# This time I think I'm losing the war :-(



## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

> Should I try to starve them omitting my usual EasyLife weekly fertilization? (Nitro+Fosfo+Kalium+Profito)


This will not work. Healthy plant growth supresses algae growth. With no fertilization your plants will be less healthy, grow slower, and that will encourage algae. 

What are you using to increase the GH and KH of your RO water.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Initially, my preference would be for higher levels of NO3 and PO4, which probably means all the nutrients might be better if higher. Since you're high-tech, I'd use the dosing regimen you can find here: Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator, for the EasyLife ferts.

I have been able to completely annihilate any hair algae within 3 days using this approach: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/23-algae/1234042-hair-algae-consuming-moss-hc-advice.html, my post #6. I now do it once a week just as a preventative. Killing the hair algae this way is a short-term approach. The best way to inhibit it is plenty of healthy plants as @Surf said.


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## rjalex (Feb 24, 2018)

Surf said:


> This will not work. Healthy plant growth supresses algae growth. With no fertilization your plants will be less healthy, grow slower, and that will encourage algae.
> 
> What are you using to increase the GH and KH of your RO water.


Thank you.

I am using Dennerle KH+ (1cc per liter of RO makes my 2-3 KH level)
I am using Sera Mineral for the GH

Have a great day.

Bump:


Deanna said:


> Initially, my preference would be for higher levels of NO3 and PO4, which probably means all the nutrients might be better if higher. Since you're high-tech, I'd use the dosing regimen you can find here: Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator, for the EasyLife ferts.
> 
> I have been able to completely annihilate any hair algae within 3 days using this approach: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/23-algae/1234042-hair-algae-consuming-moss-hc-advice.html, my post #6. I now do it once a week just as a preventative. Killing the hair algae this way is a short-term approach. The best way to inhibit it is plenty of healthy plants as @*Surf* said.


I am using that very same calculator to dose Fosfo, Nitro and Profito going for NO3?15,PO4= and Fe=0.1 targets, for Kalium I just go with 10cc/week since the kit gives me permanent high levels (around 30) which I now doubt.

Wow that approach with the "nuclear glut bomb" is scary  I use EasyLife Carbo, would you know if it's the same stuff? Guess I could try with a little reassurance  I'd be really sad to hurt the fish though ...

Thank you VERY MUCH

PS Are my algae Staghorn ???


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

125 L = roughly 30 gallons. You are running 30bpm or 0.5bps. My 5 gallon runs with 1bps, my 30 gallon is uncountable, I'm going to guess 3.5bps. I think you should start ramping up your CO2 to ensure you are reaching decent levels. 

I battled staghorn w/ a 0.6pH drop from CO2 with no luck. I increased to a 1.1pH drop with CO2 and the plants overtook the algae.


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## oscarlloydjohn (Dec 3, 2017)

Yeah, what @Quagulator said is definitely true. You most likely aren't injecting enough CO2. My 30L tank runs 80bpm with a 1.0pH drop. Have you measured the degassed and injected pH?


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

rjalex said:


> I am using that very same calculator to dose Fosfo, Nitro and Profito going for NO3?15,PO4= and Fe=0.1 targets, for Kalium I just go with 10cc/week since the kit gives me permanent high levels (around 30) which I now doubt.
> 
> Wow that approach with the "nuclear glut bomb" is scary  I use EasyLife Carbo, would you know if it's the same stuff? Guess I could try with a little reassurance  I'd be really sad to hurt the fish though ...
> 
> ...


I'd increase my dosing to try to obtain NO3 targets (yours aren't bad) approaching 20 ppm and PO4 in the 3-5 ppm area. If you're measuring 1 ppm of PO4, that is as likely to be 0 ppm as it is 2 ppm, because our test kits aren't precise. Additionally, higher PO4 will help inhibit any GSA issues you may be having on top of the hair algae.

As @Quagulator pointed out, your CO2 could be higher and would probably help. At a KH of 3 and pH 6.55, your CO2 levels are around 25 ppm and we generally like to see 30-35 ppm. Raise your CO2 to hit, at least, 6.4 pH. I go into the 40 ppm area on my tank, but do it gradually over a week to help your fish adjust. On the Rotala Butterfly website, there is a CO2 calculator that details this. Another way is at least a 1 point pH drop from fully gassed to fully degassed, which indicates 30 ppm.

The combination of higher CO2 and ferts should increase your plant health.

Regarding the short-term glut treatment: it works on hair algae (includes staghorn). I do it once a week, now, as a precaution because I drive my tank pretty hard with high light, and have no ill effects. You can ramp-up from any level you consider safe, until you're comfortable. Just wait a week between treatments.

There is also a "One-two Punch" process that you can find on TPT that works. I found it to be cumbersome and had a few fish deaths from the H2O2 (probably already weakened fish).

If you do succeed in getting a mass die-off of the algae, you'll have to watch your ammonia levels for a bit due to all that decaying matter.


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

I would cut down the photoperiod down to six hours. Also, instead of multiple 20% water changes I'd go with one weekly 50% water change, which will replace a lot more water than multiple smaller water changes. 

What kind of filtration are you using and how often are you cleaning it? It's best to clean the filters on shorter intervals as opposed to doing it monthly or at greater intervals. 

I agree with the others on the increase in ferts and CO2.

I not a big fan of using the H2O2 approach as I've had it melt my Java Moss and affect other plants. But others have had good success with it. To me this just kills the current growth, but does not prevent future growth. You really need to get the tank parameters down such that algae growth does not occur.


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## rjalex (Feb 24, 2018)

Thank you very much everyone.

I will try to gradually up the CO2 a tad hoping my Corys and shrimp don't suffer from that.

Currently I open the CO2 at noon with lights coming up at 2PM. CO2 goes off at 8:30PM and lights at 9:30PM.

Current pH is around 6.5 but do not recall a noticeable difference between CO2 and CO2 off in the 24 hour period.

Would the correct bpm rate be also depend on the type of diffuser? I am using a 60mm ceramic bazooka which yelds very very fine bubbles that get caught in the inflow current and many of which go into the fliter outflow.

Will also raise NO3 and PO4 a tad.

One last thing I'm not sure of: is the EasyLife Carbo the glut solution we're talking about? I am not sure I understand your weekly megadose. How much would you use for a 33 gallon (net) tank? If I interpret your dosage of Easylife Carbo well you'd be dosing approx 100ml ??? All at once or ramping up for a few weeks?

Thank you very much.



Ken Keating1 said:


> I would cut down the photoperiod down to six hours. Also, instead of multiple 20% water changes I'd go with one weekly 50% water change, which will replace a lot more water than multiple smaller water changes.
> 
> What kind of filtration are you using and how often are you cleaning it? It's best to clean the filters on shorter intervals as opposed to doing it monthly or at greater intervals.
> 
> ...


Hi there, thanks for your advice.

I have an external Eheim 2371 Pro 4+ 250T with Siporax instead of the original MechPro plastic tubes.

As a matter of fact I noticed the flow getting weaker about a week ago and cleaned the filter in a bucket of aquarium water. Rinsed the two sponges and the damn bucket became BLACK. A funny thing is that I found a couple of healthy looking shrimp within the lower Siporax layer  They did not let me catch them and hid somewhere within the Siporax. Guess they're still there.

Just very gently shook the "bioballs" always in the water.

When I restarted the filter quite a lot of dirt came out of the inflow ... next time I'll be prepared.


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

@rjalex: How long did you go between cleanings on the filter?


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

rjalex said:


> Would the correct bpm rate be also depend on the type of diffuser?
> 
> One last thing I'm not sure of: is the EasyLife Carbo the glut solution we're talking about? I am not sure I understand your weekly megadose. How much would you use for a 33 gallon (net) tank? If I interpret your dosage of Easylife Carbo well you'd be dosing approx 100ml ??? All at once or ramping up for a few weeks?


BPS only indicates how much CO2 is flowing. Diffusers require varying rates of pressure. If you have a diffuser that needs 40 psi vs one that needs only 10 psi you will still need the same BPS in both to maintain the same CO2 level.

If I recall correctly, the Carbo has the same ppm of glut in it as Excel. So, yes: if it were my tank, I would be - and do - dosing 100 ml per week. One and done. However, as I said, go slow to your comfort zone. Try 40 ml this week and watch. If it kills the hair algae, great. If not, a week from now go to 60 ml, if you are satisfied that your flora and fauna are safe. 100 ml works for my biomass. If it didn't, I'd go higher. I don't know how much higher is needed to kill things in my tank. If you read my post on that link, you will see there are other factors, such as plant mass, that need to be considered in dose size.


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## rjalex (Feb 24, 2018)

Ken Keating1 said:


> @rjalex: How long did you go between cleanings on the filter?


3 months and against the judgement of my friendly local shopkeeper which advised not to touch it until unavoidable.

Bump:


Deanna said:


> BPS only indicates how much CO2 is flowing. Diffusers require varying rates of pressure. If you have a diffuser that needs 40 psi vs one that needs only 10 psi you will still need the same BPS in both to maintain the same CO2 level.
> 
> If I recall correctly, the Carbo has the same ppm of glut in it as Excel. So, yes: if it were my tank, I would be - and do - dosing 100 ml per week. One and done. However, as I said, go slow to your comfort zone. Try 40 ml this week and watch. If it kills the hair algae, great. If not, a week from now go to 60 ml, if you are satisfied that your flora and fauna are safe. 100 ml works for my biomass. If it didn't, I'd go higher. I don't know how much higher is needed to kill things in my tank. If you read my post on that link, you will see there are other factors, such as plant mass, that need to be considered in dose size.


Thank you, will try.

Re the diffuser: yes mine requires between 30 and 40 PSI. The difference in my opinion is how small are the produced bubble since very small ones as in mine raise very slowly to the surface hence have more chance to dissolve.


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

3 months is way to long between cleanings. Try changing at 2 weeks between cleanings. Depending on what you see, you can adjust accordingly, but personally I would not exceed 4 weeks between cleanings as the detritus breaks down and adds excessive nutrients to the tank. I clean mine every two weeks.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Ken Keating1 said:


> 3 months is way to long between cleanings. Try changing at 2 weeks between cleanings. Depending on what you see, you can adjust accordingly, but personally I would not exceed 4 weeks between cleanings as the detritus breaks down and adds excessive nutrients to the tank. I clean mine every two weeks.


...and I do mine with every water change, which is weekly. OP may want to avoid taking advice from that particular LFS.


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## rjalex (Feb 24, 2018)

Ok wil do. I was just made to worry I might disrupt the filter bacterial colonization too much.
Thank you.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

rjalex said:


> Ok wil do. I was just made to worry I might disrupt the filter bacterial colonization too much.
> Thank you.


The BB is pretty robust. Just try to avoid bathing it in chlorinated tap water. Use the water from your tank or de-chlorinated to clean and refill it.


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## smishgibson (Jun 17, 2016)

Deanna said:


> The BB is pretty robust. Just try to avoid bathing it in chlorinated tap water. Use the water from your tank or de-chlorinated to clean and refill it.


I agree. I have found regular water changes and keeping the filter "clean" to be the best preventative against almost all algae.



I do two things to prevent potential crashing of the BB when preforming frequent filter maintenance. 

1. This one is obvious, necessary and mentioned by deanna above. Use dechlorinated or preferably tank water to clean the filter. Never straight tap water.

2. I always have multiple elements in the filter(2 or 3 sponges, plus some kind of sintered bio media). I will clean all of them but one each time. This insures that there is a seed of BB, in case I cleaned the rest of the filter elements too much. I leave a different element "dirty" each week. This is probably 100% unnecessary, but it makes me feel like a crash is less likely.


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

You won't disrupt the bacteria as you'll have plenty enough within the aquarium to compensate. You'll want to clean your tank as much as possible, the more the better.


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## rjalex (Feb 24, 2018)

Thank you everyone. My filter from the top has a coarse sponge, then a finer white sponge, then a layer of "ceramic bioballs", and finally a thick layer of Siporax.
This time I washed the sponges and the bioballs in the aquarium water and spared the Siporax.
Next time according to your suggestions I'll wash the Siporax and the sponges and so on 
The Eheim has a very good system to stop the flow and I don't spill even one drop in changes.
The only drawback is that it's heavy and in a place hard to reach so it's physically slightly demanding.

The 40cc trial with EasyLife Carbo does not seem to have done a lot but neither has left the animals in distress, so next week it'll be a 60cc shot and so on until I reach 100 or see an effect sooner.

Cheers from Rome, Italy


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## rjalex (Feb 24, 2018)

4 days after the 40cc Carbo the algae have become red. Shrimp apparently like it. 
The only plant that seems to have been hit is the Vallisneria.
Let see how this evolves.
Thanks
















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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

You should be removing the dead algae to prevent it from breaking down and adding additional organics to the water column. Otherwise it looks like the treatment is working out well.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

rjalex said:


> 4 days after the 40cc Carbo the algae have become red. Shrimp apparently like it.
> The only plant that seems to have been hit is the Vallisneria.


Vals and anacharis are affected by glut. The once per week, only, seems to allow time for them to recover, as opposed to the relentless pounding they take when dosed daily at recommended levels. I've done my extreme glut dosing techniqu with anacharis and it never succumbed.

Keep us posted as you move into next week. I'll be curious to see how your vals do and to see if the 40 ml was enough to kill all your hair algae.

As @Ken Keating1 pointed out, monitor your NH3 levels at least daily for a few days because you will get a lot of rotting from so much dead algae.


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## rjalex (Feb 24, 2018)

Thank you guys. Very happy I found the courage to follow your wise advice 

I wonder if I should blast again this weekend and whether to use 40cc again or up the nuclear bomb 

In case the zapping should be repeated would you do it AFTER my Saturday's water change (I'll be changing 50 liters of reconsituted RO of the current 125 liters net) or go with the new 40, wait a day and THEN do the water changes?

I'll try to remove the algae but they keep on sticking very tightly to the plants. Tried with a toothbrush hoping they would stick on its bristles. Partially worked.

Ciao


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

rjalex said:


> Thank you guys. Very happy I found the courage to follow your wise advice
> 
> I wonder if I should blast again this weekend and whether to use 40cc again or up the nuclear bomb
> 
> ...


I do it the day after my weekly water change. I think it's important to spread the attacks by a week. I would also move up to 60 ml, if the 40 didn't complete the job. Add 20 ml per week to the previous weeks' dose until you either reach a 100 ml dose or get nearly complete annihilation. In my tank, I know the equivalent of 100 ml dose works, but my params and biomass are surely different from yours.


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## rjalex (Feb 24, 2018)

Deanna said:


> I do it the day after my weekly water change. I think it's important to spread the attacks by a week. I would also move up to 60 ml, if the 40 didn't complete the job. Add 20 ml per week to the previous weeks' dose until you either reach a 100 ml dose or get nearly complete annihilation. In my tank, I know the equivalent of 100 ml dose works, but my params and biomass are surely different from yours.


Thank you very much. So today I'll do a 50 liters change and dose my ferts and tomorrow I'll zap with 40 or 60 ml of Carbo.

What would you regard as a "complete job" ? With the current 40ml dosing all visible hair algae have turned red. They still cling strongly to the leaves they have infested and I tried to remove them with a soft toothbrush but they'll just stay stuck on the leaves. No sign of further growth or spread of the algae though.

So paraphrasing an old song : Should I stay (40ml) or should I go (60ml) ??

Take care.

Bump:


Ken Keating1 said:


> You should be removing the dead algae to prevent it from breaking down and adding additional organics to the water column. Otherwise it looks like the treatment is working out well.


Hi there Ken, thank you.

Aside from the algae on the glass which I remove with a sponge or those on simple leaves on stem plants which I can remove easily just by snipping the whole leaf, I am not succeeding in removing the reddened algae from the moss. Tips? Tricks? (tried with a soft toothbrush).


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## rjalex (Feb 24, 2018)

This is my plant load a couple of months back[emoji16]
 








Now it's pretty much doubled

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## rjalex (Feb 24, 2018)

Today









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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

If this was my tank I would just cut out the affected moss branches and give the whole plant a nice trim. *My moss* grows fast, so in a week or two after trimming it would look normal. You could try to remove using tweezers, but that would be too slow and tedious for me.

I believe your issue with algae was caused by not cleaning your filter often enough. Try cleaning at intervals no greater than every two weeks. For canister's I've found that it's easier to dump the bio media into a mesh bag, swish it around in a bucket of aquarium water, and pour the media out of the *mesh bag* into the canister. Using the mesh bag makes it easier as I don't have to pick up all the little pieces of media out of the bucket. Also, instead of doing a couple of 20% water changes per week, do a single 40 to 50% water change. A larger, single water change will replaced much more water that multiple smaller water changes. Also clean out all hoses that have gunk built up in them. In general, keep the tank as clean as possible and don't over feed the fish.

The photo of your tank from a couple of months ago looks good, all plants look healthy. Please post photos on this thread in a couple of weeks after the algae is gone, it would be great to see your progress.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

rjalex said:


> Thank you very much. So today I'll do a 50 liters change and dose my ferts and tomorrow I'll zap with 40 or 60 ml of Carbo.
> 
> What would you regard as a "complete job" ? With the current 40ml dosing all visible hair algae have turned red. They still cling strongly to the leaves they have infested and I tried to remove them with a soft toothbrush but they'll just stay stuck on the leaves. No sign of further growth or spread of the algae though.
> 
> So paraphrasing an old song : Should I stay (40ml) or should I go (60ml) ??


Oh! Then your hair algae is all dead (red is dead). That's what I would call a "complete job." The treatment worked. The 40 ml was all that was needed in your case. No need to repeat the treatment unless the hair algae returned. I do it weekly because I have very high light (ranges from 55 to 135 PAR at the substrate) for a very long time (12 hours), but you are nowhere close, so the hair algae should be more easily controlled by health plants.

Just follow @Ken Keating1 suggestions for removing the dead algae.


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

You posted the recent photo as I was typing. Yes, there was quite a bit more growth. It's densely planted, which is going to be much more prone to keeping detrius. I would go through and thin out your plants and trim. It'll allow them to grow better and healthier as there would be better water movement around the plants, plus it'll allow better water flow which means detrius would be able to make it back to the filter and removed during cleaning.


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## rjalex (Feb 24, 2018)

Thank you very much to both of you. If you ever drop by here in Rome, I'll try to offer a cappuccino and insider tips in retunr


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

rjalex said:


> Thank you very much to both of you. If you ever drop by here in Rome, I'll try to offer a cappuccino and insider tips in retunr


We'll also want to take a look at your tank!


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## rjalex (Feb 24, 2018)

Dear friends after a couple of weeks of a pristine clean tank I see subtle instances of the dreaded grey algae returning.
Values all seem quite right but if they deviate they do so towards the low values since I'm working so much in real life that I am not able to measure or fertilize as much as I should.
I am keeping the photo period at 7 hours but am tempted to raise it at 8 since I see a lot of pearling only in the last hour or so.
Am also keeping 30% water changes per week.
Would an UV lamp inline on filter intake do anything?
Should I try amother easylife Carbo 'bombing"?
Thanks

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