# Tiger Tank...official start (now with shrimp)



## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

No, you add RO right until your _GH_ is 4-5, KH should stay 0


BTW, sweet UGF


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Yeah...I miss typed the KH/GH and got them flip flopped.

Yeah, I thought that filter was pretty sweet too. Props to the developer :wink:


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

You gonna lay some old sea mud down under the akadama? I think that's important when using akadama


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

hmmm...why's that? What does it do? Where can I get some? Is it a fish tank sort of supplement or something I can find at the local healthy living shop?


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

You can use montmorillonite clay in a crunch.

Akadama literally strips minerals out of the water. I believe that when using old sea mud under the substrate minimizes this stripping of minerals, or at least controls it to a point.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Ah...I see. So will the Akadama become saturated at some point and stop stripping stuff from the water or will this be a constant concern? I see that Mosura has old sea mud. Price doesn't seem too out of line unless I need a bottle a month or something. Says it will last 6m under the substrate then dose to the water column.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Correct, it lasts about 6 months under the substrate. After which point it'll decrease it's effectiveness.

A bottle a year is more like it. The stuff is cheap, and as an under layer beneath your substrate it can help curb the stripping effect of akadama and other active soils.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

I've been using Akadama without any noticeable mineral stripping for over 2 months now. Though I did notice that it took over a month to cycle the damn tank due to nitrate creep. I was still able to keep livestock in the tanks after the first week, just had to keep doing 20% WCs every week, remineralized back up with MMP every time. Maybe that was the reason why I wasn't noticing any GH fluctuations.


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## Snowflake311 (Apr 20, 2011)

Did you paint the sides? If so Why?


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Painted the sides, yes. I do that to my tanks because it helps make the shrimp/fish/plants pop against the background, it gives the occupants more security, and it hides stuff from view such as wires and filter tubes.


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## hedge_fund (Jan 1, 2006)

great looking start you have going there


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## DesmondTheMoonBear (Dec 19, 2011)

Nice!!! 

One day I'll have a dedicated shrimp tank.


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## h4n (Jan 4, 2006)

So far so good!! I want another tank!!!


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## hedge_fund (Jan 1, 2006)

mordalphus said:


> You gonna lay some old sea mud down under the akadama? I think that's important when using akadama


I have a set up with akadama as well but I did not use any supplements under the substrate. Tank is set up and going for a few days now -- should I be adding anything if I just use regular tap water? This whole akadama thing is new to me.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Nubster said:


> Out of the RO/DI:
> 
> pH 6.5
> KH 1
> ...


Hm... are you sure your kH and gH test is correct out of the tap? Or is your TDS measurement in degrees? Generally, if you're using a TDS meter it will measure in ppm, whereas the kH and gH tests are in degrees. In which case your TDS should at least be ~38.


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## GDP (Mar 12, 2011)

mordalphus said:


> No, you add RO right until your _GH_ is 4-5, KH should stay 0
> 
> 
> BTW, sweet UGF


 
Sorry to sorta thread jack but Im curious, does KH matter at all in a tank with active soil? Or because the soil buffers you dont need KH and the soil keeps the PH from swinging?

Also in the regards to the OP, sweet UGF.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

diwu13 said:


> Hm... are you sure your kH and gH test is correct out of the tap? Or is your TDS measurement in degrees? Generally, if you're using a TDS meter it will measure in ppm, whereas the kH and gH tests are in degrees. In which case your TDS should at least be ~38.


The numbers you quoted are from the water out of the RO/DI filter. My tap water is:

pH 7.6
KH 5 (drops to color change, API test kit)
GH 6 (drops to color change, API test kit)
TDS 117


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

GDP said:


> Sorry to sorta thread jack but Im curious, does KH matter at all in a tank with active soil? Or because the soil buffers you dont need KH and the soil keeps the PH from swinging?
> 
> Also in the regards to the OP, sweet UGF.


Thanks and no problem...ask away. Other people ask questions and I (and others) still learn because a lot of this stuff is still new to me too.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

hedge_fund said:


> I have a set up with akadama as well but I did not use any supplements under the substrate. Tank is set up and going for a few days now -- should I be adding anything if I just use regular tap water? This whole akadama thing is new to me.


Akadama apparently strips so many minerals out of the water upon initial set-up that you just have to keep an eye on it.

In an ideal world the minerals that the Akadama would suck out would be shrimp beneficial minerals (so that those minerals are theoretically available at some point) and having old sea mud under the substrate is probably a beneficial thing with most substrates anyways so that is probably why Liam is suggesting it.

My understanding with a new Akadama tank is simply that you have to keep an eye on it to make sure that it doesn't knock your tank parameters too far out of where you think they are. If you are re-constituting RO water you will have figured out what target water you are aiming for (probably based upon TDS readings) and you will be assuming that that the gH and kH will fall in line based upon your calculations of the RO mineral additive that you are using.

With Akadama in the early stages of a tank those minerals can get sucked out of the water at a significant clip and might make your water TOO soft if you don't keep an eye on it.

This only appears to be a concern or threat during the initial set-up.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

This is why I want to setup and let the tank run for a couple weeks minimum before I even start to think about adding anything. This is my first run at an active substrate so I want to make sure things are settled before I start adding shrimp.

When/if the water does start to get too soft should one do a water change or just add remineralizing product to bring it back in line?


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## hedge_fund (Jan 1, 2006)

madness said:


> Akadama apparently strips so many minerals out of the water upon initial set-up that you just have to keep an eye on it.
> 
> In an ideal world the minerals that the Akadama would suck out would be shrimp beneficial minerals (so that those minerals are theoretically available at some point) and having old sea mud under the substrate is probably a beneficial thing with most substrates anyways so that is probably why Liam is suggesting it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the answer. I just tested my PH and it's at 6.4 so it's not dropping all the much on the daily basis.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

hedge_fund said:


> Thanks for the answer. I just tested my PH and it's at 6.4 so it's not dropping all the much on the daily basis.


I don't think that it is the pH that you have to worry about dropping too far.

The pH drop with Akadama seems to be smaller than with ADA soils but the pH does seem to hold stable with Akadama.

The gH and kH are what you have to worry about.

I am guessing (but haven't tested it yet) that with tap water it probably isn't as much of an issue for two reasons - tap water tanks probably don't have as sensitive of shrimp (or they would be RO tanks) and the vast majority of tap water is going to come with higher TDS/gH/kH than what people set their RO water to.

If you look at what people are reconstituting RO water at (TDS/gH/kH levels) for most of the caridina cantonensis (bee shrimp and tigers) and caridina serrata shrimp (TTs, Aura Blues) there is very little TDS/gH/kH to spare so percentage wise any change is pretty significant.

People are re-constituting their RO water to mineral levels that are pretty close to zero to start with so there just isn't much leeway.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

GDP said:


> Sorry to sorta thread jack but Im curious, does KH matter at all in a tank with active soil? Or because the soil buffers you dont need KH and the soil keeps the PH from swinging?


Yea that's completely correct. kH helps buffer the pH and keep it stable, but if you have active substrate it is doing the buffering so keeping the kH around zero you minimize the "work" the substrate has to put in to lower the pH.



Nubster said:


> The numbers you quoted are from the water out of the RO/DI filter. My tap water is:
> 
> pH 7.6
> KH 5 (drops to color change, API test kit)
> ...


Yea I meant are you sure the kH and gH values from your RO/DI filter are correct? Or is your TDS measurement in degrees? Generally, if you're using a TDS meter it will measure in ppm, whereas the kH and gH tests are in degrees. In which case your TDS should at least be ~38.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

diwu13 said:


> Yea that's completely correct. kH helps buffer the pH and keep it stable, but if you have active substrate it is doing the buffering so keeping the kH around zero you minimize the "work" the substrate has to put in to lower the pH.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea I meant are you sure the kH and gH values from your RO/DI filter are correct? Or is your TDS measurement in degrees? Generally, if you're using a TDS meter it will measure in ppm, whereas the kH and gH tests are in degrees. In which case your TDS should at least be ~38.


by GH 1 and KH 1, he meant 1 drop, which indicates 0-1


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Yeah, it took one drop and the color change was immediate which I would think indicates 0 for both values, or very close to it. But I see what you are saying diwu13.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

Liam: ever heard of anyone trying Fiji Mud rather than old sea mud?

I picked up a small bottle of the refugium booster with an order a while back with the idea of possibly testing it out but I haven't been brave enough yet. I need predictability on the next set-up I am doing so I will skip adding it but I might try it out on a future set-up as I try to transition my tanks to all using active substrates.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Only thing I'd worry about with fiji mud is if it has salt in it.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

mordalphus said:


> by GH 1 and KH 1, he meant 1 drop, which indicates 0-1





Nubster said:


> Yeah, it took one drop and the color change was immediate which I would think indicates 0 for both values, or very close to it. But I see what you are saying diwu13.


Ahhh haha. I figured you'd put like "0-1" or something. Sorry I was confused ._.


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## GDP (Mar 12, 2011)

diwu13 said:


> Yea that's completely correct. kH helps buffer the pH and keep it stable, but if you have active substrate it is doing the buffering so keeping the kH around zero you minimize the "work" the substrate has to put in to lower the pH.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea I meant are you sure the kH and gH values from your RO/DI filter are correct? Or is your TDS measurement in degrees? Generally, if you're using a TDS meter it will measure in ppm, whereas the kH and gH tests are in degrees. In which case your TDS should at least be ~38.


 
Thanks. I guess I should stop adding baking soda now and stop wondering why my KH keeps going back to 0 lol.


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

im kinda new to all this water mixing stuff and plain and simple dont do it but i keep crystal reds, and oebt in tap water no ro unit here. i did have a berryed crystal red but kid decided the tank needed filled and use a part of a gallon of distilled and no more eggs but other than that all are great in tap water. i do not have a clue what my perameters are right now cause i have not owned a test kit in years but will be gettin one in a day or 2 so ill let any one who wants to know then. i do use miracle grow organic (peat based) capped with sand so that might have a bit to do with it. sorry for the randoms post but im just wondering what the gh/kh and all vs the ro water is about do most people have a prob with reg tap water so they cant keep caridina shrimp?


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

wicca27 said:


> im kinda new to all this water mixing stuff and plain and simple dont do it but i keep crystal reds, and oebt in tap water no ro unit here. i did have a berryed crystal red but kid decided the tank needed filled and use a part of a gallon of distilled and no more eggs but other than that all are great in tap water. i do not have a clue what my perameters are right now cause i have not owned a test kit in years but will be gettin one in a day or 2 so ill let any one who wants to know then. i do use miracle grow organic (peat based) capped with sand so that might have a bit to do with it. sorry for the randoms post but im just wondering what the gh/kh and all vs the ro water is about do most people have a prob with reg tap water so they cant keep caridina shrimp?


Caridina cantonensis seem to have a range of water parameters where they thrive. Mostly this means cool, soft water (low ph, low gh/kh).

Most people have tap water that is too hard for caridina cantonensis. The most reliable and probably the most effective way to deal with this is to use RO and use a mineral additive/supplement to mix back into the RO water in order to get the measurements to an ideal level.

If you are already keeping caridina cantonensis and having success using tap water then don't worry about it. It applies more to people who can't get them to live/breed with the tap water that they have locally or for people who just want to try and have everything as perfect as possible for them.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

My questions are, you said you had a berried crystal. How long have you had your crystal shrimp? Have you had other berried shrimp? Also, have you had babies in this tank before? If so, what was the survival rate? I think my tap water, other than having a slightly high pH, could do ok with caridina shrimp. Thing is, even if the parameters look ok, I don't know what all is in my water. I'd love to be able to use tap water but when the time comes and I have a tank full of $30-$50 shrimp, I want to make sure that I am giving them the best living environment I can and if that means RO/DI water, then that's what they are going to get.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Nubster said:


> My questions are, you said you had a berried crystal. How long have you had your crystal shrimp? Have you had other berried shrimp? Also, have you had babies in this tank before? If so, what was the survival rate? I think my tap water, other than having a slightly high pH, could do ok with caridina shrimp. Thing is, even if the parameters look ok, I don't know what all is in my water. I'd love to be able to use tap water but when the time comes and I have a tank full of $30-$50 shrimp, I want to make sure that I am giving them the best living environment I can and if that means RO/DI water, then that's what they are going to get.


Another reason to use RO/DI water is that your tap water sometimes undergoes changes through seasons. Maybe it gets harder, pH higher, more minerals at some point, you just don't know with it. That's why you essentially have to use RO/DI water with caridina species unless you're using well water.


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## h4n (Jan 4, 2006)

diwu13 said:


> Another reason to use RO/DI water is that your tap water sometimes undergoes changes through seasons. Maybe it gets harder, pH higher, more minerals at some point, you just don't know with it. That's why you essentially have to use RO/DI water with caridina species unless you're using well water.


Well water will change also though.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

h4n said:


> Well water will change also though.


Really? I thought the TDS/gH/kH was pretty constant with well water year round


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## Snowflake311 (Apr 20, 2011)

A lot of it has to do with run off. How much rain and snow will effect your TDS even in a well. I have asked for a detailed water report from my company. it tells you everything that's in your water and how much. It's pretty interesting. That report can let you know how good or bad your water really is. It's free and they email it to you.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Snowflake311 said:


> A lot of it has to do with run off. How much rain and snow will effect your TDS even in a well. I have asked for a detailed water report from my company. it tells you everything that's in your water and how much. It's pretty interesting. That report can let you know how good or bad your water really is. It's free and they email it to you.


Yeah I knew you could get those water reports if you're using the city's water lines. But I thought if you run off of well water, that was kind of it's own separate thing. No experience with having well water haha.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

It depends upon the location and type of water you are getting your well water from.

If it is from some deep, isolated aquifer then it should be pretty stable.

We have wells in the river valley so the water is constantly mixed in with the water table from the river so I am sure that it fluctuates a ton.


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

my blue tiger shrimp breed no prob i have had the crystal reds since about mid november i think. first one i saw berried was first part of jan. no babys now i think the change in water when the distilled water was added stressed them. i do have small shrimp but i also have the rili in there and so not sure whos babys they really are


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## ucantimagine (Jan 8, 2012)

Oooo thanks for reminding me. 



mordalphus said:


> You gonna lay some old sea mud down under the akadama? I think that's important when using akadama


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Ok...so my Old Sea Mud arrived today (THANKS mordalphus!!!) so I am making some RO water and hoping to get the tank running this evening. I have my first bucket of H2O and I am trying to get it remineralized. Out of the RO I get:

KH/GH 0-1
TDS 2

I added some Kent's RO Right until I got GH 4 (very light green, how green should it be?), KH still 0-1, and TDS is 187. Does that seem right to have such high TDS? I was expecting more along the lines of 150 or so.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

If there was only gH then the TDS should be ~80. Since it is much higher Kent RO right must be adding back some minerals that are conductive.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

diwu13 said:


> If there was only gH then the TDS should be ~80. Since it is much higher Kent RO right must be adding back some minerals that are conductive.


I think I saw someone mention somewhere that it has some salts in it which would probably conduct and thus show up as TDS. I don't know this for a fact though and I haven't used RO Right before.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

diwu13 said:


> If there was only gH then the TDS should be ~80. Since it is much higher Kent RO right must be adding back some minerals that are conductive.



That's what I thought. Is that normal with Kent's? I thought it was supposed to be one of the better products but jacking up the TDS like that, it seems to me that it's kinda "dirty" which is why I avoided the SeaChem stuff.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

To be honest I haven't used it before . But Liam said it worked great so that must be he case ! But that TDS will be your "clean" TDS reading as there shouldn't be anything bad in there. So you'll probabily need to do water changes when the tds in your tank reachs ~200


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

I use RO right. I just add til tds is 175 and toss it in the tank. That's always tested as 4-5 GH for me.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

So 185 isn't terribly off from what you are doing. I wish the color change in the test was a little more dramatic. I am assuming that a tinge of green is all I am looking for or does it need to be green green?


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

If you aren't sure you can add more of the remineralizer. Since shrimp can stand GH of 4-6 you could potentially increase the TDS by 38 and still be in that range.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

I think my GH is ok...I was just worried about the TDS being so high at 185-187. If I bumped it up to 5 GH I'd be over 200 TDS and that wouldn't be good, right?


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

It's when the color changes from Orange to green. I'm not sure how accurate the drip tests are, but i wouldnt go crazy over a few tds. If the GH is a little high, the substrate will take care of that, if its a little low, you can always do a wc with slightly higher GH water, or just add a little RO right.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

I think you're getting distracted by your TDS meter.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Probably. I guess I just want to make sure I do this right considering this tank will house potentially hundreds of dollars worth of shrimp some day.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Well GH is whats important, tds is secondary. I have a tank with 480 tds and 5gh, I think yours will be fine, lol


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

The Akadama is going to strip some of it out initially and you don't sound like you are going to stock it immediately so you should have time to do some water changes and figure out how you want to dial in your re-constituted RO water.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Yeah, right...plan is to wait a couple weeks to a month to let the tank run and work the bugs out. If anything, I might stick some RCS in there but only after I am sure things are stable.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

mordalphus said:


> Well GH is whats important, tds is secondary. I have a tank with 480 tds and 5gh, I think yours will be fine, lol


My crystal tank was 280TDS today and still 5-6gH and breeding like crazy. I did a small WC to bring it down to 230.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Well, for better or worse, tank is full of water and running. I'll check parameters this even to see what they look like after 20 hours. It's nice to see it just a little closer to being inhabited.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Here are some shots from last night's setup...

Old Sea Mud










Covered with Akadama










Seeded Lava Rock UGF biomedia










Complete Akadama coverage










WATER!!!










So far, so good. Canister is dead quite, has good flow for this size tank, and is leak free. I will re-do placement of the plumbing, I just wanted to get the filter running last night. I will also be adding a sponge filter soon. So, I am pretty excited to be this far along. I have some Java Fern that will go in the tank, probably just a bunch in the back corner(s). The rest will be moss on the substrate, maybe some lava rocks throughout for additional biomedia as well as some nice porous areas for film to grow.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Job well done so far sir.


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## GDP (Mar 12, 2011)

Very nice.


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## DesmondTheMoonBear (Dec 19, 2011)

Jealous! Maybe I'll have a 10 gallon shrimp breeder in the future soon....not sure about a 20 long as space is an issue. :/ You're lucky you have an RO unit, I don't think I'll be able to afford one for years. I have CRS/CBS which are doing good but I'm not expecting much once they start to breed.


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## h4n (Jan 4, 2006)

Nice. You guys and your UGF and akamada!! I want one!


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## Snowflake311 (Apr 20, 2011)

Nubster said:


> So 185 isn't terribly off from what you are doing. I wish the color change in the test was a little more dramatic. I am assuming that a tinge of green is all I am looking for or does it need to be green green?


The color change will be more noticeable if you shake it really good. I use to just do a little shake and never saw much change but if you shake the tube to get bubbles the color is stronger.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Great step by step pictures with the UFG setup! Now only if madness would show us his as well .


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

speedie408 said:


> Job well done so far sir.


Thank you!



GDP said:


> Very nice.


Thanks.



DesmondTheMoonBear said:


> Jealous! Maybe I'll have a 10 gallon shrimp breeder in the future soon....not sure about a 20 long as space is an issue. :/ You're lucky you have an RO unit, I don't think I'll be able to afford one for years. I have CRS/CBS which are doing good but I'm not expecting much once they start to breed.


Yeah, luckily there is a kinda spare room in the house. It's a catch all room, storage, playroom, shrimp room. The RO unit I've had for several years...picked it up pretty cheap. It definitely is nice to have and I think a worthwhile investment.



h4n said:


> Nice. You guys and your UGF and akamada!! I want one!


haha...it is a pretty sweet setup. Seems to be working great for now. Water is very clear and there seems to be some good gentle movement in the tank. I think it will work out great. The Akadama, that is to be determined but from what I read, it's the stuff to get.



Snowflake311 said:


> The color change will be more noticeable if you shake it really good. I use to just do a little shake and never saw much change but if you shake the tube to get bubbles the color is stronger.


Great tip...I'll certainly try that later when I check parameters.



diwu13 said:


> Great step by step pictures with the UFG setup! Now only if madness would show us his as well .


Hopefully it will help if anyone else wants to see a step by step. And yeah madness...show and tell time!


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

Nubster said:


> Hopefully it will help if anyone else wants to see a step by step. And yeah madness...show and tell time!


I am stuck inside this weekend with this blizzard. Hopefully I can dig up my stupid camera charger from wherever I have misplaced it.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Not much to report, just some parameters....

GH 3
KH 0-1
TDS 197
pH 6.4
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 10

Everything seems pretty good. I'll get the GH up a little and monitor that...I figure it's the Akadama stripping the water a little. I thought there would be more of a drop so I'm happy with just one point. I guess the trick is figuring out how much to add to get it back up to 4-5.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

h4n said:


> Nice. You guys and your UGF and akamada!! I want one!


You can do these UGF with AS (and if you wanted really low pH that would probably be the best route).

The Akadama might be slightly more resistant to breaking down in this type of set-up than the AS and the Akadama obviously doesn't leech ammonia like AS will but the primary reason to use the Akadama is because if you are able to find it locally it is WAY cheaper than AS or other shrimp soils like Up Aqua Shrimp Sand (not having to pay shipping on these substrates makes such a huge difference).

I assume that you knew all of this already but I just wanted to point it out so that anyone following the thread would realize that Akadama is not the only (and perhaps not even the best) choice for UGF shrimp tanks.

I have one UGF set up already with AS Amazonia Multi-type and enough Akadama Double Red Line and Aqua Soil sitting around here to do several more tanks so in a year or something maybe I can do a more direct comparison. Assuming that I even get my lazy butt around to setting them up in the next year.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

BTW Nubster, do you remember how much (2L or 4L) Matrix you used in your set-up?

I saw someone on another UGF thread asking about it but since I dumped an entire 4L bucket of Matrix in my first UGF tank I couldn't really answer as to whether or not 2L would cut it.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

I actually used lava rock but I think I read that Liam used around 1L in his but it looks to be only about half the size of my filter.....

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/s...-setting-up-tank-how-sorta-6.html#post1709676


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## h4n (Jan 4, 2006)

Thanks madness but ya I know that already. Just I didn't want to gut a tank just to try UGF setup.


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## longbeach (Nov 2, 2011)

For you Gh and Kh readings:

If you look down thru the test vial, onto a sheet of white paper, it helps to see the actual color. I've always had the same problem til I started looking down the tube not thru it!


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## Speaker73 (May 1, 2010)

What attachment did you use to connect your UGF with the filter hose? I'm in the planning stages to set one of these up and your's looks sweet.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

longbeach said:


> For you Gh and Kh readings:
> 
> If you look down thru the test vial, onto a sheet of white paper, it helps to see the actual color. I've always had the same problem til I started looking down the tube not thru it!


Thanks. I'll give that a try next time I test. I also found that shaking the living crap out of the bottles and vial helped a little.



Speaker73 said:


> What attachment did you use to connect your UGF with the filter hose? I'm in the planning stages to set one of these up and your's looks sweet.


It's a 1/2" male threaded barb. The barb is also 1/2". Seems to be working pretty good. Water is nice and clear though there isn't really anything in there to muck it up. I have a clump of Java Fern in the tank now hanging out and I'm getting ready to move my well seeded sponge filter over. I added a few drops of ammonia last night too just to feed the bacteria. I want the lava rock in the filter, which was dry when added, to be seeded before I start adding livestock. I think between the UGF, canister, and sponge, I should be set on biofiltration for the tank. Overkill in fact but I guess better to over do it than not have enough.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

The part that I used was from the Home Depot plumbing section (down the aisle from the actual PVC that I purchased - sort of mixed in with the kitchen plumbing attachment section).

Watts brand "Quick-Connect" Adapter.

1/2" OD x 1/2" MIP

PL-3036 was the part/model number.

The top part has the quick connect coupler and the bottom part is a male threaded connection.

So for the final 90 degree elbow it has an SOC (I think that is how they label the smooth, non threaded connection) on one end of the elbow and a female threaded end on the other end of the elbow.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Well...just updating to say the tank is still up and running. There isn't much to report. I added some moss and have a bunch of Java Fern floating in the water at the moment. There is a RCS in the tank that I added to see how he would do. He's been kickin' around a couple weeks now so it looks like the tank can at least support life...lol

I am getting ready to move a well seeded sponge filter over to the tank, do a small water change, remove the Java Fern, and start looking for some tigers. Anyone want to sell some to me...shoot me a PM. Any tiger is cool, the ultimate goal is to get OEBT so those are what I really want, the price is going to be the main factor since I am broke...lol


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## h4n (Jan 4, 2006)

Nice!!
Haha I setup my 20l and threw in a RCS to. And he's still kicking lol.

There was someone selling 50 OEBT for $315 shipped express.

Might be to much for you lol.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Yeah, the price is great but I don't have that much to spend all at once. I really thought about getting them and just reselling some to make up some of the cost.


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## h4n (Jan 4, 2006)

Nubster said:


> Yeah, the price is great but I don't have that much to spend all at once. I really thought about getting them and just reselling some to make up some of the cost.


me to but I asked for pictures and he wrote SPF>?>


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

How about some pictures from the both of you?


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Pictures of what?


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Tank progression but I suppose in your case (nubster) there isn't much change yet. Mostly it was directed at han since he has been teasing me about the tank for weeks


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

oh...haha...yeah, not too much has changed except the addition of some plant life. I'll still grab a shot or two and post up anyways.


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## stangmus (Apr 1, 2010)

What size holes in the pvc do you drill for the under ground filter.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

I used 7/16" holes.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Quick update...OEBT's have been ordered along with some PFR's that will share the tank with the tigers...VERY excited!!!!


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## Lifeblood (Jan 31, 2012)

Nubster said:


> Quick update...OEBT's have been ordered along with some PFR's that will share the tank with the tigers...VERY excited!!!!


The OEBTs will cross with the Tigers, and the blue is recessive so basically an entire generation with no blues and them maybe blues in the following generation. 

Just something to be aware of.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

No...Only thing that will be in the tank are the OEBT's and PFR's. No regular tigers. I just meant that the PFR's were sharing the tank with the tigers, as in Orange Eyed Blue TIGERS.

Sorry for the confusion...lol


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

The shrimp have landed. Got a box today in the mail. Inside the well packed cardboard vessel was 11 OEBT and 15 PFR, all active and swimming around as if excited to see their new home. They are in a 2 gallon bucket at the moment being slowly drip acclimated. I plan to pretty much fill the bucket before calling it good. Overkill...maybe. But better safe than sorry. All shrimp will be in this tank, the tigers and cherries. I just hope their new home is to their liking.


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## h4n (Jan 4, 2006)

very nice man!


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## Bananariot (Feb 28, 2012)

Nice stuff man, if you get any OEBT culls you wanna rid in the future....just shoot me a call xDDDD, gotta experiment with the low grades before I empty my life savings LOLOL


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

As good as it is to see someone take the time to let a tank develop before adding shrimp it is also good to finally see shrimp in this particular tank. 

Good luck man.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

haha...thanks everyone. Yeah, super excited and glad I waited. It was a test of patience but hopefully worth it.

I'll get more pics up later after the shrimp settle a little bit. They are in the tank and seem to be doing well for now.

I'll certainly keep you in mind Bananariot. I am hoping to see some decent breeding eventually. I'd love to be able to get enough going on to be able to offer some to those of us that live on the east coast since it seems that 90% of these and the other nicer shrimp are coming from the left coast.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)




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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Nice shrimp! FTS FTS FTS!!


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Really crappy shot...you can see me and my other tanks in the reflection. I'll get a better one tonight when I have more time. I have to run up to the fire station now for a work detail so I'll post a new one in a bit...


But here it is. Very basic. Got a couple mosses going on, some lava rock piles with moss attached, sponge filter, and some Subwassertang which is pretty awesome in the shrimp tank I must say. Other than letting everything grow in, I plan on leaving it just as is. Maybe someday I'll do a scaped tank for some of the tigers but I think I'll always maintain this breeder setup too.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Wow! Those shrimp are really nice colored even from the stressed from shipping. They should look extremely awesome in a few weeks


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

I like the looks of it


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Just a quick shot of one of the cherries in the tank. Not quite painted but probably the best I have at the moment.


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

that one dark blue shrimp looks like it has the silver eyes in the pic. is that just from the pic i so want to get some of those i have seen them on german websites with the silver eyes not orange


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Hmm looks pretty painted to me man . All shiny looking


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Tiger tank is dead. All the tigers but one are gone. I set up another 20L, added black sand substrate, tap water, and the plants from this tank and moved all the neos over. I was getting zero breeding from them...I figure it was because of the parameters. So now the water is the same as my 75g tank which I have no problems with breeding. Hopefully they will start.

As far as the tiger, there's one lone survivor. Moved it over with the neos. I'll see how it does, if it survives, maybe I'll get some more and try them again. Guess we'll see what happens.


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## dubels (Jun 14, 2012)

Sorry about your tigers, they looked amazing in the pictures. What parameters were you keeping the tigers in? What was your PH and temps at? I currently have mine in a 5.5 gallon tank but I am itching to set up a 20L for them and some blue velvets. 

As of today my tank parameters are: Just found one of the adults berried this week. 
TDS: 183
GH 5
KH 3
PH 7.2


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Parameters were pretty steady at:

GH 3
KH 0-1
TDS 197
pH 6.4
Temp low 70's

Not sure what happened. Pretty sure I ended up with some bacterial infection in some of the shrimp. The one left is in the new tank with the PFR's also from this tank. I did tap water and sand this time, same as my other neo tanks that resulting in breeding. If the tiger survives a month or more and appears to be doing well, I'll probably get another batch and try them in this tank and see what happens. As of now, the focus is just getting the PFR's to breed some, and to also get my yellows to start breeding again. They have also been mover to a down graded 20L tank from their 40B. In that whole tank there was only 5 yellow. Tomorrow I am taking the 40B down, cleaning it and getting it running again and I'm going to start move shrimp out of the 75g tank and into the 40B to consolidate them as well. Then I'll set up yet another tank, probably a 10g I have, and start pulling chocolates out from the 40B as I find them and start getting them to hopefully breed. The 75g will probably end up with a few bichirs in it by end of the summer.


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## Bananariot (Feb 28, 2012)

Nubster said:


> Parameters were pretty steady at:
> 
> GH 3
> KH 0-1
> ...


Depending on where you got your OEBT, the params may differ for them. German breeders keep theirs at

GH 5-7
KH 0-1
TDS Yours was good
pH 7.0-7.2
Temp low 70's

If you ended up getting a german stock, it may explain why they died, just couldn;t cope and probably got stressed and caught something or just didn;'t molt right.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Yeah...pretty sure the person i got them from had similar parameters. The lone surviver seems to doing ok and actually is more active now. In the old tank...sometimes I wondered if I had tigers at all cause I never saw them and I'd have to search them out. Even food didn't bring them out. Now this girl is out and about all the time. I plan to let the tank settle a little and then I'll source out some more and give them another try. They are my favorite shrimp so now that I've had a taste I definitely want more.


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## dubels (Jun 14, 2012)

Yeah from all the reading and conversations that I have had with people here your PH and GH seemed a bit low. Also tigers seem to be more susceptible to bacteria infections so that could have added to it.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Right. Pretty sure that's what got most of them at least, bacterial infection, probably more susceptible because of the stress from not so perfect water parameters. I hate to learn by losing livestock, but at least I did learn a little something and next time I'll be better prepared I think. Lone survivor is still looking good so I'm shooting for new shrimp hopefully in the next couple weeks if I can find a good source.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

New tank is setup and doing well. I bought a new 20L, used black sand for substrate, tap water, and a sponge filter. Moved all the PFR's from the old tank plus the sole surviving OEBT to the new tank and they seem happier. Had some molting and see a couple saddles already after only a couple weeks. Today I added 5 super tigers which are very cool. I'm hoping they like the setup and do well. I'll get some new parameters this evening to post up just for anyone that is curious. I'll grab some shots too...I have just two for now that I just snapped....and yeah, the moss looks terrible. I was hoping it would come back but not looking like it is going to.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Yea that moss looks like it's dead. Just leave it in the tank and don't feed the shrimp. They will end up eating the dead moss when they get hungry, then whatever is left over will regrow!


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

haha...yeah...looks terrible. Some of the tips are greenish, not sure if that means they are still dying or trying to come back...lol...but yeah, as long as it doesn't start mucking up the water I'll leave it in there.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Having camera issues...trouble focusing. Here's another shot...best out of like 10  and still not great :angryfire


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## Bananariot (Feb 28, 2012)

Nubster said:


> Having camera issues...trouble focusing. Here's another shot...best out of like 10  and still not great :angryfire


Looks pretty amazing to me hahahaha.

Are you sure you got super tiger stock? The pictures kinda show weaker bands that what I normally see in super tigers......it also might just be the picture xD


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Bananariot said:


> Looks pretty amazing to me hahahaha.
> 
> Are you sure you got super tiger stock? The pictures kinda show weaker bands that what I normally see in super tigers......it also might just be the picture xD


Definitely supers John. You see the red-ish head/tail? The bands are really thick as well. Regular tigers can have thick bands, but will never have red heads or tails.


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## Bananariot (Feb 28, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> Definitely supers John. You see the red-ish head/tail? The bands are really thick as well. Regular tigers can have thick bands, but will never have red heads or tails.


http://aquarliam.com/2012/06/super-tigers-anything-special/

According to liam the face color could be present, but the stripes in the pic look a bit thin and rough edged.

Then again I'm confused as all hell to tell the difference nowadays. Cause I've seen regular tigers with those features and from what I gather "super tigers" are really defined by where they come from.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Yea you're right. The stripes aren't as Liam described


> Super tigers (real super tigers), have very thick, broad stripes, mainly black, but can sometimes be outlined in white. The contrast between the edge of the stripe, and the clear part of the body is very stark, like someone had colored them with a fine point permanent marker. The face and tail are always yellow or orange, and the base of the antennules is always red. There is very little variation in these basic features when offspring are created. The difference in pattern between male and female is less drastic than in normal tigers as well, with only a slight difference in the thickness of the striping.


But the head and tail are definitely red. I have one lone female super tiger .


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## Bananariot (Feb 28, 2012)

Sorry nubster, not trying to question it. I'm just really confused myself atm xD


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

No, no problem. I like to learn as well. These came from Msjinkzd so I trust that they are supers, but of course if all signs point to them not being, I'd like to know that as well.


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

I think what is important to realize,even if you read Liam's post, is that this is a wild variation. As with fish, depending on collection locale, you can see a range of variety. I can tell you, they were priced appropriately for what they are. Regular tigers do not have that coloration on head and tail.

Anyone who has dealt with any of these wild type shrimp and has a lot of experience can tell you, the color of the head and tail as well as body type can be heavily impacted by how settled they are into the tank as well. 

Many of this particular batch of super tigers got blueish bodies, with a bright red/orange head and tail. Some have the white shadow bands behind the dark stripes.

You guys should be careful of copying and regurgitating other people's posts/blogs and making determinations of what you think something is or isn't based on lack of first hand knowledge. 

The one that Nubster pictured actually has better head and tail coloration than the one on Liam's site.

Additional pictures from the same group of shrimp: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=185908


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Yeah, and I should clarify, these shots were just hours after the shrimp were taken from shipping and placed in the tank, so they are still showing signs of stress and not fully colored. After ready Liam's article, I don't think I have any question that these are Super Tigers. Not that I did in the first place. Like I said, I trust msjinkzd and her listings.


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

Thanks Nubster. I was not trying to come off as rude, but there are SO many people that read blogs (some of which are wrong, not saying Liam's is) or misinformation on the web, then regurgitate it which makes it spread. It is a massive problem with online forums and one should be careful to only share knowledge which has been gained from first hand experience. It cuts down on a lot of hte misinformation, myths, and mistakes that people make in the hobby.

There are lots of ways that images can be manipulated, or just poor photo quality, which can interfere with proper id as well.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

I had no doubt Rachael! After all, I got a bunch of supers from you when I just ordered regular tigers


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Nubster said:


>


I try not to quote pictures as it tends to get crowded, but one, that is a sharp looking shrimp. I never wanted the stripey shrimp until just now. And two, that is so cute that he has a rock in his (or her) claw. "Let's see, I really like this place, but I think this rock will look better over here."


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Yeah, I am very happy with them. Tried getting some shots today but they haven't showed themselves much yet so I grabbed a shot of a cherry instead. I'll get some more tiger shots this even when it's dinner time.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

More tiger shots...


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## Bananariot (Feb 28, 2012)

Nubster said:


> More tiger shots...


Where's its eyes?!?!?!?! OR is it orange lololol


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Bananariot said:


> Where's its eyes?!?!?!?! OR is it orange lololol


The ugly moss is blocking it


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

diwu13 said:


> The ugly moss is blocking it


haha...could be. As much as I want to pull it out, they seem to love it...so for now, I'll leave it. There's a couple small patches that look like they might pull through. I am going to try and get some other moss I have to grow in a 10g tank under high light, CO2, and ferts and get it to take off and slowly acclimate it to low tech and start replacing the dead stuff.


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

Dead moss everywhere!


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## Bananariot (Feb 28, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> The ugly moss is blocking it


LOL I actually didn't notice that, good call lmao. But yeah these guys are making me want to get tigers again!


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Just another shot I grab a couple minutes ago...these guys are photogenic...


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)




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## Bananariot (Feb 28, 2012)

Nubster said:


>


What camera are you using? I like those shots, gonna be looking into a camera soon......but the prices...>.> I thought shrimp were expensive.....


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## thechibi (Jan 20, 2012)

Awesome.  Ridiculously photogenic shrimp!


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## Bananariot (Feb 28, 2012)

Also what's your source of PFR's?


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

thechibi said:


> Awesome.  Ridiculously photogenic shrimp!


In this tank, they are, the others, not so much.



Bananariot said:


> What camera are you using? I like those shots, gonna be looking into a camera soon......but the prices...>.> I thought shrimp were expensive.....


Nikon D300 with a Tamron 90mm Macro lens.



Bananariot said:


> Also what's your source of PFR's?


They are from Knuggs who is a member here. I also just got some news ones today from dmattbfan5 which should turn out to be really nice as well.


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## Bananariot (Feb 28, 2012)

Nubster said:


> Nikon D300 with a Tamron 90mm Macro lens.


Just googled the price.....excuse me while I find my jaw.....I dropped it somewhere.....


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

I still don't have a macro lens 

Need to sell off about 500 more shrimps. Tamron is on the more affordable side too.


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

if you haven't looked into it, I really REALLy like my Tokina f2.8 100mm macro lens. It is pretty affordable, at between $400-600, and does a great job. I really like the focus clutch, which makes it extremely fast to switch between manual and auto focusing.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Tokina is good stuff. My favorite lens at the moment is my Tokina 12-24mm


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## plamski (Sep 25, 2009)

Nikon 40mm macro $250


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Glad I took pictures cause I think all my tigers are dead...at the very least, MIA for more than a week. I did see the lone OEBT dead in the tank last week. What the hell is it with tigers? Most awesome shrimp, can't seem to keep them for sht.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Or you can get a set of close-up filters for $30. or a reverse ring.

Sorry to hear your tigers are mia


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Saw one tiger, but pretty sure the others are gone. It wasn't even a nice tiger either 

On a good note, saw that one of my PFR's is berried. About time too.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Long time no update...well, no news is bad news. No more tigers. PFR's are still kicking around. No breeding from them but they are still alive. Lost all the tigers again. Not sure what's up. I may or may not try one more time. I need to find someone successfully keeping them in water very close to mine. It really irritates me that I can't keep these things.


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

what kind of tigers are you trying to keep... sorry didnt read though the whole thing again just looked at this page since it was a new update.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Standard or super tigers.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

My bad, I thought you were asking a question, hahah

Nice picture btw


Sorry to hear you're having such bad luck with tigers, it's gotta be something to do with parameters I guess. I only ever had luck with super tigers, never had much luck with regular ones or oebt


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Yeah, I don't know. Maybe if you don't mind posting up parameters that you keep supers in?


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

I kept supers in ph 6.8, gh 8, kh 3. Never let hem get above 72 degrees and did a 20% wc weekly to avoid bacteria problems.


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## JYY626 (May 14, 2009)

I feel your frustration man.
I've lost more than 100 tigers/super tigers.

First batch was 30 super tigers, they died slowly about 2-3 a day.
Second batch 100 super tigers/regular tigers; they died 5-8 a day around 6 left.
The first two batches of tigers I just drop acclimated for around 4 hours from main tank.
Main tank is a 100gal planted tank with CRS, PFR.

Recent batch 50 super tigers/regular tigers
(All alive)

The thing I did different with this recent batch.
1. Quarantine tank 5 gal with moss, java ferns on drift wood and a sponge filter.
Quarantine tank:
I used Ro water and adjusted TDS to 150 with conditioner.
Seeded sponge filter with old tank water and quick start solution.
Quarantine tank is about 4 days old.
The day before you receive your shrimp dose a full dose of paraguard into the tank to kill existing bacteria from old tank.

2. Test TDS with meter and adjust TDS of quarantine with water shipped with shrimp.
The tigers bag water was 200 I adjusted quaratine tank from 150 to 185

3. Dose melafix first day 1/2 dose
Second day rest
4. Dose seachem paraguard (third) day
half dose

I'm on the 6th day now, they are still in quarantine.
I dose paraguard every other day 3/4 dose
Everyday before dosing medication I take out about 1 gal of water from the quarantine tank and add 1 gal of water from the main tank.
So far so good no dead tigers this time.

The tigers I got were all in the mail for (9) days.

Conclusion?
(Quarantine)
I've read so many threads online about why you should or should not acclimate shrimp or quarantine shrimp.
I saw a thread from a german guy (wish i remembered the site) that says every tank has their own composition of bacteria and diseases.
Shipping is always stressful for shrimp and will lower their immune systems.
Makes a lot of sense if you ask me.

This has worked for me maybe you should try it with your next batch of shrimps.

I have 8 Tigers from the 1st and 2nd batch left and one female is berried...
These 8 tigers were probably the strongest out of 130 shrimps but if I paid extra attention to them I would have 100+ tigers now....

Losing the shrimps was a little painful and stressed me out a bit but I learned SO SO much more from it. 

DON'T GIVE UP!


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Yeah, might try that next time. I hate to give up on them as they are such cool shrimp. What is your tank setup and parameters...the main tank, not the QT? I'm just not sure I want to mess with a tank with an active substrate at this point. I'd like to have just a single tank at this point and keep my PFR's and have tigers in with them. I'd really like to get tigers either that come from water already close to what I have or see if they can be successfully acclimated to my water and thrive in it.


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## JYY626 (May 14, 2009)

Parameters of main tank is:
TDS 135
GH 4
kH 0-1
Temp 72
ADA New Amazonia II
3 Eheim 2217s

Here are some pics
Main tank CRS/CBS Golden CRS and FR.
I also found out today that there was 11 tigers left instead of previous count of 8 :red_mouth
Still a long shot from 130 though haha


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

I love the tank. What's the pH?


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## Puddles (Jan 5, 2013)

beautiful tank, I love "trees" in aquariums


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## JYY626 (May 14, 2009)

Ph is about 6.4 Ada and ro water will give you that ph
I saw the substrate you're using it should be fine...
Try to get your water to like 150-200 tds for tigers I keep mine 135 low because I have crystals.
But the tigers are doing fine in it you can see a berried female in the last pic on the left.
I think I might get my tds up to 150 since I read it was better for color and babies etc

Main tank kind of messy from rearranging stuff. I put a few pieces of wood with moss in the quarantine tanks and tied a bunch of new pieces of drift wood, I just tossed them in without arranging them.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

So I asked Msjinkzd about her water parameters since she would be my source for tigers, she was last time too. Her water is pretty darn close to mine, so at this point I don't think that was the issue. I think maybe from stress and perhaps slightly high water temp, they got hit with a bacteria infection. 

So anyways, know knowing that my water should not be the issue since it comes close enough to hers, I think that maybe with some QT time, treatment for bacteria infection, and making sure the temps stay low, I might be able to give this another try. 

Would it be recommended to pre-treat the shrimp during QT or just let them ride and treat if any of them start showing signs? What's the recommended treatment? I'd like to have some meds on hand regardless whether I pre-treat or not.

The plan is to try maybe 10 shrimp in either a 10g tank bare bottom with some moss or if I can find a suitable smaller tank, I'd use that. I think for 10 shrimp in QT, 5g would be ideal. I'd use water from their future home so that they get well acclimated and there won't be any shock going from QT to main tank.

Anyone else have any suggestions?


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

On another note, I'm excited because I have no less than 5 super fat berried PFR's in the tank at the moment. As long as I've had these guys, this is the fist time they've berried which has me wondering why because I really haven't done anything different and these shrimp have been in the tank for months, so maturity wasn't a issue. Regardless, there's lots of eggs so hopefully very soon there will be lots of babies.


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