# Nitrate spike and sudden hair algae in my tank.



## dcutl002 (Apr 8, 2014)

I would do partial water changes on a regular basis. I change 50% every week. It keeps Nitrates down and helps keep algae under control.


----------



## Bloomer (Mar 22, 2014)

What's different now, beside the obvious? 
Filter clogged (although that usually drops nitrates)? 
Ferts? Lights old (algae can increase from old fluoresecent tubes)? 
Seasons are changing, sun hitting the tank now? 
Look for a dead fish, that can make a tank very rich. 
When did you test last? 
When was your cleaning routine last performed?

You can use amquel or aqua safe PLUS to detox the three big toxins until things are figured out, but still do big pwc's, washing them out is the only good way long term.


----------



## Colin Wrexham (Mar 24, 2017)

I got a free bunch of java moss from pets at home. When i called in the other day all their tanks are full of hair algae too. But i think my lighting has been on too long so cutting down on times. Oh found 2 dead fish hidden during clean 

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk




















Here is my tank. Took all the moss out now

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk


----------



## Redneck tenner (Aug 21, 2016)

I see bba and clado. Clado is usually introduced and is common issue in moss. Correct photo period. Manually remove what you can. Lots of wc, increase co2 if you have it and h2o2 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


----------



## Bloomer (Mar 22, 2014)

The dead fish are almost certainly the cause, be sure there aren't more and do some more pwc's. Be ready for a bunch of dead bacteria and the cloud they make because the biofilter will bloom to accommodate the rich water, then collapse after ammonia is gone. It expands and collapses whenever a bolus of nutrients occurs, the cloud can be poured down the drain for the most part with a pwc.

What I found most effective for algae reduction is to run tanks in shifts, 4-5 hours on at dawn, then 4-5 hours off, then 4-5 hours on. That can be looked at in a way, as midday clouds. It helps because CO2 levels are highest after a dark period and gradually decline to almost nothing after say 5-6 hours, so you get another CO2 burst later in the day that won't occur with continuous lighting. Nine hours a day total works fine in all my tanks. The kind of light matters a little, but isn't critical. 

The type of algae is fun to know, but generally, mat algae and filamentous are what you get and both exist because they're being fed, secondarily because of light. That's a nice looking tank, the fuzzy stuff is what I know as hair algae, usually you see it at the base of plants; it looks like steel wool. You don't have a huge number of plants, so it may be a challenge to outrun algae by having the plants consume nutrients first. What you can do, is use root tabs, maybe 1/4 the recommended amount, push to the bottom, and keep the water column lean. That will tend to make the plants pull nutrients from the substrate, grow good roots and also pull nutrients from the water, cutting down algae. Don't use liquid ferts, too.

Walstad's book has a lot of good algae info in addition to all the other great observations she made, start with Ch XI, then go backward.


----------



## Colin Wrexham (Mar 24, 2017)

Thanks guys, much appreciated

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

Hi guys, a bit confused with my water test results. Not sure if i am getting false readings. I am using king british test strips. Here are my new results today...
Ph= 6.4
Kh= 180/270
Gh= 0
Nitrate= 0/ 10
Nitrite= 5
Amonia= off the scale

I did a 75% water change yesterday where the nitrate was sky high. I have found a few dead fish which i took out yesterday (neons). I have removed some melted plant material and put more plants in today to help absorb nutrients. I have cut my vallis back due to the black hair algae forming on it. Added some bunches of cabomba carolina, cryptocoryne willisii and alternanthera reinecki pink. Various other crypts, sagitaria tentalus, java fern and vallis giganti already in. 

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

Todays photos

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

View attachment 736682
View attachment 736690
View attachment 736698
View attachment 736706
View attachment 736714
View attachment 736722
View attachment 736730
View attachment 736738


Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

What i have been told and found to be true is that black mollys love hair algae. They are chomping away at it all the time. You can see the black hair algae on the java fern. Wish i was a chemist to understand all this water testing a bit better lol. Got a bit more dead plant matter to get out tomorrow. Still fighting the good fight and it wont beat me.....fingers crossed. Any tips on the water test results?

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk


----------



## Colin Wrexham (Mar 24, 2017)

Hi guys, i found out what has caused my algae bloom and hair growth....(sadly not the hair on my head) lol. 
Bought a new test kit and all the readings were good except my phosphate levels, they are off the scale. Seems to be caused by a number of things...
Over feading flake food.
New filter still bedding in.
Lights on too long.
Dead plant matter i didnt see.

Solution i am told it to pull as much black hair algae out by hand as i can by hand, cut my lighting times, cut right down on flake food and do 50% water changes weekly and have more algae eating fish in there. Not keen on too many chemicals in there to clear it.

Sounds like a plan to me so will keep you posted!!! 😃

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk


----------



## Doc7 (Apr 7, 2011)

Dead fish is a serious and unusual problem and like other posters already indicated, the most likely cause of your water quality issues.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Yea dead fish will push you over from "healthy" water..
ammonia at that pH can be handled IF not "off scale".. 
nitrites are a killer though.
suggest getting some Seachem Prime and treating (don't overdose) till you work (clean out) the problems..
Dead fish will generally cause more dead fish, vicious cycle..

you need to stabilize the water b4 worrying about the algae.. At this point they are a bit more friend than foe..

since you really need rapid growth to clear out excess the Am/Nit (possibly faster than increses in nit. bacteria) it may not be wise to cut the light (too much)..
But your call..and others may advise differently..

After re-reading are you saying ammonia/nit is fine?


----------



## Colin Wrexham (Mar 24, 2017)

Yes these are my correct reading after i got rid of the dodgy test strips lol
Ph 7.4
Amonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5.0
Phosphate was off the colour chart and was really dark. 

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk


----------



## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Colin Wrexham said:


> Yes these are my correct reading after i got rid of the dodgy test strips lol
> Ph 7.4
> Amonia 0
> Nitrite 0
> ...


Have you tested your tap water for phosphates? If high amounts are coming from your tap water you may want to look into using a phosphate remover such as phosban.

Dan


----------



## Colin Wrexham (Mar 24, 2017)

Not yet but will do. Only got my new test kit this afternoon. When i get a minute today i will post a video to give you a better view and idea. Now for the big question, should i do a posh video with music or just the video? May be low budget without fancy graphics and text and the kids may burst in and get dragged out by the wifey. Only joking...will try and put a vid up soon though. Looking for harp music now hehe

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk


----------



## Redneck tenner (Aug 21, 2016)

Why are you worried about phosphates? How high? You have shrimp in there?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


----------



## Colin Wrexham (Mar 24, 2017)

Yes red but its more the black hair algae i am trying to control. Its taking over. Plants and rocks are covered. Got loads out but want it gone. Had fish dying too buddy.

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk


----------



## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

******* tenner said:


> Why are you worried about phosphates? How high? You have shrimp in there?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


Because ideally you want about 10x the nitrates as you have phosphates not only to reduce algae concerns but for increased plant growth. So ideally you want to keep phosphates low between 1-2ppm and nitrates 10-20ppm. I will admit I'm am relatively newer to ferts but this is my understanding. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Dan


----------



## Redneck tenner (Aug 21, 2016)

Ya.. I don't agree. There is little coelation between phosphates and algae. OP clado was introduced. Ammonia was the catalyst. Do you have any supporting data for this info? Id like to read it. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


----------



## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

******* tenner said:


> Ya.. I don't agree. There is little coelation between phosphates and algae. OP clado was introduced. Ammonia was the catalyst. Do you have any supporting data for this info? Id like to read it.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


Redfield ratio... after doing some digging after you questioned it, it appears this info is kind of outdated. As I stated I'm newer to the fert side of things and it was my understanding but with that said I'm glad you raised that concern and as with most threads I will take away information. This information has left me with the question, is there a point at which nitrate and phosphate become so far out of balance it has a negative effect I see Tomm Barr keeps tanks anywhere from 3-5:1 ratio ? and phosphate off the charts has no negative effect? Can you clarify for me?

Dan


----------



## Colin Wrexham (Mar 24, 2017)

Hi Red, the phosphates reading was 10.0+

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk


----------



## Redneck tenner (Aug 21, 2016)

It is my belief that phosphates as an algae trigger has been debunked. Ammonia is rarely discussed but much info can be found on the topic. Many people such as myself grow plants well in tanks off wells drilled into and through limerock. Running 30ppm co2 24/7 with 50 plus percent plant mass I can drive my ph down to 7.4. But calcium and high P in tap give me high gh/kh. Majority of plants do certainly appreciate this macro. 

Like fish just need to understand which plants thrive in liquid rock. Overall no....not too worried about phosphates. 


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


----------



## Colin Wrexham (Mar 24, 2017)

Thanks buddy. I will keep chipping away at it. Will do some bigger water changes and get what algae i can out by hand. Added some more small SE's today to try and help get it under control

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk


----------



## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

******* tenner said:


> It is my belief that phosphates as an algae trigger has been debunked. Ammonia is rarely discussed but much info can be found on the topic. Many people such as myself grow plants well in tanks off wells drilled into and through limerock. Running 30ppm co2 24/7 with 50 plus percent plant mass I can drive my ph down to 7.4. But calcium and high P in tap give me high gh/kh. Majority of plants do certainly appreciate this macro.
> 
> Like fish just need to understand which plants thrive in liquid rock. Overall no....not too worried about phosphates.
> 
> ...


I would rather say not proven as debunked would conclude there is no possible way it has an effect on algae.

As I'm trying to grasp all of the complexities of ferts and chemical reactions I understand the real problem usually lies with deficiencies from my limited research that is, I hear what your saying about plants appreciate these macro's but do you know at which point phosphates either by themselves or ratio in relation to other nutrients become cause for concern or have a negative impact. It may be my naive way of thinking but at some point I would assume there are negative effects and just wondering when that would occur or if you happen to know.

Dan


----------



## Redneck tenner (Aug 21, 2016)

I think the ratio you mentioned is a good way of looking at it. Problem is you would have to look at individual plant cultivars to really get concrete answers.

Some interesting topics you may enjoy researching as I do. Mobile vs immobile nutrients and micro toxicity. 



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


----------



## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

******* tenner said:


> I think the ratio you mentioned is a good way of looking at it. Problem is you would have to look at individual plant cultivars to really get concrete answers.
> 
> Some interesting topics you may enjoy researching as I do. Mobile vs immobile nutrients and micro toxicity.
> 
> ...


Will definitely check those out.

Dan


----------



## Colin Wrexham (Mar 24, 2017)

Here is the video guys and i even put some harp music in there too because i know you all like it lol

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk


----------



## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Colin Wrexham said:


> Here is the video guys and i even put some harp music in there too because i know you all like it lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk


Hmmm I don't see a link. Is it my browser or is the link indeed not there?

Dan


----------



## Colin Wrexham (Mar 24, 2017)

https://youtu.be/dMK-m6ySx78

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk


----------



## Colin Wrexham (Mar 24, 2017)

Try now

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk


----------



## Redneck tenner (Aug 21, 2016)

Have you tried considered loweing diffuser to hold as much gas in as possible. Alot of the algae could be hit easily with h2o2 imo. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


----------



## Colin Wrexham (Mar 24, 2017)

My surface skimmer is 2 piece. So one half points downwards to help circulate the co2 more. The other section points upwards to give oxygen on the top

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk


----------



## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Yup works. 2 things kinda jump out at me that could be contributing. Like ******* has stated before Co2, I would lower the diffuser as close to the substrate as possible to help be more efficient and then we have to figure out the amount of Co2 actually being dissolved. You can do this by measuring your KH/PH and referencing this chart CO2/pH/KH table - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report. You want about 1.0 drop in PH.

Added: This should be done a few hours after Co2 has been running

The second is it didn't appear in the video to have much flow.

Dan


----------



## Colin Wrexham (Mar 24, 2017)

Its about 5 inches from subtrate, 2 bubbles per sec in my bubble counter. I am slowly increasing it day by day

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk


----------



## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Colin Wrexham said:


> Its about 5 inches from subtrate, 2 bubbles per sec in my bubble counter. I am slowly increasing it day by day
> 
> Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk


Bubbles per second won't tell you how much Co2 you have so its not a good measurement. The other option is a drop checker but if you have a test kit with KH/PH tests its probably the easiest for you.

Dan


----------



## Colin Wrexham (Mar 24, 2017)

Drop checker is green on the opposite side of the tank

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk


----------



## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

When you say settled for ages how long exactly? Hard to tell what kind of substrate? Are all plants root feeders? Wonder if there is lack of nutrients for the plants? Maybe substrate has run out of nutrients and still pumping co2 is really feeding the algae since plants cannot feed? If substrate is drained of nutrients maybe try root tabs. Just throwing some other stuff out there. Are you dosing any ferts? Have your plants had good growth lately or noticed if they slowed down?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Colin Wrexham said:


> Drop checker is green on the opposite side of the tank
> 
> Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk


And i'm assuming 4dkh solution? or the solution it may have come with?

Dan


----------



## Colin Wrexham (Mar 24, 2017)

I did a setup about 7months ago, set all the subtrate up then. Didnt like the rock layout so redid the rocks about 4 months ago. Subtrate is aquatic compost mixed with tropica. Its topped with 1 & half inch zambezi gravel. I have sera root tabs in. Most plants are stem plants except java fern. I have been using green high ferts. Some plants have slowed down, others gone wild, mainly vallis. JBL solution ready mixed from green machine in my drop checker.

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk


----------



## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Wonder what your nutrient levels are. So you do weekly water changes? Maybe nutrient buildup. When did you place the root tabs?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Colin Wrexham (Mar 24, 2017)

I put 3 in a few days ago when i added some more hair grass. The others about 7 months ago when i did the subtrate

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk


----------



## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

What about water changes? Before the big one you did how long before that one? If you are doing EI dosing you could have a lot of nutrient build up for sure. Not sure about the Sera root tabs but many root tabs can cause an ammonia spike. How many root tabs did you add? How deep did u bury them? 

I see you said u added three. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

When I added root tabs last week caused an ammonia spike but went down pretty quickly. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Colin Wrexham said:


> I did a setup about 7months ago, set all the subtrate up then. Didnt like the rock layout so redid the rocks about 4 months ago. Subtrate is aquatic compost mixed with tropica. Its topped with 1 & half inch zambezi gravel. I have sera root tabs in. Most plants are stem plants except java fern. I have been using green high ferts. Some plants have slowed down, others gone wild, mainly vallis. JBL solution ready mixed from green machine in my drop checker.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk


I think its 4DKH then.

Dan


----------



## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

I'm really thinking not enough nutrients in substrate for root feeders. Root tabs are usually good for about 3 months give or take. Not sure about your substrate how long that is good for though as far as nutrients. And how often do you do water changes and how large? Because if dosing regularly EI then could have a large build up of nutrients in water column. Perfect for algae. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Colin Wrexham (Mar 24, 2017)

Well a bit of good news guys. I have cut my lighting times down and the algae has started dying off. Added the new SAE's and they are eating it well along side the black mollys. The black hair algae hasnt gone but hasnt spead either. I'm thinking that with a few more big water changes over the next few weeks i will have it beat.

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk


----------



## Colin Wrexham (Mar 24, 2017)

Ok this stuff is really p'ing me off now. Checked out loads of algae ID charts and i am pretty sure this is stagwort algae now. I am tempted to drop the water right down and taking a flame thrower to it lol. Tried a hammer and chisel which didnt work. 
Off work tomorrow so going to get cracking on it. I love how people say use a tooth brush on it. Trust me....that acts like a comb so ignore that advice with this stuff. (I was tempted to get a stylist in to give it a trim before someone says it) haha.

Serious note- i have been told flourish excel and easy carb kills it off really well too. It can be caused by bad circulation of co2 and filter issues too. 
Will keep you posted!

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk


----------



## Bloomer (Mar 22, 2014)

Colin Wrexham said:


> I'm thinking that with a few more big water changes over the next few weeks i will have it beat.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk


You're on the right track, I do believe. Algae is in the tank because it's being fed and pwc's remove nutrients Light reduction, especially running short shifts helps a lot, but a rich water column will grow algae in the dark. Keeping food away from algae is key, whether it's from lots of big pwc's, plants using all the nutrients or whatever, starve algae, it goes bye bye. 

Excel knocks it down a lot but it comes back with a vengeance if you stop. Excel melts some plants, like val and hornwort, too. Peroxide does well on filamentous and beard algae with multiple treatments. Algae eating fish fall into the eradication category, too. Downside is fish need food and food feeds everything. 

Chasing CO2 and pH are futile, you may get it "right" for a short time but tank biology has (or tries to have) large effects on both parameters during the day and from day to day. Just don't let either swing much and focus on nutrients instead. 

Your tap water may be nutrient rich; mine is so hard, it's essentially fertilizer and I went to RO long ago. 

The right balance for what we are trying to do with a tank is the aquarist's challenge. It can be a prodigious one!


----------



## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Bloomer said:


> You're on the right track, I do believe. Algae is in the tank because it's being fed and pwc's remove nutrients Light reduction, especially running short shifts helps a lot, but a rich water column will grow algae in the dark. Keeping food away from algae is key, whether it's from lots of big pwc's, plants using all the nutrients or whatever, starve algae, it goes bye bye.
> 
> Excel knocks it down a lot but it comes back with a vengeance if you stop. Excel melts some plants, like val and hornwort, too. Peroxide does well on filamentous and beard algae with multiple treatments. Algae eating fish fall into the eradication category, too. Downside is fish need food and food feeds everything.
> 
> ...




Totally agree with everyone you said. Co2 swings can be big influence. Much easier to get a 10x co2 swing in 30 mins or less than ferts or light which can be problematic and cause algae to gain upper hand. All about balance and plants only as good as weakest link and weak link means algae. If dosing EI which I suggest that rules out fertilization deficiency which leads to co2 and or lights to check. Too much light and not enough co2 algae gains upper hand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------

