# Help, please?



## Lissette (Apr 2, 2005)

Have you tested your water for Po4 & No3? Please do so.

Have you started with the DIY Co2? You have a lot of light with little or no co2 and this is causing you some problems.

Yes, a large plant mass will help outcompete algae, but your light is high and co2 is essential at this point so that the plants can uptake nutrients.

Java Ferns and Java Moss do well in low light tanks and don't require that much attention. These plants are slow growers. They're not good for outcompeting algae. You need some fast growers in your tank.

Once you get your Co2 started, everything should fall into place. Make sure that Co2 is in the 25 to 30 ppm range. 

Remember, with a highlight setup you'll need to dose Macronutrients as well as Micronutrients.

HTH

Lissette

P.S. Fast growing plants are: Hornwort, Wisteria, Sunset Hygro, etc.


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## james (Apr 11, 2006)

Thanks for the reply.

I was under the impression mosses were fast growers; apparently not the case though. Well I have had the DIY CO2 running for about a week now, and the problem still hasn’t really been solved. 

Can you please recommend a test kit that will account for both Po4 & No3, as well as other parameters (i.e. GH, KH, etc.)?

Will more frequent water changes help the problem any until I can either get more plants or start dosing the appropriate nutrients?

Thanks again,



James


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## james (Apr 11, 2006)

*Here is my first post:*


> I have a 20-gallon long with 1 x 55 watt Bright Kit™ from A H Supply. The lights are on about 10 hours a day. This is between 3.1 and 3.3 WPG for the total water volume. I am using Seachem’s Flourish (twice a week), and Flourish Excel (2mL daily, but I might cut back to every other day), and two bags of Flourite substrate. I started the DIY CO2 yesterday and I have been dosing the Seachem products for about two weeks.
> 
> The tank is home to three dwarf puffers, two cherry shrimp, some java moss, and some java fern.
> 
> ...


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## james (Apr 11, 2006)

I have been running DIY CO2 for over a nine days now with little apparent affect so I explained my situation to the LFS and I was told I have a phosphate problem because I use tap water instead of bottled water.

I would like to test this, but all of the test kits I see come equipped with test strips. I would like the test kits that provide a more accurate reading, but I have not been able to find them. What are some high quality test kits that others use?

Also, if I go with bottled water, what type should I get? I believe there are a few different types that are sold in the 5-gallon handle jugs.

Until then, should I keep up with the mentioned dosing regiment or should I cut back?

Thanks for the help,



James


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

When you get BBA you can almost be certain you don't have enough CO2 in the water. So, that's the first recommendation - go to two bottles for DIY CO2, make sure it isn't leaking, and make sure you are diffusing it well into the water - you didn't say how you do that. Then, don't try to reduce the phosphate or nitrate in the water, because those are not the cause of algae problems. Lastly, you don't have enough plants - get a few bunches of fast growing, cheap stem plants, either here in swap n shop or at LFS, and at least float them.

You have a high light intensity on that tank, unneeded for the type plants you have now. One way to reduce it is to raise it a few inches above the tank. But, you can't use that much light, with that few plants, with that little CO2, without adequate phosphate, nitrate and traces, and avoid algae.


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## james (Apr 11, 2006)

Thanks a lot Lissette and Hoppy for your help and patience. I am fairly new at this and I appreciate the assistance.

I am attempting to diffuse the CO2 through a DIY contraption. The line for the CO2 is held inside of an inverted medicine container by a sponge. There is a little space about a quarter of an inch that allows the CO2 to contact the water. I get pretty large bubbles a couple of times a minute.










I think that is the weak link, if any. Perhaps the unit is not leaking, but as you said, there is just not enough CO2, or that it is not being diffused properly.

Too much CO2 is bad, and two bottles on a 20-gallon long sounds like a bit much. And the only way to know for sure is to be able to measure the GH and the KH, correct? But I don’t know a reliable way to do this, can you please recommend one (as far as test kits are concerned)?

You mentioned raising the lights off of the tank a few inches. Will that help reduce the algae or just slow it down until I can get fast growing plants?

As of now my plan is to get some wisteria, and then add another DIY CO2 which I assume will help the problem.

Will you please recommend a reliable test kit that will account for all of the necessary measurements?

Thanks again,



--James


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Aquarium Pharmaceuticals KH/GH kit works very well. I have their pH kit too, but it isn't nearly as good, because reading the color is difficult at the accuracy we need. A pH meter is probably the most accurate way within a reasonable price to do that.


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## Lissette (Apr 2, 2005)

Sorry I didn't answer sooner. My modem burned out.

Hoppy gave you some really good advice.

You measure Co2 by comparing kh and ph readings. Raising your lights will help until you get your co2 going.

The problem with DIY co2 is that it's so unstable. Pressurized co2 is the best, but not everyone can afford one. I suggest saving up for a 5lb tank. 

Boy, what a difference that will make.


Lissette:smile:


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

You can make a very cheap CO2 reactor to put in the filter return line and it will most likely get more of your CO2 into the water. See Rex Grigg's website for some instructions, or just search here for other people's ideas. I use pressurized CO2, and don't care much if my means of introducing CO2 is efficient or not, so I use a powerhead with a sponge filter and the CO2 line stuck into the powerhead inlet. I use about twice as much CO2 as I did with previous more efficient methods.


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## james (Apr 11, 2006)

I have done some tests and found:

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 40 ppm
pH 7.5
KH 10.1 degrees
CO2 7.6 ppm

Should I double-up, triple-up, or quadruple-up on the CO2? 

Also, instead of running that DIY diffuser, I hooked up the output of the DIY CO2 to the Venturi Collar on my Penguin Power Sponge Filter. This same port is to be used with air, so I figured it wouldn’t pose a problem using it for CO2. Now, instead of a couple of large bubbles every minute, I am getting a lot of little bubbles every minute. If this method more efficiently diffuses the CO2, then the ppm should increase as well, and if the ppm increases, then I shouldn’t have to run multiple bottles, correct?

Thanks,



James


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

Up that co2 considerably...keep a close eye on any fish or inverts. I would recommend lowering the nitrate level to aroud 20-25 if possible (water change). Check your tap water for nitrate and phosphate too. Google your city or county water report...example: Arlington County water quality report. Check the table for average nitrate and phosphate, and double check for chloramine (more and more heavily populated cities are adding it). 

Mosses and java ferns are fast growers in some conditions, slow in others. IME, they exploded when I had high light (4+ wpg) and lots and lots of nutrients...high nitrates like yours. HOWEVER, there is an imbalance in your tank somewhere. I suspect phosphates, but there is no telling. High biomass is good, but you still need high biomass of FAST growing plants suck as hornwort, rotala rotundifolia, hygro difformis, etc. 

Prune out what you can see...it will be painstakingly hard and tiresome. Patience and persistence will be the key to success. Up your co2, and lower your photoperiod down to 9 hours a day (for now).


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## random_alias (Jun 28, 2005)

It sounds like you have some issues you need to resolve and you've been getting very good advice.

There is one thing you can do that is simple in theory and sometimes difficult in practice...reduce your lighting. 

Your tank is full of undemanding plants. They don't require a lot of light and even if you got pressurized Co2 and a proper fertilizing routine you may be able to keep the 55w and avoid algae issues but 55w would still be overkill. What I'm saying is that you're attempting to artificially balance your system around the 55w because your system cannot naturally consume that much energy. If you reduce your lighting you may be able to avoid all the Co2 source, diffusion, and much of the fertilization requirements you're striving to meet.

If you successfully fix the Co2 and fert problems you'll still end up with a tank designed for faster growing plants because what you are attempting to do is raise all your other environmental conditions to keep pace with your lighting.

Raise the light, filter the light with wax paper or something that won't combust from the heat, reduce the photoperiod to 8-9 hours if you can't reduce the intensity. 

Addressing your light issue would go a long way towards controlling your algae and it would also make it much easier for you to augment your lighting with proper Co2 and fert levels, if they are even needed after a light intensity reduction.

What you'll end up with is a more stable, more forgiving, lower maintenance and less expensive tank. There's no reason to have to do all this stuff with mosses and ferns unless you enjoy running a high tech system, which most everyone does enjoy at some point because we like to feel involved.

Just mentioning that you can work from either direction. You can adjust everything to meet the light you already have or you can adjust the light to meet everything else you already have.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

That is great advice for this tank. Well said Jean Luc!


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## Evergreen (May 1, 2006)

Good advice here! I started using the sticky method of dosing right off the bat. When I did get my test kits I found Nitrate at 40-50ppm and phosphate a 5.0! I have a hight light and pressurized co2 and was still getting all the BBG BGA GW #*&!! algae:icon_roll Once I lowered my nitrates to around 20 and phosphate around .5, and raised my lights, all is well. Also, I would think you PH should be much lower, must not have enough co2. Truth is all these methods must be fine tune to each individual tank and I imagine that the needs of our tanks will change with time and maturity. 

Good Luck,

Keith,



Georgiadawgger said:


> Up that co2 considerably...keep a close eye on any fish or inverts. I would recommend lowering the nitrate level to aroud 20-25 if possible (water change). Check your tap water for nitrate and phosphate too. Google your city or county water report...example: Arlington County water quality report. Check the table for average nitrate and phosphate, and double check for chloramine (more and more heavily populated cities are adding it).
> 
> Mosses and java ferns are fast growers in some conditions, slow in others. IME, they exploded when I had high light (4+ wpg) and lots and lots of nutrients...high nitrates like yours. HOWEVER, there is an imbalance in your tank somewhere. I suspect phosphates, but there is no telling. High biomass is good, but you still need high biomass of FAST growing plants suck as hornwort, rotala rotundifolia, hygro difformis, etc.
> 
> Prune out what you can see...it will be painstakingly hard and tiresome. Patience and persistence will be the key to success. Up your co2, and lower your photoperiod down to 9 hours a day (for now).


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## james (Apr 11, 2006)

http://www.csupomona.edu/~fpm/Management/water_quality_report_2003.pdf#search='pomona%20california%20water%20quality%20report'

On the bottom of the linked page, there is a chart that lists the appropriate information, but the information is given for both the groundwater and the surface water. Which one should I be concerned with?

Thanks to everyone for the advice.



--James


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## Evergreen (May 1, 2006)

james said:


> http://www.csupomona.edu/~fpm/Management/water_quality_report_2003.pdf#search='pomona%20california%20water%20quality%20report'
> 
> On the bottom of the linked page, there is a chart that lists the appropriate information, but the information is given for both the groundwater and the surface water. Which one should I be concerned with?
> 
> ...


James,

Why not just test your tap yourself? Although the results have to be taken with a grain of salt, they should tell you if there is a problem.


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## james (Apr 11, 2006)

I only ask because Georgiadawgger advised:


> Check your tap water for nitrate and phosphate too. Google your city or county water report...example: Arlington County water quality report. Check the table for average nitrate and phosphate, and double check for chloramine (more and more heavily populated cities are adding it).


I have already checked for everything except phosphate. Hopefully I can get a test kit for that today.



James


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

james said:


> http://www.csupomona.edu/~fpm/Management/water_quality_report_2003.pdf#search='pomona%20california%20water%20quality%20report'
> 
> On the bottom of the linked page, there is a chart that lists the appropriate information, but the information is given for both the groundwater and the surface water. Which one should I be concerned with?
> 
> ...


If they are like my water agency they get water from both wells and river water, which have very different sets of ingredients. At any given time of the year the mix may be different. So, I just assume the numbers are the limits on what is in the water, not an analysis of the exact water coming from the tap.


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## Evergreen (May 1, 2006)

On subject, does anyone know of a company that will do a thorough testing of a water sample for a reasonable cost?


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## james (Apr 11, 2006)

*All pictures are from 06/06/06. Rather appropriate for this hellish condition, no?*

*This is what my water looks like; there are literally threads of algae:*









Per everyone's advice, I have been making some changes. I have purchased three bundles of _Anacharis_ and I have added another CO2 bottle. I had to get plastic joints for splicing the airline, and I have some concerns about its integrity. Does anyone know if these plastic airline pieces are strong enough to deal with the pressure generated by CO2? I would have picked up a brass fitting, but the LFS was out of them.

*This is the tank before I cleaned it out, and planted the Anacharis:*









The floating jar is for an experiment I am conducting. Apparently, the moss in the capsule has not been contaminated by algae. The jar has a hole on the top, exposing the moss to the algae-infested water, yet there is still no formation of algae on the jar or on the moss. The jar is, however, stuck in a continuous spin between the filter and the glass because of the current. Perhaps it is this constant spinning that prevents algae from forming? Well, in order to see if this is true, I removed the jar from behind the filter and placed it where it would not spin. After a couple of days, algae had formed on both the jar and the moss. I then cleaned the jar and moss, and returned it back its current position. Since then, neither the jar nor the moss has developed algae. This happens even though the tank continues to be bombarded with algae. I just wanted to share because I thought this was an interesting observation.

*This, on the other hand, is moss that has been attempting to grow on some drift wood:*









*This is the same moss and wood about 12 days ago:*









One more thing: should I scrub off the algae growing on the glass? I have read numerous reports advocating leaving it be as doing so will let it mature and eventually die off. Is this accurate?

Any comments, concerns, or criticism? I will post pictures tomorrow to document the tank’s development.

Thanks again everybody,



James


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

The algae on the glass is probably green dust algae. If so, Tom Barr has determined that it can be eradicated by letting it grow unmolested for two weeks or more, as it changes from the zoospore form to the mature form of the algae. It then dies off, or you can scrape it off, and it should not again return. I am now 17 days into trying that on my tank. My green dust has changed to a darker green, is thinning out and falling off, and the snails are growing to giant size from eating it.

From the photo, you don't have nearly enough plants in the tank, which opens up opportunities for algae to start growing.


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## james (Apr 11, 2006)

> From the photo, you don't have nearly enough plants in the tank, which opens up opportunities for algae to start growing.


Really? I have about 20 or so stem os _Anacharis_. Should I get more? I was told with these things, this quantity should be more than enough. Should I cut them and distribute them around the tank, or should I leave them bunched up?



--James


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Ideally you want to start out with well over half of the substrate with plants planted in it. Floating plants are good too, but, in my opinion, most of the plants should be planted in the substrate. Once the tank is doing well you can replace any plants you don't want to keep with the plants you prefer.


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## james (Apr 11, 2006)

I went out and purchased higher quality test kits and have found the following:

Ammonia 0 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 5-10 ppm
pH 7.0-7.2
dKH 11-12
dGH 21-22 
CO2 20-36 ppm

The CO2 varies because of the margin of error included in the sampling. I do believe the CO2 is in the 22-24 ppm range. I am running two DIY CO2 bottles and one needs to be changed out. I have also doubled my plant load—I now have about seven bunches, or about 35-45 stems, of anacharis plus two bunches of java fern and java moss. I have read that Anacharis can be sensitive to Excel so I haven’t been dosing it, but I have started dosing Flourish again. May I please receive some help with these questions?

1. Is there anything wrong with these parameters?
2. Should I do more water changes?
3. The algae on the glass is now brown; should I scrub it off or will it fall off on its own?
4. By manually removing algae from the tank, am I helping the plants or will the plants eventually out-compete the algae for nutrients regardless of the algae’s prevalence in the tank?

Thanks for all of the help,



James


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## mrbelvedere (Nov 15, 2005)

james said:


> 1. Is there anything wrong with these parameters?
> 2. Should I do more water changes?
> 3. The algae on the glass is now brown; should I scrub it off or will it fall off on its own?
> 4. By manually removing algae from the tank, am I helping the plants or will the plants eventually out-compete the algae for nutrients regardless of the algae’s prevalence in the tank?



You sound like you are doing everything you can. Your parameters sound fine. Manually removing algae never hurts, and only speeds the process where plants gain the upper hand. Brown algae can be a number of things. Water changes are always good.


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## james (Apr 11, 2006)

I let the anacharis float for about four days and today I planted all 55 stems; the stems take up roughly 50 percent of the substrate. Last night I scrubbed the algae off the glass and performed a 60 percent water change.

Is there anything else I can do to help this algae problem? I really want to start acquiring plants of my choice rather than planting all of these fast growing stems—my tank looks like a farm with them in there.

Please understand the ‘scape is just to accommodate the plants. One day, after I get this algae problem under control, it will hopefully look right.

Thanks,



James



*The farm:*

















*The crop:*


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## james (Apr 11, 2006)

After changing the water, I noticed the plants had bubbles on their leaves. Was this pearling, or was this just bubbles from the CO2? 



























There is a noticeable difference between these two pictures:


















Is this because of the clearer water, or is this because the plants are responding to the increase in CO2?

Thanks,



James


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