# Sumps are bad for CO2? MYTH!!!!



## Vonzorfox (Nov 22, 2007)

Thanks for sharing the videos, I may look into this sometime. I'm a plumber myself so I like building things like this.


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## jcardona1 (Jun 27, 2008)

Thanks, glad it was helpful


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

That is awesome! How hard is it to drill the holes? Parts list? What are you using for the sump?


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## jcardona1 (Jun 27, 2008)

Gatekeeper said:


> That is awesome! How hard is it to drill the holes? Parts list? What are you using for the sump?


Thanks! Drilling the hole isn't bad at all. The hardest part is getting over the fear. I practiced on an old 20g first. Once I did the first one, I saw how easy it was. To drill the hole all you need is a diamond bit and running water to keep the bit cool. I got the bit on ebay for about $15 shipped. 

The parts list for the Beananimal can be seen here: http://www.beananimal.com/projects/silent-and-fail-safe-aquarium-overflow-system.aspx

For my sump, I use an old glass tank. I don't have pics of this current setup, but on my 57g it looks like this. Filter sock, ceramic media, and pump. That's it, easiest and cheapest sump to build!


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## astrosag (Sep 3, 2010)

I have a question...with sumps, do you rely mainly on powerheads to get flow in your tank to move nutrients, CO2, etc. throughout your tank?

What are the benefits of the sump? Does using a sumping tank allow debri to filter on its own through gravity?


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## jcardona1 (Jun 27, 2008)

astrosag said:


> I have a question...with sumps, do you rely mainly on powerheads to get flow in your tank to move nutrients, CO2, etc. throughout your tank?
> 
> What are the benefits of the sump? Does using a sumping tank allow debri to filter on its own through gravity?


No, powerheads aren't really needed. With a properly-sized pump and returns placed in the right places, that will give you all the flow you need. Here's my list of benefits:
- Much more room for bio media.
- Can use filter socks, which are the *best* mechanical filtration you can get (socks available down to 1 micron sizes).
- Overflows keep the tank's water level always the same! No topping off, just add water to the sump as needed.
- Very easy to set up auto water changers or 24/7 drip systems because of the overflows.
- Remove equipment from tank and place in sump (heaters)
- Added water volume.
- More flexible in terms of flow rates, just buy the pump that suits your needs. Easier to add multiple returns, with valves on each to adjust flow.
- Easier to clean and maintain, no lugging around heavy canister filters. Bio media doesn't need rinsing because of good pre-filtering. When socks clog, I toss them in the washing machine and they come out good as new. I buy several to have extras on hand.
- Very nice for dry dosing. I add ferts right at the pumps inlet, chops up real nice and spreads the powder via my returns 
​


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Wow, you make it sound so easy. LOL. I have never had a sump and always debating going for it.

Where do you inject CO2? Would love a picture of your current sump....


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## jcardona1 (Jun 27, 2008)

It really is that easy! On my 57g I used a regular PVC reactor. The pump would feed directly to the reactor, just like if you were using a canister. 

This is a pic before I got the co2 running


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## astrosag (Sep 3, 2010)

That's pretty awesome J. 

Sounds like this is a great method. However, I have to say that it doesn't look to be cost effective for small tanks and tanks that you tend to move around and such.

Canisters seem easier for my 20g than a sump, even though the sump is probably the better route, especially for the long run.

Thanks for sharing your sump! I'm learning and liking the idea.


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## jcardona1 (Jun 27, 2008)

No problem! Yeah for something like a 20-30g, a sump probably wouldn't make much sense, although it would be a very cool feature. Once you get in to the 40-50g+ range, definitely! This is on my 57g, and I couldn't imagine having it any other way


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## Jeff.:P:. (Sep 8, 2009)

Very Nice and clean! one question, how will you prevent fish, and snails going into the overflow?


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## jcardona1 (Jun 27, 2008)

Jeff.:P:. said:


> Very Nice and clean! one question, how will you prevent fish, and snails going into the overflow?


Thanks. It may happen, which is why I added the intake strainers. A normal overflow box has teeth to prevent this. But since I made mine out of glass, I can't add the teeth. So I opted for strainers. Several ways to do this if you're building your own overflow box. Use acrylic and cut the teeth yourself, or stick with glass but add a 'grate' at the lip. Or, intake strainers.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jcardona1 said:


> 2. Get rid of the "wet/dry" portion of your sump. Sure you can try and seal it, but that's a pain for maintenance. Why not use submerged ceramic media? More surface area than crummy bio balls or pot scrubbies, no messy drip trays, baffles, dividers, and no water dripping.


It's no pain to seal it, takes me 3-5 min with some tape.
Anytime I want to get inside, I simply remove the tape and then reseal/retape afterward.

Simple as pie.

The real issue is how often do I even need to get inside the drip tray area?
I do not use a filter floss there, it'll clog and is hard to remove easily, so I just use a foam block downstream in the open part of the sump.
The prefilter sponge is what catches most of the shrimp and larger particles.
The inlet screen for the overflow prevents real large stuff.
So the drip plate is not an access issue, even years later.

This is not an issue in other words.

I've done the sock thing and tried a few catch basins to recapture CO2.
I did not like the burpy and the CO2 loss with a standard over flow built in or the prefilter add ons, *this might be greatly reduced with the prefilter over design you have however.*
Still, lots more work for the same end result. Selling folks on doing the above is not going to be as easy as simply taping a wet/dry section up.


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## jcardona1 (Jun 27, 2008)

plantbrain said:


> Selling folks on doing the above is not going to be as easy as simply taping a wet/dry section up.


I say it is. 

If you don't have a sump, that means you need to buy an expensive commercially made unit, or build one yourself. If you go the DIY route, it's a lot more work in making the dividers, baffles, and drip trays. Why go through the hassle, or bigger expense? 

Doing it the way I suggested simply involves finding an old tank and dropping it a basket or laundry bag full of ceramic rings. What could be cheaper and easier than that? As far as the wet/dry portion, why? I'm all about ease of setup, efficiency and low cost. If you can use highly porous ceramic media which has 170x the surface area of bio balls (source: Seachem Matrix specs), why wouldn't you do it? Water does not have to be constantly dripping over the bio media in order to grow beneficial bacteria, which is why ceramic media in sumps works so well. 

As far as the overflows go, did you watch my video?  There is no burping or gurgling. I use the Herbie method on my 57g with 10g sump. Excess co2 loss is not an issue in this tank. 

I know you like the CPR overflows and Aqualifter pump. I've used this setup before and I hated it. Very unreliable. The old school u-tube overflows work better, even the DIY PVC version. The CPRs look fancy, but that's about it. The weak link in the system is the Aqualifter. They clog easily, and the diaphragms can go out in the middle of the night. Happened to me. Luckily I caught before my tank started to overflow onto the carpet. No thanks! I'll stick to drilled tanks from now on.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Jeff.:P:. said:


> Very Nice and clean! one question, how will you prevent fish, and snails going into the overflow?





jcardona1 said:


> Thanks. It may happen, which is why I added the intake strainers. A normal overflow box has teeth to prevent this. But since I made mine out of glass, I can't add the teeth. So I opted for strainers. Several ways to do this if you're building your own overflow box. Use acrylic and cut the teeth yourself, or stick with glass but add a 'grate' at the lip. Or, intake strainers.


I'll throw in a comment here. I have a weir tank with slotted overflows. Also added screen covers. Baby pleco's, otto's, neons, zebra danios all found they're way to the sump taking a ride down the pipes (not often but several times). I just net the buggers and return them to the display.

I used "gutter guard" mesh to make weir protectors. I made an effort but testing showed anything smaller became blocked too easily. Since 7/20/2009 only one fish has died as a result of the sump ride that I'm aware of. I really like the system I produced DIY from a salty trickle filter. It put an end to buying canisters for any of my tanks over 55g.


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## West1 (Feb 28, 2011)

Good stuff J! I'm s huge huge fan of Sumps and I'm liking what I see/read


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## jcardona1 (Jun 27, 2008)

West1 said:


> Good stuff J! I'm s huge huge fan of Sumps and I'm liking what I see/read


Me too! I can't imagine running a tank w/o a sump


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jcardona1 said:


> I say it is.
> If you don't have a sump, that means you need to buy an expensive commercially made unit, or build one yourself. If you go the DIY route, it's a lot more work in making the dividers, baffles, and drip trays. Why go through the hassle, or bigger expense?


Well, if it's DIY.......all you do is buy the tower or DIY that, then the sump itself does not cost much, a glass old tank will work, Rubber maid etc.
One guy used some old 12" PVC about 18" long and added a cap and make a plate to go inside. Others have made a simple 5 sided box, add egg crate on the bottom. I suppose there's a dozen other ways to make a tower that catches any degassed spill over. The effort/cost to make a tower vs this not much different. 



> Doing it the way I suggested simply involves finding an old tank and dropping it a basket or laundry bag full of ceramic rings. What could be cheaper and easier than that?


DIY.........I can easily add that to the argument if you wish, same applies to the method I suggested, use an old tank etc. DIY a tower or buy one pre made for 1/3 rd the cost of a complete wet/dry.



> As far as the wet/dry portion, why? I'm all about ease of setup, efficiency and low cost.


Cause it's easy? 
Does not cost much?
And as efficient as any.



> If you can use highly porous ceramic media which has 170x the surface area of bio balls (source: Seachem Matrix specs), why wouldn't you do it?


I dunno, cause 3/8" lava rock at Cascade Rock cost 3$ for 100$?
The purpose for the bioballs is that they do not foul and clog, but facilitate gas exchange, not really to maximize bacterial colonies. They can be added if desired though. 



> Water does not have to be constantly dripping over the bio media in order to grow beneficial bacteria, which is why ceramic media in sumps works so well.


I typically place them on the bottom, and leave the bioballs in the upper section, no big difference though.



> As far as the overflows go, did you watch my video?  There is no burping or gurgling. I use the Herbie method on my 57g with 10g sump. Excess co2 loss is not an issue in this tank.


I've seen herbies on reef tanks recently, the noise factor is good.
This is the best argument for them.:thumbsup:



> I know you like the CPR overflows and Aqualifter pump. I've used this setup before and I hated it. Very unreliable. The old school u-tube overflows work better, even the DIY PVC version.


I have not found them to be unreliable, but compared to old style U tubes, they are comparatively. My thing is more not having a big old ugly box in my tank and something I can move/remove easily.

The herbie is a better design, but cannot be moved, is large etc and an eyesore to me for my goal there with the prefilter. I'm willing to accept those trade offs. The wet/dry section however is a different matter, these are two different things. The herbie helps the sump reduce losses, but a wet/dry does regardless of the prefilter.



> The CPRs look fancy, but that's about it. The weak link in the system is the Aqualifter. They clog easily, and the diaphragms can go out in the middle of the night. Happened to me. Luckily I caught before my tank started to overflow onto the carpet. No thanks! I'll stick to drilled tanks from now on.


I agree that is the weak link. I clean the air intake every so often just in case. My beef with it is really having the ugly little pump up there and another darn thing to plug in. If you keep them cleaned out good, they last, if not.......well......

The only built in prefilter I like are external tank prefilters, many places will not make those. Then adding a herbie to that, would be ideal. I'm not big on the whole sock filter thing, plant tanks often clog them fast and I prefer sponge. I had a post canister pleated Ocean Clear on a tank for a couple of years, left it out for added mechanical filtration, not really needed for my set ups. I guess for a temp polish or something. Then the bag sock filters are decent. 1-5-10 micron do not last long though. I do think the herbie is good if you go with bag type sump filters though.

I have one planned for a client and will use a similar design as the herbie. But the overflow issues are redundant so nothing could overflow in either location(sump or tank). Or run dry for that matter. 

I think the point here is that wet/dry towers are fine if they are sealed, this is not hard to do or service. Herbies are excellent and I would argue preferred for sump only/sock filters. CPR's look nice, can be moved around easily etc, but suck in other ways. No perfect filter really. Still, the degas CO2 issues can be resolved a couple of ways given the design and filtration goals.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jcardona1 said:


> Me too! I can't imagine running a tank w/o a sump


I may even remove the canister on my 60p ADA tank and switch to the smaller wet/dry I have on a 60 Gal cube once I switch a few things around.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Here is a simple DIY Wet/dry:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/130787-diy-hob-overflow-sump-filter-who.html 

Bucket +lid is 2-5$.
Old tank, often free.
So how is this more $ or harder?


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## jcardona1 (Jun 27, 2008)

plantbrain said:


> Here is a simple DIY Wet/dry:
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/130787-diy-hob-overflow-sump-filter-who.html
> 
> ...


Not my way of doing things, but if it works, it works. I don't like cutting corners  The obvious problem with a wet/dry in terms of co2 is the drip tower. I say, get rid of the damn thing! It's only needed if you're using a certain type of media (bio balls or pot scrubbies). Change the media, change the design, solve the problem! The trickle tower isn't the only way to have decent gas exchange, i.e., strong surface current.

And lava rock and ceramic media are not even comparable, it is always advised to not use lava rock as bio media. Lava rock has an extremely poor surface area. It's basically like throwing plain cobble stones in your sump. 

As for filter socks, I disagree on that again. My 57g with 10g sump had two 4x8" 25 micron filter socks. I could easily go a week in between changes. That's not bad at all. Once they clog, throw them in the washer and they come out good as new.


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

Thanks for this post, Jose. It answers a lot of questions for me.

I'm giving some consideration to going down this route in the future. 

However, I do like to do weekly 50% water changes. I'd like to hard plumb the tank (to both a water intake and drain) in order to make life easier. It doesn't look a 50% water change would be feasible with this setup unless I were to drill another hole in the back of the tank (about half way up the back).


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