# Fluval 3.0 vs Twinstar E



## patfat

https://youtu.be/jU0TIZRDXSw

review for the fluval


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## Kaiede

That review is why it’s on my shortlist (along with the discussion on it here on the forum). But with the final price / output similar between these two, I can afford to consider nits like color rendition and aesthetics. 

I just tend to see more Twinstar vs ADA and Fluval vs Finnex/Current comparisons.


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## tamsin

I'm interested to hear the comments on this too!


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## jeffkrol

Sorry, Fluval programming pushes it over the edge for me.
5 channels, though not a perfect design, is really a great feature. 
i know, sometimes it's just set and forget.. but it's there.. 
Can't go wrong w/ either AFAICT..




> fluval 3 24" 32W 2350 lumens





> Twinstar - LED Light - 600ES
> Power consumption 33 W
> Luminous flux 2,300 Lumen


minimalist or high tech.. 

85% 5 star ratings.. 
https://www.aquariumcoop.com/products/fluval-plant-3-0-led-light


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## voyetra8

Kaiede said:


> That review is why it’s on my shortlist (along with the discussion on it here on the forum). But with the final price / output similar between these two, I can afford to consider nits like color rendition and aesthetics.
> 
> I just tend to see more Twinstar vs ADA and Fluval vs Finnex/Current comparisons.




I love Cory and literally drive 45 mins to shop at Aquarium Co-op, but I'd caution you against taking the word of someone trying to sell you the product they are reviewing. 

Furthermore - I think the reason you see Twinstar compared to ADA is because of the form factor, and similarity of features, ie: on/off. 

To me, Current / Finnex / Fluval have more programability at the expense of performance. 

Personally, I'd rather have my dollars going to LEDs with better CRI / performance.


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## jeffkrol

Neither enhances cyan or violet.. bot have red w/ Fluval pushing 660nm and reg red w/ low K leds, AFAICT.

In a bet, for pure performence the 3.0 gets my vote..


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## voyetra8

jeffkrol said:


> In a bet, for pure performence the 3.0 gets my vote..



27 PAR at the substrate doesn't seem like a lot of performance.... 

He tested the Current+ Pro at 73 PAR on the same meter, FWIW.


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## jeffkrol

Don't know what he did but's wrong..
This is the 2.0 do you "really" believe it would be much different?
I don't...



> Fluval Fresh & Plant 2.0: 46 watts; 252 LEDs total; fixed color spectrum 7500K; adjustable brightness 100% - 10%; [email protected]”; [email protected]”; 120 degree lenses; 3 year warranty; fully sealed unit Potential issues: ‘touch’ control takes some practice (I did not try the WiFi model)


https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...omparison-fluval-fresh-plant-2-0-fixture.html



> I tried the Fluval F&P 2.0 on several different tanks and recorded the PAR readings; this is what I found:
> 
> On my 45 Gallon (tall – 36.3" x 12.7" x 23.8" high) 20” rim to substrate
> w/dirty VersaTop [email protected]
> w/clean VersaTop [email protected]
> w/ no VersaTop [email protected]
> 
> On my 20 Gallon (24.3" x 12.5" x 16.8" high) 14” rim to substrate
> w/dirty VersaTop [email protected]
> w/clean VersaTop [email protected]
> w/ no VersaTop [email protected] @ max output
> w/ no VersaTop [email protected] @ min output
> 
> On my 30 Gallon 36.3" x 12.7" x 16.8" high) 12” rim to substrate
> w/dirty VersaTop [email protected]
> w/clean VersaTop [email protected]
> w/ no VersaTop [email protected] @ max output





> Don't listen to aquarium co-op, he was using a complete garbage meter not to mention people saying its not calibrated for the new leds, hense why he got 30 on the 2.0 when it's actually what Seattle stated.


https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...luval-3-0-finnex-ray-2-enough-high-light.html

ONE more so "the error" truely dies.. 
Hey Seattle Aquarist,



> Just had time to run some quick preliminary tests on a 36" Fluval 3.0 using Licor sensor and logger. PPFD at 24" directly under the center was 45umol/m2/s, while at 18" distance was 63umol/m2/s. As I suspected, this is significantly higher than the AquariumCoop test reported; interestingly, it's right in line with Fluval's reported PPFD spec's from the 2.0 model as well as Wobblebonk's results using a Seneye sensor.


https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/1236089-fluval-plant-spectrum-led-new-model-6.html

Re: "quality":


> Hi Jeff, that's very close to my results. Color temp is actually around 5980K, but that point is extremely close to your CIE x,y coordinates and definitely the same color rendition. CRI is in the low 90's.


30cm = 12"


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## OVT

My $0.02 of confusion: 2 people test the same light and post 3 different results.

I only have Current lights. If Fluval / Twinstar E are close to Satelite Plus+ and mounted directly on the rim, I can reliably grow *only* low light plants with a single fixture on a tank 12-14" high and back to front. IME, you will either have to raise a single fixture to get wider spread and lose some PAR, or use 2.

And to correct myself, Twinstar E puts out x2 PAR of Satelight Plus, at least on paper:


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## voyetra8

jeffkrol said:


> Don't know what he did but's wrong..
> This is the 2.0 do you "really" believe it would be much different?
> I don't...



I think it's likely more or less the same as 2.0. And I seem to think he tested the 3.0 within a few PAR. 

As far as I know, he used the same meter for all 3 units, and while they likely aren't absolutely accurate - they are probably accurate relative to each other... 

Regardless - it seems PAR either isn't an absolute standard, or it's insanely difficult to measure. 

If it was a standard - it would seem different meters should produce at least similar results, no?


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## OVT

Same tank, same meter, same embient lighting I would expect the results to correlate across different LED lights.
Different tank, different tank contents, cleanliness of the glass, turbidity should affect the results for the same light. ?


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## patfat

to each there own. Of course cory's video is review/pushing to sell the product just thought it would help. personally I owned a fluval light before and was not to "WOW" by it. I own finnex before and it was great really did the job. I sold all that and been out of fresh for a year (went over to salt) but kept up with fresh. As of now I have an AI prime fresh, was able to trade my AI prime marine for it. Any who its nice works great wish they had more bright white instead of the yellowish white LED's but its been great. My 2 cents after all that I wouldnt go with fluval and pick a different brand up again the twinstar. could also look into the radion fresh. Of course it sucks to have to buy the wifi controller for it but I heard of good success. or go with a finnex light


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## jeffkrol

Again, to sum it up



> Can't go wrong w/ either AFAICT..





> Sorry, Fluval programming pushes it over the edge for me.


 Warts and all.. 

Yes there are better.. i.e Radions/ Orphek Atlantik and stronger i.e sbreef..
and probably 1/2 doz others..aquaticlife Halos ect. Orphek "bars"..

Finnex planted plus has a wonderful "pure" tone w/ the 7000k leds and true 660nm red. 
Same w/ Kessils

some differences are technical some aesthetics ect..

Kaeide wanted some specifics between 2 brands..and why one would choose one over the other..

Next month there may be a new wizz bang favorite..

Oh, and I'll take the Li-Cor w/ someone who also has a spectrophotometer over any other.. 

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/1236089-fluval-plant-spectrum-led-new-model-8.html
post 116 used to have (inc today) the spectral map of the Fluval 3.0.


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## voyetra8

jeffkrol said:


> Kaeide wanted some specifics between 2 brands..and why one would choose one over the other..




That's what I provided in my initial reply. [emoji6]


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## jeffkrol

> To me, (snip) / (snip) / Fluval have more program-ability at the expense of performance.
> 
> 
> 
> And I slightly disagree..  Like Twinstar increases PAR at the expense of flexibility and functionality..
> 
> Twinstar looks to have a bit more power than the Fluval. Hard to compare though.
> Only found one data set for the Twin ..though not unreasonable I find it a bit suspect for various reasons..
> Maybe I shouldn't .. but do..
> https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads...ihiros-led-par-data-the-power-of-light.43178/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regardless - it seems PAR either isn't an absolute standard, or it's insanely difficult to measure.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and no....Want to start w/ the fact that all these sensors do NOT measure PAR?..
> They measure PPFD which is "PAR" over a certain defined area over a defined period of time.....
> PAR/Meter squared /sec.
> What is PAR is also open to debate. Some using 400-700nm.. others expanding the set but not really important since any "common" sensor we would
> use uses the 400-700nm "standard"..
> None are perfect either..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> not to mention errors in placement/tilt ect. and light types ie. LED diode cone overlap ect..
> Then the difference between say 100 PAR and 75 PAR can be compensated over time .. i.e DLI
> running the 75PAR 33% longer would equalize the difference between the 2..
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Kaiede

patfat said:


> As of now I have an AI prime fresh, was able to trade my AI prime marine for it. Any who its nice works great wish they had more bright white instead of the yellowish white LED's but its been great.


The AI is an interesting option that I hadn't considered. More expensive, but more flexible in scheduling, and some decent first party mounting kits available. I also like that it's possible to configure it through a browser. Makes it more likely the scheduling will be something you can do 5-10 years from now, even if the company runs into hard times. 

I'm not terribly worried about the white balance. I prefer my whites in the 6500K range (blame my photography hobby), and I'd be running this low enough that there should be plenty of wiggle room to tune the white balance, and ramp up the light intensity in the future.

Looks like you can do split photo periods with it, too?



jeffkrol said:


> Sorry, Fluval programming pushes it over the edge for me.
> 5 channels, though not a perfect design, is really a great feature.
> i know, sometimes it's just set and forget.. but it's there..
> Can't go wrong w/ either AFAICT..


The programming is one of the reasons I am considering the Fluval. But at the same time, it's bluetooth with what's likely an in-house protocol for configuration. Add the general lack of polish on the app (at least the iOS version), along with lagging support for newer devices/OSes and it smacks of being a low priority. It would be disappointing to splash out for it and then find the app thrown under the bus 2 years from now. 

To be fair, the price _is_ the same as the 2.0, which was a dumb light. But the 2.0 is easier to rig up a 3rd party ramp timer to. The 3.0 not so much. 

But, it does seem like my impressions are correct. In terms of light, both of these would do pretty well. And a lot of it boils down to aesthetics vs flexibility when comparing the two. But now I'm honestly thinking of the AI Prime FW. Go figure.


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## voyetra8

Kaiede said:


> But now I'm honestly thinking of the AI Prime FW. Go figure.




I went through the same process you are going through now, and I narrowed it down to the AI Prime and Twinstar 600s. 

I opted for the Twinstar because it had a better light distribution for the 60P. If I had a cube tank, the AI would have been a no-brainer. 

Not sure you can go wrong with either, but be aware you will have a somewhat pronounced center-biased light distribution....

This thread might be useful: https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh.../forums/showthread.php?t=1256369&share_type=t


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## jeffkrol

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/radion-xr15w-g4-pro-freshwater-led-light-fixture-ecotech-marine.html

$150 more gets you the Radion fw. finally back down in price... Reef one is still $399-ish.

Beginning to feel like a car salesman..

aren't you glad you don't need to spend $1000 plus to grow algae.. LOL
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/h1200-tuna-flora-refugium-light-kessil.html


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## Wobblebonk

I can't help but feel in this case refugium means "special tomato" closet / tent... really now, bloom / grow spectrum? Noone's going through vegging/ flowering cycles like this in a refugium heh.


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## OVT

Both Radion and AI Prime at Big Al's: 15% sale + 10% off if you sign up for their newsletter.


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## Kaiede

voyetra8 said:


> I went through the same process you are going through now, and I narrowed it down to the AI Prime and Twinstar 600s.
> 
> I opted for the Twinstar because it had a better light distribution for the 60P. If I had a cube tank, the AI would have been a no-brainer.


I'm not counting out the Twinstar yet, but I think it is more like the Twinstar vs AI Freshwater at this point. The Fluval is nice, but it's the long-term aspects that make it worth paying the extra for the Freshwater, or putting the Twinstar on a ramp timer, IMO. 

And yeah, your thread is why the Twinstar wound up on my short list. I'll probably have to visit Aquarium Zen again soon, I _think_ they still sell the Twinstar line, but maybe only the S models. I do know they have a couple over their display tanks at least. I just didn't pay much attention to them the last time I was in. 

Yes, the light spread is different, and probably the one thing that would be a deal breaker. That or the fan noise. 



jeffkrol said:


> $150 more gets you the Radion fw. finally back down in price... Reef one is still $399-ish.
> 
> Beginning to feel like a car salesman..


Eh, sometimes it's worth the up sell, but sometimes you don't need to tell someone the Ferrari when the Porche is luxury enough.


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## voyetra8

Kaiede said:


> I'll probably have to visit Aquarium Zen again soon, I _think_ they still sell the Twinstar line, but maybe only the S models.



I'm there a few times a month, and while I think Ive seen boxes for Twinstars, I don't think I've seen any RGB versions over any tanks. 

You should do some research on the OEM AI mounting options - from what I've read, they aren't great. If I was going to use any, I'd probably use the pendant, as the others put a large clamp into your tank. 

The Radions seem to be more polished overall, albeit over-designed from an industrial design standpoint IMO. 

Someone needs to make a light with the Twinstar form factor and an AI Prime app controller.


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## patfat

The AI is an interesting option that I hadn't considered. More expensive, but more flexible in scheduling, and some decent first party mounting kits available. I also like that it's possible to configure it through a browser. Makes it more likely the scheduling will be something you can do 5-10 years from now, even if the company runs into hard times. 

I'm not terribly worried about the white balance. I prefer my whites in the 6500K range (blame my photography hobby), and I'd be running this low enough that there should be plenty of wiggle room to tune the white balance, and ramp up the light intensity in the future.

Looks like you can do split photo periods with it, too?




I had the salt version and loved it! being wifi built in and being able to control through phone app or laptop web page made it all worth while and made me choose AI. Of course I have a 24 JBJ so its perfect for my set up on light distribution. Totally understand where your getting at bout the company if they went under but highly doubt it will happen. Being ecotech bought AI some years back and they have a few other companies but keeping those companies under their original names. 

yep you can split photo periods. you can save multiple programs. you can even download other users programs. (of course you have to download their code to dropbox and bring it over to your device but thats super easy to do)


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## Weidbrewer

No experience with the Twinstar, but I am loving my 3.0. Had it for about a month now, and don't have any complaints. (okay, maybe few _minor_ ones: The bluetooth connect to the app can be finicky, if you have a power failure you have to turn it from manual back to auto, and the instructions kinda suck...but these are more irritants than actual complaints.)(


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## patfat

going off of voyetra8 about the mounts. the clamp isnt that big or to bad. I mean have you seen the radions holy *[email protected]# hahah!! also if the clamp is that much of a headache..you can get the rails and screw it to the stand instead


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## swarley

I'm not really contributing to the discussion but I really enjoy these types of threads. I also will say I wish the Twinstars had built in dimming at least. I don't mind that much that it doesn't have ramp up/down. I think the AI Prime Fresh are a great option too that I have been wanting to try. I also would go with the pendant style.


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## Kaiede

patfat said:


> Totally understand where your getting at bout the company if they went under but highly doubt it will happen.


I don't really expect them to. But I consider it a plus if a "smart light" continues to be programmable in the event they do, or otherwise abandon support for the product down the road. Less waste, longer lifespan. 



> You should do some research on the OEM AI mounting options - from what I've read, they aren't great. If I was going to use any, I'd probably use the pendant, as the others put a large clamp into your tank.
> 
> ...
> 
> Someone needs to make a light with the Twinstar form factor and an AI Prime app controller.


They're functional, but not ideal, sure. If I got either the Fluval or the Prime, I would be hanging them over the tank, but I might go with some sort of frame to hang them from rather than mounting in the ceiling. The Twinstar does let you save that expense, and looks a bit more minimal to boot. 

I would probably buy that mashup in a heartbeat if it existed. Although there is some benefit to puck lights in that you can build up lighting for larger tanks, and rearrange the pieces instead of having a single light for a particular size of tank, give or take a little.


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## tamsin

How big is the tank? I looked at the AI Prime, but they only cover 2'. Price isn't much different to the others if your tank is at that or under. But, if your tank is longer (I'm looking at 36") then to cover that extra foot you'd need two and that gets a lot more expensive than buying a slightly longer fluval/twinstar.


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## Immortal1

@Kaiede I will have to agree with you regarding the puck lights. If you decide to change tank sizes you can re-use the puck lights. I personally have been down the road of buying what I thought were decent strip lights only to end up being disapointed. In your words, I have since purchased a couple of Ferrari's and could not be happier. I also agree, if a Porsche will do then go with the Porsche.
There is a lot of info in my build thread regarding my various lighting issues if you care to spend the time looking. The Twinstar seems like a nice light. But, the adjust-ability of my Ferrari was worth the price paid. Best of luck with your decision process.


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## Kaiede

tamsin said:


> How big is the tank? I looked at the AI Prime, but they only cover 2'. Price isn't much different to the others if your tank is at that or under. But, if your tank is longer (I'm looking at 36") then to cover that extra foot you'd need two and that gets a lot more expensive than buying a slightly longer fluval/twinstar.


From my first post, the tank I'm looking to put together is a UNS 60U. So 60cm x 36cm footprint (~24" x 14"). Perfect for a single puck, IMO. 

Yes, two pucks for a longer tank would definitely be considerably more money than a strip light. The catch is that I would really prefer to stick to two display tanks, making it much more likely that I will replace an existing tank than add a new one. But yes, there are benefits to having a properly sized strip light, in terms of price, and easier light distribution. 

But I think Immortal1 already said what I'm now thinking: 



Immortal1 said:


> If you decide to change tank sizes you can re-use the puck lights. I personally have been down the road of buying what I thought were decent strip lights only to end up being disapointed. In your words, I have since purchased a couple of Ferrari's and could not be happier. I also agree, if a Porsche will do then go with the Porsche.


I do have one question for you, @Immortal1 since you did go for the Radions. How's the noise level with the fans?


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## Immortal1

@Kaiede - well part of me wants to say "what noise level?" But, honestly if the central air conditioner is not running, and the TV is off, and the doors to the cabinet are shut, and nobody is talking...
you might be able to hear them sitting 6' away. If you walk up to the tank, then you notice the whirrr of the fans - when they are running. They don't run continuously - which is what I was initially hoping for. Given the power of these lights, I am running them at about 50% power with about 5 hours of the 8 hours at that level. The other 3 hours I don't think the fans run at all.


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## voyetra8

OVT said:


> Both Radion and AI Prime at Big Al's: 15% sale + 10% off if you sign up for their newsletter.


Unfortunately, I just found out the "15% sitewide" sale doesn't apply to AI or Ecotech lights. (I just tried to buy a Prime for for my 45P.) 

This is was customer service said: "It does not apply to MAAP items by brands such as Aqua Illumination, Ecotech, Aquascape, and Red Sea." 

(FWIW - I don't know what "MAAP" means.)

The 10% new customer discount might still work... however the deal is obviously a lot less attractive.


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## OVT

%$#@#!


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## Wobblebonk

minimum advertised pricing :/


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## jeffkrol

Oh soo close.. 


> Minimum *Allowable* Advertised Price


Happy 4th..

https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/MAAP

https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/MAAP


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## voyetra8

OVT said:


> %$#@#!




Yeah, a bummer. I was gonna pull trigger and conduct a little A/B testing.


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## Kaiede

voyetra8 said:


> I'm there a few times a month, and while I think Ive seen boxes for Twinstars, I don't think I've seen any RGB versions over any tanks.



Yeah, so I dropped in today and took a look around, they do have a 60cm display tank with a Twinstar E on it. That’s the one I was thinking of and wanted to check out again.


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## swarley

I'm interested to see what you end up picking and how it works out. I'm starting to plan my next 60U build and the Twinstar E seems just so nice - grows plants well, wont break the bank and 60$ cheaper than the S..tho now I want to invest in the S for 60 more so i can have a light that grows any plant i'd want and just needs a dimmer..it's a hard decision for sure.


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## Kaiede

swarley said:


> I'm interested to see what you end up picking and how it works out. I'm starting to plan my next 60U build and the Twinstar E seems just so nice - grows plants well, wont break the bank and 60$ cheaper than the S..tho now I want to invest in the S for 60 more so i can have a light that grows any plant i'd want and just needs a dimmer..it's a hard decision for sure.



Yeah, complicating the decision is that I can’t get the AI Prime locally to see what it looks like in person first. At least not the FW version. But I will say that the Twinstar produces some nice looking output. I just wish there was a ramp timer as flexible as the TC-420, but wasn’t dependent on flaky software. I like the moonlight phases I have now in the morning an evenings that let me check up on the fish before work and bed, but I haven’t been able to get Win 10 and PLED to update the 420 for a couple months now.

I’m also still trying to track down a 60U. One local store had price listings for the 60U and 90U, but none on hand, and they weren’t even sure if they can get one for me.


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## swarley

@Kaiede 
There's gotta be a store in the Seattle greater area that stock them...if not my recommendation would be to check out Aqua Lab Aquaria. Free shipping and at 130$. I would have bought it from them, and was about to, but my local aquascaping shop stocks them and will have it for even a bit cheaper so I get to support my local shop.

That's the one draw back of the twinstar. At least it's fairly easy to add a dimmer to. But ramp up and down is quite nice because it extends viewing hours essentially for the tank. 

SO AI Prime has the customization, but then mounting them sucks balls. Always costs extra, and the first party mounting options aren't great apparently. The twinstars look great, known to grow plants well and have good color spectrum and already comes with mounting legs, but don't ramp and aren't easily programmable like the AI Prime...


Edit: I am leaning slightly to Twinstars because just ease of use and no hassle with mounting and the sleek look to them. If i were to do a bigger tank, then I'd go with the AI pucks because i'd likely be hanging my lights pendant style anyways.


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## Kaiede

swarley said:


> There's gotta be a store in the Seattle greater area that stock them...if not my recommendation would be to check out Aqua Lab Aquaria. Free shipping and at 130$. I would have bought it from them, and was about to, but my local aquascaping shop stocks them and will have it for even a bit cheaper so I get to support my local shop.


There's two retailers listed for UNS in the area. One only stocks ADA tanks in the 60+cm sizes, but said she would get back to me if she could special order one. The other even had a price for the 60U, but no stock, and no idea if they could order me one. So... *shrug*. 

I'm supposed to get a call back on Monday or so letting me know. If not, I'll probably look at backordering with Aqua Lab Aquaria. 

----

Anyhow, I did get an AI Prime in today to test with, and here's what I'm noticing already while playing with it:


 The white balance is definitely warm when compared to other LED setups. Makes me think a lot of the Kessil 160, actually. Not a bad thing though, but I can see how folks might disagree if they like something more around 7500K. 
 iOS app is a bit buggy, but better than Fluval's. Better stability, and the features are pretty good. Being able to control it from a browser without internet access is also very good. 
 One thing I wasn't thinking about was how pucks/spots and strips differ in terms of shadows. A good strip light provides its own fill light from multiple angles. The puck winds up casting shadows. This feels like an aesthetic choice, and one I honestly wasn't thinking too much about. 
 My living space is pretty quiet... and I can hear the fan in places where I normally just want to sit and relax or work nearby. 

I'm now even more of the opinion that there really needs to be something like the Twinstar with the AI Prime's configurability. 

The AI Prime is a really nice light, but I think I'm going to go with the Twinstar at this point. And it really boils down to the fact that I like the fill light effect better, and not needing the fans. I can get by with something similar to what @voyetra8 put together for their Twinstar for dimming/ramping. I also wonder if there's other ramp timers mostly compatible out of the box, like Current USA's.


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## voyetra8

Kaiede said:


> I also wonder if there's other ramp timers mostly compatible out of the box, like Current USA's.


I looked hi and low, and the ~$15 controller I linked in that thread was the best option I could find. (I decided against the TC-420 for the same reason you mentioned.) 

The app works fine, if a bit unpolished... and it retains all setting locally - so if it disconnects from the net, it won't forget your settings. 

I'm sure someone more ambitions / smarter / dexterous than me could rig each of the color channels individually and use the controller/app in a more sophisticated way.


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## swarley

Thanks for your detailed thoughts on the Prime Fresh. Seems like something i'd consider for a larger tank, but for a 60U size, I'm now thinking I'll go with Twinstar now. Cheers!


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## Kaiede

voyetra8 said:


> I looked hi and low, and the ~$15 controller I linked in that thread was the best option I could find. (I decided against the TC-420 for the same reason you mentioned.)



I don’t *need* control from a mobile phone, myself, so it can be a bit more basic. Just control over the ramp behavior to control the photo period timing. If I felt like I had the time, I might be tempted to build a PWM driver for something like the StormX controller. A little surprised a pre-built version doesn’t seem to already exist to use in place of the Meanwell driver board. 



swarley said:


> Thanks for your detailed thoughts on the Prime Fresh. Seems like something i'd consider for a larger tank, but for a 60U size, I'm now thinking I'll go with Twinstar now. Cheers!



Yeah, you’d get better fill light with a pair of these. I do kinda like the look of the shadows you get, though. Just not what I’m going for in my tanks.


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## Wobblebonk

Is the 600E 24V? can you wire it up to https://www.ledsupply.com/power-sup...MIhYazwayM3AIV2rrACh3C9AErEAQYASABEgIHWPD_BwE ? and control a different meanwell from the stormx? heh

Would need the 10v pwm converter thingy but not that much actual work, just a little bit of wiring?


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## swarley

> Yeah, you’d get better fill light with a pair of these. I do kinda like the look of the shadows you get, though. Just not what I’m going for in my tanks.


Same here. My first scape on the 60U will be an Iwagumi and I'd rather just have full light coverage for good overall growth.

Bump: What's that thing supposed to do Wobble? Just dim? There's a fairly cheap dimmer from Chihiros, the chinese LED brand, that should work with the twinstars. I'll try it out once I decide which Twinstar to get (E or S) and get the light in.


----------



## Wobblebonk

Kaiede said:


> I don’t *need* control from a mobile phone, myself, so it can be a bit more basic. Just control over the ramp behavior to control the photo period timing. If I felt like I had the time, I might be tempted to build a PWM driver for something like the StormX controller. A little surprised a pre-built version doesn’t seem to already exist to use in place of the Meanwell driver board.


wow the amount of editing i had to do to get that in a quote box is dumb heh


----------



## Kaiede

Wobblebonk said:


> Is the 600E 24V? can you wire it up to https://www.ledsupply.com/power-sup...MIhYazwayM3AIV2rrACh3C9AErEAQYASABEgIHWPD_BwE ? and control a different meanwell from the stormx? heh
> 
> Would need the 10v pwm converter thingy but not that much actual work, just a little bit of wiring?



Actually, @jeffkrol is pointing out what I’m thinking of in this thread:
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/1275589-dimming-multiple-fixtures.html#post11084423

That can pretty much be fed the PWM signal directly, and is cheaper since it doesn’t include a power supply of its own which needs to be matched to your LED output. 

The Bluefish can produce a ramp like what I want to produce, but at double the cost of the StormX/HurricaneX. Either one can use these MOSFET “relays” for these constant voltage lights.


----------



## Wobblebonk

What is the ramp you want to produce? What about the mini?

I'm trying to change the firmware on my hurricanex but I have been completely unable to talk to it over ftdi thus far. I'm going to try and overwrite it with icsp (that's what they do) and if that doesn't work then I'm really at a loss. I have no idea if I need to use a specific version but I know what version and libraries they actually use if it doesn't work at all and I need to go back...

If it works I've got a lot of space to make some silly features like more time periods and I've coded most of that but need to debug it and if I have to use the original libraries I might have to cut some of the features I added and only fix the bug I got into this mess over anyhow, which is that channels 8-16 do not update properly in some circumstances (they work with the ramp timer fine so settings sort of work if you don't play with it after setup). 

Obviously this is way deep into the weeds but I sent them an elf file of my build to see if they can load it over icsp, but I don't expect to hear back until next week and I won't have the cable to write to it over icsp till next week either. I think 99% of users aren't going to channel 12 like me :/


----------



## Kaiede

Is the source for those units available? If so, interesting... That’s something I can poke at.

Mostly I want two things:
- A definable moonlight period on both ends of the photoperiod. Think being able the check on the fish in the mornings and late evenings, but being off overnight.
- Bonus points for supporting a split photoperiod with the moonlight in between.


----------



## Wobblebonk

If you just ask they will send the source code, I've had a hell of a time updating the sketch/firmware over ftdi though.

I'm also adding something like that except calling it morning and evening, currently i've got it coded up so "day" can be set below those so can do a split period. (By default day can't be below night period settings)
Though I will actually be using it as morning and evening like I suppose it's the same except a lot more light than moonlight and a lot less than day... with longass ramp times :/ except maybe into and out of day.

I've got it all coded up except for linking the lightning and cloud channel settings to morning/evening. This all depends on my ability to use the newer versions of the libraries than they were using, I don't know why I wouldn't be able to but I am not certain it will work yet. (I couldn't talk to mine over ftdi in any version I tried, sadly they said it works on 2 / 16 of their computers and is finicky.) 

If it works I need to debug and I think the lightning/cloud stuff should be doable in the remaining space. And I need to break their ramp period into 2 settings, maybe I will make this optional evening/morning are optional. I also want to make it consistent in how it determines where the ramp starts from it's like you set the start of day's ramp period and the start of the actual night period right now which I think is weird they should work the same way...

Actually I added more features than that but they would be useless for a single channel and I've as of yet been unable to check anything past compiling it.

OH i need to make the sim mode include morning/evening also (this steps through your ramp settings from night -> day to check things easier)

It's a memory limit game unfortunately so I did nonsense like removing all uses of sprintf to not load sprintf... those parts sure are ugly to read now though heh.


----------



## Kaiede

Yeah, I think I’ll wind up putting together a Bluefish Mini controller setup once I get the time to put together a shopping list for the parts I need. In the mean time I can use one of my dumb timers.

For those curious what my thoughts are, since I’ve been able to do comparisons between the Fluval, the Twinstar and the Prime now, I still think jeffkrol’s comments of “you can’t go wrong with either” are spot on. 

———

The Fluval 3.0:

 Built in ramp support. Not perfect, but usable. 
 Most “neutral” white by default, but also the most tunable in color temp.
 Assumes you’ll drop it on top of the tank, but has a hanging kit. 
 Reds don’t pop quite as much as the other lights, but still better than the cheap white/blue LED strips.

My Thoughts: This is a good light in this price range, and easily one of the most tweakable of the of the three in terms of white balance. 

It’s flexible, except when it comes to scheduling. If you want the color temp flexibility, and the built in scheduling is sufficient, this is a really good choice. I do recommend thinking about risers or hanging it, especially if you have a tank size between their light sizes. 

———

The Twinstar E:

 Have to build/buy your own ramp controller. 
 Coolest white temp of the three, but not overly sterile like some cheaper LEDs at this color temp. 
 Most Red/Green “pop”, and generally very good saturation of plants and fish. 
 Built-in stand is very useful for getting good coverage. Easier to get coverage on a 75cm tank with the 600EA than the Fluval, which needs risers or being hung to get the same coverage.

My Thoughts: This is my current favorite for a rimless setup for aesthetic reasons and the minimalist look. It provides a pleasing look in the tank, and good coverage. 

The dealbreakers for many here I think is the lack of ramp control in the box. It is an extra cost, but you get more flexibility in that you can build your own that you can carry forward if you do custom light setups/etc in the future.

———

The AI Prime:

 Built-in controls are the best on this list. 
 The warmest on this list, and cannot really be driven past 7000-8000K, and even then the power drops too much. This is really a 4000-6500K fixture. 
 Very similar to the Twinstar in Red/Green pop. 
 Mounting options aren’t the best, with the hanging kit being the best, but adds expense if you don’t have something to hang it from.
 The only one on this list to let you get a spotlight effect, or to cast noticeable shade in parts of the tank. 
 Noisiest of the three, as it is the only one with a fan.

My Thoughts: This has a lot to like, IMO. It has more power available, and can be used to generate shade in ways no strip light ever could. The configurability is the best as well. 

But for many I expect the main deal breakers will be the fan sound, mounting options, and the warm light. 

Honestly, a version of this that trades some size for more passive cooling would be very interesting. I’m thinking something more in the shape of the SBReef 32” lights, but lower power to avoid the need for the number of fans. 

———

It’s hard to call out a true winner here, it’s all about trade offs. Fluval is the best “jack of all trades” though, of the three. The Prime has better control/power, while the Twinstar has better mounting/aesthetics.


----------



## Kaiede

Thought I might add a bit here since I got the Bluefish in.

Upside: The Bluefish Mini plus the MOSFET relays go perfect with each other. Not hard to get it wired up to power the Bluefish and the light from the light’s power supply. 

Downside: The app is functional but slow as it is a skin on a web browser tool. And you have to create a login per controller, and you have to log out and back in to switch between them. Generally not a fan. Once configured it does a good job though. Got a nice ramp and thunderstorm effects out of the Twinstar this evening.

It’s gotten me to fish out that unused Raspberry Pi and start reading. I’m pretty sure I can drive the MOSFET switch using the GPIO pins. I can probably build out a web interface I can use on the thing too. Overkill, maybe, but it’ll work (eventually).


----------



## jeffkrol

THANK YOU for being my guinea pig..

Knew the relays were the ticket and w/ the elevated power handling a very good addition to the arsenal..

BUT, forgive my stupidity.. did you need to add a ground to the "ground" pad on the PWM input side?
(never mind BFM and StormX ect have a ground pin, this really applies to the TC-420 hack..and
just for verification. Also for multiple different power supplies.. i.e each "relay" controlling a different voltage power brick)
Like finishing this:

https://www.qualiteitems.com/images/control1.JPG
THINKING tapping the neg of the 12V converter (12V side) and feeding back to the "neg" of each PWM relay board
and the Neg side of the 36V (that one is to me the ???)
for the PWM negative input pad.
I do like to think of them as "digital solid state relays".. 


I really liked the Bluefish but like anything.. still warts..
Had a heck of a time getting BLYNK to sync.. 
Had login errors w/ some tablet OS's and the network settings.(long story I care not to remember)
Fixed w/ some tweak in Android something or other..
Would logon sometimes, sometimes not..

Still want one w/ multi-point programming and split channel schedules.... Keep thinking about that pi..
someone needs to simply port a Radion software clone to a cheap controller..
Well TC-420(1) did to a certain degree but crude dimming steps overall..and not "instantaneous" communication

No it's not overkill it's needed .. well I need it.. LOL 
Ultimate would be log ramping..
You know, it's sort of funny that most of the DIY programming done for aquariums go full on "everything" yet rarely really concentrate on the lighting except sort of bare bones..


----------



## Wobblebonk

intensity = pwm_settings[current_channel_index]_ - ((pwm_settings[current_channel_index] - pwm_settings[4]) >> 1) * (1 - cos(3.14 * (now.unixtime() - (sunsetTime - nightTransTime * 60)) / ((nightTransTime - pwm_settings[2]) * 60)));
What do I need to do to improve?_


----------



## jeffkrol

Wobblebonk said:


> intensity = pwm_settings[current_channel_index]_ - ((pwm_settings[current_channel_index] - pwm_settings[4]) >> 1) * (1 - cos(3.14 * (now.unixtime() - (sunsetTime - nightTransTime * 60)) / ((nightTransTime - pwm_settings[2]) * 60)));
> What do I need to do to improve?_


_


now you are just showing off... 


https://diarmuid.ie/blog/pwm-exponential-led-fading-on-arduino-or-other-platforms/

A LUT works as well..

Linearizing an LED for 800 pwm steps'?
https://ericjformanteaching.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/how-to-make-led-brightness-linear/
https://electronics.stackexchange.c...-non-linear-brightness-in-leds-when-using-pwm
LED brightness setting with Arduino PWM ? ELECTROpit

Pick one.. 

Someone uses floating point..
https://www.reddit.com/r/electronics/comments/18148v/how_to_fade_an_led_linearly_using_pwm/

Simple paper;
https://cdn-learn.adafruit.com/downloads/pdf/led-tricks-gamma-correction.pdf

One thing that does confuse me is the 'disconnect" between driver and data bit rate..

Currently a lot of controllers say they output 10-12bit PWM points but can the driver "use' them?
Linear LED PWM




The constants at the top can be changed to suit the microcontroller. For instance, if you wanted to use a 10 bit PWM, you could set INT_SIZE=1024. This would still generate a table with 256 entries, but the output will be 10 bits.

Because this conversion reduces the resolution of the PWM, it may indeed be wise to use a 10 bit PWM. This is exactly what I did in my LED Coffee Table Project.

Click to expand...

_


----------



## Kaiede

jeffkrol said:


> THANK YOU for being my guinea pig..
> 
> Knew the relays were the ticket and w/ the elevated power handling a very good addition to the arsenal..


I wasn’t worried too much about them working. I may be rusty, but what I do remember from EE still comes in handy from time to time.



jeffkrol said:


> BUT, forgive my stupidity.. did you need to add a ground to the "ground" pad on the PWM input side?


As you’ve already noticed, the Bluefish does have a per-channel ground, making it super easy. The board puts VIN- and the GND pin into the board’s ground plane, as you’d expect. Because I’m working with a 12V supply (the Bluefish accepts up to around 17V), I just hooked VIN to the Bluefish for power. I’d need to put a better case together and not have feet of excess ribbon cable, but it works fine without a heat sink for the 3A load. 



jeffkrol said:


> Like finishing this:
> 
> https://www.qualiteitems.com/images/control1.JPG
> THINKING tapping the neg of the 12V converter (12V side) and feeding back to the "neg" of each PWM relay board
> and the Neg side of the 36V (that one is to me the ???)
> for the PWM negative input pad.
> I do like to think of them as "digital solid state relays"..


So, because the GND pin and VIN- are tied together on the relay boards, you don’t need to feed back VIN- to it yourself. I’d just want to make sure you don’t have any floating ground pins anywhere.

I’d also want to tie the various VIN- levels together, which the GND pin is useful for here. There’s 3 pads for each the PWM and GND connections, making chaining a straight-forward task. But if you are able to use the controller to set the ground level by hooking up GND to the controller for each channel, it will accomplish the same task with less risk of a floating ground point somewhere.



jeffkrol said:


> You know, it's sort of funny that most of the DIY programming done for aquariums go full on "everything" yet rarely really concentrate on the lighting except sort of bare bones..



Because of pre-built kits like Arduino, I would have expected some better options, but it seems like the Bluefish and StormX are more from micro controller engineers and just don’t have the experience backing them up with more modern user interfaces. 

The Bluefish 2 app would probably be better if it was done up in ReactNative, at the very least. 

I will play a bit with Node-RED since I think this has enough modules floating around to assemble what I need. The trick will be if I can also assemble a REST API to also build an app for my phone/tablet for control over WiFi.


----------



## Wobblebonk

Well I'm hacking out all of the geolocation auto settings and moonphase stuff, might as well use the space I'm freeing up... this doesn't seem too hard to implement, I didn't realize this was more for cycling through the pwm levels though instead of the ramp itself...


----------



## jeffkrol

Kaiede said:


> As you’ve already noticed, the Bluefish does have a per-channel ground, making it super easy. The board puts VIN- and the GND pin into the board’s ground plane, as you’d expect. Because I’m working with a 12V supply (the Bluefish accepts up to around 17V), I just hooked VIN to the Bluefish for power. I’d need to put a better case together and not have feet of excess ribbon cable, but it works fine without a heat sink for the 3A load.
> 
> 
> 
> So, because the GND pin and VIN- are tied together on the relay boards, you don’t need to feed back VIN- to it yourself. I’d just want to make sure you don’t have any floating ground pins anywhere.
> 
> I’d also want to tie the various VIN- levels together, which the GND pin is useful for here. There’s 3 pads for each the PWM and GND connections, making chaining a straight-forward task. But if you are able to use the controller to set the ground level by hooking up GND to the controller for each channel, it will accomplish the same task with less risk of a floating ground point somewhere.


1/2 follow you there but this was the most important one:
So, because the GND pin and VIN- are tied together on the relay boards,


The diagram is specifically a tc-420 and it's PWM output is a tap off the internal MOSFET gate. As I understand it, probably tied to power in ground.


mffftt.. anyways the LDD side here is more my issue. When I was more green than now (not by much) my biggest mistake was not tying the led ps's to the controller board.
don't know why but it always confused me..


anyways late and I'm rambling.. soo 

this is what I always envisioned for this setup.. cyan trace is a ground tie to err ..everything and think it will work well, needed or not I guess:


http://www.qualiteitems.com/images/control2.jpg

Yellow PWM "gate" wires tapped internally in the TC-420
12V goes to input on the TC420.
Drawn funny should be upper right of the box.
Cyan does not hook the ps grounds except for the last one (which is what i'm struggling with.)
From what you said really doesn't matter since the boards will all be tied in anyways because the 2 sides share a common ground (input/output/PWM side).
tomorrow moring I'll prob. see none of thi makes sense.. 

Oh and the converter board isn't needed since the tc can take 12-24V. Was put in for other controllers, forgot that.
Either the 15 or 21v will work directly .

JUST noticed.. so the MOSFETS should prob be heat sink w/ larger loads?
another point worth remembering..

See ldd's won't dim w/ out tying to the controller but that is w/ 2 ps's.:










so if it was one ps woudn't be necessary..sort of obvious I guess.
I'm making it more complicated than it needs to be..but looks harmless..


----------



## Wobblebonk

const unsigned int cie[256] = {
0, 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 12, 14, 16, 
18, 20, 21, 23, 25, 27, 28, 30, 32, 34, 
36, 37, 39, 41, 43, 45, 47, 49, 52, 54, 
56, 59, 61, 64, 66, 69, 72, 75, 77, 80, 
83, 87, 90, 93, 96, 100, 103, 107, 111, 115, 
118, 122, 126, 131, 135, 139, 144, 148, 153, 157, 
162, 167, 172, 177, 182, 187, 193, 198, 204, 209, 
215, 221, 227, 233, 239, 246, 252, 259, 265, 272, 
279, 286, 293, 300, 308, 315, 323, 330, 338, 346, 
354, 362, 371, 379, 388, 396, 405, 414, 423, 432, 
442, 451, 461, 470, 480, 490, 501, 511, 521, 532, 
543, 553, 564, 576, 587, 598, 610, 622, 634, 646, 
658, 670, 683, 695, 708, 721, 734, 748, 761, 775, 
788, 802, 816, 831, 845, 860, 874, 889, 904, 920, 
935, 951, 966, 982, 999, 1015, 1031, 1048, 1065, 1082, 
1099, 1116, 1134, 1152, 1170, 1188, 1206, 1224, 1243, 1262, 
1281, 1300, 1320, 1339, 1359, 1379, 1399, 1420, 1440, 1461, 
1482, 1503, 1525, 1546, 1568, 1590, 1612, 1635, 1657, 1680, 
1703, 1726, 1750, 1774, 1797, 1822, 1846, 1870, 1895, 1920, 
1945, 1971, 1996, 2022, 2048, 2074, 2101, 2128, 2155, 2182, 
2209, 2237, 2265, 2293, 2321, 2350, 2378, 2407, 2437, 2466, 
2496, 2526, 2556, 2587, 2617, 2648, 2679, 2711, 2743, 2774, 
2807, 2839, 2872, 2905, 2938, 2971, 3005, 3039, 3073, 3107, 
3142, 3177, 3212, 3248, 3283, 3319, 3356, 3392, 3429, 3466, 
3503, 3541, 3578, 3617, 3655, 3694, 3732, 3772, 3811, 3851, 
3891, 3931, 3972, 4012, 4054, 4095, 
};

Hrm well no repeats @ 12 bit depth, I think I'll change it over to storing all the values as a single unsigned byte instead of an int and just use the lut everytime, and display the lut value instead of 0-255, they didn't ask for this change but I guess they're getting it heh. Thanks though anyhow got any other ideas actually this freed up space for me not took it away heh. Sorry for the derail!

actually I manually edited the start to be 0, 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16,


----------



## jeffkrol

Wobblebonk said:


> const unsigned int cie[256] = {
> 0, 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 12, 14, 16,
> 18, 20, 21, 23, 25, 27, 28, 30, 32, 34,
> 36, 37, 39, 41, 43, 45, 47, 49, 52, 54,
> 56, 59, 61, 64, 66, 69, 72, 75, 77, 80,
> 83, 87, 90, 93, 96, 100, 103, 107, 111, 115,
> 118, 122, 126, 131, 135, 139, 144, 148, 153, 157,
> 162, 167, 172, 177, 182, 187, 193, 198, 204, 209,
> 215, 221, 227, 233, 239, 246, 252, 259, 265, 272,
> 279, 286, 293, 300, 308, 315, 323, 330, 338, 346,
> 354, 362, 371, 379, 388, 396, 405, 414, 423, 432,
> 442, 451, 461, 470, 480, 490, 501, 511, 521, 532,
> 543, 553, 564, 576, 587, 598, 610, 622, 634, 646,
> 658, 670, 683, 695, 708, 721, 734, 748, 761, 775,
> 788, 802, 816, 831, 845, 860, 874, 889, 904, 920,
> 935, 951, 966, 982, 999, 1015, 1031, 1048, 1065, 1082,
> 1099, 1116, 1134, 1152, 1170, 1188, 1206, 1224, 1243, 1262,
> 1281, 1300, 1320, 1339, 1359, 1379, 1399, 1420, 1440, 1461,
> 1482, 1503, 1525, 1546, 1568, 1590, 1612, 1635, 1657, 1680,
> 1703, 1726, 1750, 1774, 1797, 1822, 1846, 1870, 1895, 1920,
> 1945, 1971, 1996, 2022, 2048, 2074, 2101, 2128, 2155, 2182,
> 2209, 2237, 2265, 2293, 2321, 2350, 2378, 2407, 2437, 2466,
> 2496, 2526, 2556, 2587, 2617, 2648, 2679, 2711, 2743, 2774,
> 2807, 2839, 2872, 2905, 2938, 2971, 3005, 3039, 3073, 3107,
> 3142, 3177, 3212, 3248, 3283, 3319, 3356, 3392, 3429, 3466,
> 3503, 3541, 3578, 3617, 3655, 3694, 3732, 3772, 3811, 3851,
> 3891, 3931, 3972, 4012, 4054, 4095,
> };
> 
> Hrm well no repeats @ 12 bit depth, I think I'll change it over to storing all the values as a single unsigned byte instead of an int and just use the lut everytime, and display the lut value instead of 0-255, they didn't ask for this change but I guess they're getting it heh. Thanks though anyhow got any other ideas actually this freed up space for me not took it away heh. Sorry for the derail!



Great!..
BTW:
Found a LUT calculator.. 
Gamma Correction for Pulsing LED's | TronicsLab


----------



## Wobblebonk

I used that cie guys python script just modified a little, I will defer to his explanation that 


> A common misconception is that gamma correction should be used, as it does have a very similar response to the eye. However, gamma correction has nothing to do with how humans perceive light, it is just coincidence that it appears to work. The CIE 1931 lightness formula is what actually describes how we perceive light


 but they both probably work about the same in practice especially with a lut with reduced # of steps.


----------



## jeffkrol

Wobblebonk said:


> I used that cie guys python script just modified a little, I will defer to his explanation that
> 
> but they both probably work about the same in practice especially with a lut with reduced # of steps.



You da man!..


----------



## Kaiede

jeffkrol said:


> 1/2 follow you there but this was the most important one:
> So, because the GND pin and VIN- are tied together on the relay boards,
> 
> 
> The diagram is specifically a tc-420 and it's PWM output is a tap off the internal MOSFET gate. As I understand it, probably tied to power in ground.


Yeah, it's more that I tend to distrust things I am modifying, and try to tie things together the "correct" way, rather than the "allowable" way. My main worry is a situation where someone took a shortcut and instead of tying their ground pin to ground themselves, they intended the external device to _provide_ ground to make the board smaller, or whatever. The 420 is _probably_ fine, since the MOSFET needs a ground reference to operate correctly, but I'd personally tap that MOSFET's ground reference as well and feed that to the GND pad on the MOSFET relays, if I was doing that sort of work myself.

I'm more cautious than I probably need to be, but especially in circuits routing >500mA, I find it better to be wasteful of wire/solder than sorry. 





jeffkrol said:


> this is what I always envisioned for this setup.. cyan trace is a ground tie to err ..everything and think it will work well, needed or not I guess:
> 
> 
> http://www.qualiteitems.com/images/control2.jpg
> 
> Yellow PWM "gate" wires tapped internally in the TC-420
> 12V goes to input on the TC420.
> Drawn funny should be upper right of the box.
> Cyan does not hook the ps grounds except for the last one (which is what i'm struggling with.)
> From what you said really doesn't matter since the boards will all be tied in anyways because the 2 sides share a common ground (input/output/PWM side).
> tomorrow moring I'll prob. see none of thi makes sense..
> 
> Oh and the converter board isn't needed since the tc can take 12-24V. Was put in for other controllers, forgot that.
> Either the 15 or 21v will work directly .


Yeah, because you don't need the converter board, you can probably get away with just running a wire between the GND pads of the two MOSFET relays, and then another wire from the GND pad and the negative input on the LDDs. That will tie all three PSUs' negative terminals together properly. 

The GND and PWM connections on the relay boards have 3 pads for each, making it really easy to chain GND, or even chain the PWM input if you want to control two relays on the same channel. 



jeffkrol said:


> JUST noticed.. so the MOSFETS should prob be heat sink w/ larger loads?
> another point worth remembering..


The "specs" claim 15A without it. That seems like pushing the thermal limit pretty hard, to me. I would be surprised if you can find a light running anything more than 6A, though, so it's probably fine in most cases. The large copper planes on the PCB help dissipate some of the heat as well, and the MOSFET is properly mounted on the PCB to leverage it as a sink. 

I've only tested at 3A though, so I can't say what it will do beyond that for certain. That's mostly what I was saying. Surprisingly, they were room temp in the 1.5-2A range. But being me, I'd probably try to mount them on aluminum, just because. 

----

I have been looking a bit more about this project, which is getting a bit more interesting. Right now I'm looking at it this way:

Step 1:
- Python Daemon that controls the GPIO
- JSON Configuration for the Daemon

Step 2:
- Python REST Configuration API using Flask
- How to Read/Write Configuration with Daemon? Something like MQTT?

Step 3:
- Enable mDNS/Bonjour for Discovery of the Controller on the Network
- Use Flask to Build a Web Configuration Tool
- Start Building an iOS App using the REST API

The daemon owns the periodic work of changing the PWM settings based on time/etc. It uses the JSON as a place to read settings from between power losses. The rest are all the configuration pieces that passes on changes to the daemon. This should keep things going in a stable manner.


----------



## jeffkrol

> The "specs" claim 15A without it. That seems like pushing the thermal limit pretty hard, to me. I would be surprised if you can find a light running anything more than 6A,


Had the 72" Beamswork EVO quads in mind. will check on amps. I know they exceeded the TC's 4A..but if memory serves 6-8ish is in the ballpark..
Fortunately they are split into 2 "units" really..
Heat sinking never hurts.. AFAICT.


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## Kaiede

Yeah, heat sinking never hurts anything but the wallet. 

But wire gauge and trace size is generally the reason I haven't seen anything exceed 6A.


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## jeffkrol

Kaiede said:


> Yeah, heat sinking never hurts anything but the wallet.
> 
> But wire gauge and trace size is generally the reason I haven't seen anything exceed 6A.



Well wasn't even close..
72" Beamswork 





> Includes 96 LEDs
> 13000 Lumen
> 3 watt LEDs
> 96x 6500K



Uses 2 power bricks 

[email protected] approx 3 Watts = 144 (more like probably 2.x W in reality)
run at 12 Volts (Don't think they are 15V)
12 Amps...(10 whatever.. needs to be measured)

more than 6A.. 


3.3V V(f) approx.
roughly 750Ma to each sting of 3. 16 parallel strings ..PER 1/2 fixture.


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## Kaiede

jeffkrol said:


> [email protected] approx 3 Watts = 144 (more like probably 2.x W in reality)
> run at 12 Volts (Don't think they are 15V)
> 12 Amps...(10 whatever.. needs to be measured)
> 
> more than 6A..


The more interesting numbers are off the power bricks themselves, IMO. Their output voltage and max design current. Those sort of designed maximums are what _should_ be determining the thickness of the cable to run between the supply and the light. 

But it does sound like they are pushing quite a bit of current there. I'm honestly surprised they didn't up the voltage a bit. Perhaps because they are trying to be a budget option, they are quite literally avoiding having to make design changes to their circuits, and building that Quad Evo like it is two separate lights to get more economy of scale.


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## jeffkrol

Kaiede said:


> The more interesting numbers are off the power bricks themselves, IMO. Their output voltage and max design current. Those sort of designed maximums are what _should_ be determining the thickness of the cable to run between the supply and the light.
> 
> But it does sound like they are pushing quite a bit of current there. I'm honestly surprised they didn't up the voltage a bit. Perhaps because they are trying to be a budget option, they are quite literally avoiding having to make design changes to their circuits, and building that Quad Evo like it is two separate lights to get more economy of scale.



they had the duo to begin.. then just doubled the real estate..
Yea was looking for a pic of the brick or even a replacement for sale to see what they spec out at..


Beamswork does use 12,15,21, and 24V ps's..
3 and 4 diodes is the usual serial strings though.


They "may" be 24V so 1/2 the current but not sure atm...so I could be wrong..
Might be why I was remembering the 6-7A figure earlier..


Confirmed on this one: 24V though it also states 35W ???
So 8 in series??? That fits.. 6A





https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Gre...t-Fixture-Reef-Capable-96x3W/32787651654.html

Hey computer ps's are much larger @ 12v.. 
Everything looks Bigger today..


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## Kaiede

jeffkrol said:


> Hey computer ps's are much larger @ 12v..
> Everything looks Bigger today..



They also spread the current over many, shorter connections (less wire resistance, less worry about heating from excessive current). A GPU can run 3 V+ wires to carry the current it needs at 12V with the 6 pin power connector.

Quite a bit different from your run of the mill 5.5OD power plug.


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## Kaiede

Maybe I should use a different thread to track development of this project of mine... oh well.

Looked at the PWM options. Details are a little sparse, but it looks like with the RPi board itself, I can get ~500Hz with ~10bits of resolution in the duty cycle. Not bad but not on the same level as the commercial options. 

I can go into something a bit fancier and get a dedicated PWM I2C expansion. 16 Channels of 3.3V PWM at 12-bit. 

I think once some parts arrive tomorrow I’ll do some testing to see what I can actually do without the dedicated expansion. Ramp smoothness tests and lightning tests in particular.


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## jeffkrol

Kaiede said:


> I can go into something a bit fancier and get a dedicated PWM I2C expansion. 16 Channels of 3.3V PWM at 12-bit.


Note that the smaller LDD-L's need a PWM signal larger than 3.3V (3.5-8).
Difference between Bluefish mini (3.3V) and full Bluefish (>3.3V).


covering as many bases as necessary.


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## Kaiede

jeffkrol said:


> Note that the smaller LDD-L's need a PWM signal larger than 3.3V (3.5-8).
> Difference between Bluefish mini (3.3V) and full Bluefish (>3.3V).
> 
> 
> covering as many bases as necessary.



That’s the downside of building this or using the Pi’s pins directly, you will only get 3.3V logic levels, and they will need to be converted to 5V or 10V if you need it. Since I’m focused a bit more on using these MOSFETs at the moment, I’m not focusing on building that. You could probably even wire it up for a couple channels on the HAT itself, honestly.

Right now I’ve been writing the layer that abstracts away the underlying PWM implementation from the rest of the controller, isolating them into “drivers”. I’ve got a simulated driver (so I can test the higher level code on my home PC), and a DMA-timed driver. But I’m putting together the hardware PWM driver together now, and will be playing with a test ramp tool to see what it all actually looks like this evening. It looks like I took someone’s ignorant comment about the hardware PWM seriously, and the hardware PWM is actually a lot better than I originally thought, so I want to see what it can do.

Then I’ll start writing the configuration / schedule loading behavior so I can see what it looks like to run a tank on the thing with a simple JSON-defined ramp. I think that I can probably get this thing running my Twinstar on a custom schedule of my choosing by the end of the weekend, unless I walk into a hard hurdle. 

Without adding anything, the DMA and Hardware options look decent, if not perfect for everyone:
- DMA: 500Hz with 2000 steps, 16 channels
- Hardware: 960Hz with 5000 steps, 2 channels only
- External PWM: 960Hz with 4096 steps, 16 channels, 20$ more


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## Kaiede

Good news, and bad news.

Good news: the hardware PWM is pretty ideal. I was able to notice the PWM flicker in the air bubbles during my test ramp at 960Hz. So, out of curiosity, I cranked it up 3x to 2.8Khz (the MOSFET switch claims 20KHz, so I figured I should be fine). No more flicker in the bubbles. If the library is acting properly, then I still have well plenty of resolution for dimming even going this fast, because it uses a 500Mhz base clock for the PWM generator. But I'll need to make the target PWM frequency adjustable, since Meanwell LDDs seem to be rated for up to 1Khz on the PWM input. 

Bad news: The DMA PWM I attempted to use isn't behaving properly. Changing the duty cycle for dimming itself causes flicker, and with the way the library is implemented, I can't really fix it. I'd need to implement it all myself. 

At this point, with how well the hardware PWM works on these boards, I think I'm going to ditch the DMA PWM driver entirely and just focus on the built-in hardware and the Adafruit expansion board support. I could make the DMA work, but with the time required to fix it, I could write the PWM HAT driver, and a basic scheduler in the same time it would take to fix the DMA support.

I've done the design work around that basic scheduler, and some future cleanup around configuring the channels. Since this would be aimed at a "wire it yourself" type kit, I'm looking to make it fairly easy to type up a small file telling the service how the Pi is wired up. That way, any future configuration UI (and the service itself) would be able to tell what is actually available, and not try to control channels that you may not have wired up.

So the support I'm looking to build is a bit like this:

Built-In (Tested, Works): 

 PWM: 480, 960, 1440, 1920, 2880Hz (Selectable)
 Resolution: 12+ bit
 Channels: 1-2 (second channel requires a 40-pin GPIO header)

Adafruit PWM Expansion: 480, 960, or 1440Hz PWM, 12 bit resolution, 16 Channels

 PWM: 480, 960, 1440Hz (Selectable)
 Resolution: 12 bit
 Channels: 1-16

So the next step is to see if I can build out the hardware configuration component, along with a super-basic scheduler that looks a lot like the TC-420's (but without the hard limit on events).


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## MonsterMan

I've been thinking about the Fluval 3.0.

But it seems really 'thin'.

Do you think it could handle a 28" deep, and 27" back to front tank? I'd need two as tank is 108". But am worried it won't sufficiently light the depth or width well.


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## Quagulator

MonsterMan said:


> I've been thinking about the Fluval 3.0.
> 
> But it seems really 'thin'.
> 
> Do you think it could handle a 28" deep, and 27" back to front tank? I'd need two as tank is 108". But am worried it won't sufficiently light the depth or width well.


I have a single 2.0 on an 18" front to back tank, sitting on rim, and that is pushing it for taller stem plants up the back of the tank. 

You can clearly see where the light is being cut off from the angle. (algae growth on glass is a clear indicator).

I would say 2 x front to back. 

So 4 units overall......


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## Quagulator

Also, this is Fluval's data directly off the box of a 2.0


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## swarley

At 28" deep it'll probably struggle a bit. Thats a rough tank to light. =/ I'd recommend the AI Prime freshes I think.


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## MonsterMan

Thank you for the help, information and suggestions. I did think I'd need 4 on my tank. Starts to get a bit expensive at that point.

Bump: Those AI Primes look really nice. I'd need at least 4 (probably 5) on my tank as they give a 24" x 24" spread. Looking at over £1000 on that.


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## jeffkrol

MonsterMan said:


> Thank you for the help, information and suggestions. I did think I'd need 4 on my tank. Starts to get a bit expensive at that point.
> 
> Bump: Those AI Primes look really nice. I'd need at least 4 (probably 5) on my tank as they give a 24" x 24" spread. Looking at over £1000 on that.



4 Orphek light bars $640US.
https://orphek.com/or-bar-led-light/
suggest a custom spectrum though

2 of these
https://sbreeflights.com/sbox-fw-plant-lights/34-sbox-pro-32-timer-fresh-water-plant.html


not sure what you can get delivered


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## mgeorges

MonsterMan said:


> Thank you for the help, information and suggestions. I did think I'd need 4 on my tank. Starts to get a bit expensive at that point.
> 
> Bump: Those AI Primes look really nice. I'd need at least 4 (probably 5) on my tank as they give a 24" x 24" spread. Looking at over £1000 on that.


I'd consider a T8 fixture as well, or a couple/few T5HO fixtures. Significantly cheaper initially than going with LED's, able to penetrate depth, awesome at growing plants! I ditched my LED's for a T5HO fixture on my main display tank, very happy I did.


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## jeffkrol

T5ho's about $200 total (suggest trying to find one w/ a 2/4 bulb switch or dual plugs) plus maybe $40-$60 in replacement tubes for the init. 6500k (not necessary but some would prob recommend a grow tube or 2)

https://www.amazon.com/MarsAqua-Dim...1&sr=1-3-spons&keywords=55w+led+aquarium&th=1

Cheapest LED I can think of (x2)
And one outlet.. 


> Free Combining: Equipped with double universal cascade. Normally one LED aquarium light is suitable for a 55 gallon 38″*24″ fish coral tank, and for bigger tanks, you can series multiple sets of LED light together at the same time without requiring more socket.


$367.98 (for 2)
And ch 1 would be dimmed for our use..
"Real" watts is prob closer to 400 for 2 units..
About equiv to 8 tubes..but more on the line 4-6 in practice..


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