# Ready to give up. Any insight?



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

Hey guys I'm about ready to give up on having a successful low tech tank. I see the low tech lush forum on here and I'm just out of words. What am I doing wrong? 

This has been the best forum for my tank and I want to be successful, but I'm about ready to ditch all the fancy lights, ferts, all that and just have maybe a sword and driftwood and be done. 

So my tank is a 125 discus. It has cories, tetras, nerites, and 2 BN plecos. 

Plants are jungle Val, wisteria, cabomba, water sprite, Anubius, red wendtii crypts, and Amazon swords. 

I have nothing but an algae farm it seems with brown algae everywhere and turning the leaves and roots black. Seems I'm getting a hair algae outbreak also and it just looks horrible. 

For ferts I've been dosing gla ei method with their macros/plantex dry ferts. Also use seachem root tabs. 

For c02 I've been using excel and now metricide 14 daily. 

Lights are a 72" beamswork led 6500k, and a 48" Finnex Planted Plus. 

They were on a timer for 10 hours per day, but I switched yesterday to 2 4 hour split photo periods, 6-10 am and pm. 

Water changes are every other 2 to 3 days depending on work. 

I'm not seeing much growth and it's just becoming a not fun chore. Can anyone give me any real tips and ideas to fix the issues? I would love to do pressurized c02, but it's not an option right now. Thank you!


----------



## patfat (Oct 23, 2015)

Aparker2005 said:


> Hey guys I'm about ready to give up on having a successful low tech tank. I see the low tech lush forum on here and I'm just out of words. What am I doing wrong?
> 
> This has been the best forum for my tank and I want to be successful, but I'm about ready to ditch all the fancy lights, ferts, all that and just have maybe a sword and driftwood and be done.
> 
> ...


 
Low tech is supposed to be easy and fun. It seems like your doing so much more then what a low tech should be..got to remember plants grow slow and every thing takes time. all those beautiful tanks take awhile before they get to where they are. honestly if your having algae problems. you could be having countless of things going up and down.. such as to much light, to much ferts, water is up and down..not enough plants in the tank to soak up all the excess that is floating around. honestly and I don't want to sound like a jerk but do some more research in the forums see what others are doing in their journals. got to remember no 2 tanks are alike. so every one has different things they need to do to make their tank the way it is. plus when you switch up things you need to go slow.. so changing your light period you will see it take an effect over 2 or more weeks. same as adjusting ferts or what ever. its a labor of love and its not an easy one.. but you got to remember low tech is really just low tech.. 

I know it isn't much help but its more of hey keep trying don't fail learn whats good and bad and research..


----------



## shhh (Jan 1, 2016)

I agree with patfat that you're probably doing too much and expecting positive results too quickly. I don't have time to dose anything regularly on my tanks and my plants grow super slowly, but eventually they fill out and look nice (plus less maintenance for me ). The only thing I'll occasionally add is an osmocote ice cube root tab.


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

I think I'll cut back to once or twice per week on the ferts and keep the metricide up daily. Reducing the light also may help, so we'll see. Thanks guys!


----------



## thedood (May 30, 2015)

I think dosing ei method in a low tech tank is your problem. More nutrients than the plants can take up = algae farm. I have two low tech tanks and have decent growth and few problems and I only use root tabs. I think I would cut out the ei dosing. Keep using the metricide. There is a par graph here that may contain your lights on it but I am guessing, guessing mind you, that you can eliminate the 48" light and if you want keep an 8 hour schedule split into two four hour segments for the beamworks. Once you get things under control add the 48" light back into the mix and see how it goes. I think if you do these things your algae issues go away. Also you said you have black algae on the leaves, I would double the dose of metricide and see if it starts turning red, if it does then it is dying off.


----------



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Good advice being given here. 
Don't despair- go at it slow & easy, and keeps things as simple as you can. As has been suggested, cut out all the other nutrients for a while and just go with the root tabs & metricide, along with temporary light time reduction, even down to 6 hrs./day, and see what develops. Be patient - give things 3-4 weeks to settle in, but meantime get rid of as much of the existing algae as you can, by whatever means works.


----------



## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

I'm no expert so food for thought and a grain of salt here. But it seems like both those lights on at 10hrs/day may be a bit much. I'm thinking if I was you I might put each on a separate timer where one comes on at 8am, off at 8pm and the other comes on at say 12pm, off at 6pm. (or there abouts). This better simulates sunrise/midday/sunset and reduces overall light. At the same time reduce any ferts, do a few water changes and beat on the algae. Most of all as mentioned, we (all) need patience as it takes plants time for new plants to get past any transplant shock, root and grow enough to keep algae at bay.

Note: I'm new to a planted aquarium, but I've been an organic vegetable gardener in my 3000 sq.ft. garden for some 35 years. Plants (and transplants) take time to establish and grow.

Edit: Btw, For now, let the algae have the back wall and/or one side or the other (or both) and fight it in the front and around/on the plants. I know it doesn't seem like it, but in some regards, right now algae is helping by absorbing some of the excess nutrients. Once the plants take hold they will out compete for the nutrients and the algae should slip away.


----------



## sevendust111 (Jul 15, 2014)

I don't know if discus is the best idea for an easy tank. The balance between the plants and the fish is a fine line. From what I understand, discus need pristine water quality. Doing water changes that often is probably purges the water of macros/micros. My suggestions:

1. Double dose excel (or metricide equivalent) daily. I dose 3ml metricide daily in my 20L and 2ml in my 15. 
2. Cut the photoperiod. You could probably get away with 6-7 hours. For me, once I get over 7, high or low tech, I have issues.


----------



## TankPlanter (May 31, 2015)

Wow that's a lot of work! I had a very rough start and was ready to give up after about three months, too. I now have a dirted tank capped with blasting sand. I maybe remember to dose with Flourish once every couple weeks. Low light on for 7 hours, with 4 hour siesta breaking that up. No algae problems (I actually worry about my nerite getting enough), plants grow slowly and I finally learned to give up on those that don't make it and stick with plants that grow easily and well (an expensive lesson for me). Good luck!


----------



## NotCousteau (Sep 25, 2014)

I say get rid of all fertilizers except for your root tabs. I've had luck with of those plants (except cabomba) even without fertilizers.

I think the fertilizers are causing your algae bloom. 

No co2, either. I don't think those plants need it.

Good luck.


----------



## someoldguy (Feb 26, 2014)

You're working too hard ! I think that if I were in your place , I'd do the following … Cut out the excel/metricide . Stop EI dosing for now . Maybe just use the beams work for now .Do a 30% water change , wait a couple of days and do another , and then a third a few days after that . 3-30% changes over a week to a week and a half . This should get most of your excess nutrients out . The plants you've got all should do OK with the reduced light except , as mentioned by NOTCOUSTEAU , the cabomba .Wipe/scrape the algae off whatever surfaces you can without damaging anything . Don't try to remove the root tabs . If your tank isn't heavily stocked with plants , think about adding more swords , crypts , anubias and maybe some vallisineria . The whole purpose of all this is to reset your tank to a low/lower mid light low tech tank . Once you've got this done , consider low light EI dosing and minimal water changes .I use this method on my tanks and it works fine . I dose K2HPO4 in a solution of 1.75 g/250ml. ; KNO3 in solution of 15.5g/250ml. and Microplex in a solution of 4.25g/250ml . These solutions were calculated ( via HERE: Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator) to give me a 10ml/10 gallon dose .Dosing every other week . Water changes every 3-4 weeks , maybe 20% max . Plus top ups for evaporation . I also add chelated iron monthly , in solution of 3.4 g/250ml , @10ml/10gal.. Just remember that plant growth will be slow . You've gotta be patient . You also don't want to add any large fish that dig . Keep a light fish load . Good Luck !


----------



## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

Discus is a whole different ball game. EI dosing doesn't work with the Discus water change schedule, at least not as expected. Your photo period is way too long. You should have started at 6 hours and only increased the photoperiod after a few months if you weren't having any algae issues. Metricide and Excel are not well suited for starting a tank, IMO. 

Here's my advice:
1) Lighting: Stick with the 72" LED on a 6 hour photoperiod. Ditch the secondary lighting for now.
2) Dosing: Stop. Just stop it all. Leave the root tabs, but stop EI and excel dosing.
3) Water changes: Perform your water changes for the discus as you have been.
4) Plants: Get frogbit floaters from someone and add them to the tank.

I like to consider myself an expert of low tech. The only tech in any of my tanks has been water changes with a python. The biggest suggestion I have is getting some frogbit. It is an amazing floating plant that should be given away all the time. It will absorb tons of nutrients and rapidly multiple. Once you've established a good frogbit colony, you can easily up the photoperiod. I would routinely scoop out 70% of my frogbit and give it away, only to have the entire surface covered in frogbit in a week or two. Great nutrient sink, very good root system for fish, and can help block out light if you find you have too much.

Your plant growth is limited by the resource that they lack the most, CO2 in your instance. Algae thrives on the remaining resources.


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

That sounds exactly like what my 20g shrimp/baby pleco planted tank is doing. 

I dose nothing in that tank. It's plants see doing incredible. I'll take the planted plus off for now and get some frog bit. I took the cabomba out last night and reduced the lighting to 7 hours. 3 on then 4 hours on later in the evening.


----------



## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

Aparker2005 said:


> That sounds exactly like what my 20g shrimp/baby pleco planted tank is doing.
> 
> I dose nothing in that tank. It's plants see doing incredible. I'll take the planted plus off for now and get some frog bit. I took the cabomba out last night and reduced the lighting to 7 hours. 3 on then 4 hours on later in the evening.


You should be able to get some for free. It is basically a weed. Duckweed works if you can live with it. Some people hate it.


----------



## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

I think Frog-bit and Guppy Grass would both be excellent plants for jump starting a low tech tank. Frankly I wish we had both available here at our LFS.


----------



## lksdrinker (Feb 12, 2014)

Sounds like you're stuck between keeping a discus tank and keeping a planted tank. You're not dosing EI correctly if you're doing water changes every couple of days; which I assume you're doing for the discus;and if so then you're probably not doing enough water changes for the discus (unless they're healthy full grown adults already). You've also got quite a large tank which can be tricky for plants depending on the depth....and dosing liquid carbon in that is going to get expensive in the long run. I also wonder what substrate you're using? Also wonder how long this has been setup ?

I think the best questions you can ask yourself are: 
-whats your goal? A nice planted tank? A nice discus tank? A nice community tank?, etc. Lots of work/maintenance or little to now work/maintenance? (dosing schedules, trimming/maintenance schedules, water change schedules, feeding schedules)
-why are you doing what you're doing? Are you dosing ferts via EI method because you've seen others have success or because you tried something else and weren't happy with the results? 
-why are you dosing liquid carbon? again is it because you were not happy without the dosing or because someone else says to do it that way?
-Why are you trying to grow these particular plants? Sometimes you have to let your tank (fish, plants, lights, etc) tell you what to do. If these wont work in your setup maybe something else will? You wont know unless you try! (for example....I've given up on trying to grow any species of val. For some reason I just cant get them to survive (not thrive, but just survive!) even though plenty of people say its an easy plant. I cant do it low tech, high tech, pressurized co2, no co2....so I stopped trying!)


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

Thanks for the comments guys. It's amazing how doing nothing to my 20g gets good growth. 

For the 125, I started with 2 30" Finnex 24/7s on the 24/7 cycle. I got hardly any growth and all brown algae. 

Got a 48" planted plus and a 72" besmswork 6500k led. Put them each on a 10 hr/day straight cycle. Also have been doing full ei dosing since February. 

All of my java ferns were dying. All brown leaves nearly every day. I thought this was from no nutrients so I started the ei method then. 

After that my java fern picked up, but I also got lots of algae. Started dosing excel daily. Ended up with metricide since it's cheaper. I stopped the ferts and have only been dosing metricide daily for 2 weeks. Java ferns have really picked up but still extremely slow growth. Also moved the lights to a 4 hour each split photo period. 

All of my other plants still have lots of brown algae and some black algae that's hard to get off on my sword and anubius. It's just black, looks like bba. 

So I got some otos and they cleaned the brown algae up good. Found one attached to a discus and that was the end of them in that tank. Put 2 bn pleco and nerites in but haven't done much. 

Today I cut the Finnex planted plus off and have only the besmswork on a 3 and then 4 hour timer. 

I do 2 large water changes per week. The discus and other fish are all doing great. 

So should I just keep this up and still get some frog bit? 

I see so many people's tanks they are lush and mines just ugh. I started dosing metricide to help with algae and growth but it doesn't seem to be doing much. 

Again thank you so much!


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

Current picture


----------



## RyRob (May 30, 2015)

The plants might not be doing what you'd like but your tank looks great from where I'm sitting. That wood looks pretty great in there.


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Aparker2005 said:


> Thanks for the comments guys. It's amazing how doing nothing to my 20g gets good growth.
> 
> For the 125, I started with 2 30" Finnex 24/7s on the 24/7 cycle. I got hardly any growth and all brown algae.
> 
> ...


I have never used a Finnex light fixture, so excuse the dumb question, but can your lights be dimmed? 

Most of your plants are slow growth plants, so hitting them with lots of light is going to cause algae. Also if algae continues to be a problem, I'd cut down the photo period. Again, low light plants do not need lots of light. I'd cut down the photo period to 6 hours and try that for a few weeks.

If this tank is under 6 months old, odds are the brown algae is diatoms which will go away by itself once the tank settles. 

Adding something such as Frog Bit or Water Sprite will help, especially if this tank is new. As for the metricide, I think you're throwing money down the drain. 

This tank needs time to settle and throwing things like Excel or metricide at it isn't going to help. According to your post, it isn't even acting like a decent band aid. I also think you're trying to change too many things at once so even if you do find something that may help, you won't know because you're doing other stuff as well. 

Your first priority should always be the fishes health. You've said that they are fine, so start with something simple like making the photo period shorter. Adding Frog Bit I don't consider a serious change. It would be there to soak up any excess nutrients in the water which will starve off the diatoms and BBA. If you need to up your game with the maintenance side of things, then that's what you need to do. Metricide is never going to work as it is said to if there is too much stuff in the water. 

Plants don't lie. When they're happy, they will always tell you just as they will tell you when they don't like something.


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

Yeah the tank has been set up since November 25. I'm guessing diatoms just took over for the time being


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

My java ferns were the main thing. I had never seen them turn brown so much. After starting excel and metricide they picked up so I just kept it up


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

Did a 90% wc today. Gonna leave the tank alone except for water changes twice per week and the lights which are now on a split 7 hour period. 

Will having the finnex moonlights on for a few hours at night hurt anything? They're much dimmer than the 24/7s were so I didn't think they'd hurt.


----------



## Trickster 75 (Mar 23, 2014)

I had an algae problem in my tank. I belive my problem too much ferts. I was dosing Flourish 3 times a week while also using iron and potassium 2 times a week. Boom alge everywhere. I started spot treating with peroxide and cut back on the Flourish,iron and potassium to once a week. I use Excel every day. No more algae,knock on wood. I didnt have enough plants to use up what I was putting in.


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Aparker2005 said:


> Did a 90% wc today. Gonna leave the tank alone except for water changes twice per week and the lights which are now on a split 7 hour period.
> 
> Will having the finnex moonlights on for a few hours at night hurt anything? They're much dimmer than the 24/7s were so I didn't think they'd hurt.


The moonlights shouldn't cause a problem, but watch the tank anyway just in case.


----------



## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

I run a 75g with only ferns and bolbitis and a touch of anubias. All slow growers.

No plants in the substrate, all on wood. I run 11 hour photoperiod with a single finnex planted plus that's suspended a good 14" from the rim of the tank if not more. 

I don't dose anything, I do weekly or twice a week water changes, and feed fish. I have great growth and no algae. I have a heavy bioload and well fed fish which feeds the plants.

I think your now on the right track, large plant mass, low light, clean water and feed fish. As long as your not keeping hard to grow or high demanding plants (which your not) you should be fine. 

I find algae has a very hard time growing in tanks with large plant mass and a environment that is kept clean.

I keep geophagus tapajos and they do a great job of keeping my sand spotless as they constantly sift it. I also use a thin layer to ensure no anerobic pockets form.

Manually remove as much algae as you can and cut trim or remove plants that are heavily infected with algae growth. Leaving it will only allow algae to grow and spread.


----------



## wantsome (Sep 3, 2006)

You'd be surprised at what you can grow in a 10 gallon tank with just a single florescent tube. You don't need as much light and nutrients as you think you do to grow plants. I have Anubias sitting in a plastic bowl with a lid on that have been there for a month and a half. I also have a gallon zipplock stuffed full of anubais laying on the basement floor for the same time period as posted above. All the plants are green and still kicking. 

Your light duration is too much 8-9 hours max is all you need. I recommend 8 hours. Your lighting is too bright and your adding too many ferts. The more you increase the brightness of your light the more your plants are going to demand co2. If your plants don't get co2 they don't use all the ferts and the aglae wins. You need the plants to out compete the algae in a non co2 envoirment. The better your plants do the less algae you will have. 

I'm going to save myself some time by explaining everything. If you can't dim your light get some floating plants I suggest both. A 125 gallon tank is a expensive tank to learn from. My cousin just started a 75 gallon and it's costing him a fortune in plants to start. Unless your made of money get a smaller tank to learn from. Start with crypts swords anubias wisteria frogbit duckweed. If you can't get plants locally order online. My cousin ordered 40 stems of wisteria for $20.

This is the best article I can suggest. Follow it to the letter and you will succeed. Except one thing. In the article start with half the ferts it recommends for your size tank. Then go from there. 

How to Setup a Low-tech Planted Tank: Planted Aquarium Guide ? Welcome to Sudeep Mandal's spot on the net


----------



## RyRob (May 30, 2015)

40 stems of wisteria for $20 isn't too bad a deal if the stems are mature and healthy. Also, IME, those 40 stems would probably be enough for a 500 gallon tank. It grows everywhere in almost any condition once it settles and it's leaves can get as large as 6"x4", it will fill in everywhere. 

I suggest advising your cousin to join TPT and get some plants from forum members. I just recieved a package from a member that was nothing but healthy, submersed plants. Cheaper and healthier than any e-commerce site I've used and a massive selection. 

I've told a few people about TPT and no one seems to listen lol.


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

This is what my plants are all doing. I'm still leaving the tank alone but all of my S Repens is melting away it seems. 

This is also what my sword, wisteria, and Java ferns are doing. Browning and dying. I have no idea what's going on with this tank but it's more and more frustrating every day! 

My water sprite is the only thing doing worth a flip along with my Vals and crypts.


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Is this damage and algae new when you did your big water change the other day or is this left over from before? Either way, all the stuff that looks like it has dying hair algae should be cleaned out. It does no good leaving that in there. If the spotty brown algae that is on healthy leaves can be removed either by hand or even with a small paint brush dedicated to tank use, wipe them down. It will allow the plants to get light and do what they need to do. 

I've since found out that plants like Java Ferns do not like Excel and things like metricide as it causes them to melt. I'm not sure if they'll come back or not, but if there is any healthy growth to be found, leave it and see what happens. 

While the pictures look bad, I'm seeing some green in there that may just need time to recover, so I don't think all is lost. I think you said you have another tank, right? What are you doing differently with this tank that is making it more difficult? You don't really have to answer me, but sometimes when a person has a 'easy' tank and a new one is giving them trouble, looking to the trouble free one can sometimes provide answers of what is going on if that makes sense.


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

This is all old growth except for the Java ferns and s Repens. I have java ferns turning brown with the picture I showed being algae from before. 

S Repens started melting as soon as I stopped the metricide. 

My 20g tank I'm not doing a thing to. Feeding the fish, water change once every 2 weeks. 

My Ludwigia is at the top of the tank now. It melted within a day after moving some to the 125


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

How aggravating. Nothing like a tank giving you mixed signals of what to do. 

There is always a risk of having melt back when moving a plant, so that doesn't surprise me. As for the rest of it, I would clean up and continue to watch the other plants in the tank and see what happens. You had a lot going on and it will take time for things to chill. You don't have to do this of course, but at least getting the dead stuff out of there won't be funking up your water parameters.


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

I'm thinking of redoing the entire scape. I originally wanted a Java fern covered driftwood but this isn't happening. I also wonder if buying all new java ferns would work? 

Anyway I'm thinking of just taking everything out and having the woods, the Val in the corners, and water sprite maybe wisteria fill in all the back open spaces. Water sprite is the only thing not giving me any issue whatsoever. 

I'd keep the crypts and maybe the swords too. I'm just getting flustered when I've had such good success with my other tanks. 

I'll do what you said first. Here's the current full setup now


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

I don't blame you for being frustrated. All tanks are different though, even ones that are kept under the same roof.

I've never kept discus as I find them intimidating, so anything I would do would be putting them first and making sure their water is as clean as possible. I don't know if they are really that hard to keep or not, but that is the stigma they often come attached with.

Having Java Fern attached to driftwood is not hard. I have 3 species of Java Fern in both of my tanks. They're not attached to anything and are starting to grow well versus simply existing because of the new ferts I'm using and swapping out my substrate over the course of a few weeks seems to have also helped. I didn't remove all the old substrate at once to avoid cycle issues. I changed it out a 1/4 of the tank at a time, once a week on water change day. It is a pain in the butt doing things this way, but cycle problems are a much worse pain in the butt that I'd rather avoid.

For the record, I do have a bottle of Excel in the house, but after a week of dosing less than a 1/4 of the recommended dose I stopped using it as it didn't feel right. The plants never took a hit because the dose was so tiny and I do 40% water changes, but I've since moved the Excel out of my fish stuff drawer. I have no clue what I'm going to do with it, but making sure all other things are in check to avoid algae outbreaks just seems easier to me. Algae only needs a few things and I can control what those few things are. Water flow, light and keeping tabs on nutrients. 

The usual advice for starting a planted tank is to fill the tank with plants and see what survives. Since you're already dealing with bad feelings with this tank, I wouldn't go that way and personally never have. All the plants I have, have been added over time. There are things that I can't grow such as Tiger Lotus and currently moss of all things, but I'm trying out the advice given on the moss issue and I'll see how it goes. Mosses like cooler water, my tanks were being kept too warm. I've read that discus like to be kept in warmer water, so you may want to look into plants that like that environment. Before spending a week bringing my tanks down from 82 to 78 which is what they are both at now, I had zero problems with low light plants being kept in warmer water. 

I would stick to low light plants while maintaining the the new photo period you have. It is said that Excel doesn't stick around in the water for long, but if you wanted to wait until after another water change ( or a few) no harm done if you do that. In the meantime, this is a chance to find any dead spots around the tank that may be having issues with not getting enough water flow and things like that. A ounce of prevention is worth it's weight in gold. I would also keep plants like the Wisteria around for the time being. If after the proverbial dust settles and you're happy with how the tank is coming along, you can always take it out.

If things like ferts are a struggle, now would also be the time to consider perhaps changing what you've already done or trying something new all together. I had zero luck with the Seachem line so I switched to PPS-Pro. It is simple and I really like it. I keep the ferts in the fridge to avoid the mold issue and dose both of my tanks for a low light tank 6 days a week with no dosing on water change day. Like everything else, this is entirely up to you. 

Whatever you decide to do, take it slow. Crap happens and this too will pass.


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

Are my ferns getting too much light? No c02 period? I just am at a loss for these "easy" plants. 

Jungle Val is spreading like crazy but gets nasty hair looking algae towards the top. It also seems to die quickly, maybe from too much metricide. 

The water sprite, vals, and crypts look to be what I'll keep and give up on having a Java fern covered driftwood. 

I hope the wisteria keeps doing OK. I love it!


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Are the ferns on top of the driftwood dying off or in really rough shape? From the pictures it looks like they are getting way too much light. If you had floating plants to act like a filter between them and the lights, they might be okay, but giving them some shade may help them out if they are not doing well. If you want to keep Java fern, move it to lower areas of the driftwood so they're not getting fried under the light. 

Jungle Val does not like Excel and metricide. There is much debate over how much Vals will tolerate and what makes them wilt. They are fast growing so they are worth keeping around. Keep the healthy growth, clip back the dying or dead stuff.

Wisteria is my idea of a canary in the coal mine of the aquatic world. If you ever wonder if your tank is getting enough light, check the leaves on the wisteria. If there is enough light, the leaves will look like a fern. If there isn't enough light, the leaves become solid. 

I don't bother CO2 so I'm the wrong person to ask about that, Slow growing plants won't much faster with it. Some people use CO2 to control algae, but that usually backfires when their CO2 runs out, blah,blah,blah. It's a headache I can live without.


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

I have new growth on a Java fern and the leaves will just turn brown from the rhizome up. Maybe some frog bit would help. 

My wisteria is growing, it just has that fuzzy looking brown algae on it everywhere. My S Repens are now dying from it and it's all over my swords.


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

I would say the Java ferns are getting fried. If you really don't want floating plants, as I said, they can be moved. You can try dimming the lights some, but I don't know if it will help them out or not at least for the plants on the very top of the driftwood. If the plants on the lower sections are doing okay, those should be the indicator that they are okay with the amount of light they are getting.

If the algae can be manually removed by rubbing it off, you should remove it. From the last batch of pictures you posted it looked like you had a lot of dead hair algae. Leaves that have that stuff on it should also be removed.


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

And see its funny. The Java that's doing the worst is in the lower part, and the ones that are doing best are nearly towards the top.


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Hmmm that's interesting. It is hard to tell from the pictures what is going with what. Are all the Java ferns on the bottom doing poorly or is it just some of them?


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

Mostly all of them. None of them look particularly well. 

Just for reference, this is my old 55  Those were the days


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Pretty tank. The lighting on the 55 from the picture anyway looks way different than your current set up. Is there a way to somewhat replicate the lighting from the 55?


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

That's just a 48" finnex planted plus. I think it was on a split timer for 8 hours per day. 

The 125 is 72" long. Maybe I should just use it instead of the 72 for now? Heck it can't hurt?


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

No, it can't hurt, but remember any changes you make you have to give the change time to see if it's effective or not. Try it and sit on your hands for a week and see what happens. I know it's easier said than done, but patience is a must in this hobby as you are well aware.

If you can have a tank that looks like the 55, you've got the knowledge. I suspect you being frustrated is overriding what you already know.


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

Aparker2005 said:


> I'm thinking of redoing the entire scape. I originally wanted a Java fern covered driftwood but this isn't happening. I also wonder if buying all new java ferns would work?
> 
> Anyway I'm thinking of just taking everything out and having the woods, the Val in the corners, and water sprite maybe wisteria fill in all the back open spaces. Water sprite is the only thing not giving me any issue whatsoever.
> 
> ...


So with these pics, any new scape ideas?


----------



## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

Try and get your hand on needle leaf java fern. O find it to grow very well in higher light conditions and doesn't age as poorly as standard or narrow leaf fern.

Have a look at my 75 with tons of needle leaf. It's closest to the light where it does best. Don't mind the crappy cell phone quality image. But you get an idea.


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

Thanks for the help guys. I cut every piece of algae covered plant out last night. Moved a few plants around, took out the s Repens, and made a lot of new water sprite bundles. 

Now I'm not adding any ferts or metricide except for root tabs. Not touching the tank other than water changes. Hopefully things go smoother now


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

You got this! :smile2:

When your tank is lush and gorgeous, you can scape mine. I've got two unruly jungle tanks on my hands and don't want to touch anything as the plants are growing and happy. LOL

Seriously though, I look forward to updates on this tank. It will be nothing short of fantastic.


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

Quick update. Tank seems to stay cleaner longer and I'm now having less algae issues. Still some brown algae forming but it wipes right off easily. I also don't have anymore green sand forming. 

Just have slow growth. Not an issue if it will continue to look nice like this. 

I've only dosed 1/2 tsp of K. Everything else has been completely stopped. No ferts, no metricide. 

Lighting is the 72" beams work on a 7 hour timer split 3 and then 4. The 48" Finnex 24/7 moonlights are on from 10 to 12 every night. Gives sort of a slow transition to pitch dark. 

I miss my 24/7 lighting effects, but this works quite well instead. 

Those lights never gave enough full light off and caused too much algae unfortunately. 

Thanks for all the help!


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

Things are really improving in this tank. So much more green. I mean look at how different this sword looks now! 

I'm still running into some brown algae that wipes right off on some wisteria and jungle Val, but no more issues other than that. Thanks so much again everyone!


----------



## toffee (Apr 2, 2007)

So in short, no ferts, no metricide, and reduced lighting hours and intensity solved your problem of algea. Plants are actually enjoying growth under the new less light, no fert approach, right?


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

Seems that way. My wife has commented more on the tank lately than I can remember. 

It's clean, water is crystal clear, plants are green minus some way looks like diatoms, I can't believe it but it works!


----------



## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Aparker2005 said:


> Seems that way. My wife has commented more on the tank lately than I can remember.
> 
> It's clean, water is crystal clear, plants are green minus some way looks like diatoms, I can't believe it but it works!


 Still using root tab's,potassium on occasion,and feeding fishes?
This is a form of fertilizing, and can work under less lighting.
Tank does look nice!


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

Yeah still using root tabs, potassium once per week, and feeding fish. Other than that, not touching the tank other than water changes


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Aparker2005 said:


> Things are really improving in this tank. So much more green. I mean look at how different this sword looks now!
> 
> I'm still running into some brown algae that wipes right off on some wisteria and jungle Val, but no more issues other than that. Thanks so much again everyone!


I missed your last update, so I'm glad I caught this one. 

Well done! Since the brown algae wipes off really easy, keep doing what you're doing. It will go away on it's own. :smile2:


----------



## toffee (Apr 2, 2007)

Aparker2005 said:


> Seems that way. My wife has commented more on the tank lately than I can remember.
> 
> It's clean, water is crystal clear, plants are green minus some way looks like diatoms, I can't believe it but it works!


Your discus needs regular water changes. Otherwise, according to Barr, his non CO2 tanks work better without regular water changes. Every water change cause a CO2 spike that benefits algae more than plants. by the way, love your substrate, sand?


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

Yeah the water changes with the discus always made me wonder how my plants would do. So far with the new method though it's been working great.


----------



## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Don't be shy to nip off a few leaves on the java fern, as long as the rhizome is intact it will get on with life.


----------



## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

If it hasn't been said already, I think your issue, and the change between your 55 gallon and this tank was the color of the substrate. I cannot help but think the white gravel was intensifying the overall light levels, so that your lowering the light intensity was the best choice.

The previous images of this tank the white gravel is almost glaring, too brilliant, like the gravel was 'lasering' the light source. I think that might explain why the Java Fern did poorly even at the lower reaches of the tank.


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

GrampsGrunge said:


> If it hasn't been said already, I think your issue, and the change between your 55 gallon and this tank was the color of the substrate. I cannot help but think the white gravel was intensifying the overall light levels, so that your lowering the light intensity was the best choice.
> 
> The previous images of this tank the white gravel is almost glaring, too brilliant, like the gravel was 'lasering' the light source. I think that might explain why the Java Fern did poorly even at the lower reaches of the tank.


Never thought about that. With taking the planted plus out, it's much more Natural looking now. Great advice all around


----------



## toffee (Apr 2, 2007)

GrampsGrunge said:


> If it hasn't been said already, I think your issue, and the change between your 55 gallon and this tank was the color of the substrate. I cannot help but think the white gravel was intensifying the overall light levels, so that your lowering the light intensity was the best choice.
> 
> The previous images of this tank the white gravel is almost glaring, too brilliant, like the gravel was 'lasering' the light source. I think that might explain why the Java Fern did poorly even at the lower reaches of the tank.


wow, great point. Luckily reducing light intensity is a lot easier then increasing.


----------



## toffee (Apr 2, 2007)

Any updates?


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

Everything still doing great. Only brown diatoms on wisteria really now. I had otos taking care of that but they attached to my discus :/

Slow growth but looking great!


----------



## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

slow growth in a lo-tech tank is good! Hang in there....the diatoms will give up soon!


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

Picking up amanos this weekend


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

So how does everyone get these amazing scapes done? I mean having a large open swimming space, and then the corner just filled with plants? Do you just plant everything right on top of each other? 

My vals haven't grown tall since I cut the algae parts off. They're spreading rapidly though. 

I think this piece of driftwood limits what I can add plant wise, along with no c02. 

We've almost thought of cutting the far right really big part of the log off and using it another way in the tank. 

I just love those huge thick bushes of plants and can't ever get them to do anything. It looks a lot of time like giant balls of Java fern. 

Should I pick some more ferns up to place along the driftwood? 

Tank looks great, just no real scape to it.


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

I aquascaper I am not. My tanks look like they belong to a 5-year old, but I've found some scapes that I like and can easily replicate on Green Machine and Tropica. What I did was look for scapes that use most of the plants I already have, then it's just a matter of modifying them to my tank's size. 

Example: I want to use this scape Layout 43 - Tony Swinney - Tropica Aquarium Plants in my 5.5-gallon. I like it because it has color, but a amazon sword in a 5.5 gallon isn't going to work, so by using java fern and crypts instead, I can get the look without having to pull the whole thing a part a few months from now. 

I have zero artistic ability, but I can modify so that takes the intimidation factor out. I'll be doing the same with the 10 and 29 gallon even though I finally figured out what bugs me about the 29. All my fish hang out in the mid to lower layer of the tank, so all the space at the top is wasted which makes all the plants look dwarfed. I'll deal with it for now, but the 29 is outta here when I get it's replacement. 

Poke around and see what tickles your funny bone.


----------



## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Smart fish avoid the surface layer to avoid predatory birds. If they have some floating plants, or overhanging roots etc. they might hang out a little higher.


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Nordic said:


> Smart fish avoid the surface layer to avoid predatory birds. If they have some floating plants, or overhanging roots etc. they might hang out a little higher.


I never thought about that, but you're right.

I do have floating plants, but they are there more for function that form. They tone down light and reduce stress, especially with my bleeding heart tetras. A possible alternative would be to add something like gouramis, but I don't have luck with them and I'm happy with the fish I have.


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

So do you guys think it'd be too much and limiting swimming space adding any other wood to the tank? My wife says I'm just wanting to add stuff to add and to leave it alone. She's probably right haha


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

When we move the tank, I'm cutting the large back right portion off this driftwood. It just takes up too much room unfortunately. 

Also, had 2 batches of Java fern turn brown from the bottom up and an entire system and leaves melted off like before. Haven't changed a thing. 

What keeps causing this!?


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Are they tied to something or are they in the substrate? If they are in the substrate, did you bury the the rhizome?


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

They're on the driftwood. I have photos in this thread


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Are you still dosing EI? What is your nitrate level?


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

No ei and nitrates are between 5 and 10. I've stopped dosing ferts all together


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Is part of that number from nitrates in your tap water? It's a dumb question, but I have around 5 ppm nitrates from my tap so I always have to keep that in mind when testing. 

How are the rest of your plants holding up? 

I was keeping my little 5.5 gallon around around the 10 ppm range and noticed that plants were starting to look a little off. I've upped the dose slightly and they look better now. The tank is what I'd consider lightly planted.


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

I haven't tested tap, just tank water. 

Rest of my plants are all good. Slow growth due to no c02 and root tabs only, but good. Java fern just occasionally turns solid brown and dies. Not all of it, just random stems.


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Is there new growth coming in to replace the dead leaves? If so, this is normal. If not, unless somebody else has another idea, I wonder if they need some nitrates.


----------



## Aparker2005 (Jun 4, 2014)

No new growth in these. On others, yes


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

If I were you, I'd try dosing the water column with some nitrates and see what happens. It could be that the other plants are soaking up what is available and leaving nothing for the java ferns. 

Your tank is clean which is good, but it may 'too clean' for the size of your tank if that makes sense.


----------

