# Shrimp don't need plants?



## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

> Shrimp do not need plants. In fact, many shrimp come from habitats where are no plants at all. Plants can actually adversely affect a shrimp tank. Especially fast growing plants compete with microorganisms for nutrients and light (i.e. they shade them out) and also compete with filter bacteria, eliminating them in the worst case scenario. A plantless tank with leaf litter on the bottom is best for shrimp. If you absolutely must use plants, use extremely slow growers such as java fern. (1)


_*(1) Petshrimp.com Faq *_

Sacrilege! :biggrin: That said, has anybody any observations re: this statement? I certainly haven't noticed my cherries slowing down, but I must admit that they're an adjunct to the tank, since both of my tanks also have fish that are known shrimp predators (both have gouramis, and the larger has loaches as well.)


----------



## sandiegoryu (Feb 15, 2006)

LOL. 

Shrimp are gonners because of the plants helping to keep their water quality superb! Oh no! My millions of shrimp! Help them from the my fast growing plants! AAAHH!!! NOOO! The shrimp are feeding on the microorganisms ON my plants!!! No more microorganisms? That means my plants will do all the filteration for me anyway!!

That is full of bullsh*t. Plants can even completely skip cylcing, the worst enemy to shrimp.

From this moment on I won't listen to petshrimp.com... No plants is like no filters... I have a 10 gallon with lots of "weed" plants and I haven't done a water change since, I dunno when, and shrimp are happy fish are happy plants are happy. NO ALGAE. Take out plants, BOOM all hell breaks loose. I would do that just to prove that this is bullsh*t


----------



## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

RoseHawke said:


> _*(1) Petshrimp.com Faq *_
> 
> Sacrilege! :biggrin: That said, has anybody any observations re: this statement? I certainly haven't noticed my cherries slowing down, but I must admit that they're an adjunct to the tank, since both of my tanks also have fish that are known shrimp predators (both have gouramis, and the larger has loaches as well.)


From everyone's FAVORITE PERSON! Mustafa Ucozler!!*claps* This guy is crazy I got banned in two days defending our articles... because he said 100+ shrimp (cherries) in a 10g tank is inhumane and just plane wrong:iamwithst . The guy likes his shrimp all visible, I can see that.... but don't go around posting BS FAQ!

Alright lets try not to bash any more.....:icon_wink :iamwithst :iamwithst :iamwithst 

Lets just all not talk about this sight anymore OK?roud: 

Thanks!

- Andrew

For a good laugh also read, ->



> 5. How much should I feed my shrimp?
> 
> You should only feed enough food that can be consumed within 5-10 minutes at the most. Never leave food in the tank for several hours and/or overnight. Overfeeding, and the resulting water parameter problems, is one of the main causes for "sudden" shrimp deaths, which can wipe out your entire population.


----------



## YuccaPatrol (Mar 2, 2006)

I keep shrimp in a variety of tanks ranging from a heavily planted one to one which only has a large amount of leaf litter covering the substrate. 

I have the highest population density and best survival rate for young shrimp in the tank without plants.

I initially started keeping shrimp in a newly planted tank. Over the course of a year, the plants in the tank became incredibly dense and I noticed that my shrimp population was shrinking and very few babies were surviving very long.

My experience matches the article being criticized here. Of course, my water was perfectly clean with no nitrates to be found because the plants were taking them all in. As sandiegoryu explained, plants are much better at competing for the same resources that algae and other micro-organisms need, and their ability to remove nutrients from the water cannot be matched by the organisms which shrimp prefer to feed upon.

In short, if you want maximum population density for the purpose of breeding shrimp, then an excess of plants will limit your population. If you want a pretty planted tank that includes shrimp, then by all means keep your tank as heavily planted as you like. The tanks I keep for breeding have minimal plants, the tanks I keep pretty for my wife to look at have more plants and a bit fewer shrimp.

RoseHawke, we don't live too far away from each other. If you would like to come over and see for yourself, I'd be happy to show you my "fish" room.


----------



## frugalfish (Apr 21, 2005)

I have experience with your question on that statement and yes it has merit. 

If you look up reasearch that has been done on many crays and shrimp you will find that they tend to live in areas that are mostly made up of leaf litter and other such decaying matter. A lot of ignorance is out there that shrimp merely feed on algae and that their diet can be enhanced by specialty shrimp foods or various fish foods. I personally have no problems with feeding such foods and have no opinion on their effect. Sure shrimp eat some algae, but they also are feeding on the microorganisms and biofilms that exists in and around the algae. Detritus (rotting matter) is an important element to a shrimp diet. All the microorganisms that are associated with it are a key food to shrimp and that is the reason for adding leaf litter to the aquarium. 

Another thing to remember is that all shrimp just as all fish are not all the same. Certain species are more sensitive and require specific parameters in order to thrive...ie look at all the questions asked about breeding Crystal Reds. On the other hand Cherry shrimp are like guppies and are quite easy to breed.

There is nothing wrong with having plants with shrimp. I have heavily planted tanks with shrimp that are doing great and I have bare tanks with nothing more than leaf litter and a dusting of gravel with shrimp doing great. So why would I have a tank with no plants? Because I've seen an improvement in survival rates and growth rates with the shrimp in the no plant tanks. I also find the shrimp in these tanks not needing feedings nearly as much as with the ones in my planted tanks. I'm experimenting still, but so far the results have been very clear...unplanted has it's advantages.

Here's a little experient if you want to try. Many people cover the intakes to their canister filters to prevent shrimp from being sucked up. Tell ya what...let them get sucked up. The fastest growing shrimp I have had are the ones that grew up in the dark feasting on all the waste of my Eheim. No plants, no light, just tons of decaying matter and microorganisms for the little buggers to gorge themselves on. 

Hope this helped.


----------



## frugalfish (Apr 21, 2005)

> From this moment on I won't listen to petshrimp.com... No plants is like no filters... I have a 10 gallon with lots of "weed" plants and I haven't done a water change since, I dunno when, and shrimp are happy fish are happy plants are happy. NO ALGAE. Take out plants, BOOM all hell breaks loose. I would do that just to prove that this is bullsh*t


Where did the article or anywhere on PetShrimp.com state that filtration was unnecessary? Of course filtration is needed. If you have a tank that is heavily planted and then suddenly remove all the plants of course there will be a spike in nitrous wastes due to the fact that the filter can't cope with the excess waste because of the competition the plants created with the microorganisms in the filter. But if the plants are not there is the first place all the nitrous waste is taking care of by the filtration system which has created enough microorganisms to take care of it. Your point is not valid.


----------



## sandiegoryu (Feb 15, 2006)

oops. Maybe I rushed too fast to say that. Sorry. Forgive my foolishness. I have learned. I guess shrimp do better without plants. So I guess if I get a shrimp only tank someday I would be shrimp only, and only shrimp. And sorry for saying that this is all bull. I guess it's not. Hmmm... This is very interesting. I've always thought that plants are the shrimp's best friend, but I guess it is good if you are a horrible aquarist who does not do maintenance to their tanks which in turn will raise nitrates.

I feel stupid now.


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Guess I gotta start pulling plants in my shrimp-only tank.


----------



## YuccaPatrol (Mar 2, 2006)

You can still have plants in your shrimp-only tanks, but you'll have more shrimp and more babies surviving if you choose slow growing plants. Fill a tank with Java Fern and Anubias and you'll have a very attractive planted tank that is still very shrimp-friendly. 

It is a matter of balancing your tank to suit your taste and intentions.


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

YuccaPatrol said:


> You can still have plants in your shrimp-only tanks, but you'll have more shrimp and more babies surviving if you choose slow growing plants. Fill a tank with Java Fern and Anubias and you'll have a very attractive planted tank that is still very shrimp-friendly.
> 
> It is a matter of balancing your tank to suit your taste and intentions.


Oh man, I have R. rotifundolia, anacharis, water sprite, taiwan moss, and some H. polysperma in there. Only the Taiwan moss could be classified as slow growing!


----------



## Matteo_Italy (Aug 11, 2006)

mustafa is a stupid person for me, i was banned in his forum because i "broke" the "golden rules" of his faboulous forum.....(i asked for a site were i could see a sponge filter and how does it works)
In that forum i see that the 90% of tanks are horrible, without plants.....plants are NECESSARY for a good living environment and to provide a good quality water. Shrimps eat both the microorg and the fodd that we provide them..

I cannot understand a tank without plants, it is unstable. The only "plantless tank" possible for me is a malawi or tanganica, only for the reason because the fishes eat plants.

Anyway, i dont think that we want to obtain the 100% of the births from each shrimps, even if we obtain a 50% is ok, we dont have to sell them (i suppose)...The thing if different if somone works as a breeder so for him a 100% is better than 50% of survive...

ciao


----------



## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

Hmmm, this is all very interesting. If I ever really want to get into shrimp rearing, I'll certainly take all of this into account. I might set up a couple small tanks (2.5 or 5 gallons) in the den someday as "mostly" plantless shrimp tanks (anubias would be nice) just to see how they do.


----------



## frugalfish (Apr 21, 2005)

> In that forum i see that the 90% of tanks are horrible, without plants.....plants are NECESSARY for a good living environment and to provide a good quality water. Shrimps eat both the microorg and the fodd that we provide them..
> 
> I cannot understand a tank without plants, it is unstable. The only "plantless tank" possible for me is a malawi or tanganica, only for the reason because the fishes eat plants.


Ummmm...you just contradicted yourself with these statements. If plants are so NECESSARY to create a stable environment how is it that African Cichlids can be so successfully kept and bred in tanks void of plants? Maybe it has something to do with proper filtration, stocking, water changes, feeding, etc. 




> Anyway, i dont think that we want to obtain the 100% of the births from each shrimps, even if we obtain a 50% is ok, we dont have to sell them (i suppose)...The thing if different if somone works as a breeder so for him a 100% is better than 50% of survive...


Exactly. For those that are casual shrimp keepers and are happy with obtaining lower survival rates this type of set-up is not for them, but for the more serious hobbyist it is. The question isn't about aesthestics, it's about does this really work.


----------



## frugalfish (Apr 21, 2005)

For all of you out there that share hatred for Mustafa and his site, it would be nice if you could control your anger and not inject it into every and any post that mentions something from his site, etc. If you have such a need to vent perhaps you could just start a separate thread. To just come out and make vicious and ignorant statements only shows your own faults and does nothing to further the shrimp hobby or anything else for that matter.


----------



## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

on a more serious note maybe there is something more behind this... It's just ahh I really don't like this guy sorry. I think the other thing you need to remember is feeding and things like snails,, snails= infuensa (spelling?) and that help, My tanks aren't full of fast growers only things like moss. I feed pleanty and always have newly collected mosses for the shrimp to clean and have fun with. Artificial foods are a must along with other things like veggies! 

I personally can say, no plants aren't a 'must' but they DO help. They give hiding spots for baby shrimp, I would venture to say that moss has lots of things growing on it like leaves, and with enough flake and other plant matter you could keep more food in there for the shrimp. 

I think when I redo my 55g, It will have a leaflitter section and we will see what happens:icon_cool 

- Andrew


----------



## AlGee (Sep 7, 2006)

interesting debate :thumbsup:


----------



## AnneRiceBowl (May 18, 2006)

Fish Newb, I think the word you were looking for was "infusoria".

This is also questionable for me (no plants in the shrimp breeding tank.) I remember a few months ago when I had posted on there that one of my Singapore shrimp had a fungus on its exoskeleton. I had just moved it from a disgusting tank of mine that I was breaking down. When I moved it into my 30 gallon planted tank that had IALs as leaf litter with some driftwood in the tank (I had explained ALL of that in my post), that it was immediately blamed on the plants, leaves, and driftwood. Several members on that forum said that shrimp should never be housed with decaying organic matter. 

Maybe a few things have changed since that post that I made, but seems contradictive to me.


----------



## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

AnneRiceBowl said:


> Fish Newb, I think the word you were looking for was "infusoria".
> 
> This is also questionable for me (no plants in the shrimp breeding tank.) I remember a few months ago when I had posted on there that one of my Singapore shrimp had a fungus on its exoskeleton. I had just moved it from a disgusting tank of mine that I was breaking down. When I moved it into my 30 gallon planted tank that had IALs as leaf litter with some driftwood in the tank (I had explained ALL of that in my post), that it was immediately blamed on the plants, leaves, and driftwood. Several members on that forum said that shrimp should never be housed with decaying organic matter.
> 
> Maybe a few things have changed since that post that I made, but seems contradictive to me.


Well the other thing is he is talking about dwarf algea eating shrimp, not fan shrimp. 

And yes I believe that was the word I was looking for.

- Andrew


----------



## frugalfish (Apr 21, 2005)

> This is also questionable for me (no plants in the shrimp breeding tank.) I remember a few months ago when I had posted on there that one of my Singapore shrimp had a fungus on its exoskeleton. I had just moved it from a disgusting tank of mine that I was breaking down. When I moved it into my 30 gallon planted tank that had IALs as leaf litter with some driftwood in the tank (I had explained ALL of that in my post), that it was immediately blamed on the plants, leaves, and driftwood. Several members on that forum said that shrimp should never be housed with decaying organic matter.


Just got done reading that thread on the other site concerning your Singapore shrimp. The problem you had was that the tank had TOO much organic matter. Remember a dirty filter, too much organic matter/waste, and poor water quality will cause problems, the key is balance, be it a planted or non-planted tank. Other factors with "fan" shrimp are that they come from fast moving water systems where organics do not accumulate. These shrimp are designed to comb the water column for food rather than picking at decaying matter. Although they will sweep surfaces for food if the water column is lacking, they clearly prefer to find a nice spot to sit in the current and fan all day and night. Again not all shrimp are the same. Even though other shrimp are designed to pick at and forage among things for food they too can become victims of disease if the environment is a poor one. So from what I read in that thread I don't believe there was any contradiction concerning your shrimp.

Also I would like to mention that although leaves can be beneficial not all leaves are the same. Many can give off tannins and acids that can change the water chemistry and some shrimp may not like it, same goes for driftwood. Although driftwood even when well aged can still give off tannins etc., leaves tend to stop leeching after being soaked for some time.


----------



## AnneRiceBowl (May 18, 2006)

Maybe I am still not explaining it clearly. The shrimp had the fungus BEFORE I moved it into the tank with plants and IALs. The tank that it was in when it developed the fungus only had gravel and one or 2 plastic plants in it and was grossly overstocked (which yes, I realize it had too much organic wasts in the form of ammonia). I did not realize that they had the fungus until I put them in the tank with "too much" organic material that had (and still has) bright light. It took me all of 30 seconds to see the fungus after I put them into the tank.

Any way, they all lived and are healthy, haven't had fungus since, and I am attempting to raise their larvae. 

And I get it now after re-reading it all. =P


----------



## mrbelvedere (Nov 15, 2005)

frugalfish said:


> For all of you out there that share hatred for Mustafa and his site, it would be nice if you could control your anger and not inject it into every and any post that mentions something from his site, etc. If you have such a need to vent perhaps you could just start a separate thread. To just come out and make vicious and ignorant statements only shows your own faults and does nothing to further the shrimp hobby or anything else for that matter.


Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. While some of his opinions may be false, he certainly knows more about shrimp than almost anyone here, and probably has more experience than many of us combined.

It is his forum. He owns it. Let him have it, and run it how he pleases. 

Here are a couple things I do not agree with:

1. Fertilizer doesn't kill shrimp. I'm sure high doses will. There is a debate as to whether Plantex CSM+B will kill them, due to copper I believe. No matter, I use Fluorish Comprehensive for my micros, and I dose EI. Shrimp breed like crazy. Two species, actually.

2. The whole shrimp need plants/shrimp don't need plants. I think it is rather foolish. I've seen amazing crystal red shrimp in lush, overgrown tanks with heavy fertilizer and the CO2 cranked. I've also seen shrimp bred in tanks with only a thin layer of sand and some leaves. 

3. Food needs to be eaten in 5-10 minutes. I throw an algae wafer in there and it's a frenzy for like 2 hours. It's an 1/2 of an algae wafer, it win't do much to the water chemistry.


----------



## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

mrbelvedere said:


> *Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. While some of his opinions may be false, he certainly knows more about shrimp than almost anyone here, and probably has more experience than many of us combined.
> *
> It is his forum. He owns it. Let him have it, and run it how he pleases.


Thats the thing I don't like about him. He is so I know everything, but can't discuss why the things he does is right. Sometimes I wish I could talk to him like we can talk here and learn his info, but the way he is it is impossible for me at least.

We do allow him to run it as he pleases but we can also let people know about the negative aspecs. I would for every forum.... hmm what is negative about planted tank..... :icon_conf nothing?

- Andrew


----------



## AnneRiceBowl (May 18, 2006)

LOL...It took me awhile to get the "feel" of this forum. I felt a bit intimated by some of the members here--I still am a bit.


----------



## frugalfish (Apr 21, 2005)

> 1. Fertilizer doesn't kill shrimp. I'm sure high doses will. There is a debate as to whether Plantex CSM+B will kill them, due to copper I believe. No matter, I use Fluorish Comprehensive for my micros, and I dose EI. Shrimp breed like crazy. Two species, actually.


I have no disagreement with that.



> 2. The whole shrimp need plants/shrimp don't need plants. I think it is rather foolish. I've seen amazing crystal red shrimp in lush, overgrown tanks with heavy fertilizer and the CO2 cranked. I've also seen shrimp bred in tanks with only a thin layer of sand and some leaves.


Saying it's foolish is a little harsh IMO. I will however say that this approach should probably be reserved for a more advanced shrimp keeper than a novice. Although I have found encouraging results doing the non-plant thing I still consider it to be in it's experimental stages.



> 3. Food needs to be eaten in 5-10 minutes. I throw an algae wafer in there and it's a frenzy for like 2 hours. It's an 1/2 of an algae wafer, it win't do much to the water chemistry.


Here I just think this is good advice for the beginner. So many times sudden deaths can be blamed on over feeding. Heck just look at most fish foods and they state to feed only what can be consumed in 2-3 minutes. I know I sure as heck feed more than what is recommended to my fish. Again experience plays a role on knowing how much to feed.

Most of the recommendations are just that..recommendations. As anyone gains experience in a hobby they begin to discover what does and doesn't work and create they're own rules. Heck, just look at all the arguments about planted tanks as to CO2, what causes algae, fertilization amounts, etc. 

I don't think Mustafa knows everything about shrimp nor do I think he does, but he is quite serious about the subject. And yah, I thought at times he has been too strict, but too stict, too loose, pick your poison.


----------



## erijnal (Jun 19, 2006)

frugal, you say you've been experimenting, and I'm curious whether or not you've tried different methods of fertilizing on different tanks, such as using PPS on one, and EI on another.

if you have, do you mind sharing any observations? To me, EI constitutes a "high" dosing of fertilizer (and judging from his post, I know mrbelvedere might disagree with me there), or at the very least a higher level than would normally be found in the native environment of a typical shrimp, whereas PPS adds just the right amount and has no leftovers, if I understand correctly. So, saying that EI fertilization will ultimately result a shorter overall lifespan of a shrimp doesn't sound too far off, especially when the analogy of air pollution and how it affects human beings is used. I know this is just logic, though, and logic doesn't work for everything.

Also, just want to mention that the way you've presented yourself in this thread has been admirable.


----------



## crazie.eddie (May 31, 2004)

AnneRiceBowl said:


> LOL...It took me awhile to get the "feel" of this forum. I felt a bit intimated by some of the members here--I still am a bit.


No need to be intimidated. Lots of knowledgeable, mature people here. Some, like myself, can be immature. LOL But Hey! Everyone speaks there mind without worries of being censored or removed. There's too much real crap that goes on in the real world. Why carry it on in cyberspace?


----------



## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

crazie.eddie said:


> No need to be intimidated. Lots of knowledgeable, mature people here. Some, like myself, can be immature. LOL But Hey! Everyone speaks there mind without worries of being censored or removed. There's too much real crap that goes on in the real world. Why carry it on in cyberspace?


Exactly, in marching band we call it shameless (many other variations along that line too....) Just act like yourself and post away..... Not tooooo many people hate me yet, and look at all the spam I post every day (almost 1.5k posts) (I need a life ) 

Once you know the smilie's charecters ofhand there is a problem 

-Andrew

Sooo, What have people's results been?


----------



## rain- (Mar 29, 2004)

My shrimp breed best in my heavily planted tank with lots of ferts and CO2. The CRS females have lots of eggs and the babies grow fast with good survival rate. The micro-organisms also live on the plants and on other surfaces. I don't think plants could kill the beneficial bacteria and other stuff by just growing a lot. 

I'm sure it's OK to keep shrimp in a non-planted tank too, but for me it just hasn't worked, the shrimp seem to get more stressed that way. In a lush planted tank they are much more fearless. 

Just as you can keep fish with or without plants, you can keep shrimp too. There's so many ways to do things, there's not just one right way.


----------



## frugalfish (Apr 21, 2005)

erijnal said:


> frugal, you say you've been experimenting, and I'm curious whether or not you've tried different methods of fertilizing on different tanks, such as using PPS on one, and EI on another.


Sorry, but I haven't done anything in that arena. Definitely would be interesting to see a study done on it though. All I can say is that on my own planted tanks (much like my gardening) I take a minimalist approach to maintenance and care. 




erijnal said:


> Also, just want to mention that the way you've presented yourself in this thread has been admirable.


I really appreciate the compliment, thank you.


----------

