# 17G / Lava Rock and Spiderwood Diorama Style Scape



## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)




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## shattersea (Sep 6, 2013)

I love this wood. This would look great as a blackwater tank!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Wonderful job on the hardscape- lots of interest here in a small space. 
I think it would look good as a backwater tank as well @shattersea. With a pair or Apisto's and 15 Tucano Tetras.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> With a pair or Apisto's and 15 Tucano Tetras.


I like the color choice of Tucano. I wanted to get Rummynose Tetras but I think the tank is too small for them.

Its not going to be a blackwater, Diorama scape with mostly epiphytes. Not sure about what to do with the back, left a space and didn't build the slope, I still might do that.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I dont have my Tucano's in black-water. Here is a video of mine- I have them in a 30 gallon.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> I dont have my Tucano's in black-water. Here is a video of mine- I have them in a 30 gallon.
> 
> https://vimeo.com/300886832


I don't have a vimeo account, it says private video.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

cl3537 said:


> I don't have a vimeo account, it says private video.


Sorry about that- I reloaded from YouTube.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> I dont have my Tucano's in black-water. Here is a video of mine- I have them in a 30 gallon.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV3sxuQ_cH8&t=4s


Cool little fish.


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

Yeah cool fish. A tetra that gaurds its eggs who would have guessed. 

Never scene them in any stores before.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Quint said:


> Yeah cool fish. A tetra that gaurds its eggs who would have guessed.
> 
> Never scene them in any stores before.


 I haven't seen them in stores either. Got them from Wetspot. I think all the ones you do see on vendors list are all wild- must be difficult to spawn in aquarium.
Yes! they are one of the only tetras that guard their eggs- very rare.
They are more difficult to acclimate. The first 24 hours is kinda hard for them- but, after that they are extremely hardy.


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## cynyck (Jan 6, 2019)

Nice work getting it to look natural. I have a question - have you formed a plan yet for letting the moss grow over the rock versus trying to keep it confined to the wood? Subscribing to your thread to see how this grows out (and one vote for lots of moss, all over everything).


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)




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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

About 9 days after planting, everything is starting to grow in nice and slow.

The transition for most of the TC plants has been painless except some clumps of H. Pinnatafida have not grown new leaves and the old leaves have melted.

Some Ludwugia Palustrus has broken free from the wood, it may not be easy to 'train' it to stay on top of the wood. I put the extra stems in the substrate for now and will try to reglue several clumps on my next water change.

I only turned on CO2 3 days ago to give time for the baceteria to colonize first, next time I will try turning on CO2 right after planting it might help with the transition.

I had a lot of spderwood tree fungus a few days ago but after introducing Otos, Amanos and a nano Pleco it has just about all been eaten.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Wow! have had some great growth 

The Neons works perfect in there. Is that a Harlequin Rasbora as well?


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

Look like lambchops to me (ofcourse could be totally wrong), had wanted some of those but they never show up locally.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> Wow! have had some great growth


Yes, too quickly, some of the Buces are already getting too big and I'll have to consider splitting them in a few weeks.




> The Neons works perfect in there. Is that a Harlequin Rasbora as well?


Its a small school of Espei Rasboras(Trigonostigma Espei) or Labchop Rasbora, smaller cousin of Harlequins. I might get a few more after my trip to bring them up to 10 or so as they school tightly with numbers. But I wanted to get Mosquito Rasboras as well so I'll have to decide one or the other.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)




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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

The workhorse duo of my tank a spotted nano pleco and otocinclus.


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## Ankhari (Apr 30, 2018)

And now I've added a fish to my wishlist. That is the cutest pleco ever.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

cl3537 said:


> the workhorse duo of my tank a spotted nano pleco and otocinclus.


l471?


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> l471?


I don't actually know, it has coloring like the L-085 Gold Nugget Pleco, small spots, with a white stripe on the edges of tail and dorsal, but its white not yellow.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

The tank has been growing in nicely. Rotala Rotundifolia and Pogostemon Erectus beginning to color up as they reach the top of the tank. Spiky Moss has become darker, more dense, and is slowly creeping along the spider wood. S. Repens is maintaining large leaves and showing more vertical growth. Bucephalandra are coloring up nicely and at higher light I am seeing more bluish tones. Hygrophila Pinnatafida is finally showing faster growth.

Things I am working on:

Ludwigia Palustris is coloring up and growing quickly but the emersed growth is melting at the bottom of the stems and the increased height is causing the stems to detach from the spiderwood. I will need to get guidance on how to attach the stems more robustly at the top of the spider wood. I will soon need to top the ludwigia into shorter pieces and reattach it to the spiderwood.

I need to get more types of moss possibly to put on the spderwood thinking about weeping or Christmas but trying to keep things really low maintenance so I don't want moss that gets messy when you trim it any suggestions?


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Beautiful little tank, nicely done!


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)




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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)




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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Reaching my goals for plant health has been challenging lately. I don't think I can get 100% healthy plants with my tap water anymore and am considering remineralized RO. There seems to be too many variables with my tap water and the plants just aren't as healthy as I would like.

The Pogostemon Erectus is very fussy and even slight changes to Micros seem to trigger branching.
The Rotala Rotundifolia also branch by themself in areas without it being trimmed.
Staurogyne Repens was growing too big and overpowering the scape so I removed all the larger older leaves.
Hygrophila Pinnatafida is growing large leaves reaching the surface so I had remove the largest leaves.

Ludwigia Repens is a brownish red or pinkish instead of the nice wine red I had earlier and I am not sure I can improve it without creating conditions where algae is a risk. (Higher Ferts + Higher Light)

The light was too high(up to 130par) and/or the dosing too lean with Tropica Specialized so K an P deficiencies started to appear particularly in Ludwigia Palustris.

I reduced light and switched to PPS-PRO dosing (with half Urea/ Half KNO3 for N source) which has removed the deficiencies in new leaves but I see a little bit of GDA on rocks now and a few old leaves are getting fuzz algae which I promptly remove with diligent pruning. I had to reduce to half PPS- PRO and reduce photoperiod, to prevent further algae, it seems under control now and I am no longer getting GSA on plants or glass.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Simply gorgeous. Add some ferts and when those plants grow, it will be even more breathtaking.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)




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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

I got tired of having two tanks one just for my Betta and he was a bit neglected so I decided to put him in my main tank temporarily(and watch closely) until I give away my old tank to friends.

I thought there was a risk he would harass or scare the 10 RCS I have in the tank or even worse try to eat them.

Not only are they not scared but since I added him they seem more bold, hide less, and are more visible than ever before. I even saw a berried female yesterday which is the first time I've seen berried RCS in this tank.

The Betta stays mostly at the top, flashing me and begging for food, he doesn't bother anyone and has a very mild temperment, the Neons and Rasboras are a lot more agressive for food than this Crowntail, I am pleasantly surprised .


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)




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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

That looks great! It looks like woods and undergrowth.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)




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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

cl3537 said:


>


 No BBA in that tank 
Beautiful as always.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

That is looking fantastic!


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> No BBA in that tank
> Beautiful as always.


Thank-you, no I have never gotten BBA in the new scape and since I fixed the deficiencies really no algae to speak of.
I spent $500 on a RO system and just finished installing it, it was a PITA, had to get a pressure reducer as my house water has 100 PSI pressure to hit all three floors and that would rip apart the RO system in my kitchen if not adjusted down to 70 PSI. In the month it took me to get it all together and installled the tank has improved to the point where I wonder if I even need it. 

I'll go ahead and try it out hopefully I can get healthier plants, redder Ludwigia, and it will allow me to increase light.
My next project will be figuring out how to shape the moss better, I may need to get an external canister and syphon while cutting.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

cl3537 said:


> Thank-you, no I have never gotten BBA in the new scape and since I fixed the deficiencies really no algae to speak of.
> I spent $500 on a RO system and just finished installing it, it was a PITA, had to get a pressure reducer as my house water has 100 PSI pressure to hit all three floors and that would rip apart the RO system in my kitchen if not adjusted down to 70 PSI. In the month it took me to get it all together and installled the tank has improved to the point where I wonder if I even need it.
> 
> I'll go ahead and try it out hopefully I can get healthier plants, redder Ludwigia, and it will allow me to increase light.
> My next project will be figuring out how to shape the moss better, I may need to get an external canister and syphon while cutting.


 Excellent!
I got an RO unit myself- not nearly as nice as yours. Mine I got to keep soft-water shrimp and for breeding my discus and Altum Angels.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Well I tried out a new shrimp food today. It is fun putting a shrimp pellet in the tank and watching the whole tank come alive, the amanos end up with the pellet but the RCS, neons, and even the betta get into the action. The shrimp went crazy for it, and I saw baby RCS and juvenile RCS shrimp that I had never seen before.

I now know why my shrimp population while growing is not exploding. My usually upper water column inhabiting, food begging, docile Betta sprung into action and was hunting shrimp agressively pushing others out of his way.

I had wondered before why he looked so much more healthy, agressive, and lively since the introduction of RCS and now I know why. He loves hunting the RCS babies. While I haven't seen him catch or bite any shrimp I bet you he has caught some which has made him much more healthy and even if he can't catch them the excitement and excercise is great for his health.


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## Molacon (Jul 28, 2019)

Fantastic looking tank, and it's interesting to read about the interaction between all your different livestock. Following...


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

After heavy trimming of everything.










Pleco versus Amano for an Ebita shrimp pellet! Round 1 Fight.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Haha! It does look like they are squaring off and the cherry shrimp are bringing up the rear.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> Haha! It does look like they are squaring off and the cherry shrimp are bringing up the rear.


I didn't have a chance to videotape it but, the Pleco tried to bite the pellet and grab it away from the Amano Shrimp, but the Amano is stronger and more agressive, so he/she just pulled back and kicked with his legs. Pleco got scared and hid under the wood.

The RCS approached and had front row seats for the fight, they wanted the pellet but are not nearly agressive enough to challenge the Amano.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)




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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

cl3537 said:


>


 Oh wow! this tank is looking amazing. 
Thanks for the update!


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Looking good! Pillows of moss


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

andrewss said:


> Looking good! Pillows of moss


Yes the most annoying high maintenance can't trim because it gets everywhere spiky moss.
This tank is neglected and too high maintenance for me right now.

Until I invest in a small filter with filter wool that I can use as a vacuum cleaner while trimming the moss my only way to trim it back is pulling it off with my hands. If I trim it with scissors little bits get everywhere and I am picking it out for days afterwards.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

cl3537 said:


> Yes the most annoying high maintenance can't trim because it gets everywhere spiky moss.


Tank looks good!

As far as the moss, the best is to remove the rock/wood and trim it out of the tank. You probably can't remove the hardscape (or not all of it) in your setup. 

The next best is shut the filter off, trim it and have 1/2" or so filter hose in the other hand and start siphoning it out as you trim. This will minimize free floating moss from getting everywhere.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Asteroid said:


> Tank looks good!
> 
> As far as the moss, the best is to remove the rock/wood and trim it out of the tank. You probably can't remove the hardscape (or not all of it) in your setup.
> 
> The next best is shut the filter off, trim it and have 1/2" or so filter hose in the other hand and start siphoning it out as you trim. This will minimize free floating moss from getting everywhere.


The hardscape is heavy, and glued together in one piece it can't be removed.

What you are suggesting is the same thing as as what I described except I have to pump the filtered water back in or I won't have enough time to complete the maintenance. You have to use pretty decent suction for a long time to maintain all areas of this complex scape.

This is the technique the pros use for this, but I haven't gotten around to buying another filter and getting filter floss yet but if one day soon I should do that. I should have considered that before I decided to put any moss in the tank.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

The way i'm describing is the same thing as the video just without a filter. I just do it during a water change an area at a time. If water gets too low I just add some more during the process.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)




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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Good to see an update.

Tank is looking great. Nice job.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> Good to see an update.
> 
> Tank is looking great. Nice job.


Thank-you, looking to put additional different plants into it soon, the gravel substrate may be somewhat limiting.
Funny thing I neglected the tank for months due to Covid-19 and barely did any trimming or WCs, moss filled the tank and I had no visible Algae, now with it all cleaned up and meticulous husbandry and regular water changes I get a little bit of GDA on the glass every few days. 

If that isn't an anecdotel evidence for Allelopathy I don't know what is.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

cl3537 said:


>


Oh wow! Sure has filled in nicely. Are you enjoying your shrimp? Many babies?


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

cl3537 said:


> Thank-you, looking to put additional different plants into it soon, the gravel substrate may be somewhat limiting.
> Funny thing I neglected the tank for months due to Covid-19 and barely did any trimming or WCs, moss filled the tank and I had no visible Algae, now with it all cleaned up and meticulous husbandry and regular water changes I get a little bit of GDA on the glass every few days.
> 
> If that isn't an anecdotel evidence for Allelopathy I don't know what is.


Do you think it's allelopathy or just the increased plant mass made up for the lack of water changes by providing additional uptake of decomposing organics. I believe in water changes, because not every tank can rely on heavy plant mass and even then the WC is still going to be preventive. I still think plant mass is the best answer to keeping a tank algae free. Water changes aren't constant and the filter doesn't really remove organics from the system until you clean it.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Asteroid said:


> Do you think it's allelopathy or just the increased plant mass made up for the lack of water changes by providing additional uptake of decomposing organics. I believe in water changes, because not every tank can rely on heavy plant mass and even then the WC is still going to be preventive. I still think plant mass is the best answer to keeping a tank algae free. Water changes aren't constant and the filter doesn't really remove organics from the system until you clean it.


Increased plant mass is definitely the reason. The mechanism of how increased plant mass surpresses algae is the question and I don't beleive we have any conclusive answers in our hobby. Increased plant mass could mean faster usage of trace Ammonia and Organics or it could be allelopathic supression, I certainly have no evidence to support a guess either way.

Bump:


Discusluv said:


> Oh wow! Sure has filled in nicely. Are you enjoying your shrimp? Many babies?


Yes since I cleaned up the tank the RCS seems to be much more visible graising on plants and moss a lot more. Started with 10 I have at least 50 - 100 now.

So whenever I put a shrimp pellet in the front I get about 30 - 40 RCS congregating around, I have to drop in two, the RCS get there first but the Amano gets there eventually and takes it away from them with two they both get one.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

cl3537 said:


> Increased plant mass is definitely the reason. The mechanism of how increased plant mass surpresses algae is the question and I don't beleive we have any conclusive answers in our hobby. Increased plant mass could mean faster usage of trace Ammonia and Organics or it could be allelopathic supression, I certainly have no evidence to support a guess either way.


I know we are talking "anecdotely" but if you have a tank with very little plant mass, but you still need high light for me the only way to keep that tank clean of algae is to remove organics. Without plants you can do that with water changes, removing dead plant matter and using organic removal media. So clearly the removal of organics works. So for me, there's reason to believe that the major reason for decreased algae in a tank full of plants is uptake. 

Also isn't allelopathy plant vs plant as well. I personally have not found too many plants that don't grow well right next to each other. Look at dutch tanks, wall to wall plants. And if it is Allelopathy with some plants, it's not a good universal fix for most tanks, whether it be species related or mass.

Bump:


cl3537 said:


> So whenever I put a shrimp pellet in the front I get about 30 - 40 RCS congregating around, I have to drop in two, the RCS get there first but the Amano gets there eventually and takes it away from them with two they both get one.


That's funny because I stopped breaking up my algae wafers because the amanos would run away with them. Now I put a whole one in and the amano can't carry it away, instead he sits on top of it, while the RCS wait till he's done.


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## gjcarew (Dec 26, 2018)

Asteroid said:


> Also isn't allelopathy plant vs plant as well. I personally have not found too many plants that don't grow well right next to each other. Look at dutch tanks, wall to wall plants. And if it is Allelopathy with some plants, it's not a good universal fix for most tanks, whether it be species related or mass.
> .


You're right in that allelopathy can be plant vs. plant, but allelopathic chemicals aren't necessarily going out and poisoning all living tissue in the surrounding area. Allelopathic chemicals are mostly growth and reproductive inhibitors. So if you had a Dutch tank and tried to germinate seeds in it, you might run in to problems. With already established plants the effect of allelopathy is much smaller. 

I imagine the effect would be much lower on established algae as well. Let's say you took plants covered with algae and put them in a very densely planted tank, I don't think the algae would just go away. But new algae spores might have trouble growing in to fully-formed algae.


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