# Wild Altums



## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

After wanting these for a _very_ long time, picked up a small group of wild Altum Angels from Wetspot.
All came healthy and vibrant.

The fins are a little bit beat up ( typical of wild imports), but no worries... some daily water changes, Vitamins, good food- will be as good as new.


Still acclimating.
Look at this beauty:


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Following this thread with great anticipation! Congrats!!!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

varanidguy said:


> Following this thread with great anticipation! Congrats!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you, Im a bit giddy right now. I get _way_ too excited about fish.


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## laukkanenh (Aug 4, 2018)

Discusluv said:


> Thank you, Im a bit giddy right now. I get _way_ too excited about fish.


I think we all do or we wouldn't be spending outsize time and money on them!

I like in Camas WA, make it down to the Wet Spot at least once a week for a real or justified reason. They are remodeling and going to replace the floors there - I can't imagine a worse remodeling task. How do you vacate floor space of hundreds of aquariums?

Looking forward to more pictures.

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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

laukkanenh said:


> I think we all do or we wouldn't be spending outsize time and money on them!
> 
> I like in Camas WA, make it down to the Wet Spot at least once a week for a real or justified reason. They are remodeling and going to replace the floors there - I can't imagine a worse remodeling task. How do you vacate floor space of hundreds of aquariums?
> 
> ...


 Oh geez... If I were close to The Wetspot I would be in very big trouble. 

You are lucky to have such a quality aquarium store to go to.
And, welcome to the forum! (waves)


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Congrats on catching the Angel Bug, no known cure. A 240g might help to allivate the symptoms.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

OVT said:


> Congrats on catching the Angel Bug, no known cure. A 240g might help to allivate the symptoms.


Lol! Yes, it would.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

Beautiful!!!


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

I hope you keep posting pics, I look forward to seeing them grow! Would love to see them sometime (I'm just down the road from you)


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Kubla said:


> I hope you keep posting pics, I look forward to seeing them grow! Would love to see them sometime (I'm just down the road from you)


I would be happy to show them to you!


All are eating flake at top of water this morning and roaming around the tank together. They are very spunky, picking at each other, chasing each other, kind of curious at everything that is in the tank. 

This is a smart or at least very aware fish. I am entirely fascinated by their behaviors.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Here is a very rough video- sorry, the quality is not great.
I would say around the body, they are about 2.5 inches.


https://vimeo.com/307340640


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## KayakJimW (Aug 12, 2016)

Wow, they seem pretty bold! They don't appear shy like most other WCs at first


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

KayakJimW said:


> Wow, they seem pretty bold! They don't appear shy like most other WCs at first


 I agree, I have a lot of wild caught fish (cichlids and characins) and these guys are so much more robust right out of the bag. 

I had done a lot of reading and study before getting them and across the board there is the warnings that Altums are very difficult to acclimate. But, I got them from the Wetspot and was told they had held onto them awhile to get them prepared to eat flake and to ensure they were healthy. I think they did an excellent job in doing so.
I have never had Angels of any kind so I was not prepared for the robustness, activity, and curious nature that they have. It has been a wonderful surprise.
I have raised discus for about 17 years-- a much milder, slow, and passive fish. Although, they too can be aggressive among con-specifics. 

I also have, as far as cichlids are concerned, wild geophagus, Bolivian Rams, biotodoma cupidos and wavirini- all were much more difficult to get settled down into the aquarium.


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

Wow, beautiful fish! I never thought about angles being wild caught, not sure why, but i just learned something.

I acquired my hatchets and chain loaches from Wet Spot, perfect condition, no problems nor loss of fish either, plus great customer service. Thank goodness they're a couple of hundred miles north, otherwise I'd be broke!!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Ken Keating1 said:


> Wow, beautiful fish! I never thought about angles being wild caught, not sure why, but i just learned something.
> 
> I acquired my hatchets and chain loaches from Wet Spot, perfect condition, no problems nor loss of fish either, plus great customer service. Thank goodness they're a couple of hundred miles north, otherwise I'd be broke!!


I know Ken,that couple hundred miles is a "good thing" ( as Martha would say  ), especially when you have a spouse that doesn't see how fish can inspire such interest in anyone. Poor guy, he had no idea what he was getting himself into marrying a life-time fishkeeper :grin2:


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## laukkanenh (Aug 4, 2018)

My wife, who is supportive of my hobby but not passionate about aquariums like I am, even manages to find browsing the wet spot interesting.

I'm on a first name basis with many of the retail staff now if that tells you anything.

Great looking angel fish!

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## KJE (Dec 24, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> After wanting these for a _very_ long time, picked up a small group of wild Altum Angels from Wetspot.
> All came healthy and vibrant.
> 
> The fins are a little bit beat up ( typical of wild imports), but no worries... some daily water changes, Vitamins, good food- will be as good as new.
> ...


you get fry and we might need to do some trading :smile2:


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

KJE said:


> you get fry and we might need to do some trading :smile2:


LOl! You bet, my friend. How are you?


By the way, my Bristle-nose are all getting fat and sassy.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

We could do a group field trip ...


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

OVT said:


> We could do a group field trip ...


This would be fun! It looks like @Kubla, @Ken Keating1 and I are all close together. We could do the trip to Aquaworks and coffee visit afterwords sometime.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Discusluv said:


> This would be fun! It looks like @Kubla, @Ken Keating1 and I are all close together. We could do the trip to Aquaworks and coffee visit afterwords sometime.


I ment a trip to Wet Spot to pick up more Altums for you.


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

If made in advance, Southwest round trip tickets from SFM to Portland are around $200. I'm pretty sure that cost is nothing compared to the exit cost out of the Wet Spot!!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

OVT said:


> I ment a trip to Wet Spot to pick up more Altums for you.


Oh-lol1! Well, I think I Aquaworks and coffee sounds more feasible.

Bump:


Ken Keating1 said:


> If made in advance, Southwest round trip tickets from SFM to Portland are around $200. I'm pretty sure that cost is nothing compared to the exit cost out of the Wet Spot!!


Oh Boy! It could be bad. :grin2:


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

Beautiful Angels! Please continue to share as they grow. 


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

mbkemp said:


> Beautiful Angels! Please continue to share as they grow.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks Mike! I definitely will be adding pictures as they grow.


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## laukkanenh (Aug 4, 2018)

Ken Keating1 said:


> If made in advance, Southwest round trip tickets from SFM to Portland are around $200. I'm pretty sure that cost is nothing compared to the exit cost out of the Wet Spot!!


We could have lunch or dinner at Whole foods right across the street prior to. I'm in. But then again it's easy when I live 30 minutes drive away.

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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

There was an interesting discussion in a group on FB the other day about how 99% of the angels sold as altums aren't really altums at all. Never did learn from it what the characteristics are that actually separate the true P. altum from wild caught P. scalare that look like P. altum but IMO it doesn't much matter. If it looks like an altum to most people that is good enough.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

The Altums are doing great! They are eating flake, frozen brine-shrimp, and freeze-dried blackworms/with spirulina. 

There is a lot of chasing going on with one fish. This one is a bit of a bully, but, so far no stress showing from the others getting chased. Treating proactively with Paraguard for possibility of external parasites and the benefit of the acriflavine which works as antibacterial for the rough looking fins. As of yet, these areas look bacterial/fungal free. But, have also been doing daily 50% water changes and adding Vitachem in food to build immunity.

After this, will de-worm. Need to always assume internal parasites with wild cichlids.

Otherwise- all good.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Are they in a QT or is it their long term home? It looks like there are four? I wonder if they would get along better if there were more? Would you consider supplementing with other types of angels, or are you set on wild caught Altums?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> Are they in a QT or is it their long term home? It looks like there are four? I wonder if they would get along better if there were more? Would you consider supplementing with other types of angels, or are you set on wild caught Altums?


 They are in a 60 gallon right now. They will be here for about 6 months and then I will put in my 180 gallon tank. Ideally, yes, more would have been better to disperse aggression, but that is all Wetspot had left. I do not want to mix them with a scalare type because they will cross-breed and dont want that. 



Right now this guy is trying to let the others now where their territories are. Discus do it too, although the Angels appear to be more aggressive toward each other than even discus. 

What I will be looking for is if the other fish stop eating. If they do, this guy gets a time-out in another tank. Then will be re-introduced after a few days.. This often helps.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> They are in a 60 gallon right now. They will be here for about 6 months and then I will put in my 180 gallon tank. Ideally, yes, more would have been better to disperse aggression, but that is all Wetspot had left. I do not want to mix them with a scalare type because they will cross-breed and dont want that.
> 
> 
> 
> Right now this guy is trying to let the others now where their territories are. Discus do it too, although the Angels appear to be more aggressive toward each other than even discus.


I have been keeping two groups of keyhole cichlids. The first group of six which I got from the LFS were aggressive from the start even when they were not full grown. It may have been because of the cramped conditions in the store and limited food. I suspect they were relatively old for their size. 

It turns out, of this six there was one male and five females. I believe the females were fighting for dominance. A pair formed and then the real aggression began. (Now it was 2vs everyone else, instead of 1vs.)

I separated the breeding pair who produced a batch of fry that I raised. I kept eight of the jueveniles with the two parents in a 75g and there was only intermittent aggression while they were smaller. 

What I found was that as long as the children stayed out of sight for the 3-5 days that the parents attempted to breed, once they got it out of their system, the aggression disappeared and they would all shoal together again for two weeks. I eventually had to separate the parents to their own tank because beyond a certain point, their offspring wouldn't stay hidden, the parents never attempted, and it was weeks of non stop chasing.

The eight fry are now full grown and they get along amazingly well as a shoal in the 75. I think I have 4m, 4f based on relative size and body shape.

I'm sure you've witnessed variations of this in different species. I'm just sharing my story because you might find it interesting.

The point of all this is that cichlid aggression seems to be a combination of factors. If a group of siblings are brought up as a large shoal, without any food competition, in a large enough tank, they may stay friendly and not attempt to breed. With a larger number the chance of pairing is going to be less, imo.

Its probably impossible to know the psychology of wild caught fish.

My guess is that if there is enough vegitation to allow them to effectively hide without being visible, and if they are not attacked during feeding time, there won't be any damage or prolonged aggression. Keyholes can hunker down and camoflage themselves to become invisible. Angels probably can't hide as easily.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> I have been keeping two groups of keyhole cichlids. The first group of six which I got from the LFS were aggressive from the start even when they were not full grown. It may have been because of the cramped conditions in the store and limited food. I suspect they were relatively old for their size.
> 
> It turns out, of this six there was one male and five females. I believe the females were fighting for dominance. A pair formed and then the real aggression began. (Now it was 2vs everyone else, instead of 1vs.)
> 
> ...


 With cichlids, you always have to have a contingency plan for when it doesn't work out.
My wild geophagus, of which I have 8 in my 180 gallon, are much less aggressive to one another than I anticipated. They will rush at each other briefly, "kinda lock mouths" and then the subordinate fish will go in the other direction.
The Biotodomas and Bolivian Rams will chase each other briefly and harmlessly. They appear to really mark out distinctive territories and stay within these areas. 

My discus are much like the Angels. They cannot kill each other directly, but will wear a fish down until it stops eating and sickens of some disease.


Yes, I did find that interesting, how the Keyhole offspring are getting along well and not attempting to breed. Hopefully this balance persists. 



The tank I have the Angels in is lightly planted, but I will be transferring valisneria and ambula from my other tanks to get it denser.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> The tank I have the Angels in is lightly planted, but I will be transferring valisneria and ambula from my other tanks to get it denser.



I was going to suggest a wall of jungle val. That stuff will grow tall and dense, even in a low tech tank.

I think the difference in cichlid aggression stems from two things: Are the fish big enough to directly hurt/kill another? And, do they maintain territories even when not breeding?

The keyholes don't maintain permanent territories, they can hide easily, and they aren't large enough or toothy enough to directly kill each other. I think angels are similar, with the exception that it is harder for them to hide.


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

I would guess that if angels or keyhole cichlids really wanted to kill each other they could do so. I've seen keyhole cichlids kill other fish and while it has always been smaller and weaker fish they strike with enough force that if applied to a larger fish it would probably kill them or do damage that killed them. but the bullying and wearing down is probably the bigger threat. Same goes between my kribs and buffalo head cichlids where they sometimes get along and sometimes bully each other relentlessly but I have enough hiding places that ultimately they are OK. I have had mystery deaths of kribs though that I attribute to a blow from another fish. Not sure who the guilty party is in those situations. Probably their mate but maybe not.


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## Jcricket (Nov 30, 2018)

No one else said it so I will

You suck!!! ;>)


Okay I feel better. AWESOME fish. One of my lifetime goals is to keep and raise those. I have never seen them for sale in the Denver area.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Thank goodness the bickering and chasing has settled down substantially- they have got their hierarchy all worked out and where each has a territory to go to. 
Typical cichlid behavior.


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## KJE (Dec 24, 2017)

All great here - expanding a tiny bit at a time to include more than just Plants and locally bred fish .

Bump:


Jcricket said:


> No one else said it so I will
> 
> You suck!!! ;>)
> 
> ...


not many traditional LFS sell them and some that say they do have them ID wrong . Best place to get them is from Trusted breeders or a Trusted source . There are a few online stores that carry them WS being one and I know AQUATICCLARITY has them on occasion.


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## Vadim Shevchuk (Aug 28, 2009)

Beautiful fish! I picked up 5 of them from my LFS. They said the altums are raised in a pond before being "wild caught" and shipped to the US.


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## TINNGG (Mar 9, 2005)

I'd guess people get the peruvians and the altums mixed up. I could see that as v. young juveniles but at some point...

The altums aren't closely enough related to interbreed with scalare x. A few breeders have tried it and the results didn't survive.

And yes; angels can and will kill each other. A hard blow to a vulnerable area...


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Wow, those are gorgeous fish. I'm impressed they look so bold and lively- I also had the idea wild caught altums would be very shy- but it sounds like the place you got them from acclimated them well to captivity. Please take more pictures to share!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Updated video of the Altums. 

https://vimeo.com/309583332


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

They are so stunning!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Little Soprano said:


> They are so stunning!


They are adorable little guys.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

Do your Angels hate a water change as much as mine do?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

mbkemp said:


> Do your Angels hate a water change as much as mine do?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 They retreat into the plants and I dont see them again until I restart the tank again.
So, yes, I think they are not much into the water change routine. Unlike my tetras who dive in and out of the water stream-while:surprise: I am refilling and swim up and down the python tube as it drains the tank. Crazy little kamikazes.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

I had one jump and wedge himself behind the filter intake today. I hope yours settle better then mine have


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Discusluv said:


> ... Unlike my tetras who dive in and out of the water stream-while:surprise: I am refilling and swim up and down the python tube as it drains the tank. Crazy little kamikazes.


must be small tetras?! It doesn't damage them or pull them all the way through? I've had kuhlis accidentally get into my siphon hose, but they couldn't turn against the flow and looked very freaked out when I caught them in the bucket.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

JJ09 said:


> must be small tetras?! It doesn't damage them or pull them all the way through? I've had kuhlis accidentally get into my siphon hose, but they couldn't turn against the flow and looked very freaked out when I caught them in the bucket.


 Rummy nose and Green neons- no injuries or victims yet. 

It is not like they are getting caught in there- they will go in and out purposefully.
Who knows, maybe they have a screw loose. But, it gives them joy so I allow them that.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

Discusluv said:


> Rummy nose and Green neons- no injuries or victims yet.
> 
> It is not like they are getting caught in there- they will go in and out purposefully.
> Who knows, maybe they have a screw loose. But, it gives them joy so I allow them that.


Sounds like my Otos. Since I use a python without the sink's help (just use it to start the siphon), I usually just go do something else while the tank drains, and when I come back to check on the tank, there are usually 5 or 6 playing chicken in the siphon.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Here is an updated picture ( not so good of one) of the Altum juveniles.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

They are awesome now, they will be stunning when they are done!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

mbkemp said:


> They are awesome now, they will be stunning when they are done!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks Mike! They havent really grown in lenghth, but they are sure bulking up! They love blood-worms: but, I primarily feed NLS flake and freeze-dried black-worms.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

Discusluv said:


> Here is an updated picture ( not so good of one) of the Altum juveniles.




<==== jealous!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

vvDO said:


> <==== jealous!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lol! Thank you :grin2:


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

Man this confirms it, I need more tanks. I want some so badly. :laugh2:


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

These guys, the Altums, are getting testy and combative with one another- will be going into the 180 gallon soon. Eating with gusto and have really grown in size. 

Please forgive the deplorable state of plants in this tank. Its aesthetics are not top priority- as you can see. 


https://vimeo.com/324752406


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

My Leopoldi argue like that. I’m glad your beautiful Altima are growing well


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

mbkemp said:


> My Leopoldi argue like that. I’m glad your beautiful Altima are growing well
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 I was figuring it was because the tank is getting too small for them now. Maybe they will continue to bicker regardless, they are cichlids aren't they?:|What did I expect :smile2:

They are only in here temporarily to grow some before being put with the bigger fish- the geophagus, cupido's etc...


Thanks, Mike!


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## Vadim Shevchuk (Aug 28, 2009)

What did each one end up costing you? I have a group of 5 and I would like to end up with 8-10 mature adults. Of my 5, 3 are very large and stunning.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Vadim Shevchuk said:


> What did each one end up costing you? I have a group of 5 and I would like to end up with 8-10 mature adults. Of my 5, 3 are very large and stunning.


They were $50.00 each from Wetspot.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Oh man, this one is getting me even more than your discus photos. When I had my LFS I ordered a dozen wild altums from a trans-shipper and they came in much larger than expected. I had to put them in a 125 planted display (with tiny fish, think the biggest thing not a catfish was rasbora hets). I was carefully feeding them frozen so that all the little chilis and CPDs and such would be off the menu but when I went to feed those little guys flakes, the altums seemed to eat flake better than anything! This has been a decade ago but to memory, I lost 1 out of a dozen the first week or so but the rest absolutely took off. I bet I didn't have them 2-3 months when two paired off in the display tank and a customer bought the lot of them -it was one of those rare times I was sad to sell fish. I never heard back from that guy and always wondered if he spawned them or raised up fry. But something to keep in perspective is when I was a kid in the 70's all the books talked about P. scalare being almost impossible to breed in captivity and they're practically convict cichlids now. I wish you the best with these and look forward to updates.



Discusluv said:


> They retreat into the plants and I dont see them again until I restart the tank again.
> So, yes, I think they are not much into the water change routine. Unlike my tetras who dive in and out of the water stream-while:surprise: I am refilling and swim up and down the python tube as it drains the tank. Crazy little kamikazes.


Water changes are one of my favorite things about this hobby, and make me _almost_ miss having 130 tanks. So many fish get dramatic at this time! Danios act like your hand isn't even in there, while L calvus all hide for a day after a water change; and white clouds almost always spawned whenever I'd add cooler water to refill! They certainly all take it differently.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Oh man, this one is getting me even more than your discus photos. When I had my LFS I ordered a dozen wild altums from a trans-shipper and they came in much larger than expected. I had to put them in a 125 planted display (with tiny fish, think the biggest thing not a catfish was rasbora hets). I was carefully feeding them frozen so that all the little chilis and CPDs and such would be off the menu but when I went to feed those little guys flakes, the altums seemed to eat flake better than anything! This has been a decade ago but to memory, I lost 1 out of a dozen the first week or so but the rest absolutely took off. I bet I didn't have them 2-3 months when two paired off in the display tank and a customer bought the lot of them -it was one of those rare times I was sad to sell fish. I never heard back from that guy and always wondered if he spawned them or raised up fry. But something to keep in perspective is when I was a kid in the 70's all the books talked about P. scalare being almost impossible to breed in captivity and they're practically convict cichlids now. I wish you the best with these and look forward to updates.
> 
> 
> Water changes are one of my favorite things about this hobby, and make me _almost_ miss having 130 tanks. So many fish get dramatic at this time! Danios act like your hand isn't even in there, while L calvus all hide for a day after a water change; and white clouds almost always spawned whenever I'd add cooler water to refill! They certainly all take it differently.


 I never appreciated Angels until I received these Altums. These guys are intelligent- bursting with curiosity. I dont think mine are of exceptional quality- but, I wouldn't know. They were the last of a group that the Wetspot had. regardless- I love them. They will be going over to my 180 gallon here shortly. If I see a pairing/breeding behaviors- Ill move them back to the 60 gallon and see if they will spawn. 

Have you known of anyone that has had a successful spawn? I haven't heard of it- but, I imagine it happens because I have seen F1's and F2's for sale over the years. It must still be challenging or there would be more Altum's available in the F1-F2 groupings. 

Mine have taken well to flake- but there favorite is freeze-dried blackworms w/ spirulina or frozen blood-worms.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Discusluv said:


> I never appreciated Angels until I received these Altums. These guys are intelligent- bursting with curiosity. I dont think mine are of exceptional quality- but, I wouldn't know.


I think those are lovely, and at very worst -even if they weren't ideal fish -they would still have the genes of wild altums. I'm no fish beauty judge but those look fantastic to me. I too thought that mine were much more "alert" for lack of a better word than regular angels, which practically have the personality of a big tetra -I either pace or I expect food (and I don't mean that in a bad way, angelfish lovers!). But a bigger part may be that being one of the few fry that got out of the way of so many teeth and jaws and beaks and talons... and survived. I doubt if you got a 2nd generation that it would be near as wary having followed a hand for food its entire life and rarely being spooked. 



Discusluv said:


> Have you known of anyone that has had a successful spawn? I haven't heard of it- but, I imagine it happens because I have seen F1's and F2's for sale over the years. It must still be challenging or there would be more Altum's available in the F1-F2 groupings.


I have personally seen an altum owner get eggs 25 years ago! Assuming that these were P altum, and I didn't know one angel from the other at the time admittedly. But I worked for a discus & angel breeder and LFS owner in Durham NC in the early 90's, and he got altums in all the time. Back then even P. scalare was cheaper wild caught and accounted for all you saw in stores, unless it was one of those black, veiltail, or solid whites that cost 7.99. But he did get what we called altums to spawn. *If* I recall correctly he had better success keeping them in hot practically RO water like discus than any other way; for whatever that is worth and it's admittedly not much. He's died since, and this is the 1000th time I've wished I could call to ask him a question. We are talking 1992 at the latest here, so if people still aren't producing them that makes me feel like we are limited in some way in the aquarium with how we are working with these fish. I'm frustrated that I can't remember if they didn't hatch or the fry crashed. But spawn, yes. I know for a fact that happens and has for a long time barring these not being true P altum. And I'm 60% sure if I didn't sell mine I had a pair about to at least pair off and lay. Obviously the eggs being fertilized is key. Are people saying the fry won't live or the fish won't spawn in captivity at all? Because I have high hopes that they will spawn in captivity in the right conditions. 


Discusluv said:


> Mine have taken well to flake- but there favorite is freeze-dried blackworms w/ spirulina or frozen blood-worms.


Alan fed a lot of live bloodworms, mine just loved big flakes like I could get in store use containers. I guess feed them whatever they want! So stoked to follow your journey!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Its been about 2.5 months since I put up a video of the Altums. Actually, what I was really wanting to show you was a particular Altum ( the alpha in tank) who is starting to show some red spotting near the shoulder. They are all growing well, eating heartily, and I have not had to medicate for anything. Which is a relief. 

I checked my TDS in this tank out of curiosity because I hadn't checked in awhile. It was at 85! Which is the lowest it has been since I started checking periodically. It had ranged between 115-120. Maybe need to re-calibrate? Ill need to see if I have some distilled water tucked in somewhere. These Altums will be moved soon to the 180 gallon. Plan on getting some wild discus juveniles from a local guy here that has some nice ones. Just need to decide which ones. Most likely this Urubu. You need to scroll all the way down and hit "load more" to view the wilds.

https://www.aquaemart.com/shop

Anyways, here is a _rough_ video of the Altum showing the red spotting. 

https://vimeo.com/339766297


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Beautiful- that's a stunning fish already. How old are they now?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

JJ09 said:


> Beautiful- that's a stunning fish already. How old are they now?


 Thank you  



I got them in December- so I have had them 5 months. Not sure how old they were when I got them- maybe a month- 2 months old? They were juveniles.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

So about half-grown? Man, it will be something to see what they look like as mature adults.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

As you can see of these adult Altums in this video ( please excuse the obnoxious music- lol!) : They get that distinctive nucal bump on head, they have red spots on sides of shoulder area, and their fins develop longer trailing filaments. Of course, they are also much thicker through the body.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

They are indeed beautiful!

Curious to know the parameters of the water you're keeping them in. Do the require super soft, acidic water? Assuming you can't just use California tap water......


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Yes, California tapwater .

My TDS ranges between 85- 120. Depending on time of year. 
Ph 7.4
KH-3
GH 5


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> Yes, California tapwater .
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That’s close to where I’m at in Apple Valley CA. I actually gotta use a GH booster with the tap water. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

varanidguy said:


> That’s close to where I’m at in Apple Valley CA. I actually gotta use a GH booster with the tap water.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I bought some Equilibrium for the same, but I keep forgetting to use it.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> Yes, California tapwater .
> 
> My TDS ranges between 85- 120. Depending on time of year.
> Ph 7.4
> ...





varanidguy said:


> That’s close to where I’m at in Apple Valley CA. I actually gotta use a GH booster with the tap water.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks, guys. Your water is a little softer up north. If I've deciphered my water report correctly, mine is KH 3.7 and dH 6.7. Nice to know even wild Altums can adapt to this. 

Are you planning to breed yours? From what I've read, that's when it makes a difference....


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Desert Pupfish said:


> Thanks, guys. Your water is a little softer up north. If I've deciphered my water report correctly, mine is KH 3.7 and dH 6.7. Nice to know even wild Altums can adapt to this.
> 
> Are you planning to breed yours? From what I've read, that's when it makes a difference....


If I see some strong pairing then I will certainly try. Yes, would need to use R/O for breeding.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I need to move these Altums to the 180... maybe tomorrow:


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> I need to move these Altums to the 180... maybe tomorrow:



Those fish are gorgeous. I hope you breed em!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

varanidguy said:


> Those fish are gorgeous. I hope you breed em!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Thank you 


There is definitely a pair in this group that have taken to each other. They hang out together and chase the two others away. Whether they are a breeding pair is a different story. 

I hope so. (crosses fingers).


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

@Blue Ridge Reef-- all the crypts you sent me went in this tank.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Sweet! I sent a few extras to get you a nice cluster going sooner than later.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Finally moved the Altums to the 180 gallon. I waited too long to transfer them over because of my nervousness in putting them from one tank to another. Watching them carefully, however, because of the large school of African tetras. None of these tetras have nipped at the long tailers of the geophagus sveni; but, that doesn't mean they wouldn't nip at the Angels. So far so good. 

They are a bit timid of the oafish geophagus-- but, these guys are like silly puppy-dogs. Seriously, they are the most docile cichlids Ive ever had. Beautiful; but, not the smartest.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I haven't posted a picture of the altums since put in the big tank about six weeks ago. They are doing just fine in here- despite having to live with a bunch of oafish geophagus. 

I couldnt get a picture of all four of the angels, but here is a pic of a couple together. Id say they are about 8 months old now.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

They're beautiful! How big are they now? Any pairing activity?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Desert Pupfish said:


> They're beautiful! How big are they now? Any pairing activity?


Thank you! I would hate to even hazard a guess on how big they are. Not sure. I would have expected that they would have been bigger by now; but, I think I left them in the smaller tank too long and this set them back in growth a bit. No breeding behaviors- but, definitely pairing. This is a pair that hangs out continuously-- so good indication that it is a male/female.


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

I really want to get some altums at some point. Maybe my next big tank. Or the one after that. No idea when that will be though! Maybe years away before I can afford it. So much to work on with my new house.


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

Beautiful fish, all of them!


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