# Additional Bio Media in HOB filter? Any benefits?



## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

It's usually better to have more biofiltration than less since there's a larger buffering capacity should something go wrong. Also, I'd rather not have biomedia fully compacted because there just isn't anywhere else to grow/colonize. This reduces flow as well.


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## wade0328 (Jul 10, 2013)

More bio media=more places for bacteria to colonize which is good if you have to replace a filter or if you ever have to cycle another tank!


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## Racedoc (Nov 18, 2013)

I got a piece of the Marinepure bio-media for my emperor 400's - they actually custom make it for that filter but sell it in many varieties. Also put a little bag with some seachem purigen as well. Seems to have made a difference, particularly in clarity.


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## thelub (Jan 4, 2013)

I fill my HOB with lava rock. I stopped using the dumb panel cartridges a long time ago. Lava rock has enough odd sizes that you don't have to worry about a lack of flow and there is a TON of surface area for BB to grow. Stuff works wonders and is usually extremely cheap.


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## fandsw (Jan 30, 2004)

I also threw out the carbon in my C3 when it was new, but I just bought some more of the same C-Nodes biomedia that came with the filter. This basically doubled my bio capability.


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## hedge_fund (Jan 1, 2006)

I fill my filters with this:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=269010

YouTube some videos...especially about the public aquarium exhibit that is using it on a huge tank.


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## alaskajeff (Jan 9, 2014)

I use the newer Ehiem bio substrate; they are round beads made from sintered glass. They have huge surface area for bacteria and last a very long time; plus they are very easy to work with. If you are going to put them in that type of filter it would be even easier if you bought some mesh bags for them. Keep in mind whatever bio filter you do use put at least one layer of mechanical media first so the bio media does not get clogged or coated excessively .


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## Jack Gilvey (Jun 16, 2008)

Racedoc said:


> I got a piece of the Marinepure bio-media for my emperor 400's - they actually custom make it for that filter but sell it in many varieties. Also put a little bag with some seachem purigen as well. Seems to have made a difference, particularly in clarity.


 I use the Marinepure spheres in my Eheim but was thinking of getting an Emperor for my next HOB because those custom inserts are cool.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Plant's compete with biomedia for same food.
Is no harm with using biomedia but in moderately planted tank to heavily planted,, I use only mechanical media and let plant's perform biological filtration.
Really,,if you think about it,,anything placed in the filter be it mechanical media such as foam pad's,floss,etc over time,,,will also become home for beneficial bacteria for it is in direct path of water flowing through the media.
Some folk's stuff their filter's with pot scrubbies's,shower scrubbies. This is mechanical media, but also houses bacteria colony.
Recall one guy long ago,who claimed to stuff tinker toy's in his canister's as biomedia in cichlid tank and this too would work as bacteria would colonize on the surface of these.Biomedia in planted tank is not much of a concern unless tank is grossly overstocked with fishes,grossly over fed (not uncommon),or grossly underplanted.
Opinion's vary.


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## Aquatic Delight (Mar 2, 2012)

my 40g has two canisters that hold a total of 5 baskets. 4 of those baskets conatain BIO-media ( api's chem-stars, and the ceramic rings) you can't ever have to much bio-media. the bacteria will self regulate their size. 

like many have said bacteria is present in and on everything in the tank. but the strongest colony is the one in your filter. and since that is all of your water flows through to get cleaned that is where you should have it.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

In new tank's,,I would agree that largest colony of bacteria will be present on filter material in direct flow of water = food for the bacteria.
But in established tank's (a few month's old) ,the largest surface area by far for bacteria to colonize upon will be the substrate.


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## King of Hyrule (Apr 29, 2013)

I would have kept the carbon*, it's more beneficial than most people give it credit for here on the forum. I'd lose the bio-media, your tank is home to bacteria colony that keeping your tank cycled, plus as others the filter bio-media competes with your plants. 

* tap water is filled with all kinds of weird stuff, heavy metals, industrial chemicals, medication, lots of stuff you don't want in your water. Carbon pulls much of this crap out.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Beneficial bacteria are only good when water flows past it. This I believe to be the main reason that under gravel filter
went out of favor because people just didn't clean them enough to keep them free flowing. It also tells me that
only the top most part of the gravel is useful in this way in a tank which doesn't have an under gravel filter.
But this is the main point...the bacteria ONLY live in proportion to their food supply so putting more bio-media in
there doesn't mean you will have more of those bacteria. It does insure that you will have adequate room for
them to populate if needed however. I've heard nothing but good things about "Purigen" though and if I had extra
room available I'd consider using some of it for a small bag of it.
I use either ceramic pieces or Matrix combined/w "Bio Bale" which is a product available on Flea Bay. Plastic "bio-balls"
that have no media in the inside of them are the least effective form of bio-media.


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## Aquatic Delight (Mar 2, 2012)

roadmaster said:


> In new tank's,,I would agree that largest colony of bacteria will be present on filter material in direct flow of water = food for the bacteria.
> But in established tank's (a few month's old) ,the largest surface area by far for bacteria to colonize upon will be the substrate.



i've never read that, can you back it up?


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Aquatic Delight said:


> i've never read that, can you back it up?


Believe larger colony of bacteria will reside where food is most readily found, (on the tank's substrate).Most of what filter's bring to the bacteria colony therein,, is dissolved or perhap's some suspended solid's,filter's can only trap that which is floating about ,or dissolved.(cept for UG filtration).
Much more room on substrate where majority of food,waste,end's up, and surface area on substrate is more often as not, much greater than surface area available on material inside filter's unless one has filled their canister,/HOB with the often touted pourus bio-media.
Still,,the larger colony of bacteria will be where the most food is available or should I say where the majority of food wind's up.
One can safely remove 1/2 the media in filter, and not see any measureable increase in ammonia,nitrites. Many do this when seeding a new filter,or cleaning filter material.
Remove 1/2 of the substrate however,,,and one is likely to witness ammonia spike.
Anyhow,,, that is my reasoning.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

I'm hoping to agree, at least to some extent, but would also like to remind you of the point that fish waste and decaying plant 
particles are not food for those bacteria but rather the ammonia and nitrites, which are water born, which are created by
them which are actual the food for the bacteria. Under the surface of the gravel no doubt contains plenty of ammonia that those
bacteria can feed on, but to what extent if they are under the gravels surface does that ammonia effect the fish ?
So with these thoughts in mind I tend to agree/w you but doubt the application to any type of balance between those bacteria
and the ones in the filter which do have water flowing over them and therefor are capable of cleansing the water of ammonia
which might directly effect the fish. And it's likely in the category of that old debate about "does the air drag water with it
as it goes up an undergravel filter discharge tube or is it the fact that the water which is in the tube has less weight per
volume than the water outside of the tube and therefor gravity makes the water outside the tube push down more on the water
outside the tube forcing the water up the tube ?" Haven't heard that one since the under gravel filters went out of style.
But just for the record in the earlier days of my first tank as of the start back in 12/2010 I removed about 10-15% of the media
in my bio-filter and killed about 40 shrimp in one day by doing it. But that tank was heavily overstocked.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Raymond S. said:


> I'm hoping to agree, at least to some extent, but would also like to remind you of the point that fish waste and decaying plant
> particles are not food for those bacteria but rather the ammonia and nitrites, which are water born, which are created by
> them which are actual the food for the bacteria. Under the surface of the gravel no doubt contains plenty of ammonia that those
> bacteria can feed on, but to what extent if they are under the gravels surface does that ammonia effect the fish ?
> ...


 
As food ,waste,break's down it creates ammonia, which feed's the bacteria .Bacteria will not develop without source of food. (ie0 fish food,fish waste,or ammonia in liquid form.


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## Aquatic Delight (Mar 2, 2012)

the way you explain it makes sense, but i just can't agree with you. it just doesn't fit how i understand bacteria....




roadmaster said:


> As food ,waste,break's down it creates ammonia, which feed's the bacteria .Bacteria will not develop without source of food. (ie0 fish food,fish waste,or ammonia in liquid form.



yes but shouldn't the bacteria congregate where its food is strongest? and i don't see how that would be in the tank, when flow brings all the goodies into the filter where there is a ton of colony space.


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## Nestle_ (Jul 4, 2013)

Aquatic Delight said:


> the way you explain it makes sense, but i just can't agree with you. it just doesn't fit how i understand bacteria....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


this logic only fits if the water is never still, and never touches teh substrate.
but in most planted tanks the flow is mediocore and allows for the settlement of debri/food/poop/ammonia etc onto the floor. this is why we vaccuum the substrate and its always, always loaded with debris to suck up.


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## King of Hyrule (Apr 29, 2013)

The bacteria will also be found in the sponge media of the filter, along the filters' intake tube and output, plants, substrate, driftwood. The stuff is basically everywhere.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Nitrifying bacteria also require high levels of oxygen. 
The population in the substrate is usually only in the upper layer, where the maximum water movement is, bringing them oxygen and ammonia. 
They do not like light, so they will be found on the underside of every granule of sand, every bit of compost, every rock... as long as there is water movement. 
Basically this means the top few granules of substrate. If you are using a coarse substrate (gravel) and keeping it clean then the bacteria might be found an inch deep. If you are using a sand or finer substrate (soil) then the bacteria will only be a fraction of an inch deep. 

These bacteria live in colonies in a bio film with many other microorganisms. What one eats might be something another ejected, for example, one species specializes in ammonia, and produces nitrite as waste. The nitrite is then almost immediately picked up by another species. So it does not show up in the water as long as the bacteria colonies are healthy. 

In the filter these bacteria will live on almost every media in there: all the sponges, floss, and everything else. 
They are slow growing, though, so a media that is changed out regularly (such as is recommended with carbon and purigen) will not grow a lot of bacteria before it is removed. If you leave it in there, however, the bacteria will colonize these materials, too. 

In a planted tank the plants remove a lot of the ammonia before it even gets to the filter or the bacteria. Also, the bacteria live on the shaded surfaces of the plants: leaves, stems. So plants are a sort of multi-tasking bio media. 
It does not matter how much bio-media you add (even if you are adding sponges and floss, which also become bio media). The bacteria colony will only grow to the size of the food supply. Add more fish (actually, feed more high protein fish food- no need to add more fish) and the plants have more fertilizer and the bacteria could grow some. Just until a new equilibrium is established. 
In a planted tank you do not need to go to extremes to grow bacteria. 

In a non-planted tank, an overstocked (read: overfed) tank, you need more bio media because microorganisms are the only way of getting rid of the ammonia. If you add other ways to get rid of ammonia (zeolite) then you are starving the bacteria, and you had better stay on top of the changing out the zeolite regularly! 

When I was running non planted tanks, and low tech tanks where the plants were not a significant ammonia removal system I could remove up to 25% of the media in the filter, and this tank would not show an ammonia spike. I did this many times to set up a new tank: take 25% of the filter media from each of several tanks, and the new tank was well on its way to being cycled from the start. 

Digging in the substrate generates an ammonia spike not because you are removing a lot of the bacteria (you are not) but because of the build up of wastes in the substrate. They are decomposing slowly, at a rate that does not produce too much ammonia, so the nitrifying bacteria population (living all over the tank and filter) is capable of dealing with it. 
When you disturb the substrate you are releasing this material into an oxygen rich atmosphere (the well circulated water) and the increased oxygen makes the decomposer organisms work faster. They can reproduce really fast, and you get an ammonia spike.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

I agree with all of what Dianna has posted with one possible item for clarification.
Digging ,or vaccuming the substrate is not likely to remove much bacteria for it cling's to hard surface area's as Dianna rightly mention's.(substrate's,rock's, wood,glass,inside wall's/ hoses of filter's,etc).
Removing substrate altogether, or in part,, as some folk's do when making substrate swap,WILL remove fairly large portion of bacterial colony along with the removed substrate.
Then one can possibly witness ammonia spike,bacteria bloom,while bacteria colony catches up with what was removed.


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## EvilFish (Oct 15, 2013)

Can I put biomedia under carbon?


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Jan 16, 2013)

Yes, but unless you have a specific use to use carbon, it's almost pointless to use, and a waste of money. I havn't used carbon in 4 years now.


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## EvilFish (Oct 15, 2013)

I need it to remove the medication. How fast it will remove it? Can I use carbon for a week, after remove and dry it and use again for 1 week after another medication?


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Jan 16, 2013)

It pretty much has a max day use of 6 days. Once done, it should be discarded, carbon isn't really one of those things that can be recharged, and reused. Personally i think the meds would be removed 24>48 hours but if it sits better with you, you can do the full 6 days.


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## Paul1792 (Aug 30, 2013)

*Seachem Purigen + 100 micron polishing pads are the key to success*



EvilFish said:


> Hi,
> 
> I removed the carbon from my HOD Fluval C3 (29g Tank) and put some filter floss. I have some place for additional Bio media like a Seachem Matrix.
> 
> ...


*********
I had a C3 on my 29 gallon which kept water crystal clear and polished ..... but I got a new C4 for it and moved the C3 to my 38 gallon ...... along with a new C3 for a two C3 filter system on my 38 gallon. Both my tanks have pristine water that is so clear and polished it looks like it's been through a canister filter and a UV sterilizer.

My water is every bit as clear as this tank:






but without the mess.

Here is my recipe:

*Mechanical Frame:*

Cut to fit medka that works even better than the factory poly/foam pads. The C3 mechanical frame is desinged for media that is just under 5" x 5" surface area and x 3/8" deep. I find the best C3 results are obtained with the following cut to fit media:

Stage 1: Acurel debris reducing pad (3/8 thick)
Stage 2: AqauticLife 100 micron non-woven polishing pad (just under 1/8" thick)

*Chemical Chamber:*

One 100 ml bag of Seachem Purigen + Seachem Matrix in a bio-bag (as you suggested). Top it off with floss

*Biological*

Factory C-Nodes and drip tray per instructions.

Here is a link to my HOB filtration section on photobucket:

http://s948.photobucket.com/user/Paul1792/library/HOB Filtration?sort=6&page=1

Just click on each relevant picture for an explanation.


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## EvilFish (Oct 15, 2013)

Very interesting! Thanks


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## Paul1792 (Aug 30, 2013)

roadmaster said:


> I agree with all of what Dianna has posted with one possible item for clarification.
> Digging ,or vaccuming the substrate is not likely to remove much bacteria for it cling's to hard surface area's as Dianna rightly mention's.(substrate's,rock's, wood,glass,inside wall's/ hoses of filter's,etc).
> Removing substrate altogether, or in part,, as some folk's do when making substrate swap,WILL remove fairly large portion of bacterial colony along with the removed substrate.
> Then one can possibly witness ammonia spike,bacteria bloom,while bacteria colony catches up with what was removed.


**********
Yes, Diana's analysis is spot on roadmaster and you are correct as well. I am a member of several aquuarium forums besides this one (under the same handle) and what you two say seems to be pretty much "common knowledge" elsewhere. Generally, 80% or more of the beneficial bacteria needed to complete the nitrogen cycle are found in the filter - assuming it a good one and is operating properly. 

Also, compared with Purigen, carbon is relatively ineffective (except to remove medications) and is real "money pit." Purigen is probably the highest rated form "chemical filtration" used for giving crystal clear water in aquarium filters in independent reveiws on Amazon, Drs Foster & Smith, Big Als Pets, etc.


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## plant poop (Feb 16, 2014)

I know im probably restating stuff others have said but this is my OPINIONS (lol) based on my experience

I would have to say that after a tank is fully functional a filter just really becomes a way to remove large debris and create water flow. .. I have a 90 gallon planted preditor tank which i feed heavily and i mean heavily! I have bichirs and gars so I drop in about 50-75 feeders about every week +/- a couple of days so I have a huge bio-load from just keeping that many extra fish plus the waste of them being devoured i run a canister filter on it mainly for water flow and to suck up the extra scales left behind from feeding. I have the foam set up in the area meant for it and the rest is just wads of filter floss. .. now i do check my water parameters frequently (2-3 times a week) and only ever see a spike which has always been barely noticeable when i drop in the feeders (i would assume because of the feeding frenzy) and then its gone within about a 12-24 hour period. .. but to get to the point of why I think filters are somewhat pointless is because if you're like me you most likely dont waste your time to clean your filter out with r.o. water which is going to add chlorine to your applied areas although for not a long time will shock/kill off some of your bacteria also if you're like me you most likely don't sit there and adjust your tap water to meet the exact temperatures of your tank water wich in turn will also shock and kill a lot of your bacteria. .. and the second point i would like to throw out there is this... I went in vacation for three weeks so I dropped about 150-175 feeders in to my tank to tide my fish over and went on my way when i came back my canister filter wasn't running. .. so it could have been that it died 20 minutes before i got home or 20 minutes after i left but seems how it was a $250 canister filter and pretty new instead of buying a new one I had marineland ship me new parts which took about a mont and a half to arrive... now note before it died i ran it with the standard foam it came with and the rest filled with bio-media. .. so while i waited all I had was a spare power head from my reef tank so I soaked it in vinegar and ploped it in my 90 so I didn't have stagnant water and wated a month and a half to get the filter up and running again. .. with that going on I fed them as usual and did water changes as usual and had the same exact water parameters as before with the exception of stupid goldfish scales making mt tank look like a disco ball... 

So in conclusion I would have to say my opinion based on my experience is that almost all of your beneficial bacteria is going to be in the areas that are constantly touching your tank water with the added benefit of having plant's to aid in removing unwanted dissolved materials from the water

I just re-read after posting please excuse grammar and spelling my phone is annoying to type on


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## EvilFish (Oct 15, 2013)

How exactly I can replace fluval bio rings to matrix? By one daily? 2-3 weekly? 
I want to prevent ammonia spike. 

Question about Purigen. 100ml is OK for 29g? How often I need to recharge it? I won't suck plants food or reduce benif. Bacteria colony?


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## EvilFish (Oct 15, 2013)

Also, purigen won't remove the vitamins and food for the filter shrimp? 
Like a Vita-Chem Freshwater, Genchem Biomax #1?


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## EvilFish (Oct 15, 2013)

EvilFish said:


> Also, purigen won't remove the vitamins and food for the filter shrimp?
> Like a Vita-Chem Freshwater, Genchem Biomax #1?


I asked seachem and no, it won't remove it.


Do I need a high flow to Seachem Matrix remove the nitrate on the HOB filter? I'll add another Fluval C3, so maybe I need to remove polyfoam that block the flow? And put Purigen with filterfloss instead? And Stage 3/5 fit only with Matrix?


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