# Wearing me out!!



## pjhaddock (Sep 21, 2004)

I have read and read but cannot seem to get anywhere with my green (white) water problem. I have a 75G, about 30" of fish, pretty heavily planted, pressurized Co2, 256W flourescent light 11 hours a day, Rena XP3, black sand substrate. Tank has been set up for a few months now. 

amonia = 0
nitrite = 0
nitrate = 0 - I TRY to keep this one up...
Fe = no reading with the red sea test except RIGHT after dosing
ph = ~7
kh = 6
gh = 6

My nitrates are pretty much always 0, I bring them up to ~10 but by the end of the day they are back to 0. I dose Flourish 3ml/day and Leaf Zone (3% K2So4) 5ml/day.

Plants all grow like crazy, but I cannot get rid of the hazy water. If I siphon it into a white bucket its green. In the tank it looks white and I cant see from one end to the other. I have been changing 30-50% of the water a few times a week just to keep the water where you can see a little. I have even done a couple 80-90% water changes. But by the next day it is cloudy again. I have tried going a week without changing any water and it just gets worse. What am I doing wrong here?????  I add what I need to I THINK make phosphates my limiting nutrient to control algae but its not doing it.... I ordered my needed goodies from Greg Watson to mix my own PMDD, will be here Thursday.

Thanks!
Philip


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

You can always go the tech route and get yourself a UV sterilizer. A couple of days running a 9-15W unit should have your tank sparkling. Just do a few water changes or run a micron/diatom filter to get rid of the particulates in the water.

Have you tested you PO4 level? If your NO3 goes from 10-0ppm in a day then it sounds like *it* is your limiting nutrient, so maybe your PO4 level is on the high side. Also, try upping your CO2 to 30ppm (your pH would be ~6.8 at KH 6)


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## pjhaddock (Sep 21, 2004)

Thanks, actually the only test I dont have is a PO4 test, so I have no idea what it might be. I would think that it must be high out of the tap though if that is the problem. Also, I have only been feeding my fish maybe 5 times a week to try to help with this situation... I have my CO2 go right into the inlet on my XP3, every so often it makes the noise and spits out a bunch of bubbles, no problems with it though. Been doing around 2-3 bubbles per second.


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## Spar (Aug 7, 2003)

If you have easy access to RO water, you could do a 50/50 RO/Tap mix, then add "RO Right" back to the water for the amount of RO that went in, and it will help tons on the algea problem. 1/2 the PO4 anyway.


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

The Hagen PO4 test kit works well enough for me, although the color bars can be challenging to match to.

Try to get it down to 1-2ppm and keep your NO3 ~10ppm. For your CO2 you may want to build a simple PVC external reactor and plumb that into your filter's return line. If your XP3 is regularly spitting up bubbles then you're not getting efficient diffusion of CO2 into your water (just wasting CO2). Using an external reactor on my 125g tank I use <2bps and can keep my CO2 level at 30+ppm


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Hey there PJ!

Some things here sound a little funny to me, but first things first, get a phosphate test kit. You can do all the guessing in the world, but in order to do this right, you need to know. I suspect your phosphate levels have a heavy hand in what is going on , however we need to know the phosphate level in order to truly diagnose your problem.

Forget the RO and the RO Right. I don't see the point of stripping the water of minerals, only to add minerals back. Mixing RO and tap water I can see. Besides, without knowing your water parameters out of the tap (after they have sat for 24 hours) big water amendments is putting the cart before the horse.

Your nitrates are always at 0? Even though you dose up to 10ppm daily, you still end up with 0 nitrates by the end of the day? What are you using to dose nitrates? Using up 10ppm is a heck of a lot!

You are dosing both Flourish (3ml) and Leaf Zone (5ml) daily. I have never used Leaf Zone, but I imagine it is supplies micros, just like the Flourish. I think you may be overdoing it a bit by dosing both products. 

I also think you could cut back on the photo period a little. Jump down from 11 hours to 9. 3.5 WPG at 11 hours is a lot of light for a long time. 

Stop doing so many water changes. Maintain your regular once a week schedule. Some folks do constant water changes, black outs and try flocculants. You may actually be prolonging your problem. After reading our own Wasserpest's opinions on green water, I agree with his common sense approach about letting the green water take it's course. The algae will use up all of the nutrients available to it, and then fizzle out.

Mike


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

As momo said, I'd leave it alone (give it some time and let the tank balance itself).


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## pjhaddock (Sep 21, 2004)

THanks for all the replies... I have been using Green Light Stump Remover for KNO3. On the back it says Potassium Nitrate but I have some of all the needed goodies except for Phosphate on the way from Greg Watson. If I dose it to ~10ppm in the morning, and test it the next morning it will be reading nearly 0ppm, maybe 1 or 2ppm. The lowest mark on the test is 5ppm so its a LITTLE hard to tell when its below that. I will go ahead and cut back the photoperiod some also. Guess I should look into a reactor for my CO2 as well so I can use less of it. I just jacked it up to around 4bps, will see what that gives me tomorrow. The Leaf Zone ONLY has Fe and K2SO4 in it, no micro's. Should I not fertilize at all until the cloudyness goes away?? Is that what you mean by let the green water use up nutrients and run its course?? Thanks again!

Philip


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## pjhaddock (Sep 21, 2004)

Trying to see if the recomendation is to stop all fertilization until the green water clears or what? I kept my nitrates up since last night around 8ppm or so and the water has become cloudier than ever over the day... :icon_conf I dont see how the plants can get ahead of the algae if the light is unable to reach the plants well cause of the cloudiness?? Thanks again! I want to figure out how to whoop it instead of filters or UV to learn if its possible... lol

Philip


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Philip, did you get the Phosphate test kit?

You really need to get that kit and get an idea on the phosphate level in your aquarium. That is the only way anyone is going to get a clue as to what is going on down there in Jacksonville! That kit is a priority!!  

Stop dosing. You need to get an idea on the phosphates first. See, it is all interrelated. Everything hinges on everything else. Phosphates and nitrates exist in a ratio in a healthy planted aquarium. We need to see how we can achieve that ratio in your aquarium.

I still think you are really pounding the nitrates. 10ppm per diem is a lot. What type of plants are you growing?

Mike


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## pjhaddock (Sep 21, 2004)

My plants are 4 or 5 giant hygro's, left lawn is Dwarf Sag, right lawn is Lilaeopsis, 4 Ludwigia, a bunch of Val's, 1 sword, bout 6 crypts, 2 Anubias Nana, bout 5 Java Ferns, 2 alternanthera. I cannot find a Phosphate Kit anywhere around here, I looked today. Guess I will have to order from Big Al's so will be a week getting here on that. I dosed the Nitrates last night with dry powder instead of my solution that I have mixed. I tested about 30 minutes after I put it in and got around 8ppm, it hovered close to that throughout the day today, I had to put in a tiny bit of solution when it got down around 5ppm once, insignificant. I did not work today so I tested it a few times throughout the day just to see what happens. Maybe I am catching up on the Nitrates??? I dunno there, that does not really make sense to me, but its not back down to ~0 after 24 hours like usual.....


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## pjhaddock (Sep 21, 2004)

OK I found a phosphate test kit today, found it across town. Its a Hagen. I tested the water in the aquarium and the water out of the faucet 2 times and all tests came out around 0.25ppm. If phosphate is not a problem, then where the heck does that leave me???

THanks again!
Philip


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## pjhaddock (Sep 21, 2004)

Hey, I made it to Algae Grower!!! :icon_bigg :tongue: atleast I am living up to my title.. haha I dont have any other algae that I can find though except for a bit of green spot on the anubia's and glass that I have to clean every couple weeks or so... BUT, if I could see my plants that might change!


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

Philip,
Have you checked you NO3 test kit against a reference solution? 

Mix 1tsp of KNO3 into 340ml of water. Adding 1ml of this solution to 1 liter of water will give you ~10.1ppm of NO3. Check your test kit against this solution to make sure it is giving accurate readings.


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## pjhaddock (Sep 21, 2004)

I will mix up a solution and check it tonight to make sure. Here is a pic of what my tank is looking like right now.. :icon_redf 

ftp.pjhaddock.gotdns.com/Algae.JPG

that should bring it up....

Philip


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I would do two things: cut back your light to about half of what it is now, until things clear up. This should slow down things a little, and keep those NO3 levels more stable.
Second, I would stop changing water. You mentioned you did that and it made things worse, but you need to hang on just a little longer, about 8 to 10 days. You can not "thin out" the algae with water changes, and you are constantly feeding it. If you let it go it's course it will get much worse, but then quickly disappear. It is an imbalance of organisms, and they will eat up that specific nutrient combination that they need and collapse. Once the water is clear, your tank will be immune and you can go ahead and do regular water changes.


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## pjhaddock (Sep 21, 2004)

THanks for the suggestions. I have totally turned off 2 of my lights, there are only 2 running now so 128watts. I had them on 2 timers. I won't change anymore water till something starts happening here. Also been keeping the KNO3 ~10 and that is the ONLY thing I am dosing lately. It has gotten alot worse over the past couple of days as you said it would. Just for "S's and G's" I took a Magnum HOT and some DE per instructions found, and have had it running for ~20 hours now and it has not helped either... I thought that would clear it up :icon_conf Wierd, the filter is totally clogged with the DE if you shine a light it in it to see, cant even see the ripples anymore, its still flowing good, but not filtering the green water. Oh well, back to the waiting game I guess....

Philip


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

pjhaddock:

I had the same thing happen to me once while attemping to control pH. I think it was a phosphate problem but the tank cleared up on its own.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

The Magnum with DE _should_ clean out the green water. Perhaps there are different grades of DE, some coarser than others?

Anyway, if you go the waiting-it-out route, playing around with DE will again delay your success. It has to get really thick before it gets better. Also, I would not dose any NO3 or other fertilizers while not doing water changes.

You might look into your NO3O4 ratio. Some ppl have found that green water totally went away when they dosed PO4. You find that with higher ratios (like yours, 40:1) green algae takes over, while lower ratios benefit BGA. You might want to bring down NO3 to about 5 ppm, and dose PO4 to about 0.5 ppm (if the wait-it-out method doesn't seem to bring success, or in addition to it).


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## pjhaddock (Sep 21, 2004)

I have a quick question about the DE filtering. Do you have to keep recharging it? Meaning will it only soak up so much or should it keep filtering until it clogs up basically? My reason for asking is because now that I have been diong it for 3 days, I have kept recharging it for no reason really but every time I recharge it the water seems to get a bit clearer. But let it keep running and it will not improve anymore over the initial hour or so, recharge and clearer again, the DE powder is green when I dump it out. I can actually see through the tank end to end right now. 

Philip


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Yes you need to keep recharging it. DE filters are not made to run continuously. You charge them, let them do their job, then put them back into the box (stand, garage, whatever). 

A cup of DE should go a long way to clear up a tank, I don't think it will be saturated fully after one hour, but if so you just have to keep cleaning and recharging it. Problem with this method is that the GW can return at any moment. If you balance your nutrients and wait it out most likely the tank becomes immune to GW.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

You are chasing your own tail running a DE filter on that green water.

As Wasserpest has stated, let the green water run it's course and concentrate on getting your nutrients and CO2 in balance. It will go away, not as fast as with the DE filtration, but with a lot less effort and it will be gone for good. 

Mike


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## pjhaddock (Sep 21, 2004)

The reason for trying the DE filter was this. I read alot of posts where people fought green water for a long time like I have, a month or more, then used a DE or UV to get rid of it and it never came back. I know UV will work. Is algae able to feed on itself???????? The dying of old cells feeding the new cells to a point that its not correctable????? I cannot detect any nutrients in my tank anymore and some of my plants are loosing their colors and turning pale. No nitrates, no amonia, no nitrites, no Phosphate, no iron, CO2 been holding ~25, I was not dosing anything except for the nitrate, and it has been used up back to 0. Since the filter I started dosing just potassium from what I read algae cannot use it or something like that and its a way to get rid of all other nutrients so hopefully the plants can gain the upper hand. Well, that is what I am hoping for anyways.... I will know something soon, knowing my luck it will come back just like you say.  

Green water grower,
Philip


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I am afraid you got it slightly backwards :icon_bigg You can not starve algae out of your tank. What you want to do is to provide the best conditions for your plants (which does include measurable levels of nutrients) and things tend to clear up all by themselves.

There are several methods to battle green water, but bringing nutrients to zero isn't one of them. Like I said... make up your mind as to which method you want to use, bring up your nutrients to low levels (NO3/PO4 to 5/0.5 ppm) and have lots of patience.


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## pjhaddock (Sep 21, 2004)

*Update*

Well as I wrote in this post earlier I have been running a DE filter just to try to clear it up cause I am aggrivated with dealing with it for so long. Its been running non stop for 4 days now, water actually got pretty clear as of yesterday morning. I have had to recharge it 7 times now. It seems that the algae is growing faster than the DE filter can remove it now though. Its actually getting cloudier today while the DE is still running. I just took it out and it was BRIGHT green again, I am not putting it back in though. Its only been about about an hour or so and you cant see from one end of the tank to the other already... :icon_frow Guess I will keep dosing K and keep the NO3 ~5 since my PO4 is .25 unless my test is bad??? Tap and tank read the same everytime I have tested them, .25. I dont have any PO4 to dose or make up a solution though to "test the test". Back to green water waiting and hoping... Its kinda embarassing when people come over and see this nice big tank, stand and canopy in my living room, and its green like a swimming pool that has not been taken care of.

Philip


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

The thicker it gets, the quicker it will disappear. It's natural, things tend to balance out themselves if you don't interfere too much.


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## pjhaddock (Sep 21, 2004)

I am going by that. I am not going to mess with it anymore. I will keep my N ~5ppm and keep dosing K per the instructions, and no water changes, it has now been a week since I changed any water, still dont change?. But not dose with my PMDD mix until its clear. Once that happens I will start dosing around 1ml/day and observe before adjusting the dose. Sound like the right plan? 

Many thanks through my stubborness and aggrivation with it!
Philip


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

You have to stop playing with it. You have to take Wasserpest's advice. He has told you several time, now be good and listen to him!  :hihi: 

The PMDD mix you are using. Why? 

In my opinion you are better off testing for nutrients individually and dosing those nutrients individually. With your PMDD mix, you are dosing nutrients you might not need, and you will be throwing your water chemistry out of whack on a pretty consistent basis.

Mike


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## Bonsai (Jul 26, 2004)

I think that you really should just let the tank balance itself out. I had GW (albeit maybe not as bad as yours) last week. I went away Friday and came home Sunday evening to a (almost crystal) clear tank. Like you, I probably would have fudged w/ it all weekend if I were home and it'd (likely) still be GW today. Let the tank take it's course.

Of course, I purchased a UV when I was on the trip .... only to find out that, maybe, I didn't need it. I hooked it up Monday anyways .... crystal clear since.


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## ninoboy (Jan 26, 2004)

Hehe, what a coincident. I also just finished battling with GW. Like Bonsai, I also purchased UV ster but in my case, I ended up NOT using it at all. My GW had been coming and going in my new hex tank for 2 months and had never seem to clear up totally. It actually got worse when both nitrate and phosphate level bottomed out. AFter that, I kept my nitrate at 5ppm and PO4 at 0.3ppm. GW cleared up a bit but the slight green hue was still there for weeks. So I took out my HOT magnum and DE. Ran it for 6 hours and it totally cleared the GW. I did a large water change and they didn't come back at all. So I increased my nitrateO4 level to 10:0.75. It's been over a week now and there is no sign of GW.

Good luck to you. There is nothing wrong on using diatom filter at the final stage of GW. But using it during the GW blooming period wouldn't settle the problem roud:


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## pjhaddock (Sep 21, 2004)

I'm being good now, I promise!!! lol :icon_redf I have this thing with tinkering and fiddling with things that dont seem right, or are not quite what I want them to be. But I have not touched it other than keeping the Nitrates at 5ppm which they seem to be staying there almost on their own now, my PO4 is still .25 according to the test kit, and my CO2 is staying ~25ppm. I have not dosed any micro's....

Philip


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## pjhaddock (Sep 21, 2004)

OK an update here. Im not tinkering with things anymore but I did last night dose some PO4 to get the 10-1 ratio that I keep hearing about. Right before I went to bed, I dosed phosphate to 1ppm and nitrate to 10ppm. When I got up this morning I turned on my light and the tank was clearer than it ever has been! Can someone explain this and how it could happen over night when its dark?? We will see if it stays this clear and continues toward being crystal.
Philip


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Did you read my post from 9/26?


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## ninoboy (Jan 26, 2004)

That's a good sign. But you will see the green water start to kick right back after a few hours the lights are on. If it's going on the right direction, the green cloud would get thinner and thinner every day. It always starts with pretty clear tank early in the morning. After a week, if there is any small amount of cloud left, you could use your DE to clean it up roud:


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## pjhaddock (Sep 21, 2004)

Wasserpest said:


> Did you read my post from 9/26?


Yes, that is why I went ahead and gave it a shot, otherwise I would have never tried it. Now after a couple days with the 10/1 ratio, my water is CRYSTAL CLEAR, even in the evenings after the lights have been on all day!!!! It does not make lots of sense to me but....... WHOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Thanks!!! :icon_bigg 

Philip


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

It works!!! roud:


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## pjhaddock (Sep 21, 2004)

roud: 

Here is a pic after running the diatom filter for like 5 days...  
ftp://ftp.pjhaddock.gotdns.com/After Diatom.JPG

Here is a pic today 2 days after dosing PO4 to get nitrate/posphate to a 10/1 ratio. :icon_bigg 
ftp://ftp.pjhaddock.gotdns.com/After Dosing PO4.JPG

Comments and suggestions appreciated now that the tank can be seen!

Philip


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## Bonsai (Jul 26, 2004)

Congratulations!


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Wow! I didn't realize you had plants in that aquarium! :hihi: 

Mike


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

Haha...tank looks great now that the plants are viewable.


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