# Flourish excel and fish?



## tiny (Apr 20, 2004)

Do the fish react from excess flourish excel like they do with too much co2?


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## zig (Jun 4, 2005)

Yep you will find them gasping at the surface if you add too much.


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## tiny (Apr 20, 2004)

Ok thanks.


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## malkore (Nov 3, 2003)

and way too much excel, will start killing off the bacterial colonies that run your nitrogen cycle. You'd have to dose about 5x the recommendation to have that happen, but you'd see cloudy water...just like a bacterial bloom, if you did too much.

This should happen prior to the fish being adversely reflected. I'm not sure the fish would gasp, because excel is NOT liquid carbon dioxide. However a friend of mine ran an O2 test while dosing, and noticed a very slight decrease when dosing 50% grade gluteraldehyde, which is the key molecule used to create Excel.

Note: anyone interested in dosing pure gluteraldehyde...its 1mL per 100 gallons of tank water, 3x a week (not capacity, water...thus a typical 125gal tank would be dosed 1mL). gluteradehyde is a strong algicide.


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## csfish (Sep 29, 2003)

Too much Excel is deadly... Even though I was following the recommended dosage, I think it contributed to the demise of several schools of fish. I lost a group of black neons, some Beckford's pencilfish, white cloud minnows and a couple of nice lionheads. These fish never looked like they had too little oxygen, no gasping, but just started dying at a rapid rate, i.e. the whole school would be gone within 2-3 days. I've cut way, way back on the Excel and haven't had deaths like that since.


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## Ryzilla (Oct 29, 2005)

I dose 1.25X the dosage in my 2.5 gallon tank every day with fry in it. I have had 3 casualties out of 10 fry. the casualties looked more like survival of the fitest than excel overdosing. If you dose the recommended or a little more because you have heavily planted tank you should be fine (IMHO)

Peace,
Ry


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

malkore said:


> gluteradehyde is a strong algicide.


That's an understatement. Gluteraldehyde is a strong BIOCIDE, related to formaldehyde. At sufficient concentration, it kills darn near anything, which makes it useful for sterilizing medical instruments, labware that has been exposed to infectious agents, etc. I know someone who uses it at their job. They affectionately refer to it as "Ethyl Methyl Death".

At lower concentrations, it's still not pleasant stuff. Gluteraldehyde crosslinks proteins, is a mutagen and carcinogen, is known to cause allergic chemical sensitization, and exposure is a known occupational hazard:

"The 1999 Code of Practice for Safety, Health and Welfare at Work (Chemical Agents) Regulations, 1994, reduces the occupational exposure limit for glutaraldehyde from 0.2ppm to 0.1ppm."

Dosing 1ml gluteraldehyde per 100g water exceeds this limit by a factor of 26.

From the MSDS:

---
Acute Effects:
May be fatal if inhaled.
Toxic if swallowed.
Harmful if absorbed through skin.
Causes severe eye irratation.
Causes skin irritation.
Material may be irritating to mucous membranes and upper respiratory tract.
May cause allergic skin reaction.

Chronic Effects:
Laboratory experiments have shown mutagenic effects.
Target organs: central nervous system, heart.
---

If Flourish Excel really contains this, I will never use it.


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## malkore (Nov 3, 2003)

from seachem.com - Polycycloglutaracetal, the Primary Component of Flourish Excel

http://seachem.com/products/product_pages/FlourishExcel.html

Polycycloglutaracetal is the chemical derrived from gluteraldehyde.

You're right that glute. use is not to be done lightly, as its a very harmful substance if mishandled. 50% solution is also expensive, as it costs more for hazardous materials, cold shipping, and next day air (About $65 for all that) than the actual gallon of it ($54).
25% solution isn't considered haz. mat. so its much cheaper to ship, but still has to be stored in the fridge.


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

malkore said:


> from seachem.com - Polycycloglutaracetal, the Primary Component of Flourish Excel...Polycycloglutaracetal is the chemical derrived from gluteraldehyde.


A brief check didn't locate any reference to Polycycloglutaracetal on their site. Their own MSDS states that Excel contains glutaraldehyde:

ParaGuard, HealthGuard , Pond HealthGuard, Flourish Excel, StressGuard [NFPA 1,0,1]:
Principal ingredient is glutaraldehyde with ameliorating ingredients, pH 7. ParaGuard also contains malachite green. Malachite green is a
possible carcinogen. Ingestion may cause severe gastric disturbance. May cause moderate irritation of mouth. If ingested, drink large
quantities of milk or water. Universal antidote (charcoal) is useful. If enough is swallowed to cause distress, seek medical attention. Eye
contact will cause severe irritation. Flush eyes copiously with water. Seek medical attention.

Plenty of attention given to malachite green's toxicity. None given to glutaraldehyde. Not surprising since malachite green is only infrequently added to tanks and is expected to kill stuff, but they expect you to use Excel on a regular basis.

Polycycloglutaracetal also doesn't show up in the Sigma-Aldrich catalog. Nor does it show up anywhere on the web, except in reference to Excel - apparently its listed on the bottle at the primary ingredient. Did they just make up a new name for it so that people who look up ingredients on the web don't immediately see how nasty it is, or what?


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## putty (Nov 19, 2003)

malkore said:


> from seachem.com - Polycycloglutaracetal, the Primary Component of Flourish Excel
> 
> http://seachem.com/products/product_pages/FlourishExcel.html
> 
> ...


Click that link, and have a look at the left side, it's their product of the month, and a pop up window will show up with some interesting chemistry on how this works.


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## mrbelvedere (Nov 15, 2005)

If it is a carcinogen and mutagen I worry about keeping a colony of breeding cherries in my tanks with Excel. Ten generations down the road will I have horrible shrimp that are abominations in the eyes of God?


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

mrbelvedere138 said:


> If it is a carcinogen and mutagen I worry about keeping a colony of breeding cherries in my tanks with Excel. Ten generations down the road will I have horrible shrimp that are abominations in the eyes of God?


Or would you have the next gotta have it shrimp???


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## supaoopa (Oct 25, 2004)

Wow, i use excel a lot and was not aware of these cautions about its ingredients. Good to know, going to start to taper off usage. :eek5:


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## fusQer (Jan 23, 2006)

reading the bottle of excel, it talks about it being carbon stuff for the plants. how is this related to co2 injection if at all? one would think that if you have co2 injection, that you dont need excel.


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## jimmydrsv (Apr 8, 2005)

Really, the difference between medicine and toxins are simply often in the dosage and concentration.

Consider the stuff you put on your skin. HCl and other acids at low concentrations. 

You can take the right dosage of medication and get healthier and die from ODing on it.


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## djlen (Sep 14, 2003)

I use it as well with good results, but have reservations about it's safety with regard to the well being of my fish.
My question is, why use it other than as instructed by the manufacturer when it works well at those dosages, both for maintaining carbon levels, and as a hedge against BBA?
Seems as though even 1.5x dosing is unnecessary.

Len


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## jimmydrsv (Apr 8, 2005)

I was dosing 3-5x with pressurized co2 and was seeing minimal results and my crustaceans weren't bothered.

I was however running 4.4wpg of ah light over it though probably using it up much faster.


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## beviking (Aug 2, 2005)

jimmydrsv said:


> Really, the difference between medicine and toxins are simply often in the dosage and concentration.
> 
> Consider the stuff you put on your skin. HCl and other acids at low concentrations.
> 
> You can take the right dosage of medication and get healthier and die from ODing on it.


Have to 2nd that! "Everything in moderation" is what nutritionists/dieticians would tell you. Your body needs iron. Google "iron toxicity" :icon_eek: 

If you inject CO2, you don't need Excel.


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## jimmydrsv (Apr 8, 2005)

It supposedly acts as an agaecide and iron reduce so why not try it out?

Didn't kill much algae but I noticed better colors in a few different plant species. It could all by psycological though and I am imagining it but excel isn't that expensive and would take me forever to use up on my 30 gallon tank anyways.


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## Tim_in_NYC (Feb 9, 2006)

Interesting crossover threads on Excel including comments from Seachem.

Personally, I have stopped using the stuff in my Tropheus tank.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=104658

Crosses over here:

http://www.plantgeek.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6596

-Tim


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## beviking (Aug 2, 2005)

Awesome links Tim! 
I find it quite entertaining that someone would translate a statement (that a family of compounds is used in every day items like toothpaste) into a comparison to the safety of glutaraldehyde. The point was that there are many different compounds within a "chemical family" (the aldehydes in this case) and because one is very toxic (formaldehyde) it doesn't mean they all are (like whatever it is that is used in toothpaste?).

Hey, ever look up the MSDS for salt? Watch out, it'll getcha!!!


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