# Ultimate Nano-Fish Food Combinations



## NickAu (Feb 24, 2017)

Great idea on the pill crusher, I use a Pepper grinder.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

NickAu said:


> Great idea on the pill crusher, I use a Pepper grinder.


Not a bad idea either, do you grind it only as needed? Sounds like a great way to keep your food fresher, just grind off a little over the surface as needed like a garnish haha.


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## NickAu (Feb 24, 2017)

> do you grind it only as needed?


Yes I do.


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but in effect your grinding and mixing two fairly common commercial dry fish foods to make your own special blend of dry fish food. No frozen food, no fresh foods, or live foods. 

I just can't see how that is very much different from someone that always feeds their fish Tetramin flakes. If you ate your favourite meal all the time no matter how good it was you'd get tired of it.

Also, consider that the vast bulk of tropical fish information on feeding have recommend a wide variety of foods for about the last 75 years. 

If you really want "... to feed my fish the best food ..." add some decent frozen foods to their diet. If you want to take the further, make your own frozen foods using small amounts of various uncooked shellfish from the seafood counter. To go to the extreme level consider culturing micro worms and/or white worms. 

You might be doing ok with what your feeding, but in my opinion you are currently leaving plenty of room for improvement. Your fish will do a lot better too with a better diet. They will thank you for it.


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## bigbadjon (Aug 6, 2015)

Everybody thinks that because they feed a variety of frozen foods that their fish are healthier and happier. They are also wrong. A staple pellet like NLS is superior to live or frozen foods without question. In nature fish starve and do without proper balance frequently, pellets are better than anything found in the wild.


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## NickAu (Feb 24, 2017)

DaveK said:


> I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but in effect your grinding and mixing two fairly common commercial dry fish foods to make your own special blend of dry fish food. No frozen food, no fresh foods, or live foods.
> 
> I just can't see how that is very much different from someone that always feeds their fish Tetramin flakes. If you ate your favourite meal all the time no matter how good it was you'd get tired of it.
> 
> ...


I agree.

I feed my fish a variety of food including fresh live, NLS pellets are a good quality pellet but you cant beat fresh.

I breed Red Cherry Shrimp for my Bettas to hunt, I also breed maggots, mosquito larvae, small earth worms, and even give them live guppy fry, they never eat the same thing 2 feedings in a row, I also prefer to feed 2 smaller portions a day than 1 a day. 

When feeding guppy fry I just dump about 12 into the tank and let the girls do the rest.

Same for the big tank, My Clown Loaches love fresh earth worm, fresh killed Red Cherry shrimp, maggots, and zucchini.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

I am not doing this for the enjoyment of the fish I am doing it specifically for their health. The wide variety of foods you speak of from the last 75 years well...have you read the ingredient list on NLS? It contains probably the largest variety of foods in a single pellet. Likely all the foods you mentioned in a dried-nutrient dense form. 

All my research says frozen food is just junk food, treats, with poor nutritional value. It also points to pellets being the most nutritional, why do you think reef tank keepers feed frozen or flake rather than pellets? Because pellets are the most nutrient dense form of food which spoils their water. I need all the nitrates from food I can get, my tanks run down to 0-nitrate literally 5 days after dosing.

Breeding RCS for your Betta to hunt is a BAD idea unless they are in a separate tank, RCS in a Betta tank is a never ending buffet and they end up dying from overeating. I used to keep them together since I had so many RCS I did not know what to do with them, he never stopped hunting and soon died from it.+

Many of you are overlooking the fact this thread title is NANO FISH, as in...they can literally eat almost nothing but powder...think about this before you make live and frozen food suggestions.


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## MChambers (May 26, 2009)

I'd be tempted to buy high quality flakes, like those from Cobalt, or Aqua-Pharm micro pellets (if you can find that anywhere). Both have probiotics and also wouldn't require grinding. Or you could order some Golden Pearls, in one of the bigger sizes.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

I recently found out about NLS flake food, and was going to try crushing some of that up by hand. I will look into your suggestions, probiotics sound like a plus...I use them myself!


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## NickAu (Feb 24, 2017)

Like I said NLS is a quality pellet 



> I need all the nitrates from food I can get, my tanks run down to 0-nitrate literally 5 days after dosing.


I dont care about plants, Its the welfare of the fish that comes first.



> Breeding RCS for your Betta to hunt is a BAD idea unless they are in a separate tank, RCS in a Betta tank is a never ending buffet and they end up dying from overeating. I used to keep them together since I had so many RCS I did not know what to do with them, he never stopped hunting and soon died from it.+


Not quite
All my Bettas have shrimp in the tank and its not a problem. The only thing the Betta in the video is in danger of is being eaten by the shrimp.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ2Mmz0ka2A


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

NickAu said:


> I dont care about plants, Its the welfare of the fish that comes first.
> .


You realize the best foods make the best fertilizers right....more nutrients in the more out; food that drives nitrates up faster is more nutrient dense.


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## NickAu (Feb 24, 2017)

For those who have never seen a Betta eating live food watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTE2MXbB1bw

I just make sure the live food I feed is healthy and usually gut loaded with Spirulina algae, Next time I feed live guppy fry I will get a video.
.


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

bigbadjon said:


> Everybody thinks that because they feed a variety of frozen foods that their fish are healthier and happier. They are also wrong. A staple pellet like NLS is superior to live or frozen foods without question. In nature fish starve and do without proper balance frequently, pellets are better than anything found in the wild.





Teebo said:


> I am not doing this for the enjoyment of the fish I am doing it specifically for their health. The wide variety of foods you speak of from the last 75 years well...have you read the ingredient list on NLS? It contains probably the largest variety of foods in a single pellet. Likely all the foods you mentioned in a dried-nutrient dense form.
> 
> All my research says frozen food is just junk food, treats, with poor nutritional value. It also points to pellets being the most nutritional, why do you think reef tank keepers feed frozen or flake rather than pellets? Because pellets are the most nutrient dense form of food which spoils their water. I need all the nitrates from food I can get, my tanks run down to 0-nitrate literally 5 days after dosing.
> 
> ...


NLS sure gets a lot of hype. I honestly can't see why it's better or worse than any other pellet fish food. 

Ok, if you really think pellets alone are the pest possible fish food, please point me to some serious information on this. I'd like to learn. However don't point me to vendor or manufacturer sites, as these are not unbiased sources.

As for SW reef systems, I feed pellets to my reef fairly often. I'm not saying they are a junk food, just that they are not a perfect solution when used alone. SW reef keepers feed other foods for a number of reasons. Some fish just will not touch any dry food no matter how good it is for them. Others need diets best supplied by foods other than pellets. Pellets will not "spoil the water" or cause algae issues in a reef system unless you really overfeed them, but then any food will do that.

As for frozen foods, yes some are of limited value. Frozen brine shrimp comes to mind. Other are excellent. This depends a lot on the individual food. 

As for needing nutrients from the fish food or fish droppings, I'd say you need to alter your fert dosing so you don't run out of nutrients so quickly. 

On nano fish, just about anything as large or larger than a full grown neon can handle white worms. Just about anything past the fry stage can handle micro worm. Fresh seafood can be cut or ground to any size you like. Even my small tetras and rasboras can easily handle the small pellets. It's not going to hurt anything to grind it all down to fine dust, but it's not needed.


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## bigbadjon (Aug 6, 2015)

How about you show us a live or frozen food that is as balanced or nutritious as a pellet? It doesn't exist.


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## NickAu (Feb 24, 2017)

How about you show us where wheat flour, bio-chemical colour enhancers and soy are part of any fishes diet.




> NLS sure gets a lot of hype. I honestly can't see why it's better or worse than any other pellet fish food.


Its better because it uses less fillers.
All fish food is not equal.
You may want to read this.
http://www.oscarfish.com/fish-food-ingredients.html


If you look at the star ratings for fish food on that page you will see why some fish food is just plain old junk. 

I would never feed this garbage to my fish.


> Ocean Nutrition Formula Two Flakes Ingredients Analysis
> 
> The primary ingredient is Dried Fish Solubles, a by-product of fish canning and fish oil industries. During the processing of fish to recover the oil fraction a mixture of water and oil is produced. Then after this mixture is centrifuged to remove the oil the water containing fraction can then be condensed or dried to produce condensed fish solubles or dried fish solubles. A source of protein but may not be well digested. Again, we would rather protein come from actual aquatic meat products, not by-products.
> 
> The second and third listed ingredients are "Wheat" products. Splitting wheat into two different products may result in wheat being listed lower in the ingredient list than the actual overall wheat content justifies. In reality, wheat may be the first ingredient.


http://www.oscarfish.com/1-star-foo...-formula-two-flakes-ingredients-analysis.html

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## bigbadjon (Aug 6, 2015)

I've fed nothing but NLS for years and it gets the hype because it was the first complete fish diet.


I got these fish in fall of 2015 when they were 3/4 of an inch long. They have been fed nothing but NLS pellets in my care. No live or frozen or fresh foods. If something is lacking from there diet I don't see it.


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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

lol, I don't think I would throw my fish on a paper towel! lmao, "it absorbs"

100 percent agree with @NickAu on his fish food statements. Fish food is not equal, thus if it where than there would only be one seller correct? exactly. NLS is just more of an, I don't want to say organic because practically no fish food is certified organic, but its healthier and less chemicals (if any) are involved in the production of such product


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

I still think people here are not reading the CONTENTS of their pellet food, as I see people listing the composition of crap pellets which is biased. *There is a reason NLS lists a guaranteed analysis:*

Crude Protein	38.0% min.
Crude Fat	7.0% min.
Crude Fiber	5.0% max.
Moisture	10.0% max.
Ash	8.0% max.
Vitamin A	8,000 IU/kg min.
Vitamin D	2,500 IU/kg min.
Vitamin E	200 IU/kg min.



DaveK said:


> NLS sure gets a lot of hype. I honestly can't see why it's better or worse than any other pellet fish food.
> 
> Ok, if you really think pellets alone are the pest possible fish food, please point me to some serious information on this. I'd like to learn. However don't point me to vendor or manufacturer sites, as these are not unbiased sources.


START READING FOOD CONTAINERS! 

*NLS INGREDIENTS:* Whole Antarctic Krill, Whole Fish, Whole Wheat Flour, Ulva Seaweed, Chlorella Algae, Garlic, Beta Carotene, Spirulina, Omega-3 Fish Oil, Alfalfa, Scallops, Wakame Seaweed, Spinosum Seaweed, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Folic Acid, Biotin, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Calcium Pantothenate, L-Ascorby-2-Polyphosphate (Vitamin C), Choline Chloride, Ethylenediamine Dihydroiodide, Cobalt Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate and Manganese Sulfate

*'OTHER BRANDS' INGREDIENTS:* Not listed on container = something to hide.



DaveK said:


> As for SW reef systems, I feed pellets to my reef fairly often. I'm not saying they are a junk food, just that they are not a perfect solution when used alone. SW reef keepers feed other foods for a number of reasons. Some fish just will not touch any dry food no matter how good it is for them. Others need diets best supplied by foods other than pellets. Pellets will not "spoil the water" or cause algae issues in a reef system unless you really overfeed them, but then any food will do that.


BRS specifically says in many of their videos that pellets are less of a desire among reefers due to their high density of nutrients and ability to foul the water at a much higher rate than flakes or frozen foods. 



DaveK said:


> As for needing nutrients from the fish food or fish droppings, I'd say you need to alter your fert dosing so you don't run out of nutrients so quickly.
> 
> On nano fish, just about anything as large or larger than a full grown neon can handle white worms. Just about anything past the fry stage can handle micro worm. Fresh seafood can be cut or ground to any size you like. Even my small tetras and rasboras can easily handle the small pellets. It's not going to hurt anything to grind it all down to fine dust, but it's not needed.


Altering nutrient dosing is not the only solution, you can also balance the bioload of your tank so that as the plants demand for nutrients rise so does the ability to house more fish given the space requirements. It is a more natural and challenging approach to this hobby.

My mature Embers are not capable of consuming a .5mm granular, they grab it from surface and spit it out repeatedly until they reach the substrate then start over with a fresh surface pellet....wasting food which makes my shrimp lazy and they stop cleaning the plants. So yes it is needed in my case.


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## bigbadjon (Aug 6, 2015)

Much of the criticism of NLS is their alleged use of Ethoxyquin as a preservative. Personally I would rather feed them the preservative than feed them food with rancid fat. Northfin doesn't use it if anybody thinks it's an issue. 
On a side note a paper towel is just an easy and sanitary substrate for taking quick fish measurements. I may be the only person on this forum who measures his fish so a practical second opinion may not be available for this practice. It has never hurt my fish though.


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## johnson18 (Apr 29, 2011)

Teebo said:


> All my research says frozen food is just junk food, treats, with poor nutritional value. It also points to pellets being the most nutritional,




Any links to this research? Is this actual research as in you've read an independent study or just reading labels? 

I agree having a guaranteed analysis of the prepared food's contents is excellent. It implies the honesty and transparency of the manufacturer in that they have taken the time and expense to have their product analyzed. 
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bigbadjon (Aug 6, 2015)

No independent group is going to do study on the nutritional value of various fish food. Any study that does exist will be sponsored by the business pushing the product. So if that's what it takes to prove it to you then we can see your mind is already made up. If you are interested in practical experience I have given you a couple of documented examples in my pictures. Frozen foods are usually rich in a few areas and deficient in others. You're also paying for mostly water and little food. So then you start feeding this and that to cover the spread. All of a sudden your diet starts looking the same as what you could have been feeding in a single pellet at every feeding. If you truly want the answer then buy a can of NLS or a bag of Northfin and feed it exclusively to see if it makes a difference for you.


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

These threads are almost as contentious as the Dino versus Synthetic oils for motos, flame wars on bike forums.

I bought a lot of Golden Pearls from Brine Shrimp Direct back when they still carried them. Graded in sizes that covered what ever size fish I was keeping. It pretty much replaced feeding LBBS for my dwarf ciclids, and raising egglayer fry. I still think live food has it's place, and I keep some outdoor water barrels for Daphnia and Mossie larvae. I noticed that Hikari has stopped carrying their excellent multi colored 0.5~1.0 mm sized pellets. I could get my tetras into breeding condition on that food.


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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

GrampsGrunge said:


> These threads are almost as contentious as the Dino versus Synthetic oils for motos, flame wars on bike forums..


its so true though! this thread is where a fight would start lmao, Good on the title, bloody in the text... >


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

Teebo said:


> I still think people here are not reading the CONTENTS of their pellet food, as I see people listing the composition of crap pellets which is biased. *There is a reason NLS lists a guaranteed analysis:*
> 
> Crude Protein	38.0% min.
> Crude Fat	7.0% min.
> ...


As I said in my previous post "...However don't point me to vendor or manufacturer sites, as these are not unbiased sources. ..." 

Let us see some actual studies done or at lest some personal experiences by people that have actually tried multiple methods.

An ingredient list or analysis by the manufacturer of the product doesn't support your case. Neither does a video by a vendor that is trying to sell you a product.

Just because another vendor doesn't tell you what is in the product does not necessary mean they are hiding anything.


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## johnson18 (Apr 29, 2011)

bigbadjon said:


> No independent group is going to do study on the nutritional value of various fish food. Any study that does exist will be sponsored by the business pushing the product. So if that's what it takes to prove it to you then we can see your mind is already made up. If you are interested in practical experience I have given you a couple of documented examples in my pictures. Frozen foods are usually rich in a few areas and deficient in others. You're also paying for mostly water and little food. So then you start feeding this and that to cover the spread. All of a sudden your diet starts looking the same as what you could have been feeding in a single pellet at every feeding. If you truly want the answer then buy a can of NLS or a bag of Northfin and feed it exclusively to see if it makes a difference for you.




Lol. I'm actually not on one side of this discussion or the other, just an interested party. Not to mention I've fed NLS almost exclusively for quite a few years. 

I'm a scientist though, and as such I expect(or hope, at least!) that if someone states something based off their "research" they are at least able to offer something more scientific than their own opinion or experience. There's nothing wrong with sharing your experiences, but it should be stated as such. As far as studies into the topic, there are any number of independent parties, such as society journals or magazines, within our hobby that could have taken even a semi-scientific approach to this topic at some point in their history. Many of which have the potential to be less biased than the manufacturer sponsored study. 

As stated before, I'm not trying to side with either of the camps in this discussion. I see valid points from both groups. Honestly, I was hoping you had found some sort of semi-scientific comparisons in diets(varied live/frozen/pellets & strictly prepared foods such as NLS) mostly for my own education. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nikohak (Oct 21, 2016)

If you need *in depth* nutrient info of different commercial products, I think that this site is a good starting point: Fish Food Ingredients
Check the "5 star foods" etc. links at the top.


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## NickAu (Feb 24, 2017)

> Frozen fish food is more nutritious than most commercial and freeze-dried foods because fewer nutrients are lost than during freeze-drying and processing. In most cases, frozen fish food comes in individual cubes sold in packages designed to keep the foods fresh.............................
> 
> 
> 
> The main benefit of frozen fish food is that it retains more of its natural nutrients. When commercial and freeze-dried foods are processed, they lose many of their nutrients which makes them good for little more than simply satiating the hunger of your fish. Frozen food, on the other hand, can keep your fish healthier, can give them more energy and it can bring out more vibrant colors in their scales. Not only do your fish benefit from being fed frozen food, you will also be able to enjoy an aquarium full of colorful and active fish. After all, half the fun of keeping an aquarium is seeing your fish thrive and grow!


fish food

NLS pellets are good, frozen is great, but nothing beats live food and it gives your fish a break from boredom while they are hunting.

Again heres my Bettas hunting and eating Malaysian Trumpet snails. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTE2MXbB1bw

That is a natural way for insectivores/carnivores to feed, That big Mystery snail shell you see is actually empty, The girls made a nice meal out of it, and that snail cost me $3.50, I was going to crack its shell so they could get at it easier but there was no need.

Now I know some people will get squeamish at the idea of gutloading Live bearer fry and feeding them to my fish or feeding live Snails, Red Cherry Shrimp culls, Maggots, Worms, Fruit fly with a wing ripped off ( Yes I used to rip wings off flies as a child ) but these are the facts of this hobby, just like having to euthanize a sick fish sometimes by by using the pith method is.


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## Attackturtle (Dec 30, 2016)

I think any variety is beneficial over one catch all food. There is a lot to be said for switching things up with feeding. NLS is a great product and you won't go wrong with it but many of our fish are built to forage. They eat small amounts throughout the day. Switching things up on them with live food or frozen food keeps things interesting for you and them and those feedings mixed in with NLS certainly wont harm them.


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## tatisay (Nov 13, 2016)

bigbadjon: "*Northfin doesn't use it (ethoxyquin) if anybody thinks it's an issue*". 

You must be getting this info. from their website:Product Info | NorthFin Premium Fish Food
"*NorthFin Premium Fish Foods does not use any preservatives or harmful chemicals to preserve its product line*".

Below are 2 links discussing the subject in length. 

https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/northfin-food.677309/

Northfin fish food

Two lab.tests showed Northfin has ethoxyquin in their food.

https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachments/nf2-

jpg.1235801/https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachments/nf3-

jpg.1236125/https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachments/nf3-jpg.1236125/


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## tatisay (Nov 13, 2016)

bigbadjon, "*Northfin doesn't use it if anybody thinks it's an issue*". I hate to break your bubbles. According to the thread below. Northfin have ethoxyquin in their food.

https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/northfin-food.677309/


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## tatisay (Nov 13, 2016)

According to the info.These fish have been fed NLS exclusively.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz1oFTPI7uE


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s5R32UG-10


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## bigbadjon (Aug 6, 2015)

It says right on the bottle not to overfeed. But it should still be fed exclusively.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

bigbadjon said:


> It says right on the bottle not to overfeed. But it should still be fed exclusively.


This is because why? Extremely nutritious and therefor can pollute water?


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## bigbadjon (Aug 6, 2015)

Possibly. It may also be so rich that it leads to obesity. My fish are fat and I feed lightly twice a day and fast them on Wed and Sun.


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