# _Dosing Regimes_



## Wö£fëñxXx

For higher light, Co2 enriched tank's that are moderately 
to heavy planted.

Add o2 to your tank daily, by either air stone or surface
agitation.

*Dry Dosing...* Use measuring spoon's found at 
most department store's in the utensils section, scoop 
appropriate amount and toss in the tank, simple as that!

I use to keep an old travel mug under the tank, and 
keep fertilizers in large spice bottles, scoop appropriate 
amount into cup, dip in tank, stir and serve.
Tsp=Teaspoon

**Dry Dosing Plantex CSM+B...* 
Converting 1 tablespoon to 250ml H20, 
20 ml = 1/4 teaspoon of dry fertilizer. 
There are 12 - 1/4 teaspoons dissolved
250ml/12=20.83ml. 

*20~40gal*
50% H20 change-weekly
1/4 Tsp-KN03 3x a week
1/16 Tsp-KH2P04 3x aweek
1/2 Tsp-GH booster once a week 
5ml or 1/16Tsp-Trace 3x a week
_Optional_
1-2ml-Fe/Iron 3x a week

*"If dosing a 10gal highlight C02 enriched tank, 
divide above regime x2"* 

*40~60gal*
50% H20 change-weekly
1/2 Tsp-KN03 3x a week
1/8 Tsp-KH2P04 3x a week
3/4 Tsp-GH booster once a week
10ml or 1/8Tsp-Trace 3x a week
_Optional_
2-4ml-Fe/Iron 3x a week

*60~80gal*
50% H20 change-weekly
3/4 Tsp-KN03 3x a week
3/16 Tsp-KH2P04 3x a week
1 Tsp-GH booster once a week
15ml 3/16Tsp-Trace 3x a week
_Optional_
4-8ml-Fe/Iron 3x a week

*Mixing Trace Element and Iron,* Plantex CSM+B,
Fe/Iron Chelate 10%- mix 1Tbsp per 250ml water-
one cap full=5ml

*Adding Sodium Bicarb/baking soda:*
One teaspoon baking soda will increase the kH of
50 liters of water approx. 13 gallons by 4 degrees.

*Algae Issue's?*
Increase C02, even if you have to use Flourish Excel, 
and decrease the light, raise it up off the tank, 
burn it less hour's etc, then re-evaluate the C02.

Clean & prune, all the plant's, manually remove as much 
algae as you can, good condition's will slow it's growth, 
even stop growth, you will need to remove the remaining
algae by hand...

*Make sure you're C02 is at optimal condition's.*

*GDA:* Cause-Too much light, reduce intensity

*BBA:* Add more C02/ Reduce light intensity and or duration.

*BGA:* add N03 and 02/oxygen.

*Fish gasping? 02 Issue's?*
Increase surface movement/splash, for night time/lights out, 
decrease for opposite, if having 02 issue's surface 
movement/splash is good.
So a simple lift of the spray bar or lily pipe to break the 
surface will remedy that.

*Good article on Biochemical Oxygen Demand*

*BOD* http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/278839-post41.html

*'Fertilizers for sale'*

http://www.pfertz.com/

http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/

http://www.greenleafaquariums.com/aquarium-fertilizer.html

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This chart is to be used "ASSUMING" proper lighting levels are
being met. Without adequate lighting, this chart can't help you.
Check your bulbs and other threads on lighting to re-assure that
you have a proper light set-up for whatever method of aquatic
gardening you wish to achieve.

The Green represents growth, in group 1 we see that plant growth
is hindered because Micro nutrients aren't being met. Although all
other demands are given in plentiful amounts, growth is stunted by
the lacking nutrient.

Group2 is meant to demonstrate low amounts of nutrient balance =
slow growth. Lighting will drive the plants to soak up nutrients to no
end. They take and take depending on the intensity of light with no
real control. If you limit the amount of nutrients you place inside the
water column and substrate, you limit their growth, no matter how
long you run your lights.

Group 3 represents maximum growth given that all nutrients are in
abundance within a level tolerable to other inhabitants. The EI
method ensures that all nutrients are provided within tolerable
amounts to fauna, as well as a bit excess for flora, all excess is
removed with a water change every week.

Credit to Sarge for graph and text.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An example of dosing 3x a week on my 46g tank,
This is what I do.

Sunday-----Day1)Prune,Preen,Clean glass inside, 50% or more H20
change, vac/sub, 1/2Tsp-KN03, 1/8-ish/Tsp-KH2P04,1/8Tsp-K2S04,
clean glass on outside.
Monday-----Day2) 10ml Trace, 2ml-Fe
Tuesday----Day3) 1/2Tsp-KN03, 1/8ish/Tsp-KH2P04,1/8Tsp-K2S04.
Wednesday-Day4) See day2
Thursday---Day5) See day3
Friday------Day6) See day2 
Saturday---Day7) Nothing or prune, or walk the dog etc.
Sunday-----Day8) See day1

Thank you cbennet for the handout you made available 
to the public during your presentation at a local meeting...Kudo's!
This can either be printed directly off the screen, or 
you can drag and drop it to your desktop for printing.


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## Georgiadawgger

Good stuff...my hand was getting tired too from typing that all the time. The plantex CSM recipe is also important for folks to understand here. 

It seems as though most people have been mixing 1 TABLEspoon with 250 ml of water or double that (2 TBS in 500 ml). That may work fine for most. At times I wish I were still in school to "borrow" a little bit of HCl. 

Personally, I always end up with a mold in my bottle even though I put it in the fridge so I mix 1/2 TABLE with 250 ml of water and dose DOUBLE the required amount. So....in my 65 g tank I would dose 20 mL a day instead of 10.


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## jgc

Another conversion. In a 1 tablespoon to 250ml, 20 ml = 1/4 teaspoon of fert. (there are 12 - 1/4 teaspoons disolved. 250ml/12=20.83ml
-----
I am currently dosing solutions (one of macros, one of plantex) from white plastic bottles (1/2 and 1/2 containers - I am a coffee addict). I have not kept them refrigerated. Need to refill my macro (ran out this morning), so will look for growth inside tonight.


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## milalic

Do you keep plantex CSM refrigerated?


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## Georgiadawgger

milalic said:


> Do you keep plantex CSM refrigerated?


Not the dry powder...just the mixed solution


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## Oqsy

I have a request. could someone convert the above table for use with the following macro sources? (these items are locally available for myself and many other hobbiests where the greg watson stuff would require s&h charges)

NO3: Green Light
P: Fleet
K: KCl powder / pellets

I know Sulphur is covered by the K2SO4 many use for dosing, but is it necessary to add it to the above items in conjunction with Flourish or TMG, or should "average" tapwater contain enough of sulphur to keep plants happy?

Oqsy


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## Wö£fëñxXx

See here.


EDIT: added NFO and link
Plus character limit yadda



Oqsy said:


> I have a request. could someone convert the above table for use with the following macro sources? (these items are locally available for myself and many other hobbiests where the greg watson stuff would require s&h charges)
> 
> NO3: Green Light
> P: Fleet
> K: KCl powder / pellets
> 
> I know Sulphur is covered by the K2SO4 many use for dosing, but is it necessary to add it to the above items in conjunction with Flourish or TMG, or should "average" tapwater contain enough of sulphur to keep plants happy?
> 
> Oqsy


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## Wö£fëñxXx

milalic said:


> Do you keep plantex CSM refrigerated?


Some do, some do not, Personally I keep mine in old 250ml flourish bottle's which are dark, plus I keep them in the dark, so no algae/mold issue's for me anyway.
Then again Dawger's plan is good too!


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## Wö£fëñxXx

jgc said:


> Another conversion. In a 1 tablespoon to 250ml, 20 ml = 1/4 teaspoon of fert. (there are 12 - 1/4 teaspoons disolved. 250ml/12=20.83ml


Good NFO jgc, Thank You! I will do some homework, just to double check, then add it to the list... roud:


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## rrguymon

Quick question? On tank 1 you suggest dosing iron in addition to the traces. On tank 2 and 3 you don't? Is there a reason for that?

Rick


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## Georgiadawgger

rrguymon said:


> Quick question? On tank 1 you suggest dosing iron in addition to the traces. On tank 2 and 3 you don't? Is there a reason for that?
> 
> Rick



Nothing special...I add a shot of iron (2-3 ml) about 2 or 3 times a week for my 65g. So long as you have enough plant biomass, high co2 and relatively high macros, adding more iron will only benefit the plants.


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## Buck

Definately worthy of the sticky Craig... good job and thankyou from all of us ! roud:


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## m.lemay

> Personally, I always end up with a mold in my bottle even though I put it in the fridge so I mix 1/2 TABLE with 250 ml of water and dose DOUBLE the required amount. So....in my 65 g tank I would dose 20 mL a day instead of 10.


I've never had a mold issue with my CSM mix. It could be because of chlorinated tap water. Chlorine kills mold. 

Which leads me to my next thought: 

Maybe adding a drop of chlorox to a 250ml bottle of solution would prevent the mold from growing. It wouldn't be detrimental to the fish since the concentrations we add to the tank are so miniscule. Just an idea;Please don't jump on me about how chlorine can kill fish. So can nitrates and we add those to the tank. :tongue: 

Marcel


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## m.lemay

Almost forgot: Great job Craig. Thats 2 awesome posts in one day. roud: 

Marcel


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## scolley

Craig - I'm sure this is kidstuff for all you dry dosers out there, but would you mind posting the levels your recommended doses will raise the levels of a given macro/micro? For instance (I'll show my dry fert ignorance here)...

Tank's (1)
20~40gal
+/-1/4Tsp-KN03 3x a week - raises K by X ppm, N by Y ppm
+/-1/16+Tsp-KH2P04 3x aweek - raises K by X ppm, P by Y ppm
+/-1/16+Tsp K2S04 3x a week - raises K by X ppm
+/-5ml Trace 3x a week - unknown
+/-1-2ml Fe/Iron 3x a week - raises Fe by X ppm

What we are ultimately providing is macros/micros and having a corresponding understanding of the impact of the added would be great - at the very least an understanding of macro/micro uptake rates. Thanks. :icon_bigg


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## jgc

looked in both solution bottles. Roughly 1 month unrefrigerated, inside of white bottle still perfectly white - no algae.


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## Georgiadawgger

scolley said:


> Craig - I'm sure this is kidstuff for all you dry dosers out there, but would you mind posting the levels your recommended doses will raise the levels of a given macro/micro? For instance (I'll show my dry fert ignorance here)...
> 
> Tank's (1)
> 20~40gal
> +/-1/4Tsp-KN03 3x a week - raises K by X ppm, N by Y ppm
> +/-1/16+Tsp-KH2P04 3x aweek - raises K by X ppm, P by Y ppm
> +/-1/16+Tsp K2S04 3x a week - raises K by X ppm
> +/-5ml Trace 3x a week - unknown
> +/-1-2ml Fe/Iron 3x a week - raises Fe by X ppm
> 
> What we are ultimately providing is macros/micros and having a corresponding understanding of the impact of the added would be great - at the very least an understanding of macro/micro uptake rates. Thanks. :icon_bigg



Actually, google the Fertilator (won't provide link since its from another forum). That thing will calculate ppm from dry or wet ferts based on tank size. 

Marcel, I may try the drop of chlorine...the wierd thing is I think my tap water is chock full of it already (it smells like a swimming pool and taste's like a$$--ever tried Potomic River water :tongue: ?). 

When I was conducting my research I sowed my seeds and grew the seedlings in hydroponic solutions (Rorison's) and we always added about 2 mL of 10% HCl and refrigerated it. 

Maybe I got a bad batch of Plantex??? Actually, I don't mind the frequent mixing...the woman calls me the "mad scientist" whenever I break out the graduated cylinder, DI water and some random powder!!


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## Wö£fëñxXx

rrguymon said:


> Quick question? On tank 1 you suggest dosing iron in addition to the traces. On tank 2 and 3 you don't? Is there a reason for that?
> 
> Rick


Hello Rick, thank's for the question, sorry about that, was just a slight over-sight on my part, I have it edited and fixed now.

When a tank is running good, clean, being dosed as prescribed, plant's are growing well, Iron/Fe is a luxury, not a necessity, although it does add a nice sparkle to the tank/plants, if you do not have iron but feel the need to dose it, just add more Trace :wink:


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## Wö£fëñxXx

*Buck, Marcel.*

Thanks you guy's,
You have alway's rocked in my book! 
You mod's do a great service to the community, all of you! (although, some of those stray p0rn link's can't get deleted fast enough at time's. Ha) and all of you are much appreciated!!


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## Wö£fëñxXx

Georgiadawgger said:


> Maybe I got a bad batch of Plantex??? Actually, I don't mind the frequent mixing...the woman calls me the "mad scientist" whenever I break out the graduated cylinder, DI water and some random powder!!


Ed,
Maybe the DI water is what is causing you trouble with you're mix, I use straight tap, in old flourish bottle's and have never had an issue with mold,
I bet if you use tap on you;re next mix it may solve you're issue as well.
I dare ya to try it :wink: 

Although I also have an RO/DI unit, thought has never crossed my mind to use it for that, I do however use it for my bubble counter.


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## Wö£fëñxXx

Steve,
I have found/read this NFO somewhere along the way at one time or another, I will try to dig it up again, and post it just for you buddy! roud: 
Just so you know, for instance, Fe, is not an easy thing to test for in such small amount's, so, you will be wise in my book, not to get to bound by number's/test kit reading's, I have found that most people that get into trouble with their tank's with algae's of one form or another are relying to much on a number/$10 test kit, while their +/-$1000-Tank/plant's suffer...

Thanks



scolley said:


> Craig - I'm sure this is kidstuff for all you dry dosers out there, but would you mind posting the levels your recommended doses will raise the levels of a given macro/micro? For instance (I'll show my dry fert ignorance here)...
> 
> Tank's (1)
> 20~40gal
> +/-1/4Tsp-KN03 3x a week - raises K by X ppm, N by Y ppm
> +/-1/16+Tsp-KH2P04 3x aweek - raises K by X ppm, P by Y ppm
> +/-1/16+Tsp K2S04 3x a week - raises K by X ppm
> +/-5ml Trace 3x a week - unknown
> +/-1-2ml Fe/Iron 3x a week - raises Fe by X ppm
> 
> What we are ultimately providing is macros/micros and having a corresponding understanding of the impact of the added would be great - at the very least an understanding of macro/micro uptake rates. Thanks. :icon_bigg


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## scolley

Thanks Craig. I think you just made a very good, and gentle, point. But to put a sharper point on it, I might rephrase is as "_a little knowledge can get you in a lot of trouble_". And we all know that's right. So, if I may, I'd like retract the request for the additional info. Here's why...

As a sticky to be used by the dry fert novice, this is a _outstanding information tool _ as it stands now. You're knowledge of good dosing regimens is testified to, for all to see, in your tanks. They are among the very best! So I suspect that the info you are providing here should be taken at face value - just plain followed. For those seeking more knowledge, they can go seek it in places like the Fertilator or Chuck Gadd's mixing calculator, but they do that at the risk of straying from a tried and true path. 

No, I think your sticky may best serve the dosing novice audience by keeping the info just as it is now. roud:


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## BobWu

_Tank's (3)
For a 60~80gal
50%H20 change
+/-3/4Tsp KN03 3x a week
+/-1/4Tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/-1/8+Tsp K2S04 3x a week
+/-15ml Trace 3x a week
+/-4-8ml Fe/Iron 3x a week_

1/4 Tsp Kh2po4 will add 3.46ppm Phosphate to 80 gallon of water, or 4.61ppm to 60 gallon. I think the EI recommended level is 1-3ppm???


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## rrguymon

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> When a tank is running good, clean, being dosed as prescribed, plant's are growing well, Iron/Fe is a luxury, not a necessity, although it does add a nice sparkle to the tank/plants, if you do not have iron but feel the need to dose it, just add more Trace :wink:



Thanks a bunch. I have some extra iron. I think I will give it a try. Great sticky by the way. Great place to start when doesing. 


Rick


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## Oqsy

Oqsy said:


> I know Sulphur is covered by the K2SO4 many use for dosing, but is it necessary to add it to the above items in conjunction with Flourish or TMG, or should "average" tapwater contain enough of sulphur to keep plants happy?


Does anyone have an answer to this? I'm dosing with what I believe to be a pretty darn good translation of the numbers from the first post in my 29, with the sulphur obviously being lower, and the K+ from KCl being a little fuzzy. Is there anything at all to the SO4, or is it just filler and an easy way to get more K+ into solution?

Oqsy


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## Wö£fëñxXx

Thank you Bob,

This why I have the +/- before each amount, for the number conscious individual that need's the crunch... 
Those number's are in fact a good starting point, for any individual wanting to get a good feel for dosing the EI on his/her tank within the range's specified.

Dosing precise amount's/tweaking (+/-), based on volume specified within each tank/s size catagory is entirely up to said individual.

Personally I think that the EI recommended number of 1-3 is being modest, even 5ppm P04 is not bad, and the plant's do not seem to mind it either.
I have ran 5+ppm P04 on tank's to see the result's for myself, tested with cheap kit's mind you, but they were accurate enough.
I did not see any adverse effect with a P04 reading of 5ppm, although 2ppm, 3ppm is good, 4ppm or 5ppm, is not bad.
I will do some more testing on this and post result's but my finding's so far are, very clean plant's and tank with an average 3~5ppm P04 while also maintaining a moderate level of KN03, K+ & Trace's, with highlight, C02 injection.

Actually the only downside I found, was being a bit wasteful on the KH2P04 being dosed, and some have high level's of Phosphate in thier tap water, while it is still not recommended to use Phosphate sponges, remover's absorber's, etc.
However I am not recommending people run 5ppm P04 on their tank, the +/- is thier for my protection also  that is for the individual that feel's the need to tweak his/her tank parameter's, those number's are average dosage's and a good starting point for people.

Maybe Tom will pop in and give his opinion on this also...





BobWu said:


> _Tank's (3)
> For a 60~80gal
> 50%H20 change
> +/-3/4Tsp KN03 3x a week
> +/-1/4Tsp KH2P04 3x a week
> +/-1/8+Tsp K2S04 3x a week
> +/-15ml Trace 3x a week
> +/-4-8ml Fe/Iron 3x a week_
> 
> 1/4 Tsp Kh2po4 will add 3.46ppm Phosphate to 80 gallon of water, or 4.61ppm to 60 gallon. I think the EI recommended level is 1-3ppm???


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## Wö£fëñxXx

Ogsy,
I will do my best to have all those answer's for you by this weekend, I have been digging around on the sulfur NFO and so far I have found nothing noting that it is a "needed" nutrient, I believe that therer is some "S" in dGh of our tap water, and Seachem root tabs also have lots of "S" in them.
I will continue to dig out this info for you.

How are you plant's resonding to the KCI, Fleet and greenlight you are providing for them?



Oqsy said:


> Does anyone have an answer to this? I'm dosing with what I believe to be a pretty darn good translation of the numbers from the first post in my 29, with the sulphur obviously being lower, and the K+ from KCl being a little fuzzy. Is there anything at all to the SO4, or is it just filler and an easy way to get more K+ into solution?
> 
> Oqsy


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## Wö£fëñxXx

I added an RTF/Rich Text File, (wordpad) for you're downloading pleasure  on main page at bottom, very handy for keeping track of dosing, especially if you have more than one tank, if you need it and want to use it, Please help yourself!

Thanks


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## Georgiadawgger

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> Thank you Bob,
> 
> This why I have the +/- before each amount, for the number conscious individual that need's the crunch...
> Those number's are in fact a good starting point, for any individual wanting to get a good feel for dosing the EI on his/her tank within the range's specified.
> Dosing precise amount's/tweaking, based on volume specified within each tank/s size catagory is entirely up the said individual
> 
> Personally I think that the EI recommended number of 1-3 is being modest, even 5ppm P04 is not bad, and the plant's do not seem to mind it either.
> I have ran 5+ppm P04 on tank's to see the result's for myself, tested with cheap kit's mind you, but they were accurate enough.
> I did not see any adverse effect with a P04 reading of 5ppm, although 2ppm, 3ppm is good, 4ppm or 5ppm, is not bad.
> I will do some more testing on this and post result's but my finding's so far are, very clean plant's and tank with an average 3~5ppm P04 while also maintaining a moderate level of KN03, K+ & Trace's, with highlight, C02 injection.
> 
> Actually the only downside I found, was being a bit wasteful on the KH2P04 being dosed, and some have high level's of Phosphate in thier tap water, while it is still not recommended to use Phosphate sponges, remover's absorber's, etc.
> However I am not recommending people run 5ppm P04 on their tank, the +/- is thier for my protection also  that is for the individual that feel's the need to tweak his/her tank parameter's, those number's are average dosage's and a good starting point for people.
> 
> Maybe Tom will pop in and give his opinion on this also...


My tap water naturally has 5+ ppm PO4 and no issues...less dosing too


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## GraFFix

Just a quick question...

When you are dosing, I see most everything is 3X a week. Do you guys dose different things on different days? Or is it ok to just does everything at once? basically I dose but im not on any type of schedule. I do try to do it every other day, but having such a high light tank Ive been noticing I could be doing better with dosing. 

Just wondering if there any any downsides to dosing all at once or alternating dosing for different days? Like trace's/Iron on monday, KN03 and P04 on tues, traces/iron wed..etc 
I mean it would be simpler to just does everything at once 3x a week. But im not sure if thats the best plan...I downloaded that text file and will be using it to get a schedule down. hopefully the greenspot will go away once i get things organized 

thanks for the post and the text file


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## Wö£fëñxXx

Dosing 3x a week is just a smart plan for providing everything the plant's need throughout the week, I will draw up an example of a plan that I myself and many others use, and post it on front page...
Dosing all at once, seems to create a small problem between Iron in Trace, or Fe, and Phosphate, so dosing all at once is not highly recommended, that is fine for a lowtech no C02 tank, but for highlight C02 injection, it seems to work best, doing odd even days on mAcro's/mIcro's..

Will have it drawn soon...

Thanks for the question!



GraFFix said:


> Just a quick question...
> 
> When you are dosing, I see most everything is 3X a week. Do you guys dose different things on different days? Or is it ok to just does everything at once? basically I dose but im not on any type of schedule. I do try to do it every other day, but having such a high light tank Ive been noticing I could be doing better with dosing.
> 
> Just wondering if there any any downsides to dosing all at once or alternating dosing for different days? Like trace's/Iron on monday, KN03 and P04 on tues, traces/iron wed..etc
> I mean it would be simpler to just does everything at once 3x a week. But im not sure if thats the best plan...I downloaded that text file and will be using it to get a schedule down. hopefully the greenspot will go away once i get things organized
> 
> thanks for the post and the text file


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## jgc

Personally I find a daily routine easier to keep than one that is every other day.


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## rrguymon

It looks like I have been under dosing traces? The sticky says to mix 1TBS of CSM+B in 250 ml of water. Greg Watson's web page says to mix 1TBS in 500 ml of water. 

I have been adding 10 ml from the ratio GW recommened. Hmm I just mixed up some more solution with the more concentrated recipe. I will give it a try. 

I have some Baby Tears and some Blyxa Japonica that are just haning on. They are not really growing or dieing just kind of dorment. I hope increasing the traces will get them going. 

Rick


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## fatbysl

I was looking and i thought iron was a trace element? Looking at his dosing he has traces seperate with iron so what are traces then?


Here is what i dose for my 125 gal tank does this look like a good start.


1.5t of nitrates kno3 3x week
1.5t of mono potassium phosphate kh2p04 3x week
.5t of plantex csm+b plus iron 3x week

Is their something i need to add take away or does this look good? Also i quit dosing the iron right now because im having a bba outbreak so im dosing flourish excel right now to get rid of if 25ml everday.


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## donaldbyrd

*can some one please help me with this*

OK I have a 125 gallon tank heavily planted
Following this sticky I would dose:
kno3 1.5 tsp 3x wk
kh2po4 .5tsp 3x wk
k2so4 .25tsp 3x wk
trace 30mil 3x wk

OK here is where I am confused and need help
according to chuck's calculator this would give me
Nitrate 32.66 ppm I know I am shooting for 20-30 ppm so will back this down to 1.25 tsp which will give me 27.22ppm 
Phosphate 10.62 it shows my target should be 1 ppm
Potassium 9.97 it shows target should be 20ppm 

Am I missing something ?
From my reading I feel I have the KNO3 down but I am really confused on the Kh2po4 and k2so4


any help would be appreciated


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## Wö£fëñxXx

Ogsy I came across this, I hope it will give adequate answer's for you.

*Nitrate (NO3) from KNO3 (Greenlight Stump Remover)
*
Greenlight brand stump remover is pure potassium nitrate (KNO3). 

MWs: Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) = 101.1, NO3 = 62, therefore NO3 is 61% of KNO3

From consensus on the Aquatic Pants Mailing List it is recommended to use 10 ppm KNO3 twice per week.

10 ppm NO3 = 10 mg/l NO3. Since KNO3 is 61% NO3 you need 10/.61 = 16.4 mg/l of KNO3

In 10 gallons there are 3.77 x 10 = 37.7 liters

For 10 gallons you need 37.7x16.4 = 618 mg of KNO3

To get 10 ppm NO3 from KNO3 in each 10 gallons of water add .62 grams of KNO3.

So for 100 gallons add 6.2 grams KNO3

For 75 gallon tank

For 10 ppm in 66.2 gallons (75 gal tank) use .62x(66.2/10)= 4.1 grams of KNO3 (twice per week)

For 125 gallon tank

(105.7/66.2) x 4.1 g = 6.5 g

Use 6.5 grams of KNO3 twice per week for the 125 gallon tank.

Use 2 x (1/2) teaspoon (6.2 grams = 9.5 ppm) twice per week.

*Phosphate from Fleet Enema*

For Generic Fleet Enema (assume anhydrous)

MWs: Monobasic Sodium Phosphate (NaH2PO4) = 120, PO4 = 95, therefore PO4 is 79% of NaH2PO4

Dibasic Sodium Phosphate (Na2HPO4) = 142, PO4 = 95, therefore PO4 is 67% of Na2HPO4

Monobasic Sodium Phosphate (NaH2PO4) = 19 g, .79 x 19 = 15.01 g PO4

Dibasic Sodium Phosphate (Na2HPO4) = 7 g, .67 x 7 = 4.69 g PO4

Total PO4 is 19.7 g in 133 ml of water. Or 148 mg/ml

For Generic Fleet Enema (assume hydrated compounds)

MWs: Monobasic Sodium Phosphate (NaH2PO4·H20) = 138, PO4 = 95, therefore PO4 is 69% of NaH2PO4·H20.

Dibasic Sodium Phosphate Na2HPO4·H20 = 160, PO4 = 95, therefore PO4 is 59% of Na2HPO4·H20.

Monobasic Sodium Phosphate (NaH2PO4·H20) = 19 g, .69 x 19 = 13.11 g PO4

Dibasic Sodium Phosphate (Na2HPO4·H20) = 7 g, .59 x 7 = 4.13 g PO4

Total PO4 is 17.24 g in 133 ml of water. Or 130 mg/ml

According to John Fitch, Fleet says that the concentration of PO4 is 131.36 mg/ml

*Potassium (K) from Muriate of Potash (KCl), 0-0-60
*

How much KCl is needed to make 5 ppm K in a 100 gallons of water?

KCL, Muriate of Potash. The bag says 0-0-60. It also says K2O=60%. MW of K=39.1, of O=16. K2O is 83.0% K. That means the bag is .6 x .83 = 49.8% K.

5 ppm = 5 mg/L

You have 100 gal x 3.77 = 377 liters

For 5 ppm K you need 5 x 377 mg K = 1885 mg K

1885 K/.498 = 3785 mg KCl

To raise K 5 ppm in 100 gallons add 3.9 grams of KCl. 

Chemical Computations 



Oqsy said:


> I have a request. could someone convert the above table for use with the following macro sources? (these items are locally available for myself and many other hobbiests where the greg watson stuff would require s&h charges)
> 
> NO3: Green Light
> P: Fleet
> K: KCl powder / pellets
> 
> I know Sulphur is covered by the K2SO4 many use for dosing, but is it necessary to add it to the above items in conjunction with Flourish or TMG, or should "average" tapwater contain enough of sulphur to keep plants happy?
> 
> Oqsy


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

fatbysl said:


> I was looking and i thought iron was a trace element? Looking at his dosing he has traces seperate with iron so what are traces then?


They are both Trace, mIcro nutrient's,
Flourish, TMG, KB, Plantex CSM, CSM+B, CSM+Bw/ extra Iron, they all have iron, some more than other's, Flourish, is the crème de la crim of them all, then Plantex. 
here is a comparison.

http://www.gpodio.com/fert_table.asp



fatbysl said:


> Here is what i dose for my 125 gal tank does this look like a good start.
> 
> 
> 1.5t of nitrates kno3 3x week
> 1.5t of mono potassium phosphate kh2p04 3x week
> .5t of plantex csm+b plus iron 3x week
> 
> Is their something i need to add take away or does this look good? Also i quit dosing the iron right now because im having a bba outbreak so im dosing flourish excel right now to get rid of if 25ml everday.


If BBA is growing, get that C02 up up up, pick it out, I will not lie to you, BBA is hard to rid, good conditions, and a steady dosing regime with lots of C02 will slow the growth way down, clean everything that has it, intake/exhaust tubes, hoses, heater, filter, substrate, clip off every leave that has it, bury infected substrate, no light= no growth, and so on.

1.5Tsp KH2P04 3x a week for a 125g is a bit much, use about 1/2Tsp 3x a week.

.5Tsp CSM+B is about 40ml, start with a little less than 1/2, roughly 3/8


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

donaldbyrd said:


> OK I have a 125 gallon tank heavily planted
> Following this sticky I would dose:
> kno3 1.5 tsp 3x wk
> kh2po4 .5tsp 3x wk
> k2so4 .25tsp 3x wk
> trace 30mil 3x wk
> 
> OK here is where I am confused and need help
> according to chuck's calculator this would give me
> Nitrate 32.66 ppm I know I am shooting for 20-30 ppm so will back this down to 1.25 tsp which will give me 27.22ppm
> Phosphate 10.62 it shows my target should be 1 ppm
> Potassium 9.97 it shows target should be 20ppm
> 
> Am I missing something ?
> From my reading I feel I have the KNO3 down but I am really confused on the Kh2po4 and k2so4
> 
> 
> any help would be appreciated


For a heavy planted 125 you should be in good shape with that regime, Nitrates and Phosphate are more important than Potassium, also take into concideration that when dosing "K"N03 & "K"H2P04 the amount of Potassium (K+) that is going in from those two chemical's(K), target for K+ is in the 15 to 30 ppm range, and after looking at you're plan, I noticed I had a slight typo in the Potassium scale on that one set of tank's, I fixed it, Thank You  
So you would actually want to dose close to a 1/2Tsp K2S04 3x week.

KN03 looks good, I wouldn't go any less than 1.25Tsp for a heavy plant mass high light C02 125g tank, unless you have a hefty bioload and feed hard, then you would still need to be alert, you do not want to run out of any nutrient at any time, especially nitrates, and especially during photo period, that would open you up to some mean BGA, its better to have a little more than a tad less, a little more will not hurt.

I personally make sure that my highligh C02 tank's have all the needed nutrient's in the water before the light's come on, I think it is just good practice.

Lastly, KH2P04, target is actually around 1 to 3, but I have ran it as high as 5+ppm with no adverse effect's.
Keep in mind we are dealing with variable's, plant uptake rate's, which I suspect change daily, up, down.
amount of food, bioload etc.
Try not to get to hung up on number's calculators and test kit's untill you learn to read the plant's.

Doing the above regime, will eliminate alot of variable's, especially if you start having some trouble along the way with various algae types, you will need good C02, it's a must, if you have high light, poor C02 will bring in alot of trouble by itself, so dosing enough KN03, KH2P04, K+, Trace,s then C02 is where you need to look.

I hope this help's you, any more question's along the way, we will leave the light on for ya 
and keep us informed of how you're plant tank is running, and it's progress.

Thank's


----------



## donaldbyrd

will do and thanks this makes more sense now


----------



## Carpet-Pond

What a perfect sticky! Maybe after everyone who hasn't tried this regimen starts to, we can share results and compare how it works for those who use higher or lower co2 and lighting and how it can be adjusted in various ways if any. roud:


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## Oqsy

wolf: thanks a million for those conversions, man! i'm bookmarking this and using it for my dosing calcs from now on 

Oqsy


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## Wö£fëñxXx

You are welcome Ogsy!


----------



## Betowess

m.lemay said:


> I've never had a mold issue with my CSM mix. It could be because of chlorinated tap water. Chlorine kills mold.
> 
> Which leads me to my next thought:
> 
> Maybe adding a drop of chlorox to a 250ml bottle of solution would prevent the mold from growing. It wouldn't be detrimental to the fish since the concentrations we add to the tank are so miniscule. Just an idea;Please don't jump on me about how chlorine can kill fish. So can nitrates and we add those to the tank. :tongue:
> 
> Marcel


I have read to add HCL (Which is aka Boric Acid or Hydrocloric Acid). I can't recall the amount, but it is very little like 10ml for 500ml or something like that... But keeping it in the fridge prevents the mold.


----------



## markstr

I personally have talked with Craig over the phone and it has really been a
pleasure for starters... This whole thing can make alot of people either strive to get it down or just walk away from the hobby due to fustration...
Keep up the great work here Craig! I believe it is appreciated by all!!!!!!


----------



## A Hill

alright time to start asking lots of newby questions.

i have a 55g tank high light around 4wpg and co2 injection system. atm my tank is moderatly planted. im letting my plants grow out and im pickey on what i buy so it will fill with time. they are all growing great. i have some aglea starting up. no bba just some hair/tread algea. i ohavent started ferts yet besides some flurish excell here and there. i need to start a fert scedual. so how should i do it? i know little to nothing about ferts. should i do what you had on the front page? i need to start and am pretty clueless... so i need some help. and thanks for all the time people put into this stickey there is alot of great knowlage here!

thanks again! 

-=- fish newb -=-


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

Hi Fish newb, 

It's like riding a bike, really very simple, but tell that to someone whom has not rode yet! eh,

Balance!

Light, C02, Nutrient's.

50%H20 change-weekly
+/-1/2Tsp KN03 3x a week
+/-1/8Tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/-10ml Trace 3x a week

@4wpg, you should be dosing at least 
1/4Tsp KN03
1/8Tsp KH2P04
10ml Trace 3x a week
or you are going to have unpleasent issue's:icon_cry: 

gregwatson.com can fix you up with all the nutrient's
get 
1lb KN03, 
1lb KH2P04, 
1lb of Plantex CSM+B
He also has the small measuring spoons, or you can get them at wal-mart.

Having an insufficient amount of plant's in a new tank is another error, waiting for them to grow in will invite algae, unless you cut your light by half.

I would reduce the lighting to 2wpg or less until you can give the plant's what they need for the highligh environment.

Some variable's involved when dosing, fishload, source water, etc.
Keep reading and asking all the questions you want, you will get it!

Read rex guide if you haven't yet, good place to start.


----------



## A Hill

thanks a lot! ill have to order them. and i cant reduce the light... since they are all wierd together. i do have some algea but not much. 

also when you say three times a week. when would you suggest? could i just dose them all on monday,wensday,friday?

thanks alot again! 

fish newb


----------



## jgc

I do not know what others do, but I plan my dosing arround my schedule. I start it off the morning after my water change. I have found that prime messes with my NO3 test kit and am not sure if it is actually messing with my NO3 or not. As a precaution, I am now letting prime do it's thing with the cloromine overnight and starting my ferts in the morning.

My water day varies between Sunday and Tuesday.


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

Fish Newb said:


> thanks a lot! ill have to order them. and i cant reduce the light... since they are all wierd together. i do have some algea but not much.
> 
> also when you say three times a week. when would you suggest? could i just dose them all on monday,wensday,friday?
> 
> thanks alot again!
> 
> fish newb


You could raise the fixture above tank some.

An "example" of dosing 3x a week 

40~60gal 
Sunday-----Day1) 50% H20 change, 1/2Tsp-KN03, 1/8-ish/Tsp-KH2P04,
Monday-----Day2) 10ml Trace, 
Tuesday----Day3) 1/2Tsp-KN03, 1/8ish/Tsp-KH2P04,
Wednesday-Day4) See day2
Thursday---Day5) See day3
Friday------Day6) See day2
Saturday---Day7) Nothing or prune, or walk the dog,
Sunday-----Day8) See day1

This would be with a good plant load, if low plant load dose about half this, if you do not have C02 dont worry about any of it, dose some trace once a week.


----------



## amitabh

Hi!

I'll throw myself into the discussion. I am battling an invasion of staghorn at the moment, hence looking into EI dosing of dry ferts. It is starting to make sense that if there is ANY nutrient in deficiency the algae, being opportunistic, can take advantage of the situation. 

Anyway, just a quick comment re dosing: 1/8 teaspoon... have even seen 1/32 elsewhere :tongue: I am guessing this has to be an estimate (as with the whole method). I have read Rex' guide but still unsure about a few things: 

1) should the dry ferts be dosed straight into the tank - in powder form?
2) is it okay to use teaspoon or is a digital gram scale neccessary?
3) any recommended trace mixture? TMG is readily available in here in Europe...

Thanks,

amitabh


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

Hello Amitabh,

1)Dosing in powder form directly to tank is perfectly okay and safe, or you can mix in a cup with a bit of water stir and serve, either way!

2)Teaspoons are fine, digital scales are optional and entirely up to you, but not necessary.

3) TMG is fine, Flourish by Seachem, or Plantex CSM+B, any one will do just fine.


----------



## amitabh

Perfect, thanks for quick answer! 

I am in the process of ordering the chemicals - I am lucky as I can get them locally. 

Okay, I was just feeling a bit shaky when thinking how to dose 1/32 teaspoon... that would indeed be VERY estimative! :hihi: 

Regards,

amitabh


----------



## A Hill

i do have co2 and i cant raise the light... im very depressed to say i have a horrible outbreak of green water so im thinking about doing a black out for around a week? then im going to start my dosing! thanks alot im going to need to get my stuff now!

-=- fish newb -=-


----------



## mustang

Ok I have read this thread and have a 75G that is planted. One question though that I can't seem to figure out. I am using fleets for my source of PO4, right now I am dosing 2ml 3x a week. Going according to tank 3's chart for dosing it calls for 3/16Tsp of KH2PO4 3x a week. Is the 2ml I am dosing enough to equate to the 3/16Tsp?


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

Hello Mustang,

Answer this please sir, at any given time performing a P04 test, do you have a reading of 1~3ppm P04? if so, you are within range, if not, adjust accordingly.


----------



## ajoyprabhu

I am missing something here I bet. I have a 72g heavily planted tank, and all I add in it *continuously* (using dosing pumps) is 2mL/hr of CSM+B and 1ml/hr of Flourish Excel. These go in 24/7 and then every 3 weeks when I do a 40% water change I pump about 15mL of each.

Oh and of course, there is about a minuscule amount of algae that the SAE and I (using my glass scrubber) take care of.

I am not sure if one needs to dose it so accurately everyday. 

Just my ¢2! 

Ajoy


----------



## valleyvampiress

ajoyprabhu said:


> I am missing something here I bet. I have a 72g heavily planted tank, and all I add in it *continuously* (using dosing pumps) is 2mL/hr of CSM+B and 1ml/hr of Flourish Excel. These go in 24/7 and then every 3 weeks when I do a 40% water change I pump about 15mL of each.
> 
> Oh and of course, there is about a minuscule amount of algae that the SAE and I (using my glass scrubber) take care of.
> 
> I am not sure if one needs to dose it so accurately everyday.
> 
> Just my ¢2!
> 
> Ajoy


I'm no expert, but it seems like you're only doseing micros and CO2. Your plants will fare much better with some macro dosages. I used to use Flourish Excel not that long ago for my CO2, and still, my plants benifited from recieving some macros (although not dosed as often).


----------



## ajoyprabhu

oops! My mistake. i meant that I am dosing with GW mix. Sorry about that.

1/2 litre of water 
1 tablespoon chelated trace mix 
1 tablespoon MgSO4+7H2O (Magnesium Sulfate) 
2 tablespoons K2SO4 (Potassium Sulfate) 
1 tablespoon KNO3 (Potassium 

Ajoy


----------



## josh_simonson

*hydrochloric acid*

For the guy that was pining for HCl, you can get it at home depot in the swimming pool department as 'muriatic acid'. I used it for recharging DI resin for the tank with no problems. This stuff is pretty strong, be careful.


----------



## alexandre

Here is what I am dosing for a 35 G high light + CO2.

50%H20 change-weekly
1.5 gr. KN03 3x a week
0.2 gr. KH2P04 3x a week
0.3 gr. K2S04 3x a week
10 ml Flourish 3x a week

I received this week some iron chelate 10%, so I was wondering what I should do?

5ml Flourish + 1ml Fe 3x a week
or
5ml Flourish + 2ml Fe 3x a week
or
10ml Flourish + 1ml Fe 3x a week
or
10ml Flourish + 2ml Fe 3x a week

Thanks.


----------



## John S

> Trace Element and Iron, either Retail Premixed, such as Flourish, TMG, etc or Plantex CSM,CSM+B,CSM+B w/Extra Iron & Fe/Iron Chelate 10%- mix 1Tbsp per 250ml/ one capful=5ml


 ok just one ? for u if i wanted to just mix a bottle of Iron Chelate 10% would i add 1 tbsp of iron to 250ml of h2o and how much would every ml add to a 20 gal tank???


----------



## Naja002

According to the fertilator:

18 grams (1 Tbsp-?) added to 250ml of water would add 0.1ppm per ml. on a 20 gal tank.

HTH


----------



## TINNGG

Ok, my brain is officially fried.

It's been so long since I've looked at a math problem more complex than 
1+1=6 (what?! You mean it doesn't? Ahhhhh... They're coming to take me away! hahah).

How does spectracide stump remover compare to green light?

And I have a canister of No Salt here for potassium - is that usable?

I know, I know; Greg Watson. I promise, I will order from him. I need to get some trace anyway since finding Seachem trace around here is an exercise in frustration (I can find it *if* I want to blow an hour or more and waste gas)


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

TINNGG said:


> Ok, my brain is officially fried.


You're mind is aglow with trancient nodes of thought.



> How does spectracide stump remover compare to green light?


The back of the bottle will say something like *Active ingredient 100% Potassium Nitrate.*



> And I have a canister of No Salt here for potassium - is that usable?


Yes indeed



> I know, I know; Greg Watson. I promise, I will order from him. I need to get some trace anyway since finding Seachem trace around here is an exercise in frustration (I can find it *if* I want to blow an hour or more and waste gas)


I would make it easy on myself and order all you need from him, its to easy.


----------



## TINNGG

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> You're mind is aglow with trancient nodes of thought.
> 
> 
> The back of the bottle will say something like *Active ingredient 100% Potassium Nitrate.*


Yes, and they're mostly fried thoughts. Not enough sleep, too many kids, and no math to speak of in 20 years.

I looked on the spectracide site as the bottle doesn't say anything. They have the MSDS on there but for some reason my computer won't open it (get a warning that this operation isn't allowed). So... I dunno.

Edit - I should have looked closer at the list of links Google pulled up. There's a site out there that lists household products, and ingredients as per the MSDS - it's 100% Potassium Nitrate. Ok. That'll work then huh?

What concentration of potassium is in the No Salt? I've heard it and Nu Salt recommended but no dosing info (so far, or maybe I haven't looked hard enough)


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

I have used spectracide stump remover, so yeah you sure can use it, as far as the No Salt goes, I really could not say, I have not used it, I use K2S04.
I believe there are a couple/few here that have used NoSalt in the past, maybe they will read this and respond. 
Come on you NoSalt users answer the gal's question:wink: 

The spectracide should have enough potassium in it to keep you at a satifactory level, unless you start really pumping some light over the tank.


----------



## plantbrain

I like not having to say all this:hihi: 

Thanks Craig:angel: 

I prefer Grant's or Cooke's brand stump remover for KNO3.
Always have.

A simple thing for auto dosers, take the total amount of water you add to that doser container, divide by how much it'll dose for that time frame and add the dry ferts.

An example explains this better:

Say the dosing pump will add 50mls a day.

50X7 days in a week= 350 mls total.

Say you want to make dosing batches once every two weeks.

Add the total weekly EI amounts suggested x 2.

That's it.

No need to figure ppms etc and funny conversions etc.

Just add the amount dosed of liquid per 2 weeks(700mls in this example), add the dry ferts for a two week time frame. That's it, very simple.

Rather than worrying about how much is dosed each day, you think over a week or two week time frame etc, so 30ppm of NO3/7 days = 4+ppm NO3 etc per day.

This is a much easier auto dosing method and calculation.

Daily measurements are not very telling, but 2-3 week times frames are when it comes to dosing routines.

For Traces, you can do the same thing, I tend to add TMG and then add some RO water to get my dosing dilutions.

Do not mix PO4 and traces together in a auto dosing system!

You folks that like daily dosing, simply alternate traces/macros, so every other day. TMG will not preciptate out nearly as much as Flourish.
It also have a fair amount of Mg(this can be added to Flourish and CMS as well and will help a little, or added separately).

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Alight

At least the New salt I'm using is essentially 100% potassium chloride (KCl. I believe Chuck Gadds dose calculator includes KCl as well as K2SO4 for calculating how much to add.
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm?chemnum=8&amt_grams=4.8&amt_tsp=1&amt_tbsp=0.33&h2oamt=500&tanksize_gal=55&tanksize_liters=208.2&mixppm=0.03+ppm+Phosphate&targetppm=.5-1ppm+Phosphate and so does the fertilator

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilator.php


----------



## TINNGG

The NoSalt I have here lists the ingredients on the back as Potassium Chloride, Potassium Bitartrate, Adipic Acid, Silicon Dioxide, Mineral Oil, and Fumaric Acid. Hmmmmmm...

Methinks this might be better in the kitchen. :/ Chuck's calculator is kinda useless here - Mac, not PC <mutter>


----------



## seastar0328

*confuzzled..*

Using the calculations found in this thread, I have crunched the numbers and come up with what I needed. BUT...(and there's always a but)

My dry ferts have different chemical compilations. I wasn't very good at chemistry...kept my science gpa below the req'd for vet school...even after taking each class twice. I can, however, do the calculations if someone reminds me how to do them for each mineral. 

My ferts are N= Nitrate of soda...16-0-0 
total nitrogen (N) = 16%
16% nitrate nitrogen
derived from: nitrate of soda
potential basicity - 580 lbs calcium carbonate per ton.

Superphosphate 0-18-0
Available Phosphat (P2O5) = 18%
Derived from : superphosphate

Muriat of Potash which is not the KCl as calculated in this thread already
0-0-60
Soluble Potash (K2)) = 60%
Derived from: muriat of Potash

Today is day 1 with fertilizers so I'm a fresh newb. 

Also I read that dosing Fe is a "luxury not a necessity". Knowing this after I bought some liquid iron, I didn't dose my tank yet. It does, however, contain some trace minerals as well: Sulfur, Copper, Manganese, and Zinc. I thought copper was bad bad bad news for fish though this contains .125% water soluble copper. 

Again, if someone can remind me how to do these long a** calculations on each substance (macros at least), I will be willing to do the work on my own. Or let me know if they do use these substances, how to figure out the dosing. 

Thanks


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

I am not familuar with some of your compounds, but that does not mean much  although I am a bit leery of your N03 and P04.
Any highschool student should be able to read a set of measuring spoons and a list of tank sizes and the amount to dose is listed on the front of this thread.
If in doubt get the known compounds from www.gregwatson.com just to keep things simple.
For the chemically challenged
http://users.ev1.net/~SPITUCH/Chemicals/chemicals.html

You may also want to read www.rexgrigg.com


----------



## sunmiztres

This is a wonderful thread, thanks everyone. I just have a question, my nitrates are always alittle high. If i have 20 or 30 ppm of nitrates then i should not does them, Am I correct? I am trying to get them down through water changes but they won't go down. I have 10 ppm of nitrates out of the faucet. Also what should my Nitrate reading be at for a heavily planted tank with 4 WPG on the light?
Thanks


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

20/30ppm is good, especially with 4wpg, you should be dosing about half the recommended amount if in fact you do have 10ppm out of tap.
Are you dosing any? if not, I would question you method of testing, and take the results of a $10 kit with a grain of salt.

How is the plant health/ growth rate and overall tank performing?

How is your C02? 
I could go on with questions, read this thread and rexs guide if you need too.


----------



## sunmiztres

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> 20/30ppm is good, especially with 4wpg, you should be dosing about half the recommended amount if in fact you do have 10ppm out of tap.
> Are you dosing any? if not, I would question you method of testing, and take the results of a $10 kit with a grain of salt.
> 
> How is the plant health/ growth rate and overall tank performing?
> 
> How is your C02?
> I could go on with questions, read this thread and rexs guide if you need too.


No I have never dosed nitrates since my nitrates have been high other then the traces that contains a little of it . My plants are growing like crazy. I have pressurized co2 for all my tanks and i run about 40ppm of it. The only thing i have that makes me think i should dose nitrates is a bit of algae on the glass and some hair algae in one of my tanks. I have tested my nitrate with 3 different test kits and they always come back reading the same as the rest of the kits. I have 3 different tanks. The ones that have fry always run higher since i over feed them, I think.
Are you saying I should go ahead and dose nitrates even though my test kit says I have 30? Do you think it will help with the algae.
I have read rex's guide and this whole thread plus tons of other stuff and I am trying to find my nitch. 
Thanks for any more info you can give.


----------



## TINNGG

How often are you doing water changes? I had a brief experience with a (planted) tank of juvie angels having nitrates of 40+. The fish pipples suggested daily w/c to get down the nitrates. I complied as by then I'd already lost 2 of the 5 and was starting to wonder if I was going to lose all of them. They're wilds so probably had never seen a nitrate before my acquiring them.


----------



## sunmiztres

TINNGG said:


> How often are you doing water changes? I had a brief experience with a (planted) tank of juvie angels having nitrates of 40+. The fish pipples suggested daily w/c to get down the nitrates. I complied as by then I'd already lost 2 of the 5 and was starting to wonder if I was going to lose all of them. They're wilds so probably had never seen a nitrate before my acquiring them.


I do a water change on the fry tanks 3X a week to get the nitrates down.
My other tanks that don't have fry run around 15 on the nitrate.


----------



## danepatrick

for the 20-40 gallon tanks, you say 5ml of trace 3x week. do you mean 5ml as in 1 Tsp, or what? i'm confused and NOT good with math.


----------



## TINNGG

sunmiztres said:


> I do a water change on the fry tanks 3X a week to get the nitrates down.
> My other tanks that don't have fry run around 15 on the nitrate.


I do a 50% daily on my tank of betta fry. And I still got the feeling it wasn't enough, so got a larger container.

I moved the 3 angels into my display tank after 3 weeks just to give them elbow room. The daily or every other day w/c coupled with frequent feedings had inspired growth - and with that came attitude.


----------



## Nightshop

I've got a question:

I'm having trouble finding a 1/16tsp measuring spoon . . .

When dosing nutrients in increments of 1/16 tsp, do you guys just carefully cut 1/8tsp in half?


----------



## RoseHawke

danepatrick said:


> for the 20-40 gallon tanks, you say 5ml of trace 3x week. do you mean 5ml as in 1 Tsp, or what? i'm confused and NOT good with math.


Google has a great function that few people are aware of. You can put in the search field for instance - 5 milliliters in teaspoons - and it will return a conversion. In this case it comes out to 1.01442068 US teaspoons. I think I'd just call it a "teaspoon" and have done with it .


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

You can do a half 1/8 for 1/16Tsp that would be fine, just keep it simple dosing really is not complicated at all.  



Nightshop said:


> I've got a question:
> 
> I'm having trouble finding a 1/16tsp measuring spoon . . .
> 
> When dosing nutrients in increments of 1/16 tsp, do you guys just carefully cut 1/8tsp in half?


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

danepatrick said:


> for the 20-40 gallon tanks, you say 5ml of trace 3x week. do you mean 5ml as in 1 Tsp, or what? i'm confused and NOT good with math.


Use an old Flourish bottle if you have one, mix 1 Tablespoon per 250ml water if using Plantex, then when dosing, one capfull=5ml. or if you are using Flourish same rule, one capfull=5ml...


----------



## sunmiztres

I have a question about this Regime's. Do you guys test for Nitrate and Phosphate before dosing the 2nd and 3rd time in the week or do you just dose whether you need it or not? Today would have been my 2nd time this week for dosing but I tested my Phosphate and it was 2.0 and the nitrate was 30 this is of course assuming the test kits are accurate. This is why I was wondering if you test before dosing or just dose without testing.
Thanks


----------



## turbowagon

It's probably a good idea to test when starting a new fertilization regime... probably overkill to do it before each dose. If I'm paranoid about the levels, I'll test before the weekly waterchange to see how much excess I ended up with over the course of the week. I may then adjust the dosing amounts the following week (or omit the first macro dose if the levels are high enough).


----------



## danepatrick

i would think that if you ended up with too much after the first dose, then you are dosing too much at one time. imo, i would just lower your doses so that you can still dose 3 times a week and still be right on parameters. but then again, if you're dosing one time and coming up with that much, it might be the right idea to just let your plants use it up and test on each scheduled day and see where you are and if you need to add some, then add and if not, then don't. i'm not sure which is the correct way or if it even makes a difference. can anyone confirm this?


----------



## sunmiztres

danepatrick said:


> i would think that if you ended up with too much after the first dose, then you are dosing too much at one time. imo, i would just lower your doses so that you can still dose 3 times a week and still be right on parameters. but then again, if you're dosing one time and coming up with that much, it might be the right idea to just let your plants use it up and test on each scheduled day and see where you are and if you need to add some, then add and if not, then don't. i'm not sure which is the correct way or if it even makes a difference. can anyone confirm this?


That's what I was doing all along. Dosing what i need as to what my tests say but I am not sure that my tests are 100% correct. If i do that then it kind of takes this dosing regimen and throws it out the window, wouldn't you say? Dose what you need by testing. My nitrates always run on the higher side. 2 tanks are usually around 30 and 2 tanks are 10. My phosphorus usually is .5 on all 4 tanks. All tanks have 4.25 watts per gallon and I am running 40 ppm on co2 on all tanks using the " graph ". My plants are always pearling and that tells me the co2 is good. I am trying to up it as much as possible since i am now starting to get thread algae. With 4.25 watts per gallon on a heavily planted tank where should my figures be. Like should I aim for 1.0 on phosphorus, 10 on nitrate ( although on 2 of my tanks I can't even get my nitrates to 10ppm and that's without dosing any kno3, they are always reading around 30), always dose pottasium since i can't measure it. I do dose the plantex w/ Boron as my traces. Can anyone let me know what figures I should aim for knowing my watts and that my tanks are all heavily planted? My plants do grow very well, I need to trim them every week so the smaller plants can get some of the light or the tall plants will shade them. I am now starting to get a thread algae, and fuzz algae on my glass so I am trying to get a even kill on everything.
Thanks for any info you can give.

One more " stupid " question. If my nitrates read 30 should I then raise my phosphorus so that they are even. I read you should have 1.0 phosphorus for every 10 of nitrate. Should I then add 3.0 of phosphorus to the 30 nitrates or... I have always wanted to know this.


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

You are having algae problems because you are trying to skimp on the nutrient's by dosing according to a cheap test kit, bad mistake, it only and always has caused folks issues, with 4wpg-ish, that is alot of light, and the margin for error is very easy to achieve with .5 P04 etc it is probably less than that I would imagine.
I dont even use test kits, I havent touched one in about a year or so.
Just dose according to this thread, keep the C02 going good, if you start having algae issue's after that, then it is a C02 light issue, that is all that is left. 
(There are other variables also, like if the tank was built properly, type of substrate ie. using to fine sand etc, type of filter, enough current without to much, some surface movement, all play a part).

With 4wpg, plants can and will do a sudden burst of growth, when nutrients are available, if you pinch, then the nutrients bottom out plants stunt and in comes the algae.

Plants and algae are the best test kit, learn to read the plants, it takes a bit of getting use to, and the accuracy is much much better.

As the tank matures and plants grow, more nutrients are required, this sticky covers all the bases for a very successful tank.. add nutrients, manage C02 efficiently and equally important is light management.


With that amount of light, you need a good supply of nutrients, when you test and get a reading of say 30 or 40 ppm N03, people have an "emotional" movement that usually moves them to act in detriment to the plants, 
Plant's have no emotion and could care less if the nutrient level is 30ppm, as long as they have enough. 

weekly water changes reset and start over, it really works:fish1: and is simple.


----------



## Tacoshooter

*75 gallon high light*

Thought I'd add my two cents in because I've finally locked in my 75 gallon to the point where I think the dosing is stable and plants are thriving. Maybe someone else can use this.

This tank has pressurized CO2 and 324W of T5 lighting, which is kept on for 8.5 hours each day. Filtration is through a Eheim 2126 and a 2213 (which is used for water current and a utility filter, i.e. UV but normally run empty). A Pinpoint controller is used 24/7 for CO2 regulation (calibration checked bi-weekly).

Plant load is heavy with a number of stems, although there is quite a bit of slower-growing plants like blyxa japonica.

Input water is 100% RO, due to the fact that our water both fluctuates and is basically liquid rock. With the controller involved, I like to be very certain of my parameters. With all that said, here's what I do/dose:


50% WC on Sundays, RO water rebuilt with 1 tsp. Barr's GH Booster and 1/2 tsp of baking soda. Nutrient dosing is done following the water change.
Su, Tu, Th: 1 tsp KNO3, 1/8 tsp KH2PO4, 10 ml Excel.
M, W, F: 10 ml Plantex from a stock solution of 2 tbsp in 500 ml of water.

Certainly nothing groundbreaking, but I hope this helps someone. I also try to actively remove any dead or dying leaves, or anything afflicted with algae.


----------



## Brilliant

Nice! I like the update. 

I think the deadly combination is the plants demand for o2 at night combined with the lack of o2 produced by the plants during the day.


----------



## StrikeEagle1

*75 gal Dosing*

From Chuck's calculator dosing dry (GW Ferts) for a 75 gal tank with pressurized CO2, 260 watts...

1 tsp KNO3
1/4 tsp phosphate
1 tblspn potassium

Where I get confused is Iron and CSM+B dosing? I dose everything dry with measuring spoons (simple), from reading the sticky it sounds like I should dose 1 1/2 teaspoon iron and 1 tablespoon CSM+B (both 3x week)? Those tsp and tablespoon numbers are off the google conversion that someone posted above....since everything for CSM and Iron is in mL!

Can someone run a sanity check on my numbers?:icon_conf


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

This is what you should dose for a 75g

Tank's (3)
For a 60~80gal
50%H20 change-weekly
+/-3/4Tsp KN03 3x a week
+/-3/16Tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/-1/4Tsp K2S04 3x a week
+/-15ml Trace 3x a week
+/-4-8ml Fe/Iron 3x a week

If you choose to dose Plantex dry 1 tablespoon to 250ml, 20 ml = 1/4 teaspoon of fert. (there are 12 - 1/4 teaspoons disolved. 250ml/12=20.83ml

So for a 75g you would want to dose 3/16Tsp-CSM 3x weekly.
Iron would be 1/16+/- 3x weekly.

I hope your not dosing 1 Tablespoon K+ 3x a week, thats a bit much..lol

Tsp=Teaspoon.



StrikeEagle1 said:


> From Chuck's calculator dosing dry (GW Ferts) for a 75 gal tank with pressurized CO2, 260 watts...
> 
> 1 tsp KNO3
> 1/4 tsp phosphate
> 1 tblspn potassium
> 
> Where I get confused is Iron and CSM+B dosing? I dose everything dry with measuring spoons (simple), from reading the sticky it sounds like I should dose 1 1/2 teaspoon iron and 1 tablespoon CSM+B (both 3x week)? Those tsp and tablespoon numbers are off the google conversion that someone posted above....since everything for CSM and Iron is in mL!
> 
> Can someone run a sanity check on my numbers?:icon_conf


----------



## StrikeEagle1

Thanks for the info...if I put my tank size into Chuck's calculator and try to match the 20ppm that it suggests for K in K2SO4 it comes up with 2.25 teaspoons. So why only 1/4 tsp 3x week??? Does it have to do with the amount you want at the end of the week?

Also, if I dose dry I'm looking at the amount of trace (dry) that I would need in order to equal one does (15 mL) of the pre-mixed in water solution? Same for iron? :icon_ques


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

StrikeEagle1 said:


> Thanks for the info...if I put my tank size into Chuck's calculator and try to match the 20ppm that it suggests for K in K2SO4 it comes up with 2.25 teaspoons. So why only 1/4 tsp 3x week??? Does it have to do with the amount you want at the end of the week?


I don't use chucky's adding machine for ferts, so either something is off, or you are doing it wrong. 1/4Tsp of K+ 3x weekly is plenty for a 75g, you are also getting some K+ from the addition of KN03 and KH2P04



StrikeEagle1 said:


> Also, if I dose dry I'm looking at the amount of trace (dry) that I would need in order to equal one does (15 mL) of the pre-mixed in water solution? Same for iron? :icon_ques


Yes
As posted above for dosing these dry.
For a 75g you would want to dose 3/16Tsp-CSM 3x weekly.
Iron would be 1/16+/- 3x weekly.


----------



## fusQer

StrikeEagle1 said:


> Thanks for the info...if I put my tank size into Chuck's calculator and try to match the 20ppm that it suggests for K in K2SO4 it comes up with 2.25 teaspoons. So why only 1/4 tsp 3x week??? Does it have to do with the amount you want at the end of the week?
> 
> Also, if I dose dry I'm looking at the amount of trace (dry) that I would need in order to equal one does (15 mL) of the pre-mixed in water solution? Same for iron? :icon_ques


i had this same dilemma, so i went halfway between and will just watch the plants and algae and see how they react.


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

Did you guys get this slight delimma going your way? is the K+ issue resolved?


----------



## StrikeEagle1

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> Did you guys get this slight delimma going your way? is the K+ issue resolved?



After reducing my dosing of K, I'm actually starting to see pinholes in some leaves and a 'washed out' look to them. I'm going to up my dosage some next time my autodose reservoir needs to get filled.


----------



## ccLansman

Quick q? Do you use tank #2 or tank#3 for a 60gal?


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

It depends on your fish load/plant load, amount of light being burned etc. 
See the +/- next to each fert? add/subtract based on the above, it does not have to be exact, weekly or bi-weekly water changes will even things out.
You get a feel for it.
Start with Tanks 2 +/- 
The rest is C02 and light.


----------



## Reigning_Angels

This may have been posted already, I read the first 5 pages and skimmed the rest, but I notice your chart doesn't mention dosing Mg but you do have a column for it. When would a person need to does this, how often, and for what purpose?


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

That is a simple note pad for keeping score of what has been dosed if one needs to keep up with it.
Nine times out of ten you will not need to dose Mg, there are ample amounts in trace mix like Flourish, TMG, and Plantex.

Fertilizer Comparison

Using RO/DI as source water I have yet to see a need to dose Ca and or Mg as a stand alone nutrient at any time.
This does not mean that plants do not have a need for trace amounts of either Ca, Mg.

However I do use all three of these trace mix solutions to dose my tanks, usually Plantex CSM+B exclusively, but at times I do also use TMG and Flourish, because each Trace mix does have different properties.


----------



## Aflac

Hey guys,

I just moved about a month ago and had to start over basically but I've been using this method of dosing for about 6 months and it's helped my tank a lot. I have next to no algae growing (Still trying to get rid of the BBA from lack of CO2) and the plants grow pretty well but I still don't get pearling.

I was looking for some suggestions that might push me over the edge here and get my plants pearling (or is this even something to worry about?).

Currently I have a 65G, Eco-complete soil with 192W of lighting with pressurized CO2.

My dosing is:
~40$ H2O change on Sunday
M, W, F - 1/2tsp KNO3, 1/4tsp KH2PO4
T, T, S - 5ml Flourish Excel.

I'm pretty sure I'm just about maxed out CO2 because if I turn it up anymore the fish really start struggling.

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I'd really like to get these plants pearling!!!

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

If everything is growing well and the overall health of the tank is good, then I would not worry about it.
But, you can try adding more light briefly and see how that does, but be careful doing that, you will change the aspect of the tank ie, plant growth rate will increase, nutrient uptake will increase including a greater demand for C02, so be mindful of that.
Take note of the tanks stability at present so that if things turn for the worse, you can do a system restore. 
Add more light.


----------



## CdoGG

Hello

I am a total newbie. I have a 29gal with about 25 gals of water, total. 

I have a 2x65w light with 2- 3L DIY yeast bottles.

Right now I just have root ferts in place. I have some dry ferts on order from Rex. I have been dosing flourish half a capful twice a week.

I run one 65w bulb for from 8am to 8pm. The second bulb turns on for 3 hours in the middle of the day.

When I get my ferts how should I dose? I know nothing, so any suggestions would help. I am getting iron as well.

TIA
Chris


----------



## bigstick120

Read the beginning of this thread, it will tell you all you need. Thats a lot of light, keep up with dosing and dont let the CO2 drop or you will have problems


----------



## CdoGG

bigstick120 said:


> Read the beginning of this thread, it will tell you all you need. Thats a lot of light, keep up with dosing and dont let the CO2 drop or you will have problems


So I should just use this one?

Tank's (1)
20~40gal
50%H20 change-weekly
+/-1/4Tsp-KN03 3x a week
+/-1/16+Tsp-KH2P04 3x aweek
+/-1/16+Tsp K2S04 3x a week
+/-5ml Trace 3x a week
+/-1-2ml Fe/Iron 3x a week


I started the second yeast bottle one week after the first. The first one is really going well after the first week. Now with two going I get 1 to 2 bubble a sec. Eventually I will go pressurized.

Thanks
Chris


----------



## bigstick120

Yes that is a good starting point. Save yourself some trouble and go pressurized sooner then later


----------



## CdoGG

bigstick120 said:


> Yes that is a good starting point. Save yourself some trouble and go pressurized sooner then later


I hear ya on that one, its just so costly. Is there any inexpensive equipment that can be had ?


----------



## Loyal to the Oil

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> I don't use chucky's adding machine for ferts, so either something is off, or you are doing it wrong.



I thought this calculator was the godsend for EI dosing ? Now its not accurate ? Isnt there one "good to follow" method for dosing EI ? If so then where ?

James


----------



## tazcrash69

Chuck's Calc doesn't really have anything to do with EI. It just tells you how much of each nutrient you are dosing based on ferts, and water volume. 

I think the original problem StrikeEagle1 had was that he only got the amount of K from K2SO4, and Craig's recommendations from the first post in this thread also take into consideration the K you get from KNO3, and KH2PO4.


----------



## plantbrain

Quenton has an EI dosing cal, but EI does not depend on them either.

EI and most of the methods I have done pre date dosing calculators.
I do not use dosing calculators personally because I am not chemically challenged. I check things a few things to make sure.

CO2 gas systems are cheap, just like ferts, if you DIY and get something like the ebay regs for 10-20$, a fire company CO2 tank, (40-50$), needle valve, (15-22$), DIY diffuser/reactor, (10-20$).

I hear lots of bellyaching about the high cost of gas CO2, and no one complaining about their high electric bills and cost for those high light systems however..........

Any dosing routine that you do will be MORE robust= more stable, if you use less light.

More is not better.

This has been shown in the hobby, with respect to algae, with respect to plant deficiences, with respect to lean and rich methods, even non CO2, growth rates and in the research.

I'm not sure why so many folks suggest high light. Why manipulate the nutrients/CO2 when the driver is light to begin with? Makes no logical sense.

If you are merely curious and want to test some specific relationships, then that is fine, it's an experimental system, thus treat it as such, but do not complain that you want stability and ease of horticulture with high light, that's got some serious flaws in your reasoning then.

I use some high light tanks for experimental stuff, but would never do that for a routineroud: 

I think George Booth and myself have been nagging folks about light for about 8 years or so. Which is about the time that high PC lighting became popular in the USA.

Now what I thought was an insane amount of light then and the max amount anyone might have later, is pretty common:thumbsdow 

Anytime you address one main thing like nutrients, you need to consider CO2, plant species, fish loading, and light as well. You have 3 or more things to manipulate here, not just nutrients.



Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Loyal to the Oil

How many WPG do you use for your "routine" tanks tom ?


----------



## Joetee

Wö£fëñxXx
Hey at the bottom of your first post here there is a thumbnail right above your signature. Can you post a better printable version please.
Joe


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

It works from the original, click the attachment, which opens it, then click the new page, it will go full size, can either drag and drop it to desktop to print or print from main page.

If you still have trouble let me know, I will get it to you some how, through email etc.


----------



## plantbrain

Loyal to the Oil said:


> How many WPG do you use for your "routine" tanks tom ?


Less than many.
I have high light tanks for test and comaprison purposes though.

Generally 2-3 w/gal is plenty.
Depends on the goal though, I can raise and lower the fixtures as I have open tops.

So the light hitting the plants is what I measure, not WPG.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Joetee

Wö£fëñxXx

Well it printed but not very legable.



Wö£fëñxXx said:


> It works from the original, click the attachment, which opens it, then click the new page, it will go full size, can either drag and drop it to desktop to print or print from main page.
> 
> If you still have trouble let me know, I will get it to you some how, through email etc.


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

Try this.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...sion/39102-handout-algae-prevention-talk.html


----------



## bwagner

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> *Tank's (2)*
> *Tank's (3)*
> 60~80gal
> 50%H20 change-weekly
> +/-3/4Tsp-KN03 3x a week
> +/-3/16Tsp-KH2P04 3x a week
> +/-1/4Tsp-K2S04 3x a week
> +/-15ml 3/16Tsp-Trace 3x a week
> +/-4-8ml-Fe/Iron 3x a week
> Etcetera.


What am I missing:

Potassium is to be around 20ppm.

If you add 1/4 tsp of K2S04 to 60 Gallons it will increase the level by 2.97ppm and if you add 3/4 tsp of KN03 it will increase the level by 7.16ppm. So it puts the Potassium level around 10 ppm. Where does the remaining 10ppm come from? From the tap water?


----------



## ILuvMyGoldBarb

Great thread, very very informative. Now, does anyone have a recommended regime for liquid ferts? I'd love to go dry but I just can't afford that right now, plus I have a 2L supply of Flourish and Flourish K to use up.


----------



## plantbrain

Loyal to the Oil said:


> How many WPG do you use for your "routine" tanks tom ?


I have two main types, most would call them low light, 2 w/gal at most and then the high light test tanks 5.5 PC to 8 MH's w/gal.
The 2w/gal or less are both non CO2 and CO2.
T5s are 1.5 w/gal.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

bwagner said:


> What am I missing:
> 
> Potassium is to be around 20ppm.
> 
> If you add 1/4 tsp of K2S04 to 60 Gallons it will increase the level by 2.97ppm and if you add 3/4 tsp of KN03 it will increase the level by 7.16ppm. So it puts the Potassium level around 10 ppm. Where does the remaining 10ppm come from? From the tap water?


I use GH booster which is about 40% K2SO4 and is added after each water change. Relative to KNO3 and the amounts of N remove vs K, the K will build up to about 2X the dosing rate over time if you do 50% weekly water changes.

N is removed at a 2-4 faster rate atom for atom than K+.

Quenton has a nice calculator for EI that's pretty user friendly.
I'm old school and do not use them at all.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

ILuvMyGoldBarb said:


> Great thread, very very informative. Now, does anyone have a recommended regime for liquid ferts? I'd love to go dry but I just can't afford that right now, plus I have a 2L supply of Flourish and Flourish K to use up.


Dry ferts cost about 1/4 of the cost of one of those bottles.
KCL and water is all the Flourish K+ is...........you can buy that at any grocer for 4-7$ for 50lbs.

Some folks have come up with commercial brand dosing etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## ILuvMyGoldBarb

So, to do dry ferts as cheap as possible could someone list the products they use for each fert and amounts used?


----------



## plantbrain

Sure, for your 125 gal tank there:

You need more plant biomass however.

1 tsp of KNO3
1/4 tsp KH2PO4(same thing PO4 from SeaChem is+ water)
GH booster: 1 tsp after water change only
20mls of traces 3x a week, Tropica master grow.

The macros run about 2$ a pound from aquarium fertilizers.com

So they will last about 3 mixes
4 x 1 lb of KNO3
1lb of KH2PO4
1 lb of GH booster

About 1-2 years etc for your tanks.

The trace mix, flourish is the largest expense.
I do not care for CMS personally for the trace mix.

But that's about to change, I have a custom made a aquatic plant specific mix for traces that we can mix dry(saves shipping cost by 10X less weight/less storage) and makes about 10-20x the same volume for the same price. So it's 10-20X cheaper than on line cheapo pricing.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## obet_07304

plantbrain said:


> I use GH booster which is about 40% K2SO4 and is added after each water change. Relative to KNO3 and the amounts of N remove vs K, the K will build up to about 2X the dosing rate over time if you do 50% weekly water changes.
> 
> N is removed at a 2-4 faster rate atom for atom than K+.
> 
> Quenton has a nice calculator for EI that's pretty user friendly.
> I'm old school and do not use them at all.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Tom, I was just looking at the difference between the GH Booster & K2SO4. It seems the GH comes w/ other micros the plants can use (Potassium Sulfate
Calcium Sulfate & Magnesium Sulfate). But what if your GH is already high? If I consider going w/ the GH Booster how much do you have to put(tsp please:smile: )? & for how many times? Thanks.


----------



## ILuvMyGoldBarb

The plant biomass isn't a problem. That picture in my sig was actually over a month old. The new one is much more current.
Thanks


----------



## obet_07304

obet_07304 said:


> Tom, I was just looking at the difference between the GH Booster & K2SO4. It seems the GH comes w/ other micros the plants can use (Potassium Sulfate, Calcium Sulfate & Magnesium Sulfate). But what if your GH is already high? If I consider going w/ the GH Booster how much do you have to put(tsp please:smile: )? & for how many times? Thanks.


Any answer to this question??? Anybody???


----------



## Naja002

If your Gh is already High then skip the Gh Booster and just use the K2S04.

Also, High Gh water often times turns out not to have enough Mg, so either pick up some magnesium sulfate too, or epsom salt from walmart....

HTH


----------



## GIO590

Georgiadawgger said:


> Good stuff...
> It seems as though most people have been mixing 1 TABLEspoon with 250 ml of water or double that (2 TBS in 500 ml). That may work fine for most. At times I wish I were still in school to "borrow" a little bit of HCl.
> ....


You can buy HCl at most home improvement stores. It will be labeled as muriatic acid. the only thing is you are going to end up buying like a gallon of it for 5 dollars or so


----------



## MikeyP

Ok I have a question that im not understanding. I didnt do good in this section of school!!! LOL I have a 120 and I want to dose trace (plantex CSM+B) Here is the chart on the 1st page that I need to use and than times it by 2....Can anyone please help me with this , how much powder do I need to dose this 120 tank???

+/-15ml 3/16Tsp-Trace 3x a week



Thanks


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

Approximately 1/3 Tsp, or 1/4 + 1/8 Tsp or 1/2 - 1/8Tsp.
You could also mix a solution and use a small ml measuring glass or anything else, fill it with 6 cap full which = 30ml and use that based on the amount of 6 caps.
It does not have to be exact, you just need enough.


----------



## MikeyP

Damn I should never second question my wife!!! She was right!!! Thanks so much for the input. I am new to this planted tank hobby and its kicking my butt so far!!! I will get it sooner or later....I just have to stop thinking so much cause its usually a lot easier than im thinking 


BTW you tank is amazing!!!!! WOWIE!!


----------



## fxie

After reading through the entire thread, as well as Rex's and Tom's guides, I have come up with the following dosing regime for my 1.6w/gal, DIY co2, 135gal planted tank. 

I was wondering if someone could critique this schedule for me and see if it falls within acceptable parameters:

1 tsp KNO3 x3 weekly
2 tsp K2SO4 x3 weekly
1/10 tsp KH2PO4 x3 weekly

Given those amounts, I would be adding (per dose) approximately:
6ppm of KNO3
30ppm of K
0.7ppm of PO4

I have yet to add the co2, as I am still waiting for the 2 diffusers I ordered to come in. What would be an appropriate co2 level for this size of tank? Also, could someone suggest a suitable amount of Fe to add as well?

Thanks very much!


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

DIY C02 on a tank that size will likely cause you grief unless you lower the light intensity a bit more, the WPG rule is iffy on large tanks, so some specific specs may help a little more.
I doubt you will get diffusers to work well if at all with DIY C02.

You're intended dosing is a bit excess based on the tank specs listed.
You will need some Trace minerals, Plantex, Flourish Comprehensive or Tropica plant nutrition, I recommend the Plantex, it is cheap and just as effective as the others, save up for a pressurized C02 system.

Do you have any fauna?
Do you have a lot of plants?
Filtration? (very important)
Substrate?
Exactly what kind of light? bulbs? wattage? do you have.

Based on you're listed information I would recommend lowering light intensity a bit and use the DIY C02 and see how things go with a dose of 1Tsp K2S04 and 15ml trace once a week for starters.,

If you start to notice BBA forming (pay attention, it is hard to get rid of), stop DIY C02 and do a heavy water change and leave the light off for a couple days.
Need more info.
Go Pressurized or buy stock in Tylenol.


----------



## fxie

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> DIY C02 on a tank that size will likely cause you grief unless you lower the light intensity a bit more, the WPG rule is iffy on large tanks, so some specific specs may help a little more.
> I doubt you will get diffusers to work well if at all with DIY C02.
> 
> You're intended dosing is a bit excess based on the tank specs listed.
> You will need some Trace minerals, Plantex, Flourish Comprehensive or Tropica plant nutrition, I recommend the Plantex, it is cheap and just as effective as the others, save up for a pressurized C02 system.
> 
> Do you have any fauna?
> Do you have a lot of plants?
> Filtration? (very important)
> Substrate?
> Exactly what kind of light? bulbs? wattage? do you have.
> 
> Based on you're listed information I would recommend lowering light intensity a bit and use the DIY C02 and see how things go with a dose of 1Tsp K2S04 and 15ml trace once a week for starters.,
> 
> If you start to notice BBA forming (pay attention, it is hard to get rid of), stop DIY C02 and do a heavy water change and leave the light off for a couple days.
> Need more info.
> Go Pressurized or buy stock in Tylenol.


Thanks for your reply Wö£fëñxXx.

In regards to some of the information I missed in my first post:
*Fauna:* 7 adult Angelfish, 4 German Blue Rams, 12 black phantom tetras, 11 otos, 6 corydoras, 4 SAEs.
*Plants:* The current plants we have in the tank are Java Fern, Anubias nana, Cryptocoryne petchii, 2 medium and 1 large (the leaves of the large reach to within 3" of the top of the tank) Echinodorus "Rubin", and 1 VERY large (diameter of leaves approximately 3", with total length reaching to the very top of the 24" deep tank) Echinodorus 'Rose'. I have been noticing some of the leaves of the Echinodorus "Rubin" turning transparent, which I will assume is from lack of iron. I have been dosing liquid ferts in the past, but as I have just recently added a large number of crypts and will soon be adding even more plants, nutrients will definitely be lacking. 
*Filtration:* Fluval FX5
*Substrate: * Unfortunately when I first started the tank, I did not plan on having as many plants as I do now, so the substrate consists of only regular plain gravel covered with an inch or so of white silica sand. I am currently using fertilizer tabs for my rooted plants. The only fertilizer other than the tabs I have been using is Flourish Excel.
*Lights:* 4x54w 48" T5s. They are drilled into my canopy (which is quite tall), and as a result are about 10" above the water line. I am only getting 1.6w/gal (probably less in reality, as I do not as yet have a reflector, and the lights hang a bit higher than usual).

Pressurized is too much for my current budget, so I wil be sticking with DIY for the immediate future 

Thanks for your help!


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## Wö£fëñxXx

I would start out as suggested, just keep an eye on things.
You have all slow growing low light plants, you do not want to push it to hard, if you do, the plants and tank will let you know.
You have a decent fauna load so you may not need to dose any N or P but then again a little would not hurt.
Dose the K2S04 and trace once a week, maybe twice, if doing twice do 10ml TE each time with 1/2 to 3/4Tsp K+
Keep an eye on it and let us know how it goes in a week or so or sooner if needed.


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## mrkookm

..........


----------



## frisbeedog

Several questions ... This thread took 2 days to read...

Im assuming when you do the water change, you bring the nitrates back up to about 20ppm. On day 6 of the cycle, right before the next water change, are the nitrates still 20ppm ? Is the theory to dose what the plants are burning off or to raise the nitrates up to a point where you need a water change to bring them back down? Reason Im asking is my tank isnt burning through the nitrates fast enough to warrant dosing nitrates 3x a week, I cant imaging my 100gal burning nearly 2tsp of NO3 a week. If I were to follow the prescription then I would need a WC because my nitrates would be way high. If the object is to keep level, I can adjust my dosages accordingly, and then pray for the day when I have enough plants to burn through that much gunpowder.

2nd .. I recently fell in love with Aponogeton bulbs cause they dont grow fugly roots from their stems, they're fast growers, and they dont shoot runners all over tarnation. I planted about 15 of them this weekend. Are these the types of plants to look for to burn up the nitrates and reduce the poliferation of Algae ? If anyone can recommend a Algae busting plant thread that'd be swell.

3rd ..

If the object of the game is to keep things in balance, why so many water changes ? We're dumping all these ferts out, then adding them right back in. What specific wastes is the water change removing ? Amonia? Nitrites? algae spores ? gerbils ?


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

Hey discdog 



> Im assuming when you do the water change, you bring the nitrates back up to about 20ppm. On day 6 of the cycle, right before the next water change, are the nitrates still 20ppm ? Is the theory to dose what the plants are burning off or to raise the nitrates up to a point where you need a water change to bring them back down? Reason Im asking is my tank isnt burning through the nitrates fast enough to warrant dosing nitrates 3x a week,


The object is to provide everything that the plants need in order to sustain healthy vibrant growth. N-P-K-TE-C02 (all this depending on the amount of light used) the more light burned the more nutrient the plants can consume up to a certain point.
On day 6 if the N03 is still 20ppm is hard to say, there are variables involved that determine what is going to be what at any given point in the cycle.
If your plants aren't using as much salt as you may assume they are will also determine how much light is being used and how well C02 is being utilized, plant mass, fish/food/waste etc.

This sticky is just a guide for dosing not the rule, the rule is plants need food N-P-K-TE-Carbon, the amount of light will determine how much of these they need.



> I cant imaging my 100gal burning nearly 2tsp of NO3 a week. If I were to follow the prescription then I would need a WC because my nitrates would be way high. If the object is to keep level, I can adjust my dosages accordingly, and then pray for the day when I have enough plants to burn through that much gunpowder.


Once again several variables involved with this, the amount of light, the amount of fish/waste/food, the amount of plant mass and type of plants being grown etc. all play a role. 
If the light over the tank is say around 2wpg/ish then dosing twice a week will be fine, maybe even a little less it depends. _Light is the driving force of the tank/plants._
You do not have to keep N03 @ 20ppm and P04 @ 2ppm the goal is to provide enough nutrients for the plants to sustain good growth without being short changed at any point in the cycle, it does not matter how much you dose as long as it is enough.



> 2nd .. I recently fell in love with Aponogeton bulbs cause they dont grow fugly roots from their stems, they're fast growers, and they dont shoot runners all over tarnation. I planted about 15 of them this weekend. Are these the types of plants to look for to burn up the nitrates and reduce the poliferation of Algae ? If anyone can recommend a Algae busting plant thread that'd be swell.


Apons are not very nutrient demanding unless you start torching them with mass lumens, they will actually grow quiet well in dimly lit tanks, to start a tank with 2+wpg of lighting you will really want to pack the tank with as many fast growing plants as possible, it is less headache than trying to maintain a tank with lots of light, nutrient and only a few plants.
Bottom line,to much light is usually the cause for peoples algae woes.



> 3rd ..
> 
> If the object of the game is to keep things in balance, why so many water changes ? We're dumping all these ferts out, then adding them right back in. What specific wastes is the water change removing ? Amonia? Nitrites? algae spores ? gerbils ?


The condition of an aquarium depends very much on the performance of its biological filter. When the filter's micro-organisms are thriving, the water will be crystal clear and there is no algae growth.

The chemical reaction that expresses the oxidation process carried out by the nitrobacteria which converts harmful ammonia into harmless nitrate is NH3; NO2; NO3. The bacteria that converts ammonia (NH3) into nitrite (NO2) is called Nitrosomonas, and the bacteria that converts that into nitrate (NO3) is called Nitrobactor. Research shown that the remaining nitrate is about 70 times less toxic than nitrite, but if enough accumulates in the water it can still be harmful. Therefore, it is always necessary to frequently change the aquarium water even when using a top-of-the-line filter.

So we need good filters and media, lots of oxygen or surface agitation, but not to the degree that we degrade our level of C02 content....which will be evident by algae growth, fish gasping and or poor plant health based on the amount of light over the tank, and keeping the tank clean and free from excess organics, dead floating, rotting plant matter, and frequent water changes.
With high light C02 enriched tanks comes more work/maintenance, for less work, use less light.

I hope this helps with some of your questions, but probably strikes more.

If you have gerbils in the tank, you may want to invest in a/some catfish.


----------



## stagius

I have a quick question about dosing potassium, K.

Someone suggest a level of K at 15-20 ppm. According to your regime, dosing 1/16 tsp K2SO4 in the first day only bring the level of K to 1.7 ppm ( for a 25 gallons tank). I wonder is it enough to provide macro nutrient for plants ?

Am i right to say that, in most case, the amount of K in tap water is nearly zero ? And feeding fish does not provide any K source ?


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

In calculating the K, don't forget to add in the K for (K)N03 and (K)H2P04.
In most cases the K from KN03 and KH2P04 is enough, adding more don't hurt, I only suggest adding K2S04 when burning a lot of light.


----------



## stagius

How do you know the amount of K in KHPO4 ? In med light ( 2.4 WPG), what is your level of K suggesting ?


----------



## Erk

Excellent posts Wö£fëñxXx! Its very well written, and should help plenty of people! I have some issues with long green hair algae and recently put A LOT more bio filtration in my cannister....Im hoping it will start to improve things a bit for me soon

Nice work:thumbsup:


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

stagius said:


> How do you know the amount of K in KHPO4 ? In med light ( 2.4 WPG), what is your level of K suggesting ?


KH2P04...
Knowing the amount is dependent on the ratio, ask your source/supplier if they have a percentage of the ingredients. 
The level of K I suggest is simply to make sure that you have some of all the nutrients in the water throughout the weekly cycle including a good amount of Carbon.
The main thing to keep in mind is not to burn to much light, a lot of folks have had trouble with that one issue, plants do not need as much light as most think.
A lot of these newer light fixtures these days are built for reef tanks, fresh water plants simply do not need that much light.
If one is keeping up with regular maintenance, has good flow, feeding the plants consistently and having algae issues, then you are burning to much light for either to long or to strong.


Thanks Erk, don't over burn the lights, feed the plants, maintain good flow throughout the tank and pay attention to the plants and you should be good to go, it really is a matter is being able to _see_ the differnce between a healthy plant and an unhealthy one.


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## mrkookm

..............


----------



## Erk

> Thanks Erk, *don't over burn the lights*, feed the plants, maintain good flow throughout the tank and pay attention to the plants and you should be good to go, it really is a matter is being able to _see_ the differnce between a healthy plant and an unhealthy one.


Thanks, Im slowly getting the hang of figuring out a healthy plant from an unhealthy one....finally! haha....but the main "jist" here is lower the light if your having problems! haha:thumbsup: :icon_lol: 

Thanks again!


----------



## Destinee

*Tank's (2)
*40~60gal
50%H20 change-weekly
+/-1/2Tsp-KN03 3x a week
+/-1/8Tsp-KH2P04 3x a week
+/-1/8Tsp-K2S04 3x a week
+/-10ml or 1/8Tsp-Trace 3x a week
+/-2-4ml-Fe/Iron 3x a week

can someone PLEASE break this down so I can understand it, I dont have a clue what products to get to add this stuff, I just dont understand it. LOL. I know I sound like a idiot, but I am new to this stuff and everything I read about dosing confuses me. :icon_redf


----------



## dekstr

Destinee said:


> *Tank's (2)
> *40~60gal
> 50%H20 change-weekly
> +/-1/2Tsp-KN03 3x a week
> +/-1/8Tsp-KH2P04 3x a week
> +/-1/8Tsp-K2S04 3x a week
> +/-10ml or 1/8Tsp-Trace 3x a week
> +/-2-4ml-Fe/Iron 3x a week
> 
> can someone PLEASE break this down so I can understand it, I dont have a clue what products to get to add this stuff, I just dont understand it. LOL. I know I sound like a idiot, but I am new to this stuff and everything I read about dosing confuses me. :icon_redf


Sure.

40~60 gallon = this dosing regime is for 40 to 60 gallon tank size

50%H20 change weekly = h2o is just water, , so a 50% water change once a week

+/- means plus or minus, "give or take". It doesn't have to be exact, since estimative index is an approximation anyway.

tsp = teaspoon

mL = millilitres

KNO3 is the chemical name for potassium nitrate
KH2PO4 is the chemical name for monopotassium phosphate
K2SO4 is the chemical name for potassium sulphate
trace means the "trace elements" or micronutrients that plants need in very small amounts, but nevertheless needed

Fe/Iron, Fe is the same thing as iron, just the chemical term for it. (see any element chart)

3x a week means you does that particular +/- amount three times over a period of a week.


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## tazcrash69

Just to add to dekstr's breakdown, those are for bulk dry ferts (cheapest way to dose). You can get them here.
trace is sold as CSM or CSM+B.

Just try not to dose your Macros (first 3 ferts) at the same time with your micros. 

Good supplemental reading here for dosing, why and how. 

Just remember that is a guildline, it should be modified to your tank's need. 

HTH


----------



## Destinee

dekstr said:


> Sure.
> 
> 40~60 gallon = this dosing regime is for 40 to 60 gallon tank size
> 
> 50%H20 change weekly = h2o is just water, , so a 50% water change once a week
> 
> +/- means plus or minus, "give or take". It doesn't have to be exact, since estimative index is an approximation anyway.
> 
> tsp = teaspoon
> 
> mL = millilitres
> 
> KNO3 is the chemical name for potassium nitrate
> KH2PO4 is the chemical name for monopotassium phosphate
> K2SO4 is the chemical name for potassium sulphate
> trace means the "trace elements" or micronutrients that plants need in very small amounts, but nevertheless needed
> 
> Fe/Iron, Fe is the same thing as iron, just the chemical term for it. (see any element chart)
> 
> 3x a week means you does that particular +/- amount three times over a period of a week.


 

THANK YOU! One other question, what products do I need to buy in order to add all of this stuff to my tank ???? I have florish excel, but is that enough?


----------



## Waste

*TMG and iron*

Great post :thumbsup: 

Just one question....

When talking about traces, 5ml every other day pr. 20g seems to be the rule. Tom uses TMG and says this amount is enough for a high light tank and EI...

But TMG has so little iron... 0.07%. To reach the target of 0.2ppm - 0.5ppm, the uptake must be 0 so that iron can build up...

Am I doing the math backwards here?


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## critter333294

Would plantex csm be interchangeable with regular Flourish? I'm thinking of ordering some from big al's since its on sale, but if it's not going to do the same thing, I wont bother.


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## Wö£fëñxXx

Waste said:


> Great post :thumbsup:
> 
> Just one question....
> 
> When talking about traces, 5ml every other day pr. 20g seems to be the rule. Tom uses TMG and says this amount is enough for a high light tank and EI...
> 
> But TMG has so little iron... 0.07%. To reach the target of 0.2ppm - 0.5ppm, the uptake must be 0 so that iron can build up...
> 
> Am I doing the math backwards here?


If you feel you need more iron add more trace if Fe is unavailable to you, either way you will be set.



critter333294 said:


> Would plantex csm be interchangeable with regular Flourish? I'm thinking of ordering some from big al's since its on sale, but if it's not going to do the same thing, I wont bother.


Flourish Comprehensive will do the same thing, not Flourish Trace, those two are different products.
I have used all the trace elements on the market and have found none to be any better than the other, so for me CSM+B wins because it is so much cheaper.


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## workshopper

Hey.

I have read a lot of articles about EI but still I have some questions. 
Certainly they are dumb but if I can't understand then I might ruin my tank. 

1)How much is one teaspoonful? Can anyone show me a picture?

2) I want to dose like shown on THIS website. 


20-40 Gallons (76-152 litres)

20ml solution or 1/4 tsp KNO3 3x a week
12ml solution or 1/16 tsp KH2PO4 3x a week
5ml solution or 1/16 tsp K2SO4 3x a week
5ml or 1/16 tsp traces 3x a week

I start using this chart/table to dose and I would like to know that if I must add 20 ml solution of KNO3 3x week or do I have to divide it like 20/3 and then dose about 7 ml 3x week.?

Thanks.

PS! Sorry about grammar.


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## Wö£fëñxXx

Hello.

Teaspoon
: a unit of measure equal to 1/6 fluid ounce or 1/3 tablespoon or 5 milliliters.

If you choose to dose in ml then 20ml 3x a week, no division needed, so that would be 60ml total within that week.
The same for KH2P04- 12ml 3x a week so thats 36ml within that week etc.

If dosing by the Tsp then 3/4 Tsp within that week so on and so forth.

I don't know if this will be of help but worth posting I suppose:
http://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/units/volume/volume.teaspoon.en.html

If you have any more questions feel free to ask.

Picture:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teaspoon

Your dosing does not have to be completely exact.

You're grammar is fine.


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## workshopper

Oh well, thanks for the answer.
It really helped me a lot. 

I'll gonna make solutions and start dosing.

Bye bye.


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## walluby

*Liquid ferts from dry ferts*

Hi yah!

I know Rex is going to hate me for this, but here it goes!

How can I get make a recipe for 3/ 32 oz. bottles, almost a litre,
when I have 3/4 of a tsp. of KN03 
3/16 of a tsp. of KH2P04 every other day
1/4 of a tsp. of K2S04
and then 1/4 of a tsp. of Trace alternating days

I tell ya, I'v read all these pages, looked elsewhere, including
Greg Watson's pages, listened to all the people that have 
stated that they are still confused, read the same thing over
regarding the dry dosage p/day, " ahh ", no brainer; and I haven't 
seen, - - - correct me if I am wrong, or even long winded, has anybody come up with such a recipe for a litre (32oz.) bottle!

I have tried to do the math, to no avail, looked at all the conversion
charts for grams, millilitres, tsps, tblsps., cups, quarts, and even
litres! I am not an idiot! And I know this should not be that much work!
But I am asking for a little help! I know the answer is probably quite
simple, and I am sure it's going to kick me in the head!

What I don't understand is if 3/4 of a tsp. is mixed with water, what 
is the measurement of that amount of water used. If one knows this,
then one can measure the amount for a litre bottle. I was trying to
figure out if you add 1 tblsp. of Plantex for 500 mls., do you do the same for the other ferts. If one is 3/4's, and one is 3/16', and the other is 1/4,
then why would you take out a tblsp? That doesn't add up correctly given
the weekly dose.

O.K. I'll stop!

Can one of you guys help with this?
I admire and appreciate all that WolfenxXx has contributed to this thread,
I think everyone will agree that he/she has been very informative!


----------



## plantbrain

Just a note:

If you folks are fretting over smaller teaspoon volumes etc, are more inclined to dose daily vs 2-3x a week, then I'd suggest going to liquid solutions.

To make them, take that dry dosing amoutn for 2=4 weeks, add it to a 1/2 liter of water, then divide by 15 or 30 days to get the daily dose, or 6-12 X for the 3x a week routine.

500mls in 1/2 liter divided by the days (say 30) = 16.6 mls per day.
You can vary the solution strenth however you wish.

Really up to you.
Also, you might look at the older APD post for other methods of dosing etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Kayakbabe

*confusion over how to figure teeny amounts of dry fert when you can't measure them.*

I see a lot of posts about confusion over how to figure teeny amounts of dry fert when you can't measure them. And, I see a lot of posts that give a lot of measurements and different volumes and a lot of scientific measures. 

But this problem can be addressed really simply for those that get confused by lots of numbers and fractions and percentage.

Let's break this down to something as simple as possible.

The problem: You want to dose a 1/4 teaspoon of something but don't know how to measure it and only have a 1 teaspoon measure.

Okay, now look at your aquarium, is it big or little? This will make sense as you read on.

Get a bottle like a single serving coke bottle maybe, it could be a smaller bottle or a bigger one. It doesn't really matter, but if you've got a pico sized tank, a small bottle is might be better. **

Okay, grab your trusty teaspoon measure and measure out 1 teaspoon of your 'something' and put it into your bottle.

Now, get water out of your aquarium (with something other than your powder filled bottle) and fill up your powdered filled bottle.*

Shake till dissolved.

Now, you've got something dissolved in some water. But you only want to put 1/4 teaspoon of something into your tank. Remember we put 1 teaspoon into the bottle and mixed it up. So.. if I take out 1/4 of the whole mess in the bottle, the mixed in 'something' will be taken out with it.

so.. pour 1/4 of the bottle contents into your tank. (that's one dose).

Wa-la! You are done. You just put 1/4 teaspoon of something into your tank!

And, you have 3 more doses left in your trusty bottle. Shake it up first before you use it next time.

Note: This works for other measurements...
if you want 1/3 of a teaspoon, then divide full your bottle up into 3 doses.
If you want 1/2 teaspoon, then your full bottle holds 2 doses.

If you get really creative, you could get one of those rubber maid clear plastic jugs, that have numbers on the side. I've got a 1 quart jug that has 32 divisions on it... so... you can see if you want 1/32 of a teaspoon, you just put your 1 teaspoon of 'something' into the jug, top it off with water, shake, and pour out 1 division mark on the jug.

The confusion in the other posts I've read comes about because people are trying to explain how to make more concentrated solutions. That works really well, it just sounds complicated. It's actually doing the same thing I outlined above, but with different proportions and fractions. -- okay I"m getting complicated again, so I'll stop. 

I hope this post helped clarify, what all those dry fertilizer solution dilutions and calculations were doing.







*You could use R/O, distilled or treated tap water instead of tank water.. but tank water is an already treated source that is safe for your tank.

** Too small a bottle won't hold enough water to dissolve your 'something'. If you run into this problem... just get a bigger bottle, pour the whole mess into the bigger bottle. You can add some water to the small bottle and slosh it around and keep putting it into the big bottle, until your small bottle is clean. Then top off your big bottle and proceed.


----------



## kvntran

Woefenxxx,

Excellent post!

There's some thing I need to confirm before starting my doses.

According to Chuck Gadd's calculator, the recommend level for potassium is 20ppm, and after I worked out all the numbers for my 30 gal tank, I got quite different doses from the examples given here.

1/4 tsp KNO3 gives me 7.53ppm Nitrate + 4.75ppm of potassium.

1/2 tsp K2S04 gives me 11.82ppm of Potassium

based on the 2 compounds above I should get 16.57ppm of K which is a bit less than 20ppm level but acceptable.

However, I notice that my K2SO4 is twice as much as KNO3 while all of your dosing samples here show that K2S04 is just a fraction of KNO3!

Am I doing something wrong?
Please help.

Regards,
Kevin


----------



## imeridian

You're just dosing extra K.  ...which is perfectly fine. 

Also, don't forget to include K from KH2PO4.

The K provided by the K2SO4 in the recommendations is a very small quantity (about 2ppm last I checked) and presumes that the bulk of the K comes from the KNO3 & KH2PO4. These dosing recommendations are not necessarily in line with the recommendations that Chuck Gadd provides, as it comes out to being about 10ppm K per combined macro dose in general (again per memory of last time I calculated these doses).

One can also dose Equilibrium instead of the K2SO4 weekly at water change, that'll provide some extra Mg, Ca, Fe, Mn, and of course K. I toss in an extra 1tsp of K2SO4 (~10ppm) in addition to the 1tsp of Equilibrium when I do my water changes for my 75 gallon. Some EI dosing plans use the Equilibrium and some use the 3X weekly K2SO4, there really isn't anything wrong with doing both either. 

Personally I wouldn't really bother with the 3X weekly K as listed here, the dose is too small to be worth the trouble -- just take care of it weekly. K2SO4 for solutions has a very annoying solubility limit too. That's just my personal opinion though. My extra K dosing was a bit of an unscientific experiment, inspired by my soft water and having done the math you're doing.


----------



## kvntran

indiboi said:


> You're just dosing extra K.  ...which is perfectly fine.
> 
> Also, don't forget to include K from KH2PO4.
> 
> The K provided by the K2SO4 in the recommendations is a very small quantity (about 2ppm last I checked) and presumes that the bulk of the K comes from the KNO3 & KH2PO4. These dosing recommendations are not necessarily in line with the recommendations that Chuck Gadd provides, as it comes out to being about 10ppm K per combined macro dose in general (again per memory of last time I calculated these doses).
> 
> One can also dose Equilibrium instead of the K2SO4 weekly at water change, that'll provide some extra Mg, Ca, Fe, Mn, and of course K. I toss in an extra 1tsp of K2SO4 (~10ppm) in addition to the 1tsp of Equilibrium when I do my water changes for my 75 gallon. Some EI dosing plans use the Equilibrium and some use the 3X weekly K2SO4, there really isn't anything wrong with doing both either.
> 
> Personally I wouldn't really bother with the 3X weekly K as listed here, the dose is too small to be worth the trouble -- just take care of it weekly. K2SO4 for solutions has a very annoying solubility limit too. That's just my personal opinion though. My extra K dosing was a bit of an unscientific experiment, inspired by my soft water and having done the math you're doing.


Thank you!
Yes, I know there's some K in KH2PO4 too, but it's too little because I only need 1/16 tsp of P.
I use Grumpy's GH booster to raise GH, and I'm not sure if it has extra K.
If too much K isn't a problem, I would just dump a bit extra K at water change like you do and forget about it for a week 
And if 10ppm of K from other compounds is enough then why bother to add K2SO4 at all?
Let's hope the OP will explain why he target K the way he does.

Kevin


----------



## imeridian

It's my understanding that the level at which there'd be too much K is quite high enough as to be almost impossible to get there without it being intentional. 

Grumpy's GH does have the K in it, though I vaguely recall Rex saying it isn't quite the same proportions as Equilibrium, but as far as I know they're interchangeable. 

The why bother was sort of my reaction to the very low dose here, and my inclination was to not bother at all with the K2SO4, at least it was for quite a very long time. I add the Equilibrium anyway for GH. My additions of extra K are only in the last couple of months, I don't think it makes all that much difference, but as I mentioned my 'testing' isn't exactly scientific and would only really apply to my tank anyway.


----------



## kvntran

indiboi said:


> It's my understanding that the level at which there'd be too much K is quite high enough as to be almost impossible to get there without it being intentional.
> 
> Grumpy's GH does have the K in it, though I vaguely recall Rex saying it isn't quite the same proportions as Equilibrium, but as far as I know they're interchangeable.
> 
> The why bother was sort of my reaction to the very low dose here, and my inclination was to not bother at all with the K2SO4, at least it was for quite a very long time. I add the Equilibrium anyway for GH. My additions of extra K are only in the last couple of months, I don't think it makes all that much difference, but as I mentioned my 'testing' isn't exactly scientific and would only really apply to my tank anyway.


So during the time that you omitted K2SO4, do you see any sign of deficiency? 
It seems that you know a lot about Seachem stuff, I happen to have a complete line of their products, the 2 liter bottles, I have been dosing according to Seachem recommendation but I still get clado. Do you happen to know the ratio between dry fert and seachem liquid? say, 20ppm of KNO3 = ?? ml of Seachem Nitrogen? and for other such as Seachem Phosphorus and Seachem Nitrogen?
Thanks.

Kevin


----------



## imeridian

I've never seen anything I'd classify as a K deficiency. I don't know the conversions for the Seachem ferts. There's a thread/sticky either here somewhere or over at APC that I think gives instructions on how to make them from dry ingredients. The Fertilator at APC also has the Seachem stuff so you can calculate ppm based on tank size like when using Chuck Gadd's calculator.


----------



## kvntran

Thanks indiboi,

The fertilator is great, exactly what I'm looking for. It seems that EI dosing is around 7 times stronger than what Seachem suggested! 
I will post my algae fighting result here. 

Kevin


----------



## Craigthor

Need a little advice about dry dosing my tank. Currently medium heavy planted/ soon to be heavily planted. CO2 drop checker with 4 dkh solution stays light green about 4 bps 24/7 as my water is like liquid rock as it comes from a limestone aquafier. My tank is a 75g with about 22-24g of water in my sump. I also have an auto water changer that drips about 1/4-1/2gph into my tank.What would be a good starting point for dosing. I have the ferts from Rex and was considering the PPS system as it doesn't require large water changes. Looking for advise and opinions on dosing.

Craig


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

Dosing is the easy part, it really depends on how
much light you have and what you're over all goal 
is.
PPS works for some I suppose and that is a personal 
preference, the plants do not care how much nutrients
are in the water, as long as it is enough, the light is the 
driving force and will determine growth rate as long as 
the plants have food.

The goal either way you dose is to feed the plants.

No light=no growth
low light=slow growth
medium light=medium to fast growth
high light=fast growth
All this of course depending on the type of plants
installed.

The first post in this thread is a recommendation
on dosing for a highlight tank around 3wpg.

If you want to use less light just use less nutrients
hence the +/- before ea. nutrient amount.

PPS is the same thing with just a little more leg work
by mixing everything and then some and counting drops.

You can do the exact same thing dry dosing and it is easier.
I am all for the ease of maintaining a tank, I would rather
enjoy the tank/prune or play with the wife and kids/grandkids 
than fiddle fart with counting ferts, which in reality is goofy.


Simply put the plants do not care so long as they have
food when the light is forced on them.
Whether you are dosing PPS=dose less more often or dry=scoop and toss
it is too simple, some PPS folk claim EI is excess and
cause problems, most of that is just user error.

You do not have to change 50% water every week
but it certainly does not hurt a thingy.

I have read of other folks dosing misery on both sides.
I have never tried PPS or felt the need, I have been
using this stickys dosing recommendation for years
any problem I ever had was my own stupidity or just
to busy to spend time with tanks which in turn taught
me to burn less light when I can't tend to my tanks,
problems solved.


----------



## Craigthor

Thanks, I run 240 watts of CF 2 8000k and 2 10000k 12 hours daily has a crappy reflector similar to the Coralife. Just got a Hagen GLO 2x 54 watt 6700k T5HO that I will be using as my daily burst for 4 hrs until I can find another GLO fixture or 2.

Craig


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

12 hours is really way to long for a highlight tank, 
for an easier to maintain tank, use you're highlight
for 6 hours, then 1~2wpg for the other 6hours
or less.

This is only a recommendation of course


----------



## ikuzo

help me with my EI dosing
i added to 1 liter of water :
150 grams KNO3
50 grams KH2PO4
50 grams K2SO4

i add this solution :
2 ml 3 times a week to a 10 gallon tank
4 ml 3 times a week to a 16 gallon tank

micros :
1 ml twice a week to the 10 gal
2 ml twice a week to the 16 gal

anoter solution of 100 grams of K2SO4 in 1 liter water:
8 ml to the 10 gallon at weekly water change
13 ml to 16 gallon weekly

i got bad results with algae, where did i do wrong? i don't have test kits and now i'm dosing half of the macros just twice a week and i got better results.

is my daily feeding habbit and considerable bio load caused these bad results?


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

Thats not EI, that would be closer to PPS.

Just looking at all of those numbers the plants 
may be hungry which brings me to ask the
question:

Light and C02 are equally important, where do
these fit into this equation?


----------



## ikuzo

ah i'm sorry, my 10 gallon (well planted) got 42 watts (6 hours) and 2 bottles of DIY CO2.

the 16 gallon iwagumi with hairgrass and dense of valls nana got 36 watts and 2 bps of pressurized CO2 system.

but i think i gave it a little too much, what do you mean by hungry plants?


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

I don't believe you are dosing enough.

2ml-10g and 4ml-16g mAcro is not much.

1ml Trace is certainly sparingly with the light you have.

That is what I mean by hungry plants.

If you force a lot of light on the plants and do not
feed them enough nutrients to grow you cause algae.

It is better to give them a little extra than not enough
nutrient.

Is C02 good?

How are you diffusing the gas?


----------



## ikuzo

wow i thought i have enough...

CO2 in the 16 gallon is good, 2 bps with inline reactor. the 10 gallon is a bit short, 1 bps with vortex reactor.

Wö£fëñxXx, i will increase this macro dosing and see later. thanks for your advice.


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

You also need to increase the mIcro dosing,
one without the other can still be a problem.

Keep us up to date on how it goes.


----------



## Church

Would anyone be opposed to editing the original post and adding the gram equivalents right after the teaspoon measurements? I just refuse to go out and buy a fractional teaspoon set if I've already got a perfectly good and accurate milligram scale, and surely I'm not the only one out there in the world who feels this way?


----------



## bigstick120

They are about 2-3 bucks at stores


----------



## Church

Poop. I just don't want to buy things I don't need if I can avoid it.


----------



## bigstick120

Sounds like you need them to me!


----------



## armyoffoo

tsp to gram conversion charts

http://foodgeeks.com/resources/conversioncharts.phtml


----------



## wmartino

Hello all new here.

Just a quick question. I just started EI dosing. Should one still use root tabs or does it matter. I would perfer not to use them but can.

Bill


----------



## armyoffoo

wmartino said:


> Hello all new here.
> 
> Just a quick question. I just started EI dosing. Should one still use root tabs or does it matter. I would perfer not to use them but can.
> 
> Bill


Yes, you should still use root tabs for plants such as crypts and swords which are heavy root feeders and won't take advantage of ferts in the water column as well as ferts taken in through their root systems.


----------



## Gatekeeper

armyoffoo said:


> Yes, you should still use root tabs for plants such as crypts and swords which are heavy root feeders and won't take advantage of ferts in the water column as well as ferts taken in through their root systems.



Thats a bit overstated. If you have a nutrient rich substrate already, why use root tabs? Root tabs in aquasoil, for instance, would be a complete waste.


----------



## wmartino

I am currently using Eco. Should I still use tabs?

Bill


----------



## plantbrain

I would.
Rich sediments, unlike sand, EC, Flourite, provide a back up of nutrients.

So if you slack off on dosing the water column, your plants still have a source of nutrients to draw from, as long as you have some nutrients somewhere all the time, you will do fine.

The rate of uptake and growth are obviously very critical to any routine dosing. Uptake is not = to growth all the time. Light drives growth ands thus CO2 and nutrient uptake, if there is high light, you will have higher CO2 demand, thus higher nutrient uptake and you'd expect to see higher rates of growth.

So a method that works well for a non CO2 slow rate of growth with low light might not be very good for a high light CO2 enriched tank.

Fish waste alone is likely plenty for a non CO2 tank in many cases.
So the real issue is matching the rates required for the rates of growth without too much limitation.

I've not found excess ranges(at least for plants) that are detrimental or induce algae when at stable higher levels within reasonable errors.
Few will dose over 10ppm of PO4 for example.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Gatekeeper

plantbrain said:


> I would.


Tom,
So your saying that even with EI dosing, which is dosing in excess already, should be supplemented with root tabs even in an enriched substrate?

I think the key to what your saying is, if you don't dose consistently, which IMO is the basis behind EI dosing (to keep the WC full of nutrients), then root tabs are your answer? 

Not sure if I can agree with that line of reasoning. I would use root tabs only if I have a new planting to ensure the new root growth has an ample supply of nutrients from the start, or if I am starting fresh with inert substrate.

Maybe you can elaborate a bit more on what your thinking is...


----------



## plantbrain

gmccreedy said:


> Tom,
> So your saying that even with EI dosing, which is dosing in excess already, should be supplemented with root tabs even in an enriched substrate?


Yep, but it' not really needed if you have lower light, lower plant biomass etc and certain species. I think "excess" is lousy word though used to describe non limiting growth.

Some suggest they do not desire non limiting growth, well that's fine, but 
using nutrients when we have other more obvious drivers of growth is far wiser.:thumbsup: 

Some folks just do not get this rather obvious approach.
I suppose a lack of knowledge about how and why a plant(or algae) grows is at the root of things, as well as very poor assumptions about CO2 and its measure and light.

Why all the fixation on nutrients is really sort strange to me.
It's only the last 3rd of the things that drive aquatic plant growth.
Light and CO2 are far more important, light is the easiest of all the para,meters we have to control and less light -= less CO2 deamnd, makiing that easier, and obviously, far more options for a source/s of non limiting nutrients as well as a wider range.

Basically this "D" range is extended:









Limiting say NO3 or PO4 will not extend all the other ranges, limiting light will since it is first in the series.

While plants might be limited for NO3, the algae clearly are non limited.
So light is is about the best simplest method to control algae and plant growth.

It's also, as many EI critics like to spout, wasteful to use more light than is needed and cost far more. Apparently that fact is convieniently overlooked when criticizing. Ignore your own advice and ignore basic plant science, okay, sure guys............

The key here with a rich sediment is that it acts synergistically with the water column, this relieves nutrient stress in the sediment, as well as the water column allowing more flexibility in your dosing.

Also, if you want to run things very lean in the water column for whatever reason, you can do so much better and also reduce light so the plants do not suffer. This is basic common sense rather than a pre determined agenda based conclusion. Folks seem to really get lost and then devolve into personal bickering rather than sticking to a basic goal and idea to get there.
What are the real risk when it comes to the reasons why you do a method?
Do I need to really be so careful, test all the time and if so, what parameters and how much?

I can place fear and loathing on CO2 and rightly so, far more than any single nutrients, after all, more folks get algae and kill their fish with CO2 than anything else.

Where are the critics there?
Or with light?

ADA adds "excess nutrients" to the sediments. You just cannot test them with the cheapo test kits and methods suggested on line in the hobby.



> I think the key to what your saying is, if you don't dose consistently, which IMO is the basis behind EI dosing (to keep the WC full of nutrients), then root tabs are your answer?


I am saying that we are human...........and will error and forget, at some time, some point. This allows us to get more from both locations/sources of nutrients and ultimately have a nicer more stable tank over time (at least where the nutrients are concerned, CO2/light are another story).
Also, I do not like to assume that all plants want water column ferts, I think both locations is wiser. Then the plants can chose and also do not have transport nutrients internally(less energy and time for nutrient transport).
This is the best of both worlds, too many get caught in this either or business or claim a plant prefers a certain location for nutrients.

Plants are opportunistic, they will take where they can get them.
Terrestrial plants are very similar also, most of the horticultural ornamental plants are fertigated, with virtually inert nutrients in the pots.
I'm talking about 20billion $ a year or more, 5 Billion or so in CA, USA alone.
I've been there, know the folks seen 5000 gallon KNO3 nutrient solution barrels.

They have other issues for root ferts, and cannot control temps like we can and other variables.Still, it's one reason why the plants you often get from nurseries are so nice.



> Not sure if I can agree with that line of reasoning. I would use root tabs only if I have a new planting to ensure the new root growth has an ample supply of nutrients from the start, or if I am starting fresh with inert substrate.
> 
> Maybe you can elaborate a bit more on what your thinking is...


I think if you look at human errors, plant growth, transport, getting more out each and redundancy in your approach to adding ferts, adding them in both location is very wise. However, it's not required because plants are opportunistic.

You can do very well with EI alone.
But I think most folks will agree adding ADA AS with water column ferts will yield better rates of growth and easier time with most species as well as more flex on the range of nutrients and routines folks might consider using.
Then there's the texture issue and root penetration for reduced source of ferts.

You really have nothing to lose by using both vs just the water column.
Old school thinking, say 10-30 years age added soil to the sediment, then nothing to the water column, sort of the reverse of EI.
ADA does this sort of...........but then still adds ferts to the water column daily and then does the large weekly water change.

So it's still somewhat old school, but they still leave the ire of fear with the water column. I one of the few folks that bothered to test toxicity and algae inducement, not merely plant growth.

So that way we can see and measure what ranges are good for plants, fish etc without death, without algae etc.

That's pretty useful near as I can tell, fear?
Not one bit.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## jesso

Could I use the day/week medicine containers and measure out each dry fert and put them in the appropriate day?

Reason I ask is because some dry ferts would be mixed together. Is this OK?

I have a scale so I could measure out what I needed day to day for a week.

KN03, KH2P04, K2S04 would be in one compartment.


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

jesso said:


> Could I use the day/week medicine containers and measure out each dry fert and put them in the appropriate day?
> 
> Reason I ask is because some dry ferts would be mixed together. Is this OK?
> 
> I have a scale so I could measure out what I needed day to day for a week.
> 
> KN03, KH2P04, K2S04 would be in one compartment.


Absolutely, whichever way is easiest for you.


----------



## Church

Forgive me if it's already been mentioned, because I couldn't find it, but would the EI method have to be adjusted in any way if just beginning a new tank setup? Does it have to be ramped up or anything like that? Or do I just begin my normal dosing on the day I plant my plants?

Also, all I'm planting is a carpet of glosso, in an iwagumi setup. Do I need to lower the fert amounts at all due to the fact that it wouldn't be what I would call "heavily planted?"

Thanks.


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

Ramped up? nah NPK-TE-Carbon.
I've always dosed from day one, no adjustments needed
unless you just want to play around with your ingredients
that is strictly your call.
The goal for me is to grow plants and that is what I do
and I do it by dosing/feeding the plants.

Being that this is a new tank I hope that you are adding 
some beneficial bacteria to aide the establishment of the
eco-system.
For a greater advantage add Excel to your dosing regime.


----------



## Church

Ok. Thanks. Yeah, I'm using the canister filter that was on my heavily planted, long-established 10 gallon. So I haven't even seen a mini cycle. Seems that the canister was nice and colonized.


----------



## NyteBlade

After reading through this thread, I just have a few questions...
First, it's mentioned iron/traces should be dosed and they're listed separately on the dosing page. 

Is CSM+B sufficient for iron in a medium to high light setup, or is some additional iron in the form of Flourish Iron/Iron Chelate needed?

It was suggested a bit earlier in the thread that root tabs be considered for healthier growth. Does anyone recommend trying root tabs in a substrate such as Eco Complete or Flourite, or do root tabs + EI dosing usually lead to major problems?


----------



## Left C

NyteBlade said:


> After reading through this thread, I just have a few questions...
> First, it's mentioned iron/traces should be dosed and they're listed separately on the dosing page.
> 
> Is CSM+B sufficient for iron in a medium to high light setup, or is some additional iron in the form of Flourish Iron/Iron Chelate needed?
> 
> It was suggested a bit earlier in the thread that root tabs be considered for healthier growth. Does anyone recommend trying root tabs in a substrate such as Eco Complete or Flourite, or do root tabs + EI dosing usually lead to major problems?


The following doesn't really answer you question, but I'd like to point out 3 different versions of EI.

This regimen adds extra iron plus potassium sulfate is added too: 
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/water-parameters/21944-_dosing-regimes_.html

This regimen does not add any potassium sulfate or extra iron:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...zing/15225-estimative-index-dosing-guide.html

This is the dosing regimen that I use. It removes the potassium sulfate and adds a GH Booster instead. I use Seachem Equilibrium for the GH Booster and Tropica's Plant Nutrition _liquid_ (TMG) for the trace elements. I dose Flourish Iron 2X a week.
http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/2819-ei-light-those-less-techy-folks.html


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

NyteBlade said:


> Is CSM+B sufficient for iron in a medium to high light setup, or is some additional iron in the form of Flourish Iron/Iron Chelate needed?


Yes CSM+B is sufficient with enough iron, if you feel 
you need a tad bit of iron, just dose more CSM+B.
On the other hand if you have a tank full of demanding 
plants under intense light adding iron whether it be Flourish
or 10% Chelate would be an advantage.
I am one of those who dose heavy so you will get various
opinions on the matter.




NyteBlade said:


> It was suggested a bit earlier in the thread that root tabs be considered for healthier growth. Does anyone recommend trying root tabs in a substrate such as Eco Complete or Flourite, or do root tabs + EI dosing usually lead to major problems?


I personally don't use root tabs, I have however tried them
just so I could see what effects it had seeing how I am giving 
advice on these particular subjects.
All plants will take in nutrients from the leaves and stem so 
a steady dosing regime into the water column yields excellent
results with no need for root tabs.
But using the tabs is OK too.
The overall plan of said individual, type of plants, amount of light
will also determine whether you should or shouldn't use them.
For instance, less light with swords and crypts and minimal
water column dosing, the tabs will be an important improvement
for plant nutrients.
Depends on the over all scenario and goal of the individual.


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

Left C said:


> This is the dosing regimen that I use. It removes the potassium sulfate and adds a GH Booster instead. I use Seachem Equilibrium for the GH Booster and Tropica's Plant Nutrition _liquid_ (TMG) for the trace elements. I dose Flourish Iron 2X a week.
> http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/2819-ei-light-those-less-techy-folks.html


GH booster is mostly K+ with a couple other small ingredients
correct? 

I too use Tropica Plant Nutrition along with Flourish
Comprehensive and CSM+B.

I have used CSM+B exclusively with excellent results,
it is very affordable, that is the main part I like about it.

Some weeks I use Tropica or Flouish after water change,
then CSM+B for the rest of the week.
It helps stretch the mIcros further/farther? that are more costly.

All in all, I really see no overwhelming results that indicate
one is actually better than the other. they are all good.


----------



## Left C

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> ... Some weeks I use Tropica or Flouish after water change, then CSM+B for the rest of the week.
> 
> It helps stretch the mIcros further/farther? that are more costly. ...


I really like this idea. :thumbsup:


----------



## FriedCheetos

My first post 

Wolfen, I could use some help doing some calculations,
Converting 1 tablespoon to 250ml H20, 
20 ml = 1/4 teaspoon of dry fertilizer. 
There are 12 - 1/4 teaspoons dissolved
250ml/12=20.83ml. 

I was reading that, and it seemed pretty easy, however..
Looking at your dosing table for 40-60 gals,
Tank's (2)
40~60gal
50%H20 change-weekly
+/-1/2Tsp-KN03 3x a week
+/-1/8Tsp-KH2P04 3x a week
+/-1/8Tsp-K2S04 3x a week
+/-10ml or 1/8Tsp-Trace 3x a week
+/-2-4ml-Fe/Iron 3x a week

I want to make a mixture that contains the KN03, the KH2P04 and the K2S04. Sticking with the ratio I would add a tablespoon of KN03, and 1/4 tablespoon each of KH2P04 to water(250 or 500 ml, I'm not sure if it would all dissolve in 250 ml)

I would like some help on the calculations on how many ml of water would be needed to dose the proper amount of each, and if I was on the right track.

Also, I assumed it was safe to mix these together to dose together, but I'd like to confirm that. It would be easier for me to dose liquid than measure out the dry ferts.

Thanks,
Chris

P.S. One more question:
Why did the PMDD guide on the krib call for such low amounts of dosing, while you call for such high amounts?

P.P.S. I just ordered a two light bulb Ice Cap fixture, with a 660 ballast, Ice Cap reflectors on each light, and 2 39W Planta T5H0 Bulbs.
Is this considered high light? I hear many different things. Is this too much light?
I have a 36" 50 Gallon tank.


----------



## plantbrain

FriedCheetos said:


> My first post
> 
> I want to make a mixture that contains the KN03, the KH2P04 and the K2S04. Sticking with the ratio I would add a tablespoon of KN03, and 1/4 tablespoon each of KH2P04 to water(250 or 500 ml, I'm not sure if it would all dissolve in 250 ml)


Use 500mls and dose @x the volume then. 
K2SO4 might not dissolve fully, I generally use GH booster, it's mostly K2SO4 and Ca and Mg, this takes care of 3 things at once, but I add it dry, generally after a water change only.

You get plenty of K+ from KNO3 and KH2PO4.
About 3-5X more relative to N.



> P.S. One more question:
> Why did the PMDD guide on the krib call for such low amounts of dosing, while you call for such high amounts?
> 
> P.P.S. I just ordered a two light bulb Ice Cap fixture, with a 660 ballast, Ice Cap reflectors on each light, and 2 39W Planta T5H0 Bulbs.
> Is this considered high light? I hear many different things. Is this too much light?
> I have a 36" 50 Gallon tank.


1# it was 1995-1996 when PMDD was developed to combat the high cost of Dupla fertilizers.

Folks could only manage to add about 1.5 to 2 watts a gallon of light and it was most all T12 light bulbs and fairly deep tanks. Plants we kept and have available where generally easier etc, but the fact of the matter was the leaner amounts where based not on testing over the entire range or using a control in a test, rather.... fear of algae.

With such low light, there's much less need for higher levels of nutrients to still have a decent measure of success. Later, these rates where increased as better plant health and growth rates and obvious lack of algae proved the theory without merit.

The dosing routine and basic focus on plant health with respect to macro and micro nutrients however is very true.

EI is derived from this, even the dilution and water change parts can be found within it. However, the removal of test kits, the PO4 dosing part was added.

Dosing PO4 was a revelation at the time, now somewhat common place.
I showed along with Steve Dixon that PO4 limitation does NOT reduce algae, it can however reduce O2 production from plants, less pearling, reduced uptake of NO3, Reduced CO2 consumption etc.

When you dosed PO4 to PMDD, the results where very dramatic in increased growth rates. So the theory as to why could not be correct. It's a well linked article and site, but it's quite dated today.

When you add PO4 and provide non limiting nutrients to the plants, you have dramatic growth that is limited only by CO2 and light.

This is a standard control(non limiting nutrients, say like a modified Hoagland's solution in hydroponics) for any type of plant growth study. Then you provide non limiting CO2 and the variable used to control growth rate is light.

Light is the easiest, most efficient, most stable parameter(compare light to testing to CO2 or NO3) we can chose to modify rates of growth and get the most out of every watt of electricity.

It's where growth starts and controls every aspect down stream from there.

I wrote a hybrid article around 1996-1997 with Steve that addressed a modified PMDD routine:

http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/2386-old-version-1996-1997-list-levels-parameters.html

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## FriedCheetos

Thanks for the reply plantbrain.

Just the same question again,
Could you help me do the math on dissolving the KN03, the KH2P04 and the K2S04?

As I said previously, the ratio is the same if I dissolve a tablespoon of KN03, and 1/4 tablespoon each of KH2P04 and K2S04 in 500ml of water. (A single mixture with each of those chemicals in it.)

What I am asking is, for some help on the calculations of how many ml I would have to dose of that mixture to get the required amount of KN03, KH2P04 and K2S04 into my tank based on the 40-60 gallon tank values.


Also - have you ever used/know anything about IceCap lighting? Would it be too much do you think? 2x39w 36" lights with individual ice cap reflectors and over driven with an ice cap 660 ballast.

Thanks,
Chris


----------



## plantbrain

Math is simple, pick/choose the total amount of time you want to dose, say 14 days.

So say you add 1/2 teaspoon of KNO3 to each dose for a 3x a week dosing routine.

You want to switch to a daily liquid:

500mls/14 doses.

35 mls daily.

Easy.
Want to extend things out longer, change the volumes, amounts etc to suit.
Some folks make 2 liters at a time, then dose for months, some weekly etc.

You just add it to the water and then divide the total volume by the days/doses done.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

Thanks Tom, roud: 

I get this question frequently, I believe I will amalgamate 
and merge into the dosing scheme if that's copacetic.


----------



## FriedCheetos

Plantbrain, I think understand what you are saying, but I don't if you did answer my question.

I think you are just telling me how to dose KN03 when I mix it with water. That's easy and was explained in the first post...HOWEVER, my problem is I am putting KN03, KH2P04 and K2S04 all together, in one bottle with water.

Say I put a tablespoon of KN03, and 1/4 tablespoon each of KH2P04 and K2S04 in 500ml of water.

I want to know how much of that mixture I would need to add in order to get a total of 1/2 tsp of KN03, 1/8 tsp of KH2P04 and an 1/8 tsp of K2S04.

I'm so ignorant..If you have answered this question I didn't pick up, so could you please explain more fully?


----------



## mpodolan

Well, 1Tbs is equal to 3tsp. So, this would give you six 1/2tsp doses of KNO3 in your solution. Thus, you would dose 1/6 of the 500ml each time to dose the 1/2tsp you desire. This would be 83.3ml for each dose. 

Since you will be getting 6 doses out of this theoretical solution, you would need 6 doses of 1/8tsp of both KH2PO4 and K2SO4 in this solution as well. This would be 6/8 or 3/4 or 0.75tsp of each added to the 500ml solution. 

Thus, each 83.3ml dose would give you 1/2tsp of KNO3 and 1/8tsp each of KH2PO4 and K2SO4. 

I believe this math is correct, but I am no math whiz. Someone correct me if I made a mistake here. I dose each separately, so this was just me trying to use simple math to answer your question.


----------



## plantbrain

FriedCheetos said:


> Plantbrain, I think understand what you are saying, but I don't if you did answer my question.
> 
> I think you are just telling me how to dose KN03 when I mix it with water. That's easy and was explained in the first post...HOWEVER, my problem is I am putting KN03, KH2P04 and K2S04 all together, in one bottle with water.
> 
> Say I put a tablespoon of KN03, and 1/4 tablespoon each of KH2P04 and K2S04 in 500ml of water.
> 
> I want to know how much of that mixture I would need to add in order to get a total of 1/2 tsp of KN03, 1/8 tsp of KH2P04 and an 1/8 tsp of K2S04.
> 
> I'm so ignorant..If you have answered this question I didn't pick up, so could you please explain more fully?


How long do you want to dose solution to last for?

You have a 50 gal tank, so the most NO3 you'd need would be about 1.5 teaspoon per week of KNO3.

Let's say you want a 4 week solution:
Add 1.5 tsp X 4 weeks= 6 tsp KNO3.

Next do the KH2PO4.

Say 3/8th teaspoon, not quite a 1/2 per week, X 4 weeks = 1.5 tsp of KH2PO4.

Don;'t bother with the K2SO4, just add some after the water change, it's tougher to dissolve.

So for a 4 week supply, add 6 tsp of KNO3, 1.5 tsp of KH2PO4.
Add that to do 500mls of water.

Dose 500mls/28 days = mls per day

18mls per day.

Because the amounts folks want to make up as a batch are arbitrary, folks get confused, so just pick a time, 4 weeks, or base the dosing on the largest available contain, say 1 gallon etc.

Add the water, then make it as concentrated as you'd like.
You can always use the week dry dosing + add this to a some amount of water(enough to dissolve these 2 salts) and simply divide the solution by days till they are all gone.

You are making this sooo much harder than it is.
Once you get the concept however, it will make a lot more sense.

Right now you are still scratching yer head I'd say:icon_redf 
This is why the web can confuse you, but in person, this is really really easy to show and explain. Just use the dry dose amounts as a crutch and add them to water to make a solution of liquid ferts.

From there you simply divide by the amount of days the dry ferts would typically last and dose the appropriate mls to use it up by that final day.

This is not complicated, don't make it so.:redface: 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## FriedCheetos

I think I get it, thanks alot for the explanation. Now that I understand it, it seems that you did answer the question above the first time, I just didn't understand the explanation. I figured the amount to dose would be higher because I would have more in, but it would just be more concentrated.

Thanks alot for the help! 

So I should go against Wolfen's regime and dose K2S04 only after water changes? How much should I dose?


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

You can dose it once a week or 3x a week, its optional.
Whether its GH booster or K2S04.
I should edit the sticky to clarify that, it seems to be 
an issue at times.


----------



## plantbrain

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> You can dose it once a week or 3x a week, its optional.
> Whether its GH booster or K2S04.
> I should edit the sticky to clarify that, it seems to be
> an issue at times.


Well, how concentrated the liquid is is arbitrary and how much volume you make etc, how long do you want it to last etc.

I think this lack of definite choice makes it tough for a new person.
So Vendors or some method suggest 500mls and add X amounts of KH2PO4 and KNO3 and suddenly it's their "secret formula", like it's really going to make that much difference.

How you chose to make it is really up to you, you can go with pre made, or pre assumed volumes, tsps etc. But we all vary it later and make our own stuff.

K2SO4 is tough to dissolve but KCL is not, so that can be used, eg ADA and SeaChem use this for their K+ source for this reason.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## FriedCheetos

Ah, I wish I could talk to you guys forever. There are so many questions I would have and so many conversations I would love to have.

There aren't many planted tank enthusiasts, except for a club that I'm going to check out the next meeting .

I'm going to redesign my aquarium but I need many new plants. What do you guys recommend, and where should I get them?

-Chris

EDIT:
Forgot to say, thanks for all the help with the dosing


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

Well, talk this is the place to do it. 


Plant life need's nutrient's in the form of NPK-Trace-Carbon
and 02, some folks forget that last one.
Light is the source of life, how you use it will determine 
their need for nutrient's.

The tank is the home they live in,. their eco-system. The 
filter is the governor, it colonizes the environment with
beneficial and biological bacteria that keeps the system
alive and active.

When the plants are happy and active they are busy consuming
nutrient's from the water column, purifying it so to speak. the 
amount of light determines the rate of growth, and the rate of 
growth determines amount of nutrient's needed to meet the 
demands of the light forcing it to grow.
If one or more nutrient is not met at time of the demand growth is
distorted disrupting the balance.

The biological bacteria/filter media stabilizes the environment
for the plants to have a place to thrive.

Nutrient's-mAcro & mIcro.
Carbon
Oxygen

Keep the plant's happy+
Keep the bacteria happy=

Enjoyable tanks.


----------



## FriedCheetos

That sounds very artistic in a sense.

Something you would see in a movie when one is concentrating on creating a beautiful aquarium 

Very nicely said, and I will be saving that as a quote on my computer. I hope you do not mind


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

Not sure about artistic but thanks though, you may 
use it if you want, its public. :icon_cool


----------



## rekles75

This has helped me so much.


----------



## Saraja87

I'm debating between premade liquid dosing and dry fert dosing, but I don't want to make it too complicated in case someone has to dose my tanks for me while I'm out of town. I'd probably buy the Rex combo pack If i go the dry route which has:
1 lb KNO3
1 lb K2SO4
½ lb Plantex CSM+B
½ KH2PO4

I have a 110 but it's not super heavily planted, so I was thinking of following the 60-80 gallon chart. If this isn't a good idea, how much should I be dosing?

I was hoping to dose about 3 times a week so it would have to be more concentrated but I could do it more frequently since people don't seem to like dosing micros and macros together. 

How much would you guys recommend dosing of each and how often? Which can be safely mixed and how much of each should I add? I'd like to make a solution that will last 4 weeks but I don't know if that's possible since I'd prefer to dose 3x weekly and the powder might not dissolve. I also have distilled water (which is better for making ferts?) and could probably get a hold of some 250ml bottles or one larger if needed.


----------



## macclellan

Saraja87 said:


> I was hoping to dose about 3 times a week so it would have to be more concentrated.
> 
> How much would you guys recommend dosing of each and how often?


Get a calculator and reread this thread's first post. Don't worry too much about the micro/macro "mixing" thing.


----------



## rich815

Saraja87 said:


> I'm debating between premade liquid dosing and dry fert dosing, but I don't want to make it too complicated in case someone has to dose my tanks for me while I'm out of town. I'd probably buy the Rex combo pack If i go the dry route which has:
> 1 lb KNO3
> 1 lb K2SO4
> ½ lb Plantex CSM+B
> ½ KH2PO4
> 
> I have a 110 but it's not super heavily planted, so I was thinking of following the 60-80 gallon chart. If this isn't a good idea, how much should I be dosing?
> 
> I was hoping to dose about 3 times a week so it would have to be more concentrated but I could do it more frequently since people don't seem to like dosing micros and macros together.
> 
> How much would you guys recommend dosing of each and how often? Which can be safely mixed and how much of each should I add? I'd like to make a solution that will last 4 weeks but I don't know if that's possible since I'd prefer to dose 3x weekly and the powder might not dissolve. I also have distilled water (which is better for making ferts?) and could probably get a hold of some 250ml bottles or one larger if needed.


Change your water on Sunday and dose your macros and perhaps some GH booster. Then on Monday your micros, then Tuesday your macros, etc. With Saturday being a day of no dosing and just enjoying your tank.

Here's what I do for my 72 gal:

Sunday: 50% water change, then dose 1 t. GH Booster, 3/4 t. KNO3, 1/4 t. KH2PO4
Monday: 1/4 t. CSM+B
Tuesday: 3/4 t. KNO3, 1/4 t. KH2PO4
Wednesday: 1/4 t. CSM+B
Thursday: 3/4 t. KNO3, 1/4 t. KH2PO4
Friday: 1/4 t. CSM+B

Get one of those vitamin pill dosing minders with each day of the week having a letter on top. Something like this:

http://pics.drugstore.com/prodimg/55334/200.jpg

So, after my water change and dosing of my macros for that day I use one of those weekly pill minders, open up the Monday, Wednesday and Friday slots and put in 1/4 t. CSM+B in each day and snap them closed, then the Tuesday and Thursday slots and put in 3/4 t. KNO3, 1/4 t. KH2PO4 in each day and snap them closed, with Saturday having nothing. Now the week is set.

If I go out of town or vacation just give that to the person watching your tank and have them snap open the day of the week on the right day and dump it into the tank. Simple.

And for yourself nothing could be more simple either. Just set up the weekly pill minder after your water change as you have the macros out for their dose for that day. Takes maybe 2 minutes to set the whole week up. Then on your way out the door for work every day, open that day's slot and dump it in. 

3x a week overall may sound easier but to be honest sometimes you find yourself some mornings trying to remember if you dosed yesterday or the day before. This makes it a daily habit but such a short and easy one it's simplier than brushing your teeth. Plus with the pill minder you always remind yourself if you did it already or still need to....

I used to make up a CSM+B solution but it would sometimes grow fuzzy mildew balls in the solution, even if I kept it in the fridge....

By the way, you may have noticed no dosing of K2SO4. Many say you get enough K from the other macros. But if you want you can also set up to add 1/4 t. of K2SO4 to the macro days with no harm done.


----------



## Saraja87

That is an Awesome idea! I measure things out all day in the lab, but asking my family to measure a teaspoon of powder usually results in a fit. I will definitely use the pill pack idea.


----------



## balik

Well , looks like this thread has : Amazed , confused and encouraged me all at the same time , in order to start EI dosing my new 75G tank.

I have Flourite (Top layer), Turface (inert- Middle Layer) and Laterite (bottom layer)...how will that effect the Trace and IRON Dosing ? 

Planning to use Pressurized CO2.


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

Not much, you will still want to dose the water column
as prescribed if you plan on using more than 2wpg of
light.
If using low/r light and growing crypts then the water
column dosing will be much less.


----------



## macclellan

Hey Wolfy,
I swear K2SO4 used to be in the Dosing sticky and now GH booster is in - why the switch? I didn't see it discussed anywhere in the thread. Is it because of the added iron and calcium? 

I'm hesitant to add Magnesium, water is plenty hard here in e.TN already. It's just a bit I suppose, but still. Besides, there's K in KN03 and KH2P04 already. Any opinion on skipping K2SO4 and GH boost altogether. I tend to dose a bit on the + side for KN03 and KH2PO4 already? I'm almost out of K2SO4 and ain't got no Boosta (except MgSO4·7H2O for the Tangs and Mbuna).


----------



## jcardona1

yeah what happened with the K2SO4?!?! im a noob and i thought i had this all down then it all changed. now im confuzzled again!!!! can somebody help me out here. why the change! is K2SO4 still ok to use cause i just ordered some yesterday


----------



## mpodolan

Yes, you can still use K2SO4. I believe they just made the change because the GH Booster also contains the K2SO4. Some folks don't dose either, though, as the KNO3 and KH2PO4 add it in as well. I dose the K2SO4, mainly because I started that way and got used to it, and it can't hurt to add it in if you have it


----------



## jcardona1

cool, thanks for the info. i guess i need to test my tap water to see if ill need a gh booster. so what is this "gh booster"? something available everywhere or somethign that is mixed up? sorry is this was mentioned somewhere in this thread, i didnt catch it


----------



## mpodolan

Rex and Orlando both sell it. It's a mixture that contains Calcium, Magnesium, Potassium, Iron and Manganese, according to Rex's site.


----------



## jcardona1

cool just saw it there. 2lb for $7, not bad. 

question though. Rex's site says that a gh of 3~15 degrees is good. if my gh is within that level, can i assume i dont need gh booster and can just stick with the K2SO4? 

is there any benefit to using the gh booster as opposed to the K2SO4 if my gh levels are ok?


----------



## mpodolan

I wouldn't worry about using the Booster in your case. I have some, but I only use it occasionally when I need a little extra (if I'm using RO water)


----------



## NyteBlade

Just a quick question here after crunching some numbers. Based on the numbers provided in the beginning of this thread, the target numbers are something like this as follows...

8 ppm of NO3 3x a week
2.25 ppm of P 3x a week
6 ppm of K 3x a week from above sources + optional GH Booster/K2SO4
.04 ppm of Fe 3x a week included with traces
.1-.2 ppm additional Fe as needed.

Total on a weekly basis would be:
24 ppm NO3
6.75 PPM
18 ppm of K
.12 ppm of Fe
Optional: Additional K/Fe.

Is something like that correct? Obviously these numbers might need to be tweaked based on individual experiences


----------



## Gatekeeper

The P seems a bit high to me, but from an EI stand point, looks fine.


----------



## NyteBlade

gmccreedy said:


> The P seems a bit high to me, but from an EI stand point, looks fine.


Yeah, P seemed a little high.
The front page says 1/16 tsp. of P in a 20-40 gallon tank. In a 30 gallon tank, I think that's right around 2 ppm per dose, or 6 ppm per week. It seemed a little high to me too. Not too sure if my calculation is off or EI just calls for that much phosphate.


----------



## plantbrain

Why is that "high"?
What do folks mean when they say this?
Bad for fish?
Bad for algae?

Do folks really, honestly expect that algae will be worse at say 2ppm vs say 4ppm of PO4 in the most bioavilable form?
Is 2 ppm somehow limiting to algae whereas 4ppm might not be?

Simple question based on limiting nutrients ands risk.

Why do folks get bothered by this notion?

I've never really understood this, once you hit *non limiting values *for plants, you are way beyond non limiting values for every known species of algae in Freshwater.

Adding more of a non limiting nutrient will NOT increase algae growth no matter what you do.

Perhaps with respect to NO3 at some point, but that's well studied and quite high, and with respect to O2 and CO2, two things that are very poorly measured by virtually every plant aquarist, these are far more deterimental when outside their ranges to fish than NO3 ever can be, and NH4 is another one folks have troubles measuring well.

Still, for the things that folks do add, there is simply no reasonable risk. If you really feel there is, you can do large % water changes, say 60-7% or do 2 x 50% weekly and keep things really within a very tight range, less estimation and more accuracy. You can also dose every other day all the ferts right after a 50% water change every other day as well.

Really up to you and your own fears, however, the risk that some seem to claim is unfounded. Folks kill fish and get algae all the time, and those are foklks that do not even keep plants nor add ferts.

Point is, folks make mistakes and assumptions about things, are careless etc, do not take better care of their tank than they should many times, we all do this at some point. 

So what to do?
Find some routine that's easy for you personally to do and keep up on and also have a reasonable goal for the amount of effort you are willing to put into this hobby.

If you hate pruning, water changes, testing etc, then a non CO2 plant tank is ideal. Less pruning but still nice growth rates to do some gardening etc, then perhaps CO2/Excel and low light is ideal for you. Intensive gardening: higher light and lots of pruning. and various grades in between.

Some feel they can have high light, little plant growth, no water changes and it should be easy to balance and add lots of fish.

You get some trade offs, some you do not.
I think folks should consider the trade offs and what their own goals are, then from that point, decide on a light level and whether they want CO2/Excel etc then..........find an appropriate dosing routine...........

Some start with the dosing part and stick to it no matter what light/CO2 level etc. I don't do that nor tell anyone that either. I'd encourage you and anyone to try no less than 3-4 methods over the years with planted tanks, certainly CO2, Excel and non CO2 methods. High vs low light etc, high vs low current, CO2 mist vs dissolving it all and so on.........

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Gatekeeper

Sorry Tom. Just my own personal "nontested" experience that I relayed.

I digress to your expertise.


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

macclellan said:


> Hey Wolfy,
> I swear K2SO4 used to be in the Dosing sticky and now GH booster is in - why the switch? I didn't see it discussed anywhere in the thread. Is it because of the added iron and calcium?
> 
> I'm hesitant to add Magnesium, water is plenty hard here in e.TN already. It's just a bit I suppose, but still. Besides, there's K in KN03 and KH2P04 already. Any opinion on skipping K2SO4 and GH boost altogether. I tend to dose a bit on the + side for KN03 and KH2PO4 already? I'm almost out of K2SO4 and ain't got no Boosta (except MgSO4·7H2O for the Tangs and Mbuna).


Hey mac,
It did use to be there until last week, I changed it because to some 
it appeared to be a contradiction, with one site saying one thing than 
the other, and the Boosta is about 50% K+ with the other half being
Ca, Mg.
I don't believe all boosta's are created equal, grumpys-Rex booster
has the added iron, I don't think Tom's has iron.
If everything was working for you then that's great, if you are going
to make another fert purchase, you could try the boosta or make some
minus the Mg.
Water heavy in Mg is a laxative, the misses wanted to go to TN a 
couple years ago, so I confirmed the command and we went, after the long
walk to the base of Ruby Falls the guide was telling all about the place
and strictly advised people if they were thirsty, you should have brought
something, if you drink the water there in the falls it had a heavy Mg
count, then he informed the rest what would happen if they/someone
had a drink...

Haha


----------



## NyteBlade

Thanks for the input Tom. I do see your point. I was under the impression that adding too much Phosphate in relation to other nutrients may create some sort of problem or imbalance and lead to algae growth as there would be nutrients that weren't being taken up and used by plants. 

I guess I wasn't thinking things through as usually with EI, there's more nutrients in the water then the plants need, as I assume providing for the exact rate of uptake would be a very complicated process.

I guess a better way to word what I was saying earlier was that the recommendations for phosphate on the first page seemed high in the sense that the recommended amount could be safely lowered based on Phosphate uptake while still following the principals of EI. I've honestly never kept tabs though on how much phosphate an average tank uses or needs, so the recommendation could very well be spot on.


----------



## schwarkie

After reviewing the chart that was attached, I do not have a drop checker at the moment. I am planning on buying one soon. The CO2 chart says if you have a higher PH such as 7.6 which I have, then does your KH need to be high to get the correct amount of CO2? I know high KH is not good, so that is why I am asking. Its a little confusing. Thanks for the help!


----------



## jaidexl

What is your KH? Compare that to your pH and find your tank's CO2 ppm on the graph.


----------



## rich815

jaidexl said:


> What is your KH? Compare that to your pH and find your tank's CO2 ppm on the graph.


From what I've read many places this is a very inaccurate way unless you can be certain no other elements are affecting the KH and pH readings.


----------



## jaidexl

Yes a drop checker is much more accurate since it's isolated form the acids and unknowns in the tank water. The chart is still useful otherwise, IMO.


----------



## rich815

jaidexl said:


> Yes a drop checker is much more accurate since it's isolated form the acids and unknowns in the tank water. The chart is still useful otherwise, IMO.


I sort of disagree on it's usefulness at all. I'm no expert but again from reading on this forum and others it seems things like wood in the tank and it's tannins can affect pH, as can any changes your local water company may have done without your knowledge, like maybe increase the phosphates. Both will affect your pH level resulting directly in a change on your chart where it lies with relation to your KH giving you a different reading even though your CO2 levels really did not change at all. No?


----------



## jaidexl

It's useful as long as you take those things into account and are aware of them, as well as using the 24 hour sit out method. The degree of pH change when gassing up is the real teller.


----------



## rich815

jaidexl said:


> It's useful as long as you take those things into account and are aware of them, as well as using the 24 hour sit out method. The degree of pH change when gassing up is the real teller.


Well, I'd agree with that if I could be sure what I'm being "aware" of and how to take it into account. That fairly new piece of driftwood I put in a couple weeks ago: have the tannins finished leaching out yet? If not how much is still leaching in and how much is that affecting my pH? Here in the San Francisco bay area depending on the time of year my water can be coming from the Sierra snow pack melt-off, a local reservoir or even be mixed slightly with delta river water that may or may not be slightly brackish, or a combination of all three. I do 50% water changes each week, how do I know every week whether the water source or how the water company may be tweaking the water might be affecting my pH as well? I think in theory the pH and KH chart works but again only if you are sure that nothing else is affecting your pH.


----------



## jaidexl

Just use a DC or the 24 hour method if you're so unsure about it. Do you know how many degrees your pH drops after injecting CO2? There's your answer.

That said, I use a DC, so you don't have to talk me out of using the chart or anything, I was just clearing things up for ol boy back there. I've read this argument quite a few times and I am always on the same side of the fence. 

Do you use liquid reagents? They're every bit as inaccurate as the chart, does that mean you throw them in the trash?

I grew too many killer plants back when using the chart to be a chart-hater. Use it or lose it. :icon_wink


----------



## rich815

jaidexl said:


> Just use a DC or the 24 hour method if you're so unsure about it. Do you know how many degrees your pH drops after injecting CO2? There's your answer.
> 
> That said, I use a DC, so you don't have to talk me out of using the chart or anything, I was just clearing things up for ol boy back there. I've read this argument quite a few times and I am always on the same side of the fence.
> 
> Do you use liquid reagents? They're every bit as inaccurate as the chart, does that mean you throw them in the trash?
> 
> I grew too many killer plants back when using the chart to be a chart-hater. Use it or lose it. :icon_wink


That all makes good sense. And yes, I used the chart for a while too and it seemed to help. Better than nothing I guess. But now I use a drop checker ever since I read about someone who used the chart thinking they were at 24ppm of CO2 but then used a more sophisticated method and found they were actually only at about 5ppm of CO2 and thus had likely found why they had serious algae issues ("...but my CO2 is high enough according to the chart!")

It was reading that and this link below that pretty had me tossing the chart and going the DC from now on:

http://www.barrreport.com/articles/2661-drop-checkers-co2-indicators-why-how.html


----------



## jaidexl

I never relied solely on what the chart was telling me, just a reference to add to the arsenal. Better than nothing for sure, but a DC is the only way to go IMO, especially for ease of use aside from accuracy. I would always crank the CO2 up more and watch the fish.


----------



## schwarkie

My KH is low at like 3 or 4, and I have read that is a good level. My CO2 is low right now since I have black beard algae appearing on the plants. I am planning on making another 2 L bottle of CO2 soon, so that should help. Thanks for the help!


----------



## Guerillah

I have a 120 gallon 4x2x2 tank that I am going to be moderate-high planting. I have 216W T5 HO 6700K light with a mix of half 3m color quartz t-grade and black flourite. I also have pressurized co2 with ph controller. My ph is 8.1 from tap, 90ppm KH. Most of this is probably useless but thought I would throw it out there.

I'm using Chuck's calculator for dosing and its giving me totally different target requirements then those in this sticky. Here are the numbers i'm getting.. Seems the KNO3 matches, but KH2PO4 is way off. What would you guys suggest my regime be?

*Dosing Regime sticky*
100 - 125 Gallon Aquarium 
+/- 1 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- ½ tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- ½ tsp (30ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change

*Chucks Calculator*
120 gallon Aquarium
1.5 tsp KN03 3x a week = 21.48PPM total, TARGET 20PPM
.5 tsp KH2PO4 3x a week = 11.07PPM total, TARGET 1PPM


----------



## plantbrain

You can adjust these to suit any target:thumbsup:
There is no hard fast rule. Plants mostly just need non limiting conditions for CO2/nutrients.

Nor is some static ppm level a goal either. Just a general range.
Double the KH2PO4 if you want 2ppm. 

Light is the thing best used to control rates of growth.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## brohawk

Your KN03 figure is for K, not N. 1.5 tsp shows N @ 34.03 ppm. The K target level (and others) on Chuck's calculator seem to me to be wrong btw. Here are target levels:

Nitrate (NO3) 20ppm per week
Potassium (K) 30ppm per week
Phosphate (PO4) 3ppm per week
Magnesium (Mg) 10ppm per week
Iron (Fe) 0.5ppm per week

Use a 1/4 tsp x 3 of KH2PO4 to get 1ppm P.

Read this.


----------



## Guerillah

Okay thanks for the helps guys, I will read that link.


----------



## number1sixerfan

OK, I am going to be dosing a 72g tank. So the EI regimine would be:

60 – 80 Gallon Aquariums
+/- 3/4 tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- 3/16 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- 1 tsp K2S04 once a week (water change only)
+/- ¼ tsp (15ml) Trace 3x a week
50% weekly water change

I have two 1000ml bottles, that I want to fill at 500ml(so the same solution isn't in there for months before refilling). I'm not sure what amounts to add to 500ml of water to get the right concentration needed, I have a MAC I can't download the dosing calculator. Any help is appreciated.

Also, I can mix the KNo3 and KH2p04 right? The trace is the only one that needs to be mixed seperate, and the K2s04 only added after a water change because of dissolubility.


----------



## Hoppy

In my experience the best way to make a solution of nutrients is to start by figuring how much of the solution you want to use for one dose. If the bottle cap holds 5 ml, for example, and you want to dose a capfull at a time, just figure out how many capfulls will be in the newly mixed bottle - in your case, that would be 500 divided by 5 or 100 capfulls, which would be 100 doses. Now add 100X the amount of dry fertilizer listed for a dose to the bottle, for both the KNO3 (100 X 3/4 tsp) and KH2PO4 (100 X 3/16 tsp). Add 500 ml of water, shake it up, and you have a bottle of 100 doses of macros. Be careful in figuring this out - remember water won't dissolve an unlimited amount of anything. You have to make the dosage size big enough to dissolve the fertilizers needed for one dose. You can do a little experimenting to determine that - put 3/4 tsp of KNO3 in a container, add 5 ml of water and see if it all dissolves. If it doesn't, then add another 5 ml of water and try again, etc. until you figure out what the dose size has to be. It might well be as much as 25 ml for that much fertilizer.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Thanks Hoppy for that explanation, I think I have decided to go with just adding it to the tank. It seems pretty convenient so far, we will have to see how it goes.

I have learned quickly that I need to cut back on the EI dosing regime since I have adult discus in my show tank. I only feed them three times a day, but I don't have any scavengers to get the food they miss(they are the only ones in the tank until I finish ordering the others). This was fine until I started dosing. I came home the other day to an algae bloom, which I have never experienced in an established tank.

I will dose half of the recommended NPK for my sized tank. Should I do the same for plantex? This really is all guesswork since testing is so inaccurate. My double drop checker from greenleaf shows that I have adequate CO2 in my tank during the day. I cut it off at night for the sake of my discus. I have about 35 pots of hairgrass in the tank, and about 25 or so fast growing stem with 216w T5 on a 72g tank. Just trying to give you all an adequate picture here.


----------



## rich815

number1sixerfan said:


> Thanks Hoppy for that explanation, I think I have decided to go with just adding it to the tank. It seems pretty convenient so far, we will have to see how it goes.
> 
> I have learned quickly that I need to cut back on the EI dosing regime since I have adult discus in my show tank. I only feed them three times a day, but I don't have any scavengers to get the food they miss(they are the only ones in the tank until I finish ordering the others). This was fine until I started dosing. I came home the other day to an algae bloom, which I have never experienced in an established tank.
> 
> I will dose half of the recommended NPK for my sized tank. Should I do the same for plantex? This really is all guesswork since testing is so inaccurate. My double drop checker from greenleaf shows that I have adequate CO2 in my tank during the day. I cut it off at night for the sake of my discus. I have about 35 pots of hairgrass in the tank, and about 25 or so fast growing stem with 216w T5 on a 72g tank. Just trying to give you all an adequate picture here.


So you are assuming you had an algae bloom because of too much nutrients?


----------



## number1sixerfan

rich815 said:


> So you are assuming you had an algae bloom because of too much nutrients?


Well, I can't say for sure but I can't see why else one would occur in an established tank.

I had been dosing for two days and the bloom didn't happen until I dosed Plantex. But when I dosed nitrates, my discus definitely didn't take to it well. Bars became dark, breathing heavier etc. So I will have to adjust everything as I go along, it's just a learning process.

Things would be a lot easier if test kits were accurate enough to trust. I use to use them frequently until research here showed that even the best commercial ones aren't so accurate. So I am going by the reactions of my plants and fish to kind of tell me what's going on.


----------



## Hoppy

When you feed fish three times a day, that big mass of food gets processed by the fish and reappears converted to desirable nutrients, plus undesirable ammonia. The ammonia can be the cause of an algae attack. And the desirable nutrients can be a good reason to dose smaller doses of fertilizers. As far as I know, only the ammonia can be a cause for an algae problem, not the extra desirable nutrients.


----------



## lauraleellbp

I agree, it's probably the uneaten food/no scavenger issues that led to the algae bloom rather than dosing...

Considered adding any MTS to your tank? Between those, my Cories, and my Amanos, there's never any food in my tank that goes uneaten for long...


----------



## number1sixerfan

Hoppy said:


> When you feed fish three times a day, that big mass of food gets processed by the fish and reappears converted to desirable nutrients, plus undesirable ammonia. The ammonia can be the cause of an algae attack. And the desirable nutrients can be a good reason to dose smaller doses of fertilizers. As far as I know, only the ammonia can be a cause for an algae problem, not the extra desirable nutrients.


There is no big mass of food. I feed a pinch just for that reason, I've essentially been underfeeding my discus ever since I put them in the show tank. I've been doing this for 3 months now and water has been clear as day until I dosed plantex. I even reduced feeding 3 times a day to once a day when I started dosing because I was afraid of something would happen to my discus(because of the nitrates). I fed once in the morning the past three days. Stopped feeding altogether once the algae bloom hit.

I hardly doubt that it is coincidence that as soon as I start dosing, I have an algae bloom. I believe it is a combo of the food and access nutrients dosed into the tank. I don't know the technicalities of an algae bloom, but I have never had a bloom until this week, which was after reducing the amount of food I put in the tank, simple coincidence doesn't add up here.


----------



## number1sixerfan

lauraleellbp said:


> Considered adding any MTS to your tank? Between those, my Cories, and my Amanos, there's never any food in my tank that goes uneaten for long...


I'm about to add the following(which will make me need to decrease my dosing of N and P even more):

10 Rummynose Tetra
3 Botia Loach
5 Ottos
3 Rams
4 Congo Tetra
10 Nerite Snails
1 Bushy Nose Pleco

I also want to add 5 amano shrimp as well, but I need to buy them here to save money. This will expand my bioload by a lot. I will add a second filter and more plants as well, but if I find it too much(which I think I will sense I only want to waterchange once per week) I will take some of the fish and move them to one of my other 2 tanks. I just want to order them all now so I can make the most of the $30 shipping fee(liveaquaria).

Do you think the Nerites, Pleco, and Ottos will be enough for algae? The botia loach is simply to kill the pesty snails that make it into my tank from plants.


----------



## lauraleellbp

None of those will do much for uneaten food. Otos, Nerites, and BN plecos all mostly eat algae. The loaches should help, but I'd really strongly consider getting some Cories. IMO they're the best vaccum-cleaners you can put in an aquarium LOL (Though Amanos are excellent scavengers, as well... I've got 15 or so Amanos in my 90gal)


----------



## number1sixerfan

lauraleellbp said:


> None of those will do much for uneaten food. Otos, Nerites, and BN plecos all mostly eat algae. The loaches should help, but I'd really strongly consider getting some Cories. IMO they're the best vaccum-cleaners you can put in an aquarium LOL (Though Amanos are excellent scavengers, as well... I've got 15 or so Amanos in my 90gal)


The only problem with that is bioload. I don't think that I can add another school. Maybe I could add two more loaches. 

My problem is trying to find a balance between the scavengers and algae cleaners and their bio load. What combo would you do? I was trying to maximize effeciency by adding shrimp and nerites since they have less bio loads.


----------



## rich815

number1sixerfan said:


> The only problem with that is bioload. I don't think that I can add another school. Maybe I could add two more loaches.
> 
> My problem is trying to find a balance between the scavengers and algae cleaners and their bio load. What combo would you do? I was trying to maximize effeciency by adding shrimp and nerites since they have less bio loads.


I remember an earlier thread in which someone made the assumption that snails had lower bioload than fish and the response was a large NO. That snails had as much if not more and it was supported as such by some of those who raise or keep snails. 

I think you should get a school of 6 or so cories. My personal favs are sterbai, adolfous, habrosus and emeralds.


----------



## lauraleellbp

A small school of cories will end up less bioload than 4 loaches that get 6" apiece...


----------



## number1sixerfan

Thanks, I will take you all's advice and add some cories. Getting back on topic, is there anyone out there who has a heavily stocked tank, with relatively low plant mass? What is _your_ dosing regimen?


----------



## Joetee

I would just use EI. You could also go down a tank size and then watch your plants to see how they adapt. If you are to lean on your ferts, you will encounter algae. A little to much does less harm that to little.


----------



## ZooTycoonMaster

So tell me if this is right for a 10 gallon tank:

1/8 tsp. KNO3
1/32 tsp. KH2PO4
1/8 tsp. K2SO4
? for Plantex CSM+B...help me with this

And I shouldn't dose Plantex at the same time as KH2PO4...say I dose Plantex, how long do I have to wait before I can dose KH2PO4?


----------



## imeridian

You don't have to wait. The FePO4 issue comes from storing them together in concentrated liquid solution.


----------



## brohawk

1/32 tsp K2SO4. Same w/ Plantex--reread the first page of this post. I'd put it into solution for better accuracy in such small qty's.


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

This info is on the first post of this thread.

Mixing Plantex CSM+B or Fe/Iron Chelate 10%- mix 1Tbsp per 250ml water-
one capfull=5ml.

Depending on the light I had over this 10g tank I would dose half-capfull
daily, good enough!

You can dose any of these anytime you want. I prefer to dose daily
it is easier for me to keep up with all my tank dosing (I have 7 tanks.)

EDIT: I have been ninja'd


----------



## brohawk

My first successful ninja. Shweet.


----------



## ZooTycoonMaster

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> This info is on the first post of this thread.
> 
> Mixing Plantex CSM+B or Fe/Iron Chelate 10%- mix 1Tbsp per 250ml water-
> one capfull=5ml.


Rex Grigg says to mix 2 tablespoons with 2 cups of water, and add 2 ml to a 10 gallon tank...


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

One cup of water is 250ml. half-capfull is 2.5ml.


----------



## ZooTycoonMaster

Ohhh ok. So I mix a tablespoon of it into a cup of water, and dose 2.5 ml. Got it


----------



## plantbrain

ZooTycoonMaster said:


> So tell me if this is right for a 10 gallon tank:
> 
> 1/8 tsp. KNO3
> 1/32 tsp. KH2PO4
> 1/8 tsp. K2SO4
> ? for Plantex CSM+B...help me with this
> 
> And I shouldn't dose Plantex at the same time as KH2PO4...say I dose Plantex, how long do I have to wait before I can dose KH2PO4?


I'd suggest going to liquids instead of trying to measure 1/32nd of a tsp:redface:

Just mix a 4 week supply in 500ml of water, divide the mls by 4 weeksX 7 days in a week. 500mls / 28 days = ~18mls per day.

Add the macros together and keep the trace plantex seperated in another solution. There's more on it for daily dosing folks under PMDD +PO4.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## ZooTycoonMaster

plantbrain said:


> I'd suggest going to liquids instead of trying to measure 1/32nd of a tsp:redface:
> 
> Just mix a 4 week supply in 500ml of water, divide the mls by 4 weeksX 7 days in a week. 500mls / 28 days = ~18mls per day.
> 
> Add the macros together and keep the trace plantex seperated in another solution. There's more on it for daily dosing folks under PMDD +PO4.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


I'm doing the liquid method here.

Yeah I know (about the 1/32 tsp.):hihi: I used 1/4 teaspoon, then tried to estimate half of that, then half of that, then half of that:hihi:


----------



## plantbrain

Dry dosing is easy with 20 Gallons and up. Gets a bit silly with smaller tanks. You can buy those dispensing 1ml bottles for about 1-2$ on line also.
Or the squeeze and fill reservior style for larger volumes(say 5 or more mls).

It is not particularly important nor critical you are terribly accurate, but it's not hard to make a liquid once you have done it once. From there you can dose pretty easy, the issue with accuracy is not critical due to plants having a wide range of nutrients they will grow in and with some simple water changes and frequent dosing, there's hardly any need for a particular level of accuracy.

Think about it like this: The Atkin's diet but for plants.

CO2= the carbs/sugars etc
Nutrients= the vitamins

A plant gets very lean and has little demand for nutrients if there's little CO2........and they lose biomass(Fat.... for us) and do not grow much.

CO2 is far more important to plants like Carbs are for us(if we want to grow and have energy). Our body will use the proteins and use more energy if there is no carbs around. Not easy on the kidney etc.........but it does work.

Same type of thing with plants, the consisency is more important for nutrients and having a bit/even a lot more than the break point limiting level.
You can also have mild(slows growth some) and strong(stunts delevelopment) limiting levels.

There's going to be little difference between say 20ppm vs 30ppm of NO3, but there will be a lot more with 5ppm vs 15-20ppm.

So you have a working range that's fairly large, an easy target to hit given all the errors. And that's the general point with any method.........make that target large and easy to hit.

The range of this target has gotten much larger over the years also.
Thus being easier to hit and manage.

What came into play later was as growth increases, more light is added, many folks got tunnel vision with nutrients and forgot about CO2.

CO2 is where it's all at(if you use it).
I'd spend 90% of my efforts there and maybe 5% on nutrients.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## ZooTycoonMaster

Thanks Tom!

Also have another question - what happens if you accidentally overdose on K2SO4 and KH2PO4?


----------



## plantbrain

You go straight to Hades and never return

Nothing really.

You do a water change and then things are fine.
Flks often have swapped nutrients and made errors, some rather large, and that's how we know things like such higher levels do not cause issues, they might have for some folks according to them and poor test methods and results that do not support their claims, but for us to be sure, we should see this when we dose a lot everytime, not just a few% based on results who knows what all was going on and no one can say much about.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## roybot73

With the PMDD +PO4 (http://www.barrreport.com/estimativ...t-daily-pmdd-style-ei-dosing-9.html#post23098) dosing, is a GH booster _absolutely_ necessary? What would or would not happen if that solution were mixed without GH booster?

Found my answer...:thumbsup:


----------



## coolnick

plantbrain said:


> I'd suggest going to liquids instead of trying to measure 1/32nd of a tsp:redface:
> 
> Just mix a 4 week supply in 500ml of water, divide the mls by 4 weeksX 7 days in a week. 500mls / 28 days = ~18mls per day.
> 
> Add the macros together and keep the trace plantex seperated in another solution. There's more on it for daily dosing folks under PMDD +PO4.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


So if I get a couple of those 500ml bottles that you squeeze into the built in measuring chamber, you are saying that I would have *one bottle *for my *KNO3/KH2PO4/K2SO4 *and another bottle with the Plantex CSM+B?

The KNO3/KH2PO4/K2SO4 will all stay in suspension in one bottle without locking eachother out? I assume I will have to use a 4:1:1 ratio, respectively.

Sorry if I'm a little late to the parade. :redface:


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## ZooTycoonMaster

What happens if the tank doesn't get fertilized for 2-3 days while I'm on vacation? Not much?


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

Turn the light way down, but leave C02 running with the lights
on a timer, you will be fine.
Do a water change and dose that day or the day before.

If you have a few days/weeks before you leave try it before
you leave as a test.


----------



## ZooTycoonMaster

I have a T5 HO fixture...should I just remove a bulb, if that's what you mean?

And no, I'm leaving tomorrow:hihi:


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

Raise it up 4 or 5 inches or set a timer to run light and C02
for 3 or 4 hours a day until you return.

I don't think you can pull a bulb on a T5HO fixture and
it work on that circuit.

Next time, wait until the last minute to learn these things,, hehe


----------



## ZooTycoonMaster

Is there any ill effect(s) from switching from EI dosing to PPS dosing?


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

You will lose your right to be in clubEI.. 

Not that I know of, dosing is dosing, and plants are plants, as long as you
feed the plants.


----------



## imeridian

You'll start posting thread after thread with photos asking "what deficiency is this?!"


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

imeridian said:


> You'll start posting thread after thread with photos asking "what deficiency is this?!"


lol... :smile:


----------



## ZooTycoonMaster

Does MgSO4 raise pH and/or water hardness? Or nothing?


----------



## imeridian

It will increase GH.


----------



## Tonysok

Does anyone else's CSM+B/trace mixture with RO/RI water mold up after awhile?


----------



## dewalltheway

Tonysok said:


> Does anyone else's CSM+B/trace mixture with RO/RI water mold up after awhile?


Do you keep it in the fridge? If not, do. This will keep it from molding.


----------



## bsmith

I believe PPS is a leaner fert routine then EI, where you would start test alittle and add more of what is missing. EI on the other hand is where we dose in excess and test and remove whatever there is too much of. The safer route if you ask me.



ZooTycoonMaster said:


> Does MgSO4 raise pH and/or water hardness? Or nothing?


----------



## BayBoy1205

I have all of my dry ferts and wondering what would be the best approach to dose a 125G tank? Would you mix up solution (I have 1000mL bottles) or powder directly?
Do you shoot for the target amount or gradually increase it?

Thanks,

Mat


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

Use measuring spoons and dry dose, no gradual increase, just dose, but a few
questions first:

How much light do you have?

How well planted is the tank?

Do you have pressurized Co2?

These factor in on what and how much to dose.

Regards


----------



## BayBoy1205

I'm running 8 - 36" 39W T-5HO.
Yes, pressurized CO2.
Here is a recent pic of my tank.


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

Nice start and good job! 

That is a lot of light.

How are you diffusing Co2? Co2 will be the biggest challenge of all, you need
good diffusion & distribution of the gas.

The dosing regime listed on front page will get you started very well, you can
also divide those numbers and dose daily if you desire.

Dose the trace minerals first, if you dose them dry just mix it in a cup of tank
water and pour it in the flow path, dosing the macro's just scoop and dosing also in flow path.

Are you seeing any signs of BBA? black fuzzy looking algae on anything? if so
you Co2 needs to be tweaked for better diffusion and distribution.

What is the filtration on this 125?

Your plants look good and things are growing well, once you start dosing you
may find an explosion of growth and may become a lot of work keeping the 
tank maintained, if this becomes the case, reducing the light intensity alone
will slow things down for you.
You will still want the same good Co2 an nutrients however.


----------



## BayBoy1205

Thanks, I run 4 bulbs a couple hours and then all 8 for 7 hours and then 4 for a couple hours.
I have been dosing the Wonder-Gro product, but cost started adding up and going with the dry route.
I'm diffusing the CO2 using a Mag9.5 needle wheel. The output goes down the middle of the tank about 2" off the bottom and then in both directions about 5". 
I try and keep the double checker in the green to slightly yellow. But with my well water (inconsistent) the CO2 varies. Will be using RO water once the setup gets here.
I do have some BBA in some low flow areas. Have some power heads coming to increase flow in those areas.
I'm running two Eheim 2028's for filtration.
Also another Mag9.5 running the 25W UV.

Thanks,
Matt


----------



## kyle3

forgive me if this has already been included , the thread search tool didn't have any matches.

when you go buy your measuring spoons for dry ferts they're are commonly labeled by drop, smidge, pinch, hint. i think the translation is 1/64=drop, 1/32=smidge, 1/16=pinch & 1/8=hint. can anyone confirm that? i know there are also spoons labeled dash & a few others odd cooking names. it seems like it would be useful to have this info confirmed and part of the thread. If you know for sure please post a reply!  thanks!

-K


----------



## binders

Do you have to mix CSM+Bwith water or can you dry dose it? Seems like most people have problems with the water solution and I was wondering what would be the problem of just dry doing it I some do with the macros. New to the fertz and was just wondering. :redface:


----------



## plantbrain

Well fed fish and well fed plants is a common sense approach to keeping aquarium livestock and plants.

Plants are not merely about the nutrients, CO2 is a nutrient and the largest one really. Light is fairly stable and few folks are ever too low when using CO2. Most are too high with light intensity.

These both affect the results for nutrients/rates etc.
No dosing routine will match all tanks as their rates are different, but we do know the upper bounds/rates. From there, you reduce down (or not, these rates will do no harm, see below).

Starting low and bring it up higher till no more positive effect is noted is much harder, and takes longer. Why? The plants are already starved/limited for nutrients. It takes longer for them to adjust that if they where fat and happy to begin with.

You need to start with a good plant reference state, not a limited plant.
Same for testing algae and analyzing why you have algae.
You need a reference tank(one that's doing well and is nice and healthy), testing a 1/2 dead plant, algae covered, stunted, limited....is hardly a good comparative method to gauge and discuss a treatment.

Still, many aquarist seem to think that it is rational to assume they can "test" something without any control and a loused up tank.
You must have some reference to compare by.

You can look to research for plant nutrients. A basic tool is using Hoagland's modified solution and then DI water for nutrient solution references, one complete and non limiting (Hoagland's), the other, devoid of any nutrients(DI water).

Any sediment or nutrient combination in between will fall somewhere between these two. In the case of salt and other toxicants, it will also do worse than the DI water, but as far nutrients alone, the DI water will have the least.

Now you have a relative measure for any nutrient in between these two concentrations.

EI is pretty much like Hoagland's modified and without the NH4.
Gerloff and Kromboltz(who comes to the AGA conventions, still posted on the APD etc) decades ago used a 1/5th Hoaglands for aquatic plants, which, is about what EI's range is.

http://allhydroponics.blogspot.com/2009/02/hoaglands-solution-for-hydroponic.html

Now at :

N 210 ppm
K 235 ppm
Ca 200 ppm
P 31 ppm
S 64 ppm
Mg 48 ppm
B 0.5 ppm
Fe 1 to 5 ppm
Mn 0.5 ppm
Zn 0.05 ppm
Cu 0.02 ppm
Mo 0.01 ppm

These are pretty high, yet some clowns claim that 20ppm of NO3 causes plants to melt:icon_roll Such solutions above are what is used for commercial growers of aquatic plants(95% of all aquatics)! Not to mention most other crops. This information is widely available. Many aquarist seem more than willing to **actively** ignore it. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## kali

so i did tried to read the whole thread but just wanna making sure .. you only mix the plantex CSM+B? everything else KN03,KH2P04,K2S04 just dump tsp in the tank?


----------



## rich815

kali said:


> so i did tried to read the whole thread but just wanna making sure .. you only mix the plantex CSM+B? everything else KN03,KH2P04,K2S04 just dump tsp in the tank?


I dose all, even CSM+B, dry.


----------



## kali

rich815 said:


> I dose all, even CSM+B, dry.


 seriously?


----------



## rich815

kali said:


> seriously?


Yes. I am presently using TMG liquid (or TPN) as I acquired a jug cheap and wanted to try it. Frankly I see no difference than when I dosed CSM+B. My tank link below in my signature was from when I was dosing CSM+B dry for almost a year at 1/4 t. every other day in the morning, right into the tank. I tried mixing some up but even in the fridge within a few weeks it was getting floating mildew/mold pieces, so I went back to dry.


----------



## kali

rich815 said:


> Yes. I am presently using TMG liquid (or TPN) as I acquired a jug cheap and wanted to try it. Frankly I see no difference than when I dosed CSM+B. My tank link below in my signature was from when I was dosing CSM+B dry for almost a year at 1/4 t. every other day in the morning, right into the tank. I tried mixing some up but even in the fridge within a few weeks it was getting floating mildew/mold pieces, so I went back to dry.


 thank rich , good to know .for a min there i thought u were messing with me !?!?! lol


----------



## will5

What happened to the K2SO4 dosing in the guide?


----------



## plantbrain

rich815 said:


> Yes. I am presently using TMG liquid (or TPN) as I acquired a jug cheap and wanted to try it. Frankly I see no difference than when I dosed CSM+B. My tank link below in my signature was from when I was dosing CSM+B dry for almost a year at 1/4 t. every other day in the morning, right into the tank. I tried mixing some up but even in the fridge within a few weeks it was getting floating mildew/mold pieces, so I went back to dry.


This is true for softer KH water, but if you spike the CMS+B with DTPA Fe, then you have the same effects also in harder water at higher KH's.

Still, most of us in the SFBAAPS club going way back report similar things regarding CMS+B and TMG.

The nail in the coffin was when TMG shot up in pricing.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

will5 said:


> What happened to the K2SO4 dosing in the guide?


I guess it got folded into GH booster and/or Seachem Eq, as it's about 50% K2SO4.

You can use dosing calculators to target whatever K+ level you chose for either KCL or K2SO4

I have about 30-40ppm of K+ sitting in my tanks using a colorimeter to measure it using standard calibration solutions(1ppm, 10ppm and 100 ppm) 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## will5

plantbrain said:


> I guess it got folded into GH booster and/or Seachem Eq, as it's about 50% K2SO4.
> 
> You can use dosing calculators to target whatever K+ level you chose for either KCL or K2SO4
> 
> I have about 30-40ppm of K+ sitting in my tanks using a colorimeter to measure it using standard calibration solutions(1ppm, 10ppm and 100 ppm)
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


I don't think I need to use either of those.


----------



## EdTheEdge

*New to CSM+B*

Hello everyone....

I just got my order in from GLA (Thanks Orlando!) of CSM+B. So I mixed up 2 tablespoons of the powder with 500ml of distilled water. Now I need to know how much I need to add to reach the proper dosing levels in my tanks. Being mathamatically challenged I was hoping to get some help here.

How many milliliters do I add to my 90gal?
How many milliliters do I add to my 25gal?
How many milliliters do I add to my 15gal?

As always TIA!

Ed


----------



## Church

Well, each tablespoon is the equivalent of about 3 teaspoons, so you have 6 teaspoons dissolved in 500 mL. According to the Fertilator over at APC, for a 90g tank you need 1/8th tsp to get the recommended 0.1 ppm of Iron. So:

500 mL / 6 tsp = 83.333 (This is how many mL of solution there are for each tsp of powder. Just round down to 80 for easy math.)

80 mL / 8 = 10 mL (Since you only want an 1/8th of a tsp.)


This means that on your 90g you need to add 10 mL of your solution to achieve 0.1 ppm Fe.

On your 25g you need about 2.5 mL, and on your 15g about 1 mL.


Hope that helps. I was bored enough to do the math for you.


----------



## EdTheEdge

Church said:


> Well, each tablespoon is the equivalent of about 3 teaspoons, so you have 6 teaspoons dissolved in 500 mL. According to the Fertilator over at APC, for a 90g tank you need 1/8th tsp to get the recommended 0.1 ppm of Iron. So:
> 
> 500 mL / 6 tsp = 83.333 (This is how many mL of solution there are for each tsp of powder. Just round down to 80 for easy math.)
> 
> 80 mL / 8 = 10 mL (Since you only want an 1/8th of a tsp.)
> 
> 
> This means that on your 90g you need to add 10 mL of your solution to achieve 0.1 ppm Fe.
> 
> On your 25g you need about 2.5 mL, and on your 15g about 1 mL.
> 
> 
> Hope that helps. I was bored enough to do the math for you.


Whoa! Thanks Church! I missed this post but really do appreciate your efforts!!! roud:

I am sorry you are so bored.... I think you might need another tank! LOL!


----------



## ermaclob

where do you buy all of these ferts?


----------



## Church

EdTheEdge said:


> Whoa! Thanks Church! I missed this post but really do appreciate your efforts!!! roud:
> 
> I am sorry you are so bored.... I think you might need another tank! LOL!


Haha, I'm already a step ahead of you.  I'm in the planning stages of a 5.5g nano reef/lagoon setup. Obviously that one won't get talked about too much here, though...


----------



## agoins

On a 29 gallon tank, how does this sound? I dont have CO2 set up to it, I have DIY. I have been supplementing it with excel (3mL). I bought a fert combo from rex. I have 38 watts of light on it, on about 8 hours a day. I do have a decent bio load on it, a fairly large angel fish, 6 lemon tetras, and a pleco which stays in one spot (the substrate is black from his poop when I move his DW ha).

20~40gal
50% H20 change-weekly
1/4 Tsp-KN03 3x a week
1/16 Tsp-KH2P04 3x a week
1/2 Tsp-GH booster once a week
5ml or 1/16Tsp-Trace 3x a week

Should I take this and half it? Since I'm not injecting CO2 it will limit the growth, no point in over doing the ferts I think.


----------



## Diana

Dry ferts are available at www.aquariumfertilizer.com and other places.


----------



## Jonno

Hi there

I have just decided to start my 55gal from scratch and introduce dry ferts what regime would you suggest i start with once i plant? I read some sites saying you should add certain ferts at a time does this matter much?

thanks j


----------



## bsmith

40~60gal
50% H20 change-weekly
1/2 Tsp-KN03 3x a week
1/8 Tsp-KH2P04 3x a week
3/4 Tsp-GH booster once a week
10ml or 1/8Tsp-Trace 3x a week
Optional
2-4ml-Fe/Iron 3x a week


----------



## Jonno

Ye i see but when starting is there any particular order to dose?


----------



## bsmith

Nope. I dose Macros MWF Micros TuThSat and do my water change on Sunday.


----------



## Jonno

When now starting a planted tank as in you are now starting the tank from scratch any order is fine?


----------



## bsmith

Yes, it really does not matter.


----------



## Jonno

ok thanks for your help i read on another site that you should only start dosin when you first plant, when you see your plants starting to show signs of "dead leaves" i also read that you should start with trace...


----------



## bsmith

I didn't think it was necessary to say that there is no reason to dose when there is not plants in the tank. I would not wait until there are signs of deficiency but rather start your routine when the plants are introduced.


----------



## Jonno

ok great thanks im sure i will have other questions i will let you know you have been a great help


----------



## bsmith

Np problem. If you have any questions that dont pertain to dosing just shoot me a PM or feel free to start a thread.


----------



## plantbrain

Just keep in mind with any dosing routine, light and CO2 play much larger factors in being able to effective manage the aquarium, algae and plant growth.

Reduced light is the best way to address most every issue before reducing CO2/nutrients, because, since light drives those two, reducing light also reduces demand for CO2/nutrients, so adding less is easier/less wasteful and less risky.

Most folks have issues more with CO2/light than they do with nutrients, which by and large, are rather easy, you add them to prevent things from running out, water changes/test kits to prevent things from building up etc.

Rich fertile sediments also make dosing routines much easier and forgiving, since you do not dose the sediments once added really, they are one time set and forget type of thing and provide long term nutrient supply.

This means if you forget to dose the water column, then you have a back up. Many rely on sediments, but adding water column dosing also provides a back up for the sediments and extends the life and ability of both locations to provide nutrients and not run out of anything.

So use both, focus on light/CO2 balances.

Then dosing is not nearly as important/problematic as many have suggested for many years.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Jonno

I am running Co2 with 110W T5 light on a 55gal for about 8hrs co2 at 2-3 bpm


----------



## tyler79durdan

What is the dry amount kh2po4 to mix into 250ml water? Is it 1 TBS?


----------



## Hoppy

Jonno said:


> I am running Co2 with 110W T5 light on a 55gal for about 8hrs co2 at 2-3 bpm


You have too much light to use so little CO2. 2-3 bubbles per second would be much closer to the amount needed, but you have to judge that by what goes on in the tank, not by bubble count.


----------



## rahlcepx516

Ok, so I only have a constant supply of KNO3. Is it OK for me to just dose KNO3 and nothing else?

DIY co2 (so not a very consistent or abundant amount)
3x54 watts
aqplants.com substrate

in a nut shell.


----------



## tyler79durdan

The diagram shows in the Original Post, that without all pieces of the pie, i.e. micros and macros and light and CO2, the pie will never be whole and therefor never complete the requirements for healthy growth. You may still see some growth with only KNO3, but it will be stunted growth.


----------



## Hoppy

When you use excessive light, for the nutrients you provide, the most competitive plants tend to get most of the least available nutrient. Those plants grow, but the others just melt or sit there not growing at all. With fish in the tank there will be a small supply of phosphate and potassium (maybe) so some of the plants might be able to grow. The organisms that will be able and enthusiastic about growing best will be algae of various types.


----------



## plantbrain

tyler79durdan said:


> What is the dry amount kh2po4 to mix into 250ml water? Is it 1 TBS?


It depends, for a 75 Gal piranha tank, no need, I'd dose a 1/4 tsp 3x a week.

If you dose 1/4tsp x 3 per week to make a 4 week supply and dose say 6mls a day, it ends up between the same thing.

Like f/stop and shutter speed to get the right exposue(or dose of light) on a camera. It's a reciprocal relationship. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## rahlcepx516

Am I reading this right? I need to dose about half a TBSP of Potassium sulfate (k2so4) for a 55 gallon tank?


----------



## Dempsey

rahlcepx516 said:


> Am I reading this right? I need to dose about half a TBSP of Potassium sulfate (k2so4) for a 55 gallon tank?


 
More like 1/8tsp. Not tbsp

EDIT: 3x a week


----------



## rahlcepx516

hmmm... Well, "Chuck's Planted Aquarium Calculator" says 1 1/2 TSP.. Am I just reading it wrong? It seems to have the KNO3 and kh2po4 correct...

ruh roh.. I put in 3/4 tsp... Should I start bailing water?


----------



## plantbrain

rahlcepx516 said:


> hmmm... Well, "Chuck's Planted Aquarium Calculator" says 1 1/2 TSP.. Am I just reading it wrong? It seems to have the KNO3 and kh2po4 correct...
> 
> ruh roh.. I put in 3/4 tsp... Should I start bailing water?


Back in the day when ODing K+ was en vogue.
You get a fair amount from KNO3.

So unless you are getting say 75% or more N from the fish waste, there's not much need, this does not include the K+ from any other source like KH2PO4.

Note; adding more K2SO4 will do no harm.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## rahlcepx516

plantbrain said:


> Back in the day when ODing K+ was en vogue.
> You get a fair amount from KNO3.
> 
> So unless you are getting say 75% or more N from the fish waste, there's not much need, this does not include the K+ from any other source like KH2PO4.
> 
> Note; adding more K2SO4 will do no harm.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Thanks!

Also, can EI dosing be used for house plants as well if mixed into a solution? What about food plants such as peppers etc?


----------



## thadius65

I have been out of the planted tank world for about 2 years. I am struggling to get my mind back into the EI dosing... I have a 125gallon with CO2. Looking at my chicken scratch notes... I am struggling.

Using the M,W,F dosing for CSM+b solution and T,Th,Sat for (KNO3, KH2P04 and K2S04), what is the proper dosing for my tank?

My notes show as 9tsps of KN03 and 3tsp of KH2P04 and 3tsp of K2S04 for trace solution mixed into 500ml of water. Then 80ml per dose (T,Th,Sat).

My notes show 1tbsp of CSM+B and 1tbsp of MGS04 to 500ml of water. Then 80ml per dose (M,W,F)

All followed by a 50% water change on Sundays.

How messed up are my notes? Please help me jump start my brain!

Thanks,

Ted


----------



## thadius65

Anyone? Please?


----------



## Aquaticz

Loyts of places to look that one up. I'd go to 
jamesplantedtank.com
it was the easiest for my thick brain to digest


----------



## Joetee

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/fertilizers-water-parameters/21944-_dosing-regimes_.html

Joe


----------



## Gatekeeper

Joetee said:


> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/fertilizers-water-parameters/21944-_dosing-regimes_.html
> 
> Joe


Dude, you just linked to the thread your in. Classic.


----------



## Gatekeeper

thadius65 said:


> I have been out of the planted tank world for about 2 years. I am struggling to get my mind back into the EI dosing... I have a 125gallon with CO2. Looking at my chicken scratch notes... I am struggling.
> 
> Using the M,W,F dosing for CSM+b solution and T,Th,Sat for (KNO3, KH2P04 and K2S04), what is the proper dosing for my tank?
> 
> My notes show as 9tsps of KN03 and 3tsp of KH2P04 and 3tsp of K2S04 for trace solution mixed into 500ml of water. Then 80ml per dose (T,Th,Sat).
> 
> My notes show 1tbsp of CSM+B and 1tbsp of MGS04 to 500ml of water. Then 80ml per dose (M,W,F)
> 
> All followed by a 50% water change on Sundays.
> 
> How messed up are my notes? Please help me jump start my brain!
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ted


Checking now. BRB.


----------



## Gatekeeper

Here are some notes I found for a tank that large.

100 - 125 Gallon Aquarium 
+/- 1 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- ½ tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- ½ tsp (30ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change


But EI is a flexible methodology. Close counts.

Obviously, K2SO4 can be added to compensate for additional potassium if needed.

There are a number of software programs out there to use. APC has the fertilator which is pretty handy.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilator.php (you need to be a member I think to use it)


----------



## Aquaticz

I make base solutions & use this on a 55 & an 80 gal

(N) – KNO3
Nitrate in Potassium Nitrate 
Target – 20-30ppm _
This dose is for 24 ppm
Add 8 ppm 3 X’s a week
Each Dose =15.09ml

Will also add K: Potassium in 
Potassium Nitrate
15.09 X .33 = 4.97ppm of K added at each dosing on N

THE MIX:
*98 grams of KNO3 in 500ml of water 
will yield = 0.53 

*1ml will raise 60g 
by 0.53 ppm nitrate 

*max solubility is 36g per 100ml or 180g per 500 ml
FOR K *1ml will raise 60g 
by 0.33 ppm Potassium
Target 20-30 ppm
**************************************
(P) – KH2P04
Phosphate in Mono Potassium Phosphate 
Target 1-3 ppm _
This dose is for 2 ppm
Add 2 ppm 3 X’s a week
Each Dose =4.08ml


THE MIX:
80 grams of KH2PO4
in 500ml of water 
will yield = 0.49

*1ml will raise 60g 
by 0.49 ppm nitrate 

max solubility is 22g per 100ml or 110g per 500 ml


Hope this helps you


----------



## plantbrain

Wet also has a nice modeling display for EI or any water change routine, dosing routine for that matter.

http://wet.biggiantnerds.com/ei/con_v_time.pl

Useful in predicting the outcomes and build up ranges.
In general however, most place huge over zealous risk and importance on nutrients, and go the opposite way with CO2 and/or light, when for ease of management of planted tanks, it should be the other way around.

I think it's much wiser to approach the head rather than the tail to wag the dog.
So light, then CO2(or not, then,.............you chose nutrient locations........finally nutrient dosing for the water column.

As you can see, *water column dosing is way down on the line*.

Ponder why this is. When this is understood, you will have far more options, tools to work with and a higher success rates.

Then dosing is far less critical. Dosing is important not so much for the plants in this case, rather it is an important as we make it to be. Be careful not to set things up where you have walk a knife's edge, make them with more redundancy, resiliency, more wiggle room in the methods overall, *not just based on nutrients alone, you limit yourself in that case!!*

That is never wise.
This is one reason I have never been particularly strict in dosing is for this very reason. You never needed to be in the first place.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## pjrichar

can anyone tell me what i should be dosing?

I have a 55 with two hob emporor filters. 350,200. two 18watt t5 6700 bulbs. 7 cfls 15 watt a pc 6500k. timing off setting. anubias, guppy grass, swords, java moss, filigre, and few others i cant remember names. light is on around 10 hrs a day now. I dont see too much growth except for a few things. I have no co2 and no ferts right now. I dont want to set up a co2 system, but would use liquid form. Tank has been up for yrs now , good bioload. I am looking for something easy,, i dont want a jungle in my tank just nice looking plants that do well. I dont want to dose 5 or 6 things with massive water changes etc etc..


----------



## Hoppy

pjrichar said:


> can anyone tell me what i should be dosing?
> 
> I have a 55 with two hob emporor filters. 350,200. two 18watt t5 6700 bulbs. 7 cfls 15 watt a pc 6500k. timing off setting. anubias, guppy grass, swords, java moss, filigre, and few others i cant remember names. light is on around 10 hrs a day now. I dont see too much growth except for a few things. I have no co2 and no ferts right now. I dont want to set up a co2 system, but would use liquid form. Tank has been up for yrs now , good bioload. I am looking for something easy,, i dont want a jungle in my tank just nice looking plants that do well. I dont want to dose 5 or 6 things with massive water changes etc etc..


With such a hodge podge of lighting I have no idea how much light you have. If you can afford it, one of these, http://www.catalinaaquarium.com/product_info.php?cPath=71_76&products_id=1196 , would give you good low light, and you should be able to do without CO2 and still have healthy low light plants. Or, watch Craigslist for bargains on 48 inch PC fixtures.

Once you know how much light you have, then you can decide how to fertilize them. But, the best approach is probably to make some mneralized top soil, and cap it with pool filter sand - a cheap, but nutrient filled substrate. With that you could probably do without adding fertilizers at all.


----------



## plantbrain

+1 on different lighting, no more than say 108W tops.
Particularly if you plan on using Excel and no CO2.
Also, sediment based ferts.

Then dosing is about EI by 1/4 2x a week.
Once a month water change at 50% etc.
Or you could do 25% weekly. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## pjrichar

i know i could use just one light, but i like the diy stuff.. so i convert my fixtures to cfl bulbs. im at about 140 watts right now. its a little diff lighting but all 6500k. just got some excel flourish and started that today. I have some api leaf zone sitting around, would this be good to dose? I also bought some sera florenette A fert tabs,, using them for my swords..
how do these sound.. I super newb to ferts and such,, so any help is appreciated. I have had aquariums for yrs now, but just now taking that step..


----------



## Yoder808

plantbrain said:


> Then dosing is about EI by 1/4 2x a week.
> Once a month water change at 50% etc.
> Or you could do 25% weekly.


Tom, what did you mean here? That with a nutrient rich substrate, like MTS, that one should reduce the EI dosage (by 3/4?), dosing 2 times a week?


----------



## plantbrain

Yoder808 said:


> Tom, what did you mean here? That with a nutrient rich substrate, like MTS, that one should reduce the EI dosage (by 3/4?), dosing 2 times a week?


Well ,you can dose EI fully, nothing wrong there...........
However, the plant demand is less than that and you have ample back up with soil.

The soil generally has most thing over a very long time frame, say 5-10 years if it's a decent clay loam. Except.........for N.........this is depleted relatively rapidly, within a 1 year or so I'd estimate for a good clay loam.
Less for others........

So those are long term things to consider.
I would go about 1/2 EI for a low light soil based tank, likely be fine.
Add good fish load etc as well(another back up source of ferts).

Should not be tough.

You might increase KNO3 dosing after 3-9 months.

I tend to dose heavier, then hope to get longer life out of the sediment, because.........well......it's a PITA to replace it.

Water column dosing?
Easy.

Overall, as far as management.....both locations supplement and act synergistically.

So don't fall for one versus the other, either or......use both.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## rickztahone

is it safe to assume that from the first post directions (since a 10g dosing was not mentioned) i can just do half of what is appropriate for a 20-40g? or is dosing on a 10g tank not necessary? i will have co2 and adequate lighting.


----------



## Hoppy

rickztahone said:


> is it safe to assume that from the first post directions (since a 10g dosing was not mentioned) i can just do half of what is appropriate for a 20-40g? or is dosing on a 10g tank not necessary? i will have co2 and adequate lighting.


Yes, it is safe to assume that you can dose half the 20-40 gallon tank amount, or even 1/4 of it. Those are very small amounts, so it will work best if you make a couple of pre-mixes. Get a dosing bottle, like http://www.greenleafaquariums.com/aquarium-fertilizers-supplements/dispenser-16oz.html which holds 16 ounces of liquid. Then add 16 doses of KNO3 and KH2PO4 to the bottle. Fill with water, and dose one ounce of the solution each time. Do the same with the CSM+B, in another bottle. 

If you want to use just one solution, containing everything, it is difficult, because the iron in the CSM+B may combine with the phosphate in the KH2PO4, forming an insoluble precipitate. That removes the iron from the dosing. There are ways to make it work, starting with making the solution more diluted - use only 8 doses per bottle, and dose 2 ounces each time.


----------



## davesnothere

I just got my fertz today. Time to get ready to start dosing tomorrow.

--------------
20~40gal
50% H20 change-weekly
1/4 Tsp-KN03 3x a week
1/16 Tsp-KH2P04 3x aweek
1/2 Tsp-GH booster once a week
5ml or 1/16Tsp-Trace 3x a week
Optional
1-2ml-Fe/Iron 3x a week


Mixing Trace Element and Iron, Plantex CSM+B,
Fe/Iron Chelate 10%- mix 1Tbsp per 250ml water-
one cap full=5ml
----------------
I bought those bottles from here : http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=22892&catid=535

3 16 oz bottles for $5.16, shipping for very very cheap.

I was thinking of using 12 oz of water in those bottles and mix :

3 tsp KN03 , .75 tsp KH2P04 in one

.75 tsp of csm+B in another. 

This gives me one month worth of dosing. The question I have is can I add iron with csm+b ? If yes, 1 1/2 tbsp ? I still do not have GH booster. Should I order ?

Help really appreciated.

- Dave


----------



## Vinno

Can I get a hand from the experts, Started back up a plant tank after letting it die for 3 months. (Had green hair algae on plants, green dots on glass and driftwood)

I have turned off half the lighting now. 2wpg now.

Heres what I had be dossing, I think it was a bit much? Need someone to maybe tune it to a tank my size. Got info for calculators and other sources as well as this.




> 135 Litres / 35 Gallons / 4wpg 7hrs 3pm-9pm / Co2 30ppm
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sunday #OTHER #MACRO
> MONDAY #TRACE
> TUESDAY #MACRO
> WEDNESDAY #TRACE
> THURSDAY #MACRO
> FRIDAY #TRACE
> SATURDAY BREAK
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OTHER:
> Water: 50% water change
> Magnesium Sulphate MgSO4: 2 tsp = 6.73ppm
> 
> MACRO:
> Potassium Nitrate KNO3: 1/2 tsp = 12.26ppm
> Potassium Sulphate K2S04: 1/4 tsp = 3.82ppm
> Potassium Phosphate KH2PO4: 1/8 tsp = 15.36ppm
> 
> TRACE
> Chelated Iron Fe: 1/32 tsp
> Chelated Micro Trace: 1/8 tsp
> -
> Elemental Makeup:
> Iron DTPA 6%
> Manganese EDTA 2.4%
> Boron 1.1%
> Zinc EDTA 1.3%
> Copper EDTA 0.25
> Molybdenum 0.25%
> Cobalt EDTA 0.03%
> -
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## JamesHockey

Can I just dose 1/4 tsp of csm+b?


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


----------



## JamesHockey

Or should I be dosing 1/8 tsp of it on a 38 gal


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


----------



## Burks

Quick question.

I was thinking about getting a combo of 1 part each of KNO3, KSO4, MgSO4, and CSM+B for dosing my medium light, pressurized CO2 40g breeder. It's very economical (website recommends a certain dosing and 1lb would last 300 days at max dose). 

Would this be an ok idea or should I just buy each on separate and dose them individually? My tank isn't high tech or high light really (oldish 50/50 96w PC in a "flat" reflector). 

Will also supplement with root tabs for my crypts and swords. 

Thanks


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

Hello Burks, any one of your choices would be fine with the amount of light you have.
Those ferts would last you a long time.


----------



## zainey_04

I'm confused. Do I just buy the Plantex CSM+B or should I buy the N-P-K plus CSM+B to get both Micro and macro?


----------



## mscichlid

What I was told once was to buy them separately in case you have to increase the dosing of one or the other.


----------



## Jeffww

zainey_04 said:


> I'm confused. Do I just buy the Plantex CSM+B or should I buy the N-P-K plus CSM+B to get both Micro and macro?



If you can, get Miller's microplex. It's more of a complete supplement when compared to CSM.


----------



## zainey_04

mscichlid said:


> What I was told once was to buy them separately in case you have to increase the dosing of one or the other.


Makes sense. So I would have to buy KN03, KH2P04,K2S04, Fe, and CSM+B for trace?


----------



## zainey_04

Jeffww said:


> If you can, get Miller's microplex. It's more of a complete supplement when compared to CSM.


 As of right now I'm going to get CSM since it's cheaper but, later on I'll give the microplex a try


----------



## Hoppy

You are unlikely to need K2SO4, because there is plenty of potassium in KNO3. A few people believe they need to limit the amount of nitrates they dose, and they substitute some K2SO4 to get the potassium, but if you dose a GH builder, like Seachem Equilibrium, you get lots of potassium that way too. K2SO4 is yesterday's chemical.


----------



## zainey_04

So would this work for a 45 gallon tank with pressurized CO2 and T5HO lighting?

Sunday-----Day1)50% or more H20
change,1/2Tsp-KN03, 1/8-ish/Tsp-KH2P04,
Monday-----Day2) 10ml Trace, 2ml-Fe
Tuesday----Day3) 1/2Tsp-KN03, 1/8ish/Tsp-KH2P04,
Wednesday-Day4) See day2
Thursday---Day5) See day3
Friday------Day6) See day2 
Saturday---Day7) Nothing
Sunday-----Day8) See day1


----------



## zainey_04

zainey_04 said:


> So would this work for a 45 gallon tank with pressurized CO2 and T5HO lighting?
> 
> Sunday-----Day1)50% or more H20
> change,1/2Tsp-KN03, 1/8-ish/Tsp-KH2P04,
> Monday-----Day2) 10ml Trace, 2ml-Fe
> Tuesday----Day3) 1/2Tsp-KN03, 1/8ish/Tsp-KH2P04,
> Wednesday-Day4) See day2
> Thursday---Day5) See day3
> Friday------Day6) See day2
> Saturday---Day7) Nothing
> Sunday-----Day8) See day1


Anyone?


----------



## Dempsey

That looks fine. I would add some GH Booster though. 3/4tsp on water change day.


----------



## zainey_04

Cool now I can order stuff. Btw just to make sure trace is basically CSM+B right?


----------



## Dempsey

Yeah. CSM covers pretty much everything micro wise. I dose extra Fe and some others but unless you find that you need to, CSM is perfect. Actually, some folks just dose more CSM if they want extra Fe. Others, also.


----------



## audioaficionado

I'm also getting ready to order up some dry ferts for EI dosing from GLA.

1/2 lb Miller Microplex 
1 lb Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) 
1 lb Mono Potassium Phosphate (KH2PO4)
1 lb The Ultimate GH Booster
1/2 lb Iron Chelate 11% DTPA

Do I need anything else?
Is there anything here I don't need?


----------



## Hoppy

audioaficionado said:


> I'm also getting ready to order up some dry ferts for EI dosing from GLA.
> 
> 1/2 lb Miller Microplex
> 1 lb Potassium Nitrate (KNO3)
> 1 lb Mono Potassium Phosphate (KH2PO4)
> 1 lb The Ultimate GH Booster
> 1/2 lb Iron Chelate 11% DTPA
> 
> Do I need anything else?
> Is there anything here I don't need?


That looks good.


----------



## bricko

Hi, I have been reading on this forum for quite some time but this is my first post. I am trying to sort my fert regime out and would like some advice if possible.

My current tank is 90 USG, with 4 x 54W t5HO 6500k lights on for 8 hours a day. I am running CO2 @ 3BPS 24/7 and maintain a medium green colour to my DC.

I have plenty of flow and surface aggitation provided by 1 x Eheim Pro3 2180 thermo and 1 x Eheim pro 3e 2078, also a hydor koralia evolution 400lph power head to provide flow around the back of the tank (large central rock piece)

Below is my current doing regime using seachem products and basic maintenence;

Sat 25%WC gravel vac etc. Flourish 5ml,
Excell 25ml,
Phos 5ml
Nit 5ml

Sun Trace 25ml
Excell 10ml
Iron 5 ml

Mon Pot 15ml
Excell 10ml
Iron 10ml

Tue 25%WC gravel vac etc. Flourish 5ml,
Excell 25ml,
Phos 5ml
Nit 5ml

Wed Trace 25ml
Excell 10ml
Iron 5 ml

Thu Pot 15ml
Excell 10ml
Iron 10ml

Fri Nothing


I am suffering from a little dust / green spot algae on the front glass but nothing to worry too much about, my main concern is that I keep developing BBA on my slower growing plant anubias etc.

The tank is quite heavily planted with anubias, swords, jave fern, christmas tree moss and several grass I cannot remember. Here is a pic attached;

My question ios do you think the fert regime is adequate and how do i further control the BBA?

Thanks for any advise, much apreciated.

Bricko


----------



## Hoppy

Bricko, you have mostly slow growing plants, that do not require a lot of light. But, you are using very high light. Unless you can spread out the bulbs a lot more than in a typical T5 fixture, 4 bulbs is too much for a 75 gallon tank. Try it with just 2 bulbs.

Fertilizing is the easiest part of growing plants. Read the first part of this sticky on dosing schemes, and follow the recommendations in the table there. That's all there is to it.

The hardest part is getting a good level of CO2 in the tank. It needs to be pretty high, especially when you have as much light as you have, but can't be much higher without killing the fish. Reducing the light will give you much more leeway on how much CO2 is necessary, and it will reduce the growth rate of the plants (and algae) enough to make good tank maintenance much easier.


----------



## zainey_04

Is this right? So if 20ml is 1/4tsp of dry fert and my regime calls for 10ml of Csm+b then dosing 1/8tsp of CSM+b is correct? What about dosing 4ml of Fe? Btw should I be mixing this is water or can I just scoop and dump in my tank?


----------



## zainey_04

zainey_04 said:


> Is this right? So if 20ml is 1/4tsp of dry fert and my regime calls for 10ml of Csm+b then dosing 1/8tsp of CSM+b is correct? What about dosing 4ml of Fe? Btw should I be mixing this is water or can I just scoop and dump in my tank?


Anyone?


----------



## audioaficionado

Many people here just scoop and dump their ferts.


----------



## zainey_04

audioaficionado said:


> Many people here just scoop and dump their ferts.


I know that but, I'm still confused about the amount of 10ml of CSM+B and 4ML of fe I dose in terms of tsp. I know 10ml is 1/8th tsp but, what about 4ml?


----------



## kevmo911

Without checking the math and assuming you're right that 10mL is 1/8tsp, 1/16tsp would be 5mL. So a bit less than that. Or 1/64tsp would be 1.25mL, so just over 3 of those. This isn't an exact science - don't get caught up in the minute details.


----------



## zainey_04

kevmo911 said:


> Without checking the math and assuming you're right that 10mL is 1/8tsp, 1/16tsp would be 5mL. So a bit less than that. Or 1/64tsp would be 1.25mL, so just over 3 of those. This isn't an exact science - don't get caught up in the minute details.


I see what you are saying. I just don't want to overdose any particular thing. Thanks for clarifying it


----------



## toddziegler

*microplex concentrate*

This is my first question online. I have a 400ml bottle and I want to make a wet fert for dosing in my aquarium. I have potassium sulfate, millers microplex, magnesium sulfate, potassium nitrate etc. What I need to know is how many grams of the millers I need to add to my 400ml stock. I know the amounts for all the others but I'm just now using the microplex. Any help would be gbreat


----------



## Yiannis

Hi,

I dont have plantex so I will be using EI for macros and I will dose micros and iro though seachems flourish trace elements and flourish iron. Does this sound good?

Can I mix a solution of KN03, KH2P04 and K2S04 and dose 3 times a week or maybe even daily a certain amount of the solution e.g 5 ml a day or 10 ml every other day????


----------



## D9VIN

alright, i am trying to figure out a DAILY routine and dry fert solution for my 40 gal using this calculator<br />
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/calculator.htm<br />
hoping someone might let me know if i have a good starting point with these measurements<br />
<br />
KNO3- 5tsp in 500ml water, add 15ml=3.64 ppm<br />
KH2P04- .5tsp in 500 ml. add 15ml=.46 ppm (this one i am wondering on, it would give me a weekly total of 3.22, more than the target range, but far less than the recommended dosage)<br />
CSM+B- 1tsp in 500ml water add 15 ml=roughly recommended dosage

This is based on the ei an 50% weekly water changes.


----------



## Ryan S

Hi to all. I am new to this fourm, and new to planted tanks. I just wanted to find out what dosing regime can i use on a 90gal tank using dry ferts? And could you kindly break down how i would dose the ferts on a weekly bases. The tank is not running yet i am still in the process of buying all the equipment, co2, regulator, lighting, soil, etc. i am trying to read as much as possible before i start. Thanks


----------



## Yiannis

Using EI dosing method do I start the dosing regime from day 1 as if the tank was established? e.g no cutting back in ferts at the begining?


----------



## dr3ww3rd

I am trying to figure out how much of the ferts I should dose on my 5.5 gallon tank with 24w pc and diy co2. Does the schedule I have look right? If so what amounts should I dose?

Sunday - 50% water change then dose GH Booster and Excel
Monday - KNO3, KH2PO4, Excel
Tuesday - Flourish, Excel
Wednesday - KNO3, KH2PO4, Excel
Thursday - Flourish, Excel
Friday - KNO3, KH2PO4, Excel
Saturday - Flourish, Excel

....I am beyond confused with all the ppm and what amount to dose etc..etc..etc..


----------



## xxbenjamminxx

Is iron chelate and potassium sulfate necessary?

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


----------



## Hoppy

xxbenjamminxx said:


> Is iron chelate and potassium sulfate necessary?
> 
> Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


Potassium sulfate isn't needed if you are dosing the amount of potassium nitrate that the table shows. But, if your tap water high in nitrates you might want to reduce nitrate dosing. Then you should dose potassium sulfate to make up for the reduction in potassium.

Iron chelate isn't essential, but many people feel sure it is very good for the plants. You could just dose more CSM+B and get more iron that way.


----------



## inkslinger

60~80gal
50% H20 change-weekly
3/4 Tsp-KN03 3x a week
3/16 Tsp-KH2P04 3x a week
1 Tsp-GH booster once a week
15ml 3/16Tsp-Trace 3x a week
Optional
4-8ml-Fe/Iron 3x a week

I have a 110g tank an I want to do my water changes every 2 week should I do this Regime 2x a week? 
It does now show Dry Fert measurement for CSM+B or SO4 or Fe


----------



## Dempsey

inkslinger said:


> 60~80gal
> 50% H20 change-weekly
> 3/4 Tsp-KN03 3x a week
> 3/16 Tsp-KH2P04 3x a week
> 1 Tsp-GH booster once a week
> 15ml *3/16Tsp-Trace 3x a week(this is for CSM+B)*
> Optional
> 4-8ml-Fe/Iron 3x a week
> 
> I have a 110g tank an I want to do my water changes every 2 week should I do this Regime 2x a week?
> It does now show Dry Fert measurement for CSM+B or SO4 or Fe


See above.

As for SO4, k2so4 would be dosed 1/4tsp 3x per week for the above.

Fe is also in the OP as on how to mix and dose, though, some dose more.


----------



## evrk

Quick question... is it ok to just mix all of the different types of ferts together at the right ratios in water and add a small amount of the solution every day?


----------



## Hoppy

evrk said:


> Quick question... is it ok to just mix all of the different types of ferts together at the right ratios in water and add a small amount of the solution every day?


It is only OK if you leave either the iron or the phosphate out of the mix. If both are in the mix, in the concentrations that make a mix worthwhile, they combine into an insoluble precipitate, which then just settles to the bottom of the bottle and never gets into the tank water.


----------



## lwinpet

*dosing question*

any recommendation on where to get the "trace" dosing? any particular brand?

also, what is gh booster? where can i get that?

thanks,

peter


----------



## Mannie Bothans

Well, After a few weeks of watching my plants not do so hot with only aquasoil and root tabs, I finally ordered: 
1 / 2 Pound of Plantex CSM + B 
1 Pound of Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) 
1 / 2 Pound of Mono Potassium Phosphate (KH2PO4) 
1 Pound of Potassium Sulfate (K2SO4) 

I have been doing weekly 30% water changes in my 56 gallon tank with low light, two goldfish, and no added CO2-- and I have no idea how much of each I'll need to dose. Can I dose only once a week after water changes? How much do I dose each day (or each week)?

Can anyone point me in the right direction?


----------



## Mannie Bothans

*Is my math correct?*

Okay, I just saw in another post that Tom Barr used 1/10 EI in a tank with no added CO2, so using http://calc.petalphile.com/ and calculating for EI and calculating at 1/10 of that and using 40Gallons (assuming displacement for my huge piece of driftwood and extra thick substrate layers), I get 

46.3 mg of Plantex CSM + B 
148.1 mg of KNO3
37.9 mg of KH2PO4
286.8 mg of K2SO4

But if 10x all of this would give me 
3.78 ppm K from the KNO3 and 0.72 ppm of K from KH2PO4, then I don't need to hit 8.5ppm as a target for K from K2SO4, right? I'd only need to hit 4 ppm of K from K2SO4, right? Therefore, I'd only need 1.35 grams of K2SO4, right? 

So, I'm guessing that my dosage would look more like 
46.3 mg of Plantex CSM + B 
148.1 mg of KNO3
37.9 mg of KH2PO4
135 mg of K2SO4

Now I just need to figure out how to convert mg into teaspoons.




Mannie Bothans said:


> Well, After a few weeks of watching my plants not do so hot with only aquasoil and root tabs, I finally ordered:
> 1 / 2 Pound of Plantex CSM + B
> 1 Pound of Potassium Nitrate (KNO3)
> 1 / 2 Pound of Mono Potassium Phosphate (KH2PO4)
> 1 Pound of Potassium Sulfate (K2SO4)
> 
> I have been doing weekly 30% water changes in my 56 gallon tank with low light, two goldfish, and no added CO2-- and I have no idea how much of each I'll need to dose. Can I dose only once a week after water changes? How much do I dose each day (or each week)?
> 
> Can anyone point me in the right direction?


----------



## florini

Using http://calc.petalphile.com I entered 40g, dyi, KNO3, dry dosing, and EI low light, and the output was 2.469 grams of KNO3.

I only calculated KNO3 but you can do the others as well.

As for conversion mg >>> tsp, you can look up a substance in Wikipedia and look for its density (it's given in g/cm3). Then, if you take a quantity in grams and divide it by the density, you get the volume. E.g. the density for KNO3 is 2.109 g/cm3, so 2.469 grams of KNO3 have a volume of

2.469 / 2.109 = 1.17 cm3

A cm3 is the same thing as a milliliter and a teaspoon is 5 ml, so that gives about 1/4 tsp (no need for more precision, and EI's principle is to round up/slightly overdose).


----------



## audioaficionado

You guys are making this way harder than necessary. Your precision is an order of magnitude more than you need.


----------



## Mannie Bothans

Extremely helpful. Thank you. 

So EI low light = no added CO2?

There's a big difference in 1.481 grams and 2.469 grams.

Thanks again!


----------



## Mannie Bothans

audioaficionado said:


> You guys are trying to make this harder than it has to be. Your precision is an order of magnitude more than you need.


I have made so many mistakes by getting things out of balance already, I just don't want to fry all my plants by trial and error. 

Just trying to find a good starting point. From there, I will adjust based on what they need. 

Easy is fine by me. Ballpark is fine by me. But I just need to know how big a ballpark is. Not sure this really helps though, because
1.481 g of KNO3 (KNO3 density is 2.109 g/cm3) so 1.481/2.109 = 0.7022285443338075 and that divided by 5 = 0.14 of a tsp
0.379 g of KH2PO4 (KH2PO4 density is 2.338 g/cm3) so 0.379/2.338 = 0.1621043627031651 and that divided by 5 = 0.032 tsp
1.35 g of K2SO4 (K2SO4 density is 2.66 g/cm3) so 1.35/2.66 = 0.5075187969924812 and that divided by 5 = 0.1 tsp
46.3 mg of Plantex CSM + B density = ?


----------



## Hoppy

Mannie Bothans said:


> Extremely helpful. Thank you.
> 
> So EI low light = no added CO2?
> 
> There's a big difference in 1.481 grams and 2.469 grams.
> 
> Thanks again!


Where EI dosing is concerned, both of those are the same measurement - 2 grams. And, we use measuring spoons, not mass balances. Estimative implies that the amounts are very rough amounts. Note that the tank sizes given for each table vary from 20-40 gallons, etc., a 2 to 1 size difference.


----------



## Mannie Bothans

That's why I'm so confused...

I can't wrap my mind around trying to round up .032 tsp to a real measuring utensil.


----------



## florini

0.032 equals roughly 1/32 and that's a "smidgen". You can find smidgen measuring spoons in many kitchen stores (including online e.g. Amazon etc).


----------



## Mannie Bothans

Doh! Thanks!

So, if that is 3x/wk, could I get away with multiplying times three and dosing once a week? (With no added CO2 and relatively low light).


----------



## florini

According to this, yes you can


----------



## moto

I've been having issues keeping my iron high enought with the recomended Flourish and CSM+B dosing. Which in turn has made me giveup on the plantex and go back to dosing flourish + seachems iron. From what i understand most of u do not do this? Should i just dose plantex or flourish untill my iron is what i want?


----------



## audioaficionado

I just added DTPA iron to CSM+B and I still have up to x3 times or more leeway if I wanted since with EI you do weekly decants to keep things from building up.


----------



## moto

Well my dosing regime isn't really estimative. I test po4,nitrate and iron. I
Mix npk together and test at the end of the week then tweak the mixture as needed.


----------



## audioaficionado

Those inexpensive test kits are iffy at best. I wouldn't rely on them too much.


----------



## thefisherman

florini said:


> 0.032 equals roughly 1/32 and that's a "smidgen". You can find smidgen measuring spoons in many kitchen stores (including online e.g. Amazon etc).





Sent from my iPhone


----------



## mugsy

hello there, im just about to start dosing dry ferts in my planted tank, i just have a couple of questions. i tested my tap waters ph and it is up to 7.6. do i not need to add mgso4 or gh booster.? my next question, my tap waters phosphates level is at 2.0, do i not need to add kh2po4. thanks for help. mugsy


----------



## doc bonsai

cdfscsedwedfrfcdfdefswdfsdfdsef√[censored]a4dae sed


----------



## xxbenjamminxx

A quick question if I may. I would consider my tank to have a heavier bioload, so with the recommended EI dose for my 75g tank the Nitrates are staying pretty high (around 40ppm before the next scheduled dose). So I was gonna start cutting back on my KNO3 dosing. If I do cut back will I have to up the dose of K2SO4 to compensate for what I would be losing from the additional KNO3? When I tried this earlier I seemed to start getting pinholes in some of my plants, mainly the A. Reineckii (spelling??).

Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## ozzychas

*question*

Is the tsp powder form or liquid for this


----------



## BubSsnooki

hello question about making solutions in a bottle....about 38 gallon tank ,,,moderately planted ...high light ...co2 pressurized... need to know how much to put in one 250 ml bottle of kno3...how much to put k2s04 in another 250 ml bottle.....how much kh2p04 to put in another 250 ml bottle...how much plantex csm + b in another 250 ml bottle to dose 2- 3 weekly with a 50% water change


----------



## SQWIB

Very interesting thread, I read through it until my brain got numb

Here's what I have been doing for a 90 gallon

+/- ¼ tsp K2So4 3x a week M-W-F-Sun.
+/- 3/4 tsp KN03 3x a week M-W-F-Sun.
+/- ¼ tsp KH2P04 3x a week M-W-F-Sun
+/- ¼ tsp (20ml) Trace Elements 3x a week is this CSM+B ? Tues-Thurs-Sat
35 gallon water change weekly usually on a Sunday, If I do the WC on a Saturday, I'll dose after the water change.
Current occupants:

15 Zebra Danio
2 Rummy nose tetra,10 died the first day. (want to build these guys up again)
1 Upside Down Cat 1
1 Green Cory Cat 1
15 Tetra Rasbora
2 skirt tetras
5 Crossocheilus siamensis Siamese Algae Eater Crossocheilus Langei
1 Crossocheilus siamensis Siamese Algae Eate Crossocheilus oblongus
1 Female Bristle nose Pleco
1 Male Bristle nose Pleco
picking up 3 Bamboo Shrimp next week.


Monterey Series Stand - Red Oak
Monterey Series Canopy - Red Oak
90 gallon perfecto tank (black trim) 48" x 18" x 24" high
Marineland Perfecto Glass Canopy
Two Rena 723 Filstar XP4 Canister Filter
API BIO-CHEM STARS 80
Coralife Super Luft Air Pump SL-65
2 blue L.E.D. Bubblers
1 green L.E.D. Bubbler
More New Live plants including color and ground cover plants.
Co2 Aquatek with JBL Bubble counter 10 lb tank and Spio III CO2 Diffuser - Glass Reactor (5 bps)
2 Aqueon 06109 Pro Heaters Submersible Aquarium Heater, 250-Watt tank temp 79 - 81
Designs by nature 3d Deluxe Back ground BJ931 Bulu Point
AquaticLife T5 HO Dual Lamp Fixtures, fresh water 4 x54w 2x 6,000K Lamp 2x 54W Roseate Lamp
Substrate 120lbs eco-complete 60 pounds not added yet

Co2 comes on at with first set of lights. for 8 hours 2nd set of lights come on for 5 hours.
Co2 started 3/10/2012
Co2 kicks off with lights then the Leds come on with a 24" bubbler for 4 hours

Just started adding fertilizers this week 3/14/2012

Plants

Moneywort (Bacopa monnieri) Water Hyssop, Bacopa
Radican, Marble Queen - (Echinodorus cordifolius)
Anubias Congensis - (Anubias afzelii)
Hornwort - (Ceratophyllum demursum)
Anacharis - (Egeria densa)
Micro Sword- (Lilaeopsis novae-zelandiae) ?? or Lilaeopsis brasiliensis
Anubias Nana - (Ceratophyllum demursum)
Carolina Fanwort - Cabomba caroliniana
Melon Sword - Echinodorus osiris
Pilea cadierei Aluminium plant Non-aquatic plant

I had a real bad BGA problem but it seems to be under control.



















Does this seem ok.
Should I be adding Fe
The plants are growing fairly well.
Is CSM+B trace elements?


----------



## Master503

Hello, I have a 25Gallons tank with low light plants. Should I follow the steps from:

20~40gal
50% H20 change-weekly
1/4 Tsp-KN03 3x a week
1/16 Tsp-KH2P04 3x aweek
1/2 Tsp-GH booster once a week
5ml or 1/16Tsp-Trace 3x a week
Optional
1-2ml-Fe/Iron 3x a week

?? if so, how to find out how much 1/2 Tsp, 1/4tsp, and 1/16tsp per ml ?


----------



## carpalstunna

do you have liquid fertilizers or are you talking about mixing your own dry with water?

if you dont have alot of plants and do not have co2 or med/high lighting, I would dose less than that. You have inbalance if you do.


----------



## Master503

Hi Carpal, I'm talking about liquid fertilizers


----------



## florini

Check out Wet's calculator, http://calc.petalphile.com , it will advise you on dosing.


----------



## VivaDaWolf

Is doing EI only for high tech/CO2? I'm debating picking up the CSM+B from GLA but I have 3 low techs, a 2.5, 5.5, and 72g using Flourish/Excel...almost running out and it seems like dry ferts are worth the money- I just dont want to do 50% pwc every week (maybe 25-50 every 2 weeks)...is this still doable or am I looking at another kind of dosing regime?


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

VivaDaWolf said:


> Is doing EI only for high tech/CO2? I'm debating picking up the CSM+B from GLA but I have 3 low techs, a 2.5, 5.5, and 72g using Flourish/Excel...almost running out and it seems like dry ferts are worth the money- I just dont want to do 50% pwc every week (maybe 25-50 every 2 weeks)...is this still doable or am I looking at another kind of dosing regime?


just cut the dosing in half to start.. or start full EI dosing and test. if ur not using it all by water change time which you probably wont. then lower ur dosages.. EI is made simply to provide NON growth limiting nutrient supply in all growth situations. it doesnt mean that the plants will use all that u put in. just that the plants won't run out of nutrients to use while growing


----------



## will5

I have taken a step back from the hobby for a couple of years now and I have a couple questions. When did K2SO4 get removed and GH booster get added to EI dosing? What was the purpose or thoughts were behind doing so?


----------



## nokturnalkid

will5 said:


> I have taken a step back from the hobby for a couple of years now and I have a couple questions. When did K2SO4 get removed and GH booster get added to EI dosing? What was the purpose or thoughts were behind doing so?


It's been a couple years since the k2so4 has been removed. The reason is that you get k from kno3 and kh2po4. The rest of the k needed for ei comes from gh booster, since most gh booster comes with it. You also get some ca and mg from the booster. Since most people do not test for ca and mg, the amounts will get you enough for the week just in case ca or mg is a bit lacking in your tap. So basically, your are just getting k from another source, along with ca and mg.


----------



## will5

Ok next question. What if you have liquid rock already, should I still does the GH booster? The reason I ask because our water is perfect for afarican cichlids straight from the tap.


----------



## nokturnalkid

If you have hard water, it won't harm anything if you add gh booster but it is not needed. Just add k2so4 to make up for whatever kno3 and kh2po4 is lacking. You do get quite a bit of k from kh2po4 and it should be enough but it will not hurt to have a little extra k.


----------



## Riffs

I just started dosing ferts according to what i found in this post. Its only been about five days, so not much to report. Hopefully it will improve my plant quality. And a big thanks to everyone for all the info and help.

Riffs
37 gal.
moderately planted
4 Rainbowfish
2GBRs
2 Peppered Corys
3 Ottos
1 Angel
1 BN Pleco


----------



## mojof1

can someone please tell me if spring water can be used to make a dissolved solution (for KNO3, mono potassium phosphate & CSM+B)?

i was sure when i picked up the water from the store it was distilled but of course when i get home i realise it isn't


----------



## Hoppy

You can use tap water if you wish. Remember you are only dosing an ounce or two of the fert mix, so the quality of the tap water is immaterial. If you can drink it, you can use it.


----------



## mojof1

Hoppy said:


> You can use tap water if you wish. Remember you are only dosing an ounce or two of the fert mix, so the quality of the tap water is immaterial. If you can drink it, you can use it.



cool thanks


----------



## schomin

Does doing water changes more than once a week affect the outcome of the EI daily regime?


----------



## trenton

This is my planned dosing and water change schedule for my 60P that will be started up at the end of July. It was mentioned by another member that I should post it here for other peoples information.


trenton said:


> Updated planned dosing schedule:
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/7394405462/ http://www.flickr.com/people/[email protected]/


----------



## benjaminleebates

http://www.greenleafaquariums.com/aq...ertilizer.html
What specific packages would you recommend from this site for a medium light, with carpet plants. I am running CO2.


----------



## maxtcee

Ihave a 180 gallon and if I even try to put half of the doses fertz recommended for my size gallon tank my fish are gasping at the top for air even with an airstone


----------



## Hoppy

Maxtcee, are you using teaspoons or tablespoons? The measurements are in teaspoons, not tablespoons, which would be 3X more. Even with that I doubt that the fish would notice the fertilizers - these are very small concentrations. Are you using CO2? High CO2 can certainly send the fish to the surface.


----------



## maxtcee

Yes I know I'm using teaspoons and I just recently started using co2 but they were going to the top before the co2
I just can't understand it


----------



## lamiskool

I am very new to this and would like some help...Ok so first what I have. A 55 fairly heavily planted tank with fish. I also have a co2 injection set up. I need help with how to fertilize my plants. What I have around is 
Flourish Iron 
(1% Fe)

Flourish Potassium 
(5% K20)

Flourish Comprehensive Supplement 
.07% Nitrogen 
.01% P2O5 
.37% K2O
.14% Ca
.11% Mg
.27 Sulfur
.009 Boron
1.15 Chlorine
.0004% Cobalt
.0001% Copper
.32% Fe
.0118% Manganese
.13% Sodium
.0007% Zinc 
.0009% Molybdenum

I also just ordered some Plantex CSM + B. I was wondering if I need to order Potassium Nitrate (KNO3), Mono Potassium Phosphate (KH2PO4), Potassium Sulfate (K2SO4) or is the Flourish Potassium enough? Also for some of my plants that need root tabs am I supposed to put multiple tabs near the plants or just a few spread out anywhere in the tank? Lastly when/what order should I be adding everything. Thankyou in advance.


----------



## rk923

I have a question about the trace ferts and how to dose them. Is it better to mix the solution with water and dose them that way, or just add dry fertilizer directly into the tank? I see that the first page says "10ml or 1/8 tspn of CSM+B" (I have a 55g tank). Just curious what people do and if anyone has had better luck with one way over the other...

Thanks!
Ryan


----------



## Aulonocara_Freak

Can someone help me out?
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2848098#post2848098


----------



## Steve106

Would this same regiment be successful without pressurized CO2 and only Flourish Excel?


----------



## Hoppy

Steve106 said:


> Would this same regiment be successful without pressurized CO2 and only Flourish Excel?


The dosages listed in the tables are starting points, and are probably adequate for high light, with CO2 tanks. But, the tables can be adjusted for other light levels. If you have low light, and no CO2, you obviously need much smaller dosages. For that you can cut the table amounts in half, and probably have enough by dosing only once a week. And, if you have very high light, with CO2 maxed out, you can increase the dosages if you find it helps the plants grow better. This dosing method is a concept, not a set of hard and fast rules.


----------



## Steve106

Hoppy said:


> The dosages listed in the tables are starting points, and are probably adequate for high light, with CO2 tanks. But, the tables can be adjusted for other light levels. If you have low light, and no CO2, you obviously need much smaller dosages. For that you can cut the table amounts in half, and probably have enough by dosing only once a week. And, if you have very high light, with CO2 maxed out, you can increase the dosages if you find it helps the plants grow better. This dosing method is a concept, not a set of hard and fast rules.


Thanks for the info. As it is right now I am running two t5HO 36inch x 38 watts each only 2 inches off the water on a 16-18 inch deep 30 gallon tank. I am pretty sure this is high lighting and I have only been using EXCEL and Flourish Comprehensive with the tank. Some algae...but far from out of control or unsightly.


----------



## prasantkmrs

i have a solution of 80 gm of csm+b into 500 ml water ,what should be the EI dosing for my 220 liter tank


----------



## newbieplanter

Besides buying ferts from known dealers, if I got ferts from a person who had planted tanks how can I tell with no labels on tha bags which is which?



Georgiadawgger said:


> Good stuff...my hand was getting tired too from typing that all the time. The plantex CSM recipe is also important for folks to understand here.
> 
> It seems as though most people have been mixing 1 TABLEspoon with 250 ml of water or double that (2 TBS in 500 ml). That may work fine for most. At times I wish I were still in school to "borrow" a little bit of HCl.
> 
> Personally, I always end up with a mold in my bottle even though I put it in the fridge so I mix 1/2 TABLE with 250 ml of water and dose DOUBLE the required amount. So....in my 65 g tank I would dose 20 mL a day instead of 10.


I noticed that when this was written/typed the use of K2SO4 wasn't used in any of the tanks in the first instructions GH booster was used but the ones near the end of the original post shows the use of it?



prasantkmrs said:


> i have a solution of 80 gm of csm+b into 500 ml water ,what should be the EI dosing for my 220 liter tank


I see your still waiting for answers too, are your plants still alive or did u go get flourish which might be easier to get answers from? LOL

I'm with u on that



dr3ww3rd said:


> I am trying to figure out how much of the ferts I should dose on my 5.5 gallon tank with 24w pc and diy co2. Does the schedule I have look right? If so what amounts should I dose?
> 
> Sunday - 50% water change then dose GH Booster and Excel
> Monday - KNO3, KH2PO4, Excel
> Tuesday - Flourish, Excel
> Wednesday - KNO3, KH2PO4, Excel
> Thursday - Flourish, Excel
> Friday - KNO3, KH2PO4, Excel
> Saturday - Flourish, Excel
> 
> ....I am beyond confused with all the ppm and what amount to dose etc..etc..etc..


I just mix all dry ferts an dose 3x a week an I use a 1/4 tsp of CSM-B and 1/4 Iron
70gal
4 bulb T5 set up 10" off the top of my tank 
Pressurized CO2 drop checker liquid is light green 
5 B rainbows
6 ots
8 corys
About 10-14 tetra red eye,black mix
10-14 amanos

Java fern,rotala C. n Bangladesh, mosses, 2-3 swords small size, Anubis, dwarf sag, japonica,


----------



## newbieplanter

This helps me a lot now I have something to follow only my tank is 70gal but its custom so I might be alright plus I got more light an run a little longer well ill see what happens in a few weeks. Thanks 







Tacoshooter said:


> Thought I'd add my two cents in because I've finally locked in my 75 gallon to the point where I think the dosing is stable and plants are thriving. Maybe someone else can use this.
> 
> This tank has pressurized CO2 and 324W of T5 lighting, which is kept on for 8.5 hours each day. Filtration is through a Eheim 2126 and a 2213 (which is used for water current and a utility filter, i.e. UV but normally run empty). A Pinpoint controller is used 24/7 for CO2 regulation (calibration checked bi-weekly).
> 
> Plant load is heavy with a number of stems, although there is quite a bit of slower-growing plants like blyxa japonica.
> 
> Input water is 100% RO, due to the fact that our water both fluctuates and is basically liquid rock. With the controller involved, I like to be very certain of my parameters. With all that said, here's what I do/dose:
> 
> 
> 50% WC on Sundays, RO water rebuilt with 1 tsp. Barr's GH Booster and 1/2 tsp of baking soda. Nutrient dosing is done following the water change.
> Su, Tu, Th: 1 tsp KNO3, 1/8 tsp KH2PO4, 10 ml Excel.
> M, W, F: 10 ml Plantex from a stock solution of 2 tbsp in 500 ml of water.
> 
> Certainly nothing groundbreaking, but I hope this helps someone. I also try to actively remove any dead or dying leaves, or anything afflicted with algae.


----------



## newbieplanter

When dosing the GH booster or Baking Soda 1x a week/water change am I aiming for a range of 120-180ppm or something depending on the tank size, how many plants etc?






Wö£fëñxXx said:


> For higher light, Co2 enriched tank's that are moderately
> to heavy planted.
> 
> Add o2 to your tank daily, by either air stone or surface
> agitation.
> 
> *Dry Dosing...* Use measuring spoon's found at
> most department store's in the utensils section, scoop
> appropriate amount and toss in the tank, simple as that!
> 
> I use to keep an old travel mug under the tank, and
> keep fertilizers in large spice bottles, scoop appropriate
> amount into cup, dip in tank, stir and serve.
> Tsp=Teaspoon
> 
> **Dry Dosing Plantex CSM+B...*
> Converting 1 tablespoon to 250ml H20,
> 20 ml = 1/4 teaspoon of dry fertilizer.
> There are 12 - 1/4 teaspoons dissolved
> 250ml/12=20.83ml.
> 
> *20~40gal*
> 50% H20 change-weekly
> 1/4 Tsp-KN03 3x a week
> 1/16 Tsp-KH2P04 3x aweek
> 1/2 Tsp-GH booster once a week
> 5ml or 1/16Tsp-Trace 3x a week
> _Optional_
> 1-2ml-Fe/Iron 3x a week
> 
> *"If dosing a 10gal highlight C02 enriched tank,
> divide above regime x2"*
> 
> *40~60gal*
> 50% H20 change-weekly
> 1/2 Tsp-KN03 3x a week
> 1/8 Tsp-KH2P04 3x a week
> 3/4 Tsp-GH booster once a week
> 10ml or 1/8Tsp-Trace 3x a week
> _Optional_
> 2-4ml-Fe/Iron 3x a week
> 
> *60~80gal*
> 50% H20 change-weekly
> 3/4 Tsp-KN03 3x a week
> 3/16 Tsp-KH2P04 3x a week
> 1 Tsp-GH booster once a week
> 15ml 3/16Tsp-Trace 3x a week
> _Optional_
> 4-8ml-Fe/Iron 3x a week
> 
> *Mixing Trace Element and Iron,* Plantex CSM+B,
> Fe/Iron Chelate 10%- mix 1Tbsp per 250ml water-
> one cap full=5ml
> 
> *Adding Sodium Bicarb/baking soda:*
> One teaspoon baking soda will increase the kH of
> 50 liters of water approx. 13 gallons by 4 degrees.
> 
> *Algae Issue's?*
> Increase C02, even if you have to use Flourish Excel,
> and decrease the light, raise it up off the tank,
> burn it less hour's etc, then re-evaluate the C02.
> 
> Clean & prune, all the plant's, manually remove as much
> algae as you can, good condition's will slow it's growth,
> even stop growth, you will need to remove the remaining
> algae by hand...
> 
> *Make sure you're C02 is at optimal condition's.*
> 
> *GDA:* Cause-Too much light, reduce intensity
> 
> *BBA:* Add more C02/ Reduce light intensity and or duration.
> 
> *BGA:* add N03 and 02/oxygen.
> 
> *Fish gasping? 02 Issue's?*
> Increase surface movement/splash, for night time/lights out,
> decrease for opposite, if having 02 issue's surface
> movement/splash is good.
> So a simple lift of the spray bar or lily pipe to break the
> surface will remedy that.
> 
> *Good article on Biochemical Oxygen Demand*
> 
> *BOD* http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/278839-post41.html
> 
> *'Fertilizers for sale'*
> 
> http://www.pfertz.com/
> 
> http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/
> 
> http://www.greenleafaquariums.com/aquarium-fertilizer.html
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> This chart is to be used "ASSUMING" proper lighting levels are
> being met. Without adequate lighting, this chart can't help you.
> Check your bulbs and other threads on lighting to re-assure that
> you have a proper light set-up for whatever method of aquatic
> gardening you wish to achieve.
> 
> The Green represents growth, in group 1 we see that plant growth
> is hindered because Micro nutrients aren't being met. Although all
> other demands are given in plentiful amounts, growth is stunted by
> the lacking nutrient.
> 
> Group2 is meant to demonstrate low amounts of nutrient balance =
> slow growth. Lighting will drive the plants to soak up nutrients to no
> end. They take and take depending on the intensity of light with no
> real control. If you limit the amount of nutrients you place inside the
> water column and substrate, you limit their growth, no matter how
> long you run your lights.
> 
> Group 3 represents maximum growth given that all nutrients are in
> abundance within a level tolerable to other inhabitants. The EI
> method ensures that all nutrients are provided within tolerable
> amounts to fauna, as well as a bit excess for flora, all excess is
> removed with a water change every week.
> 
> Credit to Sarge for graph and text.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> An example of dosing 3x a week on my 46g tank,
> This is what I do.
> 
> Sunday-----Day1)Prune,Preen,Clean glass inside, 50% or more H20
> change, vac/sub, 1/2Tsp-KN03, 1/8-ish/Tsp-KH2P04,1/8Tsp-K2S04,
> clean glass on outside.
> Monday-----Day2) 10ml Trace, 2ml-Fe
> Tuesday----Day3) 1/2Tsp-KN03, 1/8ish/Tsp-KH2P04,1/8Tsp-K2S04.
> Wednesday-Day4) See day2
> Thursday---Day5) See day3
> Friday------Day6) See day2
> Saturday---Day7) Nothing or prune, or walk the dog etc.
> Sunday-----Day8) See day1
> 
> Thank you cbennet for the handout you made available
> to the public during your presentation at a local meeting...Kudo's!
> This can either be printed directly off the screen, or
> you can drag and drop it to your desktop for printing.


----------



## newbieplanter

newbieplanter said:


> When dosing the GH booster or Baking Soda 1x a week/water change am I aiming for a range of 120-180ppm or something depending on the tank size, how many plants etc?


HELLO IS ANYONE OUT THERE? BUMP to the head


----------



## germanyt

OK so I've read lots here and am planning on ordering all my ferts from GLA in the next couple days. My question before I do so is whether this is a world class planted tank fert regimen or just a 'pretty good but you've got a lot to learn' regimen. I reckon sinced I'm getting my new light next week and will add pressurized co2 shortly thereafter (currently on DIY) I will take the 3rd step toward a very heavily planted tank and fertilize properly.

This is what I plan on for my 25T under a dual T5HO 24" and 30ppm co2.

20~40gal
50% H20 change-weekly
1/4 Tsp-KN03 3x a week
1/16 Tsp-KH2P04 3x aweek
1/2 Tsp-GH booster once a week 
5ml or 1/16Tsp-Trace 3x a week
Optional
1-2ml-Fe/Iron 3x a week


----------



## Darkblade48

germanyt said:


> My question before I do so is whether this is a world class planted tank fert regimen or just a 'pretty good but you've got a lot to learn' regimen.
> 
> This is what I plan on for my 25T under a dual T5HO 24" and 30ppm co2.
> 
> 20~40gal
> 50% H20 change-weekly
> 1/4 Tsp-KN03 3x a week
> 1/16 Tsp-KH2P04 3x aweek
> 1/2 Tsp-GH booster once a week
> 5ml or 1/16Tsp-Trace 3x a week
> Optional
> 1-2ml-Fe/Iron 3x a week


This looks like your standard Estimative Index (EI) dosing regimen, so it should be fine.

Of course, as with any fertilization regimen, it only serves as a basis for dosing, and you can always tweak them to suit your needs.


----------



## newbieplanter

Question: when mixing the CSM+B and Iron do I use 1 Tbsp of each or 2 of each I'm mixing with 500ml h20.?






Wö£fëñxXx said:


> For higher light, Co2 enriched tank's that are moderately
> to heavy planted.
> 
> Add o2 to your tank daily, by either air stone or surface
> agitation.
> 
> *Dry Dosing...* Use measuring spoon's found at
> most department store's in the utensils section, scoop
> appropriate amount and toss in the tank, simple as that!
> 
> I use to keep an old travel mug under the tank, and
> keep fertilizers in large spice bottles, scoop appropriate
> amount into cup, dip in tank, stir and serve.
> Tsp=Teaspoon
> 
> **Dry Dosing Plantex CSM+B...*
> Converting 1 tablespoon to 250ml H20,
> 20 ml = 1/4 teaspoon of dry fertilizer.
> There are 12 - 1/4 teaspoons dissolved
> 250ml/12=20.83ml.
> 
> *20~40gal*
> 50% H20 change-weekly
> 1/4 Tsp-KN03 3x a week
> 1/16 Tsp-KH2P04 3x aweek
> 1/2 Tsp-GH booster once a week
> 5ml or 1/16Tsp-Trace 3x a week
> _Optional_
> 1-2ml-Fe/Iron 3x a week
> 
> *"If dosing a 10gal highlight C02 enriched tank,
> divide above regime x2"*
> 
> *40~60gal*
> 50% H20 change-weekly
> 1/2 Tsp-KN03 3x a week
> 1/8 Tsp-KH2P04 3x a week
> 3/4 Tsp-GH booster once a week
> 10ml or 1/8Tsp-Trace 3x a week
> _Optional_
> 2-4ml-Fe/Iron 3x a week
> 
> *60~80gal*
> 50% H20 change-weekly
> 3/4 Tsp-KN03 3x a week
> 3/16 Tsp-KH2P04 3x a week
> 1 Tsp-GH booster once a week
> 15ml 3/16Tsp-Trace 3x a week
> _Optional_
> 4-8ml-Fe/Iron 3x a week
> 
> *Mixing Trace Element and Iron,* Plantex CSM+B,
> Fe/Iron Chelate 10%- mix 1Tbsp per 250ml water-
> one cap full=5ml
> 
> *Adding Sodium Bicarb/baking soda:*
> One teaspoon baking soda will increase the kH of
> 50 liters of water approx. 13 gallons by 4 degrees.
> 
> *Algae Issue's?*
> Increase C02, even if you have to use Flourish Excel,
> and decrease the light, raise it up off the tank,
> burn it less hour's etc, then re-evaluate the C02.
> 
> Clean & prune, all the plant's, manually remove as much
> algae as you can, good condition's will slow it's growth,
> even stop growth, you will need to remove the remaining
> algae by hand...
> 
> *Make sure you're C02 is at optimal condition's.*
> 
> *GDA:* Cause-Too much light, reduce intensity
> 
> *BBA:* Add more C02/ Reduce light intensity and or duration.
> 
> *BGA:* add N03 and 02/oxygen.
> 
> *Fish gasping? 02 Issue's?*
> Increase surface movement/splash, for night time/lights out,
> decrease for opposite, if having 02 issue's surface
> movement/splash is good.
> So a simple lift of the spray bar or lily pipe to break the
> surface will remedy that.
> 
> *Good article on Biochemical Oxygen Demand*
> 
> *BOD* http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/278839-post41.html
> 
> *'Fertilizers for sale'*
> 
> http://www.pfertz.com/
> 
> http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/
> 
> http://www.greenleafaquariums.com/aquarium-fertilizer.html
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> This chart is to be used "ASSUMING" proper lighting levels are
> being met. Without adequate lighting, this chart can't help you.
> Check your bulbs and other threads on lighting to re-assure that
> you have a proper light set-up for whatever method of aquatic
> gardening you wish to achieve.
> 
> The Green represents growth, in group 1 we see that plant growth
> is hindered because Micro nutrients aren't being met. Although all
> other demands are given in plentiful amounts, growth is stunted by
> the lacking nutrient.
> 
> Group2 is meant to demonstrate low amounts of nutrient balance =
> slow growth. Lighting will drive the plants to soak up nutrients to no
> end. They take and take depending on the intensity of light with no
> real control. If you limit the amount of nutrients you place inside the
> water column and substrate, you limit their growth, no matter how
> long you run your lights.
> 
> Group 3 represents maximum growth given that all nutrients are in
> abundance within a level tolerable to other inhabitants. The EI
> method ensures that all nutrients are provided within tolerable
> amounts to fauna, as well as a bit excess for flora, all excess is
> removed with a water change every week.
> 
> Credit to Sarge for graph and text.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> An example of dosing 3x a week on my 46g tank,
> This is what I do.
> 
> Sunday-----Day1)Prune,Preen,Clean glass inside, 50% or more H20
> change, vac/sub, 1/2Tsp-KN03, 1/8-ish/Tsp-KH2P04,1/8Tsp-K2S04,
> clean glass on outside.
> Monday-----Day2) 10ml Trace, 2ml-Fe
> Tuesday----Day3) 1/2Tsp-KN03, 1/8ish/Tsp-KH2P04,1/8Tsp-K2S04.
> Wednesday-Day4) See day2
> Thursday---Day5) See day3
> Friday------Day6) See day2
> Saturday---Day7) Nothing or prune, or walk the dog etc.
> Sunday-----Day8) See day1
> 
> Thank you cbennet for the handout you made available
> to the public during your presentation at a local meeting...Kudo's!
> This can either be printed directly off the screen, or
> you can drag and drop it to your desktop for printing.


----------



## Darkblade48

The way that the article is written, I would interpret it as either 1 tablespoon of iron chelate *or* 1 tablespoon of CSM+B. 

If you want to dose both, then you can add *one of each.*


----------



## newbieplanter

Thought I was done but last question, this is what I'm dosing my 70gal high light tank with the same as this beside the GH booster n bakin soda. All plants are fine an thriving but I do notice that when I grab a stem on accident it actually snaps no bending at all not even a little bit. Can anyone help with what is causing this?


----------



## jfynyson

newbieplanter said:


> Thought I was done but last question, this is what I'm dosing my 70gal high light tank with the same as this beside the GH booster n bakin soda. All plants are fine an thriving but I do notice that when I grab a stem on accident it actually snaps no bending at all not even a little bit. Can anyone help with what is causing this?


I've always heard potassium is what helps strengthen the plants so maybe a little more would help here ? You can have plants not showing visual evidence of K+ deficiencies b/c you have just enough but too little for physical health.


----------



## Hoppy

newbieplanter said:


> Thought I was done but last question, this is what I'm dosing my 70gal high light tank with the same as this beside the GH booster n bakin soda. All plants are fine an thriving but I do notice that when I grab a stem on accident it actually snaps no bending at all not even a little bit. Can anyone help with what is causing this?


Many stem plants can survive best if they can break off pieces which drift away to root themselves somewhere else. It is possible that the ones that snap easily are the healthiest. But, it is also possible that the easy breaking is a response to less than good living conditions where they are, which would mean those that snap easily are the least healthy.


----------



## newbieplanter

jfynyson said:


> I've always heard potassium is what helps strengthen the plants so maybe a little more would help here ? You can have plants not showing visual evidence of K+ deficiencies b/c you have just enough but too little for physical health.





Hoppy said:


> Many stem plants can survive best if they can break off pieces which drift away to root themselves somewhere else. It is possible that the ones that snap easily are the healthiest. But, it is also possible that the easy breaking is a response to less than good living conditions where they are, which would mean those that snap easily are the least healthy.


I will try both of these methods an post my results the only thing I can think of is doin more water changes per week, as for the ferts I add 2 different potassiums to my tank but as u see 1 u use 1 tsp and the other is a 1/4 tsp I can try n up the 1/4 to 1/2 or 3/4 tsp.


----------



## randpost

Just checking on some calculator calculations. Assuming I have the right plant density lighting etc. I want to make two bottles with the listed items. Does this seem right?

29g tank

Macro Bottle
Kno3 - 27.25tsp per 500ml with 5ml doses - 7.5ppm
KH2P04 - 5.3tsp per 500ml with 5ml doses - 1.3ppm
K2S04 - 37.2tsp per 500ml with 5ml doses - 7.50ppm

Micro Bottle
Plantex = 17.1tsp per 500ml with 5ml doses - .50ppm
Iron 11% = 10.1tsp per 500ml with 5ml doses - .50ppm


----------



## newbieplanter

Been useing this method for sometime now 50% WC on Sundays, Nutrient dosing is done following the water change.
Su, Tu, Th: 1 tsp KNO3, 1/8 tsp KH2PO4, 1/4 tsp K2SO4
M, W, F: 10 ml Plantex/iron from a stock solution of 2 tbsp in 500ml water. Since then i have rescaped my tank to mostly anubis from a stocked tank of stems/root feeders an moss, questiin is should i cut back on any of the ferts? Not seeing any algae or anything so i guess i would be doing it to be a cheapskate lol anyway what do u guys think?

This is my tank now.


----------



## Catf1sh

How effective is the de-gas method at measuring co2?


----------



## Hoppy

Has anyone seen data showing the range of ppm of CO2 in water exposed to room air? Without knowing that, the de-gas method for measuring CO2 isn't accurate at all. A 1pH drop caused by CO2 means the ppm of CO2 went up by a factor of 10. But, if you don't know where it started you don't know what to multiply by 10 to get the ppm of CO2. People assume it will start at 3 ppm, but I haven't seen the data to prove that.


----------



## Catf1sh

^^ I guess it's back to the good old drop checker method..


----------



## audioaficionado

I haven't checked my CO2 levels in over a year. Just eye balled the bubble rate and watch the fish. The plants will grow and choke up the whole tank in about 2-3 months if I don't do heavy pruning. Haven't used any of my dry ferts either. Just what the fish supply.


----------



## bhush

I'm dosing with EI method
3x Macros {Weekly}
3x Micros {Weekly}
Please tell me at what time I should dose 'Macros' & 
what time I should dose 'Micros'

I Turn-on the Lights at 3:00p.m. & Turn-off at 11:00p.m.
Please replyasap I'm waiting...


----------



## AnotherHobby

bhush said:


> I'm dosing with EI method
> 3x Macros {Weekly}
> 3x Micros {Weekly}
> Please tell me at what time I should dose 'Macros' &
> what time I should dose 'Micros'
> 
> I Turn-on the Lights at 3:00p.m. & Turn-off at 11:00p.m.
> Please replyasap I'm waiting...


Due to the nature and philosophy of EI, time of day is not important. That said, I run my auto-doser at 6 am so that the nutrients are well mixed throughout the water for when the daytime lights come on at noon. I don't think it makes much of a difference though.


----------



## MeCasa

Bump - this should be stickied


----------



## jerrytheplater

Georgiadawgger said:


> Personally, I always end up with a mold in my bottle even though I put it in the fridge


I know you wrote this 10 years ago, and I hope you will see this question, Can you describe the "mold" you are seeing in your trace mix?

Is it black and stringy and slimy? Or is it a film on the bottom of the container?

I am wondering if you were seeing a precipitation in the bottle. EDTA is more soluble at pH 8 than 5.


----------



## newbieplanter

jerrytheplater said:


> I know you wrote this 10 years ago, and I hope you will see this question, Can you describe the "mold" you are seeing in your trace mix?
> 
> Is it black and stringy and slimy? Or is it a film on the bottom of the container?
> 
> I am wondering if you were seeing a precipitation in the bottle. EDTA is more soluble at pH 8 than 5.


I always get some little pieces of white slime, they start at the bottom then i shake it an there all over the bottle? This is from the all in one ferts mix from aquarium ferts .com.


----------



## Dead2fall

Put some vinegar or excel in your mix next time


----------



## newbieplanter

Dead2fall said:


> Put some vinegar or excel in your mix next time


Used excell?


----------



## Speed

Can someone correct or comment on my EI Dosing schedule:

Macro Solution  
6tsp Potassium Nitrate 
2tsp MonoPotassium Phosphate 
2-4tsp Potassium Sulphate 
500ml RO water
10 Ml for each 13 Gals


Micro Solution  
1tbsp CSM+B 
500ml RO Water
10 Ml for each 13 Gals


Iron Chelate (Dosed on Micros days)
7tsp
500ml
1 ML for each 10 Gals


----------



## Padres1234

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> *20~40gal*
> 50% H20 change-weekly
> 1/4 Tsp-KN03 3x a week
> 1/16 Tsp-KH2P04 3x aweek
> 1/2 Tsp-GH booster once a week
> 5ml or 1/16Tsp-Trace 3x a week
> _Optional_
> 1-2ml-Fe/Iron 3x a week
> 
> *"If dosing a 10gal highlight C02 enriched tank,
> divide above regime x2"*


I have 2 questions about this. I am going to be having a heavily planted 10g tank eventually, but it will start off lightly planted until it grows in.

1.) Should I hold off or reduce the amount of EI dosing until the plants grow in more? Or should I go for the normal full dose to allow them to grow in quicker?

2.) According to this calculator (found from reddit's planted tank helpful guides section) it is recommending more of each nutrient than in this guide. Any clarification on this? For a 10g here is what it is recommending. 

http://prnt.sc/a4hvyo

As you can see it is quite a bit more in some areas. I don't wanna mess this up and cause my first tank to plummet so any advice helps


----------



## lifeofbrian

I have a 120 ltr tank which I would like to start dry dose with Doff sequestered iron plant tonic and potassium nitrate. The iron comes in 15g pack, the back of the Doff sequestered iron plant tonic reads:
Fertiliser declaration:
Magnesium 10.0% (6.0Mg)
Iron 2.00%
Manganese 3.00%

I have use a calculator and know that I need to dose the potassium 1/4 tsp 3x per week, but I'm have troube working out the iron.

Also:
Can accidentally I overdose and hurt my fishies?
Can I add the both at the same time?

Cheers.


----------

