# I am going to stop dosing my tank for a while



## Veritas (Aug 9, 2013)

very interested to see what happens. I'll be following this one.


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## jr125 (Mar 5, 2015)

Good luck with your experiment. I read through your thread on the 75g and you should have a good baseline to make comparisons.

I'm trying to figure out dosing and light for my 125g low tech and progress is very slow. I have a BML Dutch XB and a BML 10000K XB set up in the front and back similar to how you have yours. The 10000K is in the back. I have been dimming them down a bit about every week of so and from what you have yours running at I can go a lot further. Dutch Planted is at 67% and 10000K is at 60%. Still growing a fair amount of bba and getting the green dust algae on the glass. Things have improved but not where I want to be. I keep thinking the plants will slow down if I reduce the lights too much but apparently I have a lot of room to play with on them yet.

I like your plan to start lean and then try to adjust as needed. I think sometimes simpler can be better. **** luck and update as things progress.

Better go turn my lights down some more.


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## quiquik (Dec 13, 2013)

I'm curious on how things go with your setup, I too have been kinda doing what you're going to do. The one thing I noticed as far as dosing iron is my dwarf sag which is not so dwarf was getting hair algae towards the upper parts of each blade closest to the light. When I cut back on the amount of iron it basically started to disappear. I'm also cutting back a bit on my macro's especially kno3, the reason being is that I would only test before my tank maintenance on Saturday's, and it would basically be between 20 to 30 ppm which is fine but, I've been laidoff and have more time on my hands and decided to see more of a day to day or every other day accumulation or uptake I've been getting. I believe that I'm finding out I don't have to dose as much as I originally thought. I'm also doing the same with cms+b not because any of my plants look bad or have any evidence of "toxicity" but just want to see if I can get by with less and still have plants thrive. Hey sounds like modified EI dosing, wow! Hopefully I can get some kind of system down before I go back to work at the end of March. Tweek, tweek, and tweek again. I have a planted plus pro on the rim of a 50gal. about 16 inches from the substrate, and it's dialed down to 65 percent.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Basically this should act as a 'detox' for my tank. Once I see deficiencies I will dose a little bit and see if I can nail the point where I am as lean as I can get with good results. Because my tank is established with solid plant mass I feel I can screw around and not totally crash my setup.

Main things I want to pay attention to (these are obvious)

- Plant health
- Increase / decrease in algae

Current state:
Plants:
- Tops of all ludwigia species are very healthy (IMO at least lol) and grow very well. Ludwigia red gets pretty bright red, brevipes has an orange tint to it, arcuata has a nice color to it.
- Some of the mid-leaves grow the black fuzz algae on them and are generally not the best.
- Lower leaves on stems thin out and tend to fall off. Not so bad that I am picking tons of leaves out of my tank but every once in a while I will have to snag a bunch of leaves from various plants out of my surface skimmer.
- AR mini has algae on it and looks terrible. Have ONLY A FEW RARE TIMES been able to get nice healthy growth out of this plant
- Blyxa does fine because it's blyxa lol. Totally algae free
- DHG belem gets some algae on it when I neglect trimming it for too long. It never gets bad though and a good trim / letting it grow out again makes it look very nice and fresh

Overall I would say my plants are like 75-80% healthy. Could definitely be better.

Algae:
- Decent amount of BBA on my largest rock. This used to be more in check but for some reason in the past few weeks it has gotten worse again. Every once in a while I will nuke it with hydrogen peroxide and excel to kill it off.
- Smaller rocks have BBA on them as well
- I almost NEVER get BBA on the glass anymore
- Some of my intake tubes are caked in BBA. I should probably clean these off ASAP. It has been a while lol
- Quite rarely do I get GSA (spot algae) on my glass. I do however get dust algae on my glass and scrape it all off with a razor once or twice a week (except for the back of the tank because I don't care lol)

My algae is quite controlled. I NEVER get 'outbreaks' anymore where some unknown algal force screws me over. Tank is very established and predictable and has been doing pretty well for a while now. I would rate my algae control at like 75% by my standards. 100% would be like totally algae free, 50% or under I would consider you have major issues and need to take drastic measures. As you can probably guess BBA is my biggest issue. Followed by the black fuzz algae I get on some of my stem plants. Dust on the glass I really don't even care about anymore as it is not a big deal to me.

Over time I will compare my tank's status to what I just posted above. This will act as the baseline. The tank has been in this state for at least a month now so I can say with confidence that quitting dosing for a while will be the reason changes occur (if any who knows lol)

Since people are actually interested in this I will kind of maybe promise to take pics and post them. I also might be too lazy and just go play pool or go skiing or hang out with my girlfriend instead of doing that.



jr125 said:


> Good luck with your experiment. I read through your thread on the 75g and you should have a good baseline to make comparisons.
> 
> I'm trying to figure out dosing and light for my 125g low tech and progress is very slow. I have a BML Dutch XB and a BML 10000K XB set up in the front and back similar to how you have yours. The 10000K is in the back. I have been dimming them down a bit about every week of so and from what you have yours running at I can go a lot further. Dutch Planted is at 67% and 10000K is at 60%. Still growing a fair amount of bba and getting the green dust algae on the glass. Things have improved but not where I want to be. I keep thinking the plants will slow down if I reduce the lights too much but apparently I have a lot of room to play with on them yet.
> 
> ...


I used to run my lights at comparable intensity and after reducing them to what they are now I am still getting just as good growth with less issues. The only difference is how 'red' my plants get. Under that much light my brevipes would get nice and orange and my arcuata would look beautiful and get a dark orange color. However it was not worth battling algae and the increased tank maintenance IMO. You are not even using CO2 (low tech) so I would consider dropping the intensity. I preach lowering light for these reasons. The hobby becomes a lot easier.



quiquik said:


> I'm curious on how things go with your setup, I too have been kinda doing what you're going to do. The one thing I noticed as far as dosing iron is my dwarf sag which is not so dwarf was getting hair algae towards the upper parts of each blade closest to the light. When I cut back on the amount of iron it basically started to disappear.


This is promising news and is exactly what I am aiming to do. The tops / new growth on my plants are VERY healthy but on the leaves a few nodes down they start to develop the black fuzz and it is quite unsightly.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Looking forward to your follow up posts. Your tank sounds very, very similar to mine. 

Good luck and keep us posted, and of course, pics are always good!


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Will be following this with great interest klibs. 

Get some pics up soon so we can see what's happening. The GF can wait!


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## jrill (Nov 20, 2013)

I will be watching too. But, I predict major algae outbreak to fellow.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Also I am already on like day 2 or 3 of this


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## pauliewoz (Sep 22, 2015)

Subscribed, curious to see the results.

I'm considering doing the same at some point in the near future.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

I think you need to get your water tested. My services are always available. Hahaha

Well good luck.


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## quiquik (Dec 13, 2013)

My filters and pipes get cleaned at least every other week. The inside glass gets cleaned every week and the substrate gets a surface vac. and I seek out any dead or crappy looking leaves. I'm kinda anal that way but I believe it helps when fighting to keep algae at a minimum.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Yeah I clean my filters about once a month (2x EHEIM 2217s), have never fully cleaned my hoses, usually scrub off the hardware in the tank every month at filter time.

I definitely agree that keeping up with tank maintenance is paramount to success. However that is not really the main point of this experiment so I will not really do anything more than what I normally do. I am definitely overdue on cleaning the hardware in the tank and getting the BBA off it so I will do that soon lol


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## quiquik (Dec 13, 2013)

Yes I got ya. I'm very interested in seeing how it goes.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

As long as the plants continue to do well you will not have reduced the dosing too much. The experts all preach using the plants as the indicator for determining if you are doing something wrong. Obviously the more experience you have of studying your plants the more effective this is.


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## jr125 (Mar 5, 2015)

klibs said:


> I used to run my lights at comparable intensity and after reducing them to what they are now I am still getting just as good growth with less issues. The only difference is how 'red' my plants get. Under that much light my brevipes would get nice and orange and my arcuata would look beautiful and get a dark orange color. However it was not worth battling algae and the increased tank maintenance IMO. You are not even using CO2 (low tech) so I would consider dropping the intensity. I preach lowering light for these reasons. The hobby becomes a lot easier.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the comments. I guess in the back of my mind I'm still thinking more light will get the plants going and out-compete the algae. I need to realize with no CO2 there is a limit to what I can expect. It's only necessary to provide enough light to support whatever growth is realistically possible given my situation. I've been more and more accepting of that reality due to the many folks here that try to pound that into the heads of stubborn people like myself. Change can be hard.


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

klibs said:


> Day 2 - 1/8 tsp Iron Chelate (11% DTPA), 1/16 tsp CSM+B


Is this a typical Iron Chelate to CSM+B ratio? Yours is 2-to-1. Mine is 1-to-3. I started doing this about 5 years ago, and to be honest didn't give it much thought. I seem to recall just hearing that CSM+B might not be supplying enough iron, so this is what I came up with.


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## Cheetah2 (Nov 24, 2015)

Hmmm. Most advice tends to favor minor changes. This approach is going the opposite direction. I'm still new to this hobby, but not to scientific experiments or R&D development work. If your tank burps at you, how will you be able to tell which of those fertilizers is needed or not, or at redefined levels, and maybe at different ratios?
I like the idea of testing how much is really necessary, and we could all benefit from that. Is there any reason why you choose to drop everything and then add back, opposed to dilute your current dosages until you see deficiencies? You might be able to pinpoint your sweet spot faster that way.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Added a ton of pics to the first post. These pics were taken on DAY 3 of this experiment (2/5/2016). No noticeable changes at this point.

I think my Ludwigia Red is the worst looking plant. I am not getting ideal growth out of it (for what reason I am not sure)

If anyone can identify a reason (toxicity, deficiency, etc) for why my growth is a little curled like that please let me know.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

My L. red curls up from too much micros/Fe, and lose color. It will happen overnight. It will also straighten up in just a few days after a big water change with no micros. Last page of my journal has some pics.

Yours doesnt look that bad to me.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

More good news! Thanks as always man. I believe I have been dosing too much iron because at times my L Red looks good. After WC I will pay attention and see how it goes.

So basically my nitrate and phosphate levels are too high. Nitrate is around 80ppm and Phosphate is around 5ppm. I will do my scheduled water change today. The only thing I will be putting back in the tank is Ca / Mg.
I will also be doing somewhat regular readings of tank parameters. Might even do some extra water changes to get all these excess nutrients out.

If the community feels this would be wise please let me know.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

You have sand right? A couple back to back 80% water changes with no dosing in between should effectively reset your nutrient levels. Then you can start back with a clean slate, so to speak.


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## jr125 (Mar 5, 2015)

I have absolutely no experience doing something like what you are attempting but am wondering if you strip the plants of everything in a very short period of time is there a chance that in itself will be detrimental. I'm thinking of how plants will often suffer a setback when they are transferred from one set of parameters to another. These plants are going to kinda go cold turkey here. Would it be better to more slowly acclimate them to reduced nutrients? If there is a rapid decline how will you know its the change in nutrients etc. as opposed to just a reaction to such a sudden significant change in conditions? Just thinking out loud, so to speak. Maybe someone will be able to shed some light.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

No by discontinuing dosing it will not immediately drop all fert levels to 0 and my plants starve. This is not the same as dropping CO2 or light because ferts remain in the water column. CO2 will gas off each night - ferts in the water column will not. They don't just disappear unless they are consumed. As shown by some tests my water column is saturated with excess ferts. Over time the plants should gradually consume ferts in the water column and eventually hit a point where they need me to dose again. This will not happen overnight.

If anyone disagrees with that feel free to share...


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## quiquik (Dec 13, 2013)

No, I believe you are correct unless of course some major water changes are made. Not sure how much residual ferts might be in the substrate either, and I don't know if ferts precipitate out over time, I believe not, thus the reason for 50 percent wc each week with EI dosing.


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## jr125 (Mar 5, 2015)

klibs said:


> No by discontinuing dosing it will not immediately drop all fert levels to 0 and my plants starve. This is not the same as dropping CO2 or light because ferts remain in the water column. CO2 will gas off each night - ferts in the water column will not. They don't just disappear unless they are consumed. As shown by some tests my water column is saturated with excess ferts. Over time the plants should gradually consume ferts in the water column and eventually hit a point where they need me to dose again. This will not happen overnight.
> 
> If anyone disagrees with that feel free to share...


That makes sense. I guess I was focusing in on the suggestion to do a couple of very large water changes.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

jr125 said:


> That makes sense. I guess I was focusing in on the suggestion to do a couple of very large water changes.


The suggestion for two big water changes was to reset the nutrient levels, then start back with known levels. I did not mean take everything to zero and stay there.


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## jr125 (Mar 5, 2015)

burr740 said:


> The suggestion for two big water changes was to reset the nutrient levels, then start back with known levels. I did not mean take everything to zero and stay there.


 I'm not well versed on this topic. Could you give me some idea of what percentage of nutrients would be left after two 80% water changes? It would seem to me that would remove 80% of the nutrients with the first change and then 80% of the remaining 20% of nutrients with the second change. Wouldn't that leave you with just 4% of the original amount + what might remain in the substrate etc.?


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

jr125 said:


> I'm not well versed on this topic. Could you give me some idea of what percentage of nutrients would be left after two 80% water changes? It would seem to me that would remove 80% of the nutrients with the first change and then 80% of the remaining 20% of nutrients with the second change. Wouldn't that leave you with just 4% of the original amount + what might remain in the substrate etc.?


Your math is correct. 20% of 20% is 4% (.20 * .20 = .04).


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

jr125 said:


> I'm not well versed on this topic. Could you give me some idea of what percentage of nutrients would be left after two 80% water changes? It would seem to me that would remove 80% of the nutrients with the first change and then 80% of the remaining 20% of nutrients with the second change. Wouldn't that leave you with just 4% of the original amount + what might remain in the substrate etc.?


Correct. That is the idea behind it, to reset the nutrient levels to near zero. From there you can start dosing again, knowing that the only thing in the tank is however much you just put in there.

In other words you wont be dosing micros on top of unknown levels of micros, Fe on top of unknown levels of Fe, etc.

It will help eliminate a lot of time and guesswork, not to mention provide immediate relief if anything has built up to toxic levels. That's why I ask if he still had inert sand for substrate. Unlike aquasoils or high CEC substances, sand isnt going to house many nutrients.


Stopping all ferts until a deficiency pops up is going to be confusing. A deficiency will show up when the first nutrient runs out, not the last. (see leibig's law of minimum)


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Day 6 baby

So far my tank has not crashed. Noticing excellent growth in L Arcuata / Brevipes. New growth from the past few days is noticeably more colorful (redder). New growth on L Red is also more vivid but it is still slightly deformed / not ideal. Everything else remains unchanged. I have also noticed that I am getting much less algae on the glass - I usually would have had to scrape it off by now. It has been longer than usual since I have scraped my glass...

API test kit levels...

Still looking quite high. Very little difference from 3 days ago (BEFORE my 50% water change)
Nitrates ~40ppm
Phosphates ~5ppm


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Under futher observation it looks like I have a potassium (K) deficiency. Older leaves are dying off at a more rapid rate now and many of them are showing the classic 'pinholes' in the leaves.

Given my API test kit results I am quite certain that I am not deficient in N or P... I am also wary that these test results might be misleading as the API liquid kits are notorious for being inaccurate. I can also get N and P from feeding my fish... Either way I am fairly certain I am seeing K deficiency first.

I am going to add a one-time dose of EI levels of K

1/4 tsp of K2SO4 added tonight (day 6)


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

The necrotic holes of the old growth are unlikely to be K deficiency but probably a toxicity of iron, especially at the concentrations you are dosing. An Fe:Mn imbalance exacerbates this problem so if you're still dosing high Fe but no Mn, iron tox results.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> The necrotic holes of the old growth are unlikely to be K deficiency but probably a toxicity of iron, especially at the concentrations you are dosing. An Fe:Mn imbalance exacerbates this problem so if you're still dosing high Fe but no Mn, iron tox results.


I stopped dosing Fe and continued to supplement with 1 tsp CaSO4, 1/4 tsp MgSO4 after my water change a few days ago. So I should be heading in the right direction there. I may do another WC either tonight or tomorrow to try and further level things out if people think that would be a good idea.

As far as I know extra K shouldn't really harm me


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Day 8 - performed another 50% water change.

Per API test kit my levels after the WC are:

Nitrates ~20-30 ppm
Phosphates ~2ppm

Still no noticeable improvement / suffering of plants


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Interesting discussion regarding the pinholes on older growth. I seem to get alot of that in my Hygro. Will be keeping track of your progress.


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

Can you check you TDS??


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

klibs said:


> Under futher observation it looks like I have a potassium (K) deficiency. Older leaves are dying off at a more rapid rate now and many of them are showing the classic 'pinholes' in the leaves.
> 
> Given my API test kit results I am quite certain that I am not deficient in N or P... I am also wary that these test results might be misleading as the API liquid kits are notorious for being inaccurate. I can also get N and P from feeding my fish... Either way I am fairly certain I am seeing K deficiency first.
> 
> ...


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

More good news - thanks for the info Jeff

I will keep going without dosing for a few more days then dose lean amounts of NPK. Still not going to dose micros though


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## The Big Buddha (Jul 30, 2012)

I run PPS pro minus the N, and dose the trace as recommended. I noticed a big improvement in my tanks after removing N completely from the fertz. My tanks are all medium to heavily stocked with co2 and medium to medium/high light. I feed the tanks well with homemade gel recipe. However if I miss a day of dosing my hygro gets the pinholes right away. So I guess I'm pretty lean on K. But my plants are also not very high demanding plants.

Klibs, will you still be doing weekly WC's and how much? This is a very interesting thread and I look forward to seeing the long term results. 

I am at the point of doing 30% WC once per month, so far the tank is doing good on this schedule, Which I've been running since the setup this fall.

Here's a pic of my 90g running this program.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

The Big Buddha said:


> I run PPS pro minus the N, and dose the trace as recommended. I noticed a big improvement in my tanks after removing N completely from the fertz. My tanks are all medium to heavily stocked with co2 and medium to medium/high light. I feed the tanks well with homemade gel recipe. However if I miss a day of dosing my hygro gets the pinholes right away. So I guess I'm pretty lean on K. But my plants are also not very high demanding plants.
> 
> Klibs, will you still be doing weekly WC's and how much? This is a very interesting thread and I look forward to seeing the long term results.
> 
> ...


I do the standard 50% water change each week. I have done an additional one to try and 'detox' my tank after noticing how high my nutrient levels were. I am keeping this all in a log on the first page.

Bump:


PortalMasteryRy said:


> Can you check you TDS??


No I do not have a TDS meter but I can certainly purchase one. Why do you ask? Is there a distinct correlation between TDS and plant health?


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

klibs said:


> No I do not have a TDS meter but I can certainly purchase one. Why do you ask? Is there a distinct correlation between TDS and plant health?


A TDS Tester reading will give you an idea of how much is dissolved in the water column in comparison to your tap. 

Edward PPS


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

performed another water change today AND completely re-planted the tops of my background stems. Tank is looking really sparse right now but I got rid of all of the struggling parts / algae covered parts of the stems that hadn't seen light due to the thick canopy. I will post current Nitrate / Phosphate values soon

Nitates: ~5ppm
Phosphates ~1ppm

Do you guys think I should dose my tank? I am planning on doing macros only if I decide to dose


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Day 13

Nitrates: ~5ppm
Phosphates: ~.5-1ppm

I am going to dose macros tomorrow... According to http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilator.php:

1/4 tsp KNO3, 1/8 tsp KH2PO4, 1/8 tsp K2SO4 should yield:

2.8 ppm NO3, 1.7 ppm PO4, 5 ppm K

After tomorrow I do not think I will dose for a while longer...

Here are some pics of the tank now...


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## quiquik (Dec 13, 2013)

Just curious klibs, is the bba just on the light colored rocks, because I don't see it anywhere else? At least from what I can tell from the pic's.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

quiquik said:


> Just curious klibs, is the bba just on the light colored rocks, because I don't see it anywhere else? At least from what I can tell from the pic's.


Yep mostly just on the rocks... It grows a on my probes / some plumbing / a little bit on my hair grass as well. Everything else is prettymuch algae free.

The BBA on the rocks was expected to get worse once I cut so much plant mass out. I am hoping over time the tank will balance and it will once again be in control. I will probably nuke it with some H2O2 / excel in the next week or so.


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## quiquik (Dec 13, 2013)

Ok, now this is just a thought so bare with me. The first thing that came to my mind when I looked at your tank was that the bba was growing on your rocks because of the very light color. I was thinking the rocks were so much brighter than the rest of the tank that they almost act as reflectors if you know what I'm getting at, very bright. So just like when the intensity of our lights are to high it causes algae, what do you think about the surface of the rocks being so bright that the bba grows there because of the brightness, and on your probes and tubing because they are closer to your light. I don't know,,, I hope I'm not sounding like a nut but just a thought.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

I don't think that would matter. Who knows though. I think it is because they are prettymuch directly under the light and the rest of the footprint of the tank is covered in plants.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Day 18

Have barely dosed my tank at all in over 2 full weeks now. Results are overall quite good. Growth on ludwigia red is still not ideal but it is not quite as bad as it used to be. Still seeing some crinkled / stunted new growth on a few of the stems. Did a trim to chop off these parts so hopefully healthier growth will emerge. This is really the only issue I am having

Ludwigia arcuata looks fantastic. Now that my nitrates are so low I am getting nice and red growth out of it. It is a nice orange color - looks great. Same with brevipes. I am getting some orange-ish growth out of the newest stems which looks great. Both these plants are far healthier than before and new growth looks perfect.

My blyxa is also getting red. I am getting that nice rust colored growth out of some of the blyxa. Looks very nice.

More red growth is most likely a reaction to low nitrate levels / better overall plant health


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## Julia Adkins (Aug 19, 2010)

This is so smart. When things are not going well to back off and reduce the amount of stuff put in the tank. Then wait and watch. The plants will tell you what they need. Increase dosing slowly as plants take time to respond (as long as 2-3 weeks). You have many red plants that will need small regular doses of iron to keep them red. Remember the 3 main numbers: NPK. Those are structural components along with calcium. The phosphates are sneaky and, though they are important, have a tendency to find their way into the tank in surreptitious ways such as excess fish food and impurities of other fertilizers. This can contribute to an algae bloom.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Julia Adkins said:


> This is so smart. When things are not going well to back off and reduce the amount of stuff put in the tank. Then wait and watch. The plants will tell you what they need. Increase dosing slowly as plants take time to respond (as long as 2-3 weeks). You have many red plants that will need small regular doses of iron to keep them red. Remember the 3 main numbers: NPK. Those are structural components along with calcium. The phosphates are sneaky and, though they are important, have a tendency to find their way into the tank in surreptitious ways such as excess fish food and impurities of other fertilizers. This can contribute to an algae bloom.


Yes and interestingly enough I am noticing that my phosphate levels are higher than my relative nitrate levels by quite a bit. I think I will stop dosing phosphates altogether and just continue dosing a bit of N + K

I am also thinking that my ludwigia red's growth problems are related to an imbalance of Ca with another element... (Mg, K, etc). I will eventually do some experimenting to see if I can solve that piece of the puzzle


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

DAY 18
- Nitrates ~5ppm / Phosphates ~1-2ppm
- Added 1/4 tsp KNO3, 1/4 tsp K2SO4

Noticed that phosphates seem to be in relative abundance. I have no way to measure K but I think adding more is better safe than sorry. Not going to dose any P until I see levels go down...
Today I dosed N+K


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Day 22

My ludwigia red is still showing terrible new growth. It is severely stunted / deformed and a very dark color. I am trying to figure out if this is an imbalance of K,Ca,Mg or something else... Arcuata and Brevipes still look fine. My tank has reasonable hardness levels so I am thinking the Ca/Mg balance is off. Maybe my water's hardness is entirely from Ca? I am not sure... So I have added back some Ca/Mg after water change...

Did another bit water change and added the following:
1/4 tsp KNO3, 1/16 tsp KH2PO4, 1/4 tsp K2SO4, 1/4 tsp MgSO4, 1 tsp CaSO4


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## jr125 (Mar 5, 2015)

Do you think the low nitrate to phosphate ratio is maybe causing any of the growth issues? Or just the lower nitrate level itself?


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

I doubt that simply having low nitrate levels are causing the issues I am seeing. It is probably a ratio thing like you say... Ideally if I can keep my nitrates super low I would be happy - the reds in my tank look fantastic right now. I am trying different things but need more time to diagnose the issue.

After adding back a decent amount of Ca / Mg I am starting to see somewhat improved results. I will report back when I can inspect my tank later...


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

klibs said:


> Day 22
> 
> My ludwigia red is still showing terrible new growth. It is severely stunted / deformed and a very dark color.


Sounds like boron deficiency or an induced boron deficiency.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> Sounds like boron deficiency or an induced boron deficiency.


So you think I should toss some CSM+B in there?

What would you recommend? I feel that if I dose EI levels (1/2 tsp) it is too much.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Make a solution where a 5 Ml dose adds something like .05 ppm (Fe), then you can start small and increase/decrease as necessary.

I wouldnt try to dose csmsb dry anyway, because the likelyhood that such a small scoop contains the right ratio of everything is probably slim.

http://rotalabutterfly.com/


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

klibs said:


> So you think I should toss some CSM+B in there?
> 
> What would you recommend? I feel that if I dose EI levels (1/2 tsp) it is too much.


I don't know anything but 1/2 tsp seems like a lot.

It's interesting that different sites/calculators come up with completely different numbers.

For instance, here is what I found for your 75 gallon.

This one says 3/16.
https://www.thenutrientcompany.com/aquarium/calculators/ei_calculator/

This one says 1/4.
EI light: for those less techy folks - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report

This one says between 3/8 & 1/2 (.42tsp).
Aquarium Nutrient Calculator

And the one you referenced says 1/2.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/647697-dry-dosing-nutrient-solution-recipes.html

So it's either 3/16, 1/4, 3/8 to 1/2, or 1/2 tsp??? Confusing? I use 3/8 in my 120, but I can't tell you why.

Is there there a commonly accepted calculator out there?

And by the way, I appreciate this thread and find it very interesting. Look forward to more updates.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

I will put in 1/8 tsp of CSM+B today. This should be enough to prevent a micro deficiency yet also a low enough amount to prevent toxicity. It has been at least 3 weeks since I dosed any micros really so there should basically be none in there...


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

klibs said:


> I will put in 1/8 tsp of CSM+B today. This should be enough to prevent a micro deficiency yet also a low enough amount to prevent toxicity. It has been at least 3 weeks since I dosed any micros really so there should basically be none in there...


I've been there and I wouldn't make this assumption. There's probably still a lot in the water column.

Plants can also store nutrients in their stems which can be used for later. If the nutrients are imbalanced, certain ones will run out faster than others. At a certain point, the excess of other nutrients can induce a deficiency. There's no way to easily tell if this is the case. 3 weeks is not a lot of time, especially if the tank has been OD'd by 50x or more.

I'd recommend diluting the traces in solution and then adding it to the tank.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> I've been there and I wouldn't make this assumption. There's probably still a lot in the water column.
> 
> Plants can also store nutrients in their stems which can be used for later. If the nutrients are imbalanced, certain ones will run out faster than others. At a certain point, the excess of other nutrients can induce a deficiency. There's no way to easily tell if this is the case. 3 weeks is not a lot of time, especially if the tank has been OD'd by 50x or more.
> 
> I'd recommend diluting the traces in solution and then adding it to the tank.


So are you saying to add an extremely small amount of CSM+B through use of making a solution?


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Yeah.


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

If there is no loss of chlorophyll in the new growth then it's likely not a trace deficiency.


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

I've been adding CSM+B with the amount equivalent to .02 to .03 ppm Boron to my 40B every week as my regular trace dosing. I'm still not 100% if it is enough but I don't see any issues. You can probably try this amount after a water change just to rule out micro deficiency. It does take a while for the plants to show how they react to a new water parameter. I think you need to wait 2 weeks to fully see how the plants like the nutrient levels if it's a huge change.


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

I'm currently at an _accumulated_ B concentration of 0.008 ppm. @Marcel G seems to be using Tropica just fine in a high light, high CO2 tank, which is an _accumulated_ B concentration of 0.01 ppm.

Not only should you wait some defined period before making conclusions, but you should also repeat the process that generated the results. If increased B seems to be having positive results (for instance), decrease B again and see if the same symptoms appear, then increase B and see if they disappear. When you can repeat the results, confidence levels skyrocket.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

You should take photos of the damage you are seeing in the new growth. A picture is worth a 1000 words.

Red plants become redder when they develop deficiencies or with higher light. Since your lighting hasn't changed that is a sign nutrients may need to be added. 

As a general rule it is more difficult to tell when a red plant is developing an iron deficiency than a green plant. The red pigment color masks the loss of green pigments. As the green pigments fade the plant appears redder. Also twisting new leaves may also be a sign of iron deficiency in some species.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

If red plants aren't red and all other variables are met, then what's most likely occurring is an induced iron deficiency. This can happen if Mn, Zn, or Cu is in excess.


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## keymastr (May 25, 2015)

I stopped dosing micros for about 3 weeks and was getting yellowing leafs on several plants. My Hygro looked almost sunburned. Started dosing a reduced amount and they have returned to normal. I do not have a Boron test for comparison though.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Here is a good example of what I mean. Red plants look more red when deficient in nutrients. This is a picture of some very nutrient deficient red root floaters (notice the dying old growth) next to a healthy non-deficient red root floater (the green one with bigger leaves). 

Deficiencies make plants look prettier, but are not the best long term solution to making plants more red.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Klibs whatever happened with this experiment?

I am curious as to where this fork in the road took you?

If you get time, I would enjoy seeing an update.


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