# Using Oil-Dri for cheap substrate?



## Zefrik (Oct 23, 2011)

I am going to set up a couple very low-tech 10 gallons in my basement to hold some extra plants and I was looking for a cheap substrate. I want to try something different though for these tanks. I have heard that kitty litter works well, but is there a difference between that and Oil-Dri?

I also need to add some to my emersed tank so it is not just mud sitting in the open.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

The best of the Oil Dri sorts of products is Safe T Sorb. So far I have only found it available at Tractor Supply. 

Kitty Litter may work for some, but different kinds may fall apart, cloud the water and so on. 

The Oil Dri products are better, do some more research. Many are white or off white. That is not much of an issue in a grow out tank, but if you move those plants to a tank with different substrate and some of the Oil Dri sticks to the roots the whiter material of most Oil Dri products would not work too well. 

Safe T Sorb seems the best of them all. Pretty good color too. 

A related material is used in sports fields, and may be cheaper if you are not near a Tractor Supply. For me it is about twice the price, but the saving in gas makes it half the price of going to Tractor Supply. It is sold at irrigation stores like Ewing or John Deere. It is called Turface Pro League. It comes in several colors. The redder one is too red, but the other colors are fairly subtle. I started using Soil Master Select, Charcoal and it works pretty well, and I like the color. Unfortunately SMS is not available any more. Turface is about the same, though. 

All of these materials are relatively lightweight, so some plants might need a rock on them to hold them down until they root. 
They are all high cationic exchange capacity. 
Turface and SMS will remove the carbonates from the water. I have stopped that with coral sand, mixing something like 50% Turface with 50% coral sand. I use that for a Lake Tanganyika tank. You could also mix in oyster shell grit (sold for caged birds like Budgies) or limestone sand or very fine gravel.


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## Trickerie (May 10, 2012)

Look no further 

http://www.drillspot.com/products/1476408/Moltan_7941_Montmorillonite_Clay_Absorbant_40_lb

$10, free shipping. How does he do it!


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

WOW! That is great! I know it is cheaper at TS, but TS is not anywhere near me. To get it for just $10 would be wonderful!


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## sowNreap (Jun 10, 2012)

Diana said:


> [snipped] .......
> Turface and SMS will remove the carbonates from the water. I have stopped that with coral sand, mixing something like 50% Turface with 50% coral sand. I use that for a Lake Tanganyika tank. You could also mix in oyster shell grit (sold for caged birds like Budgies) or limestone sand or very fine gravel.


I'm getting ready to change the substrate in my 75 gal to the Safe-T-Sorb which I think will remove carbonates also. ??? I thought I read soaking it first would help that problem ... does it? I soaked it for several weeks. 

I had already bought some oyster shell grit in anticipation but now thinking if the soaking doesn't help much that it's no where near enough since you're using 50/50 mix Turface/coral sand. I wasn't planning on mixing it but rather putting it in my filters. Is that even going to work as it sounds like it requires way more than I'll have room for. I've got a test kit coming but right now have no idea what my kh or gh is. So I guess I'll just have to wait for the kit, do some testing and go from there.


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## SpecGrrl (Jul 26, 2012)

Trickerie said:


> Look no further
> 
> http://www.drillspot.com/products/1476408/Moltan_7941_Montmorillonite_Clay_Absorbant_40_lb
> 
> $10, free shipping. How does he do it!



Holy smoke free shipping?!?


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## Trickerie (May 10, 2012)

Yep. It's the real deal, I used this same bag in my 25g and have a ton left over. It's WAY less dusty than oil dri and looks much better. 

The carbonate absorption goes away after a little while, but it depends on how much you use. Personally, I use gh booster every water change so it's not a big deal


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Carbonate and GH is not the same. 

I have used SMS and Turface that remove KH but leave the GH alone. I assume the other clays will behave similarly, but an actual test run is the only way to know for sure. 

I have coral sand and oyster shell grit in the filters of some tanks, and it is not enough to offset the removal of carbonates by the SMS. 

Soaking in liquid rock might help. So much carbonates the material gets saturated. Cannot remove any more from the water. That eventually happened with some of the SMS that I kept adding baking soda to. 

Safe T Sorb ordered!


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

SafeTSorb #7941 in 10 gallon grow-out tank


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## BlueSlurpee (Jul 18, 2008)

Trickerie said:


> Look no further
> 
> http://www.drillspot.com/products/1476408/Moltan_7941_Montmorillonite_Clay_Absorbant_40_lb
> 
> $10, free shipping. How does he do it!


Wow, great find! Thank you so much for sharing.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

I like the color and mixed sizes as shown in the picture posted by Roy. I hope my tank will look as nice!


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## sowNreap (Jun 10, 2012)

@ diana .. what is liquid rock? 

I really should have "pre-charged" the STS when I was soaking it but the long soak wasn't really intentional. Just had too many other things going on to deal with it. And I was using the copious amounts of rainfall to help clean it.

So hopefully between the oyster shell grit and baking soda I keep the Kh up. Guess I'll find out.


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## Trickerie (May 10, 2012)

Yeah, my mistake. Ive always thought it was CaCO3 in the GH booster, not CaSO4 :|



Diana said:


> Carbonate and GH is not the same.
> 
> I have used SMS and Turface that remove KH but leave the GH alone. I assume the other clays will behave similarly, but an actual test run is the only way to know for sure.
> 
> ...


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## aztx (Jul 6, 2010)

sowNreap said:


> @ diana .. what is liquid rock?


"Liquid rock" is a term used by many to describe water that is extremely hard and alkaline. The water in my area, for instance, has an EXTREMELY high carbonate content (and mineral content in general), so it's often referred to as "liquid rock".


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Tank is set up with Safe-T-Sorb. The substrate looks just like Roy's picture! I am still working out the 'scape. 40 lb bag did a tank 5' x 16", 2" deep. I actually have it sloped, only about 1" in the front, 3" in the back. I doubt it will stay, though. 

I dumped it into the tank dry (very careful not to breathe the dust) then filled the tank about 6" with a strong flow from the hose, making sure to stir the material as much as I could. Water was pretty muddy looking. Pumped that out. Second filling (again, 6" deep, lots of stirring) still somewhat muddy, but better. 
Next filling was running the water in slowly over the (empty) STS bag. The filled tank has some haze to it, but I would go ahead and put fish in it, it is not that bad. However, I am doing a fishless cycle while I continue 'scaping, so fish are a little while off.
I will also monitor the KH, and report back.


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## sowNreap (Jun 10, 2012)

aztx said:


> "Liquid rock" is a term used by many to describe water that is extremely hard and alkaline. The water in my area, for instance, has an EXTREMELY high carbonate content (and mineral content in general), so it's often referred to as "liquid rock".


Oh ok.. thanks. I thought it was something I could buy to soak my STS in. LOL


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

I suppose you could make some liquid rock!
Since these materials remove the KH, you could make some high KH water to soak the substrate in, see if it would reduce the problems with KH being removed later, when things are set up. 

I suppose you could also add fertilizers. With a high cationic exchange capacity you could pre-load the substrate. 

STS in the 88 gallon tank is still looking good, the water is a lot clearer. (I am running 2 canister filters on it).


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## sowNreap (Jun 10, 2012)

The rinsed STS has been sitting in my 18 gallon totes for so long now it's probably dry again. LOL Yeah I should have pre-loaded it. May still do it yet. I seem to keep putting off changing the substrate out since it seems like it's going to be a big job and would prefer to have it some on 1 day.

So it only took you 1-40lb bag to do an 88 gal tank. I bought 2 thinking I would need more than 1 bag for my 75 gal. I guess I'll have plenty. 

I added several handfuls to my almost full of water tank a while back right before my bluegill started making his nest just to see how much of a mess it would make with all his tail fanning ... wasn't bad at all. And what little he did stir up settled quickly with almost no clouding of the water. Of course that was just 1 little area and it did get mixed into the gravel, but was happy enough with it's performance to do the whole tank. Someday soon I'll get around to that. :icon_lol:


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Yes, the 40 lb was barely enough. 5' x 16", and the substrate would be barely 2" if it was flat. 

Tank is quite clear, now. 

Ammonia is disappearing, but I think it is the plants. No nitrite yet. Nitrate is about consistent with the fertilizer dosing, or maybe a bit higher. I have not added much in the way of nitrifying bacteria. Just what was on the plants. The plants came out of tanks with very small bio load, so very few bacteria came with them. 

KH is still as high as the tap water that I filled the tank with.


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## sowNreap (Jun 10, 2012)

I won't be sloping front to back but may have some small mounds and valleys. Figured I'd have 4" in some spots while others may have only 2". I calculated for 3" if it was flat across the tank so bought an extra bag. I sure didn't want to run out while in the middle of re-doing the tank. Don't think the fishy's would like that. It's going to be stressful enough for them as it is. Plus I can always use the extra in another tank. 

Keeps us informed how the KH does if you don't mind.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Something odd going on... the KH is rising. 
Uh-oh... I used some pond fertilizer tablets that were in poor shape- more like powder to granules, not tablets any more. Dusted it on the bottom, under the substrate. 

Fishless cycle chugging right along. Ammonia and nitrite readings high enough to grow plenty of bacteria. 
Nitrate, too, but I add fertilizer for the plants, a blend that includes N. (plus the pond ferts!) 

I may have over done the ferts. Gotta move more plants into the tank.


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## Trickerie (May 10, 2012)

Weird. Did you use all sts? Or just a cap?


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

All I used was the Safe-T-Sorb, 40 pound bag. 
The only additive was the pond fertilizer tablets, and they were pretty beat up. The granules went under the substrate. 

The filters have an assortment of sponges, floss and ceramic bio-noodles. No chemical media. 

Since then I have been adding ammonia for the bacteria, and fertilizers (macros and micros) for the plants. 
KNO3
KH2PO4
K2SO4
CSM+B
Chelated Iron
Excel

The bacteria are removing about 1 ppm ammonia each day, so I add enough to bring it up to 3 ppm, about every other day. It got down to 1 ppm this evening. Nitrite is high. (I have a hard time telling the difference in the colors on the strips, and my API NO2 test is so old it no longer reacts)

KH is coming back down, and the pH is a bit lower. I think there was something in the fertilizer tablets. But what is making the KH drop so fast? The bacteria can't be growing THAT fast! They do use carbonates, but this is way more of a drop than that!


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## Trickerie (May 10, 2012)

The sts sucks carbonates out of the water like a vacuum. This will continue for quite a while since you used 40 lbs. My suggestion is to buffer it quite high each water change to let the sts charge itself quicker. I used only a cap of it, and it still took a few weeks to stop


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Yup, I bet the STS is taking over and removing KH. KH is totally crashed and pH is at the bottom of the chart. Added 2 tablespoons baking soda; this ought to raise the KH by about 4 German degrees of hardness, and bring the pH up a bit. 

I added a lot of rock as a background, stirring the substrate some. It clouded up while I was working, then settled down really fast. This is a very good substrate, that way. It has not even been an hour since I was up to my shoulders moving rocks around, and the water has only a slight haze remaining.


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## rodcuda (Jul 25, 2012)

What did the substrate pull the ph down to?


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## starquestMM (Aug 26, 2012)

I just converted a 10gal to sts and am really likeing it. It dropped the kh from about 14 to 8 and ph went down from 8.2 to 7.6 so it really does pull in the minerals. 

I'm wondering if it would work to take some fresh dry sts and "load" it using ferts? Basically take some RO/DI water and dissolve whatverer micros and macros into it. Then add the sts for a week or so, rinse and use.


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## Trickerie (May 10, 2012)

It does work and many have done it.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Diana said:


> Yup, I bet the STS is taking over and removing KH. KH is totally crashed and pH is at the bottom of the chart. Added 2 tablespoons baking soda; this ought to raise the KH by about 4 German degrees of hardness, and bring the pH up a bit.


Hi Diana,

I realize that baking soda will raise the dKH, and I use an online calculator to determine the amount of baking soda to add to accomplish the desired change. 

How were you able to determine the dGH (General / German) change that would occur by adding the two tablespoons of baking soda?


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Roy, I have done this before with Soil Master Select. The first time was in a 29 gallon tank, KH and pH bottom of the test (KH=0, pH =6 or lower). 
Add 1 teaspoon baking soda, let it circulate. Test. KH =2 German degrees of hardness, pH = 6.2. Repeated several times on 2 tanks the same size, then later similar results with other tanks ranging from 10 gallons to 125 gallons. 

So... 1 teaspoon in a 29 (Done over several years, many tanks) = 2 degrees
so... 2 tablespoons in a 88 (The tank under discussion today) = 4 degrees

There are 3 teaspoons in a tablespoon, so I added 6 times as much to a tank that is 3 times as large, so the KH change ought to be twice as much. 

It was late yesterday when I added the baking soda, so I did not go check it after it had circulated, and by now the substrate has probably removed it. I will post the test results later, and what I do about it. 

I also have pH test strips that came from a lab, and test lower than the aquarium tests, so I will use those. They are probably more accurate, too. 
KH test is API and Jungle test strips. I can use double the water sample in the API test to fine tune the numbers. No, the tests are not calibrated. While I am willing to pretend that I have results down into decimal places, I know it is not that accurate. 

I am looking at the big picture:
This substrate removes pretty much all the carbonates from the water. 
This allows the pH to drop way too low for the nitrifying bacteria to reproduce. (I am running the fishless cycle on this tank, remember)
So I want to fix it. 
This would mean raising the KH to at least 3 degrees, and probably higher. (The original work identifying the correct species of nitrifying bacteria used a KH of about 8-9 German degrees of hardness, if I remember). 

starquest, I think that is a good idea. These products have a high cationic exchange capacity, and will indeed soak up a lot of fertilizer. When I was using Soil Master Select and the EI method of fertilizing I think I got that substrate really well saturated with fertilizers. When I stopped dosing the tanks for a while the plants continued to do well for a couple of months. I would be leery of using too much fertilizer, though. You would not want so much that it would leach out into the tank water. I understand what a dry start is, but the root zone is wet, and too much fertilizer in the root zone may not be good. So, soak the substrate in fertilizer rich water, then drain away that water and refill with ordinary water (RO, tap or whatever- not enriched with fertilizer). 

On the schedule for today: Water change. The ammonia removing bacteria are growing like crazy and have spiked the NO2 too high. I am not sure about the NO2 removing bacteria. It is too soon for them to really be growing that well, but the NO3 is high, too. I am thinking some of the NO3 reading is from fertilizer, and some from the bacteria. 
I will test tap and tank before and after. (Garden plants are going to love this water!)

Water company adds sodium hydroxide to raise the pH. I suppose that is another item removed by the substrate, or else why would the pH drop so much? Normally the tap water is KH 4-5 degrees and pH high 7s, occasionally low 8s.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Seems like a lot work to keep the parameters balanced. Wouldn't buy any expensive fish until you get the parameters balanced. If you get tired of it you could take most of it out and add river sand without taking all of the water out. 

I got a 50lb bag of river sand from landscaping co for $3.


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## sowNreap (Jun 10, 2012)

So I'm assuming from the conversation that "pre-loading" the STS with ferts would help keep it from sucking up all the carbonates??

Any guidance on what ferts and how much to use for say 40 lb's. I actually have 80 lb but it's in 2 separate tubs waiting for me to put in my tank. Might as well load it up while it's just sitting there.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

All right, here are today's results:

Recap: Tank was started Aug 30. 
88 gallon tank with Safe-T-Sorb (1 bag, 40 lbs) as substrate. 
Large flat rocks (neutral with respect to GH, KH, pH or TDS changes) have been installed across the back of the tank. This has taken up some of the water volume. I will take a wild guess and say maybe 5 gallons? Maybe a bit more. I am going to use 8 gallons, just to make the math easier. 

Initial fill was done this way:
STS dumped in dry. 
Tank filled to about 6" with lots of stirring, then siphoned out. 
Refilled the same, and again siphoned out. At that point I moved the substrate around and put some old pond tablets under it. The 'tablets' were falling apart and more more like sand-sized particles. 
3rd fill was to the top of the tank. 
Tap water, dechlor. 
I started adding ammonia, testing and adding until I had 5 ppm. Perhaps a bit more. 
I also dosed macros (KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4)
Plants include 1 Anubias, some Valisneria, Hornwort, Water Lettuce, Duckweed and Azolla.
Filters are 2 Fluval 404 canisters. with sponges, floss and bio media. They were used, but dry, I assume all the bacteria was dead. I thought there were no chemical media in there, but today I cleaned them and found 1 nylon stocking with some coral sand, perhaps 1/2 cup, and 2 stockings of peat moss, perhaps 1-1/2 cup total. 

Next day I tested the KH. Way high. I assumed it was the pond tablets. Ammonia showing, and a trace of nitrite and nitrate. I assumed these last 2 were from the fertilizer, not nitrifying bacteria. 

Over the following week I kept track of the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate to monitor the growth of the nitrifying bacteria. 

At the end of the week (yesterday) I tested the KH. It had dropped almost to 0. pH was also very low (test goes down to 6.2) I have seen this before with Soil Master Select. I added 2 tablespoons of baking soda. (Per math in post above, that should raise the KH by 4 German degrees of hardness). It was late last night when I added it, so did not wait for it to circulate to re-test. I also tested the NO2. It was off the chart. This has been developing over time, suggesting to me the bacteria are getting going, rather than the sudden release from the fertilizer tablets. (The pond ferts don't have NO2, anyway)

Today:

Tested tank
KH test was the API test, but I used 10 ml of water. At 7 drops (3.5 degrees) the water was no longer blue, but I would not call it yellow. At 8 drops (4 degrees) the water really was yellow. 
pH was 6.6 according to 2 different tests. 
TDS 538 (I have been dosing EI macros and micros, the baking soda last night, and ammonia, and remember those tablets!)

Tap water:
KH was tested using the 10 ml method. At 5 drops it was that 'not really blue, not yet yellow' and another drop made it really yellow. So 3 degrees (Side note: this is lower than average for my tap water).
pH over 8 by all the tests I have, probably 8.4 (Side note: this is higher than usual, but I have seen it this high before. Water company adds sodium hydroxide to the water)
TDS 221 (About average)
Chlorine and ammonia in the tap water show just about 1 ppm, exactly what it almost always shows. Chloramine in the water. 

So... 
Drained the tank down until the water was lower than the top of the substrate, but perhaps still an inch or so in there. 
Re-arranged the rocks. Added some more rocks (so I really will pretend the rocks and substrate take up 8 gallons of volume.) This caused a very small amount of clouding that settled very quickly. 
Cleaned the filters. They had some silty stuff, from the substrate. I have sponges over the intake and they had some plant roots and dead Duckweed on them. I was not too aggressive cleaning them, more sloshing the media in the used tank water, not really squeezing them much at all. 
Refilled. Hose was aimed over the rocks so it did not stir the substrate much at all, and the fill was almost perfectly clear. Not quite, but an hour of running the filters and it was clear. 
The plants did not like the ammonia. Anubias was in very bad shape, but new growth showing. The Vals were soft at the last few inches of the leaves, but the crown, root and several inches of the leaves were fine. I am sure these will recover. Water Lettuce not affected. Duckweed and Azolla are reduced, but what is still there is either dead (a lot of duckweed) or thriving (both Duckweed and Azolla have green healthy leaves, but not many of them.). I have lost a lot of the Azolla, and I do not know where it is. Gone. 
Hornwort probably won't come back. 
Added dechlor (Sodium thiosulfate- does not lock up ammonia)
Added 2 tablespoons baking soda directly into the flow from the filters. Slowly. I think it dissolved almost instantly.
Trace minerals. I used Seachem Cichlid trace, intended for Rift Lake fish. I have used it before and seen almost no response from the tests. It does have a very low level of Ca and Mg, and has many of the trace minerals plants need. 
Ammonia.

Tests done within a few minutes of filling:
KH 5 German degrees of hardness. Tap water about 3, added enough baking soda to make it closer to 7, but tested so soon it was probably not well distributed. Will test again tomorrow. 
pH 7.8, tested with 2 different tests. Note that this is lower than the tap water that I just added. The test (API high range) was really different, and so obvious that it is not 'user error'. I read the results right. The other test (a lab quality pH strip) agreed. 
TDS 270 (Higher than the tap water, but seeing all the stuff I added, I am not surprised.)
Ammonia 4 ppm.
Chlorine was neutralized right away, per 3 different tests done a few minutes apart. 

Tests done about an hour after tank had been refilled, water circulating:
Nitrite: 5 ppm. Hm. Hm. mmmmmmmm. Maybe the last test where it was WAY off the chart was really *WAY* off the chart? Then even though I got rid of almost all, there was some clinging to the substrate, and is now in the water. Darn, I hoped it would be lower. 
NO3: under 20 ppm. 
pH 8.4 per 2 tests (Gosh, back up again- glad there are no fish in there!)
KH: This was tested with the strips, and showed higher than I would have thought, between 200-300 ppm (= 11-16 degrees) Hm. I wonder if the pond 'tablets' have dumped another dose into the water. They sure got stirred around when I put the rocks in. 
GH = 100 ppm = 5.5 degrees. (All my other GH tests are old, no longer work, so this strip is the only way I have to test it)


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## Trickerie (May 10, 2012)

The carbonates being absorbed isn't a huge deal, as long as you don't allow the pH to crash drastically. As long as kH is 1-2 you will be fine. My kH out of tap is only 1, and I've never had any issues. When I first started with the sts, I simply added some baking soda for the first 3-4 water changes. Since then, it's been completely fine. The sts has a very high cec, so this behavior is expected. It's not all bad, either, because these minerals will be kept for the root systems in the substrate. Don't be afraid to use sts because of this. The fact this occurs makes the substrate VERY good.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

The high CEC is why I am going with something close to EI dosing even while I am cycling the tank. Get lots of ferts in there to load up the substrate. 

I have run a lot of tanks with Soil Master Select, and have no problems with the low to zero KH and low pH. Once the system is cycled the bacteria can slow down and it is not a problem. It is just while trying to build up the population as quickly as possible that I want to maintain harder water, higher pH. Then it can crash, and that is fine with me. It will match most of my other tanks. 
Then I can move the fish over. I will be putting my Filimentosa Barbs in the 88. They are somewhat plant-nippy, so I am researching plants that are OK with Goldfish under the assumption that they will be OK with the Barbs, too.

My long posts reporting what is going on can be summarized really quickly:

This substrate removes the KH, thus allowing the pH to drop. 
This substrate has high CEC, so loading it with fertilizer is a good way to assure the plants have a good reserve. 

What you do with these facts is up to you.


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## sowNreap (Jun 10, 2012)

Trickerie said:


> The carbonates being absorbed isn't a huge deal, as long as you don't allow the pH to crash drastically. As long as kH is 1-2 you will be fine. My kH out of tap is only 1, and I've never had any issues. When I first started with the sts, I simply added some baking soda for the first 3-4 water changes. Since then, it's been completely fine. The sts has a very high cec, so this behavior is expected. It's not all bad, either, because these minerals will be kept for the root systems in the substrate. Don't be afraid to use sts because of this. The fact this occurs makes the substrate VERY good.


Thanks for the info. My Kh from tap is about 3dkh and the tank is about 2 so I should be ok. Ph is stable now at about 6.4. I just need to get some fresh baking soda.

It's not that I'm afraid of using the STS it's more I'm avoiding the time & work involved in changing it. LOL I've got to find several consecutive hours which has been hard here lately. Plus I've been waiting for my new driftwood to stay sunk so I can remove some of the rocks that's holding it down.

Now that the weather cooled a bit I'll try harder to get it done. That way the fish can stay outside in containers rather than having to find room in my house. I can use an outdoor extension cord to run my HOB &/or sponge filters in the tub(s). Then I won't have to worry about being in a hurry. I have a tendency to keep messing around with the plant arrangement so it seems to take me forever to get it just right. 

I've got a low-tech, lowish light tank. I only use Excel, Comprehensive and Sulfate of Potash and some root tabs around my Sword. Don't really need NO3 in this tank as it's never below 30ppm. I could take my remaining root tabs & put them in there and add some Sulfate of Potash. How much of either would I use for 40lbs ??? Should I break up or crush the tabs? Sorry for so many questions but appreciate the help.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

I sure would not break up or crush the tablets. 
Put the tablets on the floor of the tank before adding the substrate, or else press them in through the substrate until they touch the bottom. I would put 3-5 around the Sword depending on the size of the sword, and maybe space them about 6" apart if the tank is heavily planted, or 1-2 per plant if it is lightly planted. 

K2SO4: I have only ever used it as a dry dose or wet as a water column fertilizer, never in setting up a tank. If you want to try it maybe a very light dusting on the floor of the tank, but still able to see through it. Part of the problem is that adding sulfur to the lower regions of the substrate might contribute to H2S that can happen with low oxygen areas. If you had a different source of K that might be a better option. 

If the fish food is already keeping the NO3 close to 30 ppm then I also would not dose N or P. Fish food also seems to have enough phosphate, if it has enough N. 

Today's test showed dropping KH, so I added baking soda, and rising NO2 and NO3. I may have to do another water change to get that NO2 lower. :-(


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## sowNreap (Jun 10, 2012)

Diana said:


> I sure would not break up or crush the tablets.
> Put the tablets on the floor of the tank before adding the substrate, or else press them in through the substrate until they touch the bottom. I would put 3-5 around the Sword depending on the size of the sword, and maybe space them about 6" apart if the tank is heavily planted, or 1-2 per plant if it is lightly planted.


I was really thinking about soaking the STS with the root tabs & potash prior to adding it to the tank. Or would it even be worth the effort? I thought maybe the root tabs & Potash would get sucked up by the STS and then be available through-out the tank benefiting all the plants. But that may not even be necessary since most of my plants are Cabomba, Water Sprite, Water Wisteria and just 1 Sword. I do have some Ludwigia glandulosa peruensis which I realize is a high light plant but I liked the way the leaves and plant looked so figured even if it turned green it'd still be good. It actually does have some red coloring to it so better than I expected.  All seem to be doing pretty good with the exception of the sword.

Thanks for the info on how many to use around that sword. I definitely don't have enough in there right now so will have to add more. Maybe why it's only putting out new leaves but not growing up. I had to trim off about 4-5 of the 15" long leaves because the fish tore them up when my male was spawning. Would those ponds tablets be good for that? Or would the Osmocote caps be better. I'll need to buy more of something and of course looking for the cheapest option that works good.  Guess I should have started a thread about this in the Ferts forum. 



Diana said:


> K2SO4: I have only ever used it as a dry dose or wet as a water column fertilizer, never in setting up a tank. If you want to try it maybe a very light dusting on the floor of the tank, but still able to see through it. Part of the problem is that adding sulfur to the lower regions of the substrate might contribute to H2S that can happen with low oxygen areas. If you had a different source of K that might be a better option.


I've been using the Sulfate of Potash by just dropping it into the tank dry which I read was ok. 



Diana said:


> If the fish food is already keeping the NO3 close to 30 ppm then I also would not dose N or P. Fish food also seems to have enough phosphate, if it has enough N.


Thanks for the confirmation of what I assumed. No need for me to dose either of those. 



Diana said:


> Today's test showed dropping KH, so I added baking soda, and rising NO2 and NO3. I may have to do another water change to get that NO2 lower. :-(


Curious to see how long the KH will keep dropping. If you weren't trying to cycle the tank I guess I wouldn't be as much of a problem.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

It will keep dropping for a long time. Depends on how much baking soda I add. I was not being particularly diligent about adding baking soda to my Soil Master Select tanks, and that is still going on! (and it has been several years)
I agree, if I were not cycling the tank it would be no problem at all. 

The other solution that worked in my Lake Tanganyikan tank is to blend coral sand with the substrate. Then it will not take the carbonates from the water column. I do have to prep the water with baking soda so it is right when I do a water change, but I do not have to dose more baking soda mid-week. The tank maintains the KH I set when I do a water change. I do not like the look of that, though. I like the darker substrate. Coral sand would look really bad blended with the nice color of the STS. 

I might just pull one of the filters and cycle it in a bucket of water. No issue there with keeping the water parameters right. Just dose ammonia as needed. 

I think the pond tablets (which were more broken up, not really tablets any more) are adding a lot of N to this tank. Nitrates are way higher than I am dosing via KNO3, and too high for the bacteria to be turning the ammonia into nitrate, yet. At about 1 week into the fishless cycle the NO2-->NO3 bacteria are just not that well developed.


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## sowNreap (Jun 10, 2012)

This past Sat afternoon on into early AM Sunday, I got around to changing my substrate to the STS. Figured I'd relate my experience in this same thread for anyone that might be interested. I really like the way this stuff looks!!! Think my fish like it better too. It took a few days but they appear to have gotten over being mad at me for all I put them through. 

I'm not at all sure pre-rinsing did any good. Couldn't tell because on the first fill I tripped over the water hose causing it to spray right into the substrate.  What a muddy looking mess that was. About what it looked like the first time I rinsed it. Drained and started over. On the 2nd fill my driftwood, which I tested before I drained the tank, decided to float which stirred up the substrate, moved some of the plants and after getting it back into position and anchored down .. well I ended up with another mess. Since the tank was close to being full I just finished filling and hoped the filter would clear it up. Being the impatient person I am, after 2 hrs and not looking much clearer I said the heck with it. Drained tank again and finally 3rd time was the charm.  I've done some re-arranging of plants which stirs up the substrate and clouds the water a bit but at least it settles back quick and the filter clears the water quickly. Think I'd recommend doing it the way Diana did ... put substrate in tank, add some water, stir, remove muddy water, repeat and then fill. Much easier than trying to pre-rinse it in buckets/containers when using 40lbs of it. 

I've had a bit of trouble getting some plants to stay put. My dwarf lily kept wanting to float so put some small stones around it to hold it down. So far, so good. My Sword doesn't have a lot of long roots, so it looks like it wants to float but so far it hasn't. Put a couple stones around it too just in case. A couple plants pop out occasionally but that's probably got more to do with big fish bumping them when chasing each other and not the substrate itself. Plus all plants were previously in too course a gravel which didn't help with growing good roots. 

Having to watch my water params kind of close since things didn't quite go as planned. Probably going to end up having a mini-cycle. Tested ammonia today and didn't look quite 0 but not quite .25 either but looked higher than before. Will check it again tomorrow and if needed will do a water change. 

Still waiting & watching for the KH to drop. Wondering if pre-soaking might have helped in that regard or maybe it's just too soon. Tested soon after filling and tested again today .. KH still holding at 2-3 degrees. Tap water also tests at 2-3 dkh. My PH dropped from 6.8 to 6.6 but 6.4 is usually what it reads a day or 2 before I do my weekly water change. My tap water tests at 6.4 immediately, then after sitting for 24hrs it's 6.8. GH reads same as always .. tap and tank both at 2 degrees and no change after 4 days. Just got some GH booster and will try to get that up just a bit. 

All in all, even though things didn't quite go right it wasn't as bad as I thought it'd be. Planning did help which made it go quicker, even if it didn't go exactly as I'd planned. Now I just hope it won't get too messy when my fish starts nest building. They should be done for the year now so I'll get to enjoy it until next spring.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

I absolutely love the STS. The one tank I used as a tester has long out performed all my other tanks. I'll be setting up two additional ones in the near future.

Here's another little tip for acquiring it. Check if they have any broken bags. I got two bags for $5 total. Between that and SMS, I have plenty of substrate for awhile.


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## celaeno (Dec 26, 2009)

Can I speed up the carbonate absorption process by dumping in a lot of baking soda? I plan on pre-treating the STS in the 40g this way before adding plants and livestock. Also, about how long does it take for the STS to stop affecting the KH, GH, and pH? What happens to the carbonates that're absorbed? Are they ever released back into the water?


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## kingfisherfleshy (Jun 4, 2010)

So...question. 

Im setting up a SA cichlid tank, and I want a dark substrate. 

Saw a post where this stuff was black...is it?

Do you think it will work with fish that are moving the substrate around all the time?

Our pH hardness and alk is all slightly above what I would describe neutral, and well buffered to its current point. 

If I run this for a few h2o changes will the negative effects go away?

Thanks


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## sowNreap (Jun 10, 2012)

celaeno said:


> Can I speed up the carbonate absorption process by dumping in a lot of baking soda? I plan on pre-treating the STS in the 40g this way before adding plants and livestock. Also, about how long does it take for the STS to stop affecting the KH, GH, and pH? What happens to the carbonates that're absorbed? Are they ever released back into the water?


I don't know the answers to your questions, unfortunately. Was hoping someone a lot more knowledgeable would chime in to help you out. 

I've seen people mention can keep sucking up the KH for several weeks to several months. ???

I haven't seen a drop in KH .. YET. It's only been about 11 days so still waiting to see if that happens. I soaked mine in rainwater for several weeks. Then drained the rainwater & because the rainwater was roof runoff, soaked, then rinsed it a bit with tap water ... we had a lot of very heavy rains before & during that time so was hoping not much bad roof stuff hurt it but rinsed some anyway just in case. Then it sat in containers for several more weeks until I got time to change the substrate so it dried out some. All that soaking time probably is what has kept the KH from dropping. I mean there's really not much difference between "soaking" it in the tank or buckets when no plants or livestock are involved. 

As I said in my previous post, I wouldn't pre-rinse it if I had it to do over again. But since I was using the rainwater it didn't cost anything. Nor did it take much effort since the tub was tilted slightly to allow the rainwater to spillover with the muddy water.

When I first put it in I did add a bit of baking soda (I think it was 2 tsp in my 75 gal) immediately after filling the tank. My tap and tank both are 2-3 dKH so figured it probably needed it anyway. But I think instead I should have just waited to see what it would do. I ended up checking the KH every few days anyway. I haven't added anymore since. I do have some oyster shell grit in the filter though. I had it in there for at least a month before I changed my substrate. 



kingfisherfleshy said:


> So...question.
> 
> Im setting up a SA cichlid tank, and I want a dark substrate.
> 
> ...


No this is NOT a black substrate. It's brownish, tan. On Page 1 of this thread there's a picture of it in Seattle Aquarist's tank: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=188458&highlight=safetsorb


I accidentally scared my Bluegills last night when I came home early. They ALL took off like they was shot from a canon and stirred up the substrate a LOT. The particles settled back pretty quickly but the water stayed cloudy for a bit longer. I've been messing around in it re-arranging plants or rocks and it will stir up easily but again, it settles quickly and depending on how much mess I made might not even cloud the water. My fish stir it up quite often just chasing each other but that doesn't seem to make the water cloudy .. just can see the smaller particles rise and fall back down. But they're not really rooting around in it, more their powerful movements stir it up. Not sure what it would be like it they were rooting around in it ALL the time. I guess it might depend on the size of the fish, mine range from 4"-7".


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

I do not know if there is a black substrate like this any more. 
Soil Master Select, Charcoal is very close to black, but is not available. 
Turface used to have a dark one, too, but the only colors I see at their site are gold, red and brown. 

Of the colors currently available I like the soft tan and grey blend of STS. Looks very natural, and is reasonably dark, though certainly not black. 

I found the KH was very quickly removed. Noticeable in the test results the next day (less than 24 hours) and zero by 48 hours (tap water KH is quite low). 
Each time I add baking soda (enough to raise the KH by about 2 German degrees of hardness) it drops to zero in about 48 hours. 

I suppose adding a lot of baking soda all at one time might do the trick, but I think I would look for other sources of carbonate, perhaps potassium bicarbonate. 
When I add baking soda in small doses I am also doing water changes often enough to get rid of the excess sodium. 

If there was any way to keep coral sand, oyster shell grit or limestone sand or fine gravel in larger quantities in the tank or filter, not let it blend with the substrate, I think that would be the best solution. Perhaps a second filter with a lot more of these materials. I am already running 2 filters on the 88 gallon tank, so I could sure put more of something in them, even if I have to reduce the amount of sponges in them.


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## celaeno (Dec 26, 2009)

I tried out the STS, but it's so dirty that rinsing is never ending. I took it out of my tank and it left behind a muddy (brown) residue and smell everywhere. I wiped the tank down with paper towel and there is still a muddy smell. Is the residue harmful to fish?


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi celaeno,

No, any residue is not harmful to fish.

STS in a 10 gallon


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

I recently restarted with safe-t-sorb, my findings:

- plants are very happy
- very easy to rinse!
- super cheap
- looks very natural, but also has an interesting and varied texture

My only complaint is that it seems quite light compared to other substrates, so it's easy to kick up dust when planting, etc. But, no problem! I am really happy with it and it was like 10 bucks for my 54g


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## kross (Feb 2, 2012)

Diana said:


> If there was any way to keep coral sand, oyster shell grit or limestone sand or fine gravel in larger quantities in the tank or filter, not let it blend with the substrate, I think that would be the best solution. Perhaps a second filter with a lot more of these materials. I am already running 2 filters on the 88 gallon tank, so I could sure put more of something in them, even if I have to reduce the amount of sponges in them.


I also live in Seattle where we have soft water with low KH. I'm using the aquariumplants.com substrate in the dark gray color, which is close to the SMS charcoal.

I put some aragonite sand that I had left over from my SW tank into a filter bag and put it into my canister filter, and it works perfectly to keep the KH up. It doesn't take a lot, really. I think the water constantly flowing through it in the filter makes up for the small quantity of sand.

Hope this helps!
-- Kevin


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## Tylt33 (Feb 14, 2010)

Why is everyone rinsing the Safe T Sorb in their tank or another container??? I just cut a hole in the top of the bag outside and stuck the garden hose in it until it ran clear... Seems way more efficient, unless I am missing something?


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## mike33 (Oct 2, 2012)

*Sts*

I purchased a bag and rinsed it twice before putting it all into the tank. Its been a a week and I've emptied the tank twice, running a polyfilter, extra flow etc but I am not having much luck in removing the dust. The second I brush the substrate a cloud of dust arises and completely clouds the tank. Is this normal? I'm not sure if I should just keep at it or get rid of it.


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## Tylt33 (Feb 14, 2010)

mike33 said:


> I purchased a bag and rinsed it twice before putting it all into the tank. Its been a a week and I've emptied the tank twice, running a polyfilter, extra flow etc but I am not having much luck in removing the dust. The second I brush the substrate a cloud of dust arises and completely clouds the tank. Is this normal? I'm not sure if I should just keep at it or get rid of it.


Is there anything else in the tank? If not, and there isn't too much, I'd put it all in a clean garbage bag and run a hose into the bag until the water coming out of the top of the bag is clear. I had to run a garden hose on full blast for about 10 minutes to get clear water.


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## jetajockey (Aug 23, 2010)

I recently broke down a large tank that had mineralized topsoil with oil-dri as a cap. It was running about a year, no major issues, just did a big changeup. Since I still had a screen setup from sifting through topsoil, I ran the year old oil dri/mud mix through the screen and the oil dri rinsed clean in a few minutes and is still holding its granular shape.

Ended up putting it in a new tank.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

> I just cut a hole in the top of the bag outside and stuck the garden hose in it until it ran clear


Sounds like a pretty simple way to do this. 
I tried it once with some lava rock. I punched a LOT of small holes in the bottom half of the bag and ran the hose in through the top, but it did not clean the lava rock very well. I had to dump small amounts into a bucket and stir it a lot with the hose running. I only needed a little bit of rock, so a couple of buckets with only about 1 gallon of rock at a time worked well. That was some really dusty rock, though!

I have usually rinsed substrate in the tank because I can stir it around a lot and keep the dust stirred up as it is being siphoned out.


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## Soujirou (Jun 16, 2008)

mike33 said:


> I purchased a bag and rinsed it twice before putting it all into the tank. Its been a a week and I've emptied the tank twice, running a polyfilter, extra flow etc but I am not having much luck in removing the dust. The second I brush the substrate a cloud of dust arises and completely clouds the tank. Is this normal? I'm not sure if I should just keep at it or get rid of it.


Was it rinsing clear after the second rinse and are you putting a plate down to pour water over when you first fill up the tank? When I put my plants in, it did kick up dust but it eventually cleared.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Soujirou said:


> When I put my plants in, it did kick up dust but it eventually cleared.


A product that will speed up the clearing is by Nutrafin Bio-clear.


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## FORREST3320 (Sep 9, 2011)

I just want to make sure i am understanding this correctly with this safe-t-absorb that is all you need for plants no root tabs or anything? Or are people useing this as a cap for dirt?


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## Tylt33 (Feb 14, 2010)

FORREST3320 said:


> I just want to make sure i am understanding this correctly with this safe-t-absorb that is all you need for plants no root tabs or anything? Or are people useing this as a cap for dirt?


I'm using it as a cap for MTS. I don't think it has much if any nutritive value?


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

FORREST3320 said:


> I just want to make sure i am understanding this correctly with this safe-t-absorb that is all you need for plants no root tabs or anything? Or are people useing this as a cap for dirt?


Hi FORREST3320,

You can do either; use it as a cap or as a substrate by itself. Tylt33 is correct, it contains minimal nutrients but is a excellent inert substrate with a high CEC.

Below is a picture of my 10 gallon with Safe-T-Sorb that I planted about 5 weeks prior to the picture being taken. It has two 10 watt 'daylight' cfl bulbs and I fertilize with Seachem Flourish Comprehensive and Seachem Excel for extra carbon molecules...nothing else is added. I am doing an experiment with the tank, I grew all the plants pictured emersed and moved directly into the tank; no CO2. Nothing 'melted' (including the crypt), nothing died.


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## FORREST3320 (Sep 9, 2011)

They look like the are doing very well. I think i might use it as a cap for mts for my 55 how dose it do at hold it shape like slopes and hills?


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi FORREST3320,

I set up the 10 gallon approximately the 1st of August and it is still holding a slope 2 months later. STS seems to be a little heavier than Soilmaster Select or Turface and it has multiple grain sizes from small to larger and I think those aspects help it to maintain a slope.


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## FORREST3320 (Sep 9, 2011)

Ok thank you


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

FORREST3320 said:


> I just want to make sure i am understanding this correctly with this safe-t-absorb that is all you need for plants no root tabs or anything?


I am not sold on this as a great substrate because - 


Trickerie said:


> It sucks carbonates out of the water like a vacuum. My suggestion is to buffer it quite high each water change to let the sts charge itself quicker. I used only a cap of it, and it still took a few weeks to stop


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Hilde,

Soil (CEC= 24+) has a CEC almost as high as any of the Montmorillonite clay substrates (CEC= 27) such as Soilmaster Select, Turface, and STS. Sand has a CEC of basically "0" and Flourite has a CEC of about 1.7. As I understand it, it is the high CEC that causes a substrate (or soil) to absorb minerals and nutrients and make them available to the plants in the root zone.

Lots of our members like the ADA Aquasoil products like Amazonia which has a high CEC. What are aquasoils?


> aquasoils are not gravels. They are made by mixing nutrient rich tropical soils with colloidal clays (totally “dissolving” in water) as bentonite/montmorillonite/fuller’s earth/palygorskite or akadama like clay, or volcanic ash soil, than dried at moderate temperatures, i.e. they are NOT “fire kilned”. Clay surves as a binding agent, but the main thing such clay gives to substrate is a high CEC - ability to hold nutrients and releasing them only when plants needs them. Tropical soils is a source of nutrients stored in organic form. They also have very high humic substances content which enables aquasoils to lower pH and GH for a big time frame creating mild acidic environments for keeping water plants and shrimps. Organics and humics also creates perfect environment for bacteria and protozoa greatly facilitating cycling all natural processes of a tank. Tropical soils and humates have very high CEC also.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Safe-T-Sorb, Turface, Soil Master Select, and many other substrates do not come pre-loaded with fertilizer. You need to add the nutrients plants need. 

Sort of like buying a set of dishes and hoping they came pre-loaded with dinner. 

Substrate is the holding material, it is not the food. 

High CEC substrate will hold onto the fertilizers and release them slowly as the plants need them. But you need to keep on top of adding more fertilizer. The plants are sequestering fertilizer in their leaves, roots and stems. When you prune the plants you are removing the fertilizers from the system. You need to put some fertilizers back. 

This is true of ALL substrates. Some come with certain amounts of some nutrients pre-loaded, but these nutrients get used up and removed from the system. They need to be put back. The high CEC substrates provide a very good cushion, an excellent reserve of fertilizers so you can be a bit forgetful about dosing and the substrate provides the back up. Doing an 'overdose' sort of fertilizer regime like EI can really add lots of fertilizers to the substrate. Then, when you go on vacation you do not need to worry about dosing. You have built up a reserve that the plants can call on while you are gone.


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## dmagerl (Feb 2, 2010)

I bought a 40 lb bag of STS at the local Farm & Fleet store for $4.50.

The attached photo shows the test I'm running in my 55g tank. Only a tiny corner of the tank was converted to STS. The black stuff is black Flourite. I've been really disappointed in the growth I've been getting from the Flourite. I had previously used Hi-Dri as a substrate and plant growth was phenomenal. I only changed to Flourite because I got tired of a beige substrate. It just seemed that Hi-Dri did better at growing plants than Flourite did so I'm testing STS in parallel with Flourite. 

The STS is just planted with a few micro chain swords. Normally they grow like crazy and take over the tank but I didnt see that with Flourite. I use both root tabs (aquariumplants.com tabs) and EI dosing. There are 4 tabs buried under that patch of STS.

I'll know in a few weeks how well the STS works.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi dmagerl,

Please post some results in 2-3 weeks!


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## Texans (Oct 15, 2012)

wish I could buy this


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## Trickerie (May 10, 2012)

Check my drill spot link a few pages back


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## dmagerl (Feb 2, 2010)

Its been roughly 6 weeks so I thought I post another picture. Scroll up a few postings to see the original picture just after planting.

I actually stopped the test in the corner of the tank and did the entire tank in STS. I've gotten more growth in these 6 weeks than in 6 months with Flourite. Fertilization is with aquariumplants.com root tabs CO2 too. Lighting is 25 umols

There was a Sword in the background of the first pic. I pulled it up and replanted with a smaller one and its now happily sending leaves out.

There's no sign or crumbling or disintegration of the STS. I really like this stuff.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

dmagerl said:


> Its been roughly 6 weeks so I thought I post another picture. Scroll up a few postings to see the original picture just after planting.
> 
> I actually stopped the test in the corner of the tank and did the entire tank in STS. I've gotten more growth in these 6 weeks than in 6 months with Flourite. Fertilization is with aquariumplants.com root tabs CO2 too. Lighting is 25 umols
> 
> ...


Hi dmagerl,

Wow, nice improvement in the last 6 weeks; thanks for the update!


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## lochaber (Jan 23, 2012)

Texans said:


> wish I could buy this


I believe you can get SafeTSorb through Graingers, although it may be a bit more then what some of the people here find it for (still way less then flourite or anything similar).

They've got outlets all over the place, see if there is one near you.


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## Zefrik (Oct 23, 2011)

Just looking at the drill spot and saw this. What does this mean?

DESCRIPTION

This item is manufactured or supplied by a minority, woman or disadvantaged business


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## lochaber (Jan 23, 2012)

There are a lot of organizations that try to give preference to businesses owned by women, minorities, disabled, etc. 

I believe some government organizations may be required to contract a certain % to such businesses, but I'm not sure.

I've also heard (can't remember the source) that with the use of various shell corporations and what not, this distinction has become nearly meaningless in some areas/by some definitions.


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## Zefrik (Oct 23, 2011)

Okay I just bought a 40 lbs bag of the SafeTSorb. I have begun to rinse small amounts using a strainer and laying it out on a big piece of cardboard to dry. Could I use Seachem's Equilibrium (poweder) and mix it with some water in a bucket and then add the cleaned STS to it to "charge" it. I thought since it restores minerals and balances GH it would be good to do. Is this okay to do or should I just mix some aragonite in it?


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## Grundy (Dec 11, 2008)

I bought a bag based upon this thread and was happy with the color, shape, and size of the substrate. I am unhappy at how much time I have spent and water used washing it.

I have washed it numerous times including in a sieve bucket until it was clean. I did two scoops, the water cleared after several minutes of flushing, put it into another bucket, added water to it and it turned brown once again.

Any hints?


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## Tylt33 (Feb 14, 2010)

Grundy said:


> I bought a bag based upon this thread and was happy with the color, shape, and size of the substrate. I am unhappy at how much time I have spent and water used washing it.
> 
> I have washed it numerous times including in a sieve bucket until it was clean. I did two scoops, the water cleared after several minutes of flushing, put it into another bucket, added water to it and it turned brown once again.
> 
> Any hints?


Buy a new bag, cut open one of the top corners, put your garden hose in it. Turn the garden hose on, move the garden hose around, allowing the water to run out. Water should run clear in under ten minutes total. Done.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

The best way to go is, once rinsed a few times, to put it in your tank. The cloudiness will usually go away within a couple hours if you run a sponge filter.

If you add the substrate and then put water in the tank slowly, you likely won't have much cloudiness at all.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

I wonder if different bags have different amounts of dustiness? I used Safe-T-Sorb. 

I did have quite a slurry of muddy water when I set mine up. I was ready for it, and 'rinsed the substrate in the tank'. It only needed 2 changes of water. First one (6" deep) was a muddy mess. Second one (also about 6" deep) was noticeably cleaner, though still muddy. I filled both of these stirring the material as much as I could. Deliberately MAKING a mess. Then draining. 
The third fill was done slowly. I put the Safe-T-Sorb bag in the tank and filled by running the water slowly over it. Sure, it was a bit cloudy, but nothing that I would not have put fish in. It was a lot clearer a few hours later, and really clean the next day. I ran the filters for a few days, then cleaned them. Lots of silt.
I re-scaped, again clouding the water, and did a water change, but the water was not really too bad. However, I had been deliberately messy again (I think I missed out on making mud pies as a child) so I took that opportunity to get rid of some more dust. There was not much left.


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## Grundy (Dec 11, 2008)

Thank you for the suggestions.

This is what I did:

1. Put around 25 pounds in a rubbermaid tub and ran the hose into the substrate, flushed for 10 minutes, moved it and repeated it 3 more times for a 40 minute flush. The water was clear so I moved it into the tank.
2. I filled the tank (38 gallon) and disturbed the substrate, drained 20 gallons and replaced.
3. Repeated for the next week and though I could see through the tank now it still looked like weak tea.
4. Drained the entire tank and removed the substrate.
5. Washed the substrate in a sieve bucket with a mesh bottom with a garden hose on jet, poured the cleaned substrate into a bucket, filled the bucket up and the water was brown once again. I did two handfuls per washing of around 5 minutes each. 

I may try back into the tank once and if not try a different substrate. 

I did not use a sponge filter though because there was too much suspended sediment that it would not have done much good so I may try that.


Thanks again.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

I have had pretty good luck using a sponge filter when stirring it up. You may need to squeeze the sponge out in a bucket a few times but it will really help with the cloudiness. Especially if you're able to move it around to the areas where things are stirred up the most.


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## sowNreap (Jun 10, 2012)

Mine seemed really dusty and after somewhat rinsing just put it into the tank. By accident I ended up rinsing in the tank .. twice. Even after the final fill I ended up moving some stuff around but didn't drain again. Several hours later the water was fairy clear. The next day it was totally clear. 

Since then I've kicked some up moving plants or something but it clears up in a few minutes. Again, never cloudy for as long as yours has been. 

Just wonder if you got a "bad" ... really dusty bag. You bought the green/white bag right?


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## Grundy (Dec 11, 2008)

Yes I bought the green and white bag and it was the only type that TS sold. It was a 40# bag on sale for $4.50.

When I removed the substrate from the tank it went into my sieve bucket and after a few pounds was collected I quit, swirled it in the water and then poured the dirty water into the yard. Once I left it sitting over night and when I poured the 5 gallons of water off there was 1/4 to 1/2 of fines that had settled in the bucket.

I believe that I just have a dirty bag and will rinse it again outside with the garden hose and then use a sponge filter to polish the rest off.

Thanks again.


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## sowNreap (Jun 10, 2012)

I just thought I'd check since my Tractor Supply also sells the red/white bag which isn't the same thing. 

Yep sounds like a "bad" bag. Good luck .. hope you get to clear up. It really does look nice in the aquarium.


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## Grundy (Dec 11, 2008)

I see that I left the word "inch" after 1/4 to 1/2 in my post above. Opps.

Sow: Thank you for the suggestion and I wish it was the issue.

I really do think it is my bag. I rinsed the bucket of substrate with the garden hose for 20+ minutes last night, threw it back into the tank, and have been running coarse filter sponges since last night. 

I can now see through the tank front to back but not side to side yet. 

And the only reason why I keep doing this is I think that it looks nice too.

Thanks again.


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## jhays79 (Mar 28, 2012)

I use this stuff a lot in my shop, as I'm a mechanic, it works great there, but there is no way is use it in a tank.


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## sowNreap (Jun 10, 2012)

Grundy said:


> I see that I left the word "inch" after 1/4 to 1/2 in my post above. Opps.
> 
> Sow: Thank you for the suggestion and I wish it was the issue.
> 
> ...


LOL .. I didn't even notice that but I read it as "inch". 

It seems I remember reading that someone else had a really dusty bag. Someone suggested that the more it got rinsed the smaller the particles became and the more "dust" it would make. Sounded reasonable to me at the time but don't know if that's fact. Just wondering if that could be happening to you. 

Mine did take at least 24 hrs .. maybe closer to 36 hrs to totally clear up. It was nice & clear on the final fill but I couldn't tell I didn't have the plants in the right spot until the tank was full and then my driftwood decided it wanted to float even though I tested it before I drained the tank. So made a huge mess moving stuff around. I couldn't even see in the tank much less through it. I barely could see my fish and one is 6". LOL It _seemed _to be taking a long time to totally clear. I remember wondering if I'd made a mistake using it. But the next day when I looked it was a whole lot better and by that evening was totally clear. But I was running 2 #3 hydro sponges so that might have helped. 

Give it a day or 2 to settle .. hopefully it does & will clear up. 



jhays79 said:


> I use this stuff a lot in my shop, as I'm a mechanic, it works great there, but there is no way is use it in a tank.


Works great in a tank. It's been discussed that it's basically the same stuff as some expensive aquarium substrate (can't remember the name of) that has just been re-badged and price jacked up.


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## Grundy (Dec 11, 2008)

Good news: it has finally cleared up and I can see into the tank for a change. I threw my driftwood into the tank to start that process (though I have been soaking this entire time outside the tank) and was moving some of the substrate around. It made a small cloud but settled quickly. From your statement above I too started wondering if the more I did with it the more it would break down so that could make sense.

This will be a low light tank for my 6 yo son in his room and plan on doing just moss attached to the driftwood and maybe something in the substrate. I have one piece of driftwood that I plan on suspending in the water column so that it looks like a root wad suspended from the bank and to allow the fish to swim under and through the “roots”. 


The important thing is he is as excited as I am.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Grundy said:


> This will be a low light tank for my 6 yo son in his room.
> Plan on doing just moss attached to the driftwood and maybe something in the substrate.


Try anubias. They can grow without substrate in a sunny window. If you can't find any in Pet Stores try Ebay when it gets warmer. 

I got some ferns Malaysia and Taiwan, which had no shipment cost, and they arrived in great condition. Fern from aquatic magic was the size of 2 ferns


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Importing plants from outside the United States is illegal without proper phytosanitary certification. 

Buy your plants from U.S. sources. Start with the For Sale section here on this forum. Then branch out from there.


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## sowNreap (Jun 10, 2012)

Grundy said:


> Good news: it has finally cleared up and I can see into the tank for a change. I threw my driftwood into the tank to start that process (though I have been soaking this entire time outside the tank) and was moving some of the substrate around. It made a small cloud but settled quickly. From your statement above I too started wondering if the more I did with it the more it would break down so that could make sense.
> 
> This will be a low light tank for my 6 yo son in his room and plan on doing just moss attached to the driftwood and maybe something in the substrate. I have one piece of driftwood that I plan on suspending in the water column so that it looks like a root wad suspended from the bank and to allow the fish to swim under and through the “roots”.
> 
> ...


That's so great to hear it cleared up! Wish I would have remembered that earlier (about messing around with it too much it) .. might have some you some time & aggravation. 

It seems once it gets more settled you can disturb it more and not cloud the water. It will create a little dust cloud where you are disturbing it but it doesn't seem to cloud the whole tank anymore. I still mess around in my tank way to much. 

As for buying plants like the Anubias mentioned check the For Sale/trade forum. I also like to buy from http://www.plantedaquariumscentral.com . Even now you might still be able to get some delivered .. just try to time it with the warmer weather. He insulates the plants really good & guarantees live delivery with some caveats and special rules .. read the Store Info page for the particulars). Or email him. He's in AZ and you being in TN the package should stay on the southern route and you might not have a problem. Just noticed you're not too far from me. I'm up in the Tri-Cities area. My last order shipped 11/14 and was delivered 11/16 so should be similar for you .. EXCEPT for this week which is the busiest week of the year for shipping. Wait until after Christmas.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

somewhatshocked said:


> Importing plants from outside the United States is illegal without proper phytosanitary certification.


So you are saying it is illegal to buy plants on Ebay that are imported? 

If I just need a small amount of plants it is more economical for me to buy on Ebay.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hilde said:


> So you are saying it is illegal to buy plants on Ebay that are imported?
> 
> If I just need a small amount of plants it is more economical for me to buy on Ebay.


Hi Hilde,

Yes, somewhatshocked is correct.



> Importing plants from outside the United States is illegal without proper phytosanitary certification.


When you order plants from outside the country you become an 'importer' and are responsible for the shipment (not the seller). The vendor you mentioned does not provide phytosanitary certificates and tries to get around government regulations by labeling the shipment 'glassware' or anything but live plants. If it is caught by U.S. Customs and/or the USDA you will be contacted. My favorite story what when the feds showed up at a hobbyist's place of work because that is where the shipment was delivered.

If you do a search on this forum under phytosanitary certificate you will find multiple threads dealing with this issue.

If you want more information on the subject start a new thread, this thread deals with Oil-Dri.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Yes, it's illegal. 

Saving a couple bucks to break a multitude of laws is hardly economical. Encouraging such behavior is not acceptable.

People can and do face criminal charges all the time for improperly importing and handling plants.

You should visit a port of entry where mail is handled sometime. There are huge operations where fruits, vegetables, plants are dissected and catalogued. Any time plant matter is detected without proper documentation, red flags get sent up in multiple government systems. Repeat offenders receive special attention... to say the least.

If you think it's easy not to get caught? You're mistaken.



Hilde said:


> So you are saying it is illegal to buy plants on Ebay that are imported?
> 
> If I just need a small amount of plants it is more economical for me to buy on Ebay.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

somewhatshocked said:


> Yes, it's illegal. Encouraging such behavior is not acceptable.


Oh!! Well didn't mean to get off the topic. 

I had no idea it was illegal. I thought sales on Ebay were regulated by moderators.


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## TylerD (Nov 29, 2012)

*STS Giving a False KH Reading?*



Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Diana,
> 
> I realize that baking soda will raise the dKH, and I use an online calculator to determine the amount of baking soda to add to accomplish the desired change.
> 
> How were you able to determine the dGH (General / German) change that would occur by adding the two tablespoons of baking soda?


I recently set up a planted tank with STS. This stuff is awesome and I want to thank everyone for the valuable information here.

Here's my issue: After 1 week with the STS tank set up, I decided to test the KH while testing the cycle progress (adding food, planted, fishless with seed media). The tap water I use measures 1dKH. I was expecting my tank to measure the equivalent or less considering that the STS might have absorbed the KH and I have not added any KH buffers. On the contrary, I could not, no matter how many drops added to the vile, get the test liquid to change from yellow to blue... At this, I performed a 50% water change and then ran the KH test again. This time it changed blue on the first drop, as did the tap water.

Out of curiosity, I took some fresh STS out of the bag and put it in a small container, added water, rinsed it, and added water and let it settle, so the water was clear. After approximately 5 minutes, I tested to KH. Again, I could not get the liquid to turn from yellow to blue. Side by side I tested the tap water without STS and it still measured 1dKH. Surely, the STS can't be increasing the dKH to 30++ (I gave up adding drops) immediately after adding it to the water! It's supposed to be inert right? If anything it should decrease the KH... I thought...

Lastly, I had some API 5 in 1 test strips handy and tried that. With this the KH square tested the same from both the tap water and the water with the STS in it. ~20-30ppm (as inaccurate as the strips are they were, at least, matching). This result lead me to believe that KH in the STS water is not affected, rather the liquid test was somehow affected. 

My STS tank is at school, so I have to wait until Monday to test the KH again since that 50% water change today. I am really curious to see if the KH will still read 1dKH as it did immediately following the water change, or if the test will continue to be flawed somehow after 2 days time.

I thought I'd put this out there to see if anyone else has experienced the phenomenon with STS and the API liquid KH test.

Any ideas? Thanks for your time


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi TylerD,

Very, very unusual.....have you by any chance added any stones or other items into the tank?


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## TylerD (Nov 29, 2012)

*I Caught My Error in Reading the KH Test...*



TylerD said:


> I recently set up a planted tank with STS. This stuff is awesome and I want to thank everyone for the valuable information here.
> 
> Here's my issue: After 1 week with the STS tank set up, I decided to test the KH while testing the cycle progress (adding food, planted, fishless with seed media). The tap water I use measures 1dKH. I was expecting my tank to measure the equivalent or less considering that the STS might have absorbed the KH and I have not added any KH buffers. On the contrary, I could not, no matter how many drops added to the vile, get the test liquid to change from yellow to blue... At this, I performed a 50% water change and then ran the KH test again. This time it changed blue on the first drop, as did the tap water.
> 
> ...


Clearly, I mistook to the instructions on the API test kit. I was accidentally expecting the water to turn from yellow to blue... Oops. Now it all makes sense. The KH in the STS water is zero, hence why I am never seeing any blue. The STS is extracting the KH as would be expected...

Great stuff, BTW. Very easy to work with, looks great, and economical...


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

My original experience with a substrate that removes carbonates was in 29 gallon tanks with a Fluval 204 canister, and not much substrate or decor. I was calling the volume 30 gallons. I also had SMS in several other tanks from 10 gallons to 45 gallons. Varying amounts of non-water stuff taking up the room in the tank. 
At the same time I was running a Lake Tanganyikan tank of about 60 gallons (Sump + tank, but there was a lot of rock in this one. Actual volume was closer to 50 gallons). I needed to prepare the water for water changes by raising the GH and KH of the tap water. I would mix a garbage can full and use it for several tanks with hard water fish. 

Soil Master Select as the substrate in the 29 gallon tanks would remove the carbonates, per API liquid test and dip stick test (Probably Jungle, but there are several companies that make them). As near as I could tell the KH was 0 degrees (0 ppm on the dip stick test)

When I added 2 teaspoons of Arm and Hammer Baking Soda to the 29 gallon tanks these tests would both show 2 dKH. I realize the dip stick does not have a "35 ppm" color, so this is interpolating between the colors. It was really close to the 40 ppm shade of green. 

I run SMS in many tanks of different sizes, and multiply or divide the dose to get the results I want depending on the size of the tank. 
I got the same results when I was preparing the water for the Lake Tang. tank. 30 gallons of new water, starting with tap water KH 4 degrees. Add 2 tablespoon and the KH would rise to 16 degrees.

Then I set up an 88 gallon tank with Safe T Sorb. I found it also dropped the KH to what I called 0 degrees. 
I added varying amounts of baking soda and tested the results. I found the math holds true:

1 teaspoon of baking soda added to 30 gallons of water raises the KH by 2 German degrees of hardness. 
I also altered the test by mixing 50/50 distilled and tank water then multiplying the results by 2. I was measuring the water to fill the test tube using a syringe with markings to .5ml. 

You can multiply or divide this recipe to suit any size tank, any desired change in KH. 
However, if I was going to attempt a much larger change I would probably work it part way, then test again. I was not measuring the baking soda by weight, which is the more accurate way to do this sort of thing. I know when I got a bit careless mixing water for the hard water tanks the KH did not exactly match the tank.


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## TylerD (Nov 29, 2012)

*STS API KH Test False Alarm... Sheesh...*

Thanks for your time, Roy and Diana.

Finally, I realized that I mistook to the instructions on the API test kit. I was accidentally expecting the water to turn from yellow to blue, instead of blue to yellow... Oops. This is pretty ridiculous especially considering I have run this test quite a few times... User error. Maybe it's having two kids under 2 that is sapping my intellect. Anyway, Now it all makes sense. The KH in the STS water is zero, hence why I am never seeing any blue in the test liquid. The STS is extracting the KH as would be expected...

Now I added a small bag of crushed coral to the filter in the STS tank. I am thinking that this carbonate buffer will "feed" the STS until it eventually stops pulling it out of the water...

Great stuff, BTW, STS. I followed your advice and went through W.W. Granger to get a bag locally in Portland. Thanks for the tip! Very easy to work with, looks great, cleared up fast, and so economical... 

Here is a pic of the STS tank:


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## Jnad (Aug 17, 2012)

Is the use of cat litter give the same results when it comes to KH/GH dropping?

Jnad


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## TylerD (Nov 29, 2012)

Jnad said:


> Is the use of cat litter give the same results when it comes to KH/GH dropping?
> 
> Jnad


 
According to my research, any of the high CEC clay-based substrates, i.e. kitty litter, Safe T Sorb, Turface, or otherwise chemical absorbing materials will initially lower the KH/GH by leeching it out of the water. Eventually, the material reaches an equilibrium wherein it stops absorbing KH/GH and matches the KH/GH of the water column… 

Of course, the pay off of this initial KH withdrawal side effect, is the long term CEC benefit of the material storing nutrients for the plants to use over time. 

I am currently buffering my new Safe T Sorb tank with crushed coral and will be testing to see how long it takes for the STS to stop absorbing the KH. I am considering adding baking soda to expedite this process as well.


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## latchdan (Sep 7, 2007)

Does this stuff work good with ground cover plants such as HC/Glosso? How heavy is it? Similar to flourite?

Also to charge the substrate could I pour some osmocote plus on the bottom of the tank and then cover with STS? Or does it have to be put into 00 size capsules?


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## Mizuhuman (Mar 16, 2013)

hello I bought Safe T Sorb from the website that Trickerie provided on the first page. How long does it take to clear up? Should I turn on the filter to speed up the process? or should I leave it alone and let it settle and keep changing the water?


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Mizuhuman,

Definitely use a filter to speed up the clearing process. Here is a 20 gallon I set up the first of the month.

Rinsed 5X per gallon of substrate in bucket; After filling









After 24 hours using Marineland C-220 with polishing pad


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## Mizuhuman (Mar 16, 2013)

Alright I know what to do now, thanks seattle aquarist and where can i buy polishing pads?


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Mizuhuman,

What type(s) of filter(s) are you using on your tank?


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## Mizuhuman (Mar 16, 2013)

I am using the Marineland Emperor bio-wheel power filter. It is the only one i have for the 29gallon


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