# Yamato Green



## jebarj90 (Mar 11, 2007)

So i just ordered some yamato green from their site. 

Has anyone used this? 
What do you think of it? 
What makes it so incredible?


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

I sure the YG pimps will show up.

It's nothing special. Just ferts mixed with overpriced water.


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## kkentert (Jan 21, 2007)

I use it, love it and swear by it. It's done WONDERS to my tank- but don't talk about it. Rex get's REAL mad. he'll rant and rave forever about the fact that it's "not a legal fertilizer" It has everything you need in it, and if you NEED Nitrogen because you don't have enough fish, you can get yamato-N
Give it 6 weeks- You'll se a HUGE difference. In particular, watch for your red plants to get very pretty.
IMO-it's money well spent. It's not the cheapest, and not the most expensive. i think for the amoun tyou get it's pretty cheap for a liquid fert. You can get dry (which I haven't tried yet), but I'd rather pay a couple bucks extra to not have any hassel.
Are you running good lights and CO2?


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## jebarj90 (Mar 11, 2007)

Ya ive got AH supply 36 watt bright kit, and CO2. The tank is only 10 gallons so i'm doing good on the WPG. I ordered it. We will see how it does. I also gave in and got some Greg Watson dry ferts. The "EI" dosing seems to work wonders for people so i thought id give them a try. Im gonna have enough of that to last me until im 70 (18 years old now) but thats cool


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## mrbelvedere (Nov 15, 2005)

Rex Grigg said:


> I sure the YG pimps will show up.



Now why did you have to go and prove Rex right, kkentert?  



kkentert said:


> I use it, love it and swear by it. It's done WONDERS to my tank- but don't talk about it. Rex get's REAL mad. he'll rant and rave forever about the fact that it's "not a legal fertilizer" It has everything you need in it, and if you NEED Nitrogen because you don't have enough fish, you can get yamato-N
> Give it 6 weeks- You'll se a HUGE difference. In particular, watch for your red plants to get very pretty.


What's not legal about it?

Any balanced, comprehensive fertilizer regime will do wonders for a tank that was previously lacking it. The Seachem Fluorish line has the same basic idea as Greg Watson, same as Kent Botanica, and so forth.


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## kkentert (Jan 21, 2007)

I'm not really sure- Rex is on some high horse about tech specs(I think it's mainly because he wants to argue with people about things he's never tried) Anyway, he says it's not LEGALLY a fertilizer because it 's not x% this and y% that. I say it IS a very comprehensive fertilizer if you consider a fertilizer a mix of supplents that makes you plants grow like crazy. He seems to know more about what's in YG than the people who make it (who will happily talk to you about it if you call them- the guy spent a half hour on the phone with me the first time I bought it, and not "salesing" me up)-it's very funny.

The the difference i have seen with YG vs Flourish (which is what I used to use, as well as an Aquarium pharmacudical product i don't remeber the name of and a couple other liquid ferts) is that you only need one thing. They include it all, without making it so you have to buy2-5 bottles.(unless you need something that is probably already in your tank like Nitrogen which you can get Yamato-N for) Plus, it works a lot better. Rex reffers to me as a "yamato green pimp" (and it was soley me who he was talking about) but the difference between him and I is that I haven't tried dry ferts yet-and I'm open to it. He's never tried YG and has something against it.

hey- everyone's different. I say YG is woth a 6 week trial at least. Worst thing that happens is you end up wasting less than $20. In my opinion- ANY amount of money is wasted on something that doesn't work, or doesn't work well, and money spent one something that gives you a jungle is well spent!

Oh- One last thing - the key to why the stuff works so well (according to the makers) It contains growth stimulators. they won't say exactly which, or how much or anything, but they are present, and they're the key as to how you can mix the same "formula" at home that's on the bottle and not get the same results. Can you tell I LOVE the stuff?


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## PineyMike (Mar 22, 2006)

I think if there was a such thing as "growth stimulators" for plants they would be well known and everybody would be using them. There is no magic potion. No hocus pocus. Growth stimulators are NPK and micros. That's it. Also I may be wrong but how could this stuff contain everything you need when you aren't supposed to mix P with Fe? It must not have one of them.


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## kkentert (Jan 21, 2007)

There are stimulators- they are called Auxins. The thing is - there are many different kinds.
As for P with Fe- I asked the same question- they used to NOT put them in the formula together- they do now, and have not had any problems to date (they've been doing it I THINK they said for 6 years now) before that they did not, but when they wan test, they say found no problems with it. More than anything though- it works for me!   

I wonder if they're able to mix them because they make small batches that are fresh- Does it take a long time for them to react with each other? Does that make sense? But they said it still has a good shelf life (though it does have to be refridgerated...


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## Clone (Feb 29, 2004)

The Technical Specifications portion of Yamatos website states that phosphate is not included in YG because "excess Phosphate can stimulate unwanted algae growth" I will leave the merits of this statement to each individual. Anyways, I would like to know what specifically the auxins are. Perhaps a visit to the hydroponic store is in order.


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

Clone said:


> The Technical Specifications portion of Yamatos website states that phosphate is not included in YG because "excess Phosphate can stimulate unwanted algae growth" I will leave the merits of this statement to each individual. Anyways, I would like to know what specifically the auxins are. Perhaps a visit to the hydroponic store is in order.


If that is what they said then they are wrong. If you have a large amount of plants, are using CO2, have good filtration, and are dosing the correct ferts including Phosphate, then you should not have any algae. Phosphate will make your plants nice and colorful, along with iron as well.

If your plants are well nourished and healthy then you will not get any algae. I promise. If your plants are not nourished or healthy then the algae will gain from that. Good luck.

By the way, dosing EI is a great method. I have said this time and time again- there is not set amount of ferts to dose depending on the size tank you have. If you have a 29gallon you may need to dose a lot more ferts than someone elses 29gallon. The reason being is plant uptake. Use one of the dosing calculators on this site to figure out how to calculate how much your plants uptake/need. You may be surprised to find out how much more ferts your plants may need if you have a heavily planted tank.

-Ryan


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## kkentert (Jan 21, 2007)

I stand corrected- Sometimes I type to fast without giving it all the thoguht I should- Yes, there are NO phosphates. There should be phosphates in the tank already. If for some reason your tank does not have sufficient levels, you should dose that- but most likely, if your keeping fish in your planted tank, you should have them there. 
But now-I have to go back- there are two things you shoudn't mix that they do (if I remember correctly) I'l try and remember what they are instead of posting falsly again- be back with the info later...


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

kkentert said:


> I stand corrected- Sometimes I type to fast without giving it all the thoguht I should- Yes, there are NO phosphates. There should be phosphates in the tank already. If for some reason your tank does not have sufficient levels, you should dose that- but most likely, if your keeping fish in your planted tank, you should have them there.
> But now-I have to go back- there are two things you shoudn't mix that they do (if I remember correctly) I'l try and remember what they are instead of posting falsly again- be back with the info later...


Fish are not going to provide enough phosphates. You will have to dose phosphates. I don't know where you are getting this information.

-Ryan


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## kkentert (Jan 21, 2007)

The phosphates would come from the food you give the fish. most fish foods have plenty - but yes you would possibly need to dose it. I don't-


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

kkentert said:


> The phosphates would come from the food you give the fish. most fish foods have plenty - but yes you would possibly need to dose it. I don't-


For anyone out there that read this, please do not think that fish food is a source of phosphate. You should only be feeding your fish an amount that they can consume in a very short period of time. If you are overfeeding your fish in the expectation that you are also providing phosphate, you are asking for disaster. 

kkentert- I am not trying to be rude to you or anything, but please stop giving out false information. If you don't know what you are talking about then please don't give bad advice. There are a lot of people just starting the aquascaping hobby that read these posts in order to learn. If they think that fish food is a good source of phosphate then they will be asking a million questions about planaria, disease, snails, fish death, etc. Once again, I am not a mean person trying to make you feel bad. I just think its not proper to give false advice, thats all.

-Ryan


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## mrbelvedere (Nov 15, 2005)

Growth stimulators (auxins, gibberellins, etc.) wouldn't matter if the plants don't have what they need to grow in the first place. 

I'm sure Tom Barr will show up soon to clear up the hormone deal.


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## kkentert (Jan 21, 2007)

wood said:


> kkentert- I am not trying to be rude to you or anything, but please stop giving out false information. If you don't know what you are talking about then please don't give bad advice. There are a lot of people just starting the aquascaping hobby that read these posts in order to learn. If they think that fish food is a good source of phosphate then they will be asking a million questions about planaria, disease, snails, fish death, etc. Once again, I am not a mean person trying to make you feel bad. I just think its not proper to give false advice, thats all.


I appreciate the civil tone, and guidance (and no- I'm not being sarcastic) I was told years ago about the phosphates being present from fish food, and my plants have always done relatively well, so I never questioned it. The when I gt Yamato green, their website said the same thing that I had already heard. That said, my plants have been even better since I swicthed to YG, but maybe they're not doing as well as they COULD be with more Phosphates. i apologize for any misinformation, it was what i had come to believe from some other "misguided" people. I'm going to try dosing some and see if thing do even better. Thanks for the info. I'll deff. read up some more! (I still say the YG is great stuff!)

Question- Did fish foods contain more phosphates a couple years ago than they do now? Could my info just be old? or is it flat out wrong?


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

You can call feces gold. That doesn't make them gold. 

Federal and State laws are very specific about what can and can not be called fertilizers. Seachem follows the law and calls Flourish a supplement. Unless you have specific amounts of NPK in it then it can't be called a fertilizer. I have explained that to you several times kkentert.

Also you have never tried dosing real ferts. You speak from an EXTREMELY limited knowledge base. And those of us who have been around for a while have heard the old "secret ingredient" spiel many times. And yet those of us who don't use these "magic products" seem to grow buckets of weeds with our basic inexpensive bulk nutrients.

Yamato Green may well work on a low light tank full of slow growing plants for quite some time. But attempting to use it in a high light CO2 injected weed factory will result in failure.

It's kind of funny. What works in "fast" tanks will also work quite well in "slow" tanks. But what works in "slow" tanks doesn't do so well in "fast" tanks


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## kkentert (Jan 21, 2007)

notice I didn't call it a fert just for you rex - I said it was a supplement - that I cnsider it a fert- but you say it's legally not. I got you covered buddy. :smile:


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

kkentert said:


> . I say it IS a very comprehensive fertilizer if you consider a fertilizer a mix of supplents that makes you plants grow like crazy.


See the first line of my first reply to this thread.

Comprehensive fertilizer has a legal meaning under law. It must contain measurable amounts of NPK above the trace level.

Yamato Green has NO P, NO N, and only trace K.

If you want to call it a great trace additive or supplement I have no problems. But you constantly refer to it as a fertilizer and it's not.


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## kkentert (Jan 21, 2007)

So- they didn't do the study on guppie's waste, but it is still fish waste (processed and expelled food)- but check this outFishPoo
Just some food for though-but it says there is 2.54% Phosphorus. The fact that the guy at YG wrote that on his site also kind of makes me believe it as he has a Doctorate in Microbiology and biochemistry...(plus has worked in aquaculture for 50? years)
I'm not saying what you said is untrue- I'm just doing some more research on my own and thought I'd bring that study to you to check out.
No-I'm sure it could be argued that a few small fish is not ENOUGH for a tank full of plants-
Off to read more!
I'm glad you got the wheels turning...

As for fast and slow tanks- I have 4 WPG, and injected co2 (though I used to run Carbo-Block (HATED it) and I have VERY fast growing plants (almost too fast-it's a pain in the neck)


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

And we keep a lot of Oncorhynchus mykiss in our aquariums. A commercial fish farm for Oncorhynchus mykiss has one goal in mind. Growing salable sized Oncorhynchus mykiss as quickly and cheaply as possible.

That study has basically no bearing on what is being discussed.

Many foods made for tropical fish are low in phosphates to prevent algae blooms when people over feed the fish.


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## kkentert (Jan 21, 2007)

Rex- Here analysis of OSI Freshwater Flakes - Again-I'm not arguing with you- I'm asking what you think-
Crude Protein (min) 35%. Crude Fat (min) 3%. Crude Fiber (max) 3%. Moisture
(max) 9%. Vitamin A (min) 8,000 IUlb Vitamin D3 (min) 800 IUlb Vitamin E
(min) 100 IUlb Choline (min) 500 mglb Ascorbic acid (min) 200 mglb Inositol
(min) 100 mglb Niacin (min) 100 mglb Pantohenic acid (min) 80 mglb
*Phosphorous (max) 0.6%*


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Note the (max). Also note that the fish will remove some of that.

Not to mention that fish food is more expensive that bulk dry nutrients. And trying to add enough P with fish food is going to lead to ammonia and/or more snails.

Fish food is for fish. Fertilizers are for plants.


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## kkentert (Jan 21, 2007)

OK- going to run a 6 week experiment-
I'm going to KEEP dosing Yamato green (since I have plenty here still) and i'm going to start ALSO dosing Phosphorus, and see what happens. I'll let everyone know the results. If the results are BETTER than what I'm getting now, I will admit defeat and switch to dry ferts (Yes-the marine will have one) - but like I said- this stuff is awesome - but better is always welcome! (like I said before, i'm not so much concerned about being cheap- just getting results) Rex- wanna tell me how much?


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

How much what?

And you can't just start dosing phosphates without having sufficient nitrates.


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## kkentert (Jan 21, 2007)

Nevermind- I'll look it up. I have sufficient nitrates.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

You want to be careful. You might have enough nitrates right now. But if the plants are short on phosphates and you introduce phosphates into the tank the nitrate levels can zero out in a couple of days. This has happened to many people in the past.


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## kkentert (Jan 21, 2007)

jebarj90
How's the Yamato doing for your tank?
Curious.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Fish waste alone is not "enough" to supply most fully planted tanks for PO4 under optimal growth rates.

Will plants grow?
Sure.

Plants can adapt to whatever they must and PO4 is often limiting so they slow their growth rates way down if PO4 is limiting. When that occurs, the plant uses less CO2, less NO3 and less K+ etc.

Plants downregulate the other nutrients to match the most limiting nutrient.

Now some used this idea about 12-15 years ago with the idea they could limit algae with PO4. That did not work, however, many folks did note their NO3 and CO2 levels went up when the PO4 was driven down.

When we added PO4, the uptake of NO3 increased rapidly, as did the CO2 demand.

Some folks had little issue with 10-15ppm with low light, PO4 limitations, however, many folks did have issues, they blamed PO4 rather than the NO3/CO2 being too low though.

Fish loads vary a great deal in planted tanks, I've some rather packed tanks(3-6inches per gal), and I have fish less tanks. I have predator tanks also and Discus tanks with an adult per 7-10 gal. 

No issues with excess N or P, I might cut the KNO3 dosing by 1/2 at most, but the PO4 being higher does not matter and adds a buffer.

I'm much more concerned about removal of NH4 waste, not PO4.

NH4 is extremely toxic, NO3 and PO4 are not relatively(200-15000X less than NH4 for NO3 depending on fish species, PO4 is non toxic over enormous ranges to us and fish).

So I'd rather modify a method to suit moderate build up potential for NO3 and PO4, while minimizing NH4.

This is better for fish, for algae control and is simpler.

KH2PO4 = 22$ for 50lbs, same with KNO3 and the cost of a trace mix varies from about few $ per pound to 70-80$ per 5 liters for commercial mixes.

Note: 50lbs of KNO3/KH2PO4 will last longer than you will.
Your grand kids will be using it.

Now suppose you want to slow down growth?
Chose PO4 limitation?

No, that would be a relatively poor choice.
Light? Yes, this cost less electric, the largest single expense to run a planted tank in most cases. 

Less light= less algae, less work, more wiggle room for whatever method you chose.

CO2? Not adding CO2 makes life much simpler, and the tank is much easier to deal with a handle. No water changes there either.

So lazy, less cost, less work, less trimming, less issues withb algae vs PO4 limitation, that is a far better selection for horticulture than the older alternatives folks suggested 10 or more years ago.

Some have renewed this "concept" of PO4 limitation and nnot even bothered to realize it and claiming less CO2 is needed.

Sure, if you are PO4 limited, of course you need less CO2 than if you had a non nutrient limited tanks, that's stuff we knew about over 10 years ago.

Be careful assuming correlation = causation.
You'll think it's one thing, but plants regulate based on what is made available to them.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I barely dose PO4.. My tank naturely through all the fish & plant processes provide 2ppm of PO4. I'm sure the substrate has something to do with it too.
I bring it up to 3-4ppm with KH2PO4 but honestly I don't think I need to do that. Nitrate uptake is fine.

But you do need to change the water every week for the health of the fish.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

mistergreen said:


> I barely dose PO4.. My tank naturely through all the fish & plant processes provide 2ppm of PO4. I'm sure the substrate has something to do with it too.
> I bring it up to 3-4ppm with KH2PO4 but honestly I don't think I need to do that. Nitrate uptake is fine.
> 
> But you do need to change the water every week for the health of the fish.


Lighting levels?
CO2?
Substrate type?
Tap water?

All play a large role.

I think the approach I took rather than adding "just enough", adding non limiting PO4 for all tank set ups, works much better. 
Folks can slowly dial things down if they really think it helps.

There is no ill effects in non CO2 nor CO2 enriched tanks, high/low light etc due to high PO4, much like K+. The range for NO3 for that matter is huge as well, at least 50-75ppm. Same deal with dosing traces/GH etc.

You can use less by simply slowly reducing the volume you have been dosing till you see a negative effect. You need a stable starting point though.

The non limiting conditions provide that and also show if you have decent CO2 etc in many cases or not.

This way without ever touching a test kit, you can dial in a dosing routine based on the plant's health for any type of aquarium. Do one at a time and write down how much you added. Then do the next and so on.
You have 3-4 things at most to dose. So that can be done pretty quick, given 3-4 weeks for each fert.

That's simple, effective and relevant.
You can also use an O2 meter to measure plant growth to compare fertilization.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

true, true.
But I keep fish with the plants too and I see behavioral changes with 70ppm+ of NO3. So they(the fishes) also tell me the limit... Maybe someday when I do a mostly planted tank, I can go crazy. Or I can do the opposite and do a natural plant tank ala Walstad.


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## jebarj90 (Mar 11, 2007)

Hey Kent, 
I actually havent been using the yamato green. I dont see anything special abou it. I think the dry ferts and EI dosing is really the best way to go.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

mistergreen said:


> true, true.
> But I keep fish with the plants too and I see behavioral changes with 70ppm+ of NO3. So they(the fishes) also tell me the limit... Maybe someday when I do a mostly planted tank, I can go crazy. Or I can do the opposite and do a natural plant tank ala Walstad.


Really?

Think about why your tank has 70ppm + NO3 and how it must form if you have a high fish stocking level, fish do not excrete NO3, they excrete NH4............

So is it the NO3, or is it the NH4 that's the issue?

I have very high stocking levels with lots of plants.
I have no issues and the fish health and behavior are awesome and have been fine for many years. Also, what type of test method do you use for measuring NO3?

Are you adding KNO3 to discern whether it's due solely to NO3?
If your comments matched the observations I've done, I've done this same type of test many times over many years, I'd agree with you.
But they do not. Discerning behavioral changes is difficult, but we will ignore that issue and assume that we can tell to be on the safe side. 

How is it that your tank is having 70ppm + NO3's BTW? Assuming that the test method is giving you the correct readings at such a high range.

Something does not add up. some make dosing mistakes, but it's *rare *anyone would purposely dose 70+ ppm of NO3.

I've never been able to, nor have 1000's of aquarists, been able to keep NO3's without dosing KNO3 even with heavily stocked tanks with CO2/mod to higher light.

A 120 gallon discus tank with 14 full sized adults, fed 2x a day, worms, 2w/gal, CO2, 85% planted, never managed to build up and required about 1/2 teaspoon KNO3 3x a week to maintain decent 20 ppm range NO3's

I'm not suggesting anyone needs 75ppm of NO3(20-30ppm is fine and a decent non limiting range), but how you determine the NO3 and the source make enormous differences. As does how you define behavioral issues and whether they are really due to the high NO3 or rather something else.

I do not see anything that suggest those issues where addressed.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Oh, it's not 70ppm.. it's around 15-25 ppm of NO3. It had been up there in the past though, that's how I know it affects the fishes.

Naturally, the tank is around 8ppm of NO3 through the tank's processes. NH4 is converted to NO3 really fast because the substrate is really mature, really mature and lots of plants like NH4.

I add 1/8 of a teaspoon of KNO3. Any more would bump it up too high for my 29G tank. PO4 is always present (1-2 ppm). The only thing I dose regularly is KH2SO4. My tank is by no means perfect that's why it's good to read and experience.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

So how did it get to 70ppm+ and how did you test for it?
What behavioral changes and species where involved?
Also, what confirmation do you use for PO4?
How on earth can it be that high without a tap water source?

Even if it is that high from the tap, adding another 2ppm via KH2OPO4, will not harm anything nor tilt the tank towards poorer growth of health.

You do not have to add it if it's high from the tap, but something does not add up if you claim you have 1-2ppm of PO4 inorganic from fish waste in the tank you speak of..............

And that's the topic.....

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I use a calibrated API test kit.. I did tests against known numbers from our local waterwork's annual report { from the tap : NO3 is around 1.3ppm, PO4 is around 0.14 ppm }

What I'm saying is in a mature tank, NO3 & PO4 will naturally exist if you feed the fish but not to the amount where you recomment for optimal plant growth. Are you saying it's impossible for PO4 to exist without adding PO4 ferts?

Mine really does hover around 2ppm PO4 without dosing PO4.


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

Nitrates and phosphates coming from fish and fish food has been the standard practice of the Europeans, Dutch, and Asians for quite some time now. It works great for them, and they always beat the Americans in the big contests.

Take a look at the majority of the published ADA specs and tanks, and they don't dose nitrates and phosphates. ADA _does_ make their own nitrate + phosphate product, and they themselves don't use it on the majority of their high light, CO2 injected tanks.

It's the Americans who got behind the whole EI thing with "nitrates and phosphates don't cause algae, buy farm products and dump loads of them in." And it's always people following these techniques that have loads of problems.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Hypancistrus said:


> Nitrates and phosphates coming from fish and fish food has been the standard practice of the Europeans, Dutch, and Asians for quite some time now. It works great for them, and they always beat the Americans in the big contests.
> 
> Take a look at the majority of the published ADA specs and tanks, and they don't dose nitrates and phosphates. ADA _does_ make their own nitrate + phosphate product, and they themselves don't use it on the majority of their high light, CO2 injected tanks.
> 
> It's the Americans who got behind the whole EI thing with "nitrates and phosphates don't cause algae, buy farm products and dump loads of them in." And it's always people following these techniques that have loads of problems.


Nitrates and phosphates coming from fish and fish food is fine in a low light setting, that is stupid in a highlight tank. you would completely pollute the water trying to keep enough NPK added.
Seriously, wouldn't you agree? 

What exactly are you trying to say? because it all sounds a little naive to me,
algae is algae, plants are plants, water is water and NPK is NPK.

I use this so called EI and "dump" loads of farm bought ferts into my tanks, and funny thing is, I don't have loads of problems except for what I cause by mis-use of either light or C02.
It is all in what you know and how you use it.

My tanks all look very good and grow just the same, I care nothing for a contest because I have other cares in life.
I do however enjoy growing plants and how the tanks look in my house, I am sure if I wanted to enter a contest, I would not have a problem scoring.
That is not my cup of tea.
Your post sounds angry and grudgingly apposed of "farm ferts".

Help me understand? are you saying we should not use them and that they are bad for our tanks?

KISS
:biggrin:


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Hypancistrus would rather buy high grade chemicals and dump those into his tank. He apparently has the money to spend 10-20X as much to get an extra 9.


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## mrbelvedere (Nov 15, 2005)

Hypancistrus said:


> they always beat the Americans in the big contests.
> 
> It's the Americans who got behind the whole EI thing with "nitrates and phosphates don't cause algae, buy farm products and dump loads of them in." And it's always people following these techniques that have loads of problems.



ADA tanks have to add less P and N, mostly due to their substrate system that leaches nutrients for many months.

The Dutch have a greater presence, as their hobby is more widespread than in America. 

Who has problems when they follow the established directions? 

Most of my favorite tanks are from American hobbyists. Steven Chong and Roy Deki to name a few. Aaron and Craig for their "Tonina" tanks that the true aquascapers don't seem to like.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Hypancistrus said:


> Nitrates and phosphates coming from fish and fish food has been the standard practice of the Europeans, Dutch, and Asians for quite some time now. It works great for them, and they always beat the Americans in the big contests.


Methods do not define art.
Art does not define methods.
Many have high NO3 and PO4 in their tap water, Dutch and Germans and the English for example. I know folks there, it's an issue and has been.



> Take a look at the majority of the published ADA specs and tanks, and they don't dose nitrates and phosphates. ADA _does_ make their own nitrate + phosphate product, and they themselves don't use it on the majority of their high light, CO2 injected tanks.


They have plenty of NO3 and PO4 in these tanks, it's called sediment roud: . You can add it to the water column or the sediment or both places.

The issue is when folks make stupid claims they have not even bothered to analyze suggesting that it's bad for fish and causes algae to have water column ferts for NO3 and PO4.

That is clearly poppy cock.
That also has no bearing on many tanks, say this example of James who in 8 months in the hobby managed to win the overall AGA contest:

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2003.cgi?&op=showcase&category=0&vol=2&id=71
Ricky's:
http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2003.cgi?&op=showcase&category=0&vol=2&id=43

and Erik's:

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2001.cgi?&op=showcase&category=0&vol=2&id=18

Now, mister expert, what do you have?



> It's the Americans who got behind the whole EI thing with "nitrates and phosphates don't cause algae, buy farm products and dump loads of them in." And it's always people following these techniques that have loads of problems.


Actually it's the reverse, we have seen a massive change since EI came about, in the level and abilities to grow a wide range of plants much easier.

I see plenty of folks that have issues using ADA stuff, as well as any and every method.

You see what you want to see and need to frequent more boards outside the USA then if you honestly think this way.

However, it's obvious you have an agenda here that has little to do with Yamato green.

A product I have used in the past and supported.........

Understanding things means you need to use them, understand why they work, not that they do just for you.

If you have problems with a method, it is your fault, not the methods.
Most any method can be forced and tweaked.

That is all I did with PMDD, EI is not really my method, nor is Yamato green this guys.

They each have the same items, with more coming from various sources than the other(fish vs inorganic). Growth rates make a huge difference as do the plants, they are flexible.

If I had not bothered to test and induce algae in the past, I suspect many folks would still be chasing algae correlations and ghost. Those are not my methods either, they are standard methods in research.

All I did was justify things more, argue for, and add a few things to tweak a method better, same for ADA, non CO2 methods, Marine methods etc.
I'm hardly one dimensional with respect to methods or design.
I use them all to achieve the goals I have.

Some trade offs are not worth while for some goals, some are.
You need to show the lab grade stuff is really a significant difference.
You have never done that and I have plenty of lab grade stuff myself, here at my lab  

As well as about 12 years using ag grade stuff also.
What do you think they use in larger scale Fert studies? :icon_conf 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> However, it's obvious you have an agenda here that has little to do with Yamato green.


I'm not an expert. I'm a hobbyist who only buys things. I happen to have my own opinions. I have no affiliations with any businesses, partners, or any websites. I'm don't sell anything or make any money whatsoever from the aquarium hobby. I also don't care if others disagree with my opinions. To accuse me of having an "agenda" is both preposterous and insulting.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Hypancistrus said:


> I'm not an expert. I'm a hobbyist who only buys things. I happen to have my own opinions. I have no affiliations with any businesses, partners, or any websites. I'm don't sell anything or make any money whatsoever from the aquarium hobby. I also don't care if others disagree with my opinions. To accuse me of having an "agenda" is both preposterous and insulting.


The issues about "agenda" are to have us believe the baloney rational used to justify ideas/contentions about ag vs lab grade fertilizers, then try and give baloney about Art and scaping being some how correlated to a method of dosing fertilizers, then using the ADA example where they obviously have a source, albeit not the water column as much, for PO4/NO3, that is not about Yamato green nor why it works in some vs other tanks. 

You want me to believe that baloney?
I can easily say that is insulting and a joke to me. I can take all sorts of stuff personal and insulting, I do not. Should I be a bad sport about it and take it all personal after getting pummeled? No, I'll expose the baloney for what it is.

Now:
You do not have to have a web site, nor sell a product, nor sell anything on line/in the hobby etc to promote an "agenda". Where'd that come from? The same pot the other arguments you used?

If you add 3, now 4 arguments to support your contention that have nothing to do with the topic, then it really looks like "agenda", rather than debate.

Am I wrong about you there? Then why did you add those for support? Others made similar comments so it's not just me. Are you suggesting that we are all that stupid and dumb to fall for that argument?

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## kkentert (Jan 21, 2007)

Tom-
Did you ever address the issue of auxins? I'd like to get your scope on it.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Auxin is extremely well studied in the research on plant development both biochemically and molecularly.

When you say did I address it, do mean with respect to Yamato Green?
Otherwise that is a different thread.

You can buy Super Thrive for 1.99 for 2-4 oz and add that to the water and make any auxin or hormone claim you wish.
No different than any company's claims, there's scant research on exogenous dosing of Hormones of any sort on Aquatic plant, Dr Kane at UF where I did my grad work is the only researcher I know that's done anything there, it mainly helped some Crypts flower and was a one time event, otherwise, they tend not to do anything in submersed culture.

What they do endogenously is quite another matter, but we really do not seem to be able to amplify growth with their usage. Folks want to increase growth, they should focus on the basics: light/CO2/nutrients.
Let the plants make their own from the basic building blocks.

Hormones are typically used in agriculture for increased fruit and nut sizes, flowering etc.

Not vegetative growth which is what concerns us.
Some do not enjoy break neck or increased growth, but still want to add things like hormones to increase growth, that's counterinitutive and the logic does not follow. 

You could add super thrive at low concentrations to YG and make those claims also.

Will it help?
Not that I can see, and there's nothing to support it observationally nor in the research, but there is for fruit and other process, or endogenous controls.

But these are hard to apply to aquatic plant horticulture that addresses vegetative growth.

Some suggested that ADA's products help plants root better after trimming, I really do not want roots I responded. Further, a number of garden centers has several brands of rooting hormone we can buy for 2-5$ for a life time's supply.

YG could be reformulated and have hormones, more PO4, more Mg etc added, then it'd likely do better for many tanks.

But it's not my company either.
Still, it's good, but we get back to a brand loyalist vs a DIY that uses KNO3, KH2PO4 and can tailor their dosing to suit and have a life time's supply for less than 50$.

You think it's worth it to use the pricey stuff, that's fine.
But do not attempt to suggest that it's really better without testing it and being careful in that process.

Be fair.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## kkentert (Jan 21, 2007)

Good info-
Thanks.
My plants do have a LOT of roots- I guess that's due to the auxins in it.
I'm going to try dry ferts out starting in June i think and see how they compare (with NO hormones)
Thanks again.


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## DBryan21 (Jan 24, 2019)

I have used the product with great results. However, there must be a problem now. I ordered December 26 and have yet to receive my products. I email from the website and it returns undeliverable. I email from my invoice/receipt - still silence - no response. I've tried calling and leaving a message - no return call. I feeling a bit taken here at this point and so disappointed because this product is effective.


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