# Why "aren't" chemicals the answer?



## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

Every time I see someone with an algal problem everyone has these two answers: 

1. Your tank is not in balance you need to get it in check. 
2. Chemicals aren't the answer spot treat but maintain the "balance" first. 

Now I'm no jedi but I'm just curious...why _aren't _chemicals the answer in combating algae. A systemic treatment of chemicals could easily eliminate the algae problems and as long as no other filamentous algae are introduced to the tank via fish or plants (easily preventable) then the problem is done. And it's done for good. As they say with treating for ich: An ounce of prevention is a pound of cure. 

I think one of the reasons we shun chemicals is because well...we call them chemicals. We call fertilizers fertilizers since they fertilize! Ohhh that sounds green and nice. But in essence they are chemicals. And they are chemicals that are actually potentially hazardous to us people. Why don't we call algae treating chemicals something like "phytocontrol" or something? 

But aside from that I also believe it's because of the whole mentality of "this is slice of nature. It is a *nature aquarium*." But when you look at botanical gardens on land when you have a problem with scale? You spray it. You have a problem with aphids? You spray it. Mites? spray. Termites? Spray. Ants? Spray. Beetles? Spray. We don't seem to care on land as much as we do with our aquariums. Certainly we do have *fish *in there but there are chemicals specifically designed to be fish safe. Surely it shouldn't be dosed as it would a fertilizer but "phytocontrol" agents could easily become a part of a monthly regimen after the first systemic dose (which can be done with the fish removed) that's not only easy on fish but would be able to keep algae down. I like making life easier and sometimes the "balance" isn't as easy as killing your dad.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If the tank isn't in balance, then algae will be an ongoing problem. One species will just be replaced by another, then another... algae spores are in the air so it's impossible to eliminate them completely.

Most algaecides are band-aids at best, and often can cause other problematic chemical changes that can compromise water quality. Many are pretty bad for livestock health.


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

Yes but how many problem species of algae are there? Maybe 5-6? I'm talking about BBA, staghorn, oedogonium, spirogyra and the like. GDA, diatoms, and GSA are all easily solved with simple adjustments. However these filamentous types are a very permanent fixture in a tank once established. On top of that they are very hard to introduce via spores and instead normally colonize from cells hitchiking on something. A systemic dose would wipe out (it can also be done successively) each species of nuisance algae and while the tank may be "out of balance" there will be no one to fill the niche. Or rather no one glaringly visible.


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## HypnoticAquatic (Feb 17, 2010)

there are several reasons off the top of my head, the chemicals are not a cure as mite spray is not a fix its a bandaid to the problem if u stop it will instantly come back thus not a answer but a simple aid to help so the key would be find the problem an fix at the source instead of where u see it as it can and will be very costly in the long run. also if u go look at excel its very very dangerous to fauna if not dosed correctly so its better to not take the risk of killing all fauna which for some can be thousands of dollers also proving a ounce of prevention is worth it unless your pockets are that deep most of ours are not. all of the things u want can be done with out these bandaids just takes time an practice to get it right so why throw ur money to nothing im sure there are much better things u could do with it but to each his own..


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

I recommend the usage of excel or h2o2 to "eradicate" algae all the time. But if you do not have a proper balance afterwards, it is pointless as you'll just have to do it again. 

The common "algaecides" available in stores usually kill plants too. 

Too much light, too little co2, and too little ferts are the problem 99% of the time. If you keep them unbalanced, you'll fight a million battles and never win the war. 


I think sometimes you need to "kill" the problem or you'll never eradicate it. For instance, my BBA is invincible. It takes very high glut concentrations to kill. H2o2 has done nothing. But if I get most of it and stay on top of it, I can prevent it from coming back. But if I get everything "right" it will not just go away on its own... ime.


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

I think the method with which we use chemicals is undeveloped or rather "uncouth." Yes in large doses they are bad. Anything is bad in large doses. Even puppies. But I think that there is a solution out there easier than the ones we so religiously hold on to. The methods we adhere to shouldn't be dogma. There are other solutions out there but I just perceive a "holier than thou" attitude when it comes to dealing with someone using chemicals as a solution. 

The fact that people think there's no chemical solution is because people seem to revile the solution. I know at least one person who successfully keeps their tank **** and span with the light spraying of excel on surfaces during water changes. There are other ways to go about this problem. Yes balancing is probably the best answer. But there ARE other solutions. 

I agree with hydrophyte fully here. A combination of very regular killings and adjustments is the MOST effective way to deal with algae. And it's probably the perfect way to go about it. But something as simple as a mister full of excel can go a long way in dealing with spot algae and filamentous on leaves. If we put in algae control WITH our regimen rather than letting the problem come to fruition and then doing massive adjustments and killings over months life would be easier...the problems if they do occur would be less apparent and would fade much quicker. 

I'm also curious if anyone has tried any of the new plant derived algaecides. Apparently they're very safe in large quantities to fish AND plants but specifically target algae. I know ADA has been selling them for awhile but at a HUGE premium like with all their stuff but I think recently some other brands have been putting out a comparable product for much less. 

As soon as someone makes a systemic cure for algae I really do hope to see this whole holistic "balance is key" thing to fade away.


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Jeffww, that is a very good topic.



Jeffww said:


> A systemic treatment of chemicals could easily eliminate the algae problems and as long as no other filamentous algae are introduced to the tank via fish or plants (easily preventable) then the problem is done. And it's done for good.


Unfortunately that approach doesn't apply to all algae. Let me provide two constrasting examples:

*BGA* (which technically isn't an algae at all, but a photosynthetic bacterium) can be easily and completely eradicated from an aquarium using erythromycin. If eradicated, it will never return - even if conditions are perfect - unless reintroduced.

Back when I joined this forum seven years ago, it was seriously frowned on to use erythromycin. Use the natural approach instead. Eliminate dead spots with low oxygenation by improving flow, increase nitrates, and use a three day blackout.

The problem is it often didn't work. Some people kept doing blackouts over and over, and the BGA wouldn't be killed or would rapidly reappear; while the plants suffered progressively more with each blackout, leading to other problems. It was a sad situation really, and I sympathized with the frustration of everyone who went through this.

The natural approach just isn't very practical. There is nothing magic about three days of darkness that guarantees 100% BGA kill. Furthermore, there is no such thing as an aquarium without dead spots; show me one, and I'll show you an empty tank! Yet people defended this approach to the end.

Fortunately, erythromycin is more acceptable today. But look how long it took to gain the current level of acceptance.

*GSA* is different. It cannot be totally eradicated from an aquarium by any means that will leave anything else left alive. If the aquarium becomes "unbalanced", it will always rapidly return without reintroduction. Or perhaps it's so pervasive in the environment surrounding the aquarium, that it is constantly reintroduced; same end effect.

Assuming there is some chemical that will successfully control GSA in an aquarium, it would have to be used constantly. That is obviously undesirable, because all algeacides are toxins by nature. It's just that they're slightly more toxic to undesirable life, so by using them at the correct dosage, we can kill selectively. But increase the dosage, and everything dies; or use them for too long, and there are likely cumulative health issues for your livestock.

*What about the other algae?* Let's assume most can be truly eradicated. They will not come back unless reintroduced. To avoid reintroduction, you must never import any new plants to the tank.

I operated in a vacuum like this for years, and found that I had actually seemed to eradicate several algae types I previously had through natural means alone (good balance). Of course, sometimes I'd mess up. But no matter how far I let the balance slip, the only thing that appeared was GSA and GDA; and a bit of BBA on hardscape, but never on plants.

Of course, eventually I wanted some new plants. And they contained several new types of algae. Some of them appear to have been truly eradicated. But to this day, whenever I slip badly, Staghorn also pays a visit.



Jeffww said:


> But aside from that I also believe it's because of the whole mentality of "this is slice of nature. It is a *nature aquarium*."


"Natural" is a banner that people wave, without truly understanding. Yes, the plants and animals in our tanks are from nature. And yes, they have natural needs, which we fulfill. Furthermore, by taking advantage of certain natural interactions, we can have more stable, maintenance-free, enjoyable tanks.

However, how often do you hear:

_"We should emulate nature as closely as possible!"_

Or:

_"We should do this or that because that's how it works in nature, so it should work in our tanks!"_

I tell them go ahead. Let your tank freeze over in the winter. Randomize the lighting schedule to account for overcast conditions. Change water at random to account for rain. Let fish breed to overpopulation. Let disease run its course without medication. Make sure every flora/fauna combination in your tank is one found in a natural ecosystem, rather than cherry-picked from various habitats from around the world. Try to set up a self-sustaining ecosystem in a tiny glass box so you don't have to add any food. Don't ever trim the plants. And let algae grow at will.

The truth is, every one of us bends nature to our will in our tanks to achieve a desired effect, far more than we care to admit.

They have no answer for that other than ignoring it and continuing to cry "Natural is good! Natural is beautiful! Natural is best!" And dealing with that kind of pervasive ignorance and dogma is quite irritating.

Especially when it blocks progress and enjoyment of the hobby.

As an example, take Algaefix. I admit it's a pretty nasty algaecide. It kills algae. It kills shrimp. It sometimes even kills fish. But the bias and outrage against its use is so great that people won't even consider alternate uses.

I was faced with the task of saving a mass of java moss infested with invasive cladophora. That algae is tough. It isn't killed by any dose of H2O2 or Excel that won't also kill the moss. It also thrives in the same conditions as plants, so it can't be cured by balance.

Faced with the prospect of throwing all my moss out, I hit on a new idea of using Algaefix outside the tank, as a dip. The result was dead clado, java moss in perfect health. And no risk to my fish, since it was never used in the tank. Since then, I've found the same method works equally well on some other algae as well.

So I've discovered a very useful dip, which is spectacularly effective against many algae. It doesn't damage plants like other dips frequently do. It can be used to salvage plants that are normally unsalvageable, or to remove algae from new plants before they are introduced to your tank. You'd think people would be all over that, like my idea to use Excel as a spot treatment (yep, I introduced that). Right?

Wrong. I drop the suggestion every few months. It's not catching on. Algaefix=bad!

Oh well. Maybe in another seven years?


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## im2smart4u (Dec 7, 2010)

Dark Cobra, I never thought of using algaefix as a dip. I currently have a huge mass of algae infested java moss that I want to put in a different tank, but I have been afraid of introducing the algae to the tank as well. I am going to have to try the dip in a separate container like you suggest. I was dreading having to throw the whole mess of java moss away.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Jeffww said:


> Every time I see someone with an algal problem everyone has these two answers:
> 
> 1. Your tank is not in balance you need to get it in check.
> 2. Chemicals aren't the answer spot treat but maintain the "balance" first.
> ...


They do not grow plants...which is why folks have bad algae issues, they are not focusing or have a simplistic view about what grows plants.

It's ironically pretty simple, name one person who got into planted tanks to learn the algicidal methods available?

The goal is to grow a nice garden, not learn how to kill algae.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

DarkCobra said:


> J
> Wrong. I drop the suggestion every few months. It's not catching on. Algaefix=bad!
> 
> Oh well. Maybe in another seven years?


Heck, hopefully by then you learned how to grow plants.roud:

Then algae is a non issue.

I have told folks for the last 15 or more years, Amano tells folks the same thing, so do folks in the know.........when the plants dominate and needs are truly met......algae is a non issue. Poor horticulture is why folks have pest and algae. This is a simple and profound philosophy, crutches do help you learn good horticulture, it's that simple. 

Bleach dips, salt dips, H2O2....etc etc........ everyone is looking for a magic cure, yet they cannot see the forest between all the trees. I've used many herbicides and algicides over some 30+ years, they have never helped me. Not in the long run.

They have not taught me anything worthwhile or helpful for horticulture........just a band aid at best.

Do some of the products kill algae? Sure....but they NEVER will grow plants.
(Excel is the only exception to the rule.) When the plants do not grow optimally, then we end up with algae. When plants grow optimally, then we can garden and have the tank we had originally wanted.

No pill, algicide, chemical will fix that issue. Get to the root and the cure, not the easy quick fix.


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

im2smart4u said:


> Dark Cobra, I never thought of using algaefix as a dip. I currently have a huge mass of algae infested java moss that I want to put in a different tank, but I have been afraid of introducing the algae to the tank as well. I am going to have to try the dip in a separate container like you suggest. I was dreading having to throw the whole mess of java moss away.


Use a three day dip at the recommended dose. For 1G water, that's 0.1ml Algaefix. Too small to measure! So dilute and discard some of it. For example, if you have a vial marked at 1ml intervals, mix 1ml Algaefix and 9ml water, shake well, discard (or store) 9ml of the mix, and use the remaining 1ml; which now contains 0.1ml Algaefix.

Please let me know how it works, success or failure.


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> Heck, hopefully by then you learned how to grow plants.roud:


Yep, and I have you to thank for that. 

But I learned to kill algae elsewhere. The two skills complement each other, rather than being mutually exclusive. Fix the root of the problem first if possible so it doesn't recur. Then fix the problem fast or slow. Your choice.

And there's always the odd problems like the clado in the java moss that nothing else will solve or prevent. Every tool and technique has value in the right situation. Keep trying new stuff!


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

DarkCobra said:


> Yep, and I have you to thank for that.
> 
> But I learned to kill algae elsewhere. The two skills complement each other, rather than being mutually exclusive. Fix the root of the problem first if possible so it doesn't recur. Then fix the problem fast or slow. Your choice.
> 
> And there's always the odd problems like the clado in the java moss that nothing else will solve or prevent. Every tool and technique has value in the right situation. Keep trying new stuff!


 
I believe from past expieriences, that product Erythromycin to treat BGA which as you say is a form of bacterium, will also have negative effect on biological filter if used in the aquarium.
It makes no distinction between good,and bad bacteria.
Also believe that if light,CO2,and nutrient's are available in proper proportion's for particular application, then there is little need for chemical treatment's inside or outside the aquarium for there will be little algae to warrant the use of chemical's.
I agree with Tom Barr. Learning to grow aquatic plant's is much easier than fighting Algae. I believe folk's with high tech tank's,, where thing's happen at much accelerated rate,often panic at first appearance of algae and rather than look at CO2 distribution,flow,lighting period and or intensity,or nutrient deficiencies(sp) they focus on quick dips ,spot treatment's,alagcides, blackout's etc.
Folks with low tech tank's where thing's happen at much slower rate, and where CO2 is limited, along with demand for nutrient's, and much less light,, are often out of necessity,,, forced to focus on what is truly effective over the long haul, Plant growth.
Just my opinion from the low tech side of thing's.


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

Has anyone tried a spot dose of erythromycin? It seems a much more controlled method


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Band-aids are great to stop the bleeding, but not the ultimate answer unless you are fond of buying them. Eventually, you should ask yourself, why do I keep needing to use these crutches? Do I want to keep using them? If your tank is in disrepair, H202, erythromycin, excel overdosing, phosphate limitations all may help remedy the algae short term, but if you don't know why it's happening it will return. I really think that is what people are trying to point out. 

My philosophy is this: _Use what works for you_. If you like using a particular method to combat algae when it crops up, then use it. Don't worry about what others say, it's your tank and at the end of the day, it's what makes YOU happy that is important. I suspect there are many "algae band-aid appliers" out there that are just too intimidated to acknowledge their dirty little secret. 



Jeffww said:


> Has anyone tried a spot dose of erythromycin? It seems a much more controlled method


I would STRONGLY recommend against doing this. Period. The reason being erythromycin is a medication, an antibiotic. If you use it haphazardly, you will end up creating super-strains of BGA and diseases. This should be treated with the utmost respect and not used in similar fashion as excel. Think of how many strands of viruses are now immune to penicillin because of the massive misuse of the drug.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

sewingalot said:


> I would STRONGLY recommend against doing this. Period. The reason being erythromycin is a medication, an antibiotic. If you use it haphazardly, you will end up creating super-strains of BGA and diseases. This should be treated with the utmost respect and not used in similar fashion as excel. Think of how many strands of viruses are now immune to penicillin because of the massive misuse of the drug.


I agree with this 1000%.



Jeffww said:


> As soon as someone makes a systemic cure for algae I really do hope to see this whole holistic "balance is key" thing to fade away.


Balance IS the systemic cure for algae! lol 

I'm not against using algaecides alltogether. I agree with DarkCobra that there can be a time and a place for them. I dose Excel on several of my tanks a few times a year to kill off the algae that grows on the tops of my taller plants when they get up too close to the light. I DON'T like using Excel on a regular basis as it's shown to build up and cause molting problems in shrimp, however.

I'd personally rather find ways to nip a problem in the bud and not have to continually waste time and $$ nuking my tank and fighting with constant algae outbreaks. Bring a tank into BALANCE and you don't have to worry about it. 

My 29gal is my little "poster child" at the moment. It's at my husband's office and I've literally seen it twice this year. It's bopping along happily all on its own, only thing I've done is 2 trims, cleaned the filter, and a few water changes. One of his employees feeds the critters and tops off the tank when needed. And it looks great with only a tiny bit of clado, mostly growing in the driftwood. Ammonia and nitrites always test 0, nitrates are always around or under 5ppm. Plants are growing well but not so quickly that they've needed trimming more than the 2x this year I've been there to do that, and they look really good other than the Hygro kompakt probably could use some potassium (old leaves get pinholes). Tank's been set up and stable for 2 years like this thus far.

(forgive the awful cell phone pic- this was a few weeks ago)


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

What I am really seeing here is that you somehow think this is some "holistic" approach to aquariums. 

There is no quackery here. Science and repeatable results show us that balancing the system works. 

This isn't like balancing your chi and your fenq shui. This has nothing to do with "balance" and everything to do with a REAL, physical balance. 

NON LIMITING CO2 And Ferts and LIMITING light is the systemic cure to algae. I'm not sure why that scares you more than dumping toxic chemicals into your tank, but it must.

The chemical fertilizers we use in our tanks have a much higher toxicity level. CO2 is easily toxic, but if you are responsible you'll be ok. The problem with willy nilly algaecide dosing is it will just make the problem worse in the long run. Creating super-bugs and resistant algae strains isn't the answer...


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## jaybugg13 (Sep 4, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> They do not grow plants...which is why folks have bad algae issues, they are not focusing or have a simplistic view about what grows plants.
> 
> It's ironically pretty simple, name one person who got into planted tanks to learn the algicidal methods available?
> 
> The goal is to grow a nice garden, not learn how to kill algae.


Nuff said :smile:


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

I'm questioning not so much the method of "balance" but rather our views or disposition to it. We treat it like it is the _only_ answer to our problems. We despise all other answers. Yes dosing random algaecides is going to be bad but as long as we keep on saying "balance is the only answer" we'll never know the alternatives and we'll never know what's a "good" algaecide dosage. And also I think everyone is under the assumption that I'm attempting this myself. No. I am not. I don't really have any algae issues so to speak right now. I'm just exploring other methods. The moment we stop exploring other possibilities is the moment I quit this hobby and it's the moment I think it's dead. I find that on this forum in particular people hold on to "less light and more co2" rather dogmatically. People are always saying *balance* but balance what? Balance light and co2? To what extant? Why does this affect algae in any way? Yes Co2 is complete and utter guesswork and to a certain extant it's light and it probably _is_ easier (but slower). 

Again I'm not so much questioning the method of balancing but questioning the _mentality_ of the "balancer." And yes we all want to learn to grow plants. But at a certain point of experience you can just grow about anything. I'm just exploring other methods and techniques. Growing plants doesn't mean you can't learn to kill algae. My philosophy isn't "maintain the balance." But really question "what's the point?" When I questioned the water changes in EI. I stopped doing water changes. There wasn't so much a problem with plant deficiencies as much as there was that the tank just looked dirty. There are unexpected problems with any method and as long as we just scoff and say: This is the right way any other way is wrong we'll never advance as a hobby.

Just as a tangent I really think we've developed a Japanese air to this hobby. It's an almost xenophobic disgust to any contradictory statements against the traditional method. Perhaps this is just because we know X works so why bother with Y. But in my mind it's more of a trickling down of philosophy and character from one of the "greats" in aquascaping.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

The current traditional method, is not the old traditional method, and the one before that wasn't the old traditional method either.
Things change all the time when there is good reason to do so, but if what you're doing now works better than what you can start doing tomorrow, why bother? 
Its not X works so forget Y. its X works, Y is more work, and works worse, so forget Y.

Algaecides can only work on so many different pathways - most pathways that kill algae kill plants. 
Many Algaecides are not powerful enough to take care of an imbalanced tank, and to make them powerful enough kills plants. 

If you can keep things close to balanced, a little excel will go a long way. 
There is not going to be a cure-all for a tank that gets minimal TLC - thats a very American way of things, and in contrast to the "Japanese air" most of us have adapted, its far less rewarding, and far more wasteful. 

I prefer to put effort into making my plants healthy and my water clean - I want an idyllic ecosystem like nothing you could find in nature. 
Would you rather have a home that never smells bad because you keep it clean, or do you want to spray febreeze every day? Bad analogy I know =] 

Believe me, I wish there was something I could do to get rid of whatevers eating my HC.


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

There have been a number of comments in this thread that I don't necessarily agree with, but haven't replied to directly, as they're still good comments and express valid and respectable opinions.

Rather, I'd like to say this. In my mind, the priorities are:

1) Balance, proper parameters, and normal maintenance, so that plants can grow vigorously and healthy.
2) Direct treatment of algae.

If #1 is done properly, then you will RARELY have an algae problem, so any need to even consider #2 is infrequent; then it is not a constant or even frequent demand on the hobbyist, as some imply. But note that I do not say NEVER. You WILL eventually fail at least temporarily on #1, and algae will result; whether it be due to a simple mistake, laziness, distractions, children wanting to "help", vacations and well-meaning (but incompetent) caretakers, hospitalization of yourself or a loved one, etc.

Your first order of business must always be to attempt to correct #1, the root issue.

However, that does not eliminate the existing algae, at least not immediately. Your options for that are any combination of the following:

1) Allow the algae to slowly die off naturally over a period of a week or more, during which time the plant is still parasitized; although if your assessment/correction of the problem was wrong, algae will instead progress exponentially while you try to figure it out.
2) Trim away the infected growth. Depending on the amount of algae, this could be a trivial amount, enough of one or more plants to delay or prevent its recovery, or enough to require total rescape and replacement.
3) Or treat the algae directly, salvaging as much of the plants as possible, and speeding their recovery by removing the parasitic algae quickly.

And here's the part I just don't get.

The people who say that the health, growth, and mass of plants in their tanks is of utmost importance, are the same who will gladly let them continue to be parasitized (#1), or chop them up and discard them (#2). But they are reluctant or unwilling to consider or suggest #3, the option that can often return plants to health most quickly!

That is a fundamental contradiction to me.

When I occasionally slip up, I first correct the problem. Then, if I feel that directly attacking the algae can be accomplished safely and will return my plants to health faster than other approaches, then that's exactly what I do. 

And what if I, or any number of struggling newcomers, are willing to _attempt_ to correct the problem, but are simply _unable_ to immediately identify and correct it? Use a "crutch". Despite this common nickname, there is no dishonor in it; no Japanese tenet of aquaculture that requires you to immediately fall upon your blade for such an unnatural act. Yes, the algae will usually come back. That's GOOD. That nature's little reminder that you still have a problem. You have another opportunity to correct it. And you've bought yourself time, which if you've spent wisely, gives you an opportunity to research and learn, save up money for a proper pressurized CO2 system or whatever equipment is needed, etc. The alternative, avoiding "crutches", is nothing more than letting algae run rampant while you work things out; leading only to more expenses, more imbalances, more frustration. There is no honor or wisdom in that.

There will always be people who use "crutches" continuously, rather than addressing the root problem. If they abuse this knowledge, I say that is their problem, not ours. Neither our community, nor any other, can limit themselves to knowledge safe for the lowest common denominator; and still hope to excel and advance.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Is my view that assimilating measured opinion's is a good thing. And it then becomes a matter of weighing the option's that one has, or is willing to apply.
For myself,, Having expierienced what seemed to be all algae known to exist in planted aquaria in my early year's, and trying all of the remedies that are still practiced today,, 
it was not until I trained my effort's on fundamental's of plant growth that my effort's were rewarded.
I have many to thank here, as well as other plant forums and oddly enough.. and with great joy, I was able to retire the crutches,chemical's for the algae problem's no longer threatened ,cursed me. 
To me,, it is not unlike those who use all mannner of medication's to treat sick fishes with varying degree's of success.If you don't improve the fishes enviornment,,medication's will be of little use.
If you train your effort's on learning to keep water ,,there is little need for most medication's.
Same thing applies to growing plant's in my view. Train your effort's on enviornment that will benefit plant growth,and the need for algaecides,blackout's,spot treatment's,dips,etc are near non existent.
Takes sustained effort,willingness to listen,learn.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

DarkCobra said:


> And here's the part I just don't get.
> 
> The people who say that the health, growth, and mass of plants in their tanks is of utmost importance, are the same who will gladly let them continue to be parasitized (#1), or chop them up and discard them (#2). But they are reluctant or unwilling to consider or suggest #3, the option that can often return plants to health most quickly!
> 
> That is a fundamental contradiction to me.


There is a time delay between the trim and the recovery, the algae is now gone and while biomass is low, so is algae biomass:icon_idea
the relative % is less for the algae, but as long as 
good care, frequent water changes and work are done after the algae bloom........then the system can have restore ecosystem functioning.
ADA espouses this, as do I and anyone else worth their salt.

I might even toss out the entire batch of weeds and start with fresh plants from another tank etc.

Sometimes it's not worth messing with, eg: moss infested with green algae.
Maybe pick a small amount very very clean and restart.

My issues are more with pest plants: Bladderwort, Riccia, moss, duckweeds......no cure but labor and trimming for those.:icon_evil



> When I occasionally slip up, I first correct the problem. Then, if I feel that directly attacking the algae can be accomplished safely and will return my plants to health faster than other approaches, then that's exactly what I do.


I do not think there is anything wrong per se with your suggestions here, but the focus is still on growing the plants, that goal never changes.

A dip or a spray to kill some small amount of algae? No issues, I still do not bother, I just trim since.......as you suggest....it's just a small amount correct? Large amounts of algae are more plant growth issues no?

Again, we cannot have it both ways, a trim will take care of small amount, but the issue is more growth related otherwise for the bad infestations.

Excel dosing I have no issues with, but folks over dose this stuff often and kill livestock often it seems. It grows plants though.........I would say folks think that more is better and that they are very impatient with resolving their algae issues, and anything something seems to work fast.......it's typically some other cause. Hobbyists, we like to rush to judgment:tongue:



> And what if I, or any number of struggling newcomers, are willing to _attempt_ to correct the problem, but are simply _unable_ to immediately identify and correct it? Use a "crutch".


But as someone helping them.....should be keep telling them to do this, or find the underlying root cause so they can garden better? Or both? I might tell them to use Excel....... I suppose lower light is also an aligcide as well.
Or good CO2?

Adding enough ferts?

I generally tell them to do a little of both, not just one thing, but I still focus mostly on growing plants, not killing algae. 

Newbies are very likely to look for algae cures.............rather than fixing the root issues, we all have done this path to some degree.........and if you can produce a nice looking tank today....then you know it was 95% growing the plants, and very little chemical cures for algae........... Are we being honest with what helped us be successful here????
Chemical control: under 1% for myself.



> There will always be people who use "crutches" continuously, rather than addressing the root problem. If they abuse this knowledge, I say that is their problem, not ours. Neither our community, nor any other, can limit themselves to knowledge safe for the lowest common denominator; and still hope to excel and advance.


Yea, at 1st glance this sounds all warm and furry........but then these same folks run around *telling every other newbie to do the same cotton picking thing.*.........and then you end up with folks not growing plants very well if at all..and spouting off how great chemical controls are.........

We do not exist in isolation and ignoring them ain't going to make the issue go away:icon_idea
We have to follow the advice up with good focus on root issues and while they will tell others about the silver bullet............there is more to helping them achieve their goal than merely having the algae gone.
So other folks can post about growing plants better, add more plant biomass, CO2, light, algae eaters, and not just the quick......the easy..."add a pill or 5 mls of this and you will be cured and Angels will sing from Heaven." type response. 

Many do not want to prune and trim, that takes work, many are not familiar with pruning. Good care really is most of the answer here. Put another way: I do not get algae in my tanks because I fail to add algicides:tongue:
I think teaching them more about growing plants, gardening, scaping and care is a better approach, they will get a lot more from it and stay in the hobby longer/be happier. Simply treading water by not having algae is not the best goal(but better than the alternative of having algae). We wish to garden and scape and grow plants. Why settle for less? Non CO2 methods have a very high success rate also, so I often try to match the goal with the management method. 

I think given the alternative of having algae or not, then you can make the case for chemicals in some cases. But most all of the effort should be teaching to focus on the plants. No pill or miracle in a bottle will teach anyone good horticulture or how to scape well.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

roadmaster said:


> Is my view that assimilating measured opinion's is a good thing. And it then becomes a matter of weighing the option's that one has, or is willing to apply.
> For myself,, Having expierienced what seemed to be all algae known to exist in planted aquaria in my early year's, and trying all of the remedies that are still practiced today,,
> it was not until I trained my effort's on fundamental's of plant growth that my effort's were rewarded.
> I have many to thank here, as well as other plant forums and oddly enough.. and with great joy, I was able to retire the crutches,chemical's for the algae problem's no longer threatened ,cursed me.
> ...


I'm in this same boat. Most are that have done a decent measure of success in the hobby.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I'm sure somebody mentioned this but the 'answer' is LIGHT... Got algae? Remove, clean, and reduce the light in addition to provide CO2 and nutrients for the plants.


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Plantbrain, I couldn't agree with you more! Although I question this:



plantbrain said:


> Yea, at 1st glance this sounds all warm and furry........but then these same folks run around *telling every other newbie to do the same cotton picking thing.*.........and then you end up with folks not growing plants very well if at all..and spouting off how great chemical controls are.........


Yes, we need to state and _stress_ that good plant husbandry is always the top priority, to hopefully discourage this kind of behavior.

But it's also possible to stress that _too much_. Enough that we can come across as harsh, unreasonable, biased, and unwilling to consider any alternative. If as a result, those people simply turn their back on us instead, then we have no further hope of doing any good for them; which is contrary to what we're trying to achieve. They will forever keep doing things the wrong way, and telling others that's proper.

Of course, some people are just hopeless. But if even _one_ person who is trying hard to do things the right way, and just hasn't succeeded yet but has the potential, turns their back on us for every _ten_ hopeless people, then I think that is the greater loss in a hobby as small as ours.

Part of the issue is that we too frequently speak in absolutes. If your tank is balanced, you will NEVER get algae. Algaecides are NEVER the solution. And, to borrow a quote:



mistergreen said:


> I'm sure somebody mentioned this but the 'answer' is LIGHT... Got algae? Remove, clean, and reduce the light in addition to provide CO2 and nutrients for the plants.


Anotherwards, light reduction is ALWAYS the answer.

Regardless of whether we're doing it to stress a point, out of brevity, or some combination thereof; there are usually valid exceptions. Even you admit to using chemical control; although less than 1% of the time, in those exceptional cases you must have chosen it because it was the most practical option. Less than 1% of a forum with thousands of users is still a significant number of exceptional cases we must consider.

When I set up my 46G, I was having problems because I had too _little_ light. Everyone was repeating the above advice so frequently I never even considered the possibility. And neither did anyone else. People were still telling me less light, more ferts, and it just wasn't working. Even though I posted my full tank parameters multiple times, no one caught the true problem for months. Those were the most frustrating months of my entire time in this hobby, and I fully believed that you and others were completely full of bull pucks. :hihi:

So that is why I supplement the standard advice, with simultaneously playing "devil's advocate" for exceptions and lesser considered options. Someone needs to.


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

I agree with darkcobra's take on the issue. If we can limit the problem and stifle algae before it gets to epidemic levels, getting a handle on the situation is much easier. However in any case constant observation is necessary. When a tuft of bba appears. There's a reason to its existence and good reason to believe more is on its way. In this cause using immediate chemical control is probably the wisest course of action. Dosing immediately will let you get the upperhand on the situation before an outbreak occurs and you're just tearing things up and replanting anew. 

I would personally risk a tank of plants with an algaecide if I'm going to throw them out anyways since they've become infested. 

Now I can't speak from experience. I'm relatively new to the plant scene(2-3 years) and I've never experienced bad algae before. And when I do encounter algae it normally goes away on its own. So I can't really say X will work against Y.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

DarkCobra said:


> When I set up my 46G, I was having problems because I had too _little_ light. Everyone was repeating the above advice so frequently I never even considered the possibility. And neither did anyone else. People were still telling me less light, more ferts, and it just wasn't working. Even though I posted my full tank parameters multiple times, no one caught the true problem for months. Those were the most frustrating months of my entire time in this hobby, and I fully believed that you and others were completely full of bull pucks. :hihi:


 Some algae as you know are incurable. Black Beard Algae will be in your tank forever once they take hold, no matter what the light situation. This algae is the exception. It'll do fine in low light as well.


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## Sharkfood (May 2, 2010)

> Now I'm no jedi but I'm just curious...why _aren't _chemicals the answer in combating algae. A systemic treatment of chemicals could easily eliminate the algae problems and as long as no other filamentous algae are introduced to the tank via fish or plants (easily preventable) then the problem is done


You forgot tapwater and airborne spores for ways to get algae into your tank.

The amount of "chemicals" needed to eliminate 100% of the spores already in the tank would eliminate 100% of the fish and plants as well.

Algae grows in my hydroponics trays, and they have never seen a fish or an aquatic plant. If algae can survive chlorinated tap water, as well as being dried out, how to you plan to eliminate it with chemicals? The spores will always be lurking, waiting to grow into vast mats of slimy green muck. I flood my trays with undiluted H2O2 between crops also.


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

Ah but this algae you speak of isn't the nuisance algae in our tanks! Many people are missing the fact I'm calling out the filamentous algaes in my war against them. The air born pathogens are impossible to prevent but they're also the least invasive unless your parameters are *completely out of whack*. Cyano, bad gda, gsp, diatoms and a very few select species of filamentous algae are impossible to keep out of a tank but they're also the easiest to control.


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## Sharkfood (May 2, 2010)

I've often been one of the first to point out that an aquarium is in no way similar to a natural ecosystem. If you've seen most natural ecosystems, they certainly aren't the way most of us would like our aquariums to look.

Personaly, I've spot dosed with exel many times in the past, and I have to magfloat the glass in my main tank every couple of weeks (In my defense I'm often away for days or weeks at a time, in which case my tanks aren't well fertilized or topped off/WC).

I can't speak for everyone here, but the main reason I tell people to avoid using "chemicals" as we call them is that I think they will find the results dissappointing in the long term.

I don't think most of us have an elitist aversion to using medications. In many cases we have tried these in the past and have found them not to be a viable long term means of control.

In a well maintained aquarium, even when algae is present, it's usually on the glass or substrate, and almost never growing directly on the plants themselves.

I would say if you are going to use something like an antibitotic, you would want to use it hard, as in medicinal practices. Any algae, bacteria, alien invaders that survive the initial treatment are likely to be resistant the next time around.

On a side note.
Cladophora has grown in containers to which I have only added dried Daphnia epiphytes and hair algae in tanks before I have added plants and fish. Or do those not count as filamentous algae? (I don't think I've seen hair algae mentioned so far.)

I would hypothesize that these algae likely flowed in from the tap.


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## JeffHB (Feb 11, 2011)

Folks, hasn't this topic been beaten to death....i mean tomato tomaato or what?...To be frank, I really wish our forum gurus would spend their energy dealing with unresolved issues rather than philisophical arm wresting on this debate...


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## RoyalFizbin (Mar 7, 2006)

Let me tell you guys what i did last sunday. You'll all think im crazy for doing this but I bleached an entire tank with plants in it. I had hair algae in my fisidens and just couldn't eradicate it.
I over dosed excell, I spot treated with h2o2 but it would always come back. Then i read a topic at APC about bleaching all your plants and then puting them back. Hair algae and other filamenous algea as i understand it, are introduced with plants or water from another tank. It doesn't grow from floating spores. If you totally eradicate it, you shouldn't have a problem with it again untill you introduce it again. I turned off my filter to prevent my bacteria from from dying then i dumped half a bottle of bleach into my tank waited 4 minutes and did 4 water changes, finishing the last change with declorinator. The recomended proceadure was to use a 20:1 ratio and bleach dip for 3-4 minutes. The way i did it, my plants got way more than 4 minutes because it takes time to syphon that water out. If i had to do it again, i would start syphoning as soon as the bleach went in. All my plants suffered but it's all groing back.


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Nah, that's not too crazy. I'd do two things differently:

1) Remove the filter media and run the filters during treatment. This'll clear out algae in the plumbing during treatment, and help to circulate the dechlor.
2) Test for ammonia spikes for a few days afterwards, just in case. There is a significant amount of nitrifying bacteria on substrate and other surfaces, not just the filter media.

I recall seeing a fellow who wiped out algae in his plant/fish tank by just failing to dechlor his heavily chlorinated tapwater. Though I wouldn't recommend that at all. Even if the chlorine doesn't kill fish right away, the damage to their gills is reputed to be cumulative.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

The reason people say that balancing a tank is more important than killing algae is simple. You don't have to kill algae.

Anything you buy in a bottle to kill algae is harmful to both your fish and your plants. It is especially harmful to shirmp, and they die, been there. Just because something doesn't kill your plants doesn't make not harmful.

I don't do Excel spot treatments anymore. I have melted enough plants to stop. I am willing to do H2O2 but it depends on what it is for. When I know what caused the algae (making adjustments, missing doesing, etc), I will use it as a quick fix to just get it out. If I don't know why it is there, I try to let it linger.

I have gassed my fish pretty bad too. I don't recall if I ever lost any, I probably have, but I defineatly made them suffer. I can admit that as well.

In general, when I started I made mistakes, for the sake of algae, that killed the animals (and sometimes plants) I was keeping. It's just not a good idea. Maybe you can get away with it if you are very methodical but with that approach, you are likely someone who is patient and can achieve a balance. 

Anyway, more of my point is this. When I started, I was using everything under the sun to try to keep algae at bay. Not only was it a ton of work, my tank eventually just crashed. My next tank, it never crashed but it just was never in the state I wanted.


After that, I really challenged myself to do non CO2 tanks. Not necessarily low light, defineatly not "low light plants". I used stems that are said to need CO2, massive amounts of ferts, and crazy amount of light. I successfully kept 3 tanks without a major algae outbreak. In fact, the little ones I got were always from an experimental perspective. 

I would add light and see how much I could use before something bad would happen. I don't think I ever got more than some algae on the glass. I would reduce light (most were using screw in CFL bulbs so that was easy), and things would go back. 

I unintentionally learned that lighting can control every other factor. Before, I was trying to use CO2, ferts, and anything else to control both growth and algae, while having too much light. I did have a long run with 108 watts of T5 lighting over a 29 but it crashed. My non CO2 ones never change. 

Now I am learning to apply this to high tech tanks. It's a much more delicate balance (IMO). But, the same rules apply. Honestly, one great thing is that we have so much information on algae. I have found that algae is a "telling sign". I now am able to understand by research what I lack in my tank and make adjustments (one by one, never doing an "algae war"). I learn something each time I get algae and successfully get rid of it.


At the end of the day, I may use H2O2, but that is it. It's not to mask the problem, it's to save time. I do have one tank right now that isn't balanced, and I get more algae than I would like. I am playing a game though. I am seeing if I can get away by adding plants. I have put a screen under the light and in 3-4 days, my algae was cut down so significantly, it was shocking to me. I don't mind experimenting, but I like to know my "way out", not constantly working towards an unachievable goal.


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

I think you're the assumption I'm just starting this out (;. I've got a decent amount of experience under my belt and I can proudly say my algae problems are limited to a few tufts of bba that have been there and done nothing since day 1. My goal is to explore new routes for our hobby. Although this project is on hold until I decide to set up a new planted tank and encounter problems(breeding fish really takes up some serious space). The goal is only unachievable if no one tries.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

It sounds as though you've already found this balance you're so against...



edit, forgot smiley!


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

OverStocked said:


> It sounds as though you've already found this balance you're so against...


Just because I can grow plants doesn't mean I have to adhere to the method I've found to be successful. If anything that's more reason to do something different. I approach my tanks without any starry eyed ideas of a perfect harmony or anything. I understand the concepts that good plant growth = less algae whether due to competition or allelochemicals. They're little boxes with more tubes than an ICU patient keeping them up and running.


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## acropora1981 (May 30, 2010)

I think chemicals can be an acceptable way to help expedite the eradication of algae once the tank has been returned to/brought to a balance. However, if the tank isn't returned to balance (CO2, light, nutrients) then the algae will simply return. Sometimes though to save your plants, excel and H2O2 can be very useful tools to kill off large amounts of algae.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Jeffww said:


> I think you're the assumption I'm just starting this out (;. I've got a decent amount of experience under my belt and I can proudly say my algae problems are limited to a few tufts of bba that have been there and done nothing since day 1. My goal is to explore new routes for our hobby. Although this project is on hold until I decide to set up a new planted tank and encounter problems(breeding fish really takes up some serious space). The goal is only unachievable if no one tries.


I don't know if you were referring to me but I think you were. I wasn't making any judgement on you, and read how you have been successful in improving the balance of your tanks. 

I was just speaking generally, and posting my experiences. One key point (for me) I made, that I didn't make a key point is this though. If you are truly methodical on your quest to use chemical means to kill algae, you have the right mindset to just do things right. The only problem is, lights are expensive, CO2 setups are expensive, chemicals are not. So, if you pick the wrong light, can't afford a CO2 setup, you have a financial decision to make, assuming you can't raise the lights or turn off a bank of bulbs.



This is a whole other can of worms but I am going to make an assumption that I bet is true. If every light fixture on the market was dimmable, and perfectly from max light to none on a graph, more than half on this forum would not dim there lights and battle algae because of it.


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