# Another deficiency/toxicity story



## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Recently (literally within 1-2 days) I started to have these spots on new leaves of Hemianthus Micranthemoides. New leaves seem also twisted and deformed, this has been happening for few days prior to the spots. _(see images #1 - 5) - This I figured out was my fault with H2O2 treatment, which apparently this plant doesn't like.

_Tank is 20l (5gal) nano. Been running for a year now, with a major redo 6 weeks ago. Redo meaning changed substrate and added new plants.
Everything is growing fine, only Rotala and HM seem struggling.

Plants are also pearling like crazy despite having obvious issued I described.

*Plant list:*
Hemmiantus Micranthemoides _(started growing fine, very dense, but now started having some issues)_
Rotala Colorata_ (I guess it had some Fe toxicity issues before, now it doesn't look 100%, but it's recovering and growing, but slowly I have to say)_
Pogostemon Erectus_ (growing very bushy, with many sideshoots)_
[STRIKE]Myriophyllum Tuberculatum_ (also growing fine, had to trim it once after 2 weeks; noticed this plants growing faster with increased iron dosing)_[/STRIKE]
Staurogyne Repens _(spreading like crazy, 5 weeks growth from only 3 very small cuts; trimmed once, but only older GSA affected leaves)_
[STRIKE]Eleocharis Acicularis_ (was struggling at first, but now it's started to spread and looks healthy)_[/STRIKE]
Flame Moss _(growing, trimmed twice already)_
[STRIKE]Pogostemon Helferi _(just recently planted, emersed grown plants adjusting to my water)_[/STRIKE]
Alternanthera Reineckii mini
Rotala Wallichii
Rotala Indica (Ammania Bonsai)
[STRIKE]Bacopa Caroliniana_ (growing extremely fast, had to trim it 3 times already as it has reached the top of the tank, only added this plant to help suck up the nitrates)_
[/STRIKE]
*Substrate:*
5cm of porous fired clay based substrate (1-2mm fragments) with osmocote added on the bottom.

*Filtration:*
Eheim Aquacorner with sponge as mechanical and SubstratPro as biofilter. (1 year old established filter)
+ added small cheap filter just for additional flow

*Light:*
DIY LED cca 1000 lumen / 6500 kelvin. 5cm from the top, 25cm from the bottom of the tank. Lights currently running on 66% as I stated to see some GSA on the glass and on S. Repens older leaves.
Total light period is 8 hours with 1.5h rump up and down.
*
Ferts:*
EI daily method with values based on this calculator:
Aquarium Nutrient Calculator
I'm using EasyLife liquid ferts calculated for 15l of net water volume:
1.8 ml Fosfo = 0.6ppm
1.2 ml Potassium = 3.2ppm (+0.25ppm from Fosfo) = total 3.45ppm
[STRIKE]0.1ml Profito + 0.05ml Ferro = 0.05ppm of Fe (basically 3 drops of 2:1 mix of Profito and Ferro)[/STRIKE]
0.05ml Ferro = 0.03ppm Fe
[STRIKE]I'm not adding any NO3 now as there's 20ppm coming from the tap already and another large portion from the osmocote I added.[/STRIKE]
Also I'm not listing any week totals, as I'm doing more frequent water changes and dosing daily.

*Note:*
I was not dosing any micros for the past 4 weeks, only started dosing these 3 drops 7 days ago. Immediately noticed increased growth of Myriophyllum Tuberculatum, but this may not be related.

*Water chemistry:*
KH = 9 - 10
GH = 20 - 23
PH morning 7.1 - 7.4
PH evening 6.2 - 6.5

NH4/NH3 = 0ppm
NO2 = 0ppm
[STRIKE]NO3 = 80ppm[/STRIKE]
NO3 = 20-30ppm

*CO2:*
1bps
Bazooka ceramic atomizer 
On 2 hours before lights
Off 1 hour before lights
I don't have a dropchecker, but my tank literally looks like a soda...
Based on the KH/PH/CO2 table, I should be having crazy amounts of CO2 between 80-100ppm... I have some doubts about that as I have never seen my fish gasping for air.

*Water changes:*
2 times a week 50 - 60% (always after lights off, so I can start next day fresh, with new ferts added)

*Fauna:*
5x Danio Margaritatus
3x Ottocinclus Affinis
3x Caridina Japonica
All are doing fine, even had small Otos, unfortunately disappeared after few days, probably eaten by CPD's...

*Additional data:*
Occasional Excel dosing 8 - 16 drops (0.4 - 0.8ml)
Did H2O2 spot treatment for the GSA, mostly on the glass and driftwood (1 - 2 ml near the Hemmiantus) and 1 - 2 ml directly on the S. Repens (which seem totally unaffected)
Trimmed 2 stems of the Rotala 7 days ago, for some reason 2 stems grew really fast.
I will be removing the Bacopa. I think it's sucking up too much nutrients and mostly CO2. The way the water flows within the tank, it's in the way right before the Hemmiantus, although I can see plenty of bubbles around it.

Also I have to mention, except for the GSA on S. Repens, I don't see any algae in the tank.
But this may be due to help of Otos and Amano shrimp I guess.


13.02.2016
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Today I gave the Hemianthus Micranthemoides a good trim _(see image #6)_, removed the Bacopa, clean filters and did a 60% water change.
I was really surprised how bad it actually is... Basically the whole plant looks bad. Twisted, with spots, kind of dark colored and simply not healthy at all.
Not sure if this is light related, but the plant is not that dense (it has been in the tank for only 5 weeks now). 
It has some small amount of new growth that doesn't look totally bad, so I guess there's hope.
I will continue with P and K daily dosing and stop all traces again. Will see what happens.
I'm expecting some improvements, at least from more nutrients and co2 now available when the Bacopa is out of the way.

15.02.2016
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This morning I noticed all Rotala leaves except one stem (the very left one) pointing down, looking kind of saggy before the lights on. Never seen this before, the tips were always closed and pointing up in the morning. They all came up eventually after 2 hours of light, but still have some kind of curve.
Also I have noticed kind of short nodes between each pair of leaves. Definitely shorther than 6 weeks ago. I think I read in some of the recent toxicity threads, that this could be one of the symptoms. Not sure if this is the case, or could be light related, but thought it's worth mentioning.
Anyway, despite the obvious damage, it's still pearling like crazy _(see image #7)_ (even the super damaged and trimmed HM has some bubbles on top)
One more point, you can see the stem on the right of image #7 trimmed a week ago, it has not grown much at all, just two small stunted clumps of leaves. The top portion of this trim is the one on the very left. The top portion is also looking slightly worse then 2 days ago_ (image #8 viewed from the top)_.
Will do another water change today and continue dosing P and K only.

29.02.2016
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Two weeks update.
Dosing kept the same, daily 0.6ppm of P / 3.45ppm of K. No micros or Fe at all with 2 water changes a week.
Removed Eleocharis Accicularis and replaced with Staurogyne Repens trimmings. Added some Pogostemon Helferi I got, we'll see how that goes...
As you can see from the pictures 09, 10 and 13, Rotala Colorata has grown a bit, but again just two stems grew fast and have nice color, the rest is small and green. There's one taller stem on the left in pic. 9, but that one still looks kind of defored. Also some biger leaves have broken tips for some reason (maybe too much flow?). Despite all this, the Rotala never looked better in this tank before.
Hemminatus Micranthemoides is recovering slowly. First week it didn't do much, then it started growing tiny new leaves. I'm pretty sure now that the sudden die off was my fault with the H2O2 treatment. But still there was definitely something wrong prior to that. Top portion looks nice and green with new leaves, bottom portion sufferes a little from what I believe is diatoms which Otos's can't reach (pic. 11)
Since I removed the Bacopa, I can also see some diatoms and tiny little hairs on Pogostemon Erectus outer needles, not sure if related. Maybe should have reduced the dosing a bit.
I'm also seeing GSA on lower parts of the glass. Maybe still too much light or not enough PO4?
Thinking of removing the Myriophyllum Tuberculatum, it doesn't look so good since the Fe detox. Lost color a bit and not growing much. I think I'll replace it with the Pogostemon Erectus trimmings, I really like that plant.


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## touch of sky (Nov 1, 2011)

I am wondering if it was a result of the H202. Also, since you have made changes to the tank, I usually wait two weeks before making more changes. If you make a lot of changes all at once, it is hard to know what is responsible for what.


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

I had similar problems with the Rotala before, that's why I made the whole remake. That was 6 weeks ago. I had to take it out completely and replant few healthy stems. Back then I was dosing a lot of Iron (0.5ppm daily) with horrible results, so i stopped all traces for 5 weeks and only started adding 0.05ppm daily last week. I'm still not fully convinced is just Fe toxicity and there might be something elese going on.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Hemianthus callitrichoides (aka HC/dwarf baby tears) is extremely sensitive to a direct hit from H2O2 in my experience. Possible there could be a susceptibility throughout the genus. Does the timeline fit?


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Hm could this really be from H2O2? What shocked me today was the ugly bottom of the whole plant I discovered after big trim. And the fact that these spots appeared literally overnight. The H2O2 treatment was on Wednesday.
Still there's some twisting of leaves that's been happening for the past few days and there was no H2O2 involved.


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

So yesterday evening I upped my CO2 just a tiny bit and seems like I almost gassed my fish today. They were very lethargic kind of just floating around, so I quickly scooped them and threw them in a bucket with fresh water ready for today's waterchange. They're swimming normally in the bucket right now. So I guess low CO2 is out of the question here.
I have never seen something like this before and I have never had any problems with my fish until today's accident.

Did some water test and my tank water PH was down to 5.4, so definitely there was a lot of CO2. PH of the fresh water ready for water change was 7.4


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## keymastr (May 25, 2015)

I always go by a 1.0 to 1.3 PH drop regardless of the KH as the charts are unreliable. Seems like you had it dialed in about right before. 

I believe your NO3 test is suspect and would suggest finding a source of KNO3 that you can make a reference sample from to calibrate your NO3 test kit. As an example, mine said I had 80 PPM when I actually had 20 PPM. You may have much less than you think and with the plants you have and the amount of co2 available that would be my first area to check since they will consume a good amount. 

You can also check with your water company and see if they have a water report online or call and ask them how much NO3 is in the water from the tap. You can also use a test strip rather than the drop kits to get a rough idea of your water conditions.


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Water report from my water company says NO3 8-12ppm, my measurements are 10-20ppm from tap. Before the Osmocote added it was about the same in this tank. After the rescape I had a big swing up to 160ppm and currently lowering it down with frequent water changes. I did a calibration test with distilled water and EasyLife Nitro. I can say the test is reasonably accurate. Definitelly not 400% off like yours. And I'm not seing any nitrate deficiencies.
In my other low light/low tech tank with plain inert gravel the NO3 stays about the same at all times using the same water.

As for the PH drop, I was always aiming for 1 degree drop and it was pretty stable until today.

I did some more water tests and for some reason my KH dropped significantly to about 1-2 dKH. I suspect the driftwood, but I always thought about PH, not KH being altered by it. And to be safe, I did frequent water changes hoping it would flush away most of the tannis. With such low KH, it's no wonder the PH dropped so low and it can also contribute to Fe toxicity as it appears soft water is more prone to this.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

in b4 someone says micro toxicity

This seems to be somewhat similar to issues I have seen in the past... I will be interested to see what you find out


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## keymastr (May 25, 2015)

Yeah, I will also be interested in what you find. I have seen my plants react to micros that way before as well. I currently have stopped dosing them although my issues were not as pronounced as yours. The yellowing was what threw me. The other signs look like possible micro tox but the yellowing is not how mine has ever looked.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

It's a micronutrient toxicity.


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> It's a micronutrient toxicity.


It's possible. I can definitely see some positive results after two weeks of Micro/Fe detox, but I'm not out of the woods yet..


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

Burito, those sure are sign of trace toxicity in those pictures, if you could get rid of those osmocote from your substrate then that would help. you should be safe with quite higher amount of Fe 0.15ppm daily, long as that higher amount is not coming from DTPA or better chelator.


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## GeekTee (Feb 28, 2016)

I just want to say how amazing your tank looks!


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## Fissure (Jun 29, 2014)

You guys saying this is a trace toxicity what are you basing this on? What are the difference from deficiencies you can tell from the images? Not calling you out on it but am interested since you are stating it as fact?
He is also doing 50-60% WC 2-3 times a week for some reason, how could he build up toxic levels of traces then?


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Fissure said:


> You guys saying this is a trace toxicity what are you basing this on? What are the difference from deficiencies you can tell from the images? Not calling you out on it but am interested since you are stating it as fact?
> He is also doing 50-60% WC 2-3 times a week for some reason, how could he build up toxic levels of traces then?


I was doing 2-3 large water changes a week due to very high nitrates comming from the osmocote. So it's most likely leaching out something more then just macros. Nitrates are down to about 30ppm now, but there's no way I can measure micros. I do have a Fe test, but it's just not reliable.


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## Fissure (Jun 29, 2014)

Ah I see, I too are using an EI daily routine and seeing the same issues with some of my plants. Only affecting old leaves and specially the older leaves of red plants always thought it was an FE or K deficiency. But lately a lot of discussion about toxicity has spurred and got me interested if it actually might be the other way around. Though I am not convinced either way yet but the discussion is interesting and tends to get very heated which I find interesting as well


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

Fissure said:


> You guys saying this is a trace toxicity what are you basing this on? What are the difference from deficiencies you can tell from the images? Not calling you out on it but am interested since you are stating it as fact?
> He is also doing 50-60% WC 2-3 times a week for some reason, how could he build up toxic levels of traces then?


the toxicity symptoms can be seen in all of his pictures, main one being darkening of the leaves which will appear as patches, melting of the leaves in random spots, yellowing of the leaves even after dosing Fe and NO3. in severe case lower part of the stems would melt away.


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

happi, if you mean the Rotala, it's Colorata (not Rotundifolia) and it's more orange/pink hue. It turns from green to this color at certain height. Those two stems in pictres 9 and 10 grow really fast right now with big healthy leaves that develeop these lines on tips as seen on pic 9. The third one right next to them is a bit slower and still looks deformed. But that Hemmianthus could be a bit greener that's true, especially the new growth. My main concern was the darkening and melting of older leaves and black/pink patches and holes with twisted new growth, still presnet on some stems of the Rotala.


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## Fissure (Jun 29, 2014)

happi said:


> the toxicity symptoms can be seen in all of his pictures, main one being darkening of the leaves which will appear as patches, melting of the leaves in random spots, yellowing of the leaves even after dosing Fe and NO3. in severe case lower part of the stems would melt away.


So signs of toxicity is pretty much the exact same as signs of deficiencies? But assuming the OP does not have any deficiencies you are assuming toxicity instead?
But my problem here is that OP is not overdosing in any way looking at his dosing it is either spot on E.I or lower. Like I said earlier I have seen a lot of toxicity talk recently but if we get toxicity from normal E.I dosing or even less would this not have shown earlier since E.I has been used for about a decade now?
Is there any specific nutrient that are causing this or is it all of them, are some worse than others?

I am standing somewhere in between and it gets one thinking about ones own dosing regime. I am not interested in starting measuring all nutrient levels down to a scientific level each week, it would be terribly boring and costly as well. But right now the "toxicity crowd" has no solutions or answers on how to dose correctly (if there is such a thing) or if they do I have missed it.
If you are right about toxicity then E.I is a hoax and what should we replace it with? I am at a total loss here not sure how to proceed with my own dosing... :/

Yellowing of the leaves and decomposing could just as well be a phosphate deficiency right? Do you have any drop test to measure for PO4 Burito?
Only thing I would say is to high is the nitrate levels at 80ppm


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Fissure said:


> ...right now the "toxicity crowd" has no solutions or answers on how to dose correctly (if there is such a thing) or if they do I have missed it.
> If you are right about toxicity then E.I is a hoax and what should we replace it with? I am at a total loss here not sure how to proceed with my own dosing... :/


I know EI is not a hoax, but that doesn't mean it can't be improved, and maybe it should be. It has always been primarily a concept, with a starting point for adequate dosing, with adjustments recommended for various reasons. Some of us, me included, have ignored the adjustments part. I wish the "toxicity crowd" could suggest some appropriate adjustments.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

Fissure said:


> So signs of toxicity is pretty much the exact same as signs of deficiencies? But assuming the OP does not have any deficiencies you are assuming toxicity instead?
> But my problem here is that OP is not overdosing in any way looking at his dosing it is either spot on E.I or lower. Like I said earlier I have seen a lot of toxicity talk recently but if we get toxicity from normal E.I dosing or even less would this not have shown earlier since E.I has been used for about a decade now?
> Is there any specific nutrient that are causing this or is it all of them, are some worse than others?
> 
> ...


not exactly same as deficiencies but rather similar to deficiencies, but still different, you have to see over all health of plants. those black spots/patch on the plants are one of the toxicity. BTW plant can be fine without PO4 for while and continue to stay fine but will stop further growth, it will not look anything like toxicity even if you stop dosing PO4 completely. 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/503585-toxicity-csm-b.html


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Fissure said:


> Yellowing of the leaves and decomposing could just as well be a phosphate deficiency right? Do you have any drop test to measure for PO4 Burito?
> Only thing I would say is to high is the nitrate levels at 80ppm


I don't have a PO4 test, but I'm dosing exact EI levels daily. 
Nitrates are down to 30ppm now (higher nitrates were caused by new Osmocote).
As for EI itself, I've never had problems with macros. But currently I'm on my second micro detox with the same scenario - better growth of Rotala.

I was in this situation few months ago, started dosing daily EI levels of traces/fe and things went south pretty quick. Even after as low as 0.05ppm fe daily dose things did not improve. Only after I stopped micro/fe dosing and few very large water changes later things started to improve. But always the Rotala is affected the most for some reason.

Here's a thread I started after these symptoms first appeared:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...05-black-dots-new-growth-rotala-colorata.html


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## Fissure (Jun 29, 2014)

Have had the same issues with all rotala species I have tried. So it seems to you to be an issue with the micros then? Wonder if it is just the FE that might be an issue or other parts of the micro solution as well.
Looking at the calculator at rottalabutterfly the suggested target dose for micros overshoots the max of 1.4 PPm FE quite much at the end of the week overshooting to almost 3 (2.79) to be more exact. Though this is without eventual plant uptake taken into consideration. Could this be the cause of the issues?
With your current dosage I would say it feels so small it almost looks pointless (not saying that it is in anyway though!). Might have to rethink my dosing. What do you guys think, is it enough to down the micros and keep the normal E.I levels for macros?
According to the drop tests I have I am in the lower spectrum of the recommended E.I levels (nitrate and phosphates, I have a K test kit but haven't used it yet) even though I am dosing normal/rich yet still get pin holes in the lower part of some plants while others are growing extremely fast and not having this issue. 
GH drops down from 6-7 (tap) to 1-2 by the end of the week so I started adding GH booster recently, havent seen any real difference yet though.


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## huhu89151734 (Jun 29, 2010)

I too been fighting with same problems the past few years, at one point I have totally stopped Micro dosing and that didn't do much if anything for me . My co2 is at 45ppm so it is not a co2 problem either. So I changed my light bulbs combo and that helped a lot, at least Rotalas would not stunt now, but They do not grow bushy and thick leaves that I like. I then tried to hang my 4x39W T5HO 6inches higher and that helped some of the Rotalas but not all. They still look sad in the morning but they get better once the light on. Maybe not much of a suggestion here, but I do agree with some people that it is not a Micro's problem.


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## easternlethal (Feb 13, 2016)

I have hc and found that once it forms a carpet unless it gets trimmed regularly it will develop all sort of issues especially if the carpet gets too thick. This is because the lower leaves will start to wither from lack of light and the some roots will detach from the substrate so sections of the carpet lose their 'grip'. Also for older tanks some plants just need to be replaced. Over time, no matter how good the conditions, they just get physically old. For stem plants, the stem just wears out and the leaves suffer by discolouring and looking less fresh. You can see this in hedges and trees on dry land. Under water is no different. I used to wonder why my old tanks never looked as good as my new ones until I did massive replants. Then hey presto everything would look good again for about a year and then I'd start wondering again whether I was fertilising properly. Now it kinda makes sense. There should be no way a plant that keeps getting trimmed off its new shoots each time is going to look as good after a year especially under co2, compared to when it was first planted under any condition. 

So here you go. Another theory. OLD PLANTS!!


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

Hey guys, there is no silver bullet here. EI, in my opinion, is still the best method out there, the easiest and the most safe. I tried the detox and I got great results for the first days of stopping dosing traces, but then I got even worse results by dosing too title, and then I had to resume dosing but and the end I found the right spot. You need to find the right spot with traces, their optimal range is much narrower than macros'.

It should be kept simple: if you think to have a toxicity, try to dose less for 2 weeks and observe. If you see improvement, you could have been dosing too much and you can try to lower it again. If it get worse, you have probably a deficiency. If you see no improvement, try to dose even less. The opposite works if you think to have a deficiency. Just remember to change your dosing regime of just traces and not touch anything else: don't change your macros dosing, no change in Co2, no change in light, no change in water change frequency, etc. just change the amount of trace dosing every 2 weeks and you'll find out.

In my experience, the softer the water the higher the possibility of toxicities. What can be toxic for someone having very soft water can be deficient for someone having hard water and vice versa.


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

fablau said:


> Hey guys, there is no silver bullet here. EI, in my opinion, is still the best method out there, the easiest and the most safe. I tried the detox and I got great results for the first days of stopping dosing traces, but then I got even worse results by dosing too title, and then I had to resume dosing but and the end I found the right spot. You need to find the right spot with traces, their optimal range is much narrower than macros'.
> 
> It should be kept simple: if you think to have a toxicity, try to dose less for 2 weeks and observe. If you see improvement, you could have been dosing too much and you can try to lower it again. If it get worse, you have probably a deficiency. If you see no improvement, try to dose even less. The opposite works if you think to have a deficiency. Just remember to change your dosing regime of just traces and not touch anything else: don't change your macros dosing, no change in Co2, no change in light, no change in water change frequency, etc. just change the amount of trace dosing every 2 weeks and you'll find out.
> 
> In my experience, the softer the water the higher the possibility of toxicities. What can be toxic for someone having very soft water can be deficient for someone having hard water and vice versa.


Well that's what I did. Dosing 0.25 ppm Micro/Fe mix daily, after about two weeks, Rotala started loosing color and developing black/pink dots and was not growing much. So I increased the dosing to 0.7ppm daily with catastrophic results and had to throw away most of the Rotala stems. So I replanted few survivors, stopped all traces and Fe completely and after about two weeks things started to improve again slowly. Then I started dosing Micros/Fe again, first day 0.1ppm, then only 0.05ppm daily and things went down the hill once again... And here I am now doing the same detox period all over again with the same results - better growth of Rotala.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

If it were just one or two species of plant's,I might be tempted to try something else.(different species)
If all plant's were struggling,then time to backtrack to see what I was doing when they were doin good,and what I changed if anything that was different.
Sometimes I think our tank's become victim's of our own success.
Plant's take off but we do not trim/prune,thin out to encourage new growth and perhap's distribution of the light, nutrient's, and gas (if using injection) had easier time reaching area's that are now too crowded.??


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Burito said:


> Well that's what I did. Dosing 0.25 ppm Micro/Fe mix daily, after about two weeks, Rotala started loosing color and developing black/pink dots and was not growing much. So I increased the dosing to 0.7ppm daily with catastrophic results and had to throw away most of the Rotala stems. So I replanted few survivors, stopped all traces and Fe completely and after about two weeks things started to improve again slowly. Then I started dosing Micros/Fe again, first day 0.1ppm, then only 0.05ppm daily and things went down the hill once again... And here I am now doing the same detox period all over again with the same results - better growth of Rotala.


If I understand you correctly, you can dose high traces, medium traces, low traces or no traces and still having problems. What if the substrate is so toxic with accumulated old unused traces that the experiment on finding proper traces is lost?


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

Edward said:


> If I understand you correctly, you can dose high traces, medium traces, low traces or no traces and still having problems. What if the substrate is so toxic with accumulated old unused traces that the experiment on finding proper traces is lost?


that is what i was trying to explain earlier regarding substrate being toxic because of osmocote, cutting out liquid dosing of traces will have very minimum effect in that case, things might look fine after few water changes but it will go back to same issue again.

Bump: what do you guys see?


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Hmm, have grown sword plant's in pot's with mixture of soil and Azomite at near 50/50 mixture in tanks holding large cichlid's that would uproot the plant's from substrate.
The sword's would need larger pot within a year and I noted no toxicity or deficiencies until they became root bound in the pot and root's began to come up through the soil/azomite mixture.
My low tech tanks run for a year or more with soil,clay,peat (Good CEC) mixture and never get vaccumed.
I do not think substrate is much of a player from my own unscientific observation's.
Azomite is very rich in mineral's and metal's, and I should think if substrate toxicity was an issue ,the sword plant's I mentioned grown in pot's with the stuff would have shown symptom's of toxicity. (they just grew too well).


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Roadmaster, because you brought it up I would like to add to your comments. In my 75g tank I have a rather large Amazon sword and an equally large Melon sword. They have been in the tank with the Eco Complete for more than 1 year and are among the healthiest swords I have seen. I regularly (every other week) cut off 4-6 leave from the Amazon sword because they are growing out of the top of the tank.
So, with all that said, if I had a micro toxic substraight I would think the swords would show something.
I used to have a large collection of bylxa japonica but now am down to only 1 straggler. Seems the roots just melt off the plant (like the substraight was toxic).
My rotala indica is growing, but the roots don't seem very happy.
My hygrophila corymbosa grows like crazy but it seems I have only enough roots in the soil to barely hold it in place. The rest of the stem is cover with water roots (don't know the official name for these).
So, if the Eco complete was toxic, wouldn't everything suffer?


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

some plant can tolerate more toxicity, keep in mind if soil is not acid then toxicity of traces are decreased, same is true if you have hard water. toxicity is more severe in soft and acid water along with acidic soil.


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

Burito said:


> Well that's what I did. Dosing 0.25 ppm Micro/Fe mix daily, after about two weeks, Rotala started loosing color and developing black/pink dots and was not growing much. So I increased the dosing to 0.7ppm daily with catastrophic results and had to throw away most of the Rotala stems. So I replanted few survivors, stopped all traces and Fe completely and after about two weeks things started to improve again slowly. Then I started dosing Micros/Fe again, first day 0.1ppm, then only 0.05ppm daily and things went down the hill once again... And here I am now doing the same detox period all over again with the same results - better growth of Rotala.



Yes, I think that the fact you have Osmocote in the substrate screws things up. And it looks like Rotala plants are very sensitive to possible toxicities. If you see improvements with low or no traces, don't dose them anymore. Have you tried not to dose traces for a few weeks?


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

happi said:


> some plant can tolerate more toxicity, keep in mind if soil is not acid then toxicity of traces are decreased, same is true if you have hard water. toxicity is more severe in soft and acid water along with acidic soil.


 
I think this could be so.
Believe all soil's can become acidic with time unless mineral content is sufficient enough to prevent it in any large degree.
I do have fairly hard water from the tap, and have been noticing some issues with Ludwigia repens, but am hoping some iron FEDTPA I have coming will bring some improvement.
Believe the Iron in the CSM+B is precipitating out too quickly in the hard water.
Rather than add more CSM+B, that I use once a week,I will use the FE DTPA (Greenleaf aquarium.com) mid week.


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Edward said:


> If I understand you correctly, you can dose high traces, medium traces, low traces or no traces and still having problems. What if the substrate is so toxic with accumulated old unused traces that the experiment on finding proper traces is lost?


Only with no traces/fe dosing at all I was able to see improvement after few days.


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

fablau said:


> Yes, I think that the fact you have Osmocote in the substrate screws things up. And it looks like Rotala plants are very sensitive to possible toxicities. If you see improvements with low or no traces, don't dose them anymore. Have you tried not to dose traces for a few weeks?


I'm on my second micro/fe detox right now. It's been more than two weeks now and I can definitely see positive results on Rotala. The Pearlweed is recovering slowly, like I stated before, it had some issues with the micros (curling of new leaves and few small patches), but the most damage came from the H2O2 treatment. Other plants are doing fine so far, with micros dosing or not. I only notices slightly curled new leaves of S. Repens back when I was dosing very high amounts over 0.5ppm daily for a few days. But that recovered pretty quick and was doing Ok with 0.05ppm daily. Only Rotala and Pearlweed seem to be affected by higher traces (mostly Rotala).
As for the Osmocote causing toxic substrate. These problems started few months back when there was different substrate without Osmocote, but I was dosing EI levels of micros/fe. Again link to thread I started because of this http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...05-black-dots-new-growth-rotala-colorata.html


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

One more thing to mention. I have two more low light/low tech tanks, one with just Anubias, Bacopa, Dwarf Sagittaria and Java Moss with inert 1mm sand and weekly dosing of low amounts of NPK. Few months back, when I was changing the substrate and adding some new plants to the high tech, I planted two small (5cm) stems of Rotala to this low light tank just to see if it can survive in there. It did. Growing extremely slowly, but managed to look healthy without any dots, patched or melting. Then after about a month I started adding micros/fe (EasyLife Profito) because I was seeing pale new growth on the Sagittaria. I was adding EI low light/weekly dose of 0.2ppm calculated based on this Aquarium Nutrient Calculator
Well guess what... Rotala started to develop black dots and leaves started to melt. Again, other plants doing fine. 
I don't want to get into fights and blaming everything on toxicity, just presenting my observations and trying to learn what I'm doing wrong.


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## switch26 (Jan 25, 2012)

I found this thread and wanted to chime in.. I've had similar results in a new tank I started at my house.

My setup was ADA aquasoil, I fully planted the tank and the first two to 3 weeks I did not dose any fertz. Everything grew insanely well and fast. Rotala wallichi was a crazy pink color that I've never been able to achieve. Growing very fast. I also had Rotala butterfly growing perfectly and bright red.

I was doing water changes everyday, for the first few weeks to avoid ammonia spikes from ada soil.

Well once plants were established I started dosing full ei for a 40 gallon. I even dosed extra because I was using high light so the plants were up taking a lot of nutrients.

Well less than 24 hrs later I came down to look at the tank and my wallichi was completely burnt or cinged looking. Tops were crumpled and brownish instead of the bright pink they were 24 hra earlier. Rotala butterfly also took a dive and now I can't really grow either. Wallichi is making a little comeback, but I have stopped dosing plantex for now and my Rotala rotund and that has started growing normal again. Previous the tips were small and twisted and it could not be anything co2 related as the co2 blows directly over them all day long.

I will try to post some comparison photos so people can chime in


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

switch26 said:


> I found this thread and wanted to chime in.. I've had similar results in a new tank I started at my house.
> 
> My setup was ADA aquasoil, I fully planted the tank and the first two to 3 weeks I did not dose any fertz. Everything grew insanely well and fast. Rotala wallichi was a crazy pink color that I've never been able to achieve. Growing very fast. I also had Rotala butterfly growing perfectly and bright red.
> 
> ...


 
Well it you use more than EI ranges,then you aren't dosing EI any longer.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Burito said:


> ... I was adding low light/weekly dose of 0.2ppm calculated based on this Aquarium Nutrient Calculator
> Well guess what... Rotala started to develop black dots and leaves started to melt. ...


 Does it mean you were dosing 0.2 ppm once a week or 0.03 ppm a day? That would make a difference.


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Edward said:


> Does it mean you were dosing 0.2 ppm once a week or 0.03 ppm a day? That would make a difference.


On that tank it was 0.2ppm once a week as suggested for EI low light.


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

Yes, those are surely signs of toxicities. Rotalas are known to be sensitive to high traces. In my experience, in low tech tanks even 0.05ppm Fe from CSM+B a week could cause issues. Burito, is yours Rotala Rotundifolia?


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

So after more than three weeks of detox and no Traces or Fe dosing, the Rotala Colorata has reached the the top of the tank and upper parts look pretty healthy. (only those two stems). I'm starting to see some pale new growth on Pearl Weed (and a little diatoms on the edges of leaves). As an experiment, I may sacrifice these two Rotala stems and start adding 0.05ppm Fe a day (Traces and Iron mix) and see how it goes. I was planning a water change with some trimming tomorrow. But cannot decide if I should trim, replant the healthiest top portions and let it root first or should I start adding the Fe right away? They're growing really fast right now and in few days it will be growing out of water...


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

Burito, i just looked at those pictures and it doesn't appear to be suffering from toxicity anymore, based on the new leaves that i could see. the paleness could be due to lack of magnesium, leave everything the same and try adding 0.2-0.3ppm Mg daily. if that did not improve anything i suggest just adding Fe 0.05-0.1ppm daily without any traces.


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

I don't have a Mg only source to dose, but my water is very hard so Mg should not be problem I guess. Why should I leave all traces for now and dose Fe only?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

I agree that it's looking less and less like a tox. From my own experience, a true toxicity is almost always accompanied by twisted or deformed new growth, often will be the first sign, along with chlorosis, discoloration etc etc.

You can have hard water and still be low on Mg. My tap for example has 50 ppm Ca and 4.4 Mg. Technically that should be enough Mg, but things got a lot better when I began adding an additional 10 ppm Mg at water changes (via Epsom Salt). 

I've never put much stock in ratios, but maybe there's some truth behind the often recommended 4 or 5:1 Ca:Mg ratio after all. Idk...


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## switch26 (Jan 25, 2012)

So Roadmaster why does Tom Barr always suggest overdosing EI will not affect growth or cause algae issues? Clearly in several peoples cases there seem to be toxicity issues


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

My local water report states only total Ca+Mg content of 3.15mmol = 315ppm = 17.6dGH. So hard to say what exactly the ratio is. I ordered some MgSO4x7H2O today, so will try that for the S. Repens and Pearlweed chlorosis. Until it arrives, I think I'll pull out and replant the healthy top portions of the Rotala and let it root and grow a little before I try any Fe or Micros. I have to do a water change and some trimming today because Pogostemon Erectus is growing like crazy. Do you think the chlorosis is something I should be worried about as for permanent damage of the affected plants until the Mg arrives? I don't have a way to add any Mg without micros and I don't want to do that for now.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Epsom salt is magnesium sulfate. It's readily available at grocery stores, drug stores, wal mart, etc. But yeah if those GH numbers are right it doesnt sound like you need it


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Ah ok, I can check in drug store near me. I see online that they might have some magnesium sulfate heptahydrate (which is basically what I ordered) for liver treatment or something like that.

Still, I'm not sure the paleness of new leaves is comming from Mg deficiency. As a mobile nutrient, shouldn't lack of Mg cause older leaves to be pale first?


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

switch26 said:


> So Roadmaster why does Tom Barr always suggest overdosing EI will not affect growth or cause algae issues? Clearly in several peoples cases there seem to be toxicity issues


 
EI alone,independent of all other variables like plant mass,lighting,CO2,water source,substrate composistion, fish load,fish feeding's, Algae crew or lack thereof,tank maint, and plant maint, has not in my view, been proven to be problematic.Would think that as long as EI has been around ,more would have explored this much sooner ,but try as one might,,it does not seem to be, according to majority of folk's using this particular method.Issues reported across several forum's are often corrected and had little to do with EI ranges for NPK or traces from what I have seen.
Other variables are often dismissed in an effort to lay blame somewhere.
Tom as well as a few other's on his site have out of curiosity, or perceived problem's with growth, tried the trace detox with seemingly immediate improvement, followed by near as fast decline according to those who posted on the topic.
I cannot speak for Tom,only for me.


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## Saxa Tilly (Apr 7, 2015)

*You're not alone*



switch26 said:


> I found this thread and wanted to chime in.. I've had similar results in a new tank I started at my house.
> 
> My setup was ADA aquasoil, I fully planted the tank and the first two to 3 weeks I did not dose any fertz. Everything grew insanely well and fast. Rotala wallichi was a crazy pink color that I've never been able to achieve. Growing very fast. I also had Rotala butterfly growing perfectly and bright red.
> 
> ...


I'm not surprised to read this. I wish I knew what the solution was. But a LOT of people have issues with Rotala and EI. I am among them. And frustratingly, a lot of people have no issues whatsoever growing Rotala in EI conditions. But it's always the Rotala that complain.


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## switch26 (Jan 25, 2012)

roadmaster said:


> EI alone,independent of all other variables like plant mass,lighting,CO2,water source,substrate composistion, fish load,fish feeding's, Algae crew or lack thereof,tank maint, and plant maint, has not in my view, been proven to be problematic.Would think that as long as EI has been around ,more would have explored this much sooner ,but try as one might,,it does not seem to be, according to majority of folk's using this particular method.Issues reported across several forum's are often corrected and had little to do with EI ranges for NPK or traces from what I have seen.
> Other variables are often dismissed in an effort to lay blame somewhere.
> Tom as well as a few other's on his site have out of curiosity, or perceived problem's with growth, tried the trace detox with seemingly immediate improvement, followed by near as fast decline according to those who posted on the topic.
> I cannot speak for Tom,only for me.




That is understandable, and I get that more things can be at play other than just a toxicity issue like plant load, fish load, etc..

In my particular case it was literally an overnight change where i started dosing EI for the first time and right after i dosed Plantex+csmb within 24 hours all my bright pink rotala wallichi looked like someone took a blow torch to all of them


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

switch26 said:


> In my particular case it was literally an overnight change where i started dosing EI for the first time and right after i dosed Plantex+csmb within 24 hours all my bright pink rotala wallichi looked like someone took a blow torch to all of them


Ive had this exact same experience more than a few times with several species, finicky stems mostly.

I understand the skepticism held by many. If I was dosing .5 csmb with awesome results I would be skeptical too. But for those of us who have seen it up close and personal there can be no doubt. No idea why it happens for some and not to others.....wish I did!


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

switch26 said:


> That is understandable, and I get that more things can be at play other than just a toxicity issue like plant load, fish load, etc..
> 
> In my particular case it was literally an overnight change where i started dosing EI for the first time and right after i dosed Plantex+csmb within 24 hours all my bright pink rotala wallichi looked like someone took a blow torch to all of them


 
Well.you say in previous post # 40 that you dosed EI values and even added extra because you were using high light NO?
EI was developed under more light than most will ever use, and CO2 levels as well.Light,CO2,nutrient's were increased gradually until more made no difference in rate of growth.
If you dose more than EI then it is not EI any longer, and could very well be that too much trace could have negative effect on some species if traces were also increased.
They are called traces for a reason, for plant's only need traces.
If some claim that they can or do for whatever reason, dose 2 to 3 X EI values without issue,then I can see where frustration/confusion can gain traction with other's.
Some folk's will always,always,always, Feed too much,medicate too much,dose too much fertz for present condition's,use too much light,in belief that if a little is good,then more is better.(is just the way it is)
When I began adding fertilizer's, it was very low tech affair And other than fish food/poo, the only thing I added twice a week was Flourish comprehensive.
Low light,slow,easy plant's.Didn't need much.
If I was unsure or spooked by CSM+B, I might try this for trace mineral's.
Or..dose less CSM+B.
I often wonder sometimes if all of the aquatic weed's really want to grow well submerged,or if some would not rather be emmersed such as more than a few species are in the wild.
Maybe some adapt better than other's with all other variables being equal?
I do not subscribe to alleopathy so much as I believe that some plant's are just better at grabbing what they need to grow as opposed to other's in a glass box of water,or in a stream/lake.
This is why I think EI is good from plant's perspective, for it does a fair job of limiting possible deficiencies/limitation across a wide range of plant's/condition's .
Leaves only Light and CO2 , to get right.
Leave EI dosing scheme if you like and try some other method,but if you dose more or less than that method call's for,then it will not be that method any longer but a variation of it.
Everybody I think over time,adjust's their method to suit their condition's, but takes a while,and some experience's, to know for sure whether you are actually helping, or hurting. 
This is hard when your plant's are performing badly,so I understand how one can begin to doubt or become suspect.
Just not sure that CSM+B alone,,,is the culprit.
Just too many other damn variables.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

In the interest of CSM+B toxicity or trace toxicity associated with CSM+B thread's, I have begun expierimenting with Azomite at 1/4 tsp once a week, in my low tech 80 gal tank.
Prolly closer to 75 gal if you subtract for substrate/hardscape.
I dosed once last week,and due again on sunday.
So my dosing once a week conist's of ..
1/2 tsp KNO3
1/2 tsp KH2PO4
1/4 tsp Azomite.
50% water change once a week.
NO CO2 or EXCEL.
Dirt substrate comprised of top soil,peat,special kitty cat litter.
Lighting has been recently changed from four T5 bulbs 22 inches above he substrate to three T8 bulbs for eight hours resting on the tank.
Anubia wall on 3/4 of back glass,crypt's,lace java fern,ludwigia red,Sword plant "Indian red".
Cherry shrimp,and amano shrimp, along with corydoras,swordtail's,fancy guppies,Farlowella,white clouds,neon's.
Thus far ,I have seen no negative effect on fishes or invert's(reproduction) but have only dosed small amount.
Is not my fear of CSM+B that spurred this wholly unscientific expieriment just curiosity.
I spurned the azomite when first it was discussed here in 2013 but only the claims made that it resulted in improved fish health (still doubt this)
I have used it before with dirt mix but never as trace mixed in a cup of aquarium water and dumped in the tank like I did with CSM+B.
I do NOT recommend other's try this ,just sayin I am.
Keepin close eye on fishes/plant's.
Would not take much of a negative response from either for me to abandon the Azomite but time will tell.
Maybe the stuff might be a suitable alternative in moderation.


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Just an update:
Added some MgSO4 during water change (according to my calculations around 6-7ppm).
NO3 dropped to around 10ppm, so started adding 3.5ppm NO3 daily (which adds another 2.1ppm of K).
Trimmed the Pogostemon Erectus as it started emersed growth on the top. Trimmed and replanted some S. Repens.
Pulled the two long Rotala stems and replanted only top halfs. Discarded all the remaining Rotala stems as they looked really ugly, were not growing much and only adding organic waste to the tank. I didn't like the Pogostemon Helferi that much either, so I removed it to my low tech tank for now. I realized my tank lost the color variation it had, so I decided to put something red in. I was thinking AR mini instead of the P. Helferi. I called the guy I got the Rotala from and I got lucky. He just did a major trim, so I ended up with some Alternanthera Reineckii Mini, Rotala Wallichii and what I believe is Rotala Indica (Ammania Bonsai) and of course more Rotala Colorata. Some of the plants were trimmed without the intend to sell them, so spent some time in trash before I got there. But after two days it looks like they're adjusting just fine. Full tanks shot attached.
S. Repens kind of stopped growing for some reason and developed this tiny little fuzz algae on leaves. It might be result of some deficiency and chlorosis coming from lack of Mg or Fe. So I guess it's time for some Iron again.
I will start adding 0.03ppm of Fe daily (EasyLife Ferro). No other micros just yet. Will see how that goes with three types of Rotalas now...


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Few more funny facts. I talked to the guy I got the plants from and took a water sample as well.
He has basically the same tap water I have and not even adding dechlorinator... Tank water: NH3/NH4=0, NO2=0, NO3=0(!), PH=6.9, GH=14, KH=5, Fe=0.1 (according to my drop test).
His current tank (60p) has been running for 6 months. Dosing heavily K and Fe daily, with very lean CO2 (his words). Light is ADA Aquasky 602, on for 10 hours (from which both lights on for 6).
I have to say, the growth and colors were amazing. According to his words the real difference in growth came when started using ADA Aquasoil.
Still can't believe the amounts of Fe he's dumping in everyday with no visible signs of toxicity (at least I didn't see anything obvious) and the growth with no measurable NO3 in water column.
I'd really like to see the tank in 6+ months when the Aquasoil is older.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Burito said:


> Tank water: NH3/NH4=0, NO2=0, NO3=0(!), PH=6.9, GH=14, KH=5, Fe=0.1 (according to my drop test).


PO4 ppm ?


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

I don't have a PO4 test so can't tell, but he wasn't dosing any at that time.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

Burito said:


> Few more funny facts. I talked to the guy I got the plants from and took a water sample as well.
> He has basically the same tap water I have and not even adding dechlorinator... Tank water: NH3/NH4=0, NO2=0, NO3=0(!), PH=6.9, GH=14, KH=5, Fe=0.1 (according to my drop test).
> His current tank (60p) has been running for 6 months. Dosing heavily K and Fe daily, with very lean CO2 (his words). Light is ADA Aquasky 602, on for 10 hours (from which both lights on for 6).
> I have to say, the growth and colors were amazing. According to his words the real difference in growth came when started using ADA Aquasoil.
> ...



he must be using fe gluconate, which can be overdosed a little without any toxicity, it doesn't last in water for so long.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

happi said:


> he must be using fe gluconate, which can be overdosed a little without any toxicity, it doesn't last in water for so long.


??? Why ? 

If anything gluconate would be the most toxic of all iron supplements because it is not chelated strongly. Chelation like DTPA and EDTA hold onto iron long term and prevent them from deteriorating. There is published data on the reduced toxicity of chelated metals compared with unchelated.


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Unfortunatelly I didn't ask more details, but I imagine he's using some ADA stuff... I was also searching for Fe type and chelators used in EasyLife Ferro and Profito (which I'm dosing) but couldn't find any credible info.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Burito said:


> Few more funny facts. I talked to the guy I got the plants from and took a water sample as well.
> He has basically the same tap water I have and not even adding dechlorinator... Tank water: NH3/NH4=0, NO2=0, NO3=0(!), PH=6.9, GH=14, KH=5, Fe=0.1 (according to my drop test).


How do he and other ADA aquariums grow plants well in so low nutrient levels? I expect to receive the same, often repeated “ADA nutrients are in the substrates.” Ok, then what about these? Where are these plants getting nutrients from?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93XidRyxqr0


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## pipelayer (Sep 24, 2013)

> How do he and other ADA aquariums grow plants well in so low nutrient levels? I expect to receive the same, often repeated “ADA nutrients are in the substrates.” Ok, then what about these? Where are these plants getting nutrients from?


Could it be from the same nutrients just leaching into the water from the substrate? To me this would explain a lot.


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## nel (Jan 23, 2016)

Probably it works like that. When the concentration of nutritiens is going low, they start to leak (balancing concentrations of water and substrate) and that's why everything is so low. It leaks just as much as needed. I heard sometimes after a year or so it may stop working and just leaks everything into the water.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

Zapins said:


> ??? Why ?
> 
> If anything gluconate would be the most toxic of all iron supplements because it is not chelated strongly. Chelation like DTPA and EDTA hold onto iron long term and prevent them from deteriorating. There is published data on the reduced toxicity of chelated metals compared with unchelated.


because it appear seachem dose 0.4 ppm in there ferts, imagine if someone is dosing that more often or imagine someone dosing 0.4ppm with dtpa, i was judging the toxicity based on the Fe levels present in the water instead of what type of chelator it comes from, not sure how much effect chelate vs non chelate Fe would have on plants as toxicity. seems like most of us our judging based on Fe levels present in the water, which gluconate wouldn't last in the water for so long compare to EDTA or DTPA.

i would love to hear more from you, i think i have read that toxicity of Fe gluconate and other chelated Fe somewhere in one of your post if i remember correctly, but it has been a long time. 

but i thought 0.4 ppm Fe in single dose from Fe gluconate is safe compare to single dose of 0.4 ppm Fe from DTPA? due to Fe gluconate only lasting in water for few minutes or so?????


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

happi said:


> i would love to hear more from you, i think i have read that toxicity of Fe gluconate and other chelated Fe somewhere in one of your post if i remember correctly, but it has been a long time.


I'm happy that people are taking an interest in deficiencies/toxicities since I think it has generally been an area of the hobby that has been filled with many unknowns. My concern is that people may be starting to diagnose all problems as "zebras instead of horses" when it comes to micro toxicities. I am concerned people are getting the wrong idea about the micro toxicity posts I wrote a while back which seems to have started a lot of this discussion about toxic nutrients.

I do think there is some fairly good evidence for micro toxicity being the cause of some cases of bad plant growth in the hobby but I do not believe toxicities are very common. From what I've seen over the last few years less than 1% of the issues were from micronutrient trace nutrient toxicities. Far more were from other toxicities like gluteraldehyde, peroxide, excel, and algaecide treatments and dips. 

Toxicities seem to have become a rather popular explanation for almost everything on the forums lately almost regardless of the tank parameters without going through the steps of diagnosing nutrient deficiencies and toxicities at all. I've also seen a lot of very specific information about what ranges are and aren't toxic and how everyone should be dosing tiny amounts of micros. However, I haven't seen a lot of sources or explanations for why those things should be true. In fact, from most of the literature I've read contradicts the need to use extremely low levels of most micro nutrients. 

For several of the micro nutrients toxicity begins in the 30+ ppm range. I found one or two studies that mentioned toxicities for iron starting around 2 ppm for unchelated iron and copper which is toxic around 0.1 ppm, so having a toxicity above those levels appears to be a possibility though not a guarantee. 

Sources that discussed chelation specifically mentioned how chelating agents strongly reduce the toxicity of micros by 10x or more, so theoretically we shouldn't be seeing toxicities until we are into some seriously high nutrient levels. In fact, if someone was to be poisoned by a heavy metal like lead or mercury they'd go to the hospital where they'd be chelated with EDTA which actively binds up the toxic metal and can be removed from the body. I'll have to sift through the old posts when I have some time and see if I can find the one you mentioned about the chelation effects. 



happi said:


> but i thought 0.4 ppm Fe in single dose from Fe gluconate is safe compare to single dose of 0.4 ppm Fe from DTPA? due to Fe gluconate only lasting in water for few minutes or so?????


Unchelated metals are converted to forms that plants cannot use as effectively or at all, that doesn't necessarily mean they are all eliminated from the water column. Plants can still "see" a lot of the converted nutrients in the water column since a lot of the converted nutrients are still dissolved. Metals are usually just oxidized, for example from +2 to +3 which makes them unusable to the plant as a nutrient, but doesn't mean they can't still hurt the plant.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

Zapins said:


> I'm happy that people are taking an interest in deficiencies/toxicities since I think it has generally been an area of the hobby that has been filled with many unknowns. My concern is that people may be starting to diagnose all problems as "zebras instead of horses" when it comes to micro toxicities. I am concerned people are getting the wrong idea about the micro toxicity posts I wrote a while back which seems to have started a lot of this discussion about toxic nutrients.
> 
> I do think there is some fairly good evidence for micro toxicity being the cause of some cases of bad plant growth in the hobby but I do not believe toxicities are very common. From what I've seen over the last few years less than 1% of the issues were from micronutrient trace nutrient toxicities. Far more were from other toxicities like gluteraldehyde, peroxide, excel, and algaecide treatments and dips.
> 
> ...


thanks Zapins,

now i remember where i read about those posts, yes EDTA, DTPA etc is better at binding metals, does that also include Amino acids as well, because it also bind metals far as i could remember, what happen if one adds little bit of amino acid in there trace solution? isn't that suppose to bind most of those metals? i think same is true for fulvic acid. 

i am always learning, so correct me if i or anyone else ever make a mistake. 

it seems like csm+b or miller they all use better chelate for their trace, but some people still have some issue regarding toxicities, which they claimed got better after reducing traces, i myself was able to grow UG and some other plant that would normally melt under same water parameter when i was dosing EI style Traces. maybe i see toxicities quite fast due to my super soft water, while those with harder water have less issue. but honestly those plants showed positive results even though i was no where near close to those toxic numbers you have mentioned. 

i will carry further studies to see how things go with plants and toxicities, like i said there is always things to learn, thanks for sharing more information.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

The problem is that toxicity studies are in and out in few weeks’ time. Also, they don’t apply to aquariums because they research only imminent water level concentrations with fresh substrates, if any. 

If there was a research done on traces toxicity of a year old traces saturated substrate then we could have some valuable results. 

I see numerous detox threads going low and high and nowhere, because doing a detox in the presence of trace elements saturated substrate is like setting up an alcohol rehab addiction treatment center inside a whiskey distillery building.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

Edward said:


> The problem is that toxicity studies are in and out in few weeks’ time. Also, they don’t apply to aquariums because they research only imminent water level concentrations with fresh substrates, if any.
> 
> If there was a research done on traces toxicity of a year old traces saturated substrate then we could have some valuable results.
> 
> I see numerous detox threads going low and high and nowhere, because doing a detox in the presence of trace elements saturated substrate is like setting up an alcohol rehab addiction treatment center inside a whiskey distillery building.


i was considering changing my substrate to see what will happen, because am sure i have tons of traces in substrate from previous EI and Osmocote, or i can just add little new soil in container and place it in my tank and add few plants to it to see what happens next.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

As far as I can tell the issue with a lot of the detox/rehab threads is not that they are going nowhere because they are set up badly as much as they are going nowhere because the root cause hasn't been determined accurately or with any kind of criteria that can be ruled in or out. The assumption is made that it is a trace toxicity and the assumption leads to solutions that don't solve the real underlying issue. It is like trying to cure a broken leg with antibiotics, it just isn't the right cure for the problem. 

The studies & their conclusions give background to the situation, they give symptoms, they use aquatic species we keep, and they give situations in which toxicities happened for certain. They do not give 100% blanket statement values which are toxic for every single situation which is likely why there is disagreement between the studies on the lower range where toxicity happens. 

The studies are not mirror images of our personal aquarium situations though that said they are still useful and should not be ignored. 

A slowly leaching substrate may be an issue, but that is a separate problem, slowly leaching substrate do not cause toxicities, nutrient overdoses cause toxicities. 

A trace toxicity should give you fairly uniform symptoms when you are using the same trace mix and those symptoms should be documentable and reliable for a given test environment.


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Zapins said:


> From what I've seen over the last few years less than 1% of the issues were from micronutrient trace nutrient toxicities. Far more were from other toxicities like gluteraldehyde, peroxide, excel, and algaecide treatments and dips.


Yeah that's true in my case with the Pearlweed. It was not doing 100%, but the major damage was caused by H2O2. The holes and patches on leaves looked like those on Rotala, but the root cause was probably different. It seems Hemianthus is far more sensitive to peroxide then is to high micronutrient levels.


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## dzega (Apr 22, 2013)

In my experience glutaraldehyde messes up some plants pretty bad even at recommended doses. And so does h2o2 "safe" treatment (1ml/gal). Still my sweet spot for traces is 2-3x less than per EI.


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Update:
Continued dosing daily 3.5ppm NO3 / 0.6ppm PO4 / 5.5ppm K / 0.03ppm Fe
Added another 6-7ppm MgSO4 during today's waterchange.
Rotala Wallichii growing really fast, one stem already reached to top of the tank only after 4 days after planting.
Rotala Indica has some new leaves and started to grow side roots. Otos uproot it every night, it's very small and short. 
Staurogyne Repens has some new growth, but it's very pale. From those pictures, can you tell this is Mg or Fe related? Also new leaves shape is kind of different then it used to be. Now it has this shorter heart shape, before it grew a bit longer (the big plant on the left). Older growth has some GSA.
Newly planted Rotala Colorata has some new growth, but it's almost completely green, with shorter and wider leaves then old ones. Old two replanted stems have some new growth and look pretty much the same as before. One stem is directly in the filter current and is bending a bit because of it.
Pearlweed is growing slowly, new growth is also pale. With that amount of light and co2, I think this plant should grow much faster.
AR mini is doing good, not much change since planted.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Burito said:


> Update:
> Continued dosing daily 3.5ppm NO3 / 0.6ppm PO4 / 5.5ppm K / 0.03ppm Fe


 Do you expect your plants to take the 3.5 ppm of NO3 a day? Anyway, you are getting closer and closer to the right ratio. The happy Wallichii told me so.


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Sorry, that should be 3.25ppm NO3. That's EI daily value. I had very high nitrates before (80+) from Osmocote. Now it has dropped, so I started dosing EI levels to rule out any deficiency.

R. Wallichii still may have some nutrients stored from previous tank. I'd give it few more days to say if it likes my water.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Wallichi is often an irritating plant to grow and frequently stuns and curls when other plants are growing very well. So the fact that it is doing well means you are doing something right.

The pale new growth may be an early sign of iron deficiency. Iron deficiency only shows up in new growth since it is an immobile nutrient. Magnesium deficiency shows up as interveinal chlorosis in old leaves only since it is a mobile nutrient within the plant and can be removed from old tissue when none can be found in the environment.

Some iron deficient rotala plants for you to compare yours with from Deficiency Finder


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Zapins said:


> The pale new growth may be an early sign of iron deficiency.


Yes, I'm quite positive my S. Repens is Iron deficient.

Now I would really love to hear your opinions about the Rotala...
So after only four days of 0.03ppm of Fe daily (exactly 1 drop of EasyLife Ferro) I'm starting to see the same symptoms as in my previous experiments. This is the third time I'm doing this and again with the same results. It starts with small black dots and strange pink patches. I bet if I continue with this Fe dosing, it will just twist and slowly melt.
This is the very same stem as on all the previous prictures in this thread. Same one posted only yesterday. Some of you confirmed, you're not seeing any signts of toxicity anymore few days ago. How is it that only after four days of such small Fe dosing I'm seeing this again?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Whatever was going on initially your plants are probably iron deficient now, so you should up the iron dose. 

Iron is one of the immobile nutrients within plants. This means iron cannot be stored and removed from older tissue as the plant grows new leaves. That means if there is no iron in the environment the plant can't get it from old leaves and so the new leaves are made without iron. Since iron is part of the photosynthetic pigments which give plants color the plant will grow out pale or colorless when there is no iron. If the plant is growing quickly and suddenly runs out of iron then it will quickly show symptoms and become pale.


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Zapins, seems like you have far more knowledge and experience then me. Looking at those pictures and the whole thread, you're saying I should continue and even increase Fe dosing and things should improve? I see the Fe deficiency in S. Repens, but what about the Rotala Colorata?

I was not dosing any iron or traces and the Rotala actually got better (new growth only). Now after four days of 0.03ppm Fe things are starting to go downhill again. Nothing else was changed.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

i was testing to see what will happen if i stop dosing traces and only dose Fe, the results were pale growth still, i dosed about 0.3 ppm Fe from DTPA and plant looked more pale, then i thought maybe its due to lack of Mn, so i added all the needed traces and Mn was around 0.04ppm, still no improvement. things looked better color wise after skipping the dose of traces and Fe for the next few days. now i think there are few things that might be occurring which effect the plant color, am dosing too much PO4 daily which some how is effecting the uptake of Fe, even though i cant think of the reason for any possible reaction because my water is very soft. for whatever reason plant always looked better color wise whenever i skipped all dosing for the next few days.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Thank you.

I entered this thread late so I have not read the first several pages. But as I mentioned before toxicities aren't that common so the original problem might have been from some other cause. 

How much trace were you adding initially in the first post before you reduced it?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

The last page or two of my journal may offer some food for thought @Burito (16-17). I have experienced similar issues which are trace/Fe related. Not exactly the same, but perhaps relevant.


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Zapins said:


> How much trace were you adding initially in the first post before you reduced it?


Before this last detox period it was 0.05ppm Fe daily in 2:1 mix of Traces and Fe (Easylife Profito and Ferro).


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

burr740 said:


> The last page or two of my journal may offer some food for thought @Burito (16-17). I have experienced similar issues which are trace/Fe related. Not exactly the same, but perhaps relevant.


Yes I've read your thread before (and I really like your tank), but could not come to any direct conclusion. There seem to be a very thin line between deficiency and toxicity for some plants. Or is it chronic Fe deficiency? Mn/Fe/PO4 imbalance? Bad "type" of Fe?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

If you were dosing 0.05 ppm a day that is 0.35 a week in a heavily planted tank. I don't think that is enough and likely lead to chronic iron deficiency which matches the symptoms you had then and now. 

For your tank I'd dose no less than 0.7 ppm a week or 0.1 ppm per day.


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Zapins said:


> For your tank I'd dose no less than 0.7 ppm a week or 0.1 ppm per day.


Fe / Micro mix or Fe only?

BTW, I was dosing 0.25ppm daily with very bad results for Rotala... (post #28)


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

You can use pure CSM+B to dose the 0.7 ppm a week. I don't see any added benefit of using additional iron on top of that. CSM+B uses EDTA to chelate the iron which has a half life of about 3 or 4 days, so it will hang around in the water and be available to the plants for that long. DTPA chelated iron has a half life of about 6-7 days and hangs around longer. But DTPA seems to discolor the water more frequently.

0.25 a day is 1.75 ppm a week. 2-3 ppm is the low end for micro toxicity by CSM+B from what I've seen so perhaps you were getting some inhibition from that kind of dose. I am not sure. At 0.7 ppm per week you should be able to avoid both extremes and grow healthy plants. 

If there are still problems at 0.7 ppm a week then I'd still keep that dose the same and start looking for other causes because it is very unlikely to be trace related.


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Hope it's not too much, but here's a timeline of what was happening with this Rotala over the past few months with pictures I was able to find. I think it would be easier this way.
Look at the difference between Mar 7 and Today. Mar 7 picture was taken after more then three weeks of detox, no Fe dosing at all, 2-3 water changes a week. Today's picture taken after five days of adding Fe again (0.03ppm first four days and 0.1ppm today).
P and K dosing kept the same, CO2 and light kept the same. The only difference is that I started dosing 3.25 of N daily because NO3 dropped to 10ppm due to frequent water changes and more plant mass. And added 6-7ppm of Mg during water change as I was advised.
On the other hand, after five days of Fe dosing again I can see S. Repens is improving. There's also new growth on AR mini and R. Wallichii is growing like crazy...


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Very nice set of pictures. It provides a really good history of the issue.

It seems that there is definitely something going on, but it also seems that the issue is fairly constant. Even when the plants are not getting any traces or very little they still have the same whitening of the new leaves. If it were a toxicity then the plants would return to normal. This makes me think something else is going on. Another thing which is odd is that only some plants are affected, and are only affected in a very specific way. Only the new growth is affected and basically only on the rotalas from what I can see in the picture. This makes me think more along the lines of deficiency, something along the lines of 'that specific plant isn't getting what it needs compared with the other ones.' A toxicity would affect every or almost all plants in a tank because most plants don't seem to differ hugely in toxicity resistance. Also, and even if there some plants are more resistant than others the more susceptible ones would still show signs on both new and old growth. The entire plant would be affected because the toxin would be evenly distributed in the water column and would affect the entire plant in the same way. 

Have all other conditions remained the same? Duration and intensity, distance, type of light? Dosing schedule is regular no long gaps between doses or amounts? Do you use algaecides (even "plant safe" kinds)? What is the temperature of the tank? How many fertilizer tabs do you have in the tank? And what is the substrate you are using?

It would be interesting and helpful to set up a test pot. One of those 2-3 inch plastic pots they sell at the garden store would do. If you take one of those, and fill it with regular garden soil and then plant some of the affected plants in it. If the plants recover and do well in the soil pot, then they are likely showing a nutrient deficiency. If not, perhaps a toxicity is at work.


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Zapins said:


> Have all other conditions remained the same? Duration and intensity, distance, type of light? Dosing schedule is regular no long gaps between doses or amounts? Do you use algaecides (even "plant safe" kinds)? What is the temperature of the tank? How many fertilizer tabs do you have in the tank? And what is the substrate you are using?


All kept the same, Light, CO2, P and K dosing. Only started N dosing after drop to 10ppm mostly due to frequent water changes. I'm dosing daily, macros 1h before lights on, Fe 1h after macros. Never skipped or changed this routine. No algaecides used. Only 6 drops of Excel (0.3ml/15l) almost every day. Used H2O2 once on the glass and wood. No efect on Rotala, but Pearlweed didn't like it at all.

Temp 22-24C

Substrate is porous fired clay (1-2mm fragments) with 15-20 grams of Osmocote.

Light is DIY LED cca 1000 lumen / 6500 kelvin. 5cm from the top, 25cm from the bottom of the tank. Lights running on 66% due to some GSA on the glass and on S. Repens older leaves.
Total light period is 8 hours with 1.5h rump up and down.


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## Saxa Tilly (Apr 7, 2015)

Have you considered dosing macros and traces on alternate days? Just to eliminate the off chance of iron precipitating due to P. Unlikely, but worth trying since you dose both about an hour apart.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Are you using RO water or tap water? City water or well water?

Have you ever had the water analyzed?


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## Saxa Tilly (Apr 7, 2015)

Zapins said:


> You can use pure CSM+B to dose the 0.7 ppm a week. I don't see any added benefit of using additional iron on top of that. CSM+B uses EDTA to chelate the iron which has a half life of about 3 or 4 days, so it will hang around in the water and be available to the plants for that long. DTPA chelated iron has a half life of about 6-7 days and hangs around longer. But DTPA seems to discolor the water more frequently.
> 
> 0.25 a day is 1.75 ppm a week. 2-3 ppm is the low end for micro toxicity by CSM+B from what I've seen so perhaps you were getting some inhibition from that kind of dose. I am not sure. At 0.7 ppm per week you should be able to avoid both extremes and grow healthy plants.
> 
> If there are still problems at 0.7 ppm a week then I'd still keep that dose the same and start looking for other causes because it is very unlikely to be trace related.


Interesting to read about 0.7 ppm target. 

I have independently arrived at 0.6 ppm per week as the optimal trace level in my tank. At half that level, I start noticing deficiencies after about 2-3 weeks. And at slightly higher levels, I see no benefits. At 2-3 ppm per week, I see issues with Rotala. 

YMMV.


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

In my own experience and from what I have read on other threads, Rotalas appear to be particularly sensitive to high level of dosing more than other plants. Not sure yet if that's just about high level of traces or the interactions between high levels of nutrients, but there is definitively a problem with Some species of Rotala. In my personal experience, I used to grow great Rotala Nanjenshan with almost zero dosing, and now that I dose EI it is impossible for me to make it grow, whereas all other plants thrive. Rotala Rotoundifolia instead seems to be less sensitive to this issue.


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Saxa Tilly said:


> Have you considered dosing macros and traces on alternate days? Just to eliminate the off chance of iron precipitating due to P. Unlikely, but worth trying since you dose both about an hour apart.


I did back when this whole thing started. But later with 2-3 water changes a week, daily dosing gave more sense.
And wouldn't precipitation cause the Fe to be even less toxic?

Bump:


Zapins said:


> Are you using RO water or tap water? City water or well water?
> 
> Have you ever had the water analyzed?


I'm using 100% tap water (city).

City water report from Oct 2015 I was able to find:
NO2=0mg/l
NO3=7.5mg/l (my drop test always shows 10-20ppm)
Ca+Mg=3.15mmol=17.6dGH (my drop test shows 20-23dGH)
Fe=0.016mg/l (my drop test shows 0ppm all the time)
Mn=0.007mg/l

Here's a picture from today, after 6 days of mild Fe dosing. The old two stems I think are now beyond the point of any chance to recover. All new stems of R. Colorata seem to be doing ok so far.
All other plants are benefiting from resumed Fe dosing, especially S. Repens. There's also nice new growth on AR mini and R. Indica. R. Wallichii gradually lost the overall pink hue it had (I'm guessing less light), but it's growing fast and has very nice red tops.

I think I'll continue with 0.05ppm Fe daily and see how the newly planted R. Colorata responds. If it starts to show the same sypmtoms, I may just throw it away and live with the fact that it's just not meant for this tank.

This is the very same stem of the very same plant as on the picture from Mar 7 (and all other pictures). The only thing changed between Mar 7 and today is, that I started dosing Fe on Mar 11.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

How are you dosing the iron? How many grams are you mixing in, how do you know how much you are adding (digital scale, teaspoons?). Can you walk us through the dosing process.


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Zapins said:


> How are you dosing the iron? How many grams are you mixing in, how do you know how much you are adding (digital scale, teaspoons?). Can you walk us through the dosing process.


I'm dosing EasyLife liquid ferts: Profito or Ferro. Profito when I was going for Traces/Iron mix and Ferro for Iron only.
Based on this calculator Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator I got EI daily values for 15 liter net volume of water (0.2ppm Fe). 
To reach the target of 0.2ppm Fe in 15lit. of water, I have to add 0.3ml of Ferro or 1.3ml of Profito. 1ml equals 20 drops, so I just calculate how many drops I need.
For example to add 0.2ppm of pure Fe, I have to add 0.3ml which equals 6 drops of EasyLife Ferro.

I have a spreadsheet where I calculate all my dosing the same way.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Do you have regular CSM+B? If so, it might be worth switching to that instead of the profito for a while and see if that helps. CSM+B is much more widely used and it is easier to compare results with a product that is used very often.


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## Saxa Tilly (Apr 7, 2015)

Burito said:


> I did back when this whole thing started. But later with 2-3 water changes a week, daily dosing gave more sense.
> And wouldn't precipitation cause the Fe to be even less toxic?


I used to think so too. But not necessarily. Precipitated/oxidized iron is unavailable but may still contribute to toxicity. This is what Zapins was talking about earlier with people feeling comfortable about dosing high levels of Fe gluconate, thinking it is quickly removed from the water. My thinking on this is evolving as a result of Zapins' posts. Fe DTPA is persistent, so a low dose of it may be enough to prevent issues like the one your pictures show, but not so low that plants become deficient and washed-out looking.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

Saxa Tilly said:


> I used to think so too. But not necessarily. Precipitated/oxidized iron is unavailable but may still contribute to toxicity. This is what Zapins was talking about earlier with people feeling comfortable about dosing high levels of Fe gluconate, thinking it is quickly removed from the water. My thinking on this is evolving as a result of Zapins' posts. Fe DTPA is persistent, so a low dose of it may be enough to prevent issues like the one your pictures show, but not so low that plants become deficient and washed-out looking.


far as i member there is this one member who dose 0.4ppm Fe gluconate in his tanks daily.

he is owner of this product called Mikro Spezial - Flowgrow


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Saxa Tilly said:


> I used to think so too. But not necessarily. Precipitated/oxidized iron is unavailable but may still contribute to toxicity. This is what Zapins was talking about earlier with people feeling comfortable about dosing high levels of Fe gluconate, thinking it is quickly removed from the water. My thinking on this is evolving as a result of Zapins' posts. Fe DTPA is persistent, so a low dose of it may be enough to prevent issues like the one your pictures show, but not so low that plants become deficient and washed-out looking.


But I'm not dosing high amounts at all. I'm on 1/4 of suggested EI levels.

I was able to find some information about EasyLife Fe in here Easy Life Ferro has K

Guaranteed analysis:
Soluble iron (Fe) 1.0%
Soluble iron (Fe) chelated 1.0%
Chelator DTPA 1.2%
Soluble Potassium (K2O) 0.2%
Derived from Potassium sulphate, iron sulphate
Stable at pH 3.5-7.5

Does this mean I should be ok with low (0.03 - 0.07ppm) daily dosing? Or maybe 0.1ppm every other day would be better?

Bump:


Zapins said:


> Do you have regular CSM+B? If so, it might be worth switching to that instead of the profito for a while and see if that helps. CSM+B is much more widely used and it is easier to compare results with a product that is used very often.


Unfortunatelly I don't have anything else. I can get some Flourish Comprehensive maybe, but that seems to be more/less the same.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

I think it would be valuable to switch traces and see if that helps. Flourish might be an ok alternative to CSM+B, you'd need to buy the flourish iron supplement as well. But again I think if it is possible to order CSM+B I'd go with that. It will give us the best comparison since almost everyone uses CSM+B.


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## Burito (Oct 15, 2015)

Didn't dose any micros or Fe today, but looks like it's already too late for any more experiments. Now the new stems seem to be affected as well. I'm not going to put money into Flourish ferts, they're basically the same as EasyLife. I din't see any CSM+B around here. I think I saw some Tenso Coctail, but don't know what exactly that is (currently not in stock anyway). I'm starting to see just a tiny little bit of twisting of new leaves on Pearlweed and Pogostemon Erectus, so did a 60% water change today and no Iron for next few days. Then I'll try alternate days dosing with what I got and see what happens. Is it a bad idea to dose macros in the morning and micros in the evening? Do plants need most of the nutients only when lights are on? If Easylife Ferro is DTPA it should remain stable in the water for some time.
Anyway, here's a today's picture. You can see the old and new stems. Going from deficiency straight to toxicity overnight.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

CSM+B isn't sold at pet stores. It has to be bough online. There is a member on the forum that sells it. If I remember right it costs $7-10 for an amount that will last many years, probably indefinitely for your small tank.


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

CSM+B Can be purchased from the following:

Dry Fertilizer

Planted Aquarium Fertilizer - Product Categories

Green Leaf Aquariums


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

So I wanted a add some thoughts here and reasoning: 

1. This is not a toxicity- Your water is crazy hard, most cases occur with a GH of 6 or lower, the only plant showing issues is the rotala (I would expect to see signs in other plants), you are dosing at safe levels

2. How does your water have that high of a hardness? Is your KH 1-2 or 9? Either way your city water is pretty hard. 

3. Because you're water is so hard look into the different types of iron and how they precipitate. I don't remember off the top of my head

4. What about oxygen? If you are about to gas fish at 1BPS are you creating enough surface agitation? 1BPS seems really low in any tank to gas fish.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

DTPA is quite stable in hard water and that is what he is using, i use to have very good looking similar plants while just dosing sachem brand even in my super hard water.


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## mredman (Sep 4, 2015)

*Pinholes*

A potassium deficiency is generally the reason for pinholes. I solved this problem by alternating with additional potassium nitrate and potassium sulfate. Originally, I also used potassium phosphate in the mix but my phosphate levels hit 20+ ppm. Since eliminating the supplemental Potassium phosphate, my phosphate levels have fallen to 2-4 ppm. 

Mike



Fissure said:


> Have had the same issues with all rotala species I have tried. So it seems to you to be an issue with the micros then? Wonder if it is just the FE that might be an issue or other parts of the micro solution as well.
> Looking at the calculator at rottalabutterfly the suggested target dose for micros overshoots the max of 1.4 PPm FE quite much at the end of the week overshooting to almost 3 (2.79) to be more exact. Though this is without eventual plant uptake taken into consideration. Could this be the cause of the issues?
> With your current dosage I would say it feels so small it almost looks pointless (not saying that it is in anyway though!). Might have to rethink my dosing. What do you guys think, is it enough to down the micros and keep the normal E.I levels for macros?
> According to the drop tests I have I am in the lower spectrum of the recommended E.I levels (nitrate and phosphates, I have a K test kit but haven't used it yet) even though I am dosing normal/rich yet still get pin holes in the lower part of some plants while others are growing extremely fast and not having this issue.
> GH drops down from 6-7 (tap) to 1-2 by the end of the week so I started adding GH booster recently, havent seen any real difference yet though.


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