# 17 gallon mr aqua lighting low tech



## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Any thoughts?

Thanks guys.

iso


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Check into it because it may only cover certain models of it but the Satalite is dimmable.
Also if you like T5 Aquatraders has a one bulb T5 fixture.


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

Sat+ works very, very well with the 60P-style tanks. A single one is all you'll need for low light levels, and if you want to raise it an inch or two, or dim it, you can control the light nicely. Good looking light, too, and the company has excellent CS.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Thanks guys.

Is this the one?
Amazon.com : Current USA Satellite Freshwater LED Plus Light for Aquarium, 48 to 60-Inch : Pet Supplies

My questions:
I am assuming this light is HIGH LIGHT BUT with the dimming feature allows me to use it in my low tech set up.
So, WITH the dimming feature, will this allow me the flexibility to go from low tech low light TO high tech high light down the road? (with tank dimensions of 23.6" x 11.8" x 14.2") 

If you cant kill 2 birds with one stone (i.e. a light that can adapt from low tech to high tech tank) I would rather just spend the money on a quality light for this low tech set up I am planning than go for a dimming one.

Will the 24" model fit on top of the glass (using the built in legs) of a 23.8" tank width?

Thanks,
iso


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

isonychia said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> Is this the one?
> Amazon.com : Current USA Satellite Freshwater LED Plus Light for Aquarium, 48 to 60-Inch : Pet Supplies
> ...


Right light, wrong size, you want the 24-36" size, which fits perfectly across the top of a ~24" tank like the one we have, with the legs fully contracted so you have a solid bar of light across the top. That's what I use on my tank, same tank as you.

No, NOT high light. PAR at 12" (substrate depth, assuming you have a couple of inches of dirt/gravel) is 36, which put it right on the border of low light and medium light. You can either dim the light levels slightly, or raise it an inch or two, to lower the light levels, if needed. When you're ready for higher light and co2, add a second light and you can get 60 PAR, which is on the high end of medium light.

http://current-usa.com/aquarium-led-lights/satellite-led-fixtures/satellite-freshwater-led-plus/


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

"If you cant kill 2 birds with one stone (i.e. a light that can adapt from low tech to high tech tank) I would rather just spend the money on a quality light for this low tech set up I am planning than go for a dimming one."
Don't understand this. If it's not dimmable it can't fit two light levels.
A BML light can fit two light levels. It is dimmable AND high when set at full 100%.

Edit:Oops, my bad...I didn't explain enough of my thought. Point being why imply that one light fixture that you can use for both is not available when not only it is available but at more PAR on the top end AND cheaper than buying two of the Satallite Freashwater+ fixtures ?
On a tank 18" wide two fixtures would be preferred by lots of people but on one only 12" it only needs one fixture. The BML cost $200 for the fixture and the dimmer.
The Satallite Freahwater+ cost $120 for one of them and each only has 36 PAR @ 12"..below is a link to the PAR chart for the BML "Dutch" fixture.
http://www.buildmyled.com/about-par


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

The Sat+ is dimmable. Was that unclear?


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Kman, it was clear, I guess I wasn't sure if a dimming feature was the way to go.

Raymond, thanks for the response. You answered my problem even though I didn't explain it well.

The SAT+ is $82.06 (no tax/ship)and dimmable, but at 100% it is still low light. So as it was pointed out I would need 2 ($164.12) if I ever decided to switch over to high tech.

So Raymond's suggestion is to go with a BML setup.

Raymond I assume you are suggesting this:

Dutch Planted 6300K
Number of Fixtures: 1 
Fixture Length: 24" 
Beam Angle : 90 Degree 
Fixture Color: Silver 
$179.00 
(It gives a light intensity range all the way up to ultra high light with 1 fixture at 12" depth.)

Manual Dimming Switch
$14.95
TOTAL: $193

So I guess I can just spend $82 and have a light that is perfect for my low tech 17gal BUT does not offer a transition to high tech if desired without the addition of a second fixture.

OR I can spend $200 now and have the ability to go high tech down the road without making another purchase.

So I guess I need to decide if the extra $115 is worth it and if I think i will ever try high tech down the road ON THIS CURRENT TANK DIMENSION.

Thanks guys,
iso


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

OR, you can spend ~$180 now on either the new Sat+ PRO or the Ecoxotic E-Series, both of which are fully dimmable, and both of which give one single fixture capable of putting out far more light than you need (100 PAR).

I recommended the Sat+ (non-Pro) because you initially specifically were looking into low light low tech, and the Sat+ is considerably cheaper if that's all you need, and you can still add a second light down the road for higher tech options. (for less total money than one of the more powerful lights) Just trying to help you avoid sticker shock.  But if you're sure you want to go high tech down the road, the other two lights are excellent options.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Kman, thanks.

You gave me 2 other options.

Your right. The trick is figuring out if I plan to go high tech down the road.

Not sure what to do... I think I'm leaning towards spending the extra money and having the option down the road as opposed to having to buy another light.


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

for me its was never a tough call whether or not to go high tech or low tech. I am 32, I work full time and love to travel and spend lots of time outdoors. I absolutely love my tank but I don't want to HAVE to spend a ton of time on it if I don't want too.

If you need insanely fast plant growth and want to be trimming 1-2 times a week and have lots of high demanding plants you need to go high tech. 

If you are like me and don't want to spend all your time trimming and replanting and are okay with the 100's of low light plant options then go low tech. Low tech is not only way less maint. but cost is so much less. Low tech also allows for more beginner mistake with less consequence. 

To give you an example; i haven't trimmed any plants in my tank in months. I don't really have any stem plants any more as I prefer rosette style plants like crypts and swords. Or bulbs like aponogetons. They grow much in a way that you don't have to trim them back constantly. Only trimming they require is that of dead leaves.

I think the sat + is a fine option and the planted plus would be a second choice but will likely need to be raised until the tank is established and grown in.

In terms of avoiding algae and having success, that will heavily rely on what plants you pick, stock level, ferts you dose (suggest a modified EI dose with roots tabs), how long you leave lights on, how clean you keep your tank (water changes, cleaning up dead plant matter, not over feeding), how many plants you can afford to start off with.

I suggest running only 6 hours a day to start, keep some floating plants at the beginning too. Get in the habit of doing 50% wc weekly right from the start with a good dosing sched. Have a variety of plants that grow at different rates. A few fast growing stems at the beginning in helpful. Stuff the tank with as many plants as possible! Alot of newbies make the mistake with starting off with too few plants and with too much light. this will spell disaster. Not to mention most new fish keepers over feed and don't do enough water changes. Algae will soon takeover very quickly.

I hope some of this helps you and if you have any questions you can ask me via pm or here.

here is my 75g low tech which I have had running for almost 11 months. The picture is a little dated, I have made some changes since but you get the idea. The only stem plants I have now are hygrophila willow and hygro compact. 
Here is my plant list if your interested.

-	Amazon Sword
-	Anubius Barteri
-	Anubias Nana
-	Anubius Petite
-	Anubias Unknown
-	Bolbitis Heudelotii
-	Crinum Natans
-	Cryptocoryne Crispatula Balansae
-	Cryptocoryne Green Gecko
-	Cryptocoryne Nurii
-	Cryptocoryne Parva
-	Cryptocoryne Pontederiifolia
-	Cryptocoryne Spiralis
-	Cryptocoryne Wendtti (Red, Green, Brown)
-	Cryptocoryne X Willisi
-	Hygrophila Corymbosa Compacta
-	Hygrophila Angustifolia
-	Java Fern
-	Lace Fern
-	Oriental Sword
-	Red Melon Sword
-	Red Tiger Lotus
-	Vallisneria Natans Tiger


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

philipraposo1982 said:


> If you need insanely fast plant growth and want to be trimming 1-2 times a week and have lots of high demanding plants you need to go high tech.


This is not necessarily true. I don't think most people with high tech tanks trim twice per week. Many don't even trim once per week.

I trim every 2-3 weeks, personally, depending on how bushy I want things to get. I do 50% water changes every week. (Ok, I _mean_ to do it weekly, usually I do it anywhere from weekly to every 2 weeks, but usually somewhere between 1-1.5 weeks.) I dose EI ferts (plus root tabs are added approx every 6 months) and have pressurized co2. The lights and co2 are on a timer, so I never touch them. One paintball tank of co2 lasts me 6-9 months, then $4 to refill and back in business. I'm in the process of automating my ferts with an auto-doser (not that it's a huge hassle), so the only thing I'll be doing is daily feeding, then the water changes and trimming as needed.

High tech is definitely more work than low tech, but it's not as bad as you make it out to be.

Here's my tank (same tank as the OP) in bad need of a trim (after 3 weeks without one):










Other than that, however, I agree with your post.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Phil, thank you.

Everything you wrote is exactly what happened to me the first time.

• Wrong light, too much light. I bought an overpriced Fluval LED plant light (didn't do my normal hours of research like other situations in life and bought on the fly) Goes to show researching is always best.

• Not enough plants. This is difficult becuase you first have to research the hell out of plants for a low tech tank. Then you have to choose which you like and then imagine how they will go together to create the scape you are going for.
THEN you have to try and find them. Most LFS plants are ripe with algae and in very poor shape or they don't have the ones I want. You also have to weed out the differing opinions on what will work in low tech and what will not. THEN I'm sure there are combinations of low tech plants that may not be the best match due to varying reasons.

• Fighting algae that eventually took over or caused me to always have to remove plants and try and remove it manually. Removing it then caused damage to the plants and they were eventually removed causing less plants and thus more algae.

• THE FINAL blow was SNAILS!!!. They effectively caused me to have to dismantle my 55 gallon as they were everywhere, glass, gravel, filters etc. I tried feeding my fish ever 2nd day, trapping etc etc but there was just too much decaying matter in my gravel for them to feed on. Nothing I did would cut down on their numbers.

SO I am starting fresh with what I hope is a more manageable 17gallon tank. Easier for water changes and less money spent trying to stock it with plants and extra substrate etc.

I do have 1 question right now.

Here's my plan. Setup the tank, add my substrate, add water and use a frozen shrimp to start my cycle. (have to start over because of the snails!!!) Then add my plants. I don't have all my plants yet, but at least I can start the cycle.

I think the suggested way to do it is add the substrate, place the plants, driftwood rocks etc as I want them and then fill the tank. Then add the shrimp and wait for the cycle to complete before adding my fish.

The problem I have with that "order" is:
1. I have not ordered all my plants yet. I only have some coming.
2. Don't I have to quarantine or treat my plants first before adding them to my tank? I have treated my driftwood and java moss with a 4 day soak in Alum. So far I don't see any snails in the Q tank. I cant deal with another Ramshorn snail problem. But how can I possibly be sure there are no snails in my plants. Even just 1 will cause an outbreak. I don't have the confidence that I can stop them from a population explosion like before.
3. Shouldn't I use the time waiting for plants and quarantining to start my cycle?

Thanks for any help,
iso


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

I personally don't believe that fish in cycles are the devil like most of brainwashed to believe in the hobby. There is truth that fish in cycles can be dangerous to fish health and can cause death. BUT there is such a thing as a fish in cycle that is 100% safe.

I cycled my 75g with 13 tiny cardinal tetras! fish that are said to be super sensitive and die off regularly. My cycle lasted 10 days before completion, I will speak more on this after. Right as my cycle was done I added the remaining stock the store had of the same cardinals which ended up putting me at 25 cardinals. 11 months later I have 24 cardinals and I believe the one random death was due to just a weak fish. no sign of disease. 

I say this because if I can do it (my first ever fish tank) than anyone can.

As for specifics on how I got my tank to cycle in 10 days. I used a product from ATM called Colony. Its similar to products like tetra safe start. Basically the product is LIVE nitrifying bacteria. You feed it with a few fish that produces a small amount of waste and it basically like a jump start to the cycle. ammonia is gone within the first 5-6 days and fully cycled in by day 10; at least for me. 

IMPORTANT NOTES: with these types of products you dealing with live bacteria and therefore they have requirements that need to be met. I spoke to an individual from ATM who worked with me on a daily basis to help me cycle my tank so the info I am providing comes directly from the manufacturer. imo this is most trusted.

Tank ph should ideally sit between 7.5-8.2. temp should be 75-80. provide an appropriate size filter to ensure good home for BB. NO WATER CHANGES!! There is a time and place where you might HAVE to change the water but this would be because the ammonia or nitrite levels are out of control and thus becoming dangerously high. so a water change should be done as fish health is our priority. 

The key to to keeping a safe environment for the fish during this process is to keep a very light stock + very light feeding schedule. 1 light feeding on day one followed by adding the ATM Colony, then not feeding till day 4 (again only lightly) and possibly not feeding till the end of the cycle. A third small feeding is not going to hurt anything is your levels are in check. Its better to have fish that are a bit hungry with good water parameters than full fish in a highly toxic environment. 

I would be more than willing to walk you through this process day by day and discuss readings with you if you choose to go this route.

With this product you having plants only make things better. focusing on fast growing low light plants will ensure fish have the best water possible. 

All this boils down to you adding plants one day, and having fish and starting your cycle the next. You can continue to add plants as you get them with no harm to anything.

As far as snails go, I don't see how you can have a planted tank that is free of them. Unless you are really really good at inspection and removal of snails and eggs. Most plants i buy from other hobbyist and lfs have snails. I personally love them as they feed my loaches and help create a more diverse living system.

hope this helps.


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

It's nearly impossible to keep a tank 100% free of snails. It can be done, I'm sure, but would take an immense amount of luck and time. Stocking the tank with something that eats them is one good option. Another is to add assassin snails. And as a general preventative, you can bleach dip all new plants, but some of them take time to recover from that.

I'm not a fan of the dead shrimp option to cycle a tank, either. I'd recommend running things for a little while with just the plants, then add a cheap feeder fish like neon tetras (get a bunch at one of the $1 sales) for cycling. Only then do you add the more important species.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

I never had to fully cycle a tank before. I always had seeded material available to me from friends.

Someone suggested the shrimp option.

I have my fish housed in a 10 gallon tank with the snail infested substrate and old HOB from the 55gallon. 3 neon's 2 rasboras and an otto...and probably 100 tiny Ramshorns.

iso


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

well you just made things super easy imo.

Put the fish and the hob in the new tank and add the new filter along with it. carry on like things are normal and eventually the new filter will grow bacteria. you already have a filter that is capable of handling the fish load.


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

philipraposo1982 said:


> well you just made things super easy imo.
> 
> Put the fish and the hob in the new tank and add the new filter along with it. carry on like things are normal and eventually the new filter will grow bacteria. you already have a filter that is capable of handling the fish load.


I think he's worried about the old HOB bringing snails into the new tank.


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

There are options to dealing with snails. Get some assassin snails or loaches.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

I am worried about the snail infested HOB...LOL.

I am not in a rush to add my fish. They can stay in the 10gallon until my tank is planted and cycled.

So if needed I can skip the shrimp idea and go another route. Maybe the route Phil suggested with the additive.

The main area I'm going to have to read up on and ask for help is the addition of what I believe is considered dosing. I assume that's a general term for adding things like root tabs, osmocote, flourish excel (maybe not as it's organic CO2), Flourish comprehensive, dry fertilizers etc etc. Basically the part that feels like I need a masters in Biology and Chemistry to figure out.

I am undecided on the substrate. I have both eco-complete and Flora Max. I saw some videos where people did a layer of various kinds of substrates where Flourish tabs were added and also osmocote and finally capped with eco.

So far the only plants I have ordered are:
Lilaeopsis mauritana
I was concerned with this choice because of the unknown height it will achieve. I know I can trim it but I'm not so sure that will look great. The natural shape of the leaves looks good, but a trim with scissors makes me think it will look unnatural. 

I plan to add:
Anubias Nana 'Petite' 

Beyond that I have not decided. I already have a decent amount of java moss.

I like Bacopa monnieri 'Compact' but again that seems to need trimming and I'm not sure what it will look like with a flush cut.

I would love to try the borderline varieties (for low tech) like Marsilea Minuta or glosso, but it seems like you need to know what your doing to keep it in a low tech tank. I also like staurogyne repens, but again I think I read it's best kept to high tech.

iso


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

Root tabs are simple. Buy some Osmocote+ tabs from the classifieds, and stick them into the substrate. Done. K.I.S.S.! 

Ferts are similarly simple. Just go with the Estimate Index (EI) starter pack from Green Leaf Aquariums ($15) which will give you enough for years of use. Follow the mixing instructions that come with it. You just add one mix (macros) one day, and the other mix (micros), on the other. Easy.

Excel, if you're not going with real co2, is also simple, just follow the instructions on the label.


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## Shutts318ci (Jan 27, 2016)

philipraposo1982 said:


> I personally don't believe that fish in cycles are the devil like most of brainwashed to believe in the hobby. There is truth that fish in cycles can be dangerous to fish health and can cause death. BUT there is such a thing as a fish in cycle that is 100% safe.
> 
> I cycled my 75g with 13 tiny cardinal tetras! fish that are said to be super sensitive and die off regularly. My cycle lasted 10 days before completion, I will speak more on this after. Right as my cycle was done I added the remaining stock the store had of the same cardinals which ended up putting me at 25 cardinals. 11 months later I have 24 cardinals and I believe the one random death was due to just a weak fish. no sign of disease.
> 
> ...


What a breath of fresh air! :nerd:
I've just come here from another forum that goies crazy at people for even mentioning the phrase "fish-in cycle". I don't want to hurt the fish but if there is a quicker safe way to cycle than fish-less then I'm up for that!

If your offer of advice and assistance is still open, I will be starting a low tech planted community aquarium in a Fluval Roma 240 over the w/e of 26/27th March :wink2: I am a complete newbie and, whilst I have done MUCH research and reading, have no practical experience. I would love to do this and document it's success on this other forum!

Regards.


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