# Please critique my Mini M layout



## ldk59 (Jan 30, 2009)

Hardscape looks like a winner to me... if anything the stones may be 
just a bit small, but if it were me I'd roll with it as is.

Substrate depth is fine as well... I have 4" in one corner of mine.

Are you starting the tank emersed?

What plants will you be using?

What are your plans for fauna, lighting, filtration... give us the details :thumbsup:

Larry


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## dougiefresh (Sep 5, 2006)

I think the rocks are a bit too understated/small and may get lost in the plantings. Nice start though.


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## cwinson85 (May 22, 2009)

dont have much experience but i think that left rock would look good offset to the front a little more. love that rock on the right, looks great! good luck!


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## blair (Feb 8, 2009)

Looks good :thumbsup:. The small stone in front of the large one on the right will vanish in your carpet; its useless. A good chance of the one on the right getting buried exists, but I think it balances the concave side nicely enough at present. Too bad you don't have one more about the size of the left stone to use on the right. Iwagumi like you are making should be three stones altogether or odd numbered groupings. I realize you have 1 and 3 respectively, but in such a small tank it doesn't read as natural when it blurs as 4 in close proximity.

The soil depth is good. It helps buff up your stones to appear more befitting of the space 

Just my $.02

Aside from those technicalities, great job!  Beautiful stones I might add... This should be a spectacular tank.

I'd agree with the offsetting if they are in a true line when viewed from the top. That should not occur. Can't tell from the pictures.


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## Down_Shift (Sep 20, 2008)

looks ggood


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## sandiegoryu (Feb 15, 2006)

I suggest you move the right stone more to the middle. It seems off right now. You might also try to go for a softer, mountain like look.

Edit: Also try to slope your aquasoil a bit more. You can never have it sloping too much. A shallower depth of soil in the front is also more aesthetically pleasing. At least to me.


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## Bubba_Shrimp (Jun 16, 2009)

Wow, thank you for very much for suggestions and comments!
I'll update the hardscape after work as per your suggestions and post more pictures. I can raise smaller stones up as I buried them in AS to much :icon_roll

Maybe I should convert this post into a journal? Kind of nervous about it as I never post any journals before...


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

I would add another rock so that an odd number of rocks are visible when planted.


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## volatile (Feb 13, 2007)

I would push some of the AS gradually towards the back so you have more of a slope, to give the impression that the tank is bigger.


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## Bubba_Shrimp (Jun 16, 2009)

*Made changes based on your suggestions!*

Made adjustments based on our suggestions. Please let me know if I did it right and if there is anything you would change. 


Thanks for all your help!


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## volatile (Feb 13, 2007)

I think you will probably have even less than 7" to work with, because you won't be able to fill the water to the very top.

From experience, I had some jumpers (shrimp + fish) when I did that :icon_cry:.


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## Bubba_Shrimp (Jun 16, 2009)

Or maybe this?? I do have another rock, so I moved the left one closer to the right and placed an new rock on the left. What do you think?


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## volatile (Feb 13, 2007)

How about Parvula between the rocks and then Elocharis acicularis (also known as Dwarf Hairgrass, but longer at 6-7 inches) for your background.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

I like your second rock arrangement better.


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## Bubba_Shrimp (Jun 16, 2009)

volatile said:


> How about Parvula between the rocks and then Elocharis acicularis (also known as Dwarf Hairgrass, but longer at 6-7 inches) for your background.


I thought about it but am afraid that Parvula will not be visible very well against Acicularis because they look alike (structure vise)...




Axelrodi202 said:


> I like your second rock arrangement better.


With the smaller stone in the middle or the last post with bigger stone?


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## Centromochlus (May 19, 2008)

Axelrodi202 said:


> I like your second rock arrangement better.



Agreed. I love the little cave that is formed by the 3 rocks on the right. Good job! :thumbsup:


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## cwinson85 (May 22, 2009)

i like the last post with the bigger stone. Looks GREAT, also like the slope you added! good luck....


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## Bubba_Shrimp (Jun 16, 2009)

Played with Photoshop today.
Not sure if Stargrass will look good there. But good light and short trimming should keep it low I believe. Do not have a good picture of E. Tenellus so had to improvise  Will it look good over there? Or maybe remove Stargrass and put E. Tenellus all across the background?


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## blair (Feb 8, 2009)

Personally I'd say go with E. Tenellus along the background. A mix of large background plants will detract from your hardscape that you have worked so hard to iron out. The cave you created is interesting, but it will likely be overgrown by the ground cover. Photoshoping is a fun way to try and predict a mature scape, but your HC will have some height to it  Don't fret, it will look more natural this way, and in my opinion also make that larger stone currently stacked appear to be one solid entity which helps give the illusion of an actual sanzon iwagumi formation. Well done!

Also, try to shift the central stone back to a middle alignment like on the previous page. Its leaning towards the left side. Reserve that positioning for the left one if you wish to make them pull apart... it will feel more natural.


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## Bubba_Shrimp (Jun 16, 2009)

blair said:


> Personally I'd say go with E. Tenellus along the background. A mix of large background plants will detract from your hardscape that you have worked so hard to iron out. The cave you created is interesting, but it will likely be overgrown by the ground cover. Photoshoping is a fun way to try and predict a mature scape, but your HC will have some height to it  Don't fret, it will look more natural this way, and in my opinion also make that larger stone currently stacked appear to be one solid entity which helps give the illusion of an actual sanzon iwagumi formation. Well done!
> 
> Also, try to shift the central stone back to a middle alignment like on the previous page. Its leaning towards the left side. Reserve that positioning for the left one if you wish to make them pull apart... it will feel more natural.


Agreed. Mixing background plants will not be a good idea. 
I also have an area in the middle between 3 stones (circled red). What should I plant there? Also E. Tenellus near stones?


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## blair (Feb 8, 2009)

You could try it and give it a trim in that area... or perhaps a mixed carpet with glosso at the stone periphery. You will have to keep at it as it will overtake the HC with runners without maintenance about twice a month.

I'll brainstorm some more and get back to you with ideas, gotta run!


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

There's something that strikes me as off in the hardscape, but I can't say what for sure yet. I think it might be the angle and positioning of the main stone and the relational positioning of the middle support stone. You think it might be possible to get some photo's of the rocks from each of their respective sides? I've got a thread floating around in general about Iwagumi's that might be helpful to read.


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## Bubba_Shrimp (Jun 16, 2009)

Francis Xavier said:


> There's something that strikes me as off in the hardscape, but I can't say what for sure yet. I think it might be the angle and positioning of the main stone and the relational positioning of the middle support stone. You think it might be possible to get some photo's of the rocks from each of their respective sides? I've got a thread floating around in general about Iwagumi's that might be helpful to read.


Will post more pictures tomorrow. I'm currently moving the right set of stones a bit to the right...

Found your Iwagumi Design post - great read, thanks!


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Great setup so far man. Can't wait to see your outcome.


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## blair (Feb 8, 2009)

Here is a mock-up of the stones a bit closer together. Perhaps a consolidation will make it work better with small pieces, but I am not sure... I agree with Francis, something just feels a wee bit off; but its close to where it should be.

In this mock-up I drafted a taller background (nearly full tank height), a contrasting mid-ground top fill much of the void space between the stones and create a dynamic gesture toward the front to define a separation in the hardscape. Around the periphery of the stones would be a slightly taller ground cover, such as glosso or riccia. Keep this supporting ground cover in three unique sections, separated by the grass and stones. Three keeps it feeling natural. Then the main carpet as HC which would suit the mini m nicely!

Just thinking out loud


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## Bubba_Shrimp (Jun 16, 2009)

blair said:


> Here is a mock-up of the stones a bit closer together. Perhaps a consolidation will make it work better with small pieces, but I am not sure... I agree with Francis, something just feels a wee bit off; but its close to where it should be.
> 
> In this mock-up I drafted a taller background (nearly full tank height), a contrasting mid-ground top fill much of the void space between the stones and create a dynamic gesture toward the front to define a separation in the hardscape. Around the periphery of the stones would be a slightly taller ground cover, such as glosso or riccia. Keep this supporting ground cover in three unique sections, separated by the grass and stones. Three keeps it feeling natural. Then the main carpet as HC which would suit the mini m nicely!
> 
> Just thinking out loud


I think what is off is the left stone - it should be a bit bigger or taller and have a similar angle as the big (right) one. Unfortunatelly, I do not have any  Maybe I should buy more...

Like your idea with moving stones and plants between them!
What would be the background plant? I guess Eleocharis Vivipara will be too tall as I have about 7" to the top left. 

 I like E. Tenellus as it kind of messy but not sure if it can reach 6" across all stones.

Not sure why, but I'm not a big fan of Glosso or Riccia (maybe I'm still young and stupid? :icon_roll) 

For the mid ground plant I was thinking about 2 scenarios:

1) If a straight plant (vivipara for example) selected as background plant, then maybe some micro sword or blyxa between the stones?

2) If E. Tenellus selected as background plant, then densely planted 
Eleocharis parvula between stones.

What do you think?


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

I like Blair's mark-up. I'd make sure the "V" in the layout is at about the 2/3rds ratio and then make the following adjustments:

For the background use something that grows up rather straight, and a little bit thicker than Hair Grass in general. However, keep an area that encompasses where the "V" is in the hardscape bare in the back. Or have the background extend from the right side of the tank to a little bit past the 2/3rds mark in the middle of the V and have the rest of it blank. The idea here is to use open space to emphasize covered space, adding to the idea that it's an endless scene.

Eliminate the double slope, have the left side level off or move downward from where the focal point is, maybe a little bit more slope on the right.

For the center area plant that comprises the area between the stones, use Blyxa.

and for the main body carpet use UG.

This will maintain a thick "flow" feel to the layout, as if the whole thing is moving with the wind. I feel HC won't work all that great for using Blyxa or micro sword in the center area they just don't mesh very well. It's texture and size just clashes a bit too much, you'd have half the tank going for that 'flowy' grassy hill side look, and then the main carpet body having a more stable look to it (lets face it, HC doesn't look like it's flowing).

If you can find some really small stones i'd toy around with using them around the main rock layout, this will add more of a natural feel to it and help bring out the main stone, although if nearly the entirety of the focal point area is covered with blyxa, then this should almost be unnecessary.


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## blair (Feb 8, 2009)

Glad you like the sketch. I would have to agree with X. If you are wedded to a particular plant, it wont turn out badly and if its what you want, go with it 

However, bylxa as the midground, UG as the front, and something like vivapara as the background would keep a consistent progression to the scape. Small supporting stones would be lost in the foilage unless care was taken with their placement and selection, but as you current scape doesn't have a ton of height, it might not show enough and would be uncessary. X is also right about the visual openings and positioning, so try to follow that, it will make this work well :thumbsup:

But again, if you are bent on E. Tenellus and HC, use what you wish... but as X disclosed in his article, certain plants just seem as though they are meant for certain hardscapes and compliment each other better than others.


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## Bubba_Shrimp (Jun 16, 2009)

Blair, Francis Xavier - great suggestions! Many thanks!

Guys, you also tear my heart apart!  
I was so in love with HC, BUT I didn’t even know that such plant as UG (I believe Utricularia graminifolia) exists! X's comments on flow make perfect sense. I love this plant, however, after reading about it I'm afraid it will be a bit hard for a beginner. Maybe I'm exaggerating... 

See, now I want to make my tank perfect! You’ve created a “monster”   and I thank you for this!


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

You're welcome!

UG and HC aren't really that hard to grow (about the same in difficulty really), both just need good lights and co2 and you'll do fine. However, the only thing i'd say about UG is to make sure you plant it really deep, this will make it grow in more 'flow-like', thicker, and hugging the ground more.


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## Bubba_Shrimp (Jun 16, 2009)

Ok, made the following changes:

- moved all rock a bit to the right (I think it looks crowded, no?)
- added another small rock on the left side
- changed slopes
- raised left rock a bit hire

On pictures it looks like there is plenty of space between rocks but in reality not that much.


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

Decrease the slope in the front right, the slope is too high there. Instead, use that to keep the slope in the back right higher than the front, and cover some of the rock cover in between. Create a little bit of a mound in between the rock structures. the 4th stone in there is fine as long as it maintains looking like it's attached to the left-hand stone.

Also rotate the main stone just a tad counter-clockwise so more of it's face is showing in the display, while moving back all the rocks about half an inch (towards the back pane) so you have more room in front of the middle stone for the carpet plant while maintaining the spatial distance between the rocks as they are now.

You can always increase space by adding soil to cover rock surface, although most of it should be covered by plants anyway so is largely unnecessary, and you only want to cover things at this point that will be covered by plants anyway. We've got all the major characteristics of a good Iwagumi hammered out, now it's just going to be a sequence of small adjustments until it gets "just right." So keep us posted on the adjustments you make as you make them!


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## blair (Feb 8, 2009)

Thanks Bubba! Glad to help. Its easier to critique than to produce it sometimes. Collaberation on this is really going smoothly and the product is improving. Now, to comment on your current changes:

Wow! I am actually digging that... :eek5:

Yes, it is more 'crowded'. I'd prefer to call it dense, but either way, once your plants take off it will effectively move them apart. I really think some blyxa in the middle would work wonders for the illusion of space as it fans outward from a small footprint.

X has a good plan with the slope. It will provide more depth and perspective with the slope more at the rear of the right side. Mounding soil will also add space if needed. I did this in my large tank and it significantly helped. I would have to agree that the main stone could mildly rotate to feel a bit more dominate. If the room exists, pushing it all back a margin will increase the frontal expanse. He pretty much nailed it; better than I would have. Lets see what evolves from here. Oh, and I really like the light too! Fancy setup 

This is well on its way to making a profound statement in a subtle box. Keep it up!


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

I told you not to underestimate the small support stones Blair! I learned that the hard way. 
Even when they get mostly covered by plants they still add tremendously to the impact of the scape.


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## blair (Feb 8, 2009)

You are right! This is why I consulted you  Oh, and I'm waiting for the right stones to be available to redo my tanks. When they are in I'll be looking for your help in much this same collaborative way :thumbsup:


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

I was just thinking about how your rockquest was going. It's such a PITA to get good stone. Did you keep those kettle stones? I've been trying to think of what to do with them while bored. Luckily they only cost like what $20 for all that yeah? Sorry for the little derail there bubba.


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## Bubba_Shrimp (Jun 16, 2009)

Need more help! 

Pic #1 - changes made by previous suggestions.




Pic #2 - I received a new rock and need your opinion again.



Top view of new rock.



Thanks!


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

I'm not a big fan of the "V" design like that, it strikes me as too symmetrical and too 'unnatural' so to speak. V's are kind of hard to pull off.

But here's what you can do; increase the slope under the main stone (the right stone/new stone), and then lay the old main stone horizontally, and diagonally towards the main stone, so it's going up the slope with that little crevice / enclave being near the mainstone. Then with the open space in the front between the two you could toy around with the smaller support stone being in the front middle of them, so there's space in between the 3 rocks and space in the front.


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

Ok, this is a really bad mockup (maybe someone could do a better job with graphic editing skills!), but here's the basic idea:










Alternatively if you wanted to keep the V you'd have to bring the left stone in closer in proximity to the main stone.


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## blair (Feb 8, 2009)

X is right about the V being too unnatural (at least the way you have it)... it might not be all bad... but the rock in the middle is hurting it due its symmetrical properties. Placing that stone in between the V is like screaming redundancy. Give me a little bit and I can try to make a mock-up playing off both of yours. I have to finish wet-sanding the cabinets


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## Bubba_Shrimp (Jun 16, 2009)

Agree. Kind of unnatural...
What about this? I removed old main stone as it is too wide and covers lots of ground area if setup as X suggested.

I had another rock (right). Maybe I should stick with 2 main rocks layout?


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## blair (Feb 8, 2009)

I like it... oddly reminds me of the Lion King, haha! I'll comment more on it in a few, but before I do, here are some other ideas before I saw your rescape.










This one takes the V but spaces it drastically, reducing the false feeling it otherwise gives.










This one places it VERY close together and makes it work.

Both tanks utilize the 1.6-to-1 golden rule.

I have to finish the yard, but I will get to the Pride Rock later tonight...


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## Bubba_Shrimp (Jun 16, 2009)

Wow, you are good with designs!
I didn't even suspect before that Lion King had an Iwagumi Pride Rock layout! :icon_eek:


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## blair (Feb 8, 2009)

Okay, sorry for the delay. My problem with the Pride Rock layout is that the large stone seems unstable. It would need more soil around the base to make it believable. I would also attempt to turn its right side a bit more toward the glass front pane (pivot the piece counterclockwise).

The fallen rock looks fine... its support seems more real than the actual Lion King version, so I like that.

Also, the small rocks are just lined up... very fake feeling. They don't seem to be working for you on the edge of the larger ones. Rely more on plants to soften the point of contact between the large stones and soil. The mounding of substrate around the larger left stone would also when done right create a patch of growing area between these stones. A short grassy plant between and around them would be nice to accomplish this. A lower carpet, UG or even HC could work well. Glosso is probably a great height, but I feel its leafy structure would not compliment the stones as well as the other options.

To be honest its a fun idea, but I am just not digging this scape. I feel its too open. It reveals everything to readily.


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

I'm getting the feeling it's getting worse. Given the size of the rocks in the tank, it seems like this is a 'restart' option. Though I'd like to see the other angles of the main rock. I'll post something more if anything else strikes me.

I almost want to say go back to the scape we were working on before.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Bubba_Shrimp said:


> Agree. Kind of unnatural...
> What about this? I removed old main stone as it is too wide and covers lots of ground area if setup as X suggested.
> 
> I had another rock (right). Maybe I should stick with 2 main rocks layout?


 The big rocks are too close together.


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## Bubba_Shrimp (Jun 16, 2009)

Ok, my last attempt with new stone (other side). I can always get back to the original layout but I think I like this one... After all, it's not a competition item... It's to please my eyes, right? :icon_roll

Maybe some minor adjustments with small stones and slopes?






Here is from where I will be enjoying it most of the time:


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## blair (Feb 8, 2009)

Bubba,

Try this idea out. However, it would only work well pending that the large stone can rotate with the side you have shown in your newest scape visible to the front. It has a similar texture to the others and blends better. The view I have shown was the easiest way to draw it due to the angle of the images I had to grab from, but it isn't the correct face. The stones point to the main one (well the small one is kind of neutral). This is proper in iwagumi as X demonstrated in his recent mock-up... but the "V" has become a trend from Amano. This image is more honest, but as you said, you are not entering competition and sometimes innovation wins anyways.










X and I agree that you might be best suited with E. Tenellus and Glosso for plants with this scape. Try to keep that space between the larger rocks cleared for depth... its important.

Remember, this is your tank; if you are happy with a certain layout, go for it. Only you have to look at it on a daily basis. These comments of ours are suggestions only, so don't feel wed to them.


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## kangshiang (Jun 28, 2006)

those rocks looks awesome....no matter what angle, they all looks prettty...
Hope I have some in my shrimp only tank...


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## Bubba_Shrimp (Jun 16, 2009)

Blair,

I tried the way you designed it but rocks take too much space this way 
I'll post some pics later. Still mocking around 




kangshiang said:


> those rocks looks awesome....no matter what angle, they all looks prettty...
> Hope I have some in my shrimp only tank...


I might have some leftovers


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## SPECIAL||PLANS (May 27, 2009)

you guys are stuck on the stones and your missing the key to solving the composition - the space between the stones. blair's post on 06-27-2009, 10:37 PM post #26 looked pretty good but the composition falls apart in the upper middle and lower left. then in these last posts in #38 your compensating for this by mirroring the composition across center creating this symmetrical 'V' shape. you were on the right track at the beginning, blair's tip to move your arrangement off center is a good one, then you have to work with the plants to control the space in the top middle and lower left side of the tank.


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## Bubba_Shrimp (Jun 16, 2009)

Going back to original design with a slight different left stone. What ya'll think?


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

One helpful trick to use is to try to keep the front slope levels even, this adds to the aesthetic appeal, but you're on the right track with the sloping. I like the new left stone.


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## Ugly Genius (Sep 27, 2003)

What are your plant ideas? Page one showed HC and grasses. Still going that route?

Remember to set the hardscape to accommodate not only the overall flow and plants, but maintenance, too. All the best-laid plans can go to waste if you can't trim the HC in the corner because the rock's shoved in too tight to get a good angle.

That said, I like that you're taking other's advice, but coming up with your own ideas.


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## Bubba_Shrimp (Jun 16, 2009)

Francis Xavier said:


> One helpful trick to use is to try to keep the front slope levels even, this adds to the aesthetic appeal, but you're on the right track with the sloping. I like the new left stone.


Thanks Francis!

Is this what you mean by leveling front slope?
Also, the right back slope is quite high, about 4.5". Is that ok?









Ugly Genius said:


> What are your plant ideas? Page one showed HC and grasses. Still going that route?
> 
> Remember to set the hardscape to accommodate not only the overall flow and plants, but maintenance, too. All the best-laid plans can go to waste if you can't trim the HC in the corner because the rock's shoved in too tight to get a good angle.
> 
> ...


Plants will be:

UG (front), Blyxa(between and around stones) and Eleocharis Vivipara for background. I think I will be able to access all places with different size scissors...


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

Yes, like that bubba. I would probably lessen the slope overall though on the right side, I think that would increase the visual appeal, kind of closer to what Blair's mock-up was like in substrate levels on page 2. 

There's nothing wrong about substrate that high function wise, aesthetically it just seems off to me.


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## t0p_sh0tta (Jan 24, 2008)

I like this layout the best, and also agree with decreasing the slope on the right side. Nothing drastic, but it's just a bit too much for me.


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## blair (Feb 8, 2009)

Lookin' good Bubba! Sorry I was off on a long weekend trip to Northern Michigan for a few bottles of wine and some amazing food  

I really like what I see. The new left stone is great. The slight tilt is really a nice contrast to that of the right piece. The increased size is also helping the balance. I would agree that the slope is a bit extreme on the right side. That rock appears to be near the surface (within half an inch perhaps?). I'd suggest 3"-3.5". Slopes have a tendency to settle over time anyways...


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

I think blyxa will really kill the layout if you use it inbetween and around the stones. Blyxa can get quiet tall and bushy. I would use UG around and inbetween the rock personally. Just a suggestion.

Craig


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## Bubba_Shrimp (Jun 16, 2009)

Thanks guys for your suggestions! I will decrease the slope a bit.

About Blyxa - ouch. Yeah, it could grow up to 15cm which might reach the top... Maybe just a few bushes behind the stones and trim of the side shoots from big plant and replant when they grow while removing big plant? Or maybe go with E. tenellus behind a from sides?

Also background... I have 5-6" in there and not sure if vivipara be a sufficient plant for the background as it could grow up to 60cm... of course regular trimming but keeping vivipara at only 5" tall might not look good. Any suggestions/experience?


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## blair (Feb 8, 2009)

Craig - You make a valid point. Additionally, I am fearful of the color of blyxa if it develops that rust tinge on the blades. It might distract a bit...


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## Aglaw91 (Mar 22, 2009)

I too like No. 2 better.


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## mgdmirage (Mar 30, 2009)

Although not very helpful, but i think all your scapes looked great in their own right! I do however like the last one the best so far though.


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## Bubba_Shrimp (Jun 16, 2009)

Thanks to everybody for the help and comments! My plants are coming next week so I will be having some fun 

Will post more pics ater that.


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

I like this one the best


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