# MTS substrate(UPDATE: 12/16/10; Starting over, live and learn)



## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

Get a bag of the plainest TOP SOIL you can find. Sift it so you get all the wood and other chucks out.

I did this with my 40 and added some crushed coral to buffer it and I was fine. You'll get algae but keep your tank filled with the fastest of the fast stem plants in it and your cool.


----------



## MrMoneybags (Apr 13, 2010)

Scotts brand topsoil worked...it was like $2.49 @Lowes for a 40-50lb bag

as mentioned, dry and sift it first tho as that will speed up the mineralizing process tho I doubt youll be able to do it for a few months as were going into the winter and youll need heat & sun to power the decomposing bacteria

but since you live in Raleigh

http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=KA-1135
http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=KA-1322
just walk in and ask...


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

I didn't realize you lived in Raleigh  What part of Raleigh are you at? Are those nutrients absolutely necessary? The topsoil would be capped, but would that cause a algae problem still?


----------



## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

look, all you have to do is get some dirt and get it wet and dry it out. repeat that several times. then sift out the stuff that didn't break down. very simple. 

i will add that the first couple of wet/dry cycles that you want to rinse the soil. like a layer of water over the mud. let it settle then dump out the water.

if you sift it first you will loose a lot of what we're after.

you can use just about any type of dirt. just make sure it doesn't have a lot of sand in it. i've used bagged topsiol, dirt from the garden, and dirt out of a forest. it all works. 

as far as i'm concerned, the dolomite/crushed coral is optional(keeps it from getting too acidic). you do want to add some clay though. (helps hold it together)

edit - i still dose my tanks. just thought i should mention that. if done the way in the sticky you probably wouldn't need to.


----------



## MrMoneybags (Apr 13, 2010)

^^no one said its difficult...just time consuming (takes about a month per batch) so I dont understand the attitude/tone of your response...but its a nonissue

I had success with MTS but in the end didnt like it as much as store bought stuff (obviously) and now Im using kitty litter (which I really like...but its too light so my tiger barbs uproot my glosso pretty frequently) but may change that in the future to plain, coarse gravel

I didnt have algae problems...but did have problems with build up of gasses that would erupt periodically from my MTS layer and make my PFS cap look like a mess

...also the smell when I finally replaced the stuff...ugh!

Im in NW Raleigh...near NC State


----------



## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

No tone was intended. I just over thought it the first time around and was trying to keep it simple.


----------



## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

Before this gets ugly is done.back to thread.

Kitty litter? So you said its just to light? Does it give off anything to the plants?


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I see no reason to buy dirt, when you already have lots of it. I agree with oldpunk that it can be as simple as soaking a bucket of ordinary dirt, spreading it out and letting it dry, preferably in the sun, then repeating 2 or 3 more times, until it doesn't have a swamp smell when it is wet. It takes me about a week to do this in the Summer, but it would take longer this time of year.

You can use it as is, or improve it some by adding some dolomite (best) or crushed coral in a very thin layer on the bottom below the MTS. You can improve it a bit more by adding a much thinner layer of potassium chloride (potash or salt substitute) with the dolomite. And, you could add a slight amount of Osmocote along with the dolomite and potash, to add a bit more nutrients, but that is really overkill.

Now, all you need is about a couple of inches of another substrate, as simple as pool filter sand, on top, and you have a fertile substrate.


----------



## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

Hoppy that made it sound simple lol thank you.


----------



## MrMoneybags (Apr 13, 2010)

problemman said:


> Before this gets ugly is done.back to thread.
> 
> Kitty litter? So you said its just to light? Does it give off anything to the plants?


I chose kitty litter for the high ability to retain and hold nutrients (known as cation exchange capacity, or CEC for short)...so it doesnt really give off anything, it just stages the nutrients for the plants (IMO/understanding)

I figured if I put nutrients (Osmocote plus) on the glass bottom, add a thick ~2" layer of kitty litter...any nutrients released (ammonia, urea, potassium, phosphorus etc.) would be adsorbed by the kitty litter and waiting for the plants to take up, so no ammonia spikes and no algae problems to date...still wish I had more plants tho

I was trying to grow some glosso emersed (but that failed) but when I moved it to this [filled] tank...it started growing aggressively after about 2days

It has worked incredibly well except for the uprooting factor (a gravel cap would probably correct this)...if I could keep them away from the plants for 2days I think it would work beautifully...Im just too lazy/busy to fish em out and move them back (this week) aka other more pressing priorities at the moment...


----------



## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

Hmmmm so I think I'm going to try that in my next tank. You think if I gave the plants about 2 weeks to root in it then I would be fine?


----------



## MrMoneybags (Apr 13, 2010)

im only like a month into it myself...but yea, I like it so far

Im sure there are much better substrates or much worse...


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

So it would be okay to use dirt from my forested area behind my house? That dirt is jet black and doesn't have to much debri in it. I could also just go up to my local garden store and they have really nice organic potting soil for like 5$ for a 50lb bag


----------



## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

Organic is okay as well again just clean it of everything but the dirt


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Your local soil will work fine too, and it costs just whatever you want to charge yourself for the labor. Incidentally, I have never sifted my MTS. I just pick out the big pieces, the bits of wood and rocks, as I smooth it out on a black garbage bag to dry, and as I get it back together to go back into the soaking bucket. I probably miss a bit, but it has never caused me a problem. I even used some river silt once that I only did one cycle of mineralizing on. Other than the fact that it made the house smell like a swamp for a few days, it worked very well.

Be careful with cat litter. You need to use the absolute cheapest you can get, or it will contain perfumes, etc. aimed to make it work better as cat litter. Those aren't good in aquariums.


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

thanks hoppy. I may just do the hunt in the woods method. Cheaper and i know that no fertilizers have been there. Nice soil back there aswell.


----------



## defiesexistence (Sep 13, 2010)

An aside: If you harvest soil and leaf litter from the woods, take only a couple pounds from each place. From an aquarist's point of view, it's the only ferts and carbon a woodland is 'dosed', ever. When you remove leaf litter, please spread some back on. It keeps moisture in, the tree benefits from the bacteria colonies in the leaves, and in a few years, that tree will have ferts for its use. It takes years to accumulate litter like that, and if it's removed completely, the trees will take years to recover from that stress. Don't harvest soil near the base of the trunk. There's nothing wrong with harvesting soil, but please do it responsibly :icon_smil

But that soil sounds really awesome for your plants! The darker the soil, the better, and you said it's almost black. That, fishykid, is good soil, and you've got a good eye :thumbsup:


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

Thanks, I'll make sure it's filled back in. There's one area that's kind of swampy, but has extremely black dirt. Would this be a good place to look? It's literally coal black.


----------



## defiesexistence (Sep 13, 2010)

I can't speak on how good it would be for MTS, but I do know swamp soil tends to be fertile, silty, and smelly. In general. It has a boatload of nutrients, but makes for cloudy water, particularly if you disturb it. It might soften water, due to the amount of peat, clay and other organic matter in it. Perhaps if you mixed it with soil from the woods and tried it out in a test tank?


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

That sounds like a good plan. It's not as swampy anymore because we've been having some iffy years for rain. drought after drought, so I'm going to wait until my dad gets home and then go down and take a look  I'll probably mix it with regular dirt just in case. this MTS will be capped with another substrate, more than likely flourite...so cloudy shouldn't be a problem hopefully.


----------



## defiesexistence (Sep 13, 2010)

Hopefully. Are you going to start a build thread, or post results of the test tank thing? I'd be interested in taking a look-see.


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

I really don't have any room to set another tank up. Especially because this MTS would be the bottom layer in my 75G tank. But I may do it over a weekend when it's a bit warmer outside...The 75G thread is started "The beginning of fishykid's 75G" is the thread title. so... yeah.


----------



## defiesexistence (Sep 13, 2010)

Just use a little plastic food container that's pretty clear, stick it in front of an east, west, or south window, add plants and soil, and a topper, and whaha, knowledge gained, possible disaster avoided. I use glass 'fish bowls' for my experimenting. Though bowls are for food.


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

that's true. hopefully my dad gets here soon. UGH I dont think i'll be able to go dig some up tonight. but whatever


----------



## defiesexistence (Sep 13, 2010)

Is that "UGH" like, "AH! THE FISH-RELATED STUFF! CAN'T. GET. TO. IT."

I feel your pain :biggrin:


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

It was getting dark but i scurried around our 3 acre back yard, the best dirt i could find was just behind our fence.

Here it is, with no sifting, just under the leaf litter level, I'm just seeing small amounts of sand... is that okay to have?

HERE IT IS:










I dried it out... so it looks more lightish color i suppose.


----------



## defiesexistence (Sep 13, 2010)

Sure, it's fine. There's a bit of sand/grit in everything. Think of it as broken down rocks. Was this in the wooded part or the swamp? Or is your fence not near either (which has leaf litter by it, so... woods)?

Looks decent to me. Though as you said, unsifted. :thumbsup:


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

This was still in the wooded part, but as you go farther down you get closer to a pretty good sized stream and it seems to get more sandy. I noticed the sand as well, but this shouldn't change water parameters any. 

As far as this goes. There's a good amount of this type of soil. Should i add a slight amount of coral and clay? I can probably get coral at my LFS by just asking him for some


----------



## defiesexistence (Sep 13, 2010)

Gee, I wish I had a stream in my backyard.  The sand will be inert, but will provide decent rooting medium. Great mix.

Coral, _little_ dusting, maybe, if your tap is really really soft water. Clay, maybe. The dirt looks like it has some in it already though. Dirt has high CEC anyhow, so you likely won't need any. But I just learned about CEC last week, so I'll stop babbling and step aside for an expert.


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

That's fine. I jsut learned it recently... well learned more about it. I just dried this out with a hair dryer, just to see if it's worth while. Once dried out, it looks like aqua-soil fine... I have a little 2 gallon acrylic tank and i may go dry some more out tonight, enough to cover the bottom of that and see what it looks like  I like when things seem to go semi right.


----------



## defiesexistence (Sep 13, 2010)

I was wondering how you got it to dry so fast... Agreed. It _is _nice when things happen in logical order.

You'll probably only need a thin layer on the bottom of the 2g. Will you cap it?


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

I have spare flourite from my 10G. That's a good idea! as for lighting... hello old flourescents. I'll update pics later if i can do it tonight. Either that, or i'll use my little desk lamp. (has 5000K bulb in it) YAY!


----------



## defiesexistence (Sep 13, 2010)

Test plants?


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

Java fern, sagitaria subulata, and may put some rotala in there. It works though. should I post the pictures here? or make a journal?


----------



## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

Here and a lotus will love it. Also try cabomba, swords,apongetons, downoi and idk others lol


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

SO, I decided to try and use the plain soil that I found in my back yard. A wooded area. 

I took out the major debri, not that there was much. Just the occasional small root or rock. The first picture is what it looked like before I took the bits and pieces of junk out. 

I did no sifting. Just dried it slightly and sprinkled it into the tank about 3/4" thick.








Next came supplies:








First layer is complete...








Filling, Cherio box to keep flourite from moving








Finished: water is clearer because I put cherio's box in.









Only time will tell, any thoughts


----------



## MrMoneybags (Apr 13, 2010)

If I was copying your design...I would have probably used paper towels instead of cardboard
just think it would be easier for the roots to penetrate when soaked

but yea...keep us updated...looks interesting


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

> If I was copying your design...I would have probably used paper towels instead of cardboard just think it would be easier for the roots to penetrate when soaked


I didn't leave the cardboard in there? It was just so the water didn't move the substrate around. The plants were really easy to push into the substrate.


----------



## celine (Nov 19, 2010)

that looks great! i might of missed it, what kinda fish are you putting in there?



fishykid1 said:


> I can probably get coral at my LFS by just asking him for some


where is this LFS in north raleigh?!?!?!? i neeeeed to know!!!! lol


----------



## MrMoneybags (Apr 13, 2010)

me too!

Ive only seen a few...but they werent too good...Petsmart (Cary and Brier Creek) were MUCH better...the best LFS I found was in Durham...but thats a 40min drive for me


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

> Ive only seen a few...but they werent too good...Petsmart (Cary and Brier Creek) were MUCH better...the best LFS I found was in Durham...but thats a 40min drive for me


It's a saltie store.


----------



## MrMoneybags (Apr 13, 2010)

near the Best Buy on Capital Blvd?

...keep meaning to go there some day


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

nope, Fish World closed  but there's another store in garner... actually 2. Carolina pet supply (not a ton of fish stuff) and down under salt water right were the lowes is on 401 and hwy. 70...


----------



## defiesexistence (Sep 13, 2010)

Question: Where's the Rotala? 

That water is crazy clear. Cheerio box for me too, on my rebuild :thumbsup:


----------



## MrMoneybags (Apr 13, 2010)

fishykid1 said:


> nope, Fish World closed  but there's another store in garner... actually 2. Carolina pet supply (not a ton of fish stuff) and down under salt water right were the lowes is on 401 and hwy. 70...


well damn...

and Ive been to Carolina pet supply...thought the petsmart @70 and timber dr was better/cleaner..tho I HATE the one waaaaaay down in white oak (like another 10mins south on 70)

gotta keep an eye out for the other place...never noticed it before


----------



## hairyspheers (Sep 18, 2005)

Is kitty litter a good substitute for clay?


----------



## MrMoneybags (Apr 13, 2010)

good? depends on what youre using it for
as an iron substitute...yes in theory...as a "binding" agent....probably not


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

hairy, I've heard it was good as a lower layer, as long as it doesn't have the scents perfumes that make cat's pi** smell good. Look on the first or second page of this thread, hoppy mentions it. I've also seen a few threads with it in there. Check the seach button at the top of this forum, along the blue bar.

moneybags, Its not a big store but they do carry only salt water stuff. It's right next to the lowe's there. the store name is shown as "down under".


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

[STRIKE] No more outside topsoil from yard. It looks good, but too much sand for my comfort[/STRIKE]

Here's the Topsoil bag, went with Scotts Premium topsoil. 









Picture of the back label, all organics, no fertilizers or additives.









Here's the bucket with the Top soil wetted down to clumping stage.









Soil in-hand.








Closed bag, with ziplock tie. 









This is going to stay inside my room. Hopefully it will heat up as much does and decompose quicker. Every 2 days I'll open bags and turn over the soil. After one week, I'll put it on several plastic trash bags to dry out. Then wet it down again and repeat. 

Will update again soon. Hopefully it's ready by Jan 1.

Tell me what you think, thanks!


----------



## Jim Miller (Dec 24, 2002)

Needs oxygen or will it will "get ripe". So closing up the bag probably isn't a good idea.

Jim


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

I'm only closing the bag for the first week or so. I'll be checking in on it every day probably. Thanks for the heads up!

Would poking holes in the bag help? My parents aren't too keen about me keeping this inside, but it gets too cold to mineralize it medium speed during winter.


----------



## Centromochlus (May 19, 2008)

Interesting concept. I'm curious to see how it will turn out. Definitely a cheaper option than aquasoil.

Do your parents know that you have decomposing soil in your bedroom? :flick:


----------



## Jim Miller (Dec 24, 2002)

How about the garage or basement? Both of those would be better choices. The composting will keep it warmer than you think. Ever see a pile of mulch steaming?

If it isn't spread out then turning it every other day would help it along. The bacteria need air to do their work.

Composters put their stuff in barrels then roll them to make the turning easier.

Good luck. I'll being doing something similar when I get my tank in January. brrr

Jim


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

AzFishKid said:


> Do your parents know that you have decomposing soil in your bedroom? :flick:


Yes and no...  My dad knows I have it, just not where. It's 2 5 gallon buckets half full in my closet  Which they can't even get too because my room is a disaster right now.


Jim, as far as the garage or basement. We don't have a basement, and the garage is filled with my dad's car and all his tools... It's a no go on those. It'll just have to stay in my closet! mwhaha, they'll never know.


----------



## Jim Miller (Dec 24, 2002)

Mom's always know...

Jim (who never got away with much)


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

I don't either, but my mom can't really get to my closet because I put 2 boxes with all my old books and some toys infront of it, and I doubt she'll move it to check. The soil is already somewhat warm. I have the SAT this morning though, so I'll check again later! UGH, I hate tests.


----------



## Jim Miller (Dec 24, 2002)

Good luck on the tests!

Try to sneak the soil outside before you open it in case it has developed H2S.

jim


----------



## defiesexistence (Sep 13, 2010)

Man, I missed the latest developments! You... are a secret soil stasher. I hope all goes well! Maybe you should throw some red wigglers in there to speed up the process? But how would you get them out?

Good luck on the SAT.


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I think I would just use that soil as is, accepting that it will make the room stink for a couple of weeks. You are very likely to be making the room stink anyway. The plants will do fine either way.

On another thread Tom Barr suggested a third way: Start the tank with the soil as is, but use the "dry start" method. Just put the soil and whatever you want to cap it with, pool filter sand, for example, in the tank. Add just enough water to bring the water line up to just below the top of the substrate. Then plant HC or HM, or possibly hairgrass. Cover the tank with plastic wrap, with just a small opening. Add the lighting. And, wait for the plants to grow emersed. After about 3 weeks or so you should have a good carpet of plants, and the topsoil will be mineralized. Add the water to the tank, plant any other plants you want, and you are all set.


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

Hoppy said:


> I think I would just use that soil as is, accepting that it will make the room stink for a couple of weeks. You are very likely to be making the room stink anyway. The plants will do fine either way.
> 
> On another thread Tom Barr suggested a third way: Start the tank with the soil as is, but use the "dry start" method. Just put the soil and whatever you want to cap it with, pool filter sand, for example, in the tank. Add just enough water to bring the water line up to just below the top of the substrate. Then plant HC or HM, or possibly hairgrass. Cover the tank with plastic wrap, with just a small opening. Add the lighting. And, wait for the plants to grow emersed. After about 3 weeks or so you should have a good carpet of plants, and the topsoil will be mineralized. Add the water to the tank, plant any other plants you want, and you are all set.


I'm not just doing a MTS substrate, it's going to be toped with flourite black sand. Would DSM still work, I don't think I'm going to do HC just yet...more probable to be glosso


defiesexistence said:


> Good luck on the SAT.


The SAT went well, I was glad with the writing topic as we have been studying almost the exact question as our topic!


----------



## OoglyBoogly (Oct 19, 2010)

Jim Miller said:


> Composters put their stuff in barrels then roll them to make the turning easier.
> 
> 
> Jim


I once started a build of a compost tumbler (idea came from instructables.com) and I used a stainless steel washing machine drum that we were throwing out b/c we just got a warranty replacement on the old one... I wound up never ifnishing it b/c I couldn't find an inexpensive worm gearbox at the time so that I could build and hookup a helix windmill so that it would tumble on its own...

I'm so sad that I never got to finish it 










Link to a thread I posted about it:

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/junk/msg061546337117.html


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

Nice rig, I think I'll stick with my buckets. It should work out faster inside than outside when the temps are in the 30s and 40s anyways. It's a nice toasty 75 degrees in my house


----------



## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

Its going to be nice and smelly soon too lol


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

Not that worried about it. My room already smells like aquariums. Nothing a little fabreeze can't handle


----------



## Jim Miller (Dec 24, 2002)

Bottled up swamps often produce hydrogen sulfide...aka rotten egg smell.

Probably a lot worse than your sneakers.

jim


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

Yes! I opened the bags up and added some more aquarium water. Should it be almost covered with water? I left one somewhat dryer, but still mushy and the other is very wet.


----------



## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

Should be fine....


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

It seems to be getting warmer than before. Maybe it's starting to decay, goodies :thumbsup:


----------



## defiesexistence (Sep 13, 2010)

fishykid1 said:


> Not that worried about it. My room already smells like aquariums. Nothing a little fabreeze can't handle


Gah, we have to spray that toxic waste inside costume heads at work. Rotting dirt will produce a better, rich earthy smell. Leave the air fresheners alone :red_mouth

If you have one of those temperature sticker things, or a thermometer, you could put them in the buckets and monitor the temperature. It might be interesting to find out, to see if the mineralization process produces more heat than the room's temperature. And that way, if the temperature goes down over time, you can tell when it's almost done?


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

It's weird, I thought it was warming up. But not it seems like room temperature. Am I doing something wrong? The buckets are really really wet. Don't know if that's too much water?


----------



## OoglyBoogly (Oct 19, 2010)

I wouldn't expect topsoil to warm up too much in your bucket. You need huge piles of compost or atleast something bigger than a bucket to really see the effects of of heat being generated from a compost bin (a 30g+ trash can or bin would work for creating a noticeable amount of heat).

I'm not sure how mineralization differs from "composting" but I do have some general idea that the topsoil is usually vegetable(leaf litter etc)/animal/bug matter that has already been put through a mashup of biological processes (composting) such as fungus breaking down the dead leaves, bacteria eating the fungus and vegetable matter, worms eating the fungus and bacteria and then everything pooping out that "black gold" that is the dark earthy smelling topsoil. All of those processes create heat and require oxygen and create a medly of pungent smells. If this takes place in a relatively large pile (bigger than a bucket) a noticeable amount of heat will be generated. I've read about (forgot which book it was in) where a guy basically built a large containment unit of sorts that he had lines with tubing. He did his composting in the bin and ran cold water through the sealed tubing and the heat from the compost heated the water up to scolding hot temperatures. Anyways, this immense heat has a lot of benefits such killing off unwanted seeds and sanitizing the soil of any plant pathogens that might be in the vegetable matter being put into your compost. I made compost in the late winter/early spring when the weather was in the 50s and inside my rubbermaid bin was temps around 94F. Definitely not enough to sanitize the compost of any potential pathogens which could infect the plants that the compost is being used for... but it does the job of turning waste back into usable soil.

The white stuff is the fungus. I inoculated the compost with a medley of endo/ectomycorrhizal spores from fungi.com



















I don't think this same process happens a 2nd time while employing the methods described for turning topsoil into MTS. So I wouldn't worry about it not heating up a great deal. From what I've been reading, people usually make MTS during the spring/summer/early fall when they have the power of the sun and warm weather which leads me to believe that the majority of the reactions needed to make MTS are endothermic rather than exothermic. Maybe people just don't like having to deal with an icey brick of topsoil and cold weather. Maybe it's both! Ehh that's my 2 cents.


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

Thanks oogly. I wish it was warmer. But we've been having a insanely cold winter so far. It's already snowed twice and it's only December. For NC that's ridiculous. It's not that much warmer. I just did a thermometer and it's about 4 degrees warmer than the actual room temp, so there has to be something going on...I'll keep updating. But I believe with the 75G i'm planning out, i'll do DSM with it. Which according to Tom Barr's thread can be done safely.


----------



## OoglyBoogly (Oct 19, 2010)

fishykid1 said:


> Thanks oogly. I wish it was warmer. But we've been having a insanely cold winter so far. It's already snowed twice and it's only December. For NC that's ridiculous. It's not that much warmer. I just did a thermometer and it's about 4 degrees warmer than the actual room temp, so there has to be something going on...I'll keep updating. But I believe with the 75G i'm planning out, i'll do DSM with it. Which according to Tom Barr's thread can be done safely.


Yeeuupp np... I plan on also using the DSM on my 75g. I just have to build a table first XD


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

OoglyBoogly said:


> Yeeuupp np... I plan on also using the DSM on my 75g. I just have to build a table first XD


Very cool, I'll upload my basic design i did using sketchup under my 75G thread. It's in my signature and will be the last post today.


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

UPDATE:

Just turned the soil over in the 5 Gallon buckets for the first time in..4 days. 

Temp is staying steady. at about 74 degrees (house is at 70

I haven't added anymore aquarium water to it, will do that tomorrow.

Smell not staying steady, definitely some decomposition going on. as I was turning it over, the stench of rotting stuff hit me in the face. It's fine as long as it's submerged. But when I turned it over, OMG was it a tasty smell...
It seems to also be breaking up into smaller pieces than when I first started out with. So hopefully it'll be fine until after christmas


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

PHEEEEWWWWWWW that stuff is starting to STINK! Good lord, my hand still smells like it, yet submerged underwater with about 1/4" over top, it doesn't smell until I turn it over. Tomorrow I'm going to go to walmart and buy a cheap towel or something to hopefully assist in drying it out some. Then wet the soil, once again. 

T-minus...12 days until Christmas. I'm stoked! This may actually work, and hopefully I get the tank/other stuff from family


----------



## Jim Miller (Dec 24, 2002)

H2S is what you get when you don't let the bacteria have proper oxygen to do their work.

jim


----------



## Jim Miller (Dec 24, 2002)

Consider this: http://www.safetydirectory.com/hazardous_substances/hydrogen_sulfide/fact_sheet.htm

Might want to move that mess somewhere other than bedroom closet.

Jim


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

It's not a rotten egg smell, it just merely smells like compost. It just stinks. There's protein build-up on the surface. and everything's coming along. I could move it to the garage.


EDIT: very distinct smell. It smells like manure, kind of. But it doesn't have manure in it. By the back ingredients, it's all organic. And doesn't have manure listed as an ingredient. Is this wrong?


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

So after much debate with myself, I'm deciding to trash that last batch. I obviously did something wrong. It smelled like cow manure and was starting to get worse. 

So onto try #2. It only cost me 2 bucks for the 40lb. topsoil, so why waste anymore time. 

I had some left over from the old bag, so I threw that into a 5 gallon bucket and submerged/churned it. After 15 minutes of letting it sit i scooped the stuff off the surface. Under that was a few inches of water then another layer of particles.

Here's what my initial looked like after wetting and drying this batch once. This is also after I skimmed off the really big stuff. That picture is taken with super macro and about 2 inches away from the dirt.


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

Dry dirt Dry. 2 250W heat lamps about 12" and it's inclosed with aluminum foil. The soil level is at 100 degrees which shouldn't be too hot for the bacteria. It's giving off a wonderful smell too, no joke. Very earthy. 
My first small batch is looking very good. May only need to be wet and dry 1 or 2 more times.

Anyone still following this thread?


----------



## defiesexistence (Sep 13, 2010)

Sure am (not to give off creeper vibes :hihi. Considering it for my rebuild, maybe. The earthy smell is always a nice smell. Sorry to see that the last batch didn't work! But the first small batch is doing good, and that's great to see. Perhaps use multiple small batches instead of a lesser amount of huge batches?

What kind of buckets are you using? Maybe something with a larger surface area would help the bacteria breathe for the mineralizing process.


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

Actually, not using the buckets. I'll take some pictures. "picture worth a 1000 words"
I may do the multiple small batches, since I have at least a month until this tank gets set up.


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I think you may be making the mistake of keeping air away from the drying soil. When you do that you get anaerobic decomposition, which results in noxious gases. The goal is to dry the soil so it gets plenty of oxygen, since you need to oxidize the organics. It's like making compost, if you do it without air, it smells terrible, but with air it smells good.


----------



## Centromochlus (May 19, 2008)

Sorry to hear that your last batch didn't work out as you had planned. 

Oh well, like you said-- live and learn!


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

Hoppy said:


> I think you may be making the mistake of keeping air away from the drying soil. When you do that you get anaerobic decomposition, which results in noxious gases. The goal is to dry the soil so it gets plenty of oxygen, since you need to oxidize the organics. It's like making compost, if you do it without air, it smells terrible, but with air it smells good.



Thanks for the help hoppy. This batch has air and plenty of it. Just turned the heat lamp off. Just for a test, i put a plastic lid and up comes the moisture. 

Pictures of what I'm doing now...
It's in a 24"X 18" bin about 1.5 inches deep, maybe 2.








Too keep the heat in and not have to use the lamp as long...condensation on the green plastic tells me it's working 









Don't mind the jerry rigged stuff, it's kind of messy looking. And I can't lie, it is. But hey, it works.


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

As many people suggest adding clay and some crushed coral to the MTS substrate, I went to my trusty art teacher to see if I could steal a few pounds of his red sculpting clay. His answer, have as much as you want. ->>> SCORE! 

Also went to a LFS today which is taking down some of their saltwater tanks, and I saw that they had crushed coral sitting in buckets, and that's another score. I can have as much as I want of that as well. 

Too bad the 75G this stuff is going into isn't free... UGH


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Make sure the clay you get is really clay and not a mix of plastics, other polymers, and clay. Many of the clays used for artwork contain stuff to make it better suited for that use, but not suited for use in a substrate.


----------



## Jim Miller (Dec 24, 2002)

If it says "not for kiln use" then it's the wrong stuff. Look for terracotta. I found terracotta powder at a pottery supply place that caters to local art students in Baltimore.

Jim


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

Jim Miller said:


> If it says "not for kiln use" then it's the wrong stuff. Look for terracotta. I found terracotta powder at a pottery supply place that caters to local art students in Baltimore.
> 
> Jim





Hoppy said:


> Make sure the clay you get is really clay and not a mix of plastics, other polymers, and clay. Many of the clays used for artwork contain stuff to make it better suited for that use, but not suited for use in a substrate.



It's definitely for firing purposes  I have his Art 3 class this semester, so I can make sure that I get some fresh stuff from him. Just gotta do a little talking. Thanks hoppy and jim for your help


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

Hey everyone, this is still the second attempt at using MTS. I've dried it out compeltely and realized there's still a lot of chunks of bark, more bark than dirt. So I am also going into my back yard and pulling some dirt off the wooded area. Very nice dirt.

Also, is dolomitic limestone okay to use for Dolomite? It's not a powder, but rather small pellets. 
It has Calcium carbonate, magnesium carbonate, calcium oxide, magnesium oxide as ingredients, and is for lawns. It's professional grade stuff, as my old neighbor is a lawn care specialist and gives us stuff for our lawn.


----------



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

bumparoo! anyone know if dolomitic limestone is okay?


----------

