# Stems Melting



## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

For the past two months or so I've been experiencing a really frustrating problem in my 120 w/ the following specs:

MTS substrate capped w/ quartz sand (similar to 3M)
2 Marineland Aquatic Plant LEDs (on for 7 hours 45 minutes a day)
Dosing similar to PPMD system
Eheim 2217 and 850 GPH Hydor Koralia powerhead
Pressurized CO2 (almost to the point where fish are gasping)
gH of 4


Here's what always happens: I put in some new stem plants, they grow absolutely great for several weeks, and then start melting (turning brown and wilty) from the top down till nothing is salveagable. I originally thought this was from insufficient flow as I only had the Eheim running previously, but even after almost a month with the powerhead it's still happening. I'm really confused as to what's going on here as most of the other plants (crypts, Lagenandra, and moss) are growing absolutely fine. Any input?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Lots of close up pictures are needed!

What is PPMD dosing? What ferts are you adding?

Which species of plant is dying?


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

My bad, used the wrong acronym - meant to say PMDD. I'm going off of these values for daily dosing:

0.7 ppm KNO3
0.33 ppm urea
0.2 ppm K2PO4
0.4 ppm MgSO4
0.85 ppm K2SO4

I slightly under-dose for the tank size though though since I have a lot of substrate and hardscape taking up space and only moderate plant density. I also dose Seachem trace per the instructions on the bottle.

Here are some species it has happened to/is happening to:

Rotala macrandra narrow leaf
Rotala singapore
Ammania sp bonsai
Lindernia sp India
Hygrophila balsamica
Rotala sp sunset
Ludwigia senegalensis


Here are some pics:










Just a week and a half ago these were strong and red.

This is how it starts:









Compared to a healthy stem:


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Are you dosing traces? Can you do an ammonia test? Why are you dosing urea?


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Yup, I dose 8.5 mL of Seachem trace every day. I dose urea per the recommendations of Happi. 

Don't have any NH4 test kits on me, but I can certainly go out and buy one if that may be the issue. Does it look like ammonia poisoning though? I have some pretty sensitive fish (chocolate gouramis) and they're fine.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

This may be an iron deficiency. Can you take a few more photos of the other affected plants? Ammonia issues are definitely a contender for damaging the plants. You can take a water sample to an LFS and get them to check it for you for free.

Flourish Trace does not have iron in it at all and iron deficiency shows up in new growth only so the location is correct. I'm just surprised at how severe the symptoms are in your plants. Especially since they seem to have skipped the pale white phase and went straight to late stage necrosis.

Add a fertilizer with iron, 0.2 ppm at least 3 times a week and we can see if it helps solve the issue.


*Flourish Trace:*
Boron (B) 0.0028%
Cobalt (Co) 0.00003%
Copper Cu) 0.0032%
Manganese (Mn) 0.0085%
Molybdenum (Mo) 0.0003%
Zinc (Zn) 0.0169%
Rubidium (Rh) 0.000008%
Nickel (Ni) 0.000003%
Vanadium (V) 0.000002%


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Interesting - I had always assumed Trace had iron buy I guess not. Would iron deficiency lead to a whole plant dying?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Yes iron deficiency can result in the plant dying. It happens eventually from the tip down, but usually you'd see the newest leaves turning white or discoloring before they outright die. This is only in severe iron deficiency which would probably take a few weeks to develop. So I suppose if you've been dosing the same way for several weeks then it it certainly possible.

In any case it is pretty easy to test out. Just dose some EDTA, or DTPA chelated iron, or buy a source of nutrients that has iron only in it. Flourish sells a separate bottle of iron for this purpose though just buying DTPA iron from one of the online retailers is probably the cheapest long term solution.

Do you mind taking a few more photos of the plants?


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

I have seen new growth turning white with the Hygrophila balsamica but that's it. I'll get some more pictures tomorrow. Thanks for all the advice so far.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Here is an advanced case seen with rotala Mac narrow


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Certainly looks like it could be iron. Have you found a source of iron to add?


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## g4search (Aug 10, 2014)

Axelrodi202 said:


> Here's what always happens: I put in some new stem plants, they grow absolutely great for several weeks, and then start melting (turning brown and wilty) from the top down till nothing is salveagable. I originally thought this was from insufficient flow as I only had the Eheim running previously, but even after almost a month with the powerhead it's still happening. I'm really confused as to what's going on here as most of the other plants (crypts, Lagenandra, and moss) are growing absolutely fine. Any input?


Axelrodi202,
I feel your pain. 

The primary reason for plants "melting" is a bacterial infection of the entire plant, or certain parts of the plant. Typically, aquatic plants decay from the substrate upwards, since they are in closest contact with bacteria in the substrate. The stem is usually inserted into the gravel where it was severed and that is just the spot where bacteria invade the stem and start their decaying work. If the plant is healthy, these bacteria will not be able to pass through the first nod and the decay will stop there. 

Now, you report that your plants start decaying from the top down which is somewhat unusual. Clearly, if your plants were totally healthy, bacteria could not attack them! 

So I guess the question that needs to be answered is: _Why are some of my plants susceptible to bacterial decay? _

There are for sure a multitude of factors that need to be considered:

>> Are there high amounts of organics dissolved in the water that would weaken the plants and allow decay-causing bacteria to bloom? [Because of this, I have learned to keep my filters clean and frequently exchange the media. The pattern seems to be when the tanks suffers from a bloom, the filters get dirty in a hurry and the substrate gets dirty too. This is a sign that tons of organics (e.g. tannins) are produced, and for those conditions I recommend to change the carbon media twice a week. (Or alternatively, you can vacuum the substrate and then do a nearly complete water exchange, which I do NOT recommend, however)
I cannot stress enough how important it is to keep the filters and the tank clean. NOT EASY!] 


>> Perhaps spot treating the plants with excel or H2O2 will bring some relief, but you will need to remove all infected parts of the plants first. (this would not be my first recommendation). 


>> Then of course it is mandatory that you get your affected plants healthy again. That would mean to have a critical look at your fertilizers. Certainly you need to keep NO3 up at all cost as well as PO4, these are not your problem as far as having too much. Further experimenting with CO2 and other fertilizers is really up to you! I have noticed that you help here from others.

(Oh one thing though, I would cut out the urea feeding. I have thoroughly studied this in the past. Against popular belief, urea in the water column is not picked up plants, but instead broken down by bacteria to ammonia, and slowly converted further to nitrite and nitrate.)
So urea can only put you at a disadvantage here in that it provides ammonium ions to your tank that you absolutely don't need when you have sick plants.

Just my 2 cents.

I hope you get your tank healthy soon.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Zapins said:


> Certainly looks like it could be iron. Have you found a source of iron to add?


I did some digging around in my fish closet and managed to find a bag of 11% DTPA. What would be a good ppm to add? 

However, another thing that has me worried is a filamentous algae outbreak I've had start up recently - doesn't iron make this type of algae worse (or am I remembering incorrectly)? If so I'm afraid my mosses are good as dead... 


@g4search - wouldn't bacterial infection affect all plants, not just stems? I have crypts, which are usually more melt-prone, that are not suffering from this problem.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Zapins said:


> Add a fertilizer with iron, 0.2 ppm at least 3 times a week and we can see if it helps solve the issue.


Here is how much iron you should add.

As for the algae question you have. Basically when plants are growing fast and are healthy they outcompete algae and kill it off in a number of different ways. So don't worry about adding iron and promoting algae, once the plants are growing well and are well fed they will kill all the algae in your tank. If you want to know why then read through my explanation thread about what causes algae: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=679601



Axelrodi202 said:


> @g4search - wouldn't bacterial infection affect all plants, not just stems? I have crypts, which are usually more melt-prone, that are not suffering from this problem.


Bacterial infections in aquatic plants are almost exclusively opportunistic. That means they will only invade a plant that is unhealthy. If your plants are severely nutrient deficient they begin to break down and die which allows bacteria inside which will digest the dead and dying plant cells. Once you return the plants to health by providing them the missing nutrients then the plant cell death and bacterial rot will stop.

Each plant species has a different tolerance to a lack of each nutrient. This is why some species are better indicators of certain nutrient deficiencies, like potassium deficiency in hygrophilas or iron deficiency in Mayaca fluviatilis. Crypts, anubias, mosses, and ferns are generally terrible indicator plants because they have much larger reserves of nutrients and grow much slower than other species, meaning they take a very long time to show any kind of deficiency. 

Notice how only the new parts of your plants are dying and rotting. That is exactly where you'd expect the plant tissue to die given that iron is not mobile within plants once it has been used to make cell structures. This means only new growth will be affected and damaged because once iron runs out in the environment the plant cannot pull iron out of older leaves to keep growing. This causes the new leaves/growth to die and bacteria to decay it.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Thanks for the link and all the help Zapins. Would adding roughly 0.086 ppm daily be as good as .2 thrice a week?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

I suppose, though to make it easier just add 0.1 ppm a day if you want to do it daily. 

I'd start out by dosing a good 0.3 ppm on the first day to jump start things and then do 0.1 per day after that.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Thanks again for all the advice. I'll start dosing tomorrow and see what happens. Will have to order some new stems and do a huge wc to clear out any melting enzymes before they come. Hopefully this solves the issue.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Spent a good part of the day vacuuming out almost all the dead organic matter in the tank, removing algae (which turned out to be soft, easily removable types) and planting 100+ new stems. Hopefully this time around everything will go better.


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## g4search (Aug 10, 2014)

Axelrodi202,

you got a lot of good advice from Zapins. 

I just want to chime in on the iron dosing. Plants need Fe2+ ions, unfortunately sometimes you have organics in the tank that oxidize Fe2+ rather quickly to Fe3+ions. These are useless for plants. Therefore, it is better to give small doses each day rather than one large dose every week. 

Just a caution though, iron may not remedy all your problems. Make sure that your filters are changed frequently, specially when you have a lot of organic compounds in your tank (due to decay).

I 'm sure your tank will improve soon.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Interesting point on the organics impacting iron type - I did not know that before. I hadn't realized how many decaying organic material I had until I tried taking it all out!

Didn't get a chance to change out the filter medium today. By that are you referring to the soft filter floss, the hard ceramic pieces, or both?


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## g4search (Aug 10, 2014)

Axelrodi202 said:


> Interesting point on the organics impacting iron type - I did not know that before. I hadn't realized how many decaying organic material I had until I tried taking it all out!
> 
> Didn't get a chance to change out the filter medium today. By that are you referring to the soft filter floss, the hard ceramic pieces, or both?


Axelrodi202,

filter floss does mainly catch the debris floating in the tank (unless you have floss-material bags that are filled with something else), and hard ceramic pieces can be designed to filter out specific ions, e.g. ammonia), but mostly they serve as "biofilters," that is, bacteria settle on them and extract organic solubles out of the water and use these as nutrients or break them down to smaller molecules that the plants can then use as nutrients. In general terms tough, these filters don't really remove organic molecule from the water.
The primary reason that people perform water changes is just to get rid of these "organic" molecules. You can also look at it as balancing the REDOX POTENTIAL (as some aquarists refer to), and this is so because 80-90% of the redox potential can be attributed to "organics".
However, the best means to get rid of bothersome organic molecules is to filter the water though "activated carbon," or resins that function similarly, such as "purigen." 

So when I was referring to exchanging filter material, I really was thinking of carbon filters, or those that remove (soluble) organic material. On high organic loads the filters can get saturated quickly and then become useless.
BTW, I make it a rule to frequently smell my tanks. If I detect any strange odor, it is time to think about changing filter materials.

Hope your tank is doing well now!


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