# diy led lighting problem with red plant



## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

How far from light to sub ?
Don't know where one is, so just doing it from memory but 420nm-450nm is a plant spectrum and 620-660nm is good also. The Cyan is for the appearance that you see.
The charts which tell the spectrum which plants use("don't know where one is") don't
show Cyan as being at/in a peak which indicates the plant use parts of the spectrum.
But for your viewing I would use the Cyan in the two 3K in that front row.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Raymond S. said:


> How far from light to sub ?
> Don't know where one is, so just doing it from memory but 420nm-450nm is a plant spectrum and 620-660nm is good also. The Cyan is for the appearance that you see.
> The charts which tell the spectrum which plants use("don't know where one is") don't
> show Cyan as being at/in a peak which indicates the plant use parts of the spectrum.
> But for your viewing I would use the Cyan in the two 3K in that front row.


Not much to do w/ a red problem but:


> When a photon strikes a pigment molecule, its energy is passed from pigment molecule to pigment molecule until it reaches the reaction center.
> The various pigments each absorb light of a different wavelength (shown here), and they send this energy to a specialized chlorophyll molecule at the center of the photosystem (the reaction center). The chlorophyll molecules of photosystem I and photosystem II are different but both play an important role in the electron transport chains of photosynthesis.


https://wikispaces.psu.edu/download...rsion=1&modificationDate=1269875792000&api=v2








Cyan is in the carotenoid absorption band...

https://wikispaces.psu.edu/display/Bio110nk/Energy+IV+-+Photosynthesis+(Light+Reactions)
As to red.. This is the kind of color I've pushed out of some red plants w/ LED's much like yours:








Red is more than "just light"...
to be honest, I've gotten more pigment out of higher K lighting (high royal blue) than lower K.
bottom of a 40B.. 









Point is I'm not seeing any spectrum deficiency.. Possibly intensity...


Might help by knowing which plants you are having a problem with.. Some just fail due to tank conditions (nutrients, CO2 pH ect.) or even competition..

Having red plants go green is different than having red plants die..

the blue I use is royal blue, the red 660nm red.. 6500k whites and 3500k whites, and cyan

Here is naturally red sword:









BTW: the sword ,red myro(behind the hygro) and that pink/red leaved thing (Rotala macranda) are all extinct..  due to one thing or another.. mostly as my tank aged it went from slightly alkaline to slightly acidic. In part due to CO2 addition..
Anyway I'm pretty sure it wasn't light because at one point or another all thrived like crazy and lasted many months.. then boom, dead. The sword melted and tried to recover 3 times b4 calling it quits..That one I blamed on CO2 introduction.;
POINT is I wouldn't look at light first..

Depending on how you have your channels configured, as a test, I'd run the 10k's and blue at full for a short "noon" period..decreasing the red/ warm whites...Blue light does seem to stimulate anthrocyanin production (red pigment). Adding purple/UV may help but not my favorite color.."REAL" UV would as plants reacted to the damaging wavelengths w/ pigment production.

for inspiration:
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?278881-Red-plants-and-LED-s/page4

BTW: You can "color" plants by nitrogen starvation.. Drops chlorophyll production down a lot (green pigment), but it is not very good for the plants.. A green plant is a happy plant.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

And that is a better chart than I was looking for as it has the Carotenoids listed
and the one I was looking for didn't.
Now I see that the Cyan is inside of the Carotinoid use aria, but towards the very end/low part of it. Even so it will be of some use to the plants instead of just being for color quality.
Also I asked for the depth of the tank because from my limited exp, the amount of bulbs
times the Watts of them suggest to me that it's more than adequate light.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Raymond S. said:


> And that is a better chart than I was looking for as it has the Carotenoids listed
> and the one I was looking for didn't.
> Now I see that the Cyan is inside of the Carotinoid use area, but towards the very end/low part of it. Even so it will be of some use to the plants instead of just being for color quality.


Depends a bit on the exact cyan peak.. I believe it is anywhere from 485 to 515-ish..




























> Spectrographic analysis of the cyan Luxeon V LED in this flashlight; spectrometer's response narrowed to a band between 450nm and 550nm to help pinpoint peak wavelength


http://ledmuseum.candlepower.us/skunk1.htm


I suppose using a little statistical analysis I coud determine what proportion of energy is between what wavelengths.. Seems like too much work though.. 
none of this has any bearing on red.. Yellow maybe.. 
you can browse the confusion on red here:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=184629&page=6

IN the never ending pursuit of information:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1751-1097.1999.tb01944.x/epdf
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200209/msg00387.html
https://books.google.com/books?id=Q...Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=anthocyanins kirk&f=false
Scroll to top.. See first dozen pages


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

8000K bulb(s) will make red plant's,fishes, appear more red to your/my eyes.
To truly get more red from the plant,CO2 is needed. IMHO


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

I am an old dinosaur, am blissfully ignorant as to how to provide link but for some informative reading, try googling..

DIY LED full spectrum design www.ukaps.org
Spectrum doesn't matter does it www.ukaps.org
Both threads were interesting reading provided by some VERY knowledgeable hobbyist's.
Must admit that much of it was well above my pay grade.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Forgot some pigments..








all the carotenoid types have a fair absorption around 500nm...

The main point is you have genetics (naturally red), stress factors (high visible light, high UV) , nutrient factors (low N, low phosphorus), and probably a few more like pH, disease ect. that all affect pigment production..


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## Ultimbow (Mar 19, 2009)

The light is at 22 inch from substrate. I have pressure c02 and using pps system for ferts. i used to have an icecap vho with 2x aquasun tube on my tank and everything worked fine the balast died after 8 years and decide to go diy led and since then all my red plant slowly died and some went green. I had rotala macranda (died) and some luigia that went green.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Not trying to be a smart butt and such...but I wish all those people who say the Actinic is ONLY for salt water could look at the last chart in this thread on post # 8.

Ultimbow: When you did have those other lights did you use those same ferts ?
And did they cause any algae problems ?


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## Ultimbow (Mar 19, 2009)

I dint change anything i been o n t5 for 2 month or so that i borrowed from a friend and everyting was going smooth andd when i put led i had algea problem for a few week then everything whent back to normal after i cut on intensity and the red plant started to die not to long after. I was thinking about actinic too but they are a lot more expensive then the other 3w and not shur if it would help.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Raymond S. said:


> Not trying to be a smart butt and such...but I wish all those people who say the Actinic is ONLY for salt water could look at the last chart in this thread on post # 8.
> 
> Ultimbow: When you did have those other lights did you use those same ferts ?
> And did they cause any algae problems ?


My plants grew fine while I played w/ this lighting.. EXCEPT if you look at the Hygrophylla on the right side.. almost ZERO inter-node growth. Basically formed a "tuft"..Certainly not a recommended color and it is not "true " actinic light but close enough.
Plants and you need a more balanced spectrum.
Would they have survived long term?? Growth was fast and heavy, just not up.. 
circumstantial evidence at best though. AND I did get an algae problem eventually, but at the time, no CO2 ect.. 










Bump:


Ultimbow said:


> I dint change anything i been o n t5 for 2 month or so that i borrowed from a friend and everyting was going smooth and when i put led i had algae problem for a few week then everything went back to normal after i cut on intensity and the red plant started to die not to long after. I was thinking about actinic too but they are a lot more expensive then the other 3w and not sure if it would help.


Besides disrupting your light environment multiple times, and having algae "attack".. 
and no mention of CO2 or ferts, seems more like survival of the fittest, w/ the red types losing more than anything light related.
As to red plants turning green as you decrease light levels, not unexpected I guess.


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## Ultimbow (Mar 19, 2009)

I do use co2 and fert 


Ultimbow said:


> The light is at 22 inch from substrate. I have pressure c02 and using pps system for ferts. i used to have an icecap vho with 2x aquasun tube on my tank and everything worked fine the balast died after 8 years and decide to go diy led and since then all my red plant slowly died and some went green. I had rotala macranda (died) and some luigia that went green.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Ultimbow said:


> I do use co2 and fert


Since I too wiped out my R. macrada, I certainly can sympathise..
That said though and this "cultivation guide", except light, I probably broke every "rule"



> Unlike the majority of _Rotala_, it is rather demanding in its requirements. It is best suited to aquariums with high-intensity lighting and will not tolerate shading. Individual stems should be planted far enough apart to ensure that lower regions get adequate light. If not, lower portions of the primary stem can waste away, leaving the top to break free. Carbon dioxide supplementation is not strictly required, but if used it will greatly help to create the overall environment necessary to keep this species.
> Despite its demanding nature, once established _Rotala macrandra_ can grow rather quickly. In ideal conditions growth can be up to 3 or 4 inches per week. Proper nutrient levels are important to keep it in top form. An intense deep-red coloration is often achieved by keeping phosphate levels relatively high (1.5 to 2.0 ppm) while keeping nitrates on the low side (10 ppm or less). Higher nitrate levels will result in light orange growth. Stunting of the growing tips often indicates a lack of micronutrients. Insufficient nitrate levels can also mimic insufficient light, causing lower portions of the plant to waste away.


 http://www.tfhmagazine.com/details/plant-of-the-month/rotala-macrandra.htm


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## Ultimbow (Mar 19, 2009)

So i put up the red and blue led yesterday and to my surprise today my plant where making bubble guess they where not getting the proper light will see how it goes long term


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## dmachado (May 26, 2010)

Hello, I am on to my 10000k led setup lacking red spectrum and causing plants to almost no growth when comparing to T5 6000k + 8000k on my previous setup (with a peak in red), and found this thread.

Any updates on your tank's development after installing the red leds?

Regards.


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

Yeah,

I have some Far red LEDs and I wonder if they're worth putting on my DIY fixture with warm and cool white LEDs

I was reading about the benefit they have on flowering crops however not sure if they'll do any good in the planted tanks

This video had pretty good information though


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

jeffkrol said:


> Since I too wiped out my R. macrada, I certainly can sympathise..
> That said though and this "cultivation guide", except light, I probably broke every "rule"
> 
> 
> Rotala macrandra | Details | Plant of the Month | TFH Magazine®





I was growing R. Macradra under mercury vapor HID phosphored outer envelope lamps in my 30 and 50 talls back in '92~94. Since the CRI and spectrum of these weren't great it was odd that I had such good luck with Macrandra.


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

monkeyruler90 said:


> Yeah,
> 
> I have some Far red LEDs and I wonder if they're worth putting on my DIY fixture with warm and cool white LEDs
> 
> ...



The pinkish purple dual ("full") spectrum plant light LEDs have a far red spike in their spectrum along with their deep blue spike.


Hot-rodding a Nicrew Planted Tank LED


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