# Tank cycling question



## greaser84 (Feb 2, 2014)

Yes it is normal. You did what is called "seeding" an aquarium. You took gravel that already had beneficial bacteria on it from the old tank and placed it in the new tank, and that bacteria immediately began to process the ammonia you added. I do the same thing when I start a new tank but I use old filter media. I take old filter media from all my tanks and place it in the new one.


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## ptom (Jul 3, 2014)

Thanks - the gravel was in another aquarium, but it was several years ago! Interesting anything survived there


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## greaser84 (Feb 2, 2014)

ptom said:


> Thanks - the gravel was in another aquarium, but it was several years ago! Interesting anything survived there
> 
> 
> P


The gravel was dry? I thought you meant you took it from an aquarium that is still running. If you used gravel that has been dried out then the bacteria is long gone. The Bactozym is probably what's converting your ammonia that fast.


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## ptom (Jul 3, 2014)

Tetra markets bactozym not as a source of bacteria but enzymes to promote bacteria growth.

Is it possible to bring no2 from dry source then? 

Another thing I haven't mentioned: the aquarium was filled with moistened soil and gravel on top for about a week before planting and filling with water. Wonder whether moistened soil could be a surface for bacteria to start?


P


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## greaser84 (Feb 2, 2014)

ptom said:


> Tetra markets bactozym not as a source of bacteria but enzymes to promote bacteria growth.
> 
> Is it possible to bring no2 from dry source then?
> 
> ...


A couple things may of occurred: 1. The bactozym sped up the bacteria growth allowing you to see nitrites and nitrates earlier then usually 2. your soil is leeching ammonia which supplied a food source for the bacteria and as long as it was damp the bacteria can grow, so you may be farther along in your cycle then you think. 3. Your water source may contain nitrites and/or nitrates which will obviously show up on a test. 4. Your test kits are old/bad or not calibrated. I'm not aware of nitrite calibration but there is a nitrate calibration. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=83545&highlight=calibration 
 Either way sounds like your cycle is moving right along!!!!!!!!


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Soil is highly likely the answer here. Both as a supplier of ammonia and as a source for many species of microorganisms. greaser's idea 2 is probably right. Simply by keeping it damp for a week there was enough material (ammonia and oxygen) there to get a start on the growth of nitrifying bacteria. 

Gravel that has been dried does not have live bacteria.


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## ptom (Jul 3, 2014)

Thank you both! Do you know if it's possible to calculate certain level of ammonia means certain level of no2 and no3 later?

There's information on the soil about N content - 85g/m3 and ammonia - 55g/m3. 


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

I am sure it is possible, but tricky. 
The most common and populous nitrifying bacteria will follow the chemical formula
NH3 (or NH4) + O2 > NO2 > NO3
I know, this is not balanced for oxygen- my point is that the nitrogen follows right on through, each molecule has one atom of nitrogen. 

However, other things enter into the problem. This is not a closed system. Too many things entering and leaving. 
For example, there are microorganisms that remove the oxygen from the nitrate and release the nitrogen as N2, which leaves the tank to enter the atmosphere. 

For aquarium purposes it is best to simply monitor the levels of NH3 and NH4, NO2 and NO3. This will give you a resonably good idea about how well the system will handle a reasonable load of fish. Reasonable stocking levels, or even slight overstocking will not produce as much as much ammonia as you are using to grow the bacteria during the fishless cycle.


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## ptom (Jul 3, 2014)

In case anybody's interested in the "damp soil startup" of the fishless cycle - total ammonia today is 1-2 ppm, NO2 is 2 ppm, NO3 is 25 ppm. All on the fifth day 

No more ammonia today, will add some tomorrow if it drops below 1ppm. Will target at 1-2 ppm now that nitrates are increasing.


P


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## ptom (Jul 3, 2014)

Hi again,
Ammonia is low, NO2 - more than my test scale - above 5 ppm. NO3 is reaching 50 ppm. I've been doing 30% water changes last two days, but maybe it's pointless untill all ammonia came out and gets converted into NO3? There are just plants, so what NO2 and NO3 limit is safe for them?

By the way, they are planted for a week now and start growing nicely. Mostly the ones in front, they get most light - especially utricilaria graminifolia looks great with all new, light green leaves. Plants in the back don't look very happy.


P


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## THE V (Nov 17, 2011)

If there are just plants in there don't worry about the nitrogen levels. Just do a 50% water change once a week and wait a couple of weeks. The water change is more to get rid of excess nutrients leaching and prevent an algae outbreak.

Plants can use NH3, NO2, & NO3 in all forms they are not that picky.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Personally, I'd do water changes with nitrates that high... if for no other reason than to keep the plants accustomed to the lower levels that will be maintained once you stock the tank.

Nice when a cycle goes this quickly!


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## ptom (Jul 3, 2014)

I keep on changing it, still NO2 is sky high. After diluting tank water with tap water 1:3, I get max result >5 ppm. First two steps of the nitrogen cycle went fast, so probably will have to wait twice as long for the last step to complete 


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## ptom (Jul 3, 2014)

As the NO3 in my tank is getting lower with daily water changes (now down to ~20 ppm) and NO2 is still way higher the test scale (means even higher than 20 ppm), I am wondering what level of NO2 is bad for tank cycling. I've read that if nitritation runs faster than nitratation, then it leads to NO2 buildup and HNO2 which is poisonous both for ammonia- and nitrite-oxidizing bacteria. I could not however find data what level is too high. Can anyone help?


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Here is the fishless cycle. 
YES high ammonia and high nitrite are bad. Do a really big water change to get the NO2 WAY down. Then dose just 1 ppm ammonia until the Nitrospira (nitrite handling bacteria) have caught up.

Cycle: To grow the beneficial bacteria that remove ammonia and nitrite from the aquarium.

Fish-In Cycle: To expose fish to toxins while using them as the source of ammonia to grow nitrogen cycle bacteria. Exposure to ammonia burns the gills and other soft tissue, stresses the fish and lowers their immunity. Exposure to nitrite makes the blood unable to carry oxygen. Research methemglobinemia for details. 

Fishless Cycle: The safe way to grow more bacteria, faster, in an aquarium, pond or riparium. 

The method I give here was developed by 2 scientists who wanted to quickly grow enough bacteria to fully stock a tank all at one time, with no plants helping, and overstock it as is common with Rift Lake Cichlid tanks. 

1a) Set up the tank and all the equipment. You can plant if you want. Include the proper dose of dechlorinator with the water. 
Optimum water chemistry:
GH and KH above 3 German degrees of hardness. A lot harder is just fine. 
pH above 7, and into the mid 8s is just fine. 
Temperature in the upper 70s F (mid 20s C) is good. Higher is OK if the water is well aerated. 
A trace of other minerals may help. Usually this comes in with the water, but if you have a pinch of KH2PO4, that may be helpful. 
High oxygen level. Make sure the filter and power heads are running well. Plenty of water circulation. 
No toxins in the tank. If you washed the tank, or any part of the system with any sort of cleanser, soap, detergent, bleach or anything else make sure it is well rinsed. Do not put your hands in the tank when you are wearing any sort of cosmetics, perfume or hand lotion. No fish medicines of any sort. 
A trace of salt (sodium chloride) is OK, but not required. 
This method of growing bacteria will work in a marine system, too. The species of bacteria are different. 

1b) Optional: Add any source of the bacteria that you are growing to seed the tank. Cycled media from a healthy tank is good. Decor or some gravel from a cycled tank is OK. Live plants or plastic are OK. Bottled bacteria is great, but only if it contains Nitrospira species of bacteria. Read the label and do not waste your money on anything else. 
At the time this was written the right species could be found in: 
Dr. Tims One and Only
Tetra Safe Start
Microbe Lift Nite Out II
...and perhaps others. 
You do not have to jump start the cycle. The right species of bacteria are all around, and will find the tank pretty fast. 

2) Add ammonia until the test reads 5 ppm. This ammonia is the cheapest you can find. No surfactants, no perfumes. Read the fine print. This is often found at discount stores like Dollar Tree, or hardware stores like Ace. You could also use a dead shrimp form the grocery store, or fish food. Protein breaks down to become ammonia. You do not have good control over the ammonia level, though. 
Some substrates release ammonia when they are submerged for the first time. Monitor the level and do enough water changes to keep the ammonia at the levels detailed below. 

3) Test daily. For the first few days not much will happen, but the bacteria that remove ammonia are getting started. Finally the ammonia starts to drop. Add a little more, once a day, to test 5 ppm. 

4) Test for nitrite. A day or so after the ammonia starts to drop the nitrite will show up. When it does allow the ammonia to drop to 3 ppm. 

5) Test daily. Add ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. If the nitrite or ammonia go to 5 ppm do a water change to get these lower. The ammonia removing species and the nitrite removing species (Nitrospira) do not do well when the ammonia or nitrite are over 5 ppm. 

6) When the ammonia and nitrite both hit zero 24 hours after you have added the ammonia the cycle is done. You can challenge the bacteria by adding a bit more than 3 ppm ammonia, and it should be able to handle that, too, within 24 hours. 

7) Now test the nitrate. Probably sky high! 
Do as big a water change as needed to lower the nitrate until it is safe for fish. Certainly well under 20, and a lot lower is better. This may call for more than one water change, and up to 100% water change is not a problem. Remember the dechlor!
If you will be stocking right away (within 24 hours) no need to add more ammonia. If stocking will be delayed keep feeding the bacteria by adding ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. You will need to do another water change right before adding the fish.
__________________________

Helpful hints:

A) You can run a fishless cycle in a bucket to grow bacteria on almost any filter media like bio balls, sponges, ceramic bio noodles, lava rock or Matala mats. Simply set up any sort of water circulation such as a fountain pump or air bubbler and add the media to the bucket. Follow the directions for the fishless cycle. When the cycle is done add the media to the filter. I have run a canister filter in a bucket and done the fishless cycle.

B) The nitrogen cycle bacteria will live under a wide range of conditions and bounce back from minor set backs. By following the set up suggestions in part 1b) you are setting up optimum conditions for fastest reproduction and growth.
GH and KH can be as low as 1 degree, but watch it! These bacteria use the carbon in carbonates, and if it is all used up (KH = 0) the bacteria may die off. 
pH as low as 6.5 is OK, but by 6.0 the bacteria are not going to be doing very well. They are still there, and will recover pretty well when conditions get better. 
Temperature almost to freezing is OK, but they must not freeze, and they are not very active at all. They do survive in a pond, but they are slow to warm up and get going in the spring. This is where you might need to grow some in a bucket in a warm place and supplement the pond population. Too warm is not good, either. Tropical or room temperature tank temperatures are best. (68 to 85*F or 20 to 28*C)
Moderate oxygen can be tolerated for a while. However, to remove lots of ammonia and nitrite these bacteria must have oxygen. They turn one into the other by adding oxygen. If you must stop running the filter for an hour or so, no problem. If longer, remove the media and keep it where it will get more oxygen. 
Once the bacteria are established they can tolerate some fish medicines. This is because they live in a complex film called Bio film on all the surfaces in the filter and the tank. Medicines do not enter the bio film well. 
These bacteria do not need to live under water. They do just fine in a humid location. They live in healthy garden soil, as well as wet locations. 

C) Planted tanks may not tolerate 3 ppm or 5 ppm ammonia. It is possible to cycle the tank at lower levels of ammonia so the plants do not get ammonia burn. Add ammonia to only 1 ppm, but test twice a day, and add ammonia as needed to keep it at 1 ppm. The plants are also part of the bio filter, and you may be able to add the fish sooner, if the plants are thriving.


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## ptom (Jul 3, 2014)

Thanks!
I've done 75% water change today and measured right after the change: 0 ppm NH3 and NH4, 1ppm nitrite, 0 ppm nitrate. Added a bit of ammonia. Hope I am on the right track now.


P


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

That sounds good. Just barely enough ammonia to keep things going until the Nitrospira (nitrite removing species) catches up. 
Then return to the 3 ppm ammonia and build the bacteria population up until they can remove that much ammonia overnight (well, 24 hours), and not show any nitrite. 
Then the tank is cycled. 
Water change to remove nitrates, and add livestock.


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