# BBA and GSA refuses to go away, and plants don't grow



## Aquadawg (Aug 18, 2012)

1. Go to two lights
2. Keep CO2 where you have it
3. Increase micro ferts by about 10%... Increase again after a few days if necessary.
4. Don't stress. The problem should clear up.
5. Worst case scenario. Remove infested plants and wood. 10% bleach dip for 3-4 mins and rinse with water and double dose of dechlor and return to tank.


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## MJB13 (Jun 30, 2015)

How long has this tank been set-up?


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## voyetra8 (Sep 24, 2010)

v3mo said:


> I really don't think it's a CO2 problem because before I increased it, it was coming out as 30ppm CO2.


How did you determine your CO2 level? High KH and other issues can make you think your CO2 is much MUCH higher than it actually is.... 

Honestly, all of this sounds like a CO2 deficiency to me. I'd suggest gradually crank the CO2 up until your livestock begin to show initial signs of discomfort, then back it off.

For instance, according to this chart, my tank has 170ppm CO2. Since I'm sitting here watching my very much alive fish... it's not quite as simple as looking at KH and pH: 

http://s171.photobucket.com/user/plantbrain/media/Aquatic plants/CO2_Graph_zps9c124ef0.gif.html


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## v3mo (May 12, 2014)

Aquadawg said:


> 1. Go to two lights
> 2. Keep CO2 where you have it
> 3. Increase micro ferts by about 10%... Increase again after a few days if necessary.
> 4. Don't stress. The problem should clear up.
> 5. Worst case scenario. Remove infested plants and wood. 10% bleach dip for 3-4 mins and rinse with water and double dose of dechlor and return to tank.


It's mainly just the wood right now. And removing another light would mean certain parts of the tank will go without light. The clamp lights are small so removing another one I'm afraid would make a few of the plants die off due to them being in the dark. :/ But upping the Plantex dosing and leaving the other ferts should be fine?



MJB13 said:


> How long has this tank been set-up?


It's been a little over 2 months so far.



voyetra8 said:


> How did you determine your CO2 level? High KH and other issues can make you think your CO2 is much MUCH higher than it actually is....
> 
> Honestly, all of this sounds like a CO2 deficiency to me. I'd suggest gradually crank the CO2 up until your livestock begin to show initial signs of discomfort, then back it off.
> 
> ...


I tested my CO2 both with a drop checker and a KH/PH test. I did indeed follow the tables you find online, and all led me to believe I had enough. I don't exactly follow the "bubbles per second" but just for an idea, it's probably at 5-8 bubbles a sec. It's hard to count, but the stream of bubbles is a ton faster than what I started off with. I guess I can up the CO2 further just about until I see the fish get stressed then. I'll have my mom do that tomorrow since she works from home then and can monitor them. I feel like I have more CO2 than I need but I think those charts may be unreliable lol.



Okay, so I will upp the Plantex and CO2 more. I don't think removing the 3rd light will help though because again, it will leave a few of my corner plants in the dark and I think more would die that way.  Is there anything else I should do?


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## voyetra8 (Sep 24, 2010)

v3mo said:


> I tested my CO2 both with a drop checker and a KH/PH test. I did indeed follow the tables you find online, and all led me to believe I had enough.


I feel your pain. There is a reason why folks with a ton of knowledge and experience like Tom Barr don't use drop checkers, and instead find their CO2 sweet spot by making slow adjustments and watching their livestock and plants. 

I live in LA, and my KH and GH is off the API test charts and the pH (out of the tap) is over 8... This means it's been nearly impossible (for me anyway) to accurately determine CO2 levels using a drop checker or charts. 

It's immensely frustrating. 




> I don't exactly follow the "bubbles per second" but just for an idea, it's probably at 5-8 bubbles a sec.


Bubbles per second are irrelevant when comparing to anyone else, since your system is running at its own pressure. 1bps at 30psi contains vastly more CO2 than 1bps at 5psi. 

How are you diffusing? I use an inline reactor, which is low pressure.



> I'll have my mom do that tomorrow since she works from home then and can monitor them.


I'd advise you do to yourself if you can. No slight intended against your mom. Hah. 


[quote[I don't think removing the 3rd light will help though because again, it will leave a few of my corner plants in the dark and I think more would die that way.  Is there anything else I should do?[/quote] 

If the tank is a disaster, I'd advise using the "1-2 punch" with peroxide and excel (google it), and cutting your light by half, and gently working your way up to find the sweet spot for your system....


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## Planted_Edge (Apr 29, 2015)

Agree completely with the above...CO2 is most likely the problem.but not the only...
Let me tell you something I learned very quickly: 
my drop checker was always yellow. And I had bba thrive...all sorts of problems. 
Now my drop checker is out of the tank and I'm adjusting based on what fish tell me...I've increased it way more than what I had before and the plants are doing excellent. 
But if you increase CO2, be sure you bring in O2 as well through surface agitation...I found I could pump in a lot more CO2 this way without stressing the fish too much... Fish adjust to high co2 levels as long as you oxygenate at night...I've seen it myself...had a group of green tetras that just slowed down during the day but no heavy breathing or going up to the surface...then I added another group of them and sure enough they were breathing like they ran a marathon... So slowly adjust the CO2 but with that, increase oxygenation too...my plants pearl like crazy...


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## evil nick (Oct 20, 2014)

Planted_Edge said:


> But if you increase CO2, be sure you bring in O2 as well through surface agitation...I found I could pump in a lot more CO2 this way without stressing the fish too much... Fish adjust to high co2 levels as long as you oxygenate at night...I've seen it myself...had a group of green tetras that just slowed down during the day but no heavy breathing or going up to the surface...then I added another group of them and sure enough they were breathing like they ran a marathon... So slowly adjust the CO2 but with that, increase oxygenation too...my plants pearl like crazy...


I thought while co2 was going you wanted to avoid agitation?
I have been leaving my air stones off because I was told elsewhere agitation would cause gas exhange and you would lose more co2 than gain.

Hopefully I have been wrong and my airstones can go back on. Just DIY right now but have a can Im waiting to fill, just to busy/lazy


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## Planted_Edge (Apr 29, 2015)

O2 is just as important ...plants produce it too...you lose some Co2 but you don't stress the fish as much if you increase CO2 to levels that match your light , to avoid algae. There's a balance you gotta find between CO2, light and fertilizers... 
If you're missing ferts in the water, PO4 specifically, plants won't be able to absorb co2 ...

Do lots of observing and adjusting.

EDIT: with DIY Co2 you will lose most if not all of the co2 through agitation. That's why you need a pressurized system.


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## evil nick (Oct 20, 2014)

so you can run airstones and co2 together?
It was kind of annoying since I enjoyed looking at the airstone but had to shut them off during the day. I read the plants would produce the oxygen from the co2 they absorb (light on time that is) 
Do you run airstones and your co2 together successfully?

I ad comprehensive which has phosphate (which I believe is the p04) I toggle between small daily doses and every other day. Wont lie do have some BBA but its not an epidemic except on the driftwood every few month when I have to remove and clean it.


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## Planted_Edge (Apr 29, 2015)

BBA was growing in my tank when I had low CO2 and low flow. Increased those and it disappeared. Others report different things, but this was my experience.. I don't run air stones, I have a powerhead and the lily pipe outflow that create a nice surface ripple without breaking the water surface.


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## evil nick (Oct 20, 2014)

Planted_Edge said:


> I have a powerhead and the lily pipe outflow that create a nice surface ripple without breaking the water surface.


ah got it, good info, thanks


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## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

evil nick said:


> I thought while co2 was going you wanted to avoid agitation?
> I have been leaving my air stones off because I was told elsewhere agitation would cause gas exhange and you would lose more co2 than gain.
> 
> Hopefully I have been wrong and my airstones can go back on. Just DIY right now but have a can Im waiting to fill, just to busy/lazy


This is an important question.
Is it correct to assume your tank is heavily planted? I mean, is the total number of plants high? 


Assuming that it is you want *water movement* not agitation to distribute all of the oxygen the plants are producing. Also with a heavily planted tank and a *low fauna population *you don't need airstones. There will remain enough oxygen produced by plants to last through the night.


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## v3mo (May 12, 2014)

Sorry for the late reply, got busy with classes. Unfortunately, I'm in California and she's in Texas so any info I'm getting is from her. I can't be specific as to what's wrong with the tank other than what I can see in our Skype calls.

The BBA is still going strong unfortunately, and tonight my mom showed me that is has even started growing on the poor snail. Like, half of his shell is covered in BBA.  It doesn't seem to be growing too much on the plants though, but she says it does sometimes. It is mainly taking over the driftwood. She tried spot dosing it last week but nothing happened, so she's done it again yesterday. Hopefully it will start dying in the next couple of days.

I had her max out the CO2 to where it nearly gassed the fish. It is as high as it can safely go. I'm also having her dose a bit extra Plantex this week to see if there's any difference. My tank started as heavily planted but unfortunately I lost a bunch of plants along the way for unknown reasons. None of the plants are thriving and it's very frustrating not knowing what's going wrong with this tank.  Should I maybe try having her add more plants to see if the addition of them will help out-compete the algae?

edit- also, the biggest thing that seems to be said about BBA is that it thrives in low CO2 / low flow movement. So why is the BBA in my tank thriving when the CO2 is extremely high and it's growing where the water movement is at it's greatest? The powerhead is pointed towards the driftwood so it's receiving most of the current. I guess that's why I'm so confused. :/


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

Is your Co2 stable during the photoperiod? How's your PH drop?


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## v3mo (May 12, 2014)

Yes, CO2 is stable (I have a pressurized set up). The last time I checked my PH, I believe it was 6.8. There's a lot of CO2 going into this tank... yet so much BBA. I saw the poor snail and it literally has a furry coat of BBA.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

BBA... what a bane. For some of us, it's the worst one. I feel your pain. There are lucky ones that just get rid of it with upping their co2 and fixing their flow. I'm not one of those. Up your co2, stabilize your co2, fix your flow, they say. Those sound like simple things, but are the trickiest things to get right. It's probably why BBA has the most topics in this algae forum. I've sat there, endlessly, just watching water flow, properly agitating to boost oxygen so that I can stabilize and inject even more co2, setting up different filters/powerheads/koralias/skimmers in different configurations just to get proper flow going but to no avail. Just like you, it shows up on the high flow areas! It clings onto the outflow of the filters, the driftwoods, the glass where there's high AND low flow. I sometimes wonder if the area of high flow is where the co2 concentration is the thinnest since that might be where it offgasses the most. 

I've even resorted to living with it. There are times and things I've tried to get rid of it that only triggered worse, more unsightly types of algae -- like staghorn, hair, BGA. Finally, when I slowly reverted those mistakes, I came back to BBA. Thats when I realized.. well, at least it only grows on old leaves, driftwood, and glass. I can occasionally clean the glass, trim the leaves, and admire it on the driftwood. That's how I justified it. 

But guess what? I got caught up with expending my energies on optimizing co2. When you just can't seem to push enough co2, it's time to look again at your light. It's not just enough to claim 30/40/50 .. whatever level of co2 ppm. The measurement is no longer so important. More important is the commonly repeated phrase nowadays "not enough co2 for the light." You might have to rethink again your lighting. Whether it's less intensity or less time or both. 

Even with those two in place, BBA is a tough opponent. Here's where you get diminishing returns as you try to get rid of that last bit. It's probably going to require some patience and observation of the bigger picture. The bigger picture means that you have to realize that you're growing plants, not just fighting algae. Too many changes too fast may not give time for your plants to react and stabilize in their growth. As they stabilize and get happier, they seem to keep algae at bay on their own. Here's where people start talking about aleopathy. The bigger picture also means you can hire critters that help keep the water clean.

So did I finally get rid of my BBA? Well, it's never gone 100% for me. I'm more than happy with 99% here. Remember I was willing to live with it. I got to my 99% by observing the bigger picture and working the tank's ecosystem instead of worrying so much about the BBA. Here's some of the items (AFTER tweaking co2 and lighting properly of course!):

I rescaped and added some fast growing ground cover plants to eliminate any large, bare spots on the substrate. Mine was tissue culture Lobelia Cardinalis that I picked up from Petsmart. You may have to find something that works for you. I suspect that as they grew, they shaded the bare spots, some glass, the driftwood and thus, "reduced lighting" in their surrounding areas as well as probably aleopathically fighting the BBA .. who knows.

I added more dwarf neocaridina shrimp to help my lone amano after his buddies moved on. I think they have a hand at grabbing the newer BBA strands and controlling the excess waste. If dwarf shrimps are too small in that you fish eat them, you may have to go with amanos.

I added a few true siamese algae eaters. This one may be somewhat hard. Because of all the confusion out there, it's sort of tough to find the right ones to buy. I lucked out and saw some mislabeled as flying foxes (you don't want those!). Even then, I may have gotten Crossocheilus langei instead of siamensis, but they sure beat flying foxes. I've seen mine sucking at BBA tufts occasionally. As the only type of algae eaters that care for BBA at all, they may be a worthwhile addition.

So you see, you can't discount these other players in your quest. If you observe all the big aquascaping guys' tanks, James Findley, Amano Takashi, our own Tom Barr, and many of our member tanks that are successful, you'll see a pretty healthy crew of cleaners. If you watch some of their videos of their completed tanks, you may be inspired to emulate, or you may see that missing element of your tank that may solve your issues. I've gotten flow ideas, scape ideas, fauna ideas, and so on. This is all beyond just trying to get that balance CO2/lighting/fertilizers with numbers. It's seeing it in action and seeing it in complete form.

Anyway, hope you find your way, stop stressing your mom. Probably chill a bit and enjoy your college life. Reduce the light, see if you can get the tank to coast a bit, and wait till you get home to fiddle with the tank. It's hard enough to work on a tank when you're there, much harder when you're many states over. Maybe letting it coast may actually resolve some of your issues. When nothing seems to work, many terrestrial and aquatic gardeners both, understand the value of sometimes stepping back, giving the ignore treatment, and letting nature find its own way.


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