# Paraguard ok?



## JoeRoun (Dec 21, 2009)

*1 Step at a Time*

Hi,

Can you tell us about your tank? Water parameters, (temperature, pH, KH, GH, tap water, water changes), critters, plants so on.

Tell us if you will, what is ailing your fish. Are they pooping? What does the poop look like? Lethargic? Have you perhaps cut any open? No, didn’t think so. Anything hanging off the fish? Any blotches? Anything abnormal (focus on mouth, eyes gills, scales, fin, anus)?

Nothing jumps out at me about the ParaGuard, it is a supposedly safe aldehyde based (10% by weight), malachite green and “fish-protective” polymers for parasite control. Safe must mean the “aldehyde” is not Formaldehyde.

I do not recommend dosing for the sake of dosing; let us try to figure out what is going on.

Respectfully,
Joe
FBTB


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## Farm (Sep 23, 2014)

Aside from all of those perfectly good questions that will rule out what you are trying to treat.... as not all things treat everything right? Your question is about Paraguard. Yes, I have used it and as a general use medication for catching "some" problems I have had great luck with it and no harm has come to my fish. It is not marketed as plant or invertebrate safe as they have too many potentials to test for I believe I read but they have not had reports of it hurting plants (it did not hurt mine) and it has no copper in it. They recommended dosing at 1/2 strength and observing then increasing if no complications. I read this on their site. My Nerites survived. Hope this helps.


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## All4Fish (Jun 23, 2014)

JoeRoun said:


> Hi,
> 
> Can you tell us about your tank? Water parameters, (temperature, pH, KH, GH, tap water, water changes), critters, plants so on.
> 
> ...


Hi, all water parameters (0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 0 nitrates) are good other than pH rising in pm; added airstones and doing water changes with RO mix, pH is now 7.4, dKH 3, dGH 11. Regular water changes. No previous visible signs of disease until last one, harlequin raspbora, which had a white fungus on his mouth, removed him, treated, but died. No others have had fungus since (it's been 6 days), but another harlequin died very quickly today after doing the crazy upside down swim. So researched and maybe columnaris, swim bladder issue? Remaining fish are 1 furcata, 2 harlequin raspbora, 7 rummy nose, 5 cory. Have lost furcata and harlequins. All eating and seem fine except another harlequin now hanging out by himself, lethargic. Sorry so long, trying to provide all info I can. Tank has been cycled for about 6 weeks, fish were added slowly. Any help! ??

Bump:


Farm said:


> Aside from all of those perfectly good questions that will rule out what you are trying to treat.... as not all things treat everything right? Your question is about Paraguard. Yes, I have used it and as a general use medication for catching "some" problems I have had great luck with it and no harm has come to my fish. It is not marketed as plant or invertebrate safe as they have too many potentials to test for I believe I read but they have not had reports of it hurting plants (it did not hurt mine) and it has no copper in it. They recommended dosing at 1/2 strength and observing then increasing if no complications. I read this on their site. My Nerites survived. Hope this helps.


Yes, thank you! However, I guess I am second guessing what to do next.


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## mattinmd (Aug 16, 2014)

Did you ever end up working out the pH swings you were having?

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=757178&highlight=


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## All4Fish (Jun 23, 2014)

mattinmd said:


> Did you ever end up working out the pH swings you were having?
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=757178&highlight=


Hi, I am not totally sure, but I have been doing water changes with RO mixed in (to a ratio with the desired KH and pH), added a circulation pump and so far so good. I am trying to sort through which issue is causing the most damage right now. The pH swing could have weakened the fish, right? Could I also have introduced a pathogen (?) in some java moss (I am not sure I trusted the source)? So frustrated and I thank everyone for all the help. Just want to get through this.


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## mattinmd (Aug 16, 2014)

Usually pathogens have distinctive physical and/or behavioral signs..

Physical: bloating, worms hanging off the fish, white spots, red spots, stringy poop, etc, etc..
Behavioral: flashing, labored breathing.

I certainly would stop the ich medicine and melafix, they aren't doing your fish any good. All medicines carry some risks, so dosing medicines that don't treat your problems can only do harm.

If you had ich, your fish would look like they'd been sprinkled with salt. It is very distinctive and hard to miss except on white/platinum fish (and even those it is usually seen on their fins). Yes, it is possible to have low-level ich infections hidden inside the gills.. but if it was killing fish left and right you'd see spots everywhere.

Melafix treats mild external bacterial infections. If you don't see sores or other signs of bacterial infection, cuts or scrapes on your fish, this isn't doing them any good. Think of it like an antiseptic wound spray for fish...

I would spend some time looking closely at the fish.. watch them, look for oddities.


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## All4Fish (Jun 23, 2014)

mattinmd said:


> Usually pathogens have distinctive physical and/or behavioral signs..
> 
> Physical: bloating, worms hanging off the fish, white spots, red spots, stringy poop, etc, etc..
> Behavioral: flashing, labored breathing.
> ...


Hi again, thanks for this information. I have been trying to study them, no signs of ich, no flashing, no worms, no poop. The ones that died had been lethargic, labored breathing, hanging out alone or at top of tank for a day before. Harlequins looked like they had bloating. So now what?


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## JoeRoun (Dec 21, 2009)

*I Wish I Had Better News...*

Hi,

Oops, pH swing… I wish I had better news…

Stabilize pH, aerate, you may be having secondary infections, if critters survive they will always be susceptible to infections and may get something going that will infect future critters.

You cannot add salt do to the Corys, best you can do is stabilize pH, heavy aeration and keep the temperature steady, including water change. Watch for secondary infections, isolate and if necessary, euthanize.

You may continue to lose fish 2-3 weeks after pH and temperature are stabilized. If these were Tetras, for instance you would lose them all in 2 weeks or so even though everything seems fine.

Respectfully,
Joe
FBTB


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## All4Fish (Jun 23, 2014)

JoeRoun said:


> Hi,
> 
> Oops, pH swing… I wish I had better news…
> 
> ...


UGH, thanks, I guess! I kept testing the pH every morning and it was always stable, then on a whim, I tested at night and wow! Guess I learned the hard way. 
Other than RO water changes, is there a better way to keep pH stable? I try to focus on stable KH, but that backfired on me. 

I have had rummynose in the tank for 1 month and no losses! Go figure. 

So should I use a probiotic like Voogle just to help fend off anything? And what meds should I have on hand just in case I see fuzz, bloating or erratic swimming again? I realize these may be 3 different things, but I am trying to be prepared. Thanks again!


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## Farm (Sep 23, 2014)

All meds do have a shelf life but I keep a few on hand. I like Kanaplex (drsfostersmith), Paraguard. That is all I keep. I have always been the advocate of multiple water changes. I use RO water mixed with 11 oz. of my well water per gallon brings my tanks to exactly where I want to be. Plus Prime of course. We have super hard water..... chewable!  I hold my ph at 7.2 with minor water adjustments here and there. I was wondering if some of this fish you had were perhaps already a bit compromised and with your ph fluctuations they could not tolerate the changes as well as the healthier Rummynose?


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## All4Fish (Jun 23, 2014)

Farm said:


> All meds do have a shelf life but I keep a few on hand. I like Kanaplex (drsfostersmith), Paraguard. That is all I keep. I have always been the advocate of multiple water changes. I use RO water mixed with 11 oz. of my well water per gallon brings my tanks to exactly where I want to be. Plus Prime of course. We have super hard water..... chewable!  I hold my ph at 7.2 with minor water adjustments here and there. I was wondering if some of this fish you had were perhaps already a bit compromised and with your ph fluctuations they could not tolerate the changes as well as the healthier Rummynose?


Could be as my LFS has quarantined and treated the rummynose before I got them whereas they did not do this for the harlequins and furcata. They said these were super hardy fish and I should have no problems!! HA - I think I will have them hold all fish for 2 weeks in the future to be sure.


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## JoeRoun (Dec 21, 2009)

*pH swings in transit are dangerous as well*

Hi,

This pH swing is a hard one, especially since pH swings caused by CO2 do not seem to cause the problem. 

If all the fish dying of this were purchased at the same time, it is quite possible the pH swing occurred in transit. There is a reason so many non-religious leaders tell folks not to allow pH movement greater than pH 0.25 or so per day, the religious leaders like to preach quick fixes and one act is not related to another. The problem is that even small pH swings can weaken immune systems and allow opportunistic pathogens strike weeks or months later. 

One of the most common things we hear are people talk about buying Tetras (Cardinals in particular) saying they have a whole group dying a week or two after purchase, pH swing in transit is the most likely cause. Then someone will jump in saying it is something that just happens every so often…

I would not use any treatment without a definite idea of what you are treating. All of these medication effect the system in some way. Treating critters prophylactically during quarantine is better than treating the entire tank.

Respectfully,
Joe
FBTB


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## Farm (Sep 23, 2014)

If that is what made the Rummynose so much stronger then I would agree with you. I am a firm believer in partial water changes, large ones.... when my fish begin to act peculiar. I know this in itself does also affect the water chemistry of your tank, and I am also here to learn so keep that in mind! But....  I have been fairly successful with this method and rarely have needed medications (knock on my driftwood). I am not a planted tank person I am only learning, although I do have many plants growing successfully..... it is more out of luck than intention. I do not have the complexity of what I am sure you do with cO2 etc. Sorry for your fish loss. I guess I would ask these nice people about medicating before putting any in your tank. If this were a child you cannot treat head lice with an aspirin it needs a specific med. Hang in there. I would like to hear how this turns out. Wishing you the best.


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## All4Fish (Jun 23, 2014)

JoeRoun said:


> Hi,
> 
> This pH swing is a hard one, especially since pH swings caused by CO2 do not seem to cause the problem.
> 
> ...


Hi, re-reading and thinking about your comments. You mentioned a pH swing causing problems down the road; my LFS keeps all fish in RO and does not know their water parameters. I am very careful about acclimating when I get them home. Could this be an issue that is compromising the fish? There is no solution to this that I can think of.


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## Farm (Sep 23, 2014)

If fish are kept in pure RO then their are no ph buffers in the water at all. Unless you mean they are using buffer additives of some type? Sorry to sound dense I am just curious. How are your fish doing now?


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## All4Fish (Jun 23, 2014)

Farm said:


> If fish are kept in pure RO then their are no ph buffers in the water at all. Unless you mean they are using buffer additives of some type? Sorry to sound dense I am just curious. How are your fish doing now?


RO water needs to be remineralized if used straight up (SC Replenish) ; right now I am doing a mix of RO/filtered as Diana recommended, to reach desired GH of 5, add baking soda to match KH, aerate and using this for water changes. (RO has O GH and KH, but my filtered water adds back in the minerals). So far all fish doing better and no losses. Hope this makes sense and helps! And I hope it works as a basic approach from now on!


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

I've not used this on nerite snails, but got the product because I was assured by other forum members here that is is invert and plant safe. I have used it recently on some cory I got that went through 10g quarantine for a week with it (then moved to a large qt tank with sand after medications before they go to the community tank) 10g is sued for treatment as I don't care is the stuff stains (it can stain silicone, rock, and wood) the silicone in that tank. I lost 2 fish in the first few days but I think its because they were pretty much crushed by a moron employee at petsmart who was too stupid to (and too stubborn to take advice to) remove large rock decor from the tank to catch fish.. pushed the rock all over trying to get the cory and killed at least 2 otos and a tetra doing it...Anyways I ramble, did a 7 day treatment of paragaurd, no one seemed stressed from it, and the 6 surviving cory are happy in the 20g right now.


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## Farm (Sep 23, 2014)

Poor cory, tetra and oto! What an idiot. I really like using the Paraguard when I get new plants as well as a soak. 

On the RO water YES! Got it. I am bad with wording. I run RO in all my tanks and add back in my very hard water to a certin point (11 oz) per gallon) yhay provides me with my desired balance in my tanks. Always a balancing act right?


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