# Plant Melting / Algae



## Nath514 (May 6, 2014)

I have a fairly new tank, it is a 20 gallon tall tank that has been established for about a month now. I am having trouble with some of the plants melting and some build up of algae especially on the moss and driftwood. Below are some specs of my tank.

Size: 20 Gallon Tall
Filter: Eheim 2215 Canister Filter
Lights: 2 x Current USA two row leds ( 7 hours / day )
Water Changes: 1 per week 10 - 20 %
Chemicals: 2ml flourish excel daily, 1ml flourish ferts weekly with water change.
Inhabitants: 1 Beta, 10 CPDs, 4 Ghost Shrimp, 3 Nerite Snails

Below are some pictures showing the plant melting and the algea, any advice would be awesome thanks!


----------



## Nath514 (May 6, 2014)

The plant melting has accelerated and the algae is taking hold any ideas?


----------



## ChemGuyEthan (Apr 13, 2014)

I had my s repens randomly melt one time. Still can't explain why it happened...

Anyway, amano shrimp really like that lighter colored hair algae, a small army took care of my problem in about a week... I also believe if you were to take your normal excel dose and just use a syringe or the like to squirt it directly on the algae spots each day it would help to weaken it and I would think eventually kill it.

Just be sure not to put in more than the recommended max dose in your spot treatment.

Good luck!


----------



## Nath514 (May 6, 2014)

Thanks for the reply, I will see if I can find amano shrimp and give a few of them a try. I usually administer the flourish excel near the moss but I will try to make it even more direct and see if that helps.


----------



## Red Cloud (Nov 11, 2014)

The algae is probably growing on the moss because it is close to the surface, near the light. It is slow growing and a common problem area. Try soaking the moss in a peroxide solution and adding it back in when the tank is more established. Also, I would gradually work up to 4ml Excel daily as it helps combat algae at double dose. Also, I would dose ferts daily instead of weekly. Just divide the weekly dose by 7, using a tad more than recommended. Watch for new plant growth, because if you are not getting any there could be a problem with lighting being too bright or not enough. Usually in a low tech, it is a matter of providing too much and the plants can't keep up without co2.

Obsession is a matter of opinion


----------



## dzega (Apr 22, 2013)

you need to get your plants to grow, otherwise you will combat algae forever.
ferts+propper amount of light+co2 is the key. light intensity must be leveled with amount of co2. 
if tank is running only for 1 month then its too soon to blame on anything but id start with 
1) lowering light intensity by 30-50% (light hours set at 7..8 is good)
2) gradualy over 10 days increase excel dose to 5ml
3) adding fast growing stem or floating plants
4) manualy removing as much algae and damaged plants as you can.

PS you have served very nice and expensive food for your betta inthere lol how big are those gorgeous CPDs ?


----------



## Nath514 (May 6, 2014)

The beta is a very well fed fish, the CPDs are still pretty small most are about half an inch but they seem to be doing well. I plan on adding some more in a few months. Most of the plants are growing pretty rapidly but I am still having the algaie problem.


----------



## nixe (May 1, 2013)

i'm also having an algae problem on my plants, and some of them seem to have that melting that you described. my tank has been established for about 2 years. and this is a new problem. i just did a 50% water change, and i will do daily water changes for a week. maybe that'll help. i also just cut the lighting time back, like somebody in this thread suggested. i fertilize my plants with a liquid called "flourish". i don't add any liquid co2. maybe i should do that? my tank is 55 gal, with 2 angel fish, 10 cherry barb, 8 fancy guppies, 8 tetras, 8 cory catfish.


----------



## Nath514 (May 6, 2014)

I am still having tons of problems. I now have horrible brown algae, as well as blackbeard algae all over the place. I went ahead and made a diy co2 generator to try that instead of using excel. The co2 generator has been running for about 4 days now. I am seeing even more plants start to melt and the algae is completely out of control.

I am wondering if the plants melting is a result of the co2 generator. Are they just adjusting to the new levels of co2 or is there something else I should be checking. Will the co2 generator help with the algae? Currently almost every plant is covered and the tank looks horrible. I am thinking about increasing my water changes to twice a week but am not sure if that will make the water conditions fluctuate more and encourage the algae growth.

Any more advice would be great.

Thanks

Bump: Here are some pictures showing the algea and plant melting.









http://i.imgur.com/H5dj6tF.jpg?1









http://i.imgur.com/SIdU1Pi.jpg?1









http://i.imgur.com/Z3whnWm.jpg?1









http://i.imgur.com/8xMxrQK.jpg?1









http://i.imgur.com/hds9Ofl.jpg?1


----------



## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

Were you able to find any Amano shrimp? Snails help with filmy algae but usually aren't interested in filamentous types as much although I have seen them eat dead BBA. Common livebearers eat a lot of algae like some of the kinds you have. Getting some algae grazers and picking out the algae need to be done. This is a mini garden and algae are the weeds and diseases we face.

Have you been able to turn down the lights? I'd try to turn them to about half what they are now and when you get the tank cleaned up turn the intensity back up by 5% every couple weeks. 

Flourish is good stuff but with the bright light over the tank it isn't enough. Plants need nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, calcium, magnesium and a bunch of minor nutrients. In a low light tank fish pee/poop provide nitrogen and phosphorus and your water might provide enough calcium and magnesium but in a bright tank that often isn't enough. There is a guy selling complete fertilizer in the sale forum, have a look see. Strong growing plants keep the eye from going to ugly algae and algae can scavenge low levels of nutrients better than the higher plants can so providing plenty of nutrients helps higher plants more than it helps algae.

I'd also keep using Excel. Use the water change amount squirted on the worst spots when water is low during a water change and let the tank cook for 15-20 minutes then refill as well as the daily dose.

The Staurogyne is melting but at the same time it is growing new shoots, bet it is adjusting to the changes you have made. I'd break off the mostly bare stems, take off the nasty looking leaves and replant the stem.

I have a couple of java fern roots that look like yours. The platies pick at that algae all the time but cutting off the infested roots would work as well. They pick at the moss as well, guess it has algae hidden in it as well.

I cut sickly moss off the wood, toss it and new healthy moss grows back. If the moss has attached I'd do that. It will grow tighter to the wood and looks much more natural. Keep the trimmings and try to clean them with hydrogen peroxide dip in another container if you need more moss for your scape then tie it down somewhere in the tank. Research dipping moss and maybe even try a couple different ways to see what works best for you. New growth resists algae better than old growth so trimming it when algae attacks may keep it clean once light and nutrients are at a good level for the CO2 you are able to provide.


----------



## Nath514 (May 6, 2014)

Thanks for the reply, I have a 3 nerite snails, 4 ghost shrimp and 4 ottos. Still trying to find the amano shrimp. I have turned the lights down to 6 hours / day but I will try going lower. I also took a look at the for sale forums and will try to purchase some micro / macro ferts. As for picking the algea off. I have been trying but it is growing so fast I can't keep up.


----------



## Ben125 (Dec 16, 2014)

Unkempt moss catches everything floating in your tank. All the dirt, fish poo, algae, fish food... It all ends up in your moss. What you have there currently is nothing but a breeding ground for algae and scum. Its like a launch pad for the algae to attack the rest of you tank. 

Here's what you should do. Get a gravel vac in there and try to remove as much of that stuff you can. Really get in there and get as much as you can. Then get some H202 and spray that moss down well. In my experience moss can take H2O2 fine so don't be afraid to use alot. Finally get string and tie that moss down tight. 

Aside from the usual advice about too much/ not enough light, co2, nutes , ect... this should help alot.


----------



## klibs (May 1, 2014)

dzega said:


> you need to get your plants to grow, otherwise you will combat algae forever.
> ferts+propper amount of light+co2 is the key. light intensity must be leveled with amount of co2.
> if tank is running only for 1 month then its too soon to blame on anything but id start with
> 1) lowering light intensity by 30-50% (light hours set at 7..8 is good)
> ...


+1 to this post

You need to lower your light immediately and get rid of any dying plants. Dead plants just melt and produce ammonia and further contribute to algae. Trying to save unhealthy plants that are beyond saving is only going to make matters worse (I've tried and failed before lol)

Treating with Excel spot dosing or H2O2 spot dosing could kill off some of the algae you can't manually remove and give you an edge. Just remember that it will always come back if the underlying symptoms are not resolved...


----------



## Nath514 (May 6, 2014)

I have been puling off as much algae as I can each day. And have cut many of the badly infected leaves off. I was also able to get 6 amano shrimp. I may get some more ( how many is a good amount for a 20 tall? ). I have also started dosing liquid ferts that I purchased from nilocg. I dose micros 3 times a week and macros 3 times a week as instructed. I am also adding 2ml of excel each night after the lights go off.

In terms of water changes I have been doing 2-3 a week to suck up all the algae I scrape off. These water changes are only about 10% so nothing big just enough to suck up lose debris.

Lights are on for 6 hours a day from 2 - 8. 

Is the excel safe for the amanos? I had ghost shrimp in the tank but they have all disappeared so I am worried the excel might be killing my inverts.


----------



## fish jihad (Mar 1, 2014)

Some inverts can be sensitive to excel. You can remove them while treating the tank.

Hand cleaning, spot treating, lower light/higher ferts, and a clean up crew like you have (otos and snails)... thats about the best you can do. Give it some time.
If the algae wont stay off the moss after about 6 weeks of all of the advice you got, then i would throw the moss out. Better to buy clean moss then keep an algae machine. 
My tank seems to breed a new strain of algae per month. Never a ton but just enough to piss me off. There are many things you can try. But the most sure fire is to make sure you have enough plants in the tank to soak up ALL the nutrients. If the plant gets all the goodies, then there isnt anything left for the algae. For a 20 gallon id say at least 20 plants. Then add or reduce based on algae.


----------



## adamfish (Feb 3, 2015)

Peroxide in a spray bottle and spray it under the water on the plants. YouTube videos of this.


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

With all of this decay and algae removal going on lots of organic waste.
Purigen from Seachem may help absorb some of this material.
I use Purigen and UV sterilizer at all times.
Whenever anything is stirred up the tank is again clear in <20 minutes.
This is a 40G long heavily planted, 15 molly sized fish.
2 Amano work hard all day, 14 ghosts break down all crap on the bottom.


----------



## Nath514 (May 6, 2014)

More Problems:

Woke up this morning to find 3 dead amano shrimp. I have a feeling I lost more than that. Wen to check the water params and found the following:

pH: 6-6.2
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 10ppm
KH: 71.6
CO2 75ppm

The co2 and nitrate levels were alarming, while the nitrate isn't off the charts I have never seen the tank go above 0 since it has been setup. The co2 levels are way to high for my tank. Not sure what to do about that, could the low ph be what is killing the amanos? The lights had only been on for about an hour and half.

I have since done a 40% water change to bring down the nitrates and hopefully reduce the co2 levels. Really don't want to lose more amanos as they were hard to find.

Since I am now dosing the micro and macro ferts should I expect an increase in nitrate levels?

I am using purigen inside my canister filter.

Thanks for any help!


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Nath514 said:


> More Problems:
> 
> Nitrate: 10ppm
> 
> ...


Maybe a month with no nitrogen has not helped the plants.
I'm lucky if when dosing I can keep 5ppm for 24hrs.

Bump: Just to add, maybe should have left the nitrates, run an air stone, gas off some CO2.


----------



## Nath514 (May 6, 2014)

Still fighting algae but it doesn't seem to be growing at quite the rate it was. I keep pulling off the hair algea hopefully eventually it will stop coming back.

One new concern is that my beta's eyes are looking a little cloudy. It is swimming quite a lot back and forth so I am worried that it might be too much ammonia due to low ph killing off the good bacteria although my water tests do not reveal that.


----------



## Nath514 (May 6, 2014)

Time for another update:

Tank Params:

PH: 6.2
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate 30
Kh: 60
Co2: 56

I am still worried about how low the ph is. Would it be bad to use something like api ph up to try to get that number up some or should I just keep doing what I am doing and see if it comes up naturally?

Most of the brown algae is gone now. The biggest problem now is the green hair algae which I have been removing manually when I do water changes. Nothing seems to be interested in eating it and even though I manually remove it by the next water change it has grown back.

Next week when I have the water low I am going to try to wipe hydrogen peroxide on some of the exposed leaves and see if that helps. Unfortunately I will only be able to do that on the higher plants.

The betta's eye is still cloudy but it still is very active and eating like a pig.


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

I have to ask, why are you keeping the CO2 so high?
It is dropping you pH considerably.







That's a lot of wasted CO2.

Why not raise the hardness of the water.
That will bring pH up, could have a NH3 spike though???


----------



## dzega (Apr 22, 2013)

im sure your co2 actually is not that high. ph/kh table for co2 calculations assumes there is no other ph lowering agents in tank wich is not true.
to get actuals co2 numbers take a cup with your tanks water, test ph, then leave it for like 2 days and retest ph. from difference then calculate co2. 30ppm co2=1 ph difference if i recall it correctly.
and i think ammonia is whats killing your inhabitants. tests usually show it only when youre way over limits

edit: if your kh is bothering you just add some shrimp minerals or even plain baking soda to the tank.


----------



## Nath514 (May 6, 2014)

I am not trying to keep the co2 high. I have a DIY system so I don't have a great way of limiting the co2 into the tank.


----------



## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

What is the GH of your water? I found mine was a bit low for my plants' health and added some epsom salt as usually it is the magnesium part of the calcium/magnesium GH hardness that is low. I don't know how much baking SODA to add to increase KH but that has been posted many times on this forum somewhere. Go slow if you use KH/GH modifiers as a change in hardness does bother critters.

Put a good ripple on the water surface to degas CO2 and even more importantly increase oxygen. Amanos climb out of tanks if O2 is low I think, don't think that is why they died but still a good idea.

Unless all that CO2 is reaching the plant leaves it is doing no good, how good is the current in the tank? I know it needs to be a gentle current as this is a betta tank but there still needs to be water moving throughout.

Good that you are seeing less new algae, that is how it goes. Old algae only goes away as old leaves die and critters eat it, it doesn't just dissolve. Take out the worst leaves as soon as you see the leaf itself dying. Algae doesn't kill the leaf, poor nutrition causes a shorter leaf life as scarce nutrients are taken from older leaves to nourish new growth. Look for a change in balance. Maybe now 9 of 10 leaves have some algae, maybe next week 8 of 10 will have algae and next month 4 of 10 leaves will have some algae. Goal is no algae on new growth and you can pick out that 1 old leaf that gets algae!


----------



## Roughrider (Nov 9, 2014)

Don't be worried too much about solid Ph numbers, and I'll bet that somewhere your ph calcs are off. Take a couple cups out and test it, leave it out for a few days and then test it again and average.

My Ph runs at 7.2 and dips to around 6.9 in the mid-day of my C02 injection. When I was first starting out I had some really low ph numbers and decided I needed to build a reactor and run calcite. I had Ph swings like crazy. Your water is your water so to speak, and unless you are abnormally low/high with tap/well don't sweat it. Seriously.

Next was my diatom bloom. I immediately hit it with the phosguard hammer in the reactor - effectively stripping ALL the phosphates out of my tank, and my s.repens did EXACTLY whats happening to yours - I killed the diatom bloom in short order (phosguard and an army of oto's) but after the rebalance the BBA went apesnot.

Its all about light, a strict nutrient dosing regimen and C02 balance. You'll hit the sweet spot eventually.Getting a mutant BBA bloom under control though is a super PITA. 

Today I resorted to hydro/excel nuking after staggering its growth over a couple months, yet I'd have to say that with the pics you've provided I'd be doing H202 spot treatments with a syringe everyday and 25% water changes every other day in order to combat your algae growth while adjusting light, c02 and nutrient dosing. Just stay ahead of it with trims, spot treatments, water changes and manual removal.

Once your plants are showing natural growth at minimals of the big three, you can always bump those loads up a bit until you find an ideal range.

Never use the sledgehammer unless its a last resort.


----------



## Nath514 (May 6, 2014)

Yesterday I tried to do some h202 spot treating dosing about 1-2 ml per gallon so around 25 ml. I turned off my filter and let the tank sit for about an hour and then did a 50% water change. This morning I found one of my nerite snails and another amano shrimp dead. The algae I hit hardest with the h202 has turned bright red. The rest of the algae looks about the same.

It is now covering almost every plant in the tank. Since I am trying to follow the EI method for dosing ferts should I stick to 50% water changes once a week or should I up my water changes.


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

*5 micron filter material*

*Product Features*



Polyester Felt Filter Bag - Multifilament (Nominal Rated Filter)
36" Length x 72" Width
Food Grade Material, Maximum Working Fluid Temperature: 275°F
Strong Felt, Carbon Steel Support Ring, Hanging Strap, Singed For Added Strength
Excellent For Water, Oil, Biodiesel, Fuels, Weak Acids & Alkali, Organic Solvents & Microorganisms

I would recommend some good filter material to catch all of this crap.
Purigen bags are 180 micron, 5 micron is tight, catches everything.
I cut this with scissors to fit my canister filter.
If there is a lot of suspended material this may need changed daily.
Some algae could survive in the water column.
Don't remember, do you use a UVC sterilizer, I use a 9watt @ 40 GPH.
UV at a low flow kills algae spores and bacteria and single cell critters.
Remember to reload your Purigen bag if there is much organics getting picked up.


----------



## Nath514 (May 6, 2014)

Another update

Tank Params:

PH: ~6.4
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate 30
Kh: 60
Co2: 45

The algae is significantly better. Still a decent amount handing around but it has gone down a lot since the hydrogen peroxide treatment. One thing I think might be contributing is that I had a surgery and wasn't able to change out the co2 bottles like I usually do. This resulted in less co2 entering the tank. I think this has helped to bring levels down to a more reasonable amount. I also ordered a Phosphate test so I should be able to start monitoring that starting tomorrow.

Is it safe / advisable to put a small amount of h202 say 1-2 ml in the tank every night or so. Would that help finish of the rest of the algae or would it put the inhabitants at risk.

I have a few more cherry shrimp on their way to bolster my cleanup crew.

Let me know if there is anything else I should keep an eye on.

Thanks for everyone's' help it has been very valuable!


----------



## Nath514 (May 6, 2014)

Just tested my phosphate levels and they are at: 3-5 ppm. What is the recommended levels when do EI dosing?


----------



## lee739 (Oct 12, 2014)

EI recommendations seem to be around 1-3ppm.


----------



## Nath514 (May 6, 2014)

Another update.

Most of the algae is now gone, things seem to be stabalizing and the plants with the exception of the s repens which is now mostly stalks are doing great. I took a quick video of the tank which you can checkout at the link below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jct-9zOlAos

When I do my weekly water change I wipe down the leaves that still have algae with a paper towel soaked in h2o2. I have tried to limit spraying it directly into the tank as it seems to kill of my amano shrimp with even small amounts.

Hopefully things continue to flourish and the algae doesn't get the upper hand again.


----------



## schnebbles (Jan 10, 2015)

Pretty tank! I love my long finned serpae tetras, I need a couple more.

Is that shrimp the ghost? I want some shrimp in my tank, trying to find amanos too.


----------



## Nath514 (May 6, 2014)

Thanks! The only shrimp left are amanos and only 3 out of the original 10. Not sure why they keep dying.


----------

