# If Calcium Deficiency, how much stunted growth?



## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

three105 said:


> if a tank's only limiting nutrient, high light (deep tank 72) glass top, co2 injection through 1000 reactor 3-6 bps. 265W 6700 brand new bubl CF coralife fixture 65 watt bulbs, EI dosing by recommendation, flourish iron, and flourish with trace, started excel today as well... flourite for gravel and heavily planted...
> 
> if the limiting nutrient is calcium and plants are turning sorta white not so yellow at all but more of a white fading green color and My plants aren't growing that fast at alllll... even when I dosed HEAVY EI + trace for awhile... could the limiting factor of calcium or magnesium cause stunted growth... especially in riccia because it is more of a harder water plant (with soft water where you live)


I'm thinking that your limitation is CO2. 265w cf is a good amount of light and 3-6 bps while may seem like a lot it's not as much as you think in a 72g. If you don't have several powerhead/circulation pumps in the tank that would add to the problem. Dosing heavy won't make any difference. Light is the driving force and without enough CO2 it's gonna be algae city.


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## jim lockhart (Apr 26, 2007)

Ca, Mg, and S are the minor league Macros, but plants still need all of them to grow. 

EI should take care of S.

Leaves that cup longwise (esp. hygros) are a sign of Ca deficiency, also thin or transparent shells on snails.

with cheap gh and Ca test kits, you can determine Ca and Mg levels, and elimitate the guesswork.

Once you have established the levels, you can adjust as necessary. Typically a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio of Ca:Mg is advised. I use Ca at 25-30ppm, and Mg at 5-10 (reconst RODI water). I use CaSO4 and MgSO4 for this.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Adding a tablespoon of GH booster at water changes should eliminate any Ca deficiency without the need for a test kit and then you can concentrate on CO2.


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## three105 (Nov 15, 2007)

thanks, appreciate all the feedback... I dosed seachem equilibrium yesterday... and rescaped... under aquascape, uploaded pictures...

i dosed 2 tablespoons of equilibrium mixed with water change water...

so do you think I should up co2 to like what... 6bps? + seachem excel?


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

three105 said:


> thanks, appreciate all the feedback... I dosed seachem equilibrium yesterday... and rescaped... under aquascape, uploaded pictures...
> 
> i dosed 2 tablespoons of equilibrium mixed with water change water...
> 
> so do you think I should up co2 to like what... 6bps? + seachem excel?


How close is your fixture to the tank and hour many hours of light? Do you live in an area of extremely soft water? Are you using RO (reverse osmosis) water? What do you have in the tank to circulate the water so CO2 is distributed? You should consider getting a drop checker and some 4dkH water to see if CO2 level is adequate and is getting to all areas of the tank. If you have average water it's probably not calcium or magnesium. But as others have said that is easily fixed using various products.


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## three105 (Nov 15, 2007)

"How close is your fixture to the tank and hour many hours of light? Do you live in an area of extremely soft water? Are you using RO (reverse osmosis) water? What do you have in the tank to circulate the water so CO2 is distributed? You should consider getting a drop checker and some 4dkH water to see if CO2 level is adequate and is getting to all areas of the tank. If you have average water it's probably not calcium or magnesium. But as others have said that is easily fixed using various products."

My fixture sits on the glass tops of the 72... looks like 10 hours of light... I live in Corvallis, OR where the water is really soft... no just straight tap water...

I have eheim 2234 on one side with the straight output blowing at angle from back corner to front-middle of tank...

also have XP4 spray bar in back middle of tank that sprays straight forward towards front of tank... also have a powerhead on opposite side of eheim 2234 blowing towards front of tank... i have 2-3 other powerheads that I could place in the tank...

i used a drop checker with 3dkh solution and 2 drops of pH solution checker from my master test kit...

it was blue at first and turned green after being in my tank for an hour or so...

on opposite side of eheim 2234 that blows CO2 saturated water out... maybe I should have placed it lower towards gravel because that is where plants lack i think... but even my mid level red plants are struggling, stunted growth....

I just dosed 2 tablespoons of seachem equilibrium with water change... i dunno if that's making a difference... i've literally done everything possible...

I even put newer bulbs in my 265W CF fixture... I'm gonna turn my CO2 regulator up so it's literally a line of in the bubble counter... this is crazy... no matter how much I turn up CO2 I can't gas my fish? bs! how come I can't get enough co2 in the freaking water... this is crazy I have a inline 1000 on a BRAND NEW eheim 2234... with plenty of circulation I think... maybe I need more circulation down lower or something... 

we'll see... I'm PUMPING my CO2 up today...


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I've never seen one confirmed case of Ca++ deficiency in an aquatic plant. Not saying it cannot happen, just that even with the super soft tap in my area and around CA, NYC, a few other places, no one seems to ever have had this issue.

I have seen plenty of CO2 issues, pretty much every day.

Given this, It's exceedingly rare and unlikely it's Ca++, a nutrient that is very simple and easy to measure......versus a nutrient like CO2 which is much more difficult, and the ppm's move around several orders of magnitude faster/more variable than Ca++.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## three105 (Nov 15, 2007)

ok well I got my CO2 really pumped up and I don't really notice a difference... I really don't know what else I can do to saturate the water with CO2... you all know my setup by now... yet I can't gas my fish... I swear it's impossible... maybe I'll literally turn my co2 needle valve as far as It can be turned up later... lol.


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## three105 (Nov 15, 2007)

PLUS i've been dosing hella flourish excel... 

don't really get it.


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

three105 said:


> PLUS i've been dosing hella flourish excel...
> 
> don't really get it.


Be careful! Watch your fish closely. The fact that you can't see any response seems to me to indicate a CO2 issue. Shouldn't you have 4dkH water in your drop checker? Where did you get 3 dkH water? If you move your drop checker around to other spots does it indicate less CO2? Easy on the excel too. Might be possible to reach toxic levels not sure.


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## three105 (Nov 15, 2007)

i mean't 4 dkH water... but ya I'll try moving it around today...


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

three105 said:


> PLUS i've been dosing hella flourish excel...
> 
> don't really get it.


Look nutrients are a lot easier and more certain when it comes to providing non limiting amounts. VERY EASY to rule out.

CO2?

The most difficult of the plant parameters.

Even a newbie can reason through the limiting Ca++, simply add more and wait and see if that fixes it.

Do some water changes and re set and dose, repeat.
Easy.

CO2?
It's much more complex.
It's not just about CO2, since we have fish etc, which use O2, so it's both the O2 and the CO2, current, flow, water changes etc.

Try doing a water change about 1 hour after the lights come on, do say 60%.
Then dose etc.

What does the tank look like at the last 1 hour of the day?
Does it look like this most days? This is a good reference for the max growth/pearling, what it could be.

It's not likely you will get this much when the CO2 is set right, you can also reduce the light intensity, as this will reduce CO2 demand and it will reduce Ca++ demand or any nutrient for that matter.

You have several things you can do, not just add more CO2 gas, that's too simplistic. Fish should not be gassed due to poor CO2 management.

Use less light, increase surface movement, do water changes, dose routinely etc, clean filters to maintain good current/mechanical filtration etc, clean CO2 system to keep it optimal, use good quality CO2 equipment.

Adjust CO2 gas once you addressed the above, progressively and slowly, watch the tank, compare to water change day growth etc, adjust slowly and watch fish, or algae issues, plants etc.

Take your time adjusting this, no rushing.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## three105 (Nov 15, 2007)

ok but Tom... I've done all this...

I am able to turn two of the 65 W bulbs off and on, i.e. (130W power buttons CF 6700k)

I really don't get it... I saw exactly the same setup in portland... a 72 bow... glas tops, same light fixture... the only difference was the ADA soil...

it has magnum 350 or maybe a eheim 2235 on it.... with a spray bar and just a bubble ladder...

the plants looked like they were growing great... they would only dose the regular Flourish once or twice a week... water changes every week or two... maybe.

plants grow great in there....

maybe I'm dosing too many nutrients if anything...

here's what I have done...

I have had 3 powerheads in there at a time but took two out when I added the eheim 2234 with the XP4

I have increased surface agitation a little bit so it flutters at the top... no splashing ever...

I have added airline to power head at top that sprays O2 into the water...

I ALWAYS do 40-50% water change every sunday...

I have been always dosing heavy macro on sunday w/ water change

I have tried dosing heavy macro and heavy micro with daily flourish iron

I have tried dosing regular EI with flourish for trace by recommendation with daily iron

saturdays ALWAYS a rest day

I have tried 3 different light fixture harnessing methods (legs, no glass on top, glass top (currently))

I am never able to gravel vaccuum because of baby tears... I would easily suck them up but am gonna try using a smaller vacc soon to clean baby tears mulm build up...

The only thing I haven't done is put my airstone back on at night... I guess this could help with photo synthesis....


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

three105 said:


> ok but Tom... I've done all this...


Patience as well?



> I am able to turn two of the 65 W bulbs off and on, i.e. (130W power buttons CF 6700k) I really don't get it... I saw exactly the same setup in portland... a 72 bow... glas tops, same light fixture... the only difference was the ADA soil...


Well, once things are fine, no issues with algae or plants, then it likely should be pretty close, but you really are not sure/certain of the CO2.

No matter how much folks want to say they have gotten that down....hell, I'm not even sure UNLESS the plants are growing well.
I doubt you can be more sure that I am?



> it has magnum 350 or maybe a eheim 2235 on it.... with a spray bar and just a bubble ladder...


CO2 bubble ladder?



> the plants looked like they were growing great... they would only dose the regular Flourish once or twice a week... water changes every week or two... maybe.
> 
> plants grow great in there....
> 
> maybe I'm dosing too many nutrients if anything...


No, as any newbie can tell you, those are easy to rule out.
Bark up another tree. What is too many nutrients?
What does that look like?

I've heard this claim 1001 times, and every single time , without fail, I've been unable to repeat the claimed effect. That's a lot of repeating and long term experience.

For it to actually be true, we'd have to have seen it a lot more often and the test should be repeatable for EVERYONE, or almost if....that is really the cause.

I'd not be so sure of yourself.
Frustrated, perhaps, but not sure.

=> Light/CO2.



> here's what I have done...
> I have had 3 powerheads in there at a time but took two out when I added the eheim 2234 with the XP4 I have increased surface agitation a little bit so it flutters at the top... no splashing ever...


This is good then.



> I have added airline to power head at top that sprays O2 into the water...


Bad, stop doing this.



> I ALWAYS do 40-50% water change every sunday...
> I have been always dosing heavy macro on sunday w/ water change
> I have tried dosing heavy macro and heavy micro with daily flourish iron
> I have tried dosing regular EI with flourish for trace by recommendation with daily iron aturdays ALWAYS a rest day I have tried 3 different light fixture harnessing methods (legs, no glass on top, glass top (currently))


Try using less light, say 1/2.
Give it some time to settle.
Try 8 hours, not 10 or more etc.
Try adding screen to block some of the light.


> I am never able to gravel vaccuum because of baby tears... I would easily suck them up but am gonna try using a smaller vacc soon to clean baby tears mulm build up...
> 
> The only thing I haven't done is put my airstone back on at night... I guess this could help with photo synthesis....


Not much, but will help fish perhaps.

You still need to try less light.
This tank has 1/2 the light you have, close to the same size etc, apparently does quite well.










Try running the front 130W for 4-5, hours, then the rear for 4-5 hours.

This will make both CO2/nutrients much easier and less demand.
So in both cases, it will make it less stressful for both.

Good filter cleaning, good CO2 adjustments, methods etc, reasonable light etc.......they all work together.

It's not one thing, rarely is.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## three105 (Nov 15, 2007)

OK! something is really wrong...

I left my CO2 on last night by mistake... and no fish had any issues at all...

all of them loook great, the rummy nose face as red as can be... maybe the air place didn't fill my tank with co2 or something weird...


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## three105 (Nov 15, 2007)

and there is no surface aggitation really... a light flutter at the top but BARELY at all barely any surface movement at all...

doesn't make sense... my fish should have been gased last night by accident... I guess it's good for me.


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## three105 (Nov 15, 2007)

Update:

Added couple powerheads, rescaped, moved XP4 spray bar closer to surface, moved eheim outpot (co2) more to middle.... 

good current throughout tank... 

more light hitting ALL of the plants, no java fern blocking light really except for dark spots and shade that I want for contrast...

scapes coming together more and more. Just need to let things grow I think,

- Three


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## three105 (Nov 15, 2007)

big angel picking on smaller one... gonna go buy 2-4 additional angels to create a pecking order...

they don't have any koi's and that upsets me but I can always pull the angels out to get pictures of the 72 in the future...

I'll do my water change when I get back, cut the baby tears or maybe even scrap them all together...


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## sajata (Aug 21, 2009)

i am just going to pop this in here as a point of reference to GH/KH/pH.
in that depending on you GH/KH you will have different levels of CO2 at the same pH. 
and vise verse. i had another article that basically said at some point you can not dissolve anymore co2 if your GH/KH did not support the higher co2 levels. Cant find that one right now but i am looking.
PPS/GH/KH/pH/CO2


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

sajata said:


> i am just going to pop this in here as a point of reference to GH/KH/pH.
> in that depending on you GH/KH you will have different levels of CO2 at the same pH.
> and vise verse. i had another article that basically said at some point you can not dissolve anymore co2 if your GH/KH did not support the higher co2 levels.


I'm afraid that isn't correct. The CO2 level is what it is no matter what your GH or KH. While KH and pH can be used to calculate CO2 levels. That calculation assumes carbonate is the only buffer in the water. If there are other buffers in the water such as phosphates then the calculation is incorrect. That is why a dropchecker with a 4dKH standard is better at estimating CO2 levels than the pH-KH-CO2 calculation. If CO2 levels were affected by KH and GH levels in the tank, a dropchecker would not be accurate. Also, CO2 levels aren't affected by pH, but pH is affected by CO2 levels.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Jeff5614 said:


> I'm afraid that isn't correct. The CO2 level is what it is no matter what your GH or KH. While KH and pH can be used to calculate CO2 levels. That calculation assumes carbonate is the only buffer in the water. If there are other buffers in the water such as phosphates then the calculation is incorrect. That is why a dropchecker with a 4dKH standard is better at estimating CO2 levels than the pH-KH-CO2 calculation. If CO2 levels were affected by KH and GH levels in the tank, a dropchecker would not be accurate. Also, CO2 levels aren't affected by pH, but pH is affected by CO2 levels.


+1

There's a glaring mistakes in that article:
%N is NOT 13% of dry weight matter.
It's more like 1.3-1.5%
K+ is about 1%, not 6%
The rest are also way way off.
And what is other 29%?

Any citations or references?

This is not even remotely close to ANY dry weight % analysis for aquatic plants, let alone terrestrial species. See Bloom Epstein's Mineral Nutrition of Higher Plants, 2nd ed, 2005.

There's dozens of papers out there detailing % dry weight matter for all these, this is not in line with a single paper I am aware of. Fish and pH is irrelevant in context of CO2 enrichement, KH is the relevant parameter.

Three105, just be careful, adjust the CO2 *slowly.*
Wait and and see how the plants respond etc.




Regards, 
Tom Barr







Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## three105 (Nov 15, 2007)

I really think it's a light or CO2 issue but I don't really understand it... right now I'm running my CO2 at a really high CO2 bubble rate 24/7 but turning on an airstone at night and turning it off 1-2 hours before the lights come on...

still keeping my 265 W on full 10 hours a day but want to get more light eventually I have 95W CF over my 10 gallon rimless and it had the best growth I had ever seen with CO2 ever and the plants looked amazing...

Now that tank had ADA soil, was way lower, and had way more light per gallon...

Guessing my problem is not my CO2 but rather my Light with such a deep tank even with 3.6 wpg or whatever it is 3.4 or whatever... I still don't think it's enough for how deep my tank is... it COULD be my CO2 buuuttt... I have it way pumped up... We'll see how it is being on 24/7 now tho


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

three105 said:


> I really think it's a light or CO2 issue but I don't really understand it... right now I'm running my CO2 at a really high CO2 bubble rate 24/7 but turning on an airstone at night and turning it off 1-2 hours before the lights come on...
> 
> still keeping my 265 W on full 10 hours a day but want to get more light eventually I have 95W CF over my 10 gallon rimless and it had the best growth I had ever seen with CO2 ever and the plants looked amazing...
> 
> ...


I'm telling you, I use 1/2 this amount of light, I have awesome growth of all species, and my tank is are even deeper. Not only that, the lights are up over 1ft above every tank.

So it's like they are 36" away from the bottom tips of the plants.
You have to convince yourself, you have too much light to manage the other issues easily.

See the 60 Gal cube, 1.7w/gal, this tank is easy as pie to take care of.
Packed with 80 Brass tetras, 9 Leopard frog plecos, 100-150 RCS.

This tank here is a 70 gal tank with 1/2 the light:









108 watts on a 70 gal tank.

More is not better, it's more work.

Here's this same tank after not trimming for a couple of months:










Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

I have to agree that a ton of light isn't needed. Here's my 75 with 2x54 T5HO. My scaping and photography skills aren't so great and I'm not sure how the Dutch kinda look I'm going for is working out. But I am able to grow plants that are usually considered high light. I've found that CO2 is the key and with a lot of light it's harder to manage CO2 well.


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

plantbrain said:


> See Bloom Epstein's Mineral Nutrition of Higher Plants, 2nd ed, 2005.
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


*Sigh* another wasted day after reading one of Tom's posts.
I spent an hour finding a copy of that book online. Lost anther hour reading parts of it ... and buying a hardback. Then finally another hour reading about uptake in wheat of all things

Tom Barr = Destroyer of the work day.

- Brad


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

bradac56 said:


> *Sigh* another wasted day after reading one of Tom's posts.
> I spent an hour finding a copy of that book online. Lost anther hour reading parts of it ... and buying a hardback. Then finally another hour reading about uptake in wheat of all things
> 
> Tom Barr = Destroyer of the work day.
> ...


Search Epstein, % nutrient, plant tissue dry weight etc

Same stuff as listed.

Taiz and Zigeler plant Physiology, often a standard book for 3-4th year plant Science students has same references. Bloom teaches here at UCD.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Still, anyone ever seen a verified aquatic plants with only Ca++ deficiency?

It would be extremely rare in natural systems or aquariums where folks do water changes, feed fish, dose, have various sediments etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Nate McFin (Mar 19, 2009)

I too am from Oregon and can verify the soft water as a potential problem. I am not qualified enough to say that I can verify a CA deficiency in my tank but before I began proper dosing (including both CA and MG) I had leaves on a few of my plants (mainly amazon swords) that grew in white at first and then eventually became clear. Once I began using a GH booster (as well as proper dosages of the other nutrients) it stopped. I trimmed the bad leaves and did a major cut back. They havent come back yet! If this was the GH booster or one of the other issues I had is not known but the symptoms sure pointed to CA. Again..not qualified.
Of course now I have a red algae problem to deal with but one problem solved and on to the next I suppose. LOL


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## three105 (Nov 15, 2007)

I guess I'll use a lot less light and see what happens... I'll keep the CO2 flowing though...

and excel...


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## three105 (Nov 15, 2007)

trying 2 CO2 tanks today... one through Green Leaf Aquariums (GLA) largest glass diffuser and one through the Inline 1000 CO2 Reactor that is hooked up to a brand new eheim 2234 canister filter...

I have very little surface agitation and put AIR into my tank at night via powerhead or whatever with the air attachment... just on one side of the tank but still... should be enough air at night... i do get pearling on my java fern after I add macros lower the surface agitation and make sure eheim outflow is pointed downwards in tank... i tried using 130W CF lighting (half of my 260W fixture) after it had been on 260W most of the day... It seems a lot "dimmer" in the tank, definitely not as bright and nice to look at...

I'm compelled to figure out the problem... could this be my old flourite mixed w/ larger gravel pieces? like not huge river rock or anything... just larger gravel black regular pieces like black aquarium gravel... the pieces are bigger then flourite pieces... mixed about 50/50

I just highly doubt it because i'm seeing problems in stem plants that grow straight up... 

I just got red tiger lotus... the new shoot that it shot up towards the top is greenish still... if it doesn't turn red soon I'm gonna guess that my light has a problem... maybe my bulbs are too old but that doesn't really make sense because I'm pretty sure their brand new...

and the red tiger lotus shoot was nearly to the top... noooo wayyy...

maybe it's my gravel... not enough iron?

no I dose Flourish Iron almost daily like 1-2 capfuls... nooo wayyy.... well I guess my plants could be eating up the liquid iron...


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## three105 (Nov 15, 2007)

nevermind... gas place was closed today...


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## tivaj (Feb 12, 2005)

Hello,

any update on this issue? 
I am having a similar issue. growth does not take place and when it does, tips of the plants rot. i tested tap water and i found it 0GH and 0KH, though KH in the tank is about 3dk and GH is about 4dh. i started adding CaCl2 and Epsom salt. most of the plants started doing better, but with it algae that looks like BBA started growing. when i stop dosing CaCl2 and Epsom slats, algae starts receding, but leaf curling, stunt growth starts and death of new shoots starts. this issue started about 3 years ago...i know this is a very long time
by the way, i live in Saudi where water comes from the red sea through Declination plants 

Regds


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