# Unmineralized Top Soil?



## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

Yep I use non-fertilized top soil in all my big tanks (55+ gal) but make sure it's not from a big box store there stuff is almost all pine bark which is bad for aquariums. Go to a landscaping or orchard supply store and get a 50lb bag of non-fert'ed soil for $4 or $5 (it will say that) and cap it with PFS or something to that effect (SMS, Turface, etc).

I like to add a dusting of sphagnum peat moss (lowers pH), potash (for potassium), and Iron Chelate 10% (Fe) to the bottom of the tank before adding the soil just for a bit of the benefits that MTS gives you to jump start the plants. You can get those at the same place you get your soil for pennies on the dollar.

- Brad


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## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

My sister just picked up some topsoil from WalMart. Here's what it says on the bag:
Earthgro Topsoil (the bag is white with red on it)
Ingredients: This is regionally formulated from organic and inorganic materials derived from one or more of the following: peat, forest products, compost, ash, sand, or native topsoil


Does this sound okay or should I get something else?


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

No nothing from Wal-Mart is going to be good it's all going to be for terrestrial planting.
By 'forest products' it means mostly pine bark.

- Brad


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## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

Why is pine bark bad for aquariums?


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## accordztech (Dec 6, 2004)

i did alot of research on nonmineralized top soil i picked some up but i forgot the name and it had like 3 ingrediants in it.

I talked to a few people on here who done it and helped me in finding what I needed. Then im going to use bonemeal, kelp meal, and greensand as a underlayer and top it off with sand

I think it was kellogs from lowes. Ill get you some pics tomorrow.


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

if anything just get a small bag of organic potting soil from lowes. diana walsted(the starter of the wave) uses this and has no problems. infact im using it in my 48 inch 30 gallon tank. i just ploped it in and capped with sand like you want to and well there you go.


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

Because it can cloud and algae bloom your water column, due to the pine bark (which does nothing for aquarium plants) and the terrestrial fertilizers they add just like with a bag of Miracle Gro there simply not made for aquariums. I recommend landscaping and orchard supply stores because there easy to find and have the cheapest soil ($4-$5 for a 50lb bag).

Feel free to use any brand you want I'm just giving advice based on my experiences plus the many people I've helped deal with algae blooms after there cap broke. Allot of people setting up Walstad style tanks for the first time use big box store soil's and or dirt from there back yards and have *allot* of problems in the beginning. I like to at least attempt to lessen the pain when I can.

As long as your cap is solid and not disturbed you can use any type of filler you want just make sure it doesn't break.

- Brad


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

It's iffy if you don't mineralize. Your soil might go anaerobic and that's not good.

You don't have to do the step by step mineralizing soil but at least soak the soil and skim off anything floating like bark and twigs. Do that several times.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

If you are too lazy or in a rush, simply boil the soil for 10 min in a slurry of water, or you could use worm castings and boil it for 10 minutes also.

This is the "fast version" of oxidation which si what moinberalization is doing.

A 3rd option is to do a DSM and then once the plants are grown in after 1-2 months, the soil is mineralized by then anyway, then you flood and the tank.

So there's a *few options and alternatives that make good sense available*.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

How does boiling affect the soil? And how would worm castings be used?

I found a landscape supply place very near my house, so when I get a chance I'll check it out and see what they have.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Fishly said:


> How does boiling affect the soil? And how would worm castings be used?
> 
> I found a landscape supply place very near my house, so when I get a chance I'll check it out and see what they have.


The soil will be loaded with organic compounds, including things that break down into ammonia. When you boil it you convert those compounds to inorganic ones, containing nitrates. And, soils sold for terrestrial plants are often improved by adding fertilizers, including urea, which breaks down into ammonia. What is great for terrestrial plants isn't necessarily good for aquatic plants and fish.

Mineralizing by soaking drying a few times allows bacteria to convert the organics to inorganics. Boiling does it with heat.

Worm castings are loaded with organic compounds, so they need to be mineralized too.

If you use Diana Walstad's method you can work with the organic materials, but you do have to understand her method and follow the important parts closely. The rub is knowing what parts are the important parts.:icon_frow

This is my understanding of the process, but may not be 100% accurate.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Miracle Grow Organic Choice Potting Soil 32 Qt. (dry) bag was $8.00 and I used nearly ½ the bag for a one inch layer in a 55g tank. It’s full of organics as the name implies but no chemical ferts. Very little in the way of sticks or bark pieces in the bag I bought. Also not much in the way of 'float out' (very very little) through the cap after flooding and planting.

Set up string on this tank including tested results on water quality by posting date.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/low-tech-forum/86457-55-gallon-low-tech-soil-sub.html

Just remember this stuff is bagged all over the country and even the time of year collected may change the content.


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## accordztech (Dec 6, 2004)

accordztech said:


> i did alot of research on nonmineralized top soil i picked some up but i forgot the name and it had like 3 ingrediants in it.
> 
> I talked to a few people on here who done it and helped me in finding what I needed. Then im going to use bonemeal, kelp meal, and greensand as a underlayer and top it off with sand
> 
> I think it was kellogs from lowes. Ill get you some pics tomorrow.












thats the one IM going to use, hopefully 1CUft is enough for my 4 foot tank.

it was actually from a nursury and costs 4 bucks


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## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

Hoppy said:


> Mineralizing by soaking drying a few times allows bacteria to convert the organics to inorganics. Boiling does it with heat.


If boiling does the same thing in less time, why bother with the soak/dry method? Also, does this work with the low-quality soil, too?


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## accordztech (Dec 6, 2004)

how thick does the top soil have to be? would 1cu ft be enough for a 55 gallon 4x12'' tank?


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

accordztech said:


> how thick does the top soil have to be? would 1cu ft be enough for a 55 gallon 4x12'' tank?


Staying around 1" decreases the chance of it going anaerobic. Not going with MS the organics transition from dry emerged decay to a submerged state with less oxygen available for the bacteria. Lots of changes occur during the first month or so then settle out. I used a 1" layer.


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## Spork (Apr 27, 2009)

You can check with Pond stores as well in your area. I have organic pond potting soil in 2 of my tanks with a layer of crushed quartz to keep it down. Just sift it well and wash it and then dry it. Works like crazy and my plants love it.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Fishly said:


> Why is pine bark bad for aquariums?


Pine bark is harmful to the fish.

I use Scotts Top soil $2
Shultz Cactus soil $5 
River Sand from landscaper for capping $3

I like the river sand for it doesn't need a lot of rinsing. I just shift the big partilcles out. Used the Cactus soil because it has a lot of humus which reduces amount of Co2 needed for plants. Recently found that you have to put plastic over it when filling with water or the dirt will come up.


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## Nymsley (Mar 24, 2009)

Hilde said:


> Used the Cactus soil because it has a lot of humus which reduces amount of Co2 needed for plants.


Could you explain how humus reduces the need for CO2?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

It is something I read on the internet. I will try to find it.


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## Franco (Jun 13, 2010)

Has anyone tried boiling, drying, and boiling again to see if it pretty much makes demin topsoil quicker?

I've been wanting to do a soil substrate because I thought that was the best and cheapest way to grow plants well. Then everyone was freaking out about DTS and acting like I was dumb for wanting to do a different soil substrate.

I want the long term fertilizing power of a soil substrate but don't want as much hassle as DTS.

Is straight topsoil right for me?

Do you have to add a CEC material of some sort (Turface, vermiculite, laterite)?

What stuff makes a good cap? I don't care much for sand. Turface? Small gravel?

I'm only going to be doing small tanks so I don't want to go crazy with 400 lbs of soil and ferts lyin around the apt.

Thanks for your help.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Franco said:


> Has anyone tried boiling, drying, and boiling again topsoil


 I was going to do that but was told by another whom did it that it would stink.


Franco said:


> I've been wanting to do a soil substrate because I thought that was the best and cheapest way to grow plants well. Do you have to add a CEC material of some sort (Turface, vermiculite, laterite)? What stuff makes a good cap? I don't care much for sand. Turface? Small gravel?


I mixed Scotts Top soil and Shultz Cactus soil together and capped it with river sand. I added coconut, calcium sulfate and Seachem tabs to my dirt. I have found, since my water has no minerals and I don't have the optimum light, I have to dose with nitrogen, Kent multi, and Sea. Equilib. I get by just dosing 2 ml of the liquid and 1 Tbsp of Equilb and 4 ml of Excel. , since the dirt is somewhat mineralized. 

Here many use top soil and top it with gravel. Some manage without dosing nutrients.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Boiling is not the same as the wet/dry process. It is like comparing cooking to digestion. The end results are not the same. 

Walstad's method uses straight soil without any processing, because she does not use much light. She also ends up being restricted in the species she uses, but that really isn't a problem. Find a soil that doesn't have bark, sawdust, or massive amounts peat or sphagnum moss and you can start a low light tank using it straight from the bag. After about 4 to 6 months you can step up the light as the soil will have completed the process anaerobically. Depending on how much organic matter is in the soil and how many deeply rooted rosette plants you have, it may go faster or take longer.


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## Franco (Jun 13, 2010)

Is it a good idea to sandwich the soil between sand on bottom and gravel on top or something?
I don't want to do a heating cord or anything under the substrate.
I basically want to put dirt in a 1 " layer with a little clay or laterite or other high CEC mixed in and cap it with something black.
Will this work?
Any suggestions on the black? I want cheap and heavy enough that I can just barely vacuum it without upsetting the soil layer. I don't care for super small stuff like sands too much because of compaction but if I have Malaysian trumpet snails will they prevent that? Also I want to have a couple of Kuhlis so i don't want anything too sharp.

Any suggestions?

Thanks a lot!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Franco said:


> Is it a good idea to sandwich the soil between sand on bottom and gravel on top or something?


That won't work for the sand will be compressed and anaerobic gases can accumulate. I think it best to mix sand or sandy soil in the dirt so that it won't become compressed and accumulate anaerobic gases.

Whenever you mix two materials of different diameters...there will ALWAYS be some mixing and settling. Thus it is best to get two that have similar color. 

I am thinking to save money to use Active Flora over dirt in my 29 gallon tank when I move. Thus interested in what you end up doing.


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## NJAquaBarren (Sep 16, 2009)

Thought some here had been successful with MiracleGro Organic soil without all of the extra steps. Search for it and see what you find.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

But simply adding MiracleGro Organic is not the same as mineralized soil. That is more of the Walstead Natural Planted Tank. If you want the mineralized benefits, you really need to follow Sean's (SCMurphy) instructions. He spent many years on developing the method. Many of the plain soil tanks have algae issues that simply would not be an issue with the mineralized soil method. If you don't want to go through the steps, ask Ken to make it for you. 

Seriously, if you want the benefits, there are no shortcuts. You have to rinse and dry the soil several times. That is what makes it mineralized. Baking, boiling or simply adding as is will not be the same.

Hope this helps.


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## Franco (Jun 13, 2010)

I'm going to try a Walstad setup.
Does anyone know if nonrooted plants benefit from this at all? Are there nutrient that leech out of the substrate into the water column? Or at least enough + fish poo to sustain column feeding plants?
I'd like to have anubias, java fern (cuz I have dozens of plants in bowls around the house), and mess around with crystalwort (cuz I found a native liverwort that looks like small riccia).
Let me know what you think.
This might be a better topic for the El Natural forum because most of the folks on planted tank are MTS fans and not natural tank fans.
I've done the Walstad method in bowls and it works great for amazon swords.
Diana Walstad says you wont have any algae issues as long as you find the right soil and follow the directions strictly. Don't try anything fancy. I just ordered her book from borders at 40% btw. so excited!!!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

NJAquaBarren said:


> Thought some here had been successful with MiracleGro Organic soil without all of the extra steps. Search for it and see what you find.


zer0zax used it doing Walsted method. 

You might be interested in the comparison test between Tom Barr's and Walsted methods by Homer_Sympson called lost world.

Since I have to dose to keep plants growing, even though I have ferts in substrate that is dirt with sand for topping, I think if the water has no minerals dosing is necessary. Also have found 1st important thing to do is buy light and then research plants suited for light.

Here is some interesting info on humic acids. To supply it I used reptile coconut bark.


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