# Anyone ever just outcompete BBA?



## Aquarist_Fist (Jul 22, 2008)

Serious question. I have been unsuccessful defeating BBA for good every time I have tried. However, the right conditions (i.e. relatively low light, good water movement, CO2) seem to slow BBA down enough for me to remove most of it and then just keep it in check infinitely. In my current tank, I don't even use pressurized CO2, though I do use 5-10ml Excel (on 58g) every other day. I clean the glass and equipment periodically and clip leaves that have BBA (most plants are not affected). I remove a bit of gravel here and there, and that's pretty much it. 90% of success for 10% of the stress compared to the more radical methods.

Edit: Oh, I know this is hardly a new approach. I just wonder when I read the frequent extremely frustrated, "[email protected]$^!& BBA - I am giving up!!" threads.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

I often wonder about the importance of the competition theory for BBA control as well. When we speak of competition it seems to be far more relevant to other forms of algae. It seems to me at least, that competition for organic nutrients are not as important in regards to BBA. From my limited experience, it seems competing for organic nutrients seems far less important in BBA control than CO2 stability. 

If I had to choose one thing to control BBA it would be CO2 stability, not the level. It seems to grow in low/med/high light or low/med/high CO2 conditions. The organic load does seem to play a part, but to a lesser degree. If the organic side is high, we tend to see other algae before BBA appears. The common denominator seems to always be fluctuation in CO2 levels whether from DIY CO2, frequent water changes, lighting changes, water circulation etc.

BBA seems to be the one algae that once established, hangs on furiously. So after correcting the initial problem it always seems to be there although to a far lesser degree.


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## Wannaberooted (Jun 24, 2012)

I have evidence in my low light tank that lower water flow equals more BBA. That is the only thing that has changed.

It is only growing on older leaves that are in the brightest spots. Maybe they are leaching nutrients and with less flow to move them away from the plant, the algae can latch on.

I changed one of my filter cartridges, but that filter is still underperforming. I'm going to scrub the tubes and make a closer inspection next water change.

I had an outbreak last October, but I added another HOB filter and it was absent until now.

This is all theory of course, I'll see what happens once I get the flow back to what it was before this outbreak.


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## wastedtime (Oct 27, 2011)

In my tank, BBA seemed to grow almost anywhere, I do not have a large scale outbreak, but i do see it in some places, 
It seems to grow in high flow and low flow areas, high light and low light. Organics dont seem to be a factor because my nitrates were always below 5. 

I was only able to attribute the growth to fluctuating CO2 levels, and more importantly delivery of co2 to all areas in the tank. Also it seems to only grow on the older more established leaves rather than new ones.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

CO2, CO2 and CO2.
Excel dosing should be more like 30 mls daily for a 58 Gallon tank.
Water changes: dose the excel, let it dribble on hardscape etc, not live plants. 
Let sit a few min, then refill etc.

Some use H2O2 and spot treat also.
Note, the BBA will always come back till you dial the CO2 in correctly.

Be careful, slow and observe plants, algae(new growth) and adjust the CO2 SLOWLY.

Once the CO2 is correct, then you can go in and kill the remaining BBA with excel, spot treatments, trimming etc.


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## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

So I need to actually kill/remove the existing BBA even after dialing the CO2? Or will the BBA just tap out on its own.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

plantbrain said:


> Once the CO2 is correct, then you can go in and kill the remaining BBA with excel, spot treatments, trimming etc.


Says it all IMO


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## chou (Feb 23, 2012)

+1 to co2. make sure your drop checker is green and have enough water flow. once i had these in check i don't have a problem with BBA


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Plants which grow verrrrry slowly are prime targets for BBA. Anubias leaves seem to grow to adult size, then just sit there watching other leaves grow. Those leaves that are just sitting there always get BBA in my tank, even with low light, 20-25 PAR, with daily 5-8 ml dosages of Excel. I cut those leaves off when they begin to offend me, but eventually other leaves get it too, still only those leaves that are not growing.

My anubias are anubias nana, about an inch high above the substrate, so they are definitely in very low light - they are also snuggled up against the Mattenfilter, at one end of the tank, where the light is even lower in intensity. I don't really get bothered by it since I can ignore it for a couple of weeks or more, then trim it off, and it's gone. With high light it grows very fast, making you do the trimming every day, and that is still not enough to slow it down.


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## Aquarist_Fist (Jul 22, 2008)

Thanks for the tips regarding the CO2, but again, this isn't about eradicating BBA once and for all. I get that CO2 is the key to the end of all algae problems, but if I hook up CO2 now, my plants will go bonkers. I have no desire to do any more pruning than I already have to. I am perfectly fine with the low amount of BBA I have now. That and a minimal dusting of green spot algae on one of the sides is the only algae I have.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Uhm. In a plant-only tank with co2 up to the kazoo, with every leaf swaying I still can grow BBA of epic sizes. The only long-term tank I had that never had any algae was a 4g Finnex with their 26w clip-on CFL light, no co2 and ferts when I remembered, with no visible water circulation. The only inhabitants were a motley assortment of snails. I used that tank for dumping random clippings in and it ended up being 150% 'planted'. The tank and the filter were not cleaned for over a year, no wc, some occasional top offs. Some algae wafers once in a while. I have an older thread on it somewhere here.

I had a pretty bad case of BBA in a 17g for several months. I finally raised the filter output to create substantial surface ripples. Green thread algae promptly took over in under a week. In under two weeks all BBA was dead (silverish grey and falling off). AlgaeFix took care if the thread algae. Since then I started regular maintenance and that tank is now hosting most of my rotalas with dwarf puffers. The tank has Hagen Glo 2 x 24" t5ho 16" above the substrate and co2.

via Droid DNA Tapatalk 2


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## snafuspyramid (May 27, 2010)

I have a 90 gallon tank with lowish light (twin 54 watt T5HO sitting immediately on the glass - cheap reflectors). No Co2. I had some problems with BBA when I first set it up - easy fixed by adding a few Siamensis. The SAEs moved to a new home a few years ago and I haven't seen any BBA since, or any other sort of algae for that matter (not even green spot any more, which is probably bad).

Mind you, the plants are grimly surviving, not thriving - mostly very tough stuff like Val, Anubias and Java Fern.

I dose a little potassium sulfate, Seachem Flourish (iron+traces) and Equilibrium (gH). I dose glut during my occasional spurts of enthusiasm for aquarium keeping. 

Now, however, I've gone out and bought myself some proper CO2 gear and blinding lights- so it's time to grow me some uncontrollable algae!


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

Aquarist_Fist said:


> Thanks for the tips regarding the CO2, but again, this isn't about eradicating BBA once and for all. I get that CO2 is the key to the end of all algae problems, but if I hook up CO2 now, my plants will go bonkers. I have no desire to do any more pruning than I already have to. I am perfectly fine with the low amount of BBA I have now. That and a minimal dusting of green spot algae on one of the sides is the only algae I have.


I think when we mention CO2 as an influencing factor most people think CO2 as a tank under the aquarium. That's pretty misleading. 

CO2 levels can change without injecting any at all. Water flow patterns can leave areas of varying CO2 levels within the tank as well as areas that fluctuate. Water changes are probably the biggest cause of fluctuating CO2 in the non injected tank.

Then when we see algae problems we raise or lower the lighting. This also changes the CO2 levels because the plant's uptake changes. We decrease a nutrient thinking it is a cause of algae. This limits the growth and CO2 uptake changing it yet again.

So basically, CO2 levels or fluctuations do not only apply to injected tanks. 

Out of curiosity, Aquarist_Fist, do you do frequent water changes? In a low tech tank that seems to be one of the main reasons for BBA problems.


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## Aquatic Delight (Mar 2, 2012)

sorry guys marking this so i can come back and read it after work


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

OVT said:


> Uhm. In a plant-only tank with co2 up to the kazoo, with every leaf swaying I still can grow BBA of epic sizes. The only long-term tank I had that never had any algae was a 4g Finnex with their 26w clip-on CFL light, no co2 and ferts when I remembered, with no visible water circulation. The only inhabitants were a motley assortment of snails. I used that tank for dumping random clippings in and it ended up being 150% 'planted'. The tank and the filter were not cleaned for over a year, no wc, some occasional top offs. Some algae wafers once in a while. I have an older thread on it somewhere here.
> 
> I had a pretty bad case of BBA in a 17g for several months. I finally raised the filter output to create substantial surface ripples. Green thread algae promptly took over in under a week. In under two weeks all BBA was dead (silverish grey and falling off). AlgaeFix took care if the thread algae. Since then I started regular maintenance and that tank is now hosting most of my rotalas with dwarf puffers. The tank has Hagen Glo 2 x 24" t5ho 16" above the substrate and co2.
> 
> via Droid DNA Tapatalk 2


So why don't I have BBA then and ONLY get it and only seem to cure other folk's BBA issue with CO2 then?

I've NEVER been able to induce BBA any other way, using insane light PAR, low light, nutrients from near to far. And I've tried.

Non CO2 tanks are inherently __(what?)___________with regards to CO2 concentration?

Stability is the key and simply good observations and respond to issues, no parameter will make up for poor care and poor observation.

Larding on CO2 alone is not enough. Often, most folks have other issues. Example, while cranking the CO2 up helps most, others it does not. Degassing rates might be too high for example.

Flow/current etc.

Perhaps having no current is okay, but if you have fish and want decent O2 levels........well.......


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

I would love to understand in more detail how (proper levels of) co2 affect BBA.

If we all try to induce BBA then all of us can be free of it forever.

If you need a volunteer to attempt to induce BBA in a reasonably well defined environment, I will gladly dedicate my time and resources for such endeavor.

via Droid DNA Tapatalk 2


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Is there a good theory about why CO2 reduces BBA problems? Or why healthy, fast growing plants reduce BBA problems? I'm not as young as I used to be, and my memory isn't as good as it was, but I can't recall any well founded theory about the relationship of BBA to CO2 to fast growing plants, etc. If we understood what was happening when fluctuating CO2 levels induce BBA or when fast growing plants inhibit BBA, it would make it a lot easier to think rationally about BBA -as opposed to simply flying into a murderous rage on seeing it


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Hoppy said:


> Is there a good theory about why CO2 reduces BBA problems? Or why healthy, fast growing plants reduce BBA problems? I'm not as young as I used to be, and my memory isn't as good as it was, but I can't recall any well founded theory about the relationship of BBA to CO2 to fast growing plants, etc. If we understood what was happening when fluctuating CO2 levels induce BBA or when fast growing plants inhibit BBA, it would make it a lot easier to think rationally about BBA -as opposed to simply flying into a murderous rage on seeing it


Much better stated.
+1


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

To understand how CO2 fluctuations can trigger BBA it's important to understand how CO2 is utilized by the plants. 

Light, photons actually, strike the leaf surface and throw off electrons which are used in a chemical reaction to produce sugar "food" for the plant. The reaction cannot occur without a sufficient number of CO2 molecules. Plants make an enzyme for CO2 transport called rubisco. This enzyme can take up to a week to produce requiring energy from the plant. When CO2 is plentiful the plant will reabsorb this enzyme for other tasks. The levels of robisco are based on the amount of CO2 in the water column.
　
The production of robisco is signaled by CO2 levels. When CO2 levels fluctuate it causes mayhem with enzyme production. This leaves the plant unable to efficiently utilize the CO2 available. This results in a weakened plant and does not compete well.

I believe BBA on the other hand is quite efficient at dealing with CO2 fluctuations. So while the plant is struggling BBA is busy setting up shop.

This could be one possible cause.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RuBisCO


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## Aquarist_Fist (Jul 22, 2008)

Zorfox said:


> To understand how CO2 fluctuations can trigger BBA it's important to understand how CO2 is utilized by the plants.
> 
> Light, photons actually, strike the leaf surface and throw off electrons which are used in a chemical reaction to produce sugar "food" for the plant. The reaction cannot occur without a sufficient number of CO2 molecules. Plants make an enzyme for CO2 transport called rubisco. This enzyme can take up to a week to produce requiring energy from the plant. When CO2 is plentiful the plant will reabsorb this enzyme for other tasks. The levels of robisco are based on the amount of CO2 in the water column.
> 
> ...


Okay, but this doesn't explain how you can have BBA outbreaks in perfectly healthy tanks with thriving plants. Most plants show very quickly when they are struggling, and we have all seen BBA happily colonizing plants that didn't seem to be suffering. 

The fluctuation theory still makes a lot of sense to me. I have rarely seen massive outbreaks in tanks with no CO2 and good water movement and low fish density, and neither in stable tanks with good CO2 supply. It's the up and down that seems to lead to big BBA problems: Lots of fish, poor circulation, DIY CO2, erratic water changes, etc.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

That was a quick post before bed. I probably should have added a big question mark at the end. In fact I'll edit it and add, that could be one possible cause. I'm just "spit balling" here. It happens to be an excellent way to learn for me. 

The idea does sounds plausible. I'm new to the hobby so I have done ALOT of reading. In regards to BBA a common theme arises from the question and answers I've seen. 

In nearly every case a condition of fluctuating CO2 levels exist. This and experts telling us it's CO2 related led me to look under the hood and come up with reasons why this could occur. I like learning on my own rather than have someone tell me to do X and Y to achieve Z. However, a two bedroom apartment isn't conducive to 20 experimental tanks to test every hypothesis. So I have to rely on others that have done this and draw conclusions on hundreds of articles and try to connect the dots. I only have two experiments now. My tanks are primarily used for learning to grow healthy algae free plants. It seems silly to me to purchase expensive equipment, plants and fauna only to aquascape an algae farm. Gotta walk before I can run.

I think a plant that looks healthy and is growing can be misleading at times. The plant can undergo many changes before appearing unhealthy. Switching between enzyme production to absorption may not cause the typical yellowing or holes in the leaves etc. However, these enzymes are very expensive for the plant to make and reabsorb for other tasks. So the energy involved will stall growth somewhat and decrease the uptake of nutrients as well as CO2. Example, if you have a CO2 level of 40ppm and turn it off do your plants start dropping leaves and yellowing before you see algae appear? 

I think BBA and most algae in general have "learned" to recognize situations that weaken a plants ability to uptake the nutrients they need as well. CO2 fluctuations is only one. However, I think BBA is one that has targeted this condition better than others. Maybe the CO2 fluctuations trigger an enzyme in BBA to proliferate. Algae certainly can tolerate CO2 fluctuations better than plants.


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## DefStatic (Feb 19, 2013)

Without reading all of this, which I will soon, my understanding is that fast growing plants deprive algae of nutrients. So therefor, if you are using CO2, you probably have faster growing plants taking up the nutrients.


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## Wannaberooted (Jun 24, 2012)

Wannaberooted said:


> I have evidence in my low light tank that lower water flow equals more BBA. That is the only thing that has changed.
> 
> It is only growing on older leaves that are in the brightest spots. Maybe they are leaching nutrients and with less flow to move them away from the plant, the algae can latch on.
> 
> ...


So in my case, a rise in CO2 due to less surface agitation caused it? It hasn't spread, I haven't messed with anything except lessening my light cycle by about 20 minutes. Also, it I correct the flow problem and lower CO2, it could trigger more?

I have low light going for about 8.5 hours a day, dose Leaf Zone and CO2 Booster according to directions religiously at the same time every week/day, a 25% water change at the same time every week, low fish stock, and nitrates never go above 20. I'd say the tank is moderately planted.

Sorry, I don't mean to hijack this thread, but maybe others might have the same problem, and it may help us all understand what is going on.


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## herns (May 6, 2008)

plantbrain said:


> CO2, CO2 and CO2.


I agree with TB.


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## stevenjohn21 (May 23, 2012)

Poor circulation always comes up in a BBA thread, but explain how BBA grows on the inside of the filter output nozzle ?


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## Aquarist_Fist (Jul 22, 2008)

herns said:


> I agree with TB.


If it were that easy, people would have had BBA farms 20 years ago when CO2 was still much less common. But that wasn't the case. It's certainly a factor, but it's not the only one.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

CO2 levels are certainly not the only factor involved with BBA. The same could be said for the cause of traffic accidents when the driver was intoxicated. CO2 has been around for millions of years. Simply because it's injected or not does not eliminate it as a factor for BBA. A weekly water change, turning the lights on/off, decreasing flow from dirty filters, pruning or adding plants, poor water circulation, and many more can all cause CO2 changes.

Now that we use CO2 it's no wonder BBA has become worse. Now in addition to the other causes we have changes as a result of cheap regulators, turning it on/off, poor diffusion, and worse yet bad DIY CO2 setups to name a few.

BBA grows naturally in fast flowing streams and rivers where CO2 is high and fluctuating. Ever floated down one of the spring fed rivers in Florida? It's everywhere. I certainly don't have all the answers but I've noticed that most of the time a condition for fluctuating CO2 levels was present when a hobbyist had a problem with it. Correcting that problem seemed to alleviate the BBA. Why do CO2 levels trigger it? I have no idea. But if we look at where is grows naturally we see the same issue. Everything seems to have a niche in nature. When we create a similar niche in our tanks it's bound to be a problem.


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