Fish TB, but the bacteria are related so aparently the same medication is used to treat either of them.

From the article I read, Fish TB especially congregates at the surface of the tank, but the bacteria will be over all the surfaces in the tank.

If you plan to keep the tank going, I'd put a UV sterilizer on it, and I'd be sure to keep the tank in VERY strict quarantine to reduce the risk of cross-contamination (no plants or equipment or livestock or ANYTHING that's been in that tank should ever go in another tank. I'd bleach any equipment you use if you need to use it on another tank.)


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Bleach is not the best to sterilize against Mycobacteriosis. 
Rubbing alcohol does the job, or a double treatment: Bleach first. Thorough rinse then rubbing alcohol. 

If you must keep that fish going, then total isolation, all separate tools, gloves EVERY TIME and throw away anything that cannot stand the bleach then rubbing alcohol treatment. UV sterilizer on the tank. 

You can try treating the fish with Kanamycin, it is the only fish antibiotic that I have ever read about that suggests it can cure the disease. I do not know if it can.


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## Splendid Splendens (Dec 22, 2010)

As of now "said guppy" is in a 1 (or so) gallon vase with pebbles and the plants he was transported here with. It is far away from my other tanks (in another room) and I won't be touching the water without gloves just to be safe.

I plan to just leave the guppy and see how it plays out from there.

Who knows, maybe (hopefully) I am just being paranoid and the guppy has a deformed/bent spine from birth and is suffering from transport stress.

He has livened-up a bit, is eating and swimming around a lot more - so we'll see!


Thanks again everyone!


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## Splendid Splendens (Dec 22, 2010)

Is there a way that I could have a water sample of my tank tested for Fish TB?


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Unfortunately, the only way to determine TB is through autopsy.


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## Splendid Splendens (Dec 22, 2010)

Oh okay. 
Well when the fish does die (which will happen eventually regardless of what he has) then who can determine if it is TB or not for me?


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## BlazednSleepy (Aug 21, 2010)

To be honest, Since most people in here are saying you cant do anything and you are expecting it to die. I say just euthanize it now.

Just boil water and drop him in. It's an instant death and humane.


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## esteroali (Oct 24, 2007)

*Fish TB is not fun*

Fish TB is not fun, funny thing is the only being affected right now is me. All of my fish seem healthy. The pathology report on my Peacock Gudgeon that originally was ill from the state lab came back as a granulomatous hepatitis. The acid fast stains used to ID Mycobacterium are still pending but I don't think there is any question that the fish had it from the other histopathology.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Your doc did confirm it was Fish TB that you had, right?

So your poor gudgeon had TB AND hepatitis? geez!

Oh- FrogFarm- If you can find some Clove Oil, that's a much better way to euthanize fish than boiling or freezing. Basically it's an overdose of anaesthesia so puts them to sleep relatively peacefully. (Damien, I read another thread on using it recently and I don't think we mixed up the stuff well enough into the water when we euthed your gudgeon )


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## esteroali (Oct 24, 2007)

*Fish TB in my hand*

Fish TB is hard to diagnose in people. The culture of Mycobacterium is very lengthy and difficult, it is typically diagnosed from history and clinical signs. Biopsy can also diagnosis the disease but that is a surgical procedure and often unnecessary. I opted not to get a biopsy because it was pretty much a no brainer. Few other things can present like fish TB, ascending subcutaneous nodules that follow lymphatics.
As far as the fish goes, it was the only fish I had that was ill. I euthanized it at work with clove oil, and since I am a vet I have access to pathology labs. The hepatitis was a result of the primary disease, fish TB. Fish TB is easier to diagnosis in fish since you can do post mortems, and I am not quite ready for that.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Ohh I didn't realize the hepatitis was caused by the Fish TB- that's really interesting!

Soooo.... you're saying we should send you off to a path lab if you croak in the near future, to find out for sure if you did in fact have Fish TB?


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## Splendid Splendens (Dec 22, 2010)

Hahaha you guys are crazy.
That's insane that you actually got infected with the fish TB, that scares me! lol

What if the fish doesn't have TB?
He seems to be getting better.
He is eating normally and swimming around a bit more.

I would post photos but my camera sucks so it's rather pointless.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If your fish seems to be recovering, I don't think it's likely it had Fish TB. I've never heard of a fish starting to eat again after it stopped.


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## esteroali (Oct 24, 2007)

*Eating*

Not to muddy the water but my fish with TB was eating to the day she took the express train to the Rainbow Bridge


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Color me wrong, then!


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## esteroali (Oct 24, 2007)

*Positive ID*

ID came back positive as Mycobacterium Marinum


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

LOL Guess you don't have to croak now so we can be sure.


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## Splendid Splendens (Dec 22, 2010)

Thanks for all the info, you've both been really helpful.

My plan is to be *very* careful with the tank I added plants until I am sure of what is going on. 


When the fish does finally croak, how can I find out if it was TB or not?
Send him to a lab or something? I have no idea......


Oh, and does anyone know if this disease will affect my African Dwarf Frogs?
I know they can carry it of course, but will it affect them?

As harsh as it may sound I care a lot more about my frogs than I do about the rest of the fish in said tank. I mean, don't get me wrong I would still be extremely sad, but the danios I purchased just to add life and use up the empty space in the tank, they are somewhat replaceable. My frogs on the other hand I have had forever and they are the main focus/reason for the tank in the first place.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

No idea about the frogs, sorry... maybe try on a frog forum to see if anyone there has heard of it?

And yes- you'd have to send some samples off to a lab to be sure. You might check with your local vet or personal doctor to see what it would cost, if you're really concerned?


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## Splendid Splendens (Dec 22, 2010)

Thanks.
Yes I am going to ask on the Frog Forum that I go on.

I will have to ask my local vet, I hope it isn't too expensive. 
I just want to know whether or not my tank is infected.

It would be a big shame, it's my first real planted tank.  I planned on using my trimmings from this tank to start out my others.


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## Eddie80 (Oct 29, 2010)

I have a tiger barb who has died. He looked thin, but ate well. I have also had 2 gold barbs and checkered barbs die on me too. Same signs: They looked thin, but ate well. And a Harlequin on another tank.

Fish TB? or just an intestinal parasite?

I gave my fish metronidazol.

Nothing...


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## Splendid Splendens (Dec 22, 2010)

The male guppy died yesterday but I can't send him away to be tested, at least not through the vet here, it will be much too expensive. I don't know what to do! 
He was not thin at all though, and his color had also improved greatly.

I have his corpse in the freezer so I could take some photos of it or something if anyone could help diagnose.


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## BradH (May 15, 2008)

I'm already OCD about germs. After reading that every fish tank, store, ect. has tb, I pretty much want to get rid of both of my tanks and shower in the strongest soap known to man for like a week straight. lol

I'm squirming right now thinking I have some bacteria on me.


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## Splendid Splendens (Dec 22, 2010)

Hahaha it's not that bad!


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