# 350 gallon EI example and fish health



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

More


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

More


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Wow, what a tremendous treat to my eyes. Loving it!! roud: roud:
Is that one of the un catchable SAE in the first photo on bottom right. Man, I spent hours once trying to catch three of those fast hogs in a heavily planted 90!


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

:eek5: :eek5: :eek5: :eek5: :eek5: :eek5: :eek5: :eek5: :eek5:


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## Jdinh04 (Mar 15, 2004)

Look at the growth on that tank! Amazing Tom ... would love to see it in person some day. That foreground with the Green Gecko crypts is a hit, I like it.

Could you give us a full plant list? how long are the lights on for?


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## vollphann (Jun 3, 2005)

I know I'll take some major heat for this, as I'm only 2yrs into planted tanks,(yes, here's the but) but the small fish overwhelm the big tank. I know that sounds stupid, but I had a hard time getting past the rummy noses and the patriotic cardinals(both species I love). The tank is beautiful but my other thought, completely off the cuff is that the tank looks much smaller than it is due to the massive plantings in the middle and right of the pic. Please, don't misunderstand me. I really like the design, but certain things just don't seem to flow, but then I've been accused of a high bioload much, much lower on the inches/gallon scale than this tank, and I know my load is appropriate to my fishes needs. Beautiful tank and fish. Sorry if this sounded stupid, Ben


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The smaller fish draw your eye to the tank much more, there are large fish in here. If you have seen full grown adult A adonis, then you'll know. The larger fish are more cryptic, thus you get a more mysterious experience. 

The goal in many of my tanks are much less a photogenic tank, more a community that works well together. If I wanted to do a show case, I'd do a simpler design and add one or two species.

I've done both, but this is what I prefer personally and in person, few would argue, but from a photo perspective, it does not show the reality of the impression.

Adding a large fish would make the tank look much smaller, but perhaps more photogenic. There is a lot more space in the tank than what is shown due to shadows and caves under the wood and rocks. About 4sq ft are caves that you can peer into to see the larger cryptic fish.

The other thing, I do not take pictures of tanks after I just spend 2 hours uprooting, pruning and cleaning. This is maintenance tank and I cannot come and prep for the photo shot, the tank is overgrown because it's not been trimmed for a week.

This is the type of tank the client wanted and that's what he gets.
The tank is easy to care for, has a high bioload, lots of different things going on, and stable as it gets.

Here's a pic from 2 years ago










Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Jdinh04 said:


> Look at the growth on that tank! Amazing Tom ... would love to see it in person some day. That foreground with the Green Gecko crypts is a hit, I like it.
> 
> Could you give us a full plant list? how long are the lights on for?


I have to hack the weeds back every week to keep the geko getting enough light. I'm pretty vicious with pruning. I'm just happy something grows there due to those pleco's and corys. I'd tried the Lobelia but they keep mauling it. Same with Elatine, Gloss, moss, algae balls, some dwarf new Hygro foreground plant.
I might try the U grammifolia. But this is fine also.

Lights are on about 10-12 hours a day, 8x55w 8800K and 6500K iwaski MH's (4x 150W). So about 3w/gal. 

Plant list:
Lace plant. 
C calamistratum
C helferi
Anubias coffeefiolia
A barteri
A nana
C Red wendtii
C spiralis
C undulatus
C green geko
C green wendtii
C balssii
Gaint hygro
L aromatica
R indica
Ech. urugayensis
Myriophyllum matogrossense green
Narrow left Java fern
Bolbitus
Moss, cannot get rid of it
Riccia, same as moss

Note, there is a lot of current in the tank and the other side is blasted(the left side), you cannot see this, but I'm going to cork the over flow on the left and have added some Anubias branches going up and will cover the back wall with that.

There are a lot of fish in here, and hiding them is a trick. They never all come out except once in the blue moon or when feed. These balls of fish run in and out of your field of view. These fish all bite me(tasty arm hairs) when I' work on the tank and are tame. They also stay in their prospective groups well except when feeding. Everybody has their little section of turf. As it should be.

The other problem with getting photos and the balance of the layout: you cannot see 2ft of the front of the tank. The side view is available, but not the full front view. the client is considering a 450 gal (+removing that 2ft blockage). When seen in person, you get a different feel for the layout due to this blockage. Yea, it does not make sense to me either. Makes that corner and bear to get to.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

vollphann said:


> but I had a hard time getting past the rummy noses and the patriotic cardinals(both species I love).


Yep, they are like flies in here.
But that's what they liked and wanted. I sort of agree with you though. 
They are nice easy schooling fish, how many tanks do you see 500cardinals in? You can count those on one hand..............250 rummys? Same thing. Looks a lot nicer to me than 12 discus etc, who hasn't seen that:icon_roll 

Just because someone has 2 years in does not mean they are less than some clown that's got 50 years in and has been doing shoddy methods/work etc the entire time. I know plenty that have been doing things for the wrong reasons for 20 years. James won the AGA contest with 8 months in the hobby and he used EI. 



> The tank is beautiful but my other thought, completely off the cuff is that the tank looks much smaller than it is due to the massive plantings in the middle and right of the pic.


Again, the client wants a denser jungle feel. They had planned for a hair grass field and some smooth stones etc and just Rose line barbs. But that was changed. You cannot see the other 2ft on the right side due to that pesky panel being in the way of the tank view, I have no idea why they did it that way, the client is considering adding a 440 gal and removing that section hopefully. But they like things the way they are and until he gives the okay, it shall remain.

I'd like the extra height personally and chance to redo everything from the ground up.



> Please, don't misunderstand me. I really like the design, but certain things just don't seem to flow, but then I've been accused of a high bioload much, much lower on the inches/gallon scale than this tank, and I know my load is appropriate to my fishes needs. Beautiful tank and fish. Sorry if this sounded stupid, Ben


Actually you are quite right, but it's still a feast for the eyes in person.
One of the main points of my post is not for scaping, it is to highlight how easy a large tank using high light and CO2 with high sensitive fish bioloads are with basic EI after several years. I change things slowly, that way I have some response to what the client wants. I'm hired, this is not my personal tank.

So I do what they want, not what I want.
They like things after they grow in and often do not want to rip things part and redo them. I would love to rip the other side down more and leave some more space, but they want the jungle look. I had some nice mossy branches and more openess in the design for a time, but those plecos maw the moss off the wood. I'm trying the Anbuias branches on one side and will change that back to that design perhaps. I also just had some left over rocks which is the set in here. I saved the nicve groups of rocks for a 180 gal personal aggressive tank I have planned. I have the fish for it, just not the space till I move(Whimple piranha/P leopardus/Black Ghost knife/C compressiceps/A adonis, Vampire pleco). I also have a 225 gal for a community tank, fewer species, but a larger community rather than a high lighted population. I like populations that work well together and into distinct zones that "ball" well together. 

Photos seldom show this behavior.
I'm not trying to win contest, I honestly do not care that much about my designs for that, I'm doing this for myself or for a client, not to impress you or anyone else.

I know what I like and prefer. 
Many "fish only" folks see planted tanks and think all you have are few fish and mostly plants etc. My tanks show you can have both.

Designs can be changes, groups can be integrated more etc. As the tank gets larger, the mix of these becomes more overwhelming.

But you sit and watch the tank for many more hours than a simple layout with a single species..............

Which tank would you want to sit in front of?
That's a simple question and one I ask my clients.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## fredyk (Jan 2, 2004)

The hatchets are spectacular!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

fredyk said:


> The hatchets are spectacular!


I liked the larger hardier Silvers rather than the marbled.
There's a neat spotted variety I saw also, sort of similar to the silvers in size etc

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## rocafreestyler (Sep 30, 2006)

Hi

You have said above that this is a tank that you have created for a client. Does the client do all the maintanence or do you look after that. I know with my tank that I am doing bits here and there every other day or week etc. I was just wondering how the tank stays in such tip top condition.

Cheers

Roca

BTW its a beautiful looking tank :fish:


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## davej (Feb 22, 2006)

Betowess said:


> Is that one of the un catchable SAE in the first photo on bottom right. Man, I spent hours once trying to catch three of those fast hogs in a heavily planted 90!


I had the same problem before, the answer was to take a plastic pop bottle cut the top off, flip it over, and stick it back in the bottle. I then baited it with some pellets. Next morning he was in there and just lifted the whole thing out.
Worked like a charm.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

rocafreestyler said:


> Hi
> 
> You have said above that this is a tank that you have created for a client. Does the client do all the maintanence or do you look after that. I know with my tank that I am doing bits here and there every other day or week etc. I was just wondering how the tank stays in such tip top condition.
> 
> ...


The client does zero work on the tank, maybe feeds them once in awhile.
He has staff that adds food 2x a day and adds the ferts 2x a week(I add it on the 3 rd dose when I come).

So this requires little effort on the client's part.
I spend about 2 hours on average on the tank a week total.

That's it.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

Tom:

Thank you very much for taking the time to photograph this tank. It is beautiful and it sounds like everyone is happy.

Could you please post details as to the lighting if not covered elsewhere?


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## Mako (Mar 23, 2007)

I think I almost like this tank as much as the behemouth! I'm with your client, I like the tank to look somewhat like a jungle and to be stocked with many different species.

Excellent tank


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## tpl*co (Nov 4, 2006)

No, I like the behemoth better . I keep staring at it's picture and just ordered some wild angels to put in my tank . Wish I could go up to it's scale, but I'll try and recreate it's feeling in my 130 gallon .

First thought here was that all those little fish look like rush hour traffic! But on the plus side it could look like a coral reef .

Tina


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## frozenbarb (Dec 16, 2006)

wow that is awesome, i scrolled down and saw a beautiful tank without seeing the poster, all those vals make a dense forest

, well seeing that its tom, you tank looks AWesome man


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

My count adds to $3000-5000 in fish (and that is probably conservative). That alone would have me staring! Nice post, Tom. I actually prefer the look of the tank from 2 years back.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

frozenbarb said:


> wow that is awesome, i scrolled down and saw a beautiful tank without seeing the poster, all those vals make a dense forest
> 
> , well seeing that its tom, you tank looks AWesome man


Those are Crypts, not vals. I had originally wanted C balansae but the C spiralis took over. I may swap them out at some point.

Lighting is 10-12 hours(depends on the client, we have manual override for a timer sequence), 8x55w 8800K, 4x 150 6500K MH's. PFO hood, 6" from the surface.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

unirdna said:


> My count adds to $3000-5000 in fish (and that is probably conservative). That alone would have me staring! Nice post, Tom. I actually prefer the look of the tank from 2 years back.


I sort of do as well, I had it nice for awhile like a Dutch style, but they wanted more a jungle look and it does evolve as time passes.
I seldom keep things the same for long. I'm not happy with the rock work on the left 1/2 of the tank nor the layout there from a scaping perspective.

The tank's current presents issues also, there is 2000gph running through here. So I blast the water into the C spiralis beds in the back. Looks neat.

Yes, on the retail dollar, the fish cost is very high indeed, most of the tanks I have are that way, I was a fish person first and soon after a plant and fish person.

I typically supply the fish to clients at wholesale cost + 10% so they get a really good deal even if I am expensive in other areas. I also replace fish that are lost due to any thing to do with me or my maintenance.

See how many folks do that:thumbsup: 
Sort of a guarantee and putting your $ where your mouth is.
Same deal for my Reef customers.
This tank uses refugium and KNO3/trace dosing.










Mistakes would cost me a lot of $ personally. 
It's not so much about the $, it's about the stability of the system and having things run smoothly.

Clients will wait a little while for things to grow in, that's a fun process for them. They will not tolerate on going issues and massive deaths, algae blooms etc. 

EI is very pro active and good cleaning and upkeep makes things very stable for both fish and plants.

I like rare fish and always will. That keeps folks looking. Cards and Rummys are not rare, but most of the other fish are and it is rare to see them in a planted tanks and at such high densities/numbers.

Having access to wholesalers who are good helps, you need to be able to feed the fish well also, that's the hardest challenge for such larger tanks with many species.

It is a bit like a freeway, or more like watching a town from a mountain hillside. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## vollphann (Jun 3, 2005)

Hi, Tom. Sorry, if I came off too obnoxious. I really didn't mean to. I really learned alot from your point by point on my orig. post(THANKS!) Like I said, the tank is gorgeous;both fish and plants. I do wish I could see it in person. Tanks loose so much in the pictures many times. I know my tank does. I have the problem of loving rainbows and they don't translate well in my smaller 42g setup. I have learned though about what you said about changing things slowly and allowing both fish and plants to adjust. My tank seems overgrown at times too, but when I have a pair of emerald rainbows spawning almost every night at 9:30P I must be doing something ok. The only time I had a fish die off was when I introduced press. CO2 4mo ago. I still can't pinpoint the reason other than possibly the constant fluctuations in pH or possibly the addition of too many ferts. The tank finally settled in over the past 2 mo now and everything is stable. I got lucky though. I did have the typical bout of BBA(i think) but when I moved my SAE from my 20L into the 42g, he had it cleaned in about 5days. He's a hog like others have said, but I think my rainbows aggressive feeding habits tend to keep him from getting his fill and he still eats the algae. Again, sorry if I came off too strong. I do love the tank. I just have a weird eye sometimes Hope someday to have a 120g or bigger to play with. Thanks and God Bless. Ben


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

You had constructive comments, no need to apologize for those ever.
I get crotchety when folks are not constructive and just stop using their common sense. You'll note I've never been a judge in any scaping contest. 
My approach is one of debate, not critique. I ask the person what they think about things. How might they feel if "this" was changed or done? "Would that reflect your goals better? worse?"

Rather than this way: "I do not like that rock there, it looks bad and makes the tank look small, out of balance, you need to work on the photography, the layout is boring etc.........." 

I take risk in layouts and I break rules.
I ask others to consider doing so as well.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## esarkipato (Jul 19, 2005)

wow nice tank. I won't comment on the "aquascape"...only that it would be an immense pleasure to see a tank like this in action. I can just imagine the swaying of the crypts/plants and the slow schooling/shoaling motion of the tetras & hatchets. Very peaceful.

Tom, major kudos if you can shoot a 30 second video next week before maintenance  I think that would convince people of the appropriateness of the customer's choice of fish.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Yes a video shoot is a more appropriate method.

Maybe later.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I redid the tank:



















I replanted and removed all the black flourite and switched to good old cheap dolomite. I reduced the light from about 50-60 micromols at the bottom , to 30.

Easier to see the fish, nice sediment, happier client.

Tank is about 2 weeks old after the redo and complete tear down.
Tank is far from done, but should grow in a bit, I'll make some plant changes. Moss should take over the tree in the slightly off center spot. Sort of a leaf effect on a bonsai. On the left wall, there will be 1-2 EcoTech wavemakers to provide a high current experience for the fish and to clean the tank nicely. This means 3000-6000 Gallon/hr pulsed floweds down to about 800 gph.

Right now there is about 1000gph through the wet/dry filter, and separate loop for a large Ehiem 2250. And a 1500-2000gph wave continuous flow(this will be removed for the Ecotechs).
Added new white moon lights on a reverse light switch, so when the lights go off, the moon lights come on.

I have a few other changes in the next few weeks.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Church (Sep 14, 2004)

Wow, this is an awesome thread! And great tank, as usual, Tom. Pardon my ignorance, but can you explain the reverse light switch to me? (I've never heard of that before).


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Tom,

That's awesome in all senses of the word. I very much like how you've packed the tank with fish. It's good to see a successful planted aquarium instead of another plant tank with a few fish. roud:


~Phil


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## hydrophyte (Mar 1, 2009)

That must be an awesome display. It would be great to get video for a better sense of scale.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Phil Edwards said:


> Tom,
> 
> That's awesome in all senses of the word. I very much like how you've packed the tank with fish. It's good to see a successful planted aquarium instead of another plant tank with a few fish. roud:
> 
> ...


You mean the same fish that have been there for the last 4 years?:icon_idea

I'll likely remove the rummies, Roselines, etc and add all cardinals and keep the more cryptic fishes.

The Crypt green gecko should fill in good later like this old pic:










The tank has not settled down yet, and started growing and I typically only see it after all night and the first light. After cleaning it good etc, it's hazy. 
I do not have the ability to bring in nice cameras, tripods etc and there's very little light. Fish are all washed out colorwise also. About the worst time of day for pics.

I'll see about a small video camera.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Church said:


> Wow, this is an awesome thread! And great tank, as usual, Tom. Pardon my ignorance, but can you explain the reverse light switch to me? (I've never heard of that before).


The Reverse light switch is a relay, it simply turns off one part and switches on another, so there's continuous power, it just turns one on, the other off.
The same type of relay is used for many wave makers, other lighting switches, solenoid/aeration timers and you can come up with a dozens of uses in aquariums.










I'd like to see how well the Crypts fill in and do the next few months.

Not easy to take a decent photo here, white brite sand, low light makes it tougher. Gotta do a video at some point.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## SearunSimpson (Jun 5, 2007)

Tom, that tank is sick! We're not worthy, we're not worthy!

I've been thinking of a set up like this for quite some time, but could never really see the image as anything more than in my mind- until I came across this thread. 

Spot-on Tom.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Many Japanese gardens use a light color sand foreground type and then ADA modeled the idea from that, however, this tank has no ADA As in the sediment, it's just plain old sand. So it's got some of the white sand foreground design, but not too much else.

Crypts are pretty tough and can handle the plecos and large catfish that you cannot quite see lurking in the shadows.

With the fish loads, you cannot keep a bunch of delicate stem plants. This is actually looks better on any given day and is much easier to care for.
I can add less CO2/light and crank up the flows more.

Most seem more than willing to accept some really wimpy fish choices to balance their plant desires, whereas few seem to balance the fish choice with the plant choice on equal terms often times.

Many scape first, then add fish later to suit the scape.
I generally do not do this.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## DavidZ (Nov 17, 2009)

wow
unreal!!!!


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## cah925 (May 18, 2007)

I really like the mass of needle leaf fern and I'm considering doing something very similar in my next scape. I'd like to know how you arrange the hardscape to get that kind of growth. Do you have a mass of sticks to support it or just one large stump piece that it all grows on?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Several good sized branchy pieces of Redwood root systems.
One older piece is sitting at AFA in SF actually I saw it Sunday. I gave it to Steve and George.

Same thing with several tanks I've done, basically build a good size fan or limbs to add fern to, or moss etc. 

You can still see the fish swimming in the wood under the plants, and they have a nice place to live. If it was all plants, then you do not see them.

The large open 12" wide front makes a nice place for high current and mixing, good place for swimming/fish exercise. This way the fish eat much better, and like us, live longer healthier lives. They can rest any time under the wood still.

This scape was designed more around the fish than the plants.

Many fish only hobbyist like this type of design since it does not add "too many plants" for many of their non initiated taste. 
It pushed most of the schooling fish up front also, still lets you see the fish in the shadows etc.

Most of the fish are from 4 years ago, all the rummies/dojos/plecos are, Cards and few others where added later.

This is 2 years ago:











Still, after several years, fish are doing very well. 
Both fish and plants have been in here for a pretty long, reasonable amount of time to see any issues.

I still get Ostrich club folks making claims about some NO3 levels being bad for fish.
It's been clearly demonstrated beyond any doubt that the dosing plant ferts even at rich levels poses no long term effects/stress on fish.
This is hardly the first time. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## cah925 (May 18, 2007)

Thanks for the advice.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Another view is looking at the wood, plants, like live rock and corals.
The wood has massive surface area, plants grow on top of that in a nice reef wall effect.

Plants are much better since they directly remove the N in both forms, P(corals and bacteria will not do that for you) and the light use efficiency is much higher.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Frenchie (Jun 24, 2009)

Tom, could you explain how the high fish load is accommodated? Is it offset by the high plant load and high percentage water changes, or is there some other secret I'm missing?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Frenchie said:


> Tom, could you explain how the high fish load is accommodated? Is it offset by the high plant load and high percentage water changes, or is there some other secret I'm missing?


No, the high fish load is just part of the deal. Larger fish knock plants around, you cannot grow some species since they attack and maul delicate species, or fine rooted foreground plants.

I do the same water change routine I do for aquariums without fish or lower bioloads. Main thing is feeding them good/consistently, watching them and how they are doing.

A weekly 50% water change is fair good routine for fish only tank with a good bioload anyways. Discus folks often do 50% 2x a week.
No one poo poo's Discus folks for "wasting water" when they do that however:wink: Nor are folks poo pooed when adding lots of light which is mostly "wasted". 

This aquarium has well water and the entire site has recharge ground water into a basin, so it's not wasted nor a significant issue. they also do all organic sustainable methods for the landscaping, and compost virtually everything and now have a veggie and herb garden on site. The water change valves are very simple to use and the folks there can do a water change if required easily.

Unfortunately, there's no way to use the pond/lake water for the irrigation supply system without redoing the entire system, that would be ideal.

Next week I should be able to add some more up grades and get some of the plumbing work done, new bulb for the UV etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I found some small 1/2" red farowella fry yesterday in this aquarium.

So breeding some rather rare L no# plecos is occurring in this tank.

http://www.hippocampus-bildarchiv.com/images_thumbs/S81787.jpg

I only got one of them out, and placed it in a net container.

http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/species.php?species_id=747

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## SearunSimpson (Jun 5, 2007)

Thats awesome tom!
How many did you end up finding? You think there's probably more in there you just werent able to see?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

SearunSimpson said:


> Thats awesome tom!
> How many did you end up finding? You think there's probably more in there you just werent able to see?


Likely a dozen or so, just cannot catch them in a packed 350 Gal tank.

Not worth while really.

Still, people heehaw about toxicity and fish with respect to EI dosing, and yet I've bred dozens of hard to keep and not so hard to keep species over time.

Speculation and fear seem much more common than common sense and demonstrating whether there is any real issue or not. This is clear evidence that it's not the nutrients, dosing, plants, etc.

Perhaps other folks are not doing something right?
I have no clue, but.........if you cannot do it right to BEGIN with and breed the fish, then you have no way to offer a control to test

You cannot say anything, all you have is fear/speculation, myths.
I counter those by showing examples, over decades now....of nice examples where it illustrates the facts and observations, not the speculation and fear.

And I will keep doing this till folks start to let go of their myths.:icon_mrgr



Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## non_compliance (Dec 1, 2009)

Sorry for being slow, what is EI?


Tank is wonderful btw...


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## SearunSimpson (Jun 5, 2007)

EI means Estimative Index.


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## Matty (Dec 4, 2009)

Wow this tank is incredible!


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## nerdyjon (Sep 12, 2009)

Unbelievable! 

That is truly amazing!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Royal farowella fry from this tank, now about 1"

not the best pic, but that's how it goes.









Manged to nab 3 of them, likely a dozen or more in the main tank.
Counted about 40 eggs


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

They bred again in the new set up i recently redid. Congo tetras where removed today and will likely add more Amano shrimp, and then Discus, wild or Blue Diamonds.


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## The Gipper (Sep 9, 2003)

Do you anticipate any changes in the tank due to adding the discus


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The Gipper said:


> Do you anticipate any changes in the tank due to adding the discus


Not really.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

New Discus, just look at all them chickens.



















10 3.5" high grade blue diamonds, just look how great they all are.............hiding from view:icon_cool

They are eating now at least.

I see the plecos which tend to be cryptic much more than Discus.

I'll be adding more colors and fish in a couple of weeks.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Added 17 discus, and then added 12 pitpull plecos, they have kept the glass virtually spotless now after increasing the lighting 2x.

They also fixed several other client;s tanks, really impress with them, nice little hardworking pleco.

Tank has started to improve more this last 2 weeks. Something weird with the tap water, better stuff I guess.

Pearling like mad.

Added a cool white LED moon light also.
Daily autodoser works great.

Going to add a CO2 microbubble catch column 6" x24" acrylic tube to reduce any microbubbles from the return and help improve water clarity. Not an issue on small tanks, but 150 and up, starts to be an issue for me personally.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Older coffeefolia leaves have gotten some algae and such, I'll trim these off little by little and allow the new growth which is very nice and clean to fill in, this will take perhaps 6-9 months.

But as long as you keep after the good horticulture, these old ugly leaves can be phased out little by little and the end result is very nice. When you set up a new tank......then older leaves often get algae in the transition period till equilibrium is achieved. These leaves cannot be saved often times, so trim them. I only trim the bad ones, the ones that really are not contributing to the overall health and growth of the plant.


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## demonr6 (Mar 14, 2011)

Hey Tom, great tank as always. I love your work. Living in Florida it's all reefers here and it is a breath of fresh air to see a planted tank. All I ever hear when I bring up planted tanks is "Why would you want that? Reef tanks are more cool." Argh. Anyhow, what are the carpet plants you are using in that last pic? Thanks!


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## The Gipper (Sep 9, 2003)

Nice as usual, good tip on the pitbull plecs


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Same as my 180, Starougyne repens


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## bighollywood (Nov 27, 2011)

I think the tanks in this thread are wonderful.


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## green_valley (Sep 14, 2011)

AMAZZINGGGGGGGGGGGGG Tank, as usual.

Tom, you seem to have Starougyne repens (foreground) in several tanks that I saw so far. Why and what's the reason? is it because they're great for bigger tank? Hardy?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Tough and easy. Also very available from my home tank.


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

Hey Tom, how is this layout maturing?

Ack! Meant to bump this thread: 350 Gal manzy wood scape


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

FTS was blurred due to low light in the place, also, reflections made many cheap iphone pics stink.


Strange look, no algae eaters..........also, the fish ate them all.
Except for the larger plecos.

I'll be thinning the coffeefolia more and allowing the needle leaf java to come back again. Color on plants and general growth is quite nice now, even with the massive feeding and bioload in this tank. The larger Malawian fish dig also, so it's a challenge.

After a year or so, I'll redo the tank again and use a large pack of cardinals and more stems.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Oh yea, there's a lot of fry (mostly the peacocks) in the tank and a blue discus that I cannot catch.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Back to small fish:

6 week stage, I did not have much Gloss so I used a lot of Elatine, so it'll be another 5 weeks or so for the other end to fill in right.
This end is okay.





























Tank's been running really well the last 3-4 weeks now.
Got algae bad in the 2nd and 3rd week's, but then cleared up nicely thereafter.


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## Zuni (May 4, 2012)

I want to jump in there and run my toes through that carpet.


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## Knotyoureality (Aug 3, 2012)

This may be my favorite version yet. Gotta' be amazing to see a scape style that normally gets done in pretty small tanks done so large--and the scale is spot on!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

It's a weird tank to take pics of due to the lighting and the other lights in the house. The tank is missing 2ft due to wood paneling in the Front of tank shot.........but you have one side view which is nice.

Sorry the blurry shot.


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## TexasCichlid (Jul 12, 2011)

Wait a gosh darn minute. EI dosed, co2 injected, planted African cichlid tank with, my favorite, z rock lithobates?!?!?! How in the world did you do that?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

TexasCichlid said:


> Wait a gosh darn minute. EI dosed, co2 injected, planted African cichlid tank with, my favorite, z rock lithobates?!?!?! How in the world did you do that?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


D compressiceps were more problematic.....when they started breeding an fighting like mad. If I'd gotten all the females out, then'd I'd had a chance.


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## TexasCichlid (Jul 12, 2011)

Seemed like their colors stayed very nice? How soft was the water you were using? That dominant compressiceps looks like a bad man, hah.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

KH is about 5, GH about 6


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## TexasCichlid (Jul 12, 2011)

I never even considered doing a z-rock and peacock planted tank. Thanks Tom.


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## KFryman (Sep 4, 2012)

Wow those fish do look out of place, discus would have been way better IMO, but the customer is always right...

Your tanks are inspiring!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

KFryman said:


> Wow those fish do look out of place, discus would have been way better IMO, but the customer is always right...
> 
> Your tanks are inspiring!


We had 30 discus, they hide the entire time, never came out. 

Tired a bunch of things.


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## dewalltheway (Jan 19, 2005)

Tom...How is it that the glosso does not have one speck of algae on the leaves?? Is it flow, CO2 or what is it? It does not matter what I do to my tank, how much filtration I have, what I dose, etc but I always get this brown, green, black crap on my anubius nana petite leaves or any leaves for that matter. Have you ever fought this battle?



plantbrain said:


> Back to small fish:
> 
> 6 week stage, I did not have much Gloss so I used a lot of Elatine, so it'll be another 5 weeks or so for the other end to fill in right.
> This end is okay.
> ...


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

dewalltheway said:


> Tom...How is it that the glosso does not have one speck of algae on the leaves?? Is it flow, CO2 or what is it? It does not matter what I do to my tank, how much filtration I have, what I dose, etc but I always get this brown, green, black crap on my anubius nana petite leaves or any leaves for that matter. Have you ever fought this battle?


Magic dust.



Sometimes I have in the past if I did not do something correctly.
Generally not enough care, enough CO2/ferts, too much light at that point in time.

This tank had GDA algae bad for about 2 weeks, but as you can see, no issues now. That grow in phase is critical and once you get past that, then you get nice growth like this.

I'll trim this rug to to the bone like I do in my 120 Gallon example when I had gloss in there. I showed how to trim it and then took pics of the recovery, then the next post trim and recovery again. You mow just like a lawn. The new growth is always nice, clean, small and tight.

Healthy happy plant leaves are the best defense against algae.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The gloss marches on:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I just turned the light on, so the tank is sleepy, so are the fish.





























Before the trimming:









After trimming:











I will likely remove the weedy Hairgrass and replace with Isoetes or something.
I have some more larger Rock on the way, so I'll redo some of that also.


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## Obakemono (Dec 23, 2011)

How fast will the glosso come back?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Obakemono said:


> How fast will the glosso come back?


It'll look decent again in a week, then grow in nice after 3-4 weeks. 

The roots/lower stems are left so they will regrow rapidly, much faster than if I replanted the tops again(this would take another 8-10 weeks).

It's also much less mess and faster than replanting would be which is a PITA on a large foreground area.


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## KenRC51 (Oct 13, 2011)

Amazing tank!! How many cradinal you have in there? I'm guessing about 200?

How come you only trim the corner of the tank? What about the rest of the glosso I see in the picture?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

KenRC51 said:


> Amazing tank!! How many cradinal you have in there? I'm guessing about 200?
> 
> How come you only trim the corner of the tank? What about the rest of the glosso I see in the picture?


I do not trim all at once, that will lead to large differences in the plant biomass= algae.

500 cardinals actually. 

The Gloss was tallest in that spot also, the other areas are not over grown, so they do not get trimmed until they become that way.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

1 week post mowing trim.
Grew back faster than expected.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

have I mentioned I really love this tank


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## tex627 (Jan 11, 2009)

sweet thread, tom!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The Gloss marches on, needs trimmed a fair amount, I decided to reduce the light by 1/2. This should reduce the growth a lot and reduce the CO2 demand.

The NuClerar filter cartridge is clogging pretty fast still, I'm changing it every 1-2 weeks.

Tank looks as good as it ever has.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)




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## Hedgie (Jan 7, 2008)

Hows this tank coming along? So simple - yet that's it beauty


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