# Any thoughts? (Pics)



## tusk (Jan 30, 2006)

Brown hair algae.............

Tank details:
110 gallon tank
274 watts of CF lights
Pressurized CO2
2 big honkin filters


Here are some water parameters:

Tap water from a cup that sat out for about 24 hours:
NO3: 5 ppm
PO4: .5 ppm
pH: 8 ppm
gH: 357ppm (26*)
kH: 464 ppm (20*)
(I've always thought we had REALLY hard water)

Tank measurements 2 days out from a 50% water change
NO3: 20 ppm
PO4: 5 ppm
pH: 7.2
gH: 107 ppm (6*)
kH: 438 ppm (24*)
CO2 from Chuck's calc: 45ppm

My dosing:
KNO3: 1 teaspoon x3 per week
K2SO4: 1/2 teaspoon x3 per week
KH2PO4: 1/4 teaspoon x3 per week
CSM+B: 1/4 teaspoon x3 per week

I know the accuracy is something to be desired with the LFS kits but any thoughts? CO2 makes me think a bit. My big honking sword and some of my anubis nana pearl like mad and the fish seem fine......

Here are pics 2 days out from the water test from above. Biweekly water change is tomorrow. ALL of the plants were hand cleaned on Saturday (So it took 4 days to grow this much). Though it my not look like it in all the pics, all of the algae is brown in color and come off rather easily. My lights were running at 10 hrs a day. I backed them down to 8 hrs and I jacked up the CO2 a bit tonight.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Looks like your water runs through a softener. That might throw off the ion/salt balance and lead to problems down the road. I agree your water is extremely hard, but it might be better to mix it with RO than running it through the softener.

Another thought -- I would run the tank much leaner in the beginning. As long as you have algae, I would think your N and P levels in the tap water are sufficient. Raising these levels doesn't cause algae per se, but if you have any they will sure explode nicely.

I think what you are seeing is what some call thread alga. IME this is common in new setups, and with proper care and a bit of patience will go away by itself. Mechanical removal goes a long way if it gets too much. Sometimes you can just suck it up with a narrow gravel cleaner.


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## tusk (Jan 30, 2006)

Good shot on the softener I have no control of that portion of things as we live in a wannabe town-home/condo and that makes an RO setup a HUGE PITA. I "could" do it, but have hoses running here and there, not being able to close doors won't go over with myself nor with my wife.

I was hoping I could be the lucky one and sneek through this portion of a new tank, not the case :angel:


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

All and all everything actually looks Ok. Your water is really hard. You should just get a drop checker, so You don't have to guess whether or not Your water will work well with Chuck's calculator and/or the Kh/pH/C02 charts.

If I remember right--this is a new setup......So, what are Your NH4 and/or NH3 levels? You may just have too much Ammonia floating around. If so, use some Seachem Stability at about 1ml/gal for 2-3 doses and it should help jump start Your bacterial colony. Just don't do a WC for at least 24hrs after You dose.....

HTH


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## oblongshrimp (Jul 26, 2006)

I would just use the hardwater rather then trying to use the softened water. Almost all watersofteners work by ion exchange and just replace the CA and MG with salt. The plants that like soft water don't like salt either. I have found most plants grow just fine in very hard water (phoenix water). I can't be sure but I seem to recall reading a post by tom barr saying that its the KH that plants care about and not the GH.

If this is a new tank it could be ammonia thats causing it. Ideally if you can snag some filter media from an established tank and toss it in there that could help get that bacteria going. Even ammonia that is to low to read on a testkit can cause algae.


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## tusk (Jan 30, 2006)

I have no choice on the water. What my readings are from the tap is what is available to me. 

Yeah, it's still a really new tank. 7-8 weeks, MAYBE. The fish were just introduced 3 weeks ago. 
6 baby clown loaches 3 weeks ago (one loss this past week, it was the runt of the bunch).
11 baby congo tetras 2 weeks ago (no losses)
"New" plant kit was introduced about 4 weeks ago along with new Eco, replacing some old plants from my old tank in flower boxes with old Eco. 

I started the tank with the Stability  I just tested the ammonia w/ my API kit.... bright yellow as all get out.... 0ppm

I have the "Chuck" program. I love it


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Honestly, I have no idea how Your type of water softener effects the plants, their uptake or anything else. Best solution is RO. Its easy to patch/repair small holes drilled through drywall (if necessary) and cover plates make it look professional from the start.

On my 120g multi-tank setup, I have gone to ~10% daily WCs, because doing 50%WC/wk with RO without a Holding Tank is just impossible in my situation and impractical in probably almost all situations.

RO is very doable--whether You own or are renting.....

HTH


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## tusk (Jan 30, 2006)

I'll give it some thought


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## tusk (Jan 30, 2006)

So I decied to test the water from where it truely comes from (Washing machine). Hmmmmm it's a wee bit different. It didn't sit for 24 hrs though. Does this change any thoughts? Water chemistry is not one of my strong points  

NO3 10ppm
PO4 0.5ppm
kH 340ppm (19*)
gH 35.8ppm (2*)
pH 7.6ppm


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

The difficult part is the GH. Obviously, the water softener removes all the Ca/Mg ions and replaces them (probably with Na - Sodium). While I have no personal experience with those water softener, I bet it can't be good for growing plants in your tank. IIRC they say you shouldn't even water your yard with softened water.

So the question is - can you bypass the softener, and get your water change water directly from the tap? In your first post you mentioned a gH of 26, which is extremely high, but perhaps better than what you get from your washing machine.

Since you are dealing with REALLY hard water, a RO/DI setup would be great. I am not really a fan of complexity, but if you could cut your tap water hardness to about 30% things might get better. If not, just try to deal with the unsoftened tapwater. With enough CO2 you'll find plants that can handle that much hardness.


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## tusk (Jan 30, 2006)

I've been figuring out the RO all day today. I think I have a decent layout idea for it. What type of things am I looking to add to the RO water as that's really all that good either?

This is just kind of a bummer as my old, lower tech 38 gallon did relatively well with plants from the LFS.

To plant or not to plant :icon_frow


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

RO also use sometimes use potassium instead of sodium so you might want to check up on that.

But it sounds like you're fine.
you just need to start off slow (lower lights) and find the balance for your tank.. It'll take a month or so. And you might want to lower your micros...My gut feeling (not fact) is that excess micros & ammonia contribute to algae blooms.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

mistergreen said:


> RO also use sometimes use potassium instead of sodium so you might want to check up on that.


RO doesn't use sodium or potassium.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Naja002 said:


> RO doesn't use sodium or potassium.


what am I thinking of ?


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Just a General water "Softener".... 

RO uses filters....


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## tusk (Jan 30, 2006)

I know that I have done too many things at once, basically figuring all my plants have a good chance of being casualities, but.....

Still on the 50% x2 water changes per week
Same Ei dosining w/ the addition of Fe on my CSM +B days
Jacked the CO2 (ppm is anybodys guess) you can't count the bubbles quick enough in the counter, but the fish are fine 
Light has gone from 9 hrs down to 6

I'm just trying to somewhat control this, this really seems to have greatly slowed the algae growth though. makes sense with less light and more CO2. I thought I've read that high Fe stimulates the dereaded algae growth. Is there any truth to that? 

Before this weekend I will have ordered my RO setup, why stop now I guess :angel: 
I do like the built-in TDS meter, plus it come with a fair amount of extras. 
http://cgi.ebay.com/Reverse-Osmosis...5QQihZ015QQcategoryZ46310QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I'm still trying to find a 55 gallon drum locally. I thought I had a lead ($5 each , but a day late and a dollar short.) I have a service guy where I work keeping an eye out (You can find interesting things at a hospital), but I might just have to go to Ebay.

I did a QUICK search, but I didn't find what I was looking for. Durring the light cycle, when is the ideal time for the plants to start to pearl? Closer to the end of the cycle, middle, earlier? Mine tend to go mid / early.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I don't think there is an ideal or recommended time for plants to start pearling. Depends on many things, some tanks start early, others never do. Basically, the more light, nutrients, plant density and active growth the earlier you get the bubbling. Are you concerned about oxygen saturation?


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## tusk (Jan 30, 2006)

Not really conserned, just there has to be a point. 

Ideal plant uptake of ferts from CO2 happens here, saturation occurs, and then (to me atleast) you have a continus battle supplying enough CO2 for the plants to make use of all those ferts you put in due to the O2 being replaced in the water. 

Or am I just letting my mind wander into places it shouldn't


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

tusk said:


> Ideal plant uptake of ferts from CO2 happens here, saturation occurs, and then (to me atleast) you have a continus battle supplying enough CO2 for the plants to make use of all those ferts you put in due to the O2 being replaced in the water.


You just lost me here totally. Huh? :help: 



tusk said:


> Or am I just letting my mind wander into places it shouldn't


That is quite possible. :icon_lol:


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## tusk (Jan 30, 2006)

We'll just end that conversation right there  

trying to type / put my thoughts out when I'm lifting is never a good I idea.

With 3 hrs left on my photo period, it looks almost like klarbrunn water in my tank from the plant/algae pearling and my filter sucking it all up and voilently distrubiting it everywhere :icon_wink


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

tusk said:


> Not really conserned, just there has to be a point.
> 
> Ideal plant uptake of ferts from CO2 happens here, saturation occurs, and then (to me atleast) you have a continus battle supplying enough CO2 for the plants to make use of all those ferts you put in due to the O2 being replaced in the water.



02 and C02 concentrations are not exclusive. You can have High 02 *and* High C02. Low 02 and Low C02. Or any combination thereof....

HTH


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## tusk (Jan 30, 2006)

^^^ Thanks


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## tusk (Jan 30, 2006)

Well the brown stuff is gone, now replaced with green fuzz algae. Hopefully I can have my RO up and running by the end of next week.


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## coco9465 (Jun 1, 2007)

WOW ! Nice lay out but.....:tongue: Any improvement yet? 

I like to suggest - Reducing the light to 4 hours per day, hand pick those long hair algae while you trying out all kinds of water softening methods. Increase the light after algae is under control.

Guppy and molly are not very expensive, buy few of them, because hair algae is part of their diet.


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## tusk (Jan 30, 2006)

Yeah, I'm still playing w/ the lights and CO2. .

Dunno. I've gone from LONG, FAST growing brown hair algae that would almost disenegrate when you touched it to short green hair alage that appears everywhere.

Congos and clown loaches are the only things going in the tank


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## coco9465 (Jun 1, 2007)

Well.....in that case, have you try give a GOOD dose of EXCEL, this will take care of those little fuzzy algae.

If you have Riccia, DON'T over dose EXCEL. Good luck!


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## tusk (Jan 30, 2006)

Good bless RO water. Things are comming back into check. I can make it an entire week now without it being overridden with algae, so I'm down to once a week water changes instead of two. Too bad my stock of plants took such a hit.


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## Nbot (Apr 15, 2007)

fwiw, I went thru this with my softened water...and decided to stay w/ softened water. The "cold" from the kitchen sink should *not* be going thru the softener since that's drinking water, but I suppose you aren't taking water from there.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...iscussion/45826-water-change-temperature.html

Not sure that's any help...


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## JenThePlantGeek (Mar 27, 2006)

So tusk - you went RO and it helped? Great to hear! I think about your Monstrosity almost every time I look at the corner of my living room. I'd love to see some more pictures of it and how everything is doing. I like what you said earlier, "Why stop now?" is right!


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## tusk (Jan 30, 2006)

When testing the water it was the same across the board - washing machine, shower #2, kitchen sink (both hot and cold).

For me, RO seems to be the ticket for my situation. I just recieved a suplment of plants last night. I had to work a double so when I got home they just basically go tossed in there, so they wouldn't be sitting in the box that extra day. When I'm done with the good old workout I'm goning to do some actual planting (I don't dare say scape, heh, because I can't. Atleast not yet ). I'll post some pics then when I'm donr tonight. 

I got some Cabomba Red and Anubias Frazeri I'm pretty excited about. The Cabomba took a beating durring shipping though. 

I think I've bought most everything I need, but you're right. Why stop there.... eh, I shouldn't skimp here (Though my Jebo UV is still rockin  ). It's all a drop in the bucket for happiness



**** Bleh, I don't feel like lifting tonight


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