# Algae...again



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

My suggestion would be to put some plants into the tank. Yes I know there are some, but you need some substance. Get a bunch of Wisteria, some Watersprite, clumps of Javamoss, perhaps some Rotala and of course Hygrophila (I mean, real one with lotsa leaves and stems). The majority of petstores isn't a good source for this, you'd be much better off with an online vendor. You'll pay for freight, but the plants are cheaper, healthier, and the selection is unbelievable.
The more fast-growing plants you start with, the better you're off in battling algae. For some reason plants grow better in a jungle than in a naked one-here-and-one-there setting. :wink:


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

You can also ask around on the swap n shop for some "free" clippings if anyone is willing to send you some for a small amount. Had you posted this earlier I would have sent you some watersprite, H. leucocephala pennywort and some other stuff...but I just threw it all out :icon_frow


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## Creedog (Dec 17, 2004)

You up the ammount of light and the algae capitalizes on it, and any of the extra nutrients in the water. Wasserpest is right, as you need to get a few more plants in there that will eat these nutrients up and starve the algae.

Every post I have ever read on the subject of algae mentions ballance, which when you add extra light into your tank, you lose. 

From what I have read .5 to 1 ppm for PO is right where you want it, if it goes over 1ppm then you need to act. If you increase your plant load this should not be a problem to control.


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## equinecpa (Sep 23, 2004)

Thanks...I put a post in the swap and shop forum and should have some fast growers on their way to me next week. I hope I can starve the algae!

Carolyn


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## equinecpa (Sep 23, 2004)

I've got some fast growers on there way thanks to a Thom. Now when I get these should I dose my aquarium if my nitrates don't read high enough? What about potassium?

Carolyn


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## Kris (Feb 27, 2004)

hey there--
if you are interested, the DFWAPC will be meeting in feb and these people know their stuff. additionally, they have a very generous spirit and pretty much outfitted my tank last month. 
check out the website...
kris


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## equinecpa (Sep 23, 2004)

*Tank update...*

I added fast growers about 2 weeks ago and they are growing (I don't know if I would call their growth fast, but they are growing). Tank is still cloudy.

I decided Saturday I was going to get a handle on this. I did about a 50% water change. Tested for Nitrates and Phosphate. Nitrates read 0, Phosphate between 1-2 (color didn't really match anything on the strip). So I added some Phosphate sponge to reduce Phosphate and addded Flourish N03 to try to get my Nitrates up. I tested this morning still nil, so I added more. I'm dosing the beginner amount as per the bottle. If I keep on dosing will I eventually get a reading? And my test kit is good, I tested with two different kits and got the same reading.

My tank looked better after 50% water change but it is already getting cloudy again. Do you think I need to do the total darkness treatment on the tank to get rid of the cloudy water?

I also have DIY Co2 on the tank but never seem to get much increase in Co2 with it - I don't know if it's because my KH and PH are so high. Perhaps that makes buffering more difficult?

Anyhow if someone can point me in the right direction I'd sure appreciate it. Do I need to dose more N03 all at once (I've been cautious as I don't want to kill my fish).

Carolyn


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Hello Carolyn
Let's see if we can't get you straightened out here,
#1 throw out the phoshate sponge, a P04 reading of 1 or 2 is good, add more Nitrate 3x a week
add trace 3x a week on off days of nitrate,
50%water change weekly.
With the metal halide you had way to much light and not enough C02.
Your plants are hungry and not growing therefore water conditions are diminishing & algae move's in.
Plant's need Light & Nutrient's with added C02 more nutrients are required,
You plant's have a need to feed even if you don't have C02.
Read through this and see if it helps you understand a little more then shoot some more questions you may have..
This is a dosing regime for a 55 to a 75, a 30 is basically the same just reduce the amount's, I can help you with that when ready!
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showpost.php?p=117203&postcount=8


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## equinecpa (Sep 23, 2004)

*Can't get nitrates up?*

Ok. I'm doing great growing more algae, but I want to grow plants!

Like I posted previously I have decided enough is enough, the algae has to go!
I did a 50% water change last Saturday and have been adding Flourish N03 daily to bring up the Nitrates. I was adding 1/2 tsp a day, and have bumped it to 1 tsp a day (per the instructions 1 tsp should bump my nitrates by 10ppm).

I still have less than 10ppm Nitrate reading. Is it safe for the fish to add like 3 teaspoons at once? Do you think my plants are so nitrate starved that they (or the algae) are consuming the Nitrates I'm adding so rapidly?

Today I will do another 50% change and thought I'd go with 3 teaspoons, but alas I don't want to kill the fish.  

Also I should mention that it looks like I have greenwater, should I do the tank covering process? And then add nitrates after the covering period is over? Or should I try to work this out without covering...

Carolyn


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

3Tsp KN03 for a 30 hex is just a wee bit to much there girl..
You need a more disciplined regimen... read my post just above...

You probably need these ferts to
Plantex CSM+B 1lb. Price: $8.59
KN03 Potassium Nitrate 1lb. Price: $2.17
KH2P04 Mono Potassium Phosphate 1lb. Price: $3.42
K2S04 Potassium Sulfate 1lb. Price: $2.17\
www.gregwatson.com


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## Anthony (Jan 11, 2005)

Looks like my tank. First I had brown and hair algae everywhere added DIY co2 and it fixed that. Then green water came so I did a 3 day blackout, no more green water. Now 1 week later all the brown and hair algae is coming back. Tank is only 1 month old and it's my first planted tank, I guess growing pains. I'm working to balance it now that I have the required ferts.


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## ThomE (Aug 26, 2004)

3 tsp of KNO3 or flourish NO3 ... flourish = 10 ppm that's okay. here's a link to what I use to figure out my dosage. Its the best on the net IMHO ... 

My tank has minimal fish and lots of plants and for me, it does eat up 5-10 ppm on a daily basis.

If you mean covering the tank as in giving it a 24 hr black out, I don't think GW mind black outs.


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## Anthony (Jan 11, 2005)

Seemed like it worked for me. Water was crystal clear afterwards. More clear than the tank ever was or has been with no algae in site. CO 2 did get up to like 60 ppm, pH was at 6.0 or so. Plants for some reason grew huge under these conditions with no fish loss at all.


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## equinecpa (Sep 23, 2004)

Thanks Thom -that is a really neat fertilzer calculator -I've got it bookmarked. Tomorrow I'll do the water change and get the Nitrates where they need to be.
And then we'll see what happens. Hopefully I won't need a blackout.

Carolyn


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## Laith (Jul 7, 2004)

Careful there... 3 tsp of KNO3 in 30g is not 10ppm. It's 90!

3tps of Flourish Nitrogen is around 10ppm: different product.


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## equinecpa (Sep 23, 2004)

*Update...*

I'm thinking I'm winning the battle roud: My algae is not gone but my water is clearer. My parameters have improved tremondously and I want to check in with the experts...

Tank 30G Hex, Lighting 2x28w pc, diy C02 (not very effective)
Nitrates: 12.5
Phos: .5
Ph: Still at about 8.0

I have been dosing NO3 every second day to keep the above reading. I skipped the scheduled water change last weekend because my angels spawned on the glass. They have since eaten the eggs so I can go ahead with the water change.

Problem: There is still a lot of algae in the tank, most of it is probably old algae, some of it is hairy and some green/brown on the plant leaves and glass. How does one get the plants clean? Do you trim off algae covered leaves on plants like rotala, hygro and watersprite or do you try to rinse them as best as you can?

I'm planning on doing a 50% water change today or tomorrow so this would be my best time to scrub plants if necessary. Can I take them out of the tank or is that too disruptive for the plants? 
:icon_conf 

And what should my dosing regime be now that I have achieved balance?

Thanks, I know you guys will get me there!

Carolyn


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Just keep hacking away at it, prune preen the plant's trim affected leaves, remove as much algae manually as you can, keep at it, be persistant and you will win, keep the nutrient levels up.
What means of desolution do you have for C02? reactor? airstone etc.?


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## equinecpa (Sep 23, 2004)

I bought this Ebo Jager Air Diffuser 

I can adjust the size of the bubbles - I have it on small size but i just don't think the CO2 is getting into the water. Any recommendation on that? Should I try to position the diffuser so that the bubbles get trapped under a leaf or something? I have a sword that might just do the part.

Carolyn


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## equinecpa (Sep 23, 2004)

*Shroud of Darkness Initiated*

OK despite what I thought, the algae has come back with a vengeance. I blacked out the tank today -I'll try to kill the alge that way. Meanwhile I'll keep the water parameters up and in 2 or 3 days hopefully we'll have an unveiling...

Carolyn


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Adding CO2 with an air diffuser is like... can't come up with a good analogy. It is not efficient. As your pH tells you there is no CO2 dissolving in the tank to do your plants good.

Throwing fertilizer into a tank without CO2 will grow wonderful algae mats.

You need to decide which way you want to go, if medium light is your thing (2x28W) you should next tackle CO2 so your plants start to grow and take up all that fertilizer you are spooning into the tank :icon_idea 

If you go DIY CO2, it is very important to get a high percentage (100?) of the produced CO2 dissolved, or it won't work. Little or no surface agitation, tightly covered tank, etc, all to be verified by measuring pH and kH and make sure it is over 10 ppm so plants have something to chew on.

Easy enough to use two 3l soda bottles, T them together, and get the CO2 going. You need some sort of reactor, the Hagen ladder would suffice if there is good circulation in your tank, otherwise a little powerhead with a reactor to dissolve bubbles would do wonders.

On another note... I had black brush/beard/blue algae in my 10 gal tank for 3.5 months. I did all the right things. After that time it just disappeared and it is my clearest and cleanest tank now, don't even have to clean the glass anymore. Some things can't be fixed in a single week unless you spend a couple of hundreds to get everything up to optimal snuff. If you don't want to do that (press CO2 etc) and have no patience, you are facing an uphill struggle. Good things don't happen overnight in the planted tank world. :icon_bigg


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## equinecpa (Sep 23, 2004)

Actually a low light tank is what I desired and I was actually told that this would be pretty low light 2x28w over 30? Once the blackout is over should I just leave 1x28w pc over the tank? I could just remove a bulb.

I really didn't want to get into lots of dosing etc. but started dosing when I had algae problems.

*My goals*: An angel tank with some nice plants to complement them. I'm not out for major growth or anything. I have java fern, anubias nana, rotala, amazon, pennywort and hygro. If I could just keep the plants alive and healthy with minimal growth, I'd be happy.

Maybe I've been going about this all wrong. I'm starting fresh (hopefully) on Thursday (blackout is over then), can I get some direction PLEASE!!! Considering my goals, what plan of attack do I follow. I have just ordered macros and micros from Greg Watson but if I don't need them great, and if I do, I'll have them.

I have DIY co2 but I guess I need a reactor to make it work. But before I go buy that, I'd like to know if it is really required for what I desire. What would happen with 1x28w with no or minimal dosing? Could I achieve a balance? I didn't think C02 was really necessary until you got over 2 watts per gallon?

I have until Thursday to get this figured out. What do I need to do to achieve my goal above: A low light, minimal maintenance planted tank?

Carolyn


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Well if you want low light, then that's cool too, disconnect the C02, and shoot a little trace in the tank once or twice a week and you should be set, fish and fish food should be enough to supply the macro's.

When people start injecting C02 into thier tank, that's when most run into trouble, that's a balancing act, you have to learn the rope's so to speak.


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## Curare (Sep 15, 2004)

yeah, you have to learn the tight rope!

hehehehe

My housemate has the lowest tech planted tank in history, and the plants are growing wonderfully,slow but wonderfully.

Meanwhile yours truly has the all the bits and is fighting a constant war with algae!

GRRRR but, I'm winning


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## ringram (Jan 19, 2005)

equinecpa said:


> (clip
> Problem: There is still a lot of algae in the tank, most of it is probably old algae, some of it is hairy and some green/brown on the plant leaves and glass. How does one get the plants clean? Do you trim off algae covered leaves on plants like rotala, hygro and watersprite or do you try to rinse them as best as you can?
> (clip)


Actually, I had a ton of hair algae in my tank which I removed most of tonight. If you have any driftwood or rocks, you can work on those with a toothbrush. As for your plant leaves --> for the finer, more delicate plants, I would suggest to rinse them off and tear off the badly infected leaves. The tougher-leaved plants (anubias, java fern, etc) you can usually scrub off either with your thumb or a toothbrush without damaging them. Also, if you have a little hair algae left after this, that's not necessarily a bad thing. You may check into getting a couple SAEs(siamese algae eaters). They will help battle against it.


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## equinecpa (Sep 23, 2004)

Ok, well I want to go low light for a bit and see what it looks like. Should I disconnect one of the 28w bulbs and just leave 1x28 PC over the tank or is 2x28 ok even without CO2 and much dosing?

Carolyn


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I think 2x28W is a perfectly medium light tank, not high nor really low. I would keep both lights on it.

What you need to keep in mind is when someone suggests a list of fertilizers and daily dosing they assume high light and 30+ CO2 ppms. One without the other is no good. So let's forget about that for a little, since this isn't your goal.

If your goal is really low light, no CO2 and no ferts, one bulb should keep certain plants alive. It won't be a jungle but it might make you happy for a while until you are ready to move it up a notch. You won't need CO2 or fertilizer, although CO2 would still improve plant growth a tiny little bit, and a squirt of micro mix here and there wouldn't hurt either.

If you keep the two lights, you should get your CO2 going. See there is no exact line of 1.99W/g vs 2.0W/g when you "need" CO2, it depends on various things and is always a good thing for your plants. You would need to add small amounts of NO3 and K and micros and maybe PO4, but once or twice a week after water changes should be good. Remember it's all balance... more CO2 = faster plant growth = higher nutrient needs. 

I know it is confusing because everyone seems to suggest something different, and each tank and situation is different so in the end you'll need to figure out what works for you. 

Good luck! :fish:


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## Anthony (Jan 11, 2005)

I use the Hagen Ladder for DIY co2. I keep it directly below my filter outlet. I too ran into serious algae issues. As I increased my co2 levels the algae has dissapeared. I have a 37 gallon and use 3 gallon containers changing 2 per week. This mix works best for me: 2 liters h2o, 1 1/4 cups sugar, 3/4 tsp bread yeast, 1 1/2 tsp protein powder, 1/2 tsp baking soda, 2 tbsp honey. Pearling happens everyday, and co2 starts off at 45ppm and ends at 27 ppm(average) per day. Hope that helps with your co2 because I had hell starting mine.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

For the mean time you might consider Excel.

You can reach the goal either way or without CO2, but you will want to decide if you want to do more as far as cleaning prunuign etc and having your hands in the tank more.

Excel will increase the growth rates, non CO2 will require more patience.
But switching between Excel and non CO2 methods is very easy.

I'd suggest you use the Excel only in the beginning, get everything grown in as needed then back off once plant biomass is dense.

No water changes!
Just add enough to top the tank off. 
Plant densely! 

I'll give you a fert routine:

Feed fish well once a day
Add 1/4 teaspoon of SeaChem Equilibrium once every week or two.
If plants look slightly yellow or get holes, add more food or add a little KNO3(1/8 teaspoon) as needed.
Add SAE's, Amano shrimp(Angels will eat them) Otto cats etc.

Clean filter and prune little amounts every so often. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Kris (Feb 27, 2004)

Anthony said:


> I use the Hagen Ladder for DIY co2.I have a 37 gallon and use 3 gallon containers changing 2 per week. This mix works best for me: 2 liters h2o, 1 1/4 cups sugar, 3/4 tsp bread yeast, 1 1/2 tsp protein powder, 1/2 tsp baking soda, 2 tbsp honey. Pearling happens everyday, and co2 starts off at 45ppm and ends at 27 ppm(average) per day. Hope that helps with your co2 because I had hell starting mine.


how long have you used this recipe?
i have been following other threads and trying thier recipes, this is the most complicated i've seen. 
have you tested your co2 level? is it consistently high?
i am intrigued by the possibilities of this recipe, but not the frequency of the bottle-changes.
:icon_ques


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## equinecpa (Sep 23, 2004)

Wow...lots of good information here. I took off the garbage bag and the tank looks nice and clean. I definitely want to keep it this way. Here's the plan, can anyone tell me if I'm off base:

I don't have excel and the diy co2 I am using just doesn't seem to stay in the water so I am going to take one bulb out to go with just low light for now. (I'm going to look for a diffuser/ladder and see if I can find one locally or buy online when I need a few other things, then maybe go back to medium light). I'm supposed to do a large water change after the blackout am I not? That's planned for today. 

For now I'll dose just micros say 2x a week and watch plants for signs of nutrient deficiencies.

Am I missing anything here? Does this sound like an OK low light plant regime?

Carolyn


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Sounds fine till you get the DIY going well and or the Excel.
I have a DIY CO2 reactor that works great with DIY CO2.

See public archives.

www.BarrReport.com

You'll want to get going on taking care of the CO2 issue or perhaps go non CO2 if you want.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## equinecpa (Sep 23, 2004)

Arghhh!!!

I'm still getting algae. It's now 9 days since the unveiling. I did a 30% water change, and dosed once with micros (after the water change).

I just checked the following:
Nitrates 12.5ppm
Phosphates: <.5ppm

OK, folks how come I'm still getting algae? Aren't these readings about what I want? What part of this am I doing wrong? I've got algae growing on the glass and the water is hazy.

I did buy a hagen co2 ladder, but haven't got it going yet. Should I get the C02 going? I thought I'd try without since I theoretically shoulnd't need it (1 wpg )

Fish are quite happy, Angels have spawned for the 2nd time in 3 weeks.

Please help me get this on track.

Carolyn


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## equinecpa (Sep 23, 2004)

any suggestions?


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## ThomE (Aug 26, 2004)

Well, the good new is the fish are happy  

Let’s work on the second part, GET CO2!!! :hihi: Sorry, Just pointing something out. Without CO2, the Algae will get the advantage even at low light (Flourish Excel gives the plants carbon that they can absorb instead of CO2). Nitrates/ phosphate are only part of the equation for no algae.

While, waiting for the ladder, I would get a batch of yeast going. It took me about 2 days to start producing bubbles, so you could cut off sometime there.

Oh yeah, at any WPG, CO2 is good to add. Algae will attack a .5 wpg tank, it just takes a little more time for it to get established.


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