# Toxic Riparium Plants?



## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

I have long had an issue with Nerite snails and Amano shrimp in a particular tank I have, with plants growing above the water surface. I have recently upgraded my tank to a larger size, and started running all external in-line equipment. The only thing in the tank is pretty much my emerged plants and rock substrate (no dirt). I am having the same issue so I pretty much have come to the conclusion it is one of my plants that is toxic. 

Amano shrimp stay in the corner by the intake tube, and their lungs turn white on the sides of their heads before they die. They do not really graze or swim, just stay by the intake until they die as if they want maximum water flow. The Nerites die within days, sometimes within hours. I am running an air pump attached to a cergas reactor so I know O2 is not an issue...the water is very oxygenated now to remove a variable. 

I know Dracaena is toxic to some house pets, and I do have that in there. I will list out my plants tomorrow to see if anything rings a bell for anyone.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Okay so here is a list of plants I have in this tank, anything with an asterisk (*) is toxic on some level according to Google. 

* Dracaena
* Pothos (two species)
* Arrow Head
* Ivy
* Dieffenbachia (Dumbcane)
Garlic
Wandering Jew
Anthurium 
Croton
Button Fern
Dwarf Palm (Areca)
Fittonia
Spider Plant
Prayer Plant


Not sure about the others, most research is done for house pets and not aquatics. My grandmothers 5 gallon planted shrimp tank is losing RCS one by one, seemingly a week or two after I added a planter with Pothos and Peace Lily...so I think one of the two plants in that planter are killing the RCS...but not affecting the snails. 

In my riparium it is a different story, both shrimp and snails die. The shrimp in the riparium do not even eat they have an empty digestive tract. I have three more plants not on the list I can not identify, see the photos below. I have a watermelon looking vine, something that resembles a corn stalk, and some sort of grass I got from a pond edge.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

All the houseplants I know of as being toxic, you've already noted on your list. I saw your posts before about the nerites dying and wondered if it was the dieffenbachia or pothos.... but I never heard of them being toxic to inverts, just housecats or kids that chew on them.... 

Have you tried removing the known toxic ones, or putting the nerites into a tank that doesn't have the riparium plants?

The first pic of unknown looks like wandering jew plant to me, but you already say you have that one under the identified list, so I don't know what it is- unless a different variety of the same type of plant? Curious, because it's pretty.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Yes removing them keeps them alive, it is one of these plants (or a combination). It is very frustrating because this could be a very long process of trial and error. 

I think you see the purple wandering jew in the background, I blurred it out. I am talking about the green plant that looks like a watermelon.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

I removed the two baskets on the left side, that have Dracaena, Arrowhead, Ivy, and Dieffenbachia (Dumbcane). I did an 80% water change and added a Nerite and Amano. It has been 12 hours since I added the Nerite and it is showing signs of closing up, only an hour since I added the Amano. I am now looking at the remaining plants and I am eyeballing the Croton now...not a common riparium plant yet Google says it is very toxic.


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## AdamTill (Jan 22, 2015)

Teebo said:


> I removed the two baskets on the left side, that have Dracaena, Arrowhead, Ivy, and Dieffenbachia (Dumbcane). I did an 80% water change and added a Nerite and Amano. It has been 12 hours since I added the Nerite and it is showing signs of closing up, only an hour since I added the Amano. I am now looking at the remaining plants and I am eyeballing the Croton now...not a common riparium plant yet Google says it is very toxic.


Not if it's this style of croton:









I've had this one for months with snails, shrimp and fry in the tank. Even had leaves fall off and decompose fully in the tank.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Dammit! That is the Croton I have, only I have the thin and narrow leaf version. A dwarf if you will. This is so frustrating, I wonder if plant toxins are stored in driftwood like a sponge even if I removed the bad plant. I noticed my Amano shrimp do not eat, their digestive track slowly goes clear after I add them to the tank and they sit still, no grazing. This tells me something is irritating them, and possibly causing nausea. The snails die fast, I have other tanks with the same tap water with no issues.


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## Fishnshrimp2 (Sep 13, 2013)

After a quick search Anthurium is also supposed to be toxic. I would try removing this plant if you have not tried that already.
It is related to the peace lily.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Oh really? I have to remove another basket to find out and I will. I removed the snail that seemed to have died and it took about 8 hours for it to bounce back in another tank.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Still continuing this journey, by removing the two left baskets I was able to get Amano shrimp to live longer and have an appetite, and be active, however ultimately dying quickly when they do go out. This however did not help me keep Nerites alive so there is still a troublesome plant somewhere. I have finally removed ALL the baskets and did a 50% water change, I will see if I can get a Nerite to live in there now and if not...another water change.


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## grizzly_a (Sep 9, 2014)

I know you said oxygenation isn't an issue, so I assume you're not using the pressurized CO2 under the tank?


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

No I am not using the CO2 yet, however I am not using oxygen right now either so that could be an issue I am overlooking too.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

All the plants are removed, I did a 99% water change in the tank. However I left the water in my canister, reactor, UV and heater + lines. It still kills Amano shrimp and Nerite snails! 










I think the remaining water is the system is highly unlikely to cause this same issue, unless it is a virus or fungus or something that regenerated from the bottom system. I tested the water, no ammonia or nitrites. I am using the same "Primed" tap water I use for my other tanks. I am feeding an air pump into the reactor right now, no gas. Now I am looking at potential issues with the UV I may try unplugging it to see if it is a factor here...another thought was my canister media being contaminated. It is just sponges, floss, and Purigen. If something like metals entered the water and the Purigen soaked it up, if it hit its holding/absorption capacity would it then begin releasing them back into the water column after water changes?


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

I am still fighting this, with all the plants now in a tub of water I added a snail to the tub and it has been alive for weeks now...I am ruling out toxicity of all my plants. 

Looking over my system I found some red growth between my canister pump and CO2 reactor. It looks very much to me like saltwater coralline algae. Any idea what I am dealing with here?! This very well may be the factor!


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## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

Do you have any copper plumbing or aquarium products that contain copper? I think I see some shiny bits in your under-cabinet setup.


Stop testing the water with expensive Amano shrimp! Don't you have some trumpet snails you could use?


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

I do not have any Trumpet snails I do not keep them since they disturb my substrate. 

Oh yeah! Not copper but I have brass fittings on the in/out of the UV! Could it be the brass maybe? Brass contains copper so...yeah this may be the problem!!


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## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

Teebo said:


> I do not have any Trumpet snails I do not keep them since they disturb my substrate.
> 
> Oh yeah! Not copper but I have brass fittings on the in/out of the UV! Could it be the brass maybe? Brass contains copper so...yeah this may be the problem!!


Disturbing substrate is a good thing! They keep my dirt hydrogen sulfide free 

And yes, the brass could be it! Copper is invertebrate-death.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Yes but not when you have a carpeted floor they just destroy it and mess with leveled surfaces. I just poke the substrate instead. 

I will remove the brass ASAP! Thank you!


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## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

Teebo said:


> Yes but not when you have a carpeted floor they just destroy it and mess with leveled surfaces. I just poke the substrate instead.
> 
> I will remove the brass ASAP! Thank you!



Ahhh that makes sense.

Let us know if that works! I love whodunits!


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

*SOLVED*

This drove me nuts, I spent 8 months running this down. To the point I turned that bowfront tank into a nano reef tank but I continued my experiment with a 10 gallon. I finally got to the point I was able to keep shrimp and snails alive when I removed the planters completely with a HOB and no substrate. Then I slowly added the plants back and I have ruled out plants as the source toxin. 

The brass in my system was a major factor, and so was the ultrasonic fogger by the surface that rusted out beneath its chrome plating. The thing is my dirted substrate held the copper, and so did my hydroponic clay pellets! Those pellets were the last straw and now I am okay.


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## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

Thanks for posting the results! 

Yeah, copper is a real killer for inverts. If inverts are dying but fish are alive, it's almost always copper.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Just to elaborate on this, after all my extensive experiments I have determined the hardiness of certain inverts in respect to copper tolerance. 

Snails: Nerites are far less forgiving than Apple/Mystery snail, which can seem to tolerate copper to a higher level. 

Shrimp: Amano shrimp are very hardy, obviously much hardier than Crystals, but I can not weigh in on Red Cherry vs. Amano. 

Nerite Snails vs. Amano Shrimp: The snails go up in flames within 24 hours while the shrimp seem to last several days to a week. So as inhumane as this sounds, and it is if you do it intentionally (I did not), you could test your water for copper by using a Nerite snail then work your way up to an Amano shrimp as your second level. I feel really bad but this is what I discovered.


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## Freder Frederson (Dec 18, 2016)

I know you've solved it but the plants toxicity will have been in the leaves and stems, not the roots. As for Diffenbachia/Dumb Cane I woon't have it in the house, nasty plant, it's not just digestion that can cause issues but skin contact too.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Fantastic that you finally figured it out but wow, what frustration in the meantime. I'm impressed you stuck with it instead of just giving up on this individual tank.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Detailed breakdown here: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/8...g-solved-separating-male-female-snails-9.html


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## theatermusic87 (Jun 22, 2014)

I didn't see this earlier or I could've saved you some effort, since I keep 80% or more of those same plants in my riparium with shrimp no problem... DOH! anyways did you narrow it down to whether it was the brass fittings or the rusting fogger as the source of the contamination?


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

theatermusic87 said:


> ...did you narrow it down to whether it was the brass fittings or the rusting fogger as the source of the contamination?


I was not able to determine that, as the hydro pellets predated the fogger units submersion therefore they could have held either or both. That may be my next experiment because I really loved my fogger unit


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## Aquaglory (Apr 18, 2021)

Fishnshrimp2 said:


> After a quick search Anthurium is also supposed to be toxic. I would try removing this plant if you have not tried that already.
> It is related to the peace lily.


Hello everyone. I’m new to this forum. I too would like to grow some emersed plants with only the roots in water. Like you, I’m trying to avoid the ones toxic to invertebrates. 
Just wanted to share with you that I have had an anthurium (common red variety) with its roots in a 10 gallon tank for about 2+ weeks, now. I have Neocaridina that I just got around the same time. (My original plan was to put the shrimp in a different tank, but something was not right, so they ended up in this one, instead).

The shrimp were weakened by shipping and a drastic pH change (from 6.0 to 7.5) and Neos are more delicate than Amanos. The shrimp all made the transition and seem to be grazing well without signs of distress (constant swimming as if trying to find a way out) like they were showing in the originally intended tank.

Therefore, it appears that the anthurium is not toxic to the shrimp (two week trial and no water changes, yet)!


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