# Stems melting/detaching in middle of plant...why?



## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I have a high tech 60P and I have this issue where stems will randomly turn black and part of the plant will separate from the bottom portion. It has happened to Rotala rotundifolia and other similar plants. The tank is not totally balanced, I do get green algae on the glass and some diatoms but this is sort of a new tank (tank has been setup for awhile but all new plants).

I was EI dosing but lost one of my smaller spoons so I am doing 2x dosing, haven't water changed in awhile. Can too much ferts cause this issue?

CO2 was high, but I have now turned it down to where it may be limiting, less than 30PPM I am guessing (my drop checker solution is green without CO2, yellow with any level, so I don't trust it). I turned down the CO2 because growth was too rapid, large trims cause existing algae to thrive. 

This isn't a big problem for me, but I have struggle with high tech tanks since I started them. My first high tech tank was very easy, but towards the end, this problem happened to me as well. That was many years ago, but I also recall dosing more than recommended. In that tank, it started to get worse and worse, plants would just continually separate, then the started melting off. 

Plants seem otherwise healthy, some are showing curled leaves but not to the point that I feel their is a very serious deficiency. It may be the opposite, too much of one fert. 

Any help with this is greatly appreciated. It's a minor annoyance to me ATM, but in my other experiences, it became a much bigger issue as time went on. In that tank, everything was great for approximately 3 years, then this same thing started, in this tank, I would say most plants, and the restart, happened about a month ago, maybe longer, but not by much.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi talonsiawd,

A picture is worth a thousand words, it is much easier to try and define an issue if we have some idea of what the problem looks like, in this case the leaf curling issue.

I see you are in Oakland so you get about the same water as Tom Barr.....soft Sierra snow melt. Are you adding GH Booster to your tank(s) if so how much per 5 gallons? This may be the cause, do any of these symptoms seem familiar?


> Margins of young leaves are scalloped and abnormally green and, due to inhibition of cell wall formation, the leaf tips may be "gelatinous" and stuck together inhibiting leaf unfolding. Stem structure is weak and peduncle collapse or shoot topple may occur. Roots are stunted. Downward curl of leaf tips (hooking) occurs near terminal bud. ammonium or magnesium excess may induce a calcium deficiency in plants... *calcium deficiency*


Here in Seattle we have similar water, my tap water has 7ppm of Ca and about 0.5 ppm of Mg - GH Booster is my friend. Tom suggests targeting about 4.0 - 5.0 dGH but I typically am running 7.0 - 8.0 dGH.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

talontsiawd said:


> I was EI dosing but lost one of my smaller spoons so I am doing 2x dosing, haven't water changed in awhile. Can too much ferts cause this issue?


It certainly can, esp if you recently doubled EI micros on top of not doing water changes.

Before you start chasing deficiencies, do a big water change, like 80%, and get back to regular EI with 50% weekly water changes.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi talonsiawd,
> 
> A picture is worth a thousand words, it is much easier to try and define an issue if we have some idea of what the problem looks like, in this case the leaf curling issue.
> 
> ...


I will get some pictures soon (hopefully) but that actually does sound like what may be going on. Any plant that is red and doesn't do well when it doesn't get enough light is a decent shade of red but any Rotala stems that can be grown green stay almost completely green. So my Macrandra is red but another species, sold to me as Rotundifolia HRA has turned totally green. The curling and this sounds like what your quote is discussing. 

I am not up on my chemistry, in EI dosing, where would magnesium come into play? I am wondering if I may have an excess of that, rather than a calcium deficiency. I am weary about a deficiency, due to the fact I am running my CO2 around half of where I saw any stress from fish, and my light (Current Satellite Pro) is only at 50% right now. Basically, I am kind of half way to a true high tech setup, so nutrient demand should be lower. 

I am adding Seachem GH booster once a week, 1/8 of a teaspoon or so, and I don't recall when or why I choose that number, I used to not use it at all, then for awhile, I was using R/O water as an experiment, and just continued to do so at that amount. I got sick of lugging 5 gallon jugs and went back to regular tap water. 

Is their any test kits you would recommend to track this down? Chemistry has never been my thing so I typically just do best following instructions and trusting others, than trying to figure things out on my own.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Matt (@talontsiawd)

Assuming your water comes from the East Bay Municipal Utility District (EBMUD) your water could be very soft to moderately hard. Here is a water quality report from EBMUD that shows water characteristics in various areas that they serve. What area applies to you?
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=756362&stc=1&d=1494796800

As you can see the amount of Ca and Mg varies greatly based upon your area in the East Bay. Just an FYI the 1/2 teaspoon of GH Booster that you are using on your 22L and 60P are only raising the dGH by about 1/2 degree (0.5 dGH) which probably is not sufficient if you are in an area with the softer water.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Matt (@talontsiawd)
> 
> Assuming your water comes from the East Bay Municipal Utility District (EBMUD) your water could be very soft to moderately hard. Here is a water quality report from EBMUD that shows water characteristics in various areas that they serve. What area applies to you?
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=756362&stc=1&d=1494796800
> ...


I am probably about equal distance from Orinda and San Leandro but I am not familiar with where "Upper San Leandro" is, but I am guessing it would be north, which may be closer. I actually don't have a water bill as my HOA covers water as we don't have individual meters on our units. I believe I heard on the news that Oakland was getting it's water from a different source than East Bay MUD for some period of time. I only recall that as I catch the local news for the weather so often, I don't get anything from the water district myself so I cannot verify this. I will say that the high tech tank that had similar problems was in Lafayette, and I could not get any color out many types of plants until I started using a GH booster though. This was like almost 10 years ago so I don't know how much water parameters may change in that time. 

I wanted to take some pictures but I did a larger water change, around 80%, and the leaf curl is not apparent this morning. I did not add ferts until I find my smaller spoon. I did get crazy false pearling so it was well overdo, I have never seen that many bubbles after a water change in a tank that doesn't pearl regularly.

I did get this one picture that shows where a stem separated on what I believe is Rotala sp. 'Vietnam'. It's hard to tell in the picture (iPhone) but there is no damage to the leaves on bottom, or the bottom part of the plant, just a black area where the stem separated. On most small leaved plants, it looks black, but on some broader leaved hygrophila, it looks more typical of melting where it is sort of white at first, then grey, then gone.


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

Disintegration at lower areas while new growth is perfectly healthy often hints at substrate problems... Dosing-wise, EI is not the only approach, even though it is popular, can easily try other approaches, especially if you're looking for slower growth rates...


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Xiaozhuang said:


> Disintegration at lower areas while new growth is perfectly healthy often hints at substrate problems... Dosing-wise, EI is not the only approach, even though it is popular, can easily try other approaches, especially if you're looking for slower growth rates...


This is not happening at the substrate, the lowest it has happened is about 3-4 inches above. It's not a chronic problem, but it mostly happens about halfway up the tank. The only thing that seems to be consistent is the plant is seemingly healthy both below and above where it separated, and both plants continue to grow fine after. I only state this because initially I was concerned about reusing my AS that is about 3 years old when I moved this tank (wasn't a total tear down) but I haven't seen what you described.

As for dosing, the main reason I do EI is it's simple, but I am also finding that as I get older, it's harder for me to keep up with a 50% water change. Plus, moving from a single family home to a condo, it's also harder for me to get rid of that water. 7 or so gallons was nothing for my garden in Concord, it is hard to use it all with the potted plants I have here. So I may consider another way, once I feel this is under control. 

As I said above, Chemistry isn't really my thing so the easier, the better, but that may just mean I have to read up. I always justify that my best tanks were EI, but so were my worst, so I guess it's hard to say how well it has worked for me.


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## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

I saw that issue when the stems simply did not have enough light. I had rotala macrandra under 50-65 PAR and it blackened and died. I now have it in near 100, and it grows like a weed.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

sohankpatel said:


> I saw that issue when the stems simply did not have enough light. I had rotala macrandra under 50-65 PAR and it blackened and died. I now have it in near 100, and it grows like a weed.


My Macrandra probably could use a bunch more light but it's not doing bad. It was emmersed grown and a relatively new addition to the tank but where it has transitioned, it's not doing poorly at all, just not as red or perfect leaves as it could. 


One thing that came up earlier, where Roy had a quote about, here are some pictures. In the first, you can see that the Macrandra that has transitioned is definitely red. 

Then in the second picture, what I be leave to be R. HRA shows almost no color, but should be a very red plant. You can see that their is a seperation of the plant between nodes, but the stem didn't totally separate, a bit of the stem is holding on (for now).

Then what I recall being R. indica/rotundiifolia has not even the slightest bit of pink, much less deeper coloration. It also looks to me like the description of "the leaf tips may be "gelatinous" and stuck together inhibiting leaf unfolding". 

I wonder if what is going on fits the description in Roy's first post.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

talontsiawd said:


> I am probably about equal distance from Orinda and San Leandro but I am not familiar with where "Upper San Leandro" is, but I am guessing it would be north, which may be closer. I actually don't have a water bill as my HOA covers water as we don't have individual meters on our units. I believe I heard on the news that Oakland was getting it's water from a different source than East Bay MUD for some period of time. I only recall that as I catch the local news for the weather so often, I don't get anything from the water district myself so I cannot verify this. I will say that the high tech tank that had similar problems was in Lafayette, and I could not get any color out many types of plants until I started using a GH booster though. This was like almost 10 years ago so I don't know how much water parameters may change in that time.
> 
> I wanted to take some pictures but I did a larger water change, around 80%, and the leaf curl is not apparent this morning. I did not add ferts until I find my smaller spoon. I did get crazy false pearling so it was well overdo, I have never seen that many bubbles after a water change in a tank that doesn't pearl regularly.
> 
> I did get this one picture that shows where a stem separated on what I believe is Rotala sp. 'Vietnam'. It's hard to tell in the picture (iPhone) but there is no damage to the leaves on bottom, or the bottom part of the plant, just a black area where the stem separated. On most small leaved plants, it looks black, but on some broader leaved hygrophila, it looks more typical of melting where it is sort of white at first, then grey, then gone.


Hi Matt,

Checking EBMUD you are 1/2 between a moderate hard and a soft area in the water district; I think the only way you will know what you are dealing with is picking up a test kit - I recommend the API KH/GH test kit, that way you can check both your carbonate hardness and general hardness.

I noticed in the last pictures that you posted that the broader leaf foreground stem in the first picture (R. indica/rotundiifolia?) seems to show two symptoms, 1) the newer leaves do seem the show the "_"gelatinous" and stuck together inhibiting leaf unfolding_" characteristic of a calcium (Ca) deficiency descibed above but the lower leaves on the same stem seem to show a downward curling along the leaf margins which would indicate a magnesium deficiency as well. It is not uncommon in soft water to have both deficiencies show up.


> Chlorosis along leaf margins extending between veins produces a "Christmas tree" pattern. Veins normal green. Leaf margins may curl downward or upward with puckering effect. Necrosis may suddenly occur between veins. Potassium or calcium excess can inhibit uptake of magnesium...*magnesium deficiency*


I would invest in a test kit and if you do have softer water add sufficient Equilibrium to bring up the hardness of your tank(s) by 2.0 dGH (about 2 teaspoons in a 20 gallon) per water change. Then observe the new growth of your plants, if the symptoms go away great - if the plant improves but not totally then increase the hardness a little more and observe. Let us know how it works out.

BTW, red coloration if the result of many factors including light intensity, iron levels, and nitrogen levels - *here is a video* that may help you determine what you may to to address to improve color intensity.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Matt,
> 
> Checking EBMUD you are 1/2 between a moderate hard and a soft area in the water district; I think the only way you will know what you are dealing with is picking up a test kit - I recommend the API KH/GH test kit, that way you can check both your carbonate hardness and general hardness.
> 
> ...


Roy, your thoughts are the same as mine, I just don't have the knowledge. I will take your advice on the GH booster, and get the test kits when I have some time to run out to the aquarium shop. I have been doing a lot of low tech tanks so I haven't really had to worry about water conditions for a few years. With the constant moving around, it seems like once I figure it out, I am somewhere new haha. Hoping to be here for awhile though. 

I will check the video when I have a chance as well.

Thanks so much and I will report back as things (hopefully) change.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

OK, I think we are on to something here. I added two teaspoons of GH booster. I still have some curl in the leaves but it seems better. It's only been less than 24 hours. However, I am now seeing color, pretty much ASAP. 

The first pic is from yesterday, the second pic is the same plant, just further down. I have another unknown Rotala species that did the same. Then you can see curling in the last picture. Obviously I have a bit of algae but it looks worse in the pictures than in person, but something obviously changed with the added GH booster.


Sorry the pics are not the best.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Gh booster is your friend. I originally was having a similar issue and the gh booster helped clear up the issues for me. I was getting curling of leaves. I the found out my water had very low ca and mg levels. Now on water change day I add enough to raise my GH 2 and that does the trick. Plants much happier. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So, an update. I on my last water change, I added 3 teaspoons of Seachem Equilibrium. My plants maintained the color that came after starting this, and the leaf curl stopped. I have done two large water changes since I started this thread (about 80%), just to clear out any high level of ferts from lack of water changes, and just to hope to get this tank more balanced.

Yesterday I started getting some brown algae, today I noticed leaf curl and a detached stem. I changed the water on Sunday. Two questions:

1. Is it going to take some time to get this to stop or should every thing correct quickly?

2. Is the GH booster "used up" and I need to add more?

I haven't bought a test kit yet, so maybe that is the next step but the GH Booster seemed to instantly help (along with the water changes). Now I feel I am back where I was. I am just wondering if I should add more as I see the problem and see how things change, but I don't want to go in the wrong direction, having red plants turn green for years, and now seeing color, I was just so happy for the change and want to make sure I am going in the right direction. I would have never thought this would help so I really trust the advice here, just wondering where to go if I see the signs return.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Are you adding the gh booster with each water change?

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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

jellopuddinpop said:


> Are you adding the gh booster with each water change?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Yes, I added it every water change and plan to continue adding it with each water change.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Huh...

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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Adding gh booster if needed is recommend after each water change. Figure the amount you need. 


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Matt,

Thanks for the update; glad you are getting positive results. The brown algae is diatoms, it may disappear by itself in a few weeks or you can add an Otocinclus or two to eat the diatoms. 

1) There may be some stems that were weakened prior to you starting dosing the increased GH Booster but that stems detaching should diminish over time assuming we are one the right track.

2) It is possible that the plants have utilized the GH Booster (Ca, Mg, K) that you added, watch the next set of leaves and see if they have the 'curl ' as well; if so try adding a little more.

Yes, I would get a GH test kit and test both your tap water (which may change with the seasons) and your tank dGH. You will likely find a dGH level that the majority of your plants like (each species is a little different) and then you know what level to adjust the hardness to after doing a water change. You are correct, you don't want to add more GH Booster than the plants require.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Matt,
> 
> Thanks for the update; glad you are getting positive results. The brown algae is diatoms, it may disappear by itself in a few weeks or you can add an Otocinclus or two to eat the diatoms.
> 
> ...


First, I really want to truly thank you for figuring out the problem. I have been struggling to get color out of my plants forever, and just seeing my plants turn back to the color they should be has been the most rewarding thing. It's not just this tank, it's been many years, but I have moved so much in the last 8 years that I never considered this. I really got into low tech because I simply did not have the problem, which makes sense because I didn't does much of anything as it wasn't needed.

As for the diatoms, I am not concerned about them, it is more that they showed up yesterday, and then today, curled leaves and lack of color. Just don't know if it's any indicator of the deficiency that may have come back, or just coincidental. 

I will add a bit more and get a the test kit soon. I have been looking for it but since I have moved to Oakland, all the chain stores have less stuff, and we have these small LFS that don't carry much. I am sure I can find it in Albany but it is one of the worst cities in the Bay to get to and from because it's commute traffic both ways, and one of the worst in the Bay. It's hard to have the patience sometimes (glad I don't work out that way anymore). 

But seriously, thank you so much. I almost gave up on high tech and a few teaspoons of something I already had just really was a game changer. I truly appreciate it.


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