# Need help setting up a 40 gallon tank



## dm76 (Mar 15, 2009)

Hi all. I am new to the forums, and originally posted something like this in the general area, but was told it might be better suited in this forum. Anyways, I am in the process of upgrading my tank to either a 40 or 50 gallon breeder (with the 36x18 footprint) and need a little advice about plants. I am thinking of getting a black gravel substrate, and probably a nice sized piece of driftwood, maybe some rocks, and some plants. I don't plan to make this fully planted like some of the beautiful pictures I see where the plants pretty much cover the whole tank. But I would like a fair amount of them, maybe some attached to the driftwood, and a few larger ones throughout. Some tall, some short and wider, just a nice variety of plants that are not too difficult to maintain, but not where they are totally overwhelming the tank, where you can still see a lot of the gravel. I thought I'd ask first of all if it is fine to just use gravel. And then secondly, what type of lighting. Can you point me in some directions, or even provide links to lights that would work? I am building a stand and canopy, so one thing I was thinking of was just buying some 36" shop light fixtures and installing them at the underside of the canopy. I will have a glass top over the tank, then the canopy would probably be another 4-6 inches above that. Just looking briefly at Home Depot, I found a twin tube T-5 fixture (2-21 watt bulbs) for $30. Would I need two of those possibly, then maybe buy some appropriate bulbs? Or would it end up being cheaper or better to buy an aquarium fixture that sits on the glass or mounts on the tank (like a T5HO)? And I would like to avoid running a CO2 system because I know nothing about it and would like to keep this pretty simple. I would appreciate any suggestions on lights, types of plants, or any advice on setting this up. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Trallen44 (Dec 10, 2008)

If it was me, I would stay away from the T- 5s if you want to keep this low tech and not have a need for Co2. On my 55, I am using a 48" T - 8 32 watt 10,000K and I am not having any problems. I have a fair amount of plants, but will still have some open spots once I get the rescape done.


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

dm76 said:


> Just looking briefly at Home Depot, I found a twin tube T-5 fixture (2-21 watt bulbs) for $30. Would I need two of those possibly, then maybe buy some appropriate bulbs? Or would it end up being cheaper or better to buy an aquarium fixture that sits on the glass or mounts on the tank (like a T5HO)? And I would like to avoid running a CO2 system.


I think the cheapest way to go is get a fixture, shop light, which you can put a bulb like this Zoo Med ocean sun 10,000K T8 32 watt 48" bulb in it. This is what Trallen has and he has great growth. The T5 bulbs are about $30 to replace and they tend to get hot thus need a fan. Other good cheap bulbs are sylvania 6500k and Gro Lux Bulbs. Some also buy kits from ah supply. , for they have a good reflector. Have read that some make a reflector from a gutter. From Hoppy have found refection improved by paint the reflector with very white. Hoppy has a thread on reflection of light to the bottom of the tank.

It seems from what I have observed, that the bulbs photons are more important than the wattage for the plants grow healthy and bushy with out injecting Co2.

Here are some example of different lights. 

Trallen has the best low tech non Co2 system that I have seen.


----------



## dm76 (Mar 15, 2009)

Trallen, I looked at your pics and that looks great. That is similar to what I was thinking of. So you just have 32 w in the whole tank? I only went to one hardware store, but did not see any T8 fixtures in 36" length. Do they make them? I am not sure I quite understand this, but are you saying if you have too much light, then you need CO2?


----------



## Trallen44 (Dec 10, 2008)

dm76 said:


> Trallen, I looked at your pics and that looks great. That is similar to what I was thinking of. So you just have 32 w in the whole tank? I only went to one hardware store, but did not see any T8 fixtures in 36" length. Do they make them? I am not sure I quite understand this, but are you saying if you have too much light, then you need CO2?


Yes, I just have the one 32 watt bulb on my tank. The bulb before wasn't as good and I have noticed a difference since changing it. I will have to look the next time I go to Lowe's if they make that fixture. If you have too much light, you will end up with lots of algae unless you run Co2. I like keeping things simple myself.


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

dm76 said:


> I only went to one hardware store, but did not see any T8 fixtures in 36" length. Do they make them? I am not sure I quite understand this, but are you saying if you have too much light, then you need CO2?


The light and Co2 have a certain balance to maintain.

Have you searched on line for fixture? Also are you looking for 1 that you can plug in? If you get 1 that doesn't plug in you can splice into a 3 prong extension cord.


----------



## dm76 (Mar 15, 2009)

I think I saw a 36" T-12 at Lowe's for $13. Thats cheap enough, but if those are 30w, and I decide I need more lighting later on, then I might not have enough room for all of them. If I just get that T-5 fixture, and put two aquarium bulbs in it, then I will have 42 watts, and if I need to add another one later, I will have plenty of room for it. Or maybe I will get something from that site you mentioned. I don't care if it plugs in or not, I can just wire a plug on the end of it if I need to.


----------



## Trallen44 (Dec 10, 2008)

I am running 3 36" T- 12s on my spawning stand, and I think it is actually a little more light than I need. They are not heavily planted. I will probebly need to break up my hornwort and float it in all 6 tanks to help keep algae down.


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Another thing you need, which Hoppy has test with par instrument, is a good reflector. Somewhere he posted instructions on the curvature for the metal. 

If you get T5 bulbs you will need a fan. A fan with ball or roller bearings last the longest.

The thinner the bulb the more gain on usable light. For more light is reflected to the bottom. 

The wpg rule is based on light from T12 bulbs.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Why would he need a fan with T5s? They are very cool running. In fact, one of the main reasons I will only use T5s is because they're so cool. I have my TEK 4 x 54w enclosed inside a canopy, and I can touch the fixture at any time without feeling any discomfort at all.

I actually prefer to recommend T5s _specifically_ because you do not need a fan and because they are so cool, they will not heat up your house. That's important when living in a hot climate like I do. Or if you just don't want the heat issue for any reason.

Could you have intended to say PC or MH instead?


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Complexity said:


> Could you have intended to say PC or MH instead?


Oops!! I thought all T5's were the same. I googled my light, sunpaq dual light which gets hot, and found it is a PC.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Okay, that makes sense. PC lights get very hot. T5s are probably the coolest running lights available. I adore mine!

To the OP: When deciding on your lights, I wanted to also mention that there are two types of T5 lights. HO = High Output and NO = Normal Output. The HO puts out a whole lot more light than the NO. The light's wattage can be the same, but the HO will be much brighter.

I think most of the T5 lights you would find in a hardware store will be NO, but it's best to check first. If the lights you originally mentioned are NO T5s, then a couple of fixtures should be okay. You would use one fixture most of the time with the second fixture working as a noon burst. If the fixture is an HO T5, then just get one. Two HO T5 fixtures would be too much light for what you're wanting to do right now.


----------



## dm76 (Mar 15, 2009)

What is PC and MH? Are the HO or NO ones you're talking about cool running? Ok, so if I get the two T5's, which are 42 watts each, then I just run one for the 8 horus, and the other one just for part of that time? Well two shop light fixtures (2 bulbs each) would cost $60, and then I would need to buy bulbs, so that probably wouldn't save a lot. Would I be ok with something like this http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+9871&pcatid=9871 That seems pretty cheap for the 36" and it comes with the bulb. Or this maybe: http://www.aquariumguys.com/current-nova-extreme-freshwater36.html


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

dm76 said:


> What is PC and MH? Are the HO or NO ones you're talking about cool running?


MH are metal halide lights









PC is power compact lights that get hot. 









I am dealing with an ear infection and stressed out about fish getting ill. Thus forgot the difference between the Pc and T5.

HO, high-output tubes is brighter and draws more electrical current than a NO, normal output, tube.



dm76 said:


> Ok, so if I get the two T5's, which are 42 watts each, then I just run one for the 8 horus, and the other one just for part of that time?


I have a 29 gallon tank with total of 85watts with lights on 4hrs off 4hrs and on 4hrs. 



dm76 said:


> Well two shop light fixtures (2 bulbs each) would cost $60, and then I would need to buy bulbs, so that probably wouldn't save a lot. Would I be ok with something like this http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+9871&pcatid=9871 That seems pretty cheap for the 36" and it comes with the bulb. Or this maybe: http://www.aquariumguys.com/current-nova-extreme-freshwater36.html


Seems cheaper to buy supplies from ah supply. Hoppy has some nifty ideas to make a hood. One slides up.


----------



## dm76 (Mar 15, 2009)

Is are PC's the same as compact flourescent? If so, isn't that all that AH supply?


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

dm76 said:


> Is are PC's the same as compact flourescent? If so, isn't that all that AH supply?


No!! I googled it and found it is those twisted screw in bulbs. Also called CFL's. One person whom made a canopy using the CFL's for a large tank said that they got hot. Also if he had it to do over again he would have bought a retro kit from AH supply co. For their reflector is superior. 

One lady, mizu-chan, started her 20 gallon long tank using 2 - 65 daylight CFL's in clip on lights. Her tank is a 1 of a kind. For she only uses diy Co2.


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Hilde said:


> No!! I googled it and found it is those twisted screw in bulbs. Also called CFL's. One person whom made a canopy using the CFL's for a large tank said that they got hot. Also if he had it to do over again he would have bought a retro kit from AH supply co. For their reflector is superior.
> 
> One lady, mizu-chan, started her 20 gallon long tank using 2 - 65 daylight CFL's in clip on lights. Her tank is a 1 of a kind. For she only uses diy Co2.


Technically, you're correct, since both the twisted compacts and the dual bulbs are fluorescent.

However, as far as the aquarium-hobby goes, CFLs mean the twisted bulbs, and PC refer to the bent T5-style bulbs.


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

epicfish said:


> PC refer to the bent T5-style bulbs.


From what I understand they are bent inside the tube or like mine 2 tubes into 1 socket.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Okay, to make some sense out of it (and, someone correct me if I'm wrong as I am not a lighting expert by any means!).

PC: Power Compact - HOT. Commonly used by many with planted tanks. I think they may be a little bit less expensive than T5 HO. Click here for example pics.

CFL: Compact Fluorescent Light - HOT. Also called "pig tail" lights because of their form. Used mainly in DIY setups. Consider your regular light bulb in your lamp and the heat it creates. Similar thing here. Click here for example pics.

MH: Metal Halide - VERY HOT! Frequently seen in shop lights and flood lights. Click here for example pics.

T5: Simply called T5 — COOL/WARM. Fixture can be touched by bare hands even after running for several hours. Can be used inside a canopy. No fans needed. Will not heat up room or water. Click here for example pics.

There are two types of T5 lighting:

T5 NO - NO stands for Normal Output. Good lighting with all the benefits of T5, but not exceptionally bright. Good for beginners to keep light down as they gain experience.

T5 HO - HO stands for High Output. Same T5 benefits, but these lights are BRIGHT. They penetrate the water very well. Favored in high tech setups with fert dosing and pressurized CO2. Good for those who want a "high light" setup.

There are others, such as T8 and T12, but I don't hear much about them. Since I wanted my lights to be placed inside a canopy and because I live in a hot environment and don't want to add more heat into my house, I wanted to stay with a cool running light. And as an added bonus, I don't burn my hands using them. So I favor T5s with a very high bias. 

However, each person is different so it's good to check out your options to know which one works for you. Keep in mind the long term usage of whatever you buy. Sometimes going cheap in the beginning simply means having to replace it later which becomes more expensive in the long run.

I hope this helps. And I hope I'm reasonably accurate on what I've said. If I'm off anywhere, I know others will jump in to help. :smile:


----------



## dm76 (Mar 15, 2009)

Thank you Complexity. I think you did a very good job of explaining this. I was thinking the T5 HO's were hot, but this cleared it up. I think I will go the way of T5's because I have plenty of room in the canopy. I will just mount them to the underside of the canopy I make. Even though I will have a glass top which will make the light fixtures about 4-6 inches above the glass top, that will be ok won't it? It doesnt have to be directly on top of the glass does it? I will probably start with something that gives about 2 wpg. I need to just get this tank before I keep changing my mind though. Now I am considering the 65 gal with the same 36 x 18 footprint because it wouldn't take up anymore room, its just 24 inches tall instead of 16. But then again I don't know if I need all that space, that might be a hassle. Ok, well when I finally get around to making up my mind I'll let you know, but I think I will got with T5 lights at least.


----------



## bibbels (Sep 29, 2008)

x2 to everything Complexity said.

T5HO have completely won me over. I switched from MH to T5HO on my 125 because of the differences in heat and light spread. 

I have a canopy on the 125 and with a fixture with 3x150 watt MH I had genuine concern that the canopy might burst into flames one day :eek5: . With 6x39 watt T5HO retrofits there is very little heat noted in the canopy and I can actually touch the bulbs (I brush my arms into them by accident sometimes). Touching the lens on a MH almp will probably leave flesh behind.

My tank _looks so much brighter with the T5's also with less shadows/poorly lit areas while using less wattage._


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

The lights will be fine on the glass or raised above. I created a ledge on the sides of my canopy for the lights to sit on (I've since removed the glass lids on my tank). I know a lot of people mount the lights to the top of the canopy, but it always bugged me that the lights would be moving every time I opened the canopy. And even worse, I wouldn't have any lights shining inside the tank when I had the canopy open to do planting and trimming. So I came up with a different idea. My lights can go two ways: sitting on the ledge inside the canopy AND hanging from above the tank when the canopy lid is open.

I just posted pictures showing it. Here's a link to where the pictures start. There are two posts, the one I'm linking to and another one about 2 posts down from there (may be on the next page). This was my own unique idea, and I really like it! You could not do this with hot lights, but because the T5s are so cool, I can easily move the light fixture around no matter how long it's been running inside the canopy!

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/t...-journal-75g-new-pics-11-a-36.html#post812974

As far as what tank size to get, get what you want (duh, right?). Consider the plants you want to use. Do you like tall plants? How tall are you? Can you reach inside the taller tank (check the far back corners)? And don't forget that the deeper the tank, the less light that makes it to the bottom which can cause plants to become leggy (their top leaves shade out their bottom leaves). However, with a tall tank, you can plant on a slope and with various height plants which can easily hide any leggy plants in the back.

I'm only 5'4" so when I first got a 90g tank (same as my 75g, but taller), I realized that it was a major pain to reach inside for planting and trimming. As it is, I have to use a step stool for the 75g. But the 75g works for me rather nicely. And I like the overall shape of the tank. I prefer tanks that are long and wide, but not overly tall. But that's just my own taste. Everyone is different.

Just go with your gut. Don't over-think it. Look at the tank, open the canopy, reach inside, and imagine it in your house with plants while you are planting and trimming those plants. One tank will most likely _feel_ more comfortable, and that's the one you should get. It will just call your name, and you'll know it. :hihi:


----------



## dm76 (Mar 15, 2009)

Thats a really cool idea you have there complexity. I was thinking of maybe making the back half of the canopy so it doesn't open, and just mount the lights on that so they won't move when I open it, and then I would still have the front half (like 9 or 10 inches wide) that opens for cleaning and feeding. I am not much taller than you, so maybe a 24" high would be too hard for me to reach inside. I suppose I could build the stand a little taller so the 40 sits a little higher. I was just thinking you might have to lean over to view this tank. But I am sure it will look nice once it's all set up. Maybe I will stick with the 40. I take forever to make a decision!


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Complexity said:


> My lights can go two ways: sitting on the ledge inside the canopy AND hanging from above the tank when the canopy lid is open.


That looks like what hoppy did. So if you don't understand what complexity did search for it under hoppy.


----------



## dm76 (Mar 15, 2009)

Ok, I think I finally need to make up my mind and buy something before I keep changing my mind. I am the worst at making decisions! Anyways, I think I will look at a couple more places for the 50 gallon (which is 18" high instead of the 16" high 40 gallon) but if I can't find one this week, I will probably just get the 40. So in getting the T5 lights, are those hardware store fixtures the least expensive way to go? (2x21 watt fixtures for $30 with bulbs, but I imagine the bulbs that they come with are not going to be adequate for growing plants). But anyways, I could get two of those fixtures for 84 watts and mount them on the underside of the canopy, in which just half of it would open so the side the lights are mounted to are solid. So that should take care of the lights.



No for the rest of it, I was thinking of trying black gravel. I have had tan colored before and it looks nice, but saw some colorful fish at the store in a black gravel tank and they really stood out. Is that a good choice, or will it be too dark looking? Also, will plants grow in just plain gravel, or do I need some other kind of substrate? Again, I don't want this totally filled with plants, but a couple pieces of wood/rocks, with enough plants to make it look nice, but also with room to swim around so there are some open spaces. And some plants that are easy to maintain and dont require CO2 or high light, feel free to recommend some. I have looked at the lists of low light plants.



And finally, for a filter, do you recommend a HOB or a canister? I have read that canisters are better for planted tanks because they don't stir up the water as much, but also notice the flow rate is less than the HOB's. I can't afford to spend hundreds on this, maybe around $100 at the most. And for a heater, is 200w sufficient? Thanks again for everyone's help!


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Hilde said:


> That looks like what hoppy did. So if you don't understand what complexity did search for it under hoppy.


I looked through his threads, but couldn't find it. I'd LOVE to see how he did his! Do you know which thread it's in?



dm76 said:


> Ok, I think I finally need to make up my mind and buy something before I keep changing my mind. I am the worst at making decisions!


Why? Take your time, if you want. It's not as if you actually _need_ the tank. This is for your pleasure and enjoyment. Get what you really want. You may find some places will order it or you.



> Anyways, I think I will look at a couple more places for the 50 gallon (which is 18" high instead of the 16" high 40 gallon) but if I can't find one this week, I will probably just get the 40.


How wide is the 40? Personally, I'm considering a 50g as a replacement for my 29g because I prefer tanks that are 18" wide instead of 12". So much easier to scape!



> So in getting the T5 lights, are those hardware store fixtures the least expensive way to go? (2x21 watt fixtures for $30 with bulbs, but I imagine the bulbs that they come with are not going to be adequate for growing plants). But anyways, I could get two of those fixtures for 84 watts and mount them on the underside of the canopy, in which just half of it would open so the side the lights are mounted to are solid. So that should take care of the lights.


Check those fixtures to see if they take NO or HO T5 bulbs. You cannot switch them. The fixture itself dictates which you must use. NO T5 is not nearly as bright as HO T5 (both are cool running).

Given your desire to keep this low tech, I'd suggest either that you stay under 2wpg with NO T5s or you're going to end up with an algae farm. If you get HO T5s, make sure you can run just 1 bulb at a time via a timer as 2 or more bulbs will definitely give you an algae farm. For example, I have a high tech tank with pressurized CO2, IE ferts, etc. and I only run 2 of my 54w HO T5 bulbs for 9 hours. During those 9 hours, I run all 4 bulbs for 4 hours. And believe me, that is more than sufficient light! And that's over a 75g tank.

But to answer your question more directly, I don't know. I haven't purchased lighting for my tanks at a hardware store so I don't know what's available. 



> No for the rest of it, I was thinking of trying black gravel. I have had tan colored before and it looks nice, but saw some colorful fish at the store in a black gravel tank and they really stood out. Is that a good choice, or will it be too dark looking?


Black is outstanding! Also, add a solid black background to the tank. It will make your plants and fish really stand out!



> Also, will plants grow in just plain gravel, or do I need some other kind of substrate?


This is a tough one. If you stick with plants that do not root into the substrate, such as Java Ferns, Anubias, then it won't matter what you use for substrate. However, if you want to plant any plants that will actually root into the substrate, it's best to use an actual plant substrate. I prefer Eco-Complete because it's black.

There are two things to consider when selecting your substrate. On one hand, plant substrate is much more expensive. But on the other hand, attempting to replace substrate from gravel to plant substrate is a big mess once the tank is up and running.

You'll have to think about this one. My personal thought is to get the planted substrate so you can grow with your tank (you'll be surprised how much you'll enjoy the plants), but you may prefer to keep things inexpensive for now, knowing that you will have a really big mess later and will spend even more later should you decide you want rooting plants.



> Again, I don't want this totally filled with plants, but a couple pieces of wood/rocks, with enough plants to make it look nice, but also with room to swim around so there are some open spaces. And some plants that are easy to maintain and dont require CO2 or high light, feel free to recommend some. I have looked at the lists of low light plants.


If you do this, make extra certain your lights remain low. Otherwise, it'll become a big algae mess. That's the only way you'll be able to pull this off. Keep in mind that your plant selection will be greatly limited.

You may want to look through pictures of planted tanks to see if you can find anything close to what you're wanting, and then you can get much more specific information on what you need to achieve it.



> And finally, for a filter, do you recommend a HOB or a canister? I have read that canisters are better for planted tanks because they don't stir up the water as much, but also notice the flow rate is less than the HOB's. I can't afford to spend hundreds on this, maybe around $100 at the most.


Canister. Canister. Canister. Canister. Canister. Canister. Canister.

If you can't afford a canister, wait to save the money until you can.

And just to be sure there's no confusion... Get a CANISTER! :hihi:



> And for a heater, is 200w sufficient? Thanks again for everyone's help!


I have no idea. I keep the temperature in my house at a steady 75° so I never need a heater in my tanks. The box on the heaters will tell you what size of tank it's for. But first make sure you actually need one before getting one. I have a whole bunch of heaters I bought and have never used or barely used. Wasted money.


----------



## dm76 (Mar 15, 2009)

Complexity said:


> How wide is the 40? Personally, I'm considering a 50g as a replacement for my 29g because I prefer tanks that are 18" wide instead of 12". So much easier to scape!


The 40 is 18" wide just like the 50. Only difference is one is 16" high and the other 18" high. 

Ok, I guess canister is the way to go then? Hehehe. Ok, so I will look around for some pictures of what I like and if I find some, I will let you know. Maybe I will just start with one fixture which would give about 1 wpg and then would that limit the algae? And just start with java ferns, etc. If I use something like the Eco-Complete that you mentioned, do I just use that, or can I put that down, and a layer of gravel over it?

When I do my fishless cycle, is it better to get everything planted in there and then start it, or just start it with just a substrate and then add the plants later? Do having the plants in there affect the cycle?


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

dm76 said:


> When I do my fishless cycle, is it better to get everything planted in there and then start it, or just start it with just a substrate and then add the plants later? Do having the plants in there affect the cycle?


It goes quicker if you have plants to start with. Check out info at Rex Griggs


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Use Eco-Complete all by itself. You don't need to put anything on top or bottom of it. That's how I have all of my tanks set up.

Be sure to read the instructions because Eco-Complete is probably the only substrate you're going to find that specifically tells you to NOT rinse it. You pour it in directly from the bag. Do it with an empty tank, and then fill later. You'll get debris kicked up, but it clears pretty fast (that is, if you get a canister! :biggrin.

Ditto Hilde. You may find that the plants themselves bring good bacteria to the tank to seed it which will greatly speed up the cycling process.

The 40g and 50g both sound nice. I think I'd go with the 50g for me personally, but I think you could have good looking scape with a 40g. You really can't lose either way.


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Complexity said:


> I looked through his threads, but couldn't find it. I'd LOVE to see how he did his! Do you know which thread it's in?


I think Hoppy showed a picture of his hood at someone else's thread. I shall search for it Sunday.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Thanks, Hilde. I sent him a PM to see it. He has a very interesting method. More complex than mine, but works very nicely.


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Complexity said:


> Be sure to read the instructions because Eco-Complete is probably the only substrate you're going to find that specifically tells you to NOT rinse it. You pour it in directly from the bag. Do it with an empty tank, and then fill later. You'll get debris kicked up, but it clears pretty fast (that is, if you get a canister! :biggrin..


Sounds like a problem I have with my substrate which has sand topping dirt that has kitty litter mixed in it. I pour the water over a plate. Then put an HOB filter on and add nutrifins's clear.

Do you buy the Eco-Complete locally or do you have to buy it on line and pay the shipping cost?


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I buy it both ways. If I buy it online, the price is cheaper and I don't have to pay taxes so that makes up for the shipping costs. Plus, I don't have to go to multiple LFS to get all the bags I need, and I love not having to carry the bags around since they are delivered to my door.

If I just want one or two bags, I'll go ahead and get it locally. But when I wanted 9 bags at once, I bought it online.


----------



## dm76 (Mar 15, 2009)

SO how many bags do I need for this? I saw 20 pound bags online for $18, which I guess isn't too bad. Does this stuff look like gravel, or does it look like dirt? And if I end up just using a few low light plants, is that going to promote algae growth or anything since I have all that nice substrate and nothing to use up the nutrients in it?

As far as the canister, would the Eheim 2215 be a good choice? I can get one of those for $109. Or if something is much better than that I guess as long as its under $150 I could afford that. And for a heater, I was just going to get a submersible one, but then saw the inline ones that go in your canisters tubing. Are those decent? I was thinking if I get that, then I won't have anything cluttering up the back of the tank besides just the two tubes for the canister!


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

*DO NOT USE FERTS THAT ARE NOT SPECIFICALLY FOR AQUARIUMS!*

I'm not sure what ferts you're looking at that's in a 20 pound bag, but it does not sound like anything designed for aquariums, and I'd hate to see you get the wrong stuff and kill everything in your tank. A 1/2 to 1 pound bag of ferts can last a year so aquarium ferts are never sold in 20 pound bags. As far as color, the macros look white while the micros look tan/brown. They are all like powder.

Read this post and the one after it for info on getting started with ferts. The other person has the same size tank so all of the measurements for the ferts apply to your tank, as well.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...-help-ferts-im-totally-lost-2.html#post810803

Regarding your Eheim filter, it's best to ask for help in the Equipment forum. That way many people can offer info on that filter and suggest other filters to consider. I'll also throw in the suggestion that you look into the Rena XP line of canisters. They're usually a bit less expensive than Eheim, but they do an excellent job. Get the biggest canister you can afford.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/

That's another good forum to ask about heaters. I don't use a heater so I'm of no help with that.

Last, back to ferts. Ferts do not promote algae. Algae appears when a tank is not in balance, and it's not uncommon for newly set up tanks to experience algae while striving to achieve a balance.

Basically, there are 4 components of a planted tank that need to be in balance in order to avoid algae and to promote good plant growth.

1. Ferts. Do not attempt to dose less ferts than recommended with the thought that doing so will somehow prevent algae. This does not work. Instead, it harms the plants.

2. CO2. This cannot be stressed enough. Plants must have a carbon source to build new cells. New cells is how they grow. Without carbon, they simply cannot grow. Obviously, the best method is to dose actual pressurized CO2, but you can use Excel which will work. Yeast based DIY CO2 methods also work, but require a lot of maintenance. Drawbacks of Excel is that it's expensive. DIY and Excel have problems in keeping the CO2 levels stabilized which can promote BBA (a nasty algae).

3. Plant mass. Most people do not include this in the balance, but I always do. That's because it is critical to start off a newly planted tank with a full mass of plants, even if half of those plants are weeds that will eventually be thrown away. I'll try to explain this further in a minute.

4. Light. This is the driving force behind the entire planted tank AND the single, most common cause of algae. Too much light can wreck havoc on a tank. It's best to start off with a low to moderate amount of light, gain some experience, and get brighter light only after you have the first 3 components set up. Light must be carefully controlled, both in its intensity and in duration (number of hours the lights are turned on).

Here's how these 4 components work together and why it's so important to not dose less ferts, but to increase plant mass to use the ferts.

Plants can only take in the ferts that are in the water that's in physical contact with them. In other words, they cannot suck out the ferts from the water across the tank. The water needs to make actual contact with the plants.

If you dose less ferts, then the water touching the plants will have a weakened amount of ferts. So the plants do not get the ferts they need.

However, the water on the other side of the tank still has ferts in it that are not being used if there are no plants in that part of the tank to use them.

What this does is create a situation in which the plants that are in the tank are getting a weakened amount of ferts while there are ferts in the tank where there are no plants that aren't being used. Add bright lighting to that, and algae will be more than happy to make your tank its home.

The solution then is to not decrease the ferts, but to increase the plant mass. Now the plants receive a full dose of ferts from the water in which they are in contact with AND the water across the tank also has plants using up those ferts, as well. So now the entire tank is filled with plants that are receiving the full amount of ferts they need to grow well. And algae is going to have a hard time finding a way to start growing.

As long as these plants are getting all the ferts and CO2 they need, they can grow to their full potential. The last component then is the lighting.

The brighter the light, the faster the plant growth and the more demand these plants will have for ferts and CO2. If a tank has bright light, but does not have good ferts or CO2, then the plants cannot grow healthily. Remember, the light must be in BALANCE with the ferts, CO2 and plant mass. It cannot be greater than those 3 components. If the lighting is too bright for the plants, then algae will appear as it can grow with bright light, but does not have as great a need for ferts and CO2.

It's okay for plants to receive less light than they can potentially use. This just keeps their growth slower. But the balance can still be achieved in that the plants get all the ferts and CO2 they can use given the amount of light they have.

Obviously, plants can receive too little light. But in general, moderate lighting works very well for most plants. There is no such thing as too much ferts or CO2 even if there's more in the tank than the plants can use. This will not promote algae. But it is possible to have too much lighting, and it is the excess lighting that can cause algae.

Excess lighting can take the form of being too bright, being turned on for too many hours or being in greater supply than the ferts, CO2 and plant mass in the tank. Lighting is the #1 reason for algae.

So get the ferts going. Get the CO2 going. Get a TON of plants (preferably many fast growers to start with), and THEN increase the lighting. Inch the lighting up as you go. If/When you begin to see algae, turn that lighting back down. Identifying the type of algae growing will then give us a clue as to which of the 4 components are out of balance which helps to know what to change to achieve the balance.

That's a lot to take in, I'm sure. Mainly, try to get the overall concept rather than memorizing each tiny detail. And understand that algae grows because of an imbalance (usually, too much light in comparison to the amount of ferts, CO2 and plant mass), but not because the ferts themselves. And decreasing the ferts only increases algae, not the other way around, because decreased ferts causes an imbalance of the 4 components.

Have I completely confused you yet? :hihi:


----------



## dm76 (Mar 15, 2009)

Yeah thats a ton of info. But I wasn't asking about ferts. I was asking how many bags of Eco-Complete substrate I need. Thats what I was talking about what I saw in 20 pound bags, such as here http://www.petsolutions.com/Default.aspx?ItemID=18400770
And I meant, does the eco-complete look more like dirt, or does it look like black gravel when its in the tank. Sorry for the confusion


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Oh, my. Sorry for the mix up! I sometimes get my threads confused. Maybe the info can help someone else.

Here's a pic of it: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/images/Categoryimages/normal/p_12989_FS31740i.jpg

And you can look at my tanks from my journals below. They all have Eco-Complete. Make sure you click on the newer pictures for my 75g because the first substrate was from a bad batch which has been replaced.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

This pic shows it pretty well:


----------



## dm76 (Mar 15, 2009)

Your tank looks great!

Now remember when I said I was going to get the 40 because I couldnt find a 50? Well, to confuse things even more, I just made a few last calls to some stores to see if they had a 50, and found one! However, they said its $139 with the lid and a light, it all came together. At another store, I found the 40 tank for $95, plus the lid for $25, so thats $120 for just the lid and tank. Do you think I should get this 50, even though I can't use that light? Or at least I imagine I can't use that light. Its probably just like 20 or 25 watts at the most I would imagine. What do you think?


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

See if they'll sell it to you without the light. If not, then get the 50 anyway. You'll be surprised about that light. I used a standard 30" light on my 75g for a couple of months specifically to keep the lighting VERY DIM while I was getting everything set up. Not a speck of algae the entire time. Check out the very first pic in my 75g journal!

When you're done with it (or as soon as you get it), put it on Craigslist. Shouldn't be too hard to sell. Make sure the store gives you the box and paperwork so if you don't use it, you can advertise it as brand new with new bulb and everything. You'd be surprised at how many people use those lights. Planted tanks with mega-watt lights are the exception, not the rule.


----------



## dm76 (Mar 15, 2009)

Ok sounds good. I'll see if I can go by there and take a look at it tomorrow and get it so I can start building my stand. I looked at your pics. So do you recommend I just get the plants I want (which will probably be low light plants anyways, anubias, swords, etc.), set them up in the eco-complete substrate along with my driftwood, and just use the standard light at first? I was under the assumption that the plants would not grow just like they aren't in my 10 gal. But then again, I just have gravel in there and not giving them any ferts, so I guess its pretty good that they aren't dying! So should I just use that light for now while its cycling and everything? Will the plants grow at all with that? Aren't ya going to be glad when I go out and finally buy this thing so I don't keep asking all these questions?  heheh


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

LOL! The questions are great! It's much better to ask in advance than to announce disaster afterwards.

You can use whatever lighting you want to start off with, but keep it very low. No, your plants won't grow much, if any. But neither will algae.

Of the 4 components that you need to balance to have a successful planted tank, lighting is the very last thing you add to the equation. Lighting drives the entire engine. So if you add too much lighting before you have the other 3 components set up, then you'll simply be putting up welcome mats for algae to make your tank its home.

I used my low lighting simply as a transition. If you'll notice, in the first pics, most of the plants were silk! They weren't even alive! But as I worked on the tank, I finally bought my bright lights. But that was AFTER I had (1) began using ferts, (2) had pressurized CO2 running and (3) had acquired sufficient plant mass, including weedy plants that grow very fast. Once those three things are in place, THEN you can add the brighter lighting.

That's not to say that all tanks need mega-watt lighting, pressurized CO2 and all. Many tanks do really well with "low tech" setups. But the same is still true for those setups. The lighting must be kept in line with the other 3 parameters. If you don't have ferts, CO2 or lots of plants, then you cannot add a lot of light (unless you really do want a science lab on algae in your tank ).

So my thinking for my tank and the thought I had with yours is if you get the standard lighting, it's good enough to use while you are getting your tank set up. If you can get everything put together in a day (driftwood, rocks, other decor of choice, plants, lighting, etc.), then you won't need to worry about dim lighting. Just turn on your regular lights very carefully, keeping it low and slow, inching it up as you go. But if you're more like me and don't know precisely what you want to do (and then discover that it takes longer to do what you finally do decide to do), then there's no harm in using the standard lighting while you are getting everything ready. During this time, you can also be cycling your tank.

I'm sure many others will disagree with the idea of using standard lighting while working on the tank, and I'm sure they can, do and probably did get their tanks going just fine with bright lighting. But I'm just thinking that if you _have_ to _have_ the standard lighting because it's a package deal at the LFS, you _can_ put it to use.

Oh, and to be clear, I would not buy any plants until you have the tank ready to go. Getting the plants ahead of time is like buying flowers for a flowerbed when you haven't built the flowerbed yet. You build the flowerbed first, and then get the flowers. Get your tank set up and then add the plants.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I think the T5 lights you're looking at would be fine with either tank. I wouldn't get the light set the store would sell you unless it's a Hagen Glo T5 fixture (unlikely)- most likely they will come with just single strip T8 fixtures which won't be enough light for a planted tank.

And how much substrate you need will depend on which tank you get- since the footprints of the tanks are a bit different.

If you don't want to start off with CO2, then you need to stay between 1.5- 2 watts per gallon with CF or T8 fixtures, and no more than 1.5 wpg of T5HO.

A canister filter is definitely the way to go if you're considering upgrading to CO2 at some point (an Eheim 2215 or 2217 would be an excellent choice, or a Rena XP3) but HOB filters are great filters for the money and work perfectly for low tech setups. AquaClears and Emperors are my personal Favs.


----------



## dm76 (Mar 15, 2009)

*Got the tank today!*

Well I ended up getting the tank today (the 50 gal) and almost have the stand built as well. Those two filters you mentioned are the two I was trying to decide between, as I have found them both for similar prices. I'll have to just pick one I guess. So anyways, I think once I get the filter, I will get the plants situated in there and start cycling it. It won't hurt for it to go a week or so without lights will it? If I get the eco-complete, should I just use that straight, or get half that and half regular gravel? I know this question probably has too many variables to answer, but what is a good starting point for how many plants I should get? I want a mixture of easy to grow plants, but its hard to judge how big they will get so its hard to know how many to start with. I don't want the tank totally packed full with plants, but I want a good deal of them.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Plants should be okay for a week, but it would be better to get the lighting before the plants. If you get it from someone in the SNS, see if they'll hold the plants for a week. Plus, keep transit time in mind.

Use Eco-Complete without mixing it with anything. No gravel. Avoid any bag that has a milky white liquid inside as the liquid should be clear like water. Also, get the package with the fewest non-black pieces (no multicolored pieces and few white ones).

Regarding how many plants, you DO want to start with the tank totally packed with plants. But you don't need to get expensive plants nor will you need to keep them all. You want fast growing plants to start with. I don't recommend a lot of slow growing plants, such as anubias and java fern. Get lots of stem plants. I usually suggest stuffing the tank with hornwort (basically, a weed without roots) that you can either float or weigh down to look like a stem plant. I have one plant available in the SNS that would also do very well for a newly set up tank, _Limnophila aquatica_ (Giant Ambulia). Basically, most stems will grow fast (but not all). Another pretty and fast growing plant is _Hygrophila polysperma 'Rosanervig'_ (Sunset Hygro). If you are unsure, you can always look up the plants or just ask, and we can help you out.

I'm not suggesting that you spend a ton of money on plants, but that you get fast growers that will give you a lot of plant mass. Then, you can take your time getting the specific plants you want long term while selling or tossing the fast growers. The plant mass will help avoid algae problems during the transition period of starting up a new planted tank.

_P.S. I'm behind on some of my PMs, but hope to catch up today._


----------

