# De-rimming a 20 gallon long



## RipariumGuy (Aug 6, 2009)

I would say that it would be to large. You might be able to do it if you kept the bodem rim, and/or you only filled the tank half way.


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## tharsis (Oct 9, 2009)

Yeah that is what I thought, I have done it to 10 gallons but the 20 seems a bit too big. 

Are there any success stories out there though?


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## Mikaila31 (Mar 28, 2010)

IDK about the saftey of it, but I picked a 20 gal high off the side of the road a month ago. It was missing half of its bottom rim for some odd reason.... so I removed the rest. Its top rim is also cracked on all four corners. It sat outside on a few layers of cardboard for 3 days and passed the leak test. I haven't set it up with anything. And just cuz its leak proof doesn't mean it will stay that way. 

Maybe you could try attaching a glass or silicon cross beam on it. Kinda like 55gals have to support the side panes.


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## bigboij (Jul 24, 2009)

ive always wanted to try to derim a larger tank and use a thin stainless steel cable to make a rimless yet supported top i think it could be done to pull of a nice look


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## Makoto (Mar 23, 2009)

I did it to the 29 gal i had and it turned out fine, so you shouldn't have no problems.


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## AquaDean (Nov 20, 2009)

I think you'd be okay taking the rim off a 20 long. The tank isn't so deep as to add a bunch of pressure. The front an back my bow a bit but I bet they do with the rim on also.


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## tharsis (Oct 9, 2009)

Great looking tank Makoto.

Yeah Aquadean I agree, I wouldn't think the bowing is really a concern, it would be more the silicon seals completely failing. I think I will try it out and silicon some small plexiglass braces on the corners for good measure.


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## demosthenes (Aug 23, 2008)

would all of these answers also apply to de-rimming a 10g?


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## farmhand (Jun 25, 2009)

tharsis said:


> I think I will try it out and silicon some small plexiglass braces on the corners for good measure.


Can Plexiglas be mounted to glass? How?


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## Mikaila31 (Mar 28, 2010)

I would assume just regular old silicon would work. I know some people do that for paludariums to create a water proof divider. I've siliconed rocks to plastics before and rocks to rocks. I don't see why plexiglass to glass should be an issue. The real question is if it will hold and stop the tank from bowing or just pop off when you fill it.


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## AquaDean (Nov 20, 2009)

I really doubt that you will need to reinforce the corners at all. If you want a better feeling of security leave the bottom rim on and just take the top one off. You'd hardly notice it once you have the tank set up. A side seam on a tank of this depth blowing out would probably have about the same odds as getting hit by lightning. Silicone is a lot tougher than people give it credit for.


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## brohawk (May 19, 2008)

Makoto, how long did you/ have you had the 29 running rimless?

To the OP, I've read many reports from tpt members running 20 longs rimless top and bottom for 2 - 3 years w/ still no issues. Most agree and are comfortable w/ derimming anything up to 20 gals, thus why I'm curious about Makoto's experience.


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## Makoto (Mar 23, 2009)

Year plus on uneven floor and still held firm (1/2" inch off to the side, see pic) just recently broke it down main reasons being i need to find a new place, along with the lights its now waiting for a buyer, I've also heard black silicone is much more stronger than regular clear, when i get back into the hobby i am going to just build an entire tank from scratch with GE silicone and Starphire glass. 

Personally hideous black rims are disgusting, regret purchasing and will never again, i think all aquarist should stay clear, pay extra for a euro style rimless or build your own.


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## brohawk (May 19, 2008)

Cool, thanks for the update. Afraid I've got clear silicone and have heard similar rumors. Anyway, couldn't agree w/ you more and continue to regret my purchase as well...


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## mgdmirage (Mar 30, 2009)

20L should be perfectly fine without the rim, the regular rims don't do much of anything anyway. Only the ones that have a center brace should you absolutely not remove!

I had a 29 gallon without a rim and ran it for 2 years like that with no problems at all I even ran it to the brim. A 20L is so shallow it should be fine.


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

tharsis said:


> Great looking tank Makoto.
> 
> Yeah Aquadean I agree, I wouldn't think the bowing is really a concern, it would be more the silicon seals completely failing. I think I will try it out and silicon some small plexiglass braces on the corners for good measure.


Yeah about that. Plexi Glass and Silicone don't bond well. It may work as a divider but as far as making a support out of it its not going to work. You will have to use glass if you feel the need to add supports to the tank as that is where you will get a decent bond.

Craig


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## TeamTeal (Mar 31, 2010)

does this apply to small bowfronts?
dunno exactly how many gallons it is, but less then 20 for sure


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## tharsis (Oct 9, 2009)

Craigthor said:


> Yeah about that. Plexi Glass and Silicone don't bond well. It may work as a divider but as far as making a support out of it its not going to work. You will have to use glass if you feel the need to add supports to the tank as that is where you will get a decent bond.
> 
> Craig


OK thanks for the tip...I think I am feeling confident enough now anyways to remove the top rim without any extra reinforcement.


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## bigboij (Jul 24, 2009)

mgdmirage said:


> 20L should be perfectly fine without the rim, the regular rims don't do much of anything anyway. Only the ones that have a center brace should you absolutely not remove!
> 
> I had a 29 gallon without a rim and ran it for 2 years like that with no problems at all I even ran it to the brim. A 20L is so shallow it should be fine.


this is what ive heard, if it has a centerbrace de-rimming not a good idea, no center brace your clear to remove it.


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## brohawk (May 19, 2008)

Hey mgdmirage, was your 29 regular clear siliconed AGA/Aqueon?


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## mgdmirage (Mar 30, 2009)

Clear silicone O'dell 29. Original silicone so was prob 15+ years old.


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## mgdmirage (Mar 30, 2009)

Tanks this small there is little to absolutely no way of a properly siliconed tank seam to pull apart. Silicones bond to GLASS is incredibly strong and tanks of this size barely even get close to reaching its strength, your glass would shatter first before seam gives way.


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## AquaDean (Nov 20, 2009)

mgdmirage said:


> Tanks this small there is little to absolutely no way of a properly siliconed tank seam to pull apart. Silicones bond to GLASS is incredibly strong and tanks of this size barely even get close to reaching its strength, your glass would shatter first before seam gives way.


+1 I agree completely!


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## tharsis (Oct 9, 2009)

So quite coincidentaly, I found a 20 long already derimmed for free off of craigslist. Both the top and bottom rims were removed BUT there is a big crack in the bottom panel (which is why it was free). 

OK now it is time to hijack my own thread...I want to replace the bottom cracked panel partly to save money on buying a new tank and also to practice siliconing a tank. Is it suitable/possible to remove the bottom panel while leaving the 4 sides siliconed? Could I then add the bottom piece and reseal it? 

Also, while I was cleaning the tank out, I sliced my finger on the rim, how can I soften the edges of this thing?


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## mgdmirage (Mar 30, 2009)

Yeah you can take out the bottom pane with patience and a razor blade(not much fun). Not sure on the edge softening i had inquired about it awhile back but never got any real answers. 

Yeah i learned a long time ago to only remove the top rim, i removed the bottom and top on a 10 gallon awhile back and the bottom cracked. If you must have both removed you need to have the tank on a perfectly weight distributed surface like a Styrofoam pad.

I'm not sure how the 20 gallons are layed out, is the bottom glass on the bottom of the 4 side panes or in between them?


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## tharsis (Oct 9, 2009)

The 4 side panes are resting directly on the bottom one...so it doesn't seem terribly difficult (he says that now). 

I think once I have it replaced I will glue a thin foam pad to the underside in order to help with the weight distribution like you suggested.


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## farmhand (Jun 25, 2009)

tharsis said:


> ...how can I soften the edges of this thing?


Others would also like to know. Interested in derimming the top of a 20 long.


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## brohawk (May 19, 2008)

farmhand said:


> Others would also like to know. Interested in derimming the top of a 20 long.


Some have used a wet sharpening stone w/ good results.


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## Chasintrades (Oct 11, 2009)

Now, would you derim a 40 breeder (since there is no support brace)?


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## mgdmirage (Mar 30, 2009)

Just remember that even though the tank is getting bigger you really aren't using much more silicone. While its incredibly strong its hard to know for sure of it's limits. Quite a few of the rimless aquarium manufacturers use a different type of silicone that is supposed to be way stronger.

I wouldn't recommend de-rimming anything larger then the tanks mentioned although i think a 40 breeder would be fine it's still getting more risky.


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## mgdmirage (Mar 30, 2009)

tharsis said:


> The 4 side panes are resting directly on the bottom one...so it doesn't seem terribly difficult (he says that now).
> 
> I think once I have it replaced I will glue a thin foam pad to the underside in order to help with the weight distribution like you suggested.


Ok it will be easier to remove then, and you should use the method i mentioned about resting it on some sort of cushion that distributes the weight evenly(better safe than sorry).


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## tharsis (Oct 9, 2009)

Thanks for the help mgdmirage, 

I was just trying to take the bottom pane off and its not as easy as I thought. I scraped all the visible silicon off with a razor blade so that all that is left is whats between the connection of the two panes. I thought I would be able to jam the blade between the two panes to break the seal but I can't seem to get it.

Should I just try harder or is there a trick to getting it off now?


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## FSM (Jan 13, 2009)

if the bottom panel is already cracked you don't need to be gentle with it.


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## mgdmirage (Mar 30, 2009)

You will need to slide the razorblade between the pane and the sides all the way through. That seal is the strongest and most important seal on a tank. Just becareful not to get cut up in the process. Once the bead between the panes is broken you should beable to slowly pry off the bottom glass.


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## tharsis (Oct 9, 2009)

phiew I got it off, as per FSM's suggestion I was not gentle in trying to get the blade between the panels. Once it was in I used a hammer to gently tap it all the way around, not too hard once I got in the rhythm. It broke into several pieces making a bit of a mess though. 

Next step is to get the new panel and attach it tomorrow.


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## farmhand (Jun 25, 2009)

FSM said:


> if the bottom panel is already cracked you don't need to be gentle with it.


Beat it Beat it!:bounce:


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## mgdmirage (Mar 30, 2009)

Nice, make sure you scrape off all the old silicone and clean off the surface with rubbing alcohol. Most important make sure you put a good bead between the bottom pane and the sides.


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## Guns286 (Sep 17, 2009)

As far as de-rimming goes, would it be worth it to run an extra bead of silicone along the 4 joining points?


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## mgdmirage (Mar 30, 2009)

Not needed in these smaller tanks, your glass would most likely break before the silicone pulls away. Also you would have to do that as you are first siliconing the tank as silicone does not like to adhere to itself once it's been set.


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

not to re-hijack this hijack but I asked about cutting the top brace off a 65g and the answer was NO!!! But taking the whole rim off a 40b? If you do it then I am cutting out my center brace.


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## tharsis (Oct 9, 2009)

I don't know, the 65 has almost %40 more water than the 40b and is 8 inches deeper, which leads to a great deal more pressure. There is an exponential increase in pressure with increased volume and depth so it could lead to catastrophic failure. 

My first large tank I bought was a 55 gallon and it was missing the center brace, I was unawares at the time that this could be a problem because I was new to the hobby. So I brought it home and filled it up, and the next day I noticed a good 2 inches of bowing in the front, it never broke but it scared the crap out of me, enough to jury rig a center brace. 

You can try it but it seems like a very risky maneouver, and you would be putting a lot of faith in the people that siliconed your tank.


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

Ok, so heres an innovative idea...why cant someone design a light with the legs on the front/back side of the tank to be used as a support bracket so we can have our rimless tanks and good lighting of any size? 
As for my previous post.. If this guy is going to take the whole rim off a 40g and doesnt spill it, then im cutting the centerbrace out of my 65g. Theyre the same footprint but having a rim should make up for the pressure of the extra height. I got an extra MH light in it because 1 centered causes a huge shadow. A 55 is long and seems like it would allow for more bow in the glass whereas a 65 is 36" and seems preet darned stout. And I have a full hood to help support it. I would like to add the other light to another tank and see this guy cut the rim offf his 40g. If his wife dont divorce him over 40g on the floor, mine wont over 65, lol.


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## FSM (Jan 13, 2009)

are the glass thicknesses the same?


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## mgdmirage (Mar 30, 2009)

I guess it depends on the thickness of the glass on the 65, but it's all about height that makes the glass need to be thicker on a tank typically. 

A 40 gallon breeder has far less pressure on the sides then a 65 gallon does. When building a tank you can get away with pretty thin glass if you are making a short tank but soon as you start adding any height you gotta thicken the glass.


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## brohawk (May 19, 2008)

A quick google search for "Aqueon center brace" would tell you that the braces are in fact structural--1st hit is Aqueon's FAQ page.

40Bs don't have center braces, though prior to Marineland/Aqueon/others merging, apparently some did.

Here's some good info straight from Aqueon too, though not what I'd prefer to hear. Same time, you can find 10 x as many posts from people who supposedly talked w/ a former Aqueon plant manager/rep saying that their unbraced rims are purely aesthetic.


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## mgdmirage (Mar 30, 2009)

One sure way to see if your center brace is needed is to move it before you fill it. It will be somewhat loose and movable, now fill it up and see if it's tight. If it's tight it is obviously bearing a load and should not be removed. I never recommend removing a center brace however.

The standard injection molded frames(non center braced) do a very poor job of stopping bow and in smaller tanks the silicone seal is plenty strong enough to survive without it.


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## farmhand (Jun 25, 2009)

mgdmirage said:


> The standard injection molded frames(non center braced) do a very poor job of stopping bow and in smaller tanks the silicone seal is plenty strong enough to survive without it.


How clean looking can you get the rim once the frame is removed. Frame less would look nice, but not all gunked up.


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## tharsis (Oct 9, 2009)

I just finished cleaning the gunk off of the 20 long and it cleans up real nice. I just scraped it off with alot of razor blades (they get dull quickly) and then rubbed the area down with rubbing alcohol to get rid of the remainder...looks really good actually.


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## mgdmirage (Mar 30, 2009)

farmhand said:


> How clean looking can you get the rim once the frame is removed. Frame less would look nice, but not all gunked up.


With patience you can make it look like there was never silicone there. It just takes lots of razorblades and make sure you keep the glass wet otherwise you may scratch and haze the glass. If you still can't get that last little bit off get some rubbing alcohol and rub it roughly with a towel and it should take the rest off.


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## tharsis (Oct 9, 2009)

So I finally finished attaching the bottom panel and cleaning all the excess epoxy from the derimming. I found that dipping the razor blade in the alcohol help alot to get the last little bit of silicone off. 

Here are some pics...





























I decided to redo all the seals on the vertical panels, since I was doing the bottom ones anyways. It went OK for my first silicone job, I made a real mess but it was easy to clean up. I left some mess on the bottom panel since it is going to be covered with substrate anyways. 

I think my biggest mistake was not laying a thick enough bead, so I had to go over it twice, which made a big mess.

I am testing it for leaks right now, and as soon as my mineralized top soil is done, I am going to start the fun part.


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## bigboij (Jul 24, 2009)

what size is that tank? it looks way bigger than a 20long


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## tharsis (Oct 9, 2009)

no it's a 20 long...

maybe it looks so massive because there are no rims :biggrin:


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## farmhand (Jun 25, 2009)

tharsis said:


> no it's a 20 long...
> maybe it looks so massive because there are no rims :biggrin:


If that is how a 20 long looks like after the rim is removed, I'm taking my rim off a 20 long. I like a 20 long size.


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## AoxomoxoA (Apr 22, 2010)

How's the rimless? Any more success stories? I want to do this:bounce:Got a 20L sitting here...


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## tharsis (Oct 9, 2009)

It is still filled with water and sitting in the same spot... going on a couple weeks now I guess. I am waiting for my MTS to finish doing its thing before setting it up.

So it looks good to go, I say do it and post your results here


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## Splendid Splendens (Dec 22, 2010)

I took the (top&bottom) rim off a 30 long and it held water fine. Gave it away, but as far as I know it still works.


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## nalu86 (Oct 19, 2010)

I will take the top rim of my 55 when I redecorate the tank.
I will glue in some glas plates as support.
I'm sure this will work!


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## tylergvolk (Jun 17, 2012)

I just picked up a Aqueon 20G Long and I want to de-rim the aquarium because the look of the de-rimmed tank versus the regular is WAY better.

I wonder if I can get away with taking both the bottom rim and the top rim off?...


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## starrlamia (Jul 31, 2012)

tylergvolk said:


> I just picked up a Aqueon 20G Long and I want to de-rim the aquarium because the look of the de-rimmed tank versus the regular is WAY better.
> 
> I wonder if I can get away with taking both the bottom rim and the top rim off?...


Should be fine. As long as it doesn't normally have a brace it should be ok. I was the opposite, got a 20l used that was rimless top and bottom and added top trim back on so I could use a glass top. 

Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2


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## tylergvolk (Jun 17, 2012)

After doing some research, I'm getting the feeling that taking the top rim offonly is the safer way to go, but taking both the top and the bottom rims off might be too risky.

Never the less, I'm going to take a walk on the wild side and see what happens. Life is just to short! No risk, no reward!

=)


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

I've got a 20L that's been in operation since 08/23 of last year....0 issues at all. Very slight bow but that's about it. No leaks etc. The seams look like crap due to algae but I'm too lazy to de-rim another one...I'll just stick with something fancy next time. :hihi:


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## tylergvolk (Jun 17, 2012)

freph said:


> I've got a 20L that's been in operation since 08/23 of last year....0 issues at all. Very slight bow but that's about it. No leaks etc. The seams look like crap due to algae but I'm too lazy to de-rim another one...I'll just stick with something fancy next time. :hihi:


I looked thru your 20g long journal. Nice work! What did you set your aquarium on after taking off both the top and bottom rims. What I mean is, did you put anything between the aquarium and the stand?


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

tylergvolk said:


> I looked thru your 20g long journal. Nice work! What did you set your aquarium on after taking off both the top and bottom rims. What I mean is, did you put anything between the aquarium and the stand?


Quite literally a piece of 1/2" thick particle board that's laminated on both sides when the dresser started to sag on the top. I'll be redoing it Thursday and I bought an ADA Garden Mat for it. But, as far as something to level it out and cushion the plain glass from the dresser...no. Silicone and glass is pretty strong stuff.


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## e.lambert (Jul 21, 2012)

So, I guess I just over looked it or I am over thinking it. But how would you take the rim off of the tank?


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## tylergvolk (Jun 17, 2012)

I took the top rim off my 20G Long today. Took about 30 minutes. I used a razor blade with a handle. I had to muscle it off but I finally got it off. It also helped to cut the black plastic rim in each corner in order to relive the pressure of me pulling at it. I found out for myself today that this is just as hard as everyone says it is. Good thing I am a house rehaber and these types of jobs come easy for me.

I am debating whether or not to attempt to remove the bottom rim. The top was a pain in the... Also, I have to get the remaining junk off the top rim. I wonder how I will do that... I want that clean finished look. WD40 + Razor?

I'm guessing that I am going to have to sand down the top of the rim. There are places where it didn't come off clean. Meaning, it chipped away in places.

Freph, I ask because I am debating to take of bottom off and I wondered if it needed some extra type of support. Thanks for your inspiration. I am on my way. :icon_smil


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