# Yoyo Loach tragedy, what happened?



## Tabby (Nov 24, 2012)

Hello everyone. I made this account a few years ago and never stuck around. I have had a hectic time since I started my 55 gallon tank, but I've come to a point where I can finally invest in my tank. However, I wanted to find out what happened to my Yoyo Loaches last year, and why.

Back in October, I had a wonderful pack of 5 Yoyos. They were active, gregarious, and (appeared to be) healthy. Then I went to feed them one night, and saw horror. One of my loaches was laying on its side, gasping, tangled in what I thought were intestines. I scooped him and a gallon of water out and put him in a bucket. He was trying to wriggle in the net, and he could even propel him self a bit, but I knew he was done for. He died over night.

The next morning I found the largest loach dead under their shelter. He was probably dead for 24 hours, judging by the decay. He looked normal, though. The third dead loach had the red protrusions coming out of its head and flanks, and around the tail. The last dead loach looked normal, and had been swimming robustly just that morning.

In 24 hours I lost all but one Yoyo loach, who is still alive today. Water Parameters were as follows:

pH: 6.0
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: Presumably over 40 ppm. I just found out recently that I have been doing the test wrong. My current Nitrates are between 40 - 80 ppm. I am going to make a different Thread about the current state of my tank.

I couldn't find any disease/ condition that matches exactly what I was seeing. I was going to post photos, but I'm not sure if I can- they are graphic.

Thank you anyone who can help.


----------



## HSA1255 (Apr 2, 2013)

That really is a tragedy! Those fish are really cool, with interesting personalities but they require very clean water, and are said to be more susceptible to disease than other fish (due to faint body scales and no head scales). 

Your nitrates are way too high for them. If you could describe your tank and filtration methods that would help others to determine weak areas and maybe even the cause of your losses that happened. If you had recently introduced new fish or plants that would signify infection of some sort. If not your nitrogen levels may have overstressed the fish and they suffered and died due to the toxins in the water. I would do a partial water change to get your nitrates down right away taking care not to stress your fish. Do you use tap water, RO or distilled in your tank? I would add the clean water in slowly and take care not to shift your parameters too quickly on your tank. Drastic changes are not good for any tank so I'd work on keeping your water clean and those nitrates below 15 for the yo yo at this point.

Researching fish diseases may help you determine what happened to the others...

Heather


----------



## HSA1255 (Apr 2, 2013)

Tank medications affect many loaches differently than other fish. Treatments done in tanks with loaches are often cut in half because of their sensitivity to medications. Had you treated your tank with any meds before the yo yo die offs? 

This site may have some info that is helpful;

http://www.loaches.com/


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

worms maybe without photos, ???


----------



## Matthew RJ (Jul 4, 2012)

Any other fish in the tank?


----------



## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Some Loaches can be a bit aggressive toward each other, or might just be playing, but they may play rough. 
Not knowing, but perhaps a couple of them got in a fight, hurt each other enough to die, and the resulting water quality killed the others. Stressed Loaches can produce excess slime coat that can put other fish at risk. 

What I would do:
1) Get the water chemistry under control. Thoroughly clean the tank and filter, perhaps over a couple of weeks, with large (50%) water changes. Get rid of accumulating debris, and get a clean start. 
2) While this is going on, research what fish you want to keep. Loaches are fun, but maybe try a different species? Kubotais are nice, or Zebras, or any of several others. Aim for fish not over 6" adult size, and 4" max would be better if it is a highly active species.


----------



## Tabby (Nov 24, 2012)

Thank you all of you.

At the time, I had also had 1 Three Spot Gourami, 5 Dwarf Gouramis, 1 Zebra Danio, 3 Harlequin Rasboras, 1 Kuhli Loach, 1 Cherry Barb, and 1 Chinese Algae Eater. I added the algae eater back in May or June. He disappeared around August now that I think about it.

I have 3 kinds of plants: Bacopa monnieri, Pennywort, and Rotala macrandra (I'm guessing on the exact species).

I have used a Marineland Penguin 350 filter with 4 pads and two Biowheels since 2012. I replace 2 pads every 3 months or so, because I had thought that my parameters were perfect. I use a 300 watt Hydor Heater, never had any problems. Because I thought my parameters were good until this week, I only did a 25-50% water change every 2 months. I will get on that water change asap.

I use tap water with Water Conditioner and pH Down. The pH in my tap water is alkaline- I'm reading 7.8. I have not used any medications on my tank since early 2013, before I got my loaches.

I have not added any fish to my tank since, but I have lost a few. I now have:
1 Three Spot Gourami
3 Dwarf Gouramis
3 Harlequin Rasboras
1 Cherry Barb
1 Yoyo Loach
1 Kuhli Loach

I loved my Yoyos, and thankfully I've never had any real fish aggression.

@mistergreen, I'm not sure what you meant by that...

@Diana, you mean like scrub the tank down? I don't really have anywhere to put my fish in that case...


----------



## ErtyJr (Jun 21, 2014)

One bit of information I can share is that some CAE when they get larger turn highly aggressive and will often kill or eat fish, eat scales off the living fish, bite out eyes, ect.

Not all CAE do this but it does happen. it generally happens very suddenly when the juvenile becomes an adult fish. Not fully grown but reaches sexual maturity. Some shift from algae eating to fish murderer.


----------



## Tabby (Nov 24, 2012)

ErtyJr said:


> One bit of information I can share is that some CAE when they get larger turn highly aggressive and will often kill or eat fish, eat scales off the living fish, bite out eyes, ect.
> 
> Not all CAE do this but it does happen. it generally happens very suddenly when the juvenile becomes an adult fish. Not fully grown but reaches sexual maturity. Some shift from algae eating to fish murderer.


Yes, I've heard the stories, and my old CAE would eat dead fish. However, the only fish that ever killed anyone was my old male Three Spot. He was a nasty brute. Chomper, my CAE, was definitely my favorite fish.

Incidentally, he also died a horrific and mysterious death. I might as well ask about that here, too.

Does anyone know what would cause a fish to start jumping? Two years ago I had a 4 year old CAE. He started spinning and swimming upside down one day, but I thought nothing of it because he did that sometimes... One night, about 2 days after the spinning began, he started jumping. Then the next morning, he was there propped up on the walls of the tank. His face was purple with bruises. He died four days later, in a bucket I moved him to so he wouldn't hurt himself. It was an incredibly traumatic ordeal.

Does anyone know WHY he would have done this?


----------



## Tabby (Nov 24, 2012)

UPDATE: I finished my 50% water change, but the Nitrate results are unchanged? Either that, or they are worse... My tap water's Nitrates are at 0 ppm. Help?


----------



## devilduck (May 9, 2012)

Did you shake the crap out of the test bottles? They need to be really well mixed.


----------



## Tabby (Nov 24, 2012)

devilduck said:


> Did you shake the crap out of the test bottles? They need to be really well mixed.


I was only doing it for Bottle 2, thanks for the clarification. *Sigh.* Third test and still Kool-aid Red.


----------



## HSA1255 (Apr 2, 2013)

I'd go buy another test kit and run water parameter testing again. If the new kit shows your nitrates read normal you have a bad kit on your hands, or an expired one perhaps? While you are out it may be a good idea to pick up distilled water to have in case your 2nd test kit shows high nitrates again. If the 2nd attempt does say high nitrates I'd add take water out again and add distilled super slowly to the tank. Sorry you are having troubles. At least if you verify your test is good you will be able to determine if it really is a water issue or not. Could your tank have crashed and be in the process of re-cycling? Keep doing water changes so that your existing fish are not hurt... 
I am only trying to trouble shoot so please do not be offended by my asking; are you using a de-chlorinator when you add new tap water in? Have you used or are you using ammonia removers in this tank? Ammonia removers can starve a biological filter, causing the cycling process to start over and over again... 
I'm sure you will get this sorted out, as plenty on this site have a lot of experience. 
I'd verify your test is good by getting another kit and perhaps do a small water change using distilled, no chemical additives to the tank.


----------



## Oceangirl (Feb 5, 2013)

Stop using Ph down too, that is causing swings in your Ph. Ph down only works for a little while and think it only lasts like 1-2 days then your water is right back to where it was and it is not good for the fish.


----------



## HSA1255 (Apr 2, 2013)

Oh yes, I should have caught that above. I also agree that you should stop using the pH down. Distilled, driftwood or almond leaves are all better ways to lower pH in my opinion.


----------



## Tabby (Nov 24, 2012)

HSA1255 said:


> I'd go buy another test kit and run water parameter testing again. If the new kit shows your nitrates read normal you have a bad kit on your hands, or an expired one perhaps? While you are out it may be a good idea to pick up distilled water to have in case your 2nd test kit shows high nitrates again. If the 2nd attempt does say high nitrates I'd add take water out again and add distilled super slowly to the tank. Sorry you are having troubles. At least if you verify your test is good you will be able to determine if it really is a water issue or not. Could your tank have crashed and be in the process of re-cycling? Keep doing water changes so that your existing fish are not hurt...
> I am only trying to trouble shoot so please do not be offended by my asking; are you using a de-chlorinator when you add new tap water in? Have you used or are you using ammonia removers in this tank? Ammonia removers can starve a biological filter, causing the cycling process to start over and over again...
> I'm sure you will get this sorted out, as plenty on this site have a lot of experience.
> I'd verify your test is good by getting another kit and perhaps do a small water change using distilled, no chemical additives to the tank.


Crashed? What would cause that?

I do use Aqueon Water Conditioner.

In a terrible development, I bought a new kit, and the results are still the same shade of red.

Well, my pH has been at a stable 6.0 for 2 years now. Actually I do remember it remaining at 6.0 even when I didn't use pH Down once... I suppose I could stop it, I'm near the end of the bottle anyway.

Regarding the distilled water... I mean, how much? My tank 55 gallons.


----------



## lee739 (Oct 12, 2014)

The nitrate test shows little colour change after you go through 40-80ppm IMO, especially if you are comparing to the colour chart. I would do 50% w/c every couple of days until the nitrate test shows an orange colour, then you are probably more like 10-20ppm.
I've stopped using the colour chart altogether, and run a couple of known concentration samples in parallel to compare to.


----------



## Tabby (Nov 24, 2012)

Thank you all for your advice.

I don't mean to impose, but I made a thread in the General Planted Tank Discussion Forum called "Overhauling Neglected 55 Gallon, Guidance Needed" that I think this discussion should be moved to. I don't mean to be thankless in any way, I am finding all of your input very kind and helpful, but I made this thread to find out what the red stringy protrusions were that extruded out of my loaches as they died. Or what caused my Chinese Algae Eater to bash into the hood of the tank until it killed him.

Sorry, I know I need to fix the current Nitrate situation, and I still need help with that. I just want to make sure that the original topic doesn't get lost- what happened to my fish really confused and disturbed me.


----------



## HSA1255 (Apr 2, 2013)

It is a very valid concern wanting to know what happened with your fish. I think if you post the photos more people will be able to help you with the concerns you have regarding what went on with them. 

How long had it been since you added new fish or plants to that tank? I am wondering if a parasite or sickness could have been introduced into the tank or was it an unchanged environment? 

Here is a link talking about something similar that happened to a tiger barb, perhaps it was prolapse... not sure why other deaths followed though? Had you fed them something new? Maybe they could not digest something they ate... ? Again, I think pictures would help others on the site determine cause of death.

http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/tiger-barb/108215-tiger-barb-intestines-hanging-out.html


----------



## ErtyJr (Jun 21, 2014)

Tabby said:


> UPDATE: I finished my 50% water change, but the Nitrate results are unchanged? Either that, or they are worse... My tap water's Nitrates are at 0 ppm. Help?


What that means is your nitrates are insanely high.

I highly highly recommend NOT doing 50% water changes. You need to do many many 25% changes. Once a day do a 25% tops but as low as 15% may be preferable. This is going to take a lot longer and be a lot more work on you, but, it's in your fish's best interest.

With nitrates as high as yours are you need to be careful of sending them into shock. Reducing the nitrates too fast is more deadly to you fish than actual nitrate poisoning! Trust me I know it to be true. I killed my fish once a long time ago with a 50% water change when my nitrates were to high.


----------



## Clear Water (Sep 20, 2014)

Have you tested your tap water for nitrates? If you did a 50% water change it should of cut your nitrates in half. You must have nitrates in your tap water.


----------



## ErtyJr (Jun 21, 2014)

Clear Water said:


> Have you tested your tap water for nitrates? If you did a 50% water change it should of cut your nitrates in half. You must have nitrates in your tap water.


Not MUST. I think it's more likely that there is nitrate above 40-80 because the test shows very little difference from 40-80 and even less difference for anything over 80. The most likely situation is that the nitrates are so far beyond 80 that cutting it in half left it above 80.


----------



## Tabby (Nov 24, 2012)

Clear Water said:


> Have you tested your tap water for nitrates? If you did a 50% water change it should of cut your nitrates in half. You must have nitrates in your tap water.


Yes. Nitrates are at 0 ppm in my tap water.


----------



## lee739 (Oct 12, 2014)

ErtyJr said:


> Not MUST. I think it's more likely that there is nitrate above 40-80 because the test shows very little difference from 40-80 and even less difference for anything over 80. The most likely situation is that the nitrates are so far beyond 80 that cutting it in half left it above 80.


ErtyJr is right. The nitrate test does not discriminate between high nitrate levels well. ie if your tank nitrates are 400, and you do a 50% change - they will be 200, but will look basically unchanged at the test tube, as will 100, and probably 50 too....
But like Erty said - too many 50% changes may osmotically shock the fish if they aren't used to it, and clearly they aren't if nitrates are this high.


----------



## Clear Water (Sep 20, 2014)

Maybe you should test half tank water and half tap water and do side by side test and see if there is any color difference. If not half and half how about 25% tank water and 75% tap water to see how much water you would have to change to get your nitrates down.


----------



## Tabby (Nov 24, 2012)

That is a good idea. I will have to try it when I can. However, I sprained my ankle Monday night, and can't stand up on my own, so tank maintenance is temporarily on hold. 

I might be able to do that test in the mean time.


----------



## QuoVadis (Feb 5, 2012)

I would stop using the pH down also, I think stability in pH is more important than being in the "ideal" range for your fish.


----------



## Tabby (Nov 24, 2012)

All right then. I posted the results of that experiment in the other thread I mentioned earlier. Anyone following my Nitrate issues, please continue the discussion here:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=804042

I am currently determining whether I will be able to post the images of my deceased Yoyo loach. That will hopefully close this case once and for all.


----------



## MrRiboflavin (Oct 7, 2013)

You shouldn't ever mess with the ph. Fish take an extremely long time to adapt to ph. A stable is far more important than whatever ph rating you are trying to adjust to.


----------



## Tabby (Nov 24, 2012)

Yes, I see. I won't be using any pH Down anymore.

On the thread in the link, you will see that I am hoping to incorporate three pieces of Mopani into my tank. However, my Nitrates are my top priority at the moment.

This thread in particular was made with the hope of diagnosing the condition/phenomenon that killed 4 of my Yoyo loaches.


----------



## Tabby (Nov 24, 2012)

UPDATE: I have conferred with Moderation and the photos will not be posted. Those who have seen the photos have suggested that the ailment was parasitic. My hypothesis is that the CAE was infected, died, and then was eaten by four of the loaches. There have been no signs of illness in my tank since that day in November.

Should I still treat for parasites? If so, any loach safe suggestions? I keep getting results for Levamisole, but I they're all outdated and it appears that Levamisole is under restricted sale.


----------



## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Red thread-like stuff coming out of the vent of the fish is a parasite Camalanus. If none of your fish are currently sick or showing signs of this parasite, I do not know if they have it (and it is too small a population yet) or if they are clear. 

Looks like this guy is still in business, a source of Levamisol and apparently a good source of information:
http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ItemsForSale.html

Other 'red' associated with fish:
If fish have an internal bacterial infection it can look red under the skin. Should not be red (or any other color) threads or strings coming off the fish, though (or am I misunderstanding your description?) The red under the skin might look like an area of red, or lines of red. 

Many internal parasites spend some time on the floor of the tank, often it is how they get picked up by another fish. 
Bottom feeding fish are especially subject to picking up parasites like this. 

Quarantine all new fish, and treat bottom feeders (perhaps all fish) for internal parasites. 
I have treated Clown Loaches that were barely 1" long (Tiny babies!) with Levamisol. It is safe. They grew a lot faster than non-treated fish, leading me to think most fish are infested. 

What I meant above about 'thoroughly clean the tank' is to do a deeper than average gravel vac and clean the filter really well. I know the substrates in planted tanks are not usually deep vacuumed, but use the end of the siphon or another tool to gently disturb the top of the substrate to break loose any debris that might be lingering. I will go to your water quality post and see if I can add more there.


----------

