# angelfish water parameters



## aschaal03 (Feb 2, 2009)

Hello all,
I set up my 36gal tank yesterday. It's all up and running with no plants or fish added yet. I did a water parameter test and this is what I got:

KH: 250ish ppm
GH:250ish ppm
pH: 8.2
nitrate: 0
nitrite: 0

This tank will eventually be a planted south american tank with angelfish and GBR's (my first of either kind of fish). My issue is that south american fish like softer acidic water. When I measure the pH of my tap it is only 7.4 but for some reason the water in the tank has shot up to 8.2.

Three questions:

1. Do those pH neutralizer tabs they sell at pet stores really work and are they a good idea? I can't afford to get RO and I'd rather not have brown water from peat moss. Are there any other options besides these three that anyone has found useful?

2. Can angelfish and GBR adapt and thrive in a tank of these parameters?

3. Will having plants lower the pH or hardness at all? I have driftwood in there and will be adding plants tomorrow.

I'd really appreciate any info I can get. I'd rather do things right the first time than kill off a few fish in the learning process. Thanks! :redface:


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## aschaal03 (Feb 2, 2009)

Nobody?


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## Rion (Dec 29, 2006)

hmm... I've never tired the chemicals to lower PH but your water shouldn't raise is PH like that with your GH and KH so high... I might wait and see what you PH test says after you're almost done cycling. In terms of fish, the water here in Lansing is pretty hard and the PH is about 7.2-7.6 out of the tap and angelfish do just fine, not sure about GBRs though.


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## seAdams (Jun 2, 2008)

Tank bred angelfish are more forgiving of higher pH than Rams are.

What method are you using to cycle this tank? I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than I can tell you the effects of an uncycled tank on pH.

Personally, I don't care for using methods to raise/lower pH. Fish are usually much better off with stable water conditions than those that fluctuate, which is what is bound to happen when the chemistry is being maniupulated.


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

aschaal03 said:


> Hello all,
> I set up my 36gal tank yesterday. It's all up and running with no plants or fish added yet. I did a water parameter test and this is what I got:
> 
> KH: 250ish ppm
> ...


There is a lot of carbonation (dissolved CO2) in most tap water. As the CO2 dissipiates, the pH goes up. This takes less than 24 hours in most tanks.

I have water similar to you. GH/KH at 220/170. pH is 7.0 out of the tap, but 8.0-8.2 by the next day.



aschaal03 said:


> Three questions:
> 
> 1. Do those pH neutralizer tabs they sell at pet stores really work and are they a good idea? I can't afford to get RO and I'd rather not have brown water from peat moss. Are there any other options besides these three that anyone has found useful?
> 
> ...


I think pretty much everyone on this forum will tell you not to fight the pH. Most fish and plants will adapt. Those that don't you can just avoid. However, if you are interested in breeding, then you may need to fix the pH.

However, one option for lowering the pH is to us Aquasoil as your substrate. It will probably lower yours to about 7.4 (that's what it did for me), but your GH will remain high. What I can't tell you is how long it will last. Certainly Aquasoil can't keep the pH low forever. I just haven't seen anyone state how long.

If you decide to use Aquasoil, do *a lot* of research first. There are issues you will need to contend with, and you want to be well educated before going down this path. You may decide Aquasoil isn't for you once you start reading more.


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## aschaal03 (Feb 2, 2009)

seadams:
I've also read that manipulating the pH with chemicals is risky because of it's instability. But I thought I'd ask anyway. I am cycling the tank using Nutrafin Cycle. I just put plants in today, and will buy some starter fish probably Thursday, maybe later. Depends on what the water's doing at that point.

The water has been pretty much consistent at 8.0 since I've put it in the tank. I'm hoping that it will go down a bit naturally(even .2 would be great), it will help me sleep better :redface:.

cjp: 
I have already used Flourite as my substrate and it would be a real waste of time to change it after ALL that rinsing I did! :icon_lol:


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## aschaal03 (Feb 2, 2009)

I did a little more reading and apparently GBRs are even more sensitive to hard water with high pH than Angels are. I think, because I want to keep these fish, I'm going to have to do something about my pH/hardness.

So I can buy RO water from my LFS for .50 a gallon. If I were doing 10% weekly water changes with 50%RO and 50% tap this would be a very cheap way to maintain a lower pH.

Does mixing the RO with tap 50/50 work for most people? How much will RO water lower my pH/hardness?


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## seAdams (Jun 2, 2008)

> I am cycling the tank using Nutrafin Cycle.


Most products meant to cycle tanks are completely useless. I believe the only one that works is Biospira, which I think is now called Tetra Safe Start. Maybe someone else can confirm this?


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## aschaal03 (Feb 2, 2009)

Well, I bought the bio-max ceramic cylinders for my filter cartridges (emperor 400) to help the bacteria along and the lfs said that the nutrafin cycle would speed it up considerably. So I inoclulated the biowheels and the cylinders as well as the water. I checked the nitrite/nitrate levels this morning (used the stuff yesterday) and it was at about 5ppm nitrate with no nitrite.

I also saw 2 little snails crawling around in there that hitchhiked the plants. Those little buggers always do that to me! :icon_neut


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## legomaniac89 (Mar 16, 2008)

seAdams said:


> Most products meant to cycle tanks are completely useless. I believe the only one that works is Biospira, which I think is now called Tetra Safe Start. Maybe someone else can confirm this?


I used Seachem Stability in mine and it works well.

I've also used Seachem's powdered pH buffers and they seem to work great. My water from the tap is pH 7.6. After using the Discus Buffer for a week, the pH is down to 6.5ish and has stayed there for over a month.
Most other pH buffering products I've tried failed miserably, actually Seachem's is the only one that's worked reliably for me.


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## aschaal03 (Feb 2, 2009)

legomaniac:
How do you maintain this pH with water changes? Do you add a bit of the powder to the water to be added before adding it to verify the pH?

Also, would you advise still adding RO to tap before using this powder to make it easier to adjust the pH? Or was your water very hard before you used the powder?

Thank you very much for the info.


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## legomaniac89 (Mar 16, 2008)

aschaal03 said:


> legomaniac:
> How do you maintain this pH with water changes? Do you add a bit of the powder to the water to be added before adding it to verify the pH?
> 
> Also, would you advise still adding RO to tap before using this powder to make it easier to adjust the pH? Or was your water very hard before you used the powder?
> ...


Well I know the pH of the tap when it comes out, so I just add the buffer into a bucket with the new water and mix it until it reaches the desired pH

I don't see any problem with using R/O water, but I don't. Seachem's Acid and Discus buffers, which I use, lower the hardness of the water as the pH drops. Not sure exactly how it works, but I know it does.


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## aschaal03 (Feb 2, 2009)

How long have you been doing this successfully? Do you ever have any issues with the pH not staying consistent?

I'm considering trying this before I put any fish in the tank. It's either that or use R/O water for water changes every day until the hardness lowers .

I bought 5gal of RO today and did the water change and the GH dropped to ~150 but the alkalinity and pH are still the same as of now.


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## aschaal03 (Feb 2, 2009)

I think I discovered at least one of the reasons that my water is so hard and the pH seems to rise after I put it in.

I bought some rocks for it from my LFS and just tonight looked up what exactly they are. I got "Texas holey rocks"...which are made of LIMESTONE! I feel like an idiot. Apparently limestone slowly dissolves into the water and it is often used as a way to RAISE pH levels. :iamwithst So, back to the store tomorrow :icon_roll


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## legomaniac89 (Mar 16, 2008)

aschaal03 said:


> I think I discovered at least one of the reasons that my water is so hard and the pH seems to rise after I put it in.
> 
> I bought some rocks for it from my LFS and just tonight looked up what exactly they are. I got "Texas holey rocks"...which are made of LIMESTONE! I feel like an idiot. Apparently limestone slowly dissolves into the water and it is often used as a way to RAISE pH levels. :iamwithst So, back to the store tomorrow :icon_roll


Ahh, yes, that would do it. I've been there before actually.

I've been using the Seachem Discus buffer for about 5 months now in my South American tank and the pH has stayed very close to 6 ever since I started with it. 
I'd definitely get the pH to where you want it before adding any fish. pH swings are extremely stressful, if not deadly, to fish.


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## aschaal03 (Feb 2, 2009)

Yeah, that's the plan. I'm gonna see what the pH looks like after a couple days now that the rock is gone. I am gonna do a few water changes with pure RO water. If it stays pretty high, I will either try the discus buffer or blackwater supplement the guy at the LFS recommended.

Wish me luck!


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