# Why's Aqua Soil melting everything?



## Mr. Fish (Apr 24, 2012)

This Aqua Soil stuff is either over hyped or i'm doing something wrong 

I've never ran into so many problems in one tank intill I started using this substrate, so if someone can help me figure out whats going on before my frustration level rises anymore.

*Heres my specs:*

*Tank:* 15 gal rimless
*Substrate:* Aqua Soil Amazonia new mixed with a little old
*Lighting:* USA Power compact with dimming fan (1x40w dual daylight PC and 1x36 ADA 8,000k PC bulb)
*Timer:* 6 hours
*Co2:* Presurized aquatek regulator/ glass diffuser
*Nutrients:* Not dosing yet

First issue, every plant I put in this tank seems to melt.



Theres other plants I dont have pics of that I take out of my other tank that look great full of colors, as soon as I place in this tank leaves start melting??

2nd issue: Green Dust algae like crazy plus some sort fuzzy thread stuff that doesent look like the normal stuff i've seen





The HC starts showing signs of new growth but then the fuzzy ish will come and kill it all off.. Stem plants will grow a little then melt off.

Now I did some research and from what I read Aqua soil has a routine of water changes you need to go thru. Before I started ammonia was high, water changed out every other day now and I'm down to just above zero yet plants still melting. Co2 indicator reads greenish yellow so the only thing I can think of is the lighting is too bright, the 8,000k ada bulb should be swapped out for another dual bulb or the Aqua soil is just overhyped??

You tell me...


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Many of the ADA product line will release ammonia when it is first submerged. 
Test your ammonia levels, and be ready to do a lot of water changes.


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## SJInverts (Apr 6, 2009)

I think your plants may be melting due to extreme changes in water parameters and/or lighting.

The ADA soil softens the water and buffers the PH below 7.0. Plus, if your lighting is substantially different that can adversely affect plants. However, most plants will bounce back after the initial melting period.


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## Mr. Fish (Apr 24, 2012)

Diana said:


> Many of the ADA product line will release ammonia when it is first submerged.
> Test your ammonia levels, and be ready to do a lot of water changes.


Diana not sure if you caught this but please read the end my OP. 

*"Now I did some research and from what I read Aqua soil has a routine of water changes you need to go thru. Before I started ammonia was high, water changed out every other day now and I'm down to just above zero yet plants still melting."*



SJInverts said:


> I think your plants may be melting due to extreme changes in water parameters and/or lighting.
> 
> The ADA soil softens the water and buffers the PH below 7.0. Plus, if your lighting is substantially different that can adversely affect plants. However, most plants will bounce back after the initial melting period.


This is true, but that doesn't explain the fuzzy algae thats killing my HC.

Can you be more specific on Lighting being substantially different?


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Mr. Fish said:


> *Nutrients:* Not dosing yet


This is a big problem with your setup. You have bright light, CO2, but no nutrients. You need to feed the plants.

One of the other problems you may be facing is that the plants in the tank are not very healthy from what they have already endured. They may be spending their last gasp of energy trying to repair all their damaged cells, leaving no energy for new growth. Add to that the lack of nutrients, and you have a very off-balance tank.

First thing I'd do is clean up as much of the sick plant growth as possible, leaving only healthy plant material. If that means you lose some plants, than that may have to happen (better to lose some now than to lose them all in the long run).

Clean up as much of the algae as possible. Decrease your lighting as you have already planned.

Immediately start dosing EI ferts (not the weak Seachem stuff). Start with at least a 50% water change and then keep up with the ferts and weekly water change.

Plant new plants to increase the plant mass. It doesn't matter if you like them or if you'll keep them. You simply need fast growing plants in the tank. This will help your algae problem. Some good choices are hygrophilia, ludwigia, anacharis, hornwort, bacopa, and other plants along these lines. You want weeds. They'll help get your tank stabilized, making it easier for your desired plants to recover and grow. As your desired plants take over, you can get rid of the weedy plants.


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## Mr. Fish (Apr 24, 2012)

Well for my arguments sake, the reason I haven't dosed EI yet is because the tanks a new setup.. I figured since "Aqua Soil" is so packed with nutrients it should carry over for a few weeks while plant mass kicks in, not algae. Except I'm getting the complete opposite and on top plant meltage. So now I'm put in a position if I do dose EI, algae could multiply.

As far as adding a bunch of plants I did.. that's why I'm here for advice. Exact thoughts as you, add a bunch of fast growing plants and do a ton of water changes to bring down ammonia levels.. Well, plants go in - Melt.. Water change..water change...water change... Ammonia now down to nearly zero.. New plants go in - Melt. 

So i'm wondering if either the lighting level is too bright for this tank or if the ADA bulb with the 8,000k has any effect because i'm not very familiar with its spectrum and personally use to the daylight 6,700k's. I have the other daylight bulb and considering just swapping with. Then picking up another timer and bringing the lights to a sunburst effect.. Should adapt them better IMO

**BTW Plants thowing in are healthy lush plants from my other high tech tank which has similar conditions just minus the Aqua Soil.*


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## Bunbuku (Sep 19, 2010)

I have used AS for 4 yrs with good results. 

Agree with Complexity. At minimum you need to start dosing with micros and K. New AS already has plenty of NH3. 

If you look at the total ADA system, you will see that from the start, they have you add Brighty K and Green Brighty Step 1 (their version of micros). I think the algae is growing because something is out of balance (perhaps the AS may have tipped the balance towards N resulting in limiting amounts of other nutrients). 

PS: I have a 150 watt MH light (8000K ADA bulb) over my 60-P.


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## Mr. Fish (Apr 24, 2012)

Not sure if ottos and amano's eat up that type of algae?


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## Bunbuku (Sep 19, 2010)

ADA will have you add those critters ~ 2 weeks into setup if needed. IME, I found that NH3 was still too high after 2 wks to allow livestock.


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## Mr. Fish (Apr 24, 2012)

Its been about 3 weeks now if i'm not mistaken.. just tested again today and was at about 0.25ppm. Plan on doing another water change tommoro and tossing in a few ottos/amanos to help me keep this algae in check. Then follow up with a dosage of EI

Can anyone help identify the algae from the pic in the OP?? Some fuzz crap I've never came across before that's fo'sure.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Mr. Fish said:


> Well for my arguments sake, the reason I haven't dosed EI yet is because the tanks a new setup.. I figured since "Aqua Soil" is so packed with nutrients it should carry over for a few weeks while plant mass kicks in, not algae. Except I'm getting the complete opposite and on top plant meltage. So now I'm put in a position if I do dose EI, algae could multiply.


Unfortunately, you've based your decision on two misconceptions. First, having AS does not mean you do not need to add ferts to the water column. You still need them. Think of it this way. What if I put in a bunch of ground up root tabs in my substrate. Does that guarantee that I've given my plants all the nutrients they need? Nope. It only means I've given them whatever was in the root tabs I added. Anything missing from those root tabs must be dosed in some other way. So you have to look at what is in AS and what is missing from AS and dose accordingly. AS is not a complete fertilizer substrate. None of them are.

The second misconception is that fertilizers cause algae. It is the _imbalance_ between light, CO2, fertilizers, and plant mass that causes algae. So if you have high amounts of any of those elements, you need equally high amounts of the other elements.

While you may have added lots of plants in the beginning, things weren't balanced so they failed to grow. As you have to cut them back and remove them because of melting, you need to replace them with fresh, healthy plants. If what you had wasn't working, having damaged plants certainly won't work better. But as you get things better balanced, the healthy plants will take off, reducing the problem with algae, and giving the damaged plants the best environment possible to recover and eventually thrive.


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## Mr. Fish (Apr 24, 2012)

So to sum it all up from what I understand you're saying is its not the Aqua soil melting my plants but rather the lack of ferts and the imbalances I have in the tank is what my algae outbreak is from not the lights?


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

Throw some floaters in there until the plants fill in. Problem solved.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Mr. Fish said:


> So to sum it all up from what I understand you're saying is its not the Aqua soil melting my plants but rather the lack of ferts and the imbalances I have in the tank is what my algae outbreak is from not the lights?


The lights are part of the imbalance so I can't say it's not the lights. But in general, yes, that's the basic idea.

The other problem is something you can't really do much about which is that the tank is a new setup. Newly setup tanks seem more prone to plant failures and algae growth than more mature setups. I cannot explain why, but it's something I have noticed with my own tanks and have had others express about their tanks, as well. It's not a matter of cycling the tank or getting things in balance or not having the knowledge or experience with planted tanks. There just seems to be a difference between new setups and mature setups. And the brighter the light, the more pronounced the difference. At 3 weeks, you're right on schedule for everything to go wrong. So don't feel too bad. What you're going through won't continue forever.

The main thing is to get through this phase. To do that, you do need to focus on growing plants which means getting things balanced, reducing light if things are getting too out of control, and making sure the tank has lots of heathy plants to keep pushing it through this.

Once you get things in balance, then you can take steps to kill the existing algae. Doing it now would be futile since the underlying problem causing the algae hasn't been fixed yet.


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## Morgan73 (Jun 3, 2012)

Agree with the "balance" idea. 

Years ago, I had similar misconceptions. Once you understand the EI method, you'll be dosing daily. Giving plants heavy ferts, light, and CO2 guarantees that the plants will be growing "on all 6 cylinders". Algae, then, will not be able to compete with the healthily growing plants. Weekly water changes will remove any excess nutrients from heavy dosing.

Good luck

"Science Rules!".....Bill Nye


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## Mr. Fish (Apr 24, 2012)

Complexity said:


> The lights are part of the imbalance so I can't say it's not the lights. But in general, yes, that's the basic idea.
> 
> The other problem is something you can't really do much about which is that the tank is a new setup. Newly setup tanks seem more prone to plant failures and algae growth than more mature setups. I cannot explain why, but it's something I have noticed with my own tanks and have had others express about their tanks, as well. It's not a matter of cycling the tank or getting things in balance or not having the knowledge or experience with planted tanks. There just seems to be a difference between new setups and mature setups. And the brighter the light, the more pronounced the difference. At 3 weeks, you're right on schedule for everything to go wrong. So don't feel too bad. What you're going through won't continue forever.
> 
> ...


I don't feel bad so don't worry, just a bit frustrated because of all the HC I keep losing. Not a cheap plant to experiment with. I guess this is what i'll do to see if things make a turn around

- Water change tommro, scrape algae and start dosing EI
- Throw in some Ottos/Amanos
- Remove all melted plants and start throwing in a some fresh fast growing plants.
- Switch to the sunburst effect on lighting

*1)* *Would dosing excel hurt or help me in a time like this? *

*2)* *Also do you think i'd benefit more from using two dual day light bulbs or sticking with the 1 dual and 1 ADA 8,000k bulb?*


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

Just reduce the light by 2 hours and do another water change so ther is no ammonia, also try to raise the light higher off the tank.

I personally don't think you need to start EI if you reduce the light but the rest is good info, IMO.


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

I would run the 8K as the main light and not over 8 hours and try a burst for 2 hours or less in the middle of the day.


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## Mr. Fish (Apr 24, 2012)

150EH said:


> Just reduce the light by 2 hours and do another water change so ther is no ammonia, also try to raise the light higher off the tank.
> 
> I personally don't think you need to start EI if you reduce the light but the rest is good info, IMO.


I already reduced from 8 to 6 which to my understanding the least ammount for plant growth. 

I can't raise the light any higher as its on legs not hanging



150EH said:


> I would run the 8K as the main light and not over 8 hours and try a burst for 2 hours or less in the middle of the day.


Why do you recomend the 8k as the main light?

I was thinking something along the lines like this:

(6 Hours Total)
12:00pm-Dual daylight on
1:30pm - ADA 8k light on (Both On)
4:30pm - ADA 8k light turn off
6:00pm - Lights out

or Switch it up

(6 Hours Total)
12:00pm-Dual daylight on
1:30pm - ADA 8k light on (Both On)
*4:30pm - Dual daylight off*
6:00pm - Lights out


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Mr. Fish said:


> I don't feel bad so don't worry, just a bit frustrated because of all the HC I keep losing. Not a cheap plant to experiment with. I guess this is what i'll do to see if things make a turn around
> 
> - Water change tommro, scrape algae and start dosing EI
> - Throw in some Ottos/Amanos
> ...


Sounds like a good plan. Since you're having problems right now, I'd hold off on replacing the HC until the plants start growing well and the algae isn't a problem. That way you don't have to worry about losing expensive plants. Just add cheap weeds to get the tank going and switch to HC once things have improved.

Yes, you can dose Excel while you're doing all this. It will help kill the algae which may help some of the plants. It's okay to dose Excel while injecting CO2. Just stay within the instructed dosage. If you don't have Excel, I wouldn't run out to buy any, but if you have it on hand already, then go ahead and give it a try. At the least, it won't hurt anything, and at the best, it may help. Keep in mind that Excel is not a fertilizer; it is simply a form of carbon.

I'm not real good on lighting questions so I'm not going to give a direct answer to your question. What I will say is that it's best to hold the light in the midrange right now (mid/high range at the most). You _can_ run your lights in the high range, but it just drives everything faster which only compounds the problems. Once your tank is growing plants more successfully, you can then inch your light up to high light levels.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

150EH said:


> I personally don't think you need to start EI if you reduce the light but the rest is good info, IMO.


If he doesn't start EI, he needs to at least dose whatever nutrients are missing or are deficient from AS. Since there's no harm in dosing EI and it's so cheap, I see no reason to _not_ dose EI.


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## Mr. Fish (Apr 24, 2012)

Complexity said:


> Sounds like a good plan. Since you're having problems right now, I'd hold off on replacing the HC until the plants start growing well and the algae isn't a problem. That way you don't have to worry about losing expensive plants. Just add cheap weeds to get the tank going and switch to HC once things have improved.
> 
> Yes, you can dose Excel while you're doing all this. It will help kill the algae which may help some of the plants. It's okay to dose Excel while injecting CO2. Just stay within the instructed dosage. If you don't have Excel, I wouldn't run out to buy any, but if you have it on hand already, then go ahead and give it a try. At the least, it won't hurt anything, and at the best, it may help. Keep in mind that Excel is not a fertilizer; it is simply a form of carbon.


I got a few thick patches of HC in there that got infected with the fuzz but the're starting to show new signs of growth.. should I leave it in to see if it bounces back or just take the loss?

I got a few new patches in there as well I just tossed in since I got a good deal.. real noticeable, the new patches are very bright green and free of algae. Since I got a bottle of excel already i'll just start throwing it in on my micros day


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I'd leave anything that has signs of life left, especially if you're seeing new growth. Remove anything that's turned to mush or has turned transparent (and then only remove the mushy or transparent part, leaving the rest if there's any healthy part still there).

You can use Excel every day if you want. Since it can help kill the algae, it won't hurt to use it. If you get a lot of dead algae all at once, you may see a spike in ammonia so don't let that throw you. You already know how to handle that should it happen.


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## Mr. Fish (Apr 24, 2012)

Ok so a quick update.

Did a 50% change and scraped all algae out then acclimated 5 ottos and 2 amanos. Right away these guys got to work. Also added another timer to implement sunburst effect and planted a bunch of Ludwigia, wisteria, stargrass and Hygro. 

Also started Dosing EI so well see how this turns out, hoping this tank makes a turn around


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

This sounds really good. Let's see how the tank responds to these changes, especially once the plants you just added take root and start growing.

Look for signs that the algae has stopped spreading and for new growth of existing plants. Both of those signs will indicate that the tank is beginning to turn around.


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## tobystanton (Jun 27, 2012)

Your tank is going to have algae problems for the first 60-90 days, there's no way around that. 

Like someone else said, easiest way to fix this would be to throw in a bunch of floaters, Duckweed, Frog Point, Water lettuce, etc.

You should read a book called "The Secret Life of Plants", it explains how plants transform there surrounding into great detail and it will give you a grasp on how delicate the balance in your tank is.


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

HC needs bright light and high C02 unless the water is quite shallow. It also does best under a normal light cycle. 6 hours is not a normal light cycle. The release of ammonia is common with any soil based substrate. If you have no established cycle bacteria, you are bound to have major algae outbreaks until the tank fully cycles. Ammonia would not cause your plants to rot. Stem plants rot when they are not getting enough light or are being chocked out by algae. Increase the light duration to 10 hours a day, raise C02, and use a daily EI fert regime, and you will see algae decline. Your plants will grow faster and feed off the ammonia, lowering the ammonia levels.

In over 15 years I have never found this goofy light staggering schedule to accomplish anything over the long term, (sorry, to me its goofy). Balance out a normal light cycle with nutrients and C02, and your plants will grow like crazy and and make the ammonia disappear.



> ust reduce the light by 2 hours and do another water change so ther is no ammonia, also try to raise the light higher off the tank.


FOURS HOURS A DAY??? Yikes.... Raise it, don't lower it. 10 hours a day with high C02 levels will give you a nice healthy HC ground cover. If you want to go Low, low tech, get rid of the HC.


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## Mr. Fish (Apr 24, 2012)

This is exactly why advice gets so mis-lead all the time. One person says this, the other says that - it just proves that there's more than one way of doing it.

Every time you read up on algae problems whats the first thing they tell you, lower the lighting to 6 hrs. Then someone like Robert whose been doing this for many years comes along and says the complete opposite, which in actuality makes sense, but in the same breath I can understand the 6 hr side too. This has been happening to a lot of my questions lately and honestly I don't know who's advice to take anymore.

There's too many great tanks and experienced hobbyist here to be second guessing all the time.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I can appreciate the confusion with so many different people offering so many different suggestions. What can help clear the air is to have a basic understanding of the concepts behind the suggestions.

The basis behind the reasoning of cutting the light is because light is the main driver of plant growth. Whatever level of lighting you use, you have to match it with equal amounts of CO2, ferts, and plant mass. Since it is most common for people to be lacking in one of those areas, it is most common that people need to lower their lighting. So what happens is people see the advice to cut lighting and repeat it over and over again. Usually, this is good advice (just look through the threads at how many people are getting way too much light when they first start out). However, there comes a point when the suggestion goes too far.

What Robert is suggesting is solid. You'll hear the same from people like Tom Barr. I have also learned the same thing. The #1 most important thing you can do regarding algae problems is to *grow the plants*. What this means is you need to give the plants everything they need to let them grow to their best ability. That's very open-ended and requires a more thorough look at the current situation. Instead of simply regurgitating "cut the lights," actual judgement is being made based on your specific situation with the main goal in mind of growing the plants.

What I understood Robert was saying is that you are attempting to grow a plant that requires a certain level of lighting and you have fallen below that level. If you wish to grow that plant, you have to increase your lighting. If you wish to keep your lighting as low as it is now, then you need to give up on the idea of growing that particular plant. It's your choice of what you want to do.

Personally, when bringing up a high tech tank with high lighting, I prefer to push my tanks through any algae problems without giving up on the lighting as long as (this part is important) I know the lighting is not too high for the setup. Instead of lowering my lighting, I work harder at getting my CO2 and ferts in order while increasing my plant mass (tons of fast growing stems to get the tank going in the beginning). My goal is to get the plants growing. I have discovered an interesting correlation between algae and plant growth. The better the plants are growing, the less algae. The poorer the plants are growing, the more algae. Therefore, part of my algae fighting regimen is a strong effort to get the plants growing as best as I can.

So when confusion between the multitude of advice ensues, look at what's behind the advice. You may find a greater amount of similarity and agreement of the basic concepts between the suggestions. The only thing that differs is how to apply the concepts. Once you understand the concepts, then you can better decide how you want to apply them and begin making judgements for yourself. Sometimes that means lowering the light. Sometimes that means increasing the light. Sometimes that means leaving the light alone and adjusting something else. The more you work with your tank and plants, the more you will figure out what works best for your particular setup.


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