# magnesium def and overdose?



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

so. my sword has magnesium def according to a chart. the veins are dark on it. i dose above EI in my tanks with micros. 29 gallon with 1/8 tsp csm+b. also 1/4 tsp of epsom salt and 1-2 ml of flourish iron.

however my ludwigia has a few curling leaves that suggests either mg overdose or calcium def.. i didn't think it was possible to overdose mg easily. and if that's the case why is my sword looking like poop?
i dose 1/2 tsp GH booster weekly as well.
my tap water also has clacium

im confused


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

By far the most common nutrient deficiency is carbon deficiency, or CO2 deficiency. And, that will cause just about any symptom of poor plant health you might ever see. That's why chasing deficiencies is less fruitful than just dosing non-limiting amounts of all nutrients, and working on your CO2 system to be sure you are providing as much as you can to the plants.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

hoppy im sad.. we went over this in private.. cmon man i've got around 65 ppm c02... LOL my fish according to most people should be dead!!!

if i need more c02.. im throwing those plants away!!!


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## ray-the-pilot (Jul 5, 2011)

After testing water for three years I can say from my experience that you cannot reliably diagnose a plant defficiency by looking at the plant. This is especially true of Ca/Mg problems. The only reliable way to know the level of a nutrient is to test it using a relible test. 
If it were possible to determine a nutrient problem by looking at the plant, my Ag Agent would ask me to bring some plants and not a soil sample.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

i would say ur probably right... who knows.. i overdose everything at this point...except light. oh well time will tell

ill note i never had this problem under fertilizer with flourish line. just bad algae


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## willknowitall (Oct 3, 2010)

try add more magnesium sulfate
ive added up to a table spoon per 5 gal lol
made my water clearer but no ill effects
i dont add that much anymore haha


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I thought potassium def was dark veiniation?

Also since you gave a ppm for co2 and I highly doubt you have actual accurate co2 testing equipment, that your using the ph kh co2 chart. If that's the case you really have no idea how much co2 you have in the tank. 

The only way to be certain that you have proper co2 levels w/o the ridiculously expensive equipment is to up the bubble count till you see stress in fauna then back it down a notch.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

i have one 

also hach c02 test kits are fairly accurate imo.. based on results from mah probe

also note the oxyguard can only read up to 50 ppm c02.. after that u have to find alternative methods


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

im also looking into getting another meter that reads higher but less accurate. anton parr.. its for beverages but it may help fill in the blind spots


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Well then you should have enough gas.


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## ldaniel (Jul 4, 2011)

Hach makes a co2 titration kit. We have one in my lab. if you can get your hands on some sodium hydroxide then you should be able to walk through testing your co2 in ppm by simple drop count method. if you're interested I'll look through tonight when I get to work on the process and help out in anyway I can. 
I was having some of the same issues with my mexican oak leaf, I have sense up the c o 2 to about 70 ppm and have seen no ill effects on any of my fish. I have found that the chart is inaccurate but testing with the proper equipment and checking with a drop checker have show my numbers to be consistent. 

Sent from my HTC Liberty using Tapatalk


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## KH2PO4 (Jul 18, 2009)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> so. my sword has magnesium def according to a chart. the veins are dark on it. i dose above EI in my tanks with micros. 29 gallon with 1/8 tsp csm+b. also 1/4 tsp of epsom salt and 1-2 ml of flourish iron.
> 
> however my ludwigia has a few curling leaves that suggests either mg overdose or calcium def.. i didn't think it was possible to overdose mg easily. and if that's the case why is my sword looking like poop?
> i dose 1/2 tsp GH booster weekly as well.
> ...


Huh? Isn't curling leaves a kind of stunting? And Mg shortage can stunt plants.:icon_roll
But the 1/4 TSP you said = 3x a week? If so, that's already adequate. Couldn't be Mg def then.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

thanks daniel! i have a hach titration kit. i use it in conjunction with my probe now...

use curling leaves are a type of stunting. i don't think calcium or MG simply because my tap water contains both, i dose gh booster per EI. i add 1/8 tsp of csm +B which is double the EI dose. and i add 1/4 tsp of MGSO4 3 x a week as well with iron.
standard EI for my tank of 29 g with KNO3 and KH2PO4. i also add 1/8 tsp of potassium sulfate on my macro days.. oh and trace 1-2 ml of flourish iron as well.... I SHOULD BE WELL over EI on my micro side... Phos and Nitrate kits test and show i have plenty of both.. 20-30 nitrates and around 5ppm phosphates... i have no reason to believe my K would be low either


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

It looks like you are adding more than non limiting amounts of all the nutrients. Maybe your co2 equipment is incorrect?


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

I SURE HOPE NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i will be one upset puppy. however it comes with calibration fluid and appears to be calibrated properly...

Since i've thought about it i tested my tank water and it appears my phosphates are above 10 ppm.. whats this i've read before about iron and phosphates cancelling each other out? MG and IRON def look and act similar... im wondering... anyone care to fill in the dots


bsmith i think i've read somewhere you make fresh REAL fishie food.. is this correct?


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I dont make it but I do resell Kens premium foods. There is a link to my FS thread in my sig. This stuff changed my outlook on commercially available fish foods I can tell you that.


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## ldaniel (Jul 4, 2011)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> I SURE HOPE NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i will be one upset puppy. however it comes with calibration fluid and appears to be calibrated properly...
> 
> Since i've thought about it i tested my tank water and it appears my phosphates are above 10 ppm.. whats this i've read before about iron and phosphates cancelling each other out? MG and IRON def look and act similar... im wondering... anyone care to fill in the dots
> 
> ...


I have also read about PO4 and Iron interacting. Before when I dose heave on the iron my water column becomes cloudy and after a few hours it will clear. I was dosing about 1ppm at a time for Iron using Flourish Iron. I’m unsure if this was due to using Fleet for P but since I changed to KH2PO4 I have not seen the same issue. My numbers were around the same as yours. P was at about 12 – 16ppm depending on the day. I would dose enough to get FE around 1ppm and within 6 hours the Total FE in the water would be below 0.1ppm.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Well i do know iron precipitates out of the water column. so it going away doesnt bother me as long as the plants are getting what they need.. im curious at what concentration they react. Or how to prevent it.. i dont want the nutrients to be unavailable to my plannts!


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

i don't think you should have any problem when adding Phosphate and iron on separate days. i think your co2 is still the problem, how exactly do you diffuse the co2? sorry if i missed this info in your previous posts. i myself thought why sometime my plants don't do well, drop checker was green and fish looked normal. then i thought why not try to increase the co2, after increasing the co2 by double, drop checker still looks the same or maybe bit lighter in color, fish looked normal and plant showed bit of improvement on the same day. today i increased the co2 by triple and i will find out what are the results when i get home. my guess is that drop checker might show lime green and fish will be ok, all am saying is that drop checker isn't accurate as your fish are, fish can tell you how much co2 you got in your tank. keep increasing the co2 until you see the fish start to gasp for air. don't depend on the bubble counter either, i have mine 5-8bps or more, but again its too fast to count, maybe its more than that. low pressure psi also plays an important role on how much co2 you can diffuse with more or less psi.

water circulation is also very important.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

happi, i have a digital probe. my c02 is not the problem and if it is, im throwing away my plants. im above 50 ppm for sure, and titration c02 kits put me at 65 ppm.
i diffuse with a cerge style reactor.

also i have a koralia nano 425 for circulation with my sunsun 402b

AND a flexible bubble want i recently added. although im thinking of doing a diy giant bubble maker instead with pvc


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> Well i do know iron precipitates out of the water column. so it going away doesnt bother me as long as the plants are getting what they need.. im curious at what concentration they react. Or how to prevent it.. i dont want the nutrients to be unavailable to my plannts!


I know that Fe precipitation clouds the water but does it also make the Fe less or not available at all to the plants?


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Ludwigia has always been a problem for me. What type of bulbs do you have t5?


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

2 18 watt t5 6500K and 2 18 watt colormax. they are in coralife fixtures. they sit right on top of the tank and have horrible reflectors.. the reflectors are very shiny but don't aim well.. my glass gets gda and gsa algae all the time.. even with one fixture on.. so i know light is going everywhere in the tank.. ID LOVE TO HAVE TEK REFLECTORS.. they wont fit however


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Try running2 bulbs instead. Sounds like you have too much light and not enough CO2+nutrients. Couldn't hurt to dose Mg either. I do it with epson salt or GH booster.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

mistergreen i respectfully decline both c02 and nutrients. but i will try it. c02 is measured with digital probe and hach titration kits
ferts are EI overdosed except for kno3 and kh2po4

also dose extra mg through epsom salt and i oversose csm+b by double

i've learned never to rule out any possibility in this hobby


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

bsmith said:


> I know that Fe precipitation clouds the water but does it also make the Fe less or not available at all to the plants?


 
from my understanding they form a different compound that is unuseable by the plants.. not that this is accurate its just what i believe i have read somewhere.. i'd love to know more specifics about it and im comming up short on google


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I just wanted to say that I really like the coralife t5no fixtures. I think that with the provided bulbs in the FW model it gives about the best color reproduction of any setup I have had.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

great color.. not good projection of light.. the fixtures are nice and slim though..


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I have one on my 20L that I am trying to breed my s.barbatus and black schultzies and in a 37g that I breed the L183 starlights in. They are both on the top using the provided flimsy legs but both still cast over the whole substrate.


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## ldaniel (Jul 4, 2011)

iron tri phosphate, this is what I believe is precipitate it out when iron and phosphorus mixed with in the water columm. this is just what sticking in my head so I could be wrong. 
are you able to measure the tds in your tank? I would be curious to know what your numbers are as there may be too much salt and your plants can't update nutrients? 

Sent from my HTC Liberty using Tapatalk


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

sorry im not really getting out what im trying to say.. they project light EVERYWHERE.. not just where its needed. there is wasted light that escapes the tank. goes down the glass. up into the sky.... etc.. the reflectors don't project the light DOWN... it makes it there but take out one bulb. buy u a tek reflector, install it and see what it looks like.. nice even lighting through the tank. did i mention EVEN.. light isn't wasted on the glass and lighting up the living room. does it still happen? yes but they definitely help control glass algae in my opinion. you just can't have one of those in ur fixture without it looking doofy. that and it only can do one. the bulbs are too close together


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

nope.. no tds meter here.. how would i get high salts? i know the ferts are considered salts, mgso4 (epsom salt) is obviously a salt....


should i then do an 80 -90 % water change to reset the tank to almost 0?


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## ldaniel (Jul 4, 2011)

that's what I would try. I can not site where I read it at, however I know that when my tds drop below 600 I had greater growth. if your tap water is high in calcium magnesium then your tds could be starting up as high as 200ppm. 
total dissolved solids consist of any ion that is dissolved in water. potassium nitrate calcium magnesium phosphorus sulfates and even your micros add into tds. that could be something else you may want to try. 

Sent from my HTC Liberty using Tapatalk


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

hmm... worth a try.. will do

guess the next few pieces of equipment will be a PAR meter and TDS meter


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Are you using a pH probe? that's how you're getting CO2? I would second guess your numbers if you're using a pH probe.

A real CO2 probe is mighty expensive.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

c02 probe.. sorry if i said ph somewhere


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## zergling (May 16, 2007)

HD, 

With that much nutrients and that much CO2, you should be getting explosive pearling and daily noticeable plant growth from all your plants, regardless if you're getting limited by a nutrient. Here's 2 possible ideas.

1) That coralife T5NO fixture is crap. Even with two of them, you're still not getting enough *PAR* for your plants. 
I've had that fixture on my 20L. On its own, it could only barely keep java moss alive. It can't keep any other plant alive. It's only good for growing diatoms or green spot algae (phosphate def). 

I wouldn't be surprised that two of these crap still can't provide enough light for your taller 29G. It's a total of 72 watts of T5NO crap bulbs with crap ballast and crap "reflectors". 

I'm willing to bet a 2x24W T5HO retrofit kit hung high enough for good spread. Or get the 2x39W T5HO kit and just deal with the tiny little light spill (bulbs are only 34" long - fyi). If you're going to do this, use bulbs that the reef folks have found with high PAR ratings -- UVL AquaSun and GE6500K would be a good start.

.....and I just realized this might the first time I've advised someone to get more light.....


2) Your CO2 tests are wrong, or something is causing the readings to get inaccurate. I doubt this is the case though. Although, shouldn't 65ppm be enough to gas and kill all your fishies?


Anywho.....good luck...... =/


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> c02 probe.. sorry if i said ph somewhere


nice... You probably have too much light then.. cut it in half and see where that goes. Go for a PAR meter while you're at it


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

zergling.. 65 ppm is more accurate to what most people probably deal with.. 30 ppm is a rule of thumb some one came up with and most peoples tank that is growing well with medium light is probably closer to the 40- 45 ppm range.. 65 is nothing. tom bar runs around 70-80.. he even has some shrimp in that tank as well.. my rcs do just fine with it..

Higher oxygen levels are the key here.. 2-4 ppm of o2 will equal dead fish 7-11 is where you wanna be. i cannot verify where my o2 levels are because i dont have a way to test that and my fish aren't dead so i will assume its high enough...

as for light. I WANT A HANGING TEK FIXTURE...(wife can't stand the idea of hanging light) i can adjust height and the 4 bulb fixture has the option of 2 or 4 bulbs on giving me plenty of adjustibility whether it be i need more or less? or I just need more accurate cri ratings? maybe more focused light? 

Im curious at this point how different types of light distribution affect plant growth High lumens produces fast initial stemmy type growth while higher par produces bushy healthy growth.. both are fast but one is better.. obviously this "could" variate to other aspects of lighting. PAR ratings are measured within a certain area.. but what about reflection? the light comming off the substrate and glass? what about lumens/par how does ratio affect plant growth?

does it even matter? i assume at this point its time for more "Playing"


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Do any lighting options give high par and lumens? MH maybe?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> zergling.. 65 ppm is more accurate to what most people probably deal with.. 30 ppm is a rule of thumb some one came up with and most peoples tank that is growing well with medium light is probably closer to the 40- 45 ppm range.. 65 is nothing. tom bar runs around 70-80.. he even has some shrimp in that tank as well.. my rcs do just fine with it..
> 
> Higher oxygen levels are the key here.. 2-4 ppm of o2 will equal dead fish 7-11 is where you wanna be. i cannot verify where my o2 levels are because i dont have a way to test that and my fish aren't dead so i will assume its high enough...
> 
> ...


If.......and that's a big if.........the CO2/nutrients are non limiting, then you the light is not likely to be the issue.

This tank is 40" away from the plants on the bottom and at 1.2 W/gal of Tek T5 lighting: and it's only1 month old










It's not a lot of light.

For reflectance, this is easy, take the PAR meter probe and invert it, or from the side or from the top, any direction you wish.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

For a TDS meter let me suggest the hanna primo TDS meter.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Hann...gc.r_pw.&fp=b62ed9ac4dc6a4e4&biw=1280&bih=578

I have had one for a few years almost and it has been wonderful! They are cheap but for TDS you need not spend a million dollars.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

ehhhhh... it was a thought.. and im working on getting a par meter...... 

well that means its not light then... noted

IM Probably back to square one which is... im screwing up fertilizers somehow.. i find in life im better at hard things that easy things or common sense as most would call it.. i guess i have an Einstein problem.... LOL i will play with lights and c02 more and see if that doesn't fix it


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

thanks for all the suggestions.. it appears i have much more testing and playing to do.. ill keep an update going if anyone is still interested


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## zergling (May 16, 2007)

HD - the tek light fixtures can be ordered with mounting legs, right? Or am I thinking of a different fixture...?

Tom - yes, but the Tek fixture is light years ahead of the Coralife T5NO fixture. There's just no comparison between the two. I've tried to grow plants with the Coralife T5NO light strip with excel overdose and ei light -- only java moss managed to stay alive.

Anyway, see if you can borrow a PAR meter from a member of your club or something. It could very well be something else, but wouldn't hurt to know how much par the plants are actually getting....


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA club here???? HAHAHA i may be in the fourth largest city in Tennessee BUT THERE ARE NO CLUBS that care about planted tanks..... wow sorry thanks for the laugh.. i feel like im in zombie territory

u can get legs for it.. but im alsmost thinking i will have too much light at that point.. if according to Tom i don't already


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## zergling (May 16, 2007)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA club here???? HAHAHA i may be in the fourth largest city in Tennessee BUT THERE ARE NO CLUBS that care about planted tanks..... wow sorry thanks for the laugh.. i feel like im in zombie territory
> 
> u can get legs for it.. but im alsmost thinking i will have too much light at that point.. if according to Tom i don't already


Oh, too bad about not having a local planted tank club. 

My idea of you being light-limited could probably pan out wrong, but I'm fairly certain you'll be handle the light intensity and resulting nutrient demand by Tek lights. I used to have my ATI 4x54W fixture less than 6" above my tank (see link below), but only running 2 bulbs -- very very good plant growth after I got the right amount of dosing needed (slightly more P and GH Booster than the standard EI dosage).

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh8/zergling2/120p/tank_nov28-1.jpg
(2x54W T5HO on 65gallon ADA 120-P; 6 hours per day photoperiod)

The ATI fixture is quite a bit better than Tek, so you actually have more room for mistakes with Tek (running 2 bulbs) compared to what I had with the ATI. Looking at how good you've been with measuring CO2 and observing your tank, I don't see you having any problems with Tek lighting -- assuming all other factors are ideal.

One possible problem with using mounting legs with the Tek would be getting the appropriate size. I think the 29G is 30" long, right? If that is the case, I don't know if the Tek mounting legs will actually work for you.

Anyway, hopefully you figure out what's limiting your tank soon.


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## zergling (May 16, 2007)

*QUICK QUESTION* - Are you getting any algae? Sorry if I missed it in the previous 3 pages (I swear I read all of them!). 


Here's what I would do if I'm sure that CO2 and lighting is good, and I'm pretty sure I'm messing my nutrient dosing:

- Get new batch of ferts from a reputable vendor. 
- Clean filters, take out any algae present, clean glass
- Do a 50% water change 
- Do another 50% water change
- Consider doing another 50% WC :hihi:

- Take pics - FTS and individual species shots
- Dose standard EI for a week or two
- Take new pics and compare any changes.
- Adjust dosing if necessary.

I did these steps on the 120-P I linked above, but for a different reason (shrimp death, not plant health).


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

i get gsa and gda in minor ammounts on front glass only
tank is 30 inches long

i just did a 50 % on sunday and actually as a side thought i did one tuesday night which was after one dose of macro and tuesday one dose of micro

i get no algae on plants

AS of today im thinking its potassium.. HOW.. I DON"T KNOW.. but im getting a few small holes in the plant leaf tissue and a few semi-clear spots. I trimmed my plants on sunday when i started noticing this.. my over dosing routine changed a little two weeks ago to what it is now.. the new growth that has begun is very nice...Very Nice.. im assuming as of right now that i was off on fertilizing.. too much light and c02 and not enough ferts...


EDIT: dry ferts came from greenleafaquariums.com gh booster is seachem equilibrium


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## zergling (May 16, 2007)

Keep an eye on GSA. It's easily noticeable on the front glass, but it can cause problems on slow(er?) growing plants like java ferns, crypts, and even HC. I had crypts develop holes on the leaves where GSA started.

GSA was the algae I had to deal with the longest on my 120-P. What finally worked for me was scraping off all GSA that I could, two 50% wc's in a row, followed by a 3 day blackout and upped my phosphate dosing. Lost chunks of my then young HC lawn due to GSA.

Then again, with your T5NO lighting, the GSA should be much easier to handle :icon_wink


Hopefully a little more K and P dosing will fix everything on your tank!


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

HD Blazingwolf-Sorry to get off topic but I have the same light setup over a 29 gallon. I would be very interested in your PAR readings when you get your hands on a meter. I have seen other data and it was bad, but it didn't seem accurately done. I know they are bad.

On topic, you actually may need better lights. I actually had worse algae with one fixture compared to two. The only thing I can think of is that the reflectors suck to the point where some parts of the tank are high light, some are low, etc. I think when you add the second, it may even this out. I am just totally guessing here. I had 3 for awhile and I did not have the issues people said I would with running half that amount of light. I have two non co2 setups, one with a Coralife T5NO, one with a Coralife PC (65 watts), both on a 20 Long. On my T5NO, I raised it about an inch for better light spread. On my PC tank, I had to raise it 9-10 inches to avoid algae and the light still seems a bit much. I really want to know how bad these really are.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Follow this link and you'll see just how bad Coralife T5NO fixtures can be.

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3350


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## zergling (May 16, 2007)

Jeff5614 said:


> Follow this link and you'll see just how bad Coralife T5NO fixtures can be.
> 
> http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3350


Not sure if you missed a sarcastic tag there, or I'm missing something. 

The guy runs 4 coralife T5NO strips - two 2x24w (48") and two 2x14w (24"). It's basically 6 T5NO bulbs covering the tank for a total of 152watts of T5NO lighting.


Anywho, as HD said - it might very well be a potassium def.....


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

zergling said:


> Not sure if you missed a sarcastic tag there, or I'm missing something.
> 
> The guy runs 4 coralife T5NO strips - two 2x24w (48") and two 2x14w (24"). It's basically 6 T5NO bulbs covering the tank for a total of 152watts of T5NO lighting.
> 
> ...


What I'm saying and trying to illustrate with Roy Deki's tank is that the OP is not lacking for light. Both tanks are basically identical as far as wpg.


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## zergling (May 16, 2007)

Jeff5614 said:


> What I'm saying and trying to illustrate with Roy Deki's tank is that the OP is not lacking for light. Both tanks are basically identical as far as wpg.


Watts per gallon? Seriously? I think HD's thread deserves more than a very outdated concept. 
LOL if you look at a few posts above, I have a pic of my *high* light 65gal tank that ran on 108 watts of T5HO. That's not even 2wpg.

With that said, Jeff5614's point is still a good one -- given enough coralife t5no strips, it *can* grow plants. Not a very effective use of electricity, but that's not something most freshwater planted tank folks look into.

I also a few posts above that the idea of HD being light-limited will most likely pan out to be wrong, but I still brought it up because the coralife T5NO strips very inefficient. The 20gal long I had couldn't grow any plants with those lights alone. Roy Deki's tank basically had to run what is essentially 3 light strips (or 6 x 48" T5NO bulbs) to have a setup that grows plants at a slow to medium pace (which is good for not having to trim too frequently).


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

zergling said:


> Watts per gallon? Seriously? I think HD's thread deserves more than a very outdated concept.
> LOL if you look at a few posts above, I have a pic of my *high* light 65gal tank that ran on 108 watts of T5HO. That's not even 2wpg.
> 
> With that said, Jeff5614's point is still a good one -- given enough coralife t5no strips, it *can* grow plants. Not a very effective use of electricity, but that's not something most freshwater planted tank folks look into.
> ...


Believe it or not, I have heard through my old deaf ears that wpg is outdated. However this is an apples to apples comparison. They're both using the same fixture so wpg is a valid comparison in this instance. Telling HD he needs more light is about as outdated as wpg. His lighting level is fine and that's the last thing he needs to be chasing down. People who can grow GDA have plenty of light.

If you look at my tank in my signature, you'll see it's a 75 with 108w of T5HO. I do have a vague, general, naive, simplistic and ill informed idea of how to manage a planted tank. I appreciate the enlightenment you've provided me with though. I guess I need to add another 100 watts or so before my plants figure out they don't have enough light.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

ahh jeff i have admired your tank before when perusing the tank section.. i like it

however DONT look at the pics that are there for me now on the 29.. since my son gassed my fishies a while back. i've started way over... totally new look which im starting to become pleased with

on a side not. i recently got rotala macranda. with one light on i get greenish leaves and with 2 i get reddish leaves... so im between decent and high light based on that plant..... SOO to think that i dont have enough light is probably stupid on my part in this point of things.

i shall continue adjusting ferts.. over time and raise c02 more

ph change is from 7.8 to 6.4 at this point using a digital meter i borrowed from my lfs
titration c02 test put me at 61 ppm of c02. at that range its also accurate to +/- 5 ppm


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## zergling (May 16, 2007)

HD - Do you still see signs of K limitation? With 61ppm of CO2, I assume it's easy to get limited on one or more nutrients, and start having problems.
Also, my apologies if my discussion with Jeff6514 here is irrelevant to your thread. This should be the last time I'll respond to his posts. 


Jeff5614 - Your tank is very nice. It's obviously a sign that you know how to do a freshwater tank right. Hey, guess what? My ADA 120-P has almost the same dimensions as your 75gal. Almost the same footprint, just not as tall. You know that pic I linked on one of my posts above? That was achieved with just 2x54W T5HO. Same as yours! _(So why would you think I would suggest you to add 100 more watts??)_

So why did I suggest HD to look into his lighting? Two assumptions. First assumption -- from reading his posts, it's easy to assume that he is not limited by CO2 or NPK. Second assumption - given my personal experience with that same light strip on a 20gal long, it can't grow plants on its own. _(Also happens that a 20g long has the same footprint as a 29gal, just not as tall)_

After those two assumptions, I still made a qualifying statement -- the light-limitation idea will most likely pan out to be wrong. As can be seen in my tank and if you actually read my posts in its entirety, I do not advocate more light. It just so happens that HD *might* be an exception (again, given the two assumptions I explained above).

With that said, I will do my best to ignore your future posts, Jeff5614. It is obvious that you did not bother to read and understand my posts in its entirety. You only looked at a few keywords and just assumed what I was trying to say, then made a decision to go against it. So I wish you the best, and hopefully we never cross paths again in this online forum.



Jeff5614 said:


> Believe it or not, I have heard through my old deaf ears that wpg is outdated. However this is an apples to apples comparison. They're both using the same fixture so wpg is a valid comparison in this instance. Telling HD he needs more light is about as outdated as wpg. His lighting level is fine and that's the last thing he needs to be chasing down. People who can grow GDA have plenty of light.
> 
> If you look at my tank in my signature, you'll see it's a 75 with 108w of T5HO. I do have a vague, general, naive, simplistic and ill informed idea of how to manage a planted tank. I appreciate the enlightenment you've provided me with though. I guess I need to add another 100 watts or so before my plants figure out they don't have enough light.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Lol! Its a discussion imo. Just because i made the thread doesnt mean other people cant duke it out.. it leaves room for everyone watching to learn something.. 

As of right now. The only def im seeing is my flame sword. Its beautifully red but with spots... weird.. the swords have taken a long time.. about two weeks since my first fert change and they are showing signs of something changing. Whther it be K or the fact that i raised my micro dose...?? I did both. Time shall tell


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

SO to revive this thread. my tek fixture with giesemann and sunwave bulbs came in 

WOW!!!!! pearling no longer happens at the top two or 3 leaves.. half way down my stalk 

bubbles bubbles everywhere... after day one all my plants look totally different

red plants are more red. greens deeper green and even my crypts looked different

i've heard that low c02 can make older leaves grow algaes of all kinds... im wondering now if its because my light was not reaching them... anyways ill definitely keep this updated over the next few weeks to see progress

edit: this was also the first time i've EVER seen my c02 drop after lights turn on... seems like my plants are actually using it now


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Having a fixture that does not penetrate deep enough to reach the bottom of some stems can be an issue if they are sensitive ones. Usually the bottom of the stem just kind of melts/rots or just becomes too weak to support the rest of the stem. I have had this experience with mostly Rotalas. 

I have never heard of algae forming because the light was not bright enough. I have seen this when the fixture is too powerful. This usually only happens on slower growing plants and the algae is normally GSA. 

Low Co2 will ALWAYS contribute to more algae regardless of fixture or intensity, period. 

What is the algae that you are experiencing again?


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

not really sure.. its filamentous.. no color on it.. and its probably due to the plant rotting.. it is the rotala i am having that issue with

lemme rephrase.. not necessarily no color.. its just small enough that i can't see any color.. some type of hair or thread algae


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Maybe it is just the remains of the rotting plant?

Here is a link to one of my favorite algae guides. Check it out and post up which algae it most resembles. 

http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

zergling said:


> HD - the tek light fixtures can be ordered with mounting legs, right? Or am I thinking of a different fixture...?
> 
> Tom - yes, but the Tek fixture is light years ahead of the Coralife T5NO fixture. There's just no comparison between the two. I've tried to grow plants with the Coralife T5NO light strip with excel overdose and ei light -- only java moss managed to stay alive.
> 
> Anyway, see if you can borrow a PAR meter from a member of your club or something. It could very well be something else, but wouldn't hurt to know how much par the plants are actually getting....


Coralife are junky, I've used a few of them.

ATI are about the best T5's, but I've moved to LED's, still, there's not any evidence that this tank is Mg deficient/overdosed, nor K+ limited.
Holes can happen from CO2 issues.
Stunted tips growth, smaller progressive leaves at the tips is a classic sign.

I do not know if the CO2 is 61ppm...........it many ways it does not matter. Some of my tanks measure 70-80ppm, and the Sturisoma breed EVERY 2 weeks. No algae, lots of fish and food.

Another tank might run at 50ppm, and another maybe 2ppm(not a typo, I'm know for those). I slowly adjust my CO2 to make the plants grow and at a nice high level of growth/health.

This allows me to use less light, dose whatever I want etc, and I use sediment sources for ferts, and lard on most ferts + big water changes. 
But the key....is really adjusting that CO2 and using the plants as the test kit, algae is also a test kit also.

Fish should NEVER be used as a test kit for the upper bound. Good current O2 also helps reduce issues for the fish.

I really have never found any secret other than the basic stuff. I've looked, and overlooked CO2 101 times. Sometimes I have to eat crow...........and take my own advice, but when I do and slowly adjust it right, I get a very nice tank that's bullet proof, grows plants like snot.......and fish breed and are happy.

Still, we all will get toasted and burnt by CO2.
Ferts/lights are pretty easy to test/adjust.

Different species of plant may need a lot more CO2 than many folks are use to. 

I tend to use the pH/KH scale and then progressively and slowly adjust from there. 40ppm is my start point. A meter handle works well for this and I NEVER adjust the CO2 then leave for work, I only adjust it when I'll be around for a few hours to observe things.

I have old references from 1994 where folks suggested 40ppm and some had added 100 ppm without any noted impact on the fish. Lots of variation. George Booth claimed 15ppm was fine for him.

I only test CO2 AFTERWORDS. Why? Becasue with excellent growth and results, I have a good reference for the measurement I take and I run a few standards to double check my measurements.

I doubt all my data, and we all should and make sure we confirm our method before making any conclusions about the readings.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I beg to differ when it comes to the coralife t5no fixtures. They are cheap and actually put off quite good color. Now if your trying to use one to go on a high tech setup then of course it wil not cut the mustard but I have one on my L183 breeding tank which has anubis and java fer and another on my barbatus and schultzie breeding tank with some really nice crypts, tropica 049 and a couple others and with no ferts or other aids everything grows very well. My c.roseranvig looks absolutely stunning!


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

im comming more around to its not a fert issue. i really believe its c02 and light...i know u can grow plants with low levels. my ten gallon with led lights and scrimp has wonderful growth and plants look awesome.. better than mine right now actually

so i am aware.. less light easy to maintain.. easy to control
THAT being said i am highly aware of how crappy my coralifes were. and the fact that the bulbs aren't very impressive either. i had a 30inch fixture so finding replacement bulbs was difficult so i stuck with coralife bulbs.. they work great for 3 months and then lose spectrum

stunting of my new leaves.. found to be!!! nitrate def.. why? my weekly water change. i've been draining 80% of the tank. tested the water last sundayi was leaving 1 ppm of nitrate for the plants the whole day!!!! that's been solved probably part of my lower leaf algae problem

overall much happier with new lights after one day.. this is day two and everything still looks great.. i'll know more by lunch time and even more by d6 pm est


TOM.. i love everything u post. i enjoy that you want people to think for themselves and understand the why's and how's not just the solution someone gives..
I assure you. i am trying my best to understand. i don't want someone to fix my problems i want to be able to understand my hobby and respond accordingly

thanks for all your input from time to time. correcting me where i have been wrong and giving continual advice to change or reassure my assumptions


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> Coralife are junky, I've used a few of them.
> 
> 
> I tend to use the pH/KH scale and then progressively and slowly adjust from there. 40ppm is my start point. A meter handle works well for this and I NEVER adjust the CO2 then leave for work, I only adjust it when I'll be around for a few hours to observe things.


 
meter handle? do explain!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

bsmith said:


> I beg to differ when it comes to the coralife t5no fixtures. They are cheap and actually put off quite good color. Now if your trying to use one to go on a high tech setup then of course it wil not cut the mustard but I have one on my L183 breeding tank which has anubis and java fer and another on my barbatus and schultzie breeding tank with some really nice crypts, tropica 049 and a couple others and with no ferts or other aids everything grows very well. My c.roseranvig looks absolutely stunning!


I've had stunning looking plants and bred fish with a Home Depot shop light and T12's.........but that the HD shop light is not cheapo junk? Not me, I would not say that.......it's cheap, that's what you get for the $. We can all grow plants without CO2, is old used tanks, concrete blocks, mud soil and play sand........and likely do okay.

Compared to that, then the Coralife are pretty high tech stuff.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> im comming more around to its not a fert issue. i really believe its c02 and light...i know u can grow plants with low levels. my ten gallon with led lights and scrimp has wonderful growth and plants look awesome.. better than mine right now actually
> 
> so i am aware.. less light easy to maintain.. easy to control
> THAT being said i am highly aware of how crappy my coralifes were. and the fact that the bulbs aren't very impressive either. i had a 30inch fixture so finding replacement bulbs was difficult so i stuck with coralife bulbs.. they work great for 3 months and then lose spectrum
> ...


Well, Bsmith's points are valid.

But the idea that light/CO2 is a fundamental thing for management is a good lesson/realization for aquatic plant hobbyist particularly when faced with the onslaught of marketing to the contrary.

It took me a long time, and I am very stubborn and distrustful.........of myself and what I see........before I was okay with putting things together as far as "how does a plant grow?" Simple question, not a simple answer.

I expect it'll take many folks a long time ago to come around, but........I have hope they will.

Ferts issues are easy to rule out, keep doing that, EI is well suited and then can be tweaked once you address the other issues like light and CO2.
You can work backwards, have the tail wag the dog.........by limiting some nutrients, which reduced and makes the PO4(or some other nutrient/s) moderately limiting...........more so that the milder CO2 limitation.......and then they see "Results" they immediate attribute to "EI lies..........." or "there are many ways to fertilize we do not yet understand" which is steer manure......we do and have understood the limiting factor in this hobby for 20+ years. It's documentable. 

Growing plants with Liebig's law is fundamental. No one will escape this concept in horticulture and methods to grow plants. Just because some hobbyist do not understand it, nor look into it more, or ignore responding to it because it does not suit their argument or what they are selling.......does not imply or mean the basic law on horticulture growth are not well understood. Little is learned from that type of ignorance. 
It does a disservice to the hobby, waste time, energy and $.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> meter handle? do explain!


Make or paint, mark etc.....small even tick marks on your needle valve's handle, this way you have a reference to adjust from.

Tape works also and you can move it.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

ahh noted.. i thought u were using some type of handle to adjust the valve to a finer degree.. leverage


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## zergling (May 16, 2007)

HD - good to hear all the progress you've made. Do watch your tank daily and check for any new algae growth. As I'm sure you know, more light = more CO2 demand. Just keep checking that you're supplying more than enough CO2.

My tank recently got GSA and some sort of hair algae. After going through my journal, I realized that the GSA started when I lowered my lighting by 3" and did not bother to adjust my CO2. Do note that I have an ATI fixture (most intense T5HO fixtures around), running 8 hours per day of 4x54W of T5HO, using bulbs of the highest PAR ratings from reef folks' research. That 3" difference was enough to get me GSA in less than a week. 

My point being - make sure you have enough CO2 now that you're supplying more light.



OT -
Tom -- LED's seem to be the way forward, but I'm still waiting for spectrum analysis and such by the good reef folks. 
ATI's are indeed the best T5HO, and are *overkill for planted tanks*. Just check out the 2week progress on my HC below. This was running 4x54W, 8 hours per day, and the fixture was 12" from the surface of the ADA 120-P (45cm / 17.7" tall). 

Sep 11 - http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh8/zergling2/ADA 120-P/11sep2011/fts_11sep2011.jpg
Sep 25 - http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh8/zergling2/ADA 120-P/Sep 25/fts_25sep2011.jpg

4 years ago, I was running the same fixture on the same tank for only 6 hours per day, but only 2x54W. My current 4x54W is just me being masochistic (?) and trying out super super high light disorder and seeing if I can manage it LOL! Definitely not something I'd recommend to anybody else!!


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

LOL you gotta be kidding i stare at my tanks everyday for 10 minutes every morning and for at least 1 hour every evening. between walking by and sitting down and just staring. i trim a little daily now to keep down my weekly trimming.

absolutely on c02.. i already raised it!!! i've never seen my levels drop before but.. mid day without even putting the probe in.. my drop checker was blue green instead of its normal yellowyness. i also turn my c02 on earlier starting this morning because i use a cerge reactor and it has to fill up a little before it becomes effective


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## zergling (May 16, 2007)

HD - sounds like we're on the same tank staring daily routine! Good luck and always remember to spend time to sit back, relax, and enjoy your hard work!


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

every day man, every day

matter of fact. i believe i am going to break down the tank just to change the sub and add peat.... i made some gelcaps that were filled with peat.. LOL i filled 35 of them.. took forever but i believe i've made my mind to do an overhaul


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## zergling (May 16, 2007)

That's why we do what we do!

Overhaul? New beginnings are always fun, especially if you have more knowledge from the last. 

What size Tek did you get? If you got the 36", you should use this overhaul to upgrade to a 40 breeder. No more light spill on the sides of your 30" tank, and you have no idea how amazing that extra 6" of space from front-to-back can do for you. If the Petco doller-per-gallon sale is still around, then now is the perfect time!

If you got the 24" Tek, then it's your call. I personally would save up $$$ for something that is 24"x18"x18".


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> LOL you gotta be kidding i stare at my tanks everyday for 10 minutes every morning and for at least 1 hour every evening. between walking by and sitting down and just staring. i trim a little daily now to keep down my weekly trimming.
> 
> absolutely on c02.. i already raised it!!! i've never seen my levels drop before but.. mid day without even putting the probe in.. my drop checker was blue green instead of its normal yellowyness. i also turn my c02 on earlier starting this morning because i use a cerge reactor and it has to fill up a little before it becomes effective


That would indicate to me that there is an issue going on somewhere. It is impossible for plant co2 intake to actually be able to show an reduction in a DC indication level. Also DC's are roughly about an hour or two behind the actual levels in the tank.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

it wasn't instant.. from day to day my dc is yellowy.. the day i installed lights... it was blueish green.. no adjustments to regulator or needlevalve were made

edit: that was at lunch.. by the end of the day it was a little greener.. no blue tint.. but it hadn't made it to its yellow color yet.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

i got the 24 since i have a 29g tall which its foot print is 30 inches soo... i'd love to have a 40b and i could raise it and use all 4 bulbs daily.. i use two of the 4 right now wit ha mid day burst for 1 hour


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## zergling (May 16, 2007)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> i got the 24 since i have a 29g tall which its foot print is 30 inches soo... i'd love to have a 40b and i could raise it and use all 4 bulbs daily.. i use two of the 4 right now wit ha mid day burst for 1 hour


I don't think the 24" Tek would work too well with a 40b (36" length), as the left and right 6" of the tank would be barely getting any light. 

If it was me, I'd stay on the 29g and save up for a 24"x18"x18" tank, whether the ADA Cube Garden 60-H(45) (dimensions: 60x45x45cm), or something custom/locally made. But that's just me - not everyone's willing to spend so much money on hobbies.

*Pic from a nano-reef thread: http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=279821&st=20
See the nice dimensions. It'll cost a pretty penny though if you get the ADA.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

i can adjust for width.. i have my eye on a 75 of a friend right now.. if it comes down to it.. ill buy another light


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## zergling (May 16, 2007)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> i can adjust for width.. i have my eye on a 75 of a friend right now.. if it comes down to it.. ill buy another light


A 75g is a MAJOR upgrade my friend. Be sure to do your research on startup costs and work, and all the recurring maintenance. 

Around 5 years ago, I did this in a span of less than a year:
Start with 2.5g kit.
Returned the kit and upgraded to a 10g kit.
Upgraded to 40g long.
Upgraded to ADA 120-P (65ish gallons).

It was a VERY expensive year. As I stare at my tank everyday, you know what I say to myself? No regrets! roud: :icon_mrgr roud:

(I still have my old 10g btw, currently a RCS tank)


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Im going to venture to use my 30" cat aqua 4x24w t5ho fixture on my new 40b. I actually think that a 24" fixture would work just fine because all you would have to do is raise the light till you get the kind of spread that covers the substrate. Since a 40b is so shallow I doubt that the extra height would even have much of a negative effect on intensity.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

bsmith, that's kinda where i was going on a 40B.. my tek holds 4 bulbs but i currently use two of them.. 4 is way too much.. i just left myself room to expand if i wanted. so raising it 6 or more inches would probably provide the spread i'd need.. or i could get technical and use lower light plants on the outside edges... who knows??

I totally expect high expenses.. if i do a 75. its getting plumbed hands down..
being a 29g i got kinda techy but there isn't much point to plumbing a 29. i can do a 50% WC in about 5 minutes..


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

to give an update. i've raised my lights. they are now 30 inches above my substrate. my c02 is still around 60 ish range.. kh chart puts me at 97 which i don't believe
lowered my dosages to standard EI.. plants are responding to a certain degree. as i test since i don't have anymore root tabs. i made peat tabs. i placed them all around m yworst plant which is my rotala colorata.. almost immediate results. i believe my flourite is failing..

this is all stemming from a specific day that involved an accident with excel and flocculants. 
im rebuilding my tank tonight. updates soon


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

updated since i never did.
it was a co2 deficiency  and lack of good maintenance practices, cleanring out old shaded leaves on bushy growth helps flow, and thus co2 and nutrients get to plants


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