# Cherry Red Shrimp DYING. Help :0! (solved? have healthy shrimp now..)



## dubels

Picture of a shrimp with molting problems from shrimpnow








What is the GH and KH? If it is a molting problem it can be because of low GH. The missing bands in the middle do look like a molting problem. 

Too much protein also causes problems with molting, so maybe limit your feeding of the flakes and try more algae wafers or blanched veggies. 

Have you seen any tetra's attacking shrimp? It seems like you have enough hiding places but if a tetra gets a hold of a weak shrimp during a molt it may end up being incomplete and them dying later. 

It might be that they were stressed from shipping and since you got them right after the LFS got them in that they were just weak and didn't make the molt. 

The longer the are dead the more milky they become. The go to a light pink and white color.


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## Bananariot

Could be molting problems,
also...
How did you acclimate them? Plop and drop isn't really meant for shrimp because they are sensitive. Though sometimes it works and cherries are the hardiest. prolly not the problem.

The temps are a bit high at 81, I would try to lower that. The shrimps may be having a bacterial infection and bacteria multiplies the fastest in high temps.


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## Shrimpaholic

Temperature seems high but what seems the most probable is they were already stressed and got pushed over the limit from being moved around so much. I would go back to the lfs and ask them how that batch of shrimp did (how many arrived dead, how many died at the lfs etc.) You could also test the water that the shrimp come in next time and ask or test the water of the tank at the lfs. I always ask questions and always test the water they are in vs the water in my tank. Does lfs have a guarantee on shrimps?


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## acitydweller

Points of focus:

High temps - keep temps below 77. 78 above will stress these dwarf shrimp to the point of death.

Calcium deficiency - lack of calcium in the diet and tank coupled with changing tds will force a fatal failed molt. spinach and calcium enriched shrimp foods and pellets work. Adding calcium clay into the water (and substrate) would also supplement it as it would permeate through their shells. a break in the back behind the Caraspaceis often is a sign of a failed molt.

Low GH - raise between 4 and 14ppm if unaccounted for.

Low PH - Neos do far better in more neutral water IME. remember that PH may fluxuate and the Neo range for PH is 6.4-7.6... better to be a tad higher than where your water is unless you are keeping caridinas in the same tank.


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## theericafish

Thanks for the info guys. I'm going to try getting the temp a little lower and I'm also going to pick up a kh test kit. Did the ph test this morning and it read the same as during the day so I don't think my ph is fluctuating.

Are there any simple and safe ways to get calcium accessible to the shrimp? I heard you can use small pieces of cuddle fish bone which is normally for birds. Other than the clay/shrimp food etc.

At work hoping I don't come home to more dead ones :0

Ill have the gh and kh info later.


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## pejerrey

Focus on GH. That seems to me to be the reason for the molting problems assuming you aren't aware of GH yet.


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## theericafish

pejerrey said:


> Focus on GH. That seems to me to be the reason for the molting problems assuming you aren't aware of GH yet.


Is gh general hardness? Ill keep that in mind but will pick up both kits anyway.


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## pejerrey

Oh, and make sure you take a look at the stickie for shrimp FAQ, very helpful info.


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## pejerrey

theericafish said:


> Is gh general hardness? Ill keep that in mind but will pick up both kits anyway.


 Get a GH booster also right away. Like fluval shrimp stratum, Seachem equilibrium, mosura mineral plus, shirakura ca+, etc.


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## theericafish

pejerrey said:


> Get a GH booster also right away. Like fluval shrimp stratum, Seachem equilibrium, mosura mineral plus, shirakura ca+, etc.


Thanks I'll look for those aswell.


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## theericafish

Kh was yellow on the first drop and the gh was 5. Noticing a brown algae bloom in the tank also. So 1/0 kh 5gh. Gonna get some products to save these guys and hope its not too late. According to the chart it looks like they should both be at 8 to 12 drops. :0


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## theericafish

I'm at the lfs now I found seachem equilibrium. What's good for the kh?


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## pejerrey

That is to adjust your GH up for them to molt.


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## pejerrey

Equilibrium also has some traces that are good for your plants and harmless to neocardinias shrimp.


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## pejerrey

theericafish said:


> Kh was yellow on the first drop and the gh was 5. Noticing a brown algae bloom in the tank also. So 1/0 kh 5gh. Gonna get some products to save these guys and hope its not too late. According to the chart it looks like they should both be at 8 to 12 drops. :0


You don't want KH, if zero, the best.

When you add the GH don't do it all at once, wait a couple of hrs at least between adding lil bits . 

They should be at least at 6 drops when reading the gh test.


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## theericafish

pejerrey said:


> You don't want KH, if zero, the best.
> 
> When you add the GH don't do it all at once, wait a couple of hrs at least between adding lil bits .
> 
> They should be at least at 6 drops when reading the gh test.


Why is kh zero the best? It seems to me the kh has to do with buffering capacity of the ph and ph swings at night when the plants create co2. Although I do not think that was the issue because I got similar tests at night before the tank was turned off and in the morning before the lights were on.

As for gh I got crushed coral and put it in a media bag and put that in the filter after rinsing it twice, once with chlorinated and once with dechlorinated water.

I decided to do that over using chemicals to alter the tank because my tap water is ph7.6 and my tank water is ph6.7. It seems I would have to mix ph up and ph down chemicals on my tap water to use the product effectively and that was just kind of too much for me. Alkaline buffer and equilibrium. Either way I didn't want to use chemicals to alter the ph because I felt like I could make a mistake or just kill them trying to balance it at some other number while its already balanced at 6.7. 

Basically my soil buffers 7.6 water to 6.7 water. Messing with that with chemicals bothers me.

Hopefully this raises the kh and gh slowly so I don't shock anything. Theres 7 shrimp left(one died today  ). The coral is basically pure calcium so just by it being in the water the shrimp will absorb some, and since I think they are dying of molting issues this should give them a better chance.

I felt this the most natural and faultless solution.









Hoping I don't notice if the babies die


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## ravensgate

pejerrey said:


> You don't want KH, if zero, the best.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> For cherries???? My KH has run between 4-18 with no real issues.
> 
> http://www.shrimpkeeping.com/


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## pejerrey

I just said that because I thought that the op was going to grab a alkaline buffer and use more chemicals. 

Crushed coral is the best, the KH from it is ok. Neos don't care much about KH but any shrimp IME seems to not like keepers that play mad scientist with buffers and stuff. 

I've kept them with Seriyu stones and KH 6 from it, no problem. But KH from seachem alkaline was not ok, at least that is what I believe caused me some deaths.

op: I'm glad that you don't like playing mad scientist. 

Just keep GH up.

And neos don't care much about ph swings, ferts nor co2 for the most part as long as is not a lot. 
IME they can be affected by lack of GH, using seachem buffers, other water conditioners that are not seachem prime and co2 injection without proper surface agitation thus suffocation.

It's difficult to kill them man.


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## theericafish

pejerrey said:


> I just said that because I thought that the op was going to grab a alkaline buffer and use more chemicals.
> 
> Crushed coral is the best, the KH from it is ok. Neos don't care much about KH but any shrimp IME seems to not like keepers that play mad scientist with buffers and stuff.
> 
> I've kept them with Seriyu stones and KH 6 from it, no problem. But KH from seachem alkaline was not ok, at least that is what I believe caused me some deaths.
> 
> op: I'm glad that you don't like playing mad scientist.
> 
> Just keep GH up.
> 
> And neos don't care much about ph swings, ferts nor co2 for the most part as long as is not a lot.
> IME they can be affected by lack of GH, using seachem buffers, other water conditioners that are not seachem prime and co2 injection without proper surface agitation thus suffocation.
> 
> It's difficult to kill them man.


I did some kh/gh tests right after adding the coral. Seems to be a slight difference but nothing huge.(Wasn't expecting a huge difference an hour later.. lol.)

I'll keep this thread updated as to whatever happens to the shrimp. Still could be an unresolved issue. Took a step in the right direction though. I'm off work tomorrow so I should be able to keep an eye on them.


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## pejerrey

Crushed coral brought KH and Ph up a tiny bit for me in 24 hrs but not the GH. 

So I guess the coral "I" used was different? Dunno. 

I ended up taking it out and using GH booster only. I use equilibrium and mosura mineral plus.

What water conditioner do you use? Seems like all shrimpers agree to use seachem prime. I was using tetra brand and the rillis I had were not doing good, as soon as I moved them to a tank that had only used prime they thrived. Not much of an experience to share but I thought I should point that out.


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## theericafish

pejerrey said:


> Crushed coral brought KH and Ph up a tiny bit for me in 24 hrs but not the GH.
> 
> So I guess the coral "I" used was different? Dunno.
> 
> I ended up taking it out and using GH booster only. I use equilibrium and mosura mineral plus.
> 
> What water conditioner do you use? Seems like all shrimpers agree to use seachem prime. I was using tetra brand and the rillis I had were not doing good, as soon as I moved them to a tank that had only used prime they thrived. Not much of an experience to share but I thought I should point that out.


I'm using prime. Anyway I guess we will see what happens. There's a new molt in the tank at the moment.


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## theericafish

No deaths today so far. The ph went up to ~7.1 the kh is 2 and gh is 5.

Looks like I'm experiencing similar results.

Water temp has been a solid 79 most of the day.

Definitely seeing a rise in kh, but the gh seems to remain the same or is rising slower.


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## pejerrey

Sounds great! Try to reach 6dgh!


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## theericafish

Another one is dying, definitely due to failed molting. Her back is slightly cracked but her legs are mostly paralyzed. I can see the mouth moving still but she seems unable to bust out of her shell.


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## theericafish

Will do full set of water tests to seen if anything has changed. Did a 2.5 gallon water change yesterday.


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## theericafish

*Water condition update:*

Ammonia:0
Nitrite:0
Nitrate:10
Ph:7.2/7.3(looks to be rising)Is blue in tint but still has a touch of teal.
Kh:2(when it turned yellow.. very light yellow)
Gh:6(when it turned green)

The kh was a lot more blue on the first drop than the first time we tested.
The gh is one higher than before.
Ph is going up but I think it may have to do with the water change yesterday.. 7.6ph tap water(dechlorinated of course)

Embers/galaxys acting normal.

6 remaining shrimp+4 babies.


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## jeremyTR

Your temps are super high imo.

I keep my shrimpies at a cool 74.


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## jeremyTR

Also, I don't even gh/kh test my tank and Ph floats around. 6.5-7.5

No deaths in a good while and plenty of baby shrimpies livin it up


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## jeremyTR

And calcium helps shrimps molt, maybe you need some more of it.


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## theericafish

What do you use for calcium? I've considered getting some for birds. Cuddlefish bone? Trying to get the temps down but its summer, my room stays pretty warm with no ac.


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## jeremyTR

Yea, that's what I've saw people suggest.


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## pejerrey

theericafish said:


> What do you use for calcium? I've considered getting some for birds. Cuddlefish bone? Trying to get the temps down but its summer, my room stays pretty warm with no ac.


That is the GH booster, you need calcium/magnesium. General hardness measures the calcium.

Your numbers look fine. Just wait now, but temp is too high.


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## theericafish

Ill see if I can get the temp lower with better airflow in the room. 76 would probably be the lowest I can go though.


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## pejerrey

Unplug the heater if you have one, I guess. I got a small USB fan from target, it was like 10 bucks and worked wonderful... The downer was that water evaporated too much.


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## jeremyTR

Do you have a fan blowing on the surface of your tank water?


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## acitydweller

theericafish said:


> What do you use for calcium? I've considered getting some for birds. Cuddlefish bone? Trying to get the temps down but its summer, my room stays pretty warm with no ac.


Calcium Bentonite Montmorillonite. Cuddlebone isn't really as effective unless it's pulverized.

If your shrimp are having molt problems, cut back on the water change interval to 3-4 weeks. Feed every third day, more frequent if the tank is lightly planted or immature. 

Keep the water temp under 77. Float a bag of ice cubes or frozen peas if necessary to cool the tank in an emergency.


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## theericafish

I don't think I can wait that long between water changes seeing as how there are fish in this tank also. Nitrate would probably be too high around that point?  It seems like the gh is going up with the coral "bones" in the filter. So that means calcium is going up?

I was thinking more along the lines of what to feed them to give them calcium. I was thinking of trying to feed them spinach.

Another one died, same situation. She just clinged onto the watersprite for a few hours looking like she was trying to molt, shell split slightly and then she just was stuck there and eventually died. There is 5 left + the 4 babies that are growing.

Since I had them 4 have molted successfully(I found 4 molts..). I'm starting to wonder if out of the 5 left 4 are ones that already molted.

There is plenty of food for them to eat in the tank, a bit of brown algae and java moss everywhere.

I do have some extra 80mm fans laying around and some power supplys.. I could probably turn that into a cooling system. I'm not really sure how much I like that idea though :x Might need to make some sort of mounting.


This is pretty frustrating, especially when I'm doing research online and people are saying they just plop theirs in and all is well :O. Its really no fun watching them die. At least my water conditions are somewhat ideal now, just need to get my temp down a bit. Also still worried I will hurt the fish in the process, although it seems fish can adapt to a wider range of conditions. At 6.7 my ph was near ideal for embers, now at ~7.2.

The only logical explanation is that acidic water+stress+low gh+being transferred into multiple water conditions just made them too weak to molt and I'm experiencing a die off. 

Sorry for the rant, all this is kind of painful T_T


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## Complexity

I read on another thread someone suggested feeding blanched kale for calcium. It was said that kale was much higher in calcium than spinach. Maybe it would be worth a try?

Found the post: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1972562


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## Shrimpaholic

Kale was suggested to me by another member of this forum because I noticed some of my Juvi's dying and upon closer observation they had areas that looked like failed molts. At the moment I am keeping my shrimp on a kale and spinnach diet. This will appearently resolve my molting issues.


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## acitydweller

If you cant bring your temps down, then no amount of calcium will stop the die off in your tank.


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## Complexity

acitydweller said:


> If you cant bring your temps down, then no amount of calcium will stop the die off in your tank.


I really don't understand everyone's concern over his 79° temps. We are talking about red cherry shrimp. I've had my colony of RCS in the same tank since Feb 2008 (over 4 years now), and my tank has always run hot.

I just took a picture of the thermometer, and it's showing to be much higher than 79°! Are my shrimp special somehow?


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## theericafish

Either way I got the temps down to 78, and thats at the peak heat of the day. so probably around 76/77 at night. At the moment all shrimp are acting normal, scavenging..

Its possible your water has more gh and maybe you are feeding a good diet? That way they can reproduce their shells fast enough to molt? 

I was guessing lowering the temp slowed metabolism and growth so the shrimp had longer periods of time to harden their internal shell before they molt and expose it.

So basically I extend my period of time to let the minerals do their work and harden the shrimps shells.

Different people have different shrimp from different conditions, seems to be no end all in what is right and what works.

That said I wish I could figure out whats wrong... ongoing experiment continues ...

Ps: I want to try kale or spinach but I guess Im freaking out about adding vegetables to the tank without knowing their origin completely. Pesticide/outside tank matter scares me :O


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## Complexity

I haven't tested my GH for 5 years (and that was at another location, but close enough to be on the same water supply). Our water supply has changed since that time. All I know we have hard water, so much so that I am constantly fighting mineral deposits on everything our water touches.

I do feed an excellent food. I have always fed them Shirakura food from Japan.

My main point is that I question the idea that all is a lost cause simply because your temps are as high as they are. I don't think it's that simple. It may be, as you suggested, a combination of the high temps forcing their metabolism to run faster which is exasperating the calcium deficiency.

I haven't had any problems feeding fresh food to my fish or shrimp. Obviously, you want to wash it first. I think if pesticides were a problem, you'd hear more people giving cautions when suggesting veggies. You could always try the organic section; although, since the term "organic" isn't well defined, it doesn't guarantee pesticides weren't used.


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## ravensgate

People raise RCS in outside tanks where the temps WELL exceed over 80 degrees in the water. I wouldn't be pointing my finger at the temps at all. It makes them grow faster, reproduce faster and does shorten their lifespan but a temp of 79 isn't going to be a dealbreaker with RCS in my experience.

As far as introducing veggies, here's how to try to keep it safe. Buy organic. Organic does NOT equal pesticide free (as Complexity mentioned). Sometimes it does, some times it doesn't. Systemic pesticides can not be washed off so you do want to avoid those. I buy organic baby spinach and organic kale. I use veggie wash (because I'm extra paranoid), rinse, then boil for 3 minutes, put through strainer. Separate into small pieces, put on a paper plate in the freezer for 20 minutes or so. This will keep them separate when you put them in a zilpock together. I never can cook ALL of the spinach or kale in one batch so I throw a lot away. I only freeze what I think will be about 6 months worth and then I'll do a fresh batch after 6 months. I also do organic zucchini this way. 

I also have hard water. I haven't tested GH or KH since the first couple of weeks so no clue where it is. I keep my TDS at about 195, if it goes over 200 I do a 10-15% water change. Otherwise I do RO or Distilled water topoffs. Sometimes I mix 75% RO/Distilled to 25% tap with a dechlorinator. I found the more I ignored the tank and stopped monkeying with it the better my shrimp did. I went from shrimp consistently dropping eggs within hours of being bred to 8 females being bred within 2 weeks and carrying to full term. I've got a tiny chunk of cuttlebone in their with them. But again, I have hard water. They are on Fluval Shrimp Stratum and that keeps my pH around 7.4 (was 8.4 before). If your GH/KH is low you will generally have molting problems which can lead to death. While you try to figure it out, feeding kale wouldn't be a bad idea since it's high in calcium (spinach will also work but kale has more nutrients overall).

ETA: Just saw the threads linked and info on the kale kinda sorta came from me. I won't take credit for it. I got the info on Shrimpnow while reading about failed molts (and seeing a few...looked like simple cracks in the shell). So I started feeding kale. And it stopped my issues. I got the failed molting problems from feeding too high of protein. If you're feeding Shrimp Cuisine or algae wafers or bloodworms/beefheart you could be having issues because protein is too high. I skimmed the thread super quickly to see if that was mentioned and didn't see it so if you've already gone over that I certainly apologize!


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## Complexity

Since you're concerned about feeding fresh veggies, you may want to consider using a shrimp food that's high in calcium.
This is a high calcium version of what I've always fed my RCS: Shirakura Ebi-Dama Special.

Oh, and it turns out someone is selling it in the for sale forum. :smile:


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## theericafish

Sounds like I'm going to pick up some spinach or kale tomorrow then. I have had success with algae wafers with my amano shrimp and my fish eat it also so it works out well in my other tank. 

Seems like a little natural calcium enriched food would do these guys some good. I may switch to shrimp food later but produce is a little more accessible at this point. 

Are the shrimp naturally attracted to eating the spinach and kale or do they need to be enticed?

Thanks for the detailed posts guys. Feeling a bit better about feeding them some produce. I'll try boiling it then cooling it down in the freezer or cold water before feeding, probably just a small amount to see if they want to eat it. Definitely feeling cautious of feeding the wafers with high protein at this point.









Anyway this is the tank


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## ravensgate

Mine are naturally attracted

Keep in mind, several sellers sell sample sizes of food on this forum ( I might have already mentioned that in this thread, if so, sorry for the repeat!). You can pick up LOTS of different premium food for under $15 and find out what your shrimp like and know you are giving them good food with lots of variety. h4n and PIC1 sell sample sizes...might be more sellers than that


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## theericafish

ravensgate said:


> Mine are naturally attracted
> 
> Keep in mind, several sellers sell sample sizes of food on this forum ( I might have already mentioned that in this thread, if so, sorry for the repeat!). You can pick up LOTS of different premium food for under $15 and find out what your shrimp like and know you are giving them good food with lots of variety. h4n and PIC1 sell sample sizes...might be more sellers than that


If I can't find it locally I'll check around on the site. Wouldn't mind supporting anyone if I have the chance


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## ravensgate

You won't find sample sizes locally more than likely. If you can then you WIN in the LFS department. LOL! I really don't recommend buying full sizes til you know if your shrimp will eat it. I've spent a bit of money on food my shrimp turn their noses up to. I'd rather lose $1 on a sample than $20 on a jar. Just saying I have probably a good 25+ samples of food here...some they love, some they don't. Helps figure out where to spend my money later


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## theericafish

ravensgate said:


> You won't find sample sizes locally more than likely. If you can then you WIN in the LFS department. LOL! I really don't recommend buying full sizes til you know if your shrimp will eat it. I've spent a bit of money on food my shrimp turn their noses up to. I'd rather lose $1 on a sample than $20 on a jar. Just saying I have probably a good 25+ samples of food here...some they love, some they don't. Helps figure out where to spend my money later


The lfs manager is actually a friend of mine so sometimes I get a good deal, free tweezers and I got the galaxy rasboras(celestial pearl danios w/e you want to call them) for about 5.50/ea which is a deal in my area.. they usually go for around 7$/ea. Unfortunately I had to buy the shrimp somewhere else because the store is less readily stocked.

Anywho, ill pick up some kale or spinach and try a feeding tomorrow and see how that goes.


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## Unikorn

*calcium source*



theericafish said:


> What do you use for calcium? I've considered getting some for birds. Cuddlefish bone? Trying to get the temps down but its summer, my room stays pretty warm with no ac.



What about travel feeders for calcium?


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## rodcuda

Not that I am saying it is good, but I am in florida and I have a 29g in my shop with no a/c and that tank goes from 78 at night to as high as 91 during the day and I have not lost a RCS from that tank and they are breeding in those conditions and do not seem stressed. So I would be relunctant to blame any losses on temps in the low 80s!!!!


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## pejerrey

rodcuda said:


> Not that I am saying it is good, but I am in florida and I have a 29g in my shop with no a/c and that tank goes from 78 at night to as high as 91 during the day and I have not lost a RCS from that tank and they are breeding in those conditions and do not seem stressed. So I would be relunctant to blame any losses on temps in the low 80s!!!!


 Hello, how is your surface agitation?


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## theericafish

Unikorn said:


> What about travel feeders for calcium?


I'll look into that too. Initial Google searches got me dog food bags :x


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## theericafish

rodcuda said:


> Not that I am saying it is good, but I am in florida and I have a 29g in my shop with no a/c and that tank goes from 78 at night to as high as 91 during the day and I have not lost a RCS from that tank and they are breeding in those conditions and do not seem stressed. So I would be relunctant to blame any losses on temps in the low 80s!!!!


As pejerry is getting at.. I've been led to believe that higher temps have a direct correlation to oxygen levels in the water and metabolism. I think I've decided water temp is only part of the issue at this point. Either way I'm going to keep the temp safely below 80.


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## rodcuda

It could definately be a contributing factor, just wanted to say that they can tolerate the higher temps. I am starting to think your shimp may have a bacterial infection induced by a depressed immune system from the stress of a changed enviroment. Maybe they had a rough time in shipment to the pet store and then another change coming home with could have been more than enough stress to cause an issue there. When other problems are ruled out, it is a viable explanation.


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## theericafish

Definitely a possibility. At this point I'm just trying to emulate perfect conditions to rule out as much as possible. Any and all information is useful at this point since Im a beginner at shrimp keeping


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## Shrimpaholic

theericafish said:


> Definitely a possibility. At this point I'm just trying to emulate perfect conditions to rule out as much as possible. Any and all information is useful at this point since Im a beginner at shrimp keeping


Have you eaten any shrimp lately? I found that when I eat any kind of shrimp, the next day I will almost always find a dead shrimp in my tank.


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## theericafish

Shrimpaholic said:


> Have you eaten any shrimp lately? I found that when I eat any kind of shrimp, the next day I will almost always find a dead shrimp in my tank.


Well that doesn't help me, I don't eat seafood at all . I picked up kale and a glass dish.


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## Complexity

I hope the shrimp go for the kale. But if they don't go for it immediately, don't give up too quickly. Sometimes it takes a little bit of time for shrimp to figure out that a new food is _food!_ Let us know how it goes. I hope they start to recover and do better for you.


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## Unikorn

theericafish said:


> I'll look into that too. Initial Google searches got me dog food bags :x


http://www.amazon.com/Hartz-Wardley-Weekend-Feeder-0-42-Ounce/dp/B0028JL3WA/ref=pd_sim_petsupplies_8


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## theericafish

I got home a little late yesterday so I didn't get to feed the kale yet. I did see a molt in the tank before going to bed though. Hopefully there's no corpses also :x. Will feed kale when I get off work today. Thanks for the link to the travel feeders also


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## theericafish

Just boiled the kale, its cooling off in the freezer and I'm going to store it in bags like suggested.









No takers yet! QQ

Kale in a glass dish held down by a marble.


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## randyl

I always over-cook my greens. I find shrimps like it that way much better, especially when newly introduced as food. If it's too tough to bite, they may lose interest and wander off after a while of trying.


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## plamski

I killed more than 300 RCS in past 2 years.I change 10000000 things but nothing helps. One day I just get tired and I did 90% WC with tap waterPH7.8-8.1, GH4, KH4.Sins then I have more than 200 in 6 months / start with 20-30/.

You should boil Kale for 15 min then freeze it for 30 min to get even softer. Then feed. At least my shrimps didn't touch it .


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## theericafish

Ah, I only boiled it for about 5 minutes, then left it in the freezer for 5. It seemed pretty soft, maybe not soft enough. They looked like they noticed it was in the water but none of them went on it so far.

I'll probably leave it overnight and remove it tomorrow morning if they don't eat it. Then I guess ill try again tomorrow after boiling longer I suppose.

Either way they have plenty of food to eat other than the kale(moss, diatoms, bits of flakes, and so on) so they wont starve...


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## pejerrey

plamski said:


> I killed more than 300 RCS in past 2 years.I change 10000000 things but nothing helps. One day I just get tired and I did 90% WC with tap waterPH7.8-8.1, GH4, KH4.Sins then I have more than 200 in 6 months / start with 20-30/.
> 
> You should boil Kale for 15 min then freeze it for 30 min to get even softer. Then feed. At least my shrimps didn't touch it .


I'll try that cuz when I gave them kale they looked at me like
"sup with u man? What the h**k is that? Ew! I'm better of eating some snail poo"

The snails eat some kale and shrimps ate their doo doo. 

Do you guys also find that young shrimp like to eat snail poo or is it just me?


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## acitydweller

If no one touches the food within an hour of feeding, remove it from the tank.

Why not just feed blanched spinach? Seems to be a popular choice amongst shrimp and snails alike.


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## theericafish

Well, I removed the kale from the tank. Will try again tomorrow with longer boiling/freezing. If that doesn't go well then blanched spinach it is.

So far its been 2 days with no deaths, I'm keeping my fingers crossed...


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## acitydweller

Progress is progress and your diligence will hopefully pay off. Btw, I just fed my tanks calcium and tend to do this with each water change. If you get calcium clay, it can be direcly added to the tank. Its the same stuff youll find in the borneo wild and mosura old sea mud products. Just need a few pinches for the entire tank. It's heavily used by koi keepers as well.

You could enjoy the hobby much more by not having to cook dinner for yourself and your shrimps each day... But you are a good shrimper I must say... I'll repeatedly test the water till The wee hours each night till I turn blue but I will only cook produce for them on the weekends. I have three dogs and three kids so time is scarce at best.


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## theericafish

acitydweller said:


> Progress is progress and your diligence will hopefully pay off. Btw, I just fed my tanks calcium and tend to do this with each water change. If you get calcium clay, it can be direcly added to the tank. Its the same stuff youll find in the borneo wild and mosura old sea mud products. Just need a few pinches for the entire tank. It's heavily used by koi keepers as well.
> 
> You could enjoy the hobby much more by not having to cook dinner for yourself and your shrimps each day... But you are a good shrimper I must say... I'll repeatedly test the water till The wee hours each night till I turn blue but I will only cook produce for them on the weekends. I have three dogs and three kids so time is scarce at best.


Don't get me started on water tests :O. Sometimes I wish the internet didn't exist so I wouldn't be able to look things up until my eyes bleed. I may try the clay route later, right now I feel the coral in the filter is enough(also feeling a bit cautious about changing things up before I know if its working or not). Haven't checked the gh and kh in 2 days, should probably do that tomorrow also.

Mainly the only reason I want to feed the kale or spinach is because i want to lower the amount of protein they consume. The wafers I was feeding had min. crude protein 35%. They also contained shrimp and krill.. cannibalism is NOT ok. 

My amanos have been fine on the wafers for a couple months(they eat flakes that the neons don't get along with algae.. and wood it seems). Ok I lied.. maybe cannibalism is ok sometimes.

Hopefully all this works out and eventually I can turn my 10g into a moss filled shrimp habitat. I've been interested in creating moss walls.

There can never be enough time, thats for sure.


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## Shrimpaholic

theericafish said:


> Don't get me started on water tests :O. Sometimes I wish the internet didn't exist so I wouldn't be able to look things up until my eyes bleed. I may try the clay route later, right now I feel the coral in the filter is enough(also feeling a bit cautious about changing things up before I know if its working or not). Haven't checked the gh and kh in 2 days, should probably do that tomorrow also.
> 
> Mainly the only reason I want to feed the kale or spinach is because i want to lower the amount of protein they consume. The wafers I was feeding had min. crude protein 35%. They also contained shrimp and krill.. cannibalism is NOT ok.
> 
> My amanos have been fine on the wafers for a couple months(they eat flakes that the neons don't get along with algae.. and wood it seems). Ok I lied.. maybe cannibalism is ok sometimes.
> 
> Hopefully all this works out and eventually I can turn my 10g into a moss filled shrimp habitat. I've been interested in creating moss walls.
> 
> There can never be enough time, thats for sure.


Haha! This forum and the very helpful members here are a godsend. My knowledge of shrimp has grown leaps and bounds on a daily basis because of TPT and it's members. I'm at the point where I test my pH 2 to 3 times a day, GH and KH once a day and TDS whenever I do top offs or anything to my tank. 

Your dilligence will pay off, just keep on keeping on


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## acitydweller

As a point of reference, if you have a small shrimp colony of 10 or so, feeding every three days is ok. If you have a colony of 200+, daily feeding may be necessary to ensure that everyone eats as the biofilm on the plants wont be sufficient to feed all the mouths. so if you have only a few shrimp, its okay to skip a day or two on feeds... 

I really hope you get to enjoy your shrimp and not have to baby them. Its not fun when your hobby becomes a chore. Oh i know this so well


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## ravensgate

Just like people some shrimpies don't like certain things. I boil my kale for 3 minutes and let cool. There is no reason to boil for a long amount of time. You start boiling really long and nutrients may be lost. You DO want it very soft so it is easier to eat. Not necessarily straight up mush, falling apart in your hands...just soft and easily torn. I only use the softest part of the kale to boil (like leaf edges or younger leaves). I toss the rest. 

A couple of things. All you need is ONE shrimp to notice the kale. When that shrimp starts munching they fling bits into the air. THAT will draw the others in at least it does for me. Do you always use the dish when you feed or is this the first time you have used a feeding dish? The first time I used a feedings dish it literally took 3-4 feeding before ANY of them figured it out. If you always use the feeding dish put a piece of food in the dish they DO like when you put the kale in. That will help them notice the kale and as shrimpies get knocked off their favorite food they might be more likely to give the new food a try.

Spinach is also good though I prefer baby spinach since it is softer. I recommend not giving up on the kale just yet, but entice them to the bowl. I have my shrimpies somewhat trained and every time I feed I tap the side of the tank. This tells them 'dinner is served'. I call them 'trained' because if I inadvertently tap the tank by accident, they start swimming frantically looking for their food dish. Certainly you don't need to _train_ your shrimps to eat, I've just found it helpful when feeding new foods. I tap the tank and they go to the dish to see what's in it. Before I'd just put food in there and it would sit for an hour before someone would wander by and notice it. 

And of course, there are many great dried foods on the market designed to help with molting that should be rich in calcium. So if they never go to the kale or to spinach, you have other options


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## theericafish

Thanks for the tips guys. I'm glad I stumbled upon this forum as well. I was thinking about adding a small piece of algae wafer to entice them to the kale, and yes its the first time using the dish, I left it in the tank so they can get used to it. 

My feeding schedule is every day or every other day for my fish with a day off at least once a week. I usually look at their size to judge feedings. I feed my amanos wafers every 2 to 3 days.

I'll try the enticement method today and see how that goes.

I must credit Dustin of dustins fish tanks for getting me into the aquarium hobby. Check out his videos on YouTube if you haven't already, very informative and entertaining.

Thanks for the encouragement guys(and girls).

I will definitely keep everyone updated


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## theericafish

NOMNOMNOM!



I put 1/4 of an algae wafer under the kale and removed it from the dish, I don't think they liked the texture. Still being held down by a marble though.

Boiled it for a long while and its pretty soft, they still seem like its a little hard to eat but are managing.

I got excited too fast, he only ate it for about 2 minutes and then stopped. Maybe its not soft enough :O


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## Complexity

Give it time. It's kind of like telling a kid to stop eating candy and eat some veggies. They may fuss a little at first, but if you keep at it, they'll adjust.


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## acitydweller

Wait, the tank is shared with fish and amanos? If you are feeding the tank other more enticing foods, I would skip kale myself if I were there... As much as I hate to admit it, protien foods will always be more interesting than spinach, kale and Brussels sprouts . Lol

If you stop feeding the tank for three days and drop kale, they'll devour it.


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## theericafish

I have 10 ember tetra/7galaxy rasbora/pond snails/2assassin snails/small rams horn?(round curled flat shells) in this tank.

I'm starting to think they may just not be hungry enough.

It had been about 3 days since I fed them last. But as you can see on the slate there's plenty of shrimp poops so they are definitely eating other things.

May try spinach and see if that interests them more. I let them eat the small bit of algae wafer but only 2 seemed interested out of the 5 adults and 4 babies.


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## Complexity

Have you been feeding any other food in the tank during this time? If so, you need to stop. The fish and snails will be fine without their normal munchies for awhile. Heck, a few veggies won't hurt their diet either. Stop feeding all food except the food you want the RCS to eat.

When you're not hungry, you can be picky about what you eat. When you are hungry, you will eat whatever is available, even kale.


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## acitydweller

Just to take this thread back on track and for closure, there has been no further deaths or failed molts right?


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## theericafish

acitydweller said:


> Just to take this thread back on track and for closure, there has been no further deaths or failed molts right?


Not in 4 days. And so far there's been one molt since they stopped dying. There were 4 molts before that and there are 5 adults left. Kind of leads me to thinking the ones that molted are the survivors. 

But since I can't say for sure, and it seems they molt on average once per week I won't know for sure for another week.

Most likely I will change the title of the thread and use this as my shrimps "journal"/information hub. Not sure on the rules of this sub forum and would not like to keep others from getting help but I consider the issue unresolved because I cannot say for sure whether more will die or not.

Will observe them tomorrow since it's my day off. One of my cats is terminally Ill with cancer so updates may come slowly. She's 19 and had a great life so no need to feel sad :0


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## theericafish

Complexity said:


> Have you been feeding any other food in the tank during this time? If so, you need to stop. The fish and snails will be fine without their normal munchies for awhile. Heck, a few veggies won't hurt their diet either. Stop feeding all food except the food you want the RCS to eat.
> 
> When you're not hungry, you can be picky about what you eat. When you are hungry, you will eat whatever is available, even kale.


Yes I've been feeding other food, the shrimp get little to no flakes though. Other than that they've been eating moss/diatoms I guess so I can't realty starve then into eating veggies.


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## ravensgate

theericafish said:


> She's 19 and had a great life so no need to feel sad :0



Not trying to derail but wanted to say we are about to have to say goodbye to my beloved Basset Hound due to cancer. He is only 7 though. We only have a week or so left I feel. My heart goes out to you as I'm in this same boat right now.:icon_cry:


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## theericafish

ravensgate said:


> Not trying to derail but wanted to say we are about to have to say goodbye to my beloved Basset Hound due to cancer. He is only 7 though. We only have a week or so left I feel. My heart goes out to you as I'm in this same boat right now.:icon_cry:


Internet group hug, sorry to hear that. When the time comes it always comes too soon. There's not much we can do.


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## theericafish

Came home to two new molts in the tank. Looking good so far..


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## Complexity

theericafish said:


> Came home to two new molts in the tank. Looking good so far..


That's great news! Let's hope they continue to do well. :smile:


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## acitydweller

sounds promising! fingers crossed for ya...


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## theericafish

QQ another one died, I think it was the last male. Same issue. I think I've narrowed it down now. I believe he was the one that was eating the small piece of algae wafer that I was using to entice them onto the kale. Can't say for sure but maybe the algae wafers are killing them.

I fed the wafer 2 days ago and he died today of the molting issue... 

The other shrimp are eating him, I guess I'm going to just let that happen.

I'm not sure what the next step to take would be. I guess I'm going to try feeding spinach or buy shrimp food or just stop feeding them anything.

Down to 4/12 

Good news is the babies are growing..


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## theericafish

My lfs only sells hikari shrimp pelets, they contain copper sulfate. Has anyone had experience with this food? I know shrimp are very sensitive to copper so I'm cautious. Also. Have not witnessed a proper molting, normally will the carapace under their current one also be red? All the ones that died had white under the red..


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## ravensgate

It's trace amounts and shrimp need it. There is a thread on here somewhere about Copper. Let me see if I can find it. Ah, here we go

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=178476&highlight=copper+myth


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## pejerrey

ravensgate said:


> It's trace amounts and shrimp need it. There is a thread on here somewhere about Copper. Let me see if I can find it. Ah, here we go
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=178476&highlight=copper+myth


 That is what I've read.


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## acitydweller

If you are referring to Hikari Shrimp Cuisine, Its rich in protein. Best fed scarcely, maybe once a week. Get some other veggie shrimp foods either online or through sns.


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## theericafish

ravensgate said:


> It's trace amounts and shrimp need it. There is a thread on here somewhere about Copper. Let me see if I can find it. Ah, here we go
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=178476&highlight=copper+myth


Thanks, I figured it would be OK considering it's on the market, but can never be too sure.


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## theericafish

acitydweller said:


> If you are referring to Hikari Shrimp Cuisine, Its rich in protein. Best fed scarcely, maybe once a week. Get some other veggie shrimp foods either online or through sns.


That was my second concern since I'm feeling the high protein may be the root issue.

Excuse the two posts, would have responded with one but the copy paste feature on my phone is being difficult :x


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## mjbn

I had molting problems a lot before, but I just bought Borneo Wild Spinach from H4n and seems things to be fine. Will also be updating specifically for your cause since we're in the same situation.

the shrimp also adjusted very easily to eating BW, I didn't have to force/entice them, they just pounced on it.


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## pejerrey

mjbn said:


> I had molting problems a lot before, but I just bought Borneo Wild Spinach from H4n and seems things to be fine. Will also be updating specifically for your cause since we're in the same situation.
> 
> the shrimp also adjusted very easily to eating BW, I didn't have to force/entice them, they just pounced on it.


I also got some from him and it's really good stuff. My shrimps love it. 

Haven't had molting issues tho.

(and don't tell anyone but I use seachem equilibrium as a GH booster for the most part... It's taboo)


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## Bananariot

rodcuda said:


> It could definately be a contributing factor, just wanted to say that they can tolerate the higher temps. I am starting to think your shimp may have a bacterial infection induced by a depressed immune system from the stress of a changed enviroment. Maybe they had a rough time in shipment to the pet store and then another change coming home with could have been more than enough stress to cause an issue there. When other problems are ruled out, it is a viable explanation.


+1 to this guy, I'll try to word my thinking and elaborate a little bit more

I've read this thread through and through, I seriously think it's a bacterial infection. 

The cherry shrimp were probably stressed through transport and possible conditions at the petstore. However, when it came home and went into your tank, they probably became even more stressed because of the fish that are present in your tank. (btw how did you acclimate your shrimp?)

80 degrees also becomes a perfect breeding ground for bacterial reproduction and at this point because of the decreased immunity, the shrimp could have succumbed to this. 

From what it seems like, your water parameters are fine for shrimp and even though protein diets can cause problems, it wouldn't be as radical and problematic in such a short time. 

Decreased temperatures and water changes probably cut down on bacterial reproduction and your shrimp probably was able to withstand the little infection it had. 

Molting problems....well its been documented that molting problems can be caused by bacterial infection, so even if your params are within the accepted values (which they are from what it seems), your shrimp may not molt because it's sick. 

My suggestions would be to....
*1. Reduce any stress factors*
1) If you want to keep shrimp, remove the tetras. CPD's are a toss up when it comes to eating shrimp but tetras will. Starve them just a bit and hyphessobrychon (same family as piranha) will start looking for other food sources.
2) Drip drip drip acclimate if you haven't done so already- a lot of people use plop and drop, which is viable for cherries but I would do whatever it takes to reduce stress
3) keep the temp in the mid 70's as you have done
4) Maintain a veggie diet
*2. Treat for bacterial infection in the tank*
1)Treat with paraguard or melafix, do a water change before hand then follow regiment.
3) Get a new batch of cherry shrimp, make sure there's none dead or have the "molting" issue in the tank when you purchase from your LFS

Hopefully your next attempt will be successful, best of luck!


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## theericafish

Sorry to bumb an old thread but the past weeks have been very busy. The 5 baby shrimp I had have reached adulthood and I now have 2 berried shrimp. Although there were many factors I think using coral in the filter gave the water enough kh and gh to help the shrimp survive. 11 of 12 adults died though and I think it was because of low gh/kh and overfeeding. I no longer feed the shrimp and they survive and thrive off of the moss and biofilm in the tank. As is everything, this is an ongoing experiment.


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## theericafish

Had 3 berried shrimp, at least one of them successfully bred. Have many babies now


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## acitydweller

to build on the positivity, you have a beautiful tank and a lovely home for these little guys. I wish that your colony comes back healthy and adds more color to the tank.


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## SpecGrrl

theericafish said:


> Had 3 berried shrimp, at least one of them successfully bred. Have many babies now


Congrats!


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## theericafish

acitydweller said:


> to build on the positivity, you have a beautiful tank and a lovely home for these little guys. I wish that your colony comes back healthy and adds more color to the tank.


Thanks  yeah I hope it takes off. Time will tell. 


SpecGrrl said:


> Congrats!


Thanks also 

Now I just need to wait for them to overpopulate so I can start another tank 

Thinking about mixing some taiwan reds in there to keep a more solid red color if breeding goes well.

We'll see what happens.

If I get some good pictures of the little guys Ill post em!


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