# Losing the battle with algae..



## hamato (Jun 7, 2008)

So I don't know what I am doing wrong. I've had this tank set up for 2 years and have never been able to get it both growing plants nicely and algae free in all that time.

Tank: 12G long
Lighting: 10x Cree XTE @ 700ma 20" above substrate 10" above surface 8hrs/day
Filter: Eheim 2217 with spraybar & 2 nano 240s at each end
CO2: inline reactor
Ferts: 1/8tsp of KH2PO4 & Potassium Nitrate 3x a week and 1/8 tsp CSM/B 2x week
Water change: 50% once per week.

I've tried adjusting everything to see if it gets results. I have been through outbreaks of every type of algae and beaten them and this is the latest one. I feel I am doing something terribly wrong here. The only plants left are about 3/4 of hairgrass and the last 1/4 are what I believe to be Hygrophila corymbosa Kompakt. Everything else has died to various forms of algae (BBA, BGA, hair, and staghorn were all battled with erythromycin and massive doses of H202/excel). 

No inhabitants right now (removed them all when I was doing the H2O2 treatments and never re-added.) CO2 Levels are high (It turns on 1hr before the lights come on) Up until a few days ago it was at fish lethal levels, but since I wanted to add some fish soon I have reduced it.

Here is what the tank looks like right now. I've been scraping it all off every week but that just causes it to accumulate in the hairgrass and reappear next week. It currently is coating all glass that is exposed to the light as well as the equipment and most of the leaves. What you see here is about 2 weeks after cleaning it all off.

I was actually planning to double my light output as I've seen a lot of leaf die-off with anything that was partially shaded, but now I don't know what to do  Help please before I tear this tank down.


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## drewsuf82 (May 27, 2012)

WOW!!!!

Thankfully I've not seen an outbreak like this in my own, I would have already freaked out by now!

The thing that pops out to me is:
*Lighting: 10x Cree XTE @ 700ma 20" above substrate 10" above surface 8hrs/day*

I don't know much about that light or setup, but it seems like an awful lot of light if you're running 10 of them?


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## vernsker14 (Mar 13, 2014)

Is the tank next to a window? If yes, then that could be an issue. If you don't have issues with sunlight i would say you have too much light or the wrong type of lighting.


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

Is it green spot algae or green dust algae? If it is GDA I'd scrape the front just so you can see in the tank and let it run its course. When you see the edges start to peel then wipe it off during a water change to get it out of the tank. It is delicious stuff, I pretend I am leaving it there as a treat for the otos/snails. If you cannot stand it then drop the water level as low as you dare, get lots of plain paper towels ready and wipe up so it all stays on the towel and doesn't go back into the tank. Maybe it is slowing down and won't come right back.

I saw this particular algae years ago. Lucky for me it was being discussed on APD that very week so I knew to leave it alone. SAE decided to use it as a canvas for some art work and carved crosses and circles in it. In October 2014 when I was reviving the tank from serious neglect a huge patch developed on the back pane of the tank that changed shape from day to day. Sort of a green ghost look. I wiped it off a week or so after I was seeing the leading edge peeling off the tank and it didn't return. Was wondering if it would fall off on its own but got tired of it before that happened.

Any time my tank gets more or less than it is used to it will develop algae again. First that GDA, then diatoms, then GSA were nuisances in the past few months even though the tank has been up and running for 2 years. All seem to be gone for the time being as the plants are starting to fill the tank properly.


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## CannaBrain (Oct 3, 2008)

Well, somethings definitely extremely out of balance. I'd suggest a very large water change, cut back on all ferts/co2, and cut back on the light, maybe put some cheesecloth over the leds to diffuse it. If nothing else, perhaps do your wc twice a week. dose only on the first wc, 2nd wc do only clean water.


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## ahem (Dec 27, 2014)

It looks like you might need to start over. It might cost you a lot less time and give an opportunity to re-scape. Trim all the algae off the plants. For plants too far gone, I would get rid of them. 12G is pretty manageable size for this. Scrub the tank down, bleach, etc...

If you don't do that or even if you do and set it back up, I would:

1. Scrutinize your light. Make sure you aren't delivering too much. Put it on a timer and start with 4-6 hours a day and work your way up. I see you have 10 .700ma cree leds but not clear what the volts and henace wattage is, but my experience is that while there are some crap LEDs out there, the quality ones are very intense compared ot other light sources and watts/gal may need to be bumped down (or use a smaller photo period). As others mention, sunlight can be a factor (you didn't mention if near a window).

2. Can't tell your substrate but if it is just dirt, you might want to try a commercial product like Eco-complete that should not come with any algae/infestations in it.

3. At first do a lot of water changes and keep your ferts minimized, try not to have high nitrates. Worry about explosive growth once the tank is stabilized.

4. For the green water and floating algae spores of all flavors, I would look into a UV sterilizer. I know a lot of people don't like them because they might kill useful bacteria and microbes to but I don't believe they sterilize the whole tank, just the water column. I've seen a lot of great reports of them clearing green water. I use a small $30 HOB clip on one I got from Amazon that was part of my successful algae conquering plan.

5. Maybe cut the CO2 and try Excel for a while. Since you have no animals in there it is probably safe to overdose Excel like many do to access Excel's algae killing properties (do some google search on Excel and algae).

6. Once you get it clean, stay on top of it. Scrub algae off the walls every day. Remove/clean leaves immediately if they look like they are getting algae. If the water starts to turn a little green, make big water changes right away. Keep algae out. I think part of the problem is letting it get a toehold. Once a big enough portion of a tank is affected it seems impossible to make it go away without physical removal. 

7. Once it is stabilized, look into an algae crew like otos, nerites, and shrimp. I have a heavy plant and did not worry about cycling it. I aggressively stocked it starting with the algae crew and have not had any problems other than a battle with algae that I finally won for now.


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## PoPoBTC (Aug 11, 2014)

Agree with ahem. Start over.


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## dzega (Apr 22, 2013)

i run similar setup.
12x CREE XPG2+ few chineese deep reds. total power on leds are 20W, same as yours(10*0.7*3=21W in your case) and UP inline diffuser. 
whenever i remove fast growing plants and cleaning crew im doomed. but ive learned my lesson and keep amanos, BN pleco anf few ottos in tank at all times and its all good. also im dosing recommended dose of excel in the mornings to avoid BBA developing.
i know i could just cut back on light but i dont like that because then plants dont grow as compact as in high light.
and i start CO2 4h before lights because i have hard water and co2 build up really slow in that case.

none of the above matters if sunlight is hitting your tank. in that case that is the problem for sure


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## rick dale (Feb 26, 2014)

*algae*

looks like a big window behind it to me. If so , thats your biggest problem. And your lighting is probably next. I would tear it down , clean it up , move it away from the window , and start over. Good luck


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## rowdaddy (Jan 20, 2012)

I had a terrible green water problem comparable to this in one of my tanks. A few water changes, and about a week of running a diatom filter in my canister cleared it right up. I'd reduce my fertilizer a bit also. 


Be careful overdosing excel. It can also melt leaves of siome p plants.


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## rowdaddy (Jan 20, 2012)

Strike my last comment, that's not green water. Buy some SAE, and Amano Shrimp.


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## hamato (Jun 7, 2008)

To answer a few more questions: 

-The substrate is eco complete fine grain
-Window is right next to it, but it is always closed so it's only whatever little ambient light that can get through on the top or bottom of the binds
-The LEDs are actually xt-e cool white run at 700ma with 60 degree optics, but I can dim them down from there. I was planning to add another 10 xt-e warm whites as well as I think there are some spots that are not getting even lighting and dying out as a result. I could dim them as well if it was too much light.

I do see some recommendations to tear it down and start over. I'd have to buy all new plants but I am concerned it will just happen again unless I change something. Even though I have hairgrass covering 3/4 of the tank I don't know if I should keep it. It grows too thick and blocks itself from the light, causing dieoff and algae close to the substrate that is hard to clean. Maybe I'm just letting it grow too aggressively, as all I do is trim the top every couple weeks.

ahem: should I replace or bleach all my filter media as well? I've never done a complete teardown before but I guess if I want to get rid of all the algae spores I would have to do this as well.


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## ahem (Dec 27, 2014)

dzega said:


> i run similar setup.
> 12x CREE XPG2+ few chineese deep reds. total power on leds are 20W, same as yours(10*0.7*3=21W in your case) and UP inline diffuser.


20W of high quality CREEs seem like a lot of light for a 12G unless they are suspended higher or tank is deep.


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## ahem (Dec 27, 2014)

hamato said:


> ahem: should I replace or bleach all my filter media as well? I've never done a complete teardown before but I guess if I want to get rid of all the algae spores I would have to do this as well.


Definitely not an algae expert and don't know if spores can get in high concentration in media or substrate and represent some kind of algae time bomb or not. 

My experience is that removing all/most visible signs of algae seems to have a major affect in keeping it under control which means I either clean affected plants, prune, or remove them BEFORE they become completely covered. Also means, within reason as I want a little algae, keeping it off walls, decorations, and other objects.

it's a tough question as your cycle is contained in that substrate and filter media. Knowing it is eco-complete substrate, if it were my tank I might consider keeping the substrate while removing all the affected plants, all the water, and do a deep cleaning. I might even get new filter media knowing it would have a big filtering job to do as I cleaned the tank. If I decided the tank was too far gone and wanted to bleach the tank and all that, I probably wouldn't bother and would do everything anew including new filter media. Planted tanks don't seem to need to cycle like non-planted tanks. The plants absorb a lot of the bad stuff and the friendly bacteria will gradually build over time.

Given your opinion of your hair grass, it seems like this might be a good opportunity for you to rethink your aquascape and make it suit your tastes better.


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## PhilipS (Jan 9, 2014)

Nitrate NO3 is probably zero like mine. I'm having a re-visit of the GHA too.

Clean the glass with a razor or plastic razor best.

Cover the tank on all 3 sides. Leave the side with the tubes open.

Shut off lights for 3 days.

Figure out the proper EI dosing for your tank. I use the site www.Rota.la

Oh, its a 12G. Great.

For my 12G I add dry ferts to a 500ml dosing bottle:

30ml doses micro 3x/week (CSM+B)
30ml doses macro 3x/week (odd days)

CSM+B - 1.014g
KNO3 - 1.08g
KH2PO4 - 0.09g (94mg)

Keep testing Nitrates till you get up to 10-15ppm and get a dimmer for your tank. Some clubs will loan a PAR meter or the club member will ask for a deposit.


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## CannaBrain (Oct 3, 2008)

why would you consider adding more light? clearly you have far more than enough as it is.


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## hamato (Jun 7, 2008)

CannaBrain said:


> why would you consider adding more light? clearly you have far more than enough as it is.


The plan was to double the light and then reduce the power. One of the problems I am seeing is not enough coverage, especially near the ends of the tank. Since I have only one row of lights 10" above the tank the coverage isn't as great as I would like.


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## angelcraze (Aug 20, 2013)

Raise your fixture, the beam angle will widen and cover better.

I stole this image from another thread to hopefully help what I said make sense.


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## ahem (Dec 27, 2014)

angelcraze said:


> Raise your fixture, the beam angle will widen and cover better.
> 
> I stole this image from another thread to hopefully help what I said make sense.


That is the simplest and easiest solution. However you can also add lights if you reduce photo-periods or dim them. I couldn't raise mine because it would look ridiculous in my family room so I actually got more lights (smaller ones and accent) but do not run them all at the same time. Built natural night to day transitions and have some directly on plant areas. I noticed with the LEDs that if left on long enough, plants directly under an LED bulb ended up with algae on them whereas a plant just an inch or so next to it wouldn't have any algae. I got around by having the different lights on at different times, so no one LED is on for several hours at a stretch.


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## angelcraze (Aug 20, 2013)

Right, I forgot to suggest a siesta.


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## Oceanrift (Dec 30, 2014)

Helps to do a water change before and after the 3-4 day blackout period


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## dzega (Apr 22, 2013)

oh so you also have 60degree optics on thos XTEs. that makes it insane amount of light. remove those optics and you will probably be fine. coverage and intensity wise.


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## sushant (Mar 3, 2007)

Are you using equal quantity of KNO3 & KH2PO4??? Check phosphate levels, this can be one of the reasons for persistent algae issues. You can use Total blackout method for 5 days that will take care of algal growth.


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## PhilipS (Jan 9, 2014)

Added 20 shrimp to the 12G yesterday and wow whst a difference today. Chewing the wood.

Plants are still fuzzy but, looking healthier since they can photosynthesize.


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## hamato (Jun 7, 2008)

sushant said:


> Are you using equal quantity of KNO3 & KH2PO4??? Check phosphate levels, this can be one of the reasons for persistent algae issues. You can use Total blackout method for 5 days that will take care of algal growth.


I was typically using 1/8 of a tsp of both yes, I see now that that was too much phosphate so I will reduce it in the future.

As an update I decided it was too far gone and ripped up all the plants. I took out all the gravel which was pretty filthy, gave it a thorough cleaning, and restarted. Even with no plants it looks 100% better . Still deciding on what to re-plant.


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## PhilipS (Jan 9, 2014)

No sense chucking all the plants into the blender for lunch 

You spent a lot of money on them.

Try dipping them leaves in a hydrogen peroxide solution overnight and trim them down so you do restart with healthy clean plants.

Chances are that you are going to run into the algae in the future from importing it or like a cold it comes back when conditions are right so be prepared and do a little more research (ADA, tube, here, etc).

Keep the sun off the tank.


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## cbucner (Feb 19, 2015)

Nobody seems tonotice that he's dosing phosphates wayyy to much.
For a 12 gal po4 EI is 1/32 tsp not 1/8, 1/8 is for 40-60 gal.
Do a test on po4 with reference samples to know whats your po4 . Dont trust the color chart that comes with the test kit.


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