# TMC Grobeam 1500 X2 or Fluval Plant 2.0 X2



## Jason Humes (Jun 27, 2016)

Hi
I'm having a rough time making the final decision between 2 TMC GroBeam 1500 panels and rails vs 2 Fluval fresh and plant 2.0 bars 48" A3992.

I know the fluvals are overall higher wattage and the TMC are much more expensive for the pair...is this a no-brainer and I just go with the fluvals or are the TMC lights that much better that they justify the cost for a lower watt light (about $300 difference out the door).

My tank is a 75G 24" deep 48"long with co2 injection and moderate plants...currently running two junk 'edge' panels.

Thanks


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

Hello, i am able to get 2 - TMC Grobeam 1500 for about 600$ in Canada, it must be about the same price as getting 2 Fluval's, even so, i think 2 Fluvals would cost me more. I do not understand when you say that the 2 Grobeam are about 300$ higher than 2 Fluvals, or there is something that i did miss.

As for the quality the TMC is much better and 5 years warranty if you register them on their web site. Fluval have 3 years warranty in Canada, but they do not replace the fixture before a certain number of leds are dead for example.

I currently have one Grobeam 600 and will probably get more of them this year (at least another one, maybe 2 or 3).

Michel.


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## Jason Humes (Jun 27, 2016)

Where are you getting the TMC GroBeam 1500 for in Canada? The only place I found them was in the US and after conversion to CDN and shipping the pair was $800 and the pair of fluval is $550...so $250 less.

Cheers

Jason


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

The only place i know is J&L Aquatics but their web site, do not show a lot of products as it did before. Normally if you send a note to them they should be able to get them. This is where i purchased my Grobeam 600 from.

In USA, i know DrTim's Aquatics and American Aquarium products sell them.

Michel.


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## Jason Humes (Jun 27, 2016)

So if prices were equal you'd say the Grobeams over the fluvals? 60 watts from Grobeams vs near 120 watts from fluval...are the grobeam LEDs that different that at half the power they still compete?

cheers


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

TMC have their own patent for their emitters, they are not the cheap ones used by many other popular companies I will not tell the name.

I have one Grobeam 600 over my 36" X 18" X 24" high tank with 2 other fixtures from other well known companies. I plan on at least remove one older fixture and replace with Grobeam(s).

Fluval, even 2 on a 24" high tank, I am not sure it will satisfy you. You may end doing the same as i did. Purchase cheaper leds then later regret it. Fluval is not bad it will grow plants, but this a lot of small emitters and you tank is high, 24". You need some penetration.

Those 2 sites, if i may, speak a lot about TMC and other leds too. They are biased towards TMC and do not hide it, if you want more technical.

https://aquariumopinions.com/

https://aquarium-digest.com/

Michel, forgive my english i am from Quebec


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

your certainly right in the fact that not all LED's are ceated equal.. That said TMC's "secret patent emitters' or whatever basically misleading "research" they do, well bugs me.
At best they use a certain "bin" from CREE, which is understandable and a "good thing" but not "magic"...
To be honest I might even like their lights better w/ a little humility.. 
Not to mention I'd need ind. verification of their PAR rating since it is too high for the other output measurements..but I digress..
Their diodes are 3w x 10..










Stick w/ FLUVAL...MY "opinion"...based on output and spectrum ..

BUT a more unbiased source AFAICT for your own judgement..
http://glassbox-design.com/2010/tmc-aquabeam-1000-hd-review-par/

@ 18" not 15.74" (400mm) but it qould be a bit difficult to hit 148PAR over a large area..AFAICT..








fluval PAR values:
18" 
#3990 57PAR 3,330 LUX	
#3991 66PAR	3,930 LUX 
#3992 82PAR 4,960 LUX

Note: .016 X LUX = rough est of PAR. and Grobeam just doesn't follow that pattern for some reason..
http://www.apogeeinstruments.com/conversion-ppf-to-lux/


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## Jason Humes (Jun 27, 2016)

i really want to like the TMC panels as they are using CREE parts, which I know from other LED grow lights I've got built with CREE parts which are amazing...but at the end of the day...30 watts per panel vs 60 watts per strip...sure the fluval is not using the high end CREE parts and probably only .5 or 1watt parts, but 120 watts over the tank vs 60 watts for a good deal less money makes it a hard sell for the TMC. Plus having to build out a mount for the TMC panels vs the fluvals which just drop on top and ready to go. I've got about 22" from top of the rim to substrate and my edge 70watt strip is just barely keeping things alive. I think Fluval is going to win the cash on this one. Thanks


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

Fresh & Plant 2.0 Full Spectrum Performance LED | A3992 | Lighting | Fluval

46 watts, 356 leds, such a shutgun approach i do not trust. That's not even 0,2 watts per leds.

I am not an electrician but how can they regulate voltage across such a number of leds.

They give a better warranty than most of the industry, but i prefer TMC. I just hope i can still get the TMC's in Canada.


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

I`m aware of your chosen 2 lights, but just wanted to pass this by you.
I run a TMc 1500 for the last 3 years & is happy with it, recently 2 months ago i tried a Kessil AW 160 Tuna sun on a new set up & all i can say is i`m a convert & a happy one at that.
Please note this is my opinion based on first hand experience & not judging from specs.
Tank at start up.








couple of months later


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

micheljq said:


> Fresh & Plant 2.0 Full Spectrum Performance LED | A3992 | Lighting | Fluval
> 
> 46 watts, 356 leds, such a shutgun approach i do not trust. That's not even 0,2 watts per leds.
> 
> ...


No it is a standard approach and quite effective. Trick is to match the PS closely to the V(f) of the ind. series string as to not lose too much power w/ the terminal resistor..
Then a bunch if equal strings in parallel..
Constant current drive is usually more efficient (as is "probably" used in the grobeam) but it can be minimal..

As to the real output at the diodes.. Less current the longer the life usually and oddly enough lumen efficiency increases as you "underdrive" them..though gross output decreases.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

charlie 1 said:


> I`m aware of your chosen 2 lights, but just wanted to pass this by you.
> I run a TMc 1500 for the last 3 years & is happy with it, recently 2 months ago i tried a Kessil AW 160 Tuna sun on a new set up & all i can say is i`m a convert & a happy one at that.
> Please note this is my opinion based on first hand experience & not judging from specs.
> Tank at start up.
> ...


o/p would need at least 2 for their tank.. 
Aquaticlife Halos will do just as good and well..


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

jeffkrol said:


> o/p would need at least 2 for their tank..
> Aquaticlife Halos will do just as good and well..


Have you used the Halos?
If so please share your tank pictures so we can see the performance in real time.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

charlie 1 said:


> Have you used the Halos?
> If so please share your tank pictures so we can see the performance in real time.


Others have. Use the search function.

Plants are plants and light is light.. Pure physics..


Here I helped..
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/982553-aquatic-life-halo-2.html









I take it only lights you use work?????


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

jeffkrol said:


> Others have. Use the search function.
> 
> Plants are plants and light is light.. Pure physics..
> 
> ...


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

charlie 1 said:


> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/982553-aquatic-life-halo-2.html
> 
> 
> The picture you posted did the guy use just lights? :smile2:


As opposed to what? Magic??? anyways PM him...ask
I generally build my own so I have no vested interest in any particular "brand"..though I do favor some parts..
Example of one that was designed w/ my help


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## Trigger334 (Oct 24, 2013)

Also note, if just one of your Fluval fixtures or others have an issue not within the limited warranty, the cost of replacement will end up being more than just going with TMC. The warranty has to have more than 5% emitters out and even then has to be sent back for a repair. About 16 have to go out for repair. Even having 1 emitter go out on a fixture will effect spectrum and lifespan of the fixture. It's also not water resistant, so if the fixture goes in the water, it's not covered and will be damaged. This happens all the time in the hobby. 

Also, don't get confused with the 1000s TMC information with the 1500 TMC information.

They're just two different animals when it comes down to it.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Trigger334 said:


> Also, don't get confused with the 1000s TMC information with the 1500 TMC information.
> 
> They're just two different animals when it comes down to it.


hmm..guess "it depends"...


> just to confirm TMC informed me that there is no difference in the Colourplus 1000/1500 other than rebranding. This would make sense when I was looking on an American site selling TMC products it stated the Colour plus 1000/1500 were the same. It confused me considering all the other 1500s are upgrades or different led colours.


TMC Grobeam 1500 Ultima Questions | Page 2 | UK Aquatic Plant Society


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

jeffkrol said:


> As opposed to what? Magic??? anyways PM him...ask
> I generally build my own so I have no vested interest in any particular "brand"..though I do favor some parts..
> Example of one that was designed w/ my help


Funny, you implied that is was not only the kessil light that produced results i got with the light ........
Very weak debater :grin2::grin2:
When are your LEDS going into production, don`t let your expertise go by the wayside on TPT, make some coin my friend.
Any way i`ll stop my derailment now & let you have the last word :grin2:
@ OP 2x kessil A160 WE Tuna Sun can be had for 600.00 Cdn + Taxes, with free shipping.
Kessil A160W-E LED Pendent (Tuna Sun) - Kessil LED Lighting - Lighting - LED - Aquarium Supplies - Dry Goods


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Kessils are fine if you like blue white to more blue white light...6000-9000k what a waste of engineering (opinion)..
Besides who is debating anything.. Just stating opinion..
light is light..there are no "magic photons".. given enough of them and you can grow anything you want..
ALL I said was this:


> Aquaticlife Halos will do just as good (as) well..


If that was threatening to you.. well not my problem...


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## easternlethal (Feb 13, 2016)

jeffkrol said:


> Example of one that was designed w/ my help


How many watts does this put out and how do you keep it cool? 

Also are you using reflecting or refracting lenses to deal with the glare?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

easternlethal said:


> How many watts does this put out and how do you keep it cool?
> 
> Also are you using reflecting or refracting lenses to deal with the glare?


about 170W and air cooled on linear heat sinks. Forgot the exact widths/specs. Sourced from Canada.
As to lenses:
As to the reflectors they were Carclo from Mouser..
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...252bUuCTPoY%3d
80 degree. Data sheet:
http://www.carclo-optics.com/sites/default/files/images/optics/10170_2A_171111.pdf
















The violets from StevesLED are "self lensed".
Quote:


> _Hi Jeff,
> 
> The simple answer to your question is that above 45-50 degrees the efficiency of TIR optics drops off which is why we offer a range of 20mm reflectors to fill in the gap:
> http://www.carclo-optics.com/optics-...ameter-20.0mm/
> ...


Pattern:









Most emitters are Luxeon Rebel ES run at 700mA I believe..
$1 each at eek bay. 
Cyan was dropped due to a screw up in arrival and a late exchange.	

ONE personal opinion.. Fans are the easy way out..though w/ some high density builds necessary. If it works w/out them.. yea!
Just having to replace the fan on our A/C makes me dislike them even more..


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## easternlethal (Feb 13, 2016)

jeffkrol said:


> ONE personal opinion.. Fans are the easy way out..though w/ some high density builds necessary. If it works w/out them.. yea!
> Just having to replace the fan on our A/C makes me dislike them even more..



do you have a rule of thumb you use to determine when a fan will be needed?


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## Jason Humes (Jun 27, 2016)

Im pretty handy with a soldering iron...what does the actual wiring of your diy panel look like? Is it glass protected or open? Thanks for the great info here


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

easternlethal said:


> do you have a rule of thumb you use to determine when a fan will be needed?


Heatsinking is an art and science all on its own so no, not really..
The best guideline is if you use the newer COB's or other high density chips fans are usually recommended (need is a slippery slope) 
good LED's are actually fairly robust but you can shorten their lifespan considerably by being too hot..Cheap ones die fairly easily though but that may be more a property of poor construction of the LED from the beginning..
For myself I just slap it together and use a temperature gun to check the heatsink temp. If no more than about 110-125F I'm good to go.
If too high I'll cut the drive current and see if I need more emitters.
Some say watts are watts but one chip running at 1500mA is harder to cool than 2 chips running at 750mA. At least that I what I believe. 
This is a good article in favor of fans..and really showing that yes, as density increases there is a need.. Using 3W emitters.. not so much from my perspective.
as I said, it is a bit personal. If you use fans, get good fans but no matter .. it adds "some" noise.. 
Cooling high-power LEDs: The four myths about active vs. passive methods | EDN
It's funny I don't like the noise of ballasts either.. Need to read the article.. 

Bump:


Jason Humes said:


> Im pretty handy with a soldering iron...what does the actual wiring of your diy panel look like? Is it glass protected or open? Thanks for the great info here


sorry, designed it but didn't wire it.. 
I'm pretty much a hack at that part..and my own tanks use glass tops so open emitters w/ all the wiring below the tank except for power wires to the diodes..Diodes lens-less and fully exposed
The one above runs 7 channels of light (2)WW, (2)CW ,R, V, B+W, Skipped the 8th for cyan. Well that was the orig design. I think some was modified to add a few more whites..not critical.


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

There are no magic photons but there are the useful ones and the ones not that useful. Photons in the green specter won't do much for photosynthesis, they give us the feeling that the plants are brighter because our human eyes see it better.

Light is light, but it is not that simple, there are many spectral waves that the plant's use and many that are almost not used by plant's and reflected back.

It is relatively easy to put whatever leds of many spectral waves and you will end up with something that can grow plants. However it will use more wattage for the same result, it won't be necessarly optimized. I think many photons/energy will be wasted. Sorry for debating, maybe it is not the good post for it.

Does someone has the spectral charter of the Fluval 2.0? I would like to see it. I am not able to find it, thank you. About the Fluval first generation those i know who had them in my local area were not fully satisfied even on a 18" high tank. Grow was "good, not bad", but not that great. It is not that i am not interested in the v.2.0, i just observe and wait. I am the kind of old skeptical guy, not easy, sorry my life's experience told me to always be questionning.

Michel, sorry for my english,


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

micheljq said:


> There are no magic photons but there are the useful ones and the ones not that useful. Photons in the green specter won't do much for photosynthesis, they give us the feeling that the plants are brighter because our human eyes see it better.
> 
> Light is light, but it is not that simple, there are many spectral waves that the plant's use and many that are almost not used by plant's and reflected back.
> 
> ...


Lets start w/ this:








Unrelated but mentioned earlier:


> This LED features a waterproof IP67 rating, which allows it to endure regular splashing as well as temporary submersion should it be dropped in your aquarium accidentally.


now, ignoring secondary hormonal ect effects of different wavelengths and just focusing in on photosynthesis:


> The seminal paper describing the action spectra for 22 plant species was published by KJ McCree (1972). This work was originally done in order to provide an accurate
> definition of PAR, which had not been previously described empirically. The action spectra described in the McCree paper plot the efficiency or quantum yield of CO2
> assimilation as a function of wavelength. Interestingly, similar action spectra were observed for the 22 plant species. However, there was slight variation between
> species in the blue end of the spectrum. The results from this work indicated that PAR was between 400 nm and 700 nm and that ALL (emphasis mine) wavelengths within this region
> ...


https://www.heliospectra.com/sites/default/files/general/What light do plants need_5.pdf

now for an idea of some differences..Keep in mind species will differ in response.








http://msue.anr.msu.edu/news/green_light_is_it_important_for_plant_growth

you may want to rethink some assumptions............. 


> Twenty-five percent green light could substitute for the same percentage of blue light without affecting fresh weight. However, the electrical efficiency of the green LEDs was much lower than that of blue LEDs.


a waste of energy is adding green inefficient LED's to any fixture..Most whites are green rich (by definition of white RGB)


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

Yes i know that, only a small percentage of green light is used by the leaves. They say it in the first paragraph. It does not change my mind.


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## easternlethal (Feb 13, 2016)

I think discussions about photosynthesis and kessils is missing the point a bit because kessils are really made to make the tank look good to the human eye and not plants. so the light is not only calibrated to achieve a certain spectrum that is wider and denser than achievable by individual emitters under water and to achieve shimmer etc...


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

easternlethal said:


> I think discussions about photosynthesis and kessils is missing the point a bit because kessils are really made to make the tank look good to the human eye and not plants. so the light is not only calibrated to achieve a certain spectrum that is wider and denser than achievable by individual emitters under water and to achieve shimmer etc...


What "looks good to the human eye" is subjective. To be honest it seems to depend more on CRI than Kelvin..


> calibrated to achieve a certain spectrum that is wider and denser than achievable by individual emitters under water


sorry, don't understand that at all..but the "crisp white" is preferred by many esp. in Asian countries..
An analogy to Kessil is ADA Metal Halides for FW.

That Kessils grow plants was never an issue..but so do many other lights..That Kessils are fairly "unique" in form and shimmer is also not in question.


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## easternlethal (Feb 13, 2016)

let's not use that word then. how about 'distinctive'? i think cri is only half of it. the other half is that the point source must be as small as possible (like the sun from where we see it). this is what i meant, and the reason why they make such a big deal about their 'dense matrix' and something diyers cannot replicate. not even metal halides.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

easternlethal said:


> let's not use that word then. how about 'distinctive'? i think cri is only half of it. the other half is that the point source must be as small as possible (like the sun from where we see it). this is what i meant, and the reason why they make such a big deal about their 'dense matrix' and something diyers cannot replicate. not even metal halides.


actually that "dense matrix" is fairly easy to emulate w/ the newer COB's IF one chooses to lens them as such..
Kessil is "unique" but not "that" unique. 


As I stated a dozen times, the problem w/ FW Kessils is they put a lawnmower engine in a Ferrari chassis.. 
Kessil was ahead of the curve at one point but really going behind now.. 
Before I built my first light Kessil was in my top 3 of lights to buy..didn't.. ;0

This is a "dense matrix" COB..160 LED's on that chip. Add the right lensing and you get a Kessil.
360¡ãRotatable 30W COB LED Downlight-LED Down Light-led downlights,led industial lamp,led floodlights.led tube lights,led ceiling light- Shenzhen Bescon Techonology Co.,Ltd.

Physics beats marketing every time.

I've come to the conclusion that CRI is most of it.. at least as far as LED's are concerned..though CRI "as currently understood" has its own set of problems.
http://blog.1000bulbs.com/home/is-color-quality-scale-better-than-cri
For fun:
http://www.rollitup.org/t/kessil-vs-cob.866965/\
CREE CXA COB:


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## Trigger334 (Oct 24, 2013)

All the talk about PUR....One important aspect is being missed. While there's different absorption rates for different energies per different plant, don't forget that energy has to penetrate through water, so now delivery is a factor and anything in the water effects the penetration, which is another factor. 

That's why high energy blue is important and really was the energy type that made growing plants under water, with reasonable watts possible. So, all energy can be used... getting closer to Infra-Red there will be less penetration, but this energy type is still important. It would just take more watts to get the same growth as high energy blue. And plants adapt, so they will convert energy types into the energy they need. Which could be a more or "less" efficient process.

Algae does this better than plants as well, which is why they will grow in high blue light, if CO2 is limited.

This is why I recommend high energy blue, but also a natural full body spectrum, like Nature. 

I'm still going to stand and say, with TMC's 13 different fixtures and all the perks, there's no better fixtures on the market.


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

Jason Humes said:


> Hi
> I'm having a rough time making the final decision between 2 TMC GroBeam 1500 panels and rails vs 2 Fluval fresh and plant 2.0 bars 48" A3992.
> 
> I know the fluvals are overall higher wattage and the TMC are much more expensive for the pair...is this a no-brainer and I just go with the fluvals or are the TMC lights that much better that they justify the cost for a lower watt light (about $300 difference out the door).
> ...


Fluval 2.0
Jason , here is a post by someone who knows a thing or 2 about lights & plants


> Hey Tlyons, Macabre, et al,
> 
> Just saw your message and am digging through my Dropbox file for the graphs I put together on the Fluval 2.0's PPFD measurements compared to the other main brands, but it appears I saved it on an external hard drive versus the cloud...d'oh! Off the top of my head though, Seattle_Aquarist's numbers sound right on par with what I saw (*rimshot*). I'll look for the files again when I'm off the road and home again, but I still stand by my claim that it has the most "photons/bang for the buck" of the fixtures I've seen and should easily provide high light on a 40B or 55gal...if you've got a deeper tank then you may need more than one light, a different fixture altogether, or less demanding plants. I don't personally run these lights because I've been blessed with a glut of other options, but if they all blew up and I had to head out and buy something tomorrow, this would probably be it. Color rendition is pretty decent too, and if it's mounted directly on a 40B be prepared to blast the CO2.
> 
> ...


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## easternlethal (Feb 13, 2016)

jeffkrol said:


> This is a "dense matrix" COB..160 LED's on that chip. Add the right lensing and you get a Kessil.


Can you share some specifics of such a build ? I'm up for the challenge. You can't change the cri or spectrum of a CXA afaik and i'm sceptical the result will look as good by just adding a couple more rebels or crees. Even with a lens I don't see how it's possible to match all the radiuses for example, if it's even possible to find lenses that can be that precisely focused or tilted.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

easternlethal said:


> Can you share some specifics of such a build ? I'm up for the challenge. You can't change the cri or spectrum of a CXA afaik and i'm sceptical the result will look as good by just adding a couple more rebels or crees. Even with a lens I don't see how it's possible to match all the radiuses for example, if it's even possible to find lenses that can be that precisely focused or tilted.


Well start w/ this:
https://www.amazon.com/Rosewill-RCX-Z300-92mm-Ball-Cooler/dp/B003WLZ1XA
And this:
CVM-18-56-95-36-AA00-F2-2 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey

Can't build a Kessil w/ fleabay chips..
Bit warmer but that is "to taste.". W/ the high CRI you won't notice that.
Considering Kessil just goes 6-9000K might as well be one color..
now a marine version is a different story..

Do you need the electronics???
2 choices, either a large Meanwell "all in one" or go conservative w/ an LDD-1000 and a 48V >2A power supply.

Lensing is a wee bit more difficult..but will give it my best shot..Give me a minute..Finding optics for this chip will take a wee bit of time..


> A350w the lens alone is sufficient to produce a beam angle of about 140 degrees and in the A350 a secondary optic in the form or a reflector reduces the spread to about 60 degrees.


OK I'll shoot for 60.. Probably need to use Vero optics..
but in the meantime:


> I own a couple of kessils. I haven't found them useful. The chip part doesn't have a shared phosphor layer like cobs do. Its just individual diodes packed close together. It relies heavily on 2 lenses to focus light. They operate really hot, I can't imagine they're efficient at all.


http://www.rollitup.org/t/kessil-vs-cob.866965/
Starting here:
http://www.rapidled.com/ledil-angela-round-reflector/
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct...VkXUys_xgbAjHUMlE_yJS4fA&ust=1467337481820543

CVM and CXM COBS are practically the same so any optics here should fit. 
http://www.luminus.com/resource/APN-002531_XNova_Optical_ECOsystems_data_sheet.pdf
.............
This should work w/ that COB. will double check later. A bit wider than hoped for :
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/ledil/C13032_BARBARA-WW/711-1246-ND/3516348


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## easternlethal (Feb 13, 2016)

jeffkrol said:


> CVM-18-56-95-36-AA00-F2-2 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey


I'm still skeptical a single COB will have as wide a spectrum as a packed series of emitters of varying wavelengths. The other builds I have seen supplement it with 1 or 3W cyans, violets etc.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

easternlethal said:


> I'm still skeptical a single COB will have as wide a spectrum as a packed series of emitters of varying wavelengths.


AFAICT the Kessil FW just has 2 types of white diodes..
And some say it is quite successful.. 
Kessil LED Lights










From my POV they are not even the best types of white.. 
One really needs some lower k's or a higher CRI (more red/cyan)
with the right "pump" and phosphors one chip easily becomes sufficient, though you lose that fun part of a natural change in K from dawn to noon and back again.
Just dimming a, say 6000k LED is NOT shifting K values, only intensity. 
http://www.yujiintl.com/high-cri-led-lighting








Be as skeptical as you like, but the Yuji emitters (note these are only .5W each) run rings around the Kessil as far as spectrum goes, yet it is not perfect either ..Needs 420nm..
SORAA violet pump lamps have some promise w/ a few drawbacks 1)need higher K 2) Needs wider beam angles 3) Seems efficiency is low and 4)A bit pricey as a DIY component.
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/led-soraa-ar111-flood/








This is a low K light example though.
nothing is perfect..



> The other builds I have seen supplement it with 1 or 3W cyans, violets etc.


That's funny. I've built them for myself and designed them for others. There is a good reason to do it that way. some is aesthetics, some is to make up for diode inefficiencies and some is just for play.. 
Still love the concept but see the tech drifting away from it somewhat.. at least as far as for plant health and an average static color.
WW.CW, R(all types), G (inc. cyan) , Blue (all blues inc "violet') 5 channel designs is still the ultimate color/light feast but one needs to know what "they" want and why.
One of "the state of the art" LED aquarium lights now has individual diode control for zoning, ect..


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## easternlethal (Feb 13, 2016)

jeffkrol said:


> Yuji emitters (note these are only .5W each) run rings around the Kessil as far as spectrum goes, yet it is not perfect either ..Needs 420nm..


Alrite then. Yuji it is. Can you recommend a lens/cooler to go with it? I'll build one and put it next to a kessil..


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Final warning before suspensions are handed out. I won't clean this thread up again.

This is a planted tank forum. Keep the discussion civil.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

easternlethal said:


> Alrite then. Yuji it is. Can you recommend a lens/cooler to go with it? I'll build one and put it next to a kessil..


W/ the 5730's you won't get the density needed really..There ar no COB forms of the VTc's
you can save a lot of time and effort using one of these at 5000K and 60 degrees..
https://www.earthled.com/collection...5watt-equal-95-cri-sr111-18?variant=896172765
Currently not available though.
Back to Yuji, ichy made a "spot" w/ the blue COB from Yuji.
See this:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/1052281-high-cri-high-output-violet-based-led.html
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/2...ilding-my-own-kessel-tuna-sun-similiar-4.html

Sooo you could use this COB:
BC Series High CRI COB LED - 400LS - 50W ? High CRI LED Webstore
50W 5600K one.
you can use any of these "kits" on eek bay..
*50W 100W LED Aluminium Heat Sink Cooling Fan+60°44mm Lens + Reflector Bracket*

Direct linking is not allowed to eek bay.


bottom line is that Yuji 50W blue based COB and lens heatsink will have better overall color rendering and more power than the Kessil..

https://youtu.be/L3LWXznJx_0









OR


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Update on the Luminous Devices studio 5600k COB and lensing..
Carclo lens


> Hello Jeff, The only thing we have that's close and will fit is the 12685 Newton reflector and 12796 holder. With an 18mm COB it should give ~50 degrees FWHM.


http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...tV54QlfabQ==&gclid=CJ2doZD4z80CFQ8kgQodA_8LJA
for:
http://www.digikey.com/product-deta...VM-18-56-95-36-AA00-F2-2/1214-1228-ND/4965748
Should be just as effective (but cheaper) as the Yuji, though lower powered..


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

Jason Humes said:


> Hi
> *I'm having a rough time making the final decision between 2 TMC GroBeam 1500 panels and rails vs 2 Fluval fresh and plant 2.0 bars 48" A3992.
> 
> I know the fluvals are overall higher wattage and the TMC are much more expensive for the pair...is this a no-brainer and I just go with the fluvals or are the TMC lights that much better that they justify the cost for a lower watt light (about $300 difference out the door).
> ...


This thread must be the definition of Thread Jack:surprise:


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

charlie 1 said:


> This thread must be the definition of Thread Jack:surprise:


I think the OP figured that out around 30 posts ago.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

It was done at post #8.............. 




> I think Fluval is going to win the cash on this one. Thanks


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## Trigger334 (Oct 24, 2013)

One last final thought about the TMC design, as PAR does seem to be a major factor when purchasing LEDs. TMC has a square spread, meaning it's going to get more higher lighting from front to back of the tank, where the strip lights have a high PAR right down the middle of the tank and once plants grow in, real can be blocked. I've seen this a lot in another planted group, where people have to end up purchasing two strips to get the front to back spread, rather than just go with a square fixture.

TMC's 13 fixtures really do give the best options out as far as high quality lighting.


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## easternlethal (Feb 13, 2016)

jeffkrol said:


> you can use any of these "kits" on eek bay..
> *50W 100W LED Aluminium Heat Sink Cooling Fan+60°44mm Lens + Reflector Bracket*



Hmmm.... any ideas on how to mount such a big cooler over the tank? i have a long passive heatsink similar to yours housing about 12 cree xpls pumping out 100W.. do you think 2 of those 50W yujis would fit there?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

easternlethal said:


> Hmmm.... any ideas on how to mount such a big cooler over the tank? i have a long passive heatsink similar to yours housing about 12 cree xpls pumping out 100W.. do you think 2 of those 50W yujis would fit there?


Should work fine.. but do you know the heat sink temp w/ the CREE's running full?

Unfortunately a lot of this is experimental. Even "pros" "do the math" then prototype to see if it is really what they "guesstimated".. 

fan cooled doesn't really need to b that big.. I suggest going over ichys thread:








http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/2...ilding-my-own-kessel-tuna-sun-similiar-3.html


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## easternlethal (Feb 13, 2016)

My sink is around 45 Celsius fully lit so it should be able to take it. But I'm not sure about the forward voltage because it's around 30v and I have 24v and 36v switching psus only (I connect to them to a constant current regulator). 

I'm also inclined to go for the 100w version because I need more than 100w total over my tank. But i'll probably need a fan if I do that


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

easternlethal said:


> My sink is around 45 Celsius fully lit so it should be able to take it. But I'm not sure about the forward voltage because it's around 30v and I have 24v and 36v switching psus only (I connect to them to a constant current regulator).
> 
> I'm also inclined to go for the 100w version because I need more than 100w total over my tank. But i'll probably need a fan if I do that





> Nominal Wattage: 50W
> Rated current: 1500 mA
> Forward Voltage: 28.8 - 31.2 V


46.8w
you really would be on the edge here but a 1500mA LDD-L may just do it (lists 30V as max out but 36V max in) 

The 100W chip seems to "need" a 3A cc driver 
I'd do more 50's than 100's
Actually pairing a high K and low K 50 is pretty ideal..

31x3=93W
4 50's at 1000mA (30w) is more in line w/ my thinking..
Ldd-h's (and 1A max) are a bit more universal and it will keep the heat down a tad. 1500mA ldd-l swap out would only be a $28 "upgrade" in the future.
120W and 11000 lumens approx..(75-ish percent of total lumens (at the low est) of full output 2 color chips (3200k,5600k)) 12,300 at the high end.

Need that 50 spec sheet though.


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## easternlethal (Feb 13, 2016)

I have a few lm3409s that can drive 100W at 3A so should be no issue there, but I use meanwell ms-250 36v psus which I'm worried will fry the chip. I think I can adjust the voltage down to 34 or maybe 33 but that's the lowest it will go. My lm3409s can adjust down to 1.5A too so maybe you're right that more 50Ws will be better. I will still have them same problems with my psu though. If it's possible maybe I can add a couple of 3V-3A 420nm emitters to it (405nms more likely). 

I read through ichy's thread but I can't use that build. The wife acceptance factor is too low. So I am thinking of housing the whole thing in black acrylic panels.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Power supply voltage doesn't matter as long as it is in the drivers range (and it is) and the driver is doing it's job, which is to current monitor and adjust voltage accordingly.


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## easternlethal (Feb 13, 2016)

jeffkrol said:


> Power supply voltage doesn't matter as long as it is in the drivers range (and it is) and the driver is doing it's job, which is to current monitor and adjust voltage accordingly.


I don't think that's what the lm3409 does because I've blown emitters when undercalculating the number of volts in my string.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

easternlethal said:


> I don't think that's what the lm3409 does because I've blown emitters when undercalculating the number of volts in my string.


Then it isn't set up right..

constant current drivers really don't care about string lenths..
My main power supplies are 48v or better and I can run 1 3W diode off any of them w/ a 700mA driver..

Start at post 86
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2131043&page=4


> The circuit acts as a "buck" topology constant current regulator, meaning it tries to maintain a constant current by chopping down the input voltage to some lower value. The way it does this is by measuring the current through a carefully chosen resistor, called the sense resistor (or current sense resistor, aka Rsense). In my schematic, this is R1. Basically, you choose a value for R1 to determine the current in your LED string.
> 
> So, the chip monitors current in R1. It effects the output current by switching the mostFET, Q1, on and off. If it needs to let the current climb higher, it leaves Q1 on most of the time. If it needs to let the current go lower, it leaves Q1 off most of the time.
> 
> ...


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## easternlethal (Feb 13, 2016)

I'm using this: Sure Electronics' webstore 300-3000mA Buck Regulator LED Driver for 1-100W High Power LED and I don't think there's any other way to set it up. 

Connect one end to the psu and the other to the string...


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Yea they are pretty straight forward.
I got no answer for you about that though, definitly not supposed to do that.
I do know if you hot wire some drivers their voltage is ramped to max out and won't respond fast enough to the string. Thus burning them out. This is a known
problem w/ some large LDD "all in one" (power supply/driver) units..
Point is to always have everything hooked before powering the driver.
not saying this happened, only that this is one of the ways for this to happen.


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## easternlethal (Feb 13, 2016)

Well what happened was one of the leds went dim and blue. And I read that typically happens when they overheat. So perhaps they weren't properly attached to the heatsink. Not because they were over driven.


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