# Phosphates?



## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

I know you just posted a great deal but a couple more pieces of information would help us help you. 
How big is your tank?
What fertilizer are you using?
Have you tested for Nitrates and Ammonia?
How often do you feed and what do you feed?
Why is your pH so high, is it your tap water or do you have something in the tank that is keeping it up there?

I or someone else will think of another half dozen questions to ask you.

I hope you didn't thow away your anubius, it is probably still possible to save it.


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## Minders (Aug 1, 2003)

Erm... I *did* throw away the anubias. All three of 'em.  I just couldn't get that very dark green stuff off. Even if I managed to get the fur off, there was still like a crusty, very dark green coating on the leaves which made it impossible for light, etc, to get to the leaves. They were all just curling under and dying. I did replace them with a new one that is quite big to take their space up. I figured as they were in the centre of tank, they were in the strongest light spot, thus the algae. So I moved the new one to under my giant sword plant and so far it looks OK.

Tank info: 60 US Gallons, Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates - varies. Comes out of the tap at 20ppm, but does go down in the tank due to the plants. My pH is 7.8 because we have very hard water here. I have no rocks or anything in my tank that would raise my pH. Just bogwood, sand and plants - nothing has made it go down, not CO2, not Blackwater extract, nothing. I guess I should be grateful it's steady and doesn't fluctuate all over the place. As far as plant food, I think it's Hagen Plant Gro, liquid feed.

Feeding - sometimes Aquarian Tropical Flakes, sometimes bloodworms, sometimes Daphnia. I alternate between them for good variety. I probably feed about 4-5 times a week. Oh, and a spider or fly if I get hold of a small one, just for fun!


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Ok another annoying question with no answer attached to it....sorry...I'm not familiar with the Hagen Plant Gro, could you tell me what they list as ingredients? 

In a low light tank like yours, 1 watt per gallon, you only need a little CO2 to have an effect on the plants but with the pH of your water so high I'm not sure any of the CO2 is reaching the plants, I think it is just getting lost in the buffering capacity of your water. How often do you change water?

It would be hard to have a phosphate problem, with your tap running 20 ppm of nitrate. Usually the phosphate becomes a problem when you run out of nitrogens for the plants. You get them from water changes. Does your water company supply a water analysis?


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## Minders (Aug 1, 2003)

Ready? Nutrafin (Hagen) Plant Gro:

Guaranteed Analysis:
- Total Nitrogen (N): 0.15% 
--0.15% Water Soluble Organic Nitrogen (Cheleated agent) 
- Iron (Fe): 0.26%
-- 0.26% Chelated Iron
- Manganese (Mn): 0.05%
-- 0.05% Chelated and soluble Manganese
- Zinc (Zn): 0.003%
-- 0.003% Chelated Zinc
- Boron (B): 0.0005%
- Copper (Cu): 0.0005%
-- 0.0005% Chelated Copper
- Molybdate (Mo): 0.0007%
-- 0.0007% Chelated Molybdate

I change my water sometimes once a week, or sometimes I get lazy and leave it for 2 weeks. If I'm changing more often, I take out and replace around 10 litres, if it's a longer time, I'll do 20 litres. I've been trying to the 20 litre changes recently as I seem to have a recurring problem with hole in the head on my Rams. With my parameters checking OK, and I know that my tank hygiene is good, all I can do is change the water to keep it extra clean and hope for the best.

So if, say, phosphates aren't a problem... I wonder what is? Why is my tank getting hairy?

I have seen my nitrates go down to trace levels, but I've never seen them disappear altogether. There are twice as many plants now as when I did that reading, so perhaps it would be prudent to take another reading now.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

You should increase your light. With that low light level the growth of your plants is very slow, which will give algae some advantage. At the same time, increasing your CO2 injection would make a big difference with the hard water you have.

10 liters weekly water change would be 2.5 gal, which is not enough for a 60 gal tank. Depending on your fishes, you should aim for about 25% weekly water change, which would be 15 gal = 60 liter --> 6 times more than you do now. This will refresh the nutrient levels and remove stuff that accumulates in your tank. Both plants and fish will like it...

Check your tap water NO3 again, and also keep monitoring them in the tank.

I think it would make sense to test phosphates, not because you might have too high levels, but you might need to add them. The recommendation is NO3 to PO4 about 10:1, and if you say keep your levels around 10ppm NO3 you should try to get 1ppm of PO4, and perhaps that is where you are falling short...


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## Minders (Aug 1, 2003)

That's very interesting, and helpful. Thanks!

So, after all that fuss... I'm still not sure where phosphates actually come into the equation. What is their purpose in the whole cycle of things? Like I know that plants need nitrogen for leaf growth, and potassium for fruiting and flowering, etc. What exactly is phosphate?

It's funny. In the year or so that I've been doing this tank, I have learned an immeasurable amount... and then suddenly, I realise I don't know much at all! But that's what makes life interesting I suppose! :wink:


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Phosphates are needed by any growing plant or animal. Phosphates are considered one of the three macro nutrients NPK... 
Do a little google to learn about what phosphates and phosphorous are and how they are used for what where...


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## tombsc (Nov 24, 2003)

I'll bet your Phosphates out of the tap are the same as mine. 2ppm in the tapwater in Bath - and I've got the same algal problems you described. Last night it p****d me off so much I butchered most of my Swords :roll:


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## Minders (Aug 1, 2003)

So, with hard water and 20ppm nitrates coming out the tap, SHOULD I be testing for phosphate or not? Will it make any difference?


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## Ace (Dec 10, 2003)

phosphate and nitrate is the cause of the algae blooming in your tank. 
Get those 0 and youre on!
Stronger light and Co2 injection is also appreciated.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Actually reducing nitrates and phosphates should not be at 0. Reducing them to 0 will lead to many other problems.


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## Minders (Aug 1, 2003)

I've never seen my nitrates at 0ppm. They've been pretty low (what with the plants doing their thing), but never zero. I would imagine mine go down to <10ppm, but my test kit isn't any more specific than that.


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## wonder woman (Oct 30, 2003)

I don't think stronger lighting is necessarily the answer. I've got a 30g (U.S.) lit with 2 x 30 watt aqua-glo lights- about twice as much light per gallon as Minders. And I have THE EXACT SAME KINDS OF ALGAE AND ALGAE PROBLEMS AS HE DOES. No ammonia, no nitrites, 5-10 ppm of nitrates (negligible), pH around 8.2 (we've got hard water in L.A. too). But I do think adding more light might HELP both of us.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Ok after reading everyone's responses I think I might want to suggest a course of action. At 1 watt per gallon your light is so low that your plants are growing slowly. However, if you just increase the light you are going to run into a worse algae bloom. You need to increase both the CO2 levels and the light levels. You really should double your lighting to the tank, I understand the idea of plants growing ok the way they are, that's what I did for a long time myself. The plants you picked can tolerate low light but they flourish under brighter light. 

Anyhow, what this will do is start the engine of the best nutrient sequestor in your tank, the plants. The only way you are going to beat the algae is to get the plants to do it for you. The key is that you need to be patient, the algae is gonna get worse before it gets better if you do what I suggested. What's happening is the plants have to change their "metabolism" to work with the higher CO2 and light levels, oh if your crypts all melt when you increase the light, don't worry about it, they are just switching to leaves that are better suited to higher light levels. Once the plants complete the switch over they well start to out-compete the algaes. Lets just say mechanical removal of the algae won't hurt at this point.

Another thing to try is to create green water in the tank. The water column algae can suck all the nutrients out of the water leaving the epiphytic algae with nothing to work with. Several people I know have done this and swear by it now. I haven't had to try it yet, though I do run a ten gallon tank green for the baby shrimp.


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## Minders (Aug 1, 2003)

How do you make green water? I've never had anything other than clear water, even when I was cycling! Sounds interesting...


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

More light would be a good start, I always manage to trigger it in my ten gallon shrimp only tank by adding phosphate with the fertilizers. I let it run like that a couple weeks, let it build up a good population of daphnia. Then I start changing water with the other tanks, the infusion of "plankton" seems to encourage spawning. The other tanks never go green however.


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## Minders (Aug 1, 2003)

Now it's getting interesting. I went out today to buy a phosphate test kit, and "just ask about" bolstering my lighting. Of course, they put in my hand the answers to my prayers and one impulse purchase later, I have the proper aquarium fittings for two more bulbs. So by the end of tomorrow, I will have 120 watts of light instead of 60. Hooray!

Also, I tested the phospate of my water and got quite a shock. It registered at 5, the highest end of the scale :shock: . So I measured my tap water to see if it was just an organic waste problem in the tank, and my tap water measured just as high. Then I tested some water from the Brita water filter, and even _that_ water had a substantial phosphate reading! So... I guess I'm beginning to discover part of the cause of my algae problems.

So now that I know that I have to constantly work at keeping the phosphate levels down in my tank, I went back out and bought one of those Phos-sorb sachets and have now installed that in my tank. I will take another reading tomorrow morning and see if it's helping yet. 

I'm worried that with high levels of phosphate, and plants that are currently growing quite slowly, that when I suddenly turn on 120 watts of light, my tank will turn into a giant block of green slime. Any ideas on what to expect? And what to do? Thanks in advance! :wink:


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## DLeDeaux (Dec 27, 2002)

It's always difficult to predict the outcome of a change to a tank. Doubling your wattage without getting the phosphate levels down could lead you to witness your first case of green water.

At the very least you have armed yourself with knowledge now and you *know* what is going on with your tank. Now you can make more informed decisions on the direction you want to go.


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## lanstar (Nov 29, 2002)

On the Phosphate:
Yes, yes... Now that you have your kits, try to get your nitrate/phosphate levels where you want them (5-10/.5-1) before adding the light.

If your tap water has 5 ppm phosphate, and you let the phos-guard/plants use up the phosphate in the tank, then I'd suggest doing small partial water changes in the future. Theoretically, if phosphate in the tank was zero, a 10% water change would bring tank phosphate levels to .5 ppm. 20% would get you to 1 ppm. So you'd probably want to limit any single water change to 20% or less (with straight tap water)... then give the plants time to use some of the phosphate up before changing water again.

On the new lights:
Plants produce chloroplasts (the structures that use light to make sugars) in relation to the available light. If a plant has been in dim light, it will have made lots of chloroplasts. When you double the light, the plants may go into "overdrive" - having too many chloroplasts for the new light level. Crypts have been known to melt and grow new leaves in situations like this, for example. Well meaning people can sometimes literally "burn up" certian varieties of house plants by taking them outside in direct sunlight for extended periods due to this same effect.

Maybe you might consider not kicking in all the extra light all at once? I don't know if your setup would permit that. In any event, you'll have an interesting learning process - adjusting your fertilization routine - with the added illumination. You may have a battle or two with algae, but in the long run - with patience and monitoring - I'm sure you'll be happy with the results.

Good luck!

Tim


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## Minders (Aug 1, 2003)

I'm beginning to wonder just how high my phospates actually are. The test only goes up to 5. I've had the phos-sorb in there for two days and there's been no change. I wonder how far off the scale the phosphate in my tank is! I also tested the tap water AND the Brita filter water and all measure the same. :? 

I haven't put the lights on yet, but when I do, I will do it gradually. Thanks for the advice. 8) My instincts told me it would be a bad idea with all those phosphates in there. Plus, I've spoken with a friend and fellow fish enthusiast and between us, we're going to design and build a new tank hood to house all those lights a bit better than if I just added them to my current hood. So there should be time to try and address the phosphates problem before the lights get switched on. Phew!

I did a whole series of tests this weekend to really get a good idea of what's going on. I tested my tank several times (day and night) and I tested the water from the tap and I even tested the water from the Brita water filter. I got some very surprising results.

My tank is, as ever, stable. Zero Ammonia and Nitrites, pH still at 7.8, Nitrates around 20-30. That part is OK. What was puzzling was, although my tank is, and has always been pH 7.8, when I measured the water from my tap, it was only 7.0. I did this test twice, once at night and once in the morning. My tank has no rocks in it, or anything that could cause this. Just silica sand, plants, bogwood and fish. *WHERE* is the raised pH coming from???????? The only other additive is the dechlorinator (Tetra Aquasafe). I don't know if this could raise my pH, but I don't see why it would.

Anyway, the end result of all this is that I've decided to start getting RO water from my trusty aquarium shop. They mix all the minerals, etc, back into that it needs to make it stable and good for the fish/plants, so it's just good water. No nonsense. And it's only like £3 (about $5?) for 25 litres. Which should do for a couple small water changes. I'm going to save up for my own RO unit and continue that way eventually. I know it's a fuss, but considering all the hidden nasties in my water and the problems I am trying to address, it just seems the best solution overall. Any thoughts?


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## tombsc (Nov 24, 2003)

Off topic and I apologise...
Minders, can you recommend me a good LFS ? The ones I use looked at me like I was an alien when I enquired about CO2. 
"What - CO2 in the tank?!"
Thanks


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## Minders (Aug 1, 2003)

Yes I certainly can. And happy to do it. If you just go straight up the (A4) Bath Road towards Bristol, just before the Park & Ride in Brislington on the left hand side is Wyevale Garden Centre. Go in the shop and, right at the back, is a totally separate shop called Maidenhead Aquatics (the sign outside might still read Bristol Waterworld or something like that, I think). They are the biz as far as fish are concerned. You will know from the minute you walk in and see their tanks. Most of the guys in there can help with most things, but there are a few that stand out above the rest IMO - and they are Nathan, Jason and Dave. Top guys and a top shop. And they stock CO2 units - various kinds. And can give you advice about them too. I wouldn't buy fish from anywhere else. 8)


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## tombsc (Nov 24, 2003)

Thanks for that..
I was hoping you knew of somewhere else though. I've been there and agree they have a nice selection. Unfortunately, while there my car was broken into and I was told by the staff that it happens at least twice a week in their car park - hence I haven't gone back.
I also have many more gripes with them and their 'knowledge' which I won't be posting. 
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to respond  
Tom


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## Minders (Aug 1, 2003)

Oh, sorry to hear that. I guess because my car's old, no-one bothers! Didn't know they had that problem...

There is a new place that has opened up on Two Mile Hill in Kingswood. I believe they're called Total Control. I went in there the other day (to buy that Phos-sorb) and I have to say, his tanks looked really good. And he had a comprehensive selection of other things that most local shops don't carry. Apart from Maidenhead, it's probably the only other place I've been where I truly felt the shopkeeper(s) really cared about their tanks. Maybe try there?

I would avoid Cadbury Garden Centre, despite their cheery adverts. Their fish are a bit ropey (tons of white spot in their tanks) and the staff don't seemed to know much either. In fact, apart from Maidenhead and that place in Kingswood, most other places I've been to in Bristol truly horrified me.

I have had some place in Weston-Super-Mare suggested to me (can't remember the name but it's just off the Boulevard apparently). I keep meaning to go there and check it out, but finding the motivation to go out to Weston, especially this time of year... Well.... :wink:


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## tombsc (Nov 24, 2003)

Thanks again for the help, I'll try to check out Total Control sometime. I find Cadbury are good for equipment - deffo not livestock. Jarretts (Near Bitton)also are OK for equipment. Most of the livestock they have is well dodgy though.
Again, sorry for hijacking your post..


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## Minders (Aug 1, 2003)

No probs! And if I find another place I'm impressed with, I'll try to remember to let you know! 8)


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Its so sad that nice LFS are so few and far between, I now routinely drive a 50km round trip past at least 5 petshops to go to SAM's hey the guy can drive a bargain, went there on saturday to get 1 Millenium cartridge, walked out with 4, hagen diffuser, a powerhead and waterproof wire ends for the flourecent tubes which I have not managed to find at any local lighting place. I went to spend R20 ended up spending R280 again.... (bout USD30)


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## Minders (Aug 1, 2003)

Yes, it is a shame. Luckily, we have forums like these to share useful information with each other... like where the best fish shops are!


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

I see you are in the UK, know of any place in the london eye, I think its called, where I can get some laterite and or plant ferts, my other half is going there next year for a week, so she can at least bring me something from over the water. None of the local LFS stock anything but regular gravel or sand. some have round pebbles... I now also want SUBSTARTE of SUBSTANCE.

Sos, I think its the drugs, its still wearing off, can't speak properly yet, but I can type normal speed, weird.


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## Minders (Aug 1, 2003)

The London Eye is a tourist attraction in London, near Westminster I think (??). I don't often go to London, so it's difficult to say where there'd be a good fish shop near there. I live about 150 miles away. However, it might be worth having a look in the phone book (Yellow Pages) under Aquarium supplies when she gets there and make a few enquiries. I'm sure most places are accessible by the underground train. I could possibly make a few enquiries by phone for you, if I knew when your cousin was coming. I could then tell her where to get some laterite. I shouldn't think it was that hard to get hold of.


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## lanstar (Nov 29, 2002)

Minders said:


> What was puzzling was, although my tank is, and has always been pH 7.8, when I measured the water from my tap, it was only 7.0. I did this test twice, once at night and once in the morning. My tank has no rocks in it, or anything that could cause this.


Two possibilities...

1) Draw a water sample from the tap and let it sit overnight. THEN test the pH of the tap water. There may be dissolved gases in the tap water that lower the pH. Sitting overnight should let any dissolved gas come out of the sample.

2) Your tank pH could be higher simply due to replacing evaporated water with tap water. When the tank water evaporates, it leaves all the minerals behind. When you replace evaporated water with tap water, you're adding even more minerals. This effect is moderated somewhat with partial water changes... but not completely.



Minders said:


> Anyway, the end result of all this is that I've decided to start getting RO water from my trusty aquarium shop. They mix all the minerals, etc, back into that it needs to make it stable and good for the fish/plants, so it's just good water. No nonsense. And it's only like £3 (about $5?) for 25 litres. Which should do for a couple small water changes. I'm going to save up for my own RO unit and continue that way eventually. I know it's a fuss, but considering all the hidden nasties in my water and the problems I am trying to address, it just seems the best solution overall. Any thoughts?


RO is very handy to have on hand. You might also ask the LFS for some pure (not reconstituted) RO water as well. You can use the pure RO to replace water that evaporates from the tank. I use pure RO to fill the tank to the "full" mark (replacing evaporated water) a half-hour or so before doing a partial water change. This will minimize effect #2 above.

You might also find that "cutting" your tap water with RO 50%/50% or 70%/30% or something might make acceptable water at a lower cost.

Good luck!

Tim


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## Minders (Aug 1, 2003)

Thanks again for a very informative and helpful response!  

Cutting the tap water with RO is a good idea, as far as pH, etc. But remember that part of the reason for going RO is the ridiculous levels of phosphate in my water supply. I don't even know how high it is, as the tests only go to 5. I could be way beyond that, but have no way of knowing. So, with this in mind, would it still be a good idea to continue to use tap water, in any concentration?

I measured my phosphates again last night (I put the Phos-zorb sachet in on Saturday afternoon) and it still hasn't made a dent in my phosphate levels. Who can say how high the levels are? :?


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## lanstar (Nov 29, 2002)

Minders said:


> Cutting the tap water with RO is a good idea, as far as pH, etc. But remember that part of the reason for going RO is the ridiculous levels of phosphate in my water supply. I don't even know how high it is, as the tests only go to 5. I could be way beyond that, but have no way of knowing. So, with this in mind, would it still be a good idea to continue to use tap water, in any concentration?


Well, once you get the phosphate under control, you're going to need some source of phosphate to replace what the plants use. If you have lots of fish, the fish waste may be a sufficient phosphate source. But if your tank is heavily planted and the plants are growing well, this may not be enough. If you find yourself low on phosphate later, adding a little tap water to your reconstituted RO water would certainly replenish it!  

To find out how much phosphate is in your tap water, you could mix up a solution of 9 parts pure RO and 1 part tap water. Then test this sample for phosphate. The tap water phosphate concentration will be exactly 10 times the concentration the test results show. If the concentration is too low to read - try 1 part pure RO to 1 part tap water. Then the concentration will be double what the test shows. You get the idea... You can dilute the tap water with RO and use your low range phosphate test kit and still compute the actual concentration of phosphate in your tap water.




Minders said:


> I measured my phosphates again last night (I put the Phos-zorb sachet in on Saturday afternoon) and it still hasn't made a dent in my phosphate levels. Who can say how high the levels are? :?


I suspect the Phos-zorb sachet is saturated. Is it in the filter where there's good water flow around it? You may need to remove that one and put in another one. I've found that Phos-Zorb usually either takes the phosphate to near zero or becomes totally saturated in about 24 hours - if it is inside the filter where the water flow around it is excellent.

Best of luck...

Tim


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## Ace (Dec 10, 2003)

Em just curious,what is RO water?I never heard it before.


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## Minders (Aug 1, 2003)

*R*everse *O*smosis water - it's water put through a specific type of filtration. Here's some more info...

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question29.htm

Basically, through this filtration process, you end up with absolutely pure water. Though in it's pure form, water is no good for your fish/plants as it has no minerals, etc, to lend it stability and nutrient, etc. This is why if you use it, you must add back in a certain amount of minerals in specific amounts. But the benefit here is you can make your water exactly as you need it, and not have to "deal with" a bunch of other stuff that appears in your tap water, like in my case, high phosphates.


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## Ace (Dec 10, 2003)

Don't you worry about the PO4,no one is perfect in aquatic plants+fishkeeping,just try the way the guys been writing and you might fix it...gotta go cya and good luck!


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## Minders (Aug 1, 2003)

> Well, once you get the phosphate under control, you're going to need some source of phosphate to replace what the plants use.


Good point. Guess I'll have to keep an eye on that. I have 44 fish, mostly small ones, like tetras, pencilfish, and marbelled hatchets plus a couple more chunky fish like Rams, a baby ancistrus (will be chunky one day!) and corys. I don't know how much waste (in terms of phosphate) they'll be able to maintain in the tank. I do have a lot of plants and presume they'll get much bigger and fuller than they already are once the lighting is finally sorted out.

Once I get hold of the RO water though, I will do that test like you said (diluting tap into RO water). Pretty smart!

About the Phos-zorb sachet. I am told that I can "recharge" it using aquarium salt. Do you know anything about this? How it's done? Why that recharges it? I don't actually know what's in the Phos-zorb. The packaging doesn't really give you many clues.


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## George Willms (Jul 25, 2003)

The phos-zorb is just an ion-exchange resin, binding one ion for another. I don't recall, but I think to recharge it you mixed two tablespoons of aquarium salt with 8 oz. of water and soaked the bag in it for 12-24 hours and then store he bag in a fresh batch of this solution.


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## Minders (Aug 1, 2003)

Cool. Thanks for that. 8)


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## lanstar (Nov 29, 2002)

Let us know what you find your tap water phosphate level to be... and if, after recharging the Phos-zorb, you've begun to see phosphate levels in the tank drop. 

I didn't know Phos-zorb was rechargable. I've only used Phos-guard from Seachem and it doesn't offer a recharge procedure. The comment I made about it taking 24 hours to work was based on my experience with Phos-guard. The other product may work just as quickly, or it might take longer. I thought I'd better confess, lest I mislead you.  

Take care...

Tim


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## Minders (Aug 1, 2003)

Oh don't worry. The Phos-zorb doesn't tell you how to recharge it either. They're quite happy to let you pay the dough for another one, whether you actually NEED to buy it or not! It's only "people in the know" that pass this information on. I had no idea until someone told me, and after making various enquiries at other places, I have had it confirmed that you can recharge it using just aquarium salt, which is really helpful!

My only question now is... what happens if I don't get all the salt off before putting it back in my tank? My corys, otos and apple snails probably won't be too impressed with salt trickling into the tank.


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## George Willms (Jul 25, 2003)

Actually, if you look in that little pamphlet that comes with the phos-zorb it tells you how to recharge it. The salt should not have an effect on your snails, I have used it previously without problems.


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## Minders (Aug 1, 2003)

I'll look again, but it just seems to be one of those all-purpose leaflets. They list every single product they sell and you just have to find the paragraph pertaining to the product you bought. I've not seen the recharging information, though I did look for it. I'll look again though. I might have missed it somehow...


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