# SafeTSorb Experiments



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Glad to have some readers of this post.
Thank you for the likes on this posting.
SafeTSorb just requires a little patience.
More to follow as ferts reach required levels.


----------



## grizzly_a (Sep 9, 2014)

Great experiment and thanks for sharing. When I took the plunge, I read as much as I could from other members here and sifted the bag first, then soaked it for a month rinsing it daily and allowing it to absorb minerals and stabilize with my tap water before I added it to my tank. I have it in 2 tanks, and they've been up for over a year.


----------



## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

Am I the only one getting a bit confused? lol

So if I am reading it right, the STS was not pre-loaded/charged with ferts/minerals, AND the above water test results were all done with no dosed ferts (just plain 'ol tap water and STS)?

The only difference between test #1 and test #2, was that #1 was stirred up and showed 3 times the absorption/CEC rate, compared to #2 just being an undisturbed/not-stirred substrate?

If my understanding of the post is correct, I am surprised how GH, Ca, and TDS rose, I though STS was inert, and being high CEC, it should have adsorbed the Calcium cations. Also confused why Mg rose greatly in #1, while in #2 it slightly lowered from tap values.

I *must* be misreading the post, right???


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

WaterLife said:


> So if I am reading it right, the STS was not pre-loaded/charged with ferts/minerals, AND the above water test results were all done with no dosed ferts (just plain 'ol tap water and STS)?
> 
> The only difference between test #1 and test #2, was that #1 was stirred up and showed 3 times the absorption/CEC rate, compared to #2 just being an undisturbed/not-stirred substrate?


Test #1 showed my tap water alone, and then my tap water with.8lbs. of SafeTSorb added.
It was not a fair test and only lasted 6 hours in contact with SafeTSorb.

Test #2 began with tap water and 2" of STS after 24 hours contact time.
I am adding NPK @ this time and will try for a 48 hour test this evening.
The N & P are not absorbed by STS, I have tested this before.
I cannot speak to the potassium, I have no way to test.
This being said the ferts should only affect the TDS.

I pre-charged nothing, STS right out the bag this time.

Makes me think Flourite is STS. :laugh2:

Sometime ago I hi-jacked an old STS thread and posted a charging recipe.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/29-substrate/883065-safe-t-sorb-substrate.html


*The 48 Hour test* "other half of #2"
pH = 6.8
TDS = 186ppm
GH = 5
KH = 0.5
Ca = 12.5ppm
Mg = 14.15ppm(calculated value)
NO3 = 10-20ppm
PO4 = 1ppm

Forgot my macro bottle has MgSO4.7H2O included.
Primary STS uptake seems to be Calcium maybe some Mg.
I screwed up the Mg testing though unless I calc what I have put in.

I will report again maybe Sunday eve. 6 day test?
I like a KH of no lower than 1.
20ml sample just to get some blue color for API test.
20ml sample for Ca testing too.
Needed to make a cheat sheet for low ppm testing.

Forgot to mention water clarity, you'd never know substrate was just put in.
Extremely clear, turned filter on after the first 24 hours.
I'll need to grab a pic too.









Here is a pic, tank is quite clear, 72 hours now.

*72 Hour Test*
pH = 6.2
TDS = 202ppm
GH = 6
KH = 0.2
Ca = 12.5ppm
Mg = 18.51ppm(calculated value)
NO3 = 10-20ppm
PO4 = 1ppm

No more ferts @ present.
Just wanted to bring up NPK and micros to a level.
NO3 & PO4 stay in the water column.

Lots of controversy over STS.
Started this experiment to prove a point.
Provide facts for STS uptake without a pre-charge recipe.
Water clarity can be achieved very quickly, no special magic.

Later on in the weekend I am thinking of bringing the KH up.
Any suggestion how high I should target?


----------



## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Don't use NaHCO3.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> Don't use NaHCO3.


Hi Solcielo lawrencia,

Do you have a specific issue using NaHCO3 (aka Baking Soda) to raise dKH or is it just with tanks that use STS?


----------



## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Excess sodium is detrimental to plant growth.


----------



## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Did you test the tap water as it came out, or did you allow it enough time to off-gas first?


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Solcielo lawrencia,

I agree that "excessive" sodium can cause toxicity in some plant species (just as any chemical dosed to excess can cause issues) however I have never had an issue using NaHCO3 to raise my dKH and I have used a lot of it since the water out of my tap is typically 0.5 dKH and I try to maintain a 2.0 dKH in my tanks. Obviously with 50% water changes weekly there is little concern of a build-up of sodium.


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Later on in the weekend I am thinking of bringing the KH up.
> Any suggestion how high I should target?


Was looking for a target actually, not the compound.
Thinking of 2dKH, set up is just an experiment.
Extra plants are just tossed in as they are propagated.
No special flora or fauna requirements.




Solcielo lawrencia said:


> Don't use NaHCO3.


Use this in my pre-charging recipe, 1lb per 20lb of STS.
This batch was not pre-charged.




Nordic said:


> Did you test the tap water as it came out, or did you allow it enough time to off-gas first?


Original test of tap was air degassed for 30 minutes.


I began this thread since so much stench is usually emitted about STS.
Didn't realize the baking soda debate would appear.
I use it, my existing jungled out tanks have not complained.
Wanting to prove that it is an adequate substrate @ an economical price.

@Solcielo lawrencia your recommendation for increasing KH is?


*96 Hour Test*
pH = 5.9
TDS = 239ppm
GH = 8
KH = 0.2
Ca = 15ppm
Mg = 25.7ppm(calculated value)
NO3 = 20ppm
PO4 = 1ppm

No more ferts added.


----------



## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Use dolomite, eggshells, crushed coral underneath to help reduce the KH drop. Eggshells also contain CaPO4 so its a P source.


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

*144 Hour Test*
pH = 5.7
TDS = 260ppm
GH = 7
KH = <0.1 Could not measure in an 80ml sample(not possible)
Ca = 17.5ppm
Mg = 19.82ppm(calculated value)
NO3 = 20ppm
PO4 = 1ppm

No more ferts added.

For S&G I decided to check NH3 and NO2.
NO2 = 0ppm
NH3 = 1ppm ????? Where did this come from?

Maybe plants(snail eggs) some traveling snail death?
Small sponge and small pieces of lava rock were washed with H2O2 and then bleach.
Rinsed in hot water a day later and left to dry.
No matter, no livestock.

KH has hit the bottom.
In a 50ml sample 1 drop is about .1KH with a still visible color change with 1 drop.
In an 80ml sample 1 drop is about .0625KH I can no longer detect a blue color at all.

Will raise KH some this evening.


----------



## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Curious, how can GH=7 while Ca+Mg= 40?


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

GH and Ca test are on target.
Even calibrated Ca test since every drop = 2.5ppm with volume changes.

I have no real way to test for Mg.
This is it, ((17.86 x dGH) - (2.5 x Ca ppm)) / 4.1 = Mg ppm, calculated.

I chose to add CaCO3 to the 4 gallons of true water in the 5.5 gallon tank.
Adding 500mg should bring it near 2 dKH, how long will it last?
Actually about 1.85 dKH according to calculator.
Not being soluble all at once was rather cloudy, all cleared up now.
Though about Aragonite reef sand but opted for CaCO3.

Just tested @ 1.5 dKH, 3 drops 10ml sample.
pH moved up to 7.2 now, TDS @ 280

Everytime KH bottoms out I will use another 500ml of CaCO3.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Everytime KH bottoms out I will use another 500ml of CaCO3.


Hi Maryland Guppy,

That is pretty much how I did my 75 gallon with STS; daily readings and add more dKH booster until it finally held at a number.


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Usually I pre-charge this stuff.
2 lbs. of baking soda to every 40lb bag.
I let everything sit for 2 weeks and then rinse it plenty.

I'm sure when using this method it is overkill.
Bonus is more stable water from the start.

I will keep monitoring this tank for a while.
Maybe graph everything when done.


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Maryland Guppy said:


> *#2 of 5.5 gallon tank.*
> SateTSorb 8-16oz. cups
> 
> After tap water was added and 24 hours passed the following parameters were observed.
> ...


 Trickerie said, "The sts sucks carbonates out of the water like a vacuum. The carbonate absorption goes away after a little while, but it depends on how much you use. Personally, I use gh booster every water change.

This dose not appear to have happened in your tank. TDS is up 24ppm. CA is up 10ppm. Mg is down aprox 2ppm. 
Tap water 
pH = 6.1
TDS = 185ppm
GH = 8
KH = 1
Ca = 20ppm
Mg = 22.65ppm


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Maryland Guppy said:


> *96 Hour Test*
> pH = 5.9
> TDS = 239ppm
> GH = 8
> ...


Wow! The ph and Mg changed drastically.


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Hilde said:


> This dose not appear to have happened in your tank. TDS is up 24ppm. CA is up 10ppm. Mg is down aprox 2ppm.
> Tap water
> pH = 6.1
> TDS = 185ppm
> ...


This was the result of 3x rinsing and settling approximately 6 hours.
Not placed in the 5.5 gallon environment yet.

*Update:*
Added two more 500mg doses of CaCO3 to bring KH up to 2dKH both times.
Ca is now @ 25ppm and seems to be holding.
KH still dropping, moved to a 1 gm dose of NaHCO3 to raise to 2dKH

Also added 1 gram of crushed Aragonite right on substrate left side of tank.
It will take a month of Sundays for this stuff to dissolve.

In the end I will have a total of KH additives to maintain 2KH relative to a measured amount of STS.


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Maryland Guppy said:


> *Update:*
> Added two more 500mg doses of CaCO3 to bring KH up to 2dKH both times.
> Ca is now @ 25ppm and seems to be holding.
> KH still dropping, moved to a 1 gm dose of NaHCO3 to raise to 2dKH
> ...


I would like to see a pic of the tank.


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Looks no different than post #5 of this thread.
I can always grab another though.
Thoughts???


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Looks no different than post #5 of this thread.
> I can always grab another though.
> Thoughts???


Oh I missed seeing that pic for when I am logged in I can not see pictures just links.

How about adding Lime? Not the type at Lowes or HD. I only find it on Ebay.


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

I have food grade calcium hydroxide Ca(OH)2.
It will still just escalate the Ca content.
Seems like STS is now leaving the Ca behind and absorbing CO3.
Don't know if "Lime" would be a win?

New Pic of Experiment:








Plants OK.
Some val melt, some anacharis melt, sprite growing, temple with new leaves, crypts growing leaves.
Narrow leaf JF looks the same.

Needs some water due to evap and my testing, just a quart or 2.

Maybe test water again this evening since baking soda adjustment yesterday.


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Maryland Guppy said:


> I have food grade calcium hydroxide Ca(OH)2.


I have not heard of anybody else using that. Interesting!!


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Not many choices on evilbay, what are you buying?

CaCO3 calcium carbonate
CaO calcium oxide (non-hydrated)
CaOH2 calcium hydroxide (hydrated)

I do not know if CaO is available as a NSF food grade compound.
The others are.

Products like dolomite contain Mg and sometimes other elements.
They are not a pure lime product.


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Not many choices on evilbay, what are you buying?
> 
> CaCO3 calcium carbonate
> CaO calcium oxide (non-hydrated)
> CaOH2 calcium hydroxide (hydrated)


I have found 3 websites that I can buy ferts from. I have not seen those you listed.

My ferts are
Startup
Magesium sulfate (Epsom salts) 

Every other day
Cidex solution for Co2 additive (temporary)
Seltzer water to boost Co2 additive

Weekly
Seachem Equilibrium weekly(Bought years ago. Not replenishing)
Monopotassium phosphate 
Potassium nitrate (from HD Spectricide stump remover)

Monthly
Sodium bicarb (baking soda) 
Limestone powder


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Hilde said:


> How about adding Lime? Not the type at Lowes or HD. I only find it on Ebay.





Maryland Guppy said:


> Not many choices on evilbay, what are you buying?
> 
> CaCO3 calcium carbonate





Hilde said:


> I have found 3 websites that I can buy ferts from. I have not seen those you listed.
> 
> Limestone powder


If a close look is taken on the very small picture you posted.
:icon_idea will turn on.
I believe is says Calcium Carbonate. CaCO3 seems to be what you are using.
It is included in most fert calculators too.


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Maryland Guppy said:


> If a close look is taken on the very small picture you posted.
> :icon_idea will turn on.
> I believe is says Calcium Carbonate. CaCO3 seems to be what you are using.
> It is included in most fert calculators too.


Yes label says Limestone Calcium Carbonate ph stabilizer CaCo3. 

Oops!! That is actually calcium carbonate. I see you are already using that.


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Maybe a new thread regarding your fertilizer regime would be in order.
I do not wish to up my post count in this manner.


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Maybe a new thread regarding your fertilizer regime would be in order.
> I do not wish to up my post count in this manner.


That is okay. I just misunderstood your question for I have a sinus headache. Since reading your ferts I have changed my fert regiment which will save me money. I was going to buy CSM+B. I see now that Calcium hydroxide is all I need to add to what I have.


----------



## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Curious why the TDS rises?


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

16 days in, time flies.

pH=7.2
TDS=296
GH=8
KH=1.5
Ca=20ppm
NH3=1ppm
NO2=0ppm
NO3=10ppm
PO4=1ppm

Additives to date
1.5g of CaCO3
1.0g of NaHCO3
1.0g of Aragonite that I am sure has done nothing.

10 drops of CSM+B solution w/additional Fe added
1.5ml of PPS Pro macro solution w/MgSO4.
Fert requirement based on PO4 test.

NH3 level is still a mystery though.


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> Use dolomite, eggshells, crushed coral underneath to help reduce the KH drop. Eggshells also contain CaPO4 so its a P source.


I wonder what would happen if you used eggshell instead of Aragonite.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Maryland Guppy said:


> NH3 level is still a mystery though.


Hi Maryland Guppy,

Any decaying organics could be the source of your NH3.


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Two snails survived and plants as pictured are in the tank.
Some elodia had rotted, about 3 stems. The rest are fine.
Forgot a little val melt in the corner too.

Little sprigs of crypt are growing new leaves.
Ironically all crypts I have placed in SafeTSorb have not went through a meltdown.
Not just this tank but all tanks with STS.

All plants in here were just small cuttings from all other tanks.
Had to have something to test with.

Starting to see a little nitrite now. NH3 still about 1ppm.
NO3 was dosed to meet 10ppm.

I will post a water parameter update soon.
Reflecting on partial WC and dosing.


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

update?

Bump:


Maryland Guppy said:


> Ironically all crypts I have placed in SafeTSorb have not went through a meltdown.


I read that the plants melt when there is not enough Co2. Have you measured your Co2?


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

This is a low-tech tank for sure, no CO2 injection.
More of a test on SafeTSorb without pre-charging.

An update does not consist of much great info.
Every time KH drops I add enough CaCO3 & baking soda to reach 2 dKH.
4x since my last post I have raised KH to 2.

Very minimal fert solution additions, I keep PO4 @ 1ppm.

No plant death or meltdown.
Added 4 stems of rotala, who knows what kind, it is growing.

Due to the very low lighting there is almost no algae.
No initial diatom outbreak occurred.
Plants are growing but very slowly.
Key here is that all plants are healthy during experiment.

Very soon I will be breaking this small tank down.
I will re-disperse the plants among other tanks.

Conclusion of this test are as follows.
IMO it is worth the time to pre-charge the SafeTSorb and avoid KH constantly dropping.
Don't rinse this stuff much it breaks down and material loss occurs.
Rinse in small quantities and deal with cloudy water for a day or two.


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Maryland Guppy said:


> This is a low-tech tank for sure, no CO2 injection.
> More of a test on SafeTSorb without pre-charging.


Yeh, I know you are not injecting Co2. But every tank naturally has some Co2.


----------

