# humic acid



## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Unless KH is very low,I think maybe KH of source water is what is causing pH to bounce back moreso than effect of carbon .
Cutting source water with R/O water before changes would help lower the pH, KH and pH would remain more stable for fishes,invert's.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

kh is only 5 from tap.. gh is about 4
after peat its 3

RO is currently not an option so i am looking for an alternative solution


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

Instead of carbon, try using purigen


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

acitydweller said:


> Instead of carbon, try using purigen


Yup, purigen doesn't seem to raise my pH after using my peat-filtered water but keeps it crystal clear.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

WELL that's easy enough
still as an experiment ten.. do think this stuff would be safe to use??
hydroponics shops sell the liquid humic acid at 22%.. what about that stuff???


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

HD, funny that you raised the subject today. im about to test the humic/fulvic theory out myself in a spare tank. Im trying my hardest to source a second 20 gallon tank to relocate my neos to free up a 5g for this. If nothing pans out in the next day or so, im going to bite the bullet and get a new tank from petland.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

really.... i was just thinking about biting the bullet and ordering some and testing out how much i'd need to ad to five gallons to produce a small ph change and try that on the tank even with shrimp in it

im more of a jump headfirst kinda guy.. sometimes it does help to have a little reassurance though


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

i know what you mean. Have a read here (http://www.humichealth.info/hungheavymetal.html) I've been look into minerals derived from leonardite as test. Remember you'll have to work on the gram scale as you notice mosura and BW pretty much use this stuff sparingly, unlike Montmorillonite which cant be overdosed (allegedly). There is a risk of bringing the water parameters below 6ph which actually would be detrimental to beneficial bacteria.

There isn't a lot of talk about it but the reality is most beneficial bacteria have difficulty surviving in such acidic water which attributes to the sensativity of animals in this environment.


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## chibikaie (Aug 2, 2012)

acitydweller said:


> I'm trying my hardest to source a second 20 gallon tank


I actually have a spare 20 gallon long that I could sell/trade. I don't think I could lug it on a train into Manhattan, but if we can meet somewhere accessible by car, you have dibs.


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## Zenzu (Mar 23, 2012)

I'm having a hard time understanding why R/O isn't an option when you can get an R/O DI unit for around 100ish bucks on *internet auction site* Seems like you are spending quite a bit of money and time doing things the hard way.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Because i dont wanna go down the ro route. I have no place to store the ro water.. and if i get an ro system i need it to be big enoug to do all my tanks..

The only place i have room for storage water is outside and im not gonna have a heating bill just for water in the winter


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

I ordered some humic acid (advertised as garden fert), just a few hours ago... getting it Sat or Mon and going to dose my CRS tank, if you want to wait for my results


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

i surely will

what's its concentration?


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

> 1 pound package of water soluble humic acid powder extracted from
> 
> ground leonardite, and oxidized from lignite. minimum of 80% humic acids
> 
> ...


Why do not mix with calcium nitrate?

FOR HYDROPONIC USE APPLY AT THE DILUTION RATE OF 1/8 OF A TEASPOON PER GALLON <- I'm going to dose half this...


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## ThatGuyWithTheFish (Apr 29, 2012)

So this is what BW humic is, right? If so, just get it to that concentration and follow their siding instructions. Beats tinkering around to find a good regime.


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

xenxes said:


> Why do not mix with calcium nitrate?


Both acids (humic & calcium nitrate) will react with calcium and will precipitate and be insoluable rendering it useless for plant applications. However when added in diluted form, the potency of the acid isnt strong enough to ract with the calcium (nitrate). Not really applicable to our test since we wont be adding in high concentrations. and remember to check that there's no potash!


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

Useless is better than poison death trap! POTAAAAAAAAAASH!!!!!!! How do I check for potash? does it taste like potato?

Or.. put it in my mouth and see if it's salty?


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

Unless your purchase is pure 100%, there's usually a filler like seaweed and amino acids.

here's one seller listing this description:

3.5 oz/100g BioAg CytoPlus Humic Acid Concentrate with Seaweed & Micronutrients. New, as pictured.

Contains concentrated humic acids with micronutrients and seaweed. Stimulates soil microbial activity and increases plant growth and yield by supplying humic substances and seven micronutrients required for plant growth.

*Soluble Potash 7.5%*
Sulfur 3.25%
Boron 0.25%
Cobalt 0.035%
Copper 0.13%
Iron 0.9%
Manganese 0.8%
Molybden 0.05%
Zinc 0.5%
Humic Acid 40%

Did you order the liquid or powder form?


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

"1 pound package of water soluble humic acid powder extracted from ground leonardite, and oxidized from lignite. minimum of 80% humic acids"

Powder. Doesn't say what the other 20% is.

How fast would potash kill shrimp? I guess I should use one as a guinea pig.


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## Stinkmonky (Apr 16, 2012)

my tap runs about 7.8-8 and i tested my rain water at 6.8 today lol. could be a cheap and easy alternative to peat moss.


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## chibikaie (Aug 2, 2012)

Potash is a form of potassium. I forget exact formula. I'd be more worried about copper.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

I found the same package then xenes. Was gonna start our with 1/32 teaspoon doses in a five gallon bucket to note the actual drop for my water before applying to shrimp tank

Why is potash bad again?


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

Haha same e-Bay guy? he had immaculate reviews, but obviously not selling the stuff for shrimps.

It's used as an inverticide like copper (sodium potash), fine in very small quantities, but kills them in large concentration.


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

weird* double post /delete


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> Why is potash bad again?


Muriate of potash aka Potassium chloride. It is also used in medicine, lethal injections, scientific applications, food processing, and as a sodium-free substitute for table salt (sodium chloride).

taken from their wiki.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

WHY would u wanna kill terrrestrial inverts? they help with soil decomposition

thanks city dweller!! so its good stuff then


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

Just making sure neither you nor xenxes OD in the tanks... its potent stuff.
Im going to place an order for humic acid this weekend as well. i have too many shrimp tanks and running through these products quicker than i can afford.

Looking for alternatives to raise tds as well without severely impacting GH/KH. any tips?


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

acitydweller said:


> Just making sure neither you nor xenxes OD in the tanks... its potent stuff.
> Im going to place an order for humic acid this weekend as well. i have too many shrimp tanks and running through these products quicker than i can afford.
> 
> Looking for alternatives to raise tds as well without severely impacting GH/KH. any tips?


 aquarium salt.. it's absolutely raise ur tds like nobodies business

or gh booster. 1/8 teaspoon of gh booster in my 10 gallon ads abou 40-60 tds and change the GH by about 2ppm or 0.1 degree hardness


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

Well if the humic acid has potassium chloride it'll raise TDS a ton, I'm going to test it first in a 5g plastic tub I use as my QT before dosing, and probably leave a couple shrimp in overnight to test.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

KEEP ME UPDATED

otherwise i may try to pick some up from a local hydroponics store if its still open in the diluted liquid form


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

just a heads up. Barley also contains humic acid. Do any of you use it in your tanks ?


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

no but maybe we should look into it


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## bigstick120 (May 23, 2005)

Interesting to find this as I was just thinking about using this product in my tanks. I use humic acid on my lawn. Along with kelp to condition my soil. Works amazingly well in my sand and clay soil. I buy my stuff here if it helps
http://www.kelp4less.com/product-category/humic-acid/

Havent tried it in a tank just yet, but may start playing with it a little.


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

Humic acid has a pH of 6.0 btw, but will tan waters brown, not much different than just tearing up IALs. This is just from reading, haven't gotten my powder yet.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

yeah but ials don't lower my ph very much
dont midn some tea water but i'd have to go black just to get a good drop. hench the humic acid idea


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## saddletramp (May 19, 2012)

Following this thread brings a thought to mind. What about using oak leaves? Has anyone tried them? 
Beech leaves and oak leaf mold are used to grow "blackwater" Crypts successfully.
They are supposed to be quite acid. A good percentage of people in North America have easy access to them. All around the world there are tree leaves which are quite acid.
What would be nice about this solution is that it would be a natural one. Plus, there are other natural substances released which may be beneficial. Remember, it works in nature!!
Bill


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

Some use oak leaves in place of IAL (Indian Almond Leaves). I don't know if the tannins are all that different. All dried leaves have humic acid content, lower the pH of your water, and tans it brown. 

The amount of a pH drop depends on how many leaves you're using, the volume and the KH (buffering capability) of your water.

I'm sure MGOPS comes with plenty of humic acid content already, since it's resulted from the decomposition of plant matter. Wood chips, bog mud are high in humic content.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

i have magnolia leaves. VERY ACIDIC. but im not sure if they are safe for fish.. the dried leaves kill just about every plant man has tried to grow.. even monkey grass has a hard tiem surviving underneath the magnolia tree. most weeds perish as well.


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

Driftwood will also release humic acid overtime, more I think about it, more I think I don't need to add it, lol.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> i have magnolia leaves. VERY ACIDIC. but im not sure if they are safe for fish.. the dried leaves kill just about every plant man has tried to grow.. even monkey grass has a hard tiem surviving underneath the magnolia tree. most weeds perish as well.


I believe that's because the leaves block the light. Same thing as putting a layer of bark mulch down to stop weeds from growing. No light, no weeds. That wouldn't apply to what you're doing.


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## saddletramp (May 19, 2012)

I grow Crypts emersed. All I have to do is put some dried leaves on the bottom of the tank or container and the pots will hold them down.
It would probably be fine if one put ground up leaves in the substrate, or if the leaves were composted for a Season and then used in the substrate?
Anyone's thoughts?
Bill


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

just got confirmation from two sellers for one of those Up to 80% pure humic items...

both mention it contains 4% potash, which at that level + dilution in water, is fairly nonlethal. sort of like people dosing NPK ... Nitrogen, Phosphate, and Potash fertilizer (potassium).


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

Got it today, along with chitosan and bee pollen, lol... so much for my keep it simple philosophy.

Did not realize it was this concentrated, dropped a few pellets in a tupperware to test pH, but I can't test this using a color kit...










Ended up throwing a few pellets into the tanks, what's the worst that could happen? ... TDS shot up by ~10.

One of my more stupid buys, I'm sure driftwood, IAL, provides more than enough humic acid. Ohwell, I can always use it to alter soil pH of some of my terrestrial plants. No more unnecessary supplements... bee pollen is nice though.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

xenxes said:


> Got it today, along with chitosan and bee pollen, lol... so much for my keep it simple philosophy.
> 
> Did not realize it was this concentrated, dropped a few pellets in a tupperware to test pH, but I can't test this using a color kit...
> 
> ...


Oh god.. please don't tell me you threw some in the 20L housing lots of expensive shrimps..


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Keep your bee pollen in freezer so it doesn't go bad. Needs to be stored in cold.


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

diwu13 said:


> Oh god.. please don't tell me you threw some in the 20L housing lots of expensive shrimps..


I did. It doesn't look bad, but the 9g is very brown.



mordalphus said:


> Keep your bee pollen in freezer so it doesn't go bad. Needs to be stored in cold.


TY for the tip!


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

remember that you need to use all of these things sparingly. I ordered some humic, bee pollen and some chitosan (pill form). Im upgrading my shrimp tanks at the moment so it may be a few days till i get to where you are.... thanks M for the pollen storage tip.


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## bigstick120 (May 23, 2005)

You are going to have brown water to get the PH drop from humic acid. I guess I should have pointed that out!


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

acitydweller said:


> remember that you need to use all of these things sparingly. I ordered some humic, bee pollen and some chitosan (pill form). Im upgrading my shrimp tanks at the moment so it may be a few days till i get to where you are.... thanks M for the pollen storage tip.


Lol you ordered all 3 things too?

First thing I did, without thinking, threw in pellets, a dash of chitosan, bee pollen into every tank. XD


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

for the record..i was browsing my LFS and i found blackwater extract with humic acid

i was at 25 times the reccomended dose for a 5 gallon. and there was no measurable ph drop.. and the bottle clearly stated there is a slight acidic drop in ph.. PFFFT 

so. im gonna order some concentrated humic acid and see what's what

otherwise, its back to peat and purigen for clear ph lowered water


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

pH buffering takes some time, especially if your KH is high. How soon did you test it? I'd wait a day at least.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

i tested over the course of a 1 hour period.. i ended up watering my plants
kh is 4-5 depending on which day i test


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

xenxes said:


> Lol you ordered all 3 things too?
> 
> First thing I did, without thinking, threw in pellets, a dash of chitosan, bee pollen into every tank. XD


Yep. Cant let you have all the fun. Besides, im doing a massive scale back on plants and shrimp right now and redoing all 5 of my tanks... crazy huh...

The first and only supplement test ive done to date has been with calcium montmorillonite. I've gotten pretty good survival on a tank that only used this with no Borneo Wild/shirakura/mosura products used as an isolated test. The detox properties are immense, and i have been giving out sample baggies at our local meets. I strongly recommend using this if you arent already.



HD Blazingwolf said:


> i tested over the course of a 1 hour period.. i ended up watering my plants
> kh is 4-5 depending on which day i test


You'll likely need several hours for a more accurate reading. Wouldnt want to incur a rapid PH swing either. 4-5 is considered enough to buffer so i would use a lower kh to test again.


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

calcium montmorillonite? you use it to absorb heavy metals? Will this do?

http://www.amazon.com/Microbe-Lift-...19611&sr=1-1&keywords=calcium+montmorillonite

or eBay 190328741402? pH 9.7, wow.


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

Yep. that's the exact one... 

There's also no danger of overdosing this stuff in the tank. Shrimp will benefit either digested or naturally through their shells.

All Natural 
--The final product contains no chemical treatments or additives
Kills germs
--Extremely potent antibacterial, antitoxin, adsorptive properties
Effective internally
--Capable of entering bloodstream as a salutary substance
Detoxifies
--Attracts and absorbs heavy metals and poisons, allowing safe elimination
Buffered mineral payload
--Releases minerals in a controlled release process
Long shelf life
--Does not expire, degrade or decompose like bio-matter
Non-Toxic
--Safe for internal and topical use, when used as intended

http://www.californiaearthminerals.com/science/clay-minerals-research.php


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

Wait, which one, the eBay one or the Amazon one?

I'll have to throw together a guide to all these DIY supplements sometime.


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

Amazon. the one with the koi's on the container. sorry, didnt look at the ebay one till now. That one's been further processed. Both come in powder form. The clay you can directly dose into the tank. No premixing required.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

You can overdose montmorilmonite, it does raise GH and TDS, however it takes quite a bit of it.


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

Overdose will also buffer pH up a ton no? 9.7...

Anyway I got the koi container, lol. Argh, stop making me throw more random chemicals into the tanks!


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

i am using pinches per dose. The container comes with a serving spoon along with the dosages per 100 gallons per spoon. The most Ive used at one time was a quarter spoon (25 gallon dose) on a 16 gallon. If you follow the serving portion on the container, you'll be right as rain.

No effect on PH from what i have tested, though it does raise TDS 10-15 ppm. This tank remained a step acidic at 6.9 due to other properties in the tank DW, IAL, etc...


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

When I start my next tank, think I'll mix a portion of calcium montmorilmonite and a portion of humic acid directly into the dirt substrate, then cap. Slow release!

Hmm... making osmocote pill caps inserted with montmorilmonite and humic? I guess you want more of the montmorilmonite in the water column huh? Whereas humic is more of a plant fertilizer.


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

If you are going to add Humic, consider following the BW guidelines to be on the safe side.

Use Humic when you are setting up a new tank, observes juvenile shrimp dying or when the population growth is stagnant.

1. Use 30g / 60x30cm tank when setting up a new shrimp tank, sprinkle them below or above the substrate layer, or put them in a mesh bag in the filter.

2. Use 60g / 60x30cm tank when setting up a new planted (shrimp) tank, sprinkle Humic below the base of the substrate layer with the fertilizers or put them in a mesh bag in the filter.

To apply Humic above the substrate layer, please soak them in water for up to 15minutes as they may float due to its dryness. Dosage lasts up to 6 months.

im going t sprinkle the substrate with calcium montmorilmonite and humic in the area of the tank sans UGF coverage. More calcium for the shrimps, smaller portion of humic for the ph buffering +which happens to benefit root growth. Not sure if you want to add too much osmocote as it does a fair bit leeching. might skew your test with a 3rd variable.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

MUWAHAHAHA lets play mad scientist!!


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## hedge_fund (Jan 1, 2006)

Great thread. I am glad there are other crazy people out there that test stuff on their shrimp like me. Do you guys remember my creatine thread where I was feeding it to my cherries? haha


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

Okay so.. my 9g that turned brown (added too much), pH lowered from 7.0 to ~6.6 overnight. One Super Tiger is berried as a result, not sure from humic or from the chitosan or both, or coincidence


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

if no one tries new things.. we will never get any further!!!

creatine??? did tey grow massive muscles?


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

xenxes said:


> Okay so.. my 9g that turned brown (added too much), pH lowered from 7.0 to ~6.6 overnight. One Super Tiger is berried as a result, not sure from humic or from the chitosan or both, or coincidence


i think coincidence.. berried happens as a result of ovaries being full.


correct me if im wrong. but ovaries don't get full unless the shrimp is ready to reproduce. which would mean water conditions are to their liking??

or is it that ovaries get full all the time and the eggs are tossed because they are not happy?


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

Well chitosan induces molting (if the shrimp is otherwise ready), breeding soon follows.


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## hedge_fund (Jan 1, 2006)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> creatine??? did tey grow massive muscles?


Nope, they looked the same to me after the experiment. :icon_mrgr


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

bummer, i was hoping their voice would get deeper, grow a few extra exoskeletons, and get some beefy legs


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

hedge_fund said:


> Great thread. I am glad there are other crazy people out there that test stuff on their shrimp like me. Do you guys remember my creatine thread where I was feeding it to my cherries? haha


Wasn't that the Diesel experiment back then 












xenxes said:


> Okay so.. my 9g that turned brown (added too much), pH lowered from 7.0 to ~6.6 overnight. One Super Tiger is berried as a result, not sure from humic or from the chitosan or both, or coincidence


That's why you test one thing at a time. lol



HD Blazingwolf said:


> if no one tries new things.. we will never get any further!!!


This only happens in the advanced stages of anything where we go off and try new things out. I'm just looking for cheap alternatives really but anything to keep these guys living longer and looking better will do.

I also find sharing these experiments openly over keeping it a secret helps the hobby, community and makes shrimping easier for all. So why not if its a win-win for everyone


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## bigstick120 (May 23, 2005)

hedge_fund said:


> Great thread. I am glad there are other crazy people out there that test stuff on their shrimp like me. Do you guys remember my creatine thread where I was feeding it to my cherries? haha


Creatine is pretty much just sugar.


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## hedge_fund (Jan 1, 2006)

bigstick120 said:


> Creatine is pretty much just sugar.


Absolutely not. Do you remember when Mark McGwire got in trouble for using it back in the late 90s? This isn't the forum for it but if I posted my pic you would be a believer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatine_supplements

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatine


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## chibikaie (Aug 2, 2012)

Wow.

You could have taken the first solution you made, and diluted it further until you could check it. Just keep track of your math.

What is the bee pollen for?


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

Yeah I was being dumb, I didn't think it was THAT concentrated. 10 pellets turned that tupperware black. 3 pellets turned my 9g brown.

Strangely enough, I tested the pH to 6.6 this morning, this evening it is back up 6.8-7.0, the water is a faint yellow. All I have is a sponge + bio filter. Really curious how the tank can correct itself, what's doing the buffering? Plants? I have dirt + sand + inert gravel.

Bee pollen is a good baby food (gets everywhere in the tank).


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## bigstick120 (May 23, 2005)

hedge_fund said:


> Absolutely not. Do you remember when Mark McGwire got in trouble for using it back in the late 90s? This isn't the forum for it but if I posted my pic you would be a believer.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatine_supplements
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatine


WAY!!!! Off topic, but MG took HGH, not creatine.


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

xenxes said:


> Yeah I was being dumb, I didn't think it was THAT concentrated. 10 pellets turned that tupperware black. 3 pellets turned my 9g brown.
> 
> Strangely enough, I tested the pH to 6.6 this morning, this evening it is back up 6.8-7.0, the water is a faint yellow. All I have is a sponge + bio filter. Really curious how the tank can correct itself, what's doing the buffering? Plants? I have dirt + sand + inert gravel.
> 
> Bee pollen is a good baby food (gets everywhere in the tank).


That dosage should have lasted a few months if not weeks... What is your kh gh? Somethings buffering...


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

GH 6 KH 2, water shouldn't buffer much. Does any kind of calcium buffer up? Could it be dissolved calcium from Ken's veggie sticks? I feed quite a bit... 2 sticks in the morning 2 sticks at night usually.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Dirt will likely absorb the humic acid. Its very beneficial to soil


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## hedge_fund (Jan 1, 2006)

Keep the updates going guys......I've been following this thread.

One of you should make the water very concentrated with the humic acid and drop some cherries for a few days. That's probably a good barometer to see if you can overdose on the stuff.


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

Just received my Humic acid in the mail along with some blue ramshorns (though they look more brown)


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## chibikaie (Aug 2, 2012)

Nifty.

Perhaps some of the particles settled out? Or your water's better buffered than you thought


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

Sorry for the delay. Haven't been able to dose humic yet but i did start feeding Bee Pollen. Boy they love it!


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

I think we should revisit this topic, why is humic acid used? Potentially helpful to plants but harmful to fauna?

I've been doing some light reading and humic acid has been shown to be a chemical stressor in mice, cats, and daphnia. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term="Humic+Substances/toxicity"[MAJR]

This was also an interesting read... http://www.hoodridge.com/media/humates and humic acids.pdf



> Most of the time, under the term Humate, people understand and distribute *raw lignite*. The
> problem is the following: in natural forms Humic acids, being a part of lignites or peat,
> are always connected into insoluble forms of calcium, magnesium, aluminum forms, and
> there they are low biologically active and insoluble. Recommend application norms of
> ...


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## SpecGrrl (Jul 26, 2012)

xenxes said:


> Bee pollen is a good baby food (gets everywhere in the tank).


Oh good to know!

I can just open up a capsule?


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

I've conducted a test by adding a teaspoon to my new 20 gallon (75.7 liter) tank with CRS.

PH started with 6.8. 

Testing conducted 48 hours later appeared to be borderline 6.4.

Added half a tea spoon last night.

Sorry i should have included my other readings too... GH: 3 KH: 1
So there shouldnt be much in the way of buffering the PH at these levels. Hoping to see some change in PH over the next day or so since the last dose was within 18 hours ago. Also, i got the power form, which goes everywhere. do the pellets melt over time or do you crush them?


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

Yea it buffers pH a lot. My KH is only 2 so not much water pH buffer, but I think my soil buffers it a bit... so it took about 3+ days for the pH reading to accurately show. My 7pH tanks dropped to 6.4 and 6.2 respectively. I added um.. 6 pellets to the 20L and 3 pellets to the 9g, lol. I'm not using this stuff anymore.


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

you better not, unless you want to bring the tank down into the nether regions of 6.0


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

I'm surprised my cardinals handled 6 pH! Must have been at that level for 1-2 weeks. Yikes.


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

OMG. loco man!!!!


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

Yea.. they're real troopers:










Or I'm really lucky. I don't know. I do only see 8 together now, maybe 1 or 2 more elsewhere in the tank, don't know if the others are lost in the jungle or dead.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

glad to see this thread come back!!

and those are some very pretty shrimp!!


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## chibikaie (Aug 2, 2012)

Totally more confused now than before. I thought black water loving fish and/or shrimp were the whole point of trying out humic acid? In addition to benefits to plants.

I've been trying to get my tap water better buffered (without using phosphate buffers or mysterious compounds), but if I get the alkalinity and hardness up, the pH skyrockets (it hit 8.2 at one point; GH was 5 or 6 but something ate the carbonates so that was only 3). So I was actually wondering if I used tiny amounts of humic acid in conjunction with calcium carbonate, if that might even out and set me back at pH 7.6 while leaving decent amounts of alkalinity and calcium in the water. (I tried throwing both peat and cuttlebone in the filter, and the pH continued to rise.)

I don't want to futz too much with my water chemistry, but having super soft tap water does make me nervous.


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

@chibikaie, its actually to our benefit. If our GH and KH were +8 each, then R/O would be your only option due to buffering. it all depends on how you are raising gh/kh as my PH is locked in at 6.5. Humic acid has lowered it slightly to 6.4-6.3ish (watching this over the next 24-48 hours) to assess dosage.

All i have done to my tap is Prime/Shirakura CA+ to raise tds &GH and now adding a bit of humic to lower ph (and presumably tds)


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## chibikaie (Aug 2, 2012)

Ah. I was using straight calcium carbonate, or CaCO3 and sodium bicarbonate, depending on where my KH was relative to GH. Is there something that would work better, in large quantities? I thought about using the Seachem acid and alkaline buffers, but almost no one seems to do that.

I also thought about checking the effect of used tea leaves on water chemistry, since tea is known to contain tannins. Couldn't remember if there was a beneficial effect to the tannins themselves.


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

If you were going to rely on chemical tuning, sachem might be your safest bet.an alternative would be the API ph down but there are varying reviews on longevity and stability.

Baking soda helps raise gh and kh and tds but at effectively adds mineral buffers. This route is largely preferred due to cost as he seachem alternative will easy run you $20+ for the acid buffer and neutralizer, which is recommended to be used together. The depth of the ph lowering will be dependent on your mixed ratio between the two products, per the label on the container. I haven't gone his route as I am looking to only lower maybe .2 ph. Not a wild swing by abpny means and easily attainable through a peat media pouch tossed into the filter or tank directly.

The tannins are beneficial to low ph critters. Something to do with detoxing and also helping the amino acids bind better in this environment. The tannins eventually go away over time with mechanical filtration, as least mine do sans carbon. Ial and alder cones also release tannins naturally but is a slower release compared to peat. I suggest taking the path of least resistance so that your water changes are much easier and require less preparation. Personally, I'm just looking for minor tweaks and testing humid, which seems to be doing what I am after, I mean a ph change over several days to a week is preferred over a quick swing of a few hours...


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## chibikaie (Aug 2, 2012)

Well, path of least resistance currently involves prayer that my alkalinity isn't all used up before the next water change. Not something I worry about that much with the low bioload shrimp tank, but the goldfish ... and the goldfish poo ... and the accompanying nitrification reactions ... let's just say that I am a little nervous. I need to find a balance somehow.


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## Minor Threat (Oct 6, 2012)

any updates on this? Does it hold the pH like how BorneoWild Humic does?


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## hedge_fund (Jan 1, 2006)

Are you guys still doing this experiment? Any updates?


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