# I'm so confused....help!



## Monica (Mar 1, 2017)

My tank has been setup for a little over a year now. I wanted live plants this time around so I talked to a guy at my local fish store and he told me java fern can pretty much survive under any circumstances so I went with that. It's been a year and although it hasn't died it hasn't really grown too much. I'm using marineland led lights that came with the tank and black sand that I put in the tank before deciding I wanted live plants. I don't dose anything.

I want to buy a new light fixture that's pretty cheap. I was thinking a coralife dual t5 or the Odyssey dual t5. But I have no idea what I'm supposed to be looking for in a good plant light. My tank is 4ft long and 2ft tall. Will either of these lights be enough to grow plants in my tank?

I was also think about adding plant substrate to the sand I currently have. What's a cheap substrate that would mix well with my black sand? Can I even mix them?

Also, I don't really want to dose the tank if that's at all possible. 

Plants I want to keep....
Java fern
Jungle val
Anubias
Amazon sword
Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


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## elusive77 (Sep 27, 2016)

Let me just give you my thoughts....

All of your plants, including the ones you want to keep will do fine in low light conditions. Java ferns are just very slow growers, especially in low light. So it's not surprising it hasn't grown much. You could probably buy some cheap ferts and start dosing once a week and get better growth. That would be a very easy route to go. And you could still add all of the plants in your list, without upgrading your lights.

If you do upgrade your lights, you will have to dose ferts, and much more often. If you get into the medium light range, you will probably need to start adding co2 as well, at least diy if not pressurized. If you just add new lights, your plants will want to grow faster and won't have the nutrients to do it. They will actually get worse, and algae will start to take over your tank.

So in my opinion, if you want to stay low tech, don't worry about lights right now. Start dosing low light/weekly EI ferts, add the plants you want, and see how things go. If that works well and you decide you want plants with higher requirements and want to make the jump into medium/high tech, then start looking at lights.....and co2. 

That being said, if you want a cheap fixture, I would look at some of the Beamswork LED fixtures on Amazon. Although if your tank is really 24" tall you might end up needing more than one, or a more expensive fixture to get you into the medium light range.


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## Monica (Mar 1, 2017)

elusive77 said:


> Let me just give you my thoughts....
> 
> All of your plants, including the ones you want to keep will do fine in low light conditions. Java ferns are just very slow growers, especially in low light. So it's not surprising it hasn't grown much. You could probably buy some cheap ferts and start dosing once a week and get better growth. That would be a very easy route to go. And you could still add all of the plants in your list, without upgrading your lights.
> 
> ...


I don't want high light. I wanted more low/medium light. Right now my leds are enough to light the tank but they aren't actually meant for plants. The java fern has grown a tiny bit in the last year but a lot of the leaves dont look very healthy. I'm sure these lights wouldn't be so bad if my tank wasn't so tall. I was thinking the lights I mentioned would be considered low/medium in my tank since it would be about 1.8 watts per gallon and from what little research I did 1wpg is low light and 2 wpg is medium light. Is that not how this works? This is so confusing lol.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Why do you not want to dose? Seems too tedious? too complicated to figure out how to dose? Well, I'd like to recommend that you should look at that first. Please spend some time skimming this: DarkBlade's Primer to Planted Tanks. The short short version of all that reading is this: in order to grow plants successfully, you have to maintain a proper balance between lights, nutrients, and co2. Ignoring the part about WPG (because a lot of people use LEDs now, the rating of what you want is PAR), the principles in the post are sound.

Many moons ago, I made your mistake of getting a better light to push the growth of my plants, but this was before I knew about maintaining the proper balance. All it did was to cause my plants to starve even more and deteriorate. And this brought on algae. That was a whole other odyssey. 

I was intimidated of having to figure out how to and maintaining a regimen of dosing, but think of it like this, do you feed your fish? Then you probably ought to feed your plants. Do you keep a garden or houseplants? What happens when you don't add fertilizer after the soil gets old? If you don't have a substrate that naturally carries nutrients (think aquasoil or real soil), at the very minimum, if you want off the shelf products, you can start with something like flourish comprehensive or root tabs, and a little bit of excel for co2 supplementation. See how that works out for you. You might be surprised at what your existing LED light can do. If you want to look into it more and save some money, you can buy the fertilizing solutions that the members here make or if you really want bang for the buck, buy the dry powder and start mixing it yourself (but I understand here's where things get a little daunting at first). 

The minute you get a better light, you're elevating the game. You'll be putting more pressure on the need for nutrients and co2. If you're reaaaally set against dosing, some people get away with not dosing by using root tabs or real organic soil capped with sand. You'll see people refer to it as a 'dirted tank.' The soil comes with a boatload of nutrients that gets taken up over time and you get a good while of use before you see any detriment. However you do it, you have to feed the plants. There's no alternative for that.

This rabbit hole of a hobby is deep and you're just getting started!


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## elusive77 (Sep 27, 2016)

Watts per gallon was an old way to estimate amount of light needed. It really doesn't work that well, especially with all of the different sizes of tanks. It doesn't work at all with the new LED lights. PAR is the commonly used measurement now to determine low/med/high (<30/30-80/>80) light. Some fixtures have posted par ratings, but most don't. There are threads on this site that give PAR values for some of the more common fixtures, but not a lot. 

I have never used anything but LED lights, so I can't give recommendations on T5 lighting. There are others who could probably help with that. I chose LED because they have lower power consumption and you don't have to change the bulbs every 6 months. So they are much cheaper in the long run. My recommendation would be this reasonably priced Beamswork fixture. I doubt it would get you into the medium light category, but definitely good low light. There are other options if you want more light, but they are more expensive. I would start with something like this and add a 2nd fixture later if you want more light.


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## elusive77 (Sep 27, 2016)

I just read what Ipkiss said and I totally agree. No matter what you decide to do about the light, you need to start dosing ferts. It's really not that difficult or expensive. You can buy a whole set of dry ferts for very little money and they will last you for a year or more. There are a ton of threads here about the EI method. Do some searches and read up on it. We all had to start somewhere and most of us really started learning here, from the wonderful members of this forum. So if you get confused and have questions, we are happy to help.


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## Monica (Mar 1, 2017)

ipkiss said:


> Why do you not want to dose? Seems too tedious? too complicated to figure out how to dose? Well, I'd like to recommend that you should look at that first. Please spend some time skimming this: DarkBlade's Primer to Planted Tanks. The short short version of all that reading is this: in order to grow plants successfully, you have to maintain a proper balance between lights, nutrients, and co2. Ignoring the part about WPG (because a lot of people use LEDs now, the rating of what you want is PAR), the principles in the post are sound.
> 
> Many moons ago, I made your mistake of getting a better light to push the growth of my plants, but this was before I knew about maintaining the proper balance. All it did was to cause my plants to starve even more and deteriorate. And this brought on algae. That was a whole other odyssey.
> 
> ...


I don't mind dosing liquid nutrients so much. What I really meant was pressurized co2. I want to keep cost down as much as possible and still have a nice looking tank. 
Ive actually never kept plants or anything lol. So I did not know that you have to replace soil. 
I did want to add plant substrate I've seen a lot of people keep cost down by using organic miracle grow with sand on top. If I went this route what else would I need to dose? How often? Do I have to replace the miracle grow, if so when and how?


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## Monica (Mar 1, 2017)

elusive77 said:


> I just read what Ipkiss said and I totally agree. No matter what you decide to do about the light, you need to start dosing ferts. It's really not that difficult or expensive. You can buy a whole set of dry ferts for very little money and they will last you for a year or more. There are a ton of threads here about the EI method. Do some searches and read up on it. We all had to start somewhere and most of us really started learning here, from the wonderful members of this forum. So if you get confused and have questions, we are happy to help.


What kind of dry ferts do I need and where cam I buy them?


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## Jmcdaniel0 (Feb 14, 2017)

Monica said:


> What kind of dry ferts do I need and where cam I buy them?


I think one of the easiest ways for you to get your feet wet on dosing would be to pick up some SeaChem Fourish Root tabs.

https://www.amazon.com/Seachem-Flourish-Tabs-10-Count/dp/B000255QLG

They will get you most of the way there. I am a big fan of SeaChem, I have used them for years in my saltwater tanks. They also have Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Potassium. They are relatively cheap and easy to dose. Just follow the directions on the bottle.

https://www.amazon.com/Seachem-1160...rd_wg=DiCv0&psc=1&refRID=5GXGKSR6BHP7NPBMEAT3

https://www.amazon.com/Flourish-Pho...rd_wg=MCV4F&psc=1&refRID=RPC46HV123P5SQYKYSVX

https://www.amazon.com/Seachem-6710...rd_wg=G0hJa&psc=1&refRID=20QB1W8J15NAM4Q3WAYF


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## elusive77 (Sep 27, 2016)

Monica said:


> What kind of dry ferts do I need and where cam I buy them?


While the Seachem stuff is arguably easier, it is way more expensive. I recommend buying the dry ferts. You can buy them in a lot of places like Green Leaf Aquarium or through Nilocg, who is a member here, and his site. I would recommend getting KNO3 and KH2PO4 for your macros. That gets you N, P, and K. And then a micro like CSM+B. Those are the basics. That will really get you everything you need for your plants. Later you could get supplemental DTPA iron or K2S04 for extra K, but those are more situational if you find you need them.

As far as dosing, use Rotala Butterfly. It has a fert calculator. Just put in your tank size, select the fert, and then use EI Low light/weekly. That will give you the amount you need to dose once a week for each of the ferts. You might want to buy a cheap set of small size measuring spoons to use. They have them for cheap on Amazon. I still recommend reading up on the EI method so you are not just blindly adding stuff into your tank. It will help tremendously to understand what you are doing and why.


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## Jmcdaniel0 (Feb 14, 2017)

elusive77 said:


> While the Seachem stuff is arguably easier, it is way more expensive. I recommend buying the dry ferts. You can buy them in a lot of places like Green Leaf Aquarium or through Nilocg, who is a member here, and his site. I would recommend getting KNO3 and KH2PO4 for your macros. That gets you N, P, and K. And then a micro like CSM+B. Those are the basics. That will really get you everything you need for your plants. Later you could get supplemental DTPA iron or K2S04 for extra K, but those are more situational if you find you need them.
> 
> As far as dosing, use Rotala Butterfly. It has a fert calculator. Just put in your tank size, select the fert, and then use EI Low light/weekly. That will give you the amount you need to dose once a week for each of the ferts. You might want to buy a cheap set of small size measuring spoons to use. They have them for cheap on Amazon. I still recommend reading up on the EI method so you are not just blindly adding stuff into your tank. It will help tremendously to understand what you are doing and why.


You are correct of course, but my intent was the easiest and most cost effective way to get started. Using calculators and buying individual ferts, can be daunting(or it was for me, and still is) so I went with what I know. Which is Seachem. To each their own, and to the OP, keep in mind is with any aquarium, there is a million different ways to do the same thing, and most everyone has a different way that works for them. 

The best you can do is what you are doing, ask for advice, and then take the advice and apply it in your own way.

But remember the Idea of an aquarium is to enjoy it and have fun. Dont make it more complicated and stressful.


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## elusive77 (Sep 27, 2016)

Jmcdaniel0 said:


> You are correct of course, but my intent was the easiest and most cost effective way to get started. Using calculators and buying individual ferts, can be daunting(or it was for me, and still is) so I went with what I know. Which is Seachem.


I agree with you. There are many ways to accomplish the same thing and some of it is personal preference. And yes, dry ferts can be daunting, even though in reality it is very simple. That's why I'm offering the OP help to get past the daunting stage. Others have done the same for me. 

I do disagree on Seachem being more cost effective though. You can get the full dry fert set for $23 shipped, and they will last you for years. Seachem NPK is $19 on Amazon, add Flourish at $11 and it's already more expensive than dry, and it won't last even close to as long. Dry ferts are just as easy as liquid - measure it out and dump it in the tank.

But yes, there are other options. It would be nice if others chimed in as well, so there are more opinions and experiences. Anyone?


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## Monica (Mar 1, 2017)

Jmcdaniel0 said:


> elusive77 said:
> 
> 
> > While the Seachem stuff is arguably easier, it is way more expensive. I recommend buying the dry ferts. You can buy them in a lot of places like Green Leaf Aquarium or through Nilocg, who is a member here, and his site. I would recommend getting KNO3 and KH2PO4 for your macros. That gets you N, P, and K. And then a micro like CSM+B. Those are the basics. That will really get you everything you need for your plants. Later you could get supplemental DTPA iron or K2S04 for extra K, but those are more situational if you find you need them.
> ...


So I think I'd rather spend a bit more and buy the Seachem stuff. I found this 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00025696M/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

Would that be enough or do I also need the others you mentioned? If I use this it would only be $11.55 for 100 weeks so thats almost 2 years which sounds great to me lol.

As far as root tabs would they work for my rhizome plants that are not planted or is that only for root feeding plants?

Should I also dose the Seachem co2?


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## Yukiharu (May 3, 2014)

If you want you can get some size 00 gel caps and Osmocote+ dry fertilizer pellets. Fill the caps with pellets and you have root tabs 
Not sure if fertilizers can burn skin or not but I'd wear gloves just to be safe.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Monica said:


> So I think I'd rather spend a bit more and buy the Seachem stuff. I found this
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00025696M/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1


Seachem's Comprehensive is a micro fert, contains iron(some) and other micro nutrients.
Many fall into this issue, it offers no macros.
There is no one bottle fix all.
If you buy the full line NPK&Comp you're out about $48 in 500ml sizes.

NilocG.com for $16 gets EI package, additional iron is like $8 more.
It will all last way longer than Seachem liquids too.

There are solution mixes and dosing descriptions available too.
You could even replicate the Seachem bottles if you wish to have separate solutions.


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## MtAnimals (May 17, 2015)

Doesn't nilocG still have the EI fert kit? it's like 20 bucks,and comes with 2 bottles with ei on the side,and ferts premixed for macros and micros.the EI dosing is right on the side of the bottle,and you just mix with distilled water,and mine has lasted me on several tanks over a year.

I'm not using co2 and doing fractional EI.Kinda the best of both worlds.


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## Jmcdaniel0 (Feb 14, 2017)

elusive77 said:


> Let me just give you my thoughts....
> 
> All of your plants, including the ones you want to keep will do fine in low light conditions. Java ferns are just very slow growers, especially in low light. So it's not surprising it hasn't grown much. You could probably buy some cheap ferts and start dosing once a week and get better growth. That would be a very easy route to go. And you could still add all of the plants in your list, without upgrading your lights.
> 
> ...


Ill second the Beamswork Lights. I have two I ordered from flebay, and they work great on my 40b. If you would like the link just shoot me a pm.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

MtAnimals said:


> Doesn't nilocG still have the EI fert kit? it's like 20 bucks,and comes with 2 bottles with ei on the side,and ferts premixed for macros and micros.


Yes the premixed is available.
If enough NO3 is generated from fish waste it cannot be removed from the premix.
Elevated NO3 then just leads to more WC's which some tend to neglect.


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## elusive77 (Sep 27, 2016)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Seachem's Comprehensive is a micro fert, contains iron(some) and other micro nutrients.
> Many fall into this issue, it offers no macros.
> There is no one bottle fix all.
> If you buy the full line NPK&Comp you're out about $48 in 500ml sizes.
> ...


+1 on this. You would need the Seachem NPK pack as well. There is a $20 pack for the 100 ml bottles. According to the reviews those last about 2-3 months in a 10G tank. If you want to do that, just follow the instructions on the bottles. But the dry ferts are so much cheaper. For a little over $20 shipped you can have enough ferts to last for several years, probably more in a 10G. The Rotala Butterfly site has a calculator to help you make them into a liquid version if you want. Really if you can follow a recipe you can dose dry ferts.


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## Kalyke (Dec 1, 2014)

A lot of people go for plants like Java Fern, Anubias, Bucephalandra because they grow slowly, and therefore do not overwhelm the "garden design" of their tank. Think of it as having a very agressive plant that goes wild, verses a nice tidy plant that stays where you planted it in the first place. Slow growing plants are great, but they are also slow, and if you want them to fill your tank up, then you actually have to buy a lot of them.


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## jr125 (Mar 5, 2015)

Monica said:


> So I think I'd rather spend a bit more and buy the Seachem stuff. I found this
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00025696M/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1
> 
> ...


As mentioned, the Seachem Flourish is mainly a micro nutrient. That is it doesn't contain very much nitrogen, phosphate or potassium. Many times the nitrogen and phosphates are readily available in a tank via fish food and waste. Especially low to medium light tanks with undemanding plants such as yours. If you are maintaining a nitrate level in the10-30ppm range with your routine water changes you are probably just fine there. It's possible you may need to supply additional potassium, either dry or liquid. The Jungle Vals are sensitive to liquid co2 supplements but many are able to acclimate them by starting with a reduced dose and working up over a period of time. The root tabs would be fine for the plants in the substrate, the rhizome plants get their nutrients though the water column.

So if your nitrates are in a reasonable range and you are using some root tabs for the substrate plants, I would just dose the flourish as a micro nutrient and see how things go. If you are needing potassium usually small pinholes will appear in the leaves and you can add that to the program.


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## johnson18 (Apr 29, 2011)

I have a couple of the Coralife dual t5ho lights and have always been pleased with them. After a couple years I replaced the bulbs with the Giesemann 6500k and Aquaflora, which definitely stepped it up a bit. I may have one of the Odyssey t5's too, I've got a couple different brands which I don't remember all of them. While the T5 lamps on your tank will provide medium light, the real way to handle things is by adjusting your photoperiod. If you want to be able to have your tank lit up more than your plants photo period, you can always use your current nonplant specific light to add a bit more time.
I would also recommend Colin's fertz. I did the whole Seachem line for a couple years when I first started in this hobby & it was definitely way more expensive.


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