# Another low-tech - zero water change - discus tank idea.



## cro117 (Oct 25, 2006)

i have been keeping/breeding fish in ecosystem setups for years without filtration or water changes. the disadvantage is very low bioload. since i've only ever had tanks in the 20ish area before, 55g being the largest i've ever owned, this meant fish in the 1-2" ranges. i've always considered 3" a "monster fish." i'm now setting up 240g tank with a 100-150g sump, so 350-400g total volume, and decided it was time to try my hand at discus. i'd like to get any thoughts or opinions on my setup as it's in the construction phase before it's up and operational. 

ok, so the tank will be the 350+ gallons previously mentioned 8'x2'. the filtration will be the entire setup, with deep sand beds both in the display tank and sump. aerobic bacteria will inhabit the first 2" of the sand bed, as well as any other surfaces in the tank, and anaerobic bacteria will inhabit the 2" and below area of the sand bed. i plan to mix peat into the sand bed to provide a carbon source at the initial setup, but i don't plan on "recharging" it at a later date. instead i'm hoping that the fall of detritus will be enough of a carbon source at a later date.

as far as the substrate, i plan on using a mix of play sand from home depot and natural clay kitty litter. this will be my first experience with kitty litter as a substrate so i have some concerns, but it would be way too expensive to use fluorite in the quantities i need.

in the display tank i was planing on a 1/2-1" bottom layer covered with sand, and in the sump tank i was planing of a 50/50 mix amounting to a 5"ish layer. one of my concerns is the clay chips rising enough in the substrate to cause an issue with scaleless sand dwelling species.

my next concern comes from the lighting. i was planing on using a few LED screw in bulbs. i was thinking something like 6x 1000 lumen(13w) 6500k, but i can switch that over to 5000k and add or subtract as many as are needed. being screw-ins they will be very versatile. i know they can be very effective, i've known people who use them for coral growth, i just need to dial in the proper amount of lighting for plant growth and discus happiness. 

any suggestions on lighting ideas would be great. i plan on insulating the tank as much as possible, mostly via an insulated canopy, so i'm concerned about how the lighting i chose might hold up under very high humidity.

my next concern is that i want to house a breeding colony of cherry shrimp and scuds in the sump. though i've never had scuds before so i'd have to do some more reading on them. the little i did a few years back suggested that they will eat young cherry shrimp and plants. anyway, my concern is with the return pump. my plan is to just wall off the end of the sump tank with some sort of screen mesh, but i haven't decided what would be best for this purpose. i would like it not to trap too much detritus, but at the same time not let baby shrimp through. i might have to just give in and turn it into one big mechanical filter.

and i guess lastly, i've never tanks at discus temperatures for long periods of time before, and usually my plants do very poorly when it gets above 80, even amazon swords. so if anyone has any suggestions for fast growing filter plants, such as water sprite or pennywort that will thrive in warm waters please let me know.

oh, almost forgot the most important part, lol, bioload will be a group of 6-8 discus that i will sell off till i have 2 pairs, so 4 total, i was thinking a mormyrid too since i could never have one before, and a freshwater stingray if i can find one. probably reticulated do to the small width of the tank. i've never needed algae eaters before, but i am partial to plecos, so i might have a pair of bristle noses too, but i kind of consider them just excess bioload. 

i'll probably add to that list with a few others down the road, but i cant think of anything i really care about right now. my passion and experience has always been micro fish, but with the ray, those wouldn't be great candidates. though if i don't get the ray, then there will defiantly be a few species of appistos in there

lastly, how do i do a long term build thread? do i just start it like a regular thread, or is it something different?


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## rcs0926 (Jun 14, 2013)

Sounds like an exciting project. I can't offer up any advice, but I'm looking forward to seeing you document everything. You'll probably want to create a journal in the sub-forum if you want to keep a running log of your progress.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

An interesting project - and it would be very informative to follow it's progress over several months to see how everything develops. Your planned practices seem very sound, and would likely work out well under normal aquarium conditions, and with any other species stocking.

However, if as your caption says - no water changes planned, (even with that size of tank coupled with a very low bio-load), in my view one would not expect the discus to develop to any optimum size if you don't provide at least some fresh water on an occasional basis, along with good, regular tank cleansing husbandry. 

At required discus temps, plant growth would not likely be ideal, and the production of detritus from decomposing plant matter & other wastes could over time tend to produce an unhealthy environment for the discus that would not be detrimental to most other species of fish.

Having said that, and it's certainly not meant negatively in any way, as perhaps that's not your objective in any event. One thing that is more or less a given, is that if you get full-grown mature adults of say 6" in size from the outset, they wouldn't shrink in size. 

FWIW, that's my take, but I do wish you well.


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## cro117 (Oct 25, 2006)

i'm not really worried about fish waste or even overfeeding at all, but when i said zero water changes i really meant water changes a few times a year. the setups i do never produce any nitrates, even when i add 15ppm nitrate tap water, it's gone in a matter of days, part of the reason i don't do many water changes. i do like to do the rare water change for mineral replenishment. though the discus probably wouldn't care one way or another the snails do better when the minerals are replenished. topping off with tap helps with that as well.

as far as the detritus from the plant it's all for the good of the echo system. it will break down into ammonia, easily handled by the system, and smaller particles containing carbon, the buildup in the gravel. this will fuel the denitrification cycle taking place in a healthy deep sand bed. in my smaller tanks i don't even remove dead fish or uneaten food as it fuels the echo system, resulting in a very stable healthy environment. though with something the size of an adult discus i probably would have to rethink that, lol.

i'm just worried about the temperature. a higher temp will affect the dissolved oxygen which will affect the nitrification process, but i don't really see that being a big enough issue to cause a problem


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## cro117 (Oct 25, 2006)

the thing that really has me worried at this point is the lighting/humidity. if insulate the tank as much as im planing i'm hoping i can keep in a lot of heat from escaping the tank, but when i've done this in the past with breeding betas there was a lot of humidity. like it would literally drip off every surface which i'm pretty sure the lights are not rated for.

has anyone out there tried sealing off and insulating a canopy before? would i really save that much heat trapping the evaporation in?


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## flukekiller (Jun 4, 2013)

this sounds good and i hope you succeed at it!!! my concerns:

rays are messy eaters and poop alot!! i had a reticula,, they are awesome to hand feed.
and the same goes for the discus depending on what you feed them.. if you them beef heart it will make a mess...

i have always wanted to do a filterless large FW tank but it is much different then doing a filterless SW tank...

anyways best of luck

btw,,, i kept swords in my discus tank and they thrived!!! never added co2 or any ferts! i used to keep my tank
between 85-88 degrees


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## cro117 (Oct 25, 2006)

oddly enough, i learned about mud filter sumps, aka deep sand beds, from a reef guy at the aquarium store i used to work at. i had been doing the ecosystem thing for a while before that, but i didn't understand the value of the deep sand bed till i learned about reef tanks.

as far as food, that's another thing i'd like some opinions on, though i'm guessing it will be more of a trial and error experiment. i was planing on mixing tilopia, beef heart, liver, dried krill (for fiber), cyclopies (color enhancer), and spirulina (immune enhancer) into a gelatin mix that i'll cool in one large flat sheet that i'll tear up like a fruit rollup. the food will be made with discus in mind, but i'd assume a ray would be fine with mostly the same diet. i'll also have plenty of live cherry shrimp for the ray i hope.

i'm worried that my homemade food idea sounds better in theory then practice though. does beef heart even blend?


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## flukekiller (Jun 4, 2013)

yeah,, i have made my own beef heart mixture many time,,, you just dont want to liquify it. then freeze it. there are tons of recipes online for it... beef heart does make the water water messy. i also fed them black worms,, which was cool to watch because the ones that make it to the sand and hide,the discus would just puff the sand away then suck up the worm.


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## rballi (Mar 4, 2010)

I am by no means a discus expert, so others chime in on this...I think the hormones that discus release into the water is what can also cause them to stunt...that is one of the main reasons why folks do daily water changes with juvenile discus, amongst keeping nitrates down...


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## cro117 (Oct 25, 2006)

oh, liquifying it and freezing it was sort of my plan. why is that bad. i was going to mix everything together then blend it to an almost liquified state then mix it with a gelatin and let it cool into gummy beef heart, then i was going to tear it into pieces and freeze it. i've only attempted this with a veggie food though, baby-food, spirulina, spinach etc. then chopped it into cubes and froze it. it worked ok aside from the fact that im very bad in the kitchen.

do you foresee problems with this method?


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## cro117 (Oct 25, 2006)

i read somewhere a long time ago in an argument on common fish myths about whether or not the whole fish hormone thing really exists, that the hormones if they did exist where biodegradable, and as such would break down in a large enough volume of water without causing an issue. i've always kind of bought into that school of thought and never had much of an issue with stunting. i also figure that if the water volume weren't large enough for the bioload that nitrates would build up before growth hormones leading to not only a stunting problem, but health issues during development.

so ya, i've always just figured that if the bioload started to put pressure on the environment that it would show in more obvious ways before hormones or pheromones even became an issue.

i wish i actually knew what i was talking about on this subject though rather then just old secondhand knowledge and speculation. it's just really hard finding good info on this matter, so if anyone knows a good link that would be awesome.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

My years of discus-keeping experience tell me that the plain facts of the matter are that, genetically-speaking or otherwise, discus have been proven time & again to remain healthy & thrive when receiving large, frequent doses of fresh clean water and squeaky clean tank conditions.
Anything less than that is no recipe for success.
As for beef heart mixes, imo that should be reserved solely for discus being raised/grown out in bare-bottom tanks.
Using any type of those mixes, in any other kind of tank environment, particularly without a religious tank cleansing regime after feedings, is just asking for trouble.
Discus are not difficult to keep, so long as one follows the tried & true methods of keeping them.


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## flukekiller (Jun 4, 2013)

i agree with not being difficult,, as time passed by it seemed they were easier and easier to care for... also good clean water promotes good growth, breeding and fertilization. one of my pairs of discus blue diamond high fin,, would lay eggs everytime i did a wc,, whether or not the male was interested in fert. the eggs

all in all i hope it works out for you,,, discus can get pretty expensive and i wouldnt want to see all that work to result in stunted growth..
i had one discus that never grew larger than a silver dollar.(i had him for 3 yrs and saved him from a 10 gal tank in a LFS at the time)

as for the Bh mixture you want little bits of food for the fish to eat...
all liquid will dissolve before they get a chance to eat it



discuspaul said:


> My years of discus-keeping experience tell me that the plain facts of the matter are that, genetically-speaking or otherwise, discus have been proven time & again to remain healthy & thrive when receiving large, frequent doses of fresh clean water and squeaky clean tank conditions.
> Anything less than that is no recipe for success.
> As for beef heart mixes, imo that should be reserved solely for discus being raised/grown out in bare-bottom tanks.
> Using any type of those mixes, in any other kind of tank environment, particularly without a religious tank cleansing regime after feedings, is just asking for trouble.
> Discus are not difficult to keep, so long as one follows the tried & true methods of keeping them.


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## cro117 (Oct 25, 2006)

if it works like the veggie batch i made before it shouldn't be liquid, it would be like dropping a gummy bear into the tank. well, not quite that gummy, but you get the idea, the veggie one i made was mostly liquid baby food and spirulina soup, but once gummifide it held up pretty well in the water. it's just a matter of getting it the right Constancy so that the fish can actually eat it.

and as far as the discus care, i can certainly do more water changes if it comes to it, but i don't really think that discus are above any rules of biology or chemistry. it will be fun to see just how independent i can make an ecosystem in this size tank. i just with i were better at carpentry so i could get past the stand/canopy construction phase and get a cycle going


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Hoping you journal the build! I'll be subscribed not to miss the updates! Your not the first to propose such a system yet it's still considered rebellious, (going against conventional discus management) and being such a large project I envy you. 

Based on NPT methods and the tanking experiments I've done over the last several years with reduced filtration and bioload balancing to reduce maintenance I have little doubt you can achieve your goal. I have a hard time justifying water changes based on any test or visual condition on several of my older tanking systems. 

Regarding the sump/refugium have you considered a Mattenfilter type sump design? They are easily setup and it works fantastic (imo). Over time I've converted three of my sumps to use a direct flow path through sponge panels to reduce CO2 losses and create moss/shrimp refugiums.


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## cro117 (Oct 25, 2006)

ya, im thinking i might have to use a mattenfilter, but don't they collect a lot of detritus and junk? oddly enough i actually want uneaten food and particles to settle on the bottom of the tank to fuel the denitrification process. if the waste settles in the gravel it will help feed plants and anaerobic bacteria, where if it settles somewhere else, it will just build up creating an ammonia factory, like an undergravel. 

i suppose i can always overfeed a little and clean the pad out more often so there's enough waste in the tank. or maybe if the flow is low enough they won't pic up too much. how are yours? do you have to clean them often?

oh, and a project update- turns out i am really, really, bad with woodworking. so i'm still stuck on the whole canopy thing. i'm thinking about arm or hanging lights oh the wall behind the tank, but i was hoping to insulate the canopy to reduce heat loss, maybe that wouldn't even help much. 

does anyone know a place online that has dirt cheap canopies?


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## MyMonkey (Jul 17, 2007)

rballi said:


> I am by no means a discus expert, so others chime in on this...I think the hormones that discus release into the water is what can also cause them to stunt...that is one of the main reasons why folks do daily water changes with juvenile discus, amongst keeping nitrates down...


Interesting. Had no idea! Thanks.


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## Mxx (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks for the invitation to look at your proposal and comment. I've researched certain of these aspects exhaustively, but I still have more questions than answers myself! According to my findings, my humble opinions, and some of my suspicions as well - 

I suspect the water chemistry is actually more complex than we usually get into discussing or fully understand in the hobby. Looking just at nitrates is overly simplistic perhaps, and I suspect there are a great many more complex organic molecules present, and some of which can take time to properly break down, oxidize, reduce, etc. I'm not sure however if bacteria or plants are better at dealing with these. And it depends upon how natural of a planted tank you might want to go. 

Personally, I'd hedge your bets and try a multi-faceted approach. But still, to maintain water quality, it shouldn't hurt to use ozone and/or activated carbon. Those will, respectively, chemically reduce the organic compounds to a form which plants can absorb, or just remove them, instead of having those complex molecules building up in the tank. 

I tried to read into it, and as a result don't believe in discus growth-inhibiting hormones. Nitrates, and potentially other parameters I believe can inhibit growth though. 

For a deep sand bed, I'd suggest sand with a little larger grain than play sand as you don't want to stop all water infiltration. Depending on if you want it light or dark, I'd suggest pool filter sand or like a relatively fine Black Diamond blasting sand. 

If you have burrowing fish like rays, I would separate the soil base from the capping sand with large sheets of rigid plastic knitting mesh, with say a half-inch of sand underneath that. The plants will be able to root through it, and won't get uprooted as easily. Your plant roots should help keep the substrate healthy. Malaysian trumpet snails are supposed to help with that as well. And I thought of even trying to introduce live blackworms, similar to how reefer's depend upon worms in their substrate to keep it aerated and healthy, though I'm a bit nervous about that. (Whether keeping a ray negates all that, I have no idea).

I don't know anything about kitty litter, but would personally prefer a mineralized topsoil base, supplemented with granular dolomite, potash, powdered clay, etc. The granular dolomite should help keep the substrate from acidifying over time, which would otherwise halt bacterial activity. 

Basically, to have healthy plants, a healthy tank, healthy fish, and little algae, you want to make sure the plants have as much in terms of nutrients as they can get, while the algae does not. Therefore, if you keep the nutrients under the sand, where the plants can reach them via their roots, but where it stays mostly out of the water column, then you'll have good healthy plants, little algae, and won't need to worry really about dosing nutrients in the water column daily. 

I suspect that even to keep healthy softwater fish, you want an appropriate blend of minerals in the water, (just like a reef tank), but only in much smaller amounts, including calcium, magnesium, and alkalinity. If you're not doing regular water changes, then your hardness could get depleted as organic acids produced in the system neutralizes it, causing your ph to drop which could kill your biofilter, aka old tank syndrome. I don't know what your tapwater is like, but mine is rubbish and I wouldn't want to use it directly. You could use RODI water and then remineralize it with discus buffer or similar products. That could be in your water-change water or perhaps even your top-off water, but you would want to test and monitor those parameters. You could have a bag of crushed coral and dolomite in the sump or filter, which might melt to remineralize the tank as necessary and gradually. Or, it might get covered in bacterial bio-film, and quickly stop releasing minerals. Either way, you should keep an eye on your hardness and TDS, to make sure it doesn't get out of hand.

I'd want to do DIY LED lighting myself, but if cost is paramount, then I believe that a few rows of florescent lights might be your cheapest option in terms of initial upfront price. You can also buy LED tile fixtures relatively cheap from China on auction sites nowadays, which do the job. I'm thinking that natural white LED's which are around 5000K give the best looking light and fullest spectrum for a planted tank. And if you can get a supplemental RGB strip light, then the three of those specific colours will supplement some of the gaps in the spectrum of white LED's, (such as the green specifically), while contributing a white-ish light themselves. I haven't done it yet myself, but I believe the combination should give the most natural full-spectrum look, and if the RGB strips are tune-able and dimmable, then all the better. 

I haven't thought at all about what sort of lumen you'd want to try to achieve, but I think with what you're talking about, you would be underpowered. You can have glass/plastic closing off the top of your tank, with the lighting just on or above that, which is what I have in my reef tank as well. Four LED tile fixtures as necessary for an 8' tank aren't going to be cheap regardless though.

To maintain ecological balance, you may want to look at it as having to have your light intensity and plant growth at least equal to the metabolic output of your livestock. For that reason, I wanted to have relatively intense lighting (but adjustable), and then have fast-growing floating plants. They'd shade the tank, mop up any nutrients in the water, and then I could net out half of them each week to serve as a nutrient export mechanism. If you have a sump you could do the same thing there, with different types of plants as well. Floating plants or emergent plants in sump, which can consume atmospheric CO2 would really help scrub your water in a non-limiting manner, if your tank doesn't have pressurized CO2. 

I'd do a dry start as well, to get the plants rooted and give them the upper hand over algae before you submerge them. You may then not need many algae eaters with sufficient plant growth. I like nerite snails, and I think apple snails are good as well, as they can consume and therefore recycle the cellulose in dead plant leaves. Plecos get mixed reviews, but I think bristlenose might be most suitable for you. 

I guess for heating you'll likely need at least two 300 watt heaters, with the redundancy there for safety.

If you have a large enough mattenfilter area, such as using it to separate sump compartments, then it shouldn't clog too quickly, or at most should be designed to flow over the top if clogged and needing to be rinsed. 

I would perhaps suggest using more water current than most discus keepers use, so long as the fish aren't struggling too much. That should help keep the tank, the plants, and the fish healthy. Depending upon your approach that topic is a little tricky, as fish and bacteria do best in well oxygenated water, but that might push some of the co2 out as well then. A powerhead in the tank causing water ripples across the surface would achieve the necessary oxygenation. If you have sufficiently intense lighting, then the plants should produce oxygen, though you don't want the levels swinging either from day to night. If you're using a sump in the stand, then you could light the fuge/sump on a reverse cycle? Some might suggest keeping the tank tightly covered to keep in CO2. I'm rather split on this issue, as I suspect poor oxygenation can help pathogens thrive. 

With discus, perhaps stay away from some of the deeply inbred domestic strains, and find wild strains which are a few F-generations into being tank-bred. Or a wild/domestic cross perhaps.

There are threads in various places giving lists of plants that thrive in the mid-80's temperatures in discus tanks. Have a search for those. 

If I recall correctly, 4 discus is too few, and for hierarchy/aggression issues, you're better sticking with at least six. 

I hear beefheart is too messy though for a planted tank, as too much of it is left in the water for even fast-growing plants to keep up with. And you might not be able to feed as much as some discus enthusiasts do. While if you were doing multiple daily water changes then it wouldn't be detrimental to constantly overfeed your tank in order to max out their growth. 

And do first read Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, but Diana Walstad. But take it with a grain of salt and with the view that you can hybridize that approach still, IMHO.

Best of luck, but approach it cautiously and thoughtfully!


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## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

rballi said:


> I am by no means a discus expert, so others chime in on this...I think the hormones that discus release into the water is what can also cause them to stunt...that is one of the main reasons why folks do daily water changes with juvenile discus, amongst keeping nitrates down...





MyMonkey said:


> Interesting. Had no idea! Thanks.


its not true.. never proven.. jack wattley mentioned something similar to this.. and it has morphed over time.. but that is not true.. lack of water changes is the main reason.. genetics.. also.


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## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

i was just thinking this thread would be something MXX would like. and here he was


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## cro117 (Oct 25, 2006)

i got the idea to post an ecosystem thread from reading a post from mxx, lol.

as far as the mineral balances i've pretty much been perfecting small scale testing for over 10 years now. all of my tanks are made like this, weather breeding units or quarantine. i just have never really had big tanks before, so i never had big fish.

discus behavior will be new to me, i've only observed juveniles in a pet store before, so i'll shoot for 3 pairs then. i'll start off with like 8 and find a home for those that don't pair, or hell, as long as they wouldn't bother the others i could just hang onto them too.

the beefheart thing doesn't really worry me as i overfeed the tanks anyway. basically it's like feeding the plants with fish food, and the fish are welcome to take what they like. so with a tank that size i'll probably be feeding it quite a bit. that i'll have to see when it's all setup and running.

as to my water, its actually higher in everything then i'd like. 100-150 tds at times, 7.8 ph. over time though without water changes the tds will actually climb rather then drop do to top-offs with tap water, but snail shells will deteriorate, probably do to some imbalance or depleted element. so i do replenishment water changes a few times a year. i pretty much use snails as my canaries. the whole old tank syndrome thing has never been an isue for me in the past with low bioloads. nitrification produces H+ ions as a bi-product, which is acid, but it only gets to be a problem if the bioload is high enough. if in low numbers it should just be taken care of the bicarbonates.

i never get diatomacious algaes, never need algae eaters, which is odd considering the sand i use, but i do sometimes struggle with a little hair algae. it's more of an annoyance then a problem, but i'm going to be changing a few things from my usual methods in this tank, so i'm really hoping i don't end up supporting the hair algae more. i think it's because i usualy use pretty poor lighting, which is what i might end up with this tank too, so who knows. i was looking at the 5000k too, in fact i bought some already, but didn't really like the look. 5000k don't really do much for bringing out the blues and greens of fish, so i figured i'd go with 6500k and a few incandescent to add a little red lighting for the plants, like they used to do it back in the day. the plan was bathroom vanity lights like 90% of all residential bathrooms have above the sink area. it should be 4-6 fixtures with 3x sockets a piece, so i can do some variety, with all those sockets, but mainly i was just planing on using the 4-6 bulbs my friend uses on his reef.

i still hate the idea of heaters, lol. i've heard far too many horror stories, and experienced a few myself. except when it's a 10g or 20g its not a huge deal.

my first tank was a 30g that i made every starter mistake possible. before a water change i removed my heater as suggested in a book- good idea. i didn't unplug the heater- bad idea. i picked it up off my vinyl floor where it was starting a fire- good idea. i burnt my hand and dropped it into the tank where it exploded- bad idea. somehow all the fish actually survived and we never spoke about the incident again.

i'm thinking i'll have to go with a few 300w titanium heaters with an external temp controller, but that will probably stretch my budget a little. or as a plan B, just get angels and forget the heating. the house is warm enough for angels to live and breed just fine.

i really like your idea of a mesh layer separating the gravel, and now feel flabergasted that the idea never crossed my mind. i can do a peat clay (kitty litter) mix at the bottom, separated by a mesh with sand on top. that way if a ray does did a bit too deeply he wont go lower then the sand layer. i just need to decide if i want to go with big mesh allowing me to pull plants later down the road without the roots pulling out the mesh with it, or if i want to go with something finer to insure that the clay chips never dig their way up to the surface like my fluorite always has in the past.

i can't wait to actually get started, but ideas and incites like those are why posting a thread ahead of time pays off i guess. thank you for taking a look and offering detailed advice. i look forward to seeing how your build looks when finished.


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## cro117 (Oct 25, 2006)

something kind of off topic from ecosystem builds and all, but didn't want to start a new thread for something this small. i got a 3d background at a discount because it was damaged and i was wondering if anyone had any insights as to touchups. from my reading i have only found krylon fusion spray paint. so i was thinking of spraying it into a cup and using a brush. 

has anyone tried this or worked with this product? does anyone know of a better way to do touch up. i'd just need a bit of grey, maybe greyish green, and a bit of black to dab over it to blend. i don't want to spray the whole thing though, or coat with something that might make the finish in the touchup area look odd.


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## Mxx (Dec 29, 2010)

Well do be careful trying what I was considering, for I haven't tested it myself!!!

And yes, Warlock, I got a message from the OP directing me to his thread, so thanks for thinking of me!

To summarize, there are a few potential pitfalls and things to be concerned about in terms of water quality.

- Mineral and trace element balance
- Acidification
- TDS buildup
- Organics buildup
- Nitrogen buildup
-Dirt buildup
-Oxygenation
-CO2

For nutrient export I would be relying on culling fast growing plants. For oxygenation, decent flow. As the system secondary to the plants for organics and other substances, I would rely on ozone and carbon. For dirt, you could use an Eheim vacuum to keep things looking tidy. For algae control, use plant growth with an enriched substrate. And I suspect the bacteria in a decent biofilter help to complete the cycle and process organic compounds into a form which plants can utilize, which the ozone would help achieve as well. 

The messier the food you use (such as beefheart), and the more of it you feed, the greater the amount of plant growth and biofiltration capacity you will however require. And you need to make sure you get the right proportion of plant growth to your bioload, while erring on the side of excess plants. 

Your biofiltration bacteria will consume oxygen, and there will naturally only be a limited supply of CO2 for your plants. So if you're doing low-tech, then your plant growth without dosing CO2, then your plants might not be able to absorb and keep up with the production of nutrients from our fish, and produce oxygen either. So getting the carbon dioxide and oxygen balance right is important, though much less so if you can rely for instance on using emergent plants in your sump. 

Reefers use 4-5 inches of sand for their DSB's, but that is with sand which is coarser. Playsand and a soil underlay will have less water percolating through, so it might be advisable to stay in the 3-4" range of depth instead, unless you can get sand the grain size of pool filter sand.

To maintain mineral balance/trace element levels and TDS levels appropriately, I had in any case decided I should plan to set up a reservoir with a Kati-Ani DI filter to which via an overflow I could periodically divert tank water to be deionized and then remineralized with a supplement. So that's the equivalent of doing water changes, except that I'd be using tank water so my DI resin might last longer than it would with my tank water. But I would be doing this to maintain mineral and trace levels, (as reefers do), not to control nitrates, and not every day or week.You also never really know what is in your tapwater or the air in your house, which is why carbon filtration is a good idea.

I would also suggest quarantining and carrying out a comprehensive treatment of medicines on any fish before they would be going in the tank. 

As for plants and the mesh, you could just cut the roots off over the rigid mesh or just rip the plants out if you need to move or remove them. The roots left in place will just decompose and return their nutrients to the substrate, and the plants should be able to grow more roots again if replanted. 

Here is a relevant video as well - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqdrtVYBQDY


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## Matsnork (Jun 3, 2013)

Nice project. I´ve heard that it´s important to use a coarse enough substrate to allow deep penetration of oxygen for maximum (deepest possible) bacteria growth. 

A lfs here in Sweden only keep low tech (no tech really) aquariums using a special clay substrate that is basically kitty litter just bigger grains. Sounds a bit like the thing you call flourite, but cheaper. 

Can´t remember the name of this substrate though and I´ve never tried it myself since it´s not very visually pleasing with a brick red substrate imho.


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## Mxx (Dec 29, 2010)

Oh, forgot to mention the other big question mark, namely discus growth. For some reason, many say young discus don't grow as big in planted tanks. It's still not clear to my why, whether physical, psychological, etc. Maybe the discus just tend to be more content, more relaxed, less neurotic, and therefore happen to stress-eat less! Or maybe some of them instead happen to hide more and come out to eat less. Maybe it's that the hobbyists are not feeding them as heavily, as they're not expecting to dump out half their water twice a day, akin to slopping pigs with trough-fulls of constant food to fatten them up. Or maybe it has something to do with some phenomenon of organic chemistry ecology which I can't seem to find evidence of or wrap my head around...

I'd even thought about purchasing a batch of 3"-4" adolescent discus, and splitting it to raise to adulthood half in a bare tank with a drip water water supply, and the rest in a proper planted tank, to see which proves to have better vitality, colour, and growth, and then selling whichever group were least impressive, in order to hedge my bets.


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## cro117 (Oct 25, 2006)

i've always used playsand in the past, it seems permeable enough, as long as water will pass through diffusion will take care of the rest. i never even use water flow. in reef people often use the mud, which is actually considerably finer then sand, or sugar fine aragonite, which is fine as far as permeability, though not so good with other aspects. i've only ever heard of deep courser sandbeds like rubble for growing scuds and mysis. i'll have to check this out more. i'm still leaning towards sand as for me it's tried and true, but poolfilter sand shouldn't stretch my budget and after all, a new tank is for trying new things.

as far as the CO2 and oxygen i've never really concerned myself with them. it's sort of an out of sight out of mind deal. i'm sure my plants could benefit more if i actually dosed extra CO2 sometime, but that's never really been a concern of mine. my plants don't turn yellow or have many dead leaves, and they grow at a decent enough rate. they don't pearl often or grow as fast as they could i'm sure, but really all i need them for is to look nice, oxygenate my water, and take care of nitrates/phosphates.

i read somewhere once that all you need to take care of the needs of plants is like 1" of fish for a 50gal. rules like that generally aren't very helpful as it doesn't tell you how many plants, or how much waste/CO2 that 1" of fish is producing, but when i was starting out it helped me realize that one fish will produce a lot of CO2 and ammonia for plant use, so i never really felt the need to does CO2 before. and of course as a fallback there's always duckweed. it takes most of it's gas exchange from atmospheric air anyway, so it's never deprived.

as far as the meshing goes. i was thinking that if i uprooted a 2' sword plant or something it's roots would wreck a lot of havoc on any soil layering and thin mesh. where if it where like a thick plastic with 1/2" spacing the roots would probably break away without lifting the while sand bed. i'm not sure, i've always just sort of mixed my substrates up anyway, 1:4 fluorite to sand and never really cared, but with this tank i really don't want the fluorite chips exposed.

as far as the hormones and pheromones. i read an article on ebscohost about it once, but it was really long and boring, so i mostly skimmed through it. it talked mostly about small stagnant water sources though where fish will breed in large numbers, like killies and i recall something about perches being mentioned, a family i don't know much about) and mostly it was about controlling the sex of the fry, though there was mention of growth inhibition. what i took from the article though, was that with most fish it's probably not an issue, and any hormones/pheromones should be biodegradable. so in small enough numbers, it's all just proteins breaking down anyway, like with slime coat or anything else. 

i'm watching the video now.


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## cro117 (Oct 25, 2006)

sweaden...psh. here in america we use coarse colored gravel to trap food so our fish don't get obese, and all our systems are connected in one big unit, so that if one fish is healthy and happy, he will spread his health and happiness to all the other fish in the neighboring units. we also use very advanced filtration systems. i won't so into the details much, but we utilizes these amazing "bio" balls. it's all very sifi. top it all off with a neon skull and vestigial bubbler, and you have one amazing tank.

if you can't tell, im not a fan of american fishkeeping, lol. we're so far behind the rest of the world. it's a cultural thing though, it's like photography with a disposable camera. everyone has an aquarium, but far far far too few actually care about the hobby.


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## cro117 (Oct 25, 2006)

i found the part where he said i "could tell you whats in there, but then i'd have to kill you" funny, because at the store i worked at we used our own mud, and when i was told what was in it, i was sworn to secrecy too, lol.

great video, it was good to see that he kept his discus at strong lighting without ill affects. i was nervous about too much lighting stressing the fish. i always have floating plants, and i usually use a folded piece of paper on one side of the tank for fish who want shade, but it would still be a fair amount of light.


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## Matsnork (Jun 3, 2013)

cro117 said:


> sweaden...psh...


I´d say it´s about the same over here and frickin all over the world. Had to fight my girlfriend not to buy a plastic castle for our first tank :icon_eek:


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## Mxx (Dec 29, 2010)

So Cro117, have you decided how your tank will or will not follow the low-tech/el naturale/etc methods? 

If not designed carefully, you might lose a lot of the naturally produced CO2 for example, if your overflow and plumbing to your sump have a lot of turbulence. And a fully enriched soil underlay is usually recommended in such setups as well, as otherwise it might take a while for the substrate to 'charge', which might then be an unhealthy time for the plants and subsequently the fish meanwhile?

I had myself concluded that I'd be planning to run a hybridized mix of low-tech and high-tech practices.


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## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

cro117 said:


> great video, it was good to see that he kept his discus at strong lighting without ill affects.


Just remember that tank is a display tank with discus in it that are put in at adult size to sell. He is not keeping them long term in there. He even mentions that it is best to grow out and breed in bare bottom tanks. He shows his breeding and growout setup in the video as I recall. 

I'm definitely interested in your endeavour but am definitely a skeptic. I would like you to succeed but have my doubts 


sent from an undisclosed location using morse code


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## cro117 (Oct 25, 2006)

well the main thing i'm worried about with enriched soil, and generally pampering the plants in general, is balance. if i do too much for the plants needs then when i neglect it later down the road it might make for too many unhealthy plants. usually my practice is a few fish and a few plants and let the plants grow into the bioload. so aside from the addition of iron through the kitty liter i think i am just going to go with the simplistic sand.

as for water flow i'll probably go pretty low to save on expense, maybe a 2-4 turnover per hour. as far as the nitrogen cycle is concerned i'm a big believe in just letting diffusion do most of the work. mostly these are unheated tanks though, so who knows what i'll need as far as flow with a heater. ugh...i'm still toying with the idea of nixing the discus and going with something that can live with the mid 70s range. i just am kind of set on discus at this point to prove that they can survive the brutal horrors of a planted ecosystem setup.

but ya, i figure i'll just keep things as close to my other tanks as i can so i'm not hit with any big surprises. as far as seeding the tank, i was considering getting a couple of endlers and letting them breed out of control for a while before introducing the discus. that way they will establish a cycle, and possibly a food source. but i'm not sure fish would contain all the vitamins needed, and it might be hard to get discus onto other foods with an endless supply of live. 

lighting is still up in the air, but i asked about the lighting i was thinking about in another forum, so i might get more insight into that soon.

ugh, i don't know where i'm going to get enough java moss to start the tank off, usually in my 10s i use a pinch and it takes like a year or 2 to fill out. with a 240 it might not fill out in my lifetime, lol. 

first step in my plan though is to actually apply for a part time job at a LFS so i can actually get a canopy at wholesale price. unfortunately most places don't care if you know fish or not. 

oh, i'll also try to take some pics of my current systems, though they aren't much to look at since i've pretty much been out of the hobby for 5 years now. they are just systems that where easier to top off with water then tear down. i also need to start a journal thread or something for my project. but i figure i'm going to focus on the biology and not the DIY aspect, so no point starting it till i start laying the substrate. i don't think anyone wants to hear about my failures with power tools.


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## cro117 (Oct 25, 2006)

most of the time though "growout" conditions are for dense stocking. i'm not sure how or why discus might differ, but they will have almost 100g per fish. unless they like seeing their reflection at the bottom of the tank as they grow i just don't get it i guess. 

i have done the whole bare bottom growout thing before when i was breeding copper betas, but that was like 50 fish for a 50g tank, and i was thankful i didn't have gravel every day when i did a water change, but i haven't seen many situations that called for that since. then again, i only ever took care of small discus in a petstore setting, so this will be a new adventure and learning experience. 

i also still might not heat the tank, so the discus thing isn't set in stone. if i can find some nice blue pinoy paraiba angels i might just go that rout. people have been telling me for so long though that i should do discus or a nice reef tank since i helped setup so many, but i've never had the money to do anything too extravagant.


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## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

cro117 said:


> most of the time though "growout" conditions are for dense stocking. i'm not sure how or why discus might differ, but they will have almost 100g per fish. unless they like seeing their reflection at the bottom of the tank as they grow i just don't get it i guess.


Discus are well discus, now sure why they are different but they are, to a point. It's not an American thing it how discus are grown out and kept around the world. You can have success using alternative methods but the proven methods are proven for a reason. You can say whatever you want about how easy of a time you will have and how discus will thrive in your tank but until the rubber meets the road all you have is an unproven hypothesis. 

You never did say what size discus you were going to start off with. If you want 2 pairs I would just buy 2 pairs from a sponsor over at simply discus. You will need to start off with more that 8 fish to get 2 pairs. Also take into account the fish that will die as you get along the learning curve. I don't know many new discus keepers that have not killed a few fish their first go around.


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## cro117 (Oct 25, 2006)

i always prefer to get fish young and let them grow in the system since most seem to adapt better to new environments when they are younger, so my original plan was a group of quarter size or something, but i might go with the 2" if it really is a better idea. i need to do more research closer to the time. right now everything is in the "OMG big tank, what should i do with it?" phase.

and i wouldn't exactly call my methods an unproven hypothesis, rather i would call them 10 years of lab testing with both fresh and reef, now awaiting discus trials.

another thought for the tank, which is also something i've always wanted to do, is make a true ecosystem, where i would completely cover the entire tank with saran wrap and let it completely survive on it's own, but it's a living room tank, so i thought i'd go with something more eye pleasing, and discus are definitely a lot less money then reef.


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## cro117 (Oct 25, 2006)

ok, here's an example of the mature soil you can get from sand over time. there is fluorite mixed in too and that's mostly what you see on the surface, but it's mostly just playsand. you also have to forgive the messiness of the glass and snails, like i said, i haven't done much with my tanks in a few years. that's why the vals are taking over the front of the tank. there's no algae on the glass, but there are plenty of water spots.










here's a pic of my 20g setup where i'm breeding galaxy rasboras. the parents are feeding off the young too much though, so i'm probably going to have to move them into a 10 that's setup and housing a couple of red eyes. i know there's nothing special about red eye tetras, but im partial to them because they where among my first fish. this tank is a bit less mature, or rather, it hasn't had fish in it for a long time till just recently.











and just a slightly better pic of the celestials. it's hard to get a pic unless they are feeding. and i am very very bad at getting good pics.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/pHosting.php?do=show&type=f&id=30193&title=2013-06-22_142058c.jpg


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