# Tank full of male bettas-no divider



## inthewerks (Sep 13, 2009)

I have never heard of this but would like more information as this topic is really exciting to me.


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## stpeteplanter (Dec 30, 2009)

I don't buy it. They're fish, not higher order mammals. They can't distinguish their family members or fish they have been raised with from others. 

I'm betting he just keeps them in there and flushes the ones that get too beat up. You probably saw them soon after they where put in the tank, so they hadn't really had time to go at each other yet.


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## accordztech (Dec 6, 2004)

I heard of what you described, but its ultra rare. I highly doubt its possible. I have kept a few female bettas together myself and they dont fight. But males is very iffy, I bet when one male gets another males food then its OVER lol


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## phreeflow (Feb 13, 2010)

stpeteplanter said:


> I don't buy it. They're fish, not higher order mammals. They can't distinguish their family members or fish they have been raised with from others.


+1 :thumbsdow


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## Stasiu (Sep 9, 2007)

I believe it, and have read about other breeders that have done it. They may not recognize eachother as "family", but if they're raised in that environment from fry, then they've never known any different, and make it work amongst themselves. Now this isn't nearly the same as trying to introduce multiple mature, or even juvenile, betta that have never been exposed to this type of social interaction. No matter how slow the introduction, I wouldn't put much hope in it being successful.


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## dr.tran (Oct 8, 2007)

stpeteplanter said:


> I don't buy it. They're fish, not higher order mammals. They can't distinguish their family members or fish they have been raised with from others.
> 
> I'm betting he just keeps them in there and flushes the ones that get too beat up. You probably saw them soon after they where put in the tank, so they hadn't really had time to go at each other yet.


High order mamamals? Intelligence in the animal kingdom is wide and varied. Like monitor lizards. They have intelligence that is close to a dog. Or let's go with the cuttlefish and octopus. Even been seen to use tools something once classified as a uniquely hman trait. They can remmber as well and be trained to perform some task. 

I cannot say for sure if a tank full of male betas can be raised to tollerate one another but I also cannot say that it is impossibe. It is certianly plausible. Even goldfish can be trained. So maybe these bettas have gotten used to the company


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## dr.tran (Oct 8, 2007)

Also the owner would be losing money if the fish really did tear each other up.


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## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

I don't buy it, are you sure they weren't a higher fin female? There is no way that works.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I think it's very plausible. 

Wild-caught Betta splendens aren't nearly as aggressive as our domesticated strains since the aggression was brought out through selective breeding in the Orient for fighting.

I raised bettas in college and used 10 and 20gal fry-raising tanks. I'd pull out and jar any individuals that were getting aggressive with their siblings, and plenty of times it was females I'd have to pull rather than males. I don't think I ever ended up with a tank that didn't have at least a few males in it coexisting. 

The high sotcking level was key to spread out the aggression, just like it can in African cichlid tanks.

It definitely isn't something I'd recommend trying just to "see what happens," however. The slightest little change (water temperature, decor rearrangement, etc) could potentially trigger that aggro behavior. I don't think I ever had those grow-out tanks set up for more than 4 mos or so- I doubt the fish would have cohabitated peacefully indefinitely.


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## volatile (Feb 13, 2007)

Maybe if we knew the name of the fish store some other people could confirm this or even take pictures.


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## alan j t (Feb 13, 2008)

this sounds pretty cool!

it sounds possible if they were raised together from fry.


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## Niyona (Feb 20, 2010)

There is a lady a couple of hours from me that breeds bettas. She also kept males from the same spawn in one tank, she said however this only works if they are brought up together, are the same size and maturity, and if they've NEVER been exposed to females. She says once they reach breeding age and are separated from the group and mated, they are never again suitable for a group male "harem" Or if you separate one due to any other reason and try to put them back into the male harem.

You could not just go buy a bunch of male betta and throw them into a tank together. They would IMMEDIATELY start to flare and fin nip and stake out their territory. So the likely hood of the fish you saw having "just been put in together" is very low, and what the store owner said, mostly likely the truth.

Again, not something you want to try at home... lol unless you are trying to breed betta.


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## webgirl74 (Dec 2, 2009)

I believe it because I've seen it with a betta breeder in BC, Canada that I used to buy young fish from. She had her entire 2 car garage converted to a massive fish breeding/holding area and she had a number of tanks that were full of males from the same spawn, and I even bought a fish or two from these tanks. She kept her nicer show fish and breeders separately in smaller tanks on their own, but did keep groups of her lesser quality fish together that she was selling to pet stores, etc. That being said, these fish were not full size yet like ones you'd normally see in a store, but they were close to breeding size, so they just might not have really developed that aggressive nature yet.


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## houstonhobby (Dec 12, 2008)

I think that "lower order" animals do tend to recognize close relations. I doubt if the internal experience is like "Here's my brother George" or "Oh look, my Aunt Emma, haven't seen her for ages" but more like "This individual's smell makes me like them". We are all controlled by our genes, and genes act to promote other individuals that carry closely related genes. There are plenty of examples of simple animals cooperating with closely related individuals.


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## killaguppy (Jan 25, 2010)

After reading some of the replies, I was thinking that maybe I was mistaken. I'm glad some others have corroborated my story.

The bettas were not the fancy fin ones. They had shorter fins–possibly originally wild? I first thought they were a killifish or something.

As for animals recognizing close relatives, I'm not sure if that applies here. I think it has something to do with them raised together, being in somewhat tight confines, and always seeing each other.

The store was Ocean Aquarium in San Francisco. When I go back, I'll see if I can take pictures.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

I've raised bettas and still have a few batches going currently. Males from the same batch of babies if kept together in a big enough tank, will not fight. They will flare at each other but they develop a pecking order within the tank as they get older. There will be your Alpha male who will be the most aggressive towards his siblings (and yes sometimes it could be a female), then there well be other less agressive males who will flare all day with one another/females. If kept in a big enough tank, they will not fight but if crammed in a small tank, they will eventually fight (after 4-5 mos) and nipped fins will be the norm. However, if you separate individual juvi bettas around 3 mos and reintroduce them to a sibling, they will most likely fight. For some reason, being isolated triggers an aggression or territorial response in these fish. Isolating also gets them ready to mate faster.  Kinda like not seeing your girlfriend/boyfriend/wife/husband for a month and seing them again for the first time.


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## webgirl74 (Dec 2, 2009)

houstonhobby said:


> I think that "lower order" animals do tend to recognize close relations. I doubt if the internal experience is like "Here's my brother George" or "Oh look, my Aunt Emma, haven't seen her for ages" but more like "This individual's smell makes me like them". We are all controlled by our genes, and genes act to promote other individuals that carry closely related genes. There are plenty of examples of simple animals cooperating with closely related individuals.


Oh absolutely! Before getting back into community tanks, I was keeping African cichlids. I had a species tank of Neolamprologus brichardi and they form quite tight family groups. You put a bunch of random adults in a tank together, or even with other fish, and they will either drive the other fish out or kill eachother once a pair has formed. Once you have an established breeding pair though, their offspring will get along and will in turn help to protect and raise the subsequent spawns of the parents. Very cool to see.


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## rich815 (May 21, 2008)

Nah, ain't true. I had three young bettas from the same spawn and eventually it turned out to be two males and one female. The males went at it big time.

I did have two males in a large, heavily planted 72 gal tank once. It was so big and so dense with rocks, driftwood and stem plants and such that the two barely bumped into each other. When they did they would flare but one would always back down and duck behind some nearby plants or behind some driftwood and the other would never follow. I had them together like this for almost a year, no problems.


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## BruceWatts (Feb 27, 2008)

There is one other possiblity that they are not Betta spendens but another species that is not as agressive. Betta imbellis is one such species. 

My experience with raising bettas makes me believe that they may have been sub adults and not quite breeding age. Once they start breeding I do not think they would tolerate other males. Also since they are not long finned they may have been females.

Bruce


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## Ariel301 (Sep 7, 2009)

I have never done it on that big a scale, but I have been able to keep male B. splendens together with no problem. I had a pair of bachelor males for a while in a 2 gallon tank with a divider while I was looking for mates for them, and I came home one day to find that the divider had fallen, or more likely been knocked over by my cat...they had not fought with each other at all while I was gone. Out of curiosity, I left the divider down and monitored them to see what happened...nothing. They were pretty good friends. They stayed together for most of their lives, only being separated to go on 'dates'. I have also kept multiple males in a community 55 gallon tank. I actually find I have less problems keeping males together than multiple females. The females I have had seem to fight more than males. 

A lot of the really fancy male bettas you can pick up at any pet store don't have much aggression in them. Since breeders are going more for color and finnage, they are not selecting them (in most cases at least) for fighting behavior, so they are getting really pretty mellow these days.


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## basskitkays (Feb 19, 2012)

Years ago when my family owned an LFS, we has a customer who bred bettas, and either didn't separate or only separated males once aggression occurred. He would regularly sell us groups of males, who had been together since birth. They remained peaceful with each other in our tanks, and I do not recall hearing any stories form anyone who bought multiples together that they had to be separated. He brought them in to us multiple times, so it wasn't a one off situation, although it could have easily been related to the pair that bred them (particularly docile individuals). I'm not telling anyone to do this, or saying it will work in any brood of babies, but it does and can happen.


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

I think you should go back to the shop and film the tank and the betts interactions for a bit and share it here!


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## VivaDaWolf (Feb 5, 2012)

If they are "short fin" they could have been females. 

From my experience, the siblings will go up together fine, until they day they are NOT fine. Its different for each betta, but could range from 2-6 months.. I had sent off a few females plus a male(well at first, he was a Maybe Male) to a friend and they lived together for quite a long time..until the day he just wasn't and she separated him.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

VivaDaWolf said:


> From my experience, the siblings will go up together fine, until they day they are NOT fine. Its different for each betta, but could range from 2-6 months.. I had sent off a few females plus a male(well at first, he was a Maybe Male) to a friend and they lived together for quite a long time..until the day he just wasn't and she separated him.


Yup, the hormones kicked in. I had a female attacked her father. It was around the 6 months mark.


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## Stone454 (Jun 1, 2013)

Yes males from the same spawn can be kept together but there better not be any females to fight over, the regular veiltails and crowntails are bred to fight and have the "kill" instinct going on, some of the wilds types you can keep males together if the tank is big enough but there will be chasing and fin nipping and so on. I still would not do it with splendens because it would still be a stressful for the fish and with stress comes sickness


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## [email protected] (Apr 11, 2015)

*Male bettas*

I have 4 beautiful male bettas in a 55 gal community tank.


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## Kalyke (Dec 1, 2014)

I think if they are not sexually mature, it could be possible. In fish store many fish are still very young. Black skirts will school when they are young, but put two adult males together there is a lot of chasing and dominence fighting. This also goes for rats, dogs and even humans to a certain extent. If their dominance activity is fighting to the death, I guess that will happen. Rats only power groom and stare at each other while standing like meercats until one backs down.

Bettas, in the wild form usually form a higherarchy, but will live together, male/ male so coexisting peacefully is in the genetics somewhere. People have pointed out to me that you can put males together. It must be a large tank with many hiding spots.

I plan to get some breeding unimaculata because they are huge and look like beasts. Right now I keep multiple females of all kinds together. They sometimes flare in a "get out of my face" kind of way, but it has never become violent.


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## Kalyke (Dec 1, 2014)

houstonhobby said:


> I think that "lower order" animals do tend to recognize close relations. I doubt if the internal experience is like "Here's my brother George" or "Oh look, my Aunt Emma, haven't seen her for ages" but more like "This individual's smell makes me like them". We are all controlled by our genes, and genes act to promote other individuals that carry closely related genes. There are plenty of examples of simple animals cooperating with closely related individuals.


It is absolutely nesessary, evolutionary, to not breed with too near a relative. Animals and insects produce pherimones, telling them a whole encyclopedia of information. People must really stop assuming that animals have the same brains/senses that they do. I do not even think we can register a creature who can barely see, and yet half the body width consists of a nose, and most of the animals life is about the olfactory senses. 

Betta splendins as we know it is a man made animal. The color and size of fin means something to humans but not to the fish. The fighting genes also have nothing to do with the fish. A real, non human created betta is a wild type. It is small, simple of color and fins, and lives with others peacably, though when mating fights in the same way a stag does. Fight, flare, mate and move on. Not fight to the death. Fighting to the death is a human creation.


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## Anders247 (Oct 16, 2014)

I believe it, as it's the same with gouramis in my experience.......


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## [email protected] (Apr 11, 2015)

*Save and enjoy these sweet fish!*

I have 23 "adopted" male Bettas in my 55 gal community tank and in over a year have NEVER seen any hint of aggression! I started when seeing so many die in cups at Petco. I wish more aquarists would do this, their beauty fills my heart and they are so happy peacefully swimming across the tank! Stop Betta cruelty!
Phyllis Murrar


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## matt11390 (Apr 16, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I have 23 "adopted" male Bettas in my 55 gal community tank and in over a year have NEVER seen any hint of aggression! I started when seeing so many die in cups at Petco. I wish more aquarists would do this, their beauty fills my heart and they are so happy peacefully swimming across the tank! Stop Betta cruelty!
> Phyllis Murrar


Wow 23! And you have adopted them meaning you have introduced them at separate times correct? When you introduce one the others don't show any aggression to the new fish? If so that is amazing. I bet you have one beautiful tank. You need to post a picture of your tank.


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> I have 23 "adopted" male Bettas in my 55 gal community tank and in over a year have NEVER seen any hint of aggression! I started when seeing so many die in cups at Petco. I wish more aquarists would do this, their beauty fills my heart and they are so happy peacefully swimming across the tank! Stop Betta cruelty!
> Phyllis Murrar


That... doesn't seem quite possible. The bettas found in pet store cups simply cannot be introduced to each other at different times without fighting. Even if you don't see aggression, they're probably really stressing each other out. Pictures would help, but I'm not sure I believe that story. 

Wild-type bettas can be kept in groups. Did the bettas at the LFS have bright colors but reasonably short fins? Could have been something other than typical pet store bettas. 
Or, I suppose it's possible that raising them together could keep them adjusted to each other. Maybe some sort of unusual setup kept them calm enough to not flip out when they reached the fish equivalent of puberty?


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## hollo (Jun 14, 2014)

You know, Phyllispm is right, they could not be seeing any signs of aggression because multiple they start producing stress hormones that flood the environment, and eventually these hormones, despite water changes, get so strong that the fish stop fighting because they are literally 'dumbed down' by these hormones and no longer react to the other males.
It's like learned helplessness - they can NEVER get away from the other males, and there are too many to fight to guarantee not getting killed themselves, so they shut down. It's a stress-flood response. 

I'm pretty sure I posted a source in another post but I'll try to get it here later once I'm back home.


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## amcoffeegirl (May 26, 2009)

If there are no photos then it never happened.


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## Witchydesign (Apr 1, 2014)

Ive heard of this happening, but its been with spawns left with the father. Its not something that usually works.


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## Anders247 (Oct 16, 2014)

Hey Witchydesign.....


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## Capecrusher (Feb 17, 2015)

I used to breed bettas and can vouch for the fact that they won't fight until separated. I would spawn them in a 5 gal tank and move them to a 20 long when they were almost an inch long. I kept them all together, males and females. When they got large enough they went into cups. FYI if you try to breed them the fry will eat baby brine from day one. I found this after going the egg yolk route and the unavoidable cloudy tank that goes with it.


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

Perhaps you have unusually peaceful stock? Everything I've read on betta breeding says that the males will begin to fight at some point if you try to raise the fry all together. Or perhaps you were cupping them before they got to that point.


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