# DIY CO2 regulator



## FreshPuff (Oct 31, 2011)

Have you tried using the search function on this site? You will get some great search results that are relevant to what you're asking.


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## guy4123 (Oct 11, 2018)

If you're on google, and you typed in DIY CO2 Regulator, I would suggest the link from reef central by alanle. There are lots of useful information in that discussion and was useful when I was building my own regulator. diyco2regulator is also a good source to see what parts are needed for the post-body (everything after the regulator body). The best regulators, in my opinion, are the ones that are built for semi-conductor/laboratory purposes. They are usually used in controlled environments compared to welding, which is usually in adverse conditions. They are also more precise due to the nature of the work that is performed. The brands I consider to be good are Veriflo, Concoa and Victor. For multiple tanks, I would assume just attaching a tee fitting to the exit port of the solenoid would allow you to split the CO2 for attaching multiple needle valves.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

AguaScape said:


> The title may be deceptive. I (in no way) plan to actually build a regulator. What I would like to do is to buy a used 2-stage welding regulator and connect it to high quality solenoid, needle valve, and bubble counter. I would also like the option of attaching multiple needle valve/bubble counter combos on it later for other tanks. The regulators I am looking at are Meco, Harris, and Victor brands. Looking to hear from anyone who has actually used this kind of setup and any advice they could give me. I would also like any feedback I could get on pros and cons of using such a setup.



Only con is cost and complexity...
top "group" uses expensive Swagelok metring valves
bottom group uses economical SMC air flow control needle valves..
not mine btw..
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/20-diy/193058-diy-solenoid-co2-setup.html


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

You are correct about the title! One of the big attention getters for me was to see how folks were actually planning to build a regulator when first spotting this a few years back! Turns out they were just screwing the parts of a system together. 
but then the idea is very good, no matter what we call it. I never buy a ready made set as most do not have good quality in the small parts. I go middle of the road on the reg as it is a pretty simple minded thing and even the cheapest will regulate the pressure. I like the Clippard solenoid for many reasons and like the middle of the road value of Fabco needle valves to combine them with Dwyer flowmeters for a far better way to monitor the flow. 
Many will think of splitting the flow as something to use a manifold but when looking at a manifold, they can be as simple as adding a tee into the existing line. Anything that adds more outlets may be considered a manifold, so design it for what you want, not what is ready on the shelf. 
I have used regs in several different ways at work and I do not recommend a used reg that is living outside! They get abused dailly and that makes those used by folks like lab workers, nurses, etc. a much safer bet. Go for the pretty shiny ones that are not beat up every day! They don't get frozen, flooded, or left in the heat to fry that little rubbery diaphragm inside! 
While we can actually trim some expense by doing the study and careful shopping, it is really hard to beat the price and ease of buying the small parts from this :
https://www.diyco2regulator.com/co2-regulator-post-body-kit-1-12v
Looking at the costs involved, I find it falls this way:
Excellent solenoid if combined with a salvage 12v power supply that you might have in a scrap box? We might buy it off the auction site for $15 but that is after we spend a good amount of time to sort out the model numbering and if we choose the correct one from dozens of options. 
Set on a manifold that sells for around $25 and I only find through distributors. 
Good middle of the road needle valve and we might buy it for $40 or so. 
Small brass parts might be found cheaper but takes a bit of study as well as running here and there to find and fit the correct ones. 
So once we add in numerous shipping charges due to none of them found at the same place, distributor markup, etc. we can really lose a lot of time and value to save a bit. Money can be valuable but sanity has a price as well? 
Simple to do the work if one has a bit of mechanical in them but the decisions and shopping can kill you!


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Great information! Thank You all! It is obvious that this is where I need to be while I take the plunge into high tech planted aquariums. 
I am currently shopping diyco2regulator for my post body components. I see the point of shopping one source (for as many parts as I can) to reduce shipping and time involved shopping. I do have to be cost conscious, but I don't want to cut corners in the wrong places. I was leaning towards getting the post body kit #1 (which would save me $30 using the cheaper solenoid instead of the Clippard) as I wanted to focus a bit more on the needle valve and less on the solenoid.
Precise flow control and little or no drift seem to be very important from what I have read here. As I see it, the solenoid is simply an on-off valve. Like all solenoids, they can be prone to sticking or, in this case, possibly leaking if the plunger creating the seal in the manifold either deteriorates from the co2 or simply does not seat well in the first place. Overheating or other issues including complete failure of the coil could be catastrophic as well. How often does something like this happen? After really looking into the Clippard it seems to be an extremely well designed solenoid. Still on the fence about it, but as I write this I am talking myself into spending the extra money.  @PlantedRich, you said "I like the Clippard solenoid for many reasons". Could you elaborate on those reasons? $30 difference does not seem like much for some people. But, it is something I have to consider. On the other hand, I become very fond of my fish. I feel like it is my responsibility to provide a safe, healthy, and happy environment for them. If I were to lose fish because I did not want to spend an extra $30 I would really feel like crap. 
You also said that you go with a middle of the road regulator. You also say that the cheapest will regulate pressure. How cheap are we talking about? I wanted to use a dual stage regulator so that I could avoid the dreaded "end of tank dump". This is why I was considering a used welding regulator in the first place. So I could have the peace of mind that I would not get a dump while not breaking the budget. As you made very clear, used welding regulators can go through a lot of abuse so I am also considering getting a rebuild kit and completely overhauling it. In the end I would get a completely rebuilt two stage regulator for around $120 to $150. I am not at all afraid of the complexity of a rebuild. I am very handy and I feel it would not be a problem at all considering my skill set.
I don't know a whole lot about CO2 except that it is in liquid form in compressed state and logic would dictate that the pressure would remain high until the liquid is depleted. If I knew that the pressure would reduce over a long period of time then I would be more comfortable using a single stage regulator. You all have much more experience with it than I do. Does the tank pressure drop off gradually (making it easy to judge where I am on remaining co2), or does it kind of drop off a ledge when the liquid co2 is depleted? I cannot guarantee that I would be able to check tank pressure every day and if I have to go out of town for work for a few days I might miss the drop off and come home to a tank full of dead fish and stressed or dead plants. If pressure drops of gradually, I would feel much better about going cheap on the regulator. My wallet would feel better as well. 
If it is easier to post up a link to other threads that provide the information I am looking for, I will be more than happy to follow those threads to get the information I need. Direct responses are welcome as well. I love learning and I am welcome to as much input as I can get.
I have so many more questions, but I feel it might be better for me to search other threads rather than cloud up this one which should be focused on the actual building of the co2 system. 
Thank you all again for the wonderful feedback and the expansion of my knowledge of planted aquariums.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

@PlantedRich I forgot to mention this, but the flow meter idea is very interesting to me. I was kind of stuck on going with a bubble counter because almost all complete Co2 setups have them. I was looking into dwyer flow meters as you suggested and they seem very economical. However, there is a wide variety of flow rates to choose from. For this particular build, I have a 54 gallon tank that will have high tech plants and lighting. What kind of flow range should I be looking for when purchasing a flow meter?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

See this:
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/1282427-co2-solenoid-recommendations-2.html


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> See this:
> https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/1282427-co2-solenoid-recommendations-2.html


Perfect. Thank you very much jeffkrol.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Start at the CO2 tank? The pressure on compressed gas makes the gauge work different than car gas gauges. The pressure on the gauge will stay nearly the same at around 800PSI as that is what is required to keep CO2 gas in liquid form but will go up/down slightly if cooled or warmed. But once all the liquid turns to gas as we get near empty, the pressure we see will gradually move lower. So the gauge is not much help to say we are 1/2 full or 1/4 full but does give us an indication when it begins to go down every day but how much warning we get between beginning to go down and flat empty will depend on how quick we are using it and how large the CO2 tank. Large tanks using little CO2 will get much longer like a couple weeks but a person using lots more CO2 and a small CO2 tank may only get a day or so. The major hiccup is if we leave a leak so that the tank goes from good to empty nearly overnight. That situation can certainly make a dual stage a good investment as they do hold the output steady, No EOTD which is possible with some single stage. 
Do overs, I might go for looking for a used dual stage that has been used in lab of hospital work as that would avoid the rebuild time/expense and they are out there at reasonable cost, but takes some looking to find the good ones. 
Most times, the smallest output reading flowmeters will be the ones we want as we tend to use almost no CO2 compared to most industrial or greenhouse users. I found it took some testing to decide what fit for me. I was already using CO2, so stuck the output end up into a graduated test tube and timed what I was using but then I had to go to online calculators to convert things like CC per minute to cubic feet per hour, etc. Start with looking at the very lowest flow as it is likely to be the right one. No firm answer as every tank will use a different amount of CO2. But general very low use. 
Familiar with the reed valves used on small engines? The Clippard mouse series uses something they call a "spider" which looks something like a reed valve which is just a flap to open/close. That leaves me liking them because there is very little to move or stick. They are rated in the millions of cycles for automation so we should never be able to wear one out! The coil overheating is pretty much involved with sticking parts more than burning coils. Heat tends to dry any lube and a tiny amount of swelling/distorting can make a solenoid with moving parts stick as it has to be a precise clearance to hold the gas. 
So much depends on how we are setup at our house! A tools guy can find things like fittings at the local hardware, buy a solenoid off the auction site for cheaper and screw it together, but then it also takes study to know exactly which solenoid to buy and we can kill the savings if we buy the wrong one!! 
I'm a tools guy who wound up owning an operation that could make me lots more money but I still like screwing things up, so still do lots of the small stuff.


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## aquawerk (Oct 23, 2018)

AguaScape said:


> The title may be deceptive. I (in no way) plan to actually build a regulator. What I would like to do is to buy a used 2-stage welding regulator and connect it to high quality solenoid, needle valve, and bubble counter. I would also like the option of attaching multiple needle valve/bubble counter combos on it later for other tanks. The regulators I am looking at are Meco, Harris, and Victor brands. Looking to hear from anyone who has actually used this kind of setup and any advice they could give me. I would also like any feedback I could get on pros and cons of using such a setup.




Why not just buy a purpose-built regulator? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

aquawerk said:


> Why not just buy a purpose-built regulator?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Because I can choose the quality of each component, and a purpose built regulator of the quality level I am shooting for is obscenely expensive. Also, there is a huge level of satisfaction for me when I build something with my own hands.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

PlantedRich said:


> Start at the CO2 tank? The pressure on compressed gas makes the gauge work different than car gas gauges. The pressure on the gauge will stay nearly the same at around 800PSI as that is what is required to keep CO2 gas in liquid form but will go up/down slightly if cooled or warmed. But once all the liquid turns to gas as we get near empty, the pressure we see will gradually move lower. So the gauge is not much help to say we are 1/2 full or 1/4 full but does give us an indication when it begins to go down every day but how much warning we get between beginning to go down and flat empty will depend on how quick we are using it and how large the CO2 tank. Large tanks using little CO2 will get much longer like a couple weeks but a person using lots more CO2 and a small CO2 tank may only get a day or so. The major hiccup is if we leave a leak so that the tank goes from good to empty nearly overnight. That situation can certainly make a dual stage a good investment as they do hold the output steady, No EOTD which is possible with some single stage.
> Do overs, I might go for looking for a used dual stage that has been used in lab of hospital work as that would avoid the rebuild time/expense and they are out there at reasonable cost, but takes some looking to find the good ones.
> Most times, the smallest output reading flowmeters will be the ones we want as we tend to use almost no CO2 compared to most industrial or greenhouse users. I found it took some testing to decide what fit for me. I was already using CO2, so stuck the output end up into a graduated test tube and timed what I was using but then I had to go to online calculators to convert things like CC per minute to cubic feet per hour, etc. Start with looking at the very lowest flow as it is likely to be the right one. No firm answer as every tank will use a different amount of CO2. But general very low use.
> Familiar with the reed valves used on small engines? The Clippard mouse series uses something they call a "spider" which looks something like a reed valve which is just a flap to open/close. That leaves me liking them because there is very little to move or stick. They are rated in the millions of cycles for automation so we should never be able to wear one out! The coil overheating is pretty much involved with sticking parts more than burning coils. Heat tends to dry any lube and a tiny amount of swelling/distorting can make a solenoid with moving parts stick as it has to be a precise clearance to hold the gas.
> ...


Thank You for the very informative response. I feel much more comfortable with running a single stage regulator since I will be using a 5-10 pound bottle and I expect my flow rate to be rather low. Most of my experience with CO2 is in playing paintball which has much smaller tanks and much higher rate of use which uses the remaining gas (after the liquid is depleted) much faster. I am very familiar with the "machine gun effect" when a paintball tank runs low which I attribute to an EOTD. This may be more affected by the inability of the marker being able to fully re-cock due to the lower pressure. I am not sure.

Re: the Clippard solenoid. I am sold! I assume you are talking about the DV-2M-12. The other regulators sold on diyco2regulator.com are also Clippard, but they do not post them as such. You should get a commission from Clippard, diyco2regulator.com, or both. 

For my flow meter (as recommended by a previous response) [I can't give credit where credit is due because I cannot scroll back while posting], I was thinking the RMA-151 as it has the lowest flow rate that I can find (5-50 cc/min). Unless someone can talk me into using the RMA-150 which measures 10-100 cc/min. I know bubble counters can vary from model to model due to the diameter of the orifice (nipple? not sure of the correct term), but most people seem to run between 2-10 BPS (bubbles per second) in similar sized aquariums. aquaristikshop.com claims the Dennerle bubble counter has a volume of .063 ml per bubble. ml and cc equate 1:1. So, at one bubble per second .063cc x 60 seconds/min = 3.78cc/min. To be over 50 cc/min I would have to run the Dennerle bubble counter at 13 bps. Looks like I answered my own question. 

According to my math, the RMA-151 at a range of 5-50 cc/minute equates to ~2-13 bubbles per second and the RMA-150 at 10-100 cc/min would equate to ~4-26 bps. If anyone thinks I could possibly need more than 13 bps then please let me know! Additionally, if any of my math is off, please correct me! 

I am also a "tools guy" and I look forward to posting a journal of my build to show off my skills and hopefully provide some help to anyone else who has a DIY state of mind. I have been taking photographs of my preliminary steps with that goal in mind.

Bump: The "credit due" note in my previous post goes to @guy4123 for posting recommendations for flow meter choices and to @jeffkrol for directing me to that thread in the first place. Thank you both.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

*DIY CO2 Regulator*

You have to admit that my original post titled "DIY CO2 Regulator" has an uncanny resemblance to www.diyco2regulator.com This was entirely unintentional and quite coincidental. It strikes me as ironic that I will be sourcing most of my parts from the site that shares my title.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

The major difference in the Clippard DV and the solenoid that might be seen on the sales site as being yellow is the color, one silver and one that can be found in a number of colors like yellow, blue or green. 
I've not looked into the model numbering on the DV but might run through some info on the "yellow hat" type? 
They all start model numbers with E (electronic?) and the second letter tells the connection type. C for connector or plug, V for small wires brought out. Kind of thin/fragile wires for me. T is my fav as it provides terminals ot tabs brought out to solder to. 
ET-2 will give and in and out port/opening while dash 3 gives in, out, and an exhaust which is not what we want as it lets gas escape. But to make it confusing, there are ETO-3 which is the exhaust (fully ported?) which is brought out as a stud on the top which we can stopper with a 10-32 size screw and they are good! So if looking at used that look like a salt shaker on top, no good but if they have a metal stud on top, maybe good so shop carefully? Last number tells what voltage with 6,12, 15, 18,24 being pretty common. The power supply voltage used has to match this voltage but since they use such a tiny amount of power, almost all supplies will be large enough and more (amps, milliamps, watts?) is not a problem.
If you want to use solid piping, models with an M will need the manifold to set on and provide the ports for 1/8 pipes. EV-2M-12, perhaps? 
So that leaves a possibility that one can find the correct solenoid on some online site at a cheaper price and then source the small parts locally- -but that does take some small knowledge and time to pick and choose the right combo of parts.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

PlantedRich said:


> The major difference in the Clippard DV and the solenoid that might be seen on the sales site as being yellow is the color, one silver and one that can be found in a number of colors like yellow, blue or green.
> I've not looked into the model numbering on the DV but might run through some info on the "yellow hat" type?
> They all start model numbers with E (electronic?) and the second letter tells the connection type. C for connector or plug, V for small wires brought out. Kind of thin/fragile wires for me. T is my fav as it provides terminals ot tabs brought out to solder to.
> ET-2 will give and in and out port/opening while dash 3 gives in, out, and an exhaust which is not what we want as it lets gas escape. But to make it confusing, there are ETO-3 which is the exhaust (fully ported?) which is brought out as a stud on the top which we can stopper with a 10-32 size screw and they are good! So if looking at used that look like a salt shaker on top, no good but if they have a metal stud on top, maybe good so shop carefully? Last number tells what voltage with 6,12, 15, 18,24 being pretty common. The power supply voltage used has to match this voltage but since they use such a tiny amount of power, almost all supplies will be large enough and more (amps, milliamps, watts?) is not a problem.
> ...


Great information on solenoids. I am looking into the ET-2-12. It seems to be perfect for my application and it is reasonably priced. 

How do you feel about Clippard needle valves? the GNV-3 series seems to have a very gradual roll on. This one https://www.clippard.com/part/GNV-3KI or this one https://www.clippard.com/part/GNV-3K depending on whether a straight or right angle will fit better. They also have stainless steel needles with Nitrile seal so (as they claim) it could be completely closed without damaging the needle. From what I understand, this can be a big problem with brass needles and mating surfaces. Not that I want to use it to close completely, but I don't want to have to be in fear of making contact with the seat. This is not a make or break feature. However, I like the idiot proof aspect. Part of the reason I am considering the Clippard needle valve is that the shipping cost would be the same if I get one or multiple items from them. I would rather source as many parts as I can from the same company to reduce overall shipping costs. If Clippard needle valves are inferior to Fabco, then I will probably go ahead and get the Post Body Kit #1 https://www.diyco2regulator.com/co2-regulator-post-body-kit-1-12v from diyco2regulator at $89.99. The needle valve on that kit is the Fabco NV-55-18 and I believe the solenoid is the EC-2M-12 with manifold. They also have the power supply with the same connector for $4.99. The two parts that I do not want to buy used is the solenoid and needle valve.

I found and purchased a Harris Model 92-50 Two Stage Lab Regulator for $55 (seller claims it was only used in a lab and it looks like it is in beautiful condition). I also bought a Dwyer RMA-151 flow meter for 22.55 (including shipping). Less than $80 for both, so I am on track to getting a complete CO2 system with all the features, precision, and safety measures that I want for less than $200. 

The remaining items on my list are: Clippard solenoid (with or without manifold depending on model), needle valve, CGA-320 fitting, tank, and miscellaneous fittings. The tank might push me over $200 but that cost is generally not included in any kind of complete regulator setup, so I am ok with that. I will probably buy the tank and CGA-320 fitting tonight since those are pre-body and will not affect my decision on getting the kit or not. 

I will probably be buying the rest of the parts on my shopping list tomorrow so feedback on the clippard needle valves is important right now, as it will be the deciding factor on whether I source from Clippard directly or diyco2regulators.

Thank you all for past, present, and future advice. I feel like I have found a great group of people who can help me to learn and grow (pun intended).


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

First thing:
I take it the Dwyer is minus a valve??

Second:
Compare the chart below to the Clippard you linked to..
Unfortunately due to th Clippard scale axis it is hard to tell exactly what it's like in the low end..
I'm guessing it is a lot like the SMC AS-1000 so it should be fine though I've personally found the AS to not be exactly as "gradual" as other more "precise" needle valves.
It is assumed to be a lot like the Fabco.
Certainly is a fairly cheap alternative.
A lot depends on the volume of CO2 you are intending to inject.
Unfortunately if one sticks w/ new the "next step up" would be the $88 Dakota..
https://www.dakotainstruments.com/barstock-metering-valve-mfvs-brass-straight-flow 


> Maximum Flow Rate: Air - 200 mL/min, Water - 6 mL/min, 0.042 Orifice, 0.0008 Cv


Note max is 200 "milliliters" per minute... 0.2L/minute


















going back to the link I posted earlier:


> The one you linked is still too much flow. The range of 1-10 SCFH is equivalent to 472-4720 CC/min. The amount of CO2 needed for our purposes is approximately 1/100 of that flow.


CC=ml BTW..
.4-4.7 ml/min is more of the ideal range.
That said, many commercial systems use the SMC metering valves and they do work so the Clippard should work.... 

NEXT subject.. downstream safety and how I differ from others BUT you did mention safety..
Most 2 stage regulators have no safety features built in for second stage failure..
One would need a relief valve for downstream parts.. in the range of say 100psi or so..
List of safety features usually included:
Burst disc on CO2 tank to relive tank pressure exceeding 2000psi or so
2 stage reg has a pressure relief valve that will open when 1 stage exceeds set pressure (fixed) this is usually around 300psi or so.. Each reg is different.
If 2nd stage fails and 1st stage is pumped unregulated into second stage downstream things can see that around 250psi 1 st stage pressure..
Every instruction I've ever seen regarding 2 stage regulators mention this as a warning..except for certain models that DO already incorporate it..
Not real common but they are out there..

This is not an issue w/ one stage regulators because most will have what is equiv. to the 1st stage relief valve above. Only difference is it will be much lower pressure to open.. like 100psi or less.

Nice adjustable one..Sadly most commonly found ones are 1/4npt though since it's the first part past the reg, and most are 1/4npt on the body, not much of an issue..
Does come in handy to bleed off the second stage pressure...
https://www.amazon.com/Control-Devi...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=E3NGK0AK6AQ2HASXYH6F

Would go between reg output and first part (usually solenoid) by using a tee.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

As in many ot the things we do, the charts on how the needle vale will work, really are missing the mark for our small use. They charts show what happens at 75-100 PSI when we are more likely to deal with 10PSI! Not too much help? 
So that leaves us to look for experience and I know of none who have used the Clippard, even though there are likely to be some users. Clippard is like a lot of folks who make good stuff but it may not be meant for us as we are such a small segment. Perhaps it works but then I also know there were a pretty large group who wanted another option and approached Fabco to remake the NV-55 using the 10-32 fitting, into one which could be used with 1/8 solid piping as the 10-32 is a tiny weak little thing to hang out in space. Fabco did the redesign and came out with the NV-55-18 for our use. What that tells me is that the group from 8-10 years back were not finding a needle valve that fit well enough and prompted them to go to the trouble of asking Fabco for better? 
Any of you older users still looking in that could tell us the what and why? 
I might be a little dubious of the Clippard but only on the thought that the group was looking for better at that time and it tends to require a longer valve to get the lon taper we like. 
The safety factor is not a great big factor to me on needle valves as we are not prone to accidentally ruining the needle by one or two closing too tight. More a factor if we do it repeated times and hard enough to mash a dent into the metal. Something to be aware of and not mess up the anvil type thing? 
Safety on the reg is not one I worry at all as I have never had one fail and let pressure blow through if the reg is not terribly abused. I feel a dual stage would be expected to last nearly forever and never blow out. Keep in mind they are not mistreated in hospital/lab situations and they are trusted to NOT blow gases like O2, etc. into a patient? Can't let Grandma get hit with 800 PSI, now can we? I have seen regs fail but they were also regs that had set underwater in floods or been thawed out with a torch after ice storms! I strapped them to poles where they got frozen and they never blew up the cables but did stop working when we nearly melted them down! We called it sissie work versus real work!!

Bump:


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

10 or 35 or greater for atomizers...

not going to argue "probabilities" here but the main point of the down stream check valve was to avoid blowing out a line or atomizer..
to be 100% honest here I don't put them on in tank discs because IF it would get over pressured most likely that end will blow first...

An outside atomizer (which I've had one craze and punch a pin hole at "only" 55psi..) attached to a canister pump if it ruptures will just dump the tank contents on the floor..
in other words it's just to minimize that likelihood a bit..

One can determine themselves if it is or isn't worth it..

Of course one could always hire a nurse to watch the tubing..


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> First thing:
> I take it the Dwyer is minus a valve??
> 
> Second:
> ...



Thank You for the great info. I am soaking this up like a sponge. 

Yes, the Dwyer is minus the valve. I was not sure how precise the valve is in the flow meter including the valve. 

I got kind of entranced by (what appears to be) a nice gentle curve that the Clippard needle valve shows on its graph and did not do the math on the actual numbers represented. The valve I was looking at tops out at 11 SCFM at 100 psi. 1cf = 28,316.85cc. Even accounting for the reduced pressure and only using a fraction of the adjustment range, it is obvious that it would be a very poor choice. 

I did look into the Dakota needle valves and they really would be a great choice, but then I am adding significant cost and I would be sourcing from yet another company adding another shipping cost. 

I decided to go ahead and get the post body kit #1 and power supply from diyco2regulator.com. It is a proven product that I expect to work great. Shipping was very reasonable and I do not have to spend time picking out every single little piece of the puzzle. I do like that part of it, but I think I have done enough parts picking and I want to move on to assembly now. 

Thank you for taking the time to link up and explain the benefits of the pressure relief valve. I purchased the one you linked up as well as a M/F/F 1/4" Tee. An extra safety measure at a relatively low cost is always welcome. Being able to bleed off pressure in a couple seconds in order to service anything seems beneficial as well.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Rumor has it the Dwyer ones are built by Fabco..


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

PlantedRich said:


> As in many ot the things we do, the charts on how the needle vale will work, really are missing the mark for our small use. They charts show what happens at 75-100 PSI when we are more likely to deal with 10PSI! Not too much help?
> So that leaves us to look for experience and I know of none who have used the Clippard, even though there are likely to be some users. Clippard is like a lot of folks who make good stuff but it may not be meant for us as we are such a small segment. Perhaps it works but then I also know there were a pretty large group who wanted another option and approached Fabco to remake the NV-55 using the 10-32 fitting, into one which could be used with 1/8 solid piping as the 10-32 is a tiny weak little thing to hang out in space. Fabco did the redesign and came out with the NV-55-18 for our use. What that tells me is that the group from 8-10 years back were not finding a needle valve that fit well enough and prompted them to go to the trouble of asking Fabco for better?
> Any of you older users still looking in that could tell us the what and why?
> I might be a little dubious of the Clippard but only on the thought that the group was looking for better at that time and it tends to require a longer valve to get the lon taper we like.
> ...


I see your point on the clippard needle valve. I decided to go with the tried and true and not try to save a buck and end up with something that is not at all suitable for a planted tank. 

I bought the post body kit #1 https://www.diyco2regulator.com/co2-regulator-post-body-kit-1-12v along with the matching power supply from 
diyco2regulator with the Fabco NV-55-18 Needle Valve and Clippard solenoid. I could have tried to find cheaper prices on each part (and I probably could). But, as you pointed out, it would probably not be worth the time and effort involved. My only regret is that I forgot to get the check valve since I was already paying the shipping...

I did get the adjustable pressure relief valve as suggested by @jeffkrol as I really do not know how hard a life the regulator had. It looks like it was very well taken care of and the seller claims it was lab used, but you never really know when you buy on auction sites. I also like the option of being able to bleed off pressure at the twist of a knob. I wonder if an adjustable relief valve (properly adjusted) would be a good failsafe for someone running a single stage regulator to release the excess pressure on an EOTD? 

I thought I would post up some costs in case someone is interested in seeing how much a build like this costs.

All shipping either free or included in quoted price except on items purchased from diyco2regulator.com which is added into total.

Harris Two Stage Lab Regulator $55.00 Used (price may vary) [I feel very lucky to find it at this price]
CGA-320 Nut & Nipple w/ Washer  9.48 [Ebay Link Removed]
Dwyer Rate-master Flowmeter RMA-151 22.55 Used (price may vary)
CO2 Regulator Post Body Kit #1 89.99 Link
12 volt power supply with matching plug 4.99 Link
Shipping on items purchased at diyco2regulator.com 5.99
Check valve TBD To Be Determined (will edit with price and link when I source and purchase)

Total for Regulator Assembly: $188.00 (No idea how it came out to an exact dollar amount, but it did)

Necessary but never included in pre-built regulator assemblies:
5lb co2 Tank- Aluminum Cylinder with CGA320 Valve 64.55 [Ebay Link Removed]

Optional:
Brass Pressure Relief Valve, 0-100 psi Adjustable 10.44 Link
Barstock Street Tee 1/4 NPT male-female-female 6.24 [Ebay Link Removed]

Grand total Including Tank and optional items $269.33 

For reference, the S.T. International Aquarium 2-Gauge Professional CO2 Regulator currently sells for 200.00 on Amazon Link. This is a highly rated regulator assembly (according to some of the reviews I have read). I personally think it is kinda meh. I believe it is inferior in every way to what I am putting together. [Single stage regulator (this is not make or break, but I really wanted to go two stage). Lower quality needle valve, and plastic bodied solenoid valve]. It does not include a measuring device of any kind, check valve, tank, or the adjustable pressure relief valve.

Hopefully people will not get scroll wrap on my the totals column. I have a very wide screen monitor so formatting when trying to create total columns may not translate well on narrower monitors.

I am not sure if the links will work properly as I am kind of new to forum posting. I will try and edit if it does not look right or link correctly. 

Any advice on check valves will be appreciated since I forgot to add the check valve on my purchase from diyco2regulator.com. I have no trust whatsoever in plastic check valves since they cannot even be trusted (in my experience) for bubblers. I have literally seen water syphoning back through tubing that had a cheap plastic check valve on it. Also I have read here (and elsewhere) that plastic check valves are prone to blowing apart under CO2 pressure (I believe this since I have had one separate from bubbler pressure). I may pony up the shipping cost on the check valve from diyco2regulator.com but I would like to avoid the shipping charge if I can. Diy does not post the actual brand or model number. Probably to avoid outsourcing (a company has to try to make money). Anyone have an actual brand name or model number for a decent check valve so I can search for a free shipping option?

Thank you all for all the valuable information that I am receiving. It amazes me that people take time out of their lives to provide knowledge to people who are trying to learn about the world of planted aquariums.

Bump: It seems that ebay links will not work. Columns did not line up at all since multiple spaces are converted to single space, but the general idea is there.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

does anyone have any experience using Rhinox Brass Check Valve? Can it be trusted to prevent water from leaking into expensive parts?


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Even on something as simple as a check valve we can get varied results??? I think it is Seattle Aquarist that uses a good quality metal check valve and they last forever, while my experience with them is not so good. The difference seems to be the water. Since it is kind of a given given that water will reach the check valve as CO2 is absorbed, I find that my hard alkaline water leaves a mineral deposit in almost any type check valve I use. It gradually builds up and then it can't close as well and eventually the water begins to make it's way past that check valve. But I have the type water that requires wiping down the glass when some running down the tank side or it will leave a trace! So it leaves me to say that some have good experience with metal while I do not and I find buying a dozen cheap plastic (but not too cheap) is better for me as i change them often. 
My first check valves were the type used for airline and they are not good at all as they are often two sections of plastic with a simple glue together from and that cracks open quite easy. 
I buy plastic items quite often and go to either US Plastic or ArkPlas, both of which have lots of types of check valves which do work as well as any for me. Their techies advised me that it did not matter which I used as CO2 is so easy that seals and types of plastic or tubing just doesn't matter at the temperature and pressures we operate. They build and sell to industry where material, temperatures and pressures, as well as distance can all be a factor but not for us. 
I would like to find a local dealer but it just doesn't work for me as they add a bit for their work and tax, which can make the deal less than worthwhile. I tried to talk one of the LFS shops into ordering a hundred but they were not willing to do it for such a small segment of business.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

PlantedRich said:


> Even on something as simple as a check valve we can get varied results??? I think it is Seattle Aquarist that uses a good quality metal check valve and they last forever, while my experience with them is not so good. The difference seems to be the water. Since it is kind of a given given that water will reach the check valve as CO2 is absorbed, I find that my hard alkaline water leaves a mineral deposit in almost any type check valve I use. It gradually builds up and then it can't close as well and eventually the water begins to make it's way past that check valve. But I have the type water that requires wiping down the glass when some running down the tank side or it will leave a trace! So it leaves me to say that some have good experience with metal while I do not and I find buying a dozen cheap plastic (but not too cheap) is better for me as i change them often.
> My first check valves were the type used for airline and they are not good at all as they are often two sections of plastic with a simple glue together from and that cracks open quite easy.
> I buy plastic items quite often and go to either US Plastic or ArkPlas, both of which have lots of types of check valves which do work as well as any for me. Their techies advised me that it did not matter which I used as CO2 is so easy that seals and types of plastic or tubing just doesn't matter at the temperature and pressures we operate. They build and sell to industry where material, temperatures and pressures, as well as distance can all be a factor but not for us.
> I would like to find a local dealer but it just doesn't work for me as they add a bit for their work and tax, which can make the deal less than worthwhile. I tried to talk one of the LFS shops into ordering a hundred but they were not willing to do it for such a small segment of business.


I am in the same boat as far as water quality is concerned. The town I live in sources it's public water from wells. As a result, I am fighting a losing battle with hard water stains on my shower doors and fixtures. It also is very alkaline. My pH is around 7.6. I am looking forward to the pH reduction that CO2 injection will provide as it may help get it closer to neutral. I was considering RO for my water, but I don't want to remove essential minerals that may be needed for plants. Still have a lot to learn on that front.

So. I guess I will just end up getting a bunch of decent plastic check valves and change them out periodically. I assume you mean the disc type check valves like these https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23369&catid=489

I might also add a water trap of some kind. I have some clear pvc pipe (left over from DIY sandfall and syphon overflow projects) and some nylon 1/8 npt to barb adapters. It should be pretty simple to make a trap that will provide a reservoir and drain so that I have some cushion in case I get a slow leak in a check valve. Do you (or anyone for that matter) know how CO2 affects pvc and nylon? I would think they both would hold up well as they are pretty non-reactive. and nylon is used for CO2 tank washers. On the other hand, it could be pretty bad if a barb becomes brittle or the pvc breaks down. It may seem silly to spend the time to DIY a water trap when it would be easy to just buy one, but I really enjoy making things myself. 

My parts for my build should be arriving in the next couple of days. Looking forward to posting a few pictures.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Two situations that need different items changed? For the house use, I was always a firm believer in the taste and feel of hard water. I felt "cleaner" after showers in hard water but that only lasted until I retired and got another job to keep active. In that job, I was maintaining water softeners and that let me see what happens with and without softened water. At the same time, I have always done lots of DIY plumbing like changing faucets and water heaters. We know that softeners remove the minerals which are mostly calcium and magnesium and that is why the taste and shower feel different as we are no longer rubbing bits of calcium over the skin. The skin feels slick! Kind of like rubbing a hand over the skin or a hand with sand on it? 
But the big kicker for me was when I changed out a neighbors water heater and I could lift and load it all by myself! An old water heater is lots lighter if there is not a tub full of calcium burned and stuck to the bottom and that also goes into how much extra gas it takes to heat water through several inches of limestone versus a bare tank! I have no reason to sell softeners and have moved on from that period but it really does make sense to get one of the new softeners if you are dealing with stains and hard water as it does make life easier for the cleaning and cheaper for appliances. 
But for the fish tanks, I go with using the water we have and have a faucet on the line before the softener so that I am using raw water for the minerals that I want in my water. I'm very slow to fight nature on that point as I can find plenty of plants and fish who live in the heard alkaline water locally. If one visits any spring that comes up out of limestone in places like Florida, Texas and lots of other places, we see lots of fish and lots of plants growing so it is not that plants don't like hard water but that the primary media spots are East and West costs where the norm is soft water. That leaves most of what we read coming from spots which have little experience with hard water and they will tell us it is not good! I find it much easier to adapt my methods to the water that to adapt my water to what other people finds works on either coast. It kind of gets back to why we don't see palm trees in Michigan? Just easier to grow something else! We can try to change what goes in our tanks but it is a whole bunch easier to NOT! 
Yes, those are the type check valves I like. Again, just a choice as I like to get ten plastic for $15-20 and shipping while others like to get one really good metal one for $10-15 and shipping. No wrong answers, just different situations require different answers.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

PlantedRich said:


> But for the fish tanks, I go with using the water we have and have a faucet on the line before the softener so that I am using raw water for the minerals that I want in my water. I'm very slow to fight nature on that point as I can find plenty of plants and fish who live in the heard alkaline water locally. If one visits any spring that comes up out of limestone in places like Florida, Texas and lots of other places, we see lots of fish and lots of plants growing so it is not that plants don't like hard water but that the primary media spots are East and West costs where the norm is soft water. That leaves most of what we read coming from spots which have little experience with hard water and they will tell us it is not good! I find it much easier to adapt my methods to the water that to adapt my water to what other people finds works on either coast. It kind of gets back to why we don't see palm trees in Michigan? Just easier to grow something else! We can try to change what goes in our tanks but it is a whole bunch easier to NOT!
> Yes, those are the type check valves I like. Again, just a choice as I like to get ten plastic for $15-20 and shipping while others like to get one really good metal one for $10-15 and shipping. No wrong answers, just different situations require different answers.


Yes. I am planning on sticking with carbon filtered tap water. I use a continuous drip and syphon overflow to reduce the number of water changes (especially helpful on my 180g). A water softener/RO is not in the budget anyway as I seem to have picked up a new hobby that sucks up any available funds (I wonder what that could be?). I may supplement the filtered tap water with store bought RO if testing shows anything too high for the planted. 

Back to subject. I was debating getting a Swagelok check valve and putting a water separator in front of it, but decided it will add more costs and delays to my project. I may still do that later. I ordered decent plastic check valves (x10), and am on schedule to start building my regulator assembly starting on Wed. In the meantime, I need to get power, drip water supply, drain, etc. to the tank location. I also am working on hardscape, stand/tank plumbing, cycling a filter, picking a substrate, etc, etc, etc. 

I am going to hijack my own thread for a few questions.

1) I have the Aqueon® 54 Gallon gallon corner tank. This tank has tempered glass for the front and bottom panels. The back panels are float glass (I used the polarized glasses trick to confirm). The panels are pretty thin (1/4") for the height of the tank (21"). Does anyone foresee this being a problem for drilling bulkheads in the back panels? I want to make everything as clean as possible and do not want a bunch of plumbing visible.

2) Since the bottom of the tank is tempered, I spread a layer of silicone in all places where I plan to put rocks as I do not want to risk hard points against tempered glass. Does this seem like a good strategy? Or even necessary? 

3) I was considering going dirted or WC substrate, but decided not to add another level of difficulty and I am going BDBS with some sort of commercial substrate underneath. Any suggestions on commercial products that will provide decent root nutrients and not look like crap if I do replanting and some breaks the surface of the BDBS cap?

4) Can anyone suggest an all in one fertilizer to use until I gain the confidence to create my own micro and macro blends? I was thinking of getting this. Does anyone have experience they want to share on this or similar products?

I guess that is it for now. Thank you all again for past, present, and future advice. It is truly appreciated.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

No experience with drilling os pass on that! 
Number two/ Not something I worry as I have stacked tubs of rocks for African cichlid tank and have had them almost filled to the top without problems and I do set the rocks flat on the glass as cichlids can dig under and I do not want the rocks shifting. Never had trouble with the glass breaking but have had some ugly scratches as I tried to lift big ones and let them drag on the bottom, Good it was the bottom where it doesn't bother me as it covered. 
For a darker sub to match up better with Black diamond, I might suggest Flourite black as one that would show less and I would expect most any to get stirred and mixed as we tend to do it when we plant or move plants. 
My go-to for ferts:
Liquid Fertilizer | Aquarium Fertilizer
Thrive seems to be one which makes lots of people happy. But then, I also like to do dry ferts, with little recent experience with liquids. 
Possible you are making it more difficult than needed? I go with the Estimative Index (EI?) dosing method and then modify/shift the items added when I see how a particular tank works. Different fish and plant numbers and types gets different amounts of ferts from food, etc. so I like to be able to only add the ferts that I need without throwing in the whole set. The charts, etc. make is sound somewhat difficult to get it precise but then I fall back on it only being ESTIMATE at best and I don't work too hard to make my estimate exact. Exact and estimate don't come in the same thought? 
So I go here for the basic figures and then go to dry ferts to measure out with kitchen spoons. I don't fuss when it gets below 1/16 teaspoon but just use a pinch, like a cook might:
Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator
This gets me a kinda close estimate and then as I see how the nitrate works out, I may slow or stop adding it as it tends to get high anyway in my fish heavy tanks. Two big things I like about this are that it relieves me of most of the tedious measure part and I don't pay for the water it is mixed into but just dip a cup, mix in the ferts and pour it in. The calculator goes into parts per million, etc but I never even think that way. Just if I have enough and not way overboard and assume that it will be okay unless one plant or another begins to show up looking funny. 
Then I look at some of these charts for deficiencies which are far more common than ever having too much:
https://www.google.com/search?q=aqu...hUE04MKHWesDrsQ9QEIZzAH#imgrc=Vn4aQwqnj0DI2M:
I find I have so much to do to keep the basic things like equipment and cleaning in line that I just look at ferts as okay to be in the ballpark as long as I am keeping the nitrate, etc. in line for the fish. Plants are pretty forgiving, compared to fish.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Thank you. 

I am not worried at all about the actual drilling. I have drilled holes in glass before. I am just worried about compromising the strength of the panel since it has pretty thin panels for the height of the tank. As long as I don't come in too close to the center of the panels I think it will be fine.

I used flourite black in my 180 low tech and it seems pretty good except for the cloudiness (did not rinse it, noobie mistake). It seems to work well. I searched black flourite and eco-complete black came up in the suggestions. I decided to get that since it is cheaper and many say it is as good and does not require rinsing. Not sure if it will look as nice if it gets mixed up and I read that I will probably get a spike in GH, but I should be able to WC that out. 

I will probably get some Thrive to start out with, as I am still a bit overwhelmed by the calculator (Thank you for the link BTW). I am sure that once I have a better understanding of exactly what does what, I will switch to dry ferts. I expect that I will be dosing pretty small to start with and then I can learn about deficiencies and adjust accordingly. I know there is going to be a learning curve on all of this. I will be researching other threads here to learn more about dosing. A point in the right direction (particularly ones on dry ferts and using the calculator) will be appreciated.

I think I am going to buy a dry fert kit sold by @burr740. Seems like a good place to start. He also offers advice on dosing. I have seen his tank journals, so he certainly knows a few things about dosing. Perhaps I will just skip the Thrive completely and dive in with drys. I really just need a starting point (a teaspoon of this, a pinch of that, etc. every X number of days). As you pointed out, I probably don't have to worry about hitting an exact ppm, just has to be close. I still have a little time to decide since I have so much still to do before I actually start filling.

First part for my regulator build came in today :grin2:. Everything else will be trickling in over the next few days.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

PlantedRich said:


> Not something I worry as I have stacked tubs of rocks for African cichlid tank and have had them almost filled to the top without problems and I do set the rocks flat on the glass as cichlids can dig under and I do not want the rocks shifting. Never had trouble with the glass breaking but have had some ugly scratches as I tried to lift big ones and let them drag on the bottom, Good it was the bottom where it doesn't bother me as it covered.


I am doing a sandfall in this tank that will have some very hard and tall pieces of rock that may have a single sharp point of contact with the 1/4" tempered glass. I thought it might be a good idea to add a silicone cushion as I have seen what tempered glass does when a small point of contact stresses it too much. Might just be the OCD in me, but I figured it couldn't hurt. Also, those nasty scratches you mention may be fine on standard float glass, but tempered glass is a whole different thing. I just did not want to take any chances. I wish they built this tank with float glass on the bottom, but this tank fits my space perfectly and I just have to work with what I have. I'm sure that it probably would not be a problem at all, but the silicone is there now and I feel a bit better knowing I have that cushion.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Yes, there is a lot to be said for feeling something is better as we can then move on to other things and there are always points we may want to improve. 
Ferts is a point that I found not nearly as hard as it sounded at first as it seemed really risky to start dumping stuff into the tank after years years fighting to keep the tank clean. The whole point of fish keeping used to be to tear down the tank and get it totally clean---until we came around to knowing about the nitrogen cycle and all that good bacteria we need to take care of the ammonia.
Seemed just really dumb to vac a tank of every speck and then see folks use DIRT in them? 
So now I look at the big three ferts, N, P, and K with a bit of the micros added on another day. So finding that there choices can normally be down to three chemicals to get the big three macros and then a simple one item (cms+b?) to do the micros helped me to cut through a lot of the confusion from all the chemistry. I look it as pretty close to the difference in my cooking versus my wife. She can figure out what each ingredient does and have a far wider range of cooking but for me, I can do a few items, taste it and get near enough for the level of cooking which makes me happy without really knowing what each item does in a cake. Since I never really want to do a cake or anything requiring great skill, I'm happy with not knowing! 
So the calculator lets me plug in tank size and what item I might want to use. Most use KNO3 as a way to get some of the potassium (K) and nitrogen (N) and what dosing method I like. I use EI as an estimate and it spits out how much KNO3 to add. It tells me how many PPM but I only look at how much in teaspoons and dip it out of the bag to mix in my cup of water before pouring it in! Some of the micros will make some of the macros settle out if we add them at the same time so I do macros one day and micros the next and just go through the week alternating and if I am gone and miss a day, I ignore the break as my plants are not all that fussy. 
I am certain that I am not getting the true high level growth but then I don't bake that cake!!! I'm more a low level, happy to see something good and do a little trimming here, a little algae fight all the time and set by to not worry it too much! As long as I don't tell them how screwed up the tanks are, the visitors are highly impressed, so I just keep my mouth shut on that point. 
Most sources can provide a simple big three macro and a micro mix to make it easy to get , until the time when you may want to bake the big cake? I'm more a "ham and eggs" sort and buy the cake if I need it.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

PlantedRich said:


> So now I look at the big three ferts, N, P, and K with a bit of the micros added on another day. So finding that there choices can normally be down to three chemicals to get the big three macros and then a simple one item (cms+b?) to do the micros helped me to cut through a lot of the confusion from all the chemistry. I look it as pretty close to the difference in my cooking versus my wife. She can figure out what each ingredient does and have a far wider range of cooking but for me, I can do a few items, taste it and get near enough for the level of cooking which makes me happy without really knowing what each item does in a cake. Since I never really want to do a cake or anything requiring great skill, I'm happy with not knowing!
> So the calculator lets me plug in tank size and what item I might want to use. Most use KNO3 as a way to get some of the potassium (K) and nitrogen (N) and what dosing method I like. I use EI as an estimate and it spits out how much KNO3 to add. It tells me how many PPM but I only look at how much in teaspoons and dip it out of the bag to mix in my cup of water before pouring it in! Some of the micros will make some of the macros settle out if we add them at the same time so I do macros one day and micros the next and just go through the week alternating and if I am gone and miss a day, I ignore the break as my plants are not all that fussy.


After feedback from you and visiting other posts, I feel much more comfortable dosing with dry ferts. I think I am going to just buy a kit and learn as I go. Working with the calculator a bit, I now have a pretty good understanding of how it works. It the very wide range of options for ingredients and each one supplementing different things that seemed intimidating. I think if I just get a good kit, Input each ingredient and volume of my tank and add it into the mix. 

One question, I believe the EI method depends upon a large water change once a week. I run my tanks with a continuous drip water change. For example, my 180 gallon has an actual volume of around 170 gallons (including filters). I have a 2 gph continuous drip going in which adds 48 gallons every 24 hours. This comes to around 1/4 water change every day. It may seem like overkill, but my water starts out at about 10 ppm nitrates and I kind of have to keep a high flow going to keep it under 20 ppm. I tried switching to 1 ghp and my nitrates rose to almost 30 ppm. Before I put in the continuous drip, I was struggling to keep it under 40 ppm and it was a ton of work. Once I went to continuous drip I could never go back. I only have to do water changes when something gets out of balance or I just feel like I need to do some house cleaning. 

I will probably start out with 1/2 gph drip on my 54 gallon. This will change 12 gallons a day at a bit over 22% of total volume daily. How do you think I should adjust for a system like this? If I simply add the 12 gallons (for the first day) to the 54, I would be dosing for 66 gallons. This would start out strong and gradually taper off as the water changes. Since I would be dosing every other day, it would start off high and end up low after the second day. The plants will probably consume a lot of the nitrates allowing me to go to a much lower water change rate (maybe 1/4 gph) or it might even be easier to not do drip at all and do water changes since the tank size is more manageable. Does anyone have experience dosing with a setup like this?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Each "color" has a meaning..
AFAICT.. Blue was electrical safe
analytical series is light blue..
O2 white
Corrosion resistant grey.
Yellow w/ "H" for high flow..

https://clippard.com/downloads/PDF_Documents/Product Data Sheets/EV Series Mouse Valves.pdf


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

AguaScape said:


> After feedback from you and visiting other posts, I feel much more comfortable dosing with dry ferts. I think I am going to just buy a kit and learn as I go. Working with the calculator a bit, I now have a pretty good understanding of how it works. It the very wide range of options for ingredients and each one supplementing different things that seemed intimidating. I think if I just get a good kit, Input each ingredient and volume of my tank and add it into the mix.
> 
> One question, I believe the EI method depends upon a large water change once a week. I run my tanks with a continuous drip water change. For example, my 180 gallon has an actual volume of around 170 gallons (including filters). I have a 2 gph continuous drip going in which adds 48 gallons every 24 hours. This comes to around 1/4 water change every day. It may seem like overkill, but my water starts out at about 10 ppm nitrates and I kind of have to keep a high flow going to keep it under 20 ppm. I tried switching to 1 ghp and my nitrates rose to almost 30 ppm. Before I put in the continuous drip, I was struggling to keep it under 40 ppm and it was a ton of work. Once I went to continuous drip I could never go back. I only have to do water changes when something gets out of balance or I just feel like I need to do some house cleaning.
> 
> I will probably start out with 1/2 gph drip on my 54 gallon. This will change 12 gallons a day at a bit over 22% of total volume daily. How do you think I should adjust for a system like this? If I simply add the 12 gallons (for the first day) to the 54, I would be dosing for 66 gallons. This would start out strong and gradually taper off as the water changes. Since I would be dosing every other day, it would start off high and end up low after the second day. The plants will probably consume a lot of the nitrates allowing me to go to a much lower water change rate (maybe 1/4 gph) or it might even be easier to not do drip at all and do water changes since the tank size is more manageable. Does anyone have experience dosing with a setup like this?



This is the thing that makes each if us choose how we want to do the dosing. Some prefer to not test and just go with doing lots of water change with the idea of "rest" on the overdose of ferts we are adding when doing it EI. I started EI but then found that I was always too high on nitrate and way to high on phosphate and this is when dry ferts seemed better as I was able to totally stop dosing potassium nitrate and cut way back on phosphate. I don't mind the testing and each tank does act a bit different, so my situation comes down to doing the testand after some time, as I see how each tank settles in, I adjust what I am adding and I also find that tanks do change as the fish and plants are always growing dying or changing in some way. The sub is also prone to change as it collects more debris or we move things around. At one point, I was working the idea of keeping up on vacing the surface but as I got more into dirt from falling out of pots and spilling, the idea of vacing well enough to keep that dirt out was just not going to work and it is far less work to just leave it and adjust my ferts as the whole tank changes much like the garden outside. 
The garden is always changing as plants and trees change so that light and growth changes. Maybe that's why they call it a hobby? Because we never run out of "fun" things to do. Like trim the weeds in the tank!!! 

One small hint that is easy to miss if you get a Clippard is the way it is put together so that the top can be rotated to better fit how the wires, etc come out. Okay to rotate the body but recommended NOT to take it apart as it may not fit back just right. :icon_mad:


----------



## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Each "color" has a meaning..
> AFAICT.. Blue was electrical safe
> analytical series is light blue..
> O2 white
> ...


Great Link! The options have my head spinning. I am especially interested in the manifolds as it would allow me to start different tanks on different photo periods without having to tee off and hang even more parts in space.
I believe the one I have ordered in the Diyco2regulator kit is the EV-3M-12 (standard) with a plug attached to the ends of the wires, and matching manifold. 

My kit arrived. Turns out the model is the ET-3M-12. It has spade terminals and it comes with a lead connector to adapt from spade to the connection to match the power supply.

Question: the manifold that arrived with the solenoid is the 15490-5 which has two ports. What is the purpose of the two ports? redundancy? All of the multi solenoid manifolds seem to have one port. Would it be a problem running ET-3M-12 solenoids on a single port manifold?


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

PlantedRich said:


> This is the thing that makes each if us choose how we want to do the dosing. Some prefer to not test and just go with doing lots of water change with the idea of "rest" on the overdose of ferts we are adding when doing it EI. I started EI but then found that I was always too high on nitrate and way to high on phosphate and this is when dry ferts seemed better as I was able to totally stop dosing potassium nitrate and cut way back on phosphate. I don't mind the testing and each tank does act a bit different, so my situation comes down to doing the testand after some time, as I see how each tank settles in, I adjust what I am adding and I also find that tanks do change as the fish and plants are always growing dying or changing in some way. The sub is also prone to change as it collects more debris or we move things around. At one point, I was working the idea of keeping up on vacing the surface but as I got more into dirt from falling out of pots and spilling, the idea of vacing well enough to keep that dirt out was just not going to work and it is far less work to just leave it and adjust my ferts as the whole tank changes much like the garden outside.
> The garden is always changing as plants and trees change so that light and growth changes. Maybe that's why they call it a hobby? Because we never run out of "fun" things to do. Like trim the weeds in the tank!!!
> 
> One small hint that is easy to miss if you get a Clippard is the way it is put together so that the top can be rotated to better fit how the wires, etc come out. Okay to rotate the body but recommended NOT to take it apart as it may not fit back just right. :icon_mad:


I'm sold. It will be much easier to make adjustments. Especially since my water already has high nitrates out of the tap and I will have to adjust my dosing for my automatic drip. 

In regards to testing. I have the API freshwater master test kit (the smaller one). I am guessing I will need to get KH, GH, Phosphate, and Fe (Iron). Is there any need to test for Mg or anything else? 

Thanks for the tip on not taking the solenoid apart. I have a tendency to want to see how things work. Haha.

I have already played around with loosening the collar to rotate the terminals (nice feature btw.). It is obvious that the Clippard solenoid is a quality piece of equipment.

My regulator body has been delayed. It appears that the ETA on arrival has been pushed out to next week... <frowny face with tears>


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

On test sets, I'm kind of divided as I have trouble getting a good reading with the API nitrate and found the Salifert brand has a pink color which works much better for me. Never found why but the API reads okay up to about twenty, even when I mixed distilled water to known amounts of nitrate for 5, 10, 25, 50 PPM. I had really fish heavy stocking and nitrate has always been something of a problem but when I went into plants, I felt I needed to know more but the tests were showing always 80 + even when I did back to back 50 % water changes for several days in a row. The written info says African cichlids have to have clean water like 20 PPM so I had always had some doubt as they were fat, happy, and breeding at what tested to be 100! I went through the idea that I was not shaking the bottle enough so went to a new bottle and built a shaker on my reciprocating saw but still got wrong answers until I choked up and bought the more expensive Salifert which I could see 50% drop when I did a water change. Weird chemistry thing? 
But the others, like GH/KH, etc. are okay. I do not test for iron but do have some on hand and have used the fert at times. I live in one of those areas where the water comes out of limestone and has more than 300 hardness, so I do not need calcium nor magnesium. But at one point I did use some Epson salt as a handy way to see if magnesium would change the results. Since plants are rarely bothered by too much of any fert, it was simple to just try it. 
I'm not a chemistry sort and the last study I did was in high school which I immediately wrote off as unneeded!! But I am able to look at plants and see who needs help, so sometimes it works and sometimes I switch out the plants. If they don't want to grow, they have to go!


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

PlantedRich said:


> On test sets, I'm kind of divided as I have trouble getting a good reading with the API nitrate and found the Salifert brand has a pink color which works much better for me. Never found why but the API reads okay up to about twenty, even when I mixed distilled water to known amounts of nitrate for 5, 10, 25, 50 PPM. I had really fish heavy stocking and nitrate has always been something of a problem but when I went into plants, I felt I needed to know more but the tests were showing always 80 + even when I did back to back 50 % water changes for several days in a row. The written info says African cichlids have to have clean water like 20 PPM so I had always had some doubt as they were fat, happy, and breeding at what tested to be 100!


I apologize for the side tracks that this thread has taken. I originally intended for this thread to be focused on the regulator build, but I have so many questions and this thread seems to provide the best answers to those questions. Thank you to @PlantedRich and @jeffkrol for being there to provide such great information.

I have pretty much the same results with the API kit. The nitrate test is pretty easy to judge in the 0-20 range, but it seems very difficult to judge the color in the high range. Until I got my nitrates under control with continuous drip, it was always scary red with no way of really knowing if it was around 40 ppm or closer to 100+. 

I will be buying the Salifert Nitrate test. Debating getting the Salifert Master Reef Testing Combo Kit as it also has Ca, KH/Alk, PO4, Mg tests (also pH which I already have). I may not need to use them all the time, but it would be nice to know where I stand on all of them. Hopefully freshwater does not read differently as these are designed for salt water. 

I did some research on recent water quality tests for my district. TDS is 289 ppm. Water hardness is 219 ppm (Ca+Mg+Carbonate). Ca is 44 ppm, Mg is 30 ppm, which would leave 145 ppm for Carbonate. Additional measurements are , Chloride 11 ppm, Sulfate 24 ppm, Sodium 19 ppm, and Chlorine >1 ppm. (all numbers are averages and rounded to the nearest whole number). According to my calculations (which I made at two decimal places), there is ~13 ppm of unidentified dissolved solids. 

Copper, Lead, Arsenic, Barium, Uranium, Vanadium, Trihalomethanes, Haloacetic acid, etc are in the ppb range totalling about 1 ppm. I think those could be considered negligible. 

Nitrate Nitrogen is claimed to be at 1.06 ppm average with a range of 0-1.97 ppm. Nitrate = Nitrate Nitrogen x 4.43, so that would come out to less than 5 ppm Nitrate. All my tests of Nitrates in tap water reads over 10 ppm. This could be due to inaccurate tests or the drought condition in California, as measurements were averaged over the 2015 to 2017 range. Makes me doubt the rest of the numbers are correct in current conditions. 

I know you said that Chemistry was not your strong point PlantedRich and I still insist on throwing up all these crazy numbers, but does anything stand out to you as something that needs to be concerned about? For that matter. Anyone who is more chemically minded. Same question. Perhaps this is something that should be posted on a different thread. 

Regardless. I am committed to learning as much as I can and getting the proper test kits to really understand where I stand and what I need to do to be successful in my quest to have a successful high tech aquarium build. 

I have been waiting for my regulator body to start posting photos of my build. Hopefully it will be here on Monday. All the other parts have already arrived, but since everything kind of revolves around the regulator I think it will be better to start once it is here. Then we can get this thread back on track.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

The water reports are something that I'm somewhat used to reading as it was a once my job to monitor a community well and putting out the report was part of that. Thankfully the tests and results were done with samples we turned in to the state and I never had to go too deep into that part, only compile the report and post it. Maybe look on the report for an item called "total turbidity" as it will have some effect on the TDS. Total dissolved solids can also include weird little things like MUD! I was asked at a neighborhood meeting to explain what turbidity meant and I (being the blind fool) mentioned that it was the amount of dirt or mud in the water. Since we used wells and wells are in the ground, I kind of thought having some dirt in the water was normal. That lady sure set me straight and let everybody know I didn't have any idea what I was doing since their water came out of pipes, not the ground! 
The main problem for us using the CCR is that it gives us high and low levels and sometimes average but that doesn't mean the water on any given day will match the report as it can change at different times, especially weather causes. CCR is written from a health point and only somewhat important to tank use. 
The nitrate is higher than some as it is an objective to have none in drinking water but it is also not at all high enough to be a real hazard and it does happen reasonably often in areas which are heavily farmed. One of the things we are going to see come to a head is that we are polluting water faster than we are cleaning it. I might guess that you would be found in the Central Valley area but that isn't to blame the local farmers as we all live downstream from somebody and if you are on a well, the surface water is kept from entering the well directly, so that means the nitrate in your water may be from hundreds of miles away and any the local farmers add, may come out in Arizona!
I am currently near Austin, Texas and one of the big issues for the future is water. We recently had a massive flood and the treatment plants in Austin were not able to filter the dirt out and there was a several weeks long boil order. Your water has a little nitrate but you can still drink or shower in it!


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

PlantedRich said:


> The water reports are something that I'm somewhat used to reading as it was a once my job to monitor a community well and putting out the report was part of that. Thankfully the tests and results were done with samples we turned in to the state and I never had to go too deep into that part, only compile the report and post it. Maybe look on the report for an item called "total turbidity" as it will have some effect on the TDS. Total dissolved solids can also include weird little things like MUD! I was asked at a neighborhood meeting to explain what turbidity meant and I (being the blind fool) mentioned that it was the amount of dirt or mud in the water. Since we used wells and wells are in the ground, I kind of thought having some dirt in the water was normal. That lady sure set me straight and let everybody know I didn't have any idea what I was doing since their water came out of pipes, not the ground!


I was wondering about total turbidity. Once you mentioned it, I decided to try and figure out what it is. It seems to be a pretty elusive subject with an odd way of measuring it. It is measured in Units (NDU and formerly JDU) which is a measurement of refraction of light by the undissolved particles in water. The benchmark is 1 ppm of silica = 1 unit which seems to be deceptive since silica is highly reflective. No way to really know how that equates to actual ppm because different substances refract light differently. Still it is very interesting. The range for my area is ND–0.69 with an average of 0.18. Seems kinda low since my water is sourced from wells. 



PlantedRich said:


> The main problem for us using the CCR is that it gives us high and low levels and sometimes average but that doesn't mean the water on any given day will match the report as it can change at different times, especially weather causes. CCR is written from a health point and only somewhat important to tank use.


The CCR does give high, low, and average measures. I used the averages in my quoted values. I feel that many of the readings are probably currently higher than average due to drought in California.



PlantedRich said:


> The nitrate is higher than some as it is an objective to have none in drinking water but it is also not at all high enough to be a real hazard and it does happen reasonably often in areas which are heavily farmed. One of the things we are going to see come to a head is that we are polluting water faster than we are cleaning it. I might guess that you would be found in the Central Valley area but that isn't to blame the local farmers as we all live downstream from somebody and if you are on a well, the surface water is kept from entering the well directly, so that means the nitrate in your water may be from hundreds of miles away and any the local farmers add, may come out in Arizona!


You hit the nail on the head. I do live in the Central Valley. Marysville is surrounded by a levee and has both forks of the Yuba river on two sides and Rice fields surrounding the rest. I am sure that the water table is a combination of river water and runoff from the farms. I believe that the Yuba river was not used for city water because of Mercury in the water from the Gold and Silver mining upstream. Interesting note, the rice grown here is highly sought after in China and Japan because of the very low Mercury levels. 



PlantedRich said:


> I am currently near Austin, Texas and one of the big issues for the future is water. We recently had a massive flood and the treatment plants in Austin were not able to filter the dirt out and there was a several weeks long boil order. Your water has a little nitrate but you can still drink or shower in it!


I agree that water is our future and we need to do all we can to protect it. 

My regulator arrived and it is a beast. Much larger than I anticipated. Will post a photo of my parts in next post.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

OK. I feel like a noob now. I thought I could drag and drop or copy/paste images into a post. Apparently I cannot. It requires a URL to post photos. Can anyone suggest a good photo share app or site that will be compatible with this site? Easy to use would be a bonus.


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## Botia dude (Feb 6, 2005)

AguaScape said:


> OK. I feel like a noob now. I thought I could drag and drop or copy/paste images into a post. Apparently I cannot. It requires a URL to post photos. Can anyone suggest a good photo share app or site that will be compatible with this site? Easy to use would be a bonus.


I've been using imgur.com for a long time now. Simple and no issues.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Clicking "Reply and then scroll down a few to attach files, Click manage attachments, gives drop down to choose photos, Click choose and mine goes to photos, then click upload?


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Ok. Here is my parts. The regulator body is a hulking chunk of brass. I will definitely need to strap my tank. It appears that I will need a street 45 coming off the regulator body. 

Assembly is being put off till Monday. I have guests coming and it is never a good idea to have small valuable parts sitting around when others are milling around.

Photo removed.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Botia dude said:


> I've been using imgur.com for a long time now. Simple and no issues.


Thanks. I signed up for Imgur.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

I am not thrilled with how huge this regulator is. I dont know if it really shows in the picture, but it is almost 4 inches across on the body. I am sure it would work perfectly. But, I feel I could do better on scale and quality. I did a little scouting and found a beautiful VWR 55850 2 Stage Regulator for $40 and change including shipping. I did a bit of research on it and found out that they sell for around $500 new and could not resist getting it. I am going to hang onto the Harris for a bit to make sure the VWR works well, but I will probably end up selling the Harris. the only thing I like about the Harris regulator is the large gauges. I may decide to swap the Harris gauges to the VWR regulator. I like the idea of having large gauges in the range that I will be using it. The low pressure gauge is scaled 0-60 on the Harris and the smaller gauge on the VWR is scaled 0-150. If I were to swap them I would swap them both for symmetry (OCD). The high pressure gauge is pretty much the same range. Does anyone foresee a problem running a 0-60 psi gauge on a 0-125 psi regulator? I think it would be unlikely that I would crank it up to max pressure, but do you think I could damage the gauge by over pressurizing it?


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Yay! Yay! Yay!!! My "real" lab regulator arrived!!! In case you haven't noticed, I am pretty excited. It is a VWR 55850 and it is gorgeous. It weighs about the same as my Harris, but it is way more sexy. I may change the gauges in the future (maybe 0-1500 and 0-100 glycerine filled). But, these are in perfect condition and I do not want to add to the cost of the build quite yet. I will be making a trip to the store today to get a couple brass fittings I need to get everything in the configuration I want. I am taking photos of each step, but I will probably just post a photo of the regulator (as bought) and the completed build here. Saving the photos in case I decide to do a step by step thread later.

Bump: Special thanks to @PlantedRich, @jeffkrol, and @Botia dude who has been helping in the background. 

Assembly is complete and I am thrilled with the result.

First photo is the regulator body as it arrived

Second photo is the parts laid out in the general planned layout.

Third photo is the completed assembly in operation. 

I am so happy that you all helped me not only choose what to get but took the time to explain the hows and whys behind every part. 

Thank You all!

Edit: the little bright spots on my table are bits of glitter bonded to the painted surface. Part of having a 4 year old daughter.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

I wanted to make sure that all gauges and knobs were easily accessible from the front. I could have made it much more compact if I did not keep the shut off valve coming off the regulator and the adjustable pressure relief valve. But, it does make it easy to isolate the after body components and bleed off the pressure. I am amazed at how precise everything is.


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## Botia dude (Feb 6, 2005)

AguaScape said:


> I wanted to make sure that all gauges and knobs were easily accessible from the front. I could have made it much more compact if I did not keep the shut off valve coming off the regulator and the adjustable pressure relief valve. But, it does make it easy to isolate the after body components and bleed of the pressure. I am amazed at how precise everything is.


That reg is looking super sexy in all brass! Congrats on completing your build. I'm happy to have helped in a small way. :smile2:


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Same...
Looks really clean.. actually one of the best I've seen that left on the shutoff valve..

anyways how was the CGA removal?

Bump:


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Same...
> Looks really clean.. actually one of the best I've seen that left on the shutoff valve..
> 
> anyways how was the CGA removal?
> ...


Thanks! Removing the old CGA was not too hard. I used a 11/16-6 pt. socket (the 6 pt. part is important, a 12 pt. socket would end up rolling off since it does not have sharp corners). That and a little elbow grease. I placed the regulator body on a towel, put my weight on it, and pushed down on the socket wrench.

Bump:


Botia dude said:


> That reg is looking super sexy in all brass! Congrats on completing your build. I'm happy to have helped in a small way. :smile2:


You were a big help. :wink2: Thanks!


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Anybody know why no one manufactures male-male NPT 90's? They really would have helped with making things cleaner and tighter with less extra connections.


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## Botia dude (Feb 6, 2005)

AguaScape said:


> Anybody know why no one manufactures male-male NPT 90's? They really would have helped with making things cleaner and tighter with less extra connections.


Like these guys? 
https://www.swagelok.com/en/catalog/Product/Detail?part=B-4-ME
https://www.swagelok.com/en/catalog/Product/Detail?part=B-8-ME


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Botia dude said:


> Like these guys?
> https://www.swagelok.com/en/catalog/Product/Detail?part=B-4-ME
> https://www.swagelok.com/en/catalog/Product/Detail?part=B-8-ME


That 1/4 NPT would have come in handy. Could have used a couple 1/8 NPT male 90s as well. 
What I really wanted was a 1/4 NPT male to 1/8 NPT male reducing 90. 
I could not find any at three different hardware stores or on flea-bay.

It's ok though. Just had to adjust a bit and get creative.


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## Botia dude (Feb 6, 2005)

AguaScape said:


> That 1/4 NPT would have come in handy. Could have used a couple 1/8 NPT male 90s as well.
> What I really wanted was a 1/4 NPT male to 1/8 NPT male reducing 90.
> I could not find any at three different hardware stores or on flea-bay.
> 
> It's ok though. Just had to adjust a bit and get creative.


Just found this. They're out there, just not common. 

https://www.fittingconnection.com/e...ing-elbow/forged-reducing-male-elbow/130fr-42


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Botia dude said:


> Just found this. They're out there, just not common.
> 
> https://www.fittingconnection.com/e...ing-elbow/forged-reducing-male-elbow/130fr-42


That would have worked beautifully.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

Awesome job, has me questioning my odd behavior from my Aquatek regulator, that is making a clicking sound as the CO2 flows and the pressure drops and then comes back up to the 40psi I have it set to. If you find anymore of those VWR's let me know. I wouldn't mind a better regulator that just works! LOL


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

chayos00 said:


> Awesome job, has me questioning my odd behavior from my Aquatek regulator, that is making a clicking sound as the CO2 flows and the pressure drops and then comes back up to the 40psi I have it set to. If you find anymore of those VWR's let me know. I wouldn't mind a better regulator that just works! LOL



just get this one.. 
132860053021
it's been taunting me for awhile now..


don't even need to swap CGA.. 

not new, gauges exchanged.. for comparison..
292788400122


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> just get this one..
> 132860053021
> it's been taunting me for awhile now..
> 
> ...



That second one has two 0-60 gauges on it. It will blow the gauge as soon as CO2 is connected. I noticed that one and messaged the seller. He messaged me back "Thanks for the info, D". He still has not taken it off or put the correct gauge on it.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

chayos00 said:


> Awesome job, has me questioning my odd behavior from my Aquatek regulator, that is making a clicking sound as the CO2 flows and the pressure drops and then comes back up to the 40psi I have it set to. If you find anymore of those VWR's let me know. I wouldn't mind a better regulator that just works! LOL


I picked up a few that I will be selling later. I removed details on them after reading the Sticky on the For Sale or Trade forum and I feel like that post did not belong here.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

AguaScape said:


> That second one has two 0-60 gauges on it. It will blow the gauge as soon as CO2 is connected. I noticed that one and messaged the seller. He messaged me back "Thanks for the info, D". He still has not taken it off or put the correct gauge on it.



Thanks, didn't notice that..


I SHOULD have added "WHAT not to buy" really as that was my intention.




Now it's even MORE WHAT NOT TO BUY...


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Thanks, didn't notice that..
> 
> 
> I SHOULD have added "WHAT not to buy" really as that was my intention.
> ...


It is a shame that he does not want to do anything about the message I sent him. Especially after taking the time to acknowledge my concerns. Apparently he does not care that the gauge will blow the moment it is connected. It kinda sucks since he does have some decent equipment for sale for pretty good prices. Ex: 292826862077 . However, I cannot trust someone who will not correct or remove an item that is destined for failure. Especially since they were told up-front and they have a no return policy.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

I just sent him this message:

"I have to be honest here. I told you that the primary (right) gauge will blow out the moment that it is connected to a CO2 tank and you still chose to keep the regulator up for sale. This is a failure on your part. You should immediately take this off sale and correct the issue or you are pretty much guaranteeing a poor review if anyone is stupid enough to purchase it."

It really bothers me that he would take the time to answer my initial message, but do nothing about it. I would be furious if I spent my hard earned money on that reg and found out there was a no return policy after the gauge blew.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Update - Regulator assembly is working perfectly. I am using it on my main tank to grow out plants for my current build. The regulator is rock solid and buttery smooth. It holds an exact pressure and can be fine tuned to within 1 psi easily. The needle valve has a tiny bit of float, but it is easily manageable. The solenoid produces no noticeable heat at all. This assembly is much better than any of the commercially available aquarium regulators out there and I am thrilled with the result. Thank you to all those who contributed to this build. Next project is DIY ferts for my dosing pump which will be arriving on Thurs.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

AguaScape said:


> Update - Regulator assembly is working perfectly. I am using it on my main tank to grow out plants for my current build. The regulator is rock solid and buttery smooth. It holds an exact pressure and can be fine tuned to within 1 psi easily. The needle valve has a tiny bit of float, but it is easily manageable. The solenoid produces no noticeable heat at all. This assembly is much better than any of the commercially available aquarium regulators out there and I am thrilled with the result. Thank you to all those who contributed to this build. Next project is DIY ferts for my dosing pump which will be arriving on Thurs.


Glad to hear all is good on yours! Can't wait till I get my new regulator up and running too!


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

chayos00 said:


> Glad to hear all is good on yours! Can't wait till I get my new regulator up and running too!


I am looking forward to seeing how yours turns out.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

@PlantedRich, @jeffkrol, @Botia dude. Or anyone else for that matter. Any of you know why almost all regulator builds show the solenoid before the metering valve? Seems to me that the order really should not matter. The reason I am asking is for the other builds I am doing. On a couple of them I could make them much sleeker by attaching the needle valve directly into the output port of the regulator body and then drop down through the solenoid and back up through the flow meter. It would make for an extremely compact and attractive layout. Any and all feedback is appreciated.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Does seem bit of a convention thing..

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/199839-okay-mount-needle-valve-before-solenoid.html


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Does seem bit of a convention thing..
> 
> https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/199839-okay-mount-needle-valve-before-solenoid.html



Thanks for that link Jeffkrol. I completely overlooked the concept of air pressure building up behind the solenoid being instantaneously released. Seems this would be an extremely bad idea since I am using flow meters. That little foam ball being slammed into the top of the meter seems like a very bad idea. However.. The flow meters I am going to be using on these will have the built in metering valves so they could be set near the upper range of the flow meter and still allow precision adjustment from the primary metering valve. Does this sound viable?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

AguaScape said:


> Thanks for that link Jeffkrol. I completely overlooked the concept of air pressure building up behind the solenoid being instantaneously released. Seems this would be an extremely bad idea since I am using flow meters. That little foam ball being slammed into the top of the meter seems like a very bad idea. However.. The flow meters I am going to be using on these will have the built in metering valves so they could be set near the upper range of the flow meter and still allow precision adjustment from the primary metering valve. Does this sound viable?



Yea, I'm not sure I'm really buying it..Posted it as "food for thought"..



Hoke Millimite rating:


> 5000 psig at 70° F (345 bar at 21° C)


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Yea, I'm not sure I'm really buying it..Posted it as "food for thought"..
> 
> 
> 
> Hoke Millimite rating:


Funny you should quote the specs from the Hoke Millimite as that is the valve I would be using for this configuration. I am not concerned about the metering valve being under constant pressure, in fact I think it is a non-issue. I would only be concerned about the pressure bleeding past the needle valve and backing up against the solenoid while it is in it's off state. That pressure would be instantaneously released when the solenoid opens. Granted, the volume of that pressurized gas would be very small, but it could easily damage a flow meter. I am hoping to control this release by presetting the needle valve built into the flow meter to prevent slamming that little ball into the top of the meter.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

I completely lost my senses and decided to try to do something I have not seen yet. I made an offer on this beauty and it was accepted. I also made an offer on a batch of Tescom 0-30 psi manifold mount regulators (also accepted). Guess I am committed now. The idea is to make an all in one regulator assembly that will allow precise control of a set of 4 secondary regulators with solenoids, gauges, needle valves, and flow meters. My hope is that I can use them for whatever type of CO2 injection method I choose and it will satisfy my rapidly growing case of MTS (at least on the CO2 front). Hopefully I do not go past 4 tanks...

My plan is to make a 1-1/2 x 1-1/2 x 12 inch aluminum block manifold that will be drilled and tapped to provide the flow routes and attachment points for all the other components. I can trim it to the length that I really need. I plan to use a high pressure air hose rated at 4500 psi between the tank and the primary regulator assembly.

The pretty little ball in the photo is a Swagelok high flow regulator that is pre-set to 60 psi which it will hold between 80 and 1000 psi input pressure (Yeah, I will have to be extra careful to not put a hot or overfilled tank on it). I will be reversing the direction of the regulator to put the output on the left. The next piece is a distribution manifold which will distribute that pressure to my manifold block providing 4 separate tubes to my secondary assembly. The third item on the top right is a pressure switch that I will connect to a DIY alarm (possibly a dismantled smoke detector or maybe something prettier) to alert me when my CO2 tank runs dry. Definitely will need a disable switch as I would hate to have to listen to an alarm till I could swap tanks. I could also hook it to a indicator light to show when it has pressure because it has both NO and NC outputs, but I think it would be unnecessary. No alarm = pressure. The secondary regulators are rated up to 150 psi with an output of 0-30 psi. I plan to run the power supplies to the solenoids from a smart outlet strip that will give me wifi control of the durations. 

Does anyone see a problem with using aluminum for the manifold? The CO2 should be completely inert as it does not become acidic until it combines with water.

I know... I have gone completely insane...


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Well.. not sure I totally understand everything you are doing but using that to drop the pressure and then feed multiple single stage regulators seems fairly solid..

Good thing you got what looks like "the main" fittings that would be costly i.e the HVCR "parts"..

https://download.siliconexpert.com/...mecompacthigh-flowgasregulatorslanguageen.pdf

You can double check the specs here (possibly) 



> I will be reversing the direction of the regulator to put the output on the left.


not sure about that part...


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Well.. not sure I totally understand everything you are doing but using that to drop the pressure and then feed multiple single stage regulators seems fairly solid..
> 
> Good thing you got what looks like "the main" fittings that would be costly i.e the HVCR "parts"..


Yeah. I was looking into the HVCR fittings and they were pretty much a deal breaker till I found this assembly with the needed parts already installed.



jeffkrol said:


> https://download.siliconexpert.com/...mecompacthigh-flowgasregulatorslanguageen.pdf


I have that same page on favorites on my browser. The model number printed on the band is SS-HFS3B-HM41-P60/40/80 which is pretty perplexing because none of these regulators have a preset output of 60, 40, or 80 psi and only the HFS4A is available in 80 psi. Regardless any one of those pressures would be fine for my application as the secondary regs are rated to 150 psi with output of 0-30 psi.




jeffkrol said:


> not sure about that part...


I just meant that I was going to completely remove the whole regulator assembly from the clamps and flip it over so that the high pressure side would be on the right (where I keep my tank) and the low pressure side will be next to the distribution manifold.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

To be honest, it looks like it only will take 80 psi "in" and 60 psi out @40slpm (standard liters per minute??)..

https://www.fabsurplus.com/sdi_catalog/salesItemDetails.do?id=80115


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

https://www.swagelok.com/downloads/WebCatalogs/EN/MS-01-156.pdf

Using the formula on page 4:

p4 = p3 + ([p1 – p2]/100) × SPE
where:
p4 = adjusted outlet pressure
p3 = initial outlet pressure
p1 = initial inlet pressure
p2 = new inlet pressure

Assuming that I do have a 60 psi regulator and the P60/40/80 refers to 60 psi initial output and the other numbers refer to 40 SLPM and 80 psi initial inlet pressure. The chart on page 3 shows that HFS3B regulators have a SPE of 1.3. And for the purposes of this calculation I am estimating my psi from the tank at 800 psi at room temperature (which is what my existing regulator is reading). 

I get this:

p4 = 60 + ([80-800]/100) x 1.3
p4 = 60 + (-720/100) x 1.3
p4 = 60 + (-7.2 x 1.3)
p4 = 60 - 9.36
p4 = 50.64 psi @ 800 psi inlet pressure.

I hope that these assumptions and calculations are correct because if it is not I may have the wrong regulator for the job. I want enough pressure between my primary and secondary regulators for the secondaries to operate correctly.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> To be honest, it looks like it only will take 80 psi "in" and 60 psi out @40slpm (standard liters per minute??)..
> 
> https://www.fabsurplus.com/sdi_catalog/salesItemDetails.do?id=80115


It states on the technical data chart on page 3 Here that HFS3B regulators have a maximum input pressure of 1000 psi. If not, then I just screwed the pooch. I can't imagine that this sexy ball of stainless steel is designed to only provide a 20 psi reduction in pressure. Seems like a very narrow functional range.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Whew! I rolled the regulator over and found this.

I was part way through setting up for the test in the second photo when I found it. Seems my calculations, or my gauge, or my tank pressure are a bit off (probably a combination). But not by much. I think it is safe to assume it is in fact a 60 psi regulator and should work for my needs. I can't express how relieved I am.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Good, there wasn't enough "concrete" evidence (till the sticker) for me to be confident..
Hate "off book" code numbers..


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Good, there wasn't enough "concrete" evidence (till the sticker) for me to be confident..
> Hate "off book" code numbers..


Yeah. I couldn't find anything on this specific model. It must be a limited run for a special application. I can't imagine how much this cost new.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

The waiting is always the hardest part. Parts are trickling in. I also just picked up this beast of a drill press. More than I need, but much better than a crappy harbor freight press. Solenoids are coming from Israel.

If I can source enough matching 2" back mount liquid filled gauges for a low enough price, I will be going 6 wide.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

More parts.


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

We may need to hold a CO2 intervention... :icon_wink


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

I finally started looking for parts today for my eBay regulator. Looking good! I picked up a drill press when I was building my aquarium stand, haven't touched it since. LOL

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Mike A. said:


> We may need to hold a CO2 intervention... :icon_wink


 Bahahaha! That subject has been discussed.

Bump:


chayos00 said:


> I finally started looking for parts today for my eBay regulator. Looking good! I picked up a drill press when I was building my aquarium stand, haven't touched it since. LOL
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Yeah. It will spend much more time sitting there taking up space than actually doing anything, but I could not resist getting it for $125.


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

AguaScape said:


> Yeah. It will spend much more time sitting there taking up space than actually doing anything, but I could not resist getting it for $125.


Drill press is a good basic tool to have around. Pretty easy to justify that one.

What the heck are you building? A manifold for multiple tanks?


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Mike A. said:


> Drill press is a good basic tool to have around. Pretty easy to justify that one.
> 
> What the heck are you building? A manifold for multiple tanks?


Yeah. I love good tools. It was easy to justify. 

Yes. It is a regulator assembly for MTS victims. It has a Swagelok high flow 60 psi primary regulator and will have 4 to 6 Tescom secondary regulators each with their own solenoid, gauge, needle valve, and flow meter. Planning on using wifi programmable smart strips wired to mini power supplies and I will use a 9 pin D-Sub parallel cable to connect the control unit to the assembly. I will probably start switching tanks to ph controllers as I can afford it. It was something I thought of while communicating with @chayos00. Once I found the core parts for a decent price I just ran with it.

Disclaimer: Alcohol was involved in the decision to pull the trigger on this project. HAHA. Now there is too much invested to turn back. Down the rabbit hole I go.


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

AguaScape said:


> Yeah. I love good tools. It was easy to justify.
> 
> Yes. It is a regulator assembly for MTS victims...


I need to do something along the same lines but it won't be nearly that elaborate. I'm somewhat saved by the fact that my tanks are scattered in multiple rooms in the house. Even I can't let myself get to the point that I'm installing gas outlet wall plates next to the RJ45s. ; )


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Mike A. said:


> I need to do something along the same lines but it won't be nearly that elaborate. I'm somewhat saved by the fact that my tanks are scattered in multiple rooms in the house. Even I can't let myself get to the point that I'm installing gas outlet wall plates next to the RJ45s. ; )


Part of it is the challenge of doing something that has never been done before. The wall plate idea intrigues me though. I have a crawlspace. would be easy for me to set up CO2 ports at each tank.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

I have to show off Regulator build #2 before it leaves my possession. Trading it with @OVT for an absolutely beautiful 24" square 60g Mr. Aqua tank at the Sacramento Plant Exchange this weekend. Really excited about that tank.

This one is a Praxair 4123391 with Wika 0-1500 and 0-100 liquid filled gauges with 316 SS wetted parts. It has a clippard mouse solenoid and Hoke 1315 needle valve.


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

AguaScape said:


> I have to show off Regulator build #2 before it leaves my possession. Trading it with @OVT for an absolutely beautiful 24" square 60g Mr. Aqua tank at the Sacramento Plant Exchange this weekend. Really excited about that tank.
> 
> This one is a Praxair 4123391 with Wika 0-1500 and 0-100 liquid filled gauges with 316 SS wetted parts. It has a clippard mouse solenoid and Hoke 1315 needle valve.


That's a nice one. 

I have the 18" version of that same tank. Wasn't sure that I'd like the cube format or not but I do a lot now. Have it set up in a place where you can view 3 sides and the stand is only ~18" high so you look down into it too. A little different and an interesting change vs the usual mostly only front view for an aquarium.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Mike A. said:


> That's a nice one.
> 
> I have the 18" version of that same tank. Wasn't sure that I'd like the cube format or not but I do a lot now. Have it set up in a place where you can view 3 sides and the stand is only ~18" high so you look down into it too. A little different and an interesting change vs the usual mostly only front view for an aquarium.


Yeah. The cube format allows for a lot of dimension. Even though my 180 has the same height and depth as the 60g cube it does not really provide the same effect on dimension that a cube has due to it's length. Looking forward to more of a 3d build that provides views from all directions. I was already looking for a rimless to enhance the openness I was looking for and this should be just the ticket. Now the challenge is building a stand that fits with everything else.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

My worst fears confirmed. I see a psychiatric ward in your future, @AguaScape.


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## Botia dude (Feb 6, 2005)

OVT said:


> My worst fears confirmed. I see a psychiatric ward in your future, @AguaScape.


As long as the psychiatric ward has a planted tank in the rec room he should be fine there ;-)


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

More parts arrived. Getting close to doing the actual (admittedly psychotic) build. Just need a few drill bits and a couple taps to start drilling my manifold (I don't trust my cheap drill bits and taps to not break while drilling). I have all my drill points and pathways planned and marked. I will be sanding and polishing my manifold once i get all the drill holes done. Hoping to show a gleaming piece of art in my next update. We shall see.... I decided to go with 4 secondary regulators due to the difficulty of finding 2" gauges of grade "A" quality and being able to tighten the metering valve/flow meters without resorting to tube fittings.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Botia dude said:


> As long as the psychiatric ward has a planted tank in the rec room he should be fine there ;-)


I believe that a planted tank is not only recommended, but should be required in any respectable psychiatric ward. The peace a planted tank provides could be far more effective than any psychotherapy.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

Looking good can't wait to see the finished product!! 

I started looking/pricing parts for my regulator, some 2.5" SS Wika gauges are almost $200 doe a pair. LOL Then of course finding nickel plated or SS fittings to make up a post body kit for that AirGas regulator.... Ugh... LOL 

I probably ought to start my own DIY regulator thread. Hmm.... 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

I was about 3/4 of the way through drilling my manifold. All my flow paths were done and I was drilling the holes for the regulator attachment bolts. 

And disaster strikes. I broke a drill bit in the manifold. If it was one of my cheap bits I could probably drill it out, but I was using a cobalt bit. 

Ordered a new piece of aluminum. 

I was drilling pilot holes with a 1/16 bit. Completely unnecessary in aluminum as most any drill size cuts it like butter. Lesson learned.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

Dang that sucks! (insert sad face emoji)


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

chayos00 said:


> Dang that sucks! (insert sad face emoji)


Yeah, it does. I would have probably gone with a new piece anyway since I made a few mistakes on clearances when I did my first marks. I prick punched the drill points on one side and realized that I did not have enough clearance for the drill/tap holes for the regulator attaching bolts. I switched my solenoids and input ports to the other side, but those little dimples behind the gauges would have driven me crazy. Not because it would be any less functional, but that it would not be as good as I could make it. I really want this manifold to be a work of art. Probably best that I had a dry run to make all possible mistakes so I can get it right. It is always a learning experience.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Got my new chunk of aluminum and my solenoids. Pre-sanded the manifold to remove machining marks and have it marked out for drill holes. Will do my 2nd attempt at drilling tomorrow. Everything should fall into place if drilling goes right this time.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Drilled. Tapped. Sanded to 120 grit. I dry fit one sub assembly. Not going to do actual assembly until I have cleaned every passage with rubbing alcohol (to remove drill and tap oil) and I sand it down to 1200 and buff it with rouge and white compounds. Should be a mirror when it is done.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

AguaScape said:


> Drilled. Tapped. Sanded to 120 grit. I dry fit one sub assembly. Not going to do actual assembly until I have cleaned every passage with rubbing alcohol (to remove drill and tap oil) and I sand it down to 1200 and buff it with rouge and white compounds. Should be a mirror when it is done.


Sweet glad things worked this time! When I did my LED heatsink, I first hosed it off in the tub with the hot water set as high as the water heater would take it and then hosed off all the tap oil that way first before using an alcohol to give it a final clean. As yours is smaller, you could fill a sink up and fill it with Dawn soap to cut the grease too. 

Can't wait to see it finished! 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Got it sanded down to 1500 grit and tried to polish it with rouge. Either my angle grinder is spinning way to fast and hot to polish cleanly (14000 RPM) or I am getting residue burn from uncleaned oils from my drill holes. I am getting black marks extending from the drill holes. Had to re-sand with 600 and 1500 to remove the (burn?) marks. It really looks good with a 1500 grit sand, but I really want a polished surface to protect against oxidation. Thinking I will need to clean further by boiling the entire manifold in soapy water and I will probably have to invest in a lower speed or adjustable speed angle grinder.


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## Botia dude (Feb 6, 2005)

AguaScape said:


> Got it sanded down to 1500 grit and tried to polish it with rouge. Either my angle grinder is spinning way to fast and hot to polish cleanly (14000 RPM) or I am getting residue burn from uncleaned oils from my drill holes. I am getting black marks extending from the drill holes. Had to re-sand with 600 and 1500 to remove the (burn?) marks. It really looks good with a 1500 grit sand, but I really want a polished surface to protect against oxidation. Thinking I will need to clean further by boiling the entire manifold in soapy water and I will probably have to invest in a lower speed or adjustable speed angle grinder.


Found this process that could help you out. I think 14k rpm is too high and the streaks are likely burned rouge. 

https://www.instructables.com/id/Polishing-Machined-Aluminum-to-a-Mirror-like-Finis/


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Botia dude said:


> Found this process that could help you out. I think 14k rpm is too high and the streaks are likely burned rouge.
> 
> https://www.instructables.com/id/Polishing-Machined-Aluminum-to-a-Mirror-like-Finis/


I was watching a similar video when I decided to polish my manifold. They also recommended a much lower speed for polishing. I think it is a combination of factors though. The burn streaks start at the drill holes which makes me think that residual oil could be a factor as well. I think it might be best if I approach it on both fronts. More complete cleaning and lower rpm. Unfortunately a low or variable rpm angle grinder is expensive. I may decide to use a bench grinder with the guard removed as that will fit the recommended rpm range and be less expensive. I would also like to add a bench grinder to my arsenal of tools anyway. Kind of funny that a bench grinder was the very first power tool I ever bought and I have not had one in over 20 years.


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## Botia dude (Feb 6, 2005)

AguaScape said:


> I was watching a similar video when I decided to polish my manifold. They also recommended a much lower speed for polishing. I think it is a combination of factors though. The burn streaks start at the drill holes which makes me think that residual oil could be a factor as well. I think it might be best if I approach it on both fronts. More complete cleaning and lower rpm. Unfortunately a low or variable rpm angle grinder is expensive. I may decide to use a bench grinder with the guard removed as that will fit the recommended rpm range and be less expensive. I would also like to add a bench grinder to my arsenal of tools anyway. Kind of funny that a bench grinder was the very first power tool I ever bought and I have not had one in over 20 years.


It's possible it could be residual oil but I doubt it. What I think is probably happening is the edge of the hole is catching the rouge and pulling it out of the polishing wheel you're using. At the same time it's also being dragged out of the hole. The heat is then discoloring it. 

I could be wrong. I often am  I've had the same thing happen with a low speed cotton polishing disc on my drill press when the work piece gets warm and that's a much lower temp than you're seeing with aluminum and 14k rpm. Just like copper, aluminum is soft and conducts heat very very well so any high speed sanding or polishing gets the temp up quick. I've had copper epoxied to wood separate with just a few passes on the grinder belt because I wasn't dipping it in water often enough or for long enough. West system epoxy has a high temp failure rate too.

A hand held car buffer with metal polish after wet sanding to 2k will probably get you where you want in a few minutes.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Botia dude said:


> It's possible it could be residual oil but I doubt it. What I think is probably happening is the edge of the hole is catching the rouge and pulling it out of the polishing wheel you're using. At the same time it's also being dragged out of the hole. The heat is then discoloring it.
> 
> I could be wrong. I often am  I've had the same thing happen with a low speed cotton polishing disc on my drill press when the work piece gets warm and that's a much lower temp than you're seeing with aluminum and 14k rpm. Just like copper, aluminum is soft and conducts heat very very well so any high speed sanding or polishing gets the temp up quick. I've had copper epoxied to wood separate with just a few passes on the grinder belt because I wasn't dipping it in water often enough or for long enough. West system epoxy has a high temp failure rate too.
> 
> A hand held car buffer with metal polish after wet sanding to 2k will probably get you where you want in a few minutes.


I suspect you are correct. I did notice a significant increase in temperature of the manifold when I was polishing. I do have a hand held car buffer and polishing compounds. I think it might be worth trying that.


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

AguaScape said:


> ...Either my angle grinder is spinning way to fast and hot to polish cleanly (14000 RPM)...


Yeah, that's way, way too high. For comparison my big Baldor buffer that's made for doing this kind of thing runs at 3,600. Even at that you need to go kind of easy with a softer metal like aluminum.

I spend lots of time every week finishing a product that I make. Mirror finish is a pain in the ass. Especially if you're not really set up to do it. You'll be there forever trying to get it perfect. And just when you think that it is, it will spontaneously develop warps and scratches and pits other defects just by looking at it. If it were me, I'd just leave it with very fine brushed look or take it somewhere and have it blasted to a nice even satin finish. Easy and it will look just as nice or better. Done.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Mike A. said:


> Yeah, that's way, way too high. For comparison my big Baldor buffer that's made for doing this kind of thing runs at 3,600. Even at that you need to go kind of easy with a softer metal like aluminum.
> 
> I spend lots of time every week finishing a product that I make. Mirror finish is a pain in the ass. Especially if you're not really set up to do it. You'll be there forever trying to get it perfect. And just when you think that it is, it will spontaneously develop warps and scratches and pits other defects just by looking at it. If it were me, I'd just leave it with very fine brushed look or take it somewhere and have it blasted to a nice even satin finish. Easy and it will look just as nice or better. Done.


Yeah. I have noticed that even with a 1500 grit sand that if I do not fold the sand paper around it to make sure that it stays 100% in line with the piece that I see uneven patterns. Even if I were able to get a mirror finish, I would have to clear coat it to prevent marks from regular handling. It seems I may be shooting too high in my quest for perfection. Thank you for your advice. I do appreciate it.


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

AguaScape said:


> Yeah. I have noticed that even with a 1500 grit sand that if I do not fold the sand paper around it to make sure that it stays 100% in line with the piece that I see uneven patterns. Even if I were able to get a mirror finish, I would have to clear coat it to prevent marks from regular handling. It seems I may be shooting too high in my quest for perfection. Thank you for your advice. I do appreciate it.


Real tough to keep things straight doing it by hand. At least your piece is reasonably small, simple, and square. Might try making a quick jig. Just a couple of strips of wood to make a channel |_|. Leave a gap under to slide a piece of paper. Wet it down good so that it stays in place. Slide the paper just a bit and flip the part a few times as you go to get a little more randomization to the grain.

What I think looks nice for something like this is doing a high polish over grain/tooling marks. Gives it kind of a cleaned up industrial look. Call it satin with a shine.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

I might submit that the work is not all that bad, you may just not be comparing it to the work others are doing. Take a look at this Star Hopper which elon Musk is proposing to launch and tell me how you feel about your metal work? I thought rockets had to be really clean and really shiny to fly really fast? Or do these folks just not understand? 
I'm certainly not wanting to ride this big boy after they assemble it outside in the Texas sand and wind!
But doesn't it make your work look better? :wink2:


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

PlantedRich said:


> I might submit that the work is not all that bad, you may just not be comparing it to the work others are doing. Take a look at this Star Hopper which elon Musk is proposing to launch and tell me how you feel about your metal work? I thought rockets had to be really clean and really shiny to fly really fast? Or do these folks just not understand?
> I'm certainly not wanting to ride this big boy after they assemble it outside in the Texas sand and wind!
> But doesn't it make your work look better? :wink2:


I had to look it up to see if it really looks that bad. Apparently it does, and the top half blew off in a wind storm. Wow...

Bump:


Mike A. said:


> Real tough to keep things straight doing it by hand. At least your piece is reasonably small, simple, and square. Might try making a quick jig. Just a couple of strips of wood to make a channel |_|. Leave a gap under to slide a piece of paper. Wet it down good so that it stays in place. Slide the paper just a bit and flip the part a few times as you go to get a little more randomization to the grain.
> 
> What I think looks nice for something like this is doing a high polish over grain/tooling marks. Gives it kind of a cleaned up industrial look. Call it satin with a shine.


Brilliant. I will be making a jig like you suggest. Too late for the satin with shine look. No tooling marks or grain left.


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

If you have a belt sander or you can do it by hand with sanding blocks, put a brushed finish on it, than polish it. Looks really nice. Just an idea


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

This is sanded to 1500 grit. I used a random orbit sander for 120 and 220 grits. Then used a sanding block for 320, 400, and 600. for 1500 grit I used sanding block first and then wrapped it around it so I could try to keep everything linear. I still have not decided whether to go with full polish, or using the previously recommended jig to get a perfectly straight brushed look. With either of these options I would probably have to clear-coat to preserve the finish. The third option is to go back to the random orbit finish which creates a very nice matte look which is much more resistant to showing marks and blemishes and would not require a clear coat. I kinda had my heart set on a fully polished look, but I am seeing the benefit of going straight grain or matte because even at this level of finish I am already fighting marks and blemishes. Not sure if my obsession with perfection is purely OCD or more influenced by my desire to show off. Probably the latter. I am a Leo.


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

Sorry I must've missed the post that said you already put a nice brush finish on it. Another option instead of building a jig. Is to just rest your master piece up against a straight edge and run your standing block against it. I dont know if your familiar with Diamond Magic, it works really nice for polishing metals.


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

Your block's gonna be down to about 1/3 the size by the time you're finished finishing. ; )


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

Mike A. said:


> Your block's gonna be down to about 1/3 the size by the time you're finished finishing. ; )


Kind of along these lines, but with all this manual work to the surface, how well are those holes going to seal and not produce a leak unless the fittings are of the tapered kind where screwing in on it's own seals the holes. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

chayos00 said:


> Kind of along these lines, but with all this manual work to the surface, how well are those holes going to seal and not produce a leak unless the fittings are of the tapered kind where screwing in on it's own seals the holes.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


The NPT threads and parts are tapered. I also use anaerobic sealants at the suggestion of @jeffkrol. The 10-32 holes are straight threads, but they are just to hold the manifold type parts (solenoids and regulators) in place and O-Rings create the actual seal. Everything is very smooth and flat. The only rounding is on the ends where I slightly rounded off the edges. The only hand sanding (without a block) is 1500 grit which barely removes any material.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

I have all the parts gathered. Going with a setup with no brass finishes (I want everything to have a SS look). I wanted to go with 316 stainless on all parts due to the finished look, but price and availability come into play. Some parts will be 316, others will be 304 (which has a more matte finish), and the QC connectors are chromed brass and obviously the manifold itself is aluminum. Regardless, everything will have a silver color which should carry the theme. The main manifold body is just waiting on my decision on the finish. I sanded it to 2000 grit and then used a 3000 grit sanding pad to sand it even further. It looks pretty sexy with the 3k sand. I will try one attempt to actually get a true polish (using my car buffer and new pads) and if that fails, I will probably go back to the 3000 grit sanded finish. The next step will be setting up the smart strip/power supply assembly. Have all the parts for that except for a suitable project box. Having difficulty finding a box of the right length that is not huge. I may have to fabricate a box.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

I decided that I was obsessing too much about the finish and chose to just go with the 3000 grit finish. I would be fighting blemishes and scratches endlessly and the body itself was not perfect to start with. It came with some existing edge dents that would never come out. 

My reg assembly is 90% built. I accidentally purchased a 30" Hg Vacuum-0-30 psi gauge [no need for vacuum measurement on our applications] so I am ordering a new 0-30 winters gauge. Also waiting on my RMA-151 SSV that I ordered. 

A couple teaser pics on the assembly so far and a pic of another build I am working on. This build is using a Swagelok SS-SS4 metering valve with Nupro vernier handle. Very high precision.


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

Nice job. That looks great.

What are the cylinders at the bottom?


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Mike A. said:


> Nice job. That looks great.
> 
> What are the cylinders at the bottom?


Those are the secondary regulators. I have two 0-60 and two 0-30 psi Tescom manifold mount regulators. The 0-30's will be feeding into reactors and the 0-60s will have the option of using diffusers.


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

AguaScape said:


> Those are the secondary regulators. I have two 0-60 and two 0-30 psi Tescom manifold mount regulators. The 0-30's will be feeding into reactors and the 0-60s will have the option of using diffusers.


Thought that was what they looked like. Wasn't sure what you were doing with them. I picked up some similar Cole-Parmer pressure regulating flow controllers to do something similar. Yours are smaller/cleaner. Fits your manifold well. 

How are you splitting out the lines to each branch?


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Mike A. said:


> Thought that was what they looked like. Wasn't sure what you were doing with them. I picked up some similar Cole-Parmer pressure regulating flow controllers to do something similar. Yours are smaller/cleaner. Fits your manifold well.
> 
> How are you splitting out the lines to each branch?


The manifold size was based upon the footprint of the regulators. I am distributing flow with this. I managed to find a fixed 60 psi Swagelok high flow regulator with distribution manifold and pressure switch for $70. I think it was a great score. I reversed the position of the primary regulator so that the output is next to the distribution manifold for cleaner lines.


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

Problem that I have (as you're addressing) is that I have 4 lines with everything from a short 2' run with little to no resistance and a lot of flow to +25' runs to diffusers that want +25-30 psi where I want relatively little flow. No matter how you have metering valves set, gas wants to follow the path of least resistance and they're not going to have much of anything to meter when most of it is headed somewhere else. That on top of turning things on/off at different times which then changes all of how you have things balanced. Kinda makes it a lot more complicated than I originally anticipated. e.g., The pictures of the 6-way splitter as on the first page of this thread look cool but that's not going to work real well unless they're all feeding pretty much the same thing at the same time. So, bottom line, I need to better isolate things into at least 2 higher vs 2 lower pressure zones as you have. Probably should have just grabbed another tank and regulator and split things up but I've already crawled down my own rabbit hole now so... ; )


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Mike A. said:


> Problem that I have (as you're addressing) is that I have 4 lines with everything from a short 2' run with little to no resistance to +25' runs to diffusers that want +25-30 psi. No matter how you have metering valves set, gas wants to follow the path of least resistance and they're not going to have much of anything to meter when most of it is headed somewhere else. That on top of turning things on/off at different times which then changes all of how you have things balanced. Kinda makes it a lot more complicated than I originally anticipated. e.g., The pictures of the 6-way splitter as on the first page of this thread look cool but that's not going to work real well unless they're all feeding pretty much the same thing at the same time. So, bottom line, I need to better isolate things into at least 2 higher vs 2 lower pressure zones as you have. Probably should have just grabbed another tank and regulator and split things up but I've already crawled down my own rabbit hole now so... ; )


I can see how that could be difficult. Multiple flow paths from a single source will always create problems if primary measures (Pressure, Flow, and Timing) are not independently controlled. Rabbit holes are my thing. You only need to look into what I dug myself into on this project for one example (there are other examples). The whole idea of this concept was to provide different pressure, flow rates and timers to 4 different locations with completely independent controls from a single tank. Overkill? Maybe... But, why the hell not? Some of it is about doing something that no one has ever done before.


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

AguaScape said:


> I can see how that could be difficult. Multiple flow paths from a single source will always create problems if primary measures (Pressure, Flow, and Timing) are not independently controlled. Rabbit holes are my thing. You only need to look into what I dug myself into on this project for one example (there are other examples). The whole idea of this concept was to provide different pressure, flow rates and timers to 4 different locations with completely independent controls from a single tank. Overkill? Maybe... But, why the hell not? Some of it is about doing something that no one has ever done before.


Yep. And you can pick up some nice higher-end surplus lab stuff to do it on ebay for basically nothing so what the hell. Drop in the bucket for what I've put into this hobby otherwise. The pressure regulating flow controllers that I got meter both pressure and flow in a single device so I'm going to (try) to use those to balance things into two separate high/low pressure/flow zones and then go from there with the downstream controls to individual tanks. That should give me constant supply at whatever pressure/flow rate to either side independent of one another. 

BTW, I found some much nicer flowmeters than the Dwyer while looking for something to use with smaller tanks - the Cole-Parmer correlated and direct read flowmeters (actually made by Aalborg using Dakota valves for the precision valves I think). Various versions available but generally this:

https://www.coleparmer.com/p/correlated-flowmeters-with-high-resolution-valves-1717/1717 

Better breakdown of specific models:

https://pim-resources.coleparmer.com/data-sheet/m24507.pdf

Rather than the Dwyer with completely different meters for different flows/ranges, these use kind of a "Lego" approach. There's a frame (aluminum, brass, or stainless), a variety of tubes with different ranges that fit into the frame (65mm or 150mm), various floats (glass, sapphire, stainless, etc.) that are different weights which then give a different range of readings within the tubes for a given flow rate, and a range of either standard or precision valves to make whatever adjustments (Low Medium, High for standard or 1-6 for the precision needle valves). The scale is based simply on the height in mm and is independent of whatever you're measuring. You do the correlation separately and on a relative basis. So they can be set up whatever you want from, for example, very low flow with a light glass float and precision valve to very high flow with a heavy float and more coarse control within the same basic frame/meter. They also have some direct-read meters that are already set up to read in mm/min for specific gases (CO2, N2, H2, O2, etc.) at standard pressure/temp. I've bought up most all of the cheap ones available right now but they seem to be relatively inexpensive (~$20) and available under a variety of rebranded names (Cole, Brooks, Aalborg, Porter, etc.).


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Curse you @Mike A. You just opened up a new rabbit hole for me. It’s not like I don’t have enough of them already.... Haha.


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

AguaScape said:


> Curse you @Mike A. You just opened up a new rabbit hole for me. It’s not like I don’t have enough of them already.... Haha.


YW! *cue evil laugh* >

Seriously, probably not as useful if you're running at higher rates. They're nicer meters overall but functionally the Dwyers do what you need to do well enough in that case. More so for lower rates where you're working at the bottom end of the scale on even the Dwyer 151. e.g., The image below shows how the lower-range meter using tube number N042-07 works. Using that same meter/tube with different floats you can have a range from ~1-5.8 mm/min with the glass float, to ~1-10 with the sapphire, to ~5-19 with the stainless, and so on... 










A nice thing about the lowest range meter is that coincidentally the correlation for CO2 (vs air as shown) just happens to nearly match that as marked. i.e., 65 on the meter = 6.6 ml/min CO2. That's at standard pressure/temp so off a little in practical use but still pretty close.

Very easy to change the tubes and floats but buying them new I'm sure they're ridiculously priced. So mostly left to scavenging ebay for parts to mix 'n match. Actually, the floats aren't too bad new @ $10. Valves also just unscrew from the frame. 

If you do need something at lower rates then I can give you a quick course in what to look for when browsing for them... Tube number tells you which tube (duh). Black floats are glass, red sapphire, shiny metal is stainless. Standard valves will be marked either L, M, or H. Precision valves are 1-6 with 1 being the lowest rate/more precise. For our purposes the L or 1 is what you want. The standard valves are roughly equivalent to what comes with the Dwyer. The precision are a better needle valve. Valve details here with VCL, VCM, VCH corresponding to L, M, H and VM1-VM6 corresponding to the 1-6 numbering:

http://www.aalborg.com/images/file_to_download/en_Aalborg_EM20181003_VB_Valves.pdf 

I believe same as the Dakota valves here: 

https://www.dakotainstruments.com/v...stock-metering-valve-mfvs-brass-straight-flow

As I said, the precision valves are nicer, better valves but I don't really see much difference in practical use. The standard ones work fine. Actually a little less touchy and easier to adjust. Not really like you're going to be able to accurately dial in 1/10 of a mm/min anyway.

I'll probably have two of the direct-read CO2 meters that I picked up available after I finish figuring out what I need/want to do. They're set up to directly meter CO2 (vs air) at standard pressure/temp on a 0-50 mm/min scale. Likely a little on the high side for my purposes. Probably some other left-overs.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Seems you would be better off getting the Dakota and a valveless flowmeter... 
Except for scavenging..

Fabco vs Hoke Micromite (bit better known than Dakota)


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Seems you would be better off getting the Dakota and a valveless flowmeter...
> Except for scavenging..


True buying new. The Cole-Parmer stuff and most of the rest are all priced for people with research budgets not for some knucklehead like me to use running his aquarium.

Scavenging the ones that I got were all in the ~$20-$30 range. Paid less for the nicer ones with better valves than I did for some without. 

One favorable thing about stuff like this on ebay is that in a lot of cases the sellers have a bunch of random surplus stuff that they just want to move. Unless it's something special with some obvious value they don't know or care what it is and they'll usually take low-ball offers just to get it sold and out of there.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

@Mike A. The thing that is exciting to me is the modular aspect and the 4 or 5 tube arrays that I saw on the Flea. I love having everything in one unit (Kind of obvious from what I built). Will make for a nice look once I get my CO2 cabinet set up as well. I am thinking I will have all my custom bits on top of the stand for all to see and the cabinet itself will hold the tanks, reactors, plumbing, and electrical. All my tanks are 50 gallon or larger though, so I think I will be fine with the Dwyers for now. That could change at any time though. I have been known to do that. I may be interested in leftovers. Going to have to wind up the current progress and get things in operation first. Then I have a couple tanks to scape. I 100% agree with the lowball perspective. Almost everything I have was purchased by making offers and often people just have no idea of what they have. Question, do you have a photo of the flow data for the next level up on their flow tubes (for lack of a better known description). Or perhaps a link to the data sheet? I will definitely need capability of higher than 36 ml/min on my 180 gal. Some kind of cross reference for the alternate brands and model equivalents would be a huge help as well. OMFG. I just can't avoid rabbit holes!! Here we go again....

Bump:


jeffkrol said:


> Seems you would be better off getting the Dakota and a valveless flowmeter...
> Except for scavenging..
> 
> Fabco vs Hoke Micromite (bit better known than Dakota)


I was actually considering running Dakota valves to my flow meters as you suggest. They are very sleek and high precision. The only obstacle was that they only seem to be available from Dakota at full price. $88 a pop (x4) was price prohibitive considering how much I already have spent. Granted, $88 is very cheap for a new high precision metering valve. In fact, it is the best price out there by far.


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

AguaScape said:


> @Mike A. The thing that is exciting to me is the modular aspect and the 4 or 5 tube arrays that I saw on the Flea. I love having everything in one unit (Kind of obvious from what I built). Will make for a nice look once I get my CO2 cabinet set up as well. I am thinking I will have all my custom bits on top of the stand for all to see and the cabinet itself will hold the tanks, reactors, plumbing, and electrical. All my tanks are 50 gallon or larger though, so I think I will be fine with the Dwyers for now. That could change at any time though. I have been known to do that. I may be interested in leftovers. Going to have to wind up the current progress and get things operation first. Then I have a couple tanks to scape. I 100% agree with the lowball perspective. Almost everything I have was purchased by making offers and often people just have no idea of what they have. Question, do you have a photo of the flow data for the next level up on their flow tubes (for lack of a better known description). Or perhaps a link to the data sheet? I will definitely need capability of higher than 36 ml/min on my 180 gal. Some kind of cross reference for the alternate brands and model equivalents would be a huge help as well. OMFG. I just can't avoid rabbit holes!! Here we go again....


Yeah, saw those frames too and thought about it. Like you said, I need to make sure that stuff works first.

Unfortunately I don't have anything for a higher range. That was taken from one of the auctions. Received a paper copy of the same with one that I bought that was new. 

This will give you the part number for the meter in various configs:

https://pim-resources.coleparmer.com/data-sheet/m24507.pdf

Also catalog of meters/tubes/valves/etc. here:

https://cms.esi.info/Media/documents/ColeP_flowmeters1_ML.pdf

Pick one that's close and give their tech support a call them they should be able to point you to the same kind of info for it. They're very helpful. Actually know their stuff and if they don't know then they'll check and get back to you. 

Good luck as far as any kind of cross reference. Cole's part numbers alone are a mess. They have 5 different numbering schemes for the same thing. Part numbers that you'll see on ebay correspond to nothing. They can figure out what frame/tube/float/valve it is from internal resources but nothing that they could point me to. And that's just their own, not even considering other re-brands. You can kind of tell what's what after looking at them long enough but doesn't give you an easy way to search for things.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Mike A. said:


> True buying new. The Cole-Parmer stuff and most of the rest are all priced for people with research budgets not for some knucklehead like me to use running his aquarium.
> 
> Scavenging the ones that I got were all in the ~$20-$30 range. Paid less for the nicer ones with better valves than I did for some without.
> 
> One favorable thing about stuff like this on ebay is that in a lot of cases the sellers have a bunch of random surplus stuff that they just want to move. Unless it's something special with some obvious value they don't know or care what it is and they'll usually take low-ball offers just to get it sold and out of there.



OK you made me waste a few bucks..
You high graded all the cole stuff but left an oddball I couldn't resist.
No hard info on "except" some possibilities.. (and of course it may be interchangeable anyways.)
Cole-Parmer.-Aalborg-Gilmont chain of possibilities regarding this used one.
*Cole Palmer PMR1-010354 Flow Meter *



Pretty sure the range is too big but the "2" was intriguing.
C/p numbers don't match,Aaborgs either and limited info on Gilmont.. but that and Dakota are all seem historically related. 

Pretty sure it matches the Dakota/Aalbrog VM2-BB-1A metering valve w/ a Cv of .001


Soo worse comes to worse.. remove the ss float and be left w/ a decent metering valve...


Now if it is a wee too big only need to find a lighter "floaty ball" than the ss one included..

Here's one w/ a "1"..
https://gcplastics.com/partsmisc/aalborg-pmr1-10349-single-flow-tube-meter
$90 "1" Gilmont on the bay..



> *NEW Gilmont 150mm Flowmeter 0.12-2.34 H2O,SS,PRC VALVE GF-8542-1100 SEE SPECS!*
> Precision 15-turn interchangeable metering valve. Type 316 stainless steel wetted end blocks, fittings, internal parts. Air: 8.1 to 140mL/min. Water: 0.12 to 2.34mL/min. Accuracy: +-5% of full scale. Repeatability: 0.25% of scale. Max. operating: 250psig; 121[degree]C.


Point is you will find them under Cole, Aaborg, or Gilmont..


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Kind of leaning towards the Porter alternatives due to price and availability. FleaBay #333052918800 seems attractive. They do appear to be completely sealed units though. Not modular. Absolutely no idea which type of ball they use. Searching the Parker site I came up with this for a data sheet. Seems to be in the ball park for my tank sizes. Looking at B-125-6 on the data sheet. Any idea if the balls can be swapped out to customize this model? Thinking that two glass, one sapphire and, one stainless steel would be ideal for my needs if they can be swapped.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

@jeffkrol If I read you well, I foresee you being a big drum beater on this type of flow meter in the future if you have favorable results. Might have to change my member name to Mattradamus if I am right (Nastradamus reference). My real name is Matthew


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> OK you made me waste a few bucks..
> You high graded all the cole stuff but left an oddball I couldn't resist.
> No hard info on "except" some possibilities.. (and of course it may be interchangeable anyways.)
> Cole-Parmer.-Aalborg-Gilmont chain of possibilities regarding this used one.
> ...


That looks to be one of the 150s. Same idea but uses a 150mm tube vs the 65mm format as above. Quite a bit larger but better resolution.



> Pretty sure it matches the Dakota/Aalbrog VM2-BB-1A metering valve w/ a Cv of .001
> 
> Soo worse comes to worse.. remove the ss float and be left w/ a decent metering valve...
> 
> Now if it is a wee too big only need to find a lighter "floaty ball" than the ss one included..


Yep, that should be the case for the "2" valve - 400 mm/min max flow rate. 0.042 orifice. 0.001 Cv. The "1" does 200 mm/min max rate, same orifice, 0.0005 Cv.

They sell the floats if you need to change it out. I don't have a link for the glass but as below for the stainless. Call and they can point you to it. No shipping charge with the quote that they did for me for the stainless.

https://www.coleparmer.com/i/cole-parmer-floatss-1-8/0321789?searchterm=03217-89

Somewhere I found a link to a vid showing how to swap/clean the tubes/float. I'll try to find it again. I've done it and it's relatively easy. Unscrew the front. Unscrew the back. Allen wrench in socket at the top raises/lowers a little cylinder/seal to the top of the tube. Raise that and pop it out. It may stick to the top or bottom rubber seal. Just push up/down some and it should come out. Once out, there's a plastic stop/plug at the top and bottom of tube. Pull that and the float comes out. A little tight getting the plug out/in but nothing complicated. I used a pair of precision tweezers and a dental pick to pull it.

Bump:


AguaScape said:


> Kind of leaning towards the Porter alternatives due to price and availability. FleaBay #333052918800 seems attractive. They do appear to be completely sealed units though. Not modular. Absolutely no idea which type of ball they use. Searching the Parker site I came up with this for a data sheet. Seems to be in the ball park for my tank sizes. Looking at B-125-6 on the data sheet. Any idea if the balls can be swapped out to customize this model? Thinking that two glass, one sapphire and, one stainless steel would be ideal for my needs if they can be swapped.


Those Porters with the one-piece frame are a little different. Haven't had any of those in hand. Similar idea but not sure that they're the same as the others.

Edit to add:

Here's the vid showing how they're put together and how to change the float:

https://www.coleparmer.com/tech-article/variable-area-flowmeters-maintenance

On second look I think that the one-piece Porters are the same, just a different frame. Not sure how they come apart. Probably remove through the top. Looks to be a plug of sorts there.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

AguaScape said:


> @*jeffkrol* If I read you well, I foresee you being a big drum beater on this type of flow meter in the future if you have favorable results. Might have to change my member name to Mattradamus if I am right (Nastradamus reference). My real name is Matthew





Well .. I am a sucker for a precision valve.. 


Precise valve and bubble counter will always have value for smaller tanks..


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

AguaScape said:


> Question, do you have a photo of the flow data for the next level up on their flow tubes (for lack of a better known description)...



Just as another data point, saw this today posted with one of the 150mm meters:












No valve with this one but it's $13 or best offer shipped. Likely new if it has the paperwork. Looks to have the glass float (@jeffkrol that might be an easy way to get a different float if you need one.) They have it listed under the number for the tube instead of the meter: "Cole-Parmer 03267-04 49.1 mL/min 150mm Correlated Flowmeter"

Also found to gauge the effect of increased pressure vs the standard pressure/temp as shown:

18.9 mL/min @ 1 atmos./14.7 psi = 83 mL/min @ 50 psi
49.1 mL/min @ 1 atmos./14.7 psi =191.6 mL/min @ 50 psi
60.6 mL/min @ 1 atmos./14.7 psi =242 mL/min @ 50 psi

Don't think that scales on a linear basis for lower pressures but as a ballpark value ~4X @ 50 psi. And again that's for air not CO2 but doesn't make much practical difference in our use since we're looking at relative vs actual values. 

P.S. Is there a way to scale images in the links here?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Mike A. said:


> Just as another data point, saw this today posted with one of the 150mm meters:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Image. not really unless you import it to your image space here and then it is one size and usually too small..


Cole-palmer has pdf's for asst. gasses ect at their web site IF you have the correct number..
https://www.coleparmer.com/i/cole-p...er-w-o-valve-aluminum-49-1-ml-min-air/0326704


Odd though, this one doesn't have CO2 some do...
https://www.coleparmer.com/i/cole-p...lowmeter-w-valve-316ss-374-ml-min-air/0321913
https://pim-resources.coleparmer.com/data-sheet/112-02-gl-co2.pdf


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

FYI: SINCE it wasn't mentioned and I had to check myself..

You read at the widest part.. center of the ball.
There are other shapes.but usually always the widest part is the "mark"....
Personal note re: "the one" I just bought.
On checking the pics it looks like the tube is marked:
062-01-N
Which is unusual a bit.. The "N" should be the float type though possib. stands for "none"

Good thing though is the high range is determined by the ball.
Steel should top out at 262-ish
Switching to sapphire drops it to 244
glass 92 all ml/minute of air.

Since these are listed 10% range I believe that would be approx 26-262


> Tables list maximum fl ow rates of fl ow tubes. The usable range of meters is at least 10:1, often more. Thus, as a rule
> of thumb, to estimate the minimum metering limit divide the flow rates listed, by ten.


co2 is listed at 272 w/ steel.


We shall see...

http://www.aalborg.com/images/file_to_download/en_Aalborg_EM20181003_Rotameter_Catalog.pdf


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> On checking the pics it looks like the tube is marked:
> 062-01-N
> Which is unusual a bit.. The "N" should be the float type though possib. stands for "none"


One of those that I bought also has the "-N" numbering. It also has a stainless ball. The different thing about it vs the others that I picked up is that the part number on the label is for the frame only vs a complete meter. Which according to Cole means that it probably was ordered as individual parts vs as a complete meter. The latter they can look up by the part number to tell what each component in that unit was as it was sold. So you may be right with the "none" if it was ordered as a tube with the frame, float, and valve specified individually.

Kind of interestingly all of those that I bought in groups of more than one have either sequential serial numbers or are within one or two numbers. Also, the part numbers differ for what seems to be the same components in the meter across different groups. Which makes me think that they probably built most of these to order and/or assigned part numbers by order. Which would explain why the part numbers that you see on the white labels don't match up with anything in the catalogs or other references.

Also kind of interesting, even Dwyer seems to have sold these same meters re-labeled at one time. (Not one of mine. They want $155 for it so it will stay not one of mine.)


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

AguaScape said:


> I have to show off Regulator build #2 before it leaves my possession. Trading it with @OVT for an absolutely beautiful 24" square 60g Mr. Aqua tank at the Sacramento Plant Exchange this weekend. Really excited about that tank.
> 
> This one is a Praxair 4123391 with Wika 0-1500 and 0-100 liquid filled gauges with 316 SS wetted parts. It has a clippard mouse solenoid and Hoke 1315 needle valve.


Where'd you source those Wika gauges from? I've been looking tonight and can only get both of them from the MFG website. About $100-110 for the pair is what I'm seeing. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

chayos00 said:


> Where'd you source those Wika gauges from? I've been looking tonight and can only get both of them from the MFG website. About $100-110 for the pair is what I'm seeing.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


 Pressure Gauge 4252951 160 PSI 1/4 NPT LN[/B]

[/URL]New (Other)
$14.00

FAST 'N FREE
Buy It Now
Guaranteed by Fri, Feb. 15Free Shipping




Guess....


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

jeffkrol said:


> Pressure Gauge 4252951 160 PSI 1/4 NPT LN[/B]
> 
> [/URL]New (Other)
> $14.00
> ...


Thanks Jeff, I'm specifically looking for their stainless steel ones as I've got a nickel plated regulator, which seem to be the harder ones to find online. 

Also fleabay links get removed. If you post the number in the link that usually works to find them. For example what I found searching the name of your item. 

/itm/WIKA-Pressure-Gauge-4252951-160-PSI-1-4-NPT-LN/333031566727?hash =item4d8a3a6d87:g:qPcAAOSwE0JbZZiN

The number part after the name is usually it. 333031566727. 

Now let's see if that partial link gets removed. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

chayos00 said:


> Thanks Jeff, I'm specifically looking for their stainless steel ones as I've got a nickel plated regulator, which seem to be the harder ones to find online...


Check your PMs.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

I used to just post the number..but titles work as well..


> WIKA Pressure Gauge 4252951 160 PSI


Just c/p-ed the wrong thing above..

titles allow related items to pop up..
Like this when I did the above..


> WIKA T131.11 Pressure Gauge, 0-160 PSI, 2" Dial w/ 1/4" NPT Bottom Mount, Dry


2" dial 0-160psi ss all around.. 

or:
WIKA PRESSURE DIFFERENTIAL GAUGE LIQUID FILLED Type 233.53. 2.5” Range 100 PSI.

no hp gauges..yet.. in ss... and not sureif you need lh or rh threads..
Btw liq filled is unnecessary unless you vibrate your tank..


----------



## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

jeffkrol said:


> I used to just post the number..but titles work as well..
> 
> 
> Just c/p-ed the wrong thing above..
> ...


Never thought about which direction the threads go... I'll have to go take them apart now. Hahaha 

I'm now back on the hunt with a fresh mind to see if I can find the setup I like. Thanks!! 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

chayos00 said:


> Where'd you source those Wika gauges from? I've been looking tonight and can only get both of them from the MFG website. About $100-110 for the pair is what I'm seeing.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


It took a lot of searching to find them. Flea Bay and Amazon.

search flea bay with this for a 0-100

WIKA PRESSURE DIFFERENTIAL GAUGE LIQUID FILLED Type 233.53. 2.5” Range 100 PSI.

This for a 60 psi.

Wika 9831873 Pressure Gauge 0-60 PSI

The 1500 psi one is harder to find. 

Found this one, but it is not liquid fillable

NEW WIKA 2.5" PRESSURE GAUGE 1500 PSI 1/4" NPT , 232.53

I gave up on trying to find them for my manifold assembly and went with the winters gauges.


----------



## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Btw liq filled is unnecessary unless you vibrate your tank..


This is 100% true. I just like the look of the liquid filled gauges.


----------



## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

Thanks for the help today folks, I just placed my order through Wika's online site, as I couldn't find a matching pair of gauges for the low and the high anywhere online, well I take that back, one set on Amazon, but it would be 3-5 weeks for one of the gauges. 

Got the Wika 9768700 (0-100psi) & 9768637 (0-1500psi). All SS internals and casing, so should look nice on the nickel plated regulator I've got.


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## Glyphic (Feb 4, 2012)

@AguaScape How did you like the VWR Scientific regulator? I am thinking about adding CO2 and I was able to find one for around $40 used.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Glyphic said:


> @AguaScape How did you like the VWR Scientific regulator? I am thinking about adding CO2 and I was able to find one for around $40 used.


I love it. It is buttery smooth. I can easily adjust it to within one psi of my target and it stays rock solid. I do get a little float from my needle valve when it is set above 30 cc/min. But that has nothing to do with the regulator.


----------



## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

So.. I found this little gem of a regulator and I could not resist getting one. IKR? Just like me to buy another regulator.. It is an Air Liquide model 14 two stage with 2-50 psi output

I got it on the Bay for $55 plus $10 shipping. Search item number 254105757767. He still has 55 of them. I was considering seeing if I could get a quantity discount, but my rational side got control before I did something stupid. This is the sexiest little regulator I have ever seen at this quality level. The only problem is that you can't go any larger than 1-1/2" gauges on it without using 90s to angle them up and outward. It has a 1/4 NPT input and a 1/8 NPT output. 

Wanted to post up here in case anyone else would be interested in getting one for their own build.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

cute









https://industry.airliquide.co.za/single-stage-versus-two-stage-regulators


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Is it like this one that flowerfishs was selling a while back in this thread? 

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...egulators-sgt500-matheson-3810-paintball.html

man.. tempting 



*thinking*


----------



## ranitomeya (Jun 6, 2018)

I want that mini regulator but do I really need a 4th regulator? I only have 3 tanks...and only 2 use CO2.

Maybe I should sell my VWR? It looks ridiculous attached to a paintball tank anyway. Someone dissuade me please.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

ipkiss said:


> Is it like this one that flowerfishs was selling a while back in this thread?
> 
> https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...egulators-sgt500-matheson-3810-paintball.html
> 
> ...


Yes. That appears to be the same regulator.

Bump:


ranitomeya said:


> I want that mini regulator but do I really need a 4th regulator? I only have 3 tanks...and only 2 use CO2.
> 
> Maybe I should sell my VWR? It looks ridiculous attached to a paintball tank anyway. Someone dissuade me please.


Haha! I know exactly what you mean. I have three builds in progress plus my 4 in 1 build. And I only have 4 tanks. Three of them are not even fully operational yet... My regulator build obsession is affecting the progress on my other tanks.

Bump: BTW. My 4 in 1 is completed. I also have my CO2 cabinet now. Just waiting to fabricate an acrylic frame to display it before I post a photo.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

In the world of plantedtank, some people were meant to run awesome scapes but some people were meant to run awesome equipment ... 

I fall in neither, but you, my friend, definitely fall in the latter  




I say this for myself and for everyone else's money saving benefit.. 

no 8% ebay bucks .. 

repeat after me.. 

no 8% ebay bucks ..


----------



## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

ipkiss said:


> In the world of plantedtank, some people were meant to run awesome scapes but some people were meant to run awesome equipment ...
> 
> I fall in neither, but you, my friend, definitely fall in the latter
> 
> ...


Thank you for the kind words. I definitely fall into the latter. Mechanical constructs are my wheelhouse. I would like to transition that into awesome scapes as well. I have a good eye for art and I hope to eventually be able to create a true work of art on the scape end of things. 

Wait... What? 8% ebay bucks? Am I missing something? Probably do not want to know as it could involve more spending. I still want to know though.


----------



## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

AguaScape said:


> Thank you for the kind words. I definitely fall into the latter. Mechanical constructs are my wheelhouse. I would like to transition that into awesome scapes as well. I have a good eye for art and I hope to eventually be able to create a true work of art on the scape end of things.
> 
> Wait. What? 8% ebay bucks? Am I missing something? Probably do not want to know as it could involve more spending.


I'm sure you'll get there in due time. (The scapes I mean) your persistence showed in your quest to get the perfect shine on that manifold. 

as for the 8%, they happen now and then. I saw one go by on the 19th and lasted until the 20th. I always try to time my purchases during these times. Which is why I tried to use that excuse to tell me to walk away.


----------



## RazorUK (Jan 30, 2019)

AguaScape said:


> So.. I found this little gem of a regulator and I could not resist getting one. IKR? Just like me to buy another regulator.. It is an Air Liquide model 14 two stage with 2-50 psi output
> 
> I got it on the Bay for $55 plus $10 shipping. Search item number 254105757767. He still has 55 of them. I was considering seeing if I could get a quantity discount, but my rational side got control before I did something stupid. This is the sexiest little regulator I have ever seen at this quality level. The only problem is that you can't go any larger than 1-1/2" gauges on it without using 90s to angle them up and outward. It has a 1/4 NPT input and a 1/8 NPT output.
> 
> Wanted to post up here in case anyone else would be interested in getting one for their own build.


Looking forward to seeing your build on this one!


----------



## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

RazorUK said:


> Looking forward to seeing your build on this one!


Thanks! Already have it planned out. Just waiting on a couple small parts. It is going to be a really compact build with a Swagelok SS-SS4 metering valve.


----------



## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

*10%* ebay bucks until 26! Anyone else got that notice? But only through the app. how sneaky.


----------



## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Finished with my latest build. Pretty sleek IMO. All stainless steel except the reg and CGA-320 nut and nipple which are chrome plated brass. 
Air Liquide Model 14 two stage mini regulator, Clippard Mouse solenoid, and Swagelok/Nupro SS-SS4 metering valve with vernier handle. May upgrade the gauges.


----------



## RazorUK (Jan 30, 2019)

AguaScape said:


> Finished with my latest build. Pretty sleek IMO. All stainless steel except the reg which is chrome plated brass.
> Air Liquide Model 14 two stage mini regulator, Clippard Mouse solenoid, and Swagelok/Nupro SS-SS4 metering valve with vernier handle. May upgrade the gauges.


I may have just purchased one of these on ebay after seeing your build! > My cabinet under my 90 is very cramped so a nice compact setup like this will help!


----------



## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

RazorUK said:


> I may have just purchased one of these on ebay after seeing your build! > My cabinet under my 90 is very cramped so a nice compact setup like this will help!


You will really like it. I just swapped it out and have it running on my tank. The street 90's are pretty cheap. Search the Bay for 1/4" Female x 1/4" Male street Elbow Threaded Pipe Fitting Steel SS316 NPT 4PK. Less than $15 shipped for 4 of them. The expensive piece is the 1/8 male x 1/8 male 90. Hard to justify over $25 for a single fitting, but I have not found anything cheaper.


----------



## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

Very nice. How are the adjustments? 

I brain-locked on quick look earlier thinking that the angle for the output would be kind of a pain to get back to 90 degrees but seeing yours now I realize that you could simply rotate it to vertical. (duh lol)

Do the gauges easily rotate or are they fixed as normal? Every picture I see they're in a different orientation so wondering if they had them on some swivel-type fitting.


----------



## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Mike A. said:


> Very nice. How are the adjustments?
> 
> I brain-locked on quick look earlier thinking that the angle for the output would be kind of a pain to get back to 90 degrees but seeing yours now I realize that you could simply rotate it to vertical. (duh lol)
> 
> Do the gauges easily rotate or are they fixed as normal? Every picture I see they're in a different orientation so wondering if they had them on some swivel-type fitting.


The adjustment are great. The pressure is easily controlled and the needle valve is excellent. I found a source for the Nupro metering valves and they are not too expensive compared to the Swagelok ones. Same valve, different name. 

The gauges are not on a swivel (that would be nice though). I left the stock ones in the orientation that they came in. The can be removed and replaced in a different direction if you chose. I use anaerobic thread sealants, so there is a lot of leeway as to how tight you go. The same can be done by putting a few extra loops of teflon tape. Would need a narrow wrench though since the back of the gauge is pretty close to the surface of the regulator. No way to fit a Crescent Wrench in there. I will probably be switching to glycerine filled gauges made by Marshall. They are designed for Nitrous Oxide systems which run at similar pressure ranges to those we use. 0-1500 and 0-60.


----------



## KayakJimW (Aug 12, 2016)

AguaScape said:


> I got it on the Bay for $55 plus $10 shipping...


Must be selling too well, price has gone up 20%! Still a good deal at the $67.50 + $10 shipping it's at currently

Cool design, I like what you put together there


----------



## RazorUK (Jan 30, 2019)

I have a love hate relationship with this thread! I'm also now wanting to upgrade my regulators on my homebrew kegerator that I've been happy with for 5 years!


----------



## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

*Regulator Assembly display stand*

Well, I got my regulator assembly stand built today. I used 3/4" acrylic for the base and 1/2" acrylic for the supports. I flat sanded all the edges with a very slight roundover and flame polished it. I am really pleased with how it came out. 

Now I need to work on the electrical. Hoping to make the wiring discreet enough that it is not an eyesore. I will probably use Cat5 cable between the solenoids and the plug socket that will be tucked under the primary regulator.

I will be putting dosing reservoirs inside the cabinet so I will have enough room for any combination of dosing pumps and ph controllers for up to 4 tanks. I know I will have two sets here. Will probably have the other ones at their respective tank locations as they are farther away.

Sorry about the low quality pics, I am running low on photo space.


----------



## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

Nice job. :thumbsup:


----------



## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

How's the new setup working out? What are you using to connect the meters to tank? Push-to-connects?

BTW if anyone's looking at the small regulator above (or whatever else), there's a 15% off eBay coupon code today - PSAVETODAY Must be used from within the mobile app. I was waiting hoping that he'd drop the price back to where it was when you posted it but hasn't happened. Coupon made it close.


----------



## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Mike A. said:


> How's the new setup working out? What are you using to connect the meters to tank? Push-to-connects?
> 
> BTW if anyone's looking at the small regulator above (or whatever else), there's a 15% off eBay coupon code today - PSAVETODAY Must be used from within the mobile app. I was waiting hoping that he'd drop the price back to where it was when you posted it but hasn't happened. Coupon made it close.


I do not have it fully operational. Still have the electrical to complete. I do have push to connect fittings on the flow meters. I am using spacer clips to keep the grip on the lines tight.


----------



## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

Think I'm going to copy your 2X elbow approach for the mini regulator. That was a good idea. Puts everything close to the tank and that seems the most efficient way to get there. Could go vertical up or down but don't think I like that as much. 

Where'd you get the 320 nipple/nut? That's been the hardest thing for me to find at any kind of decent price putting some others together. Plenty of inexpensive brass out there but chrome/nickle/stainless are tougher to find.


----------



## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Mike A. said:


> Think I'm going to copy your 2X elbow approach for the mini regulator. That was a good idea. Puts everything close to the tank and that seems the most efficient way to get there. Could go vertical up or down but don't think I like that as much.
> 
> Where'd you get the 320 nipple/nut? That's been the hardest thing for me to find at any kind of decent price putting some others together. Plenty of inexpensive brass out there but chrome/nickle/stainless are tougher to find.


I got that one at Diyco2regulator.com. But I have started shopping this site for parts. If you search CGA-320 you will see all kinds of options. They also have a good selection of NPT fittings for pretty good prices.


----------



## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

AguaScape said:


> I got that one at Diyco2regulator.com. But I have started shopping this site for parts. If you search CGA-320 you will see all kinds of options. They also have a good selection of NPT fittings for pretty good prices.


Thanks. Pretty good selection of different NPT fittings.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Trying to go next level. Just my style right? I have become obsessed with electronic flow controllers like the sierra side track mass flow controller. These are available in 0-100 and 0-200 cc/min options. Looking for some feedback on what I have found. @jeffkrol I am looking forward to hearing from you in particular, because you have a great grasp of technical details. This is the link to the Sierra side track flow controller instruction manual. I did a quick read-over of the connections and it seems to me that a simple potentiometer is required to adjust settings as illustrated on page 2-7 and 2-11, and a +15v, -15v and a common ground are the power requirements. a flow meter could easily be used to confirm the output flow and I could adjust the potentiometer accordingly. 
Am I missing something here? Could it be that simple?


----------



## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

AguaScape said:


> Trying to go next level. Just my style right? I have become obsessed with electronic flow controllers like the sierra side track mass flow controller. These are available in 0-100 and 0-200 cc/min options. Looking for some feedback on what I have found. @jeffkrol I am looking forward to hearing from you in particular, because have a great grasp of technical details. This is the link to the Sierra side track flow controller instruction manual. I did a quick read-over of the connections and it seems to me that a simple potentiometer is required to adjust settings as illustrated on page 2-7 and 2-11, and a +15v, -15v and a common ground are the power requirements. a flow meter could easily be used to confirm the output flow and I could adjust the potentiometer accordingly.
> Am I missing something here? Could it be that simple?


Oh man you are too much! LOL Going deeper and deeper off the deep end. Hahahaha The voltage info and the potentiometer info is correct. Granted I didn't really read enough to determine how all of this worked, but sounds like you've got it. Now what are you going to hook this up to a Raspberry Pie or something? 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

That's funny. Had to stop myself from getting sucked into the mass flow devices when I was looking at flow meters. Just back away from the rabbit hole... lol


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

chayos00 said:


> Oh man you are too much! LOL Going deeper and deeper off the deep end. Hahahaha The voltage info and the potentiometer info is correct. Granted I didn't really read enough to determine how all of this worked, but sounds like you've got it. Now what are you going to hook this up to a Raspberry Pie or something?


Yeah, not ready to jump into Raspberry PI or Ardunos just yet. But if it is simple as soldering and adding a power supply and potentiometer, then I feel like I am up to that challenge. 



Mike A. said:


> That's funny. Had to stop myself from getting sucked into the mass flow devices when I was looking at flow meters. Just back away from the rabbit hole... lol


Pretty much the same message. If I can control it with a potentiometer then the rabbit hole is not that deep. Besides, rabbit holes are my thing. as long as they are not too deep....


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

Is this actually a flow controller or just a flow "gauge?" Wasn't really sure on the very little I read of it. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

AguaScape said:


> Pretty much the same message. If I can control it with a potentiometer then the rabbit hole is not that deep. Besides, rabbit holes are my thing. as long as they are not too deep....


This seemed like a pretty deep one from my brief peering down into the hole. I'm sure that you could figure it out and make it work. Whether the deep dive and trouble/expense is worth it or not and practical benefits are more the question.

Bump:


chayos00 said:


> Is this actually a flow controller or just a flow "gauge?" Wasn't really sure on the very little I read of it.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


It's a mix depending on exactly what and which you're looking at. You have controllers and transducers and external controls and up- and down-stream elements, etc. Some sold separately, some as more integrated units. Various combinations and bits and pieces in between. That's part of the complexity from my looking at it and hard to tell exactly what you're buying in some cases.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

https://www.amazon.com/Regulator-Power-Supply-Input-15-18V/dp/B00N4259QQ
And you could also attach a voltmeter to it.. w/ following specs:


> Standard output for all transducers is a 0-5 V DC signal, which
> directly corresponds to the 0 to
> 100% mass flow full scale range.
> Output signals are linear* and require a minimum load resistance
> of 1000 *


6 looks to be the 5V out tap for the pot..A and 10..
as you see you can apply your own 0-5V signal..
Those small dc/dc step down boards on evil bay come to mind..

Looks to be that easy..  Except the valve on/off thing needs to be sorted out:


> Caution: Never leave the controller with no gas supply while supplying a
> setpoint. The valve will open to its maximum position and eventually overheat causing possible damage to the control circuit. If it
> is desired to interrupt the gas flow for an extended period, consider utilizing the
> “Valve-Off” circuit.


The valve purge thingy is kind of confusing and some notes worth noting..


> NOTE: On controllers purchased or repaired after
> 2002, pin 3 (valve return) must have its own
> dedicated ground wire back to the power
> supply in order to operate the valve



Devil is in the details..


----------



## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

chayos00 said:


> Is this actually a flow controller or just a flow "gauge?" Wasn't really sure on the very little I read of it.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Some of them are described as mass flow meters and some as mass flow controllers. It appears the difference is the cylinder on the right side that controls the flow. There is another line called Top Track that have integrated display and control buttons, but those are a lot more expensive. Those are also available in meter and controller versions.


----------



## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

I've always thought the mass flow controllers are the only way to accurately know how much CO2 is being used. The only hold back has been the cost of high quality units that come with a display, but more have been showing up on eb** for reasonable pricing. I'm just waiting for someone to jump down the rabbit hole and let us know what they find!


----------



## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Ken Keating1 said:


> I've always thought the mass flow controllers are the only way to accurately know how much CO2 is being used. The only hold back has been the cost of high quality units that come with a display, but more have been showing up on eb** for reasonable pricing. I'm just waiting for someone to jump down the rabbit hole and let us know what they find!


I'm sticking my head in the hole to see exactly how deep it is. I managed to get a 0-200 ml/min controller for under $40 shipped. I figure it is worth that price just to see if it can work for our purposes. No guarantees, but I am going to play with it a bit and see how it goes.


----------



## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

Got the Air Liquide regulator that you'd posted and finally got things put together last week. Really nice little unit. I like it a lot. Just about perfect for aquarium use I think. Kinda wish that I'd gone with that from the start vs the other huge ones that I have. 

Thanks! That was a good find.


----------



## NightHedgie (Mar 17, 2017)

AguaScape said:


> So.. I found this little gem of a regulator and I could not resist getting one. IKR? Just like me to buy another regulator.. It is an Air Liquide model 14 two stage with 2-50 psi output
> 
> I got it on the Bay for $55 plus $10 shipping. Search item number 254105757767. He still has 55 of them. I was considering seeing if I could get a quantity discount, but my rational side got control before I did something stupid. This is the sexiest little regulator I have ever seen at this quality level. The only problem is that you can't go any larger than 1-1/2" gauges on it without using 90s to angle them up and outward. It has a 1/4 NPT input and a 1/8 NPT output.
> 
> Wanted to post up here in case anyone else would be interested in getting one for their own build.


Couldn't find it on bay, tried to search 254105757767, got zero results...... Am I missing something?  thanks


----------



## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

NightHedgie said:


> Couldn't find it on bay, tried to search 254105757767, got zero results...... Am I missing something?  thanks


Search these words Miniature Two Stage Regulator High Purity Gas. New Surplus $525 List Price! It will get you there. The price is $67.50 now. Still a really good value.


----------



## NightHedgie (Mar 17, 2017)

AguaScape said:


> Search these words Miniature Two Stage Regulator High Purity Gas. New Surplus $525 List Price! It will get you there. The price is $67.50 now. Still a really good value.


tried to search. Could be possibly I'm not from US. I've tried to search the US e bay. found lots of Harris an Matterson.... no Minature unit :frown2:


----------



## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

NightHedgie said:


> tried to search. Could be possibly I'm not from US. I've tried to search the US e bay. found lots of Harris an Matterson.... no Minature unit :frown2:


It is possible that he has it set up for domestic shipping only... Some items are hard to ship overseas because of customs regulations


----------



## nisha (Jan 23, 2019)

Hi,
I'm wondering if I could ask you gents for help. I purchased the Ebay regulator posted by AguaScape, and received it. It's lovely looking. I'd like to make a paintball setup, for space reasons, and would like to it to stand up. I haven't gotten around to sourcing the rest of the build yet.

I just came back from a trip and was sad to see my plants wilted from lack of CO2 - I'd been using a ghetto-rigged mini bike tire inflator with disposable CO2 cartridges, turning it on each evening for a few hours when I came home from work, and my plants were doing well! But it's too finicky to ask someone to do this for me while I'm away if they are fish-sitting. In any case, this has prompted me to get started on the regulator.

I'm not overly technically minded, but have read enough from you guys to know the parts like the solenoid and NV -55-18 in the kit from DIYCO2regulator would be good for this job. I have no interest in integrating a bubble counter. (I do think an analog flow meter would be cool and useful!)
The only thing is I want to keep everything vertical as much as possible, and nice and tightly parallel with the regulator mounted vertically on the paintball tank - does that make sense? I don't want it to topple.

I'd buy the post-body kit, and a few additional pieces if that's recommended, but otherwise should I just buy the solenoid and valve? 

But could anyone suggest some generic hardware dimensions that I could use to make a nice vertically oriented build? Complicating this is that not all sellers on Ebay will ship to canada, but I might be able to find similar hardware in Canada (Toronto) locally.

Thanks so much in advance for your input!


----------



## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

nisha said:


> Hi,
> I'm wondering if I could ask you gents for help. I purchased the Ebay regulator posted by AguaScape, and received it. It's lovely looking. I'd like to make a paintball setup, for space reasons, and would like to it to stand up. I haven't gotten around to sourcing the rest of the build yet.
> 
> I just came back from a trip and was sad to see my plants wilted from lack of CO2 - I'd been using a ghetto-rigged mini bike tire inflator with disposable CO2 cartridges, turning it on each evening for a few hours when I came home from work, and my plants were doing well! But it's too finicky to ask someone to do this for me while I'm away if they are fish-sitting. In any case, this has prompted me to get started on the regulator.
> ...


That reg is pretty much ideal for a vertical setup. You would need an adapter for paintball fitting to a 1/4 NPT male. From there you would probably want a 1/4 npt male 90 to turn back downwards to your solenoid and metering valve. Pretty much identical to the build I posted except the bottle would feed directly into the end of the reg instead of doing the double 90 turn back from a horizontal output.


----------



## RazorUK (Jan 30, 2019)

AguaScape said:


> The adjustment are great. The pressure is easily controlled and the needle valve is excellent. I found a source for the Nupro metering valves and they are not too expensive compared to the Swagelok ones. Same valve, different name.


Do you mind sharing the source?


----------



## nisha (Jan 23, 2019)

AguaScape said:


> That reg is pretty much ideal for a vertical setup. You would need an adapter for paintball fitting to a 1/4 NPT male. From there you would probably want a 1/4 npt male 90 to turn back downwards to your solenoid and metering valve. Pretty much identical to the build I posted except the bottle would feed directly into the end of the reg instead of doing the double 90 turn back from a horizontal output.


Hi,
Sorry for late reply, I didn't see the notification. Thanks for the guidance - I lost a bit of interest out of frustration, but excited again to try to build it!

Best,
Nisha


----------



## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

It took me a while to discover this thread, most of the co2 system build threads were in the equipment section.




AguaScape said:


> Well, I got my regulator assembly stand built today. I used 3/4" acrylic for the base and 1/2" acrylic for the supports. I flat sanded all the edges with a very slight roundover and flame polished it. I am really pleased with how it came out.
> 
> Now I need to work on the electrical. Hoping to make the wiring discreet enough that it is not an eyesore. I will probably use Cat5 cable between the solenoids and the plug socket that will be tucked under the primary regulator.
> 
> ...


nice build, good looking multiple output system.
flow meter as measuring device, your option is limited. Instead of dywer, try brooks instrument sho-rate flow meter, you are looking for the one with a number on the flow adjust valve cap, best number is "1", any number bigger than 3 or mark "M" "H", or "L" are not the one you need, so the only options are "1", "2", or "3".




AguaScape said:


> Trying to go next level. Just my style right? I have become obsessed with electronic flow controllers like the sierra side track mass flow controller. These are available in 0-100 and 0-200 cc/min options. Looking for some feedback on what I have found. @jeffkrol I am looking forward to hearing from you in particular, because you have a great grasp of technical details. This is the link to the Sierra side track flow controller instruction manual. I did a quick read-over of the connections and it seems to me that a simple potentiometer is required to adjust settings as illustrated on page 2-7 and 2-11, and a +15v, -15v and a common ground are the power requirements. a flow meter could easily be used to confirm the output flow and I could adjust the potentiometer accordingly.
> Am I missing something here? Could it be that simple?


you don't need a mass flow controller to control the flow rate, because I think you still need a digital input unit to connect to the controller, and when you start looking for a digital input/control unit, I think you will back off from the idea....
But you are correct we can use a mass flow controller as a bubble counter(metering device), some controller are metering only, with digital display build in. I own two of them since 2012, bought them around $50 each, new, one aalborg 0-50 sccm, another is omega, I think it is 0-200 sccm. I tried them in 2014, both work really good but not for CO2, so the flow rate is a reference but does not represent the exact figure. :grin2:



I need to update my metering valve selection thread, had all the info ready about more suitable metering valves and solenoids, but failed to do so in 2014 before I took a long break from PT.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

when you see my post, better get the brooks sho-rate fast or the affordable ones will disappear from evilbay, because I am afraid my fans still active, lol.

my posts was closely monitored by some ppl back in 2013-2014, some of the parts disappeared from evilbay before I had the chances to try them myself because I post the info out there.

not sure who start DIYCO2REGULATOR, hopefully it is one of the builders that I knew, the parts and combo are all the same as what I offered in sale thread back in 2013-2014..


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## E.TNBuckeye (Mar 3, 2018)

After reading this thread a couple of weeks ago, I picked up this used Harris HP702 for $40. I am about to put together my first real planted tank w/co2 and when I saw this I figured it was a great deal. I'm gonna have a buch of questions soon. I hope this forum will be patient and helpful. At least while trying to learn about quality regulators I dug up an old thread instead of starting a new one, amirite?


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## KayakJimW (Aug 12, 2016)

E.TNBuckeye said:


> After reading this thread a couple of weeks ago, I picked up this used Harris HP702 for $40. I am about to put together my first real planted tank w/co2 and when I saw this I figured it was a great deal. I'm gonna have a buch of questions soon. I hope this forum will be patient and helpful. *At least while trying to learn about quality regulators I dug up an old thread instead of starting a new one, amirite?*


This is awesome, I love seeing regulator builds. Digging into old threads is a great way to answer questions and learn stuff, but going forward I think it would be good to start a build thread specific to you and your regulator. That way I won't have to skip over so much stuff I've already seen, haha! Links to threads that inspired you would keep all that good info in your new thread too, so that's an option. I'd personally just like to see a fresh thread about your journey into regulator building. Good luck!


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

how to build and what to use, search equipment section.

oldpunk has a build thread instruction, check sticky in equipment section.


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## E.TNBuckeye (Mar 3, 2018)

Now that I'm about to start building this regulator, I noticed there's a sticker on it that says "Non-corrosive gases only." It's a Harris GP702-125-346-A. I can't find much about this rig. It appears to be a chrome plated regulator with a stainless steel diaphragm. will this work for my application?

TIA


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## RLee (Sep 21, 2008)

E.TNBuckeye said:


> Now that I'm about to start building this regulator, I noticed there's a sticker on it that says "Non-corrosive gases only." It's a Harris GP702-125-346-A. I can't find much about this rig. It appears to be a chrome plated regulator with a stainless steel diaphragm. will this work for my application?
> 
> TIA


Yes


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

E.TNBuckeye said:


> Now that I'm about to start building this regulator, I noticed there's a sticker on it that says "Non-corrosive gases only." It's a Harris GP702-125-346-A. I can't find much about this rig. It appears to be a chrome plated regulator with a stainless steel diaphragm. will this work for my application?
> 
> TIA



Should be 125 max output pressure so good.. Has an air CGA (346), no issue since you need to change it anyways normally. Few can be found w/ a CO2 CGA.


GP prob stands for general purpose..
CO2 is generally non-corrosive.
"A" just means a needle valve is attached.
702 model is 2 stage.


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## E.TNBuckeye (Mar 3, 2018)

@RLee & @jeffkrol,

Thanks for your replies. Now that we've established I have no idea what I'm doing, can someone tell me the parts I need to finish this thing, maybe even links?

TIA


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## RLee (Sep 21, 2008)

E.TNBuckeye said:


> @*RLee* & @*jeffkrol*,
> 
> Thanks for your replies. Now that we've established I have no idea what I'm doing, can someone tell me the parts I need to finish this thing, maybe even links?
> 
> TIA


You need a CGA-320 nut & nipple, check valve, bubble counter or flow meter and a post body kit. This site has everything except bubble counter or flow meter. https://www.diyco2regulator.com/cga-320-nut-nipple. You can find all this stuff on ebay or elsewhere if you want to hunt.
This thread has some good info, check the link inside for testing the regulator. https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...-newbie-building-regulator-please-advise.html


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

For a new person, one of the mean points is that it seems to complex, so to get it down to easier, I like to look at each item as what we are speaking is not building a reg but getting a set of parts together. 
REg needs to connect to the CO2 tank so a CO2 specific nipple (pipe?) is CGA 320 and also need a specific nut to hold it one the tank. A small plastic/nylon washer is often placed here to seal it. 
The reg body cuts the pressure down to workable and hands the gas along to where we often place a solenoid. A solenoid is an electrically operated valve and we can use it on a timer to turn gas on/off. A needle valve is often the next part as it lets us adjust the flow of the gas to get very tiny amounts we use. A bubble counter is one way to have a visible reference of how much we change things as we adjust. Depending on size of tank and lots of smaller details, we may get to a point where bubbles are going past too fast to count and another method is the flowmeter, which lets the gas flow blow a tiny ball up to give us a number for the flow. One or the other is needed just to see what we do when we adjust things. Tubing of course but at the end we need some way to mix the gas into the water and that is almost another whole subject as it can be a ceramic disk, aDIY form of some sort or a reactor like a Cerg's or Grigg's style. 
Short rundown to a very complicated issue as there are dozens/ hundreds of variables to consider. Point to know is that there is not one solid answer for all to use and it has to be studied a bit to sort but easier to think of parts rather than the whole ballgame. 
Full blown second section of the hobby is the mechanical parts we want!


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## E.TNBuckeye (Mar 3, 2018)

@RLee & @ jeffkrol,

I tried to contact the people @DIYregulator.com to see if they would just tell me which pieces/package to buy. I haven't heard back from them so I decided to go to Holston Gas today to see if I could just buy the bits there and have them assemble. While there they said my regulator will "freez" and that co2 is corrosive due to being "wet." The being a corrosive gas goes against the research I've done. From what I understand it's mildly corrosive. Will this Harris GP702-125-346-A work, or should I start from scratch?

TIA


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## RLee (Sep 21, 2008)

E.TNBuckeye said:


> @*RLee* & @ jeffkrol,
> 
> I tried to contact the people @DIYregulator.com to see if they would just tell me which pieces/package to buy. I haven't heard back from them so I decided to go to Holston Gas today to see if I could just buy the bits there and have them assemble. While there they said my regulator will "freez" and that co2 is corrosive due to being "wet." The being a corrosive gas goes against the research I've done. From what I understand it's mildly corrosive. Will this Harris GP702-125-346-A work, or should I start from scratch?
> 
> TIA



No it should not freeze and no it is not corrosive enough to effect anything. The GP uses neoprene diaphragms which Harris says should not be used with CO2. Being a used regulator there is a chance it is damaged or malfunctioned in some way but that would be the only thing that would keep you from using it. To properly test its function you must install a CGA-320 nut/nipple so you can connect it to the co2 bottle. If you search youtube there are several people that will walk you through the testing of the regulator.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

E.TNBuckeye said:


> @RLee & @ jeffkrol,
> 
> I tried to contact the people @DIYregulator.com to see if they would just tell me which pieces/package to buy. I haven't heard back from them so I decided to go to Holston Gas today to see if I could just buy the bits there and have them assemble. While there they said my regulator will "freez" and that co2 is corrosive due to being "wet." The being a corrosive gas goes against the research I've done. From what I understand it's mildly corrosive. Will this Harris GP702-125-346-A work, or should I start from scratch?
> 
> TIA


Whoever tell you that "freez", or "corrosive", only give you the excuses.
For regulators dealing with "freez" situation are for real fast flow of co2 application. The regulator is either the harris model 3 regulator type with heatsink body(for cold dissipation), or with a build in heater(a power cable run from the back of the reg). You don't see these types of co2 regulators often and we only pump co2 in sccm unit, run at least half a year to years on a co2 tank instead of emptying the co2 tank in hours.
Wet co2 and corrosive is another none sense, occasionally there might be a little moisture in the co2 tank but it doesn't cause trouble, and almost all commercially available co2 regulators are brass, if wet co2 and "corrosive" is the issue all brass regulators are needed to be outlawed. 
If a co2 regulator internally water logged for a long period of time, there might be trouble, but it is the same to all co2 regs.


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