# Dwarf sagitarria not really dwarf sag at all?



## Church (Sep 14, 2004)

So this was brought up in another thread, and I don't want to hijack that person's thread...

A lot of people make mention of dwarf sag not being very "dwarf" at all, and talk of it growing huge in a tank. Some people even post pictures of it and it looks like a big bush of liriope that has been submerged or something. Yet, I've personally grown it under high-light, medium-light, and low-medium-light, and it always stays short. My question is:

Are these people mistaken about their superhuge sag being actual dwarf sag? Or have I been growing some pygmy variety of it?

Are there multiple varieties of dwarf sagitarria?

It's confusing, and it seeems worthy of discussion, since many people could potentially using it as a nano carpet plant, but aren't because they think it will grow too tall. Or the vice versa, people will think they can use it as a midground plant in a larger tank, but it will stay lower than their foreground plants?

What's the deal with sagitarria?


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## MrJG (Feb 21, 2007)

Heh good one. 

I've had some "dwarf sag" that I kept in a small 2.5g nano with 8W of light. It carpeted well and stayed <2 inches high with very healthy growth and lots of runners. This tank has aquasoil and a lower ph-kh.

I took plants from that tank and placed them in my 10G Hex tank with 18W of PC light and they grew 2-3 times taller. This tank has seachem onyx sand and the ph is closer to neutral.

Literally the same plants in two slightly different tanks yielded completely different growth. 

I have a similar situation with Echinodorus Tenellus 'micro' or 'pink' whatever you call it. It grew low and carpeted in my 20L with 65W + 48W T5HO... moved some plants to the new 40G breeder with 2X96W PC and they are growing tall with no notice of the nice pink/purple coloration. Both tanks have aquasoil and similar PH/KH values. 

This should be a good discussion. IMO slightly different lighting intensities or slightly different water parameters are changing the growth patterns.


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## macclellan (Dec 22, 2006)

MrJG said:


> This should be a good discussion. IMO slightly different lighting intensities or slightly different water parameters are changing the growth patterns.


+1 
same experience here.


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## Manda99 (Apr 30, 2008)

I'm confused by dwarf sag as well. I've got several plants from 3 different sources. One group is planted in my high light and pressurized CO2 tank. I've got it sort as a carpet surrounding a crypt and it really hasn't grown any more than the 2 or 3 inches it was when I planted it several months ago. It looks healthy and is sending out runners, but isn't growing taller vertically. I have one other dwarf sag plant in that tank that I got elsewhere and just kinda tossed in there out of the way and it's growing like crazy - started at maybe 4 inches and now it's probably 7 inches. Then, I have another group of plants that I got from the most recent source. I've got them planted in my son's low light, very low tech tank and was hoping they'd work as a foreground, low-lying carpetish plant (like the ones in my other tank have done), but I can tell already it's not going to work. They've already outgrown their placement. I was hoping they'd stay tiny like the ones in my other tank.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

This plant?http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/myplants/113-Dwarf_Sagittaria_Sagittaria_subulata.html

I had this in a 150G tank that was 30" deep with high light and all that stuff. It grew 12+ inches in length and the flowers grew to the surface.
It carpeted the whole tank in just a few months, but it just grew to tall.


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## Daniel*Swords (May 8, 2006)

As what comes to the dwarf sag, I think there might be 2 different species growing in our tanks. The one that I have has never grown taller than 4'' even in the lowest of light levels. It was sold to me as _Sagittaria teres_, a native to the U.S. After growing this plant at the Botanical Garden of Turku University in a rather shallow container it made a flower stalk and some flowers. This enabled me and my botanist friend to ID it, tentatively, as _Sagittaria demersa_ (with the help of FNA at eFloras). Nothing to do with _Sagittaria subulata_, often sold under the name of the dwarf sag!

So, I call out to you people to try and grow your plant in a shallow water in order to get it flowering. I tried growing my plant emersed but it failed, which supports the ID of _S. demersa_. This is the way to try to get a proper ID for the plant species [possibility for plural intended here] we keep in the tanks. 

As to _Helanthium tenellum_ (as _Echinodorus tenellus_ is validly called nowadays), how high does it grow for you in your 40G? The width of the leaves is 1 (max 2) mm, right?


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## Church (Sep 14, 2004)

For instance, here is a picture of what I believe to be dwarf sag in a 10 gallon tank, medium lighting, no CO2:











And here is another pic of what I believe to be dwarf sag in a 2.5 gallon, low-light, no CO2 tank:











The plant spreads, quite quickly, but it never gets taller than this. So how can this be the same plant as the one that Orlando grew that got to be over 12"? It just doesn't make sense to me...


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## Daniel*Swords (May 8, 2006)

Church said:


> So how can this be the same plant as the one that Orlando grew that got to be over 12"? It just doesn't make sense to me...


It can happen that it is not the same species. Or if it is, then there is some special trigger that makes the plant grow tall.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

*Tall Sag*

Here is a crappy picture of Sag in my tank. Its 12+" tall and Like I siad it sends countless flowers to the surface 30" up..
Im not sure what to think..


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## Daniel*Swords (May 8, 2006)

Orlando, would you have a pic of the whole flower stalk? That might elucidate a bit.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

No, its hard for me to take a whole stalk photo due to them being 30" long.
But it looks exactly the same from bottom to flower. In fact you cant even see the bottom. Remember the Sag is 12+ inches tall, so you cant see the bottom 12"... I wish I was better skilled with the camera.


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## Church (Sep 14, 2004)

I wonder if the addition of CO2 is what triggers the plant to grow tall? Because that's the one thing I haven't had an opportunity to do yet: grow dwarf sag in a co2 injected tank...


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## Daniel*Swords (May 8, 2006)

Orlando said:


> No, its hard for me to take a whole stalk photo due to them being 30" long.
> But it looks exactly the same from bottom to flower. In fact you cant even see the bottom.


Do you mean there is only one flower per stalk? If so, your plant might be a _Vallisneria_, esp. if the flowers don't break the surface but stay on/ at it! _Sagittaria_s have many flowers on the same stalk. If it's like this, then could you take a pic of the part with all the flowers? Maybe even cut a stalk and take it out of the tank for a pic?
And your pics are just fine by me. 

A pic of a _Vallisneria_ flower
A pic of _Sagittaria_ flowers on a stalk


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## reddragon1977 (May 30, 2007)

i cant say that c02 makes them grow tall. I have the most basic tank you han have and i mow my sag weekly. It grows and spreads faster than my hygro! in fact i have thrown some away as it overtakes the tank. Ill send any of you some free if you want to experiment with it (just cover the shipping) You can see then im my profile.


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## reddragon1977 (May 30, 2007)

the picture and density of your sag is impressive orlando!!! be proud!!!!


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

The stalks will have as many as 4-6 flowers each. Some will have just one flower, but most will have multiple flowers.


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## Daniel*Swords (May 8, 2006)

Ok, so it is a sag.  Could you make other measurements? Like the length of the pedicels, the width of the flowers, how many flowers per whorl (node), etc.? And the width and length of the leaves with the shape of the section of a leaf near the crown (like triangular, flattened, rounded, etc.)? This could help us pinpoint the species.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

Length= 3"-12"
Number of buds per stem= 1-4
Shape of the leaf crown= ^
Width of leaves= 5mm
Width of flower= closed=2-3mm, open= 5-10mm

Hope this helps you


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## Daniel*Swords (May 8, 2006)

It helps a bit!
If you give more info, then we can narrow it down more.

It can be, at least (*reading Flora of North America*):
_S. subulata_, (probably not: _fasciculata_)

But not:
_S. filiformis_, _kurziana_, (maybe not: _demersa_), _teres_, _rigida_, _graminea_, (_cristata_), (_isoetiformis_)


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## MrJG (Feb 21, 2007)

Daniel*Swords said:


> As to _Helanthium tenellum_ (as _Echinodorus tenellus_ is validly called nowadays), how high does it grow for you in your 40G? The width of the leaves is 1 (max 2) mm, right?


Yea thats about right. It stayed short (<3 inches) and carpeted quickly in the 20 and got a really nice pinkish-purple coloration. Same plants in the 40... there is one that is easily 6" long now. I just looked and you can still see the stripe down the middle of the leaf but its getting nowhere near the color it got in the other tank under the T5HO.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Orlando said:


> Length= 3"-12"
> Number of buds per stem= 1-4
> Shape of the leaf crown= ^
> Width of leaves= 5mm
> ...


Does this or the flower rule out E. angustifolius?


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## Daniel*Swords (May 8, 2006)

lauraleellbp said:


> Does this or the flower rule out E. angustifolius?


The measures as _per se_ don't rule a _Helanthium_ species out but the flowers do: _Helanthium_s don't flower submersed.



MrJG said:


> Same plants in the 40... there is one that is easily 6" long now.


Interesting. Would you keep me posted how high it will eventually become, pls.? Thanks!


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