# Shrimps dying after water change



## CrazyPeekles (May 28, 2018)

Hello all, 

So I seem to be having either plant issues or shrimp issues.. I guess I'm not too surprised with my lack of experience in both. 

I currently have a 8 gallon 12"x12"x12" cube that is housing RCS and am growing dwarf baby tears, bacopa, and anubias petite with pressurized CO2. I had some issues with the plant as they were dying off and I started to add ferts. Well three days ago I calculated my ferts wrong and accidently dosed way too much seachem nitrogen and caused my nitrates tests to be 80+ ppm. I noticed something was wrong after a few hours later when I saw my shrimp starting to twitch like crazy in the water. I did two 50% water change (I know shrimp hate large WC, but I felt like this was the best solution atm) to try to get my nitrates down. Since that night they started to die off a few a day and they are still dying off today. I had around 50-60 juvies/adults and prob down to 30-40 now.

One thing I've noticed is that some of the shrimp are failing to fully molt. One adult shrimp that I always see molts successfully before the water change, but after the WC, just yesterday I only saw the head portion molted with the body still being whiteish. Some of the dead shrimp also has a white horizontal line on the back between the head and the body. I've never had this issue before the WC and I've been doing the same thing, just adding tap water. 

I am wondering what else I can do to help save my shrimps as they were all thriving before I made my stupid fert mistake..Might it just be the large water changes causing the shrimp to not like the unstable water parameters and they were in shock?

Water Parameters (currently):

Temperature: 76 farenheit
KH:4
GH:5
Ammonia:0
Nitrite:0
Nitrate:10ppm
PH when CO2 on:6.6
PH when CO2 off:7.5

Ferts: 

Seachem Flourish (comprehensive), nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, iron (all of which I have dosed way down after I noticed the shrimp are dying)

Please let me know what additional info I can provide. 

Thank you!!


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## powderwt (Apr 21, 2017)

One thing I see is your gh seems pretty low. I've heard slot of people say the 1:2 rule when it comes to hardness. That is, your GH should be about double what your kh is. Idk how much truth there is to that. I get such sporadic results when I test my kh I don't hardly test it anymore. I use salty shrimp GH/kh+ and remineralize my RO water with it. I get mine to about ~9-10 GH.

I'm not sure how you do your water changes, but youre right, shrimp are pretty sensitive to them, so you want to do your best to make the water your changing the of with AS CLOSE AS possible to what your taking out. 

I'm talking, your new water should be very similar in GH/kh especially, send yo ualso want to take into account, water temperature. You want to kill your shrimp off, dump some ice cold, or hot water in your room temperature tank and see what happens. 

So idk if your trying to recreate the water temps and hardness of your old water, but if not, I would definitely start there.

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## CrazyPeekles (May 28, 2018)

powderwt said:


> One thing I see is your gh seems pretty low. I've heard slot of people say the 1:2 rule when it comes to hardness. That is, your GH should be about double what your kh is. Idk how much truth there is to that. I get such sporadic results when I test my kh I don't hardly test it anymore. I use salty shrimp GH/kh+ and remineralize my RO water with it. I get mine to about ~9-10 GH.
> 
> I'm not sure how you do your water changes, but youre right, shrimp are pretty sensitive to them, so you want to do your best to make the water your changing the of with AS CLOSE AS possible to what your taking out.
> 
> ...



I use aquasolum soil and that helps buffers my water a little bit after I add in tap water. I assume this is probably not a good idea anymore as its pretty hard for me to create similar water parameters as the water inside the tank.. I will try to do my best with the temperature in the future, and look into RO water and remineralizing. 

But would the shrimp keep dying off even after 3-4 days since the water change occured? I'm worried that they will still keep on dying and leaving me with a dead tank next week.


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## powderwt (Apr 21, 2017)

If for whatever reason you CANT make the water very similar, you need to add the water back slowly. I mean SLOwwww. Shrimp are pretty fickle. So if you dump a bunch of different kind of water in, it can shock them. So maybe just add the water back little by little. Like add a couple cups leave it for an hour, and come back and add more so on so forth.

In my experience, i feel that when you do something to shock shrimp, be it drastic change in water parameters, temperature, or say your co2 regulator and timer breaks and stays on non stop blasting co2 (this happened to me a couple weeks ago...), it can take like 4-5 days for your shrimp to succumb to it after being shocked. 

I know this can all be aggravating, especially if you read online about how people say, "oh rcs are so hardy, I have some living outside in a bucket in some old black water" but they really are kind of fragile. When you have them in a smaller tank, like most people do I for instance have a fluval edge which the tank is a pain in the butt itself but also only 6gals., All the changes in Temp or parameters is amplified because theres not as much water to begin with, so the smallest problem is just amplified drastically.



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## tamsin (Jan 12, 2011)

At a guess the water change is simulating a moult and then they are having trouble with the moulting. So you could raise the GH very slightly and maybe look at the foods you feed too.


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## CrazyPeekles (May 28, 2018)

powderwt said:


> If for whatever reason you CANT make the water very similar, you need to add the water back slowly. I mean SLOwwww. Shrimp are pretty fickle. So if you dump a bunch of different kind of water in, it can shock them. So maybe just add the water back little by little. Like add a couple cups leave it for an hour, and come back and add more so on so forth.
> 
> In my experience, i feel that when you do something to shock shrimp, be it drastic change in water parameters, temperature, or say your co2 regulator and timer breaks and stays on non stop blasting co2 (this happened to me a couple weeks ago...), it can take like 4-5 days for your shrimp to succumb to it after being shocked.
> 
> I know this can all be aggravating, especially if you read online about how people say, "oh rcs are so hardy, I have some living outside in a bucket in some old black water" but they really are kind of fragile. When you have them in a smaller tank, like most people do I for instance have a fluval edge which the tank is a pain in the butt itself but also only 6gals., All the changes in Temp or parameters is amplified because theres not as much water to begin with, so the smallest problem is just amplified drastically.


Bingo.. Definitely not as hardy as I thought from online.. but I guess its a good learning experience. 



tamsin said:


> At a guess the water change is simulating a moult and then they are having trouble with the moulting. So you could raise the GH very slightly and maybe look at the foods you feed too.


Will this just be adding a GH booster such as Salty Shrimp GH+? I will definitely try that. I've been feeding them algae wafers previously and they would kinda touch on them, but never really partied over it either. I have just purchased some sera shrimp food o rings but they have not touched it or any food the past 2-3 days. Assuming they are still in shock over the WC...


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## powderwt (Apr 21, 2017)

CrazyPeekles said:


> Bingo.. Definitely not as hardy as I thought from online.. but I guess its a good learning experience.
> 
> 
> 
> Will this just be adding a GH booster such as Salty Shrimp GH+? I will definitely try that. I've been feeding them algae wafers previously and they would kinda touch on them, but never really partied over it either. I have just purchased some sera shrimp food o rings but they have not touched it or any food the past 2-3 days. Assuming they are still in shock over the WC...


How much did you feed them before and how frequently? Did they eat it all, or how long did you leave their food In the tank for?

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## tamsin (Jan 12, 2011)

CrazyPeekles said:


> Will this just be adding a GH booster such as Salty Shrimp GH+? I will definitely try that. I've been feeding them algae wafers previously and they would kinda touch on them, but never really partied over it either. I have just purchased some sera shrimp food o rings but they have not touched it or any food the past 2-3 days. Assuming they are still in shock over the WC...



Yes, you shouldn't need much as you are just boosting your water rather than fully re-mineralising RO. GH5 is right at the bottom of their preferred conditions so upping a little may help. Using a product designed for shrimp is a good plan too - you don't know exactly what makes up the GH for your tap (it's a combination of minerals) so it could be a little low on calcium even if the GH is within range.


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## CrazyPeekles (May 28, 2018)

powderwt said:


> How much did you feed them before and how frequently? Did they eat it all, or how long did you leave their food In the tank for?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


I fed them every three days, around 1/8-1/4 of a NLS algae wafer. I usually took the leftover food out the next day. 



tamsin said:


> Yes, you shouldn't need much as you are just boosting your water rather than fully re-mineralising RO. GH5 is right at the bottom of their preferred conditions so upping a little may help. Using a product designed for shrimp is a good plan too - you don't know exactly what makes up the GH for your tap (it's a combination of minerals) so it could be a little low on calcium even if the GH is within range.


Well another 7-8 shrimp died last night. Maybe it's just me but they seem to be dying off at night mostly. Some of them are dying with their bodies white. I'm sure I'm not gassing them with CO2 as well. I will try to get a product to raise my GH but I'm not sure if I can find it so urgently around. Hopefully they don't keep dying off..


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## tamsin (Jan 12, 2011)

That's a lot for it to be moulting problems. Do you run CO2 at night? If so I'd consider turning it off overnight or generally turning it down a bit and see if that helps.


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## madcrafted (Dec 23, 2017)

How is the aeration in your tank? I ask because if they are dying over night, O2 levels may be too low during this time. I'd also drop temperature closer to 72°, if you can. This will help increase O2 levels as well. Something to consider anyway.


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## CrazyPeekles (May 28, 2018)

tamsin said:


> That's a lot for it to be moulting problems. Do you run CO2 at night? If so I'd consider turning it off overnight or generally turning it down a bit and see if that helps.


I turn it off an hour before my light goes out. So there should be no CO2 left in the tank. 




madcrafted said:


> How is the aeration in your tank? I ask because if they are dying over night, O2 levels may be too low during this time. I'd also drop temperature closer to 72°, if you can. This will help increase O2 levels as well. Something to consider anyway.


I am using a sponge filter so I assumed my O2 levels were okay. I will turn down the temperature in my tank.


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## madcrafted (Dec 23, 2017)

Plants are also releasing CO2 during the night, instead of creating O2 like they do during photosynthesis. A HOB filter would be a better choice in this case. A sponge provides good aeration but poor circulation and very little, if any, water surface disturbance.


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## CrazyPeekles (May 28, 2018)

madcrafted said:


> Plants are also releasing CO2 during the night, instead of creating O2 like they do during photosynthesis. A HOB filter would be a better choice in this case. A sponge provides good aeration but poor circulation and very little, if any, water surface disturbance.


I do have a hydor pump for water circulation inside the tank to disperse my co2. It's on 24/7. Would this be enough?

I'll look into smaller HOBs for my tank.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

madcrafted said:


> Plants are also releasing CO2 during the night, instead of creating O2 like they do during photosynthesis. A HOB filter would be a better choice in this case. A sponge provides good aeration but poor circulation and very little, if any, water surface disturbance.


Uh most of the aeration on either a hob or sponge filter/airstone is achieved by breaking the surface tension either by moving water or bubbles... the bubbles themselves provide little aeration, though they do provide some upwards water movement. It's definitely possible to create massive amounts of surface disturbance with an airstone or sponge filter too, I just hope you like the sound of splashing and bubbling.


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## madcrafted (Dec 23, 2017)

CrazyPeekles said:


> I do have a hydor pump for water circulation inside the tank to disperse my co2. It's on 24/7. Would this be enough?
> 
> I'll look into smaller HOBs for my tank.


Yes, using a small pump/powerhead should be sufficient, if it's creating some surface agitation.



Wobblebonk said:


> Uh most of the aeration on either a hob or sponge filter/airstone is achieved by breaking the surface tension either by moving water or bubbles... the bubbles themselves provide little aeration, though they do provide some upwards water movement. It's definitely possible to create massive amounts of surface disturbance with an airstone or sponge filter too, I just hope you like the sound of splashing and bubbling.


Yeah, I love replacing LED fixtures from water damage. lol 

In a breeder tank with nothing more than a few clumps of moss and an inch of substrate, a sponge (or several) may suffice. In a planted tank with with ever compiling organic matter being added to the water column plus the need to have circulation in all parts of the tank... I'll take a HOB anyday.


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## CrazyPeekles (May 28, 2018)

madcrafted said:


> Yes, using a small pump/powerhead should be sufficient, if it's creating some surface agitation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Any recommendations for a HOB for a 12" cube? I've heard good things about Aquaclear. 

I've also increased my GH to 7 today. I will add more tomorrow to around 9. I didn't want to change the parameters too much so they can get used to it. Hopefully this will help.. I might also need to add a fan to cool the water a bit because room temperature is around 78


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## madcrafted (Dec 23, 2017)

CrazyPeekles said:


> Any recommendations for a HOB for a 12" cube? I've heard good things about Aquaclear.
> 
> I've also increased my GH to 7 today. I will add more tomorrow to around 9. I didn't want to change the parameters too much so they can get used to it. Hopefully this will help.. I might also need to add a fan to cool the water a bit because room temperature is around 78


AquaClear 20 would work but for the little difference in price, I'd get the 30. More space for sponges, purigen, ceramic, etc. makes it a very flexible and practical choice. Flow can be toned down, so it's better to go bigger than you think you need. Just be sure to purchase either a sponge or stainless steel pre-filter for your intake pipe to keep shrimp fry from being sucked in. You'll also want to leave your sponge filter in the tank for the next few weeks to ensure the new filter gets properly seeded and can handle the bioload of your tank.

GH of 7 is plenty for these shrimp. A small desktop or even a computer fan would help bring temperatures down some. Just watch for evaporation and keep it topped off. A HOB filter does have one downside in your case with CO2... the fluctuating water line can change flow pattern. This will have an effect on the concentration of dissolved CO2. Same can be said with canister filters too. Just try to keep water level consistent or continue to use a powerhead for distribution of CO2.


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## CrazyPeekles (May 28, 2018)

madcrafted said:


> AquaClear 20 would work but for the little difference in price, I'd get the 30. More space for sponges, purigen, ceramic, etc. makes it a very flexible and practical choice. Flow can be toned down, so it's better to go bigger than you think you need. Just be sure to purchase either a sponge or stainless steel pre-filter for your intake pipe to keep shrimp fry from being sucked in. You'll also want to leave your sponge filter in the tank for the next few weeks to ensure the new filter gets properly seeded and can handle the bioload of your tank.
> 
> GH of 7 is plenty for these shrimp. A small desktop or even a computer fan would help bring temperatures down some. Just watch for evaporation and keep it topped off. A HOB filter does have one downside in your case with CO2... the fluctuating water line can change flow pattern. This will have an effect on the concentration of dissolved CO2. Same can be said with canister filters too. Just try to keep water level consistent or continue to use a powerhead for distribution of CO2.


Well I did the following yesterday:

-Increase GH to 7
-Used a fan to bring down temps (my room temp was actually around 80 degrees so I brought it down to 75 with my fan, my heater was set to 72 which I thought was the right temp but I was wrong)
-Shut off my powerhead

Im glad to say that no shrimp died last night. Hopefully it stays like this from now on.. I'm thinking it might've been the heat because I didn't have a thermometer in there before and they might've been cooking at around 80-82 degrees because of the summer heat. 

I have purchased an Aquaclear 20 before your post, I'll see about the sizing and if I can accomodate a larger one I can get the 30. I was actually hoping to place my GLA CO2 diffuser under the HOB return to distribute the CO2. That way I can remove the bulky powerhead I have inside. I'm a little confused in regards to what you mean by the HOB having an effect on the CO2. Are you talking about the flow of the CO2, or the actual chemical reaction that the HOB might have on the CO2? 

If I place the CO2 diffuser under the return and if the flow of the water can distribute the CO2 well, then I wouldn't need the powerhead anymore right?

Thanks for all your help!


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## madcrafted (Dec 23, 2017)

CrazyPeekles said:


> I'm thinking it might've been the heat because I didn't have a thermometer in there before and they might've been cooking at around 80-82 degrees because of the summer heat.


Hmm, maybe you'll get lucky with the rest but expect to see more deaths if temperatures remained that high for any length of time. Bacterial infections are common in these conditions.

As I mentioned before, the AC20 should be do the job just fine. I run a couple of them on a 9 gallon long (for good circulation). I do have the flow adjust set to lowest setting with double foam in each basket and a foam prefilter on intakes. It still has enough power to create a little "hump" at the water's surface on the opposite side of the glass 9" away, so very good flow overall as you can see here:https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1277281-my-9-1g-shrimp-tank.html If it weren't for the long length of this tank, one HOB would have worked, especially if I cranked up the flow and used a single foam media block, like it is intended to run. You should be fine.


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## sharonemery1 (Mar 30, 2014)

The water changes were a good call. If that ever happens again, just wait a bit between them. At least 15 minutes, maybe a half hour. Neos will take it. Caridinias might squawk a bit LOL, but neos are tough. They really are. You're just new, as we all were once. Yeah, yeah, I know you've heard that before...



It's okay, I think I see a few things that may be compounding each other...

I think it was the shock from the ferts coupled with higher temperature and possibly too much CO2. I've kept bloody mary's at 80 before and they were fine, but I think they definitely do better at 76. They didn't breed as much at that temp. I was just temporarily housing them in a tank that I was also using to breed psuedomugils for a few months, so that's why it was so high. It was low tech, no CO2 or lights to compound matters... 74-76 seems to be the sweet spot for me with neos... And as Madcrafted said, higher temps can encourage bacterial infections if they rear their ugly heads. Bacteria are everywhere, and when we've been stressed by something, that's when they can gain the upper hand...

If they were stressed by the high nitrate, then the high heat might have pushed them over the edge.

You might also have a third stressor with your CO2. 6.6 is really low for a KH of 5. That would be in the hazardous range for most livestock. Might want to bump it up to 6.8 or 6.9. Maybe even 7 considering the higher temps... At 6.6 that would mean there was 37.7 ppm of CO2 in the water. And yeah, the higher the temp the lower the dissolved oxygen is in the water. So that would have compounded it further... 

There's a great chart over at the Barr Report here: https://barrreport.com/threads/co2-ph-kh-table.10717/

It'll show you how much to drop your pH while still staying in a healthy range for livestock. 37.7 isn't all that high, and some folks will do okay taking it to 40 with some species of fish, but it's still past the safe point of around 29, and coupled with the higher temp and less oxygen might have been caused an issue.

Yeah, might be a good idea to cut back on the CO2 and let the pH rise to 7... Maybe even discontinue it for a little while to give them a chance to recover.

But if the deaths are slowing down, that's a good sign. Some will be tougher than others...


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## ILikeRice (Jul 9, 2017)

The large w.c caused the molt failure while the nitrate added to the deaths.


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## CrazyPeekles (May 28, 2018)

madcrafted said:


> Hmm, maybe you'll get lucky with the rest but expect to see more deaths if temperatures remained that high for any length of time. Bacterial infections are common in these conditions.
> 
> As I mentioned before, the AC20 should be do the job just fine. I run a couple of them on a 9 gallon long (for good circulation). I do have the flow adjust set to lowest setting with double foam in each basket and a foam prefilter on intakes. It still has enough power to create a little "hump" at the water's surface on the opposite side of the glass 9" away, so very good flow overall as you can see here:https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1277281-my-9-1g-shrimp-tank.html If it weren't for the long length of this tank, one HOB would have worked, especially if I cranked up the flow and used a single foam media block, like it is intended to run. You should be fine.


I added it in with a prefilter sponge and put it on the lowest setting, it seems to give me very good water circulation in the tank and from just the hour or so after I put it in, the CO2 seems to be circulating good enough. It is also not powerful enough to blow my shrimp. I'll let it seed for a few weeks with my other sponge filter. 

Thanks for all your advice. Hopefully lowering the temperature solves my shrimp deaths. I don't have much left as half the tank died :crying:



sharonemery1 said:


> The water changes were a good call. If that ever happens again, just wait a bit between them. At least 15 minutes, maybe a half hour. Neos will take it. Caridinias might squawk a bit LOL, but neos are tough. They really are. You're just new, as we all were once. Yeah, yeah, I know you've heard that before...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is a lot of very helpful information. I agree that the deaths were compounded by numerous reasons. I have to admit I did panic a little when I saw the shrimps twitch like crazy after dosing the high nitrates, hence the two large water changes. The nitrates, WC, and along with the unnoticed high temps prob caused them all too much stress. I never thought about the temperature as they were always in the low 80's with no problems at all, but that is when they were no other stressors involved. 

Thanks for telling me about the CO2 as well. I have read that chart before but I didn't know it was so dangerously high. I will definitely lower it tomorrow when it turns on again. I'm not sure if stopping the CO2 will have negative effects on my dwarf baby tears, as they were dying a while back also. 

I'm just pretty bummed that I already lost half my tank to this stupid mistake. It took me a long while to get them stabilized when I first got them. Probably doesn't help that I decided to put them in a high tech tank, which was my first time too. I definitely hope I'm not going to lose the entire tank, but the deaths seemed to have slowed down for sure since last night. 

The current shrimps are survivors. Survival of the fittest for sure.. At least the next generation are gonna have good genes I guess :grin2:.



ILikeRice said:


> The large w.c caused the molt failure while the nitrate added to the deaths.


Definitely sound like it. Lesson learned to not be extra extra careful while dosing any ferts in the future...


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## DiscusStu (Mar 6, 2017)

Wobblebonk said:


> Uh most of the aeration on either a hob or sponge filter/airstone is achieved by breaking the surface tension either by moving water or bubbles... the bubbles themselves provide little aeration, though they do provide some upwards water movement. It's definitely possible to create massive amounts of surface disturbance with an airstone or sponge filter too, I just hope you like the sound of splashing and bubbling.


This is a myth that needs to die.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

DiscusStu said:


> This is a myth that needs to die.


You're showing me a chart of above water rotary paddles vs huge arrays of airstones with fine bubbles in sewage treatment oxygen reactors where they have finely controlled horizontal flow, displayed on an aeration per watt used basis. Air pumps are indeed more efficient than water pumps...

The right side of figure 1 is what we're dealing with in 99.9% of aquarium air stone/sponge filter installations... to hit the higher range of efficiency "Depends to a large extent on diffuser density and number of blowers and mixers required. Cost highly related to efficiency." To manage that they are using vast arrays of "air stones" with very fine bubbles and essentially wavemakers to make a stream tank, this is way beyond what someone is likely doing in a shrimp tank.

I don't think your chart is showing what you think it is. They are talking about massive tanks set up to do nothing but aerate, with vast arrays of fine bubble diffusers. They're going over how important it is to set up flow so it makes the horizontal flow just so to keep the bubbles down while accounting for the rise of bubbles interrupting the flow, this is so much more than basically all of us do in our aquariums.

This equation though heh "EQ 3: F~k*u2" (it's really in there heh the paper...

It's not a myth when you are dealing with 1 air stone/sponge filter as per the right side of figure 1, can a tank be engineered so that is not the case? Yes, but as you can see it's basically engineering the entire tank to be an oxygen reactor.


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## DiscusStu (Mar 6, 2017)

The values are per energy consumption. Obviously, a large implementation of an inefficient method can outperform a small implementation of an efficient method. I doubt the results would change if scaled down to aquarium scale.

Bubble aeration with room air can't exceed 100% saturation but I've easily achieved 300+% by aerating with the output from an oxygen concentrator. If the 88% oxygen output from the concentrator was simply roiling the surface, it would only be aerating the water with 22% oxygen room air.


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## DiscusStu (Mar 6, 2017)

From _Impact of bubble and free surface oxygen transfer on diffused aeration systems_:



> Surface transfer and bubble–water transfer both contribute significantly to the total oxygen transfer in this type of diffused aeration system. Bubble–water transfer, however, is the dominant means of oxygen transfer. These results were obtained numerically and verified experimentally. The results can be applied to aerated systems at similar depths or to deeper water systems where the higher bubble–water concentration gradient near the submerged diffuser should cause an even greater dominance of bubble transfer in the aeration process.


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