# what is the safe ppm range of nitrates for crs/cbs?



## lilflippy (Oct 27, 2007)

Hi I was wondering what the safe ppm range for crs/cbs? Please reply back thanks.


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## gordonrichards (Jun 20, 2009)

In my opinion, low to no nitrate readings.

If you have fish, keep your tank lightly stocked.

Excess ammonia/nitrates=bad from what I read.

-Gordon


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

zero is ideal


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## Moe (Jan 22, 2004)

I never test, but it needs to be almost none.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Does not answer the question nor is useful, give them a range, say 5-10ppm as KNO3 dosed, not from waste or sediment leaching. Never found any issues with mine in this range, it went higher as well.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

he asked for ideal... Zero is ideal.


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## barbarossa4122 (Jan 16, 2010)

I keep 30ppm in my rcs tank and the colony keeps growing and growing.


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## zxc (Nov 10, 2009)

zero


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## Moe (Jan 22, 2004)

RSC are tough as nails, CRS not so much. Just keep the nitrates low.


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## barbarossa4122 (Jan 16, 2010)

Oh, I see.


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## lilflippy (Oct 27, 2007)

gordonrichards said:


> In my opinion, low to no nitrate readings.
> 
> If you have fish, keep your tank lightly stocked.
> 
> ...


Ok heres my water parameters.

Nitrate 10

Nitrite 0

Ammonia 0

gH 7

pH 6.5-6.8

temperature 71F-73F

So to lower nitrate i could do water changes?

Also i plan in lowering my gH to 4 by using RO water.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

IMHO 10 ppm nitrate is fine for CRS. I had some survive and breed in a tank with fish where the nitrate level was 80 ppm+. The shrimplet survival was pretty low though, although I suspect the fish had something to do with it.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

lilflippy said:


> Ok heres my water parameters.
> 
> Nitrate 10
> 
> ...


A really easy way to totally wipe out nitrates is by dosing amquel or adding purigen to the filter.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

mordalphus said:


> he asked for ideal... Zero is ideal.


So does this apply to planted tanks?
It's not "ideal" for planted tanks period.

There's some trade off and the issue becomes one of risk, not what is ideal since ideally, we would not keep them at all, because aquarist are the no# killers of livestock in aquariums.

Not NO3's.

Can you even measure zero ppm down to say 0.01ppm?
That's not zero, but a test kit will read as such.

But is there any real risk associated with say 10ppm of NO3?
Got any evidence for it? If not, you cannot suggest or say less is better, because there is no significant difference and no risk between the two ppm's.

So is it really better?

You have not demonstrated it nor have we learned anything about the culture of the shrimp or their environment ranges.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

For all of you folks claiming zero is better, what reference controls have you used, if any and what test methods have you used and frequency to measure NO3's?

Or is it just speculation, wishful thinking, "less must be better"?????????????
I gotta ask, because it sounds like lots of guessing and no real evidence.

If it is as you claim, "better", please quantify this somehow, someway in terms of growth rates, brood production, some measurable quantity. :icon_roll
If there is no difference in these and no evidence there is any difference in risk, then why say it is better?

This type of thinking/advice offers little informative knowledge or gain.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

I'm sorry, but where in his questions did he say anything about plants?

As far as maintaining a tank with zero nitrates, it's close to impossible, we all know that. I think most people here are versed in the nitrogen cycle and that if you have something living in a fish tank, there's going to be some nitrates eventually.

Everyone realizes you can't grow plants very well without nitrates, but once again... I see no mention of plants in this thread.

If you want some scientific reason why shrimp wouldn't like to swim around in the by products of their waste, by all means, do your doctoral thesis on this. But in the context of this thread:

If you're a newbie at CRS, try to keep your nitrates close to ZERO. Chances are the tanks they were bred in were well maintained and also had nitrates close to zero.

If you're wanting to do a high tech tank, with a bunch of plants, keep your nitrates in check. I've had red cherries survive in 40ppm of nitrates, but not for a sustained period of time, and I'd never risk doing that with CRS.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

I'm sorry, but if a person asks about a tank on the planted tank forum, we just assume there is plants in the tank. Why are you assuming there is none? How about asking the original poster questions instead of assuming and giving potentially bad advice? I have my cherries breeding like this in a tank I keep at HIGH levels of nitrates:










And not taking sides here, but we've all seen some of the EI tanks Tom has and his shrimp are healthy and breeding in higher nitrate levels.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

This is an interesting question and clearly there is no relevant empirical data to guide hobbyists. I do think the nitrate issue is a little overblown with crs, but why risk killing things that run $5+ a pop for the sake of science? I had an NO3 reading over 50 ppm when I introduced my first batch of crs and none died. I also had a nitrite reading of 0.25 ppm. My cardinals were living in 30 ppm for a couple weeks and again, there were no fatalities. But now the tanks are at zero, and I'd much prefer zero NO3 to 20+, because as I mentioned in an earlier post, it's quite easy to eliminate nitrates with certain products.

Most crs tanks are primarily filled with mosses, so I don't think it's that important to maintain some nitrate reading for the sake of the plants.


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## janftica (Jan 11, 2010)

All of my shrimp tanks have floating plants, mosses in them and I have no to very little nitrate/nitrites in my tanks. I also have duckweed in them and frogbit, dwarf lettuce and from what I have been told both of those suck up nitrate/nitrites. I also use Amquel + in my water topups. I don't get many die offs, I have to say, and my shrimp are breeding good. Maybe just keep a check on the levels is all you have to do and when they are up, then do a water change, that's all I do.


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## flowmsp (Feb 6, 2010)

My question is, in the wild what are the nitrate readings there?


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

flowmsp said:


> My question is, in the wild what are the nitrate readings there?


That's somewhat irrelevant because current crs are so far removed from their wild form. I'm guessing the streams they originate from have pretty darn low nitrates though.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Almost all forest stream sites (97%) had nitrate concentrations below 1 part per million (ppm), more than three-fourths had concentrations of less than 0.5 ppm, and more than half had concentrations of less than 0.1 ppm.

Ref: Nitrate in Streams


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## flowmsp (Feb 6, 2010)

Thanks for the info!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

snausage said:


> That's somewhat irrelevant because current crs are so far removed from their wild form. I'm guessing the streams they originate from have pretty darn low nitrates though.


Well, in most systems there are large pulses, most research evidence from these systems are taken at one time in one day in one season part of the year.

Now if you monitored and measured all year long, you'd get a wide wide range of environmental parameters. Very few systems are stable all the time(I can think of a few though).

These are inbred and not natural shrimp as you wisely state, they are domesticated, like the Dog, there are no large packs of Pomerainians, we pushed evolution to developed these traits. Same with the Shrimp, discus coloration etc.

So there is no "natural" place.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

mordalphus said:


> Almost all forest stream sites (97%) had nitrate concentrations below 1 part per million (ppm), more than three-fourths had concentrations of less than 0.5 ppm, and more than half had concentrations of less than 0.1 ppm.
> 
> Ref: Nitrate in Streams


This does not state that these streams have been monitored all the time to get these measures, in other words, all streams have spring run off, where the N might be much higher, or during fall when more material is loaded due to plant decay or other seasonal changes, this radically influences nutrient loading, O2 and other environmentals, the streams are NOT static systems, even the averages are misleading, also, just because they have good low NO3, does not imply that is critical to survival, again, assumptions, not evidence. It is also not where these shrimp come from, this is for the USA. 

It is like showing wolf research to raise Yorkshire terriers:hihi:



Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

janftica said:


> All of my shrimp tanks have floating plants, mosses in them and I have no to very little nitrate/nitrites in my tanks. I also have duckweed in them and frogbit, dwarf lettuce and from what I have been told both of those suck up nitrate/nitrites. I also use Amquel + in my water topups. I don't get many die offs, I have to say, and my shrimp are breeding good. Maybe just keep a check on the levels is all you have to do and when they are up, then do a water change, that's all I do.


This seems more pragmatic given the unknowns and less prone to myth making.
also, duckweed will grow much slower and turn a yellowish green when N is low.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

snausage said:


> This is an interesting question and clearly there is no relevant empirical data to guide hobbyists. I do think the nitrate issue is a little overblown with crs, but why risk killing things that run $5+ a pop for the sake of science? I had an NO3 reading over 50 ppm when I introduced my first batch of crs and none died. I also had a nitrite reading of 0.25 ppm. My cardinals were living in 30 ppm for a couple weeks and again, there were no fatalities. But now the tanks are at zero, and I'd much prefer zero NO3 to 20+, because as I mentioned in an earlier post, it's quite easy to eliminate nitrates with certain products.
> 
> Most crs tanks are primarily filled with mosses, so I don't think it's that important to maintain some nitrate reading for the sake of the plants.


Naw, not for moss, they handle a wide range of N, and some NH4 uptake is fine as well, which is a good reason to have plants vs not.

NO3 comparatively is far less toxic in every study I've ever read on inverts.
Adding to the utility of plants with CRS or any shrimps, the food that lives on the plant's leaves is far more diverse and offers more structure and living space for both shrimp and the microscopic food they are picking at and ingesting.

Healthy plant = healthy shrimp.

I do not think the culls I have are really that much of a financial issue, shrimp nreed quite weel and we select the higher grades for ourselves, and perhaps sell the lower grades off. I test a few and can also test the low grade RCS as a progressive toxicity range. If nothing occurs with the RCS, then with the low grade CRS, then I test the higher grades. 

This is a safety buffer.

Thus they make a good test subject, as well as simple things.......like our mistakes that all hobbyist do at some point like high NO3.

Did the sky fall?
You saw the evidence for yourself.

They where fine.

*So where's the evidence?*

I'm not suggesting keeping them at anything more than what is needed for plants. No need to lard it on, but no need to promote the fear of NO3 either.

There is a middle ground.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

> There is a middle ground.


lol, apparently not

I found a scientific article about nitrate toxicity in invertebrates, saying that the smaller the invertebrate, the more sensitive they are. It also says that the negative effects are long term. So I'm assuming this doesn't apply either? Because it wasn't a study done in the mountains of China? 

The article is called: "Nitrate toxicity to aquatic animals: a review with new data for freshwater invertebrates ", by Julio A. Camargo, Alvaro Alonso and Annabella Salamanca, Ecology Department at the University of Alcala, Spain

But maybe it doesn't apply because it's a study done in Spain, and we're keeping our Chinese shrimps in American water with American nitrates? I dunno, I'm no scientist!


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

plantbrain said:


> I do not think the culls I have are really that much of a financial issue, shrimp nreed quite weel and we select the higher grades for ourselves, and perhaps sell the lower grades off. I test a few and can also test the low grade RCS as a progressive toxicity range. If nothing occurs with the RCS, then with the low grade CRS, then I test the higher grades.
> 
> This is a safety buffer.
> 
> ...


Lol, the general spirit of my post was meant to be directed towards readers who have never kept CRS before. I'm guessing you have more net worth in your tanks than a lot of people have in their 401ks.

I'm glad you raised the issue of seasonal variations of water parameters within natural habitats. There's really a lot of conflicting data from the sulawesi lake system in particular, where all sorts of neat new aqua critters and plants are coming from, and I think we would all be well served if we better understood the fluctuations in both the sulawesi system and others where a lot of popular flora and fauna originate (eg amazonian tributaries).


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

lilflippy said:


> Hi I was wondering what the safe ppm range for crs/cbs? Please reply back thanks.





mordalphus said:


> he asked for ideal... Zero is ideal.


Just for clarification, the question appears to be concerning the safe range.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Edit: Reopened.

[strike]Okay, folks. Some individuals don't want to follow rules and listen to advice given. So, this thread is getting closed down while I discuss it with the other moderators. Sorry to the OP and I hope this will get cleared up shortly.[/strike]

I am opening this back up with the understanding that we will agree to stay on topic and attack the argument, not the person.


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## FreedPenguin (Aug 2, 2011)

I am glad this thread was reopened because my crystal reds are dropping like flies. I am left with one sole survivor crs.
Please help! 

Tank spec:
10 gal standard
72-74 deg
Ph 6.4
0 ammonia
0 nitrites
Less than 2.5ppm nitrates. It's hard to tell. Colors pretty yellow nowhere near the orange which is 5ppm on the API test kit
kh 0
Gh 4
180-200ppm Tds meter reading

These test results are from today.

I am using mr aquasoil substrate on top of a very little bit of gravel. 
I have java moss, java fern, some other low light plants.
Sponge filter and hob filter fully cycled 

I have some fire reds in there and they are thriving and colored up super nice. Both these shrimp are from the same breeder and arrived together. All shrimp is juvie size.

All shrimp were properly drip acclimated.
Can this low level nitrates kill?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

mordalphus said:


> he asked for ideal... Zero is ideal.


For shrimp or for the plants + shrimp? 
If it's ideal, then what might we see......... if say it's higher than zero?
Deaths? Less life span? less brood production? In otherwords, what do we REALLY get, not just conjecture.......out of going to extremes?

In otherwords, if the Shrimp are fine, then "ideal" might be higher than zero and be FAR easier to manage for the hobbyists.

"Ideal" does NOT imply "less/least amount is best.

You nor any of the folks claiming less is best have any support data or facts, all you have are guesses and fear based speculation.

I dose and breed them and they are like cockeroaches. 

CO2 is far more detrimental to health and risk to shrimps. There is ample evidence to this and many folks have noted the differences, you still get breeding with CO2, you just get a lot more without using CO2 gas(3-10X more).


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

FreedPenguin said:


> I am glad this thread was reopened because my crystal reds are dropping like flies. I am left with one sole survivor crs.
> Please help!
> 
> Tank spec:
> ...


No.

I have dosed 15 ppm 2-3x a week in planted tanks for years and lost only 1 CRS high grade(SS) and that was due to mashing it when I was moving some rocks. 

There are 101 ways to kill fish/shrimps, correlation of a single parameter does not tell you much. Nor implies any cause. CO2 kills fish/shrimp in hobbyists tanks almost weekly on this board.....but few seem to worry or fret much over using that. 

Temp and TDS seem fine........I'd suggest adding some floating water sprite or something that grows fast, easy etc. This will mop up any filter issues you might have. New livestock is at the greatest risk often times and perhaps a little bit of KH might be helpful. You need not much though.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

snausage said:


> I'm glad you raised the issue of seasonal variations of water parameters within natural habitats. There's really a lot of conflicting data from the sulawesi lake system in particular, where all sorts of neat new aqua critters and plants are coming from, and I think we would all be well served if we better understood the fluctuations in both the sulawesi system and others where a lot of popular flora and fauna originate (eg amazonian tributaries).



This is interesting and I'd like to know more about that and the habitats.

Still, nature/natural systems does not imply what is best for the aquaculture. Crops, and livestock kept on farms are not maximized using nature as the model.....we control many things to reduce mortality, sickness, increase viability, add extra food/fertilizers/water, reduce pest, predation etc.......these are NOT natural things. 

Same deal with aquatic weeds, fish, cows, chickens, corn, tomato etc.

Not a bad place to start and we learn a lot by looking at natural systems.......I'd prefer a natural system to a farm myself given a choice.
Much more interesting.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> This is interesting and I'd like to know more about that and the habitats.
> 
> Still, nature/natural systems does not imply what is best for the aquaculture. Crops, and livestock kept on farms are not maximized using nature as the model.....we control many things to reduce mortality, sickness, increase viability, add extra food/fertilizers/water, reduce pest, predation etc.......these are NOT natural things.
> 
> ...



Yup. Many creatures that have natural predators have big broods for the purpose of having so many eaten, that a few survive and continue on the genes. We control that and try to remove predators, parasites, etc. Also, in a small ecosystem like a tank, params shift all the time. 1 dying plant can set off an ammonia spike. Not so in nature. 

I always think of bettas. Everyone always says, they do fine in a bowl or glass or vase, they live in areas with only a few inches of water. What they fail to say is that it may be 3 inches of water, but its also a body of water hundreds of acres by hundreds of acres. They are air breathers and don't need deep water, but comparing a vase 3" deep to 10,000 square acres 3" deep isn't the same thing. They are such pretty fish and deserve better than that. My gf's in a 2.5gal and I'm going to give her one of my 5.5gal's soon just to give it some more room because i feel bad for it being in there.


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## FreedPenguin (Aug 2, 2011)

Thanks Tom, you confirmed what I was thinking. I will look for some frog bit or salvinia. I don't have any co2 setup. I do for my planted tank and I am very cautious with the gas, I have it on a timeer with the lights. And testing my ph and kh, I see that level of co2 is ideal in that tank.
Again Thanks



plantbrain said:


> No.
> 
> I have dosed 15 ppm 2-3x a week in planted tanks for years and lost only 1 CRS high grade(SS) and that was due to mashing it when I was moving some rocks.
> 
> ...


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I really think floating plants are superb for fish breeding and shrimp keeping............they buffer CO2 issues if that is used, and they reduce the light down, mop up NH4 waste and are tougher than the submersed species. 
Management is easier.

But........it may not be the look you are after. 
Or it might be, here's my own example:










No CO2, no water changes etc......

Very easy to keep, ADA like aesthetic.........excellent tank to bred. I still dose this tank 1-2x a week, about 1/3 EI dosing.

I think folks need to stop accepting things and dogma and start asking better questions. Just because it feels right does not mean it is.

This is never suppose to be a quest to put down anyone personally, it's a honest quest for what we can learn and know. Ignorance and blind acceptance is not a part of that path and we all are gullible at times or at some point. *We all start off on this path ignorant.* Midway we think we know a thing or two, and after many years, we realize we don't know Jack.

Better to test and see and experiment once you get your feet wet more. Newbies have a tough time and dying shrimp are not the most fun thing in the world. But...plenty of newbies also kill fish and plants every week too on the boards..........

Poor things..........


.


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## FreedPenguin (Aug 2, 2011)

That is great looking tank you got there Tom! 
I am waiting for a friend of mine to get back to the states. He'll give me frog bit as his tank is literally covered in frog bit each time he leaves and comes back lol
I was shocked when all of these shrimp died, so far I've lost very few fish, both were dwarf gouramis I got from the fish store died quickly.


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