# 141 Gallon Planted S. Am Cichlid Journal [was Mbuna]



## geektom (Dec 17, 2012)

Just add additional one-word posts: “equipment”, “fish”, etc. Then you can go back and use the edit function later.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

*Equipment:*

CO2 injection test [12/8/2018] Details *HERE*.

A poor picture showing surface agitation.
20181208_101946 by pat w1, on Flickr

CO2 Reg setting.
20181208_103322 by pat w1, on Flickr

Ph of degassed sample - 24hr airiation 40hr rest.
20181208_101426 by pat w1, on Flickr

pH progress - 50 cc/min on the Dwyer - 10 minute intervals.
20181208_105143_Signature by pat w1, on Flickr 20181208_110002_Signature by pat w1, on Flickr
20181208_111214_Signature by pat w1, on Flickr 20181208_112209_Signature by pat w1, on Flickr
20181208_113159_Signature by pat w1, on Flickr 20181208_114350_Signature by pat w1, on Flickr

Some Pics of my CO2 regulator and delivery system [12/2/2018]
Further details in post @ https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1282533-141-gallon-planted-s-am-cichlid-journal-%5B-
mbuna%5D-4.html#post11143947

An old Victor 450D. An oldie but goodie.

20181202_174856 by pat w1, on Flickr

20181202_174932 by pat w1, on Flickr

A pic of the delivery system including the Dwyer flowmeter and the GLA inline diffuser and 10' coil of 5/8" ID hose in the background.

20181202_175052 by pat w1, on Flickr

The remainder of the delivery is a PVC port feeding the input of the return pump.

20181202_175141 by pat w1, on Flickr

What should be the final of the rock work. [11/18/2018]

Anyone using a landscaping supply for smooth river stones needs to take a spray bottle of water to expose the character of the stones. Some of these are amazing and I wouldn't have known otherwise.

20181118_202221 by pat w1, on Flickr

20181118_202243 by pat w1, on Flickr

20181118_202335 by pat w1, on Flickr

20181118_202415 by pat w1, on Flickr

20181118_202351 by pat w1, on Flickr

20181118_202415 by pat w1, on Flickr

20181118_202442 by pat w1, on Flickr

First post 11/04/2018
20180911_142955 by pat w1, on Flickr

It's a monster, at least by my standards. 141 gallon display. Tank dims: 60"L 26"W x 24"H. 3/4" Starfire low iron glass all around (1" bottom). Smoked glass back and overflow. Overflow has a smoked glass cover. Drilled fo a dual "Herbie" drain. Ready made plumbing with tools free installation. Two individually adjustable flow accessory supplies branching off the main return. Recommended filter flow is 1600gph.

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20180911_143302 by pat w1, on Flickr

I just like like a sump. IMO nothing beats one for overall convenience and filtration capacity. On top of that it's an oxygenation machine. Waterbox did something with this one I really liked - cascading filter sock chambers allowing true two stage mech filtering. I'm going with 250 micron mesh in the first and 200 micron felt in the second. The next chamber is meant for a refugium but I've using it for Bio - 8 liters of Pond Matrix + 250ml Purigen. Moving straight back is the skimmer chamber. The only thing I have there are two 500 watt Finnex heaters. In the back right is the return pump chamber. I chose a Jebao DCP-13000 Sinewave. I wanted DC variable control and PWM controllers are subject to whine issues. This one is silent unless you're right on top of it. The sump is feed by a "Herbie" dual drain supply. For those of you who don't know what that is go here. Herbie Overflow Plumbing Guide for Quiet Reef Aquariums - gmacreef

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20180914_211619 by pat w1, on Flickr

I laid down a sheet of egg crate both too distribute the load of the rocks and to insure none of the digging would result in undermining of the structure.

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20180915_170233 by pat w1, on Flickr

the next four images are of the beginning stages for the rock structure for the Mbunas. They are no longer valid. The rock will be reused - differently - for the new livestock.

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20180916_161754 by pat w1, on Flickr

20180916_181651 by pat w1, on Flickr

20180922_163447 by pat w1, on Flickr

20180922_134055 by pat w1, on Flickr

A total of 8 Liters of Pond Matrix for the Bio-Filter media. Pond Matrix has a stated capacity to host anaerobic bacteria for de-nitrification although setting up the colony has been shown to be hit or miss at best. Hope springs eternal. 

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20180922_134028 by pat w1, on Flickr

The Waterbox supplied sump has a somewhat unique feature - cascading filter sock chambers. Each is individually feed from a dedicated upstream baffle. This allows for true two stage mechanical filtration. Additionally a standard gravel vac can be feed into either (I'm intending to use the mesh) to allow for a more relaxed time while vacuuming the substrate. You can vacuum to your heart's content without being bothered with either over draining the tank or overfilling buckets. All that's required is to monitor the tank and sump levels and when the sump begins to fill up, pinch off the siphon hose and take a short break to let the return pump catch up. Often a change in the noise the Herbie drains will signal you when that time comes. Did I mention I like sumps? 

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20180922_133957 by pat w1, on Flickr

Two Finnex HMX-500S 500 watt digital heaters. I'm controlling these with a Baylite 1100W Heat/Cool temperature controller. I currently have the controller set @77.1F and the temp has never varied from 77.0F at any time I have checked it. The sensor is in the drain chamber of the sump. I have two cheap digital thermometers on either end of the display tank. one reads 76.8F, the other 76.5F. These never change either. The differences I chalk up to the accuracy of the sensors in all three cases. 

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20180922_133936 by pat w1, on Flickr

A better view of the return chamber with the Jebao DCP-13000 DC Sine Wave return pump. The pump is well over-sized as I currently have it at 70% output and it will turn over the current 140 gallon water column 7 times per hour. The chamber to the front is the included Auto Top Off reservoir. When I had the temp @ 82F for the cycle I had to fill it every 3 days. Now that the temp is down to 77F it'll be more like once a week. More below.

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20180922_163906_HDR by pat w1, on Flickr

A view of where I mounted the Bayite temp controller and the DCP-13000 controller.

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20180922_163737 by pat w1, on Flickr

Technological advances seem to generate rat nests.

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20180922_163653 by pat w1, on Flickr

Normal water levels in the sump.

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IMG_4319 by pat w1, on Flickr

I added 250ml of Purigen. I have 250ml more waiting for when this needs recharging.

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IMG_4320 by pat w1, on Flickr

XP Aqua's Ultimate ATO 4 sensor Auto Top Off system. XPAQUA So far I like it. Reliable and quiet. Includes a siphon break to prevent a siphon from forming from a dropped hose. Loads of other extras I don't need. ( I wanted the security of the 4 sensors.)

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IMG_4321 by pat w1, on Flickr

The cabinet is filling up but everything will fit. I even have room to upgrade to a 10# CO2 bottle later.

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IMG_4322 by pat w1, on Flickr

Almost forgot these. Two Jebao PP-8 Wave makers. DC powerhouses. I can't take them to a setting higher than three out of eight without tossing the sand bed too much.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

It is very annoying but usually if you wait 10-15 minutes it'll let you double post. I dont think the mods care about double posting in your own journal


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

*Plants:*

[12/13/2018 Wednesday]
THE PLANTS ARE ON THEIR WAY.

Should be here Saturday.

2- Java Fern
2 -Anubias Coffeefolia
3 -Anubias Nana
1 - Green Melon Sword
1 - Amazon Sword
2 - Ozelot Green Sword
10 - Jungle Vallisneria

Got some 00 gelcaps coming to make root tab from some Osmocote + i have. 

Gotta get the fertz mixed up. Going to try to get close to Dennis Wong's "APT - Complete". Used my StockSolPro spreadsheet to develop the mix.
Link - https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/1283005-stocksolpro-resurrected.html#post11137451

Finally - some life in the tank.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

:red_mouth


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

*Livestock:*

All Mbuna species will be stocked initially at a ratio of 1 male to 5 females. If over aggression issues occur extra females may be introduced.


*Selection:*

White Top Hara:

White Top Hara by pat w1, on Flickr

Yellow Lab:

Yellow Lab by pat w1, on Flickr

Rusty:

Rusty by pat w1, on Flickr

Yellow Tail Acei:

Yellow Tail Acei by pat w1, on Flickr


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Point of warning on the rock placement and all that new "bit of coin"? 
Many of the African cichlids will dig, especially if you get into any of the mbuna and that makes the rocks a real hazard to sliding down the glass. Amazing but the fish really can get that bit of sand out from under a rock and that small shift at the bottom chn make the top rocks slide. If it reaches the glass and slides, it will ruin a big bit of that coin? 
And if that catches your attention and you are into moving rocks, consider where a fish might actually go to really hide. Right now, I see it as an obstacle to go around during a chase but no place to really hide.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Agree with Burr 100% on how much certain fish will dig. The video below has had me and the wife laughing for many months.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

PlantedRich said:


> Point of warning on the rock placement and all that new "bit of coin"?
> Many of the African cichlids will dig, especially if you get into any of the mbuna and that makes the rocks a real hazard to sliding down the glass. Amazing but the fish really can get that bit of sand out from under a rock and that small shift at the bottom chn make the top rocks slide. If it reaches the glass and slides, it will ruin a big bit of that coin?
> And if that catches your attention and you are into moving rocks, consider where a fish might actually go to really hide. Right now, I see it as an obstacle to go around during a chase but no place to really hide.





Immortal1 said:


> Agree with Burr 100% on how much certain fish will dig. The video below has had me and the wife laughing for many months.
> 
> spitting fish


As for the undermining of the rock structure, see the third pic in the 11/04/2018 Equipment update. As for hiding places the pics are a bit deceiving. There are nooks and crannies in the structure and the exit paths (according to my research) supply much the same function as overstocking to abate aggression. In an overstocked tank the chased occupant tends to "get lost in the crowd". Placing paths in the structure to turn and lose the aggressor gives the fish a way to break the sight line and serves a similar purpose. As long as the aggressor male has a territory marked off, from what I've read, he'll often break off pursuit and return to guard it (I hope). We'll see.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Cichlid-140 said:


> As for the undermining of the rock structure, see the third pic in the 11/04/2018 Equipment update. As for hiding places the pics are a bit deceiving. There are nooks and crannies in the structure and the exit paths (according to my research) supply much the same function as overstocking to abate aggression. In an overstocked tank the chased occupant tends to "get lost in the crowd". Placing paths in the structure to turn and lose the aggressor gives the fish a way to break the sight line and serves a similar purpose. As long as the aggressor male has a territory marked off, from what I've read, he'll often break off pursuit and return to guard it (I hope). We'll see.


This is where I often disagree with the most commonly promoted methods! I find fish do have many of the same traits as humans if we look closer, so I look at how people react when faced with overcrowding. Where do we see the most aggressive behavior? In the overcrowded sections of town or out in the open spaces? 
So I have gone down a different path with my fish, rather than doing what the books tell me. I have two big reasons to not overstock. One is that it makes me work harder as I have more fish than I am able to take care of in changing water, etc. and two is that they are constantly stressed and stress leads to disease, both in humans and fish. 
When I choose a place to live, I look for one where there is not going to be somebody in my face all the time and I try to give my fish the same. One way people deal with stress works for fish as well. If we can get totally away and not feel threatened, we feel better and live longer. So I find ways to let my fish have both open space to swim as well as spaces where they can actually hide, both from me and any fish who might want to chase them. I go for less stacking of rocks and more a jumble of mixed size/ shapes of rock, more like something that might have fallen off a truck rather than stacked by humans? I keep a wide range of sizes and types of fish and find it works well if I give them the variety of spaces to let them choose where and how to live. 
Then over time, I have gradually fit in plants in the spaces where the fish do not live and dig. 
Step one is to NOT overcrowd and try to force my will onto a fish who has unlimited time to do me in! 
:grin2:
An old night view from the pre-planted days? lots space. lots of both open water and mbuna but all living peacefully as they all can find what they want.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

PlantedRich said:


> This is where I often disagree with the most commonly promoted methods! I find fish do have many of the same traits as humans if we look closer, so I look at how people react when faced with overcrowding. Where do we see the most aggressive behavior? In the overcrowded sections of town or out in the open spaces?
> So I have gone down a different path with my fish, rather than doing what the books tell me. I have two big reasons to not overstock. One is that it makes me work harder as I have more fish than I am able to take care of in changing water, etc. and two is that they are constantly stressed and stress leads to disease, both in humans and fish.
> When I choose a place to live, I look for one where there is not going to be somebody in my face all the time and I try to give my fish the same. One way people deal with stress works for fish as well. If we can get totally away and not feel threatened, we feel better and live longer. So I find ways to let my fish have both open space to swim as well as spaces where they can actually hide, both from me and any fish who might want to chase them. I go for less stacking of rocks and more a jumble of mixed size/ shapes of rock, more like something that might have fallen off a truck rather than stacked by humans? I keep a wide range of sizes and types of fish and find it works well if I give them the variety of spaces to let them choose where and how to live.
> Then over time, I have gradually fit in plants in the spaces where the fish do not live and dig.
> ...


Another thing to consider is the male/female ratio. Mbuna are know to spawn readily if the correct conditions are maintained. Maintaining a good ratio (1/4 - 1/7 depending on the species) will give a break to any particular female and still satisfy the drives of the male. Additionally a conspicuously aggressive male can be re-homed and replaced or removed and reintroduced. Either can effectively re-establish dominance in the tank. 

I'm not discounting your methods. It's pointless to argue with success. I'll think about a change but my wife is happy with it as it is and since it's in the living room her opinion has to be taken into account.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Much of what I find written is just not what I find in my tanks and another part of that is the theory of keeping M/F groups in a specific ratio to keep the aggression/mating down. What I actually find is a bit of theory as well since I can't actually see hormones in the water. But what I find flies in the face of the theory that one groups female will only be pursued by the males of that group. Doesn't work in humans and I don't see it work in my breeding tanks of African cichlids. When the yellow lab female is ripe and ready to breed, the protomelas male is also ready! One of the big problems in the current African cichlid situation is the huge number of "mutts/ hybrids" we are finding as they do cross breed so easily. 
I find no point in keeping"X" number of males and "Y" females of the same group as one group will breed so easily with another. The weaker/ less dominant like the yellow lab males are often just left out if there are some more dominant fish like the zebra group in the tank. It tends to be like closing time at the bar and we often see hybrids with no name produced. I work hard to prevent setting up those situations and do often move fish when I see the action but I am still morally required to cull some groups when I see the results. When I keep a weak group like the lab, I often set them in a tank with fish so totally different like protomelas , that the female is far less prone to doing the dance with some fish who lacks all the other moves. It is not purely a matter of being present to get the chance to pass on the genes as they do have to have more of the finer details down as well, but I try to avoid the problem at step one, rather than keep a holding female for several weeks and then find out it is a total loss. 
I don't want my fish to wind up in the tanks of "mixed cichlids" that nobody can name!


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

I've been in discussions with some of the folks over on the Cichlid Forums regarding my stocking list. Some of my early selections have been changed to avoid crossbreeding. The current list is a product of those discussions. I have the intention of this being exclusively an Mbuna tank (with the exception of a couple of BN Pleco's). If what you say is true (and I see no reason to believe otherwise) then the crossbreeding risk is something I'll have to deal with going forward. Thanks for the heads up.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

What I see so often is that there are terms/ideas, etc. applied to all african cichlids as if they were all the same when each type has just as many traits which are specific to them as we see in humans. We tend to group things together as it is easy but if we really want to know how to best deal with a person, we need to know that person, not just what group they fit into. 
Cichlids can be broken down into open water and mbuna and it sounds really nice to say something like, "all mbuna dig" and let it go to print. I want to know when, why and how they dig, if I'm going to fit them into a tank full of plants! 
Number one, for me, on choosing cichlids is to sorthem and first throw out those who are more trouble than I want to deal with. There are just way too many to choose from for me to consider the thugs of the group. A pretty color may be nice but I far prefer a fish that behaves over one who looks great but tries to kill everybody! 
I do not fully follow all the advise I find in this article but there is a great deal of value in the charts of behavior of each species to be found here:
https://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/haps_vs_mbuna.php
Never met the writer but we might be soul mates in some former lifetime? I find what he writes works in my tanks. But then there is still a lot of really obsolete info still being reprinted and written. Things like all mbuna eating algae has been fully debunked but it is still written. As we finally got into the lakes we found that lots of mbuna work on the algae but it is because they try to strain small micro organisms out of the algae and don't get all the sorting done. They really eat microorganisms but the algae is just part of it! That's an important clue when we want to keep them in planted tanks. Really not a good idea to put veggie eater in with veggies so knowing they eat the veggies or just the bugs in the veggies is a biggie!


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

@PlantedRich - I'm curious about the water parameters at your tap. Mine are quite low (dGH 0-1, dKH 1-2) which forces me into a big adjustment during a 50% water change just to bring the tank to the low end of advisable values. In order to bring the GH up to 6° I need to mix lake salts into 3L of tap, 3 separate times, so I can add it to the make up water as it's coming in. KH is adjusted at the same time but it seems a little easier but I think I just hit on the right amount of buffer to add early on. I can see this as getting old going forward. On top of that I've yet to arrive at the final value of GH I expected even after a few attempts. I'm doing water changes to bring the nitrates down since my cycle completed and using the opportunity to arrive at the recipe. I'm starting to question the wisdom of fighting the water I have in order to keep the category of fish I've chosen and perhaps a change in direction may be worth considering. I'll still need to do something but the change won't be as dramatic and may just involve some crushed coral in the sump. My wife is agreeable to Angels with some compatible softer water fish which would open up my options on plant selection as well.

Thoughts?


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Sounds like a very good thought to me. I do not favor fighting the water as it is a good way to have lots of trouble as it tends to be hard to keep it stable and stable is the big thing I shoot for on almost all points. Part of that is from me not wanting to work it too hard but I could see it being a real problem for lots of other things I do. My water is very hard and alkaline and that makes it super easy for me to go with African lake cichlids. Just too easy for me to fall into not fighting it and go with what the water gives me. So from that point, I have always looked to water changes as my first thought at any point when I see fish acting odd in most any way. Good clean water is step one for my treatment of anysort so I put a tap into the former bedroom which is now the fishroom, got a food grade barrel and keep it full of water to come up to room temperature. Since it requires no treatment, I do lots of draining down and refill, even if it is just to make catching fish easy! 
But that hard alkaline water has also made me loosen up on what I feel fish can adapt to, if I hold it steady. I also have moderate success in breeding and keeping some fish who should not like my water, like angelfish, severum, and rainbow cichlids. I do seem to notice small fish like platy, guppies and swordfish seem to not be as willing/able to overrun the tank in my water. They breed but it tends to be a group of six instead of 36 and they don't really grow and prosper but that could also be that I only keep them when I have got them in a tank trade, etc. Maybe they would do better if I watched them closer? 
Angelfish might be just the thing to make life easier but if you wanted to get into some cichlids that are not so often seen, there are quite a few that can also go with the angels and give some nice color. Acara is one of my fav, but my all time favorite fish is the rainbow cichlid. 
An old line fish that tends to be here for a while and then fall out of fashion but a great little fish if you can find them:
https://www.google.com/search?q=rai.....69i57j0l5.3439j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
But very meek and easily bullied by many of the bully sort of cichlid. Tend to pull plants if they are of the tender sort that doesn't root well but I love them with bigger stuff like sword plants. Maybe not the best for grasses and moss, etc.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

Just got home from work and had the discussion with my wife. I think I'll be switching gears on the tank before the chance gets away from me.



PlantedRich said:


> Sounds like a very good thought to me. I do not favor fighting the water as it is a good way to have lots of trouble as it tends to be hard to keep it stable and stable is the big thing I shoot for on almost all points. Part of that is from me not wanting to work it too hard but I could see it being a real problem for lots of other things I do. My water is very hard and alkaline and that makes it super easy for me to go with African lake cichlids. Just too easy for me to fall into not fighting it and go with what the water gives me. So from that point, I have always looked to water changes as my first thought at any point when I see fish acting odd in most any way. Good clean water is step one for my treatment of anysort so I put a tap into the former bedroom which is now the fishroom, got a food grade barrel and keep it full of water to come up to room temperature. Since it requires no treatment, I do lots of draining down and refill, even if it is just to make catching fish easy!
> But that hard alkaline water has also made me loosen up on what I feel fish can adapt to, if I hold it steady. I also have moderate success in breeding and keeping some fish who should not like my water, like angelfish, severum, and rainbow cichlids. I do seem to notice small fish like platy, guppies and swordfish seem to not be as willing/able to overrun the tank in my water. They breed but it tends to be a group of six instead of 36 and they don't really grow and prosper but that could also be that I only keep them when I have got them in a tank trade, etc. Maybe they would do better if I watched them closer?
> Angelfish might be just the thing to make life easier but if you wanted to get into some cichlids that are not so often seen, there are quite a few that can also go with the angels and give some nice color. Acara is one of my fav but my all time favorite fish is the rainbow cichlid.
> An old line fish that tends to be here for a while and then fall out of fashion but a great little fish if you can find them:
> ...


Great minds must think alike. We already settled on the Electric Blue Acara as a choice. What do you think of the matchup with a Red Spot Severum? Those would throw in some great color contrast. 

As for tossing the plants, I was already planning on Jungle Vals in pots so some more pots for some swords wouldn't be a problem. Anubias and JAva Fern tied to some rock or wood and, heck, might try an Electric Blue Jack Dempsey. ... Got plenty of rock :grin2:.

Thanks, man. You've been a big help.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

I would go with the acara and severum but the Jack is named after a boxer/prize fighter and has much the same attitude! Might be worth a try but generally I would think one might get too big and nasty pretty quickly. But there are fish who do not fit the standard and some are nice fellows but I would want to be alert and have a plan for moving one if it became a problem. I just like to steer clear of questions and might suggest sticking with the smallish cichlids. 
So many fish, so little time?/


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

PlantedRich said:


> I would go with the acara and severum but the Jack is named after a boxer/prize fighter and has much the same attitude! Might be worth a try but generally I would think one might get too big and nasty pretty quickly. But there are fish who do not fit the standard and some are nice fellows but I would want to be alert and have a plan for moving one if it became a problem. I just like to steer clear of questions and might suggest sticking with the smallish cichlids.
> So many fish, so little time?/


Such a shame. My wife likes JD's and Silver Dollars and I have to disappoint her on both counts.

I had a fish death on a small tank a few months ago following a water change that prompted me to check the pH. It was in the high 4's. I was shocked because my tap is in the mid 6's. I assumed that the water change freed up some sequestered ammonia which took out the fish. I added some crushed coral and it's been in the low 7's ever since. I also added some Seachem Matrix to augment the Fluval Ceramic rings that were there. I checked the GH and KH last night.

GH - 5° ... KH - 4°

That settles it - Out of Africa (see what I did there) and back into my own hemisphere. :fish:


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Decisions! Decisions! But I do find it easier to not try to beat nature! 
I found the way to get my wife out of liking one certain fish was to take her to a better shop where we saw lots of even nicer fish! Perhaps the wife likes Jack's because she knows them when she sees them but would like others that she just has not seen yet? 
Best of luck on changing her mind, though!!! Approach with caution!


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

She throws out an appeal and then restates that she wants this to be "my" tank and she'll be happy as long as I don't stock it with eels.

Just curious - should I continue with this journal (the name's a bit misleading now) or start a new one?


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

Maybe just a new title. This part is the beginning of the journey


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

mbkemp said:


> Maybe just a new title. This part is the beginning of the journey
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Agreed - the title can be changed


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Well if things are wide open now, I have heard that some people really like Rainbows in a planted tank.:wink2::wink2:


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Greggz said:


> Well if things are wide open now, I have heard that some people really like Rainbows in a planted tank.:wink2::wink2:


Definitely a nice fish and that may open up a whole new plan, so hang the title. Call it what you and the wife like and that is as it should be. There are hundreds of ways to go and one of those might be to combine some of the nicer cichlids with some of the other fish like rainbows who also can be a very interesting project. We sometimes get the idea that having cichlid will automatically rule out other fish but then those thoughts have to go down the drain when we think of angelfish who are often kept with a wide variety of other types of fish, even though they are cichlids. We rarely will find a natural body of water that only has one type of fish. Sometimes it's like the angelfish and neons and it doesn't work out well for the neons but we have lots more options for our tanks. 
I could like a tank with a big angel hanging around near some corner and looking up for lunch with an acara or rainbow cichlid or two hanging nearer the bottom and ducking under a rock, etc. when a school of rainbow passes? With space and places for everybody to hang out where they like, I see no problems with just picking out some fish with somewhat similar water and then going for the colors the wife might like. 
When it comes down to my fish, I treat them like roomies. If they tend to be okay and I like them, they can stay but if they grow up to be problems, they are replaced with little notice!!!! 
Actually, I often give the fish very little explanation. :grin2:


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

Greggz said:


> Well if things are wide open now, I have heard that some people really like Rainbows in a planted tank.:wink2::wink2:


Something told me that was coming.

Love the Rainbows, @Greggz, but they're just not MY thing.

---------------------------------

OK, so how do I go about changing the title?

Bump: 141 Gallon Planted [STRIKE]Mbuna[/STRIKE] S. Am Cichlid Journal


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Cichlid-140 said:


> Something told me that was coming.
> 
> Love the Rainbows, @Greggz, but they're just not MY thing.
> 
> ...


Alright, well it was worth a try.

Now to change the title, go edit your first post.

Click on "Go Advanced".

Then go change the title.

Now here's the important one most miss. You need to enter something into the "reason for editing" box. I usually just enter in "typo". Once you have done that once, you won't need to again. You can edit it as often as you want.

Now funny thing is that I kept an Mbuna tank many, many years ago. Very colorful and interesting fish. Eventually I got tired of the violence. But I get the appeal.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

I think I might have been just very lucky when I got started in African cichlids as I saw one of the peacocks and since blue is my thing, I went with a blue peacock first and then gradually moved into mbuna but set the tank in a way that made it work much better than some find. It was not so much aplan but more a matter of finance that led me to stock in small numbers and use lots of rocks. I had no money to waste but plenty of free rocks, so it went for quite some time until it became obvious the breeding was going to get me lots of fish and since I was working, I did not have the time for caring for them, so went into selling. But to expend the sales without having more tanks, I went into keeping some of the deep/open water fish (also blue!) but by then there was more info available and I could see that choosing and keeping the calm ones was going to be a big thing for me. That left me looking to the charts on expected aggression and choosing very carefully as I moved into keeping the combo, as I was told it would not work. 
I never had any deaths but there were times when I did have to work around the bumps and change fish when I picked the wrong folks. I gradually came around to looking at fish as individuals, rather than a group and found that I could "train" them to a limited extent. Which came about at near the same time as my planted tanks. I had grown to 13 tanks at that point and it gave me a chance to see a yellow lab raised in a tank where plants were viewed as food, would eat plants like the rest but if raised in a tank where others did not eat the plants, they also ignored them. 
I find, thinking very carefully about which fish and how to set the tank is a key tome being able to keep fish which are called totally incompatible with each other and also plants. I no longer breed and sell fish as the market and my need for extra money have changed but I still feel it can be worked out if we give it a really careful look. 
I now look at fish as I might people, give them each what they like and they are not as prone to doing all the things I don't like. Given a nice place to live, only the real thug will try to steal and cheat a neighbor out of his little shack? Same with people or fish, there are thugs who will still cheat and steal, even when they have more than they can possibly use. I just sort them out and get rid of them as soon as possible.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Cichlid-140 said:


> - I'm curious about the water parameters at your tap. Mine are quite low (dGH 0-1, dKH 1-2) which forces me into a big adjustment during a 50% water change just to bring the tank to the low end of advisable values. In order to bring the GH up to 6° I need to mix lake salts into 3L of tap, 3 separate times, so I can add it to the make up water as it's coming in. KH is adjusted at the same time but it seems a little easier but I think I just hit on the right amount of buffer to add early on. I can see this as getting old going forward. On top of that I've yet to arrive at the final value of GH I expected even after a few attempts. I'm doing water changes to bring the nitrates down since my cycle completed and using the opportunity to arrive at the recipe. I'm starting to question the wisdom of fighting the water I have in order to keep the category of fish I've chosen and perhaps a change in direction may be worth considering. I'll still need to do something but the change won't be as dramatic and may just involve some crushed coral in the sump. My wife is agreeable to Angels with some compatible softer water fish which would open up my options on plant selection as well.
> 
> Thoughts?


 You have the perfect size aquarium for beautiful Altum Angelfish (Pterophyllum altum) and perfect water right out of tap. You don’t have to do anything to KH and for GH I would add little Ca, 15 - 20 ppm. With source water like this you can have planted inert substrate and a drip system controlled by TDS.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

Edward said:


> You have the perfect size aquarium for beautiful Altum Angelfish (Pterophyllum altum) and perfect water right out of tap. You don’t have to do anything to KH and for GH I would add little Ca, 15 - 20 ppm. With source water like this you can have planted inert substrate and a drip system controlled by TDS.


I've been at this a while, off and on, but I've never dealt with water almost devoid of buffering. In the smaller tank it went to zero in a matter days after a water change and allowed the pH to drop to the high 4's. This was in a non-planted tank with no CO2. I'm completely out of my element in that kind of scenario. If something went south I'd be flying blind.

I appreciate the suggestion but this is one of the times I going to listen to that little voice that tells me to pass.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Your fish did not get into trouble because of low pH but because of ammonia poisoning. It would not happen in planted CO2 aquarium because the plants would suck up the NH4 faster than ice cream. 

Ok, I understand. There are many ways to increase KH. If you go with pH/KH/CO2 controller then you need to have exact KH amount added to the new changed water every time. Any KH variation makes the controller useless. 

Another way is to have non-inert calcareous substrate or coral in filter reversing pH drop by releasing KH. This also adds enough Ca. For this system CO2 flow meter works well. 

Either way you can still have the beautiful Altums.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

Edward said:


> Your fish did not get into trouble because of low pH but because of ammonia poisoning. It would not happen in planted CO2 aquarium because the plants would suck up the NH4 faster than ice cream.
> 
> Ok, I understand. There are many ways to increase KH. If you go with pH/KH/CO2 controller then you need to have exact KH amount added to the new changed water every time. Any KH variation makes the controller useless.
> 
> ...


Cost of stock is another issue. Reliable sources I've seen charge between $60 - $120 per fish. For a 5 fish group that gets pricey quick. I like rice and beans, just not for three meals a day. Anyway the CFO would not be happy and the couch isn't much to sleep on. That's if I could sleep wondering what might go wrong and kill $500 worth of livestock. 

Sources I looked at make stern warnings about how critical the tank conditions are for success and most (if not all) suspend any and all live arrival and similar warranties. When the folks that sell 'em are sending me signals to back off - well - I tend to listen.

I know it probably looks like my tap and Altums are a match made in heaven and I guess I could give up on other hobbies - it's just that eating and sleeping are two I'm really fond of. 

Considering all of that I guess I can say with confidence that Altums are off my list.

Thank you for your time and patience.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Edward said:


> You have the perfect size aquarium for beautiful Altum Angelfish


I've got say, those Altum's can be stunning. Have seen a few pics and videos of Altum tanks, and they are spectacular.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

BTW they ARE gorgeous!

....


Just not for me.

Ninja'd


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Edward said:


> Ok, I understand. There are many ways to increase KH. If you go with pH/KH/CO2 controller then you need to have exact KH amount added to the new changed water every time. Any KH variation makes the controller useless.


This is true. 

However, I look at it as a plus. 

I change the same amount of water, and add the same amount of K2CO3 every time. My KH is rock solid and my degassed pH is almost exactly 7.2 every single week. 

Even though I test it and note the value each week, it's really something I basically don't have to worry about. In my book, stable is a good thing. 

Then I have more time to be worrying and messing around with everything else!:wink2:


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Clichlids in planted tanks limit your options.

Angels, keyhole cichlids, cupids, rams, any of the dwarfs. The more colorful they are, the more aggressive.

I have been keeping/breeding keyhole cichlids and they are captivating from a personality standpoint, shoaling together most of the time. The only time they don't get along is when a pair forms and decides to breed, but if there is a larger, more dominant species in a tank, I don't think that would be an issue.

With a planted 140g tank I would have a severum, angels, keyholes. The big, impressive fish are likely to upset your aquascaping. Angels are about as impressive as you can get without impacting your plants.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

Edward said:


> ... Another way is to have non-inert calcareous substrate or coral in filter reversing pH drop by releasing KH. This also adds enough Ca. ...


Already in the plan. Just some Crushed Coral in a bag in the sump. My only concern is during water changes. 

But my tap should be close enough if the smaller tank is any indication. Just some Black Skirts in it for my wife to have around. I do ~50% every week and they take it in stride.

Bump: Kinda got my eyes on these. Just thinkin' the black would get lost in the back glass. But then I'm still planning on Jungle Val's back there.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Cichlid-140 said:


> Already in the plan. Just some Crushed Coral in a bag in the sump. My only concern is during water changes.


 The discarded portion of water contains KH and CO2 and the new incoming water has no KH and no CO2. That means that the old remaining aquarium water dictates the resulting pH. So your pH will not change. As you know, mixing buffered water with demineralized water does not change the buffered water pH. 

Also, we need to keep in mind that the coral’s pH “corrective activity” is not linear. It is very active at low pH and slow when reaching final pH. This is a perfect pH stabilizer. But when injected CO2 is involved the coral will be over compensating which will be creating undesirably high KH and must be monitored. The easiest is with proxy TDS measurement. 

Having said that, I think changing half water every week is unnecessary on large planted aquariums.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

Edward said:


> The discarded portion of water contains KH and CO2 and the new incoming water has no KH and no CO2. That means that the old remaining aquarium water dictates the resulting pH. So your pH will not change. As you know, mixing buffered water with demineralized water does not change the buffered water pH.
> 
> Also, we need to keep in mind that the coral’s pH “corrective activity” is not linear. It is very active at low pH and slow when reaching final pH. This is a perfect pH stabilizer. But when injected CO2 is involved the coral will be over compensating which will be creating undesirably high KH and must be monitored. The easiest is with proxy TDS measurement.
> 
> Having said that, I think changing half water every week is unnecessary on large planted aquariums.


What if instead of simply tossing a bag of CC in the sump I used a reactor feed by a timer that waited till 3-4 hours after the CO2 was off or some reasonable time to allow the pH to come back up? I could place a solenoid valve in-line with the feed source. I'll have one manifold port available after I setup the CO2.

Edit: Something like this. https://www.amazon.com/Akozon-Solenoid-Plastic-Electrical-Dispense/dp/B07JKX29TF/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1541634402&sr=8-5&keywords=1+2+inch+solenoid+valve+plastic


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Freshwater fish and plants in nature can go from pH 8 to pH 4 and back in an hour depending on rain and tannin deposits, it is nothing unusual. You don’t even need to monitor pH in an aquarium. Instead, pay attention to KH, TDS and essential plant nutrients. The cations we are dealing with are conductive that they will change TDS readings and that can be easily monitored as a proxy to sufficient plant nutrients dosing to water change ratio. 

Most plants don’t like high KH and most fish don’t breed in it. High KH and high TDS is a bad thing in terms of aquatic plants and most tropical fish (except African Cichlids).


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

Is there a way to stabilize the KH in light of CO2 injection? 
@Edward All I seem to get from you are roadblocks. My wife and I are getting very discouraged and seriously considering eating what I've spent on CO2 equipment and plants all together.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I just use baking soda to bring KH from 2 to 6. It takes 1/2tsp for each ten gallons of water changed. Worst case scenario, I forget to add the baking soda after a 50% wc and the KH drops from six to three.

Am I doing it wrong? Why is it so complicated?


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Cichlid-140 said:


> @Edward All I seem to get from you are roadblocks. My wife and I are getting very discouraged and seriously considering eating what I've spent on CO2 equipment and plants all together.


 I am trying to make it simpler and easier for you and you still insist on more unnecessary complications:


Cichlid-140 said:


> What if instead of simply tossing a bag of CC in the sump I used a reactor feed by a timer that waited till 3-4 hours after the CO2 was off or some reasonable time to allow the pH to come back up? I could place a solenoid valve in-line with the feed source. I'll have one manifold port available after I setup the CO2.
> 
> Edit: Something like this. https://www.amazon.com/Akozon-Solenoid-Plastic-Electrical-Dispense/dp/B07JKX29TF/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1541634402&sr=8-5&keywords=1+2+inch+solenoid+valve+plastic


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

ChrisX said:


> I just use baking soda to bring KH from 2 to 6. It takes 1/2tsp for each ten gallons of water changed. Worst case scenario, I forget to add the baking soda after a 50% wc and the KH drops from six to three.
> 
> Am I doing it wrong? Why is it so complicated?


Sounds like a plan. Before, after, or during?

Thanks


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Cichlid-140 said:


> Sounds like a plan. Before, after, or during?
> 
> Thanks


Ive done it each way. My only recommendation is to do large water change at end of light cycle so fluctuating co2 will have little effect. Lights are off so plants wont need it.

If you want to get fancy, seachem makes something called alkaline buffer..which is baking soda with some trace minerals. Ive used both, but for a large tank AB is expensive.

If i change 50% of the tank ph6.6 at lights off w ph 8.0 tap water, it goes up to...7.3...gets there several hours sooner than it would that night...The new water is added slowly over 30 minutes..the fish have never had a problem.

Rocket science it is not.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Cichlid-140 said:


> Is there a way to stabilize the KH in light of CO2 injection?
> 
> @Edward All I seem to get from you are roadblocks. My wife and I are getting very discouraged and seriously considering eating what I've spent on CO2 equipment and plants all together.


Yes, it's pretty easy to stabilize KH, but not with CC. I don't know of one serious planted tanker that does.

Use baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) or KHCO3 (potassium bicarbonate) or K2CO3 (potassium carbonate) to raise KH. Lot's of people do it without issue. Stable KH will make CO2 injection much easier. Easier to hit a stable target.

My advice is to search through the journals here, and look for people that have tanks that are similar to your goals. Their experience will help guide you through the process. Personally I have very little experience with Cichlids in a planted tank. I'd look for people that do. 

You can make this hobby as simple or complicated as you want it to be. All depends on your goals.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

ChrisX said:


> If you want to get fancy, seachem makes something called alkaline buffer..which is baking soda with some trace minerals. Ive used both, but for a large tank AB is expensive.


Already have plenty of the Victoria/Malawi Buffer from the Mbuna plan. That and a lighter shot of the Lake Salts for a small GH boost. That should work. Maybe I can get away with one pitcher during the refill. I'm back to treating on a water change just not as much. The more things change ...

Thanks

@Edward Thanks for the heads up on the KH/pH issues with the crushed coral with CO2. That probably saved me beaucoup headaches down the road.
@Greggz Like CrisX said this shouldn't be rocket science. Nothing alive in the tank yet except BB. That means I've got time to work this out.

Thanks again, all, and good night.

Bump:


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Cichlid-140 said:


> Already have plenty of the Victoria/Malawi Buffer from the Mbuna plan. That and a lighter shot of the Lake Salts for a small GH boost. That should work. Maybe I can get away with one pitcher during the refill. I'm back to treating on a water change just not as much. The more things change ...
> 
> Thanks
> 
> ...


To raise GH, I recommend Seachem Equilibrium. It has many traces that your plants will need and IME, isn't that expensive for a large volume of water. I haven't found any DIY product that is equivalent to Equilibrium.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

ChrisX said:


> To raise GH, I recommend Seachem Equilibrium. It has many traces that your plants will need and IME, isn't that expensive for a large volume of water. I haven't found any DIY product that is equivalent to Equilibrium.


I'm going to do a 90%+ water change tonight and make adjustments to the raw tap using what I have. (Seachem - Cichlid Lake Salt & Victoria/Malawi Buffer). I'll shoot for values of 3-4 dGH & 3-4 dKH. I'll be removing most if not all of the rock to be replaced with some more appropriate smooth river rock. I have a good source of non-carboniferous rock nearby. Once I have the amount I need to add I'll get the ppm values of everthing listed and post for evaluation. I'd like to use what I have if at all possible. If it turns out there are good reasons to go to Equilibrium then I'm in ... but i'll need to be convinced that there is a real need.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Cichlid-140 said:


> I'm going to do a 90%+ water change tonight and make adjustments to the raw tap using what I have. (Seachem - Cichlid Lake Salt & Victoria/Malawi Buffer). I'll shoot for values of 3-4 dGH & 3-4 dKH. I'll be removing most if not all of the rock to be replaced with some more appropriate smooth river rock. I have a good source of non-carboniferous rock nearby. Once I have the amount I need to add I'll get the ppm values of everthing listed and post for evaluation. I'd like to use what I have if at all possible. If it turns out there are good reasons to go to Equilibrium then I'm in ... but i'll need to be convinced that there is a real need.


After you get the KH and GH stable using what you have, ask Greggz about macro and micro nutrients that you will need for your plants. 

Alot of those advanced guys are rolling their own fertz.

Equilibrium adds iron and magnesium that my EI fertilizers don't have. I only mentioned it because its pretty cost effective and you might spend more getting those traces from other sources.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

ChrisX said:


> After you get the KH and GH stable using what you have, ask Greggz about macro and micro nutrients that you will need for your plants.
> 
> Alot of those advanced guys are rolling their own fertz.
> 
> Equilibrium adds iron and magnesium that my EI fertilizers don't have. I only mentioned it because its pretty cost effective and you might spend more getting those traces from other sources.


I've picked up the EI package from GLA. I've also bought a pound of 11% Iron DPTA from Greenway Biotech. 

I plan to try a DIY version of Dennis Wong's APT Complete. Got a topic on it HERE. https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/1282093-dennis-wongs-apt-complete.html 

burr740 and Edward pitched in.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

I did the water change last night but didn't get to the amendments (alarm clock goes off at 5:00AM). I'll get to that tonight. Same GH & KH this morning. No surprises there.

Here's a question - The Cichlid Lake Salt additive I have is mostly Chlorides and Sulfates (Ingredients: magnesium chloride, calcium chloride, potassium sulfate, sodium chloride, aluminum sulfate, iron sulfate, potassium iodide). Will this be an issue considering the expected planting list (Jungle Val's, Java Fern, Anubias, and three varieties of Swords)?


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

Well here's the break down. Seachem Cichlid Lake Salt
Tank Volume in Liters	587 ------ mg added 50000 4dGH, 4dKH, ... pH - 7.71

Guaranteed Analysis -- % --------- ppm(calc)

Calcium (min) ------- 3.24% ------ 2.759795571
Calcium (max) ------ 3.50% ------ 2.981260647
Magnesium (min) -- 11.83% ---- 10.07666099
Potassium (min) --- 10.08% ------ 8.586030664
Sodium (min) ------- 3.53% ------ 3.00681431
Sodium (max) ------ 3.75% ------ 3.194207836
Aluminum (min) ---- 0.09% ------ 0.076660988
Iodine (min) -------- 0.0020% --- 0.001703578
Iron (min) ---------- 0.0200% --- 0.017035775
Selenium (min) ---- 0.0000% --- 1.70358E-06
Zinc (min) --------- 0.0007% ---- 0.000596252

Coming up short on Ca. Too may Chlorides. too many Sulfates. _{too many Sulfates?} I'm getting punchy_ Too many reasons not to try doing this with the wrong stuff. Lesson learned. Equilibrium its is. It's going on order today

Any way post 50% water change today ...
4 dGH, 4.5dKH, ... pH 7.72 ...
That's encouraging.


Apparently a large portion of the BB was on/in the sandstone I removed. Cycle has been restarted. It'll probably recover in a couple of days.

All in all I call this a success as a learning experience. After a few more water changes with the Equilibrium we should be good to go. I'll probably wait till after our Thanksgiving trip to start the plants.


FYI - I replaced the current tank pic in the first post.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

New rock work photos. 

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1282533-141-gallon-planted-s-am-cichlid-journal-%5B-mbuna%5D.html#post11133947


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Very informative journal, especially the details and pictures of the build. I appreciate your efforts and experience as it will help me with my own.

Now you made me wobble again on Waterboox vs Red Sea. Both are a chunk of change for me and I am being too smart for my own good. Waterbox is new and Red Sea has a solid reputation. Quality and Customer Service is what got me worried.

My other concern is the central drain and return: is the resulting circulation and flow going to be a headache, especially with plants, and, say, Angels? I like the 1200+ gph but not at the cost of Angels swimming like Potamotrygon and growing like baby tears.

Keep up the journal!


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

OVT said:


> Very informative journal, especially the details and pictures of the build. I appreciate your efforts and experience as it will help me with my own.
> 
> Now you made me wobble again on Waterboox vs Red Sea. Both are a chunk of change for me and I am being too smart for my own good. Waterbox is new and Red Sea has a solid reputation. Quality and Customer Service is what got me worried.
> 
> ...


I hear you on the flow with Angels and as chance would have it I'm probably going with Angels along with Electric Blue Acara's and either Red Spot Gold Severums or Red Shoulder Severums. It'll probably be filled out with some Dwarf Gouramis and Giant Danios. 

The new digital DC pumps really help there. Size for max and just turn them down as needed.

I preferred the dual side facing returns on the Waterbox vs. the Red Sea. When I was looking at the Red Sea I was already searching for a splitter for the forward facing return. I'm planning on Jungle Vals along the back and I want the side facing flow to carry them to sides and around toward the front.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

I purchased the Bayite Temperature controller from Amazon vendor CrocSee and developed a problem. In a two week period the controller circuit breaker tripped shutting off my heaters. I contacted them and they said that even though the calculated load was ~9 amps on a 10 amp breaker the heaters were probably hitting 10 amps at some point (I'm thinking inrush on an AC peak). Anyway they are sending me the upscale 15 amp version free of charge. NO RETURN REQUIRED! 
roud:roud::bounce:

Still trying to get the water right. I think I still have some of the M/V Buffer messing with me. Need to get this behind me and move on to getting plants in. Will be performing another complete water change tonight.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

The new temp controller came yesterday and I've done the Ice Point/Vapor Point tests. Ice point read 31.4° and Vapor point read 209.4°. I've entered a 1.1° calibration offset, a setpoint of 79.0°, and a deadband of 0.2°. The cal offset is tuned to be accurate at the 79.0° setpoint.

I also had my CO2 bottle filled today at the local Wesco. 5# bottle for $8.80 with tax. My old bottle was out of certification so I had to turn it in for trade and pay the cert. fee ($15 +$1.50 tax) but came out of the deal replacing the old steel bottle for an aluminum one. Very nice. Now I need to mount the Dywer Flowmeter and hook everything up.

After the full water change I still have a pH of 7.8 with GH and KH both at 3. I've ordered some ZooMed Frog Moss to put in the sump in hopes of bringing the pH into the low 7's. I don't want to chase the pH so I'm hoping the moss will help shift it down to something more desirable without constant intervention ... We'll see.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

*CO2 System Checkout*

I'm using and old Victor 450D regulator with a Parker solenoid. I purchased a 16/22mm inline diffuser and attached it to the inner port on the accessory manifold tee'd off the return. I needed to adjust the tubing size up from the 1/2" max on the manifold port to the 16/22mm (5/8" ID) dimensions of the diffuser. I purchased 10' 5/8" ID hose and cut a short section for the inlet and used the remainder as a reactor to facilitate dissolving the CO2 before it enters the tank. Including the 5' final return path from the return pump to the inlet nozzles in the tank, there is a 17' path prior to final delivery to the tank.

I did a preliminary pressure test which failed at the regulator. I guess teflon tape can't last forever. I disassembled the inlet and outlet sections and replaced the tape and a retest is underway.

Pictures on the equipment post dated 12/2/2018 https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1282533-141-gallon-planted-s-am-cichlid-journal-%5B-mbuna%5D.html#post11133947

Bump: Pressure test looking good 12/3/2018 6:30 AM no pressure loss detected. I forgot ot mention I'm doing the first degassing of a tank water sample. Tonight I'll make a first test run on CO2 to see where I need to be on the flowmeter.

Bump: [12/4/2018] 24Hr degassed water sample pH - 7.97. I added one bag of pillow moss last night and will check every 24 hours to track the effect.

Bump: [12/6/2018] Took a sample last night to degas. Tonight the pH is 7.8. I'll let it rest for 24-48 more hours and see where it settles.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

Co2 test data is in.

Degassed sample pH - 7.52
pH after 60 minutes - 6.09
ph after 90 minutes - 5.94

50cc/min on the Dwyer flowmeter.

Pictures here:
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1282533-141-gallon-planted-s-am-cichlid-journal-%5B-mbuna%5D.html#post11133947


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Another couple species you could consider for Angels that are spectacular but less expensive are _ Pterophyllum leopoldi_ or _pterophyllum manacapuru_. Both are much more forgiving of water parameters in terms of tds and kh/dh. But, all Angels, like discus, need excellent water quality- weekly water changes. 

I am llooking into a source for _Pterophyllum altum_ myself. I would put them in my discus tank. 

Here is the leopoldii

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=__27PxxtPbk

manacapuru
https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/...=3014c1ad98b4ed3e797160621775282f&action=view


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

Discusluv said:


> Another couple species you could consider for Angels that are spectacular but less expensive are _ Pterophyllum leopoldi_ or _pterophyllum manacapuru_. Both are much more forgiving of water parameters in terms of tds and kh/dh. But, all Angels, like discus, need excellent water quality- weekly water changes.
> 
> I am llooking into a source for _Pterophyllum altum_ myself. I would put them in my discus tank.
> 
> ...


I have to say I'm impressed but my wife has her heart set on some Koi's. We'll probably get about 3 & 3 of them and some other variety. I'd kinda like some pearlscale.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

I personally would not buy anything from this place but, at least, you can see some pictures:

https://www.azgardens.com/product/pterophyllum-altum-peruvian-wild-angelfish/


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

I hope you have better luck with PP-8's than I did. mines stopped working after like 1.5? years. The controller still worked but the wave maker itself stopped working.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> I hope you have better luck with PP-8's than I did. mines stopped working after like 1.5? years. The controller still worked but the wave maker itself stopped working.


Don't know about others but when I go for a bargain brand I'm OK with the gamble with a reduced MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures). I could have spent 6-8x as much for a Ecotech Vortech or replace this one 2-4 times (maybe). Odds are they won't go out together so, in the case that one does, I wait for a replacement. To me at least, it's not a biggie.

As for the return pump, that's a different thing altogether. I bought a spare up front. It's sitting, in the box, in my tank stuff cabinet, in the garage. If any one goes out I'll still have sufficient flow to avoid a catastrophe.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

*At Last - Plants*

First Plants post in the main PLANTS tracking post *HERE*.

They should arrive Saturday.:smile2:


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

Lighting question.

Here's a thread on my light.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/1281803-aqua-air-aa-1200-can-correct.html

Not stated in the thread is that the light has three channels that are individually controllable. 

6500K - rows #1 & 5
Royal Blue - rows #2 & 4
Special - row 3

From the discussion the best estimation puts ~50 par at the substrate. It has ramping capability and I'd like to get a few opinions as to when to start CO2 with the ramp in mind. 

My thinking is to ramp from 0% to 100% in 6 hours and hold at 100% for 3 hours ramping down for 3 hours to 0% except for a 3 hour period of 1% Royal Blue purely for night aesthetics while we're watching TV.

Two questions:


Does the ramp profile sound good? If not how would you change it?
Sugestions on when to turn CO2 ON and OFF?


I made a chart of the profile. Hope it helps. I offset the Royal Blue and Special channels at the 100% period just to make them visible on the chart. They'd be at 100% with the 6500K channel.

C-140


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Turn on your CO2, and test the pH to see when you've had a drop of 1. Then ramp your lights on. Depending on the delivery method, it might be several hours before pH has dropped by one. In my tank, the CO2 turns on five hours before lights on.

The ramp should be for aesthetics, not based on how much CO2 is in the tank.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

I can achieve a 1.5 pH drop in ~ 60 minutes see post #61

So you say ignore the very low PAR at the beginning of the ramp and go for full 1 point drop by beginning of ramp @ 6:00 AM?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Cichlid-140 said:


> I can achieve a 1.5 pH drop in ~ 60 minutes see post #61
> 
> So you say ignore the very low PAR at the beginning of the ramp and go for full 1 point drop by beginning of ramp @ 6:00 AM?


None of the successful aquascapers have data or play around with the idea of turning on the lights before the full pH drop has been achieved.

Because its impossible to predict how a low Co2/ low light scenario at the beginning of the day will influence plant growth, I think you should hold the Co2 variable constant and make sure it is constant through the entire light cycle. There will still be significant work adjusting the light, but that should be the only variable.

IMO, you will find a "look" that you like that is a combination of the three channels and you should use that "look" all the time. Ramp on and ramp off, but the ramping should happen relatively quickly so you can quantify how much light the plants are getting.

IOW, convoluted CO2 and lighting strategies are only going to make things more difficult.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

ChrisX said:


> None of the successful aquascapers have data or play around with the idea of turning on the lights before the full pH drop has been achieved.
> 
> Because its impossible to predict how a low Co2/ low light scenario at the beginning of the day will influence plant growth, I think you should hold the Co2 variable constant and make sure it is constant through the entire light cycle. There will still be significant work adjusting the light, but that should be the only variable.
> 
> ...


I see your point.

The ramp profile is partially an effort to accommodate the aesthetics since this is in the living room and my wife's opinion is part of the equation. She'd like lights during the day and I'd like to see them for at least a short time when I get home from work. What I'm shooting for is a photo period that would approximate the photo energy that would be present during a straight 6 hour 100% ON time frame.

I may try ON at 5:00 AM at first and then 'walk it up' 10 min. at a time at 2 week intervals till I see some negative effects and adjust it back down.

Definite food for thought. Thanks.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Cichlid-140 said:


> I see your point.
> 
> The ramp profile is partially an effort to accommodate the aesthetics since this is in the living room and my wife's opinion is part of the equation. She'd like lights during the day and I'd like to see them for at least a short time when I get home from work. What I'm shooting for is a photo period that would approximate the photo energy that would be present during a straight 6 hour 100% ON time frame.
> 
> ...


Put a siesta in the middle of the day. My light schedule is 4-2(off)-3 then fade out another 2 hours.

Siesta can be a very low setting with just enough light to see fish.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

ChrisX said:


> Put a siesta in the middle of the day. My light schedule is 4-2(off)-3 then fade out another 2 hours.
> 
> Siesta can be a very low setting with just enough light to see fish.


Sounds great if I could with the programmable points available. If I did the Siesta I have to give up the moonlight period at night. That's one of my wife's favorites. I don't want to put it on a separate timer either. 

The Micmol is programmed using inflection points. eg. In the chart the point @ 6:00 AM is called 'Sunrise' I can define the time and power level for each channel. The next point is called 'Midday'. When these are different the system ramps between them. To hold a value for any time the inflection points that bracket the period are programmed to the same intensity.

'Tis a dilemma to be sure.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

Well, it's been way too long but at least I have a new tank photo up on Post#1. As you can see I'm battling diatoms. I need to do some other up dates but life has been a bit busy to manage photos (I have some) and I'm knockin' around the idea of restructuring the photos already up to make things easier.

Any who ... New plants from Wetplants

10 - Jungle Vals
1 - Amazon Sword (they sent 5)
1 - Green Melon Sword
2 - Ozelot Sword
2 - Anubias Coffeefolia
3 - Anubias Nana
2 - Java Fern (Edit)

... and fish ...

First round (B&B Pet Stop, Mobile)

9 - Giant Danio
2 - Dwarf Gouramis
2 - Honey Gouramis

Second round (B&B Pet Stop, Mobile ~ two fer Tuesday)

2 - Med Black Lace Angel
2 - Sm Med Yellow Koi Angel
2 - Juvenile Lemon colored Angel (One loss)
11 - Nerite Snails (All they had)

I'll let these grow out for a while before the next round which will probably be Red Spot Gold Severums (2 or 3).

All for now.

C-140


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

Cichlid-140 said:


> The pic below will hopefully reflect the most current state of the tank. [Pic update 1/16/2019]
> 
> 20190112_190116 by pat w1, on Flickr


Good looking tank, I like the sand and the rocks. It's unique, something you don't normally see.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

Ken Keating1 said:


> Good looking tank, I like the sand and the rocks. It's unique, something you don't normally see.


My wife and I discussed it. The tank is in the living room which has dark wood floors. We needed to go light to help brighten the room especially at night. The large round rock on the left with the horizontal striations is one we had in a previous tank. When I switched from the plan for Mbuna to SA Cichlids the round riverstone idea just seemed to fit. It's not an ADA worthy scape but we both like it and so do the fish, or so it seems. It's easy to keep, just move some rocks to clear the sand and vac - rinse & repeat.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Cichlid-140 said:


> My wife and I discussed it. The tank is in the living room which has dark wood floors. We needed to go light to help brighten the room especially at night. The large round rock on the left with the horizontal striations is one we had in a previous tank. When I switched from the plan for Mbuna to SA Cichlids the round riverstone idea just seemed to fit. It's not an ADA worthy scape but we both like it and so do the fish, or so it seems. It's easy to keep, just move some rocks to clear the sand and vac - rinse & repeat.


You landed on a key point to this hobby (or any hobby really). What matters is that you are enjoying it; the looks, maintenance, and overall process of creating and keeping a planted tank. Very nicely done!


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

Grobbins48 said:


> You landed on a key point to this hobby (or any hobby really). What matters is that you are enjoying it; the looks, maintenance, and overall process of creating and keeping a planted tank. Very nicely done!


Yeah, the basic idea was to establish a section of a riverbed. Hopefully as the Vals and the Swords grow in there'll be a bit of a cascading vegetation effect toward the back leading to the illusion there's more that just isn't visible. 

Everything is producing. 

The Anubias and the Java Fern are showing new growth. 

The Vals are getting long enough now to trail on the surface in places and some have already put out runners. 

The Swords are really coming in nice with good mottling on the Ozelot. There's some red veining on the Amazons and a couple have the plant-let stalks (what's the official term for that?). The Mellon is going a nice red and looked really good till the diatoms started covering the leaves. 

I've got to work on/wait out the diatoms till they pass. The Nerites are doing a good job clearing them out. Before I put them in the big red stone in the center was absolutely covered and as of a day ago it was cleared completely. the stone under it and to the right is clear as of this morning as well as a few leaves on the Anubias. Next 'Two Fer' at B&B I'll get a dozen more and that should be enough to finish clearing the majority of it and leave just enough for a sense of realism.

I'll try to get some pics I have posted in the next couple of days.

Later,

C-140


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

This is my latest iteration of my CO2 system.




























CO2 is through a GLA Gro-1 regulator @44psi through a Dwyer RMA-150-SSV; then to a GLA in-line diffuser.

Water flow is from the manifold tap; to the in-line diffuser; through 20 feet of 5/8" ID hose; through 3/4"PVC delivery assembly to the inlet of the return pump in the sump. Total CO2 travel distance in forced turbulent flow is approximately 27 feet. It makes for a nice dwell time reactor. Still a little mist in the tank but it's not enough to bother my wife or myself.

I'm getting about a 1.2 drop in pH from a degassed sample.

Still fighting diatoms, probably won't get much relief till I can get some more Nerites (2/12/2019).


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

I've neglected the journal for a while. Busy with other stuff but had to post this.

Two of my new Electric Blue Acaras are expecting. And putting on a show. Below are links to: first, the two protecting the eggs on a Melon Sword leaf; second the lip locking behavior that according to my research is benign and part of mating behaviour. I had to record the lip locking from a distance or they would break it off and return to the eggs. That's why the clip is grainy; I had to zoom in a good bit. 

One article stated they mate for life.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Cichlid-140 said:


> I've neglected the journal for a while. Busy with other stuff but had to post this.
> 
> Two of my new Electric Blue Acaras are expecting. And putting on a show. Below are links to: first, the two protecting the eggs on a Melon Sword leaf; second the lip locking behavior that according to my research is benign and part of mating behaviour. I had to record the lip locking from a distance or they would break it off and return to the eggs. That's why the clip is grainy; I had to zoom in a good bit.
> 
> ...


Congrats! Nice looking pair.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

Discusluv said:


> Congrats! Nice looking pair.


I noticed the eggs when I was doing a vacuuming after a WC. I tried to get some detritus near-by and Papa or Mama, which ever was free swimming at the time, was having none of that "hose thing" near the eggs and attacked. They seem to do the lip lock dance often and then go back to guarding the eggs. They really are very attentive. One will hover over the eggs while the other patrols then they'll tag out and switch jobs.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

Thought I'd up-date the expecting Acaras. They hatched a while back (last week). My wife and I thought they had been eaten but Mom was still hanging around the nest she had dug out next to Amazon Sword root crown. My wife was bummed 'cause she thought Mom was in mourning for her "lost" babies. Lo and behold a couple of days later what do I see but a whole bunch of little specs skittering around the nest. I've run some NLS Grow through my coffee/spice grinder to get it down to a powder and I'm trying to get some in there at least once or twice a day using a small syringe but Mom is not happy about anyone or anything coming near her brood.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

Well that was over quick. Angels got to them. Now only a handful left. I wouldn't be surprized if there were none by morning.

BTW, New tank pic in the first post.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

The tank looks spotless and very bright.

Have you had a chance to plant vals? Keeping the fry alive next to Angels is next to impossible. Maybe a back corner with moss / hornwort / Süsswassertang would give them a better chance next time. How are your Acaras with plants?


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

OVT said:


> The tank looks spotless and very bright.
> 
> *It only looks spotless if I don't take closeups. The Nerites have helped a lot. A week ago most every thing was covered in diatoms. The mollies have cleared away a good bit, too. We wanted a riverbed look and needed a bright appearance for the living room. The PFS seemed to fit the bill. The PFS is a challenge to keep clean and Mom attacking the vacuum hose doesn't make it any easier.*
> 
> ...



Responses in body.


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