# Which CO2 regulator to choose?



## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Ugh! I don't see how you can get a good (precision and long-lasting) regulator/solenoid/needle valve setup for much under $200 - maybe used. I have not read good things about the Aquatek and never heard of a BUBBLEBAGDUDE. I fear that, if you buy those, you'll be chasing CO2 problems around forever. 

My suggestion is to go into the "For sale" section of the members forum and probe around for a good used one. Some members will build good ones for you at low prices, but not as low as Amazon because quality is lacking at such low prices.

Best are stainless (but not critical), dual stage (GLA has good single stage) and be sure to get a good quality needle valve, such as a Fabco or Ideal, but members will build one for you with high quality components. Search on the forum for regulators and you will learn a lot.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Lots of discussion about this. I bought the Aquatek since it was going on a big tank and I wasn't going to push the limit. The bubble count was difficult to set and wandered more than I liked. I spent about $500 on my custom built regulator and it was worth it. I would do 2 23w CFL's over my tank and spend the money on a decent regulator long before I would spend hundreds on the latest LED light fixture. A portly functioned regulator could quickly and easily kill every fish in your tank in a couple hours. You aren't going to get a quality regulator for $100... you might get lucky and get a gem... but probably not.


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## Aquarium_Noob (Dec 9, 2017)

Something different:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016NGH4M6/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I've been using this regulator with a 24 oz paintball tank and adapter, amazon total of around $75.
The regulator description says it isn't for aquarium use, but it works well from the aquarium reviews (~280 total reviews) on amazon as well as my experience with it during the past month. The solenoid does become a bit hot when on, but not so bad you can't keep your fingers on it. From reading about other solenoids this seems normal.
The flow valve does require some patience and fine tuning to reach the desired bubbles/second. But once there it holds consistently.
It comes with ~10 feet of CO2 tubing that fits on check valves, bubble counters, and glass diffusers. However, it did not fit on a glass Kisstaker bubble counter, fyi.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

At the same time, I'd never spend $500 on a regulator when you can get the same function for less than half that. The regulator I had was great and I think I only paid maybe $200 for it. It was dual stage and while it didn't have an extreme precision needle valve, it was easy to set and never wondered.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I've never spent more than $100 on a regulator and I'm not just saying that, I mean it. There's double jeopardy with cheaper regulators. One it's usually the first regulator for most people so they aren't that skilled in using it. Two, many people buy the cheap regulator used after the 1st person could't work it and they actually ended up breaking it. 

They do sometimes take a little tinkering with between the working pressure and needle valve to get it to work the way you want, but I've had under $100 regulators for 8-10 years now and never had a problem with them and let my co2 run completely out before replacing.


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## britter2 (May 4, 2017)

Thanks for everyone's inputs! I think I've decided to just go for it with a GLA Gro-1 regulator. They're having a holiday sale at the moment and if I buy anything used I miss out on their 6 year warranty (which is incredible, imo. Never heard of one that long before)


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Before you do that, message @Joshism here on tpt. He makes great regulators, and should be competitive with the price of that GLA. I got mine from him, and the thing is absolutely beautiful.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Industrial 2 stage is under $200 new for a Smith..
https://weldingsupply.com/cgi-bin/einstein.pl?PNUM::1:UNDEF:X:35-125-540

Add a post body kit (Fabco/Clippard)
and swap out the CGA stem..
CO2 Regulator Parts | CO2 For Planted Tanks And Home Brewing. CO2 Regulator Post Body Kit #1 (12v)
CO2 Regulator Parts | CO2 For Planted Tanks And Home Brewing. brass cga-320 nut and nipple for co2 regulator


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

jeffkrol said:


> Industrial 2 stage is under $200 new for a Smith..
> https://weldingsupply.com/cgi-bin/einstein.pl?PNUM::1:UNDEF:X:35-125-540
> 
> Add a post body kit (Fabco/Clippard)
> ...


But that's pushing $300...might as well get the GLA and at least have a warranty.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Nubster said:


> But that's pushing $300...might as well get the GLA and at least have a warranty.


It may be worth it. smith is high quality and it may be better quality than GLA, especially since it's a two-stage setup. If it's a good quality/manufacturer it will last nearly forever. Look carefully at any warranty to see what you really get.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

From my understanding GLA has a really good warranty and customer service. And GLA stuff is touted as being top of the line equipment. I don't know...never owned anything from them. But they seem to be one of the more highly recommended companies. And sure, Smith may be a high quality regulator. It's still my opinion there's no need to spend that kinda money on one though. I can see splurging on a nice needle valve however.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

t's overkill. Some people just like equipment. Some people like certain types of cars. There's no real extra functionally that you need to spend north of $200 on a regulator for this purpose IMO. At least with the car you might go 0 to 60 faster. I guess you could add a turbo co2 accelerator to the mix. :wink2:


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Nubster said:


> But that's pushing $300...might as well get the GLA and at least have a warranty.


Arguably MUCH better than the GLA...Whether you need much better is your call..




> Features
> Dependable High Pressure Seat - Sure-Seat technology block debris from entering the high pressure seat for a positive gas tight seal time after time. A copper-nickel filter encases the high pressure seat, protecting it from debris, allowing many years of dependable performance.
> Improved Diaphragm - constructed of durable reinforced, laminated Neoprene
> Polycarbonate shatter resistant gauge lenses
> ...


Bump:


houseofcards said:


> t's overkill. Some people just like equipment. Some people like certain types of cars. There's no real extra functionally that you need to spend north of $200 on a regulator for this purpose IMO. At least with the car you might go 0 to 60 faster. I guess you could add a turbo co2 accelerator to the mix. :wink2:


spoke the one who buys $400 plus regulators for $50 used.... 
Well apparently NOT you (sorry).. but many..


> Figured these would be right at home with my Azoo and Milwaukee, but I noticed something on the box of the 1st one I didn't expect to see. The words "Two Stage"


BTW: ONLY reason I mention is is for those that want "new" and need a baseline of "possibilities"...


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

jeffkrol said:


> spoke the one who buys $400 plus regulators for $50 used....
> Well apparently NOT you (sorry).. but many..


In English?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jeffkrol said:


> spoke the one who buys $400 plus regulators for $50 used....
> Well apparently NOT you (sorry).. but many..
> 
> 
> BTW: ONLY reason I mention is is for those that want "new" and need a baseline of "possibilities"...


Yeah, wrong guy buddy. I buy $100 regulators I could understand $200 because of the crappy needle valves, but after that sorry not necessary IMO. I let all my SINGLE STAGE regulators empty out and I've never had EOTD. This is a scare tactic to get people to spend more money. I would say 90% of people running co2 are using single stage and they're not standing over their regular watching the pressure change. Do you know how many people would be posting EOTD if this was the case. In fact many that report EOTD didn't have EOTD.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Nubster said:


> In English?


my mistake.. confused houseofcards w/ one of the "gang"..
Checking I realized he probably isn't..

Many here (myself included) buy/bought used (or new old stock, NOS) 2 stage regulators that would have normally sold for hundreds of dollars ( brass starting at $350..stainless steel $100's more) for pennies on the dollar...
The fact one can get a brand spanking new 2 stage for under $200 is .. err .. somewhat amazing..

Used isn't for everybody or the squeamish..


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Two divergent opinion camps (I'm on the used, two-stage side). GLA is certainly fine and better than Aquatek types. My advice to the OP is to buy whatever allows you to most happily sleep at night.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> This is a scare tactic to get people to spend more money. I would say 90% of people running co2 are using single stage and they're not standing over their regular watching the pressure change. .


I can't argue unknown statistics...
How close to "lethal" do you run your CO2..??

most EOTD seems to come from people running CO2 to barely sub-lethal quantities..A minor change in output can push the tank into lethal ranges.




> *Two-Stage (Dual Stage) Regulator*
> A two-stage pressure regulator is ideal for applications with large variations in the flow rate, significant fluctuations in the inlet pressure, or decreasing inlet pressure such as occurs with gas supplied from a small storage tank or gas cylinder.
> *With most single-stage regulator regulators, except those that use a pressure compensated design, a large drop in inlet pressure will cause a slight increase in outlet pressure.* This happens because the forces acting on the valve change, due to the large drop in pressure, from when the outlet pressure was initially set. In a two-stage design the second stage will not be subjected to these large changes in inlet pressure, only the slight change from the outlet of the first stage. This arrangement results in a stable outlet pressure from the second stage despite the significant changes in pressure supplied to the first stage.


http://www.beswick.com/basics-pressure-regulators
It's just physics...
How important it is to you.. well personal choice..

Besides my main point was one could piece together a 2 stage for AS MUCH as most commercial "premium" units...

Don't think I EVER said one needs a 2 stage.. but if someone told me they were going to run just below lethal quantities of CO2 I would HIGHLY suggest it..

you know that one could just gang 2 cheap 1 stage regulators together..650psi...100psi..30psi..


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

jeffkrol said:


> my mistake.. confused houseofcards w/ one of the "gang"..
> Checking I realized he probably isn't..
> 
> Many here (myself included) buy/bought used (or new old stock, NOS) 2 stage regulators that would have normally sold for hundreds of dollars ( brass starting at $350..stainless steel $100's more) for pennies on the dollar...
> ...


Gotcha...the regulator I used to have I bought here years ago. It was something someone built. Little less than $200 for dual stage and a decent Swagelok need valve. Wasn't high end shiny stainless...but it worked and held adjustment and never moved. I don't need something that's blingy when it's going to be hidden away under the tank stand anyways. If I knew exactly what I needed for the actual regulator, I'd look around and try to find something reasonable and build my own setup.

How about:

Matheson 3120 Series 3500 PSI reg. or MATHESON 3121-350 reg.
Clippard Mouse Solenoid
Fabco NV-55-18 Needle Valve

In for $200 or less.

Any other build options for $200 or less?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jeffkrol said:


> I can't argue unknown statistics...
> How close to "lethal" do you run your CO2..??
> 
> most EOTD seems to come from people running CO2 to barely sub-lethal quantities..A minor change in output can push the tank into lethal ranges.
> ...


You could attach all the science articles and fun facts you want, but the reality is EOTD just doesn't happen often enough to worry about it and certainly doesn't warrant spending north of $300 on a regulator. You are more likely to gas your fish by cleaning your diffuser and not turning down the co2. If you can build one cheaper, more power to you, but most people aren't that into it. They just want to purchase something turnkey. It's hard enough getting newbies to use co2, let alone having them build a reg. 



jeffkrol said:


> ...one of the "gang"..


Who's the gang anyway?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> You could attach all the science articles and fun facts you want, but the reality is EOTD just doesn't happen often enough to worry about it and certainly doesn't warrant spending north of $300 on a regulator.


Possibly but have yet to see ONE EOTD w/ a 2 stage regulator either.. so what? Rare vs non-existent? 




houseofcards said:


> Who's the gang anyway?


alanlee, Bettatail et. al. you are one of the "oldsters" in my history.. 
Blame a failing memory..


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Never mind...just started my own thread.


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## Joshism (Nov 26, 2015)

EOTD happened to two of my cousins. Killed all their fish. If you have to adjust your equipment everyday, then you're probably at risk.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Joshism said:


> EOTD happened to two of my cousins. Killed all their fish. *If you have to adjust your equipment everyday, then you're probably at risk.*


The chances of EOTD happening to your TWO cousins is like a million to one. The fact that your mentioning adjusting equipment everyday tells me it had something to do with the working pressure and/or the needle valve settings and was not EOTD.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

https://youtu.be/M08hPs-J3SM

https://youtu.be/Kf3xc1BGYGo


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Doesn't seem that it would be that dangerous since it happens so fast and just for like 5 seconds. I always imagined EOTD being several minutes long or even longer. That was just BAM and done (that's what she said).


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Nubster said:


> Doesn't seem that it would be that dangerous since it happens so fast and just for like 5 seconds. I always imagined EOTD being several minutes long or even longer. That was just BAM and done (that's what she said).


Well depends on flow rate...My tank will drop pressure for days or weeks on the 40B.........which means the pressure "can" creep up for days or weeks..



> One more note: While a needle valve makes tuning flow rate easier, you don't need to adjust it at the end. The actual EOTD takes several days as the tank runs down, not seconds like I have it here.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

That video is the silliest thing I ever saw and very misleading. If that's EOTD and it happens that quickly and it's lethal to fish it would happen every day here on the forum and twice on Sunday. 

You need to use common sense. The video proves nothing. And how did he happen to capture that. My milwaukee regulator goes completely empty I never watch it and it doesn't do that. He obviously did something to the regulator. the gauge on the right is not even the milwaukee gauge that comes with the regulator so I'm not sure what else he did to it.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> I never watch it and it doesn't do that.


???????????????????????????? 


The Milwaukee was a simulation w/ WAY more discharge flow than ANYONE would use on an aquarium..

Test it yourself..
Only need to 1)shut the tank valve off after setting output pressure to say 50psi and pening needle valve to "full"...
2)Engage solenoid w/ "open air" on the output. See if your output pressure rises.. 

Whole test would take only a few minutes.. I can't do it.. ZERO single stages.





> It is worth noting though that this isn't the issue many people make it out to be. If you are running say 30 ppm of CO2 in a well aerated tank (clean surface ripple) under moderate lighting the plants will be quite happy. If your pressure goes up and your CO2 level raises to say 60 ppm, your fish will still survive. Where you see CO2 deaths are when there is poor surface movement so either the O2 is low or the CO2 level in the water raises up. You also see this if people are running right on the edge of acceptable CO2 levels for their tank (well above 30 ppm) which is not needed in the majority of cases.﻿


DANG you would think it was me............


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Using a single piece of information as good enough is really not smart. Using a single piece of info off the internet is double "not smart" as that leaves the whole question open to be manipulated. New CO2 users can kill their fish in lots of ways but that doesn't make it EOTD.
It is my feeling that much of the info on EOTD is like so many things. Somebody reports it happened to somebody but nobody shows any real proof. Meanwhile there are thousands of single stage CO2 sold by all the commercial dealers and nobody I have ever read about has won a court battle for selling a bad product. 
If it happens enough to be a real problem, my experience says somebody would be making some changes at all the places that sell single stage regs to our hobby. There are good and valid reasons for using dual stage regs but we are not using them to feed O2 to patients or for big operations where things get really expensive when they fail. I use dual stage when it will cost me lots if it fails but not on fish tanks as I have not seen anything to show me that it is likely to cost me.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Ignoring engineers who study these things because one "knows better" is also unsound..
Engineering principal and graphs are SOLID proof of the possibility
You want to argue w/ them.. go right ahead..
https://youtu.be/Kf3xc1BGYGo
I showed houseofcards (and ANYONE) that wants to test it on their own.. go for it.. More data the better 
Proof or disproof is in his hands or ANYONE w/ a single stage regulator..
Not to mention most people inefficiently add CO2 and also have different O2 injections.. plus 1/2 doz other things..



> It is worth noting though that this isn't the issue many people make it out to be. If you are running say 30 ppm of CO2 in a well aerated tank (clean surface ripple) under moderate lighting the plants will be quite happy. If your pressure goes up and your CO2 level raises to say 60 ppm, your fish will still survive. Where you see CO2 deaths are when there is poor surface movement so either the O2 is low or the CO2 level in the water raises up. You also see this if people are running right on the edge of acceptable CO2 levels for their tank (well above 30 ppm) which is not needed in the majority of cases.﻿


EVEN the "tester" has his own statement.............



> my experience says somebody would be making some changes at all the places that sell single stage regs to our hobby.


That's funny............. and likely possibly w/ >30% or more failure rates.. 
How many exploding Pintos were sold after Ford knew about it............?
That's peoples lives.. not fish.

Heck someone could have it in real life and houseofcards or someone else will tell them they are wrong.....
Never gets to the manuf.
Besides the "possibility" is known.. leaving the manuf off the hook.........

Need stone tablets from Mount Ararat??



> Single-stage and two-stage regulators have different droop characteristics and respond differently to changing supply pressure. The single-stage regulator shows little droop with varying flow rates, but a relatively large supply pressure effect. Conversely, the two-stage regulator shows a considerable droop, but only small supply pressure effects. Generally, a single-stage regulator is recommended where inlet pressure does not vary greatly or where periodic readjustment of delivery pressure does not present a problem. A two-stage regulator, however, provides constant delivery pressure with no need for periodic readjustment.


https://industry.airliquide.us/single-stage-versustwo-stage-regulators

PLEASE note: I also qualified it to "people living on the edge" NUMEROUS times...
So did the Milwaukee tester..

Fail to see the reason you have a problem w/ it............

Besides.. it's like insurance.. You BUY peace of mind.. 



> happen to have a perfect example as of my setup today. i normally run 30psi. high psi has been dropping from 800 just over a week now...no ill effects until the topic is brought up....irony i suppose?











http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/planted-tank-specific-13/co2-tank-question-about-end-tank-dump-32906/

Orig discussion about the video..........

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/148119-end-tank-dump-video.html



> By adding the low pressure regulator downstream of the Milwaukee regulator, you converted it into a two stage regulator. This is a very good video to see. And, I hope it puts this issue to rest. Rex Grigg used to sell a low pressure regulator for this use, but I don't recall him ever giving a good explanation about why it was needed. I think he probably discovered just what you did, and that was why he recommended that extra regulator.



Math...



> Q: What is a two-stage regulator's effect on supply pressure?
> 
> A: You are going to have the supply pressure effect operating on both regulators. With supply pressure effect, there is an inverse reaction on the outlet pressure to a change in inlet pressure. For example, when the inlet pressure decreases the outlet pressure increases. Conversely, when the inlet pressure increases the outlet pressure decreases.
> 
> ...


https://northerncal.swagelok.com/bl...o-stage-regulator-s-effect-on-supply-pressure


Soo say your inlet pressure drops from 800psi to 100psi.. 700 x .01 = increase in 7psi.. whether that would be enough to gas fish is dependent on the concentration increase in the water..



Oddly enough one would "predict" , roughly a 3psi increase on the outlet pressure w/ the above Smith Reg photo
Guessitmating about 7psi from the photo

Also:


> The valve coefficient, Cv, is a number which represents the capability of a valve (or any flow component) to flow a fluid. *The larger the Cv, the larger the flow at a given pressure differential.*


so flow would increase much more in a reactor type CO2 injection system.......


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

Had to subscribe to this thread, even if it`s only for the entertainment value regarding single stage regulators and EOTD:smile2:
Funny thing is , every Google search regarding EOTD does not include a traditional 2 stage regulator, well maybe i missed a few.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

This thread does go on. I have a dual stage so, no personal experience with single stage. No doubt that most high quality single stage will not experience EOTD, especially if a high quality needle valve is involved. I have seen many reports of EOTD with single stage, assuming they are true, and knew of one acquaintance that did experience it, but he had an Amazon cheapy.

Maybe the OP should look at it from a different angle. If there is a 1% probability that the plane you are getting on is going to crash, will you get on it? If you are the mommy guppy that just had 10 babies, do you want your owner to buy a single stage or dual stage? Of course, we don't know the probability of an EOTD. Maybe it is a million to one, but maybe it's a hundred to one - no data. I have gassed fish, so I know CO2 beyond tolerance can kill within an hour.

For the minimal price difference, my purchase decision was based upon 'it's better safe than sorry.' Does anyone in this hobby think it is an inexpensive hobby after you accumulate stuff over the years?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

You have the greatest sample of co2 users right here and all you do is attach various videos and links from the internet. I've been doing this like 12 years with co2, have used milwaukee, azoo, aquatek, probably around a total of 10 regulators. They all are single stage and they all go down to nothing until I refill, none have ever EOTD. And these are the cheaper single stage not the higher quality ones sold at GLA, etc. If that's living on the edge after 12 years I'll take those odds any time. 

It's no secret jeffkrol you like tech specs, so it doesn't surprise me that you would push what's technically possible versus what actually happens. Well it's technically possible that a fish can jump 6" out of a rimless tank, but no one keeps their water 6" from the top. It's technically possible that a fish will die from eating freeze-dried food, but most will take the risk. A lot of things are technically possible but are so remote it's not even worth giving it serious consideration. 

Why would I mess with anything after doing this for 12 years and having zero issues? There are thousands of people here with the majority using single-stage you would see a thread or more a day on this topic. It just doesn't happen. 

Like @PlantedRich stated if it was such a problem, the truth would have come out long ago and no one would buy nor would vendors sell single stage regulators anymore. Look at all the single-stage regulators GLA sells and they even advertise no EOTD. As stated, most people report EOTD incorrectly, they are usually new to co2 and didn't adjust the regulator correctly. 

But the most glaring reason it's a waste is the forum itself. It just doesn't happen and people shouldn't think they need to spend $300-$500 on a dual stage regulator to get into co2 or build one (which many have no interest in doing).


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> You have the greatest sample of co2 users right here and all you do is attach various videos and links from the internet. I've been doing this like 12 years with co2, have used milwaukee, azoo, aquatek, probably around a total of 10 regulators. They all are single stage and they all go down to nothing until I refill, none have ever EOTD. And these are the cheaper single stage not the higher quality ones sold at GLA, etc. If that's living on the edge after 12 years I'll take those odds any time.


You mis-interpret what I meant by living on the edge..
I meant when living on the CO2 injection edge..
What is your CO2 ppm?

If you are running like 10ppm CO2 any temporary increase in CO2 due to "anything" it will probably not kill anything..ever

Clearly stated that.. 

My POINT is outlet pressure rise as input pressure decreases is a known phenomena..How it effects one individually is another question..

to ADD info to this I asked you specifically (and only because you are here and handy) to do the SIMPLE test w/ your 1 stages.
See if output pressure does increase..
Only costs pennies of CO2 and min time..

Time has little to do w/ anything btw........

Would you prefer I just cal it EOTPI

End of tank pressure increase, therefore neutering it as to its negative connotations or severity...

you, and others, have the means to replicate the Milwaukee video.. yet you seem to choose not to.

so who is attempting to add reality to this or just hearsay?

Call it a challenge to prove it once and for all.......
Up for it?

I don't care if "I'm" wrong because, yes, I'm going on the footsteps of others..
Logically can't see how I am incorrect as a CO2 delivery increase is always possible at the end of the tank w/ a simple one stage regulator 

So for those w/ 1 stage regs.. go for it.. 
Charge your reg w/ solenoid off and "free air" after the solenoid and needle valve open full
Shut tank valve
Engage solenoid
Observe lp gauge till pressure is zero 
Report data
Do real science.. 

Besides it may give a better data base about ones that are more or less.. err "problematic".......


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

IMO:

EOTD is just another aspect of the control difference between single and dual stage, with EOTD just being the more pronounced part of control and I have found several comments about people having to adjust pressure toward the end of their tanks to compensate for the drift. There is, as any manufacturer or gas user will advise, simply more precise control with dual stage, which is why they make them. Do we need it? Depends upon how close to the "edge" we want to get.

The “edge” that @jeffkrol references is the crossover to fish death. We all try to find the max limit where fish gasp, and then hold CO2 just below that point. We have no way to measure CO2 levels with precision, so we can’t know how close to actual death zones we are. With single stage, the buffer zone needs to be wider than with the more precise control of dual stage to increase security. pH controllers are probably better suited to single stage to tighten that buffer. If we just plugged the CO2 line directly into the cylinder, that buffer zone would need to be even wider, which is why we use any type of regulator at all.

We don’t have a good sampling here on TPT because no sampling has ever been conducted. At least, I haven’t found any statistically valid studies anywhere. To state that we would see more comments from single stage users about EOTD problems if they existed does not mean that they don’t exist. It means that we don't know how common it is. It would be better to ask if users that gas fish have single stage or dual stage regulators because, as some have mentioned, who really knows if they had an EOTD when their fish died?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Deanna said:


> The “edge” that @*jeffkrol* references is the crossover to fish death. We all try to find the max limit where fish gasp, and then hold CO2 just below that point. We have no way to measure CO2 levels with precision, so we can’t know how close to actual death zones we are. With single stage, the buffer zone needs to be wider than with the more precise control of dual stage to increase security. pH controllers are probably better suited to single stage to tighten that buffer. If we just plugged the CO2 line directly into the cylinder, that buffer zone would need to be even wider, which is why we use any type of regulator at all.
> 
> *We don’t have a good sampling here on TPT because no sampling has ever been conducted. *At least, I haven’t found any statistically valid studies anywhere. To state that we would see more comments from single stage users about EOTD problems if they existed does not mean that they don’t exist. It means that we don't know how common it is. It would be better to ask if users that gas fish have single stage or dual stage regulators because, as some have mentioned, who really knows if they had an EOTD when their fish died?


thanks.. and for FUN..


> Please Dear God not this needle valve / EOTD argument again!!!!!!!
> 
> We just had a 55 post thread on this very topic 2 weeks ago!!
> 03-28-2012, 09:23 PM


http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/8...ussion/170757-end-tank-dump-co2-disaster.html

On that note I'd figure its not very common for a few simple reasons:
1)People have been aware of the "possibility" for a loooonnnngg time
2)Few really probably effectively run at the near death threshold to begin with..


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I just read a bunch of internet links of people claiming they had EOTD with dual stage regulators. The Internet, it's a wild west show.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Yea many people confuse dual gauge w/ dual stage.. Ignorance abounds..............  


Test yours yet?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jeffkrol said:


> Yea many people confuse dual gauge w/ dual stage.. Ignorance abounds..............
> 
> 
> Test yours yet?


I agree, but it just shows the ignorance of people saying "EOTD" It turns out it was dual STAGE and it doesn't appear to be EOTD. Again people report it like the guy in this thread "my two cousins" had EOTD"


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

so you are saying everyone's stupid and EOTD never occurs.. Check


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jeffkrol said:


> so you are saying everyone's stupid and EOTD never occurs.. Check


I think you better check the definition of ignorant. Everyone is ignorant when they are new to something. Didn't you just say this a few posts up?



jeffkrol said:


> Yea many people confuse dual gauge w/ dual stage.. Ignorance abounds..............
> Test yours yet?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> I think you better check the definition of ignorant. Everyone is ignorant when they are new to something. Didn't you just say this a few posts up?


I know the difference between ignorance and stupid...........
Ignorance of the difference between dual gauge and dual stage is forgivable..

Ignoring known engineering principals is stupid....


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jeffkrol said:


> I know the difference between ignorance and stupid...........
> Ignorance of the difference between dual gauge and dual stage is forgivable..
> 
> Ignoring known engineering principals is stupid....


I hope so. So this was not necessary since I only used the word ignorant. 



jeffkrol said:


> so you are saying everyone's stupid and EOTD never occurs.. Check


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Maybe everyone is ignorant compared to you...............




> "Before I went to dual stage regulators, I would regularly see the gradual rise in output (working) pressure as the input pressure reduced. I've seen this in a Redsea and Total Beverages single stage regulator. Not realizing that when the supplied pressure dropped from 800 PSI, that there was less than 10 % CO2 left, I would daily tweak the working pressure back to my intended 10 PSI setting on a daily basis. Yep, every morning I would adjust the working pressure back to 10 PSI until the bottle was finally empty. I used 20 OZ and 24 OZ paintball cylinders and did this to squeeze a month usage out a cylinder. Maybe I shouldn't have worked so hard to save 40 cents per month. Since I did look at the working pressure on a daily basis, I never did observe the fabled EOTD. With Victor VTS 250 C dual stage regulators, I don't see the working pressure move anymore. Sometimes I do run the paintball cylinders completely empty without seeing the working pressure move."


Or like the above. EOTD is just misnamed..


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

No really not a tech person, so I could still be ignorant with some co2 things. 

Doesn't matter 12 years of using single stage is what matters. The VAST majority of co2 users using single stage is what matters. Every major seller that I know of that sells co2 regulators sells single-stage ones. Do you think they wouldn't get email after email of customers blaming them for gasing their fish. If it happened often enough they wouldn't sell them anymore. 

GLA even list their least expensive full size SINGLE STAGE regulator as "No End of Tank Dumps"

GRO CO2 regulators - Green Leaf Aquariums

Why would they do that if it's going to EOTD. They're actually putting themselves out there and saying "NO EOTD" The likelihood of getting EOTD is so remote it doesn't even warrant me continuing this conversation, sorry. Now where's that thread about fish jumping out of open-top tanks with the water 6" from the top. Now that's something to worry about.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Why would Ford continue to sell exploding Pintos?.. Odds and cost... 
Why does CO2Art continue to sell those crappy 2 stage models.. odds and costs.


I stated my case and beliefs.. Let people decide for themselves..


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## britter2 (May 4, 2017)

OP here, thought I'd pop back in. For all those wondering about the original topic, I've decided to go with the GLA GRO-1 regulator, thank you all for giving me so many opinions/options to consider.

For those of you who don't want to sift through all 47 comments, see my TLDR; 

jeffkrol really, REALLY wants you to buy/build a dual-stage and doesn't like anybody who doesn't think it's necessary - houseofcards doesn't think it's necessary. Scattered in between their little catfight, there are some very helpful and pertinent posts from various people that gave me some good advice (either from personal or anecdotal experience) that helped me make my decision, so I'd like to thank you guys!


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jeffkrol said:


> Why would Ford continue to sell exploding Pintos?.. Odds and cost...
> Why does CO2Art continue to sell those crappy 2 stage models.. odds and costs.
> 
> 
> I stated my case and beliefs.. Let people decide for themselves..


Looks like the OP did :wink2: BTW: Where can I still get a new Ford Pinto?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> Looks like the OP did :wink2: BTW: Where can I still get a new Ford Pinto?


In magic one stage land.. 




> jeffkrol really, REALLY wants you to buy/build a dual-stage and doesn't like anybody who doesn't think it's necessary


PURE BS....................
Don't like people denying engineering and math reality regarding how one stage regulators work...


It's just physics and mechanics...
How important it is to you.. well personal choice..


> Besides my main point was one could piece together a 2 stage for AS MUCH as most commercial "premium" units...
> 
> Don't think I EVER said one needs a 2 stage.. but if someone told me they were going to run just below lethal quantities of CO2 I would HIGHLY suggest it..


You definitely have a READING COMPREHENSION problem............

I posted this:
https://youtu.be/M08hPs-J3SM

houseofcards practically insisted it was faked..
told him to try it himself (w/ instructions) to prove or disprove that this can happen.
Exactly what it means was already discussed..

He didn't ..
nobody w/ a single stage tried it either..

Thus wasting my time... and CONTRIBUTING... nothing..



> Has anybody really experienced an EOTD?
> 
> I've run a Redsea Paintball Regulator and Needle Valve (not exactly high dollar) for two years and routinely ran the bottle empty. The only time I would swap the 20 oz bottle before it ran empty is when I was not going to be home to swap the bottle for a full one. When the regulator would show the co2 tank pressure in the red (low) zone, the working pressure would increase about 5 psi. 5 psi isn't an EOTD in my estimation.





> When I used a Milwaukee regulator assembly I had end of tank dumps almost every time the tank ran out of CO2. Most times I was observant enough to catch it, but I lost a lot of fish the times I wasn't. That regulator also acts up during the warmup of a refilled tank. The tank starts out cold - low pressure in it. As it warms up the tank pressure goes up, making the outlet pressure drop to near zero. Until I bit the bullet and just waited for the tank to warm up before turning the CO2 back on, I had to readjust the regulator back up to 15-20 psi several times every time I refilled the tank. That one regulator, or possibly my one specimen of that one regulator definitely did change outlet pressure inversely with the inlet pressure, badly enough to make it a royal pain to use.
> 
> I was using an external DIY reactor, but any method where you depend on the bubble rate to stay steady will be adversely affected by this. It doesn't dump the entire contents of the tank quickly, it just increases the bubble rate by a factor of 2 or so, causing CO2 poisoning for the fish. -* Hoppy*


http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/94801-legendary-end-tank-dump.html



> You'd figure given the risk, livestock, importance of CO2, folks would tell new folks and suggest to others to go all out on a nice well made CO2 dual stage reg, solenoid(never add CO2 at night), good current, nice well made needle valve.
> 
> And yet many do not..............
> 
> ...


(mike drop...done... bigger fish to not fry.. or gas.. )


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## Joshism (Nov 26, 2015)

houseofcards said:


> I agree, but it just shows the ignorance of people saying "EOTD" It turns out it was dual STAGE and it doesn't appear to be EOTD. Again people report it like the guy in this thread "my two cousins" had EOTD"


My 2 cousins had their single stage regulators consistent from full. When it started going empty, all their fish died. They didn't have to set theirs daily. What I meant was that if one's setup needs adjusting daily, they're even more at risk. Where are you getting your 1 million to 1 statistics? Every resource says the same thing about single stage regulators.

https://industry.airliquide.co.za/single-stage-versus-two-stage-regulators
Single-stage and two-stage regulators have different droop characteristics and respond differently to changing supply pressure. The single-stage regulator shows little droop with varying flow rates, but a relatively large supply pressure effect. Conversely, the two-stage regulator shows a considerable droop, but only small supply pressure effects. A single-stage regulator is recommended where inlet pressure does not vary greatly or where periodic readjustment of delivery pressure does not present a problem. A two-stage regulator, however, provides constant delivery pressure with no need for periodic readjustment.

https://www.mathesongas.com/pdfs/litCenter/SpecGas&EquipmentBrochures/Guide to Regulators.pdf
The advantage of a dual stage regulator is its ability to deliver a constant pressure, even with a decrease in inlet pressure. For example, as a cylinder of gas is depleted, the cylinder pressure drops. Under these conditions, single stage regulators exhibit decaying inlet characteristic; the delivery pressure increases as a result of the decrease in inlet pressure. In a dual stage regulator, the second stage compensates for this increase, providing a constant delivery pressure regardless of inlet pressure. The dual stage regulator is recommended for applications such as gas supply to analytical instruments, where constant delivery pressure is critical. 

https://www.purityplusgases.com/faq...een-a-single-stage-and-a-dual-stage-regulator
Single-stage regulators reduce pressure in merely one step to generate pressure within a specified range. Regulators created accordingly will display an insignificant variation in delivery pressure as the cylinder pressure decreases when in use. Because of this, single-stage regulators are most suitable for applications in which a constant outlet pressure is not vital, where an operator can monitor and readjust pressure, or where an inlet pressure is stable. 
Dual-stage regulators perform the same function as single-stage regulators; however, delivery pressure holds constant as cylinder pressure declines. Heightened accuracy in pressure control is maintained because the reduction of pressure is achieved in two steps. Dual-staged regulators are recommended for applications that require a constant outlet pressure for the life of a gas cylinder.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

@jeffkrol

Oh my gosh, you revived this thread again after it seemed to reach its natural conclusion with the OP @britter2 chiming in and summarizing the thread and making his decision, which you apparently can't accept. You then changed your final comment that ended things and rehashed some more internet links.

1. The OP purchased a single-stage regulator from GLA. A quality vendor that states "No EOTD"
2. Every major co2 regulator seller sells single stage. 
3. There are thousands upon thousands using them and it's the vast majority of members right here on TPT.

OK, I did some quick and dirty statistics taking into consideration the number of confirmed EOTD, households with fish, weighting those households to determine likelihood of households with planted aquaria and further down to the subset of planted aquaria with co2 injection. 

So based on that, the odds of you having an EOTD is somewhere between:

Being hit by a meteorite (1 in 700,000) and being eaten by a shark (1 in 11.5 million). I apologize for the large margin of error, but the sample size (valid EOTD instances) was just too small.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> @*jeffkrol*
> 
> Oh my gosh, you revived this thread again after it seemed to reach its natural conclusion with the OP @*britter2* chiming in and summarizing the thread and making his decision, which you apparently can't accept. You then changed your final comment that ended things and rehashed some more internet links.
> 
> ...





> A quality vendor that states "No EOTD"


Vested financial interest tells you stuff to sell stuff..

BTW:
I politely asked you to test your regulators to add information to the collective.................you refuse to help..
Enough said...
and

GO back to statistics 101 .. you failed..
I purposely left out Tom Barrs "statistics" as not valid as well..

Go argue W/ Tom..


> It's common sense.
> It's also based on risk, how many folks have you read about on these forums that have ever killed their fish with Kh2PO4? KNO3? Trace mix?
> 
> None by my count.
> ...


It's not "JUST ME".....


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I tried to end this fruitless discussion a while back and you stated



jeffkrol said:


> ....I stated my case and beliefs.. Let people decide for themselves..


But you couldn't let that stand. Tom Barr's regulator that he claims EOTDs every time is not a valid sample of what happens over thousands of single stage regulators and you know that. I don't need to do any testing. The true test is 10 year of normal use. The way the regulator intended to be used, LOL, that's ridiculous. 

If your so sure of your data, engineering reports, etc. why not publish a white paper on it or better yet push for a recall of all single-stage regulators to save all the little fishes from their impending doom.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> I tried to end this fruitless discussion a while back


forgive me king poo poo... I did not realize that you are THE ARBITRATOR of discussions..

BTW:
why not test the regulators you have on hand????

I refuse to let the world fall into scientific idiocracy.............


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

You know.. I respect the hell outta both of you and have had great and fruitful discussions with either... but, 


via Imgflip Meme Generator

well.. almost facebook. but good enough. Don't feel like generating my own.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Keep the discussion going with yourself then, while every company, and the majority of people will continue to use single stage. 

You put more weight in a few internet links then you do in the thousands of members here who use single stage and never have EOTD. 



jeffkrol said:


> I refuse to let the world fall into scientific idiocracy.............


Your kidding right?


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

I will say this, for me personally if i`m injecting CO2 at levels over 20 PPM of Saturation, i will never do so with any commercially available hobby grade single stage co 2 regulators on the market unless i`m using a PH controller in conjunction with the single stage, but that is a personal choice like most things in this hobby.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> Keep the discussion going with yourself then, while every company, and the majority of people will continue to use single stage.
> 
> You put more weight in a few internet links then you do in the thousands of members here who use single stage and never have EOTD.
> 
> ...


No not kidding at all..see it daily..

But that aside saying "EVERYONE only needs a one stage" is as ridiculous as saying "everyone needs a 2 stage.".

So we just need to agree to disagree and move on. 

Though my overall position was quite clear posts ago...

You certainly are not COMPLETELY wrong.. neither am I...............  

Seems a reasonable compromise eh?
I KNOW I shouldn't do this but ...just..can't ...resist..
history:


> When the big debate over DSR v SSR first came up there were some members claiming that all you needed was a quality needle valve and you would be safe. As I understood the principle behind a needle valve (can only control flow of a gas in relation to a specific input pressure) I knew this was malarkey. So I actually sent an email to both Swagelok and Ideal explaining the debate and from both of them I received an email reply stating that what I was saying was correct and that no matter how much/how high quality the NV was it could not by design negate an EOTD. I even got a call from a Swagelok district sales rep and he told me about a system that they had to use in conjunction with one of their SSR that was basically a pressure relief valve that would divert the excess pressure flow back through the regulator recycling the extra gas. Then I learned that the system was ~$400 and got the sales man to say that if you had a dual stage regulator there would be no need for the pressure relief flow diverting system!
> 
> You see sometimes I may come off as argumentative but it is only for the reason of getting and all of the myriad myths/folk lore/witch craft that have been in the hobby for many times longer then I have been in it.


http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/141533-end-tank-dump-experiment-now-results-6.html


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## britter2 (May 4, 2017)

I contacted GLA regarding this issue, and here is a direct quote copied and pasted from the email they sent me regarding outlet pressure variation and EOTD:

"You are correct on decay and rise with the Pro is 0.01 and the Gro 0.10 at sea level. Both incredibly so low you would be hard pressed to see some sort of failure. Unless you either knock the kit over on its side, or some freak phenomenon happens where your valves are adjusted without consent. The bodies have huge internals over 2" and are UL listed. This insures the components are legit and not toy like with zero inspections. 

EOTD is more geared towards cheap alternatives with poor valve seats and no actual spec control. Its usually associated with metal on plastic valve seats and small internal diaphragms. They simply are unable to keep rise stable under its decay. The smaller the diaphragms with plastic internals, you get a freeze from co2 passing and wallah. The orifices will also change in valves on the exit side, like needle valve internals made of plastic valve seats. As freezing co2 pass's through the holes get larger and co2 will blast through faster than you can count."



From these values provided by GLA, assuming an extreme end tolerance stack of the GLA GRO single stage regulator, the max outlet pressure change you would see in a worst case scenario is approximately +0.8psi. If you wanted to shell out the extra $50 for the GLA PRO single stage regulator, you're looking at a +0.08psi swing. Now I'm not saying that these values are comparable with dual stage (I honestly have no idea what their decay/rise values are), but a variation of less than 1 psi over the last 800-1000psi in my CO2 tank isn't going to make me bat an eye and will not be lethal to anything in the tank. 

For all of those who were clamoring for "proof" about the effectiveness of high end single stage regulators, well here it is.

Bump: Before anybody comes back with some half-hearted "but dual stage is better" argument (which I don't think anybody is actually disagreeing with, only questioning the necessity), how about contacting the manufacturers of your regulators to get information about the decay/rise so we can actually analyze the concrete data and make an informed decision about which regulator to choose. This is the kind of information I was looking for when I made this post, not a 3 day long argument full of opinionated anecdotes that didn't actually help me at all.

With that in mind, I would genuinely appreciate if anybody can find these values for their dual stage so we can have an educational comparison of the two to see how much more effective dual stage actually is than single.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jeffkrol said:


> ...
> 
> But that aside saying "EVERYONE only needs a one stage" is as ridiculous as saying "everyone needs a 2 stage.".


BTW where did I say the above? Why didn't you just use the quote function in the post where I said that? You not only put "" around it but your capitilized the word EVERYONE to make it appear that I said it and said it exactly the way you wrote it above. Please show me where I said it.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> Tom Barr's regulator that he claims EOTDs every time is not a valid sample of what happens over thousands of single stage regulators and you know that. I don't need to do any testing.





> So based on that, the odds of you having an EOTD is somewhere between:
> 
> Being hit by a meteorite (1 in 700,000) and being eaten by a shark (1 in 11.5 million). I apologize for the large margin of error, but the sample size (valid EOTD instances) was just too small.


Logical conclusion since 2 stage regulators are good to avoid EOTD.... BUT EOTD is EXTREMELY remote at best to non-extant WHY would anyone need a 2 stage ?



> But that aside saying "EVERYONE only needs a one stage" is as ridiculous as saying "everyone needs a 2 stage.".


and never said you said it.. but your argument inferred it...


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> , how about contacting the manufacturers of your regulators to get information about the decay/rise so we can actually analyze the concrete data and make an informed decision about which regulator to choose. This is the kind of information I was looking for when I made this post, not a 3 day long argument full of opinionated anecdotes that didn't actually help me at all.


you ignored most of the manf data..



> What’s the difference between single and two-stage regulators?
> A single stage regulator’s outlet pressure actually creeps up automatically as the cylinder
> inlet pressure decreases. For example, an oxygen regulator’s outlet pressure* may rise from
> ¼ psi to 2 psi for every 100 psi decline in cylinder pressure. *
> ...


http://www.smithequipment.com/files/pdf/resources/FAQ_GasRegulation.pdf

Maybe I need to paint a picture.......










also why do you think I asked people to test their own?
For ME?.. Hardly.. I already made my own personal decision.........

The GLA answer is a bit "creative"... 

But again a 5psi pressure increase during a full tank discharge time-frame MAY be inconsequential.. 
Never said any less..

SR-250 from 900psi to zero is 9x .5psi = 4.5psi
http://www.esabna.com/eu/literature...09/regulator reference data 14-23_65-2007.pdf

victor/smith or GLA... hmmmm


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

What I can't believe is I have a better chance of being hit by a meteorite than eaten by a shark.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Nubster said:


> What I can't believe is I have a better chance of being hit by a meteorite than eaten by a shark.


That's the danger in believing what you read on the Internet ...yes; even here on the venerable TPT forum. Credulity abounds. However, I will take a chance and say that, if you never go into the water, you will never be eaten by a shark, but you can't avoid a meteorite that has your name on it.

Life is full of danger, even for our fish exposed to regulator behavior. You never know if yours will be the one that fails, which is why many of us try to increase the safety net. I knew a man, once, that never needed life insurance ...until he died.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jeffkrol said:


> Logical conclusion since 2 stage regulators are good to avoid EOTD.... BUT EOTD is EXTREMELY remote at best to non-extant WHY would anyone need a 2 stage ?
> 
> and never said you said it.. but your argument inferred it...


Didn't realize you had the power to infer what other people are saying/thinking and then you put it in quotes like they said it. How sad the extent you'll go to, to win a discussion when it doesn't go your way. 

Maybe if you post a few hundred more articles, engineering schematics and some notable testimonials from qualified engineers I'll reconsider my position, Elon Musk comes to mind. It will still be hard to ignore the vast majority of users that use single stage right here at TPT as a better indicator. 

Interesting how you completely ignored the post from the OP based on his discussion with GLA and why their single stage regulators are not prone to EOTD? Are they not legit? With all the technical information you posted, why not discuss the OPs post? Oh yeah, because it doesn't agree with your position.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> "You are correct on decay and rise with the Pro is 0.01 and the Gro 0.10 at sea level. Both incredibly so low you would be hard pressed to see some sort of failure. Unless you either knock the kit over on its side, or some freak phenomenon happens where your valves are adjusted without consent. The bodies have huge internals over 2" and are UL listed. This insures the components are legit and not toy like with zero inspections.
> 
> EOTD is more geared towards cheap alternatives with poor valve seats and no actual spec control. Its usually associated with metal on plastic valve seats and small internal diaphragms. They simply are unable to keep rise stable under its decay. The smaller the diaphragms with plastic internals, you get a freeze from co2 passing and wallah. The orifices will also change in valves on the exit side, like needle valve internals made of plastic valve seats. As freezing co2 pass's through the holes get larger and co2 will blast through faster than you can count."


Garbage... .01 what? Bars? Percent? PSI?


UL?.. Big deal.. so the thing won't blow up.. Neither will a Victor.. but both will rise w/ a decrease in tank pressure
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/...n=versionless&parent_id=1073996049&sequence=1


> 1.4 *These requirements do not cover:*
> a) LP-Gas pressure regulators for equipment intended for installation and use in accordance
> with requirements of the Liquefied Petroleum Gas Code, NFPA 58. Such regulators are
> evaluated under the Standard for LP-Gas Regulators, UL 144.
> ...


UL252.............



> Maybe if you post a few hundred more articles, engineering schematics and some notable testimonials from qualified engineers I'll reconsider my position


LOL you would never reconsider your position no matter what.. Won't even check your own equipment for output creep.........


Aren't you done yet?? I'm trying..really..


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## britter2 (May 4, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Garbage... .01 what? Bars? Percent? PSI?


I should have included part of my original question, perhaps that would clear it up. In my research, I found this quote from GLA and I contacted the reps asking if it was true and if they can reconfirm it:

"The Pro is incredibly precise with a decay and rise of 0.01psi for every 100psi lost"

So in regards to your question, the outlet pressure of GLA's PRO single stage regulator will vary 0.01psi for every 100psi of working pressure lost from the tank, whereas the GRO model varies 0.1psi. Considering EOTD and outlet pressure variation doesn't really come into play until the last 800-1000 psi or so (an estimate, based on my research and from anecdotes of other posts on here), you're looking at a variation of less than 1 psi near the end of your tank. 

Just to play devils advocate and apply these figures over the life of the entire tank, not just the end when pressure changes and EOTD is potentially a concern. My personal tank is rated for 1800psi, and with the GRO regulator I've purchased, in an improbable worst case scenario my outlet pressure varies by 1.8 psi over the entire life of the tank (I have yet to reach the end of a tank, but my LFS with similar CO2 demands claim I should get a min of 6 months out of my 5lb tank). 

And since jeffkrol is a fan of engineering, he should be well aware of how a factor of safety (FOS) is calculated and that an accepted standard is the minimum calculation for a factor of safety should be at least 1.5, Additionally, before a company would put their reputation on the line with throwing out specific numbers, they also probably calculated a confidence interval (CI), which jeffkrol should understand to be at least 95%. Now this isn't a bridge or an elevator where peoples lives are at risk, but for GLA to come up with such specific values for their psi decay/rise that they are staking their company reputation on would imply that they likely considered and calculated either one or both FOS and CI. 

If they used FOS as their calculation, the basic GRO model has an actual psi rise of approximately +0.067, which multiplied by 1.5 gives the +0.1psi that they stand by.
If they calculated a 95% CI (which is the proper way to do it, imo), the basic GRO model has an actual psi rise of approximately +0.065psi. To get this value I assumed their mean is 0.1psi and their std dev is 0.033psi, which are conservative values.

IN CONCLUSION, I would place my bets that GLA used one of these two methods to produce those final estimates for psi rise/decay so they can build a bit of a safety zone in order to save their asses in case the outlet pressure rises more than +.06psi. I obviously made some assumptions to get the CI value, but assuming that the std dev is a third of the process mean is fairly conservative and I would bet that the actual psi rise for the GRO model is between 0.06 and 0.1 psi for every 100psi lost in the tank.


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## britter2 (May 4, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> you ignored most of the manf data..
> 
> 
> http://www.smithequipment.com/files/pdf/resources/FAQ_GasRegulation.pdf
> ...


Seems that GLA makes much higher quality regs than Smith, or whatever brand it is that you're rolling with

Bump:


jeffkrol said:


> LOL you would never reconsider your position no matter what.. Won't even check your own equipment for output creep.........
> 
> 
> Aren't you done yet?? I'm trying..really..


Also seems like you'll continue to be conceited and never reconsider your position either, regardless of whatever data and proof is presented


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

britter2 said:


> Seems that GLA makes much higher quality regs than Smith, or whatever brand it is that you're rolling with
> 
> Bump:
> 
> Also seems like you'll continue to be conceited and never reconsider your position either, regardless of whatever data and proof is presented


GLA doesn't "make" regulators..(old image btw.. current supplier of regulators is?)
There is no conciet in facts and I've never said not to buy a 1 stage nor one needs a 2 stage..








GLA CO2 Regulator | Green Leaf Aquariums

I stated ALL 1 stage drift at end of tank.. no more no less....
I have no problem in saying that if GLA is accurate it is a good reg. but still drifts.. some.. 

you don't need to justify your purchase to me btw........


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