# Cheap Nano Reef Questions (sorry lol)



## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

I realize this is a freshwater website but I am a member here, and I have been dabbling with some research on nano reef tanks and wanted the opinion of anyone who may have some insight before I joint a salt water forum. 

I eventually may try a nano reef tank, the smallest I can start with. However this is a bit controversial depending on what you are trying to achieve, I obviously want the live rock and corals, I will want a snail/shrimp possibly both. I think I may want a single clown fish too and that is it, this is where the controversy comes in. 

I have seen cheap nano reef tanks built out of a 5.5G tank, however it seems like if you want a single clown fish people really recommend a 10G tank so I am not sure if keeping a clown fish in a 5.5G is a reasonable goal? 

This is where I may either break down and go to a 10G or skip the clown fish until I get the inverts/coral down and decide it is for me. 

Back to equipment, I have seen people with a 5.5G use a normal HOB filter rated for a 10G tank combined with a small power-head and they claim it works for them. The problem I think about here is how are they removing protein with just a HOB? It seems like the much better alternative would be to use a 5.5G or 10G and turn it sideways so you use it the deep way, then seal in a piece of glass to block-off a utilities/equipment compartment in the back which can act as a sump area for a skimmer? I have seen HOB skimmers that are separate units, I would run both a HOB filter and skimmer side by side which would save me the hassle of making all sorts of compartments in the back but I would still use the partition to hide the heater and possibly extra bio media...the compartment could be extremely narrow this way if I use both HOBs with a small partition. Then I could leave it open top because of the HOBs, and use them as planters sort of like a saltwater riparium, the plants would hide the compartment and HOBs. 

Thank you!


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

The trick here is to figure out what you want to keep in the system and then build the system around that. Since you want a clown and corals, you should get something reasonable in size. Keep in mind that you need to allow for growth and clowns can get up to 4 or 5 inches long. 

I would say that if you jusy want corals and inverts, you could set up a 5.5 gal tank, but this is a little tricky to maintain if your not experienced. Corals need excellent water conditions. I'd say a 10 gal tank is doable for a clown, but still a bit small. Consider opting for a 15 gal tank. It's not that much bigger and the additional volume of water will make things easier, especially when your new to this. The tank also has the advantage os being 24 inches long, so a lot of lighting fits on it well.

On a nano a decent hang on tank filter will do just fine. A skimmer is optional, since it's fairly easy to maintain the tank with water changes. You change 5 gal of water, and you have made a 33% water change on a 15 gal tank, or a 50% water change on a 10 gal tank.

I wouldn't bother with additional bio media. You simply don't need it in SW reef systems. That why you have all that live rock. That is a massive amount of bio media. You'll easily be able to hide your heater behind all this.

I also wouldn't bother trying to add various compartments in the tank. They are a pain to construct, and decrease available water volume. If you really want a tank like this, your best option is going out and getting something like a Red Sea C-130. It's about 34 gal, a bit larger than what your looking for, but is an all in one, more or less complete system. You can often find them used at an excellent price.

Lastly, join one of the reef forums. Sometimes they can be a bit intimidating, but you'll get much better answers to your questions. Good luck.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Thank you for you reply! I would say that the space I have for it right now is more important than a clown fish, unless there are other fish I can run in a nano?

I do not have room for any external equipment under a stand, I plan to use a floor safe as a stand next to my bed. With that being said I really want a cube, and I may be able to save money by just converting a freshwater nano cube. I will not have much room for coral so I may have to stick to certain types that do not compete/sting one another so that it can be as dense as possible. I can not see going any bigger than an 8 gallon cube, I will look around at tanks and see what I can find. 

I will certainly end up joining a forum before making any investments.

I would like to build around something like a JBJ 6G Nano Cube, sell the hood on eBay before I even use it and upgrade to a better lighting system keeping it open top:


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

One other thought about SW tanks is that it's very easy to get SW splash all over everything. It can make a big mess. This can really get bad with open top tanks. Although that is not reason alone to not use an open top.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

I may leave the top on since it will be by my bed I will not want any light leakage. I did some measuring and I can fit a 12 gallon JBJ tank where I want so I think I may do that when the time comes, with 12 gallons I can fit a single clown or something I'm sure.


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## snakeybird (May 19, 2014)

Reef Central (reefcentral.com) would be an excellent resource for your endeavor; there is a nano tank forum under the special interests group section. I ran a 10 gallon nano with a clownfish for 9 years, and the RC forums were quite helpful. IME, my saltwater nano was far more maintenance intensive (daily water top offs and cleaning salt creep) than a low tech 10 gallon planted tank, but wasn't more difficult. 

Many nano reef tanks are run w/o a skimmer, as water changes are used to keep up with removal of dissolved organics, and if you are using live rock, that generally replaces the HOB filter (at least for biological filtration). I suggest figuring out what lighting you will need/use for the corals you want to keep prior to settling on a tank; there are a lot of great LED fixtures in the reef world, but figuring out which will fit your system and goals is tricky. Having a detailed plan and concrete goals before you set up a tank will really be helpful.

With regards to saltwater nano fish, live aquaria has a decent list.

With regards to using the floor safe as a stand, if it is metal, saltwater splash WILL get onto it and corrode the metal. A coat of marine grade metal paint (such as is used on metal boats) may stop this from occurring; I haven't tried this, but certainly will if I ever use a metal stand again for any aquarium. 

FWIW, if I had it to do over again, no way I would do anything smaller than 29 gallon, preferably a 40B. Having said that, success with a 10 gallon nano is absolutely possible.

Good luck!


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## Chibils (Nov 18, 2007)

nano-reef.com is a great resource. While they aren't really a nano board nowadays, the community there is really great and tight knit. Less arguing than ReefCentral or reef2reef about small things and more open to newbies (in my opinion). I think a 12G JBJ cube is a great intro. Just make sure you are constantly topping off the water as it evaporates and the salt doesn't, meaning that a lower water level than usual means a higher salinity than usual and that's not good. 

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk


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## Duanegraham (Mar 4, 2016)

Hey teebo, I just left saltwater aquarium keeping, it was fun for a while but a tricky hobby. A few things, I had a 90 gallon tank and a 20 gallon quarantine tank, a far cry from nano, but one thing to understand is the smaller the tank, the harder to maintain. You have to be very careful with evaporation on a small tank, it will throw off your salinity quickly, and lead to a higher percentage of salt in the water than is safe. My 20 gallon I had to constantly test, but 90 gallon was much less effort. Corals are as mentioned very fussy. They need perfect conditions, good lighting, very clean r/o water, very accurate salinity and well established tank, you must cycle fishless with saltwater or you WILL have losses, cycling with some live rock is the way to go. 2 months at least before adding fish, clowns are quite resilient so a good choice. I'd put 2 small ones in a 15 gallon tank, especially if they're mated, it will be much more interesting that way and much later maybe a bubble tip anenome that will be host them. Snails are great, cleaning the glass all day,you can get a few of those after there's been some algae for them to graze on. Shrimp, I'd put one cleaner or one blood shrimp. Or another cool option, as I had, was a pistol shrimp watchman goby pair. They work together, the shrimp is blind and digs burrows, and the goby keeps a lookout and brings food and sifts the live sand. Shrimp are more touchy to water parameters so fish should be first. Best thing is probably to check kijiji or lfs for package deals, they're "usually" put together for a reason. I'd recommend a small surface skimmer to help remove the protein and a small sump, much easier to clean but a canister would be good too, for hob make sure it's a good size, probably rated from at least double your water volume. It's a tricky hobby but worth it, the colours are unmatched in freshwater (no offense) haha. And as mentioned earlier reefcentral.Com is a fantastic forum, I am also a member there as well. Best of luck, and definitely ask questions, there's so much to learn is sw. Cheers! Oh and p.s. when starting a siphon by mouth in a saltwater tank, have an empty glass ready to spit in! And perhaps a cold beer nearby doesn't hurt.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Lots of talk about evaporation in a nano, it will be topped off daily as it is bedside however with a JBJ unit the tank is pretty well sealed so evaporation should be at minimal?

The more I look into this the more I want an anenome, the clowns have fun in them! I never cycle with fish in any tank. 

I am pretty set on the JBJ 12 gallon sealed tank, with an in-tank sump in the rear which has spaces for my heater, media, mini surface skimmer, sponges, etc. I may not start with live rock because of hitch hikers, I may start with live sand and dry rock just let it cycle for a while I am in no rush!

Thank you


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Jan 16, 2013)

Your location says New England, if so you may want to check out Boston Reefers Society Online Community - The Front Page 

I think a realistic budget would better help your choice's, and receive feedback.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Im an hour from the New England Aquarium, thanks!


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

Teebo said:


> ...
> The more I look into this the more I want an anenome, the clowns have fun in them! I never cycle with fish in any tank.
> 
> I am pretty set on the JBJ 12 gallon sealed tank, ...


If your going to get an anemone, wait for about one year after the tank is set up. They require excellent lighting by reef system standards. They also require high quality water and a well established tank. 

You should also have a much larger tank for an anemone. I once had a green bubble tip anemone fill almost 2/3 of a 90 gal tank. You need not go that large, but I'd recommend a 40 gal breeder as about a minimum size. 

I am talking about the large clownfish hosting kinds of anemones here. You could use the small rock anemones or mushroom anemones with out any problems, but clowns don't usually host in them.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Checkout this link, this is a JBJ 12G with a clown playing in an anemone he even has a star fish! Is this an expert reefist and that is the only way this is possible? 

https://youtu.be/VoeVeal71dM


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## Duanegraham (Mar 4, 2016)

Wow that is a beautiful tank for sure. But a person doesn't need to be an expert to run any sort of tank, that's what these forums are for, asking questions when you're not sure and learning as your go. As long as your take your time, and do your homework a tank like that is attainable. It will take time though, patience is paramount in reefing. As far as the bubble tip taking up a lot of space I disagree, most grow to certain size then they split into two, the other could be sold or possibly traded at your lfs. You'll see when you get to that point that they will wander around in your tank to find their favorite spot according to light and current so make sure he finds a home before adding hard corals as they can be damaged by it moving around. Here is how I would do it: cycle with dry live rock, a little bit of living live rock with coraline algae growth (and yes, check for hitchikers) once cycled add maybe 2 clowns, wait a few weeks and add shrimp and snails, maybe 3-6 months layer if you've had no losses add an anenome or soft coral, and a few months later again some hard corals if you like. That's how I'd rate them based on ease of keeping so that's why the fish you could add first, next inverts, then anenome or soft coral and lastly hard coral. You're 12 gallon will work, just keep it simple with how much you put in it, and a tank like that is very attainable. But as a side note, I'm not a big fan of lids, I used egg crate only to keep fish from jumping out, mainly wrasse, they sometimes feel the need to explore. Salt creep was never a problem in my tanks, people you don't have bubbles like in fw tanks, except for the protein skimmer return which would be in your sump, a little guard will help with that. Lids prevent gas from escaping in my opinion, but if your sump has anot open top it may not be a problem. Plus evaporation is just a sign to add fresh water which is good for life in the tank. As you can see in my old tank that was fishless in the first pic while fish were in quarantine for ich, I had algae issues due to bad water, an r/o unit would have fixed that but having one wasn't possible. For hard corals it's necessary though. In the third pic you can see where the anenome chose his spot, about two feet away from where I placed it, but at least he was visible, sometimes they hide in the back in a large tank.


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## Duanegraham (Mar 4, 2016)

So I was trying to quote davek on needing large tank for an enenome and failed, I hang my head in shame. I disagree though, I haven't seen them take over a tank like that, but I could be wrong.


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## Duanegraham (Mar 4, 2016)

[/QUOTE]
You should also have a much larger tank for an anemone. I once had a green bubble tip anemone fill almost 2/3 of a 90 gal tank. You need not go that large, but I'd recommend a 40 gal breeder as about a minimum size. [/QUOTE]

I have never seen a bubble tip anenome grow that large, usually they grow a certain size then split into two seperate anenomes, is it possible it was a carpet anenome? They can cover a great deal of real estate.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

That tank is pretty much what I want, it has enough color to keep me entertained for its size. 

Thanks for the advice I would have added my cleanup crew before the fish, and possibly corals before the fish. In freshwater I usually cycle, then plant adding cleanup crew at the same time then wait a while before I add my fish (feeding cleanup crew). 

I personally have all open top tanks, but that is freshwater. Some of the reasons to keep a lid with this setup is being next to my bed I am not sure how strong the smell of salt would be, and mainly light-bleeding I do not want any light overshooting the tank....my head will be about 18" from the tank. Also its perfectly fit and comes with the tank already, I will make sure I lift it once a day to release any built up gasses as long as there is enough space above the water for them to build in. 

Wow nice tank how big is that? With the price of corals I can not see having that much surface area to fill, I would want it densely colored even if its a larger tank which means I am probably limited to what can live up against each other. I have a question that has always picked my brain about saltwater tanks...what is the deal with the multi-colored algae looking stuff that covers the glass, rock, and power heads? I always wondered why people never cleaned all that color off their hardware in the tank but it actually looks nice. 

I had no idea anenome moved! I thought all corals were like plants; they can stretch and grow but not get up and move. Maybe an anenome is a plant and not a coral? Maybe I should do more research before asking these questions. Can a carpet anenome be pruned back the way you prune freshwater plants??


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## ktownhero (Mar 21, 2011)

I kept a 10g nano Reef for many years that had nothing more than an Aquaclear 110 (with sponge only) and a single powerhead. I kept some corals and two clownfish. 

I also had a 20g with the exact same set up except I made the AC 110 into a mini refugium. 

Don't over think them. All you need is a ton of live rock, water movement and a light stock and you're golden. Very easy to keep. (easier than a planted tank). 

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk


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## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnzPP0jZ15Y


I think you should make one of those 

they are the cheapest and easiest to run, due to no topoff machinery needed and they run 4 days in between topoff. they do the wall of color you want, too small for fish but that's your liability anyway in a small reef tank, the fish. not the coral. 

size is not what determines stability in a reef, this vase is older than 90% of reef tanks online. control of params like temp and salinity are what really matter in reefing, the rest is just weekly water changes. the reverse is actually true in reefing, the smaller it is the easier it is to run vs a large reef but only if temp and salinity controls are in place, without them then dilution and gallonage certainly matters. 

but with salinity control in place, you can change all the water in this tank in 3 mins, and keep it perpetually clean, much easier than working on a larger tank. if algae grows on a rock in one of these, you lift it out and remove it. with a large tank people tend to spend mos and yrs doing things to the water, and waiting for hope. 

the square tank you have pictured is more common but it requires daily topoff or auto eq to do it, and its footprint is a lot bigger than the vase. the vase is bubbled, the airpump is louder that may not work for you. both of these tanks have the same stability challenges despite their size differences...anything under 15 gallons or so behaves similarly


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## Chibils (Nov 18, 2007)

Keep it as simple as possible. Know what's important (this is the most difficult part - read, read read) and stick to it. I would say that the important things are:

1. Keep your parameters as stable as possible. Salinity is big in a small tank due to evaporation. Monitor it. If you keep corals, monitor calcium/magnesium/alkalinity/pH. Nothing but heart ache if you don't.

2. In a nano, you have limited equipment options. Get the best filter, etc. that you can. Don't mess with things like refugiums unless they offer something you *need* (such as a place for pods to reproduce for specific fish that you shouldn't keep in a nano any way). Make a list of equipment you think you should have and then remove anything you don't think you need.

3. Keep logs of everything you do to the tank or anything you see hapen. It's easy to tinker with reefs - as well as fun - but it also causes problems for people all the time.

4. Go slow! There's a popular and accurate phrase in the hobby that says "nothing but death happens quickly". A lot of times letting it run its course is the best option unless it's something really important, like a sick fish. 

5. Take *all advice* with a grain of salt. This is a hobby where established knowledge gets overturned all the time. While I think everything I've said is great advice, I'm just some rando on the internet. This is all based on my experiences and readings. When I started almost 10 years ago, the prevailing thought was that nitrates and phosphates were dangerous and had to be removed for the health of fish and corals. Now people are dosing nitrates in their tanks! - As a corollary to this point, don't get caught up in fads either. They can waste your tank if you aren't careful (and even if you are)!

6. Know your limits.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk


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## Chibils (Nov 18, 2007)

Teebo said:


> I had no idea anenome moved! I thought all corals were like plants; they can stretch and grow but not get up and move. Maybe an anenome is a plant and not a coral? Maybe I should do more research before asking these questions. Can a carpet anenome be pruned back the way you prune freshwater plants??


Absolutely! They are very much animals, more closely related to jellyfish than corals. Anemones cannot be pruned, and "pruning" any coral (called "fragging" e.g. "fragmenting") is a careful process. You have to make sure that stony corals each get a "mouth" when they are fragged or they won't be able to eat or expel waste. 

This is a commercial for Fauna Marin coral food. You don't have to use something like this (most people feed these types of coral frozen food or pellet food) but you can see a large brain coral eating in this video.
https://youtu.be/VmGY3XvTGHw

Afterward, they also will expel some waste out of their mouth too (like a small cloud of dust).

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## Chibils (Nov 18, 2007)

brandon429 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnzPP0jZ15Y
> 
> 
> I think you should make one of those
> ...


Ease of maintenance and stability are inverse. Larger tanks are harder to maintain but easier to keep "stable", which is a huge factor in reef tanks. Small set ups are harder to keep stable but easier to maintain. If you are good at one or the other, choose accordingly.

JMO.

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## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

My take was more geared towards comparing two smaller tanks not so much a 1 gal vs a 60

I agree dilution helps with power outages, longer time till frozen etc or if you misdose the smaller tank quicker bad happens, but of the biological params between two nanos I think it's tight race to compare

between a 9 gallon tank with no ato, and a 1 gallon tank w no ato need I'm calling it close lol

We think excluding fish equates the two sizes in risk. Large tanks lose whole systems with fish death while on vacation or a full dump doser malfunction, sometimes having bare bones helps in longevity too beyond just size


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## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

There is yet another setup even simpler than mine
It won't grow as many corals but it's even more stable, zero topoff. Keeps basic corals only has no water movement beyond natural (temp mediated water movement, Brownian motion, stilled systems aren't still

Google

PJ reefs mini reefs

Quarter gallon  no heater no pump

It runs more stable chemically just sitting there vs 200 gallon reef tank, but only grows a few small corals, ultra slow reefing so space won't fill up.

Those are valid systems I watched the concept get invented ( stilled reefs, not sealed reefs that's not Paul's discovery ) at nano reef.com

The concept of stilled reef tanks is profound and legit and new for us, formerly claimed impossible just like pico reefs in general

I know the OP asked about a typical reef tank, everyone wants fish. As he mentioned size, cost and noise and for those we have strong examples


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

Duanegraham said:


> So I was trying to quote davek on needing large tank for an enenome and failed, I hang my head in shame. I disagree though, I haven't seen them take over a tank like that, but I could be wrong.


Your welcome to disagree with me, but I recommended only a 40 gal breeder for a BTA. I don't consider this to be a large tank at all. I'd put that in the category of a large nano. Now if someone put a BTA in a 30 gal tank, that could work. Note the op was talking about a 5.5 gal tank or a 10 gal tank, both sizes I would consider far too small for a BTA.

Some of this size does depend on the exact species and the system it's in and all that. Even so, BTA can get larger that you would think. Ever see even a modest size one fully expanded? They can easily get 8 - 10 inches across, and yes they can deflate to something smaller than a tennis ball. 

As for the size mine got to, I am speaking from personal experience here. Over the years I have seen several others about as large. So yes, some BTAs do get that big. Some claim that an anemone splits when it's not quite happy with it's environment. I have seen them split under all sorts of conditions, so I'm not buying it, but I thought I'd pass it along.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Are both carpeting and BTA the same being alive? I saw one at the pet store today the bottom had a sucker like a giant snail, once they are happy they do not move right?

So all coral are more living creatures than actual plants? Soft and hard? That is kind of creepy haha

Thanks for all your input everyone, I do take things very slow no problem there. I certainly would like to start small and the ReefBowl is an awesome concept I never knew about!! I really like this idea I may be able to make it work for me, they do sell silent air pumps. The only thing is without a heater that bowl will get down to 60F in the winter here possibly even lower @ 58F. There is so much bacteria in bio-rock that doing a 100% water change in a SW tank does not affect the chemistry as long as your additives have been added? I see people with a cleaner shrimp and snails in these reef vases as well! 

If I was to make a vase...regarding the lighting I have a bunch of 10,000K LED bulbs does it have to be 15-20K for corals? 

Thanks for the link I see how the polyps have a mouth/craphole...catdog stuff what a horrible life haha

I asked about the multicolored algae looking stuff on the SW tanks at the LFS today and they said it is indeed algae, and if its red it is beneficial. They were not sure about other colors or if other colors were even algae. 

Every piece of coral for sale was mounted to a tiny ceramic looking disc is that artificial bio-rock? Do you pluck them off and plant them or wait for them to move off the disc and onto your bio-rock? 

Thanks I know this is loaded with questions


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## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

reefbowls do have a heater, search out either mine or ones from Maritza the vase reef there are full build steps online

not for anems or fish, so that must be factored ahead of time as well. the things they do best are cost, the cheapest reef that can be made for several types of coral, and stability of running. you change the water weekly and you add distilled water as topoff every few or couple days depending on how fast you have your air rate set. simplicity is their appeal but some people want animals and things added that require the normal size reef tank, technicality and cost. what they keep is a simple shrimp and then several types of coral we can see from the vids...not the fish or the larger anems though. 

you can do 100% water changes and dose nothing to these, only feeding is required. I dose mine but Maritza does not, its ok to do either way, the feeding quality matters most and the weekly water changes. these are a nice way to see if you want to go full on reefing before you spend all the usual $ to start

regarding lighting selection there is only one way that works to avoid having to guess, and that's to locate a nano reef thread where corals from plugs grew into larger corals under whichever light you are considering, only that can pinpoint which light works ahead of time, an actual grow thread. not a thread with the light shining over someones nano reef, a grow thread. 

its ok to guess and try a light too, that's just different than starting with whats been demod already


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

The few videos I saw online of picos did not include a heater, some used a tiny power-head instead of just an air stone. 

The only reason I would want an anem is if I had / for the clown fish so that is okay. I would be happy with coral and a shrimp, I see two types of SQ shrimp at my LFS, some are red and white with long claws and some are red and off-white with tiny claws. 

I think this is a great way to break into the hobby, however I am not 100% sure the vase is for me the shape is not very good to work with I can not view it 360 degrees where it would be. With this being said, I think I would like to back away from my 12 gallon idea into a pico without fish, then if I like this I can jump from a pico right past the 12G into something like a 20+ gallon tank. I am back to looking for pico tanks if I am going to do this I want it to at least look nice. Something like a Fluval Spec 2.6 would run a pico like a boss right? https://youtu.be/rTnxSR4f5T0


Check this out for chits and giggles! Standing gumball machine reef with a sump in the stand! https://youtu.be/lI9ixB4e0Pc


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## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

Yes those will work nicely, the only trade-off is the topoff detail


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

I don't think a pico or a vase would be a good choice for a first SW system. It's not that you can't make an interesting system or that they do not work. They do, but they require a fairly delicate balance to be maintained, and there isn't too much margin for error.

Most beginners will make a few mistakes. This almost always occurs. By having a somewhat larger system you have some additional latitude if you do something wrong. An experienced person will know very quickly if something just is not right, and from their experience will do most things correct from the start. This tends to make these very small systems look easy. 

You need not get a monster system. It can be modest, but leave yourself some wiggle room for possible mistakes.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Topoff detail? You mean topoff needs to be more precise? 

DaveK - I get what you mean but I practiced with freshwater first, and frequent forum post (with a good community) should be able to help with keeping my tank right. 

After many more hours of research today I think I have decided on another tank, still sticking with the pico sized tank. Instead of the Fluval Spec 2.6G for the same exact price I can get a Marineland Portrait/Contour 5G which has the same footprint only it is taller without those aluminum corners, the corners are rounded glass which match my National Geographic tanks that have no corners and are bow-front. The biggest difference between the Spec and Marineland is the cover does not have an opening where the light shines through and it has 2 intakes (1 lower) so I assume it moves more water but will still skim protein from my surface? Looks like more people use this tank for pico SW setups and they actually ad fish to this tank being 5 gallons tall. The factory light actually grows coralline algae according to one person so I can at least cycle the tank for a few months with it as is. There is no room for a powerhead in one of these BUT I can always get a stronger pump and attach it to the built-in nozzle. https://youtu.be/ozX2SKOPgpc


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## Postal (Apr 8, 2012)

Teebo said:


> Checkout this link, this is a JBJ 12G with a clown playing in an anemone he even has a star fish! Is this an expert reefist and that is the only way this is possible?
> 
> https://youtu.be/VoeVeal71dM


Please do not use that tank as a basis for getting a tank that size and filling it with similar livestock. While I am new to planted tanks, I have a decade of reef keeping behind me including keeping all the hosting anemone species (except a mertensi carpet) and raising clownfish.
There are several issues with that tank. First, that toadstool in the front center will outgrow that tank in months given acceptable parameters. I know someone that upgraded from a 210 to a 300 because her toadstool was touching the front and back of the 210.
Also, the bubble tip (BTA) will likely outgrow the tank as well. Yes, they can split (either from stress or from growth), but even the ones that split often can easily get big enough to cover a good portion of a tank that size. And there are other bubble tips (as mentioned by Dave) that just keep growing and rarely split. I have seen BTA' s in the 18"-20" range. All the true carpets ( haddoni, gigantea, and mertens) are out becuase they get monstrous and will certainly eat fish in cramped quarters. Heteractis crispa (generically called sebae anemones) and lonf tentacle anemones (M. doreensis) will get way too big as well, and H. magnificas (ritteri) are possibly the largest of them all (in theory). The only host anemone reasonably appropriate for a tank in that range is Heteractis malu and even thwy will reach the 8" -10" range. They are usually lumped in with crispas as "sebae" anemones. You will have to learn to spot them since many LFS can't tell a crispa from a malu or a haddoni from a gigantea.
One suggestion is to forget about thw clownfish with host anemone and consider other types of anemones that will host different types of inverts. A tank that size would be great to put some rock flower anemones (E. crucifer) or mini-carpet anemones (S. tapetum). Both of these species stay smaller than the host anemones and are generally much hardier and often more colorful. You could then put porcelain crabs, sexy shrimp, or various other species of anemone shrimp in the tank to be hosted by the nems.
Just food for thought based on my experiences, and it should give you plenty to google!!


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Great feedback! I wonder if some of these people have other tanks that they move things into once they grow, or sell them back to the LFS? 

I will forget about hosting anems, but, since you know as much about clowns will a clown be comfortable without an anem in a 5 gallon tank??


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## Postal (Apr 8, 2012)

Clowns, especially tank-raised clowns, are fine without anemones. They will often be hosted by other corals or other items in a tank (including powerheads). However, the smallest clown species will still push 3" at maturity and I would consider it reasonably unethical to keep one in a tank that small. Can it be done? Sure. But should it done? That is a question only you can answer.
The only fish that quickly comes to mind for a tank that size is a clown goby (green or yellow). They stay small and often perch on coral or rock rather than being open water swimmers.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

How long do they take to reach maturity? If I had a better home for them after they mature and it took years I would consider it, but they are not a SW Betta fish. I understand the argument at hand, as I think it is unethical the way Bettas are kept and I gave one a 6 gallon riparium as a home. 

I am pretty stuck on this 5 gallon Marineland now, so I will research the list of fish that can ethically live in this space since the live rock will take up a lot of space in the center.


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

Teebo said:


> ...
> 
> DaveK - I get what you mean but I practiced with freshwater first, and frequent forum post (with a good community) should be able to help with keeping my tank right.
> ...


I don't agree with your statement. SW systems are a completely different ballpark, not necessarily harder but very different. If it's any consolation the same thing happens when you got from a SW system to a FW planted system. 

You'll find that you need to unlearn some things when you do SW systems. Here is one example.

In a FW planted tank you add ferts to get good plant growth. In a SW tank nitrates and phosphates are the enemy and you want to get them as low as possible. When I got involved with serious FW planted tanks, it was really tough to add nitrates and phosphates to the system.

Here is another.

In a FW tank a canister filter is highly desirable, and if money is no object often the filter system of choice. In a SW tank, canisters are usually not desirable because they can trap a lot of dirt, consume a lot of oxygen and throw off a lot of nitrates. SW people sometimes call a canister filter a "nitrate factory".

Bump:


Teebo said:


> How long do they take to reach maturity? If I had a better home for them after they mature and it took years I would consider it, but they are not a SW Betta fish. I understand the argument at hand, as I think it is unethical the way Bettas are kept and I gave one a 6 gallon riparium as a home.
> 
> I am pretty stuck on this 5 gallon Marineland now, so I will research the list of fish that can ethically live in this space since the live rock will take up a lot of space in the center.


Clowns can grow fairly large in less than a year. Like anything else it depends upon how much you feed it and how good an environment is maintained.

Typical stocking for a SW tank is about 1 inch of fish per 5 gal of water. Some people do go higher, but I'd not recommend it for someone just starting out. 

This works out to about one fish that is 1 inch long, like a clown gobie or a neon gobie.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Thank you, I will certainly stick to the rule of 1" per 5G sounds more humane to me, plus who wants to trade out a fish they get attached to! Here is the kicker I just ordered the Marineland 5 gallon tank so I really have to take this rule into consideration now. 

As to the reverses of SW, I am learning these things I can say I recently learned about the nitrates/phos but did not know about the canister situation. By the time I end up finishing the extended cycling process I will have a good chunk of research completed. I actually wanted to ask a question about nitrates with SW, why don't people have ANY plants in their reef tanks?? I know people grow algae in their sumps/refugium but aren't there plants that naturally grow on reefs? If so, some plants in a reef tank would be not only beneficial but more natural looking too?

I want to throw a couple other zingers out there haha, why don't people use an air pump with reef tanks? Or do they? I see another opposite is carbon is absolutely necessary with reefing as where I do not use it at all in my FW planted tanks?


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

The reason people don't have plants is SW systems is that most of them will not grow there. There are a few exceptions. Some people keep mangroves in the sump or refugium, but theses are trees, so you need to have a lot of space to let those grow outside the tank.

Another thing some people do is keep macro algaes in the tank or sump. Some of these displays can be quite striking. It comes down to what you want out of the tank and most reef people want corals. 

Air pumps are not generally used because of the high circulation rates maintained in a SW system. You just don't need anything else. In addition, the splash from SW really makes a mess and you get sat creep all over the place.

Carbon is controversial in SW systems. Some use it all the time, others once and awhile, and others not at all. If you do use it, you want a very high quality carbon. You'll also see references to other chemical media such as GFO (Granular Ferric Oxide). Yes, in effect it is rust, and used in SW as a phosphate remover.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Well since I only have a 5 gallon I will try to find some sort of seagrass/kelp or something to help if possible. I may modify the rear of the tank to hold plants like a SW riparium 

Do you think in a tank such as the one I have chosen an air pump would help if placed in the rear? The tank is not designed for saltwater so I am not sure how the flow will be. 

Yes I did hear about GFO I watched the BulkReefSupply chain-videos on setting up a beginner SW aquarium, lots of media reactors, I can't say I saw anyone with a nano setup using carbon or GFO since they are able to do a 50% weekly water change. 

Before I even think of being able to cycle this new tank I need salt, a SW test kit, refractometer, is SW bacteria solution any different then FW? I also need some sand and rock, from what I have gathered I will need 5 pounds of live rock? Maybe 6? 

I did some research on lighting and anything over around 7,200k is preference and from the extensive lighting research I have gathered for other reasons, I believe its closer to 10,000k is where it begins to become preference and I have a bunch of extra 10,000k lighting I can use I had it over various FW planted tanks. 12-20k just looks ridiculous imo.


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## aquahob11 (Jan 23, 2016)

Hey, your going to get a ton of varying opinions,suggestions and ideas. I can tell you just because I keep and maintain successful aquariums doesn't mean my methods and beliefs are the only way to go about it. Best advice I can give you is try and find 1 reputable source and follow it or make sure to really do a lot of reasearch on what people suggest before actually applying it. I have done aquariums for celebrities,movies and museum exhibits, of course businesses and residential locations too, doing it for 15 years (half my life) and I still learn something new every day. If anyone ever tells you they know it all then he or she is very, very confused.

Personally I do not think a small aquarium is a good start for a beginner but I absolutely understand the reasoning behind it.
It's definitely great that your doing your research but you will be researching forever, way longer then your going to want to wait to start your aqaurium. 

Unfortunately with Marine inhabitants mistakes tend to lead to diaster especially in a smaller aquarium. More than likely by the time you realize there is an issue it'll be too late to rectify it (specifically meaning saving all inhabitants).

In no means am I trying to steer you away, just trying to for warn you of what I can pretty much guarantee you'll run into but it's all part of the learning experience. Tale of the tape in marine aquariums is bigger is better (long as it's maintained properly from the start,if not it's a giant costly headache), the majority of inhabitants your going to keep are much less hearty when issues arise and all of the different equipment (skimmer,reactors,dosers,ato,water flow,ozone,uv sterilization etc) most of it really does play a big factor and role in the ease and health of the aquarium. Here are a few things I would highly, highly suggest,
-Rodi water is your best friend
-Use live sand
-Cured live rock.. you'll have to put a lot of work and time into curing the dry rock (99% of people cure this rock for months in a separate container with lots of maintenance). Honestly people tend to have really bad algae and diatom blooms with dry rock and in an aquarium that small it'll make your first marine aquarium experience not fun. Most people go the dry rock route because of good live rock being hard to get, price and hitchhikers but I wouldn't worry about any of those reasons since you need a very, very small amount of it. 
-Forget the air stone, if you want/need more flow you add a powerhead
- Spend $$$ on the right test kits (personally I use Salifert for most, Hannah digitals and red sea or la motte for a few specifics like potassium. Potassium isn't really Tested for unless you have sps corals which I would definitely steer you away from for now.

Best of luck!
Allen

Good luck!
Allen


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

aquahob11 said:


> Personally I do not think a small aquarium is a good start for a beginner but I absolutely understand the reasoning behind it.
> It's definitely great that your doing your research but you will be researching forever, way longer then your going to want to wait to start your aqaurium.
> 
> -Rodi water is your best friend
> ...


Thanks for your reply!

I will let it cycle for 3+ months if I have to, honestly I am more patient than you may think sometimes its the build and gathering of supplies that is just as fun as the finished product to me. I literally am 9 months in on a second high tech planted tank I still have not started, still gathering all proper hardware so patience will not be an issue. 

- I think I can buy distilled water but RODI probably will need to be bought, or I will need an RODI system eventually because I need that for top off and water changes. 

- I will buy live sand as long as there is less chances of hitch hikers than live rock?

- Should I dip some live rock?

- About more flow, I do not have room for a power head I was thinking I could add a secondary pump in the back there should be room, with a second nozzle in a different direction, I can run the pumps staggered to reverse and mix up the flow so everything is not under the stress of a one-way flow. 

- Should I not bother getting an API SW kit? All I use right now is API liquid kits on my FW tanks but I ordered a digital pH pen because the API pH test is a joke. 

Thanks so much!


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

Teebo said:


> Well since I only have a 5 gallon I will try to find some sort of seagrass/kelp or something to help if possible. I may modify the rear of the tank to hold plants like a SW riparium
> 
> Do you think in a tank such as the one I have chosen an air pump would help if placed in the rear? The tank is not designed for saltwater so I am not sure how the flow will be.
> 
> ...


Don't bother trying to keep any kind of SW macro algaes at this point. You'll just get yourself into trouble. Don't modify the tank to hold other stuff. You need all of the 5.5 gal you can get. 

Avoid the use of an airstone or air pump for reasons mentioned above. Yes you do have room for a small circulation pump. Here is an example - Hydor Pico Evo-Mag 4W Circulation Pump - 180 GPH

Personally, I never bother to use the packaged bacteria to seed a new tank. The live rock already has plenty. All you need to do is add a small piece of raw shrimp that you get from the seafood counter at your grocery store. A piece about the size of your little finger's nail should do it for a 5 gal tank.

5 lbs of LR should work fine. If you want to go with dry rock get 4 pounds of that and 1 pound of LR to seed it.

Get just enough sand to cover the bottom, so it looks nice. Another case of not wanting to loose any water volume. You want aragonite sand. Aragonite sand is almost a cuss word in planted tank area because it will generate a lot of hardness you usually don't want. In SW this is not an issue, so it's ideal.

Typical SW systems tend to be illuminated with light that would seem very blue to FW planted tank people. Lighting is about the debated area in the hobby, so you'll get a lot of different answers. My preference is lighting that is about 14,000K, but there is nothing wrong using the 10,000K light you plan. If your using T5's it's easy enough to change by swapping bulbs if you want something else. BTW SW systems tend to use a lot of light. What a planted tank person would consider to be very high light would rate as low to medium light on a SW reef.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

I'm not so much interested in macro algae, I was referring to a mangrove plant/tree, but I do love modifying things. It would look much cleaner if I could fit a secondary pump in the back with another jet nozzle, very easy mod and super clean looking. Let me say this, from a freshwater perspective I have a riparium (shower organizers along back of tank filled with hydroponic clay balls) the emerged plants I have planted in them use up so much nitrate that I have no nitrate readings! It got the the point I had to add nitrate to my take because my floating plants which depend on the water column started growing stunted bleached foliage. I went to my LFS today and they do sell mangrove plant/trees as pictured here in their refugium for $10. I am extremely determined to drill some holes in the rear sump cover of my 5 gallon lid, plop in some baskets and plant these! They not only look nice but help with nitrate removal between water changes...not sure if they consume phosphates? Also if a chunk of that heavy salt creep fell off into the tank wouldn't that drive the salinity up? They should scrape that off it might help the plants thrive?










Raw shrimp for ammonia? I was going to ask if I can use bio-media from an established freshwater tank to seed it? 


About the rock...now I am thinking about going all live rock and just dipping it all first. I can get it for $8/lb from my LFS in various stages of maturity, some red some not. Aside from that, they have rubble piles I took a few pictures. I am not sure if I can plant coral on any of this, I think its dead and hardened coral?? Some of the pieces may be unique for a tiny tank such as mine.


















There was this one piece that caught my eye but I think it is dead coral? The dark red is beneficial algae? The green is non-beneficial algae? Small piece for a small tank? 










About the sand I wanted that fine white tropical sand but I am afraid it will get blown around and displaced? I was not thinking about water displacement but you are right, I was more worried about it being a nutrient bed. 


The lighting I have is LED, they are standard screw bulbs with five 3W LEDs (15W bulbs) extremely bright and directional.










I struck up a convo with someone buying fish there, about my 5 gallon tank and he pointed out something that was there in front of us that he said could work, would not eat coral, and meet the 1" per gallon rule. It was a Six-Line Wrasse, cool looking fish!


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

Your going to find that the one or two mangroves you plant are not going to be that effective at nitrate removal. Don't get me wrong, it is possible to use mangroves to remove nitrates, but you need a system where you can allow them to develop an extensive root system. Keep in mind that a mangrove is a tree. It would be sort of like planting a maple tree in your riparium. As a note people do set up systems using mangroves and create a mangrove swamp environment. For some species of fish like mandarin gobies, it's almost a native system. If you want to do something like this, consider it for something in the future and do it in a much larger system where you can have extensive overhead lighting.

" I am extremely determined to drill some holes in the rear sump cover of my 5 gallon lid, plop in some baskets and plant these!" Not trying to beat up on you, but your letting that "FW planted tank mentality" interfere with setting up a reef system. First get the reef going by more or less standard means. Once you get there, then maybe consider doing this. Trying something this experimental when your new at reek keeping is going to get you into big trouble fast.

Salt creep falling off and going into the tank will not effect salinity too much. The danger is having it land on something your trying to keep and that direct contact killing it. As fot the salt on mangroves, what some people to is use FW to mist them down from time to time. The misting is simulating rain and washes the salt off.

What your looking at in the picts you posted is what is generally called live rock rubble. Yes, live rock is dead coral skeletons than have other stuff growing and living on it. You can use such pieces of live rock rubble in a tank, especially a small one. It is ideal for attaching corals. Here is an offsite like showing more or less the sort of pieces you want. Live Rock: Live Saltwater Aquarium Rock Note how they look sort of red or purple. That is coraline algae growing on it. Usually you want to avoid pieces with a lot of green algae on them. 

You can't use biomedia from a FW system to seed a reef. The SW will kill most of it. Live rock will contain plenty of bacteria to start. A handful of sand from an established SW tank will also work. You add the shrimp for an ammonia source. You actually can add almost anything you would use in FW as as an ammonia source, but the piece of raw shrimp is very easy and about fool proof.

That real nice looking fine white sand creates "sandstorms" in most systems. You want something with a grain size about 1/16 to 1/8 inch. That will stay put for you. You only want a pound or two. Note, they do sell live sand, but in a tank like this, you can use any good sand.

I don't see any problems with the lighting your planning. You may want to be able so you can raise or lower the fixture to control the amount of light going into the system. 

You want about 1 inch of fish per 5 gal in a SW system. A six line wrasse is more or less the right size, but it's a fast active swimmer. You usually would want a much larger tank for this fish. See the info on it on the LiveAquaira site (offsite) - Saltwater Aquarium Fish for Marine Aquariums: Six Line Wrasse - Reef Safe Wrasses

BTW, LiveAquaira is a good place to check out fish and other livestock you might be interested in, Their information is generally correct.

Lastly, I have been remiss in not recommending a book on reef systems. One very good one to start with is "The New Marine Aquarium" by Michael S. Paletta. While there is all the information on the net, it's a heap of stuff to get through, and there is a lot of questionable material on the net. You should be able to find the book new for under $15, but look for a used copy on Amazon, you should be able to pick it up for $4. (.01 for the book, 3.99 shipping).


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Thanks for the rear planter comments, I see how they would not be that effective right now certainly without a root system developed. I figured the tank is so small that their effect on nitrate removal would be at its highest, I know it is technically a tree but looks like it can easily be topped into something more bushy. I will try my hands without this for now, but I certainly will not forget it if this works out for me!

Thanks for the misting salt tip 

Awesome, I have a useful rubble pile then. I saw some pico ideas with people using magnets attached to rubble and they can move them anywhere they want on the glass like shelves. This may not be a good idea though once they are used to a spot to move them I would assume. 

Using non-live sand will be much easier for me, and if I have access to all this matured live rock I don't see it being an issue either. 

Hmm, it just happened to be a fish in front of us but I appreciate your feedback on it. Whatever fish I choose, if I even put a fish in this tank, I want it to be as colorful as possible. I saw an amazing Mandarin Goby but I know there is no way I can do that...what a colorful fish!!!

The problem I have with books (and the reason I love forums so much) is I learn so much better as I go, within reason being humane in this hobby, too much pre-learning becomes a chore. People such as yourself, are absolutely priceless help to me. I can not thank you enough for your thoural replies.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

It seems like some people have coral that literally glows as if under a black light, is 20,000k lighting needed for this or just blue LEDs? Blacklight? I would rather combine something like a blacklight with 10,000k lighting to get that effect. 

Can anyone tell me is distilled water will be okay to use in my pico? I can buy distilled water by the gallon from the grocery store but not RODI.



aquahob11 said:


> Spend $$$ on the right test kits (personally I use Salifert for most, Hannah digitals and red sea or la motte for a few specifics like potassium. Potassium isn't really Tested for unless you have sps corals which I would definitely steer you away from for now.


I can use my freshwater API test kit with my reef tank right? I heard the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate formulas are the same its just a difference in color chart for I think pH which I wont be using anyway (digital pH meter) just seems much easier if I do not need to buy a second liquid test kit since I use them for freshwater so much. I will get a refractometer, and something to test potassium since my API test does not cover it? Do you have digital tests for everything?
-Salinity
-Ammonia
-Nitrite
-Nitrate
-pH
-Eventually Potassium 

^ Did I miss anything here? 

How much better are the expensive Hanna pH meters than the cheap $10 units you can buy on eBay that come with a free TDS meter? Will a cheap pH meter at least be much better than an API liquid test? 

API vs Salifert??

I saw a few people aquascape in a pico using caulerpa or even macroalgae....just a nitrate thought from research.


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## Chibils (Nov 18, 2007)

Teebo said:


> It seems like some people have coral that literally glows as if under a black light, is 20,000k lighting needed for this or just blue LEDs? Blacklight? I would rather combine something like a blacklight with 10,000k lighting to get that effect.
> 
> Can anyone tell me is distilled water will be okay to use in my pico? I can buy distilled water by the gallon from the grocery store but not RODI.
> 
> ...


It's not needed, but people generally see better colors from light with more blue and purple in it. That color spectrum (referred to as "20K" for the Windex blue or "actinic" for the black light effect) makes fluorescent colors in the corals appear. It's not really like using a black light to make the corals appear fluorescent - there are actually fluorescent pigments in the coral and "actinic" lights make them more visible. Does that make sense? Dunno if I explained that right.

If you're looking at sales ads for corals, both online vendors and regular hobbiests have been known to Photoshop the pictures to make the colors more vivid. They also may take the pictures under an actinic light only to make them look more colorful. Maybe you're seeing the blue light there. A common thing is to have a "sunrise" and "sunset" cycle where actinics are the first lights on and the last one off, with whiter lights being on most of the day. This is to simulate the way oceans look in low light, or as you go deeper (red, green get filtered out faster than blue, which is why deeper waters look blue-ish).

Most people combine an actinic light with one or more "10K" looking bulbs for a light that's in the 12K to 15K most of the time.

Distilled water should be fine. Just look for one that has no salts or electrolytes added - Dasani and many other bottle/jug water have salts added for flavor and other reasons. You want pure distilled water. Lots of nano and pico reef people use it. Also - if you have a fish store nearby, it seems most of them sell RO/DI for like 50c per gallon. Might be worth it if distilled isn't working out.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Thanks for the explanation, I just wanted the fluorescent colors to pop without the ugly blue color. Your explanation helped a lot! 

I will give the distilled a shot, at 80 cents a gallon its more expensive than RODI water from my LFS most likely but much closer to my home.


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## Postal (Apr 8, 2012)

I just don't understand the fascination with squeezing a saltwater fish into a 5g reef tank, especially with the poor dimensions of the tank you selected. And someone recommending a six-line wrasse for that tank is just simply ridiculous. No wrasse should ever go in a tank that size.
It's odd to me that the with your very limited knowledge of reef tanks and no experience that you are trying to do things that even experienced reefkeepers struggle to odo successfully. But then again my goal in keeping these animals is to give them the best circumstances possible to thrive versus just seeing if I can keep them alive in less than acceptable circumstances simply because I want to own them.
If that tank (or one like it) is an absolute, then you should concentrate your efforts on what can realistically be kept in a tank that size rather than tryng to squeeze in your desired livestock into a tank that in no way meets their needs.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Honestly I may not use a fish, if you understand my approach I don't want to "squeeze" anything I am a very fair and humane person. I have stated this several times in this thread. Read more thoroughly...


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## Chibils (Nov 18, 2007)

A lot of people run something like a "12K" or "14K" color, which is like a blue-ish white. Still white, but enough blue that the colors start to show. Too little blue (7500K-10,000K) and it looks washed out and kinda brown. Too blue (20,000K) and it looks like neon lights, lol. This is all personal preference and varies with the trends in lighting. When metal halides were the cadillac of lighting, you saw a lot of 6500K, 10 000K, 12 000K. The emergence of 20 000K lamps was a big deal, and people complained about the look back then too. People weren't used to seeing it. In 2006 when I got in, people ran Reeflux 12K, Phoenix 14K, etc. That was the popular color. It transitioned from the warm white to blue-ish white. The yellow-white was kind of the natural tone for halides.

The natural tone for LEDs is blue and green. It's easier to make a bright blue LED than a bright yellow or white LED in the same way that yellow is the "natural" color tone of halides. So people started using LEDs as blue and actinic supplements to really see the fluorescent pop. Then you could use them for sunrise and sunset lighting (blue). Then came brighter red, white, and green LEDs which allowed the production of full spectrum LED fixtures for reef use. This, IMO, is how people became "used to" the deep blue LED look. It's odd to see a 10K color nowadays, whereas before it was fairly common.

In short, there's no right or wrong with light fixture colors. If it grows coral and you like the color of the light, then it's good.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

My tank just came in! Now that I have it in front of me and I can get a better feeling for the size...I most likely will not find a fish that is comfortable in here after I add the live rock. Snail, shrimp, maybe a crab? That will be about it, I think the 15W 10K bulbs I have are much brighter than this stock light. I can always add some blue around it or something. 

Now that I can get my hands on the filter section I see it is much better designed than the Fluval Spec, no need to use an In-Tank media basket with this design. I will ditch the sponge as I have plenty of bio with the rock and use that space for a media bag. The cartridge with the carbon I will rip apart so I can reuse the basket frame, I will only use that part for filter floss and I may not even run any carbon in this tank. Certainly enough room for a second pump as well back there.


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## Chibils (Nov 18, 2007)

Congrats! You're off to a good start.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

Teebo said:


> ...
> The problem I have with books (and the reason I love forums so much) is I learn so much better as I go, within reason being humane in this hobby, too much pre-learning becomes a chore. People such as yourself, are absolutely priceless help to me. I can not thank you enough for your thoural replies.





Teebo said:


> ...
> I can use my freshwater API test kit with my reef tank right? I heard the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate formulas are the same its just a difference in color chart for I think pH which I wont be using anyway (digital pH meter) just seems much easier if I do not need to buy a second liquid test kit since I use them for freshwater so much. I will get a refractometer, and something to test potassium since my API test does not cover it? Do you have digital tests for everything?
> -Salinity
> -Ammonia
> ...


I highly recommend spending the $4 on a used copy of the book I mentioned, "The New Marine Aquarium" by Michael S. Paletta. It will be the best $4 you could spend. 

It's nice to get information from the net, but there is a lot of background information you should know too. You don't want to crash your system because you forgot to ask about something that is considered common knowledge by reef people. 

I'm not a big fan of API test kits. On the aquarium grade test kits I tend to like Sailfret and SeaChem. LaMotte and Hach make lab grade test kits, but cost a bundle. You don't need that in most cases. 

One important note about SW testing. May test are going to be dependent on your SG. If SG is off it will skew other test results, so make sure that is correct before you start testing away.

Whatever you do use the testing only as a guide. Do not chase numbers trying to get everything "just right". You'll do a lot more harm than good. If your livestock is looking good, only change water parameters after careful consideration. 

For a SW reef system you may be interested in the following additional test kits.
KH or Alkalinity
Calcium
Magnesium
Phosphate

There are a host of other test kits you can get, but only consider them if you have a specific problem you need to deal with. There is no reason to test potassium in SW.

Chibils gave you some excellent advice on lighting. I agree with most all of it.

Caulerpa can become a nuisance algae in SW. It does grow really fast though. It has one bad habit of "going sexual" on you. This is the algae reproductive phase, when it turns almost transparent and releases a mess of spores. This can really mess up a tank bad, if your not looking out for it. Here is a link to an article on this (offsite) - A Warning Sign of Impending Caulerpa Sporulation by Gene Schwartz - Reefkeeping.com

BTW, some species of Caulerpa are considered noxious weeds and it's not legal to own them in some places. Be sure of local regs before you order any online.

Probably the most common algae used for nitrate control is Chaetomorpha. It looks almost like a ball of green hair algae with thicker strands. If your use to wanting to keep FW algaes out of your planted tank, it's going to take a lot of strength of character to add Chaetomorpha to your SW tank.

There are algaes you can use that are decorative, but wait awile before you try them. Some are not easy to keep.

SW algaes don't like changes in water conditions, make your water changes carefully


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## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

To me, this covers every aspect of reef cycling and how you start.

New tank cycling, tank bacteria, and cocktail shrimp. Live rock=no shrimp | REEF2REEF Saltwater and Reef Aquarium Forum

It's nice of planted tank to let us chat nano reef and not move it into the basement anoxic zone  free info exchange in a comfortable forum is ideal


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

I will order one off eBay, will make a good bathroom reader! I agree with crashing the tank. 

I want to consolidate test kits, preferably sticking with a few brands. What makes Sailfret so imperior to API? SG? Salinity Grade?

I will use the same test kit for FW & SW for some things such as ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. The same pH meter can be used as well as the same TDS. You say KH OR Alkalinity? I already have an API KH test kit but from my research I should test for alkalinity rather than KH? Alkalinity also seems like the single most important/frequent test in SW. Another thing I read is do not bother testing for phosphates if I do not have a nitrate problem? If there is enough reason to switch from API to Sailfret then I will use their tests for Calcium & Magnesium so that they match my ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate tests. 

I understand why you add micro-algae though, and it stays isolated like Marimo Moss balls which I think are just an isolated form of algae too? I have seen hair algae balls in ponds that stay in a ball, the pond is not green but these balls stay isolated. 

After getting my tank today I realized in person, there is no way I can expect to keep a micro-algae in the back by mounting a flush light against the glass. I would rather use a Mangrove plant, and keep the space for a second pump. I live about 2 hours from Maines shore or less if I was to go to Boston, if I were to find some sea plants I could grow them in my tank right? Either below the water line in the front or above the water line in the back, the salinity of our tanks is the same as the eastern shore sea right?

I need to find a heater that will fit in the rear of this tank now...are SW heaters the same as FW or are they built to withstand SW? I use a little self set Tetra heater in my mini riparium and it works fine for a "Tetra" but is set to 78F. I do not mind buying a nicer heater I just need it to fit in the back and be as small as possible.


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

Since you already have the API test kits you can give them a try. Don't be afraid to replace them if you have issues. My personal experience with API is that sometimes they just don't work. I suspect that this may be because they are old, or sitting in the LFS for too long. My experience with Sailfret test kits is much better. This might be just me.

Just about any pH meter will work, but you may want to calibrate it differently for SW. TDS is not needed because SE has so much TDS already in it.

You should test for nitrates and phosphates. It's real easy to have one with out the other. Another thing with testing for nitrate and phosphates is that even if the test kits read 0, you may still have a problem with nitrates and phosphates in a reef system. Algae can consume a massive amount of nitrates and phosphates leaving you a mass of unwanted algae, and 0 readings. Some people take advantage of this and install an algae scrubber on their system, but to some extent you need to make sure the algae growth stays in the algae scrubber and not in the rest of the system.

Calcium, magnesium, alkalinity and pH are closely interrelated in a SW system. Changing one can modify the others. Here is a great article on the subject (offsite) - Chemistry And The Aquarium: Solving Calcium And Alkalinity Problems ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog The article really gets into the subject, so if it's a bit too much to take in at this point, don't worry about it. Bookmark it and come back to it later. 

Most of the algaes you want to keep are macro algaes and look more like plants. I would avoid using algaes collected in the Boston area north. These are cold water algaes. They can be kept, but you need to set up special for them because of the cold water requirements. The summer water temp in that area is only about 55, far under the 78 or so you keep a tropical reef at.

If you are going to collect locally, measure the SG at the collection site. Water may have a SG quite a bit below the 1.025 you keep in a tropical reef. This is due to dilution from streams and rivers. Also, check local laws. I don't think algaes would be a problem, but anything that is harvested commercially definitely is a big issue.

Heaters for SW are the same. Nothing different. All the FW stuff applies here.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Maybe my experience has been better due to my bottle shaking rituals and the fact I buy my kits online from a vendor that keeps them moving so the expiration dates are always several years out. The only thing I buy from the LFS is livestock and sometimes plants. 

The TDS was for my pre-mix water to make sure it is at 0 before I mix in my salt. 

I wonder if that is why my FW snails keep dying, I have 0 nitrates but maybe I have phosphates... the tank is heavily planted. 

If I was to collect anything locally it would be some type of seagrass if I could find it rather than an algae, I would love a SW jungle val haha. 

Thanks again! 

My tank did come in yesterday, this is it...since I am in no rush I may end up starting with dry-rock because I have the challenge of finding/shaping a tall live rock column, the live rock aquascaping is not to be rushed imo with such a limited space.


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## Chibils (Nov 18, 2007)

Dry rock is great for this kind of stuff. Look at pictures, try to imagine what you want, and then take a hammer and chisel to some rock until it looks right! Also I have been watching this series recently as it really interested me: the "BRS160" 52 Weeks of Reefing by BRStv on YouTube. They cover a lot of "newbie" topics but also go into a lot of detail.

Edit: Salifert tests are generally preferred because they use better reagents with more accurate results.

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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

I've seen all sorts of BRS-TV series, I have seen some of the one you mentioned I love watching that guys pony tail get shorter as the videos become newer haha. 

At $7/lb. for live rock its not too bad I may let it dry out for that price and start-over. Buy 7 pounds and use 5ish, I am really unsure what I want because I need to find out what I shouldn't do because of water flow reasons such as, place it flat against the rear wall, etc. 

At the LFS today I saw a new SW plant, not sure if it is an algae but Halameda?


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## Chibils (Nov 18, 2007)

Effectively all saltwater plants you see are gonna be algae, although there's a difference between nuisance algae and macroalgae. Macros are more like aquatic plants, and halimeda is a macroalgae. You can use it in your tank without too much fear that it won't over run your tank.

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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

I suppose this is going to come down to how well I can control my P & N levels, I assume the Chemi-Pure Blue will take care of my problems. If I do add something I guess how effective it is plays a role in choices, as well as the nuisance factor. 

Micro-algae Vs. Mangrove-tree - keeping in mind it is a pico, there is not much room for submerged algae...so if a Mangrove is as effective as a _very small_ batch of algae I may choose the tree. 

I heard of Chemi-Pure Blue _Nano_, I assume the bags are just smaller. I think most people run it for about 4 months before changing it, but in my pico I can always use my own media bag and cut their open. Then use it as needed....a single canister of CHemi-Pure Blue would last me an entire year if I did this.


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

This is my opinion, and not hard advice. I consider mixed media such as Chemi-Pure blue to be an almost complete waste of money in SW systems. Ion exchange resins don't do much in SW systems because the various salts in the water quickly saturate the media.

Now I know there are people that swear by the various Chemi-Pure products, but I feel your much better off getting bulk media from a supplier such as bulk reef supply, and making your own mix. You only get the media you need. Many people don't run any chemical media at all. I usually use carbon and GFO, both as needed.

Also a tank as small as your planning, you often don't need any chemical media at all. A 2 1/2 gal water change is 50% of the tank volume. You can easily keep up with things with out a lot of expensive media, or even a skimmer. Now if we were talking about a 30 gal tank or larger, this would be a different story.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Thanks man, basically does chemical media save people money on salt by not having to do massive water changes? Kinda seems like it, which brings me to my next point. Red Sea Coral Pro is $40 for 55 gallons worth, that is almost $1.50 per gallon for salt so a weekly 50% water change would cost about $5 ($2 in water and $3 in salt). I can buy 5 bags of Chemi-Pure Blue Nano for $12 not sure how long each of the 5 bags would last but that is something to consider if it would drop my water change needs to 20% or so. Maybe its just another thing to worry about for the same cost of fresh salt water. 

Not that I am anywhere near ready to even think about adding inverts, etc, but I wanted to touch on this as I was at the LFS again today. Since I decided on a no-fish approach I do want to add as many living things as comfortably able to. Lets start knowing things off the list, remember 5 gallons...
-I saw spiky black urchins but they look like they get wayy too big. Are there any dwarfed urchins? 
-Seemed like there were 2 types of shrimp, cleaner shrimp and these others with big claws, they were still red and white like the cleaners but the white was true white not the yellowy off-white the cleaners are. Not sure if they eat coral but they seem like they could eat anything I put in the tank if I wanted and their claws seem far too large to be effective at eating algae. 
-Starfish? Any small starfish I can keep?
-I did not see any but, sea slugs look pretty colorful on Google...and they are small! Do they eat algae?
-Hermit crabs! There are all sort of types, I know they kill snails though. I saw some tiny ones with red feet that seemed cool. 
-Of course snails, many options to choose from here which will be where I expand the most. From a FW standpoint Nerites are obviously the best not only are they the most colorful but the most effective at eating algae, then Mystery/Apple snails which do eat algae but less of it and are less attractive (except for the Pearl snail I like keeping one of those in every tank for contrast). MTS I do not use because I do not like my substrate being messed with (gravel topped dirt) but in a snail aquarium they would be great. So, can you help me start somewhere with SW snails? I only saw a few types at the LFS no idea what they eat, but there was a bumpy colorful looking one in almost every tank. 

I have some preference/order in which of these I would keep and why to help with your suggestions; algae eating capability and color diversity. If something is really colorful and worth keeping to look at I would like it...but if there is something that is extremely good at eating algae but dull I suppose it does not matter having one of whatever it may be could help but my intention here is not to clean my tank for me. Also I do not plan on adding everything at once, I will progress the same way people slowly add a bio-load of fish to their system.


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## Chibils (Nov 18, 2007)

Teebo said:


> Thanks man, basically does chemical media save people money on salt by not having to do massive water changes? Kinda seems like it, which brings me to my next point. Red Sea Coral Pro is $40 for 55 gallons worth, that is almost $1.50 per gallon for salt so a weekly 50% water change would cost about $5 ($2 in water and $3 in salt). I can buy 5 bags of Chemi-Pure Blue Nano for $12 not sure how long each of the 5 bags would last but that is something to consider if it would drop my water change needs to 20% or so. Maybe its just another thing to worry about for the same cost of fresh salt water.
> -I saw spiky black urchins but they look like they get wayy too big. Are there any dwarfed urchins?
> -Seemed like there were 2 types of shrimp, cleaner shrimp and these others with big claws, they were still red and white like the cleaners but the white was true white not the yellowy off-white the cleaners are. Not sure if they eat coral but they seem like they could eat anything I put in the tank if I wanted and their claws seem far too large to be effective at eating algae.
> -Starfish? Any small starfish I can keep?
> ...


I wouldn't bother with anything but carbon and (as needed, if algae or phos are issues) GFO. You shouldn't worry too much about water changes - they are mostly nutrient export and element replacement (cal/alk/mag and trace) which shouldn't be in too high demand in your tank. Many experienced reefers do *no[/] water changes at all and use only aggressive filtration (skimmer + mechanical and chemical such as filter socks and carbon) and dosing to maintain water quality.

Water changes will be an as-needed kind of thing. It's something you'll have to figure out as you go, since skimmers and filter socks aren't an option. It's pretty different from FW where many people do 50-75% WCs weekly to maintain water quality.

- urchins can be destructive in such a small tank. They will mow down coralline (the red, pink, etc. stuff that encrusts onto live rock) as well as cover themselves in shells, rubble, and other small items. They can be good inhabitants in bigger tanks, but can kinda overrun smaller ones.
- there are many kinds of shrimp, but Lysmata shrimps (like the red cleaner shrimp you saw, or a fire shrimp Lysmata debelius) are very common. They could do well in your tank, as they tend to find a corner or a cave where they set up shop and rarely wander around so much. The other kind you saw was probably a coral banded shrimp. They need a larger aquarium and may nip at corals and the like looking for food. I wouldn't recommend one for your tank.

There are lots of other shrimp though - sexy shrimp are commonly kept in 5G tanks and are funny little critters. They will host an anemone like clownfish do, but you don't have to have one to keep the shrimp. There are also harlequin shrimp, which eat exclusively live starfish. The stars can be picked up from the LFS, but this might be costly or logistically difficult for you. I probably wouldn't recommend one for a first tank, but it can be done. 
Another option is a pompom crab. They carry tiny anemones in their claws to ward off predators and collect food. I haven't kept them, or sexy shrimp, or harlequin shrimp, but they're all fairly common pico reef inhabitants.
- starfish are a good option. Asterina stars are a favorite of mine, often called a pest because they multiply like crazy but I think they're neat. You mostly seem them around 1/2 inch in size, cleaning your glass and rocks at night. They're harmless cleaners, and you may get some as hitchhikers on live rock. I can't think of any other good starfish, but I'm sure they're out there.
- I'm a big fan of hermits. Everyone says bad things about them, and yeah they killed a couple of my snails, but for the most part they did a better job cleaning the rocks too. They weren't agressive and were neat looking. It may be because I kept Astraeas and the crabs didn't like their shells, but it wasn't an issue for me.
- I have never kept them, but Eviota gobies and Trimma gobies stay less than an inch in size and may be appropriate for your tank. Do some research on this.

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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Awesome! Sounds like I will save some money in salt and chemicals, I will just monitor my water closely and see what kind of actions need to be taken. I may keep some Chemi-Pure on hand though in case chit does hit the fan I will not have time to order and wait for delivery. Although it really does sound more and more liek if chit did hit the fan all I need to do is a WC. 

Yup that was a coral banded shrimp I just looked it up! I guess even Lysmata shrimps are considered too big for my tank, and I am being suggested Thor amboinensis, the sexy anemone shrimp. Along with possibly camel shrimp?

I do not have room for an anemone that I know of, but that would be a cool feature for one to host a shrimp!

So wait, will the Harlequin shrimp eat Asterina stars? If so then that could be a self sustaining food supply for them right? I think they look really cool but the thought of needing LFS live food for a pico is not appealing lol. EDIT: See video
https://youtu.be/jXEQycMjX6w

I have been told hermits are a 50/50 with eating corals, so I will have to do some research. I was told to stay away from red leg hermits but those are my favorite.


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## Chibils (Nov 18, 2007)

Camel shrimp are not reef safe! If you keep soft corals in that tank, camel shrimp may eat them!! If you want something that looks like one, peppermint shrimp are almost the same.

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## Chibils (Nov 18, 2007)

Also, I wouldn't trust it to be a self sustaining population in a 5G tank. I agree buying live food for the shrimp is not ideal. 

I've never heard of dwarf hermits eating corals, but I'm sure it's out there.

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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

Chibils gave you some good advice. I disagree only on the Asterina stars, which I consider to be a pest, and undesirable.

For water changes typically you should change about 10% a week or 25% a month for a SW reef. You may not even need to change it this often. While there are people that make few water changes in SW systems, I'd say most use the schedule I mentioned. 

On sea slugs, or nudibranchs - they are among the most colorful inverts you'll see, but most of them are extremely difficult to keep due to their feeding requirements. Some will eat only one other species, or eat corals. One of the few exceptions is the lettuce nudibranch, which does eat algae. You sometimes see them offered for sale, but they are not as colorful as some of the others.

For snails in a reef I prefer a few of several different species. Margarita, Cerith, Nassarius, and Trochus are all good. The Turbo snails are good in a large tank, but get too big for your system.

While you don't want a large anemone, you can keep the Zoanthid anemones. Sometimes you'll see thes reffered to as zoas or zoos. They are small colonial anemones. Some can be very colorful and expensive, but some nice ones are very reasonable. One very important warning about Zoanthids belonging to the genus Palythoa. They can contain Palytoxin, which can be serious and even deadly. Handle these species with rubber cloves. Here is an article on the subject (offsite) - https://www.bluezooaquatics.com/resources.asp?show=16


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## Chibils (Nov 18, 2007)

Thanks for jumping in DaveK. This is all just my experience and knowledge so I think adding second or third opinions is of great value in a hobby where most of the success comes from trial, error, and theory rather than understood concepts.

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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Do not forget this is a pico without skimmer so I figured the water changes made up for that fact. 

Why does everything eat coral haha this kinda sucks. 

Shrimp:
-Thor amboinensis
-Peppermint 

Yes I think those were Turbo Snails I saw at the LFS some were really massive! 

Snails:
-Margarita
-Cerith, 
-Nassarius
-Trochus

I did see a video about Zeos and how someone ended up in the hospital by inhaling the fumes given off by using hot water with them or something for some reason. Does anything host them?

This person has the same idea I had with the Mangrove trees I like the way it looks...this tank is half the size of mine though:










This is the sort of thing I will probably end up doing to make a good shape live rock, they glued many pieces together:


















I also found this which I like, with a light bulb shape rock I can maximize my ground coverage space but I have to keep it centered to look right I think. However this is not so natural looking I don't think, do you?


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## Chibils (Nov 18, 2007)

A lot of people say turbos don't live long because they come from subtropical waters. There are Mexican turbos which are tropical and do fine at 76-80 but it's hard to know what you're getting. Same with margarita snails, I think they're subtropical too. 

Zoas can be dangerous, but as long as you're aware of it and take normal precautions (like not boiling them off a rock) you should be fine. I think 99% of reefers have kept zoanthids at some point and only a small fraction had to deal with palytoxin.

Mangroves would be no issue, but don't expect them to consume high levels of nutrients. There will be some uptake, but it will be small. They're slow growers.

And that's a good rock idea. Visualize what you want and use a hammer and chisel to shape the pieces. Glue or epoxy them together for safety. If you do it right, it'll all be covered in coral anyway and you won't see the rocks.

I dont think either of them is natural looking, but the first one is better. 
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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

You are correct, in small SW tanks a skimmer is not needed. If we were talking about a larger tank 30 - 40 gal or larger, a skimmer would be highly desirable. 

A lot of inverts might live on and around zoas, but they don't usually host on them. You do have some fish and inverts that eat them. Not all zoas have toxins in them. I once had a batfish (Platax) devour a large colony of zoas. You just never know.

When your building an aquascape for a SW reef, you usually want the most places you can get for attaching corals. Note how the tank with the mangroves does it. The other tanks don't really do this well. Light is everything to corals, and you don't usually want to block that too much.

When you build structures you generally want to make them out of as few pieces of as possible. At the same time, you want to be able to remove pieces of structure at times for maintenance. Don't try to make one massive piece, it will be a pain to work with.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

I am being told to avoid margarita snails on another forum because they are a somewhat cooler water snail. 

Would it be too much to have all 3? Fire, Peppermint, and Sexy shrimp?

I will deff get a PomPom Crab, and I was recommended a Pederson anemone shrimp??

With the Mangroves, are they slow uptakers or do they do little in comparison to their water volume? This may make a bigger difference if its more about the water volume they have to deal with?

I heard once anything in your tank gets a taste for coral its game over, they need to be removed ASAP or they will eat your tank that goes for fish and inverts. 

I can see how the second tank blocks light to the lower corals with the light bulb shape, I thought about going with more light then necessary then using a diffuser so they get a lot of light from the water itself and not direct light. BRS-TV covered this subject and how that mostly coral gets filtered and diffused light rather than direct sunlight. 

I just find it so challenging to make a tall rock without using really small pieces, I will keep this in mind and try to make it disassemblable. Maybe I can find three 4lb rocks and smash them up until they are a tall stackable shape. I do not want to stack anything against the glass, possibly against the backwall I am not sure I think that would make cleaning the rear wall difficult. If you look at my tank you can see I have a lower intake opening that takes the majority of the water in at my halfway line on the right (with a skimmer at the top). I am thinking blocking that area on the right with some rock, okay not blocking it but just placing the taller section on the right it will force the water to hit the corals and split around the rock to get to the rear which would increase water flow over them?


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

If your really worried about margarita snails, leave them out. I've never had any problems with them.

You'd be asking way to much of such a small tank if you put all 3 shrimp in it. I'd pick one and stick with that, or maybe a small pair of banded coral shrimp.

Mangroves are going to do next to nothing in a system your size. It's for both reasons, slow growing and slow take up of nutrients. I suggest you google mangrove refugiums and see what size they then to be when they are actually being used for nutrient export. All these small one with only a few plants are more so the owner can say they have mangroves. They really don't add much to the system.

You don't want a structure that tall. Remember those corals you add are going to grow. This is especially true of soft corals. Keep the structure about 2/3 the height of the tank. You don't want the structure leaning on the glass, but it's ok to build close to it. You really don't need to clean the back glass, and this makes a good home for desirable algaes and and other stuff. 

With SW systems, you usually want a lot of circulation, but this need not come from the filtration system. Add a small circulation pump, like i mentioned previously. It will be one of the best investments you can make, and it will provide some backup to circulation in case the pump on the filtration system fails.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

I have to say after Googling the Mangrove Refugiums it makes me want a big system just for that! I would have a Mangrove on display as part of my system and a big one because I love ripariums, too bad there are not more SW plants that can be used in hangers on a large system. 

Okay I will take this circulation pump seriously but I honestly would rather take the time to mod one into the back. If I upgraded my stock pump to a 606 I could use the stock one as a secondary OR the other way around which may make more sense. That be keep the system as is but ADD a 606 mini-jet pump to the rear and plumb it to a secondary nozzle, either way they will both pull from the same spot so it shouldn't matter however this may speed up my filtering too much and pull small debris through my mechanical filter? The tank is just so small even the smallest powerhead looks ugly, if I drilled a hole on the clean side of my sump somewhere by the pumps it would help slow the flow rate going through my mechanical filter though...meh


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

*Change in plans, before even starting I decided to return that tank and go in another direction more long-term to be able to keep the things I want. I am almost finished gathering everything I need to start a high-tech planted tank, I just need my in-line heater and CO2 valve. I have a CO2 reactor, SunSun canister with an upgraded Eco-396 pump, and a UV sterilizer. The tank is a National Geographic 15.8 gallon bowfront.* 


















*In the meantime I have had a growing riparium that I am having fun with and running out of space for more plants. It is a National Geographic 8.5 gallon bowfront, I could double my size if I used the 15.8 gallon. The idea was to have a low-tech "Jungle Style" tank with driftwood and leaf plants being this riparium...then have a "Japanese Style" tank with just rocks, carpeting plants, mosses, and grasses with open spaces using small schooling fish. I will have to combine them eventually and just keep one freshwater tank; a high-tech riparium. At least this way I can stop using Excel daily if I transferred the entire external system to my riparium, CO2-UV and all in-line hardware.*










*To replace the 15.8 I started looking at slightly larger new tanks, I ended up finding this SeaClear 36 gallon bowfront acrylic tank that fits the stand I was using perfectly. That is when I thought about going saltwater again after just backing out of the pico idea. If I went through with my freshwater tank merge I will have a spare glass 8.5 gallon bowfront that I would really like to use as a sump/refugium for the 36 gallon reef.*










*I happen to have a spare 8.5 gallon for this photo that I am selling, this would be the plan BUT instead of the 15.8 gallon on top in this photo it would be the 36 gallon tank. I would divide the 8.5 gallon sump tank the long way so I can square the back off and have a bowfront display on the sump. I would use the shallow front bow section for microalgae, anything alive that may help the sump such as inverts/fish, I would repopulate my pods in the sump and hide the equipment in the rear using a wall of mangrove trees along the divider. Heater, mechanical filtration, skimmer, etc will go in the rear I can even use hang on units such as a skimmer as long as none of this is seen in my display tank above. Ultimately with 36 gallons in the long term after it is established I want a pair of trained Mandarin Gobies, the key will be pods in the pump and trained to eat prepared foods. Not sure if I can keep a pair of Clown Fish with the Mandarins, and an Anemone all in a 36 gallon?*


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## Chibils (Nov 18, 2007)

Oh man! I was just wondering what ever became of the Tiny Teebo Tank of Corals.

Sad to hear it's gone but the new set up you're starting looks great! 👍 I think the bottom bowfront will work great as a sump, but I'm not confident on keeping mandarins in such a small tank. I would ask some others about that as I'm not comfortable recommending it...

If you decide against mandarins, the sump would work great divided in two as skimmer section | return section. Heater and reactors (carbon, etc) can be added. What are the dimensions of the 8.5?

GL!

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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

I did actually decide last minute to keep that Contour 5 tank BUT for my Betta so I can get him out of the riparium. I want a community riparium and this way I can move all my leaf plants into the Contour 5 with my Betta (that will be a mini low-tech) then I can pursue the 'Japanese Style' with my riparium. 

That 8.5 gallon tank for the sump is 20" long and 12" tall/deep, it is 10" wide in the center of the bowfront. By the time I square off the rear the long way I will end up with an area 20" long x 5" wide, I can go 6" if I need to.


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## Chibils (Nov 18, 2007)

If you keep it 20 x 10 you can fit a number of skimmers in there that I think will do a lot more for you than a refugium that small.

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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

I will likely use a large HOB skimmer on the sump, 10" is only the peak of the bow, it drops to about 8" on the sides.


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## Chibils (Nov 18, 2007)

Got it. IMO most HOB skimmers are pretty worthless, but I'm just one opinion. Lots of people rock them and have great tanks. 

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