# Cyanobacteria



## phanizzle (Jun 28, 2007)

im still getting cyano on my java moss. im not sure how to remove it. is there any ferts that i can use? or a way to cure it? i removed it and did a 30% wc and it was gone for awhile then it came back. any help? thanks


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## nycsicktank (Sep 15, 2007)

check Nitrates and Phosphates


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Remove the GBA.. DO a 3-4 day blackout to the tank... It will be gone.. After that, make sure to dose complete ferts and lower the lights maybe.


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## phanizzle (Jun 28, 2007)

what kind of ferts? i have some shrimps what ferts can i use that will not harm them? nitrate is 0 ppm.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

I don't think nitrates matter in this case as mine are the same while I had it and after erradication. I used Mardel Maracyn and followed the dosages (with the exception of dosing for 2 days extra). For the first time in probably a year it was totally eradicated. I had tried blackouts and just about every other option to no avail. I actually had a blackout of over 3 months at one point just to try to get rid of the stuff. It worked right up until I turned the lights back on and within 5 days it was back in full force. People on this board have been weary of the use of Erythromycin because they are concerned that it will affect the biological filter in their aquarium. The only thing that I noticed that was somewhat detrimental to my tank was that it killed off pretty much my entire population of malaysian trumpet snails (which isn't nessecarily a bad thing). My shrimp and fish suffered no ill effects.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

BiscuitSlayer said:


> I don't think nitrates matter in this case as mine are the same while I had it and after erradication...


I am glad that someone else confirmed what I also found when I had it and was forced to use Erythromycin to stop it from overtaking my tank.

I don't believe that BGA is a direct result of a cause and effect relationship where lack of nitrates or zero nitrates will be its cause in each and every case. I believe that it is caused by more than one thing and may result in different tanks for different reasons. In all cases, dose Erythromycin and forget about it. Yeah, I know doing that doesn't address the root cause, but I have yet to hear from one poster that had BGA return after treatment with Erythromycin. And I don't have time to hunt down the root cause, especially when everyone keeps saying that it is caused by lack of nitrates and I don't find that using a calibrated nitrate test kit
.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

Homer_Simpson said:


> And I don't have time to hunt down the root cause, especially when everyone keeps saying that it is caused by lack of nitrates and I don't find that using a calibrated nitrate test kit
> .


Homer,

Did you suffer any livestock losses due to the treatment?

Based on the info that I have read about this, blue green algae fixes its own nitrates meaning that it produces its own nitrates regarless of what the nitrates in the tank are. I might be wrong on this, but if I am right what difference would it make what the nitrates of the tank are if it can create and utilize its own?

As far as root causes go, I never had a problem with it until I switched substrates on my established tank. I went from normal gravel to eco complete and then the problem began.

From what I have seen, the blackouts work great for other types of algae. I, however, was not able to eliminate BGA with a blackout of any length of time. I would say that finding the root cause of any type of algae other than BGA is important, but since BGA isn't even a true algae why bother with trying to figure out how it happened.

I am just glad its gone.


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## phanizzle (Jun 28, 2007)

im still having problems so do i just leave it alone and continue with my 30% weekly WC? because ive done a blackout before and it just came back in about a week or two.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

How do you know its Cyanobacteria? 

Have you read the posts above?


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

BiscuitSlayer said:


> Homer,
> 
> Did you suffer any livestock losses due to the treatment?
> 
> ...


No fish losses what so ever and no changes in water parameters during and after treatment. Ammonia tested 0 and Nitrites tested 0. I did do the recommended water changes during treatment and I think that this is important.

As far as root causes:

It is said too much decaying matter so vacuum the substrate and increase water changes for a while. Tried that, it didn't work.

Lack of water flow and circulation. The tank has a UV sterilizer with a strong power head, a 200 aquaclear filter that provides more than sufficient agitation of anything for a 10 gallon, and an additional Hagen submersible filter for additional flow. This was in place when the BGA made its appearance. Mind you my floating plants(cardamine, egera densa grow like crazy), so perhaps their quick growth and quick choking out of the tank may have interfered with the water flow and circulation and created the dead spots that the BGA prefer. 

Lack of Nitrates or Zero Nitrates. Nitrates always tested 20-40 ppm via calibrated nitrate test kit, before, during and after the BGA made its appearance. So, I cannot see how lack of nitrates in this situation contributed to the problem.

Using blackouts to eliminate BGA: I never took that route as I did not want to kill off my madagascar lace plant. The last time I did this in another 10 gallon with a madagascar lace plant, the plant that was otherwise healthy before the blackout, died after the blackout. That is the problem with blackouts. If you have some plants that are highly sensitive and depend on a consistent supply of high light, a 3 day black out puts those plants at risk and there is no guarantee that they will rebound from a 3 day blackout and could even quickly rot and die after the blackout which could lead to more problems if you miss that.

Lol, I'm glad it is gone too


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

you guys are too much... This topic has been argued to death...

Erythromycin is not a long term solution... Blackouts aren't a long term solution either... It'll reduce the BGA for a time. 

Make sure to dose NO3, K, PO4, & micros & CO2 for your aquatic plants to thrive.. That's the only way to combat any algae... If you don't have plants, you have to do water changes every week and REDUCE your lights.

Shrimps are fine with ferts.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

mistergreen said:


> you guys are too much... This topic has been argued to death...
> 
> Erythromycin is not a long term solution... Blackouts aren't a long term solution either... It'll reduce the BGA for a time.
> 
> ...


There is nothing to argue.
There are many people who follow a EI dosing regime and dose other ferts, and test water parameters. Their levels are considered "ideal" by the golden standard and they still end up with BGA. Can you explain that because from what you are saying that should not happen and still does? Can you also explain why the BGA does not return after Erythromycin is used, considering that the EM does not address the "root" cause and as you state is not considered a long term solution? I believe is BGA is more adaptable than most people believe, that is why you cannot pinpoint one cause of it. The only thing that will permanently knock it out is Erythromcyin. So, you can either spend all your time continuing to play Aquatic Sherlock Holmes and try and determine its "root" cause (good luck), or just nuke it once and for all with EM, your choice.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

sorry, I meant, This topic has been discussed to death... not argue.

Well, I'd like to hear from anybody with healthy plants say they had a BGA outbreak..
You might get a little tiny BGA in a corner of a tank but that's just a natural occurrence.. No tank is algae free... My sig says it all.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

mistergreen said:


> sorry, I meant, This topic has been discussed to death... not argue.


It might have been talked to death, but ultimately I don't think it has been resolved. I dissagree about keeping the ferts at optimal levels has a positive effect on this stuff. My ferts, light, and CO2 were all within normal parameters both during the outbreak and after the EM treatment. I would agree with you that these are important factors when talking about normal algae, but we aren't talking about normal algae or really even algae at all. I don't know of any other type of algae that fixes its own nitrogen.

Bottom line for me is that EM HAS been a long term solution for this issue, and I think Homer and a number of other people on the boards can attest to the same thing. 

Im done beating the horse.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Homer_Simpson said:


> There is nothing to argue.
> There are many people who follow a EI dosing regime and dose other ferts, and test water parameters. Their levels are considered "ideal" by the golden standard and they still end up with BGA. Can you explain that because from what you are saying that should not happen and still does?


No one has ever stated, myself included thaqt there was only one cause, clearly, I do not have BGA but I can induce it to grow via low NO3's.

While you ruled out one cause assuming the NO3's are right in line and they have been at those levels for some time before/after the blackout, other things such as CO2, light, other nutrients , and then just the basic things such as cleaning canister filters more often, cleaning the sediment some, getting all the other dirt out, keeping up on water changes etc........these all can "cause algae".

Going long times between trimmings, etc, poor current etc etc..........there's a huge list.

If you are doing all that........and addressing each thing.........then I really do not see how one person can have BGA and have it come back again and again when it's been several years in several tanks with several tap water parameters and bioloads.

Bioloading can make a difference, but as long as you clean the tank more, most should be alright.

EM does cure BGA...it merely puts the root cause at bay longer than a blackout.

Also, as argued a dozen of times, not everyone lives in the USA or where you can easily get antibiotics........so other methods are needed.

I can and have induced BGA dozens of times now, by simply changing the NO3 levels. It suggest one cause. There maybe and likely are others.
Clogged filters sure seems to be another and high organic loading, mulm, overgrown tanks etc.

The time between when you see the algae and when you dose/measure the water also is not instanenous. Once an alga/BGA is induced from a spore state, it may take a few weeks to start, BBA is like this, I cannot induce it in one week, it takes longer than that with CO2.
Many have claimed similar things with respect to CO2 and BBA.......but to date, none have shown other inducible cause/s.



> Can you also explain why the BGA does not return after Erythromycin is used, considering that the EM does not address the "root" cause and as you state is not considered a long term solution?


Sure, it takes about 1 month for it to come back, many folks use EM and have it come back a few months later..........folks that address the nutrients and CO2 and keep tidy tanks? Does not matter which method used to kill the BGA.........however, it does not come back year after year. A spot here in there is one thing, you clean, you do a water change, you prune you dose etc and stay on top of things.

But BO's and EM treatments still never get at the root cause.
EM kills the spores, BO does not.
The spores will enter the tank via the air, your arm, another plant added, fish etc at some point. Then it can start growing again.
This can take a few weeks or a few months.
The time delay makes folks think it really cures it.

Try inducing BGA.
See if you can figure out what you did/do that induced it.

It's your question
I found the answer, at least one of them, to mine.
Go figure it out then and induce the BGA via the hypothesis you believe to be true. Try and prove your hypothesis wrong. 

I think it's likely something to do with clogged filters, lack of flow, build up of muck etc etc.



> I believe is BGA is more adaptable than most people believe, that is why you cannot pinpoint one cause of it.


Well, I can pinpoint one cause...........however, there maybe more than one cause.....assumming only one cause it a bad idea. The other issue is secondary effects.......like poor filter cleaning, poor current, CO2 declines, perhaps another nutrient that's limiting, indirect light from the sun etc.
There is no control here either.

I can produce a control tank that needed neither blackouts nor EM nor any of the algicides. Then I go and try and muck it up by inducing algae.
Then fix it and repeat. after a few runs, you get a pretty good feel for what is happening in the system.

But neglected tanks these are not.
I stay on top of things when I do this.
I have to.
So if you add some neglect or over looked things that we normally might be very guilty of....then.hard to pinpoint anything.........I certainly agree.

But you go down step by step and rule things out and do things that help the plants grow, and kill/remove the algae in the process, water changes, pruning, maybe some algae cannot be pruned away, so you try BO's EM, Excel etc to speed things up and reduce labor.



> The only thing that will permanently knock it out is Erythromcyin. So, you can either spend all your time continuing to play Aquatic Sherlock Holmes and try and determine its "root" cause (good luck), or just nuke it once and for all with EM, your choice.


and when it comes back........then what?
Plenty of folks have used EM and still have BGA come back............
I was able to induce it, but only after I realized a time delay of about 1 month or so vs the blackout.

Spores will come, you cannot stop them for algae.
the key is stopping the spores from growing to start with, not adding antibiotics, algicides and other poison's to the tank.

Lace plants seem to be easily shipped 3-4 days via mail, clearly pretty dark inside a box....they and any other plant or fish clearly can survive a 3 day blackout.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> as CO2..


Well, let's see 30 ppm c02 as measured with a drop checker with the c02 brew changed weekly.



plantbrain said:


> ..light..


Not sure what you mean - 30 watts total light - 3 watts/gallon on a 10 gallon doesn't seem excessive to me with 30 ppm c02



plantbrain said:


> ..other nutrients...


Perhaps, insufficent trace elements. No offense but I did dose your liquid version of EI at the time I had BGA and the BGA actually took a turn for the worse.



plantbrain said:


> .....and then just the basic things such as cleaning canister filters more often, cleaning the sediment some, getting all the other dirt out, keeping up on water changes etc........


Did that when you suggested it in a post before where this issue was raised, thoroughly vacuumed substrate, increased water changes to 2x/weekly, ensured thorough trimmings, thoroughly cleaned filter, etc., etc., No effect on the BGA, sorry to say.



plantbrain said:


> ....not adding antibiotics... other poison's...


That is highly debatable, even Diana Walstead, the Pioneer of the Natural Planted tank approves and endorses the use of EM to deal with BGA. 
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/45473-blue-green-algae.html

Interesting to note that a person who highly regards a natural planted tank would endorse the use of a so called poison. And while I respect you for all your contributions to the hobby, I equally respect Diana for all her contributions to the hobby, and when it comes to the issue of EM to treat BGA, I have no problems following Diana's lead. In fact, as far as poisons go, high nitrates over a prolonged period of time are probably more detrimental to fish and shrimp than EM. 
http://freshaquarium.about.com/od/watercare/a/nitrates.htm

As far as pinpointing the cause, extremely high nitrate and extremely high phosphate levels don't trigger any other types of algae, but when it comes to BGA, I have seen it trigger BGA again and again, when all other root causes are isolated and eliminated and in more than one tank. In other words, the *"redfield ratio" *is the best and most plausible explanation for the appearance of BGA in my tank(S).
http://www.xs4all.nl/~buddendo/aquarium/redfield_eng.htm

Based on the "redfield ratio" nitrates at 20 mg/l combined with phophates at 5 +mg/l is a ratio highly conducive to the formation of BGA. This was my ratio of nitrates to phophates and when the BGA made its appearance, so it would have been fruitless to add any more nitrates and phosphates at that time. That is why dosing with liquid EI at that time made the BGA even worse. 

This does not surprise me and appears to be supported by most research and literature out there support that BGA is caused by eutrophic conditions where phosphates and nitrates are extremely high. 
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/faq7171
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/233391
http://www.ecifm.rdg.ac.uk/blue_green_algae.htm
http://english.sepa.gov.cn/zwxx/hjyw/200706/t20070620_105522.htm

****If the redfield ratio startegy combined with your suggestions does not work in preventing BGA, I will without hesitation and remorse, dose with EM, each and everytime the BGA appears. Why, it just works and to quote TWood from another forum "Use the tools that work."


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

Well, I found a source of BGA that was introduced into my tank... Round 2! I have a store in my area that I have started buying plants from, and recently they had a piece of driftwood that had a really nice anubias already growing on it. Needless to say, I couldn't resist and I had to buy it. Within about a week and a half, there is BGA growing on the driftwood. The BGA was growing on it and nothing else in my tank (until I took it out and tried to clean it off). I have to say that my plants are doing better then they ever had done in the past and I am following the EI method with regards to ferts. Water clarity is fantastic, flow rate is incredible, and everything else seems to be in check. One thing that I am absolutely positive about is my nitrate levels. They have not even come close to bottoming out.

To be honnest, I think this is how my last bout with BGA started. I think I introduced something into the tank that facilitated its presence/growth.

Guess the horse isn't quite dead yet.


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