# 60 gallon sump design, critiques welcome!



## markisashrimp (Jan 27, 2014)

I'm following along in case I can get some ideas


----------



## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

Here is my first ammateur design, let me know what you think. Improvements, flaws, etc.

My main goal is to have maximum filtration/co2, and if possible I'd like to implement a refugium for shrimp/ fry grow out. 

In this diagram, the main bean animal siphon tube would T and a ball valve would control flow into the refugium. The flow would be very minimal, Maybe 100GPH. That way the rest of the flow 500-600GPH would go through the whole sump. 



Thanks again,
Joshua


----------



## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

Why not just enlarge the area where the main inlets come in and have that be the refugium? I doubt the extra flow would bother any fry too much. 

It seems you don't really have a lot of actual filtration for such a large sump. The wet / dry definitely makes a difference in effectiveness because the bio media is exposed to so much air exchange, but it does make it trickier to minimize CO2 gas off. Everything is a trade off.


----------



## ngrubich (Nov 29, 2011)

Why not use a filter sock for the water coming into the sump?


----------



## Dr Fishbait (Mar 16, 2013)

Hey Josh, nice design to try. Only thing I can see is that the water going into your refugium isn't getting filtered much. How about using a HMF design ( with a medium Poret foam), with the inlet flowing through it into the refugium. Besides filtering, your shrimp and/or fry will love eating all the stuff that will inhabit it. I've seen where you can have the HMF be just in a corner so it won't take up too much space. But again what do I know! Easy to be an armchair quarterback!!!


----------



## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

AaronT said:


> Why not just enlarge the area where the main inlets come in and have that be the refugium? I doubt the extra flow would bother any fry too much.
> 
> It seems you don't really have a lot of actual filtration for such a large sump. The wet / dry definitely makes a difference in effectiveness because the bio media is exposed to so much air exchange, but it does make it trickier to minimize CO2 gas off. Everything is a trade off.



So basically you are saying put the refugium in the front, so that all of the water in the system gets filtered the same? 

I wonder could I put the refugium where the water enters, and put a wet/dry filter after the refugium? 

The only problem I would forsee with this design, is that I wouldn't have very much water volume in the tank for evaporation.

If I change the refugium to the front, and just add 10 more gallons of bio media, would that help? I guess I would like this system to be as quiet as possible, and I've heard trickle wet drys can be noisy. I wouldn't mind doing a wet/dry, i just really would like a refugium if possible.




ngrubich said:


> Why not use a filter sock for the water coming into the sump?


I'm not into changing socks out every 3 days, I want a more set and forget kind of filtration. 




Dr Fishbait said:


> Hey Josh, nice design to try. Only thing I can see is that the water going into your refugium isn't getting filtered much. How about using a HMF design ( with a medium Poret foam), with the inlet flowing through it into the refugium. Besides filtering, your shrimp and/or fry will love eating all the stuff that will inhabit it. I've seen where you can have the HMF be just in a corner so it won't take up too much space. But again what do I know! Easy to be an armchair quarterback!!!


Thats an interesting design, Its similar to the first part of my drawing, but with less glass. Hm... I'll look into it more. 







What do you guys think is more important in a high light/ co2 enriched tank:

More bio?
More mechanical?
Wet/Dry?


Is it not possible to achieve similar results to a wet/dry, by just adding more submersed media? 

I'll redo my sump design and repost a few different configs.

Thanks again for the replies,
Joshua


----------



## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

Having filter socks isn't a bad idea actually. Nothing is set and forget, but if you use the socks you pretty much never have to clean the biomedia, which is a nice trade off. The foam pads will protect it some, but not nearly as much as filter socks. 

I'm using only poret foam in my wet dry right now. The pre filter in the overflow box is 0 ppi, then 4" of 20 ppi and 2" of 30 ppi. I tried to "set and forget" it for 6 months (cleaning the prefilter of course) and when I finally did clean it the 30 ppi foam was absolutely caked with mulm. It took a half hour with the garden hose to get it to run clear.


----------



## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

AaronT said:


> Having filter socks isn't a bad idea actually. Nothing is set and forget, but if you use the socks you pretty much never have to clean the biomedia, which is a nice trade off. The foam pads will protect it some, but not nearly as much as filter socks.
> 
> I'm using only poret foam in my wet dry right now. The pre filter in the overflow box is 0 ppi, then 4" of 20 ppi and 2" of 30 ppi. I tried to "set and forget" it for 6 months (cleaning the prefilter of course) and when I finally did clean it the 30 ppi foam was absolutely caked with mulm. It took a half hour with the garden hose to get it to run clear.




I guess I'm confused at your filter sock logic, change something out every week, or change something out every several weeks/months if I don't use filter socks?

After thinking it over, I may just go full wet/dry setup with no refugium. Refugium's are cool, but at the same time, I feel like I'll have plenty enough to worry about with the 60 gallons on top that I won't really have a want for one. If I do, I can always setup a smaller tank and close loop it into the system later. 

So if I'm going full wet/dry setup, what is the best way to utilize a wet/dry setup with a bean animal overflow to minimalize co2 loss?

Joshua


----------



## 93145 (Jun 24, 2013)

I am loving the idea Pianofish,

When looking at your drawing I would personally have the full siphon going into your area to be filtered so that the majority of your water is prepped for the display tank and just pipe the standpipe directly to the refugium portion. Water flows to the path of least resistance and I think if you split your standpipe return as pictured the refugium would see almost nothing.

Less flow to disturb anything in that section, less possible waste to infect the main tank.

I like Dr.fishbait's idea seems perfect as well.

Just my .02, good luck!


----------



## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

Kind of a waste of a tank IMO. Why don't you just use a 20 long for a sump? You're also going to have to have an oversized footprint of a stand if you use a sump of the same dimensions as your DT.


----------



## Dr Fishbait (Mar 16, 2013)

Josh, I did some research, check out SwissTropicals for the Poret foam corner HMFs . They can customize them to your non standard tank. I also just received some MarinePure bio media ( the spheres). Looking forward to see if they are as good as they claim.


----------



## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

Hmm. I have an idea that I just thought of that might work better. I'll post it later today. The whole reason behind the big tank was that I wanted a refugium. I'm gonna post one last design before calling the refugium idea quits. I know that there are huge benefits of having a wet/dry filter, but I think that if a 90 gallon fish tank can be run off of a couple of canister filters, then why should'nt 20-30 gallons of submerged sump be enough to filter my tank and refugium?


----------



## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

Pianofish,

I am in the process of completing my own DIY sump built out of 20 gal long. I have inlet filter area, refugium for shrimp and fry and then finally a section for my return pump. If you can hold on for a few hours when I get off work I can post some photos to show you. 

In my opinion, a sump for a planted tank should be simple. I respect those that build an extremely complicated sump design with 3 hoses/pipes, ball valves, bean animals, all these sections or areas, but I do not feel the need to do so. All that makes for more maintenance in my opinion. I have a simple inlet, outlet and sump design. The filtration will be more than adequate in my opinion and i even have the option of using a filer sock or blue pads for mechanical. As far as biological filtration is concerned, it is a planted tank. If you keep up on small water changes, do not over feed and rinse out dirty filters/pads every so often you will be just fine. Planted tanks need some nitrates compared to reefs that should be void of them. I would know, I have both.


----------



## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

I can even put more bio media going towards the return pump as well.
I figure, this would give me around a 15 gallon refuge, and also keep everything together in one shot. I will have autotop off on this system, and eventually would like to do drill a runoff hole in the sump for auto drip/ water changes.


What say you? 
Joshua


----------



## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

keep in mind your water levels should not exceed the amount of water that will drain out of the main tank in event of a power failure. 

I also agree with some of the other members that it would benefit you to filter the water before it hits the refugium. All your bio media would have minimal effect if the majority of the detritus, mulm etc. gathers in the refugium and never makes it to your mechanical filters.

I sectioned off a corner of my sump tank with silicone and acrylic to filter the water from the inlet. Then I simply will put another foam pad behind the return pump wall.


----------



## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

So if we treat the refugium as "A", the filter area as "B" and the return/auto top off/ co2 reactor area as "C". Lets try some configurations.

If I did BAC with a coarse filter pad in between the return pump area and the refugium, would that work?


----------



## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

I think it would benefit you to treat the filter area as "A", refugium as "B" and return pump as "C". Just remember to put a filter pad between the refugium and return to prevent fry and shrimp from being shredded and to prevent any un-caught crap from clogging your return pump. 

pics are coming soon.


----------



## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

Priority wise, I agree with you, I just meant a labeling system so I didn't have to type the words as much haha. So with your labels, I would do the setup as ABC with a filter pad inbetween the return pump area and the refuge.


----------



## dprais1 (Sep 12, 2012)

my critique?

way too complicated. use this design http://www.swisstropicals.com/wp_site/wp-content/uploads/Sump-layout.pdf

use a fine poret size far left then a coarse next to it. on the right side use a fine pore size then a coarse. 

use 2" for the fine size and 4" for the coarse. all that space in the middle just became your refugium.

fry will be totally fine. I know because I have a ton of assorted rainbow fish fry in my sump.

that black foam will need to be cleaned regularly and it will collect a lot of junk. this is a pain if your sump is not easily accessible, so make sure you have easy clearance to maintain the filter. the coarse can be cleaned every couple months. they claim it only needs to be cleaned yearly--don't believe it.

the foam will be able to house enough bacteria for for a truely giant tank that is overstocked.

my sump has 1 4" coarse and 1 2" fine. it also has 2 1" thick mattala(?) type sheets(which I don't recommend). I have 25 adult rainbow fish, 20+ juvenile rainbow fish, 60-80 fry, 8 dwarf corys, 6 regular cories, and a BN pleco.

as long as I do waterchanges and clean the black foam my water is clear and my tank is clean.


----------



## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

yessir

Keep in mind your filter area doesn't have to be huge. I made mine as small as I could without sacrificing filter area and large enough to make maintenance easy. I want my refugium to be as large as possible to grow out shrimp and plants such as staurogyne and java ferns.


----------



## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

Okay guys, hows this?










This would be alot more simple, still having a good bit of filtration, and also giving the best water volume in the sump. What do you think? This is going to be my setup for the next 10-15 years, so I'm looking for a system that I can be happy with for years to come. 

Also is it necessary to seal your sump if you don't have a wet/dry?
Joshua


----------



## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

I do not find it necessary to seal the sump. CO2 loss is minimal.

Here is my sump setup. My second wall is not glued in yet and neither is my second foam pad. But here is the basis of what we have been discussing.

What I have found is that using a glue gun to set your acrylic in place and then using silicone sealant works best. Use a small spot of hot glue on the top and bottom corners. Then seal it.


----------



## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

I forgot to mention, I purchased and eschopps micron bag holder. I didn't want to spend the money but it is so easy to attach my inlet hose too. And for maintenance, I just lift it off and replace whatever filter media I chose to use. In the photos you will see a filter sock, but I will probably just cut a blue fliter pad that fits all the way around in the inside. The water flows out of the top.


----------



## markisashrimp (Jan 27, 2014)

ForensicFish said:


> I forgot to mention, I purchased and eschopps micron bag holder. I didn't want to spend the money but it is so easy to attach my inlet hose too. And for maintenance, I just lift it off and replace whatever filter media I chose to use. In the photos you will see a filter sock, but I will probably just cut a blue fliter pad that fits all the way around in the inside. The water flows out of the top.


What size tank did you go with?
Is that rocks I see in with the filter sock? if so, what kind of rock and why/ So I can get a better understanding.


----------



## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

(Quote) What size tank did you go with?
Is that rocks I see in with the filter sock? if so, what kind of rock and why/ So I can get a better understanding.(Quote)

It is a 20 gal ong

The rocks are hot glued on to the exterior of the filter area, not the inside. They are simply small pieces of lace rock. I did this for two reasons:
1. To hide the filter media a bit 
2. prevent the outflow from causing too much turbulence in the refugium area

I will also try to add some moss in between them eventually.


----------



## markisashrimp (Jan 27, 2014)

Cool, had a feeling it's a 20L. Might have to think about this sump design.


----------



## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

My main tank is simply drilled in the top corners, one for inlet one for and outlet. The sump is as you have seen. Simple, effective and fairly cheap.


----------



## markisashrimp (Jan 27, 2014)

having the quietness from the sump is a must for me. 

I greatly appreciate your help.


----------



## Dr Fishbait (Mar 16, 2013)

Great design Josh. Can't go wrong with it I think.


----------



## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

pianofish said:


> I guess I'm confused at your filter sock logic, change something out every week, or change something out every several weeks/months if I don't use filter socks?
> 
> After thinking it over, I may just go full wet/dry setup with no refugium. Refugium's are cool, but at the same time, I feel like I'll have plenty enough to worry about with the 60 gallons on top that I won't really have a want for one. If I do, I can always setup a smaller tank and close loop it into the system later.
> 
> ...


The sock filters are much easier to change out so I figure the actual amount of work is about the same, but just spread out more often. 

For a full wet / dry just make a top to cover the wet / dry portion of the filter. You'd still need a small area that would overflow onto the trickle plate since the bean animal style overflow doesn't prefilter. Otherwise, you'd be changing the pad on the trickle plate every few days.


----------



## dprais1 (Sep 12, 2012)

pianofish said:


> Okay guys, hows this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



this is pretty much what I was thinking, but I would flip the coarse and fine foam. by putting the fine foam first you are catching lots of junk saving you from having to clean the coarse very often. the fine poret foam acts more like a good mechanical, but also biological if you only clean it in tank water. 

also the poret foam from swiss tropicals is fit to size---it gets wedged into place and does not need any means to keep it there so adding acrylic or other dividers is a waste, at least for the poret foam.

(my sump runs Left to right, sorry for confusion is my original suggestion)


----------



## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Josh, I'd strongly urge you to reconsider the design - you've left out the 'dry' portion of a wet/dry filter. Everything I've read (on multiple forums, plus professional sump designs) shows that there is a significant and measureable difference in filtration capacity if you have both wet and dry.

One other item of note...your return pump area is tiny. It would work, but getting your hand down in there would be a trick.

My suggestions: compress the refugium area and add in a drip tray with exposed media. Even if you have to do a 'tower' wet/dry setup.


And my thoughts on filter socks - if you have decent pre-mech filtration (gutter guard to stop leaves and whatnot), socks could work in a low-maintenance setup. If you don't do pre-mech filtration, socks will get overloaded every time you trim (my experience).


----------



## dprais1 (Sep 12, 2012)

crazymittens said:


> Josh, I'd strongly urge you to reconsider the design - you've left out the 'dry' portion of a wet/dry filter. Everything I've read (on multiple forums, plus professional sump designs) shows that there is a significant and measureable difference in filtration capacity if you have both wet and dry.
> 
> One other item of note...your return pump area is tiny. It would work, but getting your hand down in there would be a trick.
> 
> ...


tricky here....just my thoughts...

wet/dry _is_ probably better at filtration.

BUT, the poret foam will have the capacity to harbor more bacteria than you could probably ever hope to need even in a very overstocked tank. So would you see any difference with a wet/dry? I don't think so. Unless you plan on keeping a bunch of full grown goldfish, and even then I'm not sure it would really prove 'better.'

The difference in water quality will eventually come down to two things;

1. how often you change water to remove buildup of excessive nutrients and organics (such as nitrate and general waste/detritus/mulm)

2. How often you clean your filter media which traps lots of waste/mulm/detritus ie organics that break down into nitrates etc.


A wet/dry won't remove those things(neither will any filter they just trap them), but may make it harder to do so. Poret foam you take out and rinse and put back, no finagling with parts or doors, snaps or locks. That is why you want plenty of clearance to get to your sump.

If you rinse one of the black or fine poret foam each time you do a water change you will be light years ahead of a wet/dry will you only end up cleaning the media once overy two-three months because it is such a pain.

It is the same as my 68yr old mother buying a $2,000 Mac to look at Facebook once a month and check her emails every two months. Nice, but overkill without any benefit from using a plain ol' $400 desktop. 


Just my thoughts


----------



## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

Crazy, I'm gonna have to agree with dprais on this one. I know there are huge benefits from a bacteria growing standpoint (healthier more active) but why then do so many people have beautiful tank running canisters? This will be in a jist 3-4 times te media of any type of canisters that I would put on this tank. Also in agreement with dprais, I will be dosing Ei meaning 50% water changes every week. I imagine that given the additional plant mass in the sump along with the large amount of bio media that will be present, my tank should be pretty stable. 

I just personally prefer a nice refugium over a wet/dry. 

I will put gutter guard on my overflow, so hopefully with that it can space out my sponge cleanings. 

I can always get a few filter socks to keep handy and after a big trim put them on for 2-3 days while the debris collects. 

I will shrink the refugium slightly to better be able to reach the pump, but other than that I really like this design, seems pretty simple.


----------



## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

Piano,

I have a guard on my overflow/inlet drain and it collects 90% of all excess plant trimmings/clippings/pieces etc. And the remaining get caught in the filter sock. While I agree that a healthy bacteria population will help, I just believe that water changes and rinsing out filters will be just as effective and you can still have your refugium as like Dprais said.

What I don't think many people realize is that by having a refugium you can easily add another layer of biological filtration via substrates. And in a planted tank, I personally do not believe that the extra biological filtration will be that necessary unless you want to keep discus, rams or have no desire for water changes.


----------



## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

ForensicFish said:


> Piano,
> 
> I have a guard on my overflow/inlet drain and it collects 90% of all excess plant trimmings/clippings/pieces etc. And the remaining get caught in the filter sock. While I agree that a healthy bacteria population will help, I just believe that water changes and rinsing out filters will be just as effective and you can still have your refugium as like Dprais said.
> 
> What I don't think many people realize is that by having a refugium you can easily add another layer of biological filtration via substrates. And in a planted tank, I personally do not believe that the extra biological filtration will be that necessary unless you want to keep discus, rams or have no desire for water changes.


I won't have discus for sure, beautiful fish, but not into the high maintenance. And this will be a planted refugium for sure, I'm thinking of having a buce/ aroid only scape similar to my current 20 gallon in the refugium and having a more stemmish scape with "dutch"ish qualities in the 60 gallon display, that way the refuge will be very low maintenance, and I can have a place to grow my favorite plants. 

As far as fish go, I'm thinking a school of corys, a school of tetras, and maybe a pair of rams or apistos. And with weekly water changes, and lots of media for bio to stick on, I don't think I will have any issues.


----------



## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

If you do go the Ram route, search for captive bred specimens. They will likely do much better then wild caught as they are more suited for the average tank conditions.


----------



## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

Yep definitely going with captive bred if I end up getting them. 

What ppi poret foam should I get for fine sponge and which should I get for coarse sponge?


----------



## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

I think the benefit of wet/dry is that you get two types of bacteria. If you just do wet you miss out on the benefits of the 'dry' bacteria. i.e. aerobic vs. anaerobic. This is what I figured from Tom Barr et al. anyways. He made a good point that any 'professional' sump will incorporate wet/dry.

Canisters are fine, but you are forced to keep up on water changes. The sump is part1 in reducing the need for constant water changes (expanding your volume). The wet portion gives you anaerobic bacteria. The dry portion gives you aerobic bacteria.

I'm not gonna pretend I know exactly what they do, but I know that having both is key for 'best filtration'.

I guess your situation is different since you're breeding, but I've had this tank online since early November and I've done one 25% water change. Water is crystal clear. Fish are happy. Plants are growing. Tank is clean. Just saying that since one of your goals was low maintenance, you'd want to incorporate every asset in the sump arsenal to help.

I look forward to the build nonetheless! 


One item I was searching for was the 'silver bullet' of sumps. As of this time, since the freshwater sump seems to be a new concept, there is no concrete answer beyond 'look at what the pros do'. Sump discussion threads like this greatly interest me - thanks for taking the time to diagram and discuss!


----------



## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

Good discussion all around.

I do not quite understand the wet/dry concept involving anaerobic bacteria and aerobic bacteria either. In general layman's biology terms, aerobic means "with oxygen" and anaerobic means "without oxygen". As a graduate with a biology degree I can discuss what both of those mean in terms of cellular respiration, but along with Crazymittens I do not know exactly how they pertain to aquarium biology filtration.


----------



## dprais1 (Sep 12, 2012)

I've always read that pretty much ALL bacteria we have in our tanks are aerobic. to have anaerobic you would need a very specialized type of filter or a deep sand bed. I don't believe that a wet/dry would give you anaerobic, it would just maximize the aerobic bacteria, which we all have in plenty in a cycled tank.

I would be interested to read tom barr's discussion on this.....


----------



## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

crazymittens said:


> I think the benefit of wet/dry is that you get two types of bacteria. If you just do wet you miss out on the benefits of the 'dry' bacteria. i.e. aerobic vs. anaerobic. This is what I figured from Tom Barr et al. anyways. He made a good point that any 'professional' sump will incorporate wet/dry.
> 
> Canisters are fine, but you are forced to keep up on water changes. The sump is part1 in reducing the need for constant water changes (expanding your volume). The wet portion gives you anaerobic bacteria. The dry portion gives you aerobic bacteria.
> 
> ...


I agree with you mate, I figured a good design thread was necessary as there really aren't many freshwater discussions out there, much less planted freshwater. I've learned alot in talking over this design. I realize that I will have to do more water changes, however, I was planning on doing that any way. I guess our aims are a little different. As this will be a high light/ ei dosed/ co2 injected tank, so increased water changes are a must for me. But they will be automated, don't worry. 




ForensicFish said:


> Good discussion all around.
> 
> I do not quite understand the wet/dry concept involving anaerobic bacteria and aerobic bacteria either. In general layman's biology terms, aerobic means "with oxygen" and anaerobic means "without oxygen". As a graduate with a biology degree I can discuss what both of those mean in terms of cellular respiration, but along with Crazymittens I do not know exactly how they pertain to aquarium biology filtration.



Yeah, I can understand that much too, not sure of much else though in those regards.

Thanks again everyone,
Joshua


----------



## dprais1 (Sep 12, 2012)

Part of what makes this is a great thread is no one is throwing stones and trying to force others to agree with them, everyone is sharing thier knowledge and experience and trying to learn....of course, I'm more right than everyone else  joking


----------



## dprais1 (Sep 12, 2012)

oh... I have a mag 5 as my return pump and use the foam prefilter that came with it. I had a mag 9.5 but it blew my sand and plants around too much.


----------



## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

I have the new Aqueon AQ1700 as my return pump. I was a little skeptical about the brand but I couldn't argue as it was a Christmas gift. But I will say, it is quiet, and the GPH is pretty much exactly how I needed it. Not too strong, not too weak. We'll see how long it performs....


----------



## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

Thanks for the pump info guys. I have one question. Do you think that water will choose to go over the sponges instead of through them? Given the current sump diagram. 
Joshua


----------



## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

autotrophic nitrifying bacteria convert ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate which requires an abundance of oxygen.

http://www.oscarfish.com/article-home/water/71-autotrophic-bacteria-manifesto.html


----------



## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

If you are worried about that you can do a couple of things, but I don't think it will be an issue.

First, you can lower your intake pipe/tube towards the bottom of the sump. This way the water will travel in a upwards path into your foam and eventually over the top, but it might not be 100%. If you go this method, be sure NOT to block the water coming out. So make sure to suspend you intake tube about 3 inches or so above the bottom of the sump.

Second, you can simply add a second wall in front (intake side) of your foam. Seal the wall all the way to the top of sump and leave an inch of space at the bottom. This way, the water has no choice but to travel below the new wall and up through your foam and out the top.


----------



## Dr Fishbait (Mar 16, 2013)

Can't you just make the inlet pipes go half way or more down in the refugium so the water is forced to go through the sponges or will that creat a problem?


----------



## Dr Fishbait (Mar 16, 2013)

I post way too slow!


----------



## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

ForensicFish said:


> If you are worried about that you can do a couple of things, but I don't think it will be an issue.
> 
> First, you can lower your intake pipe/tube towards the bottom of the sump. This way the water will travel in a upwards path into your foam and eventually over the top, but it might not be 100%. If you go this method, be sure NOT to block the water coming out. So make sure to suspend you intake tube about 3 inches or so above the bottom of the sump.
> 
> Second, you can simply add a second wall in front (intake side) of your foam. Seal the wall all the way to the top of sump and leave an inch of space at the bottom. This way, the water has no choice but to travel below the new wall and up through your foam and out the top.


I like the second step, its one more piece of glass, but I like the idea. I'll still get horizontal flow, but it will be more forced. I think I would leave .5" from the top of the sump though, just to have some ugh oh room incase of flooding. I'll post a pic in a sec of the new design.


----------



## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

Basically the only thing that would change would be the addition of the new glass. before the sponges on the right, causing the water to go down first and then up. If I use this configurations, I may invert the sponges horizontally and having it rise through the media, like a canister filter style. I think it would give overall better filtration?I'll just make a basket type system for the bio media on top.


----------



## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

Before I put anything in my sump I did a test power outage. I filled my display tank up and put enough water in my sump to let the return pump to run with no issues. I let that run for approximately 10 min to let the water levels in the sump and main tank to stabilize (measure here) (add more water at this point if you feel your water level in the main is too low) then I simply shut it all off. I let the water drain from the main to sump until it reach below the intake where it would not drain anymore. I measured from my starting water level in the sump before the power outage then the level after the power outage. And now you have a pretty accurate idea of how high you can fill your sump.


----------



## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

pianofish said:


> Basically the only thing that would change would be the addition of the new glass. before the sponges on the right, causing the water to go down first and then up. If I use this configurations, I may invert the sponges horizontally and having it rise through the media, like a canister filter style. I think it would give overall better filtration?I'll just make a basket type system for the bio media on top.


You nailed it.


----------



## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

Still not a huge fan of the beananimal though. I just don't see the benefit of all the extra work and material. Just my opinion.


----------



## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

What do you think of the second layout? Would that give all the media more equal flow?
Joshua


----------



## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

I think both setups would do you just fine. But I would go with the second design with the basket setup. Just seems more efficient.


----------



## bostoneric (Sep 7, 2011)

ForensicFish said:


> I think both setups would do you just fine. But I would go with the second design with the basket setup. Just seems more efficient.


agreed. forces the water through each type of foam.
the other way water will find the path of least resistance causing dead spots that get no flow.


----------



## Discusdude7 (Sep 14, 2013)

Well here is what I'm doing with my 40B sump on 120 gallon:
Divided into 2 sections with 2 peices of Poret foam, both 3 inch, one 20 and one 30 PPI. My overflows dump into a basket with poly filter pads, this basket is cut into a peice of eggcrate and there are two hole cut in the bottom. The holes drain into the first compatment with k1 fluidized bed filter media which is aerated by 4-5 big air stones. This compartment also has my heaters and bags of seachem matrix. The first compartment is also much larger than second. All that's in second compartment is return pump and simplicity chemical reactor with purigen in it.


----------



## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Either one would work, but the 'force flow through each foam' is better. Just make sure you have enough room above that first baffle for the inevitable clogging. (3/4" is tons, but calculate please)

Huge disagree about the BeanAnimal statement. Dats crazy talk for another thread.

The statement about power outage test is valid, but if he's using a similar internal/external overflow box, the water level in the sump would only rise by an inch or so at most. (do calculate this, please!)


I threw the idea around of doing a writeup on freshwater sump theories, but I really have no credentials to do so. I think it could probably go under three headings:

slow growth/low maintenance - you want a tank, but don't want the work - water changes shmwater changes, plants are happy, fish are happy - you need lots of plants and water
something in between - ya, you'll probably use a canister - move along
fast growth/high maintenance - you are an advanced hobbyist - breeding, dosing, fast plant growth and water quality perfection for dem fry - lots of plants and an automated WC system

I tend to generalize. But it's probably something that'd be helpful, what with the lack of beginner info out there.


----------



## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

So I learned a valuable lesson tonight. The Eschopps filter bag holder does not sit very well on the side of the tank when you have the flex pipe attached to it. So I would recommend you hard pipe your inlet with PVC or cut the flex pipe to proper length.

So if Lowe's doesn't have a flex elbow for PVC then I will have to get rid of bag holder and just sit the PVC pipe in my filter chamber.


----------



## bostoneric (Sep 7, 2011)

you are better off without the filter sock anyways. you'll just end up having to clean/swap it out a couple times a week because it traps so much. if you dont it will end up being a nitrate factory.

in my opinion anyways.


----------



## ngrubich (Nov 29, 2011)

bostoneric said:


> you are better off without the filter sock anyways. you'll just end up having to clean/swap it out a couple times a week because it traps so much. if you dont it will end up being a nitrate factory.
> 
> in my opinion anyways.


I change mine about once a week. IME, they don't get clogged that fast (especially when compared to saltwater setups).


----------



## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

Bought poret foam from Swiss tropicals. They are a little expensive, but I reckon it will last for a long time to come. Got foam for the last design posted with the foam oriented horizontally, so the water flows vertically. Ill post pics once I get the whole sump setup. I used muriatic acid to clean out the calcium deposits on the glass this weekend. It worked okay. Still a little hazy but not as bad. Gave it several good rinses. Now I will let it sit for a few days and then take a razor blade to te silicone to reseal the internals. And then I'll add in the baffles.


----------



## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

Let me know how the poret foam works. I am debating on purchasing 30ppi foam for the intake section and then 10 or 20 ppi foam as a barrier between my refugium and return pump. The 30ppi foam in the intake will never be rinsed save for twice a year (maybe). The barrier foam will need to be rinsed once the water flow becomes restricted.


----------



## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

Well for my sump design, I reckon that I'll need to be rinsing the 30 ppi foam alot more than the other foam, as 30 ppi is much finer and will get clogged much faster. Just make sure that however you design it, you allow room for water to flow on top of the sponge in the worst case scenario of complete clog. 

The foam came in by the way, and it really is high quality stuff. Very sturdy, can easily stand on its own in a sump. Although supports won't hurt. Any one have any tips on cutting poret foam to size neatly?

Joshua


----------



## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

use a utility knife with a brand new blade to cut it. Any power tool is likely to shred the edges. 

As you have seen from my photos, my intake is a completely sealed chamber causing the water to flow over the edges. I made a basket for my filter sock to sit in, once the water exits the filter sock, it will come in contact with the poret foam along the interior sides. No matter how clogged the foam gets, water will still overflow the sides down into the refugium area as it was designed.


----------



## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

Yes sir, so you should be great. 
As soon as I reseal my sump and cut the baffles to size, I'll post some construction pics here for anyone following along.
Joshua


----------



## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

pianofish said:


> Any one have any tips on cutting poret foam to size neatly?
> 
> Joshua


They recommend a sharp chef's knife. I tried it and it works well.


----------



## Bratmanxj (Jul 25, 2013)

I've been using Poret foam "Walls" in my 20g sump on my 75g planted cichlid tank for a while now. 600+ gph flow through a 10ppi -> 20 ppi -> 30 ppi and back to the tank. I clean the 10 ppi about three times a year, and the 20 ppi & 30 ppi once or twice a year.


----------

