# Getting rid of brown algae - more light or less light?



## Regenesis

Is this tank newly set-up? Brown algae -- Diatoms -- usually grow in a newly cycled/established tank, but they will go away on there own. How many total watts are on the tank?


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## Bree

I'm glad you brought this up, its exactly what i am trying to figure out!! I will be sticking around to see more answers!


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## oscarsx

Regenesis said:


> Is this tank newly set-up? Brown algae -- Diatoms -- usually grow in a newly cycled/established tank, but they will go away on there own. How many total watts are on the tank?


^^^ This..

That's exactly the problem I had... It has to do with newly cycled tanks, they will go away on their own. I hear Otto's are goo for this type of job.. they will rid your tank of Diatoms in no time.:biggrin:


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## VeeSe

I have the diatom problem too for a newly set up and cycled tank (cycle completed 1 week ago), and there's brown diatom algae all over my plant leaves. If I'm waiting for it to go away on its own, roughly how long will this take?


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## Bree

oscarsx said:


> ^^^ This..
> 
> That's exactly the problem I had... It has to do with newly cycled tanks, they will go away on their own. I hear Otto's are goo for this type of job.. they will rid your tank of Diatoms in no time.:biggrin:



Not always. My tank had been cycled for a year and has never had an algae problem, its completely established yet i have a huge diatom problem now. My ottos don't help, and i have had this problem going on 3 months. I wipe- it comes back and so on.

My problem is the silicates in my local water are rather high, so filter your water before adding it, R/O (i wouldn't bother with this though, doesn't always work, is expensive etc.) or add some kind of silicates/ phosphate remover....I have no idea if any of that works...but its worth a shot.

OH! And i have added an extra filter to the tank so increased water flow with carbon. This will help take away extra nutrients and help stop extra diatoms from establishing.


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## Bree

But again i would love to hear what others say about the light, i have heard so many conflicting opinions, and so would love to hear some hard evidence about this topic...Would be super helpful for the OP, me and MANY others!!


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## Regenesis

VeeSe said:


> I have the diatom problem too for a newly set up and cycled tank (cycle completed 1 week ago), and there's brown diatom algae all over my plant leaves. If I'm waiting for it to go away on its own, roughly how long will this take?


Really, It just depends on different things, but It will go away.


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## btimmer92

What? no! don't let any sunlight fall on your tank, that's bad!


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## JoraaÑ

Get some otos they take care the rest. Further read here


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## audioaficionado

Joraan said:


> Get some otos they take care the rest. Further read here


Thanx for that link.


> *Description* Forms in brown patches on the glass, substrate and plants. *Cause* Usually found in newly setup tanks due to silicates and ammonia as the filter and substrate have yet to mature. *Removal* Can be vacuumed out or wiped of the glass with a soft cloth. Usually disappears after a few weeks when the tank has matured. Otocinclus will eat it.


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## ADA

oscarsx said:


> ^^^ This..
> 
> That's exactly the problem I had... It has to do with newly cycled tanks, they will go away on their own. I hear Otto's are goo for this type of job.. they will rid your tank of Diatoms in no time.:biggrin:





Regenesis said:


> Is this tank newly set-up? Brown algae -- Diatoms -- usually grow in a newly cycled/established tank, but they will go away on there own. How many total watts are on the tank?


About 2 months running.. Not sure of the wattage, I'm running LED light strips from Marineland (2 fixtures, each one is the "Doublebright" model.)
I have 4 otos, not touching it.
The problem is, even if they go away on their own, by the time they're gone, so are most of my plants, from being smothered. 




Bree said:


> Not always. My tank had been cycled for a year and has never had an algae problem, its completely established yet i have a huge diatom problem now. My ottos don't help, and i have had this problem going on 3 months. I wipe- it comes back and so on.
> 
> My problem is the silicates in my local water are rather high, so filter your water before adding it, R/O (i wouldn't bother with this though, doesn't always work, is expensive etc.) or add some kind of silicates/ phosphate remover....I have no idea if any of that works...but its worth a shot.
> 
> OH! And i have added an extra filter to the tank so increased water flow with carbon. This will help take away extra nutrients and help stop extra diatoms from establishing.


Maybe I'll try running an additional filter. Thanks.




btimmer92 said:


> What? no! don't let any sunlight fall on your tank, that's bad!


Even just a sliver of sunlight, for about 30 mins/day?  hehe.






Joraan said:


> Get some otos they take care the rest. Further read here


I have four otos. All they do is (when I turn the light on in the morning) FREAK OUT and smash through as many of my delicate plants as they can in the least amount of time, uprooting. I think they get extra points for each uprooted plant. It's like a sport for them. Smashing their faces into the dirt, finding a nice patch of UG or HC that's just delicately managed to attach to the substrate, and then wiggling as violently as possible right on top of it.


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## stan

Ottos and cleaning my filter pipes cured my brown algae problem. Went completly over a weekend.


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## Higher Thinking

I dealt with this issue as well. It started at almost two months of running and lasted about three weeks. This is a good time to buy ottos as they need a good deal of it to help with the transition. You could use a silicate remover, but again, it will clear itself out with time.


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## Golightly

More light just means more algae. Also make sure you don't have them on for too long, max 10 hours per day. Direct sun light can easily be a problem even if it's only for an hour a day.

Are you sure the "brown algae" is diatoms? Sounds like your tank has cycled so it could be Rhizoclonium which is also brown. But Rhizoclonium is more like hair strands or clumps of long strands.. smothering everything. That you can get if you don't have enough of CO2 or fertilizers but lots of light. (You don't really mention if you have CO2 and what fertilizers you use)

When I first started with a tank I switched on all the lights that came with my fittings, 4 x 39w of T5HO.. the result was a huge outbreak of all types of algae including Rhizoclonium. So trust me, too much light will always = Algae! It's all about keeping a balance. The more light, the more CO2 and fertilizers you must have.

Have a look here to ID what you have and see the cause:

http://www.jsctech.co.uk/theplantedtank/algae.htm


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## Golightly

PS...

If it's not Diatoms, you could try overdosing with Excel. That can be effective against some types of algae including Rhizoclonium. But you must make sure to fix the cause of the problem first.


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## ADA

Golightly said:


> More light just means more algae. Also make sure you don't have them on for too long, max 10 hours per day. Direct sun light can easily be a problem even if it's only for an hour a day.
> 
> Are you sure the "brown algae" is diatoms? Sounds like your tank has cycled so it could be Rhizoclonium which is also brown. But Rhizoclonium is more like hair strands or clumps of long strands.. smothering everything. That you can get if you don't have enough of CO2 or fertilizers but lots of light. (You don't really mention if you have CO2 and what fertilizers you use)
> 
> When I first started with a tank I switched on all the lights that came with my fittings, 4 x 39w of T5HO.. the result was a huge outbreak of all types of algae including Rhizoclonium. So trust me, too much light will always = Algae! It's all about keeping a balance. The more light, the more CO2 and fertilizers you must have.
> 
> Have a look here to ID what you have and see the cause:
> 
> http://www.jsctech.co.uk/theplantedtank/algae.htm


Thanks! That's exactly the info I was looking for.

I can't tell though, whether it's Rhizoclonium or Diatoms. If I post a picture within 10 mins or so, will you be able to help me id it?


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## ADA

The issue I have with Co2 or especially Exel, is that I have high grade CRS in there. I'm afraid of killing them, I'm not experienced with Co2 (my other tank is fine, with pressurized co2) but I don't trust myself with shrimp and co2. 

Can you tell from these pics what kind of algae it is?


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## ADA

Oh, sorry.. I didn't give you the other info.

This tank is 12 gallons, EDIT, I now am running pressurized Co2, keeping levels at about 30ppm and using YamatoGreen-N ferts, eheim 2213 filter, 2x Marineland Doublebright light fixtures, ADA Aquasoil.

Actually, here's the tank: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/t...34094-12-gallon-long-crs-iwagumi-picture.html


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## Bree

Oh ya, thats not diatoms, thats either black beard algae or Rhizoclonium. my vote would be BBA though. SAE should clear that up, when young they love it, thats what i did to get rid of my BBA issue.


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## ADA

Bree said:


> Oh ya, thats not diatoms, thats either black beard algae or Rhizoclonium. my vote would be BBA though. SAE should clear that up, when young they love it, thats what i did to get rid of my BBA issue.


Uggh.. I have CRS in there, so I'm extremely cautious as to what fish I put in. I have 4 otos, they have not done much (if any) good.

I heard SAE can be aggressive? My shrimps are having babies too. I'm almost worried the otos will eat them.


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## Bree

The true SAE are not aggressive when young, i have 2 in my 20 gallon with baby adolfi corys and other smaller fish, not trouble at all...However they might eat the baby shrimp thinking their food...Hmm.

And SA's can get territorial when older and decide they don't like algae anymore- thats when you find them new homes. lol Its CAE's that do not want at all. They are mean and will suck onto other fish etc.

And i don't believe otos will touch BBA, could be wrong though, i would have to redo my research on that.


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## ADA

Bree said:


> The true SAE are not aggressive when young, i have 2 in my 20 gallon with baby adolfi corys and other smaller fish, not trouble at all...However they might eat the baby shrimp thinking their food...Hmm.
> 
> And SA's can get territorial when older and decide they don't like algae anymore- thats when you find them new homes. lol Its CAE's that do not want at all. They are mean and will suck onto other fish etc.
> 
> And i don't believe otos will touch BBA, could be wrong though, i would have to redo my research on that.


I just did some more research, and found a thread where someone else has the EXACT same algae.

I'm 99% sure it's not diatoms. I don't think it's Rhizoclonium or BBA either, as it's 100% brown, and never green. Both Rhizoclonium and BBA have at least some green to them?


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## ADA

Okay, here's another conflict of info.. 

Lot's of people say that algae can become a problem because when you don't dose enough ferts.

Then, people are also saying you should put loads of plants in there to suck up the extra nutrients, so the algae will starve.

The second one makes sense.. dosing ferts seems like it would feed the algae??


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## Bree

BBA doesn't, normally its either brown like yours or thick black stuff from what i have scene...Again i could be wrong..You should get more people with more experience here.


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## Bree

Oh my goosh, i know what you mean! Its killing me!! 

Basically different algaes are caused by different things, for example green spot algae is caused by not enough potassium i believe. Diatoms caused by to much phosphorous/ silicates, and the list goes on. This is why we need to make sure we are dealing with the right algae so you can treat it right! Some are caused by to much light, others not enough...
Seriously this stuff gets confusing...Trust me. lol


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## ADA

Ugghh yeah.. so frustrating. The worst thing (so far) is that I had such a beautiful carpet of UH, which has almost all either died off or been vacuumed out because of this stuff. I have a patch of Belem DHG and that's not looking good now. Covered in it.





Bree said:


> Oh my goosh, i know what you mean! Its killing me!!
> 
> Basically different algaes are caused by different things, for example green spot algae is caused by not enough potassium i believe. Diatoms caused by to much phosphorous/ silicates, and the list goes on. This is why we need to make sure we are dealing with the right algae so you can treat it right! Some are caused by to much light, others not enough...
> Seriously this stuff gets confusing...Trust me. lol


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## Bree

Yup, i know how it feels, my 20 gallon went through the same, the algae killed off all my water wisteria and all others plants in my tank, now i am left with one kind of plant which is still covered but growing, so i have once again a forest...Only its ugly and disorganized. haha

Which is why i hope you can get this sorted out before it gets as bad as mine has!!


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## Regenesis

Bree said:


> And SA's can get territorial when older and decide they don't like algae anymore- thats when you find them new homes. lol Its CAE's that do not want at all. They are mean and will suck onto other fish etc..


Actually, True Siamese Algae eater won't get aggressive even when older. I am thinking the it's the False Siamese Algae eater is what you are thinking that gets aggressive when older, but not the True Siames Algae eater.


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## Bree

Regenesis said:


> Actually, True Siamese Algae eater won't get aggressive even when older. I am thinking the it's the False Siamese Algae eater is what you are thinking that gets aggressive when older, but not the True Siames Algae eater.


Thanks for clarifying! I must have gotten them confused, i know that i have 2 true SAE so i do hope your right, its been to long since i last researched this stuff. lol


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## ADA

Bree said:


> Yup, i know how it feels, my 20 gallon went through the same, the algae killed off all my water wisteria and all others plants in my tank, now i am left with one kind of plant which is still covered but growing, so i have once again a forest...Only its ugly and disorganized. haha
> 
> Which is why i hope you can get this sorted out before it gets as bad as mine has!!


Aw, I'm sorry you're having troubles too  Let's hope we can find a solution here.

Btw, these forums are amazing. Thank you all.. I'm really happy to have found this place!


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## Regenesis

ADA said:


> Btw, these forums are amazing. Thank you all.. I'm really happy to have found this place!


I do too! I love this forum (Even out of all the forums I've been/are on, this one is the best). I hope to stay here for a long time!


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## audioaficionado

Well I didn't scrape or scrub a thing in my tank. Let's see how my 2 just purchased Otocinclus do with the brown spots.

Update: They're already making holes in the stuff and cleaning my crypts. I'll get another one later today as I've read they like at least 3 to keep company. Might not need any SAE.


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## ADA

audioaficionado said:


> Well I didn't scrape or scrub a thing in my tank. Let's see how my 2 just purchased Otocinclus do with the brown spots.
> 
> Update: They're already making holes in the stuff and cleaning my crypts. I'll get another one later today as I've read they like at least 3 to keep company. Might not need any SAE.



"brown spots" sounds like diatoms.. the otos will take care of that in a day or 2.  I wish I only had diatoms to worry about.


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## Golightly

ADA said:


> The issue I have with Co2 or especially Exel, is that I have high grade CRS in there. I'm afraid of killing them, I'm not experienced with Co2 (my other tank is fine, with pressurized co2) but I don't trust myself with shrimp and co2.
> 
> Can you tell from these pics what kind of algae it is?


I'm pretty sure what you have is Rhizoclonium. That's what I had as well when I first started. You need to make sure you supply enough CO2 + fertilizers. I'm guessing you have far too strong light but supply too little of everything else the plants needs. The more light you have, the more CO2 and fertilizers.. but that's also true the other way around too, if you reduce the light you have then it's easier for you to maintain a balance and can supply less of the rest. 

Rhizoclonium can easily be treated by a 3-day blackout and overdose of Excel. Sometimes it will even work with just overdosing excel. But you need to fix the cause of the problem. Which is probably not enough CO2, not enough flow and/or not enough fertilizers.


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## ADA

Golightly said:


> I'm pretty sure what you have is Rhizoclonium. That's what I had as well when I first started. You need to make sure you supply enough CO2 + fertilizers. I'm guessing you have far too strong light but supply too little of everything else the plants needs. The more light you have, the more CO2 and fertilizers.. but that's also true the other way around too, if you reduce the light you have then it's easier for you to maintain a balance and can supply less of the rest.
> 
> Rhizoclonium can easily be treated by a 3-day blackout and overdose of Excel. Sometimes it will even work with just overdosing excel. But you need to fix the cause of the problem. Which is probably not enough CO2, not enough flow and/or not enough fertilizers.


Thanks.. yeah I had 2 fixtures running (Marineland Doublebrights).. I thought the LED fixtures wouldn't supply enough light, but it looks like they run too bright. I have only one running now, and I don't have Co2 running on it, for fear of gassing out my shrimp, and can't use Excel (toxic to shimps)

I don't dose any ferts either.. I have some Yamatogreen-N, which I may start dosing? Would that be a good idea, even with the reduced light?


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## Golightly

ADA said:


> Thanks.. yeah I had 2 fixtures running (Marineland Doublebrights).. I thought the LED fixtures wouldn't supply enough light, but it looks like they run too bright. I have only one running now, and I don't have Co2 running on it, for fear of gassing out my shrimp, and can't use Excel (toxic to shimps)
> 
> I don't dose any ferts either.. I have some Yamatogreen-N, which I may start dosing? Would that be a good idea, even with the reduced light?


Well.. If you don't have any CO2 and no fertilizers you will always have algae and lots of it. Basically you're providing the perfect conditions for algae to grow, not plants. 

Shrimp is absolutely fine with Excel, I've dosed up to 3x over the normal dose and my shrimp have been fine (both amano and cherry shrimp). Normal CO2 is also fine for Shrimp.. all the really amazing tanks use high levels of CO2 + Shrimps.

Unless you supply both CO2 and fertilizers you won't get rid of the problem you have.


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## ADA

Golightly said:


> Well.. If you don't have any CO2 and no fertilizers you will always have algae and lots of it. Basically you're providing the perfect conditions for algae to grow, not plants.
> 
> Shrimp is absolutely fine with Excel, I've dosed up to 3x over the normal dose and my shrimp have been fine (both amano and cherry shrimp). Normal CO2 is also fine for Shrimp.. all the really amazing tanks use high levels of CO2 + Shrimps.
> 
> Unless you supply both CO2 and fertilizers you won't get rid of the problem you have.


I see.. Thanks for the advice. Maybe I'll add a pressurized Co2 rig to this tank then. Just edge it in slowly.. I'm scared of using Excel. When you used 3x over the normal amount, what kind of shrimp did you have? Some shrimp (snowball, RCS etc) are much more tolerant. Higher grade CRS are much more sensitive.


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## Golightly

ADA said:


> I see.. Thanks for the advice. Maybe I'll add a pressurized Co2 rig to this tank then. Just edge it in slowly.. I'm scared of using Excel. When you used 3x over the normal amount, what kind of shrimp did you have? Some shrimp (snowball, RCS etc) are much more tolerant. Higher grade CRS are much more sensitive.


You would only overdose Excel for a short period then follow the dosage on the bottle. I have both Amano and Cherry shrimp.


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## Aquachic

*Phosphate Levels*

I found I was overfeeding the first time I learned to set up my tank and had a brown algae outbreak. Basically, the phosphate levels were too high. I used SeaChem's phosphate removal products to reduce the phosphates. I also started looking at my foods to see what levels were in their products. A water change can also reduce phosphate.


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## ADA

I tried a semi blackout, for the past 3 days the tank's only been getting ambient light from the room. The algae has drastically reduced! Almost gone.

I'm going to run only one of my lights from now on until I get Co2 running on that tank.. cause was obviously an imbalance (too much light). Once I get Co2 and a good ferts schedule, I'll run both lights again.

Thanks for your advice everyone!


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## ADA

Hi again.. since that day when it looked like the algae had cleared up, it came back much worse, only a few days later. Nothing I do seems to have much of an effect.

I was wondering if this could be an option: Take out my shrimps (I only have 6 in there, easy to catch) and just turn up the co2 to a ridiculously high lever for a few hours. Would that work? After that, I could do a water change, and return the shrimp.

I have some plants in there that are sensitive (Downoi mainly).. would the high Co2 harm them? I also have a LOT of freshwater Limpets in there, and while I have read that they are harmless, they are a huge nuisance, and very unattractive when they are all over the glass, and sitting on my tiny plant leaves. The Co2 would help rid those too?

Thanks again


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## audioaficionado

Well my [STRIKE]five[/STRIKE] :frown: err four otos can't keep up. They make holes and tracks in it, but it is steadily getting more pervasive. Looks like a good scrub, vacuum, water change, Excel + blackout & another water change are in order. Got 1/2 bps DIY CO2, 2x39W T5HO/reflectors and some light liquid ferts. No green algae, just brown rust colored crap. Crypts and Anubias barteri 'Nana' are starting to grow faster now.


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## ADA

Here's what it looks like now.. 











There's a nice carpet of green algae as well now, but I think this is a good sign, and it looks really nice:














And, here are the test results.. so confused.. everything looks okay.

Ammonia 0 ppm
Nitrate 5.0 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
PH 6.8


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## Couesfanatic

The problem you have is too much light for having no co2 and no ferts. I would just run the one light and do the regular dose of excel until its gone. Then run just one light. I don't think a few hours of high co2 would do much. 

Audio, how many gallons is your tank? That is a lot of light you have also.


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## ADA

Couesfanatic said:


> The problem you have is too much light for having no co2 and no ferts. I would just run the one light and do the regular dose of excel until its gone. Then run just one light. I don't think a few hours of high co2 would do much.
> 
> Audio, how many gallons is your tank? That is a lot of light you have also.


Thanks for the advice.

It's 12 gallons. I have two Marineland doublebright fixtures running, because one on it's own is actually not very bright, and not recommended for a planted tank. 

I do have Co2 and ferts, as of about a week or so ago. I'm keeping the co2 levels at about 30ppm, and use YamatoGreen-N ferts.

Do you think running both lights is still too much light, even with co2 and ferts?


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## audioaficionado

Couesfanatic, I have a 40gal tall. (sig link)

ADA, what's you photo period and how are you checking your CO2 levels?


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## Couesfanatic

Those are LED fixtures correct? I know nothing about LED brightness. Just remember the general rule is the more light=more co2 needed and more ferts needed. Before it was obvious you had the light and needed co2 and ferts. Who knows now, your probably pretty close. What has the algae been doing since you added co2 and ferts? Have you plants growth changed?

Good job getting the co2 and ferts, it opens up so many more options/plants and potential. BTW, your 2.9 gallon Nano is very cool.


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## NJAquaBarren

ADA, I have one Double Bright on a 33g tank and it is growing several varieties of plants great. Try going with just one, it provides plenty of light.


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## ADA

audioaficionado said:


> Couesfanatic, I have a 40gal tall. (sig link)
> 
> ADA, what's you photo period and how are you checking your CO2 levels?


I'm ashamed to say, I rarely use my timer for the lights. Is that bad? I'm still a n00b. Having said that, I do have a somewhat regular photoperiod, because this tank is in my recording studio, and I work in there 7 days a week. I usually turn the lights on at around 8 or so in the morning, and off at 10 at night. So.. about 14 hours... cr*p.. that could be my problem.. I never really though about it. 14 hours seems too long. That's a longer than usual day though.. I think the lights are on every day for between 10 and 14 hrs.

I have a glass drop checker for Co2 levels.


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## Couesfanatic

audioaficionado said:


> Couesfanatic, I have a 40gal tall. (sig link)
> 
> ADA, what's you photo period and how are you checking your CO2 levels?


I'm betting you need more co2. 1/2 bps is very low for 40 gallons with that light.


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## Couesfanatic

ADA said:


> I'm ashamed to say, I rarely use my timer for the lights. Is that bad? I'm still a n00b. Having said that, I do have a somewhat regular photoperiod, because this tank is in my recording studio, and I work in there 7 days a week. I usually turn the lights on at around 8 or so in the morning, and off at 10 at night. So.. about 14 hours... cr*p.. that could be my problem.. I never really though about it. 14 hours seems too long. That's a longer than usual day though.. I think the lights are on every day for between 10 and 14 hrs.
> 
> I have a glass drop checker for Co2 levels.


I don't know if its bad, but a timer would help. I would set it up on a timer, cut it back to 9 hours or so.


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## ADA

Couesfanatic said:


> Those are LED fixtures correct? I know nothing about LED brightness. Just remember the general rule is the more light=more co2 needed and more ferts needed. Before it was obvious you had the light and needed co2 and ferts. Who knows now, your probably pretty close. What has the algae been doing since you added co2 and ferts? Have you plants growth changed?
> 
> Good job getting the co2 and ferts, it opens up so many more options/plants and potential. BTW, your 2.9 gallon Nano is very cool.



Thanks  The 2.9 is so easy! Had it running for quite a long time and never had a bad algae issue.

It's only been about a week I think since I added ferts and co2. I haven't noticed a lot of difference in plant growth, or algae reduction. I actually have a slightly OT question.. how often should I dose (using the recommended ml per gallon dose)? Should I dose every time I change the water? I do water changes every 2 or 3 days, usually about 30% - 40% water change. YamatoGreen recommends dosing once a week, but they also recommend one water change per week. If I change the water more frequently, wouldn't I be removing the ferts, so have to re-dose?


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## ADA

NJAquaBarren said:


> ADA, I have one Double Bright on a 33g tank and it is growing several varieties of plants great. Try going with just one, it provides plenty of light.


Thanks! How deep (tall) is your tank, and what length light strip do you have? Also, some plants require much higher light than others (as I'm sure you know).. I'm aware that the doublebright will be enough light for some plant species, but I'm growing plants like HC, Belem Grass, UG etc which require high light.


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## ADA

Couesfanatic said:


> I don't know if its bad, but a timer would help. I would set it up on a timer, cut it back to 9 hours or so.


Will try that for sure. Can I split it up? 4 hours in the morning, then 5 hours evening? (I guess there would be some room light during the time in between, but it's pretty dark in the tank even daytime with the lights off)


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## Couesfanatic

Yes you would. Why are you doing so many water changes? I would do one water change a week and dose whenever the instructions say to. I'm not familiar with Yomatogreen. Is it a macro mix?

I'm doing a 5.5 gallon Mini m emersed right now. I will be filling it up next week. So for dosing I'm going to do EI. Dose daily and water change on sundays. I'm going to follow the sticky exactly. Everyone I have seen than follows EI exactly has great results. It makes sense to me, provide an excess of ferts all week and reset the system once a week by water change. You should set a schedule for changes and ferts and stick to it. Consistency is king once you get things in order.

Yes, lots of people split the light period up with no problems.


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## ADA

Couesfanatic said:


> Yes you would. Why are you doing so many water changes? I would do one water change a week and dose whenever the instructions say to. I'm not familiar with Yomatogreen. Is it a macro mix?
> 
> I'm doing a 5.5 gallon Mini m emersed right now. I will be filling it up next week. So for dosing I'm going to do EI. Dose daily and water change on sundays. I'm going to follow the sticky exactly. Everyone I have seen than follows EI exactly has great results. It makes sense to me, provide an excess of ferts all week and reset the system once a week by water change. You should set a schedule for changes and ferts and stick to it. Consistency is king once you get things in order.
> 
> Yes, lots of people split the light period up with no problems.


That's great advice.. I'll do that too, starting today.

YamatoGreen is Macro/Micro I think.. apparently it's very good.. I know some other ppl who use it exclusively, and their plants look amazing. http://www.yamatogreen.com/

The reason I am doing so many water changes, is because of the algae. Every few days, I have to vacuum it off the plants/substrate, otherwise it will completely take over. Doing this can be tedious, and by the time I'm done vacuuming, 30% or so of the water is gone.


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## Couesfanatic

ADA said:


> The reason I am doing so many water changes, is because of the algae. Every few days, I have to vacuum it off the plants/substrate, otherwise it will completely take over. Doing this can be tedious, and by the time I'm done vacuuming, 30% or so of the water is gone.


That makes sense. With your light/co2/ferts balanced you shouldn't be getting that much algae. Watch it, hopefully it slows since you added co2/ferts.


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## ADA

Couesfanatic said:


> That makes sense. With your light/co2/ferts balanced you shouldn't be getting that much algae. Watch it, hopefully it slows since you added co2/ferts.


That's what I'm hoping for.

Thanks again, I'll keep posting here every week to let you know how it goes.


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## audioaficionado

ADA said:


> I'm ashamed to say, I rarely use my timer for the lights. Is that bad? I'm still a n00b. Having said that, I do have a somewhat regular photoperiod, because this tank is in my recording studio, and I work in there 7 days a week. I usually turn the lights on at around 8 or so in the morning, and off at 10 at night. So.. about 14 hours... cr*p.. that could be my problem.. I never really though about it. 14 hours seems too long. That's a longer than usual day though.. I think the lights are on every day for between 10 and 14 hrs.
> 
> I have a glass drop checker for Co2 levels.


Since you have two fixtures, get two timers. Set one to turn on in the morning, the second one towards the middle of the photo period to give your plants a nice midday light burst with both fixtures on. In the afternoon have the first fixture turn off and then the second light in the evening. I'd try for a 10 hour photo period with 3 hour burst overlap. Make small changes and watch for the trends before making more small changes.



Couesfanatic said:


> I'm betting you need more co2. 1/2 bps is very low for 40 gallons with that light.


You are probably right. On DIY CO2, it's hard to regulate 3 cups sugar in 3.5 qts water to get more. Someday I'll get a pressurized system, but not for awhile. I'll play with my photo period instead. I'm running 12hrs w/4 hr burst period. I'll drop it to 10&3.


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## ADA

audioaficionado said:


> Since you have two fixtures, get two timers. Set one to turn on in the morning, the second one towards the middle of the photo period to give your plants a nice midday light burst with both fixtures on. In the afternoon have the first fixture turn off and then the second light in the evening. I'd try for a 10 hour photo period with 3 hour burst overlap. Make small changes and watch for the trends before making more small changes.


OMG, that is SUCH a great idea. I'm going out today to get another timer. The awesome thing is, the lights slope inwards towards each other, so if I do like you said, there will be "morning sin" from one direction, Midday sun from both, and afternoon sun from the other direction. Genius.  Thanks!


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## NJAquaBarren

The 36" light is 20" off the substrate. 



ADA said:


> Thanks! How deep (tall) is your tank, and what length light strip do you have? Also, some plants require much higher light than others (as I'm sure you know).. I'm aware that the doublebright will be enough light for some plant species, but I'm growing plants like HC, Belem Grass, UG etc which require high light.


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## ADA

NJAquaBarren said:


> The 36" light is 20" off the substrate.


Krikey.. That's higher than my TWO lights. You could have a point! lol.

My 2 36" lights are about 10" off the substrate.


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## audioaficionado

@ ADA, don't make too many or too drastic of changes too fast or you won't know what is causing what. Just tweak you photo periods and watch for awhile. Then tweak it some more as needed. Your lights and wood mounting frame are sweet and really make your tank look great and dangling them over the top might not look as good. Oh and moar pics of your wife :biggrin:


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## ADA

audioaficionado said:


> @ ADA, don't make too many or too drastic of changes too fast or you won't know what is causing what. Just tweak you photo periods and watch for awhile. Then tweak it some more as needed. Your lights and wood mounting frame are sweet and really make your tank look great and dangling them over the top might not look as good. Oh and moar pics of your wife :biggrin:


LOL! 

Too late.. I already dangled them! :/

So.. here's the plan.

1. Timers; I added a timer to each light strip. I'm going to start off with about the same photoperiod as I have been running (longer than usual) and make small adjustments. The difference is, instead of running two lights for the whole photoperiod, I'm doing 8am - 11am (back light only, which is at an angle due to my curved wooden fixture, mimicking morning sun) then both lights together for about 3 hours mimicking bright midday sun, then the front light by itself until 8pm, mimicking afternoon sun..
**Thanks for this awesome idea.. I love it!**

2. Height. I've also raised the fixture a few inches, using my new chain/ceiling mount. (pics here: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/t...-gallon-panoramic-mountain-plains-pics-7.html )

3. Water changes, Co2 and ferts; I'm going to do 2 water changes per week. 30% on Sundays and 30% on Thursdays. Does this seem like too much? At least while I try to figure the algae out.. if everything stabilizes, I'll probably just do one WC per week.
After each WC, I'll dose with YamatoGreen-N.. should I add smaller doses in between water changes? 

I'll keep this thread up to date with progress.


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## ADA

audioaficionado said:


> @ ADA, Oh and moar pics of your wife :biggrin:


Ahem.. OT... OT OT.. but you did give me the awesome sun-mimicking idea, so, alright.


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## audioaficionado

Now that you've raised your lights, you might be able to run the lights with a full 12 hr photo period and perhaps a 4 hr blast in the middle. #1 0800-1600 (4pm) #2 1200-2000 (8pm). It's best to balance the hours between lights if you can.

You guys make a cute couple.


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## ADA

audioaficionado said:


> Now that you've raised your lights, you might be able to run the lights with a full 12 hr photo period and perhaps a 4 hr blast in the middle. #1 0800-1600 (4pm) #2 1200-2000 (8pm). It's best to balance the hours between lights if you can.
> 
> You guys make a cute couple.


Thanks 

True.. I didn't think of that either. I'll do that.. 8 hrs each light with a 4 hr overlap.


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## audioaficionado

Sure beats running both for 14 hrs and making split pea soup in your tank LOL.


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## ADA

audioaficionado said:


> Sure beats running both for 14 hrs and making split pea soup in your tank LOL.


lol! boo.. :'(

I hope this fixes it.. it sucks.


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## ADA

It's so bad.. I know I'm not supposed to do anything drastic, but I can't stand it. I'm raising the lights another 6 inches, and only running one light for now, for 9 hours a day. Then ease it in.. start adding the other light for short time, longer etc.


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## shrimpnmoss

Did you try snails? Toss in some Nerites and I'd yank all the nasty plants with the stringy stuff replant with healthy plants and 2-3X as much density and try to find new balance...more healthy plants easier to balance IMO.

I'm about to buy some coffee from those two people in the last pic.:hihi:


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## ADA

Yes, we make the coffee look delicious, no? haha.. 

I actually did put 2 nerites in a week or so ago, but think I need more to make an impact. I'm waiting on another 10 to arrive.

The planting idea is a good one I think.. I already removed all my Belem Grass  Sigh


Pics when they come.


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## ADA

Another strange thing I noticed today.. I have floaters in there (Amazon Frogbit).. this horrible algae is all over the roots, directly under the leaves.. could this mean that it's not being caused by a light issue? There's no light on the roots. Being shaded by the leaves.

My water is always yellow too.. even after water changes. Could this yellow water, and brown algae both be caused by a bad batch of ADA Aquasoil?


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## shrimpnmoss

try some purigen...looks like you are pretty handy...check this purigen reactor out...pretty cool...I want to build one of these for my next tank.

http://socalaquascapers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5549


It just sounds like your tank is off balance....too much light...too much ferts...too little ferts...too much phosphorous...too much silicone...blah blah blah...who really knows...well that Tom Barr does...but average Joe is not that high level.

I can't keep track seriously....I just try and balance with my gut feeling and the more experience I get the quicker I reach "zen" state with my tanks. Also the more plants I pack in the quicker I reach zen state too. Sorry for not being more scientific.


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## ADA

Uggh.. this is horrible. I don't know what's causing this algae problem. One thing that I'm pretty sure of though is that my setup is not the reason. I have Co2, tried lowering and increasing light, and I have another tank that's in the exact conditions with absolutely no algae issues.

Another thing I'm pretty sure of, is that it's contagious. I have a really small tank as well, that I use to hold plants and I moved some of my expensive plants that were being smothered by this algae, into the small tank. Now the small tank has the exact same horrible algae everywhere. 

My third tank is my pride and joy. I very stupidly caught a couple of fish from one of the infected tanks and put them into my clean tank.. I'm pretty sure I've now infected my third tank. That was just yesterday and today I noticed what looks like a tiny fine thread of this stuff in my third tank. I'm so disheartened and feel like giving up.

I'm trying a couple of things right now. On the very small tank, I turned the Co2 WAY up to like 10bps. Going to see if that kills it. There are no fish in there.

On my 12g Long, I unplugged the lights. It still gets room light, but its mostly dark in there. Just going to leave it like that until I see some change. My nice plants will likely die because the lights are off, but they're getting smothered anyway.. 

Here are a couple of pics of this horrible stuff. Makes me want to throw up.


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## audioaficionado

I'd say you might want to get a large jug of Excel and try that w/3day blackouts. Move your shrimp to safe havens as you work through the tanks.


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## ADA

audioaficionado said:


> I'd say you might want to get a large jug of Excel and try that w/3day blackouts. Move your shrimp to safe havens as you work through the tanks.


Thanks.. I think you're right. Problem is, my shrimps had babies, which are next to impossible to find.. But I'm just going to have to do my best. I'll lose some for sure though. Thanks


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## audioaficionado

Amano shrimp are supposed to like hair algae.


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## ADA

I don't think it's hair algae. It's brown, but dries green. It coats everything but it breaks easily so it can't be removed with a toothbrush like Hair Algae can.


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## audioaficionado

Looks fuzzy like a hair or filament algae would, unless that's just dirty glass we're looking through.


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## ADA

audioaficionado said:


> Looks fuzzy like a hair or filament algae would, unless that's just dirty glass we're looking through.


It's not dirty glass.. gosh. I thought hair algae was green though.. ?


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## ADA

So far, after a few days with the Co2 running at about 10bps, day and night.. Algae is crazy! there's more algae in there than open space. Its utterly un-effected by the Co2, or if the Co2 has any effect at all, it makes this algae grow faster and bigger.

It's so bad now.

That's in the tiny 2gal tank. My 12g tank I have left the lights off for the past few days, it only gets room light in the daytime and it's pretty dark in there. Still have Co2 running at about 1bps. The algae in there has reduced quite significantly.

The only thing is, the plants are obviously suffering from lack of light. As soon as I put them back on, the algae blooms. Even with the lights lifted to about a foot away from the top of the tank, and only one light running instead of 2.

I need a way to actually kill every last piece of this algae, so that it won't come back when the lights go on. Something tells me that's pretty much impossible though.


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## gagaliya

Regenesis said:


> Actually, True Siamese Algae eater won't get aggressive even when older. I am thinking the it's the False Siamese Algae eater is what you are thinking that gets aggressive when older, but not the True Siames Algae eater.


Actually this is not true, it's per individual fish only. I had true sae in all my tanks ( 100% sure it's true sae) and it gets very aggressive and territorial once older. It killed many of my smaller fish by chasing them around constantly nonstop. Just gave my last one away today because it wouldnt stop uprooting my new belem carpet. Those are beautiful fish, but honestly they are more trouble than worth in anything less than a 50+ gallon tank. And it didnt do much for algae at all.

-----------

Ada, you barely got the basics down just weeks ago, there is no magic just patience, it takes time for things to balance out. I cant believe there are 4 pages to this thread before pressurized co2 is installed.....

1) Crank up your co2 as high as your fish can stand (stop once they are grasping for air near the surface).
2) Leave your marine led for 11 hours day, do not interrupt the photo period in between by turning it off and on.
3) Do daily dosing if you can, in small amounts. Dose K more than what the bottle says, and NP a bit less than what the bottle says. Dont forget micro too. And 20% weekly water change is more than enough.
4) Pull out all the visible algae you see with a chopstick. Roll it up.
5) Float some anacharis in the tank on top (tie the end to part of the tank). 
6) Wait....
7) Wait some more....
8) Once the algae is gone, slowly remove the anacharis by cutting it off and leave smaller and smaller stem in there. At the same time, your other plants should be turning healthy. 
9) Remove the anacharis altogether, and maintain the schedule. 

With exception of otto which attacks specific type of algae. All those other cleaners wont do jack if your tank is out of balance like this. 

There is no rocket science, just patience, fast growing plants, high co2, and a balanced macro/micro dosing with 2.5 wpg light.

This is the lumen rating for your double bright led, find the version you have to determine lighting condition, subtract 20% from the listed lumen rating.

18-24" 6 3 450Lumens
24-36" 8 4 600Lumens 
36-48" 16 8 1,200Lumens

EDIT: also are you sure your co2 is diffused properly? What are you using to diffuse the co2 into the tank.


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## ADA

gagaliya said:


> Actually this is not true, it's per individual fish only. I had true sae in all my tanks ( 100% sure it's true sae) and it gets very aggressive and territorial once older. It killed many of my smaller fish by chasing them around constantly nonstop. Just gave my last one away today because it wouldnt stop uprooting my new belem carpet. Those are beautiful fish, but honestly they are more trouble than worth in anything less than a 50+ gallon tank. And it didnt do much for algae at all.
> 
> -----------
> 
> Ada, you barely got the basics down just weeks ago, there is no magic just patience, it takes time for things to balance out. I cant believe there are 4 pages to this thread before pressurized co2 is installed.....
> 
> 1) Crank up your co2 as high as your fish can stand (stop once they are grasping for air near the surface).
> 2) Leave your marine led for 11 hours day, do not interrupt the photo period in between by turning it off and on.
> 3) Do daily dosing if you can, in small amounts. Dose K more than what the bottle says, and NP a bit less than what the bottle says. Dont forget micro too. And 20% weekly water change is more than enough.
> 4) Pull out all the visible algae you see with a chopstick. Roll it up.
> 5) Float some anacharis in the tank on top (tie the end to part of the tank).
> 6) Wait....
> 7) Wait some more....
> 8) Once the algae is gone, slowly remove the anacharis by cutting it off and leave smaller and smaller stem in there. At the same time, your other plants should be turning healthy.
> 9) Remove the anacharis altogether, and maintain the schedule.
> 
> With exception of otto which attacks specific type of algae. All those other cleaners wont do jack if your tank is out of balance like this.
> 
> There is no rocket science, just patience, fast growing plants, high co2, and a balanced macro/micro dosing with 2.5 wpg light.
> 
> This is the lumen rating for your double bright led, find the version you have to determine lighting condition, subtract 20% from the listed lumen rating.
> 
> 18-24" 6 3 450Lumens
> 24-36" 8 4 600Lumens
> 36-48" 16 8 1,200Lumens
> 
> EDIT: also are you sure your co2 is diffused properly? What are you using to diffuse the co2 into the tank.


Awesome! Thank you for all of this! Will you pls help me with a few questions? I plan to following each instruction as closely as possible. 

So,

(1) I have 4 Otos, and 6 SS+ CRS in there. No other inhabitants. How would I know when there's too much for the shrimp? They're more sensitive to Co2 than fish, and I'm worried about killing them.

(2) Will adjust photoperiod to 11hrs. (I have 2 Marineland Doublebrights). I lifted them to about 12 inches above the top of the tank, which is roughly 20 inches from the substrate.

(3) I really am new to ferts.. I only currently use "YamatoGreen - N" which I was told covers everything. Will this work, if I dose daily? I also Have "Flourish Comprehensive and Flourish Excel".. I don't use the "comprehensive".. got it before Yamato Green was recommended to me. I just started using the Excel, as per label. Will that help? I've been told that Excel used in conjunction with pressurized Co2 helps a lot with algae.. again, I'm worried about my shrimp using Excel. Will keep it to 20% waterchange once a week.

(4) I suck out as much as I can when I do water change. The problem with using a toothbrush or chopstick, is that it's really delicate and breaks up when I try to remove. The only way I've been able to remove is sucking with the syphon. 

(5) Just went out and bought some anacharis. 

(6 & 7).................. ..... ................. . .... .... . . . . ... .... . . . . . . . .

(8 & 9) Fingers crossed that I get to that stage.

I'm using an ebay (China) glass diffuser. 

I have the 36-48 (so that's 1200 Lumens).. I have two of them, so total of 2400 Lumens. Sorry, I'm confused about what you meant by subtract 20%.. my tank is 12 gallon, but it's only about 8" of water over the substrate. 12 gallons, but really long and low.

Once again, thanks so much for your advice and time.


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## ADA

I just wanted to let you know, that I am finally seeing results. I'm tentatively optimistic. Doing everything you said to do, and I have seen no signs of new algae growth in the past few days. This is a big deal, as before I was getting a huge amount every day.
The algae that is still in there, that I wasnt able to remove is actually starting to break apart and disappear too! 
Thanks soo much for the advice!! I'm still not in the clear, but am making a lot of progress!


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## Kathyy

Great! Feels pretty good beating down a plague, doesn't it? Hope you took some pictures to show how it is vanishing.


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## ADA

Kathyy said:


> Great! Feels pretty good beating down a plague, doesn't it? Hope you took some pictures to show how it is vanishing.


Yesssss!!! If feels amazing. I did take some pics. Will post soon


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## shrimpnmoss

Congrats!!!! YAY!


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## ADA

So, as you can see, there is still some residue from the algae, but it's disappearing fast. 

Now I just have to wait for the plants to start taking off again.


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## ADA

More details on this tank if you click on the link at the bottom of all my posts.


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## audioaficionado

I like the Pandora floating rocks theme


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## gagaliya

good job ada, i really like the 12g scape too. 

careful with those speakers, 1 wrong click and they will blast you out of your chair


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## ADA

gagaliya said:


> good job ada, i really like the 12g scape too.
> 
> careful with those speakers, 1 wrong click and they will blast you out of your chair


Hahah.. you have them too? They are nice speakers huh.


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## DaydreamBeliever

ADA said:


> I have four otos. All they do is (when I turn the light on in the morning) FREAK OUT and smash through as many of my delicate plants as they can in the least amount of time, uprooting. I think they get extra points for each uprooted plant. It's like a sport for them. Smashing their faces into the dirt, finding a nice patch of UG or HC that's just delicately managed to attach to the substrate, and then wiggling as violently as possible right on top of it.


I had to register JUST because of this comment. Thank you for the laugh. My Oto loves tearing up my plants as well, drives me bat-shat crazy!


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