# Too little iron/phosphate cause BBA?? Found problem??



## erijnal (Jun 19, 2006)

I remember reading somewhere that high iron levels do contribute to algae growth. I'm can't say if it was addressing a specific type of algae though

Yeah, you probably have BBA. A lot of people have said that their BBA issues went away once they got their CO2 up and steady (around 30 ppm most likely). Which goes to say that BBA issues usually pop up because of unsteady CO2 levels.

In the meantime, it'd probably be a good idea to prune any leaves that are overly infested with the algae, and spot-treat with Excel or Hydrogen peroxide.

Hope that helps


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## PRESTON4479 (Mar 22, 2007)

Thanks for the response. I am in the process of getting my co2 levels straight. I recently switched from a rhinox diffuser to a home made reactor and it seemed like it threw things off just a little bit. But I asked about iron because this seemed to start when I began dosing iron along with plantex csm+b. I have since stopped dosing iron and turned the co2 up. I am just hoping now that this will take care of it and I won't have a complete outbreak.

Thanks for responding. I didn't think I was going to get a response.

Brian


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## erijnal (Jun 19, 2006)

No problem Brian. Also, just out of curiosity, how often were you dosing iron and what substrate do you have?

Some substrates are already rich in iron, so dosing iron might not have been necessary. That'd certainly back up the possibility of an algae outbreak as a result of excess iron (even though methods such as EI rely on excess of everything haha)


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## PRESTON4479 (Mar 22, 2007)

erijnal said:


> No problem Brian. Also, just out of curiosity, how often were you dosing iron and what substrate do you have?
> 
> Some substrates are already rich in iron, so dosing iron might not have been necessary. That'd certainly back up the possibility of an algae outbreak as a result of excess iron


I am no longer dosing the iron. Just the plantex csm+b 3 times a week. Also I am using a mix of flourite with regular gravel.

Brian


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## erijnal (Jun 19, 2006)

Ooh, fluorite has crazy iron for rooted plants


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## Nbot (Apr 15, 2007)

This nice site seems to say that iron related to algae is an outdated theory:

http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm


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## PRESTON4479 (Mar 22, 2007)

Nbot said:


> This nice site seems to say that iron related to algae is an outdated theory:
> 
> http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm


Nice link. Thanks.

I am definitely dealing with BBA and I also think some GSA. One cause listed for both is low co2.

Brian


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

PRESTON4479 said:


> I am no longer dosing the iron. Just the plantex csm+b 3 times a week. Also I am using a mix of flourite with regular gravel.
> 
> Brian


isn't there iron in csm+b and flourite?
Maybe you mean you don't need to add extra iron?

And I'm not sure about the iron & algae issue. I need to read good scientific reports and not from uncited sources.


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## PRESTON4479 (Mar 22, 2007)

mistergreen said:


> isn't there iron in csm+b and flourite?
> Maybe you mean you don't need to add extra iron?


Correct. I was adding chelated iron on top of plantex and the flourite gravel that was in the tank.



mistergreen said:


> And I'm not sure about the iron & algae issue. I need to read good scientific reports and not from uncited sources.


Thanks for your input

Brian


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## PRESTON4479 (Mar 22, 2007)

OK,

I believe my co2 levels to be 30+ppm and the BBA continues to spread. I have been reading about treatment and alot of people seem to have had success treating with excel. My only thing is that I don't want to just kill it off without knowing why I got it in the first place and correcting the problem. I am now leaning towards something being wrong with my EI dosing. I have read that low iron and/or low phosphates could contribute to what I am dealing with. One thing that I think points me to low phosphates is the GSA I have also. So my question is:

Is it possible that the GSA along with the BBA is a clear sign of low phosphates?

I am currently dosing 1/8tsp of KH2PO4 3x a week in a heavily planted 55g. Should I try to increase that to 1/4tsp 3x a week?

FYI, I also read that nitrates play a part in this. I am dosing 1/2tsp 3x a week.

Any advice please,

Brian


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

oh my, I just saw your specs.. you have close to 5wpg.... Try just 2.5-3wpG.
umm. I think that could be a problem... Your PO4 looks fine.. You can do a PO4 test on if you want.


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## PRESTON4479 (Mar 22, 2007)

mistergreen said:


> oh my, I just saw your specs.. you have close to 5wpg.... Try just 2.5-3wpG.
> umm. I think that could be a problem... Your PO4 looks fine.. You can do a PO4 test on if you want.


I only run the full 260 watts for about a 3 hour mid day burst. The rest of the time I only run 130 watts.

10am-1:30pm= 130 watts
1:30pm-4:30pm= 260 watts
4:30pm-8pm= 130 watts

Brian


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## medicineman (Sep 28, 2005)

@Brian,

BBA outbreak usually started off as CO2 problem in an injected tank.

There is one easy method I would like you to try out : Micro bubble.

An easy way to set it up is to get a very small airstone or ceramic diffuser into the intake of a powerhead. Average powerhead have this safety retainer before the propeller so you do not have to worry if the whole airstone would get sucked in and ruin the pump. Run your CO2 line to this powerhead and what you will get is micro bubbles, mist-like that will be floating around your tank.

This method does not work in instant, but will be doing it slow and steady. Within a course of 2-3 weeks I have seen BBA gone without any harm done to plants or fish, in fact they are getting better to the improved CO2 distribution. I have tried this even without any additional CO2 into the tank, simply switching route does the job.


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## PRESTON4479 (Mar 22, 2007)

medicineman said:


> @Brian,
> 
> BBA outbreak usually started off as CO2 problem in an injected tank.



So you think I may have actually fixed the problem already and now I just need to get rid of the BBA that is in the tank?

Brian


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## PRESTON4479 (Mar 22, 2007)

I just decided to get my API phosphate test kit out and test my phosphate levels. According to the results it is 10+ppm in the tank and .5ppm coming from the faucet. 

Shouldn't I be trying to keep it around 1-2 ppm?

Also can phosphate levels this high promote algae growth?

Is it possible I can eliminate dosing phosphates all together?

FYI- I used to use Kent pro plant and Kent freshwater plant and never had algae problems before. I decided today to take a look at the ingredients on both bottles and noticed that they say "contains no phosphates for unwanted algae growth".

Brian


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## PRESTON4479 (Mar 22, 2007)

Now I have tested my nitrates and found them to only be 5ppm. I didn't think about testing my nitrates because for the longest time they were always so high. So I didn't think there would be a shortage of nitrates. I guess should you never assume and this is the reason for test kits in the first place.:icon_roll 

Target should be around 10-30ppm for nitrates, correct?

Not enough nitrates would be the reason my phosphates are so high, correct?

Currently dosing 1/2tsp of KNO3 3x a week. Do you think I should try increasing it to 3/4tsp and see what happens?

Brian


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

the simplest thing to do now is remove the algae.
and do a 50% water change right away.

they'll bring your PO4 to 5ppm. And dose KNO3 till it's 10-20ppm. What's your CO2? Do you have a drop checker?

Dosing is unique from person to person depending on their tap water & tank & fish load & lights & CO2...

I personally dose 1/8 a teaspon of KHPO4 & 1/4 KNO3 only once a week. And 10ml of a mixture of K&Mg&Ca&micros everyday.

You gotta find what's right for you.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

All this *assumes* that the Test kits are actually accurate:fish: 

They often are off by a fair amount.
Lamotte are good and higher accuracy IME.
They cost more, but you do get what you pay for. You can try and calibrate the cheapo test kits, Seachem is on eof the better test kit lines.
I still hassle Greg about them, but for the $, they are worth it, does not mean they are that accurate, a nice color scale helps, lamotte has one.

BBA is not induced nor reduced by Fe, NO3 or PO4.
Steve Dixon and I did a rather exhaustive method to address this for several months, actually about 2-3 years total.

It's CO2.

Does not mean adding high CO2 later will kill the BBA that's there, just stop new growth.

You stop new growth, then you can prune your way out of any BBA issue.
So focus heavily on CO2, dose well for the nutrients and do so consistently.
Watch plant growth, it should be pretty intense if the CO2 is high, nutrients high and the light is high as well.

If not, then you can rule out nutrient via water change and dosing thereafter, lights are easy, this just leaves CO2.
Do not go crazy and turn CO2 3x higher and gas the fish, be careful with it, slowly adjust and watch.

Many, often experienced folks, fail to feness their CO2. Then blame other things.........

Everyone has at least a few times if they have been in the hobby for a few years. 

BBA is good indicator that the CO2 has been poor or you have not been adding enough early in the day etc.

Make sure you have good current, some surface rippling but never surface breaking is a good description.

This prevents low O2 and higher CO2.
You lose a little CO2, but adding more is easy.

You also get good CO2 mixing in the tank.
You might try the CO2 mist method also.

Keeping things pruned consistently also helps a lot.
Plants can 2-3x their biomass in a pruning cycle, so right after a pruning things might pearl well, then taper off as they grow in. Some plants are more CO2 greedy and remove it before other species have a chance to get their share also.

For BBA:
CO2,CO2 and CO2.
Excel helps(full dose 5mls per 10 gallon, maybe 7mls) and can added daily for 3 days or so after water changes, then do another water after 3 days and repeat.
Prune off the BBA, scrape every bit off non living things.
Add some SAE's

You do all that and are careful, in 2-3 weeks, the tank should be turned around and in a month or so, things should be back to normal with a little patience.

The key to all algae control really is good stable plant growth.
So grow the plants and the rest is not an issue so much.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## PRESTON4479 (Mar 22, 2007)

Thanks for the advice everyone!

Tom,

You didn't mention anything about the GSA I have also. Do you believe that to be co2 related?

Also even though the drop checker is reading green (30ppm) co2 is still the problem?

Can drop checkers not be trusted either?

Brian


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## PRESTON4479 (Mar 22, 2007)

mistergreen said:


> they'll bring your PO4 to 5ppm. And dose KNO3 till it's 10-20ppm. What's your CO2? Do you have a drop checker?


Assuming the test kit is correct. My PO4 from the faucet is .5ppm. Is that what you mean. 

Yes I do have a drop checker and it shows green (30ppm). Thats why I thought co2 was not a problem any longer. Since this has started I did turn the co2 up but was afraid to go any further with it because the drop checker is starting to go light green.

Brian


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

put new reagent in the drop checker & see if you get the same result..

GSA appears when you have too much light too but everybody get those.


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> BBA is good indicator that the CO2 has been poor or you have not been adding enough early in the day etc.


Tom, thanks for this great write up, and is exactly what I experienced in my 125. My one question is to the line above. I'm assuming that it's directed to the people who turn their CO2 off with or before their lights. If that is the case, how much would you recommend before the lights on/off should the co2 be turned on/off? 
Or do you feel 24/7 is better since CO2 is relatively cheap?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

PRESTON4479 said:


> Thanks for the advice everyone!
> 
> Tom,
> 
> ...


If you are adding a fair amount of PO4, then most likely, some fenessing(adding more) with PO4 can typically rid GSA if you are good with CO2.

I consider GSA a good indicator of fish tank health in non planted systems.
In planted systems, the GSA tends to be related to low PO4 and low CO2, this alga has 2 causes that are inducible(there may be more than one cause for any alga).

I try not to speculate with what I do not know, only what I have tested and do know a fair amount about.

Some folks add CO2 24/7.
In most cases...this is fine.

Even if it's a bit "light". Why?
As you suggest, there's plenty at the on set of the day , that is the most critical part of the day for plants, they gobble CO2 up for the first few hours and tend to be most aggressive at that time.

They have the light, which triggers the formation of a reducing compounds and ATP, then that triggers CO2 demand and the plant assimilates the CO2 using these reducing compounds to reduce the CO2 into sugar.
After/during that, the plant needs to "decorate" the reduced Carbon frame works with PO4 and make N based structures/proteins and trace metals, etc.

I add lots of CO2 right away or about 30-60min prior to having the lights come on. ADA suggest low light initially(thus low CO2 demand) for several hours(until the CO2 accumulates and builds up), then high light for a short burst, then shutting off the CO2 near the time of the end of the light cycle.

ADA nor myself suggest adding CO2 at night, it does no good to the fish, they do not need CO2 at night and our own failings with CO2 should not be a reason to gas them at night when the O2 levels tend to be the lowest as well.

CO2 is about O2 as well if you are concerned about fish.

Well, applied to fish respiration rates, more CO2 is certainly a bad thing.
But the trade off is more plant growth, just like adding more NO3 , K+, and other nutrients.

The real question here is do you really need to have CO2 at night?
the answer is a resounding "No!". 

Some see no need because there fish are fine, I make no argument there either. But to tweak things more so for the fish and for the plants, you can add more CO2 during the times of the day you need the CO2 and place less stress on the fish later at night.

This allows more CO2 and thereby plant growth during the day vs 24/7 methods.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

Thanks for the writeup Tom.
I was having algae issues, and tried something new... Lower stable CO2 levels, running them 24\7. 
Lesson learned, It didn't work for me.


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## PRESTON4479 (Mar 22, 2007)

I would like to thank you also Tom for the info. 

I have been slowly making adjustments to the time my co2 comes back on in the morning because I did not realize you want the co2 at or as close to 30ppm when lights come on. But it does make sense. At first my co2 was coming on the same time as the lights and now the co2 is set to come on one hour before my lights. This seems to have been getting the levels where they need to be before lights come back on.

Maybe I should try cleaning it up really well at this point and see if it grows back.

Tom, do you think I should try to shorten my mid-day burst of 260watts from 3 hours to maybe 2 or 2 1/2 hours? 

Also it doesn't sound like you would recommend to stop dosing the PO4. So should I just try increasing the nitrates from 1/2tsp to 3/4tsp 3x a week?

Thanks---Brian


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

There is no need to increase NO3, you should have plenty no matter what light level you have.

Try 130w total at any one timer, run the fronts for 4.5 hours, then the rear's for 4.5 hours.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## PRESTON4479 (Mar 22, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> There is no need to increase NO3, you should have plenty no matter what light level you have.
> 
> Try 130w total at any one timer, run the fronts for 4.5 hours, then the rear's for 4.5 hours.
> 
> ...



Ok, I was thinking to increase the nitrates because when I tested them yesterday they were only at 5ppm and my PO4 was at 10+ppm.

Thanks for the advice Tom.

Brian


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