# New cherry shrimp dead, possibly molting issues



## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

I have a Fluval Spec V 5-gallon tank, currently with an isolated betta fish (going to be moved out of tank) and 3 (2 berried) red cherry shrimp. Yesterday I received my shipment of 5 more cherry shrimp (blue velvet, sapphire, orange rili, yellow diamond back, etc). I drip acclimated them, waited until the water was doubled, poured out half, and waited until the water was doubled again before I netted them and introduced them to the tank. They were in there all day, no problem. Everything seemed fine until today--fast forward 12 hours, I check up on them, and there's one dead on a leaf. The first thing that seems odd to me is that the head shell is red, the middle seems orange, and the very tip of their tail is blue. I net them out and take a better look at them. I can see the head shell clearly enough, so I think it molted the other half of its shell (which is why it's so pale in the middle, it looks pink out of water), but I guess it couldn't molt the head shell off? It doesn't even look like it had started molting at all, it just looks like he's missing the rest of his shell. I know trouble molting is a bad sign, usually an indicator of GH being too high or low; earlier this month I had too much calcium so I used water softener to bring the GH down. I've been doing a couple water changes prior to this incident and the day of, about 3 this week, to try and lessen my brown algae. I did a general test strip of my water, 

Water Parameters - 1/21/17
Nitrate: around 80 ppm
Nitrite: about .5 to 1 ppm
GH: 4.2
Chlorine: 0
KH: 4.48
PH: between 7.2 and 7.8
TDS: 335 ppm

Water Parameters - 1/25/17
Nitrate: about 60 ppm
Nitrite: .5
GH: 4.2
Chlorine: 0
KH: 4.48
pH: still between 7.2 and 7.8
Ammonia: 0
TDS: 306

Water Parameters - 1/28/17
Nitrate: 40 ppm
Nitrite: 1 ppm
GH: 4.2
Chlorine: 1.0
KH: 4.48
pH: still between 7.2 and 7.8
Ammonia: 0
TDS: 311


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## Yukiharu (May 3, 2014)

Water softener is dangerous to shrimp. I've killed about $300 worth with it.


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

It was I think about 3-4 weeks ago and it did bring my gh down, though I did have one death in that time. I'll have to be more careful next time and find an alternative.

For now I have to figure out how to get all the parameters back into alignment without adding one thing to treat a parameter that will spike another.

I forgot to add, every time I do a pwc, I add CO2 Booster, Stress Coat, Nite-Out II (Nitrifying Bacteria) and Fox Farm Grow Big Hydroponic Plant Food. It seems odd to me that nitrites and ammonia would still be a bit high with the Nite-Out II being added over several water changes this week.

The higher nitrates is odd because my tank is pretty well planted, though I've only been adding CO2 every water change, rather than every day. I tested my tap water for nitrates and it's really low, nearly 0.

For the low KH and GH, I could add calcium carbonate.

For the pH, I could buy pH Down. 

So my questions are, would this fix my parameters? pH Down, calcium carbonate, and continuing to do water changes a few times a week?


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

First off, leave the pH be. Cherries are adaptable and can live in high pH water no problems. They prefer higher pH as it is. (i.e. 7+)


Second, stop adding anything to water changes *EXCEPT* something like Prime or similar product.


Third, what are your tap water parameters? Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, GH, KH and TDS?


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

Zoidburg said:


> Second, stop adding anything to water changes *EXCEPT* something like Prime or similar product.


So just the Stress Coat for the tap water? What about for the plants, no more CO2 or plant food?



Zoidburg said:


> Third, what are your tap water parameters? Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, GH, KH and TDS?


Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
GH: 4.2 dGH
KH: 2.24 dKH
TDS: 66


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Yes, just Stress Coat.


You need to bump up your GH ideally around 6 (as mentioned in the other thread), and the TDS should be at least 130-300. (have heard of cherries being kept in water with 400+ TDS) Your best bet is to get a Bee/Crystal shrimp remineralizer. Seachem Equilibrium can also work in a pinch.


Get the remineralizer and mix with your tap water to raise the GH and TDS. Then start doing small, but frequent, water changes and drip acclimate the water back in. About 5-10% daily or every other day. This will help to raise the GH and TDS while lowering the nitrates and nitrites. As I mentioned, the KH is fine.




Once you fix those issues, then you may try going back to the CO2/plant food. Changing those parameters while also dosing the tank is more stress than the inhabitants need. Dosing can also raise the TDS.


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

Not sure if there's been a mixup; the stats I last listed were for the tap water parameters you asked for, and are not the parameters of my tank.

My tank parameters are:

PH: between 7.2 and 7.8
KH: 4.48
GH: 4.42
Nitrate: around 80 ppm
Nitrite: about .5 to 1 ppm
Ammonia: Unsure
Chlorine: 0
TDS: 335 ppm

I definitely don't want to raise my TDS more, I need to decrease it.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

No, no mix up. I did word it wrong, though! I meant, that adding a remineralizer to your water changes will help to increase your GH, but lower the tank's TDS.


Get a GH+ remineralizer, add it to your tap water until the TDS is about 130-150, then do frequent, but small water changes with that until your tank parameters are under control.


Once the parameters are under control, then you can try re-adding the CO2 and plant food... but keep in mind, these can raise the TDS.


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

Oh! Okay, that makes sense. So just keep with the Stress Coat and add GH+ remineralizer! I'll have to buy it elsewhere online since my lfs (Petco) doesn't seem to sell anything like that on their site.

Edit: Is there another name for remineralizer? It'd be faster if I can buy it at my lfs but I can't find anything like it on their site.

Also, how often should I be doing water changes until the parameters are corrected? Every other day?


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

My apologies for the mix-up! 


At minimum, you want *Seachem Equilibrium*.


Or, shrimp specific, there are several brands.... some are liquid based, others are powders

Salty Shrimp Bee Shrimp Mineral GH+
Tantora Shrimp Series Mineral Liquid GH+ 60ml
MK-BREED Blue Diamond
Shirakura Liquid Mineral Ca+
SL-Aqua Blue Wizard (there's also a Red Wizard version - not sure which is best in your situation)
Shrimp Nature GH+
ShrimperNet GH+ MINERAL
ShrimpLab Cardidina Minerals GH+



If Petco doesn't have it (no surprise there!), and you don't have any other fish stores near you, you probably will need to order it online.


I would recommend doing water changes every 3 days or more often. Small ones though, like 5-10%. Once the tank is stabilized with correct parameters, then you can cut back to doing water changes every 1-4 times a month.


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

Thank you! I ordered some GH+, should get here in a few days. Hopefully I don't see any more shrimp deaths in the meantime. I'll keep on with the water changes, with the Stress Coat and GH (when I get it).


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

*Stress Coat*
Removes chlorine and chloramines (ammonia)
Contains aloe vera (slime coat)
Neutralizes heavy metals

*AmQuel +*
Detoxifies ammonia
Detoxifies chlorine
Detoxifies nitrites/nitrates
Detoxifies toxic pheromones


Both fight against ammonia, so that alone, you don't need to get Amquel+, unless they fight them differently... and there can be different kinds of ammonia... for other factors though, it might be worth getting. It doesn't actually remove ammonia though, just makes it harmless to inhabitants. It's still in the water, and can still be used by the bacteria.


I have Seachem Prime and Fluval Aqua+. Not sure which is better out of the two, other than the fact that the Aqua+ doesn't smell rancid! (Prime smells horrible - which is normal for this product)



I see most people recommend Seachem Prime actually (it's concentrated! re: below), but the Amquel+ should be basically the same product? Except, I haven't seen anything about Prime removing pheromones!

*Prime* - 1ml treats 10 gallons
*Aqua+/Amquel+* - 5ml treats 10 gallons


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

Not sure if I need to make a new post for this, but in the established tank, I just moved my heater into the filter compartment. Today I just read that it's best to make holes in the air pump--is this widely recommended? I'm hesitant to put holes in something in case I mess up and need a replacement. Fluval Spec Flow Tube Modification


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

I haven't heard of putting holes into an air pump. It does make sense, but if you aren't willing to do that, then keep an eye on the tank parameters to see if you need to move the heater.


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

Zoidburg said:


> I haven't heard of putting holes into an air pump. It does make sense, but if you aren't willing to do that, then keep an eye on the tank parameters to see if you need to move the heater.


Guess I'll have to move the temperature gauge closer to that side of the tank then. It's on the far side right now. Are those stick-on ones okay? And think it's okay to put it on the black part of the Fluval rather than the glass?


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

I've heard the stick on ones are inaccurate since ambient room temp and sunlight may change the temperature reading. One tank here does have one though, and it's reading at 78°. A digital thermometer (actually designed for food, not aquariums) is reading at 75°. Two different style mercury(?) ones are reading at 72/73°. A third style of mercury type appears to be reading about 78°...


Think I might need some more thermometers... lol


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

My issue is plug space. I already have three plugs for the one aquarium, three plugs for the other, and my other electronics in the room. So I'm trying to be as plug-free as I can get. Are there thermometers that are accurate but cordless?


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

None of these have plugs, nor cords.


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

Zoidburg said:


> None of these have plugs, nor cords.


So I see! How about this one? https://www.amazon.com/Leegoal-Digi...gital+thermometer&refinements=p_72:2661618011


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Seems like it would work just as great as any that I have. It would give you a general idea of what the temp is, at least.


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

I ordered two, one for each tank.



Zoidburg said:


> For your Fluval, you might want to consider getting some extra foam to cover the holes or even stainless steel mesh. The adults might not go into the small openings, but babies probably would! (making foam better...)
> 
> If you went with stainless steel, you could look for something like this. I don't know if this is small enough that baby shrimp wouldn't go through, though...
> 
> Stainless Steel Mesh - Han Aquatics


You were right about the little shrimps getting into the filter, though I'm not sure how. I've kept the foam block raised enough to block off both entrances, but today when I was rinsing the foam into the cycling tank, a little dead diamond blue came off. Given that it's taken me a month to finally get these colored cherries in, and two have already died, this stinks. The only thing I can think of is that he went above the foam and the water got too low and he got trapped but I can't be certain, so I definitely need to get some 4 1/4" x 10 1/2" mesh.

How does this look? The mesh seems finer and I could cut it down to size. https://www.amazon.com/ASC-Stainles...5246877&sr=8-10&keywords=Stainless+Steel+Mesh


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

It looks good.


Sorry to hear about two of the shrimp. Some shrimp can, and will, crawl out of the water to get somewhere else. Hopefully, this was not the case.


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

Shrimp emergency! Found one of my big berried shrimp dead. Carefully extracted her eggs from her, though having some trouble getting off the tiniest bits of their mum off them. I put them in a container of water from the established tank. They're a week away from hatching. Not sure whether to go with the container/swishing method or put them in a mesh bag and stick them in the tank. I don't have any pest snails (not anymore, I think the betta ate them) and the betta is separated, so they wouldn't have any predators in a mesh bag (that held the biomax rings to the new tank, has not been exposed to established tank yet, nor the ammonia added to the new tank. Definitely need advice, I'm at a fork in the road! I'd rather use the mesh bag than the container for the extra circulation. 

After some research, it seems that to do it in-tank, I'd need an airstone, which I don't have. I'll try the instructions with using a container (http://www.planetinverts.com/Artifically Hatching Eggs.html)

I had an idea, though. As well as keeping them in a container (and doing water changes and spraying water on the eggs with a dropper, etc), what about keeping the container (it wouldn't fall over, it's wide but shallow) on top of the water in my established tank? It wouldn't provide circulation but it might keep the temperature up.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

As long as the eggs get enough circulation, with whatever setup you end up trying, they should still be able to hatch!


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## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

Personally, I'd go fine mesh bag with highly oxygenated flow like you get around a HOB. Increasing the temperature a little bit can also help accelerate the process. Just be sure to keep it at a safe temp.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

natemcnutty said:


> Personally, I'd go fine mesh bag with highly oxygenated flow like you get around a HOB. Increasing the temperature a little bit can also help accelerate the process. Just be sure to keep it at a safe temp.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


Currently my temperature is at 74. The only kind of mesh bag I have is this: http://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcostore/product/fluval-spec-biomax-filter-media

Can't a bag like this end up crushing them?

Also, today one of my painted red's has been zooming around the tank. I'd think nothing of it if they were male (and if a female had just molted) but this is a female shrimp. For hours she'd zip around, calm down for a while, and then do it again. Even climbing up the corners of the aquarium toward the surface before continuing to swim around.

My latest water parameters are posted in the original post (the 25th of Jan). I'm also battling diotoms in my tank, it tries to coat my plants and glass.


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## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

Not sure how fine that is. I was thinking something like the bags they use for purigen or something.

Another option that I found is this: http://www.planetinverts.com/Artifically Hatching Eggs.html

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

I just got the Bee Shrimp Mineral GH+ from Salty Shrimp; for doing a 5-10% water change on a 5 gallon tank, how much should I dose my tap water with? The instructions are not clear.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

3 grams to ~5 gallons should equal about 6 GH. With a tap water of 4, you would want to raise it by 2. This would be about 1 gram per 5 gallons.

Test after mixing to see if you get about 6 GH.


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

I tried to do the calculations on my own, and measured about 1/4 of the cup before mixing it in with my tap water and some stress coat before adding to the aquarium. I didn't do a GH test to it first but next time I will. Is there a way to more properly test for GH than test strips? My freshwater master test kit only tests pH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.

It's been less than 4 hours later; I tested the tank and the GH is still the same. These are my current parameters:

Water Parameters - 1/28/17
Nitrate: 40 ppm
Nitrite: 1 ppm
GH: 4.2
Chlorine: 1.0
KH: 4.48
pH: still between 7.2 and 7.8
Ammonia: 0
TDS: 311

I see some dead plant matter in my tank so I'm going to prune/pluck that.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Get the API GH & KH liquid test kit or the Sera basic test kit which includes GH and KH?


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

natemcnutty said:


> Not sure how fine that is. I was thinking something like the bags they use for purigen or something.
> 
> Another option that I found is this: Artificially Hatching Eggs .:. Information on artificially hatching Freshwater Aquarium Shrimp Eggs


So I've been trying to think of various ways to help these shrimp eggs in a more reliable way than keeping them in a container and spraying them now and then with water from the established tank. It just seems riskier because it means between then, they're sitting in stagnant water. I don't have any fine mesh bags, and not sure where I could get one locally. Currently I have the pre-filter sponge off my intake valve because the betta is isolated from it for now, and because I was hoping it would push around the container holding the shrimp eggs a bit. I've noticed some of my taller plants swaying a little with the current. I want to get some opinions on the idea of trying to stick these eggs to a leaf, although I'm not sure the mucous binding them is as strong as it was the day I found them.


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

Zoidburg said:


> 3 grams to ~5 gallons should equal about 6 GH. With a tap water of 4, you would want to raise it by 2. This would be about 1 gram per 5 gallons.
> 
> Test after mixing to see if you get about 6 GH.


Looks like it. That's good, right?


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

That's right!


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

I tested the water parameters today:

Nitrate: 40 ppm
Nitrite: .5 ppm
GH: 8.4
Chlorine: 0
KH: 4.48
pH: still between 7.2 and 7.8
Ammonia: 0
TDS: 329

Nitrates, nitrites, TDS, and now GH are too high. I'm guessing no more remineralizer and daily 10% water changes?


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

GH and TDS are fine, if you want to keep them their. Nitrates could indeed be lowered however.


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## sdwindansea (Oct 28, 2016)

Strange to see Nitrites at 0.5 ppm. That could be a problem from what I understand.


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

sdwindansea said:


> Strange to see Nitrites at 0.5 ppm. That could be a problem from what I understand.


So some information on my tank, because I keep testing and the nitrites keep staying at 0.5 ppm.

It's a 5-gal medium planted tank, stocked with 6 mature cherry shrimp and at least 6 shrimplets (the first batch from the dead berried female didn't make it but the other berried shrimp had theirs), and 2 otos.

I know the otos shouldn't be in a 5 gal but I was having a lot of issues with brown algae (My tank has been cycled for months, but then I had a recent outbreak that the shrimp wouldn't eat), though the otos have eaten all of it now. I'm trying to turn them onto peas but not sure I'm having any luck.

For cleaning, I have been avoiding gravel vacuuming, I'm afraid I'll suck up a shrimplet, so I've been using a turkey baster to clean gravel and pick up waste and uneaten food.

About every 3 days I do a water change, with Stress Coat, and sometimes with the Shrimp Remineralizer GH+ if my GH seems too low.

These are my water parameters taken two days ago:

Water Parameters - 2/12/17
Nitrate: 30 ppm
Nitrite: .5 ppm
GH: 4.2
Chlorine: 0
KH: 2.24
pH: 8.4
Ammonia: 0
TDS: 245
Temperature: 74

KH went down but I hear that's fine for fish. pH was high so I've added in an indian almond leaf to see if that will help at all.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Nitrates are a little high, GH a little low. Ideally, you want stability.


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## BROMLaar (Sep 11, 2016)

You want zero nitrite and ammonia because both are toxic. Also I was having problems with shrimp molting until I switched to bee shrimp gh plus and haven't had a single one die in 2 months now![emoji4]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

BROMLaar said:


> You want zero nitrite and ammonia because both are toxic. Also I was having problems with shrimp molting until I switched to bee shrimp gh plus and haven't had a single one die in 2 months now!


Yeah, Zoidburg advised I get a remineralizer and so far so good, no deaths. Still not sure how to get the Nitrites down.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

You may want to consider moving the otos to another tank and make sure there are at least a total of 6 of them.


Are we testing before or after a water change?


You might need to get something like Tetra's SafeStart to get the nitrites to 0 and water changes to get Nitrates down a little further.


Try to keep the GH stable around 6-8.


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

Zoidburg said:


> You may want to consider moving the otos to another tank and make sure there are at least a total of 6 of them.
> 
> 
> Are we testing before or after a water change?
> ...


This is going to sound bad, but I don't have any bigger tanks than my 5 gallon. I just got the two little otos to get rid of the brown algae that had completely taken over. I know the tank isn't big enough for them to grow up in, and that 2 doesn't make for a very good school. Now that the brown algae is gone, and I've seen them eating sometimes on the cucumber/zucchini combo I've been putting in every day, I think I'll ask my local fish store if they'd like to take them off my hands for me (or try craigslist).

Sometimes I test before a water change, sometimes some time after; which method is better?

Can I start using my Nite-Out II again to bring the nitrates down? It seems the nitrates just spiked very recently.

Before today's water change, I found:

Water Parameters - 2/19/17
Nitrate: 30 ppm
Nitrite: 2 ppm
GH: 8.4
Chlorine: 0
KH: 5.6
pH: between 7.8-8.4
Ammonia: 0
TDS: 237
Temperature: 74

GH, KH, and nitrites are all over the place.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Plants and water changes should be used to bring down nitrates. Might try Purigen, too?


If you test after a water change, it would probably be best to wait an hour or longer to make sure things settle.


You want stable tank parameters. Your parameters are not very stable and you need to figure out how to fix that...


Your best bet is to go to a 10 gallon tank.... these are more stable than smaller tanks and easier to maintain.


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

Zoidburg said:


> Plants and water changes should be used to bring down nitrates. Might try Purigen, too?


I am glad to say the nitrates have been going down; they're still high, but at least the water changes have been helping.



Zoidburg said:


> You want stable tank parameters. Your parameters are not very stable and you need to figure out how to fix that...


I know, I'm freaking out. Here's the last parameter check versus the one I took today: 

Water Parameters - 2/19/17
Nitrate: 30 ppm
Nitrite: 2 ppm
GH: 8.4
Chlorine: 0
KH: 5.6
pH: between 7.8-8.4
Ammonia: 0
TDS: 237
Temperature: 74

Water Parameters - 2/22/17 (before water change)
Nitrate: 10 ppm
Nitrite: 5 ppm
GH: 4.2
Chlorine: 0.5
KH: 4.48
pH: between 7.8-8.4
Ammonia: 0.5
TDS: 233
Temperature: 74

*Spikes:*

I've never had the ammonia up before, and the nitrite spiked. The GH is going nuts, I'll have to add GH+ to today's water change. I haven't been vacuuming my gravel with the siphon vacuum because of the little shrimplets, but I've been using a big turkey baster to clean up gravel and poop, which takes out enough water for a water change, and then I add GH+ and Stress Coat. I have some Nite-Out II for decreasing ammonia and nitrites, I'm going to add that too.

*Deaths*

Yesterday I had a death of my second oldest fire red, today the oldest fire red died. The latter was only one inch big so I don't think it was just the end of her lifespan.

*Suspicious Things*

The other cherry shrimp seem to just want out of the tank, every single one of them is up near the surface by the frogbit, either on it (and nearly out of the water) or under it. It's freaking me out.

I don't think it's a CO2 problem, I haven't been dosing the tank with it. The closest I've done for the plants (aside from trimming away dead matter, though I haven't had to much, the plants have been doing well) is the occasional root tab.

My tank has also been cloudy ever since I accidentally broke the last root tab in trying to put it under a substrate. I had read this cloudiness would go away after a day but it's been a few days now...

My population of micro-organisms (copepods, nematodes, and seed shrimp) have moved from the substrate and are all on the glass.

I also recently found what might be white algae (kind of cobwebby) on a few of my HC and on the glass so yesterday I wiped them off and pulled the afflicted plants.

Over the last week, I've also noticed more bubbles, rising, and sticking around on the surface (isn't my betta, he's in another tank).

Shouldn't be any oxygen problems, it's a moderately planted tank.




Zoidburg said:


> Your best bet is to go to a 10 gallon tank.... these are more stable than smaller tanks and easier to maintain.


Sounds great but I literally don't have the room. With the surfaces I have available, I could only find room for the 5 gal and the 2.6 gal.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Are you remineralizing the water prior to doing water changes??? Or after???

You can top up the tank with RO/DI water, but *always* remineralize new water coming in prior to adding it to the tank.


If you do vacuum the gravel, then vacuum into a bucket, and once done cleaning the top layer, check the bucket for baby shrimp. Fish them out and dump them back into the tank.



Sorry you lost a couple of good shrimp. Hate it when that happens.


Hanging up at the top of the water line could be CO2, fertilizer, temperature of the water too warm, or even too much water conditioner.


It can take a few days at least for the water to become clear again. It depends on if it's bacteria, algae or something else causing the cloudiness.



I've noticed that "white cobwebs" typically appear at night and disappear once the tank light is on for a while.


Even with plants, it doesn't hurt to occasionally have a second source for oxygen, such as a sponge filter or air stone.



If you ever find room for a 10 gallon, I would highly recommend upgrading!!!


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

Zoidburg said:


> Are you remineralizing the water prior to doing water changes??? Or after???


Before the water change; I put in the Stress Coat and the GH+ to the bottom of my pitcher, then fill it up with tap water, and try to shake it up as I go. Then I pour the water into the tank. Usually over the cartridge because otherwise it uproots my HC and other plants. Is this overall process okay?



Zoidburg said:


> If you do vacuum the gravel, then vacuum into a bucket, and once done cleaning the top layer, check the bucket for baby shrimp. Fish them out and dump them back into the tank.


Sounds like a plan! 5-10% water change still, right?



Zoidburg said:


> Hanging up at the top of the water line could be CO2, fertilizer, temperature of the water too warm, or even too much water conditioner.


The temperature's been stable at 74. I only apply a very small dose of Stress Coat during each water change, every 3 days or so. Not sure about the CO2; I haven't been dosing the tank with it every since the beginning of the thread. What kind of fertilizer, though? Because I did put a root tab under the substrate several days ago but it broke a few times in the process, releasing some cloudy stuff.

I also have a single catappa leaf in there, but I added that in maybe a week earlier, and it hasn't made the water cloudy. Though I was hoping it would release more tannin coloring than it has.

Some good news, the shrimp have been traveling downward in the tank again. It was just so startling to see nearly all of them on a few pieces of frogbit near the drain slits (I have mesh behind it), practically climbing each other.

And more good news, the LFS said they would adopt my otos, so I'll be glad if they can get a better home. I had always planned to rehome them because I knew they'd grow bigger, though I do feel bad for using them (for the brown algae), and that they were likely wild caught. :/ So hopefully they get a good home and in a larger school and tank. The whole avoiding the bacteria in their stomachs from dying out and getting them to eat vegetables has just been stressful.



Zoidburg said:


> Even with plants, it doesn't hurt to occasionally have a second source for oxygen, such as a sponge filter or air stone.


Could having a pre-filter sponge over the intake be limiting their oxygen?

ALGAE. I was scanning the tank and realized there's that thin webby stuff hovering nearly half an inch over the substrate. At first I thought it was wisps of cloudiness, but it's lke some very very fin webbing that almost looks like mist. I'm going to try and vacuum it out, but what is this stuff and how do I keep it from getting out of hand? I'm going to try and cut down on the hours that the lights in the tank are on, I leave them on too long.

Edit/Add: Though this stuff looks different than the webby stuff I saw on the glass. I'm actually wondering now if this is algae or zucchini/cucumber guts. Real pain to take out of the water.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

*Before the water change; I put in the Stress Coat and the GH+ to the bottom of my pitcher, then fill it up with tap water, and try to shake it up as I go. Then I pour the water into the tank. Usually over the cartridge because otherwise it uproots my HC and other plants. Is this overall process okay?*

Really trying to figure this out... lol

Do you measure the GH each time? Do you measure TDS prior to adding it into the tank?


*Sounds like a plan! 5-10% water change still, right?*

Wouldn't hurt!


*The temperature's been stable at 74. I only apply a very small dose of Stress Coat during each water change, every 3 days or so. Not sure about the CO2; I haven't been dosing the tank with it every since the beginning of the thread. What kind of fertilizer, though? Because I did put a root tab under the substrate several days ago but it broke a few times in the process, releasing some cloudy stuff.*

Any shrimp safe fertilizers. I see many people use shrimp tank specific fertilizers, some use Thrive+ or ThriveS. I was just listing off possible reasons. Maybe one of those could be an "ahah!" moment?

I mean, I once had shrimp at the top of the aquarium. Figuerd out, I accidentally used too much Prime in the new water. Probably best to hold off on fertilizers for now, beyond that root tab....

*I also have a single catappa leaf in there, but I added that in maybe a week earlier, and it hasn't made the water cloudy. Though I was hoping it would release more tannin coloring than it has.*

Try alder cones, too!

*Some good news, the shrimp have been traveling downward in the tank again. It was just so startling to see nearly all of them on a few pieces of frogbit near the drain slits (I have mesh behind it), practically climbing each other.*

That's great! 

*And more good news, the LFS said they would adopt my otos, so I'll be glad if they can get a better home. I had always planned to rehome them because I knew they'd grow bigger, though I do feel bad for using them (for the brown algae), and that they were likely wild caught. :/ So hopefully they get a good home and in a larger school and tank. The whole avoiding the bacteria in their stomachs from dying out and getting them to eat vegetables has just been stressful.*

I haven't tried with otos, but I hear they are difficult to keep! They often die if not in a school and even if they are in a school, you could still have a large die off... :frown2:

*Could having a pre-filter sponge over the intake be limiting their oxygen?*

Not at all! I use the sponge pre-filters! I've also put in sponge filters (not currently in use... need to get some more sponges!) as well as air stones for additional oxygen in a tank.


*ALGAE. I was scanning the tank and realized there's that thin webby stuff hovering nearly half an inch over the substrate. At first I thought it was wisps of cloudiness, but it's lke some very very fin webbing that almost looks like mist. I'm going to try and vacuum it out, but what is this stuff and how do I keep it from getting out of hand? I'm going to try and cut down on the hours that the lights in the tank are on, I leave them on too long.*

I'm not entirely sure myself, but too much nutrients (maybe that root tab?) could cause it.... or too long of lights. It helps to split the amount of hours of light.... i.e. 4 hours on, 2-3 hours off, 4 hours back on. You could even cut it down to 6 hours, split, until the tank is stabilized, then slowly increase.


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

Zoidburg said:


> Do you measure the GH each time? Do you measure TDS prior to adding it into the tank?


I measure the parameters (GH, TDS, the rest) before the water change, so I can tell if I need to add extra things like GH+ and Nite-Out II. I use very little of the remineralizer and other additions because my tank is small, by halving what they recommend for a 10 gallon tank.



Zoidburg said:


> Try alder cones, too!


Thank you! Ordering them now.



Zoidburg said:


> I use the sponge pre-filters! I've also put in sponge filters (not currently in use... need to get some more sponges!) as well as air stones for additional oxygen in a tank.


Alright, I'll get an air stone for the shrimp tank then.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Okay, so do you use GH+ with every water change?


Trying to figure out why your parameters really are all over the board.


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

Zoidburg said:


> Okay, so do you use GH+ with every water change?
> 
> 
> Trying to figure out why your parameters really are all over the board.


Yes, I use GH+ for every water change except the few times the GH was already high (around 8.4). Here's the log I've been keeping:

Water Parameters - 1/21/17
Nitrate: around 80 ppm
Nitrite: about .5 to 1 ppm
GH: 4.2
Chlorine: 0
KH: 4.48
PH: between 7.2 and 7.8
TDS: 335 ppm

Water Parameters - 1/25/17
Nitrate: about 60 ppm
Nitrite: .5
GH: 4.2
Chlorine: 0
KH: 4.48
pH: still between 7.2 and 7.8
Ammonia: 0
TDS: 306

**This is when I started using the GH+**

Water Parameters - 1/28/17
Nitrate: 40 ppm
Nitrite: 1 ppm
GH: 4.2
Chlorine: 1.0
KH: 4.48
pH: still between 7.2 and 7.8
Ammonia: 0
TDS: 311

Water Parameters - 2/02/17
Nitrate: 40 ppm
Nitrite: .5 ppm
GH: 8.4
Chlorine: 0
KH: 4.48
pH: still between 7.2 and 7.8
Ammonia: 0
TDS: 329

Water Parameters - 2/12/17
Nitrate: 30 ppm
Nitrite: .5 ppm
GH: 4.2
Chlorine: 0
KH: 2.24
pH: 8.4
Ammonia: 0
TDS: 245
Temperature: 74

Water Parameters - 2/19/17
Nitrate: 30 ppm
Nitrite: 2 ppm
GH: 8.4
Chlorine: 0
KH: 5.6
pH: between 7.8-8.4
Ammonia: 0
TDS: 237
Temperature: 74

Water Parameters - 2/22/17 (before water change)
Nitrate: 10 ppm
Nitrite: 5 ppm
GH: 4.2
Chlorine: 0.5
KH: 4.48
pH: between 7.8-8.4
Ammonia: 0.5
TDS: 233
Temperature: 74


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

A GH of 8 isn't really high for cherry shrimp. In fact, it's recommended to keep them at around 6-8 GH, but they can handle 12 GH or more. (depending on how well they've adapted) Most Neos don't do well with a GH of under 6, although it is possible.


GH 6-8 https://www.discobee.com/blogs/news/17030569-dwarf-shrimp-water-parameters
GH 6-8 https://www.shrimpcorner.co.uk/blog/post/11-freshwater-shrimp-water-parameters
GH 4-14 http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq156/hollyboy_81/497_parameter_air_udangedit.jpg


Your tank isn't stable and you need to figure out how to make it stable. Figure out a target GH and try to keep it at that, even with water changes. If you didn't have any ammonia or nitrites and low nitrates, you could even go as far as just topping up the tank and doing water changes maybe once a month? Although you would probably need to introduce more plants for this to be effective... fast growing plants like hornwort or frogbit, although either could easily over-take the tank since it's so small.


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

Zoidburg said:


> Your tank isn't stable and you need to figure out how to make it stable. Figure out a target GH and try to keep it at that, even with water changes. If you didn't have any ammonia or nitrites and low nitrates, you could even go as far as just topping up the tank and doing water changes maybe once a month? Although you would probably need to introduce more plants for this to be effective... fast growing plants like hornwort or frogbit, although either could easily over-take the tank since it's so small.


Ah, I was aiming for another set of water parameters I'd read for cherry shrimp. I see now.

I found another dead cherry, under a piece of driftwood. Maybe it's the low GH, giving them issues when they molt. Though the higher nitrates and nitrites can't be helping. The shrimplets have done all right so far, though I found a dead one a few days ago.

My tank is still cloudy!

I bought an air stone, pump, and cord today, but I still need to buy a check valve before I set it up.

Before the water change today, parameters were reading:

Water Parameters - 2/25/17 (before water change)
Nitrate: 10 ppm
Nitrite: 0.5 ppm
GH: 4.2-8.4
Chlorine: 0.5
KH: 4.48
pH: between 7.8-8.4
Ammonia: 0.5
TDS: 208
Temperature: 74

I'll keep adding the GH+ and aim to keep it around 7, and hope the water changes lower the nitrates and nitrites.

Not sure why chlorine has picked up. Only difference is I've been treating the water outside the tank before I put it in, rather than dosing the tank directly with Stress Coat and then the tap water.

My KH and TDS look fine then, though my pH is still high. I have some pH Down, does this stuff work/help?

I have frogbit, and when I had my tank on one side of the room, it was nuts. I was basically giving the stuff away. I don't believe the sun could reach it from where I had it. But then I moved my tank to the other side of the room and put the pre-filter sponge on, and then the frogbit began yellowing. Once where I had it covering the entire surface, overlapping each other, now I have about 5 pieces of frogbit left per tank. Maybe it's just run its course and I should go get more 'new blood.'


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

No pH Down. Please avoid OTC products like ph Down, pH Up and Neutral pH. These are likely to cause more harm than good and cause your TDS to go all over the board.


Cherry shrimp are fine in higher pH.



The amount of water changes could also be stressing the shrimp out, since you still don't know where the ammonia or nitrites are coming from. 



Kind of feel it might be worth it to overload the tank with some fast growing plants and don't do any water changes, but keep an eye on the water parameters.


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

I think the cloudiness might be from the catappa leaf. I just have one in. I thought it'd make the water more yellow but it hasn't. I read it can still make the water cloudy, though.

What kind of fast-growing plants do you recommend? I can't pick up any frogbit yet, they don't have any out yet at my local hardware store. I have a few anubias, wisterias, reineckii mini, dwarf hairgrass, HC, and java ferns. The frogbit I have is being slow.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

I've only seen Indian Almond Leaves (aka Catappa) change the color of the water to a slight tea-ish color.... usually with the help of alder cones. Never seen cloudiness, even when I added more than one leaf to the tank.


There's hornwort, duckweed (smaller, potentially more annoying form of frogbit), anachris, pennywort... any kind of floating plants are usually a great choice.


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

Zoidburg said:


> I've only seen Indian Almond Leaves (aka Catappa) change the color of the water to a slight tea-ish color.... usually with the help of alder cones. Never seen cloudiness, even when I added more than one leaf to the tank.
> 
> 
> There's hornwort, duckweed (smaller, potentially more annoying form of frogbit), anachris, pennywort... any kind of floating plants are usually a great choice.


About to do another water change today, though the tank is still cloudy. I can barely see the back of it. Also, my seed shrimp are out of control. They're completely covering my frogbit and its roots, they're all over the glass, they're hovering over the substrate. But I can't introduce any fish that are small enough in this 5 gallon that won't also harm my shrimp. I'm really hesitant on the 'take it down, transfer shrimp, build it up again' because I don't have a spare tank aside from the betta's 2.6, and that, with the little shrimplets and all, would be a death sentence. I haven't bought any other fast-growing plants yet, but when I do, will that help with the seed shrimp? Or should I be looking into bladderwort?


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Unfortunately, the best way to get rid of seed shrimp is to either introduce fish or restart the tank. Heck, if you could house the shrimp in a bucket with a small filter while you restart the tank, that would work just fine!


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

Zoidburg said:


> Unfortunately, the best way to get rid of seed shrimp is to either introduce fish or restart the tank. Heck, if you could house the shrimp in a bucket with a small filter while you restart the tank, that would work just fine!


I haven't even been adding any food to this tank and there's so many. Will they just die down after a while? Or are they multiplying off dead plant matter? And would bladderwort really be that bad? My shrimplets are bigger than their traps.

Edit: And yet another shrimp death, this time one of my orange rilis...

Edit 2: Also, if this much seed shrimp isn't harmful, I can just ignore them. I just saw them swarming my frogbit roots, and they were all over the glass, that it alarmed me. Are they okay in these numbers? My shrimp aren't competing for algae and biofilm with them, right? I don't add anything to my tank for the shrimp. I did have some veggies when I had the otos and I think that made the microorganism population explode but it's been a few weeks since I had added food.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

They'd be eating the same foods as your regular shrimp are.

I'm not familiar with bladderwort, but I'd say it might be a good idea to not go that route...


I've only ever found one in one of my tanks, so never had an issue. Don't even know where it came from since nothing had been added in several months. It's from my understanding that in small numbers, they are harmless, but in larger numbers that could change?

Might try adding baby fish into the tank that would eat the seed shrimp but not the adult shrimp.



Have you noticed any reason why the orange rili might have died?


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

Zoidburg said:


> They'd be eating the same foods as your regular shrimp are.


I worry that they're competing and that the seed shrimp are either winning, or branching out in desperation.




Zoidburg said:


> I'm not familiar with bladderwort, but I'd say it might be a good idea to not go that route...


Any reason against?




Zoidburg said:


> Might try adding baby fish into the tank that would eat the seed shrimp but not the adult shrimp.


Any suggestions for a 5 gal?





Zoidburg said:


> Have you noticed any reason why the orange rili might have died?


I usually suspect molting problems but it didn't look like it was trying to molt. Its eyes were visibly black, though its clear midsection looked white. Other than the white part, it looked so normal that I thought it was alive, until I realized that it wasn't moving and that the other orange rili was eating it.

Here are today's parameters, before a water change:

Water Parameters - 3/02/17 (before water change)
Nitrate: 10 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
GH: 4.2 (will add GH+ to next water change)
Chlorine: 0
KH: 0 <- WHAT!?
pH: between 7.8-8.4
Ammonia: 0
TDS: 172
Temperature: 74

MY KH! It's just gone! I imagine that would make problems from the shrimp. I know how to soften KH but I'm not exactly sure how to increase it.

I also added three tiny alder cones to the tank today (and one to my 2.6 betta tank).


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

your tank isn't cycled


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

klibs said:


> your tank isn't cycled


My tank has been cycled for months. 

Edit: I waited 3 months for the tank to first cycle, and then months later may have set off a mini-cycle. If it's uncycled, what do I do?

The insta-cycle just happened with my second tank, using media from this one.

Edit 2: I wonder if the cloudy water had anything to do with the veggies I tried to scoop out when I had the otos. The zucchini and cucumber slices fell apart so easily.


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## ambe (Feb 16, 2017)

Something you added has put too many nutrients into the water by the sounds of things. Now the otos have gone, there will be less food/waste rotting in the tank. I would hold off feeding for some time and try and bring nutrients down. The shrimp will do ok on biofilm for a few days. This, together with small water changes should help the water clear and get your ammonia and nitrites settled. Try and vac the substrate to get dead and rotting matter from it also.

Stop adding stuff apart from a dechlorinator for your water and your GH+. If your tank stands at for eg 5GH, make sure that your new water reads 5GH also. Test it before you add it to the tank. As far as I know, there's no way that the tank GH will rise and fall if the water you add has the same GH. Measure your dechlorinator exactly also. The KH can change a little but nothing to worry about. The main thing as others have said, is to reach stability so just stick to adding those two essentials.


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## NickAu (Feb 24, 2017)

Nitrates should be less than 20ppm. Above 20ppm RCS are susceptible to disease and infertility.


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

ambe said:


> Something you added has put too many nutrients into the water by the sounds of things. Now the otos have gone, there will be less food/waste rotting in the tank. I would hold off feeding for some time and try and bring nutrients down. The shrimp will do ok on biofilm for a few days. This, together with small water changes should help the water clear and get your ammonia and nitrites settled. Try and vac the substrate to get dead and rotting matter from it also.


I haven't been feeding (adding anything) for the shrimp since the otos, except for a catappa leaf and today three little alder cones (should I take all these out for a while?)



ambe said:


> Stop adding stuff apart from a dechlorinator for your water and your GH+.


Alright, I'll hold off on the Nite-Out II again and just keep to the Stress Coat and GH+ remineralizer.



ambe said:


> If your tank stands at for eg 5GH, make sure that your new water reads 5GH also. Test it before you add it to the tank. As far as I know, there's no way that the tank GH will rise and fall if the water you add has the same GH. Measure your dechlorinator exactly also. The KH can change a little but nothing to worry about. The main thing as others have said, is to reach stability so just stick to adding those two essentials.


Thank you!


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## ambe (Feb 16, 2017)

Sorry, keep on with the Nite-Out II ! This is getting rid of the bad stuff. The leaf and the cones are fine :smile2:


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## Toney (Oct 29, 2016)

I put some guppie fry in my rcs tank, all the little bugs were gone in hours.


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

I couldn't get a hold of any guppie fry, and I'm hesitant to put any fish in my shrimp tank.

Initially I thought the water was more yellow, but looking at it now, it seems more green. Algae bloom? I'll start by keeping the light on less.

Would I need to get a UV water sterilizer?

I've also heard someone have success with Diatomaceous Earth


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