# H. pinnatifida: how much potassium?



## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

I'm currently dosing 60+ppm of K weekly and it seems to have stopped the pinholes from forming. This seems really excessive.

For those who have grown Hygrophila pinnatifida, how much potassium did you have to dose to prevent K deficiency?


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## IiScaPeJuNkiEiI (Aug 7, 2013)

Never tried that particular Hygro unfortunately. But IME Hygros are Potassium PIGS. Whatever it takes to get rid of pin holes is what you dose. Overdosing Potassium won't really hurt anything anyways. Again IME....:icon_smil


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

I have never seen it without the pinholes in a high tech tank. I used to grow it in a low tech tank and it didn't show deficiency symptoms, but overall growth rate was quite slow.


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## greaser84 (Feb 2, 2014)

I don't have any pinnatifida but I do have some compacta, as you know are potassium hogs to the max. Other than a massive dosage of K2SO4 I've been making root tabs filled with dry K2SO4 and feeding the roots, I've noticed a big difference. You can try that see how it goes. I've got 5 compacta in a 20 gallon I dose 1 teaspoon of K2SO4 daily. Dang that's a lot hahaha


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Root tabs filled with K2SO4 works? How many tabs are you adding? That seems like an awful lot of tabs... But considering that I add so much already, those tabs would be spent quite quickly. :help:


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## kittenfish (Feb 6, 2014)

greaser84 said:


> I don't have any pinnatifida but I do have some compacta, as you know are potassium hogs to the max. Other than a massive dosage of K2SO4 I've been making root tabs filled with dry K2SO4 and feeding the roots, I've noticed a big difference. You can try that see how it goes. I've got 5 compacta in a 20 gallon I dose 1 teaspoon of K2SO4 daily. Dang that's a lot hahaha



So 266 ppm K per week? Did you arrive at this amount gradually or did you just decide to throw in a ton of K one day?


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## mistuhmarc (Oct 1, 2013)

I have H. Pinnatifida growing in my high tech 20 long. It's doesn't seem to have any pinholes, and I've just been dosing the EI liquid ferts that I have been using.


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## greaser84 (Feb 2, 2014)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> Root tabs filled with K2SO4 works? How many tabs are you adding? That seems like an awful lot of tabs... But considering that I add so much already, those tabs would be spent quite quickly. :help:


Sorry to get back to you so late, really busy at work today...I've definitely noticed a difference with the K2SO4 filled root tabs. My substrate* was* eco complete with a sand cap now its just mixed and packed down, despite the fact that I'm adding a ridiculous amount of potassium to the water column the roots mostly likely weren't getting too much potassium and regular osmoscote wasn't cutting it. I've been doing the homemade root tabs for about two months, the plants look happier, the only pinhole are occasionally on the bottom leaves that don't get light anyways, I have 5 plants lined up in the back, their roots are one giant rat's nest I put two or three tabs every other week, I agree they probably suck it up pretty quickly but for now I'm about 95% pinhole free, old growth is staying healthy and the algae has disappeared. If the pinnatifida is a heavy root feeder it may be worth a try. This particular tank is no doubt my nutrient hog tank, there is also about 20 water wisteria and about 100 frog bit. 



kittenfish said:


> So 266 ppm K per week? Did you arrive at this amount gradually or did you just decide to throw in a ton of K one day?


 I did this over about a 1-1.5 month period. I doubled my original amount gave it some time, I kept adding till my old growth stopped having pinholes. Its a lot but the fish don't care and the algae went away. It works so I'll keep doing it.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

So it appears that 60+ppm/week is insufficient. I'll be increasing it to 75ppm/week to see if that stops the K deficiency. So that's 5 tsp of K2SO4 for 55 gallons and the K in KH2PO4. I also think that the K deficiency is what's causing the algae on the margins of affected leaves.

Since I don't have a potassium test kit, does anyone know if the Hygrophila's are actually absorbing all of the K? On the bright side of things, none of my other plants show any signs of K deficiency.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Photos might help figure out if you've got a K issue. 60 ppm a week sounds on the high side.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

I thought that's a lot of K but apparent, H. pinnatifida disagrees and has a lot of holes to prove it.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

There are many issues that result in holes other than potassium. It is possible something else is causing the holes.

If you post a few close up photos it will help narrow down the possibilities or help confirm K deficiency.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

I have never had luck with Hygrophilia pinnatifida. It was the only plant that was getting pinholes in it so it's possible that it wasn't even a K issue anyway but I always assumed that since that's what it looked it. I had a few other Hygrophilia species in the tank also and they never showed any of the pinholes so it's possible that it was something else but I still tried raising the K dosing with no luck.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

I've added arrows to all the pinholes and leaf damage caused by the K deficiency. I may have missed one or two pinholes.
But anyway, it affects the older leaves first. Signs that it's suffering K deficiency even before pinholes form are algae on the edges of the leaves and curling of the leaf tips, as well as chlorosis, both localized and entire.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)




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## Default (Jan 10, 2014)

I found H. Pinnatifida rather trouble free. I have had it in a couple of tanks and the only thing I dosed/added fertilizer wise in those tanks were flourish comprehensive and iron - also some initial root tabs.
I found that they get holes and slowly die off once they don't get enough light.
I can only upload one pic at a time on mobile, so here is my old high tech.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

The arrows are distracting, but that does look like typical potassium deficiency damage. 

Did the holes start in the new or the old leaves first? Where are they now? Did they move from old to new or new to old? Or did they just appear all over the plant at once?

Are any of the plants growing new leaves without holes?

How much potassium are you adding (grams/teaspoons/etc), how often, and how big is your tank?


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

Maybe something is blocking the uptake of potassium? Is this the only plant suffering from the pinholes?


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

PortalMasteryRy said:


> Maybe something is blocking the uptake of potassium? Is this the only plant suffering from the pinholes?


Like what? The only thing that I can think of is the excessive amounts of sulfate (SO4-) but that just doesn't make any chemical sense at all since the potassium is being adding in the form of K2SO4.

Bump:


Zapins said:


> Did the holes start in the new or the old leaves first? Where are they now? Did they move from old to new or new to old? Or did they just appear all over the plant at once?
> 
> Are any of the plants growing new leaves without holes?
> 
> How much potassium are you adding (grams/teaspoons/etc), how often, and how big is your tank?












Old leaves first. If I don't add K, it will then affect the new leaves as well but stunting usually occurs before the chlorosis and pinholes.

Currently dosing 5 tsp/week + KH2PO4 in a 55g tank. No KNO3.

Bump:


Default said:


> I found H. Pinnatifida rather trouble free. I have had it in a couple of tanks and the only thing I dosed/added fertilizer wise in those tanks were flourish comprehensive and iron - also some initial root tabs.
> I found that they get holes and slowly die off once they don't get enough light.


I thought it might have been a light issue, but that doesn't appear to be the case as even in very crowded areas in the shade, new side shoots don't have K deficiency unless I don't add potassium.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Dosing ~120ppm/week, the holes still occur. Increasing to 140ppm/week to see what happens.

Other fertilization parameters:
- NO3: 15ppm/week
- PO4: 14ppm/week

Would adding that much PO4 bind to K to form tri-potassium phosphate (K3PO4)? Maybe that's the problem since that's 42ppm of K bound to PO4. ???
It shouldn't bind since it's in solution, right?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

14 ppm PO4 is pretty high. Most people add 1-2 ppm a week and that is plenty (more than enough actually). In fact, I've rarely if ever seen a phosphate deficiency in a normal tank, I think it would be pretty hard to get one. I'd lower the PO4 dose down to normal ranges.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

I have GSA. If I lower phosphate, it explodes to large spots. This is probably due to adding CSM+B, ~2ppm of Fe/week.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

I think you may be adding too many fertilizers in general. Plants should not normally need such high levels to live healthiky. Why not dose as recommended for EI? You are dosing several times more than EI recommends, which is already a lot. The damage may be a toxicity which is weakening the plants and allowing algae to take over.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

I've been having deficiencies in micronutrients. If I don't dose what I'm currently dosing, I get algae and Fe-deficient plants. I've never had a phosphate toxicity issue even dosing that much PO4.

Bump: I should also mention that I suspect H. pinna takes up more PO4 than other plants. I started another thread before asking if H. pinna was a phosphate hog because I started getting GSA and had to increase phosphate dosing to get rid of it. I was already dosing at a high level. However, GSA could have been due to adding more CSM+B and binding to PO4-.


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## limz_777 (Jun 29, 2005)

h .pinnatifida is one difficult plant , any updates ?


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

It's been less than a week since last update. At 140ppm weekly dosing of K, no new holes have formed.  However, I did do a major trimming of algae-infested and K-damaged leaves so it's too soon to tell if this is the right amount of potassium. Considering how much this plant needs, I suspect that this plant may naturally inhabit brackish waters because sea water contains massive amounts, 400ppm, of potassium.

I plan on doing a tolerance experiment to see if it's salt tolerant. If so, then the speculation may be accurate.


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## limz_777 (Jun 29, 2005)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> It's been less than a week since last update. At 140ppm weekly dosing of K, no new holes have formed. However, I did do a major trimming of algae-infested and K-damaged leaves so it's too soon to tell if this is the right amount of potassium. Considering how much this plant needs, I suspect that this plant may naturally inhabit brackish waters because sea water contains massive amounts, 400ppm, of potassium.
> 
> I plan on doing a tolerance experiment to see if it's salt tolerant. If so, then the speculation may be accurate.


i seen a thread posted before , he didnt mention its brackish water , here's the link http://www.aquascapingworld.com/threads/wild-collection-hygrophila-pinnatifida.4544/


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

limz_777 said:


> i seen a thread posted before , he didnt mention its brackish water , here's the link http://www.aquascapingworld.com/threads/wild-collection-hygrophila-pinnatifida.4544/


I read that before. Maybe this plant just needs super-enriched substrates.


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## Mariostg (Sep 6, 2014)

Interesting. I bought this plant after having seen it there http://tropica.com/en/plants/plantdetails/4486/4486. Most of it is all dead. Same symptoms as described in this thread. I wish it was mentionned it is brackish water if it really is.


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## limz_777 (Jun 29, 2005)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> I read that before. Maybe this plant just needs super-enriched substrates.


maybe , from the pics , the mature leaves look really thick , btw what temps are you planting at ? in substrate or on rocks ?


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Temps 72F-78F.
Substrate is Floramax.


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## agro (Nov 29, 2013)

Have some in hightech, believed it was a pretty small plant until i saw one about 20" at lfs, had mine for many months and just recently needed a trim for height. It's a healthy plant with runners going all around, only prob is a bit of hair algea on older growth.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

140ppm K/week is _almost_ sufficient. There's still some new pinholes.

Also, considering how much K is being added, there's a possible Mg deficiency occurring with the older leaves. Weekly Mg dosing will be increased significantly from 2.4ppm/wk to 7ppm/wk to see if this results in improved health and growth.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

150+ppm of K is still not sufficient.

Also, new leaflets are darker brown and this may be due to increased Mg, Ca, or P. Not certain which since I increased all three quite significantly.

Ca: 20-30ppm
Mg: 14-20ppm
P: 20+ppm


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

This sounds all too familiar to me. I have hygro compact, polysperma and I had polysperma tiger.

The compact showed the worse of the pinholes. I did exactly what you did and kept raising my dosage. At the end I was up to 75ppm a week of k and this is in a low tech no co2 or glut or excel.

Some how the pinholes never got better, leaves were smaller then they should have been and just growing poorly.

I eventually stopped dosing completely and did 2 50% wcs a week. Did this for about 2 months to finally reset everything back to 0. Phosphates literally took the entire 2 months to get back down to 1ppm.

Anyhow, I can't explain it but my hygro have never been better and its pinhole free. I also raised my lightbduribg this period. 24in above the substratr now. Its a finnex planted plus.

I feel something was blocking the uptake of k. Either way point being that I highly doubt its a k problem and would advice you to stop dosing as much.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

I have high light and CO2 so uptake of all nutrients will be significantly higher. It's possible that in your situation, the low light slows uptake down to a trickle. Having kept H. pinna in a low light tank without adding some K also resulted in deficiency but it took weeks of not dosing for that to happen. Growth was extremely slow as well.

Also, since adding more fertilizers has actually improved both growth and health of most of the plants, I don't think the issue is excessive dosing.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

philipraposo1982 said:


> This sounds all too familiar to me. I have hygro compact, polysperma and I had polysperma tiger.
> 
> The compact showed the worse of the pinholes. I did exactly what you did and kept raising my dosage. At the end I was up to 75ppm a week of k and this is in a low tech no co2 or glut or excel.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. 

Adding 150+ ppm is not normal. They are not using this much and it is accumulating over time. Actual levels are probably way higher. Many toxicities can block other nutrients from being absorbed and give you deficiency symptoms. Resetting the tank and using normal levels is a very good idea.


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

Yup, I believe this was the case previously in my tank. I had the same mind set as the op.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

There's a lot more plant mass than most people keep of H. pinna so more plant mass means more nutrient uptake. How much plant mass of H. pinna do you have?


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Looking back over my old tank logs, it appears that the moment H. pinnatifida was added, everything started going downhill on the same fertilizing regime. GSA started to appear as well as staghorn algae. What was previously the optimal dosing was no longer sufficient. Increasing dosages improved overall growth. However, as more H. pinna was propagated, the amount of fertz needed to maintain growth increased exponentially. More fertz --> more growth --> more fertz --> more growth.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

After testing my phosphate levels, it's through the roof. The test's upper limit is 10ppm so I'm way above that. I don't think I'll dose anything for quite some time and maintain weekly water changes.

Perhaps the excess sulfate is preventing uptake of potassium?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

How much CSM+B or micro nutrients are you adding? Iron?

To give you some idea of how much potassium is needed to maintain how much plant mass, in my 90g tank with 4x54w T5HO and CO2 injection I found that between 25-30 ppm of K _per week_ was needed to prevent potassium deficiency symptoms.

My old 90g Tank, needed 25-30 ppm K per week.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

So after a 75% WC, the PO4 is 3-4ppm. I added 24ppm in four days so 10ppm were taken up in four days. Where is all the P going? ~2.5ppm of PO4 of daily plant uptake? That sounds like a lot, doesn't it?

Does PO4 bind to Ca (and other ions) rendering it undetectable by the API phosphate test?

Bump:


Zapins said:


> How much CSM+B or micro nutrients are you adding? Iron?


I'm adding 1/4 tsp daily, 0.34ppm of Fe.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> So after a 75% WC, the PO4 is 3-4ppm. I added 24ppm in four days so 10ppm were taken up in four days. Where is all the P going? ~2.5ppm of PO4 of daily plant uptake? That sounds like a lot, doesn't it?
> 
> Does PO4 bind to Ca (and other ions) rendering it undetectable by the API phosphate test?
> 
> ...


If I was a betting man I'd say this is what is causing the problem. A mild trace toxicity. It also makes sense why you've been seeing some reduction in symptoms the more you add other fertilizers. Generally toxicoty decreases the more other nutrients are in the water, particularly the more calcium there is in the water, though other ions would probably do the same thing. 

I'd cut way back on the traces. Don't add more than about 0.7 ppm iron per week total.


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## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

I have that plant in a low tech and high tech environment. The plant in a low tech medium light with no CO2 is absolutely smashing it. Growth is very high. High tech, slow.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Zapins said:


> If I was a betting man I'd say this is what is causing the problem. A mild trace toxicity. It also makes sense why you've been seeing some reduction in symptoms the more you add other fertilizers. Generally toxicoty decreases the more other nutrients are in the water, particularly the more calcium there is in the water, though other ions would probably do the same thing.
> 
> I'd cut way back on the traces. Don't add more than about 0.7 ppm iron per week total.


I strongly doubt this is the case. I was dosing 1ppm/wk of Fe (CSM+B) and plants weren't doing well, mostly stunted. The moment I doubled it, all plants grew better and red plants started turning red. I actually still think there's a micronutrient deficiency as certain plants have algae (appears to be diatoms) growing on the older leaves. I plan on doubling micros to 1/2 tsp/daily, 4.7pm of Fe/wk.

H. pinna also takes up a lot more Ca than other plants. (Tap GH is ~2.) If I don't dose Ca, new leaves eventually become small, twisted, and stunted. This happens to the Rotalas as well. The moment I add Ca, this symptom disappears quickly.

If you've ever grown this plant, it's much different than the other Hygrophila's. Submersed weight is just as heavy as emersed weight, like it doesn't change the growth structure just because it's under water.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Perhaps using a bag of each fertilizer per day will solve the plant problems. 

I will wait for your results.


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## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

zapins said:


> perhaps using a bag of each fertilizer per day will solve the plant problems.
> 
> i will wait for your results.


lol


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

Zapins said:


> Perhaps using a bag of each fertilizer per day will solve the plant problems.
> 
> I will wait for your results.


haa... I wonder how high levels can one dose before water becomes brackish from high Tds


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Xiaozhuang said:


> haa... I wonder how high levels can one dose before water becomes brackish from high Tds


Brackish means salt water mixed with fresh water.


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

* dissolved aquarium fertilizers are also salts that affect salinity, which is the measure of all dissolved salts, not just sodium chloride. And brackish water is just when you have a certain percentage weight by salt content


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## limz_777 (Jun 29, 2005)

Okedokey said:


> I have that plant in a low tech and high tech environment. The plant in a low tech medium light with no CO2 is absolutely smashing it. Growth is very high. High tech, slow.


spec of your set-up , dosing ?


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## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

In my sig for dosing EI for both tanks - low tech is manual. low tech has 2 x T8 fluoros, no co2 EI dosing.


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## Positron (Jul 22, 2013)

My H. pinnatifida constantly looked like this until a few weeks ago. It was the only plant in the dang tank that had little needle holes all over it. What I did to help drastically:

Increase K+ dosage by 4 ppm a week to a total of 25 ppm
Eliminate Mn dosage from Equilibrium and a wacky trace mix I made with too much MnSO4.
Simply use CSM +B at .15 ppm 3x a week and .2 ppm DTPA 11% iron 3x a week.
Make sure every metal you put into the tank is at least chelated with EDTA

Extremely high Mn causes this in this plant I believe. Google "Mn toxicity plants." Small, scattered necrotic pinholes are a hallmark of Mn Toxicity in terrestrial plants. Since I've lowered Mn some of my other plants have exhibited better, more consistent growth. More consistent growth because I think Mn +2 was messing with Ca +2 uptake.

I wish I could show you a picture, but it's dark in my tank. If I remember tomorrow I'll show how the new growth has no holes and is a bit reddish/bronze similar to how Default's plants look on page 2 of this thread.


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## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

Positron said:


> My H. pinnatifida constantly looked like this until a few weeks ago. It was the only plant in the dang tank that had little needle holes all over it. What I did to help drastically:
> 
> Increase K+ dosage by 4 ppm a week to a total of 25 ppm
> Eliminate Mn dosage from Equilibrium and a wacky trace mix I made with too much MnSO4.
> ...


Aquatic plants don't often represent the same levels of response to toxicity as do terrestrial plants. I would be very surprised if Mn was at toxic levels.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was a Mn toxicity that affected Positron's plants. It is quite possible. Trace toxicity is a major problem that is often not recognized for what it is in the hobby.


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## Positron (Jul 22, 2013)

Here is the picture of H. Pintafolia. It's hard to see because I'm using a crappy iphone, but notice the older, longer leaves. They are full of pinholes. The newer growth progressively has less holes and the newest has none plus is more red/bronze.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Positron said:


> Here is the picture of H. Pintafolia. It's hard to see because I'm using a crappy iphone, but notice the older, longer leaves. They are full of pinholes. The newer growth progressively has less holes and the newest has none plus is more red/bronze.
> 
> View attachment 403897


K deficiency affects older leaves first; new growth will not be pock-marked.
Also, the reddish coloration is normal and it darkens to green as it matures. So I doubt you have a Mn toxicity or any sort of toxicity for that matter.

---------
I should clarify that I assume a K deficiency the moment I see any kind of pinholes. That's when I increase K by 14ppm to the weekly dosage. However, the pinholes are often very minor and often on the lower portions of the plants receiving the least amount of light.

Observation: pinholes in the lower portion of the plant, receiving the lowest light.

Assumptions: 1) K deficiency, or 2) low light causes pinholes (unlikely)

However: it's also very possible that because there is very little flow around the bottom area, it's simply not getting nutrients, thus the bottoms are easily be affected. If this is true, then improving flow to these areas should prevent pinholes in the lower portions of the plant.


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## Positron (Jul 22, 2013)

It's the likely assumption to think that when you see pinholes like that to think potassium. Makes logical sense, but does adding 200 ppm of K+ a week seem like a logical answer? There are others on here that grow this plant in much less. Why do you think your plants require this much K+ ?

Flow might be an issue. I'd fiddle with the flow before adding any more K+. In fact I'd cut K dosage to 30ppm a week and do a 90% water change right now. You simply have too much stuff in there that would never be encountered in a freshwater environment. 200 ppm of K (More is gonna be in your tank after a few weeks like 500 ppm) is brackish water plain and simple. 

Your throwing off the ionic balance (cations) of the entire tank. I don't see how Ca, Mg, K, Na, Fe, Mn can play nicely here.


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## limz_777 (Jun 29, 2005)

Positron said:


> Here is the picture of H. Pintafolia. It's hard to see because I'm using a crappy iphone, but notice the older, longer leaves. They are full of pinholes. The newer growth progressively has less holes and the newest has none plus is more red/bronze.
> 
> View attachment 403897


is it growing side shoots ?


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

I will state it again, had issues with severe pin holes in my hygros. I have 4; compact, pinna, angustifolia, polysperma.

Was dosing up near 100ppm a week at one point only to notice the same problem persist.

Literally stopped dosing for 1-2 months and now all my plants are hole free. I was doing 2 huge wcs a week to reset everything. The more I removed of the ferts the better my plants did. My hygro compact looks near perfect.

I also used to lose a ton of polysperma leaves during the week. Now nothing.

I can't tell you why or what feet was causing the toxicity / block, but it was happening and the more I added the worse things got.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Now that I'm testing phosphates, it doesn't drop very much throughout the week. So this leaves me to believe the uptake is not as fast as I previously calculated (2.5ppm/day) or that the massive amounts O+ I placed in the substrate 6 months ago is still leaching it (which very possible).

Also, the water has been ever so slightly cloudy for a couple of months. So I suspect that the excess PO4 is binding with some of the metals.

Since I dosed with K2SO4, CaSO4, and MgSO4, it's a lot of SO4 in the water column, 60+ppm/week, 100+ppm in the water column. Will excessive SO4 interfere with other nutrient uptake?


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## Positron (Jul 22, 2013)

limz_777 said:


> is it growing side shoots ?


 Yes it is, like crazy. I just trimmed most of the side shoots off. The plant started to take over the left side of my tank. Strangling out my s. repens.

Bump:


philipraposo1982 said:


> I will state it again, had issues with severe pin holes in my hygros. I have 4; compact, pinna, angustifolia, polysperma.
> 
> Was dosing up near 100ppm a week at one point only to notice the same problem persist.
> 
> ...


 Same experience here. 

What I used to dose weekly:
60-75 Par to substrate 10 hours a day
20 ppm no2 a week (with lots of feeding)
5ish ppm po4
40 ppm k+
upwards of 3ppm csm +b and another 2 or 3 ppm 11% dtpa iron
2 ppm Ca
.5 ppm Mg 
40+ ppm co2

things weren't good

Now I dose:
60-75 Par to substrate 10 hours a day
5 ppm no2 a week (no2 stays the same throughout the week with heavy feeding. I dose the 5ppm no2 after a water change to boost concentration)
3ppm po4 a week
20-25 ppm a week of K+
.45 ppm a week of csm +b and .6 ppm of 11% dtpa iron
4 ppm Ca
1 ppm Mg
20-25 ppm of co2

The gH in my tank is about 3-4
Kh is 1.75-2
pH with lights on and co2 full blast is 6.3-6.35

Everything grows much much better. The fish are happier too and reproduce like crazy. Remember, too low of a pH stifles Ca, Mg and K+ uptake while increases trace uptake by a large amount.

http://www.firstrays.com/Pictures/pH_and_nutrient_availability.gif

Your H. pinnatifida is suffering from a deficiency induced by some type of toxicity I think. Too much so4, too much K+, too much traces, too much everything. It's impossible to say what is blocking what.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Update
My H. pinna was obliterated like it was the victim of a US drone strike. Pinholes, severe chlorosis and necrosis everywhere, including very slow growth. Thus, limiting K does not prevent K deficiency.

But one thing did help it recover: increasing the initial concentration of potassium in solution caused it to bounce back. New growth is quick and healthy. So dosing 50ppm of K per week results in pinholes but dosing 50ppm initially and keeping it there does not. Thus, the concentration appears to matter more than the total amount added per week.

If anyone else can independently confirm this, that would support this observation. FYI: I'm using an inert substrate, Floramax/Ecocomplete, and only dosing via water column.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

I now suspect that the severe potassium deficiencies I've experienced numerous times in the past year are due to micronutrient excess. I suspect that certain metals are destroying, blocking, or inactivating the potassium uptake channels thereby leading to a potassium deficiency. 

I've noted the following improvements in growth:
1. Adding excessive amounts of K (100+ppm/week) reduced, but not eliminated, the pinholes, and improved growth.
2. Adding higher amounts of Ca and Mg improved growth, reduced pinholes.
3. Increasing light intensity reduced pinholes.

Increased concentrations of K, Ca, and Mg reduced the deficiency due to competition for these channels. More of these cations crowds out the other metal cations, which prevents them from damaging, blocking, or inactivating the channels. Increased light intensity increases nutrient uptake, thereby reducing the concentration of metals in the water column.

There are some assertions that low CO2 results in K-deficiency. If my above suspicions are correct, then the reason is that low CO2 results in lowered nutrient uptake, which results in a higher concentration of metals which affect the potassium uptake channels.

Further, I've noted that when the water becomes turbid, potassium deficiency and leaf necrosis is observed. Why? Because turbid water significantly reduces light intensity, which means less nutrient uptake, which results in a higher concentration of metals which affect the uptake channels.

This also corroborates other members' observations (PhilipRaposa1982, Positron) that reducing or eliminating fertilization resulted in improved growth. I also observe the same phenomenon.

Further, I've noticed long-term adverse health in fish, shrimp, and snails. Reduced gravidity and spawning in fish, as well as swollen gills; neurological problems and ultimately death in shrimp; lethargy and death in snails.

What I conclude from these observations is that EI levels of micronutrients have a negative affect on plants and animals. 1ppm of Fe/week and relative amounts of other metals from CSM+B have negative affects and I no longer recommend such high amounts. I am currently experimenting with very lean doses of CSM+B, 0.02ppm of Fe/dose, to see if this results in significant improvement.

BTW: hydroponics/aquaponics suggests adding 2ppm of Fe every three weeks. That's <1ppm/week for terrestrial plants receiving >2000 PAR and 400ppm of CO2. Why are we adding that much for aquatic plants that receive <100PAR and <40ppm of CO2?


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## Saxa Tilly (Apr 7, 2015)

Great thread, Solcielo. Very interesting how taking a few months off gave you insight and perspective into possible trace overdose. 

I have Kompacta and corymbosa. Both grow very well, but both have classic K def symptoms with yellow-ringed holes in older leaves that fall off and float up to surface. All new leaves are robust and algae-free. I dose about 25 ppm K 3X a week. Also dose 0.23 ppm Fe 3X a week as CSM+B. Most of the other plants are thriving, including touchy ones like Rot macrandra and Pogo stell narrow leaf. Unlike you, I am reluctant to increase K any higher. 

Please keep us posted on how your low-trace routine works out. Given your inert substrate, your plants are depended on your trace regimen for everything.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

After many more months of dosing reduced CSM+B, I confirm that the appearance of potassium deficiency is actually micronutrient toxicity. This isn't to say that pinholes aren't the result of potassium deficiency as it very well could be. However, if you are dosing EI levels of CSM+B, i.e. 0.5ppm of Fe per dose, or >1ppm of Fe per week, and also dosing high concentrations of potassium and have pinholes, then it's very likely that you have trace element toxicities occurring. I have observed trace metal toxicity occurring at 0.1ppm of Fe/daily, 0.7ppm of Fe/weekly, which suggests that even at this lower concentration, it's excessive.

So why does dosing excess potassium result in the reduction of pinholes if it's a micronutrient toxicity? Because K+ competes for uptake with Fe++, Cu++, Mn++, Zn++, etc. which helps to prevent heavy metal toxicity. If there is more potassium, then it limits the uptake of these heavy metals. Also, hard water, water with high concentrations of Ca++ and Mg++, also prevents micronutrient toxicity for the same reasons.

From PortalMasterRY's water testing thread, it became apparent that trace metal uptake is very low, almost none. Dosing full EI concentrations of CSM+B resulted in excessively high levels of iron and copper. This doesn't mean that all iron and copper is from CSM+B as there will be some that comes from the tap.

Another thing to mention is that aquariums with new substrate with high CEC (such as EcoComplete/Floramax, Aquasoil, other clay substrates) will be less prone to micronutrient toxicity. Reason: adsorption capacity (ad-, not ab-.) New substrate will be able to quickly adsorb these cations upon contact and thus will be removed from the water column. But as time passes, adsorption capacity diminishes. This ultimately results in the inability to adsorb more once capacity is full. Like trying to get on a crowded bus but there just isn't enough space, you'll have to get on the next one.

Since reducing micros (I'm currently down to 0.2ppm/fe/week from CSM+B), every single plant has improved and quite drastically. Hygrophila pinnatifida no longer gets pinholes and grows quite beautifully. I also no longer have to dose so much potassium. For those who are dosing in excess of 30ppm of potassium each week, I'm gonna guess that you also dose high levels of micros.


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## Positron (Jul 22, 2013)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> After many more months of dosing reduced CSM+B, I confirm that the appearance of potassium deficiency is actually micronutrient toxicity. This isn't to say that pinholes aren't the result of potassium deficiency as it very well could be. However, if you are dosing EI levels of CSM+B, i.e. 0.5ppm of Fe per dose, or >1ppm of Fe per week, and also dosing high concentrations of potassium and have pinholes, then it's very likely that you have trace element toxicities occurring. I have observed trace metal toxicity occurring at 0.1ppm of Fe/daily, 0.7ppm of Fe/weekly, which suggests that even at this lower concentration, it's excessive.
> 
> So why does dosing excess potassium result in the reduction of pinholes if it's a micronutrient toxicity? Because K+ competes for uptake with Fe++, Cu++, Mn++, Zn++, etc. which helps to prevent heavy metal toxicity. If there is more potassium, then it limits the uptake of these heavy metals. Also, hard water, water with high concentrations of Ca++ and Mg++, also prevents micronutrient toxicity for the same reasons.
> 
> ...



Solcielo, 


Thanks for the update concerning your tank(s). It took me almost a year to reach your conclusions, and I was just figuring it out when I wrote my last post. Since then my tanks continue to thrive under 20% EI micro dosing levels. Currently, I made a new batch of CSM + b in 1L. Each 15 mL dose adds .15 ppm of iron. I'm scared this is too much because I was dosing .07ppm before (3x weekly for both). 


So now I'm up to .45 ppm a week and I'm seeing the usual benefits of higher Fe, Zn. My L. Aromatica colors up insanely with more of these elements. It's too soon to know if I'm adding too much micro for the other plants. So far so good, but I'm only on my 2nd dose of the new regimen. It literally took 1 day for the Aromatica to color up. I've also found that adding .75 ppm 3 times a week of Urea to help bypass uptake issues. I know it sounds odd because NO3 is an anion, and metals are cations, but I swear that the added urea adds nice bulk and definition to my hyro compact and macandra. 


My macros (3x weekly)


4 ppm NO3 (from kno3)
0.75 ppm urea (actively the equivalent of 2.25 ppm NO3)
1.3 ppm PO4
total K+ 3ppm per dose (from KH2PO4 and KNO3)
4 ppm Ca (added once a week)
1.2 ppm Mg (added once a week)


Notice no added K2SO4. I was reading about the effective N:K ratio on Tom Barr's site and because NO3 is locked up behind 3 oxygen's, plants would have to use something like 8x the amount of NO3 before the amount of K added in KNO3 and KH2PO4 would run out. There is never a need to add more K if you are adding these two. 


Besides, the extra SO4 from K2SO4 simply isn't needed. I get more than enough S from CaSO4 and MgSO4. 


I think you are right too when it comes to the Cation Exchange Capability of porous rock. It gets used up, and what's left in there is a toxic amount of transition metals. Using H+ transport from the roots, plants are able to get at it, and it may simply be too much when we take into account what we are already adding in the water. 


The take away here is that plants don't seem to need NEARLY as much trace as what's in EI...even at 80 PAR and 40 ppm co2. 


Do what is sane and focus more on CO2 and keeping your macro's in order. Start out with 0.05 ppm iron 3x a week from CSM+B and if you notice pale new growth up it a little bit. If I go below .05 ppm x3 a week, my Rotala indica get's pale. 


If I go too high on the traces bad things ALWAYS happen. Old growth with pin holes, looks like a combination of P and K deficiency. New growth twisted and messed up. 


I've also been reading that keeping NO3 below 10, and preferably 5ppm also helps with stunting especially with AR. When I drop below 10ppm NO3 I get stunting in all my other plants so this isn't an option. Since I've been using Urea, my Macandra has really taken off. Nothing else has changed except the addition of Urea. I highly recommend you try it. 


So you'll hear Tom Barr say something like, "What happens when we add more N into the tank if it's not already NO3? We are simply growing more biological filter to convert that N source into NO3"


That's not a quote, but I've read enough Barr to know what he would say, and it's true...some of that urea will end up as regular old NO3. And what do you have to show for it? Just more bacteria that are around to break down the urea. Why add NH4 when you can just feed your fish more? 


This is my thought: because Urea isn't NH4. It's 2NH4 and some carbon. It isn't broken down in the same manner as NH4 is. It could be NH3, but at my pH levels there will never be any. Whether the urea is broken down inside the plant or not, it still provides what I call a nutrient "spike." A higher amount of NH4 than the baseline. It could only spike for a few hours, and some would say in the hobby that any spike is going to cause issues with algae and bad growth. Then why I have I seen time and time again this not to be true?


I add lots of food to my 75 gal. 1 hour later the plants are pearling like crazy and increased in color. I add Urea and the plants grow more over night than what I've seen without it. I dose 3x the amount of NO3 and nothing changes.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Thanks for the update, Positron. That corroborates each other's experiences. I'll try dosing some urea in the near future.


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## PerfectDepth (Dec 3, 2014)

Good info, guys. Thank you. I'm curious, are either of you dosing additional Fe at all, or just what is in CSM+B? If so, what is the combined weekly total ppm?


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

I'm currently experimenting with further reduced CSM+B and supplementing extra Fe with FeDTPA.
But prior, CSM+B = 0.2ppm of Fe per week as proxy seems to be fine in high light, added CO2, heavy plant mass tank.
At 0.7ppm of Fe/week as proxy resulted in issues with plants.


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## PerfectDepth (Dec 3, 2014)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> I'm currently experimenting with further reduced CSM+B and supplementing extra Fe with FeDTPA.
> But prior, CSM+B = 0.2ppm of Fe per week as proxy seems to be fine in high light, added CO2, heavy plant mass tank.
> At 0.7ppm of Fe/week as proxy resulted in issues with plants.


Thanks. 0.23 ppm 3X, or 0.7 ppm Fe per week is what I was dosing previously (plus flourish iron at about 0.75 ppm weekly) 

I've recently cut that in half, back to the original dosage of CSM+B I was adding when I started the tank and demand was lower. I'm seeing some improvement now but it looks like I might have to try halving it again!


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

Was going through some old threads doing research, and came across this.



Positron said:


> This is my thought: because Urea isn't NH4. It's 2NH4 and some carbon. It isn't broken down in the same manner as NH4 is. It could be NH3, but at my pH levels there will never be any.


Where you put the numbers and letters makes a big difference to the chemical makeup. Urea is not 2 x NH4 and some carbon.

The formula for urea is CH4N2O, with the elemental composition of CO(NH2)2. So there are two NH2 ions joined by a carbonyl group.

I previously wrote off using urea for some forgotten reason, and I have been using ammonium sulfate (NH4)2SO4 instead. But doing some quick fact checking while making this post, I'm going to switch to urea instead to minimise sulfur. This would make my only sulfur source MgSO4*7H2O.


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## Positron (Jul 22, 2013)

Audionut said:


> Was going through some old threads doing research, and came across this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, sorry you are correct: Urea doesn't contain NH4/3 but has two radical NH2 instead. I used NH4/3 because NH2 isn't observed in nature by itself (at least I don't think it is). 


An update on using Urea:


It's been more than a few weeks now and things are doing quite nicely. The rotalas especially are growing faster and fuller (macandra in particular). I have seen no negative side effects to dosing .75ppm three times a week. 


I was going to use .45 ppm a week from CSM, but decided against it. I'm using about .2ppm iron per week from CSM (plus .4ppm from DTPA iron). I really do believe the problem was more in the dosing of CSM than anything. 


The H. Pinnatifida is becoming almost evasive; it's strong roots penetrate and it's runner's interfere with S. repens pretty bad. I have to prune bi-weekly.


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

Positron said:


> Urea doesn't contain NH4/3 but has two radical NH2 instead. I used NH4/3 because NH2 isn't observed in nature by itself (at least I don't think it is).


That's my limited understanding also.

0.2ppm Fe from CSM+B may be to much by itself. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/8562866-post172.html

Just raced down to the local agricultural store since I can get most ferts for AU $1 / Kg, but 2 different supplies of urea either have 0.01% fluorine or 0.01% lead. Bugger.



Solcielo lawrencia said:


> Thus, the concentration appears to matter more than the total amount added per week.


That's my observation.


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## Positron (Jul 22, 2013)

Audionut said:


> That's my limited understanding also.
> 
> 0.2ppm Fe from CSM+B may be to much by itself. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/8562866-post172.html
> 
> ...


Yup. I've decided 0.2ppm is still too much. I just recieved Aquasoil for my 75g, and it will be the first time I'm using this substrate. I know there's probably alot of hype, but we'll see!

Cutting the CSM+B portion to 0.0375ppm x3 a week (.1125ppm weekly). I'll keep the iron dtpa at .2ppm per dose. I'm not sure though if that still is too much iron. My pH with co2 on is about 6.15 and my kH is 1.5 and gH is 3 (gH is less than 1 from the tap). 

I feel like this new substrate will give me a new slate. .No heavy metal cations bound to my high CEC substrate...yet


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Positron said:


> Yup. I've decided 0.2ppm is still too much. I just recieved Aquasoil for my 75g, and it will be the first time I'm using this substrate. I know there's probably alot of hype, but we'll see!


I thought 0.2ppm of Fe from CSM+B per week was safe. I no longer believe this to be true. Even 0.1ppm of Fe is toxic. However, at this low concentration, it doesn't affect the H. pinna but it does affect other plants.


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## Positron (Jul 22, 2013)

Hah. Seems we are on the same wavelength. Good thing I haven't mixed up my final micro batch yet. I've been dosing my 2 smaller tanks manually at .045ppm iron from csm+b and .1ppm iron from dtpa weekly. The results are really great! Clear, sparkling water with vivid green new growth. My big tank is undegoing a mini cycle as the filters try to catch up to the NH4 of the aquasoil so I'm only dosing potassium (7ppm each dose, but daily huge water changes), and some bicarbonate. The soil has been sucking my kH down to less than 0.5 (although it's only 1.5 from tap).


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## Asu1776 (Mar 5, 2013)

Just wanted to say that I thought the the discussions in this thread have been rather insightful for me. Over the past year, I have been struggling with my ~10g high light, EI dosing planted tank. I was off to a great start initially and things were growing in very nicely before the plants started to progressively deteriorate. I noticed stunting and curling of my AR mini and lobelia as well as dead spots and die off in my monte carlo and staurogyne repens. When I first started to understand how to fertilize my tank, I was under the impression that as long as ferts are present in approximate concentrations, that you are left only with Co2 as the real variable. So I spent a lot of time trouble shooting how to maximize Co2 levels and how to improve circulation in the tank. But then I'd go to Aqua Forest and see their tanks with Co2 barely pumping, minimal dosing, high light, and complex layouts with healthy and luscious plant growth.

I recently rebooted my 10gallon tank hoping to get it right from the start again with some new knowledge, but my h. pinnatifida recently started to show the same pin holes you had which eventually led to leaf death from tip to stem. I suspected it was K deficiency as you did, but it didn't make sense to me given the heavy K dosing I was doing, especially with GH booster (Seachem Equib, actually). SOOO, I came across your thread which caused me to look into my micro dosing. Seems like I was targeting ~1.0PPM of Fe per week, with >3/4 of that Fe coming from CSM+B. I did a few major water changes recently to lower nutrient concentrations in the tank, and I dialed back my micro dosing amounts, so we will see how the tank fairs afterwards. 

I wonder if the micronutrient toxicity can also explain why my anubias has not really been growing and my rotala H'ra has shown stunted small new growth in some places. It kind of makes sense that when I did massive water changes back when I was troubleshooting my tank, that the plants recovered for a bit before going down hill again. I'm lead to believe with smaller tanks, more delicate care is needed in targeting nutrient levels. Small changes can make big swings. 

Anyway, appreciate the effort and thought you put into looking into your plant growth!


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## Positron (Jul 22, 2013)

Asu1776 said:


> Just wanted to say that I thought the the discussions in this thread have been rather insightful for me. Over the past year, I have been struggling with my ~10g high light, EI dosing planted tank. I was off to a great start initially and things were growing in very nicely before the plants started to progressively deteriorate. I noticed stunting and curling of my AR mini and lobelia as well as dead spots and die off in my monte carlo and staurogyne repens. When I first started to understand how to fertilize my tank, I was under the impression that as long as ferts are present in approximate concentrations, that you are left only with Co2 as the real variable. So I spent a lot of time trouble shooting how to maximize Co2 levels and how to improve circulation in the tank. But then I'd go to Aqua Forest and see their tanks with Co2 barely pumping, minimal dosing, high light, and complex layouts with healthy and luscious plant growth.
> 
> I recently rebooted my 10gallon tank hoping to get it right from the start again with some new knowledge, but my h. pinnatifida recently started to show the same pin holes you had which eventually led to leaf death from tip to stem. I suspected it was K deficiency as you did, but it didn't make sense to me given the heavy K dosing I was doing, especially with GH booster (Seachem Equib, actually). SOOO, I came across your thread which caused me to look into my micro dosing. Seems like I was targeting ~1.0PPM of Fe per week, with >3/4 of that Fe coming from CSM+B. I did a few major water changes recently to lower nutrient concentrations in the tank, and I dialed back my micro dosing amounts, so we will see how the tank fairs afterwards.
> 
> ...


This is exactly how it happened to me with my H.P. At first thought the pinholes where K problems, increased dosing...not resolved. I went through all the tricks and flips with CO2 and if anything increasing it past yellow on the drop checker just made things worse. My reactor couldn't keep up with like 15 bubbles a second, bubbles flew out of my outtake, pH was about 5.5. Fish hated it, water was cloudy in an acidic stew. It was a mess.

If you look in the trace tox thread you'll see lots of observations. I'd cut out traces all together, including iron for a few weeks. You really have nothing to loose if your plants arn't in good health anyway. Give it a shot.

Of course carry on with your major water changes.

I heard that if your plants grow better for a period of time after a water change, that you have co2 issues because the new water is full of co2. Malarkey. Even if the new water was 100 ppm co2 ive come close to it using pressurized. There's no difference. I used to change my water right before the lights go out so that when i was done with the change, the lights would be out for the night. I used to wonder why my plants did better for a few days after the change because the plants couldn't use any of the water-rich co2 for another 12 hours. After that time, all of the co2 would have been gassed off anyway.
Doing the water changes temporary relieved the stress your plants were under from traces. 

Don't listen to people trying to tell you that you need 50+ ppm of CO2 to achieve full, healthy and fast growth. Honestly I see no difference between 20 and 40 ppm of co2. Maybe for some really soft water plants like Rotala Macandra there is some difference, but not a huge amount. 

Keep your KH around 2 and gH at 1 or 2. You don't need any more GH than 2. If you keep your trace dosing under control (I would not even use CSM+B, but buy flourish trace and add a little borric acid and mnso4 to balance things out), then you don't need ridiculous GH levels. If your GH is high from the tap...then oh well. You'll have to find a happy medium. Sometimese with high GH some added boron can help (like an extra 0.003 ppm per dose). This can help especially if some species look like they have Ca deficiency (twisted new growth, death or stunting of the tip). 

With traces, dose very sparingly and wait for an actual deficiency. Most likely Fe and Mn will appear first, and deficiency of either of these is very noticeable and can't be confused with toxicity. Intervienal chlorosis mostly, and if new growth is light green or white it's most likely Fe instead of Mn. Also with Mn deficiency (or Fe excess) the ability for the plant to perform photosynthesis and respiration is severly hampered. If your noticing your plants arn't pearling like they used to, or at all, it might be low Mn. I need to do more testing with Mn, but adding 0.01 ppm with 0.05 ppm iron gluc seems to increase photosynthesis by a lot. Mostly Mn is deficient. 

But don't jump on that band wagon yet! Get your tank to a base level and simply stop dosing micro's. 

Hope this helps you in the end. It's a pain to deal with this, and many people would ride it off as the poster simply neglecting their tank or co2 problems. Keep the tank clean and maintained, cut out the traces, keep macro's at a sane level...you should be fine.


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

Positron, can you elaborate a bit on the suggestion to limit GH and KH to the 1-2 range? I was under the impression that excessive micros was the agreed-upon culprit for a lot of growth issues, and while I'm not convinced, I can see the reasoning, or at least parts of it. But you suggest keeping the GH and KH to the super-soft range, and then mention not needing "ridiculous GH levels" in the same paragraph. Certainly there's a middle area between the extremes, and I don't remember seeing claims of excessive Ca or Mg as toxins. What is "ridiculous" GH? I would have thought maybe 12+, but do you feel it's much less than that?

I would have guessed, if asked, that dangerously low Ca and Mg levels might exist in the 0-3 GH range. And, even if that's not true, why limit GH and KH to that low? Is it because limiting them allows damage from micro excesses to be more obvious?


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## Positron (Jul 22, 2013)

Well GH is less important to keep lower than KH. If your GH is high from the tap, then there's not much you can do about it. In my opinion, adding huge amounts of CaSO4 and MgSO4 to get GH of 4 or 5 isn't needed. So if you have GH of 2, then there is no need to raise it to 4. The only thing I would do in that situation is perhaps add enough Mg from MgSO4 to break 0.5ppm in the water...just to make sure there is some in there. If you actually have less than 0.5 GH (which I do), then I do this to reconstitute the water:

1 ppm Ca from CaSO4
0.33ppm Mg from MgSO4

Anything beyond that is counterproductive. 

I never said GH (Ca and Mg) where toxic. In fact they can help relieve the effects of toxic doses of micro's. I would simply avoid adding GH in excess (only adding MgSO4 if you suspect your hardwater is mostly Ca).

What I'm more concerned about is keeping KH lower, especially for soft water species like R. Macandra and some of the ludwigias. Under 2 is best.


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## Primed88 (Mar 12, 2011)

Fascinating read! 

I stumbled across this thread because I've tried to grow this plant but have failed 3X previously. Up and until this point, I was looking for info on the right amount of liquid potassium to dose weekly but finding that there might be a micro nutrient toxicity is an avenue I think I need to explore especially since the pinhole problem has only ever been present in this hygro. Now my question is as follows...

My EI trace mix is:

Fe *8.2%*
Mn *1.82%*
Zn *1.16%*
B* 1.05%*
Cu *0.23%*
Mo *0.15%*

Dosing 3X a week, 10ml per 50ltr. My aquarium is 180L/47Gal. Pressurized Co2, 2XT5 etc

How should I adjust the EI mix/dosing to accommodate the Pinnatifida?


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## distortionist (Aug 16, 2017)

Sorry to wake up an old thread but I am experiencing either K deficiency or iron toxicity. I have HC plants that were yellowing and I figured out it's iron deficiency. I increased my iron and fixed that and now my HP started curling. How do I balance this? I read that HP is a potassium hog so it could very well be just a deficiency as my tank is new and I have no history to go by.

Should I use iron root tabs under the HC and stop dosing extra iron? Or should I increase K and see what happens first?

Thanks and if I should start a new thread please just let me know.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

distortionist said:


> Sorry to wake up an old thread but I am experiencing either K deficiency or iron toxicity. I have HC plants that were yellowing and I figured out it's iron deficiency. I increased my iron and fixed that and now my HP started curling. How do I balance this? I read that HP is a potassium hog so it could very well be just a deficiency as my tank is new and I have no history to go by.
> 
> Should I use iron root tabs under the HC and stop dosing extra iron? Or should I increase K and see what happens first?
> 
> Thanks and if I should start a new thread please just let me know.


Hi

You should start a new and give as much information as possible, like

All the water parameters that you know, fertilization routine including exactly how much of what, light, substrate, filters, CO2 info, PH drop from co2 if you know it. Any and everything you can think of.

AND - at least one full tank picture, and close ups of the plants in question. 

Then folks will be able to give you more accurate advice


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