# A lighting dilemma ???



## Deedledee (Sep 13, 2016)

I know this topic has probably been addressed somewhere in these 1118 pages of lighting topics, however I am currently at my wits end trying to find a definitive answer to the question : " Do LED lights cause excessive temperature increases " ?
I have been battling with Hagen Canada for a while now because my new Fluval Flex 32.5 gallon aquarium is consistently 80 degrees or higher ! I DO NOT have a heater in this aquarium. I emailed Hagen, as they are the distributor for Fluval in Canada. I have been getting the "run around" being told by their customer service rep that my led lights are causing the temperature increase. Hmmmmm, I have been experimenting with that theory by leaving my lights off for extended periods of time, with no difference. So I naturally assumed that it must be the submersible pump that is creating the high temperatures. The latest correspondence with them again states it's most likely the led lights, even though Fluval recommends an additional light strip if one wishes to grow anything more than moss or java ferns !! Needless to say, this is getting quite frustrating ! I currently have my aquarium heavily planted with Tropica tissue cultures, all in the medium light/C02 category, so decent light spectrum is critical for their development. Since I setup this aquarium 4 weeks ago I have never had the lights over 50 % output, so I can't even imagine how hot things will get in warmer months, or when I ramp up the light intensity !! I am curious to know if there are other people on this forum with similar issues with LED lights ? I have been reading a lot about leds and I just can't justify the high temps, especially when the lights do go off at 6:00 pm, the temp is still holding at 80 degrees at 8:00 am ,before lights come on, so that's a concern. I welcome any thoughts on this subject ! Rant over ....


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## Leeatl (Aug 8, 2015)

I use Beamswork LED's and have never noticed them adding to the heat of the water . I do have pc fans blowing over them but that is to extend the life of the lights and keep them running cooler than without the fans . I would say that the pump is what is adding to the heat . Can you feel the pump and see how warm it is ?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Deedledee said:


> Hmmmmm, I have been experimenting with that theory by leaving my lights off for extended periods of time, with no difference....


Trust what you found. Though water is pretty good at holding heat it is not THAT good.
most LED heat goes UP not down though photons other than Infrared can excite and produce heat..


I have little regard for most CS people ..sad to say.

Anyways that top is pretty restrictive though but the light is only 21W.
Is there a wall wart to run it? I assume the power supply is NOT in the hood.


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## Deedledee (Sep 13, 2016)

I am now convinced this is an issue with the lid/light combo. The light fixture is extremely close to the surface of the water & must be contributing to the consistent high temperatures. Once again I did NOT choose wisely when I purchased this aquarium. I foolishly believed it was going to be the perfect aquarium for my space, but after doing further research into this Fluval kit, I have come to the conclusion that this setup is not designed for long term success. Lesson learned ! It was nice while it lasted :-(


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Do you have a means of measuring the temperature right outside of the tank?

I keep my house set at 73 degrees during the summer. We just moved in last year and this past summer was our first summer in this house. I was surprised to learn therefore that even though my thermostat was set at 73, the temperature where the tank was located was actually 78 degrees. Just not good airflow in that area I guess. Anyway it would be interesting to test the temperature near the tank (like with an infrared temp gun) to see the difference. 

I'm surprised that a pump would put out that much heat though if there is a big difference. Frankly even 1 degree seems like a big jump from just a pump. My Fluval Spec V certainly didn't have any noticeable heat coming from the pump. In my vivarium (completely enclosed tank) the LED lights add a solid 5 degrees when on. But all that temp bleeds off by the next morning. That tank has no standing water in it though /shrug.


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## Deedledee (Sep 13, 2016)

minorhero said:


> Do you have a means of measuring the temperature right outside of the tank?
> 
> I keep my house set at 73 degrees during the summer. We just moved in last year and this past summer was our first summer in this house. I was surprised to learn therefore that even though my thermostat was set at 73, the temperature where the tank was located was actually 78 degrees. Just not good airflow in that area I guess. Anyway it would be interesting to test the temperature near the tank (like with an infrared temp gun) to see the difference.
> 
> I'm surprised that a pump would put out that much heat though if there is a big difference. Frankly even 1 degree seems like a big jump from just a pump. My Fluval Spec V certainly didn't have any noticeable heat coming from the pump. In my vivarium (completely enclosed tank) the LED lights add a solid 5 degrees when on. But all that temp bleeds off by the next morning. That tank has no standing water in it though /shrug.


Yes, I keep a barometer on the shelf next to the aquarium. It is very accurate. It measures not only the temperature of the room, but also humidity. My condo is very constant with temperature ,always around 74 degrees, so for the aquarium to climb up to the low 80's ,says it has nothing to do with ambient room temperature? I am really starting to think its the led fixtures, as they sit almost in the water, but it makes no sense how the water maintains those high temps after the lights have been off for over 12 hours ! So far my plants, fish, and shrimp are managing with these temps, but I do worry about the warmer summer months, as I set up this aquarium just 4 weeks ago when things were cooler, so time will tell. Thanks for your input


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Deedledee said:


> Yes, I keep a barometer on the shelf next to the aquarium. It is very accurate. It measures not only the temperature of the room, but also humidity. My condo is very constant with temperature ,always around 74 degrees, so for the aquarium to climb up to the low 80's ,says it has nothing to do with ambient room temperature? I am really starting to think its the led fixtures, as they sit almost in the water, but it makes no sense how the water maintains those high temps after the lights have been off for over 12 hours ! So far my plants, fish, and shrimp are managing with these temps, but I do worry about the warmer summer months, as I set up this aquarium just 4 weeks ago when things were cooler, so time will tell. Thanks for your input



Sounds like a collection of things inc lights and pump. 

Also no mention of if it gets any window light of any kind.




Could go so far as to suspect microwaves from somewhere.. LOL.


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## Deedledee (Sep 13, 2016)

jeffkrol said:


> Sounds like a collection of things inc lights and pump.
> 
> Also no mention of if it gets any window light of any kind.
> 
> ...


There is a window near by, but sunlight doesn't hit the tank, so nope ! 
I guess in time I will see if there are any risks to the plants & livestock .


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## Griznatch (Nov 9, 2020)

You could try to elevate the light a few inches. I did on my tanks and it helped cut back on algae and spreads the light out better. I don't have issues with my lights heating up the tanks however..


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## Deedledee (Sep 13, 2016)

Griznatch said:


> You could try to elevate the light a few inches. I did on my tanks and it helped cut back on algae and spreads the
> light out better. I don't have issues with my lights heating up the tanks
> however..


I wish I could raise the lights, however this is an integrated hood system & it is not a possibility.


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## Deedledee (Sep 13, 2016)

@jeffkrol,
Thanks for those links. I saw them last week, but I did some further research & it doesn't sound like those fans work too well. From what I have seen I think I would need to put 3 -4 fans along the back, but the lid cutout isn't going to cooperate ! Gotta chalk it up to another Fluval design flaw. When will I ever learn ???


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Deedledee said:


> @*jeffkrol*,
> Thanks for those links. I saw them last week, but I did some further research & it doesn't sound like those fans work too well. From what I have seen I think I would need to put 3 -4 fans along the back, but the lid cutout isn't going to cooperate ! Gotta chalk it up to another Fluval design flaw. When will I ever learn ???



Replacement hoods are $32 soo you might think about modifying the hood .. Drilling a row of holes above and along the LED should have enough passive venting..
along w/ one or 2 front holes.
Drilling holes in thin plastic can be an issue..

Most heat is back and up and there is no IR direct heating so it shouldn't be too difficult.
I'd not rule out replacing the current pump either though.
Sicce synchra silent seems to be a direct replacement.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fluval-flex-owners-experience-mods-advice.769251/


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## nickandjess2008 (Jul 4, 2020)

So, I was having this problem a while back. Here is what I found after exhaustive research on LED lighting.
LED have a problem with temperature, that is to say that they get really hot, so, what I did was this:
I went onto Amazon and bought a little fan made by a company called AC Infinity. It was $18 for a little "muffin fan" (go to amazon and type in muffin fan and they come up first)and I just sit in on my H.O.B. filter and aim it at the lights and it keeps them cool. I also bought a little speed controller for it, too, and I put it to a timer that is the same time schedule as the light itself. It keeps 5 different LED lights cool to the touch. It uses less than 5W watts of power and it doesn't cool down the water either. I also have a tank with a pump in it, but, it doesn't produce any heat that I have noticed at all. Also, it looks like there is a little area in the front right that opens up to feed the fish? If so, you could set a fan on top of that with it open and the fan would suck out the heat. These little fans have a "mounting kit" that comes with them and you could actually screw it to the hood, that would be what I would do, if it was me. It seems to me that not having a hood on has helped a ton with the problem I was having. Might be worth a try? I have had one fish jump out over the last 3-4 years, but, I also have different fish than you. I can't tell what you have. If there is a vent on the hood, sitting the fan on top of it may help, too. I am not %100 sure of what the aesthetics you are going for because that is a personal thing that differs widely from person to person. I didn't mind getting rid of the hood, so, it wasn't a problem for me. Mine are also in the basement, so, they aren't ever seen by other people.
From what I could find out about LED lighting, I understood this, the LED's produce a lot of heat and that heat will eventually destroy the LED's. I have 5 lights on a single tank, but, they are all at about %50 or less. That way, they don't get too hot and die before their time. I spent about $30 to keep my $150 running as long as possible. Seemed like a good investment to me. I like the lighting aspect of planted tanks and I have done a lot of different experiments with different lighting styles. I keep my tanks at 77'ish and my house is at 68 degrees. The LED's don't seem to affect the water temperature too much and I have an open top on all my aquariums. As I said above, I keep the lights at %50 or less, but, I do realize that not everyone can afford to have multiple lights on their tanks and I would suggest to keep the lights at %75'ish, if you can. If you can afford it, I would get a couple lights on top and keep them all at %50'ish, but, I do understand not everyone can afford to do this. I consider lighting to be one of the most important aspect of planted tanks and I believe you shouldn't skimp on them if possible.
This is all just my opinion, though and I am SURE others will disagree with me. If you do, that's fine, just please don't be nasty about it. Thanks and good luck to all!
I am trying to add pics, but, I can't figure out how to do that, so, sorry. I think if you go to my page on here, there are pics of the whole aquarium and you might be able to see the fans, but, my pics are upside-down and it might be more trouble then it is worth. 
Here are links to the fans that I bought:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009OXSFBA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 $17.99
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009OXTWZI/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 $17.99
Here is the speed controller for them:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00809BQZG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 $14.99

I would get the smaller of the 2, the other is a little large for my tastes. These are really nice fans, imho. They seem like they are made solid and made well and it seems like they're made to last, too, but, it is ultimately your call. I don't know if you can find them much cheaper than this. You can get cheap Chinese ones, but, I know nothing about them, I won't pretend to be an expert on tiny fans. Type in DIY fans and a ton of them will come up. *Gorgeous *tank, btw! Sorry, I rambled a lot in this post, but, I _really _hope this helps! Good luck!


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## BOTIA (Dec 23, 2003)

Deedledee said:


> I wish I could raise the lights, however this is an integrated hood system & it is not a possibility.


This is my fivestar 16G with a jebo 828,11w turbo twist co2 etc..
I cut out the flip open top and integrated the led strips into the lid so they could cool properly. My tank has no heater and I live In Canada. Between UVS and light say tank stays at 78 a touch higher in the summer , UVS goes on at night only in the summer.
Led's need venting if have anything more than low light power levels. Led's will also last a lot longer if run cool. I use a laser infrared temperature gun for checking temps , allows to spot check water surface temps at diff levels , led housing etc . This will give a better idea of what is going on.


This top has two Nicrew high output full spectrum 18W strips mounted (36w total) Over 16G yes it will grow anything)


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## Deedledee (Sep 13, 2016)

@BOTIA,
Thanks for that info. I won't be doing any cutting or drilling my canopy. My husband is not happy with the way this is headed, and if I wish to remain married I will try a different approach ! It took a long time to convince him about this new setup, he was "onboard" until I started complaining about the high temperature. After talking to lots of other Fluval Flex owners, it is really looking like I will have to remove the second Aquasky & hope the plants I already have will continue to grow successfully ? Nice to see someone from my home town ! I am on the Sunshine Coast now, but N.Van will always be home


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## Deedledee (Sep 13, 2016)

@nickandjess2008
Thanks for the detailed reply ! I have been looking at various fan options on Amazon. It is my understanding that if one wishes to lower the temperature in an aquarium my size, I would need to buy 3-4 of those fans. I was really hoping to find a solution without modifying my hood to the point it was totally cut up and ruin the design, which is the reason I bought this aquarium in the first place. Also I would like to add that in the almost five years that I have been a member of this group, I have never offered any negative feedback. We are all here to learn about our experiences, and share them with those who happen to stumble across our posts. Thanks again for your ideas


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## BOTIA (Dec 23, 2003)

Deedledee said:


> @BOTIA,
> Thanks for that info. I won't be doing any cutting or drilling my canopy. My husband is not happy with the way this is headed, and if I wish to remain married I will try a different approach ! It took a long time to convince him about this new setup, he was "onboard" until I started complaining about the high temperature. After talking to lots of other Fluval Flex owners, it is really looking like I will have to remove the second Aquasky & hope the plants I already have will continue to grow successfully ? Nice to see someone from my home town ! I am on the Sunshine Coast now, but N.Van will always be home



it is always a battle having LED lights, growing plants, and having those sleek low profile tops...


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## Deedledee (Sep 13, 2016)

BOTIA said:


> it is always a battle having LED lights, growing plants, and having those sleek low profile tops...


I know ! I always get lured in with the newest Fluval kit, but 9 times outta 10 there is some kind of design issue ! I have decided at this point that I am done with Fluval. Hopefully I won't need to replace this 32 gallon, however another problem with this particular Flex line is the fact that many just self implode due to the extremely thin glass & the bow front. Common sense will direct me away from these blunders in the future ! Time will tell I guess :wink2:


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## nicepoeci (Sep 23, 2020)

Its mostly because the top doesn't allow much heat or humidity to escape for my fluval flex. Pretty nice that i dont need a heater as I do for all other open top aquariums.


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## Deedledee (Sep 13, 2016)

nicepoeci said:


> Its mostly because the top doesn't allow much heat or humidity to escape for my fluval flex. Pretty nice that i dont need a heater as I do for all other open top aquariums.


Yes that's true. Virtually no evaporation! I don't use heaters in my other 2 flex aquariums either.


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## nickandjess2008 (Jul 4, 2020)

Deedledee said:


> @nickandjess2008
> Thanks for the detailed reply ! I have been looking at various fan options on Amazon. It is my understanding that if one wishes to lower the temperature in an aquarium my size, I would need to buy 3-4 of those fans. I was really hoping to find a solution without modifying my hood to the point it was totally cut up and ruin the design, which is the reason I bought this aquarium in the first place. Also I would like to add that in the almost five years that I have been a member of this group, I have never offered any negative feedback. We are all here to learn about our experiences, and share them with those who happen to stumble across our posts. Thanks again for your ideas


My 20 gallon only has 1 small fan on it and my 10 has one on it, too. I would think that at the most you would need two, maybe? 
Also, I didn't mean you offer negative feedback, sometimes others do. Yes, it isn't the norm, but, has happened to me before. That is why I mentioned that. Good luck to you! Again, beautiful aquarium!
My wife wasn't too happy with the amount of money that I ended up spending on this hobby as a whole, either, so, I feel you on that one...Really not happy with me about that! oops.....


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## mourip (Mar 15, 2020)

+1 for venting holes and/or a small "muffin" fan. One way or another too much heat is building up under that very closed hood.

You could also try leaving the feeding port open to see if that helps or use it to place the muffin fan over. If you elect to use the fan I would have it pull air out, not push air in.

Plan B might be to lose the hood entirely and buy another light. You will then have an open top tank of course.

Nice scape!


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## Deedledee (Sep 13, 2016)

@mourip
I am definitely leaning towards the fan idea. There are no shortages of small muffin fans on Amazon. Removing the existing canopy is not an option, as this tank replaced my former open concept aquarium, and I swore I would not make that mistake again ! Thank you


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## hlca (Nov 13, 2020)

Deedledee said:


> I have been reading a lot about leds and I just can't justify the high temps, especially when the lights do go off at 6:00 pm, the temp is still holding at 80 degrees at 8:00 am ,before lights come on, so that's a concern. I welcome any thoughts on this subject ! Rant over ....


Our Twinstar 600E does get warm when it's on. So it is obviously going to increase the surrounding temperatures. Simple conservation of energy. But your statement above about how your tank stays at 80 degrees even when the lights have been off for 14 hours makes it clear there's something else at play other than your lights. Can you borrow a thermal camera? You can see the heat distribution in different spots in a room.


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## Deedledee (Sep 13, 2016)

hlca said:


> Our Twinstar 600E does get warm when it's on. So it is obviously going to increase the surrounding temperatures. Simple conservation of energy. But your statement above about how your tank stays at 80 degrees even when the lights have been off for 14 hours makes it clear there's something else at play other than your lights. Can you borrow a thermal camera? You can see the heat distribution in different spots in a room.


Yes it is frustrating ! Fluval refuses to believe the pump would give off ant significant heat, so it's not easy finding an answer. No, I don't have access to a thermal camera. The quest continues....


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## SardinePatheNews (Nov 12, 2019)

my shrimp tank has no heater and runs above ambient constantly, left the light off for 3 days and nothing changed so i figure it must be all down to the pump motor


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## Deedledee (Sep 13, 2016)

SardinePatheNews said:


> my shrimp tank has no heater and runs above ambient constantly, left the light off for 3 days and nothing
> changed so i figure it must be all down to the pump motor


Exactly! That's what I've been saying all along, but everyone keeps saying " It's your led lights " 
I'm no scientist, however I do know that water doesn't hold heat,so if lights are off for several hours & it's maintaining a toasty temp, then it is NOT the lights !


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Deedledee said:


> Exactly! That's what I've been saying all along, but everyone keeps saying " It's your led lights "
> I'm no scientist, however I do know that water doesn't hold heat,so if lights are off for several hours & it's maintaining a toasty temp, then it is NOT the lights !


 Splitting hairs....




> Water has the highest specific heat capacity of any liquid. Specific heat is defined as the amount of heat one gram of a substance must absorb or lose to change its temperature by one degree Celsius. For water, this amount is one calorie, or 4.184 Joules. As a result, it takes water a long time to heat and a long time to cool. In fact, the specific heat capacity of water is about five times more than that of sand. This explains why the land cools faster than the sea.


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## BOTIA (Dec 23, 2003)

Deedledee said:


> Exactly! That's what I've been saying all along, but everyone keeps saying " It's your led lights "
> I'm no scientist, however I do know that water doesn't hold heat,so if lights are off for several hours & it's maintaining a toasty temp, then it is NOT the lights !


Mostly likely a combo of light and pump. My 16G has a huge jebo 828 canister filter and turbotwist uvs. The canister definitely adds some heat and but more so the UVS .


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## Deedledee (Sep 13, 2016)

jeffkrol said:


> Splitting hairs....


There you go getting all scientific on me ,lol:laugh2:
I believe there is some truth to that theory, but on a larger scale perhaps ? 
This is what is actually happening now in my aquarium. 
I have not used a heater in this aquarium since setting up over a month ago. Stable room temperature of 74 degrees. No doors or windows open.Concrete building.
When I get up at 8:00am the morning the temperature is regularly at 79 degrees ,so the lights have been off since 6:00 pm.I monitor the temp throughout the day & will see a slight increase of a couple degrees by noon. As the day progresses, the temperature continues to rise, until it reaches a maximum temperature of 83. I have experimented with the lights, leaving them off entirely for a 24 hour period & the results are the same. Yes, I do use 3 different thermometers to ensure I am getting an accurate temp reading. I have maintained all along that the pump is the main culprit, but many opinions differ. The final conclusion I believe, is that I just have to accept this is the way it's going to be. I think for now it is manageable, but will have to resolve it in the summer months when the room temperature heats up ?? 
Thanks again to everyone who has taken the time to weigh in on this topic :smile2:


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> I have experimented with the lights, leaving them off entirely for a 24 hour period & the results are the same.


so pump, ambient light or radioactive decay (well plant decay).. Your choices


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## BOTIA (Dec 23, 2003)

Deedledee said:


> There you go getting all scientific on me ,lol:laugh2:
> I believe there is some truth to that theory, but on a larger scale perhaps ?
> This is what is actually happening now in my aquarium.
> I have not used a heater in this aquarium since setting up over a month ago. Stable room temperature of 74 degrees. No doors or windows open.Concrete building.
> ...



I have a 33 gallon pond on my deck , with a mag 350 pump. I keeps the pond from freezing even in my cold snowy Canadian Winters


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## Deedledee (Sep 13, 2016)

BOTIA said:


> I have a 33 gallon pond on my deck , with a mag 350 pump. I keeps the pond from freezing even in my cold snowy Canadian Winters


Hahaha, I was born & raised in North Van. Cold and snowy is a bit of a stretch !! Being a true West Coaster I suppose anything lower than 10 Celsius is freezing by our standards:laugh2
I would definitely worry about raccoons on the patio, more than a little cold water !


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