# Are Amano's products (ADA) worth the money?



## gnatster (Mar 12, 2004)

I don't think such a poll is viable at this time. The products are new to us in the US/Canada, where most people voting here are based and there is no body of work to go by. Also lumping all the products into one catchall is a falicy. We have been told by the importer that certain products are not intended for this market.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

You're making a good point gnatster. But there sure are some mighty strong opinions out there at the moment. Many people seem to feel that they have enough info to make blanket statements right now.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with your point. I'm just pointing out that lots of people seem to have some very strong opinions right now.

Hear is a place they can post them, rather than pulling threads off topic every time an ADA product is mentioned.


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## duck (Apr 22, 2004)

> pulling threads off topic every time an ADA product is mentioned.


I can see that happening here plus a lock down aswell


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## gnatster (Mar 12, 2004)

scolley said:


> You're making a good point gnatster. But there sure are some mighty strong opinions out there at the moment. Many people seem to feel that they have enough info to make blanket statements right now.
> 
> I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with your point. I'm just pointing out that lots of people seem to have some very strong opinions right now.
> 
> Hear is a place they can post them, rather than pulling threads off topic every time an ADA product is mentioned.


Thanks. You are correct, there are many strong opinions on this matter, and I choose Depends. I should qualify that choice, as should others when making their choice otherwise we have no no understanding of why the results look as they do. 

I chose Depends due to various factors. 

1. It depends on the product. While I think the substrate system is of great value at this point from the conversations I've had with knowledgeable people I also take at face value the point the distributors make on the filter system.

2. Depends on the persons ultimate goal. Are they looking for a "turnkey" setup where you add water and plants and it works? Or are you a DIY kind of person with a deep need to know how many mg of KNO3 the tank needs on a daily basis. 

3. Depends on if you are one that can accept the sales and marketing pitch at face value or if you must question and seek scientific proof. 

That in part is my reasoning.

I still contend that this poll is not worth the electrons it's using, no offense scolly, unless the respondents offer up their reasoning. This forum cuts across many demographics. Case in point, income level. A person of significant income may think that yes it well worth the money as setting up a 100% ADA tank is less then spent on dinner last night. While another scraping from paycheck to paycheck, eating ramen noodles, might be aghast the price of fancy imported dirt. Unless the person making the choice in the poll qualifies the choice I think we end up with a meaningless chart. 

But opinions are like ...


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

gnatster said:


> While another scraping from paycheck to paycheck, eating ramen noodles, might be aghast the price of fancy imported dirt. Unless the person making the choice in the poll qualifies the choice I think we end up with a meaningless chart.
> 
> But opinions are like ...



Still doing that...so I have to vote not worth it!!  Even if I had a million dollars I still wouldn't buy forceps that cost $100!!!


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## Tino (Jan 9, 2005)

Voted "Depends".
I think it's terrific to have it as one of the options available out there, value regardless. Still the newess of the matter will not attribute to the sensible polemic at this point IMO.

PS. I'v bought some minor ADA things, have still to try them out..


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

I think it's highly subjective to a person's disposable income and application. Take for instance their soil. All the ferts are in there in the substrate and grows plants like weed. The downside? Gets depleted within a couple of years. By then you either have to dose the water column or redo the substrate. You can easily grow plants and sell them off to easily make a profit over the cost of setup if that's the route you're interested in.

For me, I'm in it for the long run and don't feel like spending the extra money for something that I'm already doing (ferts in the water column). While the plants don't grow as fast, I'm happy with the results that I'm currently getting.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Clarification*

I'm wondering if what I though was implied should have been more clear...

When we are talking about not a single product, but rather many products, any question of value will depend on which product, or set of products (soil, lighting, tanks, CO2, equiptment... ) we are talking about.

So, while you are free to answer as you see fit, my question was meant to be general...

"Are ADA products, generally speaking, worth the money?"​

As to it depending on the amount of money you have at your disposal, I assumed that to be self-evident too. I was looking for your assessment of value, based on your criteria. And if that criteria is how much money you do, or do not, have in your pocket - that's a great basis for an answer. But please answer for yourself, not for people in general.

_Every _ purchase decision depends on how much money you have. This is no different.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Too be honest, I also don't see the point of this poll, this thread or this debate at all. Here is why.

Firstly, the products are so very new to our market that very, very few people have had any practical experience with them. Without the practical experience, no one can truly and honestly comment on the performance/value of the product. Any comments without experience would be pure conjecture and be opinion without any thing to really back it up. I don't mind reading about peoples opinions on a product or service based on experiences, but I am not interested in a person's "gut reaction" to a topic like this. I have to be honest with everyone on this very topic. I am sick to death of people disparaging these products not based on first hand experience, performance or value, but solely based on price. It is ignorant. It is old. I have never commented on the _value_ of any piece of Eheim, Rena, Tetra, Milwaukee, AZOO or any other manufacturer's equipment without first hand experience, and I will not do so about ADA equipment. 



scolley said:


> Many people seem to feel that they have enough info to make blanket statements right now.


Blanket statements are just that, blanket statements. They are usually overly inclusive, draw conclusions and are often prejudiced. I don't put much salt into a blanket statement, be it about ADA products, race relations or religion. Blanket statements are usually not worth the wool (or polyester) they are woven from.

Secondly, there is the issue of price relevancy. What might be affordable to one is not going to be affordable to another. The topic becomes a subtle debate on what one person can afford versus what another can afford. Opinions will be draw on that economic condition alone, as opposed to performance/value. 

Don't consider my statements part of the discussion or "healthy debate" of this topic. Consider my comments as disgust for the topic in general. I am sorry, Steve, and I mean you and everyone on the board no ill will or disrespect, but I just can't stomach this very discussion anymore. It should be a debate based on practical experience in relation to cost of the product to determine value first hand, as opposed to the the value of the product being determined by cost alone, which it is.

This whole thing is a silly exercise in futility, IMHO.

Mike


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Momo - your reaction is a case in point. People do appear to have strong feelings on this topic. If you don't believe me, read your own post.

My intentions were to provide an appropriate place to discuss a hotly debated topic, and get it out of other threads.

But moderation is your job, and one you do well IMO. So if you think this is harmful, not useful... not of value for whatever reason, then by all means shut it down.

Am not trying cause trouble, but alleviate it. Do as you see fit. I will, as always, respect and appreciate your decision.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

My reaction is not a "case in point", Steve. My reaction is not _on _ topic, it is _about_ the topic. 

I don't see this topic as alleviating a problem, I do see it as possibly creating one, though.

Just because I don't see value in this discussion doesn't mean others don't. I am allowed an opinion, and will voice it now and then. A moderator's opinions are not the be all end all. There is plenty of stuff the other moderators and I would love to shut down, but we let things go. It is our board. You guys can talk about what you want as long as it is within reason, not offensive, disparaging or obscene.

I'll let it stand, Steve. We'll let you moderate the thread for a while. roud: We'll let you bring it back on topic when it gets off, and soothe the bruised egos that may result!  :hihi: If you need a hand, you know who to call!  

Mike


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks Mike that's a kind response. I guess when reading a mod's post it's tought to separate the job from the personal opion.

That's OK. To tell you the truth, this is not a topic I care a hill of beans about. I have my own opinion on this matter, and it's good enough for me.

I do care about people getting this silly debate out of threads where it does not belong though.

While I appreaciate the offer to allow me to do a bit of moderation on the topic, (I do!) but my work life makes my participation here spotty - sometimes high, sometimes low. So if I need to keep an eye on this, it would be better to shut it down IMO. I can't be counted on to have the time.

As always, happy to follow your lead on this point. roud:

Oh yeah - I'm going on vacation tomorrow for about a week, so I can't watch this at all! (Just what you need right? Someone to put a pot on the stove, and then walk away to let it boil over.)


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## fishfry (May 9, 2004)

I also don't see the viability of the poll since a lot of people voting will have never used ADA products before. I also don't get why ADA products need to be the target of such criticism and skepticism at every turn, why can't it just be accepted for what it is...another product line of aquarium plants...and for that I am happy because options are good. Given that, the majority of ADA products I would never spend my money on no matter how much money I have, but there are some that I really like.


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

What about the threads about Reagent ACS chemicals as opposed to agricultural grade? It seems everyone (even mods) very strongly stated that not only was it a waste of money, but viewed it as an attack against Greg Watson and Tom Barr, and locked the posts... but here they are saying "Don't knock it unless you've tried it," and I'm sure no one tried the Reagent ACS chemicals.

Just a little confused over what causes these strong, passionate reactions in people. I'm only guessing it's money, but in my eyes, it's the same issue... more money for Amano equipment, more money for purer chemicals, yet the same people have opposite reactions on each subject.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> threads about Reagent ACS chemicals


That was someone trolling. Plain and simple. 

Maven, Dr. Quinn or whoever else the troll was presenting himself as was making a claim that the chemicals most of us are using contain some harmful contaminant ( a contaminant he never really was able to name). He was posting inflammatory material without any real proof, while ignoring the practical information and experiences many, many people have had with those chemicals without any ill effect. It was a case of practical experience vs. conjecture. Kind of like the ADA discussion here. Practical experience vs. conjecture. 



> It seems everyone (even mods) very strongly stated that not only was it a waste of money, but viewed it as an attack against Greg Watson and Tom Barr, and locked the posts... but here they are saying "Don't knock it unless you've tried it," and I'm sure no one tried the Reagent ACS chemicals.


What are you trying to imply here, Hypancistrus?

Which of the moderators strongly stated that the chemicals were a waste of money in that thread? The mods weren't the ones knocking the ACS chemicals.

Was the thread an attack on Greg Watson and Tom Barr? Absolutely! Not only could a person make that deduction from just reading that and the related posts, we did some research and confirmed that Maven and the "Doctor" were one and the same and had a personal axe to grind with Mr. Watson and Mr. Barr. That thread wasn't about science. It was a thinly veiled attack on two people. The only person who was attempting to deal with science in that topic was you, much to your credit. 

The problem was not the topic, but the credibility and motives of the poster. I invited the thread starter to reopen the topic without the personal attacks. Maven did not restart the topic, which proves to me it was never really about the science. Those threads were locked based on that. 

You are welcome to start that thread again, Hypancistrus. You have no personal agenda on the topic and we would welcome your views on the ACS chemicals. roud: You might even be able to persuade a few of us to give them a whirl.  

Back to the thread at hand, these two topics are related, but not in the way you are presenting them as I see it.

If you want to add the slightest bit of validity to that past thread then we'll say that thread was about practical experience. The practical experience was with the agricultural grade chemicals we all use vs. the claims of their possible detriments to our aquariums. It was experience (using the chemicals)vs. conjecture ( they might be bad). Just like it is a case of experience (with ADA products) vs. conjecture (an opinion on ADA product based solely on price).




> Just a little confused over what causes these strong, passionate reactions in people. I'm only guessing it's money,


Agreed!


Mike


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## m.lemay (Jul 28, 2002)

Mike: I couldn't have said it better myself. roud:


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Thank you, Marcel.

Guys, I really want to clarify something. 

I know I am coming off like a hot head here, but this topic drives me out of my ever lovin' mind! Please, I am hoping _no one _ takes anything personally! roud: 

I just want folks to reserve judgement until they have an opportunity to use or are able to read and discuss _real_ first hand experiences with more of the products.

This whole thread is really making me consider setting up the new 37G I just bought as an ADA aquarium.....

Mike


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

Well, I didn't see it that way exactly, but I will not comment on it further, I can see I've stirred up some offended feelings.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Are the ADA products pretty? You bet. Are they expensive? You bet. Do they do a much better job? I can't say for sure. If I had the money would I buy them? NO.

$100 for a 17 gallon tank? Sorry.

$3700 for a 170 gallon tank? Sorry. I can setup a larger tank with nice equipment for just the price of this tank. 

If someone asks if they need ADA products my answer will always be NO. If you want them buy them. But no one needs them no more than they need a Dodge Viper to take the toddler to preschool.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Offended feelings. Nope.

I am just none too happy to see that troll's post brought up again. 

You didn't see things my way? Funny, I can't see things your way either. :icon_wink 

Mike


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## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

I voted "yes" for a couple reasons. Products are only worth what people are willing to pay for them. Jeff has said the the initial ADG sales of ADA products have been "robust" so somebody out there thinks they are worth every penny. Also, I myself have been using Aquasoil in a 5.5 gallon nano tank for a good while now, even before the products were available from ADG in the US, and I've been extremely pleased with the results. The plants that I keep in it are almost all considered to be difficult to grow, yet I have had little trouble in this tank. Here is a picture of it that I posted some time back.


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

And grandmasterofpool does not use CO2, only some Excel. Also no water column dosing so far, right?

And how many of us can grow such a thick, lush matt of HC in just little over a month, with no dosing:
http://www.e-aquaria.com/aforest/aqua_forest_13.jpg

The ADA substrate is the best of all ADA products, and the best of all substrate out there. Seeing is believing.


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## turtlehead (May 31, 2005)

I also voted yes, the ada products do work. I also only use excel and don't add liquid ferts.


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## trckrunrmike (Jul 20, 2005)

shalu said:


> And grandmasterofpool does not use CO2, only some Excel. Also no water column dosing so far, right?
> 
> And how many of us can grow such a thick, lush matt of HC in just little over a month, with no dosing:
> http://www.e-aquaria.com/aforest/aqua_forest_13.jpg
> ...


Are you sure they did not dose? AF had ADA ferts all over their store.

Also, ADA is NOT new, its been here since 1997 or earlier. Wait a few years and you'll see these ADA products in China without the name ADA on it and it'll still do the job. I bet you. Hell, even Asian markets beat ADA to the water-softener-tube-thing. The soild is pretty good though, I've seen it in action.


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

Yes, I am sure they have not dosed, the owner told Eric Leung. They also told me that normally you don't need to dose anything at least for the first few months due to the fert in the substrate. This is particularly great for beginners.

I am not buying any in the near future since playing with water parameters is part of the fun in this hobby, but I have to admit I am achieving no where nearly as good results with some demanding plants so far :icon_redf , obviously I am no Tom Barr yet. I might just break down and setup a nice tank with ADA substrate and continue play with water in the mean time.

The cheap knock-offs are already there, Florabase comes to mind. But the results are not the same, nor is their formula exactly the same.


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## awrieger (May 12, 2005)

*"Are Amano's products (ADA) worth the money?"*

Based on functionality, no. Based on style, yes most definitely.

As a question of functionality based on price differential:
Does a Bang&Olufsen sound system produce 10 times better sound than a cheap Japanese stereo?
Does a Ferrari get you to work through bumper to bumper traffic 20 times faster than a Honda?
Does an Armani coat keep you 30 times warmer than a mass produced Chinese one?

Of course the answer is no, no and no. But they got _style_. 

You can't quantify style money-wise. But that's what you're paying for. And style costs money because it's so rare and difficult to acquire. Those who have it don't just give it away! The style market is totally different to the functionality market, and if your product has the style edge over your competitiors', you don't bother price-matching with them.

Look at grandmasterofpool's tank there. The plants are growing brilliantly and look fantastic. I suspect a lot of people here would say you could probably achieve that with other methods. What's missing though is that 'Amano ooh-ahh' factor. As briliant as the plant growth is, the standard tank actually detracts rather than enhances the overall look as the black trim just doesn't have the style of an Amano all-glass open tank.

Look at PJAN's tanks. Very close to matching Amano's style, but has to have the tank custom built to achieve that! So in a sense, you could say Amano tanks are 'pre' custom built for you.

_Edit:_ Scolley's tank too. His new photo thread is getting all the mandatory 'ooh-ahhs', but he had to build that tank by hand!

If I were super-rich, yes! I'd just go buy a whole Amano set-up. Everything Amano. That's the only way to do it imo. Get the whole look and feel thing happening. A living work of art. Even open up the cabinet and it's ooh-ahh at the stainless steel filter. 

But I'm not rich or run a big company, so no! It's bog-standard tanks and equipment for me. I simply wouldn't put an Amano stainless steel filter under my standard tanks because in those surroundings it's a waste of money. All the other cheap equipment just devalues the 'style' I would be paying for and make it pointless.


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## awrieger (May 12, 2005)

shalu said:


> The cheap knock-offs are already there, Florabase comes to mind. But the results are not the same, nor is their formula exactly the same.


In terms of equipment though the knock-offs are on par or even better imo. I'd have to say the Aqua One canister filters from Hong Kong I use which are direct knock-offs of Eheims (virtually identical) at one-third the price are just as good. Actually better, because they're bigger.


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## George (Sep 11, 2004)

As with most aspects of this hobby, the UK is embarassingly far behind. ADA products are not available over here - we've only recently got easy access to dry ferts (UK based source)!

I would love try them though - they look beautiful IMO, I imagine they'd work well too. Unfortunately I cannot say whether they're worth the money.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> Does a Bang&Olufsen sound system produce 10 times better sound than a cheap Japanese stereo?


*YES!* I have owned a B&O stereo system for quite a while now and I can surely tell you it is far superior to a cheap stereo system. Sound quality is much better. I can hear it. I use B&O cordless telephones as well and again, there is no comparison.



> Does a Ferrari get you to work through bumper to bumper traffic 20 times faster than a Honda?
> Does an Armani coat keep you 30 times warmer than a mass produced Chinese one?


The Ferrari can't get you to work any faster, but the car can do a few things the Honda can't, it is not "mass produced", and it is more of a precision machine.

The Armani coat certainly won't keep you any warmer provided the two coats are made of the same fabric, but the odds are that the Armani coat is in fact made of a finer fabric, and hand stitched in some instances as opposed to machine sewn.

I would say more than those products have style, they have design. It may seem like semantics, but anything can have style, few things have design. Design is deliberate, calculated and lasting. Style can just happen and never really lasts. 

A good portion of the price is for the design, you are spot on awrieger, and you also pay for the quality of manufacture. I am certain that is the case with ADA. You pay for the design, you pay for the quality of manufacture, and you also pay the same international shipping charges, tariffs and taxes you would on the B&O, the Ferrari and the Armani coat.

So far it looks like the ADA substrates get a big vote of confidence. They seem to live up to their reputations and their expectations.

Has anyone else used any ADA product other than their substrates? I would really love to hear from someone with some hands on experience with some of these other products.

Mike


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## figgy (Feb 27, 2005)

It depends.... if I had the $$$, I'd go for the lily tubes. Starting to dream about lily tubes.....

Fig


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## random_alias (Jun 28, 2005)

Sometimes I think the reason people are so emotional and opinionated about ADA products is because they _do_ appreciate the design and quality but they are angry on some level that they can't _have it_. We always have a similar reaction whenever we are presented with that scenario in life. We see pictures of his displays, but most of us can't fly to Japan to see them in person. We see pictures of his tanks, but we can't afford to have them in our homes. We see his full displays, but it isn't easy for us to get any real information about them. I, personally, resent that he seems to be sharing just enough to make me very interested while hiding the real substance and wisdom from me. He is making me want it, but he isn't impowering me so that I can achieve it for myself. Why hasn't he written a technical book. He shows me things can be done, but instead of giving me the power to do them for myself, he tells me anecdotal stories from his childhood. It frustrates me and I think it frustrates a lot of other people too.

Compare Amano to another prominent figure, let's call him "Tim".. Tim will talk to me personally. He will answer my questions with factual, concrete statements that I can apply to my aquarium. Tim doesn't give vague statements in order to dodge having to actually share his secrets for success. Tim doesn't seem to have many secrets for success anymore, because he gladly shares his experiences and his findings. Amano seems very secretive, like he wants to be selfish with this nature he poses to share with others. He doesn't share nature with people, he shares _his_ nature with people and he only shares enough to promote his product line. I'm sharing my opinions of the two men. I think they are friends and I don't want either of them to feel like they have to defend themselves or the other. I'm just saying Amano seems to view hobbyist as customers, whereas some other prominent figures view hobbyists as themselves.

It's obvious to me that Amano was at some point a very very enthusiastic hobbyist. I no longer consider him a hobbyist. He is a business man. He inspires but he will not empower you. He will, however, allow you to rent him. If he cared about beautiful aquariums, he would do more than sell them. He would empower people to create their own without dependence on him or his business. 

I think his philosophy of inspiring but not educating is obvious in his products' design, pricing, marketing and technical disclosure.

If I had the money, I would buy some of his stuff, but only because their isn't a comprable direct competitor. I'm getting quotes on one of his tanks right now. If he's business, then he's business. I don't like how he tries to play both fields. I'm looking into some of his equipment, but my judgement isn't clouded by illusions of grandeour or some sense of getting part of a great man. If I buy his product, I still have to go to someone else to figure out how to get the results I want. He may get you the equipment, but you'll have to go to someone else to get the "piece of nature" he pushes so hard.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

random_alias said:


> I think his philosophy of inspiring but not educating is obvious in his products' design, pricing, marketing and technical disclosure.


Slightly off topic, but very well put. I personally could not agree more. It is what it is.


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

random_alias, what are you basing this on, one of his coffee-table books?

You need to get yourself the last several copies of Tropical Fish Hobbyist. He now writes full several paged articles each month that _do_ get into technical details and practical application of his techniques.


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## Cheeseybacon (Feb 13, 2005)

Now this is just a stab into the dark as to why Amano doesn't share his secrets... it's a very stereotyping, politically uncorrect stab, but a stab nevertheless. 

A decent amount of asian philosophy revolves around the idea that you don't need to know the details of how something works, just do it as you are instructed to do, and the meaning and understanding behind it will come with time. In a way maybe that's the approach Amano is taking, _"buy my products, use what I use, and with time you'll understand exactly why you paid so much for them."_ 

I dunno, I'm probably way off. I just started an asian philosophy class and it got me thinking. :tongue:


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Cheesy - I'm no student of Asian culture, but I did study bonsai for years. And it really took westerners to break it open an make it accessible IMO. You can read bonsai books from 25+ years ago, translated from Japanese, and you don't get squat for information about "why". It's all about "what" and "how". Never understanding of "why".

For reasons I do not understand, that was not taught, or described.


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## m.lemay (Jul 28, 2002)

I guess it's just differences in culture. This is also readily apparent when it comes to technology. We design and create new technology and the Asians perfect it and refine it and make it cheaper. But the original ideas all seem to come from here. I think the melting pot of cultures here has a natural tendency towards taking 2 or 3 different ideas and combining them to come up with something new or a new twist.

Interesting stuff!


scolley said:


> Cheesy - I'm no student of Asian culture, but I did study bonsai for years. And it really took westerners to break it open an make it accessible IMO. You can be bonsai books from 25+ years ago, translated from Japanese, and you don't get squat for information about "why". It's all about "what" and "how". Never understanding of "why".
> 
> For reasons I do not understand, that was not taught, or described.


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## awrieger (May 12, 2005)

Cheeseybacon said:


> Now this is just a stab into the dark as to why Amano doesn't share his secrets...


Can you read Italian? No need anyway as the pics tell the story! See this thread.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

awrieger said:


> Can you read Italian? No need anyway as the pics tell the story! See this thread.


Still looks like "How" and/or "What to me. Does not appear to have a spec of info on "Why", so that I can understand enough to do something similar, but not the same, with confidence.

Completely consistent with Japanese bonsai teaching. It's certainly a style imparting knowledge that keeps the student returning to the feet of Teacher-san. Everybody stays in their place.


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## duck (Apr 22, 2004)

scolley said:


> Still looks like "How" and/or "What to me. Does not appear to have a spec of info on "Why", so that I can understand enough to do something similar, but not the same, with confidence.
> 
> Completely consistent with Japanese bonsai teaching. It's certainly a style imparting knowledge that keeps the student returning to the feet of Teacher-san. Everybody stays in their place.


 "WHY"
Why is this going off the topic?

IMO You learn "WHY" not get told "WHY" ,I tell you what to do,I tell how to do it,Then you say,Now i know "WHY"
Maybe i'm just a poorly educated person and don't Know"WHY" I replied.


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

awrieger said:


> Can you read Italian? No need anyway as the pics tell the story! See this thread.


http://babelfish.altavista.digital...._en&trurl=http://www.naturacquario.net/amano/

Why make yet another thread instead of posting that here in this one?

Also, this is sort of a step by step on placement. I think people are referring to technical and other specifics, such as water chemistry and what to add / how to add it, etc. So that link still doesn't really address the issue.


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## m.lemay (Jul 28, 2002)

The "Why" is so much more important than the "How and What". How and What teach the student how to do that one specfic task. The Why explains the reasonings behind it. Those reasonings can be used to create new things.

How and What is geared towards memorization, the Why is geared towards reasoning.

Simple example. : You memorize your multiplication tables, now you know how to multiply up to 12x12, big deal. The why enables you to be able to multiply things like 143 x 62 or 112,345,678 x 639.

A more complicated example for those of us who are mechanically inclined: You're taught how to put a new camshaft in your 350 cu in small block chevy. Great now you know how to do it. 

The why teaches you things like valve timing and why you might want to change a camshaft in the first place.

I could go on and on about this. Why leads to creative new solutions. How and what leads to "same as it ever was" OR "thats the way we've always done it".

Sorry about the off topic discussion. :icon_redf


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## baj (Sep 16, 2004)

I voted on "it depends". 
As talented as Amano is, marketing his talent by publishing glossy books with awesome presentation of photos of his tanks, with some philosophy etc thrown in separates him from other similarly talented hobbyists. Now anyone else who attempts something similar will always be compared to Amano, not necessarily because Amano's sculptures are inherently better, but because he was the first person to publish them in a marketable way. No denying his talent but documentation is the key and he did it first. Amano is the USP of ADA. So his reputation is necessary for ADA to sell, I am sure for the lay person who walks into a speciality store and asks why would he pay $$ bucks for a bag of dirt, the propreiter would point the customer to his handy "Nature Aquarium World" and flip through a few pages (or am I way off base here?).
On whether ADA are worth it, its not like we are comparing pacemakers, where an $80k piece of plastic is "worth it" compared to a duracell with 2 wires soldered to it. What motivates someone to go for an ADA product? If the motivation is strong enough, any amount that ADA charges is worth it. The motivation can be "because Amano uses it"(does he? what did he use before there was ADA?) or "because it is streets ahead technologically than anything else out there". I dont know if ADA employs a crack team of chemists who have figured out what it takes to infuse "power" (by that I mean the special ingredient mix) into soil, I doubt that information came from Amano himself, he may have tinkered with nature aquariums for 3-4 decades but I doubt just that experience alone gave him enough information to mass produce magic sand. But I am rambling now... I thought long and hard before hitting the submit button, if that was a mistake do let me know and I will do the needful.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

I would like someone to explain the "Why" you are looking for.

If it is a "why" about wood, rock or plant placement then the "why" is going to be dictated by the Golden Ratio. 

Most of the "whys" in the Nature Aquarium will lead you back to the Golden ratio as I see it.

Mike


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## mshaeffer (Nov 29, 2002)

I voted "depends"

If I had the money to use everything they sell and it was better in quality and apperance.............YOU BET I WOULD USE IT ALL!!


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## Owen (Aug 27, 2005)

I recently bought his Amazonia substrate based on recommendations from an Asian hobbyist very familiar with the products. This is what he said to me:




> Besides Flourite, have you considered Eco-complete or ADA Aquasoil (Amazonia)? [...] The ADA Aquasoil (Amazonia) is my substrate of choice. The difference in plant growth is simply amazing! Avoid getting the Malaya and Africana though. They crumble easily and get really messy.





> Compared to Flourite, I prefer the ADA. It's much easier to plant, doesn't cut your fingers or plants like Flourite, and can grow a lot of plants better. It's also lighter and doesn't get too compact over time, so your roots still get some breathing space. It lowers the PH of the water to about 6.2PH. [...] I've since converted all my SIX tanks to the ADA Amazonia substrate. Hell it's expensive, it doesn't list the actual mineral contents, but it's the best substrate I've used. It's a tough call, but if it's only slightly more expensive, go for it.





> I've never regretted using the ADA Aquasoil. Beats any other substrate I've ever used. [...] Also, there's no need to get the PowerSand, or PowerSand Special, or Bacter100 or any other additional stuff. I've tried them all and they don't really make that much of a difference to warrant the price. All you need is the Aquasoil. There's already enough nutrients in there to last you a good 2 years at least.


The price difference for the same amount of Flourite and the ADA AquaSoil Amazonia was $50.00CDN. I am planning on doing my new tank "right" so I figured I'd go for "it".

The same reaosn why I'd buy an iPod instead of a Creative Zen. Just for "it."


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Cut your fingers on Flourite? 

Never heard of such a thing and never experience such a thing. Also I have never experienced any plants getting cut with Flourite. Anyone that makes this comment has IMHO never worked with Flourite. And once they make that statement I have to assume that everything else they are saying is also a lie.

And I have never had a problem with Flourite compacting. Compaction is more a function of grain size and shape, not weight.


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## Bert H (Dec 15, 2003)

Is it worth it? For me, I also think it depends. Basically on the individual and what their goal is and what their budget is. From what I have read from various people who have used the ADA substrate, it's like 'plug and play'. It seems you're virtually guaranteed success right off the bat in growing healthy plants. For newbies and folks who don't want to tinker too much with their tanks and ferts, this might be great. Nothing like initial success to whet your appetite and keep you interested in the hobby if you're just starting out. My concern with their substrates is longevity. What happens after the tank has been set up for two or three years? Will you then need to start dosing the ferts that most of us now do, or will you need to tear down and add a fresh batch of substrate? This is an issue I haven't seen addressed anywhere. (If someone has some references to this, I would love a link.) Perhaps after 2-3 years, then it just becomes 'substrate' that you manage how you would any other by normal fert regimens/routines.

Then you have the cost issue. It ain't cheap! I have to say the ADA tanks are beautiful. It's obvious the workmanship is top notch, so you decide if you want a Honda or you want a Porsche. It's your choice. 

Some folks wouldn't think of building a CO2 reactor without using clear pvc so they can see what's going on. Others will build them with normal pvc because it's so much cheaper and they don't care if it's 'cool' or not. 

So, it depends...


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## jgc (Jul 6, 2005)

ADA is filling quite a few niche in the community. Amano has shown us what can be accomplished if the cost/benifit analysis is ignored. Oceanic probably did studies of rimless tanks. They probably came up too expensive to make, too high of failure ration on shipping, etc... They probably came to the conclusion that they would have to charge $$$ to make them viable - and that not enough people would buy them at that price. Amano came out - this is how it should be done and we will charge $$$$. Difference is that 1) we get to enjoy seeing the beauty of the product and 2) a small fractional percentage of hobbiest have the joy of owning near one of the kind peices of art.

Personally I don't own any originals - but that does not mean I don't apreaciate going to gallaries or owning prints.

I want to do my best to capture the spirit of a Amano styled tank. If I am ever given gifts of ADA products I will probably use and cherish them. On the other hand, not sure if I could bear to pay the prices that some of them command - but who knows $170 for a framless nano does not sound so bad anymore. Wait, only $100 for a 17 - that is sounding downright cheep...


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## harsaphes (Oct 10, 2005)

Nothing wrong with being a successful business man......And i would think there are many companies, that are very successful and their success is based on their trade/company secrets.
I have not yet set my tank up, but the first book i ordered on Amazon was his "coffee" table book. I hope my tank will someday look like any one of the tanks in that book.
His secret?...hard work, and doing the same thing over and over till you figure it out for yourself.....and then marketing yourself....sounds good to me!
His products?.......dont know if i will buy everything/anything...but i sure was excited to find out i could.
I say....Kudos to you....and more success in the future.


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## thatguy (Oct 11, 2005)

i think they are worth the cost, if you can afford it. ADA products, especially hardware are well designed. The look and feel is top notch.


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## AoiGSR (Aug 17, 2005)

I know I should be  ing but i got caught up in all the reading of this post :tongue: .

I also put It depends. I haven't used any of their products but I think it's what one values on the product. People buy bottled water, some drink from the tap, others, use RO, etc. 

I started getting into plants mainly because of hearing about him for the first time at my LFS. I think Amano offered the LFS to put down 500k to start carrying Amano's stuff and the LFS was not interested at all. (who is going to buy those tools that cost $500 when you can get the same thing from say made somewhere else, for less? (I have some tongs etc from them that I am using for my tanks, which do the job roud: ) I guess at one time, Amano packaged his tools and was placed in a nice wooden box :icon_bigg . They no longer sell that I hear, but if you wanted to buy it, you could.

I think it all depends on how much one wants to spend on an item. For example, Snap-on tools (automotive). The best. expensive. good stuff. Others may disagree. Craftsmen. The best. not expensive. good stuff. Both do the same thing. I have some snap-on tools, some craftsmen, husky, etc. Some of the Snap-on tools, I love, but other stuff, why bother? 

My LFS said thanks to Amano's books, this brought an increase in sales for plant styled tanks and equipment. Some people from Japan that lived/worked in the area would come to his shop and buy something like the Florabase and not even think about the price. Perhaps they were told it was good to use or had experience with it in the past. Nevertheless, everyone will buy something for the right price.

Anyway, I am babbling as well. Tons of products out there. Just have to pick and choose and try them out (or listen to others but also make your own judgements). I might be kind of blanketing but I have no experience on the products :hihi: Just writing my thoughts on the post.


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## Marc (Oct 13, 2004)

Pfft... If I had the ends to buy some ADA stuff, I'd probably buy it all. And if I had money for a Ferrari- guess what I'd buy that also!

I think the majority of you all know that- if you came up on a nice chunk of change, and had nothing better to do with it- you would by some ADA goodies also.

Not everyone can afford ADA products and not everyone can afford a Ferrari. ( I can afford neither) But there is no way you are going to compare a Ferrari to a Honda, just like there is no way I am going to compare an ADA tank to a AGA tank.

His products are worth the money IMO.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

While in San Francisco I got the opportunity to handle a lot of ADA product and have seen it in action. 

CO2 diffusers look good! Moderate sized bubbles appear efficeint...as did the non-ADA diffusers. 

Lily pipes are gorgeous...the return pipe in particular. Nicely made and well shaped. It does appear that form follows function in the case of the lily pipes.

*QUALITY * would definitely be the word I'd use to describe ADA glassware based on it's appearance, feel in the hand, and the functionality I was able to observe.

The stainless steel? I actually got to handle a pair of the $100 ADA scissors. They are nice. Much, better than the $5 scissors most hobbyists use for sure. However, I would say that _by feel,_ they are on a par with the curved scissors you get with the Aquarium Landscapes kits many of us have and many of the vendors have available. 

Overall, my impression is that the glassware is slickly designed, quality merchandise for those who may be inclined. The stainless steel is OK, and much better than the scissors sold at the check out at the local hardware, but not better than the stainless sold in readily available aquascaping kits.

Mike


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

I only have one thing to say about ADA products..... If you have the money, then you will not complain about the price of this upper tier equipment. If you can't afford it then you have no business complaining about the price. 

If you can't afford a 60ft yacht then buy a rowboat and stop complaing that other people can and will, buy these expensive items. 

That being said, I generally can't afford ADA products, but I still think they are of high quality and excellent design. I will not badmouth ADA because I can't afford to buy their products. The hatred for ADA is rooted in jealousy IMO. My inability to afford to buy ADA products is not the fault of ADA, it is wholely my own.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> That being said, I generally can't afford ADA products, but I still think they are of high quality and excellent design. I will not badmouth ADA because I can't afford to buy their products. The hatred for ADA is rooted in jealousy IMO. My inability to afford to buy ADA products is not the fault of ADA, it is wholely my own.


Hope that wasn't directed at my comments on the ADA stainless steel, Bob.  I held and manipulated the scissors and can honestly say they were on an even par with the Aquarium Landscapes scissors. I handle medical instruments everyday and and certainly feel qualified to draw that conclusion. roud: 

Mike


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

Momotaro said:


> Hope that wasn't directed at my comments on the ADA stainless steel, Bob.  I held and manipulated the scissors and can honestly say they were on an even par with the Aquarium Landscapes scissors. I handle medical instruments everyday and and certainly feel qualified to draw that conclusion. roud:
> 
> Mike



Nah... it wasn't directed at you. I use a pair of surgical forceps that I swiped from a hospital I used to bring patients to. I was merely voicing my opinion on the whiners


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## aquaphish (Dec 20, 2002)

Hey!!!

I got some of those very long scissors and the feel and the way they cut are just great!!! Add some long twezzers and your set to trim til you drop!!!

But the clincher I got mine at the LA County Fair for $1.99ea.!!!!

Can't decide if ADA products are worth the money spent when I can get cheaper equipment that does the job. :tongue: :tongue:


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

For me, they are not worth the $$ for no other reason then It can be done for less. I like figureing out how to do something and then doing it myself. I can go to the grocery store and buy Hydroponic or some other top of the line tomato, but they will never taste as good to me as one I grow myself.

That bewing said there is a definate market for upper tier aquarium supplys and ADA fills it nicely. I most likely never will buy ADA but I will look to them for insperation.


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## thatguy (Oct 11, 2005)

how many people who think ada stuff isnt worth the money has even seen any ada equipent up close? ever see an ada tank set up with their own eyes?

when you see ada up close you can easily see the quality. its like the rowboat or ferrari analogy. if i had the scrilla to burn, i would have all ada stuff.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> I got some of those very long scissors and the feel and the way they cut are just great!!!


ADA scissors?

Has anyone who is chiming in on ADA equipment and its cost/performance relationship actually _tried_ any of this equipment? I made this argument much earlier in the thread, but commenting without any real experience seems pretty darn foolish to me. :icon_roll 

Wise is the man (or woman) who says "I don't know".

Mike


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Mike,

One doesn't have to have used some products to know they are not worth the money.

Is a $700 gold DuPont lighter better for lighting cigars than a $5 lighter? Nope. But it sure makes a nice PING when you flip the lid and looks impressive as all get out.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> One doesn't have to have used some products to know they are not worth the money.


I see where you are coming from, Rex, and I would say I generally agree, but the level of condemnation here is a bit over the top at times. This vehement disapproval of all things ADA just comes off as prejudicial. For once I would like to hear a non-monetary comment on the stuff. I'd like to hear about performance as opposed to price.

There seems to be absolutely no first hand experience.....until now.

While in San Francisco I dropped by Aqua Forest and I checked out some of the ADA items. As I said earlier, the stainless steel was definitely a stretch, but the glassware seemed to work flawlessly. Being on vacation and in the "treat myself" mode I made a couple of purchases. I'll be setting up the new 37G Oceanic cube and plan to try out the ADA products on the 37G. 

Keep an eye peeled on the "Photo Album" section in the next couple of months.

Mike


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## trckrunrmike (Jul 20, 2005)

When I went into AquaForest I immediately skipped the ferts, soil, glassware and just admired the plants and aquascapes that I have never ever seen in real life. I knew I could not afford it so why look? It'll just make me hate myself more.


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## figgy (Feb 27, 2005)

Momotaro said:


> I'll be setting up the new 37G Oceanic cube and plan to try out the ADA products on the 37G.
> 
> Keep an eye peeled on the "Photo Album" section in the next couple of months.
> 
> Mike


O yay! Waiting with finger poised on the mouse! PIX!!!!!

Fig


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## Stealthy Ninja (Feb 16, 2006)

awrieger said:


> In terms of equipment though the knock-offs are on par or even better imo. I'd have to say the Aqua One canister filters from Hong Kong I use which are direct knock-offs of Eheims (virtually identical) at one-third the price are just as good. Actually better, because they're bigger.



Or Jebao, which are also direct knock-offs of Eheims and even cheaper.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I think some of the products are well worth the $.
Aqua soil, some of the glassware, the checkvalve bubble counter is cool.
The scissors are certainly over priced, we have similar things here for 1/4 the cost, AAG has nice scissors for decent prices. I have some ADA scissors as well. The tanks are also well worth it in the 40-75 gal range, the 20 is over priced here.
Those are the main items that I've found useful, the lily pipes etc can be had by some folks in the USA for about 1/2 the cost. 

The mini regulator/needle valve are actually available here for about 1/2 to 1/3 the cost also, same types of brand.

Dupla brought a number of newe things to the market also, but after using some of the productsm we found most where not needed andf the siginificant ones where retained, CO2 addition was the biggest thing Dupla really brought to the main stream. Heat cables? No.........

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## John S (Feb 27, 2004)

i didnt vote cause i have never seen any of his stuff


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

Certain things are, while others aren't. It's more along the likes of luxury for some of the products, but for others, it's well worth it (e.g. their soils).


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