# what deficiency in my rotala macrandra



## fitos100 (Dec 8, 2018)

Check the photos pls and help me to identify the deficiency. My rotala is growing fast, and the top site it's look nice but the bottom, as you see the leaves have holes and at the end the shreat. It looks like a mobile element but I'm not sure. 
The plant is near the Co2 exit to be sure for CO2,
and is underneath the lights. 
300 lt
4× T5 39W lamps 8 hours
NO3 = 20 and up
PO4 = 4.5 add per week
K = 20 ppm
Ph from 7.4 drop to 6.1
KH= 2
GH= 8


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

My guess is unknown Ca, Mg, trace elements, and unstable CO2. Was this plant moved in here or is it already replanted top grown here under the same conditions? Can you find your PAR light intensity with Light Calculator?


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## fitos100 (Dec 8, 2018)

My Mg was 30 ppm and my Ca 15 ppm.
I try to lower the Mg to 10 ppm these days.
As for trace elements I dose Fe=0.35 ppm , Mn=0.038, B=0.027, Zn=0.008 per week.
the plant was always there, I just cut the tops and plant them near.

CO2 is working with PH controller and is working with consistency.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Not sure how you lowering your Mg but if you can lower it to > 0 < 5 ppm and Ca 20 – 30 ppm. Your trace elements Fe 0.35 ppm, Mn 0.038, B 0.027, Zn 0.008 per week is incomplete. The usual, when Fe is dosed at 0.35 ppm, is Mn 0.1 ppm, B 0.065 ppm, Zn 0.07 ppm, Mo 0.003 ppm, Cu 0.005 and optional Ni 0.00035 ppm, dosed in daily instalments.

I see discus fish on your pictures, if fed well then you don’t need to add any nitrogen and phosphate. Only 20 – 30 ppm K, trace elements and Ca with Mg. Because of the large fish you need periodic large water changes to keep water clean. 

Also what would help is keeping plants shorter so more light can get to the bottom with less shading.

Hi
Here you can see how your trace element mix is different than the rest of the most commonly used products.


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## fitos100 (Dec 8, 2018)

Actually I make a dilution with RO water and tap water. This the way I fix my Mg.
As for the feeding is not so much, so after many tests I found out, by adding 
NO3 =11 ppm 
PO4 = 4.5 ppm 
Fe = 0.35
per week I have the amounts of fertilizers I want in my tank.
before the 50% water change, I have 
NO3= 25 ppm
PO4 = 1 ppm
Fe = 0.1 ppm 
after the water change
NO3 = 10 ppm
PO4 = 0.6 ppm
Fe = 0.05 ppm

The only thing remaining is to get higher my macros.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

What is your water source Ca, Mg and KH?
What do you use to increase K?
What product is your trace element mix?
How often do you do your 50% water change?


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## fitos100 (Dec 8, 2018)

My Ca, Mg, and KH I get them from the tap water. 2 ltr of my tap water with 18 ltr RO water I have 
Mg = 12ppm
Ca= 15 ppm (I add some more Ca with fert.)
KH = 2
I do water change once a week. 50%
My trace CSM+B are from aqua plants care company.

As for potassium I found always 20 ppm and above, although I add only 8 ppm from KNO3 and KH2PO4 so I think I have issues with K uptake.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

NO3 and PO4
With discus fish you don’t need to dose NO3 and PO4, the fish produce enough. If your test kits read anything more than zero, assuming you calibrated them with RO water, then it is accumulated concentration over the plant’s needs. 

CO2
CO2 drop of 7.4 – 6.1 = 1.3 pH seems alright, assuming the whole photoperiod.

Light
You said 4 x T5 39W 8 hours, 300 L aquarium so it looks like ADA 120-H, 295 L, 78 gall, 47” x 18” x 24”, 120 cm x 45 cm x 60 cm. If these are T5 HO 5” above water then you have 64 PAR. This is good light as long as plants are not too dense, need to keep them shorter, especially now around the macrandra. 

KH
2 dKH is perfect

GH
15 ppm Ca = 2.1 dGH
30 ppm Mg = 6.9 dGH
Total 9 dGH

Having 30 ppm Mg and 15 ppm Ca is not good. So when you start new mix with RO to get 12 ppm Mg and 15 ppm Ca, you may need to add more Ca up to 45 ppm Ca total with CaSO4. If I was in this situation I would use 100% RO because you cannot be sure what comes from tap seasonally and otherwise. The 10% tap is not worth the unknown. With pure RO you can add 5 ppm Mg with MgSO4, 20 ppm Ca with CaSO4 and baking soda NaHCO3 to 2 dKH. 

K
You can add K to 30 ppm with K2SO4 once at water change and not to worry about it during the week.

TE
You said the trace element product comes from aqua plants care company and is CSM+B. This is not CSM+B because the ratios you posted about it are different than real CSM+B. So I think we need to pay attention here because plants will not grow well without proper trace elements. Aside from that, I would change light period from 8 to 7 hours. It may grow healthier plants when the trace elements are not solved yet.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Edward said:


> TE
> You said the trace element product comes from aqua plants care company and is CSM+B. This is not CSM+B because the ratios you posted about it are different than real CSM+B. So I think we need to pay attention here because plants will not grow well without proper trace elements. Aside from that, I would change light period from 8 to 7 hours. It may grow healthier plants when the trace elements are not solved yet.


I am using PPS-PRO but I made some modifications. (N is 1:1 Urea and Nitrates)
I am using unchelated Micros except Fe-DTPA with kh=5 gh=8 water. (CO2 24/7 at ph=6.4-6.5)

How would you adjust Micro ratios given hard water and unchelated trace(except Fe)?

Also currently I have issues with Algae if lights are on too long (Fuzz Algae on old leaves and GDA on hardscape). So I have been using ~100 par at only 4 hours. 

Have you experimented with 8 hour at 50 par versus 4 hours at 100 par? (For getting a better red out of ludwigia palustris)?

I'll move this to my journal if necessary just saw your post and I thought I'd ask here.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

cl3537 said:


> I am using PPS-Pro but I made some modifications. (N is 1:1 Urea and Nitrates)


 Yes, few years back this combination of urea with NO3 was popular, NH4 with NO3 also. However, if we think about it, NO3 will appear in the water column regardless due to nitrogen oxidation. The question is why dose NO3 when portion of urea we dose will end up as NO3 anyway?

Some time ago I have added Urea section to my PPS website where I describe a direct replacement of PPS-Pro with PPS-Pro Urea for people who want to try it. It has the same elemental ratios and concentrations, only the nitrogen form comes in organic urea molecule instead of KNO3. 












> I am using unchelated Micros except Fe-DTPA with kh=5 gh=8 water. (CO2 24/7 at ph=6.4-6.5)
> How would you adjust Micro ratios given hard water and unchelated trace(except Fe)?


 I don’t know anybody who knows the answer. There are people experimenting with non-chelated trace elements for three years now or longer, changing rations and concentrations up and down and back again and still not finding it. 

Personally, I used EDTA+DTPA MicroMix by Plant-Prod distributed by GLA EDTA+DTPA MICROMIX for very long time without issues. Then I added Zn and Ni to it and some plants responded positively, I named it Upgraded CSM+B / Trace Mix and I use it since. 

It was always obvious that plants don’t need KH to be happy, even though I had to go through hell for posting it, I continued. These days, after a million failed attempts in hard water regions, we know high KH is detrimental to plants. 

I never advised anyone and never will this because of safety reasons, but you are a chemist and you know what you are doing. Check this thread, in my last post #68 I attached a picture of the results of pH drop by 1 dKH for a reference. Credit and thanks to @SpringHalo for creating the HCl Calculator. I use diluted acid and 90 gallon aquarium for the pH drop, it is accurate.

For every 1 dKH drop we get 12.7 ppm Cl2 increase. I thought, if I use my tap water and drop KH from 5 to 1 degree I get an increase of 51 ppm of Cl2 (yes, the increase is not linear to drop rate), plus the existing tap Cl2 of 27 ppm, I get 78 ppm of Cl2. That may not go well with my plants, I said. 

Well, I tried. I could never grow plants as nicely in local tap before as now after lowering KH to 1 degree. It is still the same tap water minus the KH. For this test I used 125 gallon aquarium that was used to 1 dKH water from RO and light intensity in hundreds of PAR, the highest in the hobby. Result? Plants do not complain, they didn’t even notice the change. 

( For everybody here: Please do not change KH directly in the aquarium. It needs to be done in a separate reservoir, aerated for 24 hours and KH retested before use. )



> Also currently I have issues with Algae if lights are on too long (Fuzz Algae on old leaves and GDA on hardscape). So I have been using ~100 par at only 4 hours.
> 
> Have you experimented with 8 hour at 50 par versus 4 hours at 100 par?


 Yes, I prefer the strongest light intensity I can get for shorter period of time. I have the strongest light in the hobby, undetectable PO4 and clean glass. Very strong light makes everything more dynamic, active, colourful and healthy. If you find the main photoperiod too short, add viewing lights with lower PAR.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Do you have any pics of the entire tank? Are all plants doing poorly, or just the Macranda?

Is your primary focus on plants or the Discus? What's best for one may not be for the other.

In general, Rotala Macranda's should be pretty easy to keep. Looks like you have decent light and CO2. I assume with Discus you must stay on top of tank maintenance. 

My first guess would the CSM+B if that is what you are dosing. I would try cutting it way back and see how the Macranda responds. If it improves, I would look into alternatives for micros (DIY custom preferred). 

And I noticed your said you dose 4.5 ppm P per week, but the reading at the end of the week is 1.0 ppm. What is your substrate?

As to macros, my experience has been that Macranda's prefer richer dosing than other Rotalas. I have a heavy fish load, but also dose NO3 and PO4, as fish waste has never been enough to keep these species happy. So my second thought would be to increase NO3 and PO4 dosing and see what happens. 

But to me, the issue with your tank is the Discus. They are more sensitive to NO3 than most, so I would consult with other Discus keepers as to how they combine Discus/Plants.

Here is my Macranda from this afternoon. High light, high CO2, inert substrate, custom micros, and fairly rich macro dosing. Like I said, should be a fairly easy one to keep happy.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Edward said:


> Yes, few years back this combination of urea with NO3 was popular, NH4 with NO3 also. However, if we think about it, NO3 will appear in the water column regardless due to nitrogen oxidation. The question is why dose NO3 when portion of urea we dose will end up as NO3 anyway?


The assumption is that plants can get some of the Ammonia before the bacteria do, I am dosing very small amounts daily <0.2ppm daily. Barr wrote a paper about plant preference for Ammonia in small doses, i have also read a paper that Ammonium mitigates problems with high kh in strawberry plants. Also @happi is a strong proponent of Urea/Ammonia so I thought I would try it.

Neither of those sources are definitive or conclusive, so I could always go back to pure NO3 one day. I have often wondered if Urea/Ammonia could cause the little bit of Fuzz algae I see on some of my plants and their old leaves.



> Some time ago I have added Urea section to my PPS website where I describe a direct replacement of PPS-Pro with PPS-Pro Urea for people who want to try it. It has the same elemental ratios and concentrations, only the nitrogen form comes in organic urea molecule instead of KNO3.


Yes I did some similar calculations except I am dosing 1.13ppm total N weekly(2.5ppm KNO3 and 2.5ppm(KNO3 Equivalent) weekly. (Half of everything in this table)









I was initially at (2.26N) (10ppm NO3 equivalent) and 0.32P(1ppm PO4 Equivalent) but I was seeing too much algae so I dialed it back to half(both macro and micros) and since then(~month) haven't seen any spot algae on the glass and not much on plants either. I dose 1/7 of the weekly amount daily.



> I don’t know anybody who knows the answer. There are people experimenting with non-chelated trace elements for three years now or longer, changing ratios and concentrations up and down and back again and still not finding it.


Well @burr740 and the high dosing 'dutch tank' people certainly are having success with non chelated Micros but my tank and dosing of Macros is much leaner and water much harder than theirs that is why I asked you.
I beleive too much Fe causes many wrong things in my tank(like hair algae) so I am keeping it as lean as possible. Overall my tap water makes it very difficult to dial in Ferts. Pogostemon Erectus and Rotala Rotundifolia still branch when they get near the top without being trimmed. I can't get the wine red out of Ludwigia Palustris either although it seems they get darker if I let them grow longer before trimming.


> Personally, I used EDTA+DTPA MicroMix by Plant-Prod distributed by GLA EDTA+DTPA MICROMIX


Well I like the control of measuring out my own fertilizer and not having potential uniformity issues but its a possibility for the future.
I could also just buy some EDTA and pretty much have the same and be able to control Micros better but before doing that I should just go to RODI water first.



> It was always obvious that plants don’t need KH to be happy, even though I had to go through hell for posting it, I continued. These days, after a million failed attempts in hard water regions, we know high KH is detrimental to plants.


I have had loads of problems with even my moderate kh=5, that is why I am strongly considering a $400 RODI system, its just annoying to do the installation, drill holes in copper drain pipes, buy a bladder tank for under my sink , when I may move in 6 months.



> I never advised anyone and never will this because of safety reasons, but you are a chemist and you know what you are doing.


I have burned many holes in lab coats cleaning glassware with HCL or NaOH in my lab days but I don't find HCL all that bad and I was dealing with 5M HCL much stronger than Muriatic Acid. But to lower kH I'd rather just go with RODI water no need to mess with HCL/Muriatic acid in my kitchen for a 17G tank! Based on my tap water report(and old copper pipes) I may have too much Copper in my water or other toxins so I'd rather just control everything than just lower kH. I may have no choice and just go with RODI water soon as I feel like even with many fertilizer tweaks many plants will still not be happy with my tap water.



> Yes, I prefer the strongest light intensity I can get for shorter period of time. I have the strongest light in the hobby, undetectable PO4 and clean glass. Very strong light makes everything more dynamic, active, colourful and healthy. If you find the main photoperiod too short, add viewing lights with lower PAR.


I am not worried about the viewing period, I am running a Twinstar 600S on a dimmer so I run my 4 hours at 50% intensity ~100par at substrate on a timer. Then when I want to view the tank I can run the light at 10% manually for as long as I like. 

I guess you just confirmed what I was doing already, short photoperiod at high par seems better.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Cl3537
Plants taking NH3 ammonia / NH4 ammonium before the bacteria is a major plus for plants. Plant’s best nitrogen source is just that. If they don’t have it they go for NO3 nitrate. The best part as I mentioned before, is plants take NH3 ammonia / NH4 ammonium 24 hours a day, unlike NO3 nitrate only during the day. This is why urea or fish waste (NH3 / NH4) are such good options to supply nitrogen to plants. 

Dosing urea works very well when there is not enough nitrogen produced by fish. Urea supplies not only NH4 but also carbon, CO2. Plants love it. Any urea overdose can be monitored by detecting NO3 in the water column. 

Both, ADA Aqua Design Amano and Seachem use urea as a source of nitrogen.



> I have often wondered if Urea/Ammonia could cause the little bit of Fuzz algae I see on some of my plants and their old leaves.


 Absolutely not. What you may see is when those are dosed plants kick into higher nutrient demand and something might be in short supply, short term or long term. This is when plant’s health and immunity is compromised and algae takes over. 

You are talking about red plants. They turn redder or red when they are not nitrogen overdosed and are getting sufficient light intensity. Even some green plants can do it. 

CSM+B and uniformity issues.
Well, it is quite possible that some sources might be accidently compromised. We don’t know what resellers do or how they do the B additions to CSM. But, when we talk about the EDTA+DTPA MicroMix by Plant-Prod distributed by GLA EDTA+DTPA MICROMIX we can be sure it is done properly and professionally. It is being manufactured to the specifications and not modified in any way by third party. Nobody is adding anything to it, it is a solid product.

For the light, I never had problems with high light intensity, 300 – 400 PAR no issues, thousands of PAR in upper areas no issues. What breaks the balance is duration, it may become too much accumulated light energy per day causing the problems.

And for the OP fitos100, you need to get more light to the macrandra lower parts at the substrate to keep it solid.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

This Rotala macrandra, 
has never seen any dosed N nitrogen or P phosphorus in any form, *only fish waste*. 

Water column parameters are 4 ppm NO3, undetectable PO4, 30 ppm K, 20 – 35 ppm Ca, 5 – 8 ppm Mg, 1 dKH. Daily dose 0.01 ppm Fe(TE) EDTA+DTPA MicroMix by Plant-Prod distributed by GLA EDTA+DTPA MICROMIX and custom modified with Zn and Ni to Upgraded CSM+B / Trace Mix. Light source very intense, 350 PAR at the plant tops, 4 hours a day with additional viewing LED lights. Substrate inert.

Rotala macrandra


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Edward said:


> Water column parameters are 4 ppm NO3, undetectable PO4, 30 ppm K, 20 – 35 ppm Ca, 5 – 8 ppm Mg, 1 dKH. Daily dose 0.01 ppm Fe(TE) EDTA+DTPA MicroMix by Plant-Prod distributed by GLA EDTA+DTPA MICROMIX and custom modified with Zn and Ni to Upgraded CSM+B / Trace Mix. Light source very intense, 350 PAR at the plant tops, 4 hours a day with additional viewing LED lights. Substrate inert.


In your original formula for Plant Prod or CSM+B Zn was 0.4%.
But now in upgraded, Zn has been increased from 0.4% to 1.4% a 3.5X increase.

Could you please explain the evolution and reasoning for the change as I was using the old Ratio.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Edward said:


> Cl3537
> Plants taking NH3 ammonia / NH4 ammonium before the bacteria is a major plus for plants. Plant’s best nitrogen source is just that. If they don’t have it they go for NO3 nitrate. The best part as I mentioned before, is plants take NH3 ammonia / NH4 ammonium 24 hours a day, unlike NO3 nitrate only during the day. This is why urea or fish waste (NH3 / NH4) are such good options to supply nitrogen to plants.


I was under the impression plants can uptake and store nutrients when lights are on or off and it doesn't matter when you dose. Could you please provide a source that supports your statement, that is an interesting difference.



> Dosing urea works very well when there is not enough nitrogen produced by fish. Urea supplies not only NH4 but also carbon, CO2. Plants love it. Any urea overdose can be monitored by detecting NO3 in the water column.


I was under the impression Urea breaks down first to Ammonia so if anything I would be concerned with the Ammonia levels as to not cause a Bacterial or Algae bloom or poison fish. 

It has been suggested to me that my entire source of N could be Urea but I have not tried that yet. What do you think the safe limit for concentration of Urea is that you can dose at one time? 



> Both, ADA Aqua Design Amano and Seachem use urea as a source of nitrogen.


It is suspected Tropica uses the reduced N source as well.



> You are talking about red plants. They turn redder or red when they are not nitrogen overdosed and are getting sufficient light intensity. Even some green plants can do it.


Light, Nitrogen Levels, Fe Levels, and general health of the plant(I suspect the imbalance in P or K caused problems for color as well), and maturity of the leaves.

It seems my Ludwigia Palustris colors up more on larger mature leaves. I know it is not as simple as lower Nitrogen or increasing light I wish it were. (see my Journal).




> CSM+B and uniformity issues.


Are you saying they dissolve all the elements to mix and then dry the solution to get uniform mixing? Otherwise I don't know how they could mix big batches uniformly for our purposes. The original CSM was meant as a bulk fertilizer, that was my concern, not the concentration of B.



> But, when we talk about the EDTA+DTPA MicroMix by Plant-Prod distributed by GLA EDTA+DTPA MICROMIX we can be sure it is done properly and professionally. It is being manufactured to the specifications and not modified in any way by third party. Nobody is adding anything to it, it is a solid product.


If it is produced for the Aquarium hobby and meant to be dosed at low the concentrations that we do I beleive that product would not have the same issues.



> For the light, I never had problems with high light intensity, 300 – 400 PAR no issues, thousands of PAR in upper areas no issues. What breaks the balance is duration, it may become too much accumulated light energy per day causing the problems.


I keep reading this statement, you, Dennis Wong, others, but it is so abstract and an unobtainable to me. I am meticulous with my husbandry by my tank balance is fragile I can't kick it into overdrive like that or I'll get deficiencies or algae. I am hoping with RO/DI water that things will be a little more forgiving. With my hard water I have to keep fertilizer lean or face algae or Lythraecae issues. Without more ferts I know I can't just pump up my lights to max (I could get 200par+).


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

cl3537 said:


> In your original formula for Plant Prod or CSM+B Zn was 0.4%.
> But now in upgraded, Zn has been increased from 0.4% to 1.4% a 3.5X increase.
> 
> Could you please explain the evolution and reasoning for the change as I was using the old Ratio.


 CSM and EDTA+DTPA MicroMix are both made by Plant-Prod. CSM is only EDTA and has B supposedly added by resellers, who knows. The EDTA+DTPA MicroMix is a solid product.

I have researched horticultural documents, natural waters, drinking water analysis and commercial aquatic plant trace element fertilizers. When we ignore Fe in the elemental ratio compositions then we can see a trend contradicting CSM and EDTA+DTPA MicroMix Zn levels to the other elements. It is also low in comparison to the Typical plant ratio analysis. By averaging data I came to the conclusion to increase Zn to the Typical plant ratio analysis level. My aquarium tests showed improvement in plant structural shape and plant health. I am happy with the results.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

cl3537 said:


> I was under the impression plants can uptake and store nutrients when lights are on or off and it doesn't matter when you dose. Could you please provide a source that supports your statement, that is an interesting difference.


 I was involved in this topic few times before, it is somewhere on this forum, I have discussed this with @Deanna in great details.


> I was under the impression Urea breaks down first to Ammonia so if anything I would be concerned with the Ammonia levels as to not cause a Bacterial or Algae bloom or poison fish.
> 
> It has been suggested to me that my entire source of N could be Urea but I have not tried that yet. What do you think the safe limit for concentration of Urea is that you can dose at one time?


 Ammonia or to ammonium, this is why I prefer CO2 continuously in order to have low pH and therefore ammonium, not ammonia. On the other hand if it is good for ADA and Seachem then I wouldn’t worry. Bacterial or algae bloom it obviously doesn’t cause because plants take it up very fast. Though overdosing poses a risk just as any other fertilizer of course. 


> Are you saying they dissolve all the elements to mix and then dry the solution to get uniform mixing? Otherwise I don't know how they could mix big batches uniformly for our purposes. The original CSM was meant as a bulk fertilizer, that was my concern, not the concentration of B.


 I have no idea how they do it, I’ve been mixing EDTA+DTPA MicroMix batches as small as 170 ml and never had any problem. 


> I keep reading this statement, you, Dennis Wong, others, but it is so abstract and an unobtainable to me. I am meticulous with my husbandry by my tank balance is fragile I can't kick it into overdrive like that or I'll get deficiencies or algae. I am hoping with RO/DI water that things will be a little more forgiving. With my hard water I have to keep fertilizer lean or face algae or Lythraecae issues. Without more ferts I know I can't just pump up my lights to max (I could get 200par+).


 Once you have 1 dKH you will be blasting the light at 200 PAR and teaching others how to do it.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

cl3537 said:


> What do you think the safe limit for concentration of Urea is that you can dose at one time?


 Urea needs to be dosed daily because plant uptake and reaction is very fast at the beginning and then it settles down. The daily addition quantity is equal to the NO3 equivalent of the usual total uptake. Any overdose will register as accumulated NO3 in the water column. 

Aside from that, we must not forget that urea alone will not work without Ni nickel. Plants must have Ni in order to process urea molecule.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Edward said:


> Plants taking NH3 ammonia / NH4 ammonium before the bacteria is a major plus for plants. Plant’s best nitrogen source is just that. If they don’t have it they go for NO3 nitrate. The best part as I mentioned before, is plants take NH3 ammonia / NH4 ammonium 24 hours a day, unlike NO3 nitrate only during the day. This is why urea or fish waste (NH3 / NH4) are such good options to supply nitrogen to plants.
> 
> 
> cl3537 said:
> ...


 Here is one.
...


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Edward said:


> Here is one.
> ...


Thanks great article.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Articles I. and II.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

cl3537 said:


> I keep reading this statement, you, Dennis Wong, others, but it is so abstract and an unobtainable to me. I am meticulous with my husbandry by my tank balance is fragile I can't kick it into overdrive like that or I'll get deficiencies or algae.


Dennis is at just over 200 PAR at the substrate, so high but not crazy high.

And in his journal he says that such high PAR is of little benefit to most tanks. IME, at some point light is subject to the law of diminishing returns. 

Not to say it can't be done, but I see very few advocating 300 or 400 PAR at the substrate, as for the average tank = algae farm. And quickly.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Expanding upon @Edward’s mentioning my urea use:

I have been dosing urea, exclusively (for N), for about 8 months and have been very pleased with the results. I wasn’t unhappy with NO3 dosing, but I find it easier to control NO3 levels with the urea as the flywheel for N adjustment vis-à-vis fish waste. I noticed an uptick in PO4 and Mg consumption (not Ca - oddly) once I began urea dosing. I assume that this is an indicator of accelerated growth vs. my former NO3 dosing. I am currently adding 1ppm NO3 equivalent daily. I have no bio-media in my filter, so most BB conversion to NO3 is within the tank. With substrate/surface BB being much slower than bio-media in a filter, my expectation is that the plants are using all the NH4 they need and that very little NO3 is being consumed. I have both a heavy fish and plant load and pH is never above ~6.5 (daytime it’s in the 5.7 area). I’m currently stable at about 10ppm NO3 by weeks’ end (with 30% weekly w/c) and that is my target.

I use only RO/DI water. My micros are all DIY and I try to avoid chelates (including iron) since my UVS rips any chelated products apart within hours. I believe that all the metals in CSM+B are chelated. However, with my DIY auto-doser, I’m dosing throughout the day. Current daily trace dosings are: Fe (gluc): 0.1, Mn: .03, B: 0.02, Cu: 0.005, Mo: 0.0025, Zn: 0.02 and Ni: 0.0002.

The only weekly dosing I do now is Ca (CaCl+CaSO4, separately) and Mg, when I need it and Mg is sucked-up at a much greater rate than Ca (which rarely needs much other than baseline replacement from the w/c). I don’t quite understand why this is happening, but haven’t tried too hard to figure it out. GH ~ 3 dGH and dKH <1.

The top third of my Rotala Macrandra is bright red and grows rapidly in a large “V”-shaped mass. No significant algae issues in over a year with ~70 substrate PAR for 12-hours / day. Inert substrate.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Deanna
Thank you for your updates, they are always very informative. Now we have your trace element mix details, please see attachment, it is interesting to see what you have. 

The reason why Mg is taken faster and at a higher rate than Ca is because you are offering it at higher concentrations to your plants and it is a mobile element and therefore it can be moved and stored anywhere in the plant tissue. Ca is immobile and therefore limited in movement and storage capacity, it is just hanging there but still must be present for plants to function properly. 

Your trace element mix reveals higher Cu levels than average, can you explain why?


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> Dennis is at just over 200 PAR at the substrate, so high but not crazy high.
> 
> And in his journal he says that such high PAR is of little benefit to most tanks. IME, at some point light is subject to the law of diminishing returns.
> 
> Not to say it can't be done, but I see very few advocating 300 or 400 PAR at the substrate, as for the average tank = algae farm. And quickly.


I have seen you mention it several times, we agree, high par light magnifies any mistakes and imbalances and the growth rate after a certain point is only marginally increased. I was up at 130 par and I'd like to get back to that point at some point but I think its impossible without RODI in my case.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Edward said:


> The reason why Mg is taken faster and at a higher rate than Ca is because you are offering it at higher concentrations to your plants and it is a mobile element and therefore it can be moved and stored anywhere in the plant tissue. Ca is immobile and therefore limited in movement and storage capacity, it is just hanging there but still must be present for plants to function properly.


Didn't think that this would cause the heavy consumption. Ca is running at a steady 15ppm, yet I have to add about 6ppm Mg weekly, just to hold above 1-2ppm by weeks' end.



Edward said:


> Deanna
> Now we have your trace element mix details, please see attachment, it is interesting to see what you have.
> 
> Your trace element mix reveals higher Cu levels than average, can you explain why?


Those bar charts make it look heavier than it is. That 10x adjustment caught me off guard before I noticed it.

Cu is high mainly because I averaged a number of approaches (Tropica, Seachem, Hoagland and the 1965 study), but weighted Tropica heavily. I have been considering lowering Mn to .02, Cu to .002, Mo to .0015 and Ni to .0001 in my next batch, now that other variables have been stable a few months.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Deanna said:


> Cu is high mainly because I averaged a number of approaches (Tropica, Seachem, Hoagland and the 1965 study), but weighted Tropica heavily. I have been considering lowering Mn to .02, Cu to .002, Mo to .0015 and Ni to .0001 in my next batch, now that other variables have been stable a few months.


 Your next batch project.


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## jcoulter (Mar 12, 2018)

cl3537 said:


> I was up at 130 par and I'd like to get back to that point at some point but I think its impossible without RODI in my case.


Yea you're probably right


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Rotala wallichii
has never seen any dosed N nitrogen or P phosphorus in any form, *only fish waste*. 

Water column parameters are 4 ppm NO3, undetectable PO4, 30 ppm K, 20 – 35 ppm Ca, 5 – 8 ppm Mg, 1 dKH. Daily dose 0.01 ppm Fe(TE) EDTA+DTPA MicroMix by Plant-Prod distributed by GLA EDTA+DTPA MICROMIX and custom modified with Zn and Ni to Upgraded CSM+B / Trace Mix. Light source very intense, 350 PAR at the plant tops, 4 hours a day with additional viewing LED lights. Substrate inert.

Rotala wallichii


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Edward said:


> Your next batch project.


Are these charts 'normalized', e.g.; my doses are daily, but do the Tropica doses you show represent their dosing on a daily basis? When I went through my initial comparisons, the normalized daily dosing was much closer in Mn and Cu area, but I think my Fe was much higher.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Deanna said:


> Are these charts 'normalized', e.g.; my doses are daily, but do the Tropica doses you show represent their dosing on a daily basis? When I went through my initial comparisons, the normalized daily dosing was much closer in Mn and Cu area, but I think my Fe was much higher.


 This one?


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Edward said:


> This one?


I don’t see it. Just taking Tropica as an example:

They recommend a base starting point of 6ml each of Specialised and Premium per week for 50L. This results in a daily ppm dose of Mn: 0.01343, B: 0.00143, Cu: 0.00200, Mo: 0.00057 and Zn: 0.00057 (from Rotalabutterfly). 

Using iron as the index (as we like to do - I think incorrectly) and increasing iron to .1 ppm daily, this results in a Tropica daily ppm dosing of Mn: 0.0566, B: 0.0060, Cu: 0.0084, Mo: 0.0024 and Zn: 0.0024.

None of the above values match the chart. Where are we disconnected?


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

https://rotalabutterfly.com/nutrient-calculator.php
50 L
Tropica Plant Growth Specialized
Result of my dose
6 ml

ppm
0.0828 Fe
0.0468 Mn
0.0048 B
0.0072 Cu
0.0024 Mo
0.0024 Zn

All of the weekly above values match my chart when divided by 7 days. Where are we disconnected?


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Edward said:


> All of the weekly above values match my chart when divided by 7 days. Where are we disconnected?


It's in the doubling: I double those values. Tropica recommends the same dosing for both the Specialised and Premium products and, I assume, they mean for both to be used in a tank and have subsequently accounted for that in the duplicate micro dosing. I see in your chart that you indicate "or" as opposed to "and", regarding the two products. That's the disconnect.

So, the chart is daily and the other micros packages should be fine and, going back a few posts, yes: this more recent chart is the normalized one I was asking about.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

What worries me is your dosing 0.1 ppm Fe(TE) daily and doing 30 % weekly water changes. I would expect accumulation of trace elements to unkind levels.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Edward said:


> What worries me is your dosing 0.1 ppm Fe(TE) daily and doing 30 % weekly water changes. I would expect accumulation of trace elements to unkind levels.


They are safe levels (good long-term health), but I do intend reducing them each month and watching the response, as I think the traces are a little too heavy. Remember: these are mainly not chelated metals, but I worry about my substrate. you may recall that I've been on a year-long journey coming down from EI levels and have only recently felt comfortable with the overall macro reduction (N, P, K, Ca, Mg and S). Traces are next.

However, in case anyone doubts the potential for toxicity in traces, I can relate the following: several months ago, when I was playing with the timer on my autodoser, I accidentally double-dosed the daily amounts you see in my previous post for a week. The result was a sudden halt to growth and BBA covering the stems. New growth was badly stunted and older leaves were severely bent down at the tips. I wasn't sure that it wasn't the beginning of a tailspin. Who knows which, if not all, micros were the bad actors, but there was certainly a toxic and/or blocking of other nutrients effect. I was surprised at how rapidly this occurred.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Deanna said:


> Tropica recommends the same dosing for both the Specialised and Premium products


I never dosed both how did you draw the conclusion that they reccomend using both?


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

cl3537 said:


> I never dosed both how did you draw the conclusion that they reccomend using both?


You might be right. One contains N and P, the other doesn't. May be that they are saying either or, but not both - they don't say either way. Might be worth contacting them. 

When I first started looking at Tropica, I relied a lot on their testimonial section, where they show various tanks and parameters. In nearly all of them, they list both products being used in equal amounts.

Seachem recommends both the Flourish (comp) and then Trace to supplement the Flourish.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Edward said:


> For the light, I never had problems with high light intensity, 300 – 400 PAR no issues, thousands of PAR in upper areas no issues. What breaks the balance is duration, it may become too much accumulated light energy per day causing the problems.
> 
> 
> cl3537 said:
> ...


 Have you tried the stunning 200 PAR light running for a short period of time? It’s not crazy light as some think, it’s achievable. Start with three hours in the mid or the end of the day, the rest of the period low medium light. You need snails, do you have any? I love Red Ramshorn snails. High light systems have either snails and shrimps, or toxic fertilizer levels to keep periphyton dead. It will not work without it, plants must be crystal clean to have a direct unobstructed contact with water. 

When do you want to start?


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Edward said:


> Have you tried the stunning 200 PAR light running for a short period of time?


Yes and I get GDA really quickly on hardscape at anywhere close to those levels. This tank is not full of stems its not an appropriate case for high light.

Also I would cover my Anubias and Buces with Algae if I left that kind of intensity, and likely would never be able to get rid of the algae without cutting off months worth of growth.

I only run my light 4 hours a day as it is now. For viewing I run light at about 20 par(10%).



> I love Red Ramshorn snails


I have nerites, horned nerites, RCS and Amanos in the tank, Otos, and a nano pleco. None of them eat my GSA or fuzz algae on leaves I usually just have to cut off all the 'fuzzed' leaves luckily there aren't that many and they all were from a deficiency in the tank which I have corrected.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

cl3537 said:


> None of them eat my GSA or fuzz algae on leaves I usually just have to cut off all the 'fuzzed' leaves luckily there aren't that many and they all were from a deficiency in the tank which I have corrected.


I, too, like and have used red ramshorns effectively. Unfortunately or fortunately (depending upon if you’re a ramshorn in my tank), they all died out for lack of food. For algae on plants, I have found a way to utilize Oto’s and true SAE’s. They seem to like dead algae species that they wouldn’t normally touch when the algae is alive. The trick is killing this algae without killing the fish or going through the troublesome spot-treatment methods. 

To do this, I create an isolation room inside the tank, with an inverted clear container covering sections of plants, and having high circulation from a cheap little pump (wand and strainer removed from this little internal filter). Into this contained section of swirling water, I inject 7 ml / gallon of H2O2 with a commercial syringe and allow it to circulate for an hour. The opening of this ‘cone’ sits on the substrate and covers whichever section of the tank that I choose. After the hour, any non-decomposed H2O2 is diluted harmlessly into the rest of the tank when I remove the cone. Doing this protects the fauna from the effects of the H2O2 (and I have killed many a fish with H2O2 in years past).

The container I use has a 7” x 7” opening and is 9” high, but you can choose any size that you want for your tank. It will float (if it’s plastic), so it will have to be weighed down. I use four, 3.5 oz, fishing tackle weights. The syringe will also float out of the hole, so I cover the hole with one of the weights when I remove the syringe. No need to worry about H2O2 escaping through this hole, since the hole is too small to cause a significant loss.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Deanna said:


> I, too, like and have used red ramshorns effectively. Unfortunately or fortunately (depending upon if you’re a ramshorn in my tank), they all died out for lack of food.


 Too bad because the red ones are beautiful fluorescent bright red bodies and shells. When they are first introduced they get busy and clean up everything to perfection. But later when they have nothing left to eat they need to be fed. I give them frozen chopped spinach to keep them healthy and they look happy here in 5 pH and 20 ppm Ca water. 


> The trick is killing this algae without killing the fish or going through the troublesome spot-treatment methods.
> 
> To do this, I create an isolation room inside the tank, with an inverted clear container covering sections of plants, and having high circulation from a cheap little pump (wand and strainer removed from this little internal filter). Into this contained section of swirling water, I inject 7 ml / gallon of H2O2 with a commercial syringe and allow it to circulate for an hour. The opening of this ‘cone’ sits on the substrate and covers whichever section of the tank that I choose. After the hour, any non-decomposed H2O2 is diluted harmlessly into the rest of the tank when I remove the cone. Doing this protects the fauna from the effects of the H2O2 (and I have killed many a fish with H2O2 in years past).
> 
> The container I use has a 7” x 7” opening and is 9” high, but you can choose any size that you want for your tank. It will float (if it’s plastic), so it will have to be weighed down. I use four, 3.5 oz, fishing tackle weights. The syringe will also float out of the hole, so I cover the hole with one of the weights when I remove the syringe. No need to worry about H2O2 escaping through this hole, since the hole is too small to cause a significant loss.


Do you have any pictures? It sounds interesting.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Deanna said:


> I, too, like and have used red ramshorns effectively. Unfortunately or fortunately (depending upon if you’re a ramshorn in my tank), they all died out for lack of food. For algae on plants, I have found a way to utilize Oto’s and true SAE’s. They seem to like dead algae species that they wouldn’t normally touch when the algae is alive. The trick is killing this algae without killing the fish or going through the troublesome spot-treatment methods. [
> 
> To do this, I create an isolation room inside the tank, with an inverted clear container covering sections of plants, and having high circulation from a cheap little pump (wand and strainer removed from this little internal filter). Into this contained section of swirling water, I inject 7 ml / gallon of H2O2 with a commercial syringe and allow it to circulate for an hour. The opening of this ‘cone’ sits on the substrate and covers whichever section of the tank that I choose. After the hour, any non-decomposed H2O2 is diluted harmlessly into the rest of the tank when I remove the cone. Doing this protects the fauna from the effects of the H2O2 (and I have killed many a fish with H2O2 in years past).
> 
> The container I use has a 7” x 7” opening and is 9” high, but you can choose any size that you want for your tank. It will float (if it’s plastic), so it will have to be weighed down. I use four, 3.5 oz, fishing tackle weights. The syringe will also float out of the hole, so I cover the hole with one of the weights when I remove the syringe. No need to worry about H2O2 escaping through this hole, since the hole is too small to cause a significant loss.


Would you happen to have a photo? not sure how you circulate under the container.
7ml/Gallon H2O2 I guess it doesn't bother the plants(like Buces and Anubias) only the algae(?).

I thought about just removing any plants with fuzz on them into a seperate 5 gallon bucket and treating them for a few days with Excel then returning them to my scape.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Edward said:


> Do you have any pictures? It sounds interesting.





cl3537 said:


> Would you happen to have a photo?


Here are the components:

The pump: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B007KBKX54/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Pull the wand and strainer off and all you are left with is the little pump in the center. Attach that (with the suction cups) near the top and inside the container so that the output is parallel to the substrate, creating a vortex that extends down to the substrate.

The container I use: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D6KVPLB/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Drill a tiny hole in the top of the container for the syringe needle to enter.

The syringe: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DXPRTHG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The H2O2: that's a secret.



cl3537 said:


> I guess it doesn't bother the plants(like Buces and Anubias) only the algae(?).


It certainly bothers the algae, but I have no Buce or Anubias. I'm sure the algae would be destroyed at lower dosing, but I just go for the overkill.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Deanna said:


> Here are the components:
> 
> The pump: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B007KBKX54/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> ...


 Now the Large Hadron Collider particle accelerator superconducting magnets design details secrets are out.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Edward said:


> Now the Large Hadron Collider particle accelerator superconducting magnets design details secrets are out.


Let's keep it cogent: it is "*The Algae Vortex Cone of Death*"


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## fitos100 (Dec 8, 2018)

So many answers. thanks very much.
First of all the tank is running for two years now but I didn't have experience before with planted tank. I try the EI because it's not easy to find the deficiencys if you are rookie. 
My major objective are the plants but I can't leave with out discus. I have two small discus in the tank and I don't feed so much.

1. About the light my T5 are HO with reflectors So we assuming I have 64 par. Definitely I have more than 0.5 W per liter. 
I turn for half our the two of them, 7 hours all of them and another half our at the end, the two.

2. As for the micro I was dose 0.35 with different iron mixture, so I don't raise the rest micros. I changed last week with
Fe =0.35
Mn = 0.09
B= 0.062
Zn=0.018
Cu=0.0044

3. My soil is the tropica soil. ( I m not sure if this soil stores fertilizers)
Yesterday I did some test before my water change. 
NO3 around 35 ppm
PO4 almost 2 ppm
Fe around 0.2 ppm
K around 25 ppm
So today I believe I will have less than half of these measures. Today I add micros and tomorrow until I will add macros my PO4 will be around 0.3 ppm and my NO3 around 10 ppm.
The strange is the potassium which strays always high. It looks like I don't have consumption of K.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

fitos100
Discus fish must be fed regularly and a lot to keep them healthy, no way around it. My question is your tap has 120 ppm Mg? Really? That would be expensive mineral water. You can’t trust water like that. Since you are doing 50% weekly water changes use 100% RO and add minerals to it. 

Per new added 150 L, 100% RO water:
20 ppm Ca, 13 grams CaSO4.2H2O
5 ppm Mg, 8 grams MgSO4.7H2O
2 dKH, 9 grams NaHCO3 baking soda
30 ppm K, 10 grams K2SO4
8 ppm NO3, 2 grams KNO3 (optional due to discus waste)
1 ppm PO4, 0.25 grams KH2PO4 (optional due to discus waste)

This way you don’t have to worry about anything else than trace elements mix. The CSM+B package looks suspicious, it’s probably home made in the store. You could try to replace it with some commercial trace element mix for some time and see if plants improve. What do you have available over there?


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## fitos100 (Dec 8, 2018)

Actually my Mg is 33 ppm from tap. I started to make my change water with Mg=12, Ca =35 and KH=2.
As for my traces I have Mn,Zn,B,Cu extra so I will check if I need to add some.
After many tests I came with o conclusion. 
I add PO4= 4.5 ppm per week. Just before my water change I have 2= ppm in my tank. The next day morning after the water change I have 0.5= ppm of PO4. So with my calculations I must have 0.5= ppm consumption with 1 =ppm of PO4 removed with water change. 
I believe most of the PO4 is going to my soil right??
The same is goes with Fe. I add 0.35 ppm per week. I have 0.2 ppm before water change and 0.05 after water change. So I have 7 × 0.033 ppm per week consumption equals 0.231 ppm.
I remove with water change 0.117 ppm.
So I think I must raise a little bit my PO4 and my Fe because If miss a dose i will have a problem.


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## fitos100 (Dec 8, 2018)

New post. The last days I start to believe is not a deficiency problem from ferts but from the light.
My rotala looks more healthy from the middle and up, so maybe is the lights after all. I will wait a few days and post some photos.


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