# Mineralized Top Soil Substrate Kits *Price range on page 3*



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I think it's an awesome idea, and you may be beating GLA to the punch...

How much will shipping cost for the materials? I'd look into that, first. If shipping will be only $5 priority no matter what size tank, I'd think $15 - $50 (shipped) for packages ranging from supplies fora 5gal to a 125gal tank makes sense to me.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

I think that shipping can be done reasonably in a large flat rate box.. I will look into it.

the raw materials will cost me about 60.00 shipped if I am right. the top soil is 1.00 per 40lb bag.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

The raw materials for how many pounds worth of mineralized soil?


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Wait, are you talking about kits for people to make their own soil, or are you talking about making it and shipping the soil already made?


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

making the soil ready to go.. mineralizing it myself.. so you open the box and put it into the tank. Just add water :biggrin: I will portion out the dolomite, potash, and clay according to size of the tank and bag them separately .. I will even print out instructions on how to do it and send them with.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

oOOOoo I think the word "kit" threw me off...

I think you need to figure out your price per pound and then how much profit margin you think is reasonable. Personally, I'd try and find the balance between making it worth your while to make, yet try and keep it cheaper than the $1.50 per pound (shipped) average of most other commercial substrates (Eco, Flourite, etc).


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

My opinion is that it has to be substantially cheaper than ADA Aquasoil or most people will buy the Aquasoil. The whole point of mineralized top soil is to be a cheap DIY alternative to Aquasoil and some other substrates. As soon as you have to buy it, the advantages start to diminish. And, as I understand it, you need to cap the mineralized soil with something like SMS, pool filter sand, etc. So, you can't just add this to the tank then add the water.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

Hoppy said:


> My opinion is that it has to be substantially cheaper than ADA Aquasoil or most people will buy the Aquasoil. The whole point of mineralized top soil is to be a cheap DIY alternative to Aquasoil and some other substrates. As soon as you have to buy it, the advantages start to diminish.


the amount of aquasoil needed would be 148.49 including 36.00 for ups ground shipping for a 75 gallon tank. this is only a underlayment for nutrients so you don't have to dose the tank anymore and have awesome results. I think that most people that want to do this already understand that they have to cap it off. The majority of the hobbiest that want to do this.. already know that. the just add water was a joke:hihi:


The amount of people here wanting to do this and having a hard time with finding the right soil and other supplies might find it easier to just buy a kit instead of the hassle of doing it themselves. Do you have to still dose ferts when using ADA? you don't have to do that with this option. so the daily regiment isn't needed here.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

Just looked up the shipping. I can do large flat rate boxes at 12.95 up to 70 lbs. If I had to I could send 2 boxes to get it all there for about 25.00. smaller tanks would only need 1 box.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I totally would have gone with mineralized soil for my 90gal if I'd known about it in time. 

Hoppy- I forget the price it would have been, but shipping AquaSoil to the East Coast was _*incredibly*_ expensive. Shipping for just 2 9L bags was $30... I don't think it would be difficult for Ken to beat the price of AquaSoil. Especially for ppl who live far from CA and TX.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

I am also making up tons of the mineralized soil.. so I will have it in bulk. I am also going to make up a template so I know exactly how much soil is needed for each size tank. I will package it up accordingly.


----------



## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Torpedobarb said:


> the amount of aquasoil needed would be 148.49 including 36.00 for ups ground shipping for a 75 gallon tank. this is only a underlayment for nutrients so you don't have to dose the tank anymore and have awesome results. I think that most people that want to do this already understand that they have to cap it off. The majority of the hobbiest that want to do this.. already know that. the just add water was a joke:hihi:
> 
> 
> The amount of people here wanting to do this and having a hard time with finding the right soil and other supplies might find it easier to just buy a kit instead of the hassle of doing it themselves. Do you have to still dose ferts when using ADA? you don't have to do that with this option. so the daily regiment isn't needed here.


Awesome idea!! 

You could always make the capping media an option and charge for that if you find one that works best. For some, this will take the guess work out of what to use. For instance, if you try Soil Master Select or Schultz Aquatic Soil as a cap and find that it works well for the mineralized topsoil, you could include it as an option and charge for it. Since many people may have difficulty getting SMS or even Schultz Aquatic Soil(especially in the winter months) and may want to use it as a cap, they may be willing to pay extra.


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Another cap material would be black ColorQuartz sand by 3M, which is sold in fairly large bags because it is a building material. It might be possible to buy large quantities for peanuts per pound.

I'm not trying to say this is a bad idea. My only point was to evaluate the asking price vs the commercial alternatives, and make sure it is a real bargain, which it sounds like it would be.

I don't think SMS in the charcoal color is available anymore, but the same material is sold in plastic buckets by http://www.aquariumplants.com/product_p/ss.htm.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

Hoppy said:


> Another cap material would be black ColorQuartz sand by 3M, which is sold in fairly large bags because it is a building material. It might be possible to buy large quantities for peanuts per pound.
> 
> I'm not trying to say this is a bad idea. My only point was to evaluate the asking price vs the commercial alternatives, and make sure it is a real bargain, which it sounds like it would be.
> 
> I don't think SMS in the charcoal color is available anymore, but the same material is sold in plastic buckets by http://www.aquariumplants.com/product_p/ss.htm.


I don't think I would want to get into the cap part of it. I think that if I were to ask 40.00 plus shipping would be fair for say a 75 gallon tank. shipping would be according to how much is needed for your size tank. I am not trying to turn a profit here.. I think that mineralized topsoil substrate is the way to go.. especially since you don't have to dose the tank. Makes it alot easier when you go on vacation. you don't have to have anyone come over and take care of the tank!


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If it turns out the topsoil I have now doesn't work out I might just be your first customer since I can't seem to find anything else locally...


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> If it turns out the topsoil I have now doesn't work out I might just be your first customer since I can't seem to find anything else locally...


no problem.. I will take care of you.. you know that!


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Torpedobarb said:


> I don't think I would want to get into the cap part of it. I think that if I were to ask 40.00 plus shipping would be fair for say a 75 gallon tank. shipping would be according to how much is needed for your size tank. I am not trying to turn a profit here.. I think that mineralized topsoil substrate is the way to go.. especially since you don't have to dose the tank. Makes it alot easier when you go on vacation. you don't have to have anyone come over and take care of the tank!


Whether or not you have to dose the tank shouldn't enter into this. It is helpful to dose fertilizers in any tank that has enough light and CO2 for the plants to grow fast. The nutrients in the substrate help a great deal in preventing any shortage of nitrates especially. But, all plants can use water column nutrients and all will use them if they are available. Plants just seem to do best when they have both substrate and water column nutrients.

Even ADA Aquasoil users have to dose some water column fertilizers, if they follow ADA recommendations.


----------



## joejoe123 (Aug 22, 2006)

I have a 20h tank and Id love to be you 2nd customer please. Id love to try this option for a substate but im just to lazy to make it plus I dont have the time.

Joey


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

Hoppy... this is exactly why I wanted to switch to it. The plants may use the additional nutrients.. but from what I have understood from anyone else who has done this.. they don't NEED them. I look at all the pics of AaronT's tanks and looking4roselines tank and they do not dose anything... their tanks look amazing.


Joe.. I will put you in as #2


----------



## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

This is an excellent idea. I was waiting for someone to jump on this. Good luck with it.


----------



## ingg (Jan 18, 2007)

> It is helpful to dose fertilizers in any tank that has enough light and CO2 for the plants to grow fast.


Be very, very, very careful with this and mineralized soil. I won't say it can't work, but I'll say it is very difficult to make it work.

It is awfully easy to create algae explosions dosing a mineralized tank, and awfully hard to actually get anything good out of it. This is the feedback I got from multiple folks running the system in my club, some of whom have been running it over a decade. It is also my experience, as I tried it a bit anyhow. 

My 180g has been running almost a year. I dose traces of potassium - and I mean traces, .2 ppm weekly - and that is it.


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

ingg said:


> Be very, very, very careful with this and mineralized soil. I won't say it can't work, but I'll say it is very difficult to make it work.
> 
> It is awfully easy to create algae explosions dosing a mineralized tank, and awfully hard to actually get anything good out of it. This is the feedback I got from multiple folks running the system in my club, some of whom have been running it over a decade. It is also my experience, as I tried it a bit anyhow.
> 
> My 180g has been running almost a year. I dose traces of potassium - and I mean traces, .2 ppm weekly - and that is it.


I just spent 1.5 hours reading the thread on mineralized top soil. I'm ready to concede that it is a method for doing without any fertilizing at all. I currently use almost the same substrate, using river silt instead of regular top soil, but I also fertilize per EI. I have had mixed results, as far as algae goes. I'm about ready to set up a ten gallon tank again, so I will try this, with no fertilizing at all, perhaps just Excel for carbon, and see how it goes algae-wise. I already agree that a rich subsoil underlayer with inert top layer can give fantastic plant growth, because I had that in spades. But, going "cold turkey" on abstaining from fertilizing will be a new experience.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

I will make sure that their are disclaimers that cannot hold myself of the forum responsible for any issues that come from this..

Algae blooms can happen.. I found that sifting the mineralized soil multiple times to get rid of any left over materials helps considerably. I sifted mine through a doubled up screen about 4 times.. so there was nothing in there except the soil. I will do this prior to shipping it out. I have to work out the details still.. but I will protect myself and the forum by making sure planted tankers know the potential problems that can occur.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Hoppy, have you read through ingg's journal over on APC? IMHO that's a pretty worthwhile read, too. :thumbsup:


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

lauraleellbp said:


> Hoppy, have you read through ingg's journal over on APC? IMHO that's a pretty worthwhile read, too. :thumbsup:


No, I haven't read that. Do you have a link so I can find it?


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Took me a while to find it, since they consolidated the Large Tank forum a while back... http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/large-aquariums-ponds/48160-180g-start.html

Ingg are you journaling this tank anywhere else? You haven't updated it since June! LOL 

(Am I hijacking your thread, Ken? :redface


----------



## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

I sell packages of the clay, dolomite and potash to my club members for $5.00, the package is good for a 30 gallon tank. I let them mineralize their own soil.


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

lauraleellbp said:


> Took me a while to find it, since they consolidated the Large Tank forum a while back... http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/large-aquariums-ponds/48160-180g-start.html
> 
> Ingg are you journaling this tank anywhere else? You haven't updated it since June! LOL
> 
> (Am I hijacking your thread, Ken? :redface


Very interesting journal, and I am still a bit confused, but a lot less than I was. I would say the mineralized substrate is good with high as well as low light, since I consider that Ingg has high light on that big tank, using T5HO lights and almost 2 watts per gallon. He also has pressurized CO2 and good water circulation, which I think are also essential for a high light aquarium. So, I'm left believing that the substrate is providing almost all of the needed nutrients, other than carbon. Good news!


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

No hijacking! the other thread was basically to get input on how much would be a fair price for the kits for different size tanks! but oh well.. I will have to come up with prices that make it worth while to me. not to make a ton off of it.. just to cover my time basically. I am looking forward to other people getting this going!


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Look at it this way, we're "advertizing" your intent! LOL


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

I currently have 120lbs of the soil in its first drying stage.. so I think by the end of next week the kits will be ready to go.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

I am on my second washing cycle now.. getting there!


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I'm doing my airing out of the topsoil I am mineralizing by laying it on a plastic leaf bag on my deck. I worry about all of the seeds blowing by and settling on it, or the birds trying to fertilize it for me. How do you do such a big mass of soil and not have that kind of concerns? I hate to even mention it, but do you have a cat or dog? (Sorry, I don't want to ruin your day.):confused1:

I should also add, that after doing this once or twice I can't imagine anyone thinking your price is too much to pay. It's kinda fun for awhile, but....


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I've got the same worries, Hoppy. I've ended up having to dry mine on the back porch since it's fenced in even though it's shadowed much of the day and the soil isn't drying very well. In the front yard I know the neighborhood cats would make it their new litter box :confused1:


----------



## DataLifePlus (Nov 4, 2008)

I've been dealing with basically non-stop rain here for the past several days that has prevented me from drying my soil. Total bummer.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

muwaaaa.. all the more reason to get it from me :hihi:


it is 25 deg here so there is no drying it outside.. it has to be done indoors.. which is messy as you know. Especially 120lbs of it! I have a empty bedroom in my basement that I have a large fan and a heater going to boost the temp. it took 3 days to dry.

when I did mine this past summer.. it dried on a tarp in one day in direct sunlight.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

Hoppy said:


> I'm doing my airing out of the topsoil I am mineralizing by laying it on a plastic leaf bag on my deck. I worry about all of the seeds blowing by and settling on it, or the birds trying to fertilize it for me. How do you do such a big mass of soil and not have that kind of concerns? I hate to even mention it, but do you have a cat or dog? (Sorry, I don't want to ruin your day.):confused1:
> 
> I should also add, that after doing this once or twice I can't imagine anyone thinking your price is too much to pay. It's kinda fun for awhile, but....


I agree with the price issue... it is first off hard for most to find the "correct" type of soil to begin. then finding the right kind of clay with no polymers, dolemite, and muriate of potash. 

hell.. if someone had that available when I did it.. I would have been all over it. I can tell you that I have had a hard time myself finding the exact materials I need.

the clay.. Locale... really local


----------



## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Out of curisity, what would be the price range? Like said before, it would have to be competitive. I don't know that i would pay a large premium over what it would cost me to do it myself, others might, depending on what else is available. I also have AS locally, that might not "typical" but i'm sure i'm not the only one who has a LFS who carries it.

I am saying this both to help you maybe figure out prices and i am actually very interested in doing this myself as i need more substrate and i plan to do this soon. If it's worth saving the time, i'd be very interested, if i go this route, which the more i read, the more i like it.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

if you have warmer temps and don't mind playing in the mud for about 2 weeks.. then go for it. finding the proper clay, dolomite, and muriate of potash is the harder part. You can find it.. but if you don't find someone who will sell you just what you need.. you will have to buy a bag of dolomite which the smallest I have seen is 25lbs when you only need a small baggie of it, same with the potash. the clay I think comes in 25lb bricks too.

all totaled up for me to about about 75.00+ shipped

so competitive wise.. aqua soil doesn't do the same thing as this.. you will still have to dose ferts. this you will never have to dose anything with the exception of phosphate after about 6mo to 1yr. very small doses.
I am not trying to compete with major substrate names or suppliers. I am just doing this for the people who don't want to mess with it because of the hassle of supplies and the mess it is doing it. so for those who want the results without the mess.. I think that my prices are extremely good. I know what a bag of dirt costs.. but my time is valuable too with 2 children and a hectic work schedule.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

edited


----------



## JDowns (Mar 6, 2008)

I'm sure I've posted this before. You can get all the additional materials very cheap if you look around. The materials are shipped powdered, so you are not paying for water weight.

http://www.marjonceramics.com/pages/products.html

Raw Materials for dolomite and potash.
Raw Clays for the clay of your choice.

All sold for less than $1.50 a pound per material. They will sell as little as 1 pound increments.


----------



## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Torpedobarb said:


> if you have warmer temps and don't mind playing in the mud for about 2 weeks.. then go for it. finding the proper clay, dolomite, and muriate of potash is the harder part. You can find it.. but if you don't find someone who will sell you just what you need.. you will have to buy a bag of dolomite which the smallest I have seen is 25lbs when you only need a small baggie of it, same with the potash. the clay I think comes in 25lb bricks too.


Oh, it's defineatly understandable man. I didn't know your prices until your last post, i was just saying what would be my personal things for consideration to hopefully help you better understand what some of your potential customers may expect.

I haven't priced things out so i don't know if i'll do it myself or go through you. I plan on doing in (if i do it) in late Dec. after i graduate college (finally lol)


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

I am not going to sell these kits since everyone can get it cheaper.. to the few people who asked already.. I will honor those.. after that.. sorry. it seems I am probably ripping off.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Torpedobarb said:


> I am not going to sell these kits since everyone can get it cheaper.. to the few people who asked already.. I will honor those.. after that.. sorry. it seems I am probably ripping off.


What are you talking about? I don't see anything in this thread suggesting you are overcharging? (And I think JDowns was just offering someplace you may be able to get your supplies cheaper).

If people want to make their own they can always get it cheaper- but if you're putting in your own time and effort you should definitely charge for that. I think your prices are more than fair; I spent easily $300-400 just for substrate for my 90gal!!! And that was for Flourite and Colorquartz mix, which doesn't have nearly the nutrient content of mineralized soil.

If you don't want to bother, that's one thing- but IMO your prices are very fair.


----------



## JDowns (Mar 6, 2008)

My intentions were so you could get the materials cheaper at a dry weight. lauraleellbp was correct. I apologize if that came out any different.

The time involved in the process is quite extensive and I think the prices you layed out are more than fair, if not on the cheap side.

The added benefit you also give is the learning curve/experience from already prepping the material once before. Also there are lots of people who don't have the time or room to do this.

Plus once you consider shipping your materials in it may not be cheaper at that resource. 

Sorry if that post came out any other way.


----------



## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

I am sorry that you are reconsidering selling the kits, Torpedobarb. For what its worth, I felt that your prices were more than fair considering all the effort and time you were putting into this. Lol, if I lived in the USA, I would have been one of your first customers, no questions asked.

The reality really sunk in when I decided to do this on my own. It proved a real PITA just getting all the materials together, and even then I still could not locate the right type of topsoil so have to risk using what I could get. Then the real shock: I soaked the top soil about 1/2 a 10 gallon aquarium, after a few rinses and removing and skimming all the crud, I was left with less than a 1/4 tank or even less of sediment. I am still not sure how this will further decrease as I still have to dry, soak and sift. But it already looks like I will have to go through a ton of topsoil, just to get a decent amount of required sediment to use. I may just abandon this as it seems way more trouble than it's worth. I have a ton of alternative substrates laying aroundool filter sand, Tahitian Moon Sand, Soil Master Select, Eco-Complete, Fluorite Black Sand, ADA AS original and II, and Red Sea Flora substrate that I may just use one of these instead and go low tech. So far, this experience reaffirms at least in my mind how tedious this all process can be and further reaffirms that your prices are not unreasonable for what you are likely having to endure.


----------



## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Hi Torpedobarb

There are several folks on this forum and other forums that have started their businesses with what was in demand on these sites. They carved themselves a little nitch, so to speak. Here are some examples:
- plants
- CO2 supplies
- dry fertilizers
- 4 dKH solutions
- Manzanita driftwood
- aquascaping supplies, rocks, etc. 
- etc.

I've been helping people get Victor dual stage regulators and I don't receive any money at all and I don't want any. I just tell folks about them and where they are on sale. I do this because I really like these dual stage regulators and I want to help people in our hobby. I even tried doing a group buy on Aquaflora bulbs, but I couldn't pull it off.

I don't see why a substrate supplier wouldn't be welcomed.

Left C


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I'm shocked! This was a great idea, even though it did get some critical comments. It is good to get people thinking about this, and expressing their reservations. But, I think most of us, after thinking about this, realized that the work involved in actually making this stuff is far more than it originally sounds like. I don't think the prices you listed are excessive.

The reason I wouldn't be likely to buy your mineralized topsoil is primarily that I still enjoy the DIY process too much, and I'm a skinflint when it comes to spending on my hobby. But, my all to usual practice is to struggle to make something, spending some money in the process, then finally realizing that I am spinning my wheels without any real possibility of achieving what I want, so I then buy what I need. People like me would end up being a customer for this substrate.

You wouldn't become rich doing this, just as others who have started mini-businesses on planted tank stuff haven't become wealthy as a result. But, it is a way to earn some money to justify spending what you do for your own tanks, and it is really appreciated by the rest of us. I hope you reconsider. If not, I hope someone else steps up to try this.


----------



## macclellan (Dec 22, 2006)

Torpedobarb said:


> Here is what I have come up with.. and I feel it is a fair price.
> 
> 55-90 gallon tanks 40.00 plus shipping
> 45 gallon tanks 37.00 plus shipping
> ...


I don't understand the logic behind these prices. A 90g is 4-6 times the amount of soil compared to a 10g, yet only 25% more expensive. There is no parity there - either you are selling soil for a 90g way too cheaply, or the 10g quantity way to expensively. 

Just a suggestion: Use normal and large flat-rate boxes (something like $9.80 and $12 respectively), then see how many of what sized boxes worth of soil fills up what sized tanks and then provide quantity recommendations in your FS thread. Charge two prices, one per each sized box, shipping included. This would make everything much simpler for everyone, most importantly for you.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

I took what was said wrong.. I have had multiple pm's saying that they can get the supplies much cheaper than what I will be charging. getting the pm's that the dirt hardly costs anything.. I am basically getting tired of having to explain that it isn't the cost of the supplies.. it is the time put into it so that they won't have to go searching for it.

I will continue to do what I had originally planned. I will have to work on a pricing plan more.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

LOL I'd either ignore those PMs or tell them "great- go do it! :thumbsup:"


----------



## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Well, I am down for a 20 gallon. Firm up your prices and get an SnS thread going my friend.


----------



## lovingHDTV (Oct 15, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> LOL I'd either ignore those PMs or tell them "great- go do it! :thumbsup:"


+1

dave


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

Thanks everyone.. I am going to get a SnS thread going when I get everything together and have the prices down right. if I post there now.. it will fill up with ?'s instead of orders. I also want to have the kits ready when I do it so that way I can ship out immediately.


----------



## cah925 (May 18, 2007)

At the very least, this could be very helpful for everyone in the winter. I really want another batch to do my 75 gal, but I don't have access to a basement or garage to dry the soil.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

My first batch just took 5 days to dry out on my back porch. :icon_eek: And I think I'm in the same boat as Homer with too many sticks and such and barely any soil at all in there...


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

if you thin out the soil well enough.. it should dry in about a day with direct sunlight


----------



## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Torpedobarb said:


> Thanks everyone.. I am going to get a SnS thread going when I get everything together and have the prices down right. if I post there now.. it will fill up with ?'s instead of orders. I also want to have the kits ready when I do it so that way I can ship out immediately.


This sounds like a very good plan.


----------



## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Left C said:


> This sounds like a very good plan.


Agreed.

The thread can be a closed thread only listing prices and amount. People can shoot you a PM if interested. Serious Inquiries only. For those that PM you only to debate your prices or question your motives or intentions, just add them to the ignore list(in your private message options) for persons you will accept Private Messages from and further private messages to you from them will be rejected.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

I am currently on my second drying phase... 

got home to a surprise though.. my wife said that she found my 2 yr old daughter playing in the container with the mud mix. :hihi: the container is a 30 gallon tupperware container.. she was sitting in it fleece zipped pj's and all.. mud in her hair fingernails etc..

we had to move it to the garage for the water process.. and load it onto a tarp and take it down into the bedroom where I am drying it.. I have a heater and large fan in there to get it done.. has been taking almost 24hrs for it to dry.


----------



## cah925 (May 18, 2007)

ROFL, forget about squirrels and cats-you need to watch out for the kids! ha ha



lauraleellbp said:


> My first batch just took 5 days to dry out on my back porch. :icon_eek: And I think I'm in the same boat as Homer with too many sticks and such and barely any soil at all in there...


My first batch also had lots of "stuff" in it. I started sifting after each dry cycle and always found "stuff" after each one. I would estimate that I lost approx 20% of the original weight.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

LOL Please tell me she got the camera!!


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

she did.. I will have to get them posted!


if you take the soil and skim the water after you have filled the container.. you can get alot of the crap off that way.. another thing that helps alot too.. when you go to dump out the water.. do it extremely slow. that way you get the water and not the soil. I also take the dried soil and stomp on it with a pair of old shoes.. it step on it and grind it into the tarp to break up all of the clumps.. usually the stuff that won't break down is the rocks and pieces of wood.


----------



## ingg (Jan 18, 2007)

Let it take its time drying, torpedo, that is when the bacterial work is being done.


----------



## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I have been thinking about doing this more strongly every day. I was wondering, would you be willing to sell everything but the top soil in a "kit" with instructions? Obviously others would have to be interested in this too but then people like me who are willing to do this themselves and live somewhere that can do it in the winter, in the summer most all of us can, then you can adjust the price accordingly? I will totally admit i'm trying to save a buck but it may also help you time wise, and bring shipping costs down. 

For me, it would be DIY but sourcing the clay locally would take me time, this would solve that. I may be the only one who would want to buy it like that, in that case, it wouldn't be worth it to you, presumably, but just i thought i had. If not, PM me when you think you could possibly be done. It's really only slightly more than i'd pay for the substrate i'd use that seems inferior anyway, depending on shipping.


----------



## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

I soaked and rinsed half a 10 gallon aquarium full with the topsoil that I had and ended up with a less than a 1/4 tankful of sediment. I am in the process of the first drying but it is still is pretty darned hard and clumpy. I will be sifting once it is dry, but my guess is that once it is fully dry it will be pretty hard to sift as the clumps are getting harder and forcing it through a strainer will be hell on Earth. For those who have successfully done this, is this normal, or is it due to the Toposoil being too worthless for this???


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Homer_Simpson said:


> I soaked and rinsed half a 10 gallon aquarium full with the topsoil that I had and ended up with a less than a 1/4 tankful of sediment. I am in the process of the first drying but it is still is pretty darned hard and clumpy. I will be sifting once it is dry, but my guess is that once it is fully dry it will be pretty hard to sift as the clumps are getting harder and forcing it through a strainer will be hell on Earth. For those who have successfully done this, is this normal, or is it due to the Toposoil being too worthless for this???


sounds like you have clay in your top soil. it'll be ok. Just smash it up with a mallet.


----------



## tendril (May 27, 2004)

These kits would be very useful for those of us who live in apartments and don't have extensive outdoor space for drying mass quantities of dirt! Torpedobarb, have you considered offering shipping to Canada?


----------



## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

tendril said:


> These kits would be very useful for those of us who live in apartments and don't have extensive outdoor space for drying mass quantities of dirt! Torpedobarb, have you considered offering shipping to Canada?


Given that it is dirt, customs may seize it. They are pretty strict about things like this being transported over the border even if there is no rhyme or reason. They like to throw caution to the winds and not take any risks for something that they feel could be carrying anything invasive. Yeah, they are pretty stupid about these types of things. 

I believe you may need to obtain a special permit and Phytosanitary Certificate of Inspection otherwise risk confiscation. This could make it even more costly and troublesome for Torpedobarb.

Mistergreen, thanks for the clarification. If it is clay, that would indeed be great, but I am thinking that it could even be cow manure, which may need not be so great. I was able to locate a local greenhouse that has prebagged soil that they tell me is free of manure and fertilizers, I may switch over to that. I am not sure if I want to take any more risks with this topsoil The last time I used it to set up a Natural Planted Tank, my Betta got fin and tail rot and I had fish and shrimp deaths of biblical proporitons, not to mention the worst plant growth I had ever seen for any tank I have set up.


----------



## macclellan (Dec 22, 2006)

Homer_Simpson said:


> They like to throw caution to the winds and not take any risks for something that they feel could be carrying anything invasive.


Sorry, but to "throw caution to the wind" means abandoning caution and _taking a risk_, i.e., exactly the opposite of how you used it.

Sincerely,
The Idiom Police




Homer_Simpson said:


> I am thinking that it could even be cow manure, which may need not be so great.


Cow manure is quite easy to break up. I bet it is mostly clay too. It should be good. :thumbsup:


----------



## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

macclellan said:


> Sorry, but to "throw caution to the wind" means abandoning caution and _taking a risk_, i.e., exactly the opposite of how you used it.
> 
> Sincerely,
> The Idiom Police
> ...


I stand corrected on both counts. Thanks


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

ingg said:


> Let it take its time drying, torpedo, that is when the bacterial work is being done.


I do let it take its time.. I just try to make is go faster than a week. I have it in a bedroom with a fan going and a small heater.. so it is about 85 degrees in there.. it usually takes 1-2 days.. but I let it go until I know it is dry.. now the batch I put in there yesterday is already dry today. I have it spread out insanely thin.. less than a 1/4" thick for drying. I have broken up the huge batch into 4 containers so that they are in rotation.. I even labeled the containers to know where they are at in it.

Ken


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

tendril said:


> These kits would be very useful for those of us who live in apartments and don't have extensive outdoor space for drying mass quantities of dirt! Torpedobarb, have you considered offering shipping to Canada?


I might consider it.. I have had nothing but bad luck with sending items to canada.. but I will consider it roud:


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

talontsiawd said:


> I have been thinking about doing this more strongly every day. I was wondering, would you be willing to sell everything but the top soil in a "kit" with instructions? Obviously others would have to be interested in this too but then people like me who are willing to do this themselves and live somewhere that can do it in the winter, in the summer most all of us can, then you can adjust the price accordingly? I will totally admit i'm trying to save a buck but it may also help you time wise, and bring shipping costs down.
> 
> For me, it would be DIY but sourcing the clay locally would take me time, this would solve that. I may be the only one who would want to buy it like that, in that case, it wouldn't be worth it to you, presumably, but just i thought i had. If not, PM me when you think you could possibly be done. It's really only slightly more than i'd pay for the substrate i'd use that seems inferior anyway, depending on shipping.


sure.. I would probably do that.. I am contemplating on making it 2 separate type of kits.. one with the soil and just the supplies with instructions. so yes.. I will get a sns thread going once I have everything down solid.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

here is the only pic there was of my daughter playing in the mud.. she is looking the way she does because she knew she was caught! little butthead. it was much worse than that by the time my wife got her out.. the mud in there is about 5" deep.. so she was really filthy! :hihi:


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Awesome!

My mom caught me playing in an old chimney flue once when I was a kid. She said she threw away all my clothes and had to drain and refill the tub 3x... LOL


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Why is it only little kids can have that much fun? But, now that I think of it, I coulda done that just last week if I had thought of it.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

LOL... it was fun for her.. giant mess for us!


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

hah, that picture really made me L O L.


hey, she just wanted to be like her dad and play with mud.


----------



## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Hey Torpedobarb it sounds like you're busy!

For the "dirt" I would also suggest selling it by the flat rate box because it'll be much much easier for you. You could say this box fills up about X and for this size tank you want X many or so.

As for all the idiots who will pm you? Don't bother reading their PMs, I've had the same issues in the past on aquabid and whatnot and that is the main reason I don't bother with that anymore. 

Good luck, I doubt you'll need it!
-Andrew


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

A Hill said:


> Hey Torpedobarb it sounds like you're busy!
> 
> For the "dirt" I would also suggest selling it by the flat rate box because it'll be much much easier for you. You could say this box fills up about X and for this size tank you want X many or so.
> 
> ...


that is a good idea.. I might have to try that! roud:


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

I am working on the soil still.. it is just really cold outside and I am doing the rinsing part in my garage so I don't have the muddy child incident again. I didn't stop working on it.

Ken


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I'm doing a batch in the garage too. It takes about 2 weeks to dry.. Stirring it once in a while helps.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

I am drying mine inside.. just doing the washing part outdoors.


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I fill it with water, stir, let it sit for a day or 2 and then dump out the water. That's the extent of my washing. I'm on my second wash.

Are you adding the clay at this point?
I've been reading Diana Walstad's book and the soil has plenty of micros + iron and bacteria make biofilm in the soil that binds it together.. I wonder about the clay... I'll add the clay anyway since I have some from the backyard.


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

As I understand the Walstad method, she wants organic compounds in the topsoil layer. But, mineralizing changes those to inorganic compounds. Two different methods for setting up a substrate.


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I'm not completely sold on this process producing 100% mineralized substrate. If so, you would be producing something like limestone or sand stone..

I think there are still organics in this process also, just not in concentrations like raw soil. I guess we can test that by just testing the water from the mineralized soil for NH3/NO3. There should still be some.

But either way, it doesn't change that soil has plenty of micros, little macro and plenty of bacteria to bind the soil.


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I'm still trying to understand how the Walstad method and this are different, why they are, and what that affects.

Just as an anecdote: I have set up 2 tanks with river silt as a soil layer. The first time I soaked the silt for a week, then just used it. The tank smelled like a swamp for a few days, so obviously there were still unmineralized organics in it. The next time I barely soaked it first before using it. Again, a swampy smell. This time I soaked it 3 times for two days each time, and each time I dried it afterwards. The third time it had no smell at all, so I figured it was ready and used it - no swampy smell at all.

My conclusion was that this time I had done the mineralizing well, so there were no ammonia or other organic compounds left. Incidentally, it isn't much different from sandstone after the process, just loosely caked together, but the texture is very similar to fine sandstone.


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

hmm. I'll read up on the chemical change when organics are dried.

Yeah, I've noticed the swampy smell of river silt in the river not just in aquariums. The conditions are right for anaerobic bacteria to produce H2S I suppose. It might be as simple as, with this process, it removes sulfur from the substrate but that's oversimplifying. Or it just removes the materials the anaerobics need to feed on.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

as for adding the clay.. you don't want to do that now.. you don't want to wash any of it away. you add it just before putting it into the tank when making *the cake batter*


----------



## tominator (Dec 3, 2008)

What kind of clay do you use? It seems to me that the best, if you wanted Iron, would be Terra Cotta, the red clay full of Iron Oxide. I pulled this from the best scholarly rivewed, totally academic source, Wikipedia.

The reddish color [of Terra Cotta] is due to iron oxide in the source clay. Clays with low iron content can result in paler colors on firing, ranging from white to yellow.

Unless you are only using the clay as a bonding agent and not as a source of neutrients.


----------



## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

You want a terra cotta type clay that is high in iron and low in aluminum and silicates. I always emulsify the clay and mix in more traces to make sure it is carrying the micros we want.


----------



## MCHRKiller (Jul 25, 2008)

As Im just recently making the change to having a planted tank, once I get my moving done Id love to try this for my 2.5G tank Im going to make into a shrimp tank. Obviously it wouldnt be worth buying and doing all this stuff for a tank that small...how much would you charge for enough for a standard 2.5G tank?


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

lol.. it wouldn't be much.. probably 10.00 with the supplies + shipping.


----------



## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

how does it take to make a batch? it seems like this thread has been going for ever... i might try this. my 2 yr old would love to help, lol.


----------



## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

oldpunk78 said:


> how does it take to make a batch? it seems like this thread has been going for ever... i might try this. my 2 yr old would love to help, lol.


Lol, probably depends on how quickly the soil dries after each soak. If you have access to a room where you can aim a plug in heater at it things would go faster, I have it in a room that is fairly warm and it the tiny amount of very thinly laid out soil that I have still takes 4 days to dry. This stupid soil seems to hold moisture longer than most soil that I have seen. Since I am likely not using the right type of soil, my plan was to go over the 3-4 soak and dry cycles. Unless, I get and aim a heater at the soil with each drying, at the pace I am going, 2 days soak and 5 days drying, it looks like 3 months, possibly six as I may have to do another batch to get enough for a 10 gallon.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

oldpunk78 said:


> how does it take to make a batch? it seems like this thread has been going for ever... i might try this. my 2 yr old would love to help, lol.


probably wouldn't take you that long considering you are in california. I live where it is 20 deg at night so I have to do it indoors. I only started mineralizing the soil about 3 weeks ago or so. it takes longer inside.


----------



## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

it's been 30 degrees here in the morning, 60's in the afternoon. but very dry. it might even snow next week. California, lol.


----------



## MCHRKiller (Jul 25, 2008)

Torpedobarb said:


> lol.. it wouldn't be much.. probably 10.00 with the supplies + shipping.


Awesome, mark me down for some then if you wouldnt mind


----------



## Grundy (Dec 11, 2008)

I would like some for either a 2.5 gal or a 5.5 that I am setting up. Thanks.


----------



## Smitty83 (Sep 19, 2008)

Hey torpedobarb,So im on my 2 dry cycle i had a snag i had my soil in a rubbermaid tub washing and the breaker trip because of the heater and i didn't check it till the morning and it was frozen solid so i had to wait for it thawed and then had it drying and again it froze stupid breaker why i don't know?? all i have pluged in it is the heater i can run our air hockey table a tv and the heater and some tools and no problem but if i just have the heater pluged in for more then 3 hours it trips?? hopefully i can have this done by mid January​


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

you should check and see what size breaker it is.. sometimes it is too low for having a heater.. depending on how old the house is. there are alot of factors to consider also.. like the gauge of the wire to the outlet. are you positive that there is nothing else on that circuit? you can dry it indoors with just a fan. it just takes longer..



As for anyone who is going to want the kits.. I am going to be making a thread on the SNS forum.


----------



## Tex Gal (Mar 28, 2008)

I think this is a great thing you're doing for everyone. If I were gonna use anything besides ADA Aquasoil it would be this. ... and I'd buy some from you. This is great stuff!


----------



## DataLifePlus (Nov 4, 2008)

DataLifePlus said:


> I've been dealing with basically non-stop rain here for the past several days that has prevented me from drying my soil. Total bummer.


Man, and I thought the rain was bad back then!

As you probably haven't heard, Hawaii suffered some flooding last week. I had been delaying the drying process and had my substrate wrapped up in a tarp under the house. Well, last Thursday we got so much rain it caused a local lake to overflow and it flooded a river that runs near my house. My place was under almost 5 feet of water and we had to evacuate. Needless to say, the soil is gone, as well as my garage and everything in it, including our car. 









The view from my front door.









My backyard where the soil was stored... water line can be seen on the fence.

Sorry to get so off topic in here... I just saw that post I made weeks ago about the rain and thought I'd give an update.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

wow.. that sucks.. I hope you recover from this and all is well.


----------



## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

DataLifePlus said:


> My backyard where the soil was stored... water line can be seen on the fence.
> 
> Sorry to get so off topic in here... I just saw that post I made weeks ago about the rain and thought I'd give an update.


Wow! How terrible!

I'd think soil for your tank is fairly low on your priority list now. Your pics certainly put things into perspective. Good luck getting everything back in order!


----------



## will5 (Sep 30, 2005)

*Hi*

Wow what a great looking tank you have there. :thumbsup:


----------



## illumnae (Dec 27, 2007)

By any chance would you ship to Singapore, and how much would it cost overall? It's for a 48x24x24 inch tank


----------



## Old Salt (Aug 11, 2009)

just a suggestion, look into priority mail flat rate boxes for shipping. It should cut the cost of shipping down. You may only need one or two different sized boxes depending on final weight of the kits.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

I do use large priority mail flat rate boxes when I ship it out.

to ship it to singapore would be about 60.00 usd


----------



## khanzer22 (Jan 14, 2008)

I saw this thread and just wondering if you're still selling the mineralized soil... I have the luck finding the other ingredients (dolomite, clay and m potash) though none finding the right topsoil... Since it's already November here in the Northeast, most garden centers (even Home Depot and Lowe's) doesn't have or stop selling topsoils already... 

Can you hook me up??? 

UPDATE: MTS Shipment is coming on Wednesday (Thanks Ken!)... Can't wait to get start planting!


----------



## odie (Dec 29, 2009)

Sending a PM your way. I have a bunch of flourite laying around but I want my plants some ferts when I am out and about for a 1-2 weeks at a time. I am setting up a 125 long(6ft) and have 135 lbs of flourite. So would I add a dusting to the tank then the flourite?


----------



## oneduduboy (Feb 23, 2010)

how would i need for a 40g breeder tank. thanks


----------



## jargonchipmunk (Dec 8, 2008)

holy moly are you still selling this stuff?  I just went and picked up a 120 for an inwall project and I might be a repeat customer! I LOVED it in my 75


----------



## gene4christ (Oct 25, 2008)

*inquiring minds need to know*

OK I would like to know if the Mineralized Top Soil Substrate is still for sale also! I hope so I am going to set up a 75gal. and this seems like the way to go but I have know idea how to do it or what to even use for that matter LOL. Hey just where in Indiana are you I live in Newburgh just east of Evansville . 

Gene4Christ


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

lol... this thread is still going?


yes I still make the kits.. much easier coming up with the warmer weather. 


a real bitch to do in the house!


----------



## Nirad (Feb 21, 2010)

So what is the cost ???


----------



## yetti82 (Feb 22, 2009)

it would appear that this thread is over 8 months since it last saw life so I'm hoping that your still selling these kits . Right not I can't leave the heater on in the room where I have the soil mineralizing (on orders of the wife) so it's going to take like 4 to 5 days per dry cycle. Please please still make these lol, I need it for a smaller tank. A 14G BioCube.


----------



## Loop (Jan 8, 2011)

If you still make them, I might want some also. I've been thinking of changing my 10G and 29G to this, but wasn't sure if I felt like doing the work to make it and source the ingredients.


----------



## FriendsNotFood (Sep 21, 2010)

Not sure if you're still making these kits but I would love one for a 36 gallon! Please PM me  Thanks!


----------



## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

I live in DC and don't have the space or garage to dry the stuff efficiently - having a huge tarp in the apartment isn't going to fly with the roommate. I would love to buy some from you - I'm surprised this business hasn't taken off - Per a phone call to ADA it's going to cost $175 not including shipping to use aquasoil and powersand for my 57 gallon tank


----------



## Mcg177 (Apr 6, 2011)

pm me if you are still elling these as i would like one for a 29g biocube


----------

