# Very high phosphates in tap water



## ahem (Dec 27, 2014)

I have been battling green algae problems in my 20G long heavy planted freshwater tank. I've shortened by light cycles to 6-8 hrs a day, also using a 1-2 hr break in the light at mid day. Been doing water changes and keeping detritus at an absolute minimum in the tank. I have been using Seachem Excel as directed (or slightly less, I am paranoid about adding too much of anything), more for giving my plants CO2 in my low tech. But all of this is to no avail with algae. I make some progress but it returns as fast as it left, even with a significant algae crew.

I got a bunch of mineral test kits and low and behold my phosphates are through the roof. With the API test, my aquarium has a level of 5ppm. My tap water was just below this, somewhere between 3 and 5 ppm on the color chart (nothing else in between). I pulled some internet articles about my local water company announcing last decade how they will be putting phosphates into the water to protect against copper pitting/leaching etc... so I think the phosphates in the tap are by design. Further, I am in the DC area where all the water comes from above ground sources and very susceptible to mineral spikes due to run off (my gh can range between 250 ppm all the way to 450).

I got a PhosGuard pouch and am trying that out. Also going to try to change water LESS frequently than I have. I was changing about 1 gallon a day with my substrate cleanings with the turkey baster, going to filter that water with a shrimp net and put it back in vs putting new water in. Curious if anyone has any suggestions for phosphate control that is not RO water. I want to remain as low tech as possible.


Water parameters:
76 F
Gh: 425ppm (quite hard water I know)
Kh: 40-80
pH: 7.9
Silicates: 0
Phosphates: 5ppm
Phosphates directly from tap: 3-5ppm
Iron: 0
Copper: 0
NO2: 0
NO3: 0
Ammonia: 0

Stock:
Heavy planting, several varieties, mostly stem plants
4 Twinbar platies
7 Oto's
20 Red Cherry shrimp
3 small nerites

Equipment:
Finnex Planted+ 30" (28 watts LED) lighting
Aquaclear 20 HOB (now the phosgaurd packet in it)
Dual sponge filter/bubbler on other side of tank

PS: I'm sure there is a post for this somewhere but I notice the Search feature on this site does not work (I never get a response it just hangs).


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

5ppm of PO4- is not an issue.
0 NO3 is an issue or you aren't testing correctly.
What is "Green algae"?
Excel is not CO2.


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## ahem (Dec 27, 2014)

I use the API dip sticks mostly but also the master kit liquids to measure NO3. What I mean by 0 is it is always in the lowest color grade. Maybe that is 0-something small and so you are correct that it is probably just higher than 0.

I know excel is not co2 duh, it is a co2 substitute to get carbon to the plants for those of us who don't want to mess with co2 delivery. Further I am asking how to manage phosphates not about co2.

To your point about 5 ppm not being a problem, a lot of "experts" and people post that high phosphates are linked to algae growth. I'm trying to educate myself. Do you believe that is not true? Is this an area where there is some debate on it?

For "green algae" I mean green dust, green hair (small on leaves), and a small amount of green dot. The former two are the ones that grow the fastest.


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

I actually add phosphates, plants need it. They also need micronutrients, including iron and Nitrates as well. I add all of these and my algae is minimal. Try searching for EI (estimative index) dosing. You don't necessarily need to go full boat since you aren't adding CO2 but, I'll give you an idea how people handle phosphates etc....


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## jrill (Nov 20, 2013)

On a 20 long the planted + is too much light without co2. The 20 long is a great tank but shallow. That's why you have an algae problem IMO. Intensity is your issue not duration.


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## ahem (Dec 27, 2014)

hbosman said:


> I actually add phosphates, plants need it. They also need micronutrients, including iron and Nitrates as well. I add all of these and my algae is minimal. Try searching for EI (estimative index) dosing. You don't necessarily need to go full boat since you aren't adding CO2 but, I'll give you an idea how people handle phosphates etc....


I am currently using Seachem Flourish, have Seachem Trace but not using that at the moment. Also using a little Seachem Iron because I have/like red plants. I am also planted in Eco Complete.

I know about plants and growing and know they need phosphates, phosphorus being one of the three macro's used for flowering at least in land plants. But I am sure it is not a binary thing and that there can be too much of anything. 

Thanks for the search ideas!!! Wasn't aware of "EI" stuff so that will make some interesting reading.


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## tug (Mar 22, 2009)

+1


jrill said:


> On a 20 long the planted + is too much light without co2. The 20 long is a great tank but shallow. That's why you have an algae problem IMO. Intensity is your issue not duration.


Consider the phosphate from the tap as your weekly dose. Except that your light might drive the plants to need more and adding a few things like, NO3 1-2x a week and a GH booster every week or so will only help. You do not want the plant's nutrients to bottom out. If you regulate everything down, start with less light, you can go months between water changes.

Anyway, I live in DC. I have never attributed algae to phosphate. A lot of other things maybe but not phosphate. For the tank you want you will need to hang that light at least 2 feet above your tank to match your goals. If you are interested in becoming a member of the local GWAPA, we have a PAR meter you would be able to use to adjust your light.

Non CO2 Methods - http://www.barrreport.com/forum/barr-report/non-co2-methods/2936-non-co2-methods
Lighting an Aquarium with PAR instead of Watts - http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=184368
LED Lighting Compendium - http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=160396
GWAPA - http://gwapa.org/wordpress/


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## ahem (Dec 27, 2014)

jrill said:


> On a 20 long the planted + is too much light without co2. The 20 long is a great tank but shallow. That's why you have an algae problem IMO. Intensity is your issue not duration.


Yes, I have been worried about that. Unfortunately with LEDs, the whole watts/gal thing goes out the window. I have definitely noticed more algae growth when I have accidentally left the light (getting a timer). I have been going with fewer hours (6-8) hoping that would decrease the algae. Also hoped Seachem excel would give some effect, allowing the plants to be more metabolically active. But you bring up a point about intensity. I need to research if/how that can have an effect vs. light duration. Thank you so much for bringing that up!


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Those experts you cite are not aquarists. Furthermore, phosphates alone do not lead to algae. That's like saying ingesting too much sugar causes people to become fat. It's definitely part of it, but sugar alone doesn't cause fatness. You also need to breathe and limit exertion for that to happen. In other words, various factors must be present in order for one variable to have any effect.

Excess light drives up nutrient demand, which includes carbon and fertz. If you are deficient in these two, plants will stunt but algae, which typically doesn't have high nutrient requirements, will take advantage of what's available. So either reduce light or increase nutrient supply.


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## tug (Mar 22, 2009)

ahem said:


> I got a PhosGuard pouch and am trying that out. Also going to try to change water LESS frequently than I have. I was changing about 1 gallon a day with my substrate cleanings with the turkey baster, going to filter that water with a shrimp net and put it back in vs putting new water in. Curious if anyone has any suggestions for phosphate control that is not RO water. I want to remain as low tech as possible.
> 
> Equipment:
> Finnex Planted+ 30" (28 watts LED) lighting
> Aquaclear 20 HOB (now the phosgaurd packet in it)



Adjust the light as mentioned. This isn't that difficult to do but it will require a trip to the hardware store and some ingenuity.
Remove any AC filter and the phosguard packet.
Read some of the links provided earlier.


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## ahem (Dec 27, 2014)

tug said:


> Adjust the light as mentioned. This isn't that difficult to do but it will require a trip to the hardware store and some ingenuity.
> Remove any AC filter and the phosguard packet.
> Read some of the links provided earlier.


Awesome posts! I already read the low-tech thread. There is a lot to think about there. I wish the author would have written about agitation in low-tech as a means of increasing CO2 (really equalizing it with the atmosphere).

Per your comment about hanging the light 2' above, that would indicate the light I got is massively over-powered!?!? I should have done more research. I saw a bunch of people on the Amazon reviews talking about how "only one" of these would never be enough, that they thought two were needed. So I thought in a low-tech setup maybe I would get by with one. My tank is in my living room so I don't see hanging stuff from the ceiling there. Lighting stands cost $80. To me it seems more cost effective just to get a smaller light and use the one I have now to just show off the aquarium or when I want to view it. Actually I have a Marineland 5 watt "for up to 30" tanks" light I have been using for QT and other purposes although that seems too small. 

Man this sucks, seems like this all means you can have a low tech planted tank, you just can't see and enjoy it because you better not have more than a dim 5W on it.

Back to the phosphates, I know that just having phosphates is not sufficient for algae. I was assuming in my case that it was the excess of phosphates, out of balance with all the other nutrients, that might have been giving the algae extra nutrition (although everyone convinced me to check lighting first). If phosguard does not remove phosphorous from my ferts, I may leave it in for a bit to see what happens. If it does, then it sounds like I should take it out, ditch/lower the Seachem Flourish and get individual mineral ferts so that I can engineer the dose around the phosphates already in the water (provided the plants can use that kind of phosphate they put in water).


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## Grumpy1415 (Oct 15, 2013)

I have the same light on my 12g long and found it too be too strong even with CO2. I put a 1/8th inch acrylic lid on the tank to keep shrimp from jumping out...this reduced par a little, but still had some algae issue on the stones. Next, I wrapped some fiberglass mesh screen around the light to reduce par some more. This resolved the algae for many months. Suddenly, I had a hair algae outbreak. Two things led to this...one, I had left the blue lights on with the white and red (showed family the difference on neon tetra appearance with and without the actinic lighting). I've read that algae makes better use of the blue light than plants. Second, I allowed phosphates to get up to five. Now, the high phosphates were only a problem because my nitrates were too low (5 as well). The ratio was very messed up. I turned the blue light off, did a couple 50% water changes in the next week, stopped dosing phosphates and increased my nitrates (and potassium) dosing. Within a couple weeks, the algae issues are almost completely resolved again. The N to P ratio is 10-1 currently ... If I keep it around that now with good dosing, I should be able to avoid algae issues again until my next mess up.


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## rick dale (Feb 26, 2014)

*algae*

Listen to lawrencia. What he is saying is true.


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## ahem (Dec 27, 2014)

Grumpy1415 said:


> I have the same light on my 12g long and found it too be too strong even with CO2. I put a 1/8th inch acrylic lid on the tank to keep shrimp from jumping out...this reduced par a little, but still had some algae issue on the stones. Next, I wrapped some fiberglass mesh screen around the light to reduce par some more. This resolved the algae for many months. Suddenly, a had a hair algae outbreak. Two things led to this...one, I had the left blue lights on with the white and red (showed family the difference on neon tetra appearance with and without the actinic lighting). I've read that algae makes better use of the blue light than plants. Second, I allowed phosphates to get up to five. Now, the high phosphates were only a problem because my nitrates were too low (5 as well). The ratio was very messed up. i turned the blue light off, did a couple 50% water changes in the next week, stopped dosing phosphates and increased my nitrates (and potassium) dosing. Within a couple weeks, the algae issues are almost completely resolved again. The N to P ratio is 10-1 currently ... If I keep it around that now with good dosing, I should be able to avoid algae issues until my next mess up.


Wow, that's a load of great points about the light! I had been wondering about the blue moonlights which I have been leaving on many nights. Lots of threads say that they can't grow algae but I suspect they do. I was thinking of how I could just keep my light where it is but block out some of the LEDs. The mesh might be just the thing! Thank you!!

My phosphates are high and my nitrates aren't even measurable. Being a newb, I though low nitrate was a good thing! Back to aquarium school. Lol.


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## rick dale (Feb 26, 2014)

*nitrates*

Google , proper nitrate levels in a planted tank. You will find nitrates should be around 20 ppm and phosphates should be at 1/10 th of your nitrates. Without co2 you are probably going to have algae problems.


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## ahem (Dec 27, 2014)

rick dale said:


> Google , proper nitrate levels in a planted tank. You will find nitrates should be around 20 ppm and phosphates should be at 1/10 th of your nitrates. Without co2 you are probably going to have algae problems.


Yep, researching that now. 

I know that CO2 accelerates growth. I don't buy the need for it yet and it is my mission to figure out how to have a safe low maintenance aquarium environment. I am willing to accept some algae. Got 7 otos, a couple dozen RCS, and 2 nerites in there so I want them to have something natural to eat. Also my platies seem to be much more herbivorous than I would have thought and have been munching away at algae since I put them in there. I feel like with a combination of proper lighting, nutrients, and algae eaters, I can get algae into an acceptable range. The 20 gallon long is a shallow tank, so most plants I get, I would not want to grow all that much anyway except to regen leaves, achieve better colors, etc...


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

I also see the zero NO3 as contributing to the problem. 
Use the Phos-gard on the water you are preparing, before you put it in the tank, and get the phosphorus down to about 1-2ppm, and use fertilizer containing nitrate (KNO3 for example) to get the nitrate up to 10-20 ppm. 

You list several micro nutrients (Seachem comprehensive, Seachem Trace, Iron) but I am not sure you have the macros:
Nitrogen (reported as 0)
Phosphorus (too high compared to the nitrate)
Potassium- plants need a lot of potassium.


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## tug (Mar 22, 2009)

Diana summarizes what a lot of us have been trying to explain.

I have never been a big ratio proponent. To me having enough is more important. Plants consume 7x the levels of nitrate as phosphate in a day. To me the N ratio is only a guide. Now, w/out potassium (K+) the plant isn't able to consume those nutrients. So, it is a very important nutrient. How you add them depends on your goals and what's in our tap water. You need all three in sufficient amounts to maintain a healthy planted tank. The levels we add are based on the lighting we use and the levels of an available carbon source. 

I have never worried about my blue lights - how much PAR I use, nutrient demand, oxygen levels, flow and choosing appropriate plants for my tank have proven to be more specific to meeting my goals.

About the lights ability to throw off heat if you wrap it in screening. The aluminum frame is the heat sump for these lights. Be careful not to wrap it to the point that it overheats and shortens the life of the light. The money for the light stand would be money well spent if your unable to hang two wires down from the ceiling. Raising the light will also provide a more even spread of light to the aquarium as opposed to just lessening it's intensity.


ahem said:


> I wish the author would have written about agitation in low-tech as a means of increasing CO2 (really equalizing it with the atmosphere).


About 3ppm is what you'll end up with in the water column.

I will be heading out to the GWAPA meeting this February 21st, if you would like to check us out. The meeting is on the basics of getting started with planted aquariums and there are many members that keep wonderful low tech tanks for you to talk to. PM me if you want a ride. If you decide to become a member, you have access to our club PAR meter and members get a discount on the price of the AGA convention being held in DC this year in April.


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

Yea, I was always having an issue with low nitrates, so I increased my dosing. My phosphate is in the 100 range and nitrate in around 10. Ive had no issues since. I can slowly reduce my phosphates because at this point, Im just wasting most of it. And yes, light plays a very big role here. The main reason for algae was the low nitrates and very high light. I had to get rid of my leds and downgrade to t5ho for this.


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