# Has anybody had positive experiences with Amaco Modeling clay?



## Aqualady (Jan 14, 2013)

I just bought the Amoco Mexican Pottery Red clay block a few days ago and been asking the same thing....


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## Hardstuff (Oct 13, 2012)

I would wait a little & see what other people are saying. I am still getting some stem melt near the substrate many months later with my needle leaf accurata. They were growing well before the root tabs. 
But my Anubias took off. 
I have been doing water changes to suck out the remaining root tabs. I still find pockets I have missed . I cannot verify that the pottery clay is toxic. I do feel that there is a chemical compound in the clay that is toxic. I am going to call the company soon to find out for my self.


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## Aqualady (Jan 14, 2013)

Hardstuff said:


> I would wait a little & see what other people are saying. I am still getting some stem melt near the substrate many months later with my needle leaf accurata. They were growing well before the root tabs.
> But my Anubias took off.
> I have been doing water changes to suck out the remaining root tabs. I still find pockets I have missed . I cannot verify that the pottery clay is toxic. I do feel that there is a chemical compound in the clay that is toxic. I am going to call the company soon to find out for my self.


Yeah I been waiting...I still have it in its store bag with receipt if I need to return it


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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

I've made root tabs with the same clay and my stems are doing alright. No broken stems and the roots are very vigorous. This is in a low-tech tank as well. How many root tabs did you use?


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

I have used this exact brand of clay to make root tabs and never had any problems what so ever. If your roots are turning black you may want to make sure your soil isn't going anaerobic in those spots. Did you add any dry ferts to the clay when making root tabs? If you did you may have used too much and burned the roots. But as for the Amaco brand clay I have used it without problems as have many others.

Is this the same clay that you used?

https://www.google.com/shopping/pro....3&ei=qxbSUvXuBOO02gWVg4DoCQ&ved=0CK0BEKYrMAQ


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## Hardstuff (Oct 13, 2012)

I used 10 or 12 in (2- (10 gallon) CO2 injection tanks. They have different substrates & yet the same plant melts in certain areas only, but they are in areas I dosed the root tabs. 
Before the root tabs the needle leaf grew very well almost weed like in my first tank. I keep a close eye on CO2 since that plant does not like low levels. The leaves begin to twist when CO2 gets low but the stems never melted before the root tabs. 
The ferts in the tabs could be the main cause but I will never know. I used only EI rated ferts in the tabs but I have recently read some negative reports on the csm+b with too much Fe staying around too long being chelated & all. 
Just a thought I am stumped on the melting & fish scratching. The fish stopped scratching when I stopped csm+b dosing & removed the root tabs.


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## Aqualady (Jan 14, 2013)

ua hua said:


> I have used this exact brand of clay to make root tabs and never had any problems what so ever. If your roots are turning black you may want to make sure your soil isn't going anaerobic in those spots. Did you add any dry ferts to the clay when making root tabs? If you did you may have used too much and burned the roots. But as for the Amaco brand clay I have used it without problems as have many others.
> 
> Is this the same clay that you used?
> 
> https://www.google.com/shopping/pro....3&ei=qxbSUvXuBOO02gWVg4DoCQ&ved=0CK0BEKYrMAQ


 It is the one that I have...


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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

Hardstuff said:


> I used 10 or 12 in (2- (10 gallon) CO2 injection tanks. They have different substrates & yet the same plant melts in certain areas only, but they are in areas I dosed the root tabs.
> Before the root tabs the needle leaf grew very well almost weed like in my first tank. I keep a close eye on CO2 since that plant does not like low levels. The leaves begin to twist when CO2 gets low but the stems never melted before the root tabs.
> The ferts in the tabs could be the main cause but I will never know. I used only EI rated ferts in the tabs but I have recently read some negative reports on the csm+b with too much Fe staying around too long being chelated & all.
> Just a thought I am stumped on the melting & fish scratching. The fish stopped scratching when I stopped csm+b dosing & removed the root tabs.


How much CSM+B did you use in the root tabs? There's been talk about how overdosing CSM+B can cause certain metal toxicities.


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## Hardstuff (Oct 13, 2012)

I am not using dirt in the tanks in question. The clay you used is a different bran but probably is similar or identical, though just a guess. 
I used Amaco play in clay air dry modeling clay. It is a red clay & labeled non toxic! It is a Terra Cotta clay. 
You could be right about the ferts ( Ua Hua)! I mixed a ratio from a thread that I followed on Planted Tanks Form. But it is possible that one combination was too high & burned the stems & was not the clays fault but mine! 
As far as the substrate going anaerobic, its possible . I would go with the burn though since the plant grows well in other areas of the tank & has improved in the old root tab spots in some places after heavy vacuuming . 
I guess time will tell. If I can go in an vacuum in the so called bad spot some more & see if any root tab clay remains & in time the stems recover then I will have my answer. 
Not sure if the roots actually melted but the stems melt & turn black near the base & some times in the middle but never all the way near the top.


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## Hardstuff (Oct 13, 2012)

Monster fish : Well I do not remember. It was about 6-8 months ago , but I remember it being a lot! Yes that's what I have been hearing myself. My fish scratched a lot after doing the root tabs. Then the needle leafs started to become the worst plants in my tank. But like I said the Anubias grew like crazy! 02 blasted out of the leaves like I have never seen. 
Most of the plants seem to have responded very well except the needle leaf & then the fish were scratching all over the place. I wonder how many people would have medicated them??? I held off & started to suck out the root tabs & gradually the fish settled down but my stars of the tank are on the way out even months later!! 
I would put money on it that the problem was the csm+B!!! 
Any other ideas or could the clay still be suspect?


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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

Hardstuff said:


> Monster fish : Well I do not remember. It was about 6-8 months ago , but I remember it being a lot! Yes that's what I have been hearing myself. My fish scratched a lot after doing the root tabs. Then the needle leafs started to become the worst plants in my tank. But like I said the Anubias grew like crazy! 02 blasted out of the leaves like I have never seen.
> Most of the plants seem to have responded very well except the needle leaf & then the fish were scratching all over the place. I wonder how many people would have medicated them??? I held off & started to suck out the root tabs & gradually the fish settled down but my stars of the tank are on the way out even months later!!
> I would put money on it that the problem was the csm+B!!!
> Any other ideas or could the clay still be suspect?


The clay should be fine. I went overboard with the root tabs in my 29 and used close to 40 in the substrate. The plants are doing great and my fish are healthy. I think you used too much CSM+B. I only used a tablespoon with about 2.5lbs of clay and used 3 tablespoons each of the macros with my batch. I also added some dolomite, potash, and peat. I ended up with a little bit over 200 clay balls. The only problem I have with the clay is when I pull something up and the clay particles cause the water to get cloudy.


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## Hardstuff (Oct 13, 2012)

So Monster Fish would you say its good to go ahead & use the straight Amaco clay in my new 55 gallon dirt tank?? I will be remineralizing cheap home depot top soil & plan on using a clay 5 or 10% mixed after remineralizing the soil. Not sure about adding calcium or magnesium since my tap water is loaded with the stuff! My tap is liquid rock. Planning on running livebearers & no CO2. 
Sorry about not remembering the mixture to help others. I stopped using the csm+b all together about a month ago. I switched to Flourish for my traces but may give the Seachem trace a try soon.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

I don't know what to think about all this CSM+B toxicity talk that has been going around but myself along with many others have used CSM+B for years without any negative effects. I actually dose micros pretty heavy and have never seen any signs of toxicity. There is a reason that it's a very popular trace mix because it has worked for many people for a lot of years.


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## Hardstuff (Oct 13, 2012)

All I can say to that is: If you use it in your system & you do not have any problems then use it. But for me I used it for a while myself without problems & when it was added to the clay root tabs I started getting problems with the fish & stems melting that I did not have before. 
Maybe it was over dosed & metal toxicity developed because of the way & the amount being used? I did not have a problem dosing it fresh in the water but it does go moldy & many folks will back me up on that. It seems when it gets moldy it does not work well . When I mixed fresh batches I seemed to notice better responses from the plants as well. 
Again: if you do not care if your dosing moldy ferts than , why not. I do care & I did not enjoy remixing fresh batches. I know folks dose excel or what ever preservative of choice into it, or screen the stuff. If that works for you great. 
All I know is things are improving for me now since I have stopped using the stuff.


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

L. arcuata does not enjoy having dirty or nutrient saturated feet. That's what Ive experienced. It gets this black rot if you don't vacuum enough or have too much fertilizer.


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## Hardstuff (Oct 13, 2012)

Thanks Jeffww: Thats what I believe is happening but not enough vacuuming in this case but from excessive ferts at its feet causing burn. I can still grow the stuff well in both tanks at the moment if I stay away from where they are planted now because more vacuuming will be needed in that area to get the last of the root tabs out. 
In my other tank they are bouncing back now after months of vacuuming around the substrate. I noticed a lot of clay coming from the area in question from my last water change, so I know I have more work to do in that area. 
I guess its really not the clay causing this but I am still wondering if there is an antifungal compound at work thats in the clay that at least the need leaf does not like? I may never know unless I use just the clay in the substrate.
But if I had to choose one I would pick fert. toxicity leaning towards what Jeffww says as well as others.


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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

Hardstuff said:


> So Monster Fish would you say its good to go ahead & use the straight Amaco clay in my new 55 gallon dirt tank?? I will be remineralizing cheap home depot top soil & plan on using a clay 5 or 10% mixed after remineralizing the soil. Not sure about adding calcium or magnesium since my tap water is loaded with the stuff! My tap is liquid rock. Planning on running livebearers & no CO2.
> Sorry about not remembering the mixture to help others. I stopped using the csm+b all together about a month ago. I switched to Flourish for my traces but may give the Seachem trace a try soon.


Yeah, go for it. It's one of the key ingredients in MTS setups.



Jeffww said:


> L. arcuata does not enjoy having dirty or nutrient saturated feet. That's what Ive experienced. It gets this black rot if you don't vacuum enough or have too much fertilizer.


I'll have to disagree. Mine grew like a weed in a dirted tank injected with CO2 and dosed with the EI method. I had to hack it back every two to three days.



Hardstuff said:


> Thanks Jeffww: Thats what I believe is happening but not enough vacuuming in this case but from excessive ferts at its feet causing burn. I can still grow the stuff well in both tanks at the moment if I stay away from where they are planted now because more vacuuming will be needed in that area to get the last of the root tabs out.
> In my other tank they are bouncing back now after months of vacuuming around the substrate. I noticed a lot of clay coming from the area in question from my last water change, so I know I have more work to do in that area.
> I guess its really not the clay causing this but I am still wondering if there is an antifungal compound at work thats in the clay that at least the need leaf does not like? I may never know unless I use just the clay in the substrate.
> But if I had to choose one I would pick fert. toxicity leaning towards what Jeffww says as well as others.


I don't think the red clay you used is supposed to have antifungal compounds. If they did, they'd have to be listed on the box or MSDS.


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## Hardstuff (Oct 13, 2012)

Thanks for your comments Monster Fish, they are helpful. 
I have to agree with most of them , but you did not mention root tabs. Since you are running dirt I would assume you did not use them so that could explain the burn I experienced with the needle leaf, if thats what is actually happening in my case. 
Its very strange since I could do nothing wrong in growing them unless my CO2 droped too low then the leaves would twist, but I never experienced black stems before adding the root tabs so again it seems it comes back to the fertilizers in the root tabs. I am still having some issues in both tanks with that species but most others are growing really well. I guess they are very sensitive & need a decent nutrient rich substrate with not too much synthetic or inorganic ferts down in the substrate. 
The fish stopped scratching when I stopped dosing the csm+b & extensive substrate vacuuming. So again it comes back to the csm+b & in my opinion the chelated Fe is mostly to blame but it could be the other minerals in it as well. 
Now keep in mind before folks start attacking me is the fact that I used the csm+B in root tab form & dosed the water as well with EI so there could have been a build up.
I was wondering Monster Fish if you changed 50% every week or 2 since dosing EI for reset??? To me that would defeat the purpose of having a dirt tank. Meaning extra work. Not that I am against water changes.
Also while running CO2 would you not eat up your nutrient rich substrate even quicker using CO2?
Thanks again for your comments , I feel better about using the clay now but I still plan on calling the company to verify what others have said about the clay containing antfungal agents. I will post the results what they tell me.


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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

Responded to your PM.


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

I think dirty and dirted are different though. I had mine planted in ADA which is nutrient rich but if I let mulm build up the plant would suffer.


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## Hardstuff (Oct 13, 2012)

*Amoco clay does contain preservatives that could cause harm to fish & plants!*

Jeffww: I have read on the internet that needle leaf does not like the acidic water. That being said I am not an expert, however one reason I do not use Aqau soil is because it is acidic in nature, plus It will cause your ph to drop some. To me that is reason alone to stay away from it. It would make figuring out your ph out even more tricky. In theory plants that do not like low acidic waters or even acidic period would not like that substrate. Now I know it is popular for many but I do not intend to purchase the stuff ever. Its high price is reason alone for me to stay away from it. Not to mention the nutrients will get depleted after awhile. If you like it great, I know many do like it.
Regarding the( Amaco play in clay air dry modeling clay) I said I would post my results: The customer sales rep. said over the phone DO NOT USE THAT CLAY, it contains a preservative that she knew nothing about nor even could provide a name as well for reference for the use of planted tank substrates.
Now the rot that I am experiencing is more probably more related to ph issues verse antimicrobial agents but who knows! The fish scratching after using the root tabs could very well be the chemical used as the preservative.
I do hope this info helps others regarding the clay. Do not do what I did & assume that all red clay is equal!I plan on ordering pure red clay with zero additives soon from another company. I will post price & source when I get that info. I am sure many folks already have good clay sources as well feel free to let us know where you got your clay from. 
Thanks


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