# Truce: Soil vs Inert Substate



## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Point taken. I do try to suggest the route of most simplicity and success for new folks though. If people are setting up their first planted tank, I'll steer them from capped dirt every time if I can. I've had immediate troubles, 3 month in troubles, and 2 year in troubles using it. And that's as a hobbyist with 30+ adult years keeping aquariums. I understand the benefits but there are things that can go wrong that will not if just using inert. Similarly, while I use aqua soils in 5 tanks at the moment, I would never dare suggest a first timer to set their new tank up using them. Eliminate variables. Get a good light and put it on a timer, keep hardy plants, use an inert substrate and fertilize appropriately for the growth you have and you will have success. Once that hobbyists enjoys success, they will branch out in the direction that interests them. To me the most important factor is that they have success. Even if that's just their crypts spreading or an Anubias flowering, it fosters their interest and love for this side of the hobby.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

The worst issue is when it takes a dozen or so posts in a thread to drag out what someone really has in their tank and the advice has already been given from several sides.

The thread direction takes a tangent to bickering and the OP is never heard from in that thread again.

This happens quite often.


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## jayo (Sep 21, 2016)

Also, soil folks should keep in mind that "soil" can mean several different things in the hobby, ranging from commercial aquasoils, to backyard soil (primarily mineral), to potting mix (completely organic), and they all are quite different in handling.


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

Sorry, I think I could have worded that better.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Maryland Guppy said:


> The worst issue is when it takes a dozen or so posts in a thread to drag out what someone really has in their tank and the advice has already been given from several sides.
> 
> The thread direction takes a tangent to bickering and the OP is never heard from in that thread again.
> 
> This happens quite often.


Agreed. 

The approach for inert vs. active substrate is so different that it should be included in every tank discussion. 

And new folks using an active substrate but not understanding it's effect is common here. You really need to understand what you are dealing with to be successful.


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## Haus (Sep 3, 2019)

I'm not only new to this forum but also to planted tanks. My first tank is a 40 breeder. I started it as a dry start using black diamond worm casting organic soil capped with about 3/4 inch of black sand from the lfs. I used dwarf baby tears and s. Repens, both tissue culture. After ten weeks I flooded and after the second day i had water like weak coffee color. Determined this to be from my malaysian driftwood that I didn't pre soak. Added more plants, which didn't do so good. Added co2 . Realized my light was way to weak. Added better lighting, upped co2. Got some much needed help from a local expert along with some dry ferts. Plants are growing so fast I can hardly keep up with trimming. Water is clear, had fish for about 2 months. My only problem and I think it may be due to soil, has been with high phosphate levels. Tap water test very low for P. I currently have no test for GH or KH. But do know our water is very hard. I'm told the phosphates aren't going to harm the fish and the only algae problem I'm dealing with is string algae where the light is strongest in the middle of the tank, half way up on the driftwood. Planning a startup on a 2nd 40 breeder and really don't feel I've had allot of trouble with the soil. Just trying to understand the phosphate issue. To worry, our not too worry. To soil or to eco complete. Any thoughts? Alan


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

It's too bad substrates like aquasoil aren't a little more durable when setting up the tank. I agree many people don't understand what they're getting into when they use this type of substrate. So many simply mishandle it and don't take the instructions seriously when using it. If used correctly it really is a "substrate for dummies" and makes it almost impossible not to grow plants if all else is in place.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

It might be helpful for newbies joining the site to get in their "welcome to the site" email a sample template on how to post about their tank that includes all the important parameters like tank size/footprint, substrate, lighting, substrate, water parameters, etc. And some examples of each. 

It bothers me to see a newbie post about a problem they're having, only to get pounced on with scolding responses of "we can't help you because you didn't provide the right info." If they knew the "right info" they probably wouldn't have to ask their questions. Even worse when site members start bickering amongst themselves. It's no wonder some run to the hills never to be heard from again.....


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

There has been a recent trend of over complicating the hobby. You don't need a 4-year degree to grow nice plants or an entire lab of test kits...The essentials other than the API master test kit is probably just the KH/GH kit. Know your source water from water reports and then pick your plants based off of that. See what your LFS and local hobbiests can grow so you can set your expectations. Once you do that, the most important aspects are a healthy soil, deciding CO2 vs not, and then finally lighting in my order of importance. Fertilizer is probably the least important aspect once you know your water and your plant choices. 

Also, what I generally think is that water changes need to be emphasized more for the first 1-2 months. The first few weeks of a new tank are when algae will strike and you should expect to devote 2-3 hours a week to cleaning your tank for that first month of ownership before you can add a sizeable population of grazers (amano shrimp (1-2 per gallon), SAE (at least 1 per 10 gallons for tanks big enough), oto (3-5 per 10 gallons)). Also, don't despair when things don't go right. Keep doing water changes, scraping the glass, dosing excel etc... A high energy system will ALWAYS grow algae. Reef keepers would laugh if you told them to add grazers at the rate plant keepers recommend...build your trophic table up. Scavengers and grazers should outnumber your secondary consumers by 10x. 

Everyone wants a magazine-spread like aquarium and that just isn't in the cards for most people just starting out. Especially when you have people in the hobby actively steering new comers away from turn-key systems like ADA.


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## Econde (Oct 13, 2015)

Desert Pupfish said:


> It might be helpful for newbies joining the site to get in their "welcome to the site" email a sample template on how to post about their tank that includes all the important parameters like tank size/footprint, substrate, lighting, substrate, water parameters, etc. And some examples of each.
> 
> It bothers me to see a newbie post about a problem they're having, only to get pounced on with scolding responses of "we can't help you because you didn't provide the right info." If they knew the "right info" they probably wouldn't have to ask their questions. Even worse when site members start bickering amongst themselves. It's no wonder some run to the hills never to be heard from again.....


This.. I have seen this too many times. Especially the more recent posts. Starts off constructive with differing opinions/experiences. Then other members start insulting those legitimate responses.

Anyway, I've gone both routes. Currently I am trying my hand on soil and it's been a little tough. It's only been the 3rd or so week and I had plants die off just within this week. I am thinking I need to change the water out more often then not. Mind you I have nothing in the tank aside from snails and it's currently still cycling.


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## Jordantanked12 (Sep 6, 2019)

*Please let me know. (JUNGLE VAL)*

I’ve grown aquarium plants before but not jungle val. To my understanding jungle val propagates via runners above soil. I’ve got 4 new vals and two of them are sending out runners only a week later. But the runners are going into the gravel instead of top. Like running parallel to gravel. Is this normal or is something up. It was initially in gravel but I moved the gravel aside so it doesn’t rot.


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

> Fertilizer is probably the least important aspect once you know your water and your plant choices.


I would have to disagree with this. For starters the water reports provide by utilities can very from detailed to basic. And even with the detailed reports some crucial information can be missing. Most of the time the mineral content of tap water alone cannot support plant growth. And even if you use a fertilizer you might not get plant growth. None have calcium or nickel and many don't have enough of several micros. Many people use soil substrates because that can make up for the deficiencies in fertilizers and tap water.

If all it took was reading the water report, getting a test kit and selecting appropriate plants when we would be seeing all the deficiencies people are experiencing. Some people are simply blessed with very good tap water. Most are not. 

My experience with potted plants has been that i can get good growth easily . Even with Orchids. It is not that hard. But when I tried aquarium plants it was a completely different story. it has taken me about 4 years to get consistent growth of plants. Why? my water had few nutrients in it. My substrate was inert. and several fertilizers I tried all were poorly balanced. I was constants going from one deficiency to another.. No fertilizer I tried would worked consistently. It wasn't until I made my own micro fertilizer that has changed. Now every plant I have put in the tank grow. Some better than others but there is always growth. 

Each person is going to have different experience with a planted aquarium due to differences in water substrate, fertilizer and fish stocked in the tank. Each tank ends up being different.


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

I have grown plants in austin, houston and the bay area. What fertilizer you choose and all this tweaking and "roll your own" is frankly unnecessary and drives people out of the hobby for no reason. My opinion is to pick a system and work with in that framework. I have always done EI or some variation of it. Doesn't matter if it was liquid rock or snow melt. If I kept up with maintenance (WCs, trimming, cleaning) I could grow anything. 

Again I emphasize, firstly soil (natural garden soil, worm castings, tropica, ADA) then CO2. From there you can figure out if you need a strong or weak light and if you are wanting a strong light you add more fertilizer. If you choose a good complete one (ADA, EI, Thrive, tropica) all this tiny tweaking is unnecessary. 

Know if you have hard water or soft water. Pick your plants accordingly. Then build the right foundations starting from the soil. Keep your water changes up. Build a base of grazing animals. It is not a big secret. I think many european and asian aquascapers have moved on about being concerned with fertilizers and lighting and focus more on soil and upkeep....yet people in the US are focused on these things that have minimal effect on your ability to grow plants. Trying to replace dirt and elbow grease with chemical formulations is setting up many to failure.


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## Leeatl (Aug 8, 2015)

ThomasJ22 said:


> I’ve grown aquarium plants before but not jungle val. To my understanding jungle val propagates via runners above soil. I’ve got 4 new vals and two of them are sending out runners only a week later. But the runners are going into the gravel instead of top. Like running parallel to gravel. Is this normal or is something up. It was initially in gravel but I moved the gravel aside so it doesn’t rot.


They send runners under the soil and won't rot . You will see a tiny new plant pop up somewhere near the mother plant . You can just cut the runner near the mother plant and at the new plant and move new plant wherever you want . Leave a little runner on the new plant so you have something to bury and hold the plant till it roots in .


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## Jordantanked12 (Sep 6, 2019)

Alright cool thanks. And even if the runner is growing towards the bottom ?


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Jeffww said:


> Especially when you have people in the hobby actively steering new comers away from turn-key systems like ADA.


 True.

One reason is because the methodology of ADA and few others is 180 degrees away from some other practice. The other reason is that some people know for sure that pH less than 7 is deadly acid melting bones and glass in seconds. 

On this site, the most ignored thread would be “What we can learn from ADA approach” despite the fact that the majority of aquariums on this planet are ADA type or similar.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Jeffww said:


> What fertilizer you choose and all this tweaking and "roll your own" is frankly unnecessary and drives people out of the hobby for no reason.


Jeff respectfully disagree. 

All depends on your goals and ambitions. 

Replacing CSM+B with "roll your own" micros was a game changer for many. But it really pertains to high light high tech tanks full of fast growing flowery stems and sensitive species. Low or medium tech tanks may not see as much benefit.

Same for macros. There is some fine tuning with macro ferts that can definitely make a difference. But you have to be paying close attention, and have the desire to get as many plants peaking at one time as you can. 

And soil is not fool proof, and is not magic in any way. Burr did a test a while back using Aquasoil, and it wasn't much different than inert. Each has it's own set of issues that needs to be understood. And each has it's pluses and minuses. Choose what you will but research and understand what are you dealing with.

Now that being said, nothing beats good old fashioned elbow grease and getting light/CO2 and maintenance dialed in. That can not be over emphasized. All the tweaking in the world won't save you if you don't get the basics right. 

But the deeper one gets into the hobby, the more the devil is in the details.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Greggz said:


> ...All depends on your goals and ambitions.
> 
> And soil is not fool proof, and is not magic in any way. Burr did a test a while back using Aquasoil, and it wasn't much different than inert.


I agree about the goals and ambitions. It's almost never one size fits all. There's just too many players in the hobby, but I'm curious about this Burr test on AS. 

Maybe I don't understand the context, but that would be very surprising to me considering all the N in the soil to begin with. The only thing it seems to lack initially is K and some micros.


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

Greggz said:


> Jeff respectively disagree.
> 
> All depends on your goals and ambitions.
> 
> ...


I have not found that to be the case. I have my own box of micros purchased from a fellow member. I enjoyed playing with them for a month before realizing I was getting little improvement in my color, especially for the effort. I work in a chemistry lab 50 hours a week. I don't need to be fiddling with this and that at home. 

I think importantly we need to realize we shouldn't give "power user" level advice to a new comer. There are methods to get excellent and reproducible results with minimal tweaking and yet people are getting barraged with everyone's homecooked secret formulas. EI, ADA, Tropica all work and work well across the US, europe, SA, and asia. There is no denying it. So why are we so fixated on these minor details when big picture paradigms are working for the rest of the world? I am sure there is some headway to be made in playing with nutrition but it's not a "usual suspect". You can achieve 80% of what you want using only 20% of the effort so to speak. You can grow macrandra, and difficult lythracea using EI et al. 

Refocusing the discussion, I am just airing my concern that many users here steer newcomers away from tried and true methods first. Or not suggesting the obvious: that they increase their upkeep from trimming, water changes, and filter cleanings first. This even comes down to the soil vs inert argument as well. We know from tanks around the world that soil is beneficial. So why _not_ do it. If you don't like the mess there are other options to you like tropica soil and ADA....


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

ThomasJ22 said:


> I’ve grown aquarium plants before but not jungle val. To my understanding jungle val propagates via runners above soil. I’ve got 4 new vals and two of them are sending out runners only a week later. But the runners are going into the gravel instead of top. Like running parallel to gravel. Is this normal or is something up. It was initially in gravel but I moved the gravel aside so it doesn’t rot.


Not an ideal thread to ask this in, but all Val will send runners deep when happy. Will take a quick snap from the back of one of mine:










These started with one plant at the back right corner. No worry on root rot, the plants send the runners where they want to, and always under the substrate surface. You will probably find that many will pop up far away from the ideal location -ie: very front of the tank against the glass, etc.

But back to the subject at hand, ours is a slow hobby to reward us. That's not common in this day of instant gratification. If new folks can only wait through early diatoms, loss of emersed growth, and figuring out what will live under their lighting and water, we might just have a new life-long planted tank hobbyist. I'll be the first to agree that good lights, CO2, and a solid fertilizing regimen will make the prettiest tanks. But I feel we should allow people just starting to ...well, just start. Help them have a a fish tank with plants that grow and thrive with a minimum of work.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Streetwise said:


> Sorry, I think I could have worded that better.


Is this going as planned?

Please provide some feedback to alter this threads direction if needed???


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Jeffww said:


> Or not suggesting the obvious: that they increase their upkeep from trimming, water changes, and filter cleanings first.


Well, we agree 100% on that.:grin2:


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Asteroid said:


> I agree about the goals and ambitions. It's almost never one size fits all. There's just too many players in the hobby, but I'm curious about this Burr test on AS.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I don't understand the context, but that would be very surprising to me considering all the N in the soil to begin with. The only thing it seems to lack initially is K and some micros.


 @Greggz, was it this one? https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...&share_tid=876457&share_fid=4235&share_type=t

If so, your memory is failing you. So did mine to be honest. I forgot too that it was merely osmocote loaded vs not for purposes of "root feeding" experiments. 

@Asteroid, you were not given some context. It was done in the presence of EI dosing. The premise was would a plant care where it was getting nutrients from in the presence of EI and i suppose by extension, would it even matter if the substrate was inert.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

ipkiss said:


> you were not given some context. It was done in the presence of EI dosing. The premise was would a plant care where it was getting nutrients from in the presence of EI and i suppose by extension, would it even matter if the substrate was inert.


Oh, if that's the one that's a bit different. The old Root Feeder Myth. Will plants starve themselves if you don't provide ferts to their roots. Yes I'm on board with that one. I've never found plants to be that snobby, even the graceful sword.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ipkiss said:


> @Greggz, was it this one? https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...&share_tid=876457&share_fid=4235&share_type=t
> 
> If so, your memory is failing you. So did mine to be honest. I forgot too that it was merely osmocote loaded vs not for purposes of "root feeding" experiments.


Nope starts here......but you have to have a lot of stamina to follow it to the end. An interesting experiment indeed.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1117642-120-gal-dutchy-freestyle-now-35%25-less-water-volume-65.html#post11087377

Bump:


Asteroid said:


> Oh, if that's the one that's a bit different. The old Root Feeder Myth. Will plants starve themselves if you don't provide ferts to their roots. Yes I'm on board with that one. I've never found plants to be that snobby, even the graceful sword.


That was pretty much Burr's finding. 

Very, very little difference in adding root tabs to water column dosing. 

Now only root feeding soil substrate and no water column dosing.......look to Vin Kutty's kill tank thread for an eye opener.

Bump:


Edward said:


> On this site, the most ignored thread would be “What we can learn from ADA approach” despite the fact that the majority of aquariums on this planet are ADA type or similar.


 @Edward you have to keep this in perspective of ones goals.

I was chatting with Vin Kutty this evening, and this is a quote....

_But if you wanna scape a Dutch tank, inert is as good as it gets._

We all have different goals. The trick is picking the methodology that best suits those goals.


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Is this going as planned?
> 
> Please provide some feedback to alter this threads direction if needed???


Back in the day, I was a mod on forums for pro audio, and we had to diffuse all the Mac vs PC arguments. Once we got past the drama, the troubleshooting advice was different for each platform, but we could all share advice on plug-ins.

Personally, I am an organic soil guy, but I admire all the folks who are measuring, dosing, water-changing, etc.

My other hobby is sailboat racing, and I race a small fast monohull. Other folks race foilers, catamarans, cruising boats, etc. Some advice is really boat or boat-type specific, some applies to all sailing.

For the aquarium hobby, on forums, I think we need to add context to all of our advice, and avoid sales-pitching strategy or tactics unless you are on the same page.

I do IT all day, so I want simple at home. Someone else might be locked in at work and want to trim all the lines at home (like my sailing), but on a tank.

Cheers,

Jason


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Greggz said:


> That was pretty much Burr's finding.
> 
> Very, very little difference in adding root tabs to water column dosing.
> 
> Now only root feeding soil substrate and no water column dosing.......look to Vin Kutty's kill tank thread for an eye opener.


I'll have to read through it when I'm in the proper frame of mind. Before I read it I could see it for certain stems, but I could also see the AS being better for carpeting than root tabs. Don't know if that was addressed.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Is this going as planned? Please provide some feedback to alter this threads direction if needed???


 Who’s betting on how long it takes for this thread to get locked up?


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Greggz said:


> Nope starts here......but you have to have a lot of stamina to follow it to the end. An interesting experiment indeed.
> 
> https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1117642-120-gal-dutchy-freestyle-now-35%25-less-water-volume-65.html#post11087377


OHH! right, I had forgotten that he switched!! Seeee, he updates so little nowadays I don't even know what he's up to. Speaking of switching... let's not forget @Maryland Guppy went from soil to inert! 

:grin2:


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

ipkiss said:


> OHH! right, I had forgotten that he switched!! Seeee, he updates so little nowadays I don't even know what he's up to. Speaking of switching... let's not forget @Maryland Guppy went from soil to inert!
> 
> :grin2:


I could write a novel on this topic! >
In the end a soil based tank IMHO will provide the best growth and variety of plants!
The only ammannia I have left is bonsai, go figure, the easy one!
The golden, senegalensis, and red nesaea are all gone!
@Edward it won't get locked up yet, no one is being combative! 
Give it time, it will end up as whale crap and the bottom is deep!


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Maryland Guppy said:


> @Edward it won't get locked up yet, no one is being combative!


 You’re right, one is on a probation suspended for 10 days, and the other two culprits are still in the process of thinking how to approach this issue and get away with it again. Don’t you love it too?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Streetwise said:


> Back in the day, I was a mod on forums for pro audio, and we had to diffuse all the Mac vs PC arguments. Once we got past the drama, the troubleshooting advice was different for each platform, but we could all share advice on plug-ins.


That's funny.

The Porsche vs. Corvette wars have been equally as brutal for decades.

The thing here is that we should all be on the same side. 

SHOW me a tank full of healthy plants that are well presented, and I want to know more. If you can't show me, little interest there.

Would love to see more aquasoil/ADA tanks with fast growing stems and a well presented "dutchy" look. I know of a few (and they are spectacular), but not many. 

In the end, whatever works is good by me. I have not seen a method yet that is fool proof, and doesn't take a good deal of effort to get it right. If it was easy, everyone would have a spectacular tank. It's pretty simple, every single one I know of works harder at it.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Whats a "well-presented tank?" 
Certainly what appeals to my eye and suits my goals can be distinctly different than your own.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

You don’t have to guess what’s coming next here, yes, it is the usual … “fast growing colorful flowers” ... again, and the next one is … “I would be extremely interested if there is one” ... and … “I would love to learn more about it” ... , sure you do, we know.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

As a planted tank newbie myself, I'm glad to see this discussion. I had my own challenges starting with a soil tank that went through two months of every kind of algae imaginable--and even some experts here were telling me to give it up and start over. But thanks to lots of good advice and handholding, I made it through and can start to enjoy my tank now. But I can easily see newbies getting scared off by all the conflicting advice they get, and the daunting prospect of thinking they have to master CO2 & EI dosing, high PAR lighting, deciding on soil (and which kind) vs inert, etc. And of course all the technicolor fruit stand pics help create unrealistic expectations--we're not gonna all be supermodels after all. 

The reason Diana Walstad's approach is so popular is that it is simultaneously obtainable and instructive in all the basics all beginners need to learn. And Dennis Wong's site is also a great resource that covers the gamut from low tech to high tech--and explains the difference & rationale for each. Other good resources are the Tropica website that has lots of great inspiration with their simple low tech tanks, George Farmer's aquascaping videos, and the AquaPro videos--esp the ones that explain some of the basic science. One of the best pieces of aquascaping advice I've seen on here is to look up the aquascaping contest winners from around the turn of the century before high tech took over the hobby. There are some beautiful low tanks there that are actually achievable by newbies w/o having to invest thousands in high tech toys, and countless hours learning how to dial in high CO2 & lighting, fert dosing regimens, etc. 

If I understood the OP's intent correctly, when offering advice to newbies we need to meet them where they are--not where we think they should be, or where we are. As others have said--if we do it right, we get a new person hooked on the hobby. And the angel who gave them the right advice gets his wings......


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Discusluv said:


> Whats a "well-presented tank?"
> Certainly what appeals to my eye and suits my goals can be distinctly different than your own.


I am not referring to any particular style. 

Could be low tech, high tech, no tech. I've seen outstanding examples of all of them. 

To me, you can pretty easily recognize when someone has arranged a tank with care and purpose. That is what most folks are in the hobby for. To create a visual presentation that appeals to their eye. 

And I really don't understand how some consider this a fight between methods. There are outstanding examples of each that are easy to find. Doesn't make one right or the other wrong. 

I understand how ADA tanks are managed, but it is not where my interest lies. But that's me. For others, it might be the perfect solution. Pick a substrate and methodology based on your goals, then learn as much as you can about it. The more knowledge you have the better your odds of a successful start.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

I do think Aquasoil will get you from A to B faster than inert. There has always been that explosive start for me when using it compared to inert. I don't think it compares to using root tabs as far as taking care of the entire tank (stems and foreground carpets.) Once depleted if not refreshed I think the gap between the aquasoil and inert closes dramatically. 

So it's easy to see why aquasoils are used by scapers so often since they want to get things up quickly and some might very well take the tank down and start another scape before it depletes. Not to say all nice scapes are this way, but people that like to turnover a tank and start new scapes often it's a perfect substrate. So again this goes back to what @Greggz stated about goals. 

BTW What's an ADA tank anyway. I think most here simply use the aquasoil and few follow the methodolgy to the letter. Most use different lights, ferts, filter media, etc.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

One person is suspended for ten (10) days because they've insulted other members - and this is only what I've kept track of - more than 80 times. They should honestly be banned because it's non-stop bickering, fighting and jackassery. Completely unacceptable in life and especially on a plant forum.

You have *zero* idea what happened with other members in terms of warnings and infractions because you aren't those people. Speculation and whining about moderation will get you nowhere. 

Don't want it to get shut down? Don't insult other members.

If anyone wants to bicker and fight? Let me know and and the moderation team will be happy to show you the door. Enough of this childish crap. (That's not directed at you, Edward, but everyone.)



Edward said:


> You’re right, one is on a probation suspended for 10 days, and the other two culprits are still in the process of thinking how to approach this issue and get away with it again. Don’t you love it too?


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

I think our moderator has to deal with the forum equivalent of cyanobacteria, including explaining that it is not actually blue-green algae.


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

Streetwise said:


> I think our moderator has to deal with the forum equivalent of cyanobacteria, including explaining that it is not actually blue-green algae.


But it stinks like BGA!


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## CatsMeow (Nov 9, 2009)

I'm not new to aquariums, planted tanks, or fishkeeping. But, I am not super active in online forums - I tend to go hot and cold. I’ve posted comments in an attempt at conversation, and gotten slapped by some rude jerk for doing things wrong. Well, I’m not doing things wrong – I just wanted to talk about a concept. And so, I just go back to keeping my aquarium. And that’s often enough for me. But, lately, I’ve been rethinking some things, and came back to the forum to read, learn, have conversations that spark my interest or challenge my perspective.

Thank you for this discussion! I think you can copy/paste this to a lot of topics. CO2 or not? Dry ferts, or an all in one store bought fert? Honestly? Who cares. There are successes and failures with every single aspect of a tank. If it’s working, and you like it, do it. If it’s not working, try something else, or troubleshoot the problem. But, if someone else does it differently, fine – no need to be a jerk. There is more than one way to peel an orange! 

I am learning so much from this forum though. It takes a while to read through some of the older, long threads - but it is worth it. I always find that one or two comments mixed in that are gamechangers in how I think about, or understand something. Sometimes the comments are not related to the thread at all - but about another aspect of the hobby.


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## ursamajor (Oct 6, 2015)

Greggz said:


> That's funny.
> 
> The Porsche vs. Corvette wars have been equally as brutal for decades.
> 
> ...


Great points. I have had to force myself to keep an open mind about methods that I think can't possibly work, and the only thing that makes it possible is LOTS of pictures. Right now there's this youtuber I'm following who makes no-filter, no-heater, no-ferts, no-water change tanks. When I first heard about him I thought "well that's obviously gonna fail." But the guy can grow plants. And his tanks (plural... he's got a shed full of them) are well-documented and look amazing. So I paid attention to his methods and learned from them, and I'm a better aquarist for it.

I think where we get into trouble is when somebody sees an aquarist like I just describes and starts saying "You don't need filters! Ferts and CO2 are a hoax! Don't ever do a water change!" It's way too easy to become dogmatic.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

ursamajor said:


> ...
> I think where we get into trouble is when somebody sees an aquarist like I just describes and starts saying "You don't need filters! Ferts and CO2 are a hoax! Don't ever do a water change!" It's way too easy to become dogmatic.


The big distinction here is that yes you can grow plants without those things, but it will always be a limited system. Limited in terms of what you can grow and how you can make the tank look aesthetically. When you add in those other things, it becomes a tank of unlimited possibilities.


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## ursamajor (Oct 6, 2015)

Asteroid said:


> The big distinction here is that yes you can grow plants without those things, but it will always be a limited system. Limited in terms of what you can grow and how you can make the tank look aesthetically. When you add in those other things, it becomes a tank of unlimited possibilities.


I agree, though my point was more that our discussions go downhill when people get overly attached to one method, or think that their method is "one-size-fits-all." For example, I have a no-tech bowl that I could stuff a filter and CO2 diffuser into, and I recognise that these items are usually "best practise" in a planted tank, but I don't need them to meet my goals for the bowl. On the other hand, although I have learned much from low-tech, soil-based tanks, I don't completely buy into the "my tank is an ecosystem that needs no input" dogma, so I do water changes and fertilize the bowl.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

ursamajor said:


> I agree, though my point was more that our discussions go downhill when people get overly attached to one method, or think that their method is "one-size-fits-all." For example, I have a no-tech bowl that I could stuff a filter and CO2 diffuser into, and I recognise that these items are usually "best practise" in a planted tank, but I don't need them to meet my goals for the bowl. On the other hand, although I have learned much from low-tech, soil-based tanks, I don't completely buy into the "my tank is an ecosystem that needs no input" dogma, so I do water changes and fertilize the bowl.


Yes, very true. Someone used the word context (I think OP did) and when things aren't put in their proper context the thread is destined for an untimely end. I feel like I'm also putting things in ( ) to explain what I mean.


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

I’m curious now if where you live or grew up influences your substrate choice. I grew up in the woods with a river as one property line. Maybe this makes me gravitate towards dirt.


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## ntdsc (Jul 24, 2019)

And I've lived in the woods and drank out of a creek and other than the pollution, it was delicious.


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

I'm not sure how to take your comment. Please clarify.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

ntdsc said:


> And I've lived in the woods and drank out of a creek and other than the pollution, it was delicious.


Are you going to continue to be a troll discussing drinking tank water, creek water in every thread.


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## ntdsc (Jul 24, 2019)

No, I'm discussing the ability of the tank to have the lowest bacteria content possible, whether that be with lights, substrate, etc.


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

Streetwise said:


> I’m curious now if where you live or grew up influences your substrate choice. I grew up in the woods with a river as one property line. Maybe this makes me gravitate towards dirt.





ntdsc said:


> And I've lived in the woods and drank out of a creek and other than the pollution, it was delicious.


Thanks for that.


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## ntdsc (Jul 24, 2019)

Oh, I'm always serious ha ha.


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

Desert Pupfish said:


> As a planted tank newbie myself, I'm glad to see this discussion. I had my own challenges starting with a soil tank that went through two months of every kind of algae imaginable--and even some experts here were telling me to give it up and start over. But thanks to lots of good advice and handholding, I made it through and can start to enjoy my tank now. But I can easily see newbies getting scared off by all the conflicting advice they get, and the daunting prospect of thinking they have to master CO2 & EI dosing, high PAR lighting, deciding on soil (and which kind) vs inert, etc. And of course all the technicolor fruit stand pics help create unrealistic expectations--we're not gonna all be supermodels after all.
> 
> The reason Diana Walstad's approach is so popular is that it is simultaneously obtainable and instructive in all the basics all beginners need to learn. And Dennis Wong's site is also a great resource that covers the gamut from low tech to high tech--and explains the difference & rationale for each. Other good resources are the Tropica website that has lots of great inspiration with their simple low tech tanks, George Farmer's aquascaping videos, and the AquaPro videos--esp the ones that explain some of the basic science. One of the best pieces of aquascaping advice I've seen on here is to look up the aquascaping contest winners from around the turn of the century before high tech took over the hobby. There are some beautiful low tanks there that are actually achievable by newbies w/o having to invest thousands in high tech toys, and countless hours learning how to dial in high CO2 & lighting, fert dosing regimens, etc.
> 
> If I understood the OP's intent correctly, when offering advice to newbies we need to meet them where they are--not where we think they should be, or where we are. As others have said--if we do it right, we get a new person hooked on the hobby. And the angel who gave them the right advice gets his wings......



I was working with substrate heated 29H and 40 long tanks back in 1991~95, with a really small amount of laterite/clay at the very bottom. I also had a small amount of 24/7 CO2 in both tanks. If anything I kept these tanks too warm, it could have easily been in the low 70's I but kept them at 77 and higher.


Soil: I still have doubts about recommending capped organic potting soil as a lot of this stuff comes with "rotted manures' and other high nitrogen ferts. My present 20 H fish tank is running a thin layer of coastal Oregon sand/clay subsoil found below the 'soil' level, capped with fine, brownish river gravel.


Part of this soil is stream clay so it's soil that's been in contact with running water for maybe hundreds of years. I suspect it's quite devoid of any rotting matter, which I don't think should be in a small tank.


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