# water hardness help



## barbarossa4122 (Jan 16, 2010)

Hi,

0 - 4 dH, 0 - 70 ppm : very soft
4 - 8 dH, 70 - 140 ppm : soft
8 - 12 dH, 140 - 210 ppm : medium hard 
12 - 18 dH, 210 - 320 ppm : fairly hard
18 - 30 dH, 320 - 530 ppm : hard

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/khgh.html


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## sepehr (Oct 6, 2010)

Hum, general hardness is at 220 ppm and the PH at 6.5? Is that even possible? Most tap water have a PH of +7.


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

are you running co2?


here is an article you migth find helpful: http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/khgh.html


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## Brian3 (Jan 14, 2008)

it is possible. GH dont interact directly as KH with pH

GH General Hardness
KH Carbonate Hardness
pH number of H+ in water

I think you have Hard water with low KH and PH

Still you can have rams but if you want to reproduce it I will down that GH. Use a water softener for that purpose. 

If the problem was high GH and high pH then you need a water softener and some chemical to down the pH still is better to use a RO filter. For you a DI or a Softener filter is better is more cheap.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

i will probably have DIY CO2. the tank is a 20 long by the way. 

im pretty sure the pH is 6.5 unless ive been reading the test strips wrong this whole time...

is there something i can add, to soften the water?


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

API GH and KH drop test kits are cheap and fairly reliable. 
18 - 30 dH, 320 - 530 ppm : hard = concrete LOL


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## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

The only way to safely reduce the hardness for planted tanks is to cut your tap with RO water.

Water softeners exchange calcium and magnesium ions for sodium ions, which isn't good for plants and sodium sensitive fish.

Think of your tap's hardness as rocks in a bucket. You want to remove the rocks in the bucket to lower hardness. Think of any chemical you add to water as marbles. It only replaces the rocks with something else, which doesn't really help a whole lot. Now think of RO water as a bucket with no rocks. So take half the rocks from the first bucket and add it to the second bucket. You now have half the hardness you did before, because RO water is "pure" water.

Does that makes sense? It does to me, but then again I already know what I mean...


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

that makes sense, but it is simply not possible for me to get a R/O system. im sure id use it, LOTS because my orchids would also appreciate it, but its out of my budget.

what about almond leaves? i heard they did something, althought im not exactly sure what


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## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

Most grocery stores sell RO water by the gallon. That's were I get mine, anyway, for 39 cents a gallon.

Indian almond leaves won't lower your gH. I use them, and I like them quite a bit, but they are marbles because they only buffer the water.

Sorry, but there isn't any real shortcuts to reducing gH that work well. If you have no other options, then it's best to just learn how to deal with what your tap has to offer. Your water's hardness is great for livebearers, for example. But if you want to breed and raise soft water species, you're going to have to cater to them a bit.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

what will they do then? i may have them anyways, because they look cool. i dont know that id want to start with r/o water. if i can get away without using it, it would be WAY better


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## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

Most people use indian almond leaves to lower pH. It works great for that due to tannic acid, which it's rich in. They can easily make black water, so if you want to use them, soak them for a few days first (unless you like black water).

Yup, it's much easier to figure out what works with your tap. Learned from experience, because where I used to live, nothing seemed to adjust to the well water we had. With my current tap and it's softer water, it's a huge weight off my shoulders.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

lucky you have softer water! 

someone said earlier i can keep them, but they probably wont spawn. spawning would be a nice benefit, but if there isnt a good way to soften the water, i guess its not an option for them to spawn


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## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

They may spawn if they are happy, but the eggs need a certain water chemistry to develop correctly. GBR are gorgeous, hardy fish. They should adapt just fine to your water. roud:


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

The reality of hard water is removing mineral content is the the only way to soften it. All else is snake oil (imo). Lower the pH yes you can but water hardness lowered without using RO or distilled for ratio dilution I never found a way to date and quit looking.


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

You really need to get a better idea of your water chemistry before you get too worried. The generic water report in this area may not be an accurate representation of your water. You may be able to pretreat water in a bin (wiht peat/almond leaves, etc) to mix with your tap and get you to a more neutral zone. I have been breeding south americans in our source water for years.


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## Brian3 (Jan 14, 2008)

People we are mixing hard water with high pH. pH is controlled by Carbonate Hardness mainly, you will see more KH= more pH, im speaking in general, pH can down by CO2 inyection. When we are talking about dissolved solid or General Hardness we are talking about Calcium and Magnesium. The things we use to down pH dont low GH. to low GH you need RO filter as I mentioned or a resin to absorb these nutrients. I know that a resing can add sodium to water, still i used resins for aquariums on the filter to soften the water and I dont see negative effects. Still if we want to go in the 100% safe way we need RO water or Distilled water, there not are any other way to soften the water.

Now for down the pH we can use peat, almond leaves, CO2, etc. in fact all they produce Acid. but 6.5 seems right to me. A RO filter is what you need is the cheaper way in the long run, or buy RO water or just go with the resin.

Products to down pH like Acid buffer dont work for soften the water

Soft water doesnt mean low pH.


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

I agree 100% but the thing is, he doesn't even KNOW what his water chemistry is. I live in the same area. My gh is 6, kh is 7-8. Its very possible to breed most south americans in that chemistry. His generic verbal report from a lady on the phone at the water company is not enough information to really know what he needs to do at this point. 

Also, in regards to his existing low pH, is he running co2? What substrate? It may not be an accurate representation in that regard either.

Another point is that the majority of domestic fish do just fine in even hard water, its the wild caughts that seem to have a more difficult time.

RO cut with tap is definitely the best way to reduce hardness, but with his projection of 220 ppm "hardness", most fish will do just fine.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

msjinkzd said:


> I agree 100% but the thing is, he doesn't even KNOW what his water chemistry is. I live in the same area. My gh is 6, kh is 7-8. Its very possible to breed most south americans in that chemistry. His generic verbal report from a lady on the phone at the water company is not enough information to really know what he needs to do at this point.
> 
> Also, in regards to his existing low pH, is he running co2? What substrate? It may not be an accurate representation in that regard either.
> 
> ...


when you say _most_ fish, are blue rams included in that?

i will be using DIY co2 in the tank. the ph in my ten gallon ( with diy co2) is 6.2 ( about ) and the tap is 6.5

do YOU do anything to change your water chemistry? 

brian3- the lady told me i could get the calcium and magnesium ppms, i didnt think it was relevant, so i didnt ask her to find them. but i can call back and get them, if they would be helpful


now that i know my hardness isnt "unacceptable" for at least keeping blue rams, ill probably get a test kit.


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## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

Brian3 said:


> People we are mixing hard water with high pH. pH is controlled by Carbonate Hardness mainly, you will see more KH= more pH, im speaking in general, pH can down by CO2 inyection. When we are talking about dissolved solid or General Hardness we are talking about Calcium and Magnesium. The things we use to down pH dont low GH. to low GH you need RO filter as I mentioned or a resin to absorb these nutrients. I know that a resing can add sodium to water, still i used resins for aquariums on the filter to soften the water and I dont see negative effects. Still if we want to go in the 100% safe way we need RO water or Distilled water, there not are any other way to soften the water.
> 
> Now for down the pH we can use peat, almond leaves, CO2, etc. in fact all they produce Acid. but 6.5 seems right to me. A RO filter is what you need is the cheaper way in the long run, or buy RO water or just go with the resin.
> 
> ...


I wasn't. I was specifying what people use indian almond leaves for, and I did expressly say that it doesn't affect gH. Hence the marbles. Sodium ions fall under "marbles" as well.

pH is extremely complex. There are many factors that control pH, from carbonates, to carbonic acid, to lime, to vigorous aeration. 

I've seen negative effects from using softened water via sodium. It can stunt plant growth by removing too much calcium and magnesium. My corys failed to thrive in such water, and died off because of it. Obviously, not all fish are so sensitive, but mine were. It took a good deal of time and pure RO water reconstituted with Ca and Mg to bring my tank back around.


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## Brian3 (Jan 14, 2008)

Okay I now understand you

well if the point is that he has the same KH that you then he has high pH too so the pH 6.5 is from some type of acid like you say CO2 maybe is bringing that pH down.

Well RO filter corrects all that problems still i only use it for spawning or for soft water plants.


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## Brian3 (Jan 14, 2008)

orchidman said:


> when you say _most_ fish, are blue rams included in that?
> 
> i will be using DIY co2 in the tank. the ph in my ten gallon ( with diy co2) is 6.2 ( about ) and the tap is 6.5
> 
> ...


I has blue rams on 7.0-7.6 pH water with Hard GH and 8 dKH and they are fine. Just if you want they for reproduction really get a RO filter. If not, your water is good. Most of this fishes are reproduced so tey are different of the wild caught rams. Just like Discus. If you get Wild caughted Rams then you need to be very serious about water parameters.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

i am about 40 minutes away from msjinkzd. and i think he has well water, while i use united water. so our water wont be exactly the same. 

the pH of 6.5 is STRAIGHT from the tap. the pH in my ten gallon with DIY co2 is 6.2 (about)


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

Brian3 said:


> I has blue rams on 7.0-7.6 pH water with Hard GH and 8 dKH and they are fine. Just if you want they for reproduction really get a RO filter. If not, your water is good. Most of this fishes are reproduced so tey are different of the wild caught rams. Just like Discus. If you get Wild caughted Rams then you need to be very serious about water parameters.


we must have posted at the same time,. i didnt see this.

that was really helpful! and encouraging  thanks

msjinkzd- i cant remember what you said, are the blue rams you _might_ be getting this spring wild caught?


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## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

You should invest in a test kit. It will tell you (more or less) what you're at with your water. How close or far away you are from the source does play a role in your water chemistry. It may not be overly important in the long run with hardy fish like GBRs, but it will give you an idea what exactly you have.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

msjinkzd said we lived in the same area, and i wanted to clarify that it did NOT mean we had the same water chemistry. 

ill get a test kit, if i ever get some money


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

would this be suitable?
http://www.lnt.com/product/test-kit...maceuticals-5-in-1-test-strips-25-strips.html

it says it tests ph, nitrate, nitrite, gh, an kh


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

I dont' like test strips. I got wildly different results, especially wtih hardness and ph, when using test strips vs. liquid kits.

I do have well water, which i am sure is different than your municipal supply but the majority of the folks in this area (both well and municipal) have about the same readings (moderately hard water) until you get up near the mountains or much further south.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

can you recommend a specific test-kit then? preferably something for around the same price  TIA


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

orchidman said:


> can you recommend a specific test-kit then? preferably something for around the same price  TIA


I'd recommend the Sera gH kit (~$10)

I've used water softener pillows before and I've never noticed an issue with the plants or fish. The only negative thing about them is that they wear out rather quickly and need frequent recharging/changing.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

http://www.lnt.com/product//11442-5...cals-freshwater-hardness-gh-kh-test-kit.html#

how about this? pretty good price, might be able to get 20% OFF AND free SHIPPING


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

nope, the 20% off doesnt apply to this item


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## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

That's what I use. When the gH test reagent got old, it stopped working (it failed to change color). Also, when testing, I found it works best if you wrap the tube in a white paper towel, that way you can just open the cap and look down into tube and tell for sure just what color it is.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

thanks! ill probably get this..


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## Brian3 (Jan 14, 2008)

I use API products too. Just when you have the money buy the kit and also buy the phosphate test. They last for years. I use a lot Nitrate and Phosphate test so they are the first to go empty.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

will do!


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

Here you can get the gh/kh kit for $5.50 or so


> GH&KH TEST KIT:
> THIS IS EXCELLENT FOR TESTING GENERAL HARDNESS AND CARBONATE HARDNESS IN FRESHWATER. MONITORING HARDNESS CREATES LESS STRESS ON YOUR FISH.
> FOR PHOTO:
> GH&KH TEST KIT $5.49 EACH


http://www.kensfish.com/testkits.html


Master kit is about $21 (no gh/kh) and the pro one is $60 (has ALL the good stuff)


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

msjinkzd said:


> Here you can get the gh/kh kit for $5.50 or so
> 
> 
> http://www.kensfish.com/testkits.html
> ...


i think those jungle brand kits kind of are not very accurate, they always gave wrong results, pets mart uses these in our areas. API is much better and accurate.


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

um, i was linking to the api gh/kh test kit (for somereason couldn't link to JUST the individual kit), not the jungle test strips. Its further down the page. Hnece the master kit costing $21 and the pro costing $60


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

yeah, if you scroll down on the link he gave, there are the api test kits


thanks for the link by the way


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

he is a she 

And no problem!


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

im SO SORRY!! your avatar threw me for a loop!


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

orchidman said:


> im SO SORRY!! your avatar threw me for a loop!


Bob thinks we're all dudes unless we have "girly" avatars, LOL!


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

sorry *blushes* i actually thought it was msnjkzd in HER avatar. i thought that was a guy with a huge mohawk, in her avatar.


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

msjinkzd said:


> Here you can get the gh/kh kit for $5.50 or so





msjinkzd said:


> http://www.kensfish.com/testkits.html
> 
> 
> Master kit is about $21 (no gh/kh) and the pro one is $60 (has ALL the good stuff)




Is it just me, or does $60 seem crazy when I can buy it all separately for $31 ($27 if I don't need both high and low PH)?


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

that is crazy!


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## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

Betta Maniac said:


> Bob thinks we're all dudes unless we have "girly" avatars, LOL!


LOL, I'm probably sending the wrong vibes then too. :hihi:

Another she, right here :icon_smil


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

OMGOODNESS!! haha, im soo bad at this! i think its me ;D and i was beginning to think "wow there are a lot of guys here "


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

it is me in my avatar, I just happen to have a huge mohawk. This pic might clarify things for you, lol


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

am i embarrased!!!! im so VERY sorry.


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

no worries


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

was there a monsterfishkeepers thing happening?


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

I work for MFK and AC. I was at the catfish convention this past year giving out free t-shirts and manning the site booth.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

cool! must have been fun!


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## mattycakesclark (Jun 11, 2010)

Correct me is I am wrong, but you can ask your water provider what your alkalinity is, as carbonate and bi-carbonate "hardness" are the majority contributor to alkalinity.
Might be wrong tho.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

someone is giving me an api gh and kh test kit. so i will check it when i get it. ill let y'all know


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

I got gH kH and pH test kits today. the real ones, not the strips. so ill check my tap and tank. then ill report back


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

okay! so how yellow is "bright yellow"? if i have it correctly, than here is the results. if anyone would like to share a picture of just how yellow it should be...

tap- gH-6 drops-107.4
-kH -6 drops-107.4
- pH - between 7 and 7.2

Tank- gH-6 drops-107.4
- kH-6 drops- 107.4
- pH- between 6.8 and 7

i thought kH and pH were directly porportional


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

Any ideas? 
are the levels too high to keep GBRs, as is?

what are your readings msjinkzd?


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

should be just fine. I would consider your water neutral and stable


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

sweet!  this is very relieving! so do you think its neutral enough to attempt breeding GBRs or should i just stick with keeping them?


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

Your TDS would give teh answer for sure, but I would think so


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

yay  its at least worth a try. 

i dont think i would be able to test my TDS, because i dont have a TDS meter. but its worth a shot


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

msjinkzd said:


> it is me in my avatar, I just happen to have a huge mohawk. This pic might clarify things for you, lol


I'm a member of GWAPA, I've never seen you at a meeting, I think I would have remembered.


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

I have never been to GWAPA, just PVAS and CCA. There is typically alot of overlap. I did last GWAPA meetings group order although Jim (from Rockford, new member) delivered it to the meeting  That photo is from sitting in at booth they had set up at this past Catfish Convention. Typically they are set up near CCA, where I am on the board or in teh same room as the MonsterAquariaNetwork, where I am a supermod.


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

msjinkzd said:


> I have never been to GWAPA, just PVAS and CCA. There is typically alot of overlap. I did last GWAPA meetings group order although Jim (from Rockford, new member) delivered it to the meeting  That photo is from sitting in at booth they had set up at this past Catfish Convention. Typically they are set up near CCA, where I am on the board or in teh same room as the MonsterAquariaNetwork, where I am a supermod.


Oh, I see. It was assumption on my part, since the picture had a GWAPA sign in it.


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

I wish the meetings were typically closer but since I already travel to CCA, ACLC, and occasionally PVAS, as well as to NYC to pick up import orders on the weekend- its just a bit much to ask of my children 
I am hoping to eventually host a GWAPA at my home and speak to the club. I have talked to Viktor and Jen about it.


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

msjinkzd said:


> I wish the meetings were typically closer but since I already travel to CCA, ACLC, and occasionally PVAS, as well as to NYC to pick up import orders on the weekend- its just a bit much to ask of my children
> I am hoping to eventually host a GWAPA at my home and speak to the club. I have talked to Viktor and Jen about it.


Yeah, that's a lot of driving. If you host a meeting, I'd try to make it. I don't mind road trips once in awhile. Seeing all of those critters would be interesting. I would buy a few as well.


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