# The 120-P Reader - Pictures Included (56KWarning)



## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

A little background, first. I’ve been a member for a while, but out of the loop for about a year.

I have been a planted tank hobbyist for around 4-5 years. I have made some truly horrific planted monstrosities. I didn’t keep the pictures of all the bad ones for, well, obvious reasons, but I kept some. Remember that I said these are the ones I _didn’t_ toss out, haha…

I had always been fascinated with the iwagumi style. I particularly value the wabi-sabi aesthetic it demonstrates – and really that’s what draws me to Mr. Amano’s work and Japanese style gardens in general. My own work as a theatre director follows this same transient, imperfect ideal, and I have always been drawn to art and expression that reveals frailty, character, uniqueness, organic origin and development, etc, particularly as it represents isolation and flawed beauty.

While I am only a doe-eyed novice yet, I always strive toward this sense of wabi-sabi – with little success, I admit – in my layouts. The areas I need the most experience and practice in are plant selection and trimming techniques.

I’ve spent a lot of time lately on the ADA View YouTube channel, and really it couldn’t have happened at a better time. These videos have been invaluable to me. Seeing these scapes planted for seminars, and then trimmed and grown in - seeing their development over time - awesome. 

We don’t have an active club in my area, and the members around Portland are not terribly active as a community, so we have little opportunity to share plants, techniques, and tips with one another. This has been a good substitute so far.

A quick retrospective of my previous work. I do this for context. Go ahead and skip, if you want the build begins later. But, If you like a good, old-fashioned house of horrors, or a nice freak show, perhaps the type you'd rather not admit you love to see, then please by all means share in my past failures! 

An early attempt:










Things I got right: CO2 and Light
Things I didn’t: Ferts, substrate, layout, trimming, and plant choice

I wanted to represent an area much like my home. High desert. Tonina sp. “Lago Grande” was a poor choice, here. The other plants grew ok, though.

Another:










Things I got right: Layout, substrate, CO2, Light
Things I didn’t: Ferts, trimming and layout material

Ugh… why am I sharing this? Well, I think it’s important to remember where I’ve been, so that I can see how far I’ve come. Plus, it’s kind of cathartic to relive some of these horrors, haha…

My first collectoritis tank:










Things I got right: light, ferts, heavily planted
Things I didn’t: CO2 (neither stable nor well distributed), substrate, layout, gassed my fish ☹

This was my first 90-gallon scape. Perfect footprint, but the height was a LOT to deal with. I couldn’t get the proportions to look right. I couldn’t tolerate the complete chaos, either. I enjoy engineered chaos. My job is a lot like that.

My first (sort-of) success:










Things I got right: Light, CO2, diffusion, ferts, heavily planted, substrate, layout 
Things I didn’t: trimming

That was my 90-gallon from a few years back. I had a chance to practice some trimming techniques and grew a pretty awesome HC carpet. I never trimmed the carpet though, so it eventually uprooted when it reached about 2” thick. The plants grew so quickly that I couldn’t keep up with them. 6xT5HO plus reactor diffusion and PPS classic dosing was a very high-growth combination!

The next version of the 90-gallon:










Lace rock and Manzanita. Kind of a tough scape to maintain with the sand. Eventually, my routine broke down, and I ceased to be productive scape-wise. I still really wanted an iwagumi scape. So, I built a few nanos to try my hand at stone layouts.



















And then, back to the 90 for some wacky stone scapes:




























That one was more like an aquarium clown-car: How much hardscape can I cram into a 90-gallon glass box?

Others:


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

You get the point. My last big tank was my 130 gallon. 60”x18”x26” 











I was inspired by the 2010 IAPLC 4th place winner (beautiful tank), but ultimately this one failed – big time. Not enough plant matter, ill-conceived lighting scheme, trouble with CO2 from the start, changed my fert regime and destroyed it, maintenance became a huge hassle with the depth and it generally went poorly. Around December, I nearly decided to call it quits - totally. 

I took a break. I rethought that decision. Why did I go that route? Why did I “go big?” Admittedly, the discus lured me in. Gorgeous fish. Fun to raise. Temps not friendly to the kind of layouts I like, though, so I was stuck with plants I wasn’t passionate about, in a tank I was constantly rescaping because it never felt the way I wanted it to. So, I asked myself: What DO I want? What kind of scape do I want to have in my life – as a long-term layout? After all, isn’t it worth it to do it EXACTLY the way I want to?

I started searching again. Viewing images, videos, IAPLC contest winners, random hobbyist tanks. I decided to sell the 130. I sold the 90. I sold the discus. I rebooted my aesthetic. I cleansed my palate of all the distracting crap that had been bogging me down and decided to start fresh. What did I want? What did I keep returning to, but only consistently half-a$$ed? 

Iwagumi. I still got that sad, peaceful, longing feeling every time I saw one that was well done. I got very excited when I saw interesting rocks. I have an addiction to beautiful stone, I think. My wife couldn’t count the number of times I’ve interrupted her concentration with and excited “Hey, honey – check out this rock!” I had to tie myself down to keep from buying every gorgeous rock that passed my sight. I trolled the S&S like it was Internet p*rn, searching for rocks that satisfied my perverse need.

But what would I do with them when I got them? Well, it was clear: I needed to take my earnings from selling off the big mess and invest in the system I should have bought in the first place. So, I asked myself: 

"What do I think is the perfect tank?"


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Remember the 90? 48”x18”x24” A little tall, but a perfect footprint. Enough depth that you could do some amazing stuff in there - but the proportions are skewed, too tall.

I worked hard to make the cabinet for the 130 nice and pretty. It was gorgeous in its own way: deep warm stain, well sculpted trim. Very traditional furniture style.

I’m not a traditional guy. My preferred interior design style is more contemporary. Clean lines. Pops of color. So… ADA?

The ADA 120-P. I’m pretty sure the P stands for “perfect”. Perfect footprint, proportionally appropriate height (say THAT 5 times fast) It’s the tank I have always wanted. Others may not agree that it’s perfect, but for me: this is my dream build.

Now, the 180-P is gorgeous and also well proportioned, but it’s more than I need. It would feel like too much to me. If I didn’t feel that way, you know I’d be farming mosses for the S&S and saving until I could afford it, haha! The 90-P is ok, but too short. I need length. So, there it was. Case made.

Big Stones. Gotta have the real deal. 77.5 pounds of seiryu stone. To be honest, I prefer ryouh stone. The color and texture more effectively communicates the wabi-sabi aesthetic in my opinion. I couldn’t afford it, unfortunately. I’m on a budget, here. A STRICT one. Ordered the stone – thank you, PC1 and another seller from the other forum ☺ - I got exactly what I wanted. Three HUGE seiryu stones with tons of character, and an assemblage of smaller stones to support them. Now, we’re talking.

But, first, I needed a stand. I need the stage upon which this little drama would play out.

So, I built one. Thanks jB for the tutorial online! I have used it twice, and modified your design to my taste, but your plans and how-to made it possible.

I’ll admit it’s not my best work. Frankly, I’m disappointed in my craftsmanship. There are details that could have been more gracefully handled. However, I was limited in time and space, as my wife would only let me use the living room as a cabinet shop for one weekend. So, here’s what I did.

Before paint and finish:










After:










Blue? Yes. Blue. I wanted a lighter shade, but that’s what I ended up with. I plan on skinning the cabinet in laminate as soon as I can afford it – maybe next summer? For now, it’s sprayed and finished with satin finish polyurethane so it’s waterproof and sealed.

I used poplar plywood, and I should have gone with oak, but couldn’t afford the extra price (2x the cost!). I know poplar is soft for a hardwood (more of a dense weed than a wood – it grows very quickly) as I have done a lot of work with wood, but I doubled it up, glued and screwed it, and it is sturdy and solid. Should do just fine. 

I put two 6” vertical portals in the side for filter intake and outlets. I have built one of these before for my Mini-L, and the problem I keep running into is that the portal for hoses is too narrow, and the hoses get pinched there, reducing flow and causing all sorts of trouble. So, I rotated them 90 degrees, and added another. Solved that issue. I also put a small 1” round portal on the other side for air and CO2.

I built a conduit light hanger to keep it off of the tank. I considered bending the pipe, but the length of the curve was too great for my taste. I used street elbows instead, and it’s not as clean, but it works. Painted with galvanized primer and gray Rust-Oleum. Still scratches off too easily. Any tips? Would coating it with polyurethane work? Anyway, final product:


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Ok, here’s where the part you really came for starts. So, I have a process for design. Usually starts as research on what I want to achieve, moves to sketches, and then a color drawing, then a prototype model, then the final product. I mention this because I have read here that some people have posted all around the forum that they have trouble with the planning of a good scape. 

My earliest scapes were pretty phenomenally lacking in planning – and it showed. I just grabbed what I thought I liked and threw it in, with little forethought. FX says to visualize your final scape. I agree. This is a visual as well as a tactile art form, so visualizing what your goal is remains important (degree in Fine Arts came in handy after all!).

I started with what I want to see from the front. Concave, convex, triangular? What is the feeling I want? I was ok with concave or triangular. I knew I wanted iwagumi with some stems in the background. I made my sketches. Here’s a doodle I did at work: 










I also did a color version, but it seems to be missing. No worries, because things change as I get the actual materials I’ll be working with. 

Planning is important, but remember: this is a largely organic process. Unless you know exactly what you are working with from the start, your end product will inevitably be different than you expected. I’m ok with this aspect. So I plan and doodle with the knowledge that I might throw it all away when my stone arrives.

My delicious stone. My magical stone. Yes, I love my stone.

Remember that this is without substrate (or a tank, for that matter), so it will appear different. Mr. Amano used this process to create the Tokyo SkyTree scapes. If it works for the father of Nature Aquarium Style, it should work for me! I laid out my stone on top of my stand, on a towel so it wouldn’t scratch the finish. It’s the same dimensions as the tank, so I have my footprint. I can use a tape measure to estimate the height.

The stone arrived, and I immediately set to work:










Started poorly. Rigid. Artificial. I like the height, but that’s about it. I think I was just too excited, or maybe I just didn’t have the feel of the stone yet. I went back to the little I know about Japanese gardening, and remembered the Crane and Turtle motif. With a few additions, here is my attempt:










I like this one, but there is something about it that doesn’t sit right. Maybe the “crane” stone should be at more of an angle? 

I shook it off, and let it sit for a day. Decided to re-approach it later. About this time we had a transit of Venus.










I realized I tend to place my focal point just left of center. Let’s mix it up.










Single spire, right of center, vertical alignment. Hmm. Ok. Let’s try concave.










Could work with substrate in there, but right now - a little weird. Let’s go back to the spire.










Closer. Better. Still lacking balance and I didn’t like how the secondary stone sat. Take another break, buy one more stone. A big one. The Big One.

Wait.

It arrives. Now, we play:

Spire A









Spire B









Not working. That new stone… rotate? Take a break. Come back later, refreshed.

Spire C









So close… What’s wrong? Take a break.










This is the final version of this spire concept. I may use this if I still like it in a few days. I may also go back to something resembling the Crane and Turtle concept with this new stone. 

Meanwhile, I wait for the tank and substrate system to arrive and hope it hurries along!


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

Cool story man, you can really see how your knowledge is growing and you're getting better and better. I like a couple of the stone layouts. The crane one was neat. The last could be really good, you just need to adjust it. It looks like the two rocks pointing left need different angles.

Nice work taking your time and going through it over and over. Keep in mind though, that the scape looks rather different with soil and you aren't using slope to your advantage in the earlier scapes. I do see you have a few books or something to create some height in the new layouts. You may want to get some dry AS in there and play with slops and such before you decide which particular layout to move forward with. The crane layout could be more dramatic with a mound, as well as the last layout there. The concave would look completely different with a valley, or a mound.

Try it out.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

jcgd said:


> Cool story man, you can really see how your knowledge is growing and you're getting better and better. I like a couple of the stone layouts. The crane one was neat. The last could be really good, you just need to adjust it. It looks like the two rocks pointing left need different angles.
> 
> Nice work taking your time and going through it over and over. Keep in mind though, that the scape looks rather different with soil and you aren't using slope to your advantage in the earlier scapes. I do see you have a few books or something to create some height in the new layouts. You may want to get some dry AS in there and play with slops and such before you decide which particular layout to move forward with. The crane layout could be more dramatic with a mound, as well as the last layout there. The concave would look completely different with a valley, or a mound.
> 
> Try it out.


Thanks man  I totally agree  I am using 1" foam insulation (had a bunch lying around) to stack under the towel to give it height and stabilize the bigger stones. It works pretty well. I'll probably use it in the tank too, since AS is so light, with big stones it tends to just slide around. When the tank shows up I"ll see how it goes. I'll also add more height, as I have plenty of vertical space to play with.


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## green_valley (Sep 14, 2011)

Wait a minute............wait wait wait wait..
Those are alll your tankss?????????????????????????WOWWWWWWWWWW

I love them, and thanks for sharing what you've gone through. Amazing stuff you got here, so how many total tanks you've had????


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

green_valley said:


> Wait a minute............wait wait wait wait..
> Those are alll your tankss?????????????????????????WOWWWWWWWWWW
> 
> I love them, and thanks for sharing what you've gone through. Amazing stuff you got here, so how many total tanks you've had????


Haha... a LOT. Thanks  glad you enjoyed it - it was fun reminiscing, haha...At one time I had 7 tanks running at once. That's a lot of water  I have pared it down now to 1 planted and a 20 long for hospital/temporary housing - not counting this build. To be honest most of these are the same tank, (the 90) but layouts that didn't last more than a year, as I was unhappy with them shortly after I planted them (A consequence of working in an industry where we work on a project intensely for 3 months, run it for a few weeks, and then tear it down again). Getting plants to grow was pretty easy when I had the basics down. Trimming, layout, planning - these things I'm still struggling with. I'll try to work out the kinks as I go. I don't mind screwing up in public


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I have enjoyed a few of your tanks here. I don't know how many journals and pics you posted here but I didn't have any idea you had done that many scapes. I remember one in particular that you didn't put up in this thread. It may actually be the last one in your first post, looking back at them.

I have to be honest, I don't particularly like the criss cross in Iwagumi (though I do think Jermaine Dupri was a genius for putting his faith in Kriss Kross however). I actually like your first layouts better than your last ones. I don't say this to be critical, it's a difference in taste. I like rock scapes that have height as they tend to give more power through a grander sense of scale. I also don't like the main stones facing opposite sides of the glass. Again, a difference in taste. I am on my first rock scape I actually like, second one ever, so I am no expert here either.

That said, I really like what you are doing across the board. I personally like seiryu over ryouh stone so I am glad you couldn't afford what you wanted :red_mouth It looks like a lot of the large stone cliffs that poke over the ocean on the coast in my area (well, the coast that is closest to my area I should say). The stand looks great IMO, I personally wouldn't choose the color but I actually really like it. 

I can't wait to see where this goes.


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## green_valley (Sep 14, 2011)

theblondskeleton said:


> Haha... a LOT. Thanks  glad you enjoyed it - it was fun reminiscing, haha...At one time I had 7 tanks running at once. That's a lot of water  I have pared it down now to 1 planted and a 20 long for hospital/temporary housing - not counting this build. To be honest most of these are the same tank, (the 90) but layouts that didn't last more than a year, as I was unhappy with them shortly after I planted them (A consequence of working in an industry where we work on a project intensely for 3 months, run it for a few weeks, and then tear it down again). Getting plants to grow was pretty easy when I had the basics down. Trimming, layout, planning - these things I'm still struggling with. I'll try to work out the kinks as I go. I don't mind screwing up in public


Wow, a lot indeed. I guess we're in the same path. I am building a fish tank room at the moment. Im gonna catch you soon. Mine is only 6....hahahah

Yeah, i understand what you do. That happens.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

talontsiawd said:


> I have enjoyed a few of your tanks here. I don't know how many journals and pics you posted here but I didn't have any idea you had done that many scapes. I remember one in particular that you didn't put up in this thread. It may actually be the last one in your first post, looking back at them.
> 
> I have to be honest, I don't particularly like the criss cross in Iwagumi (though I do think Jermaine Dupri was a genius for putting his faith in Kriss Kross however). I actually like your first layouts better than your last ones. I don't say this to be critical, it's a difference in taste. I like rock scapes that have height as they tend to give more power through a grander sense of scale. I also don't like the main stones facing opposite sides of the glass. Again, a difference in taste. I am on my first rock scape I actually like, second one ever, so I am no expert here either.
> 
> ...


Thanks! My journals were the first victims of my insane schedule the last couple of years. The tanks were often the second. The scapes developed but I didn't have time to share how. Also my cameras broke, and that made it challenging. The last one (the Ohko stone scape) in my first post did very well for a while but eventually succumbed to a hair algae outbreak that I couldn't shake. I still need to figure out how to get rid of that stuff. That was one of my favorite hard scapes. 

The criss cross (will make you jump, jump) creates tension which may be what you don't like about it. I'm not sure how I feel about it, myself. It does kind of counter the serenity of an iwagumi scape. Serenity is a VERY difficult effect to achieve. 

I like the height in the earlier versions as well. I'll likely attempt to vary that with my main stone. I also want to try rotating it in different ways. I'll try more tomorrow. I keep the pics as a reference so I can always go back if I want.

Thanks for the comment on the stand - I wouldn't choose that color again myself, haha... WAY too saturate. At least the lines came out nice and clean.


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## Lil' Swimz$ (Jul 24, 2010)

What kind of stone is that!?


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Lil' Swimz$ said:


> What kind of stone is that!?


Hey Lil' Swimz! The stone is seriyu stone purchased from PC1. Pretty phenomenal pieces. Every angle is unique and interesting. I love the detailed character.


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## Lil' Swimz$ (Jul 24, 2010)

Hey I remember seeing this on APC, this is the tank that made me try high tec  I love it still..


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Wow, thanks! Glad it could be an inspiration. 

I toyed a bit with the stone arrangements today, but succeeded in only one original layout. I'll throw up the pictures later. I have narrowed it down to two possibilities, but I think I'll hold off the decision until I get the tank. I chose my plants today as well.

Hemianthus callatrichoides
Riccia fluitans
Hydrocotyle sibthorpioides
Rotala indica
Eleocharis acicularis

I've used all of these before except the hydrocotyle. This will allow me to feel confident with the plants in such an ambitious layout (well, ambitious to me, anyway). I have some mini pellia in another tank that I might use to contrast the riccia and hc. There is an awful lot of light green in there, haha...

I have some Amanos on order, and I'll likely pickup some otos locally. I have 30 glow line tetras I'll put in with maybe a few Celebes rainbows for variety. I have to be careful or this will turn into a zoo, haha... I tend to do that.

The pattern here is restraint. I haven't limited myself much before, so I'm implementing that now. I don't want to go too crazy with this just yet. Keep it simple. Clean. Maybe opt for one of the simpler less cluttered layouts I tested...


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

*Narrowing the choices...*

I think I have it down to three possible layout choices. Now, when I get substrate in there things will look different. The rocks will be buried somewhat, the angles might be skewed a touch as I'll be better able to refine them to my liking, and there will be a slope visible which will have an effect on the depth of field.

And then, of course, there are plants to consider. I'll have some of those, too.

So, when I say "final" I have to throw in the caveat, same as before: organic process, etc. Right now, these are the three contenders.

*1. "Crane and Turtle"*

I think I figured out what was sitting wrong with this one. There are eight stones. The small one at the foot of the main stone (on the right side) is extraneous. I would also elevate the main structure more, and try to angle the entire composition from back to front a little so it is less linear.










*2. "Two Spires" *

I think I have the height I'm looking for in this latest version of this one. I want to play with lowering (or increasing, depending on your perspective) the angle of the main stone, opening it up more. it is less cramped than previous versions, and I like that it feels less tense. Lowering the angle of the main stone will also help that. I used fewer stones to avoid clutter, and I could even use less, but I'd like to maintain a certain amount of detail.










*3. "5 Stone"*

"5 Stone" is the one that I believe most closely fits the Iwagumi style. The long flat stone on the left would be able to support a layer of substrate on top so that it could have HC on top of it. This would really bring out the aged feel. The more I look at this, the more I want to see it with the main stone reversed, pointing left. In one way, I think it would create some tension, going against the established pattern, but in others... maybe I'll just try it and see. 

It's not like it's set in stone.

Yeah, I just went there. try to suppress that groan/chuckle.










Thoughts are welcome, as I have plenty of time to waste before I can do anything permanent about it, haha...


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I like them in the same order you listed, 1 is my favorite, 2 is 2nd, 3 is 3rd. However, I like 1 and 2 quite a bit better than three.

It's hard to say my opinion because I assume you may angle things a bit differently once you have substrate. 

I love #1 as it really shows off the character of the largest stone. However, with #2, you get the character of the large stone left of the main stone (don't know the Japanese terminology). Have you considered turning the two left rocks around on the left side. It may look more "tranquil", maybe not lol.

I think the first 2 will look great, just kind of nit picking.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Thanks for the input, talontsiawd  Yeah, it's tough to make any calls right now, really. However, if I can narrow it down to one or two possible layouts it'll make it easier when I get the tank. To be honest, I don't even know if the stones will support themselves the way I'd like. I'll just have to see.

I don't know the terminology either, really, haha... just what I have read in a few articles. I've read it referred to as a "lord" or "master" but only in quotations. However, it seems to be a literal reference. The only ones I'm sure of are the Crane and Turtle. That's present in the first and last layouts. The crane would be a tall stone, and the turtle would be a low, flat stone. 

I tried turning those rocks on the left in (#2, I'm assuming?) as it's currently set up in this layout. It does bring the eye back to the center more. It's still very energetic, though. The trouble is, I have two distinct focal points in that layout and I think that's whats giving it so much energy. I'd just have to be ok with that. The others really only have one, so they feel more relaxed - especially with the long low sloping lines.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Tank is on the truck  looks like Saturday I might be setting this beauty up. I'm pretty much giddy with excitement. I have wanted this setup since I first started in planted tanks. 

My dad was always a big hobbyist. He builds military models, mostly tanks and artillery. I got into it because he was into it. First it was cars, then planes, WWII bombers and biplanes, scifi models (sweet Shuttle Tydirium and Millennium Falcon), then WWII ships. Finally I got into model sailing ships. That was great. But I always felt like I was doing my fathers hobby (...come to the Dark Side, Luke...). I never felt like I owned it.

An old friend got me a goldfish after my brother was killed in Iraq. I was a mess, of course, and the routine of it was therapeutic. I found plants and totally fell in love with the "zen" of the maintenance routine. I cant say anything like "it saved me" or any ridiculous claim like that, but it was as much a part of what helped me cope as anything else. 

Like the sand mandalas the monks created once a year at my alma mater:

Focus on creation. Foster life. Experience virtue in labor. Wipe it clean and begin anew.

Art is an exorcism, sometimes. Even if the only sweet agony is in looking at an algae infested mess, haha... 

Anyway, the point of the story is that I own this hobby. It became mine not because of an inheritance, but because a need presented itself in my life and I was fortunate enough to have access to sites like this, and an interest. This is one of the places where I choose to find meaning and a measure of peace. 

This setup is a part of the image I always had in my mind when I envisioned my scapes. Yeah, it's just a bit of dirt and some glass.

But not for long


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## CmLaracy (Jan 7, 2007)

There's something about that first ADA/Rimless tank, they just have that elegance and simplicity to them that tickles your visual cortex in just the right way 

Read through all of the set up posts, didn't go much passed that though; it's 4:30am and I've had a beer or two. You've definitely got everything down, I'm expecting a top notch scape. On a side note, I really like your writing style. I took an East Asian art course last semester at TCNJ and it was nice to see someone actively incorporating Wabi-Sabi aesthetics... fleeting beauty, transient imperfection, that feeling of slight melancholy because you know nothing lasts forever... it's also why I prefer Iwagumi. 

It seems like you really know how to grow whatever you want, and based on the seiryu arrangements, you have the essentials of hardscaping down as well. I really like how you have the patience to set up hardscapes and then completely tear them down to accommodate new ideas and a fresh set of rested eyes.

I was surprised by your preferences in tank dimensions though. I really have a great preference towards tanks that are 1/2 as high as they are long. Thus the 90P and 120H are my favorite tanks, closely followed by the 180P, my dream tank. I'm constantly wishing my 75P was a 90P... I got it when I was 14 and didn't have the spare cash for the extra 6" length.

Will be following this tank's progression for sure, you better make me appreciate the fleeting beauty of nature with this one


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## green_valley (Sep 14, 2011)

Woowwww, all the scapes look amazing. But I would vote for number 2 with the adjustment of the big rock on the left might be too center. Other than that, it look fantastic


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

CmLaracy said:


> There's something about that first ADA/Rimless tank, they just have that elegance and simplicity to them that tickles your visual cortex in just the right way
> 
> Read through all of the set up posts, didn't go much passed that though; it's 4:30am and I've had a beer or two. You've definitely got everything down, I'm expecting a top notch scape. On a side note, I really like your writing style. I took an East Asian art course last semester at TCNJ and it was nice to see someone actively incorporating Wabi-Sabi aesthetics... fleeting beauty, transient imperfection, that feeling of slight melancholy because you know nothing lasts forever... it's also why I prefer Iwagumi.
> 
> ...


Thanks on all fronts  I'll do my best at achieving at sense of Wabi-Sabi: it is what I'm striving for. It's nice to see that others are attracted to something other than our western ideal. I've been practicing a lot of arrangements, but of course everything will change when I get the dirt in there.

I like the 120-H of course, the dimensions are ideal proportionally. It is the same dimensions as my 90 gallon was, so my major issue is my comfort level with the height. I suppose I could get around it eventually, but was that worth another few hundred bucks? Maybe next time, haha...

My process for creating scapes is pretty much the same as for my designs in the theatre. John Cleese has some pretty great things to say about creativity and developing that process here: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VShmtsLhkQg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Good stuff. 

Oh, also - huge NIN fan here.

Tank arrives Friday. I've chewed my nails to the quick. Need a distraction. Skyrim? Yes, please.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

green_valley said:


> Woowwww, all the scapes look amazing. But I would vote for number 2 with the adjustment of the big rock on the left might be too center. Other than that, it look fantastic


Thanks green_valley! I think the rocks make it easy. They have a ton of character. There are a lot of fine adjustments I won't be able to make until I get some power sand under there. I might mix the power sand a bit with small lava rock just to give it more mass. Tom Barr suggested this in another thread. I did that with my 120 after having some substrate issues in the 90 (the clown car scape resulted in anaerobic substrate) and it worked really well to fill out the hills. It will also help hold the rocks in place as the AS is super light and just slips about under the rocks when I angle them steeply.


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

I give a really strong urging towards one. That's a sick layout. IMO, the second two don't even touch the first.


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## kwheeler91 (May 26, 2009)

jcgd said:


> I give a really strong urging towards one. That's a sick layout. IMO, the second two don't even touch the first.


 I second that notion


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

...they're heeeeeere...


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Photobucket is doing site maintenance right now and I'm tired, so no pics tonight. Hard scape is installed, substrate is as well. All I need is water and plants.

This tank is gorgeous. No pictures can do it justice. Even my wife was impressed with the clarity. I sat and stared at it empty for about an hour. Then I got thirsty. Then stared at it some more. Now, under the lights, I'm just happy that it's here. 

You know what? Even the funky blue stand doesn't look so bad with this tank on top, haha...


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## green_valley (Sep 14, 2011)

theblondskeleton said:


> Thanks green_valley! I think the rocks make it easy. They have a ton of character. There are a lot of fine adjustments I won't be able to make until I get some power sand under there. I might mix the power sand a bit with small lava rock just to give it more mass. Tom Barr suggested this in another thread. I did that with my 120 after having some substrate issues in the 90 (the clown car scape resulted in anaerobic substrate) and it worked really well to fill out the hills. It will also help hold the rocks in place as the AS is super light and just slips about under the rocks when I angle them steeply.


I love those rocks. Yeah, to me powersand is overprice. All of my scape with high hills/mountain use lava rocks and so far have been perfectly fine. Yup, they will hold pretty good. Can't wait to see more pictures.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Thanks, Green_valley, me too! The wait is over!

Here is the setup.










The stone with Power Sand and lava rock. The layout is a combination of what I thought were the best elements of Crane and Turtle and 5-Stone, with some modifications. The choice was the approval of my wife (the real commander around here) and my own preference of layout. I really liked the flow and triangular composition of Crane and Turtle, so I tried to emulate that with this one. I separated the layout into two groups of stones, and added some small accent stones to balance it out more. I'm still considering adding two more very small pieces. 

I built up the back to about 8” to create a nice slope. The depth it has created is pretty incredible. I always thought that too steep would look funky, but now that I see it, I’m hooked. I thought it would look like a wall of substrate, but from my viewing throne on the couch, it looks fantastic, and I'm able to see all the way to the back of the tank. I could go steeper with a different layout. Perhaps in the future…

Trivia: I'm a theatre director, designer, practitioner, teacher, etc. So, historically stages were built with a rake or "slope". This was so that the audience could see the actors and scenery all the way to the back of the stage. Nowadays, they rake the audience instead - too many actors literally "breaking a leg" as they crossed DOWN stage, I suppose. It seems to me with this knowledge, I would have recognized the benefit of a steeply raked substrate sooner.

Moving on...










And the final hard scape with substrate in place. 










I had more pics from the process, but other threads have done this better, so I’ll just describe it briefly.

Base: Lava rock for large stone stability, Power Sand Special M. Set lava rocks with some AS, and then placed the stone. When stones were set, I filled around it with Power Sand, focusing on the back of the slope.

Middle layer: ADA New Aquasoil Amazonia. Much redder than the old stuff when it’s dry. Pretty. I filled in the planting areas with AS, making sure to not completely bury the stones, as I still needed to cap this with Powder.

Top Layer: ADA Aquasoil Powder Type. For this, I focused mostly on installing it in the foreground areas where there will be large quantities of HC, but the whole tank got at least 1/4" of it. The stems in the back do not need the fine textured substrate so much, but HC really benefits from a finer substrate. I layered it about 1-½ inches deep in the front. 

The next thing I did before I moistened the substrate for the evening was to sculpt the rolling hills the way I’d like them to be. I used my sand scraper for this. One could just as easily use a paint scraper or spackling knife or anything thin and flat. I think this step is important in a larger Iwagumi, especially with HC as the foreground, as the lines of the rolling hills greatly contribute to the composition. It also lends more detail to a large-scale scape that would otherwise be flat, less dynamic, and thus less interesting to look at. It also creates the illusion of sedimentary buildup when you taper the substrate up to a rock. Use the lines of the rock to help suggest the flow of the water around it by building up the sediment as ridges and valleys. 

That said, you can’t really see it in the pics, haha… it will be more evident when it grows in.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Tank looks sick. I think that scape combines the best elements of your trial scapes (IMO) while presenting great texture in the stone (some of your scapes had stones turned around that looked like the other side had less texture). 

Love it. 

Side note...I wish I thought about the lava rock on my last scape.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

While I await the arrival of my plants and Amanos (they will go into a holding tank until the tank cycles), I thought I’d share a bit more about process. We spend a lot of time here shooting pics of equipment, substrate additives, gadgets and doo-dads, but we rarely ever get a glimpse of good procedures for preparing plants for insertion into the scape. I have developed a few techniques over the years that I find very effective in doing a large-scale planting such as what I’ll be doing later today. 

With 2 square feet of HC to prepare, it will be essential to the quality of my personal health that I make it easy for myself. I do not want to walk around like Montgomery Burns for the rest of the week, and Quasimodo already has the market cornered on famous singing hunchbacks.

Here is an overview of how I prep my planting area. Some may just hack at it with a devil-may-care sense of whimsy - limbs akimbo and roots flying about like a swarm of Africanized bees - but I find that being able to locate my spring scissors whenever I need them leaves me much more time and head space to focus on creatively composing my layout. Your results may vary. Here’s what I do.

Surfaces

I need a long flat one where I can sit, and a high flat one where I can access things while planting. Today, I have a sheet of melamine about 5’x2’ stretched across two cubical ottomans. Works just fine unless the cat gets spooked and rockets across the room taking my entire batch of veggies with her. I’ll hope this doesn’t happen.

The taller one doesn’t need to be as big, but it needs to be able to hold at least a few things, some of which are pictured below.

Scaping Tools










From left to right: Large SS pinsettes, needle-nosed SS pinsettes, SS spring scissors, (all courtesy of Rumford Aquatics) Fiskars spring scissors, Cheap-o Chinese-made chrome-plated pot metal pinsettes, pro scissors, curved pro scissors, angled pinsettes, sand scraper, and shrimp net.

I use each of these tools while scaping or trimming, remarkably. My newest set is the SS tools from Rumford Aquatics. These are pretty awesome and the quality is far superior to the cheap-o Chinese ones (though these have lasted me 5 years with an initial investment of $30 for the set).

The large pinsettes will be for planting stems and heavier-rooted plants like crypts. The needle-nosed are specifically for smaller rooted plants like HC. I knew this would be a trial of endurance. I have planted large plots of HC before, and it is exceedingly fatiguing, so I wanted something that would keep it enjoyable. These are incredibly low-strain, and the fine points will create little disturbance of the AS Powder.

The spring scissors are for trimming, like all the others. The Fiskars can be very helpful in trimming large stands of stems and hairgrass. They are still extremely sharp and shiny, even though they have been used for many years.

The net is for catching shrimp. And stray HC during trims.

Plant Storage and Prep

Here is where I took notes from Amano’s videos online.

Step One: Hire a dozen Japanese college kids to frantically run about and prep your plants for you. Make sure they hand you the right plants exactly when you need them.

There you go.

Just kidding.

However, I can take some tips from what they show in the Sumida Aquarium videos. My long table is for plant prep. So are these: 










10 for 10 bucks (puppy not included). Plastic shoe bins with lids. The bins can hold plants in water for temporary storage until I get to them, and the lids can be used to stage the prepared plants. I’ll photograph this when I get there, so it makes more sense. I’ll trim the HC into 1cm plugs and lay them out on the lids so I can access them easily while planting them. I’ll do the same with my other plants, the hairgrass, stems, and riccia.

Sundries

Sundries.










Fishing line fro the riccia, hoses, zip ties. Things I find I need at random.

The Sprayer

So, Amano uses hoses with garden sprayers to keep plants moist during a long planting, but I won’t have the water pressure to make this possible (I age my water in a barrel upstairs. Gravity feeds it to my tank.) Oliver Knott uses a different approach for his seminars. He uses a pump sprayer. I thought this was genius. I’ve used regular sprayers in the past, but they are fatiguing after a lot of planting, and they are low-capacity. They are always falling apart and breaking/dripping all over the place. Also, my wife keeps abducting them to use as window cleaners. Not very healthy for plants or fish. 

She won’t get this one.










Intended for herbicide and other unpleasant nastiness, it’s really well-built, pump-pressurized, high-capacity and very easy to use with an adjustable stream. Best of all it was only $6 at the Big Orange Box. There are more expensive ones, but this one is good quality and the right price/size for my needs.

So, there are the prep materials. I’ll post more about how I use them when the stinkin’ plants arrive. I need to call to find out what’s up…


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

It appears that the company I ordered my plants from neglected to send them to me. This makes me quite angry. To be continued when I receive a reply...


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

:confused1: Well... hopefully that doesn't happen often. Nice little setup. I'm the kinda guy who just gets the ball rolling, and looses my tweezer three minutes into the planting session. And then finds them a week later in the the back pocket of the jeans I was wearing. My gf asks why I always work in my tank now wearing only boxers. :icon_roll

That way I have nowhere to hide tools from myself.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

jcgd said:


> :confused1: Well... hopefully that doesn't happen often. Nice little setup. I'm the kinda guy who just gets the ball rolling, and looses my tweezer three minutes into the planting session. And then finds them a week later in the the back pocket of the jeans I was wearing. My gf asks why I always work in my tank now wearing only boxers. :icon_roll
> 
> That way I have nowhere to hide tools from myself.


Haha, I've done this a few times myself. Once I found them in the trash. Not even sure how that happened.

As for the plants, I'm more annoyed at this point. I've had issues with these folks in the past, but they are pretty good about making good on mistakes. Nevertheless, it throws my schedule off quite a bit. I'll be out of town next weekend, so it will make water changes difficult at best. That is, if they arrive before then. As it is, I won't get a reply for a few days do I'm a bit stuck. In the meantime, I have a damp and empty tank. I just hope everything will be ok until I get to plant.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

talontsiawd said:


> Tank looks sick. I think that scape combines the best elements of your trial scapes (IMO) while presenting great texture in the stone (some of your scapes had stones turned around that looked like the other side had less texture).
> 
> Love it.
> 
> Side note...I wish I thought about the lava rock on my last scape.


Thanks, I'm glad you think so  I'm very happy with it. The picture is pretty dark, but you can see the cave in the main stone, and all of the great lines in it. I think this is very balanced without being symmetrical. Can't wait for plants!!


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

A couple of things I keep forgetting: 

First, a huge thanks to Frank at ADG for his patience and service. This guy is great at relating with and taking care of his customers, while maintaining a great presence here on the forum and contributing to our growth as aquarium hobbyists. Your threads are always informative and I look forward to more of them! You are the man! It has inspired me to use this thread as a means of sharing my tricks that it might help others find more enjoyment in the hobby as well.

Second, the prize for the best poorly translated line I've read in a while.

"ADA is not responsible for the crack problem of the Aquarium."

Apparently they are taking a very hands-off approach to substance abuse in their aquariums. 

This was in the instruction booklet for the 120P.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Plants are due to arrive tomorrow morning! By sunset tomorrow, I'll have this bad boy 90% planted. Then, I just need some DHG Belem to finish it off. I've added mini pellia to my plant list just to get a darker color in there, and I have a ton of it in another tank. Should make things fairly nice tomorrow. I have planted what little DHG I had already, but it looks very lonely in there.it has, however, made me very excited to get some more!

I think I'll start prepping things today just to save energy tomorrow. It's going to be a very long planting session with all that HC.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Plants arrived at 9:30 AM, and I immediately tore into it like an 8-year-old at an unsupervised Christmas tree. Pulled out the Amano shrimp to acclimate – 10 DOA’s. Nearly half of my order! The water was so foul I nearly vomited. I cannot believe anyone who cares about their animals would keep them in conditions like that. It smelled like a latrine.

Aside from that, the plants looked good. No Hydrocotyle sibthorpioides, however. This made me sad. I’ll have to track some down. Anyone who wants some Hydrocotyle verticillata can peek into the S&S next week – it’ll be there, along with (unless I get a huge die-off) about a 4x9” mat of HC. It’s gorgeous ☺

So, I got to work. Always plant your low-growing plants first, so I got to work on the HC – 2 full square feet of it. This took many, many hours. The rest was a single hour altogether, but it is now 7:00 PM PST, and I just sat down. Here is my work area.










I found my old sushi platters and used them instead of my plastic lids. They are a little heavier, but only enough to make it more stable in my clumsy hands. Peeling the HC from the coir fiber, dividing it into little plugs, and planting in shifts, it took me an hour to do this:










More peeling, dividing, plugging. I really have to personally thank Rumford Aquatics for these needle-nose pincettes. They are freaking amazing. I would not have made this without them. Best purchase ever.










After a couple of hours, things were taking shape. I had a nice rhythm going, and I had only had one massive cramp in my neck!










Deep into the second square foot of HC…










Ok. Enough torture. Here’s what you came for. Hell, here’s what I came for! I am very proud of this scape. Others may not approve, or it may not be their style, but that’s fine. This is exactly the picture I had in my mind when I set out to achieve five years ago when I started in this hobby. 

My wife said, “Holy crap – it’s beautiful!” She’s usually much more patronizing than that, so I think I did ok.

Water isn’t totally clear yet, and there are some floaters yet, but as things root and adjust, it will straighten itself out. I decided against mini pellia, and went with a few rocks with weeping moss on them. I had a bunch in another tank. It anchors an otherwise very light foreground and provides transition between the rocks and HC. The hairgrass has been trimmed, and I need more DHG “belem” in front of the cave. Ta-daaa!


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## 2in10 (Feb 8, 2011)

Great looking scape


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

2in10 said:


> Great looking scape


Thanks


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

truly amazing. How do you like the HC on the mat vs in the pots?


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## green_valley (Sep 14, 2011)

I love it I love it I love it. nice Nice Nice...............well done.


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

Wow, that's really nice looking. I can't wait for the ?rotala? to fill out and get trimmed into bushes. Too bad about those Amanos. I've never has issues with shipped fish. Was the water used to ship just not clean to start?


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## BoxxerBoyDrew (Oct 16, 2005)

AWESOME POST! Thank you for posting in detail about how you setup for a long planting sessions as well as the other info you provided! I will be looking forward to seeing this tank fill in!

Thanks Again!
Drew


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## salmon (Apr 14, 2011)

Beautiful everything! Setup, scape and planting is just top notch, well done. This should grow into am amazing aquascape


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## NWA-Planted (Aug 27, 2011)

excuse me while I go get the napkin to cleaan up my drool!!!

Gosh makes me realize how little "eye" I have with my scaping abilities thus far... I am really going to to have to practice... A LOT


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Sorry for the delay, I was out for the weekend.



IWANNAGOFAST said:


> truly amazing. How do you like the HC on the mat vs in the pots?


Thanks! Its about the same labor-wise. Either you're picking rock wool out of the roots or the coir fiber. The quantity for the price was great, and it is also emersed-grown. There were some melted sections when it arrived, but nothing unexpected. HC is still very laborious to plant, however. I now understand why Amano invented the Wabi-Kusa, haha...



green_valley said:


> I love it I love it I love it. nice Nice Nice...............well done.


Thanks bro! Backbreaking labor: justified!



jcgd said:


> Wow, that's really nice looking. I can't wait for the ?rotala? to fill out and get trimmed into bushes. Too bad about those Amanos. I've never has issues with shipped fish. Was the water used to ship just not clean to start?


Thanks - yeah it's rotala indica. I lost five more Amanos over the weekend. I'm never getting shrimp from these guys again. The water was super foul when it arrived. it was so clouded that you couldn't see through the bag, and it smelled so bad I gagged when I opened it. I think they just don't care for their shrimp well. From now on, I purchase from hobbyists only. This was absurd.



BoxxerBoyDrew said:


> AWESOME POST! Thank you for posting in detail about how you setup for a long planting sessions as well as the other info you provided! I will be looking forward to seeing this tank fill in!
> 
> Thanks Again!
> Drew


Thanks, and you're welcome! Tanks this size and bigger a pretty exhausting to plant, especially with such small plants as HC. I just hope my maintenance skills are up to the challenge!



salmon said:


> Beautiful everything! Setup, scape and planting is just top notch, well done. This should grow into am amazing aquascape


Thanks - I'm looking forward to how things grow in. I may replace some things over time - the DHG might get replaced pretty early if I don't like what it's doing - but for the most part, this is a good starting point!



NWA-Planted said:


> excuse me while I go get the napkin to cleaan up my drool!!!
> 
> Gosh makes me realize how little "eye" I have with my scaping abilities thus far... I am really going to to have to practice... A LOT


Haha, thanks! It tok a lot of practice and some hard critique of my own work, and there are still flaws in this layout I have taken note of, but I very much like this scape. Time and practice are good!

I came back home after a camping trip, and the plants are all pearling nicely. There are places where the HC was dead when I planted it, but aside from that, it looks like everything is transitioning very well. My CO2 setup is an atomic inline diffuser on the filter, and an atomic diffuser at the opposite end of the tank. This way I get a super-fine mist of CO2 at both ends. HC devours CO2, so success here will hinge on keeping enough of it in there to keep all of the plants happy.

The rotala indica came submersed-grown and nicely bronzed by the sun - I'm hoping to maintain that color, but that might require some toying with light. This is exactly the soft warm color I wanted in the background. Nothing too loud and red, but just a little touch of pink/orange/gold. With 3-4 trimmings, it will shape up nicely. I won't trim for a few weeks, though, so the roots have time to establish well. My moss is taking off, as it was already pretty well established in the other tank. It seems to like the extra CO2. I've never seen it bounce back so fast after a trim before.

I need to start tomorrow with a water-change to catch up on lost time. I should have been doing one every day, but as I was gone that was not going to happen. No worries. I'll fix it!


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

Epic. Subscribed and hello from WSU!!


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## Riverboa (Mar 18, 2009)

Great start. Love the rocks. 

One unsolicited advice if you don't mind. Those HG is going to take over the tank soon and eventually will uproot your HC carpet. Not saying that the tank won't look good with HG carpet but if you want to keep the HC, then the HG need to go now.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

styxx said:


> Epic. Subscribed and hello from WSU!!


Thanks! Welcome! And go Cougs!


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Riverboa said:


> Great start. Love the rocks.
> 
> One unsolicited advice if you don't mind. Those HG is going to take over the tank soon and eventually will uproot your HC carpet. Not saying that the tank won't look good with HG carpet but if you want to keep the HC, then the HG need to go now.


Well, the HC should keep it in check as long as its trimmed, but I am considering replacing it with the 'Belem' variety anyhow. The lower maintenance appeals to my winter schedule. It's way too early to say anything, however. I'll ride it out for a bit and see how it goes. If it begins to uproot like you say, you'll be the first to know, haha... I've dealt with e. acicularis on many occasions, so I'm familiar with its ravenous tendencies.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Incidentally, the water changes go very efficiently for this tank. 20 minutes, and I'm done. Most of that is draining. Very nice change from the 130!


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## Riverboa (Mar 18, 2009)

My experience, 

this 









becomes









I then gave up on the HC













theblondskeleton said:


> Well, the HC should keep it in check as long as its trimmed, but I am considering replacing it with the 'Belem' variety anyhow. The lower maintenance appeals to my winter schedule. It's way too early to say anything, however. I'll ride it out for a bit and see how it goes. If it begins to uproot like you say, you'll be the first to know, haha... I've dealt with e. acicularis on many occasions, so I'm familiar with its ravenous tendencies.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Wow that really is a shame, Riverboa. What a nice tank! Trim the heck out of that DHG, and it'll still look good though the HC was nice too.

Like I said before, I've dealt with this stuff many times. In the past, I've had success just plucking it like an errant eyebrow hair when it pops up where it doesn't belong. It looks like it found some tiny gaps in your HC and took advantage of them. DHG can send long runners under other plants - sometimes surprising distances. It's a little demanding (weekly DHG pluckings, and mowing down for height - the cleanup after is the worst part, haha), but it works well for me. One just needs to be very aggressive with it.


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

*Humble Pie*



theblondskeleton said:


> Wow that really is a shame, Riverboa. What a nice tank! Trim the heck out of that DHG, and it'll still look good though the HC was nice too.
> 
> Like I said before, I've dealt with this stuff many times. In the past, I've had success just plucking it like an errant eyebrow hair when it pops up where it doesn't belong. It looks like it found some tiny gaps in your HC and took advantage of them. DHG can send long runners under other plants - sometimes surprising distances. It's a little demanding (weekly DHG pluckings, and mowing down for height - the cleanup after is the worst part, haha), but it works well for me. One just needs to be very aggressive with it.


I had Giant Hair Grass as a background plant a long time ago. It was a very slow grower, but after about 6 months, I noticed some new leaves growing up into my HC and they were like *4 inches* away from the back! I was like WTH!? Then I proceeded to start trimming and up rooting and I realized the trouble I was in. I think the only way to prevent this type of propagation is to embed a plastic barrier wall in the substrate (and even then it may still have a chance to escape). Had I known that in the beginning I would have put one in place. You live and you learn I guess.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

styxx said:


> I had Giant Hair Grass as a background plant a long time ago. It was a very slow grower, but after about 6 months, I noticed some new leaves growing up into my HC and they were like *4 inches* away from the back! I was like WTH!? Then I proceeded to start trimming and up rooting and I realized the trouble I was in. I think the only way to prevent this type of propagation is to embed a plastic barrier wall in the substrate (and even then it may still have a chance to escape). Had I known that in the beginning I would have put one in place. You live and you learn I guess.


Wow! I love the look of e. montevidensis, and fortunately it grows much slower than e. acicularis but that sounds like some insidious spreading, haha...

1 week update!

Sorry for the totally crooked shot. My tripod is having issues, haha...










Looks like everything is growing in nicely, and the march of the diatoms begins  I started cycling this tank a couple weeks before I got plants, so it should be just about right for some shrimp and otos. I'll add my surviving Amanos today, and the otos in a day or two - after I double check nitrates for safety. I have more Amanos on the way next week 

The rotala has just taken off, growing an impressive 3" in the first week! It looks to be staying nice and bronzed, and pearls wicked fast when it gets rolling. 










The moss is where the diatoms came from. It dragged it in from the other tank, I presume. *sigh* oh, well - food for shrimpies!










The DHG is coming in like a storm as well, bouncing back from the trim in true form. Here is some DHG Belem with it's cousin looming in the background, waiting to pounce and devour.


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

Doesn't look like anything that time won't fix (provided your CO2 is high enough). I have to admit, the more I read this thread, the more I want to come to visit and steal that main rock from this tank.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

styxx said:


> Doesn't look like anything that time won't fix (provided your CO2 is high enough). I have to admit, the more I read this thread, the more I want to come to visit and steal that main rock from this tank.


Ha! Good luck - you'd be fighting the Mrs. on that one, haha... That's her favorite part of the tank - she made me make sure she could see the cave from her place on the couch. 

That rock will be a part of my tank for years. It has so many great and wildly different characteristics. The cave can be a bowl when turned sideways, there are these crazy deep fins on the top end, and then there is all of the thick veining - whew! 

I do have a small obsession with rocks.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

"When dawn broke upon their meeting, the glossy blue eyes staring from the other side of the high-clarity glass didn't phase them. They knew he would never guess their plans. The otos slowly munched away at their diatom salad as if nothing had happened. The shrimp proceeded to massage one another's aching carapaces to conceal their malice for the Master. When he had snapped his photos and had his fill, the Master strode away proudly, thinking he had captured a rare moment of harmony in nature. The conspirators rolled their beady eyes and resumed their plotting with dutiful stoicism."


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

beautiful layout sean!


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

theblondskeleton said:


> "When dawn broke upon their meeting, the glossy blue eyes staring from the other side of the high-clarity glass didn't phase them. They knew he would never guess their plans. The otos slowly munched away at their diatom salad as if nothing had happened. The shrimp proceeded to massage one another's aching carapaces to conceal their malice for the Master. When he had snapped his photos and had his fill, the Master strode away proudly, thinking he had captured a rare moment of harmony in nature. The conspirators rolled their beady eyes and resumed their plotting with dutiful stoicism."


Hilarious, but no doubt completely accurate! :redface:


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Francis Xavier said:


> beautiful layout sean!


Thanks, Frank! Still has a lot of work ahead before it's at it's prime but that's the fun part  I look forward to maintenance on this setup like never before - pride in ownership is a big deal! The tank sparkles like a diamond. I'm still in shock that I actually have this thing!


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

DIY LED fixture parts will be here Tuesday! 

In unrelated news, first HC trim today  I hope this goes well, haha... Fish and more Amanos are in. Special thanks to msjinkzd for the Amanos - very well packaged, healthy livestock and great service! 

I still haven't heard back from the business I ordered the first batch from. With an "F" in customer service from the BBB, I should have known better. I wish there was a way to spread the word about these people. What they did to these animals is absolutely unethical, and I'm not the only one who has experienced this.


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

I'm *still* laughing about when your wife said "holy crap - it's beautiful". Classic my friend, classic.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

This hasn't disappeared, I promise  my wife and I have been doing some much-needed home improvements this past week, so the tank has been on auto-pilot.

Here's the fun scoop.

I was attempting to rig up an auto-doser for my ferts for use in the fall/winter months when I am working 16 hours a day teaching and directing/designing/building shows. Toms aqua lifter with filter and a digital timer. The timer is an idiot. Or I am. It dosed 1000ml of ferts all at once. Gaah! 

So, I lost a few Amano's to ridiculously high nitrates. A few water changes later, everything is ok.

But that isn't the frustrating part - though in retrospect it's kind of amusing (minus the tragic shrimp loss, that is). 

I am having an unprecedented battle with diatoms. Weeks of it. It just won't stop. I do not have this issue in my other tanks, and I have never seen this kind of mess before. It is un-freaking-stoppable. It has embedded itself in my AS Powder which makes me wonder if there was something wrong with the AS to begin with. More likely, it was the death of the emersed growth of HC that started it off. I cleaned out many many chunks of rotted roots and dead stems of HC, and replanted the surviving bits only to have the diatoms return as virulent and nasty as ever. 

I have never had this kind of trouble growing HC before. My CO2 is fine, as all the other plants are doing well and I have no other algae present. My nutrients are good, as I see no deficiencies in anything else.

I vacuum the brown sludge from my plants every other day (except the last few, as I was busy with renovations) and it comes back with a vengeance. It has destroyed 90% of my HC, though it seems to have little effect on my DHG Belem. It's incredibly sad to see this tank go painfully and slowly down the tubes. I have a shipment of otos coming, but I'm afraid they might be too late.

Sigh. 

Silicates? I have no idea how to measure this to find out. It's possible, I suppose. 

At any rate, I'll keep fighting until there are no plants left to defend. Then I'll go buy some sand and some plastic grass and try again next year. 

So, lessons learned from this fiasco:

1. Buy plants from Frank next time.
2. Never buy shrimp from that place in Arizona again.
3. Figure out some way to go RO.
4. Avoid digital timers. I think they are cylons (my auto-correct changed this to colons - this also applies).


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

*My $0.02*



theblondskeleton said:


> This hasn't disappeared, I promise  my wife and I have been doing some much-needed home improvements this past week, so the tank has been on auto-pilot.
> 
> Here's the fun scoop.
> 
> ...


Too bad about the shrimp loss  That sucks big time. As for diatoms, have you tried a major water change, e.g. 75%? Also, when was the last time that you did filter maintenance? I ask because if you are experiencing diatoms after doing substrate maintence and it still comes back, maybe you should clean the filter? Usually you can just wait out diatoms and they'll clear up. But the fact that you are having repeat cases, makes me suspect that something is out of whack (especially considering the HC algae infestation, which seems to confirm my suspicions). I would do both of these suggestions, refill the tank with at least 1/2 RODI and 1/2 tap and no dosing of anything but K (and maybe some Excel) for a week and see what happens. This would help reduce your silicates (which can partially be inferred by your water's TDS). If none of this fixes you problem, there are two additional options that I have used in the past that will immediately (though possibly not permanently) fix your problem. (1) install a UV and (2) run a diatomaceous earth filter. I recall in the past using a HOB Diatom filter and it literally changed a tank of dark green pea soup to crystal clear water. I was so shocked I almost had a damn stroke. Unfortunately I learned my lesson the hard way, by not realizing (and remedying) the underlying cause of over fertilizing which brought it right back a week or so later...but I digress.

As to your 4 "lessons learned" those seem very sound to me! I got burnt by that Arizona place as well and will never do business with them again, unless I have *absolutely* no choice. And yes, timers are Cylons, because mine is always plotting against me secretly. I'm constantly watching it to see what kinds of plans its going to hatch next...


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

styxx said:


> Too bad about the shrimp loss  That sucks big time. As for diatoms, have you tried a major water change, e.g. 75%? Also, when was the last time that you did filter maintenance? I ask because if you are experiencing diatoms after doing substrate maintence and it still comes back, maybe you should clean the filter? Usually you can just wait out diatoms and they'll clear up. But the fact that you are having repeat cases, makes me suspect that something is out of whack (especially considering the HC algae infestation, which seems to confirm my suspicions). I would do both of these suggestions, refill the tank with at least 1/2 RODI and 1/2 tap and no dosing of anything but K (and maybe some Excel) for a week and see what happens. This would help reduce your silicates (which can partially be inferred by your water's TDS). If none of this fixes you problem, there are two additional options that I have used in the past that will immediately (though possibly not permanently) fix your problem. (1) install a UV and (2) run a diatomaceous earth filter. I recall in the past using a HOB Diatom filter and it literally changed a tank of dark green pea soup to crystal clear water. I was so shocked I almost had a damn stroke. Unfortunately I learned my lesson the hard way, by not realizing (and remedying) the underlying cause of over fertilizing which brought it right back a week or so later...but I digress.
> 
> As to your 4 "lessons learned" those seem very sound to me! I got burnt by that Arizona place as well and will never do business with them again, unless I have *absolutely* no choice. And yes, timers are Cylons, because mine is always plotting against me secretly. I'm constantly watching it to see what kinds of plans its going to hatch next...


Fortunately, I only lost 4 shrimp - not so bad, considering how high the nitrates were at the time. 

I've done several 50%+ water changes over the weeks with no improvements. I changed out the carbon and cleaned my filter once about a week and a half ago, but I'll do it again today or tomorrow. 

I don't have an RO filter, so I'm out of luck there. I need to figure out how I can install one here at the house without upsetting the wife. I may pick up a diatom filter, though. I'm not too keen on picking up a UV, though I have 2 spare lamps just sitting around. I'll consider it. I'm more interested in addressing the root cause than just getting rid of it. H2O2 does fine wiping it out, but it just keeps coming back. Perhaps I can wait them out, but I don't think my HC will make it. If not, I'll go with something else like MM or glosso. The crazy thing is, its growing great, but the diatoms grow so much faster that it chokes it out before it has a chance to thrive. Ugh.


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

Hey Man,

I feel your pain - the problem you're experiencing is probably the weak plant stock + melting from emmersed causing mass die off / diatoms.

The good news is that the problem is easy to fix - the bad news is you're going to have to have a patient few weeks. Just keep doing what you're doing.

Also, add like 100 Amanos to the 120-P (adding this volume is healthy, sustainable and will wipe out the problem almost over night). That'll make a huge, huge dent. I wouldn't use h202 as this will cause a death spiral with hurting plant + hurting algae, algae goes away, plant isn't healthy, algae comes back, rinse repeat. 

Get with me next week, I have a large shipment of Amano's coming in, and I'd be happy to sell you 100 at a good rate.


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

Francis Xavier said:


> Hey Man,
> 
> I feel your pain - the problem you're experiencing is probably the weak plant stock + melting from emmersed causing mass die off / diatoms.
> 
> ...


Thanks for helping out Frank! Always great to hear from you on TPT! Why can't I find a plant list on your website? After reading fplata's thread, I was looking to buy some plants, but couldn't find a link!


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Francis Xavier said:


> Hey Man,
> 
> I feel your pain - the problem you're experiencing is probably the weak plant stock + melting from emmersed causing mass die off / diatoms.
> 
> ...


Thanks Frank  this is pretty much my feeling as well. I have about 20 Amanos in there and 10 more plus 25 otos on the way but I thought that might be too few to deal with it all. I'm not optimistic about the HC, so I might talk to you about some plants, too


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## rnaodm (Jun 9, 2012)

Tank looks great! I need to look more towards online orders for plants, My LFS' planted tanks have a disgusting amount of hair algae, and just over all poor selection/health.

The HC only comes in pots, and they're currently being choked to death by the hair algae.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

wow...i just red through most of your thread. I really love your tank. iTs a great inspiration for me. I am planning for a 120p in the winter/fall. thanks!


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

If you need bulk plants, just shoot me a pm and I can get a good price. The only thing I absolutely insist on is Next Day Air shipping.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

*Apocalypse "Cuba"*

I cleaned house. While I was doing a water change, I noticed the HC was listing in the breeze a bit more than I was comfortable with, and - lo and behold - when I vacuumed over it, it was quickly slurped up by the current. So, the living portion of the plants were healthy, but only what could grow above the algae. The rest suffocated and rotted, perpetuating more algae. This was about all I could take, so I vacuumed the entire foreground. about 80% rotted, in the end. I had a small batch of healthy plants that were about 1/4" - 1" in size, but I had lost my patience. I tossed it all.

After the foreground scouring, I had a bit of an ammonia spike (naturally) and had a brief battle with some staghorn. I'm hoping this has passed. Currently getting some small spots of BBA, and I think it is a flow issue - maybe just need more CO2. I'll re-install the atomic diffusor on the opposite end of the tank to see how that works.

So, here we are post-apocalypse "Cuba".










Sorry for the white-balance and overexposure issues - I'm still trying to get a grip on photographing my LED lights. I just didn't take a lot of time with it. Also regarding the light, I raised it up more as I wasn't getting acceptable coverage in the back corners, and it seems to have fixed the issue. The rotala back there is bouncing back quite well. I'm having no issues getting it to color up with these lights, either. This was a good investment 

I'm ok with this current direction, though very upset that I ended up spending so much money on what was essentially 70-80 stems of rotala.

I re-arranged things. The DHG Belem was doing quite well, so I spread it out a bit. I may just use this as my foreground, as it is pretty low-maintenance, and it's a very good looking plant. It doesn't really give the feel I was after, but I'm really running out of time to get this tank into some form of stability before the school year starts, and I have no time to do that level of adjustment. As it is, this tank has taken more of my time than I anticipated with the terribly weak plant stock.

My Hydrocotyle sibthorpioides is another that is doing quite well. I can't stop the stuff, so I'm cultivating a patch of it in the foreground. I might even let it take over, if it works out well.

As for replacement of the HC, I'm probably going to hunt down some glosso or MM, and keep it limited to the center foreground area.

Or, I might just remove the AS and install some sand. Could be interesting.


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

theblondskeleton said:


> I cleaned house. While I was doing a water change, I noticed the HC was listing in the breeze a bit more than I was comfortable with, and - lo and behold - when I vacuumed over it, it was quickly slurped up by the current. So, the living portion of the plants were healthy, but only what could grow above the algae. The rest suffocated and rotted, perpetuating more algae. This was about all I could take, so I vacuumed the entire foreground. about 80% rotted, in the end. I had a small batch of healthy plants that were about 1/4" - 1" in size, but I had lost my patience. I tossed it all.
> 
> After the foreground scouring, I had a bit of an ammonia spike (naturally) and had a brief battle with some staghorn. I'm hoping this has passed. Currently getting some small spots of BBA, and I think it is a flow issue - maybe just need more CO2. I'll re-install the atomic diffusor on the opposite end of the tank to see how that works.
> 
> ...


Ironic that we both are struggling with the same challenges at the same time. I'm having this damn brown dust algae everywhere and I just bought some Amanos to deal with it. And I also switched my CO2 atomizer to the opposite side of my tank. I wonder if it will change anything, lol? I'm still undecided about my foreground, but I'm probably going with some lileopsis M. for now and see how I feel about it later, lol. My only concern about your aquarium is the sand option - not really something that I prefer and it's rarely done well. Plus, after investing in all that Aquasoil, why pass up the opportunity to use it NOW while it's leaching the ammonia and still has some structural integrity to it? My experience has always been that once one starts to move it around and scoping it out, etc. it beings to break down (especially if its been submerged for a few months)...that's something that you'll probably want to avoid. Just my $0.02 worth.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Thanks, styxx  always good to have someone to share the misery with, haha! I won't do sand with this layout - that was just a musing. I'd have to redo the whole structure of the stone, etc, and I'm not up for that for a while. I've never had issues reusing AS before, with the exception of one batch that pretty much dissolved after the first use. That was right before they released the new stuff. This batch is good. I'll probably use it for a long time 

So my maintenance right now is at one hour twice a week to deal with the brown sludge. I made a boo-boo and added too much P, and ended up with about 6 kinds of algae. That was part of the maintenance today. BBA is spreading, so I reduced the lights and severely reduced my moonlighting. I added a power head to aid in circulation. Sadly, I believe my filter is on the way out. Any suggestions for a filter on this? Considering an eheim this time around. Would love a superjet  no bones for now, however.

All that said, my plants are actually in great shape. My stems are super healthy all the way to the roots, the hair grass is spreading, and the hydro is unstoppable. I would just use it as a foreground, but I'm noticing it uproots very easily until it's well established. Hope the sludge disappears soon!


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Oh and give the lilaeopsis mauritiana a shot. It's a great plant


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

theblondskeleton said:


> Oh and give the lilaeopsis mauritiana a shot. It's a great plant


Oh don't worry I am!


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

I don't want to jump the gun, here, but it appears I have dealt the algae the death blow.

My last post was immediately after spending about an hour de-sludging, trimming algae-infested leaves, spot-treating vacuuming, re-planting, etc. The process I used to get her went as such.

The night before I cleaned, I dosed 50ml of 3% H2O2, then went to bed. I woke up the next day, and before the lights came on I shut off the filter and spot-treated another 50ml of 3% H2O2 on the worst of the algae (staghorn, thread, diatoms, BBA, you name it - it was there). I ate breakfast. I let the H2O2 go to work.

After a few, I started to remove the diatoms with a 1/2" hose. this process always ends up uprooting some plants, which I have thus far used to replant and spread my existing plots (after trimming and cleaning, of course). the next 45 minutes was spent meticulously seeking and destroying all algae I could find. I was relentless, and unafraid to throw away anything that was too far gone. After cleaning, I refilled the tank while cleaning my filter floss. I also increased my CO2 a bit, repositioned my filter outlet, and reduced my moonlights (I believe this was the source of the BBA and staghorn issues). Finally, I restored filtration and CO2 and as a coup de grace I dosed 50ml of Excel.

3 days later, algae free (well, 90%), healthy plants, happy fishies and shrimpies. The 10% algae that isn't gone is what was deeply nested in the stems and will be removed at the next water change/trim. I want the stems to grow some more before I sculpt them.

I plan to add some more plants to cover transitional areas, and to repopulate my foreground. I like the hydrocotyle sibthorpioides, but it is too large to keep me happy. looking for some other options.

That said, I'm quite relieved. School starts in a week, and this was getting down to the wire, haha...


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

Awesome! I feel your pain - school started here yesterday and it was literally a madhouse! Glad to hear that you've finally gotten the algae situation under control!


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Thanks  the tank is a little wild right now, but it's looking much closer to what I want! I think I'll go glosso or elatine triandra if I can find any to replace the foreground. The hydrocotyle is the wrong texture for these stones.









My wife and daughter and I redesigned our living room/kitchen to a more contemporary color scheme, and the tank stand color really does its job now. It practically disappears, and almost all of the focus is on the scape. The power head will disappear once I get a new filter so I can go back to having very little equipment in there. Also the light stand needs to be toned down. I could go white with it, and it would blend with the rest of the decor. Not very ADA, but it would fit my color scheme better. The current color does no work at all. 

The bonus is that the wall behind my tank is now light blue. With it a foot away from the back of my tank I can do some interesting lighting effects


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## izabella87 (Apr 21, 2012)

Let it fill up and u can definitely win a world contest with this tank !


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

I agree about the foreground decision, but you've got some serious stem growth going on in the back! wow.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

izabella87 said:


> Let it fill up and u can definitely win a world contest with this tank !


Thanks  very kind of you!

Styx: no kidding about the stems! Rotala indica is about the easiest plant to grow, but it's very dense and wild. The tips are pink and the stems are super healthy all the way to the substrate


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

What's that? Glosso and Riccia you say? Excellent carpet choice!


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Haha... I agree, Frank. That sounds like a plan


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)




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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

It's better now, keep up with the trimming to export the rest of the algae and watch new growth carefully.

ET will work nicely as a BRIGHT green and easier, more like a stem plant to trim and move around, gloss needs mowed. 

You might consider a Vuppa in place of the powerhead and place it in the rear corner, it has a small powerhead in it and will add some more flow and remove any scum.

If you want to stay with the ADA theme, which I would suggest here.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Thanks for the tips, Tom! I'll keep on that. The last thing I want is to have a resurgence of that mess.

I agree about the Vuppa - I have actually been eyeballing it for a while. Neat little gadget, and it'll fit right in. The power head definitely needs to go, though - not terribly attractive.


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

theblondskeleton said:


> Thanks for the tips, Tom! I'll keep on that. The last thing I want is to have a resurgence of that mess.
> 
> I agree about the Vuppa - I have actually been eyeballing it for a while. Neat little gadget, and it'll fit right in. The power head definitely needs to go, though - not terribly attractive.


All I can say about the Vuppa is that I'm in love with mine. I currently have it on my 20L and it works amazingly.


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## crazydaz (Mar 18, 2007)

I love the pic from 8/21/12!! Really nice tank, and it'll be a real knockout when the foreground finishes filling in, especially the ET!!! Great work bro!!


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

freph said:


> All I can say about the Vuppa is that I'm in love with mine. I currently have it on my 20L and it works amazingly.


I have my eye on it as well...ADA just keeps inventing things to spend my hard earned dollars on, lol!


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

So, here's the latest:









Sorry, I've gone to my iPhone pics because it's less involved. I'll do better shots when things look prettier.

I have temporarily adopted the hydrocotyle sibthorpioides as my foreground, mostly because it cannot be stopped. It doesn't look horrible, but it's not really the look I'm going for.

The diatoms have gone the way of the dodo, but I have a new nemesis. The short type of green hair algae is picking up where diatoms left off (you can see it on the rocks and hair grass, center). I've increased my ferts and decreased my light and it's stable at the moment, so I'm watching for recession (algal, not economic). I'm a little worried for the hair grass, but if it has been rebalanced, it'll be ok. This stuff does not respond to H2O2 or Excel, so I'm stuck with it until the shrimp and Otos clean it up. 

I admit I have been playing with my ferts a bit. I used to run PPS pretty successfully. I tried EI, but apparently messed it up somehow. Also felt bad about throwing so much nitrate down the drain. Both are great and get results. I just want a more intimate personal understanding lot how my plants take up nutrients. I want to take more notice of what they look like as they need certain things, how much to add when they do, etc. mostly, I just want a better understanding of my fertilizers. So, I made my own N, P, and K solutions and can dose whatever ppm I want. This way I can dial in what my plants consume. I recognize this as an area of weakness for me, so I want to get better at it.

So basically, dealing with this algae is part of that. Obviously a deficiency of something, so I'm trying to fix it  

At the moment I'm dosing 10ppm N and K per day using KNO3 and KH2PO4. Also dosing 1 cap of Flourish comprehensive every other day. I could probably use some iron in there too. We'll see how this holds up.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Oh, I forgot to mention I replaced the rock in the right center foreground with what appears to be the whitest piece of seiryu in the western hemisphere. Hoping it will age a touch darker, haha! If not I'll swap it out. The other rock was the wrong texture. I knew this when I put it in, but it just kept bugging me.


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

theblondskeleton said:


> Oh, I forgot to mention I replaced the rock in the right center foreground with what appears to be the whitest piece of seiryu in the western hemisphere. Hoping it will age a touch darker, haha! If not I'll swap it out. The other rock was the wrong texture. I knew this when I put it in, but it just kept bugging me.


I know your pain. It's so hard to get the right stone these days! I wish I could just walk into a store and have all shapes, sizes and varieties of Seriyu stone (and other stone) to pick from at my disposal. I'd spend so much money, I'd leave in debt, lol. I'm sure of it. Anyway, does this mean that your old stone is up for purchase?! hahaha :tongue:


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## green_valley (Sep 14, 2011)

Scape looks very nice. Trimming is also great. Good luck with your ferts, hopefully you will get it balanced out. Btw, do you keep on trimming and replanting? or just trimming and trimming without replanting them?

Thanks


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

I just hack it down. If you uproot, it just disturbs the substrate. There is no need to unless you really want to maintain your tops. Not really worth it in my opinion. I've done both, and this is just easier to maintain the shape I want. Plus, this way the bush gets thicker an fuller. If I need to thin it out, I just trim it a little lower than usual.

Styxx, if there was a rock house locally that carried seiryu, I'd swim it like Scrooge McDuck!


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

You and I both!


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

There is a lot of green fuzzy stuff on my rocks! Reducing light duration from 10 to 8 hours, increasing ferts and CO2.

It's kind of pretty as it waves in the current, but it is smothering my plants. Grr... Trimmed everything down. Rotala is unstoppable. Looking at this, I think it would look better if the hydro were on the upper level and the grass on the lower front and up the center. I may do this if I get time. Sadly, my schedule goes bonkers this week, so I'll be an infrequent visitor for a while. I'll try to post progress when I have time!

View attachment 53662


(accidentally posted this in my light build thread. Oh well- probably relevant anyway)


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## Marconis (Nov 8, 2010)

I just read the entire thread; your story was a fun read. I really like your current scape.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Thanks, Marconis!


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

theblondskeleton said:


> There is a lot of green fuzzy stuff on my rocks! Reducing light duration from 10 to 8 hours, increasing ferts and CO2.
> 
> It's kind of pretty as it waves in the current, but it is smothering my plants. Grr... Trimmed everything down. Rotala is unstoppable. Looking at this, I think it would look better if the hydro were on the upper level and the grass on the lower front and up the center. I may do this if I get time. Sadly, my schedule goes bonkers this week, so I'll be an infrequent visitor for a while. I'll try to post progress when I have time!
> 
> ...


Generally, I tend to reduce the lighting intensity rather than the photoperiod, though that is equally good remedy if intensity isn't adjustable. Increasing CO2 can help but reducing ferts is my usual tactic under the logic that > ferts = > food for algae. Hang in there!!


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

I can adjust the intensity, but that does reduce the color in my rotala. It also didn't do anything about the algae. I think I'll give it a 2-hr full blast burst and fade it in and out. See if I can get my color back and avoid the algae.CO2 is pretty good- no algae that would denote an issue there (bba, staghorn, etc) just the really short green hair algae. It has since stopped advancing, and may even be in retreat. However, this means that I'm not sure which of the measures I took have yielded fruit, haha... This is why they suggest altering only a single variable when treating for this stuff.

I'm an artist not a scientist, haha!

I'm having fun with it, anyway. Sometimes the issues are frustrating, but when it comes down to it: I have my dream tank. So I get over it pretty quickly. I find I grumble less, curse less, rarely get truly pissed, and spend much time on my couch staring with a goofy grin. Not half bad considering where I was a year ago.

It's always darkest before dawn.


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

theblondskeleton said:


> I can adjust the intensity, but that does reduce the color in my rotala. It also didn't do anything about the algae. I think I'll give it a 2-hr full blast burst and fade it in and out. See if I can get my color back and avoid the algae.CO2 is pretty good- no algae that would denote an issue there (bba, staghorn, etc) just the really short green hair algae. It has since stopped advancing, and may even be in retreat. However, this means that I'm not sure which of the measures I took have yielded fruit, haha... This is why they suggest altering only a single variable when treating for this stuff.
> 
> I'm an artist not a scientist, haha!
> 
> ...


Well I have to admit, I would definitely prefer being in your shoes with that disgustingly beautiful 120! All that *space* to plant and plan - what a massive canvas!


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

I do love that footprint  though the 90 isn't bad either. At least it has the same depth!


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

...and a close up of the oddly attractive hair algae...


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

Weird!


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Seriously. It's all over my rocks and just looks like moss. It doesn't get any longer than this. This is the first time I have ever seen this kind of algae. Maybe a P shortage?


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

theblondskeleton said:


> Seriously. It's all over my rocks and just looks like moss. It doesn't get any longer than this. This is the first time I have ever seen this kind of algae. Maybe a P shortage?


I couldn't tell you if it's a P shortage or not, but I do notice that you still have that powerhead in your tank. I've decided to bite the bullet and add a Vortech MP10 to mine, since I see a whole lot of mulm that seems to be collecting on my plants and I wonder if adding one will improve my filter performance. What has your experience been like having a powerhead in your aquarium been? Do you think they tend to improve the distribution of CO2 and nutrients?


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Well, it certainly helps circulation. My dying canister just isn't enough anymore, so this helps a lot with CO2. I don get much mulm though, so not sure about that. 

I really have no idea what's causing the algae, though. I had 2 explosions and I'm not sure what caused it. Maybe time to go back to PPS...


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## maxwellag (Mar 30, 2012)

That's not hair algae-that's cladophora algae. It's the same stuff that makes up marimo moss balls. Looks good though!


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## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

That's an unreal scape! And yes, that is clado algae!


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Ah, now THAT makes sense. I hadn't considered that possibility. Well, then... I'll look into that- thanks guys!


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## tetra10 (Aug 5, 2012)

theblondskeleton said:


> View attachment 52814
> View attachment 52815
> View attachment 52816


what is this plant?


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

theblondskeleton said:


> Well, it certainly helps circulation. My dying canister just isn't enough anymore, so this helps a lot with CO2. I don get much mulm though, so not sure about that.
> 
> I really have no idea what's causing the algae, though. I had 2 explosions and I'm not sure what caused it. Maybe time to go back to PPS...


Well I have to say, after adding it to my aquarium, I'm convinced that it definitely helps with CO2 distribution. And one brief burst of 100% power cleared up the entire tank's substrate within about 3 minutes! Needless to say, I'm impressed, lol.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

styxx said:


> Well I have to say, after adding it to my aquarium, I'm convinced that it definitely helps with CO2 distribution. And one brief burst of 100% power cleared up the entire tank's substrate within about 3 minutes! Needless to say, I'm impressed, lol.


Haha- wow! I put one of my big wave makers in the 120 and it almost blasted the water out of the tank. It was messy. Need to get a smaller one.

So, the clado has gone berserk, and I'm at a loss as to how to stop it. I cleaned my diffusers and increased CO2, hoping that slows it. Might just crank down lights for a bit as well. Keep trying till it stops! Good thing the plants are healthy. New to fix this though. Not pretty anymore, haha!


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

tetra10 said:


> what is this plant?


That's rotala indica. Pretty easy to find. I'd send you some but having some nasty algae right now. If you're interested, check back in a few weeks!


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

I'm going to start using that line...Check back in a few weeks, lol!


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## robbowal (Mar 27, 2011)

styxx said:


> I couldn't tell you if it's a P shortage or not, but I do notice that you still have that powerhead in your tank. I've decided to bite the bullet and add a Vortech MP10 to mine, since I see a whole lot of mulm that seems to be collecting on my plants and I wonder if adding one will improve my filter performance. What has your experience been like having a powerhead in your aquarium been? Do you think they tend to improve the distribution of CO2 and nutrients?


Guys 
sorry for the hijack
Styxx 
you will love the MP10 the lagoon setting is about the best one. one piece of advise get some spare sponges and run it in well for the first week or so.
the best way i found to align it is to press your ear against the glass and listen to it while you move it into position (sounds weird but you will see).
theblondskeleton 
your tank looks incredible keep it up the hair algae actually looks like it belongs there very natural indeed


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

No biggie  and thanks! Fixing the CO2 has slowed it down to a standstill, so I'm hoping to see some progress soon.


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## fplata (May 20, 2012)

Overdosing excel, not by much 2x will take care of that algae along with dialing in your co2, I just recently had a good fight with it on my manten stones, mine also started getting on the plants, but it's clean now


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

fplata said:


> Overdosing excel, not by much 2x will take care of that algae along with dialing in your co2, I just recently had a good fight with it on my manten stones, mine also started getting on the plants, but it's clean now


Not to thread-jack, but how long was this "fight" fplata? Did you have to 2x dose it for just one day? Or did this take some time? My Seiryu stone and I are having a constant algae battle (and I think I'm losing)...


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

this is a great tank! i like that algae! you should send me some


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

orchidman said:


> this is a great tank! i like that algae! you should send me some


Well. I guess there's a first time for everything, lol.


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## fplata (May 20, 2012)

styxx said:


> Not to thread-jack, but how long was this "fight" fplata? Did you have to 2x dose it for just one day? Or did this take some time? My Seiryu stone and I are having a constant algae battle (and I think I'm losing)...


about 6 days, i started slow and worked my way up to about 12 ML a day, it does a number of riccia and moss, so be aware of that, however it did not harm my shrimp.


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## fplata (May 20, 2012)

orchidman said:


> this is a great tank! i like that algae! you should send me some


you do not want "none of that" the stuff could spread to your plants and you are in for a treat.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

fplata said:


> you do not want "none of that" the stuff could spread to your plants and you are in for a treat.


Lol too bad. Because its really cool


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

fplata said:


> about 6 days, i started slow and worked my way up to about 12 ML a day, it does a number of riccia and moss, so be aware of that, however it did not harm my shrimp.


Ok, awesome. Thanks!


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Fplata is right- this stuff be nasty.

Thanks for the tips! For now, I'm trying to stabilize it. Then I'll zap it and do a bunch of water changes. Hopefully that will do the job. I'll try the Excel treatment, as H202 didn't really do a lot. 

Actually, it did, but my CO2 was wonky so it didn't last. I suppose I could try to be more accurate.


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## fplata (May 20, 2012)

my fights lasted two weeks + here is what I did

first week i started with acclimatization of the shrimp (i have anout 300 of them, rilli, PFRs, Amano, etc) to the exell, i started at 1/2 and worked my self up to almost 3x, watch your shrimp. once i was at almost 3x, i started water changes daily with the first water change being so large that exposed most of my rocks and allowed me the chance the brush 3% h2o2 on to the affected areas. i was dosing full ADA, which i noticed lacked no3 and po4, I then brought up my po4 to .8ppm and my no3 to 2ppm (iam at 1.2 PPM of po4 and 3 PPM of no3 with a 60% WC every 5 days) I applied phiton git everyday @ 1 drop per 5L it took 14 days for the rocks to get fully cleaned, i only applied H202 1 time. i did not mess with the photo period at all. now my co2 is at a level where i can not count the bubbles sat 16 bps (i dont know) and the algae has been pretty much dormant, i have a strong ripple on the surface, i know i am probably degassing CO2, but i am doing everything possible to keep my beneficial bacteria thriving. I also used a carbon media (30% of my canister was carbon, the remainder biological) I am now back to 100% bio


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Sounds like you have the process down - at the core, treating any algae is the same game: return the balance, and then eliminate the stragglers. 

For my algae outbreak, I was misdiagnosing what the algae was (I had never seen a clado outbreak before, so I didn't recognize it until it was pointed out to me), so my attempts to bring it back to balance were hindered and tended to make things worse. As soon as I identified it properly, I was able to correct the imbalance (CO2) and start cleanup. Now, I have hit it with H2O2 and Excel and most is dead or dying. Now come regular water changes to evacuate the dead plant/algae matter so it doesn't turn into a different algae issue.


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

fplata said:


> my fights lasted two weeks + here is what I did
> 
> first week i started with acclimatization of the shrimp (i have anout 300 of them, rilli, PFRs, Amano, etc) to the exell, i started at 1/2 and worked my self up to almost 3x, watch your shrimp. once i was at almost 3x, i started water changes daily with the first water change being so large that exposed most of my rocks and allowed me the chance the brush 3% h2o2 on to the affected areas. i was dosing full ADA, which i noticed lacked no3 and po4, I then brought up my po4 to .8ppm and my no3 to 2ppm (iam at 1.2 PPM of po4 and 3 PPM of no3 with a 60% WC every 5 days) I applied phiton git everyday @ 1 drop per 5L it took 14 days for the rocks to get fully cleaned, i only applied H202 1 time. i did not mess with the photo period at all. now my co2 is at a level where i can not count the bubbles sat 16 bps (i dont know) and the algae has been pretty much dormant, i have a strong ripple on the surface, i know i am probably degassing CO2, but i am doing everything possible to keep my beneficial bacteria thriving. I also used a carbon media (30% of my canister was carbon, the remainder biological) I am now back to 100% bio


Yes, this is similar to what I have been doing, following your schedule. I'm now a little more than 1/2 way through the Excel regimen. I did notice one otto freaking out last night when I accidentally turned on the lights (which usually never happens) so I might do a little water change today just in case. Nevertheless, I did a very strong bleach-to-water (1:6) dip of all my stone and anubias (the plants were in there for about a minute to 2 minutes tops) along with a vigorous Oral-B brushing, lol. Everything survived and came out beautifully, though I left the stones in and scrubbed them for about 5 or 6 minutes. Subsequently, I too have had my CO2 very high, I would say around no more than 6pbs, but I also have a mild surface current. In a 48 G tank that currently holds probably 42G of water (displaced substrate and stone) I only have 5 ottos, 1 loach and 5/6 Amanos so I'm not to worried about the CO2 issue ATM. So far, so good and with addition of more plants, I think the algae is going to be history (or at least that's what I'm hoping, lol).


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

theblondskeleton said:


> Sounds like you have the process down - at the core, treating any algae is the same game: return the balance, and then eliminate the stragglers.
> 
> For my algae outbreak, I was misdiagnosing what the algae was (I had never seen a clado outbreak before, so I didn't recognize it until it was pointed out to me), so my attempts to bring it back to balance were hindered and tended to make things worse. As soon as I identified it properly, I was able to correct the imbalance (CO2) and start cleanup. Now, I have hit it with H2O2 and Excel and most is dead or dying. Now come regular water changes to evacuate the dead plant/algae matter so it doesn't turn into a different algae issue.


I think with the larger aquariums that you and fplata have, it may be more difficult to get a handle on the algae issue because the volume of water is so much higher, and thus the remedies must also be proportional to the higher volume. But that's just my guess, either way, I have had fairly great success following the same process and would advise you to try it out and see what happens. As always YMMV...:redface:


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

I actually think that the size of these bigger tanks makes us (me) feel like we (I) need more light than we (I) actually do. Plus maintenance just takes a bit longer, but I actually enjoy that part. I am always surprised at how little light I truly need to do what I want. And it takes a bit of wrestling to get there still.

Balance-wise, I have no trouble with my Do!Aqua "10-gallon" (I don't remember the size, but its exactly the same as a standard 10). I have always been able to set and forget that one.


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## fplata (May 20, 2012)

By the way the Amanos won't touch the older stuff, I had 200 of them now I have 160 and 40 on my 60p where they keep the hair algae none existent


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

fplata said:


> By the way the Amanos won't touch the older stuff, I had 200 of them now I have 160 and 40 on my 60p where they keep the hair algae none existent


Hmm...I might have to up my Amano count, lol.


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## fplata (May 20, 2012)

I know a dude that has them for 1.50 each, shipped. Pm me if you want his contact


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

So it's been a while since my last pic update. The clado went bonkers and pretty much buried everything until I got my CO2 sorted out. Trims, water changes, water changes, water changes, and some Excel and H2O2 treatments brought us here. Still not super but much better. Everything has been trimmed so its a little barren-looking at the moment, but when it grows back in it should be nice and pretty. 









H2O2 works much better against the clado than Excel, which hardly touched it. The key has been heavy CO2 dosing. My reg is at 38-40 psi for 2 diffusers: an atomic diffuser an an atomic in-line diffuser. 

I had been using mineral oil in my bubble counters but after much trouble with leaking, infiltration to my diffusers, etc., I replace it with water. More trouble than its worth. Unless I can find a super reliable bubble counter with a double check valve, I'm sticking with this:









I'm beginning to believe that all of my issues (past and present) have been connected to CO2 imbalances. I browse through my journals, and reassess what was happening (plus what wasn't written), and I see consistent CO2 related issues. This isn't from any particular resistance in my part to acknowledge it, but more due to trying to find shortcuts to a simple problem. I'll try not to do that anymore. The issue has been keeping my reg pushing enough CO2 to keep a steady pressure and CO2 level. Also equipment maintenance. Sometimes you just have to do the nasty.

Next month, I'm going to pick up about 100 Amanos. After all of my issues, I currently only have 1 survivor. This was due to a nitrite spike that took me by surprise a couple weeks ago. Very frustrating. I had been overdosing ferts to an insane degree, and the Amanos suffered for it. Currently, I'm back on PPS, and it is working much better for me.


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

It's 'funny' that you mention CO2, because mine just ran out, damn it! 100 Amanos, wow! Are you sure that you need that many - mean I know you have a 120, but isn't that overkill? Believe me when I say that they will grow very large and AFAIK their appetites never decrease, lol. Well if you do, we want some pics of that Amano...swarm? What's a collection of shrimp named, lol? Good to hear that you've narrowed the cause to the CO2. I've found over the years that having reliable, consistent CO2 is of paramount importance in a high light aquarium and there is no substitute for it.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

It looks like the clado has slowed considerably! I can see parts of my rocks again, haha... I'm making progress after all. This is a very good thing. Progress, however, is not perfection. Still attacking with H2O2, trimming aggressively, and dosing regularly. The return to PPS has taken a load of confusion off. This is much more manageable now. Guess I'll just be sticking with it


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

Glad to hear the improvements!!


Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Clado is gone after a lengthy battle (won in the end by diligence and lots of water changes). Now to repair and regrow. I planted some HC and glosso a well as some ludwigia to color things up a bit. I moved the hydrocotyle to the mid ground where it belongs, and everything is super trimmed. I also picked up an Eheim 2217 and it is cycling right now. Eventually I may pick up another and go dual on this. I really like the flow I'm getting with it. About double that if my old Renas. Everything is looking up finally!


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## fplata (May 20, 2012)

Awesome, so how often a and how large where those water changes


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

I started with two big ones (90% or so) in one week after spot dosing around 150ml of H2O2 on the clado. It was sizzling for about 15 minutes before I started the water change. I then trimmed the crap out of everything - often down to the very substrate - just to get rid of as much as I could. Then I'd give it a day off, then hit it again. I did one more big one on the next Sunday, again trimming ruthlessly, and repeated it the next week. Then I cranked up the CO2 and lowered my lights a bit. After that it was a slow (2 weeks) retreat. This stuff is a pain, but it is possible to get rid of, once you identify the cause. Mine was a series of issues with my CO2 system that were causing unstable levels. No BBA, oddly enough. 

The big issue now is my LED fixture is out of commission while I wait for a new driver, so I'm back to my T5HO's. Good thing I hadn't sold them like I had intended.


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## Green_Flash (Apr 15, 2012)

great tank, it is very serene.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Thanks, Green_flash! Someday I hope to have time to enjoy it, but my show opens Friday, so it's a little crazy right now!


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## sayurasem (Jun 17, 2011)

Nice


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

sayurasem said:


> Nice


Thanks 

By the way: Eheim 2217 FTW! 

I have a 2211 on my small setup upstairs but this is just phenomenal. The flow I'm getting is soooooo much better! I love my Renas - they've been good to me - but this is kind of impressive. Eventually I'll pick up a super jet, but this will do in the meantime 

New plants settling in happily.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Now THAT'S what I'm talking about. No die-back, plants transitioning nicely, tank is virtually algae-free. Lovin it!


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Here is a much better shot. Still just an iPhone pic, but I cleaned my pipes and did a trim/water change. This really shows why I got an ADA tank. Now, I can't wait to see this grow in.


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

Looking better!!!


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Thanks! Now that I finally have things under control, I can see some great growth happening. All of my plants look healthy now, not just the rotala. I tore down one of my nanos and had a whole lot more Anubias nana 'petite' than I even dreamed (once upon a time, I couldn't get enough of this stuff, now I have it growing out of my ears). I had those shady areas around the main stone that needed something transitional. I filled it with nana, and I think it works nicely with the stone and moss there. It's giving me ideas for the next iteration of this tank...

My last trim was pretty brutal. The rotala is taking a very long time to come back, but its coming. I cut considerably further back than I have before, so the density is also quite a bit lower than before. This was intentional. I'm trying to incorporate some different colors and textures for variety. This may not work in traditional iwagumi style, but I think it will work here when things grow in. The ludwigia have transitioned and are growing well, albeit slowly (my light has been significantly reduced, I'm slowly increasing it to a manageable level). HC is spreading nicely, though the glosso is mainly growing vertically. I'm trimming and replanting while slowly increasing light.


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## discusplantedtanklover (Nov 17, 2012)

Very nice planted tank.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

discusplantedtanklover said:


> Very nice planted tank.


Thanks!

I finally "finished" my light fixture! Woohoo! I reduced the moonlights to 2 emitters at about 20% output, so that should take care of that. It looks good, and the tank is pretty stable. The Belem is looking amazing, and my HC is slowly coming along and spreading. The glosso still isn't charging ahead, but it's growing. 

My attempt at the reds failed in mush. It was a poor effort, to be sure. Not sure what lacked - maybe N? Maybe just being in the corner did it. Not certain. I have a couple stems left, but I don't expect much. Might try something else there if I can rule out a dark spot.


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

theblondskeleton said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I finally "finished" my light fixture! Woohoo! I reduced the moonlights to 2 emitters at about 20% output, so that should take care of that. It looks good, and the tank is pretty stable. The Belem is looking amazing, and my HC is slowly coming along and spreading. The glosso still isn't charging ahead, but it's growing.
> 
> My attempt at the reds failed in mush. It was a poor effort, to be sure. Not sure what lacked - maybe N? Maybe just being in the corner did it. Not certain. I have a couple stems left, but I don't expect much. Might try something else there if I can rule out a dark spot.


Well I can say that I'm happy to hear that your light fixture is complete. Considering your use of HC and Belem, the intensity of your lighting in terms of PAR is an invaluable calculation for the size of a 120. My experience with red plants generally has been that they need _very_ high light, sufficient iron and high N to really bring out their deepest coloration. But that was very limited to one or two species of plant and long, long ago. I've never really gotten on the "red" bandwagon, so to speak, though some of Tom Barr's reds are truly impressive. The leggyness of the glosso screams for an increase in light intensity and increased PAR at the substrate depth, IMHO.


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## Rion (Dec 29, 2006)

Leggyness of glosso isn't always a PAR problem, sometimes it just needs to be trained to grow flat. I have a lower light tank where it is growing very low to the substrate but in an emmersed setup with more light it's growing leggy and has undoubtedly a higher PAR reading.

Tank is looking great, hope things grow in well!


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## ADAtank (Jul 26, 2011)

ada all the way man get rid of those green pipes!


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Thanks, guys!

I think the light is sufficient, I think it was another deficiency. I had a little cyano, so I thought maybe low N. The reds are doing ok, just not what I expected. As for glosso, it's not really leggy, just hasn't laid down yet. It's growing super slow, so I think it was transitioning still. Everything else is doing great, so I'm not too worried. 

And yes, soon enough I'll get rid I the green pipes, haha... Just had to break up the purchases there or my wife would kill me! I have an allowance, ya know!


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

My CO2 ran out the other day, so a bit of BBA popped up, but things are coming along. The reds all passed into mush land, so I'm considering what to do with the space in the corners. I need lily pipes and clear hose. The green is driving me nuts!

Unfortunately, my atomic diffuser blew a seal, so I'm currently using my spare in-line. I may just continue this - less in the tank.

I think I finally (really this time) figured out my lights. With O2surplus' SmartyCat controller and sink's arduino code, I have smooth dimming, realistic moonlights, and precise control of my light levels. Now, all I need is a PAR meter to dial in the exact light level. O2's SmartyCat is incredibly user friendly in this regard.


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## fplata (May 20, 2012)

I need to build a light system like yours, the tank looks amazing


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Thanks, fplata! I'm afraid you might enjoy that - a lot. I still have some issues I'd like to tackle with mine, but I'm pretty sure this light is the best investment I've made aside from the 120-P. 

I highly recommend the MakersLed heat sink. It's quite well thought out. The best part is with the optics, there's no glare! All (well, most of) the light goes in the tank  my wife REALLY appreciates that (the tank is near our TV) and so do I. I can stare at the tank for hours and not get a headache, haha...


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

theblondskeleton said:


> Thanks, fplata! I'm afraid you might enjoy that - a lot. I still have some issues I'd like to tackle with mine, but I'm pretty sure this light is the best investment I've made aside from the 120-P.
> 
> I highly recommend the MakersLed heat sink. It's quite well thought out. The best part is with the optics, there's no glare! All (well, most of) the light goes in the tank  my wife REALLY appreciates that (the tank is near our TV) and so do I. I can stare at the tank for hours and not get a headache, haha...


Well if you stare at your for hours and not get a headache, then you're getting your money's worth IMHO. I love mine and debated about whether or not I should put it in my bedroom, but ultimately I've found that it was the right decision for me. I love being in bed and being able to watch what's going on, either while lying down or sitting at the foot.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

A shot from the side. Happy holidays


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

Nicely done!!!


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

absolutely beautiful. Great hardscape. Well planted. Just an overall superb looking tank.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Thanks guys! It's still coming along  I finally got some lily pipes for the Eheim and replaced the hoses with clear ones today. I also repositioned them on the left side. It's a bit crowded, but I'm getting better flow in all areas now. I also fixed the inline diffuser on the Eheim and fitted it to the outlet rather than the intake. All equipment is now (mostly) invisible!

I also cleaned out the inside of the cabinet. It's amazing how fast junk piles up down there.


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

Ahhhh...much better! I must stay that I like the switched out lily pipes and tubing. Was it impossible to hang the lights from the ceiling here? Either way, every little step is an improvement.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Thanks, styxx  I used to hang my lights from the ceiling, actually. My ceiling is steeply sloped as they are vaulted in the living room, so leveling is a PITA without adding unsightly turnbuckles. I wanted clean and adjustable, so I went with the bar. If I want it raised, I loosen the conduit clamps and raise it. Leveling is a cinch, too. I just have to finish painting the damn thing, haha... Having tried several different methods of mounting/concealing my lights (hoods, stands, hanging from ceiling, pipes, laying it on top) this is my favorite option by far. 

I was going to just bend a light bar, but a couple of things prevented that. Now, I'm glad because the connectors are removable and I can take the fixture off anytime without any trouble. It was a couple extra dollars that - unpredicted - turned out quite useful.

The glass pipes really make the difference for me. I do not like to see anything but the scape, so this is really ideal. Now, I'm considering getting a glass top so I can prevent evaporation - and all the jumpers. Had a rash of them lately. Wonder what's up.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

The pipes look great! The clear tubes also help!!!


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## Green_Flash (Apr 15, 2012)

theblondskeleton said:


> The ADA 120-P. I’m pretty sure the P stands for perfect.



I finally stumbled upon what the P stands for in ADA, it stands for "Pool". 

ADA 120cm Pool Aquarium. H stands for High, C stands for Cube, no idea what F means though. 

But great journal to read!


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

F - flat?


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

F = frac/k from the discussions I've seen. Not sure why frac = shallow, but that's clearly waht it means.


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## Tomasz (Jan 23, 2013)

Great scape! lots of learning to be had from this. Where did you purchase the glass pipes?


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Thanks, guys  frack? Really? Heh, weird. Pool makes sense though.

So, I thought I'd share one of my other tanks, too. I'm really happy with this one, and as of today, it has a new inhabitant! Thanks Couesfanatic!

This is my Do!aqua 45x?x? or my 10-gallon as I call it. About the same dimensions as one. It's been going since summer, and is really growing into a beautiful little setup.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Oh, and For the lily pipes I just got the e-bay cheapies. One set was pretty nice, the other was the really thin glass.


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

Love that 10G with all the wonderful anubias! I've never been a big sand person, but it looks good here.


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## Green_Flash (Apr 15, 2012)

that does look fantastic, is the new fish dario dario?


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Sorry - out of the loop for a while!

Overhauled!









I hadn't intended to, but I had a CO2 mishap that was proving quite difficult to recover from. So, I tore down the iwagumi and threw in some shou stone i had lying around, some root wood, turned down the lights and slowed things down a bit.

I had some BBA develop on my rocks before the changeover, so I have reduced my flow and added a diffuser to the tank. Hopefully this will help. Plants are as follows:

Windelov fern
Needle leaf java fern
Narrow leaf java fern
Cryptocoryne wendtii red
Anubias nana
Anubias nana petite
Fissidens sp.
Mini pellia
Eleocharis Belem


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## MrAlmostWrong (Jul 16, 2012)

Any updates on how the new scape grew in? I'm always interested to see how people handle ferns in their layouts.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Sorry for the long delay! It's been a crazy school year, and I just finally have a few minutes to update.

No pic at the moment - sorry!

For a couple of weeks after rescaping, I had some difficulty with the layout. The plants were dying back, and things just generally were not looking good. I diagnosed too much light as a culprit and things improved, but not as much as I had hoped.

Then, 3 diffusers died in rapid succession. 2 were cheapo versions of the Atomic diffusers, so that was understandable. They had seen the best of their usefulness. One was an Atomic diffuser that just wasn't big enough for the tank. After getting rid of the XP3 (too much flow was generating BBA in some specific locations on rocks), dialing down the lights, replacing diffusers and adding some red LEDs to the fixture, things are bouncing back - albeit as slowly as ferns generally grow.

This is a long-term scape for me, so I'm looking at a few months of growth before I see what I'd like out of this. I picked up some truly awful windelov from my LFS (overpriced and nearly dead) and the rhizomes are just now starting to send off some new, healthy-looking leaves. The others have gone brown except for the tips, which are oddly enough doing quite well.

I'm still futzing with the light and trying to find the sweet spot with this layout. My CO2 is finally stable, so it's really a question of balancing out the light. 

My crypts are throwing very long petioles with smallish blades, and I'm assuming this is from light issues? Here is the oddity: there are some that are growing very tall very quickly, and some that have thrown a lot of very tiny leaves (8-9 leaves at 2-3 inches in total length, versus 5-6 leaves 6-10 inches in length). Many of these are right next to one another. two of these are a few inches away from my diffuser and have 2-3 leaves about 2-3 inches in length. I'm really confused by what's going on there.

At best, I can assume there is a light/flow issue going on, but how to address it I have no idea. It'll take some creative brainstorming, I guess.

Overall, however the scape is looking pretty decent. I have some new residents: some juvenile Bosemani rainbows (2 males, 2 females) and a couple of German Blue Rams. I'll be adding to this group as time goes on. Amanos, corys, otos, and a school of glowlight tetras round out the mix. Everyone seems to enjoy the place.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Ok, so I lied about that last scape looking good. The longer I looked at it, the less I liked it. Under planted, under structured, generally unimpressive.

So I tore it down to the bones, tossed the junk an started over with a little bit more time on my hands. I'll post pic as soon a I can, but know this scape features a return of my seiryu stone and uses some of my branch wood. I'm going with all new plants (except my Anubias nana petite- I love that plant). At the moment, the plants will arrive tomorrow and the substrate is most and waiting to receive its bounty.

Fun


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

theblondskeleton said:


> Ok, so I lied about that last scape looking good. The longer I looked at it, the less I liked it. Under planted, under structured, generally unimpressive.
> 
> So I tore it down to the bones, tossed the junk an started over with a little bit more time on my hands. I'll post pic as soon a I can, but know this scape features a return of my seiryu stone and uses some of my branch wood. I'm going with all new plants (except my Anubis nana petite- I love that plant). At the moment, the plants will arrive tomorrow and the substrate is most and waiting to receive its bounty.
> 
> Fun


Good to hear. I liked your first scape quite a bit better than the second so it's good to hear your stone will come back. Look forward to the update.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

talontsiawd said:


> Good to hear. I liked your first scape quite a bit better than the second so it's good to hear your stone will come back. Look forward to the update.


Haha exactly 

Thanks! I'm looking forward to it as well. I think I would love to have a seriously massive seiryu stone. Something about 12"x18"x12" or so. I never quite get the mass I'm looking for. One of my favorite stone tanks is the manten stone 180-P in the ADA gallery. The main stone in that one is about 2 feet long and 12 inches thick! I wish I had access to that kind of stone here. We have a lot of basalt where I am but it's not terribly pretty by itself.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Blank spot between the rotala green and the lilaeopsis... What to fill it with?

Current list:
Lilaeopsis mauritiana 
Rotala green
Hygrophila pinnatifida
Marsilea quadrifolia
Anubias nana petite
Fissidens sp.


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## Fishmommy (Feb 16, 2013)

How about something with round leaves like lysimachia nummularia?


Sent from my gadget using Trippytalk HD


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Red Tiger Lotus or more anubias and let the stems grow in behind them. 

Good to see an old familiar face back in the game!


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I would personally add more micro sword right there. Possibly filling in a bit of that V shape behind the rocks.

Looks really good, can't wait to see this fill in.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Phil Edwards said:


> Red Tiger Lotus or more anubias and let the stems grow in behind them.
> 
> Good to see an old familiar face back in the game!


Hey, Phil! Good to see you back, too! I hope your time in Japan treated you well. Looks like you have a couple projects brewing too!


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I think I'll just fill it in with the lilaeopsis and maybe bring in some hydrocotyle sibthorpioides as well. I'd like to keep that side open and simple.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

*Chagrin*

It's time to drop a little truth, here. It turns out that I have been completely wrong about what's been happening in my tank the last year or so. Let's start at the beginning.

When I first set up this tank, I had two 54W x2 T5HO Odyssea fixtures over the tank. At the time I was using all 4 lamps to illuminate the tank, and I quickly developed the brown fuzz.

Too much, right? Right. So, I raised them up and nearly blinded my wife and myself and we squinted to see either the tank or our nearby television in the intense glare.

So, I planned for the LED's. I designed and built my fixture to work with this tank. At the back of my mind, I always had a little doubt, nagging at my process, but never fully intruding in execution. _It's not enough!_ the little voice kept whispering.

I hung the fixture, proud of my accomplishment - and proceeded to watch my plants fade slowly into mush. I was so frustrated. I thought it was too much light, a CO2 issue, not enough nutrients, contaminants in my tap water, poor flow, inadequate filtration - anything but what the nagging little voice told me, because as soon as I lowered my fixture or dialed up the faders, I would get algae again!

At the peak of my trouble, I finally dismantled the (now BBA-laden) scape, and installed a low-light plant scheme that was really just an effort to make myself feel better about the failure.

It only got ugly slower.

I was breezing through the forum a few weeks ago, and came across a post by Tom Barr explaining why he didn't use LED's at the moment. I'm not sure what exactly he wrote that triggered the little whispering voice to suddenly become a shout, but that's what happened. I realized that for my LED's to be an effective method of lighting my tank, I would need to double the width of my 6" wide fixture. 

As a sort of test, I removed the LED fixture, and replaced it with my old T5HO's, this time with only the 2 Geisemann lamps plugged in, and lo and behold! Almost instantly, the tank appeared twice as bright. Within minutes my Marsilea was pearling - a sight hitherto unseen since the original scaping of this tank.

Since this replacement, I have seen much improved growth and health in my aquarium. What a bonehead I have been. Denial is a powerful force, people. Instinct can often be ignored as a result. It's unfortunate that the process had to go that far, and I had to lose so many plants before realizing what I needed to do, but there you go.

The next phase (to be implemented over the course of many months, as my annual tank budget is tapped) is to expand my LED fixture to accommodate the actual requirements of my tank. This means having one emitter for every 4 square inches of footprint, and hanging it at an appropriate height as well as dimming it to the appropriate level. It will take a while to adjust, but I'm ok with that. I'm nothing if not patient.

Until then, I'll keep my Odyssea fixtures in operation, and feed my tank properly.

Lesson learned.:redface:


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Thank you for sharing your info. I see a lot of nano's with LED's and they do fine. I actually was going to do a DIY LED at the same time you did. Something kept telling me that my T5HO fixture is perfectly fine so no need to drop the cash until LED's become more of a mainstay in the planted tank realm. My main concern was trying to diagnose any potential problems if I were to go LED. Looks like you had the experience I luckily avoided but I have to thank you so much for sharing. We all make mistakes in this hobby and seeing people who can obviously do very nicely with their tanks allows everyone else to learn. For me, I will wait on LED's but I will see what you do.

Hope to see an amazing tank as you switch things back over to your other fixture.


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

How does it look now?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

Never saw this thread, nice aquascapes!


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Thanks! It's looking a bit fuzzy at the moment. I've had some CO2 issues that have really affected growth and resulted in algae madness. The plants are still kicking, but there was a few weeks of really poor growth, and I can't seem to kick it. Things are bouncing back, but slowly. I'm expanding my LED fixture to account for the poor coverage, but it's expensive and time is not something I have a lot if at the moment, so I have my crummy Odyssea "T5HO" units with brand new Coralife lamps doing the heavy lifting. Likely I'll finish the LED's up in December when I have the time. 

It's frustrating because I feel like I have good 'scapes but for some reason I'm having such incredible trouble with CO2 and lighting that all of that is immaterial. This too shall pass, I suppose. I have no intention of giving up, though I'm sure my wife wishes I would, haha!


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

Is this tank still alive?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Hey there,

Japan was awesome, to say the least. I'm going back this August and hope to be able to visit the NA gallery, among other places I couldn't get to while living there. 

Sorry to hear about your tank woes; I've been in the same boat with the 60 gallon. I'm also with you (and Tom) on the LED vs. T5 issue. I think LEDs are awesome for thin and/or small tanks, but they just don't have the kind of spread needed for a bigger tank and I'm not about to spend the $$$$ required to get the kind of coverage necessary.

Even though it sucks to go through what you did, I'm glad to hear it was a lighting issue and not something more insidious or harder to deal with.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Very nice looking tank, sorry about the LEDs not working. I think you would do very well if you added more coverage, which is a common drawback of LED fixtures. More companies are focusing on Lens with wider reflectors, but like anything new, it needs more improvement.

LEDs with a planted tank can be done, and I like your DIY fixture, give it another shot.

When I switch to LEDs, it went smoothly for me. I hope you rethink this and give LEDs another try because that scape is straight out of a ADA gallery. 

CFL









=======

LEDs










I need to work on creating a decent scape, argh. You get the idea though,


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Man, what a roller coaster this year.

So, it seems the light wasn't the issue - not entirely. the main issue I had was with the lava rock I was using underneath my substrate. I have had nothing but diatoms since I put it in my tanks. I thought it was helping the tank by providing more surface for bacteria to colonize, but it was also contaminating my tank with silicates - leading to constant diatom issues. The main issue was that I was looking for the cause on the internet. This led to many many different diagnoses. Anyway, I took it out a few months ago, and the tank cleared up like magic - no diatoms in months.

Next, I was still experiencing growth issues - it looked like a CO2 deficiency, but I was already dumping so much CO2 in, I was constantly on the verge of gassing my fish. I swapped out my diffusers for a reactor, as I had major success with one in the past, and the CO2 levels became easier to manage, but I STILL had growth issues. WTF??

I had been aging my water in a 50-gallon barrel in my loft for years. I had a hose running from the barrel to behind my tank to make water changes easier. However, I never drained the hose between changes, so it developed a permanent colony of anaerobic bacteria - the evidence? The reek of sulfur. I tossed that hose when we moved.

Yup. We moved. Tore down the whole business, and moved across town - woohoo! No more tiny condo!

So, now the tank sits empty in it's new spot, with a newly painted gray stand (much better than the blue, haha), my repaired LED light, and my cleaned up seiryu stone, patiently awaiting the next adventure. I will be going for an iwagumi-style layout, I am determined to grow glosso, and I am really excited (and hopeful) that I have eliminated the issues that have plagued me since I got those crazy ideas.

Wish me luck.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I can't wait to see the next iteration of this. Funny yet unfortunately, I have been right there with you. After a long track record of being fairly successful, as soon as I started something I felt should be relatively easy, it has been one thing after another. Once I feel I nail down one thing, I find it wasn't really the issue, then find the next. I honestly am not sure what is going on but what I am learning, forget everything I know and see what happens. 

I wish you the best of luck on the new setup, take it slow and make sure you enjoy it. I almost quite the hobby but found making my life easier and simplifying things brought back the interest, even though my tank should be better, I still enjoy figuring out the problems when they aren't so bad I just want to rip the whole thing down.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Thanks, Matt! I agree - it has occurred to me that maybe I toil for nothing with these things, but I love it so much, haha... I just can't stop!

I threw in my Aquasoil, and tucked some marsilea minuta in the soil for the moment. I have glosso and Staurogyne 049 on the way, (and some HC because I just can't help myself). I want to keep it as simple as possible. When the other plants arrive, I may relocate the marsilea to another tank or a grow out tank. I have a garage now, so I can do that


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

theblondskeleton said:


> Thanks, Matt! I agree - it has occurred to me that maybe I toil for nothing with these things, but I love it so much, haha... I just can't stop!
> 
> I threw in my Aquasoil, and tucked some marsilea minuta in the soil for the moment. I have glosso and Staurogyne 049 on the way, (and some HC because I just can't help myself). I want to keep it as simple as possible. When the other plants arrive, I may relocate the marsilea to another tank or a grow out tank. I have a garage now, so I can do that


I call it the "dream tank syndrome". I have seen it many times on the board, experienced it myself. It seems like as soon as you get to where you really go past what you are used to in terms of investment, equipment and expectations, a lot of us tend to just have issues. Even if we had a very similar tank before, just scaled down, or the same size tank, just not ADA, it's just some cursed thing. Now some don't get this, and there is no reason for it, it just happens.

Grow out tanks in the garage are awesome. I had one for awhile, I was able to keep a "back up" of all my plants. Unfortunately, it gets too hot in the summer here to keep plants so I ditched it. 

Anyway, a fresh start is good and most of your plants don't need crazy light or care, assuming they get enough light and CO2, you will be fine, then start upping slowly. I actually have converted my 60P to low tech twice when I started having issues, some people don't like that option but I have kept my tank going for a year, that always brings it back to a "workable" point when something goes really south on it. In 2 weeks, it basically has reset it self back to being more than manageable.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

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Planted with staurogyne 049, glosso, and HC. I may add some riccia for texture, but it really depends on how high maintenance I want to get with this. It will already be quite heavy with all the glosso and HC.

Terrible pic, but here it is. Everything looks very healthy so far. The glosso has transitioned, but it was a messy one. after cleaning out the die off, it's now growing sideways, so I assume the time to trim it down will come in a week or two. Meanwhile I need to let it root some more. The HC (the absolute best batch I have ever received from any plant vendor, who replaced a dead batch and shipped it free - with extras!) was just planted last week, but it is already spreading and growing down to the soil. It appears that my diatom issues have been solved, and my light is actually doing quite well with these plants! 

With the fixture hung at 34cm from the surface of the water. This gives me a nice, even pool of light at the substrate, without too much dark space at the edges. The warm whites I added seem to have balanced it out well, and it appears identical to sunlight, which is pleasing to see. The greens are very pretty, and the stone's bluish tint comes out well. It feels like an aquarium in HD, haha...

It also appears that I have a very tiny baby shrimp stowaway who is happily occupying the tank.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Looking good. Do you have any slightly taller stones or even add some AS under the front ones? The foreground is overshadowing a bit but it also looks pretty long. Anyway, great to see this going again.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Thanks - the HC is REALLY tall at the moment. It contained some of the longest stems I have seen in pots. It made it much easier to plant, but it is considerably taller than I will typically keep it. After it roots, I'll cut it back down to size. The smaller stones up front will stand out just fine.

I had it going well back at the other place, but I hadn't taken pictures for a long time. It had some bolbitis, cryptocoryne wendtii red, marsilea minuta, anubias petite, and some windelov fern. It looked ok, but my CO2 was giving me issues. I picked up some new bubble counters with check valves in them, as my check valves all went kaput, but I need to adjust my reactor, and swap out the needle valves on my second line (the one to the diffuser), as the old one is a cheapo. It looks like I'm finally getting enough CO2 in there as it is, but it's not a permanent setup the way it stands. I anticipate things will go smoothly, as long as I don't screw anything up with some crackpot idea, haha...


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

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Steady as she goes. Another iPhone pic, but I tried a little harder this time, haha... I should just get my good camera out sometime. I trimmed the HC back, but it's still not quite as short as I'd like - it needs a week or two to root better before I can trim it as low as I want. The glosso is taking its sweet time to grow in, but it's doing its job as well. The stauro is going to take over if I'm not careful, haha... that stuff grows like crazy when it's happy. I added some anubias nana 'petite' in the shady spots, as the HC and glosso would not grow there. They were not the healthiest plants, but they are bouncing back now that I have my crap together. Added livestock on Sunday: 32 neons and 20 otos. Everybody is happy and thriving, the neons are super colorful and the otos are fat and grazing happily.

Seeing this with the plants growing in, I'm not really happy with the left side hardscape. The right side grouping is groovy, but the left just looks like I threw some rocks in there. Which is essentially what I did.

I think this definitively demonstrates that my light was not the issue after all, as I have made absolutely no changes to it since I removed it initially. At the current height, the coverage is flawless, and my plants pearl within minutes of the lights coming up every day. The issues had to be because of one or all of the following:

1. The lava rock adding silicates to the water column.
2. The water aging system I had in place.
3. Unknown CO2 issues that have since been resolved

My solutions:

1: Toss the lava rock. Easy.
2: When we moved, I dismantled my 50-gallon storage barrel and hoses that brought the water to my tank. The issue was that I wasn't draining my hoses after water changes, so I was getting anaerobic bacteria buildup in the hose. I flushed it before each water change, but I'm thinking that wasn't enough. Even if it wasn't the largest issue facing my tank, I imagine it had a negative effect on my plants, making it even harder for them to survive.
3. I had my system set up with a 10-lb CO2 tank, dual stage reg, 2-port manifold, ancient bubble counters (JBJ-style without the check valves I've had for about 10 years) miles of hose, old check valves, and some sketchy diffusers. I switched back to a reactor (as I have had great success with Rex-style reactors before) and dismantled the whole system, cleaning and inspecting every connection. I removed the manifold and tossed the old bubble counters, replacing them with shiny new ones with check valves. I also reduced the hose to the minimum necessary. To be certain, I also introduced my 5-lb cylinder with a dual stage reg and an atomic diffuser. The combination works well, but it should be just fine with either one by itself. I'm a little hesitant to change anything (if it ain't broke don't fix it), but I'd sure like to figure out which will be the best solution. I'd like to free up the 5-lb cylinder for my 45cm tank.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Looking good and glad to hear that this is on it's way back. I don't have any suggestions but I recently did somewhat the same. That is, simply eliminate anything that could be an issue and assume anything I had not use before could be a potential issue. Slowly but surely I am getting better results while doing less water changes than before and using more light. I thought my light was my issue as well, and though the high light may have made the problem worse, I am seeing it was not the cause of them. 

Anyway, just glad to see this back and good to hear you are making a strong come back on this. I know how much work you put into it.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Thanks, Matt! Glad to hear you're making some progress, too. I keep forgetting the whole "keep it simple, stupid" approach. While I have a potentially fatal addiction to tinkering, it is best to remember I'm not an expert, and should rely on what has been proven to work.

Though the LED thing has really worked out in my favor, and THAT is a big relief, haha...


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Lava rocks have silicates? Thought it was inert?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

theblondskeleton said:


> Thanks, Matt! Glad to hear you're making some progress, too. I keep forgetting the whole "keep it simple, stupid" approach. While I have a potentially fatal addiction to tinkering, it is best to remember I'm not an expert, and should rely on what has been proven to work.
> 
> Though the LED thing has really worked out in my favor, and THAT is a big relief, haha...


Yeah, exactly. Honestly, the more major issues I was having were the simplest, not enough flow/surface agitation and too low of CO2. However, it wasn't that simple, my guppies always look like they are gasping but if I up the CO2, or lower it, they still do. With no CO2, they still have that behavior. I probably am injecting 5x or more CO2 than I thought I was able to. The flow was kind of similar, I knew my filter was more than capable for my tank size, it was a combination of my outflow and having so much stuff inline. Only now can I get decent surface agitation with the same outflow, now that I took much of my inline stuff out. 

That's what I am saying though, it's always something you add, thinking you are doing a favor but neglect to second guess it. Even the fish, simple as behavior, it's funny in retrospect but gave me a long time of grief.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

frrok said:


> Lava rocks have silicates? Thought it was inert?


The short answer is yes, but how much depends on what kind of lava rock it is.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

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Growing and growing...


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