# Is there any detriment to detritus?



## longgonedaddy (Dec 9, 2012)

Some people will say it's a nitrate factory, but I see it like you do, a great place for the shrimp and fry to graze. Proper water management will address the nitrates.


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## 691175002 (Apr 28, 2009)

In my experience it doesn't cause any immediate problems, but as it builds up the water parameters in your tank will drift away from tap water. This makes moving fish between tanks (or adding storebought fish) more challenging.

Some really mature lowtech tanks can hit 400-2000 TDS and while the existing fish might be perfectly happy it will be almost impossible to add or remove fish that are used to tapwater.

Its not really a problem, but I would occasionally clean some of it up.


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## FisheriesOmen (Jan 14, 2012)

longgonedaddy said:


> Some people will say it's a nitrate factory, but I see it like you do, a great place for the shrimp and fry to graze. Proper water management will address the nitrates.





691175002 said:


> In my experience it doesn't cause any immediate problems, but as it builds up the water parameters in your tank will drift away from tap water. This makes moving fish between tanks (or adding storebought fish) more challenging.
> 
> Some really mature lowtech tanks can hit 400-2000 TDS and while the existing fish might be perfectly happy it will be almost impossible to add or remove fish that are used to tapwater.
> 
> Its not really a problem, but I would occasionally clean some of it up.


So I do regular weekly water changes of at least 50%. Would that be enough to maintain more "normal" levels of water parameters? I will be taking fry from this tank occasionally so I don't want to overly stress them out in transition.

Thanks!


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## 691175002 (Apr 28, 2009)

Your best bet is to get a TDS meter and see. In my experience the TDS of a tank tends to be quite sticky and even large water changes will revert quickly.

I'm not sure what is generally considered to be an acceptable TDS difference when moving fish, but I would probably try to keep the tank within 200ppm of tap water.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

My instinct would be to use a powerhead to churn that crapola up into the water stream serviced by the filter.
I don't even like gravel as it is basically a giant nitrate sink..


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## M Allred (Jan 13, 2017)

Your present fauna may thrive in that "soup", but you may eventually kill new additions.
After suffering a major "bad" bacteria problem a couple of years ago, causing me to lose several prized Angelfish, 
I did a bunch of research on probiotics. 
I had simply removed a huge 2 year old Amazon Sword Plant, the disturbed substrate killed 6 fish. 
If I hadn't done a Potassium Permanganate dip with the others, I would have lost more.
Not only killed my fish, but a dozen of a friends fish I gave the Swordplant to! 
My 125 had zero mulm on the substrate. At a bare minimum, I would vacuum that crap out. 
I now dose my tanks with "beneficial bacteria, to reduce mulm, and organic material.
I also feed probiotic flake. 
It also populates the "gut" of your livestock, building up their immunity to "nasties"  
An added benefit is crystal clear water! ( I also use Purigen). 
My 4 year old sump under my 65 had 1 1/2" of mulm, like in your pictures, beneath the bio chamber. 
There is now NONE. The bacteria eat it. A lot less filter cleaning too! 
Sorry for the long post, just some food for thought...


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

M Allred said:


> Not only killed my fish, but a dozen of a friends fish I gave the Swordplant to!


We might conclude that pulling a well established plant with extensive roots could have released gases and undesirable bacteria into the water column, but putting that plant in another aquarium shouldn't have killed his fish - This seems like a bit of a mystery to me.

To the OP...what are your Nitrates? Besides being unsightly, it would seem that such a level of detritus would result in very high nitrates.


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## M Allred (Jan 13, 2017)

AbbeysDad,
I am sure gas wasn't an issue, as I put 1200 gph through a wet/dry filter. 
After a PP dip a day later one of the survivors had 50% of his fins dissolved to fin rot, THAT fast! 
(that fish regrew all of his finnage, and is still alive today!) 
Don't know what it was, but it was aggressive!
If this nasty stuff was in the substrate, in contact with the root mass, it would make sense to me it would be in the roots too. Also I doubt every bit of Ecocomplete was flushed from the root mass.


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## TankPlanter (May 31, 2015)

Good question! My gut reaction as a low tech Walstad-oriented person would be to just let it be, esp as it's just in the back- but science-wise, it's more complicated. I don't know the answer, but here are some variables that I'd expect would be in it- (as a scientist- but I'm less aquarium experienced than others here)

-TDS, as others have mentioned above

- anaerobic heterotrophic vs aerobic autotrophic bacteria. In brief, the decomposing bacteria multiply much faster and in some cases compete w your "good" bacteria. If your ammonia and nitrate parameters are generally good, then the primary issue would be upon disturbance. Dunno if you have MTS keeping some aeration?

- ammonia generated from high levels of decomposition- again, if your params are happy then it can be primarily a disturbance issue.And there is less ammonia in that type of matter.

- food source. Different substrate areas and available organic substrates might produce different critters that you do or don't want, depending (detritus worms, ostracods vs planaria, etc.)

Bacteria in the Freshwater Aquarium | Shrimpoly


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## Aquaticz (Dec 26, 2009)

I'd use a DIY water bottle filter with a real high gph for ½ - ¾ of an hour


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

M Allred said:


> AbbeysDad,
> I am sure gas wasn't an issue, as I put 1200 gph through a wet/dry filter.
> After a PP dip a day later one of the survivors had 50% of his fins dissolved to fin rot, THAT fast!
> (that fish regrew all of his finnage, and is still alive today!)
> ...


Accelerated finrot could suggest that aggressive decomposition bacteria was released when the plant was pulled. This bacteria would be secure deep in the substrate regardless of filter flow rates. 
Mind you that I'm just 'spitballing' here since I've never heard of moving plants killing fish before. Then again, I don't think I've ever seen a tank with such piles of detritus!

I generally tend to think that organic fertilizer is a good thing and sometimes [planted] tanks can be cleaned in excess removing these, only to require additional chemical fertilizer additives to satisfy plant needs. However, a tank with excess piles of detritus that isn't being properly decomposed is likely a potential negative. I have a lot of fish and a silica sand substrate with MTS and I rarely see any detritus. 
Again, what are the nitrates?


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

It's a good indicator your biofiltration capacity is lacking.


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## Supreme Fish (Dec 24, 2014)

I am suspicious that feeding numerous baby plecos probably creates a bit more waste than normal. I leave the detritus in my planted tank, but I don't think I could build that much detritus even if I tried.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

I need to vacuum my bare bottom pleco baby tanks daily, they create that much waste.
But a tank with the appropriate amount of flow will never collect that much crap outside of the filter.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

M Allred said:


> I did a bunch of research on probiotics.
> I now dose my tanks with "beneficial bacteria, to reduce mulm, and organic material.
> I also feed probiotic flake.


I'm interested in learning about these products. Can you list specific names and how you use them, please?


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

There are a number of products which claim to use bacteria.
You could also use potassium permanganate (instructions on wikipedia I think), but you would want to take the livestock out first.
I think you could use double dose Jungle clearwater if ou are scared of the permanganate grains.


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## M Allred (Jan 13, 2017)

Tanks!, 
Stresszyme is a good product, and works. Liquid addition to water. 
Cobalt fishfood is probiotic also.

There is an interesting 4 year running thread on probiotics on the Monster Fishkeepers site.


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## redavalanche (Dec 7, 2014)

FisheriesOmen said:


> My question is, do I even need to worry about it at all?


No disrespect intended... But I don't like it. If I were there I would offer to vac it up for ya. :smile2:


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## FisheriesOmen (Jan 14, 2012)

redavalanche said:


> No disrespect intended... But I don't like it. If I were there I would offer to vac it up for ya. :smile2:


No disrespect taken. I wouldn't have posted this if I didn't want feedback ^^

I have started vacuuming out the detritus during my water changes and plan to add two 80gph pumps in the bottom-back corners since my return flow isn't strong enough to stir it up.


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## redavalanche (Dec 7, 2014)

Will be interesting to know how this works for you and if there are other positive outcomes from the cleanup.


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## An_Outlier (Jan 13, 2015)

You can't use bacteria to completely remove detritus. Matter and energy are proportional quantities, and life on this planet is only 10% energy efficient. Adding some beneficial bacteria to your tank might reduce detritus a little, but a lot of those products are snake oil unless they are used very specifically, and even then they will not eliminate all detritus.

The main issues with detritus occur when it piles up too much, and include:

1) Potential hiding places for parasites and other pathogens

2) Creation of anoxic zones. If you really have a lot of detritus, anoxic zones can form near the substrate, and animals that move through them can be incapacitated and killed. 

Whether or not detritus is a source of excess nitrates depends on how old it is. If it's mostly broken-down biomass, then by definition there isn't enough nitrogen left in it for nitrate to form. 

Detritus occurs by the ton in many freshwater habitats, but no matter how pretty our tanks look, we could never imitate those systems. We can't match the processes that produce and decompose that inert biomass in relatively small volumes of water; even small ponds can hold around 1,000 gallons of water, and a large pond or a small lake would tens of thousands of gallons. Because of this disparity, it's not wise to allow detritus to build up like that. Every time I've accidentally allowed it to happen, I've paid for it in fish. 

And yeah, you should run a gravel vac in there to pick up the detritus on your substrate. Put a chunk of coarse-grade reticulated foam in the business end to avoid sucking up your fish.


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## Rinfish (Aug 16, 2015)

While you remove the deritus, i would balance the bacteria numbers by adding seachem stability or pristine, to make sure the numbers stay at a decent level. You have no way of knowing how much bacteria is in that stuff!

I think its good to remove it though, personally. I agree that it will be temporary stability; its a small environment and eventually, it'll become too much for the tank to handle. I always vac my top layer of gravel during water changes, for things like this and stray leaves that also throw the whole thing into a flux. =)


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## inf (Oct 26, 2016)

*I agree with the pathogen idea*

I want to say that I took out a java fern less than a week ago to put in another tank and yesterday my tiger barb died. Was eating as usual the day before and then dead the next day. There must be pathogens in the substrate.


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