# Fish TB (not for the faint of heart)



## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

As far as I know the only thing to do is a complete tear down, bleach everything and throw everything away. There was a post over at ultimatebettas.com about fish TB and that was the only suggestion. The user was even sellign the tank as there is no way to completely remove the risk by what I understood. I will go and try to find the link to that thread it was pretty indepth with lab testing and all.

Craig


----------



## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

Here is one link, I belive there was more I just need to go find it.

Craig


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

Thanks craig, l feared l had to resort to doing that. l'm going to have to bleach my 48g cause l put the heater from my 40g into it so that sucks...


----------



## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

http://www.ultimatebettas.com/index.php?showtopic=49674


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

thanks again craig. i'm so bummed out man l really want nothing to do with my fish now that i have no clue as which have it and which don't, and that's not including the driftwood and plants. The plan was to originally bleach everything or for a bit,but lt's risky and it might not work. l just don't want to have the risk of having it regrow/come back : /


----------



## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Spraying Metracide or excel onto an empty tank, reg, etc would kill it. In combination with bleach, you'd be "pretty" safe. 

Nasty stuff, though. 

Metracide (excel is same ingredient) is a cold sterilizer for hospitals.


----------



## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

!shadow! said:


> thanks again craig. i'm so bummed out man l really want nothing to do with my fish now that i have no clue as which have it and which don't, and that's not including the driftwood and plants. The plan was to originally bleach everything or for a bit,but lt's risky and it might not work. l just don't want to have the risk of having it regrow/come back : /


Any way to setup a grow out tank for stictly your plants? put a few clippings of everythign in there to grow out and keep the CO2 high, dose excel and ferts heavily. Worse comes to worse you have to cull out hte fish and you can super bleach everything for a week then 5x's dose prime to clear the bleach.



over_stocked said:


> Spraying Metracide or excel onto an empty tank, reg, etc would kill it. In combination with bleach, you'd be "pretty" safe.
> 
> Nasty stuff, though.
> 
> Metracide (excel is same ingredient) is a cold sterilizer for hospitals.


Good advise! I would watch each tank and get seperate equipment, nets, etc for them. Maybe take out the equipment like the heaters and removable stuff and start bleaching it so you can try to be ahead of the game.

Criag


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

well i'm planning on selling the 40 so i'm not worried about that i'm going to have to sterilize the complete tank... l really don't want to deal with the hassle of getting another quarantine tank then floating them and risking that tank get infected to and be paranoid about having to touch it but at the same time l don't want to be cold because l love my fish and have kept them for a while and would hate to just see them die off. meanwhile on my 48g l plan on just draining the water and re-filling it with new tap water and adding lots of bleach to it and letting the filter run for a while. and hopefully it kills it as l would hate to get rid of the set-up as it has been costly on me.


----------



## Franzi (Dec 7, 2009)

Craigthor said:


> The user was even sellign the tank as there is no way to completely remove the risk by what I understood. Craig


HAHA! sucks for the new and unsuspecting owner of that tank. "Honey, what's this strange growth on my arms?"

Seriously though, I think a strong bleach mix should kill everything.


----------



## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

!shadow! said:


> well i'm planning on selling the 40 so i'm not worried about that i'm going to have to sterilize the complete tank... l really don't want to deal with the hassle of getting another quarantine tank then floating them and risking that tank get infected to and be paranoid about having to touch it but at the same time l don't want to be cold because l love my fish and have kept them for a while and would hate to just see them die off. meanwhile on my 48g l plan on just draining the water and re-filling it with new tap water and adding lots of bleach to it and letting the filter run for a while. and hopefully it kills it as l would hate to get rid of the set-up as it has been costly on me.


 
Can you drain and then spray it down with Excel before you refill? Then bleach the crap out of it, that should cover you on almost full spectrum.

Craig


----------



## PRSRocker3390 (Apr 20, 2009)

This is scary. How common is fish TB and how do you know for sure that is it? Can it be confused with other diseases? Makes me scared to stick my hand in my fish tanks now.:icon_eek: Where does it stem from? Can your existing fish just get it out of nowhere?


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

i'm going to try that craig. Now l feel kinda stupid for letting the g3 run since now there is a chance there might be some in the filter. l did some reading and i'll follow your advice on spraying it with excel, then when l top it off i'll add lots of bleach and alcohol added then leave that for like a couple of days then drain it and hopefully it'll take care of that. l got that from this link:

http://www.petfish.net/kb/entry/170/

"Treatment of fish is 40grams of streptomycin and isoniazid. Treatment can be increased by adding streptomycin to the fishes food. If you suspect your fish may have had TB and has died and you want to disinfect you may want to try these methods. Mycobacterium sp. are more difficult to kill than most bacteria because they have a very thick waxy outer coat. This waxy coat, plus the clumping that occurs in some strains, make them a bit tougher to penetrate with common disinfectants. 65-90% alcohol increases the likelihood of killing it, but, as with chlorine, organics will diminish this response. Recommended use of bleach for initial reduction in organics will kill off most other pathogens, including some of the weaker strains of myco. However, it is also recommend following up with a 65-90% soak/spray with alcohol (after neutralization of chlorine and drying). Increased contact time will increase likelihood of kill, so, if possible, try wiping down and/or soaking materials for 15-30 minutes, with alcohol."


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

So far the best links i've found on fish TB are these....

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/vm055

i'm currently reading this one at the moment
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Lawler_Mycobacterium_fish_tuberculosis_FAQ.html

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Lawler_Tank_Safety.html

and this is for the people who don't like to do alot of reading and get down to the point and read the symptoms..
http://www.fishdeals.com/fish_diseases/curved_spine/ 
i found this link ^^ the easiest to discover the symptoms

l kinda wish l had bought a UV sterilizer for my tanks now..
i found a good quote for those of you who are skeptical about uv's
http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/00388mycoarticle.pdf
from ^^ link :UV light is highly effective for killing all microbes, including mycobacteria (LeChevallier 2004). A UV sterilizing filter only kills the microbes that are suspended in the water. It does not harm the nitrifying bacteria essential to biological filtration, because they (like many other bacteria) live attached to filter media and other tank surfaces


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

Mycobacterium species are resistant to alkali;
acidity * if microenvironment is maintained at about pH 3,
organisms begin to die off, the longer it is kept there the
greater the die off; used in food preservation techniques

l guess i better turn up my co2  how does 50bps sound? :icon_evil


----------



## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

!shadow! said:


> Mycobacterium species are resistant to alkali;
> acidity * if microenvironment is maintained at about pH 3,
> organisms begin to die off, the longer it is kept there the
> greater the die off; used in food preservation techniques
> ...


That will also cure you of any snail infestations as well! :icon_twis


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

LOOOL i'm going to try to take a picture of another one of my suspected infected fishes. i'll post it up in a sec to show you guys for future reference.


----------



## houstonhobby (Dec 12, 2008)

I had fish TB in my 120 a long time ago and I got rid of it by running a UV steralizer 24 hours a day and culling fish that were infected before they could pass it on. It took months for it to run its course but eventually the tank was free of the disease for years after that.

I don't think that TB can live for a long time (months) without a host, and it is not very infectious (mostly transmitted by fish eating their dead companions).


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

houstonhobby said:


> I had fish TB in my 120 a long time ago and I got rid of it by running a UV steralizer 24 hours a day and culling fish that were infected before they could pass it on. It took months for it to run its course but eventually the tank was free of the disease for years after that.
> 
> I don't think that TB can live for a long time (months) without a host, and it is not very infectious (mostly transmitted by fish eating their dead companions).



l gotta give it to you, you got nerves of steel still messing around that 120 and not tearing it down unlike me. l gotta get me a UV sterilizer asap.. and you said months?? You sure do have more patience than me


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

"Mycobacteria are resistant to many commonly used bactericidal agents at standard dosage rates, including chlorine bleach and quaternary ammonium compounds. As much as 10,000 ppm chlorine has been reported necessary to kill mycobacteria. Mycobacteria are sensitive to 60-85% alcohol. In addition, there are special products marketed specifically to decontaminate mycobacteria-infected surfaces. However, if these are used, efforts must be made to remove all residues of disinfectant."

That's alot of ppm


----------



## funkyfish (Mar 16, 2009)

That's kinda scary, especially when I read a part about curved spine. 
Some of my fry hatched and had a curved spine but I think those 2 or 3 fry just were a little deformed which happens, thats why I want to get some more fish to keep the gene pool fresh. I didn't bother to keep them since I didn't think they would live too long by being mostly at the bottom of the tank... Should I worry? All my fish is in great shape and health *knocks on wood*


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

yea very scary, one of the things l hate about the hobby is that you deal with all these sort of chemicals you know little about and some people don't know any of the side effect or long term effect you just go by what the bottle says. That's why l made it a habit of checking my fish every day or 2 to see how their behaving and if their showing any signs of illness or disease. Well usually when one of my fishes is seen swimming at the bottom l check if it's just that or scraping or flashing against object or gravel(sometimes known as ich if white spots develop).Some of my past experiences with fish swimming at the bottom is they tend to swim lethargically and are shy and hide below dark spots so just keep an eye out for that. l think the best thing you can do for your fish are water changes as they help with not only keeping a sense of balance in terms of nitrates,ammonia, excess nutrients(if you're doing the EI method of fert dozing) and so forth. Stress plays a big role in whether your fish stay healthy or sub-cum to illnesses. To conclude if you basically check up on your fish it'll really help you out in the long run from a disease spreading more and you'll be able to catch it on in it's early stages and hopefully cure it in time before it gets any worse,which is very difficult according to what type of illness(such as tb) it is and sometimes is too late. You don't want to end up like me where l dismissed it as something small and underestimated it until l did some research and was something waay over my head. Hope that helps.


----------



## PRSRocker3390 (Apr 20, 2009)

I figured I would share this article by Diana Walstad. http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/00388mycoarticle.pdf

I recently bought 3 more rasboras and a dwarf gourami for my 75. After a week the gourami wasn't eating, had an ulceration, and was lethargic. Two of the 3 new rasboras died on the same day after i noticed the gourami was sick. The rasboras had no symptoms, just pale. Never colored up since they came home unlike the 3rd one who is colored up now and swimming healthy. I scooped them out immediately and iso'd the gourami. The gourami died about a week ago. I recently drained the 5.5, not thinking and reused the filter and flourite in a new 10 gallon. The other rasbora is fine and schooling in the 75 still with the 8 other healthy rasboras, and the other fish(2 rams,8 cardinals, 3 otos) are all fine. My gourami had exactly what that fish has in that first pic in the article I posted. Did it have TB? My hands were constantly in contact with that water and I reused that substrate. I am paranoid right now, what should I do????? 

Sorry but this thread has shed some light on something I ignored.


----------



## funkyfish (Mar 16, 2009)

PRSRocker3390 said:


> I figured I would share this article by Diana Walstad. http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/00388mycoarticle.pdf
> 
> I recently bought 3 more rasboras and a dwarf gourami for my 75. After a week the gourami wasn't eating, had an ulceration, and was lethargic. Two of the 3 new rasboras died on the same day after i noticed the gourami was sick. The rasboras had no symptoms, just pale. Never colored up since they came home unlike the 3rd one who is colored up now and swimming healthy. I scooped them out immediately and iso'd the gourami. The gourami died about a week ago. I recently drained the 5.5, not thinking and reused the filter and flourite in a new 10 gallon. The other rasbora is fine and schooling in the 75 still with the 8 other healthy rasboras, and the other fish(2 rams,8 cardinals, 3 otos) are all fine. My gourami had exactly what that fish has in that first pic in the article I posted. Did it have TB? My hands were constantly in contact with that water and I reused that substrate. I am paranoid right now, what should I do?????
> 
> Sorry but this thread has shed some light on something I ignored.


First I would not get paranoid. Then watch your fish closely and do regular water changes maybe invest in UV sterilizer, wash your hands very good with some antibacterial soap after every contact with aquarium water. That's my 2 cents :icon_smil


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

PRSRocker3390 said:


> I figured I would share this article by Diana Walstad. http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/00388mycoarticle.pdf
> 
> I recently bought 3 more rasboras and a dwarf gourami for my 75. After a week the gourami wasn't eating, had an ulceration, and was lethargic. Two of the 3 new rasboras died on the same day after i noticed the gourami was sick. The rasboras had no symptoms, just pale. Never colored up since they came home unlike the 3rd one who is colored up now and swimming healthy. I scooped them out immediately and iso'd the gourami. The gourami died about a week ago. I recently drained the 5.5, not thinking and reused the filter and flourite in a new 10 gallon. The other rasbora is fine and schooling in the 75 still with the 8 other healthy rasboras, and the other fish(2 rams,8 cardinals, 3 otos) are all fine. My gourami had exactly what that fish has in that first pic in the article I posted. Did it have TB? My hands were constantly in contact with that water and I reused that substrate. I am paranoid right now, what should I do?????
> 
> Sorry but this thread has shed some light on something I ignored.


Don't worry i'm glad l posted it, l didn't want people to be clueless about what was going on if they came across this sort of problem. According to the articles i've read it can be caught if 1. you have a open wound such as a papercut or scratch,ect... 2 siphon with your mouth and some other ones l can't remember. l wouldn't have re-used the substrate but that's just me. lf you did l would of bleached the crap out of it after some spraying of excel(from what over_stocked said it sterilizes it). l think some symptoms are if you have bumps after 2-3 weeks then you might want to talk to a dematologist since from what i've read have more experience with dealing with these sort of cases. Hopefully that helps man oh and don't forget to use gloves when sticking your hand in


----------



## PRSRocker3390 (Apr 20, 2009)

Ah great, my hands always seem to have little cuts on them from work.....Well do you think my fish death was related to fish tb? Or something else? What should I do with my 5.5 thats empty if so? My 10 gallon that is full? My filters? Is my 75 going to be fine since that was the original location of the fish? I heard bleach doesn't work. 

this one site says to use Calcium Hypochlorite http://www.petbrags.com/profiles/blogs/fish-tuberculosis-if-you-keep


----------



## PRSRocker3390 (Apr 20, 2009)

I guess tomorrow, I will just bleach my 5.5 and 10 gallon....I am not taking down my 75 though...All the fish seem fine in there and that tank is way too established and healthy to mess with. As far as the filters and flourite in my 5.5 and 10 gallon..can I bleach flourite and still reuse it or just toss it. How about my one HOB filter and my Zoomed 501....Just bleach all of that stuff too? What about the ceramic pieces? Can they be bleached?


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

wow l copied and pasted what l was about to reply and lost it lol it was like 2 solid paragraphs, gotta love that... give me a second i'll post what l was gonna say in a bit


----------



## stpeteplanter (Dec 30, 2009)

Nasty stuff Shadow. How important is the tank to you? I'd cut your losses and toss it if I where you.

edit; I have an Oto that I'm pretty sure had fish TB at one point, but he came out of it. He showed all the symptoms about two months ago, is perfectly fine today. You figure he's stil a carrier? Maybe I should cull him from the herd, you know, for the greater good.


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

PRSRocker3390 said:


> Ah great, my hands always seem to have little cuts on them from work.....Well do you think my fish death was related to fish tb? Or something else? What should I do with my 5.5 thats empty if so? My 10 gallon that is full? My filters? Is my 75 going to be fine since that was the original location of the fish? I heard bleach doesn't work.
> 
> this one site says to use Calcium Hypochlorite http://www.petbrags.com/profiles/blogs/fish-tuberculosis-if-you-keep


me personally going from what i've read i'd nuke everything as it's distressing knowing you can't deal with your aquarium without protection all the time. to address your question about your fish l would like to say it was tb due to the description you gave me but there are like 10 other more symptoms that explain if you have it or not such as an S shaped spine which is a common one(my fish had it before he passed away along with ulcers). lf you read this link it'd better explain to you what's going on since lt's more specific and has alot more information than l do since l just figured out what it was a couple of days ago and l am still learning more about it. lf l were you i'd do some re-search of my own and not trust my word 100% because people aren't perfect. l filled my tank up with water and added some bleach and some alcohol ( i know what your thinking "oh he's just adding a bunch of crap to the water until it kills it" yes l have the lets just dump crap in the tank until it's fixed syndrome ). and letting it sit overnight while it runs through the filter and hopefully cleans the insides out real good. tomorrow i'll drain it all out and then spray from excel(over_stocked told me that it sterilizes and hospitals use it so i'm taking his word for it) only 1 way to find out and that is to try it out right? with like a spray bottle on the gravel, insides of the filter and glass and then bleach it right after that and hopefully that does the trick. just don't forget to wear gloves if you try my approach.



PRSRocker3390 said:


> I guess tomorrow, I will just bleach my 5.5 and 10 gallon....I am not taking down my 75 though...All the fish seem fine in there and that tank is way too established and healthy to mess with. As far as the filters and flourite in my 5.5 and 10 gallon..can I bleach flourite and still reuse it or just toss it. How about my one HOB filter and my Zoomed 501....Just bleach all of that stuff too? What about the ceramic pieces? Can they be bleached?


i'd go ahead and try what l described above and bleach the florite and re-use it after just make sure to use a water conditioner such as prime afterward. l hope your 75g is fine and l understand that you don't want to take it down. lf it ain't broke don't fix it right? l would like to say fill a bucket with bleach and open up the filters so it gets filled all inside and let it sit overnight just to be sure just make sure you use gloves because bleach is hard on the skin and the smell doesn't help as well. About the ceramic pieces l'm not 100% if they can be bleached but l'm pretty sure google could help you out on that better than l could since l don't have that much experience with ceramic.


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

stpeteplanter said:


> Nasty stuff Shadow. How important is the tank to you? I'd cut your losses and toss it if I where you.
> 
> edit; I have an Oto that I'm pretty sure had fish TB at one point, but he came out of it. He showed all the symptoms about two months ago, is perfectly fine today. You figure he's stil a carrier? Maybe I should cull him from the herd, you know, for the greater good.


yea very nasty stuff. l'm getting rid of my 40g so that's not affecting me at all, after all that was the plan from the beginning. l can't sell my 48g l just bought it and it's been my life-long dream to get a rimless tank and i'm not gonna let some TB scare me even if it's contagious. l believe if i respect the illness and treat it with caution l'll be fine *knocks on wood*. l'm going to make sure l get it all multiple times. l've always liked doing my re-search and staying 1 step ahead of the game and this isn't no exception. l figure since l only got gravel and a stump lt won't kill me nuking both out 100% plus the glass really good. l've read that it's usually more fatal to the people who are already have a weak immune system or already have a pre-existing illness like HIV, or diabetes and so forth but l am clean and well l'm young and my immune system is still strong and depending on which strand it is will sometimes go away since the bacteria can't live in 98degrees (our normal body temperature). About your oto, it depends how much you love your fish, if you want to risk letting him heal then by all means go for it. Me personally l'd never chance it and would quarantine him since sometimes TB has a way of coming back according to the conditions provided. Plus you might want to take into account how much money you spent overall on the fish and if your willing to take the risk. Just make sure he's 100% healthy l would hate to have your fish catch it from the oto like mines. A wise quote comes to mind ..."The smart man learns from his mistakes, the wise man learns from others" Just something to think about  Gl with your tank.


----------



## stpeteplanter (Dec 30, 2009)

!shadow! said:


> yea very nasty stuff. l'm getting rid of my 40g so that's not affecting me at all, after all that was the plan from the beginning. l can't sell my 48g l just bought it and it's been my life-long dream to get a rimless tank and i'm not gonna let some TB scare me even if it's contagious. l believe if i respect the illness and treat it with caution l'll be fine *knocks on wood*. l'm going to make sure l get it all multiple times. l've always liked doing my re-search and staying 1 step ahead of the game and this isn't no exception. l figure since l only got gravel and a stump lt won't kill me nuking both out 100% plus the glass really good. l've read that it's usually more fatal to the people who are already have a weak immune system or already have a pre-existing illness like HIV, or diabetes and so forth but l am clean and well l'm young and my immune system is still strong and depending on which strand it is will sometimes go away since the bacteria can't live in 98degrees (our normal body temperature). About your oto, it depends how much you love your fish, if you want to risk letting him heal then by all means go for it. Me personally l'd never chance it and would quarantine him since sometimes TB has a way of coming back according to the conditions provided. Plus you might want to take into account how much money you spent overall on the fish and if your willing to take the risk. Just make sure he's 100% healthy l would hate to have your fish catch it from the oto like mines. A wise quote comes to mind ..."The smart man learns from his mistakes, the wise man learns from others" Just something to think about  Gl with your tank.



Haha, if it attacks the weak I'm in the clear, I've never even had antibiotics so I have all my microbiota/microflora intact . The oto is perfectly fine today, he no longer displays any symptoms of fish TB what-so-ever, what I'm wondering is if he can 'host' the disease and pass it off to others. I have no problem culling him at all, he is just a fish, but at the same time I respect life and don't want to take it for no reason, jah know?


----------



## PRSRocker3390 (Apr 20, 2009)

Does anybody actually know someone that became sick from fish tb and resources as to what happen? I just never heard of anybody I know getting it. Now that I think about it, I've worked at a petsmart for three years removing tons of dead fish with disease and like symptoms and my hands we're constantly in the tanks. Thank god I never got anything from that. If anyone knows of a case personally, please share with us. This thread is very informative shadow, and we can all benefit to learn as much as we can.


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

l totally respect that as l too am the same way. l did not create life nor do l have the power to take it away(technically l could but rather not and let nature run it's course but there are exceptions). l think tb can live inside the host for a while and then spread but l'm 75% sure l would send you a link to where i found it written by a dr. but l re-searched like about 10 links so re-finding it would be a problem


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

PRSRocker3390 said:


> Does anybody actually know someone that became sick from fish tb and resources as to what happen? I just never heard of anybody I know getting it. Now that I think about it, I've worked at a petsmart for three years removing tons of dead fish with disease and like symptoms and my hands we're constantly in the tanks. Thank god I never got anything from that. If anyone knows of a case personally, please share with us. This thread is very informative shadow, and we can all benefit to learn as much as we can.


l wish this could become a sticky as TB is one of those severe cases of diseases that can be transmitted from fish to human and well if we don't watch out and take care of each other than there not much left in the hobby since we are the core that sustains it. l'm just trying to spread the wealth... or knowledge in this case :biggrin:

*just came across this and thought it might be useful when dealing with it*
When cleaning a tank that has had a diseased fish in it, especially if you suspect a Mycobacterial infection, perform your usual bleach solution (9 parts water: 1 part bleach) cleaning, followed by rinsing with copious amounts of water. Follow this by spraying with iso-propyl alcohol (“rubbing” alcohol) and allow it to dry, as this will kill any Mycobacteria that may persist despite the bleach. Rinse well with water and the tank will be free of Mycobacteria


----------



## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

PRSRocker3390 said:


> Ah great, my hands always seem to have little cuts on them from work..[/url]


A dr can do a culture if you happen to get anything suspicious. I got into some nasty bacteria a few times from my reef tank. You should have seen the postules on my hands. I wear these now~
http://www.marinedepot.com/Coralife...ter_Aquariums-Coralife-ES09505-FIMTPG-vi.html

here is my thread from one incident....nothing to play with
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lounge/77603-i-messed-up-bad-time.html

Sorry you are going through this.
edit: don't bump the thread because the pics are bad, but I edited it and added them. A little blurry, but it gives you an idea..


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

Well the good thing is that l didn't have any cuts when digging in the tank. l won't worry until l see some bumps on my skin but in the meantime i'll be using gloves and will order some of those gloves you have to prevent future disasters. Glad you're doing fine (yes i read your entire thread . lt can be scary because you're not used to thinking about it everyday until you finally realize what it is then you kinda freak out and become paranoid. lf l do happen to get contaminated and l get bumps within a couple of weeks l will go see a dermatologist or dr. thanks anyways for your advise carole.


----------



## PRSRocker3390 (Apr 20, 2009)

I used a strong bleach solution, (about 10,000ppm of bleach or little more as recommended by some articles I read), then rinse it down with the hose, then sprayed some excel (less potent as metricide but all i had available) on to the tanks, then sprayed clean with hose again, now dried the tanks and letting them sit. Might even wipe down with alcohol to go the extra mile and then rinse again. All the filter parts and things in the tank sat in a bucket of bleach and water solution as well for a bit, then rinsed them with the hose, and now are sitting in a bucket of water with a lot of dechlorinator. I threw away the old substrate and will start new. Threw away the ceramic pieces and sponges in the filter and will just replace them both.

Anything extra I have to do to make sure those cleaners dont affect the fish once the tank is up again, like the bleach on and in the filter? Should I just run the tank for a few days with prime in it?​


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

yea i would do the 75% alcohol as well, l'm currently tearing down my 48g so yea.. You did good on replaced the sponges and l think you should be good. only thing l might change is putting hot water in the bucket since fish tb usually dies off at 98F and then prime in it like you said and you should be safe after taken all those measurements. Well i'm off to nuke my tank i'll be back in a couple of hours:icon_evil


----------



## PRSRocker3390 (Apr 20, 2009)

Let me know how it goes. I am going to use the alcohol as well and call it a day. Like I said it seemed to be fish tb with the gourami because of the ulcertation on the jaw and lethargic but I am not 100%. The gourami never had the curved spine though but he died in that tank and it never hurts to sterilize the 5.5 and 10 gallon isolation tanks I had with him. They are small enough to move and clean so it can't hurt. Once I have the tanks running again I will post updates with life in the tank after this reset.


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

l cleaned out my tank first with a spray bottle of excel then wiped it down then with a towel soaked with alcohol and wiped it down a second time after and looks clean. l noticed when l was taking out the sand i kinda scratched up my back glass piece on the tank :S good thing lt's not gonna be noticeable when i fill it in with plants. Anyways l got a 37g drum in home depot and filled it up with 100F degree water and soaked my pieces of manzanita wood and hooked up my filter and l'm going to let it run overnight so that it flows everywhere inside and hopefully the heat kills the bacteria. l figure if our body temp is normally 98F and it's hard for tb to exist soaking my equipment with 100+F water will work as well. i'm about to post pictures of my tank all nice and clean


----------



## hydrophyte (Mar 1, 2009)

Wow I didn't know that fish TB was transferable to humans. A couple of years ago I observed curved spines and morbidity with a group of livebearer juveniles. At the time I thought that it might have been a vitamin deficiency, but these descriptions make it sound more like fish TB. 

I must admit that from time to time when in a hurry I have started that siphon by sucking on the hose--won't do that anymore.

This makes a UV sterilizer sound like a real good idea, especially for systems with high fish bioloads.


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

Yea hydro, l never was too much into the sucking on hose anyways l kinda learned better the other way. l never thought using a UV sterilizer was a big deal and thought i'd rather use the money for something else but now l won't chance it plus it gets rid of a lot more stuff other than just tb so l find it a great investment.


----------



## PRSRocker3390 (Apr 20, 2009)

A little of topic maybe but can't uv sterilizer kill some good bacteria as well. I know they say they don't but I thought I read some experience by other hobbyists that it could. I never knew whether to get one or not. Will it help to have it or can it damage I good biological filter built up in the tank?


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/00388mycoarticle.pdf
from ^^ link :UV light is highly effective for killing all microbes, including mycobacteria (LeChevallier 2004). A UV sterilizing filter only kills the microbes that are suspended in the water. It does not harm the nitrifying bacteria essential to biological filtration, because they (like many other bacteria) live attached to filter media and other tank surfaces

l'm going to try it, that's the only way to find out right?


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

l thought l might post this as well just a bit of background on "LeChevallier" just so you don't think i'm just saying jibberish and making this all up 

LeChevallier, MW. 2004. Control, treatment and disinfection of Mycobacterium avium complex in drinking water. In: Pedley S et al (eds). Pathogenic Mycobacteria in Water. IWA Publishing (London, UK) for the World Health Organization, pp. 143-168.

Mycobacterium marinum =fish TB by the way


----------



## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

UV and good bacteria:
UV kills bacteria (and other things) in the water. The beneficial microorganisms mostly cling to surfaces in the filter, substrate, leaves of plants and so on. These will not be killed by a UV sterilizer. In the initial month or so of set up there are more microorganisms in the water finding new places to colonize. A UV at this time could slow the initial cycle. This cycle is usually measured and monitored as the nitrogen cycle, but a lot more microorganisms are growing at this time, too. Best not to use UV, antibiotics or other fish medicines during the initial cycle. Many fish medicines do not actually kill bacteria cells, but interfere with their life processes making reproduction difficult or impossible. This would slow or stop the establishing microorganisms that you really want in the tank. 

Diagnosing Mycobacteriosis in fish:
Gotta cut open the fish and look for the granulomas on the internal organs. There is a special staining prodecure to confirm that whatever you see really is caused by Mycobacteria. All the external symptoms can be caused by other things, though the presence of several symptoms (not just one) sure does seem to indicate that the problem really is Mycobacteriosis. Some fish have this disease, but do not show symptoms. Their immune system is weakened, though, and they die of something else. 

Sterilizing:
Bleach followed by alcohol is the method I have read the most about. Bleach by itself is not enough. 
I do not know about temperature, the stuff I read does not seem to say anything about it. I would not trust JUST temperature to kill it. Surgical instuments are sterilized with pressurized steam (autoclave) for a reason. 
Running the tank without a host: (Planted tank with no fish) sounds good. However, the new fish you add might bring it with them. I do not know how long Mycobacteriosis can survive in a tank without a host, or what other animals (shrimp, snails) might harbor the disease, and act as a reservoir to reinfect fish that are added after a fishless period. 

Treatment for infected fish: Some antibiotics are said to work, but the treatment takes a long time. I do not know how effective the treatment is. If your fish seem to have an unknown infection but shows several symptoms: Find a veterinarian that is interested in fish. Deliver the speciman alive and let the vet kill it and look for Mycobacteria. If you are willing to sacrifice the fish that seem the worst off (lethargic, poor color, bent spines, odd growths) you might confirm the disease in the tank. (You will never confirm its absense without killing all the fish)
If you do have confirmed Mycobacteriosis there are a few options:
Treat with antibiotics followed by UV. Then sacrifice some more fish to see if it has been controled. Good chance of controling it, but you can never be 100% sure. 
Kill everything in the tank, sterilize the tank, throw away anything that cannot handle being sterilized. (plants, for example). Cruel to the fish in the tank that have been exposed, but may not be infected, but much the safest way for you. 
Keep the tank running and keep it in quarantine, you wear gloves... and accept the fish deaths. This seems the most cruel (lingering, diseased death of the fish), and most dangerous option. After everything has died, then sterilize the tank.


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

l've read there is no treatment yet and others where using certain types of anti-biotics work (Kanamycin + Vitamin B-6 for 30 days http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/fish_diseases/physical_changes.html). Which one to believe huh?  l'm most likely gonna get rid of everything that can be rid of such as plants and stuff then once the 40g tank is empty bleach it followed up by alcohol. my 48g is already sterilized from pouring bleach and then wiping it down followed by excel then wiping that then lastly alcohol and then wiping that down oh l almost forgot l left it in 100+F temperature so lf SOMEHOW happens to survive l'm going to lose my mind :angryfire. You can't be too careful . To explain the temperature deal l read in a article that sometimes it'll usually goes away because it just stays in the cooler parts of the body and since your average body temp is 98F it can't handle it and eventually dies off on it's own l figure it wouldn't hurt to dip my equipment in 100+ water right? lf anything lt's just another step of precaution and doesn't hurt to try.


----------



## PRSRocker3390 (Apr 20, 2009)

I think you did everything you can shadow. Try the UV sterilizer if you can to prevent further outbreaks of it again. I think I am going to invest in one for my 75 gallon tank so I have a better defense system against this disease. 

I have a question though, I just used a new wash cloth I bought and put some alcohol on that, then rubbed down every part of the tank. Is that what you did or are going to do? Is that effective enough or does it have to soak in alcohol? Or do you spray it on? I used a heavy bleach solution to clean the tanks, then sprayed excel on them, then let dry, then next day(today) rubbed them down with alcohol and rinsed them again. All the miscellaneous parts like thermometers, heater, etc, I put them in a bucket of bleach solution, then rinsed in tap, the soaked in water with tons of dechlorinator, then soaked them in boiling water. I boiled some in a pot on the stove then pour it over all the items in a 5 gallon bucket and just letting them soak until it goes cool again. Think I am safe or is there anything I messed up or missed?:icon_conf Let me know. This is some horrible stuff to deal with.


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

l poured a bit of alcohol on the cloth but l kinda wish l soaked it in it. either way l believe as long as you rubbed it all i'd assume your safe. Spraying isn't as effective as rubbing with a cloth. l think so far what you did was what l would of done. lt's pretty hard for bacteria to survive in boiling hot water so you're pretty safe. l think you covered everything so far. l finished my cleaning as well. The last thing i'm doing is rinsing out my filter's hoses real good with bleach and excel then letting them soak in boiling hot water. Only time will tell if i succeeded. l will also be looking more into the uv sterilizer and find out what EXACTLY it does to the beneficial bacteria as l hate taking peoples word on stuff and plus l have a thirst for knowledge so l kill 2 birds with 1 stone.


----------



## PRSRocker3390 (Apr 20, 2009)

I hear you. My main concern is the alcohol. I rinsed the tanks afterwards but can that foul up your tank? Can it absorb into silcone of anything and leech out later? Is it safe? This is the only concern I have at the moment. Otherwise I feel pretty good.


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

As far as silicone l'm not sure but if you're worried i'd rinse it out then fill the tank up with water and double doze prime and let it sit for a couple days then dump that water and finally fill it up with the water you're actually going to keep. l think silicone is pretty solid even tho it feels a bit like hard jello. At least it's not like a sponge then we'd be in big trouble.


----------



## PRSRocker3390 (Apr 20, 2009)

I keep reading online to never use alcohol in the aquarium. Now I'm a bit nervous.


----------



## PRSRocker3390 (Apr 20, 2009)

Nevermind, I found an article about how activated carbon can remove it. Pretty interesting. http://www.aquariumslife.com/saltwater-101/activated-carbon-in-aquarium/ I'll just place a mesh bag of carbon directly in the tanks for a few days and then run my filters with carbon for a month or so. I normally don't use carbon but I guess now would be a good reason to use it. Never needed carbon and heard it isn't needed or sometimes wanted in planted tanks.


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

l like aquariumslife.com it's really a good website with tons of topics ranging from algae to substrates and explaining in detail why their good and why they're not. Let's put it like this l learned more in that website in 1 day then months or even years of reading other articles. l used api's ammo-carb l just put it in my canister filters cartridge and l'm set. Just make sure to replace your carbon like every week(that's what l do), some others say every two weeks but i'm a bit picky and like my water crystal clear. You might also want to pick a carbon which has the lowest amount of phosphates as most of them have some.


----------

