# German blue ram



## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

my female German blue ram was digging around in the sand today and also picking something of the driftwood, she goes here to there and showing little aggression toward some fishes. male is also showing aggression toward fishes. my male and female Rams been together and never seen them fighting. the first day i got the female and then got a male from one of my friend and he was kind of shy the first couple day and later i seen him always hanging out with the female. don't know if i could already call them a pair. 

any suggestion on whats going on in the tank. why is she digging around in the sad, she will do it with her belly and side fins.

extra info: there is a little white/gray looking thing is sticking out under her belly.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

latest update:

looks like they found a place where they are constantly digging or moving the sand to make a dig. both male and female are doing this, at least female is doing it for sure. i also saw them try to hit the plant (they are hitting with there mouth or trying to move it forward), which is near the digging. i don't see any aggression from both fishes plus they are working together on building something. it might be time to lay some eggs, or whatever it is i don't know. 

they chose the wrong area though for the digging. because the filter input is right on top of their new home. looks like am going to have it blocked with the net, before any eggs or fry gets sucked up. i hope they are breeding because my water is impossible from them to breed in. however my male ram is locally bred but not the female.

i will keep you guys update with the latest soon.


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## Postal Penguin (Mar 30, 2009)

Definitely sounds like they are trying to breed. The white thing sticking out of the female is the breeding tube and the digging is just to make a pit to lay the eggs in. May end up with a nice batch of fry soon.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

thanks, i will let you know what else happens next, so how long would it take for them to lay the eggs. i mean after the digging is done. any other information you guys could give will be nice also.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

yehhhh

there are many eggs in my tank now, they are on the driftwood and male and female are guarding them. the snail just had a nice beat up lol


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

damn it those are dead eggs


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## redfalconf35 (Feb 24, 2008)

dead? how can you tell?


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## zzyzx85 (Feb 13, 2008)

too early to tell. give them a few hours/overnight. if they're unviable, the parents will eat them.

The first batch will often get eaten. It takes them a while to figure out what to do.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

*hi redfalcon*



redfalconf35 said:


> dead? how can you tell?


the eggs looks pure white in color and please do click on that link and also if they are not dead how would i be able to tell. are they suppose to be moving around or male should with doing something with them. 

http://www.utahaquatics.com/viewtopic.php?t=11621&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=


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## redfalconf35 (Feb 24, 2008)

honestly, i think that the eggs may be more a victim of your camera than anything (white balance issues, possibly)... The rams would likely eat the eggs if they were dead. It still may happen as most fish need to practice once or twice before they get it right, but don't count your fry out yet


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## bannh (May 3, 2008)

I agree it is too early to tell. When first laid the eggs are translucent and I really cannot tell from that picture. Bad eggs will turn very opaque white and often not all at once. All those eggs look the same so if they are duds I don't think it shows yet.

The first time fish spawn they don't always get it quite right. Fertilization may be poor or the fish don't fan the eggs or they just get mixed up and eat them. 

There may also be issues because of your hard water but it is not fair to judge that on only one spawn. On the Utah forum you said something about them not breeding in hard water. They will TRY, they will spawn, but the hardness affects the eggs ability to hatch.

If they eggs go bad after maybe 24 hours they were duds. But if they go bad after a few days that's when you should suspect the water being an issue.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

one of the egg looks like it got a small mustache which is like moving or shaking (egg is not moving though) lol. don't know if that mean anything


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

ok the eggs died finally. 

could anyone explain why they died in hard water, what is in the hard water that causes the eggs to die or fertilize. if i do breed the rams again in the hard water, then what can i do at that time to have successful hatch of the eggs. should i add the fish into another tank with soft water soon as i see that she is going to lay eggs. is it possible to remove the eggs from the hard water soon as they lay them and then add the eggs in soft water.


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## zzyzx85 (Feb 13, 2008)

supposedly the eggs can't harden in hard water.

you can try adding peat moss to your filter/tank to try and soften the water.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

zzyzx85 said:


> supposedly the eggs can't harden in hard water.
> 
> you can try adding peat moss to your filter/tank to try and soften the water.


sorry i did not understand what you mean by the eggs can't harden


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## VadimShevchuk (Sep 19, 2009)

happi said:


> sorry i did not understand what you mean by the eggs can't harden


develop?


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## bannh (May 3, 2008)

Happi, even though the hard water is the most likely cause, there are other reasons the eggs didn't survive. It's possible the male didn't fertilize them properly and it's also possible that one of the fish is not fertile, it happens.

I have heard two explanations for bad/poor hatching in hard water and I do not know which (if either) is correct. The first is the eggs cannot properly absorb water because of the osmotic pressure. The other is that the the *shell* of the eggs absorbs minerals and becomes too hard for the wigglers to escape from. It really doesn't matter because the solution is the same, softer water.

Before you do anything drastic to try to get the eggs to hatch and live, consider what you will do with the babies. It takes space to raise fry. Then consider what you will do with the juvenile fish. If you don't have space or funds to set up a tank to raise the fry in, there is no reason to hatch the eggs.

If you do want to try, you cannot move the parents to a tank with soft water right before they spawn. They would have osmotic shock if moved suddenly and might even die. It's more difficult for fish in hard water to be moved into soft water than the other way around.

If you could get them to spawn on something like an angel slate that could be moved to a one gallon jar and that might work.

If I had water as hard as yours and I wanted to breed GBRs, I would invest in an RO system (and tanks to raise the fry). Unless peat is used BEFORE the water is introduced to the tank, the parameters will always be fluctuating, not good.

Does that help?


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

bannh said:


> Happi, even though the hard water is the most likely cause, there are other reasons the eggs didn't survive. It's possible the male didn't fertilize them properly and it's also possible that one of the fish is not fertile, it happens.
> 
> I have heard two explanations for bad/poor hatching in hard water and I do not know which (if either) is correct. The first is the eggs cannot properly absorb water because of the osmotic pressure. The other is that the the *shell* of the eggs absorbs minerals and becomes too hard for the wigglers to escape from. It really doesn't matter because the solution is the same, softer water.
> 
> ...



thanks it was very helpful. but i really wanted them to hatch and wanted to experience the fishes taking care of them and then i was going to sell them later on. 

oh well, they will breed again and hopefully eggs might hatch, because there are still a chance.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

*another question*

it raises another question, which is that if the eggs cannot survive or fertile in the hard water then how come fishes that live in hard water who also lay eggs. how come those eggs are not effected the same way then.


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## bannh (May 3, 2008)

They have adapted over countless generations. They only fish which lived were the ones which were able to hatch in that hard water. There was no one there to give them soft water. It's natural selection.


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