# Planted low tech goldfish tank



## BBradbury

*Your Goldfish Tank*

Good morning Jazz...

I don't think you're going to have much luck stocking the standard plants in a Goldfish tank. First, Goldfish aren't tropical fish and need cooler water. In fact, a tank heater isn't needed in a Goldfish tank.

Tropical plants come from warm climates, so the water will need to be warmer. I keep my planted tanks at around 76 degrees. That's going to be too warm for your Goldfish.

You'll really need to do some research into planted Goldfish tanks. I've never seen one of these, but that doesn't mean there aren't plants available for your kind of tank.

B


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## xjasminex

Morning Brad, 

Fancy goldfish prefer tempatures in the mid seventies. My tank is always at 74-75 degrees sometimes warmer in the summer, single tail goldfish are the ones that prefer cooler temps like 60-68ish. When your house temp gets so cold that the water in 55 I would think even a single tail wouldn't mind a heater. Sorry for not specifically stating I have fancies before. 

I have done loads of research into planted goldfish tanks and know for a fact that there are many successful ones, even on this site and others. Perhaps you haven't looked but I have. I have been keeping just goldfish for about four years and have really put a lot of time into the care of my fish food wise, care wise and water wise. 

Jasmine


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## Danno79

I'm no expert but here's my two cents any way. I have annubias, java fern/moss crypt undulata, and jungle vals in my goldfish tank. Been running for a year, they haven't eaten the plants yet. Also some people keep goldfish tanks warmer. Check out kokos gold fish forum.


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## xjasminex

The gab is also a great place for goldfish lovers. 
Dataguru is an awesome inspiration with her planted goldfish tanks and knowledge of all that is goldfish!

Also with goldfish eating or not eating plants, it depends on the goldfish. I also believe that if a goldfish gets the proper diet and is well fed they won't want to eat the plants. I feed my goldfish fresh kale everyday along with homemade gel food, and brine shrimp. Flake food is a treat only because I still have some left over and don't want to waste it. Goldfish are misunderstood fish that require a lot more care than one might think!


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## Seedreemer

It's so nice to see someone treating their goldfish as you do. I don't have any but love goldies and hate how their considered "throw-away" fish by a lot of people. 

Sorry, no help with the soil question though.


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## xjasminex

That's ok, I love my goldfish dearly. I like finding other Goldie lovers. So many are prejudice against them and don't know how to care for them. And I'll admit that in the beginning I didn't know much about them but they grew on me and now I can't live without them!


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## Danno79

As far as the ammonia spikes go why not just keep an eye on your parameters? Also you could consider using Prime. It helps eliminate ammonia.


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## Lutra

Another goldie admirer here. I used Prime when cycling the tank, I had no trouble at all with ammonia as a result.

What kind of a goldfish do you have?


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## xjasminex

I do use prime and just started using purigen. I guess im just over concerned that's all. I plan to take the fish out drain most of my water and add the soil, Instead of letting things establish first. That's what is most concerning to me. But I guess with everything that I have...a steady cycle, prime, purigen and plants I should be ok. And right at the moment I am under stocked, I only have two goldie's in there.

Thanks guys maybe all i needed was a little reassurance =]


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## BBradbury

xjasminex said:


> Morning Brad,
> 
> Fancy goldfish prefer tempatures in the mid seventies. My tank is always at 74-75 degrees sometimes warmer in the summer, single tail goldfish are the ones that prefer cooler temps like 60-68ish. When your house temp gets so cold that the water in 55 I would think even a single tail wouldn't mind a heater. Sorry for not specifically stating I have fancies before.
> 
> I have done loads of research into planted goldfish tanks and know for a fact that there are many successful ones, even on this site and others. Perhaps you haven't looked but I have. I have been keeping just goldfish for about four years and have really put a lot of time into the care of my fish food wise, care wise and water wise.
> 
> Jasmine


Awesome!

Didn't know goldfish would do well in warm water. My apologies. That makes a planted tank definitely doable if you have the temp in the mid 70s.

I learned something new today, thanks!

B


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## xjasminex

Your welcome, goldfish are very misunderstood fishies. Research is a must when deciding on keeping them!

Jasmine


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## galabar

I've got goldfish in a planted tank. I keep it about 75 and the fish seem just fine. You can see the tank in the video in my signature (it is the 20 gallon long on the bottom of the stand).


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## Lutra

xjasminex said:


> I guess im just over concerned that's all.


Then you and I have more things in common than goldfish. I'm a world-class worrier.:smile:


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## Mannie Bothans

Add me to the goldfish-keeping, planted-tanked, world-class worrier camp. New to planted tanks, new to goldfish, not new to being over-concerned.

I am assembling the things I'll need to have a 56G planted with 2 fancy goldfish. My problem is that we are getting new carpet and we'll have to move the carpet. I don't want to get the fish and then have to drain the tank. I'm slowly accumulating plants and just keeping them in buckets. I need to work hard not to kill the plants before the carpet is finished. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...ssion/152608-help-im-killing-my-plants-i.html

I just bought a bunch of packages and figured I would see what worked and what got destroyed. So far I have no where to put the following:

3 Crypt Nurii from bigstick120 
5 stems of Hygrophila pinnatifida portion from bigstick120 
6 large stems of Blyxa japnonica from bigstick120 
1 riccia bunch on cholla from supert 
2 algae balls from supert 
3 Bacopa madagascarienis from darkoon 
1 Rotala macrandra red needel from darkoon 
7 Rotala wallichii from darkoon
4 Nodes of Liliaeopsis Brasiliensis from darkoon 
2 Limnophila aromatica from darkoon 
1 Staurogyne repens from darkoon 
2 Rotala macrandra red from darkoon 
7 Rotala macrandra green from darkoon 
2 Rotala colorata from darkoon 
2 Hygrophila difformis from darkoon 
3 Nodes of Ranunculus inundatus from darkoon 
1 Syngonanthus sp. 'Belem' from darkoon 
2 Hygrophila sp. 'Bold' from darkoon 
6 Myriophyllum mattogrossense from darkoon
3 Pogostemon erectus from darkoon 
2 Ludwigia x lacustris from darkoon 
2 Limnophila mini from darkoon 
90 nodes of marsilea minuta from darkoon 
2 Polygonum Kawagoeanum from herns 
5 Ambulia from herns 
12 Rotala Singapore from herns 
2 Myrio Red from herns 
2 Ludwigia sp Rubin from herns 
3 Lindernia sp India from herns 
2 Limnohila Vietnam 'mini' from herns 
3 Ludwigia Lacustris from herns 
2 Ludwigia x Arcuata from herns 
Marsilea quadrifolia from Aquabid
5 Hygrophila difformis from LFS
2 Anubias nana from LFS
2 Java fern from LFS

I'm trying to sort it all into groups by texture and color and figure out what would be foreground midground and background (with always an eye toward what would look horrible when eaten by the fish).

I'm also concerned about ammonia spikes. I'll be using aquasoil.


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## xjasminex

Lutra- I have two fancy fantail goldfish right now, I plan on getting a third sometime soon, I'm thinking it's going to be an oranda. I worry about my goldfish, in fact I can't stop thinking about my fish and plants. I also have a female betta and a male betta each in a planted tank of their own and I think and worry about them too! Im pretty sure I'm addicted or obsessed...

Galabar- thanks for the input, us goldie lovers have to stick together! Beautiful tanks by the way! 

Mannie- that's a lot of plants!!! I'm sure you will have luck with something. Like I said earlier it depends on the goldfish personality whether they will eat the plants, it also depends on their diet, feeding a balanced diet meets their nutritional needs and therefore they might not be as inclined to munch on plants, also luring them away with vegetables probably helps to so keeping something in there on a clip is good. 

I plan on stocking myn tank with...

LEMNA MINOR (DUCKWEED) 
Anubias
CRYPTOCORYNE CRISPATULA VAR. BALANSAE
CRYPTOCORYNE WENDTII GREEN
CRYPTOCORYNE WENDTII RED
Amazon swords
Java fern
Jungle Val's 
Corkscrew Val's 
Dwarf sag

I'm going to be buying the med to large plants too so that should help!


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## Mannie Bothans

I love the look of the balansae and the corkscrew vals. I might have to do those at some point, too. 

Pardon my newbie ignorance, but could you explain a bit more about what "keeping something on a clip" means? I feel like I have such a steep learning curve, being new to fishkeeping and plants, too. 

In another thread, I asked what plants seem to work the best with goldfish (that might also thrive in my low light tank), and here is what I have heard from others on the forum thus far:




lauraleellbp said, "Some Crypts, Java fern, mosses, Anubias, and Vals would probably be good choices in terms of plants to try."



Lutra said "I have a fantail living with some plants under medium-low light. She munched the top off of an Echinodorus 'Vesuvius' but she hasn't touched the anubias or the Java ferns, I recommend them as a good place to start. I put in some Java moss and though she didn't eat it, she seemed offended by its presence -- at least she keeps tearing off any stem that gets more than an inch long."



sweet chariot said, "I have for goldfish in a 55, and some good plant choices I've found are vallisneria, echinodorus, sagittaria, java fern, and rotala."



defiesexistence said, "I'll add Cryptocorynes to the list, along with some lower light sword plants. Egeria densa is a very good grazing plant for them, and it outgrows their attentions, same with Rotala rotundifolia."



Coursair said, "Anubias, Java Ferns, and Bolbitis can be tied to rocks or Dwiftwood which will avoid the uprooting issue. If you want to try some Cryptocoryne you can either plant them in pots and hide pots with decor OR plant them and surround the stem with rocks or wood to keep the fish from uprooting them. I believe if you offer a varied diet with lots of fresh veggies; shelled green peas, zucchini, spinach, romaine, etc... Your plants have a better chance at survival."



squidsquiggle said, "I have a planted tank with a ryukin goldfish, and I'd recommend onion plants. My ryukin loves to swim through the tall leaves, but shows no interest in eating them. I'm not sure about uprooting, though, I have them behind a rock so he's never had a chance to get to the roots. Of all the plants I have, the only ones he messes with are the java moss (nibbling) and watersprite (uprooting - but then they work well as a floating plant, too). My anubias, wisteria, and java fern are all doing great and are completely uninteresting to my ryukin."



Jadelin said "Here is my experience with plants and goldfish:

Leave alone: crypts, java fern, swords, pennywort, Hygrophila diformis, hornwort (although some goldfish will eat hornwort)

Eats: java moss, fissidens, any floating plant (frogbit, duckweed, salvinia natans)

Picks at and makes ugly: Hygrophila polysperma, dwarf sag

I've also heard crinum and bolbitis can do well in goldfish tanks.

If I keep him well-supplied with floating plants from other tank he doesn't attack my Hygro as much. This is a comet."


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## xjasminex

Maybe them i'll chance some wisteria....you never know....silly goldfish!


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## Gold Finger

Hey Jazz, Mannie;

Boil your mud to avoid the ammonia spike. You should read the MINERALIZED TOP SOIL thread if your gonna use dirt. Maybe double check that pool filter sand makes a good cap for dirt. I love corkscrew vals too, and its what I'm gonna plant first. I was gonna use jungle vals but they would choke the tank fast. The corkscrews should grow slower. I'm not worried about nitrate too much with all my floaters, so I don't really want super fast growth. I have been reading so much lately about super low light tanks, and seeing some incredible pictures, so I"m not gonna put much light over my tank. Glodies don't like high light (It seems to me), and many plants do great in much lower light than people think. As for all your plants, Mannie, I think the ones which prefer your PH and hardness levels will do well. I don't know a lot about plants, in fact I'm a total neewb, but I can't see soft water plants doing well in a gold tank. And I don't think L. minor will last in a gold tank. I put in a mix of major and minor. They havent eaten any major, but have eaten a lot of the minor. PS I couldn't find frogbit locally, but hear it needs high nitrate levels to do well so I won't use it. I have a little Salvinia, and hear it is the fastest grower.


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## Lutra

This is excellent, I love all the information that's coming in here. More!


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## xjasminex

Thanks for the input goldfinger! 
I have read the mineralizing top soil article before, however right now it's getting cold and snowy where I live. And doing it in the garage is a def no. So right now I'm going to stick with just boiling it, how long would you recommend boiling for? When I move I will probably do it, then i will have the luxury of an empty tank and can do it right! I think i will be adding the clay though because I'm pretty sure I can find some in town as opposed to the dolomite and potash. 

Thanks for all your help!


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## defiesexistence

Just a question, here. Wouldn't frozen soil float?

Here's a list from my dirt tank: Any crypts, Swords, Aponogetons, Vallisneria, Rotala rotundifolia, Nymphoides aquatica, Java fern are perfect. Not quite bulletproof, but just about close are: Ceratopteris thalictroides, hardy mosses, Egeria densa, Bacopa. I'd like to try some onion plants and pennywort, also thinking most Nymphaea are fantastic... Pretty much anything too big for a mouth works.

Such an influx of goldfish people joining our guild; it's wonderful.

Also, temperatures don't matter, much. In higher temperatures, plants could grow faster, but my tank drops to 55* in winter, and all of those plants are fine, some just grow slowly, or not at all. But, with you keeping fancies, you don't have to worry a bit.


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## xjasminex

Good question =]
It probably will try, but I will be covering it with the pool filter sand (goldfinger I forgot to answer that yes it works well as a cap I have it in two other tanks as caps) and I wont fill the tank right away, I'm going to pour water just to the top of the sand to help melt it. Freezing it just helps me get it under the sand easier without making a huge mess!


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## defiesexistence

Ah, unfilled! Ahkay. Smarty-pants idea then :thumbsup: 

If it's unfilled, why not an all-out dirt tank?


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## xjasminex

Then I would have to take all the sand out and I'd prefer to do it when my tank is dry so the dirt doesn't stick to the sides...I will end up doing it when I move...but that's in like a year hopefully, for now this is what I'm going to do because I can't stop thinking about plants in my goldfish tank...I'm obsessed=]


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## defiesexistence

Once you go dirt, you never go back.

Soon you'll get to the point of: "Can I ask you a question?" *nod* "Why on EARTH do you keep goldfish with plants?" -LFS employee


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## xjasminex

Ha ha ha, goldfish are my favorite though!

Well I have gone dirt, I just posted a new thread in the nano section about my 5 g dirt tank and I just planted a 1.5 cube too....I guess I needed to start small before I went bigger.


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## defiesexistence

Starting small is always a good idea. Also gives an excuse for more tanks.


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## xjasminex

Yep, I will have to post decent pics of the 1.5 cube. I think it really pretty, I had a plan in mind so I think I did a good job. But I'm don't no more tanks....for me. My mom wants a dwarf puffer tank and I'm gonna work on that for her =]


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## Seedreemer

This is an interesting thread. I had no idea so many plants would work for goldfish.


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## Lutra

I'd like to know what water parameters everyone's working with. 

Mine: pH 8.0, KH 72 ppm, DH 11. I've been keeping goldfish and plants at about 68 degrees F (plus or minus 5). The tropical plants I've tried so far don't grow nearly as fast as they would at higher temperatures, but after sulking for a few weeks, they have started new growth. I imagine that some plants will be better with lower temperatures than others, I'm hoping to collect some data on that.

I'm moving the goldfish/plants to a larger tank soon, which will leave a 10g open for ... dirt. What kind of dirt do you all recommend? I'm thinking of putting in wild-type livebearers, Central or South American plants.


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## Newman

Here is my goldfish planted back when i started planted tanks 2 years ago:








its a 40 gallon and had one Oranda.

I think fancy goldfish will do fine in the low 70s for temps. plants will do good in that range too.

You need the pH to be high (no amazonia soil), GH/KH to be high, tiny amount of salt in the water is good(not required), and as you know you always need to be feeding them vegetables. it also helps curb their appetite for plants.

Goldfish will not allow you to have any foreground carpeting plants.


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## xjasminex

Thats a sweet tank, my fancies do great in 74 very active and healty looking. 
Thanks for sharing, are those lillies on the right? I like them alot!

Lutra- i will post my water parameters when i get home, i know my ph is high though!


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## Newman

yes those are common red water lilies. they are awesome. i still have some left after nearly two years, starting from bulbs. After about a year, they propagate by making new bulbs and thus new plants. kinda like potatoes lol!


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## xjasminex

Cool, are they simular to the bulbs you can buy at walmart?


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## Newman

yes i think those are the bulbs.


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## xjasminex

Good, I have recently been waiting for my Walmart to get more in. I have a bunch of the apogenton bulbs that I am tryin to get to sprout, but they have been out of the lillies. Any suggestions for when I do get my hands on them on how to help the grow better?


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## Newman

just put them in the water lol and wait about 3 weeks. secure floaters with gravel/rocks, make sure they get access to light so plant about 1/2 of the bulb into the substrate. also plant the pointy or smooth side down. the bulbs will sprout from the rough, cracked side. i dont remember much beyond that, i dealt with them a long time ago xD


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## xjasminex

Alright thanks!


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## mjbubbles

yay! I'm not alone in wanting a planted tank and goldfish!! I'm in the process of setting up a 55 for Fluffy my ryukin. I plan to put the plants in planters and do a kind of hybrid bare bottom/planted tank, but seeing the beautiful tank that Newman posted, I'm beginning to re-consider.

Anyway, thanks for the info and encouragement that it can be done!

Oh! The plants I have that he doesn't eat: anubius, Amazon fern, onion plant. He munches on the Parvoflora sword when the leaves are young, and he totally destroyed an amazon sword.

I will try Vals in the new tank and see how they do. I'm going to want some taller plants in there. And someone is sending me some crypts to try out.

I didn't realize that the temp of the water might impact plant growth...my tank is at 68+ or -, so that may be why things grow pretty slowly.

Cheers!
mj


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## xjasminex

Alright, here's my tank spec and parameters!
- 55 gallons
- pool filter sand 
- one whisper EX45 and one whisper EX70
- jäger 150 watt heater set 74ish
- two fancy goldfish and one albino cory cat (yes, I know they are schooling, I would get more but I don't want my fishies to eat them. Mine is just about two inches and is a very happy healthy cory and has lived with them for three years)
- no live plants yet...
- ph is usually high in the 8.2 range but today I did a 50% water change and it's 7.4....I'm going to have to keep an eye on this find out why it's so low..I set my water out a day or two ahead of time and heat and aerate it to raise the ph. Does purigen cause ph to drop?
- ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrates stay in the 10-20 ppm range
- water changes are 50% every week
-KH took nine drops so it should be 161.1....(first time using my kit)
-GH took nine drops too so that should be 161.1 too...I feel like this is wrong....

Well that's all that I could think of...can some one tell me if I did the KH and the GH right....i don't think I did... I mean the conversion part...not not the drop of water part, lol.


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## Gold Finger

xjasminex said:


> Thanks for the input goldfinger!
> I have read the mineralizing top soil article before, however right now it's getting cold and snowy where I live. And doing it in the garage is a def no. So right now I'm going to stick with just boiling it, how long would you recommend boiling for? When I move I will probably do it, then i will have the luxury of an empty tank and can do it right! I think i will be adding the clay though because I'm pretty sure I can find some in town as opposed to the dolomite and potash.
> 
> Thanks for all your help!


I did 20 min. at a full boil w/ 20 min. to warm up, and 20 to cool down and had no spike beyond what my previously cycled sponge filter dealt with silently. You would have to go longer if you used rich soil. I would not use rich soil anyway. It is problematic. I used topsoil from beneath a bush. The sun could not reach the ground there so there was no grass. No grass meant that the soil was naturally mineralized by the wet-dry bacterial process before I ever picked it up.

PS don't add clay if your soil is already high in clay.


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## Gold Finger

I have a problem. I am using floating plants to consume excess nitrate so that I can plant less heavily and use slower growers and still have my parameters be good. The problem is that I have an overflow and that it won't skim properly with the floaters in there. In fact, I now realize that floating plants will trap bio film on the surface no matter what filter style I use. should I accept the film, bypass the overflow, switch to a siphon and do gas exchange in my sump? Should I abandon the floaters or use a different type?:confused1:


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## xjasminex

Sorry goldfinger, I have no clue about sumps, maybe you could corral the plants in one area so they are not all over...would that help?


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## Lutra

Sorry, Gold Finger, I'm no help on the sump issue either. I'm still stuck on the picture Newman posted two days ago, trying to figure out what all the plants in the tank are.


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## Gold Finger

*exciting first for newbie*

Went looking for corkscrew vals today, but only found mini twisters, which I bought and planted. They grow slowly and not over 8 inches tall, so they won't do much in the way of absorbing N, but maybe they will make a good foreground plant. FIRST PLANT EVER PLANTED!:hihi:


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## Gold Finger

Tank: 70 Gallon, filled to 65 gallon height 
Filtration: Overflow into in 5 gallon sump containing Large "Hydro Sponge"
Circulation: $17 hagan mini elite submersible 
Substrate:flourite black sand over sand over crushed oyster shell over dirt
PH: >8.0
GH: Very high 
KH: ?
Temp: room
Flora: (I tossed the floaters, and stuck my water rooted terrestrial plants in my sump for now, but will remove them from the system completely), Which leaves:
A few Vallisnaria A. "mini twister"
Fauna: 1 moor, 1 really odd genetically challenged telescope, whatever hitched in on my plants which I didn't dip.
Light: Almost nothing yet, will probably put one or two cheap shop lights on top.

I have given up testing water parameters with strips on principle.
I have a million kits but "Just say NO" to water testing!


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## Gold Finger

Have watched my fish for the past hour since planting the mini vals and they have not even tried to taste them which surprised me.


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## xjasminex

YAY!
Be careful with untreated/QT plants, i got leeches in my 5 gallon by just sticking them in! 
You should post pics too!


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## Gold Finger

Leeches!? yuck! Am weary of damaging or killing plants with dip.. Oh, and the only camera I have is so crap there's no point in posting pics.


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## Gold Finger

If you want to see what I mean about my cell phone camera click on "view user tanks" under my username. It's pretty sad.


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## Lutra

Hey Gold Finger, I was looking over your substrate description and realized that's a real bartender's nightmare kind of layering of strata you've got there. (Have you ever seen those multilayered drinks I'm referring to?) How long did it take you to do all that?


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## Gold Finger

Seen em? I drank millions of em when I was younger! The soil took me a few hours to prepare, the sand took about 20 minutes to rinse, i didn't rinse the fluorite, and putting it all in the tank took about 20 minutes.


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## Lutra

Gold Finger said:


> The soil took me a few hours to prepare, the sand took about 20 minutes to rinse, i didn't rinse the fluorite, and putting it all in the tank took about 20 minutes.


More efficient than me, then. It would have taken me days.

Oh, and Jasmine -- leeches? Really? How big were they? The only leeches I've ever seen were in my sister's yard on the coast of North Carolina.


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## xjasminex

Yes, leeches, i took one out of the tank one day and it stuck to my finger....it was small like and inch long and not very big, but it was definitely a leech. 
You don't have to treat your plants but its always good to place them in a clear container for a few days and see what comes about...i thought i just had to worry about snails...guess i was wrong!


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## Lutra

So getting back to the original question about ammonia and soil, Jasmine, have you boiled your soil yet?


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## xjasminex

Not yet, im going to aquire the light first then go from there. I have however had teh soil soaking for a week now though.

I also just got diana walsteads book on friday and have been reading it like crazy so i can get pointers on what to do before i do it!


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## xjasminex

Bought my plants today, heres the list:

2 ea. Ludwigia Natans (Ludwigia Repens) 
3 ea. Cryptocoryne Crispatula var. Balansae 
11 ea. Mix n' Match Vallisneria (red jungle val and corkscrew val)
3 ea. Echinodorus Bleheri (Amazon Sword) MED 
1 ea. Cryptocoryne Wendtii Red lg clump 
1 ea. Cryptocoryne Wendtii Green lg clump 
2 ea. Ceratopteris Thalictroides ( Water Sprite ) 
1 ea. Cryptocoryne Retrospiralis 

I will give a try with these and see how it goes!
I will be planning to buy the light on thursday then all i gotta do is boil the dirt, freeze it and put it in the tank and plant it! Oh and i need to finish sanding down my driftwood, clean and boil the rocks i found too...i hope thats all i gotta do...lol.


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## Gold Finger

lol is right! There's always more to do.

I got my light today. 64 watts of cheapo T8 shoplight ($17 CAN. at walmart). Loooow tech, baby! So far, I only have Mini twister vals in the foreground and will almost certainly be adding some kind of ludwigia and crypt and maybe an anubias or two. So... How low can you go? I got: 64 watts, no heat, no fertz, nearly no circulation, less than 1x turnover, no water changes, and a hydro sponge filter which I aim to never clean... heh heh heh :red_mouth


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## xjasminex

Nice, it will be cool to see how your tank turns out, you should start a journal, like a real one =] Document everything you do, since this very very low tech approach is so new...maybe it could shed some light on this kind of set up for others and what works best...maybe others can learn from your mishaps...

How far is the light from your substrate?

Im reading Diana walstads book and thats kinda how she does it, although i think she has heat...but no water movement and low light..and dirt.


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## Gold Finger

I want zero water changes. To get that you have to have a lot of plant growth. To get that with low light you can use vals (good at 1wpg). One problem is tank space. You can loose a lot of swimming room to the amount of plants you need. Again my solution is related to the (jungle) vals. besides cutting the tops to export nitrogen, I will pull whole leaves off of the biggest plants to free up room in the tank. Maybe there will be only one leaf left after a thourough plucking.


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## xjasminex

Have you thought about elodea.....hortwort too sucks up ammonia. 
Also you could plant plants in the top of the tank. I just bought pothos on clearance at walmart, trimmed the roots, and put them in a filter media bag so the goldies dont munch them at all and have them in the tank, i dont think they need much light either...the pot said shade.

Also, i have thought about these before, not for the goldie tank but maybe for a ten gallon..
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Tank-Terrace-Aquarium-Shelf-System/17631346

You might be able to plant plants that like shade below and higher light plants in pots or something on top if it will hold...just an idea


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## Gold Finger

Diana goes for slow growth and stocks delicate little fish, whereas I want fast growth to keep up with the golds' waste production, but at the same low light level. My shoplight is directly on thr im of a 24" tall tank and the water level is 3" down from the rim. The substrate surface is 2" off the bottom, so 22" from the light. What many people don't know is that light propagates very well in _clear _water, and that depth is not as much of an issue as most believe. Anyway, lots of low tekkies use 1 wpg of T12 shoplight over 55 gallon tanks and grow vals like wildfire. (I use WPG to sound low tech and tick people off)


----------



## Gold Finger

Hornwort was my first choice, but I read that it will shed a billion little stringy leaves if it gets stressed. I don't want to come home to that. I don't really understand how you replace the bottom part of elodia yet (it gets gross looking at the bottom, right), or know how bushy it gets. It sounds high maintainance but I am very open to it. I don't really understand it. As for terrestrial plants, I have a bunch water rooted and sitting in my sump. Will post a crappy cell phone pis in a sec.


----------



## xjasminex

Alright, cant wait!


----------



## Gold Finger

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/pHosting/f/7559_lilysc.jpg


----------



## xjasminex

Thats cool dataguru has something simular, does it work well for you?


----------



## Gold Finger

They are sucking up the N until the vals get established, then I'll remove them from the system and put them in a vase. They are a ready to go filter.


----------



## Gold Finger

Work great, but eat too much hardness and out compete underwater plants which have to deal with much less oxygen and carbon dioxide (somethin' Tom Barr pointed out to me). That's why I will retire them from the system soon. That and they are a needless complication in a system I am trying to keep simple.


----------



## xjasminex

Nice, thats why i wanted to try the pothos in the tank....anything to help reduce nitrates would be great, on my five gallon i dont have to do water changes and i know i will never get to that point with my goldfish tank but if i could do water changes every two weeks i would be happy instead of every week...plus it can only enhance the life and health of my fish...im really excited to plant it!


----------



## Gold Finger

Cut off the soil roots first. Let it grow water roots. Peace lilys work best for me in low light.


----------



## xjasminex

Alright, thanks, do you know of anything else that works like the pothos or peace lilys?


----------



## Gold Finger

I tried "lucky bamboo", but it grows slowly and in bursts, and wandering jew, which grows fast but may have toxicity problems. There are others, but I haven't tried them myself.


----------



## xjasminex

I have two huge lucky bamboo, probably about twenty five inches tall in a 1.5 g vase im trying to use to grow out extra plants in, they are really cool, maybe i will dig them up and put them in the tank, i think they are growing kinda fast they are directly planted into the mgops.


----------



## Gold Finger

I think you could do it if you planted heavily and didn't add that third fish (though I understand that that might be too big of a sacrifice to make). and what's "mgops"?


----------



## Gold Finger

If they are in soil they would have to be water rooted too. Cut the stem in the middle of a segment between the leaf nodes and stick the top (the end with leaves) in nitrogen rich (tank) water. Seal the cut end of the rooted plant with wax and it will grow a new leaf crown. You get two plants. The stem will never grow below the crown, only above it.


----------



## xjasminex

I guess we will see when i plant it all up, i also plan to get a BN pleco too to help with the algae that's already growing....mgops is miracle grow organic potting soil =] magical stuff!

Maybe i will wait on the third goldie and just get the pleco after i plant it then let this acclimate and settle down, that might help!


----------



## Gold Finger

Oh yes. Miracle Grow. Of course.


----------



## Gold Finger

By the way, I have a moor and a puny weird telescope. What do you have?


----------



## xjasminex

I have two fantails...

Heres my tank..










Heres my fish...


















The pics of the fish are from my old thirty gallon thats why its sooo dirty!


----------



## xjasminex

Im gonna get a dark background of some sort too when i get done planting...maybe really dark blue....? Im not sure, but i hate the cords...


----------



## Gold Finger

Nice fish. Are those bubbles I see? I regret not having a bubbler anymore. My fish loved playing in it.


----------



## Gold Finger

*New Plant*

Hey,I just pulled some of this out of a ditch and put it in my tank (after a little research). It's called Mare's Tail.


----------



## Lutra

That's a nice-looking plant. It doesn't grow in my area, can you tell me a little bit about it?


----------



## Gold Finger

Well, not a lot. From what I have read it can survive freezing temperatures but not warm ones over 76. It is true aquatic but can grow emerged. It can handle hard to moderately soft water, and medium to high PH. And it can grow well in very low light. It just might turn out to be a good substitute for egeria or cabomba in my tank. I am worried about either of those dumping a million leaves into my tank.


----------



## Gold Finger

Single stem. Propogation by runners from a sub soil rhizome or sexually from M & F flowers. It seems like a great fit for a Low Tech Goldfish tank. We'll see


----------



## Gold Finger

Found out something else about Mare's Tail....


----------



## Gold Finger

It's delicious!










They turned it into green poo.


----------



## Lutra

:hihi: :hihi: :hihi:! :icon_roll 

Oh, those goldies have gourmet palates!


----------



## Gold Finger

Yeah... sometimes I'd like to throw 'em in a hot pan with some butter and see how they taste.:flick: Just kiddin'. I actually want to have some plants in there they will eat. I guess vals don't taste good. I bet some plants develop bad tastes as a defense mechanism.

I will probably fill my tank with all kinds of plants, but I'd like to know what you other goldfish prefer. What are your favorites?

I know I'll be adding Jungle Vals and Hygro


----------



## xjasminex

Ha ha ha, I think my Goldie's are picky...they really like kale...they eat some spinach and I just tried to feed them mustard greens and that was a no go....


----------



## defiesexistence

The past two weeks, I've been using Waldo as an experiment... He loves sweet potato, likes most greens, peas, red grapes, carrots, he doesn't care much for apple or spinach, but he'll eat it. 

Friday, I mortar-and-pestled grapes, carrot, and a large pinch pellet food, froze it, and it's a hit.

Hope I expanded your golds' menu, Jasmine :icon_wink


----------



## xjasminex

Thanks, my Goldie's get a homemade gel food similarly to yours, it's got beet greens, mustard greens, collard greens, mackerel, pumpkin, kale and a few other ingredients. That's their main diet. Kale makes my tank and room smell after using it everyday that's why I'm try to branch out. Ill try sweet potato too, I keep picking up different kinds of leafy greens at the store I'll eventually find something!


----------



## defiesexistence

New level of respect for you! That sounds like a very tasty, very healthy gel food!

Ever try swiss chard?


----------



## Mannie Bothans

Curious, how do turn it into a gel?


----------



## xjasminex

Gelatin =]


----------



## Mannie Bothans

Ah. So you just mash it up and add gelatin? Cool. 

(I haven't gotten the fish yet, but I now have water and a few plants in the tank. I'm trying to plan for enough veggies in their diets to keep them from wanting to eat _all_ of the plants.)


----------



## xjasminex

Yea, the gab is where I got the recipes, check it out I know you a member, I saw you! Dataguru has compiled a ton of recipes that are nutritionally balanced just for goldiefishies!


----------



## Gold Finger

defiesexistence said:


> The past two weeks, I've been using Waldo as an experiment... He loves sweet potato, likes most greens, peas, red grapes, carrots, he doesn't care much for apple or spinach, but he'll eat it.
> 
> Friday, I mortar-and-pestled grapes, carrot, and a large pinch pellet food, froze it, and it's a hit.
> 
> Hope I expanded your golds' menu, Jasmine :icon_wink


SWEET POTATO!?!?!? You...are a genius.


----------



## Gold Finger

My (goldfish tank) plant shopping list:

Jungle Vals
Hygro
Pennywort
water violet
Aponogeton ulvaceus
already have mini twisters

Your plant shopping list?


----------



## Gold Finger

Lutra said:


> Hey Gold Finger, I was looking over your substrate description and realized that's a real bartender's nightmare kind of layering of strata you've got there. (Have you ever seen those multilayered drinks I'm referring to?) How long did it take you to do all that?


Thinking about adding a dark gravel cap to my substrate to stop the fish sifting the FBS all day. It might be bad for them and it definitely ends up as dust on my plants. That'd be 6 layers


----------



## xjasminex

Goldfinger, just be careful, if you substrate is too thick that isn't good.

My plant list is as follows:

Ludwigia Natans (Ludwigia Repens)
Cryptocoryne Crispatula var. Balansae
Corkscrew and red jungle Vallisneria
Echinodorus Bleheri (Amazon Sword) MED
Cryptocoryne Wendtii Red lg clump
Cryptocoryne Wendtii Green lg clump
Ceratopteris Thalictroides ( Water Sprite )
Cryptocoryne Retrospiralis
Dwarf Sag
Pennywort
Anubias nana
Red tiger lotus
Amazon frogbit


----------



## sublimescorpio

xjasminex said:


> Thanks, my Goldie's get a homemade gel food similarly to yours, it's got beet greens, mustard greens, collard greens, mackerel, pumpkin, kale and a few other ingredients. That's their main diet. Kale makes my tank and room smell after using it everyday that's why I'm try to branch out. Ill try sweet potato too, I keep picking up different kinds of leafy greens at the store I'll eventually find something!


Yummy jello..lol....I've been lurking around this thread for awhile, like the gel idea...just started learning about fancy goldfish.. I was going to to take down my 30L tank after I moved my fish to my 75gal..till I saw Bubbles Jiggles my black and white telescope (the only named fish I currently have)  ...never thought I'd own a fancy, but (s)hes the best, too cute and friendly..


----------



## Gold Finger

Lookin' over your list Jaz. 

Maybe you're right about the extra layer. I think gravel is a poor choice for a top anyway. Poop can rot under it than get unearthed a week or two later. Them turning over the sand is probably a good thing.


----------



## Gold Finger

sublimescorpio said:


> Yummy jello..lol....I've been lurking around this thread for awhile, like the gel idea...just started learning about fancy goldfish.. I was going to to take down my 30L tank after I moved my fish to my 75gal..till I saw Bubbles Jiggles my black and white telescope (the only named fish I currently have)  ...never thought I'd own a fancy, but (s)hes the best, too cute and friendly..


Don't forget that gelatin is protein. Don't feed 'em too much.


----------



## Gold Finger

Hey scorpio. You found some people here who really care about (and know about) their fish. By the way, do you have pics of your tank(s)?


----------



## Gold Finger

Love the red jungle val! Do you know if they will stay red in low light?


----------



## sublimescorpio

Gold Finger said:


> Don't forget that gelatin is protein. Don't feed 'em too much.


She has been eating emerald entree and loving it...I always do alot of research, but I hate to say it but she was such an impulse buy...most of the other fish eat meaty diets, so I am for to stock up on so plant based foods for some variation..I am going to start bleaching some of the veggie/fruits listed in this thread too.. Thanks for having Bubbles back :icon_smil ...any one Kens food from the forum??


----------



## Gold Finger

That's a top notch food.


----------



## Gold Finger

I mean emerald entree, not Ken's. I don't know anything about Ken's.


----------



## Gold Finger

xjasminex said:


> Goldfinger, just be careful, if you substrate is too thick that isn't good.
> 
> My plant list is as follows:
> 
> Ludwigia Natans (Ludwigia Repens)
> Cryptocoryne Crispatula var. Balansae
> Corkscrew and red jungle Vallisneria
> Echinodorus Bleheri (Amazon Sword) MED
> Cryptocoryne Wendtii Red lg clump
> Cryptocoryne Wendtii Green lg clump
> Ceratopteris Thalictroides ( Water Sprite )
> Cryptocoryne Retrospiralis
> Dwarf Sag
> Pennywort
> Anubias nana
> Red tiger lotus
> Amazon frogbit


Love the Red Tiger Lotus too. Again, Do you know if it will stay red in low light?


----------



## xjasminex

Yea, poop will rot and create problems, just finished Diana walstads book and she says substrate that's like 4mm, that really tiny....i think mines is bigger, i have pool filter sand, its a bigger courser sand, its sink pretty much immediately when it gets kicked up or sucked up by the fish. 

With the gelatin, the recipe is nutritionally balanced, there's like four parts veggie per protein, and i added extra veggies too.

And i have no clue if the red jungle val will stay red in low light but i guess we wil find out in a while!


----------



## Gold Finger

Sublime, is that black and white telescope of yours in fact a panda moor by any chance? I love those things! If I make another impulse buy it could easily be a panda moor.


----------



## xjasminex

Oh and i hear kens is good stuff, i asked about it once on GAB and they said it looked good but no one had used it there, New Life Spectrum is supposed to be good too, i just started feeding it to my bettas and they like it!

And same with the tiger lotus, no cue if it will stay red in the low light.


----------



## Gold Finger

That's a good balance. I have a habit of spitting out facts just in case someone might benefit from it. It's not that I assumed sublimescorpio didn't know something. Badapest is the capitol of Hungary... oh, there I go again.:hihi:


----------



## xjasminex

Ha ha, hey we can all learn a few new things, it doesn't hurt!


----------



## Gold Finger

If anything will push me into higher light it will be red plants. I want to stick to low tech though so yeah, we'll see.


----------



## xjasminex

Yea, i say on a different post that hoppy said that the reflector on the light that i bought are good and might put me into a lower medium light, im hoping thats true!


----------



## Gold Finger

I may put a second 64w shoplight on my 70gal. someday. I think that would put me in low medium. I am new at all this and don't know what all of the results of that would be so yeah, We'll see.


----------



## xjasminex

I use hoppys chart, now it doesnt talk about five gallons, so i estimated the light, and i prefer to use one t8 15 light in the five gallon, i have some medium plants in there and now they are doing much better with that light.


----------



## sublimescorpio

Gold Finger said:


> Hey scorpio. You found some people here who really care about (and know about) their fish. By the way, do you have pics of your tank(s)?


Yep...My 75gal pygmy cory, var. loach, and terta tank, few other guys in there..totally re-doing, goods soo bad right now, I've been wanting to post them but I am embarrassed, the tanks here are soo nice.. plants and driftwood to come and might change the red gravel too, believe it or not lol

My 30L Bubbles (goldfish, shes not black really I guess its a grey...like she has black under a layer of white if that makes any senses and blueish/pearly a little), corys (8) and oto (6) tank..The 30L is planted half highknee, which wanted to get them in the water I am getting lots of plants this week..I think its overstocked for the plants in there now, so I am going to move some of the oto and corys to the 75gal soon.. cause I want a friend for her..

Her tail is a little ripped at the moment


----------



## xjasminex

Goldfish are naturally social! They like friends!

30L is kinda small for goldfish, they need 10-15 gallons for the first goldfish and ten gallons for every goldfish there after, they can be fast growing if given the right conditions. Large enough tank, good food, decent water temp, and good water parameters. 

They have a large bioload too thats why they need more gallons. Something to do with their never ending intestines...lol...something like that. And they prefer long to high, so rather than a twenty high, get a twenty long.


----------



## Gold Finger

HAH! he looks just like my little telescope.

If you have enough room, clean water, etc. you have a good chance of golds enjoying one another's company, but you never know. I picked a runty fish to go in with my bigger fish so she wouldn't see it as a threat and pick on it. 10 years ago wife saved 12 feeder goldfish from the table top bowls used as displays at a wedding when she learned they were just for decoration and doomed to burial by toilet. She brought them home and, knowing nothing about goldfish, put them all in a bowl. One of them killed all the rest and in doing so saved his own life. She named him sammy and kept him alive in that bowl for 8 years. Sammy would probably have killed any new addition. He wasn't born murderous, he was made that way. Anyway, they seem to like company most of the time. You get the occasional bad egg. What you want to consider is gender and the ramifications of breeding. A female trapped in a tank with males will be nearly killed when she comes into season.


----------



## sublimescorpio

xjasminex said:


> Goldfish are naturally social! They like friends!
> 
> 30L is kinda small for goldfish, they need 10-15 gallons for the first goldfish and ten gallons for every goldfish there after, they can be fast growing if given the right conditions. Large enough tank, good food, decent water temp, and good water parameters.
> 
> They have a large bioload too thats why they need more gallons. Something to do with their never ending intestines...lol...something like that. And they prefer long to high, so rather than a twenty high, get a twenty long.


The filter for my 30L is for a 60gal looks like the corys with be moved to the 75gal..If I keep 2-3 oto in the tank for algae squad I guess one more goldie will be ok? Would it be better to get her a friend and let her have more space to grow into? What color and type is she? 

Thanks guys!...hope you do not mind me asking these questions, Gold Finger say the word and I'll edit them out.. all the goldie knowledge is pack in this thread :biggrin:


----------



## Gold Finger




----------



## sublimescorpio

Gold Finger said:


>


hehe too cute! They do look alot alike, you have good taste in fish- that does not sound right somehow :confused1:


----------



## Gold Finger

What is there like 4 litres in a gallon? I can't remember. I second Jasmine about the tank size. In fact I would move them into bigger tanks as they grow. My bigger fish is around five inches long now and there is no way she would be remotely comfortable in a 30 gallon any more. Small tanks stunt them (nitrates do so even worse). The stunting eventually kills them because some of the organs do not stunt but grow to normal size within the small fish. Low nitrates and lots of room and good food will produce fish from 5 to 12+ inches long depending on the type. I hope my fish will be nearly twice as big in a few years. Then I can make a 100gal tank. HA HA HA!:icon_twis


----------



## Gold Finger

Yours is a short tail butterfly tail telescope (mottled fishy colored i guess). Telescope is a catch all category. The eyes are further categorized by the shape of the orb and or lens but I can't tell from the picture.


----------



## sublimescorpio

oohh, I just love her, I am but not planning on having another larger tank anytime soon, how long till shes too big? (last question) I am so mad at myself for not researching now..I did a quick look on my phone for tank size, guess it was not right..there is so much bad goldie info out there..


----------



## Gold Finger

The kind of "telescopes" you and I have are mostly a genetic crap shoot. Not like show fish. Lovely though. Wanna see some supermodel "telescopes" and learn about 'em? Google a web site called "EXOTIC GOLDFISH" Its Japanese or chinese. These fish are all about Asia. They have carefully and obsessively custom bread them there for about two thousand years. No western fish could hope to compare.


----------



## Gold Finger

Unlike all the other freshwater fish people keep, goldfish (and Koi) were not made by nature, but by us. They are like fancy dog breeds. That's why goldfish people are different. These fish are truly pets.


----------



## Gold Finger

She's ok for now. It's a small breed. Just keep the water clean.


----------



## sublimescorpio

Thanks Gold Finger, I will!


----------



## xjasminex

She is very pretty! I have no clue about breeds, I focused mostly on fancy goldfish in general when I did my research, nothing individual.

Yep, test your water every few days and preform water changes as necessary for now, keep a thought in the back of your mind that she will eventually need a bigger home!


----------



## Lutra

Hi, Sublime, it looks as though everyone had a great chat while I was offline last night! I might have missed it, but how long have you had Bubbles?


----------



## sublimescorpio

Back of mind, check..  now all I have to do is win the lotto..



Lutra said:


> Hi, Sublime, it looks as though everyone had a great chat while I was offline last night! I might have missed it, but how long have you had Bubbles?


Hi and yes'r!

Only a few days now....I was never a goldies person really. I was at the pet store picking up can'o'caterpillar for my pygmy opossum and I saw her from across the store..Walked away, walked back, repeat, repeat, repeat, I kept thinking the 30L is still running no need to take it down :help: ..So much personality and the pictures do not do her justice..Even when I am in the tank moving plants she swim to my hand and brushes it and comes to the front of the tank when she sees I am there, that is if shes not too focused on her favorite pass time-- cleaning the gravel, you could eat off that floor lol


----------



## Lutra

Nothing is as much fun as gravel -- except chasing toasted wheat germ through the tank as it slowly settles downward.


----------



## Lutra

Wait a minute. I want to hear more about this pygmy opossum!


----------



## Gold Finger

Got a question for y'all. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/low-tech-forum/154873-dirt-tank-question-confused.html#post1596546


----------



## sublimescorpio

Lutra said:


> Wait a minute. I want to hear more about this pygmy opossum!


...I do not want to totally hijack xjasminex thread (though I have ask my share of questions, it is like a private chat room, goldie lovers only here.. hehe.. However there are some pictures of her here, my post is #73..If you have any questions I'd be happy to answer them there:biggrin:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/l...how-us-your-dog-other-pets-5.html#post1594351


....That is a great question Gold Finger, I think you might be on to someone with the substrate, I would think your right..


----------



## Gold Finger

sublimescorpio said:


> ...I do not want to totally hijack Glod Fingers thread (though I have ask my share of questions, it is like a private chat room, goldie lovers only here.. hehe.. However there are some pictures of her here, my post is #73..If you have any questions I'd be happy to answer them there:biggrin:
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/l...how-us-your-dog-other-pets-5.html#post1594351
> 
> 
> ....That is a great question Gold Finger, I think you might be on to someone with the substrate, I would think your right..


Uhh... This is Jasmine's thread. Though I understand the confusion. I am afraid I may have already hijacked the heck out of it. I have been thinking of it as piggybacking though. Hope you don't mind Jasmine :icon_lol: Have been feeling a little guilty. :icon_redf


----------



## Lutra

A very good question, Mr. Finger. (Or may I call you Gold? :icon_wink)

Let me mull that over for about a day and meanwhile see what the folks with more aquatic plants experience have to say. I know a fair amount about how terrestrial plants work, but that's probably another kettle of fish. 

Aw, hecky durn it all, I need to learn more about the metabolic processes of water plants.


----------



## Gold Finger

You may call me Gold  Oh, and I am pretty sure that there is no end to what can be learned.


----------



## Lutra

Gold Finger said:


> Uhh... This is Jasmine's thread. Though I understand the confusion. I am afraid I may have already hijacked the heck out of it. I have been thinking of it as piggybacking though. Hope you don't mind Jasmine :icon_lol: Have been feeling a little guilty. :icon_redf


I'm at least as guilty as you are.


----------



## Gold Finger

I am really still circling around her original question about dirt ammonia spikes. Admittedly I am asking my own questions, but that's a good process for a forum, right?


----------



## Gold Finger

The plants will use the ammonia in the soil and that may be a bad thing if a person is trying to keep nitrates low.


----------



## xjasminex

Stealing my thread ehh..?
I dont care, this is all benefiting all of us!
So goldfinger, i think if you plant your plants ahead of time and give them some time to acclimate and grow, then add your fish, i think that maybe you wouldn't have any problems. Maybe have a cycled filter on hand to for when you add them and test the water every day or more than once a day. Floaters will do you good, i know you mentioned you didnt want them, but they will help...alot. I know diana walstad said you dont need filtration but in the case of goldfish i think you might need some...and that would help out the floating plants and film that may collect.


----------



## xjasminex

Also 70 gallons is a lot and two goldfish isnt in a tank that size, if you start off with smaller fish i bet your tank would grow to be able to keep up with the bioload of the goldfish, and if it cant then just do a water change......i dont think you will have to do it often or even alot of water.


----------



## Gold Finger

I'm sure you are right. It's all good advice Jaz. May I call you Jaz? I started with a mature filter and my terrestrial plant sump is picking up the nitrate slack from my slow start to planting, so I am ok for now. It looks like I may be moving in a few months. This tank wont move easily. It is making me rethink my substrate choice. I am thinking about using plant pots in an otherwise bare bottomed tank. That way I could take the tank down and set it up if I end up moving again. I can think of a few other benefits too, like rearranging and swapping easily. It may not look as nice as a full substrate tank, though.


----------



## Gold Finger

By the way, Jasmine. Diana W. originally wrote no filtration, but has since stated that mechanical filtration of the water column is a good thing in her system.

She and Tom B. are like mom and dad to us (in my mind:icon_roll). They are divorced and living apart, but love us kids dearly. (I am trying to be silly:hihi They are both a little set in their ways, but if we listen to what each has to say and do a little thinking of our own, we can solve any problem:biggrin:.


----------



## xjasminex

Ha ha, very much so! Especially with goldfish we have to think outside the box!


----------



## Gold Finger

Yeah, outside the glass box. Planted/goldfish is a bit of a new horizon within the hobby. There are experts, of course, but for most a lot of questions remain. It's fun to figure out and in my own mind, at least, we are pioneers!


----------



## xjasminex

That's for sure, I'm still waiting on my plants to ship! 
If they don't ship today I'm going to email them!


----------



## Lutra

Hi Jasmine, we haven't been online at the same time for a while. Everything you and Gold said last night makes sense to me, I agree with the reasoning.

I'm still in the process of moving Bella to the 40g (I had to wait until I could get heavy-duty shims to put under the aquarium, the terrazzo it's to sit on turned out _not to be flat_ :angryfire). My plan is to have a very shallow layer of gravel with some larger river rocks. I have a few taller-growing Anubias species on order -- afzellii, congensis, and lanceolata -- that I'll attach to the rocks. I also got a few of hydrophyte's tank planters from his Riparium Supply to put in, too. I was going to try a couple of odd plants out in them, but he says he shipped them with cryptocorynes already established and did I mind? 

Gosh no! I'll see what Bella does to them, if she thinks they're as delicious as Gold's Mare Tail, I'll rescue them and put them elsewhere.


----------



## sublimescorpio

Lutra said:


> ...... I was going to try a couple of odd plants out in them, but he says he shipped them with cryptocorynes already established and did I mind?
> 
> Gosh no! I'll see what Bella does to them, if she thinks they're as delicious as Gold's Mare Tail, I'll rescue them and put them elsewhere.


If it makes you feel any better Bubbles does not touch the crypt in her tank...


----------



## Lutra

sublimescorpio said:


> If it makes you feel any better Bubbles does not touch the crypt in her tank...


Actually, Scorpio -- or Sublime, or Lime, or however we should abbreviate your username -- it does!


----------



## Gold Finger

Too cool about the free crypts, and ironic about the planters. I wasn't aware of Hydrophyte's planters, but had designed something just like them in my head last night. The fact that I'll be moving has made me rethink my planted 70gal. It will have to be tilted to get it up the stairs so the substrate I worked so hard on will have to be taken out (ugh). Anyway, it got me thinking I should use planters, which I will do. It will be movable and rearrangeable. I think I will bury them in fine black sand so It will look like a full substrate bottom and the poop will sit on top; not sink in. This design would have one and a half inch deep pots with open tops sitting in two inches of black sand. If I decide I like the look of planters on a bare bottom, though, my planters would be exactly like Hydrophyte's... and yours. P.S Crypts are widely consisdered goldfish safe. I just found out that Ambulia works sometimes too. I like ambulia's looks, but had ruled it out as "salad". Bad assumption.


----------



## Lutra

Gold Finger said:


> If I decide I like the look of planters on a bare bottom, though, my planters would be exactly like Hydrophyte's... and yours.


I've been toying with the idea of leaving part of the tank bottom bare and having a little "river" of gravel running across it, with the planters and large rocks placed strategically nearby. What do you think? Will the goldfish freak out at seeing the mirror image from below?


----------



## Gold Finger

I used to run a bare bottom. It freaked some fish out at first, but they got used to it.


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## Gold Finger

Now I use a black substrate because I believe it makes them the most comfortable.


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## Lutra

I've been using a dark reddish brown pea gravel so far. I take it you tried out other substrate colors -- can you elaborate on which ones worked/didn't work for the fish?


----------



## Gold Finger

Lutra said:


> I've been toying with the idea of leaving part of the tank bottom bare and having a little "river" of gravel running across it, with the planters and large rocks placed strategically nearby. What do you think? Will the goldfish freak out at seeing the mirror image from below?


I may do the planters in a bare bottom. I loved how clean my tank used to be. I heated it from below with a light bulb which caused the poop to float up and get sucked into the filter so I didn't ever accumulate it in the main tank. If I do this, I may hide the pots with big rocks, which Is a similar idea to yours. You couldn't use small gravel because the fish would scatter it.


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## Gold Finger

Anything darkish is good. The lighter the bottom, the more skittish the fish. They seem to feel exposed.


----------



## Lutra

I was thinking of putting the gravel in between a couple of (more or less parallel) flexible strips of transparent plastic to keep it from getting thrown all around. But maybe it's not a practical idea.


----------



## Gold Finger

Mostly I have never really loved the look of pots sitting in a stark bare tank, but I saw one with big rocks hiding the pots and liked it.


----------



## Lutra

Boy you type fast.


----------



## Gold Finger

You should see my teenage daughter text. She can text without looking at her phone as fast as I can talk! Freaky!


----------



## Lutra

How's your investigation of water column/root feeders progressing, Gold?


----------



## Gold Finger

One or two members are suggesting that I can keep nitrates down even with dirt in my substrate. I think I will keep the dirt in the pots and see for myself.


----------



## Lutra

Ah. Pragmatic experimentalism.


----------



## Gold Finger

Am a staunch advocate.


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## Gold Finger

Maybe Jasmine will follow us on the potted plant train.


----------



## xjasminex

Im not a big fan of potted plants in my tank. I did entertain making my own planters and planing plants in those but changed my mind...i will however be making my own riparium planters to grow plants out of my tank...


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## Gold Finger

Not even buried out of sight in the substrate?


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## xjasminex

That i dont mind i guess...lol.


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## Lutra

Jasmine, what sort of materials will you be using to make your planters?


----------



## defiesexistence

*This is a response to multiple pages...*

Pots on a tank bottom is pretty high-maintenance. You'll be vacuuming constantly if you want 'clean'. Goldfish also enjoy mouthing substrate, so you will be picking up every pebble, and sticking back in the pot they moved it from. Non-mouthable rocks, like river rocks, could be put on top of your gravel/sand though.

As far as light substrates and skittishness... Many fish will change colors as close to the substrate as they can. But with goldfish, they aren't usually shy, unless they are sick. I _think _this is because carp don't have much in the way of natural predators. I like to think of them as water elephants, herbivorous, large, bumbling, and not many predators are large enough to scare them, unless they are young. At least in my local waterways, they get about 2/3 as large as most predators.

Most goldfish from the LFS have never ever seen a plant in their life. I believe in breaking them in slowly, with plants you don't mind losing, and feeding them lots of veggies. When I got Waldo, I threw in Rotala, and java fern. The jerk ate all the rotala leaves, and mostly decimated the fern. Java fern is supposed to taste bad!

Jasmine, if you cap that dirt with something, so it isn't in contact with the water column, then you shouldn't have to worry much about ammonia spikes. Water changes are your backup, if it does. How have your new plants survived the onslaught, by the way?


----------



## xjasminex

Lutra- for the planters i imagined using the ziplock small round tupperware containers. Cutting a big hole in the lid and attaching screen to it to cover the hole then cutting a hole in the screen for the plant itself. Then you can easily make the hole in the screen bigger when the plants grow and it still allows water in the planter without letting particles out, to kinda help prevent anerobic patches in the soil i would put in them. 

Defiesexitence- I havent planted the plants that i have now, i want to do the planting all in one shot and get it done. I will be capping with pool filter sand, its what i have in the tank now and it works great for goldies!


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## Gold Finger

By the way Lutra, some people advise against gravel with goldfish because the food and or poop can get down in there and rot then get eaten later causing the fish problems. Here's a link to a discussion I am having which is kinda related. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/f...sing-without-water-changes-2.html#post1599089


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## xjasminex

Started boiling my dirt today, I bought tin foil 13x9 cake pans to freeze it in. Now if only my plants would ship out!

By the way Lutra, it's rare but some goldfish choke on gravel....that's why I switched to the pool filter sand, just to be safe.


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## Lutra

Defiesexistence, I guess I'll drop the bare-bottom look, it doesn't sound too feasible based on your input. Your theory that goldfish aren't shy fish because they have few predators is interesting and I hadn't considered that idea. I've been assuming that goldfish aren't shy because they've been bred by humans for generations on end and the friendly ones were more likely to be selected for breeding.



Gold Finger said:


> By the way Lutra, some people advise against gravel with goldfish because the food and or poop can get down in there and rot then get eaten later causing the fish problems. Here's a link to a discussion I am having which is kinda related. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/f...sing-without-water-changes-2.html#post1599089


Thanks for that link Gold, I'll start following that thread because the issues concern me too. I do vacuum the gravel once a week for precisely the reasons you mention; the mulm goes onto some outside plants, and they've never looked better. If you've found a way to keep all those nutrients in the tank without harming the fish, that would be genius!

I do worry about the gravel/choking thing you mentioned, Jasmine, though as Bella gets bigger the gravel looks smaller and smaller compared to her throat. She does spend much of the day rooting around in the gravel looking for lost bits of food and it seems to me she enjoys the activity. Some websites advocate not using gravel with goldfish, and other sites think gravel is practically compulsory. I noticed when I started researching goldfish care that the information out there is frequently self-contradictory. A lot of it is just plain silly. I'm back to Gold Finger's pragmatic experimentalism. I'm going to have to see for myself.


----------



## mjbubbles

Just wanted to add my 2 cents to this very interesting goldfish/plants thread.

I'm planning a barebottom 55 gallon tank with 2 planters and a couple of pots.
The planters are 10 inch clay saucers with eco complete in them, heavily planted with goldfish safe plants: Onion plants, jungle vals, anubias nana, anubias lanceolata, Amazon fern, and e. parvaflora. (So far, he has not destroyed the swords - just nibbled when they first arrived. The vals is an experiment.)

When he was small (before I took the gravel out), Fluffy liked to root through it, but I hope he won't make too much of a mess digging through the planters.:fish1:

That's the plan, anyway. If it's too messy and I can't stand it, I may give up on the planters and just have eco complete throughout the tank.

Thanks for the discussion above. I've found it really timely and useful. I look forward to updates from all of you about your planted goldfish tanks.

The eco complete arrived this morning. I can hardly wait to go home and set it up!!

edit: did I say Fluffy is a ryukin?


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## waterfaller1

13 pages and no tank pics yet! I use the planters from Hydrophyte. He has some big jumbo ones that are great for aponogetons, swords..etc.


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## xjasminex

Mjbubbles- thanks for sharing! keep us updated on your experiences! 

Lutra- choking on gravel is rare. But it does happen, and now i love love love the pool filter sand! It was a just to be safe thing and it was cheaper than buying gravel too!


----------



## xjasminex

Im waiting on my plants to get here, they havent shipped yet....so soon as they get to my house they will be planted!!!


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## mjbubbles

Alright waterfallr - here's a very-much-in-progress shot of the 55. Imagine two planters, black gravel, and more plants...plus a more interesting focal point - which is a big Amazon fern in a pot.









Then imagine Fluffy the goldfish swimming around in it:








This is his current 20 gallon tank.

Sorry for the lousy photo quality!


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## waterfaller1

Jasmine, Can't wait to see what you do! MJ, looking good!
Here are the latest pics of mine. I need to take some new ones. I found a white Oranda, yellow wen, with a red heart on the wen.:icon_mrgr
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/t...lon-tahitian-moon-sand-added.html#post1536885


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## xjasminex

That sounds sooo cute!
I really cant wait to get a bigger tank someday and have a big goldfish famlily like yours!!


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## Lutra

Gorgeous tank, Waterfaller. Breathtaking, really. And the fish look great.

Could you give us a list of the plants you've used, with any comments about which ones have been nibbled on and which ones weren't? I'm not experienced enough to ID all of them at a glance. (And if you were to post recent pictures, I wouldn't complain either.)


Edit: I just noticed that in one of the photos there are _six _goldfish staring directly at the camera. Great shot!


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## xjasminex

Hey Lutra!
Heres some specs on her tank!
Its in the low tech show and tell thread, thats how i found her!

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/low-tech-forum/99729-low-tech-tank-show-tell-low-32.html


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## ShawneeRiver

This is a great discussion, and I see some friends from Kokos!

May I ask, are mosses working for anyone? I'd really like driftwood with moss, but I'm not sure which to try. Which is easiest?


----------



## Gold Finger

I have a little moss in my tank. The fish are not eating it so I guess that makes it a success. I am a newb and neither know which moss I have nor have any experience with other mosses. They are all supposed to do well in low light, so they are probably all winners, except for star moss which is a (scam) non-aquatic moss.


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## Gold Finger

Edit: I just noticed that in one of the photos there are _six _goldfish staring directly at the camera. Great shot![/QUOTE]
Someone must have been holding some fish food :icon_wink


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## Gold Finger

Welcome newcomers! Nice fish. Nice tanks.

Hey lutra; Back when I used gravel I came home a number of times to find one of my fish suffering from "rock in mouth disease". I have never had one die from it but they sure hate having the gravel pried out of their mouthes.


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## Gold Finger

Once again I have underestimated the amount of waste these little buggers create. I decided to cut back on cleaning my hydro sponge filter because of the plants/soil/Walstad method, etc. Unfortunately I sort of forgot that plants are only going to consume liquid waste. My filter must have had 5 ounces of mulm as thick as tar in it. Long story short: no amount of plants in the world will reduce the need for mechanical filtration. I estimate my fish, in my setup, would create 1 inch of soil in about 2 to 3 years. Amazing.


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## Gold Finger

A poster on APC says he has goldfish with Asian Ambulia (Limnophila sessiliflora). Have any of you tried it? I am hoping to use it and/or water violet along with vals as my main nitrate eaters. I prefer the look to elodea, etc.


----------



## Lutra

I've been busy trying to get my new 40g tank ready for Goldfish Moving Day (when's that? Oh, when I feel brave enough!) and have missed a lot of good posts. Jasmine, thanks for the link to Waterfaller's tank info.

Gold Finger: I've never tried any Limnophila at all, let me know how it goes. 

As far as the ongoing "Gravel: Good or Evil?" discussion is concerned, I probably won't replace the gravel in my tanks for a few months yet since my (laughably tiny) disposable income already got disposed on the aforementioned 40g tank. That, and a plant or two to put in it....

Do goldfish also swallow sand? Since they pick up and gum gravel I can't believe that they wouldn't also do that with sand. And it goes right through them without ill effect? What's the ideal particle size?


----------



## Gold Finger

Lutra: I have never heard of problems with sand of any grain size, though some man made "sand" might be too sharp. The only bad size is a rock the fish can barely fit into its mouth.

Jasmin: How are your parameters? Mine are groovy. Have algae from planting too lightly, but expected it.


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## xjasminex

Goldfinger- never tried that plant yet...my parameters are good, PH of 7.5 to 8, ammonia is 0, nitrite 0 and nitrates are from 20-40 when it's time to do a water change, I do have algae, it's from where the light hits the side of the tank and down, lol, my nerite likes it though. 

Lutra- so far I have had no problems with the sand. I watch them when they pick and they spit it out. I havent seen any weird poop or anything.


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## Gold Finger

Nerite huh? I have never had snails. Seen some cool lookin' ones though. I'll have to look into it. At first I thought all snails bred into colonies of thousands, but I guess there are some which don't multiply too fast, huh? Are they hard to keep? Do you need algae? I was planning on getting rid of my algae in time.


----------



## Gold Finger

Looking into snails. They do breed like mad. Thought the trick might be to keep only one snail. Nope. They will "autofertilize". Keen on a ramshorn though.


----------



## Gold Finger

Might like a big ol' yella apple snail the size of an egg, but they say golfish eat their eyestalks which kills them 

Got it! Nerites can't breed without salt in the water, right?


----------



## xjasminex

Nerite snails only reproduce in brackish water, they may lay eggs but they don't hatch. They're algae eating machines, I love mine! I also have. Few pond snails, snails are an essential part in a walstad style tank


----------



## Gold Finger

Right. I am not doing Walstad, per se. I just think they are cool. I wouldn't want snails whose population would rise unchecked, but the nerite seems cool. Have you had it with the fancies long?


----------



## Lutra

Those "batik nerites" are pretty. If only they weren't _snails_.


----------



## Gold Finger

Oh yes. Very nice. Not snails? you not keen on snails?


----------



## Lutra

Oh. Well. :icon_redf Along about a hundred years ago someone got the bright idea to try to grow escargot in California, and the snails loved it so much they took over the state. Every gardener here has fought a war with them. If God is a snail I'm in trouble.


----------



## Lutra

Actually I like the marine snails, I try to think of them as an entirely different category of mollusc.


----------



## Gold Finger

xjasminex said:


> Nerite snails only reproduce in brackish water, they may lay eggs but they don't hatch. They're algae eating machines, I love mine! I also have. Few pond snails, snails are an essential part in a walstad style tank


 Hmmm... am getting mixed opinions about snails from the interweb. Big surprise! Do you think an apple snail would be ok in an unheated fancy goldfish aquarium?


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## Lutra

I had one in my tub outside for about three years. Water temperature dropped in winter to around 50F.


----------



## Gold Finger

Lutra said:


> Oh. Well. :icon_redf Along about a hundred years ago someone got the bright idea to try to grow escargot in California, and the snails loved it so much they took over the state. Every gardener here has fought a war with them. If God is a snail I'm in trouble.


If God is a snail, he's in trouble too!


----------



## Gold Finger

How about goldfish attacking their eyestalks?


----------



## Lutra

This is the first I've ever heard of it. Anyone else know about this?


----------



## Gold Finger

I bet it depends on the size and hunger of the fish. Like plecos. They are fine with goldfish until they reach a certain size, then... munch! It's one of those thing that doesn't happen... until it does.


----------



## Lutra

Jasmine, how many snails ... I think I'm looking for a SPG, snails per gallon, ratio. How many SPGs to keep the algae down?


----------



## Gold Finger

xjasminex said:


> Nerite snails only reproduce in brackish water, they may lay eggs but they don't hatch. They're algae eating machines, I love mine! I also have. Few pond snails, snails are an essential part in a walstad style tank


 Wait. You are not doing a walstad with your 55 golfish are you?


----------



## Gold Finger

SPG (snails per gallon) is a dated rule of thumb which is misleading at best. Now we use MAR (Mollusk Active Ratio). :icon_bigg Just trying to be funny.


----------



## Lutra

Lol


----------



## ShawneeRiver

Lutra, I have CaribSea Tahitian Moon Sand, and I think the fish do swallow it. Some of the poop looks blackish since I switched to the sand a few months ago. The only problem I see is that the poop now seems heavier. Either the sand they are eating or just the sand on the tank floor is mixing with the waste and weighing it down. It doesn't go up in the vacuum like it should.


----------



## Lutra

Ah. Thanks for the information, Shawnee. There are so many options for substrate out there it's going to take me some time to sort through it all.

Did you ever get a satisfactory answer about mosses? The only one I've tried is Java Moss, and it didn't work with my fantail. She didn't eat it, but she tore it to pieces.


----------



## xjasminex

Goldfinger- yes and no, its more of a modified walstead type tank, I thinks walstad type tank is going to be tough with goldfish. I am going to be laying down dirt then pool filter sand ontop and then planting the plants in it. Goldfish create a major amount of waste as we all know, this is a blessing and a curse....lol....there will be plenty of good stuff in the water for the plants! But there will also be extras...water changes with goldfish in a tank are always going to have to be done, but how often and how much is what I'm looking for. If I can successfully reduce my water charges to once every three weeks or even two I would consider myself successful. Also goldfish will always need the floor vacumed they have big poops so it's also just a mater of how often to vacuum too. There will be filtration I just have to find the happy medium between plants and my biological filtration in my filter, I'm hoping to be able to take a filter off my tank when things get established too! 
Personally I like snails, I think they are nifty and an essential part of dirt tanks! I have one nerite and one pond snail in my goldfish tank and they are happy campers, my fish leave them alone and they have all of their tenticle feeler things too!


Lutra- if you got a large enough grain of sand they might not swallow it, Tahitian moon sands grain size averages 0.1 - 0.3 mm that's pretty small. I had tried the moonlight sand in my betta tank and it's really fine, I personally wouldn't use it for goldfish. My pool filter sands grain size is 45 - 55mm, much bigger! It sinks immediately when stirred up too which is what I wanted. 

Shawneeriver- I think you might have luck with marimo ball moss which is actually algae, you can break the ball up and glue/tie it to the wood. Look it up it's really pretty. Although it depends on the goldfish, like Lutra said they picked hers apart for fun, the marimo ball moss is more dense and won't come apart like the java moss will. I'd try a test run first before our cover the whole thing though!


----------



## waterfaller1

Many of us are using Tahitian moon sand with goldfish without issue. It's gravel you have to be careful of, as it can get stuck in their throat. They just sift the sand out, or hover and pull the food up off of it. Tahitian moon sand does not come up as easy as regular sand.I have never noticed it in my goldfish' waste. Maybe it's the food you are feeding, causing them to ingest the sand along with it? Tahitian moon sand is not actually sand, it's fine gravel.
Snails put out a whole lot more waste than they do you any justice with algae control. Algae should be controlled by proper lighting, good up to date bulbs,time schedule,proper fert levels for plants, keeping waste levels down, weekly water changes, and the use of a mag float or similar for the glass.


----------



## defiesexistence

Goldfish do sometimes swallow sand, intentionally or accidentally. It's a good thing if it's a soft sand, like Tahitian Moon, because it's like a gentle abrasive and supposedly scrubs out their very short intestinal tract (with feeding vegetables, fiber does the same thing).

I introduced some acute bladder snails (Physella acuta) with some (bleach-dipped) plants. Worst mistake. To do some manual control, I would crush them against the glass, and the fish would go into a feeding frenzy. The problem with snails is that they can be an intermediate host to certain parasites that cannot complete their life cycle without them.

I really like the saucer look!! Reminds me of a good bonsai.

Also, I didn't consider that golds have been bred and tamed for centuries results in their boldness. I wouldn't say that the friendliest ones were bred, but I wasn't existing then  A few different factors are at work there


----------



## ShawneeRiver

It could be the food combo, Carole. They get sinking pellets and peas usually. I'm not saying that the sand is a problem -- I love it. And they seem OK with it.


----------



## defiesexistence

:hihi: I'm no Carole, but our avatars do look alike 

I think the fish enjoy having sand more than gravel, as they have more missiles per mouthful to aim at the others' heads.


----------



## Gold Finger

Lutra: I agree that any swallowed sand would not be a bad thing, but mine don't swallow any (enough to show in their waste) of my very fine unrinsed FBS.

Jasmine, thats what I thought. Just like my tank. I honestly don't think we will be able to remove our filters ever, but I bet one change a month plus semi regular, quick, small vacs will do fine if the plant load is high enough. Between the bac filter and the plant/soil denitrification, I am very impressed with my results so far. The mass of semi solid wast that accumulates in my filter, however, is astounding. Walstad now reccomends a mech filter and that's with "normal" fish, which ours are definitely not.


----------



## Gold Finger

Lutra: For every substrate there are those who are against it, including sand. I have never heard of any evidence of fish health impacted by sand, only speculation. Gravel, however has known problems; choking, re consumption of rotting food, and waste accumulation. Still, some people prefer it. I like sand because the waste sits right on top where I can remove it all quickly.

Jasmine: That's what I thought. Just like mine, except my cap is finer. Walstad _now_ reccomends a mechanical filter be used, and thats with "normal" fish. I don't believe we could ever get rid of ours with goldfish if we wanted low maintainance. My sponge pulls out copious quantities of semi solid waste. If heavily planted, The plants denitrifying combined with the bacs nitrifying will chew through the liquid wastes. I bet we will have no problem with once a month changes plus regular small vacs.


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## xjasminex

My filters are three stage, although I don't use carbon but instead I use purigen with homemade filter pads. I have two, a whisper ex 45 and an ex 70, I'd like to get rid of one, preferably the big one to cut down on electricity


----------



## Lutra

Yet one more question about sand. Has anybody _ever_ had trouble with a goldfish getting sand in its gills?


----------



## Gold Finger

Lutra said:


> Yet one more question about sand. Has anybody _ever_ had trouble with a goldfish getting sand in its gills?


Not me. I think they know better than to pass it through the gills. That would be like you or me drinking water into our lungs. They just suck it and spit it out. If it were covered in algae, I bet they would swallow it, which I imagine would be harmless.


----------



## Gold Finger

xjasminex said:


> My filters are three stage, although I don't use carbon but instead I use purigen with homemade filter pads. I have two, a whisper ex 45 and an ex 70, I'd like to get rid of one, preferably the big one to cut down on electricity


I never used power filters. Do you have a bio media which you don't replace? I will add more filtration to my sump (a 5 gallon pail) by adding a filter sock. Once a week or so I will switch it out with a fresh one and throw the clogged one in the wash with a little bleach. That should take less time than cleaning my hydro sponge. Oh, and are you planning to get rid of as much filter bac colony as possible?


----------



## xjasminex

Yes, the filter pad holds bacteria and there's a plastic thing that Bacteria lives on that I don't replace. Plants and bacteria compete for ammonia, so if I have enough plant growth to take over the ammonia build up I can remove a filter. 

And my goldfish haven't had an issue with sandin their gills either.


----------



## xjasminex

Just an update guys, still no plants, I will be notifying PayPal today to get my money back and buy them else where...


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## Lutra

What a downer. Sorry to hear it.


----------



## xjasminex

Yea, they have been slow in the past but they always responded to my emails. They haven't responded to any of my emails concerning this orders.


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## xjasminex

Soo, apparently my plant site sent emails and i never got them...i guess they will ship monday.....


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## defiesexistence

Hey, here's to hoping it turns out! :thumbsup:


----------



## Lutra

xjasminex said:


> Soo, apparently my plant site sent emails and i never got them...i guess they will ship monday.....


What an unbelievable coincidence.

But, as defiesexistence says, let's hope it turns out all right.


----------



## xjasminex

I know!!
Well its gonna take a whole day to plant so i hope it comes on the day i think its going to come on!


----------



## Lutra

A day to plant what you ordered, and another day to plant all the freebies they should send you to make up for it all...

BTW, I moved Bella to her new 40g tank this morning! She's been looking at all of the new plants and exploring everything with great interest. No good pictures yet, and of course the infamous gravel is still the substrate, but still. When I find soft round large sand in a dark grey/brown shade, I'll go for it. Uh, when I have money and find soft round large sand....


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## xjasminex

Ha ha, best place to look is pool stores in spring, pool filter sand is cheap and comes in big bags, just look around early enough before it all sells out, i know it comes in different colors depending on what brand you buy.


----------



## Lutra

Well, we certainly have swimming pools in Southern California! Not in my yard, though. Water costs a fortune here. Just the aquarium water changes put a noticeable spike in the bill that wasn't there before I took up fishkeeping. I'll start looking around at the pond/pool supply stores for sand, though. Thanks for the idea.


----------



## xjasminex

Well thats handy, i started looking for the sand in august, and here in new york the swimming pool stuff was pretty much gone by then!


----------



## Hilde

Lutra said:


> When I find soft round large sand in a dark grey/brown shade, I'll go for it..


Perhaps river sand, which is brown would work. I got a big bag at a landscaper co for $3. It is my favorite for it only needs to be sifted and rinsed 1x. No cloudiness as with pool filter sand or play sand. Also it doesn't get dirty as quick as the white sand. After a year the top has some thick black patches. Easy to pick up.


----------



## Lutra

Good idea, Hilde! I'll check it out. By the way, some of the posts on sand I've read mention a tendency for the stuff to compact over time. Have you noticed this to be the case?


----------



## Hilde

Lutra said:


> Some of the posts on sand I've read mention a tendency for the stuff to compact over time. Have you noticed this to be the case?


I put reptile coconut bark on the bottom to prevent that from happening. Originally thought it would add Co2. Found though that is only good to add circulation to the roots. Indoor plants grow great with something similar. In a 10 gallon tank which I didn't I have noticed some areas that have become black. It doesn't have many plant in it though. Thus uncertain as to the cause of the black sand.


----------



## snausage

mjbubbles said:


> Alright waterfallr - here's a very-much-in-progress shot of the 55. Imagine two planters, black gravel, and more plants...plus a more interesting focal point - which is a big Amazon fern in a pot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then imagine Fluffy the goldfish swimming around in it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is his current 20 gallon tank.
> 
> Sorry for the lousy photo quality!


Nice ryukin!!!!!!

What are you feeding him? Probably gonna get a lot larger once he's transfered into the 55.


----------



## Gold Finger

Lutra said:


> Good idea, Hilde! I'll check it out. By the way, some of the posts on sand I've read mention a tendency for the stuff to compact over time. Have you noticed this to be the case?


I have never used sand as a substrate by itself so Jasmine is your authority here, but I'll add my two cents worth anyway. I use sand as a cap right now, which is a whole different thing than using it as a substrate. Sand is a whole different thing from gravel, and one type of sand is kind of a whole different thing from another kind of sand. I think PFS (pool filter sand) is a good bet for you because you can kind of vacuum it like you do with your gravel now, so it isn't a completely different approach. PFS is kind of heavy so it does not get sucked up the vac tube. My sand is lighter and would get sucked right out. I have to pass the vac near the surface at about a quarter inch off the surface, but my finer sand keeps the mulm from getting down into the sand. I don't need to deep vac it. I don't think PFS compacts because of its even grain size and because you can vac it. You may even find you don't have to loose as much of that pricey California water when you vac the PFS verses gravel. If so, it would pay for itself! Why do I feel like I am selling sand?


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## Gold Finger

"Fluffy"... That's funny.


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## xjasminex

I havent noticed any thing like that, but since i just have the sand and no dirt yet it gets moved around in the tank when i do water changes and move things.


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## Lutra

Gold Finger said:


> Why do I feel like I am selling sand?


Because I'm asking every difficult question I can think of about how things might go wrong _before_ going ahead with the switch to sand. Remember me saying that I was a world-class worrier?

But now I'm looking at the gravel and thinking Bella's already big enough to get a fair percentage of the rocks into her mouth, so I'm worrying in that direction, too! Meanwhile my efforts via the Internet to locate a local source of PFS or river sand have had dismal results. I may -- gasp -- have to pick up the telephone, call around and actually ask.


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## xjasminex

Ohhh, noo! 
Here's and update, plants are to ship on Monday, I should have them hopefully Wednesday....I am going today after work to get some glass cut so I can DIY modify my hood on my tank to accommodate the new light. It's a plastic hood with the glass that just fits a normal one bulb strip light and that is a tad to small for the new light I have. I'm going to use a dremmel and cut the hood right behind the doors so I can keep the doors that open and then I'm getting the glass cut to fit from the doors to the back of the tank with some room for the filters and stuff. Hopefully it all works out!


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## Lutra

Hey, Jas, that sounds impressive. Will you be posting photos plus description, maybe in the DIY section? I'd like to see how you do it.


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## xjasminex

Alright, I will do it just for you! 
I also have to finish sanding my drift wood too, I'm goldfish proofing it so they don't hurt themselves! The dremmel saved me hours doing that!


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## Lutra

I have a sycamore branch soaking in a Home Depot bucket that I'd like to put into the goldfish tank when I decide it's safe. Whenever that is, exactly. It's been in a month or so but shows almost no tannins in the water. What kind of driftwood are you using?


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## xjasminex

It's zoo med mopani wood, it's really heavy and sinks but has lots of tannins.


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## Lutra

Do you know what (if any) effect the tannins have on goldfish?


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## xjasminex

No clue, I wouldn't think it wod hurt them though. I will google when I'm not on my phone!


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## xjasminex

I don't think that tannins will hurt the fish, maybe if you don't remove them and they build up they may cause problems like inhibit growth but water changes, charcoal or purigen should fix that.


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## Gold Finger

I have a beautiful piece of mopani and have soaked it for months on end, but have never used it. The stuff never seems to run out of tannin. I also don't think there is any danger to the fish but was turned off by the discoloration, the water softening effect, and the fact that it will eventually rot and release ammonia.


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## Gold Finger

I was leery of sand too, and asked a million questions. Please ask whatever you want. I don't think I would ever go back to gravel.


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## Lutra

Gold Finger said:


> I was leery of sand too, and asked a million questions. Please ask whatever you want. I don't think I would ever go back to gravel.


Thanks, Gold. Knowing you to be an inveterate questioner like myself, your endorsement says a lot in itself.


----------



## Gold Finger

Lutra said:


> Thanks, Gold. Knowing you to be an inveterate questioner like myself, your endorsement says a lot in itself.


Oh. Thank you. For a moment there I thought you called me an "invertebrate questioner":icon_smil


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## xjasminex

Ha ha, nice, I went with sand because dataguru from GAB has used it and recommended it, she is like an encyclopedia on goldfish so I trust her. 

By the way....plants shipped today. I hope I get them tomorrow, but I'll probably get them Wednesday....one can only hope though.


----------



## Gold Finger

Am excited for you. Post pics when your planted!


----------



## xjasminex

Will do! And I'm going to post pics of my modified hood I'm going to make for Lutra too!


----------



## Gold Finger

I know. I'm looking forward to those too. "Modding" is another level of hobby-ism. Gotta get in there and get yer hands dirty! Hope you don't mind the term "hobbyist", I don't, but call myself a "fish geek". I like Tom Barr's term "Aquarist". Can't call myself that with a straight face though. Somewhere deep down I am always a little surprised when My fish don't float up dead.


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## xjasminex

Yea, Im picking up the glass tomorrow so I'll be doing that tomorrow, I'm really excited but worried that something isn't going to work out with the planting or the hood or just something in general, lol.


----------



## Gold Finger

All part of the fun:hihi:


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## xjasminex

Ha ha, yes, I guess so!


----------



## Lutra

I have to say I'm impressed by Jasmine's hood modification project. I hope those plants have finally made their way to you by the time you read this, Jasmine! 

Meanwhile, the Grand Sand Investigation continues. Today I went to Home Depot and looked at play sand, concrete sand, medium grade construction sand, paver sand.....

"The 45 lb. Tan Small Pebble Paver Leveling Sand is a multipurpose material ideal for use as proper leveling for stability, flower bed edging and to facilitate drainage. The sand is a small pebble material that is tan in color and comes in a 45 lb. bag that covers up to 1 sq. ft. of land for your outdoor needs." 

What do y'all think? It was $3.49 a bag. I took home a sample that had fallen out of a bag, and I've been peering at the granules with a loupe. They don't look too sharp, but the size of the individual pieces varies quite a bit. Now I'm fretting about its chemical composition. Offhand I'd guess it was primarily quartz, but there are a bunch of different colors in there -- black, white, red, green, beige -- it's not all the same kind of rock.

On the other hand, there's CaribSea Flora Max, and Seachem Flourite. Not quite gravel but not quite sand. 

Ack! Too many choices! My brain is full! :confused1:

The lack of a "safe for people/fish" label rules Tan Small Pebble Paver Leveling Sand out, doesn't it.


----------



## Gold Finger

Careful. Paver leveling sand is designed to compact and even contains concrete sometimes.


----------



## Gold Finger

and/or herbicide so grass wont grow in the cracks.


----------



## Lutra

I hadn't thought of either of those. Thanks for the warning. I knew it was too good to be true.


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## Lutra

What's up in your tank these days, Gold Finger?


----------



## Gold Finger

Not much. Am waiting on disposable income to do a mass stem planting. Did you check out my journal? My new signature is a link.


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## Lutra

No, I hadn't. Checking it out now!


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## xjasminex

Yea, be careful choosing your sand. Goldfinger brings up good points!

This is the kind i use: 

http://www.texasaquaticsupply.com/d...y - Mystic White II Pool Filtration Media.pdf 

The sand you bought, it may compact because of the different sizes, the smaller pieces will shift to the bottom and compact. But im not positive but it makes sense to me.
Run a test on the sand too, let it sit in water for a couple of hours and then test the ph. But id be leery because of what goldfinger said, maybe you can call the manufacturer and ask them some questions, they probably wont come out and say that its fish safe because thats not what they make it for though. 

And my plants...just found out that they really didnt ship monday, they shipped today at 4:31 pm....which means i wont get them till thursday, thank you USPS tracking!
I will be modifying my hood tomorrow night when i get outta work, i picked up the glass today, and all i need to do now is get the dremmel out and start cutting away! I will take pictures for you all because you asked. Cross your fingers that all goes well!


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## Hilde

I prefer river sand. I got a 50lb bag for $3 from a landscaping co. It is brown. It needs very little rinsing. I just sift the bigger pieces out with a colander.



xjasminex said:


> I am going today after work to get some glass cut so I can DIY modify my hood on my tank to accommodate the new light. It's a plastic hood with the glass that just fits a normal one bulb strip light and that is a tad to small for the new light I have. I'm going to use a dremmel and cut the hood right behind the doors so I can keep the doors that open and then I'm getting the glass cut to fit from the doors to the back of the tank with some room for the filters and stuff.


That is exactly what I did. Just cut it with wire cutters. I also put a metal strip under the lip behind the door for support.


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## Gold Finger

+1 on river sand if you like a random coloration or pool filter sand if you like a uniform one. I think either would work well for you. Play sand has too much size variation and takes years to rinse. You might feel that 3M colorquartz is too sharp.


----------



## Lutra

I'm still looking for a local supplier of river sand, that would be my first choice. But what about beach sand? I live on the coast. Too hard to wash the salts out?


----------



## xjasminex

Beach sand is made of seashells and corals and what not, there is also the salt, personally i wouldnt risk it. The seashells and corals will cause your ph to rise, now with goldfish thats not a terrible thing. Maybe if you rinse and rinse and rinse and then soak for awhile. Also check the ph of the water to to see how much it would go up. And then i would boil/bake it to make sure nothing icky gets in your tank.


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## Lutra

I'm grasping at straws here, I know. I'd really rather have the river sand. I'm going to have to overcome my agoraphobia and go find the stuff. Let you all know when I finally do!


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## Hilde

Lutra said:


> I'd really rather have the river sand. I'm going to have to overcome my agoraphobia and go find the stuff.


If you can't find it dried out. You could go to a river and get some. Just wear gloves for there may be some creatures in the sand that will bite you. Hoppy did this. He baked it in the oven and smelled the house up for a week. :hihi:


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## xjasminex

That sounds like a good idea, then you can say its all natural and organic!


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## xjasminex

Alright folks, I just finished modifying my hood.....I am so proud of myself for not messing this up! It works perfectly!

So here's the hoods before I did anything...









Heres the hoods after I took the glass out...









Here's the hoods after I dremmeled away at the one...








As you can see I left a lip so the glass can rest on it and allow me to use the doors. I did this to both of the hoods. One required a tad bit more work because one of my filters is bigger and needed just a wee bit more space for the glass between the filter and hood.

Heres the new and improved modified hoods on the tank...









And heres the hoods on with the glass in place...









Now for our viewing pleasure here's the tank with the new lights!








It's a lot brighter, but the picture doesn't really show it. 

And here's the moonlights!








Ha ha, you can't really see anything but once it's filled with plants it will look cooler.


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## Lutra

Cool!


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## mjbubbles

Jasmine, That looks great! Congrats on the DIY project.
The tank looks great, too.

How do you like the lights? Can you turn the moonlights off, or do they stay on all the time? Is there a way to control them with a timer or something?

I'm looking for lighting for my new 55, and your lighting looks like a good possibility.

Great tank! and cute goldies.
mj


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## xjasminex

Thanks mjbubbles!
I like the lights because they are going to grow plants, but they are just simple ones. The moonlights are on all the time, I have the lights on a timer so when the timer turns off the moonlights turn off there's no timer on the lights themselves, I wish there were but the they would have been really expensive. There are two switches though so you can choose to have one or two bulbs running. 

Now I finally got my plants and I spent all yesterday getting everything ready, clearing my tank out, adding the dirt and the sand cap, then planting and filling my tank, so here's the final product...

Whole tank shot...









Right side...









Middle...









Left side...









So the red jungle Val that I ordered came half dead, so that's why it looks so bad, it's got a long way to go though I'm hoping the amazon swords grow fast and get big and the same for the Val's. I plan on adding my fish tonight if all mt water parameters are good and so far they are. I will be starting a journal today or tommorow on this tank too!


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## Lutra

Looks good, Jasmine, if I were a fish I'd like living there!

Latest Lutra's-sand-obsession update: A friend in the Four Corners area will send me some genuine river sand. Much less likely to be polluted than anything in Southern California!


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## xjasminex

That's great, hopefully this will be the perfect sand! 
By the way the thing in the upper left hand side is my version of a riparium planters, it's a suction cup shower cup from Walmart, I need to find more too!


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## Lutra

In desperation I made one out of a cheap plastic glass by melting a couple of holes in it: one for the suction cup's handle and one for drainage. Hydrophyte's version is a lot nicer than mine, frankly; I've put in a request for a few more.

My next projects will be an easily removed mesh top to keep my brother's cat out of the tank next time she visits (ours leave it alone), and I'm thinking of making a shadowbox-type background to put behind the tank. The tank is positioned directly in front of the utterly unused fireplace, and the fireplace screen shows through much more prominently than I want it. 

I'm looking forward to the sand. I really like it out there in Anasazi land, if I didn't have my aged parents to worry about I'd have moved there already. So a bit of the sand in my tank seems like a way to bring the feeling into my living room.


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## xjasminex

Oh speaking of backgrounds, thats going to be my next thing to improve this tank....what color do you guys think i should do? I would like a darker background color...but black is so...black....lol.

Good thought on the sand, it means something to you so that makes it all the more speacial for your tank!


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## Lutra

Why don't you take a photograph of the tank plus background and play with it in photoshop? Choose a somewhat transparent tint so that the water in the tank is colored by it, too, and try out a number of colors. 

There's a monster thread going that you might want to take a look at too, about using carefully selected backlit backdrops to create the impression of endless depths of water behind your tank. The link in the first post is to a saltwater forum, and what the woman did is _amazing_. A whole level of lusciousness to aspire to....
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/141061-shadowbox-background.html


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## xjasminex

I did read that, its really cool but my room is tiny and my tank is right up against the wall as far as it can go. I would love to do a mirror as a background but thats a big mirror, lol. And as for photoshop i would have no clue how to go about that.....


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## ThinkTank

xjasminex said:


> I would love to do a mirror as a background but thats a big mirror, lol. And as for photoshop i would have no clue how to go about that.....


The silver backgrounds they have on rolls at most LFS's works just as well as a mirror.


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## xjasminex

Hey thanks thinktank!
Hopefully i can find some and see if i like it!


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## Gold Finger

The tank looks great, Jasmine! I just love red jungle vals. I can't wait to see your journal. Good luck with that sand, Lutra. I bet it's perfect.


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## xjasminex

Alright!
Heres my journal!

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/t...w-tech-planted-goldfish-tank.html#post1619082


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## nkambae

*a few thoughts...*

Hi all,

I've been reading this thread with some interest because I too like to experiment and try new things with my planted tanks. To see what works and what doesn't. I like growing 'high tech' plants in low tech aquariums cuz it ain't supposed to work that way. Sometimes I am just enough of a contrarian to try something because someone else said it can't be done. So I applaud the efforts to have goldfish in planted aquariums. I think you will succeed.

Almost all my tanks have dirt in them and I think dirt tanks grow nice plants. I would recommend you all resist the temptation to not plant heavily when starting out. I have had the best success with planted tanks by stuffing them full of plants at the outset. Plant so that 75% of the substrate is densely planted and throw in some kind of floating plant as well. You can always take them out as things fill in. Trade them in for store credit, trade with other aquarists, give 'em away... whatever. The last several dirt tanks I have set up have been planted and stocked on the same day. Just wet the dirt with some mulm from an existing filter before you cap it and fill the tank. There was no ammonia or nitrite spike. There were no appreciable algae issues either. 

Someone mentioned Limnophila sessiflora which is an attractive plant and easy to grow but is also classified as an invasive, noxious weed in many jurisdictions. So be careful. Check your state's list of prohibited species.

It was also opined that goldfish didn't have many predators because they get so large and carp were thought to be analogous to aquatic elephants. I concur that large carp (Cyprinus carpio) do not have many natural predators but when small they will be consumed with gusto by pike, catfish, gar, and the like. By comparison, goldfish (Carassius auratus) do not have the benefit of a large adult size (12 inches or so) to protect them from predation and would be natural prey for anything large enough to fit one in its mouth. 

I realize that we have been discussing mainly fancy goldfish and, while not quite as adaptable and hardy as their comet type cousins, they still share many of the same traits: long lived, omnivorous, tolerant of a wide range of temperatures and water parameters, messy eaters, and desirable denizens of (even) planted aquariums. So I say, stay the course and have some fun doing goldfish ala the planted tank. Good luck. 

stu


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## xjasminex

Thanks nkambae, its always nice to have a suppoter when so many oppose what you are trying to do, not so much here in this thread but i have read on several other threads where a goldfish lover builds a beautiful planted tank and everyone criticises their choice of goldfish. It can be very discouraging for some, but so far i think Goldfinger, Lutra and i have gotten positve comment! Plus its always great when someone else shares what you like/want to do!


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## Gold Finger

Yeah thabks, nkambae! I like your attitude. Anyone who reads Ayn Rand and likes goldfish is welcome to me. I agree, by the way, that size (of auratus) has nothing to do with any "boldness" which may be observed. If these fish are bold it is simply because they know damned well that they are living in a tank with no predators. Even if these fish had large ancestors, neither genetic memory or "instinct" easily override the perception of threat or safety appraised through direct current sensory input. It is quite sane for these fish to feel safe. To feel threatened would be neurotic. More importantly size related safety only applies to full grown fish of any species, as you said. around 10 inches or so for these fish. Young wild carp are not more bold than feeding necessitates they be.


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## defiesexistence

Gold Finger said:


> More importantly size related safety only applies to full grown fish of any species, as you said. around 10 inches or so for these fish.


A full-grown _auratus_ can be 14-18 inches in a natural waterway. Maybe a very hungry 40 inch (often slim-built and fast, like gar or pike) predator is going to take a bite out of a 18 inch thick-bodied carp. Sure it may happen, but it's got a nice potential for a hard meal, and injury for the predator. The goldfish will change its behavior, and tends to get out of its way. But have some adult giant danios with a gar also twice their size, and the danios will probably run and hide, not just get out of the way. I am sorry the original statement I made was unclear, but less tenebrous, I mean goldfish are less skittish than most fish in similar situations.

Jasmine, there are pictures in your journal roud:


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## xjasminex

I know and there is actually plants in there too, lots of them!
I am very proud of myself, i think i did a good job, i just hope it stays in a decently good condition...lol


----------



## Gold Finger

defiesexistence said:


> A full-grown _auratus_ can be 14-18 inches in a natural waterway. Maybe a very hungry 40 inch (often slim-built and fast, like gar or pike) predator is going to take a bite out of a 18 inch thick-bodied carp. Sure it may happen, but it's got a nice potential for a hard meal, and injury for the predator. The goldfish will change its behavior, and tends to get out of its way. But have some adult giant danios with a gar also twice their size, and the danios will probably run and hide, not just get out of the way. I am sorry the original statement I made was unclear, but less tenebrous, I mean goldfish are less skittish than most fish in similar situations.


Am glad you replied. I really don't know jack about fish behavior but I think it's an interesting topic and am happy to talk about it anyway. First, I'd like to change my original response from "I disagree" to "I agree, but only partly". Mainly because goldfish and their relatives, like all manor of creature, use multiple overlapping strategies to survive and thrive; any one of which, including your "out-sizing the predators" strategy is in play to some extent in any species at all times. Size must play a role in behavior. However, in some natural north american waterways there are predators topping out at over 75lbs and six feet in length. Even an 18" Auratus would stand as much chance of surviving an encounter with a full grown muskellunge as it would of being dropped in a wood chipper. I used to fish for northern pike (AKA Jack) and briefly switched to fishing for Muskies. I stopped because it is terrifying. I have some crazy stories If you ever want to hear them. Anyway, I propose that the goldfish' "boldness" may come more from a different, but related strategy. Their dominant survival strategy, and most notable characteristic is greed. I believe they choose to disregard danger and just go ahead and eat all the time no matter what the consequence. They may or may not be big enough to survive predation by larger fishes which may or may not be present in the water, but if they are they will definitely thrive. The boldness is not a side effect of size, but a strategy all of its own. Fearlessness was not given to the fish because it has nothing to fear. The fish is fearless despite possible present danger or reason to be afraid. In waters with effective predators they die; in waters without, they thrive.


----------



## defiesexistence

^^^
But where in a rice paddy is a muskellunge? (teasing) :hihi: Muskie are terrifying enough with their inward-facing teeth, and eagerness to snap. Nasty-tempered fish too, I can see why you stopped fishing for them. Anyhow. I brought up _a_ factor, (there are more, and you brought up a very good one) and we're all hypothesizing here. If we rap a knuckle across the glass just as our fish are about to open their dozer mouths and go for the food, they start, _still_ grab the food, and zoom to the back of the tank where they nom in peace. You are right.

Going to comment on that journal now; I want a subscription, Jasmine.


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## xjasminex

How's this for food for thought...lol. A goldfish has at least one natural predator that I know of in it's own natural environment....itself. A bigger goldfish will most likely eat the smaller goldfish, in a tank environment this may not happen because they don't have to provide for themselves but say in a pond in Asia I'm sure this happens often.


----------



## defiesexistence

Yep  And that which is airborne... Herons, cranes, and the like. Mandarin fish too.


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## xjasminex

Awww, yes! I didn't think of those! That's why I said I knew at least one, lol.


----------



## sockfish

Hmmmm, at work now, but want to read this whole thread. I have a 30 gal sitting empty and love fancy goldfish. 

I don't see many pics up--can anyone direct me to a few; I did see Newman's at the beginning of the thread.

Thanks,

sox


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## xjasminex

My journal has new pics of my tank, it's jasmine 55 planet tank in the journal section.


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## Gold Finger

Raccoons!


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## xjasminex

Ha ha, very true, but do that have raccoons in Asia? Lol.


----------



## Gold Finger

Pandas?:hihi:


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## xjasminex

Ha ha, hmm, they have the red panda which is sorta like a raccoon.... =]


----------



## Gold Finger

RIGHT! They'd eat 'em. Right?


----------



## xjasminex

Ha, im not sure, why dont you call them and ask!


----------



## Gold Finger

Wo de jzhong wen shoi de bu hao. (my chinese sucks)


----------



## xjasminex

Well your on the right track....i could ask my Chinese friend Chao!


----------



## Gold Finger

Ni Hao, Chao!


----------



## xjasminex

Ha ha, i really am going to ask her now.


----------



## Gold Finger

*56K warning!*

Hey Jasmine; I hope you don't mind some more off topic stuff here and a long post, but I could use your experience and I'm sure this thread has a lot of other good posters and lurkers just jam-packed with goldfish knowledge waiting to chime in as well. So...

My conversation with DefiesExistence about goldfish behavior got me thinking about.... goldfish behavior.... Well, feeding behavior specifically, and that got me thinking about goldfish nutritional needs. I have a question about that, but, to make a short story long, I have a preamble too. (Yes, I can be a bit of a windbag).

I was recently advised to try to improve how efficiently my fish digest and process their food in order to keep my waste nutrient level low while keeping my feeding related growth high, so I am thinking that over. "They" know a lot about goldfish' nutritional needs these days, but I bet there is still a lot to learn. For example, they are now arguing that goldfish may not need carbs at all. One of the most common problems with goldfish is gas in the intestine. It is caused by fermentation processes set up in the intestine, right? And the cause is the grain (wheat, corn, etc.) and legume (soy) used as filler in the food, right? These carbs are fermenting in there where there should only be enzymes and beneficial bacteria at work, right?

I think it is a good idea to cut these grains out of the diet as much as possible, but also... Hikari makes a product called Saki Hikari which claims to contain an active probiotic which will set up in the gut and displace the yeasts which are frementing in there. Same idea as probiotics in humans which i know work to improve intestinal performance and health. I am a cynic when it comes to products making claims like this, and if the bacteria are in fact still viable in the food by the time the fish eat it I am not about to take on faith, but I will try the food and report back.

Now, back to the fish behavior. They spend almost all day every day sifting through the substrate (skimming is also big goldfish fun). They are filtering algae and perhaps something else (I would love to know what ???). It must be an important food source. They have those odd pockets inside their gill arches which trap the little particles they scrape off of the rocks. They say to feed fish food one to four times daily, but I bet their metabolic processes are predisposed to, and would benefit by, having access to algae 24/7. 

Anyone think we should be trying to provide them with 24/7 access to algae in addition to whatever else we are feeding them???


----------



## xjasminex

Good thoughts Goldfinger!

Heres my thought on improving food to decrease waste...in dogs and cats when you feed a better higher quality of food that does not have fillers and extras your animals poop less, the fillers and extras do not get digested and are therefore excreted creating more poop. With better foods all the food is digestible and most of it is absorbed and therefore you have less waste. I would think this true for everything, even our goldfish.

As far as the natural diet of goldfish go, i would think what carbs they get from their habitat only come from the plants that they consume. For example the nurtitional break down of kale says its 72% carbs. 

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2461/2

Even though kale isnt in their natural habitat i am just using it as a starting point. I think some carbs are ok for them, like the carbs that would make up the aquatic plants. Un-natural carbs, like you said would be wheat, corn, soy and others. These are carbs that unless people feed bread to them, they would never encounter. This would cause their digestion to be off and make the floaty from the gas. Also though, every fish is different, my goldfish have never had issues, but others have issues all the time. Just like people, one thing works for them and some dont. Reading labes and knowing what the nurtitional needs of your fish are is one of the most important things to know.

I also add probiotics to my gel food, but like i said my fish have never had a problem so i cant report any difference. 

Yes, goldfish are always digestiong, thats why they eat 24/7, my goldfish have kale in their tank almost everyday. As far as having algea 24/7 many dont like algae in their tank, thats why i provide the kale, i mean there is algae in there but not that enough that they can easily eat.

Their constant shifting of substrate is what makes me think that a bare bottom tank is not a good idea...your going to have very bored goldfish with out substrate...lol.

I hope all that helped, lol, im bad with long posts!


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## Gold Finger

Thanks. That's a great reply. I never mind a long post.

Your Kale solution is great. I am glad you agree that full time availability to veg is appropriate. It affirms my thinking. I'll do the same. Are any other leafy veg as good?

What probiotics do you use? I have seen suggestion for adding human probiotics such as acidolphilus and bifidus to goldfish food, but don't feel that these are appropriate. Those are milk borne bacteria and are uniquely intrinsic to mammals. Goldfish would have a quite different set of bacteria, no? That's why I am interested in hikari's product. Although I know I am fussing and , I suppose, the best and easiest approach is probably to make sure the food is appropriate which should allow the intestinal flora to revert to a healthy balance all by its self. 

As for carbs, studies show that goldfish do not burn them for energy despite the fact that they are in some of the foods they eat. Supposedly, they get all their energy from burning fats. Not that everyone is convinced that these studies are accurate.

I will probably keep using prepared food as the base of my fishes diet, I just wish I could find one without grains or legumes. Even the Hikari has them. Perhaps it is fine if their bacteria are truly viable and work as claimed. I don't think I could get the right balance of essential amminos, vitamins, and minerals in the right proportions doing it myself. Not as well as the manufacturer does.


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## Gold Finger

I just found a document online. According to the Tokyo Department of fisheries, Aeromonas Hydrophila and Bacteroides Type A are the predominant Cassius Auratus intestinal bacteria along with A. Punctata, Pseudomonas, Clostridum and others. (I obsess a little, sometimes)


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## Gold Finger

The department of fisheries in India did a study which showed that Lactobaccilus did result is increased fish growth. Also, that "Sporolac" produced even more growth. It is a medication containing Lactobaccilus Sporogenes which used in India as an antidiarheal.


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## Hilde

Fancy goldfish remind me of cows. Munch, munch all day long. Perhaps they need gravel to help digest their food?

Here is an idea for a Lactobaccilus for fancy goldfish. Perhaps .25 teaspoon weekly would be beneficial.


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## Gold Finger

Yeah. Might help, but I really want to find the right bactreia: Aeromonas and Bacteroides, etc. I can't figure out what's in "Jump Start" or Saki Hikari. It makes me think it is just Lactobacillius. 

As for gravel for digestion... maybe. It's not known to be so, but... They do have a tooth. One thing for sure there are bacteria and enzymes involved, but no stomach acids. No stomach.


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## xjasminex

I just used acidolphilus in the gel food, its what the recipe called for.

DataGuru at the gab has done tons of research into gancy goldfish and has compiled a ton of gel food recipes that are balanced for fancy goldfish i used this one...

http://thegab.org/Goldfish/gel-food-recipe-3-mackerel-greens-kale-pumpkin.html

And their stomach is there but its liek threst of their intestines...see!

http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-internal-anatomy.html


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## Gold Finger

I just innoculated my fish with Acidolphilus, bifidus, bulgaris, and strep. Any that will benefit should establish, but I am still after the right ones. Apparently the Hikari Saki biotic is FDA approved, so I guess it must be viable. Still have not figured out what it is though.


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## Gold Finger

All the best growth formula foods contain wheat germ and claim it is easily digested, so I guess it must be so.


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## xjasminex

Oh and other veggies that i have tried have been mustard greens, and i think i got some kind of lettuce...they didnt like them, oh and spinach, which they kinda like...They also like sweet potatoes.


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## Gold Finger

I will try them. What's your take on the wheat issue? The GAB consensus is against it. Some companies brag about having no grains and say they are a bad thing. I can't find any solid scientific research. My instinct and reason tell me veg is much better as a staple, but then again grains are not natural to dogs and cats but they are proven to be healthier and live longer eating it.


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## xjasminex

Personally for me, i think veggies is the way to go, although i do feed them some flake food that is left over from when it was their staple food. I like flake food as a once in a while snack, I think i will continue to give them a commercially prepared food like once a week or so, when my flakes run out will be on the look out for a higher quality food.


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## Gold Finger

I have been looking at all the top foods lately. I am not sold on Hikari, but am really impressed with New Life Spectrum Goldfish Formula. Check out their nutrition post here


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## Gold Finger

I will also continue to supplement with HBH Algae Grazers which is a spirulina based food with plenty of other veg like peas and spinach.


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## Lutra

Hi there. Sorry I went missing for several days but I had some family business that needed to be attended to -- everything's okay now.

I've been going on the theory that goldfish are omnivores, so I try to give them a varied diet. I do use Hikari (I switch off between Gold and Saki-Hikari) as the primary nutritional source, supplemented with peas, spinach, wheat germ, and frozen brine shrimp. I think my fish look very healthy, and their color is vibrant.

No, wheat germ isn't a part of their natural environment, but it is a good source of vitamins and proteins. Plus the fish love to eat it. I've never noticed any problems with "gas," but I don't feed it to them every day, or in huge quantities. Large proportions of grain in cat food are just plain silly (they're carnivores!) and serve mostly to make the food cost less, but I think it's likely that seeds of all sorts of plants fall into rivers on a regular basis. 

As far as the "no-carbs" diet is concerned, if you feed humans (also omnivores) a diet without carbs -- protein only -- some of the protein will be cannibalized to provide the carbs which are necessary to our metabolism. It's a inferential leap, but I suspect that the same thing may happen when you feed a solid protein diet to goldfish.


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## defiesexistence

We are chronic overthinkers. Glad to see a discussion on nutrition though.

I'm probably crazy, but I tend not to trust commercial food in general because the purpose behind a business is to make money, or you have no business. Some truly might wish to educate (nice article, Gold!), but most, not so much. I think the 'fat-ash-protein' content on fish food labels is worth little, and concur the ingredients list is the important part.

There are carbs in all plants, and there are carbs in all fish. For 'them' to say that goldfish do not need carbs is unreasonable; they eat plants and fish. The carb (of the oligosaccharides) found in legumes (read:soy) can result in bloat in humans, because the small intestine cannot break it down into simple sugar, and bacteria then break it down for us, producing gas as a by-product. Goldfish have no small intestine, and a different set of bacteria, but I'll guess the same thing happens to them. (Not looking up the fantastic bacteria Gold pulled up right now, because carb research turned my mind to mush) I agree milk, corn, and grains ought to be out of fish diets. Here's food with no soy, wheat, corn (some ingredients like lecithin might come from these though, least it's a small amount.)

Thinking goldfish constantly peck at plants and gravel to eat something called aufwuch.

I notice that when my fish eat something, as they are gumming it, they sometimes suck up some sand/gravel. I think this is to help 'chew' it, seeing as they have little mechanical digestion, and a relatively short area for chemical digestion to break down the large bits.

Some plants similar to kale are chard, and collard greens. Want to try those, but today the fish tries squash.


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## mjbubbles

Interesting thread about food. I too, think that variety is the best. My goldies get 3 kinds of commercial food in rotation in the morning, and at night they get a fish sized portion of whatever veg I'm eating. So far, they like spinach, kale, mustard greens, lettuce, parsley and squash. They don't like carrots, and scrambled egg makes them floaty. They also fast one day a week and get peas the day after fast day.

Since I've upped the veggie/fresh food part of their diet, they are much healthier, less floaty and have grown a lot!

Edit: They also like collard greens, but they have to be cooked really well or they can't eat them.


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## xjasminex

Tried green leaf lettuce yesterday and after about ten or so hours in the tank I came home to find they ate all of it!


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## mjbubbles

I think something in the veggie clip gives them something to do besides uproot and eat the plants or tankmates!

One of my White Cloud Minnows has gone missing and I think Fluffy ate him! :eek5:


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## Gold Finger

Lutra said:


> Hi there. Sorry I went missing for several days but I had some family business that needed to be attended to -- everything's okay now.
> 
> I've been going on the theory that goldfish are omnivores, so I try to give them a varied diet. I do use Hikari (I switch off between Gold and Saki-Hikari) as the primary nutritional source, supplemented with peas, spinach, wheat germ, and frozen brine shrimp. I think my fish look very healthy, and their color is vibrant.
> 
> No, wheat germ isn't a part of their natural environment, but it is a good source of vitamins and proteins. Plus the fish love to eat it. I've never noticed any problems with "gas," but I don't feed it to them every day, or in huge quantities. Large proportions of grain in cat food are just plain silly (they're carnivores!) and serve mostly to make the food cost less, but I think it's likely that seeds of all sorts of plants fall into rivers on a regular basis.
> 
> As far as the "no-carbs" diet is concerned, if you feed humans (also omnivores) a diet without carbs -- protein only -- some of the protein will be cannibalized to provide the carbs which are necessary to our metabolism. It's a inferential leap, but I suspect that the same thing may happen when you feed a solid protein diet to goldfish.


 Hi Lutra; Glad to have you back and that all is well with you and yours.

As for the grains, the alleged problem is that fish cannot burn the carbs as fuel but only turn it into fat and that anything over 15% carb can lead to fat deposit health problems, particularly fatty liver disease. This is all from a ton of studies done in the sixties which are pretty much accepted as accurate by biologists in general. They say they only really burn fat as fuel, kind of opposite of humans. If it is all true, there would not be a problem until the fish reaches middle age. I am not saying I fully buy it, just mentioning it.


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## Gold Finger

defiesexistence said:


> We are chronic overthinkers. Glad to see a discussion on nutrition though.
> 
> I'm probably crazy, but I tend not to trust commercial food in general because the purpose behind a business is to make money, or you have no business. Some truly might wish to educate (nice article, Gold!), but most, not so much. I think the 'fat-ash-protein' content on fish food labels is worth little, and concur the ingredients list is the important part.
> 
> There are carbs in all plants, and there are carbs in all fish. For 'them' to say that goldfish do not need carbs is unreasonable; they eat plants and fish. The carb (of the oligosaccharides) found in legumes (read:soy) can result in bloat in humans, because the small intestine cannot break it down into simple sugar, and bacteria then break it down for us, producing gas as a by-product. Goldfish have no small intestine, and a different set of bacteria, but I'll guess the same thing happens to them. (Not looking up the fantastic bacteria Gold pulled up right now, because carb research turned my mind to mush) I agree milk, corn, and grains ought to be out of fish diets. Here's food with no soy, wheat, corn (some ingredients like lecithin might come from these though, least it's a small amount.)
> 
> Thinking goldfish constantly peck at plants and gravel to eat something called aufwuch.
> 
> I notice that when my fish eat something, as they are gumming it, they sometimes suck up some sand/gravel. I think this is to help 'chew' it, seeing as they have little mechanical digestion, and a relatively short area for chemical digestion to break down the large bits.
> 
> Some plants similar to kale are chard, and collard greens. Want to try those, but today the fish tries squash.


I totally agree. I know they use wheat as a binder to make the flakes or pellets cohesive and I think that some amount of the carb from this source is OK since it is part of their natural diet, as you say. That food from Angels Plus used egg and yeast to as a binder ( and has a bunch of PORK in it?!?!). The origin of gel food is an attempt to get away from using grains and their associated gultens as a binder. It is too much wheat or soy that I don't trust, And Hikari now has it as their main ingredient. Ducks love bread and will live on it given the choice, but maybe not for long...

I think Awfwuch means algae.


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## Gold Finger

defiesexistence said:


> food with no soy, wheat, corn (some ingredients like lecithin might come from these though, least it's a small amount.)



WAIT! I call bulls*it! That food is full of pork liver and they say it has no preservatives. That can't be true.


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## Gold Finger

Hey Defiesexistence; 

These carbs and those bacteria got me thinkin'...

First, the bacteria they found in those fish was gram negative. Those fish had predominantly pathogenic bacteria in their intestines. Maybe because it was in some badly polluted part of India... maybe not. Wild dogs and cats don't live long because they eat so much meat that their intestines fill up with nasty septic gram negative bacteria which rot their food in their guts. Pet dogs and cats live much longer because of the amount of grains and veg they eat. It allows a better type of bacteria to live in their gut. The Indian government treated those fish with human probiotics and they got healthier. Perhaps fish are better off eating good fish food than what they find in the wild.

PS I am also probably crazy... :flick:


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## xjasminex

Ha ha, Goldfinger you are just a fountain of information! What do you do for a living? I would never have thought to go so deep into goldfish digestion. I do know that goldfish need about 30-40% protein in their diet. Now im not sure if it matters where that protein comes from, i know of people feeding eggs to their fish and as it has been said on here, it made them a tad floaty. I would expect that because eggs make me feel icky and gassy, lol, but it also seems that eggs are one of those foods that you need to eat often for them to not disrupt your digestion. And im not to keen on that pork liver either....i can go ahead and say that its not on their natural menu but i just think its icky to and thats my main reason for not liking it. I am partial to fish protien sources because, they naturally eat fish in the wild as a protein source and fish protein has natural omega fatty acids that help our fishies grow big a strong!

Lutra- Sending you happy thoughts!!!


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## Gold Finger

I'm like a carpenter, basically. As for the pig parts...Yeah, I'm an unrepentant carnivore myself (though my daughters have been vegetarians their whole lives) but it kind of grosses me out too and I don't want to feed it to my fish. I can't picture a goldfish dragging a wild pig into a stream and eating it. Not that I think everything is better off the way it is in "Nature". Some things we come up with are an improvement. Grain was pretty foreign to us once. It is a great food now. Arguably the most important human food. And the way we grow, process, and eat it is completely "Un natural", but great. It is an invention, really. Odd things can be good... Still, no pig livers for my fish (or my daughters).


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## xjasminex

Ha ha, i was a vegetarian too for a few years. I started eating some meat when i started working out alot. But i only eat mostly chicken and deer, some turkey and some fish.


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## Gold Finger

I never could adjust to vegism. Left me weak. Right or wrong, I likes me meat! I love fish and would like to be a pescaterian, but it's too haaaard (whiny voice).


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## xjasminex

I still choose vegetarian dishes unconsciously most of the time, so i have to remember to eat protein, but im a big fan of a good piece of chicken!


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## Gold Finger

Deeelishus!


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## waterfaller1

I got turned onto a new food for my Goldfish~Dainichi. So far I like it. A heartier sized pellet than Saki, that sinks straight down. I do soak them a minute or two.:icon_wink


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## xjasminex

Hey thanks for the suggestion Carole!


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## waterfaller1

Here's a link
http://www.dainichi.com/goldfish_food.html
Supposed to make the gut flora, so IP's are eliminated or cannot attach. I got the Ultra, not the color max.


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## defiesexistence

Craziness is underrated, you know?

A fish that can drag cattle into water is the longfin eel in New Zealand. Nasty fish, feeds in packs. Worse than muskies?

Good call on the preservatives, Gold. But, hey, no grain, though the pork was probably fed with it though. I think goldfish naturally have a little starches: lily tubers, rice paddies (mm, that one's unnatural), and other plants store energy by starch instead of sugar, right? I think that starches are natural, and some grains are okay, but not in the quantities majority of people feed their fish. Take bovines for example. Factory farms raise cows on grains, and soy. This causes a crazy digestive upset, and is one of the reasons there's a such thing as E. coli outbreaks. Let cows graze as they naturally would, they still have E. coli, but not proplematically, their fat turns a yellow color (now contains omegas), they're healthy. A wild cow eating the same grass wouldn't live as long simply because it's exposed to risks, and doesn't get the same care a domestic animal does. Sure, nature isn't the best way. It can be cruel, but it gives a template for us to follow by way of nutrition. Wild carp probably had bad bacs in the first place eating what they eat, but when everything to eat in that watersystem was polluted, the bac problem multiplied. If we give our carp good food and clean water, they'll still have the same bacs, but not in gross quantity. Just my thoughts. Going to chew on the bacs you mentioned earlier along with some natural unnaturally processed GF pumpkin waffles.

Aufwuch's not just algae, can be other microorganisms, small bugs and bacs we can't see. Another time I wish my microscope worked.

EDIT: Waffles were delicious. Can see how clostridium would be especially beneficial as it breaks down cellulose, bacteroides type a for starches, and Pseudomonas for animal proteins, but why do fish have/are given acidophilis (breaks down dairy)?


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## Gold Finger

I can't wait to check out those eels!

I am off of NLS. It has soy which strikes me as way worse than wheat. I came to feel that some grain is OK, even good, but legumes, especially soy are BAD. I think I'll go back and look at that food with the pork guts again.

The acidlophus sounded weird to me too at first, but it can live on a bunch of different things and is most beneficial in out competing harmful bacteria for intestinal real estate.

Maybe Awfwuch means "Algae and stuff on rocks and stuff"


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## Gold Finger

waterfaller1 said:


> Here's a link
> http://www.dainichi.com/goldfish_food.html
> Supposed to make the gut flora, so IP's are eliminated or cannot attach. I got the Ultra, not the color max.


I can't seem to find their ingredient list. Does it have soy or wheat or unspecified vegetable in it?


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## Lutra

Gold Finger said:


> Maybe Awfwuch means "Algae and stuff on rocks and stuff"


I believe Aufwuchs means "that which grew up/has grown up" in German, from the verb _aufwachsen_. And as a matter of fact yes, it does seem to mean algae and stuff. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aufwuchs

And thanks for the happy thoughts, Jasmine, they're always appreciated!


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## Gold Finger

Cool word. Will try to slip it, casually, into conversation.


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## Gold Finger

defiesexistence said:


> Craziness is underrated, you know?
> 
> A fish that can drag cattle into water is the longfin eel in New Zealand. Nasty fish, feeds in packs. Worse than muskies?


8 foot, 230 lb. alligator gar.


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## xjasminex

Holy cow!!!

Thats extreme, i think i will stick to goldfish!
Sorry i have been outta the loop, i got sick!


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## Lutra

Omg. Don't wanna meet one of those.


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## Gold Finger

waterfaller1 said:


> I got turned onto a new food for my Goldfish~Dainichi. So far I like it. A heartier sized pellet than Saki, that sinks straight down. I do soak them a minute or two.:icon_wink


It is very good food but has too much soy for my particular fish. I like New Life Spectrum. Check out their webpage.


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## Gold Finger

Upped light. got BGA. killed it. learned about excel. will never return to letting the filth build up. will likely start dosing. Just NO3 at first. Will test GH, KH, etc.


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## xjasminex

You should just get another goldfish to get the no3, it would be cheaper in the end and your moor would love the company =]


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## Gold Finger

Believe me I am tempted. I'd put 20 fish in there if I thought I could get away with it, but I am still new at this and these fish produce so much waste. I will however feed these fish more heavily which I believe would benefit them (or at least the moor who metabolizes really fast). If that can get my N into range then great, but I doubt it. I think it will be healthier to have the waste contribute up to 2-3ppm and dose the rest up to almost 10ppm. Dosing N should be a cleaner way to get the N than from more poop. If If I add a fish and get no more than the 2-3ppm net NO3 now, what about 6 months from now? I am afraid I might have to make a bigger tank, which I don't want to be forced into. But I am tempted.

Another one of my bigger issues with stocking levels is nocturnal O2 levels. If I can figure that one out I may change my mind. I know I stock lighter than most but, right or wrong, I believe I am doing the right thing.


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## xjasminex

I think you'd still be ok, right now your tank is way under stocked with just the one goldfish, and right now your tank is under planted, since you just replanted. If you give the plants the time to grow you might find that your tank would be able to support two goldfish due to its size/ available plant space. But I can understand being cautious too, since I have a constant battle with my nitrates being high. I think it's due to dirt that becomes exposed and over feeding, I have 40 10inch lucky bamboo coming in the mail to help with nitrates, they suck up more nitrates than other plants.


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## xjasminex

Oh and as far as nocturnal o2 levels, you could add an airstone and place it on a timer to turn on 30-60 mins after the lights go off and have it turn off the 30-60 mins before the lights come on.


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