# Really need your help on my first soil substrate



## Henri (Jul 7, 2011)

Hi everyone!
After getting a new and bigger tank today, I decided I'm going to make it heavily planted and have read absolutely good opinions about soil substrate, I'm mostly doing this because I don't want to deal with root tabs, I can't find them anywhere around here and if I buy online the shipping to my country will cost about $15. It's true that root feeders don't need root tabs with a soil substrate right? These are the plants I mostly have. 
So can anyone help me with this? I'm very excited and am hoping to do this this weekend. I'm also a total beginner, all the plants I've kept so far are java moss, java fern and hornwort.
So what am I suposed to do? I've got the soil, it has no chemicals such as fertilizers or pesticides. The soil has been used as planting soil for about 1,5 - 2 years, it hasn't lost all it's " nutritional values ", has it? 
What else do I need? I'm not looking to make anything complex, just a bottom layer of soil and gravel on top of it. So my point is, I can't do much on getting ky hands on some clay if that's needed.
- Another question is, how much or how many inches of soil do I have to put on the tank and how many gravel do I have to put in to cover the soil? I'd love the look of a thick substrate, so I wont spare the soil used.
How much of each (soil, gravel)?
- Do I need to dose liquid ferts weekly? It's okay even if I need to, I can dose.
- Oh and also, do I ever need to replace the substrate? I mean the soil, do I ever need to replace it with new one? Will it ever lose it's nutrients?
And last, as mentioned before, how do I do this without making a mess in the tank, and how do I hide the soild with the gravel so it wont show up even after filling the tank with water? This is a 20 gallon tank, not a tall one, but slightly tall than wide.
Thanks a lot everyone, Im looking forward to your replies and I'm really excited about this, cant wait for the weekend to come xD...
Thanks!


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Welcome

Use 6cm dirt, on the top put 3cm sand or very fine gravel.

NO frets for 3 months

light 8-10hrs

change 30% of water each week

Plant as much as you can right away.

That will get you off to a safe start.

Fat i mirë


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## Daximus (Oct 19, 2011)

He ^^^ pretty much covered it. I'll give you my personal step by step. 

#1 Put dirt into tank (dry), maybe with a little clay(your call), to about 1 to 1&1/2 inches. 
#2 Smooth out dirt.
#3 Add capping material. I like about 1 to 1&1/2 inches again. 
#4 Smooth out capping material. 
#5 Using a plate for a splash guard, add water to 1/2 full. 
#6 Plant as many plants as you have or can afford. 
#7 Finish filling with water, hook up pump, heater, lights, etc. 
#8 Turn on. Drink beer. Go to sleep. 
#9 Next day, Do 50% water change. Test water. 
#10 If safe, go get some cheap fish and put them in tank. 
#11 Change 25% water daily for one week (if possible) or as needed. 
#12 Once tank is cycled, treat as regular aquarium. Water change as needed.


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## dantra (May 25, 2007)

This thread by Aaron may help you out. roud:

Dan


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## Dmckmc (Jan 22, 2012)

DogFish said:


> Welcome
> 
> Use 6cm dirt, on the top put 3cm sand or very fine gravel.
> 
> ...


Dog fish, why no ferts for 3 months? Please take a look at my post (BGA in new tank) in the algae section. Could this be my problem?


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Bwahahaha too funny you 2 dirt bunnies :hihi:

Dantra that's a great thread you linked roud: but a lot of effort for roughly the same results.

Hi Henri, 
Do you ever do any tests on you're water? pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, hardness testing of any kind?
How well does the java moss, java fern and hornwort grow for you?
Getting a bigger tank are you changing the lighting?
(I realize I'm answering you're posted questions mostly with my own.) 

Regarding how long the soil base lasts will depend on the nutrient content starting out, the organic content to help sustain it long term and the nutrient demand placed on it. That demand is driven by how much light energy is provided the tank more than almost anything else.
With my belief that light energy is easiest to understand and adjust without changing the tank in any major way. Light is the dogs head and everything else is just the stuff between it and the tail. Light drives demand. So I asked about intended lighting. 
All my new tank starts now include floaters. Added starting out many are cleared completely after a few months.
Floaters are a great help controlling light rather than changing photo period as another option. Filtering the water too goes almost without saying. Removing free nutrients from the water it all adds up to floaters helping a great deal to avoid algae on a new tank. Ricca, Frogbit, Moss or Subwassertang, Salvinia cheap easy plants with great value (imo).
That said having a tank set up with bagged dirt alone MGOCPM (potting mix) and nothing else for over a year I saw nothing to indicate the plants were lacking any nutrient at all and growth never stumbled. Beyond 3yrs. now and still no additives or changes made. Growth has slowed but the tank is still stable and growing plants.

Flourite, Eco Complete and larger gravel mixes allow the soil to release more to the water during the first few months is my experience. Using sand or a mixture of sand and smaller frag my water parameter always test a lower nutrient content. (Web searches should pull photo's of different substrates for reference sizing.) 
I don't care for traditional river gravel very much as it doesn't produce a very good boundary layer. The round pebbles do little to hold the dirt. Even in a thick layer (6cm or more) traditional river gravel still allows some soil to work out into the tank water. 

welcome to our dirty world :smile: 

(but I think we should answer a bunch of questions both ways to help)


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Dmckmc said:


> Dog fish, why no ferts for 3 months?


Because A.) the OP said & asked:



Henri said:


> ....I'm not looking to make anything complex, just a bottom layer of soil and gravel on top of it.....
> 
> - Another question is, how much or how many inches of soil do I have to put on the tank and how many gravel do I have to put in to cover the soil? I'd love the look of a thick substrate, so I wont spare the soil used.
> How much of each (soil, gravel)?
> ...


B.) The OP is from Albainia. English is hard enough for Americans. That advice will get him up & running. THEN he can read all the info here until his head explodes. :wink:

C.) Sometimes simple is best, especially at start-up.

I'll look at your thread and comment there. :wink:


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## Henri (Jul 7, 2011)

DogFish said:


> Welcome
> 
> Use 6cm dirt, on the top put 3cm sand or very fine gravel.
> 
> ...


Thank you!! I'm using gravel with this tank ! I just found out that my plant fertilizer contains chelated copper, but since copper is deadly to invertebrates, and I'm planning to put 2-3 mystery snails in the tank, I'm affraid I can't use it. Are the ferts so essential ?
Falemiderit ^_^


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## Henri (Jul 7, 2011)

Daximus said:


> He ^^^ pretty much covered it. I'll give you my personal step by step.
> 
> #1 Put dirt into tank (dry), maybe with a little clay(your call), to about 1 to 1&1/2 inches.
> #2 Smooth out dirt.
> ...


Thanks a lot for the tips! Ughh, do i have to put in DRY soil? In the link Dantra posted below your post, there were steps explaining that the soil has to be dry in a form of mud in order to mineralize the soil ( the organic materials will break down from the bacteria to a form that is readily usable from the plants). What should I do?! :S


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Henri said:


> Thanks a lot for the tips! Ughh, do i have to put in DRY soil? In the link Dantra posted below your post, there were steps explaining that the soil has to be dry in a form of mud in order to mineralize the soil ( the organic materials will break down from the bacteria to a form that is readily usable from the plants). What should I do?! :S


"I've got the soil, it has no chemicals such as fertilizers or pesticides. The soil has been used as planting soil for about 1,5 - 2 years, it hasn't lost all it's " nutritional values ", has it? "

There are many ways to use dirt, all work, some are easier than others.

If you want to put this all together NOW. It will grow plants. If you want to follow the steps in the link that may work better longer.

My best advice is to SLOW DOWN and read every thread on this sub-forum before you start this tank up. Ask question about specific pints that are confusing.


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## Henri (Jul 7, 2011)

DogFish said:


> "I've got the soil, it has no chemicals such as fertilizers or pesticides. The soil has been used as planting soil for about 1,5 - 2 years, it hasn't lost all it's " nutritional values ", has it? "
> 
> There are many ways to use dirt, all work, some are easier than others.
> 
> ...


I thought that watering the soil was a must, I didn't know that... If you read the post I made previously:



Henri said:


> Thank you!! I'm using gravel with this tank ! I just found out that my plant fertilizer contains chelated copper, but since copper is deadly to invertebrates, and I'm planning to put 2-3 mystery snails in the tank, I'm affraid I can't use it. Are the ferts so essential ?
> Falemiderit ^_^


That's why I was trying to mineralize it, will it last longer? If I could use my ferts then I'd just use the dry soil. Do you grt my problem ?
Also I read many threads about this on the foum and almost every thread was about showing the results of the soil substrate, I didn't find any with explained steps...


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

This is a quote from the Sticky on MTS at the top go this sub-forum:

"The algae likely results from the excess nutrients that decomposing organic materials release in the soil. The decomposing organic materials are not bio-available to the aquatic plants. As the tank matures, the algae dissipate slowly as the organics in the soil finish breaking down.

Mineralizing the soil beforehand helps to speed the breakdown of organic materials in the soil. In turn the mineralized soil will help shorten the initial algae outbreak period that many aquarists experience when using a soil substrate. Soil mineralization occurs from exposing bacteria, enzymes and other soil microbes to oxygen in a moist environment. The microbes break down the organic materials in the soil into bio-available minerals. As an added bonus these new bio-available forms of nutrients are generally only available to plants and not to algae. "

************

That is why I always suggest newbie READ the forums then ask specific questions. This sub-forum holds all the answers already. But, somethings may need claification.

Can you put dirt, in a tank, cap, plant it and new successful...YES.

Will you have to take greater precautions against algae & bacterial blooms...YES

Can going taking the time to mineralize the soil lession the risk factor ...YES

Will adding Clay, Potash, Peat eye to MTS extend it's working life....YES

Can extra fets, too much light, not enough. plants, an unestablished filter, not enough water changes, incomplete cycle, too much initial bio-load in a new tank cause problems.......YES

In this link are your explained steps:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/substrate/152027-how-mineralized-soil-substrate-mts-aaron.html


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## Henri (Jul 7, 2011)

DogFish said:


> This is a quote from the Sticky on MTS at the top go this sub-forum:
> 
> "The algae likely results from the excess nutrients that decomposing organic materials release in the soil. The decomposing organic materials are not bio-available to the aquatic plants. As the tank matures, the algae dissipate slowly as the organics in the soil finish breaking down.
> 
> ...


Yes, I was talking based on that thread. I already read it. It suggests to mineralize the dirt before adding it to the substrate. I didn't really fill up the soil with water 2 inches above it, It's heavily raining outside and I have a huge pot with soild, It was already wet from the rain, I just dumped a o,5 littre soda bottle on it and will put it in the tank tomorrow... I was just wanting to know if mineralizing it will make the soil last longer... Also can you answer my ferts question please? Do I really have to use them with the soild, I'm really worried about my snails' life... The fertilizer contains chelated copper as mentioned above...
Thanks and sorry for the questions...


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

You don't need Ferts in a new tank to get started.

How much Cleated copper%


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## Henri (Jul 7, 2011)

DogFish said:


> You don't need Ferts in a new tank to get started.
> 
> How much Cleated copper%


THAT'S the problem, i can't find the percentage of it anywhere!!! It just says: This bottle contains: chelated iron, magnessium, zinc, copper, etc. It doesn't say anything about percentages... Can I not dose for a long time? Like until summer or April? I recieved the fertilizer as a gift from a friend in Australia because LFS don't sell them over here, Albania has very poorly stocked stores, due to the lack of knowledge of people towards this hobby...


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Can you look the stuff up on the internet? I can't answer that question without knowing how much copper is in there.

will you keep fish in this tank?


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## Henri (Jul 7, 2011)

DogFish said:


> Can you look the stuff up on the internet? I can't answer that question without knowing how much copper is in there.
> 
> will you keep fish in this tank?


I've checked their website but I can't find anything about that. It's so frustrating. Yeah of course I'll be adding fish to the tank.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Your fishes waste will feed the plants. 

I would not use a fert that I didn't know the content % in my tanks. So I would tell you to not use those frets. 

Many people has very nice planted tanks with dirt/sand capped substrate and fish and they do not use ferts.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Debate and speculation is all I've ever found regarding which lasts longer organically rich soil or MTS. 
Users of both have reported years of good results. Available light energy has more effect in my opinion.

I do not believe the algae relationship as most try to argue it either. Repeated experience here with organically rich soil mixes algae has not been a problem. 
Tannins (stained water) will always be present with a new tank having organics in the aquarium substrate can be made as a blanket statement. Effort involved is the biggest difference I see.

My opinion is that useful life of product is ruffly the same for both. This statement has offended those using MTS because of the efforts involved creating it.

NPT vs MTS as you posted reading the thread on MTS.
Mineralized soil involves many steps and the end result is a nutrient rich readily available base. NPT or simply dumping the dirt in and capping it are the same processes at work only at different times as the same thing happens. It's just a question of where. 
Mineralizing dirt the activity of bacteria break down the organic compounds releasing the minerals. Making MTS this happens on a tarp, in open air. Drying and wetting it to speed up the process. The activity of bacteria breaking down the organic compounds over time creates several changes within the tank that MTS completes first eliminating these shifts from occurring in the aquarium. The conversion of organics and the break down is slowed greatly in the tank because of less available oxygen. The submerged steady state of decay once established in the tank takes about a year or more to happen. During that time as bacteria chew through the organic material settling or collapse of the organic materials reduces the thickness of the substrate. This doesn't happen using MTS. Once the organics have been consumed / converted back to mineral content alone by the bacteria the minerals are available as plant nutrients. I consider this time released plant food. MTS nutrients are made available before the dirt ever goes in the tank. You do more work setting up the system.

The biggest differences between the two methods are you're efforts and where the organics are broken down, in tank or before. In tank tannins are always experienced (water staining). The substrate layer thickness will decrease. Starting with 6cm of soil after a year the layer might be 3cm, maybe less. Neither of these conditions bother me or my fauna.

MTS formulas list additives like dolomite, potash and clay. 
MTS - dolomite and potash lightly dusted on the bottom of the tank. Mixing clay into the mineralized soil then placing this and capping it = MTS. 

Why can't the additives be used in the same way with organically rich soil? 
Answer; they can be

Quote from the Sticky on MTS:
_"The algae *likely* results from the excess nutrients that decomposing organic materials release in the soil. The decomposing organic materials are not bio-available to the aquatic plants. As the tank matures, the algae dissipate slowly as the organics in the soil finish breaking down."
_ 
This is saying what exactly?

Organically bound minerals are not available to plants true but once bacteria break it down plants can use them. The purpose of the mixed clay in MTS is to bind nutrients. Reading many MTS journals when people using MTS report algae problems others say not enough clay was mixed in or the capping material was not placed correctly or didn't have a high CEC so both methods can experience algae problems.


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## Henri (Jul 7, 2011)

I just found some clay, yes!! There was a huge area of natural ash near my dad's work and he got a big clump for me. It's plain grey. Is it okay to use?
Also, ash contains potash right? Can I use ash as a potash source?


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## Henri (Jul 7, 2011)

Bump. Anyone?


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