# Rimless Dutchy



## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

​
For those that have followed my 75g Dutch Weed Farm journal, you've probably seen me mention this rimless tank a few times. Its been exactly 11 months since I purchased this tank, it was never my intentions or plan to wait as long as I did to get it set up. But life got in the way and I kept putting off purchasing the last few items needed to get it up and running. 

One major difference between this setup and every other tank I've setup is, I decided to go with an inert substrate. My original plan was again to use AS, but as I got closer to actually setting up the tank I started to waffle on my decision. Don't get me wrong, I like AS but I hate the mess and as it gets older it only gets worse. With all that said, I made the finally decision and went with BDBS for this build.

I started bright and early Saturday morning, first order of business was the black vinyl background. I went with a product from Vivid Vinyls, this stuff is actually used to wrap cars. The best part about this product is, it is super easy to remove any air bubbles trapped under it since it has micro channels which allows the air to be pressed out without much effort, 

The vinyl all installed! All and all it probably took about half hour to complete, this includes spending a good amount of time making sure the glass is squeaky clean.


Next I placed a 1/4" of BDBS in the bottom of the tank and added some O+, then added another 2.5" on top of that. 


It was finally time to added some water, I had it about 1/3 full when I noticed something I didn't like at all. For those that have not had a rimless tank before, you need use a foam mat or something of the sorts under the tank. The mat relieves any pressure points that can eventually cause the tank to fail, be it a crack or a seal that lets go. What you are looking at below is the left side glass panel not sitting on the foam at all. So with that, out came all the water and all the sub went back into buckets. Which pissed me off because I had the O+ balls perfectly set below about 2.5" of substrate. I'm hoping that them being scattered throughout the entire depth of the sub will not cause me issues in the long run. I figure if I just push them down to the bottom when ever I see one pop up, will keep things in check. Its always something!



*Equipment*
120cm x 50cm x 50cm (48" x 20" x 20") AquaFire Rimless tank. ~83gal
Aquatop CF500uv canister filter
SunSun 304B Filter (not installed yet)
DYI 3" x 28" reactor
Pressurized Co2. On an hour and a half before lights on and off an hour before lights out. My pH drop is about 1.4 before the light come on a drops a further .2 an hour into the photoperiod for a 1.6pH drop.


Under the cabinet still needs to be organized.



*Lighting *
Four bulb T5HO horticultural fixture
Bulbs from left to right, 
6500K 
Actinic 420 (blue)
PowerVeg 633 (red)
2700K (yellow)



Current Macro dosing is 25N-7P-30K weekly. I front loaded half the weeks total right after I added the plants and will do the second and third dose Tuesday and Thursday.

Micros are roll my own dosed 4 times a week.
Fe .2ppm
Mn .05ppm
B .073ppm
Zn .05ppm
Mo .00175ppm
Cu .001ppm
Ni .0005ppm

So far I am loving BDBS. For those that have never planted in this stuff it is night and day compared to AS. Plus the fact that you can move things around all day long and not have to worry about creating a dust storm. 

I'm super excited about this whole setup and I look forward to a new learning experience using inert substrate. Aquasoil can easily hide your dosing errors, or at least delay the the issues, not so much with an inert sub. Thanks for following along.

Final money shot!


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Its about time you got this bad boy up and running!  Looking sweet already


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Holy Smokes it's finally here.

And it looks like it was worth the wait. Great looking tank.

As usual, plants look healthy and well presented. 

And glad to see you went with BDBS. Now I can pick your brain more on dosing.

Any idea of the PAR at the substrate??


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## Hendy8888 (Mar 6, 2008)

Awsome start to a tank, I'm sure I will be begging for some of your trimmings soon enough. Love the bulb combo too, always wondered what an actinic would bring to a planted tank.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

That's one heck of a Frankenstein'd regulator! What's your bps look like? A tornado stream? 

And are you happy with the reactor? No bubbles in the tank? Doesn't make much noise?

Anything other than plants in there?


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Looking great! Excited to follow along on this one!


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Yet another nail in my "buy a rimless tank already" coffin. 


Looks great!


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

burr740 said:


> Its about time you got this bad boy up and running!  Looking sweet already


Tell me about it.... Also thanks for taking the time to chat and answering all my questions.



Greggz said:


> Holy Smokes it's finally here.
> 
> And it looks like it was worth the wait. Great looking tank.
> 
> ...


Thanks Greggz. Who are you kidding, I'll be picking your brain!

I will be getting my hands on MCFC's seneye PAR meter, I'll post some numbers for sure.



Hendy8888 said:


> Awsome start to a tank, I'm sure I will be begging for some of your trimmings soon enough. Love the bulb combo too, always wondered what an actinic would bring to a planted tank.


Speaking of awsome, your current build is pretty spectacular! Anything you see in my tanks you are interested in let me know. 



MCFC said:


> That's one heck of a Frankenstein'd regulator! What's your bps look like? A tornado stream?
> 
> And are you happy with the reactor? No bubbles in the tank? Doesn't make much noise?
> 
> Anything other than plants in there?


bps, what the hell is that?  

I still have some fiddling to do. The Co2 for the 75 comes on an hour and half before lights on and I normally get around a 1 to 1.2 drop before the lights turn on. Yesterday I had a peek at the pH monitor on the new tank and I was down a full 1.7 drop in 45 minutes. I'd say I am happy with that! 

Not a single bubble at all. I have a gate valve on the outflow of the reactor (can't see it in the picture) which I close about 1/3rd of the way. My understanding, it's suppose to create just enough back pressure to help dissolve the Co2 into the water. 

As for noise, there is a very slight gurgling sound, which I can only hear when the cabinet panels are off.



Grobbins48 said:


> Looking great! Excited to follow along on this one!


Thanks and glad you'll be following along.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

slipfinger said:


> bps, what the hell is that?
> 
> I still have some fiddling to do. The Co2 for the 75 comes on an hour and half before lights on and I normally get around a 1 to 1.2 drop before the lights turn on. Yesterday I had a peek at the pH monitor on the new tank and I was down a full 1.7 drop in 45 minutes. I'd say I am happy with that!


I would ask what you have your flow meter set to, but I don't think that'd get me very far either... 

How do you dial in your CO2? Get a rough visual with the bubble counter and then use the pH monitor to fine tune it?


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

MCFC said:


> I would ask what you have your flow meter set to, but I don't think that'd get me very far either...
> 
> How do you dial in your CO2? Get a rough visual with the bubble counter and then use the pH monitor to fine tune it?


Nothing too scientific..... No flow meter. I'd like to get one at some point. 

I am not a fish keeper. Which makes things super easy when messing with Co2

I strictly go by pH drop, I aim for a minimum of 1 full point drop in pH. Currently the drop on this tank is 1.7. I don't think any tank needs that much of a drop and a waste of Co2. I will dial that back until I reach about a 1.2/1.3 point drop and start watching the tank for any sizes of lack of Co2. I run my 75 on 1.2 drop and have never seen issues because of lack of Co2.

Bubble counter is just there for a quick visual to make sure Co2 is on. To be honest the counter is usually empty anyways.


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Cloudy water today, I think I'm dealing with little new tank syndrome. So, I fired up the new SunSun with a bag of seeded media from one of my filters running on the weed farm. Probably should have done this in the first place. 



Hygrophila corymbosa ‘dwarf’ is quickly turning red, I'm thinking its the stronger lighting compared to the lower lighting in the 40gal grow tank these came out of. When I added it to the tank on Saturday it was completely green. 

Anyone have any other guesses?

This was taken yesterday at 4:30pm


Today at 4:30pm


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

slipfinger said:


> Hygrophila corymbosa ‘dwarf’ is quickly turning red, I'm thinking its the stronger lighting compared to the lower lighting in the 40gal grow tank these came out of. When I added it to the tank on Saturday it was completely green.
> 
> Anyone have any other guesses?


I think you are right it's the light. 

I just put two higher PAR bulbs covering the front of my tank, and mine are doing the same.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

slipfinger said:


> Nothing too scientific..... No flow meter. I'd like to get one at some point.


I can’t seem to keep water out of mine, but when it works it’s nice to have  





slipfinger said:


> I am not a fish keeper. Which makes things super easy when messing with Co2



No livestock at all? No cleanup crew? Is it going to stay that way? 

What kind of iron do you use in your micro mix? 

Where did you get your powerveg lamp? And do you mind saying how much it cost?

Thanks for putting up with all my questions! You’re one of the first Canadians I’ve found with a similar high-tech Dutch lean  



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

MCFC said:


> I can’t seem to keep water out of mine, but when it works it’s nice to have
> 
> No livestock at all? No cleanup crew? Is it going to stay that way?
> 
> ...



No live stock other then pest snails that came in on the plants from my farm tank. No plans for fish at this point. I have cherry shrimp in all my other tanks and i'll probably throw some in this tank once its cycled. TBH I've never needed a clean-up crew, I'm the clean-up crew! :grin2:

11% dtpa Fe. I mix my own micros, I just got a new batch of dry micros from @burr740. 

I order the PowerVeg lamps through my local hydroponics shop (Homegrown Hydroponics), they are not cheap, $49.99. You being in BC should be able to get these things on every street corner!

Ask as many questions as you want, we're all here to learn a little and hopefully help a little.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Did you get that 11% fe from Joe or do you get it locally? I can only find 7% fe here and I think there’s something funky with it. 

What kind of container do you store your solution (solutions? Do you mix one for npk too?) in? And how do you do the actual dosing? I’m trying to find a better system than my current one  

I’m in the middle of nowhere BC, so must stuff has a decent shipping tax added to it 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

MCFC said:


> Did you get that 11% fe from Joe or do you get it locally? I can only find 7% fe here and I think there’s something funky with it.
> 
> What kind of container do you store your solution (solutions? Do you mix one for npk too?) in? And how do you do the actual dosing? I’m trying to find a better system than my current one
> 
> ...


I believe I got it from The Plant Guy, but I think he is sold out atm. Send him a message on FB. 

I store my solutions, Micros and Macros separate, in rubbermaid juice containers. They come in 500ml 1000ml and I believe 2000ml sizes and are cheap at wallymart. 










As for dosing, Marcos are dosed 3 times a week. Half my weekly totals are front loaded right after my water change (Sundays) and the other half is split between two other days of the week, usually Wednesday and Friday.

Micros will be dosed 4/5 days a week in the rimless. 

I can not take credit for my current dosing schedule, burr suggested I give it a try.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

How much are you adding per dose? And how do you get it from the container into your tank? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

MCFC said:


> How much are you adding per dose? And how do you get it from the container into your tank?
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I use Rotala Butterfly to calculate all my dosing.

Current Macro dosing is 25N-7P-30K weekly. After water changes I add 15ppm N, 4.2ppm and 6.8ppm K. The other two doses get 5ppm N 1.4ppm P and 3.4ppm K per dose. The K calculation might seem off but that amount is taking into account the K in the KNO3 and KH2PO3 to get to my weekly totals of 30ppm. 

The below ppm are totals per dose, I dose this 4 times a week. 
Fe .2ppm 
Mn .05ppm
B .073ppm
Zn .05ppm
Mo .00175ppm
Cu .001ppm
Ni .0005ppm

I'll dig out @Greggz current dosing spread sheet and post here with my info for anyone interested.

As for getting into the tank from the container, I use mini measuring cups. My largest dose is after water change which works out to be 60ml, each micro does in 10ml. But you can add how ever much you want just throw the numbers into Rotala Butterfly.


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## RedGrey (Sep 12, 2018)

Gorgeous setup!

Any chance you could provide a plant list? Or a map.


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

RedGrey said:


> Gorgeous setup!
> 
> Any chance you could provide a plant list? Or a map.


Here ya go.

​
1 - Hygrophila corymbosa ‘dwarf’
2 - Proserpinaca palustris (Mermaid Weed) 
3- Pogostemon ‘erectus’
4 - Eriocaulon King Crimson
5 - Alternanthera reinechii ‘mini’
6 - Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'Curly'
7 - Lobelia Cardinalis ‘small form’
8 - Bacopa ‘caroliniana’
9 - Myriophyllum Tuberculatum Red “?”
10 - Hygrophila ‘siamensis 53B’
11 - Hygrophila ‘araguaia’
12 - Rotala macrandra 
13 - Pogostemon helferi
14 - Blyxa japonica
15 - Ambulia ‘gaint’
16 - Penthorum sedoides
17- Alternanthera reinechii ‘regular’
18 - Alternanthera ‘rosanervig’ 
19 - Eriocaulon Hainan Island
20 - Nymphoides hydrophylla 'Taiwan'


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Always love posts like that with the plants labeled. 

Should be done more often. I am sure it is very helpful to many, myself included. 

That Ludwigia inclinata Curly and King Crimson are both very interesting. Heck, they all are.

Come to think of it, maybe I shouldn't read posts like that. 

My collectoritis is already out of control, and that don't help much!:grin2:


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Figured I do a quick up date since I will be away all weekend for Canadian Thanksgiving.

Lets start off with a FTS.

​
Overall everything seems to be doing pretty good. A few plants are getting a little GSA, mainly Lobelia and AR mini. I spent a few minutes and picked off all the badly effect AR leaves, Lobelia I'll let it runs it course.



Ambulia is doing something pretty weird. One of the stem actually looks like it started to convert to emersed growth. For the record I literally pulled this out of the 75 walked across the room and stuck it into the sub of the rimless, it was probably out of the water all of 30 seconds. One of the other stems looks like its not happy either, it has lost all of its colour but the tip is still green and growing.

If you look closely, that is not the stem you are looking I am actually holding one of the 'leaves' with the tweezers. 





Ammannia gracilis was not happy for the first day or so, but it has turned around and is now looking good.





Hygrophila corymbosa 'compact' is so red. I don't think I've ever seen it like this in the 75, even when I was at 150 par at the sub.



Also I want to thank @MCFC for sending me a few plants along with his Seneye Reef PAR meter. I tried to get it up and running so I could get some quick reading of the tank but for some reason the software is not cooperating for me. On a side note, why in hell does this company not support Mac? 



Finally why not throw a picture of the messy 75 for old time sake. 

​


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Meant to post this with my last post, but i hadn't transferred the picture to Flickr yet.

I'm not much of a testing guy but wanted to keep a closer eye on this tank to see what is actually happening, since i'm a kinda winging it and all when it comes to this inert substrate game. 

Ammonia readings. I do not have fish so I'm not to worried atm. Plants should suck it up and of course once the BB in the filter catch up it should zero out. I'd suspect the ammonia is coming from the O+, I questioned @burr740 about this and he has not seen a major spike due to O+ in his tanks. I wouldn't consider this a major spike at this point. I'll keep an eye on and do another water change if it starts to climb any higher.



Phosphates. I'd like to see this a little higher, might be the reason I'm seeing GSA on some of the plants. Its still early times, with the tank still cycling I'm probably going to see some things I don't like. 



EDIT: 1/2 tsp of KH2PO4 and we are back around 5ppm. I'll test again tomorrow to see what happens with it. (pic makes it look darken then it actual is)


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

That Hygro compact is in shock from transplanting, it's not gonna stay like that...I dont think. Be cool if it did!!

Your crassicaulis gives me hope because mine so far has sucked. Couple of days ago I moved a few from aquasoil to a sand tank to see if it does any better


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

out of curiosity whats your kh/gh? Ca/Mg? tempted to give ammannia a try again


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

burr740 said:


> That Hygro compact is in shock from transplanting, it's not gonna stay like that...I dont think. Be cool if it did!!
> 
> Your crassicaulis gives me hope because mine so far has sucked. Couple of days ago I moved a few from aquasoil to a sand tank to see if it does any better


Ya would be pretty cool, but I need more green plants in this layout. It better start transition back soon or its going to get a stern talking to.

Ya crassicaulis/Ammannia looks like complete ass in my 75. Not as bad in my lower light 40 with AS and less ferts. 





SingAlongWithTsing said:


> out of curiosity whats your kh/gh? Ca/Mg? tempted to give ammannia a try again


KH = 5 
GH = 7

Latest water report says;
Ca = 35ppm
Mg = 9ppm

I had it growing decent in my 75 a long time ago, then one day it just went for a shat.


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Quick up date since its been a while. 

Over all things are going ok. I can tell that I have a lot to learn when it comes to dosing and balancing this tank............. Maybe its just new tank syndrome, but I've had some sort of algae in the tank since about the first week. GDA on the glass, GSA on the Lobelia, BBA on the AR and Eriocaulon King Crimson. I'm hoping it has to do with the tank cycling and me being away last weekend for 4 days, home for two and away again for another 4 days. Nutrients has been a bit all over the place because of my absences. I did a quick test just before I left last Thursday and I'm pretty sure the tank has cycled already because of using seeded media in the filter, so I hope I have jumped over that hurdle. 







Back to Front.. Ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrates.


I was able to throw the PAR meter in the tank for all of 5 minutes, not surprised I am anywhere from 100 to 120 Par at the substrate. I'll spend some time this week and post some pics of the actual readings. 

My travel is done for a while, which means I can focus on getting the nutrients on track and consistent.

FTS.


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Again its been way to long since i've posted an update.

​
Still a little algae here and there, staying on top of it by trimming effected leaves, cleaning the glass and a couple quick water changes per week. I still have some BBA which I find really weird with the tank being so new and all. Co2 has been consistent since day one, dropping about 1.3 points before lights on and staying there until it turns off, so not thinking that is the issue. Planning to clean the filter on the weekend, just in case that is the issue. Could just be from remnants that came in on the plants out of the 75. 

Another issue, and I'm not even sure if its an issue is slightly cloudy water or at least it seems like cloudy water to me. Its hardly noticeable to the eye but it seems to show up a few days after a water change. I've tried running the UV light and its doesn't seem to make a difference. Anyone experience this or have any ideas? 

A few plants are doing better then I've ever see in any of my tanks and of course few not doing as well as they could. 

Rotala Mac being one of the plants doing great compared to what i'm used to.



Pogostemon helferi was slow to start, but have come along in the last couple of weeks. I started with three crowns in the tank, two have been split to produce at least six new crowns and the one larger one in the back is in need some splitting. I can honestly say they are not as nice and full as the ones in the 75, but nice non the less.



Three large crowns in the 75. 



Hygrophila 'Compact' is growing well, new growth is coming in more green then red. But it's not 100% happy, a few twisted and deformed leaves. I need to get in there and thin out this group and give it some room to grow. 



I just mixed up a new batch of micros, of course I consulted our resident micro guru @burr790 and he recommended his current mix. This past Monday I started dosing the following 3x a week, I'm going to do this for 4 weeks to see how things respond. 

Fe - .3ppm
Mn - .075ppm
B - .06ppm
Zn - .06ppm
Mo - .002ppm
Cu - .003ppm
Ni - .0005ppm

Macros were kept the same at 25-7-30 per week.

Now on to the 75. I did a major clean up and trim on the weekend. It was perfect timing since I sold a huge plant package on Saturday which of course padded my wallet and helped me with issues of throwing plants out!

Before


After


Something I am finding really strange is this damn Ambulia. I have no clue what its up to, but it thinks it emersed and is throwing off emersed growth even though it has never been out of the water for longer then a cut and replant.



If anyone has any explanations, I'm all ears/eyes.


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Definitely have some cloudy water going on, worse today then yesterday. I'm starting to think the tank has not cycled as I had thought. I'm going to change the filter floss this weekend and add some more of my cycled media to see if that changes anything. 

Right after water change this past Monday. 


Tonight


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Have you tried Purigen? It won't fix the cause but might help to clear it up for now.


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

MCFC said:


> Have you tried Purigen? It won't fix the cause but might help to clear it up for now.


I believe I have two bags in the filter already. I say believe because I can't remember which filter I put them in. I started out with two filters on this tank a SunSun304B and Aquatop500UV, the flow was crazy so I remove the SunSun. But I can't remember exactly which filter I added it to. I'll find out on the weekend when I crack the filter, if its not there I will be adding it for sure.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

What is your PAR at the substrate? 

Long shot, but I saw similar not too long ago when I replaced bulbs and had too much PAR.

Lowered it a bit and things cleared up in no time.

Just a thought. Interested to see where this goes.


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

I cleaned out the filter yesterday since I had some free time. 

Low and behold no Purigen and only one small filter pad. As mentioned, I originally set up 2 filters on this tank. One was basically full of cycled media, three trays full of it, and one tray with a thin piece of filter floss. Well the flow ended up being way to much so I removed one filter and moved it over to another tank to keep the media cycled we'll I built another inline valve to throttle flow. I guess I picked the wrong filter to move because the one I moved had the filter floss and the Purigen in it. All said and done I ended up adding two new bags of Purigen and a whole trail full of filter floss to the filter. 

That was a mouth full, not sure if anyone will understand what I just said, but it makes sense to me........

So far today the water is still cloudy, but I've not seen it with the lights on yet. I'm still leaning towards the tank not being cycled as I have thought.
@Greggz I'm going to finally use the PAR @MCFC sent me and see whats going on PAR wise. More news at 11!


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## AgMa (Jan 19, 2017)

Put some water in a clear glass. If it's milky, there is a bacteria bloom.


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

AgMa said:


> Put some water in a clear glass. If it's milky, there is a bacteria bloom.


This is probably the case. I've run my UV for 3 days and it didn't seem to do much. 

In the end, I'm not to worried about it, water changes and time should take care of itself.


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## AgMa (Jan 19, 2017)

slipfinger said:


> This is probably the case. I've run my UV for 3 days and it didn't seem to do much.
> 
> In the end, I'm not to worried about it, water changes and time should take care of itself.


Yeah, uv is good for green water. That's not your problem.
It's a "who cares" now that there are not fish


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

And we are clear! 

Friday Evening.


Saturday Evening


Just Now


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Good to hear. 

I've got to tell you, hard to believe you set this tank up just a short time ago.

One of the fastest best starts I have seen, and a really beautiful presentation. Well done! 

Any luck with the Seneye? Very curious to see what PAR levels you are dealing with there.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

@slipfinger - assuming you used the same camera settings and lighting and etc... that is an impressive improvement! Funny, thought the first pic looked nice. Then the second pic looked better and was thinking "it worked". Then saw the 3rd pic :surprise:

Congrats!


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Greggz said:


> Good to hear.
> 
> I've got to tell you, hard to believe you set this tank up just a short time ago.
> 
> ...


Thanks @Greegz.

As for the Seneye, there is just not enough time in a day. I already informed the family that when I get home from work tomorrow I have some tank maintenance to take care of.... Numbers will be posted tomorrow. 



Immortal1 said:


> @slipfinger - assuming you used the same camera settings and lighting and etc... that is an impressive improvement! Funny, thought the first pic looked nice. Then the second pic looked better and was thinking "it worked". Then saw the 3rd pic :surprise:
> 
> Congrats!


Thank-you.

Same camera, same settings, same lighting, no editing at all. Just a clean filter with more filter floss and Purigen added.


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Spent a few hours messing around in the tank. I thinned a few things out, trimmed off older leaves, trimmed off any leaves with algae, cleaned all the in tank equipment, cleaned all the glass and finally a big water change. Now that thinks have started to grow in well its time to start moving things around to see how they look. Right side of the tank is still to cramped for my liking so it will be thinned next time I get my hands in there.



Finally got a chance to get the PAR meter wet. First off I did notice that the angle of the sensor really changes the reading. Second it is not the easiest unit to use, it should come with a wand or something so you can move it around the tank with ease. 


Sensor is just shy of 22" from the bottom of the fixture. PAR=115 I took a bunch readings in this general area at about the same depth and got as low as 110 and as high as 138. 


Finally center of the tank width and depth.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Interesting thing I have learned with the Seneye is you really have to point the sensor directly at the light source for it to read the red levels correctly. Of course that seems to apply much more to us LED guys vs the T5 group. I have had some readings that looked like your first one (blue heavy) and others that look more like your second reading (more of an even amount of red / blue).
Now with that said - 158PAR, wow.


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Immortal1 said:


> Interesting thing I have learned with the Seneye is you really have to point the sensor directly at the light source for it to read the red levels correctly. Of course that seems to apply much more to us LED guys vs the T5 group. I have had some readings that looked like your first one (blue heavy) and others that look more like your second reading (more of an even amount of red / blue).
> Now with that said - 158PAR, wow.


As mentioned above I found this as well, a slight turn side to side could change the number by a lot. I had a feeling I would be in and around the 120 range near the sub. Back in the day when I measured PAR on the 75gal Weed Farm running a six bulb fixture, I was getting readings around 167 PAR at sub. 

I never really paid attention to the spectrum reading while doing this, if I get it back out I'll pay a little more attention to it.

The 158PAR is about 14" from the fixture and again the sensor could have been tilted a little, but if I'm getting 120 at sub easily getting 160ish in that area of the tank. 

I'm going to try and get my hands on the LFS Apogee Quantum Meter to compare the values. Not suspecting I'll find much difference.


----------



## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

I think I've said this already, but I'm going to say it again. I LOVE BDBS! This stuff has so many positives going for it, cheap, easy to plant in and the best part you can move things around all day long and not worry about clouding the tank. Now that I got that off my chest, let move to the actual update.

The rimless has been up and running for just over a month. I am super excited about how things have gone. I had to deal with a little algae for the first couple of weeks, but that has all but disappeared. The water is still getting slightly cloudy after a few days, but I've been doing two a week water changes and its been keeping it in check. After I cleaned the filter and added the Purigen it seemed to clear it up, but this last week it returned after a few days.

Enough of the belly aching and on to the positives. All the photos were taken just after my water change, sorry for all the clarity and bubbles.

Rotala Macrandra has never looked better for me. The stems in the front have been growing in this tank since day one. The ones behind were added from the weed farm and still look like [censored][censored][censored][censored].


AR mini has turned around since I switched my micros to the latest version. Leaves have flatted out nicely and they are producing new plantlets like crazy. 


Current micro dosing if anyone is interested. My macro dosing has not changed. It seems to be working pretty well so I'll leave it as for the time being. 
Dosed 3x a week.

Fe .3ppm
Mn .075ppm
B .06pp
Zn .06ppm
Mo .002ppm
Cu .003ppm 
Ni .0005ppm

Since I started in this hobby I have always used a Python to do water changes. For those that have never used one they are great for smaller tanks, beats the [censored][censored][censored][censored] out of carrying buckets. But for larger tanks you waste a lot of water since you have the water running the whole time to create the suction. I would estimate you are using just as much water to drain the tank as you are to fill it, so a 50 gal water change turns into 100gals and when you are doing that twice a week on two tanks it starts to add up. So I decided to purchase a small transfer pump that pumps about 7gal a minute to drain the water in the tank. I can now drain my tanks in 5 minutes or less, compared to about 10 to 15 minutes it took with the Phyton and I'm not wasting any water to drain them. If anyone is interested here is the pump I purchased. 1/2 HP Clear Water Surface Pump



Finally a few random pics and of course the FTS





I finally cleaned up the right side of the tank. I thinned out the Penthorum sediodes, cleaned up the AR in the back right corner and moved it in front of the Nymphoides hydrophylla 'Taiwan' since it was being blocking. I also cleaned up most of the groupings in the front, I plan to clean up the Hygro compact and the rest of the AR mini later this week. It's also almost time to thin out the '53b' in the middle of the tank.


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

slipfinger said:


> AR mini has turned around since I switched my micros to the latest version. Leaves have flatted out nicely and they are producing new plantlets like crazy.
> 
> 
> Current micro dosing if anyone is interested. My macro dosing has not changed. It seems to be working pretty well so I'll leave it as for the time being.
> ...



Tank is looking pretty impressive!
Had to chuckle a bit reading thru this post. When I started out with a 20g regular tank I was doing the bucket brigade and absolute hated it. If you look at the beginning of my build thread you can see how I fixed that problem (never have used a Python).


AR Mini - one of my nemesis plants. Have tried many times to get that [censored] plant to grow. Now looking at your thoughts regarding your micros I wonder if that was a major factor for me the whole time???


As for the 53b - I got a few stems from Burr a while ago. Kinda sat there and looked a bit sickley. Then it got taller, and a bit bigger so I pulled it apart and spread it around a bit...
I can only guess that some of the changes I have made since then have agreed with that plant. Yes, it seems to be a slow grower but if you forget to pay weekly attention to it before you know it it's huge! Ans so is the 2 in the wifes tank, and the 4 in the grow out tank and why did I ever put one in the 5g Betta tank :surprise:


Anyway, I like where this tank is going!


----------



## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Looks top notch!

Did any of my plants survive? Is that my Persicaria in the back left?


----------



## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

MCFC said:


> Looks top notch!
> 
> Did any of my plants survive? Is that my Persicaria in the back left?


Everything has survived. Yup 'Sao Paulo' in the back beside the curly. If you look closely just in front of the 53b you'll see some Bonsai and the Gratiola is growing nicely in both the 75 and 40. I throw up some pictures tomorrow.

How are they doing in your tank?


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

I could probably go back and find it but what's your current PO4 dosing?

Fwiw Im dosing the exact same micros in the big tanks and its been working well


----------



## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

burr740 said:


> I could probably go back and find it but what's your current PO4 dosing?
> 
> Fwiw Im dosing the exact same micros in the big tanks and its been working well


Macros are 25-7-30. Seems to be working well in all tanks. I was front loading about 60% and the rest spread out over the week, but because of the twice a week water changes I've basically been dosing 25% 4 times a week, always making sure to dose some right after a water change. Once I go back to my normal once a week water change I will go back to front loading. If I decided to stay with the twice a week water changes I will try dose half my weekly totals after each water change, see how that goes. 

I believe you had good results front loading micros?


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Question for you @slipfinger

Are you using actual Black Diamond brand? If so where did you purchase it?

Were you/are selling plants on kijiji? I may have bought some from you a while back (just noticed your location and figured I would ask)


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Quagulator said:


> Are you using actual Black Diamond brand? If so where did you purchase it?


This might help



slipfinger said:


> While looking to see where and how long it would take me to drive to the closest TSC store in the US, google took me to Canada's version of BDBS. Looking at the SDS sheet for it, it seems to be very similar to US Minerals BDBS. Then I just happened to be reading through journals and came upon @Quagulator journal and he is using it in his new 90gal setup, waiting on a response from him to see if he has had any issues with it at all.
> 
> There is hope!


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

MCFC said:


> This might help


HAHAHAHA Monday morning syndrome.... Better run to Tim's and get an extra fix of caffeine roud:


----------



## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Quagulator said:


> Question for you @slipfinger
> 
> Are you using actual Black Diamond brand? If so where did you purchase it?
> 
> Were you/are selling plants on kijiji? I may have bought some from you a while back (just noticed your location and figured I would ask)


Nope I've never sold plants of Kijiji, only GTAA and FB. 

As for the BDBS, I did purchase four bags back in the day of the actual BDBS product in the states at their Tractor Supply store. Ended up going with AS and sold all four pages within minutes of posting them on GTAA buy and sell. 

For anyone interested if you look at the MSDS/SDS sheets for each product they are very similar. 

*Actual BDBS*

Amorphous Fused Silicon Dioxide 40-50
Aluminum Oxide....................... 18-22
Iron Oxide................................ 5-12
Calcium Oxide.......................... 15-22
Potassium Oxide .......................0-1
Titanium Oxide......................... 1-2
Magnesium Oxide..................... 3-5
Sodium Oxide........................... 0-1
Crystalline Silica as Quartz......... 0-0.6
Crystalline Silica as Cristobalite <0.01
Beryllium................................ 0-0.00005

*K&E Coal slag*

Silicon Dioxide………..49%
Aluminum Oxide………23%
Iron Oxide……..........11%
Calcium Oxide…………15%
Magnesium Oxid……..1%
Other………...............1%


----------



## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Immortal1 said:


> Tank is looking pretty impressive!
> Had to chuckle a bit reading thru this post. When I started out with a 20g regular tank I was doing the bucket brigade and absolute hated it. If you look at the beginning of my build thread you can see how I fixed that problem (never have used a Python).
> 
> 
> ...


Reading through all these journals I have found one thing to hold true in this hobby, to put it simply we are all crazy. Like most hobbies, as time goes on we acquire more and more of whatever it is we are interested in, be it, comics, coins, stamps, or maybe pieces of celebrates hair. I'm sure that last one is a real thing! But unlike most hobbies as we acquire more and more of what we are interested in, we knowing or unknowingly for some are creating more and more work for ourselves. I think finding ways to simplify the process is a natural progression and you sir have nailed it with your set-up. 

Ya AR has always given me issues and by no means have I figured this plant out. It seems to be happier in the rimless compared to the weed farm, but I am still dosing the higher B micros in the weed farm (can't bring myself to toss the old mix). But it has definitly improved since I switched the micros in the rimless. Now lets talk about AR variegated, that sun of a gun is a pita. Just when I think I have it sorted out and new leaves look to be growing nice and flat, they start to twist and look like azz. I keep it around because one of these days I'll figure it out.

53b has never grown this good for me. It always look to be deficient in something when grown in the weed farm. But so far in the rimless they are damn near perfect, the odd little wrinkle in a leaf here and there but no holes or transparent leaves. I'm sure it has to do with my current dosing, I'll have a closer peek at the stuff in the 75 and see what it looks like with higher micros. Its kinda buried in the back of the tank, out of site out of mind. 

Weed Farm


Currently in the rimless


Oh ya, after all the rambling I almost forgot. Thanks.


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Your welcome! and also, thank-you.
Interesting, my 53b when it was in my 75g looked almost as bad as your first pic. Now I have it in her 40g (pretty much same lights, substrate, dosing, water, etc) and it looks a lot more like your 2nd pic. (stupid hobby)


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

slipfinger said:


> Everything has survived. Yup 'Sao Paulo' in the back beside the curly. If you look closely just in front of the 53b you'll see some Bonsai and the Gratiola is growing nicely in both the 75 and 40. I throw up some pictures tomorrow.
> 
> How are they doing in your tank?


Nice!

'Sao Paulo' is growing pretty well. The leaves aren't dead straight and they are more pink than the purple I see in pictures online, but no complaints yet.

Bonsai has always been a tough one for me. It's growing, but looks a little funky.

The Gratiola is doing OK. I think the growth is a little stunted because it doesn't love where it is in the tank. All of my plants are just tossed in randomly at the moment. I think I'll try and actually arrange them this week, and maybe move the Gratiola into a spot with more light.


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

slipfinger said:


> Macros are 25-7-30. Seems to be working well in all tanks. I was front loading about 60% and the rest spread out over the week, but because of the twice a week water changes I've basically been dosing 25% 4 times a week, always making sure to dose some right after a water change. Once I go back to my normal once a week water change I will go back to front loading. If I decided to stay with the twice a week water changes I will try dose half my weekly totals after each water change, see how that goes.
> 
> I believe you had good results front loading micros?


Between water changes you're dosing two 25% doses of 25-7-30, right?

For our purposes 'per week' means between water changes. So your 'weekly total' is actually 12.5-3.5-15.

Doesnt matter if water changes are every 4 days or 14, the only thing that changes is time for plant uptake, the 'weekly total' is the same.

Just something to keep in mind when you go back to water changes 1x week. The amounts in the water column will change drastically. (you probably know all this but others may not)


And yeah I front load macros, 60% right after a water change then two more 20% on alternating days. Water change every 6 or 7 days


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

burr740 said:


> Between water changes you're dosing two 25% doses of 25-7-30, right?
> 
> For our purposes 'per week' means between water changes. So your 'weekly total' is actually 12.5-3.5-15.
> 
> ...


 @burr740 you bring up a very valid point and one I really didn't consider. But you are absolutely correct that am truly only dosing 12.5-3.5-15 per week/between water changes. I'm only into the second week of two a week water changes, and have yet to notice a difference, but now that you've pointed this out to me I'll probably go home today and notice things I haven't noticed before and get myself all stressed out! Thanks......


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

LOL, well things are looking pretty good so I wouldnt worry about it. But its good to keep in mind that when you do go to 1x week, you'll actually be dosing a lot more than you are now


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

MCFC said:


> Nice!
> 
> 'Sao Paulo' is growing pretty well. The leaves aren't dead straight and they are more pink than the purple I see in pictures online, but no complaints yet.
> 
> ...


Ok last post of the day, I've definitely gone over my daily posting quota. 

Anyways, here are the plants in my tanks. Everything is doing well, new pinched off stems of Sao Paulo are growing nice and straight. Bonsai and Gratiola are not complaining at all.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

slipfinger said:


> Reading through all these journals I have found one thing to hold true in this hobby, to put it simply we are all crazy.


Guilty as charged!

I've got some other hobbies as well. 

They all have one thing in common. 

The more time you spend on the internet and forums, the more crazy you get!!!:wink2:


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Nothing new to update so lets post a few random pictures........ Anyone notice anything strange in one of the pictures. Something you've probably never seen before in my tanks. 





Blyxa looking a nice pink/red colour.


Lobelia also showing some nice colour.




Couple new additions to the tank. Alternanthera reineckii ‘Ocipus’ and Rotala indica 'Bonsai'





And why not a side shot to finish it off.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Fish!


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

I stumbled upon a few bags of this weird green mossy type of stuff, what the hell do you do with this crap? I guess I need to start some shrimp tanks.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

slipfinger said:


> I stumbled upon a few bags of this weird green mossy type of stuff, what the hell do you do with this crap? I guess I need to start some shrimp tanks.


Got a better picture? Where did you get if from? 

If it is what I think it is...... DO NOT PUT IT IN YOUR MAIN DISPLAY TANK .... !


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

slipfinger said:


> MCFC said:
> 
> 
> > ... Gratiola is growing nicely in both the 75 and 40.
> ...


----------



## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

OVT said:


> slipfinger said:
> 
> 
> > Is that Gratiola ebracteata by any chance? I would love to see some close-ups.
> ...


----------



## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Update time.

As I posted a few weeks ago the tanks has had been steadily getting cloudier as the week went on. I started doing two a week water changes to see if that would help. I cleaned the filter and added Purigen which seemed to clear it up, but it started to return again. I wanted to get back to once I week water changes so I could get my dosing back on track, I said screw it left the tank cloudy for all of last week. Last Saturday I changed out the filter floss and did a big 70%+ water change and turned the UV, which I just turned off yesterday. The water has cleared up again and is looking good so far. 

Below is the tank just before I did the water change. 

Here is how the tank looked last night.


Overall things are good. Still fighting a little GDA which is growing on some of the older Lobelia and AR mini leaves, along with a 'coating' on the Ambulia which gives it a crappy dull brown, orange colour. I get in there and pinch off any of the Lobelia and AR leaves but can't really do anything about the Ambulia which sucks, but it is what it is.

Pogostemon eretus is having some issues, never had a issue with this plant in AquaSoil. What you see in the tank above is the second batch that has been in the tank. The first batch of stems all stunted, tips ended up in little balls. ended up taking them them out and throw them in the 40, replaced them with nice fresh stems out of the 75. If you look at the two FTS above you'll notice in the top photo how full the erectus looks and less then a week later in the lower picture you'll see how they are already starting to look thin and stunted. I know other with inert sub struggle with this plant as well. Could be my micro dosing, but I'm not about to change things for one plant when everything else seems to be enjoying life. 

I had to mixed up a new four week batch of both macros and micros. Left micros the same but lowered P in the macro mix from 6ppm to 5ppm to see if I can see any differences. 

On a side note, about three weeks ago (3 doses worth now), I started to add a tbsp of Equilibrium to the tank around mid week or about 3 days after my water change. Technically my tap should supply enough Ca and Mg but I figured a mid week bump would not hurt. First thing I noticed and not 100% sure this is related or not, is Mermaid Weed leaves have fatten right up. The picture below shows the new grow on the tall stem in the back, and how it has changed from the old growth. This was back on Nov 11th. The fat stem up front and in the middle came out of the 75, that's way it looks different then the others. 



Here is the same plants as of yesterday.


So as everyone probably knows alreadt, the AGA International Aquascaping Contest results were released a week or so back, Congrats @burr790 for placing 3rd, tank looked spectacular! Something that I noticed right away was, no Canadian content in the dutch category, well except for that one Canadian guy that must have clicked the wrong category or is really confused what Dutch Style actually is. Maybe, just maybe this might be the year a Canadian enters their tank. We'll have to wait and see I guess. 

Anyways, above I mentioned I found a bunch of bags of moss, which just happened to be Xmas Moss! Well there is only one thing to do when someone gets a hold of 5 baggies full of the stuff, build moss walls of course! So I message @burr740 and asked he about 100 questions, which he was kind enough to answer, along with giving me great instructions and tips. Thanks Joe!

So I sat down with my new found knowledge and built a back panel and stitched the moss to the panel. The other 3 panels are built, I just need to sit at the table and stitch the rest of the moss to them.





So far I am happy with the look. I'm a little hesitant to do the sides since I love the side view, but Joe assured me I'll get used to it. If not I'll grow them out in the 75 and move them over to the rimless if I have a reason to.......

I'll post a pic of the tank once I have all the panels mossed up.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

slipfinger said:


> can't really do anything about the Ambulia which sucks, but it is what it is.


Maybe try myrio matogrossense in it's place? Pretty much identical plant.




slipfinger said:


> So as everyone probably knows already, the AGA International Aquascaping Contest results were released a week or so back, Congrats @burr740 for placing 3rd, tank looked spectacular! Something that I noticed right away was, no Canadian content in the dutch category, *well except for that one Canadian guy that must have clicked the wrong category or is really confused what Dutch Style actually is*. Maybe, just maybe this might be the year a Canadian enters their tank. We'll have to wait and see I guess.


I saw that entry and laughed my ass off haha. Way to represent Canada buddy! 

I'll be in there next year! Think you can beat me? :grin2:

EDIT - In case anyone is interested, here's Canada's take on the Dutch style... LOL!






slipfinger said:


> So I messaged burr740 and asked him about 100 questions, which he was kind enough to answer, along with giving me great instructions and tips. Thanks Joe!
> 
> So I sat down with my new found knowledge and built a back panel and stitched the moss to the panel. The other 3 panels are built, I just need to sit at the table and stitch the rest of the moss to them.


Care to share the instructions and tips? I was going to try my hand at a moss wall this weekend


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MCFC said:


> EDIT - In case anyone is interested, here's Canada's take on the Dutch style... LOL!


I see "Dutch" thrown around here pretty casually. 

But that brings it to a whole new level!!!:grin2:

And nice update @slipfinger. 

Tank is looking great!


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Greggz said:


> I see "Dutch" thrown around here pretty casually.


That's the exact reason I have my own "style" .... I don't want to be held within a set of rules --- at this time anyway.

Let's say I wanted a Dutch style tank, I would certainly not toss the name around lightly. Either I follow the "rules" or I don't claim it as a Dutch. 

Semi-Dutch seems to be a word I see used a lot too. I personally would call that a "planted tank" or, if pressed, I would say a "Dutch Inspired tank" etc. 

Mini rank over lol. 

My style: Hardscape the tank, plant it, remove hardscape as plants grow in, only keep pieces of hardscape that acts as an anchor for java fern / anubias / buce or barriers for separating plant groups. No rules, no defined process.

Don't get me wrong, I love all styles of tanks :smile2: but throwing around a tank style name without the tank being true to that name throws me off a little.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

@Quagulator - So you think this journal should be ”Rimless Planted Tank”? Lol! 

Only time the “rules” matter is when entering a competition. Other than that, why not let others know where your inspiration comes from? I don’t see how it hurts anything...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

MCFC said:


> @Quagulator - So you think this journal should be ”Rimless Planted Tank”? Lol!
> 
> Only time the “rules” matter is when entering a competition. Other than that, why not let others know where your inspiration comes from? I don’t see how it hurts anything...
> 
> ...


I knew it! I would have to defend my case lol 

It's hard to explain what I actually mean. No, I do not think this journal (or any journal) should be called anything other than what the OP calls it. 

They can call it whatever they want, it's their tank, and if it makes them happy, then they should do whatever they want!

In my own mind, I think of things as black or white, it's how I'm wired. Is there grey between black and white? Absolutely. As long as the grey area is defined. There is tons of wiggle room in terms of naming a style and a tank. I just see names tossed around so lightly and it 'bugs' me as a perfectionist lol.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Well @slipfingers tank is pretty "Dutchy" to me. Much more Dutch than most, that is for sure.

The thing is most people don't know what an actual Dutch tank is. 

I'm still just a fish tank with plants. Aspiring to reach "Dutchy" some day!:grin2:

Now actual Dutch? It's much more difficult to achieve than most realize.


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Greggz said:


> Well @slipfingers tank is pretty "Dutchy" to me. Much more Dutch than most, that is for sure.
> 
> The thing is most people don't know what an actual Dutch tank is.
> 
> ...




Getting a little more Dutchy everyday, well that's the plan anyways. 

I know I have some work to do before I can truly call this an actual Dutch tank. I have too many species of plants, I should be in and around 13-14 different kinds of plants, I'm currently sitting at 21. I need more actual green plants, not plants that would normally be green but because of the high light they are not, Blyxa being one. I also need a little more space between groups and to work on a few front to back 'streets'. I've been spending a lot of time searching the web for pictures of true Dutch tanks, looking at layouts, plant selection and any little detail that sets one tank apart from another. I also spend a lot of time sitting back looking at my own tank going over layout ideas, wondering what plant will work where and how best to trim a plant so it looks just right. I would consider myself an extreme beginner, these true Dutch masters are just that masters! It takes years of trial and error to actually master the art of Dutch Aquascaping. 

Anyways, I finally got my second filter setup tonight. Been wanting to do it for weeks, but knew I needed a good chunk of time to get it installed and running. Since I was installing the moss walls I wanted to remove as much equipment out of the tank as I could. I went with a in-line heater, skimmer is now built into the filter intake and with the added flow, the circulation pump is not needed anymore. 

I trimmed and moved a few things on the left side of the tank. The AR in the back corner will be coming out and either the Ambulia or Hygrophila difformis will take its place. Both plants are weeds, worried they will be too much work or just too damn tough to manage back in that corner. Not sure I am liking the Nymphoides hydrophylla 'Taiwan' in the front or maybe I'm just not liking those actual plants, I have a few smaller ones growing out in one of the 40's that I'm going to try. The joys of having grow out tanks!

Oh ya in case you didn't notice I add the moss wall on the right side of the tank.


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

It's looking Dutchier and Dutchier. Canada might just redeem itself next year!

I like the moss wall, it added instant depth.

You might like the Nymphoides better if you keep it thinner. Pinch a few of those biggest leaves off. That's a weekly chore in mine.

Cant believe the compact hygro hasnt gone green again


----------



## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

MCFC said:


> I'll be in there next year! Think you can beat me? :grin2:
> 
> Care to share the instructions and tips? I was going to try my hand at a moss wall this weekend


I'm only competing against myself. In all honestest the reason I want to enter, it will force me to actually learn to 'scape'. Scaping is something I currently struggle with, along with having issues throwing out trimmings, but thats a topic for another day. Growing plants is for the most part the easy part. 

But on the flip side a little friendly competition never hurts anyone. 

https://barrreport.com/articles/how-to-build-an-easily-removable-moss-wall.44/

Wealth of information in this article!
https://barrreport.com/articles/tips-and-tricks-for-dutch-style-aquascaping.47/





burr740 said:


> It's looking Dutchier and Dutchier. Canada might just redeem itself next year!
> 
> I like the moss wall, it added instant depth.
> 
> ...


Ya I noticed the depth as soon as I added the second panel. Thanks again for all your help Joe! 

The Hygro actually did turn green or greenish. What you are looking at are new plantlets I pinched off and replanted. Below are all the trimmings I took out of the rimless when I thinned the group out.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Thanks for the links!

If you haven't checked out Bart Laurens website then I highly recommend taking a look. Some really amazing stuff, even unrelated to aquariums, and our good friend @burr740 even gets a shout-out! 



slipfinger said:


> Scaping is something I currently struggle with, *along with having issues throwing out trimmings*, but thats a topic for another day. Growing plants is for the most part the easy part.


Story of my life...


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## ventus0907 (Nov 23, 2018)

Hi amazing tank!!
If only I did enough research before starting my planted tank. I would've went with a rimless tank as well.
By the I might have missed it but what bulb were you using again on the t5 fixture and where did you get them?


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

ventus0907 said:


> Hi amazing tank!!
> If only I did enough research before starting my planted tank. I would've went with a rimless tank as well.
> By the I might have missed it but what bulb were you using again on the t5 fixture and where did you get them?


Hey Ryan. 

Currently on the Rimless I am running a Sunblaster 6500K upfront, a very old ATI 420nm Actinic, Power Veg 633 and a Sunblaster 2700K.



Sunblaster bulbs can be found cheap at most hydroponics stores and here is a source for knock off PowerVeg bulbs. They currently only come in 48" models. 

Knock Off PowerVeg


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## ventus0907 (Nov 23, 2018)

slipfinger said:


> Hey Ryan.
> 
> Currently on the Rimless I am running a Sunblaster 6500K upfront, a very old ATI 420nm Actinic, Power Veg 633 and a Sunblaster 2700K.
> 
> ...


Thank you!
I'm just trying the best light combination for my tank. I have 2 ft tall tank so been tricky for me.
If you don't mind can I ask you what you think about my current setup for my lighting.
I started out with 2x Sunblaster T5HO system 6400k temp and sandwich in betweek is the LED version of the 6400k Sunblaster.
Had it for few months I started to notice dark colorations on my plants, seems like spot algae. SO recently I removed the 2 T5 Fixture and left the LED alone.

But seeing your post made me think if there's such thing as too much light. I'm fairly new to palnted tanks so wanted to have your opinion


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

ventus0907 said:


> Thank you!
> I'm just trying the best light combination for my tank. I have 2 ft tall tank so been tricky for me.
> If you don't mind can I ask you what you think about my current setup for my lighting.
> I started out with 2x Sunblaster T5HO system 6400k temp and sandwich in betweek is the LED version of the 6400k Sunblaster.
> ...



Is there a thing as too much light? 

The answer to that is not cut and dry, ask 10 people and you'll probably get 10 different answers. I have a 21" deep 75 gal grow out tank and I run 6 bulbs about 30" from the sub and I get around 130-140 PAR at sub. I know @burr740 had 120gal 24" tank and he ran 6 bulbs and was in around 120 PAR, @Greggz also has a deeper tank and he runs 6 or more bulbs and also gets around 120 PAR at sub. Is this too much light? It sure is if your tank is not balanced and stable, we can all get way with it because we've for the most part have figured out the sweet spot when it comes to nutrients, Co2 and light for our tanks. 

I do not recommend these light levels to someone just starting out, best to start lower and slowly work your way up in PAR. 

In your case, if you are seeing algae in your tank something is not balanced. Could be a multitude of reasons, not enough Co2, too much or too little nutrients, too much bioload, too little flow, dirty conditions, not enough light and of course too much light for your tanks conditions. 

I'd start a journal and post all your tanks details. Post some full tank shots so we can get an idea of what plants you are growing, list all your equipment and any parameters you can about your water. This will better help others give you advice, some good some bad.........


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## ventus0907 (Nov 23, 2018)

Ok @slipfinger, thank you! I'll hold back into buying the bulbs and start up my journal tonight. Looking forward to how can I improve my tank better


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

ventus0907 said:


> Ok @slipfinger, thank you! I'll hold back into buying the bulbs and start up my journal tonight. Looking forward to how can I improve my tank better


Ya I probably didn't give the answer you were looking for regarding lighting. I have no clue about those t5 LED lights so can't comment on them. 

Light is the main driver, higher light = faster plant growth which means more demand for nutrients and Co2. As mentioned you get any of these out of balance and you are opening the door for algae to grow. 

In the end you should have no issue growing anything with four T5 bulbs, I'm going to take a guess here but with four 6500K bulbs you'd be pushing 100 PAR at the substrate. Also a four bulb fixture would easily cover the spread (width) of your tank. 

If you are looking for a bulb combination that would cover all your bases, I'd go with a couple of Flora bulbs, be it ZooMed Flora or Giesemann Super Flora and a couple generic 6500K bulbs. If you want to get really fancy then go with something I'm running or have a look @burr740 journal, he has been trying different bulb combinations for a years.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

slipfinger said:


> Is there a thing as too much light?
> 
> The answer to that is not cut and dry, ask 10 people and you'll probably get 10 different answers. I have a 21" deep 75 gal grow out tank and I run 6 bulbs about 30" from the sub and I get around 130-140 PAR at sub. I know @burr740 had 120gal 24" tank and he ran 6 bulbs and was in around 120 PAR, @Greggz also has a deeper tank and he runs 6 or more bulbs and also gets around 120 PAR at sub. Is this too much light? It sure is if your tank is not balanced and stable, we can all get way with it because we've for the most part have figured out the sweet spot when it comes to nutrients, Co2 and light for our tanks.
> 
> ...


This is a great post. I completely agree, and you summed up a lot of things very well.

In general, more PAR = more color. And that's what lots of people want.

But that comes at a price. The more you increase light, the more you need to pay close attention to every other detail. Everything is turbo charged, so you are living further out on the edge. Every little detail counts.

It's not for everyone. And like you said, risky for beginners.

And starting a journal with full tank details and pictures is good advice for everyone here.


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## ventus0907 (Nov 23, 2018)

slipfinger said:


> ventus0907 said:
> 
> 
> > Ok @slipfinger, thank you! I'll hold back into buying the bulbs and start up my journal tonight. Looking forward to how can I improve my tank better
> ...


I was planning on keeping the LED in front and buying the actinc and red bulb to put in to the 2 fixture. Does that sound a good idea or a disaster? 

Here's some info about the LED strip 
https://www.sunblasterlighting.com/our-products/grow-lighting/led-strip-lights/


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Greggz said:


> This is a great post. I completely agree, and you summed up a lot of things very well.
> 
> In general, more PAR = more color. And that's what lots of people want.
> 
> ...



Agree 100% here! For the last couple of weeks I have had my lights set closer to 120 par vs 105. At least two or three groupings of plants are now needing to be trimmed every 7 days vs every 14 days. Sounds like fun... but with 2 tanks going it can be a lot of work. And as Gregg stated, you really got to be paying almost daily attention to various details.


LOL, kinda like having a big tank with 40 male Betta fish and one angle fish... It looks really pretty for a little while but don't blink cause if you do it will get ugly very quickly :wink2:


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

ventus0907 said:


> I was planning on keeping the LED in front and buying the actinc and red bulb to put in to the 2 fixture. Does that sound a good idea or a disaster?
> 
> Here's some info about the LED strip
> https://www.sunblasterlighting.com/our-products/grow-lighting/led-strip-lights/


That combination should work just fine. 

It has been proven that a fixture full of 6500K bulbs will grow plants, but does it give the best colour rendition? The reason must of use mess around with bulbs is for colour rendition, a bonus is we can also to a certain extent adjust our PAR levels by using different bulb combination.


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## ventus0907 (Nov 23, 2018)

slipfinger said:


> That combination should work just fine.
> 
> It has been proven that a fixture full of 6500K bulbs will grow plants, but does it give the best colour rendition? The reason must of use mess around with bulbs is for colour rendition, a bonus is we can also to a certain extent adjust our PAR levels by using different bulb combination.


Ok thank you, I couldn't stop my self and ordered the 2 bulbs last night lol. I though might as well as I will start preparing to do a bigger rimless tank and might do dutch style this time.


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## Kayak83 (Apr 18, 2017)

Can you share some details on your stand? I thought I saw a open 2x4 frame DIY job, but then maybe doors too later on?


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Kayak83 said:


> Can you share some details on your stand? I thought I saw a open 2x4 frame DIY job, but then maybe doors too later on?


Have a look at my old 75gal journal, I have a few pictures on how I built it.

Basically its a 2x4 stand, plans can be found all over the internet. I used a table saw to square off all the edges, just makes it easier to square everything up.

The skins I used are just panels that would be used for kitchen cupboards. Not sure where you are located but IKEA here in Canada sells varies sizes and colours, I just picked the ones that best suited the size I needed.

The panel clips can be found online. Installing the panels this way allows easy access to the underside of the cabinet.


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Getting Dutchier!



For anyone considering trying their hand at building moss walls, be warned its time consuming. Don't think you'll sit down and knock a panel out in half hour. The panel of the left side took me just over three hours to build and then stitch all the moss to it.

Just the right side left to do. Also going to take the back panels out and stitch a little more moss closer to the top edge.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Tank looks Great!

"*Getting Dutchier, be warned its time consuming*"

I think that needs to be a general statement for most planted tanks :grin2:


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Finally finished the last moss wall! 

Spent about an hour removing plants and trying to get the total number down to about 14. I think thats about the number I need for 75 gal tank. 

I still have to sort the left side of the tank out, not sure what to even do over there. I'm consider filling the back left corner with Pogostemon erectus, but its not growing so well for me atm. 
I have to do something with the 'kawagoeanum' and the L. 'curly', I'm thinking to either remove the 'curly' and the 'kawagoeanum' and try a big group of L. 'cuba' I have growing in the 75 in their place or remove the 'kawagoeanum' all together and make the L. 'curly' a larger group. I'm a little worried about L. 'cuba' as it likes to grow a little wild. 

If anyone has any suggestion I'd be glad to hear them.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Looking pretty good! 

It feels weird critiquing a tank that’s much nicer than my own, but here’s what I see if you’re truly going for Dutch:

Maybe a bit too much short foreground plants going straight to a tall background plant. 

The back end of the lobelia street should tuck in behind something. 

Probably too much “red” 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

LOL... three hours!

Did you get all tangled up in the thread?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MCFC said:


> Probably too much “red”


Huh?? Too much red? That's impossible!:grin2:



slipfinger said:


> Spent about an hour removing plants and trying to get the total number down to about 14. I think thats about the number I need for 75 gal tank.


The thing is, like you said earlier, you are only competing with yourself. So the bottom line is what YOU enjoy looking at. 

If you are really trying to go Dutch, you need to bring in the big guns like Joe, Phil, & Vin. 

And I think I spy 16 species........just sayin'.:wink2: But I have to hand it to you, I have a terrible time removing plants. 

I went back and compared a picture of your tank from earlier this month to the latest with the moss walls. I've got to say, it really does add a lot to the presentation. Can't put my finger on it, but it just looks much more "complete".

Why'd you have to do that? I've got a weak mind an am easily influenced, so as you can imagine I'm already contemplating doing it to my tank. 

You and Joe are bad influences.:grin2:


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Greggz said:


> Huh?? Too much red? That's impossible!:grin2:


I agree! That's why I might have to re-title my journal "A Danish Tank with a Tutch of Dutch" haha :grin2:


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

That is looking incredible! This tank is coming along in leaps and bounds. The moss walls add hugely to the aesthetic. Looking forward to seeing where you go from here.


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## vijay_06 (Apr 11, 2017)

The tank is looking fantastic! I love the color contrasts.

By the way, what is your current Micros dosing between water changes?


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

MCFC said:


> Looking pretty good!
> 
> It feels weird critiquing a tank that’s much nicer than my own, but here’s what I see if you’re truly going for Dutch:
> 
> ...


Critique away! 

The foreground plants still have to grow in. The general idea is to have the Penthorum sedoides on the right grow up taller between the Blyxa and the Ambulia and slip in behind the R.mac. Same goes for the Lobelia I had to trim it all down to get enough plants to extend it in the front. 

I have a vision, now I have to be patient and let everything grow in.

As for too much red. I haven't even touched the left side yet, more plants will be removed tomorrow evening. 




burr740 said:


> LOL... three hours!
> 
> Did you get all tangled up in the thread?


My excuse is, I was trying to watch football. Its a pain in the ass when you need your glasses on to stitch the moss to the panel, then have to take them off to see the TV. The joys of getting old! But seriously, I have no clue how you do it in 45 minutes. The one I did today took me about an hour and a half and I wasn't watching anything.



Greggz said:


> Huh?? Too much red? That's impossible!:grin2:
> 
> 
> The thing is, like you said earlier, you are only competing with yourself. So the bottom line is what YOU enjoy looking at.
> ...


I've been spending hours scouring the internet looking at pictures of every dutch tank I can find. I read and re-read articles from Vin, Bart and of course been reading Joe's Journal again. It just happens to be my bed time reading. 

As mentioned above I have not touched anything on the left side of the tank. I hope to be down to 13/14 species by end of tomorrow, then I just have to let everything grow in. I will say, keeping a Dutch style tank is kinda like keeping a Bonsai Tree. I find myself trimming one leaf off here and another leaf off there just to get the right shape or spacing. Not that I have ever grown a Bonsai Tree, but I watched Karate Kid about 10 times, wax on, wax off, Danielson. 

I can honestly say I love the look of the moss walls, it completely changes the whole look of the tank. Just don't try and watch football and stitch a panel, and if you do make sure you have the spray bottle close at hand so you can keep the moss moist!

Bump:


vijay_06 said:


> The tank is looking fantastic! I love the color contrasts.
> 
> By the way, what is your current Micros dosing between water changes?
> 
> ...


Thank-you for the kind words.

Micro Dosing is the following 3x a week. Back to doing one 60% water change a week. 

Fe - .3
Mn - .075
B - .06
Zn - .06
Mo - .002
Cu - .003
Ni - .0005


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

slipfinger said:


> Fe - .3
> Mn - .075
> B - .06
> Zn - .06
> ...


Ive gone down to .2 3x for the past couple of weeks. Same recipe mix, just dosing 10 ml instead of 15. Its working well.

Did this partly because Ive reduced P so it shouldnt take so much Fe and micros, also because there's a few plants that havent been right ever since going up from the .15-.2 range 3x per week. Although the vast majority have been OK with it, or even better

Anyway, you might wanna try a little less and see if P erectus does better. Its one that definitely likes lower levels in my set ups. ymmv


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

LRJ said:


> That is looking incredible! This tank is coming along in leaps and bounds. The moss walls add hugely to the aesthetic. Looking forward to seeing where you go from here.


Thanks. 

You and me both. We'll see if the out come actually looks like I envisioned it would look, If not back to the drawing board. This is the beauty of having collectoritis and 3 grow out tanks full of different plants, they're is always other option on the ready.


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Posting an updated picture so I can see my progress. 

Removed the Mermaid Weed and added more crappy Pogo E in its place, I'm hoping it starts to improve. 

Still not sure what to do with the 'kawagoeanum' and the L. 'curly'. I need some form of a focal point on the left side of the tank, what that will end up being is still up in the air. I'm not sure about the Crypt 'tropica', in the past when I've had Crypts in the tank they grow low and flat because of the high light. 

I currently have 15 species in the tank, one to many so something still has to go. I thinking the Blyxa might be the odd man out, especially since it becomes pinkish under high light. 

I still have some tweaking to do, but I want things to grow in more so I can see how it will look as it fills out. I'm hoping as the plants in the front grow in they will create a little more depth, I'm really struggling with creating depth.

If anyone has any suggestion or comments, please fell free to throw your two cents out there.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

OK putting my judge goggles on:

Id ditch the trip japan and put the penthorum(?) over there. Then have wisteria come from high in the back all the way down to the front. Making the same curve to the far right as the Penthorum does now. This is a classic use of wisteria, you'll notice a lot of old school Dutch master's do this. 

I dont think you need another red focal point on the left. The macranda is already doing that on the right, fatten that group up, wider.

Persicaria will be OK if you can have it peeking up behind something else in front. It can be in a narrow group of just a few stems, as more of an accent. But it needs something full in front of it, so you just see the tops

A specimen plant would be good on the left, small sword, something with big leaves. I agree the crypt aint getting it done. Fwiw I have the same problem, so crypts I'd like to use lay flat as a pancake under the big light.

You need to trail the 53B some way where its not so dead center. Being dead center is OK, but it shouldnt be just a square block going straight up. You could scoot the limno to the right and have the 53B head that way more behind the mac.

Curly tornado will need to grow a lot better to ever work right there. it's kinda gimpy right now. Even then it might be too similar to P erectus, assuming both grow to their full potential

In general you need fatter groups and one or two less species. My latest entry had the same problems

Another thing, I know its early days and you dont really have the heights set, but see how the persicaria, tornado, 53B and limno are all the same height? You need to stagger each one so there's a dramatic difference between the group next to it.

You have to really exaggerate things like height variations and space between groups for the effect to come across in pictures. if you want it to look like there's an inch of space between something, better leave two or three. Same with heights

Stick with plants that grow perfectly if you're gonna enter a competition. Thats a big thing in the judges eyes, and they can all spot when something isnt right. It's better to have Plain Janes growing perfectly than a bunch of sub par exotics. Judges dont care about rarity or price


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

burr740 said:


> OK putting my judge goggles on:



First off, Dutch aquascaping is far harder then anyone can imagine. Having a vision is one thing, but everything actually coming together as you envisioned it is another story. The masters of this art are true masters, the more time I spend looking at pictures of these guys tanks the more I am in aw of what they have actually accomplished. 

I have spent hours sitting in front of my tank mentally moving things around and envisioning what it would look like if I move this here or move that there. Some of your ideas have crossed my mind, Wisteria being one of them. You mentioned old school Dutch masters, that is one thing I have noticed when looking at photos of TRUE Dutch tanks, most use this plant somewhere in their layout. Before I planted the trip. japan, I considered moving the Wisteria to back left corner and having it curve to the front left of the tank, just like you mentioned to do on the right side. 

I really appreciate you taking the time to put 'your judges goggles on'.. Having another set of eyes look at the tank really helps. I'm going to sit in front of the tank (again) tonight and disgust your comments.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

slipfinger said:


> If anyone has any suggestion or comments, please fell free to throw your two cents out there.



I only have 1 suggestion... take the y out of your thread title... it’s looking pretty Dutch to me.


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## Patriot (Dec 22, 2010)

Nice read. I definitely have some inspiration now stepping into a high tech setup. 

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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

vvDO said:


> I only have 1 suggestion... take the y out of your thread title... it’s looking pretty Dutch to me.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Maybe one of these days....... 





Patriot said:


> Nice read. I definitely have some inspiration now stepping into a high tech setup.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Thank-you. If you ever have any questions, ask away.


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Nothing to crazy to update. 

Still not happy with the layout, I need to figure out some mid ground plants. I moved the R. Mac forward and to the right more. Started the 'street' of difformis in the front right and have it trailing to the back right, we'll see how it fills in. I'm thinking once it starts to fill in, it will crowd out the sedoides and I'll have to remove it. Started to expand the grouping of 53b so I can eventually move it off center, either to right or left we'll see once I remove the curly what looks better.
Still need to figure out the left side, it currently sucks ass! I haven't moved the 'curly' out since I have no where to put it. I was able to sell a little and offered a some for free on my local forum, no takers. It'll be a shame but next step is to bin it..... 
Pogo E. seems to be coming around, new tops are not stunted. There maybe hope for this plant after all. Moss walls are really starting to take off, a few bare areas that I will have fill in once I take them out for a trimming. 

On another note, I spent a couple hours messing around with different bulb combinations. I have pictures of each combo but can't remember which picture goes with which combo. Going to mess around with them again on the weekend, this time I will actually take a picture of the bulb combo along with a full tank shot so I can compare them. Burr was kind enough to give me some suggestion and look at the FTS and give feed back. We both agreed that the moss walls really make it tough to find the right combination. If you try and highlight the back moss wall the rest of the tank is too green and washed out, on the reverse if you try and highlight the foreground plants the back wall is basically blacked out. 

This is the only combo I actually took a picture of the bulbs and the tank itself. First shot is with all bulbs on, I love the look of the back moss wall but the rest of the tank is crap. For shats and giggles I took one with the 420 and 633 on, reds are popp'n!

Front to Back- PowerVeg FS UV, PowerVeg 633, PowerVeg 420 and another PowerVeg FS UV


All Bulbs


633 and 420 only


Just a random FTS from last night, I believe bulbs are 420, Superflora, FS UV and 633


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## AgMa (Jan 19, 2017)

Wow, there is a lot of light in the second picture!
Have you ever measured par?
You could try FS UV rear to highlight the moss wall and a 3000k or 4000k in front.
Or (front to back):
Flora
420
633
FS uv


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

AgMa said:


> Wow, there is a lot of light in the second picture!
> Have you ever measured par?
> You could try FS UV rear to highlight the moss wall and a 3000k or 4000k in front.
> Or (front to back):
> ...


The above is very close if not what you see in the last FTS shot in the post above.

I did some quick Par reading a month or so back. PAR reading where in and around 120 at sub with the following combination of bulbs. 
F to B 6400K, 633, 420 and 3000k 

I would think the combo from the post above would be very similar. 

Here is the post where I test PAR. 

*EDIT*: The last FTS is actually a Purple Plus, Flora, 633, FS UV. Front to Back


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Always love the shots with different combinations of bulbs.

Sometimes folks are debating camera settings, but the color of the light makes a huge difference, as you just demonstrated.

And I do see how getting the right color on that moss can be a trick. I remember Joe spent quite a bit of time getting the right combo when he put his in. 

All in all the tank is looking great to me. Sometimes we are our own worst critics.


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Greggz said:


> Always love the shots with different combinations of bulbs.
> 
> Sometimes folks are debating camera settings, but the color of the light makes a huge difference, as you just demonstrated.
> 
> ...


Thanks Greegz.

I am next in line to get the local clubs Apogee MQ-510 PAR Meter, the same one I used to measure PAR in the 75 Weed Farm about a year or so ago. I signed up about 4 months ago and just got emailed Monday to say if it returned on time I can come pick it up on Saturday. 

Anyways, I plan to spend a good amount of time playing with bulb combinations. I'll capturing what it looks with an unaltered picture and get some PAR reading for each combination while I'm at it. Probably a good thing to have documented for future reference. 

I'm been thinking about selling my current six bulb Tek fixture that I use on the 75 and purchasing the same fixture I am using for the rimless but in a six bulb unit. Not that I need anymore PAR but it would be cool to see how things look with different six bulb combinations compared to four bulbs.


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Found this interesting so I thought I'd share. 

The other day I decided to move my filter outlets, just because. 

Before the move the left side (Co2 output) outflow was directed to the front and center of the tank aimed upward to give some good surface agitation. 
The right side was aimed right across the back of the tank, again aimed at the surface to create good surface agitation. 

Basically what I did was was lower the left side output which created no surface agitation at all. The right output was also aimed at the front/center of the tank with very minimal surface agitation. 

The following day I had to add a good 3/4" of water to the tank which reduced the surface movement on the right side even more. Anyways I had a look at my Apex graph and was surprised to see how moving the output nozzles effect my Co2 levels and my off gassed Co2 levels. 

The first hand drawn red line on the left is when I moved the the output nozzles. The second red line is when I added the water which reduced surface movement even more. The Graph speaks for it self how surface agitation effects your Co2 levels. By reducing the surface from added the extra water dropped my Co2 from 6.33 to about 6.18 and of course the reverse when it came to how much Co2 was off gassed over night. Normally my pH off gases to about 7.8 it only got as high as 6.9 last night. Makes you go hmmmmm.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Interesting chart and post.

As expected, less surface agitation = less off gassing. The graph is a great illustration of how that works.

But here's the thing some may need to consider. In a heavily stocked tank like mine, oxygen levels are very important. If I do the same with my tank, fish go to the surface pretty quick. Bows like an oxygen rich environment, and are sensitive to low levels.

And even more interesting will be to see how the plants like it. Will less oxygen affect them in any way? I have no clue but will be interested to see what happens.


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## Hendy8888 (Mar 6, 2008)

I was doing the same thing today as I refilled the co2. Having a sump there are more areas that I can adjust but I am amazed how small of a change impacts the ph. Having a ph monitor or controller to read .01 increments really opens your eyes to how the flow through a system affects the co2.


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Greggz said:


> And even more interesting will be to see how the plants like it. Will less oxygen affect them in any way? I have no clue but will be interested to see what happens.


Plants are not going to find out, things are back to how they were before. I like seeing the consistent up and down of my pH cycle. 



Hendy8888 said:


> I was doing the same thing today as I refilled the co2. Having a sump there are more areas that I can adjust but I am amazed how small of a change impacts the ph. Having a ph monitor or controller to read .01 increments really opens your eyes to how the flow through a system affects the co2.


Yup doesn't take much to effect your Co2. 

Having these types of 'toys' are not needed, but why not! Its kinda cool to have it keep track of tank details. I probably would have never seen this if I was using my old pH monitor that didn't data log. I have yet to set it up as a controller, I'll try it one of these days.


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Ya, ya, Its been over a month since I last posted something. Nothing really new and busy with xmas and all.

Thinks are still rolling along, plants don't stop growing. Its busy times like xmas when you start to wonder, what the hell am I thinking have 4 tanks plus an experimental emersed set-up (more on this when I have time) to take care of. 

Just finished a trim and water change on the tank so don't mind all the bubbles. Still need to trim down the Ambulia, the R.Mac is not making the colour cut for me so it will probably be replaced with some L. palustrus, which will be much more of a focal point. I had to hack the crap out of the Nymphoides hydrophylla 'Taiwan', it was so out of control. That plus the difformis on that side of the tank is a maintenance nightmare! The moss wall is also driving me nuts, my crappy sawing skills are starting to show. I find big clumps of moss just floating around the tank, because they fall off the wall. Anyways a quick FTS for you guys.




I mentioned the moss wall driving me nut. I did a little experiment where I sandwiched some moss between two panels of plastic mess and throw it in weed farm. Low and behold it grew very nice and the best part is does not fall out at all...... Of course it grows a lot slower, but it will be so worth it in the long run. So this is what I will be doing with the moss wall in the rimless in the coming weeks.


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Looking at the above photo, here are my off the cuff remarks to myself!

-I need to get rid of the P. erectus in the back left corner. The sword just blends into the background, the ambulia behind it would make it stand up more.

-Other then colour the Persicaria sp. 'Kawagoeanum' and '53b' are way to similar in texture. What to do, what to do!

-R.mac does not have enough contrast, L.palustris would definitely stand out in the spot. (Photo is with lots of red light and makes other things look like crap)

-Maybe allow Hydrocotyle sp."Japan" to spread more to right and a little closer to the Lobelia.

-Not sure about the right side, but something has to change.... If I remove the ambulia, make the difformis group bigger.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

I really like the moss mesh experiment there, seems like it can work quite well with some patience. Can't wait to see what you do with it in the coming weeks/ months.


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## Hendy8888 (Mar 6, 2008)

What about if you replace the erectus with the ambulia since it is tall and gives you the bright green still. I feel the macrandra is better suited for its current spot then the L.palustris but you need it to be looking good. I just think L.palustris' angled unruly growth doesn't fit there since you can see the entire plant from the front. L. Glandulosa, myriophyllum tuberculatum, or pantanal (if your looking for a challenge) would be nice and easy to make a v shape with the tops and give you that colour pop. I love the lobelia, just wish it wasnt dead center, and for some reason I feel like the helferi group needs to pick up and move slightly right to be centered between the two groups. On the right side I don't know.. I'm not a huge fan of difformis in general but it's a nice colour green. Maybe grow it tall and put an angled line of acmella repens in front of it.

I'm no dutchy but thought I would give it a go and see what you think...


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Woah didnt take that moss long! I feel your pain, lol

The plastic mesh where you doubled it up, is that the flexible art mesh like Im using? Seems like it would take a lot of zip ties to keep it pressed together enough.

However you do it, you're gonna have to trim it short on a regular basis. Like mowing an HC carpet. 

Because if the base layer ever starts turning brown and dying, which it will if you let it get too thick, then its going to detach itself regardless. Not to mention having an entire layer of decaying plant matter, which brings its own set of problems....

You need to try a different bulb in the very back. Thats why P erectus doesnt look good and the moss looks brown in a few spots. Need a 6500K or something with a lot of green back there. 

Is that the 3000K? Need to put that one in front or second place


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

burr740 said:


> Woah didnt take that moss long! I feel your pain, lol
> 
> The plastic mesh where you doubled it up, is that the flexible art mesh like Im using? Seems like it would take a lot of zip ties to keep it pressed together enough.
> 
> ...


Yes same plastic mesh, just white. You are correct it would take a butt load of ties to hold it together. 

I took out the left wall today to trim and the moss was falling out in big clumps so I said screw it and put it back.

In that photo I only have a red and blue bulb on which are in the middle, thats why everything looks 'off'.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

I really like the look of the moss walls, and have considered them for my 120G.

But seeing the amount time and effort you are putting into them makes me think twice.

I applaud your efforts, but doubt I have the stamina to do the same. 

And really, same things goes for creating a real Dutch layout. So much more difficult than most imagine. Growing plants is a just a one part of the equation (and you have that part down pretty very, very well!). Again, you are to be commended just for going down that road. 

And as usual, tank is looking fantastic.


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## vijay_06 (Apr 11, 2017)

Would love to see an update on one of the nicest tanks I have seen in the forum [emoji4]. What are your Macros dosing level and pattern (front loaded vs spread out)? Also, are you still staying at 3x 0.3 ppm Fe Micros dosing? Thank you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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