# Can't get rid of Black Beard Algae



## enb141 (May 14, 2018)

To me, a Siamese algae eater was the solution for that algae, if that's your only algae, then get 3 of them, they will eat that nasty algae.


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## Foxy_ZA (12 mo ago)

They get big and they don't fix the root cause. Thanks for the advice


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## enb141 (May 14, 2018)

You will need algae eaters even if you "fix" the root cause, fixing the root cause will only make to appear very very less, AFAIK, but since you already have it, is very unlikely to disappear by itself.

What you can check then is your water parameters.

GH, KH, Nitrates, Phosphates just before you do your water change.

pH what's your maximum and minimum, for maximum take some water from your tank and put it somewhere (bowl or cup) and wait 48 hours and check its pH using a pH probe. Then check your lowest pH in your tank at your mid cycle of your CO2 regime and compare the difference. You should have 1 point or 1.2 points, for example if your water pH after 48 hours is 7.5, then your pH in your tank should be 6.5.


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

How much bba are we talking about here? What is it growing on? A full tank shot would help.

I had a small issue with it at some point, but it went away. I spot treated a few larger patches on my hardscape with hydrogen peroxide (not hydrochloric acid) and trimmed off any old leaves where it was growing, but I think the real difference came when I removed my driftwood. I think it was just leaching too many organics, but I don't really know. I never had a lot and it seemed to grow slowly. But this is in a low tech tank; I think it can be more problematic in higher energy tanks


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## Foxy_ZA (12 mo ago)

The ph goes down to 6.5ish when the co2 is on. I don't have a gh test and I have 4DKH. I agree that I will need algea eaters, what do you think about nerite snails.



ElleDee said:


> How much bba are we talking about here? What is it growing on? A full tank shot would help.
> 
> I had a small issue with it at some point, but it went away. I spot treated a few larger patches on my hardscape with hydrogen peroxide (not hydrochloric acid) and trimmed off any old leaves where it was growing, but I think the real difference came when I removed my driftwood. I think it was just leaching too many organics, but I don't really know. I never had a lot and it seemed to grow slowly. But this is in a low tech tank; I think it can be more problematic in higher energy tanks


It's all over the tank. It's growing on the filter, plants, wood, rock, substate


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Critters/fish will never solve a large algae problem. BBA is pretty much always too much organics (feeding/waste, dying plant leaves) with too much light for a given setup. The best solution is to keep the water as clean as possible and at the same time increasing plant uptake. Both of these remove organics from the system.


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## Foxy_ZA (12 mo ago)

I


Asteroid said:


> Critters/fish will never solve a large algae problem. BBA is pretty much always too much organics (feeding/waste, dying plant leaves) with too much light for a given setup. The best solution is to keep the water as clean as possible and at the same time increasing plant uptake. Both of these remove organics from the system.


How would you suggest increasing the uptake of the plants


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Foxy_ZA said:


> I
> 
> How would you suggest increasing the uptake of the plants


Make sure they are have everything to grow quickly. Maximize co2, lighting, ferts. You state 2.3 bps, that doesn't sound like alot for your size tank. What is your ph difference between degassed and gassed, do you use a drop checker? Do you know what PAR your light is. You can also add more easy fast growing plants. Doing all these things and increasing water changes, reducing waste is what gets rid of BBA.


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## BluCardi (Dec 29, 2021)

Stable CO2 has always been the way I treat BBA. I'd lower the bubble count to 1BPS and check that the CO2 is consistent at that bubble rate first and foremost.


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## Foxy_ZA (12 mo ago)

Asteroid said:


> Make sure they are have everything to grow quickly. Maximize co2, lighting, ferts. You state 2.3 bps, that doesn't sound like alot for your size tank. What is your ph difference between degassed and gassed, do you use a drop checker? Do you know what PAR your light is. You can also add more easy fast growing plants. Doing all these things and increasing water changes, reducing waste is what gets rid of BBA.


Ph is 7 with co2 off and 6.5 with co2 on. I have a drop checker it's lime green. The light doesn't state the PAR but I read its about 220



BluCardi said:


> Stable CO2 has always been the way I treat BBA. I'd lower the bubble count to 1BPS and check that the CO2 is consistent at that bubble rate first and foremost.


Is lowering the bps just to see if the regulator is working correctly or is it just to lower the levels in general


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Foxy_ZA said:


> Ph is 7 with co2 off and 6.5 with co2 on. I have a drop checker it's lime green. The light doesn't state the PAR but I read its about 220


If that reading is accurate that's far too low. Should be around 1.0 drop or more if fish OK. Do any of your plants "pearl" some of the plants you have will "pearl" by releasing O2 bubbles from their leaves. Its not necessary, but indicator that plants are photosynthesizing at a fast rate. You need to find out what your light is putting out at the substrate 220 would be too much. 

Don't do one thing, do everything, bigger water changes, less feeding, remove dying/damaged leaves on a regular basis and increase plant uptake. Hit it from both sides that is the way you get rid of BBA. Honestly it's not even debatable at this point.


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## Foxy_ZA (12 mo ago)

Asteroid said:


> If that reading is accurate that's far too low. Should be around 1.0 drop or more if fish OK. Do any of your plants "pearl" some of the plants you have will "pearl" by releasing O2 bubbles from their leaves. Its not necessary, but indicator that plants are photosynthesizing at a fast rate. You need to find out what your light is putting out at the substrate 220 would be too much.
> 
> Don't do one thing, do everything, bigger water changes, less feeding, remove dying/damaged leaves on a regular basis and increase plant uptake. Hit it from both sides that is the way you get rid of BBA. Honestly it's not even debatable at this point.


They don't pearl unfortunately, I'll try to do what you say and update you on the results


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

@Asteroid would you recommend purigen for removing organics?


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## fredw3533 (12 mo ago)

Another chemical treatment is to spray the BBA-infested plant or decor with 3% hydrogen peroxide outside of water, let it sit for 5 minutes, rinse off the chemical, and put the item back in the aquarium.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

ElleDee said:


> @Asteroid would you recommend purigen for removing organics?


Yes, that or carbon. Everytime I start up a tank I use carbon for the first two months. It's just another layer of organic removal in addition to water changes, especially when the tank is new and plants haven't really kicked in.


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## enb141 (May 14, 2018)

Foxy_ZA said:


> The ph goes down to 6.5ish when the co2 is on. I don't have a gh test and I have 4DKH. I agree that I will need algea eaters, what do you think about nerite snails.


Nerite Snails don't seem to eat it, as I said, the only creature that seems to eat it is the SAE.

About your degassed water, how many days/hours did you let it to degas?


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## typically (Dec 29, 2006)

Asteroid said:


> Make sure they are have everything to grow quickly. Maximize co2, lighting, ferts. You state 2.3 bps, that doesn't sound like alot for your size tank. What is your ph difference between degassed and gassed, do you use a drop checker? Do you know what PAR your light is. You can also add more easy fast growing plants. Doing all these things and increasing water changes, reducing waste is what gets rid of BBA.


This. 

I find BBA creeps in when my filter is in need of service and or I'm feeding too much.


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## BluCardi (Dec 29, 2021)

Foxy_ZA said:


> Is lowering the bps just to see if the regulator is working correctly or is it just to lower the levels in general


The last time I tried to get rid of BBA it lingered because the working pressure of my cylinder was constantly lowering. I changed the regulator to one that didn't adjust pressure, got the bubble rate stable and within two weeks got rid of the algae.


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## 71percent (Mar 6, 2017)

Try using Flourish Excel. Use a syringe to apply directly to impacted area underwater. Pace yourself so as not to overload your system. Monitor the area to see results over a few days. Worked for me. Good luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Joe M (12 mo ago)

71percent said:


> Try using Flourish Excel. Use a syringe to apply directly to impacted area underwater. Pace yourself so as not to overload your system. Monitor the area to see results over a few days. Worked for me. Good luck!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've gotten similar results using 3% Hydrogen Peroxide, and save the expensive Excel for fertilizing my low tech tank. I generally limit the peroxide to 1 mg per gallon, although at times slightly higher with no ill effects on fauna/flora. Worked great with a recent bout of Blue Green Algae too! NOTE: it is critical to shut down the filter before applying the peroxide in order to protect the Beneficial Bacteria in your filter. Then, as all of the fizzing on the BBA or BGA dies down, the peroxide has converted to oxygen and water. I wait about a 1/2 hour before turning the filter back on. Kinda reminds me of that very old Alka Seltzer commercial song "plop plop, fizz fizz, oh what a relief it is". lol


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## Profector (Oct 7, 2010)

A 20-minute potassium permanganate bath will kill algae on plants. You could dose the whole tank with plants and fish in and neutralize with peroxide, but it would disrupt the nitrogen cycle. Also, laterite substrate is rich in iron. Some people believe, other than light, iron is the most significant factor in controlling algae growth.


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## Joe M (12 mo ago)

Profector said:


> A 20-minute potassium permanganate bath will kill algae on plants. You could dose the whole tank with plants and fish in and neutralize with peroxide, but it would disrupt the nitrogen cycle. Also, laterite substrate is rich in iron. Some people believe, other than light, iron is the most significant factor in controlling algae growth.
> [/QUOTE
> 
> I would never dose the whole tank with peroxide. That would be like eating a whole bottle of aspirin for the concentration to be effective. lol I was talking about spot treating, using a syringe, with the filter off. Abslolutely no effect on the nitrogen cycle, as long as you wait for the peroxide to break down into oxygen + water before you turn the filter back on. I limit my spot dosing to 1 mg/gallon per application and turn filter back on after 1/2 an hour (more than enough time for peroxide to have transformed into harmless Oxygen + water). Have sometimes done it daily until the problem is cleared up. Never had the nitrogen cycle disrupted using this time-tested method.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

If you have BBA your tank has problems.

You have some good advice from @Asteroid in this thread.

It's almost always related to organics and poor maintenance. Also too much light in relation to the type/amount of plants and many times too much flow.

And although some suggest adding critters to clean it up, that is poor method. A well run tank does not need any algae eaters. I don't keep a single one in my tank. And many times too many just adds to the problem creating more waste. Common cleaning crews like Bristlenose Pleco's add more organics and can make the situation worse.


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## Profector (Oct 7, 2010)

I was thinking more about dosing with potassium permanganate(PP) and naturalizing it with peroxide. In an attempt to kill everything on the plant before putting it into the tank, some people will give plants a 15-20 minute bath in PP. Other people use a PP bath/drip to treat fish for external infections. Still, other people will dose their entire tank with PP when raising fry to cut down on the number of deaths. When they treat the whole tank they use hydrogen peroxide to neutralize the remaining PP. PP is an oxidizer used in organic chemistry.



Greggz said:


> If you have BBA your tank has problems.
> 
> You have some good advice from @Asteroid in this thread.
> 
> ...


 I am a firm believer in keeping some types of algae eaters in planted tanks. However, I agree they are not for keeping hair algae or BBA under control. Some snails will naturally increase the amount of the biological activity in the substrate by borrowing and increasing the amount of oxygen available. More biological activity means more natural co2. Some will clean the glass and break down organics meaning less maintenance. Otto's look good when they are shoaling and they clear the diatoms of plant leaves. Shrimp breakdown leftover food. They have their place, IMO.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Profector said:


> I am a firm believer in keeping some types of algae eaters in planted tanks. However, I agree they are not for keeping hair algae or BBA under control. Some snails will naturally increase the amount of the biological activity in the substrate by borrowing and increasing the amount of oxygen available. More biological activity means more natural co2. Some will clean the glass and break down organics meaning less maintenance. Otto's look good when they are shoaling and they clear the diatoms of plant leaves. Shrimp breakdown leftover food. They have their place, IMO.


I still say get them if you want them and like keeping them. If you NEED them you have other things to worry about.

But now you got me curious. Could you explain how snails burrowing creates more biological activity? And what is biological activity? And how does that create more oxygen? And how does that lead to more natural CO2?


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Profector said:


> ...Some snails will naturally increase the amount of the biological activity in the substrate by borrowing and increasing the amount of oxygen available. More biological activity means more natural co2.


If your referring to them moving/consuming organic matter around sort of like composting you are talking about a minuscule amount that will have no real effect on anything. If that was the case people would load up on MTS (Malaysian trumpet snails_) _because that's what they do. They borrow through the substrate all day. Also if you had enough snails to even put a dent in co2, you have one seriously dirty tank. 



Profector said:


> I was thinking more about dosing with potassium permanganate(PP) and naturalizing it with peroxide. In an attempt to kill everything on the plant before putting it into the tank...


Kinda pointless IMO because even tissue culture plants will get algae if the conditions in the tank are right for it. Algae spores are all around, nothing has to be brought in from a purchase to get algae going. On the flip side you could introduce an algae infected plant or rock/wood and if the tank is well balanced through maintenance, uptake etc the algae will not be able to compete and will eventually disappear. That's why this whole cycle of dosing peroxide / Glut is really just a waste. Infected leaves are already damaged and the glut, etc weakens them more. Much better to just trim off the leaves and make changes to the setup so you don't have to rely on nuking the tank. You want new healthy leaves not salvaging damaged ones.


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## Profector (Oct 7, 2010)

Greggz said:


> I still say get them if you want them and like keeping them. If you NEED them you have other things to worry about.
> 
> But now you got me curious. Could you explain how snails burrowing creates more biological activity? And what is biological activity? And how does that create more oxygen? And how does that lead to more natural CO2?


Sure. I'm sure some of the info you'll already know but I'm to add so I can bring the topic full circle. 

By biological activity, I'm referring to bacteria and other organisms feeding and reproducing, and their respiration. 

As you move deeper in the substrate there is less oxygen. If your substrate is too deep it becomes completely anaerobic(without oxygen) towards the bottom. Bacteria that live in anaerobic conditions consume nitrate and give off byproducts like hydrogen sulfide that in large enough amounts could kill everything in your tank..True anaerobic conditions don't usually exist in freshwater tanks because we don't keep six-plus inches of substrate in the tank. Regardless, the amount of oxygen is normally lower in the substrate. That is because the bacteria that live there need oxygen to live and consume it just like we do. And just like us, during respiration give off co2. As time passes substrates settle and become more compact, especially finer substrates, further reducing the amount of available oxygen. When snails, like trumpet snails, borrow through the substrate they loosen it and allow more oxygen in. Their mulm also becomes a source of food for the bacteria. Similar to earthworms in a garden. 

Higher amounts of oxygen in the substrate mean more good bacteria can live there. More good bacteria means more co2. 

Hope I brought that full circle.

Not saying trumpet snails are for everyone. They reproduce quickly. They mostly only come out of the substrate at night. Some people can be freaked out by them because they only see a couple in their tank during the day. Then one morning, they're there when the lights flip on and see hundreds of snails hanging off the glass. The first time I saw it, not going to lie, creeped me out little.



Asteroid said:


> ... if you had enough snails to even put a dent in co2, you have one seriously dirty tank.



Yep, I have a tank with dirty substrate. Very dirty, since soil is more than half of the substrate in that tanks. When the lights are off they, the bacteria, not the snails can get the co2 up to 10-15+ ppm. Having a dirty substrate isn't analogous to dirty plants, dirty glass, or dirty water.



Asteroid said:


> Kinda pointless IMO....


I agree. I was just throwing it out there as an option. In most cases fixing the root cause is the best solution.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Profector said:


> More good bacteria means more co2.


Interesting explanation and belief.

One last question. How does more good bacteria mean more CO2??

There is some CO2 in every tank when at equilibrium with the atmosphere. Generally around 3 to 4 ppm. Are you suggesting that having snails and the whole process as you described it increases CO2 levels in the tank? If so, to what level? Something meaningful? Have you tested this in any way? If so, how?


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Profector said:


> Yep, I have a tank with dirty substrate. Very dirty, since soil is more than half of the substrate in that tanks. When the lights are off they, the bacteria, not the snails can get the co2 up to 10-15+ ppm. Having a dirty substrate isn't analogous to dirty plants, dirty glass, or dirty water.


Ok so this is where you have to take off your scientist cap and put on your hobbyist one. What does this tank look like where the increased co2 was produced via the underground snail army? Any pics? We can talk about all kinds of biological processes etc, but at the end of the day, it's about what it does for your tank and is it applicable to producing a aesthetically pleasing setup. Actually the dirtier a tank is the more limiting it will be in terms of light, stocking, plant species, etc. Think Walstad, those tanks are "dirty" since they try to be self-sustaining, but if you don't stock them full with easy to grow plants that do well in dimmer light the whole system falls apart, that's why you generally see only less demanding species in such a setup with very limited livestock.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Profector said:


> Yep, I have a tank with dirty substrate. Very dirty, since soil is more than half of the substrate in that tanks. When the lights are off they, the bacteria, not the snails can get the co2 up to 10-15+ ppm. Having a dirty substrate isn't analogous to dirty plants, dirty glass, or dirty water.


I agree with @Asteroid above about this.

A dirty substrate does mean a dirty tank. And in general means more organics, poorer plant growth, and more algae. And certain more difficult plants absolutely won't tolerate it. A clean substrate is all part of keeping uber clean conditions which is one of the keys to a successful planted tank.

I've learned that in my own tank. And recently in a big way I will write about in my journal.

And if you are suggesting you get to 15 ppm CO2 from all of that I just don't buy it. Do you know much CO2 you need to inject to get to that level? How did you determine this??


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## Profector (Oct 7, 2010)

Greggz said:


> Interesting explanation and belief.
> 
> One last question. How does more good bacteria mean more CO2??
> 
> There is some CO2 in every tank when at equilibrium with the atmosphere. Generally around 3 to 4 ppm. Are you suggesting that having snails and the whole process as you described it increases CO2 levels in the tank? If so, to what level? Something meaningful? Have you tested this in any way? If so, how?


There a book called The ecology of a planted aquarium by Diana Walstad that does a better job of explaining the science and citing empirical tests. You don’t get as much co2 or as steady of a supply of co2 compared to injection, but it’s a natural means of supplying co2 to the tank. It not as simple as dripping snails in the tank. I feel like I’m high jacking the thread so if you want to continue the conversion we should start our own thread for this topic.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Profector said:


> There a book called The ecology of a planted aquarium by Diana Walstad that does a better job of explaining the science and citing empirical tests. You don’t get as much co2 or as steady of a supply of co2 compared to injection, but it’s a natural means of supplying co2 to the tank. It not as simple as dripping snails in the tank. I feel like I’m high jacking the thread so if you want to continue the conversion we should start our own thread for this topic.


Oh my OK Diana I get it now.


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## Profector (Oct 7, 2010)

Greggz said:


> I agree with @Asteroid above about this.
> 
> A dirty substrate does mean a dirty tank. And in general means more organics, poorer plant growth, and more algae. And certain more difficult plants absolutely won't tolerate it. A clean substrate is all part of keeping uber clean conditions which is one of the keys to a successful planted tank.
> 
> ...


There’s more than one way nurture a planted tank. I should have stated that in a high tech planted tank, snails and a biologically active substrate aren’t as useful as they are in a low tech planted tank. There is science that supports both methods. That said high tech tanks can make for faster growth and usually are better looking if you willing to put in the effort.



Greggz said:


> Oh my OK Diana I get it now.


I’m not a Walstad fundamentalist but I do beleave that people do better in the hobby when they incorporate a certain amount of science into their efforts. You asked for pics give me a few. If you look closely you might see a co2 tube.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Profector said:


> You asked for pics give me a few.


I didn't ask for pics. 

But now that you mentioned it I am interested in seeing what you are up to.

Here's my tank.


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## fredw3533 (12 mo ago)

Composed of very fine strands or tufts, it grows in dense patches resembling a dirty green beard, thus earning its name. It can also be bright green, blue-green to blackish green. It is soft, slippery, and grows rapidly, yet clings tenaciously to plants and cannot be easily removed by hand. It is eaten by only a few fish, notably the Florida Flag Fish and the Siamese Algae Eater 


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## Profector (Oct 7, 2010)

neocaridina shrimp on hollowed out driftwood from the local creek. I like seeing shrimp emerge from the darkness.



shrimp on java moss, the same piece of driftwood. They spend a lot of time cleaning the moss
l



Greggz said:


> I didn't ask for pics.
> 
> But now that you mentioned it I am interested in seeing what you are up to.
> 
> ...


very very nice looking tank, sorry must have quoted the wrong person



Profector said:


> neocaridina shrimp on hollowed out driftwood from the local creek. I like seeing shrimp emerge from the darkness.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 let me try that again, I don't usually post pictures



















Here's the pictures that will let people say told you so picture. Algae near the bottom of the tank. This shrimp is happy and berried. I assume when I put the driftwood in the tank I got a few pond snails with it. That or they came in on one of the plant swaps, either way, they died out pretty quick. Hence the snail shell she's dancing on.











Everything else.










Males guppies at the top of a different tank thinking I'm going to feed them.


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## Profector (Oct 7, 2010)

Profector said:


> Males guppies at the top of a different tank thinking I'm going to feed them.


I give up on pictures but you get the idea. Not a high-tech tank.


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## Eric Tran (Jul 7, 2016)

I recently had a battle with bba in my 180 gallon 6 feet high tech planted discus and angelfish tank. Over a year as well. It was on the walls, plants, heck they even formed a bba carpet. 8 discus, 6 altum angels, 30 rummy nose, 30 cardinals, 8 roseline sharks, you can imagine the amount of organic waste in the tank. Having to weekly change out 50% of the water and running 2 fluval fx5 created a bba and algae heaven.

I’ll tell you what fixed the problem. A lot of research on here and advice from the pros but the main thing was *Proper Flow*. It’s as simple as that. I used to have the two fx5 outflows creating a circular flow pattern mounting the outflows on opposite sides of the tank. I thought this was enough flow. The problem? *Not the right kind of flow. *There was a nice circular flow but the Co2 and nutrients didn’t reach down deep enough into the tank for the plants to have access. Old leaves would just die and decay. Also the mulm and detritus collected in dead spots. This is where bba thrived. The main problems with bba is not enough Co2 and flow. Since I was injecting Co2 until fish were gasping and backing off a bit from there I knew I had enough. Problem was also not enough Co2 and nutrients getting to the deeper areas of the tank.

The solution? I installed a 5 feet diy pvc spray bar with each fx5 filter outflow plugged into each end. This fixed the flow pattern and also removed all the dead flow spots in my tank. You want big enough holes in the spray bar so that it’s a gentle laminar flow not a jet like flow. That way you’re still getting max flow rate and filtering max water volume, but not so turbulent. Like a gentle flowing river. The water would flow out the spraybar gently hitting the surface to create aeration and then hit the front of the glass, then down to the bottom and through the substrate to the back glass. The filters became cleaning machines as any mulm or organic matter would get swept up into the flow and find is way to the intakes on either side. This and continuing my regular weekly maintenance removed all bba from the tank. Now my filters do all the work even with the high organic load. My tank is still in recovery but all the bba and algae is disappearing and not growing back.



Profector said:


> very very nice looking tank, sorry must have quoted the wrong person


yeah you don’t want to poke at Greggz 🙂. His tanks were featured in a magazine what many people on here can only dream of their tanks looking like.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Eric Tran said:


> The solution? I installed a 5 feet diy pvc spray bar with each fx5 filter outflow plugged into each end. This fixed the flow pattern and also removed all the dead flow spots in my tank. You want big enough holes in the spray bar so that it’s a gentle laminar flow not a jet like flow. That way you’re still getting max flow rate and filtering max water volume, but not so turbulent. Like a gentle flowing river. The water would flow out the spraybar gently hitting the surface to create aeration and then hit the front of the glass, then down to the bottom and through the substrate to the back glass. The filters became cleaning machines as any mulm or organic matter would get swept up into the flow and find is way to the intakes on either side. This and continuing my regular weekly maintenance removed all bba from the tank. Now my filters do all the work even with the high organic load. My tank is still in recovery but all the bba and algae is disappearing and not growing back.


Exactly the way I have mine set up and well described.

Gentle laminar flow with a purpose.

People misunderstand good flow. Many think that means plants waving around. It's not. Too much and too concentrated flow is an easy way to bring on a batch on BBA.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Profector said:


> Here's the pictures that will let people say told you so picture. Algae near the bottom of the tank. This shrimp is happy and berried. I assume when I put the driftwood in the tank I got a few pond snails with it. That or they came in on one of the plant swaps, either way, they died out pretty quick. Hence the snail shell she's dancing on.
> 
> 
> View attachment 1037480


Thanks for the pic. There are alot of different ways to enjoy this hobby. As mentioned, tanks that are kept low in organics by fast growing plants, religious water changes and good maintenance have far less restrictions on light and what the tank can look like aesthetically. The Walstad method has it's place, but it is restrictive in the sense that you need easy plants that grow in lower light. High organics and high light create algae issues, most notably BBA. From your pic, it looks like the light is pretty dim and you have a few easy to grow plants, which is what works in such a setup.


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## Raife (Mar 28, 2019)

Eric Tran said:


> I recently had a battle with bba in my 180 gallon 6 feet high tech planted discus and angelfish tank. Over a year as well. It was on the walls, plants, heck they even formed a bba carpet. 8 discus, 6 altum angels, 30 rummy nose, 30 cardinals, 8 roseline sharks, you can imagine the amount of organic waste in the tank. Having to weekly change out 50% of the water and running 2 fluval fx5 created a bba and algae heaven.
> 
> I’ll tell you what fixed the problem. A lot of research on here and advice from the pros but the main thing was *Proper Flow*. It’s as simple as that. I used to have the two fx5 outflows creating a circular flow pattern mounting the outflows on opposite sides of the tank. I thought this was enough flow. The problem? *Not the right kind of flow. *There was a nice circular flow but the Co2 and nutrients didn’t reach down deep enough into the tank for the plants to have access. Old leaves would just die and decay. Also the mulm and detritus collected in dead spots. This is where bba thrived. The main problems with bba is not enough Co2 and flow. Since I was injecting Co2 until fish were gasping and backing off a bit from there I knew I had enough. Problem was also not enough Co2 and nutrients getting to the deeper areas of the tank.
> 
> The solution? I installed a 5 feet diy pvc spray bar with each fx5 filter outflow plugged into each end. This fixed the flow pattern and also removed all the dead flow spots in my tank. You want big enough holes in the spray bar so that it’s a gentle laminar flow not a jet like flow. That way you’re still getting max flow rate and filtering max water volume, but not so turbulent. Like a gentle flowing river. The water would flow out the spraybar gently hitting the surface to create aeration and then hit the front of the glass, then down to the bottom and through the substrate to the back glass. The filters became cleaning machines as any mulm or organic matter would get swept up into the flow and find is way to the intakes on either side. This and continuing my regular weekly maintenance removed all bba from the tank. Now my filters do all the work even with the high organic load. My tank is still in recovery but all the bba and algae is disappearing and not growing back.


Good morning. Do you have a picture of the setup? I am still dialing in my setup and am getting some BBA. I have 2 Fluval 306 canisters set up in a circular flow. But the "getting down to the bottom" seems like it could be an issue for me. I have CO2 reactor inline on one of my 306s.

Thank you.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Eric Tran said:


> yeah you don’t want to poke at Greggz 🙂. His tanks were featured in a magazine what many people on here can only dream of their tanks looking like.


Ha I don't mind being "poked".

I enjoy a healthy debate/discussion and have learned much from them over the years. In the end my opinions are shaped by my experience, but I recognize there are many ways to run a successful tank and others may have a different experience.


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## Eric Tran (Jul 7, 2016)

Raife said:


> Good morning. Do you have a picture of the setup? I am still dialing in my setup and am getting some BBA. I have 2 Fluval 306 canisters set up in a circular flow. But the "getting down to the bottom" seems like it could be an issue for me. I have CO2 reactor inline on one of my 306s.
> 
> Thank you.


Here are pics of my setup through the years. Another thing I learned was that there is a such thing is too much light. These are reef lights which can put 300-400 par at the bottom of the tank since they use 90 degree focus lenses. I have since taken off the lenses and ordered 120 degree lenses. This helped a lot with algae as well.









This setup was beautiful but extremely tough to keep everything in balance since flow was not good, and lights were way overpowered. Weekly maintenance to remove all the fish poo and detritus was hell.One skipped dosing and tank was not in balance. Carpet plants would just melt since the par was too high. You can also see nutrients and Co2 not being delivered to the lower plant leaves which we’re small and even melted off. People tend to think just because you have some kind of flow Co2 and nutrients are automatically mixed into all parts of the tank. Not the case. For this tank, Co2 and nutrients were mostly being concentrated at the top and not flowing throughout the whole tank.









Bba and algae quickly took over so I had to do some changes. Here you can see I made a spray bar on the side with another output on the other side. This helped but flow would have to go from one side of the tank to the other then it would just bring all the mulm and detritus to the middle and settle there. It all went downhill from here. BBA took over this tank. I don't have pictures of the bba infestation but I had to trash most of my plants and really clean everything up. I thought about giving up and redoing the whole tank. Light still way overpowered and this was still maintenance hell. The lights could be turned down but then the beams would be too focused and light was lost on the sides.

I don’t have any pictures of my tank while it was really infested with bba and algae since no one really thinks to take a picture of a messed up tank. But here is the tank now. New lenses for the lights are coming in so excuse the cardboard to cover the lights. Some light adjusting is still necessary as well. But you can see I threw out most of my plants and also no more bba. This tank just needs time now to grow everything back.


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## Eric Tran (Jul 7, 2016)

Greggz said:


> Exactly the way I have mine set up and well described.
> 
> Gentle laminar flow with a purpose.
> 
> People misunderstand good flow. Many think that means plants waving around. It's not. Too much and too concentrated flow is an easy way to bring on a batch on BBA.


Yes I agree people tend to think they need a strong turbulent flow. Funny story I told my cousin how to set up his spraybar and when he saw the flow he told me his filter was broken. He showed me a video of the setup and the flow was actually perfect. Good flow is a high volume of water flow spread out in a wide pattern that is gentle enough but gets the water in your whole tank to move a predictable way. In the case of a spraybar, the water in the tank churns in a horizontal circular way and detritus gets picked up and churns until it gets to the sides where the intakes are. The first time I saw this happening in my tank was quite eye opening. The flow works to bring nutrients to the plants and clean up detritus for you.


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## rzn7z7 (Aug 17, 2013)

Eric Tran said:


> View attachment 1037548


That is one large spraybar....but it looks like it's doing its job! What brand of lights are those on the tank?


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## Eric Tran (Jul 7, 2016)

It’s viparspectra 165w it’s a cheap Chinese black box that is very well regarded in reef tank community. Just gotta make some adjustments.


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## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

Just curious why does plants waving from flow cause bba ? I have a bba issue myself in one specific area; my thought was to add a power head at the bottom of the tank to induce flow around the problematic area - the power head (actually a pump) is very small but of course the flow would be more concentrated. I can't do the trick with spray bar as I have a matten filter with air powered jet stream in the back (the problem area is a small spot up front - roughly 1.5 to 2 inch square near the front bottom.

Also the only other bba i ahve is in the back on tubing right in the middle of the jetstream output (the 'jet stream' is like the center tube on a sponge filter but much more efficient and therefore much stronger flow - the matten filter is in the back corner so the flow runs along the back near the top of the tank).



Greggz said:


> Exactly the way I have mine set up and well described.
> 
> Gentle laminar flow with a purpose.
> 
> People misunderstand good flow. Many think that means plants waving around. It's not. Too much and too concentrated flow is an easy way to bring on a batch on BBA.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

jake21 said:


> Just curious why does plants waving from flow cause bba ? I have a bba issue myself in one specific area; my thought was to add a power head at the bottom of the tank to induce flow around the problematic area - the power head (actually a pump) is very small but of course the flow would be more concentrated. I can't do the trick with spray bar as I have a matten filter with air powered jet stream in the back (the problem area is a small spot up front - roughly 1.5 to 2 inch square near the front bottom.
> 
> Also the only other bba i ahve is in the back on tubing right in the middle of the jetstream output (the 'jet stream' is like the center tube on a sponge filter but much more efficient and therefore much stronger flow - the matten filter is in the back corner so the flow runs along the back near the top of the tank).


It's pretty well known in the hobby that BBA loves areas of fast concentrated flow. There are many theories as to why but it matters little. 

A long time ago I did some experimenting with flow. At the time I had a large piece of driftwood in my tank. When I aimed a power head directly at it, BBA would form right at the spot with the strongest flow. Remove the power head and BBA receded. 

And many, many others have made similar observations over the years. In my opinion too much flow is worse than not enough. Adding lots of power heads seems to be an American thing. You would be shocked how little flow planted tanks in the rest of the world have.


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## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

Greggz said:


> It's pretty well known in the hobby that BBA loves areas of fast concentrated flow. There are many theories as to why but it matters little.
> 
> A long time ago I did some experimenting with flow. At the time I had a large piece of driftwood in my tank. When I aimed a power head directly at it, BBA would form right at the spot with the strongest flow. Remove the power head and BBA receded.
> 
> And many, many others have made similar observations over the years. In my opinion too much flow is worse than not enough. Adding lots of power heads seems to be an American thing. You would be shocked how little flow planted tanks in the rest of the world have.


Well if I remove the jetstream; then the tank will have no filtration; so there is that trade off. The pump I have at the front of the tank - there is no bba - the bba is on the opposite side (40B). So not sure.... Hum. Can't really think of a way to buffit the jetstream as I would need something as tall as the tank in front of it.


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## Eric Tran (Jul 7, 2016)

Any pics of the outflow? Maybe you could increase its diameter. With bba it is said they like areas of strong turbulent flow because Co2 concentration is always fluctuating in that area mixing with Co2 concentration around and inside the turbulent flow.


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## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

Eric Tran said:


> Any pics of the outflow? Maybe you could increase its diameter. With bba it is said they like areas of strong turbulent flow because Co2 concentration is always fluctuating in that area mixing with Co2 concentration around and inside the turbulent flow.


I'll try to get one tuesday when i do a water change; the problem is that it is at the back of the tank and covered with java fern. I'm actually ripping hte java fern out tuesday when i do water change to add new plants so that should make it easier to photograph.



Eric Tran said:


> Any pics of the outflow? Maybe you could increase its diameter. With bba it is said they like areas of strong turbulent flow because Co2 concentration is always fluctuating in that area mixing with Co2 concentration around and inside the turbulent flow.


Ok here is a picture. Normally the water level is level with the outflow but during water changes it drop a bit so the picture is misleading in that aspect:


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## Eric Tran (Jul 7, 2016)

Looks like a ton of bba on the filter walls as well. Definitely try and clean that off. I know you mentioned you can’t have a spray bar but why not? Seems like you can easily make a diy spraybar to attach to that.


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## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

Eric Tran said:


> Looks like a ton of bba on the filter walls as well. Definitely try and clean that off. I know you mentioned you can’t have a spray bar but why not? Seems like you can easily make a diy spraybar to attach to that.


So basically suggesting i buy some pvc of the right diam; drill some holes; run it along the back and glue it into the outlet of the jetstream - probably should angle it down for the right 'type' of current. Marginally concern the stream isn't strong enough to withstand back pressure but i could try. The sponges do seem to build up a lot of muck and bba but it does that in all the tanks (high-tech and low tech); and pretty much equally so - Not sure why. I clean it about once every 6 months.


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## Eric Tran (Jul 7, 2016)

No need for glue and you can control the strength of the stream by making the holes of the spraybar bigger. Start small though and increase as you need. You don't want a super strong spray just enough the move all the water in your aquarium and have plants sway slightly in the flow.


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## Aaron Harmon (12 mo ago)

I have some BBA, just a little. It is a brand new 100-gallon tank with a 30-gallon sump. The BBA is growing within a few inches of my CO2 diffuser. I don't understand the role of CO2 in controlling BBA. I am using a Milwaukee PH controller which does not allow my PH to drop below 6.5. I only have a diffuser on one side of the tank at this point, but the BBA is growing on the side with the CO2. I am new to planted aquariums. Can someone help me understand this?


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Aaron Harmon said:


> I have some BBA, just a little. It is a brand new 100-gallon tank with a 30-gallon sump. The BBA is growing within a few inches of my CO2 diffuser. I don't understand the role of CO2 in controlling BBA. I am using a Milwaukee PH controller which does not allow my PH to drop below 6.5. I only have a diffuser on one side of the tank at this point, but the BBA is growing on the side with the CO2. I am new to planted aquariums. Can someone help me understand this?


C02 in itself is not an algaecide. It does not kill BBA or other algae, in fact it will enhance it's growth, confused yet LOL? What it does do is allow plants to uptake nutrients at a faster rate. It's the nutrients that are provided via decomposing organics that we care about. The plants fueled by the co2 can take in ammonia and other toxins very quickly and rob it from developing algae. It's these toxins that spur algae spores to develop into the algae you see in your tank. So the "algae advantage" with co2 is completely reliant on plants. The more plants the greater the benefit. With just a few plants you probably won't see much algae control from CO2.


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## Anon (Mar 16, 2014)

Foxy_ZA said:


> Easylife easy carbo every day 2ml.


Hi @Foxy_ZA

Are you still having problems with BBA? May I ask why you are adding _Easy Carbo_ even though you are injecting CO2? If I've overlooked something, then I apologize in advance.

Anon


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## Foxy_ZA (12 mo ago)

Anon said:


> Hi @Foxy_ZA
> 
> Are you still having problems with BBA? May I ask why you are adding _Easy Carbo_ even though you are injecting CO2? If I've overlooked something, then I apologize in advance.
> 
> Anon


Ho have


Anon said:


> Hi @Foxy_ZA
> 
> Are you still having problems with BBA? May I ask why you are adding _Easy Carbo_ even though you are injecting CO2? If I've overlooked something, then I apologize in advance.
> 
> Anon


I have started spraying the tank with diluted easy Carbo when doing water changes. It has died in the places that have been sprayed. I am spot dosing the affected areas with the easy Carbo. I have moved the co2 diffuser and the bubbles are being distributed more evenly and have planted a pack of root tabs.


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