# 190 Gallon Custom Build



## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

I've had a 29 gallon tank now for almost 25 years and have let it go. I've decided to get serious again and do it right. I looked for a pre-built tank that would satisfy me but couldn't find one. I ended up deciding on a custom tank.

*Tank Summary:*
*Tank:* 60"x30"x24"
*Tank Volume:* 190 Gallon
*Total Water Volume:* 260 Gallon
*Lighting:* 3x FishNeedIt T5-ho 4ft / 2LAMP Aquarium lighting w/ 6500k bulbs
*CO2:* 20lb Bottle, Wiki dual stage, all stainless regulator (picked up from Tom Barr), Cerges' Reactor
*Filtration:* 75 gallon sump with 5 different types of media, 2x Eheim 1262 pumps
*Substrate:* Eco Complete
*Heating:* 2x ViaAqua Titanium Aquarium Heater, 300-Watt (will add a third if needed)
*Dosing:* PPS-Pro plus DIY Dynamite Select root tabs
*Automation:* Apex Jr w/ temp probe, PM1 w/pH probe, 2x Tom's aqualifter dosing pumps

First decision was glass vs acrylic. I've only owned glass but worked at a LFS in high school and college and we used only acrylic so I'm very familiar with them. In the end I decided on acrylic because of its clarity and also for the weight (my wife and I can move a 190 gallon acrylic but not a glass).

I contacted 3 local builders and all three said I have to purchase through a LFS. I contacted 5 LFSs with requests and only 2 got back to me. One said they didn't get a response back from the builder and the other didn't contact the builder I wanted to go with but instead went with some crazy company in Florida who wanted $11k + shipping to build my tank. I was about to try different LFSs but found another option.

I contacted Jason Gregory at Clear Fabrications Inc. He was highly recommended at reeffrontiers. His price was extremely reasonable and well within my budget. The only problem was that he's in Washington and I'm in Texas. I bit the bullet and set up a deal with him even though the shipping costs put the total cost of the build higher than I had wanted. Based on all the feedback I read I knew that the tank would be nice. So far I've been very impressed with his knowledge. He helped me with the final design of the tank, kept me informed with pictures along the way, and always was responsive to my (often stupid) questions.

He created a build thread at RF. The tank is 60x30x24, has a continuous overflow box along the back, has 3x 1.5" overflows, 2x 3/4" returns, and 2x 1.5" holes to run wires/etc. Here is a pic of the finished tank:



















It shipped today and should arrive around Tuesday of next week. I am dying of anticipation.

I built a custom stand for the tank. The room it's going in has a sloping floor (1" difference over the 5' that the tank is going on) since it's an enclosed patio. The stand came out very nice and perfectly level. I wasn't able to get a picture that shows off the stand properly. It's stained very evenly but for some reason the pictures make it seem uneven.










I'm using a 75 gallon glass aquarium for a sump. It has 5 media compartments plus a wet/dry area for bio balls. I cycled it using a fishless cycle so once the tank is in I can add fish immediately. I went with a sump because I want as little equipment as possible in the tank and I love having virtually unlimited filtration media as I like fish-heavy tanks.










I'll upload better pics once I have it in place.

I also bought a 10 gallon quarantine tank that I went ahead and set up to help add bacteria to some of my substrate (Eco Complete). I found a great deal on some plants and couldn't wait so I threw them in the 10 until the big tank is ready next week.










I'm planning on using the PPS-Pro dosing method with pressurized CO2. I'm using Excel until I get my CO2 rig finalized. 


















The CO2 will be injected using a DIY reactor:










10 gallons of PVC parts for the set up:









I'll also be using a custom 3D, internal background from atg-scape which is the main reason for the continuous overflow.

Hopefully this time next week it will be up and running. It's been about 2.5 months in planning and building. It's these last few days that are the hardest!


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## kevins007 (Dec 20, 2012)

That tank looks very nice. Please post some pics of it after you get it.


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

wow flourish excel got a new face now? Never seen that one.


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## tropicalryan (Jun 11, 2011)

Off to a great start


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

*It's Alive!*

Apparently the shipping company never called me to tell me that the tank was in so it sat at the docks for 2 weeks. Oh well, better late than never. I finally got it home and got to work.

Most of the PVC parts layed out:









Tank and sump set in place:









Bean animal overflow set up:









Plumbed and leak tested:









There were 2 connections that I didn't tighten properly but all the glue held up just fine.

Lots of water movement:









Media in place:









Return plumbing with easy access drain line:









A view from the top:









Background and driftwood in place:









CO2 reactor running nicely:









Dosing pumps (two times a day):









Apex (tried to make all the cords neat but there was just too much coming in):









Apex display mounted on the tank:









My first attempt at planting:









The tank still needs a lot of work but it's finally up. I'm fishless cycling and have a very strong batch of nitrosomonas bacteria but my nitrobacter bacteria are still growing.

Will post more updates as I have them.


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## jmf3460 (Aug 21, 2013)

yahoo what a beautiful tank!! great journal!


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## andyl9063 (Oct 22, 2010)

great tank.
What made you go with ecocomplete instead of aquasoil? You were going all out why not splurge on aquasoil as well?


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## NYCaqua (Dec 26, 2013)

Have you considered turning the driftwood located on the left side of the tank 90 degrees counterclockwise. But the construction of the tank is very well done.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

andyl9063 said:


> great tank.
> What made you go with ecocomplete instead of aquasoil? You were going all out why not splurge on aquasoil as well?


I've been out of the plant game for about 15 years and so much has changed. When I first started doing research 4 months ago I didn't come across aquasoil at all (not sure how I missed it). Most posts still recommended Flourite (which I used a long time ago and loved) and Eco-Complete (newer and cheaper alternative to Flourite) stood out as the best choices. I actually purchased it about 4 months ago last week figured it would work well enough. Even though I went all out on a lot, cost was still very important. 240 lbs of Eco Complete was expensive enough and since I would have had to eat most of the cost I decided to stay with it.



NYCaqua said:


> Have you considered turning the driftwood located on the left side of the tank 90 degrees counterclockwise. But the construction of the tank is very well done.


When I bought it I did try multiple angles and this one was my favorite. Each piece is actually 2 smaller pieces screwed together. I decided on orientation before putting them together so when I do some major changes to the scape I may try that out.


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## andyl9063 (Oct 22, 2010)

rdmustang1 said:


> I've been out of the plant game for about 15 years and so much has changed. When I first started doing research 4 months ago I didn't come across aquasoil at all (not sure how I missed it). Most posts still recommended Flourite (which I used a long time ago and loved) and Eco-Complete (newer and cheaper alternative to Flourite) stood out as the best choices. I actually purchased it about 4 months ago last week figured it would work well enough. Even though I went all out on a lot, cost was still very important. 240 lbs of Eco Complete was expensive enough and since I would have had to eat most of the cost I decided to stay with it.


not sure how much cost, but I filled up my 220G with 6 bags of aquasoil, total $200. I still had 6 bags left over that I sold.


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## scapegoat (Jun 3, 2010)

man I love that sump.

tank looks great too. that built in overflow is awesome


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## izabella87 (Apr 21, 2012)

gorgeous, i like it a lot


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## Deano85 (Nov 14, 2011)

Looks good, but all that money and no leds.


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## Sgtreef (Jun 6, 2004)

Nice set up you have going there.

Three questions the Reactor and dosing pumps can you say more about them, plus what about the 3D background, who makes it?

Still that is going to be a real looker.

Jeff


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## II Knucklez II (Oct 31, 2011)

Awesome set up! What type of fauna you going to put in there? Hope a dozen or more discus Lol.

Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk


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## Aqualady (Jan 14, 2013)

Wow, really nice looking tank here!


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

Deano85 said:


> Looks good, but all that money and no leds.


Everything I read said that T5s are as good or better and in general I'm not a fan of LED lighting .




Sgtreef said:


> Nice set up you have going there.
> 
> Three questions the Reactor and dosing pumps can you say more about them, plus what about the 3D background, who makes it?
> 
> ...



The reactor is a Cerges reactor: Link. Water and CO2 go in the top and swirl around and around until they get to the bottom. The CO2 dissolves or else floats back to the top to get pushed down by water again. Once the CO2 dissolves in the water it can flow down to the bottom and goes up the PVC and into the aquarium.

The dosing pumps are Tom's Aqua Lifters ($17 from Amazon). There are mixed reviews but the reviews that sound like they were written by people who actually gave the pump a fair shot all had good things to say about them. They turn on for 6 seconds (thanks to the Apex) at 9:30 and 13:30 which equals a total of 26ml of PPS-PRO micro and macro fertilizers.

The background was purchased from atg-scape.com. It takes about 4 weeks to get it in but I'm happy I waited and got one.



II Knucklez II said:


> Awesome set up! What type of fauna you going to put in there? Hope a dozen or more discus Lol.


My water is too harsh for Discus and I'm too lazy to use RO water. It's going to be a community tank. Lots of loaches, corries, tetras, etc. I love schooling fish. I have a 29 gallon now which I'll be shutting down once I can move all the fish over. I currently have black skirts, buenos aires tetras, giant danios, clown loaches, ottos, and mollies. I'm very anxious to move them over.


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## Finalplay10 (Jun 29, 2010)

I haven't read the whole thread but I just wanted to say grats on a beautiful custom build. That tanks looks amazing!


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## andyl9063 (Oct 22, 2010)

rdmustang1 said:


> Everything I read said that T5s are as good or better and in general I'm not a fan of LED lighting .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


T5 are still good if not better. How you liking that reactor? I just assemble mine today. Can't wait to test it tomorrow. Mine was 20 in long. Yours is 10 right? How are you running the reactor ? With your return pump?

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

That's a very nice setup. I'm really liking the tank and the coast to coast overflow. My next tank will definitely have one of those. One thing about the cerges reactor that I thought I would mention. You said the water flows down and then flows up the pvc tube back into your aquarium. You actually should hook up the whole house filter opposite of what the filter says. As in you want your inflow in the output of the filter and in the outflow where the input is. The water should flow down the pvc tube that you put in the filter housing. That way the water comes out clear at the bottom of the reactor and has to flow back up to go out.


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## rwong2k (Dec 24, 2004)

wow can't wait till the plants fill in, 
great stuff!


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## teddo10 (Nov 9, 2004)

Very nice tank with well thought out setup! Congratulations!


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## trailsnale (Dec 2, 2009)

very nice build, looking forward to more!

+1 on ua hua's good call.

thanks,


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

andyl9063 said:


> T5 are still good if not better. How you liking that reactor? I just assemble mine today. Can't wait to test it tomorrow. Mine was 20 in long. Yours is 10 right? How are you running the reactor ? With your return pump?


Mine is 22" tall (takes 20" filters) with 1" inlet and outlet as I didn't want to restrict the water flow. I put a 1.5" Sch 40 pipe on which was a pain in the rear. The sump is 18" tall for reference. It's working great. I really like having a clear one as I can watch the bubbles dissolve. Of course the 1" inlet/outlet and clear added a good bit to the cost ($70) but I think it was worth it because I can just sit and watch it. 

It's hooked up to one return pump. I thought about splitting both pumps together but was afraid that the mixing flows would reduce the overall throughput. I have drop checkers on both sides of the tank so I've verified that the CO2 is doing a good job mixing in the tank even though it's only coming out of one of the returns.




ua hua said:


> That's a very nice setup. I'm really liking the tank and the coast to coast overflow. My next tank will definitely have one of those. One thing about the cerges reactor that I thought I would mention. You said the water flows down and then flows up the pvc tube back into your aquarium. You actually should hook up the whole house filter opposite of what the filter says. As in you want your inflow in the output of the filter and in the outflow where the input is. The water should flow down the pvc tube that you put in the filter housing. That way the water comes out clear at the bottom of the reactor and has to flow back up to go out.


If the water flows down the PVC then it would easily flow out of the reactor and directly into the tank before being completely dissolved since it would flow up the input and into the tank. This way it has to dissolve because the bubbles keep floating up and water keeps trying to push them down. Once the bubbles are dissolved in water the CO2 enriched water flows down and it allowed up the PVC pipe. I think a lot of people who have Cerges reactors don't do them right. The simple fact of flowing CO2 to the bottom of the reactor doesn't give ample time for it to dissolve (at least on larger injections like mine). A diffusor (what you're describing) puts CO2 in water and hopes that it dissolves enough. A rector ensures the CO2 is completely dissolved before allowing it back into the tank.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

rdmustang1 said:


> If the water flows down the PVC then it would easily flow out of the reactor and directly into the tank before being completely dissolved since it would flow up the input and into the tank. This way it has to dissolve because the bubbles keep floating up and water keeps trying to push them down. Once the bubbles are dissolved in water the CO2 enriched water flows down and it allowed up the PVC pipe. I think a lot of people who have Cerges reactors don't do them right. The simple fact of flowing CO2 to the bottom of the reactor doesn't give ample time for it to dissolve (at least on larger injections like mine). A diffusor (what you're describing) puts CO2 in water and hopes that it dissolves enough. A rector ensures the CO2 is completely dissolved before allowing it back into the tank.


I'm perfectly aware of how a reactor works. The bubbles will try to float up no matter where you put them in at. That's why if your input is going in through the PVC there is less room for them to float around beings there confined to the space within the PVC tube they will try to rise up against the flow of water coming in through the PVC. I have been running mine this way for some time and it works great. If you wish to run it the way you have it hooked up then you can I'm just telling you that's not the best way to run it. Where is your co2 being injected into the reactor? A t fitting on the input of the reactor? Or into the reactor itself?


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

ua hua said:


> I'm perfectly aware of how a reactor works. The bubbles will try to float up no matter where you put them in at. That's why if your input is going in through the PVC there is less room for them to float around beings there confined to the space within the PVC tube they will try to rise up against the flow of water coming in through the PVC. I have been running mine this way for some time and it works great. If you wish to run it the way you have it hooked up then you can I'm just telling you that's not the best way to run it. Where is your co2 being injected into the reactor? A t fitting on the input of the reactor? Or into the reactor itself?


Sorry, I really wasn't trying to imply anything. I'm still figuring all this out and appreciate the help.

It's injected into a fitting before the input. If I was to reverse the input/output I'm pretty sure the amount of CO2 I'm injecting and the high rate of directed flow would force the CO2 bubbles down the relatively small diameter PVC. Once out of the PVC they would be free to enter the tank. The way I have it the diameter of the housing is MUCH larger than the diameter of the PVC (and thus area is much larger) and makes it much harder for the bubbles to reach the bottom and be allowed up the PVC without dissolving in the water. My way there is more area for the bubble to float back up (a good thing) before getting into the tank. On lower flows or lower injection rates I'm guessing either way would work. Maybe I'm missing something but the math says more area means better absorption. Of course I haven't tried it your way so this is all conjecture on my part but to me my way makes much more sense and is working great.


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## andyl9063 (Oct 22, 2010)

rdmustang1 said:


> It's injected into a fitting before the input. If I was to reverse the input/output I'm pretty sure the amount of CO2 I'm injecting and the high rate of directed flow would force the CO2 bubbles down the relatively small diameter PVC. Once out of the PVC they would be free to enter the tank. The way I have it the diameter of the housing is MUCH larger than the diameter of the PVC (and thus area is much larger) and makes it much harder for the bubbles to reach the bottom and be allowed up the PVC without dissolving in the water. My way there is more area for the bubble to float back up (a good thing) before getting into the tank. On lower flows or lower injection rates I'm guessing either way would work. Maybe I'm missing something but the math says more area means better absorption and therefore a better method. Of course I haven't tried it your way so this is all conjecture on my part but to me my way makes much more sense and is working great.


i believe others have constructed the cerges reactor with how ua hua is mentioning. When you have co2 going into the outlet of cerges, water pushes it down the pvc pipe and at the same time, the co2 tries to rises but can't because of the pressure of the water being push down. This dissolves more co2. By the time it rises to the cerges outlet, most of it is dissolve already due to the water pressure.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=110100

Here is original article: http://translate.google.com/transla...yjj_reaktor_so2.html&sl=ru&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

and picture of flow.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

rdmustang1 said:


> It's injected into a fitting before the input. If I was to reverse the input/output I'm pretty sure the amount of CO2 I'm injecting and the high rate of directed flow would force the CO2 bubbles down the relatively small diameter PVC. Once out of the PVC they would be free to enter the tank. The way I have it the diameter of the housing is MUCH larger than the diameter of the PVC (and thus area is much larger) and makes it much harder for the bubbles to reach the bottom and be allowed up the PVC without dissolving in the water. My way there is more area for the bubble to float back up (a good thing) before getting into the tank. On lower flows or lower injection rates I'm guessing either way would work. Maybe I'm missing something but the math says more area means better absorption and therefore a better method. Of course I haven't tried it your way so this is all conjecture on my part but to me my way makes much more sense and is working great.





andyl9063 said:


> i believe others have constructed the cerges reactor with how ua hua is mentioning. When you have co2 going into the outlet of cerges, water pushes it down the pvc pipe and at the same time, the co2 tries to rises but can't because of the pressure of the water being push down. This dissolves more co2. By the time it rises to the cerges outlet, most of it is dissolve already due to the water pressure.


This is the way I have seen it ran by many others including myself. That's not to say your way won't work but I would think you would get better dissolution running the input down the PVC but try to run it how you have it hooked up and see but to me that's kind of the same way an Aquamedic reactor works and I never got 100% dissolution running that reactor. By the way I don't care for the term reactor because the only reaction going on is the contact time with the water which can happen if you run a diffuser in your tank. I guess your whole tank would be the reactor then. I run a needle wheel pump through my (bubble collector) as I refer to it and have a sponge on the bottom of the PVC to slow down the bubbles trying to escape the PVC tube. The thing with this hobby is there is more than one way to skin a cat so if running it this way works for you then that's great. Also don't rely on drop checkers to tell you if your co2 is at desired levels because they are not an accurate way to judge that more of a ballpark. Keep us posted if this continues to work for you. And for that diagram you posted Andy the way they have the flow is the way he had his hooked up but the difference being the co2 is injected into the bottom of the reactor and has to flow around within the media in the reactor housing which is how the Aquamedic reactor is but with this design it's easy for false gas to build up inside the reactor.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

Small update...

I got a pH probe for the Apex. I know the pH/kH calculation for CO2 is not super accurate due to alternate factors that affect pH but it's something to work with.

My dkH is measuring at 22. My pH runs at 8.2 and the new pH probe is measuring a pH drop to 7.1. If this is accurate (a big if) then that means I'm injecting slightly too much CO2. I'm going to try and reduce it slightly and check pH over the day as well as my drop checkers. If they stay green then I'll leave it reduced.

Any thoughts on this? My big fear for the tank is finding the right combination of CO2, ferts, and lighting. I think my lighting is a big low so I've ordered another fixture. If I end up not using it then that's fine.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

andyl9063 said:


> i believe others have constructed the cerges reactor with how ua hua is mentioning. When you have co2 going into the outlet of cerges, water pushes it down the pvc pipe and at the same time, the co2 tries to rises but can't because of the pressure of the water being push down. This dissolves more co2. By the time it rises to the cerges outlet, most of it is dissolve already due to the water pressure.
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=110100
> 
> ...


Your diagram is how I'm doing it. Your explanation (and how ua hua is doing it) does not follow that picture. The only difference in mine is that I'm injecting pre-input which I copied from others who said they did it and it works fine (as well as being much easier to plumb).


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## andyl9063 (Oct 22, 2010)

rdmustang1 said:


> Small update...
> 
> I got a pH probe for the Apex. I know the pH/kH calculation for CO2 is not super accurate due to alternate factors that affect pH but it's something to work with.
> 
> ...


you should measure ph with a test kit and use the ph probe as well. You want to aim for 1 full point drop in ph, that would show 30ppm. If your measurement is correct, that seems about correct in 30ppm.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

ua hua said:


> This is the way I have seen it ran by many others including myself. That's not to say your way won't work but I would think you would get better dissolution running the input down the PVC but try to run it how you have it hooked up and see but to me that's kind of the same way an Aquamedic reactor works and I never got 100% dissolution running that reactor. By the way I don't care for the term reactor because the only reaction going on is the contact time with the water which can happen if you run a diffuser in your tank. I guess your whole tank would be the reactor then. I run a needle wheel pump through my (bubble collector) as I refer to it and have a sponge on the bottom of the PVC to slow down the bubbles trying to escape the PVC tube. The thing with this hobby is there is more than one way to skin a cat so if running it this way works for you then that's great. Also don't rely on drop checkers to tell you if your co2 is at desired levels because they are not an accurate way to judge that more of a ballpark. Keep us posted if this continues to work for you. And for that diagram you posted Andy the way they have the flow is the way he had his hooked up but the difference being the co2 is injected into the bottom of the reactor and has to flow around within the media in the reactor housing which is how the Aquamedic reactor is but with this design it's easy for false gas to build up inside the reactor.


What do you mean by false gas? I have about a 1/2" of CO2 at the top of the reactor that swirls around until it's dissolved. None of the CO2 makes it down the 20" of housing without being dissolved. When the CO2 tank turns off it takes less than a minute for the rest of the gas at the top to dissolve and then the housing is 100% filled with water. I have no need to put a sponge at the bottom to prevent the CO2 from making it to the return pipe since it all dissolves.

Also, what is the recommended way to check CO2? I've read drop checkers are the best as the ph/KH calculation is inaccurate. I'm trying to use both to find a happy medium.


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## andyl9063 (Oct 22, 2010)

rdmustang1 said:


> What do you mean by false gas? I have about a 1/2" of CO2 at the top of the reactor that swirls around until it's dissolved. None of the CO2 makes it down the 20" of housing without being dissolved. When the CO2 tank turns off it takes less than a minute for the rest of the gas at the top to dissolve and then the housing is 100% filled with water. I have no need to put a sponge at the bottom to prevent the CO2 from making it to the return pipe since it all dissolves.
> 
> Also, what is the recommended way to check CO2? I've read drop checkers are the best as the ph/KH calculation is inaccurate. I'm trying to use both to find a happy medium.


drop checker is just a guide, but not very accurate. Your ph probe is probably your best bet if calibrated correctly. Measure with ph probe and ph test kit before co2 comes on. Then aim for 1 point drop in ph. If your ph was 8, then 7 should be 30ppm of co2.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

I'm loving the Apex. For those who haven't seen it, here's a graph of my pH over the last 24 hours. I put the probe in about 24 hours ago. It was stored in a 4.0 pH solution so you'll see the pH rise to the 7.x range and then at 20:00 the CO2 turns off and it rises. Then at 08:30 it turns on and you see it start to drop again.










Question: Are there any common fish that are sensitive to 1 degree pH swings caused by CO2 turning on and off?


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## andyl9063 (Oct 22, 2010)

rdmustang1 said:


> I'm loving the Apex. For those who haven't seen it, here's a graph of my pH over the last 24 hours. I put the probe in about 24 hours ago. It was stored in a 4.0 pH solution so you'll see the pH rise to the 7.x range and then at 20:00 the CO2 turns off and it rises. Then at 08:30 it turns on and you see it start to drop again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yeah i love mine too. just need to setup the reactor today and test it out.
As far as fish goes, it should not matter. As long as all your other parameters is good. I don't think you have any sensitive fish, I have discus and they were fine with 1 point drop.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

rdmustang1 said:


> What do you mean by false gas? I have about a 1/2" of CO2 at the top of the reactor that swirls around until it's dissolved. None of the CO2 makes it down the 20" of housing without being dissolved. When the CO2 tank turns off it takes less than a minute for the rest of the gas at the top to dissolve and then the housing is 100% filled with water. I have no need to put a sponge at the bottom to prevent the CO2 from making it to the return pipe since it all dissolves.
> 
> Also, what is the recommended way to check CO2? I've read drop checkers are the best as the ph/KH calculation is inaccurate. I'm trying to use both to find a happy medium.


If you have gas at the top of your reactor then you aren't getting 100% dissolution. That was the problem I was having running the Aquamedic reactor especially at higher co2 rates. As for measuring co2 the 1 point drop is a good indicator for 30 ppm of co2 but some tank may require more or less depending on the plants in your tank. You can also do the inverted graduated cylinder test to see how much co2 your are injecting. With a 190 gal tank with overflow you will need to have your co2 up higher than you may think. The best indicator is simple observation of your plants/ livestock. If you put plants in with no livestock for some time I would crank the co2 to get everything growing real good to help keep algae at bay.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

ua hua said:


> If you have gas at the top of your reactor then you aren't getting 100% dissolution. That was the problem I was having running the Aquamedic reactor especially at higher co2 rates. As for measuring co2 the 1 point drop is a good indicator for 30 ppm of co2 but some tank may require more or less depending on the plants in your tank. You can also do the inverted graduated cylinder test to see how much co2 your are injecting. With a 190 gal tank with overflow you will need to have your co2 up higher than you may think. The best indicator is simple observation of your plants/ livestock. If you put plants in with no livestock for some time I would crank the co2 to get everything growing real good to help keep algae at bay.


The CO2 at the top of the reactor is exactly why it works. It sits there until it's dissolved. More CO2 is pumped in but the amount at the top never increases because it's being dissolved in the water. In your scenario gas at the top means that you're not getting 100% dissolution because your outlet is at the top. In my setup gas reaching the bottom means I'm not getting 100% but none reaches the bottom. It stays at a constant amount at the top even though I'm poring it in. 

Based on my pH drop I think I'm putting too much in for fauna. I'm running a Swagelok needle valve and it's opened up like 3 or 4 full rotations. I put on a bubble counter but the CO2 is basically just a steady stream (no individual bubbles). I'm sure I'm losing some CO2 with my sump but I think I've minimized the loss with almost no agitation. Initially I used the drop checker to estimate but then a couple days ago I started validating with pH drop. I'm currently getting a 1.1 degree pH drop.

Here's a video of my reactor in action. You can clearly see how the bubbles are pushed down, rise back up and dissolve. Youtube Link


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

I think your misunderstanding me. The gas build that I used to get was when I ran an Aquamedic reactor which the output is at the bottom and the co2 build up was at the top which wasn't being dissolved and building up. If the co2 was dissolving completely in the water then your reactor should be full on water and not have any co2 at the top. That's co2 that's not dissolving and rising to the top of your reactor housing trying to escape into the atmosphere. If a co2 bubble completely dissolves into the water it wouldn't be able to rise to the surface.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

ua hua said:


> I think your misunderstanding me. The gas build that I used to get was when I ran an Aquamedic reactor which the output is at the bottom and the co2 build up was at the top which wasn't being dissolved and building up. If the co2 was dissolving completely in the water then your reactor should be full on water and not have any co2 at the top. That's co2 that's not dissolving and rising to the top of your reactor housing trying to escape into the atmosphere. If a co2 bubble completely dissolves into the water it wouldn't be able to rise to the surface.


I think I misled you. There isn't a CO2 buildup at the top. For some reason I remembered there was but I just checked and took a video. Take a look:

Link


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

rdmustang1 said:


> I think I misled you. There isn't a CO2 buildup at the top. For some reason I remembered there was but I just checked and took a video. Take a look:
> 
> Link


I see. I guess we were both misunderstood. I was thinking that there was an empty space void of water where the co2 was building up. That looks like its working just fine. I do run mine a little different because I use a needle wheel pump to chop up the co2. After seeing yours running I think others may want to see how well running it this way works. I'm really looking forward to seeing your tank progress so keep posting updates.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

The tank finished cycling Saturday. I wanted to make sure so I bumped the ammonia level back up to 4ppm and Saturday night there was 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite. Nitrates were up to 40ppm so I did a 50% water change on Sunday morning. Waited a few hours, tested and Nitrates were down to 20ppm. All afternoon Sunday my family and I went fish shopping. We had 20 or so fish that we moved over from my 29 gallon and added another 80 or so including:

5x Clown Loaches
9x Black Skirt Tetras
7x Buenos Aires Tetra
30x Neon Tetras
5x Boesemani Rainbow
4x Sterbai Cories
1x Panda Cories
9x Golden Lyretail Mollies
9x Red Minor Tetras
4x Giant Danios
5x Otocinclus
3x Bristlenose Pleco
2x Clown Pleco
2x Rubber Lip Pleco
5x Nerite Snails
1x Starburst Platty (my daughter's choice)
1x Mickey Mouse Platty (my son's choice)

and probably more I'm forgetting. I've done fishless cycling before but never added so many fish at once (never had such a big tank). 48 hours later only 1 casualty: a neon tetra that went into shock as soon as he was put in a bag.

Here is a mediocre picture. I'm still trying to get the hang of aquarium photography.









It doesn't look like many fish but it is very active when seen in person. I'll try and upload a video later.

I actually had a decent amount of BBA and hair algae due to prolonged high ammonia/nitrite levels from fishless cycling. I think it was a combination of the algae eaters (nerites, plecos, ottos) as well as the mollies that took care of it. All the plants, the acrylic and background were spotless about an hour after adding the fish. I was pleasantly surprised to say the least!


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## II Knucklez II (Oct 31, 2011)

Nice!can't wait to see it fill in!

Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk


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## jmf3460 (Aug 21, 2013)

lovely. are all the fish in there in that picture?


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

jmf3460 said:


> lovely. are all the fish in there in that picture?


Thanks! It's so nice to have fauna moving after all the work required to get to this point.

And yes, there are 100+ in there (hard to believe, huh?). I took that picture this morning before the sun came up because there is a lot of glare in that room and I don't have any window treatments yet. Not many fish were really out. I'm going to take more pictures and video later to showcase them better.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

Video of active fish


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

Well, I added quite a few fish to begin with and didn't quarantine any of them since there was no way to quarantine 100+ fish. I took a chance and got bit.

I believe I bought some danios that have neon tetra disease. It took out about 10 of the danios, 8 neons, 3 cories, and a clown loach before I was able to figure it out. I treated with Seachem Sulfathiazole thinking it might be a fungus. Either the treatment or me quarantining any suspect looking fish curved the death toll. I was losing 2-5 fish a day and now it's down to 1 a day (all danios) for the past 3 days. I'm really hoping I have it under control.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

That's too bad about your fish. I think that adding that many fish at once is really risky until your biological filter can handle the biomass load that is put on it. It's difficult to not want to add a bunch of fish but I always try to add fish in smaller groups until you reach the desired numbers you want. I'm a firm believer in quarantine tanks but that comes from my years spent in reef keeping and losing something on that side of the hobby can cost hundreds of dollars. I could have bought a nice car from the amount I have spent on the fish/corals when I was keeping a reef tank.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

ua hua said:


> That's too bad about your fish. I think that adding that many fish at once is really risky until your biological filter can handle the biomass load that is put on it. It's difficult to not want to add a bunch of fish but I always try to add fish in smaller groups until you reach the desired numbers you want. I'm a firm believer in quarantine tanks but that comes from my years spent in reef keeping and losing something on that side of the hobby can cost hundreds of dollars. I could have bought a nice car from the amount I have spent on the fish/corals when I was keeping a reef tank.


With fishless cycling your biological filter is set up to handle approximately 3 times the amount of fish you should have in a full tank. In fact, many people stock the tank full on day #1 after completing the cycle and lose no fish. With traditional cycling techniques your filter grows with you so you can only add a small number at a time. You often also lose fish due to the lack of a proper bacteria bed. Those fish that do survive often go through very harsh conditions (some call it torture). That's why I think fishless cycling is by far the best way to go.

The reason for the loss had absolutely nothing to do with the filter. Ammonia and nitrites remained at 0 and my nitrates run at 20ppm (which is mainly due to the nitrates in the fertilizer I add every day). My bacteria bed could drop 5+ppm of ammonia to nitrite in about 1.5 hours and then turn the resulting nitrite to nitrate in another 3. I could have added 500 fish and the bacteria bed would have smiled and happily taken care of them. The problem was that some fish (I think the zebra danios) brought in a disease and started spreading it around. It was a risk I knew was there but took my chances. I got all my fish at lfs that I'm familiar and happy with. The danios were the only exception. I bought them from a store that I heard great things about but have never used. The fish looked great when I first added them. Unfortunately I had never heard of NTD and didn't know what to look out for. IMO, it is very hard to identify and even now none of my lfs have even heard of it.

Btw, I'm a firm believer in quarantine tanks too. I have one set up but didn't use it for the first batch of fish since basically my main tank would be used as quarantine. Once I can go 2-3 weeks without any issues I'll start adding more fish using my dedicated quarantine tank.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

rdmustang1 said:


> With fishless cycling your biological filter is set up to handle approximately 3 times the amount of fish you should have in a full tank. In fact, many people stock the tank full on day #1 after completing the cycle and lose no fish. With traditional cycling techniques your filter grows with you so you can only add a small number at a time. You often also lose fish due to the lack of a proper bacteria bed. Those fish that do survive often go through very harsh conditions (some call it torture). That's why I think fishless cycling is by far the best way to go.


I don't agree with this at all and it's not true. You can't add huge numbers of fish right after your cycle completes itself. While fishless cycling may allow for you to partially stock the aquarium once the cycle completes doesn't mean the filter media is aged enough to handle large amounts of fish waste at once. The beneficial bacteria needs time to adjust to the increase in numbers of fish and waste. With that being said I can't say for sure that is the reason for your fish loss but it's not good advice either way.

If you don't take my word for it take a read through a few articles on fishless cycling. Every article says to add a few fish at a time to allow the bacteria to catch up to the bioload you are putting on it. The fishless cycling was started by African cichlid keepers that wanted to add large amounts of fish at once to keep aggression minimal. It also depends on how many ppm of Ammonia your filter could process. Were you raising your Ammonia to 1 ppm or 5 ppm during fishless cycling? That makes a huge difference on what your beneficial bacteria can process.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/fishless-cycling-for-dummies-103339.html

http://www.wikihow.com/Do-a-Fishless-Cycle


http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forum...guide-and-faq-to-fishless-cycling-148283.html


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

ua hua said:


> I don't agree with this at all and it's not true. You can't add huge numbers of fish right after your cycle completes itself. While fishless cycling may allow for you to partially stock the aquarium once the cycle completes doesn't mean the filter media is aged enough to handle large amounts of fish waste at once. The beneficial bacteria needs time to adjust to the increase in numbers of fish and waste. With that being said I can't say for sure that is the reason for your fish loss but it's not good advice either way.
> 
> If you don't take my word for it take a read through a few articles on fishless cycling. Every article says to add a few fish at a time to allow the bacteria to catch up to the bioload you are putting on it. The fishless cycling was started by African cichlid keepers that wanted to add large amounts of fish at once to keep aggression minimal. It also depends on how many ppm of Ammonia your filter could process. Were you raising your Ammonia to 1 ppm or 5 ppm during fishless cycling? That makes a huge difference on what your beneficial bacteria can process.
> 
> ...


I was raising it to 5ppm which would convert in about 1-1.5 hours. In reality it could handle much more than I was adding and the amount I was adding was more than a full tank produces. I also have about 3 times as much media in my sump as I need. I tested my tank at least 2 times every day and ammonia and nitrite never rose above 0. You can disagree all you want but I've been fishless cycling for over 15 years with huge success.

Btw, one of your links doesn't say how many fish to add, one says to not go crazy and the 3rd says you can stock it full if you'd like. I stocked my tank about 1/3rd full and my bacteria bed had no issues. As you are well aware, there is so much false information in fish keeping that it's sickening. The article you posted that says you can't do it is probably wrong. Maybe the one that says you can do it is wrong but I have stocked at least a half dozen smaller tanks full on day #1 with no issues. I thought I could get away with it this time because I've only had 2 sick fish in the past 10 years or so. Unfortunately it's a numbers game and given enough fish you're going to get at least one sick one.

Today is day #2 with no dead fish and none with issues. I'm really hoping I'm done with this.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

rdmustang1 said:


> I was raising it to 5ppm which would convert in about 1-1.5 hours. In reality it could handle much more than I was adding and the amount I was adding was more than a full tank produces. I also have about 3 times as much media in my sump as I need. I tested my tank at least 2 times every day and ammonia and nitrite never rose above 0. You can disagree all you want but I've been fishless cycling for over 15 years with huge success.
> 
> Btw, one of your links doesn't say how many fish to add, one says to not go crazy and the 3rd says you can stock it full if you'd like. I stocked my tank about 1/3rd full and my bacteria bed had no issues. As you are well aware, there is so much false information in fish keeping that it's sickening. The article you posted that says you can't do it is probably wrong. Maybe the one that says you can do it is wrong but I have stocked at least a half dozen smaller tanks full on day #1 with no issues. I thought I could get away with it this time because I've only had 2 sick fish in the past 10 years or so. Unfortunately it's a numbers game and given enough fish you're going to get at least one sick one.
> 
> Today is day #2 with no dead fish and none with issues. I'm really hoping I'm done with this.


The truth is the articles say(and I quote)...
Don’t go bonkers, though. Even though you can certainly add more than one fish, that doesn’t mean you should dump in twenty. Just remember that as you add fish, and only a few at a time, you must give the good bacteria a little time to adjust to the increase in numbers and waste. 

And then the next one says(again I quote)...
Only add a few fish at a time. This will let your filter adapt to the extra bioload.

And finally the third article that says this....
24. *All finished! How many fish should I add initially?
You’re bio-filter is so strong that you could technically add the full stocking level to your tank, but you don’t want to. Fish need time to establish territory and dominance, so if you throw them all in at once it’s asking for trouble. Personally I stocked my tank around 50% full at first with peaceful community fish. You don’t want to add too many at first, but if you only added a couple tiny fish at the beginning they won’t provide the amount of ammonia that your new bio-filter needs to stay strong. Shoot for a middle ground and add a reasonable sized amount of fish depending on your tank size and by researching the type of fish you plan on getting. This is where common sense is most important.

I understand you say you have been doing this for 15 years but I'm no amateur at doing this myself and I happen to disagree with the advice of adding huge numbers of fish at once, that's all. I'm not trying to argue with your methods I just don't think it's good advice that others should follow.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

ua hua said:


> The truth is the articles say(and I quote)...
> Don’t go bonkers, though. Even though you can certainly add more than one fish, that doesn’t mean you should dump in twenty. Just remember that as you add fish, and only a few at a time, you must give the good bacteria a little time to adjust to the increase in numbers and waste.
> 
> And then the next one says(again I quote)...
> ...


Everyone is allowed their own opinion. I'm curious why you think heavily stocking a tank with an adequate bacteria bed is a bad idea (serious question). 

Btw, for every article saying not to stock full there are 2 that say you can stock it full. For the most part there is a correlation to whether they recommend fully stocking and the amount of ammonia that is dosed (as you pointed out). I will say if you plan to overstock your tank due to factors like extra large biological filtration, heavy planting, etc I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that. But if you have a 30 gallon tank i have no issue adding 25-30 various small fish and being done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishless_cycling
http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/113861-fishless-cycling/
http://petskeepersguide.com/fishless-cycle-nitrogen-cycle/
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/fishless_cycling.php
http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/aquarium-nitrogen-cycle/19627-ammonia-instructions-fishless-cycle.html


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

rdmustang1 said:


> Everyone is allowed their own opinion. I'm curious why you think heavily stocking a tank with an adequate bacteria bed is a bad idea (serious question).


Because there is a difference between a cycled tank and a mature tank. If you have done a fishless cycle, using 5ppm of Ammonia, then your tank would be cycled to a bioload of fish that also produce 5ppm of Ammonia. If you added any more fish than would produce 5ppm, you would probably go into a mini cycle. If you added less fish than 5ppm, some of the bacteria would die off. Like I stated earlier the fishless cycle was started by Dr. Chris Cow for hobbyists keeping African cichlids where it was to help in stocking a tank fully at the beginning to curb aggression between fish that don't do well once they establish territories. As far as I'm concerned and so are many other experienced fish keepers a mature tank is much safer environment than a freshly cycled one.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

ua hua said:


> Because there is a difference between a cycled tank and a mature tank. If you have done a fishless cycle, using 5ppm of Ammonia, then your tank would be cycled to a bioload of fish that also produce 5ppm of Ammonia. If you added any more fish than would produce 5ppm, you would probably go into a mini cycle. If you added less fish than 5ppm, some of the bacteria would die off. Like I stated earlier the fishless cycle was started by Dr. Chris Cow for hobbyists keeping African cichlids where it was to help in stocking a tank fully at the beginning to curb aggression between fish that don't do well once they establish territories. As far as I'm concerned and so are many other experienced fish keepers a mature tank is much safer environment than a freshly cycled one.


I guess we (and 'many other experienced fish keepers' on both sides) will have have to agree to disagree.


On the upside...

Fish are doing great. They follow me around all the time hoping that I will feed them. I'm feeding various dry pellets and flake in the morning and a frozen brine shrimp at night. It's hard to gauge how much to feed them since there are so many fish. It feels like I'm doing too much but I think that's based on having a 29 gallon so long. The food is gone so fast and they beg for more. I do like feeding twice a day instead of once because I get to enjoy watching them eat but also in this tank there are groups that really only eat in the morning and those that eat at night. In previous tanks I never had that but now it's obvious.

I added some Anubias, Cabomba, Vals, more S. Repens and I found a Madagascar Lace (my wife's favorite plant). I've never had luck with Lace before but this is my first time with a proper plant setup so I'm hoping my luck changes.

I think the tank is ready for its first pruning. All of the stem plants have broken the water's surface. I have two shipments of new plants coming in on Thursday so I'll probably do it Thursday night. I'll post pics when I'm done.

I am having a bit of BBA algae, mostly on the S. Repens and on the substrate. I've reduced the lighting period from 9 to 8 hours. I may reduce it more until its resolved.


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## du3ce (Jan 26, 2013)

your fish died because your filter although while established does not have enough bacteria to support 90 fish at once. im surprised that u didnt lose all of your fishes


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## 1Sarah (Jan 31, 2014)

Beautiful tank! I'd love to see an updated FTS!

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

du3ce said:


> your fish died because your filter although while established does not have enough bacteria to support 90 fish at once. im surprised that u didnt lose all of your fishes


No, my bacteria bed was much stronger than I needed it. Ammonia and nitrites never went above 0. Nitrates never rose above 20ppm. There is no magical, mysterious substance in the water. It comes down to ammonia, nitrites and nitrates which I monitored very closely (sometimes 3 times a day because I'm a paranoid person). I could have added 300 fish and my bacteria would have handled them just fine.

I lost the fish because the zebra danios had a fungal infection that spread to the other fish. There were extremely small white patches on all the dead fish that I initially missed. I didn't notice it until I lost a couple neon tetras where the white patch was much more noticeable. I thought it was NTD at first but now I believe it was a fungal.


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## thelub (Jan 4, 2013)

I'm with you on the fishless cycle and your filter being able to handle the load. That is a lot of little fish that aren't producing much waste.

I would bet your problem came from the source of the fish. We ALWAYS have problems with danios at the shop. Especially when they come from THE big supplier out of Florida.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

thelub said:


> I'm with you on the fishless cycle and your filter being able to handle the load. That is a lot of little fish that aren't producing much waste.
> 
> I would bet your problem came from the source of the fish. We ALWAYS have problems with danios at the shop. Especially when they come from THE big supplier out of Florida.


Thanks! I will accept blame for their deaths but it wasn't because of a lacking bacteria bed. I bought lots of fish from lots of different sources (5 I think). Had they all been healthy I think my losses would have been 2 (2 neons died before even making it into the tank). Also, the deaths instantly ceased once I treated the fungal infection. If my bacteria was to blame then this is a huge coincidence. Nothing except old-school superstition points to my tank being at fault for their deaths.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

I forgot to mention. I noticed that it was taking a while for CO2 to saturate the water when turning on in the morning. Sometimes as much as 4 hours. I figured I already have the pH controller in place that I might as well use it. 

The first task was to obtain a base pH with no CO2. I had turned off CO2 while I was having issues with fungus just in case that was stressing out the fish. It was actually helpful as I found that my pH stabalized (according to my calibrated pH) at 7.95.

So, using the 1 degree pH change is approximately 30ppm rule I know I need to shoot for a pH of 6.95. I set my Apex controller to inject CO2 so that my pH now swings between 6.9 and 6.95. This equates to approximately 20 minutes on and 35 minutes off round the clock. The on period slightly decreases and the off period slightly increases at night. I'm hoping to get the on period down even more because the acrylic supports on my wet/dry filter came loose. I had glass supports cut for me and siliconed them in. Unfortunately because of a slight change of angle my drip plate no longer fits. I'm going to try and fix that today so that the wet/dry portion of my sump will be sealed. Hopefully all I have to do is just cut 1/16" off of the plate and then put it back in place.

I could probably also drop the "on" period if I cranked up my CO2 but I don't want to do that for one main reason. If the pH sensor starts degrading in accuracy I don't want to pump the tank full of CO2. The level it's turned on to now would only slightly increase CO2 saturation if the probe shifted higher and left CO2 on longer.

As an added benefit, my pH remains stable 24/7 and the water is fully saturated when the lights turn on. It's been like this for about a week and I can already tell a difference as my plants are growing noticeably faster.

The down side is that I'm liking the Apex so much I want to get one for my 12 gallon but it's hard spending more on a controller than the cost of the entire setup.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

rdmustang1 said:


> Thanks! I will accept blame for their deaths but it wasn't because of a lacking bacteria bed. I bought lots of fish from lots of different sources (5 I think). Had they all been healthy I think my losses would have been 2 (2 neons died before even making it into the tank). Also, the deaths instantly ceased once I treated the fungal infection. If my bacteria was to blame then this is a huge coincidence. Nothing except old-school superstition points to my tank being at fault for their deaths.


While I may be old school there is nothing superstious about the way beneficial bacteria work. I will say the same thing I said in my first post. While I can't say for sure why your fish died, I still don't think it's good advice to add large numbers of fish after a tank has cycled using the fishless cycling. Let me explain to you why I feel this way. You said you were raising your ammonia to 4 ppm which I'm sure you did daily since this is what you do when fishless cycling. Nitrifying bacteria require 12-32 hours to multiply, which they do by binary division [each bacterium divides into two bacteria].Nitrosomonas multiply in less time (12+ hours) while Nitrospira require more time (up to 32 hours). In a new aquarium, it can take up to eight weeks for the bacteria populations to reach a level capable of eliminating ammonia and nitrite. Scientific studies have also now proven that Nitrospira are inhibited and cannot multiply in water that contains significant concentrations of ammonia, and evidence exists to suggest that existing populations of Nitrospira actually become dormant when ammonia is present in high concentrations. It has been determined that with an active ammonia [NH3] level of 0.7 mg/l (=ppm) Nitrospira bacteria experienced a decrease of 50% effectiveness, resulting in an accumulation of nitrite. So with fishless cycling the Nitrospira are not multiplying with the NH3 levels at 4 ppm. 

While your filter may have been building up the beneficial bacteria your tank is not mature enough to handle large numbers of fish. I know that someone said they are small fish but not all of those were tiny fish and some of them produce a lot of waste. Anybody that has owned a pleco can attest to just how much a little 3" fish can produce. The greatest population of bacteria in a healthy balanced aquarium occurs in the substrate, not the filter. I said this earlier and will say it again. A mature tank and a newly cycled are not the same. Most hobbyists that keep real sensitive fish or those involved in the marine side of the hobby avoid doing the fishless cycle and wait until a tank becomes established with beneficial bacteria and is fully mature before adding livestock. I have had many reef tanks that sat for months and months before adding a few critters to. I will leave by saying again that I can't say for sure what killed your fish but as for my opinion (old school maybe) on adding large numbers of fish right after a tank completes its cycle is not good advice


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

ua hua said:


> While I may be old school there is nothing superstious about the way beneficial bacteria work. I will say the same thing I said in my first post. While I can't say for sure why your fish died, I still don't think it's good advice to add large numbers of fish after a tank has cycled using the fishless cycling. Let me explain to you why I feel this way. You said you were raising your ammonia to 4 ppm which I'm sure you did daily since this is what you do when fishless cycling. Nitrifying bacteria require 12-32 hours to multiply, which they do by binary division [each bacterium divides into two bacteria].Nitrosomonas multiply in less time (12+ hours) while Nitrospira require more time (up to 32 hours). In a new aquarium, it can take up to eight weeks for the bacteria populations to reach a level capable of eliminating ammonia and nitrite. Scientific studies have also now proven that Nitrospira are inhibited and cannot multiply in water that contains significant concentrations of ammonia, and evidence exists to suggest that existing populations of Nitrospira actually become dormant when ammonia is present in high concentrations. It has been determined that with an active ammonia [NH3] level of 0.7 mg/l (=ppm) Nitrospira bacteria experienced a decrease of 50% effectiveness, resulting in an accumulation of nitrite. So with fishless cycling the Nitrospira are not multiplying with the NH3 levels at 4 ppm.
> 
> While your filter may have been building up the beneficial bacteria your tank is not mature enough to handle large numbers of fish. I know that someone said they are small fish but not all of those were tiny fish and some of them produce a lot of waste. Anybody that has owned a pleco can attest to just how much a little 3" fish can produce. The greatest population of bacteria in a healthy balanced aquarium occurs in the substrate, not the filter. I said this earlier and will say it again. A mature tank and a newly cycled are not the same. Most hobbyists that keep real sensitive fish or those involved in the marine side of the hobby avoid doing the fishless cycle and wait until a tank becomes established with beneficial bacteria and is fully mature before adding livestock. I have had many reef tanks that sat for months and months before adding a few critters to. I will leave by saying again that I can't say for sure what killed your fish but as for my opinion (old school maybe) on adding large numbers of fish right after a tank completes its cycle is not good advice


Again, we'll have to agree to disagree because neither of us are changing our mind. If the Nitrospira didn't reproduce to a sufficient level then there would have been a nitrite spike. There was not. I know why my fish died and I've explained it multiple times. Nothing more needs to be said.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

So someone on dfwmas was selling a Tek 8x54w light for an crazy low price. My wife laughed at me because I met him last night at midnight since there was a lot of interest in the light. I moved the 6 bulbs from my lights over and I have to say even with my cheap bulbs the light is at least 30% better. The tank is lit so much nicer and clearer. The new light is black so it looks much cooler and has 8' cords instead of 3' so the cords go down through the overflow. It looks so much nicer. I really think the lighting was the biggest part of the tank that I skimped on and now I feel much better that I have something decent.

I also built my own PAR meter based on Hoppy's thread. I haven't waterproofed it yet but outside the water my light is producing 140 PAR. I'm going to waterproof it tomorrow and see what water does to the PAR. I'm hoping I get enough reduction to get me into the 90-120 range.

Next improvement is probably replacing these bulbs with something better. I definitely have enough light but I'd like to get something that will make the reds pop.

Any suggestions on lights? I'm looking at the GE starcoat and the Corallife 6700k.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

Did my first trim. I know they say not to for 3 months but all the stems were breaking the surface.

Here's a pic. I cut everything pretty short as I want to grow out to fill in some of the empty space.










I'm really liking how it's progressing. Honestly, the picture doesn't do the tank justice. It's not competition quality but I'm happy with my limited artistic vision abilities


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

That's filling in nicely. You will really like the Tek light, and the 8 bulb version is discontinued so you can't find them anymore. What are you using for bulbs in your fixture? If you haven't decided on bulbs yet I would consider Geismann midday and Aquaflora. I have a nice color combo in mine of 2 Geismann midday, 2 Aquaflora, 1 UVL red sun, 1 ATI purple plus or blue special. It covers a wide range of spectrums but is really heavy in the reds. 

And FYI that plant in the middle of your tank looks a lot like Dracena which is not an aquatic plant.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

ua hua said:


> That's filling in nicely. You will really like the Tek light, and the 8 bulb version is discontinued so you can't find them anymore. What are you using for bulbs in your fixture? If you haven't decided on bulbs yet I would consider Geismann midday and Aquaflora. I have a nice color combo in mine of 2 Geismann midday, 2 Aquaflora, 1 UVL red sun, 1 ATI purple plus or blue special. It covers a wide range of spectrums but is really heavy in the reds.
> 
> And FYI that plant in the middle of your tank looks a lot like Dracena which is not an aquatic plant.


The plant in the middle was sold as a south american sword variety. It's doing well except growth is exceptionally slow. It had some algae growing on it but a quick bleach bath and it's all gone. I put check valves on my dosing pumps and didn't think to check how much they were pumping out. The check valves reduced ferts by 1/2. I think the long photo period and lack of ferts caused a small algae bloom. I fixed the ferts and lowered photo period and the algae stopped.

As far as bulbs I'm still using the cheap chinese bulbs that came with my fishneedit fixtures. I was planning on copying Tom Barr's bulb setup as his seems to accentuate his reds which is one of my main goals:

2x Giesemann Aqua Flora
2x Wavepoint Sunwave
2x Zoomed Flora
Wavepoint Red Wave
UVL Red Sun

I'm trying to locate a good price on the bulbs. I got the Zoomed Floras at Petco on clearance. I can find 5 of the 6 remaining bulbs at marinedepot but they charge $20 unless you order 6 bulbs. Trying to find someone who needs a bulb since I don't need any other bulbs from them. The only bulb that I will have to buy by itself is the Red Wave. Are there any good alternatives to the Wavepoint Red Wave that would provide similar light?


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

Does that plant in the middle have white on the outer edges of the leaves or is that just the lighting in the picture? 

I ran into that same problem when I was ordering some bulbs for my fixture. Needless to say i have extras now and I like to change bulbs around to see what looks best. That's a lot of red bulbs, if it we me I would add a blue/purple colored bulb and lose one of the zoomed flora. That would give you a nice mix but not too much red. The blue bulbs really make the colors on the fish pop also. The Aquaflora will be almost just like the wavepoint as will the zoomed flora. They are all pink bulbs but I haven't seen the wavepoint in person so it may be a little different but their all still pink bulbs. Now the UVL red sun is red. Freaky red.


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## barakainus (May 15, 2009)

I'm not expert in plants but that plant in the middle is very likely not sword plant but rather non-aquatic plant.

I read the discussion about adding all fish after fish-less cycling or not. Of course, if the bacteria are accustomed to high levels of ammonia, they don't care where that's coming from. Adding all fish is not a problem (as long as you know what you doing). In theory, having tons of fish or few fish doesn't make much difference. The main difference is how much food is put in the system. That's where the ammonia comes from. 
I usually do fishless cycling, add all fish I want/have and, just to make it extra smooth, don't feed them for couple of days and then start feeding slowly more and more over the following days. Maybe in two weeks, I'm on normal feeding regime. 

Great tank, btw.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

ua hua said:


> Does that plant in the middle have white on the outer edges of the leaves or is that just the lighting in the picture?
> 
> I ran into that same problem when I was ordering some bulbs for my fixture. Needless to say i have extras now and I like to change bulbs around to see what looks best. That's a lot of red bulbs, if it we me I would add a blue/purple colored bulb and lose one of the zoomed flora. That would give you a nice mix but not too much red. The blue bulbs really make the colors on the fish pop also. The Aquaflora will be almost just like the wavepoint as will the zoomed flora. They are all pink bulbs but I haven't seen the wavepoint in person so it may be a little different but their all still pink bulbs. Now the UVL red sun is red. Freaky red.


Thanks! I may pick up the ATI blue on your recommendation. Worst case I don't use it. Best case, I save tons of money on shipping later on!

Stupid question: Any negatives to having a non-aquatic plant in the tank? It's been in there 2 months and seems to be doing great. Slow growth but great.


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## barakainus (May 15, 2009)

rdmustang1 said:


> Stupid question: Any negatives to having a non-aquatic plant in the tank? It's been in there 2 months and seems to be doing great. Slow growth but great.


Actually, most of the aquarium plants are not true underwater plants. Many of them can survive submerged for a long time. Some of them do well only if they still have enough light and enough co2. Some will survive for some time but eventually will die. They don't really contribute for water cleaning because they don't grow that much if at all. I guess that's the case of your plant.
Another problem is that some non-aquatic plants can be toxic. 
If you like your plant, leave it there and take it out once it will start rotting.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

rdmustang1 said:


> Thanks! I may pick up the ATI blue on your recommendation. Worst case I don't use it. Best case, I save tons of money on shipping later on!
> 
> Stupid question: Any negatives to having a non-aquatic plant in the tank? It's been in there 2 months and seems to be doing great. Slow growth but great.


It looks like that one plant is one of those that can survive for a short time (a couple weeks to a couple months or so) underwater but will eventually die. It won't really provide much benefit to your tank, but will cause the problems most dying plants will in a tank. It should, however, do well as a riparium/emergent plant with its roots moist.

Other than that, it's looking good!


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

Some fish started acting stressed and I couldn't understand why so I ran some tests. My nitrates started spiking (40ppm+, not quite 80ppm) out of nowhere. They normally stay right at 20ppm. No new fish. 

I went to go stop my dosing pumps because the ferts have NO3 in them and I wanted to rule it out. I realized that instead of dosing 1/2 dose twice a day I was dosing 1/2 dose 6 times a day 

I switched from PPS-PRO to EI dosing last week and when I adjusted the dosing amount I messed up the program in my Apex. From now on I'll verify any changes via logs.

I did notice that with 3x EI dosing my stem plants were growing crazy. Some were growing 4-5 inches a day. I had to trim them 3 times this past week. I thought it was just the change from PPS-PRO to EI. I'm actually surprised that there weren't more serious repercussions.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Any algae issues due to overdosing?


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

Phil Edwards said:


> Any algae issues due to overdosing?


No. I still have some BBA on my S. Repens but I think that was due to a problem I encountered where I was accidentally underdosing by more than 50% after I put check valves on my dosing lines and didn't account for the increased resistance. I really need to take them out and do a dip treatment to help with the algae.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

My CO2 ran out today. The 20# tank lasted a little bit over 2 months. Of course I lost a good deal of CO2 when testing the regulator and playing with it to understand how it all worked but I was really expecting a bit longer. 

Picked up some Denison's barbs at Petco today. Between their 50% off sale and the 30% I get off their gift cards I only paid $3.50 each. I also picked up some rummy nose for $0.96 each.

I went back tonight for some GloFish. While I'm not a huge fan my son loves them and I'm going to set up a small tank for him as a birthday present. I couldn't pass up the huge savings on these ridiculously priced fish. With discount they were only $2.80 each. Much easier to swallow than the $8 they want normally.

Anybody else get any good deals?


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## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

Have you checked for leaks? sounds really odd that a 20lb tank would only last for two month...



rdmustang1 said:


> My CO2 ran out today. The 20# tank lasted a little bit over 2 months. Of course I lost a good deal of CO2 when testing the regulator and playing with it to understand how it all worked but I was really expecting a bit longer.
> 
> Picked up some Denison's barbs at Petco today. Between their 50% off sale and the 30% I get off their gift cards I only paid $3.50 each. I also picked up some rummy nose for $0.96 each.
> 
> ...


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

lamiskool said:


> Have you checked for leaks? sounds really odd that a 20lb tank would only last for two month...


I have many times and I will again once I get it filled.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

Just got my tank refilled for the first time. I took it to a place called Two Bucks Liquor that someone on dfwmas recommended.

They take my tank and come back and tell me they could only put 10# of CO2 in my 20# tank because that's all their machine will do. I won't be going back there. This defeats the 2 benefits to a larger tank:

1) Less often refills (my time isn't free)
2) Less costly refills (20# usually isn't much more than 10#).

$21 for the refill. Next time I'll just call around. I'm guessing this will last me 5-6 weeks. I'm hoping longer. I did lose some CO2 last time by figuring out the regulator and bubble counts. No idea how much. I also didn't weigh the tank last time to see how much CO2 was actually in it. This time I know better.

I did another leak test. No leaks found but the regulator is gurgling a bit. I hope water didn't get into it.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

Nevermind..


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## Crazy4discus (Jan 30, 2014)

Nice tank!


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

I just bought some new lights and other stuff for my 190. I got a shipping confirmation this morning and wanted to share part of the email:



> Your aquarium supplies have been carefully picked from Marine Depot's shelves like delicate berries and placed into a wicker basket lined with unicorn fur. With the grace of a ballerina, we tiptoed them to our packing station where Santa's Elves who work with us during their off-season prepared your order for shipment.
> 
> Your products were methodically placed in each box using techniques taught to us by a former Tetris World Champion. Using a pair of tweezers, we placed hundreds of packing peanuts one-by-one into every nook and cranny to ensure safe transport. We are proud to share with you that our packing peanuts are reusable, recyclable, biodegradable and made using 100% recycled content. They also do not trigger peanut allergies. Eat your heart out, Mr. Peanut.


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## MissileBear (Aug 6, 2013)

I have found that Fire Extinguisher distributors/shops are the best place for both hydro-testing cylinders and getting CO2 fills (at least around here). I can get my 20 pounders filled for about $16, and my 5 lb tanks cost about $10 each.

Welding shops, industrial supply stores, and paintball fields were all more expensive for both re-hydro testing and fills.



rdmustang1 said:


> They take my tank and come back and tell me they could only put 10# of CO2 in my 20# tank because that's all their machine will do. I won't be going back there. This defeats the 2 benefits to a larger tank:
> 
> 1) Less often refills (my time isn't free)
> 2) Less costly refills (20# usually isn't much more than 10#).
> ...


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

Well, I took 99% of the Limnophila Sessiliflora out of the tank because it was just growing so fast and I couldn't sell it or even give it away.

What I'm noticing that 2 days later all my red plants are coloring up tremendously. They all turned green in my tank but now are going back to red. 

The only thing I can think of is that the Limnophila Sessiliflora was sucking up/limiting some of the fertilizer. Could that be the reason or could something else cause red plants to start turning red? I don't think anything else has changed.


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## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

Some plants really can be nutrient hogs, you may have just found your tanks "sweet spot". However, I would consider maybe adding some more fertz if you noticed a drastic change after just removing one plant sp. +1 on tank refills from fire extinguisher people. They are much cheap and don't require me to sign a contract with them like my other local company.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

Just got my new lights in. I copied Tom Barr for a starting point. I figure I'll start here and modify as needed.

Giesemann aqua flora
Zoomed Flora
Wavepoint Sunwave
URI Red sun
Wavepoint red wave 
Wavepoint Sunwave
Zoomed Flora
Gieseman Aquaflora

Unfortunately the URI appears to be broken. It won't light up. I have to admit the colors look more vivid on everything. It's definitely more red than before.

[EDIT]: MarineDepot is one of my favorite companies. I emailed them that the bulb wasn't working and they had another one shipped out within the hour.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

How does the wavepoint red wave look when compared to the zoomed flora and Aquaflora bulbs? 

The UVL red sun is almost weird to look at when you first see it because its so red but after awhile of seeing it I wouldn't want to not have it on my tank. 

The reason I ask about the Wavepoint red wave is because I have heard that UVL will be discontinuing the red sun bulb and if I can't find another bulb that looks like it I will be buying a few more of those so I have them on hand. 

I have been thinking about getting some of the Wavepoint red wave and see if I like the way they look. You can never have too many different bulb combos to try out. I have as many bulbs lying around as I have in use but I won't have to order one for awhile if one burns out. 

I would love to see some updated shots of your tank.

And I have to agree about Marine Depot being a top notch place. I have always had great dealings with both them and Aquacave.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

ua hua said:


> How does the wavepoint red wave look when compared to the zoomed flora and Aquaflora bulbs?
> 
> The UVL red sun is almost weird to look at when you first see it because its so red but after awhile of seeing it I wouldn't want to not have it on my tank.
> 
> ...


The ZooMed is by far the most pink. The aqua flora is a weird color. It's kind of pink but almost grey. The red wave is the least pink of the 3. If you were to see it by itself you could tell it's pink but next to the ZooMed it looks almost white.

I'm reluctant to post updated pics as a few things have happened:

1. I haven't had time to properly trim the plants. I did a very quick trim to share some plants with a friend today but the tank is getting overgrown.

2. I'm thinking of setting up a grow out tank where I can store extra plants. I need to put some of my plants on here but I just haven't had the time.

3. I just did a water change and the water is cloudy.

4. I've been getting plants in the mail but instead of rescaping the way I want I've just been plopping them where there is room (and there isn't any room so they just get crammed in). 

I probably won't have time to properly rescape and clean everything up until next weekend. Work is just kicking my butt right now (end of quarter is a bad time).

Anyway, here is a pic from tonight:










You'll notice the back center right is pretty bare. I took out almost all the Limnophila Sessiliflora and there was a ton (300+ stems). I moved the Cabomba in its place but there isn't nearly as much. I'm h oping it grows out fast to fill in some of the void. I am loving the red plants now. They are all orange and red now that the Limnophila is gone. I can't wait for them to achieve full red.


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## PatrickDominick (Feb 13, 2009)

Loving your tank Keith! I'll have to swing by some time and see it for myself!


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## j-pond (Dec 18, 2008)

WOW, very nice tank. One of these years I'll be able to do something that large. Please keep the pics comming.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

I finally did a rescape. It wasn't as drastic as I was expecting but still took a few hours. I also received a replacement URI Red Sun bulb so that's in. It's a freaky red. All the other red bulbs are pinkish. This one is like an orange red. 

What do you think?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

It's filling in really nicely- what a lovely tanks!


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## H2Ogal (Apr 27, 2010)

Can't say I'm loving that orange-red light ... but I do love your tank! 

I just read through this thread and will say I'm in agreement with you all the way on fishless cycling. Sorry to hear about the losses from disease early-on, but it certainly wasn't how you prepped and cycled the tank. I also noticed that you had some limnophila sessiliflora from this tank but yanked it before it could take over, which it certainly would have. What a nightmare plant! L. sessilifloro out-competes all other plants for food and light, which is why it's on the Federal Noxious Weed List and cannot be legally brought into the U.S. or transported across state lines. People do so anyway, often out of ignorance. In my case, I'd received a couple of stems as a freebie with a plant package and thought it was very pretty ... for the first couple of weeks. 

Again, beautiful tank.


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