# need co2 advice for a 30 gallon tank



## Kris (Feb 27, 2004)

i have a glorified DIY in a 30 gallon with a ladder and it seems to work well. it is a kit that comes with a mix and you only add hot water. you have to re-mix it once a month which might be more than you want to remember...


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## sherry (Mar 4, 2004)

I don't mind mixing. I do worry about overdosing.. or dosing at night.. has any of this been a problem for you?


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## Kris (Feb 27, 2004)

sherry,
not that i have noticed. mind you, i am a beginner and my plants aren't gorgeous as i have crappy lighting.
anyway, the "system" takes about 2 hours to get up and running and then little bubbles go up the ladder pretty continuously until they run out of gas in the bottle. 
i hadn't thought about it as a problem at night, but now that i am thinking about the cycle, etc. it should be. maybe someone else will have some insight?
kris


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## sherry (Mar 4, 2004)

Hopefully they will weigh in. Ultimately I need a c02 system that works... that doesn't take up much external space... that won't hurt the fish at night or ph too much during the day.

there is no simple solution for a smallish tank as far as I can see. 

frustrating!!


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

I'm running two NutraFin cannisters on my well planted 40gal tank (3.9 WPG, 13 hr/day). The weather has recently warmed up here and the cannisters combined are producing ~1bps. This was leaving my fish gasping at the surface come morning. On Sunday I woke up at 5am and checked the fish, who were doing OK. But by 7:30 all were gasping. So I've installed a small airstone that runs while the lights are out.

My next project will be to install a pressurized CO2 system that shuts off with the lights.


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## sherry (Mar 4, 2004)

You are ocnvincing me maybe to start wtih a small prssurized system.. is there one that isn't HUge.. or hugely expensive that you are looking at?

might as well try to get it right from the start. 

going to start anotehr thread on safety of these things too.


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## Ace (Dec 10, 2003)

there are lots of size in pressurized co2 system...some only as big as a nutrafin canister...of course bigger ones are better as they last longer.


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## mario (Feb 5, 2003)

Sherry, if you really would like to get into growing some nice plants and if you favour convenience, then by all means go for the pressurized system.

I now run pressurized CO2 on all my tanks and could not be happier.

If you are worried about the costs, I can break the cost down for a cheap system that is fully funcional.

Regulator (welding/beer dispensing) $40
5lbs CO2 bottle (welding supply/fire extinguisher store) $50
quality needle valve $15
CO2 proof tubing $5

The last thing you need is a means to get the CO2 dissolved in your tank. For a couple of tanks I just bubble the CO2 into the filter intake and that works just fine. Since the CO2 gas is so cheap (refill should be less then $10), I don't mind if there are some losses. I have been running a 5lbs bottle of CO2 on my 29 gallon tank for 5 months now and the tank is still at least 90% full. 

I find I don't need a bubble counter, solenoid or pH controller.

Hope this helps... mario


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

The Hagen ladder works great with a pressurized system too. I'm running the ladders in my ten gallon aquariums off the pressurized tank, 24/7, with no problems.


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## eds (Feb 12, 2003)

As with most things in this hobby, you can decide how much or how little you want to put into your set up.

I have a 30g, w/ 55W CF and DIY CO2 - 2 bottles feeding into a bubble counter and then to the Hagen ladder. I swap out one bottle every week - week and a half. Just sort of judging by eye when the bubbles on the ladder become infrequent. Had planned on swapping one out every week, but thought that was more than necessary.

I started dosing a month or 2 ago with NO3, PO4, and TMG. But I do infrequent measuring of water parameters. 

Here is a list of plants that thrive in my set up.
1 anubias - 
nana
2	congensis
3	frazerii
4 java fern
5 small-leafed sag
6 crypt wendtii bronze
7 crypt balansae
8 red hygro
9 corkscrew val
10 ludwigia brevipes 
11 ludwigia palustris 
12 parrot’s feather
13 giant hygro
14 bacopa

I need to trim pretty heavily every other week or so. And the plants all look great. So I figure what I am doing is okay for them. 

No algae, and no fish fatalities for months.

I'm certain my CO2 levels are inconsistent, as I do no measuring, and the bubble rate varies over the life of each bottle. I am experimenting a bit with various yeast mixtures for bubble rate, culture life, etc. But my measurements of ingredients, as well as ferts, and my recordkeeping - leave something to be desired.

But mixing up a bottle every week or 2 is no big deal. And total investment was maybe $10 - including the juice and yeast. Plus maybe another $10 for the ladder diffusor.

You can check out different size/shape bottles to see which are most unobtrusive for yout situation. I have books on the shelf below my tank, and either a 2L soda bottle or a rectangular juice bottle hide behind the books just fine.

If I were doing a larger tank, I would definitely go pressurized. But I'm not really mechanically minded. And with this set-up my tank is certainly doing better than before I added CO2.

I'd probably suggest a newbie start with DIY - mainly because it is so cheap and simple. You WILL see a huge improvement in your plants. In the process, you will learn something about water chemistry through practice. Then, if you are not satisfied with the results - either due to effort involved, water parameters, or plant growth - you can make a more intelligent decision about going pressurized.

I just bought my first canister filter. I tought that was a pretty difficult decision, not being familiar with all of the brands and models. I view pressurized similarly. Right now I'm doing fine without developing a relationship with my local welding shop...


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

One of the problems I'm finding with the NutraFin ladder is that after a while it gets gummed up to where the bubbles get stuck, so I'll end up with 5-6 bubbles piled up. Sometimes the next bubble will nudge on free, but most times the bubbles either merge into one big bubble, or all will break free at once and rush out. In neither case does it look like I'm getting good absorbtion. And getting to the ladders to make any adjustments, behind all the plants, is a very slow and delicate process (darned suction cups!).

This being my first fully planted tank I'm beginning to understand the notion of getting as much hardware out of the tank as possible. For my upcoming pressurized system I built a DYI external reactor using PVC tubes and fittings. Everything, reactor, tank and pump will fit in the stand.

It's not the simplest method out there, but for me, tinkering with all the gadgets is part of the appeal of the hobby.


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## eds (Feb 12, 2003)

I agree that the goal of getting as much gear out of the tank is best.

Re: the ladder, you can cut down on the gunk by running your CO2 thru a bubble counter before it gets to the tank. Just takes another plastic bottle and a bit more tubing.

And removing and scrubbing the ladder is a bit of a pain. But doesn't really take more than 5 minutes at most every couple of weeks.

The more I think of it, the more I am convinced that it is actually a good thing for folks to start off buying, assembling, installing, and maintaining low-tech and DIY solutions before going cadillac. Not only will they learn about what is involved in their tank's ecology, but they will be better able to choose and appreciate the fancier systems when they get them.

Perhaps I'm just rationalizing...


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

You guys clean off the ladder? I never thought of doing that. Maybe that would discourage the snails and shrimp from climbing in there. Remove the salad buffet and the customers will leave too.


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## ninoboy (Jan 26, 2004)

I run both DIY and pressurized (1 tank press. and 2 tanks w/DIY). Personally, I think 30gl is like the cut off and can use either one efficiently. As of Nutrafin system, I think only the ladder is useful. 2L coke bottle gives you much more CO2 and more consistent output than Nutrafin canister. The ladder does do a good job though. I still use them with DIY CO2. 

I agree with Eds that people may be more responsible if they start things from low tech. After I set up the press. for my 55, I hardly check the system no more. But I still check my small tanks DIY every day until now. It's just that many people including me takes thing much too easy as we think that high tech gadget won't fail us. If something goes wrong in my smaller tanks even other than the DIY CO2, I would find out right away as I check them everyday but may take me a few days before I realize something wrong with the bigger tank.


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## Fat Guy (Nov 19, 2003)

Sherry,

Your ultimate decision will be based on what your pH and KH is as well as your surface agitation. 

In other words, the above will determine how much co2 you will need to add to your tank. 

If you're going to need multiple DIY systems, keeping up with your co2 can be a pain. That's why pressurized makes it much easier. I run three systems on my 29g. I'm hoping to pick up a pressurized system soon. I don't mind doing the mixtures, however it would be nice to not have to worry about my co2 output as much.


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## sherry (Mar 4, 2004)

I don't think I can afford the truly automatic systems.. with the ph controller. 

so that leaves me with semi automatic if I go pressurized or dyi. and for dyi I'm a little ocncerned about my ability to put it together. I don't own a drill. I know slap me. I can go to my local hardware store adn I'm sure they can drill the cap for me. 

I love the idea of hiding the hardware either way behind books, except with a two year old in the house.. NOTHING stays HIDDEN!!!!

so that leaves me putting stuff on top of the fridge (next to the tank)( behind the microwave.)

Anybody out here make a cottage industry of putting together a small pressurized system that I can at least put on the timer with my lights?

I invested in a 96 watt quad today on a timer.. 

this is so overwhelming and i haven't gotten to planning my plants yet. 

I'm afraid I'm going to quit before I start .. but I know the c02 issue is the last big hurdle.


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## eds (Feb 12, 2003)

Good luck.

If you are finding this intimidating, you could still decide to take a step backwards and start off lower tech.

I know you have some $ invested in that lighting. 

But I switched to plants in my 30 gal and had some minimal success with only the standard 20W bulb, a HOB bio-wheel, and no CO2, and no idea how to fert.

Each change I made to that system resulted in improvement. If you are starting off with a decent filter, you could do crypts, anubias, java fern, without CO2. But right now, you are limited by that huge light.
If the idea of going pressurized at this point worries you, you could step back to 40-60W and a DIY, and have some pretty decent results.

Then in a couple of years, when junior learned the meaning of "Do not touch!", you could pull out the big guns and go to town.

Just a thought.


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## sherry (Mar 4, 2004)

the light wasn't too expensive.. $129... total... and I assume that you mean I need co2 once i've invested.

I've been mucking around iwth an eclipse 6 and flourish excel up until now... and I really would liek better results

kh is soft. ph is hovering around 6.5... nyc water is straight from upstate rivers so it is very soft.


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## scoach1999 (Mar 20, 2004)

Hi Sherry.

Mario's numbers look pretty good in terms of cost if you shop hard or ask around for where to buy. Lately I have been shopping hard to upgrade.

One note: If you are terribly concerned about the pH shift at night, you can find an automated pH contoller (used in conjunction with a CO2 regulator that has an electric shut-off solenoid) to cut off the CO2 feed when the pH goes out of the set range. The pH controller goes for around $100 unless somebody around here can give me a great lead or a great deal : nudge, nudge:.

Hope that helps.

Earnest Steve


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