# What deficiency in my toninas?



## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

This is a lot more sensitive plant than syngonanthus sp's which I thought required about the same amount of conditions. I'm not giving you specs until I get a few replies to see whether you can guess the deficiency right off the bat by leaf color, structure, etc. Heres pics: Please help me grow my tonina. I have regular, narrow leaf, and lotus blossom. I am guessing calcium


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## JoraaÑ (Jun 29, 2009)

Co2. look at the algae all over on other plants..


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

CO2, I have massive amounts of Tonina.

I do not think you can produce Ca++ deficient plants.........

Never seen a verified case to do date in a hobbyists tank. My tap is very very soft, unless you run pure RO, never dose any Ca++ and have inert sediment........

Then maybe.

I only add maybe 2-3 ppm Ca++ a week on my 120 gal and my GH is well under 2 degrees.

I only have maybe 10ppm or less and my tap is extremely soft.

Wildly popular to say Ca++ deficiency on the web however, but 99.999% of the time........... it's incorrect.

CO2 is the lion's share.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

I've got three diffusers pumping into this tank though. Are you sure its co2? I thought so because my plants wouldn't pearl that much but I thought that was since I had enough nutrients so they weren't over metabolising. 

Okay so what do I do? 
I am NOT changing my hob filter, I've never had success with other filters as I would then get too much co2 into the tank and not enough respiration....
Maybe I'll change to micro automic diffusers as these are up aqua glass diffusers. please advise.


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

What size tank and what's your BPS? 

Is this tank covered? Your HOB filter could cause the CO2 to be gassing off too.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

30 gallon cube
Tanks not covered
Heres a video to understand better how co2 is injected and how i have a hob and uv for flow.

how do i embed this video? or not avail in quickpost?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVnYOwOOhOQ&feature=youtu.be

I'm thinking about just getting rid of the hob all together as i have the uv for flow, but it doesnt seem like too much flow does it? Algae is a great indicator of co2 defic.

splashing noise in backround is another tank.


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## JoraaÑ (Jun 29, 2009)

StrungOut said:


> 30 gallon cube
> I'm thinking about just getting rid of the hob all together as i have the uv for flow, but it doesnt seem like too much flow does it? Algae is a great indicator of co2 defic.


.

You are wasting co2 and Electricity use and those Hob and blowing co2 away. Use power head and possible get 1 of the atomizer diffuser like this  from GLA or Ebay...that fit in your canister hose. 

you don't need 3 diffuser for that small tank.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Could I possibly be blasting it too high as where the bigger bubbles aren't getting diffused? But surely still there are small bubbles coming outta the diffuser as well x 3 getting diffused. 

Getting rid of the HOB.

This tank had a HOB, with one atomic diffuser, so I'm doing something wrong.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Without knowing what lighting you have it is hard to guess how critical the CO2 is. But, it is absurdly easy to eliminate any other deficiency - just dose more. So, that kind of leaves the CO2 as what's left. Is the tank about a 20" x 20" x 20" tank. If so, it takes special effort to use a two bulb T5HO light without having high light, making CO2 very critical.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

I have a t5 fixture 4 bulbs that i move in 3 positions during the day every 4 hours back center and front., its very high light for 24x24x12 h. I'm not messing with the lighting though, not raising it, not lowering it, so i'll have to adjust the co2 accordingly. I dose dry ferts via EI? where I dose a ton take out with weekly to maybe once in awhile bi-weekly if i feel like it. I've got N, P(said K can be derived from this?), Iron, seachem trace which all dosed vigorously. Pure RO used, I've got equilibrium but since no fauna in tank I don't use it.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Yeah co2 was blasted too high I'm almost sure, I lowered and a little microbubbles are out and just a tiny bit of pearling. Not as much as I'd like to see outta the lighting intensity given from this tank. These diffusers suck, I am now going to change them to atomic one/s which I'll try and buy tomorrow and update. I am guessing I'll see results very very fast.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

StrungOut said:


> I've got three diffusers pumping into this tank though. Are you sure its co2? I thought so because my plants wouldn't pearl that much but I thought that was since I had enough nutrients so they weren't over metabolising.
> 
> Okay so what do I do?
> I am NOT changing my hob filter, I've never had success with other filters as I would then get too much co2 into the tank and not enough respiration....
> Maybe I'll change to micro automic diffusers as these are up aqua glass diffusers. please advise.


Here's my Tonina I sold last week from a tiny runty leftovers:



















I have very low Ca, high K+, high PO4, NO3, rich sediment, good light, filtration etc.

CO2 is also related to O2.........and good O2 is required for a healthy tank IME. You might lose a little cO2 getting more current and surface movement etc.but you can always add a little more CO2 to compensate, but O2, the only way is a wet/dry filter and/or surface movement but plants can add some only during the day..........

Current and flow in the tank can help a lot. Seeing how much CO2 is added in the first few hours as the light comes on is also critical.

I watch the plants, algae, fish more than anything when setting CO2.
I adjust it slowly, I keep the CO2 system clean, I clean the filter etc.
Anything with algae, get's trimmed up and replanted.

Excel can be added also.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

StrungOut said:


> Could I possibly be blasting it too high as where the bigger bubbles aren't getting diffused? But surely still there are small bubbles coming outta the diffuser as well x 3 getting diffused.
> 
> Getting rid of the HOB.
> 
> This tank had a HOB, with one atomic diffuser, so I'm doing something wrong.


Looks fine on the lighting is such a shallow tank.
HOB is a bad idea, some folks do okay with them.

If the water evaporates much between adding water/water changes etc...then this can cause a lot more degassing later on before you refill the tank with a HOB.

My nano's were a PITA for this reason, small tank volume high evaporation and large water levels changes every 2-3 days.


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

If you are using straight RO water then you have no buffer to the C02, and you will have much wider pH swings. That will stress the fish more than having " too much C02". Obviously your plants need more C02, but its unstable.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Robert H said:


> If you are using straight RO water then you have no buffer to the C02, and you will have much wider pH swings. That will stress the fish more than having " too much C02". Obviously your plants need more C02, but its unstable.


I have no fish in this tank, mainly purpose is to grow out and sell and enjoy watching it as well. I could very well buffer the ro if needed to and if advised to if its gonna help the plants.


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## jgb77 (Dec 13, 2006)

StrungOut said:


> I have no fish in this tank, mainly purpose is to grow out and sell and enjoy watching it as well. I could very well buffer the ro if needed to and if advised to if its gonna help the plants.


No, there is no need to add any buffer (kh) for the plants sake,they don't need it and don't get anything from it.
Nice tank by the way.
John


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Since you have no fish in the tank, and very high light, you need a much better way of getting CO2 into the water. An external reactor - PVC pipe type - will be better than what you now have. Or a needlewheel powerhead in the tank, with CO2 going through the impeller so it gets chopped into microbubbles and blown all over the tank, is even a better way. Right now your CO2 mostly goes straight out the top of the tank as the bubbles hit the water surface. I would consider doubling the EI table dosages too, to go along with the high light and high CO2. Don't forget, the plants do need some calcium and magnesium, which isn't in the RO water.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Well I added 2 atomic diffusers intake and they're working great. Plants are pearling nicely you can't tell really from the video. I expected more recovery though, am I missing something or does it take a little longer?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9lYihjqzJg&feature=youtu.be


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

it takes until new growth comes to a point where u can trim and replant. the growth that is already affected will not change

it takes time
i've wiped out 80% of my plant mass multiple times due to either unintentional neglect or c02/ lighting issues
this last go-around was due to poor sealing of my wet dry system.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

i think you also need to adjust the flow patern. looks like co2 is only reaching the half way and going up in your video, its better if you can make it lower, this way it goes through the lower stems.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

I put my hob back on and took the uv out. The diffusers are located below the flow so it disperses through out the whole tank. There is a ton of bubbles you just can't see em from the crappy video quality. Looks like soda in person or something.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Watch closely and for a few min often.........and be patient.

Recovery for some species takes time, and during this recovery period, do 2-3x a week water changes, trim and pick at things good etc.

Stay on top of it, later, once things bounce back, then you can relax a little.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> Watch closely and for a few min often.........and be patient.
> 
> Recovery for some species takes time, and during this recovery period, do 2-3x a week water changes, trim and pick at things good etc.
> 
> Stay on top of it, later, once things bounce back, then you can relax a little.


Thank you and others for help. I will do this. In regards to my narrow leaf is this trimmable pickable? I don't want to lose this plant.










Toninas seemed the most suffered, other plants in tank look to be bouncing back fast. Algae is not gone yet, but I didn't expect either right away.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

On a side note, my syn. rio uaupes is really picking up and throwing out sides despite the algae. I'm loving this plant and so glad it was available by CR.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

StrungOut said:


> Thank you and others for help. I will do this. In regards to my narrow leaf is this trimmable pickable? I don't want to lose this plant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That looks almost toasted.
No getting that to recover I would say.
The tops should be reasonably clean right? 

Save just those.

You might toss the other stuff in a bag in the dark for 3 days then clean them off and place in a high light spot. add Excel also at 5mls per 10 Gal daily.


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## JoraaÑ (Jun 29, 2009)

Again listen to what others said..and get a power head or Wave maker(better) to circulate co2 in tank..


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Joraan said:


> Again listen to what others said..and get a power head or Wave maker(better) to circulate co2 in tank..


No. My plants are pearling like crazy now. I need the o2. I've never been able to grow anything without the o2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ7KIV_uNdo&feature=youtu.be

video quality is very poor when changed to flv format so you can't see bubbles as well.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

StrungOut said:


> No. My plants are pearling like crazy now. I need the o2. I've never been able to grow anything without the o2.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ7KIV_uNdo&feature=youtu.be
> 
> video quality is very poor when changed to flv format so you can't see bubbles as well.


Thanks for the video, you have zero surface movement.

Here's my tank:









you can see the difference. This allows more degassing of CO2, but that's EASY to add more if needed, but...........it also adds and exchanges O2, which is central for bacteria that require it for respiration. The bacteria likely have some role and helping break down waste quickly. 

since you do not enrich O2...........you are basically placing the bacteria/fish/plants in a O2 deficient system, if you had a lot of fish, they'd be at the surface or dead.

This would be true even if you did not add CO2 with that poor surface movement.

I do not sacrificed my fish's well being for plants. I can always add more CO2/light/ferts etc to make up for any losses, but adding more O2 is tough unless you want to go with the gas tank O2 method, but that's another headache and you can kill your fish with too much O2 also.

You also should do another water change and do them every 2-3 days till things clean and clear up, say like 70% etc.

You should see a good response. Try and do them maybe 1 hour or so after the lights come on.

Clean, trim etc BEFORE, then do the water change.
Clean the filters more often also, at least till things settle down.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

i thought we dont need o2 at all if we are keeping plants only.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Joraan said:


> Again listen to what others said..and get a power head or Wave maker(better) to circulate co2 in tank..


ty AJ
I misinterpreted this one, thought you meant to get rid of the hob and just use a powerhead. 

ty Barr

Happi, I believe plants need o2 at night for respiration. They do not intake co2 at this time and its reverse effect.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

new additions to my tank thanks to AJ and Joey.

L. pantanal









Rotala Sunset, marooning up nicely









Acotis whatever









staurogyne purple









L. senegalensis









More belem









eriocaulon type I









old syn. uaupes, loving this plant









FTS, THIS is all coming together nicely, ty for help


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

hey man! glad to see thigns turning around for you 
its always nice to come out of the deep dark pit of algae


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Looking better, keep up with Good CO2, water changes and clean the tank well, fluff the detritus off the plants, lightly vacuum dust etc.

Not doing those things is the deficiency.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> Looking better, keep up with Good CO2, water changes and clean the tank well, fluff the detritus off the plants, lightly vacuum dust etc.
> 
> Not doing those things is the deficiency.


I will do this thank you. I've got a question about dosing, if you dose macros, you have to dose micros another day or they won't work right? I dose dry without any real consistency. Just poor the dry fertz in my filter, have N dry, P dry, and iron dry, then I have seachem trace. I wanna get K dry and traces dry.

@ Brandon shipping your belem and uaupes today will give you track number, uaupes is the smaller plant, sorry about the algae but its a strong plant.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Just did a water change, as well instead of adding a powerhead just took the pantyhose off my filter intake and flow is really good now.

No one knows on the macro and micro dosing??? My pantanal seems to lack iron or something already as its turning greenish. I'd like to dose my traces but already put a lot of N and P back in.

Heres a video update:
http://s284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/StrungOut_bucket/?action=view&current=MVI_6131.mp4

Its getting there


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## jgb77 (Dec 13, 2006)

You can dose macros and micros the same day. I add them both everyday. Just add the po4 and iron separately,as in wait a few minutes between adding each to the tank.
John


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

StrungOut said:


> I will do this thank you. I've got a question about dosing, if you dose macros, you have to dose micros another day or they won't work right? I dose dry without any real consistency. Just poor the dry fertz in my filter, have N dry, P dry, and iron dry, then I have seachem trace. I wanna get K dry and traces dry.
> 
> @ Brandon shipping your belem and uaupes today will give you track number, uaupes is the smaller plant, sorry about the algae but its a strong plant.


Rats, I was looking for some S uaupes


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jgb77 said:


> You can dose macros and micros the same day. I add them both everyday. Just add the po4 and iron separately,as in wait a few minutes between adding each to the tank.
> John


This works, I dose 2-3x a week. Some folks find consistency dosing daily because they feed the fish daily etc, I've always thought and behaved differently. I feed my fish 2-4x a day, but plants, 2-3x a week, I might add Excel if I dose it, and traces most days, maybe 4-5 a week etc. On client tanks with autodosers, daily.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> Rats, I was looking for some S uaupes


Wanna trade a stem for something? You have lago grande?
ty John


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

StrungOut said:


> I will do this thank you. I've got a question about dosing, if you dose macros, you have to dose micros another day or they won't work right? I dose dry without any real consistency. Just poor the dry fertz in my filter, have N dry, P dry, and iron dry, then I have seachem trace. I wanna get K dry and traces dry.
> 
> @ Brandon shipping your belem and uaupes today will give you track number, uaupes is the smaller plant, sorry about the algae but its a strong plant.


i've often heard about phosphorous and iron mixig and being useless. but both are still in the water column when u dose one or the other so.. ehh i dunno

thanks!!! i will let ya know when they get here
algae HA i scoff at it. been there done that. it doesn't scare me anymore it just means work to ge rid of it


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## SMinNC (Mar 28, 2012)

I just came across this thread, and read 98% of it...
(still new to this forum)




StrungOut said:


> Heres a video to understand better how co2 is injected...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVnYOwOOhOQ&feature=youtu.be


*Was I the only one that watched the first video posted?*
At 5 seconds in I was .

I haven't used any bottled co2 yet. But from what I've read and seen of others in forums. You must have been using up a 20lb tank in a week?

Glad to see how it's came along though. : )


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

lol you'll be surprised how much c02 is held when its compressed. counting my bubbles per second was mind boggling when i realized my c02 is on 9 hours per day for about 3 months before i need a refill on my 5lb


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Your calculations are wrong, co2 would last me quite awhile. Went into a 3 way splitter and the diffusers are kind've control the rate. But its also a 20lb tank. Bout 2 months at this rate. I wouldn't have to worry about it for awhile but suppose it could've lasted longer.

here are picture updates:
syn. madeira and rotala sunset (im gona propagate this bad boy as soon as i get the chance)








acotis








pantanal mids turing green
















eriocaulon type I








syn rio uaupes








syn belems








riccia


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

i feel sorry for the pantanal, it looks very stunted. pantanal makes a great plant for deficiencies indicator.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

20lb tank lasted 2 months???
jesus i have my c02 cranked on my 29 gallon. i use a 5 lb and it lasts 2-3 months

how big are the bubbles on ur diffusers? they may be too big. try turning them down a bit. thye may not be dissolving at all if u use a 20lb that fast


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

StrungOut said:


> Wanna trade a stem for something? You have lago grande?
> ty John


I do not have any Sygnonanthus ATM, but others........


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The pantanal reeks of CO2 issues. Progressively smaller tip growth.
But it'll recover..........weeds like this one always do.

Fast growing weeds are good and so are wimpy touchy plants.
The faster growers will response with a reduced rate of growth(this will be easier to see than other species), but this might not express as stunted tip growth or color changes, etc..........The wimpy plants will stunt and not grow much, or be much more touchy overall.

The Erio type 1, E setaceum is the wimpiest plant I think in this group.
Most of the species in this tank tend to be tougher for most folks, but this is due to CO2 and low KH.

Most of these species are not strong competitors for CO2.
If you see issues, focus there.

20lb tank every 2 Months? Might want to work on increasing efficacy there.
Even my 120 gets 3-4 months out a 10 lb tank with nuke power light, wide open top, prefilter/wet/dryfilter etc.

I could not count the bubble rate if I tried.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

my 20lb last for 1 year with many bps, i saw your older video and that explains why you have wasted so much co2. were you able to take a breath in that room??


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Great scott! I just watched the video. Turnit down man! Ur aiming for micro bubbles not superluft air pumps.. no wonder ur c02 is crazy. Its not even dissolving


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Still think there's not a CO2 issue? hehe


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> The pantanal reeks of CO2 issues. Progressively smaller tip growth.
> But it'll recover..........weeds like this one always do.
> 
> Fast growing weeds are good and so are wimpy touchy plants.
> ...


I am now very confused....So is my co2 too high now? bump it down? would it matter? It is definitely getting diffused.

Tom what kind've Ludwigias do you have if you want to do a trade one stem for one stem.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> Great scott! I just watched the video. Turnit down man! Ur aiming for micro bubbles not superluft air pumps.. no wonder ur c02 is crazy. Its not even dissolving


No watch the latest video, I do have microbubbles.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

happi said:


> my 20lb last for 1 year with many bps, i saw your older video and that explains why you have wasted so much co2. were you able to take a breath in that room??


My lungs are already shot so I can't even tell anymore if I'm breathing oxygen or something else :redface:


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> Still think there's not a CO2 issue? hehe


Man Tom, you should just come over to my house and fix everything.:fish:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

StrungOut said:


> I am now very confused....So is my co2 too high now? bump it down? would it matter? It is definitely getting diffused.
> 
> Tom what kind've Ludwigias do you have if you want to do a trade one stem for one stem.


Well, might be, I do not know.
Sounds like you are burning through a lot of gas, this might not have anything to do with the CO2 ppm in your tank though:icon_excl

Might be due to a leak someswheres.........

But let us say its all going into the tank...........

I think striking a good balance, not too much that you gas the fish, decent current and surface movement so you have some O2 exchange.......etc are good ideas to try for.

But the plants seem primary for your tank, so you cannot gas them really......but we go too little, then try and go too far often times and are impatient.

Better to adjust CO2 in small steps and watch responses.
Here's why: if the CO2 declines or drops off a little bit again? You'll know what to look for. If it's just a huge change, you'll miss the more subtle changes and not learn as much.

Yea, it takes more time and patience, but it is well worth it.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

StrungOut said:


> Man Tom, you should just come over to my house and fix everything.:fish:


I'll bring the chain saw and wrecking bar, there's nothing those two cannot fix.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

StrungOut said:


> Tom what kind've Ludwigias do you have if you want to do a trade one stem for one stem.


L. pilosa, L perunisis, L "red", L. pantanal(you have it), L inclinata red.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> L. pilosa, L perunisis, L "red", L. pantanal(you have it), L inclinata red.


Pilosa is what I'm looking for. you got a picture of perunsis though?

Your up in sack town right? I mean sacramento?

Patience is what I need, but don't have, we're running out of time I believe and aI want to make my therapeutic dream tank.

I turned down the co2, I see no difference in bubble size, just the rate at how fast the co2 rises to the surface. Pics vids I can provide for further assisting me. 



































Now I know what you mean by the pantanal, today the leaves are much broader but not as red at the top as I'd like. Makes me think I should just wait and not change anything. I really want to rid of this algae though, been dosing metricide 30, they sent me this instead of 14.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

And here are the plants for today took just now before I just now tuned down the co2.


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## JoraaÑ (Jun 29, 2009)

Whats wrong with you Lad??? Patience is the key..1st.:2nd there is no such thing like Rocket Science...Plant take time to adjust from different parameter...20# for 30 gal tank for only 2 months is a waste of co2 for sure...My 125 gals sucks 20# 10 hours for 3 months or so....


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

The future's uncertain, and the end is always near."

haha

Yeah I'll try and be patient. my bad aj


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

so i've been watching my pantanal now and it seems to change really quickly like happi said. Leaves are now curled and stretching towards the light? I'm taking this is a sign of lack of co2 now.


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## SMinNC (Mar 28, 2012)

None of your Photobucket pictures are showing up for me.

Says you're popular and had to many views.. : )


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## SMinNC (Mar 28, 2012)

Here's my semi-edjumicated guesstimation of whats happened here...

The massive amount of CO2 you "were" pushing through your system(on vid 1). Acted no differently than using an O2 Pump.
The massive explosions at the surface were blowing out all the CO2, including the CO2 you were making the explosions with.

This... is looking pretty good to me.


StrungOut said:


> Heres a video update:
> http://s284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/StrungOut_bucket/?action=view&current=MVI_6131.mp4
> 
> Its getting there


Thats on 04-26-2012.
It is now 04-28-2012.

I'm in the same boat with you with the patience thing... but now is a good time for some practice with it. ; )

Maybe some fiddling around with very small change's with water movement. So you can use even less CO2, and find that happy medium.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

I APOLOGIZE. i did not mean to be misleading. i watched this video 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVnYO...ature=youtu.be

and that freaked me out. ill check the other video and see what's what

i saw the better diffused video. flow would greatly help this tank. it seemed like the bubbles where just kinda floatin around

if the flow issue has been resolved. then ur on the righ track


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

SMinNC said:


> None of your Photobucket pictures are showing up for me.
> 
> Says you're popular and had to many views.. : )


NOOOOOOOOO, this is not good at all. I've exceeded my limit and photobucket wants me to pay and upgrade my account. Is there anyway please please please around this??? My links....Can I delete pictures? It seems I can't get the links activated back.


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## jgb77 (Dec 13, 2006)

The pics are working again now.
John


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

SMinNC said:


> Here's my semi-edjumicated guesstimation of whats happened here...
> 
> The massive amount of CO2 you "were" pushing through your system(on vid 1). Acted no differently than using an O2 Pump.
> The massive explosions at the surface were blowing out all the CO2, including the CO2 you were making the explosions with.
> ...


Thank you, I have no upgraded to pro just for my moss passion thread.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

StrungOut said:


> Thank you, I have no upgraded to pro just for my moss passion thread.


Good moss growth, particularly Fissidens are good indicators of good CO2.
Watching plants is a relative measure of CO2, add just enough to get excellent healthy growth.

And the other issue: patience.
We all lack that, even if we know it.

Still, over 1-3 weeks, the plants will start kicking butt........ as this starts.......it'll get better and better and the tank will become more and more stable. I refer to this as plant growth "momentum". 

Once things are going well, and stable after say 3-4 weeks, then you can relax a bit. Till then? Water changes(2-3x a week, 50-80%) dose after the water change, do these in the morning or at the light on cycle or 1-2 hours after the lights come on.

Clean the filters, trim dead leaves, fluff plants, clean the snot out of the filters, keep anything to do with the CO2 clean.........

Most of this stuff is basic and tweaking the CO2 correctly, ferts, and modifying the light is fairly easy.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Well heres an update of my tank:

Getting good growth now from the tops. I upgraded the size of my AC hob and added two airstones as well.

Pantanal is growing rapidly but just aint getting red. Light is directly over it for 4 hours and then I move the light towards the center for 4 hours and to the back for remainder of photoperiod. It varies. Hopefully I don't still have a co2 problem or else I give up...never! I haven't been doing a good job of getting rid of the dead bottom leaves but algae has massively decreased if you can tell. Been doing 70% water changes irregularly and now dosing liquid mix I made up with my dry fertz. I also have a light coming in so instead of this quad t5 I'll have 2 t5 dual fixtures to spread light more evenly so I don't have to move anything throughout the day. I've completely stopped using metricide 30, stuff scares me. Here are pics:

syngonanthus rio uaupes going to Tom Barr, kind've don't want him to get it as he'll propagate the crap outta it and it'll just make me feel bad, plus I want this particular species to stay rare. Favorite plant by far. call me sel fish









syn. rio uaupes being kept

















fts









surprised this sensitive plant is doing well type I









stargrass









R. sunset








R. Mac. Variegated








P. Helferi Downoi








my greenish pantanal








Syn. Belem which I really should trim all the dead underneath








acotis sp








tonina i'm praying will throw out sideshoots or something...they're wasted
















staurogyne purple








ET








polygonum sao paolo








R. Yao Yai








L. Palustris cf.... got more in back
















Syngonanthus Madeira








E. Belem









Real special thanks to all helping out


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I can always just sell it back to you, but if you have troubles with the growth, well....it does not matter. So focus on that.

Tank needs trimmed and the plants cleaned up and preened good. I'd do maybe most of the ones in the tank, then also add some cheap dither plants to pack the rest of the tank till things get better. The tank is dirty and there's algae, needs a good cleaning. then clean the filter a few days later, 203x a week 60-80% water changes.

Clean glass each time, scrape along the bottom edge and pull the soil back and get at the scum on the glass there also. Dose excel. Anything that's weak and cannot handle a move/trim, leave, but everything else............


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

I'm getting pretty good growth now so I don't think that'll be necessary, planning on making this my foreground. I just don't want this sp. to get all common.

Cleaning the plants is going to be my hardest issue as I am unexperienced. So lazy about it. I'd have to uproot the plant and pluck out the bottom leaves and such. Scrubbing the algae off the glass will be easy though comes right off. I'll clean the filter and continue the water changes. Dosing metricide(*excel*) I'm not gonna do though, I'll use it as a last resort.

My pantanal not being pink is that a lighting issue?


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

StrungOut said:


> I'm getting pretty good growth now so I don't think that'll be necessary, planning on making this my foreground. I just don't want this sp. to get all common.
> 
> Cleaning the plants is going to be my hardest issue as I am unexperienced. So lazy about it. I'd have to uproot the plant and pluck out the bottom leaves and such. Scrubbing the algae off the glass will be easy though comes right off. I'll clean the filter and continue the water changes. Dosing metricide(*excel*) I'm not gonna do though, I'll use it as a last resort.
> 
> My pantanal not being pink is that a lighting issue?


if pulling ad cleanign is an issue. trimming lower leaves while in the tank and fluffing the debris off is an option.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

As advised which everyone should do follow the experts and learn, I've trimmed most of the algae leaves. I redid the whole tank. Pulled every plant out and put new ones in as well. It took me about an hour and a half with few 4 min breaks to complete everything. I also picked up some KSO4 and csm+b and when that runs out I'll try out the pmdd I also got. Here is my redone tank. Off two stems of rio uaupes I was able to split 8 stems total. I am very appreciative for the help received here on the forum and with putting the time in with redoing everything and doing my water changes.

Lighting is all the way in the back for pics and past photoperiod turned back on.
FTS
















































overview belem








overview pantanal cut each stem in half








rio uaupes in there, madeira in there








added glosso








stauro purps, downoi and others








golden nesea








heren..stargrass








blyxa alt.








something








ludwigia cf palustris








ludwigia perv.








rotala vietnam?








type I








senegalensis guinea, rotala mexicana something, sunset


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Water changes(do many and large(2x a week min). good CO2, Amano shrimp, RCS, Otto Cats, anything that will eat film like algae, dose after each water change, light to 8-9 hours tops.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Got it. No fauna though! The only consideration would be rabbit snails but I don't want to raise the tds enough to keep em and they eat plants from what I've observed.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Well I think I've got all conditions down except fertilization which I am trying to do by observing and dosing randomly a lot. I hope with fertz a little doesn't go a long way as I'm trying to get rapid growth. Switched my 4 tube t5 fixture to two 2 tube fixtures to disperse light more evenly. Seems 4 tubes over a certain area was way too much. The flow of my AC is mixing the tank very nicely. Still got one big airstone in there but took one out. I'm beginning tonight to tuned down the co2 all the way and then tune back up in the morning. Got some new plants I put in and took some stargrass out to replace. I'm watching my syngonanthus very carefully as they're my main focus for propagation. New growth on rio uaupes appears whitish so I would dose more traces, actually I pumped a ton of nitrates in there as well. This is all in a day and I look forward to results on tomorrow. Doing my water changes probably every other day, haven't cleaned the filter, scraped the glass, its really not that much work. Not nearly enough work that discus require. Here are updated pics:

fts








wasted downoi








acotis sp








new tropica 049








staurogyne purple








shot








new lighting
















stoked about this one trimmed pantanal throwing tiny sideshoot, spotted on 3 trimmed plants








golden nesea not very golden








new plant I don't know what it is, or what I've got, willing to trade as it takes too much room for what I want








polygonum sao paolo








rotala mexicana, can't wait till this gets its red tops, plant can look amazing
















left side shot








rotala macrandra variegated throwing sideshoots, hoping to trim some in a few days
















syngonanthus rio uaupes surrounded by other syngonathus








blyxa a








ludwigia pilosa








pantanal starting to get pink again?








eriocaulon type I








ludwigia pervsunis*spelling








overview pantanal








common unknown to me








ludwigia cf palustris


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Well I just did a 85% water change last night and didn't dose any fertz at all this time and the pink in my pantanal is restoring...I am now completely confused.

Is dosing a ton of nutrients taking em out by water change and restoring them completely not the way to go?
Pics don't do justice of the beauty i see.

























Or is it that most red plants should really be green if not stunted or lacking something?


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## jgb77 (Dec 13, 2006)

What and how much are you dosing for traces? Your plants look like they are lacking in iron and micros in general. The pale new growth especially in the Syngonanthus is a dead give away for iron/traces issues in my experience.
John


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

I was watching this too in my syngonanthus and went crazy in fertz, the change was slowly different but not much, I couldn't understand it.

I use my mix of iron chelate and csm+b and I was dosing a ton before. My mixes:
mixed in 500ml dispenser pump
N 1 1/2 teaspons
K+P mixed together K is same as N, P is 3/4 teaspoons
Iron chelate mixed with CSM+B 1 teaspoon, 1 teaspoon

Then I would pump 10-15 pumps from my dispenser of N, same with traces, And around 5 pumps from K+P. I thought you couldn't overdose fertilizer if you had co2 up.

A buddy of mine told me I have way too much of everything(light, co2, fertz) so algae is combating as well. Things are looking better though, I'll update pics tomorrow. Since its a shallow tank I don't know how to solve the lighting, I'd like to keep so my buddy suggested I switch the photoperiod down to 5-7 hours a day instead of my 9-10 I've been doing. And definitely keep up with water changes, 20% a day.


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## JoraaÑ (Jun 29, 2009)

I bet you have rotala mexicana....it looks more like Ludwigia senegalensis/guinea


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

I have both sir, barely any though


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## JoraaÑ (Jun 29, 2009)

StrungOut said:


> I have both sir, barely any though


Put me in line...will pay top $$ for mexicana...but still I doubt..perhaps it might be from Emersed set up.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Joraan said:


> Put me in line...will pay top $$ for mexicana...but still I doubt..perhaps it might be from Emersed set up.


I'll send you a stem when ready, no need to pay, thx for the pills.

I'm pretty sure it is as I've seen the red come out before.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Update of how my belems getting new little growth:
Not the greatest but its progress








































siideshoots coming outta pantanal


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## jgb77 (Dec 13, 2006)

The plants look much better from when you first posted. If this were my tank, I'd wait for the new growth to get a few inches, then cut the tops off and discard the bottoms. I'm talking specifically about the Belems in your last set of pictures.
John


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Yep, much better, do more water changes(2-3x a week) and dose thereafter.

Trim after nicer new healthy growth fills in, maybe 1-2 weeks etc for some, maybe a little longer for some others.


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## JoraaÑ (Jun 29, 2009)

Howz this tank? rotala mexicana- any growth?


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

yes i am curiousas well how thigns are going


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

The good, things are growing
The bad, I'm having problems with brown stringy algae that easily seems to be removed and lack of fertilization's made the plants that should be red be green
If I can muster the strength to redo the tank and get co2 again
Haven't really done much but things are still growing lights out and all









plants that should have red tips
















madeira








rio uaupes

































your mexicana


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