# 29gal 10/20 Update- a change of venue (56k!)



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Another project currently underway is an Asian tank that will eventually house some dwarf chain loaches, a school of dwarf rasboras, and some wild-type bettas. This tank will primarily feature Crypts.

Last night I began the initial setup.

*Specs:*
29gal tank
Rena XP2
Coralife 2x18 T5NO
25lb black Colorquartz
9L ADA Amazonia II
big honking piece of Malaysian driftwood

Current plants:
C. wendtii 'bronze'
I also have a ton of Lilaeopsis I'll be trying as the carpet, we'll see how it does for me in low light.

Expected in this week from Aquatic Plant Depot (not all these plants will go in this tank):

Cryptocorynes: Balansae ( CRP513 3 1.58
Cryptocoryne crispatula
v. "Balansae Green"
Cryptocorynes: Becketti CRP507 1 1.58
(Cryptocoryne becketti)
Cryptocorynes: Blassii CRP510 1 1.58
(Cryptocoryne blassii v.
"Broad Leaf"
Cryptocorynes: Lutea CRP503 1 1.26
(Cryptocoryne lutea)
Cryptocorynes: Petchii CRP507 1 1.58
(Cryptocoryne petchii)
Cryptocorynes: CRP512 3 1.58
Retrospiralis
Cryptocoryne
retrospiralis)
Cryptocorynes: CRP502 1 1.26
Wendtii-Red (Cryptocoryne
wendtii)
Cryptocorynes: Willisii CRP500 1 1.26
(Cryptocoryne willisii)
Cryptocorynes: Ciliata CRP504 1 1.26
(Cryptocoryne ciliata)
New Arrivals: Red Melon None 1 2.97
md(echinodorus barthii)
Floating & Spawning: SFP963 1 3.31
Frogbit (Limnobium
spongia)
Swords: Ozelot Medium SSP430 1 2.99
(Echinodorus Ozelot)
Subtotal 28.53
Shipping 12.00
Tax 2.16
Total 42.69

And here's the pics. Still a LOT Of work to do:


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## fishbguy1 (Feb 29, 2008)

:O

That's alot of plants! haha I can't wait.

*can't see pics...stupid school computers*


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## Ozymandias (Jan 17, 2008)

wow thats a long list of plants

cant wait to see it planted


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## moogoo (Dec 7, 2007)

she said not all those plants will go in that tank...


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## Church (Sep 14, 2004)

You're not kidding, that really _is_ one big honking piece of driftwood! I like where you're going with this one. I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for the crypts. That's pretty much why my 5g has practically nothing but crypts in it!

As a side note, since I've always gone and picked up my plants from them in person, I never knew what shipping would cost at apd... $12 is an awesome deal for shipping on all those plants!

I'm subscribing!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

moogoo said:


> she said not all those plants will go in that tank...


The C. balanse for sure will go in, in the back left corner.

I'm debating trying the C. retrospiralis in the right corner to balance it out.

C. ciliata I think will go in the background to the right of the C. retrospiralis.

The smaller crypts I'm going to arrange around the driftwood and midground.

I'm debating adding some C. parva... we'll see how it looks once the other crypts and the microsword is in place.

Church- yeah, I couldn't pass up the deal once I figured I'd probably never be able to get the same variety from a fellow hobbyist with the same low shipping cost. When buying in bulk, online distributors definitely have an edge.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

So I did my first 85% water change today. This is going to get old if I have to keep it up with the old bucket brigade, and only adding the water into the tank little at a time to keep from disturbing the AS... and _*still*_ having to replant the crypts after each time... :confused1:


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## MikeP_123 (Aug 31, 2008)

My water started out cloudy from my substrate but with my filter running full blast, and a little help from API's "ACCU-CLEAR", it cleared up in 2-3 days with no water changes.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

sounds good laura. 

try putting the bucket higher then the tank, and then use airline tubing to fill the tank via siphon. it will take ages, but thats exactly what will keep the AS from being disturbed. plus then you dont have to hold it up while you try to pour it in slowly.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

MikeP_123 said:


> My water started out cloudy from my substrate but with my filter running full blast, and a little help from API's "ACCU-CLEAR", it cleared up in 2-3 days with no water changes.


I don't think you were using ADA AquaSoil in your tank. This stuff requires a special kind of cycle due to the massive amounts of ammonia it will release for at least a few weeks (if not a month or more...)


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> try putting the bucket higher then the tank, and then use airline tubing to fill the tank via siphon. it will take ages, but thats exactly what will keep the AS from being disturbed. plus then you dont have to hold it up while you try to pour it in slowly.


I'd have to put the bucket on my head!!

Last time I tried that, I ended up wearing more water than actually got where it was supposed to go... (I was actually in Africa trying to carry water the way all the other girls were doing it... it takes much more skill than I've got, that's for sure!!! I've got some old pics around somewhere, showing me looking like a drowned rat smeared with red clay. We were building a house for Habitat. I need to find that album and scan those pics some day. )


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

That's one big chunk o' wood 
I can't wait to see where this one goes


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Sorry no pics, camera is off travelling the country with my hubby and I can't figure out how to work my Treo camera...

Was too tired for my water change yesterday. I'm going to do it tonight before I go to bed, though. My order from Aquatic Plant Depot came in today. Good thing I already have some C. wendtii, b/c the ones they sent are TINY! LOL The other plants all look in pretty good shape, though. Fairly certain everything was grown emersed. I'm going to go ahead and put all the crypts in the tank and see which ones end up doing the best. I also pulled the needle-leafed java fern and hygro angustifolia over from my 46gal.

I need to remember to bring my test kits home from work so I can start getting levels on this tank. Since I added plenty of tank mulm at the start and my XP2 was already cycled, I'm hoping this cycle will be shortened. The water discoloration from the tannins and ammonia in the DW and AS are pretty pronounced, though- even with Purigen in the filter.

The water isn't at all cloudy from particles, though. I think it's b/c I did those partial water changes right at the beginning before I ever fully filled the tank to pull out all the dust. Also helps that I've done a big water change after each planting, and been super-careful when refilling the tank to minimize disturbing the substrate.


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## Church (Sep 14, 2004)

100% of all the crypts I've ever bought from them were grown submerged. What I did notice, though, is that when they are overstocked, they let some float, and I think half of the plants start acting like they're emersed, or something to that effect. I'd say about 90% (if not more) of their property is devoted to growing aquatic plants submerged.

But they _do_ have a greenhouse type structure up towards the front of the property, and I think it's mostly for the bog plants, or pond plants, but I wouldn't doubt if they use it for growing out plants that will eventually be submerged. So far, the only plant I've ever bought from them which was gotten from that greenhouse was a pot of giant hairgrass.

As far as I know, all of the crypts (at least the ones I got) were taken from submerged concrete pools under natural lighting.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'm fairly sure that these weren't. The leaves were too thick and the stems too rigid. Going through quite a bit of melt ATM, but that's probably also at least partially due to the high ammonia from the ADA AS. My work schedule has been so crazy I haven't been able to keep up with the daily water changes, so I'm trying to get by with every other day... so I know the ammonia is absolutely skyrocketing. The tank water looks like tea...


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

Amazonia is a beast. my water looks like tea and has 4.0+ levels of ammonia, and thats with two 60% pwc's a day :icon_cry: 

im here for you lol!! :hihi:


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Ugh. How long you been working with yours now?

I was hoping with all the mulm I used under the AS and starting with an already cycled XP2 that my cycle will be a little shorter... but with me managing only every other day water changes I'm worried now I may still be cycling 2 months from now.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

How many watts are you going to have over your tank? Are you going to have injected co2?


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> Ugh. How long you been working with yours now?
> 
> I was hoping with all the mulm I used under the AS and starting with an already cycled XP2 that my cycle will be a little shorter... but with me managing only every other day water changes I'm worried now I may still be cycling 2 months from now.


im cycling now!! i think the AS has been in water for about 2 weeks ish. im using 2 cycled filters and no mulm. 

stick with it  :thumbsup:


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## Pooky125 (Jul 30, 2002)

Ooh, I'll be keeping a close eye on this one, sounds very much like the 30gal I've got going right now.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Hilde said:


> How many watts are you going to have over your tank? Are you going to have injected co2?


No CO2, and there's 2x18watts of T5NO over the tank. Staying low light, low tech, which is what I like.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I've planted the Lilaeopsis and C. parva, and am happy the way the scape is starting to rough together. I added a few handfuls of large river gravel from my 46gal to the front of the tank to emphasize a low spot (and also hopefully to add some more N-bacteria, since my 46gal has been up and running for eons...) I do still need to separate out and replant the Lilaeopsis, and after I do that I think the tank will actually look pretty good.

Still going through quite a bit of Crypt melt, though. Gofe a few new leaves coming in, so that's a hopeful sign. I'm starting to worry slightly about my C. wendtii 'bronze,' though, since I'm not seeing any new leaves on any of those... and they didn't have good root systems by the time they got planted in this tank, either. Even the needle-leafed Java fern has been browning quite a bit. I did a trim to remove most of the old stuff.

Did about an 80% water change. Decided from here on out that I'm going to try to make sure the water level stays over the tops of the leaves of the plants during water changes. Even though I was misting the leaves in the middle of the water changes, I suspect that they may have been drying out too much and this may be contributing to the melt-off.

Wish I could get some pics...


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

my crypts do fine when i do water changes... and i forget to fill it back up for like 15 minutes sometimes


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Well then maybe it's just normal crypt melt, then... I've got a few that I kinda don't think will come back, but hopefully that's just a few.

I figured out how to download SOME of the pics from my Treo, so here's some pics of the tank last week. Doesn't reflect the new plants and gravel bed, though...


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Managed to snag the digital camera. The tannins really show up in these pics, those pics last week were right after a water change. Within a day, the water in the tank always looks like these pics. IDK for sure how much is tannins from the DW versus from the ADA AS. (I did put this DW through the dishwasher on "sanitize" before using it...) I definitely need to spread the Lilaeopsis around some, the Hygro is just floating in there temporarily, and I will probably end up adding some more C. balanse and retropspiralis once the tank has cycled.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

So I've found mosquito larvae in the tank! Not only that, but a few molts floating on the surface of the water! :icon_eek: Plus a few snails in the tank... which makes me think that I really need to bring my test kits home from work tomorrow to see exactly what these levels are running. Is there any chance that this tank has actually already cycled??


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

so, where are the wild bettas?
the tannin mimic their natural habitat and the rest of your fish.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

The tank isn't ready for them yet. I need to be sure that the AS has cycled, plus they will be the last fish I add to the tank. First will be some Dwarf chain loaches and some Boraras briggitae. Possibly also some Nerites...


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I have completely neglected the tank this week. I think I've managed only one water change. I'm positive the pH is through the floor and the ammonia is through the roof. Even my hygro and my java fern have melted! :icon_eek:

Surprisingly, the C. parva is doing really well. It actually looks the best of all the plants in the tank.

I need to do a water change tomorrow and get this tank cycled.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

So 3 weeks in, and my ammonia is finally down to 0.25ppm.

I did a 75% PWC today and cleaned the XP2. This was beyond a shadow of a doubt the dirtiest filter I've ever cleaned... and it's only been running on this tank for 3 weeks. I had a LARGE bag of Purigen in the filter- and every single bead inside was a deep, dark brown. I think I'm going to have to bleach it 2x, actually; the bleach water is already about the same color as the Purigen and it's only been in there 10min. :icon_eek:

I've continued to have quite a bit of Crypt melt. The Hygro and the Java fern both died back; I'm attributing it to Ammonia burn. I finally pulled the Java rhizome out today and put it into my 46gal to recouperate. Quite a bit of Lilaeopsis also has died back, though the remaining leaves look pretty healthy. The C. parva have been the troopers of the tank- only a few melted leaves out of all the plants I added, and overall they're looking really good.

If the ammonia levels are still low tomorrow I'm going to test the tank with a few Amano shrimp. *fingers crossed*

I've also settled on my Betta species- _Betta simplex_. I plan on a "reverse trio"- 2 males and 1 female.:



















6 or so _Yasuhikotakia sidthimunki_ 



















And a small school of Boraras, probably _B. brigittae_:


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

the betta looks great, and i love bettas.
but are you sure you can manage a reverse trio? i know that simplex isnt as aggressive as splendens, but they ARE still bettas, and two males...
especially with only 1 female. im not an expert, but id think that 2 females and 2 males would be better than 2 males and 1 female (1 male, 1 female would be best though). since id assume the males would fight for the right to court the female as well as for territory.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

sounds like Amazonia needs to go through a 'mineralizing' period as well.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> the betta looks great, and i love bettas.
> but are you sure you can manage a reverse trio? i know that simplex isnt as aggressive as splendens, but they ARE still bettas, and two males...
> especially with only 1 female. im not an expert, but id think that 2 females and 2 males would be better than 2 males and 1 female (1 male, 1 female would be best though). since id assume the males would fight for the right to court the female as well as for territory.


Nope, I've been doing my HW. Since the males are the ones who care for the fry, and don't eat while doing so (B. simplex are mouthbrooders) they are the ones who need respite from the females. And the females are capable of spawning every 2 weeks when well-conditioned. So they need males to choose from. The males are non-aggressive during their courtship.

Keep in mind that one reason Betta splendens are so aggressive with each other is that those genes were artifically selected by humans; they were bred to fight for sport. In the wild they are territorial but co-exist.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

really?
thats a pretty peaceful betta.

im aware of the history of b. splendens, but while the genes were amplified through selective breeding, they were naturally there to begin with. its too bad IMO, since i think a tank of b. splendens schooling together would look stunning.


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## ZooTycoonMaster (Jan 2, 2008)

Oooh I love Sidthimunki Botias I have 1 in my tank right now...cept I can never get him to stand still for a picture


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

where are you going to get the betas from laura? online or an lfs? they seem pretty amazing.


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

very cool LL!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

monkeyruler90 said:


> where are you going to get the betas from laura? online or an lfs? they seem pretty amazing.


I've got a couple of options. Plakat here on TPT has some B. simplex that have been spawning, and if those spawns work out I might get some of his. If not, I've located a breeder up in Pensacola who usually has some, I found an LFS that gets them occasionally (they had one male when I was there yesterday), and they're usually some on AquaBid, too. 

I'll stock the Bettas last, so it will probably be after New Years before I get them.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

So this morning the bleach/water mixture in my Purigen regeneration container was the color of coffee. No exaggeration. I dumped it out and made a new solution probably about 10am this morning, then we headed over to the other coast for an early Thanksgiving dinner with my in-laws. Just got back- and the water is now "just" tea-colored. Bright orangish tint, actually - looks just like Thai tea! I would have replaced it again but I don't have enough bleach left... I may stop by WallyWorld tomorrow after work and get some more, though, if it looks like coffee again in the morning.

After multiple days of bleaching I'm going to have to be super-careful with the dechlorination step. Good thing I've got some more Prime that should arrive in tomorrow with a shipment from Big Als.

The tank is already pretty cloudy, too. BUT the pH and ammonia just checked out, so I added 2 Amanos. Been an hour now, and so far so good...

I'm also ordering some more Crypts for the tank to replace all those that melted off. I expect many of the melted Crypts will probably grow back over time, but since this is a low light tank and growth is slow, I really want to get the tank looking nice quickly and might as well start off with lots of plant matter to help keep down the algae.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

4 hours after adding the Amanos they're looking good; zipping around the tank like Amanos normally do. If they're still kicking tomorrow, I'll add another 6 or so. 

This will leave about 14 Amanos in my 46gal, and about the same # in my 90gal. Looking at those numbers, I'll probably end up moving some more from my 46gal into the 90gal.

I also need to "seed" this tank with MTS...


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## Birds'nBunny (Sep 3, 2008)

This sounds like it's going to be a great tank! I am jealous that you are getting dwarf chain loaches, they are at the top of my wishlist. Good luck with the new crypts.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Thanks BnB  I expect I'll have more Crypt melt, but I think I may have made a mistake in sticking Crypts in this tank right at the beginning. Since the C. parva are doing so much better I think the conditions in the tank for the first week or two were really too extreme and hopefully now the new Crypts won't melt quite as badly as the first batch.

On the Purigen front, the bleach mixture looks like coffee again today. I bought more bleach on the way home so I'll again make a new solution before going to bed. The Purigen is slowly looking better- just still quite a few beads that are brown so I hope just one more day will do it.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

The 3rd bleaching did the trick. Used probably 90% bleach to 10% water, too LOL

The tank water is back to brown and cloudy. Pretty sure the Purigen bag in the filter is going to be totally coffee-colored already, after what, 3 days? :icon_eek: Looks like I may spend quite some time regenerating and replacing Purigen bags...

There's at least one Amano still alive in the tank. Can't find the other- not sure if it's just hiding or it may have jumped and been eaten by the four-legged furry furies. I'm a little on the fence about adding more Amanos... I think I'm gonna double-check the water params.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

For anyone wanting to read up on _Betta simplex_, here ya go:

http://smp.ibcbettas.org/species/simplex.html


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Current pic, Tannin City!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Found one of the Amanos dying today (on its back twitching) so I went ahead and put if out of its misery and did an 80% water change. I also put the large bag of Purigen back in the XP2. The other Amano seems just fine, though there are a bunch of MTS sitting on the surface of the AquaSoil closed up and not moving... I'm going to keep an eye on them and if they're still in the same position tomorrow assume that they're dead and pull them out.

Weird thing is that I couldn't detect any nitrogenous wastes, and the water parameters checked out the same as my other tanks? So IDK maybe it was just coincidence... I also found an Amano molt, so maybe that Amano didn't do well with the fluctuating water parameters in its molted phase.

On the bright side, there are new leaves coming up on most of the Crypts... except the C. wendtii bronze, which has me a bit puzzled since it's been in there the longest. Maybe it's just being tempermental.

I should have a bunch more Crypts on the way next week. Also some more Lilaeopsis, hopefully this batch won't melt away like the last batch did (again I think/hope it was the extreme water params while cycling the ADA AS).


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Could you explain what you are using the Clorax for and where you put it. I am bit confused as how come you are using it.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'm using bleach to regenerate my bags of Purigen. Purigen is a chemical media manufactured by Seachem that absorbs tannins and other organics that will discolor water. I like it better than using activated carbon, since it can be regenerated in a 3-step process and then put back in the filter for repeated use.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

What filter do you put this mixture in? What do you think is adding tannins into your tank? Is it deliberate?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

The Purigen stays inside the media bag made by Seachem, and that stays inside my XP2 filter. I have Purigen in all of my tank filters, actually.

The tannins are coming from the Malaysian driftwood and from the ADA AquaSoil. How much is coming from which of those, I'm not sure.

I haven't decided yet if I want ANY tannins in this tank; I may decide to leave some in there over the long run since all Betta species do enjoy them- but I definitely don't want the water as dark as it currently gets. Not enough light gets through to the plants.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Very interesting!!:icon_eek: I adding this info to my Aquarium Info folder.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I hope it was helpful. Personally, I really like Purigen as chemical media. 

Today the tank is cloudy white. I can see particles floating around. Not sure if it's fines from the ADA AS, or a bacteria bloom, or both...

But the MTS are up and about, so I'm not as worried about the water params as I was. 

The new big bag of Purigen seems to be keeping the water pretty tannin-free this time. And the little bag is coming clean with just one bleach treatment.

With Xmas just around the corner I think I may not get to stocking this tank till after the New Year. We'll see. Scary how it's only a month away! :icon_eek:


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Cloudiness has definitely faded some today, so I'm leaning towards a bacteria bloom. I'm actually taking that as a good sign. I'll probably add a few more Amanos later this week.

Jaidexl's also very kindly sending me some Olive nerites that will go in this tank as soon as they arrive. This will be my first time keeping Nerites, so we'll see how badly their egg casings annoy me. If they annoy me as much as they did Jaide, these might become "pass-the-snails" LOL


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## cah925 (May 18, 2007)

lauraleellbp said:


> Current pic, Tannin City!


Wow, that's a lot of tannins. I don't think I've ever had that much leech before.



lauraleellbp said:


> I should have a bunch more Crypts on the way next week. Also some more Lilaeopsis, hopefully this batch won't melt away like the last batch did (again I think/hope it was the extreme water params while cycling the ADA AS).


The Lilaeopsis I sent you was grown in AS, so hopefully you won't have any problems with this batch.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

And that was the day BEFORE the water change- I just about couldn't see through the tank the next day! :icon_eek:

That's good to know about the Liliaeopsis, hopefully that will help, and thanks!

Which reminds me- it came in today, and looks great; thanks again!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

What are Amanos? Perhaps they would eat the snail egg shells?


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

Tannins are def coming from the DW and not the AS.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Amanos are algae-eating shrimp- species _Caridina japonica._ I've never heard of them eating Nerite eggshells?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

What is DW? Can we not speak English. Not everyone is up on aquarium lango.


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

drift wood


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

So there were a few changes today.

I found the 2nd Amano dead. Which is worrisome, because I also got in 3 Olive Nerites from Jaidexl. So I did a large water change (after planting a bunch of new plants), added the Nerites, and I'm just hoping for the best. 

I added a whole new carpet of Lilaeopsis from Cah, and some Cryptocorne balanse and C. retrospiralis from Ingg.

Last but certainly not least, I swapped out the Rena intake and flow bar for a clear acrylic intake and output from fishman8909. :thumbsup:

(The tank has been staying this cloudy.) Anyways, here's the pics:



















A ton of new C. retrospiralis:


















New lilaeopsis (this stuff is a PAIN to plant!!)










Added to the C. balanse (the new ones are the red stems)



















And some of the older crypts that have established pretty well:

C. parva



















IDK which species this one is?











So that's it. Just wanted to capture some photos before these start their melt-off. If you look closely, there are tiny new shoots starting on most of the old crypts. I just dunno how long it will take them to fill in with this low lighting?


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

Got any shots of the lillys? did you have him make a custom set?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Yes, though I didn't bother with the "flare" since you can't see the outputs on any of my tanks anyways. You can see the intake in the C. balanse pics...

I'll take a pic of the other set and post them tomorrow (I got a set to go in my 90gal, too, but haven't swapped them in yet).


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Ooops I totally forgot about getting that picture. I'll try to remember tomorow.

Today the tank is so milky I can't see through to the back of the tank. Looks like the tannins are starting to show through again, too. I can't believe this big bag of Purigen is already exhausted! I'll do a water change tomorrow and crack open the XP2 to see how it looks. The other bag is ready to go back in if I need to swap them out already.

All 3 Nerites are moving around and looking OK. And some of the MTS are crawling around, too.

Of course, the new Crypts have started their melt-off. I need to add some more species to the midground.

It's going to be a while before this tank is stable enough to add fish, I think.


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## dekstr (Oct 23, 2007)

Looking good! My tanks are always progressively turning tea colour. 
The easiest way I find to get rid of it is a water change--purigen does the trick too : )

Murkiness in the water should clear up in a few days after everything settles down.

Take your time cause it's looking good!!!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Sorry to hear that you lost some of your amano's. Could they be dieing from stress? Have you been adding some stress coat for them?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Hilde, I use Prime as a water conditioner for all of my tanks. I'm sure it was stress that killed the Amanos, and I think that the water parameters in this tank haven't stabilized yet; between the changes that the ADA AS has on the tank water and the frequent water changes.

dekstr- the kind of odd thing is that this tank is increasing in murkiness every day instead of things settling out? Makes me lean towards thinking this is bacterial instead of sediment.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Did a 75% water change. Water was so cloudy I couldn't see through to the back of the tank. 

Also had to replace the large Purigen bag; it was completely dark brown. :icon_eek:

My Nerites look like they have holes in their shells; that can't be good... 

Dude, this tank is WORK! :confused1:


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Perhaps the snails have holes because they lack calcium. Calcium nitrate would be a good source of calcium plus good for plants.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Sorry guys, still no pictures. No clue where our digital camera is, and I didn't get a camera for Xmas after all... so I'll start saving up to get one of my own.

I planted a few more crypts. The vast majority of the crypts I've planted in this tank to date have all melted completely away and so far aren't showing any signs of growing back. I do, however, still have some C. retrospiralis, C. balansae, and C. parva. Also *three* of the crypts from Aquatic Plant Depot survived (I don't remember now which species they are), and I have a bunch of C. lucens and 2 new C. spiralis from gmccreedy. These last seem to be doing pretty well, and several have already put up new leaves. The new leaves on most of the other crypts melted within a week; we'll see how long these last.

All 3 Nerite snails are alive and kicking, and I see MTS on a regular basis too (downside of that is they've uprooted a few of the C. parva in their burrowings).

I did a large water change the night before last. The tank is cloudy white today, but not as bad as it has been previously, and no tannins at all so far. There had been some algae in this tank- quite a bit was growing on the mag float I have near the surface of the water, on the DW, and along the back tank wall. I noticed this morning that the algae was gone from the mag float. And I just now noticed that the Nerites have eaten all the algae off the back tank wall! I _think_ I've finally turned a corner with this tank. Sooooo.... I added 2 new "test Amanos" a few hours ago. They are alive and kicking, and seem to be happily exploring the tank.

The last 2 Amanos that died kicked the bucket shortly after molting. I'm going to wait till after these two have successfully molted and lived before I'm going to pronounce the tank "safe" and begin stocking.







Here's to hoping Invertz Factory still has some Y. sidthimunki left by the time I'm ready for them...


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## MARIMOBALL (Mar 18, 2007)

Interesting journal. Im gonna start a 30gal tank for a customer that will be low tech tank with 42 watts of lighting. Im interested to see how your foreground carpet will look under 18 watts. keep up with those water changes:thumbsup:. BTW are you using RO water. The algae and milky water subsided in one of my tanks after doing weekly 30% changes with RO water.


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

aww, i feel bad for those amanos. use cherries, they're not wild caught.

yeah i saw the lilaeopsis growing in cah's tank, it looked beautiful, im sure it'll look great in your tank as well.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Actually, I've killed off 3 batches of Lilaeopsis in this tank to date. I think the sediment in the water column coated the leaves, as well as it and the tannins blocked the light. :frown:

I'm not sure I'm going to try it again... I may end up sticking with all crypts in this tank and see if I can get C. parva to fill in, instead.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

I wonder if some potassium sulfate would help your plants grow better.


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

aww really? wow, thats weird. that must have been a lot of sediment
bu yeah, if the c. parva fills in it'll look great. 

i can't wait till you get the betta simplex, they look like great little fish.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Hilde said:


> I wonder if some potassium sulfate would help your plants grow better.


Hilde, I don't ever dose the water column in any of my tanks. They're all low light and I do use nutrient-containing substrates. If the plants can't get what they need from the substrate or from livestock waste then they're just tough out of luck. 

MR90; yes the tank has been mikly white the entire time from the fine particles in the substrate. I know it's coming from the ADA AS b/c every time I disturb the substrate I can see a milky white cloud rise from it... it's weird, but I've seen this same issue with other people's ADA, too.


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

c'mon laura, you've gotta find a camera... the suspense is killing me!


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

oldpunk78 said:


> c'mon laura, you've gotta find a camera... the suspense is killing me!


x2!!! 

Can't believe I just found this journal of yorus! I can't wait until it's up and running and fully stocked! 

How are the amanos doing? and the plants now?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Well good news- I got a camera for my Bday! 

And - the Amanos so far are still alive and kicking.

The tank is as cloudy as ever, and the Crypts are still melting, though:


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

I think some moss or java fern tied around the trunk would look good.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> Hilde, I don't ever dose the water column in any of my tanks. They're all low light and I do use nutrient-containing substrates. If the plants can't get what they need from the substrate or from livestock waste then they're just tough out of luck.


Seems it would be less costly to spend money on ferts than to buy more plants.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Hilde said:


> Seems it would be less costly to spend money on ferts than to buy more plants.


Oh I own plenty of ferts... but they all just sit on the shelf underneath this tank. I prefer to set up low light/ low tech tanks specifically so that I don't have to dose them.

I design my tanks around the fish, not the plants. 

And I may put some sort of moss or some Java fern on the DW in the future... it will just be one of the last plants I add to the tank, if I do. :thumbsup:


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> Oh I own plenty of ferts... but they all just sit on the shelf underneath this tank. I prefer to set up low light/ low tech tanks specifically so that I don't have to dose them.
> 
> I design my tanks around the fish, not the plants.
> 
> And I may put some sort of moss or some Java fern on the DW in the future... it will just be one of the last plants I add to the tank, if I do. :thumbsup:


lol yeah, theres a ton of people that think the other way. its ALL about the plants. the fish are just random creatures that zoom around the tank. :hihi:. i like how you design your aquariums. you have nice plants but you also have nice fish. 
like in your 90g, you have amazing plants and you have an amazing set of healthy fish too. they complement each other.:thumbsup:

oh and some fissidens fontanus would look awesome in that hunk of DW. when are you gonna find your camera and update the pics. has the tanning gotten better?


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## roybot73 (Dec 15, 2007)

Are those MTS on the glass in the first pic in post #79?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Roybot- yes, they are. I actually managed to kill quite a number in this tank during the first month or so icon_eek but there are still quite a few survivors. Today, I even see a little baby, so the water parameters are in better shape than they were, for sure.

MR99- Tannins are creeping back again, though; today the tank is much yellower than it was yesterday. Thanks for the compliment on my 90gal, though- I'm really happy with the way that tank has turned out. I just have one "problem area" in the tank where I haven't found a good plant that can stand up to the Cories... but the tank is pretty close to how I envisioned it! 

I'm just hoping at some point the cloudiness in this tank will go away for good, and I'll have a nice healthy stand of Crypts... *sigh*

I'd also like to stock the tank with fish before 2010 if at all possible... :frown:

Some of my friends over on TFH are suggesting that I tear out the ADA and go with mineralized soil in this tank instead. I hate to do that with all the $$ I just spent on this ADA, but if this cloudiness keeps up for another few weeks, I just may go ahead.


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## roybot73 (Dec 15, 2007)

Could it be that the MTS are stirring up the substrate to the point of cloudiness? It's really kind of odd that the tank is still cloudy...


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I hadn't thought of that- and it completely makes sense!

If that's the case, though- the tank will have to be torn down to rectify it... :icon_cry:

Tank is dramatically more cloudy today than yesterday, too. *sigh*


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Awww no! I'm so sorry to hear about that!!! 

What about a simple polishing pad in your filter? You might have to change it like every day for a while which I imagine would be a pain in the but with a canister, but do you have an extra HOB that you could throw on the tank for a little while to see if it helps?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

How about using clear by nutrifn? It is labeled as a biological water clarifier. Worked for me. 

If that doesn't work perhaps a little sand in an area for the Cory's would keep them from stirring up the gravel. I have pool sand in my tank and my Cory's love it.


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

are you still using purigen? it could be a bad batch of ASII...


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

chris127 said:


> are you still using purigen? it could be a bad batch of ASII...


yeah, i agree its weird that the tank still hasn't stabilized. 
i know getting a DE filter would definitely make the water crystal clear but if its a bad batch then you might have to keep it running for longer. you can always give it a try, $50ish for a HOT magnum and $15 for the DE powder.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I've decided that 3 months is patient enough- the tank looks no better today than the first day I started, and no matter how many water changes, and how careful I am during water changes (have I mentioned that when I do water changes I fill this tank one cupful at a time to avoid disturbing the substrate? ) this tank is just not getting anywhere. I've used micron pads, filter floss, Purigen- none of it has made any difference at all, and I don't want to add any coagulants since I want to start stocking fish soon.

I think the turbid water is choking out the light and killing the crypts, I'm tired of wasting $$ and plants this way...

So I'm going to break it down, ditch the ADA, and start again. This time with mineralized soil.

Hopefully I can get it all done tomorrow and back together. I want to get this tank stable so I can work on the 46gal conversion that's been on hold FOREVER now...


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> I've decided that 3 months is patient enough- the tank looks no better today than the first day I started, and no matter how many water changes, and how careful I am during water changes (have I mentioned that when I do water changes I fill this tank one cupful at a time to avoid disturbing the substrate? ) this tank is just not getting anywhere. I've used micron pads, filter floss, Purigen- none of it has made any difference at all, and I don't want to add any coagulants since I want to start stocking fish soon.
> 
> I think the turbid water is choking out the light and killing the crypts, I'm tired of wasting $$ and plants this way...
> 
> ...


You can try capping the AS


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If roybot is right and it's being stirred up by the MTS, that won't help.

I _*might*_ try mixing some in with the mineralized soil/clay mixture though... just for this tank, and see how it works. Maybe the clay would help bind those particles?


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## ZooTycoonMaster (Jan 2, 2008)

Do you want my Sword to go in _this_ tank then?

Good luck!


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> If roybot is right and it's being stirred up by the MTS, that won't help.
> 
> I _*might*_ try mixing some in with the mineralized soil/clay mixture though... just for this tank, and see how it works. Maybe the clay would help bind those particles?


it's worth a try. I would hate throwing out new AS


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

ZTM- not for this tank; only crypts and Asian plants are going in this tank! 

CLW- atm throwing it out in the back yard is what I WANT to do with it... but I think your suggestion is probably a much better idea (seeing as I spent a small fortune on this stuff )


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

do you have carbon in your filter? it binds stuff out chemically, but good carbon is full of small pores, and also acts as a fine mechanical filter.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Nope, not on this tank.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

id reccomend trying some. its certainly wont hurt.


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

you can't go wrong with mineralized soil


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Have you tried using clear by nutrifin and put a HOB filter with floss in it? My tank was once cloudy like yours after moving plants and that is what worked for me.

ADA Amazonia II seems very rich with nutrients. I wonder if just adding pottery clay to it would accomplish the same results as mineralized soil does. Perhaps the clay would take hold of the particles that are causing the dusty look. 

Here are 2 articles I read about mineralized soil:
http://home.infinet.net/teban/how-to.html
how-mineralized-soil-substrate-aaron-talbot.html

I did mineralized soil with my adjustments, for I didn't have access to all of the ingredients. The plants are growing good. I just have to dose KNO3. I am hoping after i add diy Co2 I don't have to dose. It is because my water is so treated with chemicals I have to add some nutrients in the water. Many don't add any.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Hilde said:


> ADA Amazonia II seems very rich with nutrients. I wonder if just adding pottery clay to it would accomplish the same results as mineralized soil does. Perhaps the clay would take hold of the particles that are causing the dusty look.


I considered that, Hilde- and I'd still have to cap the clay mixture... so at this point, I'm just going ahead and converting to mineralized soil.

I am going to mix some of the ADA in with the clay/soil mixture, though- so we'll see how that turns out?

I'm starting on this today, actually- so we'll see very shortly!


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

what are you capping the mineralized soil with? some 3m sand?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

CQ T grade, not the sand.

I'm just waiting for it to get a bit warmer outside, since I've got to go wash it...


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

are you going to have to smash up the aquasoil that you use with mineralized topsoil? if it makes it's way back through your cap, you could end up with the same problems you have now(just on a smaller scale.)


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

No, I think smashing it would be more problematic... I am going to try rinsing a little and see if that works?

The CQ is rinsed, the plants and livestock are all out of the tank... and now I'm at a standstill b/c I quickly decided that I need to take the tank outside try and remove the AS, but I can't lift this tank by myself and need to wait till my hubby gets home so he can help me. 

I am going to take some of the ADA outside and see what happens when I try and rinse it, though.

I suppose I also could go ahead and make some mineralized soil "slurry" so it's ready to go when I need it...

I think I may need some more of my rubbermaid bins for this project! LOL


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

Have you tried taking out the driftwood for a week, to see if that's the cause of your tannin problem? I think the big stump in my 29 gallon tank colored the water for a couple months.

The ADA AS 1 leeched I have tannins for about a month. Water changes were a royal pain, until the HC carpet grew in. I don't know how anyone can have Aquasoil without a fully carpeted tank. I'm not a big fan of the stuff :redface:


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

It's really not the tannins that are such a big deal- I know that those are coming from the DW, and as long as I keep changing out the Purigen that's easily enough taken care of.

It's just the tiny fine particles always floating around in the water, that come up from the substrate, that's the big issue.

ATM the tank is all apart- just waiting for my hubby to get home so I can take it outside and rinse it well before putting in the mineralized soil mixture.

AS is MESSY stuff- the walls of the tank are streaked in brown! And the water I pulled out looked like chocolate milk...


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## ColeMan (Mar 9, 2008)

I just recently killed off most of a nice, dense hairgrass carpet because of some clado, and at the moment the front, center of the tank is barren. Oddly enough, I haven't had any problems with clouding, even with my shrimp, BN and cories rummaging through the substrate. This was really surprising, because I _was_ in a hurry to get something else planted (fearing an AS induced dust storm of my own), but now I'm taking my time with a slow overhaul of the tank, feeling in no particular hurry since I'm, luckily, not experiencing any water clarity problems. I'm convinced that how AS will behave in any given tank is, for the most part, completely unpredictable...contingent upon so many different variables, that it might not actually be worth the expense - especially considering the success people are seeing with the mineralized, self-prepared substrates that have been gaining popularity as of late.

With your go-getter attitude there, ll, I was rather surprised to see you catch the AS fever...oh well, I guess you've got to try everything for yourself at least once (although maybe not anymore)...


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Yeah, I wanted to try it, see how it compared with Flourite, which is what I usually use...

I definitely won't be trying the Amazonia II again, and if this mineralized soil does well for me, I probably won't ever use anything else. 

I must say- it's a good thing I'm one of those girls who loves playing in the mud! Thought I don't think I'm ever going to get my fingernails clean...

My hubby has been amused of my trips to and from my office to the bathroom- each time covered in a new color and texture of mud LOL

I enjoyed the process, though- reminded me of making mud pies as a kid!

ATM I'm taking a quick "breather," but the substrate is all in, including the final CQ cap. :thumbsup:

All that remains now is planting, filling, and cleaning and restarting my filter.


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## PinBallAnnie (May 17, 2008)

I must say you have quite the stamina! And patience! Edifying to read the thread, and three months does seem long.

Good luck, and keep us posted with the new substrate--you've done a thorough test so it will offer some sort of clarity, in several senses, to see how it goes. Hopefully, at least.:thumbsup:


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> CQ T grade, not the sand.
> 
> I'm just waiting for it to get a bit warmer outside, since I've got to go wash it...


What is CQ T grade?


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## demonbreedr16 (Jan 10, 2008)

Colorquartz - Somthing (I don't know what the 'T' means"


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

demonbreedr16 said:


> Colorquartz - Somthing (I don't know what the 'T' means"


I found the gravel. Seems the T is for the type of grade. Where is this purchased?


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## demonbreedr16 (Jan 10, 2008)

I can't tell you....I've never bought any or considered. It seems a bit too expensive for my taste....


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I got mine from a local pool supply distributor.

You can locate a local store that carries it by going to www.3M.com.

Mine was about $28 per 50lb bag.

I like it; I like the color, I like the grain size, and I like the way it holds shape very well.


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## Cocobid (Feb 25, 2007)

Have you considered just pulling the DW and letting it leach in a bucket and allowing you tank to grow in. I have a piece that took forever in a bucket with constant water changes but finally......it gave me clear water. 
Was ordering some ADA Soil and during the course of the sale the subject of ADA Amazonia II came up. He descried this product as constantly melting....sounds just like what you are experiencing. A friend here just set a new one up with Amazonia and no issues. 

Love Purigen probably one of those great new things that only comes along ever so often. 
You are one patient person, good luck. 
I have a product that I would not use with Purigen, but used it to clear the water and if worked great. Made the tannins adhere to floss, ordered a bottle of online. Great stuff. Will get the name for you AM if you are interested.
Karen


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Well, the eventual plan for this tank does remain the same... but those plans are on hold for a bit now.

Currently the tank is just a temporary "housing" tank for all the fish and plants that were in m 46gal (which came down so my 90gal could move to the spot where it was)... and once the 46 is set back up, this tank will again become a QT tank for restocking my decimated 90gal... and THEN maybe I'll get to work on the Betta project again! :icon_conf

So now in the tank are all assorted plants, Amano shrimp, the albino BN pleco, and.... my P. weitzmani. I LOVE these fish. I wish my photography skills were better, but I managed to catch some of the males out displaying for each other this evening, and just wanted to show them off. :icon_mrgr





































And the lovely little pleco


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

What beauties! I have almost forgotten what it is like to keep fish! LOL


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

How about an update?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Nothing has changed at all. This tank is still a mass of assorted plants just thrown in (Najas of course is taking over), and the P. weitzmani love the fact they have thickets of plants to hide in all day; I mostly only see them at feeding time.

Now that the Bolivia trip is over and I'm back from my weekend in the Keys, my next projects are to clean up my office, clean up my 90gal, and then re-start the 46gal here in my office.

At this rate, it will probably after the Holidays before anything actually happens with this tank.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Soooo....

Change of plans.

I'm going to set this tank up at work! (Since I live there anyways, these days... lol)

Setup will be the following:

1x 24 watt T5HO (this Hagen Glo fixture- http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120477671102&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT)
Eheim Ecco 2234
200watt Hydor inline heater
Black Flourite

Stocking plans:
15x Green neon tetras 
6x Sidthimunki loaches
4x fancy Nerite snails

Plants:
Hygro angustifolia
Assorted Crypts

I've placed the Big Als order, which I expect will be in some time next week. So work may actually begin on this tank in just a few weeks!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> Change of plans.
> I'm going to set this tank up at work!
> Setup will be the following:
> 1x 24 watt T5HO


Just checking what you have been doing. For I find you so inspirational and knowledgeable. 

So the tank became a high tech tank with Co2 injected?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Well thanks for the compliment, Hilde!

No, the tank did not become high tech. As it turns out, I didn't put the T5HO fixture over it, though I think a single 24 watt bulb would still have left it in the low tech realm. Instead I am running one of the Coralife T5NOs over it, and here's the new thread: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/tank-journals-photo-album/95617-29gal-low-tech-tetra-tank-8-a.html


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