# What you should know about filters.



## Lyn (Jul 28, 2015)

Hi Larry:
Pardon my ignorance, but what is a trickle filter? Can you provide a link?
Thanks,
Lyn


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## CannaBrain (Oct 3, 2008)

I think you're a little mixed up. Heterotrophic bacteria do NOT develop in our aquariums or our filters. They do not survive. Ammonia is first converted into nitrites by nitrosomonas, then from nitrites into nitrates by nitrobacter. These are both autotrophic species that will colonize in our tanks on their own, or thru introduction from proper beneficial supplements, like tetra's safe start (which says on the package which strains of bacteria it includes), or Dr. Tim's. They work together, but independent of each other. 



Larry Whitaker said:


> You will NEVER get nitrosomonas to grow in a canister filter no matter how much it cost. Nitrosomonas requires a wet (but not submerged) environment to grow in.


Where do you get your information for this? Nitrosomonas, like nitrobacter, are aerobes. They require oxygen, which is still present in the water flowing over them in a canister. They will still colonize in your filter.



Larry Whitaker said:


> Why do the stores push EHEIM and Fluval canister filters?
> Because that's where the money is.
> There just isn't much money to be made from someone who uses a trickle filter system. A trickle filter has no moving parts, nothing to replace.
> Many people can even build them themselves.


There are MANY reasons one would choose a canister filter or an internal filter or this or that filter based on the user's needs. You're essentially saying in this post that the millions of us with canister filters are incapable of actually cycling our aquariums due to our filter choice, since to cycle an aquarium, both species must be present to convert ammonia AND nitrites, which is obviously untrue. If your tank is cycled, you've got nitrosomonas AND nitrobacter. 

The heterotrophic bb that you're describing would not develop in our aquariums in the first place. It is often sold at pet stores as fast acting ammonia/nitrite removers, but that's all they do. They quickly can oxidize ammonia and nitrite, but will not establish in your tank. They can even prolong cycles and cause mini cycles by stealing food away from our true bb. 

Also, while it's true that a single nitrosomonas cell can convert ammonia at about a million times faster rate, these cells are very VERY slow to colonize. e. coli can multiply 35 trillion times over in the time it takes for just one nitrosomonas cell to multiply once. This is why patience is such an important factor in aquarium-keeping and why new tank syndrome is such a hurdle for people. They want to have an instantly cycled tank, go to petsmart or petco and buy an "add fish instantly" supplement which contains heterotrophic garbage and, in fact, prolongs the cycle of their tank. 

So really, I seriously disagree with your statement. I do agree that we're trying to culture the right bacteria, but disagree that your filter is going to be the determinant factor of which develop. Trickle filters certainly provide lots of oxygen for our autotrophs to do work, but they REALLY provide an enormous amount of surface area on which bb will colonize, thus increasing greatly the volume or bioload of a system. HOWEVER, for those of us who are trying to reduce the amount of gas exchange, in particular to retain co2 in our systems, then canister filters and the like are perfect.

How about we ask the millions of eheim canister filter owners how terrible their filtration is in their tanks and how awful their cycles are. Or not since we already know the answer to that question. 

If you're keeping fish strictly, sure a trickle filter is an awesome way to go. But you can absolutely still maintain healthy levels of bb in a canister filter.

Here's link to a good resource on nitrifying bacteria. A good read.

http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html


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## Larry Whitaker (Aug 8, 2015)

I received most of my information from the Florida Institute of Technology where I earned my Bachelors degree in aquatics.
The rest I gathered over the last 30 years working as an Aquatics Consulting specialist. 

Heterotrophic bacteria lives everywhere. Even in treated drinking water.
There are even regulations on how much of the bacteria can be present in drinking water before it becomes a problem with the health department.
You couldn't get rid of it if you tried.
It is also the only bacteria that will nitrify ammonia in a submerged environment.

Nitrosomonas does not live in a submerged environment which is why trickle filters "trickle". Nitrosomonas is a chemoautotrophic bacteria and does not absorb oxygen in a submerged state..

Heterotrophic bacteria and nitrobacter are autotrophic. Not Nitrosomonas.

Nitrobacter does live in most environments and is not really the topic of the conversation since it can live in the substrate in our tanks.
We are talking about the first stage of the nitrogen cycle, the conversion of ammonia into nitrites.

I don't think I am the one that's messed up.

Here look it up your self.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrosomonas





CannaBrain said:


> I think you're a little mixed up. Heterotrophic bacteria do NOT develop in our aquariums or our filters. They do not survive. Ammonia is first converted into nitrites by nitrosomonas, then from nitrites into nitrates by nitrobacter. These are both autotrophic species that will colonize in our tanks on their own, or thru introduction from proper beneficial supplements, like tetra's safe start (which says on the package which strains of bacteria it includes), or Dr. Tim's. They work together, but independent of each other.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Larry Whitaker (Aug 8, 2015)

By the way, the people who wrote the material on this link of yours has half the education I do about water chemistry.
ttp://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html



CannaBrain said:


> I think you're a little mixed up. Heterotrophic bacteria do NOT develop in our aquariums or our filters. They do not survive. Ammonia is first converted into nitrites by nitrosomonas, then from nitrites into nitrates by nitrobacter. These are both autotrophic species that will colonize in our tanks on their own, or thru introduction from proper beneficial supplements, like tetra's safe start (which says on the package which strains of bacteria it includes), or Dr. Tim's. They work together, but independent of each other.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## GraphicGr8s (Apr 4, 2011)

Larry Whitaker said:


> By the way, the people who wrote the material on this link of yours has half the education I do about water chemistry.
> ttp://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html


My professor in college had his first phd in nuclear physics, his second in experimental medicine. He also had a law degree and was a practicing lawyer. He was head of NASA Huntsville retired. 

All that and on more than one occasion I proved him wrong. So your point on the link is?

BTW it should read "the people who wrote the material on this link of yours have half the education…"


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## keymastr (May 25, 2015)

I have seen people hang scotchbrite scrubber cloths from their HOB filters to create a wet/dry trickle filter on the cheap, where do they fall into in your "economic filter conspiracy"? Is "The Man" holding the trickle filter down?

We do not all want the splash of an overflow or the expense of the equipment needed for a sump system and as CB pointed out,(can I call you CB?), the splashing and extra aeration off-gasses the very co2 we are paying to inject into our water.

Sumps and trickle filters have their place and they are the go-to in the saltwater world. Different strokes and all that.


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## ichthyogeek (Jul 9, 2014)

Ooh! A filter war thread! I haven't seen one of these before! 

Lyn: A trickle filter is any filter that literally trickles water over various media, usually lava rocks, bio-balls, or some other low-volume, high surface area media. This allows for lots of surface area to be colonized by nitrifying bacteria, such as Nitrospira, Nitrobacter, Nitrosomonas, Nitroglycerin, whatever (ok, not nitroglycerin, that was me joking). The trickle of water keeps the bacteria moist, but allows for a small water-air barrier, allowing for high amounts of gas exchange to occur. Basically, you're putting bacteria in a high-humidity, high-oxygen, high-surface area environment which allows for a large overall metabolism to consume the waste products of your motile organisms (fish, crustacea, etc.). It's great for heavy bio-load tanks, such as large cichlid or monster fish tanks, and is usually only passed by freshwater protein skimmers (which are not feasible for "regular" aquarists) in conjunction with plant filters. But as keymastr said, in planted tanks with injected CO2, you're going to outgas the CO2 when you use the trickle filter, which basically makes the CO2 you inject useless. However, I have a guess that planted tanks with no injected CO2 but use trickle filters have higher amounts of CO2 in them than planted tanks with no trickle or similar wet-dry filters (unproven, but also untested). 

I'll agree that Larry has a point when saying that certain environments favor certain strains of bacteria. However, I'll also point out that I don't see any scientific studies complete with peer review that either contradict or confirm what he says. That being said...trickle filters are meant to host large amounts of bb; canister filters probably don't have the same amount of surface area, so you can't really compare the two accurately. I'll disagree on trickle filters being the go-to in the saltwater world. From what I've seen and read, it's mostly live rock and protein skimming now, possibly with filter socks, I've yet to see a lot of people with trickle filters-but maybe that's just me.


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## Aquatic Delight (Mar 2, 2012)

man i'm learning so much!


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## toto#77 (Jul 27, 2015)

Someone can suggest how to set a sump for freshwater in the best way?
Thanks 

Inviato dal mio Be Touch 2 utilizzando Tapatalk


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## Mariostg (Sep 6, 2014)

toto#77 said:


> Someone can suggest how to set a sump for freshwater in the best way?
> Thanks
> 
> Inviato dal mio Be Touch 2 utilizzando Tapatalk


Sumps are discussed a lot and many do it yourself here http://www.diyfishkeepers.com/forum/forum.php

Bump:


ichthyogeek said:


> Ooh! A filter war thread! I haven't seen one of these before!
> 
> Lyn: A trickle filter is any filter that literally trickles water over various media, usually lava rocks, bio-balls, or some other low-volume, high surface area media. This allows for lots of surface area to be colonized by nitrifying bacteria, such as Nitrospira, Nitrobacter, Nitrosomonas, Nitroglycerin, whatever (ok, not nitroglycerin, that was me joking).


LOL. Aren't the gas bubbles coming out of the substrate micro-explosions from nitroglycerin? :tongue:


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## Mariostg (Sep 6, 2014)

The OP seem to take a great pride in demoting Diana Walstad's book. But I don't think he understands that Diana's book is about Naturally Planted Tanks, not Water Treatment. 

It is demonstrated in the book that many plants favor NH4 uptake before NO3. See page 107, second edition, nice line chart there. There is also mention of Nitrosomonas in the book in al least one detailed footnote. Small characters like any footnote but are a must read. There is also at least one cited research paper that reports that some plants will switch NH4/NO3 uptake preference when going from daylight to night time.

So in an aquarium that has good balance of fauna and plants, any biofilter will enter in direct competition with the plants. And more than likely, it's the plants that will suffer the most. Considering I prefer to look at plants rather than bacterias (I don't have a microscope rigged to my tanks)  I will try to favor the plants.


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## Rich Guano (Jan 19, 2012)

Armed with a research paper, I say that bacteria is not the primary ammonia oxidizer in our aquariums. I have no intention of changing the opinions of the opinionated, I am just offering information for those who would like to be better informed. 

Aquarium Nitrification Revisited: Thaumarchaeota Are the Dominant Ammonia Oxidizers in Freshwater Aquarium Biofilters
Laura A. Sauder, Katja Engel, Jennifer C. Stearns,

Ammonia-oxidizing archaea (AOA) outnumber ammonia-oxidizing bacteria (AOB) in many terrestrial and aquatic environments.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0023281#s3







.


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

Rich Guano said:


> Armed with a research paper, I say that bacteria is not the primary ammonia oxidizer in our aquariums. I have no intention of changing the opinions of the opinionated, I am just offering information for those who would like to be better informed.
> 
> Aquarium Nitrification Revisited: Thaumarchaeota Are the Dominant Ammonia Oxidizers in Freshwater Aquarium Biofilters
> Laura A. Sauder, Katja Engel, Jennifer C. Stearns,
> ...


Thanks for this ~


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## Mariostg (Sep 6, 2014)

Rich Guano said:


> Armed with a research paper, I say that bacteria is not the primary ammonia oxidizer in our aquariums. I have no intention of changing the opinions of the opinionated, I am just offering information for those who would like to be better informed.
> 
> Aquarium Nitrification Revisited: Thaumarchaeota Are the Dominant Ammonia Oxidizers in Freshwater Aquarium Biofilters
> Laura A. Sauder, Katja Engel, Jennifer C. Stearns,
> ...


I might have to bookmark that website. Thanks.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

How did we ever get started on this "filters are for growing bacteria" theme? Filters are filters, and a filter removes unwanted "stuff" from what is being filtered. In our case, a filter is something that removes particles that would otherwise float around in our tank water, making the water hazy. Bacteria, that convert ammonia to nitrites and nitrites to nitrates, will grow on every surface in our tanks, whether we want them to or not. Our filters are just another place where those bacteria can grow. Our plants in a planted tank are our primary defense against having too much ammonia in our tank water. If we have a fish only tank, then we can concentrate on keeping the ammonia level low, but with a well planted tank, ammonia is not a problem.


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## Mariostg (Sep 6, 2014)

Hoppy said:


> Our plants in a planted tank are our primary defense against having too much ammonia in our tank water. If we have a fish only tank, then we can concentrate on keeping the ammonia level low, but with a well planted tank, ammonia is not a problem.


+1 Finally!!


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## MoreyFan (Jul 3, 2014)

Larry Whitaker said:


> By the way, the people who wrote the material on this link of yours has half the education I do about water chemistry.
> ttp://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html


This might be the worst retort ever. 




Larry Whitaker said:


> People with degrees in water chemistry


What degree is that? Environmental science? Biology?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Larry what are your thoughts on activated carbon?


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## MChambers (May 26, 2009)

*Yep*



Rich Guano said:


> Armed with a research paper, I say that bacteria is not the primary ammonia oxidizer in our aquariums. I have no intention of changing the opinions of the opinionated, I am just offering information for those who would like to be better informed.
> 
> Aquarium Nitrification Revisited: Thaumarchaeota Are the Dominant Ammonia Oxidizers in Freshwater Aquarium Biofilters
> Laura A. Sauder, Katja Engel, Jennifer C. Stearns,
> ...


Thanks for mentioning this. I was too lazy to do it. Funny how almost no one has adjusted their analysis to address archaea. 

Here's an article that does: 

http://fishchum.okstate.edu/feature...n-novel-insights-and-practical-considerations


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## jasa73 (Jun 3, 2007)

Interesting thread. I just converted to a sump (trickle filter, wet/dry filter) not for the bacteria but to keep all the equipment out of main display tank. I was going to sink the bioballs, but I thought why not keep them for the very reason of cultivating aerobic bacteria. Incidentally I still had my canister so i have it running with the inflow and outflow into the sump. I'm a microbiologist by training...its funny because while i understand the in and outs of our little friends, im primarily concerned about whether theyre doing their job or not. If the end result is healthy fish, clean water, no waste products...then im happy. I dont care what type of bacteria is converting the waste as long as its converted.


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## Aquatic Delight (Mar 2, 2012)

I'm hoping the OP will come back and defend his statement.


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## ebrammer252 (Jun 4, 2015)

Hmmm


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## GraphicGr8s (Apr 4, 2011)

CannaBrain said:


> I think you're a little mixed up. Heterotrophic bacteria do NOT develop in our aquariums or our filters. They do not survive. Ammonia is first converted into nitrites by nitrosomonas, then from nitrites into nitrates by nitrobacter. These are both autotrophic species that will colonize in our tanks on their own, or thru introduction from proper beneficial supplements, like tetra's safe start (which says on the package which strains of bacteria it includes), or Dr. Tim's. They work together, but independent of each other.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just another piece of the puzzle.

http://www.bioconlabs.com/autoheterobac.html


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## CannaBrain (Oct 3, 2008)

More good info, thanks for all additional links.


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