# Blue Green Algae - May it burn in Hades!



## Walking_Target (Jul 16, 2008)

Seriously. 


I have a 33g tank, 36"x12"x18" 

Lighting is 42w of T5, 1 6700k bulb and one 'colormax' 

I have done everything short of dosing my tank with EM powder to get rid of this stuff. several massive water changes, dosing Nitrate, 3-day blackout.... nothing seems to get rid of that emerald green slime!


Current tank residents are 7 Dwarf Puffers(C. Travancoricus) .

I should note, that I never had any problems till the DPs were added, water changes are frequent and they are not overfed (no food decomposing) but i keep getting BGA. 

Any ideas?


----------



## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Walking_Target said:


> Seriously.
> 
> 
> I have a 33g tank, 36"x12"x18"
> ...


If EM powder does not get rid of it, nothing will. When I had it in my 10 gallon, I dosed EM powder, it disappeared and never reappeared(Thank God).
For most EM powder will get rid if it, but I am beginning to read some horror stories where the EM powder is not having any effect for some. If that happens, the only thing that you can do is start over: new plants, new substrate, and dare I say RO water. I wonder if there is something in the tap water(bacterial spores) that are fuelling this stuff.


----------



## Walking_Target (Jul 16, 2008)

it's not in my other three tanks, and the water tests out the same way...

EM it is


----------



## Arakkis (Dec 7, 2007)

you can try any low dose of antibiotic.. oh wait nm, you're already going to try Erithro.


----------



## daverockssocks (Dec 1, 2008)

how is water flow in the areas where it is growing?


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Could the problem be from the excessive waste being produced by the puffers? Those look to me like they would be waste factories, but I have no experience with them. If this is the problem, would adding more plants solve the problem, by having still more ammonia eaters in the tank?


----------



## Arakkis (Dec 7, 2007)

the problem is that they are both having the characeristics of plants and animals


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Your title made me laugh out loud! EM is probably your best bet.


----------



## Walking_Target (Jul 16, 2008)

I have...

5-7 Vals

1 Big Amazon Sword

Buttload of Crypts (many small, couple large)

Ludwigia Sp. (lots)

Bacopa (lots!)

and at one point I had a metric butt-ton of Hornwort, but it was blocking light and became bogged down with some type of brown fuzz algae.

I'm injecting CO2 via DYI at roughly 1 bubble 3/seconds on average. (yes, plans are in the works to get a bulk tank and reactor settup)


----------



## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

FYI Im one of the horror stories. I still have it... stupid stuff. I hope you figure it out really i do. I would never wish this green slime from hell on anyone. 
Good luck to you and may your battles on this bacteria be won.


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

You have to remove as much of the BGA that you can
by vacuum, use a credit card turned long way to reach
all the way to base of tank while cleaning front glass.

Do a deep vacuum of this area if possible.

Use either a 3 day blackout with complete darkness, no light
at all-*none*.

or

You can use either EM or Phyton-Git to treat affected area/s,
by this point you have damaged the microorganisms of the system
by allowing the substrate to go anaerobic or parts of it which will
continue to spread unless treated/killed.

Make it a habit to keep the tank aerated by strong surface turbulence
at night to help prevent BGA by oxygenation/aeration, which improves
the water quality by giving the microorganisms that live in the substrate
and filter what they need to so they to can do their job of maintaining
a healthy environment for your aquatic plants and fish.


----------



## ZooTycoonMaster (Jan 2, 2008)

I think it's the stem plants that are "causing it". Since you have alot of them, I think they're absorbing the nitrates faster than you can dose them, causing the BGA.


----------



## DaveS (Mar 2, 2008)

ZooTycoonMaster said:


> I think it's the stem plants that are "causing it". Since you have alot of them, I think they're absorbing the nitrates faster than you can dose them, causing the BGA.


I think if that were the case you would see signs of nitrate deficiencies in those very plants, or at least in the other plants in the tank. How do the plants look besides being covered in slime? Are they growing well or have they been showing signs of deficiencies?

Dave


----------



## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

DaveS said:


> I think if that were the case you would see signs of nitrate deficiencies in those very plants, or at least in the other plants in the tank. How do the plants look besides being covered in slime? Are they growing well or have they been showing signs of deficiencies?
> 
> Dave


I am also not convinced that BGA is always due to low nitrates. When the BGA materialized in my 10 gallon, my nitrates were more than sufficient as tested using a calibrated nitrate test kit. Low nitrates may be a cause, but not the only cause and not always the cause of BGA. BGA has the ability to adapt and fix nitrogen from the air in the absence of low nitrates that is why it is alleged that low nitrates will trigger it.


----------



## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

EM is the way to go. I had a couple of breakouts last year and EM stopped it in its tracks. One of the ways I got it was possibly due to nitrate's bottoming out in my tank through neglect on my part. The other instance was due to what I believe to be an introduction of plants from an infected tank. In both cases, EM knocked it out within about 5 days. None of my livestock suffered by following the recommended dosages / treatments.


----------



## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

I had it, but it went away. I have no idea what I do (did) that causes any of the multitude of algaes that have plagued me. I think the plural of algae should be algi. Nor do I have any idea of what I do (did) that makes any of it go away. I am merely a victim here, existing only because the algae allows me to live.


----------



## Walking_Target (Jul 16, 2008)

Okay. Long, involved post below. 

1. My plants. 

I'm not really seeing much in the way of nutrient starvation. Substrate has been treated with Nutrafin '1 year' plant fertilizer stakes. all of my heavy root feeders are doing well with the exception of my Aponogeton madagascariensis, which is beginning to show some yellowing and 'holing' of the leaves, although the holing may be the fault of my Otocinculus cats. My Ludwigia is growing new shoots and my Bacopa is starting to show new growth. The bacopa was recently trimmed and replanted.

So, in the end, the Madagascar Lace leaf doesn't look 100% and a few of my crypts have yet to put out another new leaf. This is all after replanting and doing a trim on the crypt roots as part of that replanting. 

Why all the trimming/replanting? 

I pulled up all my plants, gave a peroxide dip, trimmed where trimming needed to be done, mixed the substrate up, scraped and manually removed all algae and added the fert stakes. then performed a 70% water change prior to re-scaping the tank. 


2. My algae. 

BGA is the big culprit. I also have brown fuzz algae which seems impossible to wholly do away with. There is also a small problem with green dust algae (not the same as green spot) on my glass. This is not nearly as much of a problem as my other issues. 


3. Ferts. I am waiting on my next pay check till i can order in dry ferts. I dose a mixture of liquid ferts (FloraPride, PlantGro, Flourish Trace) and have dosed Flourish Nitrogen for the past month. The nitrogen has had exactly zero impact on my algae problem. 

4. Surface Agitation. This has been done only by a power filter (Aquaclear 50) running at full throttle. If surface agitation really is the problem, would adding an air stone to the tank during the evening help at all?


----------



## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

manofmanyfish said:


> ...existing only because the algae allows me to live.


The same can be said for fish. Algae in some cases is by triggered by ammonia spikes. And algae are said to feed off the ammonia and neutralize it acting as kind of a biological filter to create some balance. That is good news for fish, especially in tanks with higher PH and temperature where ammonia may take a more toxic form. In a sense, then it can be said that in some cases, algae is indeed a necessary Evil. It may make your tank look like sh*t, but ultimately may be what keeps your fish from dieing if there is a sudden ammonia spike that you don't notice.


----------



## Walking_Target (Jul 16, 2008)

nope, daily ammonia monitoring since the algae outbreak. my first thought was a cycle crash, but the tests have all read rock-solid.


----------



## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Walking_Target said:


> 4. Surface Agitation. This has been done only by a power filter (Aquaclear 50) running at full throttle. If surface agitation really is the problem, would adding an air stone to the tank during the evening help at all?



The surface agitation (02) may be ok, but you may still need some more circulation in order to prevent stagnant areas. If the aquaclear 50 is the only thing creating circulation...I'd say you need more circulation.


----------



## DaveS (Mar 2, 2008)

Homer_Simpson said:


> I am also not convinced that BGA is always due to low nitrates.


I agree with you on that. I have had BGA in a few tanks, and low nitrates were never an issue in any of them. There are so many forms of cyanobacteria, it would be almost impossible to make a blanket statement as to the cause of any single outbreak.

Dave


----------



## Walking_Target (Jul 16, 2008)

low flow is definitely *not* the problem. I'm running a Hagen Elite filter as a powerhead (the one designed for small tanks, sometimes has been used to inject CO2) and i'm using a Rio powerhead attached to a DYI co2 reactor, these two are on opposite sides, in opposite corners to provide circular flow. 

Water movement is good, photo-period has been limited and the nitrates are good. 

I think i'm just gonna end up nuking the tank with EM.


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Not aerating the water can and will cause hypoxia which damages
the microorganisms in the filter media and substrate, it can and will
also cause BGA to form on plants and mainly the substrate.
around the front pane between glass and substrate which in turn
will cause the substrate to turn anaerobic which is unhealthy
for the entire system.

You will have to kill it to get shed of it, and to keep it away you
need 02/oxygen/aeration.

Give this a read. then do a search on Dead Zone./s

And this.

And this.

Knowledge is power.


----------



## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

Thats what im gonna try next. It sounds like im having the exact same problems as you. Your tank is also very very similar to mine with very similar dosing (PlantGro ferts).
What im doing is getting a powerhead ;my mom says she has one although its an internal filter that was for the turtle tank, and shes bringing it up tonight. It will provide more flow and surface agitation which will aid in the absorbtion of O2. I thought that by adding airstones in my tank it would work but aparently not.. well not really. O2 is difficult to diffuse into water unlike C02. Water needs to be constantly moving against the surface to churn (not splash) the water around or "circulate" it around the tank thus allowing O2 to diffuse into the water. The powerheads or filter move the water around the tank to different areas so specific bacteria can make use of it. Water movement is also important to get the ferts to every part of the tank. O2 is also very important for chemical reactions to take place in your tank. Many people forget that, and I am one of them. People tend to rely and focus on Co2 but forget O2.
Remember that Cyno HATES high O2 environments. Cyno is really a beneficial bacteria although unsightly. Cyno thrives in low O2 environments and it produces O2. It is one of the main reasons why we have O2 in our atmosphere. So if we have well oxygenated environemnts cyno will have no reason to grow or spread.

Im pretty well in the same boat as you and ive tried pretty much everything else OH!!! one more thing. Your tank is low light low tech correct? in this case everything happens slowly, thats just the way these tanks work so it may take a little while to see any improvement. Im going to start tonight AGAIN! and record my observations.
Good luck to you in your cyno battle.


----------



## ER9 (Aug 2, 2008)

BiscuitSlayer said:


> EM is the way to go. I had a couple of breakouts last year and EM stopped it in its tracks. One of the ways I got it was possibly due to nitrate's bottoming out in my tank through neglect on my part. The other instance was due to what I believe to be an introduction of plants from an infected tank. In both cases, EM knocked it out within about 5 days. None of my livestock suffered by following the recommended dosages / treatments.


do you have shrimp? i would love to nuke my tank but that would mean ripping it appart to get all my 10+ shrimp out. depressing consideration. is there an invert safe form of EM?


----------



## taekwondodo (Apr 16, 2006)

I get BGA almost like clockwork every three-four months. Generally when I start keeping _more_ nitrate in the tank than I normally do. 

When I have zero nitrates, no BGA. When I get out of being lazy and start dosing again (keeping NO3 between 10-15 ppm), a few weeks later (like clockwork) - it starts coming back. The odd thing is, it seems to be the _last_ algae I get when I'm getting my tank into really good shape. When all other algae dies off, and the plants start _really_ taking off - there it is again!

And I don't buy the flow or O2 arguments either. I've got at-least 3-4x flow in this tank than most have in their tanks... and the sat O2 (although unmeasured) is very likely pretty high with the flow and the surface agitation.

I just throw in some EM into the sump, and it's gone in a few days.


----------



## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

ER9 said:


> do you have shrimp? i would love to nuke my tank but that would mean ripping it appart to get all my 10+ shrimp out. depressing consideration. is there an invert safe form of EM?


I had an Amano Shrimp in my 10 gallon when I dosed EM and the Amano was not phased by it. And FWIW, I tested ammonia, nitrities, and nitrates before, during, and after EM dosing and there was no change. IME and contrary to popular belief EM will not throw your biological filter off or cause a mini-cycle.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> Not aerating the water can and will cause hypoxia which damages
> the microorganisms in the filter media and substrate, it can and will
> also cause BGA to form on plants and mainly the substrate.
> around the front pane between glass and substrate which in turn
> ...


I have this exact problem.. I am getting it between the glass and substrate.. some on plants and petrified wood. I added a maxi-jet 900 to the tank (powerhead) and I am running 2 xp3's on my 75 gallon. I did treat some areas of the front glass under the substrate with hydrogen peroxide. seems to have done some good.. but not all of it. I am afraid to do a 3 day blackout with my tank.. lots of hard plants to grow that I don't want to die.

if I took my powerhead and made a hardcore surface agitation, would this work? I don't want to use an airstone because of the catalina light fixture not having a plastic covering over the bulbs.

I also have some brown hair algae on quite a few of some of the leaves.. mainly the really small leaved stems like p stellatus narrow leaf. some of my cuba and broadleaf p stellatus.

any suggestions about that?

sorry for the thread hijack! 

btw I am using mineralized topsoil substrate.


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

taekwondodo said:


> And I don't buy the flow or O2 arguments either. I've got at-least 3-4x flow in this tank than most have in their tanks... and the sat O2 (although unmeasured) is very likely pretty high with the flow and the surface agitation.
> 
> I just throw in some EM into the sump, and it's gone in a few days.


Well keep using Maracyn then.
Flow and aeration are two entirely different things.



Torpedobarb said:


> I have this exact problem.. I am getting it between the glass and substrate.. some on plants and petrified wood. I added a maxi-jet 900 to the tank (powerhead) and I am running 2 xp3's on my 75 gallon. I did treat some areas of the front glass under the substrate with hydrogen peroxide. seems to have done some good.. but not all of it. I am afraid to do a 3 day blackout with my tank.. lots of hard plants to grow that I don't want to die.
> 
> if I took my powerhead and made a hardcore surface agitation, would this work? I don't want to use an airstone because of the catalina light fixture not having a plastic covering over the bulbs.
> 
> ...


Once you have BGA you must kill it, good aeration will keep it at bay.
This stuff stinks god awful and is nasty, but you know that.
Churn/impregnate the water with air in off hours.

The Dead Zone they speak of in the Gulf, I have been there, down south
in Biloxi, the beach stinks, the water is rancid and nasty.


----------



## paulm (Nov 10, 2008)

think i must have got lucky with a 4 day blackout in that case! i done a 40% water chagne and cleared as much as i could by hand then wrapped the whole tank in towels for 4 days when i went away. came back and no sign of any algae and its been 2 weeks now (fingers crossed)


----------



## Walking_Target (Jul 16, 2008)

yeah, I stopped CO2 injection in favor of using that powerhead to create a larger surface current and it has halted the BGA in its tracks. It's not going away, but it's not spreading much, if at all, either. 

I think that dosing EM will be the solution to wipe out what is already there, but in the long run, i believe that the use of aeration in the evening/night will be the solution to keeping it away.

My 3 other tanks may have algae, but no BGA; looking at them

10g is using a 'corner filter' powered by an air pump. 
2.5g is using a Whisper 3i powered by an air pump.
5.5g is using a Hagen Elite Stingray, which creates a pretty good surface current. 

I may once again be battling hair algae in the 5.5g and have green dust algae in the two others, but no BGA and no serious 'problem' algae types have surfaced. 


Now, I know that the general idea with planted tanks is to keep the surface fairly still so you don't loose alot of CO2, however... since I am using an Aquaclear 50, I have the option of picking up a surface skimmer attachment for about $8 from work, would this be a good idea?


----------



## taekwondodo (Apr 16, 2006)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> Well keep using Maracyn then.
> Flow and aeration are two entirely different things.
> 
> 
> ...


I think that BGA can exist and thrive in a variety of situations.

Many swear low-flow, not IME. I have two modified MJ1200s (korilla-like) on an alternating timer, one QO2000 feeding a closed loop, and an recent add of an XP4. I got lots of flow.
Some swear O2 - again, with the amount of ripple I have on my surface, I'm confident my O2 is fairly high.
Some are positive it's when NO3 levels reach very low levels - it only happens to me when I have 10+ ppm of NO3...

the point is, there could be many different things that enable it (as well as different strains that require different conditions to survive) - EM always takes care of it though.

- Jeff


----------



## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

I just want to let everyone know that i am finally starting to beat this BGA from hell. I repeat from an earlier post that nothing worked at all. I increased my GPH to 250 and i am starting to see the cyno go away. This is also coupled with stable tank conditions. I have ordered a Hydor K1 so i can remove the temporary filter and then my GPH will be at 400. It does seem that low 02 was my particular problem. 
I hope you find yours. Start by making sure your tanks params are all stable and increase surface movement and tank circulation. then leave it be for a week and see how it fares.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

I treated some of it by the glass and substrate area with hydrogen peroxide and it has seemed to have worked so far.. don't know if it will come back or not. I hope not!


----------



## galitz (Jan 6, 2009)

FWIW, I had a recent outbreak of BGA which I managed to beat in the following manner:


Increased temperature to 25C degrees
Changed my CO2/O2 system to inject CO2 during the day and put a large airpump on a timer to run at night
Sucked out as much BGA as I could with a siphon
20% water change
I only had to siphon once, and then the 20% water change. After another two days I noticed the remaining BGA dieing off. It is still with the tank, but in a very manageable volume.

The BGA outbreak happened when my primary heater failed. For a few days the temperature had decreased to about 18C (normally it is at 22C) and then it failed completely. Most tragically it failed while I was away and the temperature dropped all the way to 4C when I caught it upon returning after a few days. This is in spite of two heaters being on the tank.

I decided to increase the temperature after reviewing some journal articles about BGA and their optimum photosythensis temperature range. According to the journals I read it seems 20C is the topmost range of their optimum abilities.


----------



## DaveS (Mar 2, 2008)

galitz said:


> I decided to increase the temperature after reviewing some journal articles about BGA and their optimum photosythensis temperature range. According to the journals I read it seems 20C is the topmost range of their optimum abilities.


While I don't doubt that this worked for you, I have to believe those articles must have been referring to some very specific types of cyanobacteria. Cyano lives and thrives in many different temperature zones and conditions, including many warmer than 20C. I can speak from experience that the worst two outbreaks I have dealt with were at 26C and above. Conversely, I have never had a BGA problem in any of my unheated tanks, almost all of which run at temperatures under 20C.

Dave


----------



## ER9 (Aug 2, 2008)

DaveS said:


> While I don't doubt that this worked for you, I have to believe those articles must have been referring to some very specific types of cyanobacteria. Cyano lives and thrives in many different temperature zones and conditions, including many warmer than 20C. I can speak from experience that the worst two outbreaks I have dealt with were at 26C and above. Conversely, I have never had a BGA problem in any of my unheated tanks, almost all of which run at temperatures under 20C.
> 
> Dave


i have to agree with this. i have had my temps at 83deg for two weeks dealing with an ick outbreak and my cyano did just fine.


----------

