# BBA is killing me! Thinking about going low-tech because of it



## shinycard255 (Sep 15, 2011)

So BBA has been the death of me. I have been battling it for at least 6 months, if not longer. I thought I had a grip on it at one point in time because it stopped spreading and started diminishing, but it's starting to spread again.

I've tried numerous things to try and stop it, but yet to no avail, it still comes out ahead. I've tried tweaking the CO2 input so I have a more consistent amount in the water by adjusting when the CO2 comes on/off in comparison to the lights. I've tried spot treating the bad areas with both H2O2 and Excel. I've turned over the flourite that has BBA on it so that the BBA doesn't get anymore light. I've tweaked the amount of light over the tank. (Obviously, I didn't do all of these at once, but over the course of the past 6+ months that I've been battling it)

I don't know what to do anymore. I've read over a bunch of the threads about BBA and I've tried almost all those suggestions as well. The BBA just looks so nasty and I can't stand looking at it anymore.

Any other suggestions before I pull the plug on my high-tech setup and go back to low-tech?


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## Asgard (Feb 8, 2008)

I had a BBA problem too, got rid of it by using Easy Carbo, almost twice the recommended dose daily, for a week or 6 (shrimp, snails, fish were fine). Flourish Excel would have been fine too. And I removed a reflector of the back one of the 2 T5 tubes (Juwel Rio 125) as it gave too much light on the background.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Until you master CO2, BBA will follow you.
Focus on growing plants and watching that.


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

I agree that you still have some tweaking to do. In the meantime, for a short-term fix, check out this thread (read all the way through):

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20172


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Unless you lay all the details out on the table, you'll get generic answers.

Some of this is in your 60G thread, but we have no idea about current lighting schedule/distance, ferts, etc.

A pic of the algae in question can be useful. Several types are commonly called BBA.

Is the algae on the substrate in a high or low flow area, or distributed evenly? Is it on plants? Particular ones? Any noticeable relation to lighting distance or high/low flow there?


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## shinycard255 (Sep 15, 2011)

DarkCobra said:


> Unless you lay all the details out on the table, you'll get generic answers.
> 
> Some of this is in your 60G thread, but we have no idea about current lighting schedule/distance, ferts, etc.
> 
> ...


Yes, it is my 60G (I can never find time to update my journals anymore)

My current set-up:
-Lights are 2x T5HO (meant for hydroponics) 12" above tank. Puts me at ~45-50 par at the substrate
-5lb CO2 tank with Fisher dual gauge regulator, Brass CGA inlet, burkert solenoid, Ideal needle valve running at ~6bps (hard to count)
-EI dosing per Yet Another Nutrient Calculator on a 60G tank (was dry dosing, just switched over to liquid)
-Dirt capped with Flourite
-60% WC weekly

CO2 schedule
11am-2:30pm & 5pm-8:30pm

Light schedule
1pm-4pm & 6pm-10pm

pics (I'm ashamed to show them :icon_frow):













































All of it is scattered throughout the tanks. The most is on my Anubias. It grows on my Anubias Nana and Amazon Sword the most, then usually on equipment and the substrate. I will probably end up cutting that leaf off of the Anubias and a few other leaves as well. The Anubias and Amazon Sword are both in very high light areas of the tank. They both get hit with a lot of light. I've also heard that Flourite likes BBA, but that may be a myth, who knows. The algae is found in both high and low flow areas, it seems to like both.

A few months ago I moved my powerhead to the other side of the tank so now the flow out of the canister filter is getting blown out towards the front glass pane and to the other side, while the powerhead blows from the other side along the back wall. I used to have both on the same side, not sure if that would have anything to do with it.

If you have any other questions, just ask


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## shinycard255 (Sep 15, 2011)

kevmo911 said:


> I agree that you still have some tweaking to do. In the meantime, for a short-term fix, check out this thread (read all the way through):
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20172


I will sit down and make some time for this as it is 27 pages long. Thanks for the advice, I will check this out


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## m00se (Jan 8, 2011)

If it makes you feel any better (and I know it won't) I hear the CO2 mantra over and over and over and over about BBA. Riddle me this: I have plenty of NO3, PO4, K, CSM+B and FE, 5+ BPS CO2, bright yellow on the BC, with 6500k CFLs 8 hours a day, on timers, with 50% weekly WCs and using Wet's calculator for fert dosing EI. Yet:

I get BBA _growing out of the CO2 spray bar holes coming from the Cerges reactor._

...concentrate on the plants they say....

Going on almost a year fight here....


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## n00dl3 (Jan 26, 2008)

What is your tank equipment? filter? total flow gph?

According to James's Planted Tank.net the cause of the problem is:
In a high light tank it is an indication of low or fluctuating CO2 levels or not enough water circulation around the plants. In a low light tank it is often due to changing CO2 levels.

If you got your co2 worked out, I think you have a low flow problem in the tank.

I would recommend leaving your co2 constantly on like 1-2 hours on before the light goes on and 1 hour before the light goes off.


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## shinycard255 (Sep 15, 2011)

n00dl3 said:


> What is your tank equipment? filter? total flow gph?
> 
> According to James's Planted Tank.net the cause of the problem is:
> In a high light tank it is an indication of low or fluctuating CO2 levels or not enough water circulation around the plants. In a low light tank it is often due to changing CO2 levels.
> ...


Filter: Fluval 406 (383gph)
Powerhead: MaxiJet 900 (230gph)
Both of these put me at 613gph

I'm also already turning the CO2 on before the lights turn on, and vice versa. DC is pushing yellow, maybe changing the flow up a bit might help


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Lower your tank temp. Constant 65-70f if livestock will be ok. 

What is your current temp?

I has a lot of BBA when I was closer to 80f and I even had 2 pressurized co2 systems with EI dosing and did all kinds of thing about light.

I don't want to sound like I'm telling everyone have a colder tank as a solution for all issues, but algae seems to behave better now. 

The other factor I believe* had something to do is good flow and over filtration. 

I wasn't doing water changes. Every 6 months like 20%... Using RO/DI water for top offs.


* i believe = I'm not certain.


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## shinycard255 (Sep 15, 2011)

Current temp is 75˚. 

I just started doing water changes with RO/DI water mixed with regular tap water within the past few weeks. I top off with RO/DI water daily, about 1/3 gallon. 

It is possible that the flow in my tank has to change a bit. I'm going to move the powerhead back to the same side as my filter output and see how everything goes over the next few weeks. I'm also going to try to get rid of as much of it as I can this weekend during my usual WC.


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## n00dl3 (Jan 26, 2008)

shinycard255 said:


> Filter: Fluval 406 (383gph)
> Powerhead: MaxiJet 900 (230gph)
> Both of these put me at 613gph
> 
> I'm also already turning the CO2 on before the lights turn on, and vice versa. DC is pushing yellow, maybe changing the flow up a bit might help


Your flow doesn't seem that bad. I assumed they are directed where all your plants are swaying with no dead spots... even with carpet plant or low growing plants. 

IME, I usually get BBA when I ran out of CO2, lots of light, and low flow.

I would spot treat the BBA with excel. Here is what I do, turn off all filters and power head for 15 minutes so there is no more water movement in the tank. Then take a springe or turkey blaster filled with 100% excel. Squirt the excel at the BBA location and leave it for about 10 minutes. After that, turn everything on. I usually treat it for two consecutive days. Then wait until 3-5 days, you'll see the BBA changed to pinkish color. That means they are dying.


Last, I would either increase your flow or optimize your current flow for maximum distribution.


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## n00dl3 (Jan 26, 2008)

shinycard255 said:


> It is possible that the flow in my tank has to change a bit. I'm going to move the powerhead back to the same side as my filter output and see how everything goes over the next few weeks. I'm also going to try to get rid of as much of it as I can this weekend during my usual WC.


Ohhh... yea... make sure your ouput doesn't counteract each other out. I like to make one continously loop.


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Shinycard,

Thanks for being brave and sharing those pictures. Most of us have seen similar in our own tanks at some point.

Nothing in the additional info is jumping out at me as the culprit. I see you have a drop checker, and assume you are using a proper 4°KH solution. I see also you've reduced light, which *did* look excessive six months ago or less.

Once you reach this extreme level of algae infestation, correcting an underlying problem typically has little impact on this kind of algae. It seems to be able to modify its own environment to be favorable for continued growth, even beyond the obvious detrimental health impact on plants.

Gotta hit it hard to turn a tank like this around. Wipe out all you can in one pass. If you haven't tried the Excel overdose whole tank treatment yet, by all means do it. It works well most of the time. If you have tried that and it failed, I have an interesting (but experimental) treatment that's much more potent.


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## dmagerl (Feb 2, 2010)

I can empathize with you. I've had my tank for 5 years and have always had BBA. I've read all the threads on BBA, tried all the solutions, been there done that, and still have BBA.

All I can say is be very careful when spot treating BBA with Excel. I usually ended up with dead leaves wherever I spot treated. I used to use Excel diluted 2 to 1 in the syringe and even though the BBA died, the leaves eventually always died too. Its like the Excel killed the leaf weeks later or once infected with BBA, death was inevitable.


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## shinycard255 (Sep 15, 2011)

Yes, proper 4˚KH solution in the DC. Yes, the light was excessive a few months ago, which is why I toned it back some. I'm pruning back most of the leaves and am dipping the equipment in a H2O2/water solution.

Excel overdose is doing 2x the daily amount, correct?

Not sure if I'm willing to try out something experimental. If worst comes to worst, I'm just going low-tech


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

BBA is in low tech as well.


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

shinycard255 said:


> Yes, proper 4˚KH solution in the DC. Yes, the light was excessive a few months ago, which is why I toned it back some. I'm pruning back most of the leaves and am dipping the equipment in a H2O2/water solution.
> 
> Excel overdose is doing 2x the daily amount, correct?
> 
> Not sure if I'm willing to try out something experimental. If worst comes to worst, I'm just going low-tech


Honestly, I wouldn't bother worrying about the drop checker solution. Plant health and livestock will tell you where you need to go with it. Neither of my tanks have them and both have different diffusion methods...however the only algae I get in either of them is the occasional GDA. The tank will tell you what you need to do. Trust it.


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

shinycard255 said:


> Excel overdose is doing 2x the daily amount, correct?


Yep, or sometimes even 3x if the algae has proven resistant. If there's currently no Excel in the tank, I like to start with an initial one-time 5x dose (5ml/10G), which is actually Seachem's recommended "attack dose" for normal use. Sudden increases are harder for algae to tolerate. I always wondered if that was Seachem's sneaky way of showing people what it could really do, since for legal reasons they can't claim any algicidal properties.


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

shinycard255 said:


> I will sit down and make some time for this as it is 27 pages long. Thanks for the advice, I will check this out


Heh, yeah, I know it's a long read. It's mostly information from people trying different methods.

The gist of it is that 2-3 times the daily (NOT startup) recommended dose of Excel, over several days to 14 days, seems to be fairly effective. The downside of it is that certain fragile plants can be hit pretty hard by it, and so can inverts. Higher and longer doses had the most negative effects, while lower and shorter doses were less vicious.

My experience is that dosing 2X the regular amount, using spot dosing while pumps are all off for 15-30 minutes, works very well on the targeted areas, and fairly well overall. For full-tank treatments without spot dosing, I'd leave the powerheads on but turn off filters for 15-30 minutes. I've also found that in spot dosing, using a syringe with an actual needle end is most effective. It really doesn't take much, so it's easy to spread tiny amounts of glutaraldehyde around with a tiny needle end.


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## shinycard255 (Sep 15, 2011)

So a bit of an update...

I pulled all my equipment out of the tank last week and dipped into a 3:1 (tap:h2o2) solution which killed off most of the BBA. I've started turning over some of my substrate as to cover up the BBA growing on it. I'm most likely going to start spot treating my anubias tonight to get any extra BBA off of it. Powerhead and filter output are both on the same side of the tank now (hoping that will help with flow issues). Changed out the 4dkh solution in my DC. I'm also topping my tank off daily with RO water since it's an open top tank.

kevmo, still reading through the 27pg topic you referred me to


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## TropicalCorys (Dec 25, 2012)

I'm currently battling it too right now. For my 55 gallon I'm spot treating 5mil of flourish excel and 2-3 hours later 5ml of algaefix (don't over dose... your fish may act a little strange but they will be fine in an hour but this stuff will kill your shrimp). I turn filter off and start spot treatments and turn filter on 5 mins later. works like a charm. BBA turns pink in a few hours and then turns white after a day or two. After that i scrape it off or my cleanup crew has taking care of it. I'm now at the two week mark and barely see it anywhere. :bounce:


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## herns (May 6, 2008)

plantbrain said:


> Until you master CO2, BBA will follow you.
> Focus on growing plants and watching that.


+1.
Spot treatment of Metricide 14 will help. Excel will drain your wallet.


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## shinycard255 (Sep 15, 2011)

herns said:


> plantbrain said:
> 
> 
> > Until you master CO2, BBA will follow you.
> ...


2 sentence comments without giving any actual advice on how to help doesn't really help out many people... sorry


I've heard Metricide 14 thrown around this forum a few times. I will look into it. Would spot treating with H2O2 also be a viable replacement for Excel?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

shinycard255 said:


> 2 sentence comments without giving any actual advice on how to help doesn't really help out many people... sorry
> 
> 
> I've heard Metricide 14 thrown around this forum a few times. I will look into it. Would spot treating with H2O2 also be a viable replacement for Excel?



You read the sentence but did not understand what it said. Those 2 simple comments made all the difference in the world to myself and many others: 











Once you understand this, then algae is a minor issue. Many aquarist want a pill to kill the algae, not learn to grow better plants. This hobby is about growing plants, not killing algae. So the focus should be there. Algae is diagnostic, but only as a more problematic plant growth issue. 
So either way, the focus is on the plants.

Glutaraldehyde can be used at normal dosing if you spot treat. I do not use it, only as a spray on wood if it gets infested and I know I need to look at CO2 as the root issue. 
H2O2 seems to work well if not better and is MUCH cheaper than any source of glutaraldehyde. You can also be hyper aggressive with H2O2 and apply 2-3x a day with a few hours in between. 
Always turn water flow off for a minute or two before applying.

Then wait about 5 min, then resume.
You have a CO2 issue if you have BBA on plants, no algae treatment will cure that.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> You read the sentence but did not understand what it said. Those 2 simple comments made all the difference in the world to myself and many others:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i am one of those many others.
almost every one of my tanks has gone through a period where BBA is growing in the beginning until i figure out how to balance my lighting and CO2. then it goes away (i usually speed the process up by spot dosing, but that alone will not make it stay away). 
make sure you have good CO2, good flow (to distribute the CO2), good fertz, and not too-high lighting.


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## shinycard255 (Sep 15, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> You read the sentence but did not understand what it said. Those 2 simple comments made all the difference in the world to myself and many others:
> 
> Once you understand this, then algae is a minor issue. Many aquarist want a pill to kill the algae, not learn to grow better plants. This hobby is about growing plants, not killing algae. So the focus should be there. Algae is diagnostic, but only as a more problematic plant growth issue.
> So either way, the focus is on the plants.
> ...


If there were a pill to kill all algae, that would be a miracle, but I don't see that happening. I have quite a few plants that grow like weeds in my tank, while others don't grow as fast

I've only done H2O2 as a tap/h2o2 solution out of the tank in a 5g bucket as a dip, but never as spot treating.

So how can I treat my CO2 issue to get rid of the BBA? My DC is yellow, I changed flow up a bit (it might have been that, but not sure), EI dosing, and have around 50PAR of light at the substrate



@[email protected] said:


> i am one of those many others.
> almost every one of my tanks has gone through a period where BBA is growing in the beginning until i figure out how to balance my lighting and CO2. then it goes away (i usually speed the process up by spot dosing, but that alone will not make it stay away).
> make sure you have good CO2, good flow (to distribute the CO2), good fertz, and not too-high lighting.


This tank has bad BBA in it for the past few months. Balance light and CO2? I thought BBA comes from the fluctuation of CO2 in the water, not the lighting?

(sorry for duplicating my answer, but I said the same thing up above to Tom)
My DC is yellow, I changed flow up a bit (it might have been that, but not sure), EI dosing, and have around 50PAR of light at the substrate


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Correct CO2 does help in many situations, but let's get real it's not an algeacide. It will only make a big difference if there is enough fast growing plant mass. How many LFS tanks look like the tanks in the pictures that the OP posted. Most of those tanks are lowlight, but have BBA growing everywhere. Poor maintenance and high organic load. Try putting CO2 in those tanks and see if it helps. You need to hit BBA from all ends and don't try to figure it out. You can reduce light duration, keep up with water changes, add carbon/organic waste remover, add plant mass and you eventually see your BBA problems go away. Using excel or glutaraldehyde to rid your tank of BBA is really not a solution IMO.


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## shinycard255 (Sep 15, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> Correct CO2 does help in many situations, but let's get real it's not an algeacide. It will only make a big difference if there is enough fast growing plant mass. How many LFS tanks look like the tanks in the pictures that the OP posted. Most of those tanks are lowlight, but have BBA growing everywhere. Poor maintenance and high organic load. Try putting CO2 in those tanks and see if it helps. You need to hit BBA from all ends and don't try to figure it out. You can reduce light duration, keep up with water changes, add carbon/organic waste remover, add plant mass and you eventually see your BBA problems go away. Using excel or glutaraldehyde to rid your tank of BBA is really not a solution IMO.


_You can reduce light duration_
Already did this. I went from 4x 55W T5HOs 18" above the tank to 2x 55W T5HOs 12" above the tank. I believe I also went from 8, down to 7 hours a day

_Keep up with water changes_
I do this regularly on Sundays with around 60% water changes. I have been doing WCs on Sundays from day 1 (kinda my thing). 

_Add carbon/organic waste remover_
Never thought of doing this, since I've always read you don't want to add carbon to a planted tank due to it taking out the fertilizer, but I've also read that that's a myth as well... so not sure about this one. I could give it a shot for a few weeks and see what happens.

_Add plant mass_








I've got quite a bit of plants in this tank already. I feel like I don't have much more room in this tank for more

I know that using Excel or H2O2 is only a "cover up" or "quick fix" and I need to find the root cause, but I've been trying to make it disappear for the past several months (as have many others out there)


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I would definitely do the organic removal thing. I always do that from day one to lessen the change of anything starting along with a short light duration and seeding of the bio-filter. Do you have plants that grow or mostly slow growers, etc taking up most of the space. I guess I'll see that from the pic. The whole carbon is bad for plants is really alot of BS. If you have algae issues or want to prevent algae issues don't hesitate to use carbon and/or organic waste removal media. 

In addition to changing water do you remove dead leaves regularly and what is your fish load and feeding. The cleanliness of the water is key especially if you have already reducing lighting, etc. I'm no a big fan of dirt bottoms, but does that get stirred up at all?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

shinycard255 said:


> If there were a pill to kill all algae, that would be a miracle, but I don't see that happening. I have quite a few plants that grow like weeds in my tank, while others don't grow as fast
> 
> I've only done H2O2 as a tap/h2o2 solution out of the tank in a 5g bucket as a dip, but never as spot treating.
> 
> ...


bba comes from CO2 problems, yes. but whether it can be a sign of CO2 flux, or overall insufficiency, i cant say; probably both induce it equally well.
light drive CO2 need. the more light you have, the more CO2 you need. its a balancing act.
i do not use a drop checker. used to, but then trashed it. i used to keep it green in my ADA 30C, and my CO2 was not high enough (my tank had a ph of 6.7 at that time). then i turned up the CO2 til it turned yellow and my tank had a ph of 6.2 (i keep mentioning ph cuz i keep my CO2 on a ph controller, and can indicate how much more im putting relative to the previous value). but i still had some CO2 problems, including BBA. a while later, i removed the drop checker and started paying attention to my plants instead to see what they say.
got the tank to this (with a ph of 5.4):









the drop checker was giving me a false answer. its not the best tool in the world.
but look at the other part of the picture. that tank used to have BBA problems, and it was saved.
good CO2, flow, and nutrients to encourage plant vigor and halt BBA growth, and some occasional excel to kill what BBA was still there was all it took. simple, but only in retrospect.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

@[email protected] said:


> bba comes from CO2 problems, yes. but whether it can be a sign of CO2 flux, or overall insufficiency, i cant say; probably both induce it equally well.
> ...


That's just way to general a statement IMO. If that was true, every tank without CO2 would have BBA and that's not the case. What every tank has is organic waste and this needs to be kept in check especially if the plant uptake isn't there.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

houseofcards said:


> That's just way to general a statement IMO. If that was true, every tank without CO2 would have BBA and that's not the case. What every tank has is organic waste and this needs to be kept in check especially if the plant uptake isn't there.


shouldve read the next line. light drives CO2 need. low light tanks need less CO2, if you have low enough light, ambient CO2 is enough and you dont need to supplement it.
that said, dissolved organics do tend to help most algae out; and good maintenance never hurt an aquarium.


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## m00se (Jan 8, 2011)

40b with inert blasting grit sub. Tank set up 1 year. 50+% WC every Sunday. NO3 ~40-60 ppm. Dose KH2PO4, KSO4, CSM+B per Wet's calculator. FE when I think about it. No other algae issues.

I received a "gift" of bba along with a batch of plants someone gave me from their soon-to-be-torn-down tank. I didn't bleach them, and what a mistake. I have battled it for 8+ months now, using the usual techniques. It grows everywhere. I do EI and 5 bps pressurized CO2, three 23w CFLs on 9 hours a day. Cerges reactor on a closed loop pump. Drop checker canary yellow on opposite side of tank from CO2 spray bars. FX5 through spray bars. Plenty of water movement... Parameters are fine. Chock full of stems and crypts. 

*I have BBA growing at each hole on the spray bar.* Nice beautiful tufts that I have to scrub off with a toothbrush after I soak the bar in strong bleach solution for 2 hours....


I put 6 American Flag fish in this tank, and I can say without a doubt, the bba is disappearing. I am impressed with these beautiful fish. But...bba? Yea, tell me all about parameters and this and that. My experience is a bit different on this one.


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## shinycard255 (Sep 15, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> I would definitely do the organic removal thing. I always do that from day one to lessen the change of anything starting along with a short light duration and seeding of the bio-filter. Do you have plants that grow or mostly slow growers, etc taking up most of the space. I guess I'll see that from the pic. The whole carbon is bad for plants is really alot of BS. If you have algae issues or want to prevent algae issues don't hesitate to use carbon and/or organic waste removal media.
> 
> In addition to changing water do you remove dead leaves regularly and what is your fish load and feeding. The cleanliness of the water is key especially if you have already reducing lighting, etc. I'm no a big fan of dirt bottoms, but does that get stirred up at all?


I updated my previous post with a pic of the tank.

I'll get my hands on some carbon and toss those in a for a few weeks and see if it helps.

I do try to prune back what I can when I see it. I'm assuming any dead plant matter doesn't help out much?

Fish load is 2 angelfish, 10 ornate tetras, 5 sterbai cory cats, 3 otos, 1 bristlenose pleco. I feed every other day at night. 

No, the substrate does not get stirred up either.



@[email protected] said:


> bba comes from CO2 problems, yes. but whether it can be a sign of CO2 flux, or overall insufficiency, i cant say; probably both induce it equally well.
> light drive CO2 need. the more light you have, the more CO2 you need. its a balancing act.
> i do not use a drop checker. used to, but then trashed it. i used to keep it green in my ADA 30C, and my CO2 was not high enough (my tank had a ph of 6.7 at that time). then i turned up the CO2 til it turned yellow and my tank had a ph of 6.2 (i keep mentioning ph cuz i keep my CO2 on a ph controller, and can indicate how much more im putting relative to the previous value). but i still had some CO2 problems, including BBA. a while later, i removed the drop checker and started paying attention to my plants instead to see what they say.
> got the tank to this (with a ph of 5.4):
> ...


I've heard that the drop checker really isn't that accurate, it just gives you a rough idea. 

Now, lets say I do have low CO2 in the tank, how would I be able to tell from my plants that I have low CO2? That's the part that I'm stumped on. Watch the plants, I understand, but what am I looking for exactly? I'm assuming better and more luscious growth, right?

I've already pushed my CO2 to where my fish were gasping for air, so I turned it down a little bit and have left it there since.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Looking at this thread and all the dogmatic answers makes me SO glad I quit CO2 and went back to low-tech. I'm sure that there is some good information here, but my tank is finally algae free, lush, and green and I am pretty happy!

still trying to sell my CO2 setup, though!


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## shinycard255 (Sep 15, 2011)

Dave-H said:


> Looking at this thread and all the dogmatic answers makes me SO glad I quit CO2 and went back to low-tech. I'm sure that there is some good information here, but my tank is finally algae free, lush, and green and I am pretty happy!
> 
> still trying to sell my CO2 setup, though!


Trust me, if I can't figure out this issue within the next few months, I'm going to be pulling the plug myself. And if I were to try it again at some point, it would probably be on a nano


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

shinycard255 said:


> I updated my previous post with a pic of the tank.
> 
> I'll get my hands on some carbon and toss those in a for a few weeks and see if it helps.
> 
> ...


pearling is one of the things i look for.
but not every plant will pearl significantly.
the best thing is the growth, but that takes time to see a difference, and its not always easy to notice. if you have any red plants, they get less red if CO2 gets worse (all other things being equal). 

since your CO2 is high (if your fish are gasping), then perhaps its a distribution problem. any low-flow spots in the tank?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

shinycard255 said:


> I've heard that the drop checker really isn't that accurate, it just gives you a rough idea.
> 
> Now, lets say I do have low CO2 in the tank, how would I be able to tell from my plants that I have low CO2? That's the part that I'm stumped on. Watch the plants, I understand, but what am I looking for exactly? I'm assuming better and more luscious growth, right?
> 
> I've already pushed my CO2 to where my fish were gasping for air, so I turned it down a little bit and have left it there since.


I've been down the same road as most everyone that's complained about BBA. 
Amano has also, he said he suffered for 10 years with BBA. I suffered for about 3 years. 

The crux is the plant growth. But if you are new, you lack the experience to know what to look for. So you sort of are screwed either way.

But......you got to start somewhere.

So the pH meter and KH method is a decent place to start I think.
pH meters are not cheap, decent liquid test kits are though.
Good KH test kits might run 7-20$.

Test often when dialing things in. Then slowly and progressively adjust more and more CO2. This must be done slowly.

Pay careful note to the plants, ignore the algae EXCEPT for NEW algae growth.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

@[email protected] said:


> shouldve read the next line. light drives CO2 need. low light tanks need less CO2, if you have low enough light, ambient CO2 is enough and you dont need to supplement it.
> that said, dissolved organics do tend to help most algae out; and good maintenance never hurt an aquarium.


I did read your next line and it was too general a response, you added to your original line that you stated in your original post. If you would have stated that I probably wouldn't have said anything.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Dave-H said:


> Looking at this thread and all the dogmatic answers makes me SO glad I quit CO2 and went back to low-tech. I'm sure that there is some good information here, but my tank is finally algae free, lush, and green and I am pretty happy!
> 
> still trying to sell my CO2 setup, though!


That's fine and you could certainly have a very nice setup without co2, bu once you go that route you are limited in what you can grow and many times how well they grow compared to co2-enriched plants. 

Sometimes it's a lifestyle choice and it's simply not worth it.


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## n00dl3 (Jan 26, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> pearling is one of the things i look for.
> but not every plant will pearl significantly.
> the best thing is the growth, but that takes time to see a difference, and its not always easy to notice. if you have any red plants, they get less red if CO2 gets worse (all other things being equal).
> 
> since your CO2 is high (if your fish are gasping), then perhaps its a distribution problem. any low-flow spots in the tank?


1+ It takes time, patience, and careful observation. IME, it is always come down to co2 and flow for co2 and nutrients distribution.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

n00dl3 said:


> 1+ It takes time, patience, and careful observation. IME, it is always come down to co2 and flow for co2 and nutrients distribution.


I don't disagree that if you have BBA highlight can make it worse/harder to control, but co2 isn't always the problem. There are plenty of folks here that run co2 until there fish are gassed and they still have BBA. I've seen BBA grow in all tank lit conditions. I've seen BBA growing in an indoor koi pond with no direct light. How 'bout all those dim-lit LFS tanks.


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## shinycard255 (Sep 15, 2011)

@[email protected] said:


> pearling is one of the things i look for.
> but not every plant will pearl significantly.
> the best thing is the growth, but that takes time to see a difference, and its not always easy to notice. if you have any red plants, they get less red if CO2 gets worse (all other things being equal).
> 
> since your CO2 is high (if your fish are gasping), then perhaps its a distribution problem. any low-flow spots in the tank?


I hardly every see any pearling in my tank. I've noticed that my Stargrass grows like crazy and the Rotala Indica and Ludwigia Red has started to grow better. Ludwigia Red is mostly red, new stems are green but then changed to red as they get closer to the top of the tank.

I had issues with flow in the bottom left corner of my tank (where BBA was growing on the substrate) and also around the Anubias. I'm hoping that me moving the powerhead to the same side as the filter output will help with flow and distribution of CO2 and nutrients.



plantbrain said:


> I've been down the same road as most everyone that's complained about BBA.
> Amano has also, he said he suffered for 10 years with BBA. I suffered for about 3 years.
> 
> The crux is the plant growth. But if you are new, you lack the experience to know what to look for. So you sort of are screwed either way.
> ...


You mentioned PH and KH method, would you mind explaining this? I've never heard of this. I have both PH and KH tests

I will start watching the plants more carefully to see if I see any changes (hopefully for the better) and only look for new algae growth and battle that instead of old algae

Also, how am I supposed to bring my CO2 up more when I already brought it up to the point of my fish gasping at the top for air?



n00dl3 said:


> 1+ It takes time, patience, and careful observation. IME, it is always come down to co2 and flow for co2 and nutrients distribution.


I did just move my powerhead so I'm going to see how the plants start to react now. I'm hoping for the better



houseofcards said:


> I don't disagree that if you have BBA highlight can make it worse/harder to control, but co2 isn't always the problem. There are plenty of folks here that run co2 until there fish are gassed and they still have BBA. I've seen BBA grow in all tank lit conditions. I've seen BBA growing in an indoor koi pond with no direct light. How 'bout all those dim-lit LFS tanks.


BBA is one notorious PITA. All my low-med light tanks don't have a BBA issue, only my 60G that has CO2 on it. Some LFS tanks don't get the attention they deserve either, but that's another story


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## n00dl3 (Jan 26, 2008)

houseofcards said:


> I don't disagree that if you have BBA highlight can make it worse/harder to control, but co2 isn't always the problem. There are plenty of folks here that run co2 until there fish are gassed and they still have BBA. I've seen BBA grow in all tank lit conditions. I've seen BBA growing in an indoor koi pond with no direct light. How 'bout all those dim-lit LFS tanks.


You have valid points but I'm only going to talk about from my personal experience as you know every tank is different. 

I have done both low tech and high tech planted tanks. I have always found flow is understated in planted tank. Of course, routine maintenance is always must. 

I have a few BBA outbreaks, but they occurred when: 

1: I'm lazy of keeping up my maintenance so all the plants are overgrown, therefore, inhibiting the flow in the tank.

2. Stop fertilizing because I'm busy with other stuff or laziness. 

3. Ran out of co2 and stop fert. This cause a massive algae outbreak in a high tech tank. Almost every algae you can think of.

My remedies were always the same... keep up routine maintenance, trim plants or increase flow (not necessary increasing filtration), and spot treat the algae. 

IME, to sustain a good almost algae free low tech or high tech tank is good flow. By maintaining good flow, the tank will get good distribution of nutrients or c02 which keep algae from to adhere and grow on your plants, glass, or equipment. And all the plants in the tank get equal nutrients. 

I've read in your posts that you've keep a tank successful with less than 1 turnover. I think that is awesome if you can do that. But from my experience, I could never do that. Maybe you should a write up on it.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

shinycard255 said:


> You mentioned PH and KH method, would you mind explaining this? I've never heard of this. I have both PH and KH tests


Going back to this:
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/kh-ph-co2-chart.html

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=5264



> I will start watching the plants more carefully to see if I see any changes (hopefully for the better) and only look for new algae growth and battle that instead of old algae
> 
> Also, how am I supposed to bring my CO2 up more when I already brought it up to the point of my fish gasping at the top for air? BBA is one notorious PITA. All my low-med light tanks don't have a BBA issue, only my 60G that has CO2 on it. Some LFS tanks don't get the attention they deserve either, but that's another story


If you correct the initial cause(say poor CO2) for the BBA bloom(new BBA growth all over the place, often smothering things fairly quick(1-3 weeks), you still will have adult old BBA covering things. It will NOT die by correcting to good CO2.

BBA will also grow fine in very low light.

So you are still left with basic maintenance when you fall off the CO2 routine and get a bloom. Such labor is effective, but only if you stop the NEW growth. Cappish?

So then Excel/H2O2 spot treatments , finger nails, trimming the old leaves off, toothbrush scrubbing, cleaning any equipment that gets infested etc, works. 

Otherwise it'll just get covered a week later.
SAE's(true) will eat it and keep semi moderate amounts at bay.
Amano shrimp in high no#s' will beat new BBA back quite well IME. 

I took out a rock covered many years ago as did another member, with BBA, and let it dry out for a few months return it, and the BBA came back to life.

So what you want: no NEW BBA growth; algae free new plant growth.
It'll take some time to get rid of it.

Many mistake BBA in a tank as an active bloom, this is not true.
I have a little BBA on some wood here or there. But not on the plants.
I could work and get rid of any visible trace, but it's not an issue.

If it covers plants, gets on equipment, covers the wood, then yes, I have an issue.

Point is, it's easy to manage and my labor does not go without some good return. I also have plenty of algae eaters and take care of the tank in a timely manner.

So algae is not much of an issue. 
Good plant growth is my concern, which if I am not mistaken, is also your goal when you started this hobby. Do not get side tracked with algae.

Good CO2 management, focus there. 
Also, respiration of fish: is both O2 and CO2.

So more O2/good surface movement(but not breaking the surface) is key. It'll provide more wiggle room. Also, even at low light, the CO2 will help a great deal and provide much more wiggle room for new folks.

More light= harder to maintain that threshold between gassing livestock/stressing them, vs no algae and good plant growth. If you am fairly good and have 1-4 years in, then high light etc might be your can O worms. 

But for most goals, low light with good CO2, cooler temps if the fish can handle it, good current etc, clean the filters often, do good sized water changes etc, that's where it is at.

Here's another good article:

http://www.tropica.com/en/tropica-abc/basic-knowledge/co2-and-light.aspx


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## shinycard255 (Sep 15, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/kh-ph-co2-chart.html
> 
> http://www.tropica.com/en/tropica-abc/basic-knowledge/co2-and-light.aspx


These links were a little confusing until I read the Practical Fishkeeping article you posted and it all makes sense. I can see how PH and KH play a key role and how to figure out how much CO2 I need for my tank parameters. With this new set of information, I will go home tonight and post some test results from my tank.

Now when testing for PH, do I test the water straight out of my tank with CO2 concentration in it, or do I get a cup and let it sit out for 24 hours before testing?



plantbrain said:


> If you correct the initial cause(say poor CO2) for the BBA bloom(new BBA growth all over the place, often smothering things fairly quick(1-3 weeks), you still will have adult old BBA covering things. It will NOT die by correcting to good CO2.
> 
> BBA will also grow fine in very low light.
> 
> ...


I've read over this part a few times already and can see you stressing on how important it is to watching how the plants react to anything you do in the tank. 

Circulation is also another thing, which I am hoping to have figured out, but only time will tell. 

I also have a ton of surface movement without breaking the surface (powerhead and filter output are both pointed up towards the surface).

If there ever is any BBA on plants, it's always on the old leaves and not the new ones. Mostly on my Anubias, Amazon Sword, and Ludwigia Red (the older leaves)


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

houseofcards said:


> I don't disagree that if you have BBA highlight can make it worse/harder to control, but co2 isn't always the problem. There are plenty of folks here that run co2 until there fish are gassed and they still have BBA. I've seen BBA grow in all tank lit conditions. I've seen BBA growing in an indoor koi pond with no direct light. How 'bout all those dim-lit LFS tanks.


I am glad to see this comment, because it's hard to digest the message that algae issues can be resolved largely by having good CO2 levels/flow/etc - it's just not true in all cases.

On my tank, I had my CO2 running steady 24/7 with massive flow and a high enough levels to kill off some fish and all the invertebrates - a bright yellow DC! That was a clean restart of the entire tank, and included some aggressive Excel use and constant pruning etc. The BBA came back and took over the tank within a couple of months.


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

Dave-H said:


> Looking at this thread and all the dogmatic answers makes me SO glad I quit CO2 and went back to low-tech. I'm sure that there is some good information here, but my tank is finally algae free, lush, and green and I am pretty happy!
> 
> still trying to sell my CO2 setup, though!


Couldn't you still inject CO2 on your low tech setup? I bet you would still see benefit. Why not use your CO2 since you have it or, until you can sell it.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

I keep thinking about doing that (starting up the CO2), but there is no algae and the plants are beautiful so the only effect would be that the plants might grow faster. I don't need any extra maintenance so I am just leaving it as is and trying to sell the CO2 system.

Actually, I'm sort of leaning the other way lately. I am going for low maintenance, low tech, low light and seeing how easy this can be! My technique is to use easy plants, hardy fish, and lots of diversity (snails, shrimp, frog, loaches, etc). For the last few months I've done maintenance exactly 1 time per month (huge w/c/) and the tank is ship shape!!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Dave-H said:


> I am glad to see this comment, because it's hard to digest the message that algae issues can be resolved largely by having good CO2 levels/flow/etc - it's just not true in all cases.


I've yet to see otherwise in 20 years.




> On my tank, I had my CO2 running steady 24/7 with massive flow and a high enough levels to kill off some fish and all the invertebrates - a bright yellow DC! That was a clean restart of the entire tank, and included some aggressive Excel use and constant pruning etc. The BBA came back and took over the tank within a couple of months.


You can gas the fish with poor O2 and low CO2.
Does not imply there was ample CO2 for the plants, or that other factors were not accounted for.

To get a reference tank, you must have mastery of the control in any test, otherwise you have no methods comparison. A tank without BBA being an issue is a reference tank. 

Running CO2 24/7 means you add more stress to the livestock than adding it only during the light period. There's no good reason to do this, timers are 5$.
Adding CO2 only when the plants are growing (during the light cycle) means the plants will add more O2, so you have more buffer/wiggle room with CO2.

Drop checkers are not the best method to measure, gauge CO2.
I have several tanks and the CO2 ppm is all over the place.
I made CO2 reference solutions to check as well as KH reference solutions.

I also measured O2 and changed all my filters over that produced 1-2 ppm higher O2. Cooler temps also make it easier to keep O2 higher and slows plant growth. Which makes adding CO2 even easier.

Even my 180 which is about 83-84F, has 70 ppm of CO2 after 1-2 hours.
Amano shrimp likely help, SAE's definitely help.

When starting a new tank, I do more water changes and care till things grow in. for some client's, I'm only able to do this once a week. So they might get a little algae in the start up phase. But I knock it back and then a couple of weeks later, things are fine. If the tank is at home, then I can take better care of things in the new tank start up.

I think given your goal, you should stick with it.
If the CO2 algae thing is a real monkey on your back, it'll be waiting for you to master it. A lot of folks have to beat this thing. Even if your goal is different

Just the way some of us are.

Client tanks are very instructional for myself, they illustrate what goes wrong even with good care when the CO2 tank runs out mid week. How plants and algae respond. Corrective measures to fix things thereafter.
I think you'd be best off adding CO2 to the low light tank given your goal. You would end up with maybe 3-4x the growth rate and be able to keep most all plant species together.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

I see you give this advice over and over, but the fact that you won't even consider that there might be exceptional cases seems to be a bit too rigid of a mindset to me. I don't want CO2 in my low light tank, like I said, and the fact that you haven't seen something in 20 years doesn't mean it isn't true.

Respectfully, your advice didn't work for me and it's not clear to me that it's 'fact' that CO2 correlates so closely to algae.


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## james1542 (Sep 8, 2011)

Thanks for all the info. A) So I'm lead to belive BBA colonizes when CO2 is deficient or when it's levels are inconsistent. B)Also if the plants are growing and doing well, then there will be no black brush algae colonizing. From my encounters with BBA, I could see both of those hypotheses being true.

A few general observations: In a tank with no supplemental carbon and very high light, I had no BBA until I did water changes with city tap water. The more water changes I did, the more this stuff would colonize, but if used RO water, I had no more colonizing. Based on what I've read here, I would imagine the tap water was high in CO2, and the temporary rise in CO2 spurred the BBA colonization.

Regarding B) generally when the plants are growing really well, the BBA is not spreading. Now is this because the CO2 levels, and/or perhaps the tank conditions are stable and therefore the stimuli for BBA to colonize are not there, or is there some sort of allelopathic effect that is only generated by growing plants that keeps the algae from colonizing? I was reading through an awful planted tank book a few months ago, and that was one of the nice sentimental points the book made (healthy plants will produce allelopathic chemicals that inhibit algae), which I have not seen talked about much outside that book. Since the book had so much misinformation I have to think that Idea could be bogus as well. 

Finally my last mixed question/statement. Would the build up of CO2 at night, if you run it 24/7, promote BBA colonization?

Oh one more, has anyone looked into the life cycle of the BBA? Anyone know the Latin name? I'm guessing there are some spores being exchanged, and probably some environmental cues that trigger their development and release? If we knew exactly how this stuff operated we would have a much better chance not getting it in the first place.


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## Aquaticz (Dec 26, 2009)

hmmmmm check out Nicko's flow thread & filter thread. You might think diffrently.

someone probably already said this but..... turn off your equipment before doing the excel kill BBA thing. best to use a syringe and douse offending areas very slowly and limit hand/arm movement.
let it stand for 10 -15 min. Then do WC - add macro ferts- excel & micos - If you do it right ....ut will be all gone in less than 2 weeks. However heed the CO2 warnings - get a drop checker and a good needle valve ( not a clippard - go for a NV-55) GLA sells them.

HTH


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Dave-H said:


> ..and it's not clear to me that it's 'fact' that CO2 correlates so closely to algae.


Yes it's way to general. This is 'The Planted tank' not 'The *Heavily* Planted Tank. The CO2 will only buy you so much since it's directly related to plant mass. Of course light, waste load and other factors are at play, but I see so much advice to correct CO2 before anyone even sees the OP's tank. Why does CO2 work at all. The plants increase uptake and get rid of nh3, etc in the WC. It's not an Algaecide like the way Excel is used. It needs good plant mass to be effective.


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## shinycard255 (Sep 15, 2011)

So I did my PH and KH tests finally...

PH 6.8
KH 11

So then based off the chart here, I want to shoot for around 50ppm of CO2 in the tank. Is that correct?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Dave-H said:


> I see you give this advice over and over, but the fact that you won't even consider that there might be exceptional cases seems to be a bit too rigid of a mindset to me. I don't want CO2 in my low light tank, like I said, and the fact that you haven't seen something in 20 years doesn't mean it isn't true.
> 
> Respectfully, your advice didn't work for me and it's not clear to me that it's 'fact' that CO2 correlates so closely to algae.


Oh, I've more than considered exceptional cases.

I did in fact say there are other factors that lead to long term algae issues, current, filtration, general care, if you have some hypothesis you'd like to pose that says X causes BBA, I'm all ears.

Every single case I've addressed for myself and others in the last 20 years have all been, without a single exception, due to some type of CO2 issue.
We are talking well past 100 tanks. 

I never said there are not exceptions.

Try messing with your CO2 and see if you get algae then. If you want it to happened even faster, add a lot of light. Drop checkers have many issues, if I used them and thought they were accurate, all my tanks would also have algae.

Yes, I'll get algae in tanks time to time. But I can beat them back pretty well. And I've gotten good enough to induce the algae and then go back and test to see if I can get rid of it. GDA is the only one I cannot induce easily. Most any other is pretty easy to do.

I think most assume they maxed their CO2 levels, they gas their fish. But they rarely go slow and progressive in small incremental adjustments, then carefully watch. Watch the plants and..the new algae growth. This is what I was telling Shineycard255.

Like most hobbyists, we are impatient.
If we adjust the cO2 slow and progressive, notch by notch on a good needle valve, make sure we have good current, clean the tank often, keep up on things routinely, use less, not more light, then algae is not much of threat.

A recent example:
1.2 W/gal of Tek T5's at 36" from the gloss. About 30 umols.










Another:









This is complete control over algae in such tanks.
Even with minimal plant biomass, eg, not just tanks full of stems. 
Both tanks got a little BBA.
Typically about the 3-5th week in and both cases where due to........yep, CO2. The new growth stopped completely after careful tweaking.

But the old BBA? It stayed awhile.
I killed it with a big water change, sprayed the wood with excel, done.
In the larger Gloss tank, I have some BBA on the rocks, but it's never gone farther, and I've spot treated here and there, it's slowly dying off. 

Older leaves the plant has given up on also get BBA.
After a big hack on my Starougyne lawn in my 180, the anemic whitish shaded leaves are suddenly exposed after trimming the tops. 
Those leaves are not adapted to the high sudden light. The plant responds by not "defending them". A small amount of BBA covers a few leaves after 2-3 weeks till the new growth buries the BBA leaves and they decay away as new growth piles on.

In my 120 Gallon, there's a few short tufts of BBA on some spots of the wood that are below the water change line(roughly 70% in that tank).
The CO2 is obviously plenty good for any plant that's added in there, but BBA still will slowly grow. Why?

It cannot be due to the CO2, so I'd say there are exceptions also.
However, the BBA is so minor, it's hardly problematic, but it is there.

Nuisance algae where it causes real issues are/is due to CO2 however. I've yet to see otherwise. One might argue that new tank start ups are prone to BBA or other species more than any other tank, it might be due to new tank CO2 demand is not yet dialed in. But it could be due to something else.

I've fixed many friends, club members BBA issues and been hired to fix such issues. Some have taken a few years to figure out some things, some only a few days. Many try everything else, then finally after exhausting every other cure all, come back.

I was that guy myself.:tongue::wink:
Even then, I doubted for years and years.
Maybe I'm just lucky 100 out of 100 times?
Maybe, it's possible. But I've never relied much on luck.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Personally I feel Co2 is part of it, but is it the biggest part of keeping BBA and other algae away? Why is the water change so essential to keeping things pristine? Pretty simple to me your diluting any nitro organic decay, but at the same time your creating fluxing co2 levels are you not? If you increase water changes to every day are you going to get more algae because of the constant co2 flux. I don't think so.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

james1542 said:


> Thanks for all the info. A) So I'm lead to belive BBA colonizes when CO2 is deficient or when it's levels are inconsistent. B)Also if the plants are growing and doing well, then there will be no black brush algae colonizing. From my encounters with BBA, I could see both of those hypotheses being true.


Yep I'd agree with that.



> A few general observations: In a tank with no supplemental carbon and very high light, I had no BBA until I did water changes with city tap water. The more water changes I did, the more this stuff would colonize, but if used RO water, I had no more colonizing. Based on what I've read here, I would imagine the tap water was high in CO2, and the temporary rise in CO2 spurred the BBA colonization.


Yep, I'd agree with that also.
What might you do to test to make sure?
Degas the tap water really well, then use that for water changes by slow exchange without exposing the plants to air(this will quickly supply them with a lot of CO2 from the air exchange).

You might even try this without degassing the tap water.

Then see if you get BBA.

If not, and then you repeat the test while exposing the plants to air, then you have a a much much more likely culprit.

Plants are like a factory ina way. If you sudden increase production say 10X faster, but do not account for downstream production or it's justa blast through the factory, this upsets the entire assembly line.

It takes awhile to get things back in order.

Plant's enzymes have trouble readjusting and this seems to give the algae a signal( no clue how), maybe the sudden rapid change in CO2 is a good signal itself?

Like your tank and Dave's non CO2 tank, the plants did in fact adapt to LOW CO2. They grow, just slower. when you suddenly add a lot of CO2, this throws everything into Chaos for the plants.

If you live in a stream or lake/pond etc, and suddenly there's a large increase in CO2.........this means there's likely nutrients along with that CO2 since it's likely the CO2 is from organic decaying matter that runoff added from the valley/watershed around the water. Not a bad cue to start growing in a good spot if you are an alga.

Better than say O2 levels, or nutrient levels. But those likely play some role also.

Still, we find nice plants growing well in natural systems where the CO2 is stable. These spring fed systems have been in wonderful shape with plants for 500 years in some cases in Florida(The priest took notes that went with Ponce de Leon in his search of the fountain of youth in Florida). Those same springs still, have lush beds of aquatic plants.



> Regarding B) generally when the plants are growing really well, the BBA is not spreading. Now is this because the CO2 levels, and/or perhaps the tank conditions are stable and therefore the stimuli for BBA to colonize are not there, or is there some sort of allelopathic effect that is only generated by growing plants that keeps the algae from colonizing? I was reading through an awful planted tank book a few months ago, and that was one of the nice sentimental points the book made (healthy plants will produce allelopathic chemicals that inhibit algae), which I have not seen talked about much outside that book. Since the book had so much misinformation I have to think that Idea could be bogus as well.


I refuted this a few times, so did Ole, you can search for more on allelopathy. I provided a few methods to test for controls. Also, what sitb likelihood that all 400+ species/types of aquatic plants all produce the same chemical cocktail that works on all algae equally in many tanks with many different biomass and growth rates?

A few Billion to one might be generous odds. And that's just one of the issues with the observation.



> Finally my last mixed question/statement. Would the build up of CO2 at night, if you run it 24/7, promote BBA colonization?
> 
> Oh one more, has anyone looked into the life cycle of the BBA? Anyone know the Latin name? I'm guessing there are some spores being exchanged, and probably some environmental cues that trigger their development and release? If we knew exactly how this stuff operated we would have a much better chance not getting it in the first place.


I doubt that BBA is ever CO2 limited, nor any algae for that matter.
Plants? Certainly, this is very very common. Like palnts, the algae only use CO2 during the day time, maybe a few minutes after sunset, but not much more than few minutes after.

Audouinella is the genus.

Common in streams with 5-10 ppm of CO2(Sheath and Wehr Freshwater Algae of North America, 2003).

You can find plenty on this topic on google.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

houseofcards said:


> Personally I feel Co2 is part of it, but is it the biggest part of keeping BBA and other algae away? Why is the water change so essential to keeping things pristine? Pretty simple to me your diluting any nitro organic decay, but at the same time your creating fluxing co2 levels are you not? If you increase water changes to every day are you going to get more algae because of the constant co2 flux. I don't think so.


The control for that is simple:" use activated carbon(AC), same for allelopathic chemicals, add AC. This removes those organic chemicals effectively.

Do we see less BBA in tanks where they use AC? Purigen?
Etc.........

You can also add organic forms of N, say more fish, more fish food etc. Or add NH4, say urea or NH4Cl.

I've done it and postulated a long time ago that NH4 was a potential inducer for Green water. But I was able later to add 0.8 ppm per day of NH4Cl without any Green water or algae blooms.

I tried fish loading, progressively adding more and more bait minnows till I got a crash, GW, followed by staghorn and finally some BBA. About 100 3" bait minnows ina 25 Gal tank with foreground rug plants only. A stemy planted tank would require a lot of fish for this to occur.

I think works more like this:
If you switch to Daily water changes then this becomes more stable(CO2).
If you do it say one day a week, then it's less stable. Daily water changes works pretty well with CO2. Dose after etc, we do this a lot when there are "issues" and it does tend to fix many "issues". Folks experience excellent growth post water change day.

It's those days in between that cause issues if the CO2 is poor.

I do 2x a week for some tanks, once a week for others, once a month for some. Generally based on how much pruning/moving weeds around I do and light umols. Fish loads are quite large for all 3 tanks. 
CO2/very high light tank has the CO2 around 55ppm. A couple of Hair algae issues. 
CO2/mid light(180) has CO2 about 70 ppm. Virtually no issues.
CO2/low light 70 Gal, no issues, CO2 is about 50ppm.
O2 is 7 ppm to about 9.5 ppm depending on time of day.

Every so often, the CO2 will run out and I'll not notice or catch it for 1-3 days etc. Plants seem okay with this overall, algae not an issue, if you go a week etc, then? 

The other issue I had when using disc and some diffusers: they did not add enough CO2 in the start of the day cycle. If i measured later in the day, I had ample CO2, if I measured every 15 min from light= 0, till light on for 2 hours, I had much less.

In other tanks, the built in overflows degassed too much to keep up with the CO2 delivery system. I would gas fish or not have enough CO2, very hard to balance that. Adding a bean animal or other type of prefilter made this issue go away.

Still, all these things tend to get back to CO2. It's(CO2) not a simple thing.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I agree with the comments above. Co2 is not a simple thing since I've been keeping track of it with a co2 sensor.

CO2 is not an algaecide. It's just that you create conditions in your tank to cause the nasty hairy BBa growth. It's always around in some form or another. You'd want invisible form. So keep the co2 stable and appropriate to your light levels.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## niko (Mar 8, 2006)

My take on BBA is that organics cause it. The tank is dirty although it may look clear as a mountain stream. Maybe I missed it but in 4 pages of posts there was only one mentioning of the filter (A Fluval 406 on this 60 gallon tank). No note what is in the filter.

Two experiences about successfuly getting rid of BBA. 

Tank 1 - made me think organics cause BBA.
Tank 2 - made me think good plant growth stops BBA.

*Tank 1:*
160 gallon tank.
About 50 3" fish (Black Halfbeaks, wild). 
No CO2. 
2 large size Eheims (4 gallon volume each) but full of crappy biomedia that never looked well colonized.
No mechanical filtration.
No BBA.

One day - an explosion of BBA. Found a few dead fish. Removed fish, changed 30% water every other day for 10 days. Added mechanical filtration. BBA went away completely. Removed mechanical filter.

After a few days - a new BBA explosion. Found dead fish again. Turns out fish were getting territorial with age. When I didn't feed them they got really nasty with each other to the point of killing. Changed water again - 30% every other day. Ran mechanical filter again. Fed fish well but never let food linger in the water or fall to the bottom. BBA went away after about 5 such water changes.

Played this game 3 or 4 more times until all but 1 fish was left in the tank. Every time the water changes got rid of the BBA. The mechanical filter must have only helped. 

_*Conclusion:*_Got the notion that decaying matter causes BBA. And the remainings of that matter maybe minor but they support the BBA once it appears.


*Tank 2:*
High light.
High CO2. 
65 gallon tank.
Prunning 1 to 2 handfuls every week for years.

Negligible amount of BBA + Clado for years. Up and down but never taking over in a too noticeable way. 

Some of the BBA was forever on top of the sponge of the CO2 reactor (where the CO2 microbubbles come out).

Filter is ridiculous - AquaClear. No mechanical filtration. Volume of biomedia is about a pint and a half. Ridiculous. Part of the problem. Or so I thought.

Got sick of constantly present BBA + Clado and never really figuring out how to make to deal with them. Excel never helped, just slightly reduced Clado growth and killed Valisnerias. Embarked on a war:

Vacuumed bottom for a few weeks to remove organics. Bottom stayed clean after that. BBA + Clado still there.

Reduced N and P. Plants slowed growth. Clado gone. BBA - same.

Ran out of CSM - got Fluorish this time. Plants started growing very well despite lower N and P. Figured out old Trace mix was too old. Tank looks like new now, a month later. BBA gone. Discus spawned first time ever. 

Introduced new, heavy BBA with some Anubias - within 2 weeks that BBA is now just tiny dots, going away too.

*Conclusion:*Got the notion organics are not the only culprit. Good plant growth does something to BBA.


*Overall:*

1. Clean your tank very well.
Filter must have good mechanical AND biological filtration. Good amount of biomedia (Aim for 10% of tank volume. Yes 10%. More if possible.). Good flow through the media at all times.

2. Make sure the plants grow well.
Not sure how that works in a non-CO2 tank especially if BBA is already looking like it looks on the pictures on page 1.

3. Animal that eats BBA for sure - Styphodon ornatus. A goby that can completely clear a 3 sq. inches of BBA in 2-3 days and not harm even fine new Java Moss leaves. Problem with it - it likes to clean one single area and nothing else.:biggrin:


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I've been saying that in almost every post. 



houseofcards said:


> ...I*t's not an Algaecide like the way Excel is used.* It needs good plant mass to be effective.


But I do feel it's treated that way here. It's the first remedy even before the OP shows pics or even describes his/her setup.

Startup tanks and tanks that are old have two things in common. They both have uncontested organic waste in the water column that eventually breaks down into ammonia and they both are algae targets. If you look at new tanks, even the smallest bit of ammonia causes problems that's why the bio-filter gap has to be bridged with A/C, Purigen, Seeding, Large Water Changes. 

Old tanks have a build up over time and even with all the water changes, etc. there is still a build up and eventually the tank is not sustainable. YMWV based on light, load, etc.


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## shinycard255 (Sep 15, 2011)

Update on my BBA situation

Excel spot treating seems to be working for now. I've also noticed that some of the BBA on my anubias is starting to turn red without any spot treating as well. I'm hoping more of it starts to die off. I'm assuming the die off has something to do with the change of flow in my tank I did about a week ago. The crypts that had some staghorn on them also don't have it anymore. Also, the little bits of hair algae are also gone.

Looks like everything is going good for now. As time goes on, I'll keep updating about my situation


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