# I need help



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

dogdoc said:


> phosphate was off the chart. At least 10 (it changed instantly and only reads to 10). The good news is at least I don't have any green spot .
> 
> I have now tried EI and think I've failed. Where do I go from here?????


Try to get your nutrient levels a bit balanced out... EI works under certain circumstances, but in your case it seems like plants can't/don't use the ferts you put into your tank, so you'll need to back off some.

Crypts and Swords are slow growing plants that don't need high fert levels in the water column. Maybe add some more Hygros, Riccia, other fast-growing nutrient sponges...


----------



## dogdoc (Feb 26, 2006)

I have a ton of green hygro in there, as well as green temple, anacharis (quite a bit). It is pretty heavily planted.

Here's a pic of what it looked like just before the major algae attack.
http://www.plantedtank.net/tankprofiles/91/


----------



## mecgeorgeneo (Aug 12, 2005)

ive been having the same problem with phosphates but no algae. i was dosing mostly every day (K2SO4, flourish) when i realized that phosphates were at 10 ppm, despite any daily water changes. if you figure out how to lower the phosphates let me know! i'm worried my tank will break out. i've added phos-guard and have left the tank alone for a weekish but still no results. the test kit results in a lighter blue from the day before but i still see blue instantly.


----------



## dschmeh (Feb 5, 2006)

i would cut back on the iron and stop dosing phosphate your tapwater should be enough for phospahate, nitrates seem a little high i run 10-20 you still need to test when you do ei until you know how much your tank needs once you know that you can back off on the testing. try that for a few weeks without changing anyting else and see if you see improvement. If you change to many things at once you have no idea what the solution or problem is.
Dave


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

It's possible that you are depending on an inaccurate test kit to tell you that you have too much phosphate, when you really don't. All you have to do to reduce it is change about 75% of the water. But, even if you don't, high phosphate isn't the cause of your algae. More likely is that you really don't have as much CO2 as you think you have. You could try increasing it a bit at a time, watching the fish each day to see if they are in any distress. Then when you do see that, back off on the CO2 a little until they seem normal again. That will be the maximum CO2 level you can tolerate in your tank. And, the actual CO2 level will then most likely be in the 30-40 ppm ballpark.


----------



## dogdoc (Feb 26, 2006)

Alright, here is what I have been relying on for CO2 measurement. First, I looked at the pH/KH charts. I keep my pH at about 6.2-6.3. My KH is around 4. According to the charts, that puts me between 50-75 ppm CO2.

I have also read that comparing a tank sample to an outgassed sample is a better way to guage CO2 levels. So I did that. pH in tank 6.2-6.3. Outgassed sample 7.9. If I understand correctly, a 1.0 pH change should indicate around 30 ppm. So again, I should have plenty.

Is it still possible that my CO2 is low? Honestly, I'm not trying to argue, I just want to understand.

If I kick up the CO2 (by lowering the pH on my controller), what should I look for? Gasping at the surface? Won't they mainly face the lack of O2 at night?


----------



## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Doc, lots of experienced folks (including some of TPT Mods ) have tried EI and went back to a more conservative dosing regimen. I would suggest considering cutting out nitrates and phosphates, let the fish food and poop take care of those two. Dose enough potassium (it never causes algae). Go easy on traces... way easy if necessary. Cut down iron to maybe 5 ml per week. Only run the Tek for 8.5 hours total with only 4 hours on four tubes and 4.5 on two tubes and maybe raise the light up too if you have too. Teks, as you know are way bright. Starve this algae till you approach a balance. Keep the CO2 up high over 30-40ppm. Dose the Mg and Cal if your water is way soft. I think this might do the trick. Good luck. bob 

Edit: One last thing. Don't worry about a 'scape. Just pack the tank full of really fast stuff like green or sunset hygro and elodea. Pack it to the brim. We are talking starving the algae with hungry plants. And for good measure, throw in about 40mls of Excel in there to jump start the plants once or twice a week.


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

There really isn't just one "right way" to grow aquatic plants. Several different ways will do it. Some of us use high light intensity, others use low. Some use an EI fertilizing method, others measure whats in the water and dose accordingly. Some fret about CO2, others don't. I think you just have to work out what works best for you.

Some things we all seem to agree on are that high light intensity means you just about have to use CO2, and your plants will grow so fast you will be doing a lot of pruning. Measuring how much CO2 is in your water can be easy if your water doesn't have much alkalinity from other than carbonates and if you don't have much of any tannins in the water, but otherwise it is very difficult. And, watching your plants, fish and algae helps more than any other thing in helping you to determine what you need to do.


----------



## dogdoc (Feb 26, 2006)

Alright, I'm cutting back on my dosing and light periods, and I'm gonna crank the CO2 until the fish start to squeal. We'll see how it goes. I'm not quite ready to pull everything out yet, but I may get there soon.

Thanks all.


----------



## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

If in doubt, post a picture here. Many of us are proficient at algae ID. As posted, full light for that long is a lot.

T5HO runs about 22% brighter than a NO T12 and on top of that you have a much better reflector.

You might try to read Scolley's monster thread where he battles algae:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/photo-album/19984-scolleys-75g-big-clear-kahuna-56k-74.html



dogdoc said:


> I even get differing opinions on what exactly it is. Some say BBA, some say staghorn, some say hair algae.
> 
> Tank is 75 gal.
> Lighting: 4x54 HO t-5 TEK with 2 bulbs running 10 hrs. All 4 bulbs running for 8 hrs.


----------



## dogdoc (Feb 26, 2006)

O.K, here's some pics of my nightmare


----------



## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Definately not BBA. Probably Hair algae, though I haven't much experience with it. 

Yeah, lowering the light and cutting the ferts should really help. If your rainbows are like mine, PIGS, your tank is probably getting plenty of PO4 and NO3 from the fish and food excess. I copied a quote from PJAN, who won best tank in the AGA large tank competition. He knows his stuff. I thought you might find this enlightening. He starts his tanks low light with plenty of CO2.

Also, just cut ALL the really badly infected leaves off, even if it basically scalps some of the swords etc. They have massive root systems and will grow back fine, probably. Then a water change and lower light and lower ferts. Most algae issues arise from either too much light or too much ferts or both together, though sometimes the opposite can happen too, but that ain't the case here. Good luck. I think you can turn around given enuf time and low light low ferts.



PJAN said:


> And what Medicineman suggests, is actually what I'm doing also.
> 6 weeks slow, just start things up with only a few fish and let things cycle under low light with enough CO2.
> 
> Gr. PJAN


----------



## Dave66 (Apr 30, 2006)

Phosphate at .5 is far and away more than enough to get algae going, especially as that natural levels are more on the order of .001-.002. Only one test kit I know of reads down to those levels, and is nearly impossible to find and quite expensive. In an occasion such as yours where phosphate is in such concentrations the method I've used is to stock one or more baskets in a canister filter with phosphate removal compounds and/or a cut-up poly filter. You remove the engine (excess phosphate) you remove the excess algae. Shouldn't take more than a couple weeks to see a measurable reduction of your algae problems.

Hair algae is simply green algae that is florishing. It usually is found in overflows or other areas where high currents occur, however, with your high phosphate, it can settle where it cares to.

Dave


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Dave66 said:


> Phosphate at .5 is far and away more than enough to get algae going, especially as that natural levels are more on the order of .001-.002. Only one test kit I know of reads down to those levels, and is nearly impossible to find and quite expensive. In an occasion such as yours where phosphate is in such concentrations the method I've used is to stock one or more baskets in a canister filter with phosphate removal compounds and/or a cut-up poly filter. You remove the engine (excess phosphate) you remove the excess algae. Shouldn't take more than a couple weeks to see a measurable reduction of your algae problems.
> 
> Hair algae is simply green algae that is florishing. It usually is found in overflows or other areas where high currents occur, however, with your high phosphate, it can settle where it cares to.
> 
> Dave


I don't think you are correct about phosphate. People have tried elevated levels of phosphate and have not had algae start up. Low phosphate limits the growth of plants - plants will grow according to the amount of the most limited nutrient or light. Low phosphate will also trigger green spot algae, not the worst of the bunch, but still irritating. And, if the plants are growing, a .5% PO4 level will very quickly be used down to near zero, stopping plant growth, which leaves the field open for algae to start up. This is what I have learned from reading these forums over the past year and more.


----------



## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

I don't know if I agree Hoppy. If I dose in some mls of phosphate stock in my tank, it can spur plant growth and algae growth. That has been my experience, even though Barr and others report it doesn't. But seeing the algae take off is believing for me. Everyone's tank bioload and water is different, yet I would love GSA over that hair algae growing on Dogdoc's swords. I think lowering the phosphates is number one goal in this instance.


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

When a tank is phosphate limited and you then add more phosphate, the plants should do a growth spurt, but that uses up the nitrates very rapidly, leaving a nitrate shortage. And, the nitrate shortage may be what spurs the algae growth. However, since I am still learning this semi-witchcraft science, I wouldn't bet much on being right!


----------



## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

I've dosed both at the same time with no NO3 shortage and seen an explosion of algae. Maybe something was limited, but not PO4 or NO3. And it wasn't over dosed, well under EI standards and on a water change too. You said it right, its a bit like alchemy some of the time. But over the last few years, I've had better luck underdosing than pushing the envelop. At least that's been my experience, but like everyone's tank, mine has its own characteristics, one being a fairly heavy fish load which eats pretty well. I sometimes think the estimated index works best for folks with a really light fish population. Just a theory of mine.


----------

