# Help me get plants from decent to good (or better)



## OpinionUnFiltered (Mar 12, 2019)

Hi @Seattle_Aquarist, I was hoping you’d reply. 🙂 We’ve spoken on that other forum, about your low tech hc japan experiment. 🙂
Here’s what I can tell you about the liquid fert I use:
[copied from seller’s page on another forum (not FL)]. 

“After testing them in my personal tanks and in other hobbyists with packaged fertilizers like Tropica and Seachem, these are what I noticed: - More concentrated. 
- No unnecessary marketing additives (ex. amino acids, phytohormones, etc). 
- Much better priced per volume and refillable at a lower cost.

Complete Nutrition [seller’s name for his product] - Formula contains both NPK and micros, this personal mix contains more potassium and slightly less micros [than a different micros+K mix]. No ammonium is present. This is a complete fertilization regime for tanks that contain more flora then fauna, or higher lighting tanks. Also has trace amounts of vitamins to improve fauna immune systems and overall health.”


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @OpinionUnFiltered,

I was working with someone on FL from the Toronto area that was also using a "local hobbyist" macro and micro; the post above indicates the nutrients that were in it.

Are you doing weekly water changes? How much? How often?

I see green spot algae on the Anubias leaves, does it also occur on other plants, glass, hardscape?


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## OpinionUnFiltered (Mar 12, 2019)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @*OpinionUnFiltered*,
> 
> I was working with someone on FL from the Toronto area that was also using a "local hobbyist" macro and micro; the post above indicates the nutrients that were in it.
> 
> ...



Well, I've never seen his exact recipe, but it's an all in one mix, and the details you provided above look like separate dosing for macros vs micros. So pretty sure it's not the same supplier. I'm open to changing methods, if that's where this goes.



Yes gsa on the anubias, it also appears on older sword leaves (grows more like a mat, or more evenly covering leaf surface), and on older dwarf sag leaves, but not as bad or as obvious as the anubias. There is a tiny bit of gsa on the bronze crypt, but it's hard to see, and I don't think it's heavy/dense. I rarely see gsa on the glass, as in almost never. And not on wood either. 



I change 30% weekly. Religiously. With a sand substrate I don't have to vac often, but I do when it's required. As part of the weekly change.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @OpinionUnFiltered,

OK, I took some of your photos, downloaded them, enhanced them, added arrows and numbers.....here they are.









The photo above shows all three (3) of the symptoms that I saw in your photos. The #1 Arrow is pointing to spots of necrosis (dead tissue) on the older leaves of the sword plant - and indication of insufficient potassium (K). The #2 arrow points to interveinal chlorosis (yellow areas between green leaf veins) also on the older leaves, this is a symptom of insufficient magnesium (Mg). The #3 arrow points to the green spot algae (GSA) on the older leaves of the sword plant which could indicate insufficient phosphorus (P).









The photo above shows the Cryptocoryne wendtii. Notice how the leaf margins are curled under and also the 'puckering' that is occurring at the arrow? Both of these are a symptoms of insufficient magnesium (Mg).









The last photo above shows arrow #3 pointing at excellent examples of GSA but more importantly it shows two leaves of anubias both labeled #2. The #2 arrow on the right is a newer leaf showing little to no signs of interveinal chlorosis while arrow #2 on the left shows the interveinal chlorosis starting to develop. I wanted to see a newer leaf on the anubias to verify that the interveinal chlorosis was not a result of insufficient iron which shows up on new / newer leaves.

#1.


> D. Leaf chlorosis is not the dominant symptom. Symptoms appear on older leaves at base of plant.
> 
> 2. Necrotic spots develop on older leaves
> 
> ...


#2


> II. Symptoms do not appear first or most severely on youngest leaves: Effect general on whole plant or localized on older, lower leaves.
> 
> C. Interveinal chlorosis. Interveinal chlorosis first appears on oldest leaves.
> 
> ...


#3


> II. Symptoms do not appear first or most severely on youngest leaves: Effect general on whole plant or localized on older, lower leaves.
> 
> D. Leaf chlorosis is not the dominant symptom. Symptoms appear on older leaves at base of plant.
> 
> ...


As for suggestions on how to resolve these issues I suggested increasing the dGH by 2.0 degrees by adding Seachem Equilibrium which contains potassium, magnesium, calcium, manganese, and iron. Do an initial dose of 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons. Then, when you do weekly water changes add 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons of new water added. 

Now the hard part.......waiting! The existing leaves will not change, and may actually continue to decline. Watch the new leaves after you start dosing. As the new leaves mature they should remain straighter, greener, and not develop the spots of necrosis nor the interveinal chlorosis. As for the phosphorus issue I suspect the "homemade" Flourish Comprehensive-like fertilizer. Flourish Comprehensive has very little phosphorus (or other macro-nutrients) btw. I suggest switching to nilocG.com Thrive C which is for tanks with a pH greater than 6.8. Chances are when you switch to Thrive C you will be able to discontinue the Flourish Nitrogen. Questions, just ask! -Roy


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## OpinionUnFiltered (Mar 12, 2019)

@Seattle_Aquarist, I can't tell you how much I appreciate the time you've put into your reply. I have a terrestrial hort background, so your details concerning new vs old growth (ie nutrients that are mobile vs not), chlorosis, specific nutrients, and waiting for results are all well received. And I have equilibrium on hand, so will start that with my next water change. 
I'm surprised you recommend the ThriveC. As I understand from other reading, it's less concentrated than normal Thrive, and has glut. Have I got that right? Do you think it's the better choice for my setup? 
Can you suggest how many weeks the 500mL size of ThriveC would last me, on a 33gal tank?
Would it be worth going to dry mixes? Is there still an all in one option with dry mixes? 
Thx again, so very much!!


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

OpinionUnFiltered said:


> @Seattle_Aquarist, I can't tell you how much I appreciate the time you've put into your reply. I have a terrestrial hort background, so your details concerning new vs old growth (ie nutrients that are mobile vs not), chlorosis, specific nutrients, and waiting for results are all well received. And I have equilibrium on hand, so will start that with my next water change.
> I'm surprised you recommend the ThriveC. As I understand from other reading, it's less concentrated than normal Thrive, and has glut. Have I got that right? Do you think it's the better choice for my setup?
> Can you suggest how many weeks the 500mL size of ThriveC would last me, on a 33gal tank?
> Would it be worth going to dry mixes? Is there still an all in one option with dry mixes?
> Thx again, so very much!!


Hi @OpinionUnFiltered,

Your background in Hort will serve you well in this hobby. Sometimes I hesitate to talk about mobile vs non-mobile nutrients with newer forum members. I recommended the Thrive C because of the DTPA iron, which is more readily available to plants in applications where the pH > 6.8. The regular Thrive is roughly twice as strong as Thrive C however it uses both ETDA iron chelate and DEPA iron chelate. You can certainly go with the regular Thrive however watch for signs of iron deficiency. In theory they both dose for 2500 gallons. According to the nilocG.com website Thrive C "It also contains a non-glut based source of bio-available carbon which provides 2-3x the amount of other carbon supplements."

Dry ferts are fine, I've used them for years because I have 5 planted tanks (175 gallons total) and liquid ferts started to 'break the bank' when I started up my 2nd tank.


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## OpinionUnFiltered (Mar 12, 2019)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @*OpinionUnFiltered*,
> 
> Your background in Hort will serve you well in this hobby. Sometimes I hesitate to talk about mobile vs non-mobile nutrients with newer forum members. I recommended the Thrive C because of the DTPA iron, which is more readily available to plants in applications where the pH > 6.8. The regular Thrive is roughly twice as strong as Thrive C however it uses both ETDA iron chelate and DEPA iron chelate. You can certainly go with the regular Thrive however watch for signs of iron deficiency. In theory they both dose for 2500 gallons. According to the nilocG.com website Thrive C "It also contains a non-glut based source of bio-available carbon which provides 2-3x the amount of other carbon supplements."
> 
> Dry ferts are fine, I've used them for years because I have 5 planted tanks (175 gallons total) and liquid ferts started to 'break the bank' when I started up my 2nd tank.



Okay, thanks (again!).

1. Start dosing Equilibrium @ 1tsp/10gal. So 3 tsp initial dose in my 33 gallon (less a bit for substrate etc), then 1tsp per week with my 10gal changes. 

2. Observe.
3. Start looking for the best rates on ThriveC (I hear and accept your arguments in favour of this over regular). Not likely to be acquired in the short term - I have quite a few aquarium projects "on the go" and am trying to save where I can. But I'll get some before my current batch of liquid runs out.


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## redneck joe (Mar 13, 2019)

Great thread, even for us stupid people. Pics are awesome.


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## OpinionUnFiltered (Mar 12, 2019)

Hey @Seattle_Aquarist. 
So it’s happened again. My AR mini were recovering, slowly. Last night I noticed they have been eaten (?) again. Trying to figure this out. 
In my first post, there are 2 pics of the minis; in one they are taller, but massively shredded, in the other they are shorter, with new leaves at the top. I didn’t pull any of them up, but cut them to 1” or so, which is where the regrowth started. I’ve attached a 3rd pic of these from just last night. P
I’m looking at three possibilities regarding what’s going on, I would appreciate any opinion or suggestion you can offer.
1. Mini ramshorn snails. I have a decent population of these, you can see examples on the sword pics in first thread. 
2. Amanos. About a dozen in this tank. However, given that the AR mini leaves were in reasonably good condition immediately prior to my noticing they had been torn up again, I don’t think I’m Amanos have the tools to do this kind of damage.
3. Something entirely flora related, with no fauna component. I don’t have any specific ideas here, just putting it out as a possibility.
Thx!!


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

OpinionUnFiltered said:


> Hey @Seattle_Aquarist.
> So it’s happened again. My AR mini were recovering, slowly. Last night I noticed they have been eaten (?) again. Trying to figure this out.
> In my first post, there are 2 pics of the minis; in one they are taller, but massively shredded, in the other they are shorter, with new leaves at the top. I didn’t pull any of them up, but cut them to 1” or so, which is where the regrowth started. I’ve attached a 3rd pic of these from just last night. P
> I’m looking at three possibilities regarding what’s going on, I would appreciate any opinion or suggestion you can offer.
> ...


Hi OpinionUnFiltered,

The leaves may have looked good but how about the stems? When there is a lack of magnesium it is not uncommon for stems to develop fungus issues. I've had stems become soft and mushy; not necessarily the whole stem, sometimes just sections. Eventually that part of the stem separates and what remains is shorter. When I look around for the top parts of the stems, sometimes with very healthy looking leaves, I find them elsewhere in the tank.


> Stems are weak, subject to fungus infection, usually leaves drop prematurely.


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## OpinionUnFiltered (Mar 12, 2019)

I didn’t know that about Mg issues. One more tid-bit in my tool chest. 🙂
But with my AR minis I’m reasonably sure the leaves are coming apart while the stems are and remain intact. I see fragments of the broken/torn/shredded leaves floating about the tank, but not the stems. 
Do you think ongoing nutrient issues could make the leaves either more attractive to, or less well defended from, the mini snails?


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @OpinionUnFiltered,

I don't keep shrimp, and none of my 5 tanks have snails however when I did have snails years ago I never had them shred a leaf. Thin leaves are also a symptom of insufficient Mg.


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## OpinionUnFiltered (Mar 12, 2019)

Alright, so hopefully fixing this Mg issue will help protect the next gen of leaves. 
I’ll see how the overall recovery goes, and keep you (and other readers) posted. 
Thx again 🙂


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## gridironking81 (Apr 18, 2019)

I'm fairly new to the planted tank hobby (been keeping fish for years, even tried my hand at a saltwater tank, but never a planted tank) so take my thoughts with a grain of salt. I noticed your inhabitants include an SAE. I recently set up my first planted tank and planted some glossostigma. The glossostigma seemed to be in fairly poor health (it was browning) when I bought it, but it was the last cup of it and I got them to discount it since it was browning. I for sure thought I could bring these guys back to life. Anyhow, within the first day or two after planting I noticed my SAE munching on the small leaves of the glossostigma, leaving just stems with nibbled off leaves. I only observed him doing this during moonlight hours though, never during daylight. During daylight he's always grazing away at algae or an algae tab. So just a thought, but maybe see if your SAE is having a feast during the evening before he goes to rest.


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## OpinionUnFiltered (Mar 12, 2019)

@gridironking81 that is worth considering, thanks. I’ll keep an eye on it. I have a smaller planted tank that runs the same parameters, if this continues I may remove the SAE to that tank as an experiment, to see if that gets the AR mini back on track.


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