# Karackle's guppy/endler experiment RIP - taken down in preparation for moving



## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

you will need to wait like 6 months untill you know that the females no longer have sorted sperm... I would just use virgin female fry to start this experiment. 

I would not recommended selling these to a LFS you either need to keep them or not do this. But thats just my opinion.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Hmm 6 month....well I've had them for about 2-3, so another 3-4 will put me right around when I'll be getting less busy so that should be good timing....I do have some virgin female endlers though so I could start with them. 

May I ask why you think I shouldn't give them to the LFS?


----------



## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

Because people will buy them and not realize that they are hybrids. In this case it is not a big risk, but I would just feed anyones I didnt want to another fish.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Ah I see your point, I'd make sure the LFS knew they were hybrids, or just give them as feeders since by the time I knew whether they were specimens I wanted to keep they'd probably be big enough to survive in my community tanks. Thanks for the input! 

Would still love some input on the raising / separating questions too


----------



## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

here is how i raise fry from my pigmy guppies:
-place guppies of both genders in my community tank along with all kinds of fish like rams, rainbows, tetras, danios, SAE, etc.
-feed all the fish
-keep feeding
-notice the female went from really fat to skinny
-notice fry
-feed fish as normal and see fry grab food as it snags in the hornwort
-see fry grow and start to swim around un-afraid
-see fry develop into their genders
-see the 2nd generation make the 3rd generation, all in the 20L

livebearers are not fish that need to be bred. the just need to be allowed to breed themselves.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks for the input, the thing is though, I've had females drop fry in my 20g and I've only ever had 1 figure out how to hide well enough that he made it to adulthood. I feed live food about once a week so I think my fish have learned that small swimming things are fair game or something, not sure, either way guppy fry don't tend to survive in my community tank. Also, since I want to try and hybrid the guppies and endlers, i want to be able to keep everyone separated, I want to know who the parents are and see which crosses make the coolest looking babies. That is why I'm wondering whether one of those net breeder things (like this) is a good way to do that, or if I should find a spot for a fry raising tank. 

Also....pygmy guppies?! sounds cool!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 17, 2008)

Here is what can be done. 
http://members.cox.net/newcomb1/elbguppymix.html

If your goal is colorful females, I suggest you spend some time at the guppy breeding sites. A LOT of work has been done on this already. Since space is at a premium for you, you might be further ahead to follow up on somebody elses work.

Good luck.


----------



## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

Karackle said:


> Thanks for the input, the thing is though, I've had females drop fry in my 20g and I've only ever had 1 figure out how to hide well enough that he made it to adulthood. I feed live food about once a week so I think my fish have learned that small swimming things are fair game or something, not sure, either way guppy fry don't tend to survive in my community tank. Also, since I want to try and hybrid the guppies and endlers, i want to be able to keep everyone separated, I want to know who the parents are and see which crosses make the coolest looking babies. That is why I'm wondering whether one of those net breeder things (like this) is a good way to do that, or if I should find a spot for a fry raising tank.
> 
> Also....pygmy guppies?! sounds cool!


hmm, that complicates things. i feed live food only a few times a year, and then its brine shrimp which looks nothing like a fish fry. 
see, if fry are confined to smaller quaters, they grow much slower. and if they are grouped together, the grow even slower. when i had way too many fry once, i put the female in a breeding cage for a few hours while she was dropping her fry, and then raised them in a 2.5 gallon tank. but they grew much slower then the 4 siblings that were dropped inside the tank and grew up in the 20L. you wont be able to raise 50 fry in a pint of water. 
i reccomend keeping the endlers and guppies in your community, and setting up a nano (like 5 gallons) with a small filter with some kind of prefilter so the fry arent sucked in, and putting the females in that after they are really pregnant until they drop their fry. maybe put a breeding trap in there if the female tries eating the fry, so she cant get to the older fry. but id say you can only have 2 batches of fry in there at a time maximum.

yeah, i had an eclipse 6 so i could only keep small fish. so i mixed feeders and fancies, and then selectively sold the largest, drabbest guppies. now they are all tiny and colorful (and come in grey, black-blue, and orange). took the past 4 years though... but i wasnt really trying, just giving away the bad ones.


----------



## blissskr (Oct 9, 2007)

If your going to do this you should get another tank to grow fry. You could get away with a ten but a 20L would be better. Fry grow fast when you feed good food multiple times a day bbs works wonders along with a quality flake. The water conditions in your fry tank need to be optimal daily small water changes of about 10-15% are good and Id recommend a bare bottomed tank. As soon as the fry can be sexed anywhere from 3/4 weeks seperate the males and females as soon as possible. This way your females can put food/energy to growth versus being pregnant which will give you bigger drops when you do breed them. I think you'll have fun and see some nice looking fish as the hybrids are usually stunning looking when you get a good combo good luck.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

dbosman - thanks for the link! I'll have to peruse it thoroughly, and I'll take a look into some of the guppy breeding forums as well. 

@[email protected] - Thanks, I guess trying to raise the fry in one of those net breeders would be similar to raising them in a pint of water....just with better water conditions. I'll take a look at the available space again (and my wallet :tongue to see if I can fit a 5 or 10g growout tank somewhere. 

blisskr - thanks for the input, sounds good! I guess I will have to make space for a growout tank somewhere if I'm gonna try this, even if it's just for fun. And I think separating the females from the males as soon as they're discernable from one another is a good idea to keep the females healthy. 

Thanks for the input everyone! 

In other news...the female that was temporarily in holding in my 30g while I was waiting to make sure there was no more fungus in my 20g dropped her fry today, and some of them are swimming around and hiding in some pieces of of broken of Wisteria. I'm guessing that the Zebra danios and maybe the other guppies got some of them because I only saw about 5 or 6 still swimming around, but they've been doing a good job of hiding and they ate some food! So I might use virgin females from her (she was preggo when I brought her home) as my guppy breeding females. :biggrin:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

So far I've still got at least 6 baby guppies  might try to catch them and get them separated later today or tomorrow so I can continue to keep my males and females separated til i'm ready to breed them purposely!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

When I separated the guppy babies I found I actually had 10! :biggrin: I can't discern the males from the females yet, but I can see some color starting to show on some of them, if I had to guess i'd say they're gonna be the males but it's too early to tell yet.  

Another question: when I set up matings, should I put say, 2 male guppies with 3-5 female endlers? Should I do one and one? or 1 male guppy to 2-3 female endlers? If I put more than 1 male in with the females, will the babies only come from the more dominant male? 

Thanks in advance!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 17, 2008)

Genetics of guppies is a well studied science. Every question you have asked is answered at the guppy breeding sites. Google guppy breeding and you will get 67,000 plus hits. Guppy genetics turns up almost 63,000 hits. 

I do understand what you want. 
I'm in the process of crossing wild type Endler males with virgin female red tail guppies. 

I keep P class wild type Endlers. That's what got me started. I'm giving those away for local pickup near East Lansing MI. I'm moving up to N class soon.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks dbos, I've been looking at a lot of guppy breeding sites, but I figured I'd consult here to see if I could get a quick answer to the how many males vs. females to put together though :tongue:


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

How about just doing it for fun and not worrying about selling anything to LFS or getting too caught up in the details. Do what you want and enjoy yourself.

If you're wanting to be sure you can identify the male and female that produced the fry, then you'll have to do a one on one. Trust me, they'll do it no matter how many you put together and one on one will work just fine.

As far as fry surviving in your community tank, you have to be sure to give the fry lots of hiding places. Floating plants for the surface and low grasses, mosses or what have you for the bottom. And then plenty of plant mass in the middle.

Don't worry about feeding them because they'll nibble on algae on the plants and find the tiny pieces of food that other fish miss.

A fun way to maybe try it is to keep your males and females separated (at least separate the breeding females). When you're ready, put the male and female you want to breed together so they can do their thing. Then put each fish back in their tanks. Let the female drop her fry in the community tank and allow the fry to grow up on its own (with lots of hiding places given). Some fry won't make it, but some fry will. If you like the results, then stick with the same mix. If not, try a different mix. Of course, given that you're probably not starting out with pure strains of guppies or endlers, you'll probably get a variety, but you should get some that come out the same.

If you find something you really like, then go for a second generation. And on and on and on.

If you really enjoy it, you'll naturally gravitate to the guppy breeding sites and learn all the details. If not, then you'll just have fun dabbling in it for your own hobby. Heck, just letting different guppies and endlers mate on their own can come up with some fun colors and patterns which you can then pick out and try to replicate.

Some people breed towards a specific goal in mind. They want a certain color, pattern, body and tail shape, and all. For me, I like the surprise of having no idea what will come from the mix. Everyone's different. Just do what you enjoy in whatever manner you enjoy it.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Hey Vicki, thanks for the input! I'm definitely just doing this for fun, so I guess you're right I don't really need to know which parents are which, and I guess I'd probably be able to tell based on what the babies look like if more than one male contributed :tongue: 

I do actually already have the males and females separated so I at least know that I'm not just getting endler/endler or guppy/guppy crosses. Aside from that, I'm just mostly curious to see what happens and now that I think about it anyway, I wouldn't neccessarily know which female endler was which unless I kept them in a separate tank the whole month until the fry are dropped, but i think the females would do better and drop healthier fry if I keep them in my well established tanks until they're ready to drop their fry and then I'll separate them to drop their fry. The females are in my 20g where i've only ever had 1 fry survive, even when I had a huge wisteria forest, so I'll probably have to separate them to get any surviving fry, but I figure it's easier to raise fry in a small tank so that should be ok


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I raised a bunch in a 2.5g tank. As soon as one got large enough for me to determine its gender, I moved it either my 20L or 75g. They don't have to get very big before the adult fish no longer see them as food.

Also an interesting tidbit... Female guppies will eat their own fry even as they're dropping, but female endlers don't!

I also found that my guppy fry was much smaller than my endler fry. Don't know if it's just my particular ones (I just have one female endler) or if that's across the board.

All of my guppy/endler hybrids were colored, including all females. However, the endler coloring was very obvious on a couple of the males (actually quite pretty). Actually, now that I'm thinking of it, maybe I'll put those males in with the females to see what the next generation will be!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

I have an extra/quarantine tank that's approximately the same size as a 2.5g (it's a plastic critter keeper but I measured the sides and compared and it's about the same) so that should be perfect! I'll let you know if I see a size difference between first dropped endler vs. guppy fry. My first batch a fry were pure guppies from the group tank at the store, so i should have a good comparison base! I have 3 different and very pretty colored guppy males and I can't wait to see how they look when crossed with the endler females! I think they'll be gorgeous. Especially the magenta male I have, i think those babies should be stunning! 

Well if you do do a second generation cross with your hybrids you'll definitely have to keep us posted as to what they look like! I'd love to see pics of the first generation if you can get them too :biggrin:

Oh and one more question for you Vicki, what did you use for filtration in the guppy baby tank?


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I used an Azoo nano filter. Just put pantihose or something over the intake so it can't suck in the fry.

Guess what I accidently found last night? I have a little fry in my tank! I had thought the females had been separated from the males long enough to stop dropping fry, but I guess not!

I can't find it today so it's hiding pretty well. Some of the adult guppies checked it out last night, but didn't try to eat it. So it's probably a couple of weeks old. I'd love to see it in the light so I can see if it has any colors or markings to tell me if it's from a guppy or the female endler I have.

When I get this move done and have everything settled back in, I'll try to take some pics. I'd like the pics just for my records anyway. The ones I have in mind are really pretty and quite different from what I've seen before. I think you'll enjoy them!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

heehee i hope you find the guppy again (i know that's repeating myself, but i feel bad I hijacked bra_van's thread so i figured i'd move the convo over to this one that I started :tongue It'll also be fun to see whether it's a guppy or endler baby  It's definitely understandable to wait to take the pictures until after you get moved and settled in! But I'll be eagerly waiting for them when you have time to take them! heehee :biggrin: 

Right now i have an air-pump powered corner filter for the tank, perhaps i'll upgrade to a nano HOB, they're cheap and easy to come by! Not sure how I'll put it on the critter keeper though unless I just go with no top....are guppies big jumpers? I know you said you keep yours in a 2.5 and those come with a solid glass piece for the top, so do you just leave yours open topped? I might have plexi or screen i can use to whip up a top i think....or see if I can find a cheap small tank on CL! heehee


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I'm repeating myself, too, as I just replies about the little guppy/endler fry in the other thread! Oh, well.

Guppies are not jumpers. I was going to cut the glass lid to make it into a miniature version of the normal lids, but never did it. So the lid sits on top with a little bit sticking out in front.


----------



## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

Karackle said:


> dbosman - I'll take a look at the available space again (and my wallet :tongue to see if I can fit a 5 or 10g growout tank somewhere.


Wal-Mart sells 10gal bare glass tanks for $9.99. They usually get three to
four of them every time they restock but they sell out fast. I buy three at
a time for grow-outs, qt's, and for people needing a fast tank.

- Brad


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks for the suggestion! I've been trying to figure out where I could fit a 10g (since they're cheaper than 5.5s or even 2.5s if i recall) but I just don't have the space for it unfortunately. I'm thinking I could set up a pair (one for males one for females) of large, 5.5gish sized, plastic critter keepers on the shelf under my 30g or something like that though. It's not a huge problem yet with just 10 babies, but once i have more i'll need to figure out something. Perhaps on the bottom most shelf of my emtpy-ish bookshelves I could find room for some larger sized tanks.....we'll see, i'll figure somehting out!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Just a quick update, the black neon and the glowlight tetra that had been inhabiting my QT for the past few weeks were finally able to get replaced into their respective homes, so I was able to move the guppies from the breeder net i got to house them temporarily into the 2.5g QT tank. At the moment it has an air-powered corner filter, but today is payday so I'll see about getting a small HOB for it instead. My car is in the shop and is going to cost about 4x what I originally thought, so any other raising supplies are going to have to wait. But since it'll be a month or more until I have another batch to raise, this should do just fine for now!  

As I was feeding after moving the little ones to their new home, I discovered one more baby in the 30g tank, so that brings the total of little ones to 11. I guess they survive a lot better in my 30 than in my 20! There's a lot more moss and and bushy plants for hiding spaces, and most of the hungry mouths are far smaller than those in the 20g :hihi: So it looks like the dad of the babies is a half black, or half-black with leopard tale because some of the babies are looking pretty dark on their tails. I've read this makes sexing a bit harder though. Ah well, I'll see what i can do! I thought I might've seen a gravid spot on a couple of them, but they're only 10 days old, so i'll give it a little more time before I try to separate them by sex.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Oh and one more questions, when i do put the pairs together to breed, how long should I leave them together? A few hours? a few days? something in between? 

Thanks!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Anyone? suggestions on how long i should leave a pair together?


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'd leave them together till the female starts to plump up.

And if it fits into your breeding plans, if possible, have multiple females to breed with each male. This way the male doesn't chase a single female into exhaustion.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

That shouldn't be a problem, I was thinking about taking my 1 female guppy out of the 20g and isolating her and then putting 1 of the 3 (or maybe all 3) make guppies from the 30g into the 20g to mate with the female endlers. Or would it be better to avoid moving fish from tank to tank and put the breeders in a separate mating tank? If that's the case I'll probably have to wait until I can get a slightly larger tank and better filter because I don't want to move the babies into the smaller QT i have because it's quite small and i don't want to move them again.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'm not really sure I followed that... LOL

What I would do is put the females first in the spawning/fry rearing tank, and condition them there. Then add the male(s). Once the females appear pregnant, remove the male(s). Then once the females have dropped their fry, remove them, too.

I've heard that Endlers don't eat their fry to the extent that most other fish will, but I have heard reports that they will on occasion. (IME it's the rare fish that won't eat whatever moves and is small enough to fit in their mouths...)


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

hahahaha yeah i just reread it......it didn't make a lot of sense....oops! :tongue: 

Let's see if I can make some sense of it...

So i have some 12 day old fry in the rearing tank at the moment, which is why i was thinking of doing the mating in one of the main tanks, would it be ok to put the females and male in the rearing tank with the babies instead? or would it be best to set up a second mating/rearing tank? 

I hope that makes more sense....does it? :hihi:


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I wouldn't put the pair in the rearing tank with such young fry. They may not eat them, but as LL said... if it moves, it's dinnertime! :hihi:

Males can harass a female to death so don't put more than one male with a female. It's usually better to have a 3:1 ratio of 3 females to every male. But if you don't leave them together too long, one on one should work fine. Just keep an eye on things, and if the female is clearly having problems from the male's advances, move the male.

Basically, guppy/endler "breeding" goes like this: Get female. Get male. Put them together for 2 seconds. Breeding completed!

Point being is that guppies and endlers breed like crazy. The males will do everything they can go breed with the female. And even with the female trying to get away from the male, the males will sneak up and try to breed with the females.

I'd leave them together for a day or two. Then put them in their own tanks again. Watch the female. She should grow increasingly larger until she drops her fry in a month.

If, by some odd chance, the female did not get pregnant, then give it another try. But, honestly, these fish aren't called "millions fish" without reason.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Hahahaha yes, i suppose they wouldn't get the nickname millions fish for nothing! That's a good point about the harassment issue, i've notice the males all trying to mate with each other in the 30g. They have a serious sex drive! Again, millions fish nickname is not for naught.  

I definitely have enough females to do an 2:1 or 3:1 f:m ratio, i'm actually more worried about water quality since I don't have room to set up a very large tank for mating, and currently the only free QT tank i have is only about 1-1.5g. Again, one of the reasons I was thinking about doing the mating in my main tanks instead, but then that gets risky disease control-wise and whatnot. I'm still carless or I'd run out and see what i could find for another tank today! (Can you tell i'm excited to get started on a hybrid generation? :tongue Maybe I'll make my boyfriend drive me to the store this weekend.....he did say he wanted to get a couple more fish for his tank....I can make room certainly for another 2.5g and possibly a 5. 

heeheehee


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Go to Walmart and get a 10g for $9.99. Add an inexpensive filter. I found one recently for $13 shipped on eBay from a reputable seller.

That's all you need. Try to stay away from the 2.5g or 5g as they don't have the space you need; plus, they're usually more expensive than the cheap 10g tanks at Walmart.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

It's more of a space issue, but I think I found a spot....it's kind of low to the ground and getting some light in there will be tricky, but you are definitely right that the 10gals are cheaper than the 5s! For my birthday a few years ago I was really wanting a fish tank so my friend bought me a 5gallon tank and supplies (we both worked at a pet store so it was pretty cheap with our discount) And then a few months later she called me up and was like "did you know 10 gallon tanks cost less than 5 gallon tanks?" and i was like "yeah, weird right?" and she said "i bought you the 5 because I thought it was the cheapest! I would have gotten you the bigger 10 if i'd known!" hahahahaha 

that's my random anecdote :tongue: 

But anyway as soon as I can get a ride, I'll see what I can find that a) i have room for and b) i can afford


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I have sat tanks directly on the floor when I'm using them for specific purposes. Right now, I have 7 tanks on the floor at my house because they're going to hold my fish during the move. Then I'll break them down. When I need a tank for Q/T or whatever, I can quickly set one up again. It's very easy when you do it this way. But you have to have the floor space to start with which can be a problem.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Well that's good to know! I have floor space, and I have space on the bottom shelf of a book case, so I'm thinking either space will work. I realized that I even have a 10g glass canopy, so I won't have to worry about the dogs trying to get a drink....or a snack! Half of it is on my 20g at the moment, but maybe this will be my incentive to do the gravel switch on my 20g that i've been planning to do, because I plan on moving the 20g away from the wall when i do the gravel switch so the HOB can actually hang on the back instead of the side and I can set up a proper glass canopy instead of the back half of a 10g plus a plexiglass front half that i rigged together myself :tongue: :hihi: this should also get that filter end of the tank out of the shadows a bit which would be good. Anyway....enough of my digression there lol. All in all, I think i have room for a 10g and could set it up at a pretty low cost.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

LOL! I can just see the gears turning in your head! :hihi:

Looks like you've got it figured out. Can't wait to see the fry you get with your breeding!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

hahahaha i think i can FEEL the gears turning in my head! :hihi:

Thanks! I can't wait to see them either!  I'm also excited to see what colors my current fry develop into, i know mom has a leopard tail, but who knows what dad was!


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I think you may be surprised when your fry grow up.

I have a half blonde female that I bought pregnant. All of her fry were identical to her so it appeared she breed with a half blonde male.

And then I have the female endler which, of course, is very plane.

Now, take the male offspring from the half blonde female and let them breed with those two females. What did I get?

I have leopard males! And some kind of iridescent males (my favorites). Some half blond males, of course. As far as female fry, I got some more half blondes, as well as some blondes without the black (or extremely faded black). I have some females that have the plain body and smaller body shape, but they have traces of color on their fins. Some of them have faded colored leopard spots on the top and bottom of their tails with the middles being clear.

Don't even begin to ask me how the leopards arrived! But I got 3 of them with the exact same patterns and tail shapes.

Obviously, I don't know what produced my female endler so she may be a hybrid with a leopard or something and just not show it.

I love how some of the fry have been complete surprises. I'm thinking of mating my females with another, completely unrelated male to see what I get. Or I might get a male endler. That ought to be fun!

So unless you know what parents created the fish you have, you may end up with colors and patterns you never expected... which is the best part of it all.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Yeah that's definitely part of the reason I'm so excited to see how the babies grow up! I know what mom looks like, but who knows what the dad looked like! And who knows what mom's parents looked like, or dad's for that matter. They're from a LFS mixed tank so I'm sure the genetics are all over the place! The endlers from a blackbar / peacock mixed tank so they should only show endler traits, but i'm excited to see what my various colored male guppies' genes do when mixed with the female endlers! I'll wait on mating male endlers with female guppies until round 2 when hopefully i'll have a few virgin females from my current batch fry. I currently only have the 1 female guppy.

I saw a couple beautiful female guppies at the fish store the other day, I really wanted them but just didn't think i'd have the space. They were both sort of drab looking (like endler females) on first glance but when the light caught them right, their fins were an iridescent shimmery pink and blue! it took a lot of control for me not to buy them!


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I want a blue male guppy. I'd love a blue that's not so dark that it's black, but not so pastel that you can't tell it's blue! I've seen a couple, but wasn't in position to do a Q/T so I had to pass them up. Given how many guppies there are in the world (millions and millions! :icon_lol, I figure I'll get a blue one some day.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

hahahah i'm sure you'll find one too! And i'll keep an eye out for any blues that might somehow magically crop up in my stocks! (probably not since my guppies are yellow and red mostly but you never know! ) 

Sooo i was staring at my 20g today and apparently a moss covered piece of driftwood is the key to baby survival....apparently the young male i pulled out of my 20g (he was colorless when he arrived and somehow went unnoticed as a male) got pulled out too late and i have babies in the 20 now too! :eek5::icon_eek: I only saw 2 so i think the bettas and my very large neons and glolights helped with population control....but that means my older endlers are not in fact virgins like i thought. Sigh. Some of them are definitely not pregnant though because they were all quite young, so the smaller ones should still be virgins. I guess for my purposes of doing this purely for my own enjoyment it doesn't matter overly much if I start with virgins. I think it should be fairly obvious if the offspring are hybrids or not. The question now is what do i do with the babies? Leave them in the 20? put them in with the guppy babies? SO MANY BABIES! :biggrin: not quite what i'd planned but fun all the same! :hihi:


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

LOL! Now you know why they're called millions fish! :icon_lol:

I finally had to let nature take its course. If I tried to save every one of my fry, I'd have hundreds of them by now.

There are no virgin guppies. As soon as they are old enough to determine their gender, they're already pregnant. All you can do is separate the males and females and let the females keep dropping their fry until they finally stop. But as my one little guppy fry shows, even after 9 months without a male, the females can still drop fry.

BTW, my little guppy fry is still doing well! I guess he figured out how to master the art of hiding so he's not eaten. :smile:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

hahaha yeah, millions fish for sure! I tried for a minute or two to catch them but they were hiding too well in the moss, i think there's only 2, maybe 3 so they'll have to fight for themselves  Glad to hear your little guy is still going strong!


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

If you can't catch the fry, then they must be hiding well! I bet they'll make it just fine in the tank as they are.

I don't think my little one made it through the move. I had to catch all my fish for the move, and looked down to see the fry was in the bucket! So I must have caught him without knowing it. But I didn't have a lot of time so I didn't separate him. All the fish were in the same bucket. By the time I got them to the house, he was gone. 

I think I'll put my iridescent male hybrids in with the females to see what I'll get from that mix! It'll be fun to have some fry even if I don't keep them all.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Yeah, they're definitely good little hiders! I think they'll be just fine, I'm more worried about whether the tank can handle the bioload if there's a lot more than the 2 i saw :tongue: But i should be able to pull them out when they get bigger if necessary  
I bought a 10g tank on sale for $9.99 at Petsmart today and fashioned a top out of half of a 10g class canopy and some plexiglass for the rest (i'll get the other half of the glass canopy from my 20gal's top when i have time to swap out the substrate and take the time to do it properly  

Sorry to hear about your missing fry Vicki! But like you said, i guess we can't save them all! Hopefully he'll turn up though!  I can't wait to see what you come up with when you get babies from your hybrid cross though, i'm sure they'll be stunning!  Sorry I gave you the breeding bug though! :hihi:


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

The tank will handle the bioload. Fry are very small so their bioload is equally as small. As the fry grow, the tank's bacteria will grow to keep up. It's not as if you just dumped a dozen adult fish in the tank.

Congratulations on the 10g! Looks like you've figured out a cost effective way to get a top on it too. I think you'll really enjoy watching the fry grow.

Don't worry about the breeding bug. I'll just send my extras to you. Gotta fill that 10g tank, right? :hihi:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

That is an excellent point about the bioload! I'm not really sure why I didn't think of that :tongue: silly me :hihi: 

Thanks for the congratulations! lol yeah, i decided to go with the cheapest option which ended up giving me the tank that i'll be able to keep the stablest. The 2.5g tank was $12, the 5g plastic "critter keeper" was $16 and the 10g was normally $12 and on sale for $9.99. No matter which I chose I have a filter I can use and I had the pieces to easily make a top for the 10 so I figured even though it'll take up more space (and i'll be more tempted to plant it) it made the most sense, especially on a budget.....easier to maintain WQ will probably save $$ in the long run because I should need less meds  

Hahaha i do indeed need to fill the 10g, and those iridescent guppies sound very pretty.....:hihi:


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Now see how much money I saved you?

And you definitely need to plant it. What's an aquarium without plants? It'll be for the fish, of course. Always for the fish. They need the plants to feel at home. Right?

Hmm... and just think... if you get _another_ 10g... :biggrin:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

For the nursery tank, would I be better off with a sponge filter, corner filter or HOB? I'd love any input! thanks


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

hahahaha once again we were posting at the same time Vicki! Well you know what they say about great minds  heehe :hihi: 

You definitely did save me money, thanks! :biggrin: 

Yes yes, planted for the fish! Of course!  I think i am going to leave this one bare bottomed for now, but i'll throw in a bunch of moss (for the fish!) and see what happens :tongue: 

I WAS actually just thinking about what if i got another 10g.....:hihi: I realized I might need one to separate males and females! Though it seems like there are less males than females (this seems to be true with my current crop of babies but i've read it in a bunch of forums too....probably to do with the fact that they do best in harems) so i could probably go smaller for the males....but then i run into the "well it's cheaper just to get the 10" issue all over again! oh man....what "project for fun" have i gotten myself into?! :hihi: heeheehee i'd be lying if i said i wasn't excited!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 17, 2008)

For filtration you'll need a sponge somewhere. Or panty hose. 

I happen to like box filters. For some things. Simple and straight forward. I make my own out of Fuji brand water bottles. *But* If you change all the floss or floss and media at one time, you'll lose the beneficial bacteria. Layer it so you can leave part in there. Or just rinse the floss in a bucket of used tank water and put it back. It can be amazing how much gunk will collect there and rinse out. 

Sponge filters are nearly perfect for Endlers. Fry can't be sucked up, the sponge can be rinsed and reused immediately, and the fry will eat at the micro organisms that grow on it. The only drawback is they don't pull particulates as well as a box filter or HOB. At least for me. That's what siphons and water changes are for though. 

HOB filters will need either a sponge or panty hose like material covering the intake so the fry won't get sucked into the impeller. I prefer the ones that use sponges and a media bag instead of replaceable (expensive) filter pads. The sponge on the intake of my Endlers colony starts out blue and is usually black by the end of the week. The filter pad inside the HOB box has not needed cleaning in months. If you rinse your sponges in used tank water you can't possibly rinse out all the bacteria. I may just toss the internal pad and use a huge sponge on the intake. Or, switch to a sponge on a power head.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

thanks for all the input dbosman! I'm not sure what you mean by a box filter, but I'm assuming you mean this kind? If so I have one of those currently in the 2.5g that I was actually planning on putting in the 10g when I get it up and running since it's already seeded with bacteria. I worry it's not enough filtration for a 10g though, is a sponge filter really enough to keep the tank clean too? I have one of these on hand as well, but I'm thinking i'll go with that OR the corner one, and then either a small HOB with sponge prefilter or just a sponge filter. I want whatever won't create too much current for the babies and will keep the tank the cleanest


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Yep, that's a box filter (incidentally, the filter you just linked was my very first filter, ever! ).

I think either of those filters would be a great choice.

Keep in mind that for fry to achieve maximum growth, daily water changes are really the recommended way to go. With daily water changes, filtration really is optional.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks Laura Lee! Hahaha your first filter! No way, that's awesome! I noticed it was just a couple dollars at my LFS so I grabbed it in case I ever needed an extra filter that didn't require special filter cartridges  

I've been trying to do daily water changes but every once in a while i get busy, I like the peace of mind that the fish will do ok if i miss a day here or there  Also since I plan on going barebottom, i like the idea of there being somewhere for some beneficial bacteria to grow :tongue:


----------



## tinah (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm doing a similar experiment myself. Except I'm using wild type guppies and guppy/endler mixes (nothing like doing it on a budget!) I know you are trying to separate them out. I've just put them all in a 20h and am letting them do their thing. I can't wait to see what I end up with! Good luck and keep updating! I'll be checking on your progress cause I'm so curious as to what you're going to end up with!! Best of luck!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks tinah! That's cool that you're doing something similar! :biggrin: I thought about just letting them do their thing, but I'd like to partially keep the population under control and partially have some idea of who I bred with who  

Good luck with your endeavor too! I'd love to see pictures if you have any, and keep me posted on your progress as well! (you can feel free to post here if you don't feel like starting a new thread, I won't consider it hijacking!  )


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I always stick a few river rocks inside my corner filters to help weight them down. Then I pile in the zeolite/carbon mix, then a layer of filter floss. I change the filter floss 1x every week or every other week, and then the zeolite/carbon mix once every month or so- but not during the same week I change the floss. 

I've heard that it's safe to wash sponge filters with Woolite, tho I've never personally tried it. You'd only do that once in a very great while to give it a thorough cleaning, of course, since it would kill the biofilter.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Haha we were posting at the same time LauraLee! 

Thanks for the input, river rocks are a good idea, i'll probably do that when I switch out the media, at the moment i have some gravel from one of my established tank in there to seed it which is helping to weigh it down, but i'm not sure i can sort out the black gravel from the charcoal so when i switch it out for fresh charcoal (and zeolite, that's a good idea too) I'll probably put some larger rocks in there. I've also got the blue filter guy and i think a cartridge or two, but i've also got some other things i can shove in there instead of cartridges


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Got the 10g set up, still need to add the second filter but I don't think my pump is strong enough, I've got another one coming thanks to the good old SnS though!  There're 3 female mollies that I'm holding for my boyfriend until the Ick problem in his tank is cleared up, my really trusty LFS was having an election day sale though so he wanted to pick up the ladies yesterday and I figured since I had this tank set up I could hold them for a few days. So just a really basic set up with some moss for the babies when they're dropped  

FTS:









And some pics of the boys I'm using for the first round of breeding: 

Pretty red guy, this one's kind of dark but it shows his color pretty well









also kind of dark, but a good shot of his patterning while he displays for his reflection :hihi:









And a brighter one, again shows his patterning quite well. His true color is somewhere between the dark pics and this one: 









And my pretty yellow male: 

First two are high contrast to show his beautiful snake skin patterning:


















And this one is blurry but shows his true color better:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

A sad morning for me. I woke and my last 3 guppy babies were dead. I lost a bunch a few days ago but I assumed it was due to over feeding and a subsequent ammonia build up and / or not being diligent enough about water changes. So i've been doing daily water changes and the 3 survivors have been doing great for the few days since then and the POOF this morning they were all dead! I feel just awful and like I'm a terrible guppy momma! 

And to top it off, one of the Mollies i'm holding for Ian was stressed and dropping fry too early this morning, they were coming out with huge round yellow yolk sacks still. I think that her stress was caused by low pH, or rather the pH dropping drastically since the water change last night (comes out of my tap around 8.4, was under 6.2 when i checked this morning). I've since added crushed coral. The weird this is the even larger Molly lady (larger as in closer to dropping her fry) seems to be doing just fine! 

i suppose pH could be the issue with the guppies too, but for the past few weeks i haven't had trouble with them! 

Well, now I have the 10g to keep the babies in once I get the next drop, should be more stable than the 2.5. sigh.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

well the common denominator seems to be low pH so I've added crushed coral to both tanks and did water changes and we'll see if the pH drops overnight again or not. 

I hope it helps. I lost a lot of snails in the 2.5 g so I added a bunch of snails to see how they fair since there's no babies left. i'd like to figure out the problem so I might avoid it in the future.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'd suspect the pH change rather than just the low pH. Have you tried setting your water out overnight to let the pH stabilize before using it to do water changes?


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Yeah, I'm sure it was the change, I had this problem before so I feel like an idiot / horrible fish mama for not thinking of it before, but when I was using the 2.5 as a QT right before putting the babies in it I had no problems with the fish, they healed up and put back in their tanks. I wonder if somehow the meds were helping to stabilize the pH? But then the first couple weeks I had the babies in this tank they were fine, it was just the last couple water changes. I need to check my tap water to see if the GH/KH have changed. 

I haven't tried letting my tap water stabilize, but it drops so low that I'm not sure it would be helpful? It drops in the tank to less than 6.0 With the crushed coral it stabilizes around 7.4, comes out of the tap at about 8.2 so I figure if I'm only doing a small, or even up to a 50% water change it's not dropping as much, and it's dropping more slowly. 

I would probably be worth seeing what the water alone drops to overnight though, maybe without the influences of everything else in the tank it won't drop quite as far. I'll try that tonight! 

Would you recommend letting it sit with or without my dechlor?

Thanks for the suggestion!


----------



## tinah (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm so sorry to hear you lost the babies. What is making the pH drop from the tap to your tank?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 17, 2008)

I know from your posts that space is at a premium, but I think it's time for you to find some space to age your water before it goes into a tank. Any reasonable container would do. A five gallon bucket with a lid to keep critters out, or even one of those 2.5 gallon water jug grocery stores sell water in. Those are thin though. Don't fill to the top. Add your favorite dechlorinator and drop an air stone in to agitate the water. IF - after aging and testing - your pH needs adjusting you can do that in the bucket and not in your tank.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

tinah - thanks for the kind words. I was so sad. I feel like i'm the only idiot who can't breed livebearers! Oy. My water is INCREDIBLY soft so the pH just plummets. I had this problem in my 20g tank and found the best course of action was to add some crushed coral to the filter to help buffer the pH and harden the water slightly. The Eco-complete in my 30g is buffering that tank at the moment. I also added crushed coral to my 5.5g filter to buffer that water even though that tank never seemed to drop quite as low as my 20g. I just didn't think of it for these tanks (again i feel like an idiot) but then I also never had problems until all of a sudden babies were dying. Like I said, i had 2 tetras in QT in that tank for a few weeks and they healed up and went back to their tanks and continue to do well. 

dbos - yeah, i definitely want to do some testing to see if what happens when I let the water sit out, but I actually don't like chemically adjusting the water itself, I find using some crushed coral (aragonite) in the filter is a safer way to maintain a steady pH with it's buffering capacity. If I continue to have problems though, I'll think about altering the pH of the water before adding it, thanks for the suggestion! And thanks for the "how to" on leaving it out to condition it. 5g buckets I have, those are easy enough to find a space for (under my desk that has my 5.5g on it so I can split the air tubing ought to do the trick don't you think? ) mostly it's just countertop kinds of space where i can actually see my tank that are at a premium. I could set up a few tanks under my desk, but a lot of good that would do, i think i'll save that space for the buckets!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Just a small update, the 10g has been stable since I added the CC at a pH of about 7.4 which is great. For some reason the 2.5 doesn't want to stabilize. I think i'll just break it down and throw the filter into the 10g to keep it cycled for if i need to use it as a hospital tank and then i'd treat that water with some bicarbonate (out of the tank) or something like that. I really don't need to keep it running to house the pond snails that i pull out of my 30g if i can keep the filter cycled in a different tank.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

:icon_idea lightbulb just went off in my brain. I wasn't having trouble in the 2.5g tank until recently because, for cycling purposes, I'd used substrate from my 30g in the box filter I was using in the 2.5. The Substrate in my 30g is eco-complete which buffers pH up. When I got the 10g I removed the cycled box filter from the 2.5 and put it in the 10 to jumpstart the cycle and put a smaller filter in the 2.5 with some mulm. The small amount of eco in the filter was probably enough to buffer the pH in the 2.5 but no the 10 so then i started seeing the problem in both tanks! now i feel like a real idiot! :iamwithst but at least I figured it out. I still don't know why the 2.5 won't stabilize now with CC though.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I'm sorry to hear about your pH troubles. I'm sure you'll keep working on it until you find a way to stablize the pH. Heck, if nothing else, you could pull some water out of your larger tank after a water change. Or really anything you can use to contain the water until you get the pH you want by using Eco-Complete (EC) or CC.

Your guppies are really pretty! I like the dark red ones in the first pictures. I like deep, rich colors.

After having moved all my tanks a couple weeks ago and thinking the baby guppy had died, I have discovered another baby guppy in the tank at the same place as the first one. I'd normally think they were the same baby guppy, but the new one is lighter in color and smaller. But it is rather odd to find another baby guppy in the same spot as the first one!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Vicki - thanks! Yeah, i've had the pH troubles before in my other tanks, so hopefully the CC will continue to do the trick in the 10g. That's a good idea about using established tank water to do water changes though, i think i'll definitely try that for the 2.5 and see how it goes! 

And thanks, I LOVE the red one too, it's just the one (lots of pics of the same guy :tongue but i think he's beautiful too and he's the one that i think will make the coolest mix with the endlers, i think the yellow snakeskin could look cool though too, but no he's not as deeply or brightly colored, he does look brighter when he's in the 30g with the black background and substrate though  

Wow, i can't believe you found another baby in the same spot, that's crazy! And where are they all coming from?! crazy guppies! heeheehee


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I have no idea where they're coming from! You'd think the guppies were finished dropping fry by now, but obviously not. It's just so odd that this little guy is in the same spot. If he wasn't smaller, I'd think that maybe his black color faded, but this guy looks more like a guppy than an endler hybrid.

I guess they've been dropping fry this whole time, but they never survived until the plants grew in so thick. I guess I'd better check the canister to see if any fry got sucked into it. One time, it had over a dozen living fry in it!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

silly fish and their being so fertile! I can't belive you found so many babies living in the canister! Though when I worked in the zebrafish lab in Woods Hole we would find babies (and sometimes tricky adults) in the sump a lot! (We had rack tanks on a recirculation system, hence the giant sump). Fish sure can be crafty little buggers! Dense plant growth definitely seems to be the key to babies surviving in community tank, now that I have moss growing ultra thick on my DW it's the first time I've seen survivors....other than the 1 guppy a while ago.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Yes, lots of moss will definitely help your guppy fry to survive.

I had something even more strange than fry in my canister. One day a couple of months ago, my spray bar was clogged in a few places. Of course, I did the normal "pull out the gunk sticking out of the hole" trick to no avail. So I finally decided I had to pull the thing off and clean it properly.

So I pull the spray bar off and start cleaning it with a brush under running water, and guess what pops out? An amano shrimp! I run to put him in the tank, and went back to cleaning. Then I found another amano shrimp! Well, at that point, I decided to look inside the spray bar, and I ended up finding about 10 amanos in it! They were what was clogging the spray bar!

At first, I couldn't figure out how they got in there, but then I figured it out. I had two outlets on that filter, the spray bar and one of those bendable bars made out of lots of ball and socket pieces. Apparently, the amanos would crawl inside the bendable bar and could crawl all the way into the main tubing that holds the spray bar and the bendable bar. At that point, they couldn't go anywhere else so they would go into the spray bar!

I put a screen over the bendable bar at that point so the amanos couldn't go back in. But who would ever think that shrimp would crawl into an active output from a canister?

When I moved my tank, I reconfigured my plumbing to get rid of the moveable bar. I can just imagine what might get caught inside it if the screen came off!

So fry in a canister and shrimp in a spray bar. They sure get into everything!


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Karakle, if you're interested in trying some Najas guadalupensis (aka Guppy grass) in your breeding tanks shoot me a PM- I've got some taking over my 46gal ATM lol


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Vicki - wow! I guess guppy fry and other fish are NOT the only ones that find weird places to get into! Were all the amanos alive when you found them? Silly shrimp!!! And yes, moss is definitely key, that's where the babies in the 30g were hiding as well  Good thing you were able to fix where they were getting into the filter! 

LauraLee - Thanks! I might just take you up on that if it doesn't need substrate to grow, my breeding/fry tank is bare-bottom with a small bit of flame moss in it (that i will probably tie to something eventually) but more cover would be great. I'll PM you for details  thanks!


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

You can always use a pot and rock wool for plants. Just like a potted plant inside a house!

And, yup, all the amanos were still alive! It amazed me. I have no idea how long they were in there. None died after that, either.

It just goes to show that amanos are hardier than they look. :smile:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

ooo potted plants! I never thought of that! Thanks!


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

LOL! You have to take pictures when you get it all decorated with the potted plants. :smile:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

hahahaha I would! LauraLee said it'll grow with no substrate (i assume floating) so I don't know if I'll end up with any potted plants, but if I do, you can bet I'll post pics! I'll probably post pics anyway! heeheehee


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Great! Can't wait for the picture show. :smile:


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Yup Najas will grow pretty much however you want it to... floating, sinking, planted, tied to something...


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

hahaha awesome! Sounds easy and great!  Can't wait for it!  

and don't worry about it Vicki, I'll certainly post pictures!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Well my 10g breeding tank is finally nice and clear! I used established media and never saw and ammonia or nitrIte spike, but i did get a "new tank bacterial bloom" and was left with foggy water....is that normal? Either way the fish have all seemed to do well and the bacterial bloom has passed  Hopefully i'll have some fat females soon and fry soon after that!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Also, I tied down my moss to a couple of rocks. NO i am NOT turning this in to a full on planted tank! :hihi: but i DID get sick of accidentally siphoning up the moss while doing water changes and having to pick the pieces back out of the dirty water bucket :tongue: So i tied it down to make water changes easier and hopefully it'll grow better this way. I just hope it grows in some before there are any fry in the tank so that they have something to hide in because it's quite flat right now, due to being recently tied to the rocks of course :hihi: I did throw in a few pieces of stems that broke off in other tanks to float around though  

Ok, that's about all for my less-than-exciting updates today LOL


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

I have been following this thread for a few days now. I love endlers! I actually used to think they were guppies when I was younger, our LFS sold fancy guppies and common guppies (endlers) I would cross breed them all the time. You'll have some beautiful males in a few generations! Just make sure to add a new line every once and a while to prevent deformities.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks! That's encouraging!  I'll definitely be mixing and matching parents so keeping the lines deformity free shouldn't be too much trouble  

Also, that betta in your avatar is beautiful! :biggrin:


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Karackle said:


> and don't worry about it Vicki, I'll certainly post pictures!


_(Stomping foot and looking at watch...)_ Um... where are the pics? 



Karackle said:


> NO i am NOT turning this in to a full on planted tank! :hihi:


Sure you're not! :icon_lol: You know how it goes. First, it's moss. Then it's tied down moss. Then it's floating plants. Then the floaters sprout roots. Then what can you do but plant them. Then it'll look so awesome if you put the left over rocks in this corner. Then, just one piece of driftwood. Well, maybe two. Or three. Or a grouping. Then, hey, this other stem would add color and leaf texture! Then... before you know it, the tank will be a full on planted tank! :hihi:

Before long, you'll be asking about pressurized CO2! :biggrin:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

HAHAHAHA I was waiting until I got the guppy grass and/or potted plants to post pictures, i thought that's what i was supposed to take pictures of! My apologies, I'll get on pictures of what i have once I get home, and then MORE once I get the guppy grass, and more if i put plants in pots  ......sound ok? :biggrin: 

No no no no just floaters and tied down moss....maybe some potted plants....but i do want to keep it bare-bottom so it's easier to clean.....but then if it was fully planted it would be easier to maintain a stable tank....i mean....NO! BAD ME! :hihi: :icon_lol: 

We'll see what happens with the mating project, if it fails, then maybe i'll upgrade my 5g betta tank to a 10 and keep the 5.5 on hand for QT  

No CO2 for me though, i'm happy with my low-tech goodness!

Pictures later!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Okie doke, as requested here are some pictures! They're not very exciting since this is not a very exciting tank (not yet anyway....once there's babies everywhere it should be neat!) but pictures are always fun so here you go! 

FTS with flash and no background because i forgot to turn the flash off and add a background for pics, but it came out well so i figured "why not post it?"  








Oh the, emperor in here is just being held for my boy, he was getting picked on by the other emperors and no longer has much of a tail, it occurs to me though that i should probably move him to my 30 though when the females are getting ready to drop fry.....

FTS with no flash and a background:









My recently mossified rocks:


















Some random floating pieces i threw in the tank for good measure:









And a couple fish shots....they positively would not sit still and be pretty today, these were the best i got. In focus female endlers with blurry male guppies: 


















not sure if the ladies are getting plump from carrying fry or if they're just full of food, but it's probably about time to move the males back to the 30g.


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Karackle said:


> Thanks! That's encouraging!  I'll definitely be mixing and matching parents so keeping the lines deformity free shouldn't be too much trouble
> 
> Also, that betta in your avatar is beautiful! :biggrin:


I am excited about your project! I still think you can sell them to your LFS as long as you are clear about them being hybrids. They used to be available around here, just not as expensive as fancies. Oh and thanks about the betta avatar....that's george, my old pal.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Looks great! Nice grow out tank. I'm sure the moss will grow quick enough. Mine always shot up like a rocket, even in my low tech tank.

Speaking of which... I started out wanting to keep my 20L low tech. No CO2, no ferts, low medium lighting. I just knew one high tech tank was enough...

Um... My next project is to switch the 20L for my 29g, and connect the CO2, pH controller, start the EI ferts and use both sets of lights. So much for low tech! :icon_lol:

It's like a disease. You swear yourself to keeping it low and simple, but then one thing leads to another, and you end up getting more stuff that eventually takes you to a high tech tank! This happens by osmosis without any brain power needed. Just you wait...

BTW, I will suggest that having substrate helps a tank remain cleaner because it can hold a lot more bacteria that takes care of the guppy poop and whatever else is decomposing in the tank. I've also found it nearly impossible to keep the bottom of a bare tank clean for some reason. Stuff falls to the bottom and it doesn't readily come off with just simple vacuuming.

Oh, and you know that plants also help stabilize the water. Good, stable water is very important for fry, you know.

Faster growing plants work even better and fend off algae. So maybe some CO2 and ferts would help.

Lighting would really get the plants growing! Imagine just how great the water quality would be!

And the fry would enjoy having a dark substrate and plants so they can hide better and have an interesting tank to swim around in. Just hanging out in a boring tank must be... well... boring!

But, yea, keep it low tech. No problem! :hihi: :tongue:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Hahahahaha that's quite an evolution you took to high tech!  

Yes gravel is definitely good for maintaining balance and plants are great for stablization maybe I should look into that...hey wait a minute! you tricked me!  

Thanks for the comliment though! Yeah i think it seems like it should do pretty well as a grow-out. And i'm sure the moss will shoot up quickly, there's a decent amount of light on the tank since I'm using a spiral CF to save energy :tongue:


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Karackle said:


> hey wait a minute! you tricked me!


Who, me? :hihi:



> ...there's a decent amount of light on the tank...


On a serious note, be careful that you don't have too much light and too little plant mass or you really will get too much algae.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Sewingalot - i just realized I didn't respond to your post! Sorry!!! And thanks, I'm excited too! (did I say that already? heehee) Yeah if I bring them to the LFS I'll definitely make it clear that they are hybrids of course! And say hi to George for me, he's lovely! :biggrin:

Vicki - Very true I don't want algae! I don't think it's too much though, i have it pretty far above the tank for that reason, and I do have a few fast growing stems in there floating around to make it less barren and scary for the fish.  It's also got a pretty small bioload and try to do frequent water changes to get rid of excess food and waste. I will keep an eye on it though for sure!  

And yes, you are the tricky one! :hihi:


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

So does that make me Tricky Vicki? :hihi:

You know I'm just razzing you. Your tank will do great however you do it.

I do have an idea (and not a tricky one). What about adding floaters to the tank? I like the red root floaters Tex Gal has. It would not only help with the lighting, but I think the fry would love it. Plus, it just looks pretty.

I think I just talked myself into getting some! :icon_lol:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Hahahaha Tricky Vicki! I like it! :hihi:

I know, i'm just razzing you too (i like that word, i'll have to start using it! ) 

Red root floater though, that could be a valid option. I've got some other floater, duckweed i think, that came in with another SnS order and is now trying to take over my 5g, I could scoop that out and throw it in the 10 until I can get my hands on some red root floater. I'll have to see if TexGal has any posted in the SnS, could be a good way to make the tank look a little less barren without going full on planted. Better for the fish and WQ to have a little something, and I agree, should help cut down on algae. The moss won't grow quite fast enough for that I don't think. I'll look into it! Thanks for the suggestion! 

Hahaha you can't blame this one on me if you decide to get some though!


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Oh, I've already PMed Tex Gal! I talked myself into it! I'm buying some plants from her and asked her to add in about 3 red rooters for me to try out.

Yup, they are supposed to be nutrient sponges so they should do well for your tank. I'm not crazy about duckweed because not only does it grow like a, well, weed, but it also gets caught up in the current and goes everywhere in the tank. However, RRF should be much easier to control.

I've always like the idea of floaters, but don't want to shade my plants. But a few should be okay. I think. Well, if she can grow her gorgeous plants with them, then I have a chance.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Hahaha yes, apparently it does grow like a weed! But that's why I want to get it out of the 5.5, I figure I may as well throw it in the 10 for now and see what happens, it'll be easier to scoop it back out of there anyway because there's no other plants for it to get stuck in if it gets pushed under  

I'll have to PM TexGal and see if she has a sample of RRF that I could try!


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Before long, we'll have to start naming our tanks, "Tex Gal #2". :hihi:

I was just starting out with plants when I bought the duckweed. Didn't work well with the HOB I was using at the time. Can we say it's snowing duckweed? :biggrin:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Complexity said:


> Before long, we'll have to start naming our tanks, "Tex Gal #2". :hihi:


Hahahahah that might be true!  

Yeah, I can see that being a problem with duckweed, i guess the flow in my 5.5 is probably not enough to cause that problem, it's also gotten caught in the stems that are growing along the surface (that tank needs some serious trimming and rescaping). Given that (at least for now) i have 2 air driven filter in the 10, I think the duckweed should actually do ok. If nothing else it's a nutrient sponge until i get some RRF  

I'll have to PM TexGal right now and tell her you sent me :hihi: 

In other news, my females are starting to look round bellied even when they haven't just eaten, so I'll probably remove the males back to the 30 later today  Hopefully I'll have some fry again soon, and hopefully this time they'll do ok!


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

So you're expecting again! Fantastic! :smile:

I' sure Tex Gal won't mind the attention. Her plants and tank are such an inspiration! It's only natural that we want what she's got. :hihi:

I checked my female guppies today, and I swear there are some that look pregnant! I'm beginning to wonder if a fry survived, grew up, and is impregnating them all. It's so weird. So I guess I'll be looking for more fry at some point. I haven't seen that second little fry, but that tank has become a mess with me dumping plants and trimmings in the tank. I could have 20 fish in there without knowing it!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Yup, I believe I am expecting again! And this time it should be hybrids! :biggrin: 

I hope she doesn't mind me asking, but she seems very nice so I'm not worried :tongue:

Maybe you have a male endler that grew up and is so small in your 75g tank that you keep missing him? Lol i have no idea how else they could still be popping out babies!!! I guess you should definitely keep an eye out for babies though  Heehee FUN!


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

ooo ooo ooo - dibs on Tex Gal #3!! LOL

Congrats on the successful breeding, Kara. I'll mail out that Guppy grass tomorrow or Tuesday. :thumbsup:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

lauraleellbp said:


> ooo ooo ooo - dibs on Tex Gal #3!! LOL


Hahahaha, it's yours! :hihi:



lauraleellbp said:


> Congrats on the successful breeding, Kara. I'll mail out that Guppy grass tomorrow or Tuesday. :thumbsup:


Thanks! Well let's just say i HOPE it's successful breeding, or they might just be fat! :icon_lol: 

As for the guppy grass, if it's not too much to ask, would you mind sending it the week after thanksgiving? I'm going to my parents house for the weekend and i'm a little worried my roommate won't see it and it'll get frozen while I'm gone, and I don't think plants like that too much! Sorry to be picky because you're doing me such a nice favor, but i'd feel awful if it all froze and died!


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Not a problem at all- just send me a PM then to remind me.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks so much, i really really appreciate! I will send you a PM in about a week to remind you  Thanks again!


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Karackle said:


> Maybe you have a male endler that grew up and is so small in your 75g tank that you keep missing him?


That's just it. The females are in the 20long. Not too easy to miss a fish there.

Maybe just having fish in another tank in the next room is all they need to breed?


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Hahahahaha it sure appears that way! Or whoever they did breed with last was SUPER fertile!!! But you're right, it should be hard to miss a male in a 20.....though i DID happen to miss one of the juvies that came in with my endlers that grew up to be a male, he was still pale colored when I did discovered him so he can't have been showing his colors for too long, but still, I did miss it for a little, but it sounds like you've had yours separated for a long time so i'd be surprised if you'd missed it for that long :tongue:


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I was trying to think of how long they've been separated, and I think it's been close to a year! The male guppies were the first fish I put in the 75g, and that was around January. I joined here asking questions when I first got my tank so my join date should also be the same as when I got my tank setup and moved fish into it.

Can guppies actually keep sperm for 11 months? 

I'll have to take a real good look at that 20long tomorrow.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Wow, that IS a LONG time! I've heard mostly reports of 6 months, but I guess it's possible if they're not using the sperm again each time the drop a clutch of fry, it's conceivable they could keep it longer? I'm surprised it would still be _viable_ sperm though! Maybe that's part of why you're only seeing a baby or two here and there though, there's just not as many getting dropped because most of the sperm were unable ti actually fertilize the eggs? I don't know, i'm just coming up with ideas off the top of my head :confused1: (i wish there was a :shrug: icon :hihi 

They are called the millions fish though, so who knows!


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I'm getting close to switching the 20long for the 29g, at which time I can check for a male.

But wait... I just remembered. There was one male that wasn't maturing like the rest. He was also a loner. He wasn't sick, but just seemed immature in comparison. So I kept him with the females for a little longer.

Could he be the dad of these fry? Maybe he was more mature than he led on!

Still, he has been out of the female tank for over 6 months.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Hahaha perhaps that is your answer then! 6 months is still a long time, but closer to the average amount of time that people say should wait to have a good chance the female isn't carrying sperm from previous mates anymore. And that's to have "a good chance" so I guess females have been known to keep sperm stored for longer than 6 months. 

Fish are crazy!


----------



## theemon (May 22, 2008)

Complexity said:


> That's just it. The females are in the 20long. Not too easy to miss a fish there.
> 
> Maybe just having fish in another tank in the next room is all they need to breed?


 
endlers females can hold sperm for upto 6 months, and thats like 2 or 3 different batches from 1 male. sorry if i overlooked something i just read the last page.


hey i hope your experiment goes well, i have personally mixed endlers into my "mixed" guppy tank and they have thrown some impressive male hybrids. the females are still plain. some have a little black/yellow/red at the end of there tails...


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

So 6 months seems to be pretty average, so then it would make sense Vicki that your females are still dropping fry i guess.

Thanks! I've heard that there are some beautiful hybrids, I can't wait to see what I come up with!  Everyone who has told me they've tried the same thing has said they've come up with beautiful fish, makes me that much more inspired!


----------



## FrostyNYC (Nov 5, 2007)

Karackle, please do post once you get some hybrid fry. Im really curious to see what they look like. Are you using any specific type of guppy? Are you using wild-type endlers?

There are a lot of hybrids posted on SwampRiverAquatics -- very nice ones, in fact. 

I just yesterday saw an all-black (well, mostly black) guppy at a Petco of all places, and it got me thinking of what that deep deep black and long black tail of the guppy would look like with some streaks of neon orange and green from an endler.  But the last thing I need right now is more tanks!


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I saw some Cobra-tailed Endlers the other day at an LFS, they were pretty cool!


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Karackle,

Check out these hybrids: http://swampriveraquatics.com/_wsn/page2.html. You are going to have some amazing fish!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Frosty - I have blackbar and peacock mixed endler females that i have in a tank with 1 yellow cobra guppy and 1 red and black guppy, I believe there are pics earlier in this thread of the boys. I'll definitely post pictures once i have some fry to post pictures of!  Also, that black guppy would probably make a really cool mix, i agree. I have a black bodied, leopard tailed guppy male i want to test out in round 2, should be a cool mix. Might have to keep my eye out for an all black male though 

LauraLee - That's pretty awesome! I'm really excited to see if the cobra guppy's pattern shows up on the endlers, though i think the deep red of the otehr guppy will make for a really cool mix as well!

Sewing - thanks for the link! Those really are gorgeous, I'm more excited now than ever!


----------



## Scott S. (Nov 30, 2008)

Hey all, this seems an appropriate place for my first post, because I know a little something about this. The rest of the site I am still reading and learing LOTS. :eek5: When I had a FW tank many years ago I had fancy tailed guppies and livebearers in the same tank. I ended up with some fish that had the body and markings of the endlers with the tails of the guppies. They were truly a gorgeous fish and something that I have thought about doing again. Now that I am back in the freshwater world. I did saltwater for awhile. 

You are going to end up with some really cool looking fish, and I agree with everyone else, we NEED to see pictures when they are big enough.
Scott


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks! Wow all the encouragement is great, makes me super excited!! I'll have to pass it on to the fish! :hihi: hopefully i'll have babies soon!  And then pics soon after that!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Not too much to update at the moment, the flame moss is growing, I put some floaters in, unfortunately I think most of the RRF I got sat in the PO too long because it's looking rather brown, but I'll give it a chance, siphon out what stops floating and sinks and hopefully a small bit will recover! I threw some duckweed in too. And my guppy grass from LauraLee (who generously threw in some extras including possibly more RRF) should be here today or tomorrow. So when they drop, the fry should have lots of places to hide! I have some pretty chubby females in there now! Should be soon i hope


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Your RRF will probably make it. Even a small piece should grow. If not, I have some from the generosity of Tex Gal. I asked for just 3 pieces to try it out, and she sent me tons more! They're growing nicely, putting out the roots they are known for.

Let us know when the new fry are dropped! Take pictures so we can see the plants and fry!


----------



## Scott S. (Nov 30, 2008)

I was going to say, what are you waiting for. Put 'em together, throw on a little Barry White and let's get it on.....


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Vicki - Thanks! I had to take most of it out today, it was all brown  LauraLee said that she has RRF and that if I didn't want it I would probably want to clean the plants before putting them in the tank, so I'll wait and see if any comes with the plants she sent me, if not I might take you up on that offer  I'll let you know! And don't worry, as soon as the fry drop I will definitely take pictures!!! :biggrin: 

Scott S - hahahaha if for some reason the females are not pregnant I will definitely try some Barry White next time! heehee :hihi:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Well so far I've been unable to find a mortar and pestle BUT

1 small bowl from Target 









1 round headed peg from a craft store 









and VOILA a makeshift mortar and pestle for less than $3.00  









heehee :biggrin: should do well for the baby guppies AND my bamboo shrimp


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Oh also, updates on the tank, not much to report. Females continue to get fatter I think so hopefully there will be babies soon  
The duckweed is proliferating unbelievably quickly in this tank, the flame moss is continuing to grow and i think the guppy grass has already started to grow, hopefully the plantlife will keep the fish happy


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Well, I apologize for the picture quality, but just wanted to post some updated pics with a bunch of floating plants (guppy grass and red foxtail as well as duckweed). Unfortunately the red root floater from TexGal sat too long at the post office during the thanksgiving holiday and therefore didn't make it so I'll have to get my hands on some more). I need to clean some algae off the glass that just started appearing in the past couple of days. Flame moss is doing well.

Sorry, no babies yet. 

Also, a couple changes I made, there is now a submersible heater and a sponge filter in the tank, I took out the box filter, left the blue corner filter in to seed the sponge filter. I'd like to pick up a small HOB I think once the sponge has been in there a while and gets established. I might just grab a nano HOB, I want it more for flow and as a place to add the crushed coral than as extra filtration, the sponge filter should do a good enough job with that, and it will take up less room than 2 in tank filters. 










added a dark sheet to the background:









Enjoy! 

*edit* wow algae on the glass shows up a lot more in pics than I thought! I'll get to cleaning that....um....now.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Karackle said:


> 1 round headed peg from a craft store


Now that's using your head!

Or is that the peg's head? :icon_lol:

The only thing that you'll have trouble with is the smooth bowl will allow the pieces to shoot out when you try to crush them, but it's not so bad. I did something similar before I found mine.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Complexity said:


> Now that's using your head!
> 
> Or is that the peg's head? :icon_lol:


Thanks! I guess it's both  



Complexity said:


> The only thing that you'll have trouble with is the smooth bowl will allow the pieces to shoot out when you try to crush them, but it's not so bad. I did something similar before I found mine.


HAHAHA yeah, i've experienced that a little already, luckily the bowl, despite being small, is much larger than I need for crushing a few pieces of food up, so the shooting pieces slide right back down into the bottom of the bowl for the most part


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Well I cleaned the glass in all my tanks today, inside and out, so I decided to take some new pictures of the breeding tank that don't look quite as dirty :tongue: As you can see, despite the look in the previous pics, the water is nice and clear and all the fish are happy  Still no babies though...sigh....i hate waiting!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

*Babies!*

I was peeking at the tank this morning and noticed some movement near the heater. On further inspection I saw a baby! After looknig around some more I found at least 3 babies! 

Now I'm a LITTLE worried about them because they were sort of resting on the bottom instead of swimming around and hiding in the plants, but they were all swimming around some, and don't look they have yolk sacs that are too big or anything, so I'll have to see how they're doing when I get home! 

2 of the female endlers are on the small side so I'm thinking that's why I only saw a few babies, because it was one of them that was looking thin this morning. 

I'm SO EXCITED! I hope they do well!!!! :biggrin:

I hope this means the other ladies will be popping out babies soon!


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Congrats!! :thumbsup:

Can't wait till they're big enough to show off their colors and get some pics!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks!

I know! Me neither!!! I Can't wait to see what they look like!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Well, this morning I saw 3 little babies hanging out on the bottom, and when I got home from work there were at least 3 little babies swimming around near the surface hiding in the floating plants, and when I fed some live baby brine shrimp, they were eating them! I'll take that as a good sign! :biggrin:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Well they don't look like anything special yet, but I managed to snap a couple decent pictures of the happy babies! Enjoy!

with flash:









without flash:


----------



## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

Are you using a sponge filter? For guppies I would opt for something better like an HOB. Mines ate and pooped a LOT, especially when they start reproducing a lot. One female fancy guppy of mines gave way to a little over 60 babies. Their numbers explode exponentially. Feeder guppies lay about half or less of that amount.

You got the right plants in there, but try to group some of it to a corner where the babies can run to and the adults can't due to it being too dense. Babies also seem to stay around near the top more from my experience.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks Natty, yeah I've got a sponge filter as well as a second corner filter, the sponge filter was just added a couple of days ago so I plan to leave the 2 filters for a while to let the sponge seed and then I will remove the corner filter in favor an HOB (it is in the plan, but there were only 5 fish in there for a long time). They are endler females bred with male guppies, don't know how that will effect the number of babies dropped, but there were only 3 babies from the first drop, i'm pretty sure it was from one of the smaller females so there will probably be more from others. I also siphon out the debris / waste from the bottom 2-3 times a week to help in that area as well. Thanks for the advice though, I'll definitely be adding more / better filtration in the near future


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Saw you edited while I was writing back, the plants the babies are hiding in (in the pics i just posted) are floating up in the top right corner pretty densely, the red foxtail doesn't show up well in the pictures, but it makes the plant bunch nice and dense for the babies. Some of the guppy grass just refuses to stay floating though! :tongue:


----------



## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

How come no substrate? Substrate help keep the gunk from being so visible and it contains a lot of the beneficial bacterias that you need.

What you can actually do if you get the HOB is connect it into the sponge filter tube. You'll need protection over the intake anyway as to not suck in any baby fish.

You should see my guppy project I had years ago. I had well over 100-150 of them in a small 5 gallon container. Oddly enough, they survived pretty well but eventually died due to the potentially fatal diseases, etc, that eventually was caused by overcrowding. I was only 8 or something so I didn't know nor was I expecting them to reproduce so much. I went from 10 to 30~ and so on. It's really fun to feed a whole school of tiny fish. I would dip my finger in the water to make it moist, dip it in some fish flakes and put my finger in there.

I had bullfrog tadpoles too. They love eating the food off my finger. Whatever you do, don't feed them live food like bloodworms. They're very susceptible to ich......and a few other issues relating to stress and water quality, unlike my pleco who seems invincible.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

that's a lot of babies in a 5g bucket, hahaha, i'm impressed you kept them alive at all! :tongue: Tadpoles too huh? very cool! 

I've actually been thinking about adding substrate for that reason, I'd heard it was a lot easier to maintain a clean tank with a bare bottom, but the more I've been thinking about it, the more i've been thinking that substrate helps maintain a stable tank so perhaps it's not a bad idea. 

The only live foods I feed are baby brine shrimp, I don't think there's a big risk of Ich with them because I use R/O water to make the brine for them. Otherwise it's powder / powdered and frozen food. 

I never thought about connecting the HOB to the sponge filter, not a bad plan, I'll have to see if I can rig it, otherwise I'll definitely be putting a sponge or something else over the filter intake to protect the babies of course!


----------



## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

No.....scratch what I said. The best filter is neither an HOB or sponge....well in a way.

What you need is something like this:










An undergravel filter commonly sold in your LFS/LPS such as petco or petclub. It sections a small area at the bottom of your tank. You add gravel to the top of it so there's a space beneath the gravel. This helps keep your gravel clean as well. One major problem I have with keeping fish with substrate is that the substrate gets dirty relatively fast. If you're able to connect it with an HOB, then that'll work lots better than the HOB by itself. It also helps prevent baddies that live in your substrate, especially when it gets dirty. Things like worms, planaria comes to mind.


----------



## Down_Shift (Sep 20, 2008)

karackle's baby factory


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

IMO if your plan for this tank is just a fry grow-out tank, you're much better of with no substrate or UGF. You've got such a low bioload in the tank that I wouldn't worry about needing more biological filtration than your filter can provide. Sponge filters are great biological filters; probably the best you can get. Corner filters are good, too. HOBs are easy and also excellent filthers; you just have to make sure to take precautions that the intake is protected and that the water flow isn't too strong for the fry. 

In truth, if you're maintaining 2-3 water changes a week, you really don't need to worry about filtration, period. Having a bare bottom keeps it easy to do manual mechanical filtration during the water change- just like you're doing. Water changes and good, frequent feeding are key to fry growth. The really big fish farms that mass-produce fish typically maximize their fry growth (and therefore their profits) by either setting up continuously circulating systems, or doing multiple _*daily*_ _*100%*_ water changes.

Your fry all have nice round bellies- that's an excellent sign! :thumbsup:


----------



## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

Oh so this tank is just a fry grow out tank and not a breeding tank in general?

I thought with all the plants, it was made to house all the guppies/endlers together. I've done it successfully a bunch of times, but I guess that'll help prevent the risk. Don't underestimate how much crap they can make....if you set it up so that its more than enough, then that just means you'll have less to deal with.

More than good is always a welcoming thing.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Hmmm yeah I probably wouldn't go UGF, I've never had good luck with WQ when using one even when properly maintained. I'll definitely keep the sponge filter since it does have the double benefit of being baby safe and excellent for biological filtration. How much $ I can spare will directly relate to how soon I switch the corner filter to an HOB if I decide to go that route, but of course I'll definitely take precautions with putting a sponge over the intake if I do get an HOB. 

I'm worried about adding gravel at the moment because of the new babies, so I'll probably just maintain my 2-3 or more weekly water changes and mechanically filtering out the junk by siphoning it out during water changes. 

It's sort of a combination of a fry grow-out and housing everyone together, mostly the only adults in there will be the mommas I think. No matter what, I definitely agree that over filtering is best, especially when raising babies!  I wish I had the means to setup an auto water change, continuous flow type of system, but this will have to do for now :tongue: 

And yes, I was watching after I fed and the babies were definitely eating and now have nice round bellies! Their bellies looked pretty round when I got home too, so they must've found some food hiding in the moss as well  Yay for happy, full babies! Heehee 

Thanks for all the advice on filtration! I'll have to think about what the best option is, and about whether or not to add gravel.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Babies were alive and well this morning, already starting to get adventurous! They were swimming around near the surface out of the cover of the plants  

I have to do a water change tonight, I'm terrified of sucking up the babies though, they do mostly stay near the surface and I suck the water off the bottom, but is there anything I can put over the hose that won't allow the babies through but will allow the poop and everything else through?


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If you have a piece of rigid tubing you can attach to the tip of the airline tubing that would give you more control.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

ooooh, good plan! I don't have a rigid piece of tubing here but I have some at work that I can grab, I will have to do that!  Thanks for the tip! 

In other news, all 3 babies were munching their little hearts out on the live baby brine shrimp I fed again today, they were venturing way out of the plants to get at them too! They were venturing pretty far out of the plants before I even fed too. 

I think it's true what people have said, that the fry dropped by endlers are larger than those dropped by guppies, these little ones are a couple days old but they seem to be closer to the size of the guppy babies I had at 1-2 weeks! And I check the tank many times daily in search of babies, so I don't think it's an issue of me missing them, I think I found them when they'd JUST been dropped because when I found them they were hanging out on the bottom and are now swimming around on the top. 

I'm a bit excited, can you tell? :hihi: :tongue:


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Happy Day! Babies!!! They do look larger than guppy babies. Looks like your breeder tank is getting more plants in it as well!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks! They do seem bigger don't they? And yes, more plants! LauraLeeLLBP VERY nicely sent me some of her extra guppy grass to put in the tank, she also sent me some extra sunset hygro she had which I planted in my 30g to replace the red foxtail that was only doing well on the top 3 inches, so I pulled those stems and put the fluffy healthy top bits into the guppy tank as well  and now the babies have more places to hide!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Came home after a week away and there are LOTS of babies now! All different sizes! I'm so excited to see what colors they start turning into! :biggrin: I don't think the biggest female has dropper her fry yet, so when she does there should be TONS in there :tongue:

Guppy grass and flame moss are growing really well giving the babies lots of places to hide. The roots on the duckweed are starting to get longer too. Just need to get some red root floater or another floater that grows nice long roots and I think it'll be perfect in there for babies


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Have you tried letting any of that Sunset Hygro float? I think it looks really nice as a floater; what I sent you had been floating in my 46gal for about a month...


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

I want pictures!:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

LauraLee - i haven't really tried floating the hygro, i planted it in all of my other tanks :tongue: I can't remember if I left any little pieces floating in there though, i'll have to check  If it doesn't take in my 20g though, I'll probably pop it into this tank 

Sewing - hahahaha i'll try to get some, none of the babies have any color yet though, they're still too small, but i'll see what i can do


----------



## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

sewingalot said:


> I want pictures!:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:


Kyle should make this mandatory....
Picture>Text...at least in most cases.


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Baby fry are cute and I NEED to see them! Natty's right on this one, with your journal, I need pictures. Withdrawing......will....have....to....call in sick.....


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Super congratulations on all your fry! I want pictures, too. Even if they are colorless, they're still cute!

Any idea how many fry you have now?


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Hahahahaa ok ok ok! Then pictures you all will get!  

I'll take and post some tonight! (Sorry for the delay....holiday season + grad school applications = Kara hasn't been online / photographing her tanks much recently ) 

I'm not sure on a head count but I'd say 15-20? So no, not hundreds yet or anything....but a fair few! And I think the last large female has yet to drop...it's hard to say though because a) i'm awful at eyeballing numbers and b) there's LOTS of hiding places in the tank now!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Alrighty, you asked for them! Here are baby pictures. None of them are very good....the babies were not staying in one place for me and the camera kept focusing on the plants instead of the fish, but here's what I got, enjoy! 























































And a quick FTS....please excuse the lighting I forgot to move it up slightly for the picture and please excuse the bottom...this was taken right after feeding and before a much overdo siphoning. 

But I wanted to show how the duckweed, moss and guppy grass have filled in!  










Enjoy!!!


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Hellooooo guppy grass! Is that now about 2x the amount I sent you? Give it another month and you won't be able to find the tank... LOL

Can't wait for the babies to start showing some color... :thumbsup:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

lauraleellbp said:


> Hellooooo guppy grass! Is that now about 2x the amount I sent you? Give it another month and you won't be able to find the tank... LOL


Hahahahahhaa it's definitely at LEAST doubled from what you sent me! :tongue: In another month I might be able to find the tank, but I doubt I'll be able to find the fish!!! :hihi:



lauraleellbp said:


> Can't wait for the babies to start showing some color... :thumbsup:


You and me both!!!!! 

I seem to have an inordinately large number of girls though....

I did discover a tiny boy guppy in my 20g, survivor from the guppy females last drop I think, and the female endlers in there are looking REALLY pregnant, so I'm going to have to put those girls in the 10g also and see what I get!


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

So adorable! I love the 3rd picture where you see the tiny fish (close to the bottom) next to the (seemingly) huge thermometer! The contrast really shows just how small fry really are.

They are definitely looking wonderful! Can't wait for them to color up, as well. And it's not so bad getting more females because you won't have to worry about the males harassing the females too much since there will be more females than males. And just think of the next set of babies will look like! You're going to end up with hundreds of fry very soon!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Hahahaha I know! The thermometer looks GIGANTIC and it's actually quite a small thermometer :hihi: That little guy is TINY though, i think from a very recently dropped batch of fry :biggrin: 

And thanks! I think they look good too! Nice and plump! heeheehee And that's a good point about the females not getting harassed as much if there are more of them than males, but I just want to see some pretty males darn it!!! :tongue:


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Soooooo Cute. I love the second picture. The baby is so funny! And his shadow in the background is even more adorable! Yeah! Pictures of babies! Better than chocolate. Wow, those plants grew a lot. I love the moss. Thanks for the pictures. :icon_mrgr:biggrin:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Too some pictures today of all the tanks....here's a FTS and a few plant shots, and I think I maybe got 1 good baby shot. 

Also, I think I saw new fry hanging out on the bottom of the tank this evening. Sweet! :biggrin:














































enjoy!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

sewingalot said:


> Soooooo Cute. I love the second picture. The baby is so funny! And his shadow in the background is even more adorable! Yeah! Pictures of babies! Better than chocolate. Wow, those plants grew a lot. I love the moss. Thanks for the pictures. :icon_mrgr:biggrin:


Heeheehee I'm glad you enjoyed!!! I'll try to get more shots, they were not cooperating today at all though so there's only really 1 with babies in it.....ah well, so it goes!


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Have you done a count yet on the babies? How are they doing? I am really excited about this progress. Lauraleelbp was right about you turning this into a tank full of plants.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Well there are at LEAST 20, but I think probably more because I see some babies in there that looks really tiny and are hiding in the moss, I'm thinking they were probably dropped last night :biggrin: No babies showing color just yet though grrrrr :angryfire Soon I hope though!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

And yes, i think i am growing a tank full of plants AND guppies :tongue:


----------



## connordude27 (Jun 14, 2008)

cool tank and all the pics look great

how long did it take for the duckweed to spread all across the top?


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks! 

It did not take very long for the duckweed to spread, a couple weeks at most. Getting some out is on the agenda for today, it's starting to pile on top of itself and I don't want to end up with rotting under plants!


----------



## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

hey im doing the same thing. i needed to buy $1 more at my lfs to use a $10 coupon so i bought this really awesome green cobra guppy. ive got my endler female in the 10G with him so in about a month we should see some babiez!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Awesome! I can't wait to see pictures! 

I've love to see a picture of the green cobra too, sounds beautiful!!!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Well, still no babies showing color yet:angryfire but there are LOTS of babies now!!! 

I thought I would post some updated tank shots  

FTS: 









Tried to get some pictures of babies...none are great, but you can see there are lots of them  













































And another momma who looks like she's about to drop some fry! :biggrin:









Based on the number of fry and the sizes of the babies of various ages, I think i've got 2 sets of drops from most of the moms. There are some babies that look about a month old, and a WHOLE bunch of new ones in the last few days 

Oh and it certainly is called duck*weed* for a reason! I scooped out 3/4 of what was in the tank a week ago, it left about 1/2 the tank covered (it was piled up in some areas!) and a week later, the WHOLE surface was covered and piled up in some areas already! I scooped out enough so that only about 1/4 of the surface is covered now :tongue: hopefully that gives me a little more time until I need to scoop again


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Look at all those precious babies! Are they coloring up yet? Sure there are only two drops in there? Seems like there are tons.


----------



## Neoman (Apr 4, 2005)

Wow I can't wait to see how these babies turn out. I've been thinking of doing something similar to this for a while now.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Sewing - well I think it's 2 drops, but there are 6 females in there, so yes, LOTS of babies!  None are coloring up a whole lot yet, but some of the younger ones are starting to look darker, so i've got high hopes that they'll color up more as they grow!  

Neoman - glad to know there are others that this might be helpful to!!! :biggrin:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Well I just wanted to post some updated pictures. LauraLee sent me some red root floater and a bunch of extra other plants including some (i think) fissidens and taiwan moss, and some suesswassertang, along with some more guppy grass and a few various other plants! I tied a couple sticks together and to a piece of slate I had and I tied the fissidens to that and I tied the taiwan onto another stick and tied it horizontally to a rock (i needed more surface area :tongue neither are pretty but I just wanted to try and let them grow out a bit and then I will decide where to put them  

Apparently this tank has become a guppy/endler _and_ moss growout tank :hihi: 

What do I do with suesswassertang? Would it do best floating? tied to wood? tied to rock? I have no experience with it but I'm really liking the way it looks so I'd love to let it grow out some! 

Anyway, here are some pictures for your viewing pleasure 

SO MANY FLOATING PLANTS :hihi:









with the moss tied down to its new rocks:









taiwan (like i said, it's not pretty, but I need the surface area....i may see if I can find a piece of DW for it though)









And the fissidens branches....this one may actually turn out to look cool when it grows out so I may have a mini moss tree in one of my tanks soon :tongue:


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Love the moss. Wait, where are the babies, lol! I see them hiding, they must be happy.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks!!! i'm excited to see how the moss grows out! heehee yeah the fishies certainly seem to be happy! They're growing well and there seems to be more that keep showing up so i think everyone's happy, hope so anyway!  :biggrin:


----------



## Porkchop (Feb 9, 2009)

Yeah...this is very neat and interesting so far. You're doing exactly what I wanted to try once before. Nice job with your plants you have stuck in there. There is nowhere locally for me to buy them and the ones I've managed to get just end up and die. I have no idea how you guys grow plants like you do...but they sure are nice.

Just keep us informed if/when the colors start showing up. I'm subscribing to this thread...nice work.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks! 

So far the only coloration I've seen is half black on a few of the babies, I believe they came from the half black with leopard tail guppy momma (the only momma that is a guppy) and there is a chance they are full guppies, but i think they are hybrids. Time will tell. 

Thanks for the compliments on the plants as well, this tank is just tank full of easy easy floaters and some moss. I wonder what plants you tried that gave you so much trouble? This is certainly the place to ask questions about where you might have gone wrong and what to try to start again! There are some VERY easy to grow plants that you could start out with!


----------



## Porkchop (Feb 9, 2009)

I've tried moneywort and I have a few pieces that are still hanging in there. I have an Amazon Sword that is just "there". I've tried the hornwort...it always dies. I've had various moss, it dies. Just about everything I try to grow craps out on me...sucks.

I think maybe it's my water or I just don't have things in line like I need to. I'm reading though, here and one other forum about aquariums. I'll get it sooner or later I'm sure. Just keep us posted as to your findings with your fish please!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Sounds good, it does take a little figuring out to get the hang of it, but you'll learn a lot more than you needed on these forums! It's a wonderful resource! 

I'll definitely keep posted on the babies. I'll try to get pictures soon!


----------



## frogmanjared (Feb 21, 2008)

Karackle said:


> What do I do with suesswassertang? Would it do best floating? tied to wood? tied to rock? I have no experience with it but I'm really liking the way it looks so I'd love to let it grow out some!


I tied some pieces to a small, flat rock with fishing line and they filled out quite nicely... post #20 (right after they were tied) #23 (about 1.5 months growth) http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/planted-nano-tanks/72602-5-gallon-hex-update-12-16-a-2.html


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Well, I know I haven't been around much recently, I switched jobs recently and I don't have as much down-time during the day unfortunately, but I just wanted to say that the babies are FINALLY starting to show some color!!!! I will try to get pictures this week, tomorrow if I can


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

About time, Karackle! I've missed you around here. Congrats on the new job, how do you like it? Yes, new pictures coming up!!!


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Wow, you were gone while I was gone! I hope you can come back more often. And congrats on the new job from me, too!

Looking forward to the new pics! :smile:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks to you both! I missed being here too, I hope that I can get back on here more often too, my life is a little crazy right now, I'll be out of town a lot the next couple of weeks, hopefully that means i'll have down time to comment, if not add pictures. I'll try to take a bunch of pictures before I leave and upload them while i'm away  But i will try to get pictures of the babies that are showing colors tomorrow (i didn't have time to get it down tonight...sorry!) 

More to come soon though I promise!!!


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Trust me, I understand being busy. Looking forward to the pictures whenever you get a chance, and hoping for downtime so you can hang around here a little more next week. :smile:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Wow, i definitely failed at getting pictures before I went away, I wasn't sure what the internet situation would be though either, so I didn't bring my computer. Sigh. Anyway, I am finally back and don't have as many travel plans and should be marginally less busy in the evenings. I've missed it here. 

I'll have lots of time Friday to post with pictures, but for now i'll give a brief update on this tank and I will try to get at least 1 picture tonight when I get home from work. 

Some of the older males and females, makes especially, are showing color. However, unfortunately, I think i've got pure endlers and guppies in there, i haven't seen anything yet that looks hybridized.  but i will take pictures and you can tell me what you think. I think I am going to throw a male guppy in the tank and just leave him there now, i removed the female guppy a while ago so the only large adult females are Endlers. And of the smaller fish, there are some females showing the half black with a leopard tale coloring of the momma guppy, and there are a number of males showing endler - like coloration, so hopefully i've got some hybrids in the younger generations that aren't showing too much color yet. I have a couple of really young ones showing a black dot in the center of their tale, and some that are looking half-black (a coloring i've noticed that shows up quite quickly). So we shall see what happens. 

The plants in the tank are doing well too. The flame moss is really tall, the babies love it. Everything that LauraLeeLLBP sent me is doing great too, so thanks again Laura Lee!!! The taiwan moss is filling in well, the fissidens (i think that's what it is) is slowly but surely acclimating to the tank and starting to put out new fronds, the Suesswassertang is nice and green and I think it has grown some. Of course the guppy grass is doing well and so is the RRF. I cleared out a large batch guppy grass the other week so the mosses could get more light, and because it was taking over the tank, i love that plant, I am pretty sure it alone has prevented algae from taking over my little, not truly planted, probably overlit 10g breeding tank with it's magical growing and nutrient sucking abilities! Helps keep levels in check with the massive number of fish in that tank too!  I also removed most of the duckweed before adding the RRF that LauraLee sent and it has not yet taken over the tank again, the RRF seems to be the better competitor because it has proliferated (though more slowly than the duckweed does which I am thankful for) but it also seems to hae kept the duckweed in check, there is definitely still some in there, it grows in the gaps between the RRF, but it has not taken over the tan a week after i cleared out 90% of it, so i think we've reached a happy medium there. YAY!  :tongue: 

OK that is my massive update, probably more than you wanted to know, and possibly you didn't even read it all. But stay tuned for pictures this evening!!!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

As promised, PICTURES! 

A full tank shot so you can see my mass of plants and moss since that has become something of a growout tank for me as well as a breeding tank, and you can see all the fish in here, it's time to thin it out! 










And now a whole bunch of pictures trying to show the colors in some of these little guys. Aside from one that is more pale than the rest, i think most of them look like pure endlers, but I'd love input on that of course! You can also see some of the more guppy colored (half black with leopard tails) babies in here, i'm pretty sure these are full guppies, but again, input welcome!  Please excuse the blurriness and the fact i had to use a flash, i don't know how else to get semi-decent shots of moving targets :tongue:
































































And finally, the male that seems to be paler and maybe more iridescent than the others, but it may be that he's just developing his color still










enjoy!


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Hey they've really grown!

IDK much about guppy genetics, but you may not see any visible signs of hybridization until the 2nd generation... especially if recessive genes are involved.

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and guess that fancy guppy traits are often recessive traits, and the "wild-type" endler traits are likely mostly dominant... if that is the case, then it would make sense that most if not all of the offspring of the first generation of guppyxendler will show for endler, but will carry those recessive genes, which will then show in 2nd gereration crosses.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks LauraLee! And that is actually an excellent point about the recessive and dominant traits, I don't know why I didn't think of it. There are definitely guppy and endler looking males and females in there now, so maybe some of the really tiny ones will show some hybrid characteristics as they grow. It's a frustrating waiting game :tongue: I want results NOW! :hihi: Now that I am going to be away less and less busy I will start taking better care of this tank again and get back to my daily or every other daily water changes which should help the babies grow faster I think too. I can't get mad if it's sort of my fault they're not growing as quickly as I'd like I suppose :hihi: Don't get me wrong, I do water changes, the WQ is good, but I know that extra clean, fresh water helps stimulate baby growth.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I can definitely relate to staying busy... I haven't done water changes on my tanks at home in 2 months... which is exactly why I've always stuck with low tech tanks. They take periods of neglect much better than higher light tanks LOL (It's on the agenda for this weekend, however.)


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Hahaha yes, low light tanks definitely seem to be easier to maintain! Mine have taken well to neglect, occasionally, they even grow better when neglected (i assume due to 'fertilizer' build up from the fish or something :tongue but water changes are on my agenda as well...probably for next week some time, I have a wedding to go to this weekend....


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Looking great!  I think Complexity is right about the hybrids not showing up for a while. Something about dominant genes. How are the fish doing? They look quite happy.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks! Yeah LauraLee was saying the same thing about the genetics and it's definitely a good point. some of the smaller ones should be second or third generation so hopefully they'll be showing their colors soon. I might even pull out the first generation moms to help get the dominant Endler genes out of the mix. 

Otherwise though the fish all seem to be doing well. I need to get back into doing daily water changes now that I am less busy so that hopefully they'll grow faster, but otherwise they see to be happy


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Karackle said:


> OK that is my massive update, probably more than you wanted to know, and possibly you didn't even read it all. But stay tuned for pictures this evening!!!


I'm finally catching up on your thread, and wanted you to know that I read and enjoyed every single word! From one talkative poster to another, I've been known to question if anyone actually read what I wrote at the end like that, so I wanted to be sure you know that your "massive" update was thoroughly enjoyed!

Now to look at your pics! :smile:


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

sewingalot said:


> I think Complexity is right about the hybrids not showing up for a while.


That was Laura Lee who said that. I'm too clueless to even make a guess on the subject! :redface:

I have no idea how I got hybridized fish from my first try other than to think that perhaps my "endler female" was a hybrid herself. I got her as a tiny fry in a tank of mixed endlers and guppies so it's entirely possible.

When my laptop is back from the shop (I'm on a spare at the moment), I'll try to get some pictures of the adult females that grew from my fry. Most of them have interesting tails in that they're mostly clear, but have a leopard pattern on the top and bottom edges of the tails. Just a touch of yellow and black.

I also got leopard looking fish from some of my fry. Four males with yellow/black leopard looking tails. But I never liked their tail shape because they're squared and not rounded.

What I find interesting is how I got different designs and patterns, but they were repeated in more than one fish. So there's definitely some kind of genetics going on, but from the little I've read, guppy/endler genetics is a very complex subject so I won't even attempt to guess how I got what I got.

I did post a picture of one of my multicolored hybrids in my 75g journal. Let me go grab a link to it so everyone can see it. I think they are the prettiest ones I got of the whole mix.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Okay, here's one of the leopard looking males I got. He's in the middle. Sorry that his tail is messed up. All of the male guppies in that tank have messed up tails. I've never been able to figure out which fish is biting their tails. But for the most part, other than the tails looking bad, the fish seem to be okay.

Look at the fish further back, between the blue and orange guppy. I got 4 males like that one!










Here's a blurry pic of one of my multicolored males. I love these fish the most! The other multicolored male that I didn't get a pic of is more pastel than this one. Maybe the pastel fish you have, Karackle, will turn out something close to what I have?










Well, that looks like the only two I managed to photograph. Fish are so funny. When I'm trying to take pics of my plants, all the fish swim to get in the way. But when I want to get a picture of them, they suddenly get camera shy!


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Wait, my other multicolored hybrid is in the first pic. He's just really hard to see because he's blending in with the rock.

See how the fish seem to form a line: orange, leopard, blue... and then in the background is the multicolored one. He's blurry and dark, but it does show a little of what he looks like.


----------



## timme278 (Jan 1, 2009)

Complexity said:


> Wait, my other multicolored hybrid is in the first pic. He's just really hard to see because he's blending in with the rock.
> 
> See how the fish seem to form a line: orange, leopard, blue... and then in the background is the multicolored one. He's blurry and dark, but it does show a little of what he looks like.


i spotted him lol

looks good, also if you want to "breed" endlers then keep them on their own and separate the guppies out and all guppy fry showing hybridization <spelling lol

looks good  and onces your females get older they will have more fry, one of my female endlers had 3 fry the 1st time and 7 fry yesterday :eek5:


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

So it _is_ the second generation that starts showing the hybridization (you spelled it right!)? Then that means my female endler must have been a hybrid.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Vicki - I'm glad to know you read and enjoyed every word of my massive post!  Thanks for commenting! Hmm...given the slight leopard coloring on the endler female and subsequent gorgeous hybrid babies, it sounds like your female probably was (is?) a hybrid. Thanks for taking the time to post those pictures here for me!  So I guess that bodes well for me and my young'uns in the tank! I think I'll take the large original female endlers out of the tank and let the younger generation(s) do their thing and see what happens  From what I've read though you are correct, guppy genetics are crazy and complicated and i won't begin to try and figure it out other than seeing what happens in the generations to come! :hihi:

timme278 - thanks, actually though the whole point here is that I am actually trying to hybridize the two and see what fun colors I get, I purposely put endler females with male guppies in the beginning. But thanks! And yes, I actually did notice that my younger females did seem to drop fewer fry than than the older, larger ones (back when I had fewer fish and could tell when a female dropped fry and which one it was! ) 

ALSO I just realized I still have 2 female endlers in my 20g tank that have been on their own for quite some time and I haven't seen either of them get fat in a while, I think it's a safe bet that they're not carrying any residual sperm they were only in with a male briefly until his coloring started appearing, all 3 were very young and small then too and there were more females in the tank then too. Maybe I will try putting a male guppy in there with them and then put them in my breeding tank and see what happens....I need to head to the fish store and see if they want some of my babies! haha


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Complexity said:


> That was Laura Lee who said that. I'm too clueless to even make a guess on the subject! :redface:


OMG, you are right. :icon_redf Sorry Laura Lee (and Vicki) for misquoting there. I love your fish hybrids. I am glad to see my male guppy isn't the only one with a beat up tail. Not that I am glad to see others with this problem. I am shutting up now. LOL! :smile:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Hahahaha Sara you crack me up!  No need to shut up, we know what you mean! And it's definitely hard to keep male guppies with perfect tales...unfortunately I actually think that my male endlers in the 30g picked too much on the male guppy tales (thinking they were the large females of their species i imagine) and i think it lead to the poor boys not making it....this is the only reason I hesitate to get another male guppy....not sure where it will be best to put him after mating....perhaps right into the breeding tank....we shall see. 

Either way, I think it's time to get the adult female pure endlers out of the 10g so that there aren't too many (presumably) dominant endler genes in there, plus, they're making the most waste so it gives me a little more time until i have to thin out the population :tongue:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

So I was trying to take a picture of my fat happy Oto in my 30g last night when i lost my balance while squatting and accidentally pushed a random button on my camera...the result? I figured out how to change the shutter speed! woohoo! 

So I still need to play with the settings as these are rather dark. But I did manage to snap a few good shots of the inhabitants.

Oh and please excuse the fact that my fish look morbidly obese, they were eating live baby brine shrimp for dinner and getting quite full as you can see! :tongue:

Enjoy! 



















I'm beginning to think that some of the younger generations are going to have a more hybrid look because they are not half black, but have a black spot in the center of their tail, much like this endler-lookin' fella: 









Blurrily in the background center you can see one of the spotted tails I mean









The kind of blurry male in the background there is the pastel one. 








​









Enjoy! :biggrin:*
*


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Really great pics! Those babies are still too young to figure out what colors they will have. It takes seemingly forever for the males to mature enough to see their colors and patterns. It's cool to see that one with the spot.

Keep taking pics for updates. I'm enjoying seeing them grow up!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks!!! And yes, they are certainly too young, i've also found that Endler coloration takes MUCH longer to show up than guppy coloration (at least half-black coloration) so the dot could be a relic of the red guppy who had a darker spot on his tail, but who knows! only time will tell. 

Now that I have figured out how to take better pictures of the fish, I'll certainly try to get more shots of them as they grow and color up!


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Very good looking fish you got there. If only all falls could be so lucky!


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If the "fancy" traits are recessive, you'll probably want to cross this generation with a fancy guppy...


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Sara - thanks! and I didn't quite fall over, it was catching myself that made me press the button :tongue: but I still agree with you on that! :hihi: 

lauralee - once again, an excellent point. I actually have 2 virgin female endlers that I want to put in with a guppy (just the 3 fish) so i know that they are going to have his offspring, and then I think I'll put all 3 in the breeding tank and remove the older females and then remove the 2 younger females once they drop their fry but leave the male guppy in there to get some more guppy genes in the mix.  That's the current plan anyway. I have to clean my desk so i have room to set up the tank for the trio first though :hihi: actually more importantly, i need to hook up a filter to another tank so i can insta-cycle a 5 for the trio


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Just wanted to post a few pictures of the new male guppy I got to add to the breeding mix....he's currently in a small QT tank to keep an eye on him for disease, he's a PetSmart guppy....normally i don't do petsmart fish, but I was there picking up a new filter for the 5g so naturally i had to take a look at the fish and this guy caught my eye, he's gorgeous (IMHO anyway ) 

He's mostly white with a red on either side of his head, his dorsal fin is red and white pin striped and his tail is white in the center and fades to dark red on the edges. 

He looks a little more orange in the pictures than he actually is, but you get the idea  

The New Addition:



























enjoy!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Oh also, I would love some advice...

Do we think it would be a good idea to pull out the males that look like Endlers and put them in another tank for now and throw a male guppy or two in the tank to get some more guppy genes in the mix? I know there would still be young males that just don't have color yet, but it probably couldn't hurt to get some of the (probably) dominant gene carriers out of the tank right? 

I know the whole thing is kind of a crap shoot free for all at this point, but it was an idea i just had so I thought I'd throw it out there 

As always, TIA


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Beautiful new addition! What a find. I would pull the males that look like endlers for now if they are anything like common guppies. The males are faster than the fancy males due to the short fins in my opinion. By the way, what kind of filter did you wind up getting?


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks! I thought he was perty too! :hihi: Faster swimming to get to the ladies is a good point I hadn't thought about, endler-lookin' males out it is  

The filters in this tank are both air driven, one a sponge filter, one a corner filter like this and this

*edit* unless you meant the filter in the QT, in which case it is running the Red Sea nano from my 5.5g because i upgraded the 5.5 to an AC mini/20.


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

He sure is easy on the eyes. 

How do the sponge filters work exactly? I have thought about getting one for my fry grow out tank, but I have never seen one in person. I meant the QT tank, but I am glad to hear you have gotten new filters for everything. :thumbsup:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Heehee thanks! 

The filters in the growout/breeding tank are actually not so new :tongue: 

the sponge filter plugs into an air pump and works on the same principal as an undergravel filter, the rising air bubbles pull the water through the filter. They're great filters for fry tanks, nowhere for the fry to get sucked in and they only make a gentle current.


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Ah, I get it. I definitely need to get one of those. I can't wait to see the babies he will make. :hihi: By the way, I posted some of my hybrids in my journal for you. See what you started?


----------



## purplecity (Jul 28, 2008)

what kind of moss is that tied to the rock, growing straight up


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Sara - yeah they are great fry tank filters. I'd recommend it for sure. The corner filter can probably be done without, but better to have more than not enough. I can't wait to see how his genetics factor in either. I've got a few more guppies coming from a member on here too, I'm going to pull any males that look like endlers from the group and put the male guppies in instead to get some more guppy genes in the mix. 

purplecity - That is flame moss. The babies love it, and it looks cool to boot! :biggrin:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Got 4 more guppy males last night from AMP on here, they are STUNNING I will try to get pictures tonight. Gorgeous and all different colors. I pulled the adult female endlers and adult male-looking endlers. Took the pure endler males out of my 30g and replaced them with the possible hybrid males. I brought the adults to my LFS, made sure they knew the females were probably pregnant with hybrid babies. 

I will try to get shots of the further new additions this evening.


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Looking forward to the updates. If I took in endler hybrids, they would say "Those are feeders." You are lucky to live in an area that have exotic fish!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Well the fish I brought in are actually pure endlers from the original breeding batch, but the moms are probably pregnant with hybrids, I thought they might take them as feeders too, they didn't mind, they are just going to mark it clearly.


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

I wish I lived near you. I would glad take pure endlers breed with hybrids. :hihi: I have been looking for endlers for over a year now.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Oh no i wish I had known! I would have sent them to you instead! sorry!!!



sewingalot said:


> I wish I lived near you. I would glad take pure endlers breed with hybrids. :hihi: I have been looking for endlers for over a year now.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

GRRR I finally got a chance to take pictures of the new male guppies, I loaded them on my computer, edited them and planned to upload them to photobucket and then post them today, but i forgot the last critical step of uploading them before I went to bed! So i can't post them now until I get home which is too bad because I really have nothing to do at work today :icon_lol: :tongue:

So stay tuned for pictures early this evening when I get home from work!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Pictures of my pretty male guppies! The only one I didn't get a good clear shot of is the blue one, but the rest of the pictures came out pretty well and show the colors quite well, just picture them all with an irridescent sheen and you'll get the idea. The pineapple colored one is possibly the most gorgeous guppy i've ever seen, I've never seen one quite the same color. All of them are stunning, but he is something special!

Here are the pictures, some of them are a bit blurry, but they show the colors well!! 














































my favorite pineapple/peach colored guy









an awesome shot (IMVHO)









this one shows the blue/silver iridescence that is on all of them pretty well:



























Enjoy!


----------



## amp (Dec 2, 2008)

Looking good!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Amp - Thanks! I was going to PM you in response to your iTrader message to tell you they are doing fantastic and to look at the pictures, but then I saw you already posted here!  Thanks again, they are so beautiful!!! :biggrin: I'll have to try again to get a picture of the blue, he looks white in most of the pictures.


----------



## suebe333 (Feb 17, 2009)

Very nice ,, I am looking for a redish female , if either of y'all have any let me know


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Suebe - thanks!  I don't have any female guppies atm and any females that grow up to be red will likely be endler hybrids in my tank, but I would try PMing AMP to see if he has any because his fish are gorgeous and very healthy!


----------



## amp (Dec 2, 2008)

I have some that are silver bodied, red / black spotted kinda snake skin tailed, but none that are red bodied. Did I send you one of those Suebe333? Im going to try to find some more females with colored bodies since all I have are either yellow or silver.


----------



## suebe333 (Feb 17, 2009)

I pretty much got blues and yellows from you  they are FAB by the way  so healthy and pretty , I was just thinking a red would look cool in with them ,,, and thought another female would be the way to go :hihi: when you are ready to sell me more , you just let me know . and Karakle , I would love some endlers too


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Suebe - i'd be happy to send you some fish, but they'd probably be endler/guppy hybrids, not sure if that's a problem for you or not, if not, PM me


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Karackle said:


> an awesome shot (IMVHO)


I definitely agree. This is an awesome picture! I love the colors of this little guy. Amp did you well.  By the way, happy six month anniversary on your thread of guppy/endler hybrids. :bounce:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

heehee thanks! I love how it looks like he's looking at me as if to say "umm....scuse me....what are you looking at? I KNOW i'm gorgeous" :hihi: Yes, Amp did me very well, I've never seen a guppy with a color like that guy, and all of them are brightly and beautifully colored. 

And thanks! Wow has it been six months already?! That is crazy! WHERE ARE ALL MY HYBRIDS THEN?! :hihi: I have high hopes for it this time leaving the male guppies in with the endler and endler-looking (possible hybrid) females  

Today I will be adding the guppy male and virgin endler females that have been in quarantine together into the main breeding tank


----------



## suebe333 (Feb 17, 2009)

Karackle said:


> Enjoy!


 I want this one :hihi: LOL , I did find a pretty scarlet female at petsupermarket the other day , not quite as pretty as yours though


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Heeheehee this one is actually a male, but I know what you mean about a red female, they are definitely a bit harder to come by. I love the scarlet colored guppies, i had one before, actually his genes should be in the babies somewhere because he was the original guppy papa, unfortunately he passed away recently, but these new guppies are gorgeous enough in their own right!


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

So I guess I should be happy! 










This is a female, but her tail is pushed up to look like a mail.









Sorry, Kara. Didn't mean to hijack. I cannot get over that male picture. He is so good looking, that female is chasing him, lol! You are going to have some great hybrids!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

You are definitely lucky! those are very pretty females!  And not to worry, I don't think it's a threadjack, we're talking about red females!  And I don't mind anyway, wherever the conversation goes, it goes. When I have tank updates, I'll still post them  

And yes, he is a pretty sexy male, she's totally chasing him and he's like "woah lady, i'm still getting settled into this new tank stop following me!" :hihi: :icon_lol:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Well I know that he doesn't live in this tank anymore, but I was lying in bed watching the fishies swimming in the tank and I noticed one of the males that I'd moved to the 30g that I thought just looked like an endler originally looked like he definitely might be a hybrid! He's a little bigger than the other endlers, definitely has a longer than normal tail and his dorsal fin is also a bit longer and colorful as opposed to the short colorless dorsal fin of a pure male endler :biggrin: 

I tried to snap some pics of him, didn't get any great ones and unfortunately none with another male in the picture for comparison, but here are the two best I got! 


















*EDIT* Dug up some pure endler male pictures for comparison, notice the shorter tail, and shorter and less colorful dorsal fin


----------



## FrostyNYC (Nov 5, 2007)

There are definitely true (nonhybrid) endlers with colorful dorsal fins. About 20% of my males get color in their dorsal fin and maybe 20% get a bottom sword on their tail. And to the best of my knowledge, they've never been crossed. Several of Adrian's N-class strains also have colored dorsal fins.


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Very cool, good info to know thanks! I've been keeping an eye on this one though and I'm pretty sure he is a hybrid. His tail is getting progressively longer and he's a bit bigger than the non-hybrid males I had / have. The dorsal fin is quite a bit longer too than what I've seen on the males I used to start the hybrid project, and his colors are much more pastel and less neon than the other male endlers. It is of course certainly possible he's just an oddball....but since he came from the breeding tank where I intentionally mixed guppies and endlers to make hybrids, there is a good chance he's a hybrid. Actually there is a good chance they are all hybrids but he just is showing more guppy traits than the others. 

I will try to update with more recent, and better (if I can) pictures soon!


----------



## mithrius (Apr 28, 2009)

pretty cool! keep postng pics! 
my very first fish were guppies.. i will always have a special place in my heart for them. they are all so pretty, even the plain females. <3


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Looking forward to news.....hint. :hihi:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

mithrius - thanks! I love guppies too, they're so beautiful, being so easy to keep, I think they get sort of brushed off a lot by more experience hobbyists, but they are such a great way to add some gorgeous color to a tank! They have a special place in my heart too, can you tell? :hihi:

Sara - I know! I need to get new pictures! I was home this weekend for my brother's fiancee's bridal shower (3 hour drive), and I have an interview to go to tomorrow (3 hour drive), so i'm busy busy but I will try to post updates sooooooooon :biggrin: If i can, i'll take pics before I leave tonight and post them when I can't sleep :hihi:


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Well, in preparation for the move, I gave most of the fish from this project to my Coworker's mom who is a guppy breeder who has always wanted to try Endlers. 

I kept a couple of the endler-looking-males in my 30g, the pineapple and blue guppy males are also in my 30g, and the 3 different red guppy males, 4 endler-looking-male and 1 leopard-guppy-looking-male babies are in the 10g tank I recently set up with my coworkers in our office. Even though I'll be moving soon, I know they'll be in good hands here


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Wah!!!!


----------



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

I know  

It got to be too much with everything else like trying to find a job and a house and things like that. :tongue: I was forgetting to search for and remove endler males and guppy females, and really I just didn't have enough tanks for this project. Maybe one day I'll set it back up and actually pay better attention to separating the ones I don't want breeding with each other into their own tanks. :biggrin:

Until then, I am down to just 2 tanks. It's weird.


----------

