# Ok what approach for Green water



## grungefreek (Oct 9, 2003)

Ok heres a pic.


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## Stu (Feb 16, 2004)

I've never had a serious green water problem, so I may not be giving the most effective advice, but here's what I'd do...

Firstly, I'd never touch an algaecide.
Secondly, I think a blackout is a bit drastic for green water.

You have 6 watts per gallon of light, so even a brief (but relatively large) drop in CO2 will cause problems. My tank is just recovering from an algae outbreak when my airline split and CO2 dropped to 15ppm (5W/gal).

I would do a 50% water change to "reset" the tank a little, then make sure your parameters are correct and you are dosing enough.... maintain at least 30ppm CO2, get your nitrate up to at least 10ppm, phosphate around 1ppm, potassium to at least 20ppm and make sure you are supplying micro nutrients.

Buy some daphnia (probably need a couple bags to make sure some survive hungry fish!) for a quick fix on the green water, then see how it goes for a week or two once levels are as suggested.

That's how I'd proceed, as I'd like to understand *what* exactly was causing the green water and prevent it in future rather than keep correcting the outbreaks.

HTH


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## grungefreek (Oct 9, 2003)

> Firstly, I'd never touch an algaecide.


Yeah i was gonna avoid them if i could, not a real fan of using them


> Secondly, I think a blackout is a bit drastic for green water.


Yeah i would only need a short blackout, cause the algae isnt real thick.


> I would do a 50% water change to "reset" the tank a little


Yeah ill do a 50% WC tomorrow to reset everything, and redose ferts.


> get your nitrate up to at least 10ppm, phosphate around 1ppm, potassium to at least 20ppm and make sure you are supplying micro nutrients.


i thought with littler tanks, nitrates etc are usually kept a half that of bigger tanks, hence nitrates is kept at 5ppm, not 10ppm. I got that advice off chucks planted tank site, his fert calculator actually.


> Buy some daphnia


never seen daphnia for sale over here, so i doubt i will find it anywhere, but ill look round. All my plants are fast growing species; H.polysperma regular and sunset; wysteria, ambulia and then glosso. so they suck nutrients up pretty well.


> as I'd like to understand what exactly was causing the green water


Im the same, but im nearly 100% sure it was low Co2 that caused it, that was the only thing that was off.

Thanx for the replys, more advice appreciated


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## Stu (Feb 16, 2004)

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see any reason to reduce nitrate (or any other) levels just because of a smaller tank. Firstly; you still have a very high light input and also, ppm (mg/l) is independant of tank size, it is a measure per unit (parts *per million*, miligrams *per litre*).... i.e 400mg of nitrate in 40 litres, and 2000mg of nitrate in 200 litres, is still 10ppm in both.

You really can't get daphnia? Not even a small amount from a lfs as live food?

I appreciate that you know it was the CO2, I was simply saying that with the right fert regime kept up to date, you should see it naturally go and stay gone.


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## grungefreek (Oct 9, 2003)

ok, i went back and looked at Chucks dosage calculator. I thought it said to have lower nitrates in the smaller tank, and more in the larger. But looking at it again, it actually just has 5ppm nitrates for all tanks. I will definately increase my nitrates to 10ppm and also my phosphate to 1ppm. I thought it a little strange to have less nitrates in a small tank, but i just went along with it anyways, it just meant i dosed nitrate 2-3x per week to keep a 5ppm level. ill up the dose

I dont know that we cant get it, but ive never seen it for sale anywhere. maybe ill have to ask at a lfs to see if they have them.



> I appreciate that you know it was the CO2, I was simply saying that with the right fert regime kept up to date, you should see it naturally go and stay gone.


Yeah thats cool, i wasnt dissing u or anything, sorry if it sounded that way. Hopefully it does go for good, its not very attractive


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## Stu (Feb 16, 2004)

Ok, no worries. In my humble opinion, I think Chuck's calculator really should say suggested Nitrate at 10ppm. 5 is really the bottom of the scale and as soon as plants in a planted tank start to use it, it will drop below this.

Unfortunately, with higher light levels, if something goes wrong (like CO2 interrupted), you have less time to react before an outbreak occurs... balance becomes ever more critical. If I get a CO2 problem in future, I think I will reduce the lights as soon as possible to let the system recover!

Your water is only a little bit green, think yourself lucky it doesn't look like this!


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## grungefreek (Oct 9, 2003)

> Your water is only a little bit green, think yourself lucky it doesn't look like this!


I think myself very lucky my water hasnt gone that green....yet (touch wood it doesnt)


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

Enough nutrients, enough light, and you'll go as green as anyone.

Conventional wisdom is that green water is initiated by an ammonia spike. That could happen in a new tank due to incomplete cycle, or it could come from an exotic substrate amendment like a fert stick with urea, or a massive snail dieoff, etc. It's a lot harder to get rid of than to get, since after it starts it can feed off the ferts you're putting in, and doesn't need ammonia to continue on.

There's a member here who induces it regularly _on purpose_.  

I think I'd go for the blackout, since the other preferred methods aren't available to you right now. Clean the filter, do 50% wc, completely cover the tank so that no light gets in, leave in darkness 4 days. Uncover, clean filter again, do another 50% wc and only put back half the light you had to begin with. With a 15g you might find a dark garbage bag big enough to slip over the entire tank.

How long ago was this tank initially set up?


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## grungefreek (Oct 9, 2003)

Tank has been resetup for about 3-4 weeks now. I pulled it down and moved it to my new place, so everything is from an established tank. I have found that in the mornings, the green water is its worst, then just before lights out, the green water has just about cleared up. So has anyone tried extended light hours as a remedy?


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

grungefreek said:


> I have found that in the mornings, the green water is its worst, then just before lights out, the green water has just about cleared up.


Interesting. Most people have the opposite greenwater cycle.


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## grungefreek (Oct 9, 2003)

Hmm interesting. I think i have read others that have had the same experience. It kinda makes sense as well, cause at the end of the light period, i would think the plants are shifting the balance of nutrient uptake towards themselves over that of the algae. Which is how beating algae works, shifting nutrient uptake towards the plants. At night however, algae can utilise very low light levels etc and still reproduce, whereas plants cant utilise the low light as efficiently. This is why i thought blackouts worked, i thought the algae would deplete all the nutrients in the darkness and then die, cause there is no nutrients left, but the plants dont die as they are more hardy and are better equipped to handle such lengths of darkness.

So i dont know if extended light periods would work, nutrient levels would have to be maintained at all times for it to have a chance of working.


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## Kris (Feb 27, 2004)

i have had similar experience--gw worse in the am than pm. 
i am really tired of having it.
let me know if you try the extended light, and how it goes!
kris


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## andyg (Oct 9, 2004)

grungefreek said:


> Tank has been resetup for about 3-4 weeks now. I pulled it down and moved it to my new place, so everything is from an established tank. I have found that in the mornings, the green water is its worst, then just before lights out, the green water has just about cleared up. So has anyone tried extended light hours as a remedy?


Mine went through the same cycle, real opaque green in am mostly cleared at lights out. 
Extending the lighting period does not really work. I tried full light(130W) during the day and half light(65W) at night,over a 48hrs period. The water did stay at the clearer end of the cycle without the opaque green in the am.
The plants sucked up the nutrients ( first and only time my NO3 went to 0 )
As soon as I added nutrients back ( half the regular dose ) instant green soup. CO2 levels were according to the chart @ 50ppm+.

I've got it mostly cleared now by using RO and reducing my fertilizing to twice/week. ( tried tap water only a week ago and got soup again, so I'll stick to RO.)


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## pineapple (Jan 22, 2004)

Just a few notes to add:

- try aerating the water overnight. Put in an airstone and let it bubble through the night after lights out. It helps to improve the water quality.

- the filter tends to act as a repository of green water. One approach to treat the problem is to use a syphon hose to remove water from the aquarium and another to refill the aquarium at the same time. Replace all water in the tank. If you want to play it safe with one or other fish, remove them before hand. "Clean" tap water will contain chloramine, in some cases, and that will help to eliminate the greeen water. Of course, make sure the inflow reate does not exceed the outflow rate... This is an effective cheap method. Keep the filter running while doing this so as to remove the repository of green water entirely.

- I think you will find your phosphate level is severely depleted by green water - at least it was in the cases I have had. It's hard to know what to do - starve it of nutrients at first and then get nutrients back into the system for the plants - but at what stage in the game. The game goes from defensive play to offensive and it is a matter of timing. Clearing the system of green water using a System 1 diatomaceous earth filter helps - but using the previously noted method works to bring the tank back to day one. At day one you can increase the phosphate a little and add nitrates back.

Hope this might help somewhat.

Andrew Cribb


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## grungefreek (Oct 9, 2003)

Hey,
Well ive decided to go for a 4 day blackout as a bit of a trial and error thing. It will either work or it will make it worse, we will see. IF the blackout doesnt work, then i might try the 100% WC, but i dont really have any containers big enough to hold all the water needed, so buying tubs might be nearly as expensive as a uv sterilizer, which by the way i have found some cheap ones. I can get a HOB UV sterilizer for under $50, which is pretty cheap, so i might end up doing that, and that way if it decides to return (which i hope it wont) then i can get rid of it quick smart.

Thanx for the replies

Grunge


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

When doing the blackout, the wc's before and after can be larger than 50%, the bigger the better. Whatever you can manage.


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## grungefreek (Oct 9, 2003)

What about CO2, leave it on, turn it off?? And ferts, keep them at good levels or try deplete them as much as possiible??


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## Anthony (Jan 11, 2005)

I did the 3 day blackout thing at the first sign of green water and it worked for me. It never looked like anything I've seen on this site. I left the co2 on the entire time. I haven't had it return since. Afterwards I added a micron filter pad and my water has been crystal clear since.


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## aquaphish (Dec 20, 2002)

I've been battling GW for too long now and need solutions!!!

It gives me some relief that I am not the only one with this problem. 

But it seems that most with this problem have a new tank and with that GW is most prevelent. My tank has been setup for several years and one day my water started to show signs of the start of GW. 

The water started to become somewhat opaque, so I did a 25% water change like usual using RO water. I added my ferts like usual and the next day I had 40 gals of pea soup!!!

Having an established tank I was not sure what went wrong. Checked and rechecked parameters and all were ok. So I thought :icon_redf !!! KN03 was ok one day and 0ppm in a few days. OK!! I thought I was having the reciently planted Hydrophilia Diformis was sucking up the stuff. Add more. Humm no KN03 to measure the next day :icon_conf ???!!?

I decided to get a new test kit and OH NNNOOOO!!! KNO3 way off the board
!!! Color indicator was as red as a ripe cherry!!!

Made several water changes and finally got the water clear again and the KNO3 down to 5 ppms. So I started to add my ferts again and .........Must I explain what I had the next day :icon_redf :icon_redf  !!???

After several rounds like this I now feel that the ferts I am using might be causing this since I am using new ferts. I used to use exclusively Kent Products for ferts. Now I am using Greg Watson's ferts. I realized that when I changed over is when I started to have problems.

Now if all have had patience in reading all of this I would like to find out what ferts people are using and having GW troubles. I'm seriously thinking of going back to the Kent Products, even though it is more costly. It is sure alot easier to use!!!

Maybe "G"reg "W"atson is just a fictitous name and the initials really stand for "G"reen "W"ater!!! LOL!!! Maybe I just need to learn how to use this stuff. But I have followed all instructions I can find to the "T". And no nice green plants I can see just GREEN WATER!!!


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## grungefreek (Oct 9, 2003)

> Now I am using Greg Watson's ferts. I realized that when I changed over is when I started to have problems.


Are u mixing the chemicals properly? maybe u should post how u are making them up i.e concentrations as well as dosage for others to look at to check u are doing everything correctly.



> My tank has been setup for several years and one day my water started to show signs of the start of GW.


Was it maybe after cleaning a filter? According to Tom Barr, GW is caused by NH4, which could be caused by a breakdown in your filtration, or low Co2 which could possibly have been what happened in my case. I think from his own experiments, excess of other nutrients dont lead to GW, only NH4 spikes. I havent seen an actual report written on the subject, so dont know how true this holds.

Grunge


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## aquaphish (Dec 20, 2002)

grungefreek,

I've been maintaining aquariums for more years than some can count their birthdays!!! My GW is not caused by completely wiping out my biological filtration. Like I also said I have been mixing exactly as mentioned using what is posted on calulators and PMDD reciepes.

I thought that it was low CO2 but I increased it and still green water.

It seems that I get GW with in 24 hours of adding the CSM. I did a little experiment, did not add for one week and no green water. Then I started to add and then the next day....... must I describe??? GREEN PEA SOUP!!! Here is a picture of what my tank looked like before using CSM 
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=678


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## aquaphish (Dec 20, 2002)

OK it's been several days since I posted. Had some time too cool down from this mess of green. Here is a picture of what I have been dealing with.

The problem I do have is getting an accurate measurement for FE NO3 PO4 KH GH PH due to the discolored water. The green water actually disruptes the true color of my test water. But this is what I have:

FE--- less than .5ppm
Ph---6.8
KH---6°
GH---6°
NO3--5ppm
PO4 .5ppm
CO2--figure it out by calculating the Ph-Kh ratio.

I have 2 5500K flourecents and 2 6500K flourecents on for 12hr. photo period.
(2.5wpg). Wanting to increase it but not until I get this problem fixed first.

I will not post the mixtures of the CSM+B, KNO3 and other things I add they are mixed correctly. But I will indicate the amount of CSM+B I add, .7mls. only once and my water will go from clear to what you see in 3-5 days. If I add more the pea soup just gets thicker. This is why my FE is stated as above. I have tried maintain a 1.0ppm FE level but the soup gets so thick .

Just wondering if CSM +B is not made for lower light levels as I have. Once again all this mess started when I switched from using only Kent Freshwater Products to Greg Watsons CSM+B. I have used the same KNO3 and K2SO4 with the Kent products so I am sure this is not the problem. And I just started to add PO4 since this mess has started.


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## Kris (Feb 27, 2004)

that looks like my tank!
is this a seasonal thing? there seem to be many of us recently who are battling this. 
all i can say is grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


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## aquaphish (Dec 20, 2002)

Well it just might look like it is a seasonal thing. But my problem started when I switched brands of Ferts. I have not had any GW in the 3 years+ I have been setup until I made the switch.


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## Stu (Feb 16, 2004)

How much, and how often do you feed your fish?


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

aquaphish, .5-1.0 ppm FE? that's way high. Old PMDD targets 0.1ppm FE. We are now probably doing a bit higher typically, but not THAT high. Something is fishy about your CSM mix. 0.7ml is NOTHING with "normal" CSM mix of 1 tablespoon in 500ml.


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## aquaphish (Dec 20, 2002)

OOPPSS!!! I did mean .1ppms. :icon_redf :icon_redf 

My mixture is 167mls RO water and 1 teaspoon of CSM+B.

When I try to adjust my FE to .1 I would add .7mils daily but I always get green water the very next day. Then when I add up to the .1ppm level I can not see the mid point of the tank of a 40 gal tank. 

This is where I get the .7mil amount from. This is from the Krib:

The amount or "size" in ml (milli-liters) of your daily PMDD dose should eventually be governed by monitoring Fe (iron) levels that accumulate and equilibrate in your aquarium over a period of time (more on this later). But, to get started, for each ten gallons, try around 1/12 ml of PMDD a day (roughly 2 drops). A 29 gallon tank would then get 1/4 ml a day (roughly 6 drops). If you don't do many partial water changes, dose less. If you have a "high tech", densely planted, CO2 injected, VHO lit tank, you might want to double the dose to 1/6 ml of PMDD per 10 gallons a day (roughly 4 drops).


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## Stu (Feb 16, 2004)

This is what I would try....

1) Perform a large water change to cut down the amount of algae in the water as a starting point.
2) Raise you Nitrate levels, and keep them sustained at 10-20ppm - be aware that the suspended algae might suck up more nitrates than usual.
3) Add Potassium with the nitrate to maintain levels.
4) Do not feed your fish as often.... even as little as once a week at first (depending on fish species really).

The reason being, that green water is believed to occur in a system where Nitrogen and/or Potassium are limiting factors, and so other nutrients are in excess.
By raising nitrate and potassium, you give the plants all that they need to outcompete the algae and phosphate will become the limiting (macro) factor in the tank.
I think this would be worth a try as you mentioned an iffy NO3 test kit, and so your outbreak could have been caused by a very low (if not 0) level of nitrate, opening the door to the algae.


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## aquaphish (Dec 20, 2002)

Stu, 

I have made several large water changes. Like I previously mentioned, I would only have GW when I start to dose CSM+B.

As for the Nitrates If the algae would consume NO3 why would you want to increase it and give the algae something to feed on. But I do maintain NO3 levels at 5-10 ppm's.

Potassium is being added by the addition of K2S04 and KNO3.

This stuff is just stumping me. What I will try it to, no matter if I do get "Rich Pea Soup", maintain Fe at .1ppm using CSM+B; Ph @ 6.8; [email protected] 5° as well as KNO3 @ 10 ppm ,an increase from 5ppm. PO4 1.0ppm (which will be 10:1 N/P level). And as for Potassium I have a mixture of 2T in 200mls. and dose 20mls. after water changes. And CO2 is added via DIY system to maintain the pH.

BTW the above dosing is what I have been using for several years with the exception of CSM+B. I used to use Kent Freshwater Supplement which is used to dose Fe. And I would not have any problems with GW.

Fish are fed very sparingly maybe 3X's a week.


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## Stu (Feb 16, 2004)

hmmmmmm <scratches head>
















It sounds like you have the perfect dosing schedule pretty much already.

Do you manage to maintain *constant* crystal clear water without the CSM? If so, perhaps the easiest answer is to simply stop using it until you can figure this out, and go back to something like the Kent range!

It's puzzling though how just the CSM could be the cause. Have you tested your iron test kit to make sure it is reading correctly?

Regarding the nitrates.... If Potassium was a limiting factor (which you have proved now it isn't), the plants would not be able to outcompete the algae in photosynthesis, and as such the algae can utilise the nitrate as a nutrient source, effectively zeroing out your level. That is why I mentioned it.


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## aquaphish (Dec 20, 2002)

Yea this is a real stumper!!  

I just finished doing a 15 gal WC. BTW the water was so green I could not see the midpoint of the tank. Just don't want to spend all night long making a water change until the water is clear again.

I reset the ferts after change with 1.0 ml of CSM+B. Nitrates tested at 5.0ppm so I added 5mils for a target of 10ppm . PO4 was less than .5ppm so I added 10mils. (OH no don't really remember if I should add 10 mils to make 1ppm or 1mil for 1ppm :icon_redf wanted a target point of 1.5ppm) Also added 20mils of K2SO4.


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## Stu (Feb 16, 2004)

If your solution relates to 1ml to 1ppm, you could be in trouble with 10.5ppm Phosphate!








Perhaps test (again) for phosphates to see what level you have achieved in the tank.

Just a thought, have you tested for ammonia and nitrites?
Also, when did you last clean your filter?


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## aquaphish (Dec 20, 2002)

Stu said:


> If your solution relates to 1ml to 1ppm, you could be in trouble with 10.5ppm Phosphate!


I did say 1.5ppm Phosphate and not 10.5ppms. I will be testing everything later and post results and possibly a pic of what the tank looks like. I just might look up my Journal in the Photo section, which I have not used for a while and repost there. 

This way my Journal will be of "the Good Bad and The Ugly" and not just the successes like most post.


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