# Will I be okay will this much sand over the soil? Walstad Method



## Sappire (Aug 8, 2019)

https://imgur.com/a/QBtqtks 

I am going to take some of the plants out of this tank and put it into my 50 gal that I'm setting up here, I do however have a few questions. 

I tried my best to get the soil even, and I used a under how much soil I am 'supposed' to use, that isn't my concern though. My concern is I have added sand, about a 2 centimeter layer of sand that's very much like beach sand (probably is, just cleaned and sold in packets) but I'm afraid it's possibly too much, but then it's not completely even so in some areas the sand is deeper than others. I have read that too much sand can suffocate the soil, I have linked below a photo of the 50 gal, I followed Gecko Jo's tutorial like last time and pushed the soil away a bit from the front just to make the tank look a bit more appealing. https://imgur.com/a/aPNSejJ

I'm not too sure what plants I have in the small tank, but they are doing wonders and look very happy! I'm hoping even if I have a little too much sand maybe the plants will still be able to oxygenate the water and soil. Should I take a layer of sand off just in case? I've also jot 5 pieces of drift wood I am planning on adding, they are quite big and they do fit because I used them at my last house but is it too much for the walstad method? Since the plants need light? Albeit low light but still.

Sorry for the barrage of questions.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

2cm of sand is not too much. 1-2 inches is fine which would be up to 5cm of sand over 2.5cm of soil. 

Your soil WILL go anaerobic at some point early on. But if you plant heavily enough the roots of the plants will grow down into the soil and oxygenate it thus keeping the anaerobic bacteria at bay/eliminated. Thats why you can't go too deep with sand. Deep sand will compact the sand further down and make it so roots can not penetrate it sufficiently to get to the soil.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

2cm is fine if sand is the proper 1-3mm grain size. Anything smaller and soil will suffocate.


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## Sappire (Aug 8, 2019)

minorhero said:


> 2cm of sand is not too much. 1-2 inches is fine which would be up to 5cm of sand over 2.5cm of soil.
> 
> Your soil WILL go anaerobic at some point early on. But if you plant heavily enough the roots of the plants will grow down into the soil and oxygenate it thus keeping the anaerobic bacteria at bay/eliminated. Thats why you can't go too deep with sand. Deep sand will compact the sand further down and make it so roots can not penetrate it sufficiently to get to the soil.


Okay, So I'm guessing I should be fine as long as I push the plant roots deep into the soil as well as stay away from plants that need to be a bit above the substrate so their little enzymes or something get light?

Bump:


DaveKS said:


> 2cm is fine if sand is the proper 1-3mm grain size. Anything smaller and soil will suffocate.


I'm using this sand: https://www.aquael.pl/en/produkty/aquaristics/substrates-gravels/piaski-kwarcowe/


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

I've watched a couple different methods and one popular youtuber uses nearly 4 inches of soil in some spots. I wouldn't worry too terribly much about too much sand unless you are just going over board. I use about 2 cm of soil capped in 3 to 4 cm of sand regularly. Just set up my second dirt tank. First one was a 125g that I had for about a year. No issues with the soil.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Sappire said:


> Okay, So I'm guessing I should be fine as long as I push the plant roots deep into the soil as well as stay away from plants that need to be a bit above the substrate so their little enzymes or something get light?
> 
> Bump:
> 
> I'm using this sand: https://www.aquael.pl/en/produkty/aquaristics/substrates-gravels/piaski-kwarcowe/


You dont have to push them in any deeper then usual. The plants will grow down. But something like java fern or anubias wont get any benefit from dirt tank since they get their nutrients from the water not the substrate. So you can certainly have those types of plants, just don't rely on them to oxygenate your soil and they wont grow any better in a dirt tank then they would an inert substrate tank.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

That’s .1-.3mm sugar sand. Way to fine. 

Sand on left here is proper size. Graded quartz pool filter sand, about $12US here for 50LB (22 kilogram). It’s smallest pieces are around 1.0mm.


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## Raith (Jun 27, 2014)

I'm probably on the other side of the spectrum than most people, but I have an aquarium running for 3+ years so far, it's soil, capped with a mixture of playsand, and PFS, and the thickness is easily 2+ inches, easily. It hasn't caused issues, and knock on wood, hopefully it doesn't ever.


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## Sappire (Aug 8, 2019)

DaveKS said:


> That’s .1-.3mm sugar sand. Way to fine.
> 
> Sand on left here is proper size. Graded quartz pool filter sand, about $12US here for 50LB (22 kilogram). It’s smallest pieces are around 1.0mm.


I've already filled the tank and am now cycling it with previous tank filer media. Surely I'll be okay? My main tank has this sand and is going fine.

Bump:


Raith said:


> I'm probably on the other side of the spectrum than most people, but I have an aquarium running for 3+ years so far, it's soil, capped with a mixture of playsand, and PFS, and the thickness is easily 2+ inches, easily. It hasn't caused issues, and knock on wood, hopefully it doesn't ever.


Wow! I guess it really depends, the plants are meant to oxygenate the soil aren't they? Is the waste from fish meant to fall through the sand into the soil? I don't remember what Diana's book said about that.

Bump:


minorhero said:


> You dont have to push them in any deeper then usual. The plants will grow down. But something like java fern or anubias wont get any benefit from dirt tank since they get their nutrients from the water not the substrate. So you can certainly have those types of plants, just don't rely on them to oxygenate your soil and they wont grow any better in a dirt tank then they would an inert substrate tank.


I don't use Anubias or Java fern, I might use a bit, but ultimately I'm sticking with the plants my main tank has. I don't know if I linked the photo of my 13 gal, but the runners have roots that have grown all over the place.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

There a reason why Walstad recommends a certain size substrate as a cap. Ignore that recommendation if you want.


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## Sappire (Aug 8, 2019)

DaveKS said:


> There a reason why Walstad recommends a certain size substrate as a cap. Ignore that recommendation if you want.


I was planning on keeping bottom dwellers that did better with sand and not gravel. Diana Walstad has had nothing bad to say about the sand I was using. I have been in touch with her before this. 

Can you please tell what you think will happen to my tank if I continue with this sand? What do you recommend I do?


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

She recommends in her book to use 2-4mm size, so 1-3mm I show above is actually smaller than she recommended. It’s all about pore size between grains and allowing soil to breath. With your current sand I wouldn’t go over 1cm thick and I would also point circulation pump directly at substrate to push water past sand layer. 1-3mm is sand, perfect size for bottom dwelling/rooting species.

Otherwise you develop hard anoxic pockets anywhere plant roots can’t keep oxygen levels up and as soon as those anoxic pockets develop, you will have random water parameter swings, plants randomly rotting from root up which will further escalate the anoxic activity as well having uncontrollable surges of undesirable algae which will cover plants and substrate even further escalating the putrid nature of soil beneath the sand.


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## Sappire (Aug 8, 2019)

DaveKS said:


> She recommends in her book to use 2-4mm size, so 1-3mm I show above is actually smaller than she recommended. It’s all about pore size between grains and allowing soil to breath. With your current sand I wouldn’t go over 1cm thick and I would also point circulation pump directly at substrate to push water past sand layer. 1-3mm is sand, perfect size for bottom dwelling/rooting species.
> 
> Otherwise you develop hard anoxic pockets anywhere plant roots can’t keep oxygen levels up and as soon as those anoxic pockets develop, you will have random water parameter swings, plants randomly rotting from root up which will further escalate the anoxic activity as well having uncontrollable surges of undesirable algae which will cover plants and substrate even further escalating the putrid nature of soil beneath the sand.


As I said, it's uneven, it's mostly around 1 cm most areas and maybe 2 in a couple. The more plants the better though, right? What would you do? Should I leave it or rebuild the tank?


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

I myself would rather set it up correctly at the beginning. You referred to 2cm average thickness in your original post. The pic you posted, if this is a 50gal tank, seems to support that thickness. I’m seeing soil bed pulled away from front glass for aesthetics then 2cm+- for sand bed on average.

If you add water circulation so that there is water pushed at sand bed to force micro-currents into soil bed and also install long establishing crown type plants like crypts and swords that make a oxygenating network of roots that you very rarely disturb it could sustain itself. 

You’ll need 2 Aquaclear 20 (300lph each), one centered on each half of tank and then put crown plants every 15cm or so.

Also when pulling plants to replant never bare rape whole tank and pull all or most the plants. Do small areas probably 15cm square and alternate areas every 7 days until whole tank is done.

Also a warning about using crown plants. If they melt or have emergent growth there will be almost no gas transport between leaves and root system and limited oxygen production at roots because of that. 

Soil does produce co2 that roots can use for this but in a brand new soil bed that’s freshly flooded co2 production also stalls, the aerobic bacteria/fungi responsible for decomposition/co2 production also have to transition to submerged life. A bag of terrestrial soil comes to you in a high aerobic state, once you flood tank that bacteria is no longer in a high oxygen environment, there is a die off of aerobic microbes in soil. That’s one of reasons why a freshly set up soil tank is so unstable at 1st and requires way more water changes and oversight.


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## Sappire (Aug 8, 2019)

DaveKS said:


> I myself would rather set it up correctly at the beginning. You referred to 2cm average thickness in your original post. The pic you posted, if this is a 50gal tank, seems to support that thickness. I’m seeing soil bed pulled away from front glass for aesthetics then 2cm+- for sand bed on average.
> 
> If you add water circulation so that there is water pushed at sand bed to force micro-currents into soil bed and also install long establishing crown type plants like crypts and swords that make a oxygenating network of roots that you very rarely disturb it could sustain itself.
> 
> ...


It's been a long time since I read Diana's book, and so far from what I had read as well as getting her opinion on my tank, the sand didn't seem to be an issue, so it crossed my mind. 

I have filters already, can I just use those? 

As I'm writing this I have dipped my hand in to check the sand depth, and in most areas it's actually only about .5cm to 1.5cm max. I don't know if you have read the other comments on this post, but some other people have used other sand that should have suffocated their tank by now, and are doing fine. Are you sure things seem as bad as you are saying?


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

I’m just telling you what my experiences have been. I myself at one time didn’t think her recommended grain size would make that big a difference, but it does. 

You asked for advice, I gave it. Simple truth is I myself personally wouldn’t use that size sand in anything other than just putting a 1cm max layer on bare bottom glass. 

I’m not that educated, anything I’ve learned has come from hard knock school of total fail and being corrected by my friend who is biologist/freshwater ecologist/aquaculturist with multiple degrees. Walstad’s book totally snowed me also when I 1st read it. Then he explained that she’s instructing how to set up a littoral facies in a aquarium. In particular the submerged upper edge in this diagram, as you go deeper in this picture the more anoxic substrate becomes.










Also explained why pore size and circulation in substrate is so important in setting up proper oxic and anoxic layers. There is a fine line between a beneficial mildly anaerobic layer and a stinking/putrid anoxic layer that rots plants from root, engulfs your tank with algae/Cyanobacteria usually only found in profundal zones of aquatic ecosystems and even at times releases a built up methane/sulfide bubble layer into tank that can if severe enough wipe out every fish, snail, shrimp in your tank. I’d prefer to know that my tank isn’t ever going to go that place if all I simply have to do is make sure my sand is proper size.

Dennis Wong’s section also touches on pore spacing on his website. To me this section and following one on layers and microbial action should be required reading for anyone setting up a aquarium, not just planted aquarium.

https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/defining-good-substrate.html

Most people who set up a soil tank would also be months ahead in reaching a viable/stabile system if they would pre-leach soil of excess humic/organic compounds and mineralize soil for a couple weeks before placing in aquarium.


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

I had to reduce my substrate (both soil and cap), in four tanks because I improvised from the book and went too deep with everything. It was way more difficult than just being very meticulous in starting up.


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