# Power OFF time for Canister filters???



## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

I usually shot off my sump to feed my fish and turtle in the tank or else it blows it down the overflows. That's usually 30mins long or so and never notice any effects.

> Size of tank - 120gal
> Brand of Canister - 25gal sump
> Bio-load of fish - LOTS. goldfish and turtle
> W/C frequency - when i get around to it
> Substrate - bare bottom except a few river rocks


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## shinycard255 (Sep 15, 2011)

I usually turn mine off when doing water changes and that lasts about an hour, maybe hour and a half at times if I'm cleaning the filter itself. Everything seems fine afterwards

I also turn off once and a while when I'm feeding bloodworms or flakes, otherwise the food will just float around everywhere in the tank. The filter is only turned off for a few minutes at most during feeding

Also turn off when I'm spot treating algae, so about 20-30 minutes

I've had this filter on my tank for 8 months now as well.
-60G tank
-Fluval 406
-Bio-load: 2 angels, 9 tetras, 3 cory cats, 3 otos
-W/C every Sunday (at least 50%)
-Dirt capped with Flourite


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## sayurasem (Jun 17, 2011)

This is not my story but I remember a member forgot to turn back his canister filter over night after tank maintance and everything was fine.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

I use to turn mine off for feeding for 15 minutes every day with no problem. 

FX5 on 75 g tank heavy bioload with sand substrate. 

If the tank is heavily planted, there is likely MUCH less bacteria in your filter than you expect. Plants consume ammonia faster than nitrate and they consume ammonia faster than bacteria do, in my experience. THis means that the bacteria colony is usually smaller. 

This tank rarely gets water changes. 

I think in a small canister the toxic conditions could build up quickly. The fx5 is obviously pretty large and considering there was (what I think to be) a small colony it had a little time. 

In established planted tanks I've done full media swaps and huge water changes(95%) and haven't experienced a cycle in a LONG time.


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## Deahttub (Apr 17, 2011)

I had mine turned off for 5 days (hurricane) and all was fine...


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## bucilini (Jun 28, 2012)

So if i'm running 2 canister filters, i could potentially turn one off during the night, and just run the other one?


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## Ozydego (Aug 29, 2011)

I am going to look for the thread, but the bacterial colonies need oxygen. By turning off the canister filter you are setting a timer for the oxygen to run out. This starts killing bacteria. Now the larger the colony, the faster the depletion of oxygen. This will reduce the colony to a smaller number so the oxygen lasts longer. You get the hardy smaller colony left and may not see a problem, but over time with a heavily stocked tank you could possibly see a spike. As I remember the rule of thumb is an hour or less.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

Forgot to plug in the fluval 304 after WC and it was off for about a week... i plugged it back in when i noticed and it ran for 6 hours. then someone told me i could poison my tank. so i took it out and cleaned it and replaced the media. but it didn't smell. i wonder if that was even necessary. didnt notice any effects from it running with possible dead bacteria. but there's a 2nd filter that i did remember to plug back in that had been running the whole time so i'm not sure if that helped or not. 

then power outage for 4 days. on day 3 i took the media out and put it in buckets in a little bit of water to keep it damp but give it oxygen as suggested. i had them running for a week or so without fish OR plants and dropped fish food in there to feed the bacteria. I don't think I killed too much bacteria... but it's hard to tell. there's only been one fish in there since then. i feed her twice a day, generously, to put NO3 in there. 

power outage last night for a few hours. didn't do anything. no problems. 

- 29 gallon tank
- fluval 304 and 104 
- Right now: one angel. Before: an angel, 10 tetras, 2 otos (i took them home after the power outage and decided i liked them better in that tank, haha)
- once a week, 35-30%
- eco complete


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## fusiongt (Nov 7, 2011)

I saw a video on youtube that said if you have a long power outage, you can use a battery powered air pump with air stone to keep the bacteria alive. We're talking days here, not hours or anything typical like what we do (water changes, cleaning, etc)


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

I've never had any issues with 3-4 hour power outages affecting my canisters, so I'm honestly not sure. I'd guess they can go quite some time. Oxygen consumption shouldn't be massive since there's no additional waste being added to the closed environment.


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## Ozydego (Aug 29, 2011)

I am seeing a trend of once in a while on these off times, I wonder if the repeated oxygen depletion could over time weaken the colony. I am under the impression that unless its not possible, the best practice would be to leave it plugged in. BTW, just because new water is not entering the filter does not mean the stuff caught in the mechanical filter stops decomposing


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## Jules (May 20, 2012)

There was a post about this is wkndracer's quarantine thread where someone had actually gotten the lowdown on this from a biologist - let me see if I can find it.

Hmm - I mis-remembered, it's more about feeding and temp not O2, but I'll post it anyway in case it's of interest since it does have to do with keeping the bacteria alive.

Here we go: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1603385&postcount=29



fresh.salty said:


> Last week I asked these questions of Timothy A. Hovanec, Ph.D. via email. He's the owner of Dr. Tim's Aquatics and formerly of Marineland. I met him briefly about 15 years ago at Marineland's corporate office in Moorpark, CA when I was training for point of sale sales program they had. That was a fun job and I did that for several years.
> 
> Anyway, here's the conversation. I'll breakup my two-part question and his answers.
> 
> ...


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

*AEs*

Jules - Thanks for the link.

It has been my understanding that in a normal tank, post cycle there are a finite amt. of bacteria in the filter & tank based on _'Food'_ and oxygen. That bacteria fluctuate as food & oxygen levels change over time. In essence your can not have a small or large colony, you can only have the appropriate size colony for the current conditions.

I'd like to understand how much time it takes to effect change when those two factors food & oxygen levels change.

As several have note most of us do turn off power to canisters to feed and do W/C. In those balanced tanks we don't see repercussions from short down time on the canister filters. I suspect the % of bacterial die off is so small it's a non-event in the life of the colony.

Overstock's point about are plants is very relevant. I think they are our safety net.

Like many of us I turn off the canister for feeding & W/Cs. I've noticed how much more work I get out of my SAEs and Amanos without current in more turbulent areas of the tank. They are much more effective in the calm water.

Hence my question. 

I'm learning about Aquaponics and thinking about Ebb & Flow systems made me wonder about out canisters. Of course a Hydroponic bed in Ebb stages is exposed to the air vs. a canister filer environment.


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

Seems like a bit of a myth. Maybe just a planted tank thing, but even if all the bio dies in the canister, there is still a huge amount in the tank, on the plants, and the upper substrate. Probably more of an issue in a bare bottom fish only tank.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

I don't think this is anything limited to planted tanks. Reef tanks are one giant filter when you consider what live rock is. 

Good point about Bare Bottom breeder tanks or Q-Tanks.

I think the benefit bio-filtration in a filter is the larger surface are that the bacteria can live on vs. the Sq. Ft. of the inside of the tank, hardscape and plants have to offer.


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## rainbuilder (Sep 21, 2011)

My canister closed itself off one time when I wasn't paying attention to it. I guess the valve on the top slowly shifted downward, because I noticed after a few days that there was no flow. My angelfish also started to get stressed with some fin rot. I turned it back on and everything was back to normal in a day or two.


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## Chaoslord (Feb 12, 2011)

My filters turn off last hour of my photoperiod also co2. I have no water movement till lights turn off. Than my filters and powerhead turns back on. I've been doing this for 6 months and I don't think it hurts the bb . My plants pearl like crazy during this hour. 
I started doing this when I read an article about it . I don't have enough time now but tomorrow I'll find the article and post the link.


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## Chaoslord (Feb 12, 2011)

http://www.azgardens.com/c-173-top-aquarium-secerts.aspx
It's under section 9 timers. 
I tried this out and within a week i noticed a difference with pearling and plant growth.
I've been doing it every since.
I only run my lights for 8 hours not the 12 they recommend.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

I usually suggest to people who are moving an aquarium to a new house that they be careful of the bacteria.
The disruption of the tank probably reduces the effectiveness of the bacteria in the substrate etc. and the plants may not pick up and grow the instant the tank is set back up, so all the protection they can give to the bacteria in the filter is important. 
I make the following suggestions, some of them based on the early marketing of Bio Spira:

Short trip (under 1 hour):
Drain the water. The bacteria do not need to be under water, but they do need the oxygen. 
Longer trip (couple of hours to several days): Put the filter media in a 5 gallon bucket with a little water on the bottom. Better air movement, more oxygen than in the filter chamber. 
Longer: Use the bucket, but also add a little ammonia every few days. Water changes are not needed, but stirring helps to add more oxygen to the water. 

Keep the bacteria as cool as reasonable, but not freezing. Near the AC in the car is good for a summer move. If the move is in the winter, then in the cab of the car, not the trunk, not the bed of the truck where things might freeze. An ice chest with a heat pack is good, but not right next to the bacteria. Perhaps tape the heat pack to the lid. Similarly, an ice pack in the summer, but again, not next to the bacteria. Wrap either of these in a towel to moderate the heat or cold. 

Similar precautions would probably be worthwhile with any media that is well populated with bacteria. The upper 1/4" to 1/2" of substrate is the most populated. If you are moving, skim that layer and protect it like the filter media. Then make sure it lands on top of the other substrate when you are setting up the new tank. 

These timings and temperature suggestions are rather general. 
The bacteria are quite durable within their tolerance range. 

If you think something has happened get Nitrospiros species (read the label) of 'bacteria in a bottle' to repopulate the system. There are several brand names, including Dr. Tim's One and Only.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Chaoslord - Thanks for posting the Link. Although is doesn't address the OP question, it remains interesting as a strategy in improving our plants growth.

I have to think they is at least one study out in cyber space on this topic.


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## tetranewbie (Oct 6, 2010)

Honestly, I just moved across the country (or at very least halfway across the country) from Tucson Az, to the middle of Iowa and I had a FX5, run on a decently stocked 90g tank, low tech, lightly planted with anubias and jungle val. After an 8 day reclocation (and the moving company getting a tank here) I restarted the tank believing that I'd need to complete a full new cycle, even though the filter had been kept full of water. 

I refilled the tank, and put in some pure ammonia (no, there were no fish in there). 1 hour after I added the ammonia, I tested at 3ppm via a master test kit. 24hrs later, 0 ppm ammonia, I was amazed, and thought my readings were incorrect. I proceeded to run the test again, with the same results... 

Just food for thought I guess.


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## Chaoslord (Feb 12, 2011)

Hat


DogFish said:


> Chaoslord - Thanks for posting the Link. Although is doesn't address the OP question, it remains interesting as a strategy in improving out plants growth.
> 
> I have to think they is at least one study out in cyber space on this topic.


I tried scouring the internet when I broke my hob with no luck. I even posted a thread on here for help. That link was really the only thing I could find where their was deliberately no circulation for the bb. They do claim they have been doing that for over 20 years with no consequence . It's defiantly not a study but a case and point. I would be interested in reading a study if you do fine it. I just tried again and came up with nothing.
I also posted the link because I didn't want to take credit for something that wasn't my idea.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

chaoslord - I do appreciate the effort, I also found their comments on Marine salt interesting. But, that's another thread. 

I would think if one the Filter manufactures has done some testing at some point?


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

I think it could depend on the canister. I have 2 eheim 2213s and when I do water changes they are unplug for 30 mins. Obviously this isn't enough to kill off bacteria. What did happen though is when my 55 gallon broke a seal, my filters were unplugged and not ran for 2-3 days until I got a replacement tank. Once I got a replacement tank and hooked up my filters I got an awful smell that never went away. I gave it about 3-4 days to see if it would clear itself and it didn't. The eheim are so air tight that it fouled the water. I end up having to break down the canister and clean everything thoroughly. Once I pop the canister open it smelled like something died.....twice. It took about a day to clear the smell.

I never tested my water parameters though. I am sure enough bacteria in the filter and the substrate sustained adequate numbers for I didn't have any fish loss.


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## fermentedhiker (Oct 28, 2011)

I was always under the impression that the reason for concern with canister filters(or any other airtight system) wasn't a loss of your bacterial colony, but rather the onset of denitrification in the O2 depleted filter. So the "horror stories" are from dumping a huge amount of dissolved hydrogen sulfide into the tank on restart.

In that case it's the amount of available nitrate in the filter that will determine how much hydrogen sulfide can be created. So heavily planted tanks, tanks that are well maintained, and filters that do not have a large accumulation of mulm in them wouldn't be as much at risk.

These are just my thoughts though.


I have a fluval 305 connected to a lifeguard fb300 on my 55g and it has shown no ill affects from power outages thus far. I did stick a 2000VA UPS on it because of my concern about the possibility during an extended outage. My calculations were off and instead of running the filter for a few hours, it cuts out after fifteen minutes , back to the drawing board.

Adam


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

fermentedhiker said:


> So heavily planted tanks, tanks that are well maintained, and filters that do not have a large accumulation of mulm in them wouldn't be as much at risk.
> 
> 
> 
> Adam


I had a 55g moderately planted. My filters were loaded with mulm. By having the oxygen cut off and having no outlet or a way to be introduced to fresh oxygen, my filters were down right rotten. If the filters suffered bacterial losses, the substrate and the plants held everything in check.


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## Angus (Dec 14, 2012)

*Am I really the only idiot???*

I have an anecdote that you all might find interesting....

I started keeping fishtanks when I was about 12yrs old. My father gave me the whole setup for a 25gal tank with an undergravel filter and starting money to stock it. A few years later I had evolved to multiple larger tanks and using canister filters. Long story short and 19 years later, last week I had a PennPlax Cascade 700 on a 55gal start to leak uncontrollably. I swapped out the gaskets and no relief, so I took it down to the fish store to explain and see if they could figure out the reason for the leak.

During the conversation, I mentioned that it leaked more when the filter was off at night, like the continuous pressure changed and was forcing air in. "Filter off?!" I was pounced on by all three employees at once! 

This was the first I had ever heard about it being a bad idea to shut off the filter. Since I started keeping fish, I was always trying different foods, plants, lighting patterns, and had settled in on my methods by trial and error.

I have since purchased a replacement, an Eheim 2215. I have looked everywhere online and NOBODY shuts their filters off at night. I have always done it this way, and wont be changing my methods. It works fine.

I run lights and filter 10am-8pm. Feeding by automatic feeder at 7.30am.
10% water changes once a month. I clean out canisters twice a year, and let me tell you... those suckers are basically CLEAN. I clean mostly because the occasional leaf gets sucked in and you might have fibers, and also because tiny snails seem to always start up colonies in the filters.

If the filters are off for more than 2 days due to a power outtage, I will empty out and rinse the filter media. It will get rank quickly and spew a smelly cloud back into your tank otherwise. 

I have always kept _heavily_ planted aquariums. The guys at the fishstore asked my if I had frequent epidemics in my tanks. The answer is no. I have a cory cat that is about 14yrs old, and I have kept blue rams for about 5years, wayyy past what all the forums tell you is their life expectancy.

I use no carbon or ammonia chips.

In my own interpretation of what is going on:
Bacteria numbers will spike after feeding time. I prefer to feed in the morning to keep the bacteria spike in the morning and then run the pump all day. 12-16 hours of off time has no noticeable effect on filtration. If anything the shutoff time helps with overpopulation... hehehe :icon_roll

Benefits: I think turning off the water flow at night helps keep fish stress free.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I forgot to restart my canister several times on my four foot tank and never once experienced any problem because of it. On a small (nano) type setup with a canister it might be a different story since a large percent of the bb would be housed in the actual filter, but I think on most setups the amount in the actual filter is small compared to the tank itself. But like everything else in the hobby YMMV based on tank size, plant mass, etc.


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## Angus (Dec 14, 2012)

I agree. It's all a function of tank size and biomass, but in an uncrowded tank in stable conditions it is definitely not an issue. I have a 6gal, 5 tetra setup with a HOB aquaclear that must be run 24/7.


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

I don't think there is a problem with bb when the filter is turned off for a few min up to 24 hours or so, the one problem that may arise is pressure build, with a canister that is. When the filter is off the pressure from the tank water is now in the filter, if you do this every night for a long period of time, I would think that your canister would fail quicker than somebody turning it off while feeding. I know this because I've seen it with my own eyes, when my gasket went on one of my older cheapie cans from years ago, while off it leaked like a mother [email protected]!?3r but when I turned it back on... No leaks!
I would not suggest turning your canister off every night for hours at a time or putting it on a timer running in intervals like some people might do, just more if a chance to leak when you are not around or sleeping, IMO.


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## TexasCichlid (Jul 12, 2011)

I use Repashy gel foods which sink to the substrate and the fish naturally graze of them there. No need for turning my filter off.


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## Angus (Dec 14, 2012)

That pressure build-up may well be the case with my recent failure of a cascade 700, it would leak badly with the power off but only lightly while running. Either way, from looking in forums I see that failure of these filters is not uncommon. The filter was quite old, and I definitely got my money's worth. I did contact PennPlax to see if there was an additional gasket that could be replaced, and they just went ahead and sent me a whole new filter free of charge!

Cascade 700 gets a 7/10 rating for quality, but Penn Plax gets a 10/10 for customer service!

I will be keeping the new Eheim 2215 and running that one, so I guess I will have to set up another tank for the spare Cascade! :fish:


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