# AR in low tech?



## MoreliaViridis (May 19, 2021)

They do fine. 
A lot of plants are actually easier when lighting is low. CO2 will help tremendously.

But I only kept them lo-tech on AS. So cannot tell for other substrates.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Ok 


MoreliaViridis said:


> They do fine.
> A lot of plants are actually easier when lighting is low. CO2 will help tremendously.
> 
> But I only kept them lo-tech on AS. So cannot tell for other substrates.


cool so it’s not hopeless, maybe I can try. Did it still have a nice color in low tech? Or was it more muted?


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## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

They can do fine with a rich substrate but for many they struggle and die. Even with co2 they can struggle and die. I've not seen people describe their water conditions when successful (or unsuccessful) so I'm not sure if they prefer acidic or alkaline water, hard or soft et all but uniformly my observation is they require a rich substrate and do poorly in inert substrate. I personally have had very limited success with them - even with co2 - without co2 i've not had any success.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

jake21 said:


> They can do fine with a rich substrate but for many they struggle and die. Even with co2 they can struggle and die. I've not seen people describe their water conditions when successful (or unsuccessful) so I'm not sure if they prefer acidic or alkaline water, hard or soft et all but uniformly my observation is they require a rich substrate and do poorly in inert substrate. I personally have had very limited success with them - even with co2 - without co2 i've not had any success.


Yeah it was my impression that it’s finicky and doesn’t easily thrive... my water is neutral leaning towards acidic slowly... hmmm, maybe isn’t worth it after all. 

Did you have no luck with inert substrate even when feeding root tabs?


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## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

LidijaPN said:


> Yeah it was my impression that it’s finicky and doesn’t easily thrive... my water is neutral leaning towards acidic slowly... hmmm, maybe isn’t worth it after all.
> 
> Did you have no luck with inert substrate even when feeding root tabs?


I had one plant that did really well for 3 months - with a lot of new growth and sprouts but then it suddenly died and I don't know why (this is with co2 and very strong light - it was mini variety). On the one hand it will be a while before i try them again - on the other hand they are relatively cheap compare to some plants since they are cuttings (the plant i had that did well was purchased from a hobist for like $3 - the advantage was that instead of a cutting i received well rooted plants.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Spoiler



AR in completely inert black sand


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## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

Asteroid said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes but growing condition (ph,kh,temp,...) - also why did my plant do really well and then suddenly die?

Btw my Lagenandra Meeboldii (this is the ugly red plant to the right of the pictured ar) is doing pretty well - it spreads faster than the mini AR; which is to say it is still growing after 3 years (which isn't saying much since it is an impossible plant to kill).


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

jake21 said:


> Yes but growing condition (ph,kh,temp,...) - also why did my plant do really well and then suddenly die?
> 
> Btw my Lagenandra Meeboldii (this is the ugly red plant to the right of the pictured ar) is doing pretty well - it spreads faster than the mini AR; which is to say it is still growing after 3 years (which isn't saying much since it is an impossible plant to kill).


Point I'm making is it's not the inert substrate if it grows for me and others. Lagenandra Meeboldii is a weird plant. Yes it looks like it does in the pic, but then it throws off incredible oranges and purples which is what my avatar pic is.


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## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

Asteroid said:


> Point I'm making is it's not the inert substrate if it grows for me and others. Lagenandra Meeboldii is a weird plant. Yes it looks like it does in the pic, but then it throws off incredible oranges and purples which is what my avatar pic is.


Not disagreeing - just think it would help if you post your condition (temp, kh,gh,ph, co2,...).


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## evil8 (Aug 7, 2018)

I've tried to grow AR Mini 3 times now and it starts off well, but soon just melts away. I think it's my water.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

jake21 said:


> Not disagreeing - just think it would help if you post your condition (temp, kh,gh,ph, co2,...).


OK, I thought you were making a point above about the inert substrate being the issue. Anyway, I'm not a big tester as I dose EI and went to that method since I do not like test kits, but last time I checked:

KH = 3
GH = 8
PH 7.5 degassesd / 6.3-6.5 gassed



evil8 said:


> I've tried to grow AR Mini 3 times now and it starts off well, but soon just melts away. I think it's my water.


I never ever experienced a melt of any kind. I know it's common in some plants like crypts, etc, but I just have never seen it. Not bragging and I don't do anything purposely to avoid it, I just have zero experience with it. I do think you right that some source water is just not good for certain plants.


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## MoreliaViridis (May 19, 2021)

Asteroid said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thought someone would chime in...


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

evil8 said:


> I've tried to grow AR Mini 3 times now and it starts off well, but soon just melts away. I think it's my water.


What’s your water like?

I’m trying to triangulate enough info to see if it’s worth a shot....

Are some AR more finicky than others? Like does the mini tend to cause more problems?


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

LidijaPN said:


> What’s your water like?
> 
> I’m trying to triangulate enough info to see if it’s worth a shot....
> 
> Are some AR more finicky than others? Like does the mini tend to cause more problems?


Low tech with your light I honestly wouldn't bother. If you just want to see for yourself of course try it, but that would be my advise.


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## evil8 (Aug 7, 2018)

LidijaPN said:


> What’s your water like?
> 
> I’m trying to triangulate enough info to see if it’s worth a shot....
> 
> Are some AR more finicky than others? Like does the mini tend to cause more problems?


My water is kind of hard . The pH from the tap is 8.8 and the KH is 9. I do well with most plants, but a few just haven't worked. I think it's my water, but it might just be me.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

It's grown great for me in parameters similar to what @Asteroid mentions above with high medium lighting (maybe about 70% of what it should be in an ideal environment) and CO2 about half where most would keep it. Looks as good as when I've grown it in Aqua Soil with 0 kH, 5 gH, crazy lighting and tons of dosing. Lighting and CO2 have made all the difference.

Best specimens I've gotten through the years were from tissue culture pouches at PetSmart. 

For the tank you have, @LidijaPN, I'm not sure I'd put in the effort to get it to thrive. If you already have it, though, if it lives? 10/10. If not? Easy snail & shrimp food. 

One thing you could try if you do already have AR and it starts to do poorly in your tank: Could remove it and grow it emersed in a windowsill. Clear mason jar + potting soil + plastic wrap or clear cellophane neatly held on top with rubber band + mist every day or so = victory.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

evil8 said:


> My water is kind of hard . The pH from the tap is 8.8 and the KH is 9. I do well with most plants, but a few just haven't worked. I think it's my water, but it might just be me.


Like they don’t like you personally? 😂 This is my explanation for why land plants never worked for me. We have differing political beliefs or something 😂



Asteroid said:


> Low tech with your light I honestly wouldn't bother. If you just want to see for yourself of course try it, but that would be my advise.


Yeah I have a gut feeling you’re right but am tempted to try just as an experiment. Maybe if I can nab a cutting somewhere for free. 

What about AR green, same requirements? Someone wants to give me some....


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

somewhatshocked said:


> It's grown great for me in parameters similar to what @Asteroid mentions above with high medium lighting (maybe about 70% of what it should be in an ideal environment) and CO2 about half where most would keep it. Looks as good as when I've grown it in Aqua Soil with 0 kH, 5 gH, crazy lighting and tons of dosing. Lighting and CO2 have made all the difference.
> 
> Best specimens I've gotten through the years were from tissue culture pouches at PetSmart.
> 
> ...


My jars are multiplying and hubs doesn’t like it lol 😂

I am getting a free cutting of AR green so I guess I’ll count that as my first AR experience, though I assume the pink is more demanding?


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## evil8 (Aug 7, 2018)

LidijaPN said:


> Like they don’t like you personally? 😂 This is my explanation for why land plants never worked for me. We have differing political beliefs or something 😂


That made me laugh!


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

LidijaPN said:


> I am getting a free cutting of AR green so I guess I’ll count that as my first AR experience, though I assume the pink is more demanding?


You might have better luck with the green variant but I think CO2 and strong lighting are pretty much going to be required for a plant like that. 

A fun way to get around people opposing multiple tanks/jars/vases: have one in a bathroom with a small light set on a timer for night time. 2-in-1 plant jar and night light!


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

somewhatshocked said:


> You might have better luck with the green variant but I think CO2 and strong lighting are pretty much going to be required for a plant like that.
> 
> A fun way to get around people opposing multiple tanks/jars/vases: have one in a bathroom with a small light set on a timer for night time. 2-in-1 plant jar and night light!


haha I see you're experienced in this 

I'll give the green one a go in my tank and see what happens.... I'm not particularly invested in it, just curious.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

LidijaPN said:


> My jars are multiplying and hubs doesn’t like it lol 😂
> 
> I am getting a free cutting of AR green so I guess I’ll count that as my first AR experience, though I assume the pink is more demanding?


Although I don't recommend DIY co2, because long-term it's a real drag, you seem (could be wrong) like the kind of person who would enjoy trying it. It's easy to do and see how it affects your plants. Your 29G is a good size wherein it's small enough for the DIY to make a difference, but large enough not to gas your fish.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Asteroid said:


> Although I don't recommend DIY co2, because long-term it's a real drag, you seem (could be wrong) like the kind of person who would enjoy trying it. It's easy to do and see how it affects your plants. Your 29G is a good size wherein it's small enough for the DIY to make a difference, but large enough not to gas your fish.


ahahaha I think you're right, I might end up going there one day..... Probably not right now tho. But yes I am exactly the sort of person who would enjoy that sort of thing


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Asteroid said:


> Although I don't recommend DIY co2, because long-term it's a real drag, you seem (could be wrong) like the kind of person who would enjoy trying it. It's easy to do and see how it affects your plants. Your 29G is a good size wherein it's small enough for the DIY to make a difference, but large enough not to gas your fish.


This.

And if you use good quality brewing yeast from a home brew beer nerd or wine nerd shop, you'll likely be able to keep a culture going for 3-4 months before swapping it out.



LidijaPN said:


> ahahaha I think you're right, I might end up going there one day..... Probably not right now tho. But yes I am exactly the sort of person who would enjoy that sort of thing


Even if you don't do this with your current tank, it could be fun for you to try at some point with a jar or vase.


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## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

Asteroid said:


> OK, I thought you were making a point above about the inert substrate being the issue. Anyway, I'm not a big tester as I dose EI and went to that method since I do not like test kits, but last time I checked:
> 
> KH = 3
> GH = 8
> ...


My water is similar but different - kh 3 gh 7 ph 7.1 (6.3 with co2). I bet the reason they work for you is your gh 8 and fail for me because my gh is 7 
-
Well at least the shrimps have double in size and are happy being shrimpy.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Mine's kH 3, gH 6 or just over, pH 7.4...... no CO2.... let's see what the AR green decides to do with that situation.... 

I'm also getting a cutting of ludwigia repens, is that picky? Though the guy I'm getting it from seems to have it in very sketchy conditions and it looks solid so it can't be too much of a whiner...


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

somewhatshocked said:


> This.
> 
> And if you use good quality brewing yeast from a home brew beer nerd or wine nerd shop, you'll likely be able to keep a culture going for 3-4 months before swapping it out.
> 
> ...


I really have to look into the possibility of a CO2 jar. That would be super fun especially as I'm getting a good light for it cheap from a guy who is getting rid of stuff (I mean just a nicrew but miles above what I currently have). I have to see if there is a system I can set up on a jar that would be small and not too cumbersome.... since it's on my desk and there's not a ton of room for gadgetry around.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

LidijaPN said:


> I have to see if there is a system I can set up on a jar that would be small and not too cumbersome.... since it's on my desk and there's not a ton of room for gadgetry around.


The cheapest method is as follows:

2 liter soda bottle (you can use smaller like a 1 liter plastic Perrier or San Pellegrino bottle)
Smaller bottle - like a 500ml soda bottle
Silicone
Dremel, drill or hammer & large-ish diameter nail

You'll want to search the forum for guides and recipes but essentially, this is my preferred method for setup:

2 liter bottle with a hole in the cap just about the size of airline tubing - or slightly smaller if using silicone tubing that has more flex in it. I use a Dremel to drill the hole and then use a pocket knife to twist around to enlarge the hole as needed. Can use a hammer and nail (lid turned upside down for this purpose and placed on the ground outside or on a piece of scrap wood) to start the holes if you don't have access to anything else. 

Smaller bottle with 2 holes in the cap. Same method. One hole for airline running from the 2 liter bottle that goes down into water you place in the small bottle (1/2 to 2/3 full, functions as a bubble counter of sorts but primarily as a crud catcher) and one that is placed above the water and runs to the diffuser in the tank. Use silicone inside the bottle caps and on their tops to seal up any openings where CO2 could escape.

I'm able to operate an actual ceramic diffuser from fleabay when using a high quality strain of yeast. Sometimes I'm able to keep a setup going for longer than 3-4 months by adding sugar and keeping an eye on things but it's honestly just cheaper and less messy to start fresh when necessary. Have been running a 2.5gal tank with Utricularia graminifolia like this since about 2011. Just change the yeast yuckies a few times per year. I do have pressurized systems but this is one I have always kept on a shelf with no livestock. This method produces so much CO2 that I don't believe it's suitable for critters in my tiny tank but would be fine on a larger container.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

somewhatshocked said:


> The cheapest method is as follows:
> 
> 2 liter soda bottle (you can use smaller like a 1 liter plastic Perrier or San Pellegrino bottle)
> Smaller bottle - like a 500ml soda bottle
> ...


mmm yeah that’s a lot of stuff.... I’ll keep it in mind for a future experiment tho, maybe as a science project with my kid hahah.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

LidijaPN said:


> mmm yeah that’s a lot of stuff.... I’ll keep it in mind for a future experiment tho, maybe as a science project with my kid hahah.


Just two bottles. Can use smaller ones as long as they can handle a build up of pressure like soda bottles can. Pretty easy to disguise or hide behind other stuff. Using a larger 2 liter bottle just means there's more room for yeast to do its thing without having to replace the setup with as much frequency.

Could definitely be a fun science project if the kid ever needs one for school. One container with CO2, one container without, same substrate, same light (put them under the same bulb/fixture), same plants. There are some teachers on the forum with threads documenting projects similar to these from years gone by. Worth a perusal if you ever decide to try.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

somewhatshocked said:


> Just two bottles. Can use smaller ones as long as they can handle a build up of pressure like soda bottles can. Pretty easy to disguise or hide behind other stuff. Using a larger 2 liter bottle just means there's more room for yeast to do its thing without having to replace the setup with as much frequency.
> 
> Could definitely be a fun science project if the kid ever needs one for school. One container with CO2, one container without, same substrate, same light (put them under the same bulb/fixture), same plants. There are some teachers on the forum with threads documenting projects similar to these from years gone by. Worth a perusal if you ever decide to try.


that sounds like a ton of fun!! Will definitely do it at some point, he's into that kind of stuff.

When I say 'too much' I just mean that I don't see two soda bottles fitting anywhere in this setup


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## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

I didn't find it picky but i found over time the stems need to be trimmed and replanted. I had it in a 24 inch tank and reaching the bottom was a pia so i pulled it and gave up. i never bothered with it in a low tech tank because i sort of consider it (and stems in general) high maint. I don't really put mini-ar in this category since it stays short.
-
One thing i found that is amusing is i have some ha'ra rotala that has decided to grow like a grass - horizontal along the substrate but it is maintaining decent colour - so that will be an interesting experiment.



LidijaPN said:


> I'm also getting a cutting of ludwigia repens, is that picky? Though the guy I'm getting it from seems to have it in very sketchy conditions and it looks solid so it can't be too much of a whiner...


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## Eric Tran (Jul 7, 2016)

My Ar mini grows healthy and algae free in my shrimp tank with aquasoil and no nutrient dosing.


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## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

Eric Tran said:


> My Ar mini grows healthy and algae free in my shrimp tank with aquasoil and no nutrient dosing.


well aquasoil is a lot of nutrient  Do you inject co2 or does it grow fine without co2 ?


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## Eric Tran (Jul 7, 2016)

That is true with aquasoil haha. No Co2 or nutrient dosing. It does grow slower, also lighting period is only 4-5 hours. but the growth is really healthy pink.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Eric Tran said:


> No Co2 or nutrient dosing. It does grow slower, also lighting period is only 4-5 hours. but the growth is really healthy.


Ok that’s somewhat hopeful.... 

gH and kH? Temperature? ⭐


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## Eric Tran (Jul 7, 2016)

Diy Co2 with two soda bottles like what somewhatshcoked says is a good idea. I ran a 55 gallon in the past on it and had amazing results. Even grew full carpeting plants like repens and hc cuba. You can just feed the output line right into your filter intake. 2 soda bottles because they usually last 3-4 weeks but you can stagger it so that you change one bottle every 2 weeks so you never run out. Eventually you get lazy and buy a Co2 setup and take the plunge to the dark side. 😂


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## Eric Tran (Jul 7, 2016)

Shrimp tanks run on ro water remineralized to 6gh. I use salty shrimp gh+ but You can get some gh booster for this. Temp at 72-74 degrees. Even discarded high demanding plants I just threw in and let float grew like crazy. Water change 50% once a month other than that just top off. Use that 50% water to clean the filter sponges and media.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Eric Tran said:


> Shrimp tanks run on ro water remineralized to 6gh. I use salty shrimp gh+ but You can get some gh booster for this. Temp at 72-74 degrees. Even discarded high demanding plants I just threw in and let float grew like crazy. Water change 50% once a month other than that just top off. Use that 50% water to clean the filter sponges and media.


Ok I’m definitely giving it a shot hahah. What’s the worst that could happen? 😅


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## Eric Tran (Jul 7, 2016)

I do the same water params on my high light Co2 injected planted tank. Except Ei method dosing so water changes weekly.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

jake21 said:


> My water is similar but different - kh 3 gh 7 ph 7.1 (6.3 with co2). I bet the reason they work for you is your gh 8 and fail for me because my gh is 7
> -
> Well at least the shrimps have double in size and are happy being shrimpy.


Yes, the key jump from Gh 7 to 8. Don't you know 8 is the sweet spot  Glad the shrimp are doing well.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Well someone is giving me some free AR so I will happily report all my failures with it here!! 😂


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## Joe M (12 mo ago)

LidijaPN said:


> Basically the title. Can Althernathera Reineckii make it in a low tech tank? Am I just wasting my time trying?
> 
> I don’t need it to look magical, just to live....


Perhaps I've been lucky, but I've been growing AR in my graveled low tech tank w/Excel and API leafzone (Iron/pottasium) for over a year and a half now. My source water is pretty hard. I started off with a handfull of purchased cuttings. Some of them were taking forever to grow and got encrusted with algae, to the point that I had to pull them out. After awhile, two of the cuttings started taking off. I've been cutting/replanting these for awhile now. Cuttings have been taking off too. Mine are basically green, with an occasional slightly discernable hue of red on some of the leaves. Yeah, forget about those georgeous reds in the photos when going low tech! lol

I've had similar experiences with other stem plants. Seems like it's a matter of hoping that you get the "right" one or two in the bunch. Then from there, go with the cuttings.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Joe M said:


> Perhaps I've been lucky, but I've been growing AR in my graveled low tech tank w/Excel and API leafzone (Iron/pottasium) for over a year and a half now. My source water is pretty hard. I started off with a handfull of purchased cuttings. Some of them were taking forever to grow and got encrusted with algae, to the point that I had to pull them out. After awhile, two of the cuttings started taking off. I've been cutting/replanting these for awhile now. Cuttings have been taking off too. Mine are basically green, with an occasional slightly discernable hue of red on some of the leaves. Yeah, forget about those georgeous reds in the photos when going low tech! lol
> 
> I've had similar experiences with other stem plants. Seems like it's a matter of hoping that you get the "right" one or two in the bunch. Then from there, go with the cuttings.


That’s super interesting.... seems like everyone has different experiences. Gives me hope.

Anyway someone just gave me a cutting from what they claim is their low tech tank..... look at it









So I’m gonna try to keep it alive but I only have the one so we will see.


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