# Jungle val and sand - A poor combination?



## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Until recently my experience with jungle val was that it grows like a weed. Relentlessly and unforgiving to the point where I've seen runners uproot other plants. However, recently I switched to a sand substrate and got vals from an online store I've been ordering from for years and in short, the vals are growing at an unrecognizable rate. My current setup includes

Liquid ferts
T5 LED Lighting
Pressurized CO2 @1bps


And I have grown jungle val fast without any of the above so my only conclusion is that growing plants in a sand substrate (something I've never done before) is somehow a factor. I got the vals in the middle of June and 10 weeks later they've grown 10-15cm. Where as in other setups jungle val would have reached the surface, needing to be cut before it's starts impact the light.

Any ideas?


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Depending on the sand there could be issues. What type are you using, grain size? 
Not a sand user for plants, but my thought would be that if the roots are in a small grain sized sand then they may have issues with oxygen. Compacted sand, no oxygen=root rot or very very slow anything. But this is all a guesstimate, someone else will have better insights I am sure.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Did you have the jungle val grow well in the soil in the discus tank, at higher temperatures?
I have never been able to grow val in my discus tanks. Ive always assumed it was due to the high temps. I do have val in my 180 (78 degrees) that grows pretty good. I do have to use root tabs in sand, however, to get good, fast growth. Just liquid dosing in the water column ( for low-tech) is not enough, IME, to get rapid growth.


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## tamsin (Jan 12, 2011)

Are you sure it's jungle val and not a mix up on species?


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Jamo33 said:


> Depending on the sand there could be issues. What type are you using, grain size?
> Not a sand user for plants, but my thought would be that if the roots are in a small grain sized sand then they may have issues with oxygen. Compacted sand, no oxygen=root rot or very very slow anything. But this is all a guesstimate, someone else will have better insights I am sure.


Your guesstimate is also my assumption. I might have to look into augmenting my substrate a little. I've got about 60 lined against the back stretching from one end to the next. The saind grain is "larger" but still compact.



Discusluv said:


> Did you have the jungle val grow well in the soil in the discus tank, at higher temperatures?
> I have never been able to grow val in my discus tanks. Ive always assumed it was due to the high temps. I do have val in my 180 (78 degrees) that grows pretty good. I do have to use root tabs in sand, however, to get good, fast growth. Just liquid dosing in the water column ( for low-tech) is not enough, IME, to get rapid growth.


Hey Discus luv. I'm using the val at higher temps too in my discus tank. The temp is 28C/82F but vals are supposed to be ok at 28C according to tropica.



tamsin said:


> Are you sure it's jungle val and not a mix up on species?



I'm not sure what you mean? It's a very specific plant with very distinct variations, right? Your post has me panicking a little lol.I know they have a twisted, wider, and red variants. But it does looks like Jungle val to me.


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## tamsin (Jan 12, 2011)

RollaPrime said:


> I'm not sure what you mean? It's a very specific plant with very distinct variations, right? Your post has me panicking a little lol.I know they have a twisted, wider, and red variants. But it does looks like Jungle val to me.



Yes, I agree - just checking, like you say there are a few variations and if you're not familiar with val a few other plants that are similar at a glance 



What are you fertilising with? The plants look fairly green/healthy but the growth shape looks a little off - like they are curling to the side/stunting. I wonder if you are missing a micro nutrient. I'd probably go for some complete root tabs. 



I don't think the sand is an issue - the base of the plant looks healthy - maybe just that the sand is inert (no built in nutrients) and hasn't had time to build up any mulm so you're a bit short on food.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

tamsin said:


> Yes, I agree - just checking, like you say there are a few variations and if you're not familiar with val a few other plants that are similar at a glance
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey Tasmin

I'm running a discus tank so mulm really isn't an option for me. The growth on a lot of it is wider than you'd expect for jungle val. When I got they were the traditional slim / tall plants you'd expect but I cut them back during the quarantine / bleach dip process.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Your sand doesn’t look to fine to me, hard to tell though in online photo with compression. If majority is 1mm or larger it should be fine. 

New sand, just like other inert/no CEC substrate needs a little time to build up hints of organic matter that raises its CEC value that makes it fertile. If you’ve got some spaghnum peat you can inserting a pinch of it under under each crown with your planting tweezers to help that along.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

I am going along with everyone else here and saying the sand just doesn't have much in the way of plant food in it yet. That will change over time.

I will also hazard a guess that whatever fertilizer you are dosing does not have nitrogen in it. And since this is a discus tank you are probably doing a lot of water changes... so nitrate is not building up in the tank the way it would in a more 'normal' tank. So inert substrate, very clean water, no nitrogen in ferts = slow growth.

If this is in fact the issue then you can simply dose something with nitrogen in it to solve your problem.


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## tamsin (Jan 12, 2011)

Another way to confirm the lack of nutrient theory would be to add some floating plants e.g. frogbit temporarily. As they grow quick and have access to CO2 from the air they show deficiencies quite clearly. If they grow green and healthy your nutrients are good, if they a yellow/stripey/stunted you know you are missing something and can start dosing.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

@DaveKS @minorhero @tamsin

I appreciate the feedback guys. Running a discus tank creates issues with Nitrate I have never faced before. It was never a concern but now it's a constant worry. Recently i had a dream about a mass die off and really sick discus in a tank full of with greenish greyish water...

Myself having dreams about the hobby has never happened before in all the years I've been in this hobby.

Back on topic, I made some substrate changes.


















It took an absolute age to create a space/gap at the back of the tank . I dropped some dennerle black substrate in a 5-7cm gap and replanted the vals. I think it'll take a few weeks to see the results. If it is the sand that is the issue then growth should be rapid after a few days of adjustment.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Vals are notoriously heavy root feeders. When mine grow next to the glass, I can see the substrate is markedly lighter.

I'd second @Discusluv & @tamsin in recommending root tabs. That way you can keep the nitrates low and substrate mulm-free, and the vals should still get plenty of nutrients & grow well. Mine really took off when my tests were showing zero ammonia/nitrites/nitrates, but were getting nutrients from a thin soil layer under an STS cap, and now from root tabs.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

So...

A thing happened! And, in this instance, I am so pessimistic that I think I made a mistake or I'm getting a false reading. 










Prior to this I was doing 3 water changes weekly to keep my nitrates at around 10ppm. My water change schedule is 31G WC Wednesday, 31G WC Saturday, and 53G WC on Sunday. I removed 5ml for testing just before the WC today and I'm absolutely shocked to see the reading that yellow. I was expecting the usual light orange indicating 10ppm of nitrate. Needless to say I'm absolutely ecstatic about this and also stunned and shocked.


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## tamsin (Jan 12, 2011)

I'd retest and make sure you really shake the bottle. If your using tap water the nitrate content can vary so that can fluctuate even if your tank doesn't change.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

tamsin said:


> I'd retest and make sure you really shake the bottle. If your using tap water the nitrate content can vary so that can fluctuate even if your tank doesn't change.


I tested my aquarium for nitrates for about two weeks straight so I have no problem doing the same again. In terms of the zero reading nitrate test above, I removed 5ml in a syringe before the water change. And tested that after I had completed the WC so it's definitely not mixed with the fresh water from the tap.


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