# Jello's High Tech 125G- Significant Changes



## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Hi Everyone,

This journal has been a long time coming, but I wanted to be thorough and show everything I'm doing, so it took some time to get around to it. I'm going to do my best to give model numbers and links to everything I purchased, in case others like my ideas and decide to try it for themselves. This new build attempted to solve most of the quality of life problems of my last tank, so where I made those changes, I'm going to be sure to point it out! Without further ado, on to the tank!

*FTS 12/30/2020:*









Around the time Covid set in, my wife surprised me with an architectural drawing and plans for a new foyer, and it included a planted tank in the middle of the wall. I couldn't pass up the chance to say yes at this, and began the work to plan out the new tank.

*Built in:*









The trim work still needs to be done, but the plan is to build a bench and book cases along this wall, hiding the rim of the tank and truly building it into the wall. I'm trying to find the carpenter to do that work right now, but it will make a huge difference.

*Substrate:*
For the substrate in this tank, I used lava rock gravel capped with Black Diamond Blasting Sand. It's hard to see in this pic, but the substrate is mounded to 7-8" in places along the back.

*Hardscape*
There is a total of about 300 lbs of Black Sieryu Stone in this tank, purchased from Buceplant.com
https://buceplant.com/collections/aquascaping-rocks/products/black-mountain-seiryu-stone










*Plants:*
All of the plants were purchased at Buceplant.com, with the exception of the HC Cuba, which I bought at Greenleafaquariums.com
https://buceplant.com/
https://greenleafaquariums.com/

Ludwigia Repens sp. Super Red. This looks much more vibrant in person, but it wasn't captured well in pictures. My primary concern with this plant is some fading of the leaf flesh in between veins. I recently started dosing some Mg so I'm going to give it a few weeks to see how it responds. 










Eleocharis Acicularis. This took off like a weed, and has filled in between my hardscape nicely. My biggest problem here is Cory cats rooting around in it and uprooting plants.










'HC' Cuba. This plant is slow going for me. It's definitely spreading (not growing straight up), and it looks healthy, but it's growing very slowly. Add to that the aforementioned Cory Cats, and it's a trial in patience.










Eleocharis Vivipara. I want to love this plant; I truly do, but it's eventually getting yanked for something else. It doesn't spread via runners like EVERY OTHER DAMNED Eleocharis, but instead, by plantlets at the ends of the leaves. It's ugly, and it's infuriating. I want to plant something else back here, but I need to be careful. I don't want a Val or Crypt that's going to send runners everywhere, because I won't be able to dig them up. I'm leaning towards Eleocharis Montevidensis, but I'm getting conflicting information about trimming it. Can you just trim the top like normal hairgrass, or will it brown and die?










*Fauna* 
I don't have pictures of everything, but the stock list in this tank is:

8x Boesmani Rainbowfish (Juvenile)
9x Turquise Rainbowfish (Juvenile)
3x Torpedo Barb (looking for 3 more, but can't find any healthy stock near me, and it's way to cold out for shipping)
5x Siamese Algae Eater
6x Bronze Corydora
6x Panda Corydora
25x Amano shrimp
40x Nerite Snail

*Behind the Scenes:*










*Lighting:*
I'm using 3x sbreeflight basic, suspended from the ceiling. With both channels turned all the way down to minimum, I recorded 60 PAR at the substrate in the front of the tank. I'm leaving them only as high as needed to grow the HC Cuba (even if it is slow going). Once I eliminate all of the other causes, I might bump up the light on the far left to help redden the Ludwigia.

https://sbreeflights.com/sbox-freshwater-plant-lights/71-18-basic-fresh-water-plant.html










*Filtration:*
I'm using a Fluval FX6 for my primary filtration, with Seachem Matrix Biomedia and Seachem Purigen. I really didn't like the plastic outlet, but the largest Lily Pipe I could find was only 22mm in diameter. I contacted a local Glassblower and gave him the plans for a custom 1" Lily Pipe set. He shipped the outflow already, and the Inflow is supposed to be in the middle of January. I'm going to be making a separate post about the Lily Pipes, but I want to wait until they're both installed.

https://www.amazon.com/Fluval-Canis...ords=fx6&qid=1609370365&s=pet-supplies&sr=1-1
https://www.amazon.com/Matrix-4-L-1...m+matrix&qid=1609370382&s=pet-supplies&sr=1-2
https://www.amazon.com/Seachem-Puri...supplies&sprefix=seachem+puri,pets,163&sr=1-8



















*Heater:*
I'm using an Ista 500W Inline heater, connected to a separate water loop with my CO2. I'll get to that loop later...










*Fertilization:*

I'm dosing EI ferts from NiloCG, with a dosing pump from Jebao. The tubes are clipped to the edge of the tank by a design of my own, that I 3D printed from ABS. Auto Dosing is a huge quality of life improvement over manually dosing every day. I'm still monitoring my fert levels and adjusting as needed, but not having to dump ferts every day is a huge help!

https://www.nilocg.com/shop/ei-based-npk-csmb-fertilizer-aquarium-plants/
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B014KKCILE/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B010F5V0QC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


















*CO2:*
I have a separate loop built for my inline heater and CO2 reactor. For the reactor, I modified a Cerges Reactor to have three chambers, to help with dissolving the substantial amount of CO2 needed to drive a 125G, open topped tank with a ton of surface movement. The regulator and needle valve were purchase from @Joshism here on tpt. 

Pump:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009XSGHXY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


























In addition, a major improvement was adding a ph monitor to the tank. I went out and found a Hanna Instruments wireless ph probe and monitor, that will record ph readings at various intervals throughout the day. 

https://www.hannainst.com/edge-blu.html

You can then upload the recorded data, and chart your ph throughout the day. Here are some interesting findings... Initially, I was getting my full 1pt drop in ph, but it was taking a really long time to get there. As I increased the CO2 dosage to get my saturation earlier in the photoperiod, I was "overshooting the mark", and stressing the fish. From there, I increased my surface agitation to lower the peak CO2 levels, and found a nice happy medium. I HIGHLY recommend the following article from 2hraquarist for a really fascinating deep dive into the mechanics of CO2 levels

https://www.2hraquarist.com/blogs/choosing-co2-why/how-to-push-the-limits-of-co2-safely

I went back and forth increasing both my CO2 injection rate and my surface agitation, and was able to safely push a 1.4 ph drop without stressing the fish. This wouldn't have been possible without constant monitoring.


























*Waterchanging*
This was a big one for me. When I decided to accept the challenge of having a tank right in the middle of my foyer, it was under the condition that I have water and a sink right next to the tank. In addition to the sink, I also plumbed in a Honeywell Thermostatic Mixing Element, and have it set at 75 deg F. My syphon hose hooks over the rim of the tank, and has holes for the syphon to break at about 70% of the water, and the other end hooks over the sink right next door. I also have quick connect fittings, so I use the same hose to refill the tank.


























I think that's all for now! If you read this far, I would really appreciate any comments or criticism you might have. Let me know if you have any questions!


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Here are a few pictures of the fauna. I couldn't get one of the Boesmani, they're just too quick to get a good shot. I managed to get one of the Denison Barb, but he was moving quick too, so it's a bit blurry.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

LOL, Jealeous ! When I built my stand I had never though of going with a 6' tank. So, it's just would not do well with one tank :-(
With that said - nice start!!! Having water change water right there and a place to drain water without carrying buckets is a life saver. Your reactor should more than handle your 125g setup. Friend of my has a pair of reactors on a 700g planted tank it they work just fine. Looking at your Behind The Scenes and all the stuff you have on the shelves makes me wonder how much stuff I actually have tucked away in the 3 drawers next to my tank. Do really like your light setup - out of site which helps when viewing / taking pictures (fts). 
Looking forward to how things evolve with your use of hard scape. As various plants grow in and the rock "ages" it should look very nice.
LOL, blurry fish pics - would think those were taken by me. Getting clear pics of fast moving bows is something I feel like only Gregg is good at (I'm sure there are others, just not me).

Ok, quick question - thoughts on the Jebao doser? I really am in need of something for dealing with micro dosing on my 3 tanks.

Now to find the subscribe button...


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

The Jebao doser was much easier to set up than I thought. I got mine to dose on alternating days by setting the time "incorrectly". I set the internal clock 12 hours off, so it thinks noon is midnight. Then, I have each pump dosing every other day. Finally, I have my micros dosing at 23:59 and my macros dosing at 00:01. This results in alternating dosing days for the micros and macros, at noon. Lights come on at 2pm, so this works out well.

My biggest struggle with this is keeping the micros from growing mold. My latest attempt was mixing the micros with 50/50 water and excel, but it doesn't look like it worked. My next try will be a mix I found somewhere that included citric acid. I'll need to look that up again for the next refill.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Nice work around on the dosing schedule!
LOL, very small dorm fridge to hold the dosing containers. Small hole in the back for the hoses to exit.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Thats actually really, really clever. My luck I would drill right through a cooling hose, but this has potential!


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

That's really inspiring. I never knew about the temp mixing valve. That changes everything for future plans!


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

NotThePainter said:


> That's really inspiring. I never knew about the temp mixing valve. That changes everything for future plans!


A quick tip for the future, figure out how much you want to open your valve for refilling, then adjust your temp with that much flow. I found that when the temperature valve was set as low as we need it, the amount of water flow will change the temp slightly.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Just a few photos of some pretty intense pearling 😃


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Very impressive build. Love all the technology and the dedication it took to get there.

Look forward to seeing where it goes from here.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

jellopuddinpop said:


> Eleocharis Vivipara. I want to love this plant; I truly do, but it's eventually getting yanked for something else. It doesn't spread via runners like EVERY OTHER DAMNED Eleocharis, but instead, by plantlets at the ends of the leaves. It's ugly, and it's infuriating. I want to plant something else back here, but I need to be careful. I don't want a Val or Crypt that's going to send runners everywhere, because I won't be able to dig them up. I'm leaning towards Eleocharis Montevidensis, but I'm getting conflicting information about trimming it. Can you just trim the top like normal hairgrass, or will it brown and die?


Nice setup, the montevidensis is the one you want. I have it in my 3-footer and it's thicker than the vivipara, but stays clean all the way up. It's funny because I just trimmed some of the ends a few days ago just to see what happens. So I can let you know if they start to brown out. 

Another really nice plant that is NOT invasive via runners is Cyperus helferi


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Asteroid said:


> Another really nice plant that is NOT invasive via runners is Cyperus helferi


Will it propagate on its own, or does it need me to remove and replant plantlets?

The reason I'm concerned about something becoming crazy invasive, is because of my last tank. I use Crypt Balansaein the background, and I was literally cutting runners out daily, sometimes 6 or 8 a day. It had grown a web of roots throughout the entire bottom of the tank, and was like a hydra... whenever I cot one off, 2 grew in its place.

I know I'm being picky here, but Im looking for something that's going to spread by runners, but not send runners all over the damned tank. I was finding Crypts popping up 4 feet from the nearest mother plant.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

jellopuddinpop said:


> Will it propagate on its own, or does it need me to remove and replant plantlets?
> 
> The reason I'm concerned about something becoming crazy invasive, is because of my last tank. I use Crypt Balansaein the background, and I was literally cutting runners out daily, sometimes 6 or 8 a day. It had grown a web of roots throughout the entire bottom of the tank, and was like a hydra... whenever I cot one off, 2 grew in its place.
> 
> I know I'm being picky here, but Im looking for something that's going to spread by runners, but not send runners all over the damned tank. I was finding Crypts popping up 4 feet from the nearest mother plant.


It's a unique rosette-type plant in that instead of sending runners all over the place, they just develop at the base and can be left there or taking apart from the mother plant. It does need co2/good light. 

https://tropica.com/en/plants/plantdetails/Cyperushelferi(133A)/4574


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

jellopuddinpop said:


> I know I'm being picky here, but Im looking for something that's going to spread by runners, but not send runners all over the damned tank. I was finding Crypts popping up 4 feet from the nearest mother plant.



Vallisneria nana might fit the bill. Narrower leaves than typical val - almost grass-like. Mine get about two feet long. Runners can spread afar but easily corralled as they don't grow too deep with roots only below the shoots.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

I posted this in the fertilizer and water parameters forum, but wanted to add it here as well...

I'm seeing a deficiency in my Ludwigia sp. Super Red, and I just wanted to know if I'm correct. Before going any further, this is looking very washed out from my camera for some reason, but it's actually much more red than this. The difference in color between the veins and the flesh of the leaves is still there, just the whole leaf is far more red than these pictures.

My initial guess was a Mg deficiency, but I've been adding some with my water changes, and haven't noticed a difference in 2 weeks. My hard well water is almost all Ca, with very low Mg. Should I be adding more?

Parameters:
NO3- 10ppm
PO4- 2ppm
Ca- 70ppm
Mg- 7.5ppm
CO2- 40ppm
KH- 7.5
GH- 12
ph (degassed)- 7.8
Lighting- 80'ish PAR
Temp- 76F
BDBS substrate

EI Dosing (50%, low plant mass & new tank) with CSM+B


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## rzn7z7 (Aug 17, 2013)

jellopuddinpop said:


> I posted this in the fertilizer and water parameters forum, but wanted to add it here as well...
> 
> My initial guess was a Mg deficiency, but I've been adding some with my water changes, and haven't noticed a difference in 2 weeks. My hard well water is almost all Ca, with very low Mg. Should I be adding more?



You're nearly at 10:1 Ca:mg where many people keep their Ca:Mg ratio between 2:1 and 4:1 so I'd say it's worth a shot....it'll raise your GH, however, so I wouldn't lard it on, maybe just double for now


Any idea what your K is?


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

1/7/2021

I've been getting a tremendous amount of help in the Fertilizer and Water Parameters forum, and wanted to bring the information over here for easier viewing later.

In trying to diagnose a deficiency in my Ludwigia, a few different things were pointed out (in order):

With very high Ca, I need to try to get a little more Mg into the tank. I just recently started dosing 7.5ppm Mg, but after a few weeks, there has been little to no change in the leaf Chlorosis, and no change in the deformities in the new tips. While it wasn't harmful to add the Mg, it probably hasn't been doing much to help the problem.

The CSM+B mix that I've been using contains ETPA Fe, which is unstable at higher ph. With my high KH and hardness, this Fe wasn't getting to the plants. I added DTPA to my micros on 1/6 to see if there is any change. Look for an update on or around 1/28.

I was also turned on to "rolling my own" micros, and picked up the Micro package from @burr740. He was generous enough with his time to not only provide a baseline ratio to dose, but also answer a lot of my questions. This change will be happening around 2/5'ish, while I wait to run out of my current micro mix.

It was also pointed out that I've made an error in my tank by trying to have a minimalist Iwagumi style layout, and also adding some colorful stems. It was pointed out that the Iwagumi tanks you see run very lean to keep things clean, and they are able to do that because of the distinct lack of fast growing stem plants. In the event that this turns into a long term problem, then the E. Vivipara in the background is going to come out in favor of a variety of stem plants. Im not looking forward to having to trim 4" x 72" of stem plants, but if it will help with long term stability then it's going to have to happen.

I've decided to get my well water professionally tested for Ca, Mg, K, Fe, and all of the micros. I plan on using this in conjunction with the ratio that Burr gave me when mixing up my Micros.

Finally, I had tried turning my light up just a tad last week, in case that was what was slowing down my HC Cuba. The HC Cuba started growing much better, but I also started getting quite a bit of GDA on the rocks. What is the primary cause of GDA? Is it a lack of a specific nutrient, excess of a nutrient, or something else? I've read conflicting reports, one that says it's because of low P, one that says low N, and one that says it's just a symptom of a new tank, and it will clear up on its own. I'm thinking of increasing my Macros to bring my N up to 30ppm, but I'll need to buy individual macros in order to do it. As it stands, I'm using a Macro premix from NiloCG, and if I bring my N up to 30, I'll be bringing my P to around 8 (which seems high). It's nice to know that it's been the lighting that's been the limiting factor on the HC, but Im not sure how to increase it just yet without having a GDA explosion.

If you've made it this far in my post and have thoughts on the GDA and Macro situation, please feel free to chime in!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

jellopuddinpop said:


> 1/7/2021
> 
> I've been getting a tremendous amount of help in the Fertilizer and Water Parameters forum, and wanted to bring the information over here for easier viewing later.
> 
> ...


https://www.2hraquarist.com/blogs/a...-green-dust-algae?_pos=1&_sid=1e56f502b&_ss=r
This is one of Dennis's articles on the topic. I seem to remember there was a more in depth article but can't find it. Basically, his take on it is to much N "Tanks with high NO3 levels (above 10ppm)" I have been working on lowering my water column N to less than 10 - and then trying to keep it less than 10 throughout the week. I still have not mastered it yet.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

I've been under 10ppm since the tank was set up, and have been considering increasing dosage, not reducing it. If it was *just* N over 10ppm, then I wouldn't have it. There must be some other imbalance, or series of imbalances.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

The common denominator that I have always found in regards to algae is light and organics, not dosed fert levels. I easily have no3 north of 40ppm in a limited plant mass tank and don't have GSA. My tank has been running for about 18 months now. Light definitely accelerates algae so the more light you have the more the need to keep the tank "clean" organically. Fast growing plants are extremely effective since they remove ammonia/waste products almost immediately. The traditional bio-filter is not as efficient. If it was you could simply over-filter you tank and not have any algae which just doesn't happen. With a limited plant mass tank you need to have a short light peak period, sometimes semi-weekly water changes and yes put carbon in your filter. Anything that will reduce the organic load.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

That makes sense. Im currently running a 7hr photoperiod, but I could reduce that to 6 easily enough. Unfortunately the lights I have don't have any programming, so I can't do a ramp up or ramp down period at all. I'm going to start with the original plan of adding DTPA Fe, and then changing the micro mix a month from now. I have a hunch that getting Fe to the plants will increase macro uptake as well, so from there I might need to increase dosing. Baby steps, and 1 thing at a time.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Another thing to think about in terms of algae control is where the nitrate/phosphate is coming from. If you believe decaying organics releasing ammonia is the main culprit, then there's a difference between dosed nitrate and naturally accumulated nitrate. So if your nitrates are mostly from dosing then I wouldn't worry too much about their levels since when you dose no3 there's no ammonia in the equation. But the nitrates naturally in the tank came from decomposition then ammonia was there, so the no3 level from naturally accumulated organic decomposition is more an "indicator" that ammonia was there and caused the algae issue. It makes sense that extremely clean tanks don't have algae issues as much. This distinction is missed by many influencer websites.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

I try my best to keep a really clean tank. I do massive water changes, and remove any dead or dying plant matter whenever I see it. In addition, I have less NO3 in the tank at the end of the week than I'm dosing. We know plants prefer Ammonia, so this tells me that the plants must be consuming any free ammonia. If not, then I would see more NO3 than I'm dosing at the end of the week. Does that make sense, or am I getting something confused here?


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Immortal1 said:


> https://www.2hraquarist.com/blogs/a...-green-dust-algae?_pos=1&_sid=1e56f502b&_ss=r
> This is one of Dennis's articles on the topic. I seem to remember there was a more in depth article but can't find it. Basically, his take on it is to much N "Tanks with high NO3 levels (above 10ppm)" I have been working on lowering my water column N to less than 10 - and then trying to keep it less than 10 throughout the week. I still have not mastered it yet.



I feel some context might be warranted in this idea. I've pored over his 3 lines of APT fertilizers during my own tank frustrations last year and realized that even his middle of the road APT Complete puts in 


> Each 5ml per 100L dose adds 4ppm Potassium (K), 1.5ppm Nitrogen (NO3), 0.7ppm Phosphorus (PO4)


4 times a week with recommended 30% water changes at the end of the week. unless my calculations on rotalabutterfly are incorrect, after a few months, this nets an accumulation peak of close to 20ppm with no plant consumption. So you, @Immortal1, with a tank full of glorious stems, driving yourself down to 10ppm in water column might ... well, be futile. I'd say sure, reduce N, but only go low enough to not piss off your favorite stems and you're there.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

ipkiss said:


> I feel some context might be warranted in this idea. I've pored over his 3 lines of APT fertilizers during my own tank frustrations last year and realized that even his middle of the road APT Complete puts in
> 
> 
> 4 times a week with recommended 30% water changes at the end of the week. unless my calculations on rotalabutterfly are incorrect, after a few months, this nets an accumulation peak of close to 20ppm with no plant consumption. So you, @*Immortal1*, with a tank full of glorious stems, driving yourself down to 10ppm in water column might ... well, be futile. I'd say sure, reduce N, but only go low enough to not piss off your favorite stems and you're there.



Starting to wonder about this. My NO3 dosing gets lower and lower each week but the Salifert NO3 test still shows the water column above 10ppm. My guess is the only way I could consistently stay below 10ppm NO3 would be to stop feeding the fish...
Yeah, that probably won't happen. A LONG time ago when I started the planted tank journey I was convinced PPo Pro would never supply enough nutrients to feed my plants. At one point in time while dosing full EI + my NO3 level was a very dark red by the API test kit. and now I am back to, sorta, where I started. Sure there are other variables that are different, but... 

Weird, crazy little hobby we have going here!


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## Savetheplants (May 24, 2016)

You have built such a nice system. I love looking at pictures of techhnical achievements. Nice hardware and workspace. The Mg problem is an interesting one. How is that going? Do you use epsom salt? Does that add too much SO4? Definitely try the individual ferts. I've never used a mix or tried to make my own and I'm happy I haven't. It's not that bad going custom dosing. It gives you the agility you need to respond to situations. It does start to look like a black art to the laymen observing you though. My wife has no idea why I'm adding the stuff I add to the tank. When we go on vacation, our friends can handle feeding the fish but they can't handle fertilizing the plants even though I leave everything measured out for them to dose. I think this is because I told them to be careful with the NO3. I like the way you are automating dosing the micros. With automated macro mix dosing you could supplement with individual ferts.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

@Savetheplants thank you for the king words. Im adding a small amount of Mg, only because I'm pretty sure the well water has none. My problem, is I'll never be able to get up to 3:1 Ca:Mg, because that will send the hardness and TDS through the roof. I'm working on convincing my wife that I need an RO system, which will be a while new world for me.

Far a quick update, I tried trimming the Ludwigia to shape it a bit, and every stem that I trimmed is looking awful. It's sending out new stmes off of the main stem, but the original leaves almost immediately started to die. Is this normal for Ludwigia? Do I need to only top it and replant the tops, or can I trim?


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## Savetheplants (May 24, 2016)

I feel for you on the water. I lived somewhere with 50 dGH water. It's a bummer because you were making such progress with the automation and now you have to prepare your water. Respecting the RO system, I saved for seventeen years to buy my colorimeter. My wife hasn't said anything because for the last seventeen years I've had her help me read the colors on the test kits. Maybe she just got tired of helping me with that. RO water is kind of essential anyway because if you replace evaporated water with tap water you will build up your GH unacceptably high over time.


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## zivvel (Apr 17, 2013)

Hi, I just found your journal. I'm enjoying it so far, and I will follow along.

I just skimmed your other (ferts) thread to catch up but I did not see this mentioned. The seiryu will do more than raise KH. It does so by leeching CaCO3, and that means it drives the Ca concentration even higher. I run 3 tanks all with very similar parameters except that one has some seiryu in it. That one is more susceptible to algae, and that one seems to torture plants the most.

I am glad you are going to custom micros -- I think that is a huge step in the right direction. I'm a user & believer as well.

It is possible to get very red ludwigia in a tank with seiryu. It's not always possible to get good pictures of it, though! @burr740 & @Greggz put a lot of effort into getting the lighting, camera settings, and post-processing just right for their photos. It also may be difficult with your particular soup.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Nice setup with some automation you have built for yourself. 

I wonder if the mold forming in your fert dosing container is from temperature, light and stagnation or a combination of all of these. If temperature does not really enter the equation, could you not black out the dosing container with spray paint and add a simple agitation source? For agitation, I'm thinking something like adding an airline hooked to a small air pump that is controlled by a mechanical or digital timer. Advantage of a digital would be holding it's time should power go out and the option of turning on the air pump multiple times throughout the day. Of course, I am spit balling here and do not know if adding air bubbles to the ferts will change their chemical makeup or consistency. Maybe someone else more knowledgeable might chime in.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Asteroid said:


> _snip_ ...and yes put carbon in your filter. Anything that will reduce the organic load.


I just noticed this now... won't adding carbon to my filter also remove the micros I'm dosing? I'm not against it in principal, I just thought that carbon was counter productive when it came to dosing the tank.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

jellopuddinpop said:


> I just noticed this now... won't adding carbon to my filter also remove the micros I'm dosing? I'm not against it in principal, I just thought that carbon was counter productive when it came to dosing the tank.


That's a lot to do about nothing. There's talk that it might remove EDTA iron, but I have never seen any real proof of how much, if any of it is actually removed. The proof is in using it and growing healthy plants. It certainly doesn't remove anything else that I know of in way of ferts. In a limited plant mass tank, keeping it clean enough to avoid algae while using good light is difficult. The carbon is just another layer to remove organics. 

I use Carbon for two months with every startup and use it when I feel the tank might be challenged (removing alot of plant mass, etc.) ADA and Green Aqua use carbon when needed. ADA actually recommends that 75% of the filter media is carbon at startup. That is when the tank is most challenged, algae wise. From ADA:


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Asteroid said:


> That's a lot to do about nothing. There's talk that it might remove EDTA iron, but I have never seen any real proof of how much, if any of it is actually removed. The proof is in using it and growing healthy plants. It certainly doesn't remove anything else that I know of in way of ferts.


This is interesting and I would like to learn more. Like you, I doubt it does much to remove nutrients, but haven't found anything like a scientific study. 

Who knows might be worth running some for a month or something and see if there is any noticeable effect.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Well, I'm your guy lol. I have some green dust algae that I have to clean off the rocks. I've been doing half the tank at each water change (I have a lot of rock!), and it's not enough to keep up. I'll throw a bunch of activated carbon in this week's water change.

It's not going to be a perfect experiment, because I also run Purigen and will be changing it out this week for a fresh bag.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

jellopuddinpop said:


> Well, I'm your guy lol. I have some green dust algae that I have to clean off the rocks. I've been doing half the tank at each water change (I have a lot of rock!), and it's not enough to keep up. I'll throw a bunch of activated carbon in this week's water change.
> 
> It's not going to be a perfect experiment, because I also run Purigen and will be changing it out this week for a fresh bag.


Well good luck with your GDA experiment. The carbon can only help. Not saying carbon is a "magic bullet" against algae, but it is another preventive measure you can take to avoid issues. You don't really know where the threshold is for algae development in each tank so the more you throw at it the better IMO.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Interesting discussion on one of the Face Book groups..
Xiaozhuang Wong
If GSA or GDA is a persistent issue for many of you guys, its because you are locked into the thinking that you need to heavily saturate your water column with X ppm NO3/PO4. If you bother enriching your substrate a little, you can go much lighter with water column macros - get much cleaner growth. This tank has less than 5ppm NO3 in water column - with hardly detectable levels of PO4. Do you see GSA on any old leaves ? Don't get pigeon holed into thinking that GSA is always a lack of PO4 or that more will always give you better plant forms or color. If you think that algae on old leaves is normal or that wiping your glass every week due to dust algae is normal, then you may want to rethink your entire approach to planting tank keeping - because it certainly does not have to be that way.



My specific problem with "enriching your substrate" is I currently use Eco Complete which would probably fall into the "course inert substrate" category. I mention that specifically as it relates to this topic on Dennis's site
How to use osmocote for substrate in planted aquarium


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Yeah, a lot of the tanks you see from 2hr aquarist and others rely on an active substrate. Don't get me wrong, that's an awesome way to go, but it just wasn't feasible for me with the size tank I have.

I could add root tabs or something like that, but I've read too many horror stories about having unpredictable fert levels, and not being able to fix it once something's gone astray.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

The whole lean water column dosing and enriching the substrate really started with ADA, that's their dogma going back over 20 years now. I know when I use aquasoil I barely put anything in for the first 6 months other than some K and micros and the growth is clean and beautiful. 

You can also get there by keeping the water clean organically and dosing heavy (EI-ish) I literally have measured my 3-footer and I had 60-80 no3 and around 5 po4 and everything was clean. And the tank is as you know minimal in terms plant mass. Active soils are great, dirt definitely isn't for everyone and not really realistic IMO for many large setups run by typical planted aquarists.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

I'm pretty convinced that @Greggz and others are on the right track with crazy, over the top maintenance. Making sure there are zero dissolved organics, vacuuming your substrate, keeping a clean filter, over-filtration, etc etc etc very obviously has a good track record. I've been cleaning my filter every other week, and plan on putting a coarse pre-filter inside the end of my fluval outlet to clean more often.

I'm also considering swapping my CO2 loop out for the new Oase Biomaster Thermo 850 as well. I don't see any advantage to having a loop running an external heater and CO2 reactor, when I can power the CO2 reactor with a filter that has a built in heater. The only change would be adding more space for bio media, and that can never be a bad thing.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

So, I just got a new TDS meter (my last one was broken, and I was too lazy to get a new one. This is the first sampling I've taken from my tank, and I'm not sure if what I've found should be alarming or not.

I tested my tap water, and got a TDS of 175

Then, I tested my tank water (1 day before water change day), and got about 360. Obviously this is much higher, but after EI dosing and Sieryu stone leeching, should this number be alarming? Each week, I dose:

22ppm No3
3.9ppm PO4
12.8ppm K
10ppm Mg
2.7ppm all micros combined

This makes for a total addition of 51.4ppm fertilizers. I'm assuming the difference is from my Sieryu stones and fish waste.

With the TDS going up over double what I'm adding from the tap, does this mean I need to be doing more frequent water changes? Feeding less? Cleaning filter more often? 

If I decide to do 2x weekly water changes, should I add an extra dose of Macros after the water change to replace what I took out?

Last option, am I over thinking this? Is this what would be expected from an incredible amount of Sieryu stone in my tank?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

jellopuddinpop said:


> So, I just got a new TDS meter (my last one was broken, and I was too lazy to get a new one. This is the first sampling I've taken from my tank, and I'm not sure if what I've found should be alarming or not.
> 
> I tested my tap water, and got a TDS of 175
> 
> ...


Over thinking - probably not. It's not the fastest answer, but this is what I have done for the last 4 months (more??);
Record the TDS of your source water before water change.
Record the TDS of your tank water before water change.
Record the TDS of your tank water say 2 hours after water change, but before you add ferts.
Record the TDS of your tank water the day after you add ferts.
Keep records over some time to see what info you can generate. 
The tough part, in my opinion, would be the source water (assuming it's TAP water) as it's TDS may change week to week. In my case, my source water is 72-75ppm TDS consistently (RO Water). In my tank the last run of numbers - source 74, before 112, after 90, with ferts 109. These numbers are pretty consistent over the last month. 
Now, your Sieryu stones "probably" add something. What I don't know... does the amount they add decrease over time? How much time have they been in the tank? Would it be possible to calculate how much they add? Again, may take time, but I bet you might be able to see a patter with your TDS testing. 
Also, I have not been able to detect a difference in my TDS readings when I clean my filter. I know it helps but I have not been able to quantify it yet.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Immortal1 said:


> Record the TDS of your source water before water change.
> Record the TDS of your tank water before water change.
> Record the TDS of your tank water say 2 hours after water change, but before you add ferts.
> Record the TDS of your tank water the day after you add ferts.


This might get a little tricky, because I use an auto doser and it goes off every day while I'm at work. Add to that, and I'm never sure if Micros or Macros are getting dosed that day (it doses Macros and Micros on alternating days, 7 days a week. This makes a 2 week cycle) Regardless, I can just do a daily log to see what happens each day, and see if I can nail it down to where the crazy increase is coming from. I do my best to keep a clean tank, and I do regular water changes, so it seems really high to me.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Yes, that does sound bit crazy. But, would be curious what your Tap / after water change numbers are. Then say a daily number thru the week. Do the daily numbers go up at a consistent rate? Or do they ramp up? Do you get a higher bump on Macro days...
In my case the overall TDS numbers went down with larger water changes. Option?


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

That's going to be the plan. I'll check TDS of tap, pre change tank, and post change tank tomorrow.


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## zivvel (Apr 17, 2013)

You can guesstimate the amount of CaCO3 leeched from your stones by measuring GH & KH (assuming you're not dosing any Mg or Ca or carbonates of course). Measure your tap, measure your tank pre-WC, maybe a couple hours post-WC. Take your pre-WC numbers and subtract the previous week's post-WC numbers, and all that is coming from your rocks. It might surprise you. I know it surprised me.

I don't add any carbonates to any of my tanks, but I cannot grow softer-water plants in the 20gal tank that has just 2 seiryu stones in it. Syn. Giant melts the fastest of all those I've tried.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

zivvel said:


> You can guesstimate the amount of CaCO3 leeched from your stones by measuring GH & KH (assuming you're not dosing any Mg or Ca or carbonates of course). Measure your tap, measure your tank pre-WC, maybe a couple hours post-WC. Take your pre-WC numbers and subtract the previous week's post-WC numbers, and all that is coming from your rocks. It might surprise you. I know it surprised me.
> 
> I don't add any carbonates to any of my tanks, but I cannot grow softer-water plants in the 20gal tank that has just 2 seiryu stones in it. Syn. Giant melts the fastest of all those I've tried.


 Wont this also include any dissolved waste? I know I'm repeating myself, but I try my best to keep a clean tank. That said, if I'm missing something in my maintenance, wouldn't that cause a rise as well? I only ask because I don't want to assume it's only from the rocks if some of it is coming from poor maintenance as well.


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## zivvel (Apr 17, 2013)

jellopuddinpop said:


> Wont this also include any dissolved waste? I know I'm repeating myself, but I try my best to keep a clean tank. That said, if I'm missing something in my maintenance, wouldn't that cause a rise as well? I only ask because I don't want to assume it's only from the rocks if some of it is coming from poor maintenance as well.


I don't believe fish waste is going to include much Ca/Mg/CO3 to contribute to GH/KH levels. GH essentially measures Mg+Ca, and KH measures carbonates. If you have a known quantity of Mg in your water, GH can tell you roughly how much Ca you have.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

zivvel said:


> I don't believe fish waste is going to include much Ca/Mg/CO3 to contribute to GH/KH levels. GH essentially measures Mg+Ca, and KH measures carbonates. If you have a known quantity of Mg in your water, GH can tell you roughly how much Ca you have.


No, I know the waste won't contain Ca/Mg, but it will be included in TDS, no? I know my rocks are leeching Ca, I just don't know if the TDS increase is all from that, or from decomposing organics as well. I believe dissolved organics will contribute to TDS.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

jellopuddinpop said:


> No, I know the waste won't contain Ca/Mg, but it will be included in TDS, no? I know my rocks are leeching Ca, I just don't know if the TDS increase is all from that, or from decomposing organics as well. I believe dissolved organics will contribute to TDS.


Yep all that stuff will be in TDS. BTW the Seiryu Stone will continue to leach as long as the rock is there, it doesn't slow down (well it might when the rock eventually dissolves over 100 years.) I have 18 pounds of it in probably 10 gallons of water and my KH will still go to 16 (tap 4) if I don't change water enough and my tank is 18 months old. For what it's worth, my highest TDS that I remember was around 250. I think my tap is 150ish. Right now I'm doing two WCs per week to keep KH down and it has the added benefit of keeping everything really clean.


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## zivvel (Apr 17, 2013)

jellopuddinpop said:


> No, I know the waste won't contain Ca/Mg, but it will be included in TDS, no? I know my rocks are leeching Ca, I just don't know if the TDS increase is all from that, or from decomposing organics as well. I believe dissolved organics will contribute to TDS.


Yes, all that is included in TDS. I'm saying to measure GH/KH in addition to TDS so you can calculate what portion of your TDS increase is due to the CaCO3 leeching from your stone. You can calculate Ca+Mg ppm from GH.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

zivvel said:


> Yes, all that is included in TDS. I'm saying to measure GH/KH in addition to TDS so you can calculate what portion of your TDS increase is due to the CaCO3 leeching from your stone. You can calculate Ca+Mg ppm from GH.


Ohh, thaaaaaat makes sense now. Not going to lie, I had no idea where you were coming from. I was genuinely thinking to myself "... T stands for TOTAL..."

I feel dumb now lol.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Quick post water change update:

Measured TDS from tap, pre-water-change tank, and post water change tank:

Pre: 362
Tap: 169
Post: 272 (this is after adding 7ppm Mg)

For this after change, I also did a good deep filter cleaning, replaced 250mL of Purigen, and added a huge bag of activated carbon. It's going to be interested to see the TDS day over day. I'll take some pictured tomorrow, but the only real change has been the Ludwigia looking both better and worse at the same time. The old leaves on the plants I topped look awful, but the new growth is less curled, and more red. 

I have a package of plants coming next week from @burr740, so that should be interesting. I picked up 7 new species. The goal is to see what "likes the soup I'm serving" lol @Greggz, I love it. I'll probably only end up with a couple new additions, but time will tell. My next update should have a week's findings from TDS readings and new pics with the new plants.


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## zivvel (Apr 17, 2013)

jellopuddinpop said:


> Quick post water change update:
> 
> Measured TDS from tap, pre-water-change tank, and post water change tank:
> 
> ...


I got a(nother) pakcage from @burr740 just yesterday myself. That's always a good day! Be patient anytime you are introducing a new species. It may spit out your soup at first, but sometimes plants will go through an adaptation period that could go even months before they figure out how to live in your tank. There are plenty of tales here of plants left for dead basically in the back of a tank that eventually thrived.


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## Savetheplants (May 24, 2016)

So I considered your comment about the Calcium Magnesium ratio and checked my water report. It has 22 ppm Calcium and 6 ppm Magnesium for a ratio of 3.67:1. I divided the 3.67 by 3 and multiplied that by 6 ppm Magnesium. The difference (and yes I know this is hard to follow) is 1.33 ppm Magnesium. I multiplied my 66 liters by 1.33 ppm Mg and divided by 20% Magnesium in MgSO4 and dosed my aquarium the resulting 439 mg MgSO4. Now my Calcium Magnesium ratio should be 3:1. I do think this addition is kind of necessary but not because of the ratio. Dr Barr says the ratio doesn't matter. But the plants do uptake a couple of mg/l Mg during the week. Maybe more depending on your plant mass. I know some of you swear by this ratio. Hope this post isn't heretical.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Hi Everyone,

FTS:








Pretty big update today. I've had a bunch of changes since my update...

I had a water test done on my well water, and found the following:










The extra Ca was expected, but it was lower than I thought it was going to be. With this info, I've changed up my dosing regimen to the following weekly amounts:

Weekly Targets (dose Macros / Micros 3x week):
NO3- 30ppm
PO4- 3ppm
K- 30ppm
Mg- 8ppm

Fe- .4ppm
Zn- .14ppm
B- .09ppm
Mn- .08ppm
Mo- .0035ppm
Cu- .002
Ni- .0009 (from tap) 

I've been dealing with some rather persistent GDA, so I decided to stuff the tank with a whole bunch of different stems. I don't know if it's going to have any effect, but I've been keeping a clean tank and my CO2 is good, so I figured this couldn't hurt. Plus, it made me feel better =). I got a pretty big plant package from @burr740, and got that planted today. You'll see the GDA in all of the following pictures. It doesn't seem like it's effecting the plants at all, but it definitely looks like crap on the rocks, and I'm cleaning the glass 2x weekly. I've read that Bristlenose Plecos can do a number on GDA, but I'm really hesitant to add livestock to fix the problem. Does anyone have any ideas on what I could try to get the GDA under control?

New plants:

*Ar Mini Variegated* 









*Bacopa Colorata 










Dwarf Lily*










*Penthorum Sedoides* 










*Staurogyne Spatulata* 










*Limnophila Hippuridoides* 










*Myriophyllum sp. Guyana*










Some mystery plant Burr included that I haven't identified yet. If anyone can help, that would be awesome =)


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

I know that plant 
Hygrophila odora is the name Joe gave me. Google images seems to confirm
https://www.plantedtank.net/attachments/20210204_160905-jpg.1025620/


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Immortal1 said:


> I know that plant
> Hygrophila odora is the name Joe gave me. Google images seems to confirm
> https://www.plantedtank.net/attachments/20210204_160905-jpg.1025620/


Thank you =)

Looks like it can be a challenging plant that likes soft water. We'll see if I can keep it alive in my liquid granite =).


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

You take better pics of my plants than I do! lol

Mystery plant is Hottonia palustris. It works better in the midground than in the back, put it in front of some of those dark rocks. (Nice guess Linn, it looks like young odora)

On your dosing, you dont have very much plant mass in the tank and the gda is probably coming from so much NO3. Personally Id dose weekly around 20 ppm NO3, 4-5 PO4, and 25-ish K. Add 5-10 ppm Mg with water changes. Micros look ok, Zn is a little rich, that usually works best around the same level with B and Mn.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

burr740 said:


> You take better pics of my plants than I do! lol
> 
> Mystery plant is Hottonia palustris. It works better in the midground than in the back, put it in front of some of those dark rocks. (Nice guess Linn, it looks like young odora)
> 
> On your dosing, you dont have very much plant mass in the tank and the gda is probably coming from so much NO3. Personally Id dose weekly around 20 ppm NO3, 4-5 PO4, and 25-ish K. Add 5-10 ppm Mg with water changes. Micros look ok, Zn is a little rich, that usually works best around the same level with B and Mn.


The lack of plant mass is the reason I just bought a whole bunch of stems. Im trying to increase the plant mass to try to help the GDA. It's one of the weird algae where nobody can agree where it comes from. Everywhere you read, you see something some different cause.

The only thing I can guarantee is to try to keep the tank clean, keep the CO2 up, keep my dosing on track, and keep up with my water changes. The last thing I can try is to increase my plant mass =).


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

burr740 said:


> You take better pics of my plants than I do! lol
> 
> Mystery plant is Hottonia palustris. It works better in the midground than in the back, put it in front of some of those dark rocks. (Nice guess Linn, it looks like young odora)
> 
> On your dosing, you dont have very much plant mass in the tank and the gda is probably coming from so much NO3. Personally Id dose weekly around 20 ppm NO3, 4-5 PO4, and 25-ish K. Add 5-10 ppm Mg with water changes. Micros look ok, Zn is a little rich, that usually works best around the same level with B and Mn.


LOL, I do try


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

jellopuddinpop said:


> The lack of plant mass is the reason I just bought a whole bunch of stems. Im trying to increase the plant mass to try to help the GDA. It's one of the weird algae where nobody can agree where it comes from. Everywhere you read, you see something some different cause.
> 
> The only thing I can guarantee is to try to keep the tank clean, keep the CO2 up, keep my dosing on track, and keep up with my water changes. The last thing I can try is to increase my plant mass =).


Whats causing yours is no big mystery - high ferts and high light without many plants will do it every time. The good news is its mainly on the hardscape, which means the plants are happy. So youre on the right track, just keep doing all those boring basics and let the plants grow in more.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Hi Everyone,

It’s been a few weeks, so it’s time for an update.

FTS:










In my last update, I was struggling with a rather persistent case of GDA. In response, I changed my dosing slightly, and stuffed 7 new species of plants in from @burr740. It looks like the changes I made have had an effect. Just looking at the FTS from three weeks ago, and the one from today, you can see a dramatic reduction in GDA on the rocks.



















Now, I decided to break almost every rule, by changing things once again. By complete accident, I had noticed that I really liked the color of my lights when I was only using 1 of the 2 channels. The blue-biased channel seemed to make everything move vivid, less washed out. I borrowed a buddy’s PAR meter, and re-adjusted my lights to utilize only 1 channel. It’s now at about 70 PAR at the substrate, with only 1 channel. In response to a thought in a different thread from @Greggz, I also checked the PAR higher up in the water column, where the Ludwigia s. Super Red is, and it’s at around 180. My lack of red coloration is certainly not because of not enough light =)

Here are the individual plants again, and their current state. Ignore all of the bubbles; these were taken immediately after a water change. No, my plants don’t pearl this crazy =)

HC 'Cuba'
This is still a slow grower for me. It's spreading out, and the Corys aren't ripping it up (yet), so patience will be key!!








Mini Myrio:
This one looks like it’s doing pretty good. It appears to have made the transition well from Burr’s magic tonic water to my swamp.









Ludwigia sp. Super Red
The color looks much better on this plant, but the new leaves are still a little twisted. In addition, whenever I trim this plant, any leaves that are left behind start to whither and fall off. I’ve felt them with my fingers, and they don’t feel like they’re melting. The new growth after trimming comes in just fine, but the original stem looks like garbage. If I can’t figure this out, then it’s either going to be removed, or it’s going to move t5o a different place where the lower leaves can be better hidden.









Staurogyne Spatulata
This is one of a few plants that don’t seem to be handling the transition from Burr’s tank to mine. The new leaves look pretty healthy, but the ones that were transplanted are struggling. I’m planning on waiting this out, and topping them when there’s enough new growth to plant.









Hottonia Palustris
This one is growing pretty quickly, but again, the original leaves aren’t looking too hot. My plan is to keep trimming and replanting to make this a little more dense.









DHG
I hate Cory Cats… I truly do. I’m planning on setting up a bottle trap and removing them if possible. I can’t seem to keep this planted for the life of me.









Eleocharis Vivipara
This thing is just wild. I trim a softball sized ball of this grass out every week. Unfortunately, it doesn’t spread by runners at all, and instead, it just keeps throwing plantlets off the ends of the leaves. This mass of plant just keeps getting bigger lol. This position in the tank is going to eventually be home to Eleocharis Montevidensis, but I just need to wait to find a good quantity in stock somewhere.









To be continued.....


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

......Continued


Alternanthera Reineckii Mini Veriegated
This hasn’t seem much change from when I planted it. It hasn’t grown too much, but it looks like it’s staying relatively algae free.









Penthorum Sediodes
The lower leaves on this one look to be struggling a bit with the transition, but not as bad as the Staurogyne. I plan on pulling and topping this one once it gets a little taller as well.










*Limnophila hippuridoides*
Just like the others, the original plant looks to be struggling a bit to transition, but the new growth looks great. I might be swapping this one with the Ludwigia.









Bacopa Colorata
This plant has just taken off. Growth looks very healthy, and very fast. I’m not seeing the coloration at all, so that’s something I’m going to have to work on in the future.

**No good pic here. Took it in portrait mode like an idiot, and now it's huge*

Dwarf Lily
This one is really confusing me. Almost all of the original leaves are melting hard, but it’s throwing out new leaves really quickly. I’m going to just leave this one alone and see where it goes. It’s too early to tell if this one’s going to make it.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Nice update.

I would not worry too much about the old growth on some of those plants. When plants transition from one tank to another it's very common. Sometimes the new growth will even be a different shape/size/color. I've learned not to give up too soon. Sometimes takes a while for the plant to adjust and get into a steady rhythm again. 

Like you said, I'd let them grow themselves out of it. You've got a nice selection there, and that tank will start filling up pretty quickly once those really get going.

Looking forward to seeing where this goes from here.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Looking good. 

Are those Nerites all dead or were they old shells you threw in the tank?

Happen to know the spectrum your blue LED operates within?


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

ReeferRusso said:


> Looking good.
> 
> Are those Nerites all dead or were they old shells you threw in the tank?
> 
> Happen to know the spectrum your blue LED operates within?


Unfortunately, they're dead and I'm lazy. The amano shrimp and cory cats clean 'em up really good before I even get a chance to get them out, but I have to get the shells out. I think they're dying from too much CO2.

As far as the spectrum, @jeffkrol ran it through a calculator in this thread here:









SBReef Fresh Water LED 165 watt PAR Data


Got my Seneye Reef Monitor today, recorded every combination of settings I can think off in increments of 10%. Recorded PAR, Lux, Kelvin, and PUR Product: https://sbreeflights.com/sbox-fw-plant-lights/21-basic-fresh-water-plant-led-light.html PAR Data...




www.plantedtank.net





It's definitely very blue, but the mad scientist says it's hitting all the needed points, so I'm taking his word for it =)


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## Savetheplants (May 24, 2016)

How are things going with changing to RO water @jellopuddinpop? Did you make the switch? Are the 180 pounds of Seiryu stone in 125 gallons of RO water causing dramatic GH swings? Does having all that Seiryu stone mean you don't have to add bicarbonate or do you just add less of it? Does adding bicarbonate slow down the water hardening effect of the Seiryu stone? Does the Seiryu stone badly affect your CO2 injection?

I've also been working on switching to RO water to reduce 500+ ppm tds. I'm thinking about putting small Seiryu stones in my hood sump to see how they affect GH and KH. I'm going to change my water with 4 dGH/2 dKH water. The Calcium Magnesium ratio of the water will be 2.5 to 1 starting out. I'm hoping the Seiryu stone will add more Calcium and some buffering.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

@Savetheplants So, I haven't switched to RO water yet, but I do plan on it. It's going to have to wait until this part of the basement gets finished off and I have a wall to work with. I've been measuring the TDS increase during the week, and it seems to go up by about 60. Of that, it's about 5ppm Ca and 2dKh (not nearly as bad as I thought it was going to be.) I'll definitely updating this journal when I make the switch.

The Sieryu Stone doesn't impact the CO2 injection at all. The pH is much higher than it would be otherwise, but 30ppm is 30ppm.

As far as adding Sieryu stone to supplement Ca, I don't think it's a great idea. It will be so unpredictable as to not be worth it. You can just as easily use sea shells, or just dose Ca like you would with RO water.


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## Savetheplants (May 24, 2016)

Thanks for reporting your observations. If 180 pounds of Seiryu stone only adds 5 ppm Calcium then my pound of stone in the sump isn't going to do anything at all. I was hoping to be able to use less bicarbonate and maybe cut out the Sodium Bicarbonate altogether. I tried dissolving a small amount of chalk dust but that didn't work. It turns out the buffering of CaCO3 happens as it dissolves. It doesn't remain in the water as buffering capacity. I didn't know that. Now I'm thinking about using the Seiryu in the sump. Sounds like I won't have enough stones though. Will try and probably fail.


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## zivvel (Apr 17, 2013)

Savetheplants said:


> If 180 pounds of Seiryu stone only adds 5 ppm Calcium then my pound of stone in the sump isn't going to do anything at all. I was hoping to be able to use less bicarbonate and maybe cut out the Sodium Bicarbonate altogether. I tried dissolving a small amount of chalk dust but that didn't work. It turns out the buffering of CaCO3 happens as it dissolves. It doesn't remain in the water as buffering capacity. I didn't know that. Now I'm thinking about using the Seiryu in the sump. Sounds like I won't have enough stones though. Will try and probably fail.


You may be surprised. I don't have a whole lot of Seiryu in my 20 Long, but it does leech Ca & KH. The water change water pH / alkalinity may affect how much leeching / buffering takes place.

But IMO the real question is, why do you feel you need to increase KH? Many aquarists run 0 KH, and the plants love it. And most livestock seems to be fine with it.


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## Savetheplants (May 24, 2016)

zivvel said:


> You may be surprised. I don't have a whole lot of Seiryu in my 20 Long, but it does leech Ca & KH. The water change water pH / alkalinity may affect how much leeching / buffering takes place.
> 
> But IMO the real question is, why do you feel you need to increase KH? Many aquarists run 0 KH, and the plants love it. And most livestock seems to be fine with it.


I just started checking my tds for the first time a few weeks ago. It was 590 ppm even though I top off with RO water. I wasn't doing anything to adjust my KH before that. I was just using tap water and thought everything was alright because I wasn't checking tds and the GH was good. I'm actually trying to lower KH. I only added 2 dKH KHCO3 today at water change. That's lower than what is in the tap water. I don't have any Seiryu yet. My idea is to use 4 dGH/2 dKH water with a little Seiryu for stability. That's the concept anyway.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

It's been a while since I updated this journal, and quite a bit has changed (and not all for the better).

A few small hardware changes... I decided I really didn't like the craftsmanship on the custom Lily pipe I had made, so I'm splitting my FX6 return to one Lily Pipe and one Violet Pipe. I'm getting both the surface agitation and the water flow at the bottom of the tank that I need. Forgive the ghetto rig to keep the Lily Pipe where I want it =)










I was also struggling to get the suction cups on my lily pipes to stay suctioned to the window film, so I got these cable ties. They're really working great to hold the pipes where I want them.










On to the more serious changes.

I was still struggling with GDA, and decided to try some floating plants. It decimated the GDA, but completely soaked all of the Nitrates and Phosphates that I was dosing. Before I knew it, they had completely destroyed most of the stem plants in the tank. On the bright side, the HC Cuba, Nana Petite, and AR Variegated are all looking pretty good. Most of the rest are struggling pretty hard. I'm trying my best now to use the floaters to control organic compounds while dosing higher and higher macros to feed the stems. This may be a giant waste of time, but if it gets too rough, I can always just take out the floaters. Here is a pic after culling most of it out. I can remove a sandwich baggie a week, and this is what's left behind.










Here are the pics of the HC Cuba, Nana Petite, and AR Variegated. You can see the real damage on the lower leaves of the AR from sapping them of nutrients




























For my next big update, I'l going to be pulling all of the stems and DHG, redoing the sand in between the rocks and slope to the back, and replanting an absolute ton of stems. I'll also be taking the floaters out at the same time, so the goal is going to be to get enough plant mass to replicate the benefits of the floaters without starving the plants. This should be happening the week of 6/7, so there should be new pics that Thursday.

After that, it's the patient wait until I can make the switch to RO water.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Immortal1 said:


> Interesting discussion on one of the Face Book groups..
> Xiaozhuang Wong
> If GSA or GDA is a persistent issue for many of you guys, its because you are locked into the thinking that you need to heavily saturate your water column with X ppm NO3/PO4. If you bother enriching your substrate a little, you can go much lighter with water column macros - get much cleaner growth. This tank has less than 5ppm NO3 in water column - with hardly detectable levels of PO4. Do you see GSA on any old leaves ? Don't get pigeon holed into thinking that GSA is always a lack of PO4 or that more will always give you better plant forms or color. *If you think that algae on old leaves is normal or that wiping your glass every week due to dust algae is normal, then you may want to rethink your entire approach to planting tank keeping - because it certainly does not have to be that way.*


I wish I knew how to escape!

I have been using auto dosing and frequent testing, keeping my NO3 < 5ppm and PO4 < .5ppm (according to api tests..) Still have algae on glass and old leaves. Everything is growing well and pearling, I just haven't been able to kick this algae, even with low dosing.

Ive been upping the CO2, 1.5 ph drop, fish are uncomfortable in the morning, yet still have algae.

Is it organic waste? Do I need to clean my canister filters every week? That is just too much work.

Is it lack of filtration? Or do I need to do an H202 treatment every two weeks?

Or maybe cheat with a glut drip?


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## mourip (Mar 15, 2020)

In reading through this thread I see feeding only mentioned briefly. My algae issues dropped off significantly when I cut back my feeding schedule to M/W/F ...and some occasional snacks. Critters are all well, active and the shrimp are way proliferating. The other helper is more plants and adding some immersed plants like anthurium or some floaters. 

Also I know that the Iwagumi or Zen look has a lot of visual appeal but it seems as if those who attempt it tend to post more about algae, or at least take much longer to get to balanced. I have noted that successful Zen tanks usually have few fish and/or only very small fish. Here again it is about balance: fish/plants

Relentlessly pulling out dead critters ASAP is a very good idea! They may eventually be eaten but not before the damage is done through decomposition which will challenge your biofilter.

Sorry if I am preaching to the choir here!


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

mourip said:


> In reading through this thread I see feeding only mentioned briefly. My algae issues dropped off significantly when I cut back my feeding schedule to M/W/F ...and some occasional snacks. Critters are all well, active and the shrimp are way proliferating. The other helper is more plants and adding some immersed plants like anthurium or some floaters.
> 
> Also I know that the Iwagumi or Zen look has a lot of visual appeal but it seems as if those who attempt it tend to post more about algae, or at least take much longer to get to balanced. I have noted that successful Zen tanks usually have few fish and/or only very small fish. Here again it is about balance: fish/plants
> 
> ...


I completely agree, but I'm battling with the lesser of two evils. Most of the fish in this tank are juveniles, and are supposed to be fed up to 3x daily to grow to their full potential. I have an autofeeder that drops a small quantity of Bug Bites 2x daily, and then I feed frozen Bloodworms, Brine Shrimp, or Calanus every night. I'm 100% sure this has something to do with my algae problems, but I'm planning on continuing the balancing act for the foreseeable future.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

If there's a specific spot that excess food and waste ends up collecting maybe taking a turkey baster and removing it at the end of the day might help? I have to do this with my turtles and goldfish to keep from having to do giant water changes weekly. Probably not an option, but I figured I'd throw it out there. For some reason I'm not getting notified of postings to subscribed threads so pardon my late posting.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Plinkploop said:


> If there's a specific spot that excess food and waste ends up collecting maybe taking a turkey baster and removing it at the end of the day might help? I have to do this with my turtles and goldfish to keep from having to do giant water changes weekly. Probably not an option, but I figured I'd throw it out there. For some reason I'm not getting notified of postings to subscribed threads so pardon my late posting.


No worries.

I do a gravel vacuum every week, but I have a ton of turnover in this tank, and no one spot really gets any buildup. The GDA went away almost immediately after adding floaters, so I'm confident that having higher plant mass will fix it eventually. Once I have high enough plant mass, I plan on doing away with the floaters.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

Kinda figured as much but it wasn't mentioned and sometimes something as minor as that can help a ton. Can't wait to see your tank with even more gorgeous plants 😁👍


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Hi Everyone!!

Long time-no updates on this one, but I've been in a bit of a stasis for a while. My plants were doing very poorly, and I had tried almost everything. They just seemed like they were struggling to take in nutrients and grow, despite modifying my ferts over and over again. The only thing I could do to get any growth was to go very heavy on Macros, but that seemed to trigger green dust every time I tried it. In this thread and others, we came to the conclusion that my problem was rock hard water, combined with a significant amount of Sieryu Stone. By the end of the week, I was getting GH readings of 22 and KH readings of 18. The plants just didn't like it.

The solution was to make the switch to RO water, but I needed to do some more construction in the basement to have the wall space to make this happen. Thus, I was stuck in place for a while while basement plans got finished up. I've finally made all of these changes, and did a big re-planting of the tank. I hope you enjoy =).

*First things first, here's a full tank shot from yesterday*:









You'll notice from my previous posts that I finally managed to build a frame for the front. I built this from Red Oak, and it goes from the face of the wall right to the glass. The rim is completely hidden from view. Please ignore the other mess here, and There's still construction going on.










Here are all of the plants that are now in the tank:

*HC Cuba*:









This got a really close trim before the photos, but it actually grows really well. The far left side of the tank was a little bare because I have an incredible moss problem on that side of the tank (I had some weeping moss come in the last time I planted stuff, and it grew over everything. I just let it go because I knew this reboot was coming, and it was soaking up nutrients.

*Penthorum Sediodes*:









This one was already in the tank, but I trimed it and moved clippings to this spot.

*Barclaya Longifolia Red*:










It's a brand new bulb, but this plant will get big. I left it some space to grow.

*Homalomena Silver:








*

This plant seems to be pretty rare in the hobby, but it has this super unique silver hue to it. I have no idea how it's going to grow, but I saw some intense pearling last night, so we'll see. There's also some Hygrophilia Corymbosa "Compact" in front of this plant that is small and couldn't be captured in pictures.

Rotala Florida & Bacopa Salzmannii:









These were both grown emersed, so the shape and color isn't what they will look like when they transition.

*Eleocharis Montevidensis*:









This grass is awesome. It stays pretty vertical, and spreads nicely. I gave it a good trim so I could get in there to plant other things, but this will grow all the way to the surface.

*Limnophila Aromatica:







*

Also grown emersed, This will look completely different once it grows up.

Hygrophilia Pinnafitada:









This plant is from the tank before re-planting. It's CRAZY invasive, and needs to be kept in check. When I pulled it out to make trimmings and re-plant, I completely filled a plastic grocery bag. The whole right half of the tank was overgrown with this stuff, but like the moss, I left it alone. It was soaking up excess nutrients, and honestly, didn't look bad. It's going to need to be monitored and kept in check, or it will grow over everything.

*Crypt Wendtii Green*:









This is just a couple of TC Crypts to stick in this spot. This area of the tank doesn't get a ton of light, so I needed something that would grow well, even when shaded out by that big rock.

*Alternanthera Reineckii Variegated*:









This is from before the reboot, and honestly, it wasn't looking too hot. When I pulled it out I found a whole bunch of small babies growing from the mother plants, so I figured I would replant them and see what happens.

*Ludwigia Super Red*:










Another one that's grown emersed.

*Staurogyne Repens*:









I have this planted in between the rocks over the whole tank. I think it's going to be one of the most impactful plants to the whoile scape once it fills in.

*Dwarf Rainbow Sword*:









This plant is from before the reboot, and is super cool. It doesn't get much bigger than this, and the leaves have thesi awesome rainbow effect depending on which way you look at them.

Also not pictured here is a row of Pogostemon Erectus, located just to the right of the Giant Hairgrass along the back of the tank. It's from TC, and is really, really small right now. That one should grow big enough to provide a backdrop to the Ludwigia.

I'll end this post here, and the next one will be all of the changes behind the scenes =)


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Behind the Scenes:

*Panoramic View*:









Here's the full shot of my fishroom. I'm not going to go over all of the tank equipment in this post, but if you go back to the first post, you can see a majority of the equipment. this post will be only the things that have changed from the original setup.

*New Lights!!*









I decided I didn't like the SBreef lights that I had before, and wanted pure RGB lights to enhance color. I picked up 3x Chihiros RGB Vivid II. So far, they've been great.


*RO storage Tank * 









I change about 65 gallons of water a week, and am remineralizing RO water to Ca/Mg 24/8, KH 0. There's a float valve inside to shut off the water flow once it's full.

*RO Unit*:









Here's the RODI unit itself. I have it hard plumbed from the water connection under the nearby sink, and have the waste water run behind the tank to a bulkhead in the side of the sink. the product water goes to a diverter valve, so I can run the first gallon or two the product water to the sink as well.

*Booster Pump*:









This thing is the heart of the whole RODI system. This unit acts as a booster pump, automatic backflush (once per hour), and automatic shutoff once the float valve goes off

*Adjustable Pump*:









Not much to see in the pic, but the pump is located down in the storage tank. When mixing the Ca and Mg back into the water, I have it on full blast. When filling my tank, I have it on lower for control.

*Return water Diverter*









Here's the plumbing to divert water, changing the pump from a circulating pump to a fill pump. Water comes up the pipe on the edge of the tank, and dumps back into the center. Closing one valve and opening the other diverts water to that fill hose, attached to a PVC "hook" that hangs on the rim of the tank.

So... that's everything!!

Let me know if you have any questions about any of the products used here, and I'll share links. I'm super excited for this tank reboot, and will be sharing pics as things grow in.


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## rzn7z7 (Aug 17, 2013)

Good 'behind the scenes' pics and I'm sure the investment in RO will payoff

Does BRS sell that booster pump?...I've not seen it before

You may want to consider a water saver upgrade kit to double your output from 75gpd to 150gpd....less waste and more product water pays for itself

The tank looks great!


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Yes, I got it on BRS.

I've considered the water saver upgrade, but the eventual plan is to pump the wastewater to an outdoor rainwater collection tank for the garden. I'm not super concerned with the amount of wastewater.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

jellopuddinpop said:


> Behind the Scenes:
> 
> *Panoramic View*:
> 
> ...


What a big difference the RO is making for you!

What levels of gh and kh is your new water when going into the tank? And what are they before the water change? Curious as to how bad that seiyru stone is.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

minorhero said:


> What a big difference the RO is making for you!
> 
> What levels of gh and kh is your new water when going into the tank? And what are they before the water change? Curious as to how bad that seiyru stone is.


I'm remineralizing to a KH of 0 and a GH of about 5. The KH is about 4 by the end of the week.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Update 5/13/22

Just showing a quick update of where things are about 3 weeks after the reboot.

*Full Tank shot:*









I've had a few successes and a few failures, but I'm not sure the failures are all my fault. The Rotala Sunrise and Bacopa Salzmannii (both TC) didn't seem to adapt at all. they just slowly wilted away into nothing. I decided to purchase Rotala Blood Red SG and Bacopa Salzmannii SG from a different seller, and got trimmings instead. Those have been in a little over a week, and are looking much better. The most disappointing was a Pogostemon Erectus TC that was planted and just never took off. I haven't replaced that one yet, but am looking for cuttings to plant instead of TC. I'm thinking a lack of Nitrates is to blame here. I had increased my N dosing the week leading up to the replant, and had dosed about 14ppm the week before planting, and the week after. I measured Nitrates after 1 week just before a water change, and found nitrates <5ppm. I added an additional 10ppm Nitrate during the water change, and had NO3 10>20 at the end of the week. The following week, I added an additional 15ppm NO3 with my water change, and measured ~25ppm at the end of that week. I'm going to continue to dose an additional 15ppm NO3 at water change until my current Macros run out, then I'll change the recipe. In addition to the lack of Nitrate, all of these TC plants came in a little beat up, and were obviously in their culture a lot longer than they should have been. On to some individual plants:

*Penthorum Sediotes & Barclaya Longifolia Red*










These are both looking pretty good. The Barclaya is keeping it's color, but I'm getting some leaf "cupping" that I need to address. I think it's from a lack of Nitrates, so I'm hoping this new, richer fert regiment will help.

*Rotala Blood Red SG, Bacopa Salzmannii Purple SG, and Hygrophilia Compacta*










The Rotala and Bacopa have only been in a week, so it's really too early to tell how they're going to do. the new growth doesn't have the coloration that they had in their previous home, so I'm going to have to do some tweaking to get these where I want them to be. the Hygrophilia, on the other hand, is looking spectacular. This is an awesome mid-ground plant, and is growing very healthy. I think it's going to be a great plant to provide a transition to the background stems once everything grows in.

*Ludwigia Super Red:*









This one is growing in really well. the old, emersed growth is looking terrible, but that's to be expected. I'm waiting for it to get another couple of inches before pulling it all and replanting the new, healthy tops.

*Limnophilia Aromatica:*









This one is much the same as the Ludwigia. the new growth looks great, while the emersed growth is melting. Just like the Ludwigia, I'm waiting for this to get a couple more inches of growth before pulling and replanting. the biggest difference between the two is the Limnophilia is growing new shoots all over the place, from lower on the stems. I'm excited to see how this fills in once I pull all the old growth. I feel like it's going to bush out really nicely.

*Hygrophilia Pinnitifada:*









3 weeks after pulling just gobs of this stuff out, and I already had to trim it back again. It was just running over the Limnophilia, so it needed to be kept in check. I'm hoping once the Limnophilia fills out, that the Hygro will chill out a bit. If not, I'm going to need to find it a new home where it won't be so vigorous.

Staurogyne Repens:









This one looks like it's adapting slowly, but my experience tells me that the TC isn't going to grow much. Instead, it's been sending up new plantlets from it's base that will have different growth. I'm going to give this one another couple of weeks to root, then trim it back really hard. that should trigger it to send up new shoots all around the individual stems.

All in all, Id say I'm 50% happy with the way things are turning out. I still have a huge hole to fill between the Giant Hairgrass and the Limnophilia Aromatica (where the Pogo was supposed to be), but I'm not sure I want Pogo in that spot anymore. I feel like it's going to look too similar to the Limnophilia to have any good contrast. For that same reasoning, I don't want anything too grass like or it will just blend in with the giant hairgrass. Finally, I could put a sword of some kind in that spot, but that might get unruly and start overshadowing the Limno or Ludwigia. If anyone has a plnt suggestion for this spot, I would love ot hear it!!!


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Nice!

I've also had some strange stuff with TC plants. I remember buying AR Mini, Parva, Lagenandra meeboldi red and Eleocharis sp mini. Everything but the hairgrass took off. I can honestly say the Parva grew faster than the hairgrass. It didn't die it just didn't cover. I eventually took some submersed hairgrass from another source and it spread in no time. 

I'm no a big fan of TC plants. I know you might get a lot of plants, but at the end of the day they are emersed. The sterile thing means nothing to me and is somewhat fearmongering IMO.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Asteroid said:


> Nice!
> 
> I've also had some strange stuff with TC plants. I remember buying AR Mini, Parva, Lagenandra meeboldi red and Eleocharis sp mini. Everything but the hairgrass took off. I can honestly say the Parva grew faster than the hairgrass. It didn't die it just didn't cover. I eventually took some submersed hairgrass from another source and it spread in no time.
> 
> I'm no a big fan of TC plants. I know you might get a lot of plants, but at the end of the day they are emersed. The sterile thing means nothing to me and is somewhat fearmongering IMO.


That's kinda been my experience as well.

Do you have any suggestions for that big open place? Something that would contrast with the L. Aromatica, E. Montevidensis, and L. Super Red?


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

jellopuddinpop said:


> That's kinda been my experience as well.
> 
> Do you have any suggestions for that big open place? Something that would contrast with the L. Aromatica, E. Montevidensis, and L. Super Red?


The Pogo was a good choice based on color/leaf shape. I was going to say wallichii but probably too much color. There's also Rotala nanjenshan, but I've never grown it.


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## ddiomede (Feb 21, 2011)

I gotta say, I definitely misjudged the potential of a planted 125. My biggest concern was how to scape it but I think that concern was misplaced. Tank looks great!

My experience with tissue cultures is pretty limited, to two cups (H Pin and Crypt undulatus) and both did remarkably well, almost too well. But reading about your experiences with them is making me second guess it. Snails and other hitchhikers have always been my concern, but mostly snails. I can always buy assassins and any of the other hitchhikers will get picked off by fish, if there are any remaining after a dip and close examination. 

For the area you've circled, have you considered a tiger lotus? It would definitely stand out in that location.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

ddiomede said:


> I gotta say, I definitely misjudged the potential of a planted 125. My biggest concern was how to scape it but I think that concern was misplaced. Tank looks great!
> 
> My experience with tissue cultures is pretty limited, to two cups (H Pin and Crypt undulatus) and both did remarkably well, almost too well. But reading about your experiences with them is making me second guess it. Snails and other hitchhikers have always been my concern, but mostly snails. I can always buy assassins and any of the other hitchhikers will get picked off by fish, if there are any remaining after a dip and close examination.
> 
> For the area you've circled, have you considered a tiger lotus? It would definitely stand out in that location.


Tiger Lotus wouldn't be tall enough. I have at least 16" or so to fill that space.


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## ddiomede (Feb 21, 2011)

jellopuddinpop said:


> Tiger Lotus wouldn't be tall enough. I have at least 16" or so to fill that space.


Rotala Wallichi would look pretty good there too.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

ddiomede said:


> I gotta say, I definitely misjudged the potential of a planted 125. My biggest concern was how to scape it but I think that concern was misplaced. Tank looks great!


Don't be fooled, getting a reasonably attractive scape was difficult. Everything you put in the tank looks small, and it's very difficult to use the vertical space. Just as an example, see that large rock just left of center, the highest point in the tank? That rock is nearly the size of a basketball, and is propped up by 4 softball sized stones. It still only reaches a little over half the height of the tank.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Another possibility is Rotala sp green. They have narrower leaves than the RR. Sometimes they tend to cascade over though instead of growing straight up. Sometimes the scape calls for that effect sometimes it doesn't. I'm pretty sure I once saw a video of how to make it do either.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Aasteroid,


Asteroid said:


> Another possibility is Rotala sp green. They have narrower leaves than the RR. Sometimes they tend to cascade over though instead of growing straight up. Sometimes the scape calls for that effect sometimes it doesn't. I'm pretty sure I once saw a video of how to make it do either.


I actually just found cut Pogo Stellatus stems for sale, and will pick those up. The purple tips should be much higher than the L. Super Red, so I think it will work out.


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