# Newbie starting a low tech/budget 29g learning thread



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Sounds like a good start!

What light do you have over this tank?

Java fern and Anubias would be some other good plants to look for. Also, the Swap n Shop here on the forum is usually the best place to look for plants. roud:

Are you going to do a fishless cycle on the tank before adding fish?


----------



## Clare12345 (Dec 20, 2008)

If I were you I'd turkey baste that mulm right into the filter. Or just take some filter media from your 5 gallon and switch it over to your new one, to lessen the effects of the ammonia cycle. 
Also, be careful not to use any scrubber that could possibly have any soap that comes on it or that has been used with soap before. One from a LFS might be best, because that way you are guarranteed not to introduce soap into your tank. That would kill anything ahead of time.


----------



## rhstranger (Mar 4, 2010)

Light on the tank is the stock 17w T8. 
I'm actually going to slowly build up on a silent cycle. (minus a soil substrate, its just brown gravel/river stone). I don't plan on adding fish anytime soon. Definitely not doing a fishfood fishless cycle, like i did on the 5g. Took 3.5 months...lol.
I did a no-no already though. I was picking up the AC50, and was looking around for low light plants, my son was acting up, so basically just said to the LFS guy to grab a couple low light plants for me, and he mentioned the names, but trying to hold onto my son, missed the names. So here I am with a tank and some plants that I have no idea what they are (except the Java moss, I recognize that haha.) Anyone have a clue?





















I'm getting a bad feeling that they aren't low light, as I've looked at the recommended list, and can't find pics that look similar....might have got taken for a ride.

The Good news. There was an Albino BN Pleco hidden in with the moss. Didn't even know til I had the bag floating as I readied the tank and heard a rustling noise....he's acclimated and in the 5g now. Gotta keep an eye on him and the betta.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I think you've got emersed-grown plants, so be prepared for them to melt, but new growth should take the place of the old.

Looks like a Hygrophila sp on the left and Bacopa (monieri?) on the right.


----------



## rhstranger (Mar 4, 2010)

By picture comparison on this site, I think you're right on the Bacopa. I'm starting to think by reading up here, I maybe should be upgrading my lighting a bit. And maybe some root tabs...


----------



## Dr. Acula (Oct 14, 2009)

I would definitely try and upgrade the lighting. 17W of t8 over a 30g just isn't a whole lot. I'd go at least double that, or pick up a t5 NO fixture. You would probably only need a single bulb of that to go low tech. Also, root tabs certainly couldn't hurt.

But welcome to TPT. Good luck!


----------



## Tuiflies (Jan 14, 2010)

Welcome...

Ditto on the light upgrade.

Also, if you're planning on adding some more plants I'd keep that Bacopa grouped together. There's lots of other options plant wise to add to your setup and they generally look better grouped together. Check out some of the other aquascapes on this site to get an idea of what plants look nice together.

If you're thinking of adding shrimp, there's a guy on Aquabid (http://www.aquabid.com/) that sells Red Cherry shrimp (under inverts) 100 for $25 (he only ships to Canada, sorry Yanks). Amazing deal! Nice critters. I keep mine in with Mollies, Guppies and Neons.

Good luck with staying low tech. I tried but found that DIY light upgrades, a little DIY CO2 and some PMDD make such a difference (for the cost) that I can't stop. (I'm still low light though 56W of spiral CF over my 29g.)


----------



## rhstranger (Mar 4, 2010)

Home Despot seems to have a double strip 24inch t5 ( 2 x 14wts) for $37. Do you think I could cram that in the stock 29g housing? I'm sorta on a pretty stringent budget on this one, and that would be 1/2 the cost of a Coralife 30" fixture.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

rhstranger said:


> Home Despot seems to have a double strip 24inch t5 ( 2 x 14wts) for $37. Do you think I could cram that in the stock 29g housing? I'm sorta on a pretty stringent budget on this one, and that would be 1/2 the cost of a Coralife 30" fixture.


I can't say whether or not you'll have the room to gut and retrofit your current fixture, but that would be a better light level for the tank, and give you some more options as far as plants to try.

Only thing is you'll want to stagger 24" bulbs inside the hood if possible, for better light coverage so that the ends of the tank aren't dark.


----------



## rhstranger (Mar 4, 2010)

Agh. I'll probably just grab the coralife 30" T5 2 x 18watter then. Saves me the hassle and probable failure of modding the stock hood. My electrical skills are.....moderate at best.
Thanks for the tip on the CRS Tuiflies. I was interested in getting some once the tank settles in a bit, and my local LFS charges quite a bit for his CRS. That is a pretty smokin' deal. I'll try finding him on Aquabid. Cheers. 
Oh, and the freebie fish wasn't a pleco. It was an albino cory. I dunno what I was thinking. Probably will get a few more once the 29 is ready for fish. He seems pretty content in the 5 so far.


----------



## rhstranger (Mar 4, 2010)

Okee Dokee.....I ordered the Coralife fixture, and moved the javafern-on-driftwood from the 5 to the 29.
It looks so small in this tank. lol. Will get a pic up tonight.
Got some mulm in there from the 5g too. Also, was browsing the plant profiles again and think the other plant is Hygrophila corymbosa 'Siamensis'. More green than red, and wider leaves than the pics I can see of sp. Does that sound right, lauraleellbp?
Thank you guys & gals for the replies. I really love the posts and info on this site. 
I will continue to update as I trudge along....


----------



## webgirl74 (Dec 2, 2009)

I'm guessing the Coralife fixture has built in reflectors as well, which will help you out with getting the most out of your fixture. Good score on the BN pleco. That fish will be perfect for your tank and doesn't grown stupid-big like a standard pleco. With a newly started tank though, you will have to supplement his diet with algae wafers or something similar.


----------



## rhstranger (Mar 4, 2010)

Well the Coralife fixture came in and is on the aquarium. its about 1/4 inch too big to fit in the lip of the aquarium hood, but close. Looks good though. Very decieving. I put it on and thought "wow, not that much brighter or intense than the stock." Then I lifted the light to look at it and boom, it lit the entire down stairs like I was harnessing the sun. lol. Halides must be scary bright....







Got a couple more plants the other day too. A sword with 3 offshoots, and some Hygro Angustifolia (It said low-hi light?). Also brought the driftwood/java fern over from the 5g. I'm thinking root tabs might be a necessity, since I'm just using gravel, no laterite or ada or similar. Or would dosing a little flourish every now and then suffice? I've never fertilized before, and am looking for the easiest, least complex (this is supposed to be a low tech set up, lol) method.
The low budget part is already out the window, as the light was as much as the tank(s) and all the goodies...and some of the plants.
Ah well, its all fun. Here's a couple pics. 
The Hygro Angust, I think.







..and my Java, which isn't the healthiest, but hopefully the new light will remedy it.








whadjya think so far? tips/suggestions definitely more than welcome.


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Glad you went with the Coralife. It is the best in the long run and cheaper in the long run. I found that out the hard expensive way.

The Hygro on the far left looks like Hygro temple to me.

aquaticmajic has some nice Java Fern on EBay. I got 1 plant that was the size of 2 for $3, shipping free. Check out the windelov version. Just don't buy when it is very hot or cold. Also 1 plant that can take over your tank with low light is Hornwort. I have found it at Pet Smart. 

I think some sags would be a nice addition. Also lying the wood down would look better.

Here is a link to some low-light tanks.

I think you need some Potassium nitrate. Looks like Black brush algae starting on the java fern. I found it at Lowe's sold as Spectricide stump remover. It has to be diluted 1 Tbs to 1 cup of tank water. Then dose 2ml daily for a week, with baby item. Then dose weekly. Also you will need Seachem Excel, carbon replacement, 2ml weekly. 

Dry ferts here, shipping $6. Here shipping higher but have Excel. It can also be found on Ebay.


----------



## rhstranger (Mar 4, 2010)

I think you hit the nail on the head, Hilde. Looks like BBA. Uh-oh. Seems the shell of my apple snail in my 5g has some sprouting as well. Awesome. I guess I'm on the hunt for some salt peter or stump remover and if i can find one, a real SAE.
Heading out to another LFS today maybe. Looking for some Excel and some root tabs for the swords. I have been disappointed with the last to LFS I've been to, time to try another i guess. 
I don't think I'm going to attempt the dry fert run. Maybe Flourish if I dose anything. I want(have) to keep this low-tech, as I don't have the time/budget to keep up with a high maintenance tank.
The good news. New growth on majority of plants. Very little melting so far. Fingers crossed.
One question though. If I trim away alot of the Java fern leaves that are infected with the BBA, will it grow back out, or should I just scrap it and start over?


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

rhstranger said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head, Hilde. Looks like BBA.
> 
> I don't think I'm going to attempt the dry fert run. I want(have) to keep this low-tech
> 
> If I trim away alot of the Java fern leaves that are infected with the BBA, will it grow back out


Great!! It is so rare that I find someone, like my self, that wants to stay low tech. If you get API tabs (Iron sulfate, Nitrogen, Potassium carb, Potassium sulfate) Florish would be a good addition. If you get Seachem tabs (Calcium, iron, manganese, magnesium, potassium, biotin, cobalmine) Nitrogen would be a good addition. If you can't find ferts locally try Ebay. 

For the Java Fern you can take them out and soak the in a solcution of Excel for 2 min. Water 1cup to Excel 5ml or 1 cap. When they get old the leaves turn brown. Take the bad leaves off and they grow back. It is the only plant I didn't kill with a bleach dip. As long as there are 2 leaves left it should grow back.

I used to have chronic problems with BBA(black brush algae) until I dosed with the KNO3(potas. nitrate). My tap ph is 8.4 and gh or kh unreadable. Do you have similar readings?


----------



## rhstranger (Mar 4, 2010)

Thanks for the tips, Hilde!
If I get the Excel today, I will definitely try the dip. There are a few newer leaves with no BBA on it, so hopefully I can resurrect the plant.
My PH is 8.2, GH is off the charts as well. Is high PH/GH a trigger for BBA as well?
The circulation in the 5g is pretty poor (where the BBA is), where the 29g is quite high. Would the poor circulation also add the the growth? I'd probably have to replace the builtin filter (eclipse hex5) to increase the current. 
Thanks again for the help.


----------



## Beeps (Jan 5, 2010)

I had some bba and went to the pharmacy bought a syringe and squirted excel right on the tufts and it all died .


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

rhstranger said:


> My PH is 8.2, GH is off the charts as well. Is high PH/GH a trigger for BBA as well?
> The circulation in the 5g is pretty poor (where the BBA). Would the poor circulation also add the the growth?


No one is certain why algae grows in 1 tank and not another. Contributing factors are:
Poor circulation
Light imbalance with Co2(always in tanks)
Fert imbalance.

Basicly when the plants are not growing at their optimum algae starts flourishing. Reminds me of crab grass in Florida.

My favorite filter is a powerhead with a prefilter by ZooMed.

Also the less water agitation at the top the less Excel necessary. That is another reason I like the powerhead.

A syringe to squirt Excel can be found in Wal-mart, medicine area, baby items.

Googling for new fert regiment, for have some bright colored plants, found Brightwell Nitrogen(contains some carbon) for $5 and Excel for $6 at thatpetplace Also have API tabs for $7. Also shipping is only $6.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I consider algae "par for the course" in all new tank setups. I usually have it for the first month or two in my tanks, but between stocking plenty of algae eaters and a little Excel dosing if the algae seems to start getting the upper hand over the plants, things usually stabilize fairly quickly. I only ever needed to dose Excel once on my 29gal, that and some Nerite snails and now there's no algae in sight. :thumbsup:

Sometimes you need to play with the photoperiod a bit to get that dialed in, too.


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Great point lauraleellbp!! For not all algae is harmful. Also I saw a tank that had mineralized substrate with a green cloud of algae. It ran its course and no plants were affected.

I was thinking of when I had BBA take over my tank.


----------



## rhstranger (Mar 4, 2010)

BBA is such an ugly algae though. lol!
At least on the plants. On my snail, it is starting to look like he's growing a mohawk.
Well, we went out yesterday, and tried a Petcrazy, which had no Seachem products except the tabs, which they wanted $25 for the 10 pack. That seemed reaaally expensive. They also had nothing that even remotely looked like an SAE. And they had no snails. No Nerite, apple or "mystery", MTS, nothing.
I asked the employee who approached me if they carried Flourish, and the look of complete unknowing he gave me told me all I needed to know.
I know my local guy will probably have it, so I might make a pit stop today.
I've been reading on the Hydrogen Peroxide dip/spraying. Would that be ok to try if I can't find some Excel in my area? I could pull the driftwood and Java out and try spraying it down with the H2O2. Is there a dilution percent I should use?
Lauraleelbp - i think I'm going to cut down the light period on the 5g by 1-2 hours just to see if it helps. Thanks.


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

I would cut the lights down to 4hrs for a week.

I had read that someone doses with Hydroperoxide. Lost the flash drive that had the notes. Use to have info about product similar to Excel that is made by Johnson & Johnson used to sterilize equipment. No safe dosage level for snails and shrimps. thekrib


I don't understand why you don't call the store before you go with gas prices as they are.

If you can't find fert tabs, organic charcoal would be a good replacement. I found it a ACE hardware store, cost $10. I soaked it over night and then crushed it by wrapping it in window plastic and hitting it with a hammer. You have to push the pieces deep in the substrate or they will float.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

You can dose H2O2 directly into the tank, or spot-treat the plants directly in the tank. Don't exceed 2mL per gallon, and do a big water change immedately afterwards.

You might consider mail ordering Nerites, I get mine from www.InvertzFactory.com and from Zid Zulander here in the S&S.


----------



## rhstranger (Mar 4, 2010)

I actually pulled the plant-on-driftwood out of the tank and sprayed it with the H2O2. Ummmm.....i heard it sizzling.....uhhh....errrr....30 sec later, rinsed well and back in. :eek5:
I guess we'll see what happens over the next couple of days...at least Java fern is plenty available around here. Live and learn...
I don't really mind the algae. I just don't want it to get out of control crazy. I plan on getting quite a few inverts for this tank, snails, shrimp, some otos and/or SAE (whatever I can find first). I'm aiming for an"Au Natural" feel to it. Pretty Aquascaping is low on the importance and with my artistic ability, probably unobtainable.lol.
One LFS had Nerites that I might pickup if there's some left. I'd like to get a variety of snails. Nerite, apple, ramshorn. He's expensive, but like Hilde said with the price of gas, to get to a 'great selection' store, it's 45 min away. I'd love to mail order some cool stuff. A lot isn't available to order up here in the Great White North.


----------



## rhstranger (Mar 4, 2010)

Aight. couple days later, the BBA turned reddish. I'm guessing dead as I have bought a few inhabitants for the tank, and as you can see, they seem to be all over the fern.






.
A couple apple snails (he didn't have any nerites left) have been mauling the fern for the majority of the day. Still some algae, but alot has been eaten up.
Got a couple of (of course) what I thought were SAE. False. Literally. Second one, I'm not sure. Weird thing is, his or her stripe disappears when the lights are off. Comes back in 5 min of lights on...bizarre. Anyone have any ideas? No yellow/gold in the fins at all, more silvery body. fast. That was the best picture out of about 20.















And of course, the FTS for growth comparison.








Also got some Seachem Root tabs going on. $6 cheaper at the local LFS. I was surprised. Plopped a couple in between the swords and at the back with Hygro Angust. Should I add some for the moneywort too? I didn't get Flourish, as the plants seem to be doing alright so far. I will get some to dose sporadically in the next payperiod. Gotta pace myself here.lol.


----------



## Tuiflies (Jan 14, 2010)

Looking good RHSTRANGER.

Another online store I use is Mail Order Pet Supplies http://mops.ca/ Another Canadian retailer with pretty good prices. (Seachem Flourish Tabs 10pk $8.17 + shipping)

Also, this is the best comparison between the algae eaters that I've seen. http://www.thekrib.com/Fish/Algae-Eaters/ The one in the first pic looks like a False SAE according to the article. Can't tell what the one in the second pic is.


----------



## rhstranger (Mar 4, 2010)

Thanks for the SAE info Tuiflies. That is a good link. Looks like, by the info, the silver one is also a false SAE, just missing the yellowy pigment i think. The two do look similar in form, activity, and the stripe disapppearing from fear. 
And thanks for the mops.ca link. I hadn't been there. And it's great to have more options for ordering, especially up here.
The tabs are another $5 cheaper! Wow. Definitely be using that place. 
Just did water check. Everything A-O-K except Nitrates a little high. Time for a WC......


----------



## rhstranger (Mar 4, 2010)

Sorry, long time no update. Had flu that knocked me down to bedrest for 4 days, my kid then got the same, and for the last two weeks have been battling ich in the 29g and cyanobacteria in the 5g. Have done a few things since last update. Added Hornwort, some driftwood that I glued some java moss to, a C. Undulata, moved the freebie cory down to the 29g, gave him a couple buddies to play with, and 3 sunset wag platies. I had 2 funky coloured female platies I had gotten later, but both were what brought the ich in, and both died. Never going back to that store. 
Just waiting for the brown algae to die down. Any suggestions to speed that process up? Maybe some otos? Those false SAE are friggin' useless. The only thing they are good for is stressing everyone else out in the tank. Hyper spazzy Pigs.


----------



## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

Plant growth looks great! I would consider getting rid of the false SAEs and getting just 4-5 ottos, they take care of algae pretty quickly. Another thing to note is that some algae the algae eaters have a harder time consuming especially like on that rock where the algae has made its way into tiny holes. I don't know if this still applies with planted tanks because I haven't crossed this bridge in planted tanks, but when i used to keep cichlids in hardwater/ rock tanks I used to get what looks like your brown algae when I over fed my fish alot. Don't know if this rule still applies though. Sorry I can't give better advice, but definately consider getting some ottos and getting rid of the false SAE. Ottos are a much more peaceful fish and get along better with all of the other tank mates.
Good luck with everything,
Your pal,


----------



## rhstranger (Mar 4, 2010)

Thanks, pianofish. I was thinking the same about the SAE's. Hopefully my LFS i got them from will take them back.
The rock definitely has its nooks and cranny's. Probably have to take the toothbrush to it shortly. I can't believe how spazzy those false SAE's are. Gluttons, too. Just eat everything. It's hard to get the food down to the cories without them sucking it all up before it hits the bottom of the tank. lol.


----------



## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

Have you considered tieing some moss to the rock? Me thinks it would look pretty groovy. 
Good luck with your project,
And happy planting!
Your pal,


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

rhstranger said:


> The rock definitely has its nooks and cranny's. Probably have to take the toothbrush to it shortly.


It would probably be best to spray it with diluted hydro peroxide or excell.


----------



## rhstranger (Mar 4, 2010)

I do have a good wad of Java Moss, I could strap that to the rock....hmmmmm..... or, I don't have any Anubias in the tank yet.:hihi:

Another use for the peroxide! Thanks Hilde! PS, the BBA hasn't come back to the 5g. I did lose my Apple snail with the mohawk of BBA though....the 5g now has a AC 20 on it as well. Waaay better circulation than the stock filter. The cyanobacteria is gone down quite a bit as well. Knocked the lighting on the 5g down to 5 hrs from 8 as well.


----------



## evilputty (Feb 8, 2010)

i found the cheapest place for me to get excel is off amazon.

16.9 oz = 500 mL


http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=flourish+excel&x=0&y=0


----------



## rhstranger (Mar 4, 2010)

Wow. That is a good price....if you live in the States. lol
Shipping to Canada was $17. We always get screwed on shipping.

More bad luck....went down last night for evening feeds and temp on 29g was at 68. Heater was dead. Ran out and grabbed an aquaclear 150w. Paid way too much, but went to 3 other stores, and all they had were the Elite non-submersibles, which I do not trust. Hopefully no one got too stressed.
Temp up this morn to 71. Hopefully get it up a little more today.


----------



## rhstranger (Mar 4, 2010)

Update: no one perished in the temp drop, plants doing fine, Apple snails have laid their first clutch, Hornwort slowly (actually rapidly) taking over tank. Pics to follow tonight...


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

rhstranger said:


> Wow. That is a good price....if you live in the States. lol
> Shipping to Canada was $17. We always get screwed on shipping.


Perhaps others, whom post here, that live in Canada could help you find places that don't charge so much for shipping. Just do the member search then click on the advanced search. You can type in the area there.


----------



## Tuiflies (Jan 14, 2010)

Mail Order Pet Supplies for Excel (500ml for $9.33 or 2L for $34.71 + $6.95 s/h for either)

http://www.aquariumsupplies.ca/plant-fertilizers-c-1_172.html


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

rhstranger said:


> I can't believe how spazzy those false SAE's are. Gluttons, too. Just eat everything. It's hard to get the food down to the cories without them sucking it all up before it hits the bottom of the tank. lol.


I read somewhere that someone, whom had a similar problem, used a tube to get food to the bottom for the cory's.


----------



## rhstranger (Mar 4, 2010)

I've actually got a technique down, where I distract the false SAE's with flake on the surface, then chuck some algae wafers down to the cories. By the time the SAE's are getting full and figure out there's some wafers down below to attack, the filters are pushing a little flake down to the gravel, where the cories can nibble away. 
Thanks again, Tuiflies. I keep forgetting about MOPS.








I just got rid of a bunch of the hornwort that was in this pic. It was starting to choke out the light for the other plants.
Oh, and the first apple snail clutch I've had...


----------



## rhstranger (Mar 4, 2010)

uhhh....just went downstairs to check on everyone, and ole Yeller is laying 
another clutch....
I could be in trouble here..:icon_lol:


----------



## rhstranger (Mar 4, 2010)

Wow, has it been 4 months?!?!?!
Where did that time go?
Thought I'd update while I'm ahead....








I know. Needs a good trimming and clean up....lol.
Let's see here, I let a couple of apple snail clutches hatch, and most of them, well, disappeared. I put a few in the couple of 5g I have, and 3 are in the 29. The weird thing was, after the two clutches hatched, the 3 adult snails up and died on me. Dunno if I had some bad water, or what. Parameters were all good. I try to stay on top of that. 








Had a couple platy births. Not many survived, which is probably for the best. 
I think Falsey (the big non-SAE) has been hunting them down. He still ticks me off, but keeps the population in check. I found another single platy fry the other day, which is in the net. (3rd birth?)








Stop looking at me like that, Falsey.

I did scoop up some Endlers Livebearers, which I've never seen 'round these parts, and I hope they breed, as the java moss has really grown in nice, and should provide some good cover, at least until I can get them into a fry tank.








They're hard to get a good pic of. Fast. I really like them alot.
Oh, and the wife wanted her own betta, so I scored another 5g hex and she now has Razz, a really nice looking CT. 








That's about it for now. Just hoping for some baby Endlers, and enjoying the tanks.


----------

