# rajdude's "house of horrors" tank!



## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Uh oh!
I just read about this horror story about cleaning corals:

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/theresatamkins/deadly-palytoxin-cleaning-fish-tank-coral


Then I Googled it, saw lots of articles about this serious problem. Even CDC has a scary article!

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6431a4.htm



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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Congrats on the score! You don't need to worry about coraline algae containing palytoxins. That's a concern for when fragging the live animals, but I've never heard of any surviving dry. Mostly what you are up against is calcium based algae. It's a real shame the owner of this didn't at least clean the tank and give it a good wipe down when he broke it down. As for cleaning, it can be a beast getting caked on coraline off of glass. I generally use full strength vinegar soaked in a towel for an hour or two at a time. Just turn the side down you are working on and let it soak, it will eventually break up and release its grip. You want to be very careful not to scrub too hard because the shards of this stuff can scratch things up if you aren't careful. Muriatic acid might be needed if vinegar can't cut it. 

I'd clean up the skimmer and put it on CL and recoup some of your spending. They aren't effective in freshwater, it's just too thin to get much of a skimmate.


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## EdWiser (Jul 14, 2015)

Lots of vinegar and let it soak then a razor scraper to clean it off. Lots of scrubbing.


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## SardinePatheNews (Nov 12, 2019)

if you put the vinegar into a spray bottle you can 'spray fix' kitchen towel sheets onto the vertical glass, (if you can steal an electric steamer from the kitchen while the wife is out too you can put that inside and cover the tank then power it up occasionally to humidify the air to delay the vinegar soaked sheets drying out )


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*Update*

Thanks for the tips guys! I appreciate it!


Here is the latest status:
This morning I sprayed everything down with a garden hose. I was surprised that most of the gunk on the glass came off easily. Then I scrubbed it with a brush and now this is what it looks like:


Tank:











Sump:














Why is the weir double walled? 











The problem child:










The skimmer...I think it is missing parts.











The overflow pipes setup


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*Vinegar treatment:*

I soaked a towel in vinegar and wrapped it around the weir. So far, it doesn't look like it's going to free up or dissolve any of that buildup from the weir.
Maybe I should wrap the tank with a tarp and leave it overnight.










Yes vinegar worked well for the glass. I brushed neat vinegar, with a little bit of scrubbing most of the deposits came off. Now very little white spots are still left on glass ...










I brushed neat vinegar on the inside of the skimmer, then soaked the skimmer in a dilute solution. Hoping to get it reasonably clean.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Coming along nicely! Skimmer seems to be missing the pump, pump attachment and lid. Might be worth a message to the person you got the tank from to see if they have it still. Near worthless without, seeing as sourcing those would cost as much as a new mid-range skimmer. If that was an H&S or Bubble King, I would say otherwise. Let the vinegar sit for a long time, it never really stops working unless it dries or is spent. It will never eat through the glass, so even if it's 48 hours, it beats scrubbing it off and potentially scratching glass.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Coming along nicely! Skimmer seems to be missing the pump, pump attachment and lid. Might be worth a message to the person you got the tank from to see if they have it still. Near worthless without, seeing as sourcing those would cost as much as a new mid-range skimmer. If that was an H&S or Bubble King, I would say otherwise. Let the vinegar sit for a long time, it never really stops working unless it dries or is spent. It will never eat through the glass, so even if it's 48 hours, it beats scrubbing it off and potentially scratching glass.


Thanks

I have the pump for the skimmer, it's shown in the bucket of water in the first post l. I plugged it in, doesn't work. It does have the air sucking mechanism attached to it.

Lid? Hmmmm, can you please check the photos of the skimmer in the second post above. Does it seem like the lid is there?

Shouldn't it have anything inside it? Like a mechanism or something?

This skimmer doesn't seem to have any marking on it. I was expecting a make and model somewhere on it.


Also, I wonder if vinegar will affect the tank's silicone.

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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Pump for skimmer









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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Pump says Sedra brand on it's sticker

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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Wow what a cleaning job you signed up for - good work though and nice money saved I'm sure!


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

rajdude said:


> Lid? Hmmmm, can you please check the photos of the skimmer in the second post above. Does it seem like the lid is there?
> 
> Shouldn't it have anything inside it? Like a mechanism or something?
> 
> ...


Ah, I see in the earlier photo that lid is there, sorry. From the side it looked open. There's not much else to a protein skimmer, they're pretty simple devices. I'd take the impeller out and clean it, hopefully fires back up. Sedra appears to still be making these if you do have to source anything. Does this look like your model? https://premiumaquatics.com/products/asm-g2-insump-protein-skimmer-sedra-pump-open-box-return.html



Vinegar shouldn't affect the silicone.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*Bing!*

Thank for the info! Yes, you are spot on  :grin2: Mine looks exactly like the one you linked. 

So it is the ASM G-3 model with the Sedra KSP-5000 pump.


I will check it out further, yesterday I took off the pump's "cap" to check out the impeller. I noticed a couple of those needles were broken and the impeller was jammed. I plugged it in anyway, hoping the motor would at least hum...but it did not seem to hum. Now that I know that impeller is replaceable, I will try to pull the impeller out today and try firing up with pump again.



BTW, when I plugged it in, I got a 110 volts shock! Had wet hands, my bad! First time I got a 110 volts shock......so much better than a 220 volts shock that I have got many, many times! :surprise::nerd:


PS: Now I know that the outlet on the deck is not GFCI protected, JUNK!




Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Ah, I see in the earlier photo that lid is there, sorry. From the side it looked open. There's not much else to a protein skimmer, they're pretty simple devices. I'd take the impeller out and clean it, hopefully fires back up. Sedra appears to still be making these if you do have to source anything. Does this look like your model? https://premiumaquatics.com/products/asm-g2-insump-protein-skimmer-sedra-pump-open-box-return.html
> 
> 
> 
> Vinegar shouldn't affect the silicone.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Yes, I am crazy! :grin2: and like my lovely wife loves to say, too cheap!
Money saved? I like to think so...it was 100 bucks for everything.



I was planning to drill my existing 60 gallon for an overflow. Just the overflow box I wanted is around 130 dollars. Sump, pump, plumbing etc would have costed much more...so I think this is a better bet. Plus I like this tank's dimensions and aspect ratio better.


PS: The cleaning (so far) was surprisingly easy. The tedious part is taking off the crusted coraline algae from the black plastic weir. :frown2:





andrewss said:


> Wow what a cleaning job you signed up for - good work though and nice money saved I'm sure!




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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

The double wall on overflow box is a high/low flow balanced design so water is pulled into all the slots on outer wall equally. 

When you get tank clean set on garage floor or outside on a level surface, shim if needed and leak test for few days to make sure all the seems are solid and don’t burst. You don’t want that happening in your house.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

DaveKS said:


> The double wall on overflow box is a high/low flow balanced design so water is pulled into all the slots on outer wall equally.
> 
> 
> 
> When you get tank clean set on garage floor or outside on a level surface, shim if needed and leak test for few days to make sure all the seems are solid and don’t burst. You don’t want that happening in your house.


Thanks for this info on the overflow box, Dave. It's a curious design. I used to think that weirs are supposed to skim water from the surface of the tank, so that it stays clean of the buildup we sometimes see in our tanks.

Also I read that co2 setups benefit from water skimmers, I forgot what their point was though.

And yes, I do plan to set this tank up on it's stand in the garage for a few days. Wanna make 100% it doesn't leak. The seller insisted that it doesn't leak, but when I went to pick it up, I noticed the carpet under it was wet. I pointed that out to them, but didn't get a satisfactory answer.

Maybe the two bulkhead fittings leak. I do plan to change those washers/seals with brand new ones.

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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

When you get to water testing with pump float a little flake food in front of those lower slots and you’ll see it suck it and upswell in the slot sweep it up and over that inner wall rim. 

We were building tanks with those type of overflows late 90’s early 2K era so they’ve been around for a while. 

You basically need enough pump to fill all the slots with decent water flow. If you want to go with lower output pump it wouldn’t be hard to modify that inner wall but still get good surface extraction.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*Clean tank!*

All right folks! I got the tank and the overflow super clean. The towel soaked in vinegar got almost all of the overflow clean. It dissolved almost everything there into a toothpaste type thingy.


So I got excited and went out and bought some Muriatic acid for the internal baffle of the overflow...it still had tons of deposits. But the acid did it :grin2: Man it fizzes and releases the bond almost immediately. Now the overflow's inside is squeaky clean!























I have set it up in the garage to check for leaks. Check out the pics:


Filling it:










I cannot get rid of these smudges in the glass, presumably made by the wavemakers










and











Overflow looks pretty big after filling it with water


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*Bummer!*

Uh! oh! Bad news...

I discovered some pretty obvious scratches. Looks like someone tried hard to take off something. Too bad the glass is scratched right in the middle of the viewing area. These were not obvious when I was cleaning the tank. Only after I filled water in it they became apparent. They are pretty visible when the tank is lighted up. I taped the background back, temporarily to see if I can live with the scratches...I guess I have no choice at this point :crying: They are hard to photograph....but pretty visible in person.


I'm pretty disappointed! :frown2::crying:

Check it out...



















I do not think scratches on glass can be repaired or reduced, right?


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## gjcarew (Dec 26, 2018)

I've heard of removing scratches with baking soda toothpaste or metal polish, but I have not idea if it actually works. Worst case scenario if you can't live with the scratched tank you could probably turn a profit on it now that it's all clean!


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

oh nooo, what a bummer!

yeah, I've googled it extensively and came up with the answer that polishing the glass was going be a fruitless effort. I have a scratch on the center of my tank as well and it's pretty deep since I can feel it with my finger nail. Several reef sites tried to suggest that using cerium oxide could get them out but it left a big hazy spot around the scratch and made it more visible. 

To be honest it is a pretty nice tank, you've already put the effort into cleaning it and once you have the tank scaped and with fish the scratch shouldn't be super visible in the grand scheme of things. 

sucks to have found it at this point but if it doesn't leak then I would move forward and keep setting up the tank.

Option b. would you consider plugging up the drilled holes/removing the overflow and turning the back glass into the main front glass?
you could set up the tank with filter pipes that come over the sides like normal?


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Barkeeper's Friend might be worth a try.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*Leak?*

Thanks guys. I think I am going to keep moving on with this project. It is definitely not worth trying to fix the scratches...just like you said,....and I also read a lot of stores on the internet. As for using it back to front...well, the whole point of getting this tank (personally speaking) was the built in overflow.
I think I can live with the scratches for now.


*But wait! Is this a leak?*

For two days, I have been watching a dark, slightly damp patch at the corner, in the wood...labelled as "1" in the photo. When I used to touch it, it felt damp. No drips on the floor, it did not spread, but that area stayed dark and damp. Only today I notice that it has dried up. 



I do see a tiny dark area ..labelled as "2" . But I cannot determine if "2" is damp today. Maybe it is merely coloring of the wood.


Would it take two days for a wet area to dry out in a hot garage?


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Barkeeper's Friend might be worth a try.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWVoYKNNi7c


Thanks for this tip!

I have that stuff. Works wonders on kitchen sinks and such. It seems to be a fine abrasive powder.

I will try to use it on the wavemaker mount smudges on the sides of the tank first.

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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

is there a way to set up the tank on another flat area to try and see if its leaking?


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

monkeyruler90 said:


> is there a way to set up the tank on another flat area to try and see if its leaking?



Well, it has those bulkhead fittings jutting out from the bottom of the tank. Those prevent it from being setup on a flat area, like the floor. 



I wonder if I could just remove those fittings and not fill it all the way up...........so the inside of the overflow stays dry.......that may allow me to set it up on the garage floor......right?


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*update*

Wow, about one and a half month has passed? Too many things to do, too little time. Hence progress on this project is rather slow.
Here is an update:


I managed to finish painting the cabinet and tank's trim white.


Along the way, found some water damage to the bottom of the cabinet. Replaced that plywood with solid wood. Then scraped and filled in the other water damage. Finally primed and painted it. Used Rustoleum Epoxy for appliances. Here are some pics









































Makeshift paint booth in garage.....bad idea! got over spray even 15 feet away!










Cabinet's photo, I think this was taken before the final coat.










I sprayed the trim white, this looks good to me! Sooo much better than than old fashioned fake oak wood finish.


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## EdWiser (Jul 14, 2015)

Looks good.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*A little update*

Hello world!


here is an update on this project.


I spent a couple of weeks designing and building the sump. There is a seperate thread about that, seen here:
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/1309419-please-help-design-rebuild-sump.html


Now I am doing the plumbing. Here is what I had planned for:













The PVC parts were bought from FlexPVC online. The box was big, heavy and expensive to ship like $35 shipping!












There are a lot of small things which need to be done. Like the glass canopies wont fit, too small. So I removed the original middle support and installed some glass strips, like this.










Here is how the canopy now sits on the top:










Then I installed the black background. It was surprisingly easy to do. Hopefully the massive, ugly overflow box will blend into the background.











I have been plumbing it for the past 2-3 days. Here is what the whole thing looks like today. Still gotta do the vertical plumbing parts. Off to do that now...










PS: I know, I know......too many elbows there! But I was out of space. Needed to leave space for CO2 cylinder on the right side and needed enough length for the manifold. Plus, if I moved the sump all the way to the right, the durso drain wont fit easily with 45 degree PVC pipe fittings. More details on all those thoughts later.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*Plumbing done!*

Ok folks, here are some photos of my plumbing work. There is a manifold which will be connected to the output of the return pump. There are two outputs in the manifold. Both outputs have unionized ball valves in them, making it easier to control the water flow in each output. The third valve is to cut off water flow back fr They will be used for:


1. Moving the moving media
(instead of using an air stone)


2. Providing water flow through an inline CO2 diffuser


Overall view:










Close up view from right side:











Close up view from left side:











Did some testing on the sump and its pump. Details in the sump build thread here:
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...-help-design-rebuild-sump-2.html#post11361139


*Still pending tasks:*




Still waiting on the soft silicone tubing to arrive. It will connect the pump to PVC pipe (via barbs). That will insulate the PVC pipe from the pump's vibrations. Those PVC fittings are also not glued in, I may need to adjust lengths.
The U shaped exit using PVC fittings (for accommodating the CO2 diffuser) are also not glued in, I may need to adjust lengths. Will be done on the day this tank goes into production.
The Durso drain's drain pipe's PVC fittings are not currently glued in. Gotta experiment with that. I heard a lot of noise the last time I tried it, in the original setup. Was thinking of drilling holes but I may want to start with just taking off the 2 end caps in the vertical drain pipe. Hoping that by the time water leaves the bottom of that tube, the air bubbles will rise and exit through the tube on top of that 45 degrees Y fitting. I saw that suggestion somewhere on the internet.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*another update*

Wow, time flies! Almost a month has passed from the last update I posted here?

Well, here is another update...


I have been working off and on on this project. Progress is very slow :-(
Here is what was done:


Installed some power strips. They have all outlets switched. Pretty expensive at $30 each.
Added wire management channels to keep all wiring neat and tidy.
Installed LED light strips on the inside of the cabinet.
Found a nice place for the LED light switch, it fits well behind the door. And hidden when the door is closed.
Added some adjustable shelves.
And finally, installed the doors back on. They have nice soft close Blum hinges now.

Check out the photos below. 
Our beloved doggie was very curious about what is going on, while I was taking the photos.

Completed cabinet:










Lit up interior:










Showing LED strip lights










Switched power strips and wire management










Shelves










Light switch












*Still pending tasks:*




Build light stand
Aquascaping design
RO water setup
Plumbing for AWC+ATO
Fire it all up!


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## Econde (Oct 13, 2015)

I don't normally like rims on a tank, but I must say this is looking fantastic. Good work!


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Econde said:


> I don't normally like rims on a tank, but I must say this is looking fantastic. Good work!



Thank you and yes, I totally agree with you. I am the same, I hate these rims....I drool over rimless tanks big time! :grin2:
For this project, the tank was cheap, it was there. Now I am thinking, if it all goes really well, I may want to replace this tank one day, with a rimless. Of course that may get expensive real fast. But then again, I have spent a TON of money on this project. 



By the way, the inspiration for this project is here:


https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...planted-tank-adventurama-21.html#post11328119


Tank-lights-cabinet...wow....I love that look!


Mine would be a super poor man's version of that.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Looks like you have quite the helper there too!


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*Lights!*

All righty folks! Another update:


Here is what I did:
I bought some LED lights (More on this soon)
Made a mounting system for them (More on this soon)
Installed them to the cabinet.
Moved the tank to its final location.
Bought some Black Diamond blasting sand.
Designed the RO DI filter system and bought it. Is coming next week. (More on this soon)


Next steps:
Buy and do plumbing of the ATO / AWC system
Aquascape 


Here is what it looks like now:


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*It is online!*

Happy New Year everyone!

A long time has passed wow... 3+ months since I posted here. I had lots of small-small things to do, and too little time. 
RO-DI setup was way too slow, but it is done now (almost, LoL). 
AWC is not setup.
Then the aquascaping process took way too long. 

Here is what it looks like today:










Still waiting on longer cables for the lights, they will be going inside the white pipes, and will be totally hidden 


Close ups of aquascaping and plants. Bought a bunch of plants from a local guy here. Many of them had no roots (just cuttings). Still fighting a Algae (hair algae + BBA) outbreak in this tank. 











Even more close ups. Some of the plants are in "rescue" mode....meaning I just planted them "somewhere" because they were not doing good because I left them floating in the tank for too many days :-(.










The Pennywort has taken off well. 
African ferm in the back was totally covered/infested by BBA. Sprayed it with Metricide 50% and seems like some of the BBA is dying, but today I see top parts of the plant are again getting infested.










HC cuba in the foreground is not doing too well. Something more needs to be done. Gotta find out what.
AR is also not growing vigorously.



Photos of the working sump:










Having a sump is the best! Anyone who is not using one is missing out, LoL!
Apart from the obvious benefits, here are the ones I really like:

* Gets rid of most of the equipment from the DT (display tank). I wish I could take out the 2 wave makers I have in there...ugly!
* Stable water level in the DT

Close up of the foam blocks and chambers:

PS: I need to install the wire management covers, Wires are looking super ugly. Still waiting for the cables to arrive....did Monoprice even ship them?










The second chamber has poret Aqua cubes which are support to move by the force of the water jet. Right now the jet is pointing to the back and hence, not much movement. I am planning to change the jet to it shoots upwards, hoping that will move the foam blocks.

I have not setup the AWC system, yet...need to do plumbing for it. As of today, the manual water changes are super easy. Put that blue hose into a bucket, switch on the AWC pump. It takes out around 2.5 gallons. 

Open the water input valve, water gets pumped in from the basement.
Dump the water
Wait for return chamber to fill
Close valve
Done!

I like how the control panel is on the inside of the door:











CO2 injection is working really well...and I "finally" do not have any micro bubbles in the DT. The Poret sponge catches all the micro bubbles.










I have the lights and CO2 controlled using some Wi-Fi controlled outlets. They have been working fine, have a phone app which controls their schedules.
CO2 comes on a couple of hours before the lights come on. 
Lights are on only for 4 hours < more on this problem later


I do have a bunch of problems I need to get sorted out.

Algae problems, BBA and hair algae.
CO2 injection timing
CO2 gas off during the night time, when CO2 is off.
Lights on timing


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Great build, great looking tank!


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## carseatdust (Dec 23, 2020)

Congratulations on getting to this stage of the build. The refurbish is really impressive. I have not seen/read much about using sumps in planted tanks. Could you share some links/resources that inspired your handiwork?

I like the echoes you've got going on between the dragonstone on one side and driftwood on the other, looking forward to seeing the scape grow in.

On the algae front, I'm sure you're researching all the things, but seeing as water changes seem easy could you up their rhythm? Do you have some floating plants in there?


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## rzn7z7 (Aug 17, 2013)

Congratulations on a stunning tank and great build!

It sure has come a long way from the tank pictured in the OP....well done!


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Thanks! This is my very first aquascape...spent a lot of time doing it...I am personally speaking, not too happy with it. I feel I have too small a tank, too over crowded looking.
I do not like the Dutch style / jungle look anyway....but this is starting to look like one. I do need to reposition some plants and maybe take out the really large ones.


* Inspiration*
Well, I read up on sumps mostly on saltwater forums, looked at designs and guidelines people post...Internet has a wealth of knowledge people share. For example I read and used these:


Aquarium Plumbing Basics - Reef Aquarium


https://expertaquarist.com/freshwater-sump-filter/


https://gmacreef.com/reef-aquarium-sump-tank-design/



I did try to stay away from what (IMHO) saltwater guys shoot themselves in the foot with....socks! Yuck! 

Instead I talked to Swiss Tropicals' Stephen Tanner who nudged me towards sock free, vertical Poret filter design...which I then modified to my personal needs....full details are here:
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/1309419-please-help-design-rebuild-sump.html


The late Mr. Ken Keating's thread also inspired me big time.


The white cabinet design - theme is inspired by another guy's rather expensive and VERY nice tank setup, I think I mentioned it in a post above here somewhere.


* Automatic water change system notes:*
Although I do not have the AWC system running yet...here are some of my notes...

People talking about DIY systems:

https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/water-changes-suck-heres-my-automated-system.500155/



Daily water change calculator

https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/EffectiveWaterChange.php



How much to change calculator:

http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Articles/TonyGriffitts/Water_Changes.htm 



Source for AWC components: AutoTopoff.com

​


As for Algae, yeah I am reading up on similar threads here. For example this one is a very good read, but I have not finished reading it yet:
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...lthy-plant-growth-algae-driving-me-crazy.html


* Answers to your Qs:*
I am already doing daily water change, only 2.5 gallon. Water is RO-DI so is absolutely zero everything, nitrates,m nitritess, etc. That is what was filled in the tank first day...re-mineralized of course with Seachem equilibrium...raised to 3GH



No floating plants, and not sure if I want them....won't they block the light?





carseatdust said:


> Congratulations on getting to this stage of the build. The refurbish is really impressive. I have not seen/read much about using sumps in planted tanks. Could you share some links/resources that inspired your handiwork?
> 
> I like the echoes you've got going on between the dragonstone on one side and driftwood on the other, looking forward to seeing the scape grow in.
> 
> On the algae front, I'm sure you're researching all the things, but seeing as water changes seem easy could you up their rhythm? Do you have some floating plants in there?


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## FiveToNineDesign (May 6, 2020)

*rajdude's &quot;house of horrors&quot; tank! Saltwater to freshwater conversion.*

Looks at pictures..
Looks at my tank..
Looks back at picture..
Cries. 


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

FiveToNineDesign said:


> Looks at pictures..
> Looks at my tank..
> Looks back at picture..
> Cries.
> ...


Ha ha [emoji1787]

Come on! Mine is not that good!

There are many others out here whose photos I look at and go...how do they get their tanks so clean...no algae, beautiful plants...how? How?

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## carseatdust (Dec 23, 2020)

Thanks for sharing the inspo/info for the sump build. It helps to have a "finding guide" to navigate the vastness of the www. Sump build is definitely beyond my skill set for now, and likely for some time, but I will still enjoy learning what I can from the design process and about water cycling generally!

On the scape front, if you're not happy with where this version is going I suspect you'll keep tinkering until you get there. Is there a way this combination of plants can help you diagnose some of the other issues you are having, so that if/when you replace them with others that have similar needs/growth patterns you'll be a little further along in your process? These plants could then function as starter plants to get you cycled and algae under control as you make decisions about whether you're going to go heavy on stems, crypts, buce, all of the above etc. 

For the HC Cuba, what I am seeing is that it is mostly in some of the harder to light parts of the tank (front edge, low substrate). Pointing out the bleeding obvious there, but if you rescape and want this to be a focus, you might think about burying some of that rock/wood in substrate to open up more field for the HC to play in.

On the floating plants front, yes they will cut down on light but you can calibrate this so that it's not all light. From what I've read, the advantage of floating plants is that they take in CO2 from the air and nutrients from the water column and so can out-compete algae for growth in early stages as other plants are expending more energy on establishing root structures and so on. So it's not necessarily a long-term thing, unless you want it to be. Walstad talks about it in this short piece and over on the UKAPS forum they talk a fair bit about monitoring using a "duckweed index"


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*Bunch of questions*

Well, rather than asking the same old questions in yet another new thread.....I found a good thread where I have just posted my problems.....
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...th-algae-driving-me-crazy-7.html#post11394001


Just for reference, I am cross posting the same things here:

I was wondering if someone can tell me in a concise and straightforward way what is this "balance" we planted tank guys talk about. I mean the "golden equilibrium" people talk about....I guess that is between, Fertilizer - CO2 - Light. How do we achieve that?

I have a new tank which is having similar troubles as the OP here. Lots of BBA and hair type algae

*Here is my list of questions:*

To reduce algae, which of these three things do I reduce: Fertilizer - CO2 - Light.
Do I push CO2 24 x 7?
People talk about varying CO2 causes algae. But then.. many recommend turning on CO2 one to two hours before lights come on, and turning it off an hour before lights off. Note: my CO2 levels drop dramatically during the night, checker turns totally blue in the morning.
What about temperature? 
Right now I am at 75F
I know there is a lot of talk in this thread about very granular control of water parameters. I am not sure if I would be able to do that myself.

*Here is what I have and do:*

Start: 2-3 weeks back 
75 gallon DT with a 30 gallon sump
Using RO-DI water, re-mineralized to 3GH using Seachem equilibrium
Inert substrate with root tabs
Doing PPS pro fertilizer schedule, NilocG Aquatic Labs' micros and macros every morning
2.5 gallon water change every evening, re-mineralized.
Lots of water flow in DT, ensured using two wave makers (heard stagnant water causes algae).
Two very high PAR capable lights (sb reef lights, freshwater version). 
I made the mistake of leaving them on for 6-8 hours a day for a week, algae went crazy. Now I am down to 4 hours a day....at around 50% warm white + 25% blue-white Plants pearl just fine.
CO2 injection, high pressure
Have tried dosing Metricide (Excel) Helped a bit

*Problems/Issues:*

Algae grower expert. Mostly BBA and hair algae.
Most plants are doing reasonably well, growing fast, other than the ferns, which are BBA infested. Sprayed them with 50% Metricide (approx=straight excel).....that helps, but they get infested again, within days.
HC is not doing good.
Many plants are growing roots from everywhere, yuck! What do I do? Cut them off?


Thanks for any and all suggestions!


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Thanks for the tips. I agree, this one is my first serious planted tank and is a journey and education also.
Aqusacape......I think it needs more color, reds and purples.......and I do have some red plants.......just they are not growing fast enough. I think that is because the seller gave me cuttings instead of established plants.

Totally agree about location of HC cuba. I have also noticed that my lights do drop off quite a bit from the center out.

Will check out floaters. My lovely wife has a ton of Pothos plants around the house. I hear that is also good for extracting too much organics from the water and helps reduce algae........not sure how much of that is actually true.


As for the sump, it can be as simple as you want it to be or as complicated as you can make it....mine is surely a little bit more complicated with the manifold and other stuff.
But don't let that scare you off from sumps. I have seen many which are very simple.



carseatdust said:


> Thanks for sharing the inspo/info for the sump build. It helps to have a "finding guide" to navigate the vastness of the www. Sump build is definitely beyond my skill set for now, and likely for some time, but I will still enjoy learning what I can from the design process and about water cycling generally!
> 
> On the scape front, if you're not happy with where this version is going I suspect you'll keep tinkering until you get there. Is there a way this combination of plants can help you diagnose some of the other issues you are having, so that if/when you replace them with others that have similar needs/growth patterns you'll be a little further along in your process? These plants could then function as starter plants to get you cycled and algae under control as you make decisions about whether you're going to go heavy on stems, crypts, buce, all of the above etc.
> 
> ...


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

rajdude said:


> My lovely wife has a ton of Pothos plants around the house. I hear that is also good for extracting too much organics from the water and helps reduce algae........not sure how much of that is actually true.


I've used Pothos in a sump before. Zero nitrates. That's was exactly what I was aiming for with my Mbuna tank, it might not be want you want in a planted tank. :- ) But I guess it is about finding a balance. I guess you can throw a piece in and monitor it. It is easier to remove if if it is in a chamber without other media since the roots will become intertwined with the media. Not impossible to remove it, just messy. You'll leave roots behind and that's unsightly, which, given the clean setup you have, wouldn't be appropriate.

And you've really inspired me for a future build out. Thanks!


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Hi Rajdude! Read through your impressive rebuild of this setup. Kudos. It all looks great! Saw your question in the other thread as well, but for these things, it may help more to have it in your own journal so you can go back to it. 





rajdude said:


> I was wondering if someone can tell me in a concise and straightforward way what is this "balance" we planted tank guys talk about. I mean the "golden equilibrium" people talk about....I guess that is between, Fertilizer - CO2 - Light. How do we achieve that?


So, I'm sure you have, but if you haven't, take a visit to the 2Hr Aquarist's site. It's pretty much required reading these days for new hobbyists! This section would probably most relevantly answer your question: 2Hr Aquarist: 3 Growth Pillars And you can click through to delve deeper into each topic. The gist is that well, it's 3 pillars, or termed in another conversation, a 3 legged stool? Something you want balanced if you want to achieve good results. Some have brought in the 4th leg/pillar and that is good maintenance. Or maybe that's the foundation to the whole thing? Anyway, how do we achieve it. Haha. We spend the rest of the hobby trying to achieve it! IF you did already, there'd be no hobby! I suppose that's only the way I view it. Perhaps you feel that you've gotten balance just because you can get rid of your algae. In that case.... let's carry on.




> I have a new tank which is having similar troubles as the OP here. Lots of BBA and hair type algae
> 
> *Here is my list of questions:*
> 
> ...


To reduce algae, I always approach light as the first thing to reduce. The gas pedal of a car analogy is used quite often around here and also again, at the aforementioned site : 2Hr Aquarist: Prevent Algae Growth. The gist is, less light, you go slower and you have less of a chance of running into trouble when your plants run short of the other two : co2 and/or fertilizer. Co2 is beguilingly hard to get right sometimes. Fertilizer/Nutrients can be sneaky too if you miscalculate or misdiagnose. You're already ahead of the game in this dept by going RO as you've cut out the variable of what's in your city's water but you've got a different can of worms of maintaining/optimizing the RO supply and so on.

Co2 24x7 is a mere preference around here. Success is found both ways and the rationales for doing so vs a timed period vary, BUT, the timed period fluctuation is not what you're interpreting. The varying CO2 that causes algae is mostly when you can't maintain it well enough DURING the lighting period. This is DURING the stressed growing period of the plants where they need to be absorbing as much CO2 and nutrients as they can so the goal is to never run out of either. You may think, oh, just inject so many bubbles, how can I run out? Well, it's not so much running out but rather various things that can cause a plant to experience fluctuation. Sometimes its all plants, sometimes it's only some plants. There's all sorts of issues such as surface agitation, flow patterns, proper dissolution -- even something as inane as a clogged check valve. This is discussed here: 2Hr Aquarist: Optimizing CO2

Temperature is not as sensitive as the others I believe. I know the Green Aqua youtube channel (another awesome resource, btw) generally recommends tanks to be below 75 based on their experience, but I feel from the vibe over the years that that is one of the finer optimization tweaks.. Does it help? Maybe, but you'd get much better bang for the buck in the beginning by working on the other 3 pillars first.



> *Here is what I have and do:*
> 
> Start: 2-3 weeks back
> 75 gallon DT with a 30 gallon sump
> ...



Sometimes, some of these imbalances are just due to your tank being new. As another poster said, it looks awesome already. Just sit back and enjoy it a little. You did a great analysis and resolution by reducing your lighting in response to your first algae occurrences. BBA is one of the trickiest algaes and don't feel bad if you have a time with it. The best established tanks on here still deal with it on an ongoing basis. You know, however, you're okay if your plants are not infested with BBA. However, as you stated, your ferns still have them, so yes, they need continued work, but like you said "most" plants are doing reasonably well. That's half the battle already! So, the thing about plants, once a leaf is damaged/leaking to be bba infected, it can't really heal itself. It works all leaky and creaky for the plant until it grows new leaves. This is likely why you kill the existing BBA and new ones just grow on it again. So keep optimizing other things until you get enough new leaves to safely just cut these old ones off. This is what most mean by ... grow the plants, not fight the algae. As you may have noticed, the BBA is not picking on the plants that are doing "reasonably well." 


Growing plants mean more than just supplying the right nutrients. You have to consider that perhaps your hardscape is affecting flow of CO2 and/or nutrients or causing too much accumulation of organics. Perhaps there's too much shade or not enough shade. These are all things considered in terrestrial gardening and it holds true here. 

I've never grown HC, but I've grown monte carlo ( an easier alternative ) and as mentioned in the 2Hr Aquarist's site, it generally desires good light, good co2. It's almost a reliable indicator that you're either not getting enough --- whether its the entire tank or maybe just that localized area due to flow issues.

Plant roots.. umm, I think that's just something you have to cope with for stem plants. It's what they do. Some see this as a time to pull them up, remove the bottom up to the first ring of roots, and replant. As a person who is looking to grow plants well, I tend not to remove all the roots when I do this as you'll cause the plant to work itself to grow a new round of roots before it continues to worry about growing new leaves. Perhaps in time, you will find more suitable plants with similar looks that behave differently, less prone to shooting out roots. Sometimes, with the right mix of nutrients, they behave differently. Or, you learn to hide them as you start working with your scapes. 

Yeap, these rabbit holes get deep and that's what makes continued dedication to the hobby fun? Interesting? or frustrating to others and they move on. 

Well, I definitely supplied a story when maybe you've asked for more direct actions... IF it were my tank (and take it with a grain of salt, as my track record hasn't been the best  ), maybe my set of actions going forward would be: 

1) Play with the lighting even more. You may ask, how do I reduce more? I can't see the tank anymore if I do! I don't know how programmable the sbreeflights are but some people around here adopt a "midday spike" lighting profile. So, say, you want a 6 hour lighting period (or more, cuz well, you want to enjoy the tank too right?). You set hours 1-2:30 at maybe eh 20%? 2:30-3:30 at 80% so all the plants get their growth in 3:30-6 back at 20%. Just numbers pulled out of thin air. You may play with them as you watch what works with your plants.

2) Focus on CO2. focus on flow, focus about agitation, focus on everything there is to worry about for co2 and think about it some more  

3) Keep up your fastidious maintenance and watch out for challenges that your scape may bring you.

Anyway, you're off to a great start already -- much better than my start many years back. so

4) Good luck and enjoy the ride!


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*thanks!*

Thank you very much for the detailed answers to my questions.

*CO2:*
I think I am pretty sure I am not having stable CO2 levels during the photo period. It takes too long to ramp up CO2 in this sump'ed tank, due to off gassing during the night. I have regularly seen blue bulb for a couple of hours AFTER lights went on, even though CO2 was on an hour before lights were turned on.
I will experiment with CO2 on 24 x 5 now.


Another thing I can do is this procedure, I read in another thread here:


_A simplistic attempt to describe balance would be as follows: The level/intensity of light you have will trigger the need for a certain level of both CO2 and nutrients. High light will stimulate a high rate of photosynthesis, thus requiring high concentrations of CO2 and ample nutrients (to build up the plant matter). At low light levels, the requirement for CO2 and nutrients is dialed back accordingly. So balance is when you supply enough CO2, and enough nutrients that the light demands. It is easier to balance when the light is lower. _

_The uptake of CO2 is during the photo period, so like many others do, concentrate on getting optimum CO2 levels during this time. _

_What is the correct CO2 level, and how do you arrive at it? It is generally accepted that growth improves when you reach CO2 concentrations of around 10ppm. Consider that if inject no CO2 the level is closer to 2-3ppm. Growth is even better as you approach higher levels in the range of 30ppm (or higher). You have a limit to how high you can go because of the toxicity to the fish, although higher levels of O2 allow you to push the Co2 level higher. _

_If your CO2 unit is effective at dissolving CO2, with a high enough bubble rate, you will be able to achieve your target. How do you know when you reach it? This is not easy, and I'm not sure anyone can confidently say what their CO2 level is in ppm. That said, there is an approach which will help, and it is based on the fact that the concentrations of CO2 will alter the ph level (equilibrium established based on your aquarium's buffer). _

_So start by measuring your pH in the morning before your lights go on (and your CO2 was off all night). You might get around 7.6. Adjust your bubble counter to 1 bps (or more aggressive if you have experience running safely at a higher rate) and let the pH settle. This may take a few hours. Measure the pH. How much did it move? Over a period of several days, slowly increase the rate each day until you get a pH drop of about .8 to 1.0 drop (continue to monitor your fish for stress). Some people keep this process going UNTIL the fish show signs. _

_It is at this point that you have done the best you can to stabilize CO2 at its maximum level for your tank, and should not need to adjust the nozzle any further. You can safely turn off the CO2 at lights out, and turn it back on again 1 hour prior to lights on. No need for a controller in this case. The use of a drop checker will also help determine when your CO2 levels have reached an adequate level, but I still think a pH measurement is a more disciplined approach. _
​*Flow:*
Since I have a high flow rate return pump (adjustable) I think I have enough flow turnover through the sump. Additionally, I have two wavemakers in the DT, which create crazy water movement in the DT. They are programmed to run alternatively, creating a left-right movement for the plants to "enjoy". Sill I will observe it carefully for any dead flow areas now.

*Lighting:*
Yes, experimentation is needed. I think I am going to try the "siesta" time some people talk about.
My lights do not have a ramp up-down feature, but I can turn on-off the warm-white and the blue white "banks" in the lights separately and both are on wi-fi timer devices, easily programmable via an app.









ipkiss said:


> Hi Rajdude! Read through your impressive rebuild of this setup. Kudos. It all looks great! Saw your question in the other thread as well, but for these things, it may help more to have it in your own journal so you can go back to it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*CO2 tuning*

All right, so today here is what I did/observed:


CO2 was off all night
Drop checker was solid blue in the morning
Lights came on at 11 am
I kept CO2 off because I was planning to measure pH
At around 12:25 pH was 7.2 and CO2 was off < yeah :-( got late in measuring pH. Had some office meetings.
Started injection at the rate of (maybe) 5 bps or 10; cannot really tell. But I know my tank-sump system needs a huge injection rate of CO2 because of off-gassing.
At 3:15 PM, pH measures 6.7
So in approximately 3 hours, pH dropped by 0.5
Now lights are going off, so I turned off CO2 also.
Fish seem to be ok, not gasping
Will rinse-repeat tomorrow :smile2:

and shoot! I forgot to put ferts today morning :-(





*Two observations:*

* I find it interesting that the drop checker did not change much today. Usually, it is light yellow by this time. I must be pushing more BPM earlier. Today I adjusted the rate.



* In my system, the usual advice of turning on CO2 about one hour before lights will not work...because CO2 will not reach the optimum ppm level in one hour. I am guessing it will take 4-5 hours or even more.


Should I think of keeping CO2 on 24 x 7 instead?
(and of course bring down the bubble rate.)


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*Day 2, parameter testing*

ok so today I found out a very interesting thing:


*GH has gone crazy*

Tank water's GH is off the charts. I had to put 7 drops to change the color.
API test kit's chart goes only to 5 drops :surprise:
I did the test twice and got same results


KH changed at 2 drops


Then I checked my RO-DI water's GH and KH. Both changed at the first drop...which is expected. What made the GH get so high? The rocks?


History:
First time fill with RO-DI water: 0 GH tested
Estimation of water capacity of the system: *68 gallons* total 




To raise it to 3 GH, this calculator says add 163 grams 

https://www.seachem.com/calculators.php

12/10/2020 night time : I added 100 grams Seachem Equilibrium 
​



I have no record of testing GH after that until today, so maybe that 100 grams of Equibrium was too much?





*CO2 tuning:*


8 AM:
pH = 7.1

turned on CO2 injection and adjusted BMP to little bit higher than yesteray.


11 AM:
Lights came on



2 PM:
pH = 6.4
CO2 off
Fishes are fine, not gasping.



Hence:

Change of 0.7 pH in 6 hours.


This is not making any sense.
Yesterday, pH dropped by 0.5 in 3 hours
Today, pH dropped by 0.7 in 6 hours.


Maybe plants are consuming CO2 too fast for the system to cope up?


Ideally the 0.8 to 1 pH drop should have happened by the time the lights come on, right?
That means I should turn on CO2 at 5 AM, and that may give me more drop since plants are not photosynthesizing until 11 AM, that is when the lights come on.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*More CO2 notes*

1/10/2021 CO2 notes:


7:30 AM CO2 started manually
pH = 7.1


2:30 PM lights off
pH = 6.6


So this was a drop of 0.5 pH in 7 hours, but note that lights were on, so CO2 was being consumed by the plants.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Another update from today...

6:30 am - co2 on, assuming off gassed pH of 7.1

10:00 am - lights on, pH = 6.4
Means 0.7 pH drop in 3.5 hours

2:00 pm - lights off, pH = 6.4

Hey! That is good, right? 
I mean no pH drop during the photo period [emoji106][emoji846]

Tomorrow, I'll have the co2 turn on at 6 am, automatically using the WiFi enabled outlet controllers.

I also notice reduced BBA algae growth, but thread type algae is still there.


Sent from my H8314 using Tapatalk


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*Scheduled*

All right, I fixed the problem with the Wi-Fi network and the switched outlets today (basically had to separate the 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz bands) and they are now online.


I have set schedule as follows:


*CO2: *

On at 5 AM
Off at 3 PM


*White light:* (blu-ish light, set to dim level)

On at 10:45 AM
Off at 3:15 PM


*Warm light:* (bright light, main photo period)

On at 11 AM
Off at 3 PM



So this should give us 4 hours of photo period and enough CO2 during it.
The start and stop of photo period has 15 minutes of dim light, in the hopes to give the fish a little less shock.


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## gjcarew (Dec 26, 2018)

Your water changes seem super small. Have you thought about making a R/O reservoir to do larger water changes?


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Thanks for reading my journal and your feedback.


I do have a 55 gallon RO water reservoir in the basement. It is kept full by the valves-controllers there. Water is brought upstairs and into the sump using a demand pump (I should do a "write up / show and tell" for that system).

I am following a small daily water change regimen instead of a weekly large water change, which most people do. According to my calculations, taken from this calculator, I am doing around 25% water change per week.
















gjcarew said:


> Your water changes seem super small. Have you thought about making a R/O reservoir to do larger water changes?


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## gjcarew (Dec 26, 2018)

Ah, I didn't realize you had a R/O reservoir. I think you should probably include the volume of the sump in your calculation as well, rather than just the tank. It looks like that would put water changes closer to 20%. With 20% weekly water changes, PPS pro dosing, and assuming no uptake of nitrogen or addition due to fish waste (big assumption here) then that would put your maximum NO3 accumulation at roughly 35 PPM in the water column. Not that that's a problem, just some food for thought in case you ever want to try to lower nitrates. Greggz has a cool accumulation worksheet in his signature under "Google drive files."

For my own tank I need to change at least 5 gallons just to be able to vacuum the top of the soil, siphon the detritus from the plants, and pick up any leftover food and free floating algae. If you're just siphoning from the sump, you are getting the "dilution factor" of your water changes, but not necessarily removing the physical mulm that builds up in the bottom of the tank. I'd be willing to bet if you gave the substrate a good vacuuming once a week, maybe 5 gallons' or so, you would see a decrease in the hair algae.

I'm not a prescriptivist about water changes, I know a lot of folks don't do the large water changes and it works out just fine. For me though it really seems to help with keeping the tank in top shape.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*Thanks*

Thanks for the good information!  I am not familiar with the spreadsheet you mention, but will look for it.


I am including the water in the sump in the 68 gallons I estimate. Just double checked it...here is my calculation...


Estimation of water capacity of the system: 68 gallons total --



Sump: 18 gallons 

Filled area 12 x 12 x 29" 



Tank: 50 gallons 

Filled area 47" x 17" x 19" = 65 gallons 

Maybe 25% is taken by furnishings 

So it contains approximately 50 gallons 
​







I have not vacuumed this tank's substrate yet, mostly because 

1. The roots of many plants have not 'taken' yet and
2. Most of the substrate is covered up by plants now


I do plan to do maintenance once a week: vacuum, cleanup, trimming plants etc. I am thinking of using one of my old unused canister filters to help with sucking up debris and maybe even plant trimmings. Trimmings become a total mess!



I totally agree about doing water changes. However, I feel that small frequent water changes (once or twice daily) are better than large water change once a week. Read some articles about that on the 'net...I think that makes more sense for keeping the water parameters more stable. Once I have the AWC system setup, I could easily program it to do WC twice a day. That should easily top 5 gallons a day.






gjcarew said:


> Ah, I didn't realize you had a R/O reservoir. I think you should probably include the volume of the sump in your calculation as well, rather than just the tank. It looks like that would put water changes closer to 20%. With 20% weekly water changes, PPS pro dosing, and assuming no uptake of nitrogen or addition due to fish waste (big assumption here) then that would put your maximum NO3 accumulation at roughly 35 PPM in the water column. Not that that's a problem, just some food for thought in case you ever want to try to lower nitrates. Greggz has a cool accumulation worksheet in his signature under "Google drive files."
> 
> For my own tank I need to change at least 5 gallons just to be able to vacuum the top of the soil, siphon the detritus from the plants, and pick up any leftover food and free floating algae. If you're just siphoning from the sump, you are getting the "dilution factor" of your water changes, but not necessarily removing the physical mulm that builds up in the bottom of the tank. I'd be willing to bet if you gave the substrate a good vacuuming once a week, maybe 5 gallons' or so, you would see a decrease in the hair algae.
> 
> I'm not a prescriptivist about water changes, I know a lot of folks don't do the large water changes and it works out just fine. For me though it really seems to help with keeping the tank in top shape.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*Update:*
I trimmed the plants yesterday evening. It is the second time, after planting them. 
It was a long time consuming chore :-(

I used an old unused canister as a "vacuum" for both cleaning gravel and also for sucking up trimmings. It is a Fluval G6, and is just too smart, kept turning off, boot up is slow etc. I gotta use a simple dumb canister next time. Also setup and cleanup time is too long, this way.

I wonder what others do for sucking up trimmings. Some of my trimmings do not float up, like that christmass moss. It sinks and gets in all nooks and crannies of the tank :-(

*Photo time!*
Anyway, here is what the tank looks like today (how to take better tank pics? This was taken on my Canon 6D, fully manual settings):









*My notes / observations / rants:*

Ummm......gotta remove that thermometer.....looking ugly. 
I had put it in the DT to measure temp, there is a couple of degrees difference in between the sump, where the temp controller sensor is and the DT. controller is set to 75F. DT measures less.
Also, I wish I could remove those 2 wavemakers from the DT

Plants are doing well, for the most part....growing like weeds actually! 
The left side of the tank looks nice to me. The tiger lotus plant is growing leaves like elephant ears! too big IMHO...but I do not want to cut them....not yet at least. Wife loves the pennywort, I think it is a little too much, so I trimmed it back to my liking.

Right side of the tank ....ummmmm no! Need some contrasting colored plants to the rocks. Maybe purple or darker colored Buce?
HC Cuba seems to be growing well. I just hacked it for the first time...maybe not enough? I wonder how people get the tight carpet.
Trying to grow flame moss on vertical mesh....visible all the way to the right. 
Also, I wonder why my AR (Alternanthera Reineckii) plants are not doing anything (I put them in the middle, hoping for some contrast with the white pebbles.



By the way, although the fight with algae has not been won 100%, it sure is much better......looks like there is no more BBA. yeah baby!
But I do see green algae growing on the rocks....the photo was taken after scrubbing them. Also see a very tiny bit of hair algae. Maybe I should dose Metricide.

Still need to fix those power cables. Looking ugly. I have the longer ones I ordered, just need to snake them through the white pipes working as light mounts...I am the king of procrastination! 
Too many things to do.......too little time!


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

I got some new additions! Discus fish 

A few weeks back I went to Baltimore 'burbs to Discus Hans's fish room. Very nice guy, BTW. I got 4 fish from him. Take a look! I will be going there tomorrow again, to get some more Discus. Maybe a total of 8 to 9 Discus would be nice in this tank.
This is right after I trimmed and removed some plants. More on the plant situation later on.










In addition to the Discus, I also have 4 Ghost Catfish and one Albino catfish. They are hard to see, other than at feeding times.

*Hot water, plants etc*
Ok so once it was obvious that Discus are coming, I slowly raised the DT's temp from 74 to 82F over a period of few days.
Once the Discus were in, I raised it further to 84F, as per Hans' recommendation.

After a week or so I noticed that some plants were not too happy, they were melting. These ones simply could not take it:
Myriophyllum Roraima 
This lost most of its leaves, leaving a bare stem.
Brazilian Pennywort 
This was so pretty, but most of the plant melted.

I tried raising the ferts and CO2 also, but to no avail. So yesterday night, I took them out. Also took out some plants which were making it look too "plant heavy"...ha ha.....a planted tank too "plant heavy" ?? Nah! I think I just did not like those plants.

I left a little bit of Pennywort.....hoping that it will grow back. But I planted HC on the left side of the tank. HC does not seem to mind the high temps.

Hardware:
Heater:
I had to add another 300 W heater in the sump (identical to the 300W I had in there. A single could not bring up the temps to 84F. House is around 72F.

Plumbing for AWC
I also did the plumbing for automatic water change system (AWC). I have it in the manual mode right now. It is a joy to hit one button to drain the sump and another to fill it! Best thing since sliced bread  
Gotta do a write up on it soon.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

Holy crap!!! Amazing transformation!! My jaw just hit the floor!!


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

Tank looks great, and the fish are gorgeous - well done!


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Thank you guys!



Hey guys, check out the new Discus fish I got last Friday! Drove a couple of hours to Discus Hans’ fish store again. Was happy to see Hans is doing ok after the heart attack. 
My lovely wife and I picked up 5 more fish...very carefully. There is a lot of variance...in the same tank, some look “meh” others look “wow”! Of course we wanted the prettiest looking ones. 
So now I have a total of 9 Discus. They are around 4” right now. 

Oh! By the way, the jungle like plant cluster right in the middle of the tank are the plants I wanna get rid of. I took them out of my ‘scape...but left them floating in there. I don’t want to throw them away, so I listed them on Craigslist and Facebook market place. Hopefully someone will want them soon. 




















These photos were taken the day after I introduced them into the tank. I notice now that many of them were not exhibiting their real colors...like for example, the one all the way to the right (in these photos) is Stender’s “blue diamond” and is very blue in color. In these pics he is more pinkish. If I look at him today, he is the correct color. 
Gotta post more photos


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

fish look amazing and so does the tank!


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

Those are some beautiful discus!!! Thank you for sharing!!!!


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*Automatic Water Change system (AWC)*
Here is some information on how I built my automatic water change system. 

Note: Although I am calling it AWC, the "automatic" part is not there, yet. I still need to build the electronics/electrical part which will be the “brains” behind the AWC. I have the parts: sensors, relays, etc but need to implement it. Soon! 

*Design: *
Here are the goals of the AWC design: 

First, it should be capable of both automatic and manual operation 

Must have multiple fail-safe mechanisms 

Able to drain water from the sump by pressing a button 

Able to drain water from the DT (display tank) 

Able to fill water from the RO-DI reservoir in the basement into the sump by pressing a button 

Able to fill water from the RO-DI reservoir in the basement into the DT 

A rough design diagram I drew:
I did not use the elbow and screen in the sump, thought there was no need for it.










*Build: *
Most of the parts are from local hardware store. 
The electric solenoid water valve is from autotopoff.com 
The pump is an old Danner model, same one which came with my tank (see my first post here)
It does not self prime, so I needed a way to fill the pipes with water. Was easily done by opeing the valve at the top and pouring water down the union.

Danner Model 3 
E160713 
This can be run outside water also. 
Model 3 - ITEM# 02513 
Max. Watts/Amps: 35/0.6 
Volts: 120 / 60Hz 
Inlet: 1/2" FPT 
Outlet: 1/2" MPT 
Cord Length: 10' 
Dimensions (L x W x H): 5.0" x 3.8" x 4.2" 
Supreme Aqua-Mag Magnetic Drive Water Pumps | Danner Manufacturing Inc. 


Photo showing the build (not connected to water in-out plumbing, yet)










Here is it in place, behind the tank-cabinet










(need to add a photo of the sump)

*In use: *
Right now the AWC is in manual mode. 

Here is how I use it: 

Shut down power on the power strip where return pump, heaters, wavemakers, etc are plugged into 

Hit the electrical switch on the power strip where the drain pump is plugged into 

Wait until the sump is drained, leave a little water to ensure the siphon remains intact. 

Shut off drain pump 

Hit the electrical switch on the power strip where the input water solenoid valve is plugged into. 

Wait until the water level reaches the marked shutdown level on the sump 

Shut off solenoid 

Done! 

Usually, this process takes less than 5 minutes from start to finish. 
 

*Thoughts: *
If I were to do it again... 

I would use half inch flexible pipe instead of hard PVC. I think it may be easier to use and easier to take apart. Although both have their pros and cons 

Use more fail-safe devices


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## gjcarew (Dec 26, 2018)

I think you can officially change the name from "house of horrors"! Those discus are stunning.

Assuming you're still doing the 2.5 gallon AWC per day. Do you ever feel like you need to vacuum the substrate? I've heard discus need a lot of food and can be messy eaters


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Very nice and interesting tank. Great scape and plants look nice and healthy. 

The Discus look awesome too I hope they do well for you.

Well done I look forward to more updates.


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## saltmeup (Feb 6, 2021)

Exceptional build and progress. Wow !! 
Definitely some things for me to aspire too with my similar build. 

Lots of upgrade potential on my end !!

Thanks for sharing


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Thanks! I also love how these Discus look. To me, saltwater fish are the "holy grail" on super-pretty looking fish. On the freshwater side, I think Discus are pretty much at the top, when it comes to colorful fish.

Change the name? Ha ha....yes, maybe I should do that  Although I like the "sensationalization" of the topic, LoL

*About the quantity of water I change every day:*
Yesterday, I (finally) actually measured the amount of water which comes out. It filled out a whole 5 gallon bucket...almost all the way to the first tab line. That is the line most people say corresponds to 5 gallons. So I think I can safely say I am replacing approximately 5 gallons every day. Now if I plug that into the daily water change calculator (entering 68 gallons as total water volume):




__





Effective Water Change Calculator


Aquarium calculator; Estimate the effective water change amount of several combined smaller water changes.




www.hamzasreef.com




It comes to 41% water changed per week.
I think that should be ok.

I think the final test is the accumulation of Nitrates over time...right now it has been at around 40 ppm. If I can keep it below 40 long term, with 5 gallons change every day....I think I should be fine.

*About vacuuming substrate:*
Yes, I do vacuum the substrate, but only rarely. Usually I feel a need to do it after a particularly messy feeding session...meaning where the Discus left a lot of food uneaten. I find this tool very helpful for cleaning up:








EHEIM Quick Vacpro


EHEIM Quick Vacpro - automatic gravel cleaner The battery powered gravel cleaner enables you to clean the gravel substrate in your aquarium with…




eheim.com






And yes, Discus do eat a lot (and poop a lot too). They can be messy...but there is a way to minimize the mess. One can find a balance between how much (quantity) to feed and how much they will leave uneaten. There are two things to keep in mind there:
1. Size of Discus
Very small Discus (less than 4") need to eat more frequently. Hans suggested going with 4-5" sized fish for my situation (planted tank). They can be fed little less frequently. Also, that way, their immune system is also better developed than babies.

2. Quantity
I feed them just enough food so they finish everything. They eat 3 times a day.





gjcarew said:


> I think you can officially change the name from "house of horrors"! Those discus are stunning.
> 
> Assuming you're still doing the 2.5 gallon AWC per day. Do you ever feel like you need to vacuum the substrate? I've heard discus need a lot of food and can be messy eaters


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Here's a quick and dirty photo, taken by my cellphone... just because they all were standing in a line... looking pretty...












Sent from my H8314 using Tapatalk


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*How much are your tanks costing you every month, just in electricity?*

I noticed that ever since Discus came in, the house's electricity bill is pretty high. 
So today, I put a watt meter (Watts up Pro) to the tank. Here is what I found out: 

With everything "on": 1070 watts 
Lights + CO2 solenoid: 92 watts 
Return pump and 2 wavemakers: 85 watts 
Heaters: 893 watts 

Now, many of these things will not stay on all 24 hours. Lights are on for only 5 hours. The heaters switch on-off as needed. I will let the Watts up pro log the electricity consumption data over a week or so and then extract the data and graph it....but it sure looks like the aquarium is costing me a pretty penny in electricity bills. 

If I assume, as a very rough estimate, the duty cycle of this 1070 watts load is 50%, it will cost me around $46 per month. Wow! 

I used this calculator and put 12 cents per KWh for Virgina.





Energy cost calculator


Electrical energy cost calculator and how to calculate.




www.rapidtables.com


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

rajdude said:


> *How much are your tanks costing you every month, just in electricity?*
> 
> I noticed that ever since Discus came in, the house's electricity bill is pretty high.
> So today, I put a watt meter (Watts up Pro) to the tank. Here is what I found out:
> ...


Interesting. I have gone through the exercise of adding up all my max watts across all tanks so I could get an adequately powerful generator for emergencies, but I've never tried to figure out my average usage and cost. I think this might fall under the general hobby rule: _never add it all up!_


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

Oh the joys!! There's a reason my large tanks are cold water... My electric bills were over $2000/ month when I was breeding and almost all of it was in heating them. My monthly bill is now around $100/ month. There's a reason I warn people of their upcoming electric bills when they talk about 100+ gallon tanks with heat loving species. Good luck to you!! I never took the time to break down how much power went where but I had all my heaters on one generator and everything else on a second. I'm down to 1 generator now.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

OMG!! two thousand dollars? Amazing!
Makes me wonder what Discus Hans' fish room / warehouse bill is. He keeps those tanks very high temp, probably close to 90F..and has a warehouse full of them. No wonder there is no air-conditioning there....that is what is says also..."no need for air-conditioning!"

Actually, at no point I never thought about the water heating bill :-( and no one warned me too, ha ha! ;-) I frequent that Discus forum also (SD)........but have never read anyone mention electricity bill. I guess that is a given.

Now this makes me think.........what can be done to reduce the energy consumption in my situation?

Insulation?

I could easily insulate the sump. Styrofoam on back, sides, and even top is do-able. Front....IDK about that...but is do-able...if I really wanted to

The Display Tank.........well, only the back could be insulated...maybe the sides....but it will be visible and ugly looking.
I already have tight glass covers at the DT's top




PS: I have not even thought about the heater inside the RO water drum (Brute trash can) in my basement. Reducing its consumption should be relatively easy...a water heater blanket should help there.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

I was running several tanks that were over 150 gallons and a couple 500 gallon tanks at above 80°. Luckily my overages were a write off at the end of year 2 when I ran my business. First couple years was super rough. Insulating definitely helps, if had to insulate all of my large basement breeder tanks. I haven't been active on forums until now but whenever I see anybody wanting to do 100+ gallon discus or angel tanks I always put out the warning because it is a pretty big monthly expense, especially if you live in a more temperate region. Winters suck the money down fast.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Ha ha! And I was recently thinking about getting a 125 gallon!

Now I'm thinking solar panels! One of my neighbors got a huge solar panel array installed recently. It covers his whole roof including his garage also.

Unfortunately, I am in a rental sf house temporarily, for a couple of years more.

Sent from my H8314 using Tapatalk


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

I am still struggling with too much ammonia :-( 
I can kep it check if I feed less. Ammonia rises if I feed BH until the fish are satisfied.

Just posted a new thread in the Discus forum, let's see what others say
Struggling with too much Ammonia. Any tips?


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