# JustLikeAPill's Detailed ADA 60-P Journal: November Makeover!!!



## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

I ordered my 60-P and a few other goods from ADG, primarily because Franks company has the BEST customer service I've experienced from the three US distributors of rimless aquariums by far (I felt the others gave my e-mails, when they were replied to, very short an curt replies)Frank was incredibly friendly, personable and eager to help. The customer service from other companies I could have purchased from wasn't bad, but I felt that the customer service I experienced with ADG went the extra mile to make me feel confident with my decisions and educated about my purchases.) In one instance I PM'd Frank a question, then decided to go ahead and call to make it easier since I was ready to hit the submit order button. By the time I dialed and my call was answered, he had already answered my PM! 

I also went with ADG and because the shipping rates were the best. Frank has helped me and answered many questions as well as put my mind to ease about a few problems, and I can not reccomend ADG enough, and will definately do business through them in the future. 

Now, to the pictures!

-Very good Packaging. This is the biggest box I've ever seen, and after waiting a week for my cube garden to come, I was very excited. 










Here it is, in all it's glory! I knew ADA aquariums were the best quality... but I didn't "get it" until I saw one in person. I had only seen them in pics before. I "get it" now, why people leave the stickers on. I have to eat my words when I used to speak out against stickers. I get it. The edges are beveled beautifully, the panes of glass are aligned perfectly, and if I didn't know otherwise I would swear there is no silicone. 











I also picked up the ADA thermometer that hangs over the tank. It was really affordable at only $15. I am thankful it's in Farenheight (wasn't sure it would be since its Japanese.) The numbers on it are 40,60,80,100 degrees with lines in between. My one complaint is that I wish the line to discern the temperature in between the listed temperatures (50, 70, and 90 degree marks) were a little wider/bolder. They are bolder and wider than the 2 degree incremental marks, but I wish they were more. I'm just being picky. I still love the thermometer. 












I also got Tourmaline F for my filter. Some don't believe in the electrostatic/ionic properties of Tourmaline, but I do. I have an air purifier and hair dryer that utilize tourmaline, so I figured I'd put some in my filter, too. The tourmaline stones were larger than I assumed they would be, I assumed they would be much smaller and in a finer mesh bag. Not that that matters. 










This is californian tourmaline I already had, and is approximately half a pound. 250 grams. I got it at a gem and mineral show, and crushed it into coarse sand and small chips with a hammer. Before I crushed it, it looked just like the ADA Tourmaline F, except I had five large stones and spent $32.... I should have just bought more Tourmaline F from ADA. This is going to go under the substrate, along with 100 grams of Seachem Matrix Carbon (in place of Clear Super, since I am trying to save money where I can.) Take note of the blue/green crystals in my crushed tourmaline!










I bought and crushed my own tourmaline to go under the substrate because ADA Tourmaline BC isn't pure tourmaline powder/sand. It's tourmaline mixed with carbon (and I think something else, but I could be wrong.) I am putting half a pound of tourmaline under the aquasoil----much much more than Tourmaline BC provides (I think it comes in 100 gram containers)











Here is the new 60-P on it's stand under an ADA Solar I that I need to lower a bit. It took forever to level the stand... then once I added 10 gallons of water and all the aquasoil, the leveling shifted so I had to get a jack and level it again. Finally, I got it leveled. The light bar is coming directly out the the stand (drilled a hole) and is mounted to the inside wall of the stand so you can't see the bracket. I plan on drilling two smaller holes on the right side of the stand and having my lily pipes come straight up out of them. That's a project for the weekend, I think. I want to get new, minimalist and modern handles for the stand. I could say some lines of BS about complementary contrasting aesthetics but it's just a nice, very firm and well constructed cabinet I found at a consignment shop. I need to find larger light cord clips than those supplied with the Solar I, because my light bar is larger than the ADA light bar (my goal, one day, is to have everything ADA. I have fallen in love.)










Here are all of my plants sitting in sterilization solutions, my hardscape materials, and in the big bowl is a mix of crushed tourmaline, carbon, about a quarter cup of aquasoil and ten milliliters of Seachem Stability to get the bacteria colony going. 










Here is the bottom of the tank with a slurry of all that crushed tourmaline (1/2 pound) and the matrix carbon (in place of Clear Super) I chose matrix because it sinks and doesn't float, also if it ever escapes from the bottom, it will blend in with the aquasoil since it's spherical. 










On top of the tourmaline and carbon, I added 20 ounces of Laterite. Forgot to take a pic. This is a very small amount, about the amount of a very large handfull and added it to provide a little iron. I also sprinkled a couple teaspoons of potassium sulfate and a couple teaspoons of CSM+B. I almost added some of my old fluorite to help get the bacteria colony in the aquasoil started, but didn't. I'm glad I didn't. 

I added five and a half liters of aquasoil which had been cycling outside (daily 100% water changed) for approx. a week. On top of that, I added six liters of amazonia powder (half of which was being cycled seperately but simultaneously with the regular amazonia the previous week.) It seems like I added a lot of powder type , since half of my aquasoil is powder, but it's not actually powder. If you've never seen/felt it, it's very, very fine small granules about the size of pelleted betta food. I honestly think I could some more powder type.... anyway, I didn't by any bacter from ADG so I got a bottle of Seachem Stability and poured it all in the moist aquasoil. I didn't feel like dosing it daily... not for me. 

http://s564.photobucket.com/albums/ss88/Justmeandmyself/?action=view&current=DSC06151.jpg&newest=1

I added the rocks just to play around and get an idea. This is NOT the final scape, because once I tried to move them when the tank was full, the water clouded up like crazy and I am waiting for my filter to clear the water before I tweak my hardscape. I will need the help of you guys and will make my own thread for this hardscape in the aquascaping section of the forum once the water clears. This is rock I collected at Lake Chatuge in Georgia. I love it, but this rock is too small for my aquarium. I will look for more if I can remember the area I found it in the next time I go to out lake house in Hiawassee, GA. 










Filling it in by pouring over the plastic bags really does cut down on cloudiness, but doesn't eliminate it. At least not in my case, but I didn't pour as slowly as I could have. I was excited to get it going and have the filter clear the water. 



















Below is the temporary holding tank for the plants/fish/shrimp/snails.










It has cleared up a little and here it is now. 


















I put the rock on the left at an angle, which do you guys prefer? Look at how much more cloudy the water got from slightly disturbing the aquasoil!










I don't really like the tallest rock at all, I have decided. I need to remember where I found these and try to find a better rock. I need to move the taller rock closer to the rock next to it on the left side.... But all in all, i think the tallest rock should be angled as the primary focal point but due to this particular shape of this rock that is not an option. I just don't like this rock at all because while the front is cool, the sides look pretty flat like it's been cut, but it hasn't. I really hope I can remember the spot on the lake where I found them. Lake Chatuge is huge... and depeding on the time of year, since its regulated via a damn, they may be exposed or totally under water. Damn. 

Or I could just order a set of Seiryu stones like everyone else... but I liked these because they are unique and I've never seen others like them.


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## malaybiswas (Nov 2, 2008)

That's quite a detailed write-up. Good stuff. On the rocks, may be the 2 on the left just on the right of the center piece and the tall one + the small one on the right, on the left and closer.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

I don't understand what you just said at all lol about placement lol, I'm sorry. Thank you, it was a lot more detailed but I took a lot out because it was so long, I was afraid people wouldn't read it. 

This is my old scape. It's supposed to be two rocky outcroppings on either side. I'm trying to recreate this but make it optimal and have the best aesthetic ratios and placement while keeping what I had in mind going on and all that jazz.










It's very hard to move my rocks when every time I touch a stone the water clouds up so you cant see anything. When will the aquasoil stop doing this?


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## TeamTeal (Mar 31, 2010)

my water still clouds up when i move stuff around


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

here is was this morning:








I 

moved the rocks slightly. Tell me what you think. 









and another slight tweak:










I dont know if I should move the small rock on the far right up a little closer or not.


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## tharsis (Oct 9, 2009)

cool looks like a great start!

I couldn't help but notice that you left the ADA sticker on the front


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

After getting the tank, I realize why people do. I never realized how nice they were in person. Pictures online don't do the craftmanship justice. I will never buy another brand and am happy I didn't go with ADA's leading US competitor. 

I "get it" and eat my words.


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## tharsis (Oct 9, 2009)

haha yeah I can't wait until I get my first ADA tank. Looks like you are on the right track with yours. I like the rocks, the dark orange is a nice combination with the soil.


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## Kilroy_1911 (Jan 27, 2010)

Please take my suggestions with a grain of salt. I am no rock placement expert but if it were my tank this is what I would do:

Start by sloping the substrate more, low in the front, high in the back.

Then move both rocks on the left slightly to the right.

Rotate the center rock upwards about 10-20 degrees.

Move the small rock on the right a little to the right, maybe slightly more towards the rear of the tank.

Overall just getting the stones a little closer together.

If you do go rock hunting again, I would try to get some larger rocks for your main stones.

Like I said, just some thoughts. If you disagree I completely understand, as this is very subjective material lol.

Good luck on your tank btw:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

I will move the rocks in accordance to your advice which sounds good, let the water clear and take pics so the forum members can help me tweak it more. 

I'm not going to slope the substrate more. I know your advice for me to do is is the rig advice, and I know I SHOULD if this tank was in it's permanent location, but it will only sit here for six months. I'm taking the semester off to recover from back surgery. Then I will move the tank to college, and every Christmas and summer when I go home from college and back and forth, I will have to drain the tank and take it with me. Even with roots holding the soil mostly together, I know the slopes have no hope of lasting so I, not going to bother trying to make any. 

I wish I could use sloping more but it won't last. I like your suggestions and will move the rocks, let the water clear and take pics. By the way, this isn't going to be an iwagumi scape. It will have lots of plants stem plant midground plants amongst the rocks and a carpet of glosso. 

Unless this I have a misunderstanding of iwagumi, and this is an iwagumi setup after all even with all those plants.


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

I am happy that you are very excited about your tank and pleased with our customer service - this is the essence of what we are trying to do with ADG Vibe. Personally, it makes me love my job even more when someone like you has walked away left with the impression that we have done our very best to address your needs and questions. The Vibe is completely driven by our desire to live, breath and share this inspirational and uniquely ADG experience. 

In a way, it's easy for us - because there isn't a single thing we sell that we don't personally use at home or in the gallery and I think that shows.

On a more helpful note - the best thing to do to avoid substrate disruption and water cloudiness is to finalize your scape before filling it with water (or to drain the tank, make your final adjustments, then refill in this case), that way you don't have to toy with moving things around too much. I'd also definitely recommend some larger stones to fill your tank (you can use my Mini S scape as sort of a reference point for scale, there are some minor differences in approach though for the Mini vs. a 60-P, but not so huge that you can't use one or the other as a point of reference). 

If you don't have any luck finding more local stones (which I encourage you to keep forging that path) to fit your needs, we do still offer Black Coast stone that we hand select for you so you can get exactly what you want.


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## VadimShevchuk (Sep 19, 2009)

i really like the detailed write up. I can't wait until i get my first ada tank! What are you gonna put in the tank fish wise?


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Frank, I got these stones several years ago when I first tried and failed at planted tanks. The tank size was a ten gallon so at the time, they were actually large for the tank lol. I know the lake of which the shore they came from, but the problem is that the lake is like the second or third largest lake in georgia so where I found them could be anywhere. Next time I go up to our cabin I will search for stones of the same type. I like this type of rock because it looks like marine live rock that saltwater aquarium enthusiasts use exclusively, but these don't affect water chemistry at all. If they do, it is undetectable (after they passed the vinegar test, I crushed one small stone up into sand once, let it sit in a few cups of water for a couple weeks and tested after the time had passed. The water chemistry was the same after as before, so they are inert.) Rocks that are inert are important to me. 

Vadim, it's just going to have five otocinclus, some dwarf cories, and shrimp and some nerite snails. It's not really going to be a fish tank but a plant tank, and the otocinclus are just janitors (and they remind me of little wimpy sharks ;P) and I like cories because they are comical, so I will get a small school (I'm thinking seven) of pygmy cories. 

Here are the pics after I tried to follow Kilroy's advice. Any more advice on tweaking would be great. The hard scape keeps looking better and better!

Front:









Angle:









Top:









Left side:









Middle and right side:










The substrate isn't really smooth and is bumpy. I will smooth it out after the hardscape is perfect. I'm not really worried about smooth substrate right now.

The ammonia levels in the tank are at 4 ppm and as soon as I get more advice on rock positioning, I will follow it and take the opportunity to change the water by 2/3rds and replace the cloudy water with clear water. What does the ammonia level in tanks with this much ( 11-12 lbs) aquasoil tend to be after about 24 hours? I want to see if me soaking the regular aquasoil and half of my amazonia powder for about a week helped. I also dumped a small bottle of Seachem Stability in the aquasoil once I had it laid down and let it sit a little while before adding water, and my filter is an Eheim 2215 from a cycled tank. Inside is liter of Ehfimech (it's considered mechanical filtration but we all know it also doubles as biomedia since its ceramic,porous and permanent) and about 3/4ths liter of Ehfisubstrat Pro. The nitrite level so far is zero. I'm also using 350 Ml's of Purigen in the filter and is doing a great job of keeping the water free of tannins. 

In my 15 gallon holding tub, I have only lost one cherry shrimp so far. Ammonia in the holding tank is zero, nitrate was .25 so I changed five gallons. I think all my plants are sucking up the ammonia in the holding tub. I REALLY need to wash all the old fluorite of all mulm and rootmedic osmocoat beads and set the old tank back up for the fish, black horned nerite snails and shrimp to live in while this one cycles. \


I appreciate the advice, suggestions and ESPECIALLY the pic where Kilroy drew circles and arrows. Keep the advice coming you guys, I can't do this would you!


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## Da Plant Man (Apr 7, 2010)

Fill up the aquarium more so that hard-water deposit stains dont form.

GREAT TANK!


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Well... with the scaping process I don't want to fill it up all the way because when its full it it spills out when I put my arm in... what with no rim and all ;P It's one gallon short of capacity. 

Thank you. I'm just waiting for anyone else to give me any critique on the stone placement before I plant.


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## Armonious (Aug 16, 2010)

Nice setup so far. I like the direction you are going. 

I would agree with what some of the others said in saying that the stones look small in the tank. I had the same problem in my 10gal that I'm hardscaping as we speak. In order to make the stones look more prominent, you can do a few things. It would be a bit inconvenient now that the tank is filled, but I think you would like the results. Anyway, here are my tips for making your stones stand out more:

1. Try increasing the slope that your substrate is at. I can't judge really how deep it is in the front, but by making the front about 1" in depth, I'm sure you could move much more to the back, which would make your main stone appear to be much higher within the tank.

2. On a related note, you can try making a mound of sorts where the grouping on the right is located. Have the highest portion of this extra substrate be right where you want the main stone to be located. Another benefit to this is that it will give your layout more complexity as the slope varies slightly throughout the tank.

3. Lastly (this is mainly for the main stone), you can try to see if you can pull any rocks that you want to look more prominent so that they are less buried in the substrate. Conversely, if you want to decrease the strength of another stone,simply push it into the substrate a bit more. As the hardscape stands right now, I think the stone in the right grouping which is farthest to the left could be pushed down a bit.

I was working through the same thing with my tank here earlier today, and while my layout is my no means set in stone (I am still waiting on some more seiryu), after I made the three alterations to my layout that I listed above for you, I really found myself liking the hardscape much more. I'm about to upload an image depicting the changes that I made in my layout, so maybe check out my thread in the aquascaping section and see a before and after shot (if I ever get it up, I keep finding threads like this one to post on) to decide whether or not you want to give my recommendations a shot.

Good luck with the tank and happy scaping,
Armonious


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

The rock on the left that you are referring to that should be pushed down a bit was originally not angled nearly as dramatically Do you prefer this instead?










I am speaking of the rock that is the second from the left side of the tank. I think that is the rock you said should be pushed down. The above pic is one from yesterday, not my tank as it is now. I was just wondering if that is the position you prefered that particular rock in by when you said "pushed down"

The plants I have to work with are
Didiplis diandra
Staurogyne repens
Pogostemon erectus
Downoi (I have only a few plants but want to propagate them and have plenty of downoi in this tank. This is my favorite aquatic plant)
Rotala rotundifolia normal (will likely not even use once the tank is cycled, since 'colorata' is nicer)
Rotala rotundifolia 'colorata'
Rotala macandra
Lobelia cardinalis 'Dwarf" (I love this plant almost as much as Downoi)
A very small amount of Glossostigma. I need to get more. I have my HC floating in tupperware waiting on someone with plenty of glosso to trade me for all my HC. 

I am on the lookout for Rotala 'mini butterfly'. I want to use this plant in this tank very badly. 

Someone sent me some rotala wallichii and limnophila aromatica as freebies. I dont think the Limniphila aromatica is small enough for a 60-P to look good, doesn't this plant get huge like Ludwigia inclinatis 'cuba'? I will likely just use the Rotala wallichii to suck up ammonia and will give it away once the tank is cycled. If Limnophila aromatica isn't a species that is too large for this tank, I may be interested in using it.


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## Armonious (Aug 16, 2010)

I was talking about possibly pushing down the rock that you angled upward recently, the rock which is closest to the middle in your layout. 

In the image you linked to in this most recent post, I do like the positioning better than how it was in the last image. If you angled the substrate back more, it may not even be necessary, as that rock will be visually lower in the tank while the main stone will be higher.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Ok, I see what you are saying, 

I am not going to worry about sloping because the slopes won't last hen I love back and forth back and forth back and forth between home and college. 

Let me reposition the rock, let the water clearly, take a pic and we will see


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)




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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Well, I'm done planting at three in the morning. Naturally, i think it looks like crap... Probably because some of the plants I used got beaten up in the mail. I think I have too many species... I dunno. I'll let everything grow in, become established, and re-assess how I feel. 

I loved the way my last tank looked before I tore it down when the 60-p got here, and felt the same way about it when I first started it: hated it. 

I'll post pics tomorrow when the water clears. Aquasoil is a dream to plant in compared to fluorite but it sure is messy.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Since there are no animals in there, I have cranked the co2 up enough to turn the drop checker totally yellow.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Slowly filling in. 

























0 ppm NH4
.25 ppm NO2

Almost done cycling! Why is my glosso growing up? It's under 150 watt HQI 12 inches above the tank. There is no way it doesn't have enough light. I am injecting 2.25 bubbles per second which keeps the drop checker yellow. Fertilizing daily micros and macros.


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

I say crank it up with no fauna! did the same with my mini-m while cycling, I cranked the bejesus outa that reg for two weeks and growth was phenomenal! 

The tank looks great! loving the hardscape..


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## malaybiswas (Nov 2, 2008)

justlikeapill said:


> here is was this morning:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks good. Unfortunately the clouding is something you have to deal with. I normally do not plant right after changing the hardscape. Let the filter run for 1/2 hr to catch all dust, then clean the filter (rinse) and then start planting. Takes a little bit of time but works pretty well.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Mott, i'm running 2.25 bubbles per second. By the end of the day the drop checker is lethally yellow.in the middle of the day it's bright lime green, at the beginning it's the regular green in the photo so it is cranked up lol. Light and co2 comes on at noon as of right now the lights and co2 have been on sox and a half hours and the drop checker is probably 2/3 yellow 1/3 green color. In other words mostly yellow but has some green. 

I keep the lily pipe outflow all the way down and as of yesterday moved the online co2 diffuser to the output instead of the input in hopes of culturing more bacteria in the canister.

My filter is a 2215 but I wish I had a 2217... I will either get a larger filter or a second 2215. I uave enough flow but id like more. 


Malaybiswas, that photot was taken rig after I filled the tank and was moving rocks around. It's an old pic and I have no problems with clouding. 


As of today the nitrite test kit says I have zero nitrites. Ammonia test kit says I have zero ammonia. I did each test three times to be sure, and compared them to the color of plain old distilled water with the reagents added. Exact same color. 

Is tank was cycled in five days. Incredible. Stability by seachem and soaking outside for a week doing 100% water changes, plus an established canister filter, plus 50% daily changes once it's in then tank is one he'll of a great for getting your tank with aquasoil cycled quickly! FIVE DAYS!!! The tests were the SAME color as the test results of distilled water!

FIVE DAYS lol. I will still wait about a week to put anything in... Five days just seems too short even if my tests say it's cycled.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Since testing three times all confirmed my tank was cycled, I decided to move everything from the holding tank to the main tank. In the holding tank the otos were not happy.... Didn't swim much, were very pale... Moved them last night and today they are very active, have regained normal color, and their gills are a little reddish and they are breathing a little fast but they are much better off now in the main tank. Swimming happily, eating, normal color, etc. I toned down my co2 to just under 2 bubbles per minute and moved the inline diffuser to the outflow side so I know I'm not overdoing the co2. I will wait a few days and increase the dose to the highest I can without stressing the fauna. 

I did one last 50% WC and added 250 mls of Seachem Stability last night all at once, to be on the safe side. I cleaned my canister filter to get rid of all the silt it had collected from the aquasoil, which was... A lot. I soaked my ehfimech and ehfisubstrat pro and the two blue corse sponges in Seachem Stability to try and boost the bacteria colonies, let it sit for an hour(which is what the time it tool to clean out the fifty fine filter pads that had collected all that silt) while occasionally stirring and put the filter back together, primed it, set it up and added the fish. I also moved the small HOB filter filled with BioMax from the holding tub onto the main tank and will leave it for a week... Just to be on the safe side.

Within an hour I had a bacterial bloom and the water was cloudy. When I woke up this morning at two (it was a long night, lol) the water was CRYSTAL clear, like air was in it and not water. Stability works. NH4 and NO2 still read totally zero. 

Today I added the shrimp. Only 13 red cherries out of fifty survived. It makes me sad that I lost almost $40 worth of shrimp.. Five horned nerites also didn't make it... Another $25 lost there. I am very sad about that. I am amazed all five otos lived.

One thing I don't get, though, is that flow in my filter is drastically reduced despite cleaning the ehfimech, coarse sponges, and fine filter pads. Nothing was changed and the order of the media was kept the same... It's primed properly.... But it was much faster when it was totally filthy. The impeller and impeller shaft is only a couple months old. The filter is silent. To experiment, I removed the fine filter pads, tourmaline, and 350 mls of purigen I had in there. So basically I tried running it with only a liter of ehfimech, half liter of ehfisubstrat pro, and two coarse sponges. The flow wasn't changed at all ao I put all this fine filter pads, tourmaline and purigen back in. The impeller assembly is clean, no kinks in the hoses, the hoses aren't longer than they have to be.... I don't get it. It's running at less than 100 gallons per hour. I'd say probably just 80 or 90 GPH. I don't get it.


Time to ask Santa for a new filter I guess. I thought he 2215 was too weak, anyway. Maybe get a second 2215 and have two filters for great flow and no dead zones, or a 2217, or an ecco pro 300 if i can find one. I had my eye on the Professional II 2026 or 2028 as well but heard a rumor that they were discontinued and replaced with much more expensive versions of the same thing. 

I'll post pics later.


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

Looking good so far! Cant wait to see this one fill in. Good work on the ada logo too. Id probably put mine in front too.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

I know I'm a hypocrite lol. I really had no clue how nice Ada tanks were until I got mine in person.

I had no idea they were, and not to be a fanboy or anything, exquisite. I think exquisite sums it up. I still think its hypocritical for having a logo on something called a "nature aquarium" and maybe i'm a hypocrite... But I'm ok with that. The craftsmanship is that good.

I did find that the edges of the glass weren't as clear as I expected, however. My goal is to eventually have everything Ada... I have the light and tank so may as well get everything else, too. I am having ADG order me a Green Drop with their next container and I'm going to hook it up to a peristaltic pump do autodose a solution of excel, Iron, extra K and extra Mg. Then I'll only have to worry about dosing nitrate and phosphate dry. 

This is the Green Drop. I hVe to pay a deposit on it and won't get it for two months but I'm excited! It will be awesome to use with a peristaltic autodoser!

http://adana.com.sg/productsimages/liquid system/greendrop/greendrop.jpg


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

Yeah, peristaltic pumps are next on my list. Dosing ferts is a PITA if you asked me. Thats why I got out of SW and here I am constantly testing and tweaking again anyway. I am also going to rig an auto water changer soon too. i like to look and not touch. Have you seen antbugs avitar? Thats my position too. Dont get me wrong, I love to tinker and get it just right (or wrong) but I hate the daily HAVE tos. Good luck with your new scape and keep the pics coming!


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## Armonious (Aug 16, 2010)

justlikeapill said:


> This is the Green Drop. I hVe to pay a deposit on it and won't get it for two months but I'm excited! It will be awesome to use with a peristaltic autodoser!
> 
> http://adana.com.sg/productsimages/liquid system/greendrop/greendrop.jpg


What exactlydoes the Green Drop do? I couldn't really tell from the images.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

The catalogue is very vague, too. Here is a pic of it being used with green brighty fertilizer.

http://i2.ebayimg.com/06/i/001/25/08/500e_35.JPG

It was explained to be as basically it working like an I.V. Dropper from what I'm told. You can use it to deliver smaller amounts of fertilizer than the brighty pump bottles deliver (I pump is one ml. So you may want less..) and if you're too lazy to pic up a bottle,you can just press the pump and it will go into the water, and if you want to deliver liquid ferts to the substrate it comes with a glass needle that connects via clear tubbing to the end of the green drop (which is already needle shaped) that you use to basically shoot up the substrate with fertilizer. 

I am going to use it with an auto dosing pump because it will look a lot nicer than a ghetto D.I.Y. Airline Hose delivering a solution of micronutrients and excel into the tank. With the green drop used with a peristaltic pump, a solution (I will be using excel, CSM+B, Potassium, and Magnesium as a solution) will be autodosed for me and drip out of this cool little glass trinket. I have looked and looked and I have never found a picture of someone actually using it in a real life setting, and the above pic is the only one I've seen and it's a demo pic from ADA. I'm sure on some Japanese forum there are reviews of it ajd pica of it being used but I don't know of any Japanese planted aquarium forums.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Here are some new shots. Last night after I added all the Seachem stability the water was clear for a while, then totally cloudy with a bacterial bloom (Seachem Stability is a solution of dormant bacerial spores that become active when added to the tank) and by today it is totally clear. 

The hang-on filter is filled with biomax and is temporary and just a safety precaution since the tank cycled so quickly. The intake of the lily pipe and the HOB filter are covered with pany hose and look like CRAP. I hate this aspect of shrimp keeping. I hate it. I found another dead shrimp today. 12 left so far... I'm sure more will die of the stress.




































I drilled the stand to have the light bar come straight up out of the top. I need to find a metal flange to put in the hole to make it look more polished.










I plan on doing the same for the filter hoses on the other side, I just havn't gotten around to it yet. 










I also found a piece called a hole plus made for plugging holes at home depot!!!! I have never seen anyone else use these before. I want to get some steel wool and brush my light bar to a shiny look. I don't know what grain to use. 











As you guys can see, the cord for my lighting fixture isn't secured nearly along the back of the light bar by clips. ADA supplies clips but they are made for their stainless steel light bar that is 1/2 inch in diameter. I chose to go with 3/4 inch diameter light bar for mine since it is not stainless steel but just electrical conduit. Does anyone know where I can find clips EXACTLY like the ADA cord clips but for my size light bar? I don't even know the technical name for these parts. I considered drilling a hole in the back of the conduit so you couldn't see it, then pulling the cord through the hole down the conduit and out the bottom, since the cord is detachable from the ballast. The plastic part on the end of the cord is larger than the plastic part of the cord that connects the ballast to the wall electrical outlet, so this seemed like more of a hassle than it's worth. I really need some of the clips exactly like the ADA ones but for my diameter pipe. 

Or dish out like $250 for an ADA light bar and that's not gonna happen ;P


I like this stand. It's large enough to allow me to drill holes for the light bar and filter tubes. I would like to sand it down, and paint it OR cover it with formica. That is a project for another time in the future, though. It's pretty rough around the edges if you know what I mean, and needs restoring. Or I could leave it and have a rustic contrast to the ADA aesthetic... but I'd rather not. 

Wish I had the skills to make a replica ADA stand but I can't even make a birdhouse.


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## guppy (Oct 30, 2004)

Looking good can't wait to see what it looks like grown in!


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## ddtran46 (Jul 8, 2008)

Any updates?

What's size of your lily pipes? 13mm?


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## FlSHRFun (Jun 26, 2010)

justlikeapill said:


> I drilled the stand to have the light bar come straight up out of the top.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I also used the exact thing to plug in the end of my conduit light stand. Really cleans it up.
I also drilled holes through my stand for my filter plumbing & CO2 tubing.
However, I did not drill a hole through the stand for my conduit light stand.
I simply attached it to the side of my tank with some conduit clamps.
Once you get the holes for the filter tubes, you're gonna' love it. Looks so much cleaner!


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

I drilled the holes for the filter pipes today  I didn't want to clamp it to the side of the stand with conduit clamps because I didn't want to look at the clamp, and because my stand has an edge that prevented the conduit clamp from being installed on the outside anyway. I just drilled and installed the conduit by clamping it on the inside.

I have looked everywhere for a grommet to clean up the hole, but can't find any that are metal and look "perfect."

I did a MASSIVE trim a few days ago. I would have taken a picture then, but I left the camera at out cabin. I whacked all the glosso down as much as I could, and cut everything else back by about half. I cut down my Staurogyne repens, all of it, to make up for some melted HC I sold someone, and I added some Ludwigia repens in the back left corner that I found in a ditch yesterday. 

I got rid of the Pogostemon erectus and in its place put Tonina fluviatilis. The downoi all died except one plant, which is doing poorly... the few leaves it has grown aren't curly, and it's just doing totally crappy. It is slowly making a couple baby plants at the base... maybe they will make it, or maybe it hates me soft water. 

I have learned how to grow plants well and fast, but now my aquascaping skills need work. A lot of work. These rocks don't work for this tank, at all. I need to find some good rocks of the appropriate size. I think plant arranging looks crappy, too... it looks too traditional (tall plants in back, middle plants in middle, short plants in the front)

It's not too bad for a beginner. I am pleased, but would love more advice. The five otos are still alive and fat, I have learned the intricacies of co2's affect on fish behavior and the subtle differences in drop checker color between the highest it can be while staying safe and too high, and the lowest it can be without being too low. Not much room for error with my lighting. 

I am very pleased with aquasoil. Extremely so. I also had to add a black background because back plants were all growing towards the wall! I used the same stuff I put the tank on (that foamy stuff garden mats are made of) that I got at walmart. This will have to do until I can order a real black background from ADG. 

The water isn't it's clearest because I just did my Sunday water change. 

























































Does anyone think this glass looks too green? I have been wondering if this is normal for the "clear" version of the 60-P... was I sent the wrong one accidentally?


























I am having a very hard time getting plants to redden up. The Rotala "colorata" is green, the Rotala macandra isn't as red as it should be, the Rotala wallichi (spelling?) isn't red/orange, and the Rotala rotundifolia is bright green. I have always dosed extra iron, I have a bottom layer of laterite (20 oz. I think) and I don't skimp on my micros. I have started dosing 1 dash of KNO3 three times weekly instead of two dashes three times weekly. It doesn't seem to have any affect, but I've only been doing it a week.

I had been dosing a dash of Potassium Sulfate to provide additional potassium, but cut that back down to a pinch (I misread the reccomended dose.) I also dose a pinch of epsom's salt along with my micros, because my water has a low GH and I'm assuming most of that is all calcium. The extra magnesium has almost no affect on my tank's GH, so I dose it just in case.

I have removed the glass cover on my HQI. This is all I know to do to try and bring out the reds, because I'm not going to lower the light since it's already 12 or 13 inches above the tank.

So.... what do you guys think? I could not have done it without this forum, Frank from ADG for his reassurance of my concerns and excellent customer service along the way, and Tom Barr for inventing his E.I. method. Thank all of you!


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## xJaypex (Jul 4, 2009)

Looking good man!

In answer to your pm, those toninas will grow in your tank. You got light, co2 and substrate covered so its all good. If you have soft water and it starts to melt, it also might be the temperature. Mine like cooler water, when i turn of chiller and forget about it mine tend to start melting.

As for the downoi, i had the same experience as you. My water has a ph of 5 and it started dying off but now it looks like its starting to grow in. It just takes time, quite a little bit of it too.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Thank you! I have an unheated tank. It goes up as high as 78 during the day (usually 76) and down to 72 at night. I think I might have to get a heater for the Oto's. I had german blue rams but got rid of them because they bored me to death, and I like shrimp better. They ate all but one cherry that managed to survive. 

My pH is 5, too, so it looks like I will have quite a bit of waiting. The irony is that all the healthy ones I had died, and the survivor was the crappiest out of all of them with no roots. 

Aquasoil puts heavily fertilized fluorite to shame. SHAME. I can't believe I ever wasted my money on fluorite. I'm using the old fluorite as a soil ingredient for my cacti now. 

Does anyone know where I can find clips like the ones that come with the ADA light bar, except in 3/4" size instead of 1/2 inch? I'd LOVE to buy some but can't find any. I don't know the industry name they go by so don't know where to start. ADA only makes them big enough to fit a 1/2 inch light bar.

I have decided not to do the liquid dosing at all, or use the green drop with an autodoser. I found it so much easier to just dry dose and have given up on stock solutions. I use a pill organizer and dump all my ferts in at once.


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## xJaypex (Jul 4, 2009)

Yeah you cant go wrong with shrimp . I keep my ottos in the low 70s, i didnt know they preferred warmer water. I dont think your water is that hot, i think my tank goes up to the mid 80s.


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

As an alternative to the clips, ive seen people use zipties. they come in all colors and sizes. the excess is easily clipped off the back. Just an idea. Looks great so far!


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Thank you. I don't think I'm going to go with zip ties because you would be able to see them, and the clips just snap on the back of the conduit so there is minimal visibility of both the clip and the cord. Since the cord is detachable I have considered drilling a hole and inserting the cord into the conduit (which is what conduit is for anyway lol) and snaking it down through the conduit and pulling it out a hole drilled out of the bottom, but that sure is a lot of work and the plastic piece on the end of the cord would need a good sized hole...

Searched home depot high and low and they had nothing. The supplied clips from ADA will fit but they snap off at the slightest provocation, and the Solar I it was a gift from someone who only used it for six months anyway so only two clips came with it and I lost one of those.


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## roybot73 (Dec 15, 2007)

justlikeapill said:


> ...I have removed the glass cover on my HQI. This is all I know to do to try and bring out the reds, because I'm not going to lower the light since it's already 12 or 13 inches above the tank.


The glass in an HQI fixture is there for 2 reasons.
1 -- It's there to protect the bulb from being damaged or splashed on. A good splash on a crazy hot HQI bulb would not be a good thing.
2 -- It's there to filter out UV rays.

I suspect your reds may not be "popping" because of the greenish spectrum those ADA bulbs cast.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

I know, it's a stupid idea. I'm at my wits end. Amano and others has no problem and uses this same light... i'm not doing something right. I'm removing the glass a the present time just so I can get extra U.V. which should make the plants more red by inducing them to make more anthocyanin, or that's my hypothesis at least. It's my understanding that the ADA light fixtures are actually under powered so I'm not worried about the safety concerns of UV, but I am going to be careful with splashing water. It'll make the bulb explode.

It's not that the reds aren't popping... it's that they are nonexistent  If I went to home depot and got a 1/8th inch sheet of glass cut to replace the 1/4th inch sheet that was in there, do you think it would break from the heat?


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## roybot73 (Dec 15, 2007)

I'd put the light back together the way it was designed to be and maybe look at another aspect of your dosing & maintenance regimen...


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Got any ideas? I follow E.I., add extra potassium 3 x weekly, extra magnesium 3x weekly, extra iron 3x weekly, cutting the nitrate levels in half didn't help,new ada aquasoil with laterite underneath, the light is only halfway through it's life expectancy, it's a foot above the tank, the glass was clean before I took it out, I keep the tank impeccably clean, there are no algae issues, low stocking levels, cycled, pressurized co2 on the high side of safe, adequate water flow (especially in the area where the red plants are), the light is perfectly situated directly above the tank and is level... Even when the white wall was reflecting light and the plants were growing towards it, they were green. The reflector is clean, the lamp its self is clean.

I don't see how I can improve on my dosing and maintenance regimen. If you have any ideas, I'd appreciate your help! I'm sick of this. The plants weren't green when I got them, and were grown in less light as far as wattage goes than I have now, and weren't from the very top of the tank or anything.


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## roybot73 (Dec 15, 2007)

I really don't know... I've never had the best luck with red plants -- I just grew the easier ones like Alternanther reineckii 

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&...snum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CB8QsAQwAA&biw=1393&bih=770


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## malaybiswas (Nov 2, 2008)

Hey checking back your thread after a while and while looking at the pictures once again, I just realized why your rocks look smaller. I am not sure if you created a slope with the substrate so everything looks like is sitting/growing on a level ground. Too late I guess, but adding a little bit more slope might just open up the layout much better IMO.

I'll have to critic on the plant choice though. It not clear to me on what type of scpae you are planning but I feel that the plant choice will hide the rocks even more very soon so either replacement of rocks (not all) with a couple of bigger pieces or reducing on the stem plants might create a better balance.

Sorry, no intentions to hurt your feeling and the tank really looks great, but those are probably some of the things I would do.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

No feelings hurt, that's why i made this journal.

I'm not going after an iwagumi or Dutch setup or anything, and i abandoned all hopes of maintaining slopes when I realized they wouldn't last since I have to move a few times per year as a college student. I don't really have a "plan" but have been kind of making plant choices and changes as I go along, with no real sense of direction. All I wanted was something presentable, and I believe I have accomplished that. With that goal met, I now want to try to develop my skill as an artist. I don't consider myself an artist or artistic, but I would like to become more artistic. I heard in one of the owners of ADG say in a podcast on Scape Fu that when tey were starting out, once they learned how to grow plants well, Amano told them they had talent but they lacked philosophy or something alone those lines. I think I have the science of plant growth down, now I need to develop the art of arranging them as well as scaping. 

I have been recovering from back surgery so I havnt been able to go hunt down rocks of the same type, or explore to try to find where I found these originally. These rocks are way too small and the size is too uniform. I have no problem replacing all or some of them. The focal rock formation sucks, and these rocks just don't work well. 

At first i loved the rocks and they stayed come hell or high water, but now I see why they don't work. I'm not much of an artist but I think that counts as some artistic skill development, right? Lol


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

The pics were bumped back to page three within an hour so I am just re-posting them...
The water isn't it's clearest because I just did my Sunday water change. 

























































Does anyone think this glass looks too green? I have been wondering if this is normal for the "clear" version of the 60-P... was I sent the wrong one accidentally?


























Constructive criticism is welcome.


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

That's the clear version - you can tell by looking at the seams (and we do not carry non-CLEAR versions of the ADA tanks anymore).

Our regime at ADG for dosing is this:

Daily: Brighty K x5 squirts, Green Brighty Step 1 x5 squirts

Weekly: 10-15 drops of ECA (and after water changes)

The 'red stems' after being trimmed will stay green for a week or two and then start coming out in brilliant reds.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

The increased UV didn't really affect anything at all... It didn't even matter. Noting seemed to benefit or be harmed by it, so I'm gouing to put te glassnback in. 


I upped the iron and micro dosing and got that thread algae that is caused by too much iron. Stopped that. It didn't matter anyway. 

Cutting nitrates didn't matter. 

I don't know what else to do except try the ECA by ADA to try and get my plants red. There is NO logical reason I am having such a hard time getting my plants red. Even when the Rotala Colorata and Ludwigia repens reached a couple inches from the top of the tank, they were green. 

The Ludwgia repens had a very slight blush of bronze. This is BS!

I rescaped the tank and took away the two smaller rocks, and decided to go with fewer species of plants. Just waiting for the water to clear.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Tore out all the glosso, sold it, want to replace it with HC. 

Got rid of the R. wallichii and R. macandra... they wouldn't turn red for me. I don't know why. I kept the L. repens and the Rotala colorata. They are both green. 

I don't understand. 


















































I broke my lily pipes and upgraded to an ecco 2236, which I love. I rescaped a little to add more slope (really does look better with slope.. I see it now) and got rid of the two small rocks, and tried to move the focus on the group of three rocks. I have ougt about covering the rocks in bolbitis but bolbitis seems too big for this tank.

I don't get it.... It just doesn't make sense. My light is a foot above the tank, E.I., extra iron, Aquasoil, patience, tried cutting the nitrogen dose in half, tried doubling the iron dose, tried doubling the micro dose as well, tried removing the glass on the light (getting desperate) and nothing matters. I even put down 20 ounces of laterite... 

It's L. repens and i cant get it red. That's pretty bad.the R. Macandra had red undersides and a red stem but green lamina on the leaves. Like seriously...


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## NickS (Oct 9, 2009)

I wish I had an answer to the red problem. I have some Sunset Hygro that likes to get just a tiny bit pink and then turn green no matter what I do.

I'm curious though, how did you break your lily pipes? I'm getting ready to order a set and wondering if they're really that fragile... might go acrylic if they are...


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

It was my fault. Too much pressure and I wasn't gentle enough. 

They are glass... I mean anything glass is fragile. They were the generic ones... I don't know if brand name ones use stronger glass. The thickness is pretty much the same.


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## NickS (Oct 9, 2009)

Did they break where the hose connects?


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

No, the intake broke where the pipe is cut to make a strainer when I knocked it against the glass trying to remove it. The outflow broke where it curves to go over the rim of the tank. 

It was all my fault... don't be afraid of getting lily pipes. They don't break by themselves, you have to break them. I'm klutz with everything really. Once I broke the outflow by cleaning it with a trombone snake. It wasn't flexible enough to make the curve and I would force it through. Worked several times before until one day.... Snap! 

I went with cheap crap from asia.... it probably wouldn't have broken if it was brand name. But maybe it would have. regardless it was my fault. 

After talking to Frank from ADG (Without his guidance along the way I wouldn't even be posting this, he is SO helpful and is why I choose ADG over aqua forest on every Amano product, that and the better shipping rates!) I ended up choosing to buy the violet glass inflow and outflow... ADG only had the inflow of the metal pipe and I didn't like the pinched look of the outflow on the metal pipe, anyway. For the cost of one inflow or outflow, I got a both violet pipes. I also got a spring washer... No more trombone snakes for me.

I'll be Honest, I don't like the way the violet pipe is so laterally compressed, but I do find it's side profile more appealing than the lily pipe which as a more obvious "neck" although the lily pipe makes a more gentle flow, I'd imagine. I am happy with my decision. 

They don't have the ada logo on them unfortunately... My my how I have changed since before I got my 60-P. I remember my rant about people leaving on the stickers, and now I am disappointed that my violet glass doesn't have the "ADA" logo on them. It's addictive.

The 2236 and the set of violet glass are my birthday presents for my 21st birthday. Pretty sweet, huh? My birthday isn't until Nov. 17th and it will be nice to sip on some Champagne and stare at my tank with my new pipes. So excited! 

I hope that the ECA I ordered brightens up my plants. If not I'll either trade/sell it or save it until my plants get sick or something.


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## phan10ms (Sep 7, 2009)

Glosso is just one of those plants that need more patience from trimming and new growth to appreciate the carpet effect it gives. Nice tank but I'm waiting for you to remove that ADA sticker or you are just eating your own words.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

justlikeapill said:


> Tore out all the glosso, sold it, want to replace it with HC.
> 
> Got rid of the R. wallichii and R. macandra... they wouldn't turn red for me. I don't know why. I kept the L. repens and the Rotala colorata. They are both green.
> 
> ...


I'd recommend: 
1. Check your nitrates; anything above 5ppm can lead to problems with red coloration (BTW, my API kit is off my 5 ppm)
2. Lower the light
3. Follow Francis's dosing suggestion; I've never done EI, but I'm guessing it could easily lead to very high N levels. In my high tech tank with lots of red plants, all I dose is Flourish comprehensive (.07-.01-33 + traces), Flourish Iron, and API leaf zone (0-0-3 + .1% FE). I'm guessing flourish comprehensive is similar to ADA Step 1 ferts.
4. Extend the photoperiod to 12-14 hours
5. Dose ADA Green Bacter; awesome for getting rid of nitrates; it's my favorite ADA product thus far because it's made all my tanks much healthier; smells like concentrated hot dogs.

Also, like me, you probably have rotala macandra 'green'. Mine is slowly turning pinkish red since I got my nitrates to zero (was 20 ppm).

I had similar problems as you with the reds, particularly with Ammania Senegalensis. Getting rid of the nitrates, dosing only trace amounts of N and extending the photoperiod has worked wonders for my red plants. Also, I now firmly believe that with any Aquasoil tank, you really only need to regularly dose K, FE and traces. 

PS- Blood mountain is awesome!!!!!!


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Oh I already ate them, It thought we established that lol. I had them with a baked potato and some Worcestershire sauce. 

Snausage, I can't really lower the light because it's already a foot above the tank and since it's metal halide, if I lowered it I wouldn't have an even spread and if water splashed the glass it might crack. 

When the photoperiod was at 12 hours it led to algae problems. The rotala macandra was a beautiful red when I got it. 

Why doesn't Tom Barr or anyone else have a problem? That's what I don't get. It took me a long time to get over my fear of adding nitrates to the tank and now I need to stop adding them? Eek. I cooed stop adding nitrate but would it still be ok to keep adding phosphate? If I mess with what I'm doing i want to only mess with one thing at a time. 

Blood mountain is just the sixth tallest mountain in Georgia. You should check out Brasstown Bald ;P


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

justlikeapill said:


> Why doesn't Tom Barr or anyone else have a problem? That's what I don't get. It took me a long time to get over my fear of adding nitrates to the tank and now I need to stop adding them? Eek. I cooed stop adding nitrate but would it still be ok to keep adding phosphate? If I mess with what I'm doing i want to only mess with one thing at a time.
> 
> Blood mountain is just the sixth tallest mountain in Georgia. You should check out Brasstown Bald ;P


Well have you actually tested your nitrate level yet? I really think that's the key to your dilemma. You can still add nitrates if you get a reading of zero. At 5-10 ppm, I'd say maybe dose it once per week and make sure you work on getting it lower.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Yeah, I'm one of those people who likes to test. 

When I had the most plants at once (remember I cut everything back a lot and removed the glosso) the reading was approx. 20 ppm at E.I dosage the day of dosing. At half the dose it was about 10 ppm. Didn't matter. It could have been 15 and 25 ppm for all I know. The test kit is hard to read. 

I hear people talk about how a level of 5 ppm can make some plants develop a deficiency and turn paler, and the increased red coloring is more like a lack of chlorophyll than anything else...

If the eca doesn't perform a miracle i can dose one pinch of KNO3 three times weekly. I think that's a quarter dose than what e.i. recommends.

All I have is shrimp and five otos so i can get the levels down as low as i want. There is no bioload that makes that difficult... It just seems like 5 ppm is so low. 

I will try it out at one pinch three times weekly instead of one-two dashes.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

justlikeapill said:


> . I cooed stop adding nitrate but would it still be ok to keep adding phosphate? If I mess with what I'm doing i want to only mess with one thing at a time.


Phosphate is important for red coloration too. I'd say try to maintain your P level around 1.5 ppm.

5 ppm of nitrate is fine. IME, 5 ppm NO3 is ideal; I've never noticed any stunting or paler colors at this level. I don't know why people are always so concerned with maintaining high N levels.

Check out skewlboy's tanks. He gets ridiculous red coloration with low/no nitrate and tweaking his P levels.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Well, I Figured it out... Or rather Frank at ADG did for me.

I was given this lighting fixture as a gift and assumed it had the regular ADA lamp since I got it used but otherwise in perfect condition. It was only used for six months then sat in a basement for years. 

I had seen NAG on the hqi tube before but thought it stood for "Nature Aquarium Goods" but it means "Narure Aquarium Green" while the regular one is labeled NAMH for "Nature Aquarium Metal Halide" Frank told me to check my tube and look for NAG and told me what it meant. 

I have been using the green lamp this entire time, and not understanding why my plants are so green and won't turn red.

I feel stupid but I am so glad I know the problem!

If anyone is wanting to try out the ADA green metal halide lamp, these pictures show you what you'll get. Don't buy it if you want replants to show their colors. It does a great job as showing off green colors, though.


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## roybot73 (Dec 15, 2007)

Not to be "_that guy_", but I mentioned this in post #43 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1170375-post43.html


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

I know that the ADA brand of lamps has a greenish hue. The regular one has a greenish hue, but ADA also makes a lamp with even MORE green than the regular lamp, which is already heavy on the green.

The problem was that this entire time I assumed I had the normal ADA hqi lamp, when in reality I had the version with EXTRA green. This is what was so frustrating.... Because in pictures of other peoples tanks using the regular ADA hqi, as well as Amanos pics, there were still deep red plants. I thought I was using the same lamp, but it turns out I was using the green lamp.

When the lamp first fires, it makes the plants looks like they have soaked up the fluid in glowsticks! Looks radioactive lol.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

justlikeapill said:


> Oh I already ate them, It thought we established that lol. I had them with a baked potato and some Worcestershire sauce.
> 
> Snausage, I can't really lower the light because it's already a foot above the tank and since it's metal halide, if I lowered it I wouldn't have an even spread and if water splashed the glass it might crack.
> 
> ...


New ADA As is loaded with N................after it drains off............then you get the redder colors. Might take a few months. Neil Frank and I have grow R. mac at 2-3w/gal of old T12 lights, perhaps 1/2 the PAR you have. 

Fe is not going to do a whole lot for color.
General growth, but not color. Reds come from pigments that lack any Fe, some enzymes that make some plant products use Fe, but most are used in redox and electron transfer in photosynthesis light dependent stages.

Lower limiting N= less growth, so you waste light/CO2 as a result.
This limitation causes more red indirectly............by reducing the amount of Chl a and b in the plant tissue, so the plants are not as Green, and the then the red color from anthocynins are no longer masked as much.

Thus "red color" is a sign of N deficiency/limitation in aquatic plants.
It works, but better/easier to manage at lower/slower rates of growth, since it is easier to balance the limitation without crashing the system and going to serious N limitation. This is why I can get away with less light and get better reds, more consistency just like Neil and I did 15 years with pissy T12 home job lights.

I honestly do not worry much about color.
I just grow plants and do it with management methods like lower light + good CO2, good nutrients to both the sediments and the water column.
I also have lots of fish in my tanks. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

justlikeapill said:


> I know that the ADA brand of lamps has a greenish hue. The regular one has a greenish hue, but ADA also makes a lamp with even MORE green than the regular lamp, which is already heavy on the green.
> 
> The problem was that this entire time I assumed I had the normal ADA hqi lamp, when in reality I had the version with EXTRA green. This is what was so frustrating.... Because in pictures of other peoples tanks using the regular ADA hqi, as well as Amanos pics, there were still deep red plants. I thought I was using the same lamp, but it turns out I was using the green lamp.
> 
> When the lamp first fires, it makes the plants looks like they have soaked up the fluid in glowsticks! Looks radioactive lol.


Let the red stem plants reach the surface and grow over for awhile. They should color up after a few weeks, months. The CO2 from the air, intense light and rich sediments should spur growth rates higher.

Just wait a bit.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

So I have to let the stem plants reach the surface, then let them overgrow the top of the tank for a few weeks to a few months before I see red?

That sounds like a salad but I will do as you say. 

What do you recommend I do in regards to dosing nitrogen and E.I.? Should I dose little (dosing a pinch right now which is a quarter of that the fertilizing sticky recommends) to make the plants uptake all the nitrogen from the aquasoil sooner or should I dose a dash like I was dosing, or two dashes like the sticky says? 

I want to replace this lamp in december or January as by that time it will have had one year of use (I'm disregarding the time spent in the basement, and I cant afford it now anyway.)

I was thinking of going with either the regular ada lamp because i like the way it looks in other people's pics, or the Ada 10,000K hqi they have. Tom, you really know your stuff... Can you recommend another brand for the same or cheaper price (like $95 or less) that would balance optimum growth with good aesthetics? 10,000K is my preference but most have a blue tint, some wash out colors... I want a well balanced light that is brigt and white.

I have a feeling that even the ADA 10,000K lamp would have a green or blue hue to it.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

snausage said:


> Phosphate is important for red coloration too. I'd say try to maintain your P level around 1.5 ppm.
> 
> 5 ppm of nitrate is fine. IME, 5 ppm NO3 is ideal; I've never noticed any stunting or paler colors at this level. I don't know why people are always so concerned with maintaining high N levels.
> 
> Check out skewlboy's tanks. He gets ridiculous red coloration with low/no nitrate and tweaking his P levels.


So do I without limiting N, and without high light.

Simply because someone gets results, does not imply the logic to the real cause. we also do not know the total N supplied to the plants, since sediment is not/ever measured..........sort missing the other 1/2 of the real picture.

I dose 15ppm 3x a week, NO3, 5ppm of PO4 3x a week, lots of Fe, and I have larger well fed fish loads than 99% of the posters here and they breed.

Does this imply this is the way to success?
No, but it shows that it can be done well with higher NO3, PO4, Fe, lower light........and with fish.

So it raises question as to whether N or NO3 in the water column is really that critical, assuming that 5ppm is really being present and it is not just a testing error/lack of calibration.
I'm not too clear if that has really been done well(testing).
Most just spot check at best, few ever do time series test.
Ask and see.

He has ADA AS, no fish............

Few folks measure NO3 that critically, and you need to include the contribution from the fish waste that is rarely if ever measured as NO3, let alone sediment.

N is not easy to track in other words.
And why not pick on high excess light, why focus so much on nutrients?
There's plenty of evidence to suggest the counter to this whole train of reasoning. Maybe t is just color photography and having enough light to reflect the color back, not much else?

Some bulbs give off more red, Gieseman, GE 9325K, Triton from the old days, maybe............ADA's regular color vs extra green?

Could be.

I've seen evidence of this when measuring PAR and getting different colors in my own different tanks but adjusted for the same PAR.

So intensity was independent, sediment, NO3 was non limiting and thus independent, CO2 etc..........

We know much less than we like to think we do. But we can rule some assumptions out here or there if we are lucky and think.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

I put a pc light over it that's like 4,000 k. There was a big increase in red, but nothing to write home about at all. Still under colored for R. colorata in my opinion... and it's just the tips. 

Under the extra green ada light, it was totally green. No hint or trace of any color other than green. Totally green. The light played a role, but obviously there is something else going on. 










I was not aware that I had so much algae on the old leaves of my S. repens until I put this 400 light over it (it was a fixture with three 26 or 39 watt PC's.) Under the extra green ADA light, the algae must not be as noticeable and must blend into the leaves more because of the extra green spectrum in the light. I don't like having a band-aid over a problem and not even knowing about it.


FWIW I calibrated my test kits according to Hoppy's instructions. They are accurate. 

Tom, if non-limiting nitrogen doesn't have an effect on color, why do you say to wait until the nitrogen content in the aqua soil goes down and then when its lower the plants will become more red? I just don't get how having an excess of nitrogen in the substrate will make the plants more green and less red, but dosing E.I. and providing plenty of nitrogen to the water column and using old aquasoil without the intial high nitrogen levels will make them red.... I don't get this. 

You also say why focus so much on nutrients, why not pick on high excess light... You yourself have measured ADA light levels and said they aren't as high as people think and fall into the low-medium range as far as PAR goes. So given that, I do not have excess light, but even if I did why would excess light cause plants to be green and not allow the accessory pigments like anthocyanin to redden up the plants?


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## chilled_fire (Jun 4, 2010)

wow ! thats a nice tank setup you have got there looks like from ADA gallery the pics on the prev page look really nice why did you break that down ?


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Thank you (I think? lol)

I sold all the glosso for $30 so I went out and bought $30 worth of HC that should be here tomorrow to plant. The glosso and Staurogyne repens blended together too much because of the large glosso leaves compared to HC leaves, which should clearly show a distinction between where the HC is and where the S. repens is. Since I ripped up all the glosso, it really disturbed the substrate, and since the substrate was already disturbed I decided to go ahead and rip it all out, slope the substrate (it was pretty much flat before) and remove the two smaller rocks and move the big rocks together, that way there was one focal point instead of two.

I ordered a poppy glass inflow and a violet glass outflow so that will replace the ugly eheim green pipes. Once the plants all grow in it will look good again, dont worry! I think the original layout lacked a lot.

I also decided to replace the L. repens with rotala "mini." I removed the rotala wallichii because I didn't like it and it waved in the current too much and was too floppy... The R. macandra was removed because I couldn't get it red enough and it's leaves were too big. I would like to repalce it with rotala "mini butterly." I'm getting. L. "Patanal" and don't know where to put that. Any ideas?

I'm regrowing a sole surviving downoi plant that I didn't think would matter. At some point I'd like to have downoi in there and plenty of it. I might replace the lobelia with Downoi totally. I'd also like to have an eriocaulon or three.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

plantbrain said:


> So do I without limiting N, and without high light.
> 
> Simply because someone gets results, does not imply the logic to the real cause. we also do not know the total N supplied to the plants, since sediment is not/ever measured..........sort missing the other 1/2 of the real picture.
> 
> ...


Thanks for be gentle Tom; I though you were going to excoriate my statements, lol.

However, I have noticed that a lot of folks on this forum who dose EI per your standard regimen seem to have difficulty with red plants. _Tom Barr_ can obviously grow any plant with optimal health and coloration using EI, but I think less experienced hobbyists will inevitably encounter some difficulties with the 'difficult' plants.

I totally agree that NO3 is pretty much impossible for the hobbyist to test accurately. My opinions on NO3 affecting red coloration and growth were primarily formed through my own experiences and from the plant profiles on aquatic plant central.

Clint, I'm glad that you've resolved the lighting issue and overall, your plants look very healthy. You'll surely have an excellent tank in a month or so.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

snausage said:


> Clint, I'm glad that you've resolved the lighting issue and overall, your plants look very healthy. You'll surely have an excellent tank in a month or so.


Thank you. I will follow your nitrate dosing advice, still.


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## skewlboy (Jul 23, 2006)

I'm running super low N as a necessity in my CRS tank - just know my phos is higher and my light is much higher than some (192 w over 40 gal). Not sure what the soft water aids with in color but see some people with same setups (wpg) and not as much color. Tom would be better able to tell you about diffusion of CO2 in soft vs harder water so maybe it is a co2 diffusion question. 

My planting is HEAVY- many plants competing for the same nutrients. 

I do see a difference when I dose or do not dose iron in color of my tanks. I ran my tank for 1 mo without iron (even assuming it was bound/chelated somewhere) and saw a definate decrease in vibrancy of color - then started to dose again and noted a pop in the red/orange colors. Feed kept the same and with only shrimp not much of a bioload. All other things kept constant - but once again - no data. 

I'm not scientific about it, and I know I run more wpg than some - the high light probably makes the other plants take up the N that remains and I get color. I'm also much closer to the water surface and thus the plants than you are with your hanging light. If safe may try to lower the light closer to the plants to get more intensity. 

careful with the light - if not balanced (co2, fert, light)- you will grow some very pretty algae - but that's usually green


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

I had actually lowered the light two inches because the bulb is old only has a couple months of time left on it before it needs to be replaced...it also set in a basement for years unused but I don't know if that affected the bulb or not. The arc is starting to turn black at the ends. I will either go with the regular Ada lamp or try out a 10,000K lamp when I replace the hqi in december or January. 

Now that I know I have been using the Ada lamp that has added green, I will raise it back up two to where it was at before (12 inches from the surface)

Lowering a metal halide to less than ten inches above the surface is not a good idea. If water splashed on the uv shield which is very hot, it could crack and break. If that were to happen while I was away (it's not uncommon for me to go away for a week or so at out cabin in the mountains) and a drop of water managed to hit the hqi lamp it's self now unprotected by glass, two things could happen. One is that the entire lamp would break and need replacing and that is the best case scenario. The worst case scenario is that the quartz casing breaks but the arc is unaffected and continues to operate. If that were to happen a LOT of UV radiation would go into the tank and fry all of my plant a and fish. 

I have seen a case where just that happened.... Water broke the outer part of the hqi but the arc kept on burning. A lot of coral was totally killed. Ira fae more likely that the whole Hqi lamp would just blow up break though.

Besides lowering it to less than ten inches, even if safe, heats up the water and wouldn't spread the light evenly. Ten inches is the minimum safe distance to lower a metal halide, with 12 or more inches being better. Higher than 15 inches doesn't produce that super-bright appearance that I am fond of.


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## skewlboy (Jul 23, 2006)

I have never used halides for plants so I can't speak as to safe distance. Don't burn the house down.


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## chilled_fire (Jun 4, 2010)

justlikeapill said:


> Thank you (I think? lol)
> 
> I sold all the glosso for $30 so I went out and bought $30 worth of HC that should be here tomorrow to plant. The glosso and Staurogyne repens blended together too much because of the large glosso leaves compared to HC leaves, which should clearly show a distinction between where the HC is and where the S. repens is. Since I ripped up all the glosso, it really disturbed the substrate, and since the substrate was already disturbed I decided to go ahead and rip it all out, slope the substrate (it was pretty much flat before) and remove the two smaller rocks and move the big rocks together, that way there was one focal point instead of two.
> 
> ...


Well thats a lot of planning  but sounds good...
As for HC are u planning to grow them submersed ? after going throught this forum and my past experience in Singapore HC grows the best emersed.
Not sure if its possible now but best of luck ! hope you get a nice carpet !
Also i noticed that HC grows real well with nice dose of CO2 which I am pretty sure you already know 
Bout R. macandra i was talking about it at the Pacific shop in manhattan, and how red they looked in the shops tank 
I guess patience is the key with planted tank :tongue:
Ditto bout the Eheim pipes why cldnt they make it transparent ? the green color looks odd ..

Hope to see ur new setup soon !

PS: frm whr did u get the HC i might need them in a few weeks.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

I am planning on growing the HC submersed, yes... Its an aquarium lol. Maybe you meant to ask if I'm planning on growing it out dry then adding water? I've already got fish, shrimp, otger submersed plants in there so it's not really possible to do that. It is already in its submersed form, anyway. I got it from Gordon Richards.

I have wondered about why eheim chose green... I guess its just. Marketing decision to keep making them green. If you see an ugly green pipe or spray or hosing, you know its an Eheim regardless of whether or not you see the logo.

The rotala macandra was really too large for my tank anyway... I'm trying to go with small leaves plants in an attempt to make my yank look larger, so thats partly why I chose to replace the glosso with HC.


How do you like your 2236? I am running the same filter on this tank.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Added some HC, mini rotala, and Ludwigia 'Patanal' today. 









































I'm still waiting on my glass pipes to come, and can't wait until they get here. 

I LOVE Tonina fluviatilis. It is going very well in my tank! When I go back to college and I test my tap water to see what it is, if it turns out to be too hard I will buy an RO filter just for this plant! 
So far only three out of fourty cherry shrimp have died, and when they died it was during acclimation. So far they are molting and all active and doing well!

I love my new fabco needle valve... growth is faster and there is less algae now that my co2 is consistant and i don't have to tinker with it constantly because of a crappy milwaukee needle valve!


I tossed in a week's worth of fertilizer and left for a week. Much to my surprise this is what I cam home to! I wonder why I can't dose all my ferts at once weekly....


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Here it is now, with the new pipes. I don't like the violet outflow... it either causes a lot of surface agitation and gasses off co2, or causes no surface agitation. The violet outflow is the medium sized one, because ADG was out of the small sized ones so I went with this. the violet outflow makes a STRONG current that is directed downward. It actually vibrates because the water flow is so strong. You can see it! Maybe it's just my filter. I'm not really digging it, probably because I got the size larger than I wanted but I LOVE the poppy inflow! It's awesome and inconspicuous! the bulb on the bottom has very small slits, but to be honest it looks very very fragile and looks like it could snap off if you accidentally banged it against the glass while adjusting it. I recommend it over the violet intake. I actually think it looks less conspicuous than the ADA lily pipe inflow. 

My shrimp are going nuts over ADA shrimp food. Absolutely nuts. They wouldn't touch Mosura... at all. They picked at cichlid pellets a little bit but they didn't really care. That tells me a lot about ADA shrimp food, and I'm not just being a fanboy. Maybe there is cocaine in the ADA food? I'm not kidding about this stuff. They are in a frenzy. I was a doubter myself until I tried it. I thought it was all BS but I was wrong. 

I have green spot algae on my Lobelia and my Staurogyne repens but no other plants. I don't know why. It's always been there, forever. It really annoys me. 












































































































































I love these pics...This isn't after a water change or anything and no other plants were doing this. Either the co2 mist is sticking to it or it's intense pearling. Either way it's awesome.


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## chilled_fire (Jun 4, 2010)

looking good  
i see some HC on the rocks (lol, HC on the rocks, lame joke).
is the soil also there ? cause once it fills in there its gona look really nice,
As for the pipes , anything is better than Eheim  and looks like you have got a nice flow now.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

It is better than eheim lol. I see that the small lily pipe, the one I would want to exchange this one for as well as pay the difference, is just $85 at ADG but they are out of stock...

The HC on the rocks is just stuck in some holes in the rocks with no soil. I have more places on the rocks to but more HC but I'm going to see if this works before I do more. I think if it works it will make it look aged.

I love these rocks but wish they were twice their size. I found the place where I found them on the shore of a lake near our cabin, but the water was up and I couldn't collect. I have to wait until the water goes down. I wonder what type of rock they are? They don't affect water chemistry at all. I busted one open and it had tiny crystals inside and some areas were greenish color, some were yellowish like sulpher and some areas inside were sort of pink. 

Interesting rocks. I just love them. I need more aquasoil so elevate them and make a bigger slope in the tank.

One other thing I did was lower the light by four inches... So the light is 8 inches off the surface. These is two inches closer than the minimum recommended distance for metal halides in general. I have to be very careful of splashes.

To be stupid and give me peace of mind, i squirted water on the glass shield of the light to see if it could withstand a splash.... I just had to know! No harm done at all and the water sizzled and evaporated. The four inches closer to the plants is really bringing out my reds. There is now much less light that is wasted by hitting the wall, reflecting and causing the plantz t grow towards the white wall. Now with the closse light they aren't doing that.

I also started dosing the ADA ECA today.


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## chilled_fire (Jun 4, 2010)

^^^ yes the tank looks empty now , but i guess need to wait till the plants fill and grow ... patience i guess 
any plans of drift wood ? a nice one from the right side of the tank flowing outward from the rocks would look nice .


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## rickztahone (Jul 20, 2009)

tank looks great! I was actually looking at that shrimp food, and was debating on that or the Mosura since i got a small sample package and my shrimp loved it. I currently feed Shirakura and my CRS and RCS both go bananas over it as you described for the ADA shrimp food.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

thank you! I need all the positive criticism I can get lol. I am trying to develop my artistic side and find my own philosophy. I was sitting in front of the tank today and it was sort of like meditation.... I "get" the concept of "Nature Aquarium" now, I think. It's not a fish tank... it's a slice of nature, and a whole ecosystem... It was a very zen like experience for me. 


The ADA shrimp food is... cute. The small $10 bottle looks like the bottles the tic-tacs come in lol. Each wafer is about the size of a chiclet, but flat. 

Mine had 48 wafers in it. If I feed a wafer a week that's about 48 weeks worth of food, so the $10 really isn't bad. I really suggest you try it. 


















I'd like to stick some Crypt. parva in there in random places. I want a messy, wild look (but NOT the overgrown jungle look that people who are too lazy to keep up with pruning get!)


Chilled fire, I may get driftwood if I can't find the perfect rocks I want. I like tanks with rocks and I like tanks with driftwood, but I don't like it when driftwood and rocks are both used in the same scape. Just my preference.


I want more fish. I am thinking of buying ten pygmy cordydoras and several more otos. I think that this would be OK... the bioload would be pretty high but they are all small fish, the tank will grow in and become heavily planted, and I've got a great overkill filter so I think that it would be OK... especially since I wouldnt even have to feed the otos.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

Whoa, let me know when you have some tonia stems available.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Well... they were twice that size and I cut them in half and planted the tops that you see. The bottoms all died and got covered in algae and I don't know what went wrong with them. 

I don't really know how to propagate the tonina.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

I am learning more about how to use co2. I discovered that a higher bubble rate (2 bubbles per second in my case) combined with enough surface agitation to make a pleasant noise and make bubbles in the take makes the plants pearl like crazy, the fish and shrimp are more active, and the drop checker is a perfect Kelly green! I am learning more about the "balance" ! 

I returned the violet outflow. It was too large and the way it is designed to work is not what I want. I will buy a real lily pipe p-2 bit have to wait until ADG gets their shipment in from japan.

Super excited to have a real lily pipe and a silver box!


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## ddtran46 (Jul 8, 2008)

Did you check if AFA's site have the lily pipes you are looking for?


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## JCoxRocks (Mar 22, 2005)

Wow dude. You really went all out. I just read this journal from start to finish and I feel like a super noob now.

Keep it up. I'll be watching!

J


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Ddtran, I don't really like AFA's customer service, shipping rates/options, and if I return something to ADG (thank god I kept the packaging in perfect condition) I don't get credit for AFA ; ) 

J, I'm just as much of a noob as you think you are lol. Good at keeping plants (terrestrial) good at keeping but when I put the two things I was good at I had a steep learning curve that you never saw in is journal lol. Plus I've got my roots in saltwater which is the total opposite of plants..... It's also twice as easy and twice as expensive.


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## ddtran46 (Jul 8, 2008)

justlikeapill said:


> Ddtran, I don't really like AFA's customer service, shipping rates/options, and if I return something to ADG (thank god I kept the packaging in perfect condition) I don't get credit for AFA ; )



Got it...Now I know where to buy my ADA equipments from. lol


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## Matty (Dec 4, 2009)

This tank makes me want to go rimless.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

You should. This is what I had before I got my 60-P. To be honest, I like the hardscape more.... a lot more. But that's because this tank was 12 inches tall instead of 16 (or 14.. whatever the 60-P is) so the rocks are appropriately sized. If ADA made a tank that was 12 inches tall, 24 inches long and 12 inches wide (or 14 would be better!) I'd get one in a heartbeat. 










I guess I like the way this tank looks more... probably because I made it the way I wanted it instead of trying to make it the way Amano San says it is supposed to be. 

Something for everyone to think about.

Since I am talking about my old tank, as you can see I have fluorite in there. Before this, the fluorite was pretty much saturated with miracle grow because I used it to grow emersed plants. There are twenty four root medic root tabs under there, and a couple tablespoons of both macro and micronutrients under there and some root medic iron capsules. With all of this fertilizer, the aquasoil makes my old substrate system look like a JOKE.

Here is the rimless tank again so you can compare it to the old rimmed tank:


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> I don't really like AFA's customer service...


 same here...I tried to get them to sell me some stone but it was like pulling teeth.


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## Matty (Dec 4, 2009)

justlikeapill said:


> You should. This is what I had before I got my 60-P. To be honest, I like the hardscape more.... a lot more. But that's because this tank was 12 inches tall instead of 16 (or 14.. whatever the 60-P is) so the rocks are appropriately sized. If ADA made a tank that was 12 inches tall, 24 inches long and 12 inches wide (or 14 would be better!) I'd get one in a heartbeat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're right, the height of you new tank really does play a factor in the size, or the perception of the size of the rocks.

Still looks great though.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

So I found the place where I got my original rocks, and went rock collecting. I brought back way more than enough but I like to have options. For scale, these are the top and bottom boxed the cube carden 60-P came in.


























































































These rocks have little tiny crystals in some of them... I think that they had garnets formed in them because there are red areas in some of the rocks, and in some areas on some rocks it looks like there was a matrix where garnets formed and popped out. Also, the lake they come from is known locally for a great place to hunt garnets. These rocks also don't affect water chemistry, and if they do it's undetectable to my test kits. I love this "Species" of rock.



Cleaned and ready for a makeover. I ALSO got a new ADA 8000K light to replace the green version. So glad to get rid of the green ADA light. Hate it.










Temporary holding tank for the livestock... notice the elegant yet functional stainless steel filter stand, with convenient carrying handles. It's a pot.

Powersand, also laid down a few teaspoons of bentonite clay on the bottom










Aquasoil mixture... It's two and a half gallons of substrate on top of two liters of aquasoil. The substrate is like... 6 liters of powder type, 22 oz. of Laterite I laid down originally and regret because it sticks out like a sore thumb, a pound of tourmaline crushed into sand and crystals, and there is 100 ml's of Matrix carbon in there I laid down originally. I did not care enough to seperate everything out and that would degrade the aquasoil anyway. 










These are my favorite rocks... dunno which ones I will use yet, or how I will use them. I'd like to use two of the three rocks I already have... dunno if they will work out though.


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## chilled_fire (Jun 4, 2010)

^^^ Are those Lava rocks ? they look really nice , and you got them for free ? i had to pay 20 bucks to get some of mine


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

No they aren't lava rocks.. they are like sedementary and eroded by wind, water, and other rocks/sand I guess? I got them from Lake in North Georgia. 


Here it is as of now.... please someone with experience help me tweak the layout. Let me know if any tilting or moving is necessary, but I want to keep the layout more or less like this. 

I think I am improving in my aquascaping skills... I didn't measure meticulously or anything but tried to eyeball things and not spend too much time putting it together.... I think Amano mentioned you shouldn't spend too much time or else it loses some sort of aspect or something zen like that.


All of the other rocks you guys saw... if anyone wants them send me a PM.


edit: I can get better suggestions with clean glass...


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

Now you're learning! Always bring way more than you think you need so you have options!

Make sure the front substrate line is straight and even.

I would add more height / angles to the rocks, as is they're all laying fairly flat, which if it's the look you're going for, great, but know that most will inevitably be covered by plant growth and become almost invisible. Utilize angles to give the overall layout more impact. Aside from that take the small stones you have and use them in between larger stones. Inevitably they will be covered by plants, but the small stones are still absolutely key in making the layout have punch.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Everything. Dead. 

I have a few cherry Shrimp left... They will die soon I'm sure. Did a 100% WC. Ammonia and nitrite both read zero.

I don't know what went wrong. I acclimated everything via a drip for three hours... Co2 wasn't even connected...

Like 50 shrimp, ten Pygmy corydoras, five otos, all gone.

I'd be pissed if I wasn't taking Valium for my back muscle spasms anyway.


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

Man that sucks. Did they die in the pot or did they die when you put them back in the tank?

I had almost all my livestock die when I was in between tanks. They were in a bucket with a powerhead but the powerhead got disconnected from it's power so there was no water movement. Most of my green neons died because they didn't have any oxygen.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

They were all dead the morning after I added them to the tank. Filter was splashing water so there was oxygen...

dunno. I did a 100% WC just now and we will see. I have a few older shrimp still swimming around.

Someone owes me 25 shrimp that I just asked them to send me... so no big loss. I am pissed that all of my pygmy corydoras died but... c'est la vie.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Dang man. Sorry for your loss. I highly reccommend getting a Red Sea freshwater laborette with the chlorine test in it. Also pick up some Prime or Amquel Plus. It seems excessive until you lose a tankload of fish to a chloramine spike in your tap water. Not that I'm certain but it sounds like that's what happened. Sorry man!


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## xJaypex (Jul 4, 2009)

Did you made sure those rocks were clean and safe?

You redid your tank and added the livestock in the same day?


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Rocks were clean and safe. I redid the tank and added the livestock the next day, so the livestock was in a holding tank with the filter on it overnight and the display tank had a seperate filter on it to clean the water of dust.

My well water has no chlorine but I add prime anyway... I used the same media that was in there, the new rocks were very clean and of the same type as I already had and are inert, e only thing new was the addition of two liters of powersand under my old aquasoil... But my test kits are good and say there is no ammonia or anything.

The only chemicals I used to clean the tank were water, a mr. Clean magic eraser (love these things) and rubbing alcohol that I wiped it down with .... And the alcohol evaporated long before anything was added to the tank... It was like 97% or 93% alcohol and the rest was water, no oils or anything. The magic erasers are just melamine foam and I use them all the time, and my tap water is perfect.

I also added two liters of rinsed new bio rio to my canister, but kept the 500 mls of ehfisubstrat pro and filter pads that were already in there. All I did was remove the purigen temporarily to make room but that should not have caused this.

Unless I got a tainted batch of bio rio I can't think of anything that would kill everything, and I doubt that the bio rio was tainted lol. My ammonia and nitrite were all zero before the big wc i did, even with dead fish lying around on the bottom. 

I did another 100% WC so whatever was in there must be gone now.... I have one surviving amano shrimp and like three cherry shrimp that look like they MAY make it.

I ak very saddened about the cories


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## chilled_fire (Jun 4, 2010)

^^^ Sorry about your loss , i totally understand how it feels when ur so excited about the newsetup and everythings just dies out the next day ! Sucks !
Am also guess ing the rocks might be leaking out something. Since you have already tested everything even i am not sure what.
Did you test the water immediately after the WC ?


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

I tested everything before, during and after everything. I like to test lol. 

The rocks are totally inert and don't leech anything, I am positive. I've used the same rock from the same exact place before. Even kh and gh were unaffected. Washed them very, very well and scrubbed them with a new brush, too.

Here are the new tank pics. I added ten Amano shrimp today after I did two 100% water changes and cleaned the filter. Somehow I managed to cram 350 ml's of Purigen in the filter, and that combined with the oak charcoal (I think it's oak?) in the 2 liters of Bio Rio I put in the filter should remove whatever contaminated the tank. 

Or maybe all my fish and shrimp just died of stress... who knows. I can't cry over spilt milk. 

I have some Ludwigia 'Patanal" in there behind the rock on the left side, but you can't see it. Too short for now. I need more aquasoil to fill up some spaces I had to make in order to make the rocks stay at those angles. I had to place smaller rocks under them for support. I added Alternanthera reineckii behind the biggest rock for color and height and it was an impulse buy at the LFS. It may be replaced with L. aromatica in the future... who knows.

I think the largest rock needs to be angled up more. Anyone have any other suggestions? 

OH! And I love the new ADA 8000K metal halide. It still hasn't burnt in yet but so far I like it. I will show the green version over the same tank after I upload the new pics. 


































Here is the color the old green version of the ada light made everything:









I would like to get some Anubias nana var "petite" and as well as crypt. parva and put them in the shadowy areas created by the stones. 
I would like to add the dwarf form of bolbitis I have heard rumors of on the large stone, but I don't know if this plant is real or not or where to get it.

I really think I'm getting better at this art form... i may still be a beginner but i really do view this as a real art form, like bonsai or ikebana. I've never been good at artistic things, but always loved botany. 

I found my medium! I am really proud of myself. Planted tanks are SO much harder than marine aquariums.


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## JCoxRocks (Mar 22, 2005)

Dude... that sucks. You are kinda like me though... I've had many mass killings in my years of doing this. You have to move on and learn from it.

I'm completely tearing down my 125g tommorow. I have 3 palm-sized angels, a veil tail and 4 other angels I raised from fry. I'm not gonna lie, I'll be pretty pissed off if I lose any of those. I've been cycling my 38g in my bedroom for 3 weeks now in preparation. I'm hoping we will be good to go!

Tank looks good with the new light. Keep em coming! 

J


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## xJaypex (Jul 4, 2009)

I still think chances are that you went through a mini cycle. Same thing happened to me in my 120p when i added about 10 ottos. Fish started dying along with some shrimp. I tested with two test kits and nothing was detected, found out soon after that it was most likely an ammonia spike because a few days after that i was getting green water. I read that an ammonia spike can cause green water, some that cant be detected by tests.

That or perhaps this time mrclean had something to do with it.

Either way, i feel your loss. I hate it when anything in my tank dies, i get so mad at myself.

Good luck, and hopefully your amanos make it and remain happy.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

All gone. 

I'm imaginig the dead bird scene with Monty python right now ; ) 

Test show I have zero ammonia and nitrite. 

My test kits MUST be old and wrong. The ammonia and nitrite tests were given to me as a make up from a trade gone bad to make up for a broken eheim impeller I received, I guess it's possible they sent me expired tests to make up for it? I don't know.... I'm just disappointed.

The LFS I go to specializes in saltwater and have a no Alive guarantee policy, so I'm out of luck on that, but I will go to petsmart tomorrow and have them test my water for me. 

$20 down the toilet.


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## roybot73 (Dec 15, 2007)

"Powersand, also laid down a few teaspoons of bentonite clay on the bottom

Aquasoil mixture... It's two and a half gallons of substrate on top of two liters of aquasoil. The substrate is like... 6 liters of powder type, 22 oz. of Laterite I laid down originally and regret because it sticks out like a sore thumb, a pound of tourmaline crushed into sand and crystals, and there is 100 ml's of Matrix carbon in there I laid down originally. I did not care enough to seperate everything out and that would degrade the aquasoil anyway. "


Why would you add all those soil amendments to a comprehensive substrate like Aquasoil? A pound of Toumaline?


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

A pound of tourmaline seems like a lot but in reality it's not THAT much. About.. a cup. 

ADA reccomends penac... that's bentonite. 

Clear super is just carbon, and tourmalince BC? Carbon and tourmaline. 

Basically..... because I felt like it.


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## roybot73 (Dec 15, 2007)

I'm not bagging on you, I was just wondering if stirring all that stuff out of the bottom layer could have caused your livestock die-off? It's the only other variable. Just a thought...


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Oh, the tourmaline and the carbon are totally inert... Matrix carbon is just... Well it's aquariumncarbon by seachem lol, and tourmaline is a pretty much inert mineral with ionization properties. It's sort of a holistic new age crystal healing thing. ADA sells it for your substrate and whole rocks of it for filter. I don't know if it REALLY does anything good but it certainly does nothing bad.

I tested again and my ammonia reads .25 and nitrite is zero today. Petsmart said I had an ammonia level of 1 ppm.

Ding ding ding! We have an answer, jaypex called it, I guess there was ammonia deep down in the depths of the aquasoil soil that was released. I really wish they made. Type 3 aquasoil with no ammonia added.... I could use some right about now.

I bought a new ammonia test kit and used it in the store to make sure it was reading 1 ppm, and it did,


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## Matty (Dec 4, 2009)

Looking good!


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## Uptown193 (Apr 25, 2011)

What happened here?


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