# Steps



## Colorblizzle (Dec 27, 2012)

I'm in the process of setting up my tank right now it's just water filter substrate and some driftwood. My kids want me to add fish but I explained to them that I gotta add plants first and before I can add plants I gotta buy frets. They didn't care they just want the fish in lol. So my question is do I have to have the ferts in hand or can I put in plants then wait a week or 2 for my ferts? And also before I add fish can I just add them or do I need to cycle the tank? I've read whereas the plants kinda cycle the tank enough for fish to he introduced? My GF won't allow pure ammonia in my house because of the kids so I have to do the fish-in cycle otherwise. Much advice needed. Thank you


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## dmcrx7 (May 14, 2012)

*Long time fish cycle believer*

Just a noob here, but I am a long time user of the fish cycle. I tried fishless with plants the last time around and am now a firm believer. If your GF is concerned about ammonia around the kids, I would urge you to consider diluting it before you bring it home. That may help dispel her concern. Just make sure you get the right stuff. Give it a shake and look for bubbles. There should be none. Local hardware store is your best bet.The ammonia gives your plants a huge kick start. I still don't use ferts in that tank, and it has been cycled for a couple months.


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## Colorblizzle (Dec 27, 2012)

She read a few articles and learned firsthand from her cousin that ammonia can cause mental retardation and she told me under no circumstances am I allowed to have it in the house. She told me putting fish in is the only way I'm allowed. I don't mind I just don't like potentially risking the lives of fish.


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## Colorblizzle (Dec 27, 2012)

She's very protective lol. We don't even have any knives in the house plastic butter knifes only


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## ony (Apr 1, 2011)

You might want to point out to her that there will be ammonia in the tank anyway if your just going to throw fish in without cycling it first : /

edit: how do you cook with no knives?


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## Colorblizzle (Dec 27, 2012)

I have 2 other fish tanks going she knows there's ammonia in there from the fish she just doesn't want a bottle of ammonia around. Even tho I keep all of my supplies under lock and key


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

Well lets hold everything up here. 

You can't add any fish or inverts until you complete a nitrogen cycle. 

Some people say you can do a fish in cycle, but that's fish murder. Sorry.

Nitrogen cycles can be completed with plants. You dose either ammonia or fish flakes daily, and see if your ammonia drops by the end of the day. It is simple. It takes time, but if you don't take your time and do things right, you'll regret it later on.


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## Colorblizzle (Dec 27, 2012)

I can try the fish flakes method. Gotta get some plants soon I think lol. Need to get a heater yet as well. And we use forks to cut everything lol


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Yes, both plants and bacterial biofilters will consume fish waste, and keep it from building up. But it's best to have *both* functioning together, each capable of taking up the slack from the other.

With plants alone, depending on how many fish there are, they may not be capable of consuming 100% of fish waste. There may be too few plants for the number of fish. Even if there's technically enough plants, if they're not healthy they won't be effective consumers of fish waste, which can happen if:

1) They're lacking nutrients which the fish produce in insufficient quantities.  Typically at least potassium, plus iron and other traces. These must be provided from ferts, or a rich substrate.
2) They're not getting enough light. Or too much light. Or too little carbon for the amount of light.
3) They're in transplant shock from having just been added, from a source with major differences in tank parameters.
4) Or any number of other things.

It can be done, but to guarantee success, it takes a certain amount of experience on behalf of the hobbyist. Since you don't yet have ferts, I think I can safely assume you don't yet have that level of experience, and can't recommend that method. Plants will help, but don't rely on them alone.

Though I've never done it, I hear a fishless cycle can be accomplished with nothing more than fish food. Add the amount you expect to feed daily. Monitor the progress of the cycle with your test kits as normal, and when complete, add the fish. If you've underestimated the amount of food, increase it only *gradually*, so that you don't include a noticeable mini-cycle. This probably means you can't let your children feed, or perhaps even have access to, the fish food without supervision! They'll probably want to "fatten up" the new fish, which could be disastrous.

If you can move a small portion of filter media from one of your established tanks to the new tank, it will greatly speed up the cycle.


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## Knotyoureality (Aug 3, 2012)

If you can switch some filter material over from your established tanks along with the plants, you'll be able to establish beneficial bacteria pretty quickly. 

However, if you're doing fish-in, you'll need to build the bio-load VERY slowly and commit to frequent water changes until everything is up and running. 

Last spring my main tank back wall shattered, leaving me needing to set up and start transferring my fish out of temporary holding pretty quickly. The new substrate got a handful of the old seeded into it and I pulled one of my eheim filter pads to shove into the HOB filters on the new tank as well as transferring over a few bits of driftwood I'd been able to keep soaking. 

Bought a trio of mollies to start things off then very gradually moved fish from my backup tanks into the new one. We're talking a couple of inches of fish every 3-4 days as I was filling in with more plants and keeping up 20% daily water changes.


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## Colorblizzle (Dec 27, 2012)

I don't have any used media that will fit in my filter. Other than that I'm planning on an otocinclus and 12 celestial pearl danios. And later if my tank can hold more fish then a few kuhli loaches. Other than that my lighting will produce roughly 30-40 PAR. And I don't have the ferts yet but I know what I'm getting. It's a money issue gotta buy everything overtime I only set the tank up already because my 5 year old son begged me. It's in his room but they will nvr feed unsupervised. The ferts I'm adding are seachem equilibrium, potassium nitrate, and mono potassium phosphate


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## Colorblizzle (Dec 27, 2012)

I'm sure ill need a few water changes to get things going while I'm experimenting with feet dosage but when everything's balanced I'm not planning on ever doing water changes. That's the reason I opted to do this style of tank. Easiest possible maintenance. Considering I enjoy pruning so I don't consider that tedious


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## Knotyoureality (Aug 3, 2012)

I typically sacrifice a filter pad and just cut it up to fit pieces into the new filter, but you can also just toss the media directly into the tank and remove it later on. 

Can't go along with you on the no water changes deal. There's ways to greatly minimize 'em but a closed system like that needs more than just regular top offs to be healthy long-term.


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## Colorblizzle (Dec 27, 2012)

http://www.sudeepmandal.com/hobbies/planted-aquarium/low-tech-planted-tank-guide/

This link is to the method I'm trying. It's an article written based upon a bunch of articles written by Tom Barr. It calls for NEVER doing water changes only to do top offs when needed.


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

There are a lot of checks on the list before you can get to a no water change tank.

People tend to only see what they want to read. But you'll need heaps of plants, all that jazz before you can get to a comfortable point.


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## Colorblizzle (Dec 27, 2012)

No I read the whole thing. When I do buy plants I plan on buying a lot probably a good 15+ and then after I add fish and check my parameters I understand if I read nitrates I need more plants cuz they can't handle all of them and if I don't read nitrates add more fish until I feel comfortable everything's balanced. That's what I read when I read that tho everybody reads everything differently


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

You should have a set stocking of fish which in my opinion should be under stocked. Then add plants depending on your goal. 

You can't easily add or subtract fish. 

Did you already say the dimensions and gallons of said tank?


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

^+1

It isn't just about the water quality. Fish need oxygen and the size of the surface of the tank determines that. No matter how many plants are in the tank that stays the same.


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## Colorblizzle (Dec 27, 2012)

I'm not sure if I said the dimensions but its just a standard 10g since its my 1st planted tank I figured I'd start small and I happened to have an extra 10g laying around. As far as fish stocking goes I plan on 1 otocinclus affinis and anywhere from 6-12 celestial pearl danios. And if there's room for further stocking I'd like to add kuhli loaches but not sure. Somebody else suggested cherry red shrimp.


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## Colorblizzle (Dec 27, 2012)

There will be a little gas exchange from the filter output but if there's enough plants won't they create enough oxygen for the fish?


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## PaulG (Oct 10, 2010)

Colorblizzle said:


> She read a few articles and learned firsthand from her cousin that ammonia can cause mental retardation and she told me under no circumstances am I allowed to have it in the house. She told me putting fish in is the only way I'm allowed. I don't mind I just don't like potentially risking the lives of fish.


Do you have to wee in the garden? 

But seriously, I do understand the concerns about ammonia, it's nasty stuff. Do you know how people used to cycle their tanks in days gone by? Wee in it. It's erm....an idea right?


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## Colorblizzle (Dec 27, 2012)

Lol


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Colorblizzle said:


> There will be a little gas exchange from the filter output but if there's enough plants won't they create enough oxygen for the fish?


During lights-on, sure. During lights-out, plants consume oxygen rather than producing it.


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## Colorblizzle (Dec 27, 2012)

Hmm ok I didn't really take that into consideration what can be done about that other than adding an airstones? I have that in my other tanks but wanna keep this tank as simple as possible. Surface agitation should release gases and bring O2 into the water tho right? So maybe if I got a very small powerhead?


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

dmcrx7 said:


> Just a noob here, but I am a long time user of the fish cycle. I tried fishless with plants the last time around and am now a firm believer. If your GF is concerned about ammonia around the kids, I would urge you to consider diluting it before you bring it home. That may help dispel her concern. Just make sure you get the right stuff. Give it a shake and look for bubbles. There should be none. Local hardware store is your best bet.The ammonia gives your plants a huge kick start. I still don't use ferts in that tank, and it has been cycled for a couple months.


When I started my 10g, I was talking with a few people who practically forced me to use the Plant Cycling Method. It was very scary, but I did it, and it worked. If you plant medium to packed fast-growing plants, you can wait a few days to make sure and put in a small number of fish and what happens is also known as "The Silent Cycle." The plants take care of the ammonia and the Nitrogen Cycle cycles in the background.

This is a great thread! So many things that interest me.


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## angelsword (May 16, 2009)

Your girlfriend sounds like a great mom! It's awesome that you respect her enough to go by her rules with the kids.


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## Colorblizzle (Dec 27, 2012)

Thank you! And she is! A little overprotective at times but I've learned I never come between a lioness and her cubs lol. I will try the silent cycle as you call it. Gonna be a bit tho gotta wait for taxes, holidays killed my credit card lol


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

Can I give you a few tips? If you're using gravel, get pea-sized grave, like 1-3 mm, so the plants can easily get their roots in. But, a lot of people prefer sand, play sand or black sand, which is preferred. Play sand is light-colored. Byron has experience with this stuff. You may want to ask him if there is a good book on planted tanks. Also, Google.

Make sure your lights are bright enough, but not too bright. I definitely like to see a shadow on the substrate.

Stock fish lightly. I worried about there being enough plants to do their job, but I've seen lots of tanks planted very sparsely.

- End Of Brain Dump -


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## Colorblizzle (Dec 27, 2012)

I'm using black flourite sand. And for lights it's only 10w but I'm using the finnex fugeray LED light fixture. Should give me 30-40 PAR. I will stick fish lightly at first. And once I have a jungle and I see that the nitrates are building ill stop adding fish. I keep changing my mind on what I want tho first I wanted celestial pearl danios, then I wanted neon tetras, then I wanted cardinal tetras, then tequila sunrise guppies Nd now I'm thinking glo-fish. Opinions? I will for sure have an otocinclus in there tho regardless.


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## Colorblizzle (Dec 27, 2012)

And djAngo keep the tips coming. Everyone else too this is my first planted so my ears are WIDE OPEN


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## Airstreamin (Dec 31, 2012)

Colorblizzle said:


> And djAngo keep the tips coming. Everyone else too this is my first planted so my ears are WIDE OPEN


Make sure there's water in the tank before adding fish! lol j/k

Seriously though, if you're afraid (or gf in this case) of ammonia in the house, just pee in your tank. Yes I'm being serious, how you think most of us aquaponics / veg gardeners get our compost cycles started? 

Regardless, as long as you take it slow and ease into the cycle you can go either route. Personally I prefer the fishless cycle as there's no point in a needless death, but on the other hand, get yourself a hardy fish or 2, let them cycle the tank and then sell them back to the LFS and get what you really want. That's what I did with my last tank, worked great.

Also, you stated you're running LEDs, and while PAR rating is important, so is wattage, with that low of a wattage you'll want to make sure you're not using plants that are heavy light usage plants as they won't thrive very well.


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## Colorblizzle (Dec 27, 2012)

I'd have to stand on the dresser to pee in the tank so ill just skip that step  but yeah I know wattage is important. I decided on this fixture after running all my options and coming up with nothing practical. T8 best I could do was 15w and couldn't find PAR ratings. T5 couldn't find a single tube fixture and don't wanna do a dual because with that much light I will NEED CO2 and I don't want to use it. Only other option was CFL and I don't want to use screw in bulbs. From what I hear that's what most people do in these smaller tanks but I can't bring myself to using them. Seems TOO low-tech lol. But idk which plants I'm using yet. Royals, ludwigia chain sword are my only definite choices


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## Airstreamin (Dec 31, 2012)

See, you got this, what you need us for? :hihi:


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## Colorblizzle (Dec 27, 2012)

Lol are those plants I named low light?


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## amberoze (May 22, 2012)

Look for a book called ecology of the planted aquarium by Diana walstad. Tells you everything. But basically, if you plant heavily enough with fast growing plants from the start, you can add fish within minutes. And it's completely safe.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## Colorblizzle (Dec 27, 2012)

I have looked for that book and have read a lot of articles about her method and it seems for the most part that's what I'm aiming at but that book is $60 at the cheapest I've found and none of my library's carry it. And that's how I plan to stock I just hope my lighting will be adequate because like I said a few posts up options are limited


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## Airstreamin (Dec 31, 2012)

From my understanding, your most common low-tech plants would be Java ferns / moss and Anubias varieties, Cryptocoryne, green temple, Sagittaria, Vallisneria, etc.

A lot of the sword variety plants generally require more to the medium spectrum of lighting.

Now keep in mind, this doesn't mean you "can't" grow them successfully in a low-light / low-tech setup, it just generally means you will get a slower growth rate and will have to ensure proper nutrients, water quality, etc.


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## Colorblizzle (Dec 27, 2012)

Ok thanks. I want slow steady growth and I will be fertilizing so hopefully all goes well


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

amberoze said:


> Look for a book called ecology of the planted aquarium by Diana walstad. Tells you everything. But basically, if you plant heavily enough with fast growing plants from the start, you can add fish within minutes. And it's completely safe.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


Try at Amazon - that's where I bought mine. I planted my 10 gallon heavily with fast-growing plants relying on stem plants and bought seven Pristella Tetras. I think you have found a good place for answers here.


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## Colorblizzle (Dec 27, 2012)

Cheapest I saw it on amazon was $65


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

Yep, you're right. I don't know how that happened. It's a good coffee table book so maybe it's the season.


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## Colorblizzle (Dec 27, 2012)

Maybe. Ill keep looking on occasion tho. I do want that book


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

A YouTube video about Walstad's method.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...FFIJFAYEjOJ7C8pGEDhjg&bvm=bv.1357316858,d.cWE


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