# Stick with t5HO or go with LED? 55 Gallon with a story



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

nick30 said:


> So my question is this: If I switch to LED and I want a single fixture will the Finnex Ray II be a close replacment to the 108W T5HO.



close? Arguably no........ 2 would..


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## jasa73 (Jun 3, 2007)

I just upgraded my lighting from 4x T5HO to 1 Finnex Ray 2. My tank is 110 gallon 53x20x24 inches deep (20 at the substrate). I find 1 is working fine for me. Some think that the spread of the Finnex Ray 2 to be inadequate. I actually move mine around or sometimes put it diagonally to make sure the most light demanding plants get the most intense of the light. I am thinking about adding a Monster Ray to make colors pop, but that would also increase my PAR slightly. Your tank is narrower and shallower than mine...I'd start with one..see how it goes, then add a second if your plants tell you, they need it, but I'm doing find with 1.


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## CoffeeLove (Oct 31, 2012)

T5hos are cheap and work great plus it's super easy to customize the spectrum if you wanted. 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk


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## xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx (Jul 12, 2011)

^ +1

I would stick with T5HO and go with a 6500k bulb, and a WavePoint Ultra Growth Wave bulb which cover both the 420nm & 660nm spectrums that plants chlorophyll A & chlorophyll B need.


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## islanddave1 (Jul 5, 2013)

HO T-5's with out question.................I have both led and HO t-5's and love the T-5's


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## andakin (May 7, 2014)

I made the switch to LED and couldn't be happier. In my experience, a single Ray2 can do the job of a dual T5ho.


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## brooksie321 (Jul 19, 2014)

If you're looking to do the led thing right and don't mind dropping a few bucks? Check out the exotic e series or bml, they would be the only real competition for that much t5 wattage.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

The whole industry seems to be moving away from t5s. I just bought two bulbs for a 36 inch fixture and spent about 40 bucks. Leds have to be cheaper in the long run. Unless of course they don't last as long as people suggest.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

For the taller 18+" tanks, the $/PAR is still too high for LEDs.

v3


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## aquarist (Aug 29, 2012)

BruceF said:


> The whole industry seems to be moving away from t5s. I just bought two bulbs for a 36 inch fixture and spent about 40 bucks. Leds have to be cheaper in the long run. Unless of course they don't last as long as people suggest.



Ouch! Buy bulbs online, they are usually around $10-$13 for the 48" 54 watt bulbs. 

I second OVT, the price per par on LEDs is just too high. Yes there are cheap DIY LEDs as I am sure this one forum member will comment on, he simply cannot keep away from an led thread. This is more of what you want, if you want opinions, I like T5HOs the color blends well and mixes well in my aquarium, you can change the spectra at will, and the price per par is really cheap. I have LEDs on my 180(left over from a reef setup) and the light doesn't mix very well and isn't as pleasing to the eye to me.


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## CoffeeLove (Oct 31, 2012)

BruceF said:


> The whole industry seems to be moving away from t5s. I just bought two bulbs for a 36 inch fixture and spent about 40 bucks. Leds have to be cheaper in the long run. Unless of course they don't last as long as people suggest.


You're buying bulbs from the wrong place lol. 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Interesting comparison showing the ray2 and t5ho on the same tank here - http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=342218 (bottom two pics in OP) 

Food for thought possibly.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I have very limited experience with LED's. The one fixture I have is great for growing plants and was dirt cheap. However, one thing that bugged me for awhile was the spectrum. I am used to it now, and actually kind of like it but I would have been very disappointed if I spend good money on a more powerful/bigger fixture for another tank and had the same results.

The problem I am facing on converting LED's is that they either are adjustable but don't put out enough light so you need more than one fixture, they put out enough light but are not adjustable, or they have most or all of what I need but I don't think it's worth the money. 

That said, I wouldn't replace my T5HO today for LED, however, I would likely buy an LED fixture over a T5HO fixture if I didn't already have one. None of my tanks need that much light, my T5HO fixture is really overkill and would have likely been satisfied with an LED fixture that cost the same (with less output but more than I need), they just didn't exist the way they do now. On the flip side, I likely won't buy an expensive light again either, which is what is keeping me from LED"s. I feel in a year, I will be able to get exactly what I want for what I am willing to pay.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

aquarist said:


> Ouch! Buy bulbs online, they are usually around $10-$13 for the 48" 54 watt bulbs.
> 
> I second OVT, the price per par on LEDs is just too high. Yes there are cheap DIY LEDs as I am sure this one forum member will comment on, he simply cannot keep away from an led thread.


Gee who would that be????

"expensive " only if your a brand snob... 

and an 18" tank is NOT tall.. 

you only need 54W of LED's w/ 90 degree optics to surpass the PAR of your T5...HO or not..



> Here is the all new, absolute latest in LED technology and ultra efficiency LEDs from Philips.
> This is the Luxeon ES series! The finest Neutral White LED on the market - Even superior to Cree LEDS (XT-E), consuming less electricity and having more total output lumens!
> - Forward Voltage is 3.0V @ 1000ma
> - Max current - 1000ma
> ...


Lets just consider bulbs for a minute..
22 (rounding up to max driver/ps @1000mA) the above is $66.......
2 drivers (ldd-1000H or HW) $14
1 36V switching PS $30

some aluminum.. 

7106 lumens.. How many for the 2 T5's? (MAYBE if you are lucky 10000, more than likely they would be equal) 


4 T5 HO bulbs.. What is a "normal" cost for good bulbs??? Thirty bucks?? , 1/2 the cost.. for one year, same cost after 2..


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

It's not the LED industry's fault that freshwater fixture manufacturers are stuck 2 years in the past. There are plenty of options right now for very deep penetration. But sure it's the fault of LED manufacturers that fixture makers use 99 cent emitters on their stuff.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Here is yet another post on LED / fixture going strong on for 50,000 hours. Not. From a brand we all respect.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?p=6365922

That's the math I understand.

v3


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

OVT said:


> Here is yet another post on LED / fixture going strong on for 50,000 hours. Not. From a brand we all respect.
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?p=6365922
> 
> ...


Never get one w/ a "ballast" that is internal.. THAT is the real lesson..

how many t5HO "cheap" or "mid-range" ballasts failed in a short time?? I'd be the answer is.. a lot..........

for some t5 bulbs "fail" yearly.. (or why replace them? failure is a matter of definition) Electronic ballasts will more than likely, at best, have a 3 yr lifespan..

Bump:


gus6464 said:


> But sure it's the fault of LED manufacturers that fixture makers use 99 cent emitters on their stuff.


your being way to "generous" on that cost.. I doubt SMD's are anywhere near $1..
The 1-3W's "may" be close.. but I doubt that ..


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## apstreck (Apr 27, 2014)

I love my Finnex fixtures. I have a single Fugeray Planted+ on my 75 gallon planted and everything is doing great. Ray2 is more powerful than the Fugeray. Plus, everything looks better under a LED's IMO.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

jeffkrol said:


> for some t5 bulbs "fail" yearly.. (or why replace them? failure is a matter of definition) Electronic ballasts will more than likely, at best, have a 3 yr lifespan..


I love these instant statistics.

On a different note. Keep in mind that you (everyone) do not have to convince others that only you are right. Everyone has their opinion, can share and discuss here. If you (anyone) resort to name calling and "stirring the pot", thread closures and infractions are imminent. Keep these discussions focused on the subject at hand.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I have never had a ballast fail and my T5 and T5HO fixtures have all been used for long periods of time, some fixtures are far from reputable brands too. As appealing as DIY LED's may be for a DIYer, that doesn't not mean they are for everyone. I know I could easily make a DIY LED fixture myself but I would rather buy, that's me. 

I know Wasserpest just warned about getting off topic, I am sorry if I am but DIY lighting is just a plain bad idea for someone who doesn't know what they are doing. I feel that is important to state, if I get an infraction or not.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Back to OP:
55g tank, assume fixture mounted on the rim.

What off-the-shelf LED == 2 x 54w t5ho?

v3


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

talontsiawd said:


> I have never had a ballast fail and my T5 and T5HO fixtures have all been used for long periods of time, some fixtures are far from reputable brands too. As appealing as DIY LED's may be for a DIYer, that doesn't not mean they are for everyone. I know I could easily make a DIY LED fixture myself but I would rather buy, that's me.
> 
> I know Wasserpest just warned about getting off topic, I am sorry if I am but DIY lighting is just a plain bad idea for someone who doesn't know what they are doing. I feel that is important to state, if I get an infraction or not.


But then again that's the age old debate on LED vs T5. LED is not strong enough to penetrate deep, LED has crap spectrum, LED costs an arm and leg, etc. As the reef side of things is showing over and over, the tech is there. Gotta love the double standard though, when an LED light costs $500 it's a fortune/overpriced; when an ATI T5HO fixture costs $500 it's a quality product.

Bump:


OVT said:


> Back to OP:
> 55g tank, assume fixture mounted on the rim.
> 
> What off-the-shelf LED == 2 x 54w t5ho?
> ...


Build my LED XB 90deg optics. ~100 PAR of even par front to back (assuming it's a standard 55g which is 12" wide front to back).
http://www.buildmyled.com/dutch-planted-6300k-xb-series/


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

I personally do not see a double standard here. The question is straightforward, keeping everything else constant within reason, the $$$ is the only variable.

So, the question is, how much for an equivalent LED set-up?

I currently use CLs, CFLs, t5ho, and LEDs.
For me, all of them have their uses, arguably, at different price points.

v3


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

OVT said:


> I personally do not see a double standard here. The question is straightforward, keeping everything else constant within reason, the $$$ is the only variable.
> 
> So, the question is, how much for an equivalent LED set-up?
> 
> ...


Well the BML setup above is $325.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

I personally would just go with T5HOs. I was thinking of getting an LED setup for my 40 gal long, but I got 2 Sunblaster 54W T5HOs with 6500K bulbs for $29.95 each, so a grand total of $60 bucks. I put them in an old AGA T8 hood, that I painted flat white on the inside, and I have MORE then enough light. Granted a 40 gal long is fairly shallow, but if I had it on my 55 gal, I'd have no doubt it would grow most of the plants I want. I get a pretty nice spread, saved a bunch of money, and still have to pump CO2 quite a lot to keep algae away. It's not bad if you want to get good lighting, cheap. I simply drilled a few holes through the top of the hood, and used the mounting brackets that came with the lights for hanging them, and used that to attach it to the old hood. They have connector cables that come with each light, which allow you to either connect them to each other and run them through one timer, or hook them up to two separate timers. 

Sunblaster T5HO: https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/89116/SUN-904303.html You can also get reflectors for them as well. 

Or the other option is a decent fixture from Catalina Aquariums too. Their T5HO fixtures are reasonably priced, and I think atm, you are going to get more light out of one of their fixtures paying the same price you would for LEDs of a similar length. I don't think bulbs are honestly that expensive either. Just my .02cents. This was the fixture I was looking at, and you really can't beat the price: http://www.catalinaaquarium.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=1638


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

OVT said:


> I personally do not see a double standard here. The question is straightforward, keeping everything else constant within reason, the $$$ is the only variable.
> 
> So, the question is, how much for an equivalent LED set-up?
> 
> ...



$130..............
And you get more.........A LOT more. 
http://www.aquatraders.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=57725P


> LEDs Count: 48
> 5400 Lumens
> Super energy efficient 3 watt high output LEDs
> 48x 6,500K LED
> Use 144 watts


EXTERNAL.. "Ballast".. AFAICT even w/ an LED failure it would be a simple DIY fix..
Bump:


Wasserpest said:


> I love these instant statistics.
> 
> On a different note. Keep in mind that you (everyone) do not have to convince others that only you are right. Everyone has their opinion, can share and discuss here. If you (anyone) resort to name calling and "stirring the pot", thread closures and infractions are imminent. Keep these discussions focused on the subject at hand.


The topic is LED or T5.. I see no deviation from that...



> Stick with t5HO or go with LED?


not sure what you ar getting at..


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

talontsiawd said:


> I have never had a ballast fail and my T5 and T5HO fixtures have all been used for long periods of time, some fixtures are far from reputable brands too. As appealing as DIY LED's may be for a DIYer, that doesn't not mean they are for everyone. I know I could easily make a DIY LED fixture myself but I would rather buy, that's me.
> 
> I know Wasserpest just warned about getting off topic, I am sorry if I am but DIY lighting is just a plain bad idea for someone who doesn't know what they are doing. I feel that is important to state, if I get an infraction or not.


You can buy an LED fixture for the cost of DIY parts.. If one looks outside the box.....
http://www.aquatraders.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=57725P

The point of my "DIY" breakdown was to show just the "bulb" (s) cost more for LED year 1.. break even in year 2.. after that is it all gravy..

Sometimes we focus on the fluff more than the tech.. 

LED's aren't for everyone.. There are times I'd recommend t5's..
And HAVE.. if you look through my posts (granted it is not common) BUT when one asks t5's or LED the real facts need to be addressed.. not urban legends..

depth penetration, light output, color, "reds" are all design parameters chosen by a manuf. NOT a problem of the tech..
Then there is dimming, programming, variable spectrum's all arguably easier (and all added cost JUST like t5's) w/ LED's

Main point it takes work to screw up a t5 fixture design.. not so much to screw up an LED fixture..

As a side note.. any wonder why T5 manuf advertise "ease of ballast replacement" LOL..

http://youtu.be/VThnqtaghbc


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

talontsiawd said:


> I know Wasserpest just warned about getting off topic.





jeffkrol said:


> The topic is LED or T5.. I see no deviation from that...


I am not concerned with getting off topic. Sorry if that wasn't clear. The warning was for personal attacks and name calling. A few borderline cases here, so I thought a reminder was necessary. Respect others, even if they do not share your opinions.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Wasserpest said:


> I am not concerned with getting off topic. Sorry if that wasn't clear. The warning was for personal attacks and name calling. A few borderline cases here, so I thought a reminder was necessary. Respect others, even if they do not share your opinions.


no problems. IF I had inadvertently made anything sound as a personal attack I apologize..

Opinions are opinions and 
facts are facts.......... 

*To the O/P* one "new" thing we are now faced w/ is just not "how much" light but what we want the light to do or not do...

Or where we want the light placed..

The options have expanded quite a bit, and considering "just" output is not always the best course of action.. 

The "goal" needs to be more carefully thought out...


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

jeffkrol said:


> $130..............
> And you get more.........A LOT more.
> http://www.aquatraders.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=57725P


That price is looking much better.
Is that 31" fixture for a 48" tank?

v3


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

OVT said:


> That price is looking much better.
> Is that 31" fixture for a 48" tank?
> 
> v3


sorry, just grabbed a "light" from another thread:
translates to 110 lumens per Watt
in comparison 
95L/W for t5ho (generalized)












$180
http://www.aquatraders.com/LED-Aquarium-Lighting-EVO-Quad-Freshwater-Plant-p/56577p.htm
lm/w is low for some reason though.. But of course we want PAR or PUR.. 

nobody "shredded" the poster.. exactly.. 
http://s.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2371937


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

gus6464 said:


> But then again that's the age old debate on LED vs T5. LED is not strong enough to penetrate deep, LED has crap spectrum, LED costs an arm and leg, etc. As the reef side of things is showing over and over, the tech is there. Gotta love the double standard though, when an LED light costs $500 it's a fortune/overpriced; when an ATI T5HO fixture costs $500 it's a quality product.
> 
> Bump:
> 
> ...


I disagree with that. I think the ones in the market for a $500 fixture will get what they want, either way. It's just that many who have super high end fixtures on big tanks often tend to stay with T5HO's. On small tanks, it's the opposite, many don't feel the need to ever go back and LED's are the smart choice. It's just preference and application.




jeffkrol said:


> You can buy an LED fixture for the cost of DIY parts.. If one looks outside the box.....
> http://www.aquatraders.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=57725P
> 
> The point of my "DIY" breakdown was to show just the "bulb" (s) cost more for LED year 1.. break even in year 2.. after that is it all gravy..
> ...


Well, I have a Beamswork fixture myself and as I said, I am actually happy with it, but it taught me that I need an adjustable spectrum to be happy if I were to go more expensive. With my T5HO, I was perfectly happy with a 6,500k/10,000k combo when doing only carpet plants but moved to a 6,5000/Rosette bulb setup when adding some color. Way different spectrum and though I don't need that much flexibility, I need some. 

I know LED's don't have problems with penetration, the problem is, most planted fixtures don't use the tech well. I am familiar enough with Reef LED's to be super impressed, I never cared about LED's until I learned about the Reef side of it.

Put the right LED's in them make it very adjustable, but reduce the output to what I need an my budget may jump up. I just know that more lights are moving this way, there are a few that do this, but if I can't see something on a display tank, I likely won't be interested. That's why Build My LED has never caught my eye, for example, I want to see it in action and what it really does when controlled. Some with the new E-Series light, it seems more interesting than most but reading about, I am not quite sold. Seeing it in person may or may not change my mind. That's me, I got in this hobby because it was cheap, ended up wanting higher end stuff, spent a fortune, but enjoy my low tech tanks built on the cheap as much as anything. 

To get back on topic, I personally feel that a T5HO setup still splits the difference well. It's spectrum adjustable by replacing bulbs, for me, they have been reliable, they can be versatile if they have multiple banks, and usually are cheaper, depending. The cost to operate may be higher over time but for some, it's also easier to afford $30 a year in bulbs, a few bucks a month more in electricity, and have a lower cost. 

Furthermore, some like to experiment, some don't. I used to love it but I am not so into that anymore. I use a rule in my recording studio that everything has to stay for 3-5 years now, if I think I will want to upgrade or purchase something different to replace something sooner, I wait until I can afford better, or wait for something new to come out, whatever comes first. That's where I am at with LED's right now, nothing clearly fits my budget so I either up it (and it's far from a priority for myself right now), or wait. Unlike audio, the technology is much more obvious in where thing could be in a short time.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

All your points are valid.. 
BUT as an example (findings from researching the "SunSetter" controller :
The ind. bars are 48" @ 150 each though..
I like how they say the "real" numbers..
48 3W (Chinese?) Bridgelux LED's


> The REAL Numbers:
> A single ReefBar Pro adds PAR numbers of up to 100 (mms) to the bottom of 19 inches of water (light placed 3 inches above surface)
> Two of these bars can very easily become your Primary Lighting for a larger tank. A common goal for ideal lighting in a reef tank is about 90-120 (mms) at the top of your sand and two bars will give 120 at 24 inches. 3 bars will give over 100 at 30 inches deep.


(millimoles/meter/sec)???

SOMEDAY they will build one for a planted tank... 

I'd ague getting high light LED for a deep tank for $450 was "impossible" a year ago... 
432W (guessitimate) of LED's @ $1W................

Of course we can argue aesthetics and "reliability" all day.. but face it this is more than 80% solid state..


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