# Cost of ADA Aquasoil Vs Eco-complete



## yoink (Apr 21, 2005)

Having never purchased AS I could be wrong, but I think there is about twice as much substrate in a bag of AS compared to a bag of EC. There is a chart on the ADG website that will tell you how much you need.


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## AndyN (Jun 2, 2006)

How big is your tank? If cost is an issue and its a small to medium sized tank I'd go for AS.


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## Marc (Oct 13, 2004)

AS is worth the price.


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## cbennett (Oct 20, 2005)

I have used both flourite and AS - AS is worth the money. One 9-liter bag of AS is equal to two bags of flourite. Not sure if Eco is the same as flourite. I would check both Aquaforest and ADG and see who can get AS to you (or your friend) the cheapest.


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## davej (Feb 22, 2006)

Do you have a link for Aquaforest?


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

davej said:


> I currently am using Florabase in my tank with so so results, and I am thinking of changing my substrate.


For what it is worth, I have grown some of the finest plants in Flora Base, the tank in my sig is with FB, AS is just as good, 
If one can use it and another cannot, what does that mean? 

AS is good yes, but so is the FB, I wouldn't trade knowing what I know about the two, I do like the color of AS better.
Did you add some peat below the FB? if not, you should have.


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## davej (Feb 22, 2006)

No I didn't add any peat to the flora base, guess I should have.
I got a couple of cuttings of rotala mini from a store here that were growing in the AS. Great growth looking really nice even with minimal ferts.
I planted them in my flora base with EI end my new growth is really stunted, also tried some Ludwigia, guinea same thing.
But other plants I am getting phenominal growth, my P. Stellata grows a foot in 3-4 weeks, have to keep cutting it back, same with other plants. I thougt maybe something was missing in the flora base that these needed.
Tom Barr suggested not enough C02 but with a KH of 4-5 and PH of 6.2 I wonder if I can go any lower, without killing the fish.
I guess after seeing how well the mini was doing in a stores tank with little extra fertilizer, I thought maybe the substrate was what was making the difference


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## cbennett (Oct 20, 2005)

Here's the contact info for Aqua Forest:

Aqua Forest Aquarium
1718 Fillmore Street
San Francisco, CA 94115-3130
415-929-8883 
415-929-8826 fax
650-773-2989 cell
[email protected]

Mon-Sat: 11-8
Sunday: 12-7
Tuesday: closed

George Lo is one of the brothers that runs the store.

P.S. I am running CO2 so that with the AS my pH is down to 5.5 - 6.0, all my fish are loving it especially the dwarf cichlids.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

You have to check with ADG before you place an order with Aqua Forest.

ADG is pretty much set up for an online/shipping business. Aqua Forest is run by a couple of really good guys, no doubt, but they are a retail shop that sends stuff out. They don't deal in the same manner or in the bulk amounts ADG does. Add to that the fact that ADG supports our site, and you have to at least give ADG a look.

Mike


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## billionzz (Jul 9, 2003)

I had a 120g tank with ECO in and and I switched to AS, a bag of AS covers more than ECO.

AS is easier to plant in, grows plants better and in my opinion it looks better.

Bill


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

2nd ADG. Jeff has gone to great lengths to promote ADA products in the USA.


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## thatguy (Oct 11, 2005)

another nod to the AquaForest folk.:thumbsup:


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## davej (Feb 22, 2006)

Thanks for the input, ADA is on order from ADG. Jeff there was a pleasure to deal with. I cant wait for it to get here.I will post a follow up to let you know how it goes after I change it out. Craig you had mentioned adding a little peat under the Florabase, do you recommend that I do this with the ADA soil as well or just use it staight out of the bag.


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## dhavoc (May 4, 2006)

add a little peat. just watch the initial ammonia spike from AS, not sure why it happens but use mulm or a sponge filter from an established tank to shorten the spike time, mine took 2-3 weeks to go down even with plants but no fish/shrimp. Jeff at ADG says that the power sand helps minimize but i didnt use it. i love the color of AS and it is easy to plant stuff in, a little light though so heavy water movement will move it around, where as ECO is a little heavier/harder to stir up.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Yes, definitely add a little peat if not adding Power Sand, personally I like the PS and think it is smart, because not only does it have peat added it also has pumice? stones in it that are larger than the substrate itself allowing for flow/current in the depths which is very benificial for strong healthy roots and a vibrant, live, active substrate. 




davej said:


> Thanks for the input, ADA is on order from ADG. Jeff there was a pleasure to deal with. I cant wait for it to get here.I will post a follow up to let you know how it goes after I change it out. Craig you had mentioned adding a little peat under the Florabase, do you recommend that I do this with the ADA soil as well or just use it staight out of the bag.


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## ringram (Jan 19, 2005)

True, but I bet its cheaper to pick it up from, say, Aquaforest than it is to have ADG ship it to you, even though their price may be cheaper than the retail price.



Momotaro said:


> You have to check with ADG before you place an order with Aqua Forest.
> 
> ADG is pretty much set up for an online/shipping business. Aqua Forest is run by a couple of really good guys, no doubt, but they are a retail shop that sends stuff out. They don't deal in the same manner or in the bulk amounts ADG does. Add to that the fact that ADG supports our site, and you have to at least give ADG a look.
> 
> Mike


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> True, but I bet its cheaper to pick it up from, say, Aquaforest than it is to have ADG ship it to you, even though their price may be cheaper than the retail price.


Possibly. 

However, the member who posted the question is from Vancouver, BC. I am certain it will be less expensive for them to have ADG send the Aqua Soil than to pick it up from Aqua Forest.

Mike


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## davej (Feb 22, 2006)

Momotaro said:


> Possibly.
> 
> However, the member who posted the question is from Vancouver, BC. I am certain it will be less expensive for them to have ADG send the Aqua Soil than to pick it up from Aqua Forest.
> 
> Mike


 You got that right Mike that would be one hell of a drive:eek5:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> Yes, definitely add a little peat if not adding Power Sand, personally I like the PS and think it is smart, because not only does it have peat added it also has pumice? stones in it that are larger than the substrate itself allowing for flow/current in the depths which is very benificial for strong healthy roots and a vibrant, live, active substrate.


I've heard this myth stated a dozen or more time and had ADA say it but not one person has ever justified it.

It does make any sense.
I'm not going after you Craig, never fear, just this cockymainy notion.
I've never bought into the BS.
This is the same _Balonius maximus _that the heater cable folks claimed.

There are two issues that need addressing and both make a real difference and negate this so called benefit:

1. Over a few weeks/months, the top layer is finer and the pieces break up and the sand/soil acts like a clogged filter layer. Does not matter what is on the bottom nor the size, the layer from the top down is clogged.
This prevents flow of O2 from the top.

The size or larger on top going to smaller grain sizes on the bottom is the logical pattern that will stay in place.
If you uproot any plants and are not very careful, lay screen down etc, this stuff comes up. I have vac it up but it's a PITA.

2. Plant roots, these pump all the O2 we need down there for bacteria.
Takes a little while for this, but.........it also takes a little while for the bacteria colonies to grow.

The bacteria are what cause reducing conditions if they use up all the available O2. Only then can a deep substrate go anaerobic. Slightly anaerobic is fine also.

We anaylzed PS, it's not particularly different han the AS, other than lots of NO3, about 50X more than AS.

NO3 is an extremely mobile anionm, it's veryu difficult to bind anions in clays, also some does occur, but pumic is poor in terms of CEC and AEC.
Clays tend to be good for CEC, and the longer term effectiveness of AS as a supply of NH4 seems to be why the AS tanks do well.

In order to ascertain the difference that PS makes, you need to do a fair comparison, so far, I seem to be the only one that has done so.

Tank 1#: AS + PS dose non limiting nutrients to the water column
Tank 2#, AS dose non limiting nutrients to thwe water column
Tank 3# PS+ AS, dose only traces to the water column
Tank 4# AS dose only traces to the water column

Tank 1 and 2 had no differences.
Tanl's 3 and 4 did. No surprise in either case.

So if you do not dose macros, then PS has a some use for a few months.
I'm not sure why this is a benefit if you know what KNO3 is.

I can see why a newbie might, I can see why a LFS might, but if I add traces 3-7x a day, what is the difference if I add some KNO3 and KHPO4 along with it?

I have to dose something anyway.
May as well use KNO3 @ 22$ for 50lbs, it's hardly pricey and it's much easier to monitor and dose consistently. It'll never wear out, it has no aesthetic impact or uprooting/mixing issues.

This notion of limiting water column nutrients is born from the idea that excess nutrients cause algae, I blew that hypothesis out of the water a long time ago. So we are left with a few things such as ignorance about KNO3 and KH2PO4 which is not common except with a very new newbie or a non web aquarist. 

Sure, it's an alternative method so to speak, but you still have to add things to the water column and the algae is still far from limited, nor does PS offer any better O2 exchange in the sediment. 

Wetland biogeochemistry of soil is dictated by organic matter, reduction/oxidation and bacteria. A little peat causes some reduction but bacteria have a tough time breaking the peat down fast. The AS is a clay that has occuluded layers in each grain for it's organic sources of NH4, this is available only when root hairs penatrate the grains. So this last a longer time than the initial set up phase that Ps is added, after that, the PS offers little.

I've yet to find low flow a hinderance in sediments anyway in any aquarium set, soil, manures.

Normal 2-3 mm sand did very well and provided optimal grain sizing for aquatic plant horticulture (Tropica) rather than larger grain layers. 

I've done the comparison, you should also try it and then you'll know.


Simply mixing everything together and assuming each part does what the ADA claims is not a good way to see and learn about which things are effective or not. You need to do some comparisons and a control. You need to see what is in each product as well.

Otherwise you are guessing.

This is why I was criotical to start with, then after I did the test, I can say PS=> not particularly useful for me and most folks that use EI , KNO3 etc.
AS=> very useful for most every one.

Dupla made some claims and many folks supported their ideas about cables.
Then I used RFUG to see the issue from the opposite end, under higher aerobic conditions. Then no flow conditions(simply turn the cables off)

This malarky about flow and O2 to the roots is nothing but old rehash goign way back some 20 years and it's still malarky today as much as it was then, at least PS has some nutrients in it at least.

Dupla did bring gas tank CO2 to the hobby (large scale hobby marketing), but figuring out which do and which don't really make a significant difference are key questions if you desire a greater understanding about a product and it's efficiacy. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## davej (Feb 22, 2006)

Tom, do you think there would be any harm in adding a little peat blow the AS?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

It would be a wise idea to help produce slightly reducing conditions till the bacteria take over that role.

I add peat(a light dusting) and mulm to my new set ups and , of course, pack the tank with so many pklants there's no room left.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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