# Don't Release Your Fish!



## babydragons (Mar 14, 2012)

Wow! I knew some places were having problems with pleco but this is amazing!


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## scapegoat (Jun 3, 2010)

let not focus so much on those releasing them, but instead focus on the fish stores that sell a fish that gets to 2' in length to folks buying 10g tanks.

these common pleco should be illegal to sell.


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

scapegoat said:


> let not focus so much on those releasing them, but instead focus on the fish stores that sell a fish that gets to 2' in length to folks buying 10g tanks.
> 
> these common pleco should be illegal to sell.


+1, along with a few other species.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

Wow what a haul! I'll bet they're a bear to clean. Plants are an even bigger problem. One stem could cause an invasion. Always freeze or microwave them well before disposing.


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## Indychus (Feb 21, 2013)

scapegoat said:


> let not focus so much on those releasing them, but instead focus on the fish stores that sell a fish that gets to 2' in length to folks buying 10g tanks.
> 
> these common pleco should be illegal to sell.


Exactly. When I first started out, the internet was not omnipresent, and you had to take in good faith that the person selling the fish was a good source of information. Not surprisingly, I was recommended a common pleco for my first tank (15 gallon). That tank also housed a jack dempsey and several red tail sharks, all on the advice of the LFS.


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## Clemsons2k (May 31, 2009)

I wouldn't say illegal, but there should definitely be more information available to people looking to get into aquariums. Thats the main issue I see every time I visit the pet store is just plain misinformation and lack of involvment by store employees. Employees should ask peoples intentions with the hope that they can help them properly set up an aquarium and pick proper inhabitants, instead of just trying to make profits off any dummy that walks in.


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## Mojo028 (Jan 25, 2013)

scapegoat said:


> let not focus so much on those releasing them, but instead focus on the fish stores that sell a fish that gets to 2' in length to folks buying 10g tanks.
> 
> these common pleco should be illegal to sell.


Totally agreed, my pleco got to be about 8 inches and I had to sell it to a local fish store because he wouldn't fit, and at that time I didn't really know my fish and the fish store failed to warn me also.


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## thelub (Jan 4, 2013)

There are a lot of upset pleco fans looking at that picture.

But as hobbyists that often keep highly invasive species of flora and fauna, it is up to us to properly dispose of any and all unwanted plants and animals. Even if it means euthanizing an animal, its better than letting it go into the wild and invading other natural inhabitants' ecosystems.


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## scapegoat (Jun 3, 2010)

Clemsons2k said:


> I wouldn't say illegal, but there should definitely be more information available to people looking to get into aquariums. Thats the main issue I see every time I visit the pet store is just plain misinformation and lack of involvment by store employees. Employees should ask peoples intentions with the hope that they can help them properly set up an aquarium and pick proper inhabitants, instead of just trying to make profits off any dummy that walks in.


there is plenty of information out there. ignorance on the part of the customer is forgivable, but not for the employee.

while i'm more "less government", i am pro government when it comes to protecting the environment from us. the common pleco should be illegal to sell. or at the very least require proof of proper housing.



thelub said:


> There are a lot of upset pleco fans looking at that picture.
> 
> But as hobbyists that often keep highly invasive species of flora and fauna, it is up to us to properly dispose of any and all unwanted plants and animals. Even if it means euthanizing an animal, its better than letting it go into the wild and invading other natural inhabitants' ecosystems.


it definitely is up to us. perhaps we should start developing an infographic to pass out to LFS's


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## BarbH (Feb 27, 2013)

Clemsons2k said:


> I wouldn't say illegal, but there should definitely be more information available to people looking to get into aquariums. Thats the main issue I see every time I visit the pet store is just plain misinformation and lack of involvment by store employees. Employees should ask peoples intentions with the hope that they can help them properly set up an aquarium and pick proper inhabitants, instead of just trying to make profits off any dummy that walks in.


This I completely agree with. This is a problem that I see common with most of your typical box stores. Every once in awhile you will get an employee that will know what they are talking about and ask the questions that need to be asked, but overall it seems like you get people that are working the fish areas that have very little knowledge of what it takes to keep fish. 

Yes people should take the time to research what it takes to keep an aquarium planted or not, but not everyone is going to. I have been a part of other forums in which the first post you see someone make is they just setup an aquarium and their fish are dying, or they are having issues with compatibility. Some of these issues could be avoided if the store that was selling these fish to people would take the time to educate their employees and in turn to educate their customers.

Sent from my SCH-R720 using Tapatalk 2


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## Clemsons2k (May 31, 2009)

scapegoat said:


> there is plenty of information out there. ignorance on the part of the customer is forgivable, but not for the employee.
> 
> while i'm more "less government", i am pro government when it comes to protecting the environment from us. the common pleco should be illegal to sell. or at the very least require proof of proper housing.
> 
> ...


Good luck with that. I've seen people try to do this many times and it never works. Big corporations just don't care, and unfortunately the local mom and pop places can't keep up with chain stores without using the same selling practices. If you question people too much they will take their business elsewhere. Not everyone buying aquariums are responsible people that WANT to learn.


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## thelub (Jan 4, 2013)

scapegoat said:


> it definitely is up to us. perhaps we should start developing an infographic to pass out to LFS's


Unfortunately, most LFS are just like any business in today's America, they're in to make money. If some dummy wants to buy a fish that don't' fit, they don't care, they're still making the money.


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## Knotyoureality (Aug 3, 2012)

I've had a couple interesting conversations with chain store employees and managers on this topic. While I don't agree, I can somewhat understand how they would see the following arguement as valid given their endless experience with the death-camp conditions that are the norm for many of their consumer's aquatic efforts:

The vast majority of fish will die from improper handling and neglect; that the consumer would buy such an inappropriate fish is pretty much proof that they're unlikely to be able to maintain it long enough for it to reach a problematic size.


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## Clemsons2k (May 31, 2009)

Knotyoureality said:


> I've had a couple interesting conversations with chain store employees and managers on this topic. While I don't agree, I can somewhat understand how they would see the following arguement as valid given their endless experience with the death-camp conditions that are the norm for many of their consumer's aquatic efforts:
> 
> The vast majority of fish will die from improper handling and neglect; that the consumer would buy such an inappropriate fish is pretty much proof that they're unlikely to be able to maintain it long enough for it to reach a problematic size.


Thats a very ignorant stance on their part. Just because a fish is "probably going to die" doesn't mean they shouldn't care.


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## dougolasjr (Mar 3, 2010)

I wonder what they did with all those fish?


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## zoragen (Nov 3, 2009)

My BF said he would take my "extra" pond snails & release them in the stream behind his house:eek5::eek5:

I told him you NEVER release ANY plant or animal EVER!!

I don't enjoy squishing them - but it's quick, merciful & SAFE.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

dougolasjr said:


> I wonder what they did with all those fish?


I woulda et em ifin i coulda skind em


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## thelub (Jan 4, 2013)

zoragen said:


> My BF said he would take my "extra" pond snails & release them in the stream behind his house:eek5::eek5:
> 
> I told him you NEVER release ANY plant or animal EVER!!
> 
> I don't enjoy squishing them - but it's quick, merciful & SAFE.


Unfortunately, its things like that that cause huge population explosions like Florida is dealing with right now with the African giant snails


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## Pdxseth (Apr 16, 2013)

Zorfox said:


> Wow what a haul! I'll bet they're a bear to clean. Plants are an even bigger problem. One stem could cause an invasion. Always freeze or microwave them well before disposing.


Microwaving is a great idea! I just bbq'd a ton of hygrophylia I wish I would have thought of microwaving.


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## Big O (Jun 28, 2011)

*Wow!*



thelub said:


> Unfortunately, its things like that that cause huge population explosions like Florida is dealing with right now with the African giant snails


that snail is awesome looking.
I would keep that as a pet. Is it aquatic?


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## Alplily (Jan 1, 2012)

A local photog caught this image recently... in Estes Park, CO at about 7,300 feet in a local pond. A great blue heron has snagged itself... a clearly non-native carp/goldfish. Very alarming as they can wreak havoc with native species and ecosystems. Let's hope the herons and mergansers eat them all.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

scapegoat said:


> ... i am pro government when it comes to protecting the environment from us. the common pleco should be illegal to sell. or at the very least require proof of proper housing....


Good intention VERY DANGEROUS territory allowing a bureaucrat to decide what is proper housing for pets. 

Our nation is founded on the pursuit of happiness until it affects other peoples freedoms. I'm all for punishing law breakers. I'm 100% against bans that punish law abiding citizens because a minority of criminals act illegally.


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## Sajacobs (Aug 24, 2012)

As a goldfish lover I got a link to this....

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwrel&v=5O8JFYetiqY

I agree with some of the posts. Why cants pet stores at least post the minimum gallons required for the fish someone wants to buy? As a dumb newbie the pet store told me I only needed 3 gallons for a goldfish! Really! Why don't pet stores post 20 gallons for one goldfish? Of course I would not have bought the fish and gotten completely hooked into the hobby.


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## bennyjam (Nov 6, 2012)

Yeah the reservoir in my hometown has a goldfish in it that's probably a foot and a half long. We were bass fishing once and this giant orange thing came swimming by. Clearly not a native species!


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Sajacobs said:


> ....Why cants pet stores at least post the minimum gallons required for the fish someone wants to buy? As a dumb newbie the pet store told me I only needed 3 gallons for a goldfish!....Why don't pet stores post 20 gallons for one goldfish? ....


No offence, you just brought up pet peeve, I deal with all the time with newbie dog owners in my business.

The same reason why Baskin-Robbins, McDonalds & Taco Bell don't post signs that say, "Our Junk food will make you fat, clog your arteries and eventually kill you".

We've become a nation that refuses to take personal responsibility for ourselves. We want "Big Brother" to hold our hand and wipe our bottoms for us.

Very candidly, people that won't do any research for themselves on a purchase of anything, pretty much deserve what they get when unrealistic expectations are not meet.


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## assasin6547 (Feb 6, 2013)

bennyjam said:


> Yeah the reservoir in my hometown has a goldfish in it that's probably a foot and a half long. We were bass fishing once and this giant orange thing came swimming by. Clearly not a native species!


I shot one with a .22 rifle at short range. :biggrin: They destroy good bass fishing spots by eating all the eggs and fry! It's pretty disappointing to know that your favorite pond has been infested. :icon_cry:

Also, plecos probably taste awful, I definitely wouldn't eat one.


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## Sajacobs (Aug 24, 2012)

DogFish said:


> No offence, you just brought up pet peeve, I deal with all the time with newbie dog owners in my business.
> 
> The same reason why Baskin-Robbins, McDonalds & Taco Bell don't post signs that say, "Our Junk food will make you fat, clog your arteries and eventually kill you".
> 
> ...


I completely agree. Im not into being hand held. My fish purchase was an impulse buy with outdated info on my part and completely wrong info from the pet store. When i bought my goldfish and learned the reality, i took responsibility. Every animal deserves that. 

Yet it would be great to have at least some info at the store....say on the price stuck to the tank? I noticed petco describes the fish on the tag but nothing about how many gallons for the fish. Just suggesting a simple way to provide info. Simple education can be incredibly helpful.....sort of like when your car manual tells you to get an oil change every 7,000 miles. Then it's up to you to get an oil change or not.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Maybe it's because I'm older & wiser...or...learned the hard way :icon_redf

Any new/1st time purchase should involve personal research vs. blind faith in a salesman.


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## Fishumms (Apr 21, 2010)

Haha. Didn't mean to start some crazy discussion. 

We have some HUGE goldfish in Lake Austin/ Lady Bird Lake. 

Yeah. Some people and their dogs. Oh man. Theres a whole "personal responsibility" conversation right there.


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## dprais1 (Sep 12, 2012)

I understand the whole idea of clerks trying to make sure I have proper setup to take care of fish I buy. 

But I really don't need a 17 year old who took a 2 hour training course on aquarium fishes to question what I'm buying. For that matter I don't take take kindly to anyone doing so. 

Most clerks would deny to sell you fish if you said you put potting mix in the tank. 

If i buy a mouse no one cares if I have a cage for it or if it goes into a snakes belly.

If I weigh 500lbs no one should deny me an ice cream cone.

Buying it should not be illegal but releasing it should because it infringes upon shared resources of the community or future community.

Need to address the problem not play round-about.


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## CPDzeke (Jan 4, 2013)

I honestly am probably half the age of most average pet shop clerks and I feel terrible when I am forced to stand by and they say false things to uneducated customers. I also probably have practically infinite times more knowledge than said clerks. However, maybe I will try to answer people's questions if I see them in line. Well, you never know.


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## Aulonocara_Freak (Feb 4, 2013)

thelub said:


> Unfortunately, its things like that that cause huge population explosions like Florida is dealing with right now with the African giant snails


I would use that snails shell for my shellies!!! Where can I get some?


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

dprais1 said:


> ....If I weigh 500lbs no one should deny me an ice cream cone....


BREAKING NEWS...500# Mt. Prospect , Ill. man destroys local Ice Cream parlor after being refused a purchase of a double cone.

:hihi:


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## VivaDaWolf (Feb 5, 2012)

dprais1 said:


> I understand the whole idea of clerks trying to make sure I have proper setup to take care of fish I buy.
> 
> But I really don't need a 17 year old who took a 2 hour training course on aquarium fishes to question what I'm buying. For that matter I don't take take kindly to anyone doing so.


I get that attitude from a lot of customers. Thats why now I just end up selling 3 medium plecos to people with a 20g tank to do 'clean up'. People dont like to be lectured or informed, even if its for the welfare of the fish. They get rude or uppity, especially since I am a younger female, I dont get taken very seriously because people view me as just another associate who will bag you fish because the 'fish guys' are not there. One recent sale was a yellow lab for this guy because his betta jumped out of this 2.5g tank and he wanted something 'cooler' to replace it. He insisted that it was fine when I kept telling him it was not. I sold him it. He asked for another one. I refused. Is this really the right of a person to buy an animal to mistreat? Feeder food I understand, but I hate selling fish that will most likely die just for the whims of people.


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## dprais1 (Sep 12, 2012)

VivaDaWolf said:


> I get that attitude from a lot of customers. Thats why now I just end up selling 3 medium plecos to people with a 20g tank to do 'clean up'. People dont like to be lectured or informed, even if its for the welfare of the fish. They get rude or uppity, especially since I am a younger female, I dont get taken very seriously because people view me as just another associate who will bag you fish because the 'fish guys' are not there. One recent sale was a yellow lab for this guy because his betta jumped out of this 2.5g tank and he wanted something 'cooler' to replace it. He insisted that it was fine when I kept telling him it was not. I sold him it. He asked for another one. I refused. Is this really the right of a person to buy an animal to mistreat? Feeder food I understand, but I hate selling fish that will most likely die just for the whims of people.


being male or female has nothing to do with it, age really has nothing to do with it. 

-most clerks will tell me the plecos keep a tank clean by eating other fish's poo
-schooling fish prefer to be kept in odd numbers
-50% waterchange is WAAAY too much 
-change your filter media every 2 weeks to keep it clean
-etc etc

personally, I don't feel that I need to justify myself to anyone. 

There is nothing wrong with providing information, in fact, there is a lot of good in that. Just remember you don't know it all nor do I. When some clerk tells me I need to feed my dwarf puffers meaty foods like chopped clams and beefheart I don't want to spend the next half hour to correct them. 

But when the line is crossed and store clerks become 'Fish Police" then I take my business elsewhere. There are several petco I will not enter for this reason.


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## dprais1 (Sep 12, 2012)

DogFish said:


> BREAKING NEWS...500# Mt. Prospect , Ill. man destroys local Ice Cream parlor after being refused a purchase of a double cone.
> 
> :hihi:


Breaking News....Americans have fought to keep their freedom only to allow retailers to determine what they can and can't have. Prospective buyers of fashionable clothing must prove they can accessorize correctly before purchase, prospective buyers of sympathy cards must convince clerks they truely feel sympathy, and prospective fish keepers must provide a) a water sample proving their tank is cycled b) photo of their tank with a ruler for size reference c) a note from their mother saying they are responsible 

:hihi::hihi::hihi:


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## dtejeda.arias (Mar 5, 2013)

When I'm at the my local petsmarts the associates who know from a while back will send customers to me for advice... I also hate listening to new hires read off to customers what they need to do. I'm "that guy" who steps in and assures the person is accurately informed. Could be a fish or a reptile. I have decent knowledge of both. 

My favorite all time moment was when I asked the fish department manager at a petsmart where's your prime and excel and he didn't know what I was talking about. Had the nerves to ask me after if those where regular/common fish products cause he has never heard of them...


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

PetSmart in my area post adult size and the minimum tank size right on the price sticker.

via Droid DNA Tapatalk 2


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## thelub (Jan 4, 2013)

Big O said:


> that snail is awesome looking.
> I would keep that as a pet. Is it aquatic?


From what I've read its a land snail that people keep as pets. Its also said to be used in santaria rituals.



Aulonocara_Freak said:


> I would use that snails shell for my shellies!!! Where can I get some?


Call Florida Pest Control. 

When I was a kid we had a pond on our property that had some goldlfish cross breeds in it. 

Is is unfortunate that the apparently the general society can't have some forethought and common sense about anything at all.


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## Psycofc1 (Feb 28, 2013)

I think stores should be posting the Max size a fish can get on their tags. It there for the cust to see when purchasing and no one is pushing the issue. It may change the tide in what fish are sold but losses in one area will be made up in others. ie. Common pleco vs. Oto. Basically same job and price but one stays much much smaller.


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## dprais1 (Sep 12, 2012)

Psycofc1 said:


> I think stores should be posting the Max size a fish can get on their tags. It there for the cust to see when purchasing and no one is pushing the issue. It may change the tide in what fish are sold but losses in one area will be made up in others. ie. Common pleco vs. Oto. Basically same job and price but one stays much much smaller.


right good customer service isn't about telling a customer what they should and should not do, especially when you don't know all the facts.

it's about giving all the known facts and then letting them decide.

a customer that is happy with their purchase today, 3 months from now and 2 years from now is a repeat customer for life. +/-


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## Knotyoureality (Aug 3, 2012)

Psycofc1 said:


> I think stores should be posting the Max size a fish can get on their tags. It there for the cust to see when purchasing and no one is pushing the issue. It may change the tide in what fish are sold but losses in one area will be made up in others. ie. Common pleco vs. Oto. Basically same job and price but one stays much much smaller.


The chain stores do this already--but folks don't bother to read 'em, or have at one point or another heard the old saw about fish only growing as large as their tank. And I've heard employees TRY to steer people away from bad choices, but be overruled or ignored. 

"No, I want this. It'll be fine. My brother has one and it never got larger than.."

or worse, one I hear often when it's a parent buying fish for a kid...

"It doesn't really matter, they'll all be dead in a couple weeks anyway. Just give 'em whatever they want" (followed by the clerk bagging up two bala sharks, a dwarf gourami, three guppies and an african frog)


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## dprais1 (Sep 12, 2012)

and it sucks and people shouldn't do it and that is the price we pay for freedom....some people make poor decisions. 

what do we have when the gov't or retailers have the right- the responsibility- to determine what we can and cannot keep?


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## dprais1 (Sep 12, 2012)

think I will stay away from this thread before I get banned


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## Psycofc1 (Feb 28, 2013)

Knotyoureality said:


> The chain stores do this already--but folks don't bother to read 'em, or have at one point or another heard the old saw about fish only growing as large as their tank. And I've heard employees TRY to steer people away from bad choices, but be overruled or ignored.


Never seen fish sizes in a chain store. As we can see by the OP that common plecos can get to be up to over 2 feet I dont think most people seeing that would bother buying it. One of the lfs around here actually has some larger adult fish that they show to people when buying like a Black ghost thats about 12" and a pleco thats about 18". Still people do buy them. I have a friend with a 10g tank and a 6" pleco in it that I keep warning her about:angryfire


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## Aulonocara_Freak (Feb 4, 2013)

Chain store's and most LFS are in it to make the money and pay the bills. If a person wants to buy a 12" Pleco and the employee convinces him not to the boss will probably have a long talk to the employee that he just lost them $___.__ and this and that. Aswell the #1 rule when working is "The customer is always right".


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

dprais1 said:


> think I will stay away from this thread before I get banned



No, stick around, we should be able to discuss a topic like this in an adult manner.These topics should be talked about. 

"Fish Police" for example. I do feel all retailers should take some moral responsibility vs. just selling anything to anyone with money. I don't think they should cross the line and get self-righteous. 

I do try to be empathic for the clerk, try to keep in mind 
"WE" don't walk in with a Blue Ribbon on our chest that says, "1st place - Fish Keeper". 

As a customer I've overheard conversation where I wanted to grab the customer, yell out "NO FISH FOR YOU" and escort them out of the store.


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## Clemsons2k (May 31, 2009)

I have to control myself every time I go to a store that sells fish. I hear the misinformation and want to soooo badly correct the person(s), but I also hate it when I go somewhere and some nosy fellow customer butts his/her head into a sale and tries to correct people. So I keep my mouth closed to keep from being "that guy".

I will say though its very refreshing when someone working the fish section actually knows most of what they're talking about. I had a lovely conversation with a guy working at Petco a couple weeks ago about planted tanks.


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## Knotyoureality (Aug 3, 2012)

Happily, there ARE things you can do to help nudge things in the right direction. 

When you're in a chain store and there's a knowledgable GOOD clerk working the fish area---acknowledge them and express your appreciation for their good work even if you're not buying anything yourself. Give 'em some good strokes. If you've got the time, find the manager and express your appreciation to them as well, or send an email to the store. Make sure that employee feels valued and VALIDATED in their position. 

If you're shopping in a store and have the opportunity to interact with folks who are looking at fish--DO. If they're experienced, great-you just had a nice interactin. If they're new/confused-take the opportunity to point out a few facts or comment on the fish they're looking at. If they're receptive, you can answer questions. If not, oh well--you tried. As for not being "that guy"? Communication is a skill, the more you practice the better you get. 

Don't buy from bad stores. If it's an LFS, tell the manager why you aren't shopping there (dyed fish, misinformation, etc). If it's a chain, write to the corporate address and identify the store and your specific complaints in a polite and concise manner. Good feedback goes to the local level, complaints go to the next level up. 

Don't buy problematic fish from stores that aren't selling them responsibly. "rescuing" fish from a store by buying them only encourages continued stocking of that item.


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## Clemsons2k (May 31, 2009)

^ Good advice. 

Its not a communication problem on my part, theres just rarely a good opportunity to work it into conversation with a complete stranger. Either you end up making the store employee look like a liar (and subsequently yourself like a know-it-all) or the person thinks you're a weirdo haha.


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## Sajacobs (Aug 24, 2012)

Knotyoureality said:


> Happily, there ARE things you can do to help nudge things in the right direction.
> 
> When you're in a chain store and there's a knowledgable GOOD clerk working the fish area---acknowledge them and express your appreciation for their good work even if you're not buying anything yourself. Give 'em some good strokes. If you've got the time, find the manager and express your appreciation to them as well, or send an email to the store. Make sure that employee feels valued and VALIDATED in their position.
> 
> ...


Well said. :thumbsup:


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## scapegoat (Jun 3, 2010)

DogFish said:


> No, stick around, we should be able to discuss a topic like this in an adult manner.These topics should be talked about.


i think you're on the wrong forum :icon_lol:


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Knotyoureality - Love the positive attitude, you're a great ambassador of the hobby.!

:thumbsup:




Clemsons2k said:


> ....Its not a communication problem on my part, theres just rarely a good opportunity to work it into conversation with a complete stranger.
> ...


A good start is what kind of fish do you keep? Followed with "those are pretty cool". Followed by, "how are they doing for you?"

If there's an opportunity to offer constructive advice, from you experience now your less likey to come off as a know it all and more likely to be treated like a fellow hobbyist that had a good thought.

Really it's not the message content it's how it's delivered.


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## Clemsons2k (May 31, 2009)

DogFish said:


> A good start is what kind of fish do you keep? Followed with "those are pretty cool". Followed by, "how are they doing for you?"
> 
> If there's an opportunity to offer constructive advice, from you experience now your less likey to come off as a know it all and more likely to be treated like a fellow hobbyist that had a good thought.
> 
> Really it's not the message content it's how it's delivered.


Agreed and if they looked like a "hobbyist" persay, I'd be more than willing. More often than not its parents buying fish with their little kids that get told the wrong things. 

Everyone has to start somewhere though and I know for a fact that when I was little the fish tanks my parents set up for me were not suitable for their enhabitants. When I got older we upgraded to a larger tank and my dad had gained a decent amount of knowledge since we first started, so that tank was much better. Mainly stuck by the "inch per gallon" rule than anything and didn't take into consideration schooling behavior or overall swimming room. Although on a couple occasions he told me that we couldn't buy a certain fish because it would get too big or was too aggressive for a community tank haha. Once I was around 19 and got back into the hobby for myself I did tons of research and made sure to do things right the first time. 

But anyways back on topic lol.


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## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

Psycofc1 said:


> Never seen fish sizes in a chain store. As we can see by the OP that common plecos can get to be up to over 2 feet I dont think most people seeing that would bother buying it. One of the lfs around here actually has some larger adult fish that they show to people when buying like a Black ghost thats about 12" and a pleco thats about 18". Still people do buy them. I have a friend with a 10g tank and a 6" pleco in it that I keep warning her about:angryfire


Both Petco and Petsmart in my area have this info available on the display tank, along with the price andif it's a schooling fish or not.


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## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

Back to the original topic of the common plecos - I see no reason to sell them in pet stores. There are very very few people who can house them properly - those who can could have them special ordered if they really wanted them. What they should be selling are BN's or other smaller plecos.


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## James M (Jun 21, 2012)

wendyjo said:


> Back to the original topic of the common plecos - I see no reason to sell them in pet stores. There are very very few people who can house them properly - those who can could have them special ordered if they really wanted them. What they should be selling are BN's or other smaller plecos.


Add to that list most Central and South American cichlids, (oscars, managuense, etc, etc, etc) Marble Sailfiin cats, Red Tail Cats, Arowanas, Shovel nosed catfish, most marine fish that you see for sail, Pacus, Gouramis (the ones that get huge) a majority of the reptiles for sale, etc, etc, etc.

Plecos are the least of the problems.


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## Blue Falcon (Nov 9, 2009)

I just wanted to share my experience since I work at a LFS. Some people just dont want to listen to my advice. Some things I try to tell them go against everything they have ever known, such as keeping a goldfish in a bowl. I try to explain to them that it is wrong, and they just give me a blank face like I just told them I saw bigfoot. If I pressure them too much, they just go to the petsmart down the road and buy it, so after all these years I have just learned to keep my mouth shut about certain things. I feel like it is ultimately the consumers responsibility to research the demands of their pets.

However, If they seem open minded, willing to learn, and/or ask me questions or advice on their tank, I will give them all the advice and accurate information I possibly can. Some answers I dont know, I look them up online or in a book and get back to them while they are shopping around. 

Some of the customers that come into my store though,..... I wish I could lock them up in a 5x5 room with no ventilation and see how long they survive in their own waste. Ignorant fools.


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## dprais1 (Sep 12, 2012)

James M said:


> Add to that list most Central and South American cichlids, (oscars, managuense, etc, etc, etc) Marble Sailfiin cats, Red Tail Cats, Arowanas, Shovel nosed catfish, most marine fish that you see for sail, Pacus, Gouramis (the ones that get huge) a majority of the reptiles for sale, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> Plecos are the least of the problems.


I agree with this, there are many fish that simply _should not_ be sold in pet stores. 

This is fundamentally different than than having a list of fish that _can not_ be sold in pet stores.


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## Lhonskiboy (Apr 20, 2013)

Clemsons2k said:


> I have to control myself every time I go to a store that sells fish. I hear the misinformation and want to soooo badly correct the person(s), but I also hate it when I go somewhere and some nosy fellow customer butts his/her head into a sale and tries to correct people. So I keep my mouth closed to keep from being "that guy".
> 
> I will say though its very refreshing when someone working the fish section actually knows most of what they're talking about. I had a lovely conversation with a guy working at Petco a couple weeks ago about planted tanks.


Do some research first with the fish that you're planning to buy some of the staff are morons and have no clue in what they're selling. Good example PETSMART!


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## dprais1 (Sep 12, 2012)

good fish breeders do a lot of culling. and not the nice culling of seperating them and selling them for cheap. butcher knife--concrete floor--freezer-- sort of culling.

there are even farms where they raise fish just to be killed and eaten.

I like fish. I like them in my belly and I like them in my tank. 

But fish are fish. They aren't smart and they aren't dumb. They are just fish and they do what fish do. Does a pleco really care if it is in a tank that is too small? Who decided the tank was too small, I hope the pleco was consulted?

Maybe the pleco is happy to be in a 20 gallon tank as long as it has food to eat and it stays wet. Maybe fish can't be happy because maybe they don't have emotions.

Maybe rather than limiting fish species that can be sold in stores, if we are taking the legal route, we should instead make it illegal to sell any aquarium less than 125gallon. Then having fish that get too big wouldn't be an issue.

Or maybe, if we really care and want to make a difference we as a community and as individuals should stop buying our tetras, our bettas, our ottos,ur loaches and our $1 a gallon aquariums from business that we feel are behaving unethically.

Or maybe, to get back on topic, we make the issue not about BUYING fish but about releasing them. Nail and Hammer approach.


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## SupaTanks (Apr 11, 2013)

Though I do agree with the argument that pet stores should... (plainly put) have standards _e.g. give customers the right type of information on the animals they sell_- I don't believe it's entirely their fault. 

These ex-owners have to take responsibility for just dumping these creatures anywhere (and I'm talking about pets in general). These people owe it to the pets they adopt to give it a chance. Is it really all that hard to call into your local fish-specialty store and see if they're willing to take it off your hands? Its ridiculous that anyone would think its okay to dump these guys just anywhere. You can only play the "ignorance" card so long before you need to own up to your actions. .


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## dprais1 (Sep 12, 2012)

SupaTanks said:


> These ex-owners have to take responsibility for just dumping these creatures anywhere (and I'm talking about pets in general). These people owe it to the pets they adopt to give it a chance. Is it really all that hard to call into your local fish-specialty store and see if they're willing to take it off your hands? Its ridiculous that anyone would think its okay to dump these guys just anywhere. You can only play the "ignorance" card so long before you need to own up to your actions. .


Or lets be honest, sometimes you have to put an animal down. If done in such a way as to minimize or eliminate suffering, or even if it is not. It is what needs to be done. 

anyone hear of carpage cans?


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## Knotyoureality (Aug 3, 2012)

Lack of basic science education hurts us in this regard as well. Most of my co-workers (for example) are barely cognizant that there's any life at all in the local lakes other than "bugs, ugly catfish and some trout". A pleco is just another ugly catfish to them. I've even had one person excuse her release of some oscars into the local canal by saying she was "contributing to a dwindling bio-diversity". Way to learn the jargon and miss the lesson, eh?

Or as one person put it to me while I was decrying the growing presence of starlings in our area, "A bird is a bird is a bird; who cares what type it is?".


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## Bandit1200 (Dec 11, 2010)

dprais1 said:


> good fish breeders do a lot of culling. and not the nice culling of seperating them and selling them for cheap. butcher knife--concrete floor--freezer-- sort of culling.
> 
> there are even farms where they raise fish just to be killed and eaten.
> 
> ...



Let's face a sad reality:
Most people out there buying these fish have no idea about what they are putting in their tanks. Even more importantly _*THEY DON'T CARE*_ what they are putting in their tanks and/or releasing when they get bothersome. How can you educate someone that doesn't care? I think that with the availability of the bristlenose becoming more and more prevalent, we can and should stop the general sale of common plecos. One of the LFS that I frequent doesn't even sell the common plecos, only bristlenose.

Having said that, I do not think they should be illegal to own. I have a 125 gallon tank that houses a couple of large plecos that otherwise would be dead or swimming where they shouldn't be. There are conscientious people out there that can and do support the true needs of these fish, at least to the extent possible inside a normal household setting. 

Education is indeed needed, but I think the stores could also share the burden by not making them available to the general customer. Maybe they could be one of the "special orders".


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## thelub (Jan 4, 2013)

Knotyoureality said:


> Lack of basic science education hurts us in this regard as well.....


I think you hit it on the head right there. There are a lot of factors why people think its ok to just dump fish in any waterway but the lack of education these days is a big contributor IMO.


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## blink (Feb 22, 2012)

scapegoat said:


> let not focus so much on those releasing them, but instead focus on the fish stores that sell a fish that gets to 2' in length to folks buying 10g tanks.
> 
> these common pleco should be illegal to sell.


I agree, most newbie fish keepers don't have enough space to properly care for a large pleco, they just get one because their parents always had one or because the LFS says they keep the tank clean.
One of the worst offenders with plecos in my area is the Big Al's... Every time I go in there I see a 40 gallon tank with 20-50 young plecos for cheap cheap and they sell the damn things to newbies (sometimes they even put them on sale) then when the fish gets too big they will refuse to take them back because they "have too many large plecos already". Well La De Da, I guess you shouldn't have sold so many to people with small tanks.

It's like green Iguanas in the reptile world, they are a damnable plague upon reptile rescue groups because NO ONE wants a fully grown, poorly socialized, irritable 6' lizard. Fortunately many stores (in my area at least) are no longer carrying them and have stopped selling them even on special order but I know that iguana babies are still popular in some places.

Make em illegal or require a permit for a common pleco and scenes like the OP will become a lot less common.


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## the.koi.maiden (Jan 6, 2013)

I've seen in mentioned a few times on this last page. I think the best solution to this problem is for the stores to simply stop selling these tankbuster fishes (easier said than done, I know). Selling a bristlenose over a common or bolivian ram over an oscar. Have these tankbuster fish be on "special order." They would still be accessible to people that have the desire and ability to house a fish of that size. It is my wish that this will one day happen, and I do my best to support stores that do things like this and encourage other people to do the same. 

The problem with making them strictly illegal is that the govt often sweeps too wide with things like this. Take the illegalization of the _Channa_ genus. There are only a handful of fish in that genus that pose a threat to waterways, and some very beautiful fish are banned from the hobby because of it. I'm afraid the govt wouldn't see it's just a couple of species causing a problem, and would blanket ban anything called a "pleco" or worse any loricarid catfish!

Some additional reading for those interested: 
PFK: White lists? (New this weekend)
PFK: Will you support the big fish campaign? (An interesting article from last year)


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## Mjolnir1982 (Jul 21, 2013)

I am so glad that the local chain store by me is good. I mean the employees know what they are talking about and have said to me many time that "I wouldn't do that as the fish will get way to big for your tank". I have also done research on certain fish and then put them to the test. I'll ask questions I know the answer to just to see what they say. They are almost always right.


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## fish_22 (Jun 13, 2013)

I don't understand how people cannot think before releasing fish/plants into local waterways. I mean even in Alaska we are having problems with anachris (i think it is anachris) in the local river and it gets really cold/frozen in the winter yet the plant still survives. I don't think we will have problems with fish from tanks surviving, but why risk it? The petco by me adopts fish if you cannot keep them anymore. In a place like florida where it is warm, a fish like mollies (or anything else that multiplies like crazy) could really mess up a small lake's ecosystem.
I think people need more education not only about the fish they are buying, but also about how much invasive fish/plants can ruin an ecosystem. 
If people are releasing their fish on the basis that "it won't make it through the winter", why not just put it to sleep them and prevent any accidents?
I've thought about working at a fish store just so I can be an educated employee who can help people from making good choices that are size appropriate.

On another note-make sure the plants/fish you buy online from other members or websites are legal to mail and have in your state because if it isn't, it is illegal for a reason-possibly because it has the potential to be invasive in your area.


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## mr.bigglesworth (Jul 6, 2012)

Last time I tried to help out a few customer's at a Petco, it was a mom and her daughter. The daughter was running around pointing at every tank saying, I'll take one of these and two of those, the mom was just nodding and the employees were getting the fish. the mom was carring an empty 5g tank in her hands and a sample bottle of food and cheap tetra conditioner. The daughter pointed at a tank full of oscar and she already had bought a bunch of tetra. I told her mom the pretty orange fish would eat the smaller colorful fish in a simple voice. She looked at the salesman who shook his head. Then I tried further to explain to her mom the basics of fishkeeping and the daughter started crying. I was like, 'oops', and then the mom started yelling at me and HERE COMES THE DAD! Needless to say I was gone in a flash. Scared me so bad I swore never to even talk to other customers at an lfs I didn't know even if they asked for advice or their was a man with a bomb strapped to his chest demanding I speak. As much as I hate to see fish struggle in captivity that was just too traumatic.


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## Firestarter (Dec 28, 2009)

I work at walmart part time for extra cash and some of the people that want fish are crazy. But I just explain what should and should not be done nicely and let them decide. Had a guy want a bunch of fish tropical comets and koi for his 30g tank that he is going to set up and add the fish tonight. Explained why it was not a good idea that they don't go together. He quickly said I am setting up the tank tonight I know what I am doing. After talking to him he said he had it set up at one time and fish died off. I really wanted to punch him and say "No fish for you!".


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## Gavin Citrus (Aug 2, 2014)

Sometimes things are meant to be. I was at a BBS today, and just wanted to cry.

I hear a store associate talking to a guy who obviously knew very little about fish. He was pointing at some Danio's and was noting how he enjoyed that they were nibbling on the bottom of that tank. He told the associate he wanted some fish that would help clean the debris on the bottom of his tank. He said I only have a small tank but I need something to clean the bottom.

Without missing a beat this associate says, oh the SAE's do a great job with that. He asked how much they were and she said a price and he said, I'll take 3.

Next up, another guy, equally as unsure mentions how he likes the white dots on the swordtails, thought they looked pretty cool all speckled. They obviously had Ich, as I'm leaving I hear him say he wants two swordtails with the white dots and she starts bagging them up for him.

I left angry and disappointed all at once. It continues to show me there is a HUGE discrepancy between individual BBS.

Although I was in the alternative BBS a couple days before and saw a bunch of Electric GBRs with Ich. They have them selling for nearly $20 each, but won't separate and treat for Ich?

For those who do work at BBS, are all the tanks on the same water system? Even if you wanted to separate and treat could you get it done?

Seems like losing the more expensive stock would be a financial problem.


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## Firestarter (Dec 28, 2009)

Gavin Citrus said:


> For those who do work at BBS, are all the tanks on the same water system? Even if you wanted to separate and treat could you get it done?
> 
> Seems like losing the more expensive stock would be a financial problem.


I find it very hard to treat the tank systems at WalMart. I just work there part time for extra cash and looking into the system I was noticing that the system has auto top off and also a system that constantly adds water a few gallons per hour so any treatment you add don't do anything. I was able to turn down the auto top off so it was not so sensitive it was almost always adding water and also was able to use tubing to route the constant stream of new water to a nearby drain. And finally the ick treatments are working. Light doses and water changes and lots of patients have been my trick to not losing other fish when treating for ick.


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## Firestarter (Dec 28, 2009)

The problem is most parents getting their kid fish don't care. I try to give good advice about setting up the tank first and they don't listen. They just say I want fish and a fish tank to set up today.


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## amcoffeegirl (May 26, 2009)

At my local petsmart they do ask what size tank people have before netting fish. If you seem inexperienced they ask more questions like how long has the tank been set up? What other fish are in the tank? 
When I say I have 7 aquariums they sometimes ask me questions. I taught one employee how to sex livebearers. 
I don't mind teaching when I can. 
But yeah trying to tell other customers can be pointless. 
As someone else said my locally owned store keeps a giant pleco on display to show people how big they get. They also have a couple large barbs that are stunning. Maybe tinfoil barbs ( not sure)

Bump: There are many aquarium fish that people impulse buy because they're cute, or they don't know how big they can actually get. Here's a list of some of those giants. Feel free to add to the list. Research before you buy! 

-Plecos Many species grow to more than 12", up to 20"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v430/speedy2075/L130-2.jpg

-Iridescent Shark Pangasius hypophthalmus up to 3' 
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o181/plecocrazy/idshark.jpg

-Red-tailed catfish Phractocephalus hemioliopterus Over 100 lbs.
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o181/plecocrazy/catback2.jpg

-Pacus Colossoma sp At least 40 lbs.
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o181/plecocrazy/pacu2.jpg

-Clown loach Botia macracanthus 16"
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o181/plecocrazy/untitled.jpg

-Kissing gourami Helostoma temminckii 12"
http://www.aquarticles.com/images/NZ%20Aquarists/Sean%20Canovan/SC17%20Large%20fish_b.jpg

-Tinfoil barb Barbonymus schwanenfeldii 13"
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o181/plecocrazy/tinfoil.jpg

-Chinese algae eater Gyrinocheilus aymonieri 11"
No pic yet... find one!

-Clown Knife Notopterus Chitala Approaching 3'
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o181/plecocrazy/Chlop_u1.jpg

-Black Ghost Knife Apteronotus albifrons 20" The one on the right...
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=67059&stc=1&d=1170054249

-Chinese high-fin shark Myxocyprinus asiaticus Over 3'
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o181/plecocrazy/393428.jpg

-Giant Gourami Osphronemus goramy 28"
http://www.fishing-khaolak.com/images/freshwater_fishing/par_lai/giant_gourami.jpg

-Arowana Osteoglossum bicirrhosum >4ft.
http://www.flower-horn.de/amzon_data/amazon5.jpg

-Dinosaur Eel, Bichir Polypterus spp. Check which one, some over 16"
http://www.aquarist-classifieds.co.uk/forum/upload/bichir1.jpg

-Peacock Bass Chichla spp. around 15 lbs
http://www.azflyandtie.com/photopost/data/500/IMG_0477.JPG


-Tiger Shovelnose Pseudoplatystoma Fasciatum around 3’
http://www.azflyandtie.com/photopost/data/500/IMG_0478.JPG


-Oscar Astronotus ocellatus 14”
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj186/Nickkkp/oscarfish.jpg

This is copied from a post in 2008 from frogmanjared.


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## jerrytheplater (Apr 11, 2007)

Fishumms said:


> This is a photo taken at Lake Dunlap last year by TPW Inland Fisheries. They are all plecos. I have also seen some tetras and ciclids in some of the smaller streams.


I just came across this thread and did not see the link in the Original Post, so I Googled it and found these:

https://www.facebook.com/texasparksandwildlife/posts/372380716156106

http://www.chron.com/sports/outdoor...decimating-Texas-waterways-2175976.php#src=fb

Flushing fish down the toilet is another bad way to get rid of fish. Better to kill them first then put them on your compost pile.


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