# Humbly Seeking Advice: 20g (long) tank reset



## pantherspawn (Dec 21, 2011)

What type of ferts are you using if any? And to my knowledge baby tears are a high output lighting plant only. I've always had a hard time with vals myself. Running low and high output lighting. 

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## cmichaelcooper (Jul 11, 2013)

pantherspawn said:


> What type of ferts are you using if any?


I was not using any ferts with the Eco-complete because I thought it was supposed to provide nutrition. Previous to the EC, I was using pool filter sand with Seachem tabs.


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## pantherspawn (Dec 21, 2011)

K With my experience, you should still use root tabs every few months. Also, a 14 watt bulb isn't going to be sufficient enough lighting to grow much else besides low lighting plants such as anubis, crypts, java fern and maybe some amazon swords etc. Not to say that others won't survive for awhile, but the growth will be severely limited. One of the other steps you could take to control algae growth, would be to add Amano shrimp, snails or even some stem plants like anachoris or moneywart etc. Stem plants will take up nutrients in the water that algae use to grow. But again, those depend on your stock of fish and what you plan on keeping. Also, the color max bulb is great for adding reds to the fish and making them more vibrant looking, but does nothing for plant growth. So even though you changed your fixture, you're still only getting the 14 watts on a 20 gallon tank. Not much will grow in that. It would keep a variety of plants alive if transplanted.. But you won't get a whole lot of new growth. I would suggest for plants, at least 40 watts total. But that's my personal opinion, others may differ. 

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## cmichaelcooper (Jul 11, 2013)

pantherspawn said:


> Also, a 14 watt bulb isn't going to be sufficient enough lighting...


There are two 14 watt bulbs in the lamp, so 28w total, which puts me at only 1.4 wpg.



> Stem plants will take up nutrients in the water that algae use to grow. But again, those depend on your stock of fish and what you plan on keeping.


There were guppies in this tank, but I'm thinking of switching to small shoaling fish and inverts.

Reading more in the low-tech forum, I am interested in the idea of using a potting soil, and then capping with the Eco-complete. Does this sound like a good idea?


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## pantherspawn (Dec 21, 2011)

cmichaelcooper said:


> There are two 14 watt bulbs in the lamp, so 28w total, which puts me at only 1.4 wpg.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The color max bulb Imo is pointless for plants. So even though it's two 14 watt bulbs, only one bulb is beneficial for the plants. 

I have heard lots of people using potting soil, heard it's got many benefits, though I've never used it personally, I use a combination of substrates in all of my tanks, some fine sand, some pea gravel and some eco complete and fine gravel. In my 55 planted I use a combo of fluorite, EC and fine gravel. I never vacuum the substrate when I clean the tanks except occasionally right under the filter inlets. I use two filters, a canister with directional outlet and a hob. I use fert tabs every three to four months and grow a variety of plants. I have two 65 watt bulbs over mine for seven hours per day. I get occasional hair algae and bba outbreaks but a combo of nerite snails and Amano shrimp handle it immediately. Just to give an idea of what I run and have had success with. 

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## cmichaelcooper (Jul 11, 2013)

pantherspawn said:


> The color max bulb Imo is pointless for plants. So even though it's two 14 watt bulbs, only one bulb is beneficial for the plants.


Thanks for that input. I will look at replacing the Colormax bulb with a 6500K bulb.

So far my best planted tank has been a 55 gallon with only two large sponge filters for filtration and EC with a T5HO lamp worth 108 watts. I was growing jungle vals, a ruby red sword, anacharis and crypts. I had two 55 gals with the same substrate and lighting. I wanted an upgrade, so I bought a 75 gallon drilled talk, and put the substrate from both 55s in it, and put both T5HO lights on it. I haven't had good luck with that tank at all. A major BBA outbreak has resulted in almost all of the vals and anacharis dead, although the crypts and ruby red are okay. But the tank is just covered in algae.

I really want to focus on the smaller tank before I try to figure out the large tank. Where do you get your Amano shrimp?


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## pantherspawn (Dec 21, 2011)

I actually get them from petco out here. We have a great lfs in one location. It's the only big chain store I'll buy from. But they call them Japanese cleaner shrimp. It's the same thing as an Amano, which is named so after the individual who made them popular. They run between 1-2 dollar a piece. Three of them will clean an entire tank covered in hair algae in a matter of a day or so. They will also eat bba if there is no other algae or food source available. 

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## pantherspawn (Dec 21, 2011)

If you're looking for an awesome plant that will fill out your tank, I would look into a red/green tiger lotus. They are heavy root feeders and grow super fast. They reproduce by splitting new bulbs and need trimmed often. But would be a good addition to your larger tank. It's by far my favorite aquatic plant. 

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## cmichaelcooper (Jul 11, 2013)

pantherspawn said:


> I actually get them from petco out here. We have a great lfs in one location. It's the only big chain store I'll buy from. But they call them Japanese cleaner shrimp. It's the same thing as an Amano, which is named so after the individual who made them popular. They run between 1-2 dollar a piece. Three of them will clean an entire tank covered in hair algae in a matter of a day or so. They will also eat bba if there is no other algae or food source available.


I will see if I can source them out here. Our livestock choices are pretty limited in this area, unfortunately, but I really love shrimp.

So, if I use a soil or a fine sand, how densely should I plan on placing root tabs?


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## pantherspawn (Dec 21, 2011)

cmichaelcooper said:


> So, if I use a soil or a fine sand, how densely should I plan on placing root tabs?


One root tab for every five inches in radius. And they should only need new ones put in every four months or so. 

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## cmichaelcooper (Jul 11, 2013)

pantherspawn said:


> One root tab for every five inches in radius. And they should only need new ones put in every four months or so.


Awesome. Thank you for your input. I appreciate it! That tiger lotus looks beautiful. I might need to track some of it down.


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## pantherspawn (Dec 21, 2011)

Sure thing. Just as a reminder I am in no way an expert.. Haha I started from scratch with zero knowledge a few years ago of fish or plants. I now have ten tanks up and running, most of which I have live plants in and a variety of fish. Just remember not to give up, learn from experience and mistakes like we all have and continue to push forward and not get discouraged. Trial and error is the key to knowledge. And best of luck. Hope to see some updates soon with your progress. 

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## wrm130 (Jan 16, 2013)

Save your money and frustration.

Get yourself some miracle grow organic potting mix, cap it with pool filter gravel and plant plant plant. The soil will provide everything the plants need to grow as well as a huge bacteria breeding ground. Your tank will cycle itself as well

You may want to upgrade your lighting as well. A hydroponics store in my area carries 'sunblaster' T5H0 units with bulbs included for 30$. You may be able to find something like this.

I'm not bragging, but with this setup you can pretty much grow any plant you want with no ferts and very little effort.

*Thats not to say root tabs don't work! I've never tried them.


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## cmichaelcooper (Jul 11, 2013)

wrm130 said:


> A hydroponics store in my area carries 'sunblaster' T5H0 units with bulbs included for 30$. You may be able to find something like this.


Thanks for that. I will see if I can find them locally. That would be a great price for high output bulbs.

My tanks keep getting destroyed by algae, like nasty hair and beard algae, even though I do frequent water changes and clean my sponges to keep nitrates in check. My nitrates are rarely ever above 10ppm. The thing that finally let me to break down the 20 was that I came back from a week vacation to find hair algae that had grown over six inches long. The tank receives very little, if any, direct sunlight. Any ideas as to why I have such algae problems?

Thanks!


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## hambone870 (Feb 13, 2013)

cmichaelcooper said:


> I was not using any ferts with the Eco-complete because I thought it was supposed to provide nutrition. Previous to the EC, I was using pool filter sand with Seachem tabs.


keep in mind that eco complete doesn't provide nutrients to your plants, it just has the capabilities to retain the nutrients better that it takes from the water column. 

eco makes a good cap for MGOCPM and have had some success in using the two together


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## wrm130 (Jan 16, 2013)

How close are your lights to the tank? How long are they on? How much do you feed?

As mentioned previously you could try getting a bunch more stem plants or floaters in there to suck up excess nutrient. Hygro species are fast growing...

Personally I like 6700k and 10 000k combo's for lighting.

And amano shrimp, as suggested, are a great idea!!! 2-3 should do you good.


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## cmichaelcooper (Jul 11, 2013)

I was very disappointed to find out that EC doesn't provide nutrients. I am excited about trying the Miracle Gro soil. I have been avoiding soil substrates for the last year because I have been afraid of turning my water column into mud, but I think I can handle it now.


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## cmichaelcooper (Jul 11, 2013)

wrm130 said:


> How close are your lights to the tank? How long are they on? How much do you feed?


My lights are sitting directly on top of the glass hood. I have them on a timer set for 10 hours a day, 10am-8pm. I feed very little. There were guppies in the tank, and I was feeding a mixture of crushed flake food, freezedried bloodworms, and guppy fry food every other day; just enough that it took about 45 seconds for all the visible food to be gone.


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## wrm130 (Jan 16, 2013)

You'll love it, I guarantee!!! Good luck!

Here's a quick vid I made on how I set mine up!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uphI16AP7s

Lol the front pane exploded overnight after I set it up...


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## cmichaelcooper (Jul 11, 2013)

wrm130 said:


> Here's a quick vid I made on how I set mine up!


Thanks for the video link. I think I'm going to get my substrate in place soon. I'm a little concerned about filtration still, since all I've been using is a sponge filter. I'm not crazy about HOB filters, but do you think that is the way to go, or should I look at a small external?

I watched a few of your other videos. You have some really nice tanks going. How are you liking the 30gL? Ever since I first saw one at the LFS I've loved the long low layout.


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## wrm130 (Jan 16, 2013)

It was actually all I had at the time. I have Eheim's on almost all my tanks now. The 2211 is perfect for the 20Long.

Thanks for the compliment. I loved the 30g but actually sold it and replaced it with a 40long to get a bit more height. Running 216w T5H0.


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## cmichaelcooper (Jul 11, 2013)

wrm130 said:


> I have Eheim's on almost all my tanks now. The 2211 is perfect for the 20Long.


What filter media would you recommend using in that filter?


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## wrm130 (Jan 16, 2013)

I'm using bio pellets and a bunch of blue sponges stacked. In newer dirted tanks I add a layer of floss to catch smaller stuff.


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## cmichaelcooper (Jul 11, 2013)

Right on. Do you use HOB filters for carbon, then?


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

cmichaelcooper said:


> I was very disappointed to find out that EC doesn't provide nutrients. I am excited about trying the Miracle Gro soil. I have been avoiding soil substrates for the last year because I have been afraid of turning my water column into mud, but I think I can handle it now.



You should do a search on "dirt tank" before you are committing to using dirt. The process is a bit slower than using aquarium safe substrates. For one thing, you have to wait at least 3 weeks or maybe more before you can even add fish if using dirt as your substrate. Dirt contains a lot of organic contents and they make the water column unstable at first. Second, frequent rescape isn't recommended with a dirt tank. The dirt will flow up to the water column and you would get black water. So, you have to plant everything right at the start. You need to determine what light intensity you are striving for here. Low light tank would not require the use of CO2. Medium light intensity, you need some sorts of CO2 (pressurized CO2 or dosing excel). Don't got a get high output light and not planning to use CO2 and expecting to have no algae issue. It isn't going to happen. 

Mos likely you need to dose the water column because not all of your plants are root feeders. In this case, you should get some dry fert and to mix them yourself.


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## PeterN1986 (Jun 15, 2011)

Take a look at my Mini-M journal. I used MGOPS (I didn't even mineralize it, I just sifted out all the twigs and rocks and stuff and was left with fine, soft dirt) and capped with leftover eco complete. I dry started for ~8 weeks (which mineralized the soil probably), then flooded in March, and saw no problems.

I'm using an AC20, that started out with carbon and purigen to get rid of the tannins. I have left the carbon in there from the beginning (even though its capacity is exhausted and it probably leeched stuff back into the tank) because once it is exhausted, its tremendous surface area will house the beneficial bacteria. 

And check out this huge thread:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=168992


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## cmichaelcooper (Jul 11, 2013)

tetra73 said:


> You should do a search on "dirt tank" before you are committing to using dirt. The process is a bit slower than using aquarium safe substrates. For one thing, you have to wait at least 3 weeks or maybe more before you can even add fish if using dirt as your substrate. Dirt contains a lot of organic contents and they make the water column unstable at first. Second, frequent rescape isn't recommended with a dirt tank. The dirt will flow up to the water column and you would get black water. So, you have to plant everything right at the start. You need to determine what light intensity you are striving for here. Low light tank would not require the use of CO2. Medium light intensity, you need some sorts of CO2 (pressurized CO2 or dosing excel). Don't got a get high output light and not planning to use CO2 and expecting to have no algae issue. It isn't going to happen.
> 
> Mos likely you need to dose the water column because not all of your plants are root feeders. In this case, you should get some dry fert and to mix them yourself.


Thank you for that advice. I was unaware that waiting a few weeks would be necessary, but that is okay as I am definitely not in a rush to get fish back in the tank, as I will be purchasing new stock for it, and I probably still have some hardware cost to cover anyway. I have purchased a bag of the MGOCPM and intend to give it a shot.

The thing I am afraid of is that plants are not easy to source locally. There is only one LFS, the rest are chains, and none carry a very good selection. I'm thinking of ordering my selection online once I determine the plants I would like.

Speaking of which, I'm thinking of sticking with low light. Currently, I only have 28 watts of lighting power on the tank. Doing some research, I saw that CFL bulbs are pretty popular, but the very low wattage of those bulbs is a little bit confusing when considering the general wpm guidelines. Any thoughts on that? Do I need to work out some more light, or can I work with what I have?


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## wrm130 (Jan 16, 2013)

tetra73 said:


> You should do a search on "dirt tank" before you are committing to using dirt. The process is a bit slower than using aquarium safe substrates. For one thing, you have to wait at least 3 weeks or maybe more before you can even add fish if using dirt as your substrate. Dirt contains a lot of organic contents and they make the water column unstable at first. Second, frequent rescape isn't recommended with a dirt tank. The dirt will flow up to the water column and you would get black water. So, you have to plant everything right at the start. You need to determine what light intensity you are striving for here. Low light tank would not require the use of CO2. Medium light intensity, you need some sorts of CO2 (pressurized CO2 or dosing excel). Don't got a get high output light and not planning to use CO2 and expecting to have no algae issue. It isn't going to happen.
> 
> Mos likely you need to dose the water column because not all of your plants are root feeders. In this case, you should get some dry fert and to mix them yourself.


-I do not wait 3 weeks to introduce fish, though I do introduce hardier fish first. My dirt tanks cycle in about a week without any additives, which is quicker than any aquarium substrates I've tried.
-The organic content of the dirt helps to cycle the tank as well as supports a huge bacterial colony.
-Physical re-scaping is an impossible nightmare but moving plants can easily be done with patience, care and forethought(cut the huge roots!)
-C02 is NOT needed in a dirted tank. The decomposition of the organic material provides sufficient c02 for healthy plant growth
-nutrients will leach into the water column feeding ALL types of plants
-dosing and gravel vacs are NOT required
-If you plant the tank heavily right from the get-go with a mix of rooting and stem plants you, don't go crazy with lighting 7-9hrs you should NOT have an algae issue.

Enjoy


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## wrm130 (Jan 16, 2013)

if you really want to cheap out on lighting, get some clamp on shop lights....the silver bowl type clamp on ones. Then go to walmart and get some 6700k daylight spiral bulbs. Good to go You could use 2 or 3 over your tank. Cheap cheap


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

cmichaelcooper said:


> Thank you for that advice. I was unaware that waiting a few weeks would be necessary, but that is okay as I am definitely not in a rush to get fish back in the tank, as I will be purchasing new stock for it, and I probably still have some hardware cost to cover anyway. I have purchased a bag of the MGOCPM and intend to give it a shot.
> 
> The thing I am afraid of is that plants are not easy to source locally. There is only one LFS, the rest are chains, and none carry a very good selection. I'm thinking of ordering my selection online once I determine the plants I would like.
> 
> Speaking of which, I'm thinking of sticking with low light. Currently, I only have 28 watts of lighting power on the tank. Doing some research, I saw that CFL bulbs are pretty popular, but the very low wattage of those bulbs is a little bit confusing when considering the general wpm guidelines. Any thoughts on that? Do I need to work out some more light, or can I work with what I have?


For plants, try the message board here. Always check your local weather before you order. You don't your plants to arrive under 100f degree heat. Most likely, your plants won't make it stuff inside a box for more than 2 days in high heat. I ordered plants from this place a lot:
www.aquariumplants.com BTW, they only ship once a week and is on Wednesday and arriving on Friday. You must order by Sunday before your order gets shipped out on the following Wed. Is a nice vendor. They have most plants you need. They don't sell any plants that they don't have them in stock. 

28 watts with your t8 light without a reflector is really too low. 

For the light, you have a 24" fixture, right? See if you can get some higher output bulbs here:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/fish-...luorescent-bulb-lamp/ps/c/3578/3733/8066?s=ts



Ideally, you want one bulb in the 5000k spectrum and the other in the 6500k. Since you already have a fixture, there is no need to waste money for some clip on lights. They aren't that cheap either. About $10 each. Adding 3 of those and some bulbs, you can almost get a new light fixtures too. 

The wpg rule may apply in your case since your light fixture is T8. Anything over 2wpg is consider high medium to high light. You don't want that without CO2. 

One of the rules in planted tank aquarium is never limiting your ferts and nutrients. Just because the dirt may leak some nurtients into the water column, it does not mean that they are enough. Look up EI dosing. You may not need to dose at the recommended dosage. Maybe half or less.


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

wrm130 said:


> -I do not wait 3 weeks to introduce fish, though I do introduce hardier fish first. My dirt tanks cycle in about a week without any additives, which is quicker than any aquarium substrates I've tried.
> -The organic content of the dirt helps to cycle the tank as well as supports a huge bacterial colony.
> -Physical re-scaping is an impossible nightmare but moving plants can easily be done with patience, care and forethought(cut the huge roots!)
> -C02 is NOT needed in a dirted tank. The decomposition of the organic material provides sufficient c02 for healthy plant growth
> ...



Whether or not you need CO2 is determined by your light intensity.....not by the type of substrates you are using....


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## cmichaelcooper (Jul 11, 2013)

wrm130 said:


> if you really want to cheap out on lighting, get some clamp on shop lights....the silver bowl type clamp on ones. Then go to walmart and get some 6700k daylight spiral bulbs. Good to go You could use 2 or 3 over your tank. Cheap cheap


I saw some photos of that kind of setup, and I'm impressed by how inexpensive it can be. Currently I have a 24" Aqueon T5 with 2 lamps at 14w a piece. Since the 30gL is 30" long, there are dark areas on either side of the tank. Should I switch the lighting out for the CFLs? I could raise the T5 off the tank a bit, but would that affect the penetration of the light?


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## cmichaelcooper (Jul 11, 2013)

tetra73 said:


> The wpg rule may apply in your case since your light fixture is T8.


My lamp is a T5, it's just not high output. Does that change the context of what you wrote?


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

cmichaelcooper said:


> My lamp is a T5, it's just not high output. Does that change the context of what you wrote?


Sorry, that was a wrong link. I am trying to see if they sell any t5 bulbs. The other link only shows t8...


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

cmichaelcooper said:


> My lamp is a T5, it's just not high output. Does that change the context of what you wrote?


OK, it looks like you can't get more higher light output from your 24" bulbs. So, you can get maybe 2 clip on lights from Homedepot. 2 cfl bulbs 15w to 20w. 6500k daylight color.


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## cmichaelcooper (Jul 11, 2013)

Lighting is such a conundrum...

My original thought with this tank was that I wanted to set up some sort of CO2 injection system so that I could learn to regulate and measure the CO2 saturation, as my 75 gallon tank has 216 watts of light, but has been completely destroyed by BBA. But now I'm feeling like I want to keep lower light on the tank so I can keep it low tech.

With clip lights I feel like I will need 3 lights for good coverage. If I use 13w bulbs, it puts me at 39w total, just under 2wpg. Will that put me at a level where I need to have a CO2 system? Will dosing with Excel cover it?


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## PeterN1986 (Jun 15, 2011)

Toss out the wpg rule; it's obsolete. For low-tech, just bite the bullet and get the 24" FugeRay and cross it off your list of things to consider. Then you can dose with Excel if you are dosing EI.


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## cmichaelcooper (Jul 11, 2013)

PeterN1986 said:


> Toss out the wpg rule; it's obsolete. For low-tech, just bite the bullet and get the 24" FugeRay and cross it off your list of things to consider. Then you can dose with Excel if you are dosing EI.


That looks like a pretty decent LED at a good price. I wish I had seen that before buying the T5 lamp. Thanks for the link.


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

cmichaelcooper said:


> Lighting is such a conundrum...
> 
> My original thought with this tank was that I wanted to set up some sort of CO2 injection system so that I could learn to regulate and measure the CO2 saturation, as my 75 gallon tank has 216 watts of light, but has been completely destroyed by BBA. But now I'm feeling like I want to keep lower light on the tank so I can keep it low tech.
> 
> With clip lights I feel like I will need 3 lights for good coverage. If I use 13w bulbs, it puts me at 39w total, just under 2wpg. Will that put me at a level where I need to have a CO2 system? Will dosing with Excel cover it?



You and I have the same tank and length. I am currently trying out a low tech, dirt tank and dosing with excel with a 20g long. I have a 40g high tech tank with 78w T5HO light and pressurized CO2 and dosing with EI dosing. It has been up for over 2 years. Went through a lot of changes. You can even get some 15w to 20w bulbs. Since the reflector on these clip on lights are not that great, I doubt that you would have too much lights using two 20 watts bulbs. Get them up a bit, 6 inches above the water and you should have enough coverage.


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

cmichaelcooper said:


> That looks like a pretty decent LED at a good price. I wish I had seen that before buying the T5 lamp. Thanks for the link.



Don't know about being decent price since they cost the same as T5HO fixtures. BTW, that model is considered medium light, I think. CO2 is definitely needed as well as EI dosing. 

Look at here:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=160396


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## thebuddha (Jul 16, 2012)

cmichaelcooper said:


> With clip lights I feel like I will need 3 lights for good coverage. If I use 13w bulbs, it puts me at 39w total, just under 2wpg. Will that put me at a level where I need to have a CO2 system? Will dosing with Excel cover it?





PeterN1986 said:


> Toss out the wpg rule; it's obsolete. For low-tech, just bite the bullet and get the 24" FugeRay and cross it off your list of things to consider. Then you can dose with Excel if you are dosing EI.



If you go with the clamp lights, try spray painting the domes black. Looks way nicer IMO. And if you go with the fugeray, consider fitting window screen over the light to reduce the par. The fugeray is a lot of light for your shallow 20 long.


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## cmichaelcooper (Jul 11, 2013)

tetra73 said:


> Don't know about being decent price since they cost the same as T5HO fixtures.


It seems like a good price for me after doing research on LED lighting for my reef tank. Also considering the lower power consumption and shimmer, the LED seems to have quite a bit more value than a T5HO for the money. However, I'm not sure what I'm going to do with the T5 if I replace it, so it seems like a bit of a waste. Definitely a debate going on over lighting.

I guess the ultimate question on whether or not I need to change my lighting is if my 28 watts of light will be enough even for low light plants. If not, then I obviously will need to do something about lighting.


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## wrm130 (Jan 16, 2013)

tetra73 said:


> Whether or not you need CO2 is determined by your light intensity.....not by the type of substrates you are using....


In a regular tank I'll 100% agree with this. Light is the gas pedal where ferts and c02 are fuel. Better have enough to keep up! 

A dirted tank is a whole different story though. The decomposition of the dirt will provide sufficient c02 for your plants.

Tetra73: This may be of interest to you. I also have a 20Long and 40Long. The 20 has 78watts 2" over the tank and the 40Long has 216 directly ontop. I dose nothing and add no excel.

Dirt is the best thing that can happen to anybody. As long as you plant heavily enough you can go crazy with lights.


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## cmichaelcooper (Jul 11, 2013)

wrm130 said:


> As long as you plant heavily enough you can go crazy with lights.


So if I want to make sure I plant heavily enough at the start, what mix of plants should I start with, and how many? I don't know if that is a fair question because the issue is complex and there are a lot of options, but how do I know when I have enough?


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## wrm130 (Jan 16, 2013)

Try to plant >50% of the tank. More more more if possible

A mix of stem plants (hygro, ludwigia, moneywort, elodea densa, anacharis) and root feeders (vals and swords) is a great way to start.

Floating plants like duckweed, salvinia and watersprite are great nutrient sponges for when you start the tank too.


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## cmichaelcooper (Jul 11, 2013)

wrm130 said:


> Try to plant >50% of the tank. More more more if possible
> 
> A mix of stem plants (hygro, ludwigia, moneywort, elodea densa, anacharis) and root feeders (vals and swords) is a great way to start.
> 
> Floating plants like duckweed, salvinia and watersprite are great nutrient sponges for when you start the tank too.


Is there a carpeting plant that you would recommend? It seems like carpeting plants want a lot of light.

Should I just bite the bullet and increase the light on the tank and start injecting CO2?


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## wrm130 (Jan 16, 2013)

Once again, C02 is NOT needed for a dirted tank. The decomp of the dirt is enough. My 30g was 7wpg right ontop. No issues.

Here's a pic of my 6g with a hemianthus micranthemoides carpet. I'm running 30w of spiral lights, no c02, great growth and crazy pearling.


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

cmichaelcooper said:


> Is there a carpeting plant that you would recommend? It seems like carpeting plants want a lot of light.
> 
> Should I just bite the bullet and increase the light on the tank and start injecting CO2?



There are the ones recommended by others:

Marselia minuta or the 4 leaf clover would do, dwarf sagittaria, Lilaeopsis mauritiana, and Helanthium tenellum (formerly Echinodorus tenellus). Is ok to have more light as long as you can reduce the intensity by lifting the fixture higher or putting a screen over the tank cover. I won't recommend using CO2 and high light because the tank is too small. Many plants would grow too large with CO2, EI dosing, and high light. You no longer have a low tech tank.


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## cmichaelcooper (Jul 11, 2013)

wrm130 said:


> Once again, C02 is NOT needed for a dirted tank. The decomp of the dirt is enough. My 30g was 7wpg right ontop. No issues.
> 
> Here's a pic of my 6g with a hemianthus micranthemoides carpet. I'm running 30w of spiral lights, no c02, great growth and crazy pearling.


Are those growing so well because of the CO2 coming from the dirt, or from all the light they are receiving?


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## wrm130 (Jan 16, 2013)

cmichaelcooper said:


> Are those growing so well because of the CO2 coming from the dirt, or from all the light they are receiving?


Yes


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## pantherspawn (Dec 21, 2011)

Jeez guys.. Way to confuse someone who's trying to start up for the first time.. How bout just keep it simple for Now and as you get more comfortable with your setup, try out other things. You're always going to get outbreaks of different types of algae, don't let it get you down, just try to figure out what imbalance is causing it and adjust. Don't overwhelm yourself early on cause it will burn you out and frustrate you to no end. You have plenty of time to try out different setups if you wish, that's part of the fun of being a tank owner. 

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 2


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## cmichaelcooper (Jul 11, 2013)

pantherspawn said:


> Jeez guys.. Way to confuse someone who's trying to start up for the first time.. How bout just keep it simple for Now and as you get more comfortable with your setup, try out other things. You're always going to get outbreaks of different types of algae, don't let it get you down, just try to figure out what imbalance is causing it and adjust. Don't overwhelm yourself early on cause it will burn you out and frustrate you to no end. You have plenty of time to try out different setups if you wish, that's part of the fun of being a tank owner.


It's not really their fault as I'm the one that is asking for the advice they are giving. I understand what I'm being told I think, and I'm definitely understanding more clearly why some of my other tanks have worked and why most have failed.

I think my biggest mistake happened when I switched from pool filter sand to Eco complete. I was under the impression that EC provided nutrients, so I didn't replace the root tabs. I was growing primarily jungle vals and I think it started to starve out. Then I upgraded the light hoping it would help, and since the plants couldn't use what nutrients were in the water, it was the perfect environment for the algae. Add a nice nitrate spike via dirty sponge filter while being out of town and its hair algae city.

After doing some research, I think using the MGOCPM is going to give me a good chance of success. I think I'm going to get the fugeray light, because I can always reduce the intensity, while I cannot increase the intensity of the T5 I have now. If what I'm being told about CO2 production in the soil doesn't work, then I will find a CO2 solution.

Ultimately this 20 gallon setup is a practice run for figuring out my 75 gallon that was invaded by BBA. It has 216 watts of T5HO lighting, but the same EC substrate as the 20. At this point I am wondering if dirt is the way to go in that tank due to the CO2 production of the soil. Since it is a drilled tank with a sump, that should reduce the CO2 off-gassing caused by all of the water movement.

Anyway, sorry for rambling!


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

cmichaelcooper said:


> It's not really their fault as I'm the one that is asking for the advice they are giving. I understand what I'm being told I think, and I'm definitely understanding more clearly why some of my other tanks have worked and why most have failed.
> 
> I think my biggest mistake happened when I switched from pool filter sand to Eco complete. I was under the impression that EC provided nutrients, so I didn't replace the root tabs. I was growing primarily jungle vals and I think it started to starve out. Then I upgraded the light hoping it would help, and since the plants couldn't use what nutrients were in the water, it was the perfect environment for the algae. Add a nice nitrate spike via dirty sponge filter while being out of town and its hair algae city.
> 
> ...



I am still skeptical about the whole dirt tank not needing CO2 with high light.  Even so, the CO2 level can't be consistent enough to battle against BBA. Let's put it this way, if you are getting enough CO2 from the dirt under high light to battle against BBA, your CO2 level would also be high enough to kill your fish.  I guess we have to ask Tom about the science behind "dirt substrate manufacturering it own CO2 as a replacement for CO2 gas, even under high lighting."


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## wrm130 (Jan 16, 2013)

Dirt has been one of the hardest things to "sell" people on. The C02/dirt thing has been explained to me by the OVAS president. I was honestly unaware of this phenomenon until it was explained to me. I simply accepted it (seems logical) and parroted it  I personally thought the plant growth and tank stability was simply a result of sufficient nutrients.

That being said, though I've managed to grow everything I've tried, I recently failed with Tonina Belem and though I managed to grow pogostemon stellatus, it was rather thin. So my solve all may not be as good as I think. And I don't know about using dirt to 'battle' BBA. It's just never been an issue in my tanks...

So as not to Hijack this thread, I am going to start another regarding high light and dirt.


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## cmichaelcooper (Jul 11, 2013)

tetra73 said:


> I am still skeptical about the whole dirt tank not needing CO2 with high light.  Even so, the CO2 level can't be consistent enough to battle against BBA. Let's put it this way, if you are getting enough CO2 from the dirt under high light to battle against BBA, your CO2 level would also be high enough to kill your fish.  I guess we have to ask Tom about the science behind "dirt substrate manufacturering it own CO2 as a replacement for CO2 gas, even under high lighting."


I don't know if this is the right place to ask, but is CO2 also critical in nature and if so where does it come from?


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## PeterN1986 (Jun 15, 2011)

...CO2 is in the atmosphere dude...we exhale CO2. All our air pollution and emissions? CO2. Plants and trees are big mitigators for them since they use CO2 from the atmosphere.


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## cmichaelcooper (Jul 11, 2013)

PeterN1986 said:


> ...CO2 is in the atmosphere dude...we exhale CO2. All our air pollution and emissions? CO2. Plants and trees are big mitigators for them since they use CO2 from the atmosphere.


Sorry if that made me sound like a moron. :icon_redf I guess my question was more centered around how that CO2 dissolves into natural bodies of water. Does it mimic CO2 injection techniques, or does it primarily come from the break down of organic materials in the soils.


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

PeterN1986 said:


> ...CO2 is in the atmosphere dude...we exhale CO2. All our air pollution and emissions? CO2. Plants and trees are big mitigators for them since they use CO2 from the atmosphere.



No, I don't rely on urban myths in this hobby to setup and run my tanks, fyi.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

If you want to do without injection Co2 the aqueon light would be best. 

I am using it on my 29G low tech tank with the colormax bulb. I feel the colormax bulb helps plants with pink in them. I will be using it over a 20G long too.

Easy plants are Wisteria, sagittaria and crypts. They just need a rich substrate. Then there are ferns, moss and anubias that don't need much of anything. I have had them grow in a 10g tank with only light from a south window.

Check out the Barr Report . Here low tech tanks (some add Co2). Here low tech tanks non Co2. El-Natural forum (dirt tanks)


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