# CO2 mesh bell...Eureka!!!! A perfect simple solution?



## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

I have a Hagen ladder in my 10 gallon tank and it works just fine. I admit it would be nicer if it were just a bit shorter but it does fit.


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## malkore (Nov 3, 2003)

You wouldn't get enuf pressure to push thru an airstone, it'd just bubble out from the bottom.

Rex is right...the hagen ladder is the bomb-diggity.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=8981&Ne=40000&R=4935&Nao=9&N=2004+2021
$9.99 for the ladder/diffuser.


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## fedge (Mar 4, 2004)

9.99 but you have to include the shipping.. I have ordered all my fish stuff for now (im tapped out for the time being--about for the 4 next months)... The airstone system I tried would work!!!.. I just need to be able to weigh it down .. air pushes a lot under water...

Ok.. I need more links.. not critisizm(sp)... The idea is I AM going to DIY this project.. I like the ladder(i own one)..but it just is too big ugly for a 10 to me.. a small bell or other things will h ide better.

Please no more ladder suggestions...


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

Here's what I used to do to get really small bubbles into my HOB filter so it wouldn't make that aweful burping noise all the time...cram a 1 inch piece of chopstick into the airline...give it some time and you'll have zillions of tiny little bubbles coming out. Another option that worked for me was using UNSMOKED cigarette filter butts. The fine fiberglass is good for diffusing the bubbles too. Unwrap the paper from the butt and twist the butt into the airline. Then give the pressure some time to build and again, zillions of tiny bubbles. The only problem with both of the methods is over time (a couple weeks) you'll have that milky white buildup (like using an airstone for diffusion...you all know what I'm talking about).


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## zapus (May 26, 2004)

A bell, you say... hmmm, how about running your CO2 to one of these http://www.arcatapet.com/item.cfm?cat=526 :icon_bigg I though about something like this just to give my kids a charge.


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## fedge (Mar 4, 2004)

Yah I was looking at them.. they hold a good size bubble of the Co2 for awhile... but I didnt find one that would suit the tank.


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## Rikko (Jan 24, 2004)

Find a small fiberglass coffee filter - the ones that are cup-shaped and made of a very find mesh. Tip it upside down and let CO2 collect under there. It won't bubble out unless the whole chamber is filled to brimming but CO2 will diffuse across it. I've yet to set mine up in my tank as I've been busy with reef stuff.
I did have good luck using a plastic tube (I used most of a gravel vac) with a big chunk of foam stuffed into the top. Again, the CO2 built up inside the foam and the CO2 diffused into the water without bubbling up, albeit there was the odd "fart" when too much buildup occurred.


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## fedge (Mar 4, 2004)

those sound pretty good... I would have to make sure it was stainless steel filter though... (most are I think)...keep em coming...


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## Rikko (Jan 24, 2004)

I'm fairly sure my filter is made up of fiberglass or some kind of hard plastic. If not, it must be aluminum. Is that bad?


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## rustarific (Apr 21, 2004)

Hey fedge, you guys have 7/11's over there in Iowa? I been there once on a road trip and don't recall seeing one. If you do, the 7/11 has these split compartment Slurpy cups you may be able to use as a bell. Cut it at the split and you'll end up with a half circle cup with a flat side. If you look at it from the top it will look like a " D ". Trim it to whatever height you need, silicone a pair of suction cups to it, and it will probably tuck in nice and neat in the rear of your tank. The cup is a hard translucent plastic so it shouldn't be too distracting, but you may need to use a drill if you need holes in the cup.


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## Rolo (Dec 10, 2003)

Why are you going through all this trouble? Just stick it in the intake of your AC filter, they work great. Thats how I get my CO2 dissolved. You said you don't want alot of CO2 because you have low light? Well if its low maybe you won't need CO2. And beside that fact, your not going to OD with an AC filter. To control the amount you adjust recipe.


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## fedge (Mar 4, 2004)

well to answer back to Rolo....

I got a 5 gallon tank that really greens out better with co2..even though it aint much (about 3b/min)... it did help out with growth rates. This tank is a 10 gallon with about 20 watts of pc light.. it really needs the co2...I get good growth from everything (even the ludwigia repens is REDISH--a sign that the light is high enough).

HOWEVER>..... Today I hit the Eureka!!!!

Spinning off the idea from Rikko... I took some of my fiberglass epoxy coated screen material(i use it for filter bags)...and doubled it up (three layers may be better..just make sure that they are offset 45deg from each-other) and rubber banded it to the bottom of a spice container I had lying around. I cut the bottom off and weighed it down with plant weights (temp.). I then took the hose out of the crappy pop bottle difuser I got in the 29gallon and hooked it up to this little thing...(hard to do underwater). It dumped a large bubble of co2 under the mesh.. and about all the hosing under the water then backfilled (you know when the pressure is not enough to push the water out of th hose...if that makes sense). This bubble disolved in about 3 mins... or less. Then more bubbles came. It did burp once or twice.. but I am thinking that is becuase the unit is not level.. if the screen was level and about 3 in diameter instead of 1.5 it would do better. After watching the thing do ITS thing for about 30 minutes, I decided that this may be the way to go. I have no idea though if the acidity of the co2/h20 mix is going to eat up the epoxy.. or what have you. This is something that only time will tell. I would imagine that over time this device may get ineffecient..but having a larger surface area will allow you to NOT have to survice it a lot over time (maybe once every 6 months--allways cool not to service something ALL the time). Thanks for all the suggestions... I think I found my new toy....


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

The epoxy resin should be inert, but you've just given me an idea of my own, thanks


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## bigpow (May 24, 2004)

courtesy pics please?


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## fedge (Mar 4, 2004)

Here's how I made mine... 
image shown below...








A. Cut a cylinder about 2" in height.. Diameter depends on that amount of CO2 you want to disolve into the tank (so size of tank and ammount of co2 will determin the size of the diameter).. In a 10 gallon tank and below.. about 1.5 to 2 inch is all that is needed (with about 12 or less bubbles per minute)... in a 29 gallon I used a 3" diamter pop bottle, cut up.. ) This way ALL the co2 will disolve and none will bubble past the screening material!!!

B. holes are cut for the airline, and two suction cups.

C. Cut two squares of the window mesh approximately 25-50% larger than the conatiner..

D. fit them to the cylinder.. one mesh should be a quarter turn off set from teh one below (this makes a 45 deg angle difference in the patterns and smaller holes!!) I am unsure if two are really needed but it makes smaller holes and the smaller the better. It takes a lot more pressure to sqeeze air through a small hole than a big hole (try breathing through a vaccum cleaner tube and then a straw)...


E. Finish... I attached the screens(temp) with a rubber band.. then cut off the excess screen material (be careful not to leave sharp edges for stupid fish to kill themselves on)...I plan on glueing them on next time with either hot glue or a band of plastic epoxied to the outside (like a clamp). Attach the hose into the hole..(the hole should be small enough to hole the hose securely). and then attach the suction cups...I guess any good suction cup could be used. (like the ones that hang window ornaments)... I use two so that you can level the device (important to do), and so it holds very well in teh tank. If you expose the DIY yeast to air again after it starts the co2 production you could mess up the reaction(like a fresh bottle of yeast). Hope this helps... BTW this idea is for people to use for their OWN uses.. not to make money off it. If you would like to help me develope and sell this item I am free to discuss that prospect. This is really a cheap and easy along with simple idea... it is good looking and very adaptable to any tank.


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## fedge (Mar 4, 2004)

BTW .. this sytem has NO or not any noticable loss of Co2..!!! I watched for about an hour and never noticed a bubble of co2 or other gasses escaping (after the yeast reaction took off totally--yeast produces good co2 and has pushed out all the excess atmosphere gasses in about 12-16 hours usually..IME)


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## pufferfreak (Oct 19, 2003)

I'm doing this for my 55 gallon now thanks!! I hope it works out, i'm going to try 3 layers of the mess caz mind has some big holes.....anyways I'm useing a plastic cup for the bell thing.....I drilled some holes in it and put some suction cups so that the thing will fit into the corner of the tank and still work ! Hope it does.....Thanks for the idea!!


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## pufferfreak (Oct 19, 2003)

quick question, I did the same with a plastic cup, it dosent have a bottom should I cut out the bottom?? Its holding bulbes very well and I guess diffusing them good....any thoughts? Its at an angle so the bubbles sit on one side...but they stay


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## zapus (May 26, 2004)

Fedge, what ppm are you getting in your 10 with this? Looks a lot easier to hide than a ladder.


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## amanda huggenkiss (Mar 3, 2004)

Verrrry interesting... Do you think netting would work instead of mesh (with sharp edges)? I've got three fish nets -- I'm sure I could sacrifice one of them.


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## pufferfreak (Oct 19, 2003)

I just checked my diffuser I made, and its not diffuseing any bubbles I guess, if it is it sure is slow, theres a huge bubble in there, i'm thinking about taking one of the messes off.


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## fedge (Mar 4, 2004)

If you never see any bubbles come up from this difusor then it is working.. Sometimes gas will exchange from your tank to the air voids that is created by the CO2, just as quickly as the co2 disolves (once the system reaches equalibrium--maxium co2 around the unit)...increasing the water flow around the difusor may help the process. I have noticed that in my 29 gallon that sometimes the buble is big (like in the morning).. and in the evening it is noticably smaller(in the evening).

The reason for teh mesh has been discussed before.... its teh hole size (blowing through a straw.).. try this experiment. take a pin and punch about 20 holes (by heating the pin up over a candle) around the top of a pop bottle..cap the bottle and plunge it into some water.. you will see tons of bubbles escape.. the more you plunge it down the more you will see.. till the bottle is empty. Now, if you got tons of time to spare, make about 200 more(the more the better) and tightly packed together... try it again.. and keep doing it. Sooner or later the bottle will hold more air down below the water and at greater depths. This is the same principle with the mesh. The water has to PUSH the air through the mesh.... The greater the depth the greater the pressure (think of the ocean). So in a shallow tank like 10 or 20L's or even those 30 and 40 L's the area that is needed for the difusor is not as great... (about a 2" diameter should sufice...but a higher bubble rate will make more bubbles and need more surface area to disolve sufficiant ammounts).

In the 10 gallon I should have about 20ppm... I say should because I cannot realliably test the water right now. I have terrible green water in it( that algea eats up co2 fast!)... also I am filtering it with diatom filter today.. it will off-gas a lot of the co2. However I am at about 12bpm right now.. and that should get me a ph of about 7.2 with a kh of about 12. That is around +/-20ppm, allowing for errors. I could get more with a larger area (aroud 3" diameter) and more yeast in the mixture next time (i only use about 1/8 tsp--I don't measure sugar..just fill it to a line on the bottle--mixture lasts reasonably for about 10 days..then it falls off so I remix it..it pry could last 14 days but I don;t want co2 to drop off to greatly)

OK.. to sum up.. Netting would work.. but window screening is very cheap , and I think more durable since it is epoxy coated(if you went to a mom and pop store they pry would give you some scraps of it for nothing...BTW I bought 12 sq yards of it for about 2 dollars.. i think)

The difusion area is at the top.. where the water meets the mesh... underneath the mesh (where the bubble is) there will not be a lot of efficient disolving of co2 going on there... I would not think you would HAVE to cut the bottom out of the cup(maybe you don't want to use suction cups or can't get them.. and want to weight the device down with rocks.. then you need a bottom... I just designed mine to be small as possible. ...

Another quick suggestion... after starting a new mix...the new mix will produce co2..but has to squeeze out all the atmosphere gasses in teh line and bottle first(takes about 12 hours to do so usually from the time you start up the reaction --for me anyway)...so the next morning I take a tweezer or something else and disrupt the surface of the difussor.. then it will release all that non-disiraple air. this is NOT a nessary action since it will eventually be realeased by itself through time. But if you are really anal, like I am sometimes, and don't want to waste a micro gram of co2..then you can do this(if your mesh and device are well attached).

BTW... IM NEVER BUYING A LADDER AGAIN.. 

I am also waiting for someothers with bigger systems to try this out... I think the big thing is dispensing the co2 rich water around, that is why those power reactors are supperior in a big tank, when they are attached to the outlet of a filter. THe co2 rich water gets blown around the tank a lot more. I think that if you divert an out let to blow around or across this device that similar effect could be noticed. Also.. the device could be built into a longer square to fill in more area in back of the tank... or two could be used.. with a T-Valve...however, you would have to make sure that the both are at the exact SAME level in teh water.. otherwise one would get more bubble production that the other.

The best thing aout this device it is very safe... NO POSSIBLITY OF BACKPREASURE.. or the contents of your diy bottles getting sucked into the tank by a powerhead...like other systems.. and it costs really NOTHING...(less than 6 dollars for most people... and that is just for the mesh (ivestment for a lot of mesh) and the suction cups.


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## Bonsai (Jul 26, 2004)

Fedge - Great idea & excellent illustration.

I have a possible adaptation to that .... What if you get one of those "wide-mouth" plastic 1 liter soda bottles (e.g. Mountain Dew) and cut out the top of the lid (I think that the lid is about 2 inches wide - I'll check at the store tomorrow) and use it to screw tight the window screen? Everything else remains the same.


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## pufferfreak (Oct 19, 2003)

I just took a drinking cup and did this. I am seeing a big bubble in the top of the mess every day and night, I dont want it to get so much that it just burps and dont work. So I was thinking next time I re do my generator to take off the top mess and just have two layers. I will see how it works.


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## fedge (Mar 4, 2004)

I got a bubble in my 3" disk of mesh that I have NEVER seen burp... sometimes the gases you see are not ALL just Co2.. sometimes gasses from the tank replace the CO2 (nitrogen, oxygen, etc, ETC)


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## fedge (Mar 4, 2004)

I think this idea needs more people to test it out.. bigger tanks.. more co2 needs etc... Then maybe we can permenantly make it an article in the DIY. HOWEVER, before I jump the gun...I want to know how the high ammounts of CO2 will affect the window mesh material....If there is a better way, like hot glue, to attach the mesh (rubber bands will not last very long in aquarium that is sure). The pop bottle suggested would word OK.. but only for smaller ammounts of co2... or if you used more than one. If you could get a stainless steel top (threaded) with a ring that could screw down maybe that would solve a lot of problems.
NO suction cups needed, Easier to level, not as likely to rust or react.


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## dewcew (Aug 3, 2004)

*Going to try on 100 gallon tank*

Fedge,

Great idea. I am going to try it on my 100 gallon tank. Instead of using a cut bottle, I am going to try a piece of 3" PVC or 3" ABS. I am thinknig that a slip-joint connector should be the right length. 

Keep up the great work!

Dan


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## pufferfreak (Oct 19, 2003)

btw mines on my 55 gallon


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## Ironloach (Aug 30, 2004)

Just a thought, will this work with a foam (the one you stuff in filters) instead of a mesh?

I've noticed that the gravel-vacuum diffuser model uses foam to diffuse the CO2. Was just wondering if the same concept will work with Fedge's model.


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## Rolo (Dec 10, 2003)

Ironloach said:


> Just a thought, will this work with a foam (the one you stuff in filters) instead of a mesh?
> 
> I've noticed that the gravel-vacuum diffuser model uses foam to diffuse the CO2. Was just wondering if the same concept will work with Fedge's model.


 Pretty much anything that doesn't let CO2 bubbles go through, but would allow water to is doable. I have a very fine nylon fish net that works very well.


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## fedge (Mar 4, 2004)

That has been tried... read in the begining about the "fart"...i think foam would clog after awhile (co2 tends to cuase organisms like bacteria or algae colonies to grow rapidly--ones that use co2--they might clog the foam after awhile.) The mesh seems to be the best option it does not have enough surface nooks to facilitate growth. 

All my projects are still going strong...


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## Laith (Jul 7, 2004)

Very interesting idea! roud: 

I currenly use a Dennerle ladder. While I'm happy with it, I've been thinking about building a reactor to get even more efficient diffusion and to take up less space in the tank.

Does this idea work with pressurized CO2 as well? I don't see why not... :icon_bigg


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## donkey (Jul 13, 2004)

i was thinking instead of using screening material could you use a Gravel Tidy ? as over here in the U.K i have never seen any screening material .and how about using a cable tie instead of a rubber band .


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## fedge (Mar 4, 2004)

Cable tie...!! Yep that is why as a community we are stronger in ideas... thanks. I am uncertain what a "gravel tidy" is... But, the US english, and the UK english has a lot of differences.

Today I got my 3" disk to "burp"!! I squeezed the bottle (end of cycle yeast bottle) a tad and got a lot of bubbles to come out...


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## donkey (Jul 13, 2004)

Hi there fedge
a gravel tidy is a screening material that stops two diffrent kinds of gravel from mixing say like coral sand and coral gravel have a look here 

http://www.underworldproducts.co.uk...178&ACTION=DETAIL&item=0301&template=info.htm


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## donkey (Jul 13, 2004)

i would think that this would work fine for your diy difusor and it looks the same colour as the sand that i have in my tank .and it is all so safe to use in fish tanks . so people over here in the U.K could maybe try this if there having a problem getting hold of any screening material that you are using over there in the U.S.A


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## fedge (Mar 4, 2004)

Gee.. I don't see why they would... Don't you have window screens in your houses? Like in the summer?


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## donkey (Jul 13, 2004)

whats this thing you call summer? :icon_roll dont forget mate i live in England we dont get many of them ( lol )


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## fedge (Mar 4, 2004)

Ive never been there... I live where in summer it gets about 80 to 90 F and humity about 65 to 70% or more..most of the time...we run airconditioners all the time..


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## donkey (Jul 13, 2004)

wish i where there  but i do know what you mean about the screening doors you have over there . but you never see them over here .the weather is just not that good over here so we dont really need them


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## zapus (May 26, 2004)

*Fired my ladder*

Well, I decided to jump on the bandwagon. Whacked down a stainless steel coffee filter to fit in the back of the nanocube, jammed it in, and stuck the hose underneath. It could use one of those suction cup airline holders to hold it in place better, but so far, so good.


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## fedge (Mar 4, 2004)

************UPDATE**************

Today I bought me some more fish (stupid me)...anyway.

I kept hearing this weird "burp" sound. I looked and the 3" mesh system was burping out gas. HOWEVER, upon further inspection I noticed that my DIY co2 yeast system was outputting a lot of bubbles, about 30 per minute!! I did add a pinch more yeast in the mix this time. I guess it is a little too much. I wish i could scientifically measure the ammount of gas output, but I can't. None of the other systems have "burped" in this method to date...that I know of. I think if you make a long rectangular one instead of circular it may help (diffuse along a larger water column than just the circle in one spot)...it would also help if the disk were right underneath the output of a filter (blowing down on it or across it).

POST SOME UPDATES PEEPS>>>>


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## zapus (May 26, 2004)

The mesh on the stainless coffee filter may be too small, seems that it restricts water flow through it. Changed it out this evening for a filter bag that came with the cube, mesh size is slightly coarser than my fish net, but it seems to be holding CO2 ok.


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## Curare (Sep 15, 2004)

Hey everyone, (first post)

I built something very similar not that long ago, I used a piece of filter foam at the top of a small cylindrical clear plastic canister ( I didn't want to see it)

It worked a treat, but over time (say 2 months) the filter foam turned to absolute crud, A grey indistinguishable mass of stuff.

Not good for letting C02 out finely if you ask me.

I personally like the idea of the coffee bell, that sounds like a goer in small tanks.

BTW, Fedge you and I are in the same boat, I've got a 10 gal that's being over wrought by reddish ludwigia repens!

hehehe...


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## ThatNewGuy (Sep 8, 2004)

How about an unbleached coffee filter? those a re cheap


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## fedge (Mar 4, 2004)

UPDATES????

Most of mine seem to be working well.. seeminly. I sometimes neglect to change my DIY yeast and the ph crashes (the other way --UP)... but I have not seen anything visibly going wrong with the mesh and etc since I started... other than one in my 10 gallon had a little hair algae entangled in it (to be expected).


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## zapus (May 26, 2004)

I was having troubles with CO2 production and crashed my pH after switching yeasts. Fleishmann's doesn't seem to work very well for me when the room temp gets below 75 degrees and I killed off half my fish when I added some champagne yeast to the mix. Cherry barbs and serveral shrimp survived a drop below the 6.0 bottom peg on the test kit. Gelled media has slowed production to a more reasonable output for a 12 gallon tank.


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## skela (Sep 14, 2004)

hi fedge!
any pix we could see as it is installed in your 10g?

my tribe belongs to the big-time cheapo on this earth :tongue: and
i am also into experimenting CO2 diffusers...right now i have 2 DIY CO2 bottles in my 30g..one diffuses thru an airstone (my control) right in the mouth of my hob filter and the other one diffuses thru an airstone and thru a mesh siliconed at the bottom of a 'bottomless' 3" planting clay pot (my latest experiment)...the mesh is a recycled bag from the AC mini carbon insert..just one layer...siliconed at the inside of the pot...lucky me, i found a stainless steel ring that is bigger than the hole at the bottom of the pot that could hold the mesh snugly before i applied silicone...drilled a hole 3/4" close to the top of the pot for the hose to come in and plugged the hose with a stone diffuser (it also kinda locked the hose in its place)...inverted the whole assembly at the bottom of my 30g and it still seems to be working fine after 5 weeks...ph 7.2 during photosynthesis period

many thanks for your info about the epoxy coated window screen...i will try to make my second diffuser replacing the mesh with that kind of screen...and oh btw, attaching the mesh from the inside wall of your cylinder might solve the problem of sharpness and esthetics especially if you use silicone...the only odd thing with claypots is i can't see thru it unlike your clear cylinder :icon_frow


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## skela (Sep 14, 2004)

hi fedge!
any pix we could see as it is installed in your 10g?

my tribe belongs to the big-time cheapo on this earth :tongue: and
i am also into experimenting CO2 diffusers...right now i have 2 DIY CO2 bottles in my 30g..one diffuses thru an airstone (my control) right in the mouth of my hob filter and the other one diffuses thru an airstone and thru a mesh siliconed at the bottom of a 'bottomless' (i sawed it off!) 3" planting clay pot (my latest experiment)...the mesh is a recycled bag from the AC mini carbon insert..just one layer...siliconed at the inside of the pot...lucky me, i found a stainless steel ring that is bigger than the hole at the bottom of the pot that could hold the mesh snugly before i applied silicone...drilled a hole 3/4" close to the top of the pot for the hose to come in and plugged the hose with a stone diffuser (it also kinda locked the hose in its place)...inverted the whole assembly at the bottom of my 30g and it still seems to be working fine after 5 weeks...ph 7.2 during photosynthesis period

many thanks for your info about the epoxy coated window screen...i will try to make my second diffuser replacing the mesh with that kind of screen...and oh btw, attaching the mesh from the inside wall of your cylinder might solve the problem of sharpness and esthetics especially if you use silicone...the only odd thing with claypots is i can't see thru it unlike your clear cylinder :icon_frow


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## fedge (Mar 4, 2004)

I need to have updates on this "project", it definitly has been quite awhile now and if you are still using it successfully then I need to know. If you have abandoned the idea then tell about why.

I personally feel that this setup will work for almost any tank, but the size of the dispertion area has to be increased greatly for any tank over 20gallons. I would recomend using a cube (longer than it is deep) for such tanks. I think the limit for this system is anything over 30 gallons, however, I do not posses the means to test this (all my tanks are 29 gallon or under).

I am going to do a write up article about this design so that it can be posted here and elsewhere. I really need feedback to draw the proper conclusions about the co2 system. Thank you


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## zapus (May 26, 2004)

I'm still using it on the nanocube, which has built-in filtration behind a partition that provides good flow around the "bell". I gave up on the stainless steel coffee filter, though. I think the mesh on it is so fine that it restricts water flow. I'm currently using a mesh bag that holds the ceramic noodles that came with the 'cube as a bell, but have been thinking about switching to a fish net or something similar. Since it's out of sight, appearance is not a big issue.


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## fedge (Mar 4, 2004)

Good to hear.. but how well is it working.?

Have you changed anything from my "basic" design?


details....


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## motoman (Apr 29, 2004)

Hey Fedge, love the idea and I'm going to try it. What size screening are you using? Just plain good ol run down to the hardware store screen or is it really fine? Also where in your tank to you have your diffuser placed. I'm using an Aquaclear on my 20 gal and just wondering where I could place mine? It should be where lots of water flows right? thanks.


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## Badcopnofishtank (Jan 20, 2004)

Alternative to window screen: garden variety panty hose...they come in an assortment of colors too. I clamped some around my airstone and it works great...great thread by the way!


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