# ammania gracilis help needed please



## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Sorry Cheryl, I can not help with you're plant  I have never had it, but I did want to comment on you're tank's in you're sig...WOW,, looks very good!


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## observant_imp (Jun 30, 2004)

Thanks Craig. My shift from low light to high light is coming along nicely thanks to the pooled knowledge of the board. I'll be happy to send you some if I ever get it straightened out.

In rereading, I see I spent a lot of energy whining and forgot my current specs.

nitrate kept between 10-20 
phosphate kept between 1-2
temp 84
kh maintaine between 3 and 5
gh recently increased to 5 (it was down to around 3)
ph varies between 6.4 and 6.8
DIY CO2 (don't suggest pressurized--my bp still goes up when I think about the dupla kit I had in the early 90s)
lighting just under 5 wpg PC (note: I replaced a 60 watts of twin tube tritons with 192 watts of pc in january)


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## Gill Man (Feb 5, 2005)

Your specs look good, but in referencing Kasselmann's book, Aquatic Plants, she also states it is an indicator plant, for lighting and substrate nutrition. The leaves at the bottom turn black when the plant doesn't get enought light at the bottom and the substrate should be supplemented for good growth. Apparently, it is a root feeder, which would explain why it was good for a few months then declined. The thing about all these fancy substrates is that they wear out especially when you get a good root feeding plant in there. I have the same problem with mine, so now I know as well. So what's a good root tab that contains everything?


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## rayhwong (Aug 6, 2004)

Im having the same problem with my ammania too. I thought it was calcium deficiency but none of the other plants are exhibiting the same problem and my GH is 9-10. I dosed calcium and it had no change either. 
I will try putting some jobes plant sticks and flourish tabs below it.


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

I wouldn't say this plant root feeds at all, it's just like any other stem. I have it growing in PFS, with high light, CO2, and lots of ferts. It grows great and is pinkish orange. You must be missing a nutrient.


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## Gill Man (Feb 5, 2005)

Still, it doesn't get those conspicuous white "roots" at the leaf nodes like other stem plants, so it seems plausible that this could be the case. I added an errant root tab, I had rolling around in a drawer, to the center of my Ammania grouping as my FloraBase substrate is spent and and it's lackluster growth is far from robust, even with all the nutrients I add to the tank, and I mean ALL.


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

Gill Man said:


> Still, it doesn't get those conspicuous white "roots" at the leaf nodes like other stem plants, so it seems plausible that this could be the case. I added an errant root tab, I had rolling around in a drawer, to the center of my Ammania grouping as my FloraBase substrate is spent and and it's lackluster growth is far from robust, even with all the nutrients I add to the tank, and I mean ALL.


Mine has plenty of aerial roots. I don't add any substrate ferts and as I mentioned it is growing in PFS which provided no nutrients at all. Maybe you you will have good luck with the substrate fertilization.


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## Gill Man (Feb 5, 2005)

Mine have always been wierd and are always one scoop away from being yanked and flushed,  but they look so "gracilis" when they grow well...I'm giving them one last chance!


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## observant_imp (Jun 30, 2004)

Bob--I've seen pics of yours and it's beautiful! Can you share your water parameters (hard/soft/ph/etc)? I can't figure out why mine was doing so well and then turned to crud. If I have something to compare to, maybe I can figure out what's missing.

Could those of you having trouble also share your specs? Maybe we can see a pattern that will help us figure this one out. I hate to trash this plant--it's so nice when it looks good.


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

This plant is a hog in regards to nutrients, IME. I have some with A. reineckii and have the opposite problem. The A. reineckii hasn't grown much (still short and compact), while this plant has hit the surface of the tank (with a very thick stem). I was running the tank lean for awhile and noticed the change in coloration with this plant. As soon as I started dosing heavily again, it has grown like a weed and keeps the nice coloration (especially the micros). BTW, this is all done w/out root tabs.


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

observant_imp said:


> Bob--I've seen pics of yours and it's beautiful! Can you share your water parameters (hard/soft/ph/etc)? I can't figure out why mine was doing so well and then turned to crud. If I have something to compare to, maybe I can figure out what's missing.



Thanks. A compliment for me is a complement for the hobby. I don't think mine is that special but it seems to be growing well. Last I checked I was looking at kH 8, gH 8, pH 6.6, and 4WPG via shoplights. I have been adding KNO3, Flourish and Flourish Fe for the last few months. I started skipping the PO4 and haven't had any problems yet. 

It's been growing well for a few months now and I have to lop off about 4" from the bottom every week. It's going to be moving to a new 75G very soon so I'm hoping the extra height will allow me to go a few weeks between trimmings. I love the plant and it's color is very nice and unique, however, the leaves are quite large. They are pretty thin at about 1/2" but they are very long at 4-5". They may even get bigger if I would stop lopping them off every week..


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

I had that twisted/curled leaf problem for a while. It got corrected recently(a few weeks) and growing very well, too well, too fast for my taste(I started dosing Ca a few months ago). It took so long to recover that I am hesitant to say it is definitely Ca dosing. Possibly a recent change in tap water pushed it over the limit, my gh is now even higher than before, 17 after Ca addition. Along the same line, my ammania senegalensis is recovering as well from the same problem. Never used any root tab at any time. So far I have always been able to fix my plant problem through water colunm dosing, shucks, shouldn't have said that, I might jinx it.


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## FMZ (Jul 13, 2004)

Is this the plant you guys are talking about in the background??? If so I have it and its not doing so well either


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## lowcoaster (Dec 6, 2004)

I have had some problems in my holding tanks with A. gracilis. I recently changed the stock to another tank---it is right next to Alt. reineckii "Cardinalis". The tank is a 33 XL (shallow) with 4 watts per gallon. It is now doing fine. Not growing very quickly (which I am happy about), but nice color and tight leaves.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> Mine have always been wierd and are always one scoop away from being yanked and flushed, but they look so "gracilis" when they grow well...I'm giving them one last chance!


Same here. I bought this plant off the "scrap heap" at the LFS. I have had it bounce back, and subsequently slip away and come back. Really frustrating, yet beautiful plant.

Funny thing. I have had it in a bunch in my 75G for almost a year now. The plant seems to do its best when its roots grow through the Riccia and into the substrate than when it is just bunched and growing without rooting in the substrate. That could justify Gill Man's reference to Kasselmann.

Mike


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

Charlie welcome.

Mike, I rubberband 3 stalks of the gracilis together and haven't had any issues. It grows just as fast and healthy as ever. I do find it to be an extremely brittle plant for having stems so thick. Have you had the same observation?


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

The stems have never really seemed that way to me, they always seem a bit on the rubbery side.

Funny how the same plant grown under different conditions is so variable!

Mike


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

Momotaro said:


> The stems have never really seemed that way to me, they always seem a bit on the rubbery side.


same here.


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

Weird. Now when I say brittle, I mean sort of stiff. They don't bend much at all and if you push them to far they will snap with a satisfying "crunch" like a fresh stalk of celery.


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

Sounds just like mine. Really thick and brittle stems.


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

Brittle but healthy looking. The inside of mine are completlely white with a red core. The solid snap when they break can only mean they are healthy. At least in my eyes. Mine looks pretty good I would say.


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## Gill Man (Feb 5, 2005)

WOW! What perfect specimens! What and how old is your substrate? Just curious. Mine is depleted as I've had it for over a year. I've been adding a top layer onto it here and there where it's become shallow and I added a single root tab to the plant grouping. I've noticed an improvement this week but it's still too soon to tell. I still think Dr. Kasselmann's assessment on this plant is worth investigating, that they are root feeders.

I also found this paragraph from Water Plants 101- A basic introduction to the physiology and ecology of aquatic plants by Dave Huebert at: http://www.aquabotanic.com/wp101.htm



> Aquatic plants, unlike their terrestrial counterparts, can absorb mineral nutrients both from the water through their leaves and from the sediment through their roots. *Unfortunately, it is often assumed that rooted aquatic plants can obtain all their mineral nutrient requirements through their leaves. This is, however, incorrect.* As early as 1905 a researcher by the name of Raymond H. Pond stated that, " ... a soil substratum is requisite for normal growth." and that, " [rooted aquatic plants] make a better growth on a good loam soil, just as many land plants do." Since then, the dramatic and consistently superior growth of plants rooted in soil compared to plants rooted in sand has been shown repeatedly for many different aquatic plant species from many different types of habitat.


Again, given that many of our manufactured substrates get depleated of their nutrients over time, it might be wise to supplement a rooted plant once they begin to show a decline, even when supplementing the water column as we are doing. Time-release root tabs are not as archaic as I once thought them to be.


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

I have PFS that is about 6 months old. If you want to try the substrate ferts I suggest you try a jobe's stick for NPK.


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## observant_imp (Jun 30, 2004)

Myabe it's related to hardness. I'm nocticing that Bob's gh and kh are about double what mine is. I've upped the gh a little and tried putting a sera florenettte A tab under it (minerals plus trace--no phosphate or nitrate). The 2 newest leaves are looking better.


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

Mine look the same, with thicker stems. I can bend the stem 180degrees without snapping :icon_bigg


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

My stems have gotten pretty thick but it's hard for them to get really thick since I cut half the plant off every week.  You can bend your stem 180* and it won't break? Mine snap at about 40*. Interesting. Do you have any photos of your plant?


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

I am now also throwing away the tops to get smaller branches:









Yep, the stem can bend 180degrees, I paid for its Yoga lessons 
What's a root feeder? :wink: Take care of the water, and the water takes care of ALL the plants, not just the ones with root tabs underneath.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

This is a worst case plant I obtained less than a week ago. It is flowering from emersed growth, is floating with a weight strip with no roots to speak of. Looks like the new growth is great though. GH 6* KH 2.5*


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## sugar (Dec 27, 2003)

Ammania gracilis is typically a plant that will deteriorate when it does not find enough nutrients in the substrate. It can use roots above the surface to overcome the problem, but once the plant deteriorates it doesn't do that any more.

I have experienced exactly the same problem in my tank, it is the only plant causing me problems (it did quite well the first two years http://home.scarlet.be/~tvelst/sugar22.JPG). I added nutrients in the substrate and is taking a new start at the moment. ..



sugar


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

sugar said:


> Ammania gracilis is typically a plant that will deteriorate when it does not find enough nutrients in the substrate. It can use roots above the surface to overcome the problem, but once the plant deteriorates it doesn't do that any more.
> 
> I have experienced exactly the same problem in my tank, it is the only plant causing me problems (it did quite well the first two years http://home.scarlet.be/~tvelst/sugar22.JPG). I added nutrients in the substrate and is taking a new start at the moment. ..
> 
> ...


I have grown it in bare bottom tanks.


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## sugar (Dec 27, 2003)

shalu said:


> I have grown it in bare bottom tanks.


So the roots take nutrients from the water...

sugar


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

Is that a question?


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## sugar (Dec 27, 2003)

Overfloater said:


> Is that a question?


No, just a hypothesis

sugar


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

sugar said:


> No, just a hypothesis
> 
> sugar


In that case, I would venture to guess that they can.


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