# Budget dual stage CO2 regulator build



## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

I've been researching for hours trying to get all this straight. I'm trying to work out a budget dual stage CO2 setup, but I'm a bit overwhelmed by all the options. Here's my current understanding:

In the case of regulators made for aquariums, like this GLA model, the term "regulator" is used to mean the regulator body (component that drops from tank pressure to working pressure), solenoid, needle valve, and bubble counter. If you buy an aquarium regulator, you're good to go - all you need is hoses and a diffuser/reactor. 

Strictly speaking though, the regulator is just the regulator body (component that drops from tank pressure to working pressure), although it often also includes gauges to show tank and/or working pressure. Industrial regulators, like this one, use this terminology.

If you buy an industrial regulator, you need to also buy the solenoid, needle valve, and bubble counter, along with some various fittings. All these components except the bubble counter can be found as a "post-body kit", or everything can be bought separately. People talk about "building" regulators all the time, but making a DIY regulator is really just a factor of screwing all these components together. You're not actually buying a regulator housing, springs, diaphragms, etc., and building the regulator itself (regulator body?).

Am I correct so far, or do I have that wrong?

The first option is to buy a pre-assembled aquarium regulator. This is most expensive, but easiest. It can be cheap as $150 for this very questionable dual-stage model, but more realistically you're looking at about $500 like for the previously-linked GLA model.

Alternatively, as @jeffkrol suggested to me in another thread, you can buy a nice, new, dual-stage regulator for $200, add in $90 for a post-body kit, $10 for a CGA-320 nut and nipple (if reg isn't already this thread), and probably $10 more for a bubble counter. For just over $300, you have a DIY regulator that should be superior to GLA's $500 unit. (?)

Next, you can do the above but with a used regulator. There are so many different models I don't even know where to start, but I'm reading you can find them for $50-$100 on fleabay. That brings you in at $150-$200 for the whole setup, but finding a good used regulator can be tricky.

I found this extremely-helpful post which gives some guidance to finding a used regulator. I've also read to beware of regs with gauges that don't read zero when disconnected, as this indicates damage.


kevmo911 said:


> It's really hard to be specific about what models will work, and what won't. Generally, you want a max outlet puressure in the 45-100 range (which is complicated by the fact that stock LP gauges will show a 50-100% higher range than the max pressure). Looking for a gauge that reads 60-200 is usually safe, assuming the gauge hasn't been replaced. The inlet nipple and nut can be replaced, and are generally 1/4" NPT, though certain older models use 1/2-27 threads, not a big deal, you can find them.
> 
> Common models:
> *Victor*
> ...


Lastly, you could have someone build you a DIY regulator. I have no idea where that comes in cost-wise, and I'm guessing that's typically done to achieve a fully-loaded, ultra-premium regulator, not a budget model. I read that some members of the forum sell DIY regs, and I specifically saw a recommendation for @Joshism.


My BoM has me way over budget on my upcoming build, so I'd like to keep it under $200. I'm leaning toward the DIY, used regulator option - I feel like going with a quality, used dual-stage is a pretty reasonable compromise between a crappy single-stage and a fancy new dual-stage. 

Is my understanding of all this right? I'd love to hear your corrections and suggestions.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

You got all of it right.

GLA has mixed reviews and the price is at the top end. One benefit of DIY is learning how it works. When something goes wrong (and it will) you can trouble shoot and fix it yourself, without having to wait days for a reply to an email / post with, too ofthen, clueless recommendations.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Yup. Your understanding is quite correct. I have no doubt that you will be able to build your own given your ability to figure out everything that you have already. Used may be very gently used sometimes on fleabay. Just takes patience, a little practice identifying the good ones and a little luck to catch the right one that comes along for a good price.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Generally all the above is correct but there is also some "added difficulty" at times and that very much depends on luck and how we are each setup for experience, tools and ability. 
One tiny detail on buying a reg and changing the nipple and nut can get to a point that blows the whole deal. We have to be set to get the old nipple out and that can be easy or very nearly impossible. If you are the person setting in the living room floor, holding the reg between your legs, getting that nipple out can be a nightmare. I have a vise to clamp the reg, a wide variety of tools up to 14 inch pipe wrenches and I have had one that I finally ground out of the hole as it was not moving! If you pick up one of those, you can be just (--------)? 
Point is to be realistic with yourself before committing. 

Just to add mud to the water, I also like to mention the option of using a flowmeter, rather than a bubble counter as it does have some added value if you are running a tank that needs more bubbles per second than you can possibly count! Once past ten per second, forget counting what looks like a solid stream but with a flowmeter, you can get an actual number to refer to when checking or adjusting things.
One way to also save a few dollars is to find the parts involved in the "post body kit" and buy them off other sites like the auction.
But there is no one firm answer to fit us all. Know yourself, know the equipment, first before deciding?


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

Thanks all for the advice.



OVT said:


> You got all of it right.
> 
> GLA has mixed reviews and the price is at the top end. One benefit of DIY is learning how it works. When something goes wrong (and it will) you can trouble shoot and fix it yourself, without having to wait days for a reply to an email / post with, too ofthen, clueless recommendations.


Yep, I'm a big believer in learning from DIY. Nice to be able to save some cash, too.



ipkiss said:


> Yup. Your understanding is quite correct. I have no doubt that you will be able to build your own given your ability to figure out everything that you have already. Used may be very gently used sometimes on fleabay. Just takes patience, a little practice identifying the good ones and a little luck to catch the right one that comes along for a good price.


Thanks. Any suggestions for which used regs to look for or avoid, or how to tell the good ones vs the bad ones? 



PlantedRich said:


> Generally all the above is correct but there is also some "added difficulty" at times and that very much depends on luck and how we are each setup for experience, tools and ability.
> One tiny detail on buying a reg and changing the nipple and nut can get to a point that blows the whole deal. We have to be set to get the old nipple out and that can be easy or very nearly impossible. If you are the person setting in the living room floor, holding the reg between your legs, getting that nipple out can be a nightmare. I have a vise to clamp the reg, a wide variety of tools up to 14 inch pipe wrenches and I have had one that I finally ground out of the hole as it was not moving! If you pick up one of those, you can be just (--------)?
> Point is to be realistic with yourself before committing.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the suggestions. I hadn't even thought about connections being that tight! I've budgeted for a whole list of tools for working on my car (finally moving into a place with a garage), so I'm fairly confident I can handle it, but it's good to know that possibility. (As an aside: have you ever tried an impact gun on one that's stuck?)

With potential issues in mind, is it still worth it to look for a used regulator body?

I've come across suggestions to use a flow meter, but I don't think my budget allows for it right now. Do you think my flowrate will be too high on a 64 to use a bubble counter?


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Thanks for the suggestions. I hadn't even thought about connections being that tight! I've budgeted for a whole list of tools for working on my car (finally moving into a place with a garage) said:


> An impact tool is not one I've tried and it might be something to break the bond that might have on some. Most of the time, it doesn't take too much but just a point to worry us about??? Good to prep/worry first rather than later. Heat is often my first thought for stuck metal but then the reg has a rubbery type diaphragm inside and I'm not sure I wanted to heat that part.
> On used, I am not too terribly concerned but I like to look for those which are nice and shiny, like come out of a lab, hospital, etc. as the ones used in industry was where I got my education on regs and some of those I used are NOT the one to buy as we used them outside and they got flooded or frozen and thawed with torches and all manner of obscene abuse! Some shopping can turn up some real bargains on auction or industrial surplus sites. An hour or so of careful looking for bargains can turn up some real buys!
> Pointer on reg shopping might be to find a specific model for sale at the right price and then go to the web to search out PSI that it can output and if adjustable. Too high PSI is not a problem but there may be some which are limited to 15 PSI, etc. and that can limit the value for us. Not a killer if using a reactor but just not as good value as one that can be adjusted higher.
> I have used bubble counters on 75 gallon and it was "okay" but about the limit of how many bubbles to count but that also very much depends on small points like how much the plants are using and how much we are losing out the top with splashing from filters, etc. How many bubbles we put in is a combo of what we use as well as what we lose? Consider the Fluval inline bubble counter as a cheaper alternate than one mounted at the reg? One can actually make a bubble counter but I never got one that I did not want to spend the $8-9 to replace with something better! :grin2:


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

PlantedRich said:


> An impact tool is not one I've tried and it might be something to break the bond that might have on some. Most of the time, it doesn't take too much but just a point to worry us about??? Good to prep/worry first rather than later. Heat is often my first thought for stuck metal but then the reg has a rubbery type diaphragm inside and I'm not sure I wanted to heat that part.
> On used, I am not too terribly concerned but I like to look for those which are nice and shiny, like come out of a lab, hospital, etc. as the ones used in industry was where I got my education on regs and some of those I used are NOT the one to buy as we used them outside and they got flooded or frozen and thawed with torches and all manner of obscene abuse! Some shopping can turn up some real bargains on auction or industrial surplus sites. An hour or so of careful looking for bargains can turn up some real buys!
> Pointer on reg shopping might be to find a specific model for sale at the right price and then go to the web to search out PSI that it can output and if adjustable. Too high PSI is not a problem but there may be some which are limited to 15 PSI, etc. and that can limit the value for us. Not a killer if using a reactor but just not as good value as one that can be adjusted higher.
> I have used bubble counters on 75 gallon and it was "okay" but about the limit of how many bubbles to count but that also very much depends on small points like how much the plants are using and how much we are losing out the top with splashing from filters, etc. How many bubbles we put in is a combo of what we use as well as what we lose? Consider the Fluval inline bubble counter as a cheaper alternate than one mounted at the reg? One can actually make a bubble counter but I never got one that I did not want to spend the $8-9 to replace with something better! :grin2:


A torch was the first thing to pop into my mind too :grin2: but I realized that wouldn't do well with the rubber diaphragm as well. I almost enjoy when a bolt won't come off my car, because that's an opportunity to break out the torch. I've yet to meet a fastener that the combination of torch and impact won't remove.

Thanks for the tips! I'll start looking for deals.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Oh my! A man with a torch! You can figure a way to kick a reg apart. I mention it because there are often folks who really have not touched much more than a pair of pliers and that can get really hard if they run into a tough one. 
Another small point on shopping might be worth a thought. There may be some regs show up with bent needle/internal parts on gauges. That can leave them really needing to sell it, no matter how cheap, so a person who really wants to do a bit of extra can often find a bargain on the reg that cuts in enough savings to make replacing the gauge reasonable as the guages are not all that expensive in the under $20 range for sure. Nothing CO2 specific but there are a couple points to consider as some have different size and left or right hand threads. Lots depends on how /where you can get parts like that.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

I just went through this process. After I bought my regulator (A rebranded Victor 270A) I was told it can only do 15 psi. This is not an issue for me since I always planned to use a reactor. But if you plan to use a diffuser definitely look into the models capabilities before purchasing. 

My rule of thumb was that I wanted to pay less then 50$ shipped. I also wanted a regulator that was at least plated nickle if not stainless steel. The reason being that they are supposed to be beefier and they are definitely very shiny! There is no real justification for this though and the brass ones work just fine according to well.. pretty much everyone. 

Victor rebranded a bunch of their regulators. My regulator for instance is a "trigas". I found that these rebranded regulators were being sold cheaper on ebay then the victor branded regulators of the same model number. 

As you do searches for model numbers like "270 regulator" you will come across a number of brands and be able to go from there. 

Probably most importantly of all you will also need to recognize what is a dual stage regulator and what is a single stage by sight alone. The dual stage regulator has a big ol knob on the back side of the regulator and the single stage regulator is flat on its back. This will be VERY important for your searches. Most regulators that are good deals are not listed as dual stage or 2 stage. They will just give whatever model number the seller can find on the regulator and thats it. This is because the seller has no clue what they have and just want it gone as fast as possible. If you limit your searches to only regulators advertised as "2 stage" or "dual stage" you will likely pay a lot more (2 to 3 times more is not uncommon I found). 

You did a good job deciphering and explaining the whole "DIY regulator build" thing. It took me almost a day to figure out that when people said they are "building a regulator" they meant screwing parts onto an existing regulator.

Good luck on your search!


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

133088937411

40psi max for"b" series..

Personally I've been shooting for "new in box"..
Cost has been around $100 but I pretend my odds are better..


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

PlantedRich said:


> Oh my! A man with a torch! You can figure a way to kick a reg apart. I mention it because there are often folks who really have not touched much more than a pair of pliers and that can get really hard if they run into a tough one.
> Another small point on shopping might be worth a thought. There may be some regs show up with bent needle/internal parts on gauges. That can leave them really needing to sell it, no matter how cheap, so a person who really wants to do a bit of extra can often find a bargain on the reg that cuts in enough savings to make replacing the gauge reasonable as the guages are not all that expensive in the under $20 range for sure. Nothing CO2 specific but there are a couple points to consider as some have different size and left or right hand threads. Lots depends on how /where you can get parts like that.


Haha, cool. I suppose I should have mentioned in my first post that I'm pretty handy - definitely good to not assume that though when helping, though.

Good to know of the option of repairing broken regs - thanks.



minorhero said:


> I just went through this process. After I bought my regulator (A rebranded Victor 270A) I was told it can only do 15 psi. This is not an issue for me since I always planned to use a reactor. But if you plan to use a diffuser definitely look into the models capabilities before purchasing.
> 
> My rule of thumb was that I wanted to pay less then 50$ shipped. I also wanted a regulator that was at least plated nickle if not stainless steel. The reason being that they are supposed to be beefier and they are definitely very shiny! There is no real justification for this though and the brass ones work just fine according to well.. pretty much everyone.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info! I've come across a bunch of regs marketed as one brand but made as another, so it's helpful to know that those are still good quality. I'm planning to use a reactor (man the microbubbles annoy me), so pressure isn't too much of a concern.

Interesting tip on the regulators not being listed as "dual stage". I'll stop limiting my searches to that.



jeffkrol said:


> 133088937411
> 
> 40psi max for"b" series..
> 
> ...


Thanks!

What's that long number? Google isn't finding a single result for it.


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## Patric (Jun 14, 2019)

Great write-up. I have been looking at regulators as well.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Long number is often a search term to use on an auction site which we are forbidden to mention? In this case it does lead to a reg offered for sale.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

shhhhhhhhhhhhh...


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

PlantedRich said:


> Long number is often a search term to use on an auction site which we are forbidden to mention? In this case it does lead to a reg offered for sale.


Nothing wrong with mentioning eBay 


Only problem is that links to the site are not allowed, as people have abused it in the past.


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## Broutilde (Nov 30, 2018)

GeorgeTheGuppy said:


> The first option is to buy a pre-assembled aquarium regulator. This is most expensive, but easiest. It can be cheap as $150 for this very questionable dual-stage model, but more realistically you're looking at about $500 like for the previously-linked GLA model.



Just passing by to say something...I did buy the "very questionable dual stage model" as I was just like you except way less handy; Co2 art is actually a good brand and my regulator has been working just fine and is very well made. I always thought that at least the solenoid would crap on me but nope, still working pretty damn well. I'm happy and not broke. So yeah if you decide to be lazy and won't bother building one, I would recommend the "very questionable dual stage".


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## Patric (Jun 14, 2019)

125 reviews and solid five stars for that CO2 Art regulator. I might get that one myself. Thank you for the tip. Never had CO2 before.

Bump: ...and I just noticed they are 30 minutes from my house. Guess where I'm going tomorrow...???


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

Broutilde said:


> Just passing by to say something...I did buy the "very questionable dual stage model" as I was just like you except way less handy; Co2 art is actually a good brand and my regulator has been working just fine and is very well made. I always thought that at least the solenoid would crap on me but nope, still working pretty damn well. I'm happy and not broke. So yeah if you decide to be lazy and won't bother building one, I would recommend the "very questionable dual stage".


Interesting. Any issues with the solenoid getting hot or "needle valve float", where the flow continues to change for a while after adjusting the valve?



Patric said:


> 125 reviews and solid five stars for that CO2 Art regulator. I might get that one myself. Thank you for the tip. Never had CO2 before.
> 
> Bump: ...and I just noticed they are 30 minutes from my house. Guess where I'm going tomorrow...???


I won't be getting mine for a month or two, so if you end up going this way, post back here with your thoughts on it!


Edit: I'm trying to find some opinions on TPT about the CO2Art unit:


aubie98 said:


> any other users of CO2Art or GLA regulators?
> 
> Finally did find that thread on CO2Art's dual stage regulator and the apparent controversy was it's a small regulator and people questioned whether a dual-stage regulator could be that small. Apparently they use a piston rather than diaphragm design.





Darkblade48 said:


> The linked regulator is not a dual stage regulator.





oldpunk78 said:


> They say that it is indeed a two-stage. They won't divulge the schematic of it though and claim it's because of trade secrets.
> 
> It obviously isn't what we think of a dual stage regulator. It could be something different that we haven't seen before but I think there's some smoke and mirrors involved.


CO2Art apparently posted drawings proving it's 2-stage in this thread, but the images are gone - guessing whatever site hosted them went under or took them down.

Apparently it uses pistons, which another comment indicated aren't good at providing a consistent output pressure. But, the two stages should avoid EOTD. I'd be curious to see some data on how well it works.



Bettatail said:


> Pistons!
> 
> missed the CO2 Art page this morning before I made the last post....
> 
> ...


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## Patric (Jun 14, 2019)

Wrote them a message last night and here is the reply:

Hello Patric,

Thanks for reaching out!

I'm really sorry, but Las Vegas location is just our registered office, we ship our equipment from a different address.

Good news, if you order it today, you should have it delivered to your door this week.

I hope this is not a problem.

Best Regards,
Karol
CO2Art US Support Team
www : www.co2art.us
Email : [email protected]
Thanks so much and we hope to see you again soon!


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Orig. was really small..
But keep in mind 2004..AFAICT..


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

This is where we get back to in many of the discussions of this reg. We know it doesn't have the parts that we see in other dual stage regs and that leaves us asking how it operates and we have to fall back on reviews from users. But it is the same there as in other items where we have to use reviews. The reviews are often not based on long term use but more the common human reaction to being asked if they made a good decision. Most of us do have a "defensive" response when asked if we know what we are doing and that does often lead to defending what we have done, even if we are not totally sure of the outcome! 
The problem with reviews on new things is that the numbers are often skewed by reports from folks who simply want what they did to be the correct thing, not necessarily a well rounded answer from folks who have used the item for very long. 
The new user reports good results but does the long term user report that it bummed out or does he simply fade from the hobby and never report? 
At one point, I believe that Oldpunk 78 was to get hands on with one but that is part of the back story as well. He has only posted twice since 2016, so we may never know if is he using the reg or lost interest? 
So we are back to the start where we will eventually find the truth (or close to it?) when the product become a "standard" due to value or fades away due to defects. 
Right now, I have no idea which way it goes.


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

I suppose the real question would be if anyone has ever experienced EOTD with this reg. If not, I don't see why it would be worth paying more for a "better" regulator.

The only other consideration is whether the piston design is a negative. The pressure inside the tank should be very nearly static until the liquid CO2 all runs out, so I wouldn't expect that the friction of the pistons would have that much effect on the working pressure - but then again I am not super familiar with the dynamics that occur within the regulator. I guess someone would have to monitor output pressure over time to see if there were any meaningful variations.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Yes, it is always a question of which item we are more concerned about and what level of comfort we want to pay to get. EOFTD is apparently a serious concern and many do want to avoid any possible event, but then part of my thinking on that end has to involve that I've always used single stage regs on my tanks and never had the event, even though I have left a leak at one point which did drain the tank. 
But I have a far different situation than many as I am here much of the time and that leaves me watching/listening closer than most are able to fit into a work schedule. I normally plan to avoid end of tank by always checking my connections and not letting the gas get very low before refills. But on the one occasion, the EOTD was not a super large problem but more of a gush of CO2 that made me jump and look what was going on. Part of the question of how bad it gets for the fish has to involve how close we are running to gassing them and I was not pushing it too hard, plus how much extra we get into the tank and what we can do about it, if it happens. I keep a barrel of reserve water at the ready, so that when I found what had happened, I was able to do a massive water change with water at the correct temperature and ready to pump in to relieve the stress. 
So I do not worry the EOTD, while it may be far more critical for other folks. 
But that leaves me also looking at the small parts as just as important as the regulation part of our setup. I tend to hedge, savings money on cheaper reg bodies, while spending more to get far better solenoids and needle valves as the reg seems such a simple "mindless" item while the other parts are far more important to me to get the smooth, steady flow I want without fuss and failure. 
So my chose boils down to doing a bit of work to put together a single stage reg which I buy new locally, pair it with the Clippard Mouse series solenoid that I buy cheap off the auction for around $10-15 and add a medium quality Fabco needle valve to get the smooth control. 
Same old story is that there is no single "best" for all of us.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

I've got the lower end (they used to have an even lower end fixed output one, but the lesser "dual stage") co2art and it works fine for me, never had an eotd so far in about 5 tank swaps and I run my tanks nearly dry as I swap them out instead of refill. But like planted rich I splurge on the needle valves and / or flow meters i can't stand stupid bubble counters and the crappy valves they mostly come with. I've also got nice handmade regs, a cheap wyin that claims to be dual stage (jurys still out that tanks never gone empty yet.....), nilocgs mini reg... they pretty much all work well for me once you stick a good valve in there.

The issues I've had with regs so far have been when they were defective from the very start. Any fish I've gassed (it's actually not many... 5 tetras maybe) were entirely my own fault.


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## Broutilde (Nov 30, 2018)

GeorgeTheGuppy said:


> Interesting. Any issues with the solenoid getting hot or "needle valve float", where the flow continues to change for a while after adjusting the valve?



Nope, solenoid is barely warm and flow is the same, didn't adjust it for months.
What I liked also: the warranty: 5 or 10 years depending on the model.
https://www.co2art.eu/pages/10-years-warranty-and-lifetime-support-only-with-co2art
https://www.co2art.eu/pages/comparison


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## Joshism (Nov 26, 2015)

If you want GLA, just go on Alibaba and get a stainless steel dual stage regulator and print out a GLA sticker and slap it on there. There's some on there that look exactly like the GLA regulators, which leads me to believe that's where they get them. Look at the knobs when you're looking for them. Searching online on the auction site will get you a better deal. I have a job that allows me to sit on the computer all day, so I scroll down to search dual stage regulators, but now I have a life. There's so many brass ones out there. Try to go for a new regulator if you can. Add a Clippard solenoid from www.diyregulator.com., or find it online. Clippards fail on me a lot if it gets wet internally. I prefer the Burkert 6011, which is meant to run water inside of it. Since check valves fail so much, I'm even thinking about adding a 2nd solenoid so water doesn't get into the setup, but they get hot and might melt the CO2 tubing. GLA uses Fabco NV-55-18 metering valves.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

QUOTE:
Clippards fail on me a lot if it gets wet internally. I prefer the Burkert 6011, which is meant to run water inside of it. Since check valves fail so much, I'm even thinking about adding a 2nd solenoid so water doesn't get into the setup, but they get hot and might melt the CO2 tubing.
I'm a Clippard Mouse series supporter, so I feel this needs a bit more info added as it does not fit what I feel we need to do. 

I fully admit that almost any precision item in our CO2 lineup will not work very well, long term, if we let it get wet as the minerals will certainly tend to gum up the works. But I feel the response of moving to a solenoid which is designed to carry water but also gets hot (4-7 watts?) enough to potentially melt plastic is not the way I want to solve the problem as heat is one of the major causes of solenoid sticking as it allows the internal parts to swell slightly and that means they stick. 

I suggest that a far better solution is to use the Clippard Mouse series which only uses .67 watt, which can't heat enough to stick, but then make certain that water DOES NOT get that far. Consider that letting water get to the solenoid is only one step from potentially ruining the next item which is the regulator body itself! Once water is in the solenoid, there is very little to keep it from going into the reg body and making the diaphragm questionable! 
To assure that water never reaches the good stuff, I add a second cheap plastic check valve as well as a small coil of tubing between the two check valves. Check valves are very prone to failing, so I keep an eye on the coil of tubing between the two check valves and when I see water creeping through the first check valve, I change it out. This is rarely a sudden issue as the water is only drawn through the check valves during the time when CO2 is not forcing it's way toward the tank and it is a slow process as it happens as the CO2 is absorbed into the water it faces. In a 1/4" airline tube, that interface is tiny and it does take a good deal of time to draw much through, giving me at least a week to spot the problem. 
This group of check valves are what I prefer but I also order the same thing from USPlastics, also. Type of seal is not important for a gas as mild as CO2. 
https://www.ark-plas.com/category.php?c=105
I'm willing to pay a few dollars more to save the good/ expensive stuff! 
When I order check valves, I order them in groups of ten or so as I find other parts that I need from the same company and that lets me keep the cost of check valves down to a level that I feel totally comfortable paying to avoid damage to the items which cost far more---like the solenoid!


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

GeorgeTheGuppy said:


> Thanks. Any suggestions for which used regs to look for or avoid, or how to tell the good ones vs the bad ones?


Like @minorhero says, you spend a lot of time with spec sheets and learning to spot telltale signs on the regulators you want if you want to go this route. Also, look for return ability for ones you're unsure of. Or decide to pay more for that ability if you want that peace of mind.

I just did a search and the item numbers of the ones that *I* considered if I was forced to get one today (along with my thought process). I like the silver ones too.
Here's my search string if it helps anyone. 

(concoa, victor, matheson, harris, smith, parker, aga, linde, airproduct, osc, alltech, airgas, vwr, praxair, hpt, high purity) regulator -window

edit as you see fit. make sure to show ALL items and not just relevant ones. Sort by lowest price if you really want to spend some time punishing yourself  


233232241638 if I didn't care about the looks too much
the 3104 is supposed to deliver up to 100psi, stuck buying an in nipple, which might have to be the case anyway with most of these. not feeling it too much but with the absence of more economical units, I'll think about this a bit depending on my budget. 

401702696627 can't find reliable outlet pressure on any stickers on it but not a bad price. I think the C in HPT270C meant something but I forgot now.

as I was browsing, I came across this: 
133075229503
Sometimes it pays to follow 'seller's other items' . Looks like a great unit but as @PlantedRich said, the 60psi gauge gives it away as a low delivery pressure unit. so I'll consider it since I run a reactor, but it's not my best choice. Have to balance the idea a bit since the price is sort of tempting for such a unit. Having problems finding more specs on the model number in the pics so.. -1 point

also saw this by chance.. 
153486464905 do NOT fall for this. listed as two stage but does not have the telltale back piece. 

this matheson is a beaut. too bad it's only single stage. 
233261521853 

this praxair might be a winner
273900314556
couldn't find much on the model number itself so I started searching for something wider.. "PRS2012 praxair", then dropped to "praxair 2000 series" based on something I saw in the previous search. netted me this: 
https://www.praxairdirect.com/Speci...lators-High-Purity-Economical-Regulators.html
shows the model number PRS20124301 breaking down as 2012 series, 4: 0-250 outlet pressure, 3: 0-4000 inlet gauge, 0: 1/4" FNPT Port, 1: Standard Assembly
(psi/kPa Gauges)
yea, searching is an art sometimes  
no returns makes me a little wary, but the price is good for a nice, clean unit. and the seller has good rating so maybe he/she will work with you if it's obviously bad? The chance you take sometimes for economy.

this airgas mayyybe, but the price is a little hard to choke on. I thought it was a rebranded matheson (out of practice), but it's really a rebranded victor gpt270 I think. 
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/1118730-best-way-remove-connector-regulator.html
331404479637 It's new.. so it's got that going for it. But from the plantedtank link, you can see it sold for less than 50 only 2 years ago! 

352684076783
poking around, I couldn't find a spec sheet for 2122301, but I did see a link on barrreport identifying it as a 212 series so I googled for concoa 212 series instead.
https://www.concoa.com/docs/catalog...egulators/ADC3010 AF 212 Series Regulator.pdf
spec sheet revealed this to be a unit with 40psi output pressure only. enough to push past a diffuser? maaaybe, but I've heard of people needing 50 to crack them, so it's new... but, not strong enough? and now we're talking at 150+ already. 

so yea, a little bit of gut, some persistence, some luck. 
if I had to buy today? maybe the praxair. but if I'm not in a rush, I'd keep looking. 

could always post back here or revive that regulator thread where you found your original information if you have questions on a particular item. I'm sure someone would be happy to provide some input.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

I've seen flowmeters talked about a few times in this thread, do you guys have a good recommendation on one for a large tank?

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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

I often mention a Dwyer flowmeter as a good option for larger tanks which require more "bubbles" than can be counted. It does give a ball which lets you read the level and have a specific number to refer back to or watch as you change or adjust the flow. However, I can't really give a specific part that I use as it tends to vary so much. I have actually used the same flowmeter and setting for a 20 long and a 75 gallon setting side by side and both using the same amount of CO2. The two tanks used near the same amount due to the way the smaller lost so much, using HOB and lots more stirring. 
So my best recommendation is to do a test run of sorts on the tank before buying a flowmeter. Sounds hard but not really. 
Once the tank is up and running with CO2, take the tubing off the current system and hold it under a calibrated container of some sort, like a test tube, etc and let the system run for a short time to measure how much CO2 is being used. Once you have a specific amount in a certain amount of time, you will need to do a bit of figuring. 
For instance, if you get "X" milli-liters of CO2 in 15 seconds, multiply by four to get how much you need to measure in a full minute. But where it takes a bit of thought is when you start shopping for the flowmeter as you may find one that gives the measurement in a totally different way, like cubic feet per second. 
A good time to go to an online calculator to convert whatever measurement you used to the one that flowmeter reads. I have to admit that all my flowmeters have been salvage and I do not have model numbers to refer folks to when buying. Best advice I would have is too start looking at the really small measurement group first as our use is terribly tiny, compared to most industrial users. Our largest use is often their smallest! 
Hopefully somebody else can give better answers.


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

ipkiss said:


> Like @minorhero says, you spend a lot of time with spec sheets and learning to spot telltale signs on the regulators you want if you want to go this route. Also, look for return ability for ones you're unsure of. Or decide to pay more for that ability if you want that peace of mind.
> 
> ...
> 
> could always post back here or revive that regulator thread where you found your original information if you have questions on a particular item. I'm sure someone would be happy to provide some input.


That's all extremely helpful; thanks!


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

Finally putting this tank together.

Anyone have any feedback on Middlesex Gases Inc. regulators? I see one advertised on fleabay as a CONCOA 312, but its sticker advertises it as Middlesex. P/N 3123321.

Edit: I think it's a regular CONCOA 312 just with Middlesex stickers?

I'm also looking at:
Harris 9296
Air Products E12
Matheson 3104
Matheson 8-590
Matheson 8-580
Matheson 8-540
Matheson 8-350
Matheson 8-320
Matheson 3122-540

One that caught my eye was a E12-q-n515c in good condition for $25. Seems too good to be true.

I think I'm going to go for the CONCOA unless any other listed models stand out.

Edit 2:
Got it narrowed down to
CONCOA 3123321 - $63 (used; looks very clean)
Matheson 3122-540 - $73 (used; untested but looks very clean)
Harris 9296SS - $60 (new in box)
Air Products E12-Q-N515C - $26 (used; looks new)
Air Products E12-4-N145B - $60 (used in decent shape)

The latter three are only 50-60psi - not sure if that's enough for a diffuser?


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

there are several type of diffusers, the atomic diffuser require about 35 psi to push through, other diffusers require less psi, regular ceramic diffusers push through pressure are at 5-15 range. 
so regulator actual max output at 40+ psi are ok for all diffusers.

the regulator models you listed are all look ok. For a personal preference, I like the 9296SS, huge and heavy, heavy duty and NIB. must be creative to arrange it is post body though, the output port is about 45 degree downward.

you might want to help this fellow hobbyist, he is looking for a good regulator too.
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/1301497-regulator-other-questions.html#post11287139


a regulator is just the first step...,


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

Thanks, just pulled the trigger on the Harris. The CONCOA is so shiny, but given your recommendation and the fact that the Harris is NIB I figured it was the safer bet.

Now to figure out the rest of the parts. For the needle valve, I'm thinking Swagelok B-SS2-A. Found one new for $40, which seems pretty good. And I'll probably go with a Clippard Mouse solenoid - I don't like the higher power consumption (i.e. heat generation) of some of the others.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

the swagelok S series metering valve is good precision, but make sure you can find the adapters before you go for that model.


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

Build is coming along! Huuuuuge thank you to @Bettatail for his/her invaluable assistance in figuring out the different parts I need and combing through the billion different items available online.

Items purchased so far (all off Ebay; prices including shipping and 5.3% tax):

Regulator: Harris 9296SS (new) - $63.17
Needle valve: Ideal V52-2-12 (new) - $42.11
Solenoid: Numatics LS03M6F00V (new) - $22.11
Solenoid manifold: Clippard 15490-5 / 154905 (new) - $19.65
Tubing: 12' 1/4" OD green polyurethane tubing (new) - $11.53
CGA320 nut and nipple (new) - $9.95

That leaves:

CO2 tank
Bubble counter/flow meter
1/4" push-connect fitting (if not included in the above)
Check valve
Diffuser
12v power supply
Barrel jack pigtails

I'm hoping to have it all ordered this weekend.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

GeorgeTheGuppy said:


> Build is coming along! Huuuuuge thank you to @*Bettatail* for his/her invaluable assistance in figuring out the different parts I need and combing through the billion different items available online.
> 
> Items purchased so far (all off Ebay; prices including shipping and 5.3% tax):
> 
> ...



solenoid valve looks to be 3 way.. May need a plug for the top


Referbed and re-certed tanks I use these people..
https://beveragelements.com/product-category/gas-cylinders-regulators/co2-cylinders/


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

jeffkrol said:


> solenoid valve looks to be 3 way.. May need a plug for the top
> 
> 
> Referbed and re-certed tanks I use these people..
> https://beveragelements.com/product-category/gas-cylinders-regulators/co2-cylinders/


Jeff, this one is better
evilbay item number: 401918155382


for that numatics solenoid, any 10-32 screw can be used as plug on the 3rd/top port, and make sure don't lose the two orings at the bottom of the valve before you mount it on the manifold.


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

Thank you both for the info - I'll pick up a screw to plug it.



I thought I'd post here (with permission) some of the info @Bettatail was kind enough to share with me regarding the various components, with a little of my own commentary added.

When looking for a metering valve, be aware that not all valves are 1/8" NPT - some will require adapters (.e.g. Swagelok B-SS2 S-series). So a deal you find might not really be that much of a deal if you factor in the cost of said adapters.

Power consumption is an important factor for solenoids - every watt of power that the solenoid consumes goes straight to heat. Many solenoids are not meant to stay on for hours at a time, like they will be in our application. Finding a low-power (~2W or less) solenoid will protect you against possible damage from overheating. Clippard Mouse solenoids are usually the go-to here, although Bettatail pointed me to the Numatics LS solenoid (specifically, the LS03M6F00V) over a Clippard Mouse. Numatics HS solenoids are also good, even though they pull about twice the power of the LS at 1.5W (still low, so not a big deal). Keep in mind that with each of these solenoids there are TONS of different model numbers, some of which won't work or won't work well. Fortunately, people like @Bettatail and @jeffkrol are very willing to share their immense knowledge on which models to get. 

With a small solenoid like a Clippard Mouse or a Numatics LS you'll need a 12v power supply, which you can get on Amazon for $5-10 if you don't have a spare lying around the house. Pretty much any old transformer will do, at ~1W these only pull around 100mA of current. You can either directly wire the PS to the solenoid, or you can buy a female 2.1mm barrel jack pigtail for $5 to connect to your solenoid so you can easily connect and disconnect power.

You'll also need a manifold to connect the solenoid to your plumbing. I believe the Clippard 15490-5 / 154905 (~$20 after shipping on Ebay) is the way to go here for both the Mouse and the LS. As mentioned above, if you have a 3-port solenoid, you'll need a 10-32 screw to plug one of the holes.

When assembling, use a drop of blue Loctite on all the post-body fittings except the CGA nut - use Teflon tape on that one (although be careful not to use too much or let the tape get inside the CO2 flow path.


Hope this helps. Please correct me if any of the above is wrong!


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## SoulstormTX (Aug 2, 2019)

Luxfer has a 5lb aluminum tank on e-bay for 42 shipped right now. I picked one up. Seems solid.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Thanks for the good info. I am doing the same build.


Where did you get this solenoid: Numatics LS03M6F00V for only 22 bucks?

I cannot find it anywhere. Is the part number correct?





GeorgeTheGuppy said:


> Build is coming along!
> 
> 
> snip
> ...


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

rajdude said:


> thanks for the good info. I am doing the same build.
> 
> 
> Where did you get this solenoid: Numatics ls03m6f00v for only 22 bucks?
> ...


264462700396


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Bettatail said:


> 264462700396


Thanks [emoji4]

Can't find it. So looking for clippard models. 

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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

rajdude said:


> Thanks [emoji4]
> 
> Can't find it. So looking for clippard models.
> 
> Sent from my H8314 using Tapatalk


search the number on evil bay, you will see it.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Bettatail said:


> search the number on evil bay, you will see it.


EvilBay! Ha ha!
Found it, thanks so much! I appreciate your help.

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## Capsaicin_MFK (Nov 15, 2009)

http://www.asconumatics.eu/images/site/upload/_en/pdf1/70076gb.pdf

Some good information for ASCO/Numatics solenoids. Bettatail has the 430 series HS03M7F10B. These definitely seem to be higher quality than what I've used in the past.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

it was S series miniature solenoids, then asco/numatics rename it 411 series solenoids.

the 430 FR is the stainless steel grade, harder than the 316, actually we see this kind of 430 FR often because it is the same stainless steel used as blades on German made high strength stainless steel kitchen knives or high strength stainless steel tactical knives.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Bettatail said:


> 264462700396



Don't you need manifolds for those?


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

jeffkrol said:


> Don't you need manifolds for those?


Yes. That's what increasing the cost, if bought separately.

But then again, the clippard mouse also needs a manifold.

You can, however find a clippard which can use hose Barb connectors.

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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

jeffkrol said:


> Don't you need manifolds for those?


there were some on evil bay provided by Radwell/PLC, but all gone today, weird.
radwell/PLC have them on official website anyway, the clippard official site order may take a little bit while to ship.


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

I'm glad this thread is helping some other people! I haven't had much time for tank stuff in the past couple months, but I'm glad Bettatail has been able to help you guys.


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## zemnar (Sep 6, 2013)

Great thread. I'm about to setup a dual tank rack and came across this regulator FZone FZ-2020 Pro. Anyone have experience with this one? I have little experience DYI'ing the regulators, I previously bought one used which worked out well (Luck, not by my design).

The FZ-2020 Pro seems to have everything I need, will run both tanks, is dual stage, and seems economical... So what am I missing since the prices I'm seeing in other posts are 2-3 times that!

Thanks for your input in advance,

Brian


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

zemnar said:


> Great thread. I'm about to setup a dual tank rack and came across this regulator FZone FZ-2020 Pro. Anyone have experience with this one? I have little experience DYI'ing the regulators, I previously bought one used which worked out well (Luck, not by my design).
> 
> The FZ-2020 Pro seems to have everything I need, will run both tanks, is dual stage, and seems economical... So what am I missing since the prices I'm seeing in other posts are 2-3 times that!
> 
> ...


it works, but it may not have the performance and security as what you expect from an industrial grade dual stage regulator, and if there is any trouble within the warranty, send it back and get another one.

The industrial grade dual stage regulators are two diaphragm valves design, not two stages of pin valves....


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## zemnar (Sep 6, 2013)

Thanks! Appreciate your quick response and input. 

Brian


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