# New to plants and need a lot of help



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Biggles said:


> Any advice, questions, comments are welcomed. My troubles started after adding the new light, (in March), plants, ferts, liquid carbon.
> Thanks,
> Ed


Max lighting 8 hours per day. 
Ferts: You are only supplying micro nutrients (plants need only trace amounts of micro nutrients) to the tank with Flourish. No macro or secondary nutrients. But, given you fish load, plant selection and light choice you can probably get away with a simple liquid fertilizer. Maybe try out Thrive instead, as it is a true all-in-one fertilizer that supplies macro, micro and secondary nutrients. 

No such thing as liquid carbon, Excel is an algaecide that allows better use of atmospheric CO2 in the water, and slightly inhibits algae growth under stronger lighting. Continue to dose this daily. 

Eco-complete is a waste of money (sorry to be the bearer of bad news). It's nothing but crushed lava rock that offers nothing to benefit plant growth. Continue to use root tabs, they are a good solution for low tech tanks. I would suggest going the DIY route with root tabs. Much cheaper this way. 

Don't be afraid of going up to 25-30 gallon during each water change.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Thanks Quagulator.

Ah yes, photo-period. It is set to 8 hours currently...turned back from 10 hours 2 months ago.

I am happy to try out a different fertilizer solution...well, apparently a full fertilizer solution since mine is so lacking currently. Thanks...Thrive added to my amazon cart.

I will continue to dose excel daily. Do you recommend I stick with 2X or go back to recommended dosage?

No, that's fine! I only bought 2 bags so I won't bother doing the pita gravel swapping. You just saved me money and time...and a back ache.
Tabs, I just got a big package of those so once I'm running low I will look into DIY version.

Ok, I'm down for more water change. I had read doing over %50 change threw C02 levels off and can cause algae issue with planted tanks. Hence why I am here and trying to learn.

Wondering if you can speak to this part? Is it ok to add prime, fertilizer, excel all at one time? I had been doing all at once and recently changed to adding ferts and excel the day after water change/prime.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Biggles said:


> Thanks Quagulator.
> 
> *No problem, we are here to help!*
> 
> ...



See bold


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

That makes sense...the need to customize ferts for your specific setup. I will try Thrive in hopes of getting the plants back in a growing/happy state.

Blasting sand eh!? Thanks for that tip! I do like the look of eco compared to the blue so I will probably pick that up this weekend.

I don't recall where I read that bit about planted tanks and water changes. Again, I'm here to learn...not trying to stir up controversy.

I had read the same about prime binding to fertilizers, hence my recent change in routine. Good to know prime and excel are happy together at WC time.

I really appreciate the rapid replies Quagulator :thumbsup:


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Adding a pic of the green algae in hopes to identify type.
http://51c54e40fd1795841a30-aed1b662e1f97bf9d9e3dc2fcc05032b.r55.cf5.rackcdn.com/misc/2018-12/Algae-optimized.jpg


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Thrive arrives tomorrow. I had dosed flourish yesterday, Wed Dec. 6. Should I dose Thrive asap or wait until I do my normal water change over the weekend/wait a day then dose? Seems an elementary question but I have made nothing but mistakes since trying my hand at aquarium plants and want to end that pattern.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Biggles said:


> Adding a pic of the green algae in hopes to identify type.
> http://51c54e40fd1795841a30-aed1b662e1f97bf9d9e3dc2fcc05032b.r55.cf5.rackcdn.com/misc/2018-12/Algae-optimized.jpg


I would manually remove all algae and ALL AFFECTED plant tissue. It will rarely recover, if at all. 



Biggles said:


> Thrive arrives tomorrow. I had dosed flourish yesterday, Wed Dec. 6. Should I dose Thrive asap or wait until I do my normal water change over the weekend/wait a day then dose? Seems an elementary question but I have made nothing but mistakes since trying my hand at aquarium plants and want to end that pattern.


You can wait until a regular WC. Use this time to remove all excess organics / algae / poor plant tissue. Think of the water change as "reset" :wink2:


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Morning Q.

Great, I have a plan of action now. Do you by chance know what algae that is?


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Looks like some BBA and some Hair Algae to me. Not 100% sure though.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Tell me if I am thinking right here...knowing the exact algae type may not be important because my nutrients are so out of wack that once I start with a complete fertilizer and get the water parameters more in balance, my plants will take off and out compete any algae that I could not manually remove? 

While I am here, are there any other tests you recommend I get? I have API fresh water master...so PH, PH high, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate is all I can currently test.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Biggles said:


> Tell me if I am thinking right here...knowing the exact algae type may not be important because my nutrients are so out of wack that once I start with a complete fertilizer and get the water parameters more in balance, my plants will take off and out compete any algae that I could not manually remove?
> 
> While I am here, are there any other tests you recommend I get? I have API fresh water master...so PH, PH high, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate is all I can currently test.


Unhealthy plants promote algae growth. Algae will feed off the ammonia / sugars / nutrients that unhealthy plants give off / release. Healthier plants = less change for algae to germinate / take hold. 

Remember, any old, affected plant tissue will not recover by switching up fertilizers. It's best to trim away any and all visibly "bad" plant tissue.

Useful things to have access too / knowledge on:

NO3 (API works)
PO4 (API works) - Although I never test for PO4.... Some people do though. 
kH - Carbonate hardness (API works)
gH - General hardness or total combination of Ca + Mg (API works)
Ca (API saltwater works) - helps understand what your gH is made up of.
Calibrated pH pen (any $20 one off Amazon) - The API liquid tests will work, just not as accurate as a calibrated pen
TDS meter - optional

rotalabutterfly.com / nutrient calculator - learn to use (it's easy, ask for help if need be  )
Your city / town water report. You can usually pick up some good info on what's in your water from these.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

I hear you loud and clear...I will manually remove all algae I can along with dead or dying plant matter. (Place order for more plants...my evasive snail killing team is impressive. I always get snails with plants...maybe you also know a more reputable/less snail infested place I should be buying plants from?)

Thanks.
So I have NO3 from API kit, and I just remembered I have a bluelab PH pen. I will soak the bulb and get new calibration liquid.

kH, gH, Ca...I will pick those up.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Biggles said:


> I hear you loud and clear...I will manually remove all algae I can along with dead or dying plant matter. (Place order for more plants...my evasive snail killing team is impressive. I always get snails with plants...maybe you also know a more reputable/less snail infested place I should be buying plants from?)
> 
> Thanks.
> So I have NO3 from API kit, and I just remembered I have a bluelab PH pen. I will soak the bulb and get new calibration liquid.
> ...


Yep that pH probe should work well once re-calibrated. 

Don't bother with the Ca test unless you don't care about spending a few extra dollars. gH as a whole is good enough for us. If need be just bump gH up a few degrees with some gH booster and call it good.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Ok...gH/kH test kit and calibration solution are on the list...gH booster too...what gH value should I be targeting? I also don't test pH often only because I don't attempt to make any adjustments...should I be testing and tracking pH more often?


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Biggles said:


> Ok...gH/kH test kit and calibration solution are on the list...gH booster too...what gH value should I be targeting? I also don't test pH often only because I don't attempt to make any adjustments...should I be testing and tracking pH more often?


pH test occasionally. Do not try and alter pH with products. 

pH check more often if using RO water / CO2 / ADA soil etc. Anything that will alter pH that is in the tank, test for often. 

gH is tough because tap water from different locations has different values. I target 35ppm Ca and 10ppm Mg... works out to 5-6 degrees of gH. kH I target 2 degrees (I'm using remineralized RO water, so I need to boost kH / gH).

I use MgSO4 for Mg and CaSO4 for Ca.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Morning Q 

I checked out Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator
and sure, not to many items to fill out but I am clueless about what "I am calculating for" EI, EI daily, EI Low light weekly etc.

I also looked at the lighting section but I have such a knowledge gap it's frustrating. Math tells me I am making 60 watts of LED light, but I know watts per gallon is not the most accurate way of determining light power. Is my light low, med or high? I assume low or med??

About PH...no RO/CO2/ADA soil in my tank and I have never/will not attempt to adjust that value with products.

Appreciate having your target values...gives me some numbers to aim for.

Happy Friday


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Biggles said:


> Morning Q
> 
> I checked out Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator
> 
> ...


See bold


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Great. I will read up on EI dosing since I'm going with Thrive.

My light is a Beamsworks 48" DA 6500k
Tank is a standard 55 gal. So 48X12x21 I believe. I can measure tonight to be absolutely sure.

Also, I can now see your signature and am in the process of reading your build from January. Wow...looks amazing!!


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Biggles said:


> Great. I will read up on EI dosing since I'm going with Thrive.
> 
> My light is a Beamsworks 48" DA 6500k
> Tank is a standard 55 gal. So 48X12x21 I believe. I can measure tonight to be absolutely sure.
> ...


Thank you  Lots to be done with the tank still. 

That Beamswork will put you in the low-medium light range. 

Lots of PAR data here: 

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/721001-beamswork-success-stories-beamswork-club.html

and here:

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...-fspec-dhl-6500k-par-lux-kelvin-pur-data.html


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

And it's Monday, back to the office.

Not much to report. Did a big cleanup of algae and %50 water change on Saturday and started using Thrive on Sunday. We shall see.

Bigger issue I had was helping my Dad with his tank...he is clearly not doing maintenance. I cleaned his up, did 2 %50 water changes and could not get nitrates to show up on the color chart. Still a deep dark red, smh.


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## kaldurak (May 2, 2010)

You're following sound advice from Q!

Help your dad out by doing another Big 50-70% water change to drop those nitrates down though.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Thanks kaldurak. 

I absolutely will. I visit him every Thursday after work, I am taking over maintenance for him at this point. I can't take seeing the fish suffer.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

No real update here. I THINK I am seeing some new growth on a few plants that haven't show much sign of life recently. 

I realize damaged plants probably won't recover fully, if at all, so I went and ordered up some new plants.

Probably should have asked for suggestions before doing so but I did read up on each plant, granted this is the internet and I found some conflicting info, so this is what I have coming in/trying again.

Moneywort
Dark Red Ludwigia
Green Cabomba
Brazilian Pennywort
S. Repens
Red Root Floaters


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## vigilanterepoman (Mar 16, 2018)

Biggles said:


> No real update here. I THINK I am seeing some new growth on a few plants that haven't show much sign of life recently.
> 
> I realize damaged plants probably won't recover fully, if at all, so I went and ordered up some new plants.
> 
> ...


I'm curious to see how your S. Repens does. Anytime I have tried it with algae present in the tank it gets attacked by the algae. Just keep an eye on it.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

vigilanterepoman said:


> I'm curious to see how your S. Repens does. Anytime I have tried it with algae present in the tank it gets attacked by the algae. Just keep an eye on it.


Thanks vigilanterepoman. Good to know. My plan is to put the majority of plants into the 55 gal but I also want to put at least one of each into other tanks as a backup/see if one tank grows certain plants better than another. I have 2 10 gallon tanks, a 45 flat back hex and a 55 standard. 

For the S. Repens, I hope to have enough to place some in all tanks.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

My Dads tank is a MESS! Pulled out all decorations, heater, everything but the plants. (trimmed all the nasty off the plants too) All things cleaned...I have never seen such nastiness getting siphoned from the gravel. Nitrate test went from deep dark red to less deep dark red. Doesn't sound like much progress but after last weeks 2x%50 changes and seeing zero change in nitrate, I think I am at least making some progress. 

On another note, my plants didn't arrive yet...should be here today though 

Happy Friday all!


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Got my plants finally. They don’t all like staying planted but we shall see. I got very little s. Repens so I didn’t get to spread to other tanks as planned.

I have some numbers. New gh,kh test kit arrived.

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 20
Kh 4 drops - 4
Gh 6 drops - 107.4
‘I think I did that correctly’
5 squirts thrive
5ml excel - daily

This test was done the day after my water change. I used thrive and excel in the am test was done in the afternoon. 

I’m still picking out pieces of algae but it doesn’t seem to be getting worse. There was clear growth on the java moss last week, woohoo lol, hopefully plants start winning the battle.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

All the new plants are looking good and growing. Still some algae but I seem to be winning the battle overall. I noticed something new though. Little bugs crawling around the new red root floaters as well as the floating pads of Brazilian pennywort. Teeny tiny little specs.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

A closer look at the new plant growth and it seems cabomba, pennywory, moneywort, red root floaters are all looking ok but the red ludwiga new growth is warped and twisted and pretty unhappy looking. The s. Repens is doing ok but has a little fuzzy algae growth. 

The local store bought sword plants seems to be disappearing. Hoping this is just due to the plants going through an adjustment period but I don’t know.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Had a little free time over the 4 day weekend and setup a new little 2-3 gallon tank. No heater or filter, 1 clip light with a cfl, 6500k 23watt iirc. The idea was a plant only tank. I also adjusted my "shrimp" tank light. I now have one of my CP (carnivorous plant) light hoods over the 10 gal with just 2 of the 4 24 watt T8's. I hope that isn't too much light for the 10 and too little for the 3...time will tell.

Pic with new tank...and the gnome I got from the office grab bag.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Happy New Year PT!

Quick update. Got more plants in and things are growing. The warped growth on the ludwigia repens seems to be going away and replaced be healthier looking leaves.

My only issue (aside from those tiny bugs) is that nitrates have been creeping up close to 40 by week end. I did an extra water change to get that down a little bit. I am hoping once some plants root and start taking off that the nitrates will get used up more. Should that be my expectation, that plants will help reduce nitrates? Or should I have gone with the other version of thrive for high nitrates? I also chose to not add ferts today because of the high nitrates. Was that the right move?

Sorry for the freehand circles, lol. Just wanted to highlight the leaves I talked about on page 2. The newer ones look much improved.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

I love when this happens...items in amazon cart, wife needs coffee and just gets whatever I had on hold in cart. ThriveC and nitra-zorb are on the way. I have no experience with this nitra-zorb. Hopefully I didn't waste money. And yes, I know I am treating a symptom. The root of my nitrate issue is that I need to get rid of a lot of fish...which means catching those little buggers...which I SUCK at.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Biggles said:


> I love when this happens...items in amazon cart, wife needs coffee and just gets whatever I had on hold in cart. ThriveC and nitra-zorb are on the way. I have no experience with this nitra-zorb. Hopefully I didn't waste money. And yes, I know I am treating a symptom. The root of my nitrate issue is that I need to get rid of a lot of fish...which means catching those little buggers...which I SUCK at.


What is your fish load? NO3 ppm prewater change? Water change schedule?


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Fish load...no idea. Lots of little fish, guppies, mollys, platys, oto's...constant fry. Too many. I gave away 15 platy's a few weeks back and need to do that again.

N03 - @40ppm before water change. WC - %50 weekly on Saturday with prime and excel.

Dosed thrive on Sunday...checked N03 on Tuesday and it was back between 30-40. I have reduced feeding to once a day and added a lot of plants.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Biggles said:


> Fish load...no idea. Lots of little fish, guppies, mollys, platys, oto's...constant fry. Too many. I gave away 15 platy's a few weeks back and need to do that again.
> 
> N03 - @40ppm before water change. WC - %50 weekly on Saturday with prime and excel.
> 
> Dosed thrive on Sunday...checked N03 on Tuesday and it was back between 30-40. I have reduced feeding to once a day and added a lot of plants.


30-40ppm NO3 is fine. No need to drastically lower it.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Ah, ok. See...more of that mis-information. 

Can you confirm or deny if it was a good idea to skip the second dose of thrive this week? I didn't want to see over 40ppm...BUT I was under the impression I should be targeting 10-20ppm. I also don't want to be shortchanging my plants on nutrients.


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

@Biggles

If you can get a chemical analysis from your municipal water treatment plant, mainly to check for hardness, pH, GH and KH, and a breakdown on any trace amounts of other dissolved minerals and elements. It can give you a heads up on what to expect when doing frequent water changes. 

Sometimes the combined Chloramines and a high level of source water nitrates can cause issues, especially if you find the water out of the tap is high pH but relatively low hardness. It will also save you the cost of doing the water test yourself. Not all water Co-Ops do this for their customers, (think of Flint, Michigan for example..) but most will give you access to either a downloadable .PDF or print out on request.

Knowledge is a good step forward when entering water gardening for the first time.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Gramps - This is what I found.


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

It's too bad they don't give you more basics like the pH, GH, KH and what non-incidental minerals the general hardness is made up of. It looks like decently clean tap water.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

This is a test from about 3 weeks ago...tank water test, not tap water test.

I have some numbers. New gh,kh test kit arrived.

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 20
Kh 4 drops - 4
Gh 6 drops - 107.4
‘I think I did that correctly’
5 squirts thrive
5ml excel - daily


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

I think your GH would be 6 and your TDS is probably somewhere around 107?


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

This is the API chart that I got the numbers from...I'm not really sure how to read it which is why I listed the amount of drops it took to get the right colors for GH and KH

Edit, I know how to read, lol, but didn't know what to post up for values for you folks in the know


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

Yeah, I maybe reading my API KH/GH test kit incorrectly then.

I always thought the number drops were a direct reading of the GH and KH drop for point on both. I also bought a cheap TDS pen since I keep Crystal Shrimp, so I also like to keep my dissolved minerals at about 80 to 120 for the plants and the fish tanks as our water is practically nil for dissolved minerals except for tannics, silica and iron. I have to add a little GH booster with every water change.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

I think you are correct about the number of drops is the reading. It seems to go along with what I read others posting about GH and KH values.

If I am understanding the parameters correctly, it seems I'm in ok shape as far as plant and fish health goes.

KH - 4
GH - 6
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 20-40

I dose thrive 2x a week...well 1 time this week. <- This...was this wrong? Should I still do my second dose even though nitrates are getting close to, but still under, 40ppm right now?

Seeing as I will have thriveC soon, should I switch over to that to not add excessive nitrate?


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

Biggles said:


> I think you are correct about the number of drops is the reading. It seems to go along with what I read others posting about GH and KH values.


They should have a tables graph that can calculate x amount of GH plus Y amount of KH equals a sum of the two in PPM or TDS or somesuch.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Biggles said:


> I think you are correct about the number of drops is the reading. It seems to go along with what I read others posting about GH and KH values.
> 
> If I am understanding the parameters correctly, it seems I'm in ok shape as far as plant and fish health goes.
> 
> ...


You should aim for a weekly total of 30-40ppm NO3. So you can go ahead and skip the NO3 dose if fish waste + water source is supplying enough. No different than my tank, I supply 20ppm on top of residual NO3 directly after a water change, so my livestock never see <30ppm. 

Yes, the kH and gH values are in check. One thing is the Ca:Mg ratio. For example, my tap water has a gH of 17 degrees (17 drops with the API liquid kit) BUT according to my water report 15+ degrees of the total 17 is Ca. I confirmed this with some diluted API reef Ca test solution. So, dispite having a gH of 17, I still needed to gH boost (Mg only) to achieve enough Ca and Mg. 



GrampsGrunge said:


> They should have a tables graph that can calculate x amount of GH plus Y amount of KH equals a sum of the two in PPM or TDS or somesuch.


They do, refer to post 43 : https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11154361-post43.html


# of drops = degrees of gH or kH. 
ppm = Concentration of Ca+Mg (gH) and CO3 (kH)


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

You guys rock! Thank you for all of the input Quagulater and GrampsGrunge.

For now I will stay the course. 

If I notice NO3 going over 40ppm before my weekly water change,(as it probably would have been this week without a mid week 15ish gal change) should I make a switch to ThriveC? I don't want to create another imbalance/algae outbreak/deficient plant condition.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Biggles said:


> You guys rock! Thank you for all of the input Quagulater and GrampsGrunge.
> 
> For now I will stay the course.
> 
> If I notice NO3 going over 40ppm before my weekly water change,(as it probably would have been this week without a mid week 15ish gal change) should I make a switch to ThriveC? I don't want to create another imbalance/algae outbreak/deficient plant condition.


Higher NO3 will not cause algae outbreaks, nor should it cause a deficiency. 

If you are having high NO3 issues, I would switch to a fert program that allows independent NO3 dosing from the rest of the macro / secondary / micro nutrients.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Quagulator said:


> Higher NO3 will not cause algae outbreaks, nor should it cause a deficiency.
> 
> If you are having high NO3 issues, I would switch to a fert program that allows independent NO3 dosing from the rest of the macro / secondary / micro nutrients.


:| I was afraid you would say something like this.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Looking for clarification with thrive directions. 

Thrive - 1 pump per 10 gallons, treats 2500 gallons

ThriveC - 1 pump per 5 gallons, treats 2500 gallons

I’m no math genius, but this math seems incorrect. Both bottle are the same volume. If a pump is the same volume from both, thrive C treats half as much water as thrive!? 

So in making the switch to thrive C, 1 dose for a 55 gallon tank would be 11 pumps compared to just 5.5 pumps of thrive.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

That nitra-zorb pad my wife ordered. It seems to be doing it's thing, or plants are doing their thing. Maybe I should have waited longer to see the effects all the plants are having, but I wanted to try and avoid a mid week watcher change just because, ya know, life. I tested last night, as I wanted to fert this AM, and nitrates were right around 10. I will test again tonight.

Overall plants are doing well. I see why pleco's are a real pita with planted tanks...I re-plant so many stems everyday because of that fish. Once he goes to a bigger tank, probably within a year, I will add more plants to the tank that I have growing out in other tanks.

Red root floaters continue to grow out of control. Will have to toss some soon so light doesn't get blocked. Maybe I should RAOK some of these?


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Biggles said:


> Looking for clarification with thrive directions.
> 
> Thrive - 1 pump per 10 gallons, treats 2500 gallons
> 
> ...


ThriveC is created for a low tech tank in mind, with different concentrations of all the ingredients.
ThriveC | Premium Liquid Fertilizer | NilocG Aquatics

Thrive is based of the EI system, so has higher concentrations of the compounds we are looking to use in the tank.
Thrive 500ml | Premium Liquid Fertilizer | NilocG Aquatics

Check out the site and it will give all the details and analysis.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Hi Grobbins48,

Thanks for the reply. I read up on these before buying when they were recommended to me on this forum. 

I am currently using Thrive but had been experiencing higher nitrates than I would have liked. I now also have ThriveC at my disposal. I got this because of the description as being for low tech tanks and tanks with higher levels of nitrates. 

Now that a lot of plants and nitra-zorb have been added I am seeing pretty low nitrate levels, so I am sticking with Thrive for the time being. 

I have a low tech, low/medium light tank. Which Thrive would you say is more appropriate for my scenario? 

My question about dosing Thrive vs ThriveC was more or less to establish the fact that if I switched to ThriveC, the bottle would be used up at twice the rate of Thrive...which seems to be the case.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Question for you. 

Why are you so focused on the nitrate levels? 

I've never, ever heard of someone using nitra-zorb in a planted tank.

Is there someone you are trying to emulate who keeps a successful planted tank keeping nitrates low?

I keep a heavily stocked tank and my N is never below 40......by design. Much like Quag said above. Why? Because after years of experimenting it results in healthier plants, which in turn means less algae.

And one more thing. When you ask for help, it's best to post pictures of the tank. I read this whole thread and I don't have any sense of what is going on in your tank or what your goals are?


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Morning Greggz,

My focus on nitrates is fish health. And previously a misconception that it had a hand in my algae issue, Quag set me strait on that. I am originally a fish only keeper and new to plants. I am under the impression nitrates above 40ppm will negatively effect fish health.

No, not trying to emulate anyone, just trying to keep under 40ppm. Pretty sure I got this information from a book about freshwater fish basics some years ago.

Your tank is purposely never below 40 ppm nitrates. So doesn't that mean it gets to about 80ppm before your weekly water change, assuming you change about %50 weekly? That seems to go against what I have read for fish health. I'm here to learn and not claiming the literature I have read is the end all be all authority. Just letting you know what I have read so you know why I think what I do. 

Ha, well, I don't want to post pictures of my tank. It is nothing like the works of art I see posted here. Kidding aside, I do have a series of pictures of the same plant to show what has happened over the past Month.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

No, our tanks do not see 80ppm NO3. 

Our NO3 dosing plus fish waste contribute to the 40ppm after a water change. 

40ppm x 50% water change = 20ppm

20ppm post water change + 20ppm NO3 from dosing = 40ppm. 

Plant uptake NO3 = Fish contribution NO3 (in my tank anyway)

Tank NO3 equilibrium = 40ppm

Fish don't seem to care, I've had my rainbows and CPD's breed in my tank w/ high CO2, high NO3 etc.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Thanks for the breakdown Quag.

Coming from fish only, nitrates were always increasing during the week. You guys have the balance down with your ferts, fish waste and plant uptake. 

Quag, your last line, when you say high NO3, what ppm are you talking about?


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Biggles said:


> Thanks for the breakdown Quag.
> 
> Coming from fish only, nitrates were always increasing during the week. You guys have the balance down with your ferts, fish waste and plant uptake.
> 
> Quag, your last line, when you say high NO3, what ppm are you talking about?


Consistently in the 20-40ppm or slightly higher range of NO3. Never ever below 20ppm (unless I'm late on a WC and plants consume slightly more). Remember, dosing pure NO3 is a lot "cleaner" than biologically produced NO3 from fish waste and organic's decomposing. 

It's not a "balance", its weekly 50-70% water changes that reduce NO3 down only to be dosed up to a certain concentration for max plant uptake (Not just NO3, but all nutrients we dose). 

Just because there is a trace of NO3 in the water, does not mean that plants can utilize it. They can't "choose" which nutrient they want to uptake. If light + CO2 are driving fast growth, we need the 40ppm concentration of NO3 so the plant's N requirements are met for it's growth speed. 

Make sense? Or no? I can try and re-word it if needed.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Ok, I tried to take the same picture over and over...starts on Dec 19th, ends Jan 5.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

It's not a "balance", its weekly 50-70% water changes that reduce NO3 down only to be dosed up to a certain concentration for max plant uptake (Not just NO3, but all nutrients we dose). 

Just because there is a trace of NO3 in the water, does not mean that plants can utilize it. They can't "choose" which nutrient they want to uptake. If light + CO2 are driving fast growth, we need the 40ppm concentration of NO3 so the plant's N requirements are met for it's growth speed. 

Make sense? Or no? I can try and re-word it if needed.[/QUOTE]

Yes, that makes sense...although I do see this as a balance of sorts.

So a 20-40ppm nitrate range would be ideal for fish and plant health. That is exactly what I am aiming for. After switching to thrive I was seeing 40ppm nitrate a day or two after my water change and it was going up and required a mid week water change to keep it from going over 40. I can remove the nitra-zorb and see if it goes back up but wouldn't it be better if the tank is more consistently in that 20-40 range?


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Biggles said:


> It's not a "balance", its weekly 50-70% water changes that reduce NO3 down only to be dosed up to a certain concentration for max plant uptake (Not just NO3, but all nutrients we dose).
> 
> Just because there is a trace of NO3 in the water, does not mean that plants can utilize it. They can't "choose" which nutrient they want to uptake. If light + CO2 are driving fast growth, we need the 40ppm concentration of NO3 so the plant's N requirements are met for it's growth speed.
> 
> Make sense? Or no? I can try and re-word it if needed.


Yes, that makes sense...although I do see this as a balance of sorts.

So a 20-40ppm nitrate range would be ideal for fish and plant health. That is exactly what I am aiming for. After switching to thrive I was seeing 40ppm nitrate a day or two after my water change and it was going up and required a mid week water change to keep it from going over 40. I can remove the nitra-zorb and see if it goes back up but wouldn't it be better if the tank is more consistently in that 20-40 range?[/QUOTE]

What is your water change schedule like? How much water % changed and how often?

What is the NO3 level of incoming, new water?

If tank = 40ppm
if tap = 20ppm

50% Water change = 30ppm post water change tank reading

Use Thrive to target 1 x 10ppm NO3 dose
Of 2 x 5ppm NO3 doses


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

I do a %50 change once a week.

I tested my tap water ages ago but don't recall offhand. I will verify this and report back. 

"Use Thrive to target 1 x 10ppm NO3 dose
Of 2 x 5ppm NO3 doses"

Got it!


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

For Greggz...you can point and laugh, I'm a big boy


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Biggles said:


> For Greggz...you can point and laugh, I'm a big boy


Not laughing at all.

You've got some plants growing, and that is a good thing. And you are trying to improve, and that is a good thing too.

Full tank shots help. My first thought is that your tank is lightly planted with mostly low light plants. If you are not going to add CO2, I would try to get the light even lower, and just concentrate on those low light slow growers. Pleasing stems in a low light non CO2 is tricky. A few do it here, but not many. 

And in my experience, most algae in non CO2 low tech tanks is one of two things. Too much light or dirty conditions. 

Now as to conditions, I am trying to figure out why your nitrates rise so quickly? Doesn't look like a lot of fish load. Are you over feeding them? Are you cleaning filters regularly? Have you seen improvement since you upped water change volume? In general keeping the tank uber clean?

In the end much depends on how involved you want to get. Load up the tank with crypts/swords/anubias/ferns, use low light, keep tank clean, and it's pretty easy. 

Bring stems into the picture, and it gets more complicated in a hurry. No way around it.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Greggz said:


> Not laughing at all.
> 
> You've got some plants growing, and that is a good thing. And you are trying to improve, and that is a good thing too.
> 
> ...


Much appreciated Greggz.

Here is a list of what I recently added to the tank;
Rotala rotundifolia 
Bacopa caroliniana Pink
Ludwigia palustris
Helanthium vesuvius 
Limnophila aromatica Mini
Staurogyne repens 
Cryptocoryne parva

Ludwigia Ovalis 
Staurogyne Repens Loose
Ludwigia sp. Super Red
Dwarf Sagittaria Subulata 

Red Root Floaters
Moneywort
Dark Red Ludwigia
Green Cabomba
Also have a big hunk of java moss that I have to trim up every so often.

If stems are a problem for my low tech setup, it seems I have a lot of problems in that list. I looked for low/medium light plants that didn't require CO2. I was going by a sellers description and would look online as well to verify. Currently, just about all new plants appear happy and growing. 

As far as the nitrates rising, I believe it has to be stock. I currently feed only 1 time a day and skip at least 1 day a week. I alternate between spirulina flakes and tropical flakes. I also have brine shrimp cubes and blood worms as treats but rarely use them. I also put in cucumber or zucchini stuffed with a pleco wafer a few times a week and remove the following day. Speaking of the stock, if I had to guess, I would say 50+ small fish plus a pleco and assassin snails. It's really hard to count them all and they are mostly live bearers so I always have new fry showing up. I give fish away every so often to keep numbers down. I clean pre-filters weekly with my water change and alternate (every other week...clarity, I clean 1 of the 2 filters internal sponge and biomax every week) cleaning the internal sponge and rinsing of biomax. Would you suggest I clean both filters internal sponges/biomax weekly? Filters are aquaclear 110's. I am pretty OCD when it comes to my cleaning routine. 

"Load up the tank with crypts/swords/anubias/ferns" - I have a few Cryptocoryne parva. Swords I have had no luck with at all.(In this tank) What you see in the picture is 2 slowly diminishing plants. They were LFS bought and were not great looking to begin with. I have had 2 others previously that went the same way...downhill after looking ok for a few weeks/Month. I have 3 anubias in there. I trimmed a lot of algae covered leaves and have noticed new leaf growth staying more or less algae free due to, I assume, less light because of plant cover. There are no ferns in there. 

I am not really looking to get into CO2. My current goal is a happy healthy tank environment with some nice looking and thriving plants.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Biggles said:


> Much appreciated Greggz.
> 
> Here is a list of what I recently added to the tank;
> Rotala rotundifolia
> ...


I can tell you this, with that mix CO2 would make things much, much easier. 

But it can be done. If anyone can help you, I think it would be @Quagulator.

His non CO2 tank is one of the best I have seen. Will be watching with great interest to see how things go. Good luck!


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

I feel as if this thread has gone around and around and around and we should "start over" per say...

Lights:

max 8 hours per day. If algae continues drop to 6 hours.

CO2:

None, no ambition to, that's fine. Use Excel at the "after water change" rate DAILY. 

Ferts:

Use Thrive to target 10ppm NO3 per week. Even 15ppm. Maybe dose 10ppm NO3 after a water change, then give the tank another shot 1/2 way through the week. 

55 gallon tank -- 50 gallons actual water -- 5ppm NO3 Thrive = 14 - 15 mL.

So, 30mL after a WC then a mid week shot of 14mL's ???

Clean all affected plant tissue, clean filter regularly, 50% WC weekly minimum.

gH was 4 degrees if I remember? Might be worth boosting 1-2 degrees higher. Optional of course... But you may see a repose depending on your tapwater gH make-up (Ca dominant vs Mg dominant) 

Root tabs are a "must" in my opinion on the rooty swords / crypts / vals ... of course this is my experience and I use tabs in my low tech tanks VERY liberally. 

Plant selection is key, most of the one's you've specified can work. They will take some time to grow, and you'll have to manually make them look better by pruning, cleaning and physically shaping the plant growth patterns. Because lower tech / lower light = slower growth, you will need patience lol ! That is a tough part for me in low tech. 

If you want some faster growing stems, myriophyllum species are a must. 

I see loads of potential in your tank, it will just take some dedication and patience for you to really take it to the next level!

Start a journal up maybe? To document your progression and let other chime in on ways to help. It makes asking questions easy, and keeps all your info in one place rather then having to re-state all your parameters / lighting / fertilizers / tank specs etc. 

If you want all the help we can offer. Try posting all relevant info again so we can make the best recommendations. 
@Greggz As soon as I get this bacteria / water column algae bloom fixed, I will go ahead and update my 90 gallon journal. Not much has changed.
@Biggles I invite you to check out my low tech Journal see here: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1279383-quags-low-tech-high-light-90g.html


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

FWIW, You guys are awesome!! I sincerely appreciate your time and interest in helping. 

Ok, let's go over the info again;

Tank 55 standard.

Light - 8 hour photo period. Beamsworks DA 6500 48"

Fert - Thrive and root tabs. Have been dosing 5 pumps=10ml the day after water change (Sunday), then same dose again on Wed. "1 pump(2ml) per 10g will add ~7ppm NO3, 1.3ppm PO4, 5ppm K, and 0.25ppm Fe" I will test my tap water for nitrates and post that value asap. If I am understanding correctly, you are suggesting a larger dose post water change 30ml, then a mid week 14ml dose? Or to convert, 15 pump and 7 pump dose on respective days. Is that correct and or dependent on my tap water nitrate results? Sorry for repeat question/confirmation, I want to get the dosing right.

Additives - Excel 25ml with water change and 5ml daily

Glad to hear that some of my plant selection has a chance.

Root tabs - Seachem Flourish. Used near all stem plants. I have patience and time to work on, prune, clean, shape, experiment.

I will definitely check out myriophyllumm...thx for the recommendation.

Journal - Makes sense to have all info in one place for all to see.

Thank you for the optimism Quag  

I read your sig link as soon as I could see them. I will be all over this one as soon as I click post.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Biggles said:


> FWIW, You guys are awesome!! I sincerely appreciate your time and interest in helping.
> 
> Ok, let's go over the info again;
> 
> ...


Seems like a good starting point. Because it is low tech, I don't think we need to worry about dialing in a perfect, fine tuned fert program (we can certainly strive to this in the future though! ). Instead, we can target 10-15ppm of NO3 from Thrive, and the other nutrient levels should be adequate for a low tech tank's needs when dosing Thrive at those levels. We aren't blasting your plants with high light and high CO2 so no need to blast them with fertilizers because the growth speed of your plants will not be able to actually utilize the higher fert levels and you'll simply wash them down the drain at each water change. Now, those of us that are dosing high ferts still flush tons of fert down the drain, but we need high concentrations to meet plant requirements b/c we are driving fast plant growth where as lower tech is no. That is my approach to lower tech tanks anyway, and it seems to work well. 

Now, I'll save you some more money by saying ditch the Flourish tabs (well... use them up anyway) and look for some size 00 gel capsules (amazon) and some Osmocote+ Granular house plant fertilizer. Fill up the tabs with the granules of fertilizer and boom = 1000 root tabs for the price of 40 Flourish tabs. Use under any plant you feel like every 1-2 months.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Different direction today. Now that I have all these plants I also have some sort of teeny tiny “bugs” in the tank. They appear white, super small, are crawling around just above the water line on the glass. I have seen then on floating plants as well. I can’t get a picture of them because of the small size. They jump if I try to crush them and float on the water surface. Should I be worried? Is there a method to remove these unwanted guests? I have lighters and hairspray if need be 🙂


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Biggles said:


> Different direction today. Now that I have all these plants I also have some sort of teeny tiny “bugs” in the tank. They appear white, super small, are crawling around just above the water line on the glass. I have seen then on floating plants as well. I can’t get a picture of them because of the small size. They jump if I try to crush them and float on the water surface. Should I be worried? Is there a method to remove these unwanted guests? I have lighters and hairspray if need be 🙂


I don't think hairspray getting in the water is a solid idea 

I have had them too on floating plants. They seem harmless. Annoying yes, but harmless. Only way I could get rid of them was to rid myself of infected floating plants (virtually all floating plants)


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Agree about hairspray in the water, BUT they only jump a short distance and would not be able to out jump the fireball. Ha

Ok, I’ll try to not let them bother me...it looks like the fish may be trying to eat them so that pleases me.


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## r3tic (Jan 4, 2011)

Biggles said:


> Different direction today. Now that I have all these plants I also have some sort of teeny tiny “bugs” in the tank. They appear white, super small, are crawling around just above the water line on the glass. I have seen then on floating plants as well. I can’t get a picture of them because of the small size. They jump if I try to crush them and float on the water surface. Should I be worried? Is there a method to remove these unwanted guests? I have lighters and hairspray if need be 🙂


Could they be springtails. Harmless if they are.

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

I watched a video, seems to be springtail the way they jump about. It’s been a fun weekend, springtails, a missing fish...I think I know he reason. A yellowish parasite looking bug thing. I have had a lot of issues with ‘extras’ on plants. Not sure what this new thing is but I’ll try to get a picture.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Tap water nitrate results show 5ppm or less.

More on this past weekend. I found a couple fish looking pretty ratty with torn fins and generally looking beat up. I am fairly certain this parasite is killing my fish as I found a dead baby then a dead molly. This is when I spotted the parasite attached to a neon tetra. I was unable to catch the fish and noticed this fish missing the following day. The parasite has now latched onto a different fish. I am having a hell of a time catching fish with all the plants...any suggestions would be greatly welcomed. I am not panicking...yet!!!! But close to it.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Before adding plants I would get an occasional sick fish here and there. Back then I could remove all decorations, drain water and snag the fish in question. Now with plants I have seen snails, worms, leeches, spring-tails, and this new thing...fish lice maybe? in my tank. Catching fish has become much more difficult with plants. I was thinking of removing the wood and netting off part of the tank in hopes to limit the swimming area. How do you guys catch sick fish with planted tanks without ripping everything out?


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Biggles said:


> How do you guys catch sick fish with planted tanks without ripping everything out?


With lots and lots of patience.... and more than one net


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Quagulator said:


> With lots and lots of patience.... and more than one net


Ha, lol. Yeah...I had a buddy helping me, me with 2 nets him with 1 net and a wooden spoon...elusive they are!


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Update;
This parasite is taking out fish. Been another tough week and I am pulling out a dead fish almost daily. Very frustrating...makes me angry at the plants, smh.

As of last night I have lost 4 fish. I was not able to locate the parasite yesterday. Not sure if that is good or bad...is it possible it is dead? Living in tank but hidden...waiting to latch onto it's next victim? 

Couple shots...sorry for the terrible quality of the parasite, this was not easy to get.

Can anyone confirm or deny if this is fish lice? It's the closest match I have found online.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Update:
I have not been able to locate the parasite for several days. I also am no longer losing fish.

Plants look good overall. I'll post another tank shot...I did some more cleaning re-arranging after this pic was taken but things seem to have settled down, FINGERS CROSSED, for now. My only additional maintenance item as of late is throwing away 2 handfuls of red root floaters on a daily basis. Hate tossing perfectly healthy plants.


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## Biggles (Dec 5, 2018)

Morning PT.

Not much to report. Everything seems to have settled down now. Plants are growing, algae isn't to bad, no sign of parasite, no dying fish.

I did pick up a Phosphate test kit.
Did a quick nitrate and phosphate test, Nitrate 30-40 range and Phosphate was 5.


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