# Yet Another Please Help With Algae Thread, Considering Phosguard



## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Have you done any recent testing of your water parameters: Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates?
Big cichlids like that are big bioload producers and you have a lot of fish in that 75 gallon. A mostly monthly water change and sometimes weekly ( even of 75%) is likely to give you some high nitrates.

Would this contribute to green algae? Dont know. Someone else will have to weigh in on that one.


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## Detritus (Oct 7, 2017)

Well, I haven't actually broken out the test kits in recent history, though I do have them, but just like you said I almost certainly have high nitrates and phosphates with the fish and setup I have. I will say, I don't think the tank is over crowded just yet, the Oscars are only about 5 or 6 inches now, and when the time does come I have two 125's and even a 180 I can upgrade to, which would certainty be a "forever home" for these fish. But, I'd love to get some ideas to just minimize this algae, and keep the plants greener a little longer, while still keeping these fish and a low tech setup. 

I am now reading a little about Purigen. I have previously given it little thought, but it does indeed get great reviews on that large online book store everybody seems to like. I am fairly certain the Phosguard product would be a help in my situation, and I'm tempted to add the Purigen in as well. Hopefully, this will lower both nitrates and phosphates, but not to a dangerously low level for the plants. If I try these products, I will for sure be monitoring both for sure with the test kits.

I'm also realizing that the plants themselves could use a little nutrition beyond the fish food and poop they get, and as I mentioned previously, I don't want to add CO2 to this tank, and I can't dirt it because these fish are always shoving the sand around. I *believe* all the plants I'm trying to keep (Swords, Crypts, and Anubias, mostly) can benefit from the use of root tabs, so I think I may try adding a Seachem Root Tab to the sand bed under the plants. I believe this will give the plants a little head start above the algae. Honestly, I'm not looking for perfection here, just a little less of that nasty algae would be great. 

And I know, I know...... I need to change more water......

Thank you for your help!

-D


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

> Absolutely never used any ferts or root tabs in this tank - tap water and fish food only
> Water changes I try for weekly, but it's closer to monthly, though I'll change 50% to 70% of the tank volume at a time
> Tap water is typically about 300 to 400 ppm, reasonably hard, with a high pH around 8.2.
> 
> In my box of fish stuff, I do have the API test kits for nearly everything, including general and carbonate hardness and phosphate, if it would help, but just from experience I believe I'm running high on nitrates and phosphates.


The only nutrients your plants are getting is from the water change and fish waist. The plants probably deplete the water of nutrient a few days after the water change. When nutrients are scarce plant growth is very slow. And nitrate and phosphate levels tend to be high because the plants don't have enough nutrients available to use all of the N and P in the water. Also algae prefers water with some scarce nutrients so it does well. Plants however do better in nutrient rich water.

So doing a water change once a week and adding nutrients is going to help a lot. Both will help lower your high nitrogen and phosphate levels. You higher PH could however be a problem. Most fertilizers use FE EDTA or FE DTPA as a source of iron for plants. Unlike other sources of iron it dissolves easily in water. However EDTA doesn't work well above a PH of 6.5 and DTPA has a PH limit of about 7.5. Or you might have to use FE EDDHA which works well at high ph. But it is more expensive. Adding CO2 to the tank would also help lower the PH. You also might also have to mix some of your tap water with a soft to very soft water to Help get the PH down.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Thank you @Surf, this is very helpful for me as well.
Can you describe what these acronyms mean:
FE EDTA and FE DTPA
FE EDDHA

Thanks


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Sounds like you are really mainly focused on the fish …which is fine. Can you live with less than 4-5 hours of light per day, that will help tamp the algae down. Would also be helpful to see close-ups of the algae to see what types you have. We can sometimes target specific forms of algae if we know what they are.

There is no way that you will ever get the food that algae use out of your tank, no amount of filtering will do it – no way. It needs virtually nothing and can use the organic states, which can’t be measured well or at all in some cases (phosphates). Purigen will help, but not eliminate, with the nitrogenous organics, but will do nothing for the phosphates. Phosguard (and those like it) are not believed to remove much in terms of organic phosphates either, although it does remove orthophosphates. Besides, if you were to find some magical way to reduce these two organics to zero, your plants would be dead without additional fertilization.

With medium-high light and little biomass, algae is going to be a constant battle. So, since you can’t get to a long-term solution via many healthy plants, it may be best to simply try to keep killing/inhibiting the algae with scrapers and chemicals. For the few plants you want, at least keep a minimum level of necessary fertilizers in there. You can dose weekly if you want. Be sure of sufficient N, P, K and micros. @Surf is right about the pH issue with iron chelates, but Seachem Iron will not be affected by pH, so that may be the best iron option for you.

The coating on the substrate sounds a little like cyanobacteria, which is not algae and much easier to eliminate. Search this forum to see if you think that is what it is. 

As for the other algae:
- short photoperiods
- scrapers
- certain fish and shrimp that will feed on the algae
- glut (such as Seachem Excel) can damage algae while simultaneously feeding the plants
- cleanliness (filter and water changes as well as removing detritus) 
- search TPT for the “One-Two Punch”, it works.

As algae appears on decorations and other things that can be removed from the tank for cleaning, there is an easy way. Put the objects in a bucket covered with the topical hydrogen peroxide you buy in the grocery store. Next day it will all be gone and just require mild brushing to remove the light coating.


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## Detritus (Oct 7, 2017)

Yes, thank you, Surf, that was very helpful! I know you're talking about Iron (fe), but it must come in two forms, and I have no idea about those, I must admit. Perhaps you cold elaborate, if you wouldn't mind? I do fully agree, and think I even touched on it on my prior post, that the plants are not getting enough nutrition with the inert sand and just fish poop. I know adding pressurized CO2 would not only bolster plant growth, but help to lower the pH as well, but I'd really prefer to not add a CO2 system to this tank. Plus, I don't think just my one 48" Finnex light strip - even running on max for 8 or 10 hours a day - would be enough light to justify the CO2. I have other tanks I'm trying to put more effort and resources into, but not this one, if I can avoid it. I've seen beautiful, algae free low tech setups, though typically they don't feature Oscars and the ever-pooping pleco. 

So as I was thinking before, I believe the low-light plants I'm trying to grow (mostly Swords, Crypts, and Anubias) can benefit from root tabs, and I think I'm going to add some of the Seachem root tabs to the substrate as I'm planting the new plants. If I needed to, I do have the Seachem Flourish, Excel, and Iron additives available as well. I hate to come across as such a Seacham fanboy, but I have most of these fertilizers (and the API test kits) because I often buy (or are given) someone's whole tank setup when they get out of the hobby, and it seems like I get A LOT of these Seachem products. Then in looking for a phosphate reducer, and finding Phosguard, and reading user reviews, it looks like most of the Seachem line is pretty well received, and a decent choice for both beginners and/or lazy fish keepers, such as myself. So I'm willing to try some of their products here on this tank.

But I think increased water change frequency, and definitely getting some food for the new plants is paramount. After that, I may try the Phosguard, and then the Phosguard with the Purigen if the Phosguard alone doesn't help. That said, I'm not looking to have to buy more media and deal with that on this tank, so if increased water changes and fert tabs can help, I'll try that first. 

Thanks very much to everyone for your help!

-D



Deanna said:


> Sounds like you are really mainly focused on the fish …which is fine. Can you live with less than 4-5 hours of light per day, that will help tamp the algae down. Would also be helpful to see close-ups of the algae to see what types you have. We can sometimes target specific forms of algae if we know what they are.
> 
> There is no way that you will ever get the food that algae use out of your tank, no amount of filtering will do it – no way. It needs virtually nothing and can use the organic states, which can’t be measured well or at all in some cases (phosphates). Purigen will help, but not eliminate, with the nitrogenous organics, but will do nothing for the phosphates. Phosguard (and those like it) are not believed to remove much in terms of organic phosphates either, although it does remove orthophosphates. Besides, if you were to find some magical way to reduce these two organics to zero, your plants would be dead without additional fertilization.
> 
> ...


Hi, Deanna! Thank you for the reply. I am now stretching the limits of my old (and largely unused) bio degree and chem minor. I get what your saying about organic and inorganic phosphates, and I'm really not looking to add additional filter media if I don't have to. As I was mentioning before, I think I'll start with some root tabs and more water changes. I know I can never hope to keep my nitrates and phosphates in this kind of a tank down to very low levels, and I certainly understand that eliminating either will indeed result in plant death too.

Again, i fully understand what you're saying about the light and the photoperiod, I do, I really do, but I'm going to be stubborn here ;-) My wife and I just like having the Finnex 24/7 do it's thing. It's a nice effect, it's not great for the plants, but you're right - for this tank it's really about the fish. I'm a member here because I'm trying to up my planted tank game elsewhere, but these fish are our "buddies", my wife loves them, and I just want to do what I can to make this tank a little more presentable.

You know, I swear I do have a bio background, but in this case, yes, you are almost certainly correct to assume what's growing on my sand in really a cyanobactor. I was inded guilty of using "algae" a bit more generically than maybe I should have. I do have pics, I would be happy to share, I just have to remind myself where to host them so I can add them to posts here.

I also want to add that tomorrow I will break out the test kits and see if I can get a real handle on my nutrient levels. I realize it's speculative and simply noobish to guess and try to through things at it. Uhg, I just wanted a simple, easy tank my wife would like, lol! Here's hoping!

Thanks again!

-Detritus


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

I get it. I do the same thing. If it weren't for the fish, I wouldn't have a planted tank. I have always used too much light and too long. When I had a low tech tank (no CO2), Excel was my best friend in the algae fight.

I now have a high tech tank, but still too much light for too long (80-100 PAR at the substrate for 12 hours) ...but my wife and I like looking at the bright tank. So, I still have to manage the algae fight, but have gotten much better at it.


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## Detritus (Oct 7, 2017)

^ Thank you again for your help! Do you like the Seachem line of products in low tech tanks like this? I feel like the root tabs would benefit my situation, especially given the plants I want to grow (Swords, Crypts, Anubias primarily). I also have their Flourish, Excel and Iron. I was hoping not to have to dose this tank, but I've got these products, and could put them to use if it would help. 

Thank you again for your time and help!

-D


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Yes: Seachem products are top line. Root tabs aren't necessary. Everything can be dosed in the water column. Flourish is, essentially, micros only and has iron in it. If you use the Flourish, you probably won't need other iron products. The Excel will help with carbon supplementation. However, you are not dosing the important macros: N, P & K. It is likely that your fish are generating enough nitrate and phosphate (you plan to test for those). This leaves only the K. So, I would get some potassium and Seachem does supply it (Flourish Potassium) as do many other fert companies. Make sure your GH is where you want it. This is important for fish, too.


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## Detritus (Oct 7, 2017)

^^Wow, thank you very much! What started off as a simple question with what I had hoped would be a simple answer, ends with me pulling out the test kits and trying to get some kind of a real handle on what's going on. I very much appreciate your feedback and suggestions, and hope to follow up with this tomorrow. Thank you for tagging along, I very much appreciate it!

-Detritus


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> Can you describe what these acronyms mean:
> FE EDTA and FE DTPA
> FE EDDHAThanks


I didn’t see a reply to your inquiry, so thought I’d answer.

FE, of course, is iron. EDTA (cheapest), DTPA and EDDHA are chelators (pronounced key-lator). The idea of the chelators is to keep the iron in solution and, therefore, available to plants longer (plants can break the bond). Some of the metals in our micros are also chelated. Free iron can precipitate out of solution quickly, particularly with increasing phosphate levels. Of course, then it’s in the substrate and somewhat available to the roots for root feeders. There is also a gluconate form which is very weakly chelated. However, it is absorbed rapidly by plants, avoiding much of the precipitation issues. This is the form that Seachem uses in their Iron product.

The chelator bonds start (emphasis on the word “start”) to break down at different pH levels. EDTA starts in the 6.0-6.5 area, DTPA starts in the area above 7.5, EDDHA start in the 9.0 area. I say “start” because it doesn’t happen instantly. Example; at a KH of 4, EDTA will last a few hours, DTPA a few days. If dosing daily, it probably won’t make a difference. It might be more important for storage purposes. Example: if storing EDTA in solution, you’d definitely want the solution to be pH < 6.0. most of us have drifted toward the DTPA form over the years.


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## Detritus (Oct 7, 2017)

^ Thank you for addressing that! It was very good information.

-D


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Deanna said:


> I didn’t see a reply to your inquiry, so thought I’d answer.
> 
> FE, of course, is iron. EDTA (cheapest), DTPA and EDDHA are chelators (pronounced key-lator). The idea of the chelators is to keep the iron in solution and, therefore, available to plants longer (plants can break the bond). Some of the metals in our micros are also chelated. Free iron can precipitate out of solution quickly, particularly with increasing phosphate levels. Of course, then it’s in the substrate and somewhat available to the roots for root feeders. There is also a gluconate form which is very weakly chelated. However, it is absorbed rapidly by plants, avoiding much of the precipitation issues. This is the form that Seachem uses in their Iron product.
> 
> The chelator bonds start (emphasis on the word “start”) to break down at different pH levels. EDTA starts in the 6.0-6.5 area, DTPA starts in the area above 7.5, EDDHA start in the 9.0 area. I say “start” because it doesn’t happen instantly. Example; at a KH of 4, EDTA will last a few hours, DTPA a few days. If dosing daily, it probably won’t make a difference. It might be more important for storage purposes. Example: if storing EDTA in solution, you’d definitely want the solution to be pH < 6.0. most of us have drifted toward the DTPA form over the years.


excellent, many thanks.


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

> Can you describe what these acronyms mean:
> FE EDTA and FE DTPA
> FE EDDHA


FE is the chemical abreviation for iron:

EDTA is Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid So FEEDTA is ironEthylenediaminetetraacetic acid a salt that dissolves easily in water.DTPA FE EDDHA[/QUOTE]"]DTPA FE EDDHA[/QUOTE][/URL]

DTPA is diethylenetriaminepentaacetic acid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentetic_acid

EDDHAethylenediamine-N,N'-bis(2-hydroxyphenylacetic acid) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDDHA

Iron gluconate is an alternative to the other 3 but the gluconate molecule is food for bacteria, algae and plants. So Ph doesn't affect it much but you do have to dose once every day to once every other day.https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/23-algae/1278455-yet-another-please-help-algae-thread-considering-phosguard.html#post11105225


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