# 80 Gallon High Tech Planted Tank



## JerrySingh (Aug 15, 2015)

looks like it's gonna be an awesome build


From hobby to addiction


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Captain's Log, 10/25/16- Finally got the wood all mossed up and arranged. The plan is to run the tank barebottom on low-light mode until the plants arrive in two weeks or so, at which time I'll add the substrate and plants together. Oh yeah, I'll be adding the pair of Ecotech Radion XR15FW pendants at the same time. <3

Current specs:
Light- 2x 24w T5HO 12 hrs/day with an additional two on for 8 hrs/day. The fixture's hanging 18" above the surface and the bulbs are old so there's not a whole lot of PAR getting to the tank. Since it's just Java Fern that's ok with me.
CO2- 8 bubbles/sec with pH at approximately 6.7 and KH of 4 dKH.
Ferts- 12ppm NO3 and 1.5ppm PO4 1x/wk. This may get increased if needs dictate.

A little bit has changed since the original build in Alabama. I've shortened the return outlet so it's closer to the surface and removed most of the hard plumbing. The venturis worked well, but either drained the CO2 tank way too fast or reduced output flow too much for my liking. This time around I decided to go with straight up vinyl tubing for simplicity and to conserve CO2/flow as much as possible. I also changed the impeller running the CO2 from a standard to fractionating model to get better chopping of the CO2 prior to it being pumped to the reactor. It's working very well so far. One of the domestic online retailers had them on clearance for $5, which was a major bonus.

Now, on to the pictures! Please forgive the poor quality, I've got a crap phone



















Another gratuitous shot of the nano reef:



Thanks for watching,
Phil


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## Brian Rodgers (Oct 15, 2016)

I'm new here, but I'm still glad you are back. Great re-intro. :laugh2: I'm pretty certain there are more than a few around who've been lurking around the asylum.> Can't wait for walls of stories and pictures.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Captain's Log, 10/29/16-

This past week has been one of great satisfaction and great frustration on the aquatic front. The pair of Radion XR15FW showed up on Thursday to replace the old(ish) T5 fixtures. This is something I've been wanting to do for some time now that LED technology has advanced as far as it has. I'd been on the fence about which brand to use, Kessil or Ecotech, and after using Radions at the old job and on the nano reef the choice was clear. Even though both brands are high quality, and are reputed to grow plants almost equally well, the programming and spectral customizability of the Radions pushed me over the edge. I'm not a brand-whore, but I do follow the philosophy of "Buy the best in the beginning and you won't need to buy again later.". I think I can safely say that I've got the best with what I can afford (sorry, ADA fans) and won't need to be replacing anything anytime soon. 

For those who are curious, the lights are currently running on a 12 hr photoperiod at 7K CRI and a parabolic increase/decrease in intensity maxing out (currently) at 35% total output which the program estimates is about 53 watts for two fixtures at max intensity.

On the downside, when installing the lights, I knocked the whole left side over and jostled the right side wood group enough to necessitate a re-scape. I'd spent hours getting the arrangement just right and I don't think my wife has seen me as angry as I was that night. That being said, the disaster created an opportunity for renewal. As happy as I was with the old woodwork, I'm even more pleased with the new one. Plus, now that I can dim the lights as much as I want I was able to put the substrate in and not worry about algae problems while waiting for the plants to arrive. All of that combined has made for a very happy Phil. 

The substrate is 20 bags of AquaVitro Aquasolum with a little substrate additive I whipped up during my time with Brightwell. I've been sitting on the jar for the past year and a half waiting to use it on this build. I'm debating doing a fine cover of 1mm substrate for the fine rooters, but Seachem was so kind in donating the substrate that I'm not sure I should do it. I've scrupulously followed the standard ADA set up method so far and I think if I didn't use the powder coat that it'll bug me every time I look at the tank from now on. We'll see what wins out in the end, appreciation or OCD. LOL!

On to the pictures!

Unboxing the lights-












New basic hardscape, now with substrate-













Thanks for watching,
Phil

Bump:


JerrySingh said:


> looks like it's gonna be an awesome build
> 
> 
> From hobby to addiction



HAHAHA, you have no idea. First came the hobby, then came 6 years of school studying botany and water resources, then came work in the aquatics industry. Not too bad for a former music teacher. 

Bump:


Brian Rodgers said:


> I'm new here, but I'm still glad you are back. Great re-intro. :laugh2: I'm pretty certain there are more than a few around who've been lurking around the asylum.> Can't wait for walls of stories and pictures.


Thanks Brian, it's nice to meet you.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

I've been following the build on UKAPS and I'm glad to see you've made it back here. Threads like this always make me want to rescape .


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## JerrySingh (Aug 15, 2015)

looking good already!!


From hobby to addiction


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## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

Phil, believe it or not I have a new tank in the works too. I haven't had the nerve to post anything for fear it would sit in its present state the next 2 years. I hope to make more progress and get something posted soon.

Ben


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

I was hoping you were going to leave it bare bottom and throw some discus in there!


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Jeff5614 said:


> I've been following the build on UKAPS and I'm glad to see you've made it back here. Threads like this always make me want to rescape .


Thanks Jeff, I appreciate the kind words. I feel your pain, seeing other peoples' threads often make me want to do the same thing. 

Bump:


Jeff5614 said:


> I've been following the build on UKAPS and I'm glad to see you've made it back here. Threads like this always make me want to rescape .





Ben Belton said:


> Phil, believe it or not I have a new tank in the works too. I haven't had the nerve to post anything for fear it would sit in its present state the next 2 years. I hope to make more progress and get something posted soon.
> 
> Ben


Ben, now that I'm back in the Charlotte area do I need to drive up there and kick your rear into gear? 

Bump:


Jeff5614 said:


> I've been following the build on UKAPS and I'm glad to see you've made it back here. Threads like this always make me want to rescape .





ichy said:


> I was hoping you were going to leave it bare bottom and throw some discus in there!


HAHAHA Ichy, my discus keeping days are over for now. This tank is a bit too shallow for my liking to risk keeping them in an open top system. Perhaps I'll venture into keeping them again in the future.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Ive also been following on UKaps, glad to see you made it over here!

This entire set up just blows my mind, and that's not even counting the awesome scape.

Quick question if you dont mind. The return pipe going into the tank, it looks like a 3/4" flexible tube that goes into maybe 1" hard pipe?

Does having the bigger pipe allow you to move more water at less velocity? Im trying to figure out the best way to do that using a strong filter without turning the flow down.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Looks like a very very good setup. Do you think or not think moss is gonna get algae with the lighting situation you have?


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

burr740 said:


> Ive also been following on UKaps, glad to see you made it over here!
> 
> This entire set up just blows my mind, and that's not even counting the awesome scape.
> 
> ...



Burr,

Yeah, that's 3/4 ID vinyl tubing going to 1" hard pipe for exactly the reason you mentioned. The larger output reduces velocity (discharge = cross-sectional area x velocity) while maintaining the same discharge. It's not moving any more water than it would with a 3/4" outlet, it's just more gentle.

Cheers,
Phil


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

StrungOut said:


> Looks like a very very good setup. Do you think or not think moss is gonna get algae with the lighting situation you have?


That's a great question and is something I had to consider carefully. I'm fairly confident that the moss won't start getting algae until I put the rest of the plants in there and turn the light intensity up. Hopefully that won't happen, but we all know how new tanks can behave while getting settled in. 

Right now the pendants are maxing out at 35% intensity for less than an hour a day. Until that point the intensity is either ramping up from 0 or decreasing to 0 over the preceeding or following 6 hours. If I had to guess, I'd say the average intensity is about 20-23% with shorter periods of lower or higher irradiation. I haven't busted out the PAR meter yet, but so far everything's doing fine.

Dosing is currently 1tsp KNO3, 1/8tsp KH2PO4, 1/32 tsp traces, and 1 tbsp GH booster 1x/week with CO2 going fairly high for the amount of light.

Cheers,
Phil


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

PEdwards said:


> That's a great question and is something I had to consider carefully. I'm fairly confident that the moss won't start getting algae until I put the rest of the plants in there and turn the light intensity up. Hopefully that won't happen, but we all know how new tanks can behave while getting settled in.
> 
> Right now the pendants are maxing out at 35% intensity for less than an hour a day. Until that point the intensity is either ramping up from 0 or decreasing to 0 over the preceeding or following 6 hours. If I had to guess, I'd say the average intensity is about 20-23% with shorter periods of lower or higher irradiation. I haven't busted out the PAR meter yet, but so far everything's doing fine.
> 
> ...


With java moss, I might see this as doable. With other high tech mosses I see even more doable, like say liverworts where they go with the co2 as well. Time will tell, but this Hardscape is looking great already. Don't see many USA doers these days


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Looks like a great build. Really looking forward to following this. Subscribed!

And by the way, what kind of speaker is that to the right of the tank? Looks like you'll be sitting back and doing some listening while admiring your efforts.


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## vanish (Apr 21, 2014)

Lookin' good. Love big rimless. Why not grab some dark grey or black Krylon and clean up that pvc return?


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

StrungOut,

Thanks for the kind words about the hardscape. The rest of the plants should be here sometime next week and the full light/fert regimen will begin then. The moss will be fine until then.

Cheers,
Phil

Bump:


Greggz said:


> Looks like a great build. Really looking forward to following this. Subscribed!
> 
> And by the way, what kind of speaker is that to the right of the tank? Looks like you'll be sitting back and doing some listening while admiring your efforts.


Thank you Greggz. There should be fairly frequent updates over the next couple of weeks as things progress. I'm getting VERY impatient for the plants to arrive and get this up and running for real. The speakers are just some old Sony towers I got 16 or so years ago to go with the receiver etc I got for a birthday. Sadly, they see more use as cat perches than speakers these days. That may change though now that the tank's making progress.  

Cheers,
Phil

Bump:


vanish said:


> Lookin' good. Love big rimless. Why not grab some dark grey or black Krylon and clean up that pvc return?


Hello vanish, 

First off, nice to meet you. Thanks for stopping by my little corner of TPT and for the kind words. Your comment about painting the return is by far the most frequent one I've received on the old build and this one too. I know it's an eyesore as far as pictures go and I'll get around to painting the outlet eventually, but it's fairly low on my list. The U-tube has a union on it for easy "SERIOUS PHOTO" removal. Right now it doesn't bother me too much and I may be making a new one with an even shorter pipe on the in-tank side if the plants need it and my laziness can be overcome.  

Cheers,
Phil


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Heya folks,

Quick update. I did a 24 hour PAR log run at 7K CRI, averaging readings taken every 30 seconds each hour. The sensor was in the front left corner of the tank where it's farthest from the light, both horizontally and vertically. With the pendant on 100% intensity, the average min was 24 and average max was 65. I haven't run log readings in more illuminated areas since it's the front corners that are what I would call the limiting factor. However, in the more illuminated areas, at the substrate, individual samples read close to 100, which I'm happy with. With these readings in mind, I've set the lights to max out at 75% intensity. Being able to change intensity, light cycles, and CRI as needed was the big selling point for these lights and I couldn't be happier with them! 

Now that AE is over the plants should be coming in soon. It's a good thing too, my patience is running out. HAHAHA

Cheers,
Phil


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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

subscribed! what method do u use to tie the moss onto the branches, string or fishing line?


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Thanks BettaBettas! I went with cotton thread this time. I'd used polyester last time and it was still there after a year, which I didn't want to happen this time around. IMO, fishing line is great for use with rigid structures for walls or just growing mosses out, but I prefer not to use it for putting plants that will eventually attach to hardscape material on their own. 

Cheers,
Phil


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## ArchimedesTheDog (Apr 9, 2012)

Great start! Looking forward to seeing this tank develop!


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

ArchimedesTheDog said:


> Great start! Looking forward to seeing this tank develop!


Thank you very much. The plants will be here tomorrow, so I'll be planting all night and should have initial quickie pics up either tomorrow night or Thursday morning. It's been a looooong time in coming.


Cheers,
Phil


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*Captain's Log 11.10.16*-

The plants arrived yesterday morning! I have to say, I'm very impressed with the hardiness of the Aqvainnova plants. The poor things spent a week and a half in a box getting to my place from Europe, with a stop over in Chicago for a few days during a convention. The only species that didn't handle it too well was H. pinnatifida, which, in my experience doesn't handle prolonged dark periods very well anyway. This is the first time I've used tissue culture (TC) plants extensively and have to say that for the most part they're easier to use than I'd expected. The plants that were grown emersed in a greenhouse were EXTREMELY easy to use; thanks in no small part to the growing vessel. All I had to do was gently pull the bunch out of the glass ring and presto, instant bunch with a root wad. Ironically, due to the extreme density of fronds, the Needle Leaf Java Fern was by far the hardest to work it, being nearly impossible to tie down without tying over small fronds. Solution: let them grow for a while then tie and re-place.

For those not familiar with how Aqvainnova grows their non-tc plants, they use a little glass ring with plastic holder inserts for hydroponic culture. Compared to my experiences with traditional rock wool in pots, they're clean and very easy to use. Needless to say, I'm going to keep all of them for future use. I'm not sure if this method is patented, but I would love to see it become an industry standard.

I'm very happy to be able to announce that Seachem will be distributing Aqvinnova plants under the AquaVitro brand soon! This is exciting to me since most independent stores can easily get Seachem products, so no matter where in the country I end up moving to next (and well ALL know it's going to happen eventually) getting specific species I want is just a matter of doing a special order. In the past I've had to go through wholesalers to be able to get enough plants to do a set up, and there's always an element of seasonal availability going through them since they're almost exclusively supplies by FAN. Now all I'll need to do is go to the LFS and place the order: bingo, bango, done!

Enough talk, on with the pics!

Unboxing- 

 



















New to me Crypt species. I look forward to seeing how this one does in the tank.









The tank just before planting. Here's where my impatience got the better of me and created a small problem. The inundated substrate in the fore and midgrounds wasn't very cohesive and shifted easily while planting. Say bye bye to the nice even slope. 
















My variation on George's One Pot Challenge: 5 rocks, 3 species, in 60 minutes. I thought I'd try a little emergent iwagumi set up with any extra plants. We'll see how it turns out. I'm not a fan of iwagumi in general, preferring the look of wood, and havent done a rock only hardscape in over 10 years. It was a nice challenge and I'm looking forward to seeing how it matures. I may have to start doing more iwagumi to increase my skill in that style for the sake of being more well rounded as an aquascaper.



Thanks for watching!


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

Tank looks awesome! It will look even more so once the plants fill in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Opare said:


> Tank looks awesome! It will look even more so once the plants fill in.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks Opare! I've decided that this is going to be the initial planting. Once everything grows in and I have more plant mass to work with I'll do a proper re-scape. At the moment I'm just glad to have something pretty to look at.


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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

nice! also thanks for naming where you got those plants from, im trying to find out what plants to get for a dutch aquascape, is Aqvainnova a good website to order from? (trusted?) cause the last time I ordered plants online, it was at aquariumplants.com and all of my plants where dead when I got them :l and I only got 2 plants, cost me 120$ and like I said they died >.>


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

BettaBettas,

Aqvinnova is an European company that will soon be selling their plants through Seachem here in the US. From what I've seen so far they're of very high quality. I'm not exactly sure when they'll be available here, but when they are it's going to be a great benefit for US plant keepers. I can't really answer your question about online vendors as I haven't bought plants online for a while. If you're looking for a reliable source of clean plants, PetSmart is (ironically) probably your best bet. Their tissue culture plants are supplied by Florida Aquatic Nurseries and I've been fairly pleased with them in the past. I also know that Tropica 1-2-Grow tissue culture plants are available here in the US right now. Even though the price is higher than typical bunched plants, you get a LOT more plant mass per dollar with them. They're available through one of the largest livestock wholesalers in the country so chances are good your LFS can order them.

Cheers,
Phil


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Love to see large tank's take shape/mature.
Subscribed.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Thank you roadmaster, I look forward to seeing it take shape and mature too. It's always interesting to see how nature shapes one's vision once the planting is done.

Cheers,
Phil


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## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

This looks really good. I am excited to see how this fills in.

I hope my tank is ready to be planted by this weekend. Then I can order the plants. It is like your Iwagumi tank but with more rocks.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

That's a big load of plants to get started with. Looks very well thought out.

I watch builds like yours with great interest. Obviously, you are going all in to create a specific look/feel to this tank.

Before you get started, you must have a vision. Do you just take that general vision and get started and let it fall into place? Or do you actually sketch it out? 

I mean I can see you give it a great deal of thought. Just curious as to the process when you create your underwater art. Clearly you have an eye for it. 

By contrast, most things in my tank happen purely by accident.:wink2::wink2:


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## Ryan Stephens (Nov 2, 2016)

That Aquasolum is a little difficult to come by where i am, and not too cheap either haha, but my S. Repens is absolutly loving it! very kind of them to gift it to you! Loving it all so far, keep up the great work man!


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Ryan Stephens said:


> That Aquasolum is a little difficult to come by where i am, and not too cheap either haha, but my S. Repens is absolutly loving it! very kind of them to gift it to you! Loving it all so far, keep up the great work man!


Thanks for the kind words Ryan. Where in SC are you? I'm in Rock Hill these days. I hear you about it not being cheap. I thought Brightwell's stuff was expensive, but it's cheaper per-pound at the LFS than Aquasolum. I'm looking forward to seeing how it grows plants.

Bump:


Ben Belton said:


> This looks really good. I am excited to see how this fills in.
> 
> I hope my tank is ready to be planted by this weekend. Then I can order the plants. It is like your Iwagumi tank but with more rocks.



Doooo eeeeet! It's not that hard to do, really.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Greggz said:


> That's a big load of plants to get started with. Looks very well thought out.
> 
> I watch builds like yours with great interest. Obviously, you are going all in to create a specific look/feel to this tank.
> 
> ...



Greggz,

Thanks again. I've tried the whole buy a few plants and grow them out thing in the past and it never worked out as well as just packing the tank as full as possible from the start. That being said, there's still a lot of open real estate needing to be planted. I just have to find a source for about two square feet of the stem plants I want. After getting good hardscape, that's one of the hardest things for me to accomplish. We'll see what happens there.

To answer your question, this particular build has been percolating in my head for years and years. It's probably been at least 10 years since the first thoughts of this design popped into my head and it's been percolating/refining ever since. "Well thought out" is like saying "Alaska gets a little chilly in winter". It's just taken me this long to get all of the elements I've needed to make the vision come to life. I just hope I can execute the vision as well as I can see it. I've always had a hard time physically expressing my thoughts visually. However, I had to make the best with the materials I was able to get, so it wasn't 100% completely planned out. The hardscape went through many variations until I found the combination that felt right (I'm a very intuitive rather than logical person). What other people may call an "eye for it" to me is more about the pieces coming together in a way that emphasizes their essence in a way that also matches my vision. It's hard to explain, but many times while working on the hardscape it just felt forced somehow, even though it looked good. That's where minor tweaking can make a huge difference. 

This tank aside, my style tends to be a bit more on the organic side. Sometimes I'll have a clear vision and/or plan for what I want to accomplish, but most of the time I let the materials on hand dictate a lot of what I do. For example, I decided I wanted to do that little tank as an iwagumi so I gathered a bunch of rocks and found the one I was most interested in and made it the master stone. After that, it was all about finding rocks that supported it visually and aesthetically. I didn't go searching for a group of "just the right rock(s)". I just grabbed a boatload of interesting looking stuff and then let them do the talking. Once that was done I put the plants in where they looked/felt best and it was done. There was absolutely no plan other than "I'm going to do a rock scape and use whatever plants are left over from the big tank.". 

The big exception to this have been the biotopes and Dutch aquascapes. Both of those styles require a lot of forethought and planning/preparation. 

<edit> You mentioned that a lot of what happens in your tank is on accident. That's a natural part of progression for aquascapers. It sounds like you know just enough to be dangerous, but not quite enough to be deadly.  Part of how I do things also has to do with experience. I've been doing this for 20 years now and have learned how to tell if a piece of hardscape will look good in a tank vs. just looking good in my hand/at the store; also being able to determine if a piece will do ok on its own or needs to be part of a group to work best. The best advice I can give is practice as many different hardscapes as you can to build your chops and hone your eye. Having a sandbox or a lot of tanks to practice in helps too.  So does being willing to make mistakes, show them in public, and learn from others' eyes seeing things you don't. </edit>

Hope that answered your question.


Cheers,
Phil


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## Ryan Stephens (Nov 2, 2016)

PEdwards said:


> Thanks for the kind words Ryan. Where in SC are you? I'm in Rock Hill these days. I hear you about it not being cheap. I thought Brightwell's stuff was expensive, but it's cheaper per-pound at the LFS than Aquasolum. I'm looking forward to seeing how it grows plants.


im in aiken! they had it at the lfs in augusta GA (bobs tropical fish if you're every in the area) but they dont seem to stock it very often, i got the only bag they've had in a while.

i didnt use it in the whole aquarium, just to build up the back and i covered it with a thin layer of ecocomplete (the rest of the tank is also done in it) to hold it down, its quite light imo.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

I agree, it is light. Lighter than I prefer actually. It does well for planting when wet, but not inundated. I get the feeling I'm going to have to do a total drain and refill any time I need to do major plant maintenance.  That being said, I can see it being really good for plants when they're basically planted and left alone. I'll continue to give my experiences here as time goes on. Right now, it's so far, so good.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> To answer your question, this particular build has been percolating in my head for years and years. It's probably been at least 10 years since the first thoughts of this design popped into my head and it's been percolating/refining ever since. "Well thought out" is like saying "Alaska gets a little chilly in winter".


PEdwards, thanks for the detailed response. Just as I thought, you spend a great deal of time (ten years!) honing your vision. 

In relative planted tank terms, I’m just a newbie. Just under a year with higher tech, although I have been keeping fish for decades. 

I appreciate the efforts of you and others on this board, as they not only educate, but are inspirational as well. Keep up the good work and looking forward to following your progress.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Greggz said:


> PEdwards, thanks for the detailed response. Just as I thought, you spend a great deal of time (ten years!) honing your vision.
> 
> In relative planted tank terms, I’m just a newbie. Just under a year with higher tech, although I have been keeping fish for decades.
> 
> I appreciate the efforts of you and others on this board, as they not only educate, but are inspirational as well. Keep up the good work and looking forward to following your progress.


Just paying it forward Greggz. I got a lot of help from people who are no longer active in the public side of the hobby when I was just a plantlet.


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## LuckyBetta (Nov 13, 2016)

Hi PEdwards, I am loving your tank so far and looking forward to seeing it grow and mature! I am also excited to learn from you as you do it, as I am very new to the hobby myself. 
All the best!


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Thank you Lucky, I appreciate it. I'm sure at some point this will be a "learning experience" for all of us. I'm not the kind to hide when things go wrong and show only the good. While it may help create a good public image, doing so doesn't help anyone else out. I always learned the most when experienced people had trouble and worked through it publicly. Sure, a lot can be avoided with simple proper husbandry, but something bad will always happen eventually. My journals are always "warts and all" as our UK friends like to say.

Cheers,
Phil


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## sadchevy (Jun 15, 2013)

Glad to see up back on TPT and back at it. I enjoyed following your basement build and look forward to following this one too.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

sadchevy said:


> Glad to see up back on TPT and back at it. I enjoyed following your basement build and look forward to following this one too.


Thanks Chevy! As fun as the basement build was, it's better to have only one tank to focus my attentions on right now. I just hope it turns out well. I hate it when I'm the limiting factor.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*Captain's Log 12.4.16*- Got stems and fish!

After a few week's waiting, I was finally able to order stems and fish for the tank. It was about time too, with about 2 square feet of empty immature substrate things were starting to get a little brown around the petioles. It was more difficult than I thought to balance the needs of the fully planted fore and midgrounds with not wanting to overdo it and have a huge mess with the unplanted background. Now that that's been solved and a minor [censored][censored][censored][censored]load of Otocinclus have taken residence, things are looking like they should again. 

I'd also been having some issues with CO2 microbubbles aggregating in reactor's input side, and the resulting poor dissolution, causing variability in concentration when it was needed most. The fix was easy, add a bit of bio media to the bottom of the chambers and reverse the flow. Now the microbubbles stay micro inside the reactor and there's minimal loss through the outlet. This makes for happier plants and a happier Phil. 

Current species list:
(From Aqvainnova)
_Glossostigma elatinoides
Lilaeopsis brasiliensis
Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Bronze/Tropica'
Cryptocoryne costata/albida
Cryptocoryne x. willisi
Microsorum pteropus 'Narrow Leaf'
Anubias barteri v. nana 'Petite'
Bucephelandra motleyana
Rotala rotundifolia
Alternanthera reineckii 'Mini' 
Staurogyne repens_

(From Florida Aquatic Nurseries)
_Hygrophila pinnatifida
Hygrophila corymbosa 'Kompact'
Pogostemon erectus
Bacopa monneri
Rotala macrandra
Didplis diandra
Cyperus helferi_

2x Nymphaea sp. that are being rehabilitated for a coworker


FISH!
_Trigonostigma espei_ Espei Rasbora x 25
_Barbus filamentosus_ African/Angolan Banded barb x 11 I'd ordered Desmopuntius pentazona, but someone screwed up and sent these instead. They're a pretty fish and may turn out even better than the 5 banded barbs in time. We'll see.
_Otocinclus affinis_ x 23

1m and 2f feeder guppy juveniles that got included in one of the bags and thankfully found their way out of the main tank and into the overflow. They're now living happily in the sump until I can figure out what to do with them.


Picture time







In other happy news, my brother's giving me his old camera for Christmas so photo quality should dramatically improve in the near future.


Thanks for watching,
Phil


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*Captain's Log 12.22.16*- Mixed reviews

I've been having trouble with CO2 and algae since the last update. Thankfully, the shrimp arrived yesterday and a bunch of them quickly found their way into the overflow...of course. Time to make a new strainer! Also, there was some issue with CO2 and the reactor. I got a needlewheel impeller for the CO2 pump and it chops the stuff up nicely, but somewhere between there and the first reactor chamber the little bubbles conglomerate back into bigger ones. I've tried a couple different adjustments in hopes of fixing that, but no dice. It's back to dissolving big bubbles old-school style. I keep telling myself that in the end, as long as the gas is dissolving that's all that really matters. I got a top for the overflow, made the trickle drain higher to reduce turbulence in the overflow, and got the drip tray sealed up nicely. I'd previously only had a sturdy plastic bag covering the opening on the drip try box. This time I taped it up completely. Those changes seem to have worked well in the short term. We'll have to wait and see how they do over the long term. As far as plants go, the only species that aren't doing well are Cyperus helferi and Pogostemon erectus. I'd expected that though, they've been notoriously hard for me to get adjusted to submersed form. I'm not going to remove any of them in hopes that some little bit somewhere will start growing. If not, then it'll be time to find something else to fill those spots. 

On the up side, most of the plants are growing. I did the first trim and replant and gave the moss a major thinning a week or so ago and things are perking up nicely. I also got a quartet of Scarlet Badis and hope that at least one of them is female. They're tiny, tiny, tiny right now and are lost in the foliage. I look forward to seeing them when they're larger.

Pictures will be forthcoming after Christmas.

Cheers,
Phil


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## Econde (Oct 13, 2015)

Great update. Looking forward for more. Merry Christmas btw!


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

*Currently Unnamed, 80 gallon high tech build*

Yeah transitioning Pogostemon erectus is always a nightmare for me too. Submersed trimmings completely died in my emersed setup, and took a while to get going in my tank when I first bought it (it was bought emersed).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*1.25.17 Update*

Still battling the infectious, awful, horrible, extremely irritating stringy diatoms. It got so bad that I tore the whole tank down, took all the moss off the wood; cleaned it and tossed the dying parts, scrubbed the wood with a sponge, kept the worst of the affected plants in the dark for three days, and redid the whole damn thing. That only worked for a few days before the crap came back. 

On the up side, I got a 20" canister for the CO2 instead of the three smaller ones. I was losing too much gas to bypass with the smaller cans even though there were three. Now I'm dialing in how much I have to crank the pump down relative to the CO2 input to keep the microbubbles in the canister from flowing straight into the outlet pipe. Previously, the stem plants were struggling badly and starting to die. Since then I've raised the lights as high as they can go and increased the max intensity to 100% at photoperiod peak to get as much spread and light to all sections of the tank as I can. I also raised the outlet and that's increased circulation. Those things seem to have improved growth a bit, but time will tell. Finally, all the plants were showing signs of Ca and Mg deficiency even though I had been dosing enough to bring concentrations past 20 and 5ppm, respectively. My guess is the substrate's inherent softening (read: divalent cation adsorption power) capability was stripping the water. My water's already VERY soft so I've since doubled dosages and increased frequency. I sent an email to Seachem the other day to see if they have any data on this that might prove useful in the long run. If not, the only option seems to be dose heavily until it reaches saturation. 

Long story short- most plants seem to be improving even though the algae is winning the war to take over the tank. 

Now for the pics:


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## cininohio (Jan 13, 2016)

Hope it turns toward the positive for you, as your scape is beautiful.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Oh man that looks like some awful algae to deal with. Hopefully when the plants get happy it'll go away, or run it's course. 

Isnt this a brand new line of substrate? I'd be curious if anyone else using it had similar diatom blooms.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Glad to see an update, but sorry to see the battles you have been fighting.

I'll be following along to see how this goes for you. Just goes to show new folks here that even a seasoned veteran sometimes has to overcome some adversary. 

I hope you get it solved, and will be curious to see how things progress from here. 

Keep the updates and pictures coming.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

cininohio said:


> Hope it turns toward the positive for you, as your scape is beautiful.


Thank you for the kind words cininohio.



burr740 said:


> Oh man that looks like some awful algae to deal with. Hopefully when the plants get happy it'll go away, or run it's course.
> 
> Isnt this a brand new line of substrate? I'd be curious if anyone else using it had similar diatom blooms.


Burr, 

Yeah, it's relatively new on the market and is brand new to me in a high tech application. That being said, I've had diatom issues with every soil-based substrate like this; Red Sea (back in the day), ADA, Brightwell, and now Seachem. It's nigh impossible to get any type of soil that doesn't have silicate materials in it as they're one of the mineral groups that's most resistant to weathering and get included into a lot of clay minerals. On top of that, the lights and method of CO2 dissolution are new to me in personal/home application so there are a lot of variables I need to get some practical experience with. I've taken care of systems using Radions at a former job, but the substrate was inert and I'd made a large triple-chamber old-school PVC and bioball reactor for it. I've been considering adding something like bioballs to the reaction chamber to create resistance in hopes of getting better dissolution. Right now the options are run the pump at flank speed to avoid gas buildup, but push the microbubbles into the sump or run the pump slower but get gas build up. I've tried various degrees of both so far and haven't found a sweet spot. Finding a method of creating resistance is a likely near future to-do, but I've made a bunch of changes recently and need to give them some time to show results, one way or the other.



Greggz said:


> Glad to see an update, but sorry to see the battles you have been fighting.
> 
> I'll be following along to see how this goes for you. Just goes to show new folks here that even a seasoned veteran sometimes has to overcome some adversary.
> 
> ...


Thanks Greggz,

Even though it's incredibly frustrating, I know that it's just a natural process of the system maturing and am trying really hard not to tinker it to death. Yeah, diatoms suck, but at least it's not BBA. 

That's exactly why I posted the bad pics.  Everyone...EVERYONE has algae issues from time to time and I agree, it's important that "seasoned veterans" let folks see it. Even though I know a lot about the science and practical husbandry of planted tanks I don't know everything and everyone has something to share. A fresh set of eyes or anecdote from personal experience, even from a rank beginner, can teach me something. Personally, I think showing algae issues, having meaninful discussion about it/them, and showing how the problems get resolved is a much better learning experience for everyone than just showing pics of healthy tanks and telling folks to do such-and-such. Blindly following various methods and blankly telling folks "you're doing it wrong" with no meaningful discussion when they have problems doesn't help. I remember asking Amano questions about algae with new Amazonia and he just said "Do more water changes". That wasn't helpful at all. Here I was, a customer of his asking seeking to learn from his experience with his product only to get snubbed... His maintenance crew take meticulous notes so he had more real data on planted tanks than anyone else in the world. A simple "In new tanks when we get X we change Y and/or Z" would have been really helpful. I don't want to be like that.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

So I lied when I said I wasn't going to make any changes to the system. I made a rookie mistake and forgot a fundamental rule of fluid dynamics...pressure increases dissolution and to create pressure you need to restrict the outlet...which I wasn't doing. All my tweaking had focused on restricting flow through the system from the pump end rather than the discharge end. For the moment I'm using a true union ball valve at the end of the discharge line until I can get the parts I need to hard plumb a valve into the discharge pipe. What a gross misuse of an expensive piece of hardware, LOL! The valve is closed almost all the way; it's open just enough to pass enough water to keep the microbubbles from aggregating in the input line. After a little examination, only the finest of the fine microbubbles are making it into the in-chamber discharge intake tube. We'll see what the drop checker looks like when the lights come on tomorrow.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

PEdwards said:


> I've been considering adding something like bioballs to the reaction chamber to create resistance in hopes of getting better dissolution...Finding a method of creating resistance is a likely near future to-do


HA! Maybe I'm not a dimwit afterall. ROFLMAO Now if only I can remember in the evening what I was thinking about in the morning...:wink2:


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## EVANATOOR77 (Mar 2, 2016)

I'm not sure what fauna you have, but for your algae problem I would suggest buying some fish/inverts to help cut back on your algae problems. There are many great options that work well at controlling algae. For example, Siamensis are great for hair algae, and so amano shrimp. Stiphodon sp., flagfish, and mollies also will eat hair algae, but these tend to be more aggressive species, not only towards fish but towards plants. From your pictures, I couldn't really tell what type of fauna (if any) you have, but I could see some Hair algae or BBA among your glosso and Mircro swords. I have had problems with both in the past and siamensis and amano shrimp are two easygoing, no-nonsense hair algae/BBA eaters i've had a lot of success with. Just a word of advice, perhaps info you already knew.


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## Mxx (Dec 29, 2010)

I'd second the suggestion to throw some algae eating fish/shrimp/nerite snails at it. And you could dose Excel, as even though you have CO2 that will still help to dampen algae growth. And as your plants settle in and start to grow vigorously then they should take over from the algae. I thought diatoms usually tend to go away on their own once the tank settles in as well, as annoying as they are meanwhile...


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Evanatoor77 and Mxx,

Thank you for your input. You both bring up good points about algae eaters and Excel. Unfortunately, I'm very specific about what animals go in my tanks so Ottos and shrimp are going to be the only cleaning crew. I know that limits me somewhat, but it also forces me to up my game and make sure the whole ecosystem gets in balance and is maintained well.

As far as fauna/bioload, I've got 12 Espei Rasboras, 9 African Banded Barbs, and 15 ottos in a 100ish gallon system. There were 50 cherry shrimp at one point, but I killed them all. Keeping shrimp has never been a strong suit. As far as types of algae I've seen, aside from a little bit of GSA on the glass at one point and a couple Anubias leaves the only nuisance stuff is the stringy diatoms. The puffy stuff on that one piece of wood in one of the pictures is some sort of fungus that's growing as that piece matures. It's easy to remove and hasn't spread so it's a null issue in my books (for now) There's some sort of something on the wood, but it's staying there and is pretty so I'm not too concerned about it.

In my opinion, the root cause of the diatoms is the silica in the substrate, compounded by an imbalance in light and CO2 (and my tinkering to optimize both). The foreground area is where this started and has had the worst of it. It's always received really good circulation so I've ruled that out. At the moment, all evidence leads me to think that it's a maturation issue that got exacerbated by poor CO2 dissolution, which led me to tinker with the lights and CO2 too much, causing increased instability in an already unstable/new system. 

I could be wrong and time will surely tell if I am. For now I've got the hardware set and aside from increasing CO2 as needed, I'm going to leave it alone for a while to see what the results are before making any other changes. Still going to keep up with the 2x weekly 50%+ water changes and algae siphoning. If the stem plants start growing better I'll know I'm in the right track.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*1.31.17 Update*-

Bad news: the diatoms are continuing to grow at an embarrassing rate. Nearly everything has at least some amount of infestation. The worst part is that the most affected plants are the ones that are most likely to uproot or get dislocated during cleaning/siphoning. That's making it extra difficult to effectively remove large amounts of the stuff.

Good news: Burr sent me a big fat load of gorgeous and healthy cuttings for testing/observation. Seeing how they do in the next couple of weeks will hopefully tell me something about what's going on in there. 

Current specs:
Light: 2x Radion XR15-FW at 7,500K 24 inches above the water's surface. Photoperiod is a 12 hour parabolic increase/decrease (Natural Lake setting) with max intensity at 70%, approx 50 watts per unit. There's about a 5 hour period where intensity is 50% or greater. Glosso and Lilaeopsis are doing great in a zone that receives the least amount of light according to EcoTech's PAR diagram. That's one thing that makes me wonder why the stems in the back aren't responding as well as expected. 

CO2: Still chugging away at 6-8 bps coming on 1 hr before the lights do. Even though there's noticeable gas build up in the morning and significant build upas the day progresses I think I'm going to have to up CO2 even more. The drop checker never gets that nice color on the border of lime green and yellow, but it does get to lightish green. A number of plants have bubbles on their leaves, but I see no active pearling. Most of the stem species are growing, just not as fast or as robustly as I'm accustomed to. 

If someone can lend experience to make a Cerges reactor even more efficient I would appreciate it. It's currently being powered by a MagDrive 200 with needle wheel impeller. For some reason the one on this tank isn't working as well as the ones I've had on larger tanks in the past. At the moment water and gas are going in the inlet and out the outlet with a ball valve at the discharge point to create resistance/pressure and only the smallest bubbles are making it through. I've considered adding bioballs and/or rigging up some sort of recirculation line but that would make things in the stand even messier than they already are. 

Ferts: NO3 - 2 tsp (21 ppmish), PO4 - 0.5 tsp (5 ppmish), K- 1 tsp (10 ppmish), Ca2SO4 - 1 tbsp (20 ppmish), MgSO4 * 7H2O - 1 tbsp (5 ppmish) three times a week; twice after water changes and one more for good measure. CSM+B 0.25ish tsp once a week. 

Added a small powerhead in the rear to improve circulation to the right rear corner that receives the least amount of flow.


Cheers,
Phil


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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

start to finish, I give this tank a good ol' A++


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Thanks Bettas, it's appreciated.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Maybe you have a bit too much light, at least for now. You mention that glosso and lilaeopsis are doing well in an area of lower light but stems aren't doing as well in what I assume is an area of more light.


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## ScubaSteve (Jun 30, 2012)

Suggestion....I'd use airline tubing as a siphon to get the diatoms off your plants...I went through the same thing....I would use a spray bottle with peroxide and then suck all the diatoms off with the tubing. It kept it in check for the most part...but when I finally dialed in my CO2 and actually upped my light cycle, was when it went away for good.


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

*Currently Unnamed, 80 gallon high tech build*



Jeff5614 said:


> Maybe you have a bit too much light, at least for now. You mention that glosso and lilaeopsis are doing well in an area of lower light but stems aren't doing as well in what I assume is an area of more light.


I agree with Jeff a reduced light period/intensity may help things out, as well as getting that CO2 just right. The tinkering with the CO2 may be helping the algae grow, although it is probably best you keep tinkering till you get that reactor working perfectly. Can't say much though I'm having a similar problem, but more of the powdery diatoms only getting the filamentous stuff like yours on the wood or plants near/on the wood.
Usually diatoms just go away IME and you just have to wait it out. Hopefully that is the case for the two of us! You probably have much more knowledge and experience than me, so I'm confident you will figure it out. The scape is really really good by the way, definition of nature aquarium! Definitely what I aspire to do if/when I get a big tank.
Also, I saw you mentioned the connection between silicates and diatoms, do you have more reading I could possibly look into? I had though diatoms was a cycling thing as it usually only appears around the start of a tank's life for me.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Jeff5614 said:


> Maybe you have a bit too much light, at least for now. You mention that glosso and lilaeopsis are doing well in an area of lower light but stems aren't doing as well in what I assume is an area of more light.


Jeff, I'm sure that's part of the cause, I'm just not sure how of of the cause it is, if that makes sense. The stems are in the same location, relative to light spread from the puck, as the foreground plants. In this case I'm lead to believe it's partially a circulation issue.



ScubaSteve said:


> Suggestion....I'd use airline tubing as a siphon to get the diatoms off your plants...I went through the same thing....I would use a spray bottle with peroxide and then suck all the diatoms off with the tubing. It kept it in check for the most part...but when I finally dialed in my CO2 and actually upped my light cycle, was when it went away for good.


Thanks for the advice Steve. Unfortunately, the stuff is so thick and profuse that an airline would get clogged nearly instantly. Gotta stick with the python hose for now.



Opare said:


> I agree with Jeff a reduced light period/intensity may help things out, as well as getting that CO2 just right. The tinkering with the CO2 may be helping the algae grow, although it is probably best you keep tinkering till you get that reactor working perfectly. Can't say much though I'm having a similar problem, but more of the powdery diatoms only getting the filamentous stuff like yours on the wood or plants near/on the wood.
> Usually diatoms just go away IME and you just have to wait it out. Hopefully that is the case for the two of us! You probably have much more knowledge and experience than me, so I'm confident you will figure it out. The scape is really really good by the way, definition of nature aquarium! Definitely what I aspire to do if/when I get a big tank.
> Also, I saw you mentioned the connection between silicates and diatoms, do you have more reading I could possibly look into? I had though diatoms was a cycling thing as it usually only appears around the start of a tank's life for me.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Opare,

Diatoms have a shell made from silica so elevated levels, or a big source, of it will help diatoms grow.



*Update 2.2.17*-

I did a bit of research into Cerges reactors yesterday and came across a number of posts discussing the need for relatively high flow/strong pumps. I'd thought that 150-200 gph was sufficient, but it may not be. In the past I've used them as part of a closed loop system on a large tank with a large pump so there's been ample back pressure and pump strength. This is the first time I've run one with a needlewheel impeller from the sump directly back into the sump. Pressure dynamics are a lot different! I've put the tank's main return pump on it and so far haven't seen any build up in the reactor, even with the gas going pretty heavily. We'll see what it's like when I get home tonight. If it's still looking good I'll be getting a stronger pump. With any luck that'll check one potential cause off the list.

Regarding light, I'm trying hard to fix one thing at a time rather than tweak multiple things at once. As soon as the CO2 thing is resolved I'll start reducing light input. With a bit of luck and some elbow grease doing a lot of careful cleaning things will turn around.

Thanks for watching,
Phil


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*2.2.17 evening update*-

After a full 9 hours of running on the main return pump, the CO2 reactor was build-up free, even being throttled waaaaaay back. I grabbed a 597 gph needlewheel pump from the return bin at work and will be hooking it up shortly. Here's to hoping that does the trick. I'm also very seriously considering trying to add the 3 chamber reactor back into the mix and running the outlet directly into the tank. I just don't want to blow the stems sideways. LOL

On a less bright note, I've got the light software reprogrammed to run a 6 hr photoperiod at 55%. All it will take is plugging the lights in and hitting "program". That will come a bit after I'm sure the CO2 is dialed in. I know that's completely backward, but I can't help wanting to see how the stems respond to sufficient CO2 and lots of light, if only for a day.


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## Mxx (Dec 29, 2010)

I'd had a look to refresh myself on the issue of diatoms. Unless I'm mistaken the filmy species of diatoms can be dealt with by increasing light, while the filamentous species cannot. 

I take it you're sure it's diatoms and not another algae or cyano?

If you didn't want to wait it out as most people recommend, and if you wanted to thus proactively remove silicate from the water you can use phosphate absorbers as those also remove silicate. GFO, Phosguard, and Phoszorb do, as well as this stuff apparently - Silicarbon from Germany that is available from Aquarium Specialty. That's a temporary fix, as you wouldn't want to use it too long as your plants would start to eventually suffer from lack of phosphates perhaps. 

Dosing Excel would help as well, as would finding something else to eat it if your Otos don't. 

Adding floating plants could help too as a temporary measure, being that they're not dissolved co2 dependent.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Heya Mxx,

It's been a loooong time since I took the algae class so I'm not feeling 100% absolutely certain it's stringy diatoms. However, after looking at a lot of pictures on Google, I'm fairly confident that's what it is. As for phosphate/silicate removers, I've thought of it but prefer not to use them so I don't have to worry about not knowing PO4 concentrations. It's a potential short term aid, but that's just too much uncertainty for me at this point. If they're still around in nuisance amounts once light and CO2 are fixed then I may consider it.

Excel? Yeah, I'm going to use it once the resupply for the work tank comes in.  

Floating plants are an excellent idea and one I've thought of frequently. The pros are obvious, but as far as the cons go the main one is all of the root systems of anything that's exposed, such as Java Fern and Buces are filthy with the stuff and right now I don't want to risk creating another place for it to hide. On the up side, Burr included some Pennywort that starting to grow on the surface so I'll probably let that grow and do it's thing. With any luck it'll have the same effect as floaters.

All three of your ideas are good and could potentially help. I just need to get the system as it is now stabilized before adding anything other than Excel.


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## r.s.hutchinson (Jun 4, 2014)

Beautiful tank with a lot of depth. I understand your frustration on the algae issues with easily up-rooted plants. Seems to love my moss which is easily ripped off and sucked up with the algae when vacuuming it.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Thank you r.s.hutchinson


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## Mxx (Dec 29, 2010)

Dealing with cycling and algae issues had been on my own mind now for the first time in quite a while as well now that I'd been setting up two nanos, and I'm personally impatient if I'm not happy with how things are looking from the start and if I'm worried that plants are suffering as a result. I was getting a bunch of cyano in one of those which I zapped with Ultralife Blue Green Algae Remover, which is a fairly natural and not a detrimental way of dealing with it, and that quickly then disappeared. 

With phosphate remover you could use it for a week to soak up any of the excess silica and then discontinue it. Your phosphates would quickly replenish through feeding your fish so your plants shouldn't yet have run out their reserves entirely and started to suffer by then.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*2.5.17*-

Soooo, I finally found an appropriate name for this build- Also (Thus) Sprach Zarathustra. I heard the ominous first refrains this morning when the lights came on and also during the destruction I wrought when taking everything out and cleaning the plants as well as possible before bagging them for storage while a thorough cleaning is done.

I'll be posting a list of mistakes I made sometime in the near future, hopefully tonight once all's said and done. However, I'll put this one up now as it's of great importance.

In my zeal to build the aquascape I'd been planning for so long I neglected to take the time to really learn the system. This lead to all the things I've talked about so far, good and bad. 

Sooooo, for now I've decided to clean the hell out of everything except some of the filter media and rescape it into a (hopefully) nice looking growing tank until I really know how things will behave before doing any sort of competition-worthy scaping. 

Gotta go do more substrate cleaning, more later.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*2.8.17 small update*-

Well, I got the whole tank (read: substrate) cleaned the hell out and rescaped on Sunday. I think there was 1/8 inch of fine silt in the tub after a drain/refill/drain cycle. Good thing the mrs. didn't see it (I hope). The hydrologist in me loved seeing the dendritic drainage lines, but I digress. All of the rock got pulled out and most of the wood got re-aligned into more of an upright fashion, moved toward the rear a bit, and bunched a little more closely in the middle. This will hopefully solve a couple issues:

1- Create space right under the lights for stems
2- Allow for better circulation around the tank edges and within the wood structure
3- Allow(ed) the attachment of all the Needle Leaf Java Fern, A. barteri 'Nana', and B. motelyana onto branches that get good flow

While the plants were out of the tank they all got a nice peroxide bath, only stupid me forgot to spray the wood so all the infected moss got put right back into the tank. Here's to hoping the little bit that made it back in won't make the tank look like Trump's hair again.

Other notable things that happened:
1. The lights got put on their new 55% for 6 hours/day schedule.
2. I got fed up with the needlewheel blowing the microbubbles through the reactor and made a few modifications. 

#1: Added a gas input line at the reactor's input. The expectation is the larger (regular size) bubbles will resist flow better and result in a greater and faster drop in pH. I've been blowing through enough gas to run a system three times the size of this one only to have it take five hours or so for the drop checker to turn lime green. On the upside, the system holds onto the CO2 pretty well once it gets dissolved. It's getting it dissolved without using a ridiculous amount of gas. This is pretty much how I ran the last Cerges reactor I used. This time I let a few "gurus" influence my decision making that lead to running the gas through the needlewheel. I can see how this sort of arrangement would be awesome for direct input of mist into a tank; it just hasn't been optimal for efficient dissolution in my system. 

#2: Added a ball valve on the outlet side plumbing to control flow in a more elegant way than having a big gray true union valve in the sump. Everything looks a lot cleaner and streamlined. 


If these changes don't make a significant difference then the last resort is to slap a 5 micron sediment filter into the 10" filter unit I've got laying around and plumb that sucker in. If that doesn't work then it's time to start pulling out hair and consider selling the whole sump to finance canister filters. These options are last resort options as I'd rather not do either for various reasons.


PICS!!! 
Before- 

Yes, that's algae in the reactor. I had a DSM tank (for future shrimp use) set up on the floor next to the stand.
In between- 


After-


Tank pics will have to wait until I can bring my good camera home from work. The junk cell phone was good enough for the plumbing.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*2.9.17 am update*-

I couldn't help it and ran a little test this morning in the interest of not inadvertently gassing my fish while at work (that's my story and I'm sticking to it). After installing the new injection unit and cutting back the gas to about half, maybe a little less, than it was resulted in a noticeable decrease in gas loss in the chamber and faster reaction from the drop checker. It wasn't where I'd like it to be after an hour, but it's better than it was before. At this point gas input is set at (very) approximately 60% of what it was previously. Hopefully we'll see an increase in pearling when I get home from work. Even though the DC was lime green last night an hour before gas-off, pearling was almost non-existent which tells me the plants hadn't been sufficient CO2 throughout the majority of the photoperiod.

On the up side, aside from the crypts melting from their H2O2 bath, everything looks to be responding well to the changes made on Sunday.

Looking forward to updating everyone and taking pics when I get home tonight.

Cheers,
Phil


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*2.9.17 pm update*-

Well, I didn't gas the fish and the reactor didn't have any build up in it. The drop checker was medium-light green at about 6 hours after gas on. Still no active pearling though. The plants look a bit worse for wear after the H2O2 treatment, but otherwise are showing new growth and no symptoms of malnurishment. I've increased input a bit more so we'll see how things look tomorrow evening. Thankfully the weekend is coming up so I'll be able to check things out early in the photoperiod for a couple of days rather than having to wait until I get home from work. 

I've also started dosing Excel in an effort to keep that dreaded alga from coming back and to knock back some others that started cropping up. Hopefully that will keep the plants happy while the CO2 gets where it needs to be.

It's a bit too soon to make a final judgement, but things feel like they're getting on the right track. The only thing I'm going to mess with is increasing CO2.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

It sounds like progress. I've been looking forward to seeing this tank come together and it seems it's even closer than before now.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

I don't want to jinx anything Jeff, but progress may have been made. Time will tell.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*2.9.17 photo dump*-

Sorry for the crap pictures, still getting used to the new camera and lower tank lighting. Pics taken on 2.7.17



























Thanks for watching!


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*Happy news, 2.12.17*-

Ran a pH test this morning and got a 1 point drop, 7 to 6, in an hour. It was with an API test kit so the actual values are a bit suspect. A local friend is going to lend me his Hanna pH pen at some point so we'll see what the actual numbers are. Even so, it's a good start.

Current stats for future comparisons
1. Light - 50% for 6 hrs/day
2. pH - 1 point drop after an hour
3. 50% WC 1x/wk
4. Ferts - 1 tsp KNO3 3x/wk, 0.75 tsp KH2PO4 3x/wk, 0.5 tsp K2SO4 2-3x/wk, 3 tsp CaSO4 (Plaster of Paris) at water changes and 1 tsp mid-week, 3 tsp MgSO4 (Epsom Salts) 1x/wk, 1/32 tsp CSM+B 1-2x/wk
5. Excel - 60mL after water changes and 15mL daily (a little less than 2 times recommended dose). Will be tapering this off slowly as presence of algae dictates.

I'll be sticking with this regimen for the foreseeable future. Now the fun of taking regular pictures for time-lapse comparisons comes. 

The next goal - Once the tank has matured and is stable for a while it'll be time to start adding shrimp. I've only ever had one planted display where I didn't outright massacre the poor buggers. Being able to keep shrimp alive for the long term is my next personal challenge in aquarium keeping.

Cheers,
Phil


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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

Wow, tank looks magnificent!  cant wait to see it grow in a bit more, and see the fish later on


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

LOL Bettas, the fish are in there already. I started out with 25 Espei Rasboras and am down to 7. Seems they like to jump. Thank God I have cats to eat them when they do. I'd hate for the Mrs. to complain about the living room smelling bad. There's a school of 9 African Banded Barbs and a group of 4 cories that a local TPT member needed to rehome in there too.

Thank you for the kind words about the scape. I've had to completely forego form in favor of function with this one and am not particularly happy with the way it looks. Someday it'll get a major face lift into a decent aquascape. For now though, it's all about growing the plants.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> *Happy news, 2.12.17*-
> 
> Ran a pH test this morning and got a 1 point drop, 7 to 6, in an hour. It was with an API test kit so the actual values are a bit suspect. A local friend is going to lend me his Hanna pH pen at some point so we'll see what the actual numbers are. Even so, it's a good start.
> 
> ...


Phil thanks for showing the actual amounts you are dosing. A couple of things caught my eye.

You are dosing 1 tsp KH2P04, which seems like a like. By comparison, I dose 1/8" in my 120G, although I do have a heavily stocked tank. What are your Phosphate readings before a water change? Do you find a benefit to higher Phosphates. 

Also I see you are providing very low doses of CSM+B (the Burr method:grin2? Once again, have you found benefits from the low dose? 

And you starting with very soft (pH 7.0) water. Do you ever try to raise KH a little? No trouble with pH swings with so little KH? 

Thanks and I should add the tank pics look great. I'm really looking forward to seeing how things fill in.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Greggz said:


> Phil thanks for showing the actual amounts you are dosing. A couple of things caught my eye.
> 
> You are dosing 1 tsp KH2P04, which seems like a like. By comparison, I dose 1/8" in my 120G, although I do have a heavily stocked tank. What are your Phosphate readings before a water change? Do you find a benefit to higher Phosphates.
> 
> ...


*Greggz*,

Thanks for catching those doses, they're actually 0.5 tsp KH2PO4 and 0.5 tsp K2SO4 at each dosing. To be honest, I don't test water parameters, especially NPK very often, if at all. I do have a pretty thorough Excel sheet for calculations though. That's one of the benefits of having some background in chemisty.  Based on the tissue nutrient analysis I did for my MS thesis I like to keep PO4 around 5 and have a general ratio of N between 5:1 and 10:1. I start the dosing week off at about 5:1 NO3O4 and assuming for 50% uptake it stays about there throughout the week. In the past I've run low PO4 like you but found better growth/health with more PO4. As long as the ratio stays between 5:1 and 10:1 things tend to do pretty well. 

Here's how I got those numbers. This is from my actual research so if anyone wants to try calling me out on not having the numbers, they can bite me. HAHAHA Val americana grown in nutrient amended soil and a VERY lean water column, had an average tissue N (tested as Ammonia) of 21.74 ppm. That's just N, not NO3, so tissue NO3 values would be about 99 ppm. Phosphorus (JUST P) had a mean ppm of 3.3, which nets about 10 ppm PO4. Looking at those two averages, the ratio of NO3 to PO4 is about 10:1. 

One of the things that I think contributed to the Trump Hair Tank of the past few weeks was me not having my formula sheet here at home and thinking I'd calculated a 2 tsp KNO3 dose rather than a 1 tsp dose. That was getting me in the area of 33 ppm NO3 EACH DOSE and got the N ratio waaaaaaaaay off. It might also explain why all my shrimp died. Light and CO2 were definite factors, but the sky high NO3 didn't help, I'm sure. 

Aside from the old discus tank I've never found dosing high amounts of PO4 to be a problem. The same with NO3, as far as plant health goes. Aesthetically though, yes to the high NO3. Stem plants tend to get "leggy/bullish" (have a larger space between nodes/leaves) when they get high N relative to P. So while high N isn't hurting the plant, it does make it less visually appealing to me. 

Here are my levels (ppm) as calculated per dose for a 100 gallon total system volume, assuming 98% purity for everything but the CaSO4, which is 100%.
NO3 - 16.75
PO4 - 5.17
K (total) - 20.36
Ca - 22.5
Mg - 6.42

As far as trace dosing goes, I'd rather add a little at a time and have to dose more frequently than add too much at one time. I'm only estimating 1/32 tsp as I'm using a little plastic spoon that came with some coral food and it looks to be about 1/32. It could be more or less than that, I haven't bothered testing it. As long as the plants aren't showing signs of Iron deficiency I'm happy. 

I do add 1 tsp Sodium Bicarbonate (USP grade) at each water change. In general, no, I haven't found any issues with keeping KH on the low side. The water here in my area is exceedingly soft in both Carbonate and General Hardness (both effectively 0 on my test kits) and I used to be religious about maintaining a strict 3dKH, but that got to be too much testing. Now I just add the same amount regularly and call it good. I'll run KH and GH tests tonight before and after the water change.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

My typical maintenance routine is:

Sun night - WC and full macro dose
Mon morning -Excel and traces
Tues morning -Excel
Wed morning - NPK and Excel
Wed night - Ca and/or Mg if it looks needed (Alt. reineckii 'mini' is my indicator plant)
Thurs morning - Excel
Thurs evening - Traces
Fri morning - NPK and Excel
Sat morning - Excel
Sun morning - Excel


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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

PEdwards said:


> LOL Bettas, the fish are in there already. I started out with 25 Espei Rasboras and am down to 7. Seems they like to jump. Thank God I have cats to eat them when they do. I'd hate for the Mrs. to complain about the living room smelling bad. There's a school of 9 African Banded Barbs and a group of 4 cories that a local TPT member needed to rehome in there too.
> 
> Thank you for the kind words about the scape. I've had to completely forego form in favor of function with this one and am not particularly happy with the way it looks. Someday it'll get a major face lift into a decent aquascape. For now though, it's all about growing the plants.


Shoot I didn't see the fish! ill have to look closer! :help::laugh2:
I know what you mean about the scaping thing, to me I love your scape as-is but its all about what you think. I had a perfect scape for my tank, then changed it. still not pleased... lol, maybe someday I can learn how to scape my fluval correctly, right now as you are, im all about the plants. since some will move to the upcoming 75


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> *Greggz*,
> Aside from the old discus tank I've never found dosing high amounts of PO4 to be a problem. The same with NO3, as far as plant health goes.


Phil thanks for the detailed reply above. I'm always curious as to others theories and experience. 

You might get a kick out of this. A while back one of my bags of Kh2P04 came mislabeled as Kn03. I was dosing 1 1/4 tsp of what I thought was Kn03 for a month or so. Tested my Phosphates and couldn't figure out why they were through the roof??? Finally made some test solutions and figured it out.

The funny thing is no ill effects at all. No algae bloom, and healthy plants. Go figure, right?


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

@Greggz

I just tested KH and GH, got 2dKH and 0dGH even after dosing 1tbsp/3tsp CaSO4 and MgSO4 24 hrs ago. Just put in another tsp of each and will see how things look tomorrow morning.


HAHAHA, funny thing that PO4-NO3 switcheroo. I've done similar things and had the same result. It really is hard to overdose PO4 in a healthy tank with lots of plants unless you're going WAAAAAAAAAY overboard. As long as there's sufficient NO3 present it seems to work out for some reason. Back in the day when we were still using stump remover for NO3 and enemas for PO4 whenever I didn't see much pearling I'd dose PO4 and the bubbles starting coming not too long after.


Interesting observation: The rotala stems that are getting near the surface have a good amount of bubbles on them but none of the other stems that are lower down do. I'm trying really really hard to fight the urge to up the light a little bit.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> @Greggz
> 
> I just tested KH and GH, got 2dKH and 0dGH even after dosing 1tbsp/3tsp CaSO4 and MgSO4 24 hrs ago. Just put in another tsp of each and will see how things look tomorrow morning.


Phil that's interesting. 

You have 100 gallons of water, I have about 110. I start with zero GH. For reference I dose 3 TBS CaS04 and 2 TBS MgS04 after a water change, so quite a bit more than you. I end up at about 4 dGH at the end of the week. 

Still I find it strange you still get a zero reading? Another one of the great mysteries of the planted tank!:grin2:

Looking forward to updates.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Greggz,

I think the issue is my substrate. It's supposed to soften water so I wouldn't be surprised if it's stripping the water column. I think I'm going to have to keep dosing heavily to make up for it until it's reached capacity. The good news is the Ca and Mg should be available to the plants' roots. We'll see how things go over time.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*2.15.17 chemistry update*-

After adding 1 tablespoon each of CaSO4 and MgSO4 this morning the GH was zero, nil, zilch, nada as of 6pm tonight. I just added two more heaping tbsp and will test again tomorrow once the Ca dissolves. I'm really starting to wonder of Aquasolum is a viable substrate for general plant keeping. If indeed it's stripping the GH from the water this quickly it may be great for really soft water species and is definitely good for shrimp, but it may not be so hot for just general plant keeping. The Java Fern, possibly the Buces, and a few of the stems from Burr that I can't name are showing signs of Chlorosis and the Crypts are melting more than is typical. My usual method of avoid "Crypt Rot" is upping Ca which seems to work fairly well. The poor R. indica is struggling even though it's in an area of high light and good flow. All of the stems were rotting at the bottom and had to be pushed down into the substrate so only the healthy upper portions were in the water column. If the Anubias start going chlorotic I'll be fairly confident it's the substrate. For the time being I'll be testing GH and adding as needed. If it remains zero then it may be time to rethink this current setup and possibly switching to a decorative sand. 

If GH increases even to 2 dGH and the plants still show negative signs it'll be time to up traces and NO3.


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## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> *2.15.17 chemistry update*I'm really starting to wonder of Aquasolum is a viable substrate for general plant keeping. If indeed it's stripping the GH from the water this quickly it may be great for really soft water species


I'm using Aquasoil and am having a similar experience with KH. Maybe I should be double checking the GH too. I had been trying to maintain my KH at 4 with Seachem Alk Buffer, but it kept going back to 1 after a few days. I found a thread on here with a couple people reporting the same experience. Maybe I should check on GH. I've just been adding some GH Booster and not testing.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

I'd be really interested in hearing your results Ben. Do you have access to lab equipment at work?


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## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> I'd be really interested in hearing your results Ben. Do you have access to lab equipment at work?


No. No access to lab equipment. I just used a regular test kit. I kept adding the Alk Buffer and testing the next day and not getting the result I was expecting. So I added a bunch of it once, tested a couple hours later, and the KH was 6. Then a couple days later it was about 3.5, and then a couple days later it was back to 1. That's when I started searching on here.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*2.16.17 Dumbass update*-

Something Ben said made me think, which can be good or bad depending on your point of view. I hopped on YouTube and found a video on how to use the GH test I have just to make sure I was doing it right. Turns out I wasn't. I'd been expecting it to go from green to yellow, not yellow to green (why they don't put that on the bottle, I don't know). Turns out my GH is now 23. Whups! At least we can rule out low Ca and Mg as contributing to the issues I'm seeing. 

Next hypotheses to test:
Hn = Phil isn't adding enough traces 
Ha1 = Phil isn't adding enough N. 
Ha2 = Observed tissue death was caused by the H2O2 bath and the plants are still recovering. 

Methods - Continue doing water changes and NPK dosing as usual, not adding any Ca or Mg until GH is 5 and adding approx. 1/8 tsp traces 2x/week for two weeks. If signs of chlorosis go away then it was likely an Fe issue and Hn will be accepted. If not, it's likely insufficient N, I'll up the dose of that for two weeks. If the plants improve then Ha1 will be accepted. If plants continue to shed leaves or roots of epiphytes don't show new growth then it's likely not an H2O2 bath issue and Ha2 will be rejected and another round of tests will begin.

Gotta love science even when it's frustrating. Hell, some of the most soul wrenching times in my life have been doing research. Science hurts (so good)! 

On the up side, everything but the R. indica is growing, albeit if a bit pale, and the P. erectus is doing really well. That's been a difficult plant for me so I'm happy on that front. The Crypt. wendtii 'Bronze' is still shedding leaves but that could be either the H2O2 treatment or my changing water parameters too quickly.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

With high GH, iron from DTPA would be available for longer than Iron from EDTA found/used in many trace mixes.
I have 12 dgh ,and found that adding a bit of Iron from DTPA ( www.Greenleaf aquariums) in addition to the iron EDTA in CSM+B helped the ludwigia repens ,and ehinodorus red flame appear more red.
I kept trying to boost Iron by increasing the CSM+B, but a plant guru told me that this could lead to toxicities possibly ,and that the iron in CSM+B (EDTA) does not hang around long in hard water. Heard anywhere from 2 to 4 day's.
As I only dose fertz once a week(low tech),I think I was limiting iron availalble and was suggested to source some iron from DTPA which is more suited for harder water.
After trying the DTPA the red hues to a few plant's seemed to improve and stay more red throughout the week (To my eye's anyway).
Course if one is dosing daily or every other day ,it might not make much of a difference ,but with once weekly fertilizing, I felt it could not hurt to try Fe from DTPA.
I still add CSM+B once a week day after macro's but I also add a bit of DTPA and will stick with it after noting improvement.
I have had anubia/crypt's just melt away after H202 bath for too long or too concentrated.
Now I just toss plant's with algae on leaves into tank holding long finned albino baby bristlenose and cherry shrimp,and they clean the leaves within a day or two.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> *2.16.17 Dumbass update*-
> 
> Something Ben said made me think, which can be good or bad depending on your point of view. I hopped on YouTube and found a video on how to use the GH test I have just to make sure I was doing it right. Turns out I wasn't. I'd been expecting it to go from green to yellow, not yellow to green (why they don't put that on the bottle, I don't know). Turns out my GH is now 23. Whups! At least we can rule out low Ca and Mg as contributing to the issues I'm seeing.


Phil that's a good one, and I appreciate your candor in putting it out there. I'm sure you are not the first.

Another tip that can help. If you having trouble discerning the colors, hold a piece of paper underneath the tube, and look directly down into it. For some reason makes the color easier to read. 

Looking forward to seeing where you go from here.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

roadmaster said:


> With high GH, iron from DTPA would be available for longer than Iron from EDTA found/used in many trace mixes.
> I have 12 dgh ,and found that adding a bit of Iron from DTPA ( www.Greenleaf aquariums) in addition to the iron EDTA in CSM+B helped the ludwigia repens ,and ehinodorus red flame appear more red.
> I kept trying to boost Iron by increasing the CSM+B, but a plant guru told me that this could lead to toxicities possibly ,and that the iron in CSM+B (EDTA) does not hang around long in hard water. Heard anywhere from 2 to 4 day's.
> As I only dose fertz once a week(low tech),I think I was limiting iron availalble and was suggested to source some iron from DTPA which is more suited for harder water.
> ...


Thanks for the tip Roadmaster. Our water here is normally very very low in GH and KH. The only reason GH got so high is human error and overdosing. I'm going to let it get back down to 4-5 dGH over the next few weeks as I do water changes. Until then I'm going to be upping the amount of CSM+B I'm adding. That being said, your info may help explain why I had issues with Texas Liquid Rock. I do have a bottle of Fe EDTA and Fe Gluconate mix laying around. That may be worth testing out at a later date.

I'm have no doubt that at least some, perhaps almost all, of the damage to the plants is due to the H2O2 bath. It's been a loooong time since I've done an H2O2 or Excel treatment for algae and likely overdid it in my extreme frustration. It's the chlorosis that I'm most concerned with and need to test one thing at a time to be sure. 

Cheers,
Phil


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Greggz said:


> Phil that's a good one, and I appreciate your candor in putting it out there. I'm sure you are not the first.
> 
> Another tip that can help. If you having trouble discerning the colors, hold a piece of paper underneath the tube, and look directly down into it. For some reason makes the color easier to read.
> 
> Looking forward to seeing where you go from here.


I'm glad you could get a laugh at my expense. 

It wasn't a matter of discerning colors. It was all me not remembering the instructions that came with the test which have since been lost. I may be smart, but boy am I absentminded. Now if only I were a professor...

At this point, I'm just going to increase trace addition and see what happens. Still trying really hard to not bump the lights up a bit. Once this whole nutrient thing is figured out I may increase the photoperiod by an hour or two from 6 to 7 or 8 hours. Barring that, I may bump the intensity up by 10% depending on how everything does over the next few weeks to a month. 

Candor to you is embarrassment to me.  I guess I shouldn't be too hard on myself though. This is the first non-experiment tank I've done since 2008 and almost all of the tech (other than using a sump) is new to me. I suppose I should just chalk all this up to "growing pains". At least it's a learning opportunity for all of us. I'm just waiting for Tom to come in and Preach the Gospel According to Thomas.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

@Greggz

I guess I'm just frustrated with myself at not being able to get this tank looking like my old one:


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> @Greggz
> 
> I guess I'm just frustrated with myself at not being able to get this tank looking like my old one:


Striking photo there Phil. Just a beautiful presentation. I would like to get mine to look like that as well.

How big was that tank? The Angels look tiny in it.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

It was just a 75 gallon. The angels were babies given to me by a local club member. Atlanta's got a lot of great hobbyists!

That wasn't the best aquascape in the world, but the plants were healthy. I was starting to explore dutch aquascaping and we had little to go in here in the US (even less than now). Thankfully I was able to contact Willem van Wezel and he gave me some good tips...right before the club started up a HAP and all thoughts of aquascaping went to [censored][censored][censored][censored] in favor of growing plants for HAP points. LOL This was in the HAP phase. One thing I liked most about it was the back wall...that's all A. nana 'petite'. For some reason it grew like mad there.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Quick link to an interesting site:

water-hardness


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

And another article for those interested at Wetwebmedia, Aquarium, Pond, Marine and Freshwater Fish, reef tanks, and Aquatics Information "In praise of hard water"


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*2.17.14 Photo Dump*-

Taken for weekly journal of response to treatments.















First ever Buce flower











One month (?) ago I removed all the moss and scrubbed every piece of wood pretty harshly. Shows how tough this stuff is. Hoping this time it ends up growing all over the wood even if it takes a while.










I had a thought on the way home. What if my typically high PO4 is helping cause an Fe problem? Inquiring minds want to know.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Moved a couple species around to improve overall circulation and get them better light and flow. You'll have to wait until next week to see though, muahahahaha.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*2.20.17 Water Quality update*-

Did a 50-60% water change last night and only added 1 tsp N, 1/8ish tsp P, 1 tsp K, 1 tsp NaHCO3, and 5mL Brightwell Ferrion (had it laying around from a while ago). This morning 1/8 tsp CSM+B was added.

GH and KH in the tank this morning, 20 and 2, respectively. GH and KH from the tap, 4 and 2, respectively. Prior to the water change last night pH bottomed out the test at 6 so the CO2 is still working. 

Other than not adding Ca and Mg, and reducing P by a lot, the only significant change I made to the system was unsealing the drip plate on the sump. CPR sumps have a different design than most and have a single housing box for both the intake and drip plate, think of a box with one side open. Until recently I'd been using a sturdy sheet of plastic and duct tape to keep it sealed, but that made it a PITA to clean the sponge in the unit and the tape on the bottom would come unstuck anyway. I haven't seen any measurable difference between sealed and unsealed so far as far as CO2 goes so far. Cleaning's going to be a hell of a lot easier now. 

All of these troubles, testing, adjusting, and what not has had me thinking about my first high tech tank with a sump. I barely knew anything about high tech systems and DIYed a super ghetto system (plastic trash can full of lava rock in a 20 long and CO2 into the pump), but somehow I got lucky and it worked really well. The plants grew like mad and the water looked like champagne at the end of the day. Looking back 17 years to that tank, I wonder if it's just my standards are higher now or if I know too much for my own good. Just when I think I'm doing things right something comes up that tells me I'm not. There have been times recently when I've thought about going back to the simplicity of that old tank "just to see". I guess it's a good thing I dropped so much money on the wood that I can't justify taking it out or I would probably be spending money I don't need to on replumbing the whole damn thing. 

The only pearling I see is on damaged leaves and the R. indica is still struggling.


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

I agree, sometimes I think I overcomplicate things in my mind and maybe making things more simple is the way forward.
I would chalk up a lot of your plant health to H2O2 dips as those can be pretty rough. I did a pretty hefty bath more than a dip a few months ago and it knocked the plants pretty hard. Even then there are quite a few plants in your photos which definitely look fine IMO.
I would give it some more time before making changes to the system again. Maybe things may start improving as they settle in. Since CO2 is now sorted, maybe things will start falling into place by themselves. But, those are just my stupid thoughts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

I'm pretty much with you Opare. I think I was a bit heavy handed with the H2O2, but given time everything will recover and do ok. As far as changes, I've started the new hypothesis testing regimen and will be sticking with it for the next two weeks. We'll see what observations will be made during that time. The hardest part is seeing plants with dying leaves and misshapen new growth (even with the high GH I've got) and wanting to do something about it. I keep telling myself that I am doing something for them (testing) and going slowly and methodically is the best thing I can be doing right now. I'll admit that part of it is ego and unrealistic expectations for myself. I'm supposedly an expert in aquatic plants and aquascaping, yet I've been having all of these troubles. My brain keeps telling me that I should be able to keep a beautifully aquascaped tank full of perfectly healthy plants. Being transparent and disclosing/sharing all of the struggles I've been having is important to me as a teacher, but it's rather embarrassing and incredibly frustrating (especially for a Type 2 bipolar who's a pathological perfectionist) for someone with my background. I'm sure my psychologist would be slapping me and saying "For the millionth time, you're only human." if she were here.

Heeding ones own advice is sometimes one of the hardest things to do. 

On the up side, plants are growing, looking healthier than they were (for the most part) a couple weeks ago, and there's hardly any algae other than some GSA here and there.


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

*Thus Sprach Zarathustra, 80 gallon high tech build*

I heavily sympathise with you. Although I don't have nearly as much knowledge and experience as you do, I would still become easily frustrated as sometimes my results were not in-line with how much I felt I knew about it all. I think we are all our biggest critics and we can just become too hypercritical, and start to make rash decisions because of it. Sometimes it is best to take a deep breath and accept not everything goes to plan, but things do improve eventually! As you said we are all human and make mistakes. I do think this tank is on the way up and the scape itself is great anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

PEdwards said:


> One thing I liked most about it was the back wall...that's all A. nana 'petite'. For some reason it grew like mad there.


Did you use plastic mesh or a big giant foam pad to grow the wall? i kinda wanna try something similar if i rescape one day lol


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

@SingAlongWithTsing

I made a textured foam wall out of eggcrate and spray foam then painted it with black Rust O Leum. Using painted foam sheets is an old school Dutch trick that works very well. All you have to do is find a staple that'll fit your plant, push it onto the wall and you're done. In this case I siliconed the sheet to the glass, but if you have a thick enough rim and/or dense enough substrate you can just push it against the pane and let the rim and substrate hold it in place. This tank had Amazonia and that's not heavy enough to keep the foam from lifting up. If I were able to do it over again I wouldn't have made the baffle on the right and just let the filter intake hang against the back wall. It didn't work as well as I'd hoped and took up too much valuable real estate in that corner.


Here's an old 225 I had in Texas that I did the same thing with, only on all sides.


Here it is 9 months later. Pardon the nasty plants, I was testing different soil and soil+clay mixtures.


Gratuitous sneak pic of one of Amano's tanks at Sumida Aquarium.


Attaching foam panels to a 300 gallon.




Side/back panel, blowtorched foam and Rust O Leum.


Almost finished job and starting to grow plants.
 

Regards,
Phil


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

I recently had back glass of four foot long tank covered with anubia bottom to top, via suction cups off old thermometer's and airline tubing holder's.(petco)
It all came about after I tried to move a piece of wood against the back glass and discovered that the anubia attached to the wood had also attached itself to the back glass.
All was going well until I introduced more light needy plants and I began to increase the lighting to encourage more growth (don't we all ?)
Anyhow,the algae quickly began to form on the leaves of the anubia and spread fairly quickly from bottom to top.
I removed the anubia and continued to try to grow more demanding plant's but they just could not do with what little CO2 was available naturally(non CO2 enhanced) and four T5 bulbs at varying height and photoperiod's.
Went back to four T8 bulb's and waiting for more anubia to grow in donor tank to once again attach them to the back glass of the 80 gal.
Another month or two,and I will be ready to repeat the covered back glass look on the 80 gal.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

That's a good idea roadmaster. I'll have to try it. Thanks!


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

PEdwards said:


> That's a good idea roadmaster. I'll have to try it. Thanks!


 Saw another similar method using nylon mesh to stuff plant's into/on to ,and mesh was attached via suction cups at all four corner's of back or side glass.
I may visit Hobby Lobby here and see what they have and contemplate some more.:wink2:
With brand new set up and empty tank,me think's the mesh method would be easier than when the tank is full and planted out.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

roadmaster said:


> Saw another similar method using nylon mesh to stuff plant's into/on to ,and mesh was attached via suction cups at all four corner's of back or side glass.
> I may visit Hobby Lobby here and see what they have and contemplate some more.:wink2:
> With brand new set up and empty tank,me think's the mesh method would be easier than when the tank is full and planted out.


That's how I did the moss wall on the 75. I sandwiched the moss between two sheets, zip tied them together, then used the J-hooks on the suction cups to attach them, and voila, instant moss wall. I bit of advice from experience- up end the J hooks on the lower cups so the open side is downwards. It works well as an easy to remove deal. If possible, really rough up the front panel to give the moss good attachment points. You could also use a single roughed up sheet and scrape wads of moss on the rough side to get small bits attached. 

Cheers,
Phil


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*2.25.17 Update*-

After two weeks of no additional Ca and Mg and increased traces most plants are doing well with lack of improvement or decline in some species. R. rotundifolia continues to struggle and H. pinnatifida is barely holding on. Most leaves show signs of spot necrosis and all but the newest leaves are almost completely chlorotic. I'm a bit stumped as the Hygrophila was moved to an area of higher circulation but similar light to what it was getting before. The Ludwigia Burr gave me got moved slightly to an area of higher light but hasn't shown much in the way of improved growth. The A. r. 'mini', Acmella, and another stem species I can't recall are slowly growing and look healthy overall. I added some S. repens I had growing in a DSM/emersed tank/terrarium and it's grown noticeably in a week. Also added a few plants grown from seeds one of my bosses got from a Chinese dealer. I have no earthly idea what they are, but they did well in the nano at the office so we'll see how they do in this tank.

Current supplementation regime:
Light: 50% for 6 hrs/day
CO2: 25 ppm or more (test bottoms out at 6) starting at a pH of 6.9-7.0.
Primary Macros- 1 tsp KNO3, 1/2 tsp KH2PO4, and 1/2 tsp K2SO4 3x weekly. 
Secondary Macros - No Ca or Mg, Fe added by 1/8 tsp CSM+B 3x weekly.
Micros and traces - 1/8 tsp 3x weekly.
Fish get fed 1x daily with enough left over for the Cories to get their fill.

Looking back to the hypotheses of two weeks ago:

For most species the additional traces seem to have helped, but not conclusively enough for me say low Fe was the cause. Hn: PLAUSIBLE

Most species are showing only slow growth with some minor chlorosis persisting among a couple species. The slow growth may be due to lower lighting, but the persistent general chlorosis when GH has been high leads me to think N is still low even though I've calculated an 18 ppm dose. Ha1: PLAUSIBLE

Most individual plants that got the H2O2 bath have shown signs of new growth and recovery. Hn2: Accepted.


Steps going forward for the next two weeks-
Increase NO3 to 1.5 tsp, add 2 tsp Ca and 1 tsp Mg, increase K to 1 tsp, cut PO4 down to 1/8 tsp, keep traces the same, and increase photoperiod to 8 hours. If growth rates don't improve noticeably after one week I will increase light intensity to 60%

I'm seriously considering getting the 120 degree TIR lenses for my lights to get better spread but at the cost of PAR. This may necessitate increasing light intensity to 65%.

Cheers,
Phil


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

I think you should cut P down to a more reasonable level, doses of 1 ppm or so. If Im reading correctly, 1/2 tsp is like 5 ppm per dose?

I tried really high P for a short period of time and it wreaked havoc on several species, H pinna was one of them. Straight up killed it.

Im not sure whether it was the high P level itself, or if so much P was zapping all the Fe and possibly other micros, especially since I dose very low micros to begin with. 

Either way it was not a good thing, ymmv.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

PO4 + Fe3+ binding is something I've been thinking about over the past couple of days. It's certainly worth trying out, especially since the Hygro was from you and this is my first time growing it submersed.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

A while back I promised a post listing my mistakes as a learning tool for others and to show even experienced folks aren't immune to problems. The List of Shame starts below.

1. I was too focused on the original aquascape to take the time to consider the effects of all the new tech I'd accumulated. Sumps weren't new to me, but this one was. CO2 reactors weren't new to me, but this one was. High intensity lighting wasn't new to me, but these LEDs were. I assumed it would all work together like similar setups in the past.

2. I underestimated the amount of light the LEDs were putting out. 

3. I overestimated the amount of CO2 getting into the system and let "gurus" advice influence some decision making rather than following my own council. 

4. I placed the hardscape and slowest growing plants directly in the area of highest illumination and the stem plants in the area of lowest flow. That's what I get for trying to follow how Amano did things! It worked well for him and not so well for me. 

5. I let my impatience and quick temper get the better of me resulting in some drastic changes in a short period of time.

6. I let my curiousity get the better of me. This was supposed to be a display only aquarium and it turned into a semi-test system anyway. Now it's time to get things back on track and stable.

7. I lost the directions to my GH test kit. That's for you @Greggz 

8. To summarize, I failed to follow my own advice.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Phil good to see an update. Must be therapeutic listing your wall of shame and cleansing those issues. 

Now on to the future. 

Read your dosing closely. Like Burr said, still seems like a lot of P04. I'll look forward to seeing any effect when you lower it. I noticed you are upping the KN03. Seems like a lot to dose, about 18ppm. Have you had success in the past with high levels of KN03??

And keep the updates coming. I'm enjoying following this as you tune everything in. 

As a side note, before I went higher tech with my tank, I read where someone said it takes a year to get everything tweaked. I laughed. I was naive.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Greggz,

One of the tricks we used to use back in the day was upping NO3 to help get rid of extra PO4 in case N was the limitation. I DID say I was going to up the N dose before Burr convinced me to drop PO4, so I can't take that back.  I'm fairly confident that bumping N up a bit for a little while won't throw things out of whack. I also want to make sure the system isn't actually N deficient. Fe and N deficiencies can look really similar sometimes. I'm going to throw proper testing methods to the wind and change N AND P at once! </panicensues> I really think I'm getting close and just want to get settled down into the routine of dosing, cleaning, trimming, mailing trimmings, doing water changes, taking pictures, posting said pictures, and dosing again.

Yeah, it takes a few months to settle in and a year isn't out of reason for getting fully mature. I'm an outlier...it's taken me 40 and I'm not there yet.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*2.26.17 Pre-WC Photo Dump*-

Switched up some things with the camera and shut the filter off. Still at the "really fancy point and shoot" stage, but learning and progress are being made. 









This Crypt is quickly becoming my favorite plant in the tank. Can't wait until it hits critical mass and explodes.




New plant that I grew from some Asian seeds. Not sure what it is yet, but it's been doing well in the tank at work so I decided to bring some home.


S. repens that got tossed in there a week ago.


Sad panda 



@burr740 What's that green plant? It's really started taking off now that I get a good look at it.


Little lily lost in leaves



@burr740 What're these two plants? Is the smaller of the two Acmella? You folks and your new-fangled species. I can't keep up!




Another promising species started from seed. Have no idea what this one is either.


Poor Rotala.


Best shot I could get of the P. erectus, it's in a really tough location for photographing.


More Ludwigia!


Overhead shot to see how fast that S. repens grows. It's a race between that and the L. brasiliensis to see which one takes over the foreground first. At this rate I'm tempted to bet on the Staurogyne.


Second competitor for King of the Foreground



Thanks for watching,
Phil


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Tank is looking great man, awesome rebound.

This one is Acmella repens. To the right, the larger, brighter green is Limnophila rugosa











Nelsonia canescens


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Phil for a guy documenting a lot of problems, it looks like an awful lot is going right too.

Nice pictures, and it looks like things are starting to come together for you.

With the fairly shallow tank, some of those stems will be to the surface before you know it. The Nelsonia canescens gets to the surface of my 26" deep tank quickly. I see a lot of plant trimming in your future!


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Thanks for the IDs and kind words Burr.

Greggz,

I've been known to set unreasonably high expectations for myself from time to time, just ask my doc. It doesn't help that I'm a frustrated researcher who lost his chance at a PhD when funding dropped. My aquariums are the closest thing I'm able to get to any sort of research these days and are the #1 area I expect the most from myself so if things aren't running next to 100% right, it's a problem. Guess I'll have to set up more tanks...for you know...replication...yeah, that's it. Someday I'll learn how to settle down and be satisfied with things. It's still in process though. 

Trimming? I'm going to let this thing get as bushy as......santa's eyebrows. 


Yeah, lots of trimming for me. Thank God it's shallow.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

So I found a really nice large single piece of wood at work today that would look great in the tank, open up some room, and give it an old school feel. I'm trying really hard to resist the temptation, but as two of my favorite sayings go:

"Resistance is futile." - The Borg
"I can resist anything except temptation." -Oscar Wilde 

I may just nab and soak it for future use. Grabbing good hardscape material while it's available is good practice. It's too bad I don't have a smaller tank, it would be killer for a biotope.

Regards,
Phil


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

3.6.17 Non-photo update-

Everything except the N. canescens has improved. That poor plant just isn't doing so hot in this setup. I've upped Ca and Mg back to 1 tbsp, but am only dosing 1x/wk at this point. If the Nelsonia continues to go necrotic then I'll up the dose to 2x/wk. I took the R. rotundifolia out to use in a wabi kusa.. Once the stems got closer to the light they started behaving normally. Unfortunately only a couple stems managed to get that far so the whole batch got yoinked. The Ludwigia and H. pinn have been behaving similarly so I grabbed the small and straggly ones for the WK and left the larger stems in the tank. Some of the moss bunches near the surface started getting a little algae so they got a heavy trim. Can you call it a trim when you just grab a good pinch and yank it off? I may do that to a few of the bunches soon. They're starting to get a bit too wild and I want to encourage more growth along the wood. For me, this is a good problem to have.  

On the upside the P. erectus is starting to take off. It's doing better in this setup than I've ever had it do before submerged. OMG have the Anubias started throwing off some roots! That's just the look I'm going for so I'm pretty happy. You win some, you lose some I guess. 

The unknown plants grown from seed are both doing well. Once I get a large bunch of each I'll start sending them out to folks. That may take a while unless I tear down the tank at work and transplant them all, which is a likely prospect.

I finally ordered the 120 degree lenses and have high hopes for the more diffuse light in the middle and greater spread. EcoTech gives a 36" spread at 8" above the water so dropping the pucks a foot (still 12" above water) is the most likely first step. Given the response of the Rotala, Ludwigia, and B. monneri (all in similar locations relative to the light) I think increasing light slowly and carefully needs to happen. I really love Ludwigia and Rotala and want to make sure they can be kept in this tank. 

Current dosing as of this morning:
NO3: 2 tsp 3x/wk
PO4: 1/4 tsp after water changes then 1/8 tsp 2x/wk
K: 1.5 tsp 3x/wk 
Ca: 1 tbsp 1-2x/wk as appearances dictate. I'm beginning to think CaSO4 isn't as effective a Ca source as good old CaCl2. Will be going back to CaCl2 when the CaSO4 runs out.
Mg: 1 tbsp 1-2x/wk as appearances dictate.
Traces: 1/4 tsp after water changes then 1/8 tsp 2x/wk

Light: 50% intensity for 8 hrs/day
CO2: 30+ ppm based on pH drop


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> Current dosing as of this morning:
> NO3: 2 tsp 3x/wk
> PO4: 1/4 tsp after water changes then 1/8 tsp 2x/wk
> K: 1.5 tsp 3x/wk
> ...


Phil I find your dosing pretty fascinating. Looks like N03 is up even more, P04 is down, and lots of K. 

Question for you. Do you ever test your parameters to see where they are at the end of the week? Would be curious to see where your N03 ends up. I'm guessing the answer is you don't care???

Have you ever dosed very lean to see the effect of going the other way??


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Strange that the Nelsonia is acting up. It's been a bullet proof weed for everyone I know who's had it (granted that's a very short list though  )

That big dose of P and traces on WC day, any concerns there about interfering w/each other? A better idea might be do the traces next day just in case.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Greggz said:


> Phil I find your dosing pretty fascinating. Looks like N03 is up even more, P04 is down, and lots of K.
> 
> Question for you. Do you ever test your parameters to see where they are at the end of the week? Would be curious to see where your N03 ends up. I'm guessing the answer is you don't care???
> 
> Have you ever dosed very lean to see the effect of going the other way??


That's a good question and the answer is no, I don't. I don't have the money right now to get all the kits I'd need at a level of quality I'd trust. I've been thinking about contacting the Ag Extension to see about getting water tests done to see where things end up. As far as dosing lean, I've been doing that for the past week or so and am seeing what I consider to be negative reactions; especially in the Nelsonia and H. pinn. Those are two species I really want to keep so it's back to higher dosing, but not quite as high as before.





burr740 said:


> Strange that the Nelsonia is acting up. It's been a bullet proof weed for everyone I know who's had it (granted that's a very short list though  )
> 
> That big dose of P and traces on WC day, any concerns there about interfering w/each other? A better idea might be do the traces next day just in case.


Not really concerned about the P+Fe interaction on WC day. I've done some research into that lately and the tank doesn't really fit the bill for major problems. What I've been able to glean is Fe will stay in the +3 form in environments with a low KH and pH below 6.5, which DOES fit the bill between WC. However, since I do WC in the evening after the CO2 is shut off the pH goes up close to 7 and the KH is highest at that point. I do the big doses just in case and to be on the safe side I add them an hour or so apart on WC day then on off days during the week. As Bill Nye says, "I'm skeptical, but open minded.". I don't expect it to be happening at a significant level, but it's not out of the realm of possibility. 

As for the Nelsonia, I'm baffled. If everything in the tank was reacting the same way I'd say there was a systemic problem, but since it's pretty much just that one reacting this way I'm stumped. In the vein of following my own advice of "When in doubt, add more nutrients." I've done just that to make sure it's getting as much as I can reasonably give it. At this point I don't care which change helps, as long as something does. 

*To both*,

Aside from those two species still getting strange loss of leaf tissue or dying older leaves I'm thinking there's not enough light getting to the perimeter. The current plan is to dose nutrients on the high side so the plants can soak up as much as possible before changing over to the wide angle lenses which should get more light to the perimeter zones. I want everything to have all the nutrients that they can get stored up to help make the adjustment to more light input without risking significant problems. Just about everything has good bubbling on the underside of the leaves when I get home and the pH drop is where it should be so I don't expect CO2's an issue. Unless I start seeing systemic negative reactions or a stupid increase in algae, lighting is the next thing to get dialed in. Up until now I've lived by the adage that "Coverage is more important that intensity" and with a single exception have only used fluorescent lighting to be able to maximize coverage. The new lenses should go a long way toward improving coverage so the next steps are balancing light to CO2 input. After that it'll be fine tuning nutrients once everything is growing to my standards.

I said this in Strungout's thread and it's worth restating here: One must risk failure to learn and grow. As frustrating as this whole process has been for me, I think I'm learning new things and revising things I'd previously learned. You two have been a valued sounding board and source of input through all this. Outside eyes often see things I miss or have ingrained from previous, and very different, systems, thank you. Please keep it up.

Regards,
Phil


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> Aside from those two species still getting strange loss of leaf tissue or dying older leaves I'm thinking there's not enough light getting to the perimeter.


Phil I think you are onto something there. It would be very interesting to see what your Par values at various spots in the tank. 

I have no experience with LED lights, but recently tested the Par values on my tank with T5H0 lighting. I think the biggest revelation was how quickly Par dropped off once you got away from the center (the most overlapping light in the tank). At the outside ends of the tank, the readings start dropping off quickly on about the last quarter of the bulb. My Par at the surface goes from 172 to 100 in the last foot on either side. 

Funny thing is it made perfect sense based on what I was already observing.


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## ScubaSteve (Jun 30, 2012)

Looking good PEdwards!


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Greggz said:


> Phil I think you are onto something there. It would be very interesting to see what your Par values at various spots in the tank.
> 
> I have no experience with LED lights, but recently tested the Par values on my tank with T5H0 lighting. I think the biggest revelation was how quickly Par dropped off once you got away from the center (the most overlapping light in the tank). At the outside ends of the tank, the readings start dropping off quickly on about the last quarter of the bulb. My Par at the surface goes from 172 to 100 in the last foot on either side.
> 
> Funny thing is it made perfect sense based on what I was already observing.


I really hope the majority of "issues" I'm seeing or think I'm seeing are light related. I suppose the H. pinn and Nelsonia could be reacting to lower than optimal light, which may...may, explain the dying lower leaves but I would expect everything to look ok, just be slower growing with the CO2 and nutrients the tank gets. I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.



ScubaSteve said:


> Looking good PEdwards!


Thanks Steve!


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

@Greggz,

I just measured PPFD and got 136 directly under the light and 20 in the corners, side, and front/back panes...on the surface. I got similar readings at substrate level at 75% intensity.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

@burr740,

Killing the Nelsonia is killing me. What's your GH, what chemicals do you use to add Ca and Mg, how much of each, and at what frequency?

Thanks,
Phil


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> @burr740,
> 
> Killing the Nelsonia is killing me. What's your GH, what chemicals do you use to add Ca and Mg, how much of each, and at what frequency?
> 
> ...


Phil, hopefully Burr can help shed some light.

Now while we are on the subject of light (nice segue, huh?), based on your post above about Par values, and from what I can see of the location of the Nelsonia in the tank, is it simply not getting enough light? Have you considered moving it more directly under your fixture? Just a thought.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Strange that the Nelsonia of all things is struggling.

My water is 100% tap, KH is ~5.5, GH is 50 ppm Ca and 4 ppm Mg. Then I add another 7 ppm Mg via Epsom salt at water changes.

I believe @Greggz grew it fine in his liquid rock water before doing the RO thing. And @Saxa Tilly grows it like a weed in pretty soft water.

So I really dont think its related to hardness. Can you post some close up pics?


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Greggz,

Yeah, I've definitely considered it and it may just happen soon. I want to make sure I've got the chemistry right before giving it more light and pushing it's metabolism up. That may happen soon anyways whether I want to or not when the lenses come in. 

<edit> Whelp, the lenses are scheduled to be delivered today. Do or die time will be coming soon as I've got to get them installed this weekend before heading off to a trade show next week. 10 days away from the tank...I wonder how it will fare. </edit>

I've also considered cutting the side shoots and putting them in one of the SSS tanks to grow emersed. Those little guys are turning out to be superb struggling stem species saving and storage systems. I just wish I had more room for more and larger SSS tanks. I've been enjoying the semi-terrarium thing more and more lately. They're so easy to care for and require little in the way of money output; especially if I can scrounge sample stuff from work. 

Cheers,
Phil


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

burr740 said:


> Strange that the Nelsonia of all things is struggling.
> 
> My water is 100% tap, KH is ~5.5, GH is 50 ppm Ca and 4 ppm Mg. Then I add another 7 ppm Mg via Epsom salt at water changes.
> 
> ...


Burr,

I'm currently running 2kh, with 20ppm Ca and 5ppm Mg, as calculated, don't have individual tests. I may have overestimated the density and purity of the actual materials used which would knock those calculations down a bit. That's why I dose on the high side, to account for the actual levels being lower, but still within accepted concentrations.

I'd say my system is pretty soft compared to yours and Greggz's. I've got no idea what Saxa Tilly's water is like.



AR "mini" right next to the Nelsonia


L. rugosa in the far corner opposite the Nelsonia, but still in the same place relative to the puck so they get the same relative amount of light based on my PPFD readings the other day. Looks to me like it's doing well. Not sure how dark it's supposed to get.


Acmella doing well


Lonely Ludwigia


Unknown plant #1. It was the size of the small ones (just planted them today) two weeks ago. It's 8-9 inches tall now. 


Unknown plant #2. It was the size of the small ones to the right (just planted them today) two weeks ago. It's about 6" tall now. The P. erectus is thriving. Had to trim the largest/tallest stem tonight to keep it from breaching the surface. The little stems are side shoots from the big stem.



Cheers,
Phil


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Phil nice pictures of your plants. 

All in all, I'd say things are looking pretty darn good, lot's of happy looking plants there.

Hopefully all fare well while you are away.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Thanks Greggz,

I'm sure I'll come back to a tank full of lush and healthy plants after being gone for so long. That's usually the case.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*3.11.17 Update*-

The lenses are coming, the lenses are coming...well, actually they're already here. It looks like I'll be doing an inadvertent comparison run between the standard 80 and 120 degree lenses. The last screw on the 2nd light was stripped just enough to prevent changing the lens. Once I get back from the Global Pet Expo next week it'll be time to put EcoTech's customer service to the real test. Hopefully speaking with one of their owners/reps at the show will help expedite things. 

Things I've noticed: 1- the wide angle does a lot better job of blending the different light to make a whiter looking light. 2- looking at it is bright AF, moreso than the 80 degree.

I also got a nice little care package from Greggz of some beautiful cuttings, thank you! I still can't remember what they are, but they're nice. I hope the Proserpinaca does well. It's the only one I put in back. Most of his plants ended up in the front to get as much light and circulation as possible. 

Oh yeah, and the tank got a full rescape. Since I'm going to be gone for 10 days I had to do a major trim so I figured I may as well move the wood around to get better circulation. That ended up freeing a lot of room, especially in the front and left. Even so, I think I'm going to have to take some of the wood out eventually, it's just taking up too much real estate. Now that I can't do the scape I'd originally planned it's time to start thinking about the next step.

I'm not sure the pictures are good enough, but you may notice a lack of Crypts in the midground. I'd been having issues with shadows from the wood taking up a lot of light-space in the last arrangement so this time I shoved most of the Crypts in the shadowed areas to make room for the more light-loving species.

Oh yeah #2, I was so pissed off with that damned screw that I ended up finally cleaning all the aquarium crap out of the living room. That made the wife very happy. Plus, it gives me more room to take pictures.























80 degree lens


120 degree lens


That's all folks!


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

PAR is currently equal between the two fixtures. 2,880 ish right under the puck, 100ish at the surface under the puck, and 25ish at the substrate in the front corners. I'm thinking that an eventual drop to about 12" above surface with a slight increase in intensity will net some benefits. That won't happen until the 2nd fixture is fixed though.

<edit> added a 0 to the PAR rating under the puck...288 is a lot less than 2880.  </edit>


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## Saxa Tilly (Apr 7, 2015)

Nelsonia (or whatever that is) does not seem to care about hardness. I have it in 100% RO lightly reconstituted as well as in Los Angeles county tap water - liquid rock. Does well in both tanks. 

However, your Limno rugosa is better looking than mine. 

The plants from seeds look like mystery Hygros.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Saxa Tilly said:


> Nelsonia (or whatever that is) does not seem to care about hardness. I have it in 100% RO lightly reconstituted as well as in Los Angeles county tap water - liquid rock. Does well in both tanks.
> 
> However, your Limno rugosa is better looking than mine.
> 
> The plants from seeds look like mystery Hygros.


Now I'm really stumped about the Nelsonia. Let's hope it does better in its new location. It may end up on the list of plants that don't do too well for me, but I'm not ready to give up yet. Thanks for the kind words about the Limno, it's a really nice plant.

I'm thinking the same thing about the mystery plants. Hopefully I'll have enough to send out for ID. A flower or two would be really nice as well. The thinner leaved one with dark striations is turning into a possible contender for aquascaping. One cool thing about this species is the seeds will germinate under water with no problem. I accidentally got some in my sump and they started sprouting on the main pump's prefilter. Not sure about the other one yet; it's shooting for the surface pretty fast so it might be more well suited for paludariums, ripariums, or open top low tech systems. I'm hoping it breaches the surface while I'm away so we can see what it's like above water.

Cheers,
Phil


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

3.16.17 photo dump- 

I'm heading out for a work trip until the 26th and am leaving all the tanks in the care of my wife. I figured it would be a wise thing to get some before-trip and after-trip pictures. I trust her ability to follow directions and am not worried about some disaster from lack of care, but I do want to record what happens when I'm gone for that length of time. 

Just after putting @Greggz's cuttings in. They're hard to see, but I think I got some closeups in the massive photo taking binge.


Why yes, here they are!










Greggz, I'm fairly confident I've figured out why your mermaid weed grows more broad leaves then @Burr's; they're different species. Look up Proserpinaca pectinata (Combleaf Mermaidweed) then Proserpinaca palustris (Marsh Mermaidweed). P. pectinata grows much finer (pectinate, ergo pectinatus) leaflets than palustris One of these things is not like the other! Be careful, both species are called "Mermaid Weed" in the trade and most folks don't realize they're two species. I'm pretty sure you and I've got. P. palustris.





Mystery plant #1- I hesitate to call it by any genus or species name until I've had it identified. Thankfully I've got seeds to go with the plant tissue.












Nelsonia still just holding on




More of Greggz's Ludwigia


Top-down of whateverthehelltheseare






Still my favorite plant in the tank, but the P. erectus is quickly catching up




Hmmm, what could be wrong with the Buces, I wonder? Too close to the lights? Roots still not recovered from the H2O2? Screwed up nutrient supplementation? All of the above?




The Anubias don't seem to mind. In fact, I think I saw one flipping the Buces the root.




That big piece of wood I mentioned a few posts back. Finally got it smuggled out of the warehouse. There's a lot of potential, but I need more rocks and stuff to be able to play with more angles. When I put it up to the tank it fit the space nicely. I'm thinking it would look really nice covered in H. pinn.









KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!.....get out of the photo frame!




That's all for now (but look for equally large updates to my other journals). I'll have my laptop with me on the trip, so I'll be watching you guys. No trashing the place while I'm gone.

Cheers,
Phil


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> Greggz, I'm fairly confident I've figured out why your mermaid weed grows more broad leaves then @Burr's; they're different species. Look up Proserpinaca pectinata (Combleaf Mermaidweed) then Proserpinaca palustris (Marsh Mermaidweed). P. pectinata grows much finer (pectinate, ergo pectinatus) leaflets than palustris One of these things is not like the other! Be careful, both species are called "Mermaid Weed" in the trade and most folks don't realize they're two species. I'm pretty sure you and I've got. P. palustris.


Phil, I agree with you there. As you will see, this mermaid weed grows like mad, and develops a thick stem and tough leaves. Tops get big 3" to 4" diameter. Also throws side shoots regularly.

I hope that the other cuttings do well for you. Have a great trip and look forward to seeing how things go while you are away.


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## d33pVI (Oct 28, 2015)

From Amano to Gygax, that's a well rounded backdrop of source books. Tank ain't bad either!


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## Pat24601 (Mar 4, 2017)

Great pics as you develop your tank! Looking great!


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Greggz said:


> Phil, I agree with you there. As you will see, this mermaid weed grows like mad, and develops a thick stem and tough leaves. Tops get big 3" to 4" diameter. Also throws side shoots regularly.
> 
> I hope that the other cuttings do well for you. Have a great trip and look forward to seeing how things go while you are away.


So far all the cuttings are doing well except for a single stem that may not have liked the cold. They're looking great in their current spot and I look forward to seeing them when I get back. 



d33pVI said:


> From Amano to Gygax, that's a well rounded backdrop of source books. Tank ain't bad either!


Thanks Deep6, I'm a bit of a geek in a few realms...no pun intended. I used to have a lot more in the way of RPG books but had to get rid of most of them during a move. From about 14 until 20, when I got into aquariums, all my gift money went toward collecting different game books. One of my hobbies at one point was collecting all of the 2nd Ed. Forgotten Realms materials. I think I have them all at this point. There may be one or two old old old ones out there that I've missed.



Pat24601 said:


> Great pics as you develop your tank! Looking great!


Thanks Pat!


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

> Hmmm, what could be wrong with the Buces, I wonder? Too close to the lights? Roots still not recovered from the H2O2? Screwed up nutrient supplementation? All of the above?


Probably just do to new soil, nothing really can do but water changes, leaves will still melt off until the plants adjust submersed.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*3.26.17 Update*-

Finally made it home after an exhausting, but exciting week at a huge pet industry trade show. Seeing old friends and all of their cool new stuff was certainly a highlight. Snagging free samples of TC plants to test and a new double output regulator was pretty nice too.  The Mrs. did a bang up job of caring for the tanks so I came home to much less algae than I'd expected. There was the anticipated outbreak of "Trump Hair Algae", as my wife calls it; the diatoms I've been battling for so long, but I think I may have figured out a cause. Misaki followed my regular dosing regime to the letter so that's a constant and the lighting wasn't changed at all. HOWEVER, the substrate in the front left corner got seriously disturbed/moved which undoubtedly caused a release of nutrients into the tank. Thankfully the alga was mostly confined to the Java Fern and moss with only little bits in other places that was easily sucked out. The remedy? Pull out all the ferns to give to a friend requesting a lot of it and do a serious thinning/removal on the moss. With a little luck, this will set it back enough that normal cleaning will take care of it. 

The only disappointing thing is some of Gregg's stems kicked the bucket as well as about half the S. repens. Not sure why it happened, but there's a good bit of everything still left so nothing was completely lost.

Thanks to a friend who's recently started repping for Denerle I was able to get a bunch of new stuff to test so the empty space in the substrate is getting taken up bit by bit. 

List of species; some new to me and others not. Either way I look forward to working with them to see how they compare to other TC plants I've used. Pics will be forthcoming when the tank lights come on.

A. reineckii 'mini'
A. reineckii 'Lila' (testing these two to see what the differences are)
C. wendtii 'Kompact'
C. species 'Flamingo'
C. cordata (LOVE this plant and am really happy to have it again)
E. pusilla
H. callitrichoides
M. hirsuta
R. indica
P. erectus

I'm curious to see how the P. erectus and Crypts do compared to the stuff already in there. I hope that the substrate isn't too light to keep the foreground species down if the Corys decide they want to snuffle around them. 

Some of the HC and E. pusilla went into Super Simple Setup 1 to grow emersed just in case.

Cheers,
Phil


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*3.26.17 Update 2, admitting defeat*-

After doing a major water change and algae suck I noticed that the Trump Hair was a lot more pervasive than I'd originally thought. After three outbreaks the ref called TKO and the bout was finished. Algae 1, Phil 0. 

The result was I took out all of the wood, gave two pieces a serious scrub and wash routine, attached all of the A. 'petite' to one and all the H. pinn to the other. Those are the only pieces in there and they're strictly for structure. All the buces got pulled and put in SSS2. If they grow, great. If they die, too bad. Their roots were too tangled and the algae got in there really well. All the stems got a good wash and rub down, and those with algae on them got hacked back. If I see any part of any plant with that crap on it it's getting removed. Full scorched earth.

Everything got replanted while doing an 80% WC with the stems finally able to be directly under the pucks. Thankfully the Dennerle package I got had a lot of foreground species in it so there's not an obscene amount of empty space. I hope all these changes mean better circulation and better plant growth. Time will tell.

Before-















After-

















New plants-






















There we have it. An FTS will happen when the water's cleared enough to get a decent one.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Wow Phil whatever that algae is came on fast! Sorry to see that happened. 

Any idea of the root cause? I had a much milder case like that when I ran out of CO2 once. Just curious how you think that came on so quick?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Damn dude, that was fast!

I like how you just ripped it all up and started over.  Best thing to do sometimes.

Hopefully the cause will soon run its course, whatever it is. I still think it's something to do with that substrate.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

New layout looks good. You have any Amanos in there? Pretty sure they'll destroy that type of algae. I'd add a bunch of them.


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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Greggz said:


> Wow Phil whatever that algae is came on fast! Sorry to see that happened.
> 
> Any idea of the root cause? I had a much milder case like that when I ran out of CO2 once. Just curious how you think that came on so quick?


This particular alga is a monster. It hides in all the places I can't get to, is soft so it fragments and spreads easily, and moves fast. I'd rather have BBA than this stuff. At least I know how to deal with BBA. As far as the cause, the only thing I can think of at this point is the substrate getting moved around and releasing something nasty that sparked it. I gave Misaki detailed supplementation instructions and the CO2 didn't run out while I was gone. To my knowledge nothing else changed in the tank except the substrate getting moved around.



burr740 said:


> Damn dude, that was fast!
> 
> I like how you just ripped it all up and started over.  Best thing to do sometimes.
> 
> Hopefully the cause will soon run its course, whatever it is. I still think it's something to do with that substrate.


No kidding it was fast. It's been the same way every time. Each time it's come on I've sucked, trimmed, treated with Excel...all the standard methods and it still took over. At lot of that was it getting into the moss and epiphyte roots where I couldn't get all of it out. That's why everything but the Anubias got yanked. For some reason it doesn't get into that as much as the others and the Anubias' roots can take a pretty severe toothbrushing if needed. 

I agree that it's something with the substrate, as I mentioned above. 

Yup, sometimes a full redo is in order, but is a last resort. At this point I'm so fed up with dealing with that stuff that I called in Gen. Sherman to destroy everything in his path. I've done everything I can think to combat this stuff and set it back. All I can do now is keep up with the nutrients and water changes and hope for the best. I really really hope that opening up all that space makes a difference. If it hadn't been for a strong desire to grow the Anubias and Hygro I'd have taken the wood out completely.



LRJ said:


> New layout looks good. You have any Amanos in there? Pretty sure they'll destroy that type of algae. I'd add a bunch of them.


I massacre shrimp at a genocidal level. I've never figured out why and hope to rectify it soon. I've got a couple small tanks going that are specifically designed to eventually house cherry shrimp in the hopes of breeding enough to go in the display. Right now I can't afford to spend the kind of money I'd need to to get the number of shrimp I'd need to maintain this tank only to watch them die over the course of a couple weeks. Besides, I need to get the supplementation thing dialed in before anything else.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*3.28.17 Photo Dump*-


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

So there we have it, the current state of the tank. The lights and CO2 are still the same and I added the following to last for the week until the next water change:

KNO3: 1.5 tsp
KH2PO4: 1/8 tsp
K2SO4: 1 tsp
CaSO4: 1.5 tbsp
MgSO4: 2 tbsp
Traces: 1/8 tsp
CO2: 9 hrs/day, coming on an hour before the lights and shutting off with the lights. Since just about everything got a serious hack and there are a bunch of new species in there I want to make sure they get all the CO2 they need.

Traces, and perhaps K, will be added twice per week. The plan is to follow the above dosing until there's sufficient biomass and coverage to increase it. While that's happening the system will be observed closely for signs of algae and health of new growth and dosing will be adjusted accordingly if needed. 

I'm really starting to dislike CaSO4. I don't think it's adding enough Ca for the amount used and it doesn't dissolve for [censored][censored][censored][censored]. I know some folks have had success with it, but CaCl2 has done me right for years and years. Once the current supply is gone I'll be switching back to CaCl2.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Phil that is quite a hack job there. I agree it needed to be done. Looks like now you just need to sit back and give everything time to get established and growing again.

As to the CaSO4, are you mixing it with the others prior to dosing? I ask because when I was using a GH booster mix, it would turn into a brick and was very slow to dissolve. Since I've gone with dosing CaS04 and MgSO4 separately, I've had no issues with it, as it creates kind of a cloud when dosed, but clears up in just moments.

Good luck with all the replanting, and I hope things stabilize for you now.


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

*Thus Sprach Zarathustra, 80 gallon high tech build*

I think the clean out and restart was the best choice. Sometimes that fresh start is exactly what a tank needs.


Greggz said:


> As to the CaSO4, are you mixing it with the others prior to dosing? I ask because when I was using a GH booster mix, it would turn into a brick and was very slow to dissolve. Since I've gone with dosing CaS04 and MgSO4 separately, I've had no issues with it, as it creates kind of a cloud when dosed, but clears up in just moments.


I think it doesn't dissolve well when you try to dissolve both together for your GH booster mix because of the common ion effect. Solubility of a compound goes down if one of the ions that is part of the compound is already present in solution. In this case both would have the sulfate ions. I would make the solutions for the 2 compounds seperately, should be easier to make them. This is just my speculation based on the chemistry I've learnt in school hahaha.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Greggz said:


> Phil that is quite a hack job there. I agree it needed to be done. Looks like now you just need to sit back and give everything time to get established and growing again.
> 
> As to the CaSO4, are you mixing it with the others prior to dosing? I ask because when I was using a GH booster mix, it would turn into a brick and was very slow to dissolve. Since I've gone with dosing CaS04 and MgSO4 separately, I've had no issues with it, as it creates kind of a cloud when dosed, but clears up in just moments.
> 
> Good luck with all the replanting, and I hope things stabilize for you now.


Yeah, I had to cut things back hard to get to the unaffected stuff. As for sitting back, that's what I intend to do. All the replanting was done on Sunday so the only thing left to do is maintain a regular maintenance regimen and fill in empty spaces when circumstances permit. The water's looking a bit hazier than it did yesterday so there may be a GW bloom starting thanks to all the heavy tank and filter cleaning I did. If that's the case, it'll be a blessing. Spiking GW a week or so before a competition photo shoot is an old trick of mine as the GW really sets other algae back without affecting the plants much, if at all. I don't know why, but it does and GW is easy to get rid of. If it does come on, I'll be able to dose comfortably while the little guys re-establish without worry about other algae.

Also, I've got a service call in to EcoTech to get my light fixed. Once I send it off we'll see just how good the 120 degree lens is at covering an 8 sq ft area. It shouldn't take more than a week all told so I don't expect much in the way of problems. Buuuut, we all know what happens when I say I don't expect problems........ 

I dose everything separately, either directly into the tank in an area of high flow or into the sump. Now that you're running RO, how much Ca and Mg do you add, and what's your overall GH?



Opare said:


> I think the clean out and restart was the best choice. Sometimes that fresh start is exactly what a tank needs.
> 
> I think it doesn't dissolve well when you try to dissolve both together for your GH booster mix because of the common ion effect. Solubility of a compound goes down if one of the ions that is part of the compound is already present in solution. In this case both would have the sulfate ions. I would make the solutions for the 2 compounds seperately, should be easier to make them. This is just my speculation based on the chemistry I've learnt in school hahaha.


I think removing all the wood to increase circulation and optimize light to the light-hungry species is what the tank really needed. Like I said above, everything gets dosed separately, but I may need to start mixing the Ca in some water rather than just dumping it in.



Doing this restart makes me a bit sad because I love woodscapes and spent a lot of time gathering all the pieces needed to do the original scape. Thinking forward to the next scape, if I can grow out enough H. pinn to cover that big piece of wood everything should be ok. If that doesn't work out, I'll probably just go with generic aquatic garden aquascape with grouping vaguely following the Dutch guidelines as far as contrast is concerned. 

On the upside, I can already see some bubbles coming off the L. rugosa. That's the one species that didn't need hacking so it just got moved slightly forward. I'd really like to try out Flourish Advanced since things are either new, got massively cut back and/or moved, but I'm concerned it would stimulate some unseen bit of Trump Hair that may be lurking in the tank. That being said, if there's ever a right time to try the product it would be now. 

Cheers,
Phil


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> I dose everything separately, either directly into the tank in an area of high flow or into the sump. Now that you're running RO, how much Ca and Mg do you add, and what's your overall GH?


Phil my RO water comes out at zero GH, and about 2 KH (last stage remineralization filter). My water change is about 80 gallons. I add 2 Tbs CaS04 and 1 Tbs MgS04. I only selected that ratio based the ratio in GLA GH Booster. I'm open to suggestion if there is a better mix.

I also dose 1 Tbs K2C03 for KH. I've been testing my water right before I pump it up to the tank, and it's been consistently at 5 GH, 4 KH, and 7.6 pH.

I should add that when I was dosing it directly into the tank, I did pour it into a large cup of water and let it sit for about an hour while I did the usual maintenance/water change. Now I dump it right into my storage tanks, so it dissolves all week.

Quick question for you. Any reason you went with LED this time around? Is that what you have used in the past? Just curious.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Thanks for the info Gregg. I think I'll start trying that ratio of Ca to Mg, only a little bit less to account for my smaller system. I went with the LED because I'd never used them before, EcoTech has high build quality and amazing customer service, and they did well at the store I used to work at. Also, since I paid a lot to get the light frame build it was either get a new T5 unit with a hanging kit and shell out a bunch for different bulbs, or go with the really customizable and unobtrusive LEDs. Since my electric bill is ridiculously high in this old apartment the power savings and diode longevity were bonuses. 

I'm still a fan of T5s and will probably use them if I ever set up another 4' or larger tank. If I have the money to set up another bigger tank I'll have the money to afford replacing the bulbs every year.  


My curiousity got the better of me and I decided that playing with fire is worth the risk. Seachem's sending me a little bottle of Flourish Advance to try out. I'm glad I got the before and after pics from the trip as well as the early shots right after the tank was set up. They'll help make some comparisons regarding plant establishment.


Cheers,
Phil


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Ok....now begins the (estimated) Week of One Light. Since I couldn't get the 2nd 120 degree lens installed it's getting sent off to EcoTech tomorrow for service. I hate losing the light over a single stripped screw, but as the customer service rep said "If we break it it's our responsibility. If you break it it's yours." For what I paid for the thing I'll let them take liability and hope that the plants don't get affected too much. The remaining light is up as high as I can get it and is running at 73%, which really doesn't look like a whole lot to my eye, but we'll see. Hell, with my luck it'll end up helping things....

Cheers,
Phil


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Soooo, I have some interesting/good news. I just heard back from Jim at Seachem and he said at this point there shouldn't be anything in the substrate that might cause an algae bloom. For those of you who may not know him, he's their product development guy and knows more about their products than anyone there. Plus, he always tells it to me straight, so I tend to believe what he tells me. I guess that leaves something with nutrients or too-dirty filter media to blame. I also asked him some detailed questions about Flourish Advance and he said it shouldn't induce algae. We'll see when it arrives.  If things stay clean for the first 2-3 weeks then could be a really good establishment/root growth enhancer after a replanting. Perhaps someday I'll try it after a serious hack, without any replanting. 

I think I jinxed myself with the earlier comment of rather having BBA than that other stuff. I just found what looked to be some BBA starting to grow on the cuttings of the Lud. 'Red' and Mermaid Weed Gregg gave me. Sorry to say my friend, they all got taken out. 

The last little bit of news is I forgot what day it was and decided not to send the light out for service until Monday. That should mean I'll have it back by next Friday at the latest.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> I think I jinxed myself with the earlier comment of rather having BBA than that other stuff. I just found what looked to be some BBA starting to grow on the cuttings of the Lud. 'Red' and Mermaid Weed Gregg gave me. Sorry to say my friend, they all got taken out.


Phil I find this interesting. So your philosophy is that you completely remove any infected plant? I'm assuming your belief is that the spores are not in the tank until they are introduced? 

I have no basis for this, but I've always felt all the spores are there just waiting for the right conditions to grow. Kind of like the emergence of that wavy stringy algae you had when you came home from your trip. I had a similar situation when I unknowingly ran out of CO2 for a few days. All manner of Algae came roaring out that I had never seen before. My feeling was that they had always been there laying in wait for the right opportunity. I removed as much as possible, and when the tank came back into better balance, I haven't seen them since.

I've read many times people trimming of the algae infested leaves, but not completely removing the plant. Would be curious to hear more about your feelings on this. Always trying to learn a bit more from those who have many more years of experience than I do.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Greggz said:


> Phil I find this interesting. So your philosophy is that you completely remove any infected plant? I'm assuming your belief is that the spores are not in the tank until they are introduced?
> 
> I have no basis for this, but I've always felt all the spores are there just waiting for the right conditions to grow. Kind of like the emergence of that wavy stringy algae you had when you came home from your trip. I had a similar situation when I unknowingly ran out of CO2 for a few days. All manner of Algae came roaring out that I had never seen before. My feeling was that they had always been there laying in wait for the right opportunity. I removed as much as possible, and when the tank came back into better balance, I haven't seen them since.
> 
> I've read many times people trimming of the algae infested leaves, but not completely removing the plant. Would be curious to hear more about your feelings on this. Always trying to learn a bit more from those who have many more years of experience than I do.


You're right about the spores and such Gregg. I took them out because they'd been cut back so hard that removing the leaves would have left nothing. It would have been, in effect, the same thing. I normally just take off affected leaves or cut back affected portions of stems. An H2O2 spot treatment here and there works as well. In this particular case, the plants were too small and fragile for that to do any good.  First, and hopefully only, collateral casualty of the Trump Hair.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Occasionally I find BBA in my tank when I run lights too hard or too long. Have always removed the effected leaves and hoped for the best (not knowing any better). Sounds like that may have been the right thing to do.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

I picked up a bottle of Advance a while back when I noticed it on the shelf at my lfs. I added a couple of doses, but got lazy and didn't stick with it. I'm interested to see what your impressions will be.


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## sdwindansea (Oct 28, 2016)

I had a pretty rough patch of staghorn and bba. I was losing the battle trying to spot treat everything in the tank, especially the sticker stems. I ended up pulling all of the plants that I could and doing an H2O2 dip. That along with spot treating the remaining ones seems to have really helped the issue. I'm sure it is still there but it hasn't been noticeable...yet.

On a different note, I've really enjoyed your journal and the ups and downs you've experienced. You have an immeasurable amount of experience compared to myself and it is good to know that it isn't always perfect. Thanks for that.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Immortal1 said:


> Occasionally I find BBA in my tank when I run lights too hard or too long. Have always removed the effected leaves and hoped for the best (not knowing any better). Sounds like that may have been the right thing to do.


Yup, that's always the best thing to do first. 



Jeff5614 said:


> I picked up a bottle of Advance a while back when I noticed it on the shelf at my lfs. I added a couple of doses, but got lazy and didn't stick with it. I'm interested to see what your impressions will be.


Jeff, to be honest, I don't expect to see much in the way of improvement. The plan is to only use it for a couple of weeks to stimulate root growth and aid establishment. I do hope to see some stronger rooting of the plants next to the glass, but that's about it. Everything I want it to be doing will be going on under the substrate. They do recommend regular use to stimulate stem and leaf growth over the long term but doing so would get in the way of some comparison of TC plant growth I'm doing for Dennerle. I got lucky and had some extra Aqvinnova plants that I could put in the tank with the Dennerle stuff so everything's getting equal treatment. If I hadn't needed to do such a large hack and replant I probably wouldn't even be using Advance. But, because I did, it was the perfect time to try out the stuff to see what happens. Whatever the case may be, I'll keep y'all updated. 



sdwindansea said:


> I had a pretty rough patch of staghorn and bba. I was losing the battle trying to spot treat everything in the tank, especially the sticker stems. I ended up pulling all of the plants that I could and doing an H2O2 dip. That along with spot treating the remaining ones seems to have really helped the issue. I'm sure it is still there but it hasn't been noticeable...yet.
> 
> On a different note, I've really enjoyed your journal and the ups and downs you've experienced. You have an immeasurable amount of experience compared to myself and it is good to know that it isn't always perfect. Thanks for that.


I've had that happen before too. Even though the start of this system has had its troubles, it's been easy compared to the first time I used Aquasoil. THAT was a cluster%&$! of a start. At that time we didn't have the collective experience and knowledge about that product that we do now. Had I known then what I know how I'd have left it unplanted and in the dark for a month and used it to cycle the filter before doing any sort of planting. 

I had to do a full pull and H2O2 dip a couple months ago on this system too. There was too much wood, moss, and too many fine-rooted epiphytes in the "hot zone". The nasty algae just wouldn't go away. In the end, the real reason for the total renovation was getting most of the wood out of the tank. As much as I wanted it in there, it just wasn't working out well for the tank's dimensions and type of lighting. Now that there's more open area and better circulation, the plants are doing much better. Even before I started using the Advance a number of the stems were showing new growth. 

If this experience has taught me anything, it's to not get so hung up on a certain type of look if it doesn't work for the system. There will always be other tanks so it's worth keeping the vision you have in the back of your head for a time when it can be fulfilled instead of trying to force it on something that can't handle it. That path leads to the Dark Side. 

I believe it's important to show all of the ups and downs in a journal. No matter how much experience one may have, there are always issues and someone out there can learn from them. I certainly don't know it all and I put my plants on in the morning just like everyone else.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Success!!!! I finally got that damned screw out and was able to get the 120* lens on the second fixture without having to send it in. Both lights are a little over a foot from the water's surface and coverage and illumination are better than ever. Hopefully this will lead to some pearling from the larger plants that didn't need a trim. On top of that, I'm seeing new growth from everything, but I'm not yet ready to attribute that to the F. Advance as I saw tiny shoots emerging before I started using it. 

The boss is putting in a fish order in the nearish future. Hopefully that'll mean more plants and perhaps some shrimp. Other than a daily algae search and destroy, it's time to sit back (on my hands) and watching things grow.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Some days I really wish I'd just tossed a bunch of carpet plants in there with Crypts around the base of the wood and called it good. I really miss this arrangement.


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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

That is a nice hardscape ya' go-... had there.


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## jmhart (Mar 14, 2008)

Excellent thread so far. Happy to see you getting back into things. Been a long time since the AAAA days. You're a regular globe trotter now. 

Really loving what you've got going on with the tank. That algae/diatom is a pest. Whatever it is, I've had it in several tanks. Usually, as you have surmised, after new substrate is put in there and settling in. It may be conincidence, as time may be the thing that really clears it up, but I've effectively gotten rid of it in three different tanks over the years by doing the following:

1)Physical removal. I use a toothbrush to pull it off wood/plants and then I swirl it around the brush (like cotton candy) to pull it out of the tank. Pretty easy, if tedious, this way
2)Big water changes
3)Triple dose excel followed by three day total black out
4)Big water change
5)Triple dose excel

It's a bit of a nuclear option, but it worked in my 45 gallon (10 years ago), my 60-P and my 120g (in the past 5 years). Now, the only disclaimer would be that you've got a lot of flora in there that are newer to the hobby, so how they'll handle a triple dose of excel is worth considering.

In my experience, the only time I've ever had trouble with excel is direct application. I make up a 1:3 dilution of excel in a spray bottle and spray it straight on plants/hardscape/glass. Let it sit 5 minutes, and then wash it off. Kills everything. Most plants do fine with it. Only really damaged Rotala macrandra for me, so I just don't spray that. Anyway, point is a straight triple dose to the tank hasn't ever effected any of my plants. 

Good look with the sort-of fresh start. Hopefully that keeps the "Trump Hair" at bay. Looking forward to watching the tank continue.


----------



## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Heya Jeff! 

Thanks for the kind words. With all the [censored][censored][censored][censored] this tank's been through (and my frustration with it) the encouragement is appreciated. I hope to pick up a few more stem species when we do our next fish order at work to fill in some spaces and get more biomass going. Hopefully they'll have stuff I can use. It needs more small-leaved species to balance out all the broad-leaved ones. Since it's Spring I hope it means they've got a better stock from FAN than during winter. I'm thinking some D. diandra, more R. rotundifolia in case the TC stuff doesn't make it, L. repens 'needle leaf', L. hippuroides (this may be too big though), and R. nanjenshan. 

Yeah, it's been a long time and a lot of chasing money. I decided to give up on consulting and had to give up on research when the program I was with lost funding. Then I lucked into a couple jobs in the aquatics industry, and here I am today. As much as I wish otherwise, the tank has to be the way it is for a while. At least until I figure out what I need to do to make a really good scape that'll work with, rather than against, the system. 

I tried everything I could; daily toothbrushing and detailed sucking, daily double doses of Excel, all that stuff. Nothing seemed to work for any length of time. Sadly, the way the hardware is set up the Nuclear Blackout routine wasn't practical. The pest control people are coming in a couple of days to bomb the apartment and I'm still trying to figure out how to get the whole thing covered, top to bottom. 

Potential upcoming change: reducing filter output. The substrate's still getting moved around, though less so now that I've put the outlet tube in a different location. Anything in the direct path gets blown around pretty hard so I'm considering a ball valve to be able to throttle it back some as needed. It's just a thought right now.

Cheers,
Phil


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*4.6.17*-

After waking up obscenely early, I thought it would be a good idea to take some light measurements now that the lenses are both in. Both lights are approx. 14 inches from water's surface. 

At 55%- Underneath the puck right at the surface 120ish, at the substrate 40-50, at the edges of the tank 20ish.

At 75%- Underneath the puck right at the surface 150-160, at the substrate 65ish, at the edges of the tank 35-40. Needless to say, the intensity got ramped up to 75%. 

One thing I noticed (happily) is how quickly the hotspot fades and how uniform the rest of the space is PAR wise. Once you get out from under the puck, PAR at the substrate is 90-95% consistent to the edges and to the middle of the tank; accounting for shadowing from plants, wood, and my arm. I took measurements with the light higher and lower, and 12-14 inches above surface seems to be the sweet spot for this tank as far as spread and minimizing light spillage go. 
@burr740, you'll be happy to know that I found your trace mix formula and made a solution of my own. It's double strength, but is still a lot less than what I was putting in before. 

Along the same vein, I've been thinking about old tanks and what I did with them that worked. One thing that kept coming back to me was the amount of light I had- between 300 and 330 watts of PC lighting over a 75 and 90 gallon tank at different times. Even accounting for a 3x output multiplier for LED, I'm still using about the same, or slightly less less light going on the only value I can make a comparison with: watt/gallon. Yes, I know it's not a great method, but I didn't have a PAR meter back then and it worked for us for a long time, so shush. 

With that in mind, I've decided to go back to the old dosing regimen for the 75gal I showed in a previous post-
KNO3: 3/4 to 1 tsp M,W,F based on biomass and plant response

KH2PO4: 1/8 to 1/4 tsp M,W,F 
I really need to go by Bloodbath and Beyond to pick up a gram scale and a pinch, dash, and smidgeon spoon set. The old spoon set made dosing small amounts so much easier. 

K2SO4: 1/2 tsp M,W,F

CaSO4: 2 tsp **

MgSO4: 2 tsp **

Traces: 1/2 tsp per 500mL solution dosed at 10mL T/Tr/Sat

Water change Sunday night.

**Upon remeasuring GH out of the tap and getting 4 dGH I'm going to hold off on Ca and Mg for a few weeks to see how things work out. If I start seeing signs of problems, then I'll start at a 1 tsp dose of each and work up from there. 

If I can find a grinder that will get my Epsom Salts into particles as small as the K2SO4 I may whip up a batch of DIY GH mix. The only thing that I don't like about that is the potential for overdosing the other elements to get a single one where it needs to be. That's why I prefer dosing separately; I don't have to worry about that sort of thing. Any overdoses land squarely on my shoulders.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> *4.6.17*Along the same vein, I've been thinking about old tanks and what I did with them that worked. One thing that kept coming back to me was the amount of light I had- between 300 and 330 watts of PC lighting over a 75 and 90 gallon tank at different times. Even accounting for a 3x output multiplier for LED, I'm still using about the same, or slightly less less light going on the only value I can make a comparison with: watt/gallon. Yes, I know it's not a great method, but I didn't have a PAR meter back then and it worked for us for a long time, so shush.


Phil I'm far from an expert on lighting. But based on the PAR values I am getting from 376W over a 120G, I think you may be underestimating the PAR you were getting with 330W of PC over a 75 or 90. I would guess your PAR at the substrate was quite a bit higher than what you are getting now.

Not saying if that's good or bad, just a thought for you.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

You're right, I may be. I could grow anything available at the time under that lighting. Then again, the entire surface of the tank was covered with lights, much like one of the horticultural T5 fixtures today. I really have no good way to compare the old lighting vs the new so I'm shooting in the dark and taking the best guess(es) I can. We'll just have to wait and see how the growth patterns turn out. On the up side, if the old tanks did have more light input then the fert regime for them should work fairly well for this one. I'm going to do my damnedest to stick to a routine for a while. 

Cheers,
Phil


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*4.7.17 pm update*-

I'm finding it harder to keep my hands off the tank than I am not smoking (82 hrs in, BTW). I finally got around to hooking a ball valve into the main return line to what else, cut flow. What used to be a nice even line in front is now visibly lower on the left front and higher on the right front. With the excavation found after getting back from Global, I knew it was time. 

That change brought about one and a half inadvertent changes that should prove beneficial:
1- The lower flow dropped the water level by an inch or so, so I had to raise the overflow. That opened up quite a bit of vertical real estate, in relative terms.
2- Had to raise the outlet. Now that the water column's higher, and the outlet hose is longer by the length of the ball valve, the outlet needed to be brought up a bit. 
3- The lights are now closer to the water. 

What does all this mean? 

a. Lower flow = less turbulence in the tank, overflow, and filter = better CO2 effeciency and less noise. 
b. Higher water = light are closer to the surface = higher PAR

a + b = PEARLING MFers!!! It's about damned time! It's not much, but it's there.

Hopefully these changes will improve overall health. If they don't, I'm at the end of the rope, there's not much else I can do other than up CO2 and ferts even more. Light's about as high as it will get, the filter's tuned well, and nutrients should be good. Lord knows I've put enough in for the small amount of biomass this past week. I really want to make this work as a stem tank. I know it would do very well as an Aroid and Fern tank, but I want more than that these days. Plus, I'm starting to get buyer's remorse over the Radions when I had a perfectly good 6 bulb T5 fixture already. Too much drooling over other peoples' journals I guess.

Cheers,
Phil


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*4.9.17 Photo Dump*-

A few things got shifted around. 
1. Some of the stems were bending toward the light, so they got shifted to a better location. 
2. I've got a pack of various stems coming in this week and I needed to make room for them. 

Most notable changes:
1. Both pieces of wood were placed in the rear middle where light is lowest. The Anubias are getting decent shade at the top and the H. pinn is still getting good light and should keep growing well.
2. Some of the C. wendtii got moved to the back behind the stems to make room and the rest got re-arranged to follow the edge of the glass where light is lowest.
3. The rest of the Crypts were put in the middle. Even though the PAR meter reads fairly evenly along the substrate growth of higher light plants there has been lackluster. I hate having a "shadow" zone right in the middle as that breaks the tank up into two sections as far as plants go. Hopefully I'll be able to work some design magic to keep the eventual scape from being 50/50.
3. The L. rugosa got moved next to the P. erectus to get a little bit of leaf shape contrast going on.



Left side






Right Side






Center



For @Greggz; some of your plants did survive, just wanted you to know.



This poor thing has been hanging on for dear life ever since I put it in the tank. It's a trooper!







There you go, a week's worth of growth, such as it is.

Cheers,
Phil


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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

I would imagine, that I would be difficult to completely light a tank with that width & length, unless you have 4 different lights across the top of the tank or something. Still hard. 
Great pics


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> *4.9.17 Photo Dump*-
> 
> For @Greggz; some of your plants did survive, just wanted you to know.


Phil that Bacopa Compact and L. Sp. Thai can be prolific growers. I don't know why they call the Bacopa "Compact", as for me it grows 2' tall to the top of the tank. And fast.

Same with the Thai, grows fast and tall, and puts out side shoots like mad. 

Looks like the tank has stabilized from the beating it took, and with a little patience and time things should fill back in. I'll look forward to seeing your new stems.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

BettaBettas said:


> I would imagine, that I would be difficult to completely light a tank with that width & length, unless you have 4 different lights across the top of the tank or something. Still hard.
> Great pics


One of the reasons I got these lights was for their reputation of being able to handle a 24x24 area with the 120 degree lenses. There's still light getting to the whole tank, it's just not quite what I'd expected from past experience with other Radions. It's hard to see in the pictures, but the shadow is there; primarily as one goes up in the water column. PAR is only 20 at the surface in the middle-rear. That's why the Anubias wood and C. spiralis are in that spot. Once things get growing, the middle split should be able to be minimized with a street or two of low growers. If they're kept low they should get enough light....one hopes.


I broke down and called the friend I sold the old T-5 fixture to to see if she still had it. It's at her estranged husband's place but she said she could probably get it back. If push comes to shove I'll toss that bad boy on there and see how things go. It grew the snot out of stems in the old tank with the same area, but shallower height. 



Greggz said:


> Phil that Bacopa Compact and L. Sp. Thai can be prolific growers. I don't know why they call the Bacopa "Compact", as for me it grows 2' tall to the top of the tank. And fast.
> 
> Same with the Thai, grows fast and tall, and puts out side shoots like mad.
> 
> Looks like the tank has stabilized from the beating it took, and with a little patience and time things should fill back in. I'll look forward to seeing your new stems.


It's growing about as well as the B. monnieri is, so I expect some craziness from it in the future. Of all the stems you sent, the L. sp. Thai has done the best. I like the color a lot, it'll be a nice contrast with the rest of the stuff. Yuppers, things are recovering, slowly, but surely. With just a little luck I've got the Holy Trinity as dialed in as I can get them and nothing but some of the TC plants that are already on the way out will outright die. If I can figure out some way to get the lights running at 100% then I'm going to.

Herns is sending me the following package. $15 was too good to pass up for 70ish stems. The problem is they're not going to be labeled, LOL.
Rotala Rotundifolia
Rotala H ra aka "Gia Lai"
Rotala Colorata--showing reddish color. 
Rotala Magenta
Few Bacopa Monnieri/Caroliana
Few Myrio red

Someone else is sending some Tonina fluviatilis aka 'Lotus Blossom'. That should load me up on fine leaved red plants. Hopefully the Tonina will do well enough to make a large bunch to contrast with the Rotala.

Cheerios,
Phil


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

4.13.17 update- 

Got some new plants last night! Not sure what most of them are yet, but they're in there. With a little luck we'll be able to get IDs in a couple weeks. The Rotalas and Bacopa came in as nice long stems. Unfortunately the Tonina cuttings were just baaaarely long enough to plant and still have a leaf or two at the surface. Now I know how those reefers feel when they get a single polyp of something as a "frag". Still, everything was healthy and I have hope they'll do well. We shall see though, as we know this system has a way of dashing hopes. LOL








I had to plant them all in a circular fashion to make sure they got as much light as possible. They're all in there singing Kumbaya and making s'mores at the moment.


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

Those Crypts in the top right corner look really good. A nice thicc group.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Opare said:


> Those Crypts in the top right corner look really good. A nice thicc group.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You mean the brownish looking stuff right next to the lower edge of the outlet? That's Ludwigia sp. Thai from Greggz. The largest bunches of crypts are in the front right corner and back under the anubias wood where it's hard to see. There are a few small bunches growing from TC pots and the stuff I got from Aqvinnova previously, but they're in the middle. 


Thank you for the kind words anyway. I really like that bunch of Ludwigia. It's survived a lot of abuse so it's a winner in my book.

Cheers,
Phil


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

*Thus Sprach Zarathustra, 80 gallon high tech build*



PEdwards said:


> You mean the brownish looking stuff right next to the lower edge of the outlet? That's Ludwigia sp. Thai from Greggz. The largest bunches of crypts are in the front right corner and back under the anubias wood where it's hard to see. There are a few small bunches growing from TC pots and the stuff I got from Aqvinnova previously, but they're in the middle.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, I did mean the front right corner, I was looking at the top-down view of the tank when I wrote the post earlier. The plants I'm referring to is what I think is C. wendtii 'Tropica'/'Bronze'/'Brown'. The bush is pretty big and the deep brown colour is great. They also seem to be staying pretty low for you, must be a function of the higher lighting. That being said the Ludwigia sp. Thai is really nice because it's colour is quite unique to stem plants. Makes it a bit more interesting to play around with.




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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*4.15.17 Update*- It's starting to look like a proper planted tank!

Things are looking up so far. Aside from the tissue culture (TC) HC and some of the TC E. pusilla, most of the TC plants at least seem to be establishing even after being repeatedly dug up by the cories or yours truly. To my great surprise, the P. erectus has finally started putting out submerged stems. If things keep going like they are then this will be the first time I've successfully transitioned TC P. erectus in a tank. Sadly, the U. graminifolia taken from SSS1 didn't make it. To be honest, I'm not too sad about it. There's still more in SSS1 if I really really need to put it in the main display. Hmmm, what else of note has happened since the last update? @Greggz stems that got hacked to the nubbins are doing great. They're still small, but are growing with as much vigor as a little bitty cutting can. The H. pinn has been rooting like crazy and throwing out daughter plants. I credit the Flourish Advance for this, and probably for all the stem nubbins doing as well as they are. The AR 'mini' groups have started recovering from either the hack or transplant. New growth is coming in nice and dark, but the old leaves are really ratty. The various Rotala that came in the other day from @herns are growing, but losing color. Given the lighting and fertilization situations I'm not surprised. The important part is they're growing. 

The downsides; the L. rugosa isn't doing as well as it was in the new spot. For some reason it did really well in the lower light portions of the tank and doesn't seem to like higher light as much. I don't want to move it quite yet though as some new species are in the spot where it used to be. If things start looking really bad then I'll move it. The large P. erectus is pissed at me these days. I've been seeing little bits of the dreaded TH and have been picking off any leaf or leaves it's on. I had to top one of the better stems (scorched earth still) and it really doesn't like me right now. 

New additions!!
@burr740 sent me all sorts of cool stuff to play with. Well, I bought them, but he did send them. 

1. L. cardinalis, one of my sentimental favorites
2. Lots of S. repens to replace the group that melted during the Global show.
3. E. lineare (is that right?); the first Eriocaulon I've kept. Hopefully I don't kill it.
4. L meeboldi 'red round' 
5. Lots of H. pinn for the grow out. This is one I'm going to need a lot of for a potential future aquascape.
6. Willow moss sp. gigantea and M. pteropus 'Trident'; both got tossed in with the shrimp

Now I just need to grow all this out while figuring out how to aquascape with it in the future.

Current specs:
Lights- 8000K on at 73% for 7 hrs with a 1 hr ramp up and ramp down on either end. I raised the fixtures a couple inches to mitigate PAR reduction as it gets closer to the surface. It's still there, but not as pronounced. Plants have responded well.

CO2- Bumped it up a little bit for grins and giggles. Things seem to be appreciating it. I may bump it up a little more after today's water change. On an hour before lights on and off as the evening ramp-down starts.

Ferts- 
Macros: 1 tsp NO3 Sat,M,W; 1/4 tsp PO4 S,M,W; 3/4 tsp K Sat,M,W. Macros sometimes get a half dose on Friday if the plants look like they need it. 
Ca and Mg: 2 tbsp and 1 tbsp, respectively, after WC I'm starting to think that's not enough Ca, but am going to hold off and watch things for a while.
Micros: Solution of 1 tbsp in 500 mL dosed at 20mL T, Tr, and Sat (half concentration of rotalabutterfly's solution) Was getting supersaturation and precipitation at higher than 1 tbsp per 500 mL.
20 mL Flourish Advance every morning
50-60% WC on Saturday evening.

All in all, everything seems to be responding well to this treatment so I'm going to stick with it. Unless I get the old T5 fixture back and need to lard it on.


*PICS!!!*



Right side








Center




Left side






Thanks for watching!
Phil


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

3. Erio lineare

4. baby Lagenandra meeboldi 'red round' (stays small, 8-10 inch bush)

6. Willow moss sp gigantea


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

burr740 said:


> 3. Erio lineare
> 
> 4. baby Lagenandra meeboldi 'red round' (stays small, 8-10 inch bush)
> 
> 6. Willow moss sp gigantea


Thanks for the corrections. Hopefully I'll remember them without having to refer back to your post. And thanks for the Lagenandra, that's just the shape and color I need. I've been considering getting a small Echinodorus, but this will work well and I prefer aroids. <3

Cheerios,
Phil


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Phil looks like Thus Sprach Zarathustra is evolving. Is this going to end up more "Dutch" like now?

Either way, things look like they have taken a turn for the better. Looking forward to seeing where you go from here.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Heya Gregg,

It's evolved into a grow out tank.  I'm pretty hardline about what's Dutch vs. what's not, and I wouldn't consider the tank as it is anywhere near to being Dutch. The plants are mostly grouped together for both my aesthetic preference and to make sure things get enough light. 

I would still very much like to complete the Nature Aquarium aquascape I'd originally gone with and will do it at some point. Until then I'm just going to be growing things out to get enough to do what I need to do.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

If the woodscape doesn't work again (eventually), I may do something I never thought I'd do...make an iwagumi. If I were really honest with myself I'd have to admit that the dimensions of the tank are perfect for it. I'm just not ready to give up on the original concept. If I hadn't spent so much money on such a nice tank I may have considered going full Dutch, but there's no way in hell I'm going to attach walls to the sides of this thing. I may do some sort of suction cup and eggcrate or stainless steel job just to grow plants, but not the authentic foam glued to the back and sides.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Phil you could usher into the hobby a new era for all us pleebs out here half-asssing things - The Quasi-Dutch!


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

I thought you and Tom had already done that?

Actually, people calling tanks "Dutch" just because they have discrete groups of plants with some amount of contrast is a huge pet peeve of mine. When I was starting in the hobby we called those planted tanks or aquatic gardens....



Thoughts for far into the future. Until then, it's got a temporary name of "Random [censored][censored][censored][censored]".

The original concept: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9BLKfMOBYo&index=3&list=PLlaOy5V7Px_RNarc1RjVgvL4U3cjU7gAr

One possibility, though without all that rock: I think it will work better than the original I did given the flow dynamics and dimensions of the tank. (Hence the need for all the H. pinn.  )

Another possibility: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFiYAQbDj7w&list=PLlaOy5V7Px_RNarc1RjVgvL4U3cjU7gAr&index=9 Also, hence the need for all the H. pinn. It's a much better structure cover than moss or ferns under high light.


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## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> Actually, people calling tanks "Dutch" just because they have discrete groups of plants with some amount of contrast is a huge pet peeve of mine.



+1 :nerd:


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

PEdwards said:


> I thought you and Tom had already done that?


What I meant was help make it an official style so that all us tweens have a category to show in. 



PEdwards said:


> Actually, people calling tanks "Dutch" just because they have discrete groups of plants with some amount of contrast is a huge pet peeve of mine. When I was starting in the hobby we called those planted tanks or aquatic gardens....


You see it all the time these days. So many people think no hardscape automatically = Dutch


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Tweens? Plebs? Bah, if anything, I should be the Pleb given what's gone on with the tank these past six months. I can't believe it's been that long...

It is already an official style, it's called Aquatic Garden.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

That moment when you come home to see noticeable growth of (almost) everything and improvement in health of all the plants that were in there already.


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

The best feeling!


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Does anyone know what causes S. repens to start melting?


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

It looks like we're going to be able to test @SaxaTilly and @burr740's hypothesis about fast change pissing plants off. Going from Burr's next to no PO4 and traces to my 5ppm PO4 and 0.2ppm Fe worth of CSM+B the plants I got from Burr are not happy with me right now. Going to stick to the regimen and find out what happens. Thankfully the pissed off parts are only here and there, not on the whole plant of any of them.

Cheers,
Phil


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> It looks like we're going to be able to test @SaxaTilly and @burr740's hypothesis about fast change pissing plants off. Going from Burr's next to no PO4 and traces to my 5ppm PO4 and 0.2ppm Fe worth of CSM+B the plants I got from Burr are not happy with me right now. Going to stick to the regimen and find out what happens. Thankfully the pissed off parts are only here and there, not on the whole plant of any of them.
> 
> Cheers,
> Phil


Phil I have purchased plants from Burr740 several times. I haven't found them to be any harder than from anywhere else. In fact, easier in most cases. And I threw some into a toxic soup that couldn’t be more different from Burr’s.

And that's not to say that they all flourished. But at least in my case, I can say any that I lost were my own fault. 

Good luck with the new crop. I’m betting once they adapt a little you will be fine.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Oh sure..blame it on me! 

Hypothesizing; I think 2-3 days in a box probably resets a plant's resource allocations. They come out starving for both light and nutrients primed to take whatever they can get.

Also with inert sub, my water column may actually be richer than someone dosing more with a high cec.

Just a couple of theories. I never have much problem acclimating new plants, even the fussy ones tend to do alright in the beginning.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Well hell guys, here I was thinking this might be an actual opportunity to see if some positing was true or not. LOL Regardless, things are still looking up. 

*4.23 Photo Dump*-


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Greggz said:


> Phil I have purchased plants from Burr740 several times. I haven't found them to be any harder than from anywhere else. In fact, easier in most cases. And I threw some into a toxic soup that couldn’t be more different from Burr’s.
> 
> And that's not to say that they all flourished. But at least in my case, I can say any that I lost were my own fault.
> 
> Good luck with the new crop. I’m betting once they adapt a little you will be fine.





burr740 said:


> Oh sure..blame it on me!
> 
> Hypothesizing; I think 2-3 days in a box probably resets a plant's resource allocations. They come out starving for both light and nutrients primed to take whatever they can get.
> 
> ...


LOL, I'm not blaming anything on anyone. My only thought was the plants going from a low P and Fe situation to my rich tank. I'm not sure if being in a box for a couple days would make them switch to whatever uptake mechanism Tom was talking about the other day. It could be, it might not. I'm not sure. If it's my fault, then it's my fault and I'll have to figure out how to fix it. Whatever the case may be, everything is mostly healthy, adjusting well, and I'm happy with that.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Major positive changes are in the works. In a fit of pique I got some nice new hardware and some Calcium nitrate. After debating the merits and demerits of various Ca supplementation methods and solubility, I've decided to chuck the CaSO4, at least for this tank. Still having problems with one or more of the macros and am hoping the CaNO3 fixes them. At the very least I'll be able to rule those two out in one swoop. 

Ok all you Internet Poindexters, riddle me this-

Leaves are chlorotic, melting, scenescing, curling, and generally being unhappy.

80 gallon system volume, 1 tsp KNO3 3x/week, 1/4 tsp KH2PO4 3x/week, 1 tsp K2SO4 3x/week, 2 tbsp MgSO4 after water changes and 1 tbsp 1x/week, 2 tbsp CaSO4 after water changes and 1 tbsp 1x/week, 0.10 ppm Fe equivalent of CSM solution 3x/week, pH drop of more than a point.

Where are things going wrong? It must be stupidly obvious because I'm not seeing it. I'm leaning toward Ca, but too many people have had success with CaSO4 for me to consider that as the only possibility.

Oh, and I finally had to swap my CO2 out while at the AGA. That's about 7 months on a 20 pounder; not terribad all things considered.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

PEdwards said:


> 80 gallon system volume, 1 tsp KNO3 3x/week, 1/4 tsp KH2PO4 3x/week, 1 tsp K2SO4 3x/week, 2 tbsp MgSO4 after water changes and 1 tbsp 1x/week, 2 tbsp CaSO4 after water changes and 1 tbsp 1x/week, 0.10 ppm Fe equivalent of CSM solution 3x/week, pH drop of more than a point.


Out of curiosity I ran those values in ppms, might help to see things clearer

https://rotalabutterfly.com/nutrient-calculator.php

13.77 ppm KNO3 3x/week

3.22 ppm KH2PO4 3x/week

9.48 ppm K2SO4 3x/week

9.96 ppm MgSO4 after water changes and 4.98 ppm 1x/week

14.3 ppm CaSO4 after water changes and 7.15 ppm 1x/week


Just my humble opinion, but I seriously doubt the problem is a shortage of anything.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> Ok all you Internet Poindexters, riddle me this-


Phil I'm not really qualified to be an Internet Poindexter.....but here goes anyways.:grin2:

And like you said, only going to point out the obvious.

They say a planted tank is a three legged stool.....Ferts/Lights/CO2.

Agree with Burr above, fert levels seem more than adequate.

CO2 drop more than a point? How much more? I drop my pH from 7.6 to 6.2 at the peak. Drop checker lime green to yellow. I wouldn't say it's an exact science. Is there room for more drop there? 

And of course, that leaves light. How uniform is the coverage from those pendants? Is the PAR high enough? 

As you know I recently redid my lights. With some species in the past I was just unsuccessful. I could have chased ferts and CO2 forever, with little results. Trying some of those same species now, it's a whole new ball game with the higher light.

So are you confident CO2 and light are good? Or could they be better? Just food for thought.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

burr740 said:


> Out of curiosity I ran those values in ppms, might help to see things clearer
> 
> https://rotalabutterfly.com/nutrient-calculator.php
> 
> ...


EXACTLY!!! That's what's got me stumped. I did the same thing to validate my calculations and got the same results. On paper no nutrient's deficient, but in practice something's pissing these plants off. It's not restricted to the stuff in lower PAR areas either. It's everywhere; right under the puck to the glass. [censored][censored][censored][censored], even the A. "petite" is going yellow. Everything's growing, but most are showing signs of problems which, in theory/on paper they shouldn't be having. 

It's going to be really hard to resist my normal tendencies to scrap everything and start from scratch pretty soon (see the reply to Greggz's post as to why). I'm the type that prefers to go slow and methodically from start to finish to make sure each little detail is right before moving on. In this case, it would mean completely tearing the tank down from substrate to sump and putting it all back together again. That's not going to happen.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Greggz said:


> Phil I'm not really qualified to be an Internet Poindexter.....but here goes anyways.:grin2:
> 
> And like you said, only going to point out the obvious.
> 
> ...


Three-legged stool eh, using my own analogy against me, eh? Well played sir, well played. 

I don't know how much more the pH is dropping, it bottomed my test out at 6 from 7. When I used it, the drop checker stopped at yellow but didn't quite get to plaid. I could open up the valve even more I suppose. I haven't gassed the fish yet. 

Light? That's improved quite a bit lately from what it was a couple months. It's 150ish right below the puck, 40 at the glass, and somewhere in between...uh...in between. I've got the high light stuff in the higher light zones and the low light stuff in the lower light zones for the most part. One of the big potential problems is shadowing. As the stuff grows it's going to shadow the [censored][censored][censored][censored] out of the stuff closer to the glass. 

Of course you had to ask the light question. I'd hoped to surprise everyone with a photo of massive improvements, sylphs swimming amongst the plants, and Neptune peeing in it personally. I've got new lights on the way. As much as I love these Radions, and I do, they just don't work as well as I need over this tank. What really kills me is that the Kessil lights which were EVERYWHERE at the AGA were kicking ass. But...after talking to their rep their single pendants don't rock the house on a 24" wide tank either. If the wife doesn't give me grief about spending the money on the new light I'll get to keep the Radions for future tanks. If not, then one's going on the market. Hopefully a tax return comes in soon to justify the expenditure. >

There is one thing about LED pucks that could potentially be contributing to the problem. Aside from individual diode effects, all the light is going in one direction and there are no bulbs next to them to cause an overlap where light is going in two directions. That means less light gets to the lower parts of the stems or other shaded areas because there's not another light source pushing light in the other direction as with fluorescent fixtures. 

*Going forward*-

Step 1: Change out the lights and wait a few weeks. 

Step 2: Hold off on the CaNO3 for a bit to figure out if it was primarily a light issue and hopefully let the plants' health improve. If not, then the CaNO3 will be added sooner rather than later. The one thing that's got me slightly leery is that the total N input is about 50/50 NH3/NO3. I haven't intentionally added ammonia to one of my personal tanks in 14 years. I really hope the light is the main culprit and the plants bounce back enough that I'd feel comfortable the whole system could handle the ammonia. 

There we have it. Hopefully some switch will flip and make a difference.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

PEdwards said:


> EXACTLY!!! That's what's got me stumped. I did the same thing to validate my calculations and got the same results. On paper no nutrient's deficient, but in practice something's pissing these plants off. It's not restricted to the stuff in lower PAR areas either. It's everywhere; right under the puck to the glass. [censored][censored][censored][censored], even the A. "petite" is going yellow. Everything's growing, but most are showing signs of problems which, in theory/on paper they shouldn't be having.
> 
> It's going to be really hard to resist my normal tendencies to scrap everything and start from scratch pretty soon (see the reply to Greggz's post as to why). I'm the type that prefers to go slow and methodically from start to finish to make sure each little detail is right before moving on. In this case, it would mean completely tearing the tank down from substrate to sump and putting it all back together again. That's not going to happen.


Personally I think you're dosing WAY too much macros, specifically P.

Nearly 10 ppm/week could be 20 in the water column after build up peaks in about a month (assuming no plant uptake but you get the picture)

That much P could be zapping all the Fe, and possibly other micros. Plus it simply isnt necessary. Dosing that much P might need a helluva lot more Fe and traces to compensate. That is, if you can avoid the dreaded "toxicity " bug that seems to plague some folks.

Both Barr and Dennis Wong dose really high P, and they also dose very high traces and Fe. 

I believe there is a correlation where the more you dose of one, the more you need of the other. Just a personal theory.

Is there a reason you're dosing over 2x standard EI levels?


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Heya Burr, I sent you a longer answer via PM at BR. 

The short answer is the level of macros is EI. My doses are 4x that recommended for a 20g tank. As for your theory of needing more of one when dosing another one high works for me. I normally like to keep a 10:1 ratio of NO3O4 but have been intentionally dosing heavily to make sure it wasn't the cause. Turns out it may be, but not for the reason we might first suspect.

From the Rutgers Uni. Master Gardener of Mercer County guide:

Nitrogen is mobile in plants. The mobility in soil is dependent on the chemical form of the element used. Organic
N is not available to plants until it has been converted to an inorganic form by soil bacteria.
*Uptake inhibited by high phosphorus levels!!!!!* (emphasis mine) N/K ratio is important: high N/low K favors vegetative growth; low
N/high K promotes flowering and fruiting.

Nitrogen is needed for vigorous vegetative leaf and stem growth and dark green leaf color (chlorophyll production).
It feeds soil microorganisms as they decompose organic matter. It is part of proteins, enzymes, chlorophyll, and
growth regulators.

Deficiency Symptoms
General: Stunted growth and shorter internodes, small pale yellow leaves. Plant may be a light green. Older
leaves affected first. Reds and purples may intensify in some plants.

Crops: Older leaves yellow, then dry, fire, or shed. Tomatoes show purpling of veins.

Broadleaf plants: Leaves are uniformly yellowish-green; this color is more pronounced in older leaves. The leaves
are small and thin, have high fall color, and drop early. Shoots are short and smaller in diameter than usual. Shoots
may be reddish or reddish brown. Flowers bloom heavily, but may be delayed. Fruit set is light. Fruits may be
highly colored, early to mature, and small. 

Those underlined symptoms are exactly what I've been experiencing. It seems a reduction in PO4 may just be in order. I just put in an extra 1/2 tsp dose of NO3 and an 1/8 tsp of dry CSM this evening. I almost want to keep this up for a while to see what happens, but I don't want to kill my plants either. I'll probably just cut PO4 in half for now.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

If you just start dosing half it's going to take three or four weeks for the levels to get down where you want them.

Lets assume your water column is currently rolling between 14 and 20 ppm. After the 3rd dose for the week, it's 20. On water change day it drops to 10 (-50%) + the 1st macro dose which brings it up to 14, and so on through the week. (your dosing 3.whatever but for simplicity's sake Im calling it 4)

Now you'd like to get it down in the 5-10 ppm range, and your starting with 20 ppm.

An 80% water change drops it to 4 ppm + 1st macro dose of 1.5 ppm = 5.5 ppm. Two more 1.5 doses = 8.5 ppm by weeks end. 

Back to a normal 50% WC = 4.25 ppm +the 1st macro dose = 5.75, and so on.


Also just from personal experience, dont freak if you get a little GSA the glass at first. Wait it out and see. If the system likes the new level (plants happier) it'll go away on it's own in a couple of weeks.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Are you assuming I don't do water changes? tsk tsk my friend.  

Then again, I could always grab some activated alumina from work and drop those levels nice and quick. I think I'll go with the big WC and reduced dose routine. Hell, I could probably get away with not dosing it for a week or two.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> I'd hoped to surprise everyone with a photo of massive improvements, sylphs swimming amongst the plants, and Neptune peeing in it personally. I've got new lights on the way. As much as I love these Radions, and I do, they just don't work as well as I need over this tank.


Phil I thought it was only a matter of time before you turbocharged the lighting. Looking forward to seeing version 2.0 of the tank....or is that 3.0....4.0?? :grin2:

I am guessing there is going to be a big difference, all positive I hope!


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Am I that transparent Gregg? 

I'm not sure what version of the tank this will be. Original woodscape 1.0 then 1.5 after the Big Bump. After that renovation 1 for v. 2.0 and re-arrangement for v. 2.5. Then redo after H2O2 for v. 3.0. Finally, redo to take out all wood and clean the TH out of the tank for final version 4.0. Not counting adding the lights as a new version, we're still on v 4.0. The entire new rescape as a (hopefully positive) result of the lights will be v. 5.0. With a little luck and a lot of willpower on my part we'll start seeing 5.1, 5.2, 5.3 etc as small group rearrangements are made. If things go really well, we may see a v. 6.0 later this year with trying another woodscape. That'll require re-soaking the wood and growing a boatload of H. pinn out though so it won't be for quite a while. 

Burr told me that this fixture has two switches, one for the two middle and one for the four outer bulbs. I'm trying to figure out if starting with the two middle rather that going directly to the outer four is best. I know I eventually want to have all six going for a while but I don't want to turn on the Sun until everything's established well. Something JUST occurred to me. If I wan't to go with another woodscape, being able to turn off the middle bulbs could potentially be a very good thing. It'll still get light, but it won't have the same issues as I did with the original set up. Hmmmmm, something to ponder for a while.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

*5.4.17 Update*- Turbo boost engaged. We've gone from a kid's bubble party to full on Lawrence Welk hour. To give fair credit, the Radions had a lot to do with that. I was actually getting choked up taking them down. As much trouble as I've had with the tank during their tenure, I really really really do like those lights a lot. That being said, this fixture is better for this tank without a doubt. Plus, the spill helps light up the living room which doesn't have a ceiling light!

I need to reconfirm with the sensor on a stick, but at this point we're looking at close to 190 at the substrate with the outer four bulbs going. Unfortunately two of the bulbs got broken in shipment, but the vendor has been very fast to respond with getting replacements. The 3x True Lumen Flora from DFS should be here tomorrow or Monday.

As exciting as this is I know the next couple of weeks are going to be a very sensitive time for the tank and I'm going to have to be on the ball to avoid a $hitstorm. 

For those who want to run the numbers-

KNO3 1tsp 3x/wk 
KH2PO4 nothing until next Monday then it'll be 1/8tsp 3x/wk 
K2SO4 1/2 tsp 3x/wk
CaSO4 2tbsp at water change
MgSO4 1 tbsp at water change
CSM 1/4 tsp 3x/wk

Unless I'm remembering wrong, we're looking at 10ppm NO3, 1ppm PO4, 12ish ppm K, 10ppm Ca, 5ppm Mg, and 0.2ppm Fe according to Zorfox. Hopefully this will un-piss off the currently pissed off plants. 

Pictures for the record.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

190 with just for bulbs on, wow! That's all 6400Ks though, or whatever they sent with it. My prediction is it drops about 20-25 with the TL Floras in there.

How far is it exactly from the bottom of the light to the sub? I want to compare mine at the same distance.

Oh yeah, I was going to do that measurement for you yesterday, but when you said the light came in I figured you didnt need it because I knew you had a meter.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

I'm going to guesstimate 23 inches to the front substrate and 21ish from the rear. They're all the 6400s that came with it, yeah. I still need to recalibrate it and tank "real" measurements, but all I can say at the moment is dayum son! I just did some quick and dirty measurements tonight out of general curiousity. I kind of want to see what it'll be with all 6 6400 going when the replacements come in. I've got plenty of sunscreen. 

I spent an hour and a half this evening trimming leaves I didn't even know had algae on them. Staghorn had taken a good hold in some of the darker areas, but wasn't in full force yet. It was still just along the edges of old nasty leaves. I also noticed a lot of GSA on the back pane that I hadn't noticed before. Yet another thing to clean up during Sunday's WC. I did a pretty good one yesterday to start the P reset and left it out of the usual Wed dosing routine. I've got a feeling that with this much light (even with the Floras) all that potential excess P is going to be gone quicker that a cake at weight watchers. All I know at the moment is that the plants were bubbling really well when I got home, but went mad not too long after I switched the lights out. 

I can already see a general re-arrangement happening in the relatively near future. Now that there's enough light to grow things anywhere in the tank I can finally get things grouped well. It may be a couple weeks or it may be a month. It all depends on how often I have to trim and how much room I have left when replanting the trimmings. I'm also seriously considering gluing the Anubias to rocks to get that piece of wood out of the way.

That's all for now folks! As I told my wife, things are either going to go really well or they're going to really badly these next couple of weeks. Let's hope vigilance and patience win out over excitement or potential frustration.

Cheers,
Phil


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Phil hope you have your seat belt on! Should be very interesting to follow the next week or two. Don't be surprised if you see some algae creep up. It happened with my new lights, but slowly faded back away. 

By the way, I know you've not been too happy with the tank, but all in all the pictures look much better than the way you describe it. It's a whole different look than you started with, and I think you are on your way to a Dutchy Freestyle.:grin2:

One thing I keep forgetting is how shallow your tank is. When those stems start taking off, looks like you better sharpen the scissors!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Wow, with that much light and assuming the plants over rule the algae, Phil might actually need a waterproof weed wacker instead of sharper scissors LOL.
Just kidding of course. I do have to agree with Gregg, the latest pictures of the tank are looking great. One thing that initially puzzled me in many of your earlier pictures was the shinny colored disks you had laying in the bottom of the tank. I soon realized those were reflections of the pendant lights. Your earlier comments regarding having 2 focal points of light possibly being an issue does make sense to me. Now with the tubes, that won't be a problem. Starting to think these "old guys" with their "old tube lights" might just be the best light source for hi-tech planted tanks.
Best of luck on the new setup, will be interesting to see how things develop.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Greggz said:


> Phil hope you have your seat belt on! Should be very interesting to follow the next week or two. Don't be surprised if you see some algae creep up. It happened with my new lights, but slowly faded back away.
> 
> By the way, I know you've not been too happy with the tank, but all in all the pictures look much better than the way you describe it. It's a whole different look than you started with, and I think you are on your way to a Dutchy Freestyle.:grin2:
> 
> One thing I keep forgetting is how shallow your tank is. When those stems start taking off, looks like you better sharpen the scissors!


I'll let you in on a little secret Gregg, I won't be happy until it's nearly perfect and looks the way I want it to. That's the aquascaper in me. Like you were asking at the start, I have a vision for this tank and right now it's nowhere near it. Once I get the plants back to being fully healthy and robust again then I'll be a lot more pleased. I got some detail shots the night before last to do a before-after comparison with in a couple weeks. We'll have to see how things have changed then. 

BAH, Dutchy Freestyle? Planted tank. Repeat - Planted tank. LOL I have no idea what it's going to look like in the weeks to come other than the plants are going to be grouped up. I'm pretty serious about wanting to go back and do a woodscape again. That's why I got this tank. Regardless, I've got the scissor sharpener ready to go. Things are going to get busy in there, for sure.



Immortal1 said:


> Wow, with that much light and assuming the plants over rule the algae, Phil might actually need a waterproof weed wacker instead of sharper scissors LOL.
> Just kidding of course. I do have to agree with Gregg, the latest pictures of the tank are looking great. One thing that initially puzzled me in many of your earlier pictures was the shinny colored disks you had laying in the bottom of the tank. I soon realized those were reflections of the pendant lights. Your earlier comments regarding having 2 focal points of light possibly being an issue does make sense to me. Now with the tubes, that won't be a problem. Starting to think these "old guys" with their "old tube lights" might just be the best light source for hi-tech planted tanks.
> Best of luck on the new setup, will be interesting to see how things develop.


LOL Linn, I've got four sets of scissors, hopefully they'll do what I need them to do. Those weren't disks or reflections...they were flying saucers. Thank you for the kind words. I'll try to get some detail pics at some point. I had to do a trim on some of the groups so it's not looking quite as nice as it could.

Old guys with their old tube lights? AH Supply was at the AGA this past weekend and were still selling the 55 watt PC retrofit kits I used from 2001 all the way up to 2011. Talk about old tube lights and some nostalgia! 

Want to hear something sad? I had a nice 6x T5HO fixture already that I sold with all the rest of my misc aquarium stuff so I could get the Radions. That thing grew the everloving $hit out of plants in the old 60. I've said "Coverage more than intensity" for years but I really wanted to try the radions though, and it was worth doing. I actually think this fixture might end up being better than the other one and I still have the Radions for future tanks. 

Cheerios,
Phil


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Silghtly better PAR readings

Heya, I just took a round of PAR readings that weren't quite as "quick and dirty" as the ones last night. The "ish"es are a result of the ripple at the surface creating some variability.

Corners= 100ish
Mid front along the glass = 170ish
Middle of the tank = 200ish
In the middle of the stem bunches, halfway up the tank = 200ish


Looks like I'm going to have to do a few things:
1. Get the Floras in as soon as I can and remeasure
2. Raise the light a bit
3. Be hypervigilant for algae
4. Do a mid-week water change for a while. That's going to piss the Mrs. off as the CO2 goes off at 6 and the lights go out at 7...right in the middle of prime dinner time.
5. Fight tooth and nail against the desire to pull all the plants out, clean the hell out of the substrate, and replant them in better looking groups. That has to wait a while.


There are still a couple tiny straggling bits of TC HC in there somewhere. I wonder if this better light is going to get them to grow. Wouldn't that be something if one tiny little bit grows into a lawn out of nowhere.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Think Im going to rename mine '120 Gallon Aquatic Garden'

Cant have Phil looking down his nose at me! :red_mouth


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

burr740 said:


> Think Im going to rename mine '120 Gallon Aquatic Garden'
> 
> Cant have Phil looking down his nose at me! :red_mouth


That's funny Burr. I threw the Dutchy Freestyle bomb out there knowing it was going to get a response.

And I get it. Dutch really is a very particular style. 

So I guess now "Aquatic Garden" it is!! Respect!:grin2:


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

burr740 said:


> Think Im going to rename mine '120 Gallon Aquatic Garden'
> 
> Cant have Phil looking down his nose at me! :red_mouth


BUAHAHAHA! If anyone should be looking down their nose they should be looking at me, not the other way around. Call you tank whatever the hell you want, it's your tank.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Whelp, the Floras came in last night and I put some in. Not sure if I like the heavy pink tint too much so I only put two in, one each in the middle and rear sections alternating with the 6400K. The front two are still 6400s. I'd thought the light was bright with just the front and back two bulbs in, but turning the middle two on as well....holy cow! I feel like Clark Griswold the way he always overdoes things...

Cheers,
Phil


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Give your eyes a day or two to get used to the new color before making a decision. After you've looked at that for a little bit the other way will look abnormally strange to you.

Of course, you may never like the new color scheme, but it has a lot to do with what you're eyes are used to. A significant change in spectrum always looks weird at first.

Sometimes if Im doing maintenance outside the photo period, I'll only have 2 or 4 bulbs on. After 2-3 hours of looking at that, flipping all 6 on is kinda shocking like....ew!


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

I'm going to leave them in for a while. Mostly since I paid good money for them.  I've run a 7000K light system for most of my plant keeping days, with the exception of PA and AL setups that the current bulbs are starkly different to my eye. I think as long as I keep the Flora confined to the rear it'll be ok. What bothered me most was the substrate looking pinkish...yuck! Right now only the outer four bulbs are on and the one Flora is in the back next to the middle array.

Small update-

The plants continue to grow well and overall I'd say I'm 80-85% satisfied at the moment, but yellowing of new leaves persists. After no P dosing for a week and two 60%+ water changes I have a hard time considering it to be a P problem any longer. For now I'm going to keep the nutrient regimen as I posted above except doubling the Mg. The additional K2SO4 brings K up to levels that I would consider non-limiting as well as the 1/4 tsp CSM to get 0.2ppm Fe. I know Burr, I know.  With all the extra light the plants aren't used to yet I really really need to make sure things aren't deficient. I'd hate to kill the majority of them by trying to help them. Since it's the new leaves Mg is the most likely culprit, but it could be K, N, or Fe too. We'll start with Mg and see how it goes. The one thing that I'm not 100% keen on is these levels of K are going to cause the stems to go horizontal like nobody's business which Gregg's L. sp. Thai has already done trying to make a run for the border.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> The one thing that I'm not 100% keen on is these levels of K are going to cause the stems to go horizontal like nobody's business which Gregg's L. sp. Thai has already done trying to make a run for the border.


Phil good news is you can't kill that plant if you tried. It has survived every toxic soup I have thrown at it. 

But I'm curious, high K levels making plants go horizontal? Tell me more. Never heard of this, and trying to learn all I can.

And I agree with Burr, give the Flora's some time. Our eyes adjust after awhile. When I see a tank with only 6500K daylight bulbs, the whole tank looks yellow to me. That's because I've been using colored bulbs for years in my tank. And when the plants start showing more color, the Flora should enhance the look (at least to my old eyes!).

Have you taken new PAR measurements with all 6 bulbs on?? I think I'm at the edge of too much light, and I'm guessing you just blew right past me!


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Pink sub? Mine in the 50 is jet black with those same two bulbs (agrobrite 6400K and TLF)


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Greggz said:


> Phil good news is you can't kill that plant if you tried. It has survived every toxic soup I have thrown at it.
> 
> But I'm curious, high K levels making plants go horizontal? Tell me more. Never heard of this, and trying to learn all I can.
> 
> ...


It's only a wild-ass guess on my part, but in past high light tanks I've kept, having "higher" 15ppm+ K seems to encourage horizontal growth whereas "lower" K somehow doesn't do the same. 

LOL, after going from the LED to T5 the whole tank was yellow, for sure. I got used to it pretty quick though as I'd had tanks with that color light in the past so it looked more "normal" to me.

No, I haven't taken any PAR measurements with them all on. I should, but I'm lazy. We'll see if I can remember to do it tonight.



burr740 said:


> Pink sub? Mine in the 50 is jet black with those same two bulbs (agrobrite 6400K and TLF)


Yeah, the substrate had a pink hue with the Flora directly over it. It's probably a result of the stuff not being truly black. *shrug*


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> 4. Do a mid-week water change for a while. That's going to piss the Mrs. off as the CO2 goes off at 6 and the lights go out at 7...right in the middle of prime dinner time.


So I'm not the only one who prefers to do water changes and maintenance around the photoperiod!


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Axelrodi202 said:


> So I'm not the only one who prefers to do water changes and maintenance around the photoperiod!


Nope. I'm on a noon to 11:00pm lighting schedule and try to get mine done in the morning before lights on.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

@Greggz

PAR with all 6 bulbs; 4x 6400 and 2x TLF

Surface Middle: 340ish
Mid-tank middle: 280ish
Mid-tank substrate: 190ish
Front left and right corners: 170ish

That's with the fixture about a 13" above the water's surface and about 27" from the substrate. I honestly don't think I could supply enough CO2 to this tank to sustain growth with those PAR levels. At least not without having to refill the 20 pounder every month. Along the same vein, the algae you mentioned is here. I'm seeing staghorn growing on most of the Crypts and other slower growers and the dreaded TH is trying to make a comeback. It's going to be hard to be patient and wait it out without going nutso. So I turned the CO2 up a smidge to a raging torrent vs. river in full flood and have it shutting off a half hour later; 30 min before lights out.

Time to turn the middles off now before they burn the plants.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Axelrodi202 said:


> So I'm not the only one who prefers to do water changes and maintenance around the photoperiod!





Jeff5614 said:


> Nope. I'm on a noon to 11:00pm lighting schedule and try to get mine done in the morning before lights on.


For me it's not as much about working around the photoperiod as it is not disturbing the CO2 cycle. Once the gas shuts off then I know I can do the WC without upsetting things too badly.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Wow thats some strong light Bud. And I thought I was good at 120 par at very corners. When the lights come on does the city power dim? LOL They must have a backup generator just for you


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

lol, nice title


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## awesometim1 (Oct 31, 2013)

Crazy- but more light does not necessarily mean better plant growth. Rather, it can decrease the rate of photosynthesis. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

burr740 said:


> lol, nice title


I thought you might like that. My little gift to you. 



awesometim1 said:


> Crazy- but more light does not necessarily mean better plant growth. Rather, it can decrease the rate of photosynthesis.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, photorespiration's a real thing. So far growth has noticeably improved since changing the light. I'm starting to think reducing the photoperiod for a bit and upping the CO2 even more would help. I do know that I'm going to have to get the 2nd 20 pounder refilled soon to have a backup.

At this point it's just a matter of paying careful attention to what the ecosystem is saying and responding appropriately.

Oh, and being patient; something I'm really bad at these days.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> Surface Middle: 340ish
> Mid-tank middle: 280ish
> Mid-tank substrate: 190ish
> Front left and right corners: 170ish


Holy Cow! Now that is some serious PAR!! 170ish in the corners, there's no place to hide. FYI after increasing my lighting, I ended up removing all my crypts. 

I believe you are in some mostly uncharted territory there. Good luck and looking forward to seeing where this new fork in the road takes you.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

To the guys who recently 'liked' my post about Phil's new title, you might've missed the joke.

Earlier this afternoon it was "80- Gal Dutchy Backstroke" lol


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

burr740 said:


> To the guys who recently 'liked' my post about Phil's new title, you might've missed the joke.
> 
> Earlier this afternoon it was "80- Gal Dutchy Backstroke" lol


Oh I saw hahaha just didn't get around to reading the posts in the thread yet.
Also, 300+ umol of PAR is madness! Like you said providing sufficient CO2 and limiting photorespiration is a serious thing to be wary of.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Greggz said:


> Holy Cow! Now that is some serious PAR!! 170ish in the corners, there's no place to hide. FYI after increasing my lighting, I ended up removing all my crypts.
> 
> I believe you are in some mostly uncharted territory there. Good luck and looking forward to seeing where this new fork in the road takes you.


NO! I will not remove my beloved Crypts, never! I'll find some where to keep them. There'll have to be shade somewhere. To be frank, I'm a bit leery of all this light. I think the only other time I've run a tank with this much was a 90gal with a pair of 250w HQI over it. That was for grins and giggles, this is not. To eat my own words, I think this tank is going to be on the knife's edge of stability for quite a while. A little nudge or screw up has the potential for causing major problems. We'll have to wait and see. I'm certainly not going to be using the middle array any time soon. Perhaps only for pictures. 

Or, I might use the middle two and call it good. Just tested with only the middle two lights, 6400K and TLF and the readings are a lot like what I was getting with the Radions, only a bit more consistent. I suddenly find myself seriously tempted to switch out the TLF for another 6400 and use only the middle array. It's nice to know that's a valid option should push come to shove.

What I would LOVE to have is a 4/6/8 bulb fixture where you could have half of them on at once with them alternating 1,3/2,4 etc. That would be perfect.



burr740 said:


> To the guys who recently 'liked' my post about Phil's new title, you might've missed the joke.
> 
> Earlier this afternoon it was "80- Gal Dutchy Backstroke" lol


Once I knew you saw it I didn't want to leave it up in case someone got confused or all pissy thinking I was making fun of you or something. Then again, the current name is also a tongue-in-cheek joke too. <3



Opare said:


> Oh I saw hahaha just didn't get around to reading the posts in the thread yet.
> Also, 300+ umol of PAR is madness! Like you said providing sufficient CO2 and limiting photorespiration is a serious thing to be wary of.


Opare, the 300+ was with the sensor just barely submerged at the surface in the most expose part of the tank. What's more telling to me is the reading mid-tank in the middle. THAT'S a lot of light that far down. But again, those readings were with all the bulbs going, which I'm not going to do unless I get a taller tank or change up the bulbs for different spectral output and less PAR.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

PEdwards said:


> Once I knew you saw it I didn't want to leave it up in case someone got confused or all pissy thinking I was making fun of you or something. Then again, the current name is also a tongue-in-cheek joke too. <3


Hah, I actually changed mine to "Dutchy Butterfly" when I saw yours. But I changed it back after you did. :red_mouth


As for these latest par measurements, you might as well stock up on this and start planning a new layout


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> What I would LOVE to have is a 4/6/8 bulb fixture where you could have half of them on at once with them alternating 1,3/2,4 etc. That would be perfect.


It shouldn't be that hard to modify your six bulb unit to do exactly as described. More than likely, you have 3 ballasts in the fixture. If so, you could easily wire them to be on three separate plugs.

That's how mine is set up. Three ballast, three plugs, on three cheap mechanical timers. Lighting period starts off with 2 bulbs, then 4, then 6, then 4, then 2. All six are only on for 4 hours currently in the middle of the photo period.

And it's easy to modify if trying to fine tune. Just a thought.


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

Do you think chucking in some floaters temporarily during this precarious time could help? Just to beef up the plant mass and maybe provide a little shade? Although I do imagine your tank has quite a bit of flow so floaters may not do well.
One thing I always forget is how shallow your tank is so the strength of lights is quite different to how the same fixture would operate in more standard dimensions. Yeah having the 6 bulbs is a nice option, but like you said probably won't be as useful in this setup right now.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

burr740 said:


> Hah, I actually changed mine to "Dutchy Butterfly" when I saw yours. But I changed it back after you did. :red_mouth
> 
> 
> As for these latest par measurements, you might as well stock up on this and start planning a new layout


Oh, you mean like my other tank?




Greggz said:


> It shouldn't be that hard to modify your six bulb unit to do exactly as described. More than likely, you have 3 ballasts in the fixture. If so, you could easily wire them to be on three separate plugs.
> 
> That's how mine is set up. Three ballast, three plugs, on three cheap mechanical timers. Lighting period starts off with 2 bulbs, then 4, then 6, then 4, then 2. All six are only on for 4 hours currently in the middle of the photo period.
> 
> And it's easy to modify if trying to fine tune. Just a thought.


If it's indeed on triple ballasts then I might be able to find someone to wire it. If I try it I'll end up breaking the fixture.



Opare said:


> Do you think chucking in some floaters temporarily during this precarious time could help? Just to beef up the plant mass and maybe provide a little shade? Although I do imagine your tank has quite a bit of flow so floaters may not do well.
> One thing I always forget is how shallow your tank is so the strength of lights is quite different to how the same fixture would operate in more standard dimensions. Yeah having the 6 bulbs is a nice option, but like you said probably won't be as useful in this setup right now.


I think the floaters would just get stuck on the overflow intake and end up flooding the floor. It's only got 1/2" or so from the water's surface to the top of the tank. I have to remove the strainer in the overflow when I go away to lower the water and make sure it doesn't overflow. Needless to say, floaters are out. 

Well, I've seen some people be very successful with six bulb fixtures over tanks just a couple inches taller than mine... I'm sure I can figure it out somehow........eventually.



Update- Staghorn continues to invade the tank and I'm starting to see what looks like cyano in some places. I'll be doing spot vacuuming of that for the next couple of days. As much as I wanted to wait, I think the algae's forcing my hand into doing a full scale cleaning and replanting/rearrangement. It's a bummer too as there are lots of new little buds coming out of a lot of the stems and I don't want to disturb them. Sadly, those little buds are growing out of nasty old stems that need to go. 

Cheers,
Phil


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Tee hee hee


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

I'm really starting to get over these types of substrates. The only truly decent one I've used in Aquasoil. The rest are too light, break down too easily, and compact like nobody's business. Good ol' 2-3mm silica sand is likely in this tank's future. Until then, enjoy.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

BDBS for the win :smile2:


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Daaaaaaamn 

Pics like that are why Ive never pulled the trigger on Aquasoil, much less a knock off version. I like to move things around too much. 

If you're thinking about a dark color look into blasting sand, Black Diamond and Black Beauty are the two brands Im aware. Me and Tractor Supply has the former


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Yup this is the stuff. Super easy to plant in. Plants root very good in it. And doesn't kick up like I thought it would. 










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## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

clownplanted said:


> Yup this is the stuff. Super easy to plant in. Plants root very good in it. And doesn't kick up like I thought it would.


There is probably a couple bags of this in my future. Will you take a pic that shows the size of the grit so I'll know where to look and that I am buying the right thing when I go?
Thanks


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## awesometim1 (Oct 31, 2013)

Lol product must stay dry


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

awesometim1 said:


> Lol product must stay dry
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Was gonna say the same thing LOL.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Ben Belton said:


> There is probably a couple bags of this in my future. Will you take a pic that shows the size of the grit so I'll know where to look and that I am buying the right thing when I go?
> Thanks




20/40 medium










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## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

Hey Thanks!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Phil I take you are now going right to version 5.0????

Watching with great interest. This thread is like a good book.......lots of twists and turns.

Looking forward to the next chapter.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Yeah, I guess this is v. 5.0. It's really just a replanting and re-arranging of everything to get it all grouped up now that there's full coverage. Turned all 6 bulbs on and jacked the light as high as it would go; 18ish inches from water's surface. In response, I cut the photoperiod to 7 hours. May cut it to 6 if things look like they need it. A major algae trim will be happening after the plants have had a chance to settle in. 

It's either a good book or a two lane mountain road at night..with a heavy fog.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Every. Single. Time. I level the sub in front it comes out like this in the end. Good thing the plants look ok.

5.15.17









Yes, I used C. wendtii 'Tropica' to make the street. <3

There's some semblance of design on the left half and far right side, but the center and center-right is dedicated to growing the species I only have a single or couple stems of. Or, in the case of the AR 'mini' that had difficulty recovering after a major hack. Flow's pretty good right now. Moving the wood to where it is now, putting the main outlet in the middle to get a front and rear gyre, and tossing the powerhead on the front left to give front flow a little extra power seems to be the best I can do under present circumstances.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> Yes, I used C. wendtii 'Tropica' to make the street. <3


Phil will be interesting to see how those crypts works out as a street.

When my tank was lower tech, I kept many varieties of crypts. From under the tank, you could see the huge amount of roots as they spread throughout the tank. New crypts would pop up all over the place. Quite impressive actually.

If left to it's own devices, that street might turn into a super highway over time.:wink2:

My other thought is that those will be great "before" pictures, as I'm sure the tank will start filling in rapidly now.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Looks very nice.




Please do not get algae again....:nerd:


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Greggz said:


> Phil will be interesting to see how those crypts works out as a street.
> 
> When my tank was lower tech, I kept many varieties of crypts. From under the tank, you could see the huge amount of roots as they spread throughout the tank. New crypts would pop up all over the place. Quite impressive actually.
> 
> ...


Gregg, I think the Crypts will do ok. Once they start putting out runners it'll just be a matter of tracking them down and snipping them. It may actually end up being easier to maintain than a more traditional stem street. We'll see. Yet another reason this is a "planted tank". 

I wish I could, but I put down a wood and yoga mat sheet on the frame to be extra sure the tank would be ok. I've had other tank in the past where such massive root structures were visible though. It was beautiful. 

Yeah, they will be good before pictures. Hopefully the after will look as good. 



StrungOut said:


> Looks very nice.
> 
> Please do not get algae again....:nerd:


Thank you, and don't jinx me.  There's some TH in there in some places that needs to get removed and little bits of something (staghorn, maybe?) on just about everything. It's going to be a continuing battle for a while.


I think I need to up CO2- the light didn't come on at the appointed time so the tank was dark with CO2 running with no light for 7 hours and all the fish were swimming around normally.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

PEdwards said:


> Gregg, I think the Crypts will do ok. Once they start putting out runners it'll just be a matter of tracking them down and snipping them. It may actually end up being easier to maintain than a more traditional stem street. We'll see. Yet another reason this is a "planted tank".
> 
> I wish I could, but I put down a wood and yoga mat sheet on the frame to be extra sure the tank would be ok. I've had other tank in the past where such massive root structures were visible though. It was beautiful.
> 
> ...


How good is your surface movement? I have two powerheads ripping the surface and I have run 40ppm of co2 with no lights and the fish are swimming around fine for hours. The yellow drop checker and kh/ph test confirms the levels. Its all about how much o2 they have really and the more surface movement the more co2 you can run ultimately without issue I noticed.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

clownplanted said:


> How good is your surface movement? I have two powerheads ripping the surface and I have run 40ppm of co2 with no lights and the fish are swimming around fine for hours. The yellow drop checker and kh/ph test confirms the levels. Its all about how much o2 they have really and the more surface movement the more co2 you can run ultimately without issue I noticed.


I've got pretty good movement, but mostly just low ripples since the current isn't super close to the surface. I do have an overflow and sump, however. I guess it's possible that there's enough oxygenation that the fish don't get distressed. Still, I'm a bit skeptical as the CO2 was on for a good 6-7 hours before I got home. Even though I'm glad the fish weren't having issues, I would expect there to be some sort of problem with as much CO2 as I'm currently pumping in. Then again, I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time with this tank.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Ok, so the TH algae is back. I will seriously, as in all seriousness, need your support to get through it. There have been too many changes to this tank in too short an amount of time. I have to, have to, let it settle down and let the plants do their thing, come BBA or Trump Hair. 

Observations- the TH likes fine textured things; moss, roots, fine leaved plants, etc in areas of medium to lowish flow. I'm not sure exactly what sparks it as I'm only dosing less than I used to in all respects. The filter was cleaned not too long ago, but I may do it again just because. In fact, I may give it a full out 100% empty and vaccuum. 

This current build has really knocked down my self-respect when it comes to planted tanks and I need some measure of success to build it back up. This is it. I've done everything I know to do with this current build. I did have a thought in the shower this morning; the tank itself, literally the aquarium box, may be working against me. The shallow dimension seems to have been a hinderance, rather than benefit, from the get-go. What's killed me is seeing all the other tanks where people have absolutely nailed an aquascape in tanks with very similar dimensions. It's set as best as I can get it so all I can do now is wait. Be prepared for a lot of bitching and whining. I've got very little patience and get really frustrated/angry very easily these days and y'all are the equivalent of my local plant club so I turn to you, my internet poindexter friends. 

Thanks,
Phil


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

PEdwards said:


> Ok, so the TH algae is back. I will seriously, as in all seriousness, need your support to get through it. There have been too many changes to this tank in too short an amount of time. I have to, have to, let it settle down and let the plants do their thing, come BBA or Trump Hair.
> 
> Observations- the TH likes fine textured things; moss, roots, fine leaved plants, etc in areas of medium to lowish flow. I'm not sure exactly what sparks it as I'm only dosing less than I used to in all respects. The filter was cleaned not too long ago, but I may do it again just because. In fact, I may give it a full out 100% empty and vaccuum.
> 
> ...


Tripple dose excel or metricide. I use metricide because it is much cheaper. Seriously if you OD on excel it will kill the hardest to kill algae. Right now its killing my small spots of BBA that I started getting. I have actually been 5x dosing metricide with no ill effects to all my livestock and is killing the BBA. So far after just two days of OD on metricide the BBA is already turning red and almost all dead.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> Ok, so the TH algae is back. I will seriously, as in all seriousness, need your support to get through it. There have been too many changes to this tank in too short an amount of time. I have to, have to, let it settle down and let the plants do their thing, come BBA or Trump Hair.


Phil as I've said I'm a student not a teacher.

But I certainly can offer my support. 

And I do agree with your comments above.

When I have made big changes, like when I increased my lighting, it helped me to let things develop resisting the urge to trim/move things too drastically. And I had a pretty good outbreak of algae. Once the plants rooted, established, and grew a bit, it seemed like they could take more abuse. I trimmed them down, removed the algae, and now things are much, much better.

Good luck and I am pulling for you, and hoping your tank thrives.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Damn, that sucks. Is this new substrate or the same stuff?

Is the sump all clean? Pic from the other day looked like a helluva lot of dust to run through a system.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Greggz said:


> Phil as I've said I'm a student not a teacher.
> 
> But I certainly can offer my support.
> 
> ...


Thanks Gregg!




burr740 said:


> Damn, that sucks. Is this new substrate or the same stuff?
> 
> Is the sump all clean? Pic from the other day looked like a helluva lot of dust to run through a system.


The sump's pretty clean, all things considered. However, due to the renovation I'm going to fully clean it, as in take everything out, service the pumps, clean half the filter pads, drain the water and shop-vac it, this weekend when I have the time. I typically clean the prefilters in the overflow every couple of days so the worst of it gets taken out before going into the sump. As far as nastiness from the renovations; I do all that with the filter off. It's typically an uproot, mix up the substrate really well and mound it in back, fully drain w/wet-dry along the front where the glass shows, re-level it somewhat, refill fluff up any dust, drain, plant, then refill. It's a multi-step process.  Some dust does get into the filter, but it's not the mud that showed in the picture. I do my best to get all that out before refilling. 

Yeah, it's the same old substrate. It was a gift from one of my friends at Seachem so I feel bad not using it. That being said, if push comes to shove I can always use it for emergent growing.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Most all plants i see in your picture are slower growers are they not Phil? I would still try working on reducing lighting, or or or fill in with faster growing plants that you can keep trimming and propagating and fill in the entire aquarium. My advice is you need more stock in plants and more faster growing species, i do see a little rotala in there, they're starting to reach the surface by now are they not? 

plants like
pantanal
belem
rotalas
the list can go on and on but not to good with scientific names


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Let's see, 

I've got a quite a few different fast growers, some bunches larger than others:

Ludwigia- repens, "sp. Thai", which looks a lot like the repens cohort, and a ton of rugosa.
Rotala- various varieties of indica and nanjenshan
Hygrophila- difformis
Bacopa- caroliniana and a few stems of monneri
Lobelia cardinalis will grow pretty fast once it gets going

It may not look like it from the pictures, but the tank's actually pretty full at the moment. Most of the stuff in the middle is fairly small though. That being said, there is a lot of biomass from "slow growers" in there like the big bunch of Crypt 'Tropica' and the Anubias wood. I'm not sure if folks count Alternanthera as a slow grower or not these days. I tend to lump it in the average/medium category. Regardless, there is a significant amount in there and most of that is small stubs that haven't been doing too well for a while.

As far as lighting goes, other than running only the two middle bulbs, I've done just about everything I can do to reduce light input. The light's as far up as it can go and I've reduced the photoperiod to 7 hours. I could go down to 6 if I feel it's really really necessary, but I'd rather not if it can be avoided.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

PEdwards said:


> Yeah, it's the same old substrate. It was a gift from one of my friends at Seachem so I feel bad not using it. That being said, if push comes to shove I can always use it for emergent growing.


I just keep trying to think what might be different now than in your previous successes. Because it's not like you woke up one day and forgot how to grow plants.

The substrate seems like a big red flag, but it may have nothing to do with it.

As for reducing the light, lots of folks use plastic egg crate diffusers as a tank top to cut down on light. Obviously that's out of the question, but Ive wondered about securing the egg crate to the bottom of the light itself.

Wouldnt be hard to rig up some little mounting brackets or something. Just a thought


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

That's a good question, let's look back in time to my first truly high-tech tanks and work our way here. It's going to be a long post.

Keep in mind that until August of 2003 when I returned to school my only collegiate education was in Music Education. I hardly had any formal science background at all.

Early 2001

*20g* high with flourite, 55w PC, reverse undergravel filter, and PPMD/Proto-EI ferts
*90g* with play sand and kitty litter substrate, 300 odd watts of 6500 PC light, CO2, Old school overflow training into a trash can full of lava rock inside a 20 long (Offgassing, what?). CO2 is injected into the pump intake where it went through a DIY PVC spraybar along the bottom a few inches over the substate. PPMD/Proto-EI ferts 

Both grew plants well, though we wouldn't call them great by today's standards, they were good for that time. The 20 gallon was entered in the AGA biotope category in 2002 and did well. Not that there was much competition....

2003
*Same 90g *with same light, flourite substrate (TOP of the line at that time), EI ferts, CO2 into a DIY inline PVC reactor (all hardplumbed, the water was shunted from the main return and then re-connected to the return above the reactor). This is the 2003 Discus tank that took a ribbon in the AGA that year. [censored][censored][censored][censored] grew really well in there. The only time there were algae issues was when I let the glosso grow too high near the glass and cyano started creeping up in that area.

*Same 20g* with same light and Red Sea plant substrate (soil stuff, way cool man!), CO2, EI ferts, Eheim filter (I think?), Red Sea ceramic/glass diffuser (not the best, but great for the time). This tank didn't do so well. At the time I blamed it on the sketchy CO2 and I'd still say that was a big cause. Not doing big water changes after kicking up the soil likely contributed too. This eventually became a reef.

2003-2006 saw the inclusion of a bunch of tanks in the finished downstairs of the house. Some were CO2 injected grow tanks, others were mid-low tech grow tanks. They weren't masterpieces by any stretch, but they grew plants well enough with little algae, most likely due to the T-12 lighting.

2006-2008: The Graduate School Years
*Same 90g*, same lights, 2 eheim Pro2 2078(?) filters, same old Flourite, started with CO2 but I didn't refill it. Tank was chock full of Red Tiger Lotus and Watersprite. The plants did fine mostly due to their access to atmospheric CO2. Really low maintenance system for a time when I didn't have much time or money to keep up a high tech tank.

2008-2009: Atlanta! 
*Bought a 75g* with really nice furniture, all ADA substrate and the same old PC retrofit kits from 2001, with new bulbs, of course.  This got pressurized CO2 fed into a powerhead and eventually a diffuser and EI ferts once everything settled down. The first four or five months were rediculous. I've NEVER has as much trouble with a tank as I did then. Of course, we didn't know the stuff about Amazonia that we do now. This was the only display tank I've had where the shrimp didn't die.

*New 90g* with an internal overflow which I stupidly drilled through so I could hook up a canister rather than use the sump that came with it. Pressurized CO2, EI ferts, and all that. Did so/so due to the too much light. Eventually became the west african biotope in the 2008 AGA category.

*Same 20g* new 55w PC, Amazonia, pressurized CO2 and full ferts. Had similar issues to the 75, but not as bad. Eventually became a grow out tank for HAP points.

2009-20011: Dallas!
Sold all the tanks, lights, and most of the rest of my aquarium crap to save on moving. Used the funds to buy a beautiful custom 225 from some reefers in town that needed it gone. 2-3mm quartz sand, PC lights, Aquamedic 1000 reactor inline with a closed loop, reef sump filter, and EI dosing with expired lab reagents. Once the wife became the ex and I moved out the tank changed into a soil system where I tested out various mixtures to see how they worked. CO2 was changed to a Cerges, still inline, and it still got ferts.

Sept 2011-April 2012: Seattle and Japan!
Was living with my dad in his small apt so I couldn't have a tank. Eventually got a wabi kusa when I got to Japan, that was fun. Not terribly high tech, but it wasn't just the simple wabi kusa in water either. I couldn't help turning it into a little paludarium with ferts and soil. Real ADA stuff bought in Japan. Getting it gave me a nerdgasm.

July 2013-Oct 2015: Working for Brightwell Aquatics
I had more aquariums and aquarium crap to play with than I knew what to do with. I think the Aquaman Cave journal's around here somewhere. Eventually settled on the 60 gallon Deep Blue with a 6x T5HO Aquatic Life fixture with bulb combination fairly similar to what Burr's running now. CO2, soil substrate, all the ferts and the works. Plants grew like mad. The 300 became an emergent growth tank where I learned a lot about how to keep, and kill, aquarium plants above water.

Feb 2015, moved to a tiny little town in Alabama and set up the 60 again "Temporary Insanity" a couple months before I got let go. Maintained that until Oct when I moved back to Charlotte and had to live with the folks. Got a job, went into the psych ward, didn't leave the house for three months, got a job cleaning tanks at an LFS, eventually became curator and started a nano reef while I worked on getting a replacement for the 60 that got chipped during the move. Eventually got the 80 gallon, which brings us up to the current day.


So, what's different with this system than my previous successes? The CPR overflow and sump, Seachem substrate (which is very similar to Brightwell's), much shallower tank than all except the 60 gallon, much larger Cerges on a much smaller tank than the 225, not ADA soil substrate, not inert substrate, light? I'm not sure about, 


I think the defining factor is the dimensions of the tank. As we found out at near full power the return can easily blow the substrate into piles where it's not wanted so it gets throttled back, but that much current is needed to circulate water around the tank. Starting with the woodscape and (unknown to me) [censored][censored][censored][censored]ty CO2 reactor caused all sorts of problems that persisted until the present day (TH, I'm looking at you!).

I've written a lot and my eyes and brain are tired. If you can think of anything in common, or dissimilar that I've missed feel free to chime in.


Cheers,
Phil


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

I have always appreciated a good history!!!:grin2:

Joking aside it is nice to know someone's journey through this aquatic experiment.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Phil enjoyed reading and learning a little of your history. Always interesting to get a glimpse into someone on the forum. It's funny, you read enough of someone's post, and in your mind you a develop a personality, voice, and caricature of them. Just so you know, for me so far you have been Len Goodman from Dancing with the Stars.:grin2::grin2:

I might do the same sometime, but mine starts off in 1978, and would take a VERY long post. 

Think 90 gallon with Arowana's, Clown Knifefish's, and plastic plants. Really gotta dig up a picture of that sometime.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

I just want to say thank you to all of you. I am fairly new to high tech. Just learned a bunch. If this were a book there would be pages with post it notes sticking out the top. Good stuff!!


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Oh, if we count actual fish tanks, not planted, well...that would go back farther. Not quite to 78, but fairly close, old man.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Also, keep in mind this is just a list of the high-tech tanks I've kept. Low tech started in the late 90s.


The whole point of that long post was to try answering Burr's question of commonalities between tanks that have been more successful in the past than this current system. There really aren't that many common points except for one thing I can think of; dimensions and flow, but even that's sort of stymied by the 60 gallon. *shrug*

Bump:


mbkemp said:


> I just want to say thank you to all of you. I am fairly new to high tech. Just learned a bunch. If this were a book there would be pages with post it notes sticking out the top. Good stuff!!


LOL, yeah, this is a great Guide to How Not to Set Up a Plant Tank.

Thank you for the kind words.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Have you done the tripple dose of excel/metricide? I was starting to get staghorn and bba and it has since pretty much killed it off. I am on day 4 and all signs points to it being gone very shortly. I know I started getting mine from when I had too much light. The excel/metricide OD for sure helps. If you have not I for sure recommend it.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

clownplanted said:


> Tripple dose excel or metricide. I use metricide because it is much cheaper. Seriously if you OD on excel it will kill the hardest to kill algae. Right now its killing my small spots of BBA that I started getting. I have actually been 5x dosing metricide with no ill effects to all my livestock and is killing the BBA. So far after just two days of OD on metricide the BBA is already turning red and almost all dead.


5x the daily dose, or initial? Do you account for the higher concentration of glut. in metricide? Just wondering, might have to do something similar. Getting a little bit off stag after the BBA died off.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Malakian said:


> 5x the daily dose, or initial? Do you account for the higher concentration of glut. in metricide? Just wondering, might have to do something similar. Getting a little bit off stag after the BBA died off.


5x daily dose, not initial. Initial even higher. So far so good and it has totally wiped the algae. Yes I account for the higher concentration. I pre-mix 300ml metricide with 200ml ro water which gives me the 1.5% that excel has. But yes I have been doing 5x the dose amount. All of my fish and even amano shrimp do not seem to mind. It works great against stag. After 2-3 days most of the stag was red(dead). I just did a trimming today to take out the dead stuff. And it has not been spreading since the OD of metricide. After about 4 days its pretty much gone.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

What type of fish if I could ask? 


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Clownplanted,

No, I haven't used the concentrated Metricide treatment. I've done a concentrated Excel treatement in the past, but I prefer not to use it as a regular method of algae control. I just need to let the system stabilize and adjust to all the major changes before getting all up in arms about algae. 

The one thing I have done is add a powerhead on the left side front and back to help improve circulation. the water's moving pretty fast now, and there are no dead spots.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

PEdwards said:


> Clownplanted,
> 
> No, I haven't used the concentrated Metricide treatment. I've done a concentrated Excel treatement in the past, but I prefer not to use it as a regular method of algae control. I just need to let the system stabilize and adjust to all the major changes before getting all up in arms about algae.
> 
> The one thing I have done is add a powerhead on the left side front and back to help improve circulation. the water's moving pretty fast now, and there are no dead spots.


Yes I agree with you there. For sure need to get to the source or it just comes back. But for me when I found the source the algaecide treatment ensured it died fast and would not come back. I never suggest to anyone to do this method unless they get to the source first. I just absolutely hate algae as it is not welcome in my tank at all. So I like to ensure it is eradicated.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> I just need to let the system stabilize and adjust to all the major changes before getting all up in arms about algae.


Phil this brings to mind a thought I have had many times about the planted tank. In today's world of instant gratification patience is in short supply. I'm guilty of it as well. I sometimes wish there were a way to fast forward and see the results of my latest experiment immediately. 

But the planted tank doesn't work that way. It moves at it's own pace and offers up new challenges on it's own schedule. For some I would guess that is part of the appeal. For others it only drives them insane (you know who you are).

For me maybe it's a little of both?:grin2:


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Greggz said:


> Phil this brings to mind a thought I have had many times about the planted tank. In today's world of instant gratification patience is in short supply. I'm guilty of it as well. I sometimes wish there were a way to fast forward and see the results of my latest experiment immediately.
> 
> But the planted tank doesn't work that way. It moves at it's own pace and offers up new challenges on it's own schedule. For some I would guess that is part of the appeal. For others it only drives them insane (you know who you are).
> 
> For me maybe it's a little of both?:grin2:


TL/DR first- Seeing all of the beautiful aquariums other people create, knowing I'm capable of doing the same quality work, and not being able to meet those self-expectations with this system makes me quite frustrated and that makes me impatient which increases my internal need to control the system even more, which feeds the cycle. Anger leads to fear, fear leads to hate, hate leads to algae, algae leads to anger...



I'm definitely both, depending on how the old noodle is doing that day. Ever since starting this tank my expectations for growth rate have been too high. When things didn't grow as quickly as I'd expected given the environment, I figured I was doing something wrong and changed things to try to meet my mental expectations. We all know how that worked out. It can be incredibly difficult to have patience when one is as frustrated as I've been with how the tank's done at certain times. I'd forgotten, or didn't listen to the voice in my head saying, planted tanks have their own time and trying to force them into a different time will only cause problems. 

Plant tanks are in a real way one of my therapies. Unfortunately, when I feel most out of control of my life my need to control something usually ends up being focused on a tank and it becomes a proxy for me and my life. Most of the time I get so caught up in the need for control that I forget that both life, and the planted tank, have their own timeline and I need to relax and let it happen. 

So yes, sometimes I'm philosophical and patient, and other times I'm controlling and impatient. 

Right now the pendulum is swinging toward the former. I'm seeing algae (especially TH) growing on lots of different things but I'm just going to let it go until it dies off. No more wholesale redos, no more cutting off any and all affected parts. Just sucking out where possible and letting the tank do its thing. Well, I do have 12 Amanos coming in sometime next week. We'll see if they live and how they help keep this stuff at bay.

To reinforce all that, the Cherry Shrimp I got a few weeks/month ago are all doing fine and breeding. Having mass murdered shrimp in the past this tank tells me that keeping my damn hands out of it and basically ignoring it/letting it be is the path to success. Who'd have thought?

Speaking of which, does anyone have any stainless steel mesh suitable for covering an overflow?

Cheers,
Phil


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

PEdwards said:


> Anger leads to fear, fear leads to hate, hate leads to algae, algae leads to anger...


Lol Master Plantoda :wink2::grin2: The parameters are strong with this one.

Bump: I got this one off of fleabay for $7. Works great. Will be keeping my CRS from getting sucked in. Oh wait you said for an overflow? Not sure how it would work for that?


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

That was very philosophical but all your words were very true as well. Something that happened to me as well, sometimes it's best to just let the tank do its thang.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Opare said:


> That was very philosophical but all your words were very true as well. Something that happened to me as well, sometimes it's best to just let the tank do its thang.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yup, and that's exactly what I'm going to try to do for a while. Feed the fish, add nutrients, top the sump off, suck out some algae here and there, maybe do a little trimming, and leave it alone aside from that. After I put the new plants and Amanos in next week, that is.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Greggz said:


> Phil this brings to mind a thought I have had many times about the planted tank. In today's world of instant gratification patience is in short supply.





PEdwards said:


> Seeing all of the beautiful aquariums other people create, knowing I'm capable of doing the same quality work, and not being able to meet those self-expectations with this system makes me quite frustrated and that makes me impatient which increases my internal need to control the system even more, which feeds the cycle. Anger leads to fear, fear leads to hate, hate leads to algae, algae leads to anger...





Opare said:


> That was very philosophical but all your words were very true as well. Something that happened to me as well, sometimes it's best to just let the tank do its thang.


Patience?
I have know idea where I get mine when it comes to my tanks.
For the tanks, I have an overabundance of patience but not for many other things.

Algae, might as well embrace it cause we all have it to some degree.
I just don't take pictures of the staghorn on lower leaves, the melting buce leaves I dipped too long in metricide,
or the 12" long culture of hair algae I am growing in a low tech tank.

I tossed a lot of plant mass moving to my latest tank trying to ensure I didn't pass it on to the new tank.
It didn't work I will need to still trim some of the old stems up.

My only recommendation is to only change one thing at a time.
If not you'll never know what fixed the issues.
Enjoy the experiment!:grin2:


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

I just got one of those diagnoses that nobody wants to get, so the tank's going to be on auto-pilot/life support for a while. I've still got the ability to keep it up, but not the energy or motivation to do much. We'll see how a few weeks/months of semi-neglect does.

Will try to take update photos every once in a while.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Damn dude, sorry to hear that. Hope everything works out


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Phil very sorry to hear that. I really don't know you, but feel like I do as your voice comes through in your posts. 

Please take care of yourself and godspeed. Hoping the best for you and your family.

Looking forward to hearing about you and the tank being in their full glory again soon.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

I also hope for a speedy recovery. Make sure and take it easy and get bettter buddy. 


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Sorry to hear this Phil, hope all goes well.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Thanks all. For now I think I'm going to let anything that wants to grow emersed, grow emersed. It'll be interesting to see how that works out. I'm pretty sure I'm going to have a whole lot of time to think, so I'll be doing a lot of analysis into the non-plant parts of the system to see if I can figure out why it's been having such chronic trouble. 

Until then, it's business as usual while the TH continues to grow and do its thing. I may just switch the light to the middle two so I can turn the CO2 down. I won't be able to carry a replacement canister for quite some time.

Grab your popcorn and enjoy the show, such as it will be.


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## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

Maybe you can transition to Anubius, Java Fern, and Crypts as you have time and energy. Some of my favorite aquascapes are just those and would be lower maintenance. 

At least stick around enough to provide advice. I need it


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Ben Belton said:


> Maybe you can transition to Anubius, Java Fern, and Crypts as you have time and energy. Some of my favorite aquascapes are just those and would be lower maintenance.
> 
> At least stick around enough to provide advice. I need it



HAHAHA, how can someone who's had the troubles I've had give credible advice? Sure, do what I do and you'll have an algae farm and unhealthy plants just like me! Riiiiiiiight. 

I do have Anubias and Crypts, but not enough to fill this tank. The Java Fern got sent to Rachel.  I'm kind of hoping to do an emersed "puddle" like some of the guys over at UKAPS. That should be pretty easy to care for, I hope.


*6.12 update*-

After a week in the hospital running nearly every test they could think of; PET and CT scans, MRI, and echocardiogram with about a liter of blood and biopsy taken and we still have no news. The pathology lab had to send my slides off to a lab in California for analysis, and hopefully, diagnosis. We've got a meeting with the oncologist tomorrow (6.13) and hope to have results and a treatment plan in place then. 

While I was away the Mrs. switched the fixture to the two middle lights only. No other changes except no ferts for a little over a week. I've been too tired to do water changes, so yesterday's was the first one it had in three weeks. Sucked out a bunch of TH, which was bad, but not as bad as I'd expected. Started the regular regimen but switched out CaNO3 for CaSO4 at water changes. We'll see how that goes. 

CO2 was up pretty high; all four of the Rasboras and a couple of the Ottos were up at the surface each day a couple hours after the CO2 kicked on. I've since turned it down a little and have switched back to the 4 outer bulbs. 

You know what the great thing about being tired all the time is? I'm too tired to care about the algae.  I hope it goes away, but it's not making me get my undies in a bundle trying to eradicate every little bit of it.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Phil good to get an update and hear from you.

I understand the tank not being a priority right now. But who knows, maybe you neglect it for awhile, and by accident it turns into a lush garden! Then you could spend years trying to figure out why? In this crazy planted tank world anything is possible. 

And once again wishing you all the best.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Thanks Gregg.


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## Omar EAZi (Aug 5, 2015)

PEdwards said:


>


The piece of metal that the lights are hanging off, is that DIY or did you order it from somewhere? or custom made? Looks pretty neat and simple.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Hello Omar,

The light frame is a separate custom-made piece madeto match the stand I got with the original 60 gallon tank. It's got legs that go all the way to the floor and is bolted to the stand in three places.




*6.20.17 Update*- Things are about the same in the tank. The TH is still in there, but isn't growing as quickly as before. Stems are reaching, and breaching, the surface, and the fish are alive. It may get another decent water change and algae suck in the next few days, we'll see how I'm feeling. Using CaNO3 doesn't seem to have had any negative effects so the plan is to keep using it. Getting some ideas for a new scape once all of this is said and done close to the end of the year. 

Saw a 150 at the pet store the other day and thought it might be a good candidate for the stand. Then I remembered I'm on a 2nd floor apartment. LOL


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I think the setup looks pretty awesome. It doesn't look like youve got too much hardscape. I think some large driftwood would give something to work around and create a focal point. 
As to the diagnosis I am sorry to hear you are going through that. My mother is going through the same things. She was diagnosed with carcinoma of unknown origin nearly 25 years ago and was given 6 weeks to live. Obviously she beat it. We learned last month that she has 3 tumors on her lung one the size of a tangerine, 2 brain tumors, and another mass around her carotid artery restricting blood flow. Information has been slow as have treatment suggestions. I have decided to specialize in Oncology. The only advice I can give is to not let the diagnosis get you down. Medicine is no different than any other science. It is all best guess. Good luck


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Thanks Dude, that's appreciated. I'm very sorry to hear about your mom. Situations like hers are what I'm most afraid of, and there's almost nothing we can do about it. 

As for the tank, I do have a big piece of wood that I've been considering using, but it will require a full tank overhaul to get it in and that's not something I'm particularly keen on doing at the moment. Who knows what'll happen in a couple months though?


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

7.15.17 Update-

All the stems have been pulled. Only the Anubias and H. pinn wood, the various Crypts, E. pusilla, and S. repens nubbins have been left to survive or not for the next few months. No CO2, no ferts, barely any fish food. The first round of chemo kicked my ass pretty hard and I have no energy or motivation to do anything, aquarium related or not. For now it's going to be survival of the fittest for what's left. I did put the rest of the spiderwood back in there to soak for future use.  As Erik Draven once said "It can't rain all the time.". The last part of my treatment is going to be fairly invasive chest surgery, probably sometime in November, so I don't expect anything significant to happen until very late in the year or early next year, but the first step has been taken and ideas are percolating. I'm not sure if I'll continue using the Aquasolum or try to get some 2-3mm silica. I may try black blasting sand, but I'm not sure it will fit the aesthetic. There's no rush, I won't be able to lift a 50 lb bag of sand, let alone carry it up the stairs to my apt for a loooooooong time.

Perhaps I'll go totally barebottom and see what happens there. LOL


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Yeah just cruise low tech for a while where you can still enjoy it, and plan a new scape for when you finish kicking the C's ass. 

Im thinking about you man, and I know the entire hobby is too. Please let me know if there's anything I can do!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Hang in there Phil - definitely all pulling for you! 
Bare bottom with lead weights, lol, sounds like one of the LFS around here. Definitely keep the ideas peculating


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I love your attitude. You do what you can do until you can do more. I wish I had a large portion of anubias or Java fern so I could send you some to toss in there. In fact I should have my C02 setup next week so plant mass should be heading the right direction here shortly and I'll throw some anubias nana in there to grow some out for you! As much as I love the high tech setups I've never had much luck with anything other than dwarf sag, and anubias. But anubias sure is pretty!! Keep fighting the fight. Every time cancer loses we all win.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Phil really good to hear from you, although I wish the circumstances were better. I've been thinking about you, and like others have said I'm sure you are in the thoughts of many here.

Stay strong, fight the good fight, and I'm looking forward to hearing when you get this thing beat!


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## sdwindansea (Oct 28, 2016)

Good luck with everything and great movie reference as well. I really hope you are referring to the tank when you say you may go "barebottom".


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## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

PEdwards said:


> I won't be able to lift a 50 lb bag of sand, let alone carry it up the stairs to my apt for a loooooooong time.


I come to Charlotte on occasion. Let me know when you want that bag carried upstairs. :grin2:


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Ben Belton said:


> I come to Charlotte on occasion. Let me know when you want that bag carried upstairs. :grin2:


That is a very kind gesture Ben, and shows a lot of character. If I were closer by, I would offer the same. Maybe some locals can help out and provide some help and comfort to our friend.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Thank you for all the kindness everyone, it's really appreciated. This just goes to prove how awesome aquarium people are. Not a tank update, but one worth mentioning nonetheless- I started losing my hair yesterday, 7.18. I'll see if I can remember to post a before and after pic. 


Thanks for the offer Ben, we'll see if I can find a source first. There's nooooo rush, which is kinda nice.  Let me know when you come to town next, hopefully we can meet up for dinner or something.


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## rhiro (Sep 21, 2012)

Learned about your condition while watching a youtube video by your friend Rachel O'Leary. While I have never interacted with you on TPT I have read many of your posts and know how knowledgeable and well liked you are and appreciate all your contributions to this community. Not sure if I am allowed to post this type of info so I won't post the link but Rachel mentioned there is a gofundme set up for Phil. You have my support and will be in my prayers.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Thank you rhiro, your well wishes are appreciated.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Bit by bit I'm getting a little more energy so the tank's getting a bit less random care. Since it's basically just the Anubias and Crypts in there with two of the bulbs running I started a 3-5 bubble/sec CO2 injection and weekly fert regimen. After a power outage during the last chemo cycle shut the digital timer the lights were on the H. pinn is pretty much all dead except for a few bits here and there. If it lives, it lives. If it dies, it dies as I'm going in for Round 3 next week. The wood's started to sink too and the BBA on the submerged stuff isn't doing much of anything. That's about it for now.

Cheers,
Phil


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Glad to hear your energy level is climbing!


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

8.24.17-

I suppose with Photobucket phucking with our photos it's time to close this journal. Have no fear, a new one will be started when the time comes. 

Right now the tank is a mess of C. wendtii, a few C. cordata, sprigs of H. pinn, a lonely L. meeboldi, random sprigs of Java Moss growing up out of wood I'd thought was cleansed in one of the purges, and some S. repens and mats of Monte Carlo a friend sent down when breaking down her tank for a move. Things are growing slowly, or at least not dying, and that's just fine with me. The only issue is the massive number of snails now living in there. I'm going to have to do something about that eventually, but not right now.

This has certainly been one hell of a ride. I *think* I've learned a lot about the system and how to manage it in the future. As always, we'll see. Thank you for following through all the ups and downs and in-betweens. Y'all have been great and I look forward to continuing to follow your journals and to see you in my next one.

The End,
Phil


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Heya all,

It's 9.25 and Linn asked me to keep up with some form of updating via PM so here goes. 

1. Finished my (hopefully) last round of chemo on the 8th and came home on the 10th. So far the blood markers have shown significant progress and good response to the chemo. Over the past couple of weeks I've been able to eat more and have been getting a little bit stronger each day. Not sure how I managed it, but I ended up gaining about 20 lbs through the whole process. Everyone expected me to lose weight so I guess this is a good thing. Now I need to find a gym to dump some of this fat and rebuild muscle that was lost. 

2. The tank's doing much better than expected, all things considered. It was running with two of the bulbs on an irregular schedule, averaging about 8 hrs/day when I was home and Lord only knows what when I was in the hospital. We had a power outage which screwed up the digital timer so we've been on manual mode for a while. Sometime during the last go-round the CO2 died and BBA grew all over the wood. I'm not too worried about that as it's just on the wood and stuff that can (and will be) treated/cleaned when it comes time to rescape. 

3. "Benign Neglect" has been good for the tank on the whole. Everything's grown and most of the fast(er) growers got trimmed yesterday. A friend forced a bunch of MC and S. repens with a couple stunted sprigs of L. aromatica on me about a month and a half ago so about half the tank is full of those now. The Limnophila is still small, but should be hitting critical mass soon. 

4. Changed over to 4x bulbs for approx 12 hr/s day about a week ago and things are responding well. Tank's still getting CO2 and ferts and water change frequency is increasing to more than every month or every other month. 

Cheers,
Phil


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