# why does no one seem to suggest red clay



## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Because it's easier to recommend a commercial substrate like Flourite or Ecocomplete to beginners than it is to describe how to set up a more natural substrate that still has the potential of killing off the tank. Don't take this wrong, all my tanks are a soil/clay mix under gravel, but I have no qualms telling a beginner to go the easy route so they learn how to deal with water chemistry and algae batles in a tank that is easier to balance. 

BTW I'd forget the vermiculite and use mineralized topsoil instead. roud:


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## steven (Jul 7, 2004)

2 questions:

1. What risks do you see in using the red clay?

2. Why the topsoil rather than the vermiculite? The vermiculite gives the mix a very "light and airy" texture, presumably making it very easy for the plants to grow roots in.

Please don't think I'm questioning your ideas, I'm just always looking for new perspectives.

Thanks,
Steven


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## zapus (May 26, 2004)

Did you have any problems with the clay staying in suspension in the water column? Red clay particles are almost colloidal in size and would tend to stay suspended if disturbed, I would think (Just look at any river in the Georgia Piedmont). Wonder what would happen if you fired some kitty-litter sized particles in a potters kiln? I seem to recall from my Forest Soils class that red clay has a rather high aluminum content, but if it's been used sucessfully before it must not present any toxicity problems. I may have to give it a try, if it works I could sell off my yard on aquabid


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

I used to be able to get 40 pound bags of "clay" from a LFS that basically looked like finely crushed red brick or terra cotta, the plants did wonderfully in it and it was rather cheap as well, but now guy can't remeber where he got it from and everything he's ordered in since is rather high priced "laterite" which would cost a fortune to cover just a 29.

I use Flourite now simply because it's easy, it works and it doesn't have the problems I've experienced with layering gravel over soil or similar substances.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I have used clay/loam in my substrates and while it works great for growing plants, the drawback is that you need a lot of patience or a diatom filter (I have both!) when relocating larger specimens with big root systems.


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## Newticus (Jul 9, 2004)

Speaking of clay, i'm assuming clay is the same as fuller's earth. I just bought a bag of Profile, aquatic plant soil. I had gone to Canadian Tire looking for peat and found this under their pond display stand. It's not supposed to float, cloud the water, or effect the pH. It says it's some kind of mineral that's been kiln fired making ceramic granuels. One of my concerns is it says because it's inert barcteria won't grow in it. It's referring to harmful bacteria on the back of the bag, but i'm still not sure.
as well because it's inert will it provide any nourishment to plants, or would it only be good because it's porous and would absorb liquid firtilizers? 
and one last thing, would i have to still add someform of plant soil, like peat, or topsoil or what have you?

If this is a viable option, it's a nicely affordable one


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

It sounds almsot like the stuff I have, is it reddish?

I did find this for you:

http://www.reade.com/Products/Minerals_and_Ores/fuller's_earth.html

From a uick study, it appears it's really just bentonite clay, I use it for soaking oil in my garage, in fact it's called "Oil Soak" on the bag.


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## Newticus (Jul 9, 2004)

yeah it's a dusty reddish colour

so it should be fine?
and i should add flourite, or topsoil as well?


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## zapus (May 26, 2004)

Seems I have seen Profile listed in the signatures of some members (Yup, see wasser's), but can't recall whether they used it straight or mixed it, probably both. Kitty litter has also been used as a substrate as well, but is apparently somewhat controversial.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Search: Profile

Search: Schultz

Search: Litter

Lotsa stuff to read! roud:


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

I guess I'm supposed to answer these since no one else did, and I initiated the discussion too, didn't I. :icon_bigg



steven said:


> 2 questions:
> 
> 1. What risks do you see in using the red clay?
> 
> ...


 First let me say, PLEASE question ideas, no one has a good idea that is so well thought out that someone asking the tough questions would be wasting their time. 

OK 

1) These are some *possible* problems, not *probable* problems, pestisides and herbicides, pollutants, toxic chemicals. Unless you can verify that nothing has come in contact with the clay for a while you have these risks. 

I can't verify this with the commercial topsoils I buy, and I didn't verify IRONITE but that's another story, BTW: Thanks Rex. 

I would use the red clay, I'd even go collect some if I weren't happy with buying potters red clay. I also wet and dry my soils to try to complete the decompossition of humis which helps wash away pollutants.

2) Mineralized topsoil (MT) is a nutrient milkshake for plants, vermiculite(V) is nothing. MT is a great medium for plant roots, V tries to add something to the medium that isn't needed in an aquatic environment. MT binds to clay particles keeping the clay from going into suspension when you disturb the substrate, and keeping the clay mixed into the substrate where it can adsorb and release nutrients that are 'released' in the substrate from the soil, V can't take up enough of the substrate to do this better than MT.
V floats, yuck.

Beginners, do not use soil, please.


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## steven (Jul 7, 2004)

Based on your description, I deffinately like the idea of the mineralized topsoil. My only big complaint from my experience with clay was the suspension issue. Whenever disrupted, the substrate takes a few days to settle back down. If the MT will prevent this, that's great. I thought though that the vermiculite helped keep the clay from packing and resisting the roots. Does the MT have a similar impact? What have you found to be a good ratio of the clay to the MT?

Will I find MT in a garden center of a store like Home Depot or Lowe's? Will the bag actually say "mineralized topsoil"?

Thanks,
Steven


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

I set up a MT/clay substrate in a ten gallon tank, capped with regular gravel, filled it up and accidentilly let it sit for a year, no rooted plants. I planted a couple sag subulata and crypt spiralis and they over took the tank. I think the substrate was as packed as it might get and the plants managed to get through it.

MT can say mineralized on the bag, however, not all parts of the country get bagged topsoil from the same place. I can't tell you what's in the topsoil in your area, I can tell you that you will want to give it the wet and dry treatment to ensure that any humis in it will finish decomposing before you use it. My ratio is a chef's ratio, what looks good today, all I can say is the soil is much greater than the clay in the mix.

Proceed with caution.


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## Newticus (Jul 9, 2004)

Why shouldn't beginners use soil?
and do you mean beginners to aquatic plants or just to aquariums in general?

As well, i have kiln fired clay like granuels, and i think slate chips as a top gravel. I haven't actually put anything together yet because i'm trying to do this as right as possible the first time. 
Anyway
If i layered with clay, soil and gravel
would i put an inch of clay, and say 2 inches of topsoil, and an inch or so of gravel?
It is ok to use gravel right?, i'd need something to keep the soil down?


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Newticus said:


> Why shouldn't beginners use soil?


 Because there are too many variables that can go wrong and if the tank becomes a stinking mess there is a good chance of 'the beginner' dropping out of the hobby. I'd rather help someone achieve success the first time then try to work them through several algae blooms.


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## Newticus (Jul 9, 2004)

so if one uses a layer of fired clay and a layer or gravel the plants would get the nutrients they need, and grow alright?
or perhaps a layer of still plyable clay, and gravel?
or just gravel?

so many questions ^_^
It's kind of a large investment, i don't really want every thing to turn brown and stringy


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Newticus said:


> It's kind of a large investment, i don't really want every thing to turn brown and stringy


 That's why I tell people to buy Eco-Complete.:icon_roll


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

SCMurphy said:


> That's why I tell people to buy Eco-Complete.:icon_roll


Sean, you're just no fun anymore :hihi: 

Just to muddy the waters (ho ho) a little, I followed Sean's recipe with dirt out of my front yard as the MS. I have to say, it was sheer luck that my soil just happened to be perfect for that kind of application, and it worked out Great. And I'm practically a newbie and everything (only a year in, planted).

I encourage everyone to try New and Dangerous combinations of unstable compounds just for the experience, but don't do it in a tank you care about (at first). Why not set up a little 10 with dirt-cheap substrate and see how it goes. For myself, even though I've only been at it a short time, I've tried a number of slightly more risky setups in my small tanks, happily without a disaster so far (but not without a lot of work). I was thinking I might not go that way in my next tank after all, since I already suffered the nosebleed buying the expensive substrate, but if I had not I would do the Sean thing again with some cheap gravel on top.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

aquaverde said:


> Sean, you're just no fun anymore :hihi:


 :icon_roll I knew I shoulda stayed a planted tank hermit. :wink:


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

I don't think that would make anyone happy, here at least. You haven't been coming up much on the radar as it is.


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## Newticus (Jul 9, 2004)

ok, so maybe the easiest is to use eco-compleat, but would it work if i had a layer of inert fired clay bits and gravel? Or if i do that do i have to add nutrients in the some form or another (soil)?

If it'd doable, i think i'd like to try the challange of not premade substrate even if it requires some helpful hints from you knowledgable folk ^_^


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

Sure, it works realy well. I have it in two tanks. Not necessary to put soil in, I did put some peat in, but even that is not necessary. Mulm is a great additive.


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## Newticus (Jul 9, 2004)

awsome, thanks ^_^


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## hokuryu (Jan 6, 2009)

Newticus said:


> Speaking of clay, i'm assuming clay is the same as fuller's earth. I just bought a bag of Profile, aquatic plant soil. I had gone to Canadian Tire looking for peat and found this under their pond display stand. It's not supposed to float, cloud the water, or effect the pH. It says it's some kind of mineral that's been kiln fired making ceramic granuels. One of my concerns is it says because it's inert barcteria won't grow in it. It's referring to harmful bacteria on the back of the bag, but i'm still not sure.
> as well because it's inert will it provide any nourishment to plants, or would it only be good because it's porous and would absorb liquid firtilizers?
> and one last thing, would i have to still add someform of plant soil, like peat, or topsoil or what have you?
> 
> If this is a viable option, it's a nicely affordable one


Old thread, but as I am determined to make some mineralized topsoil, and on the hunt for needed materials (thank you, Michu, for the dolomite and potash - :thumbsup, I was researching the idea of buying red clay powder, and came to this thread. A few things:

From what I've seen, Fuller's Earth would be problematic, would it not? It seems very hard to pin down exactly what is in the particular lot of Earth - but as it can contain magnesium oxide, calcite, even quartz, it seems one would run risks - correct?

I thought a powder would be good, in order to more easily mix in to the mineralized soil. Vitamin Shoppe has something called "Indian Healing Clay," which they list as 100% pure bentonite:

http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=SW-1001


Haven't looked enough yet at Bentonite's properties, but seems there are at least some reasons to give pause, among them its pretty variable/impure constituency, and its lack of iron. 

Searching for something in red clay, presuming a high iron content, I came across "Moroccan Red Clay Powder," which the company lists as pure Illite:

http://www.nowfoods.com/Products/PersonalCare/M004153

Illite seems seems to have high CEC (wiki lists it as intermediate between smectite and kaolinite, the independent study below lists Illite's CEC as "high"), and as it also seems to be fairly high in iron content, would something like this be a good choice?

Just came across this, by the way, which is a breakdown of several substrate options and their mineral content - for what it's worth:

http://home.infinet.net/teban/jamie.htm

Interestingly, "Turface" seems another option, and I hadn't thought of the issue of kiln firing and "activating" the CEC ability, something I cursorily read over earlier this morning, but have forgotten. Anyone with any thoughts on this issue?


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Fire kindled clay would be good to use a cap largely owing to high CEC, but for this recipe I would not use it in the soil itself as you want something that will bind with the soil. I can only speak from my experience but when I did use Schultz Aquatic Soil which is really fire kindled fuller's earth I had some issues but I don't believe they were substrate related. Much...much later(too little too late), I pinpointed the issues to be related to light and overstocking. The water parameters were pretty stable even when things were at their worst. You can read more about the tank here: http://azdhan.googlepages.com/thelostworld Some folks have also experienced major issues with Turface and SMS messing too much with water parameters(PH and KH), so I personally would not risk using them.

One of the problems with the mineralized topsoil method is to predict how a substitution of different clays, brand names of soils, and even dolomite will work without actually trying and observing what happens. Hey, if someone wants to test and let us know, I am all for it, but I know it is not something I want to do. I know this does not directly answer your question, but my suggestion would be to stick as closely to the ingredients as they are for the original MT recipe right down to the brand of clay and soil or as close as possible. If soil is an issue, then double up on the soak and dry cycles. As far as clay, I believe Aaron and Sean have been using Potter's clay from a pottery supplies shop. You can also use laterite clay for aquariums, but that can get almost as expensive as using a commercial substrate. I just happen to have some laterite laying around from long ago, so that is what I will be using. However, there is a pottery supply shop in my city that carries natural clay containing different different amounts of iron. However, this is a one shot thing for me. I had considered producing and selling topsoil kits cheap to help fellow hobbyists in my city, but considering the difficulty in even locating the proper dolomite, I won't bother. I also have Michu to thank for her kindness in sending me the correct dolomite so I can at least experiment with this method on a one-time basis. 



hokuryu said:


> Old thread, but as I am determined to make some mineralized topsoil, and on the hunt for needed materials (thank you, Michu, for the dolomite and potash - :thumbsup, I was researching the idea of buying red clay powder, and came to this thread. A few things:
> 
> From what I've seen, Fuller's Earth would be problematic, would it not? It seems very hard to pin down exactly what is in the particular lot of Earth - but as it can contain magnesium oxide, calcite, even quartz, it seems one would run risks - correct?
> 
> ...


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## hokuryu (Jan 6, 2009)

Thanks, Homer. I definitely agree with your notion of sticking to the "recipe" down to the precise materials used, because otherwise, with any issues, one can't easily pinpoint what went wrong, with so many possible variables. The problem I'm finding is that no one sells clay in increments of less than 25 lbs., in many instances, 50 lbs. The most I need is 2 - 4 lbs, by my estimation, and by the time I get done purchasing the 25-50 lbs of pottery clay, I've essentially purchased premium substrate. 

Thanks also for the info on Turface and SMS. One of the reasons I think I was triggered by the idea of pure Illite powder is a thread, maybe on APC, where someone queried Aaron on powder, might have been montmorillonite, and he seemed to think it would work well - but I also seem to recall the user was doing this as an experiment, so don't know what the results were, if any. 

Perhaps Sean or Aaron, or a geologist might come on?


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

I thought someone suggested a source for a red clay that could be had in lots under 10 pounds.
This place has it 5 pounds $8
This one is 5 lbs $7.29
I have not dealt with any of these companies. I did not check the shipping cost. This is the clay type I use, Malone red.
Edit for another link:5 lbs. $7.50
This one is $6


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## hokuryu (Jan 6, 2009)

SCMurphy said:


> I thought someone suggested a source for a red clay that could be had in lots under 10 pounds.
> This place has it 5 pounds $8
> This one is 5 lbs $7.29
> I have not dealt with either of these companies. I did not check the shipping cost. This is the clay type I use, Malone red.


Thanks, Sean. I actually got ahold of some clay locally, after a bit of wrangling, straight terra cotta, red pottery clay - would this work well? 

By the way, don't know if you saw it - but along the lines of adding in K2SO4 during the mineralization process, any reason not to lay in a light bit of KH2PO4, along with dolomite. for phosphorus?

Edit: That clay on the site looks exactly like what I got, from a Chicago art school. Thanks for the link - great resource.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

SCMurphy said:


> Because there are too many variables that can go wrong and if the tank becomes a stinking mess there is a good chance of 'the beginner' dropping out of the hobby. I'd rather help someone achieve success the first time then try to work them through several algae blooms.


Ditto 100%.

I use delta clay loam here. It's every bit as good if not better than ADA AS, but ADA AS is easier, consistent, folks can buy it everywhere etc.
The delta clay is free. But I have to go get it, process and wash it, screen out the twigs etc. Lot of work. 

Then let it sit for a few days.
It's not something I want to uproot and prune often with either. If I top things etc, am careful, not an issue. ADA As is less messy. 

But it's a lot more issue for newbies and a lot more places to go wrong with. 
Like SCMurphy , I'm less inclined to suggest it unless folks have a decent understanding about gardening and that this is really something they'd like to try.

Kitty litter works fairly well also.

I would like to see more folks use sediments with N and P, some organic matter etc, in addition to water column dosing that's not $$$ ADA aqua soil.

But there's this trade off.

I'm not interested in washing and shipping off delta clay either, even if I sold it for ADA prices. The labor and effort ain't worth it to me.

I've always used mulm and peat, "dirty sand". 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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