# Fertz dosing without weekly water change?



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Just dial things back and use less light, EI is flexible. I change the water once a month here:

Note, I did not write the EI article here.
I make it clear that it is merely an example and a good one for maintaining proper care.........ADA also suggest a similar water change frequently independent of EI and most folks that have nicer tanks tend to take frequent care of them and keep them clean.

That said, there are examples where folks try to avoid them with bad results, as well as good results.

Non CO2 methods are simply put; the ultimate in low work and virtually no water changes, the trade off is fewer plants species can be kept together and slow growth.

If you use the low light + CO2, + sediment based ferts, then you can extend water changes to 1 month at say 50%.










I dose about 1/2 EI to this tank.

You can simply dose less a little bit each week till you note a negative response, then return the last prior dosing. The plants should tell you what that rate is fairly well specific to your aquarium.

If you are neglectful or hate water changes, go for the emergent growth or non CO2 methods.


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## Aqua07 (Jul 9, 2012)

Wow! Fabulous tank set up Tom!! 

So you dose 1/2 the otherwise normal EI dose per day?


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

You would need to figure out what works for your situation. 
For Tom, those levels of dosing work with the way he has that tank set up. 

For me, I also altered the ratios among the Macros. That is what worked for me. 

There is not any one way that is right. EI is one way that works, and is a good starting point. I started with those dosing rates, and quickly dialed it down.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

I'm using medium lights with at least 1/3 of the surface covered with floaters. Very little co2 24/7 and 1/6 PPSpro daily dosing.

I measure TDS to know when to do a water change. 200 TDS is when I'm supposed to do a water change.

I have not performed a water change since I set up the tank six months ago. I had to change like 10% twice because of filter maintenance (needed tank water to rinse media) and when I dosed "no planaria".










It's not a spectacular tank, but it's a very healthy planted shrimp tank. I have CRS, CBS, OEBTs and blue velvets.

See more details here: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=183530

As stated above in previous post is all about dialing it up be watching the tank. There is some measuring to get it close but it's mainly looking at the plant/algae growth. And all dictated by light.

For some reason, I find more difficult to do it in my low light non co2 tank. It seems that the metabolism is too slow to keep up with the build up of TDS. I just need a bit more practice and the tank is also 5-6 times smaller.










I have to change 1 gallon of water every week or two or TDS go up into the sky.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Diana said:


> There is not any one way that is right. EI is one way that works, and is a good starting point. I started with those dosing rates, and quickly dialed it down.


:hihi:roud:


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

The unique thing about EI dosing, using the tables for standard dosages, is that you will not be short on any nutrient, and you won't get damaging overdoses if you also do the 50% weekly water changes. That lets you concentrate on other things, not on nutrient deficiencies, such as getting the CO2 system set up so it works for you. I don't think there is another way to dose that offers that particular benefit. And, when EI was started, as a unique dosing method, that particular benefit was of high value. For some of us it still is, for others it isn't.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Yeah. I think every new hobbyist should start with EI and 50% WC to be able to figure light/co2.

It's a sure shot!


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Double post


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Any dosing method can use water changes and dose more to accommodate and in fact, every method does do this. This is not specific to EI, but I promoted it as a method for management, which bothered many since I showed you never needed to test the water etc via math and serial dilution.

If you look pejerrey's tank, that would take about 5 minutes to change 50% of the water, and the plants would get a nice trim and good frequent care.

No dosing method will make up for good frequent care.
ADA suggest the same type of thing, but the bulk of the nutrients are in the sediment.

I suggest both locations for dosing personally, ADA aqua soil + good water column dosing. This way if you forget, go on vacation etc......you have a back up and the soil last longer with out running out of steam.


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

pejerrey said:


> Yeah. I think every new hobbyist should start with EI and 50% WC to be able to figure light/co2.
> 
> It's a sure shot!



A lot of us started easy and just trying to get by until it hits us that we should using EI dosing and reliable CO2 system. Personally, I like water change. I even do 2 40% WC per week. I just worry about the organic content being built up in the tank since I don't use any chemical filtration.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> If you look pejerrey's tank, that would take about 5 minutes to change 50% of the water, and the plants would get a nice trim and good frequent care.


 But shrimpers flip about large water changes!  (joke)

I could be doing water changes. I just love to be polemic and controversial I guess. Lol!  

The truth is that I have to haul DI water from whole foods because my roommate is a ----- about me using common resources (utilities) for my hobby. So, 15 gallons of water are heavy to carry to a second floor every week. There was no quorum to install an RO system. He needs to know he's not paying for anything related to my tanks. And opposes my multiple tank set up.... I have to keep them all with a kw meter so he can see the cost.

But hey... He can leave the lights on all night and day.... and wash dishes with the water running full throttle the whole time. Ok, I'm venting... Sorry.



Oh, and about the plants... I have a lot of hardware and a massive sponge on the left (7x5x5) to hide, for example... Do you see my spray bar? 

Hehe, just wanted to explain why I do it that way folks.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

> you have a back up and the soil last longer with out running out of steam


I got this benefit by using a high CEC substrate and EI dosing. At least some of the fertilizer was getting sequestered in the substrate. 
When I could not dose for a while the plants kept on doing just fine.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

pejerrey said:


> But shrimpers flip about large water changes!  (joke)
> 
> I could be doing water changes. I just love to be polemic and controversial I guess. Lol!


Many go down this path for awhile..........only to return to the true tried basics.

Shrimp are fine if you do the 1x a month water changes. 
I do not think NOT doing water changes is some sign you are good aquarist, good at dosing rather, the opposite. 



> The truth is that I have to haul DI water from whole foods because my roommate is a ----- about me using common resources (utilities) for my hobby. So, 15 gallons of water are heavy to carry to a second floor every week. There was no quorum to install an RO system. He needs to know he's not paying for anything related to my tanks. And opposes my multiple tank set up.... I have to keep them all with a kw meter so he can see the cost.


Get a place that allows you not to have issues with the hobby, that's a much better solution.

And not just with the hobby, the guy sounds like an idiot. 
So life will be better on many different fronts.



> But hey... He can leave the lights on all night and day.... and wash dishes with the water running full throttle the whole time. Ok, I'm venting... Sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cause your roommate tells you to to do it eh? :redface:
hehe

I'm messing with ya.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Ahhhh, c'mon Tom... Tank looks good to me, I don't have to be dealing with bs from my house mate (who owns the house) and I have a huge house with a huge backyard for 1300, he lives in the in law unit. Yes... Not very bright man... 

The bottom line Tom is that the shrimps are fine and breeding, the plants are healthy, I have a tiny bit of BBA in the spray bar and a lil bit of moss has browned, but that is all.

It's a shrimp tank!  it looks way better than most of the shrimp tanks I see here in TPT! Lol!

I change water weekly in my other 2 smaller tanks if that makes you happy... 

I think you don't like me because I use PPSpro instead of EI, right?

Hehehe, joke.


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## Lugnut (Aug 12, 2010)

Is there a thread somewhere that gives some detail about the symptoms of Overdosing? I am curious about what would you see if you kept on dosing EI or close to it, but did W/C like every few months. I have often wondered what it would look like if you went too far the other way.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Lugnut said:


> Is there a thread somewhere that gives some detail about the symptoms of Overdosing? I am curious about what would you see if you kept on dosing EI or close to it, but did W/C like every few months. I have often wondered what it would look like if you went too far the other way.


I've run about 160ppm as NO3 and 20ppm for PO4, 10ppm fof Fe, 100ppm for K+, no adverse impacts on any plants. 

Hoagland's solution is a common fertilizer used in hydroponics.
N is 210 ppm, K+ is 235ppm, P is like 32ppm

If you only do water changes once every few months, then go non CO2 methods or reduce the dosing and the lighting intensity. If you cannot do either nor do a water change, frankly..........consider another hobby.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

pejerrey said:


> Ahhhh, c'mon Tom... Tank looks good to me, I don't have to be dealing with bs from my house mate (who owns the house) and I have a huge house with a huge backyard for 1300, he lives in the in law unit. Yes... Not very bright man...
> 
> The bottom line Tom is that the shrimps are fine and breeding, the plants are healthy, I have a tiny bit of BBA in the spray bar and a lil bit of moss has browned, but that is all.
> 
> ...


Dosing less than the suggested EI is the same thing, or, dosing more of PMDD is the same as EI. They both add the same things to the same location in the water, just less/more.


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## Lugnut (Aug 12, 2010)

I do water changes and have Co2. I was just curious to know what would happen if you had too much nutrients in the water without resetting by water change.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

All of our fertilizer chemicals are salts. If you really do have too much of any of them you are getting into a brackish water situation, and most aquatic plants don't like that at all. Of course, of all of the thousands of aquatic plants that are now known, there are some that won't tolerate as much fertilizer build up as others tolerate. Some plants even grow in brackish water.


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## kalawai2000 (Jan 15, 2011)

I think plants are more tolerant then we give them credit for...


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

kalawai2000 said:


> I think plants are more tolerant then we give them credit for...


Well, some species of aquatic plants are completely intolerant of me They persist in insulting me by dieing.


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## kalawai2000 (Jan 15, 2011)

Hoppy said:


> Well, some species of aquatic plants are completely intolerant of me They persist in insulting me by dieing.


LOL!! :hihi:
Maybe you just need to say something sweet to them.


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