# Questions about sump setups



## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

For everyone that prefers a sump setup, do you prefer internal or external overflow? My husband has become interested in running a sump instead of getting an Ehiem, so we have TONS of questions, lol.....

The hubby is leaning towards internal overflow put in the center of the tank, I think it takes up a lot of room. (We're going reef-ready to take equipment out of the tank!!) I'd prefer to have it in a corner if we go with that option, but he thinks it looks ugly from the side. So how do you go about setting up an external overflow? 

Does anyone have a journal or page where they show their setup? And where did you purchase it?

Sorry about all the questions, I'm usually a low-tech kinda girl.


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## Hop (Mar 27, 2004)

Using "internal and external" in the common terms I would say 100% internal.

Now this being said, I can break it down further by simply saying that *I would prefer not to use an external, hang on the tank overflow*. They often have issues and the cheap ones loose siphon and subsequently cause a flood... The exception might be lifereef, who claim that with proper flow they have not have one siphon break in all the years they have been building them.

Now I do have an external overflow on my reef tank where the overflow is placed on the outside of the tank, but is built into the tank and completely reliable.

Here is a picture of the tank. It's 370 gallons (342.2 actual) and you can see the overflow on the left here. I was just unpacking it.









Here is what you see from the inside of the tank... Nothing! Just teeth at the top, where the water flows out.


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

Awesome! That sure is slick looking.  Do you have a journal of your tanks on this site? I'd love to see them.

I started wondering this morning if the sump setups are expensive to run compared to just regular canisters? I sure don't wanna bite off more than we can chew there!


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## Hop (Mar 27, 2004)

Thanks. I have a journal on another site since it's a reef tank. Is it expensive to run? Yes... But my whole build is rather complex and the sump and stuff is 21' away in designated wetroom. Plus the amount of light required for a reef is way more.. I have about 1500 watts of light for this tank. My electric bill for this tank is about $170-200 a month. Unfortunately humidity and the possibility of a promotion at work, may lead to the disassembly of the tank or restructuring it into a planted tank... It's kind of apples to oranges and I have a ton of thinking to do

Heres a link to the build if your really bored
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=623983


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## Hop (Mar 27, 2004)

I guess I should clarify my response as not to scare you away from the possible sump set up... If done properly it would only cost a little more to run over a canister filter. A few downsides are that there is increased evaporation, there may be noise issues to overcome and there is a bit of math needed in the preliminary stages of planning to avoid floods. The positives however, are numerous... My favorites are all the equipment can be hidden and it's easy to work out a top off system to avoid frequent fill ups!


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## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

A lot of depends here. Do you already have a tank and plan on adding an overflow box? Or are you wanting to install just a standpipe? Is your tank already drilled? I found that internal overflow boxes are quite expensive and have heard that drilling the bottom glass on a tank can be very difficult if not impossible. I know that drilling the back glass is fairly easy if done correctly. Of course drilling an acrylic tank is cake. It is best when purchasing a tank to get one drilled with an internal overflow box already installed. I bought one this way, hard to see in this pic because the overflow box is covered with a huge weed, the tank is 30 inches tall.








If you decide on an internal overflow box, I would recommend a center box; easier to hide and does not impede side views, does not take up much room and still holds water. Additionally, I would recommend using a sump instead of a wet/dry filter. I started with a wet/dry that came with the tank and ended up throwing most of it away (bio balls, drip tray, cover, etc.) to increase water capacity. Here are some pics of my sump.
















Setting up and tweaking this sump was very time consuming. A sump or wet/dry has to be set up correctly or a very big mess will ensue. I have no journal but can give you particulars of the final product:
1. 30 gallon sump holds 22-25 gallons of water, this was possible by installing a check valve on the return plumbing to keep it from siphoning back into the sump when the pump is off.
2. Powerhead drives 2 sponge filters for bio filtration, purchased from Jehmco.
3. Pressurized CO2 with powered reactor contained in the sump controlled by a PH monitor.
4. 2-250 watt jager heaters connected to a controller purchased from Jehmco. I highly recommend using a heater controller on a large tank with a sump or wet/dry.
5. Magmun 250 charged with renew is hanging on the sump for chemical/mechanical filtration, I plan on adding another one soon.
6. Pondmaster 7 pump (same as a Mag Drive 7 and also made by Danner) located in the sump.
7. Eheim Liquid Doser takes care of the PMDD ferts for me.
8. Ball valves installed on the overflow plumbing facilitate easy water changes (see first sump photo). I turn the tank over twice in a month (220 gallons) and this has saved me lots of time/hassle doing water changes.
9. Durso standpipe installed in the overflow box can be purchased from Richard Durso or can be made by following instructions on his website. Eliminates the toilet flushing sound.
10. The return has a T-fitting where it enters the top of the tank and provides flow to both sides of the tank using locline.
The initial setup costs are more than most cannister filters (for sure competes with one of the larger Eheims) but I spend next to nothing in maintenance costs, just recharge the magnum with renew every 3 - 4 months. Works for me, I am not a fan of hang on overflows but to each his own. Hope this helps....DC


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

Diablo, thanks for your response.  My DH has the sump setup designed and is going to run it by one of the engineers at work since he has designed "wier" applications numerous times. 

We are going to order the tank reef ready from the manufacturer. We plan on picking up the tank this month on the 27th at a designated drop off location. :thumbsup: I'm very excited!!

The tank is 135 gal, and so far we're planning on using a 29 gal tank to run the sump in. My husband will be building the sump setup himself.

I'm going to have Tim (DH) read this post now!

Thanks!


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## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

jade_dragon71 said:


> Diablo, thanks for your response.  My DH has the sump setup designed and is going to run it by one of the engineers at work since he has designed "wier" applications numerous times.
> 
> We are going to order the tank reef ready from the manufacturer. We plan on picking up the tank this month on the 27th at a designated drop off location. :thumbsup: I'm very excited!!
> 
> ...


Kewl, what kind of fish/plants you planning?


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

I'm a sucker for my guppies, so I think I'm going to move them over from my 55. I also have 2 clown plecos, one common pleco (currently 3"), 7 cories, some ghost shrimp, and a few platties that are going back to the LFS or to my MIL once I get my new tank going. Not too exciting!! I think I'd like to add a school of rasboras, but not sure they would school for long with my non-threatening bunch. I'm also waiting on some cherry shrimp, so adding good hunters wouldn't be an option. I'd dearly love to have a pair of rams, but with my hard water and once again, the shrimp, I don't think I can.  The 55 will be converted to an Mbuna Cichlid tank with strategic planting to deter them digging them up.

I will be transferring over all my stem plants, and adding an assortment package (from either aquariumplants.com or Florida Driftwood). I know I'm doing a glosso section and some microswords for the foreground. From there I'll add my apons, crypts, and lotus. As far as an aquascape, I have no clue yet.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

You might want a larger sump. I am using 20 highs for my sumps (on a 75 and 65) and they are at the edge of not being enough volume to run the pump at a rate that creates some current in the tank. Unless you plan on using something else to suppliment the current.


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

Ok, my DH is wondering if his design would work in your opinions, so here is a sketch:


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## Hop (Mar 27, 2004)

There is a lot to digest here... The basics are good, but here are a few things.

1. You will want to build stockman or durso stand pipes for the overflow. The way it's drawn would work, but will take some serious noise without some type of an adjustment to balance the air/water mix. Heres a link http://home.nc.rr.com/stockmanreef/interest.htm and another http://www.dursostandpipes.com/

2. 1500 GPH is a lot for a planted tank. And a TON for a 29 gallon sump. You would most likely have some serious micro bubble issues. Turn over around 2 to 3 times the system volume per hour should be good. It's more important to have "smart" flow than max flow.

3. You can never have too many ball valves when things go wrong. I would put one on each drain, both returns, on both sides of pumps etc.

4. You will need to play with the height of the baffles and make sure that in the event of a power failure, you have enough extra capacity in the sump to cover the water draining from the tank.

Otherwise things look pretty good. Just some fine-tuning. If you have a reef club in your area, maybe take a tour of some of their sumps. It will help a ton to see the things in action before you build one.

Also, here is a good place to read about sumps etc, http://www.melevsreef.com/, just scroll to the bottom

Good luck!


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

Jade:

I would rethink several points: (Don't mind the tone, just trying to get it all out)

First, a sump is an open system. Water is added via the return pump and then overflows something and feeds back to the sump via gravity.

Outputs should be 150% the capacity of the returns. The returns are under pressure and will flow comparatively more volume.

The outputs as drawn are going to give unsatisfactory performance. The bent intake at worst will be a cycle of --> break siphon/increase the water level to restart siphon/Drain to the first hole where the siphon will break/etc. Each cycle will sound like a toilet flushing (same principle). Investigate a "durso standpipe" and then build one. Worst case is that they airlock and overflow.

The water return MUST NOT be restricted/controlled with ball valves. Your odds of a snail or leaf or apparition exactly the size need to block flow and pump the contents of the sump onto the floor are too high. It is work getting a sump quiet but it can be done (build a durso, PM for more help).

Your returns should be above the water level with a small/medium hole just below water level so when you turn of the return pump (intentional: cleaning or forced: power out) you don't drain 1/2 the tank into the sump (and onto the floor) [back siphon] A hole is less likely to fail than a valve.

You can make room for a heater/other equipment in the sump and a "rex reactor" on the return pump.

I will have to run the math, but 1500 GPH at 4' head may be excessive. The spec for a 1" bulkhead can go as high as 700 GPH but it is my experience that > 300 GPH is pushing it. Put a ball valve on the outlet side of the pump to restrict flow if in question.

So looking good, lots of these problems have already been solved etc. and are minor.

PM if you would like details etc.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

A link to a prior discussion. See post #11 for pics of my hang on overflow.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=12568&


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

jade_dragon71 said:


> Ok, my DH is wondering if his design would work in your opinions, so here is a sketch:




Guys, this is Jade's husband Tim. 

Thanks so much for the replys. Some of the comments answered alot of the questions that I had prior to this initial design. Now, as far as the inlets are concerned, I wanted to clarify that they were intended to be shown as durso style inlets, inside of an overflow box. Two 1" pipes. That being said, I've read that your tank is supposed to cycle 6-10 times per hour. Is this true? Because that is what I was basing my initial pump size on. If thats not, then I guess we can back the pump size down to control the amount of flow coming into the sump.

I did some research on the flow rates of 1" pipe, schedule 40, and a plumbing supply company stated that the flow of a 1" pipe is around 25 gpm. Would having 2 1" supply inlets be too much supply, or enough for the pump. Also, is the 29 gallon sump, enough storage, or should we size down the pump? The head on the pump is approx 7 feet, to my closest scaled measurement. Head loss at that length is about 12 gph.

In the drawing, the box around the inlet/outlet pipes is the overflow box (internal). This will control the height of the tank, and allow minimal water back into the sump. Correct? The check valve will control the water that is remaining in the system if the pump should happen to be shut off. Correct? The style of tank overflow is based off of the design in this picture:









I also found an article on the durso site stating that they don't recommend using two durso's in a shared internal overflow. Ok, so whats the solution? Well, what about dividing the center overflow into two overflows by simply putting a divider in the middle?

Example of dual:


















I am also thinking about using the perforated PVC to keep the snails out of the inlets.
Example:










I'm just double checking myself here, so bear with me. As far as the outflows are concerned, are they too restrictive? I've got them routed into the internal overflow refuge and pumping into the tank from there. The will be sealed from the refuge as to only pump water into the tank and not into the refuge.

Anyway, thanks again for your much needed answers and guidance. I'm completely new to this whole sump thing, and am wanting to make sure that my design is functional and well thought out before we call the tank maker to order the tank.

Thanks again,
Tim


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## Hop (Mar 27, 2004)

Hey Tim,

Glad to have you on board. The initial steps are the hardest. I planned my first reef tank for eighteen months and still had a few hiccups!

I'll try to answer as much of the questions as I can. First read the durso link I gave you. With 1" pipes, you still need a slightly larger stand pipe for some reason to avoid noise. Personally I would go with a single 1 1/2" or 2" drain. Inevitably one gets restricted or they are not 100% even and one takes more flow. Balancing each is a fine task, with the air/water mix. In my tank I have two 1/ 1/2" drains, but only one is used, the second is just a tall pipe, incase there were a big problem, I could handle another 1200 GPH or if the main drain became clogged, I would still have that "just in case drain".

I'm sure 6-8 times for a planted tank is good, but 6-8 time turn over through a 29-gallon sump can cause problems. Water begins flowing at a rate, which the air bubbles cannot escape and you are left with microbubbles in the display. This is why so many reefers use a sump as well as a closed loop. I still think "smart flow" on a planted tank is more important than turnover. Keep in mind that 2 1" drains will still only be able to handle about 1200 gallons. 

Yes the height of the overflow keeps the tanks water form completely draining. But this is where the dursos come into play and you can raise and lower them to raise the water in the tank... To keep things up and not 1.5" from the top of the tank. I would skip the check valve also. Over time they will fail, they add to headloss and it winds up to be a great place for debris to clog. I've read nightmares with 500-gallon tanks draining because of a bad check valve. Better to do the proper math and calculate the amount of extra water your sump needs to take on.

In regards to your returns, I like bigger returns. It makes the flow more natural, rather than the jet stream at the car wash... I'm running 6 1.5" returns on my tank.

As far as the sump design it looks good. Keep in mind that a common mistake is placing the baffles too close together in the sump. 2" minimum distance... For the 1200 GPH I have flowing through mine, the baffles are 3.25" apart.

Here are some pics of mine, keep in mind that it's a reef tank... Apples to oranges here, but same idea.


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

Thanks Hop for the information. I read more into the durso drains, and am going to rethink some more of the design. Do you think that by cutting the pump size down by half would be safe for the size of sump that we are planning on using?

Thanks,
Tim


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## Hop (Mar 27, 2004)

Yeah.. Any where between 5-800 gph I think is a safe bet. Like I said before, if you have a reef club in your area, see if you can get together with a member and do a tour. Tons of ideas and a good idea about pumps, drains etc. I wish i had that option when I built mine. Would have saved a few headaches! One being the sump with baffles too close together $100 ooops on that one...

On a side note, I hope you do a build log on this one... I would love to see this come to life:biggrin:


Edit... Also to increase flow through the sump, you need to make the sump wider to alow more water through each baffle without increasing the amount of flow at any given area. I hope that makes sense?


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

Yep all makes sense. I do plan on doing a build log for this project. Hopefully, will get one started real soon.


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

*question about sump & CO2 Loss*

Ok, here is my question. (This is Tim BTW) I've heard alot of people talk about C02 outgassing when using a sump design. My wife told me that people curb the loss by putting a lid on the sump and redesigning the way that the water flows into the sump initially. Submerge it. If this is the case, here is my idea. In the drawing above, you will notice that I have the pump drawn, then up from there a ball valve from there a check valve. I looked at the Rex Reactor, and was wondering what would be the problem of plumbing in the C02 injection say in-between the ball and the check valve? It's on the output stage of the pump correct? If its not as simple as that, couldn't a person basically plumb a reactor in at that particular stage of the system? Just some ideas that I had floating around in my head, and needed some extra input on them.

Thanks Guys/Gals for the help, once again....

Tim


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

*changed pump specs....*

I did some thinking about the pump size, and I think I can step it down a size and get the required flow rate that I am needing. I started a photo journal here.

http://aquaria.tswn.com

Its far from done yet, but its a start.


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## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

After looking at your drawing, I offer a few suggestions keeping in mind they are sure to attract disagreement but this has worked for me:

1. If you plan on a show tank and putting it in a living area like your family room, visit someone that is operating an external pump, can be noisy. Internal pumps are quieter and no external plumbing to leak. Everyone I've met with an external pump in their living room wished they went internal. An internal pump has all that water to deaden the noise.

2. Put your drain port in the overflow plumbing not the return. Look at my pic. The pump will drain the sump by pumping the water into the tank entering the overflow and then exiting through the ball valve connected to a hose bypassing the sump (becasue the ball valve leading back into the sump is closed and the one connected to the hose is open). Additionally, cannot make a mess because all connections are over the sump. If you look closely at my setup all plumbing is over the sump, get a drip or leak (and it will happen) it falls into the sump.

3. Put the largest sump that will fit into your stand, make one out of acrylic if need be, the more water you have the better. Make sure you leave room in the stand for extras, it was luck all my crap fit, not planning. I have no room left in my stand.

4. I have a 700gph pump that is probably closer to 600gph due to head loss on a 110 gallon tank. You are proposing over twice the flow and only 25 more gallons. Really think you are going to find that way too much flow and your overflow will not support it. The flow of a tank with a wet/dry or sump is a function of the overflow capacity not the pump. If you are pumping more water than the overflow can handle, mess on floor out top of tank. If you are pumping less water than the overflow needs, mess on floor out top of sump. Been there, done that. An option is to choke the return, but why spend money on a pump that is not needed and then induce back pressure that will shorten lifespan.

5. I am assuming that you are planning on this tank being planted and eventually have CO2 injection. Keep water turbulence inside the sump and back into the tank to a minimum. No need for baffles and run the overflow plumbing to the bottom of the sump and 90 degree it. Oxygenation is not required, the plants will do that for you.


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

Thanks for the input Diablo... 

I decided to downsize the pump, and look at the sump size as I think it might be at the tail end of the rec. sizes. I found somewhere that they say that your sump is supposed to be around 20-40% of your tank size, if thats the case, then my sump is too small. But, that all depends on how much flow you want correct? If your tank is supposed to turnover 3-5 times an hour on a moderately stocked tank, then your flow rate should be around 540 gph, using an average of 4. If that is the case, I think that the smaller pump should work just fine. Let me get this straight here, if your drains can flow 1200-1500 gpm/ea, then the supply to the sump shouldn't be a problem. Correct?


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## Hop (Mar 27, 2004)

Not to disagree, just adding some input on my personal experiences

Just a few quick things... Internal pumps cause heat. For instance a Mag 7 will raise the temp of your water 3-5 degrees. I highly recommend Pan World Blue line pumps. They are external and you won't notice it running. Very Quiet... So are several other brands out there.

Also, baffles help to rid the water of microbubbles! Not oxygenate the water. If you have a really long sump, you can go with out a few baffles, but on any sump less then 60" in length I would add the baffles as piece of mind.

Lastly yes, I have heard of people covering their sumps to aid in Co2 retention. The problem is that as water flows through the durso, you have to add air to the mix in order to balance the flow/siphon effect. This causes air bubbles in the sump, making it hard to cover and seal airtight.

Just some ideas, good luck.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

Tim:

Often the hole in the tank is 1". By the time you add a bulkhead the clear aperture is < 1" More like ~3/4!

You calculation of head loss seems low to me. I know my 700 GPH pump (Mag 7) on 60 gal (~4' head) works out to ~ 350 GPH open or ~ 300 as run (ball valve on output).

I agree with the prior on the water change valve. The pressure side will cause problems. Try building a PVC goose neck to drain the tank to ~1/2 and then add water into the sump.

Making sure the sump never overflows on power out is easy:
Fill with pump off to maximum you are comfortable with (~1.5" from top for me) and mark.
Run pump for ~10 min and mark. this is your max fill with pump on.

There is CO2 loss which will outgas DIY (don't place DIY on a Rex reactor) but with compressed you might simply have to use more gas. Gas is cheap (~$10 for 5lb which lasts me ~ 3 months) Get a larger CO2 tank if in doubt.


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

*Information overload LOL!!!*

You are probably right on the head loss. I think I am going to up my sump size to a 38 gallon tank. Using the design that I have above, and the increased sump size, what would be the recommended pump size? I just want to make sure I get it right. If you guys have any links to places where they give you formulas for calculating the sump size, that would be a huge help. I've found a few places, but I don't know if they are applicable to what I am going to be doing. Also with the durso, what do I have to expect as far as tuning the durso. I thought about using an air type valve on the top to adjust the airflow. Would this work ok?

My head is beginning to hurt... LOL!! I am beginning to wonder if running a sump is worth the hassle...... I think it is, but at this point my brain is still trying to process all of the information in front of me.... LOL!!:eek5:


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

Ok, another quick question. In the folowing calculation, when it says minimum sump volume, is that the volume of the sump area, or the volume of the container that is being used as a sump?

Using the following input parameters
Tank Length = 72 inches
Tank Width = 18 inches
Height of Water above Overflow = 2 inches
Flow through sump = 590 gph
Sump volume is calculated as
Sump Volume need to handle tank overflow = 11.2 Gallons
Recommended Minimum Volume for sump = 17.1 Gallons


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

*Figured the sump size.... hopefully....*

Ok, this is kinda what I figured up, you might check my math here:

Tank used for sump: 30 gal dims 30(L) 12 (D) 18 (H)
Inflow elev below overflow 2"
Volume of water above inlet: 11.22 gallons

Volume of water in sump for normal operation: 13.25 gallons @ 8.5" ((8.5x12x30)/231)= 13.25 gallons

Total available volume in sump 28.05 gallons based on dims above, less baffles and equipment displacement.

Did I figure that right? 


Thanks guys for being patient whilst I learn this stuff. 

Tim


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

????

I guess you are trying to calculate the volume then the pump shuts off?

Try drop in main tank (mine ~0.5", so figure ~1")
Then multiply by difference in surface area.
This will tell you the change in height in the sump. I get ~ .5" drop in the main tank which is ~1.5" in sump?

So you are going to need ~ 2" of "room" in sump?


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

Yeah, I'm just making sure that I have enough room in the sump area, if the pump were to shut off.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

Tim:

So starting with "in my humble opinion (IMHO)"

You are on the right track. Buy the tank, buy the biggest sump you can fit and a pump that is rated ~600-900 GPH @ 4'. When everything arrives, make a trip down to you hardware store and play with some PVC. 

If you are getting this tank and stand custom you might want to consider a wider tank too. Not too much more in cost but gives room from for/mid/back ground for planting. (Ie. I dislike the standard 55 gal as it is 12" wide) Otherwise proceed as planned! 

I would not mind if you started a journal here too!:thumbsup:


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

Yep the tank we are going with is 18" deep. It's a HUGE step up for us, being that we currently have a 55 gallon.:thumbsup: Oh being that I host a few sites anyway, I started an online journal for the tank setup. You can view the journal here. http://aquaria.tswn.com

Check out the forums. I've started a few categories in there for the setups.


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

*Question about outflow height*

Should the outflow height be the same as what the overflow height is? Like for me, I think I am going to follow what Hop suggested and run 6 - 1" outlets to get a more natural flow. Would the top output have to be set at the durso elevation? I'm still wondering about the check valve. If the check valve works like it should on the output stage, it would keep the tank from backflowing through the outputs... Correct? But, if I chose to leave the check valve out, how high would I need to set the output, I am assuming that it would need to be at the same elevation as the durso.

On the sump design, I think that I am going to insist on a 38 gallon sump. If I were to run it at 8.5 inches deep at normal operation, it would give me the desired capacity for backflow retention, and overflow protection. Being that my durso will be set to 2" below the overflow, the sump should have no problem with the extra 2" of water that could possibly backflow in the event of a power outage. 

Ok, sump is designed, dursos are designed, now to make sure that the overflows are big enough, to be able to supply the required flow for the pump. What figure do I use to measure the current flow of the designed overflow, and better yet, where does one go to find the formula for it?

Sorry for asking so many questions.... again....

I'm actually starting to understand all of this stuff.... LOL.... Every time my wife looks at this post she just shakes her head.... "glad you know what they are talking about, she says"
"I'm just the plant/fish person, you take care of the technical mechanics of it!" Makes me laugh...

Thanks for the help, as always,
Tim


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

Ok, got the overflows calc'd. I used 1200 gph for the flowrate of my overflow. Is this ok? 

Here is what I came up with. Using 2 separate chambers ( on chamber divided in the middle) as to ease the tuning of the durso stand pipes. (Hopefully) I am going to use a trapezoidial shaped overflow: (L1=18") (L2=12") (S1=6.71") (D=6") (H=23.5")



Using the following input parameters
Gallons per Hour = 600 (each chamber will handle this)
Drain and Overflow sizes are calculated as
Recommended minimum drain pipe diameter = 1.01 inches
Recommended minimum linear overflow size = 9 inches (per chamber)

I am getting around 25.42 Linear inches of overflow. (total)

Ok that part is solved.....


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

Ok, here is the updated calcs for the sump....

Using the following input parameters
Tank Length = 72 inches
Tank Width = 18 inches
Height of Water above Overflow = 2 inches
Flow through sump = 1200 gph
Sump volume is calculated as
Sump Volume need to handle tank overflow = 11.2 Gallons
Recommended Minimum Volume for sump = 23.2 Gallons (Using 38 gallon tank)

Ok here is my next problem solved. What pump size to go with...

Head Loss Calculator

Vertical length in feet 4.8333333
Horizontal length in feet 2.208333333
Pipe diameter in inches 1.00
Choose your pump: Blueline HD 30x (780 gph)
Number of 90 degree elbows 4
Number of 45 degree elbows 0
Number of gate valves 0
Number of ball valves 2
Number of union couplings 2
Number of swing check valves 1
Number of pipe exits 6
Number of pipe entrances 0

Total losses are 6.7 feet of head pressure, or 2.89 PSI. with a flow rate of 519 GPH


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

I recomend going down to your hardware store and looking at a bulkhead. If the hole in the tank is 1", you have to allow for the part of the bulkhead that fits through.

The "male" piece:
http://63.64.44.56/pages/images/plug threaded.jpg


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

Im not sure what you mean BR.... I understand what the bulkhead looks like, but are talking about the head loss through it?


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

Sorry to nag, you quote 
"Recommended minimum drain pipe diameter = 1.01 inches"

This is the ID of the pipe and the size of the hole in the glass. When you add a bulkhead to seal the hole in the glass you are going to have a restriction as the clear section is < 1". So flow rates will be limited by the bottleneck so to speak. Now if the hole in the glass is larger, say 1.25" and the bulkhead has an OD of 1" you are in the clear.

So I am saying that the drain might be more restricted than you calculated for. 



jade_dragon71 said:


> Im not sure what you mean BR.... I understand what the bulkhead looks like, but are talking about the head loss through it?


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

Gotcha...:thumbsup:

BTW, You weren't nagging, I just wasn't sure what you were talking about LOL!

Tim


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

Well I think I have the sump design finalized. I am going to try a few things in the sump that might seem a tad odd, but I think that they might work. I am trying to curb the CO2 outgassing, and eliminate the micro-bubble problem that will occur with the siphon. As soon as I get it drawn up I will post it here. The sump will have about 6 or so baffles, in a particular series, as to help stabilize the water somewhat. I'm still pondering it a bit, but I think it will work.

Tim


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

Not to jump in again, but microbubbles is a much bigger problem in salt water tanks as I understand (ie, protein skimmer is not nearly as effective in fresh). Also the "rex reactor" on the pump side seems to deal with any air captured by the pump.

I would suggest backing off on the design elements (more to remove) as you still want room for equipment (heater) to get them out of the tank. I would do chamber A where the tank drains with one baffle/machenfilter (big sponge) at B retainer to hold sponge and C) pump/equipment side. So every 6 months/year take the sponge out and clean.

As far as CO2 outgassing, it is not too big of a problem. You might use more gas but that is one of the cheaper parts of the system. You will be getting into the sump often to top up water or remove hitchhikers that took Mr. Toad's wild ride. Keep it simple and you are more likely to do maintenance etc and enjoy the tank.

So I look forward to seeing your post, looks forward to the aquascape. Ping me when you need some plant material.


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

I appreciate any and all comments when it comes to stuff like this, as I am a huge novice, and will probably make some mistakes. So anything you guys can pass off as advice I take seriously.

The one thing that I have to consider is the weight on the floor where we are placing the tank. I think I am going to reinforce the joists with a couple more 2 x 10's and call it good. I would think that would be enough support to hold the weight of the tank(s).

Thanks,
Tim


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

The correct term is "mattenfilter" search google image or this site.

I do not run a prefilter on the durso so fish food/snails/fish travel to the sump.

So I chose to light the sump and keep a few fish and plants in it.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

This is an interesting thread. Looks like its going to be a really well thought out tank. Also, who is making the tank and stand, if you care to share? FWIW, I wish I had bought a 120 gallon 2 foot deep instead of my 90 gal 18 inch deep. Someday maybe a sump too! Good luck. Also, I looked at your journal start! :thumbsup:


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

Hey guys/gals!

This is who we are purchasing our tank from. We are getting the tank/stand/hood in a package deal off of their ebay store.

http://www.glasscages.com/

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4310997665&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:IT&rd=1


We are purchasing the tank, the hood and the stand from the manufacturer, so the cost is almost half of what we would spend from a retail outlet. Ebay saves the day again!

I think I will make a trip to the plumbing store tomorrow and check out the supplies that I am going to need to get this thing up and running. I checked at the glass shop yesterday, and they are going to cut some of the baffles for the sump for a very reasonable price.

I think we are getting very close to pulling the trigger and ordering the tank.


One last question, for the durso, what size of bulkhead do you recommend, and what size of hole do I have them drill? I am planning on running a 1 1/4" tall pipe for the durso(s). I checked into alternative ways of tuning the air intake. I think that I can install a petcock or some sort of small brass valve to tune each durso more precisely than by just drilling the air hole out. Does anyone have any objection to that? In my mind I think that it would work just fine, but like I said above, I am a novice at this whole thing.

Anyway, Mel (the wife) is wondering if I will ever get my own user id on this forum, I guess I will have to do that. LOL!! Anyway, thats all I have ATM. 

Laters all, and thanks!

Tim


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## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

jade_dragon71 said:


> Hey guys/gals!
> 
> This is who we are purchasing our tank from. We are getting the tank/stand/hood in a package deal off of their ebay store.
> 
> ...





jade_dragon71 said:


> Well I think I have the sump design finalized. I am going to try a few things in the sump that might seem a tad odd, but I think that they might work. I am trying to curb the CO2 outgassing, and eliminate the micro-bubble problem that will occur with the siphon. As soon as I get it drawn up I will post it here. The sump will have about 6 or so baffles, in a particular series, as to help stabilize the water somewhat. I'm still pondering it a bit, but I think it will work.
> 
> Tim


If you email Richard Durso he will answer any questions you have, he helped me out and is a great guy. Here is his email address:

[email protected]

A durso standpipe will not work without the airhole, several different ways to do this have been placed on his website:

http://www.rl180reef.com/frames.htm

Have you planned the location of the equipment in your sump? What type heater(s) will you use and how will you place in the sump with those baffles installed? (I did not notice any heaters or other hardware in your sump drawing.) Heaters should be placed on the bottom, when you forget to turn them off during a water change (and you will), no damage will occur. If heaters are located in the sump below the intake strainer of the pump they will never be below the water line unless you completely drain the sump. Those baffles baffle me, they will limit your water level in the sump, you will be stuck with a certain capacity. I do not understand "stabilize the water" and the need for baffles. Could you explain to me what unstable water is for this application?


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

Thanks DC for your reply. As far as the air hole are concerned, my thinking on it was simply this. If you install air valves, something similar to a small valve for your water supply line for your ice maker on your fridge in the top of the durso that you can open or close to allow different ammounts of air in with. By running two dursos, I read on his site that they will probably be more difficult to tune than if you ran one durso. Something like this...









As far as the sump goes, I think I will stick to a simple design moreso than what I was proposing. Initially I think my thought was that there was going to be a raging river trying to go through the sump. After looking at a few different designs, I don't see the need for the baffles. And yes there will be enough room for heaters and such in the bottom of the sump. Although, I will run 3 baffles in the middle of the sump, spaced 2 1/2 inches apart and 9 1/2 inches high. This level will give me enough reserve capcity for any water above the durso inlet.

I spent alot of time this past weekend reading on different types of setups, methods of "doing things", and the one thing that I have found that to be common, is that everyone does it a little different. Which is sooooo cool! It gives me a huge array of ideas to glean from. Of course some of the methods of figuring reserve space and whatnot are common to everyone else, even though the resources for getting them are probably totally different. For me it has been through the knowledge and experience of everyone else that has aided me in my journey. For that, I thank you!

Like always, thanks for your input,

Tim


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

Tim:

My control airvalve is a hole drilled through the cap that I simply rotate to change the exposed diameter. I did not glue my Durso (not worried about leaks, easy to take apart and clean.) The solution you posted if for people with salt creep problems primarly.

If that is the tank you are getting, I would ask for the optional predrilled holes and overflow box as there is always a really big risk of breaking the tank. Most built in overlows I see are black plastic.


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

Yeah, we are going for the predrilled holes, as I would rather the manufacturer break the glass than a glass shop after I buy it :wink:. I'll play around with the durso's some. I'm sure I'll either run with the valve, or just the adjustable hole.

Thanks again,

Tim


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## tama_drummer_73 (Jan 13, 2006)

*Finally got my username*

Ok, ok, I won't be posting under my wife's account any longer. :thumbsup: 

Well, I went to the plumbing store over lunch. Bought alot of stuff... Still have to buy stuff...

Time to play:thumbsup:


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

OMG! :icon_eek: Finally, lol.......(j/k dear!)


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## tama_drummer_73 (Jan 13, 2006)

*Durso's Built*

Well I built the durso's today. You can check out the images on http://aquaria.tswn.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5&forum=4

The final lengths aren't set yet for the stand-pipe and the perforated pipe. The tank will have to be here to accomplish that.


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## tama_drummer_73 (Jan 13, 2006)

jade_dragon71 said:


> OMG! :icon_eek: Finally, lol.......(j/k dear!)


Yeah..... well...... :icon_eek:


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## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

You did a really good job drilling those holes! Did you hacksaw all those cuts? Me had to use a pvc cutter, can't saw or drill straight. I think you will find the airvalves hard to tune but the best solution for a dual setup. Did you email Richard for tips on a dual setup? Can't remember, is the standpipe diameter supposed to be larger that the bulkhead diameter?


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## tama_drummer_73 (Jan 13, 2006)

DiabloCanine said:


> You did a really good job drilling those holes! Did you hacksaw all those cuts? Me had to use a pvc cutter, can't saw or drill straight. I think you will find the airvalves hard to tune but the best solution for a dual setup. Did you email Richard for tips on a dual setup? Can't remember, is the standpipe diameter supposed to be larger that the bulkhead diameter?


Yeah, I used a wide blade mitre saw to cut the pvc. I haven't emailed Richard yet, I just read all of the documentation on his site. When I get the airvalves installed, I will shoot him an email. He suggested using 1 1/4" thinwall PVC instead of schedule 40. Said that it flows better. I figured that I might as well do what he suggested. As far as the bulkheads were concerned, I didn't really have a choice. The plumbing supply store was out of 1 1/4" bulkheads, so I had to go with 1" I think that I can deal with the little bit of flow loss. As far as the tuning goes, any suggestions on that?


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## tama_drummer_73 (Jan 13, 2006)

*Going to order the tank(s) this week*

Well, I think all of the calcs have been calc'd, and I think its time to order that bad boy!:thumbsup:


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## tama_drummer_73 (Jan 13, 2006)

*Question about the drain....*

Ok, by now you have seen my drawing. I am planning on installing a "quick and easy" way of draining the tank. If I have it on the outflow side, I can use gravity to force the water out of the tank and drain the tank that way correct? I will have 6 outflow outlets, 3 on each side of the durso's, like in the drawing. the water will drain out of those instead of the durso's. I will have shut off valves in front of the pump and behind the pump. Being able to control the water from being able to flow back into the sump. Will this work? I should be able to fill the tank from there also correct? Anyway, thats my idea. Im just checking to see if it will work.


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## tama_drummer_73 (Jan 13, 2006)

Well the tank(s) are ordered, and should be here in a little over a week. I will pick them up on the 27th in Oklahoma City.


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## tama_drummer_73 (Jan 13, 2006)

*Tank has arrive, sump tank broke....*

Tank is here, but the sump tank arrived off the truck broken. They are going to build another tank and ship it out.

Here is the journal post.

http://aquaria.tswn.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&topic_id=7&forum=4


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## tama_drummer_73 (Jan 13, 2006)

*Sorry bout the images...*

Well something happened to the names of the images... (hint hint DW), and they got renamed to something else. Anyway, the images are back up on the page.:thumbsup:


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

??? Please provide drawing. 

The purpose of the internal overflow box is to dramatically limit the minimum water level. Ie the water need to spill over the top of the internal box. 

As mentioned earlier, your returns will have small holes at/slightly below water level to that when the power to the pump is removed, the return syphon breaks. ANYTHING else dramatically increases the odds of water on the floor. The T on the return plumbing can only pump out the volume of the sump. 

I recommend considering the 50% drain a separate problem then the pump as I would not like to see you flood.




tama_drummer_73 said:


> Ok, by now you have seen my drawing. I am planning on installing a "quick and easy" way of draining the tank. If I have it on the outflow side, I can use gravity to force the water out of the tank and drain the tank that way correct? I will have 6 outflow outlets, 3 on each side of the durso's, like in the drawing. the water will drain out of those instead of the durso's. I will have shut off valves in front of the pump and behind the pump. Being able to control the water from being able to flow back into the sump. Will this work? I should be able to fill the tank from there also correct? Anyway, thats my idea. Im just checking to see if it will work.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

I would suggest having black plastic insets/covers for the overflows cut. Your Durso's are beautiful, but distracting.


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## jade_dragon71 (Dec 2, 2005)

BlueRam said:


> I would suggest having black plastic insets/covers for the overflows cut. Your Durso's are beautiful, but distracting.



Yeah...Tim mentioned that we're gonna have the glass shop make some for us. Now to come up with a scape to obscure the overflow areas w/o making it look too symmetrical.....lol


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## tama_drummer_73 (Jan 13, 2006)

*Thanks!*

Hey Blue Ram,

Thanks for the comments. Well the good news is that I won't have to worry about the tank draining out the outflow. With the tank that we got the overflows came without any holes in it, so the outflows will be at approx the same height as the overflows. I am having to modify the design some to accomodate the way the overflows are built, which isn't a problem, just a minor change in the design some. 

As my DW stated, we are going to have the covers built at a local glass shop. Thanks for the much needed help.


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## tama_drummer_73 (Jan 13, 2006)

Sump is in....

http://aquaria.tswn.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=8&forum=4


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## tama_drummer_73 (Jan 13, 2006)

Here is a few pics of the stand stained....

http://aquaria.tswn.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9&forum=4

The durso's are completed and glued to the bulkheads. The water level of the overflows will be around 1.5 inches below the display tank water level.


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## tama_drummer_73 (Jan 13, 2006)

Well good news, I finished the stand this past week, and had to let the final coat of varnish harden for 72 hours before I took the stand home. Its at home now and the tank is now on it. It turned out much better than I had hoped. I had to cut a hole in the side to allow us to get the sump in. 

You can view the pics here.

http://aquaria.tswn.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11&post_id=20#forumpost20


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