# bane of my existence



## TheFishWhoKnocks (Apr 10, 2014)

In the past I've had a small bowfront tank with quite a few fish (was probably overstocked) with one HOB filter and just the standard light/bulb that came with the kit. My plants grew like gangbusters with no fertilizers, and I fed my fish every day.

My wife has proposed that maybe there aren't enough fish? And if what the resource guide says is true regarding BBA being caused by low CO2, could adding more fish (and reducing water changes) help provide that extra CO2? I just don't know where the line is between putting too much waste into the water and not having enough CO2 due to low bioload.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Were it me (and it ain't) I would run only the two T8 bulb's for no more than eight hour's a day for the next three or four week's.
Would increase dosage of flourish comprehensive to twice a week.While the comprehensive has a little of everything,it does not have much in the way of macro nutrient's so I might consider purchasing a macro-micro mix of dry fertilizer to also add once a week.(is no harder than feeding fish).
I used to use only flourish comprehensive at twice a week but plant's began to perform better with the addition of dry fertilzer's containing Nitrogen,phosphates,and potassium.
Green leaf aquarium .com,aquariumfertilizer.com can hook you up.
Light alone ,drives the demand for CO2 and nutrient's.Less hour's of light,less intensity,= less demand for CO2 and nutrient's.
Plant's can and do grow albeit slowly with little to no additional CO2 other than that produced naturally through bacterial processes and they can get by with little in the way of nutrient's for the reduced light is not driving their need for these.
Low tech to me is non CO2 but ask somebody what low light or high light is and you get responses all over the board.
Those who get control over the algae without resorting to chemical fixes,spot dosing,blackout's,etc first reduce the lighting, thus decreasing the demand from plant's = time to tinker .
Then they see that plant's have sufficient macro micro nutrient's for low tech/high tech application.
In low tech, the CO2 is what it is without supplement's. (produced naturallythrough biological processes ,by product of fish respiration,that available from atmosphere above the tank)
Fertilzer's are easily added for low tech or high tech.
This leaves only the light in low tech to adjust.
Plant's demand is in direct proportion to amount of light driving the demand.
Even those who run uber lighting in CO2 injected tank's see alage in it's various form's and reducing the light is seldom considered.
They believe because they inject CO2 that four or five bulb's for ten/twelve hour's mean's more/faster growth, but this only happen's when CO2 injection rate is keeping up with the demand.(hard to measure actual CO2 injected/available for many).They are often told they need more CO2 for this reason but if rate of injection causes fish death's then what?
Hard to dial in CO2 at first ,so reducing the lighting even in high tech ,high light, reduces the demand and gives one a little breathing room to combat the algae that is problematic.
It is the light that drives everything.IMHO


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## TheFishWhoKnocks (Apr 10, 2014)

So to clarify - if I cut out the LED for a month or so... would you still recommend dosing dry ferts? 

I also forgot to mention I have a glass top that gets dirty with the hard water.... so the light is further diluted by that.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

TheFishWhoKnocks said:


> So to clarify - if I cut out the LED for a month or so... would you still recommend dosing dry ferts?
> 
> I also forgot to mention I have a glass top that gets dirty with the hard water.... so the light is further diluted by that.


 At the very least, I would dose the flourish comprehensive twice a week.
Keep water level high enough that there is no water fall effect from the two emperor filter's which will drive off what available CO2 is there more quickly.
Would not be afraid to use macro-micro nutrient's which you could buy a year's supply of for around 20.00 dollar's.


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## TheFishWhoKnocks (Apr 10, 2014)

What are your thoughts on a few more fish? I was thinking either adding more neons, or adding a pair of pearl gouramis/dwarf gouramis, something like that (nicer/attractive fish that will hopefully leave my RCS alone). This would add a bit more 'fertilizer' right?


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

TheFishWhoKnocks said:


> What are your thoughts on a few more fish? I was thinking either adding more neons, or adding a pair of pearl gouramis/dwarf gouramis, something like that (nicer/attractive fish that will hopefully leave my RCS alone). This would add a bit more 'fertilizer' right?


 A pair (female/male) Pearl gourami and some more neon's would be my choice.They frequent the upper region's ,so shrimp should be fairly safe save for those that climb near the surface and attract attention.
Dwarf gourami are too susceptible to Iridovirus.
Would also consider more plant's.


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## chestertank (May 23, 2014)

I've suffered with a bad BBA outbreak, due to using DIY co2 and the resulting fluctuating co2 levels caused a major outbreak. After research on these forums i went for a pressurised system.
However to get rid of the BBA that was already there i did use Hydrogen Peroxide, i was hesitant using it aswell. However you don't need to really dose the whole tank, just put it inside a spray bottle so you can just target the specific areas. As soon as you spray it on the BBA, it will fizz like crazy, then turn red, then greyish/white and die. Just make sure none of the RCS or MTS are near when you spray and it will be fine. it soon separates into water and oxygen.
So i'd follow roadmasters advice regarding lighting etc to stop it returning long term, i'd also add in make sure you are getting enough flow over the plants, as that was another issue i had. BBA seems to love any dead spots. But to get rid of the BBA already there H2o2 is perfectly safe.


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## TheFishWhoKnocks (Apr 10, 2014)

I had only heard of syringe spot treatment... so a normal clear spray bottle works effectively underwater at hitting the BBA? Will have to try that... definitely cheaper than Excel! lol


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

I have no doubt that the Road knows his stuff.
However I would check your stocking with the Aqadvisor(put in search) because the Gourami get about 8-10"...the Clown Loach gets 10" and the Plecos provide twice the waste of other fish the same size as they are.


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## TheFishWhoKnocks (Apr 10, 2014)

The rubberlip is about 2 inches, the BN 3, and the clown is about 3 as well... he is only in there temporarily... figure I will trade him in when he gets 4ish. Also he will probably be munching no baby shrimp so that's not cool. The pearls I'm thinking of only get 4 or so long, but I'll double check aqadvisor.


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## chestertank (May 23, 2014)

Yea just a regular spray bottle, just make sure whatever was in there before is washed out thoroughly. Means you can target an area where need to get rid of BBA. As with all things you can overdose so be careful, there seem to be differing guidelines on how much exactly is safe. Personally i don't use more than 3ml per 10g, so target a couple areas per day.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Raymond S. said:


> I have no doubt that the Road knows his stuff.
> However I would check your stocking with the Aqadvisor(put in search) because the Gourami get about 8-10"...the Clown Loach gets 10" and the Plecos provide twice the waste of other fish the same size as they are.


 
Believe you may be thinking of kissing gourami
Pearl gourami get around five inches.
Rubberlip pleco around four inches.
Bristlenose to five inches from base of tail to nose.
Clown loaches grow fairly quickly to five inches and then growth slow's down a bit.
75 gal tank mentioned could house thse fish comfortably for some time (year's).
Clown loaches however can make it tough to keep stem plant's rooted as they like to sift through and nose around the substrate.


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## chestertank (May 23, 2014)

Here is what my tank looked like, as you can see over-run with BBA, mainly due to poor flow, fluctuating co2 leves due to using DIY co2 and several weeks or no maintenance due to an op.









Once used the H2o2 to get rid the BBA that was there and fixed the issues causing it, i managed it get it under control. 









Defiantly worst type of algae ever had though.


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## TheFishWhoKnocks (Apr 10, 2014)

So if I cut my LED off, what sort of symptoms would alert me if the light is not strong enough? I currently have anubias, java fern, bronze crypt wendi, bacopa, red ludwigia, val, java moss, scarlet temple, wisteria, hornwort, and some sort of stuff that looks like a beanstalk... not sure on that one =\ 

There are so many articles/threads on PAR values, color temps, etc, that I suffer from information overload and paralysis quite often in this hobby.


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

About adding more fish to provide CO2.. the logic is good but..

Cautious more fish = more waste = more ammonia produced. Filter/bacteria/plants must be able to deal with ammonia or there will be algae issues.

So be cautious and do not overpopulate or more problems will be created.

Michel.


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## TheFishWhoKnocks (Apr 10, 2014)

I'll stay within the means of whatever the Aqadvisor tells me, based on my filtration. I will most likely just stick with a few more neons and a pair of pearls... Will continue to feed every other day.

Based on Road's advice I'll also cut LED for a few weeks, and dose the Comprehensive twice a week. I'll check out the dry ferts as well.


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## TheFishWhoKnocks (Apr 10, 2014)

Regarding the spot treatment, do I want to leave the pumps running, or shut them off temporarily?

Thanks!


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## Kntry (Dec 26, 2013)

Chesterworks, what is your carpet? Don't mean to get off topic.


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## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

TheFishWhoKnocks said:


> I'll stay within the means of whatever the Aqadvisor tells me, based on my filtration. I will most likely just stick with a few more neons and a pair of pearls... Will continue to feed every other day.
> 
> Based on Road's advice I'll also cut LED for a few weeks, and dose the Comprehensive twice a week. I'll check out the dry ferts as well.


I really am not a big fan of the aqadvisor, it tends to play it safe when it comes to stocking, and cannot take into account the benefit plants have on filtering the water. The best bet it is to keep an eye on the current inhabitants, and watch your parameters. If they are acting normal, and your levels are staying under control you may be able to hold more. If anything changes back off. 

BBA is a pain in the rear, no matter your light level, it can survive. not knowing your par value its hard to say how much light you actually have. T8's are not a very strong light compared to some of the more modern LED's or T5-ho fixtures out there. If this were my tank, I would do a good comprehensive fertilizer regimen like EI (Estimative index) This takes the fertilizer potential problems out of the equation for good. Dry fertz are inexpensive and very easy to obtain. Start out with the recommended dosing in the sticky within the fertilizer sub forum, and work from there. 

Using Florish Comprehensive is a waste of money, since you are paying mostly for the water weight of the bottle, and it ONLY covers your micro fertilizers leaving your macros out. 

If you decide to remove the LED's, keep an eye on your current plants, they will start to show signs of a lack of light pretty quickly (at least your stem plants will) dropped lower leaves, very slow to no growth, just poor looking health in general.


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## chestertank (May 23, 2014)

TheFishWhoKnocks - I turned off filter for 5 minutes so it would settle on the affected area, you should see it start to fizz where you have just sprayed.

Kntry - The carpet is dwarf hairgrass, first attempt at a full carpet so though would go for something fairly easy, rather than cuba etc. Think might give that a try next though


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Noahma said:


> I really am not a big fan of the aqadvisor, it tends to play it safe when it comes to stocking, and cannot take into account the benefit plants have on filtering the water. The best bet it is to keep an eye on the current inhabitants, and watch your parameters. If they are acting normal, and your levels are staying under control you may be able to hold more. If anything changes back off.
> 
> BBA is a pain in the rear, no matter your light level, it can survive. not knowing your par value its hard to say how much light you actually have. T8's are not a very strong light compared to some of the more modern LED's or T5-ho fixtures out there. If this were my tank, I would do a good comprehensive fertilizer regimen like EI (Estimative index) This takes the fertilizer potential problems out of the equation for good. Dry fertz are inexpensive and very easy to obtain. Start out with the recommended dosing in the sticky within the fertilizer sub forum, and work from there.
> 
> ...


 Actually Flourish comprehensive does contain KNO3,KH2PO4,but at very small level's.
Just sayin.


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## TheFishWhoKnocks (Apr 10, 2014)

LED has been off for a few days now... all plants seem to look okay as of now. I spot treated with H202 twice... I hit some of my slow growing plants near the bottom. The BBA has turned pink and I notice the ottos and the RCS and pleco seem more interested in it. I noticed my bristlenose's mouth was full of the stuff when he was sucking on the glass (looked like he had just eaten some cotton candy!:biggrin I also sprayed the output edge of my Emperor 400s (coated with nasty stringy bba hybrid algae). That stuff is red but is still hanging on unfortunately... hoping to see it fall off within the next day or so, to be food for my RCS who can't get up there in the stronger current.

Looking into getting a true SAE for future control, as well as dry ferts. Trying to keep the budget under control, as it's so easy for me to spend $100s in this hobby in the blink of an eye. I'll order dry ferts later this month.

Thanks for the suggestions so far everyone.

Chris


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## cjstl (Mar 4, 2013)

SAE can be pretty aggressive. That's what has held me back from getting any. I have terrible BBA in my Edge. I've been shocking with Excel and it is slowly dying off, but the H2O2 method sounds less expensive.

I got a trio of pearl gouramis from TWP - a male and two females. Don't know if you saw them in my 29G when you were here, but I love them. Definitely my favorite of all my fish!


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## TheFishWhoKnocks (Apr 10, 2014)

cjstl said:


> SAE can be pretty aggressive. That's what has held me back from getting any. I have terrible BBA in my Edge. I've been shocking with Excel and it is slowly dying off, but the H2O2 method sounds less expensive.
> 
> I got a trio of pearl gouramis from TWP - a male and two females. Don't know if you saw them in my 29G when you were here, but I love them. Definitely my favorite of all my fish!


Yeah those are beautiful... but my 75g is turning into an RCS factory... nervous about the pearls turning into a pack of wolves lol. And no, I didn't get to see that tank... the plants are doing AMAZING btw...

Decisions decisions!


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## jlfkona (Jan 1, 2013)

I put 3 true SAEs in my 75. They are now our favorite fish. They haven't been aggressive at all but very fun to watch. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheFishWhoKnocks (Apr 10, 2014)

Do they munch on shrimp?


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## cjstl (Mar 4, 2013)

TheFishWhoKnocks said:


> Yeah those are beautiful... but my 75g is turning into an RCS factory... nervous about the pearls turning into a pack of wolves lol. And no, I didn't get to see that tank... the plants are doing AMAZING btw...
> 
> Decisions decisions!


I have one little RCS in my 29G that somehow managed to find his way in there and survive. The pearls don't seem to bother him, but he spends most of his time hidden in the moss. My 10G RCS tank has taken a turn for the worse. Most of them died and I can't see how many are left because of the algae bloom that is covering the front of the glass


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## TheFishWhoKnocks (Apr 10, 2014)

An update - I have had the LED off for 2 months now and running only my dual T8. I have noticed no real change in BBA... I have killed it with hydrogen peroxide occasionally but it ends up creeping back. I started dosing Metricide 14 at a rate of 4ml per day (realistically about 5 times per week). I have been dosing Flourish comp twice a week but no dry ferts yet. Have not added any fish.

The java fern took a bad turn when I took off the LED, surprisingly, and the lower leaves of my bacopas have started to melt away. The java fern have started to develop a skeleton look, the tips of leaves starting to dissolve/turn brown and black, living only the 'veins' of the leaf behind. They also stopped any sort of propagating with droplets... new leaves appear only off the main 'root'.
My anubias nana and another variety have continued to show new leaves but quickly grow very pale/light green. 

I'm hoping the metricide 14 will help stabilize my C02, and gradually help the plants outcompete the BBA. Still need those dry ferts, just haven't gotten around to it yet. 


So, follow-up questions:

1. Should I stick the LED back on? (54watt I believe, Beamswork)

2. What sort of water changes are needed with Excel/Metricide? Is the glut absorbed by the plants or can it build up to potentially toxic levels?

Is there a dry fert regimen out there that doesn't force constant water changes? I'd like to stick to 2 water changes per month if possible, due to 2 small children, working full-time, and taking online classes!


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## Kntry (Dec 26, 2013)

I'm far from an expert at this but if you're trying to get rid of the BBA, get some True Siamese Algae Eaters SAE. I had it covering my rocks, driftwood and starting on the plants. I bought 5 SAE and within 2 weeks it was totally gone.

I lucked out and found them at PetsMart. Take a pic with you to make sure you get SAE and not a look alike.

The plants are probably melting from all the chemicals.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Just want to point out that somebody earlier told you to keep the water levels high to minimize splash, in order to conserve CO2. This is incorrect if you have a low tech tank with no CO2 being added. Surface agitation is a good thing in low tech tanks, because it allows the tank to absorb more CO2 via gaseous exchange with the atmosphere. The more the better actually. Also, liquid carbon sources like Excel/glute dont off gas so they are not affected by surface agitation.



TheFishWhoKnocks said:


> An update - I have had the LED off for 2 months now and running only my dual T8. I have noticed no real change in BBA... I have killed it with hydrogen peroxide occasionally but it ends up creeping back. I started dosing Metricide 14 at a rate of 4ml per day (realistically about 5 times per week). I have been dosing Flourish comp twice a week but no dry ferts yet. Have not added any fish.
> 
> The java fern took a bad turn when I took off the LED, surprisingly, and the lower leaves of my bacopas have started to melt away. The java fern have started to develop a skeleton look, the tips of leaves starting to dissolve/turn brown and black, living only the 'veins' of the leaf behind. They also stopped any sort of propagating with droplets... new leaves appear only off the main 'root'.
> My anubias nana and another variety have continued to show new leaves but quickly grow very pale/light green.
> ...


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## TheFishWhoKnocks (Apr 10, 2014)

Thanks Burr! I will order some ferts soon and leave the LED off for now until I get the plants healthy again.


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## cjstl (Mar 4, 2013)

I haven't been able to find any SAE around here, and I've looked. I'll let you know if I decide to order some. Maybe we could split the shipping cost. I have pretty bad BBA in my 29G, and to a lesser extent in my Edge.


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## TheFishWhoKnocks (Apr 10, 2014)

cjstl, yes I'd definitely be down for that. Still need to get out to get those Endlers.. could make one trip =)


Regarding the Metricide being reactive to light: Since I ordered a massive jug of the stuff and have small kids, I put about a cup's worth in a small glass jar, and keep it in the top dresser drawer with the syringe, all labeled *poison* so the wife doesn't touch it, and the kids can't reach it. Is opening the drawer and unscrewing the jar to get my daily doses going to be enough light to ruin it? I don't even remove the jar from the drawer, I just unscrew it and draw off what I need with the syringe. How do other people house their Metricide?


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## cjstl (Mar 4, 2013)

I've never used metricide. I keep my Excel and Flourish in amber glass dropper bottles. Got 6 off of Amazon a while back and need to get some bigger ones. I had good luck in my other tank dosing Excel after lights out. It killed most of the BBA. Just haven't wanted to dump a bunch in my 29G in case it melts my moss.

The 3rd generation Endlers are coloring up nicely. I moved a batch out of my 2.5 today into a 10. Hoping my remaining BV's in that 2.5 will be happier without all that added waste.


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## Kntry (Dec 26, 2013)

Ask you LFS if they can order them. You can also get them on aquabid.com


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## Stone454 (Jun 1, 2013)

You can also try american flag fish, they eat all sorts of algae but they can be aggressive, but they are easier to get than true SAE's, lots of SAE inposters being sold


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## TheFishWhoKnocks (Apr 10, 2014)

Ordered the EI kit from greenleafaquariums, looking forward to starting a fert regimen.

Hoping my T8s + metricide + ferts will result in some healthier more robust plants, and less BBA!


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## cjstl (Mar 4, 2013)

I finally found SAE at Aqua World in Ellisville! The last time I was in there, they told me no. But they have them labeled as "Algae Eating Sharks". They have the black strip running from nose all the way into tail, and sure look like spitting images of the pictures of true SAE. They were $8 each after 20% discount, so I only bought two. I'll let you know how they do in my tank.


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## Stone454 (Jun 1, 2013)

the stripe that runs all the way down and 2 barbels is what true SAE's have, now and then I see them labeled at our LFS as flying fox or some sort of combonation of saimease flying fox something odd like that


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## TheFishWhoKnocks (Apr 10, 2014)

Good find cjstl, how big were the ones you bought? Like plecos, I hear they get lazy as they get bigger and opt to eat fish food instead of algae :confused1:

I'm on a road trip at the moment but I have been told by the house sitter that my EI packages arrived =D Will have to start up another thread in ferts section with soe questions on that.... The stickies are a thousand posts long, so I will probably throw down my tank details and see what people recommend.

Cjstl, what is your fertilizer/dosing regimen? I know you mentioned you were doing a bit of CO2 in some of your shrimp tanks, yes?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

TheFishWhoKnocks said:


> Ordered the EI kit from greenleafaquariums, looking forward to starting a fert regimen.
> 
> Hoping my T8s + metricide + ferts will result in some healthier more robust plants, and less BBA!


If you are consistent, this will result is a pretty good algae free, relatively.......set up, light, CO2/Carbon and ferts, they are all balanced holistically here, so you got good advice.

Water changes, do them till things look better, 1-2x a week.
40-60% etc. Later, maybe once every 2-4 weeks.

Dosing, basic EI, but cut the rates by 1/4 to 1/3rd, so if you add say 1 tsp, now it would be 1/4 tsp etc.

Same frequency, just less.

Excel mix: dose daily. Say the tank is a 20 Gallon, dose 10mls a day. If you miss a day or two here or there, no biggie. Just try and be consistent with the Excel dosing. Ferts, maybe 2x a week. 

Should do well if you do this and be able to grow a wide range of plants.


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## TheFishWhoKnocks (Apr 10, 2014)

plantbrain said:


> If you are consistent, this will result is a pretty good algae free, relatively.......set up, light, CO2/Carbon and ferts, they are all balanced holistically here, so you got good advice.
> 
> Water changes, do them till things look better, 1-2x a week.
> 40-60% etc. Later, maybe once every 2-4 weeks.
> ...



When you say do water changes until things look better, first, why? What is the goal of the water changes? I thought fluctuating CO2 levels were something I wanted to avoid? Second, what would be a foolproof visible sign that 'things are better' and plants are improving? The die-off of BBA? Lots of new growth? 

I received the EI package, still have my Flourish Comprehensive (maybe 1/4 bottle) so my current plan of action is:

1. Increase dose of metricide over time to roughly 10 ML/day.
2. Dose 1/3 of the level of EI recommended for a 60-80g tank, twice a week, so this works out to ~1/4 tsp KNO3, ~1/16 tsp KH2PO4, ~1/12(?) tsp K2SO4, 2 capfuls of Comprehensive and ~1/12 tsp Plantex when it runs out..... Would it be ok to just dose 1/4, 1/16, 1/16, 1/16 respectively for simplicity's sake?
3. Keep photoperiod/lights as they are.
4. Increase livestock (with 3-4 pearl gouramis sometime in the next few weeks/months)

Any thoughts/suggestions are welcome. Thank you to all who have chimed in thus far!:icon_cool


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

You are adding Excel, that's why.
CO2 flux does not matter much then.
Plants like water changes under those conditions.


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## TheFishWhoKnocks (Apr 10, 2014)

plantbrain said:


> You are adding Excel, that's why.
> CO2 flux does not matter much then.
> Plants like water changes under those conditions.


 Technically I am adding Metricide... so if you recommend 10 ml per 20 gallons for Excel, that would drop to what, 6 ml per 20 gallons for Metricide? For my 75g, that would be roughly 18-24 ML/day, seems like a TON.... will my shrimp tolerate that? They are just RCS.


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## Slippryrock (Mar 15, 2011)

for what it is worth, I asked myself " what would Amano do ?" then i remembered i had a few of his books and one i hadn't read cover to cover yet. Low and behold he gave me the answer. He claims that BBA is the result of acidic conditions. I have been battling this for over a year.
Raise ph to 7.4 or 7.6 (not sure which as book is not here with me) using potassium carbonate. not a realistic thing to find in small quantity for me.
Cease CO2 injection.
sure enough my ph was 6.2ish and my tds meter read 400ish
i did a 50% WC with city water (no RO) raised to 7.4 to 7.6 and shut off CO2.
added some seachem equilibrium to add another 100 to the tds measurement. Now around 600 with hard city municipal water.
within days i was able to see it recede.
i also checked phosphates - nothing measurable
switched to NLS then to Cobalt brand.

doing 10 to 20% every couple days and it is retreating.


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