# Swing in substrate popularity? and a terracing/circulation question



## edacsac (Nov 13, 2006)

Wow... Not even a couple of months ago I was researching substrate for a failed aquarium project, and now I'm trying again, only to find that aquasoil is now the best and flourite has fallen to the wayside - of course I have the flourite already. :icon_sad: 

This hobby is more fickle than any I have ever seen. :icon_eek: 

Anyway, the reason I am posting is that I found a thread that indirectly mentioned HC cannot be grown in flourite. Just looking for more opinions than just one. I do plan on seperating the flourite and using the smaller grain for the pickier plants.

Another thing I'm pondering is a terrace/slope like structure I'm going to build out of either mesh or that plastic hoby mesh. Whats going around in my head is an enclosed elevated area with substrate on top of it, leaving an open area underneath. The walls of the open area would be covered with some type of moss.

Would it be beneficial to have some kind of circulation going through this area? I know co2 has no business there, but what about intake/output of the canister filter underneath the elevation, or air from an air pump?

I'm sure there will be circulation under there on it's own, but while I'm still planning, I'd like to get some opinions.

Thanks!!


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Are you describing a "cave" formed in the side of an elevated area? If so, I don't think moss will grow there unless some light gets in there too. And, I would think water circulation would be very important, to flush out any dying critters, if nothing else. As far as substrate goes, ADA soil is a softer clay substrate, so it can be molded into steeper slopes than Flourite can, and still remain where you put it. People are reporting that it is grows plants a bit better than Flourite, having fertilizers included. And, HC, I'm sure has been grown in Flourite successfully, but planting it is harder because of the bigger grains. Just because a new substrate becomes the favorite of many doesn't mean the old substrate isn't as good as it always was. ADA soil is lighter per cubic inch, so you need to buy less of it for a given volume of substrate, so economic factors may favor it too. Personally, I still like my Soilmaster.


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## edacsac (Nov 13, 2006)

Thanks Hoppy!

My idea is not so much a cave where critters can get into, but just an enclosed, raised area where "viewer facing" walls would be covered with moss vertically I suppose. And it would support a terrace with substrate (and whatever plants), then vertical drops on two adjacent sides covered with moss - no substrate. The other two adjacent walls would be the tank glass. Like a moss covered sheer cliff. 

Just wondering if there would be a need to take advantage of the under terrace dead space, where I think the moss walls would allow flow. If I do something like this I'll be using an Eheim 2232, and I'm trying to picture the flow of things with co2 and all.


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## thatguy (Oct 11, 2005)

ADA AS has been out for a while now, its just that now that the early users already made the jump, more people are willing to try it after hearing so many positive things. 

ADA AS grows plants more than just "a bit better than Flourite", its far more superior and price wise its just as affordable.


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## edacsac (Nov 13, 2006)

So if you already have flourite and don't have ADA AS, you might as well just pack it up...


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## Justintoxicated (Oct 18, 2006)

I have Flourite in one tank, Eco in another and ADA Aquasoil Amazonia in my newest.

I think Eco looks the best, followed by ADA then flourite.
I think ADA works the best for growing with eco and flourite being fairly similar.
Flourite is the easiest to replant and gravel vaccume/move around for me. Gravel Vacume Eco and you suck up sand, gravel vac or move around ADA and you get cloudy water.

My plants are growing well in all 3 tanks, they just seem to grow faster in the aquasoil. IMO ADA is the most like soil, you can take a granual of it in your hand and smoosh it into dust. It also released alot of amonia when I put it in,(I used this to start cycling my tank) and apparently lowers PH. It is lighter weight and I'm afraid it will eventualy brake down...

Around me Eco is probably the most expensive, because ADA weighs less than Eco. It weighs less per volume so the bags of ADA are larger for the price.

I have ET for ground cover in my flourite tank, it grows pretty nice in there IMO, put some in my ADA tank as well, it seems to be growing a bit different but too soon to tell.


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## thatguy (Oct 11, 2005)

edacsac said:


> So if you already have flourite and don't have ADA AS, you might as well just pack it up...


You could.

Or just use flourite and work harder to make things grow and accept that some things wont grow well or as easily. 
Then when you want to try something new, try ADA AS and then see if its really better or easier. 

I had fluorite and grew lots of plants and did EI and all of that. Now I use ADA AS and the flourite sits in a bucket in the basement. Flourite does work and with EI I was successful with many plants. With ADA AS I can grow more plants with less work. That means I can spend more time enjoying my tanks and less time wondering do I have the right ppm of this or that and do I need to do a water change for the 3rd time this week.


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## edacsac (Nov 13, 2006)

Are you saying that EI isn't necessary with ADA AS? That would be a huge benefit!


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## Justintoxicated (Oct 18, 2006)

edacsac said:


> Are you saying that EI isn't necessary with ADA AS? That would be a huge benefit!


I would not go that far, it just has good stuff in the soil for plants that require a rich substrate.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Some people haven't liked that ADA AS affects the water chemistry. My impression is that it is more work when you first start a tank with it, but less urgent work later on. I think we all need to remember that people have very successful tanks with many different substrates. Much of the benefit of a particular substrate is in the user's perceptions, rather than in absolute better performance. Natural tanks, using soil as a substrate layer, give very good results for many people too. So, there is no "right substrate", just a number of choices. A Mercedes Benz automobile is "better" transportation than a Chrysler PT Cruiser, but I get where I am going and enjoy the trip with my PT Cruiser.


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## ianmoede (Oct 1, 2004)

Exactly hoppy. There are SO many variables in this hobby that very seldom is substrate your only issue. People love to find something to blame when the isht hits the fan (flourite anyone?) I've used both. And when i used flourite my tank sucked. But that was because i was using DIY CO2, crap PC lights, not enough stems....the list goes on.... My point being don't worry so much about substrate. Spend your time worrying about light and CO2


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## ianiwane (Sep 7, 2004)

But things plain grow better in AS. I am not saying that you can't grow things in flourite or eco-complete. When I had eco-complete I had to stay on top of my dosing or things would not grow. With AS and powersand I at most fertilize at water changes and even at that its just potassium most of the time. Substrate is one thing I would worry about. The hardest thing to change after the fact is your substrate. Substrate is not the only issue, but with all things equal which substrate grows plants the best. For me and a lot of others hands down its Aquasoil.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

My plants in Aqua Soil do much better algae wise with regular (albeit slightly lower) EI dosing. Also, I have plants that grow quite a bit better in Flourite too. I think Flourite is better for folks with very soft water. But my Flourite tank is more established, so it may be an unfair comp. When I build a 120 - 180 gallon someday, I'm pretty sure I'll use flourite. I can get higher CO2 levels that way. I just hope Seachem releases the new black flourite soon. So to sum it up, IMO, there's nothing wrong with Flourite at all, except its red color.


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## thatguy (Oct 11, 2005)

edacsac said:


> Are you saying that EI isn't necessary with ADA AS? That would be a huge benefit!



Yes I am. I have a tank with ADA AS, about 2 years old now. No dosing, no EI. Ive grown pounds (thats right, Pounds) of rare plants in it many times over. Toninas, erios, HC, pantanal. Currently I have a 2 inch thick HC mat in it. NO DOSING. Pressurized CO2 and 28 watt CF bulb on it. Low maintenance.


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## thatguy (Oct 11, 2005)

ianiwane said:


> But things plain grow better in AS. I am not saying that you can't grow things in flourite or eco-complete. When I had eco-complete I had to stay on top of my dosing or things would not grow. With AS and powersand I at most fertilize at water changes and even at that its just potassium most of the time. Substrate is one thing I would worry about. The hardest thing to change after the fact is your substrate. Substrate is not the only issue, but with all things equal which substrate grows plants the best. For me and a lot of others hands down its Aquasoil.


They wont drink the Koolaid man!
People should take a look at Ians tank in the picture forum. And not that he is telling you that he barely even doses and not all the rigid standard EI methods. The proof is in the pudding, look at the plants in his tank and then tell me that ADA AS still needs EI. Im growing HC with no dosing in a 2 year old ADA AS tank, no EI. Over and over again you hear people who have experience with ADA AS and other substrates say that hands down ADA AS is the best theyve used. It really is just that great of a substrate and like Ian said, its pretty hard to switch after the fact.


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## mrbelvedere (Nov 15, 2005)

thatguy said:


> Yes I am. I have a tank with ADA AS, about 2 years old now. No dosing, no EI. Ive grown pounds (thats right, Pounds) of rare plants in it many times over. Toninas, erios, HC, pantanal. Currently I have a 2 inch thick HC mat in it. NO DOSING. Pressurized CO2 and 28 watt CF bulb on it. Low maintenance.



When you say no dosing, do you really mean no dosing? No micros or macros whatsoever? I find that a little hard to believe.


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

I've used Flourite exclusively now for years and love the stuff, and since there is no scientific research to show the superiority of one product or the other, I take hearsay for what it is.


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## aquanut415 (Jan 21, 2006)

i have an ada tank with AS and PS setup for over a year now as well, i dose maybe 5ml micros once a month, and maybe a pump of brighy K once a month as well. when i first setup the tank, i was on full EI schedule, its just too much ferts in the water, and i was not getting the results i see now. I cut back the EI to practically 0, and things looked better. Now, even less dosing and its amazing, i see no need for further scientific research. Aquasoil is better, science or no.


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## ianiwane (Sep 7, 2004)

glass-gardens.com said:


> I've used Flourite exclusively now for years and love the stuff, and since there is no scientific research to show the superiority of one product or the other, I take hearsay for what it is.


Well, why don't you try it. Don't listen to us "hearsay". LOL. And what plants are you growing, I bet nothing difficult. Anything will grow easy plants. Try growing some of the stuff I am growing.


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## mrbelvedere (Nov 15, 2005)

aquanut415 said:


> i have an ada tank with AS and PS setup for over a year now as well, i dose maybe 5ml micros once a month, and maybe a pump of brighy K once a month as well. when i first setup the tank, i was on full EI schedule, its just too much ferts in the water, and i was not getting the results i see now. I cut back the EI to practically 0, and things looked better. Now, even less dosing and its amazing, i see no need for further scientific research. Aquasoil is better, science or no.


That's more believable than no dosing. However, won't it eventually "run out" of nutrients?


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## aquanut415 (Jan 21, 2006)

sure it will eventually run out (i guess), but at over 12months, im still running strong, even with a significantly reduced dosing schedule and reduced quantity of fert in total.

however, even with this simplified dosing schedule, its hands down better than any other substrate i have ever used. including, flourite, pure laterite, schultz aquatic plant soil, turface, onyx sand, eco-complete, dirt with homemade compost and worm castings, or even plain sand. 

its hard to understand why people are so opposed to trying it, simply cause there is no scientific data to back it.. 
where is the statistic analysis done on EI? or PMDD? They are trusted cause they work for so many people, not cause the statistics behind them are so promising, and so it goes with ADA stuff.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Well, *depending*............on your set up, lighting and fish load, dosing may not be needed.

I have no issues not dosing for some lower light tanks with a decent fish load that get fed routinely if you have a richer substrate.

Will adding some water column nutrient help?
Yes, they do. Anything that relieves limitation is a good idea, you can put nutrients in the plants themselves, the sediment, and/or the water column.

The reality is that we grow plants with all 3 locations and sources to varying degrees.

But we get folks that seem to want forget all that and insist their way is better, that it disproves another method's ability to grow plants.

I can promise you that any tank that anyone claims has no dosing also has fish source of waste and generally lower lighting.

While you can grow plants well that way, you can grow them faster with EI and ADA AS.

Faster growth rate= "better" growth.
The plant prefers it as expressed as a function of growth.

Now some folks seem to think a faster growth rates are somehow worst.
In terms of our work load etc, yes, but in terms of the plant's preference, no.

It's really simple, if you have non limiting nutrients in both the sediment and water column and start off with a healthy "fat" plant to begin with, plenty of CO2 and decent lighting, then this is going to yield the fastest growth rate.

It's common sense but hobbyists get confused and some clown or company will come along and claim algae is induced by high PO4 or high K+ will stunt plants/cause algae.

I have no issue with various methods, but when they start in on this topic, they will incur my full wrath.

I also have no issues with various methods, but when you suggest a plant prefers one thing over another, think about what is meant by preference and also all the other factors besides just the nutrients that you may have varied.

I see many folks think it's their high NO3 causing stunting, I come over and their CO2 is loused up. anothetg uy thinks it's their K+, they hardly have any plants, or they just fixed their CO2 problem or just started dosign right etc.

The fair way to gauge a substrate growth difference from another substrate is to have non limiting conditions in the plants and the water column.

If you do limit something, you need to account for it in terms of fish load sources much more then, or don't have any fish at all to do the test.

Testing limiting conditions is much more difficult and requires far more accurate test methods due to low resolution and procedures.

I thjink when folks see try and steer folks on the right path, they miss many of the major points about why a plant grows well.

There are also many different standards as to what is better growth and then there's the issuer as to why.
Folks over look many things in this hobby.
Some might be fine with a little algae, some freak out over that standard.
Some demand perfection, some are pretty loose with things.
So I'm not quite sure what many are seeing, but I do like to see folks' tank's in person. That's the best way and you see what is going on much better.

If you ask 5 folks what they saw in a bar fight, you will get 5 different stories.
But they may have siome common threads and from that, the cops might be able to piece together what really happened.

Many make poor assumptions and then conclusions.
Then someone esle comes along and does what is "seemingly the opposite".

Take non CO2 vs CO2 methods for example.
I can explain both and have shown most of the notions I had about them still stand, I've never met anyone else that can explain it and offer a decent hypothesis.

I'm still trying to disprove my self, but so far things pretty good there.

With the Flourite vs ADA, hey, it's a progression, it adds to what we had been doing, it does not imply Flourite is no good anymore and worthless, it's better than sand for folks.

Sand and soil works very well, I grow all my weeds at the lab in a mix of that and they grow very fast. So I may argue why do we need any designer substrates at all?

I think ADA As is a great product for aquarist, but I think using it does not discount EI, not water column dosing, fish waste included, and given it is another source of nutrients, sure, you can dose less to the water , it gives you and your routine more wiggle room, but if you want to stay on top of things, EI does indeed work very well, all the tanks I set up use this combo and folks have very awesome tanks as well as my own personal tanks.

As far as a real test, well, you should be able to see enough of a real significant difference if you are careful enough.

Heating cables I never did any real test on, but I'd used them a long time, tried them out in many practical cases, and still had never seen anything I could attribute to them, then there was no science to support their use either.

Subtle things are going to be very difficult to prove much on, even if they might be a real effect, but I stick to the main players, the things we can show that are effective.

ADA AS is effective near as I can tell and most folks that have used it agree. 
But I could argue as far as plant growth is concerned, sand and soil, also work just as well.

I have pots(3 for each species, 3x 3 plant species: 9 replicates) at the lab with ADA AS and they do the same with Hydrilla, Myriophyllum and Egeria. 3 common fast growing weeds. Not much is in the water column at all, tap with carbon for dechlorination and are dropped in at about 2 gal/hr. 

No fish.

Not a "real test", but enough to tell me there's not a huge difference and is a decent enough set up to tell if something is potentially there also. Each tank is about 400 gallons and monoculture. They are grow out tanks for the test I do for these weeds.

Flourite and SMS did poorly unless mixed with soil.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

ianiwane said:


> And what plants are you growing, I bet nothing difficult. Anything will grow easy plants. Try growing some of the stuff I am growing.


Sounds a little snooty to me.

FWIW, I have plants that do grow better and faster in flourite, than in AS. Same modified EI dosing schedule and same water change. Which plants? Rotala sp. mini and Cyperus helferi and Rotala walachii. I think you AS aficianados are on to a great product. There is no denying that. But it ain't the holy grail - in my opinion. And I believe everyone's water column is unique to some degree, so YMMV.


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## ianiwane (Sep 7, 2004)

Betowess said:


> Sounds a little snooty to me.
> 
> FWIW, I have plants that do grow better and faster in flourite, than in AS. Same modified EI dosing schedule and same water change. Which plants? Rotala sp. mini and Cyperus helferi and Rotala walachii. I think you AS aficianados are on to a great product. There is no denying that. But it ain't the holy grail - in my opinion. And I believe everyone's water column is unique to some degree, so YMMV.


Those are not difficult plants to grow. I am talking about tonina's (not currently growing any at the moment, but have in the past), eriocaulons, certain kinds of ludwigias. HC is one plant they grows and spreads very well in aquasoil. I have not had erios grow well in any of my previous tanks with out aquasoil even though I have a kH and gH of about 2 out of the tap. Which plants grow better for you in flourite.

Granted I was a little sarcastic, I was just trying to prove the point that it depends on what you are growing. Sure flourite or eco will work well for most plants, however what happens when you want to grow something that it doesn't work well for. Are you going to completely change your substrate out? Why not get aquasoil from the start, seeing that it is priced competively with fourite or eco complete. 

I have also seen you post that aquasoil would not be good for people with low kHs or gHs. I have a low kH and gH out of the tank, the aquasoil after a month or so does not drop the kH/gH past 2. I have no problem using aquasoil/power sand with soft water. I know with hard water the buffering capacity will diminish a lot faster though.

PS. Whenever I am talking about aquasoil I always mean aquasoil and powersand in combination. For me I have always gotten my best results when I have used both. For those that have used aquasoil, how many of you have even tried powersand?


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Ian, have you ever used Flourite? My HC was growing better in my flourite than in my Aquasoil (without PS). But my bulldozing clowns and corys are part of that equation. And everyone else says it grows better and faster in AS so I go with that one. But I can't crank my CO2 up in my Aqua Soil tank because it affects my Rainbows, so it's probably not a valid comparison anyways. Everyone's water/situation is different, which is what I was getting at. And I don't think Rotala walachii is that easy to grow. Also, my Crinum calemestratum grows better in the iron rich flourite.


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## thatguy (Oct 11, 2005)

mrbelvedere said:


> When you say no dosing, do you really mean no dosing? No micros or macros whatsoever? I find that a little hard to believe.


Yeah thats what I mean. I dose nothing, no EI, no Greg Watson ferts, nothing (ive used GW ferts with other soil in the past and they did fine, just more work). I change the water a every week or two, no particular schedule.


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## thatguy (Oct 11, 2005)

glass-gardens.com said:


> I've used Flourite exclusively now for years and love the stuff, and since there is no scientific research to show the superiority of one product or the other, I take hearsay for what it is.


So you have no experience with something, thus you dont want to use it? 

Hearsay is a rumor, like the misinformation you read online about ADA AS from people who dont use it. Experience and knowledge is shared by those who have firsthand information with something. Like those of us who used products like ADA and try and share their opinion on them, a far cry from hearsay.


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## mrbelvedere (Nov 15, 2005)

aquanut415 said:


> its hard to understand why people are so opposed to trying it, simply cause there is no scientific data to back it..


I feel the same way. I think some of the claims it makes are a smidge overrepresented, but I have faith that it is a great product. 

I've had good results with Fluorite, and similar with Onyx Sand. But, I'm positive Aquasoil will garner better ones.

Thatguy: Well, it does go against "conventional" wisdom, but I'm not arrogant enough to say your method is wrong, you've grown and sold a lot of rare difficult plants and I suppose that is the greatest proof of all. Just when you think you've got it all figured out, there's something new to learn.


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## thatguy (Oct 11, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> I can promise you that any tank that anyone claims has no dosing also has fish source of waste and generally lower lighting.
> 
> While you can grow plants well that way, you can grow them faster with EI and ADA AS.


NO dosing, NO fish. 28 watts CF over a 10 gallon. Pressure CO2
2 year old substrate, ADA AS and PS. HC mat 2 inches thick. I just have a few shrimp (10-15 cherries) in there who go days without food and when fed its just a pinch.

In my ada tanks, growth is great. In fact there were times in past with certain plants that grew too fast, I couldnt scape with them. The growth was just too much to maintain. Why would I want to dose that? What would EI get me other than more plant growth I didnt want? I dont see why one would want to even bother with the schedule and what not for something that was already working stellar alone as is, aka ADA AS AND PS. After a certain period of time, when the ferts run out I can see a use for modified ferts, but Im already a few years into ADA AS PS substrates and growth is still good so I dont dose EI in my other ADA AS PS tank either.


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## thatguy (Oct 11, 2005)

mrbelvedere said:


> I feel the same way. I think some of the claims it makes are a smidge overrepresented, but I have faith that it is a great product.
> 
> I've had good results with Fluorite, and similar with Onyx Sand. But, I'm positive Aquasoil will garner better ones.
> 
> Thatguy: Well, it does go against "conventional" wisdom, but I'm not arrogant enough to say your method is wrong, you've grown and sold a lot of rare difficult plants and I suppose that is the greatest proof of all. Just when you think you've got it all figured out, there's something new to learn.


Ive used fluorite myself with EI and it worked well for many plants. I couldn't get certain plants to grow well though, like HC. In the same tank I had fluorite in, I switched to ADA AS and PS. Same lights, same filter, heater, co2, water source, etc. HC and other rare plants with the ADA products alone grew much much better. 

As you've noted, Ive sold many rare plants and those are all grown in ADA AS PS. Those are just the tips of the iceburg. I have pulled hundreds of stems or rare plants out that I couldnt sell and either gave them away or had to trash (hate that).

Ive tried other substrates, as have others like Ian and Aquanut and those in sfbaaps who now use ADA substrates and I believe most if not all of us will say that it is the best substrate in our collective experiences. I know I see alot of second hand knowledge passed around online by people who dont use the products and we just want share our experiences to counter those rumors. To me the beauty of ADA substrates is that they really allow you to focus on the plants and the joy of the planted tank. It makes it easier to grow many plants and that the schedule of dosing can be reduced or forgone altogether and that time can be spent scaping and enjoying the tank.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Rather than this type of discussion, try showing it criticallyroud: 
You can seperate two types fo substrate in the same tank can't you?
Jeeze........

How about 
I know when I see something significant.
ADA AS does do it. Try the above test.
I'm not sure how simple it is for you folks to come up with some simple pilot test to see if there's much to it or not.

If you want something more than mere herersay, simply analyze the soils and see what is in themroud: 
Very simple test, take DI water, add 100mls in 5 grams of soil and let the sample sit for for 24, 48, and 96 hours. You can use a mild acid, say a weak solution of citric to mimic plant root H+ cations.
That will give a notion of extractable nutrients vs those that merely leach out. You'll need to mash the grains up in the ADA AS though since the grains still have nutrients available deep inside the large grain and these are not porous nor hard like the Flourite etc.

Still, it's not a tough test to do.
ADA AS is plenty rich enough for macros for low growth situations.

I can grow Tonia just dandy in Flourite, but it's easier to grow in the ADA AS provide the other parameters are similar.
I've spent more than enough time with both substrates to say this without speculating.

A split substrate tank does that pretty well.
It's still got some issues, but it's a decent test method. You can also do the same deal with lighting 1/2 the tank with one type or the other etc.
I also found that the Power sand stuff was not all that so many had it cracked up to be.

I'm more curious as to why and how things work and if other methods can be applied and are better/worse for a given situation.

As far as selling rare plants, I sold "rare" plants 15 years ago with plain sand and my tap water and fish load. The tap had good PO4 and great KH/GH. Fish added the N. TMG took care of the rest.

I have little issue growing plants fast in a number of conditions and methods.
You can use soil + sand as well, but flourite does not have any macro's to speak of. 

If you compare them, you need to add some ferts to make the comparison equal.

You can use the plant's themselves, but I already can easily predict the outcomes since Flourite has no macro's like N and P and ADA AS does.
I'm also not sure why dosing ferts like K+ vs K+ and NO3/PO4 is particularly "tough".

You will get more growth and better growth with traces/macro dosing, can you get away with less? Sure, reduce the lighting.

Why waste the lighting?
My points many of you are missing: there are other issues with the substrate test and methods to get around such heresay besides "trying it". Many just will never try it.

I suggest folks to try all sorts of test that are simjple to prove things to themselves, still, there's always folks that will never do it.

I know many of you have not tried soil based substrates either. 
You may want to given your glee for ADA AS.

Then as you say, "you will know".

Since soil substrates do not get changed for long peroids and have no dosing also.............

Look into things more.
See what is in them, what makes them work, or not, see if you can make some predictions and see the results.
Think about what makes a plant grow and why.

Then apply that to your notion you are trying to show and better understand.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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