# Keeping "Bunch Plants" Alive



## cah925 (May 18, 2007)

I've had problems with bunch plants simply being poor quality to begin with. $100 orders simply melted away within a day after planting. That was very messy and hard to clean up for the surviving plants. If the plants look good upon arrival, then there could be something wrong with your tank. What size tank do you have? Lighting? CO2 usually isn't an issue if you are adding some other source of carbon, like Excel. What plants are you having a hard time with?


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Do you take them out of the lead weight? I like to cut mine above the place they were bound at an angle and strip the bottom two - three sets of leaves. Planting individually helps as well. I have never used any kind of root stimulate, so I cannot say whether or not this is a good idea. Sometimes I will leave the stems floating until roots develop before planting them. However, this will lead to the plant not growing upright for a while.


----------



## customdrumfinishes (Apr 4, 2008)

what size tank and what kind of light is on the tank? 
what are the plants doing when they die? melting or turning to mush?


----------



## SearunSimpson (Jun 5, 2007)

I find with bunch plants, which usually pertain to stems, is that it is better to plant only two or three stems together, covering the desired area. By doing so, you are allowing light to penetrate all the way down. From experience and observations, stems that are planted in one big group (ten or more stems, all pinched together and then planted into the substrate) always seem to melt away, starting at (you guessed it!) the bottom, where there is less light penetration.


----------



## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Have you tried floating them for a week or two to let them get acclimated to your tank better and recover from the LFS?

-Andrew


----------



## leafshapedheart (Feb 23, 2009)

Hello..,
I always remove the plants from the lead weight before planting, and as per terrestrial plants (with which I have a lot of experience) I trim the plant stem on an angle above the location where the weight used to be, trim the bottom two or three sets of leaves, and plant them. I plant them individually, but space them a few inches apart. At this time I find they look dreadfully leggy, and I have to resist throwing them away before they even start to grow. I have had trouble with bacopa, hydrocotyle, water wisteria (which was doing ok until I went away for a week) and even vallisneria, among others, which, embarassingly enough, are all supposed to be easy plants to grow. And yet my Green Cabomba, which is supposed to be a medium light/medium care plant does well, along with crypts, swords, anubias which were all bought in pots. Living in Canada, I don't have very good selection of plants, and I've often bought them anyway despite my gut instinct that they wouldn't thrive. I have also tried floating the plants, hoping they would root while suspended, like a houseplant would do, to no avail. This problem is exacerbated by my large Weather Loaches who will uproot a plant (without damaging it, I might add) if they don't care for its location. The rooted plants stay rooted, but the stem plants get uprooted, but this doesn't explain how the same thing happens in my 20Gallon, in which there are no Weather Loaches; only Tetras, a Gourami, four small Kuhlis, and a Pleco, who never seems to move from his favourite log. The temperature in the 55Gallon is always 73, and in my other tank it is around 78. I am very faithful with gravel siphon/water changes, and this community has Reverse Osmosis water, which being low nutrient, may also be he culprit. I do use fertilizers occaisionally, and have begun using Excel, though I'm scared to use the Excel in my 20G because of the beautiful Watersprite plant I leave floating. Unlike the others, it is doing awesome. The stems of the plants in question usually start to die, one by one. The leaves begin to fall off, and the plants start to look soggy, at which time I begin to worry over water quality issues and throw them away. Or I have been known to clip the plant as it dies, and save the healthy part, only to have it die, too. The lighting might be the culprit, because the lights on the 55 came with the tank, which was second-hand, so I have no way of knowing how long they were used before I set up the tank. I plan on changing this right away and have asked in the lighting section for advice on choosing the right bulb for my set-up. However I also think original quality of the plants could be an issue, because it's always the stem plants that die. Thank-you very much for your advice so far..,

leafshapedheart


----------



## cah925 (May 18, 2007)

I had to get rid of my gouramis as they were eating the leaves of many of my stem plants. This doesn't solve the main problem, but mine would feast on any dead/decaying leaves until they were gone and then they started on the healthy leaves.


----------



## leafshapedheart (Feb 23, 2009)

Hi, cah925..,

I have indeed seen my Gourami "pecking" on the leaves of my plants, but I really like him, and would not want to have to get rid of him. However, my daughter has an aquarium, and she likes him as well. Perhaps I will be able to give him to her if I figure out he is part of the problem. 

Right now I am in the process of adding Laterite to my gravel bed, changing/ siphoning the water, and trimming my plants. (my hands are wet as I write this). I have realized I have made many errors (mostly just by getting the cheapest and easiest to obtain materials for my aquariums), and I'm trying to fix them one by one. I am stepping up my fertilization process, and have begun treating with Excel. I have already begun to notice a difference, after only just over a week. The next things on my list are completely changing the substrate, replacing the lights, and buying a CO2 system. The co2 I think I will do before I change the lights, but the substrate may take awhile, as it will be a lot of work, and I will have to special-order it, so I am doing the laterite for the short term. Do you think it is wise to get the co2 before replacing the lights?

Thanks
leafshapedheart


----------



## alexpk321 (Oct 27, 2008)

Leaf, I am sure once you get a decent plant substrate in there and a light source designed for plants, you will be fine. Personally I never believed in using Excel, I am a naturalist and when CO2 is so easy now to put into the water, why use another (un-natural) carbon source, which the fish may not appreciate as much as the plants? I don't know what CO2 source you are getting, but I like the Hagen/Nutrifin lattice system. I find it is inexpensive, easy to operate, you can instantly tell when the canister needs to be replenished, and can easily adjust the CO2 level. Of course if you are getting pressurized containers, that is the best. 

If you were using the light that came with the tank, that is almost certainly an important reason for the bad result, as the bulbs in these lights are not designed to support plants. They are just cheapies designed to throw some light in the aquarium. And when you think about it, why should they put expensive plant lights as standard when many aquarists do not keep plants? Remember 2-3 watts/gallon of water is a good rule of thumb. T-5 lighting is a great way to go when you are keeping plants. I would add the lights and CO2 at the same time, if things get out of balance algae will take the advantage. 

If you were using epoxy gravel, that too is an important reason for poor results. These gravels contain nothing to support plant life. I recommend Eco-complete but Flourite and some others are fine too. Flourite however, comes with a ton of dust in the mixture requiring lengthy rinsing. For additives I use only a potash mix and micronutrients (metal ions), in sparing quantities. 

Give the plants adequate light, nutrition for their roots and leaves, water of appropriate parameters, and they will do what is natural.. thrive!


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

Hey
I found that bunched plants are usually quite delicate at their cut sides. Usually I take the weights off and clip any unhealthy looking parts off. Then I plant each stem individually with tweezers straight down into the substrate. I just planted some R. wallichii into an established, technically low-tech tank (good light, normal gravel and sand mix, liquid fertilizer). The shoots are growing green (lack of calcium and CO2 but I'm working on that) but are growing well and the plants look very happy. I keep the nitrates higher, so the plants do get fertilizer other than the iron and mineral supplements I throw in. 

Back to my point, try to take each stem, plant it individually and space them so that each stem gets enough light to thrive. Light is the most important part, everything else is secondary, so I would check the lighting first if your bunched plants are dying.


----------



## leafshapedheart (Feb 23, 2009)

Hello Alex and Hobbes..,

Thanks for the tips.., The CO2 sytem I'm planning on getting is indeed the Hagen/Nutrafin sytem. It seems reasonably priced and I would rather use it than the Excel. Maybe in the future if I can afford it I'll look at getting something more high-tech, but for now I'm going to try the Hagen. It's good to hear it works well.

The light over my tank is an Eclipse bulb. It has the letters F15T8 after it, along with the date the ballast was assembled; February 2008. It is definitely time for them to be replaced. The light over my 20 Gallon is rigged up underneath the shelf it sits on. This light is only a Penn Plax light, which although it said on the box is beneficial to plants, I think is more just for viewing the fish. This tank did not come with a hood of any sort, so in the future, I'll have to get a different system going when I get a proper stand.

What kind of Potash mix do you use? I have never heard of this before, but my husband works at a potash mine (just started tonight) so if I wanted to get some pure, it wouldn't be hard, unless the potash has to be refined in a certain way before being used.

I also believe in being as natural a possible, but unfortunately sometimes the best way to do things is not the most economical. One thing at a time, I need to keep telling myself! 

leafshapedheart


----------



## Porkchop (Feb 9, 2009)

I have the same issues and I sure hope to find the cure quickly. I just bought a lot of plants from guys and gals on this forum and I'm watching them die off slowly. I believe that light is my problem right now and hopefully Fed-Ex will cure that issue tomorrow. I'm doing the DIY CO2 and I'm hoping that is enough to skim by until I can go pressurized in a month or so. 

I went with dual T5's at 39w each and I'm hoping it's enough for a 40 gallon breeder tank. We'll soon find out and if after all this, even going with pressurized CO2...I don't see my plants doing better, I'm tossing out the whole thing. I have 80lbs of Eco-Complete in my tank, alone by itself...and I dose ferts using the PMDD method or will be for sure after I get those lights going.

Good luck and I hope you find your problem. Maybe along the way it'll help me find mine as well.


----------



## leafshapedheart (Feb 23, 2009)

Thank-you, Porkchop, for your kind words, and I do hope you get everything figured out. I will continue to eliminate one possibility at a time until I find out what is going wrong, and when I do, I'll let you know, or hopefully, you can let me know first. Sometimes I think patience and perserverance are as much of an element as any equipment.

leafshapedheart


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

Hey guys, 

One more thing, here is a website that gives you a pretty good idea about your plants. Look for your plant and then see what requirements they are mentioning for the plant. 

http://www.plantgeek.net/plantguide.php

And again lights, lights, lights; granted your water needs to be good quality. Plant metabolism is determined by the light it needs and the light it gets. All the fancy stuff like CO2, fertilizer only are important if your lights are fine. 

Do you know what kind of bunched plants you bought? And what are your water parameters?

Simon


----------



## Porkchop (Feb 9, 2009)

I want to say that is an important thing, the water parameters. With that said, what test kits do you need? What exactly is it you need to test for and do they offer a kit that is complete for this...if so where do you get it?


----------



## TheRac25 (Nov 5, 2008)

yeah i dunno sometimes it happens i got a "bunch" of bacopa a while back it all melted except for one small bit less than an inch long that was floating in a corner. I found a small sprout coming off the side so i planted this and its grown into alot more than i had originaly gotten. I suspect that they had all been clippings from above water as they came covered with flower buds and the shock of being in an unfertilized sales tank and then going submerged was too much for all but that tiny peice.


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

I agree it could simply be the plant quality. How are any of your other plants?


----------



## Porkchop (Feb 9, 2009)

I don't want to hi-jack your thread, so Hobbes are you talking to me or LeafShapedHeart?

I didn't really have anything to start with and what I got was from members of this forum with high PTrader ratings...so I know it's NOT quality of plants. I got my light on today so we'll see if that was part of my problem.


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

Either one really. It depends on what kind of plants you have. Check if these have special requirements, or if they can survive a range of different settings. Also how deep are your guys tanks? the deeper the tank, the less light reaches the plants, obviously. 

In my experience, and this has worked really well, put them into a shallow "plant grower tank". I got a 2.5 gal nano tank with high lights (~10w/gal - a little overkill but oh well). All the really light sensitive plants I simply threw in there for a while until they looked nice. Then I transferred them. 

And then again you might have to ask yourself, if there are alternatives that might not give you so much trouble. 

Hope any of my rambling helps.

Simon


----------



## kotoeloncat (Apr 12, 2006)

I think it really boils down to you not giving what the plants need.

Do you use Co2 ?
You said you dose ferts sometimes ? what ferts, how much and which ferts ?
What kind of lighting are you using ?
and What stem plants ? theres alot of difference in the need of a hygro and a tonina.


----------



## Porkchop (Feb 9, 2009)

Well for myself, I've got a 40 breeder. I just put on 78w of T5 light today which I have listed in another thread on this forum asking for light suggestions. I'm doing DIY CO2 right now but I do fully intend on going pressurized. I bought the PMDD pre-mix and dose that a 1 drop per gallon every day, which I think is not enough and I'm probably missing something else. I put the light as close to the water's surface as I could get it.

My before setup was a 10K 150w MH light which I knew wasn't going to work to start with but it did support some plant growth. That is why I said I thought light was my problem.


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

yea i think right now the main question is if you can identify your plant. Like kotoeloncat suggested the species is the main issue, and one has very different needs over the other. Like I said, I'm growing wallichiis without much fertilizer or CO2 (none whatsoever) and any planted aquarium guy should rightfully so chew me out, but I'm lazy and the stuff is growing. What I do have is decent lighting and that keeps everything going. I actually threw out my H. difformis, because it grew way too much and I was tired of cutting it back every week.

A small plant acclimatization tank works really well, especially to make sure all the parameters are to your plants' satisfaction. And last time I checked, 2.5 gal tanks are cheap (if you consider 14$ to be cheap)


----------



## Porkchop (Feb 9, 2009)

Well, I've had some of about all of them, I think. I don't remember what all I got this go'round. I think most of what is dying right now is because I sold my light and then went about 4 days or so without a light on the tank, at all. So that probably had something to do with it, that and the light being wrong that was on there in the first place. 

While I'm here...what is the right way to plant stem plant clippings? With and without roots starting to grow... And nobody has stepped up with "what test you need to run"...


----------



## Tex Gal (Mar 28, 2008)

I don't think it matters whether you your stems plants have roots or not. Once planted they will get them. Most stems take a lot of nutrients from the water column. That's why ferts are so important, whether they come from the soil into the water or you put them into the water. If you leave them floating you will see them develop roots at each juncture where the leaves meet the stem. Some stem plants will do this even if planted, Ludwigia arcuata is famous for this, as are many. It just shows that they are utilizing the water as a source of nutrients.

As far as tests to run, you might want to make sure you have enough nitrates and phosphates. There is not test of potassium or iron. If you can dose EI then you know you are getting enough of everything - regardless of your substrate. Good luck!


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

no roots is fine. make sure the substrate is root friendly, but that is independent of the plants having roots before or after you plant them. And yes iron is important!


----------



## leafshapedheart (Feb 23, 2009)

Hello, Porkchop.., don't worry about "hijacking" my thread. Whatever you learn, I learn with you. 
If you are keeping fish, and I'm finding out now, plants, the tests we speak of will be beneficial, (and in many aquarists' opinions, essential). The main things we test for are:
*-pH*
*-Ammonia *-first byproduct of the nitrogen cycle, produced by fish through waste
*-Nitrites*-second byproduct of the nitrogen cycle, can be harmful or fatal to fish, even in small quantities
*-Nitrates*-third, and final byproduct of the nitrogen cycle, less toxic but still must be kept low by frequent water changes
*-GH *(General Hardness)
*-KH *(Carbonate Hardness)
These are the main tests, but there are also tests for Co2, Potassium, Iron, Copper, Phosphate, and others. Red Sea makes some of these harder-to-find ones.
You can buy them separately in liquid form, or you can get dip-testing strips that test for the five main conditions, but they are not as accurate. There are also "Master Test Kits," that combine the most important of tests in one kit. I bought mine individually until I had accumulated a master kit. These are great to have around so you can monitor your water quality. It is sometimes interesting and enlightening to test the water in the bags of plants or fish you get from the store. This way you can tell if there is any reason you should need to acclimate them slowly, if the water quality in your home tank and the one at the store differ. It can also tell you better than anything else what problems might arise, or help in the process of elimination if your fish or plants are ailing. I hope this helps.

Some more info on my set-up; it is 21" deep. I have been using the Flourish supplement, twice a week at the recommended dosage. Before this, I was using a trace fertilizer but the guy at the pet store told me only to give it once every 2 weeks. With the added laterite, Excel, and new fertilizer, I am already seeing a difference in my plants. Even the ones who were doing fine before are looking a little perkier and some of the plants are exhibiting new growth I did not see before. One of my sword plats has just put out a new leaf, and it is the largest and healthiest leaf I have seen on it yet. But by I now am pretty certain the light is the problem. I have problems growing plants in my 20 Gallon as well, but they are doing better there than in my 55. I think the water depth is part of the problem. I would like to change over to a 48" light, but this is going to pose a significant expense, and there are so many things on my list to overhaul this tank, it's looking like it might be cheaper to get a new tank! I might have to make due with the 18" lights it holds, and I'm inquiring around about how to choose the right one with this depth of water. Right now I don't have any bunch plants, because I don't want to buy any more until I learn a little more about how not to kill them. It would be great, Porkchop, if you could continue with this thread, and I can learn from you. It sounds like you are well on your way with the new light. I think that is the most important part

leafshapedheart.


----------



## kotoeloncat (Apr 12, 2006)

The basics of plants are they need 3 things

Nutrients, simply broken down there are macros, micros and trace. Macros are Nitrogen, Phosphates and Pottasium. The micros to start with Flourish would suffice. The trace elements can be dosed using Seachem Trace, follow dosing instructions on the bottle.

Light, there is much discussion on what light is good for what. If you are looking to go for lower light levels its fine. Try to aim for at least a 2 watts per gallon. If you dont know what watt per gallon is, do some search on the lighting section of the forum.

Co2 or a carbon source, excel will do for now, just follow dosing instructions. If you are unsure what you are doing, do NOT overdose.

The basics should at least get you to grow and let thrive some of the more basic stem plants, 

Here are some beginner stem plants that usually works and are almost impossible to kill (if you dont know what these are, check here)

Hygrophilla Difformis
Bacopa Monineri
Cardamine Lyrata
Hornwort
Anacharis


----------



## leafshapedheart (Feb 23, 2009)

Hello, Kotoeloncat..,

Thanks for the breakdown of fertilizers. That makes it seem a little more simple. I am familiar with the basic needs of plats, but terrestrial plants are so forgiving compared to aquatic. In fact I have found they often thrive on a little neglect and don't like being fussed over too much.

I have seen the macro ferts sold individually. If I were to use both Flourish and Trace, would I simply add the macros to this regime? Is it OK to use them all at once? (Not in the same day, but as per instructions?) I like to make sure I don't do too many things at once. 

Excel for me is only going to be temporary, until I get the Hagen CO2. Overdosing would be a huge concern, which is why I want to go this week to get the CO2. I would not want to harm the fish, but if I noticed them getting distressed, the first thing I would do is a water change and testing.

Do you know a good online source for plants? Next time I get plants, I would like to be sure they are of the best quality. I have also been doing a lot of research, which isn't hard because I love to do it almost more than anything.. 

Thanks,
leafshapedheart


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

There is a great online source for plants:

http://www.aquariumplants.com/

Very trustworthy and the plants look very nice. Also one thing that I have noticed, is the the lighter the green the more light the plant requires. Red plants require even more light. And the watts/gallon rule only applies in some circumstances. For example, the T5s have changed that rule up a bit, and the wattage would for example be different from incandescent bulbs compared to fluorescent lights. Really it depends on what light and what power of light (lumens) hits the plant. And get your lights straight and then think about fertilizers! 

Simon


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

Actually here is a test of your lighting (one that I found cheap and quite effective, the only thing it takes some time). Get some H. difformis, cut it into smaller sections ~ 5" and plant it into an open, not covered by anything section in your tank. Be aware that the plant needs to root and might need some time for that. This plant requires moderate to high light. If it grows well, your lighting is adequate for plants requiring at least this amount of light. If it grows more than well, you can go with plants that need more light. If it grows less than well.... you do the math. Or you could get a photometer and measure the lumen put out by your lights, then again I don't know if you can submerge that thing and have it still work.

Good luck

Simon


----------



## Porkchop (Feb 9, 2009)

I would recommend the T5 lighting to anyone at this point. And the fixture that I bought was the Hagen GLO system and it's fairly nice...cheaper at Foster & Smith than it is at PetSmart. I imagine that you could find this same fixture on Ebay even cheaper, seems like I did see it cheaper but I went with F&S for some reason? I believe there is one listed by Odyysea or something like that...but I read a lot of bad things involving fire with those lights or that name brand anyway...so I stayed away from that. And I went with just dual lights, two 39 watt bulbs and I think that for what I'm trying to do...that will be plenty of light. If not, I like this system so good I might just buy a second one.

For ferts...haha...I've been all around the block on this one I believe. At first I was just dosing some liquid stuff by Tetra, nothing even close to what my plants needed. I believe it was mostly iron but I can't remember off the top of my head what it was or what it actually contained. I can tell you it didn't work and the plants suffered. 

Then I got the Flourish...I thought I was doing something good but soon found out that this wasn't the only thing needed. So I went online to www.aquariumfertilizer.com and ordered the Plantex CSM+B, Mono Potassium Phosphate and Potassium Nitrate. I thought this was it...it was all I needed...but I guess I was wrong. So, I made another trip to that same sight and decided this time I'd get a larger selection so I'd have it if I needed it. This time I got Potassium Sulfate(don't know why), PMDD Pre-Mix 1 lb contains 1 part each of Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Sulfate, Magnesium Sulfate, Plantex CSM+B, Magnesium Sulfate and Barr's GH Booster. Why I got the GH booster...I don't know...but I have it if I need it.

So that right there rounds out my dry ferts. The only thing I'm dosing however is the PMDD pre-mix that is diluted by the directions on the package and sometimes I add the Flourish and I believe it's the Trace actually.  Which I'm already getting according to the pre-mix if I'm assuming correctly. So what am I leaving out and what should I add to the stable of ferts I already have?

I believe light was holding me back to an extent...that should more than be taken care of now as both my bulbs are 6700K pieces. And for the time being I'm doing one DIY bottle of CO2 and I'm going to add a second one just as soon as the silicone dries. This will only be a temp solution until I too get my pressurized system. So basically...I got the fundamentals that are needed to grow plants and have them do well, right?

I've got the test kit that test for NitrAte and NitrIte, PH and upper level PH and Ammonia. So I need a few more test from what I gather. I have no way of measuring the CO2 in my tank...so I need to figure that one out as well. And unless Fed-Ex explodes tonight...tomorrow I should have my timer system for my lights so I can get them on a regular schedule as well. 

I don't want to jack your thread...so I appreciate you giving me the green light to keep going. I just saw you had the same issues I'm having and thought it might be better to jump in and not start another topic about the exact same thing, thanks. Hopefully we'll figure out what we're doing wrong here. I have to say that the folks on this forum that I've bought from...yielded excellent looking plants. I got nothing that looked anywhere close to bad...they were beautiful clippings up until I put them in my tank  

Through this whole terrible experience I've had one Amazon Sword plant that has hung in there. Even when I got ticked off with the hair algae I had and dosed the tank with algae killer...it hung on for dear life. Once I got that crap out of my water...it actually started growing back. Hopefully now I'll see it really take off even though I know it's a slow growing plant. OH...and yeah I keep fish in this tank...a ton of them.


----------



## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

I think you have received really good advice and suggestions and most of it applies to remedying your issues. 

In my experience, I believe that when you purchase plants and there is some difference in the water parameters between the water the plants were kept in and your water, it would be not unsual to see melting of plants, stem or otherwise. I would be something similiar to what terrestrial plants go through when they experience transplant shock, or if you took a wild plant grown in totally different soil and conditions and transplanted it to your backyard or pot. How quickly the plants rebound likely depends on your tank and how healty they were to begin with. If you buy a unhealthy dieing house plant and pamper and give it some TLC it may rebound or it may not. If you buy a very healthy house plant and and pamper it and give it TLC, it will probably explode with new growth. If you have everything at optimal, fets, lighting, and c02, they will rebound faster and and begin growing again. One thing that I observed some plants that I purchased on-line or from elsewhere often melted in my tanks never to rebound. They arrived looking healthy, so I doubt it was the wait time in tansit. The exact same plant species locally grown in city tap water and purchased from local suppliers surprised me as they literally thrived and exploded with new growth in my tanks under the exact same conditions. There was no initial melt of plants. Now, I purchase all my plants locally and I have never experienced the problem again. 

As far as substrate, when I first didn't know anything about plants, I set up that 40 gallon tank as per my signature, with a mixture of the existing gravel and Schultz Aquatic Soil(BIG MISTAKE) To this date, it is difficult to get anything to take root in that substrate including carpeting plants. If I could do things differently, I would have first layered about 1/2" of pool filter sand on the bottom, capped with Schultz Aquatic Soil and I suspect this would have help the plants root as I have never had stem plants not root in pool filter sand. Now, my aquarium is doing great I have plant growth to the point where I can barely keep up with the trimming. But the plants, including stem plants are free floating as they will not root or stay rooted in my substrate. Having everything balanced is keeping the plants healthy as they are getting their nutrients mostly from the regular fertilization of the water column but not from the substrate. Lol, thank God, aquarium plants can obtain their nutrients from either substrate or water column or all my plants would probably be dead by now. 

I am running a little experiment in this tank, just out of curiosity. With the extra growth of the stem plants, I am placing some ADA Aquasoil in a plain plant pot, planting them and concealing the pot in the jungle, to see how the planted stems compare to the free floating stems in terms of growth and health.


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

thats sounds like a very solid base (don't forget the test for KH and GH mainly also so you can figure out your CO2 content in the water). Here is a nifty website that does the calculations for you:

http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/CalCO2.asp?pH=6.7&KH=3&co2=0.00

Furthermore, it sounds like your system is going to work very well. One thing if you fuss about your plants too much, you will actually do more harm than good. Amano says don't trim them in the first three months after planting, that might be long, but the master has spoken. (maybe im also mixing up numbers here) I've found that leaving your plants be works really well, once all parameters are fine. I used to have a large 100gal tank in Germany and had a hell of a lot of swords in there. (this was a while ago so I was also much younger) As soon as I didn't care much anymore about the plants and what they were doing, and stopped regular water changes, my cories spawned and my swords bloomed. So there is some means to the madness, backing off a bit does work. But then again you have to be comfortable with the way your tank runs.

Hope any of this helps.

Simon

P.S. how heavy is your bioload? you nitrates might be fine without the added nitrates from a fertilizer! test!


----------



## Porkchop (Feb 9, 2009)

I've got the 80lbs of Eco-Complete in my tank but honestly I don't think it's all it's cracked up to be, I think I should really consider changing it. It's not that old...maybe 6 or 7 months at the most? The main reason I went with it is I like black substrate and I didn't like the idea of layers and it all becoming mixed up together. I guess that would happen if you weren't careful with your planting or whatever...I was told to NOT gravel vac a planted tank. But recently...I had no choice but to do so. 

I have a very large fish load in my tank, too many probably. But usually...my nitrAte and nitrIte levels are within reason and seems to be fine. I think my PH is a little on the high side, it's usually up around 8 but I'm not sure how to go about bringing it down. I hardly ever see any ammonia in my test...I guess what little is there is being sucked up by the plants. I did make the mistake of dry dosing and dosing TOO much and got some rather hefty spikes on my test afterwards. So I did some water changes and got that back in line and then decided that maybe the PMDD method was the route to go.

Right now...40 drops is about 1/2 a teaspoon...so I figure at the most 1 teaspoon should be enough. I've been doing that for a few days now and I'm going to test the water this afternoon to see what the levels are. I'll report them here after I get the results. I'll also go through my dry ferts and make sure I listed everything correctly and maybe see if I can get some input on how to dose the stuff by itself instead of the pre-mix PMDD method.

I usually do a weekly water change of about 50%...but I do fall off that from time to time and just let it go. Usually when I get put out with the tank and all the dying plants, I just loose interest in toting all those buckets of water and messing with it. Then I usually get to see my algae farm take over again and then it's about a weeks worth of steady work to get it straight again. So that isn't working out too well and I guess I need to stay on top of the water changes.


----------



## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Porkchop said:


> ...I've got the 80lbs of Eco-Complete in my tank but honestly I don't think it's all it's cracked up to be I think my PH is a little on the high side, it's usually up around 8 but I'm not sure how to go about bringing it down...


There are/were bad bags of a bad batches of Eco-Complete floating around. 
Check out this thread.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/substrate/17212-caution-high-phosphate-levels-corrupted-eco.html

Your symptoms may well be due to a bag bag of Eco-Complete. Oldpunk78 suffered a similar fate before he found out that his issues were due to a bad bag of Eco-Complete. He was able to get an exchange and his problems cleared up.


----------



## Porkchop (Feb 9, 2009)

I got mine awhile back and I've not experienced the things listed in that thread, but I appreciate it. I just think I'd be better off with something more fine and maybe actually do layers of something. I feel like there is something better than just plain Eco and I'm not real happy with the way it looks. Plus I've had a ton of snails to die, my fault cause I was trying to kill them off, and now their shells have littered my tank floor.

I just don't know what I'd do with all those fish in the meantime...I guess buy up some 5 gallon buckets and some air pumps? I thought I had enough fish to not have to dose ferts, I mean I probably have 75 or better in this tank, a 40 gallon breeder. So I'm seriously over-stocked. I also thought that many fish would help up the CO2 level but I guess not.


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

I'd go with less fertilization to see what the water parameters are once you test just the water without fertilizers. If your getting an algae bloom then something isn't right. Phosphate is a good one to start with, but anything else might add to the problem. What is your KH? and throw some PH down into your tank to maybe get the pH to neutral?! then if you think your fish are too many, buy a butterfly fish or an eel (fire eels work great) they will reduce your fish population. Or you could just catch some fish and taken them to your LFS. But for now, I would try to figure out your water quality without any fertilizer so that you have a good picture of you base levels. Then also make sure that there are no species in there (ammonia or others) that melt plants. I have made the experience, with ammonia that it melts stem plants. I melted a bunch of Cabomba carolina that way. They looked like crypt melt and went at about the same speed (like dissolving steel wool in HFA).


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

Actually I like eco complete. great substrate for the price. But i do layer with regular garden store bought top soil. Just make sure none of those annoying while floating pieces are in there. they are a b**ch to get rid off and they pop up once in a while just to annoy you. (also they clogged my filter once)


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

Sorry that should have read "white floating pieces"


----------



## leafshapedheart (Feb 23, 2009)

Hello..,

Yes, the white pieces in the soil would be annoying.., they are most likely pearlite or vermiculite. Good for terrestrial plants, but have no use submerged. Part of their purpose is to retain water, though it's a little more complicated than that. I would go with a soil that doesn't have pearlite or vermiculite included. I have bought this "natural" soil and mixed my own with pearlite, vermiculite, peat, etc.

There is definitely some good advice here. Thank-you, Homer, for explaining this on the terms of terrestrial plants. It makes a lot of sense to me; when a plant is taken from one environment and put into another, it definitely goes through shock, even if the new conditions are better than the old. I think that right there is part of my problem, because I live outside the city where I buy my plants. It is the GH and KH which are vastly different, the city's being 100 and 100, and mine being 10 and 30. It is reverse Osmosis water, and though I have acclimated my fish and they are all doing great (I stick to soft-water species) I have not been so careful with my plants. Could I acclimate them the same way as I do my fish? I float them in a bag for 20 minutes or so, to get them used to the temperature, and then I begin to add small amounts of my water to the bag. I have also tested my Nitrates of late, and they are 0. (or at least the colour has not changed to 5ppm, so it is under 5.) I have not finished stocking this tank, and it is ridiculously lightly stocked. (I see new fish in the near future...) I think my next step here is to learn how to condition RO water to be more suitable for plants. It has certainly posed a bit of a concern for me as well with regards to CO2. I have wondered if it might be wise to try to raise the GH and KH a bit when using CO2.

Between this and a couple of other threads I have posted, there is a lot to think about here. In the short time I have been on this site, I have learned a lot, and I hope it never stops! I had an Instructor in College and he once said to me; "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, and YOU are a VERY THIRSTY HORSE." My first thought was "You can lead a mind to fodder, but you can't make it think!"  LOL!

leafshapedheart


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

KH should be a bit higher, GH depends on the plants. and likely your plants might need a little longer to acclimate than a couple of hours. KH buffers your pH and stops quick fluctuations. Especially when you use CO2 you might want a buffer, although the CO2 in itself will raise the KH invariably. and with the plants, some might simply not be fit for your tank. There are always alternatives that look similar, but have different requirements. If all fails, try small amounts of plants, throw them in and see what survives. Then get more of that species.


----------



## leafshapedheart (Feb 23, 2009)

Hi, Hobbes..,

You are right about that. I think experimentation coupled with research will be most important when choosing plants. I tend to prefer fish from soft-water areas, and I like to try to replicate the natural environment. This might make it easier, but I think it still comes down to trial and error sometimes. A plant that has absolutely thrived in my tank is Crypt Balansae. It looks great, along with my WaterSprite plant. Those are two I would definitely get again if I could find them. Stem plants are the ones that have suffered most.

I have been surprised that with GH ad KH so low, that my pH does not fluctuate. I have asked on Water Parameters how I might raise these numbers, because I think it's a topic unto itself. I have also asked for advice on how to acclimate my plants.

Thanks for all your help!

leafshapedheart
P.S. I love your picture. What kind of fish is that? It looks much like a goby.


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

Hey leaf,

Picture is a desert goby (chlamydogobius eremius) small Australian goby, which I breed (they are some of the few fish I came across with a real personality; one of my males I feed by hand).

Your KH can be raised by throwing in baking soda, GH by e.g. crushed coral or if you have it Ca2CO3. 

To figure out how much soda you need for your KH go here: 

http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/calKH.asp

but actually I would advise not to do anything about it if your pH doesn't fluctuate. If it works ok there is no reason to 'fix' it. you might make it worse! and I used to have water sprite I think, all I did was cut off the leaves at the base and let them float at the top for some time. They'll grow roots and you can then plant taht


----------



## bluefloodlight (Feb 20, 2009)

This is embarrassing, but can someone explain what the "water column" is?


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

the water column is referred to when one talks about a body of water from top to bottom sediment. It is somewhat like a cross section of the water and you can refer to anything that goes on at different depths. I'm sure google also has something to say.

Hope that helps.

Simon


----------



## Porkchop (Feb 9, 2009)

Well, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink...that is unless you brick him. That is a joke I heard as a kid...take two bricks and get behind him and...well you figure the rest out. Personally that sounds like a receipe for a face kicking...but the old man that told the joke didn't have horseshoe prints on his face, so go figure.

Anyway...

I see right now that I need a test kit for GH and KH then...and one for phosphates. That should round that out for me and give me a good idea of where I stand. Or I guess I would contact the water company here in town and ask for a report on the water, would that work? 

Now am I right in assuming that PH is lowered as CO2 is dissolved in the water, doesn't that bring the level down? And which hardness is it that acts as a buffer again...did you say KH? Or did you say that KH would raise it back up and in turn that could be used to stablize it at a certain level? And so you could add crush coral intended for a saltwater tank to lower the PH, is that right also? Doing so if CO2 introduction didn't lower the waters PH enough or any at all?

See, I'm at a toss up as to what the PH should be in the first place. I know the plant index on this site shows the ranges for certain plants and 7 being ideal for fish. Personally I think 7 would be ideal for both plants and fish, especially if the plants range is above and below 7 in the first place, right? 

I'm going to test my water and then I'll come post my results. That should be a fair jumping off point I guess considering all the information that has been posted here so far.


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

sounds good, KH is the one that keeps the pH buffered, and yes most likely adding CO2 will lower your pH, or more or less definitely will lower your pH. I have found that most plants actually like a bit of sour water, my pH in one tank is around 6.8 the other tank has 6.5 and both tanks have good looking plants. 

And the crushed coral is to manipulate your GH your general carbonate hardness (measures CaCO3). adding crushed coral will very little do anything about your pH. 

And yea I would go with a general test, see what your baseline levels are and then go from there. and also , if you don't want to test the stuff yourself, your LFS should provide you with a general water quality test, and they can also then help you interpret it, but I am also happy to help you with whatever you need. And i have never tried asking the water company about water levels, but that sounds like a great idea, since they probably have much more precise instruments to measure the water quality than hobbyists do. 

About the pH, I would recommend it to neutral or a bit below, but then again it really depends on the different plants your like to raise. I usually have one or two favorites, who I care for and adjust my water parameters for them. Anything else that grows along with them is great, if not oh well I'll find something else. 

Any other questions feel free, or if I'm being unclear, also let me know.

Simon


----------



## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Well, water parameters in my experience are important as things have to be within a certain range to get decent plant growth. But don't fall into the trap of thinking or believing that water parameters are the be all and end all of growing plants. Far more important is lighting(and that does not always been very high intensity or long duration as you will likely end up with an algae bloom), c02 injection(preferably pressurized if going high tech) and a all encompassing comprehensive fertilization routine like Estimative Index that can be modified, fine tuned, or tweaked for your particular tank.
Also keep in my that if you want good test kits you will have to pay a pretty penny. And if you use the cheap ones you will have to make sure that you calibrate them to check for accuracy.

Case in point, when I was bit by the water parameter bug, I set up the following tank and tested water parameters monthly for a year. Plants grew great and at different times, algae reared its ugly head eventhough water parameters remained consistent and within what would be considered "ideal" for plant growth. The algae puzzled me and I tried all redemial action to get rid of it to no avail. Finally, the simple act of changing the bulbs over to lower intensity bulbs, caused the algae to recede with no other intervention. Who would ever thought that such a simple solution would work. Check it out for yourself. I did not update. The tank is still running and full of amno shrimp. Plants are growing and there is hardly any algae.
http://azdhan.googlepages.com/thelostworld

This hobby does not have to be complicated. It is only as complicated as you make it and that is the most valuable lesson that I have learned. Stick to the basics and you will be fine.


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

Homer has an excellent point here. Less does mostly more in my experience. Do too much and you will actually screw more up than you do well.


----------



## leafshapedheart (Feb 23, 2009)

Got to love those fish with personality! My personal faves are the Bottom-Dwellers (Loaches, Garras, Gobies, Catfish) so much so, that I find it hard to stock the rest of the tank! My Loaches and Garras eat from my hands, too! It's awesome! I have never kept Gobies, but I think they would fit in with my other fish quite nicely. Awhile back I had the opportunity to purchase some Peacock Gudgeons, but I was unable to find much informatio on them. How do you keep your gobies successfully?

Yeah, you're probably right about not messing with the params if they remain stable. Once I add the CO2, I will probably be paranoid and do a lot of testing, though!

Hi, Bluefloodlight..,

The water column is simply the water. I think it is referred to as such here mainly to differentiate from other methods of fertilization, such as fertilizing the plants from beneath with nutritive soils or tablet fertilizers placed under the substrate. When referring to "water column dosing" it means the fertilizers are added to the water, either by simply dumping, by syringe, or adding it to water that will be put in the tank. Sometimes I hear "water column" also in reference to where a particular fish may swim; top, middle or bottom. Please don't be embarassed, as the only "stupid" question is the one you don't ask. There is so much terminology it can be confusing. I guess us Aquarists have our own brand of jargon! Sometimes it is easy to forget we are specialists, too!

leafshapedheart


----------



## leafshapedheart (Feb 23, 2009)

Wow..,

It must have taken a long time for me to write that (in between feeding a dog and letting him in and out and chasing my 3-year-old and cleaning up the water she spilled everywhere) because there was a whole other conversation going on when I got done!

I think I will probably end up doing a lot more research before I totally overhaul the tank. I would like to do a medium-light, medium-tech, so to speak, tank. I like things to be somewhat complicated, but I don't want to set myself up for failure by going to fast too far. Doing something that requires a certain amount of maintenance appeals to me, but I might just have to face the fact that I don't have a lot of money.

leafshapedheart


----------



## Porkchop (Feb 9, 2009)

Ok, first off our water company sends out a water report every year or so I believe...I just don't know where my copy is right now. So I'll pester them until they find a copy to give me.

Alright...tank conditions :

NitrIte - 0ppm (light blue on my test kit)

NitrAte - 5.0ppm or less (dark yellow to light orange on my test kit)

Ammonia - 0ppm (yellow on my test kit)

PH - 7.2 to 7.6

PH High Range - Closer to 7.4

---------------------------------------------

Tap Conditions :

PH (Both high and standard) - Same conditions as above (?)

Ammonia - 0ppm

NitrIte - 0ppm

NitrAte - 0ppm

----------------------------------------------

I was surprised to see my tank PH as low as it is because it's usually much higher but I guess the DIY CO2 is bringing the level down. At the same time...my tap PH is lower than usual also and I've not done a water change in a few weeks now. As expected tap conditions are all 0 which comes as no surprise to me. I expected tank conditions to be slightly higher than they are considering I've been dosing ferts for almost a week now.

On a side note, the ferts I have are : Barr's GH Booster, Plantex CSM+B, Mono Potassium Phosphate, PMDD pre-mix, Potassium Sulfate, Potassium Nitrate and Magnesium Sulfate. 

There is no Mono Potassium Phosphate in the PMDD pre-mix...which tells me I'm not dosing any phosphates into my tank. I think it's best to play it safe and wait to dose this after I get a test kit to test for them. Or to dilute it down using Chuck's calculator to get the amount per dose for the target level of .5 to 1.0ppm. Is that level correct? Correct me if I'm wrong. But then that still leaves the question as to what the level is now and how long it takes for the level to lower so I need to dose again. So a test kit for this is a must.

A real stupid question here...Eco is suppose to supply iron to the plants. If there is a doubt in my mind that I have enough...can't you drop a nail into your tank and allow that rust to put iron into your water? I know that probably just ruined any creditability that I had up til now...but it's a question I can't help but ask. 

And then I guess that leaves the GH and KH levels that need to be checked. I assume that if the water company can give a report with those levels...that they will not change once the water is in the tank. I assume the ferts won't effect that and the PH won't effect it either. Or am I assuming wrong?


----------



## Porkchop (Feb 9, 2009)

Oh and my test kit is by API...it's test tubes with the bottles you add drops into the test tubes with. No dip strips though I did have some at one time for my pool...could use that to test my chlorine levels cause I have "city water"...


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

hehe the nail is a great idea, the problem is that the iron from the rust might not be the iron the plants need. Botany was some time ago, but plants can't use Fe2O3 or FeO (the rust). They need the iron in a special form and rust doesn't provide that. And your water quality is very good. leave it !! find out the KH and GH and other than that I would think your lights might not be powerful enough for some plants. see if your new lights will make a difference.

Simon


----------



## Porkchop (Feb 9, 2009)

For sure 78 watts of T5 plant lights will be enough, wouldn't you think? I'll see what I can find out about the GH and KH. I'm trying to figure out how to build my own drop checker to give me some idea of what my CO2 level is right now. Seems easy enough to do from what I've found by asking Mr. Google.

So basically do you think I should continue the 5ml of the PMDD pre-mix daily? What about the phosphates...get a test first or try minimal dosing?


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

what kind of algae are there. and are they blooming, or jsut hanging out? and i would continue, since your base levels are fine, and stopping might actually introduce completely other changes and problems. I'd rule out stuff one by one.


----------



## Porkchop (Feb 9, 2009)

Personally the only algae problem I have is hair algae...I think that is what it is. But right now it's not really there anymore and I'm not having an algae problem. It'll pop up when I stop doing the water changes and forget and leave the light on all night long 2 or 3 times.


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

yea the light issue is big. I did that once over break, family vacation and i simply thought o what the heck ill leave the lights on. One week later, I come back and I wasn't sure if I still had plants or not, everything was covered in black hair algae. So keep the lights normal and then you should be fine. Right now, the T5s are great and at this point, really do your fertilizer, i forgot do you have CO2? and then just trial and error. See what plants you can grow, and which ones are trouble.


----------



## Porkchop (Feb 9, 2009)

I'm doing DIY CO2 until I can get pressurized.


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

then i think you eliminated a lot. if you want, get some wisteria (H. difformis) and check how quickly they grow. These plants love good lights. If they grow other things should grow as well. and then simply trial and error. get some bunched throw in see what happens


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

hehe here is one dirty little secret. I don't have CO2, nor any really fancy fertilizers, and I have two 10000K 50/50 bulbs, no eco (all the fancy stuff is for another tank that im setting up right now) and no root tabs (just simple gravel) and my plants are really fine. They are growing, maybe not as fast as they could, but they are and look happy and are rooting. I do keep the nitrates a bit up though and the plants are profiting off of that. and now your respect for me should be dropping. whatever works right?!


----------



## Porkchop (Feb 9, 2009)

Ha-ha...water boys a cheater... No actually you're right, whatever works for you or your tank. So far no matter what I've done, even ignoring it, has helped me out. But I believe this is the turning point for me.


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

yep he is. actually all my plants are silk or plastic HAHAHAHA (small joke only sarcasm doesn't go over well online)


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

porky how long have you been in this business?


----------



## Porkchop (Feb 9, 2009)

It's amazing that I can't find my local water report online. I just knew I could but I'm racking my mind trying to find it, I lost my copy that was mailed to me last year. 

Not having a local LFS really makes this bad and the ones I can locate by traveling don't really seem to stock the needed stuff. Plenty of crap that you don't need or want...in my personal opinion. Maybe I should look into opening a fish store in this area...

Plastic plants...that would explain the situation you describe of everything doing great in seemingly un-ideal conditions. I don't ever want to go back to plastic plants and if it ever looks like that is my only option...my entire setup will be for sale. Nice joke though...I imagine not many people find the humor in it though...haha.

I wish I had the junk needed to build a drop checker right now, I'd put one together just to see what my level is...I want to know...NOW.


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

yea not humorous to most people. Although, im from Germany originally, where you walk into a fish store and you can get mostly anything you want, plant fish or equipment wise. they also can order pretty much everything. Plastic plants is a joke for me, because the first time i walked into a store here and asked for i think it was E. tenellus, they said if i wanted silk or plastic. and i think i gave them the dumbest look recorded in history.

i have no idea how to build a drop checker. sorry i calculate from KH and pH.


----------



## Porkchop (Feb 9, 2009)

Well I started messing with freshwater tanks when I was about 10 I guess. I kept various tanks for awhile and then went with saltwater for a short while as well. I wasn't really into the saltwater thing...and once cars and females came along...fish wasn't a priority anymore for me. Just recently I got back into owning tanks...but I've kept up with the hobby off and on since a kid. I'm 36 now...so I've got a few years under my belt of messing with just fish...not plants. I tried growing plants before but this was before the internet...haha...God I'm old. 

I gave up on them and just figured it was easier to keep plastic plants. But I was offered my 40 at a fair deal and the guy said "take this and make a sick planted tank out of it and then show me the pictures. Cause that is what I always wanted to do with it but I never had the time.". So...that sparked me with live plants...and it's been one more experience since then...a lot of reading...lots of questions...lots of money spent only to watch it melt away and float to the surface.

So I'm hoping that what is contained in these 4 pages is going to help me and hopefully Heart as well. I feel like I'm thread-jacking here...but maybe this whole thing will be helpful to another newbie one day and keep someone else from walking away from a rewarding hobby.


----------



## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

hehe well now i feel like the dumby here. any other questions you have feel free, and yea the money.... it's incredible how much money i sank into my new 30gal already and it's not even online yet. There is no water in it and it already took ~200$ (without the tank and basic equipment, that was a birthday present). 

And then again there are so many variables. I once had a tank taht had strange algae growth, only in one area of the tank, alwasy the left lower side. After a while i figured out that the light coming from the window was the issue, because when i moved the room layout around a bit, i had put a shelf in the path of the light and the algae went away. 

Trial and error is really the best. And yes sometimes i wonder why my plants are growing at all. Everyone says they should be dying and i agree. And now im sounding like an arrogant i**** so excuse me please.


----------

