# Bulkhead/In-line Replenishment Snag...



## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

For a long time I've been lusting after a form of water replenishment that doesn't require overflows. Something that would provide not only top-off, but could eliminate large water changes. For instance, if my math is right, if I had something that could automatically drain then add just 1 gallon to my 75g, 7 times a day, I would be turning over water at the same rate as a weekly 50% water change - no more water changes! And auto top-off just happens as a byproduct.

Great idea IMO - but apparently tough to accomplish without some kind of overflow.

When I set up my current tank, I drilled bulkheads in the bottom, and left one unused to help with this problem. I went and bought a couple of these pressure switches  to help. The idea was easy...

Leave a bulkhead open, connected to the pressure switch. The switch would be configured in a normally-open configuration, and would only close when the pressure (water level) was below the desired height (pressure). Then it's just a matter of putting a normally closed solenoid in-line, and on a timer to drain water returning to the tank for a few minutes. When that's done, have another timer power up the pressure switch, which would detect a low pressure condition, and would turn on a pump from a reservoir until the appropriate water level switched it off.

I bought two of the pressure switches so I could put them in series, so that if either of them thought the water was high enough, the new water shuts off. Redundance seemed like a good idea. :tongue: 

I've started testing these switches, and they do a pretty good job. In a test setup, over many trials, their variance in shutting off at a consistent water height is about 1/4". Good enough if for me, if used redundantly.

I'm writing because I've run into a snag though...

The pressure switches detect a "full" condition very well. The problem is state change. Once they detect the "full" condition, they open the circuit, and the circuit remains open until the pressure drops much, much lower. In my case, they won't close again until half the water is out of the tank, and then they faithfully turn on until they are within 1/4" (+/-) of the desired water height.

Bummer. So much for losing a gallon at a time, and letting these things control the top off.

I've come up with a solution, but it's so complicated, I'm not even going to post it. Too prone to failure. Any ideas? I'm stumped.


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

So what you're looking for is a way for Mr. Bass to flush the toilet once a day? :icon_lol: Sorry, couldn't resist. 

I know one of old-time members of the SFBAAPS has a fully automated water changing system plumbed in. But his is a full out water change, not a mini one that you're looking for.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Yeah, thanks. This would would do a water change too. The amount of pressure drop to get these switches to switch state (or reset) is almost exactly the number of inches of water my tank loses on a 50% water change - by coincidence.

But if I used this just for water change, the auto-top-off capability goes away. And then you have to get involved with using Prime - so it's not really unattended. With the smaller changes there are lots of possibilities, like no prime at all due to the small amounts. Or having a small (20g?) aging tank hooked up to the house water supply.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

Try a peristaltic doseing pump that can handle two lines. Set one in, one out so that the volume is conserved and volume is set by the time opperated. 50 % a day may not be bad though if your water is cheap...


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

BlueRam said:


> Try a peristaltic dosing pump that can handle two lines. Set one in, one out so that the volume is conserved and volume is set by the time opperated. 50 % a day may not be bad though if your water is cheap...


That's a great idea Blueram. But you loose auto top-off. But it is devilishly simple, and tempting...

But idea about more frequent water change is an idea though. Water is cheap here. And truth be told, in the winter (when it's so dry inside due the heaters) top-off isn't needed my often than 3 times a week. I'll bet 3 50% water changes wouldn't wast much more water than using the massively wasteful python I'm using today. 

Would causes massive swings in ferts though. But I could set a different timing for my dosing pumps on "water change" days. Hmmm.....


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

I thougt the dosing pump does "top off" service.

You might be able to rig somethink like this in the cypress stump:
http://www.bluelineaquatics.com/products/topoff_system/

My sink is lower than my tank, so I use* the python to start and then turn off the tap and let it go. *now I just mouth-syphon and dump the open end into the tub which is even lower...

Very expensive example:
http://www.kc-denmark.dk/public_html/Small pumps for deep sea/Peristaltic pumps/Peristaltic_pump.htm
Check medical surplus...


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

BlueRam said:


> I thougt the dosing pump does "top off" service.


Not for me... and my hat's off to people trying to make that work. My evaporation rate is way to inconsistent for me to try that. All depends on the heat, and that varies significantly.





BlueRam said:


> You might be able to rig somethink like this in the cypress stump:
> http://www.bluelineaquatics.com/products/topoff_system/


Seen those. Thanks! What I'm trying to do now is quite similar, except I've got a water pressure sensor at the bottom of a tube that passes through the bottom of the tank, rather than something over the top with an air pressure sensing on top. I suppose if I had set it up initially, I could get one of those bulkhead airline connectors to make that work. But messing with bulkheads now means tearing down the tank. Not an option for a year or so.





BlueRam said:


> My sink is lower than my tank, so I use* the python to start and then turn off the tap and let it go.


Not an option for me I'm afraid... sink's too high.





BlueRam said:


> Very expensive example:
> http://www.kc-denmark.dk/public_html/Small pumps for deep sea/Peristaltic pumps/Peristaltic_pump.htm


Yeah, massively expensive! The dual perstaltic idea makes me uncomfortable, due to the "some of the water that just went in a second ago, is in the water going out now" problem. Kind of clouds the question of just how much turnover you are really seeing.



Thanks for the ideas though. Any ideas on how to get what I've got workind? How to get beyond that 10" of water state-cycling problem?


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

Can you set one (or a pair) as high and the other low. Something like a drop of 1" turns the pump on until the high (the one you have rigged) turns it off? 

Or are you saying it takes 10" for the high to sense.

You might be able to pump water in and use the high to open the bulkhead?


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

First, they can set to be either normally open, or normally closed. In fact, you could put two circuits on one at the same time, and when an appropriate pressure was reached, the open circuit would close, and the other the reverse. They are pretty flexible. And pretty accurate.

Here's the problem...

Let's say it knows that the pressure threshold has not been exceeded (water column not high enough) and it closed a circuit, turning on a pump to put water in the tank. The pump will remain on until the appropriate height is reached, then the switch opens the circuit, and the pump turns off.

On the next day, you drain a bit of water out of the tank, and assume the switch will close the circuit again and start the pump to replenish water again. Nope. Once that that pressure sensor opened the circuit (the day before) it will not close it again until the water drops about 10"!

So yeah, I've figured out a kludgey plumbing mechanism to fool it into thinking that has happened. But it includes solenoids, drains, and just way too much wackiness. There has to be a simpler way. 

I've thought about using both of them, as you suggest, one as a high, the other as a low... but it doesn't really work, I don't think. No matter what you rig one to do, turn on or off, at a given pressure, you still have to lower the pressure about 10", where it switches to the opposite state (off to on, or on to off) to get it to do that trick again.

It could be the solution to my problem is a refund.


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## JimmyYahoo (Aug 14, 2005)

Float Switches! 

One (or two for redundancy) wired normaly open at the top of the tank that activates when the water level drops. Instead of relying on volume and pressure the switch would activate simply upon water heighth. Auto top offs too!

Then possibly you could use your pressure switch on a timer that would drain water to a certain level. As long as you could get water out of the tank faster than you could get it in you wouldnt be wasting too much water.


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## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

JimmyYahoo said:


> Float Switches!
> 
> One (or two for redundancy) wired normaly open at the top of the tank that activates when the water level drops. Instead of relying on volume and pressure the switch would activate simply upon water heighth. Auto top offs too!
> 
> Then possibly you could use your pressure switch on a timer that would drain water to a certain level. As long as you could get water out of the tank faster than you could get it in you wouldnt be wasting too much water.


Yup...gnatster has a similar method employed on one of his tanks. He has his sump setup with a float switch so when he drains it it automatically fills up with water from his RO unit until it hits the switch again.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Yup. Thanks guys. Float switches are the obvious answer. I suppose what's not so obvious to everyone is that I can't use them. I'm on an aggressive campaign to eliminate anything that hangs over the side of the tank. And I want any equipment in the tank to be invisible. That's why I'm going to all this silly pressure switch trouble.

And a float switch either has wiring hanging over the side (against the rules for me) or it could be threaded up through a bulkhead, but even then, it will be hanging out at the surface for all to see (again, against the rules for me).

Thanks for the suggestions though. It would be a lot easier if I'd back off on the aesthetics!


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## JimmyYahoo (Aug 14, 2005)

aha, seemed to simple. Lookin at your tank now i see the clean look your goin for, and nice job of attaining that as well, thats a great lookin tank.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks JimmyYahoo!


*WOW! I may have just figured something out...*
I could stick a "T" in the pressurized water line just over the switch. Then hook a little air-pump up to the T. Just before powering up the switch (to turn on a tank filling pump), I could turn on the air pump for minute, just long enough to fill the tube with air, and hopefully reset the switch.

Kinda kludgey, and would send a few bubbles out the manifold, but it might work!


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## zzapd (Sep 15, 2005)

*Pressure switch range*

If the switch is resetting after a ten inch drop that is pretty good for a switch of that type. The 10 inch drop is only a change of .4 psi. A quality 
industrial switch that costs about 300 will only get you down to a five inch
dead band.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

zzapd said:


> If the switch is resetting after a ten inch drop that is pretty good for a switch of that type. The 10 inch drop is only a change of .4 psi. A quality
> industrial switch that costs about 300 will only get you down to a five inch
> dead band.


Thanks! I was worried that I had bought something cheap. I guess I really didn't know what I was doing (again!), and am finding out along the way!

"Dead band" huh? That's what that range of pressure is between the two different spots where it switches state?

And it could be a 12" drop. I only did a quick measure once I figured out it was about 1/2 the height of my 75g.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

Going for my merit badge for beating an idea to death:  

This is the float valve I kinda had in mind:
http://www.automatedaquariums.com/lv_plc.htm

The idea being that a well placed hole drilled in the cypress and routed either at the very back (or through a bulk head) would provide ~1/2 accuracy.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks BlueRam. I've seen those, and think they are a reasonable value solution. (I bought the better of my two peristaltic from those guys)

Problem is the "through the bulkhead" thing. Nothing else is going through a bulkhead without tearing down the tank. So I figure that's out now. And I'm kind of adverse to putting equipment in the tank anyway. That's why I find that new thread of Tom Barr's (about the CO2 microbubbles), it's all leading back to more crap in the tank. I don't like hiding stuff. I'd rather have as little as possible to hide.

Also, the range is kinda high. It's got that "dead band" that zzapd mentioned of 1.5 inches. Just like mine, it has to drop 1.5 inches before it know there's been a change (mine drops 10-12 though!). With 1/2 inch variance, that could be a range of 2.5 inches. Not terrible. But I'd like to get it tighter if possible.

But thanks for beating that horse!


I've got to try the "air pump" on a "T" that I mentioned a few posts ago. It just might work...


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

I could post this elsewhere, but I think the reactor is not a problem. From what I gather, the mechanism of getting CO2 dissolved changes throughout the photo period. For example, early, CO2 goes in just fine, however, at saturation, bubbles form in the reactor. Theses can either stay there (they make some noise), be blown out large bubbles (mine runs ~5* tilt. I can purge gas mid day), or the bubbles can be chopped up and run through again. I am happy with my reactor and am in the process of confirming Tom's observations. Not quite a full fledged idea yet, look for more in the proper post.

Your tank looks great!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks pal. But the tank does NOT look great. It's got algae bad. What it does apparently is photograph well. I'm working real hard to remain calm on the algae issue. The BGA is back, and making me insane! My CO2 is in the forties, and most of the plants pearl everyday, so growth is good. It's just good for the algae too...

And to further the "I should post this somewhere else" theme...

I'm in full agreement about the CO2. I'm in the process of assembling an in-line device to inject those microbubbles in to my return line before getting blown into the tank. Parts on order now.

But if this idea that dissolving stops after some level of saturation is hit (30 ppm?) is not correct, then I just wasted some more money. So I look forward to your confirmation.

Now that the money is spent, it'd be nice to not waste time too.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Steve you made it tough on us when you built this piece of art without a sump.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Yeah Sean, _all in-line_ is a major PITA. That was my compromise, everything being a PITA in order to get stuff out of the tank.

Next tank will have a durso w/sump underneath - the compromise will be always having to hide the overflow. But everything else will get MUCH easier! roud:


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

Could you put the float swich in your co2 reactor, when the pressure drops your co2 will (at least mine does) push out more gas due to the reduced pressure from the water level and trigger the float switch.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Lump - I gotta give it to you... THAT'S thinking out of the box! My reactor is not clear, it's white. But even still, when the CO2 is off, there should be no bubble there. And when it's on, the size of the bubble should vary with the speed the needle valve has been set to blow bubbles. And it the rate of change will vary as the water flow through the reactor varies with equipment added/removed in-line, and with the filter gunking up.

But it's an interesting idea.

I've pondered doing something similar for a while... taking an in-line container with a pressurized air pocket in the top and putting a float valve in it. But that has a whole lot of problems. Getting it pressurized, maintaining constant pressure, the size of the pocket remaining the same (not being subject to out-gassing or absorption).

It is a path that could be pursued. Thanks for the suggestion - it was certainly innovative. But I'm just not that courageous.


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## jgc (Jul 6, 2005)

Not that I would want to build this beast – but…

You could use a pressurized chamber under your tank to remotely connect the float valve.

Oh latter thought - you would ultimately be trying to build a supper sensitive pressure sensor - no bets on if it would work.









Ok, figured out a way to possibly make a more sensitive switch, do not have time to draw it out though. Same basic concept as before, but with 2 differences. Increase volume of presure chamber - but decrease the diameter of the tube where the float switch is.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

I think that's BRILLIANT jgc! But I don't think it would work...

Atmospheric pressure variations outside the tank would cause the measured level inside the chamber to swing - possibly significantly. It would take someone better informed than I to figure out how much.

If that variance proved to be small, I'd build it. Then the only thing that would have to be overcome is some sort of adjustment mechanism. Something to ensure that the float was sitting at the right level...

Maybe a very sensitive gas escape valve at the top, and a drain valve at the bottom, and a clear chamber, would be enough to allow you to visually align the water level with the float valve.

Great idea! I wish I know how much atmospheric pressure would affect that.


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## jgc (Jul 6, 2005)

Yes, I know I hacked the design off a barmeter.

Actually though, think Boyles law will give me even greater grief. Suspect the water presure will vary a lot more than atmosheric. But heat the air in the presurized chamber - hehe you have a thermometer as well.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

jgc said:


> Yes, I know I hacked the design off a barmeter.


If you knew it wouldn't work, then why, pray tell, did you suggest it? You made a nice diagram and everything.  That's a lot of trouble to go to for a bogus suggestion.

I've got better things to do than figure out why something won't work... I'm looking for something that _will_.


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

I have no idea how this would effect the efficency of your wc, but have you considered an surface scimmer type tube (located behind your cypress stump of course) and just had a steady regulated inflow of fresh water from the unused bulkhead?


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Yes - thanks - I have. There's all kind of cool junk I could hang in the tank behind that big stump. But the stump is only going to be around as long as this scape, in all liklihood - call it a year or so. I'm looking for a semi-permanent solution.

So I'm trying to find a solution that will work with no equipment in the tank - tough I know!


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## Matak (Aug 10, 2005)

Steve, it could be that I don't grasp the situation, but could you do something simple like this?: 










The 'sump' tube would just be a 2" tube mounted out of site at the back of the tank, plumbed into the main tank.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Wow Matak. I feel bad that you went to all the trouble to draw a picture, and I've got to say that won't work for me at all. Sorry. :icon_frow 

It would work. But I'm placing some rather ridiculous constraints on myself. I'm not going to do it if:

1) It introduces any more hardware in the tank.
2) It introduces any more hardware outside of the tank.

I know I could hide stuff in back, but I don't always use a background.

At the moment I've got two lily pipes coming over the side of the tank and they make me NUTS. If I could eliminate those, there would be no hardware visible in my tank at all. There are 5 bulkhead holes drilled in the bottom (not the back, though I know that is common), and all the outflow water pours down two of them. One more is plumbed, and I wanted to use to test water pressure. The final two are held in reserve for such time that I tackle some kind of undergravel manifold to provide my water return.

Maybe you can understand now why I'm knocking myself out trying to get these pressure switches to do the job. But thanks for going to the trouble of making the pic! :wink:


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## Matak (Aug 10, 2005)

Thanks Steve, wasn't much of a problem to draw it out. What advantages do you see in drilling through the bottom rather than the sides? I want to know as I will probably drill about 5 holes in my DIY plywood tank this week.

BTW, have you ever seen a water level & how it works? Could you use that principle for a remote sensor? (remote as in a completely different room at tank level)


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Matak - the only significant advantage I know about bottom vs. back bulkheads is the ability to plumb things and walk completely around the tank and see no equipment. That's not an objective for many people though.

And yes, thanks, I'm up on most techniques for water level detection. And almost all of them require either an over flow (translated - equipment in or on the tank) or equipment at water level somewhere else. Thus my problem.  

That's OK though. If I figure out a unique solution then great! And if not, dragging that python across the room once a week is my sacrifice to aesthetic considerations.


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

ok, why not just rig afloat switch wired to a manual shutoff to something that will clip on the glass holding it in place. flip the switch and walk away while it changes water for you and remove it and place it in the stand when done?


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

lumpyfunk said:


> ok, why not just rig afloat switch wired to a manual shutoff to something that will clip on the glass holding it in place. flip the switch and walk away while it changes water for you and remove it and place it in the stand when done?


Excellent compromise - nothing permanently in view, just in view during maintenance. I certainly cannot argue that all my work to do everything in line has eliminated people having to seem me with my arms in the tank, scissors and tweezers in hand! :icon_bigg IMO this is no different.

The only thing that hangs me up is that little word manual. I was hoping to create something fully automatic.

Good try though. roud:


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## jgc (Jul 6, 2005)

have not come up with a good solution, but did come up with another problem  

I would be tempted to use strait glass tubes (with holes on one side - like a spay bar), plumbed up from the bulhead for intake and exhaust of the filter - nothing over the side. Just imagine it would look very nice. A third tube could then maintain your water level - but that defeates your goals I know.


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## Garratt (Aug 2, 2005)

I came across this interesting thread while looking for a solution for my own sump project. Why not turn the problem around and detect the waterlevel in the sump. Toilet cisterns regulate the inflow using a floater connected to a ball valve. By keeping the level constant in the sump, -by refilling the sump with water from the tank, you will also keep the level constant in the tank. The downside is that evaporation will show up in the tank and not in the sump, just like it does in a closed system.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Wow. Been away from this thread for awhile, and have almost given up on the problem. But...

*jgc *- that's good thinking really IMO. And I have the problems with the 1st and 2nd tubes licked. Kind of. And the third tube is drilled. And the third tube, which is drilled _could _be used to add water. But the problem isn't getting the water in. The problem is about detecting when to add, and when to stop adding, without tossing in a bunch of visible equipment.

*Garratt *- my number of posts belies the fact that I'm really a newbie. Just barely about to begin my third year at this stuff and still learning. I say that because I've gone to great trouble and expense to create as sophisticated an in-line solution as possible. The one thing that remains elusive is in-line replenishment (and level detection).

But IMO you are right on target on the solution. The more I look at my complex plumbing (which has never failed BTW), and as I continue to struggle to deal with auto-replenishment in an in-line system, the more I begin to believe that sumps are the way to go. So rather than focusing on silly stuff like this, maybe I should be focusing on how to keep a bulkheaded overflow as inconspicuous as possible, and do as you suggest.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Steve,

Is there an unused bulkhead on this tank? I can't remember how many holes you had drilled, and then plumbed. I might have an idea.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Sean I've got 5 drilled holes, each with a bulkhead. Unused bulkheads are capped off, under the substrate. Two holes are used as outflows, and one I have a tube sticking up a few inches above the substrate. I intended to use this as a "pressure detection" hole. But I can't get that to work, as documented here. And on top of that, there are two other unused, capped off bulkheads.

BTW - I never intended to use 5 at once, but by spreading them around I figured I could accommodate variety of possible aquascapes, and still hit a couple in plants... even a fully walk around tank.

So what's the idea?


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Its how we monitor water levels in reservoirs at hydro electric projects. Have you ever heard of a stilling well?

I have a Tsunami auto topoff that I picked up on Reef Central. Using PVC you could make an exterior stilling well with one of your free bulkheads, put the sensor in it and detect the loss of water to evaporation. The pressure sensor reacts to falling water level, and turns on a pump or powerhead until the water level rises back up. If you feed the reservoir pump line into the PVC stilling well back to the opening in the tank and put a small strainer at the opening in the tank you will have a self cleaning system.


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## daFrimpster (Mar 7, 2005)

This may sound silly but what about a toilet like flushing mechanism? The height of the stand pipe would determine how much water drained and once the water flow was reduced the flapper valve at the bottom of the stand pipe would, well, flap and close allowing the float switch to open the incoming supply of fresh water. This might sound even crazier but some of the toilets have a float on a long arm which would look a bit strange in your tank!! But others have a float that is donut like and goes over the toilet stand pipe. If you could pull of an inconspicuous version of that it might be OK. Then all you need is a time that opens your flapper valve at the appropriate interval. Heck you could even add a toilet flushing handle to the front of your hood!  Just a thought...


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## Garratt (Aug 2, 2005)

A toilet flushing mechanism valve was what I had in mind, but a system with sensors will also work. The floater/ball valve is simple and proven technology, the KISS approach is usually the best way to go. My idea was to put the floater in the sump and couple the valve to the underside of a bulkhead. The point is that no standpipe or sensors are needed in the tank! An added benefit is that there will be no CO2 loss.

As a safety measure I think it is a good idea to have sensors in the sump connected to a shut off the return from the tank if the water level is either to low or to high in the sump. The pump should of course be shut of, or even better be redirected to the return side of the sump to keep the bioculture alive.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

You guys aren't making bad suggestions, but don't forget, Steve doesn't have a sump on this tank and he doesn't want ANY equipment in the tank, it is an open top, brace-less, tank. He's looking at putting a reservoir with top off water under the tank and wants it to automatically maintain the water level in the aquarium. 

I, however, do have sumps and now I have to stop and consider what you are taking about for my own purposes. roud:


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks folks for the suggestions. But I've got some rather extreme objectives as Sean indicated.

Sean - I looked up Stilling Wells in Google, and just can't find a good diagram. So I'm not sure what one is exactly...

Is it just a an external chamber of some form, connected by piping so that the water level is the same in the stilling well and the main body of water? Like a tube coming out of one of my bulkheads, snaking to some other room somewhere going up to a tank whose surface is the same level as the tank? And measure in that tank, triggering appropriate filling/draining in the main tank electro mechanically, based on levels sensed in the external tank?

If so, there is no room for such.

Is that what you are talking about?


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## Lorenceo (Jan 29, 2004)

Have just read through this thread, and this idea came to me.
You willing to drill a hole in the wall Steve? :hihi:
I think it is what Sean is talking about too.









I'm pretty sure it would work. You could even add a tap or something to the box outside to do your waterchanges.
Like so:









Edit: If you put the tap at the waterchange level, you could have a solenoid in the pipe to the drain.
When the solenoid is open, the tank drains to the set level and stops. 
When the solenoid is closed the float valve brings the water level in the tank and "stilling well" back up and stops at max.

HTH.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks for the diagram Lorenceo! You should not have gone to so much trouble. But thanks!

Unfortunately what you drew is one of the very first things I thought of. It is elegant because of the natural balancing of the two water levels. Pretty simple too from a technological point of view.

I'm willing to cut through a wall... nothing that a little spackling and paint can't undo. But I can't use a solution like that because the only adjacent walls to the tank go to our dining room (not!) and our deck (also no good). Now I could run a very long tube under the floor to some other room in the same level of the house, but no room on that floor can accommodate such a contraption (Living Room, Kitchen, Bathroom). Got no place for it. And if I put it under it (semi-basement), or a floor above (living space), it won't work.

So thanks for the diagram. I was afraid that was what sean was talking about because I just cannot do that.

Rats!


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Way back in this thread it was stated that very small warwe changes 7 times a day would eliminate the need for Prime. Not true. Chloramine, unlike chlorine, does not just harmlessly dissipate in an hour or so. In fact its stability is why it is used. It is the total amount of introduced water that needs to be considered. So, if you add a gallon 7 times a day, you need enough Prime to treat 7 gallons of water. The dosing pump idea would work if you added another pump to dose the Prime.


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## Lorenceo (Jan 29, 2004)

No trouble at all.
If you don't want to look at it on the outside of your house, you could put it in the wall. (although this would be a lot more trouble)
Doesn't matter what the size of the container really is, just as long as its at the right level.
You would need to have some sort of safety precaution in it, like an overflow to a drain incase the float valve sticks.
It could be done, but IMO, you are better off syphoning once a week.
Also, instead of wasting water with the python pump, just let it syphon out onto the garden, the plants seem to love waterchange water.


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## csf (Jul 10, 2003)

I had a float switch set up with a rain bird water sprinkler system timer. The water would drop, it would fill up.

I was thinking about automating it with a 2nd water sprinkler solenoid, but I never got around to plumbing the outlet.

At that point, you could simply wire up the outlet valve in-line with any bulkhead plumbing. I was going to have it set-up to drain after my plumbed canisters, mainly to add some pressure to the output. I pulled out my overflow, just have a drilled tank now.

Set-up the out-flow solenoid with a light timer and determine how much and how often you want it to drain. Then the float switch will turn on the in-flow. I just had it plumbed up the back of the tank and into the top. It was a great set-up (the top off). I could dip out buckets of water for house plants or a small, quick water change and not worry about equal buckets of filling.

Your system looks pretty slick as well.

The solenoids were about $10-15 apiece. Float switches were cheap from ebay, maybe $1-2 apiece. A 24vac transformer for the solenoids. You could do a more complex sprinker system timer ($20-$100, depending on how trickey), or just simply have the light timer turn one on and off automatically.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Hoppy *- Thanks for the feedback on the Prime. I suppose I was making a bad assumptions around using (or not using) Prime. Thanks for straightening me out. That can really complicate things then... it means either only using this for large changes, like 50%, and dosing the whole tank (in-line with dosing pump as you suggested), or needing a reservoir to hold the smaller amounts of replacement water that itself would have to be "primed". Bummer.

*Lorenceo *- Good point about the size. You are right! It could be a teacup, with a float valve, couldn't it? Cool. That could go in a wall! Not sure if I want to do that, but it could work. As to the drain, that sounds like a good precaution, but the plumbing could be tough. Might be easier, and almost as safe to buy multiple float valves, set up so that any of them opens the water pumping circuit. And yes, I would discharge the water outside.

*csf *- Thanks for the suggestions. Sounds like you had a cool system.:thumbsup: My problem is though... I don't want a visible float valve, which leads us back to the _multi-floatvalve teacup in the wall_.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Steve,

I honestly think you've painted yourself into a corner.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

SCMurphy said:


> Steve,
> 
> I honestly think you've painted yourself into a corner.


Agreed Sean. So what are the lessons learned?

1) If you don't want visible equipment in the tank, and cannot accommodate a stilling well as an out-of-the-tank water level detection mechanism, then through bulkhead auto replenishment is tough problem.

2) One way or another any auto replenishment system should have some sort of reservoir to facilitate mixing in Prime, unless you are willing to dose the entire tank volume.

3) Pressure sensitive switches (like the two I bought) may be accurate enough to detect a fill-line stop point, but the switches require cycling to change state. I.E. Once the tank fills up and the switch opens the circuit, then the circuit will not close again until the pressure is dropped dramatically. In my case that's emptying half the tank.​
Thanks for all the help folks. I suspect this goose is cooked.


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## fishinsane (Sep 28, 2005)

Here is a quick idea if you already have a bulkhead in the bottom of the aquarium. Connect an inline sprinkler valve to it and put it on a timer so that when the timer turns on the valve opens and gravity feeds the water to wherever you want (although on second thought with just gravity it may not have enough water pressure to properly operate), but it is worth a try if someone wants to give it a whirl. On the fill side you can use a fill valve designed for larger ornamental fountians... think Bellagio (sp). They operate by two small metal prongs (tank drilling required) that are submerged below the water and a small electrical current is passed between them. As soon as the water level drops below the top prong a solenoid opens allowing water to fill. These are very sensitive (I have seen an 1/8 inch drop cause them to kick on and off), and the sensitivity level can be changed via a rheostat. Just don't know if the small electrical current would hurt fish. I can stick my hands on one and have no idea there is electricity running through it, but I have not stuck a voltmeter on one yet to see how much current they produce, although they may be self grounding so a current my not ever be present.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Ok, after reading through this thread I have an idea that should work for Your application--no stuff in the tank.

2 items go into the tank: 1) OutFlow Strainer which screws into the outflow bulkhead--probably the same as You have for Your canister filter outflow. 2) Tubing adapter/reducer  which screws into the Inflow Bulkhead -the 3/4"MPT x 1/4" reducer would probably work, but a 1/8" or 3/16" like folks use to inject C02 into an External DIY C02 Reactor might be needed for greater control.

Basically, the outflow is through one of your spare bulkheads and can be gravity fed and controlled by a Sprinkler Controller and solenoid(s)-(2 InLine for Backup Safety). Sprinkler Controller turns on for 1 minute (minimum increments) opening the sprinkler solenoid then closes. And the out-flow is restricted by the 1/4", 3/16" or 1/8" Adapter/Reducer on the drainage end of the outflow plumbing-for greater control over the output quantity. After setup You do Your tests to determine how many minutes to keep the circuit open for: 1?, 2? 3?, etc.

The harder part is putting the water back in without creating a disaster. Input water can be plumbed into Your other spare bulkhead (or even T-eed into the OutFlow****) and again controlled with the same Sprinkler Controller and 2 sprinkler solenoids InLine For Safety. The water flow entering the tank is reduced by the 1/8" Adapter/Reducer on the InFlow Bulkhead. With a 1/8" Adapter/Reducer on the inside tank bulkhead You should be able to control the input flow to more than manageable levels.

Example Controller that would work

The Sprinkler Controller is necessary because sprinkler solenoids operate on 12-24volts and the Plug-in Transfomer of the Controller will take care of that for You. Plus 1 4-circuit Controller is much cheaper than any other options. Additionally, these components are designed to work together.

Diagram of System









The Prime problem should be solvable with another dosing pump or one of the DIY Auto-dosing systems like I use. The benefits of Prime should be good for 24 hrs, but You may need to check on that: If so, the Prime doser could be set to dose the daily dose of Prime, say, 15 minutes before the first scheduled water change, or just once every 24 hrs if You are going to continuously cycle your water changes 24/7. If it needs to be dosed more often then just set the auto doser to dose more often--many today allow 7 cycles/day.

From the Seachem FAQs Website:

"... Prime dissipates from your system within 24 hours."

Prime FAQs-3rd Question

4 Cicuit Sprinkler Controller $25-$75, 3-4 Sprinkler Solenoids $10-$15each, an Air-Pump for DIY Auto-Doser and some misc. fittings.

****If You T-eed Your InFlow into Your Outflow You would only need to put the OutFlow Strainer into Your tank and this system would only use one Bulkhead. You would need to Tee into Your OutFlow with 1/8"-3/16" input so that Your flow was already reduced, because the strainer would not be useful for reducing the input flow. Your OutFlow Solenoid(s) would be closed--forcing the new fresh water up into the tank. Of Course, You would need to set Your OutFlow Timing and InFlow timing a few minutes apart.....

Let me know if You have any questions.....


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

fishinsane said:


> Connect an inline sprinkler valve to it and put it on a timer so that when the timer turns on the valve opens and gravity feeds the water to wherever you want (although on second thought with just gravity it may not have enough water pressure to properly operate), but it is worth a try if someone wants to give it a whirl. On the fill side you can use a fill valve designed for larger ornamental fountians... think Bellagio (sp). They operate by two small metal prongs (tank drilling required) that are submerged below the water and a small electrical current is passed between them. As soon as the water level drops below the top prong a solenoid opens allowing water to fill.


Thanks for the suggestion, but I've got no problems on the drain side. I can tap off an unused bulkhead, or even off my in-line water processing loop. And on the fill side I have the same options. And on either the drain or fill side, if the pressure is insufficient, it can be augmented with an in-line pump.

The problem is detecting when the tank is full, to cut off the fill process. And while your Bellagio sounds nice, it is equipment in the tank. So is unsuitable for this application. Sorry.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Naja002 *- I'm humbled and amazed at the amount of time you put into your post, and the thought you've put into this problem. Thank you! What you have drawn is not at all dissimilar to what I've envisioned. And the suggestion of a sprinkler controller is great. Thanks.

But I don't think it will work, and here's why...

1) _Prime _- I have real trouble with the concept of dosing so much Prime. I'm not aware of anyone doing that (dosing the entire tank 1 or more times a day). So I'm not sure it won't have unknown consequences. That's a lot of chemical treatment. Sure, I understand they say it dissipates within 24 hours. But what does it break down into? And does that accumulate? And can fish tolerate being so consistently bombarded with Prime. Without more information, I'm uncomfortable with such frequent full-tank dosing.

2) _Lack of reliable measurement_ - I am using practically the same drain now that you pointed out. Thanks. And flow reduction should be simple enough. Problem is what you are proposing requires rather precise control over water flow in both directions. If something interferes with the outflow (something clogging the drain) I risk putting too much water back in. And the lower risk is if the water pressure forcing water back changes. No, for regular and dependable changes, I believe something must detect a full tank condition, and shut off the in-flow. The outflow could be timed, as you suggest. But the in-flow is where the risk is, and I am not comfortable depending on...
A) Did the water flow out as fast as I needed it to?
B) Was the rate of evaporation since last filling consistent?
c) Is my filling pressure (water flow speed) what I anticipate?​
Too iffy I'm afraid.

But thanks a mil for putting so much thought into the problem!

I am interested in where to get those solenoids for so little though! If I do stumble on a solution they will be required, and if you can tell me a source for getting them so cheaply, that would be great. BTW - I assume the solenoids should be "Normally" closed, if for no other reason than the fact that that is the state you want them to be in if (when!) the electricity fails. Thanks.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Hi Scolley,

In all Honesty, this is a lot less iffy than I think You are willing to believe at this point. We are talking about a 1 gal. water change: 7x/day. So, let me ramble for a bit.....



> 1) Prime - I have real trouble with the concept of dosing so much Prime. I'm not aware of anyone doing that (dosing the entire tank 1 or more times a day).


You wouldn't need to dose the entire tank everyday. Since You would only be changing out +/-7 gal./day-You would only need to dose enough to cover that-Say, 5 gal. coverage 2x/day to cover 10gal worth. And in an DIY Auto Doser the Prime could probably be diluted to make exact amounts easier. My Macro, Micro and Excel DIY Auto Doser only pumps out about 5 oz of solution 1x/day, but my timer will permit 7 cycles/day.



> But what does it break down into? And does that accumulate? And can fish tolerate being so consistently bombarded with Prime. Without more information, I'm uncomfortable with such frequent full-tank dosing.


I don't know what it breaks down into, but all questions can be answered by SeaChem on their Forums-They are very Good at Responding and they check the forums everyday, except Wkends. Check out the link below when You get a Minute and You will see what I'm talking about.... (SeaChem Support Forums)
I started a Thread on their Forums and my first question has already been answered. I am now waiting on a response about any "Accumulation". The thread is here:
Prime Thread



> Problem is what you are proposing requires rather precise control over water flow in both directions.


You are Right. And in this application--its really not that difficult to do....The InFlow needs to be restricted down to more than manageable levels whether it is through actual restriction of flow or reduced pressure or both. HD, Lowes, etc all sell residential water pressure regulators for about +/-$25. You have one somewhere on Your household water supply now. So, by adding a $25 psi regulator, and a $3 ball valve to the formula--You can restrict the flow (via psi and actual Flowrate) down to seriously managable levels. At 5 oz/min it would take 25 mins for my DIY Auto Doser to pump 1 gal. of water. That's Control! It would take 96 secs to pump 1 *CUP* of solution! Additionally, companies like Edstrom Industries, Inc sell water pressure regulators that go down to 1-2 psi, but they are a bit more expensive: $50-$75.



> If something interferes with the outflow (something clogging the drain) I risk putting too much water back in.


A Very Valid Point. A simple work around is to add a strainer to Your spare Bulkhead and Tee it into Your current outflow. The OutFlow will be restricted by the Plumbing, so 1 open strainer should be more than enough to permit "Normal" flow if the equivalent of the other is blocked. The odds of something causing both strainers to be blocked and sufficiently restrict the outflow is what? about as close to zero as we are ever going to get...??? There are no absloute guarantees: Float switches stick, controllers fail, solenoids stick, pressure sensitive switches fail--that's the problem with automation: things don't ALWAYS work as they are supposed to. So, if we are looking at a 100% Absolute Guarantee--I don't think You are going to find it without a sump. And then You would still wind up relying on a Float switch/valve or senor of some kind.

BUT this system is based around the exchange of very small quantities of water, several times/day, using components that are tried and true through decades of day to day use by millions of people world wide. Sprinkler components have been around for a long time. And You still have Your Pressure sensitive switches as an additional back-up: They can still be rigged into this formula.....Yes, you would get a 10" drop and refill 7x/day until someone noticed--BUT that would be the worst.




> And the lower risk is if the water pressure forcing water back changes


The biggest risk here is that Your water supply will be cut off for some unforseen reason. Then Your tank would only lose 7 gal./24-hour period. However, that's not really likely these days, except for a matter of hours, unless you are on a well and the well-pump fails. With a psi regulator on Your household water supply and one on this system--an *increase* in water pressure is more than unlikely.

Any system that You rig up will need to be overseen by you and any other members of your household--especially for the first 6 months. Even with a "Perfect" setup--You would probably need to add or subtract that extra gal periodically. But an "Eye" can be kept on the system as You and other household members are simply walking by....Its not a big deal and can be observed very casually.



> No, for regular and dependable changes, I believe something must detect a full tank condition, and shut off the in-flow. The outflow could be timed, as you suggest. But the in-flow is where the risk is, and I am not comfortable depending on...


Again, we are talking about very small amounts of water over a given period of time. I'm not talking about opening a garden hose and then trying to time it just right. I'm talking about restricting the flow so, that it will take 5 minutes to replace 1 gal of water. That's less than a quart/min. Or 10 min., or 3 min. And that's the point of the dual solenoids--to simply make sure that the timeframe is adhered to: No Excess out, No Excess In. Again, The system would take some time to test and refine. But in the end, You would have a very reliable system based upon very reliable components--InLine without adding things inside the tank.



> A) Did the water flow out as fast as I needed it to?
> B) Was the rate of evaporation since last filling consistent?
> c) Is my filling pressure (water flow speed) what I anticipate?


A) Has been covered--dual Strainers on dual OutFlow Bulkheads.
B) Evaporation can be compensated for over time through minor adjustments. And can be partially compensated for periodically and manually. Additionally, the sprinkler controllers have manual overrides, so water can be manually added by you-whenever....and the controller can be used by You to complete any larger water changes for You manually or automatically.
C) With dual psi regulators--its not very likely at all. Without dual psi regulators--I would say that the answer is the same. A water dept Engineer or a plumber could probably answer that question and explain it with certainty. Biggest problem would be a reduction or loss of all water pressure for a short period of time. Then it would be up to You to deal with that situation--the same as it would be if You get up in the moring to take a shower and there's no water pressure. Once You discovered the lack of water--You can manually override the system until water is back and then refill and then go back on Auto.



> I assume the solenoids should be "Normally" closed, if for no other reason than the fact that that is the state you want them to be in if (when!) the electricity fails. Thanks.


Yes, the solenoids are normally closed. The Controllers have a built in backup and a PC Battery backup can be had a Wally World for $40 (APC-very good Brand. I use them and they work Great.). I have little doubt that it would hold enough energy to finish a cycle in the event of a power failure. Its really not necessary though. A power failure would simply = Your tank missing one or more water changes. Not a big deal. 



> I am interested in where to get those solenoids for so little though! If I do stumble on a solution they will be required, and if you can tell me a source for getting them so cheaply, that would be great.


They are available at Your Local HD, Lowes, etc. Any irrigation Company Online or Local. Here's some links:

Home Depot (search Sprinkler Valves if link doesn't work Properly)

http://www.sprinklerwarehouse.com-Hunter Brand

http://www.sprinklerwarehouse.com-Nelson Brand

In CT sprinkler systems may not be very popular, but chain hardware stores should still have SOME components and surfing online should be productive. Also, there should be at least one irrigation company around to support/supply any golf courses, etc.

After Fine tuning: the downside to this system is not Tank overflow--Its the tank being short of water. But since we are dealing with frequent small exchanges--its only going to lose 1 gal. every 3.5 hrs maximum. The likelihood of the water being off for more than 8 hrs (city water, not well) isn't very much--so You would be looking at a 2 gal. loss. Power failure at best just skips a Cycle(s) and at worst closes the Inflow or OutFlow Valves during a cycle generating a water loss of 1 gal. or less for the total length of the power outage. Testing and Fine Tuning is the key. 

Dosing Prime should not be a big deal, but questions would need to be answered by the folks that know: SeaChem.

I'm not asking You to take my word on this. Call Your water dept, go down to a local irrigation Company and tell them what You are trying to do, call a Plumber or 3. This system will work very reliably and over the long-haul. Yes, You will probably need to manually add back a gal or 3 every week--but that's what the manual override is for.....

It will just take some tinkering, testing and refining.......

If anybody has any questions, issues, etc....let's put them on the table and get them worked out.....this CAN be done....Reliably.

This is making me want to tear down my tank and drill holes in it.......


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Naja002 - incredible post again. Thanks!


Naja002 said:


> You wouldn't need to dose the entire tank everyday. Since You would only be changing out +/-7 gal./day-You would only need to dose enough to cover that-Say, 5 gal. coverage 2x/day to cover 10gal worth.


I don't think you understand how to dose Prime. If you change X amount of water in a Y volume tank, and if you are applying the Prime to the tank and not just a container holding the X volume of water, you have to dose for the entire Y volume of the tank. That's a lot of Prime. If I only change water once a day that's 7 times the prime going into my tank currently.

Sorry, I don't trust Seachem. They've got all kind of stuff in their ferts they don't tell you about. I'm not sure I trust them to advice me correctly about massive over use of Prime. But your thread you started is interesting! I am curious to see what they will say.:thumbsup: Even if I don't fully trust the response necessarily.

But as to the water pressure regulation, let me see if I can summarize your suggestion...

Over pressure both your in and out flows, then cut them back a level they will never go below with pressure regulators. Then just fine tune to make sure you can equal out your in and out flow volumes.​
That's good thinking! Thanks. Gotta ponder that a bit, and go take a look at these "psi" regulators. Do you have a link to one of these that would work with this application? Everything I google is gas or pretty high pressure.

Thanks.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

> Over pressure both your in and out flows, then cut them back a level they will never go below with pressure regulators. Then just fine tune to make sure you can equal out your in and out flow volumes.


Ok, that is basically, Right, but it sounds kind of backwards to me: So, let me try to break it down:

*OutFlow:* Gravity-Fed, Pressure reduces as water level reduces-Depth Creates Pressure. On a 1-2 Gal. exchange pressure will remain equal for all Practical purposes. So, there is no Over- or Under Pressurizing Your OutFlow Pressure--just restricting the amount of _*Flow*_ that comes out. Once the amount of flow is sufficiently restricted--_*Time*_ becomes the Critical Factor. You will have to determine how many minute(s) it will take to drain 1 gal. And in the end You may have to settle for 1.25 gal. or 1.5 gal. in order to work with the 1 minute increments. 

*InFlow* You start out with your standard household water pressure. Then either restrict the flow itself, Or futher reduce the pressure with another pressure regulator *and* the restriction of flow.
Turning a Ball-valve half way closed will not reduce the water pressure, but it will reduce the flow. In order to reduce the water pressure You will need an additional water pressure regulator like this:
Watts Mini Water Pressure Regulator P50-60 (0354552)

That Water pressure regulator is _*Exactly*_ what You need. Its is adjustable from 0-60psi. Without Pressure the water will not flow (0 psi). 60 psi is much more than You will need. So, Your target psi is somewhere between the 0 and 60 psi that that regulator adjusts to....
Since *Flow* can be reduced by simply reducing Pressure, Restriction by something like a ball-valve really becomes unnecessary. Once You find the minimum psi that will work--_*Time*_ once again becomes the Critical Factor.

You don't have to drain and refill in the exact same amount of time. If it takes 2 minutes to drain 1 gal. and 10 mins to refill it--so be it!

It will be much easier to match the drained quantity of water than the other way around. So, You determine how much drains out in 1 minute, or how many minutes it takes to drain out the quantity you seek (1gal). _*Then*_ you adjust your InFlow psi and time to come out within a few ounces of what was drained. Then once a wk you manually put the lacking quantity back in via the manual override.

In short, for the InFlow You determine the _*minimum*_ psi that will put water into the tank. Then determine how many minutes it takes to put that (1gal?) back in.



> I don't think you understand how to dose Prime. If you change X amount of water in a Y volume tank, and if you are applying the Prime to the tank and not just a container holding the X volume of water, you have to dose for the entire Y volume of the tank. That's a lot of Prime. If I only change water once a day that's 7 times the prime going into my tank currently.


Ok, I have No idea why the Directions instruct to dose for the entire tank, but only for a specific quantity if it is added to the new water first. Really doesn't make much sense. However, the Directions also call for 2x and 5x dosing, so I assume that it would be reasonably safe. Additionally, this is all about water changing--so with each water change X-amount of Prime and/or any "accumulation" is going down the drain with the "Old" water.
I use the Wardley Brand from walmart: Its cheap $2 and Effective. It calls for 5 drops/gal and I use about 8 drops/gal. I have added it into the new water, and into the tank and then added the new water to the tank. I have never had a problem with that product--and its cheap.
Being a planted tank--ammonia should not be an issue, so that "benefit" of Prime is really useless unless there is ammonia in Your Tap Water.

The Dechlor issue can be worked around. At 1 gal/3.5 hrs--You may not even need to add Dechlor...

More Water Pressure Regulators:
263a
263a-again-cheaper, no gauge, 1/2"


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Naja002 - You are the man! What a great response/explanation! I gotta do that! Now granted, it will not accommodate for evaporation, other than an estimated adjustment, to be periodically tweaked by adding a bit of water... OK, that's a great compromise to get our of weekly water changes!

And there appears to still be the Prime problem, not overdosing that is. But in your Prime thread the Seachem tech indicated charcoal filtration could do the same thing. So I suppose why not put a charcoal filter on the high pressure side of the inflow pressure regulator? Changing the charcoal every few months is no big deal?

This is cool! This could work.

Thanks for the links to the pressure regulators. Now I've got to start planning the plumbing. I think I want to put this entirely in-line. I've already got two bulkhead drains coming into a single outflow manifold, which in turn branches out into two different canister filtration systems. I just need to hang another exit off that manifold.

Too cool. Gotta go look at my plumbing and give this some more thought!


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

> I think I want to put this entirely in-line. I've already got two bulkhead drains coming into a single outflow manifold, which in turn branches out into two different canister filtration systems. I just need to hang another exit off that manifold.


One Problem. If You are taking about hooking the Drainage plumbing up-inline-to Your canister filter, etc--That may not work. 1) You have the pressure created by the canister filter--not just a gravity feed and 2) you may find your drain sucking air into "the System". You can try it, of course, but I think it may actually complicate things.

Adding water to the system via the manifold that you are talking about shouldn't be a problem. You may need to turn the psi upon on the regulator a bit higher--but it still shouldn't be a problem.

One simple way to drain with 2 strainers and only 1 bulkhead would be a simple Tee screwed into the bulkhead with a strainer on each side. You could even drill 50 1/8" holes into the tee itself. Like this:


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Maybe I'm not being clear. Here's a crude pic of my plumbing...










I'm talking about putting a new tap on the schedule 40 outflow manifold on the top left. That is getting pressure from the tank, from 2 different 3/4" bulkheaded outflows. Those outflows both have strainers in the tank.

Then the inflow obviously would be tapped into the one of the two return flows. Seems that would work, provided the water pressure into the return flow was sufficient.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Ok, I understood and understand what it is that You are saying. 

*EDIT:* I deleted what I had posted, because after thinking about it for a while: I believe that any Increase in Out-Going Pressure can be satisfactorily reduced by the plumbing. See Experiment #2 Below. And I don't believe that the system sucking air in is going to be a problem.

*Experiment #1*
*-----------------------------------------------------*
Ok, here is an experiment that I just did:
I siphoned 1 gal. of water out of my tank and into a 1 gal jug via airline tubing.
The tank height/water level is 52" above the floor and the 1 gal jug was on the floor.
It took 11 mins and 47 secs to siphon that 1 gal.
That's 10.86 oz/min.
12mins would have been 130.3 oz--128 oz in a gal.
That's Control!
*-----------------------------------------------------*

The Experiment above may not apply directly to Your drainage setup, but it should give You an idea of the amount of control that You can achieve over the InFlow and OutFlow from Your Tank.
Plumbed from Your manifold or Bulkhead say 3/4" immediately reduced to 1/2" and run to your drainage area and capped with a 1/2" NPT x 3/16" barb with 25ft of airline tubing run into a $1 plastic sterlite box with drainage holes drilled into the bottom--should be more than enough to reduce the OutFlow to very manageable levels.










Also is a Diagram below that shows 3 options of how to end the OutFlow Drain line in an effort to keep any bugs, spiders, worms, etc from clogging it up and preventing discharge. I am sure there are other options, but these are 3 that I have thought of: Simple, cheap and should be effective over the long haul:










Below are 2 threads that I have started in reference to the Sprinkler Controller and Valves:

Controller--Start Time Stacking...???

Nelson Valves...???

*Experiment #2*
*----------------------------------------------------------*
I really didn't want to dig all the stuff out, but I did. "Wet Boots" response on the Sprinkler Talk Forum doesn't make much sense to me--but maybe he's right--I don't know. What I do know is this:
I have been in and out of many, many things in my days and many of them are just like the Aquarium world--trying to make stuff that they just don't make parts for....
So, I dug out a RainJet Sprinkler controller and 2 valves that I have that have been collecting dust for about 6 years now. They are left overs from when I needed to make my own Misting system for Reptiles.

Here are some pix of the Components, Setup and Drip Rate:Sprinkler Valve Experiment Pix

I only used/opened one valve for this experiment.

I used a RainJet Controller with 1 minute increments.
A digital timer to determine how long it would take to fill a 1gal jug.
2 RainBird Valves
1/2" PVC to the valves
3/4"IDx1"OD Tubing to siphon water out of my tank (52" above floor) attached to the 1/2" PVC
The White tubing in the Pix is mist-line tubing with a ID about the same as airline tubing.

It took 32mins 54 secs to fill the 1 gal jug via siphon. Yes, it did work! The rate was very, very low--but that is what we are looking for.

3.89 oz/min
33 min=128.4 oz

So, these valves will work on Gravity-Fed Pressure. As I stated on the Other forum: There are valves available in the $10-$20 range that offer as low as: 0.1 GPM and 5 psi operating parameters with 3/4" pipe/tubing.

*----------------------------------------------------------*

Ok, I've done a small amount of surfing on the "Direct Acting" Solenoid valves that "Wet Boots" on the other forum refers to....They are generally $70-$80 Each (x 2-4 Valves) and I have found one on Clearance for $41. Upside: they are 120v @ about 15 watts which means they could be operated by everyday appliance timers--Digital: $15-25 x 2-4 timers. At that wattage all 4 valves could easily be operated by one timer.

$41 Clearance Direct Acting Solenoid Valve-Normally Closed-EDIT:Out Of Stock

Dema Miniature Solenoid Valve-1/4": $37.72

*Experiment #3*
*-----------------------------------------------------------*
The filtration on my tank goes from the xP3 into a DIY InLine C02 Reactor (2" PVC x 25"h) out the bottom to a DIY InLine Heater (2" PVC x 24") then up into the tank. In both the Reactor and the Heater I have plumbed Burp/Bleed lines in order to release any 02/C02 buildup. At the end of the Bleed line is one of these valves.
I simply opened up the valve and timed how long it took to fill the 1 gal. jug...
9 min 20 secs or 13.7 oz/min.
This still shows a lg amount of control for the drainage side and that there is *some* positive pressure=Greater than Gravity-Experiment #1.
There was no air-sucking--just positive pressure. So, hooking the drain line up to the manifold should not be a problem. However, my DIY items are on the output/push side of the filter and Your manifold is on the input/pull side of Your Filter.
*-----------------------------------------------------------*

New Prime Thread-Why Full-Tank Dosage?


Water Psi Gauge $15 shipped

Water Psi Gauge-$7.64 shipped

A water pressure gauge similar to the one above, plumbed inline to or after the pressure regulator would be of great help during setup and tweaking, and would probably add some mental comfort long-term.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Well... another very well thought out and researched post Naja002! Thanks.

I'm happy that the over all concept you have here is sound and I'm ready to start. But there are a few things worth mentioning...


Naja002 said:


> However, my DIY items are on the output/push side of the filter and Your manifold is on the input/pull side of Your Filter.


Right you are. So, as opposed to what has been discussed to this point, I think I'll put the outflow on the pressure side of one of my canisters. That way I don't ever have to worry about junk in the outflow lines - it's prefiltered. But I will use your suggestions for the terminal end of the outflow tubing, to keep critters out. Thanks!



Naja002 said:


> A water pressure gage similar to the one above, plumbed in-line to or after the pressure regulator would be of great help during setup and tweaking, and would probably add some mental comfort long-term.


Agreed here too. I'll use one on the outflow side.

So, I think what I'm looking at doing is something like this...

OUTFLOW
Canister Filter -> T with Solenoid -> Watts Mini Water Pressure Regulator -> Water PSI Gage -> Critter-proof Drain Pipe

INFLOW
House water line -> Charcoal Filter -> Peristaltic Pump -> T to normal Canister Filter Water Return Line​
In both cases, it is operated by timers. On the outflow the Solenoid is on a timer. Too bad the sprinkler solenoids seem to be unsuitable. That would have been cheaper. But I've had my eye on these puppies for a while.
On the inflow, the Peristaltic Pump is on one. 

It's not cheap. But it would be invisible. And it would work IMO. But feedback, as always, is most welcome.:thumbsup:


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Hi Scolley,




> ... another very well thought out and researched post Naja002


I have been doing a lot of research and I have it sorted out. I believe in this so much that I have put my money where my mouth is and ordered the stuff:

It will create an: 

*Automatic Inline Water Change/Dechlor/Fertilizer System* for under $400.


Just waiting on deliveries and should be ready to report in about 30 days--after assembly and tinkering time.



> OUTFLOW
> Canister Filter -> T with Solenoid -> Watts Mini Water Pressure Regulator -> Water PSI Gage -> Critter-proof Drain Pipe


You will *Not* need the Pressure Regulator or Gauge on the OutFlow side--the pressure from the Canister filter is barely more than Gravity. See Experiments # 2 and 3 in post #65.

I have no idea whether or not You will need those on the InFlow side with the Peristaltic Pump. 

After thinking about it: the drain end may be better combined as B and C or B and A in the Diagram above. Additionally, Good Ol' Steel wool would probably be Your best choice if You decided to do A or B and A.

If You can run both the Peristalic Pump and Solenoid off of 1 timer it would be a good idea: Any time Gain/loss won't have an effect. And a Timer failure would just shut down the system, whereas with 2 timers--One fails while the other keeps working. Personally, I've been having a heck of a time trying to find quality appliance timers that don't cost $25 or more. Much of what I have found is junk. My main 2 are from radio shack and I have used them without problems for years now.



> Too bad the sprinkler solenoids seem to be unsuitable.


They are not unsuitable. Even "Wet Boots" at the other forum started to break weak and admit that its possible. Here's a Quote:



> By the way, I didn't want to maintain that there was no chance whatsoever for a valve to work at very low flows. ...I just wanted to make you aware that you shouldn't stake everything on the numbers you might see on performance charts. Lots of people can read some chart that says a sprinkler head has a maximum distance of 42 feet at 50 psi, and set up a sprinkler system that depends on that performance, whereupon they become very unhappy with the unexpected dead areas on their lawn, that should be getting watered, "according to the book."


I explained to him that I already realized not to "Bank" on the manufacturer's claims-that in itself was the reason I initiated the thread questioning the "Quality" of Nelson valves vs. say, Hunter.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

More Thoughts:



> On the inflow, the Peristaltic Pump is on one.


My understanding of Your system is that the Charcoal Filter is to Remove Chlorine/Chlorimine and the Peristaltic Pump is to "meter" the InFlow quantity of water going in to the tank, Correct...?

So,...
Maybe I'm not seeing this right, but the Peristatic Pump that You linked to doses:



> Flow Rates from 0.06 to 5.6mL/minute


That's 5.6 *ml* /min. At that rate, it would take 11.26 _*Hours*_ to pump 1 gal. of water. And that's at Max OutPut.

3,785 ml/ 1gal. per "Easy Unit Converter"

3,785/5.6= 675.89 mins/60 mins per hr= 11.26 hrs.

That's not going to work unless you are only going to change 2 gals./day and then the pump will run 24/7.

They do offer a 600ml/min Peristaltic Pump for $115 though:

600ml/min 115vac

Its "Fixed-Flow" so You will still need to sort out the Drainage amount in order to run the Peristaltic Pump for an even number of minutes because of the 1 min increments of most timers. The one above will take 6.3 mins for 1 gal and you will have to choose between 6 _*OR*_ 7 mins.

Or, You do the 6 mins and on exactly 1 gal (128 oz) drainage that would leave you 180ml= 6 oz short per cycle= 42 oz short/day= 2.3 gal. short/wk. Additionally, 3 cycles/day could be run at 7 mins adding an extra 14 oz/7mincycle=42 oz/day=2.3 gals/wk only leaving Your tank -0- gal./wk short plus evaporation. 
However, those 3 7min-cycles would also be adding in the 0.3mins=6 oz, so You would be adding an extra 18 oz/day=126 oz/wk= ~ 1gal/wk OVER, but that may just help compensate for Evaporation.

This is the Tinkering part. Tinkering, Tweaking and Refining.

HTH


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Naja002 said:


> My understanding of Your system is that the Charcoal Filter is to Remove Chlorine/Chlorimine


Right.



Naja002 said:


> the Peristaltic Pump is to "meter" the InFlow quantity of water going in to the tank, Correct...?


Right.



Naja002 said:


> 3,785/5.6= 675.89 mins/60 mins per hr= 11.26 hrs.
> 
> That's not going to work unless you are only going to change 2 gals./day and then the pump will run 24/7.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, I didn't mean the specific pump I linked to, just one like that. As you saw, they have many different flow rates. But I would not select the one you indicated (600ml/min) because the flow rate is too high, leading to the kind of choices you indicated. I would get a much lower flow, and let it run longer for greater control. I do the exact thing with my peristalic audo-dosing pumps now.


And just to throw a monkey-wrench in all this. I may have spotted the pressure sensor I wanted in the first place. A good, out of tank, pressure sensor negates any issues of controlled in-flow. In-flow just happens until the pressure sensor opens the circuit due to a "full tank" condition. Take a look at this... I've got to call these people.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

> I'm sorry, I didn't mean the specific pump I linked to, just one like that. As you saw, they have many different flow rates. But I would not select the one you indicated (600ml/min) because the flow rate is too high, leading to the kind of choices you indicated. I would get a much lower flow, and let it run longer for greater control. I do the exact thing with my peristalic audo-dosing pumps now.


I understand Your Point, but with 1 minute increment timers/controllers--You are going to run into the same 0.? mins over or under--unless you do the math and figure out which pump will pump the quantity, within a few ml, before You buy. A Good 1 _*Second*_ increment controller is what You need and that is what I bought. I will be able to time my Flows--in and out--down the the very last Second.



> Take a look at this... I've got to call these people.


I may be looking at this wrong, but what I am seeing is 0-5PSID (=pounds per square inch, differential) _*Minimum*_--at Best. And as zzapd stated on page 1, post 15 of this thread:



> If the switch is resetting after a ten inch drop that is pretty good for a switch of that type. The 10 inch drop is only a change of .4 psi. A quality
> industrial switch that costs about 300 will only get you down to a five inch
> dead band.


That's 0.4 psid. If I am seeing this correctly--that switch will just leave You in the same boat that You are already in with the pressure switches that You already have. Maybe I'm wrong, but I hope You will let us know what they say when You call.

Here's some Info on the Charcoal filter idea from:

Chuck's Planted Aquarium Pages



> In addition to the effectiveness concerns regarding the removal of chlorine, is the issue of chloramine. Very few carbon filters can remove chloramine. The chlorine-ammonia bond prevents standard carbon from removing the chlorine. Some new carbon filter units are now using a special "Catalytic" Activated Carbon. This catalytic carbon can break the chlorine-ammonia bond, and absorb the chlorine. BUT! They leave the ammonia free, which we've already said is a bad thing. I've seen one tap-water filter that added a special ammonia absorbing compound (zeolite) in addition to the carbon. But zeolite has a fairly small ammonia absorbing capacity so it needs frequent replacement, and it isn't found in any common tap-water filters. Without the additional ammonia absorbing compounds, you must use some other treatment to remove the ammonia.
> 
> There are several other problems regarding the use of carbon filtration. First, the effectiveness of the chlorine removal is highly dependant on the flow rate. Filters will commonly list the recommended flow. One high-quality filter states "At 1 gpm (gallon per minute), with an input of 3ppm, the output will contain .5ppm". As you increase the water flow thru the filter, the effectiveness drops. Some filters contain flow-restrictors to prevent you from increasing the flow above the recommended. In either case, to allow effective filtering, your flow rate is limited.


Looks like Chloramines are going to be a Problem.....

And in reference to the need for a Low Flow Rate---That's a _*Good*_ thing for Us!

Another Thought on the Charcoal Filter from:

SpectraPure



> Caution: The deionization cartridge life is greatly reduced when operated on low pH waters, or water with high CO2 (carbon dioxide) levels. The exact cartridge life will vary greatly with pH, carbon dioxide levels, and TDS etc. in your RO water or the feed water supplying the RO system. Aeration or de-gassification of RO product water is recommended for such waters for removal of carbon dioxide.


"...high C02 levels."

That quote is in reference to Catalytic Carbon that removes Chloramines and leaves ammonia.

Edit: After thinking about it in reference to all of this--the High C02 levels of Planted tanks won't be an issue, because this carbon filter will be filtering "Tap" water--not tank water. So, we're back to Chloramines or Free-Ammonia.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Naja002 - you are absolutely right on the timer! If you can find one that works in seconds, rather than minutes, that is absolutely the way to go. Allows you to keep the flow rate up, but still have control!:thumbsup: 

Also great work on the chlorine/chloramine dilemma. Not sure of the answer here. Could be buying an R/O unit (hope not!) or using an ammonia remover. But do keep in mind, plants do suck up a bit of ammonia. It's not the bad thing in a planted tank that it is in a fish only tank.



But I need to shift to a different topic...



I looked at this, and boy did it get me cranking!

It does exactly what I want... measures the pressure of a water column to a high degree of accuracy. So I can put it under one of my bulkheads, have a simple drain on a timer, and then fill the tank back up until this little puppy cuts the filling pump off because it detects a "full tank" condition. Too cool!

Problem is, it requires some circuitry that I don't know how to create. I'm handy with a soldering iron, provided someone gives me plans. I've started a different thread on this problem here. Maybe get some help from one of the many EE's out there!


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

> I looked at this, and boy did it get me cranking!


Sounds Great! My Original thought was that You wanted to use it in the same fashion that You tried with the other 2 switches that You already have--Drain and Top-off. As just a Top-off--it may very well work and would be a Steal at $70. :thumbsup: 

One Question I have is: Why can't You just use one or both of the switches that You already have for the Top-off? I thought the top-off part worked--it was just the 10'' drainage that was the problem...?

Sorry I can't help You with the Circuit--its a bit out of my League!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Naja002 said:


> One Question I have is: Why can't You just use one or both of the switches that You already have for the Top-off? I thought the top-off part worked--it was just the 10'' drainage that was the problem...?


Problem with those switches was that they worked, as in triggered accurately at a present point, but before they would switch back to the other state, they had to be reset by a significant change in pressure, like 10-12 inches or so.

In other words, my switches can detect "full" quite accurately, and open the circuit so the filling pump stops (or the solenoid closes, or whatever). But the switch will remain open until it detects a drop in pressure for almost a foot of water. So the only thing they are good for is really big water changes - like a 50% change once a week.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Got It!

I assumed there was 1 switch for the Drain "stop" and 1 for the Top-off "stop".

Thanx!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Naja002 said:


> Got It!
> 
> I assumed there was 1 switch for the Drain "stop" and 1 for the Top-off "stop".
> 
> Thanx!


Naaaaw... I bought two switches just because I wanted redundant shut off on the filling process. I really don't want water on the floor!


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Just wanted to chime in here and say that I got all the stuff that I ordered--the last of it came today.  

I've plumbed the InFlow and OutFlow assemblies together, Setup and wired the Controller.

Just need to go to the Hardware store and get the parts to plumb into my cold water supply under a sink.

Had a few problems with the wiring since these valves are 3 wire ( :icon_eek: ?), but I seem to have it sorted out. Will test with water once I get to the Hardware store! :thumbsup:


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Ok, it Works! :thumbsup: 

I will detail it and start a new thread, but here's to date:

Its assembled, wired, plumbed into the cold water supply and the drain is plumbed outside.

Run 1 to get my drainage time and quantity (4 gal). Runs 2-5 were tests. Runs 2 and 3 required a minimum amount of tweaking. It performed beautifully without interference for runs 4 and 5. 
I marked my low-water point with a permanent marker and have a visual High reference point. The high reference point is actually 2 points 1/4" apart vertically--and the higher of the 2 still leaves me 7/8" from the overflow point.

My margin of error for runs 4 and 5 was about 1/16". I cannot argue with that.

The original valves that I purchased were shipped back today because they are garbage--I wasted quite a few hours yesterday trying to determine what the problem was--the valves or the controller. Turned out to be the valves, so I RMAed them for a refund. I hooked up my old valves and everything works beautifully. I have 2 new valves--just like these old ones---on the way.

One problem that I see is the cold water supply. However, I personally plan on doing 4gal x 1/day x 7/wk water change on a 55gal tank for approx. 50%/wk. The 4 gal of cold water seems to drop the temp a couple of degrees F--Not a big deal to me.

I have the Dechlor injector hooked up, but I am not using it currently--I am adding Dechlor manually for now while I test the Auto water change phase. After I am satisfied with the Auto Water Change part, I will then test the Dechlor injector. If that is adequate I will then move to the Fertilizer injector. One thing at a time for now.

At this time I only have 1 valve hooked up to each the inflow and the outflow. But I expect to be using this at least Semi-Supervised for a while. I can let this tank do its thing while I do other things. That way I will be present should disaster strike.

And Yes: Its all InLine and Nothing at all went into the tank! Plumbing it into the Canister filter works Great!

A Complete 4gal Drain and Refill cycle takes 17 minutes.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Congratulations Naja002! I'm _really _looking forward to seeing diagrams. Please be sure to include a detail parts list if you can.

I understand your concerns about water temperature. I had assumed that by plumbing the inflow into an in-line spot upsteam of my in-line heater would help with this, allowing the cold water to go by the heater before entering the tank. But as you mention, only changing small volumes really takes care of this.

I'm also interested in seeing if your dosing solution works. I've decided to try to make it work with a venturi, which I've ordered. So we can compare methods.

Good work! Looking forward to new information as you have it! Thanks.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Finally, a Response from SeaChem about the dosage amount of Prime when it is injected InLine with the New water:

SeaChem's Answer

I've run tests 6-about 16 so far.

Minor problems on the drainage end, but certainly nothing that can't be tweaked out. I added the Drain End-(Option A) and that really threw things off. I've had to add 3mins 25 secs to the drain time--now: 14mins 45 secs. I think adding the 1/4" fitting at the tube end is what has created the extra drag. Currently at 34.7 oz/min OutFlow.


The 6 mins 18 secs Refill time is holding steady.

Going to pick up a bottle of Dechlor tomorrow and start testing the Dechlor injector....running low from all the testing and don't have enough to "fill" the injector.

Working on presenting all the details..... :thumbsup:

Added Thought: "[Prime] will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels."-- Used daily---it might have some daily effect on your Traces....


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Naja002 said:


> Added Thought: "[Prime] will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels."-- Used daily---it might have some daily effect on your Traces....


I would assume the community would have noticed a micro deficiency problem from people using prime, were that the case. There's a whole lot of people here using Prime.

Also, as Seachem confirmed, you are dosing for the new water, not the tank volume (when adding prime to the new water and not the tank). So any affect it will have on the tank will be diminished due to the significantly reduced concentration once it hits the tank.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Problem Solved!*

When I started this thread I was frustrated because I was trying to create an autowater change/water replenishment system. My problem was caused by my desire to put no more equipment in my tank, so I was trying to detect water pressure through water coming out of a tube attached to a bulkhead in the bottom of my tank. But the pressure switches I purchased were plagued by a large amount of what is apparently called "dead band". On a pressure sensing switch that means that when a high pressure condition is sensed (like a full tank), the pressure has to be reduced by some present point (a certain volume of water drained from the tank) before it will properly detect a high pressure condition again.

In practical terms that means, upon filling the tank the pressure switch will detect when the tank is full and shut off the water flow. But before you can do that again, you have to take pressure off the switch by lowering the water a certain number of inches. In the case of my switches, that was 10 or 12 inches... that's a lot of water. So I started this thread to explore alternatives.

Well I found the alternative. Here it is... a different pressure switch.

It arrived today, and it works like a charm! Wow! It is wicked accurate on the fill side, does not vary more than 1/4". That's great! So I can automatically bring the water way up to the top edge of the tank.

Its got a deadband issue too. But it is only about 2.5". So in my tank that's about 9 gallons. So that means that's the least amount I can drain if I'm going to automatically refill it. So with margin of error (will require some testing), I assume I'll probably wind up removing 12 gallons or so each time.

But I'm pretty excited! It CAN BE DONE! Accurately! Now all I've got to do is build it!

Needless to say, I've already started...


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

> It arrived today, and it works like a charm! Wow! It is wicked accurate on the fill side, does not vary more than 1/4". That's great! So I can automatically bring the water way up to the top edge of the tank.
> 
> Its got a deadband issue too. But it is only about 2.5". So in my tank that's about 9 gallons. So that means that's the least amount I can drain if I'm going to automatically refill it. So with margin of error (will require some testing), I assume I'll probably wind up removing 12 gallons or so each time.
> 
> But I'm pretty excited! It CAN BE DONE! Accurately! Now all I've got to do is build it!


That's Great! I'm glad that You found something that suits the purpose! :thumbsup: 

A 1/4" margin on a device like that is plenty accurate. On my sytem a 1/4" becomes cumulative--either direction.

12 gals./day is not bad at all. My tank looks really good with the small daily water changes....You can See the difference.....

I started testing the Dechlor injector and it works fine. I'm using Wardley Chlor-Out--I've used it for Years. I'm using 157% of the recommended dosage: Recommended dosage is 5 drops/gal.---I've always used 8 drops/gal. = 160%.
A 118ml bottle works out to 157% dosage on this setup. Don't think I can get much closer than that with just: Open bottle and Pour in....  

My Controller would be a Good Back-up for Your system and Your Pressure switch would be a Good Back-up for my system. But each are a bit expensive to combine.

The 2 new valves that I ordered arrived today, so now I am making a dual tank system. I have a 29gal and a 55gal side-by-side--Same water source, same drain and same dechlor injector, and soon to be: same fert injector. I could add a 3rd tank--and I may later on---on zones 5 and 6 and it will just cost ~$30 for 2 more valves. :thumbsup:

I just purchased the 3 gal. injector version that will last for 200 days (Both aquariums combined) on either the Dechlor or Ferts. The one I have now is good for 50 days--with both Aquariums.

Glad to hear it Works! Keep us Updated!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Naja002 - It sounds like you are rocking and rolling pal! And I think that it is so cool that your system is so scalable. Mine definately will not be.

I am frankly anxious to see details of a working Dechlor injector. I've got a venturi based solution worked out. But it requires serious dilution of the Prime. That's a problem for me because the container to hold the diluted Prime is a few gallons, and the nightmare in my stand is so cramped for space, a smaller solution is _greatly _preferred.

I'm also curious about the solenoids you ultimately used. I took the coward's expensive way out and bought two solenoids. I'm sure they will work great. But I'm gonna feel like an idiot when you demonstrate that I could have gotten the same functionality for 1/4 of the cost.

So keep up the good work! I'm holding my breath for those details!


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

> I am frankly anxious to see details of a working Dechlor injector. I've got a venturi based solution worked out. But it requires serious dilution of the Prime. That's a problem for me because the container to hold the diluted Prime is a few gallons, and the nightmare in my stand is so cramped for space, a smaller solution is greatly preferred.


I bought the smallest one which is 3/4 gal in size (6" diameter x 9.5" h) and will cover 300 gals of water on the Fastest setting. At 12 gal./day it would last You 25 days on the Fastest setting-400:1. The slowest setting-15,000:1 is good for 11,250 gal. of water and would last You 937 days at 12gal/day. There are 2 settings in between: the Second fastest is 2,500:1 = 1,875gal. = 156 days at 12gal/day. Third Fastest is 7,500:1 = 5,625gal. = 468 days at 12gal/day. You just decide which setting is most practical for You and then determine how many gal of flow it will cover and add at least that amount of dechlor to cover that much water. I am using a 157% (118ml) Chlor-out to cover 300 gal = 400:1. This is all for the 3/4gal size.

Once I add the 29gal Tank to the setup, I will probably move to the 2nd Fastest setting (2,500:1) which at 157% will require 490ml of Chlor-out and should last 312 days on a Combined total of 6 gal. of water change/day-(4gal/55gal tank, 2gal./29gal tank).

I just bought the 3 gal. version because I found it for only $6 more than the one I have, and I will use it for Ferts. I have already done the math, but its just a matter of determining how much of each is dosed/day. The 55gal. will get its daily dose in its 4gal. of water change and the 29gal. will get its daily dose in 2 gal. of water change. 29gal is basically 1/2 of 55 and the water change is 1/2---so the dosed amount will automatically work itself out in this instance. As long as the *percentage of water changed *in each tank is the same--the dose will be the same--respectively to each tank. Does this make sense? Its correct, and I understand it--I'm just not sure its understandable to anybody else! 

The valves should hold up without a problem. I returned the original ones because they were garbage and while researching some more--I discovered that the "Old" ones that I already have--are _*Very*_ tried and true and I know personally that this Brand/Model has been around for a long, long time--so, I just ordered 2 more! They arrived today.



> And I think that it is so cool that your system is so scalable.


Me Too actually. The cold water supply that I plumbed into is centrally located between 4 tanks--2 to the Left (55 and 29gal.) and 2 to the Right(so-to-speak)--I can easily tee into that water supply again and run a water supply to the other 2 tanks. Run 5 wires to the Controller, add a drain to the outside at that location--and I can incorporate this sytem to all 4 tanks. Additionally, the Dechlor and fert injectors can also be used for all 4 tanks--I would just need to add Chlor-Out to probably the first Tank on each "end" and it would be good to go from there....

But this system does have its hassles. Actual drainage setup requires me to drain an *Exact* amount of water (4gal. for the 55gal.) and measure that drainage by _*Time*_. Then measure the refill by Time to an exact level. Repeatability and refinement are good--as long as You only tweak one side or the other. When You start making Time adjustments on _*Both*_ sides of the system--Look Out!--things get out of wack quickly enough! :icon_eek: I've discovered that it is easier to measure out an exact quantity of drainage, set that Time and then tweak the refill to an exact location.

Also, the 29gal. is currently filtered by a HOB, so I am going to see how well this system works on a siphon for drainage. Yes, something will have to go into the tank, but that's not really an issue for me-- and it can be "Fixed" later to run inline off of a canister filter. I am going to insert a 3/4" piece of PVC similar to Option A for the Drainage End and use that for the drainage intake inside the tank--minus the steel wool. I will probably drill a bunch of holes on the lower half and then cover that on the outside with 30ppi filter sponge--its a shrimp tank, so I need to be sure nothing gets inside.











I'm really glad that You found a useable pressure switch. Overall, Your system should be a lot more reliable over the long haul than mine, and should be easier to setup. But the cost of those pressure switches--_*per*_ tank makes it a bit steep for people with mutiple tanks. My system can be used for weekly water changes and can be "Supervised" while doing other things--like trimming or watching TV. It doesn't _*Need*_ to be supervised, but on a muti-tank setup once/wk--why not? On a 3 tank setup: Cost is $89.63/tank plus shipping and Misc. fittings. That includes the Water Change, Dechlor and Ferts Injectors. Plus 2 tanks can be drained/refilled at the same time, or 2 identical size tanks can be put on one Zone--adding a "4th" tank to the system. Basically, 2 identical tanks can be put on 1 zone allowing for up to 6 tanks per controller. Its pretty versatile, but I think it also has more room for mishap than Your system.

One Problem with my system is using the cold water supply--cooking, toilet, shower, whatever--while it is in refill mode.

Just be sure to check Your Temps when you refill, so You know if the drop is acceptable.....


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Well, Back to what I edited out of Post #65--Suction/Draw into the system.

I have the water coming out of my tank and into the xP3 Canister Filter, then Out to the 2 plumbed in lines for the Auto Water Changer, then into a DIY C02 Reactor, then into a DIY Heater Module, and Now into a Mag-Drive 3 Pump and then up to the tank.

The reason that I added the Mag-Drive pump was because I added a DIY spraybar that runs the length of the tank.

Now with the Mag-Drive pump in the system--I get No drainage: unless I turn the pump off. And the Bleed lines that I put on each of the DIY C02 Reactor and Heater--suck air into the system.

So, Suction/Draw _*Can*_ be a problem.

I am going to move the drain/refill lines to: After the Mag-Drive and before the tank--that _*Should*_ created a "Push" and not just suck the water right passed the drain line(s). We'll see......

EDIT: Changed the plumbing around to the above and it does work the "New" way.......


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Naja002 said:


> So, Suction/Draw _*Can*_ be a problem.


I assumed that would be the case, so I've located my connections on the pressure side.

Have the pressure sensor hooked up. Was a PITA, and is not finished. The sensor itself is adjustable, but the adjustment is somewhat rough, with a lot of variance. You can lock it down to a certain point, but what that point is exactly (within a few inches of H2O) is a bit hard to tell without testing. So I rigged a housing for the sensor that moved vertically, decreasing the depth of the water column it is sensing when you raise it, and doing the opposite when you lower it. So I set the sensor at a level that is approximately right (within a few inches - it's range is -30 to 200" H2O!) and now am fine tuning it by slightly raising and lowering the sensor housing.

I mounted the housing on a vertical threaded zinc rod, so raising and lowing the housing is just a matter of turning screws to push it up or down the rod. Unfortunately until I get the replenishment plumbing finished, testing the pressure height settings is a real PITA. It means draining 12g out of the tank, treating a replacing 12 with Prime, adjusting settings and starting all over.

Between the time, the mess, and the impact on water chemistry and fert levels, I suspect I'll be doing this adjustment slowly - over the course of a number of weeks. Only so many partial water changes I'm gonna do in a day.

For now I'm also still waiting on parts. Have tested the solenoids, which work great. But I'm waiting on hose barb adapters to fit them.

The toughest part is going to be testing the venturi driven Prime injector. I looked at the fert injector Naja002 is using, but it appears expensive, and I've already dropped enough on this little project. Though if the venture does not work, I may have to change my tune.

Pics and more details later as things progress.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

> I assumed that would be the case, so I've located my connections on the pressure side.


Mine is/was on the pressure side also. But inbetween the canister and Mag-Drive--the Mag-Drive just created too much draw. So, placing it between the Mag-Drive and the tank fixed it.



> I looked at the fert injector Naja002 is using, but it appears expensive,


I paid $48.25 for the 3/4gal and $56 for the 3gal (plus Shipping)....Each can be set to dose passed the shelf life of the products. I've seen them for considerably more, so it pays to shop around.



> Between the time, the mess, and the impact on water chemistry and fert levels,


Sounds like You're having as much fun as I have been.....

I'm wondering which valves You ended up buying...? They may have been more expensive, but it may have been well worth the extra expense......


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Naja002 said:


> I'm wondering which valves You ended up buying...? They may have been more expensive, but it may have been well worth the extra expense......


I got these valves (solenoids), the 81NC model. Got one for drain, one for fill - I'll put each on a timer and let it open the normally closed drain/fill line. In the case of the fill timer, I figure I'll leave it on longer than necessary and the pressure switch will turn it off for me.

The decision to get the hard-core solenoids may provide a little comfort, but it has drawbacks.

_Drain/Fill Duration _- these Burkert solenoids only have a 1/8" internal diameter "inner orifice". In other words, the whole process is throttled by a 1/8" opening. It's gonna slow things down.

_Cost and more cost _- they weren't cheap to start with. But after I had them I realized I had to buy four nozzles to attach to the them. And because they stuck out so much it made me too nervous to get plastic (one little SNAP and suddenly WATER EVERYWHERE!), so I sprung for bra$$. And then there was the shielded three conductor cord, and a grounded plug (or two). It all adds up.​
But with a little pressure I should get a decent flow, and they have a really nice SNAP! when they engage. They are heavy as a stone, and seem really, really solid. So we'll see. This is one part of the system I will not be worrying about at night.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

> This is one part of the system I will not be worrying about at night.


Yep. That is what I was getting at about maybe being worth the extra expense....

Just thought I would post an Update:

I really haven't been working on this system much. Been doing other things--some needed, some not...

Spent some time beating myself up doing things to make life harder on myself like installing the Mag-Drive 3 pump inline--*Backwards*--and then trying to figure out: "What's Wrong...?". Sheesh! :hihi: :hihi: :hihi:

So, ultimately, I needed to get away from it for a few. My xP3 has been sucking air, and the research that I've done indicates that its from having too much stuff inline.....So, I am going to remove the xP3 from everything else and run it alone, and then run everything else off the Mag-Drive 3.

Ultimately, the system works. :thumbsup: Its just all the other BS that I've run into that wouldn't necessarily apply to the next person.....

Option A of the Drain End: If You choose to use Steel Wool--_*Beware*_ of Your actual drainage location. The Steel Wool will rust instantly and You will wind up with a large rust spot on your patio, deck, sidewalk, whatever. Drain it into some grass or a flower bed, if possible....


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Naja002 said:


> Option A of the Drain End: If You choose to use Steel Wool--_*Beware*_ of Your actual drainage location. The Steel Wool will rust instantly and You will wind up with a large rust spot on your patio, deck, sidewalk, whatever.


Well it sounds like steel wool is not the best choice of a pre-filter material. I've been worried about that too...

In my case my drain line is on the pressure side of a pump. So my drain line gets the benefit of my normal filtration system, and the drain line should remain reasonably clear.

But my pressure sensor is triggered water entering by a 3/4" clear pipe that sticks up 4" from a bulkhead in the floor of the tank. No water "flows" in or out of the pipe, it just exists to pressurize a water filled tube under the aquarium that is connected to the pressure (water height sensor). But that tube could easily get clogged.

Any ideas on a material that could go into that tube to prevent clogging (by like maybe a snails) without interfering with the pressure reading?

Any and all thoughts most are welcome.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

> Well it sounds like steel wool is not the best choice of a pre-filter material.


Just for the Record, I am using it and suggest it--_*Post-*_Filter. The Outside Drainage End. :thumbsup: Its totally worthless as a Pre-filter.

I'm not sure why a regular strainer would not work, or if You are really concerned--the Tee strainer like I posted before (and below again):











Additionally, You can drill a bunch of holes in that 4" piece of pipe to further hedge Your bet....

Adding a strainer and/or drilling holes will not effect the pressure--which is what You are after... 30ppi filter sponge or filter floss should work without a problem--because there is no "flow" going through..... But I would say that it would increase the risk of clogging over the long haul and really is unnecessary. All You really need is a strainer, or Tee strainer and adding holes to the pipe itself is a good choice.

Putting a cap on the end of the pipe and drilling holes in it (the cap and pipe) are all You would really need to do....

Also, I have been using American Tradition Plastic Enamel and Krylon Fusion Plastic spray paints inside my tank--and they are holding up Very well. I got that from the PT forums here--others have used it long term. So, if You want to Camo it--try Krylon Fusion. Just give it a good 24 hrs or so to dry well before You submerge it.

Pressure and Flow are 2 totally different things. You don't need very much "Unclogged" opening for the switch to be able to read the pressure and do its job. Flow can be hampered much easier. And since there is no flow--there is nothing to "suck" a leaf, etc to block the openings. But, Yes, one good apple snail--at the right time--could cause problems. But even a bunch of ramshorn, etc down in the tube probably wouldn't cause a problem, because the pressure *change* would still get passed them--so to speak...

My suggestion is: Put a strainer on it, drill a bunch of 1/8" holes in the pipe itself, camo it if You want to--and You should be good to go long-term.... :thumbsup: 

HTH


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks for the suggestion Naja002. I saw that diagram from one of your earlier posts. I'm not putting all that crap in the tank. That what this is all about... replenishment/water change without adding anything to the tank.

So I've just crammed a bit of blue coarse filter foam into the bulkhead tube. Seems to be working.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

I've been spending hours and hours on this little problem... countless runs to Home Depot for a part here, and nozzle there...

I figure what I building involved a few semi-independent systems that work together to accomplish in-line, no junk in the tank, water replacement/replenishment:

1) A system to drain the tank when turned on.
2) A system to fill the tank when turned on.
3) A system to detect water level, and turn the above systems on/off as required.
4) A timing system so the systems do not spend the day in a loop of "Too high, so shut off fill and drain now" followed by "Too low, so shut off drain and fill now", and repeated infinitely.
5) A system to inject/mix a dechlorinator in the filling water before it gets to the tank. That way you can add small amounts of water without dosing the entire tank.​

So here's an update on progress:

*System 1 - Electrical Drain *
Built. But not finished. It drains too slow - about 2 hours to drain 1/2 the tank. So thinking about installing an in-line pump to speed things up. The drain line is tapped in the lines after the canister to make sure the water is clean - I don't want anything getting stuck in the solenoid.

*System 2 - Electric Fill *
Built. Pics later. Simple line from house plumbing leading to a solenoid under the stand. Plug the solenoid in and it opens, blasting water into my tank return lines.

*System 3 - Water Level Switch *
Rebuilding. I build an elaborate system with that expensive switch from Omega Electronics. I was having trouble getting it set just right, and in the process of messing with it, I burned it out.:icon_cry: Now it's busted. So I've replaced it with one of my original switches from Aquatic-ecosystems. But if you read my earlier posts, those switches are only good for 50% water changes because their "dead band" is so large. Dead band in a pressure switch is the difference in pressure between sensing a high pressure condition, and a low pressure condition. So I'm trying to get the cheap switch working so I can test all the systems together while I look for a better pressure switch.

*System 4 - Timing System *
Building. I have an X10 controller that controls everything in my tank (except dosing) that I plan to use for this. But all that will do is start the process of drain/fill on a scheduled basis. I still have the problem of interrupting the drain/fill process after the fill. Right now it's _drain-fill-repeat_ as long as the system has power. I want to change that to _drain-fill-stop_. I know how to accomplish that, but it's a bit of an electrical kludge, so I'm exploring things that are not too complex. I want to keep this as simple as possible.

*System 5 - In-line Dechlorination *
Back to the drawing board. I bought a venturi, one of these, to pull a dechlor mix (prime diluted with water) from a big jug into the water fill line, to dechlorinate water as it goes into the tank. But flow ratios, as in _volume of water_ added to _volume of dechlor mix_ added, has been inconsistent. It seems to be very much dependent on the speed of the water flowing through the venturi. In fact, at some speeds (high pressure), it will actually push water from the fill line into the dechlor mix (should be the other way around)! I'm not comfortable with anything that depends on water pressure being constant (yes, I know that can be controlled). It make me nervous, so I'm giving up on the venturi as except possibly as a way to help get dechlor mixed into the water flow. I'm going to find something else to control the rate of mix. Maybe look at Naja002's solution.


I'll post pics as soon I get it all worked out. I figure this is an all or nothing thing. Either it all works together, or you've got nothing. So when I have it all, I'll post pics and plans.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Hey Buddy,

Well, I haven't abandoned You on all this! It may seem like it but I haven't..... :thumbsup: 



> I've been spending hours and hours on this little problem... countless runs to Home Depot for a part here, and nozzle there...


Sounds like You have been having as much fun as I am/was..... :thumbsup: :thumbsup: The satisfaction will make it all worth while _*After*_ its done.

My problems started when I added the 2nd set of valves et al for the 29gal. and added the Mag-Drive pump and then it just became a series of going around in circles--things related and unrelated to the Auto-water change system. But it looks like I finally have it sorted out--Sheesh :icon_roll But that's only on the 55gal.--I haven't incorporated the 29gal. in Yet.

As of today: I am _*Back*_ ( :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: ) at the point of setting my timings and testing the Full-Auto......Finally! Sheesh (<-Yeah, Again!)

But I've also being busy with other stuff--aquarium related and otherwise. I went Pressurized (C02) Yesterday on both my 55 and 29, and moved my DIY Jello setup to my 40gal which I am currently just using as a grow out tank. I've been getting in quite a few plants and just keeping busy all-around. But its given me a pleasant break from the Auto thing--not completely though. I have been working with it as _*needed*_ and desired.

Ok,....



> System 1 - Electrical Drain
> Built. But not finished. It drains too slow - about 2 hours to drain 1/2 the tank. So thinking about installing an in-line pump to speed things up.


I'm not sure what valve You are using for Your drain system, but just keep in mind the Ultimately--You are only going to be able to force so much water through it(either pulling or pushing). In other words, if You are using the 1/8" ID valve--then you can only force X-amount of water through it max, and Your solenoid and pump really should be on the same timer/controller.



> I was having trouble getting it set just right, and in the process of messing with it, I burned it out. Now it's busted.


Sorry to hear that. No way it can be fixed....?



> Right now it's drain-fill-repeat as long as the system has power.


Maybe I am understanding this wrong or what You have going on, but the drain solenoid should have a Timer/controller and the "On" time should be set to take the water level below the "Dead band" then the Timer cuts off power, closes the solenoid and the refill has already started, and just continues until the fill level is reached. The way I understand it: You can still accomplish this with the pressure switches that You have--You just have a much larger Dead Band which requires much larger water changes. If I remember correctly, You purchased 120v solenoids, so an everyday plug in timer should be able to handle that part.



> I have an X10 controller that controls everything in my tank (except dosing) that I plan to use for this.


I would like to try that for aquarium related and other stuff, but I hear a few complaints about reliability, etc. Is Your's wired "directly" or something that doesn't require You to rely upon things receiving signals...? I don't know if You have seen any of these or not, but here are some threads:

x10 Thread 1

x10 Thread 2-Post #7

x10 Thread 3-Post #6

There are more, I just found those real quick with an "x10" search here at PT. I'm not quite sure how much I would trust the x10 system with anything important. I guess I will determine that whenever I get around to researching it in the future.....



> System 5 - In-line Dechlorination


Let me when/if You are ready. The Dechlor Injector that I am using seems to be working 100% fine. And it is not dependent in anyway upon pressure (psi) or Flow rate. In theory, at least, a 3/4gal setup ($50), filled with sufficient Dechlor and set at the 15,000:1 ratio and a 1x/wk-35gal (50%) water change would only last You: 321.5 wks or 6.2 years. But You can also go with ratios as low as 100:1.

I also bought the 3gal version for ferts, but since I haven't been doing the daily water changes--I cannot tell just yet exactly how its doing. That's one of the problems with this as a Fert injector--it requires at least _*Some*_ water to be changed--I only change 4gal/day and have it set (In Theory anyway) to give the daily dose in that 4gal refill. But until I start using it everyday--I won't know if its behaving properly or if my math is off a bit or what.....Getting there--Slowly, but getting there. :thumbsup:

You'll get it all sorted out. I think You are as determined as I am.....

If there is anything that I can help You with--just let me know.....


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Whaaa hoooo! IT WORKS!!!*

Well, it has taken a long, long time. But I finally go it working. 

While my 75g was empty of plants and critters I took the opportunity to work out the kinks. So I finally DIY'ed a reliable, accurate (+/- 1/8"), auto-topoff, auto-water change mechanism that has a really low footprint in the tank, no wires or tubes hanging out of the tank, and removes the chlorine out of the new water at the same time.

Yaaaahoooo! :bounce: 

And this is after several weeks of testing and observation, and 1 week since the final tweak to the system. And though that doesn't sound like much, I've been doing a 50% water change every 2 days for quite a while, many instances of changing 1" of water every day. Works great!

But it wasn't cheap. And it wasn't easy. I am proud to say the only leak I've had so far (and it was a REALLY BIG one) was due to a defective Eheim hobby pump (it leaked!).

So I'll have to start a thread to describe how I did it. But the primary parts list was:

2 X10 Appliance Modules
1 X10 Controller (already had that)
2 RO Canisters
2 Carbon Matrix Block filters (fit the RO Canisters)
1 RO Canister bracket
10 feet RO tubing
10 (approx) John Guest type RO tubing connectors
1 75gph RO restrictor tube
1 1" plumbing saddle valve
1 PVC pipe tap
1 Eheim hobby pump
2 NC Solenoids
5" 1/8" ID tubing
5 misc. hosebarb fittings
2 "T"s to fit Eheim tubing
20 feet 3-lead electrical wire
3 3-lead electrical plugs
1 household plug faceplate
1 electrical junction box
1 fuse holder
1 slo-blow fuse
20" 18 gage solid copper wire
2 small spade plugs (female)
1 NO water pressure sensor
1 DPST micro relay
1 12v power supply (wall wart type)
5" airline tubing
and a bit of solder​
Man. I don't want to add all that up. But I can tell you - having the tank change it's own water is TOO COOL. I'm sure it will take years of time saved before I break even on the time it took to get this working. But when I write it up in a new thread, maybe some of you will benefit instead.

Lemme tell you... not touching the tank to top-off or water change is totally awesome! It took a long time. But I can tell this is gonna be worth it!:biggrin:


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

Interest +1. Look forward to the write up.



scolley said:


> But when I write it up in a new thread, maybe some of you will benefit instead.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*You heard it here first...*

I'm slowly working on the write up. Unfortunately the system is not ultra simple, not the mechanics of it, nor the principles behind what makes it reliable. So a good write up is going to take a while.

But it's working great, and I trust it. So...

I'm going away on vacation in about ten days for two weeks. For those two weeks I intend on leaving my automatic water change system on and operating under a pretty rigorous schedule. I'm not quite sure what that will be yet (I'm breaking in a new tank) but I suspect it will be something like 50% water change every 4 days.

So check back in about 3-4 weeks to see if it floods my house while everyone was away. I'll bet dollars to donuts that it won't.:icon_wink


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I will be watching for your write up. I'm working on a automatic changing system myself now, but a continuous flow one, so I can use some more ideas. I hope your return from vacation brings only good surprises.


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## jay1st (Jan 22, 2006)

Why not titanium electrodes for the water threshold level ?
Just need 3 of them, small,easy to hide on the backside or a corner. You can spred them around, 2 in corner one in the back's middle.

Some electronics required, but easy to make. (I have one)


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

jay1st said:


> Why not titanium electrodes for the water threshold level ?
> Just need 3 of them, small,easy to hide on the backside or a corner. You can spred them around, 2 in corner one in the back's middle.
> 
> Some electronics required, but easy to make. (I have one)


It's a good idea, and I'd love to see someone do that. :thumbsup: It could be really small wires - easy to hide.

But I was aiming for a NO WIRE solution - nothing hanging over the edge of the tank. And I did it. But it WAS hard.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Well, I went off on vacation for just over 2 weeks, and left my auto fill mechanism running in my absence for the duration. I do have to admit, I set it at a water level a few inches lower than I normally keep it. Normally I keep the water level 10 to 15 mm from the top, but in preparing for vacation I got cold feet and set the level to about 100 mm from the top - leaving lots of room for any unexpected errors. I marked the level with a piece of tape, and walked away for 15 days.

When I returned, it was right where I left it. Or more accurately, so close to the tape mark I didn't even bother to measure. It might have been off 1 mm or 2. But certainly no more.

While I was away it drained just over an inch of water from the tank, and refilled back to the level mark four times a day. By my calculations, that's pretty much equivalent to a 50% water change twice a week.

So I'm really happy with the outcome. But the system still requires one last modification to make it perfect.

It drains on a timer, then refills on a timer. And if the refill timer runs too long, I've got a wonderful little water pressure sensor that shuts off the water filling at the perfect level. So when I refill, I have the refill timer go just a wee bit longer than it needs to, letting the senor shut off the filling process instead. That way I know I've always refilled enough. But for the last minute or two of the fill process, when the timer is still on, and the sensor has shut filling down, you can't walk anywhere near the tank. The vibrations in the floor cause ripples in the water, making the sensor go through a rapid on/off/on/off/on/off... cycle. The ripples make the sensor see the tank rapidly switch between full/not-full/full/not-full/full/not-full. And that rapidly turns a relay on an off, which is not only a good bit of racket, but could burn the relay or sensor out eventually - cycling so much, so quickly.

So I've got just a bit more electron work to do to make that stop - already have the part. And then this puppy will be finished!

I'll write up how it all works when it is finished. But I may not give out all the details on the sensor itself. I'm still thinking about whether I want to sell them. :icon_wink


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## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

scolley said:


> But I may not give out all the details on the sensor itself. I'm still thinking about whether I want to sell them. :icon_wink


Nice job, brilliant! I would sell them but keep the price down, have your efforts support your hobby. Another advantage, cuts way down on the PMs when folks try to copy it and it does not work for them........DC


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

DiabloCanine said:


> . Another advantage, cuts way down on the PMs when folks try to copy it and it does not work for them........DC


:hihi: Now that's funny. But it also brings up why I probably will not try to sell them. I don't what to hear from someone's lawyer when they don't set it up right.

Or even worse, when what I sell them actually fails - nothing works for ever. And nothing mass produced works as expected every time. Make enough of anything, and one of them is going to malfunction. Which in this case could lead to an indoor flood.

But I doubt the market is very big anyway. There is NO WAY I could sell the sensor for less than 75-100 bucks. Parts cost too much. And then for someone to use it correctly, they've got to have multiple timers, and solenoids, chlorine filters, and patches into their plumbing. All that adds up. To do this right, like I think I've done, you've got to be ready to drop between $300 and $500. And I'm just not convinced there is a very big market for that. Especially when the need goes away if you are willing to setup an overflow and a sump.

No I suspect the market is kinda small.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*How it works...*

I'm not ready to do a full write-up on functionality yet. If I do it, I'd kinda like to do it right. But if anyone is curious as to how this works roughly, go over to my "Kahuna's Revenge" thread. If you flip through it until you get to the pics of my stand, how this works is sort of touched on in the stand description, and gets fleshed out a little better over the following ten or fifteen posts.


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

*a little late*

Well Steve, I haven't read the entire post but I did just run across something and I thought you might be interested (if someone hasn't already mentioned it) and that was this:

JBJ A.T.O. - Automatic Top Off System Water Level Controller Information

The JBJ ATO controller...isn't this what you're basically looking for? I found the following picture of the diagram of its various set up options...


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

styxx1 said:


> Well Steve, I haven't read the entire post but I did just run across something and I thought you might be interested...


Thanks for the suggestion pal. But I've researched this stuff pretty well, and have seen that and some similar contraptions. Those are what I would classify as "stuff hanging into the tank, and over the sides".

I've done this with a hole trough the bottom of the tank, sensing the water pressure invisibly through that hole. Nothing over the side, practically nothing visible.

Thanks though.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Trouble in Paradise...*

I had been planning to post my schematics of this system by now. But I haven't because it just is not working to my satisfaction. Bummer. I even went to the trouble to draw the schematics and everything!

As I've mentioned previously, as the fill gets toward the end of the fill cycle, minor vibrations will cause the unit to rapidly turn on/off. I have run through goodness only knows how much circuitry to eliminate this. I could write pages on this problem. The bottom line is, I can't create circuitry that eliminates this flutter AND is highly accurate (and repeatable) to the exact same fill shut off point. I've got to keep working on it.

This would not be such a problem if it wasn't for the fact that I want it to be very, very reliable, and fill the tank right up to the rim. But I do.

Also, I've recently put discus in my tank. So frequent large water changes are the order of the day until I get things balanced better, and the discus fully acclimated.

So I've ripped out all the "anti-flutter" circuitry, and am resorting to a couple large water changes every night (4" drop then fill). This could be accomplished by many small changes through out the day - (1/2" drop then fill) but the fluttering caused by walking across the room would drive me nuts. Better to do some big changes while I'm sleeping.

I'll get this flutter problem solved eventually. It doesn't hurt anything, or risk reliability. It's just annoying. And solving it will have to wait until I get these discus settled. But I WILL solve it. And post the solution.


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## nater3 (Nov 6, 2004)

I know you are mostly done this project but the Linux Powered Beer Fridge may be of some interest to you.
I'm sure some of its features could be adapted to your needs.
It uses this to track how much beer has been consumed.
Wouldn't be affected by vibration. $39 each.
Anyways. Need 2 solenoids. 
You could have solenoid A for water drain directed by software to open for X flowmeter ticks. (2200 ticks per liter.) And solenoid B open for X many flowmeter ticks to refill.
Just a thought.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

nater3 said:


> I know you are mostly done this project but the Linux Powered Beer Fridge may be of some interest to you.
> I'm sure some of its features could be adapted to your needs.
> It uses this to track how much beer has been consumed.
> Wouldn't be affected by vibration. $39 each.
> ...


And a GREAT thought it is! Thanks!

It does not accommodate for evaporation (a bit factor in on open top tank in a dry heated room in the winter time). But that might be accommodated in other ways.

2 very nice solenoids I've got now. Gonna have to look into this! Thanks!


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

Just my 2cents worth Steve, but I have almost the same solenoid valves as the two you bought and they are great. I use them on my CO2 and the snap is loud enought to let me know they're working and the one I have has a little red LED that is on when it's open and goes off when its closed (i.e. when the lights go off from the timer) and I'm sure you'll get your $$ worth over time. They are really reliable...can't wait to see the write up when you finish this project!


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## |GTO| (Oct 9, 2006)

i have an idea. your bulkheads are assumingly on the bottom right? (didnt read the whole thread unfortunately, only the first 2 pages so far)

what about a design like this?








[/URL][/IMG]

I figured that since water in a 'u' column can not go any higher than the current water level, even when one side of the tube is much smaller, this would work.

In any case, there is nothing showing inside or hanging on/in the tank.

+++ you can still utilize your existing bulkheads and still do automatic waterchanges via a timer and solenoid valve in place of the ball valve which
is inline with the tube.

just a thought** maybe it'll help you out!!

I couldnt figure a way to incorporate the pressure switches however. Just think, an auto water changer that fills from the bottom!! **nothing gets disturbed by massive water flow**

might be a crappy idea but i thought it would work.

cheers,


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*jdb416 *- Man! I hate that you went to all that work! I mean, I DO appreciate it! Thank you. It's just that it doesn't help.

It's a good design. It would work IMO. But early on I rejected any solution that required an external column of water like that. And that solution has some other problems that I've discovered, I just haven't written up yet. Thanks for posting that though!

*styxx1 *- You are right pal, those solenoids are great. I am absolutely not worried about those failing. My discus took a while getting used to that "snap!" sound. It is loud in a quiet tank. But they do work very, very well.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Don't Need More Help On This One...*

BUT MAYBE I CAN HELP YOU WITH SOME OF WHAT I'VE LEARNED
Just an update folks. I've got a solution. It's been working for months. But I'm still shaking bugs out. I've already written up the little problem associated with the rapid fire on/off fluttering caused by floor vibrations when the tank hits the full condition, but the timers are still powering the fill solenoid. There are other problems I'm working on too. I'll get it all worked out. But I'm finding that there are a lot of little gremlins out there, waiting to bite you just when you think you've got it.

So I'm holding off on my write up.

I have started to structure my how I hope to document what I've learned. Posted below is how it begins, based on what I've learned so far. It could be months before I'm ready to post the final stuff. So here is the teaser...



*Automatic Water Change - A Structured Approach**

Intro*
There is lots and lots of chatter out there at the moment about automatic water changing and top-off. And there are a number of people that are waiting on my long overdue write-up of my DIY solution. But that is a work in progress, and it is clearly going to be so long before it is perfect IMO, so I'm writing up what I've learned to date. I'll document the final system when all the bugs are out.

To make it easier for me to get my heads around the many different aspects of such a system, I've broken it up into a number of easily digestible pieces, organizing the information into sub-systems and critical attributes. If you are thinking about building such a system, breaking it up into these separate pieces might help clarify your thinking about it. It should certainly should help you better understand the impact it will have on your tank, and what risks you might be undertaking.


*Sub Systems*
Most water change "systems" are a combination of multiple sub-systems that work together, providing a comprehensive solution. I think those sub-systems are typically: drain, fill, water treatment, water storage, and automation. I am not going to try to discuss every option for implementing each of these sub-systems - I'm not qualified to do that. Instead I'll break the description of my solution up into these sub-systems.


*Critical Attributes*
Any solution, built from multiple pseudo-independent sub-systems will have any number of critical attributes. I believe there is a short list of attributes that must be well understood to have a successful Automatic Water Change system. Those critical attribute are: maintenance requirements, drain/fill capacity, drain/fill schedule, drain/fill duration, water replenishment rate, water temp impact, water pH impact, water hardness impact, fert ppm impact. And of course there is my favorite critical factor: fault tolerance.​


To be continued in a few months. I suppose the only reason I'm tossing this out now, is because if you are considering building such a solution, and you do not fully understand the "critical attributes" for your system, you're potentially headed for serious trouble. They are bear understanding before you start. I've learned that the hard way.


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## Jackfrost (Jan 8, 2005)

Steve

How have you been ?

Long time since I posted to you.

I think you are on travel somewhere this month.

Anyway, I have been reading you threads (I see you have been busy !), with great excitment.

I am in the process of getting my 90 G into setup. I have alll the stuff I need plus some. I will be going for a Discus tank also.

Yours looks great by the way !

I am very interetsed in you auto water changer with that pressure sensor.

Any updates on the design ?

Nick


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Jackfrost said:


> Steve
> 
> How have you been ?
> 
> ...


Hey Nick, long time no hear. Good luck with that 90g Discus tank!

I just got back, and really need to document my autowater change. It does work like I originally planned it - water pressure senor through the bottom of the tank, working as a shut-off to the fill process. It's pretty simple really. But I've been though a lot of iterations. Now it finally works great.

I had had an electrical junction box, sporting an AC socket in front, that you plugged the fill components into. And it had a airline tube (filled with water) that plugged into the pressure sensor in that box, with the other end plugged into a bulkhead mount on the underside of the tank. In my tank return lines I have two "T"'s - one to drain water, one to fill. They both are turned on and off by solenoid. And the solenoids are on times.

So, if the timers are set correctly, a couple of times a day the drain solenoid clicks open, and allow water to drain out for and hour or so. The timer snaps that closed, and another timer opens to allow tap water in. That too is on a timer. And it is set so that the refill time is just barely more than necessary - potentially bringing the water a small fraction of an inch higher than it was previously. That's were the sensor kicks in.

The fill solenoid was plugged into the aforementioned junction box with AC socket. And a minute or two before the fill solenoid is shut off by its timer, the pressure sensor can tell it's full, and shuts off the AC power to the socket, killing power to the fill solenoid, shutting the fill line.

This means that if I'm losing water to evaporation, those few extra fill minutes - that usually get cut off because the water is high enough - get accommodated for. The idea is to have the fill timer set so that if I didn't even use a pressure sensor for cut-off, the water level would only creep up a little bit every day. So you get a visual warning, even if the sensor fails.

As it is, the sensor keeps the water within a 1/4" or so of the same place - day in and day out. Between the fill timer and the senor, one of them is going to keep me from flooding the house.

There are several things in the system that complicate this. First water temperature. The water coming in is cold - too cold for discus. So I had to put a second hydor in-line heater on the tank. Before this system I could maintain discus temps with a single 250w hydor. But now I've got an additional 350 watt to keep water changes from chilling the tank.

Second, I have to do chlorine removal. That's easily done with a couple of in-line carbon matrix filters, set between the line from the tap, and the "T" taking tap water into the tank's return lines.

Third, draining is really slow. The diameter of my drain lines, coupled with the tiny 1/8" opening on my solenoid means my drain line has to be pressurized to flow decently. So when my drain timer turns on the drain solenoid, I also have to turn on an Eheim hobby pump (in line with the drain line) to boost drain pressure - otherwise it would take forever. This same narrow solenoid opening, and narrow fill lines is less of a problem on the fill side because the tap water is decently pressurized.

And fourth and last, hysteresis has been my major nemesis. As I understand it, hysteresis is that set of factors that limit/drive when the sensor switches power on and off. The first type of hysteresis problem is called "dead band". That is a pressure range that has to be exceeded for the state of the sensor to change.

In other words, if a pressure sensor had a deadband of 20% of the "set pressure" (a common deadband value BTW) it would mean this - if the pump is set to trigger at 30" (turning a circuit off for instance), then you could lower the water 1" or 2", and the pressure sensor would remain off. It would not turn your power on, even though the water level had dropped. A deadband of 20% setpoint means, in this example, that you have to drop the water AT LEAST 6" (20% of 30") before it would switch on again. So every water change has to be at least 6".

I got around that by finding a sensor that was very sensitive - extremely low deadband. So I've barely got to lower the water at all -1/64" maybe - before it is willing to flip the switch and raising it again.

But with a lower deadband sensor, I ran into a new problem - rapid cycling. So now I can do small water changes, but as the water reaches the full condition, someone walking across the room creates enough vibration that the sensor rapidly cycles through an on/off/on/off condition. And as the fill cycle approached a full point, as long as the fill timer was putting power on the fill process, this would be a problem. No one could walk across the room for the last few minutes of the fill process, without causing the sensor going nuts, trying to figure out if it was full or not. With a bigger deadband you don't have this problem. Once it senses full - even for a split second - it can't be convinced it's not full until you drain out a lot of water again. And that rules out small water changes.

At long last, I've got it all sorted out now. I had to buy an Aquacontroller Jr. though to make it finally work right. The AC jr. replaced my fill and drain timers. That's not such a big deal. But it also let me remove the electrical junction box that the drain solenoid plugged into.

Now I've got my sensor wired directly in to my AC jr. The AC jr times the fill and drain cycles, and turning on/off my fill and drain solenoids as required. And with the sensor wired to the sensor, the AC jr can now tell when the senor senses a full condition, and so the AC jr is programmed to shut off the fill solenoid when that happens. This would still be subject to the rapid on/off cycling problem from floor vibrations but the AC jr has a hysteresis function! That's one of the main reasons why I bought it. So now I can set the AC jr to a 1 minute hysteresis. In this case that means, if it turns off, then stays off for 1 minute before turning on again. In my case, that is enough for someone to have finished walking across the room. And if they are still walking around, that's cool too. It'll just keep turning on, and then off (from the vibrations) once a minute until the people stop walking around, or until the timer on the fill process stops. Now this could leave me a few tiny fractions of an inch from full. But because I have the timer set to fill just a bit more than needed, that tiny gap will be made up within a day.

Wow. Sorry for the long post. Now I need to follow up with pictures.

Works like a charm now - just like I always wanted - no crap in the tank, nothing hanging over the edge or at the top of the water, all the new equipment hidden in the stand, and allowing me to do multiple small water changes through out the day! Too cool!

I'll post pics soon I hope.


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## hello1 (Feb 13, 2007)

*I also faced the same prob*

Some time back i also faced the same problem i wanted to add 5g of water to my tank as it emptied on an average of 2.5 hrs and was looking for a solution badly but couldn't figure it out myself, i found a solution in this water level controllers, i dropped a mail to this website telling my problem and they replied me with a example movie diagram of installation and working and told me how i can custom arrange it according to my need i think i may save a lot of time and its pretty economical, 150 bucks i think the whole system is worth the money compared to the cost of the switches u installed this page has the installation and working movie at the bottom


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks for the link hello1. And welcome to PT!

But I think you are missing the point. There are hundreds of water level controllers on the market. Maybe thousands. I was looking for a control function that is fairly unique... one that can detect water depth WITHOUT any sensors in the tank, or be otherwise visible, and that can be afforded by mere mortals.

And I succeeded. Now I just need to post pics.


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## hello1 (Feb 13, 2007)

*congratulations for making the replenishment control*

i know its a DIY kinda project but i think u have spent a lot more than me on this, well ur work would be cool cause there will be practically nothing visible in the tank but one of my friend had automated his tank with transparent float switch and the single wire is going out through the bottom and is hidden in the plantation as the float switch goes down the fresh water tap fills the tank the sensor being lifted stops the flow its cool, and it costed him only 38 bucks, waiting for u to post the pics :icon_idea


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## PDX-PLT (Feb 14, 2007)

Greetings Steve!

First post on this forum. I've really enjoyed all your posts. A a techie myself this one particularly is very interesting.

I wonder if you could solve the "deadband" problem with a second solenoid, to "reset" the pressure switch.

In other words, one could have two drainage solenoids, in series. Solenoid #1 goes between the bulkhead and the pressure switch; solenoid #2 goes from the pressure switch to the drain (i.e, the pressure switch is on a "T" between solenoids #1 & #2).

To drain, you open both #1 and #2 simultaneously for the required period of time. When that time is up, close #1 only. This should reset the pressure switch, as it is exposed to the atmosphere, and turn on the fill pump. Then close #2 and open #1, and the pressure switch will shut off when the proper level is reached.


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## essabee (Oct 7, 2006)

This is too long I could not through it entirely 

May I suggest a 'new' approach:angryfire 

First fill a fixed volume from a measured sump then drain to the desired top level.:icon_bigg 

The caged bear got bored walking to and fore, for a change he started walking fore and to.:icon_cool 

I think this should work-no funning- easier to handle.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*hello1 *- your friend's approach sounds fine. Thought about something like that myself. But it does not solve my problem. Your friend still had a float he had to hide. Actually, I had to hide something myself - the little open tube at the bottom of the tank. But a little tube at the bottom should be a lot easier to hide than a float on the surface.

*PDX-PLT* - Welcome to PT! Great first post too, IMO!

I thought about something like this early one, but could not really get my head around it. You have certainly clarified how something like that might work. Thanks. Good thinking!

This potentially eliminates the deadband problem. Cool! But unfortunately the size of the deadband seems also to correspond to the sensitivity of the pressure sensor. I didn't mention this earlier, but the sensors with large deadband also had large variance between the points they considered "full". So I really abandoned those not only because of the dead band size, but because of their lack of accuracy too.

Sorry. I should have mentioned that. Good solution though! roud: 

*essabee *- Sorry pal. By definition I'm trying to do something hard here. That's why it has its own thread.


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## essabee (Oct 7, 2006)

scolley;374249SNIP
[B said:


> essabee [/B]- Sorry pal. By definition I'm trying to do something hard here. That's why it has its own thread.


....and I thought that you have nearly solved all except getting back to topped-up position and made a suggestion. *Sorry man.*


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

OK folks, heads up!

I know I haven't posted my full, functional setup plans. But it WORKS. Works like a charm in fact. 

I'm posting now because I just got a notice from Digikey, the only people that I can find that distribute these little water pressure sensors in small volumes. Apparently they are being made obsolete.

So if you want one - get them now. I just bought 5.

Here's a link.

Get 'em before they are gone. At $15 you are never going to see an opportunity like this. I spent a couple of hundred on other sensors before I found this cheap, accurate little jewel. And now apparently they are disappearing.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Conclustion to my problem*

When I started this thread I was struggling to find a way to top off/refill a tank without putting visible equipment in the tank. And for me, that inlcuded running anything up the side/back of the tank that could be seen.

I experiemented with lots of pressure switches, but only the one from my last post worked well for me.

Here's a pic of it mounted under my tank.










It's a simple contraption really. I have a hole drilled in the bottom of my tank that has the PVC you see mounted under the bulkhead hardware attached to that hole. Above the bulkhead (in the tank) is a simple slip fitting nozzle with a bit of tubing attached. Over that tubing is a bit of hard filter foam. That keeps snails and such from going in the tubing.

Water pressure comes through that nozzle in the tank, through the hole in the glass, into the PVC you see in this picture. From there - as you can see - the water pressure can be detected by the little sensor shown.

The sensor has two wires that close a circuit when it detects a certain level of water. The level can be adjusted with a little trim screw that is just barely visible in the front of the sensor in this pic. It takes a tiny screwdriver.  

And it's a PITA to set, because a tiny fraction of a turn of that screw, and you'll change the level of the tank by an inch or two. But once you get it set at the right level, it's solid as a rock.

Anyway, I've got a fill system that first opens a drain (on a soleniod) for a timed period every night. And then a different solenoid opens that allows water from my household tap into my tank lines. This continues on a timer for a set period of time. All that is controlled by an AquaController III.

When this sensor detects enough water pressure to know that the tank is full, the sensor closes the circuit. The two wires you can see in this pic run to the Aquacontroller, which senses the closed circuit. I've got logic in the Aquacontroller that says... "Even if the time to fill the aquarium is not finished, if you see that the circuit has closed, cut off power to the solenoid that's letting water flow into the tank."

Simple really. And the Aquacontroller has a hysterisis function that takes care of my old problem of people walking across the room, making the sensor go haywire if it was near a full condition - with ripples in the surface making it read "on/off/on/off/on/off... " in rapid succession. With the controllers hysterisis function, I've got it set so that if it detect a full condition (possibly caused by someone walking across the room) and closes the circurit, it stays in that closed condition for a full minute before it will turn on again.

A little complicated. But not too bad. And works like a charm - with two mechanisms working together, providing me redundent assurances that I won't over-fill my tank. First - the fill is on the timer I mentioned before. And just in case the fill time is too long, this little beauty of a sensor shuts the fill off if it gets too full anyway.

Problem solved! Automatic water changes every day, and no equiptment to be seen in the tank! Cool.

Thanks for all the help. :icon_bigg


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## bpimm (Aug 2, 2007)

Sweet system,

As I read this thread today I was thinking how to solve your problem, and by the end you had already got there. Great job. the only thing I would have done differently is to have the pressure transducer run the fill valve and reset upon the full state to eliminate the flutter problem. but you got it.

All of my tanks use an overflow and constant inflow to accomplish the same thing, but that requires a standpipe in the tank which is against your goals.

once again, nicely done

Brian


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks Brian. And overflow and standpipe (with a sump) will do exactly the same thing. I just got jones for solving the "nothing you can see in the tank problem", and wouldn't let it go until I beat it.

And honestly, I didn't actually succeed completely. I do have a tube that protrudes out of the tank floor, with the bit of filter foam on the open end. It's small, and real easy to hide. But technically it is not "nothing" in the tank. But it seems a small compromise.

Thanks for the feedback!


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