# Asia has Amano, Europe has Knott, US has...?



## MrAlmostWrong (Jul 16, 2012)

There are hundreds/thousands of brilliant aquascapers around the world and a good number in the US, but I'm not sure if I'm missing something, but there doesn't seem to be an iconic aquascaper in the US as the other regions mentioned in the title. While I think the planted aquarium community has been great to each other around the world so there doesn't necessarily have to be one in the US, I'm just curious to know if there is one and if there isn't why do you think that is?

I think Tom Barr is close to it, but I always get the feeling his passion is in trying out new plants instead of making a business out of the actual hobby of aquascaping. Absolutely nothing wrong with that as his information has been immense help to me over the past year.


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## Centromochlus (May 19, 2008)

Jeff Senske? Jason Baliban?
Some of their scapes, especially Jeff's, rival Amano's IMO. They're both brilliant aquascapers.


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## MrAlmostWrong (Jul 16, 2012)

Indeed they have some brilliant scapes. Like I mentioned with Barr, it might just come down to marketing. It makes sense for Amano, Knott, and James (The Green Machine) to continuously push out great looking aquascapes and show them off because then it helps them to sell more goods. The US market seems pretty lean on the beautiful aquascaping front so there hasn't been a need for an individual to push hard with their aquascapes. For example, Finnex does great lighting, Cal Aqua handles lily pipes, filters are all over the place, and we are still waiting on a strong substrate. Amano has whole systems that he sells so it works even more so when he can showcase an aquascape and claim that all his products are the result of them.


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## pantherspawn (Dec 21, 2011)

The senske brothers? The us hobby is severely limited by availability. Oliver Knott, isn't American, but he isn't Asian either.. Lol


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I think Jeff is perhaps the best US scaper overall.

I say this for a few reasons, the various other displays he's done over the last 15 years or so, kill ADA's, eg, the emergent growth tanks, the livestock and non planted tanks, the Reefs, ADA stinks there as do most of their vendors.
To me, Jeff is a far more well rounded aquarist overall. A jack of all trades and master of many. While his planted tanks might not rival Amano's, he can pull them off effectively. I've only seen a few very so so reefs from the others.


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## sayurasem (Jun 17, 2011)

Chuck Norris.


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## steven p (Jun 22, 2012)

Imo, amano styled tanks look stuffy and over-natural if that makes sense...


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## dzega (Apr 22, 2013)

sayurasem said:


> Chuck Norris.


haha this joke never gets old


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## MrAlmostWrong (Jul 16, 2012)

pantherspawn said:


> The senske brothers? The us hobby is severely limited by availability. Oliver Knott, isn't American, but he isn't Asian either.. Lol


? I never claimed he was American or Asian.


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## MrAlmostWrong (Jul 16, 2012)

plantbrain said:


> I think Jeff is perhaps the best US scaper overall.
> 
> I say this for a few reasons, the various other displays he's done over the last 15 years or so, kill ADA's, eg, the emergent growth tanks, the livestock and non planted tanks, the Reefs, ADA stinks there as do most of their vendors.
> To me, Jeff is a far more well rounded aquarist overall. A jack of all trades and master of many. While his planted tanks might not rival Amano's, he can pull them off effectively. I've only seen a few very so so reefs from the others.


I haven't had the fortune to see some of his reef work besides the 1 or 2 on ADG's site. Interesting that he is able to so easily transition through waters.

There might have been some confusion with my topic. I'm not saying America doesn't have people as skilled (or even better than) as Amano and Knott, I'm just wondering why no one has become a household name in the community at least. However, with Senske being brought up multiple times in this thread maybe he is more of a household name than I thought.


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## AnotherHobby (Mar 5, 2012)

MrAlmostWrong said:


> There might have been some confusion with my topic. I'm not saying America doesn't have people as skilled (or even better than) as Amano and Knott, I'm just wondering why no one has become a household name in the community at least. However, with Senske being brought up multiple times in this thread maybe he is more of a household name than I thought.


Let me preface with what I'm about to say with an admittance that I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about. 

I wonder how much of it is simply culture. Looking at Japanese culture relative to American culture, they live in tiny spaces, they work in tiny spaces, they garden in tiny spaces, and basically do everything in tiny spaces. We do not. Much of what they do is intricate, with crazy attention to detail, and doing the most with limited space. These traits lend well to aquatic gardening being a perfect fit to the rest of their lives. As such, I'm guessing that it's far more popular over there than it is here. I'm referring to actual aquascaping... not fish tanks.

There isn't much about the hobby of aquatic gardening and aquascaping that I see as being in tune with general American culture, and as such I think it'll always be a very small niche hobby here. Yes, people will become popular on Internet forums and in aquatic clubs, but I don't ever see an aquarist becoming a household name in the US.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

AnotherHobby said:


> ...
> I wonder how much of it is simply culture. Looking at Japanese culture relative to American culture, they live in tiny spaces, they work in tiny spaces, they garden in tiny spaces, and basically do everything in tiny spaces. We do not. Much of what they do is intricate, with crazy attention to detail, and doing the most with limited space. These traits lend well to aquatic gardening being a perfect fit to the rest of their lives. As such, I'm guessing that it's far more popular over there than it is here. I'm referring to actual aquascaping... not fish tanks...


This has been discussed many times, and yes your right it's highly cultural. Aquascaping simply isn't that big here. It's kinda like soccer here compared to other parts of the world. Most big money here (installs) are still spent on Salt Water not Aquascapes. It's the fish!!!! 

In any given year only between 20-30 people from the US enter the IAPLC (Int'l Aquatic Plant Layout Contest) compared to around 1,000 from Asia. Unfortunately the number of America hasn't been growing.


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

Jeff and others, can someone post links to their tank pics? Ive seen a few of Amano's, the rest not much. Ive seen Knott's.


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

Senske brothers for sure.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

AnotherHobby said:


> Let me preface with what I'm about to say with an admittance that I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about.
> 
> I wonder how much of it is simply culture. Looking at Japanese culture relative to American culture, they live in tiny spaces, they work in tiny spaces, they garden in tiny spaces, and basically do everything in tiny spaces. We do not. Much of what they do is intricate, with crazy attention to detail, and doing the most with limited space. These traits lend well to aquatic gardening being a perfect fit to the rest of their lives. As such, I'm guessing that it's far more popular over there than it is here. I'm referring to actual aquascaping... not fish tanks.
> 
> There isn't much about the hobby of aquatic gardening and aquascaping that I see as being in tune with general American culture, and as such I think it'll always be a very small niche hobby here. Yes, people will become popular on Internet forums and in aquatic clubs, but I don't ever see an aquarist becoming a household name in the US.



Space has less to do with it than you imply. They are just better gardeners in general and have a longer history and reverence for it. 1000+ years, US? Europe? Not so much. Aesthetic pruning methods? Bonsai and other gardening forms? The US is pretty weak and has a small vocabulary for various terms. This is not true for Japan. Yes, they make do with what little space they now have, this is due to the high cost of land on an island. Sort of like living in Manhattan. 

This is independent of aquariums. Plenty of US aquarist live in small cramped spaces as well.


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## LonghornGardens (Jul 26, 2013)

We have Dustin. lol


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## MrAlmostWrong (Jul 16, 2012)

Japanese culture also sees minimalism and beautiful aesthetics as positives. While the US is very slowly going in that direction, it will still take some time. Aesthetics was mostly put aside for abundance because that is how you showed your place in society. Without having an upbringing in minimalistic taste and aesthetic you can easily see why we try to add more to our tanks (more plants, hardscape, fish, etc.) instead of realizing that sometimes we just need to take away from our tanks (less species of plants in a single tank, less species of fish) to achieve the beauty we are striving for.


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## core212 (Feb 23, 2009)

LonghornGardens said:


> We have Dustin. lol


Now that's a JOKE! LOL


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## Padraig Pearse (May 26, 2013)

plantbrain said:


> They are just better gardeners in general and have a longer history and reverence for it. 1000+ years, US? Europe? Not so much.


Europeans were gardening at the same time, if not before East Asians.


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## Indychus (Feb 21, 2013)

In the US, I think a lot of aquarists look down upon freshwater tanks. Most of my friends who are into aquariums are big time into reefs and see freshwater as the mickey mouse starter tanks for those who are not experienced enough to graduate to a "real" tank. I have tried to convince them that a lot of people prefer freshwater to no avail. Every time I walk into a new LFS, it's evident that most people don't take freshwater seriously... Aisle after aisle of pristine saltwater tanks and supplies, then just one small section of sickly goldfish, guppies, and kissing gouramis. Good luck finding plants in most LFS.


Sent from my HTC One X


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## TexasCichlid (Jul 12, 2011)

Indychus said:


> In the US, I think a lot of aquarists look down upon freshwater tanks. Most of my friends who are into aquariums are big time into reefs and see freshwater as the mickey mouse starter tanks for those who are not experienced enough to graduate to a "real" tank. I have tried to convince them that a lot of people prefer freshwater to no avail. Every time I walk into a new LFS, it's evident that most people don't take freshwater seriously... Aisle after aisle of pristine saltwater tanks and supplies, then just one small section of sickly goldfish, guppies, and kissing gouramis. Good luck finding plants in most LFS.
> 
> 
> Sent from my HTC One X



A lot of people getting into various hobbies initially equate money spent to hobby prestige. Most aquarium stores want to make as much money as possible. Salt water provides both avenues. It is VERY easy to spend a metric ton of money in salt. It is also VERY easy for an aquarium shop to sell a lot of expensive equipment and livestock ( esp delicate livestock ) to relative novices.

Now, TRY to spend as much money as a FW hobbyist. Much more difficult. Sure you can buy more lighting than you need ( usually SW leftovers ) and expensive specialty discus or the like, but even the most decked out FW setup will have trouble keeping up with the money put into an average salt tank. So, the cycle perpetuates.

I think this mentality is also why ADA equipment is so successful in some cases. Sure, the tanks are very nice, especially for the money and Aquasoil is the current gold standard. However, they have a lot of gimmicky and expensive stuff they sell that I think is simply marketed to the 'more money makes it better' crowd. They have just had more success in Japan marketing to that segment than they have in the States.


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## Green_Flash (Apr 15, 2012)

> I think this mentality is also why ADA equipment is so successful in some cases. Sure, the tanks are very nice, especially for the money and Aquasoil is the current gold standard. However, they have a lot of gimmicky and expensive stuff they sell that I think is simply marketed to the 'more money makes it better' crowd. They have just had more success in Japan marketing to that segment than they have in the States.


Having seen or tried a lot of their products, only a few of their products would not be worth the extra cost, imho. Overall, they are expensive, but also unique and highly functional in most cases. 

Tanks - worth it (rimless originator and mass availability in alot of unique sizes) 
Soils - worth it (top seller of all products)
Sands - Neutral (they have interesting types of freshwater sand)
Lights - worth it (the Solar series in person are truly impressive, best color spectrum I have seen hands down on any lighting system)
Filters - worth it ( Super-Jet series are the best canisters on the market with the best design and best pump, iwaki. They are SS and solid built)
Pipes - worth it (imho nothing compares to the genuine Lily Pipe series by ADA. I would spend $100 all day long on the outflow, that thing is awesome both in design and function)
CO2 Glassware - worth it (all are handmade in Japan still, if you go disc diffuser, pollen glass are great, they last a long time and look nice) 
Tools- not worth it (one of the few items I feel are overpriced for what you get, sure quality is nice and alot of unique sizes, but similar function can be found for much less)
Aquascaping materials - worth it (not much to say here, they bring in loads of desirable stones and woods, Unzan, Manten, Seiryu etc) 
Stands- Neutral ( awesome quality but definitely expensive, some cabinet shops cost as much but some can do it for less, depends on location)
Ferts and Additives - Neutral (They have their uses, like ease of use and good selection.)
CO2 hardware - neutral (depends, I think the reg is great and the tower, however they are metric so not of much use in the US)

but to answer the original question, I think we don't have a signature aquascaper that is clearly well above everyone.


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## TexasCichlid (Jul 12, 2011)

Tanks - worth it (rimless originator and mass availability in alot of unique sizes) - *sure they originated it, but it's not quite mass available and a lot of competing tank makers are starting to catch up.*
Soils - worth it (top seller of all products) - *I agree*
Sands - Neutral (they have interesting types of freshwater sand) - *I agree*
Lights - worth it (the Solar series in person are truly impressive, best color spectrum I have seen hands down on any lighting system) - *You can do the same thing with any number of full spectrum LED options for less money.*
Filters - worth it ( Super-Jet series are the best canisters on the market with the best design and best pump, iwaki. They are SS and solid built) - *Difficult to clean, expensive, not very innovative -- a SS cylinder with a pump. I would gladly pay less for an Eheim.*
Pipes - worth it (imho nothing compares to the genuine Lily Pipe series by ADA. I would spend $100 all day long on the outflow, that thing is awesome both in design and function) - *Break just as easily as eBay knockoffs from what I have seen. Cal Aqua makes some nice, study pipes as well for less.*
CO2 Glassware - worth it (all are handmade in Japan still, if you go disc diffuser, pollen glass are great, they last a long time and look nice) - *I use reactors so cannot comment.*
Tools- not worth it (one of the few items I feel are overpriced for what you get, sure quality is nice and alot of unique sizes, but similar function can be found for much less) - *I agree*
Aquascaping materials - worth it (not much to say here, they bring in loads of desirable stones and woods, Unzan, Manten, Seiryu etc) - *Bought my seiryu for way less from a guy on the forum, plenty of nice rocks out there that don't have the ADA markup.*
Stands- Neutral ( awesome quality but definitely expensive, some cabinet shops cost as much but some can do it for less, depends on location) - *Toss up there.*
Ferts and Additives - Neutral (They have their uses, like ease of use and good selection.) - *$$$$ - Zero reason to use the stuff when a big ol bag of dry ferts will do the same thing, I won't even touch on the snake oil products they sell*
CO2 hardware - neutral (depends, I think the reg is great and the tower, however they are metric so not of much use in the US) -* Neutral when it's not even really usable in the States? I will take a nice custom regulator from OldPunk or Bettatail any day of the week.
*


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

Asia has Cliff Hui, never mind amano! With all due respect to amano, of course.

jB


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

MrAlmostWrong said:


> Japanese culture also sees minimalism and beautiful aesthetics as positives. While the US is very slowly going in that direction, it will still take some time. Aesthetics was mostly put aside for abundance because that is how you showed your place in society. Without having an upbringing in minimalistic taste and aesthetic you can easily see why we try to add more to our tanks (more plants, hardscape, fish, etc.) instead of realizing that sometimes we just need to take away from our tanks (less species of plants in a single tank, less species of fish) to achieve the beauty we are striving for.


US loves collectoritis.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Jason Baliban said:


> Asia has Cliff Hui, never mind amano! With all due respect to amano, of course.
> 
> jB


I'd says the CAU guys are REALLY good.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> I'd says the CAU guys are REALLY good.


Yes sir!

jB


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Here you have plant clubs there you have aquascaping unions. Another cultural difference. Doesn't take away from the incredible talent at CAU, but shows some very real differences.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I think many of the scapers who do well are more interested and have available hardscaping supplies, many of the FW people in the USA Rarely use reef methods to build rock like structures. 

This combines the rock pieces into larger, more dramatic forms. Long from Vietnam does this a lot. 

Reef people in the USA seem more willing to build and focus on the hardscape. The Plant people: virtually none. I'm guilty of this even as I build reefs and work with the rocks there. Ohko stone would work fairly well, but you need a lot of rock as much of it will break as you drill and modify it.

With driftwood, this is a rather easy process. But many still do not bother.
Unnatural edges can be hidden with moss and plants etc. Maybe I'll start using Rock and building with it like this. I've thought about it since I saw Long's tank a few years ago. 

Seiryu sucks for this though since it is so hard and raises the KH. Very tough to saw or drill into.


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## MrAlmostWrong (Jul 16, 2012)

plantbrain said:


> I think many of the scapers who do well are more interested and have available hardscaping supplies, many of the FW people in the USA Rarely use reef methods to build rock like structures.


I've been guilty of this and only recently have been trying to build a better foundation with hardscape (mostly rocks). I think we too often see the finished product of a scape and assume it is all about how we make the plants grow without realizing that many of them are just growing around a foundation already put into place. 

Reminds me of trying to emulate a comic book artist. We see the final product and try to mimic that without realizing there are some very basic circles and lines that start the whole process off.


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## ThatGuyWithTheFish (Apr 29, 2012)

We have Tom Barr, lol!


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Oliver Knott is capable of nice scapes as long as he stays away from the "novelty" scapes he seems to have a predilection for. No one has mentioned the folks over at UKAPS.org. George Farmer, Graeme Edwards and Dan Crawford to name a few.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Jeff5614 said:


> Oliver Knott is capable of nice scapes as long as he stays away from the "novelty" scapes he seems to have a predilection for. No one has mentioned the folks over at UKAPS.org. George Farmer, Graeme Edwards and Dan Crawford to name a few.


Both good points. I don't know the other's as well, but George Farmer is definitely top notch.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

houseofcards said:


> Both good points. I don't know the other's as well, but George Farmer is definitely top notch.


Here's a link with some of their tanks.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/georgefarmer/sets/72157624095164480/

And a video


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## Green_Flash (Apr 15, 2012)

Tanks - worth it (rimless originator and mass availability in alot of unique sizes) - *sure they originated it, but it's not quite mass available and a lot of competing tank makers are starting to catch up.*

I meant availability as in comparison to other similar rimless brands. Nano-large size and the Waterfall tank is pretty cool. Custom builders not included. 

Lights - worth it (the Solar series in person are truly impressive, best color spectrum I have seen hands down on any lighting system) - *You can do the same thing with any number of full spectrum LED options for less money.*

That might be true, but LED is still a highly debated topic among all hobbyists currently. The benefits are present, some have issues with full/correct spectrum in comparison to T5 and MH fixtures though. The fixtures that are similar to a MH unit are ones like the Radion, AI, GHL Mitras and Maxspect. All of which were designed for a Reef tank and cost as much as a Solar I if not much more. Yes they are feature packed, w/ dimming and 24 hr lighting, but in reality does that really matter on a planted tank? I would rather have a pleasing spectrum, they suffer from disco ball shimmer effect. 

Filters - worth it ( Super-Jet series are the best canisters on the market with the best design and best pump, iwaki. They are SS and solid built) - *Difficult to clean, expensive, not very innovative -- a SS cylinder with a pump. I would gladly pay less for an Eheim.*

I would say as difficult to clean as an Eheim, Fluval FX5, Fluval G6 or any comparable canister. Actually maybe a tad easier, because they provide a media bag. Latches unhooked and then rinse the media, pretty simple. The one innovation I would give is probably the pump being external in addition to the material use. 

Pipes - worth it (imho nothing compares to the genuine Lily Pipe series by ADA. I would spend $100 all day long on the outflow, that thing is awesome both in design and function) - *Break just as easily as eBay knockoffs from what I have seen. Cal Aqua makes some nice, study pipes as well for less.*

That is true for all glassware, I was talking more in the originality of all the designs. They created the classic Lily, Violet, Poppy, and Spin pipes, all of which are always knocked off it seems. I like to reward the innovators not the imitators for these types of products. Why? The reason is simple, by supporting the company that actually cares about making new products for planted tanks and R&D other products. How many times have you seen a cool new product for a Reef Tank? Countless. How about a planted tank? Rarely if ever, it seems all we get is the leftover "same old" same old selection. 


Aquascaping materials - worth it (not much to say here, they bring in loads of desirable stones and woods, Unzan, Manten, Seiryu etc) - *Bought my seiryu for way less from a guy on the forum, plenty of nice rocks out there that don't have the ADA markup.*

Aside from that example, regarding price and selection how many other woods or rocks that you can buy (that have great character and aquascaping potential) do you know of? AFA has some but they are just as much as ADA rocks. I think this is one of the key reasons we don't have as many good scapes as the rest of the world. Imagine being able to pick through this:










(ADA store in Hungary btw) 

Ferts and Additives - Neutral (They have their uses, like ease of use and good selection.) - *$$$$ - Zero reason to use the stuff when a big ol bag of dry ferts will do the same thing, I won't even touch on the snake oil products they sell*

Well that is also a hot debate subject, I will just say some people like to use the push bottle and don't have time to mix dry ferts. 

CO2 hardware - neutral (depends, I think the reg is great and the tower, however they are metric so not of much use in the US) -* Neutral when it's not even really usable in the States? I will take a nice custom regulator from OldPunk or Bettatail any day of the week.
*
Yes, they make good regs too. I just couldn't really give a negative opinion because they are designed for use on a different measurement system. Sample pool too small. But judging from all the setups in Asia I have seen they look pretty nice.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Jeff5614 said:


> Here's a link with some of there tanks.
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/georgefarmer/sets/72157624095164480/


Thanks! 



Green_Flash said:


> ...Aside from that example, regarding price and selection how many other woods or rocks that you can buy (that have great character and aquascaping potential) do you know of? AFA has some but they are just as much as ADA rocks. I think this is one of the key reasons we don't have as many good scapes as the rest of the world. Imagine being able to pick through this:...


I always believed one of the main ingredients of making a good scape is inventory. Not that you can't do it with a small inventory, but thing of creating an iwagumi and you needed seven rocks. It would certainly be easier to find the perfect pieces if your choosing from 100 pieces rather than 10. You still need the talent, but it usally takes several factors to fall into place to make a standout scape.


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

Jason Baliban said:


> Asia has Cliff Hui, never mind amano! With all due respect to amano, of course.
> 
> jB


Aha! Its his Destiny, 2008 scape that got me. Ever since then Ive been wanting to do a tree trunk scape like that. I just love the way he did it. Love it!!!!! I love the depth too, I think breeder tanks have depth? My next tank is gonna be a breeder for sure.

More pics people! I want to search these guys and get inspired by their scapes. Remember when we saw dw being used as a tree with moss on top? Wasn't that crazy? Then we saw floating rocks..These guys are crazy! Great ideas and imagination.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

I didnt realize i was named as a 'contender.'

Anyway, FWIW, here are some of mine.

www.projectaquarium.com

jB


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## TexasCichlid (Jul 12, 2011)

Green_Flash said:


> Aside from that example, regarding price and selection how many other woods or rocks that you can buy (that have great character and aquascaping potential) do you know of? AFA has some but they are just as much as ADA rocks. I think this is one of the key reasons we don't have as many good scapes as the rest of the world. Imagine being able to pick through this:


For wood, you can buy just as nice/nicer from Tom Barr without the ADA markup. For rocks? Lots of options. A few guys on the forum sell nice pieces of seiryu. DaveFish sells a terrific looking rock variety called dragonstone. Heck, I just bought over 1000lbs of burled/barked petrified wood that I am going to pick through for my next hardscape. It was 60 bucks.


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## Indychus (Feb 21, 2013)

I know this is likely to offend someone, but if you pay the outrageous prices for rocks from ADA just because they have an exotic sounding made-up name then you have a problem. Not sure if it's lack of brains, too much money, or too prissy to go on a walk through the woods or wade out into a river or lake... but last time I checked, rocks and driftwood was free. You could probably buy a plane ticket and fly to anywhere you want to find exotic stones for what ADA wants for theirs, and have a better story to tell when you get back.

Sent from my HTC One X


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

samee said:


> ...Remember when we saw dw being used as a tree with moss on top? ...


One of the first really nice moss trees was done by Filipe Oliveira. It was a smaller tank I think about a 60p and he took 10th place one year in IAPLC. That was the highest rank I ever saw (might have changed) for a tank that size. The top tanks are usually 3-5 ft.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

TexasCichlid said:


> For wood, you can buy just as nice/nicer from Tom Barr without the ADA markup. For rocks? Lots of options. A few guys on the forum sell nice pieces of seiryu. DaveFish sells a terrific looking rock variety called dragonstone. Heck, I just bought over 1000lbs of burled/barked petrified wood that I am going to pick through for my next hardscape. It was 60 bucks.


Wood? This is my driveway:












Stone?












I'll be adding this set of black lava into a client's tank next week.


Oddly, you'd think I have enough selection, but that's just not the way it is.
The search for the right piece to fit into a group is madding.


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## Jester946 (Mar 30, 2013)

Tom, I live for your responses. They're classic, everytime.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Nice wood!

If I had that wood on my driveway the police would be knocking on my door.


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## Green_Flash (Apr 15, 2012)

TexasCichlid said:


> For wood, you can buy just as nice/nicer from Tom Barr without the ADA markup. For rocks? Lots of options. A few guys on the forum sell nice pieces of seiryu. DaveFish sells a terrific looking rock variety called dragonstone. Heck, I just bought over 1000lbs of burled/barked petrified wood that I am going to pick through for my next hardscape. It was 60 bucks.


That is nice and all, but even that so called Seiryu sold on ebay and here is purchased from a Bonsai shop and marked up double- even triple (not including shipping) what they bought it for, 50 cents a lb I think it is. Those resellers aren't importing it from where that rock is found (China). Real Seiryu is now illegal to collect in Japan and has been for about 5 or 6 years. 



Indychus said:


> I know this is likely to offend someone, but if you pay the outrageous prices for rocks from ADA just because they have an exotic sounding made-up name then you have a problem. Not sure if it's lack of brains, too much money, or too prissy to go on a walk through the woods or wade out into a river or lake... but last time I checked, rocks and driftwood was free. You could probably buy a plane ticket and fly to anywhere you want to find exotic stones for what ADA wants for theirs, and have a better story to tell when you get back.


Not so fast, some of their named stones come from real places where in many cases that is only where those types of rocks can be found. Sado-akadama is from Sado Island, which ADA obtained a special permit from the Japanese Government to collect a limited amount. Seiryu was from the Seiryu region in Japan as well. The stuff you see for sale is collected in Southeast China today. Hakkai rock is from the Hakkai River in Japan, also a protected area and one of the most famous, having the bug eaten appearance. Think of it like this, say you want to make a tank that replicates a Caribbean Reef. Would you not want to use rocks from the Caribbean to perfect that look? Sure you can use Info-pacific rocks, but, those have different textures, and are more blunt/rounded. All too often there is someone who comes along with a misinformed opinion instead of what the facts actually are. I have actually done my research so when someone asks me why I like to buy ADA products or anything else I can give them a real answer with solid reasons. Now I am not just talking about you specifically, this is a response to all these type of comments. I would also like to address rocks and wood being free mentality, last time I checked Barr's wood and rocks ain't free lol. Everything in your life comes from a natural material or source, your glass tank, your plants, your wood stand. I also checked and guess what plants grow in lakes, rivers and swamps, why not go and collect some for your tank? Simple, you want exotic plants not found in your region. Same goes for stones and woods = common sense. I am not asking you to buy ADA rocks or woods, I am just answering your question as to why some people might purchase them. I applaud that you would collect your own, that is great, because then you get to interact with nature, which today is becoming a rarity it seems. 

Tom, that is a nice collection of wood and rocks. However in the US we shouldn't have to rely on private sellers or go to peoples homes to find such things. The average hobbyist should be able to walk into a LFS and find an assortment of quality materials to chose from. This is the case in Asia and Europe. Coincidence they produce more and better scapes than the US? I think not. If every LFS carried it, the price would come down as more material is sourced and bought in bulk.


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## bigstick120 (May 23, 2005)

Many good scapers have come and gone, Luis Navaro down in Texas, wonder where he has been? Ghazanfar Ghori here in DC, both great scapers, Ghaz is just busy with life last I heard.


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## zachawry (May 28, 2013)

plantbrain said:


> Space has less to do with it than you imply. They are just better gardeners in general and have a longer history and reverence for it. 1000+ years, US? Europe? Not so much. Aesthetic pruning methods? Bonsai and other gardening forms? The US is pretty weak and has a small vocabulary for various terms. This is not true for Japan. Yes, they make do with what little space they now have, this is due to the high cost of land on an island. Sort of like living in Manhattan.
> 
> This is independent of aquariums. Plenty of US aquarist live in small cramped spaces as well.


I live in Japan, and this is all true. They just have a much bigger tendency to enjoy making tiny little adjustments on small things/systems. Americans tend to like bigger, flashier things. These are just tendencies, of course, and there are many exceptions. 

For instance, just a few days ago I had a bunch of Japanese people over to my house here, and when they looked at my scape they oohed and ahed, but a couple said "Why are these fish so small? Why not put a big one like an arowana in here?!"


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## KH2PO4 (Jul 18, 2009)

When talking about hardscape availability:hihi:

http://seikasuisoubu.jugem.jp/?eid=297


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## psalm18.2 (Oct 16, 2010)

Could it be that Americans like to do things ourselves? We like DIY. We like exploring nature or fish stores for that perfect piece.
We like planting and pruning our own plants.

I say it's a cultural thing here. We like our own artwork, not someone else's. 

Americans have capitalism. We can utilize so many different sources to create art. There are landscaping businesses, floral businesses, fish stores, artists, internet and TV. We use all of the above to create aquascapes, not one source. It would be harder here for one or two people to overtake the market. To sell out only one brand or line of products excusivly.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

zachawry said:


> I live in Japan, and this is all true. They just have a much bigger tendency to enjoy making tiny little adjustments on small things/systems. Americans tend to like bigger, flashier things. These are just tendencies, of course, and there are many exceptions.
> 
> For instance, just a few days ago I had a bunch of Japanese people over to my house here, and when they looked at my scape they oohed and ahed, but a couple said "Why are these fish so small? Why not put a big one like an arowana in here?!"


Thanks, for the reality check for the USA, I tell many this, but they do not get it. 

Amano made some comments about it in his 1st ADA book. Fish keeping is EASY! after he'd spent a few days working his tail off to make the tank come together for the event in Japan. Aesthetic pruning has long long been a huge part of the culture and skill set for 1000 years. USA? Hardly at all.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

psalm18.2 said:


> Could it be that Americans like to do things ourselves? We like DIY. We like exploring nature or fish stores for that perfect piece.
> We like planting and pruning our own plants.
> 
> I say it's a cultural thing here. We like our own artwork, not someone else's.
> ...


Old saying, "it's good to learn through experience, as long as it is not your own."

I seem to have to go my own way regardless of this advice I have long known, but on higher risk things, or things that cost $$$, I deferred quickly.
Some will commit to this learning through another's experience to the point of slavish behavior, fan boyism. Others still commit, but maintain their own sense of identify and rationality. Some just pick on any/all experience that's not their own(this is often a learning method for some, by arguing it out, they learn the trade offs and the justifications therein). Much of what Amano teaches comes from Bonsai, landscaping methods and philosophy. If you understand those two areas, then you should be able to apply them consistently and well to aquariums.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

zachawry said:


> I live in Japan, and this is all true. They just have a much bigger tendency to enjoy making tiny little adjustments on small things/systems. Americans tend to like bigger, flashier things. These are just tendencies, of course, and there are many exceptions.
> 
> For instance, just a few days ago I had a bunch of Japanese people over to my house here, and when they looked at my scape they oohed and ahed, but a couple said "Why are these fish so small? Why not put a big one like an arowana in here?!"


This to me is very true. The cultural differences are quite large. Most Americans would not consider building an aquarium around the scape or even a reef. It's usually built around the fish and that's why the vast amount of big money is US is still poured into salt water installs. In a fully developed aquascape the fish play a minor role. I've many times compared this to the cultural differences in sports. Americans like the home run or the touchdown, the big play, they don't appreciate soccer as much because many times there isn't a 'big fish' in the game, just the beauty of it.


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## TexasCichlid (Jul 12, 2011)

Green_Flash said:


> Tom, that is a nice collection of wood and rocks. However in the US we shouldn't have to rely on private sellers or go to peoples homes to find such things. The average hobbyist should be able to walk into a LFS and find an assortment of quality materials to chose from. This is the case in Asia and Europe. Coincidence they produce more and better scapes than the US? I think not. If every LFS carried it, the price would come down as more material is sourced and bought in bulk.


I would rather buy from Tom than any LFS I have ever been in. I'd rather buy from almost any hobbyist on these forum before any LFS I have ever been in as well. I don't think it's appropriate to pin a perceived 'lack of quality US aquariums' on the lack of ADA stores.


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## DaveFish (Oct 7, 2011)

MrAlmostWrong said:


> Indeed they have some brilliant scapes. Like I mentioned with Barr, it might just come down to marketing. It makes sense for Amano, Knott, and James (The Green Machine) to continuously push out great looking aquascapes and show them off because then it helps them to sell more goods. The US market seems pretty lean on the beautiful aquascaping front so there hasn't been a need for an individual to push hard with their aquascapes. For example, Finnex does great lighting, Cal Aqua handles lily pipes, filters are all over the place, and we are still waiting on a strong substrate. Amano has whole systems that he sells so it works even more so when he can showcase an aquascape and claim that all his products are the result of them.


 
I don't have anyone in mind. Jeff is good, but he isn't the best Reefer. And my Cichlid tanks are just as good as his as are everyone elses'. I don't agree with everything he does. Like the dead hardwood hardscape tanks. And I don't like Olver's style at all! I would place a dozen Europeans before him. Cal Aqua Labs is actually a Thailand company it is not American.


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## DaveFish (Oct 7, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> I think many of the scapers who do well are more interested and have available hardscaping supplies, many of the FW people in the USA Rarely use reef methods to build rock like structures.
> 
> This combines the rock pieces into larger, more dramatic forms. Long from Vietnam does this a lot.
> 
> ...


having a lot of experience from building and re-building African Cichlid hardscapes, Weekly to monthly, for several years doesn't hurt either. Fulfilling the constant need to rescape to curb African Cichlid aggression.

I would say just the same or more benefit for aquascaping, than reefers, because of the character and different sizes of freshwater limestone/granite when compared to the more uniform bland live rock IMO. 

I would bet the guys that do extreme rockscapes in their aquascapes have a heavy past in African Cichlid tanks more so than reefs. considering both use freshwater rocks. At least that is where I gained my experience with rock work.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Another nice scape from one of the UKAPS guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=pjL5yJPDXzA

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/natural-jurassic-quick-video-p10.28320/


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## Rony11 (Jan 21, 2012)

I've seen beautiful aquascapes on the AquaScaping World forums

http://www.aquascapingworld.com/forums/aquascaping-showcase.7/


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

Bserve said:


> Senske brothers for sure.


Didnt they make the matrix?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

acitydweller said:


> Didnt they make the matrix?


No that was the Wachowski Brothers, although two of the actors had Fish (Laurence Fishburne) and Moss (Carrie-Anne Moss) in their names maybe that's your confusion. :icon_cool


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## KH2PO4 (Jul 18, 2009)

I thought it's Seachem all along. :icon_roll


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

Jeff needs to start his own product line. Then he'll be a household name.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

DaveFish said:


> I would bet the guys that do extreme rockscapes in their aquascapes have a heavy past in African Cichlid tanks more so than reefs. considering both use freshwater rocks. At least that is where I gained my experience with rock work.


No, from something else:

Penjing(Chinese) and Saikei(Japanese)

https://www.google.com/search?q=Pen...MarqyQHSkoDICQ&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=2560&bih=1487

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penjing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saikei

Penjing alone has 14 different styles. 1000+ years old.
They are better at it and frankly have a lot more skill.

Sometimes not being an ADA fan boy and looking at where the skills and interest, quality etc come from, you can learn a lot more.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Three Humble Stones: Sanzon Iwagumi Aquariums - See more at: http://www.okeanosgroup.com/blog/aq...anzon-iwagumi-aquariums/#sthash.z70OGa0s.dpuf


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Martin from Okeanos is awesome conceptually.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> No, from something else:
> 
> Penjing(Chinese) and Saikei(Japanese)
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link to those pictures Tom. As you can see by the amount of time and devotion that goes into creating that beautiful scenery on a 
miniature scale that there is a certain discipline that people from the eastern world have that isn't found here. The people that create these types of Bonsai are amazing to me. The time and devotion not to mention the pure artistic vision is something that is hard to find in the western world.

I have noticed that this year in the nurseries around me that there is a huge new fade for what I guess we call "fairy gardens" which in essence is the same idea as these except there is no scale or thought to the actual concept other than planting random little plants that may or may not stay small after time.

Almost all the arts from the east are things that take someone that can be very devoted and disciplined. Most people on this side of the world are very impatient and want instant gratification. We are a country that suffers from ADD. :bounce:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Well, there is no rush to create a nice looking hardscape or saikei. 
If should be done right, from the build up till you add sediment and the plants.

Bonsai is more a matter of patience. 

Most Nature style ADA aquariums are NOT long term projects by the nature of the plants and general care involved with aquarists, maybe 2 years might be an average lifespan, whereas Bonsai might span several lifetimes with the same tree.

Amano's own tank has been broken down and redone multiple times.

Nothing wrong with this, as the weeds we keep are very different to the rock gardens and the bonsai. What we tend to keep and do is much more ephemeral. But some of the basic designs and methods are the same, or at least should be.

A lot of the Bonsai and Japanese gardens are not novel, they are very old and tried, true and tested, they are long time good examples of aesthetics. Conservative but very good. But, you can still break some rules, and the old saying: if it looks good: it is good.

With my bonsai, I know I can avoid things for sometime, months etc, some things, I cannot, like watering. Aquarium trimming and adjustments, require more time and work. But.........they rarely last for 5 years or more. Bonsai? You killed the tree if it does not last longer than that
As far as scale goes, most of the plants and landscaping is done at the human scale, within the space you have, a place to escape from and think. This can be an aquarium as well. The web has done more damage to what these areas of horticulture are/are not than anything that has promoted myths within our hobby.
And that's saying a lot.


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## Green_Flash (Apr 15, 2012)

TexasCichlid said:


> I would rather buy from Tom than any LFS I have ever been in. I'd rather buy from almost any hobbyist on these forum before any LFS I have ever been in as well. I don't think it's appropriate to pin a perceived 'lack of quality US aquariums' on the lack of ADA stores.


Then, honestly, the LFS you have been to are just not that great. And a shame indeed that we have to rely on online shopping instead. Going to a great LFS is an experience all in itself. Thankfully I have one just like this nearby and I would rather shop there and support a local business a 1000 times over before I would order an item online. (but I do support trading with fellow hobbyist too) And sorry, but yes there is a lack of quality US aquascaped aquariums, perception is reality and one of the key reasons is a broken support structure that fosters such an environment. It also definitely has something to do with the US mentality freshwater tanks are cheap bargain basket setups and that Reef is for all the serious hobbyist. But, I would also like to point out in my experience the one style that even is highly acclaimed by Reefers, is the Nature Aquarium style. That gets even them to drool. Why? It is based on the entire body of work done by Amano and many others in over 20 years showing that it is the gold standard. That is why the iconic Sumida Aquarium asked them to do setups there. And judging by the recent new installs, they have been beaming successes. Here is a funny tid bit though, in a bonus scene showed on a special Japanese program, the Sumida Aquarium Director had them install a marine pipe in addition to freshwater pipes. Amano asked why and the Director said, in case the exhibit is scraped/unpopular. You can imagine how angry and insulted Amano was lol, even the Director had some doubt about the setups before they had even started! There is no such thing as an ADA store, just stores that carry their products and others. 

Everybody has different goals with their tank. Which is 100% perfectly fine to do whatever, but this is a discussion about aquascaping. 



plantbrain said:


> No, from something else:
> 
> Penjing(Chinese) and Saikei(Japanese)
> 
> ...


Yes definitely, the practice of humans arranging stones is not new in any way (Stone Henge anyone? :icon_cool )
When someone sees an Iwagumi, they most likely think about the famous Rock Gardens of Kyoto. That and the term "Seki" which can refer to scholar rocks serve as inspiration. Not to even mention Wabi Sabi. ADA/Amano don't deny this, you can see it when you read their website, products info and AJ ,they clearly state that their inspiration is from Nature itself. However they do deserve credit as the first and being original in applying those techniques in an Aquarium setting. I personally like to think of aquascaping as an artful interpretation of Nature, whether from a distance or up close.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Green_Flash said:


> ..Then, honestly, the LFS you have been to are just not that great. And a shame indeed that we have to rely on online shopping instead. Going to a great LFS is an experience all in itself. Thankfully I have one just like this nearby and I would rather shop there and support a local business a 1000 times over before I would order an item online. (but I do support trading with fellow hobbyist too) And sorry, but yes there is a lack of quality US aquascaped aquariums, perception is reality and one of the key reasons is a broken support structure that fosters such an environment. It also definitely has something to do with the US mentality freshwater tanks are cheap bargain basket setups and that Reef is for all the serious hobbyist. But, I would also like to point out in my experience the one style that even is highly acclaimed by Reefers, is the Nature Aquarium style. That gets even them to drool. Why? It is based on the entire body of work done by Amano and many others in over 20 years showing that it is the gold standard. That is why the iconic Sumida Aquarium asked them to do setups there. And judging by the recent new installs, they have been beaming successes. Here is a funny tid bit though, in a bonus scene showed on a special Japanese program, the Sumida Aquarium Director had them install a marine pipe in addition to freshwater pipes. Amano asked why and the Director said, in case the exhibit is scraped/unpopular. You can imagine how angry and insulted Amano was lol, even the Director had some doubt about the setups before they had even started! There is no such thing as an ADA store, just stores that carry their products and others.
> 
> Everybody has different goals with their tank. Which is 100% perfectly fine to do whatever, but this is a discussion about aquascaping...
> .


This is cultural reality, why does everyone fight it. It's like asking why baseball/football is more popular here, while soccer or should I say futball is more popular elsewhere. 

Most LFS stink big time when it comes to aquascaping material simply because they can't afford to dedicate space to it. There are exceptions, but for the most part they don't make their money there. Why do you think 80% of the floor space in petco is dog and cat supplies. Do you think AFA would survive/thrive everywhere in the U.S.?


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## Green_Flash (Apr 15, 2012)

Hard to say exactly, it is not really a matter of carrying a certain product, many LFS in Japan carry lots of different products, like for shrimp for example, they also have staff who are familiar in all styles and often can provide help with any setup. I do think you are right, it is a cultural difference, and one of the reasons it is not as popular here. Although in the future, it would be nice to see more awareness, right now it remains a very small niche even among aquarium hobbyist.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Like a few said, Takashi Amano and Oliver Knott are much more than people, they are brands. More than a few people who I find are more talented than both where named in this thread. Cliff Hui and other CAU members have impressed me way more than Amano. 


I agree with a lot of what people have posted. I also think that Americans really feel they can only dedicate a certain amount of time to a hobby. Therefore, Americans want things to happen quickly. Patience to Americans is far different than other cultures. Americans are also natural problem creators, rather than problem solvers. That's why we have all this crazy technology in our tanks, everything in our homes need to be automated, etc. We spend all this time creating things so that our lives should be easier, just to get bored and create even more. I don't mean that in a negative way, I just don't think that mentality is necessarily conducive to aquaskaping in particular. 

On the flip side, I am a semi-professional hip hop instrumentalist/producer and find it to be ironic when I talk to Japanese beat makers (not Japanese American). They seem to struggle with the idea of free flowing thought, just letting things out and see where they go. Many tend to want to learn more than they want to create. My most common comments are "just make a lot of music and it will all come naturally" which is followed up by very specific questions on how to do that. Kind of comical at times to try to explain to someone else to not think about things as much, only for them to analyze it. I am not trying to generalize a whole country or culture based off my personal conversations, just comparing and contrasting how different mentalities seem to thrive in different areas of art. Then again, Hip Hop is American born and natural style aquaskaping is Japanese born.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Green_Flash said:


> Hard to say exactly, it is not really a matter of carrying a certain product, many LFS in Japan carry lots of different products, like for shrimp for example, they also have staff who are familiar in all styles and often can provide help with any setup. I do think you are right, it is a cultural difference, and one of the reasons it is not as popular here. Although in the future, it would be nice to see more awareness, right now it remains a very small niche even among aquarium hobbyist.


I agree. But....the USA does not place a high priority upon high quality nice aesthetic stone. Driftwood is another matter interestingly. All aquarist like that. 

This is VERY true when it comes to buying a nice suitable landscaping tree that has been trained, relatively easy to find in Japan, not in the USA. Personally I do not paying 2-3x the cost for a nice tree rather than waiting 10 years to trim and get it right. I'd like to enjoy the tree now, not 10 years from now, I'm getting old. This is not a culture thing, frankly, most of the aesthetics are very common sense and practical. This is often an epiphany for many in Western culture. It's not the myth promoted on the web or in poorly written books. 

There's a straight forward logic to it. Brands, I agree, matter less, but high quality does matter a great deal.

The USA has availability for most of these things. Rock might be the exception and many are not willing or it's too hard logistically to acquire the stones on their own collecting trips.


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## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

ua hua said:


> I have noticed that this year in the nurseries around me that there is a huge new fade for what I guess we call "fairy gardens" which in essence is the same idea as these except there is no scale or thought to the actual concept other than planting random little plants that may or may not stay small after time.


Worked at a garden center this summer and this was definitely the new, big thing...but I agree, there isn't much "art" to it. I think they are tacky.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jpappy789 said:


> I think they are tacky.



The USA is king when it comes to that, from the country that gave use plastic plants and bubbling skeletons and the Treasure chest that opens and closes.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> The USA is king when it comes to that, from the country that gave use plastic plants and bubbling skeletons and the Treasure chest that opens and closes.


So what happens in Japan when a 3 year old wants an aquarium? Do they ask mommy and daddy for a carpet of HC or UG?


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## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> So what happens in Japan when a 3 year old wants an aquarium? Do they ask mommy and daddy for a carpet of HC or UG?


Compromise? Carpet of HC/UG with a spongebob pineapple in the middle :biggrin:


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## DaveFish (Oct 7, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> No, from something else:
> 
> Penjing(Chinese) and Saikei(Japanese)
> 
> ...


?? You referenced a different subject than you mentioned. You were saying that "Reefers are more inclined to do good rock hardscapes in their aquascaping." I would say serious African Cichlid keepers are better than Reefers. I wasn't comparing this to ancient asian art but reefers in general. African hardscapes are more similar to aquascapes than reef live rock IMO and a better reference. I guess the best reference is ancient asian art.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jpappy789 said:


> Compromise? Carpet of HC/UG with a spongebob pineapple in the middle :biggrin:


Isn't that an Oliver Knott scape. :icon_bigg


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

houseofcards said:


> Isn't that an Oliver Knott scape. :icon_bigg


That would be my first guess.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

DaveFish said:


> ?? You referenced a different subject than you mentioned. You were saying that "Reefers are more inclined to do good rock hardscapes in their aquascaping." I would say serious African Cichlid keepers are better than Reefers. I wasn't comparing this to ancient asian art but reefers in general. African hardscapes are more similar to aquascapes than reef live rock IMO and a better reference. I guess the best reference is ancient asian art.


Wha?

I'm talking the differences between Asian scaping with hardscape vs the USA rift cichlid and Reef folks, yes, I agree, the rift folks are much better than most of the Reef folks I've seen.

Look at the Winning ADA contest tank this year, not a damn plant, just rock. And they call it a planted tank contest Be a nice Rift cichlid tank though. But has no place in a plant tank contest. 
Excellent hardscape etc, but still, not a plant in it. 

How hard is keeping and the level of horticulture there? Will the stone die? I also saw a lack of fish in the no1# scape. While rock gardens at various scales is an art, it's not a planted tank art, you need plants to call it that.

It's like entering a Bonsai competition with rock and a pot, no tree.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

houseofcards said:


> So what happens in Japan when a 3 year old wants an aquarium? Do they ask mommy and daddy for a carpet of HC or UG?


Hello Kitty


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## Kai808 (Jul 19, 2011)

Hey Green_flash, I can't believe you didn't even mention Hawaii's own Jojo (aka Manini). It's too bad he never enters these contest... too busy with the store and taking care of clients scapes. 

Let me just post the link to the AGA contest winners, just in case some people haven't seen it.

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/



plantbrain said:


> Hello Kitty


Haha! I have a few Hello Kitty toys from Happy meals that would look good in a tank with a fissidens wig. Hmmm, maybe I can be Oliver Knott of the pacific.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> ...
> Look at the Winning ADA contest tank this year, not a damn plant, just rock. And they call it a planted tank contest Be a nice Rift cichlid tank though. But has no place in a plant tank contest.
> Excellent hardscape etc, but still, not a plant in it...
> ..


Do you have a link to the winning tank. Haven't seen it - thanks!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Kai808 said:


> Haha! I have a few Hello Kitty toys from Happy meals that would look good in a tank with a fissidens wig. Hmmm, maybe I can be Oliver Knott of the pacific.


Use local theme, Tiki bars, the bobble head surfer girl, red lobster tourist, maybe a shirt or flip flops. Or a pineapple. Less tacky: Lava rock, Koa driftwood, Ohia, moss, etc.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

houseofcards said:


> Do you have a link to the winning tank. Haven't seen it - thanks!


No, saw it on the facebook pages of some fellow entrants. 

http://www.aquabird.com.vn/

Very well done.

A fair no# of Brasil and Viet winners this year in the upper rankings.

Not a fish or plant in the scape. Nice hardscape, Suiseki totally. All just rock, sand, I think there might be a bit of wood mixed in, the pic is rather dark.

The tank would have gotten a zero rank from me in any planted contest. High marks for the stone, but lacking everything else that makes an aquarium.

Long's warped tank was far better and had plants/fish and made you do a double take. Few tanks make you do that.

Now, this no1 tank is classic and nice but not in aquarium, rather, a suiseki display. 

It would be like me placing my White or Black pine into an aquarium.
Sorry, there's no way to justify this.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Thanks for the link. 

I don't use Facebook so I don't think I can see it. But really no plants, not even moss?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

houseofcards said:


> Thanks for the link.
> 
> I don't use Facebook so I don't think I can see it. But really no plants, not even moss?


I cannot see any fish and zero plants.

The scape is nice etc, suiseki.....but.........the contest says

The International *Aquatic Plants* Layout Contest.

That is an insurmountable problem for me I see no way around. 
I had issues with the contest in the past, but that's sort of the stake through the heart. 

Davefish ought to enter rift tanks and their rock scapes from the cichlid side.
Given the placement of this year's, we would expect numerous top 100 placements from the USA.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> I cannot see any fish and zero plants.
> 
> The scape is nice etc, suiseki.....but.........the contest says
> 
> ...


LOL, USA cracks Top 100 with no plants!

Maybe there's some moss tucked in some rock crevices just for requirement of 'Aquatic Plants'


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## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

Navigating a Vietnamese site is very difficult. I ended up Facebook creeping the winner and found what I think was the winning "scape"...I too am very disappointed if that's what ended up getting first. I mean, it looks cool but there's no plants.

I was wondering which contest the tank was from, I looked at the 2012 AGA and was very confused since I found no winning scape without plants.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

OK I found the tank. Couple of things that I'm not sure about in regards to NO plants. The pic that I found is B/W so it's hard to tell if there is moss in there. I might actually see some in the foreground area. 

Second thing that might be just a hardscape type pic and/or B/W on purpose since you're not really supposed to show the final product tell after the IAPLC Rewards Party.


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## CPDzeke (Jan 4, 2013)

Can someone post a pic/link to a pic of this un-planted tank?


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## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

That's a good point, there are some color pics but those may have been from before as the hardscape looks to have been rearranged before the pics were submitted. I hope there are plants, otherwise that's just wrong.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

houseofcards said:


> OK I found the tank. Couple of things that I'm not sure about in regards to NO plants. The pic that I found is B/W so it's hard to tell if there is moss in there. I might actually see some in the foreground area.
> 
> Second thing that might be just a hardscape type pic and/or B/W on purpose since you're not really supposed to show the final product tell after the IAPLC Rewards Party.


I've seen dozens of high ranking tanks already after they released the winners, they can post their tanks on FB. 

I'm curious if that is the final no1# ranked tank myself, but from the looks of it, it seems legit. No plants, I do see a couple of pieces of driftwood added, but they appear as an afterthought.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

The lack of Google search here is disheartening. Here the picture - 










No Fish? No Plants? ... 

It's just a picture that has been black out. I'm thinking ADA would rather have the traffic and attention gear towards their site, their brand, their company. Especially for the number rated tank. Congratulations to Vietnam, home of multiple top place finishes. 


Truong Thinh Ngo
Nguyen Tien Dung
Long Tran Hoang

George Farmer
Mark Evans
Viktor Lantos

Oliver Knott


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Actually increase your screen size and I believe you see alot more moss on and between the rocks. Again the black pic is to keep things kinda 'secret' until the unveiling at the party. Of course some don't obey this rule, but other's especially the top ranked (1-12) usually do.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

^ Completely right, the top tanks are what brings in the exposure. It's a great business model as it does both promotion and advertising. 

The actual party is on Sept 28th, I hope you guys realize they really don't want the final works to be shown. Especially the top rank tanks. 

But.... this is the internet .... 

I did some more "colour corrections"....

I made another thread to keep it cleaner as this is probably not what the OP intended, no hi-jack-er-y.


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## tropicalmackdaddy (Mar 7, 2012)

When can we see the pictures of the all the entries?


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## junglefowl (Oct 30, 2012)

tropicalmackdaddy said:


> When can we see the pictures of the all the entries?


Some of the scapes that participated this year except for the top ranks that still keep in secret
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.569275636470647.1073741839.394160683982144&type=3


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## tropicalmackdaddy (Mar 7, 2012)

junglefowl said:


> Some of the scapes that participated this year except for the top ranks that still keep in secret
> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.569275636470647.1073741839.394160683982144&type=3


Thank you


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

houseofcards said:


> Actually increase your screen size and I believe you see alot more moss on and between the rocks. Again the black pic is to keep things kinda 'secret' until the unveiling at the party. Of course some don't obey this rule, but other's especially the top ranked (1-12) usually do.


Why show the hardscape then?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> Why show the hardscape then?


I'm pretty sure IAPLC participants I told at some point not to post their 'finished' work on the internet. Uncompleted work, like hardscape is acceptable to show.


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