# "A Minute to Learn; A lifetime to Master" 60 gallon (shallow) Dutch



## MrAlmostWrong (Jul 16, 2012)

The dimensions of that tank are sexy as hell.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Aren't they? I was super excited to see it sitting in a corner of a storage building. I grabbed it right away. Thank God it makes trimming/planting easy because as shallow as it is I'll have my hands in the tank constantly. LOL


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## jfynyson (Apr 15, 2013)

What's the substrate make up & the white PVC contraption (skimmer ?) ? Subscribed....It would be super excellent if you could have a video camera set up when you redo the scape & replanting. Most importantly when doing the pruning / trimming / training the growth techniques if you had that video it would be priceless to those trying to learn. Been trying to find start to finish Dutch techniques video but cannot find them.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

jfynyson,

Thanks for following. Even though the plants are in only the crudest semblance of an aquascape I'm rather excited about the tank. It's nice to get my hands wet again. 

The substrate is approx 75/25 Brightwell Aquatics Florin Volcanit Rio Cafe M and F, respectively. It may be closer to 50/50 since I grabbed a bunch out of the big tank and can't remember exactly where and how much I took from.

The Big Ugly White Pipe is a standpipe left over from when I was going to be making this into a reef. Christmas money burnt a hole in my pocket and I decided to plant it before putting up foam walls and taking out the stand pipe. Both of those will happen eventually. The room the tanks are in gets really cold and I don't want the fish and plants sitting in a bucket (even with a heater) while the silicone cures until it gets warmer. That may seem silly since the tank's basically a glass box that's exposed on 5 sides but with as much as I've invested in the fish and plants I'd rather be extra careful than tempt disaster. I can't afford to do a mass replacement and still have the money I need to put into the big tank. It may be ugly as sin, but Great White's staying in there and helping me get rid of any unwanted floaters with the occasional overflowing and skimming. It also happens to be a great way to get some A. nana 'Petite' adjusted to growing vertically for eventual wall planting. 

I'll get photos and possibly a video when I do the final 'scaping….if I can find someone with a decent camera to do the photos/videography.

Regards,
Phil


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*2.10.14 Update- Trim and re-arrangement*

9 days after the initial planting it was time to do a major re-arrangement of some species. The Shinnersia rivularis and Gymnocoronis spilanthoides in front, Ludwigia sp. 'Red' (what's the ACTUAL species on this one?) in the middle, and Hygrophila sp. Somethingorother in the back were all growing too quickly for their positions (had to trim them every 4 days or so). The two big leaved guys in front were inhibiting circulation and the Hygrophila just needed to be hacked back hard. 

Thanks to the Great White Standpipe From Hell interfering with flow along the back I decided to put a koralia in the left rear corner in hopes of helping plants in the rear do better. Because the Hygrophila is fairly thin-stemmed and gets blow sideways easily I decided to put the more robust Shinnersia back there next to the current maker.

After seeing how most of the plants have responded I figured I may as well do a big cleaning and re-arrangement to improve flow and looks. 

2.8.14 prior to trimming and rescaping







*2.9.14 after the water cleared*. It looks pretty messy in the photos, but a lot has been changed in ways that I hope will allow maximum circulation and growth as well as improve the overall design flow.


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## nicholz (May 5, 2012)

Hey Phil looking good - really like those dimensions - FYI I have broken heaters by having them diagonally in the past - if you hear it clinking when it starts up beware the coil may twist and fail - don't know what brand yours is but look into it if you'd like. 

Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Thank you nicholz, and thanks for the tip. The only heaters I currently have are these big ones that aren't completely submersible. Keeping it at a diagonal like that is the only way I can keep the entire heating element submerged. I'll definitely be keeping an eye on it from now on.

Cheers,
Phil


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## The Trigger (May 9, 2012)

Filling in nicely Phil!


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Thanks Trigger. It's still got a long way to go..and miles to go before I sleep.  I can't wait for some of the lower growing species to fill in so I can dump the Saggiteria.


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## The Trigger (May 9, 2012)

Phil Edwards said:


> Thanks Trigger. It's still got a long way to go..and miles to go before I sleep.  I can't wait for some of the lower growing species to fill in so I can dump the Saggiteria.


I'm the same way lol. Some days I look in the tank and damn near expect there to be a full carpet of HC a week after planting. I have zero patience lol


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The Trigger said:


> I'm the same way lol. Some days I look in the tank and damn near expect there to be a full carpet of HC a week after planting. I have zero patience lol


Then do more frequent water changes, think what species look best next to HC without shadowing it etc etc.

You wish for rapid growth rates, so said a boy name Jack and some beans.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Captain's Log 2.22.14*- This is going to be a big photo update as I've made some big changes and am tracking progress of some sort of alga on the substrate. It's dark brown and is making a thin cover over most exposed substrate and some of R. nanjenshan. Due to previous issues with the filter not really picking up much, deposition of organic matter, and latent organic matter being in the substrate granules themselves I've been leaning toward it being some sort of cyanobacteria. However, it's not making the thick mats I've seen from cyano before and haven't seen a cyano this color. That's got me wondering if it's diatoms too since there's also silica in any soil, clay, or ash based substrate. 

I'm not looking for advice on how to get rid of it; that's already in the works. I would like thoughts on what type of alga is potentially could be, and why you think so. 

On to the pics!

*2.18.14- *

Switched the in-line diffuser out for an in-tank one, took the Koralia out from the back and put an MP40 in the front in hopes of improving circulation and distribution of CO2. The in-line was getting really dirty and was putting out larger bubbles rather than a fine mist. Unfortunately, because it's so cold in the room the tubing was too tight around the glass and I couldn't remove the diffuser to clean so it got plugged. Now I can take the diffuser out and clean it as needed, which makes me happy.












*2.20.14-*
















Injecting FlorinBacter-


Thanks for watching.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Good news! It seems the consensus from a bunch of sources is........diatoms. The news is actually quite a relief as they concern me much less than cyano does. Now it's just a waiting game. 

I'm not normally downstairs watching the tank at the end of the photoperiod so I missed something important. Last night I was though and noticed most of the plants going into rest mode a good half hour to 45 min before lights out. So I did what any good plant keeper does and increased the number of bulbs on and upped the photoperiod by another hour to squeeze every last bit of photosynthesis from the plants. Actually, I reduced the photoperiod by an hour so the lights are only on for 9 hours/day. Hopefully that'll help reduce the diatom explosion. I hope it'll help encourage some of the plants to grow upright too as I can't raise the lights any higher than they are now.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Phil!, I didn't realize those were your tank. The 2009 scape looks great, have you thought of doing another dutch but in a smaller tank?

I know you're currently working on that 300g experimental tank, plus this 60g, that a lot of work. 

And I thought a 17 gallon was tons of work, 
Oh and PS - Got any more pics of the 2009 scape?


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## UDGags (Sep 13, 2009)

It's getting there. What are your plans with the lotus? Are you going to let it hang around up top to shade other plants or trim to keep towards the substrate?

Any plans for a background?

You should try and adjust your camera and/or lights for taking pictures so it isn't so bright in the pictures.

Random thing I noticed related to my tank...you have the Vortech solid section at the top while I have mine at the bottom. I think I'll flip mine this week and see how the surface ripple, etc. changes.


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## Crazy4discus (Jan 30, 2014)

Your old aqua scapes look amazing!!!!


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

FlyingHellFish said:


> Phil!, I didn't realize those were your tank. The 2009 scape looks great, have you thought of doing another dutch but in a smaller tank?
> 
> I know you're currently working on that 300g experimental tank, plus this 60g, that a lot of work.
> 
> Got any more pics of the 2009 scape?


Thank you for the kind words, they're appreciated. I do have a 20 gallon in planning stages but I need to get this one and the 300 gallon finished and going strong before spending money on another tank. I'm planning on entering these and a biotope that's not yet started in the AGA contest this year. The two dutch tanks require a lot of work yet to get them polished and up to competition level.

Sadly, I don't have any other pics of the 2009 tank. The computer I was using at the time died.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

UDGags said:


> It's getting there. What are your plans with the lotus? Are you going to let it hang around up top to shade other plants or trim to keep towards the substrate?
> 
> Any plans for a background?
> 
> ...


Thanks UDGags. It's still got a long way to go before I come up with a final design. I'll be making side and back walls for A. nana 'Petite' and moss. The lotus got a major trim after taking the photo. The plan for that is to see how it does in here. If it gets too big then it'll go into the 300 when it's flooded. Or it may go outside if it's warm enough. We'll see.  

You're right about the pics. I'm not a photographer and typically don't care about high quality when taking update photos. I should pay a little better attention though. This latest round was pretty awful.

About the VorTech; I did that in hopes of it pulling more water from the bottom and reducing surface agitation. It's worked ok so far. The unit is really too big for the tank so it's pretty much just a stand in until I can get my brother so ship out the MP10 at his place. I think that will work a lot better with the shallow water column.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Crazy4Discus,

Thank you very much. As far as proper Dutch design goes they're pretty junky. My local club had just started a HAP and I couldn't resist keeping a bunch of species in there to participate in the program. A lot of the small bunches you can see were only in there short term. The 2011 tank was a little better, but had its own issues to deal with. I've still got a long way to go until I would consider myself proficient in the style, let alone good at it.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Captain's Log- 3.4.14*

I think maybe, just maybe, I've crested the hill in the battle with diatoms. *cross your fingers* 

As soon as it was decided the brown beast wasn't a cyano I stopped injecting the substrate in favor of adding the same amount of bacterial suspension directly to the water column. I thought I started to see reduced coverage in the exposed substrate in the foreground but didn't continue the injections long enough to make a definitive statement. On top of that I just couldn't keep myself from sucking out the detritus that accumulated there. Proper husbandry is more important than satisfying my curiousity. 

I gave the substrate a good siphon on Saturday and didn't see significant regrowth on the scale that had been happening previously. In addition, the left side of the tank was getting so thickly overgrown with stems that flow and CO2 distribution were getting significantly hampered. Many of the leaves were getting a fairly thick coat of diatoms and starting to grow a little bit of thread algae. With those things in mind I decided to do a massive hack and cut most of the bunches down to about 4 or 5 inches from the substrate (about 50% of the biomass). Circulation has significantly improved and plants on the right side are now growing and pearling better than before (flow circulates from the right front around to the right rear). 

The next step in the overall plan is to get an overflow box, get the sump running, and make the walls. The tentative outlet plan is to make a spraybar to go along the back an inch or so above the substrate and have a gated 90* elbow pushing water along the front pane. The overall goal is for the spraybar to push water and detritus toward the front of the tank and the lengthwise current from the 90* to move it all to the overflow. The gate's on the 90* to allow me to increase or decrease flow from the spray bar as needed. All of the plumbing is going to be zip-tied to the eggcrate and incorporated into the sprayfoam to both hide it and keep it in place. 

Pics will come soon.


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## ROYWS3 (Feb 1, 2014)

I just stumbled on these threads today. Amazing stuff! You are right over the mountain from me! Any updates on either of your tanks Phil


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Hey there Roy,

The update is they both look like #$*@Y#&[email protected]#^@ I've been gone too often for work and vacation this summer so the 60 is trashed. The 300 is a wild wild forest of emergent stems. Actually, it would properly be called a terrarium at this point. There's only enough water in it to keep the plants alive. 

I don't plan on keeping the basement heated this winter like I did last one and will be tearing the tanks down as soon as I can. They're just too costly to maintain down there in that cold room and I've lost motivation lately. 

Want to come over and get some fish and plants? All it will cost you is gas to get to my place and the container to carry them in.


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## ROYWS3 (Feb 1, 2014)

That's sad to hear you will be tearing them down. I've really got no room for much more right now. I might be able to take a few fish and maybe a few plants. What fish do you have? I'm planning on putting together a 125 in the near future but I don't have a timetable. It's a shame that I probably won't be able to take advantage of your generous offer. I'll PM you - maybe we can make arrangements to get together sometime in the near future


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