# What is the secret to UG?



## dknydiep1 (May 21, 2006)

I have tried to grow UG on 3 seperate occasions, and have failed every time.

I am trying 1 last time with my emmersed setup since I saw some at AFA the other day for a decent price.

Any tips?


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## Clare12345 (Dec 20, 2008)

I am failing to grow UG right now. And I think it has to do with the fact that I don't use CO2, but I'm planning to get some. 
I have:
Aquasoil
Ferts
Moderate to High Lighting
no fish that mess with the plants.

Ok the UG is growing but it's a very light green and not growing the way I want it to. 

What are your specs? Anyone else have a clue what the secret is?
Mine is growing with half the roots above the soil and half below. Right now it looks very silly. 
By the way, dknydiep1, by fail do you mean you left it in there for a looong time and it completely died and didn't come back?


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## amphirion (Nov 13, 2008)

very high lighting. low nitrates---this is a carnivorous plant, it requires low nitrate environments in order to survive. people keep on fertilizing the crap out of it, which leads to it melting. it melts because excessive nitrates end up burning the plant.

if going the emmersed route, submerge the plant with 1 cm of water over it, allow it to evaporate, rinse, rebeat. emmersed is the best route as it will allow the plant to establish itself into the soil without floating up.

here's how my tank looks like after it's all said and done:


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## Clare12345 (Dec 20, 2008)

Ahh! Very very good. No wonder I liked that plant. So with CO2 and less Nitrogen I should be able to grow it better?

Utricularia Grammifolia


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## Danh Vu (Jul 3, 2010)

so excess Nitrogen from ei dosing wouldn't work?


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## amphirion (Nov 13, 2008)

if it is UG alone, yes, excessive nitrates will melt the plant. usually, in a planted aquarium, the nitrates would be absorbed by other plants, but if the plant is by itself, i do not recommend it. in fact, cultivation of most bladderworts in the CP community highly discourage fertilization in normal doses (for regular plants) as it kills them:
http://www.carnivorousplants.org/seedbank/species/Utricularia.htm


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## dknydiep1 (May 21, 2006)

My tank has very high lighting with co2. I might have dosed too much. It would melt away in less than a month. 

This time Im trying to grow it using the dry start method. We'll see if it works this time.


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## dknydiep1 (May 21, 2006)

What is your dosing schedule like amphirion? Tank specs and parameters?


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## amphirion (Nov 13, 2008)

the only type of fertilization that goes on is the CO2 which is a DIY. CO2 shouldnt be responsible for the decline of the plant as it contains no N groups. in fact, CO2 should aid in the growth of your plant. however, i strongly suggest that you establish UG first by emmersing it as it does much better and grows faster partially out of water than being submerged under it. high lighting is beneficial as well. --also when growing emmersed, have shrink wrap over the top of the tank as this plant demands very VERY high humid conditions in order to grow well. 

tank specs are as follows:
2.5 gallon tank
Lighting: 36W 10,000K/6700K (>14hrs---pretty much i turn it on at 8 o clock and leave it on till whenever i decide to go to bed)
i only use CO2, havent dosed with anything else since most of my plants are low maintenance (mini pelia, anubias) the only one that might need iron dosing is the downoi, but that's growing like gangbusters right now- actually turning pinkish green.

havent done any water changes....maybe i should...could be the reason why algae is so rampant in the tank.


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## Clare12345 (Dec 20, 2008)

I saw that that link said there shouldn't be much in the way of fertilizers, but I didn't see where it said nitrates in particular. 

Does anyone else have anything to say about UG who has grown it successfully? List your specs!


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## Cardinal Tetra (Feb 26, 2006)

I dose regularly and my UG doesn't melt. I've grown many beautiful carpets of it with dosing. However, I will say that it does not suffer from any nutrient deficiencies when I forget to dose while the other plants stunt and/or drop their old leaves. Perhaps amphirion might be onto something. Maybe I don't dose excessively enough to melt mine. 

Here is a picture.


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## amphirion (Nov 13, 2008)

@clare: fertilizers may come in different forms, but all of them essentially have the following: nitrates, phosphates, and potassium (N,P,K). most of the nitrates found in fertilizer is Urea. to understand why Urea is detrimental to UG or any carnivorous plant in normal dosing levels, one needs to understand carnivorous plants in general.

Plants such as UG grow in very nutrient poor soils, specifically, soils that are lacking in nitrates. since there are no nitrates to fix from the ground, these plants have adapted mechanisms that aid them to obtain nitrates from another source: insects. nitrates from insects are obtained via the amino acids that make up the body of the insect. 
when concentrated forms of nitrates are given to carnivorous plants (aka fertilizer), it results in burning the leaves because it is so much more concentrated than what the plant is normally used to from obtaining insects. keep in mind that normal nitrate dosing for common aquarium plants is at least 4x more the concentration that carnivorous plants are used to. even when using weak fertilizers such as orchid ferts, carnivorous plant keepers strongly advocate using 1/4th the recommended dose, lest they burn their plants to death (by melting). carnivorous plants in general cannot tolerate nitrogen rich soils---put a venus flytrap into a mix of miracle potting soil, and you will catch my drift within a week.

in the case with Cardinal's tank, lower dosing and having other aquarium plants that are more ready to take up nitrate dosings before the UG gets a wiff of it, prevents it from melting.


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## Clare12345 (Dec 20, 2008)

Soo I should keep UG in sand? I'm using aquasoil. And with not too much Nitrate fertilizer? I use different bottles of different kinds of fertilizers so most of them should be better and I'll mostly cut off the Nitrogen? 
How does it respond to Excel in your experience?
I have no CO2 right now but am in the midst of getting parts for a pressurized CO2 tank. I think this will make a difference. I do have other plants in the tank, but the UG is just not at its best and I want to know why. (aside from the CO2, when I had DIY it didn't look much better).


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## Cardinal Tetra (Feb 26, 2006)

UG does better in finer substrates (died when I tried it in flourite). I am growing it very well in florabase which is from what I've heard similar to aquasoil. It responds excellently to excel. I give it 2x the recommended dose everyday along with DIY CO2. 
As for how much nitrogen it needs I can't answer that question...all plants need nitrogen to grow. It's in their DNA, chloroplasts, etc. Mine grows super fast so it probably is using up quite a bit. I'm pretty sure it comprises at least half of the plant biomass in my tank right now.

@Amphirion. What substrate are you using and how old is it? Some substrates like florabase and aquasoil (huge ammonia spikes at the start) are full of nutrients to begin with so it might just be using those for the time being. BTW your algae is spirogyra. You can kill it by shortening your photoperiod by a couple hours.


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## amphirion (Nov 13, 2008)

@cardinal: the soil i used was used florabase as well. but i've successfully grown in equal parts of peat and sand. i dont know how old it was though, it was handed down to me from a friend. thanks for IDing the algae for me. i'll reduce the photoperiod immediately.


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## Clare12345 (Dec 20, 2008)

Anyone else grow UG successfully? List your specs! Please.


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## Bjielsl (Sep 13, 2011)

Failing at the moment... till I found this thread.... Bringing up an old one.... I am going to stop frets and see what happens.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

I grow UG in all kinds of tanks. My latest is a 2.5gal with really high light, CO2, EI dosing (lots of it, actually), Fluval Shrimp Stratum, Osmocote Plus gelcaps (seems to be what works best for me), 78-82 on the temperature front.

I think the trick is not to try too hard. Start dry, as others above have suggested, in a nutrient-rich substrate or something that's fertilized. Give it 5-6 weeks to really grow in thick and to develop a deep root structure. Once you flood the tank, fertilize the water column, make sure there's sufficient CO2, crank up the lighting and let it roar until you get your first crazy algae bloom. Then ease back until algae isn't an issue and you've found your sweet spot.

Oh - and the tank linked above routinely has nitrates from 80-120PPM. Been going strong for quite a while.


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## 4f1hmi (Apr 22, 2009)

Try putting some daphnia on your new substrate will help. If you don't have live ones, you can use the frozen ones as they seem to resurrect themselves after a while. UG being a carnivorous plant needs a lot of bacteria to thrive. Old substrate fair better than new ones. Just thought I would chip in. Good luck!


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

That makes it a perfect plant for a shrimp tank not needing nitrates but I've seen it grow good in new Stratum too, but the feeding makes perfect sense it would want some kind of protein.


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## Trail_Mix (May 17, 2011)

4f1hmi said:


> Try putting some daphnia on your new substrate will help. If you don't have live ones, you can use the frozen ones as they seem to resurrect themselves after a while. UG being a carnivorous plant needs a lot of bacteria to thrive. Old substrate fair better than new ones. Just thought I would chip in. Good luck!


That's nuts! I didn't know frozen daphnia would resurrect themselves lol. Is there anything other than using a mature substrate that you can do to increase bacteria levels in your tank? If you have a well established tank, and you plant a UG carpet, is the amount of bacteria it will eat minimal compared to the overall bacteria puplation?

Also, do you have to worry about the levels of K and P, or is it mainly just the N that will burn the UG? Cause I was under the impression that high levels of K and P are also bad for CPs, but I don't know if that is the case with UG.


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## VeeSe (Apr 16, 2011)

Trail_Mix said:


> That's nuts! I didn't know frozen daphnia would resurrect themselves lol. Is there anything other than using a mature substrate that you can do to increase bacteria levels in your tank? If you have a well established tank, and you plant a UG carpet, is the amount of bacteria it will eat minimal compared to the overall bacteria puplation?
> 
> Also, do you have to worry about the levels of K and P, or is it mainly just the N that will burn the UG? Cause I was under the impression that high levels of K and P are also bad for CPs, but I don't know if that is the case with UG.


Just FYI you revived a 1.5 year old thread


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## tropicalmackdaddy (Mar 7, 2012)

VeeSe said:


> Just FYI you revived a 1.5 year old thread


Hehe


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## sayurasem (Jun 17, 2011)

On man the last few post crack me up. Good read lol!


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

somewhatshocked said:


> ...
> Oh - and the tank linked above routinely has nitrates from 80-120PPM. Been going strong for quite a while.



Im glad someone used the search function and bumped it.

Im thinking of going UG since my dgh is fully carpeted and want to try a new carpet. But then I heard high nitrates in this thread kill ug.......got me worried till I saw your post. I wanted to ask about what ppm would be condered dangerous? 80ppm+ I think is a good thing, I dont think it gets that high in planted ei dosing tanks. Do they? I only have an oto and sae in my heavy 45.


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## neontetras4me (Sep 5, 2011)

I am going to be starting up a new tank soon and was wanting to put UG in it. I have been growing an emmersed carpet of UG in a 20L for the past year and a half or so and was wondering what would be the best way to get some of that into a 40B? should I start making the water about to the top of the plants in my 20L just so they get some more root strength and then use a putty knife to cut chunks out including their roots and some of the soil they are in and then have them go straight into a sand substrate in the 40B? or should I start them emmersed in the new tank and wait a few weeks and go ahead with going immersed?


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

samee said:


> Im glad someone used the search function and bumped it.
> 
> Im thinking of going UG since my dgh is fully carpeted and want to try a new carpet. But then I heard high nitrates in this thread kill ug.......got me worried till I saw your post. I wanted to ask about what ppm would be condered dangerous? 80ppm+ I think is a good thing, I dont think it gets that high in planted ei dosing tanks. Do they? I only have an oto and sae in my heavy 45.



How long it takes you to fully carpet with DHG? Mine has been a month and so far so good. At a distance, it looks somewhat dense. Looking closer to the tank, they don't seem to be. Yeah, starving your plants with NO3 and up the CO2...a perfect recipe for algae.


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

tetra73 said:


> How long it takes you to fully carpet with DHG? Mine has been a month and so far so good. At a distance, it looks somewhat dense. Looking closer to the tank, they don't seem to be. Yeah, starving your plants with NO3 and up the CO2...a perfect recipe for algae.


It took me a few months, I dont remember when I got the dhg. I just got one strand, one strand!!! from my bros tank and planted it. At that time I didnt expect to keep dgh. But it grew quick and Im astonished at how dense it grew. I expected it to be leggy, like hiways on a map. I did not maintain it at all. Its later on I starting trimming it with scissors.


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

I have it sending out runners in my 10 gallon...high light and co2 and dosed PPS-Pro...how quickly does it spread though? It seems to be staying mainly in its one spot for now, but I hope I can get it to cover a nice chunk of the tank.


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## ThatGuyWithTheFish (Apr 29, 2012)

Lol I have a very lit bit getting by with little light, no co2, and no more active dosing.


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## AoxomoxoA (Apr 22, 2010)

It's too easy to grow emergent. Try it that way.
When growing emergent, do _not_ completely submerge as someone stated above. It won't grow as thick.
If you want a super thick mat make the soil line an inch above the water line & mist daily. It will grow just as dense as anyone else's submerged. Then you can torture it all the ways you want :fish:


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## AnotherHobby (Mar 5, 2012)

I had very good results growing it immersed. Good CO2, dosing EI, aqua soil, and a Ray 2 sitting 14" from the substrate:

*July 9th* (the day it was flooded... only spent 3 days emmersed):










*July 17th:*










*August 1st:*










*Today, Aug 18th.*


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

amphirion said:


> very high lighting. low nitrates---this is a carnivorous plant, it requires low nitrate environments in order to survive. people keep on fertilizing the crap out of it, which leads to it melting. it melts because excessive nitrates end up burning the plant.
> 
> if going the emmersed route, submerge the plant with 1 cm of water over it, allow it to evaporate, rinse, rebeat. emmersed is the best route as it will allow the plant to establish itself into the soil without floating up.


This is patently false. I have high NO3/PO4traces, GH, you name it, plus well fed fish population. I grow the snot out of it. I've sold a lot here on TPT, not emergent, but submersed, my tank journals document the growth and the density of the mats. Unless.....there is a CO2 issue. Then it does do poorly.
It also grows dandy without any sediment ,floating etc. It is an obligate CO2 enrichment plant compared to most any other plant.

Ferts have nothing to do with it.

Low high etc, the plant still grows well.


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## AnotherHobby (Mar 5, 2012)

The very thick UG that's pictured above growing in my tank (and that filled in quite fast fast) was grown with high NO3. I just tested my tank, and my nitrates are over 80. So, I'm with plantbrain on the high nitrate issue.

Also, I found UG to not be very buoyant compared to many other plants, It does float, but it doesn't pop loose on it's own and tends to stay put rather nicely, unless my cory's start rooting around in it. Compared to the HC I keep at work, UG is super easy to keep planted. I found it incredibly easy to have it stay put while growing immersed.


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> This is patently false. I have high NO3/PO4traces, GH, you name it, plus well fed fish population. I grow the snot out of it. I've sold a lot here on TPT, not emergent, but submersed, my tank journals document the growth and the density of the mats. Unless.....there is a CO2 issue. Then it does do poorly.
> It also grows dandy without any sediment ,floating etc. It is an obligate CO2 enrichment plant compared to most any other plant.
> 
> Ferts have nothing to do with it.
> ...


Thanks  I was waiting for your reply to know if it was a true statement or not.


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## KevinE (Aug 10, 2013)

*UG as a carpet plant*

I have a large portion of UG on hand...I'd like to use it as a carpet plant in my 220 gallon tank...What is the best way to get it started as a carpet? Should I anchor it to rocks or driftwood and then allow it to just grow out? Can it be anchored using fishing line like a moss?

Thanks for the help.


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## AnotherHobby (Mar 5, 2012)

KevinE said:


> I have a large portion of UG on hand...I'd like to use it as a carpet plant in my 220 gallon tank...What is the best way to get it started as a carpet? Should I anchor it to rocks or driftwood and then allow it to just grow out? Can it be anchored using fishing line like a moss?
> 
> Thanks for the help.


I got quick growth by tearing it into pencil or smaller round sized plugs, and planting it directly in the substrate. I made a lot of plugs, and had really good luck getting a super thick and lush carpet out if it. Look at page 2 of my journal to see the mat of UG I got and how I initially planted it. It only took about 2 weeks to get rooted and really take off.

I didn't have as much luck keeping it rooted long term, but that was probably more due to my inexperience than the plant itself. I had 4 months of crazy growth until it was like a golf course, and then I couldn't figure out how to keep it from growing over itself. If you want to read about my failure, it starts in my journal at page 14.


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