# Anyone tired scale model trees with iwagumi?



## ThatGuyWithTheFish (Apr 29, 2012)

Isn't that completely antithetical to the dogma of iwagumi--"rock garden"?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Isn't that completely antithetical to the dogma of iwagumi--"rock garden"?


That's why I said it would apply more to mountain scapes, but people tend to call them iwagumi. It could be used for anything really, just wondering if anyone has done so or seen it. I may try it myself.


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## GMYukonon24s (May 3, 2009)

I've never tried your idea. But I think its a pretty cool idea.


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## CatB (Jan 29, 2012)

i'd just be worried about them being tank-safe, they might have some nasty paint or finish on them


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

CatB said:


> i'd just be worried about them being tank-safe, they might have some nasty paint or finish on them


I was thinking about trying them in one of my tanks without livestock. I have 1 setup, one I will setup when I get home. However, they won't look good in these tanks, or fit into the scape (or lack of one I should say), but I can try to test the water the best I can, as well as see how much maintenance they are. They are like $17 for 4 where I saw them, probably cheaper online.


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## CatB (Jan 29, 2012)

talontsiawd said:


> I was thinking about trying them in one of my tanks without livestock. I have 1 setup, one I will setup when I get home. However, they won't look good in these tanks, or fit into the scape (or lack of one I should say), but I can try to test the water the best I can, as well as see how much maintenance they are. They are like $17 for 4 where I saw them, probably cheaper online.


i dunno what you would be able to test with for things that aren't copper or ammonia/nitrite/nitrate... or lead, i guess. i was thinking more like some chemical in the paint


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

CatB said:


> i dunno what you would be able to test with for things that aren't copper or ammonia/nitrite/nitrate... or lead, i guess. i was thinking more like some chemical in the paint


I doubt I can really test by anything except for culled shrimp. Most paint doesn't leach anything after it is cured, to my knowledge. With most paints, the bad stuff like solvents are gone after it dries. It's bad if you ingest it or something but not if you just touch it.

I am not that concerned about being fish safe though I don't plan to try it in a well stocked tank either, to start.


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## blink (Feb 22, 2012)

They also have them as "winter trees" with no foliage. Most of the ones I've seen are unpainted, just grey or brown polystyrene plastic.


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## CatB (Jan 29, 2012)

talontsiawd said:


> I doubt I can really test by anything except for culled shrimp. Most paint doesn't leach anything after it is cured, to my knowledge. With most paints, the bad stuff like solvents are gone after it dries. It's bad if you ingest it or something but not if you just touch it.
> 
> I am not that concerned about being fish safe though I don't plan to try it in a well stocked tank either, to start.


would it dissolve in water though?


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## WoodRiverTroutBum (Jun 15, 2012)

Should fit right in next to the blue and silver castle and the bubbling treasure chest LOL.


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## asmith (Mar 29, 2012)

there is a product called "tree armatures" that is the plastic molded tree without foliage that may be more suitable. no paint on them but I'm not sure what type of plastic they are molded from.


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## youjettisonme (Dec 24, 2010)

Not that I don't think it's possible that it could look ok, but it goes completely against the idea of NA (nature aquarium) as it's pure gimmick and no longer captures the essence of nature, but instead, turns it into a scale model. I remember that lot of people were awed by the use of cotton to represent streams and waterfalls over the last several years, but that idea has since been relegated to the scrap heap for most scapers. 

If you are really doing this purely for your own enjoyment then of course, no worries, but otherwise it will just end up rubbing most people the wrong way because where does it stop? Do you put a toy car or train in next? After all, sometimes you find rusted out cars and airplanes in the ocean. 

I actually do believe that it's possible to make more realistic looking trees from only organic elements, but most people don't take the time or care to really investigate and fully vet that process.


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## youjettisonme (Dec 24, 2010)

asmith said:


> there is a product called "tree armatures" that is the plastic molded tree without foliage that may be more suitable. no paint on them but I'm not sure what type of plastic they are molded from.


That's it right there. If the primary element in your tank, the focal point that really draws your eye, is made out of plastic, then what kind of "nature aquarium" have you created? I think you may make a fine looking fish tank, for sure, but not what most now consider an aquascape which should be highlighting the beauty of living, organic materials.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

youjettisonme said:


> Not that I don't think it's possible that it could look ok, but it goes completely against the idea of NA (nature aquarium) as it's pure gimmick and no longer captures the essence of nature, but instead, turns it into a scale model. I remember that lot of people were awed by the use of cotton to represent streams and waterfalls over the last several years, but that idea has since been relegated to the scrap heap for most scapers.
> 
> If you are really doing this purely for your own enjoyment then of course, no worries, but otherwise it will just end up rubbing most people the wrong way because where does it stop? Do you put a toy car or train in next? After all, sometimes you find rusted out cars and airplanes in the ocean.
> 
> I actually do believe that it's possible to make more realistic looking trees from only organic elements, but most people don't take the time or care to really investigate and fully vet that process.


My idea for this was I have yet to see any 1-2 inch trees in aquariums, using natural materials, that look right. Most twigs that small don't have a good ratio of the main "trunk" to "branch" size, they will be about the same or the "branches" may be slightly smaller. You will likely not find something with this many "branches" naturally, unless you grow it from scratch and train it like a bonsai. 

I am not saying looks good, or will look good for that matter. I am simply asking the question if anyone has tried it. If I do try it, I would use moss for foliage. 

I can also understand why people wouldn't want to add plastic to a natural scape. It isn't something I would normally thing about myself. These did just look really good for what they are. 

I don't think it's some slippery slope though. They are trees, although fake. It wouldn't make me feel that I should put a model car in, though I would put one in if that is what I wanted to achieve. I have thought about doing a scape with a rusted out 32 ford and some DHG. That wouldn't be a nature scape though and wouldn't appeal to that crowd either.


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

> Not that I don't think it's possible that it could look ok, but it goes completely against the idea of NA (nature aquarium) as it's pure gimmick and no longer captures the essence of nature, but instead, turns it into a scale model. I remember that lot of people were awed by the use of cotton to represent streams and waterfalls over the last several years, but that idea has since been relegated to the scrap heap for most scapers.


And Moss trees are natural? The first guy who ever did a moss tree and started the whole fad made his tree by cutting several pieces of wood to the shape he wanted and glued them together to make his tree, and then attached the moss. Nothing natural about any of that. The use of cotton was done in award winning aquascapes in the Amano aquascaping contest as well as other contests. A nature aquarium has never been natural. The meaning of a nature aquarium is to create a scene that *looks natural*. Who is to say the materials themselves must be natural?

Iwagumi by Amano's definition is in the placement of a *group* of rocks. A "tree" could not be a part of Iwagumi, no more than using only one rock instead of a group.


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## jeremyTR (Mar 21, 2012)

youjettisonme said:


> Not that I don't think it's possible that it could look ok, but it goes completely against the idea of NA (nature aquarium) as it's pure gimmick and no longer captures the essence of nature, but instead, turns it into a scale model. I remember that lot of people were awed by the use of cotton to represent streams and waterfalls over the last several years, but that idea has since been relegated to the scrap heap for most scapers.
> 
> If you are really doing this purely for your own enjoyment then of course, no worries, but otherwise it will just end up rubbing most people the wrong way because where does it stop? Do you put a toy car or train in next? After all, sometimes you find rusted out cars and airplanes in the ocean.
> 
> I actually do believe that it's possible to make more realistic looking trees from only organic elements, but most people don't take the time or care to really investigate and fully vet that process.


Aquascaping

SERIOUS BUSINESS.

Sent from my HTC Evo 4G


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## youjettisonme (Dec 24, 2010)

Robert H said:


> And Moss trees are natural? The first guy who ever did a moss tree and started the whole fad made his tree by cutting several pieces of wood to the shape he wanted and glued them together to make his tree, and then attached the moss. Nothing natural about any of that. The use of cotton was done in award winning aquascapes in the Amano aquascaping contest as well as other contests. A nature aquarium has never been natural. The meaning of a nature aquarium is to create a scene that *looks natural*. Who is to say the materials themselves must be natural?
> 
> Iwagumi by Amano's definition is in the placement of a *group* of rocks. A "tree" could not be a part of Iwagumi, no more than using only one rock instead of a group.


"Natural". Wood vs. platic. Can you not see the difference? And if there is nothing wrong with adding plastic figurines to your scape, why not also add plastic fish? As for the cotton, have you not been reading about all the press that this particular unnatural element has been receiving over the last several years? If you had read that IAPLC guidelines this year, you'd notice that you will be given point deductions should you decide to add inorganic elements to your scape. In fact, you will even get point deductions should you add terrestrial plants just for the sake of the photography. 

The reason "moss trees" are more natural than a manufactured plastic tree is because at least they are composed of organic elements. That said, trees have been done to death to the point that few will score well in competition anymore. Again, nothing wrong with decorating your aquarium with any element you'd like, but if you want to make a nature scape then the majority of judges these days will frown on you should you decide to introduce plastic in a way where you are actually highlighting that plastic and not simply using it as a substrate divider for example. 

So yeah, the meaning of a nature scape is not to create a scape that simply "looks natural". If that were true, you could create an entire scape out of nothing but plastic including plastic rocks, plastic wood, and plastic plants. That's your "nature scape"? No thanks.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

First, cotton is natural. Secondly, for my question, I never said natural aquarium. I simply asked if anyone has done it.  I also wondered how it looks. If it looks good to me, I don't care if it's natural, otherwise I would have not asked the question, obviously.


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## youjettisonme (Dec 24, 2010)

talontsiawd said:


> First, cotton is natural. Secondly, for my question, I never said natural aquarium. I simply asked if anyone has done it. I also wondered how it looks. If it looks good to me, I don't care if it's natural, otherwise I would have not asked the question, obviously.


- I was responding to someone else. 
- I don't think there's anything wrong with you putting anything at all in your aquarium. I merely mentioned that as a "nature style aquascape", it's going to get frowns.
- Cotton got some high marks in competition the last couple years. You should use it if you like it. However, it rubbed a lot of people the wrong way and came off like a prop. I am one of those people, but in the end my potential opinion about your potential scape doesn't matter a bit. 

That said, no one comes across "the beauty of cotton" when they are walking through a jungle or forest. They do see rocks, wood, plants, and dirt however. 

The rules are never steadfast. Do what makes you happy. If you tried to enter something like that in the IAPLC this year? You wouldn't be likely to do very well, and at the least you would get point deductions automatically. That's not everyone's aim though. First and foremost, just make yourself happy.


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## CatB (Jan 29, 2012)

i'm not sure how this turned into an argument about whether it would be appropriate in a nature aquarium when the OP never said anything about a nature aquarium? jussayin... 

PERSONALLY, i think it's a cool idea, and provided it wouldn't be toxic to anything, you should go for it . an aquarium hasn't got to be a "nature aquarium" or an "iwagumi" or a "dutch style tank" or anything branded so long as it looks good to the person who owns it... 
worst that would happen would be it looks awful and you have to tear it down lol


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## Kai808 (Jul 19, 2011)

+1 

I have never seen anyone use those trees... It's your tank, have fun with it. As long as you're happy with the results. I have a couple of ideas that involve other things going into my tank as well. But I really want to see someone do an actual working, underwater train. Have fun!


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## 8foot6inchRod (Sep 18, 2011)

Not to throw more fuel on the fire, but have you guys seen the newest evolution from cotton streams and waterfalls? How about the floating Hallelujah Mountains of Pandora complete with underwater sandfalls?

Pretty impressive tank if you ask me. Gimmicky, but cool. One of the videos to the side of that page shows how to get that effect.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

8foot6inchRod said:


> Not to throw more fuel on the fire, but have you guys seen the newest evolution from cotton streams and waterfalls? How about the floating Hallelujah Mountains of Pandora complete with underwater sandfalls?
> 
> Pretty impressive tank if you ask me. Gimmicky, but cool. One of the videos to the side of that page shows how to get that effect.


That is super awesome. All parts of it have been done but not together and it just looks so cool.


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

That was really nice, I don't really care for some of the tanks I'm seeing now with props or things you wouldn't see in nature. With that said I've never seen a sand water fall but that was a nice illusion and well executed as the sand was coarse and heavy enough to fall without clouding the tank, plus the tank was small for that kind of detail so I give it high marks, like my opinion counts but it was unique.


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## youjettisonme (Dec 24, 2010)

That sand waterfall is obscenely cool. Anyone want to guess how it's accomplished?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

youjettisonme said:


> That sand waterfall is obscenely cool. Anyone want to guess how it's accomplished?


It basically uses an air pump. It has a tube where the bubbles move up, carrying up the sand. The bubbles come out the top but the sand comes out a different passage below the top. It falls into a container that then puts it right at the bottom where it needs to be. 

I know that is probably not a good explaintion but their was a tank that placed 07th in the 2007 ADA contest that people share a lot of info. Their is a lot of stuff on that tank on the net. Here is the tank and some stuff- http://www.aquatic-eden.com/2007/10/creating-waterfall-illusion-underwater.html


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## orandali (Jun 21, 2012)

That avatar tank blew my mind. And I don't see a problem with using those little trees as an initial start up so you can get and idea of what you want and just progress from there. I thought it was a clever trick to use those in case your not the best at making mini trees.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

If anyone has made 3/4-1 in tall trees out of real wood, I would love to see that as well. I would prefer to use real wood (I have yet to decide if I want to do this at all to be honest), but I just have never seen it done. I have not found twigs that have a good size difference between the "trunk" and "branches", nor good spacing. That's the reason I brought up these guys but I would prefer wood.


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## Jules (May 20, 2012)

youjettisonme said:


> If you are really doing this purely for your own enjoyment then of course, no worries, but otherwise it will just end up rubbing most people the wrong way because where does it stop? Do you put a toy car or train in next?


This is actually a great idea.

If I ever do a mountainscape tank I'm laying down some z scale track near the top and putting a crashed locomotive partway down the mountain side (tastefully obscured by HC underbrush) roud:


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## Jules (May 20, 2012)

talontsiawd said:


> If anyone has made 3/4-1 in tall trees out of real wood, I would love to see that as well. I would prefer to use real wood (I have yet to decide if I want to do this at all to be honest), but I just have never seen it done. I have not found twigs that have a good size difference between the "trunk" and "branches", nor good spacing. That's the reason I brought up these guys but I would prefer wood.


Wood would be pretty difficult since thin pieces tend to get floppy when water logged.

I think a wire armature done out of stainless steel would be the way to go - I'd use multiple strands of thin, loosely braided wire for the branches so that you could tuck moss into the wires with tweezers.


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

8foot6inchRod said:


> Not to throw more fuel on the fire, but have you guys seen the newest evolution from cotton streams and waterfalls? How about the floating Hallelujah Mountains of Pandora complete with underwater sandfalls?
> 
> Pretty impressive tank if you ask me. Gimmicky, but cool. One of the videos to the side of that page shows how to get that effect.


wow, what I wanna know is how they do the islands in this one because they are submerged and not just floating on the surface. 

I have seen the sand water falls before


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## jamntoast (Apr 16, 2012)

i was wondering about what might be on/in the trees as well (chemicals and what not) and also who wants plastic in their tank but i liked the idea so i did a quick search of tree armatures online and i found this site that has real wood tree armatures, i'd def prefer something more natural. i don't know if it's painted or anything. the site doesn't really show a good up close view of em, but they are real wood and you can get them in more size options. thought i'd share, it might be useful.

http://timberlinescenery.com/product.php?productid=95&cat=16&page=1


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## TexasCichlid (Jul 12, 2011)

I can't imagine fake trees would look good in a planted tank under any circumstance. Having a beautiful, lush green planted tank with a nice aquascape and interesting fish, and BAM, a bunch of fakey plastic trees. Distracting and counter to the purpose of a planted tank, in my opinion.

I would spend the time trying to make actual living "trees" as opposed to figuring how to integrate fakey plastic red oaks.


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