# Substrate idea?



## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

I have had good success with plain unscented "special kitty" brand cat litter from Walmart mixed with Miracle grow organic choice,and peat.60% miracle grow,30% cat litter,10% pure sphagnum peat (no additives).
Capped with Black diamond blasting media.
I don't need any calcium supplement for my water is fairly hard from the tap.
I add iron found in trace mineral mix CSM+B.
Also dose macro nutrient's NPK once a week.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi HDBenson,

All of my tanks use some variety of Montmorillonite clay as the substrate. I use Soilmaster Select, Turface Pro League, and Safe-T-Sorb #7941; all have the beneficial high CEC properties that characterize the Montmorillonite clays.

My first tanks were just plan Montmorillonite clay with some iron pyrite cinders sprinkled on the bottom layer. I relied on my EI nutrients plus the weekly addition of a GH Booster to keep my dGH above 4.0 and some additional liquid iron to keep my plants healthy. The plant roots do seek out the iron pyrite cinders and latch onto them so it seems the plants do recieve some nutrients from them....the Laterite would do the same thing. 

My last new set-up was my 75 gallon planted. I "pre-loaded" the Safe-T-Sorb #7941 with GH Booster (basically CaSO4 + MgSO4+K2SO4) to avoid having to heavily dose my tank with GH Booster for several months to maintain the hardness level. Instead of the oyster shell you might consider a low Mg (less than 5% Mg will provide better dissolution) dolomite granules as an alternative to provide some Mg along with the Ca.

10g; no CO2









20g; no CO2









75g; w/CO2 (two weeks after planting)









45g; w/CO2









30g; w/CO2


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## HDBenson (Jan 26, 2015)

Thanks guys! roadmaster, so you are using it in a modified MTS? I'm looking more along the lines of this as a stand alone mix, Montmorillonite + Laterite + Calcium. I'm already utilizing soil-based substrates in two of my tanks and currently dry-starting a third soil tank with a kitty litter cap. Seattle, I think recall a thread regarding Kitty litter from this forum(perhaps APC) where you mentioned a decrease in KH/pH/Gh(I don't remember which one) from using JUST Montmorillonite. Am I correct? Anyway, so gleaning from what you both have said: A good pre-soaking of CaSO4 + MgSO4 + K2SO4 and the addition of Mg dolomite(to help maintain Gh/KH/pH). Would adding a liquid Fe supplement to the substrate(already containing Laterite) "bath" be beneficial or would this be an Fe overload? Seattle, do you still EI dose micros/micros in those tanks or, have you found the amounts in the substrate to be sufficient to only dose one or the other(micros/macros)?

Montmorillonite clay
Laterite clay
Mg dolomite granules
GH booster pre-soaking


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

I recently used a concoction of red clay, mont.clay, dolomite, KCL and osmocote in a new tank I setup. I used it under Ada Aqua soil, the idea was to make the nutrients in the ada last longer. Don't know if it will work, but it will definitively not hurt anything.

Just keep an eye out for PO4 adsorption. Both Laterite (red clay, no?) and mont. clay is High CEC and will adsorb nutrients for some time. I myself is having that problem at the moment, and a fellow forum member commented he had the same problem when he used laterite/mont.clay. With the ADA beeing high CEC and adsorbing PO4 too, I had to dose 8ppm PO4 pr day for about 2 weeks, and still the test read 0ppm 24 hours later. Now i'm dosing 4ppm every other day and read about 0.5-1ppm after 24 hours.

Edit: I used Calcium bentonite clay though, not Sodium Bentonite which you are mentioning. Didn't know what the added Sodium might do, so I went with the Calcium.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

HDBenson said:


> Seattle, I think recall a thread regarding Kitty litter from this forum(perhaps APC) where you mentioned a decrease in KH/pH/Gh(I don't remember which one) from using JUST Montmorillonite. Am I correct? Anyway, so gleaning from what you both have said: A good pre-soaking of CaSO4 + MgSO4 + K2SO4 and the addition of Mg dolomite(to help maintain Gh/KH/pH). Would adding a liquid Fe supplement to the substrate(already containing Laterite) "bath" be beneficial or would this be an Fe overload? Seattle, do you still EI dose micros/micros in those tanks or, have you found the amounts in the substrate to be sufficient to only dose one or the other(micros/macros)?
> 
> Montmorillonite clay
> Laterite clay
> ...


Hi HDBenson,

You remember correctly, when I use any of the Montmorillonite clay materials as a substrate I have a decrease in dKH (and resulting PH) and dGH. Since I have very soft tap water the effect is very apparent. The effect of lowering my dKH and to some degree my dGH can continue for several months until equilibrium is reached.

The suggested low Mg percentage dolomite (<5% Mg) will provide both Ca and Mg. The pre-soaking of CaSO4 + MgSO4 + K2SO4 reduced the timeframe that the substrate substantially lowered the hardness in my tanks (now I add GH Booster weekly just to replenish what the plants use).

If using the Laterite I would not add additional iron to the substrate. My micros that are part of the regular EI dosing regime provide most of my iron/Fe requirements. The only other time I add iron/Fe is if the plants are showing signs of an Fe deficiency.

Yes, I still dose my macros and micros per the EI dosing method.

75 gallon today


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## HDBenson (Jan 26, 2015)

Thank you Malakian, it is actually Sodium and not Silicate! Montmorillonite (aka Bentonite) has trace levels of Silicon. I got it confused. But, I'm wondering about kittly litter (Sodium Montmorillonite) due to it's price and availability. Yes, Laterite is a red clay, but I'm curious about the use of Laterite since it is fired already( giving it its CEC properties), you did not mention whether the red clay you are using is fired already or, not. Yes, both of these clays both adsorb and absorb. That is why I was interested in these clays. The ability to absorb the initial nutrients during the soaking and slowly releasing these BACK into the water column. So you are having to ADD Phosphates then. Noted. Thank you Malakian!

Bump: Thank you Seattle. Do you scale down your dosing? AND, everyone of your tanks are great! I'm jealous! The DSM I mentioned in my second post has Kitty litter as the cap as I mentioned and I really like the look of it. I like how dark it is but not black!


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

HDBenson said:


> Thank you Malakian, it is actually Sodium and not Silicate!


I said Sodium bentonite ^^


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## HDBenson (Jan 26, 2015)

Malakian said:


> I said Sodium bentonite ^^


I'm sorry if I confused you Malakian! I was giving you credit for using the correct form of the clay. I originally referred to the Sodium Bentonite as SILICATE Montmorillonite(Bentonite is commonly called and often used interchangeably with Montmorillonite) as opposed to the correct form - Sodium Bentonite(Montmorillonite).


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## ROYWS3 (Feb 1, 2014)

I've use plain clay kitty litter in the past and got good results but it got really "mucky". As the other Roy mentioned, saf-t-sorb, Turface, etc. will provide you with similar results but much less mess.


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## HDBenson (Jan 26, 2015)

Ah, thank you, other Roy!


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## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

roadmaster said:


> I have had good success with plain unscented "special kitty" brand cat litter from Walmart .


I tried that brand when we had a cat and it turned into mud on me, good thing I was rinsing it when I found out:hihi:

I use MGOCPS with a Safe-T-Sorb cap, though the STS does drop the Gh and kH in the tank.


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## latchdan (Sep 7, 2007)

FatherLandDescendant said:


> I tried that brand when we had a cat and it turned into mud on me, good thing I was rinsing it when I found out:hihi:
> 
> I use MGOCPS with a Safe-T-Sorb cap, though the STS does drop the Gh and kH in the tank.


Really? After 3 months my STS pure tank stopped sucking GH and KH.


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## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

latchdan said:


> Really? After 3 months my STS pure tank stopped sucking GH and KH.


That's good to know, I'm about at that 3 month mark with that tank:hihi:


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

FatherLandDescendant said:


> I tried that brand when we had a cat and it turned into mud on me, good thing I was rinsing it when I found out:hihi:
> 
> I use MGOCPS with a Safe-T-Sorb cap, though the STS does drop the Gh and kH in the tank.


 I used the special kitty cat litter mixed with soil and capped with black diamond.(didn't rinse nothing cept the black diamond).
Did not much care what the cat litter did in the mix, and am near certain the soil turned to mud as well.
As stand alone substrate,I might select the safety sorb.


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## Donald Corbett (Apr 1, 2015)

Clay litter has been a messy disaster for me since day one. I will never try that stuff again. If not cleaned extremely thoroughly it's a muddy mess that stirs up very easily. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Donald Corbett said:


> Clay litter has been a messy disaster for me since day one. I will never try that stuff again. If not cleaned extremely thoroughly it's a muddy mess that stirs up very easily.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 No issues if you cap it,lot's of folks use it mixed with soil and then cap it. (high CEC).
Not sure why you would rinse it if your gonna be burying it.
Sure,,if you are one who frequently moves plant's,then substrate will cause clouding mess each time you pull up plant's, but so too will most substrates to some degree.A couple big water changes after moving plant's is big help.
Been using the cat litter for a couple year's now without any issues.
I seldom move the plant's.


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## HDBenson (Jan 26, 2015)

Thank you for all the input so far. I'm not so concerned with the aesthetics of the litter so much as its CEC and ability as a growing medium. I'm a substrate scrreener/sifter/rinser. I have found with the Kitty Diggins brand of litter(even cheaper than Special Kitty at my Wal-Mart) that this doesn't break down very much. At least has not thus far in my dry start that stays pretty wet. I've used it as a substrate cap over MTS in a "snail jar" without rinsing it and the silt settled quickly. Just my experience as a cap so far.


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## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

Donald Corbett said:


> Clay litter has been a messy disaster for me since day one. I will never try that stuff again. If not cleaned extremely thoroughly it's a muddy mess that stirs up very easily.



Might I suggest Safe-T-Sorb, it doesn't turn to mud.

I didn't rinse it when I put it in my 29gal low tech tank, it was cloudy, VERY cloudy when I first filled the tank, but it settles out in less then a day


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## HDBenson (Jan 26, 2015)

FatherLandDescendant said:


> Might I suggest Safe-T-Sorb, it doesn't turn to mud.
> 
> I didn't rinse it when I put it in my 29gal low tech tank, it was cloudy, VERY cloudy when I first filled the tank, but it settles out in less then a day


I learned from reading about Montmorillonite that it is actually used as a "green" flocculant in agricultural/ornamental ponds.


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## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

HDBenson said:


> I learned from reading about Montmorillonite that it is actually used as a "green" flocculant in agricultural/ornamental ponds.


Looks great in a tank:hihi:


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## HDBenson (Jan 26, 2015)

I don't know how Special Kitty looks but the brand I'm using looks GREAT! Mostly a dark grey, kind of like shale with some lighter pieces mixed in here and there. It holds its form well so far. I haven't picked up any Laterite yet so I'm waiting till my next trip to get the Laterite and GH booster. Would presoaking the substrate mix with EI be beneficial or, should I just rely on column dosing it?


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## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

HDBenson said:


> I don't know how Special Kitty looks but the brand I'm using looks GREAT! Mostly a dark grey, kind of like shale with some lighter pieces mixed in here and there. It holds its form well so far. I haven't picked up any Laterite yet so I'm waiting till my next trip to get the Laterite and GH booster. Would presoaking the substrate mix with EI be beneficial or, should I just rely on column dosing it?


Here's a couple of pics of STS, I like the natural looking browns better myself. It starts of lighter at first and darkens up after a short bit.

I don't know about kitty litter, assume it's the same, but I've had to supplement my kH & gH with baking soda and a gH booster on that tank. It a MGOCPS/STS cap so the only thing I do as far as the sub goes are root tabs for the swords and crypts.


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## Donald Corbett (Apr 1, 2015)

Here's a photo using special kitty (walmart unscented) cat litter. Clean it until you feel like you've cleaned your life away or it will look something like this. 











After a ton of gravel siphoning it works pretty well with substrate ferts. 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jeffh129 (Jan 24, 2004)

I am considering using Safe T Sorb as my entire substrate, with maybe Laterite and O+ sprinkled on the very bottom of the tank prior to adding the STS. How does that sound? Also, how does the STS hold plants? Do the plants stay in place or do they tend to float out like when using EcoComplete. Thank you.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

jeffh129 said:


> I am considering using Safe T Sorb as my entire substrate, with maybe Laterite and O+ sprinkled on the very bottom of the tank prior to adding the STS. How does that sound? Also, how does the STS hold plants? Do the plants stay in place or do they tend to float out like when using EcoComplete. Thank you.


Hi jeffh129,

I use Safe-t-sorb #7941 in my 10g, 20g, and 75g with very good results. I don't use either Laterite or Osmocote Plus under the substrate but if you do I suggest moderation.

As to how well STS #7941 hold plants I would save 'average'. Certainly not as well as gravel or sands; about the same as ADA Aquasoils or any of the other calcined montmorillonite clay materials with the possible of Seachem Flourite with seems heavier.


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