# Aquascape advice. 10Gallon



## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Front substrate line should be perfectly level, not banked on each side like you have. You create the banking within the tank, not on the edge. This makes the view appear much bigger. As well, for perspective, it needs to slope greatly toward the back.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> Front substrate line should be perfectly level, not banked on each side like you have. You create the banking within the tank, not on the edge. This makes the view appear much bigger. As well, for perspective, it needs to slope greatly toward the back.


That definitely makes more sense. I found some landscaping edging that we have left over. Is it possible to use this stuff to hold back the substrate? I could cut it into a sloping angle to create the slope edge following around the substrate. Then possible use rocks and/or foam glued to the outside edge, paint it black, and then add moss to it to make the creek edge? Maybe lol.

What kind of paints are safe for aquarium use?


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## Catf1sh (Apr 15, 2014)

Personally I would go with taller "trees" so that they breach the water line, giving that real forest look in the tank. Why only temporary co2? Your plants will adapt to having co2 and if you remove afterward you'll have a lot of die off, you'd do better not putting co2 in at all or ideally permanently.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Little Soprano said:


> That definitely makes more sense. I found some landscaping edging that we have left over. Is it possible to use this stuff to hold back the substrate? I could cut it into a sloping angle to create the slope edge following around the substrate. Then possible use rocks and/or foam glued to the outside edge, paint it black, and then add moss to it to make the creek edge? Maybe lol.
> 
> What kind of paints are safe for aquarium use?


As long as the edging is non-toxic it should be fine. No guarantees as even PETE plastic, (water bottle containers), are non-toxic but leeches toxins over time which results in water tasting like plastic.

I'm don't know about the paint but I'd rather not use any paint. You can check for aquarium safe paint.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

I ended up not using any paint at all. I hot glued lava rocks to the side of the plastic and some wood too, and used fishing line to attach loads of moss around it. I like how it came out, and it holds the substrate back really well. The way the moss was tied, and the rocks glued on, hides the tops and back edges of the piece. Was able to bend it the way I like and it's extremely sturdy. Going to be making another one tomorrow. And maybe a few smaller ones to make the levels better.

There's another thread going discussing temporary CO2. This is going to be a shrimp tank, so I can't really use CO2, just wanted to get some of my plants going for the most part. My LFS owner is getting in some more Anubias Nana Petite and my hydrocotyle tripartita for me. I'm debating pulling it right now, but at the same time it's tempting to leave it in as it's helping me with the huge new-tank algae bloom. 

I do really need to find bigger pieces of wood. The one on the right was breaking the water line, but I needed to anchor it more in the substrate to get it to be sturdier. I'm going to be going to the beach in around a month from now, so that will be the best time to look for more. All the aquarium driftwood is so expensive here, so I'm just gonna wait it out. I do agree with you onthat helping to create a more forest like look. 


The supports are holding back the substrate pretty good, so I might take another go at using gravel again. Won't go with sand, but I saw some nice light gray colored gravel which could work for the creek area. I'll take an update picture tomorrow. Also fixed the sloping on the substrate too. Only trouble spot for me right now is avoiding the heater.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

Well I went and searched through google to try and find more information on the edging I used, but couldn't find any. I'll have to monitor it over the next few weeks and see if it leeches anything, but I don't think it will. It's from the 90s (based on the picture on the front), but I don't think it will cause any problems. Hopefully it won't, as it looks awesome covered in the moss, and is holding everything back really well!


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

Okay here's the updated aquascape. I think I need to move the creek over to the right a bit, but I'd like to here other people's thoughts. The wall on the left I'll probably attach some moss too as I did it with the right side. I'm going to the lakeshore this weekend, hopefully, so I am going to try and find more driftwood trees, more specifically taller ones, I have one piece floating at the top that I'm hoping will sink.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

I rather liked the first scape better. You could create the bank using small polished stones, maybe covered in moss. That would come close to imitating the picture. Im not sure you even need a dramatically different substrate for the waterway. To me that usually it looks more like a drainage ditch than a natural stream. Using either nothing, or some low carpeting plants for that I think looks better.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

It looks worse than before. The creek looks artificial and the choice of pebbles looks like yellow M&Ms.

This is what I would do:
1. Black lava rocks for the banks of the creek, both sides.
2. Keep the black substrate for the creek bottom. No sand, no pebbles.
3. Place the creek close to center.
4. Replace trees with fallen logs with moss on top.
5. ...


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## Italionstallion888 (Jun 29, 2013)

Remove half the lava rock and give the branches in front some angle.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

So no trees? Rats. Okay, I'll do what everyone says lol. Though I can't really afford the cost of new lava rocks, only have red ones available to me.. I'll try though.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

The trees you have are fine imo. They mimic the look of the pic you posted. I like the way they looked in your first attempt, maybe with just a bit more of them or slight tweaking :twocents:


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

It's just so frustrating trying to get it right, and for some reason it's driving me nuts trying to get it right. The first time I set it up, it looked AWESOME, then I had no idea about the tricks to keeping substrate undisturbed while filling (I now use a large paper plate floating at the water line), and TADA MESS. I had the levels I sketched out nicely filled up and angled, with lava rocks holding them back, covered in moss, the whole tank looked pretty decent, and then yeah. 

I can't find a way I like it. I'm tempted to siphon most of the water out tomorrow, even if it means my tank having to recycle, and redo the substrate. I might keep the supports in but put them where they originally WERE. To be honest the hardest thing right now is working around the heater. I'm tempted to just take it out because it keeps me from angling the left side of the tank. I was originally gonna have it slightly bigger on the left not the right, but the heater got in the way lol.


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## Catf1sh (Apr 15, 2014)

It's _getting_ there. Every scape goes through an experimenting stage, it's part of the fun .

1) I agree on the trees, keep that look as you were inspired by the forest photo and it's what you want. Do see if you can find taller ones locally.

2) +1 on replacing the red lava rocks with matching dark rocks, what you want is the bank to _blend in_ with the substrate not stand out.

3) I would bring the stream more to the centre, with a slight bend allowing the eye to follow it.. 

4) Having done the above, I would actually narrow the stream a bit, and run a trickle of white sand through it. Subtle, but gives an impact.


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## Steve002 (Feb 7, 2014)

I love your picture but do realize that if you do achieve that look in your tank you will have lost a significant amount of water space with the steeply sloping sides. 

Seems your problem is how to achieve those slopes with substrate. In real life the sides are held up with the tree roots and the covering plants. Even if you were to slope the substrate and add your water really carefully the substrate wouldn't stay at that slope and would gradually flatten out. Some folks add hold back walls running horizontally though the substrate with flat plastic (clear sheets from your stationary store cut into strips) would do but the slopes in the picture will take more than even that to achieve. On the steepest parts you are going to have to use more than that. I suspect you could use black plastic netting to create bags of substrate that could then be planted with a covering moss. Interspersed with black rocks.
For the creek itself you could try a number of things. White sand has been suggested, even grey or black sand. You could try something different by looking at what railroad modelers do to recreate rivers and waterfalls. They use fibre glass resin to get some very realistic looking water. Just make sure you give it plenty of time to cure properly.
Good luck with it.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

Steve002 said:


> I love your picture but do realize that if you do achieve that look in your tank you will have lost a significant amount of water space with the steeply sloping sides.
> 
> Seems your problem is how to achieve those slopes with substrate. In real life the sides are held up with the tree roots and the covering plants. Even if you were to slope the substrate and add your water really carefully the substrate wouldn't stay at that slope and would gradually flatten out. Some folks add hold back walls running horizontally though the substrate with flat plastic (clear sheets from your stationary store cut into strips) would do but the slopes in the picture will take more than even that to achieve. On the steepest parts you are going to have to use more than that. I suspect you could use black plastic netting to create bags of substrate that could then be planted with a covering moss. Interspersed with black rocks.
> For the creek itself you could try a number of things. White sand has been suggested, even grey or black sand. You could try something different by looking at what railroad modelers do to recreate rivers and waterfalls. They use fibre glass resin to get some very realistic looking water. Just make sure you give it plenty of time to cure properly.
> Good luck with it.


Ironically I make model railroads, but they are easier for me because you have more materials you can use due to the fact it doesn't have to be "aquarium safe". I do realize it will decrease the water space, but it is for Tiger Shrimps, so fish aren't much of an issue. I have the tank 100% draining right now. Gonna take my time today. I was wondering if you could use the resin stuff. I have a case of it downstairs... All I know is I don't have a lot of black rocks. Is it possible to try and do it with the reds at all?

College student at end of monthly budget lol.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

Tank is pretty much as drained as I can get it with my siphon. I think I might still use the support on the right side, but maybe ditch the one on the left. I have no clue. I don't have any more moss right now, so can't cover up the red rock. I don't have anywhere around here that sells black lava rock in bulk, only red lava rocks. And the red ones were old filter media for the pond :hihi:

I have around 200 pounds worth of red lava rocks lol. 0 of black lava rocks.


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## Italionstallion888 (Jun 29, 2013)

To help with slopes, go grab some light grid from lowes or home depot. Stack it and super glue it together. Work like a champ and the grid is big enough to allow roots to grow.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

Sorry picture is blurry, my hands shake, its quite annoying lol. But is where the creek is sitting now, better? I use a big hunk of driftwood to hold back the substrate on the left side, it already has moss on it too. I might go get some egg crate, though I think I seriously need at least half a bag more of substrate. Would make it easier. 1 bag is not enough lol. If I could have maybe 2 cups more of the substrate, tht would be perfect lol.









That heater is really killing me lol. I have NO clue where to put it, and without it my tank would temperature would be very very low, necessary evil.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

There's the tank as it sits right now. I moved "trees" around, I hated one of them so I laid it down, and I think maybe by using more driftwood like that I might be able to create the slopes without using lots of substrate, and avoiding the heater at the same time. The rocks with ugly netting have moss underneath, it's just extra netting from when I set up the Aquaclear 30. I do want to get better driftwood to replace the tree on the right (make that another fallen tree), and add more to it, try and get some going diagonally across the tank. The bizarre piece of wood in the back, sticks up above the tank a solid 5 inches, but I don't want to cut it yet until I figure out where to put it lol. It will be covered with moss eventually. 

So is this an improvement? I'm liking it WAY more. Looks much more chaotic then before, especially with the moss everywhere. I left a very thin layer of substrate in the creek area.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

That's much better than before. If you decide to add sand, it should not be white. It should be a darker color, tan or brown, so that contrast is minimized. Harsh contrast of white and black will look gaudy.

Here's an example of a path using my friend's scape:











In this example, the path is wider but you could make it smaller and have it banked up higher in the back. There are no lava rocks holding up the bank, however, it will fall apart pretty quickly unless it's planted with a rooting foreground plant such as HC.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

I filled it up, the two rocks sitting there are just temporary and look like crap, but they are holding back the substrate. My LFS should have gotten in my hydrocotyle tripartita, which I plan on training to grow horizontally, and I think it should also help hold up the substrate slopes. 

That path is absolutely gorgeous btw. I wish I could use HC, but this will be a Tiger Shrimp tank, and I heard it's risky to be using CO2 with them. So I'm limited to plants that will do well without it. I do want to get a handful more driftwood to make more trees, and more downed pieces, to give it that chaotic look of the forest in the picture. Man I really need to take those rocks out lol. I'm going to try and find a better solution, I do have flat chips of driftwood that I could attach fissidens or moss too, and use that to help. With the pennywort help to hold up the substrate? Or does it not root well.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

H. tripartita does not root well and will not hold up the substrate. If you have the patience, you can dry start HC and wouldn't need to add CO2 once it's carpeted.

The smooth rocks can have moss attached to it so that it doesn't look artificially placed. As well, the sides should be banked higher because it looks too flat right now.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

Just kidding, I couldn't take it lol, put a moss covered rock in place of it. My BF said I should just leave it at this point and just add more driftwood and the plants as I get them XD. I've redone this tank probably 20 times.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

To be honest my biggest problem is the fact I don't have any more substrate lol. I should just go buy another bag, but I only need about two cups more, and thats 20 bucks I could spend on plants XD. I want to make it look good, but I don't think I'm gonna be able to make it look spectacular with my budget lol.


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## Italionstallion888 (Jun 29, 2013)

Sometimes you just have to say enough is enough and walk away for awhile. I live by a 3 day rule. If I want to change the scape of my tank, even just moving a plant, I make myself wait 3 days before I do the changes. 9/10 times the tanks stays the same lol and my life has been easier. I think you have a good foundation to work with and would agree with your BF, leave it and start adding to get it where you want or let it grown in and see how you like it.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

Italionstallion888 said:


> Sometimes you just have to say enough is enough and walk away for awhile. I live by a 3 day rule. If I want to change the scape of my tank, even just moving a plant, I make myself wait 3 days before I do the changes. 9/10 times the tanks stays the same lol and my life has been easier. I think you have a good foundation to work with and would agree with your BF, leave it and start adding to get it where you want or let it grown in and see how you like it.


Well as much as I'm trying to base it off the picture, I think the thing about basing it off a creek area that makes it nice, is I can basically just have the moss be overgrown along downed branches and random pieces of wood, and it should, in theory, work lol. He said not to touch it until the next time we go to the beach and I can get more driftwood. And at that point just add the trees in, whether they be standing up, falling over, or whatever. Forests aren't exactly very well planned out. All I know is I want at least one more Anubias nana petite, and then the hydrocotyle tripartita forced horizontal. And then loads of more moss, and fissidens. I think the shrimps should at least like it lol.

And I think I'm gonna go with that 3 day rule lol. I'm too much of a perfectionist, though aside from a little banking work, nothing in the tank is making me angry like it was last night XD. I do think it just needs a chance to all grow in, get the rest of my plants and driftwood in, and let it grow grow. I do have DIY CO2 going, but it's most likely getting yanked out when it's gone. General consensus seems to be I might get some die off, but I think my plant choices are hardy enough to survive. Mosses, Anubias, and pennywort should be hardy enough I think. I am dosing Seachem's Aquavitro line, but everyone's happy in my tank, though hopefully the few hours the tank sat without water helped kill off the insane amount of brown algae I had.


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## Italionstallion888 (Jun 29, 2013)

Just to make things easier for you, I know how exciting it gets putting a new tank together, I would be pretty proud of what you have done so far. Next time, try not working off a single photo. When I did my 4 tanks, I had several photos of "ideas" and used those to sketch out my designs. It was way easier to work off my sketches than an ideal picture. Keep up the good work.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

Italionstallion888 said:


> Just to make things easier for you, I know how exciting it gets putting a new tank together, I would be pretty proud of what you have done so far. Next time, try not working off a single photo. When I did my 4 tanks, I had several photos of "ideas" and used those to sketch out my designs. It was way easier to work off my sketches than an ideal picture. Keep up the good work.


Thank you! This is my first planted tank. The 40 gallon long we picked up 2 plants for about 2 months ago and now I have an entire tank I'm trying to plant. And when the comet gets put into the pond, I want to try and do something with it's little 1.5 gallon cube, though my bf wants to turn it into a brackish tank and raise nerites (he's a SW guy). 

Thanks for the compliments though! Much appreciated, makes me feel a bit better.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

I do want to try and find some more plants that could help with the look. That's the other part I need help with. I do love moss, so it's obviously a very moss heavy tank, but I think that works in favor with the forest look. The Anubias Nana Petite I think could work once everything else grows in, along with the pennywort if I train it properly. Are there any others that you guys think could work? I do want fissidens fontanus, but I think I'll wait to add that until I get more driftwood so I can attach it to the different pieces. I made a to do list:

-8-10 more pieces of wood, long enough to extend out of the tank, I want these to mostly be branchless and thinner then what I have. Will be covered with willow moss, or xmas moss, with fissidens on the trunks. Some I'll probably use as downed trees, though I want to make some of them placed at an angle as well. 
-The big piece sitting along the creek needs moss or fissidens big time. 
-Another Anubias Nana Petite or two. The one I have is sitting on a small piece of wood the size of it's current rhyzome to help keep it out of the substrate, so I think ill probably do something similar, though I could probably tie one to a piece of driftwood laying on the "forest floor". 
-pennywort will be planted along the creek bed, though I've also considered eleocharis belem (can this grow without CO2 in a low tech tank?)

Also I told myself no touching tank except for ferts and small 10% scheduled water changes so it can finally finish cycling and start to grow in. I can add driftwood or plants, but can't adjust hardscape anymore, or I'm going to drive myself insane lol.

What is this plant: 








I bought it from petco when it had 3 horrible looking leaves, and it sits in a wad of coconut fiber. Today it has TONS of leaves, red leaves in the back too, with two stems that shot up out of the water and are flowering. Can I take these seeds out and grow the plant that was in the fiber? I was thinking it could work in the tank, though this guy has grown to be HUGE.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

This is mostly a planning issue, hence the endless number of fidgets. The way I plan is drawing a rough sketch on paper, then arranging the hardscape together according to that sketch, and then spend a few weeks just looking at it and making adjustments. I take pictures, put them into my computer, and draw in the plants. After I'm satisfied with the arrangement, then I put the hardscape into the tank. A lot of time is simply spent thinking about how the elements would balance with each other. This is the Measure Twice, Cut Once principle. Because once you cut, it makes it so much more difficult to make corrections.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> This is mostly a planning issue, hence the endless number of fidgets. The way I plan is drawing a rough sketch on paper, then arranging the hardscape together according to that sketch, and then spend a few weeks just looking at it and making adjustments. I take pictures, put them into my computer, and draw in the plants. After I'm satisfied with the arrangement, then I put the hardscape into the tank. A lot of time is simply spent thinking about how the elements would balance with each other. This is the Measure Twice, Cut Once principle. Because once you cut, it makes it so much more difficult to make corrections.


True. I had a plan, but couldn't afford the materials to follow out the plan, so I just went for it. I don't know first planted tank woes. I'm happy with it now, and I really appreciate everyone's inputs, it helps a lot to get other people's opinions.


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## Catf1sh (Apr 15, 2014)

Little Soprano said:


> True. I had a plan, but couldn't afford the materials to follow out the plan, so I just went for it. I don't know first planted tank woes. I'm happy with it now, and I really appreciate everyone's inputs, it helps a lot to get other people's opinions.


Well as a first attempt at a planted tank, not bad, not bad at all. What you set out to do was setting the bar very high for yourself, so I wouldn't worry too much.
No one started this hobby with their first tank being a masterpiece!


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

Catf1sh said:


> Well as a first attempt at a planted tank, not bad, not bad at all. What you set out to do was setting the bar very high for yourself, so I wouldn't worry too much.
> No one started this hobby with their first tank being a masterpiece!


It's more fun for me to make it a hard project. I'm pretty good at making models, but you don't have the constraints of not only working in water, but making it inhabitant safe as well. I can't wait to get to the beach and find some more driftwood to complete the look. My BF said theres a place about 20 minutes from where we normally go where there's always boatloads of driftwood. And on top of it old cherry tree orchids line the shoreline, so I'm bound to find some awesome shaped pieces. Won't be for quite some time but excited to say the least!


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

Without paint additions:









So it's been about 2 weeks or so, and I've gotten a LOT of growth of my mosses. I made a quick sketch up on paint of where I want to add driftwood to the tank. I'm going to be going to a swampy area where I saw a lot of dried out branches of different shapes and sizes this weekend. I want to add more branches that just go straight up above the waterline, and have those branches be thinner towards the back so I can add some more depth. I still think the creek needs some color to make it stand out a little, I found some gray colored gravel I could use, but I'm not going to add anything to the creek until I'm done with everything else. 

I put the inspiration picture to the side of it, and I think a big part of making it look right is going to be adding more pieces going at slight angles towards the top, and adding downed ones as well. I will probably cover these pieces more sparsely with moss as I want to get some more of the brown wood color into the tank instead of hiding it all. 

Should I just stick with the willow moss? I've had no luck finding fissidens so far, but I am still interested in getting it into the scape. Would hydrocotyle sp. Japan still work with the scape?


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