# HC Roots/Runner propogations vs Photoperiod



## moto (Jan 12, 2010)

Waiting to hear what someone says about this one i love my HC and have been thinking about adding an extra light for just 4 hours in the middle of my 9 hours cycle. It really seems to love extra light. I started my carpet in 1/2 gallon betta bowl with 13watt CFL for 8 hours, never seen it grow so fast add i was only adding EXCEL.


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## HypnoticAquatic (Feb 17, 2010)

i would tell u that a consistant schedual and lvls dialed in will do better in the long run. if you up your lighting you can make them have to grow new leafs to adjust with the higher light or possibly sun bleach/sunburn them yes it can does happen if u upgrade from low to high which can make it even longer to get established in my experiance. i have noticed once you to so high it just doesnt work into your favor cause of how short the photo period has to be to combat algae i will say higher light will keep in closer to the ground and make smaller leafs normally. remember everything needs balance if one this is off the scales will tip not in your favor i personaly like 12 12 or 10 14


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

In the realm of planted tanks, impatience might as well be synonymous with algae. If you have something that works, changing something major (like lighting) will mean you'll have issues, which will mean you'll have to tweak other parameters. You might get the desired effect - eventually - but I'll bet my next paycheck there will be a bunch of tweaking in the meantime.


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## Zareth (Dec 13, 2010)

kevmo911 said:


> In the realm of planted tanks, impatience might as well be synonymous with algae. If you have something that works, changing something major (like lighting) will mean you'll have issues, which will mean you'll have to tweak other parameters. You might get the desired effect - eventually - but I'll bet my next paycheck there will be a bunch of tweaking in the meantime.


I don't know why reducing the light cycle would cause algae. 
Other parameters are practically zilch, I'm talking about the dry start method. (wasn't clear on that; I am interested to know about the effects on root and runner growth with an increased night cycle submerged and emerged, but mainly emerged)

If a plant sends its roots and runners out at night then providing it with plenty of photosynthesis but giving it more time with the lights out should make getting a developed root system that is necessary to provide nutrients for later on, much quicker. 

After all the days are shorter right after winter, this seems like the perfect time to get your roots established before you have 12-16 hour long summer days.

Again I'm not talking about upping the lighting. 
I mentioned moving the light closer but the main focus here is on less day time and more night time, moving the lights closer would just be compensation for the reduced light cycle. It may not be necessary


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## HypnoticAquatic (Feb 17, 2010)

moving your light closer is going to up your lighting just to what degree is depending on how far it was to how close your going to bring it in its just like a flashlight a wide beam wont see as far but if u just tweek it to concentrate the light you can see much further. and i still doubt that the tweaking the light will give u a more noticeable diff as say adding co² yes it can be done with a drystart to that will add a much more noticeable end result for growth imo. if your doing a drystart and ur parameters are zilch your quote then your plants will only be using its reserves to live and not thrive. there are other things you might want to consider to when u lower a light in a tank it can raise the temp quite a bit sometimes to where a plants suffers due to lack of circulation of air that causes the temp to rise to high. i personally dont see many plants grow much in the winter compaired to spring/summer i will still tell you if you want it to spread faster and due dry start add co² and keep everything else the same well add ferts u said there was zilch and you should have it in no time just shoot for 500pp and your fine i wouldnt go over 1k ppm and your growth would be awsome and fill in in no time.


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## CptanPanic (Jan 13, 2004)

If you are doing dry, you can try 24 hour light.


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

Sorry, missed that dry start part. If you're doing that, then try whatever you'd like, sounds like a neat experiment.

But I agree with Hypnotic in that dropping your light closer is increasing your light. There's no linear relationship between reducing photoperiod and increasing lighting. As a (very poor) analogy, increasing summer daylight temperature by 50% (by moving closer to the light source) here in north carolina, would kill me, regardless of how much daylight hours were reduced.


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## Capsaicin_MFK (Nov 15, 2009)

I've had my HC growing immersed for a month now and with 12 hours of light per day it is spreading very quickly.


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## Zareth (Dec 13, 2010)

Hypnotic, I would like to respond but I can barely tell what you said. 
Disregard my comment on the light distance to substrate, keep in mind the distance change could be just enough to go from medium to high light - not a problem IMO. The main thing here I am trying to ask you all is if anyone knows about the spreading of roots in semi-aquatic plants. 
In many plants that live above water only, the roots spread at night, and I would imagine if a plant has adequate co2 supply from the air and plenty of light, but a longer dark period, it could spread more roots. 

Any way, I am testing this in a small bowl with a 26 watt CFL 6500k bulb 5 inches from the substrate. I give it light from 12-6 and then it goes in my closet for a 16 hour dark period. 
The temperature in the bowl is fine, I mist cool water and then re cover it with saran wrap. 
Its growing in Aquasoil Amazonia.
I'll report back on how it goes.. but i'm so impatient.


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## HypnoticAquatic (Feb 17, 2010)

idk what to tell ya there was just a few thoughts/ concerns about why or how it can or cant work. ill try and put in as simple as i can if your plant is getting its full requirement within your allotted time then yes the rest will help but if its not due to whatever reason then the rest wont be as useful as it didnt get enough "food" for it to go to its full potential. still havent heard if your using co² or not. if your impatient then that is what i would tell you to do first as the other "factors" have a much smaller impact as co² is normally the limiting factor. idk what else to tell you that hasnt been previously stated.


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## Zareth (Dec 13, 2010)

HypnoticAquatic said:


> idk what to tell ya there was just a few thoughts/ concerns about why or how it can or cant work. ill try and put in as simple as i can if your plant is getting its full requirement within your allotted time then yes the rest will help but if its not due to whatever reason then the rest wont be as useful as it didnt get enough "food" for it to go to its full potential. still havent heard if your using co² or not. if your impatient then that is what i would tell you to do first as the other "factors" have a much smaller impact as co² is normally the limiting factor. idk what else to tell you that hasnt been previously stated.


co2 is not a factor. The plants have access to plenty of co2 from the air.. They are not submerged. 
I think the plants should be getting plenty of glucose from photosynthesis. I just hope they spread roots faster this way, because that seems to be the slowest part of the grow.


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## HypnoticAquatic (Feb 17, 2010)

how is co2 not a factor? please show me any evidence that supports this i know that there is no such evidence as is a MAJOR part on how fast a plant propigates and grows. you seem like u already know the answers you want to hear so what are u really looking for?


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## DMRaver (Dec 30, 2010)

I think the confusion is in how the HC will be grown. HypnoticAquatic, co2 would be a limiting factor if the plant was being grown submerged. But Zareth is asking about growing it emersed, like in a dry start, where it would be able to draw its co2 from the air. Interesting idea Zareth, I am interested to know if your findings. I will be dry starting my HC carpet soon, be sure to do a journal


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## HypnoticAquatic (Feb 17, 2010)

yes i know that is will be a dry start but it still has a limiting co2 its just faster than submerged thus why im asking if he is using it because u can make a dry start even faster which is what he was saying he wanted from being impatient. co2 will still be a limiting factor either way its grown up until u get around 1kppm vs atmospheric lvls vs water lvls. so as i was saying its still can be made to grow faster with extra co2 until you reach certain lvl. do u understand what i am saying now? also if its going to need to make a carpet faster individual stem planting is best to achieve that goal faster


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## moto (Jan 12, 2010)

Co2 is even a limiting factor in emersed growing. Hydroponics guys have knowen this for years and many actually inject co2 into their grow rooms for the same effect as we inject it into our aquariums. I'd say zareth maybe you could try some DIY co2 with a check valve into your bowl. Since co2 is heavier then air it will sink to the plants and you will only need a small hole to keep the syran from blowing off lol. Remember if you have it covered to keep moisture in you are also keeping fresh co2 out plus ambient co2 is at a far less concentrated form then what we can provide.


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## Zareth (Dec 13, 2010)

Lol... Yes co2 is THE limiting factor, but it is not a limiting factor in this instance.
I agree though, a higher concentration of co2 would ease in co2 uptake, which would likely manifest in increased growth, but that's more equipment than I want hooked up to this little experiment. 

If I were growing 100 lb's of marijuana hydroponically, then yes I'd spray the room full of co2. But I have a few stems of HC spread into a small bowl.

Do you think that 40 or so tiny leaves can fully convert the co2 in the bowl to o2 between mistings? If it were doing this, the plant would have also created so much glucose I would already be seeing a dense carpet. 

I'm wondering what people know about what plants do during the dark cycle. "rest" is not what I want to hear, plants don't really rest. At night they use all the glucose they made during the day to create new stuff. And I am also sort of documenting my progress.
Although I did not have a control - a plant who recieved 12 and 12 light/dark as a comparison. So I wont come up with any hard conclusions


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## HypnoticAquatic (Feb 17, 2010)

i still fail to see any proof on how you agree that its the limiting factor but just not for you? how? we are not talking about a lot of co2 if its in a confined area tank/bowl just sealed up like you are doing for humidity. yes plants do most of there growing at night also is called giving them rest, its rest from the light!! just because its not what u want to hear doesnt mean that its not right sorry. once again please show how these factors dont apply to you? now we know your not adding co2 which was what we were asking about as this was all about adding more co2 to make it grow faster. seems like you have already made your conclusions on how this all works so there is no need to continue


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## moto (Jan 12, 2010)

It seems to me this would be a good experiment for you... two bowls both same size same light same amount of plants one on 12 cycle and one on say 14-10. But it's really hard to say... I know for veging most grows use a 18-6 cycle being less dark more light. Thats for vegatative groth witch i would call spreading for your HC.


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## moto (Jan 12, 2010)

I think plants store glucos to make it threw the dark period. Thus you cut down their dark period they do not need to spend as much energy in making glucos (to survive) Thus spending most their energy growing and not storing energy. Mind you it will take while for plants to settle fully into a photo period.


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## Zareth (Dec 13, 2010)

HypnoticAquatic said:


> i still fail to see any proof on how you agree that its the limiting factor but just not for you? how? we are not talking about a lot of co2 if its in a confined area tank/bowl just sealed up like you are doing for humidity. yes plants do most of there growing at night also is called giving them rest, its rest from the light!! just because its not what u want to hear doesnt mean that its not right sorry. once again please show how these factors dont apply to you? now we know your not adding co2 which was what we were asking about as this was all about adding more co2 to make it grow faster. seems like you have already made your conclusions on how this all works so there is no need to continue


Okay. I'll try again.
co2 and light are obviously the primary things involved in photosynthesis. The things a plant gets from the soil are mostly (I'm going out on a limb here, just going off of one college bio class) used to synthesize the structures it needs to grow and thrive, and I would also assume the soil provides catalysts for the photosynthesis reaction. 
I'll also assume the plant needs only as much co2 as it can use for photosynthesis, which in this case is dictated by the light cycle AKA duration that a certain amount of photons are striking the chloroplasts.
Plants do some respiration at night as well, but its far less.
I'm just assuming that my small quantity of HC is not limited by the co2, but limited instead by the light cycle. 
My other assumption is that when the plant spends 6 hours making glucose under high intensity lighting it will be triggered into spreading out and making more surface area so it can better utilize the light its given. 

I was simply arguing "rest" because its not really a rest, and I don't know how a plant "rests from the light" a plant is still active at night, doing plenty of things, everything but photosynthesis in fact. Thats why we dont need co2 at night. 




moto said:


> I think plants store glucos to make it threw the dark period. Thus you cut down their dark period they do not need to spend as much energy in making glucos (to survive) Thus spending most their energy growing and not storing energy. Mind you it will take while for plants to settle fully into a photo period.


Thats interesting - if we assume the plants store the glucose to survive the night, when do they use the glucose and synthesize new cellular structures? I know the plants main focus during the day is photosynthesis. 
If what you say is true my experiment will undoubtedly show very slow growth. 


Lets keep up the debate guys - don't take what I say as rejecting what you say. I'm just in college and I've been brainwashed for three years to right persuasive papers. 

One of the things that inspired my to test this was my experience growing Habanero peppers. 
When I start a plant indoors during the winter it grows quite bushy all through till late summer. At that point the plant has so many leaves and so much photosynthetic capability that it will pump out massive amounts of fruit until the next winter. 
But when I start a plant outdoors at the beginning of the growing season it grows quicker and produces fruit earlier than the one that grew indoors first. It also produces less fruit and never becomes as large. 

There is definitely an element of the indoor plant having longer to grow but 
I know that flowering plants respond to how long the day is, so that they can tell how far they are from winter.
I would also assume that in the plant world, if the days are quite short and dark and stay that way for quite a while, the plant would think it was still a ways off from summer, and as it detects the days growing in length it knows is still has a while till winter and continues to focus on vegetative growth. 
Just a thought
sorry for the novel.

edit: also in response to moto's first post. What do you think the difference would be between say, a stem plant, who only grows up, and a plant like HC who spreads via runners/roots? I've heard from Marijuana cultivars that the marijuana plant spreads its roots at night, and I have heard that about other plants too. Thats the only reason I'm thinking this might work for HC as opposed to the more obvious More day, less night.


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## moto (Jan 12, 2010)

ok this is true but is a runner like a root or more like a flower? since a flower is more of a reproductive organ comparable to a runner? As far as i know HC does not flower but it also comes from a part of the wold where as far as i know their is not much difference between seasons. This question sounds complicated and deserves an experiment or maybe you can search scientific periodicals. I think i will look for some info once i go back to school and can be directed by someone in our greenhouse.


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## moto (Jan 12, 2010)

UPDATE this plant does flower 

Source> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/plantfinder/details.php?id=51


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## Zareth (Dec 13, 2010)

moto said:


> UPDATE this plant does flower
> 
> Source> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/plantfinder/details.php?id=51


Interesting, I'm glad to see this plant flowers.
You are very right about the seasons in cuba, but it is still above the equator enough that I would hope it has some "programmed" response to the length of day. Either left over from whatever it has evolved from or w/e...

HC is looking good, I think I see a new leave popping up out of the ground. =]


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## HypnoticAquatic (Feb 17, 2010)

plants would only need as much co2 light fert as they could use that is correct but what isnt known is with your bowl being sealed how much of that co2 is in there as there is probably very poor air circulation to bring more into in when it is depleted. i have been quite impressed with how much my plants actually take up and o2 that they produce. as for the rest thats just a term same as a break hiatus ext ext if a plant doesnt get that and has 24 hr light it does poorly vs 18on 6off. most info i have read all states to a longer photo period with a short break. also the lighting can have just as much of an effect more blue is going to add more mass red will add more reproduction. as for having the top of the bowl sealed i think i should do much better with an open top to allow for circulation would just have to figure out how u would keep your humidity up either a humidifier or could try planting them into a polymer that holds water. i still see very few plants that flower with a shortened light schedule vs how many use a longer 16 -18 hr schedule


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## Zareth (Dec 13, 2010)

The bowl is in my room and I am on winter break right now so I take the top off often and give it air. 
You're right, if a plant has a 24 hour light cycle it does poorly. You can trigger a good amount of leaf growth with that light cycle but the root system can never keep up. 
I will just be using this light bulb, 6500k - so I won't be able to report on types of growth compared to color temperature. 
a humidifier might be very much overkill. 
How do you measure the o2 your plants put off? 
The thing is in a sealed environment where no water escapes, you could clearly tell the amount of photosynthesis by the amount of water thats absorbed, which is very very small right now. As the plant grows in thicker i suspect i'll see more water loss, at which point I might leave the bowl un covered or at least put slits in the saran wrap and place a fan near it. 

Anyway. Heres a photo of my progress.
I left a clump, I also planted some stem by stem, and some in clumps of 3-4 stems just to see the variety


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## HypnoticAquatic (Feb 17, 2010)

would like to see a update on this or maybe use a small portion after this is done and start a 18hr light sched 6off and see if u notice it doing better just a thought then u would have quite a bit to start with. there are also experiments using colors to encourage growth and sounds ext ext there are some crazy things u can do to encourage that little plant to grow. if u can u should do daily pics to show growth it really helps make a timeline for it.


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