# Stuck in an endless cycle--opinions needed



## Fishstery (Jan 24, 2018)

Hey everyone!

Some of you have been following my nano dutch journal. It's had its ups and downs and for a while seemed that it finally reached a balance until I accidentally introduced spiro from another hobbyists cuttings. I started dosing API Algaefix which ended up killing the spiro and causing a lot of regular green hair algae to die. It seems all the algae dying triggered another cyano outbreak. So I used ultralife green slime remover and killed the cyano. The dead cyano triggered another round of hair algae and the spiro came back. Killed it off which again trigger cyano because I am practicing nitrate limitation in the tank which isn't helping. It seems I'm now stuck in an endless cycle, kill one algae which triggers the other and vice versa. Any ideas on how to fix this? I try to manually remove as much as I can but considering how wide spread cyano and hair algae are and how dense my plant mass is its literally impossible to remove 100% of any decaying algae. 

I tried reducing my light by 20 PAR but somehow the hair algae just got worse. I'm still trying to kill off this current bout of cyano, so at the moment I have spiro hair algae AND cyano and I can't figure out which one I should target without triggering the other. 

Thanks guys!


----------



## fish man (Jan 6, 2022)

Newbie283 said:


> Hey everyone!
> 
> Some of you have been following my nano dutch journal. It's had its ups and downs and for a while seemed that it finally reached a balance until I accidentally introduced spiro from another hobbyists cuttings. I started dosing API Algaefix which ended up killing the spiro and causing a lot of regular green hair algae to die. It seems all the algae dying triggered another cyano outbreak. So I used ultralife green slime remover and killed the cyano. The dead cyano triggered another round of hair algae and the spiro came back. Killed it off which again trigger cyano because I am practicing nitrate limitation in the tank which isn't helping. It seems I'm now stuck in an endless cycle, kill one algae which triggers the other and vice versa. Any ideas on how to fix this? I try to manually remove as much as I can but considering how wide spread cyano and hair algae are and how dense my plant mass is its literally impossible to remove 100% of any decaying algae.
> 
> ...


my brother had a ton of hair algae and then his pearl gourami and 2 kuhli loaches ate it all. i don't know if that helps but just something that might


----------



## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

I’d stop dosing these algae killers in your tank for one. You run a ton of light for plants that will thrive in like 30-50 PAR.

Consider doing less honestly. Water changes, manual removal, gravel vac, keep that up. Good general hygiene and then time. I read you move plants a lot, uproot em constantly, etc. Try to do less large changes to the tank.

Sounds like you tend to favor quick fixes, so why not try a blackout? Hit them all at the same time. I feel like all these issues are harkoning back to a different set of root problems, and my bet is on Co2 and o2 management, patience, and persistence.


----------



## Fishstery (Jan 24, 2018)

puopg said:


> I’d stop dosing these algae killers in your tank for one. You run a ton of light for plants that will thrive in like 30-50 PAR.
> 
> Consider doing less honestly. Water changes, manual removal, gravel vac, keep that up. Good general hygiene and then time. I read you move plants a lot, uproot em constantly, etc. Try to do less large changes to the tank.
> 
> Sounds like you tend to favor quick fixes, so why not try a blackout? Hit them all at the same time. I feel like all these issues are harkoning back to a different set of root problems, and my bet is on Co2 and o2 management, patience, and persistence.


I only dosed the algae killer per Tom barrs recommendation for spiro algae. It is like cladophora and is impossible to kill otherwise. I also don't do any major changes to the tank other than regular maintenance for a dutch tank. Uprooting, cutting off the old bottoms, and replanting the tops is necessary every now and then for these tanks as the stems get too dense and the lower leaves get less and less light until they start to die and become algae inhibitors. I made a few changes here and there within the first month of it running which is pretty typical for a lot of people with dutch tanks. Other than doing that periodically I just trim plants scrape the glass and vaccum the substrate with the turkey baster method. I havent moved anything around in a month or so and i never had these algae problems when i was moving or adding plants. It came about after I finally got everything how I wanted it started a "regular" maintenance routine. I do weekly 50-75% water changes with RO. What sparked it all was the introduction of the spirogyra. I will agree I run super high light which i just lowered to 130 PAR, but I also run rich co2 and o2. So what would your thoughts be on my co2 and o2 management? I have never used a blackout to treat for algae before, Im worried my plants would take a hit from that and it won't kill the but I'd be willing to try it I guess.

Edit: since it seems a blackout might be a good place to start and then I can start off fresh and lower my light settings once the blackout is done would you mind answering some questions about how to go about doing it? Like I mentioned I've never gone this route before in a high tech so I have questions hahaha.


----------



## #DizzyIzzy1 (Sep 24, 2020)

Well, sounds like we are both chasing our tails. I too have been going through this. First green hair algae, started dosing Excel then I got cyanobacteria . I've been manually removing as much as I can and turned down the lights. I did some Google searches on Excel, Blue/Green algae , and Erythromycin. Then I came across an article about the redfield ratio. So it states that a ratio 16 to 1, Nitrogen to Phosphate , if Nitrogen is high green algae will occur. High phosphates and you get Cyno. My search of Excel revealed that it contains phosphates so I assume this triggered my Cyno outbreak. My search on Erythromycin came with you-tube videos where the host explained exactly found in the Redfield Ratio. He suggested if you have Cyno, you dose Nitrogen, and for green algae, dose phosphates. His third choice was to use Erythromycin, and as a last resort do a Blackout. I think I'm going to try balancing my Nitrogen/Phosphate, their is too much controversy as if Erythromycin kills beneficial bacteria in the filter. Just my thoughts, we'll see if this pans out.


----------



## Fishstery (Jan 24, 2018)

#DizzyIzzy1 said:


> Well, sounds like we are both chasing our tails. I too have been going through this. First green hair algae, started dosing Excel then I got cyanobacteria . I've been manually removing as much as I can and turned down the lights. I did some Google searches on Excel, Blue/Green algae , and Erythromycin. Then I came across an article about the redfield ratio. So it states that a ratio 16 to 1, Nitrogen to Phosphate , if Nitrogen is high green algae will occur. High phosphates and you get Cyno. My search of Excel revealed that it contains phosphates so I assume this triggered my Cyno outbreak. My search on Erythromycin came with you-tube videos where the host explained exactly found in the Redfield Ratio. He suggested if you have Cyno, you dose Nitrogen, and for green algae, dose phosphates. His third choice was to use Erythromycin, and as a last resort do a Blackout. I think I'm going to try balancing my Nitrogen/Phosphate, their is too much controversy as if Erythromycin kills beneficial bacteria in the filter. Just my thoughts, we'll see if this pans out.


I too have read that about cyano. Not sure about phosphates and green algae however. I dose APT complete which IMO is pretty lean I rarely ever have measurable nitrate. I haven't tested phosphate in some time though, but I use RO water in this particular tank to cut down on "if" factors. I didn't have a major green hair algae problem even with the high lighting, the issue was when I had to nuke the spiro with algaefix as I couldn't find any other way to get rid of it other than an algaecide unfortunately. I tried to ride it out for 2 weeks but it started to get worse so I figured I should take care of it before it got out of hand. Once it died off the cyano came which I would assume from my low nitrogen in conjunction with the die off of spiro and green algae. I only dealt with cyano in this tank during the first 6-8 weeks of setup which was pretty normal. I hadn't seen the sprio since the algae fix dose but lo and behold it returned when I dealt with the cyano. I'm thinking the other member is right and I should try to kill multiple birds with one stone and do a blackout after my water change this Sunday and see how that goes. After 3 days when I uncover the tank I'll knock my lighting down another 20 PAR or so and see where that gets me. My photoperiod is only 6 hours as it is. At some point I would like to reintroduce shrimp back into the tank ad well.

I've just never done a blackout before so I'm not sure if I should dose ferts and turn off my co2 during it? Should I run the co2 but add an airstone? I'll need some advice on that matter.


----------



## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

Yea blackouts are pretty straight forward. You just need to totally block the light from all angles, so using black trash bags, towels, whatever. Some tape to keep it tight. No light for 3 days

The more you remove before the better, so first clean stuff as best you can beforehand.

I drop an air stone in during the 3 days and then I also have used a little excel just to hit it a bit during the blackout as well. Then when you are done with the 3 days, 75% to 100% water change. If your plants are healthy, they should be fine.

Don’t run co2 and no ferts during blackout. Intuitively speaking here, there’s no point, your plants won’t need it when there’s no light.

You likely will still see some leftover algae, but now you can handle the remaining stuff more easily. Blackouts are more effective vs green algaes vs say BBA, which it really won’t do much to. So this is why I suggested this route for your case.

Also for your lighting, your running at like 110-130 PAR or something right? Would you be open to dropping down to say 60-80? Starting off a lot lower, but giving you more forgiveness and time to check other aspects of the tank like CO2, flow. Are you able to drop your pH a full point (like 7.2 to 6.2) purely with CO2 being added? Not sure if you own one already, but $100 super well spent on a pH probe and meter like the pinpoint pH probe. I use it basically every day in a tanks early stages to monitor my "general" CO2 levels.


----------



## Fishstery (Jan 24, 2018)

puopg said:


> Don’t run co2 and no ferts during blackout. Intuitively speaking here, there’s no point, your plants won’t need it when there’s no light.
> 
> You likely will still see some leftover algae, but now you can handle the remaining stuff more easily. Blackouts are more effective vs green algaes vs say BBA, which it really won’t do much to. So this is why I suggested this route for your case.
> 
> Also for your lighting, your running at like 110-130 PAR or something right? Would you be open to dropping down to say 60-80? Starting off a lot lower, but giving you more forgiveness and time to check other aspects of the tank like CO2, flow. Are you able to drop your pH a full point (like 7.2 to 6.2) purely with CO2 being added? Not sure if you own one already, but $100 super well spent on a pH probe and meter like the pinpoint pH probe. I use it basically every day in a tanks early stages to monitor my "general" CO2 levels.


I'm going to try dropping it down somewhere between 80-100 after the blackout is complete. It was 150 and I just dropped it to 130 earlier this week. I don't know what my pH drop is because of the fact that the API liquid kit doesn't go below 6 and my tank water is soft and acidic. I think a reliable pH pen will be my next investment. I went onto the barr report again and found a thread mr.barr wrote about spiro, seems more co2 and lower light could be the key to keeping growth rate down. My co2 is already super high for this sized tank so after the blackout I will keep the co2 where it is but lower the light like I said. He also noted a multiple blackout approach, do a 3 day blackout and lower the light afterwards. Do a water change and then start up the co2 and fert dosing. Let the plants recover for 3-10 days depending on their general condition afterwards and then do another blackout. Repeat however many times it's needed and the plants can stand. So I will post the progress after this next inital blackout and see where that gets me. Thanks a lot for your opinion! The tank is due for a WC Sunday, so I will trim what's needed, do a manual removal, 75% WC and shut the co2 down and start the blackout.

Okay so I just did a 75% WC with RO. I tried my best to remove as much hair algae as I could although 90% of it is stuck in my monte carlo carpet so I couldn't get all of it. Same with the cyano, which seems to be dying off already but there's still some underneath the carpet and on the edges of the older leaves on my stem plants. Since turning down the light intensity I actually found some gray already dead tufts of hair algae. The spiro however is starting to get out of control. I decided not to trim any of my plants although the stems are definitely due for one. I figured if my plants are going to be stressed after the blackout I should probably just leave the very healthy tops alone. I also already cleaned out the canister, replaced the filter floss, and added fresh purigen on my last WC to try and help the algae problem so I left the filter alone as well. When I uncover the tank I will do a large 75% WC and replace the filter floss again but leave the plants alone to recover. 3 days later it will be due for the regular weekly WC which I will do another 75% and then trim my stem plants off the surface to trigger fresh growth. 

The tank is all set for the blackout, my betta was fed and the airstone put in. I unplugged the co2 solenoid and the light and double bagged it with black trash bags making sure to cover the lily pipes too and then threw a thick towel over since this room gets tons of natural light. 

Here's some pictures of the algae before, which definitely isn't terrible but too far spread about the tank to try manual removal at this point, also a picture of the tank covered up. I'll update you guys on Wednesday or Thursday! Tom barr noted that downoi has a hard time with blackouts so fingers crossed I don't have any problems with my plants. Despite having super low gh and kh the downoi has been doing great in the tank, it would be a shame to lose it.


----------



## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

Heres to hoping for the best! Good luck!


----------



## Fishstery (Jan 24, 2018)

puopg said:


> Heres to hoping for the best! Good luck!


Thanks! Speaking of tons of natural lighting, any thoughts behind that being a possibility in causing the extra algae? The sun rises around 8am and is the room is very bright by 9-10am on less cloudy days. My lights don't come on until 1pm and the photoperiod is only 6 hours. Im wondering if perhaps that may be playing into the problem. Although I find it odd I had zero hair algae problems the first 2 months this tank was running, at 180 PAR at the substrate with less plant mass? Another intriguing thought, I had more algae problems when I switched my twinstar for a chihiros and completely saturated the tank with a red/blue color spectrum.


----------



## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

Newbie283 said:


> Thanks! Speaking of tons of natural lighting, any thoughts behind that being a possibility in causing the extra algae? The sun rises around 8am and is the room is very bright by 9-10am on less cloudy days. My lights don't come on until 1pm and the photoperiod is only 6 hours. Im wondering if perhaps that may be playing into the problem. Although I find it odd I had zero hair algae problems the first 2 months this tank was running, at 180 PAR at the substrate with less plant mass? Another intriguing thought, I had more algae problems when I switched my twinstar for a chihiros and completely saturated the tank with a red/blue color spectrum.


Yea that could be a reason too, though hard to say for sure what ambient PAR you get. My kitchen gets a lot of natural light as well, but it’s still nothing compared to outside and indirect sunlight.

IME, generally the first few weeks of a new setup are like the honeymoon phase, **** doesn’t really go wrong. It’s the weeks immediately after those first 6, then algae pops up.

And I also have a Chihiros, wrgb2. Running that thing at 100% is way too much light for me, so I run it at almost 40%, the exact settings I use are 27-45-45 (R-G-B) for reference. (I like the less red since greens pop a lot more.)


----------



## Fishstery (Jan 24, 2018)

puopg said:


> Yea that could be a reason too, though hard to say for sure what ambient PAR you get. My kitchen gets a lot of natural light as well, but it’s still nothing compared to outside and indirect sunlight.
> 
> IME, generally the first few weeks of a new setup are like the honeymoon phase, **** doesn’t really go wrong. It’s the weeks immediately after those first 6, then algae pops up.
> 
> And I also have a Chihiros, wrgb2. Running that thing at 100% is way too much light for me, so I run it at almost 40%, the exact settings I use are 27-45-45 (R-G-B) for reference. (I like the less red since greens pop a lot more.)


The stock intensity out of the box for the vivid mini in my tank was 364 at the substrate which is absolutely insane. Granted it's a shallow tank but still impressive for the price point. It outdid my twinstar E series by a long mile. I tweaked the light down before the blackout started, I'm now running 112 PAR at the substrate with red and dark blue at 37% and green at 17% since I'm growing mostly red plants. Id like to be able to knock it down further but my hygrophila chai doesnt do well under 120 PAR so im already pressing the matter. Like most dutch tanks this thing is nothing but pure blood sweat and tears even for it only being a 5 gal but the payoff is very much worth it. I'm super anxious to uncover the tank. I'll probably do that tomorrow so I'll update you guys then.


----------



## Fishstery (Jan 24, 2018)

Soo I uncovered the tank a minute ago. Somehow the cyano is worse? The hair algae that's been growing in one patch in the dead center of the carpet...still alive. One thing that did die from the blackout however was the spirogyra from what I can see. Hopefully it stays dead because that stuff is a real B word. Not sure where I should go from here....any ideas? Should I attempt another blackout in a few days or ride this out for a week with the lower light intensity and see how it goes? I'm going to do a quick water change shortly and replace the filter floss and plug everything back in. 

















Good thing is all the plants seem to be just fine. I'm a bit confused on whether or not light was still able to get into the tank somehow, most of the plants weren't closed up like they are when the tank lights have been off for awhile. The monte carlo was definitely reaching upwards like it was looking for light but all the leaves on my stems were wide open. The AR mini was a tad bit closed but yeah im confused as to why the cyano didn't die. I did two layers of black trash bag with a thick towel. I stuck my head underneath before the blackout to see if I could see any ambient light getting through the tank covering and didn't see anything. Soooo idk


----------



## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

I think based on the stems growing up, you blocked out the light. I mean you could always have gone more overkill, but I think ya did fine. The cyano looks like its melting off the plants compared, looking at the Downoi from before and after. Have you tried to scrub it off and suck that stuff out of the tank? I feel like it should come away more easily.

As for the hair algae, i dunno I guess its hard for my eyes to gauge, but yes its still there, but I feel like its been hit well. Trim away what you can, remove as much as you can now, and again, water change it up.

I have had this happen to me before, and you could try again for another few days if you so wish, but id remove as much as you can before another round.


----------



## Fishstery (Jan 24, 2018)

puopg said:


> I think based on the stems growing up, you blocked out the light. I mean you could always have gone more overkill, but I think ya did fine. The cyano looks like its melting off the plants compared, looking at the Downoi from before and after. Have you tried to scrub it off and suck that stuff out of the tank? I feel like it should come away more easily.
> 
> As for the hair algae, i dunno I guess its hard for my eyes to gauge, but yes its still there, but I feel like its been hit well. Trim away what you can, remove as much as you can now, and again, water change it up.
> 
> I have had this happen to me before, and you could try again for another few days if you so wish, but id remove as much as you can before another round.


Yes I did a 75% WC and rubbed some of the plant leaves between my fingers to loosen up the cyano and vacced it up. I couldn't get everything, but it did seem more loosely attached than before. As for the hair algae, I also rubbed that between my fingers and maybe it's placebo effect or maybe not, but it seemed much more slimey than usual so maybe the algae cells are breaking down. I didn't have time to do an intensive maintenance session, but at the very least did the WC with some manual removal of algae and I put fresh filter floss in again. Hopefully the purigen will help me out with some of the decaying organic matter. Sunday is my actual WC day for all my tanks, so I will trim the plants then. They are actually overdue for their first full hack down, typically in dutch or stem heavy tanks it's beneficial to cut the stems all the way down to 4 inches or so above the substrate to completely regenerate new healthy growth, but considering they just went under some stress with the black out I think I will just do another regular trim of the tips and wait until next week to hack em. I'll see how the next few days or so go with the algae now that I lowered the PAR and decide if I need to do another 3 day black out.


----------



## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

Newbie283 said:


> Yes I did a 75% WC and rubbed some of the plant leaves between my fingers to loosen up the cyano and vacced it up. I couldn't get everything, but it did seem more loosely attached than before. As for the hair algae, I also rubbed that between my fingers and maybe it's placebo effect or maybe not, but it seemed much more slimey than usual so maybe the algae cells are breaking down. I didn't have time to do an intensive maintenance session, but at the very least did the WC with some manual removal of algae and I put fresh filter floss in again. Hopefully the purigen will help me out with some of the decaying organic matter. Sunday is my actual WC day for all my tanks, so I will trim the plants then. They are actually overdue for their first full hack down, typically in dutch or stem heavy tanks it's beneficial to cut the stems all the way down to 4 inches or so above the substrate to completely regenerate new healthy growth, but considering they just went under some stress with the black out I think I will just do another regular trim of the tips and wait until next week to hack em. I'll see how the next few days or so go with the algae now that I lowered the PAR and decide if I need to do another 3 day black out.


gotcha, we’ll that’s good to hear. Honestly if you have some time, I’d argue that now is the best time to do the intensive cleaning as things are at their weakest. If you have time tommorrow, I’d budget and hour if you can! Totally understand if that’s not feasible but if it were me, I wouldn’t give algae a chance when I’m at the end of the treatment. You didn’t wait 3 days just to go easy on it at the end!

Oh and if you got some excel lying around might help ya out a little just to hit the algae even more with a little dosing. Why not hit it as many ways as possible right?

I’d also prolly water change 50% each day if my schedule and tank inhabitants would allow it


----------



## Fishstery (Jan 24, 2018)

puopg said:


> Oh and if you got some excel lying around might help ya out a little just to hit the algae even more with a little dosing. Why not hit it as many ways as possible right?
> 
> I’d also prolly water change 50% each day if my schedule and tank inhabitants would allow it


I dont have any excel but I do have APT fix which is an algae treatment but I don't believe it's chemical. I will try to do another WC tonight and spot dose the APT fix, it's good for hair algae. Dennis wong said it could also be used for cyano but I didn't see any changes in the cyano when I used the APT fix during the inital round of algae when I first set the tank up. The only inhabitant is a betta, which is why im lucky as she's super forgiving with any treatments I need to do!


----------



## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

Newbie283 said:


> I dont have any excel but I do have APT fix which is an algae treatment but I don't believe it's chemical. I will try to do another WC tonight and spot dose the APT fix, it's good for hair algae. Dennis wong said it could also be used for cyano but I didn't see any changes in the cyano when I used the APT fix during the inital round of algae when I first set the tank up. The only inhabitant is a betta, which is why im lucky as she's super forgiving with any treatments I need to do!


Its definitely a chemical haha, I read the ingredient is some sort of "epoxy aldehyde". I'm not sure if its at all similar to excels active ingredient called glutraldehyde though. I came across a forum post here where someone said it was more effective against BBA though, which to me gets me intrigued! Anyways, good luck! I believe all your hard work will pay off soon. 

Also, just a sidenote, in your photos your MC and downoi are very pale, is that just due to the light colors?


----------



## Fishstery (Jan 24, 2018)

puopg said:


> Its definitely a chemical haha, I read the ingredient is some sort of "epoxy aldehyde". I'm not sure if its at all similar to excels active ingredient called glutraldehyde though. I came across a forum post here where someone said it was more effective against BBA though, which to me gets me intrigued! Anyways, good luck! I believe all your hard work will pay off soon.
> 
> Also, just a sidenote, in your photos your MC and downoi are very pale, is that just due to the light colors?


Thank you so much for your help  I'll update again in a few days. It's just the color spectrum washing the greens out. I favor my red plants so I have the lighting set to an unnatural purple hue that really washes out the greens. I did notice though that under intense red and blue that even if i balance out the spectrum they are more pale than they used to be. An interesting observation on the effect on green plants. My Staurogyne repens doesnt seem to enjoy the spectrum as much either. Not natural looking but hey what dutch tanks look natural lol! When I rented the PAR meter from the LFS I took over 2 dozen readings with different color settings on my chihiros, so if I ever decide I want to switch the spectrum back over to be more balanced with the greens I'll already know what to set it to in relation to what PAR value I want.


----------



## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

How are things going? Any improvements?


----------



## Fishstery (Jan 24, 2018)

Not as much as I'd hoped. I did a massive trim of everything yesterday, and by trimming the monte carlo I cut off a lot of the green algae and spiro. However, the spiro is growing back quickly after the blackout. It seems 3 days is enough to hinder it but not kill it altogether. On the contrary the cyano has slowed down, it hasn't completely died back where it was previously but it also hasn't spread at all so I will consider that a good thing. Upon closer inspection of the stem plants during the trim it seems part of the issue was that the lower stems were getting shaded far too much as I let the tops get very full at the waters surface. All of the lower leaves are melted causing a lot of organic debris and breakdown in there which is probably what started to trigger more regular hair algae especially when I fed it even more by killing all the spiro the first time with algae fix. The way I see it now I have two options: either leave it how it is for now and try to reintroduce a few of the amanos that I moved to my other tank in an effort to help clean up the dead/dying algae and plant matter and clean up the healthy leaves. Or, the more invasive but permanent fix, do a major uprooting of all the stem streets again and cut off the old dying bottoms and replant the healthy tops. At this point I'm going with the latter, but would appreciate your opinion. The plants are a bit crowded now, although doing the uprooting will leave me with significantly less plant mass than I have now but will be much healthier plant mass despite being less in volume.


----------



## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

Sometimes you need short term loss for long term goal. I wanna say that keeping only the healthy part of plants is the way to go, as the unhealthy stuff is just going to die slowly. Its not like a melted stem "unmelts", but it can grow new growth that is healthy. So might as well stop the bleeding of organics and toss those dying plants. Your tank still seems to have a pretty good plant biomass.

They should grow back pretty quick. I usually trim off leaves in my tank that I see are decaying or just not doing very well in an effort to be proactive.


----------



## Fishstery (Jan 24, 2018)

puopg said:


> Sometimes you need short term loss for long term goal. I wanna say that keeping only the healthy part of plants is the way to go, as the unhealthy stuff is just going to die slowly. Its not like a melted stem "unmelts", but it can grow new growth that is healthy. So might as well stop the bleeding of organics and toss those dying plants. Your tank still seems to have a pretty good plant biomass.
> 
> They should grow back pretty quick. I usually trim off leaves in my tank that I see are decaying or just not doing very well in an effort to be proactive.


Unfortunately things have somehow taken a turn for the worse in this tank. Over the last 3 days for some reason a lot of my plants are melting and I'm not sure why. Hair algae is out of control despite the fact that I lowered the light intensity. Spiro as well. My monte carlo carpet is dying in patches. My betta also jumped out and died while i was at work  I'm going to reintroduce some amanos tonight to do a pre clean on some of the green algae. This weekend I'm going to uproot everything except the foreground plants and see what I can salvage. Give it a few weeks and see how it goes. If it doesn't get any better I'm going to scrap this scape and rescape it as a nature style with less stem plants. I'd like to put some UG in. I'll keep the co2 injection but I think a lower energy setup will work with my work schedule more and be easier to maintain. It's a shame because this scape really was beautiful at the 2 month mark. It's been on the decline when it really should be at peak.


----------



## LidijaPN (Jan 15, 2022)

Newbie283 said:


> Unfortunately things have somehow taken a turn for the worse in this tank. Over the last 3 days for some reason a lot of my plants are melting and I'm not sure why. Hair algae is out of control despite the fact that I lowered the light intensity. Spiro as well. My monte carlo carpet is dying in patches. My betta also jumped out and died while i was at work  I'm going to reintroduce some amanos tonight to do a pre clean on some of the green algae. This weekend I'm going to uproot everything except the foreground plants and see what I can salvage. Give it a few weeks and see how it goes. If it doesn't get any better I'm going to scrap this scape and rescape it as a nature style with less stem plants. I'd like to put some UG in. I'll keep the co2 injection but I think a lower energy setup will work with my work schedule more and be easier to maintain. It's a shame because this scape really was beautiful at the 2 month mark. It's been on the decline when it really should be at peak.


So sorry for your fish!! It's really heartbreaking when we're trying to make everything thrive and it all goes sideways...

I'd definitely cut off the unhealthy plant bottoms and replant the tops perhaps a little more sparsely? I have some things that have become absolute thickets now and at first I felt sad about pulling some stems out but it does seem much better now that everyone has room to breathe a little. I also try to pick out fallen leaves etc with the long tweezers at least twice a week or chop off a dying bigger leaf etc when I notice it starting to go. Ideally I want to have a jungle vibe but it's no good if everyone can't thrive and is fighting each other for access to light. 

Would it work to rinse the plants as you're pulling them out to remove the unhealthy bottoms? Then you could leave them in a bucket and do a big water change before you plant everyone back.... Also maybe cutting back on CO2 and light would make things more manageable? My setup is super low tech and at first that made me sad but the more I read the more I think maybe things moving slowly is actually preventing bad things from taking over too suddenly....


----------



## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

Newbie283 said:


> Unfortunately things have somehow taken a turn for the worse in this tank. Over the last 3 days for some reason a lot of my plants are melting and I'm not sure why. Hair algae is out of control despite the fact that I lowered the light intensity. Spiro as well. My monte carlo carpet is dying in patches. My betta also jumped out and died while i was at work  I'm going to reintroduce some amanos tonight to do a pre clean on some of the green algae. This weekend I'm going to uproot everything except the foreground plants and see what I can salvage. Give it a few weeks and see how it goes. If it doesn't get any better I'm going to scrap this scape and rescape it as a nature style with less stem plants. I'd like to put some UG in. I'll keep the co2 injection but I think a lower energy setup will work with my work schedule more and be easier to maintain. It's a shame because this scape really was beautiful at the 2 month mark. It's been on the decline when it really should be at peak.


Oh no, I'm sorry to hear! Really sorry about losing a fish, that always sucks.

I've been there before too, where the first 6 or so weeks everything seems to go fine, and then suddenly, algae and things just hit the fan. I feel like thats a pretty common progression of things, where initially everything is thriving and then suddenly problems start happening.

Onto the plants. Anything that is melting has definitely gotta go. Melting plant tissue will never recover so try to get it out as soon as you can. I wanna backup to the end of the blackout for a moment here though. So post blackout, do you remember what you did? How frequent were your water changes and how much. Was the filter cleaned out. How much PAR were you running after and if you were able to measure the pH drop, how would you gauge your CO2? 

My theory is that plants just weren't doing well and maybe there was just too many things changing constantly that the plants never had a chance to adjust to their conditions. I would definitely consider going lower light, not only due to fewer problems, but its easier to maintain, and when problems do appear, you have more time to figure out what is the root cause. And you can always ramp the light up as things stabilize. 

Again, really sorry to hear that things haven't been going your way, but don't give up! Sometimes a fresh start is all you need too.


----------



## Fishstery (Jan 24, 2018)

puopg said:


> Oh no, I'm sorry to hear! Really sorry about losing a fish, that always sucks.
> 
> I've been there before too, where the first 6 or so weeks everything seems to go fine, and then suddenly, algae and things just hit the fan. I feel like thats a pretty common progression of things, where initially everything is thriving and then suddenly problems start happening.
> 
> ...


Thank you! I'm going to order some scarlet badis to restock the tank. I kept them some years ago and really enjoyed them in a nano, and have been thinking about them ever since. I also am going to order some bloody mary shrimp. If I could have kept my amanos in this tank full time, short of the spiro this outbreak would have never happened. Even with 180 PAR the tank was algae free thanks to them. I only removed them because they were devouring my AR mini after they had exhausted the algae as a food supply. Even with supplemental feeding, they were chewing holes in it until it was almost beyond repair. 

As for post blackout, the same day I turned the lights back on I did a large 75% WC with RO. I replaced the filter floss which was only a week old. I was unable to do a WC the next day because I had a health problem which required me to rest. The next day I did a super quick 25% WC, just replaced water and vacced. The following day was actual WC day, I did a heavy plant trim and 75% WC with gravel vac. I no longer have the PAR meter but according to my records from previous measurements with the chihiros I tuned it down between 100-112. 

The plants were doing amazingly well pre blackout. However, the lower portions of the stems melting could have begun pre blackout and went without me noticing. It seems only post blackout I'm noticing some heavier melt on other plants. I figured it's also possible that the heavy red/blue spectrum of the way I had the chihiros set could have been triggering the algae to get worse? It could be coincidental but the algae only started to really ramp up after I made the switch from the twinstar to chihiros despite the twinstar being much higher in PAR. Tonight I put in 3 amanos and changed the spectrum back to be more balanced between red blue and green, and tried my best to lower the intensity by eye since there is no way to know what PAR I'm running now since I deviated from my measurement list I made when I had the PAR meter. I didn't think to take any readings for settings under 100 since I intended on running this high light rich co2 indefinitely. 

My plan of attack now, let the amanos do their job. In my experience these dudes will decimate hair algae and diatoms. That should help clean up the healthy plant portions so when I do the heavy trim and replant on Sunday the stems I put back in the tank will be mostly algae free. It may also reduce the amount I need to cut off and throw away since it's really hard to manually clean up algae on each individual leaf on my own. Sunday is WC day again, where I will uproot every single stem, chop off the melted parts, do a 90% WC with vacc and then replant with healthy tops. From there I will keep the lighting the same but turn the co2 down a bit since the co2 demand will be lower without such intense lighting. I will keep the amanos in until my bloody mary shrimp arrive. Having them will allow me to have an algae cleanup without worry of my AR being ruined. The only reason I didn't have any neocaridina or caridina in there before was because my betta was not small shrimp friendly. 

Hopefully the tank will grow back in nicely, the shrimp will help contain the algae, and I can keep this scape running. If not, I do always enjoy a rescape lol! But I would be lying if I said I wasn't a little bit disappointed to tear the dutch down. 

As for the spirogyra algae, I may just have to accept it's presence and cross my fingers that it doesn't get terrible. Seems that solutions to this algae are far and few between. The only true fix is a complete teardown and disinfection of the tank unfortunately. Like clado you can't even reuse plants which is terrible to have to throw all that away.


----------



## LidijaPN (Jan 15, 2022)

Newbie283 said:


> Thank you! I'm going to order some scarlet badis to restock the tank. I kept them some years ago and really enjoyed them in a nano, and have been thinking about them ever since. I also am going to order some bloody mary shrimp. If I could have kept my amanos in this tank full time, short of the spiro this outbreak would have never happened. Even with 180 PAR the tank was algae free thanks to them. I only removed them because they were devouring my AR mini after they had exhausted the algae as a food supply. Even with supplemental feeding, they were chewing holes in it until it was almost beyond repair.
> 
> As for post blackout, the same day I turned the lights back on I did a large 75% WC with RO. I replaced the filter floss which was only a week old. I was unable to do a WC the next day because I had a health problem which required me to rest. The next day I did a super quick 25% WC, just replaced water and vacced. The following day was actual WC day, I did a heavy plant trim and 75% WC with gravel vac. I no longer have the PAR meter but according to my records from previous measurements with the chihiros I tuned it down between 100-112.
> 
> ...


that sounds like a solid plan! Fingers crossed and update us on how it goes. 
wow never heard of bloody mary shrimp before, they sure are red!!


----------



## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

Newbie283 said:


> From there I will keep the lighting the same but turn the co2 down a bit since the co2 demand will be lower without such intense lighting. I will keep the amanos in until my bloody mary shrimp arrive. Having them will allow me to have an algae cleanup without worry of my AR being ruined. The only reason I didn't have any neocaridina or caridina in there before was because my betta was not small shrimp friendly.


While this is true, why not keep it as high as you can safely? I am a firm believer when Tom Barr says that CO2 is almost always the root cause for poor plant health, so I say if you can support it higher, might as well to eliminate that as a source for problems. Low light + CO2 to me sounds like success.

Another thing that really resonated with me a long time ago, focus on growing healthy plants and not trying to be a pro algae killer. I've found that focusing on what the plants need tends to address the algae problem pretty well.


----------



## Fishstery (Jan 24, 2018)

puopg said:


> While this is true, why not keep it as high as you can safely? I am a firm believer when Tom Barr says that CO2 is almost always the root cause for poor plant health, so I say if you can support it higher, might as well to eliminate that as a source for problems. Low light + CO2 to me sounds like success.
> 
> Another thing that really resonated with me a long time ago, focus on growing healthy plants and not trying to be a pro algae killer. I've found that focusing on what the plants need tends to address the algae problem pretty well.


With different fish stocking I will probably have to tune it back down a bit. I was able to crank it high because of the fact that bettas can deal with the co2 saturation better than most. I'm sad that I lost my betta, I always had health issues with the other ones I've kept despite trying various sources over the years. She was local bred and in excellent health. I'll miss her coming to the front of tank to greet me every day. She will be the last betta I own. 

I placed an order for 3 scarlet badis and can finally try my hand at keeping some fancy caridina shrimp, so I ordered 10 blue shadow pandas and 5 crystal reds. Which is another reason why I will probably need to adjust the co2 down. However with the lower intensity on the lighting and less plant mass in the meantime it would be wasting co2 to run it at 3 bps now. Don't worry however, I will still maintain richer co2 in the tank, since I have such high surface agitation I'm able to produce both high co2 and o2 saturation in the water at the same time. 

So, Sunday will be the major uprooting and the new fish and shrimp will arrive sometime next week. Hopefully things will bounce back well and the shrimp can clean nuisance algae for me. Fingers crossed the spiro contains itself and I can run this setup longer. From here on out I will not be replanting trimmings to make the plant mass as dense as it was. It will look rather sparse and sad for awhile, but in the long run will avoid the overcrowding issue. I'm honestly considering upgrading the tank to a 45u in the future since it's super hard to do a dutch in such a shallow tank.


----------



## Fishstery (Jan 24, 2018)

@puopg

Okay so super late night update. 4 hours later and I am _finally_ finished with the massive uprooting. I uprooted every single plant group with the exception of the monte carlo and Staurogyne repens. I tossed out so many handfuls of plant mass it hurt. However, I took my time and was extremely selective about which stems I put back in the tank and only the healthiest portions got put back in. I carefully uprooted each group one at a time, trimmed off any dead or bare stem, and placed the stems to be replanted in individual baggies with tank water. I hand cleaned every single leaf on every stem that was going back in the tank to ensure that 99% of what was going back in would be free of remaining cyano and hair algae and swished them in water to rinse. It sucked. Especially considering I had 3 species of rotala to do. However the payoff was worth it. I had enough to replant each group again and had the opportunity to move some streets around to be more pleasing to my eye and give all the plants more space and breathing room. I did a 90% WC, sucked up a ton of detrius and melted leaves, and cleaned the lily pipes. My amanos were NOT happy about everything getting kicked up and such a large WC, I'm almost certain I released a lot of ammonia with how much rooting I dug up so tomorrow I will do another 50% WC and replace the filter floss after it sucks up all the loose leftover debris over night.

At this point I would just call this the dutch restart lol, because the planting literally looks like day 1 besides the carpet haha! But a fresh start is exactly what this tank needed. I also got my hands on another chai TC since almost all of my original chai melted finally. Hoping it will take better now that my aquasoil is matured. I also got some bacopa colorata to replace my rotala green, which I have been wanting for awhile.

Anyways, I'm too tired to wait for the water to clear up for pictures, so here is the restart pictures after I filled the tank up. Wish me luck in staying algae free! The amanos will live here until my caridina shrimp and scarlet badis arrive sometime during the week to keep things clean and cycled.


----------



## LidijaPN (Jan 15, 2022)

That’s quite the herculean undertaking!!!! But fingers crossed it will take off now!


----------



## Fishstery (Jan 24, 2018)

LidijaPN said:


> That’s quite the herculean undertaking!!!! But fingers crossed it will take off now!


Thanks! It's definitely scrappy and sad looking compared to how lush it was. But it needed to be done. I consulted some aquascapers i follow on Instagram that have dutch tanks and they did confirm that periodically when things start to get dense the same thing happens where the lower stems get shaded and melt. At that point they do what I did and agree its an absolute pain but the payoff is worth it. The lesson learned here is to do it _before_ too much melt and algae triggers. Ill be much more aware of how crowded things get as they grow in and be more proactive pulling out stems as needed.

If things end up not working out I will rescape to a lower energy setup. But with how much money, time, and harder to find plants I have in here I might as well try hard to save it before throwing in the towel! This is definitely my most advanced scape so far and it's been a great learning experience having a tank that's difficult to maintain. Next time I attempt a dutch it will be in nothing smaller than a 20 gal.....5 gallons with this many stems is insanity


----------



## LidijaPN (Jan 15, 2022)

Newbie283 said:


> Thanks! It's definitely scrappy and sad looking compared to how lush it was. But it needed to be done. I consulted some aquascapers i follow on Instagram that have dutch tanks and they did confirm that periodically when things start to get dense the same thing happens where the lower stems get shaded and melt. At that point they do what I did and agree its an absolute pain but the payoff is worth it. The lesson learned here is to do it _before_ too much melt and algae triggers. Ill be much more aware of how crowded things get as they grow in and be more proactive pulling out stems as needed.
> 
> If things end up not working out I will rescape to a lower energy setup. But with how much money, time, and harder to find plants I have in here I might as well try hard to save it before throwing in the towel! This is definitely my most advanced scape so far and it's been a great learning experience having a tank that's difficult to maintain. Next time I attempt a dutch it will be in nothing smaller than a 20 gal.....5 gallons with this many stems is insanity


I never understand how people make it work with those crazy bushy layouts that look like a salad bar hahah. Like how are any of those plants functioning so close together? But one of the awesome things about this hobby is you can take it so many ways and get so many different results, if you're willing to invest time and $$$ 😅


----------



## RLee (Sep 21, 2008)

Newbie283 said:


> Thanks! It's definitely scrappy and sad looking compared to how lush it was. But it needed to be done. I consulted some aquascapers i follow on Instagram that have dutch tanks and they did confirm that periodically when things start to get dense the same thing happens where the lower stems get shaded and melt. At that point they do what I did and agree its an absolute pain but the payoff is worth it. The lesson learned here is to do it _before_ too much melt and algae triggers. Ill be much more aware of how crowded things get as they grow in and be more proactive pulling out stems as needed.
> 
> If things end up not working out I will rescape to a lower energy setup. But with how much money, time, and harder to find plants I have in here I might as well try hard to save it before throwing in the towel! This is definitely my most advanced scape so far and it's been a great learning experience having a tank that's difficult to maintain. Next time I attempt a dutch it will be in nothing smaller than a 20 gal.....5 gallons with this many stems is insanity


Did you ever get a ph pen/monitor?


----------



## Fishstery (Jan 24, 2018)

RLee said:


> Did you ever get a ph pen/monitor?


I hadn't gotten to that point yet. I had a lot of personal stuff happen over the last week, slid off the road in my jeep in a snowstorm as well, so I have a few things that need my attention financially first. I wish there was a way I could test below 6 for ph. I could just manually test my pH drop instead but I'm unsure of any reliable "low" pH test kits.

Any opinion on the Milwaukee ph54 pen? It's only $33


----------



## RLee (Sep 21, 2008)

Newbie283 said:


> I hadn't gotten to that point yet. I had a lot of personal stuff happen over the last week, slid off the road in my jeep in a snowstorm as well, so I have a few things that need my attention financially first. I wish there was a way I could test below 6 for ph. I could just manually test my pH drop instead but I'm unsure of any reliable "low" pH test kits.
> 
> Any opinion on the Milwaukee ph54 pen? It's only $33


Haven't used one I use a American Marine PinPoint PH Controller. I would suggest not getting a pen and get a monitor at the least, controller is the best option though. I know funds are tight so a ph monitor is still a solid option. I like the PinPoint but Milwaukee makes a good one to.

The reason I suggest this option is the ability to see the ph at any given time is invaluable. Pens need calibrating every time you use them, pain in the butt. The monitors/controllers need calibration very few months. With an accurate PH reading you might be surprised that you don't actually have the amount of co2 you think you have.

I used a drop checker for awhile and got ok results but when I switched I realized that the optimal ph drop wasn't coming in until way later in the photo period. With the accurate PH reading I was able to dial it in to that 1.2 -1.3 ph drop I was looking for right when the lights turned on and keep it there.

Once you dial in the co2 and are positive things are running well you can remove the ph probe and store it for future use or put it in another tank? I had a nano tank like yours for awhile and I did this because I wanted as much equipment out of the tank as possible. I would toss it back in every few months just to double check. Now I have a 80 gallon and a 55 gallon and both have the PinPoint PH Controller. With these it is even easier to dial in that perfect ph drop.

One last thing to remember is that if one has fluctuating KH levels from their source water using PH drop as an indicator is difficult. The fluctuating KH will cause the PH to change. Of course in your case you make your water, as do I, so this point it irrelevant.

My educated guess to the root of your problems was/is low co2 and low nitrates. You can successfully run lean but if one thing gets out of whack troubles happen more quickly. I have used both API Algea Fix and ChemiClean cyanobacteria killer, same idea as UltaLIfe. I don't use them but once in a while, usually only when I start a new tank and am dialing things in, and haven't had a death spiral like you experienced. They do alter water chemistry so they probably are also a factor with the above.


----------



## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

Awesome, hard work will 100% pay off! At least the plants are mature stems and not the thin tiny stems from TC plant cups haha. Best of luck to ya and I hope things start to flush out as you want!

I wanted to also comment on the above member and the pH probe. 110% I would invest the $90 for the Pinpoint pH probe. It is one of the most valuable tools to help you get insight into your CO2. I absolutely agree with @RLee that CO2 is likely the root cause of all your issues, and the fastest and most accurate way to "gauge" your CO2 levels is with the pH monitor. I started seeing a small area of my MC melting and when I checked the pH I noticed that something changed such that I wasn't dropping the same as before, but I also was changing so many things with the skimmer and whatnot, so the pen helped catch that and i just slowly bumped the CO2.

It is absolutely worth the money, and its pretty cheap considering the other $$$ in this tank. If you're on the fence, or even on the other side of it, I would go in and buy one.

If you do, just make sure you follow the instructions when calibrating the probe initially to rinse in between the reference calibration fluids. I mention this since recently I learned that even a single drop of the 10.0 reference calibration fluid into RO water in a small cup made the pH go from 7.0 => 9.6! Anyways, enough of that, pH probe!


----------



## Fishstery (Jan 24, 2018)

puopg said:


> Awesome, hard work will 100% pay off! At least the plants are mature stems and not the thin tiny stems from TC plant cups haha. Best of luck to ya and I hope things start to flush out as you want!
> 
> I wanted to also comment on the above member and the pH probe. 110% I would invest the $90 for the Pinpoint pH probe. It is one of the most valuable tools to help you get insight into your CO2. I absolutely agree with @RLee that CO2 is likely the root cause of all your issues, and the fastest and most accurate way to "gauge" your CO2 levels is with the pH monitor. I started seeing a small area of my MC melting and when I checked the pH I noticed that something changed such that I wasn't dropping the same as before, but I also was changing so many things with the skimmer and whatnot, so the pen helped catch that and i just slowly bumped the CO2.
> 
> ...


How do you store yours? I don't know a lot about using them, but I noticed during my quick research today that people were commenting about proper storage of the pen. Not sure if it's applies to a probe as well? Do you have to store it in a particular solution? 

This will be my next investment, after I inspect the damage on my jeep. Lucky for me I work in the autobody industry as does my boyfriend, so we save a ton on car maintenance and repair!


----------



## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

Newbie283 said:


> How do you store yours? I don't know a lot about using them, but I noticed during my quick research today that people were commenting about proper storage of the pen. Not sure if it's applies to a probe as well? Do you have to store it in a particular solution?
> 
> This will be my next investment, after I inspect the damage on my jeep. Lucky for me I work in the autobody industry as does my boyfriend, so we save a ton on car maintenance and repair!


The pinpoint will come with a endcap that contains some storage solution. Save that for later on when you want to store it. I wrap the top with plastic wrap to prevent evaporation. The pen and the probe you refer to are the same item. There is some solution to best store it in that they sell, or the 4.0 pH calibration fluid will work as well. If you buy the monitor (the device + the probe), it comes with a 7.0 and 10.0 calibration fluid. Maybe it also comes with a 4.0, im not sure, but I also got the calibration fluid pack which comes with a ton. Super cheap to have on hand if you want to recalibrate or verify things are working.

Storing is as simple as inserting the probe tip into the cap, by unscrewing the top, sliding it onto the probe, then screwing it back down. Just don't let the probe tip get dry. 

So I guess, this is not something you want to just throw into a box when your done with it, youll need to treat it with a little more respect. But this bad boy is doing all the heavy lifting for a lot of ppl and I find my results are wayyyy better with it in my life.


----------



## Fishstery (Jan 24, 2018)

Update: i ordered the pinpoint pH probe, it should arrive sometime before Saturday. I won't get to put it to good use quite yet, as per the advice of others on another thread i have about TDS and remineralizing i will be leaving the co2 and lights off until Saturday, when I have time to monitor the badis (which came today) and the taiwan bees. After that point i will be ever so slightly adjusting co2 and ferts up over the course of a few weeks until im back to where i am now. I just did a 90% WC to get my TDS right for the shrimp that arrive on Thursday, i got the TDS down to 110 with a gh of 5. 

So far, no massive algae problems. 90% of the tank is algae free, except for some some preexisting green hair algae on the carpet (one of the areas I did not uproot and replant) and of course this PITA spirogyra. The spiro has come back quickly, and while it doesn't only grow in one area of the tank it most definitely is partial to the front panel of the tank where the foreground plants are. It definitely enjoys higher light. I see a stray strand here and there on the stems, but nothing like on the monte carlo and s repens. At this point I give up with it. I will trim it off when I can and hope it dosent majorly take over. If it does, a full scrap and rescape will be in the future. Let's hope it doesn't get that far. 

You can see in the pictures, that removing that much plant mass made the tank look immature again, however I was able to define the plant streets much better like it was when I freshly set it up. From here on out, I will be much more attentive to overcrowding and will do a routine uproot and replant as needed.


----------



## LidijaPN (Jan 15, 2022)

Looking good!! Is the pink overall light from the plant lights? Is there any chance to see the plant colors in a regular light? I'm super interested in those magentas there!!


----------



## Fishstery (Jan 24, 2018)

LidijaPN said:


> Looking good!! Is the pink overall light from the plant lights? Is there any chance to see the plant colors in a regular light? I'm super interested in those magentas there!!


All of the magentas are natural, but are accentuated by the lighting which is a RGB which I can manually adjust individual color diodes. I run mine slightly higher on the red/blue side than green. However, I recently just balanced the spectrum back out on the green side, so the color rendering is definitely more natural looking than it was previously. Running a more red/blue spectrum creates a super purple color rendering which really makes the reds pop but washes out the green.

Saying a "regular light" is kind of vague, lol so what kind are you talking about? Brand and model? I can help you determine if your light will grow colors this deep if I know what it is 

A direct way of answering however is that most red plants will not display super vivid coloring unless certain conditions are met. It varies by plant species so you need to know what you got and how to please it. Most effectively high light _with_ a very wide and well rounded color spectrum is the biggest key. However running co2 injection and proper fertilizing is also beneficial for best coloring. Some plants like my rotala h'ra will only turn deep magenta/red with strict nitrate limitation in the water column. I have been testing it in this tank but still couldn't produce the super bright magenta out of the h'ra like I have seen in others tanks, even with nitrate consistently between 0-5. The most I've gotten out of it is dusty pink at the tips and hot pink on the undersides of the leaves. 

On to the actual plants, some of the extremely vivd ones that are considered easy are the ludwigia super red, Alternanthera species (i have rosanervig and mini in here), and rotala blood red. These can be grown in low tech. However with lower lighting they take on a more rusty red/brown instead of the extremely vivid magenta/pink/purple. Red plants get redder the closer they get to the surface, which coincides with the comment about them presenting their best color under higher light. The very light pink plant in the front right is hygrophila sp "chai" which is naturally this color but is super difficult and demanding. It requires about 150 PAR (very high light) at the substrate to grow well and is very picky about placement in the tank.


----------



## LidijaPN (Jan 15, 2022)

Woah that’s quite the science!! ♥ I actually meant I wonder what your magenta and pink plants look like under daylight/ sunlight, as opposed to the tinted growing lights.

I actually ordered some ludwigia super red in tissue culture and am waiting for the tiny plantlets to grow... a few have been eaten by Chug our fat and badly behaved pond snail, she doesn’t normally eat plants but these were tiny and tender I guess. I tossed her a piece of cucumber and hopefully she will leave the baby ludwigias alone now. 

It’s green as a baby though, can’t wait to see at which point it turns ♥


----------



## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

Heres to hoping things improve!


----------



## Fishstery (Jan 24, 2018)

So an unfortunate update. I got some taiwan bees in and everything was looking good, until my power went out for 4 days straight. After 2 days I managed to get at the very least my filter and heater plugged into a generator we bought mid blackout, but through the duration my downoi and AR mini melted a ton and hair algae exploded even without any lighting. I was unable to do any water changes because we have a grinder pump and couldn't run any water until the power came back on. It's a shame. It's also going to be tough to do any major water changes with the shrimp still acclimating. I have the lights back on now and the co2 very low while the shrimp settle in, however at this point I'm considering a rescape, and tossing everything because of the spiro algae. I have some pretty good and hard to get plants in there and a really nice monte carlo mat so I'll definitely be sad and it will suck not being able to reuse any plants, but I'm trying to stay positive about it.

I think I'm going to do another naturescape with lots of green plants and maybe just a few red accent plants. I bought myself some stuff for the rescape for my birthday, an absolutely beautiful driftwood stump and an oase 100 canister, with the built in heater which I'm pretty excited about. It's always good when you can reduce the amount of hardware in a nano tank. I've also been loving my scarlet badis! I forgot how much fun they are to watch. I'll just clean up the tank enough to get by for the next few weeks while I work up the plan for my new scape and get a plant list going. Not sure if I should cap my old aquasoil with a thin layer of fresh or not. I don't like uncycled aquasoil with shrimp but I'm concerned that the spiro algae has made its way into the soil.


----------



## LidijaPN (Jan 15, 2022)

Oh man, sorry for your power loss!!! That majorly sucks. 4 days with no power is tough even if you don't consider the aquarium. 

I think you have a great outlook on it though - it's a chance to start anew and make things even more awesome! Show us what you make, I'll be excited to see. 
Pump with heater in sounds amazing, I'd love to get that somewhere down the line. 

Scarlet badis are adorable but won't they terrorize the shrimp?


----------



## ak7v (Jan 9, 2022)

Oh, that's too bad. I had a similar problem after setting up my new tank -- just 36 hours of a power outage, but also no heat in the house except the fire place so the tank got cold, filters died, etc. I lost a handful of fish due to that and also suffered an algae breakout.

Afterwards, I picked up a gas generator. It can run the aquarium and our furnace and some lights, just in case it happens again. Another option is one of those "solar generators" that charge up when you have power (or by solar) and can be used to run light loads when your power is out. I think it would do your filter and maybe some intermittent or lower powered lights for a while.


----------



## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

Newbie283 said:


> So an unfortunate update. I got some taiwan bees in and everything was looking good, until my power went out for 4 days straight. After 2 days I managed to get at the very least my filter and heater plugged into a generator we bought mid blackout, but through the duration my downoi and AR mini melted a ton and hair algae exploded even without any lighting. I was unable to do any water changes because we have a grinder pump and couldn't run any water until the power came back on. It's a shame. It's also going to be tough to do any major water changes with the shrimp still acclimating. I have the lights back on now and the co2 very low while the shrimp settle in, however at this point I'm considering a rescape, and tossing everything because of the spiro algae. I have some pretty good and hard to get plants in there and a really nice monte carlo mat so I'll definitely be sad and it will suck not being able to reuse any plants, but I'm trying to stay positive about it.
> 
> I think I'm going to do another naturescape with lots of green plants and maybe just a few red accent plants. I bought myself some stuff for the rescape for my birthday, an absolutely beautiful driftwood stump and an oase 100 canister, with the built in heater which I'm pretty excited about. It's always good when you can reduce the amount of hardware in a nano tank. I've also been loving my scarlet badis! I forgot how much fun they are to watch. I'll just clean up the tank enough to get by for the next few weeks while I work up the plan for my new scape and get a plant list going. Not sure if I should cap my old aquasoil with a thin layer of fresh or not. I don't like uncycled aquasoil with shrimp but I'm concerned that the spiro algae has made its way into the soil.


Dang, what a nightmare. 4 days no power!? That's crazy. I think at this point, saving this tank is more about bragging rights and overcoming that challenge. 

Honestly, 2 days without light, truly healthy plants should be able to handle that without issue. They way I see it, we ship plants across the country, and they tend to make it to the destination without issue. I think weak plants however, these are the ones that don't make it. 

In an attempt to minimize cross contamination, I would just start brand new. Use the filter media to jump start the cycling, but with a small tank like that, just use new aquasoil. It'll give you peace of mind. Then if it comes back in the next go around, you know its not from the previous, and then I would re-evaluate the things you think "can't be the problem". Algae although I hate it too, I think is indicative of something not being in balance. Use it almost as a tool/visual signal to notify you of that. 

For example, these days and pretty much for the longest time the main/only algae I battle is BBA. Although minimal in quantity, I definitely see it grow. In my life, I have only successfully defeated it once, but it took months of good maintenance, spot treatment, plant biomass to get to a point where I stopped seeing it grow (though if I recall, i think it always enjoys the filter outflow and was there haha). Maybe i didnt 100% defeat it then lol, but in my books, not on plants/hardscape and needing to trim it off is good enough for me. My point is that, the BBA showed me that "Hey something needs to be adjusted", whether that is in my enrichment (CO2 + ferts) or in just my habits (water changes, how I perform them, planting techniques, plant maintenence, etc).


----------



## Fishstery (Jan 24, 2018)

LidijaPN said:


> Oh man, sorry for your power loss!!! That majorly sucks. 4 days with no power is tough even if you don't consider the aquarium.
> 
> I think you have a great outlook on it though - it's a chance to start anew and make things even more awesome! Show us what you make, I'll be excited to see.
> Pump with heater in sounds amazing, I'd love to get that somewhere down the line.
> ...


Nope! Keep them well fed and they are fine. As juvies their mouths are way too small to harm even juvinelle shrimp. Mine already figured out the shrimp aren't food and ignore them.



ak7v said:


> Oh, that's too bad. I had a similar problem after setting up my new tank -- just 36 hours of a power outage, but also no heat in the house except the fire place so the tank got cold, filters died, etc. I lost a handful of fish due to that and also suffered an algae breakout.
> 
> Afterwards, I picked up a gas generator. It can run the aquarium and our furnace and some lights, just in case it happens again. Another option is one of those "solar generators" that charge up when you have power (or by solar) and can be used to run light loads when your power is out. I think it would do your filter and maybe some intermittent or lower powered lights for a while.


Yeah we got a gas generator 2 days into the outage lol!



puopg said:


> Dang, what a nightmare. 4 days no power!? That's crazy. I think at this point, saving this tank is more about bragging rights and overcoming that challenge.
> 
> Honestly, 2 days without light, truly healthy plants should be able to handle that without issue. They way I see it, we ship plants across the country, and they tend to make it to the destination without issue. I think weak plants however, these are the ones that don't make it.
> 
> ...


I know the spiro came from plants I bought off a "reputable" hobbyist on reddit. I'd never encountered spiro before. When I noticed it in my tank I saw another listing they had on reddit, and surprise surprise the photo showed the tank infested with spiro. And that's how I solved that mystery lol!



puopg said:


> Dang, what a nightmare. 4 days no power!? That's crazy. I think at this point, saving this tank is more about bragging rights and overcoming that challenge.
> 
> Honestly, 2 days without light, truly healthy plants should be able to handle that without issue. They way I see it, we ship plants across the country, and they tend to make it to the destination without issue. I think weak plants however, these are the ones that don't make it.
> 
> ...


I know the spiro came from plants I bought off a "reputable" hobbyist on reddit. I'd never encountered spiro before. When I noticed it in my tank I saw another listing they had on reddit, and surprise surprise the photo showed the tank infested with spiro. And that's how I solved that mystery lol! As much as I like getting hard to find plants that are already transitioned to submerged form, this time around it will be strictly TC only. It should be a much more manageable scape as well. 

Any idea on if my filter may be contaminated with spores? There's really no way for me to toss the media, I'll have no choice but to reuse it. However it would be such a kick in the you-know-what to do a teardown and rescape to have this evil somehow show up again


----------



## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

Newbie283 said:


> I know the spiro came from plants I bought off a "reputable" hobbyist on reddit. I'd never encountered spiro before. When I noticed it in my tank I saw another listing they had on reddit, and surprise surprise the photo showed the tank infested with spiro. And that's how I solved that mystery lol! As much as I like getting hard to find plants that are already transitioned to submerged form, this time around it will be strictly TC only. It should be a much more manageable scape as well.
> 
> Any idea on if my filter may be contaminated with spores? There's really no way for me to toss the media, I'll have no choice but to reuse it. However it would be such a kick in the you-know-what to do a teardown and rescape to have this evil somehow show up again


Hmm well I guess it could? Personally, I always run under the assumption that algae exists in some form in the tank. You'll spend $$$ and anxiety trying to keep your tank "algae free", worrying about the water the fish and plants arrive in, is it in the fish poop somehow, old filter media in a tank that had algae, algae in pipe and tubing. You see what I mean? I think what Im getting at here is, yea maybe it could, but if your tank is doing well, it's not gonna take over.

However, I do agree with MITIGATION. I try not to take an algae infested plant or plant from a tank thats infested with algae and drop it into my system. Cleaning the plant, prepping it, dipping in h202 or bleach solution helps in this mitigation strategy. For media, just give it a good couple rinses, get the stuff out of it, and I feel like you'll be good to go. Media is already in darkness all the time so its unlikely algae would be growing in it.


----------



## Fishstery (Jan 24, 2018)

One last update on this thread. The scape is being left for dead. The plants did not rebound well from the uprooting and replanting and I lowered the co2 considerably with the presence of the taiwan bees. At this point I'm just doing water changes and manual removal of the loads of brown hair algae that has triggered. I deliberately leave some in so I don't have to feed my shrimp right now. 

I decided a tear down was a great time (and excuse with my boyfriend) to do a tank upgrade. Unless it's a pond style scape, it's just too hard to do much with the 5 gallon shallow. It's a super cool footprint and I will I know my multiple tank syndrome will force me to set the tank up again in the future. I bought a UNS 45u this time, literally the same exact footprint as the 45s but it's 4 inches taller and 4 more gallons. The height will allow me to play around some more with a new scape and the extra gallons will just help with maintenance. I can reuse the stand and tank lid which is nice. 

I also got the upgraded canister filter, this is my first oase filter but they seem to be really popular with the advanced scapers nowadays and the built in heater is a nice feature. I'm upgrading my lily pipes back to glass which I'm not too excited about, the neoflows were really easy to clean but just not as sharp and clean looking as glass. The outflow has a built in co2 diffuser so I can also eliminate the in tank diffuser, so my new scape will be completely hardware free. 

I've decided to try my hand at a diorama style scape with a forest layout. I've been fixated on these styles of aquascapes for a while, but they require a lot of DIY to build the hardscape and wood which I was able to get some experience under my belt with when I built my newt paludarium. So I will be building the hardscape over the next few weeks and then when I'm able to take a day off work (which won't be for quite a while) I can plant the tank and transfer everything over. The forest style scapes are mostly low maintenance plants and moss so trimming will be a breeze compared to what endured with the dutch style. So keep an eye out for a new build journal  

Last but not least, I invested in an RO system finally. I decided since I would probably only make this purchase a small handful of times in my life I would go with quality and picked up a 5 stage spectrapure which will hopefully be set up next week or the week after, so that will be another new experience for me! Very exciting things are coming from the unfortunate demise of the dutch scape.


----------



## LidijaPN (Jan 15, 2022)

I can’t wait to see your sunken forest! Sucks that the dutch didn’t make it but you’re making the best of it ⭐


----------



## Fishstery (Jan 24, 2018)

LidijaPN said:


> I can’t wait to see your sunken forest! Sucks that the dutch didn’t make it but you’re making the best of it ⭐


Looking back at the pictures from my journal at the 2 month mark makes my heart hurt lol. Seriously that thing peaked and crashed so fast but at least I have a ton of stunning pictures of it. It was definitely a fun learning experience but I think my main takeaway is there's definitely a catch with the beauty that comes with a dutch tank, and with my work schedule it's just not a good setup for me to have. But when I'm an old lady and retire......I'm going all out lol!!


----------



## LidijaPN (Jan 15, 2022)

It will be glorious!!

Yeah they are daunting, I’m definitely aiming more for that overgrown random low key ‘will never impress anyone but hopefully the shrimp and rasbora are really happy in there’ style tank. 

But I live vicariously through you people creating perfect little submersed worlds.


----------

