# Should I do a water change on my cycling tank?



## jeremyTR (Mar 21, 2012)

It's been going since March 18th and no water changes. Would it be okay to do one or better just to let it be? I had the ammonia spike already and now I'm waiting for nitrites to drop, it's hanging around 0.50 - 1.0ppm. The nitrate sits at around 5.0ppm


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

I would leave it alone until the cycle is complete.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

without critters in the tank I wait


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## jeremyTR (Mar 21, 2012)

wkndracer said:


> without critters in the tank I wait


Definitely without critters.

Thanks guys.


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

I do water changes while cycling but I fully stock my tanks from the start.


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## jeremyTR (Mar 21, 2012)

I wish I had fish or shrimp. I'm getting really impatient, I feel like doing a 95% water change and throwing some shrimp in there.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Are you keeping the ammonia up so the bacteria have something to eat? Keep it at around 3 ppm to grow the bacteria most efficiently.


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## shinycard255 (Sep 15, 2011)

Diana said:


> Are you keeping the ammonia up so the bacteria have something to eat? Keep it at around 3 ppm to grow the bacteria most efficiently.


+1 to this

Don't add anything into the tank until it the ammonia drop from 3ppm to 0ppm within a 12hr period


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## jeremyTR (Mar 21, 2012)

the ammonia went up to 1.0 ppm


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## shinycard255 (Sep 15, 2011)

Don't add anything yet then as the ammonia can cause harm to any living creature in there. (except for pond snails, I've seen those guys THRIVE in a 3ppm environment)

How far along the cycling process are you?


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

> the ammonia *went* up to 1.0 ppm


Are you controlling the ammonia or is there something in there adding ammonia? 

Maybe you had better describe exactly how you are handling this tank. 
What is your set up (tank size, filter, lights, substrate...)
Plants, other living things...
Chemicals added from the tap water parameters to fertilizers to dechlor... anything else?
What have you been doing to help the beneficial bacteria grow? Add ammonia? Add a starter culture of bacteria? A bottled product? (Which one?)

My next post is the Fishless Cycle. 
Read through it. It is the best way to cycle a tank. It grows the biggest population of bacteria, and grows it faster than any other method. 
The numbers have been tested by a couple of scientists who were looking for a way to cycle a tank in preparation for adding all the fish at one time, as in an African Cichlids tank.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

*Fishless Cycle*
You too can boast that "No fish were harmed in the cycling of your new tank"
Cycling a tank means to grow the beneficial bacteria that will help to decompose the fish waste (especially ammonia). These bacteria need ammonia to grow. There are 3 sources of ammonia that work to do this. One is fish. Unfortunately, the process exposes the fish to ammonia , which burns their gills, and nitrite, which makes their blood unable to carry oxygen. This often kills the fish.

Another source is decomposing protein. You could cycle your tank by adding fish food or a dead fish or shellfish. You do not know how much beneficial bacteria you are growing, though. 

The best source of ammonia is... Ammonia. In a bottle. 

Using fish is a delicate balance of water changes to keep the toxins low (try not to hurt the fish) but keep feeding the bacteria. It can take 4 to 8 weeks to cycle a tank this way, and can cost the lives of several fish. When you are done you have grown a small bacteria population that still needs to be nurtured to increase its population. You cannot, at the end of a fish-in cycle, fully stock your tank. 

The fishless/ammonia cycle takes as little as 3 weeks, and can be even faster, grows a BIG bacteria population, and does not harm fish in any way. 

Both methods give you plenty of practice using your test kit. 

How to cycle a tank the fishless way: 

1) Make sure all equipment is working, fill with water that has all the stuff you will need for the fish you intend to keep. Dechlorinator, minerals for GH or KH adjustments, the proper salt mix, if you are creating a brackish or marine tank. The bacteria you are growing need a few minerals. Make sure the GH and KH are at least 3 German degrees of hardness. 

2) Add some source of the bacteria. Used filter media from a cycled tank is best, gravel or some decorations or a few plants... even some water, though this is the poorest source of the beneficial bacteria. 
Bacteria in a bottle can be a source of these bacteria, but make sure you are getting _Nitrospira spp_ of bacteria. All other ‘bacteria in a bottle’ products have the wrong bacteria. (This step is optional. The proper bacteria will find the tank even if you make no effort to add them). Live plants may bring in these bacteria on their leaves and stems. 

3) Add ammonia until the test reads 5 ppm. This is the non-sudsing, no surfactants, no-fragrance-added ammonia that is often found in a hardware store, discount stores, and sometimes in a grocery store. The concentration of ammonia may not be the same in all bottles. Try adding 5 drops per 10 gallons, then allowing the filter to circulate for about an hour, then test. If the reading isn't up to 5 ppm, add a few more drops and test again. (Example, if your test reads only 2 ppm, then add another 5 drops) Some ammonia is such a weak dilution you may need to add several ounces to get a reading. 

4) Test for ammonia daily, and add enough to keep the reading at 5 ppm. 

5) Several days after you start, begin testing for nitrites. When the nitrites show up, reduce the amount of ammonia you add so the test shows 3ppm. (Add only half as much ammonia as you were adding in part 4) Add this reduced amount daily from now until the tank is cycled. 

If the nitrites get too high (over 5 ppm), do a water change. The bacteria growth is slowed because of the high nitrites. Reducing the level of ammonia to 3 ppm should prevent the nitrite from getting over 5 ppm. 

6) Continue testing, and adding ammonia daily. The nitrates will likely show up about 2 weeks after you started. Keep monitoring, and watch for 0 ppm ammonia, 0 ppm nitrite and rising nitrates. 

7) Once the 0 ppm ammonia and nitrites shows up it may bounce around a little bit for a day or two. Be patient. Keep adding the ammonia, keep testing ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. 
When it seems done you can challenge the system by adding more than a regular dose of ammonia, and the bacteria should be able to remove the ammonia and nitrite by the next day. 
If you will not be adding fish right away continue to add the ammonia to keep the bacteria fed. 

8) When you are ready to add the fish, do at least one water change, and it may take a couple of them, to reduce the nitrate to safe levels (as low as possible, certainly below 10 ppm) I have seen nitrate approaching 200 ppm by the end of this fishless cycle in a non-planted tank. 

9) You can plant a tank that is being cycled this way at any point during the process. If you plant early, the plants will be well rooted, and better able to handle the disruption of the water change. 
Yes, the plants will use some of the ammonia and the nitrates. They are part of the nitrogen handling system, part of the biofilter, they are working for you. Some plants do not like high ammonia, though. If a certain plant dies, remove it, and only replace it after the cycle is done. 

10) The fishless cycle can also be used when you are still working out the details of lighting, plants and other things. If you change the filter, make sure you keep the old media for several weeks or a month. Most of the bacteria have been growing in this media (sponges, floss etc).


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## shinycard255 (Sep 15, 2011)

Could not have said it any better myself, Diana! +1


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jeremyTR said:


> I wish I had fish or shrimp. I'm getting really impatient, I feel like doing a 95% water change and throwing some shrimp in there.


Why are you afraid to do a water change?


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## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

jeremyTR said:


> I wish I had fish or shrimp. I'm getting really impatient, I feel like doing a 95% water change and throwing some shrimp in there.


You know what's even worse than waiting for the tank to cycle? Throwing in some critters before it's done and having them die!


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## jeremyTR (Mar 21, 2012)

before I read that long post i'll explain how i did it and what i have and what im using.

i have a marineland biowheel penguin 200 filter, water is at 82F, there's no plants (right now) and I'm using sand substrate and i added the filter from my ten gallon into it but i left it in there not sure if im supposed to take it out or not? I guess it doesn't matter anymore right now. Also I'm using API's freshwater master test kit.

and the way i've been doing it is feeding the tank food everyday before i go to bed and when i wake up. i read you can add straight ammonia and so i went out and bought some but the only kind i found was western family and thought it would be okay to add but found out it wasn't (before adding any) so yeah, that's all i've been doing is feeding a tank and then testing it at least once every other day since march 18th. March 22nd is the first day the ammonia jumped to 0.25 by the 27th it was up to 1.0ppm and on the first is when it read NO ammonia at all. and the 30th is when i first saw nitrite and that shot up to 2.0ppm and after just testing both my nitrite and ammonia right now I'm still seeing NO ammonia and about 0.25ppm nitrite. Last night though before I went to bed I put a BUNCH of food in the tank (but still testing no ammonia and nitrite falling) but the water is cloudy.


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## jeremyTR (Mar 21, 2012)

houseofcards said:


> Why are you afraid to do a water change?


I'm not afraid to do a water change but if it's going to slow things down why would I?


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## jeremyTR (Mar 21, 2012)

also nitrate is around 5.0ppm


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## MangyMoose77 (Feb 19, 2012)

Diana, you are just everywhere in this forum!!  Your instructions are some of the best explained I have seen concerning fishless cycling. I am in the process of starting one myself and was looking for some clear and easy instructions. Thank you! I'll keep you posted on how it all goes.


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## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

Sounds like your tank is there, or nearly there. Once you can feed it and still sustain the 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and readable nitrates for a few days then you are ready to slowly start adding fish.


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## jeremyTR (Mar 21, 2012)

wendyjo said:


> Sounds like your tank is there, or nearly there. Once you can feed it and still sustain the 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and readable nitrates for a few days then you are ready to slowly start adding fish.


Well, with the amount of food I put in the tank last night I'm very very surprised that I didn't have my ammonia shoot off the charts. Although I didn't test in the morning and didn't get a chance to till around 5:30 I guess the ammonia could have went up then back down? My tank has a white haze in it though. Not sure what that's all about? I know it's because I dumped a ton of food in there last night but it's hazy and my water is still testing good?

I just checked my water for ammonia and nitrite again and still have no ammonia and I'm actually thinking that the nitrite is slightly lower than 0.25ppm mark. I'm guessing the nitrite will be gone in 2 days! Until then I'll keep feeding and when nitrite finally reaches zero, I'll do a water change, feed the tank and wait overnight and test the water once more!


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## MangyMoose77 (Feb 19, 2012)

Okay to spark another question/discussion. Carbon filter or no carbon filter on a fishless cycle? My thought would be no because most of the time those packets can contain the ammonia killing particles. (I can't think of the name of it now....basically kitty litter.) Wouldn't this pretty much negate any ammonia you are trying to accumulate in the tank?

As far as the cloudy water is concerned, I experience this on large water changes or at the beginning of a VERY large cycle start. It usually would indicate an "add no fish" situation. But obviously there are many variations to this and I am only speaking out of my experience.


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## jeremyTR (Mar 21, 2012)

I used the filter that came with the marineland so yeah, it has some carbon in it but it's not like it lasts forever, plus my ammonia already spiked to 1.0ppm but it was also only 1.0ppm not the 3.0ppm that that post said to get it to. That's why I added so much food. Pretty sure I shocked the system which resulted in the cloudiness and I already know not to add any fish, I just mentioned adding them because of lack of patience but i was never going to before the tank was ready.

My tank is looking gross right now though with all this brown algae crap and what looks like this green fungus or something gorwing from the sand. Maybe it's mold from all the food lol


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## CatB (Jan 29, 2012)

try testing your tap water for nitrates. i was wondering for the longest time, when my tank was cycling, why i had .25 PPM ammonia, 0 nitrItes, and 5 PPM nitrAtes. turns out, my tap water has 5 PPM in it to begin with. 
cloudy water is usually from a bacterial bloom, it CAN but doesn't always mean that your tank's almost cycled.

EDIT: assuming you use tap water. xD


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Cloudy water is highly likely from a bacteria bloom, but not nitrifying bacteria. It is from heterotrophic bacteria. These are good bacteria, but not N-cycle bacteria. They are more like decomposers. They will die off to match the lower levels of food when there are reduced food supplies. Yes, it was the large amount of food that you added. Heterotrophic bacteria will grow fast, and are not so particular about staying attached to things, so will grow in the water. 

The fishless cycle I posted was developed about 15-20 years ago, by some scientists who tried many variations and found those numbers, those levels of ammonia, worked best to grow the bacteria as fast as possible. They had a site that long ago, but it has long since been taken down. 
The original concept of the fishless cycle is so old it has no known origin. It pre-dates the cycle-in-a-bottle products, but there is no way to make money telling people to add the cheapest ammonia they can find to their tanks. 

Using fish food is a good method. Here is why:
THE source of nitrogen in a mature tank is NOT the fish. It is the food they eat. Protein in the food becomes ammonia, whether the fish eat it, or if they miss it, and bacteria decompose it. 
If you cycle the tank with MORE food than you will be feeding the fish, then you know the bacteria will be able to handle the load when you are properly feeding a reasonable fish load (with less food). 
The problem is that it takes a long time because the ammonia level does not rise very much. There is not a luxury amount of ammonia to grow the bacteria, so they grow more slowly. 

If you can find the right ammonia, use it. 
Otherwise, find the highest protein food that you can, and use twice as much as you will be feeding the fish. 

Do not bother doing a water change because of cloudy water. It will go away, soon. (few days to a week). 

Carbon is OK in a cycling tank, but the carbon-zeolite blend is not. Zeolite will remove ammonia. Until it is filled up there will be reduced food for the bacteria. Of course, once it is full it cannot take in any more ammonia, so you might as well leave it in there. It will become the home of more bacteria. Sigh... but then, once it is full of beneficial bacteria, and you remove it, you are depriving the tank of that bacteria, until more bacteria can grow. 
Best not even to use such products. Fill your filter with sponges and floss. Bacteria will grow well on sponges, and you are getting mechanical filtration. You can rinse and reuse sponges until they fall apart. And this takes YEARS, as long as you rinse them gently, no twisting and wringing, just some gentle squeezing and sloshing in water removed from the tank.


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## jeremyTR (Mar 21, 2012)

Thanks for all the information, Diana. I tested my water for ammonia again just now and I'm seeing it in the 0.50 - 1.0ppm range. So I thought I'd just keep raising it with food until it gets to around 3.0 like you were saying. And when you say to feed twice the amount you normally would to a tank of fish let's just say I fed....WAY more than that to the tank. So I'll just keep doing that.


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## jeremyTR (Mar 21, 2012)

My tank is soooo gross  Can't wait till this is over with. Ammonia is back up at around 1.0ppm but I'm going to continue to raise it.


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## brainwavepc.com (Sep 27, 2011)

I add bottled bacteria, wait 2 days, put fish in. I have 7 tanks e done this way and haven't lost any fish.

I test daily for 2 weeks and add ammonia/nitrite neutralizer stuff if either get over 2-3ppm


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## jeremyTR (Mar 21, 2012)

brainwavepc.com said:


> I add bottled bacteria, wait 2 days, put fish in. I have 7 tanks e done this way and haven't lost any fish.
> 
> I test daily for 2 weeks and add ammonia/nitrite neutralizer stuff if either get over 2-3ppm


You have fish in your tank while the ammonia gets up to 2-3ppm? Holy crap, poor fish.

Anyway I have my ammonia up to 2-4ppm right now. Now I'm just playing the waiting game.


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## brainwavepc.com (Sep 27, 2011)

jeremyTR said:


> You have fish in your tank while the ammonia gets up to 2-3ppm? Holy crap, poor fish.
> 
> Anyway I have my ammonia up to 2-4ppm right now. Now I'm just playing the waiting game.



Doesn't hurt most fish until it gets to a higher amount like 5ppm


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## brainwavepc.com (Sep 27, 2011)

jeremyTR said:


> You have fish in your tank while the ammonia gets up to 2-3ppm? Holy crap, poor fish.
> 
> Anyway I have my ammonia up to 2-4ppm right now. Now I'm just playing the waiting game.



It doesn't sit around 2-3ppm all the time. I monitor the amounts of ammonia and usually it is lower than that. If it gets higher then I use ammonia neutralizer. It works fine.


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## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

I disagree with that. They may not be dead but they are surely stressed out and it's probably weakening their immune systems and shortening their lives. Poor fish.


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## MangyMoose77 (Feb 19, 2012)

brainwavepc.com said:


> Doesn't hurt most fish until it gets to a higher amount like 5ppm


I apologize, but I have to disagree with this completely! Everything I have read and heard about fish and ammonia says that ANY level of ammonia over 0 ppm will effect your fish. Having ammonia levels around 2-4ppm may not kill your fish immediately, but has to do some irreversible damage to their systems! Hence the whole point of this thread discussion: How to properly cycle a tank with no ill effects to your fauna.


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## jeremyTR (Mar 21, 2012)

brainwavepc.com said:


> It doesn't sit around 2-3ppm all the time. I monitor the amounts of ammonia and usually it is lower than that. If it gets higher then I use ammonia neutralizer. It works fine.


You're wrong!

And you quoted me twice.

anyway, my tank is still really cloudy. I went out and bought a amazon sword and anubias(?) just for the hell of it and put them in there, no idea if they'll survive for any amount of time or not but I put an API root tab in there along with Aqeuon plant food (no idea if stuff is any good?)


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## jeremyTR (Mar 21, 2012)

My nitrite is off the charts! The purple is...extremely purple lol 5.0ppm+ ammonia is 4.0ppm+!


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## MangyMoose77 (Feb 19, 2012)

Regarding plants in a fishless cycle, your only concern would be that the plants would use the ammonia before the bacteria could consume it, thus possibly crashing your bacteria colony. 4ppm is pretty high, I doubt that the plants you are adding would be able to out compete the bacteria colony at this point. And the plants will help lower your nitrate levels, helping complete the last step of your cycle. All of this by theory, of course.

I would try it and see what happens.


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## jeremyTR (Mar 21, 2012)

I did about a 90% water change because the smell was just awful when you would walk into my apartment. It's still a little cloudy but the odor isn't nearly as strong. plus if I were to wait until that ammonia and nitrite all dropped off on their own I'd be waiting another two months it seems. The ammonia was deep forest green and a deep purple nitrite level.


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## jeremyTR (Mar 21, 2012)

My ammonia is back down into the 0.50-1.0ppm range while my nitrite is still really high


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