# Monte Carlo massacre.



## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Anyone have any advice?
Is this just normal melt 3-4 weeks after planting?


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## Aquarium_Noob (Dec 9, 2017)

I'll be interested to hear what others reply. I had a similar issue with this plant and s. reopens in a high flow region. For me it seemed to have been very high nitrite levels, probably different for you though.

After the nitrite was under control the plants bounced back. Unfortunately the monte carlo was decimated and wasn't able to recover.

Have you tried replanting some of the good new growth. Perhaps it's an acclimation issue?


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

What fertilizers are you using? What are the parameters or your tap water and tank?


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## Aquatic Neurotic (Oct 22, 2017)

My monte carlo was beautiful when first put in my tank, then it went through a period of looking bad (I would say worse than your pictures) and I thought it was all gonna die, then it bounced back and now is a thick, full carpet (though I did have to trim a bit of staghorn algae off of it the other day.)


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

It "looks" as though you stirred up the substrate and the monte carlo got dirty and hence the result of the browning and such


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Thanks everyone for the replies, still struggling with this being an issue.



Aquarium_Noob said:


> I'll be interested to hear what others reply. I had a similar issue with this plant and s. reopens in a high flow region. For me it seemed to have been very high nitrite levels, probably different for you though.
> 
> After the nitrite was under control the plants bounced back. Unfortunately the monte carlo was decimated and wasn't able to recover.
> 
> Have you tried replanting some of the good new growth. Perhaps it's an acclimation issue?


Noob, it could easily be Nitrites. I am still in the cycling period and the nitrites are rather high, it is sunday so water change day at least. Is there a top measurement of Nitrites I shouldn't pass during the fishless cycle? Perhaps this is my issue?
I have trimmed all the good bits and replanted now yes, this hopefully will pan out as well. Who knows?! haha



Surf said:


> What fertilizers are you using? What are the parameters or your tap water and tank?


Tap
Ph - 8.4 ish
Kh - 3
Gh - 15
No ammonia nitrite or nitrate

Tank
Ph- 6.5 ish
Kh - 6 after being buffered with bicarb
Gh -15
Mid cycle, Ammonia added for bacteria development, Nitrites are high, don't think Nitrates have even developed yet.



Aquatic Neurotic said:


> My monte carlo was beautiful when first put in my tank, then it went through a period of looking bad (I would say worse than your pictures) and I thought it was all gonna die, then it bounced back and now is a thick, full carpet (though I did have to trim a bit of staghorn algae off of it the other day.)


I have heard about this die off period, it just seems that some of it had no way of bouncing back. The entire plant, roots and all had rotted. I have replanted the nice sections however and am hoping they will take. Tank in a state of disarray currently.



StrungOut said:


> It "looks" as though you stirred up the substrate and the monte carlo got dirty and hence the result of the browning and such


Potentially, but those pictures were taken after my frustration had gotten the better of me and I began ripping up the seemingly lifeless MC areas. Some dirt is present yes, but the melting leaves were nothing to do with this.

Thanks for the help everyone I do truly appreciate it, hope this info maybe gave someone more of an idea. Nitrites could easily be the culprit I have realised now, any advice feel free.

Cheers
Jamo


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

> Tap
> Ph - 8.4 ish
> Kh - 3
> Gh - 15
> ...


No mention of a fertilizer. If you don't does fertilizer you could be deficient in any of the 6 factor elements or any of the 8 micro elements plants need to grow.Plants can utilize ammonia for nitrogen but I don't know if they can use nitrite. 

Since you did add ammonia to your tank the initial growth may have been from the plants utilizing the ammonia and the limited amount of nutrients in your tap water. Now that those are gone a plant die back could happen. 

Otherwise the water parameters you have listed are fine.


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## JusticeBeaver (Oct 28, 2017)

How much ammonia did you add though?


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## Aquarium_Noob (Dec 9, 2017)

Jamo33 said:


> Noob, it could easily be Nitrites. I am still in the cycling period and the nitrites are rather high, it is sunday so water change day at least. Is there a top measurement of Nitrites I shouldn't pass during the fishless cycle? Perhaps this is my issue?
> I have trimmed all the good bits and replanted now yes, this hopefully will pan out as well. Who knows?! haha


During some of my plants 'meltdown', I posted on TPT. 
The replies commented on how my nitrites were. Although my Nitrites had consistently been 2ppm (the max of the test) they were likely much higher. It was suggested that I do a large water change, ~75%. After doing so, waiting a day, I retested: my levels were still =>2ppm. After another very large water change my nitrites were lower. My impacted plants stopped melting and the cycle soon completed after this. 

Perhaps this could be the culprit. Or maybe its a combination of this as well as some fert deficiencies as @Surf suggested. Although @Aquatic Neurotic didn't mention whether the MC went through cycling, they did have success whereas I did not. My suggestion should probably be taken with a grain of salt


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Surf said:


> No mention of a fertilizer. If you don't does fertilizer you could be deficient in any of the 6 factor elements or any of the 8 micro elements plants need to grow.Plants can utilize ammonia for nitrogen but I don't know if they can use nitrite.
> 
> Since you did add ammonia to your tank the initial growth may have been from the plants utilizing the ammonia and the limited amount of nutrients in your tap water. Now that those are gone a plant die back could happen.
> 
> Otherwise the water parameters you have listed are fine.


Oops, apologies. Yes I am dosing NilocG dry ferts EI method. 
By my calculations I am probably a tad over the EI suggestions as well, it being so hard to get exact amounts for such a small tank. 



JusticeBeaver said:


> How much ammonia did you add though?


I am keeping ammonia at around 2ppm. I thought this was the method to allow the Nitrogen cycle to finish without losing the bacter that turns ammonia into nitrite, they need the ammonia to feed off. 



Aquarium_Noob said:


> During some of my plants 'meltdown', I posted on TPT.
> The replies commented on how my nitrites were. Although my Nitrites had consistently been 2ppm (the max of the test) they were likely much higher. It was suggested that I do a large water change, ~75%. After doing so, waiting a day, I retested: my levels were still =>2ppm. After another very large water change my nitrites were lower. My impacted plants stopped melting and the cycle soon completed after this.
> 
> Perhaps this could be the culprit. Or maybe its a combination of this as well as some fert deficiencies as @Surf suggested. Although @Aquatic Neurotic didn't mention whether the MC went through cycling, they did have success whereas I did not. My suggestion should probably be taken with a grain of salt


I have just completed a large water change to reduce my Nitrite down to under 1... I think I was upwards of 3, maybe even 5 so not a good amount I am sure. I am getting impatient with this cycle, it has been more than a month now.

Please can someone clarify what I should do with the cycle. Continue to add ammonia, or completely stop until Nitrates begin to show? 

I really appreciate all the help everyone, truly!
Jamo


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## JusticeBeaver (Oct 28, 2017)

Jamo33 said:


> Oops, apologies. Yes I am dosing NilocG dry ferts EI method.
> By my calculations I am probably a tad over the EI suggestions as well, it being so hard to get exact amounts for such a small tank.
> 
> 
> ...


I was going to suggest either ammonia burn due to high ammonia or possibly burn due to dry dosing and poor circulation. Personally I think that once your ammonia hits zero, you should stop dosing ammonia until your nitrites have also hit zero.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Okay so I should stop with ammonia and wait until nitrates pop up. Sounds like a plan! I am hoping the MC will bounce back after this and create a nice full carpet. 
Point of clarification, when I dry dose I mix all the ferts in a shot glass with tank water prior to adding. So I'm not dropping anything directly onto the plants  

Also really hoping this cycle ends as my desire to get some shrimp in is building rapidly. Or some chilli rasboras first actually.

Thanks all
Jamo


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Isn't this your setup with Aquasoil? You added ammonia as well?


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

houseofcards said:


> Isn't this your setup with Aquasoil? You added ammonia as well?


Hey house,
Yea I actually had to. There was no registered ammonia. I waited and waited, testing daily but no ammonia spike and definitely no start to a cycle. I had read that just having aqua soil in the tank will cycle the tank, but I couldn't see it happening without any ammonia leeching from the soil.
Once again, house please inform me of my wrong doings and stupidity. I do want to do this right, just didn't want to half ass and kill a ton of fish and shrimp like I always have in the past.


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

> Oops, apologies. Yes I am dosing NilocG dry ferts EI method.
> By my calculations I am probably a tad over the EI suggestions as well, it being so hard to get exact amounts for such a small tank.


For the EI method Your GH is more than sufficient. However when you see levels this high it is sometimes mostly calcium with little to no Magnesium. Some people have experienced magnesium deficiencies in this case. but it is difficult to know for sure. Now you could add epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) to see if that helps. But that will increase your GH even more which might not be a good idea. 

also potassium sulfate is listed as option in the EI method. You might want to try adding that. While it won't add magnesium it will add sulfur. While sulfur is not included in many fertilizers it is a critical plant nutrient. And none of your water test will not detect it. chlorine is another nutrient that is also frequently left out of fertilizers. If your water utility is using chlorine or chloramine to sterilize the water you should have enough. But some utilities are switching to ozone and or UV for sterilization.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Jamo33 said:


> Hey house,
> Yea I actually had to. There was no registered ammonia. I waited and waited, testing daily but no ammonia spike and definitely no start to a cycle. I had read that just having aqua soil in the tank will cycle the tank, but I couldn't see it happening without any ammonia leeching from the soil.
> Once again, house please inform me of my wrong doings and stupidity. I do want to do this right, just didn't want to half ass and kill a ton of fish and shrimp like I always have in the past.


That doesn't sound right with AS. There's always a ton of ammonia at startup. Possibly something was wrong with the test kit? I would take that or some other error over the FACT of not having any ammonia in aquasoil. I do believe you burnt the MC between the ammonia in AS and adding even more. 

With AS and EI dosing this is not at all fert-related. I have grown full carpets of HC, Glosso, Hairgrass in AS without adding anything and my water is soft kh 2 gh 4. The vast majority of plants like soft water and MC is not very demanding. Any fert needs are easily satisfied through the AS, EI and tap. Don't let anyone tell you theirs not enough Mg and Ca for MC, that's just bunk and inexperience. EI and ADA both define parameters for their tanks as soft.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

houseofcards said:


> That doesn't sound right with AS. There's always a ton of ammonia at startup. Possibly something was wrong with the test kit? I would take that or some other error over the FACT of not having any ammonia in aquasoil. I do believe you burnt the MC between the ammonia in AS and adding even more.
> 
> With AS and EI dosing this is not at all fert-related. I have grown full carpets of HC, Glosso, Hairgrass in AS without adding anything and my water is soft kh 2 gh 4. The vast majority of plants like soft water and MC is not very demanding. Any fert needs are easily satisfied through the AS, EI and tap. Don't let anyone tell you theirs not enough Mg and Ca for MC, that's just bunk and inexperience. EI and ADA both define parameters for their tanks as soft.


Interesting, well I completely believe you. Perhaps early on I did mess up the tests or they aren't in great shape, but I will stop adding ammonia now and let the tank cycle. Funnily enough actually, last night I went to test all parameters and the tank is down to 0,0,0. I still am not understanding how this is possible, no Nitrates after feeding the tank with ammonia?

Either way, thanks @houseofcards. I will be adding some shrimp and fish soon, chasing after some micro rasboras and cherry shrimp. I am actually not seeing anymore melt from the MC, seems to be bouncing back a little now, new growth coming through. Hopefully it comes back into the form it was in, growing rapidly and healthy, time will tell.


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