# Trickle Filters



## inkslinger (Dec 28, 2003)

Ask around the Tom Barr web site there are a few people that use sumps there for large tanks.

http://www.barrreport.com/


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*Trickle filter sump*

Bump

Have I mentioned lately how much I love this forum and everybody in it? :biggrin:


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## Cocobid (Feb 25, 2007)

Check out Michaels tanks his 240 is most impressive. Have been to his home and personally viewed the tanks. He also has a blog.
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/member.php?u=12799


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Finally after NOT finding any information on setting up and or maintaining a trickle filter on a planted tank I emailed Mr. George Booth. He kindly responded today and I'm very grateful.

Last night I surfed for hours, doing searches, running into one dead link after another unless it was saltwater related. The specifics of how to set it up still allude me with regards to how to minimize CO2 loss. 

But like the flipping Xfiles 'I know the answer is out there.'


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## nokturnalkid (Apr 3, 2007)

I think that all trickle filters will outgas your co2 as long as you are dissolving the co2 through a reactor. Maybe if you mist, you might stand a chance of keeping your co2 up. Another thing to consider is a enclosed sump. That should work fine. You may not even need to do a trickle filter since they are geared more towards biological filtration. All the bio filtration you are gonna need should come from your plants.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*Large CO2 loss? I now think "NOT"*

When properly set up, they do not remove much CO2.

http://aquaticconcepts.thekrib.com/Co2/index.htm#loss

I believe this man knows what hes talking about and CO2 loss is no longer an issue I'm concerned with:thumbsup:

I'll be setting up a trickle filter on my next tank instead of a canister. :icon_mrgr


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## nokturnalkid (Apr 3, 2007)

Hehe...shows what I know.


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## Cactus Bastard (Jun 5, 2007)

wkndracer said:


> When properly set up, they do not remove much CO2.


as long as "properly set up" means properly set up *for a planted tank* :icon_wink
Just be aware that most trickle filters are intended for reef tanks, and include far too much aeration. Our applications are different.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Cactus Bastard said:


> as long as "properly set up" means properly set up *for a planted tank* :icon_wink
> Just be aware that most trickle filters are intended for reef tanks, and include far too much aeration. Our applications are different.


The link posted above is to George Booth's article on set up for CO2 injection and a case study.


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## Cactus Bastard (Jun 5, 2007)

Yep, and he had geared his setup towards a planted tank. I just wanted to make sure nobody taking an off the shelf sump (intended for a reef tank), would expect negligible CO2 losses.


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## Aqua Dave (Feb 23, 2004)

The question you should be asking is why do you need a trickle filter? Reef tanks use it for biological filtration. A planted tank should have enough surface area within the tank for bacteria that you don't need supplemental biological filtration. Most people leave out the trickle part and just have a sump. If you go ahead with a trickle filter then you'll need to make sure it is fairly well sealed. Otherwise the CO2 will likely off-gas into the air. I ran a trickle filter on my 150 for a time and went through CO2 quickly. I switched to just a sump and now go several months on a CO2 tank.

David


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## ldk59 (Jan 30, 2009)

Short answer is "Yes, it will work" ... 

You'll have no need for the *tower* or *trickle* portion though. The sump however can be used as a very effective part of your planted tank filter system ... 

Sumps are a very convenient location for chemical and mechanical filter media as well as probes or other devices that you want located directly in the path of water flow but out of sight ...

HTH

Larry


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*Changes*

Web searches are making me dizzy LOL. Trickle filter to sump configuration changes. Trying to decide how many dividers and what size. Also the tower is leaving. The box is an Oceanic model 150plus with the tower centered on the side. No matter how I adjust my plans for compartment dividers I just don’t like the layout. I want to run end to end as that makes the most sense to me as opposed to a half tank loop back. The spill chamber for the tower is just too oddly sized and shaped to work out. Most search results either contain skimmers or more equipment than I think I'm needing. Wanting either to use a sock on the intake or use coarse foam, floss divider something to catch debris and easily dealt with for removal / replacement while in service then into a chamber containing moss and or grow area for starter plants. Then another media option possibly two and out to the display tank. So about 4 or 5 sections. The return pump is external through a bulkhead so the whole tank is available for division leaving a couple of inches for return clearance. 
Pump sizing also, thinking 1000gph is needed with 3’ of rise, piping and manifold restriction. If it’s too strong valves can be throttled to adjust that, just don’t want to be caught short.


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## sunfire99 (Apr 8, 2009)

Mike, Here's what I did on mine. You could use the area that I filled with bio media for a moss refuge/filter. I do that on salt tanks with Caulerpa algae. Since the baffle are really only being used to force the water down and back through the next stage of the sump, they can be closer than 2" as mine are (i want to get a hand in to clean if needed). Many reefers are now using 1" baffles in an attempt to control bubbles which aren't nearly the problem for f/w. It's interesting you mentioned the moss grow area as I had considered it, but decided I wanted to keep the sump barebottomed to help control buildup of detritus which seems to collect badly in sumps IME. You will almost always need more pump than you think for the return. Go big and ball valve it down if needed.










You're at the fun part of sump design, getting to make it exactly how you want it., Good luck.


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## gtriever (Mar 12, 2009)

Actually, most reef tanks today don't use trickle filters, because they're nitrate traps. For SW hobbyists now, most Biological filtration is accomplished by the use of Live Rock and Deep Sand Beds (DSBs), as well as by some of the fauna in the tank itself.

I've just converted my 125g from Salty to the Freshwater side (Medium-planted low-tech), and am using my sump with a DIY wet/dry trickle filter for additional filtration. In addition, I've used the refugium chamber as a plant refuge, for out-cuttings and nitrate loving plants. So far the tank's doing well. If you'd like a drawing of how mine is set up, let me know and I'll come up with one.


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

I've had a trickle filter set up on a planted tank for well over 10 years. Yes, you do need to seal it up to minimize CO2 loss. Yes, you can use the tower with bio-balls or whatever media you like because that is your biological filter. I must say they make AWESOME biological filters too. I've never had to clean that part of the filter. My filter has a weir in it which contains polyester floss which I replace periodically. I have a huge external DIY CO2 reactor run by a mag 3 (was run by a Quiet One 2200 previously). The overflow and the filter are covered. The tank has glass covers on top too. So yes, you have to take measures to minimize CO2 loss. Covering these items does not starve the bio filter or fish for O2 based on observing this set up for many years. I think there are many advantages to a wet/dry/sump filter:minimal items in tank such as heater, reactors, ect. If there is a power outage you can take water from your sump and put it back in the tank to keep your bio-filter alive-the bio filter media requires almost no maintenence (I have a filter pad in the overflow that I replace weekly with a clean one)-it's just a good set up IMO.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*Conversion*

Well no broken glass and no dead bodies. The box is cleared.






























Passages were narrow and angles just crowded the tank. The media discharge was small so it had to go.
























I decided to use an Olfo snap off waperpaper razor as the narrow blade is flexible to cut the sealant.
























No sweat yet but first blood on the project as my ugly finger was nicked picking debris outta the tank. Clean up wash and then on to deciding on panel divider heights and placement. Stage one was acquiring the stuff so I believe now that I'm actually touching it this begins stage 2. roud:


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## Trallen44 (Dec 10, 2008)

I told you I didn't know about these filters. LOL But I am interested to see this develop.


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

That is an odd looking trickle filter. Is it made of glass? It appears that you are gutting it. What do you have planned. Are you going to have a bio media chamber?


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Yes its glass and an odd size, not tank standard. 32L x 20H x 12W. I'm still reading what I can find which isn't much. If I reinstall the tower it will be to the end of the tank not the center wall that was a mess in my mind. but leaning towards chambers running end to end. Socks on the inlets followed by some media boxes and an open chamber before the return. At over 30" with the tower removed there's some good space to work with. So if that's done then back to sump w/o the trickle.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

I don't seem to find a written answer searching the web. I've decided to go sump not trickle filter using socks on the intake. How do you determine optimum divider height? Enough sump needs to be left empty to accommodate main tank draining with return pump failure or shut down I do understand that. How much fall between chambers is my question mark right now and does it really matter?


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*boxes and dividers*

Found some rubbermaid boxes that will make great media trays. 1 Tall stack or two shorter stacks that is now the question Shakespeare. Taller the stack created the longer fall for water and more splash going to the end of the sump. Level at the return end will be 1/3 tank height give or take.










boxes are 11x7x4 deep


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## sunfire99 (Apr 8, 2009)

What kinds of media you want to run in the baskets? If you have an old light you can put it over those baskets and use to to keep plants, moss, etc (watch out for algae though) on top of a bio ball type bacteria growing media in some baskets. I'd run shorter basket stacks and keep the splashing down. Do you have a general outline of compartments for the sump? Anything you can post on here? I'm amazed how clean the sump looks with all the carving you did. Must have scraped a good long while?


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

As far as posting a drawing or anything I'm still at the stare at it,,, move the baskets and scratch the head,,, stare at it again stage.
Media,
The theory here of you have it, use it. First basket even with the socks thinking coarse foam, second Eheim Ehfimech (cylinder type), third Eheim Ehfisubstrat Pro (ball type), forth would be fine floss or place the floss in the upper 1/2 of the third box leaving the forth free for whatever. OR going 6 baskets increase the mechanical to two each of the Eheim materials.
If going with two / three basket stacks at a lower overall level for the dividers the overflow would swamp back over the basket if the power failed and restored when we weren't home was a thought I had looking at.

My other tanks have Pro3e, and Pro II canisters on them so I have extra materials on hand.
Pumps I'm looking at are 950 to 1325 gph

and yeah, a lot of scraping, there was stuff glued all over that tank

Edited my last pic post after cutting my first piece of glass and setting between the basket stacks.


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

This is just my take on it based on running one for a long time on a FW planted tank:have a trickle section above the water line in the sump filled with a plastic media eg. bio balls ect. If you want to run it through a sock first that's great too or you can have debris filter in the over-flow section in the tank. Construct a weir or channel system that you can put polyester batting and bags filled with whatever floats your boat-purigen, carbon ect. The idea is that you have a nitrifying bacteria colony on the media that can, when parts of it dies,( as it surely will) it will slough off the media and be collected in the polyester batting/floss ect. You will NEVER have to clean this part of the filter. You can add fish and not worry about ammonia and nitrite spikes. You WILL have to make this set up somewhat air tight anyway if you are going to use CO2 so why not have the trickle section? IMO if you leave that out you will be foregoing one the best things about it. Now, I know that the reefers don't use trickle sections anymore because they are nitrate FACTORIES which is bad for reef tanks but not for FW planted tanks.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

After much head scratching (and not wanting to end up bald) I made a decision. Going forward the trickle is back in the filter and the socks are out. Although the tray is much smaller. 8" at the end of the tank. 
I have a finish blade on my table saw that does a decent job on plastic so I cut the drip plate.










Ordered glass today because none of what I removed is big enough to recut for the new panels. There will be three dividers counting the trickle filter chamber. The tape is the flooded area of the design up to the dam.










I fully expect the tank drainage to overflow this smaller drip tray. So to eliminate all the splash from that drop I'll increase the basket height of the first stack up the the drip tray and floss fill it if needed. The water will wick through the floss rather than drip.










Waiting on the glass all I can do now is put the tower part back in. This stuff comes apart easier than it goes in LOL. 










After researching a couple of days decided on a Little Giant 4-MDQ-SC it should deliver about 640gph at the end of the returns. Claims are the new pumps are real quiet. Like the fact there's no shaft seals on a mag drive.


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## sunfire99 (Apr 8, 2009)

Looking good!! I think this is going to work out really well for you. The Little Giant pumps are great. I used one on a reef tank to replace a Gen-X that sounded like a 4 cycle boat motor. The LG was much more quiet, but I think it was an MD, not MDQ model. Is the Q for "quiet"? I'd still suggest you find some way to soft mount that pump though to prevent your cabinet from humming. I was able to find some reinforced rubber soft mounts made for an RC airplane engine that helped reduce vibration noise significantly. Are you planning to use hard line plumbing to the main tank? Where is the overflow and return in the main tank?


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*current Q&A*

The tank is drilled in both rear corners behind the weirs. I was planning on using 'flexiPVC' spa piping to eliminate angle fittings but am now looking into SharkBite PEX tubing and barb fittings. This stuff looks to be the next 'best thing since sliced bread'. It is able to be broken down and refitted without cutting or glue, gas and liquid rated to 200psi. Comes in black, red, natural and textured colors up to 1" dia.! I may never want to close the cabinet doors!! Putting together a parts list now that I've settled on a pump for the most part. (haven't ordered one yet) Depends on what wholesale pricing is on the stuff. CASH ACME products. 

I have 1/8" - 1/4" rubber gasket material in sheets, very similar rubber to tire tubes so I can make dampers thanks for the tip. :thumbsup: Still have to decide on CO2 but I think I'll stay at 2wpg on the start up so I can skip it and dose excel for awhile. Gotta get another Aqua UV unit too. This used cheap tank is adding up.


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## sunfire99 (Apr 8, 2009)

PEX seems like good stuff. I bought a 100' roll of 1/2" today for another project. I opted for compression fittings rather than buy the crimper. I've gotten as far as hooking it up to a garden hose to check the compression fittings for leaks, and am pretty impressed:icon_cool. 



> This used cheap tank is adding up.


Ain't it the truth?


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

sunfire99 said:


> PEX seems like good stuff. I bought a 100' roll of 1/2" today for another project. I opted for compression fittings rather than buy the crimper. I've gotten as far as hooking it up to a garden hose to check the compression fittings for leaks, and am pretty impressed:icon_cool.
> 
> 
> 
> Ain't it the truth?


Great minds and all that.

Looked at a Youtube video of coupling disengagement, looks simple enough.
Almost like the fittings on my R O unit.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*Filter Final Design (rev 1)*

I was able to use one piece of original glass recut beyond the tower assembly.
Picked up my glass order yesterday and "_note to self, tanks are built by humans and are not square measure twice" ._ 1/32 to 1/16 glass removal using the Fred Flintstone method (wet stone) takes a lot of time. Only the large tower divider plate fit without sizing.
They also drilled the hole in the cover in the wrong place so picking up a new plate Monday. Covers are clear glass, dividers are gray tinted matching the tank.
Once again tape indicates flooded level and flow path. HOPE IT WORKS.


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## Trallen44 (Dec 10, 2008)

It is looking good!


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## sunfire99 (Apr 8, 2009)

Moving right along aren't you. Looking good!! Did you decide to keep the sump fully covered? Have you read that CO2 offgassing would be a problem on an open sump? I'm not too concerned as I plan to mist my display tank, and have very little surface agitation in the sump.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*sump pump sizing*

Help and opinions welcome. 
Trying to calculate pump size.









Based feet of head pressure on Reef site articles related to flow and plumbing.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*Sump setup*

Doors are off the cabinet. The sump has a 2 piece top made of 1/4" clear glass.
15" drilled for inlet bulkhead pipes, 16" plate for removable cover. Adding the small tower I've built CO2 loss back into the filter system. If it's too great the razor will remove a tower plate.

Shows dividers w/o media baskets


















only one inlet bulkhead in place


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## sunfire99 (Apr 8, 2009)

wkndracer said:


> Help and opinions welcome.
> Trying to calculate pump size.
> 
> 
> ...


I envy all the space you have in that stand. I've had pretty good luck using the head calculator at Reef Central. The UV and reactor cylinders should add no more head pressure than a union or ball valve, and since you are splitting the returns, I don't think the 1/2" bulkhead restrictions will hurt you. Using the Little Giant pump you mentioned, I think you'll be north of 600 gallons per hour with this setup. It looks like you've done your homework though. When in doubt I like to error on too much pump, you can always ball valve it down a bit. Did you give any thought to taking the UV out of the return line to slow down the flow, and allow more contact time or is it high enough watts to handle the flow rate?


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

How big is this tank? I don't think there's any need for a trickle filter on a fully planted tank, you should utilize it for some big honking fish instead! That looks like an awful lot of fun building time for it to be for nothing.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*Cabinet set up*

I think all that space is going to evaporate pretty quick with the pump, 10lb CO2 cylinder, UV unit and CO2 reactor in the cabinet. 
My thought on the plumbing was actually to split flow twice. Come off the pump into both the reactor and UV unit with the 15watt Aqua UV valved to force primary flow through the reactor. One thing the cabinet will have room for I haven't had before is a flow meter. Also I can put a wheeled gauge glass on the UV discharge.
Monday I'm back to work and will through this in front of one of the boiler engineers on site. With split inlet flow restricted on the UV unit side can I go back to common pipe on both discharges? If so then it splits again in common flow to the tank returns.

I'm a little bummed you came to the same answer I did on the pump actually because 600 is twice the needed flow. Unless I go to a HP pump I can't get the necessary head. I would have been happier if I could have found a pump in the 400 - 500gph range and valved back to 300 or 350gph.

No matter how I add things up it's got to be minimum rated at least 17' on discharge.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

jaidexl said:


> How big is this tank? I don't think there's any need for a trickle filter on a fully planted tank, you should utilize it for some big honking fish instead! That looks like an awful lot of fun building time for it to be for nothing.


The trickle tower is cut down to 8" at the end of the sump. Opinions vary on the need, about 60/40. CO2 loss versus nitrate production. The dry tower area is about 16 X 8" total. Display tank is 110g w/ approx. 15g wet in the sump tank.


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## sunfire99 (Apr 8, 2009)

wkndracer said:


> I think all that space is going to evaporate pretty quick with the pump, 10lb CO2 cylinder, UV unit and CO2 reactor in the cabinet.
> My thought on the plumbing was actually to split flow twice. Come off the pump into both the reactor and UV unit with the 15watt Aqua UV valved to force primary flow through the reactor. One thing the cabinet will have room for I haven't had before is a flow meter. Also I can put a wheeled gauge glass on the UV discharge.
> Monday I'm back to work and will through this in front of one of the boiler engineers on site. With split inlet flow restricted on the UV unit side can I go back to common pipe on both discharges? If so then it splits again in common flow to the tank returns.
> 
> ...


I know the space will get eaten up quickly. I wouldn't see a problem going back to common return after the UV/Reactor. I don't think it has a huge impact on head pressure, but I'm not 100% sure. You know on the pump, you could run a pair of Mag 7's or something in that range, and control them seperately if needed. I've had really good luck with the Danner Mag drives, especially for the price. They are a little hot, but I run most of them submerged as they aren't as reliable externally as other pumps I've used or read about. You could always use a submerged pump with the setup you have. The other big advantage I found with running any pump submerged is noise suppression. 



> How big is this tank? I don't think there's any need for a trickle filter on a fully planted tank, you should utilize it for some big honking fish instead! That looks like an awful lot of fun building time for it to be for nothing.


There are definitely 2 schools of thought on wet/dry filters, but I believe there are potential advantages. Can you explain why you think it is for nothing? Barring major problems with outgassing, there is certainly no harm, and the added nitrate production capacity might come in useful.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*Pondering the pump*

Yeah, I looked at all the different options for pumps. Quiet was on the list.
#1 Concern here for me in the summer which is 10 1/2 months a year. 
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: Florida may be flat but but we have one hellva riding season :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: Is heat transfer. Just the lights on the 75g tanks with the glass covers and it easily climbs to 82F even with the A/C. Those heaters only kick on at water changes and New Years. External pumps won't transfer as bad.

As far as the reactor / UV unit tie in my concern is all things being equal water is funny about flow path. Longer pipe run and slightly restricted the sterilizer path will be subject to stall. Having a wheel window I can monitor it.

Here I sit with my little fish tank, looking at with the sump in the stand right under it. Total head is amazing to me on this project. 19.5' in 4.5' actual. My work is on nothing but flow systems nearly everyday. 1000F and 2350 - 2500psi is main steam off the boiler. Every pump in the plant is either based on it or fighting against it. But what I do is repair or replace a small piece here or there somebody else figured it all out. Small is a relative comment by the way each roll wheel grinding element in our coal pulverizers (got 6 to a unit) weighs 11 tons.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

wkndracer said:


> Opinions vary on the need, about 60/40. CO2 loss versus nitrate production.


But I don't understand why there's a concern for nitrate reduction in a planted tank, it's redundant. You're going to be adding KNO3, no?


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

jaidexl said:


> But I don't understand why there's a concern for nitrate *reduction *in a planted tank, it's redundant. You're going to be adding KNO3, no?


tower bacteria *produces* nitrates


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Ok, I guess I was stuck in a reefing mindset there. Yes, I understand that nitrobacter produce nitrates, but they can only produce as much as the ammonia offered to them amounts to. This is why I asked if you were planning on any huge fish, because any normal stocking, especially in a 100+gl tank will be covered by bacteria present in normal filtration, plants and substrate. Unless there's some new science in the hobby where trickle filters actually produce nitrate out of nothing then I am completely lost.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Don't canister filters have bacteria growing in them ("*normal filtration*")? Replacing canister filtration with the sump. Why spend $400.00 on another (or multiple) Eheims for this tank? Sumps are serviceable in place and options are unlimited on what can be stuffed in it (as long as it fits) Modified what I bought = glass $58.00, baskets 22.00, pump will be around 150.00 with HUGE flow over a canister's capacity. Everything stay's out of the tank. Can you grow / store plants in a canister? I can in a sump. Cheaper than a Hydor ETH heater will be in my sump too.



jaidexl said:


> Ok Unless there's some new science in the hobby where trickle filters actually produce nitrate out of nothing then I am completely lost.


 That comment just smacked of sarcasm and was wrong. Where exactly was this suppose to help or exchange information (other than your attitude and lack of knowledge on the subject)? 

Trickle and sump filtration have been around nearly forever. George Booth is very good at keeping water weeds and documents data in case study format. There is a link in this thread to his website. Read it if your so sure this is such a waste. 
This is my first system using this filtration method but I'm not the first to do it. Whether the tower remains active or as stated earlier is removed, is only a razor blade away. PITA to add it later but no more than a minute to remove it and I have yet another flooded filter chamber and next to no CO2 loss.


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## gtriever (Mar 12, 2009)

That's looking really good, kudos on your construction! Gotta admit, I'm a big fan of sumps too, for the reasons you specified. Yes, there are tradeoffs (CO2 levels), but I sure do like keeping the display tank free of equipment, the extra water volume (bigger tank = more stability, right?), and the ease of maintenance.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Ok, first it was not suppose to be a smack of sarcasm, you're reading me wrong here. I'm just trying to understand your reasoning, not harass you. I have always seen trickles as reef equipment, father in law also owns an Oceanic Trickle 50, so I'm not oblivious to their function. I suppose I see it like putting a protein skimmer on planted tank, plants do the job that so much hobby equipment is meant for and then some. But, you make a good point about money, I chose the used rout for my 110, bought Tom's old OC325 for $65, tried to find a used pump but ended up spending $150 on a new blueline, plus the cost of plumbing that most folks are forced to spend no matter how they filter the tank. I guess anything is doable and everyone has their own preferences, like $300 canisters on nano tanks that really don't need anymore than a circulation pump. :confused1: Yes, I'm cheap, so I understand that reasoning very well. But my main point, if I had that kind of technology under the tank, I would put some major stocking in it, but the problem I find with my 110X is even though it sounds large, it really isn't an appropriate tank for any oversized livestock that likes to move or gets close to a foot long or more, maybe best for hovering types like discuss or angelfish. Anyway, best of luck, I'll stop harassing you now. :redface:


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*jaidexl reply*

Apology offered for misreading your intent. First removing nitrate and waste of effort comments on the project set a wrong tone with me.
Did what research I could on fresh water applications. Took digging on the internet as this isn't on the top ten hit parade. After reading Tom Booth's articles and exchanging a couple emails I was set to leave the tower out. Posters here had comments of praise for them so I reconsidered. (easy enough to remove) Plants are a huge boost to the biological filtration no denying that. The need for mechanical filtration remains in a planted tank though and that's what I trying to set up. 
Your assessment of the 110g was exactly my reason for selection. Angel fish in a planted tank is what it's going to be and hover is just what they do. We looked at this one, a 125g (4') and a 185g (6'). This one fits the location the best and at 5' long with 18" of width its well workable. It happened to come with the sump containing the huge trickle assembly so I researched what to do with it. I think it will be a viable filter option and if I can set the returns as I hope the flow will eliminate the need for power heads that I've had to add on all my other planted tanks to get rid of dead spots.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Hey, accepted, I probably deserved it anyway  My wording was a little punchy, I'm probably doing the opposite of you on a similar project, so maybe poking at the opposition alittle. Sorry about that.

What kind of angels are you looking at? I think I'm going with some cheap striped veils from a breeder in state that mixes with Peruvian wilds, pretty natural look with extra long lines to compliment a high tank, minus the huge cost.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*Angels*

My stock is already here. Filled in my tank profiles and added the third in my profile albums. Super Veil is my structural choice in the fish. Golds, marbles, leopard, smoky and DD blacks are my chosen at the moment with DD blacks being my favorite. That is except when trying to take pictures of them. Blacks just cannot be captured with a digital camera. Either nothing but a red eyed black spot or color washed by the flash. Once the current projects are complete we'll have 2 x 75g, 2 x 55g, 1 x 110g all angel tanks.

Just like I weekend race my bikes and boats I'll be hobby breeding angels.


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

Ok, just my 2 cents. You are going to have to cover this sump very tightly whether there is a wet/dry section in it or not or you will lose a lot of CO2-heck you'll lose a substantial amount just from the overflow is you don't seal it up somehow. A trickle filter is a very efficient filter in that it can grow bacteria very well/quickly but it doesn't produce any more nitrate than a canister filter.What IS different IMO is that when set up right the bio section of the filter does not EVER need maintenance. I'm defining "EVER" as 10 years or longer because that is how long my trickle filter has been running. What happens when you don't take a canister filter apart and clean it? What happens to the bacteria colony when that is done? I rest my case.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Hey Mark,
It was your earlier posts that helped prompt me to put the tower back in at the end of the sump. I'm sure one way or another this is going to work and I'll like using it. Canister maintenance is something I don't enjoy doing,,, who does.


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## Trallen44 (Dec 10, 2008)

wkndracer said:


> Hey Mark,
> It was your earlier posts that helped prompt me to put the tower back in at the end of the sump. I'm sure one way or another this is going to work and I'll like using it. Canister maintenance is something I don't enjoy doing,,, who does.


I don't run canisters mainly for that reason. I know a lot of people don't like UGF in planted tanks, but so far with my experience, between those and a HOB filter I don't have any problems at all. I have heard good things about the sumps. I just don't have a big enough tank to try one yet. Can't wait to see this thing up and running and full of angels.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

I don't see any pictures of the finished tank. Did I miss them?


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Hilde said:


> I don't see any pictures of the finished tank. Did I miss them?


Still building and buying. Only one tank put together so far.


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## Trallen44 (Dec 10, 2008)

How are things coming along with your new tanks?


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*picking back up on the project*

This back burner project is once again moving forward. The Walstad style soil sub tank is settling in somewhat and the other three tanks are at least stable. Work is well,,, work and it just gets in the way other than providing funds. 
The trickle tower left again when it came time to pipe everything. With the sump parked in the cabinet corner there was no way short of elbows and one fitting after another to plumb it in. PITA X3 it’s gone for good. I had ¼” clear glass plate cut for tops. One piece is drilled for the drain bulkheads and a semi permanent mount. The second completely covers the sump butting flush against the first one. Decided to go with a Little Giant 3 MDQX SC and what a horse of a pump! Flow will not be an issue. 
Plumbing is something I just love,, almost as much as rewiring a dashboard.
Aqua UV classic with wiper is just too good a product not to have another one. 15w and ordered it with the 2” couplings. The inlet side incorporates a Rex style down flow reactor. 
Sump, double union ball valve, pump, double union ball valve, check valve (don’t think it was needed), CO2 reactor/sterilizer, tee fitting, all 1” diameter minimum. Reduced from the tee to 3/4“ with two brass/stainless ball valves for flow reduction/pump throttling dumping to four returns, two high, two low. 

PLUMBING DONE! 

The cabinet doors are were removed to refinish everything and left off until installation is completed.










Rex style reactor. I added a barb for injection rather than drilling the pipe. Also the unit is sitting crooked because the saddle it will sit in is not completed yet. The unit will swivel forward to allow the wiper rod to clear the sump.











Back side shot of the plumbing. The pump and double union inlet ball valve are mounted on 1/2" PVC board and rubber mounted as well. For the right side drain line I installed 1" PVC hard pipe to eliminate hose sag with just enough hose to make radius sweeps between the connections .










Front view showing right side connections


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*Tweeking and tuning / making media baskets*

I think flow and design is what I want it to be starting out. The baskets I purchased at Lowes have all been modified. Many, many 1/4" holes have been drilled. To further tighten the seal / fit foam has been glued to several baskets.









The first section of the sump after the inlet panel has a short divider that splits the first basket. This one is filled with bio balls and I don't plan on it being removed after start up.









The egg crate material was cut with long and short tabs so it would lock in as the flow path is up from the bottom on the basket. 




































Following is another divided basket using Plexiglas for the divider and more foam seals attached with silicone. This basket also has 1/4" nylon "gutter guard" mesh tie wrapped in place to hold smaller material. Lowes sells this for about $4.00 on a twenty foot roll. (Handy stuff :thumbsup: )


















The next chamber is a full basket area and I used a screened basket for more mechanical filtration. Eheim Ehfimech ceramic over coarse filter material. Again using the fine mesh ($4.00) and locking tab egg crate.













































With the baskets having a lip on the bottom for stacking purposes that would block water flow egg crate strips were placed between the first basket and the sump bottom.



























The return section holds the last basket that contains the fine floss.
My hope is to catch the first layer before debris transfers to the remaining three. Using egg crate cut with locking tabs I made two panels. The first over three layers of floss and the second locking in the top piece. Four baskets and plenty of flooded area left in the sump.









The sump lid sealing the whole arrangement. 


















On a final add for this post I used the "gutter guard" mesh to make weir protectors. I may not keep all the tank critters out of the sump but an effort has been made.


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## Trallen44 (Dec 10, 2008)

Looks great! Can't wait to see it up and running.


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## sunfire99 (Apr 8, 2009)

Wow!! Looks like a lot of effort has gone into this project. Note to self....."Stop looking on Craig's List to pick up another 'cheap' tank". 

Looks good Mike. What are the plans for this one? Maybe a dozen Angels?


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

LMAO! note to self ,,, don't tell Steve you spent your hobby time for almost two years building only _'one'_ 100+mph 18' boat. :confused1: opps guess I just did. 
But seriously other than drilling all the holes in the baskets (which my 10 yr old son helped with) there's less money in plumbing than another Eheim Pro 3e would have cost. (including the little giant pump) Refinishing the stand took less time and *WAY* less funds then the building of the oak 75g stands did. The only regret I'll have on this 'new to me' tank are the scratches in the glass I can't fix. Time and muscle is all that’s required now to move it in and link this thread to another tank journal.
Stocking preferences in my home won’t change anytime soon so yes 10 – 12 double dark super veil angels will call this tank home.


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## Trallen44 (Dec 10, 2008)

:drool: It is cool that you and your son worked on this project together. Can't wait to see it set up with all the angels in it!


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*Tank Journal once flooded SOON*

Well enough stuff has gotten in the way (again) and stalled this project. Back to it now that vacations and class reunions yada yada are out of the way. Moved the tank and stand inside plumbed everything back up and here we go.

I had this post ready last weekend but the site swapped and I couldn't get it in.
Now all I have to do is figure out why my photos won't upload


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I don't keep any SW tanks so someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought one of the big reasons that trickle filters were used was to eliminate nitrates? Just now skimmers are generally used instead b/c they're more efficient?


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## ZID ZULANDER (Apr 15, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> I don't keep any SW tanks so someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought one of the big reasons that trickle filters were used was to eliminate nitrates? Just now skimmers are generally used instead b/c they're more efficient?


Not so. It was the gas exchange Co2 out and O2 back in the water of why they were used. The wet / dry filters use the trickle filter method. Some peopel with large fish tanks use these to house their good bacteria. Sump filters also allow easy addition of other filtration equipment to be added later. You do have the lower tank under your main tank and you will lose some CO2 in the process of the water getting back to the main tank.

The only way to eliminate nitrates in a closed system is to create an anaerobic enviornment. ( Lack of Oxygen ) The other way is to have plants or other organic creatures that use the nitrates in the process of making their food.

Skimmers remove complex organic substances before they are transformed by the processes of biological filtration. Biological filtration would end up producing nitrates of these complex organic substances if the skimmer didnt pull them out.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Hello lauraleellbp, What him said LOL (ZID ZULANDER) 
My understanding at the beginning of this project in simple terms was that the bio ball material in the trickle tower area was similar to Bio Wheels on the newer HOB's in that it created a huge area for nitrate producing bacteria. In the final fit of the sump under the tank I ended up losing the tower anyway due to the plumbing configuration of the drains. What I have now is a sealed sump when both glass top plates are in place. 

Zid, I've eliminated most of the bubbling in the drain chamber and all splash in the sump so with the tops CO2 loss should be at a minimum.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Got the journal string started :hihi:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/tank-journals-photo-album/90878-110g-w-30g-sump-56k-warning.html

If I count the sump I now have 7 tanks wet in the house :icon_roll


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Lot of work.

Sumps are good, nice etc, but relative to a canister filter, I have to wonder.
I'm talking about ease for average aquarist.

DIY projects like this are awesome, you learn a lot etc, but many will just not do all this. It is complex.

However, taking what you learn from all that, distilling down the main factors, then redesigning the system for simplicity, now you have something good.

I use a pre made sump wet/dry, duct tape the edges on the tower.
I use large foam 30-20 pore per inch blocks, and clean these weekly(these are my mechanical filtration). I use a foam block(about 20-15 pores pre inch and needle point screen to catch large stuff.

I also adjust the flow rate to reduce noise, I have a powerhead in the tank, so the flow rate from the filter is not critical to circulation.

Regards,
Tom Barr


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

On a large system, using a sump is much more effective and cheaper than designing a complex closed-loop (ie. scolley's aquarium). The sump serves as a central unit with all the filters, heaters, probes, water changer sensors and whatever else you can think of in one easy to reach location. It also has other benefits like keeping a consistent water line in the main aquarium and removal of surface scum; just to name a few.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Raul-7 said:


> On a large system, using a sump is much more effective and cheaper than designing a complex closed-loop (ie. scolley's aquarium). The sump serves as a central unit with all the filters, heaters, probes, water changer sensors and whatever else you can think of in one easy to reach location. It also has other benefits like keeping a consistent water line in the main aquarium and removal of surface scum; just to name a few.


On a large tank, the evaporation issue is rather large(my 180 Gal loses about 1-2 liters per day). Automated water changes and auto fill with a flat is much easier to add and keep all that stuff out of the main tank.

Internal pumps might add more heat to the water, but they operate at lower pressure and use less electricity, about the same as canister filters.
You can also add a cooling flan in the sump as well to cool the water.

I sold my in line OC filters and iwaki pump and use a pair of canisters and needle wheel now on my 180, the 60 and the 120 use sumps. I suppose I could convert the 180, but the look of the bottom plumbing is still too good to justify.

Still, a correctly set up sump and overflow should be pretty good as far as CO2 loss, with a few simple modifications to commercial Wet/drys.

The Lifeguard pumps are good also, and can be run externally as well on the sumps, and they are lot more quiet than the other brands, like Iwaki and higher pressure return pumps.

For what we require, that is a waste of energy and adds more noise.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Mike, 

Can you give me an update on this? I know it's in your tank, but did you make any modifications since putting it in place? I am just about a hair from setting up one myself, but your thread and the link you provided is about all I am finding on the planted tank side. Anything you would have done differently?


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## BoxxerBoyDrew (Oct 16, 2005)

Wkndracer,

Great job on the Sump!!! I have used wet/drys for 20+ years on most of my tanks except for my planted tanks, as they have been small enough to run with canisters. 

Quick question about Your return lines. Do you have a hole drilled in the deep return outlets to stop the drain of water for when you power down the system? I see Ya put a check valve inline, but just wondering!

Thanks Bud,
Drew


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

sewingalot said:


> Mike,
> 
> Can you give me an update on this? I know it's in your tank, but did you make any modifications since putting it in place? I am just about a hair from setting up one myself, but your thread and the link you provided is about all I am finding on the planted tank side. Anything you would have done differently?


UGH!!! replied to this and lost it to power failure twice already! 
Shorter version now LOL. The only mods since setup have been in the baskets. Three hold bio media and the forth only holds the floss in place.

Doing it again,,, I would have added a third safety drain that's dry unless a problem occurs with flow through the mains. That said plumbing as is has never caused a drop of water in the wrong place. Also I think doing another sump (which I am soon enough) I'll be using foam dividers rather than so much glass :icon_roll Geez I wonder where I'd get that idea??? coming soon :smile:



BoxxerBoyDrew said:


> Wkndracer,
> 
> Great job on the Sump!!! I have used wet/drys for 20+ years on most of my tanks except for my planted tanks, as they have been small enough to run with canisters.
> 
> ...


The Tee splitting the upper and lower returns has a vent hole drilled in it and the check valve so covered myself both ways setting it up. Tuning to force water out the longer pipe run to the lower nozzles I placed trimmed down plastic bio balls in the upper pipes to restrict flow, worked out good dividing pressure to the returns.

Sumps are easier (and cheaper) than canisters to clean LOL


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Going to make it so the foam is removable for cleaning?

Have you considered using Matala mats instead of foam? (easier cleaning)


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Used the coarse Matala like material in the first basket of the existing sump.
Was actually thinking about the foam Steve sells and checking on flow characteristics based on core size. Considering the use of two panels so I can 'fuge the center.


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## Treekiller (Aug 30, 2011)

I just wanted to say THANK YOU!

After hours of searching the internet looking for freshwater planted aquarium sumps, I stumbled upon this post. I signed up to thank you for sharing this.
This is ONE of very few freshwater sump designs I have been able to find with plant life taken into consideration. 

Outstanding job, neat, organized, easy to maintain and covered to limit CO2 loss.

Only thing left to say...I most likely am going to steal this idea!:hihi:
Thanks again


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