# Native Planted biotope thread (Houston, Texas)



## mnemenoi (May 28, 2012)

I was recently asked to assist (setup and consult) a local nature center nearby in setting up a locally collected biotope type tank and wanted to bounce some ideas for what I believe I have to work with. The center stated it was a 20 gallon tank (unsure if it is a 20H or 20L) and that no one at the center had much experiance with aquariums. I was happy to assist as I know there are quite a lot of local schools that use the faciluty heavily for outings and such. I have some ideas and would be interested to hear opinions either way...

Substrate - Eco-Complete (I have a ton that is sitting dry and I could use) or perhaps collected sand from a nearby stream. I even thought about topping the eco-complete with it, but think it will eventually make a mixed up mess)

Lighting - I doubt they have anything that is very decent, so I'll likely just buy/donate a dual T5 fixture with 10,000K bulbs. 

Filtration - Eheim 2211 with Purigen to control the tannins

Plants (Spring, Tx.) - Locally collected Sag, Floaters of some sort (look like red root, but local), Fissidens (not local per se, but found in Texas), Riccia, and anything else that I spot locally.

Hardscape - Locally collected dried oak and hardwoods branches that might work similar to Manzanita. I might use either Oak leaves or crush up some IAL for some substrate effect.

Livestock - Gammarus, Ghost Shrimp (Paleomontes sp.), Golden Topminnow ( Fundulus chrysotus) 1M/2F, Possibly a Banded pygmy perch (unsure about adding it as they are difficult to feed), Ramshorn snails (if they get too far out of control I can add some assassins and just remove them at a later time), Tadpole Madtom (if I can find one)

Lighting schedule of 8-10 hours daily on a timer, for ease of control

Dosing - No CO2, so I will recommend Excel dosing, with a compliment of Seachem Flourish and Iron. With either substrate I'll start with root tabs and maintain a 6 month schedule for maintanance.

Some issues I would appreciate feedback on

-I tried working other options over in my head, but can not seem to find any other loacally viable species in a tank that small. 
-I think the plants should work with a dual T5 light and dosing, but minimal care is to be expected
-Is a tank like this doable with me only being able to do care every 2 weeks?

Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated and once I have a plan and get approval I will take some pics as the tank gets built.


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## steven p (Jun 22, 2012)

Dual t5 on a 20 might push the lighting a bit, don't quote me.. especially since you'll only be around to manage it ever few weeks.

I'd consider dirting the tank, skip having other people dose. That's asking for trouble.


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## mnemenoi (May 28, 2012)

I imagine the only dosing would be a daily regimen of Excel for algal control (lacking the ability to use otos, SAE, nerites, and RCS is a bit tougher then a planted tank, lol)

I have never had much success with using dirt in my tanks, though have read about it being done successfully. I figured the Eco-complete would work well as a stable inert substrate that is low mess.

Yeah, I do imagine lighting will be a real issue. I'll have to pack the tank from the start and really control the photoperiod to keep it under control. I imagine breaking it into 2-4hour periods initially and elongate the period as the tank settles in. I think using the riccia and floaters will assist me in diffusing and absorbing the lighting initially until the tank is a bit more settled. I just hate seeing T8's go on the tank as they are just tough to have any decent greens with. I suppose I could try out some LED options...


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## steven p (Jun 22, 2012)

I never have problems with t8 or 12 bulbs, its all about the spectrum. Sylvania brand bulbs are cheap and work!

I had a tank running for many weeks without any non-invert algae control. I had trumpet snails for clean up, added a baby bristlenose for a week and moved it out. The tank is still rather spotless.

A healthy and proper plant selection will fight off most algaes. Look for some stems that will emerge, along with your floaters.


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## mnemenoi (May 28, 2012)

Right on! I'll keep my eyes peeled for some when I start collecting. I suppose I could always use some hornwort as its a US native in the very least. Thanks for the ideas


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## steven p (Jun 22, 2012)

mnemenoi said:


> Right on! I'll keep my eyes peeled for some when I start collecting. I suppose I could always use some hornwort as its a US native in the very least. Thanks for the ideas


+1 hornwort is quick growing, undemanding and capable of extracting carbon from kh. A perfect plant for a new tank.


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## mnemenoi (May 28, 2012)

I use some T8's on my Tanganyikan & Sulawesi biotope tanks, but with the Sag I would be worried they would not like such low wattage. I think the T5's would help make everything a bit more 'visible' to the visitors. If it gets too crazy I can always swap the fixture for a T8. I run a low tech 10 gallon planted with 2 - 36 watt PC 10,000K bulbs and it does fine with Excel dosing, floaters, and 10 hour broken photo periods.


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## mistahoo (Apr 25, 2012)

It's doable. I neglected my 5gal for about a month. Shrimps were breeding and plants were going wild.

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## mnemenoi (May 28, 2012)

Thanks Mistahoo! Figured this was best posted in a few different forums then we usually haunt, lol. Now if I spot you on the NANFA forum I'll be truly surprised. I have tried Sag a few times previously and it always failed under less then optimal light.


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## mistahoo (Apr 25, 2012)

Lol I'm on Nano-reef, Marsh, HFB, TPT, MFK, and a few others. I've just been on TPT and HFB lately, but I'm starting to like the other forums over HFB because of all the drama and the infractions being handed out every other minute. I've never seen such a forum that does that. But nevertheless, it's still a great resource despite all that's been going on lately.

Anyways, back on topic. I've never tried sag, but I've tried dwarf sag. Too bad it was shredded. I'm attempting dwarf sag again in my 210g. It helps to have small fish that will feed on the infusoria on the plants especially since you will only be able to check it every 2 weeks. That's how I got by with neglecting the tank. Bushy plants, floaters, mosses, hornwort all seem to host the most infusoria. I actually collected some Hornwort today out by Cypress Creek. It was hiding in some cracks. Also found some clams! I'll check out some local plants/fish/shrimp and report back what I like or find interesting.


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## mnemenoi (May 28, 2012)

Glad to hear you found some locally, it'll be a far better sale when I pitch the tank ideas then a US native... I figure I'll look over the spots we collect at in a few weeks and see what I can, but I've been collecting at those spots for a few years and doubt anything 'new' has shown up. I'd like to stick with stuff found in the area (maybe 20 miles) and showcase just what cool stuff lives around us. With a decent set up it should go well and might spark some kids into trying out a tank at home or might even get the 'biologists' that operate the Nature Center into fishkeeping and planted tanks. the place is only a few blocks from my house, so swinging over during my two weeks in will be a breeze, but its the two weeks I am offshore I am worried about... Theoretically these folks should understand dosing, light schedules, and feedings


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## mistahoo (Apr 25, 2012)

Vallisneria Americana, Pennywort, or Cabomba?

It's hard looking through lists and lists of plants/fish without pictures. Here's a *plant list* and an *animal list* of Texas local stuff. Not quite sure if it's Houston local.

Another *plant list* with pictures! *Fish list* of Texas natives with black and white pictures. *Fish checklist* of Texas natives.


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## mistahoo (Apr 25, 2012)

mnemenoi said:


> Glad to hear you found some locally, it'll be a far better sale when I pitch the tank ideas then a US native... I figure I'll look over the spots we collect at in a few weeks and see what I can, but I've been collecting at those spots for a few years and doubt anything 'new' has shown up. I'd like to stick with stuff found in the area (maybe 20 miles) and showcase just what cool stuff lives around us. With a decent set up it should go well and might spark some kids into trying out a tank at home or might even get the 'biologists' that operate the Nature Center into fishkeeping and planted tanks. the place is only a few blocks from my house, so swinging over during my two weeks in will be a breeze, but its the two weeks I am offshore I am worried about... *Theoretically* these folks should understand dosing, light schedules, and feedings


LOL theoretically! I tend to not trust anyone with dosing, but I'd like to think if they're working a nature center that they can handle dosing. Maybe get an eye dropper or plastic syringe to make it easier for them to be accurate? I generally use an eye dropper for dosing.

It's great that you're doing this. If I can help, let me know and I can swing by when I manage to find the time to. I'm sure it'll influence them if it's done well!


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## mnemenoi (May 28, 2012)

I think we have a bunch of droppers Sasha acquired for dosing that are laying around somewhere in the house and thought they would work. Yeah, looking over lists and trying to determine what I actually collect is tough, lol. I'll be leading the GHAC collection trip in a few weeks, so I can keep my eyes peeled for some plants and viable options. 

Thanks for the kind words, I think it'll be fun and a great chance to volunteer and do a challenging tank that will be enjoyed by a lot of people. I'll eventually post up some stuff on the HFB forum and maybe see about getting GHAC to sponser the tank. I don't mind throwing down on a decent light and filter and I think it would be nice to see the club do something like this that we all could be proud of.


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## mistahoo (Apr 25, 2012)

Some fish I found to be interesting. Big Bend Gambusia (fancy lookin mosquito fish!), Fundulus chrysotus, Western Starhead Topminnow, Fundulus Notatus, Scaly Sand Darter, and Mud Darter. Pygmy Banded Sunfish is a cool one too.


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## mnemenoi (May 28, 2012)

I have caught Fundulus Chrysotus (what I planned for the main attraction for the tank), Fundulus Notatus, Scaly Sand Darter, and Pygmy Banded sunfsh all at the local spots we will be collecting at. The Notatus are just BIG (like 3-4"), the scaly sand darters would do well in a swift water tank as they love to dart into and out of the sand, and the Pygmy perch are way cool, but sooo tough to feed. I only managed to keep mine alive in a cherry breeding tank and they never took any food (shrimplets galore) so I imagine they would starve in that tank unless the Gammarus start reproducing like mad. They are so small they would just hide all the time and the kids would probably prefer to see something with a bit more Pizazz. Thinking about some Texas shiners (Notropis Amabilis) though, as I caught some in a nearby creek...


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## mistahoo (Apr 25, 2012)

I think Fundulus Chrysotus as the main attraction would be great! 

It seems like the hornwort I collected and the hornwort I got from you look entirely different in shape. The one I collected looks like the one in this *link*. The one I got from you looks more spread apart? It's not clumped up together like the one in the link.


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## mnemenoi (May 28, 2012)

Yeah, it does sooo much better under real sun and light. I've never been able to get it like that in my tanks, it just starts getting leggy and does not have the same effect. Maybe a higher wattage light and longer photoperiod? I really like the look of the Golden Topminnow and they adapt well to aquarium life, even taking regular flake and pellets. They are all over in a small creek I know of and catching 20-30 adults is not hard so we should be able to sex them prior to introduction in the tank and can always get more if anything unfortunate happens. I imagine their spawning colors would look terrific!


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## mistahoo (Apr 25, 2012)

I love the colors on those topminnows! Spawning colors would just be amazing and could easily become the main attraction over Fundulus Chrysotus. 

All this talk about natives makes me want to get a native tank started with native plants and small fish. Maybe even some native substrate lol.


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## bpb (Mar 8, 2011)

Awesome thread. I spent my entire childhood trouncing around spring creek. Good times.


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## mistahoo (Apr 25, 2012)

Lol I've spent most of my childhood around fish, saltwater fishing, and catching random stuff in the bayou by my house. There used to be some really cool and colorful species you could find there before... Well when people happened lol. Polluting killed or chased off all the cool stuff. Now all we seem to have is non native gambusia, red ear sliders, crawfish, and tadpoles.

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## mnemenoi (May 28, 2012)

+1 to trouncing around in the woods while I was a kid. My time was on Caney Creek and Peach Creek. Glad you like the thread and I figured it might be a nice thread to collect some information on a native planted tank for anyone in our area or elsewhere. 

I am seriously considering doing a native sand substrate collected from the creek itself. Our Fahaka tank is densely planted and uses PFS for substrate, so I think its doable with root tabs and water change dosing.


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## Saxtonhill (Dec 28, 2012)

Fascinating idea and look forward to seeing how things progress. Subscribed


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

mnemenoi said:


> I am seriously considering doing a native sand substrate collected from the creek itself. Our Fahaka tank is densely planted and uses PFS for substrate, so I think its doable with root tabs and water change dosing.


Have you considered doing the Walstad method, maybe using potting soil under the collected sand in lieu of dosing? It would work well, imho with small monthly water changes and low-light plants. Keeps the algae in check too.

Good luck with the setup whichever direction you choose... it's a great idea!


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## mnemenoi (May 28, 2012)

Thanks Saxtonhill!

Bluestems, I have attempted a few Walstad type setups. I have to be honest though, they have always been more trouble then I like. I usually deter anyone from topping substrate as it can become a mess very quickly. With a 20 gallon the 2 bottles of Seachem will last for quite awhile and will allow me to move/attempt different arangements without the tank become a cloudy mess. I had even considered topping eco-complete with the sand, but it will eventually get mixed up and impossible to keep stratisfied. Thanks for the ideas and I am looking forward to doing some legwork shortle to get this up and running!


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

mnemenoi said:


> Thanks Saxtonhill!
> 
> Bluestems, I have attempted a few Walstad type setups. I have to be honest though, they have always been more trouble then I like. I usually deter anyone from topping substrate as it can become a mess very quickly. With a 20 gallon the 2 bottles of Seachem will last for quite awhile and will allow me to move/attempt different arangements without the tank become a cloudy mess. I had even considered topping eco-complete with the sand, but it will eventually get mixed up and impossible to keep stratisfied. Thanks for the ideas and I am looking forward to doing some legwork shortle to get this up and running!


I've used the method for several tanks, including a 10g and a 75g elementary school tanks and it is more challenging to rearrange things. It's best to plan it out and let it be. I was able to move some things around by carefully and slowly pulling out the plantings, but there was always a small cloud of substrate that would come through but eventually settled and was fine. Honestly, the method works better the more you just leave it alone.  

Good luck with your setup!


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## mistahoo (Apr 25, 2012)

I don't know if this will work or even help, but the thought just popped in my head. If you were to cap off the eco complete with sand, you can use the cross stitching grid with the smaller size (I think it was 5?) and lay it on top of the soil and then cap it off? In my mind it sounds like it'll keep the two mostly separate and I haven't read (haven't looked it up yet lol) or heard anyone of even attempting this.

But I'm with you. I don't like capping off anything because I always move around my plants. As they grow, I tend to find visually "better" spots for them. I don't know of the Walstad method, but I've heard of it quite a number of times recently. I've only tried the "nooby" method (lmao) and DSM right now.

What's the nature center called? I don't travel up north side that often (at least not 45 area).


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## mnemenoi (May 28, 2012)

Hmmm, I have used that grid stuff for moss walls and have 5 or 6 sheets laying around though not sure if the better half has anything planned for it, lol. I suppose that could work, I use a similar technique in the dart frog vivariums except using window screen instead. 

I'm always up for trying new ideas, especially in my own tanks. There always seems to be some new idea that I'm interested in trying out... I have been eyeballing those Bunocephalus on the B/S/T forum and interested in how workable they might be in my Sulawesi biotope once we upgrade it. Those Sulawesi plants seem hard to come by... might have to get Homeless Aquatics on that when he orders more shrimp

Here is the website for the place, its just around the corner from my place.


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## pedropete (Feb 27, 2012)

is the tank going to be at jesse jones park? i'm a teacher, and we do service learning projects there. i've taken kids kayaking up and down spring creek there, too.  cool tank idea!


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## mnemenoi (May 28, 2012)

It will actually be at the Spring Creek Greenway, which is over on Riley Fuzzel near Rayford (where it passes over Spring Creek). I have been over to Jesse Jones and love the plant sales at Mercer Arboritum. Thanks for enjoying the tank idea and I'll let everyone know how it goes, I'll be sure and take a lot of pics for certain


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## mistahoo (Apr 25, 2012)

Link doesn't work for me and you guys sure have some nice stuff up north. Where I live has nothing of the like. Just ghetto little hoodrats.

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## mnemenoi (May 28, 2012)

here is the website, not sure what is up with the link...
www.springcreekgreenway.org


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

mistahoo said:


> I don't know of the Walstad method, but I've heard of it quite a number of times recently. I've only tried the "nooby" method (lmao) and DSM right now.


Not to derail the thread, Diana Walstad is a microbiologist who wrote a book called Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, that looked at the science behind using soil with a sand cap, low lighted, planted aquarium. She began testing using soil in aquariums because she noted most lake and streams have soil substrates. 

This was before ADA aquasoil, or any of the new aquarium soil substrates that are intended to hold ferts. According to Walstad, the soil is the catalyst for breaking down excess food and fish waste into nutrients for the plants. 

It's not a perfect system, but it did work really for me and if you're looking at very low maintenance (I did 20% water changes maybe once a month, and kept the tanks topped off... that's it) then I still recommend it. 

But, the downside is that with any capped system, you wouldn't want to move plants around too often after it's planted. 

Ok, sorry for the diversion... back on topic. 

I'm looking forward to this tank too! :smile:


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## mnemenoi (May 28, 2012)

Thanks for explaining Bluestems, Glad to have the explaination in this thread should anyone else be unaware of the Walstad method and its origins. I really enjoy this forum becuase of the knowledgeable members, the wealth of real life experiance is invaluable. Nearly everything has been attempted at one time or another, I find it utterly fascinating that even so every tank is different. Feel free to ask/answer/clarify questions anytime and I certainly appreciate it!


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## mistahoo (Apr 25, 2012)

Seems like this thread already has a large pool of information on Houston/Texas Natives. Thanks Bluestems for that explanation. Makes much more sense now. I'm sure the others who come to visit this thread and reading about it will also know. I, myself, am still in the learning game. I've only started planted tanks since September 2012 and fish back in April 2012.

If you want, I could meet up with you every now and then to go collecting for this tank? I'm sure with multiple trips and more than one person, we could easily set up this tank in no time.


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## mnemenoi (May 28, 2012)

That sounds great Mistahoo! My general timeline is return from offshore on the 14th, ready for the GHAC meeting and collection trip on the 16th. I'll probably call and set up an appointment with the supervisor on Monday/Tuesday and we shall see what happens at that point onward. I'll bring up the tank at the GHAC meeting and see if anyone has anything to donate and once it gets firmed up, will order whatever is needed beyond what we currently have (which is a decent amount of hoarding, lol). The 2 largest issues are the light (the guy I order from is local and a dual T5 with 10,000K bulbs is only $50) and the filter (Have a few AC's sitting around we could use temporarily until I can get an Eheim 2211 or 2213) otherwise we could start it in no time. Even just doing a setup, filter, hardscape, and allowing it to begin cycling could be done during this 2 weeks in hopefully.


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## mistahoo (Apr 25, 2012)

I've got a 2213 I can donate. Full of media (plastic pot scrubbers) and already cycled. Just missing quick disconnects and lily pipes.

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## mistahoo (Apr 25, 2012)

I love LEDs and I'm sure the kids would love the shimmer lol. Might be farfetched but maybe we could get an LED fixture on it?

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## mnemenoi (May 28, 2012)

LED fixtures are not that costly, just have never used them in a planted tank before. I think it would all be about preference at that point and I like the look better as well. Awesome on the 2213, I think we have some extra stuff from a broken Pro II we might be able to scavenge.


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## mistahoo (Apr 25, 2012)

I've been eyeing the finnex fixtures lately. They have a nice design. Super thin and sleek. 

Maybe order some cheap lily pipes to give the tank a nice look? It just needs one set of quick disconnects.

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## mnemenoi (May 28, 2012)

Indeed, I think lily pipes are more pimpin then even my tanks, lol. Would a Finnex be enough wattage/PAR for the sag? I think we could do low light otherwise, it is about the only snag in the lighting I can see. I'd ditch them out of the set up, but they are everywhere locally and would be a great addition...


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## mistahoo (Apr 25, 2012)

mnemenoi said:


> Indeed, I think lily pipes are more pimpin then even my tanks, lol. Would a Finnex be enough wattage/PAR for the sag? I think we could do low light otherwise, it is about the only snag in the lighting I can see. I'd ditch them out of the set up, but they are everywhere locally and would be a great addition...


I'm not quite sure if the par is enough. They sell a variety of fixtures. I haven't gotten a chance to look up which would best suit the tank. Sag is great and would look nice in the setup.

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## mistahoo (Apr 25, 2012)

So I took a quick look at the Finnex Ray 2. For a 24" it's about 50 mmol per square inch of PAR if you sit it on the tank. For a 36" it's about 90 mmol per square inch of PAR sitting on the tank. I've already factored in the depth of each tank (20H and 20L) into the PAR ratings. I have no clue what is considered low/med/high when it comes to PAR. I found this *thread* that's just as confusing. Along with this *thread*. The members in the first thread are saying 35-50 is medium, but the second thread says otherwise. If you end up with a 20L that would be awesome (I love those dimensions much better)!


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## polukoff (Oct 12, 2011)

I don't have any natural Biotopes, but I collected over 5 species of native plants today alone! I have around 15 species so far I have collected from the creeks around Austin, and the list keeps growing.


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## mistahoo (Apr 25, 2012)

Awesome! What did you collect? I haven't really collected plants. Hornwort was the only thing and I was lucky to find it as it was wedged in a deep crack.

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## mnemenoi (May 28, 2012)

My son lives in San Marcos and I have collected up there. A terrific selection of invasives and a few natives.


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