# PH Bounce



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Have you checked your kH and gH?

Are you using RO water?

And where are you getting your discus? Do you know the pH, kH and gH of the water they're coming from?


----------



## mrbprint (Jan 22, 2011)

If I remember the figures from the tap GH <20 ppm KH 120, NO RO. What has me baffled is why the gallon container is stable but water in tank is bouncing around, same water, different container.


----------



## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

mrbprint said:


> My tap water down stream of out water softener is very nearly dead soft but high PH upper 7"s.


What kind of water softener?


----------



## mrbprint (Jan 22, 2011)

Ion exchange resin But again, the 1 gal container stays stable, tank bounces


----------



## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

If it's a salt regen it will cause problems for the plants and also the water is still just as hard just altered by the ion exchange so the GH test chemicals give a false value.
O2 level in the tank is probably higher than the container.

Edit; how is the pH adjustment being achieved? what are you using?


----------



## mrbprint (Jan 22, 2011)

I am using sulferic acid


----------



## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

You should not try to lower your pH by adding chemical buffers to the aquarium. 

The only real way you will achieve a consistently lower pH without it bouncing is using RO water. 

In addition, adding things like sulfuric acid to your water will just cause the TDS to increase.


----------



## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Quit worrying about pH and focus on GH and KH. You are getting a bounce using chemcials because your KH is high. "Softened" water does not equal low KH, usually. It is just replacing the calcium with salt, which in the end is worse for your plants and fish.

I'd get an RO unit and mix RO with tap to get a stable KH/GH/TDS. Doing what your doing is going to continue to have the same result over and over and over again.


----------



## mrbprint (Jan 22, 2011)

I truly appreciate and agree with all the reply's, but it seems everyone has lost track of my question. 

A bucket of tap water, couple of drops of acid= 6.4PH NO CHANGE after 48hrs. Aquarium- same water, same acid=6.4PH IN 12hrs BOUNCES back to upper 7's, not just once but4-5+ times. What is in the tank changing the water? I fully agree that it is not good to keep throwing stuff in, compounding the TDS aspect of the water, but if the tank would react as the "control" bucket did it would not be a problem. PLEASE look at what I have in the tank and let me know if any of these things have affected PH for you. I am suspecting the Flora Max.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I think the Flora Max is probably suspect, too. IDK much about FM and haven't ever used it personally, but I know Eco Complete has the tendency to do the same.

I also agree with everyone else that going with an RO unit is going to be a much safer/more stable way to alter your water for discus.

You can keep going with sulfuric acid if you want, I know some others who do it, but they also maintain very large reservoirs of pre-mixed water on hand for emergency water changes. That's quite a bit of space and energy to maintain in comparison to using an RO unit.


----------



## mrbprint (Jan 22, 2011)

I agree about the RO but it is not an option right now because of the high amount of waste water. Only have a shallow well(20ft) and a septic system that could flood with all that water. If I could get the tank to settle with just 1 application of acid as the bucket of tap does, all would be well, as it doesn't take very much.


----------



## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

The trouble is for fish the pH is MUCH less important than KH and GH. I think you said you want to keep discus, and the KH being soft is much more essential than the pH being "right". 

So you could get the pH to whatever you want to, but if you don't fix the KH you will never have great success. LIke said before, the sodium ions from your softener aren't going to do anything to help you or your fish in this setting.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Sulfuric acid will break down kH, too. It can work- it will just be quite a bit of work to maintain a stable supply...


----------



## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Sorry not to have directly answered your question.
The fact does still remain that a salt regen conditioner will cause problems for the plants and your fish. Again the water is still just as hard just altered by the ion exchange so the GH test chemicals are giving a false value. Na instead of Ca and with discus being your fish of choice that is going to be a problem.

Hope things work out.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I agree that salt-based water softening isn't ideal, but it's definitely usable. I was on well water with the same type of water softening system for years without any problems.

And depending on the source for your discus, you may find a local breeder who is working with a strain already adapted to your water conditions. Home-grown domesticated discus are a far cry from the wild-caught imports in terms of hardiness and adaptability to water parameters.


----------



## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

lauraleellbp said:


> I agree that salt-based water softening isn't ideal, but it's definitely usable. I was on well water with the same type of water softening system for years without any problems.


GEEZ what a tease when you have almost 20K in posts. LOL
Any journals still up? I had fits with my conditioner and would love to see what worked.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I just moved this past November, so all of my tanks were on well water till then... all my journals are still the same threads except here's the old 90gal journal: http://forums.tfhmagazine.com/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=23207


----------



## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

lauraleellbp said:


> I just moved this past November, so all of my tanks were on well water till then... all my journals are still the same threads except here's the old 90gal journal: http://forums.tfhmagazine.com/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=23207


 
WOW! thanks for the link! Just took a glance and it's a novel not a break time paragraph read. Coffee and a roll Saturday morning I think. My wife likes to sleep in and I'm up early. Reading keeps the noise down LOL. Looking at page one if you mention your water column treatments with the same detail I'll have my answers. roud: Thank you again!


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Only thing I ever did to my well water was add Prime. Most of the time...

I never tried to alter my pH or hardness. I researched discus when I was setting up the tank with the idea I may try them at some point, and I would have gotten them from Jack Wattley's discus farm if I had. I emailed back and forth a bit with his farm manager, learned he only uses RO water for breeding and raising the juvies, then his fish are acclimated back to local parameters, which are relatively hard in comparison with "normal" discus "ideals."


----------



## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

lauraleellbp said:


> Only thing I ever did to my well water was add Prime. Most of the time...


I'm still planning on grabbing a cup then reading that novel in the morning LOL

_From Seachem;_
_Prime® is the complete and concentrated conditioner for both fresh and salt water. Prime® removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Prime® converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter. Prime® may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime® detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. It will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels. Prime® also promotes the production and regeneration of the natural slime coat. Prime® is non-acidic and will not impact pH. Prime® will not overactivate skimmers. Use at start-up and whenever adding or replacing water._

My guess is that it somehow also binds the excess Na from the conditioner because my plants were a bigger challenge for me than fish slowly wasting away over time. My wife without thinking we would have trouble with it also used this 'softened' water for potted house plants and had similar problems with growth after we moved into the house with the conditioner. Never thought to use Prime on well water and eliminated the issues by using RO never looking back. Wife now uses my old tank water for the house plants and business is booming.

Might just try a 10g 'hard water' tank using prime and see if that fixes it for me too. roud:


----------



## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

I've used floramax. It DOES raise pH slightly. Maybe by .2 degrees.


----------

