# Sump set up question...



## chasely (Mar 23, 2005)

It's been a while (well, a long while) since I've been here. I tore down my last planted tank a little over a year ago since I was apartment hopping every nine months (I'm a college student that moved home for the summer). 

It looks like I may be renting out a house with a good basement and access to all the main plumbing lines so I'm hoping to pick up a used 75 or 90 gallon tank in the next couple months and set up a nice big planted tank.

I've been researching sumps here as well as reef forums and have a basic idea about the flow of water through a sump and was wondering if this is possible. 

I hope to get a "reef ready" tank but if not I have the tools to set up an internal overflow box and drill the bulkhead holes to start the plumbing.

I currently have a Filstar XP2 from my old set up.

So what I'm envisioning is this (I just want to know if it's possible):
Tank drains from overflow directly into the XP2 -> XP2 goes into sump where I'll have the heater and probably another HOB filter (XP2 is only rated at 300 gph) ->pump in sump goes up through another bulkhead back to tank.​
I'm planning on just using flexible tubing for the return hose for the time being since I'd like to add CO2 and maybe UV to the line after the sump when I have the financial means to do so.

I also plan on having an auto/top off system in the sump using a float valve. I'm just worried about dechlorinating the water. Anybody know a good way (also cheap) to do this? I definitely cannot afford one of those Aquacontrollers or autodoser units that can run $150.

Thanks a lot guys. When I do get the tank I'll definitely do a very embarrassing photojournal about it.

Chase

P.S. Sorry for the long post.


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## chasely (Mar 23, 2005)

Shows I only have one post...could of sworn I posted here back in the day. Oh well....thanks for any input!

Chase


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## mooner (Dec 2, 2007)

chasely said:


> I hope to get a "reef ready" tank but if not I have the tools to set up an internal overflow box and drill the bulkhead holes to start the plumbing.


Remember to seal off everything to prevent degassing and keep overflow(s) 2" or less.




chasely said:


> So what I'm envisioning is this (I just want to know if it's possible):Tank drains from overflow directly into the XP2 -> XP2 goes into sump where I'll have the heater and probably another HOB filter (XP2 is only rated at 300 gph) ->pump in sump goes up through another bulkhead back to tank.​


You can't put a canister in line with an overflow system. An overflow relies on gravity, and a canister on pressure. You can run them independently though.



chasely said:


> I'm planning on just using flexible tubing for the return hose for the time being since I'd like to add CO2 and maybe UV to the line after the sump when I have the financial means to do so.


You would be better off to build a Barr/Rex reactor for the CO2


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

chasely said:


> I currently have a Filstar XP2 from my old set up.
> 
> So what I'm envisioning is this (I just want to know if it's possible):
> Tank drains from overflow directly into the XP2 -> XP2 goes into sump where I'll have the heater and probably another HOB filter (XP2 is only rated at 300 gph) ->pump in sump goes up through another bulkhead back to tank.​


Like mooner said, the cannister works with pressure and siphons the water out of the tank and pushes it back into it. You could go with this route but there are some dangers associated with it. Normally in a cannister system, the loop is closed; meaning that the pressure of the water is not "let out". In a sump system, the sump itself is normally not sealed against pressure, therefore it is open to the air and if you let it, it will overflow unless something stops the water from pouring into it.

So let's say on your tank you have your overflow plumbed 2" below the surface going into the cannister, then to the sump and so on and so forth. if the power goes out, the water will continue to siphon in the system with the sump until the water level drops the two inches to the top of the overflow and cuts the siphon. Make sense?

The other issue with the cannister is that you are really just pumping water directly into the sump and if that pump fails you would also get an overflow situation all over your basement. 

So overall, combining the sump and cannister are not that good of an idea. Personally I would either go with one or the other. For example, get two cannisters and an inline heater if you are partial to keeping your XP2. Then you could run a closed loop system and not worry about water all over your basement.

I really hope that makes sense, if not let me know and I will try to clarify.



chasely said:


> I'm planning on just using flexible tubing for the return hose for the time being since I'd like to add CO2 and maybe UV to the line after the sump when I have the financial means to do so.


This is no problem and is normally better. Using rigid pipe can sometimes make it difficult to move something around. Just to be sure though, try to get thicker walled tubing so that you do not run into issues with kinks.



chasely said:


> I also plan on having an auto/top off system in the sump using a float valve. I'm just worried about dechlorinating the water. Anybody know a good way (also cheap) to do this? I definitely cannot afford one of those Aquacontrollers or autodoser units that can run $150.


I am currently looking to do exactly the same thing. Normally you just need some kind of valve, a pump, and a reservoir. You would just fill the reservoir with water directly from your plumbing and treat it and then it would refill your main tank whenever it got low. Check out http://www.autotopoff.com, they have some great kits there and they seem to get really good reviews from those in the reef forums. Hope this helps and does not make it worse!


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

mooner said:


> You can't put a canister in line with an overflow system. An overflow relies on gravity, and a canister on pressure. You can run them independently though.


Not all overflows rely on gravity, some work on siphons which is the same as a canister. You can plumb a cannister directly into an overflow system and then have it return directly to the tank through a drilled bulkhead, therefore eliminating any lily pipe apparatus. The only difference with this rather than an overflow feeding a sump is that you can put the inlet for the cannister at the very bottom of the aquarium and not worry about a siphon causing an overflow because it is a closed system.

Tom Barr is working on one now that uses the Ocean Clear cannisters for this purpose. It is great for hiding plumbing around the edges of the tank.

Just my two cents.


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## chasely (Mar 23, 2005)

intermediate_noob said:


> I really hope that makes sense, if not let me know and I will try to clarify.


Thanks guys. The whole sump/canister thing is making more sense. If for some reason the auto-top off failed and I had my canister in line with the system it could possibly burn out the filter (something I definitely don't want).

One thing I was thinking about is possibly running the cannister within the sump. I really just want to use my sump as means to add volume and get what I can out of the tank. If I had the cannister set up as a circuit in the tank with a HOB filter as well would that provide enough filtration?



intermediate_noob said:


> I am currently looking to do exactly the same thing. Normally you just need some kind of valve, a pump, and a reservoir. You would just fill the reservoir with water directly from your plumbing and treat it and then it would refill your main tank whenever it got low. Check out http://www.autotopoff.com, they have some great kits there and they seem to get really good reviews from those in the reef forums. Hope this helps and does not make it worse!


I was originally just thinking about tapping into the plumbing for the top off but the reservoir makes more sense since I can monitor temperature as well as de-chlorinate it there before it goes to the tank.

Thanks again! If you have any more comments keep em coming!

Chase


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

chasely said:


> One thing I was thinking about is possibly running the cannister within the sump. I really just want to use my sump as means to add volume and get what I can out of the tank. If I had the cannister set up as a circuit in the tank with a HOB filter as well would that provide enough filtration?
> Chase


Are you saying to have the HOB and Cannister for the aquarium? Like adding another filter so you could get more filtration by adding the HOB? Yes it could work, or you could grab another cannister off eBay.


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## chasely (Mar 23, 2005)

intermediate_noob said:


> Are you saying to have the HOB and Cannister for the aquarium? Like adding another filter so you could get more filtration by adding the HOB? Yes it could work, or you could grab another cannister off eBay.


I don't quite understand what you're saying but I think the answer is yes. I'd be running the canister and HOB filter within the sump. I know the XP2 is about 130 new. Maybe I'll cruise it from time to time and see how much I can pick one up for.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

chasely said:


> I don't quite understand what you're saying but I think the answer is yes. I'd be running the canister and HOB filter within the sump. I know the XP2 is about 130 new. Maybe I'll cruise it from time to time and see how much I can pick one up for.


OK, I had it wrong, I thought you meant to use a HOB filter and the cannister and forgo the sump. If you run them inside the sump, well I have never seen that done before so I cannot be 100% but I would assume that it would not be OK. 

Personally, I would rather run one or two sponge filters in there powered by powerheads. Something like this is what I had in mind:

http://www.petsolutions.com/Hydro-Sponge-V+I32500950+C23.aspx

They are cheap, easy to clean, and you can power a reactor with the outflow of the powerhead. Just a thought. I have seen people also do this as well:

http://www.swisstropicals.com/Poret%20Filter%20Foam.html

I actually just purchased some of the Poret foam from Stephan at Swisstropicals and want to setup my sump with it. That kind of foam allows for all kinds of options for biological filtration. Once again, just my thoughts.

Having the HOB and the cannister _will_ work, do not get me wrong, but to me I would rather keep it more simple than that. Also, check the Swap and Shop forum here because you can find some pretty good deals sometimes. Anyway, hope this helps.


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## chasely (Mar 23, 2005)

Thanks again for the reply. I've been looking at Tom's (plantbrain) recent woodscaping project and like the looks of those Ocean Clear canisters. Could I run one of those in series with the Filstar? If not I may just have to drill a couple extra bulkhead holes and run them in parallel...I really like the look of those, but I believe they need an external filter, correct?

I thought inline filters would be really expensive but at $50-60 it's not near as bad as I thought it would be.

As you can probably tell nothing is even close to being finalized yet. I don't even have a tank yet! Thanks for your help int-noob, really making me think about possible ways to do it.

I also thought about instead of doing an automatic tipoff, just using a timer to deliver a very small amount of water each day, and then changing it depending on the time of year/conditions in the tank room.

Thanks again!

Chase


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

IMHO a float switch might be more reliable for an automatic topoff?

Also, the filters would be more effective parallel instead of in series.


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## chasely (Mar 23, 2005)

lauraleellbp said:


> IMHO a float switch might be more reliable for an automatic topoff?
> 
> Also, the filters would be more effective parallel instead of in series.


Thanks for your comments. I think I'd probably put them in parallel if I had to drill the holes myself but if I get a pre-drilled tank I'd put them in series.

I don't doubt that a float switch would be more reliable. I'm just thinking if I go with canisters I want it to be as aesthetically pleasing as possible (and still simple). I think my best bet would be to monitor my daily evaporation rate and then set a timer to deliver that amount per day.

For example- In a 75 gallon tank, each inch corresponds to 3.75 gallons. If I were to lose 1/2 inch to evaporation each day that would be about 1.75 gallons. Admittedly, I have no idea if that's a realistic figure or not.

In any case. If losing a 1/2 inch a day is about average I can set up a timer to deliver about 1.5 gallons each day.

It would take a lot of tweaking (definitely more than an auto top-off), but it wouldn't take up any room in the tank. Those are my thoughts.

Then again, what do I know? I'm asking questions here for a reason:smile: 

Chase


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

chasely said:


> Thanks again for the reply. I've been looking at Tom's (plantbrain) recent woodscaping project and like the looks of those Ocean Clear canisters. Could I run one of those in series with the Filstar? If not I may just have to drill a couple extra bulkhead holes and run them in parallel...I really like the look of those, but I believe they need an external filter, correct?


They do not need a filter, they need an external pump.


chasely said:


> I thought inline filters would be really expensive but at $50-60 it's not near as bad as I thought it would be.


If you are talking about the Ocean Clears, then let me know where you found them because normally they are closer to 150 each.


chasely said:


> As you can probably tell nothing is even close to being finalized yet. I don't even have a tank yet! Thanks for your help int-noob, really making me think about possible ways to do it.


I am glad I could help out, sometimes another voice can make you think of things that you never thought about and save some time and money in the end. Or even better, spend your money wisely.



chasely said:


> I also thought about instead of doing an automatic tipoff, just using a timer to deliver a very small amount of water each day, and then changing it depending on the time of year/conditions in the tank room.


This is a hybrid of your idea from Wasserpest on this forum:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/28673-wasserpests-cheap-auto-water-change.html

Take a look at that thread, I think that is what you are looking to do and would be even better if paired with a reservoir so you could treat the tap water.

Hope that helps!


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## chasely (Mar 23, 2005)

intermediate_noob said:


> They do not need a filter, they need an external pump.
> 
> 
> If you are talking about the Ocean Clears, then let me know where you found them because normally they are closer to 150 each.


This just goes to show that your mind starts going when you get tired. I meant to say pump the first time and I was talking about inline heaters, not in line filters.

Whoops.




intermediate_noob said:


> This is a hybrid of your idea from Wasserpest on this forum:
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/28673-wasserpests-cheap-auto-water-change.html
> 
> Take a look at that thread, I think that is what you are looking to do and would be even better if paired with a reservoir so you could treat the tap water.


That's the one that got me thinking about the auto top off in the first place! Just looks like it's going to take some muscle to get that self-piercing saddle valve in!

Any idea on how to patch that up when it's time to move?

Chase


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## chasely (Mar 23, 2005)

intermediate_noob said:


> If you are talking about the Ocean Clears, then let me know where you found them because normally they are closer to 150 each.


Not $50, but they have the 317 for $115.

I have no idea what the difference between the models are or if they come with the media, but here ya go.

http://www.toofishy.com/home.php?cat=534


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## chasely (Mar 23, 2005)

I figure I'm going to pull out of this whole, "low tech" thing. Thanks to this forum I'm gung-ho on getting pressurized CO2 and the whole nine yards.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Running a sump, HOB, canister and auto-top-off is not a problem--I do exactly that:

Acrochordus javanicus setup

Its actually 5 units all plumbed together. The main tank A, main tank B, aquatic plant filter, emersed plant filter and the sump.

Main tank B (not shown) plumbs directly to and from the sump. The emersed plant filter plumbs directly to and from main tank A. Main tank A over-flows to the aquatic plant filter which in turn over-flows to the sump. The sump then returns water to main tank A (and B, of course). Main tank A is also filtered by an xP3. The returns in the sump are filtered by dual Hydor 5 sponges (prefilters) and there is a pengiun 1140 powerhead that also has 2 of the sponges. Additionally, there is an old style fluval 3 plus in the sump full of purigen. Add ~1,000 watts of heaters and it maintains ~85F.


The HOB is actually on another (feeder fish) setup, but I do have an over-hang style UV on this sump--does that count? :icon_bigg 

If you think its cool--thank the folks here at PT--they taught me pretty much everything I know! roud:


Also, you can use a carbon filter to filter out chlorine--that's what I am doing and it works great. If you have chloramines then you'll need Catalytic GAC carbon. Pick up a housing on ebay and some cheap filters, change them every 6 months and you should be good to go.....

Oh, throw in the auto-WC system and all I do is feed the plants and the feeder fish......roud:


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