# Ok to use Zebra Danios to cycle high pH tank?



## mlh7n (Jun 14, 2010)

Hi all. I've started a 55g tank using Eco-complete for the first time. It bumped up the pH from 7.3 out of the tap to about 7.7, just as Caribsea said it would do. I'm not worried about it since it will come down over the next few water changes and I generally prefer not to mess with pH much. Other than the higher pH the water is testing just fine. Here's the question. I'm planning on a nice peaceful community set-up and I was going to put a few zebra danios in as my cycling fish. Should I be concerned since danios tend to prefer lower pH? I could go with another hardy fish like dwarf gouramis (but would prefer until the plants develop to bring them in) or rainbows, but in my experience danios are the absolutely best cycling fish.


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

I have always used guppies to cycle. Over feed them and your get your cycling done quick! Plus they are cheap and easy to give away when you are done.

After a while your PH should stabilize a bit more and drop a few degrees. The danios available in Utah are all kept in harder waters and higher PH. 

you could cycle using someone else's tank water... I have done this many many many times. its a great jump start on the cycling


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## Hyzer (Mar 9, 2010)

Google fishless cycle.

Diana also gave some good info here: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/fertilizers-water-parameters/108587-how-do-fishless-cycle.html

You don't end up stuck with some fin-nipping Danios.

You don't unnecessarily cause fish stress with varying water parameters.


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## mlh7n (Jun 14, 2010)

Thanks for both suggestions. I did a few water changes before I was ready to put the Danios in and the pH came down as expected so I decided to go ahead. They are doing fine.


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## TLE041 (Jan 16, 2010)

Using fish food will cycle a tank just as well. Plus you won't end up with a fish you don't want.


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## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

Why use fish to cycle - it's stressful on them! A fishless cycle is very easy and HUMANE!


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

wendyjo said:


> Why use fish to cycle - it's stressful on them! A fishless cycle is very easy and HUMANE!


If you watch the water parameters carefully and make adjustments when needed, using fish to cycle is humane.


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## Da Plant Man (Apr 7, 2010)

So having ammonia levels jump from 0.25ppm to 3ppm back to 0ppm is fine?


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## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

In my opinion any readable ammonia or nitrite is stressful and potentially harmful in the long run to the fish. Seeing as how it's not necessary to use fish for cycling I just don't understand why people still do it. Our goal as fishkeepers is to keep our fish as healthy and "happy", for lack of a better word, as possible. So why deliberately expose them to ammonia and nitrite when it's actually easier to do a fishless cycle? And yes, it's easier because you don't have to be testing the water all day and doing all those water changes.


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## tuffgong (Apr 13, 2010)

cycling a tank with live fish is inhumane, plain and simple.


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## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Have a good look through my thread. I was in the same position as you 2 months ago. Theres absolutely loads of info there on cycling with fish (which is not good) and without in which I ended up doing. You can actually cycle your tank in about a week and half doing fishless cycle as I did with lots of help from the PT members. Have a look friend. Hope it helps. Thanks!

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/f...8587-how-do-fishless-cycle-3.html#post1096109


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

I have never had my Amonia levels jump all over the place like that during cycling folks... I use small fish in large tanks. Lets not open that can of worms. We are all guilty of keeping fish in a 'cage' and I am sure we were all, at one point, guilty of overstocking or keeping a fish in a tank that was too small or I water that was less then optimal for them. Missing a water change, etc.


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## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

People make mistakes - that is different than deliberately exposing the fish to harmful toxins. If you know of a way to cycle a tank with fish in it without having readable ammonia or nitrite in the tank please let us know. Until then, you ARE purposely treating your fish inhumanely. That's your choice, but it'snot something you should encourage others to do.


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## Da Plant Man (Apr 7, 2010)

Weather or not we keep them in a "Cage", we can still make them happier. Yes, I do admit to keeping my fair share of goldies in bowls and hundreds of guppys in a 29g tank, but now I know that is bad for the fish and I avoid that as much as possible. If I see that my tanks have .25 ammonia I DO A WATER-CHANGE, the reason it might not jump around for you might be because if you don't do water changes and it stays steady but not safe, but deadly.


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

wendyjo said:


> People make mistakes - that is different than deliberately exposing the fish to harmful toxins. If you know of a way to cycle a tank with fish in it without having readable ammonia or nitrite in the tank please let us know. Until then, you ARE purposely treating your fish inhumanely. That's your choice, but it'snot something you should encourage others to do.


For those who are curious, here in my method: I use about 5 guppies per 10 gallons. I use 50% tank water from another tank and 50% tap water. I use 2 filters. One will stay as the permanent biological filter. The other will be a chemical filter with activated carbon, which I will remove after about 5 days. This will remove any ammonia, etc. I use Potted plant as a 'live filter' also. Plants are the best filter next to bacteria IMO. With potted plants and 2 filters, now its time to test the water. I test 2 times a day, morning and night. The numbers are almost always 0 for Ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrates. On occasion I have seen the ammonia go up to 0.25 ppm, but this is usually becasue I have rushed something... If that is the case an Immediate water change or 50% (containing 50% tap and 50% water from another tank)... But again this is rare and usually becasue I was in a hurry. All of my tank read Zero across the board and receive weekly water changes. If Zeros = Humane, then I have nailed it!

I appreciate everyones concern for fish, and I would never intentionally do anything to harm my fish. Hopefully I am misreading your tone, but there are other methods to this hobby and none of the ones I chose are inhumane. If you don't believe me, hop in a plane and come over for a visit and check out my setups. I will even cycle a tank for you and let you test it yourself


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## farmhand (Jun 25, 2009)

Caton said:


> ...we can still make them happier.


Would you suggest a fish psychiatrist who will give a happy test?


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## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

i've been using fish to cycle tanks my whole life, i never have an issue... the problem is when people grossly overfeed in a new tank... 

When a properly setup and monitored tank cycles it doesn't go from normal to deadly in 15 minutes, it takes a little time and if you are an actually hobbyist you will watch the parameters and the behavior of the fish, YOU WILL KNOW WHEN SOMETHING IS WRONG....

Small water changes are a life saver, and under feeding is a huge help.

just my take, but i've been just fine using fauna to cycle a tank for length of my career as a fish geek...


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

F22 said:


> i've been using fish to cycle tanks my whole life, i never have an issue... the problem is when people grossly overfeed in a new tank...
> 
> When a properly setup and monitored tank cycles it doesn't go from normal to deadly in 15 minutes, it takes a little time and if you are an actually hobbyist you will watch the parameters and the behavior of the fish, YOU WILL KNOW WHEN SOMETHING IS WRONG....
> 
> ...


Its the truth. Careful monitoring and proper cycling setup will yield a flawless fish cycle with no Toxins harming the fish the entire time.


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## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

Why would you choose to use fish and take a chance on a spike when it can be done just as easily without fish?


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## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

Its not taking a chance if you are a responsible aquarist.


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

If you grab water and substrate from an established tank, use an established filter to start and float a bunch of hornwort on top, I don't you will be exposing fish to a *spike*. The idea is to *gradually* increase the fish population so the bacteria population can increase as well.


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

F22 said:


> Its not taking a chance if you are a responsible aquarist.


What he said


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## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

hbosman said:


> The idea is to *gradually* increase the fish population so the bacteria population can increase as well.


This is what I did with my 29g. I planted the bejesus out of it, then placed (at max) six very small fish every two weeks. I've monitored my water very closely, and I still haven't seen a spike yet. I've just recently stopped adding nitrogen to this tank. The nitrates are staying balanced at a rough 7.5 ppm.

That said, I planned this. Silent cycle, I believe it was called. I used hornwort and hygro to help keep the ammo down, and I'm slowly thinning out the hornwort, to be replaced by a different tall plant (that doesn't grow four inches a day).


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## redfalconf35 (Feb 24, 2008)

I don't think anyone is condoning tossing a full bioload into a bucket full of water and watching as they all gasp on their own waste... That's just a waste of money and a bit cruel. However, you can cycle the tank with livestock in it without subjecting them to undue pain. I did it just recently (out of necessity rather than choice, but that's beside the point). I found an amano shrimp in my 29g that i was tearing down and i decided to set my 2.5g up prematurely. The tank had been sitting empty up to the point when i needed to put the shrimp in it. The shrimp was happy and healthy the entire time. Granted, i was responsible about it (daily water changes, close monitoring of the parameters, etc.). I just think that the blanket condemnation of fish-included cycling is a little overbearing. There are perfectly responsible aquarists that choose to cycle with fish, and don't subject their livestock to pain and suffering.

@OP: I've kept danios in liquid rock with a very high pH, they're a very adaptable fish, and very hardy as well. I wouldn't worry about your pH, you're fine there.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

wendyjo said:


> People make mistakes - that is different than deliberately exposing the fish to harmful toxins. If you know of a way to cycle a tank with fish in it without having readable ammonia or nitrite in the tank please let *us* know. Until then, you ARE purposely treating your fish inhumanely. That's your choice, but it'snot something you should encourage others to do.


Lets try and remember that these are fish we're talking about... if you were really concerned about being humane you would have no part in the hobby because most imported fish have HUGE die off rates, and the LFS die off rates are high as well, there really isn't anything "humane" about bagging and boxing up fish that live in rivers in the amazon and bringing them into our homes, especially with the amount of ammonia that builds up in the bags over the shipping process... anyways...

I'm not sure what everyone here is really worried about, this is a PLANTED tank forum, the whole tank is a huge filter and when you plant it heavily when you start you really shouldn't see much of a cycle ever. Also using mulm from another filter to seed the new filter is pretty common practice I would think. With that done there really shouldn't be much of an issue. Personally, I usually don't add much fish wise until a month or two has past but that is because I like to focus on the plants first and have my tank how I want it.

There really isn't any reason to "fishless cycle" our planted tanks, just plant them and then add your fish, for the most part we understock our tanks and overfilter them for flow for the plants, fish are the simplest part. 

Stepping off the soap box now,
-Andrew


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## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

I guess we will have to agree to disagree in this instance. I certainly agree that using plants and seeding the tank with media from an established filter work very well. But I still never recommend using fish to cycle a tank, especially when you may have newcomers to the hobby reading it and thinking it's OK to toss some fish into a tank and let it cycle. I prefer to err on the side of caution as much as possible when dealing with living creatures.


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## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

wendyjo said:


> i guess we will have to agree to disagree in this instance. I certainly agree that using plants and seeding the tank with media from an established filter work very well. But i still never recommend using fish to cycle a tank, especially when you may have newcomers to the hobby reading it and thinking it's ok to toss some fish into a tank and let it cycle. I prefer to err on the side of caution as much as possible when dealing with living creatures.


^^^^

+1


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## mlh7n (Jun 14, 2010)

Wow, I didn't mean to start a whole fish vs. fishless cycling thing, which I totally understand people disagree about. I agree if you are going to do it go slow and monitor closely. I was actually just concerned about the temporary higher pH from the eco-complete being harmful to the zanios. Thanks redconf35 for responding to that.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Why don't you go ahead and do the water changes to bring the pH back in line with your tap water before you add the fish?

It's not the high pH that would really be the problem here- it's the fluctuating pH and hardness when you do your water changes that could be problematic.

And using a few zebra danios to cycle a 55gal tank won't subject them to nearly the toxic ammonia and nitrite levels that they'd experience if the same # of fish were used to cycle a 10gal tank- IMO it's much, much easier to maintain a "humane" fish-in cycle on a big tank than a small one since wastes are so much more diluted by the larger volume of water.


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## mlh7n (Jun 14, 2010)

@lauralellbp, as I said earlier in the thread, I did some water changes before putting the danios in there and the pH came down, so I went ahead. And I totally agree about the difference between trying to control waste in a 10g versus a 55g. that's why its unfortunate most beginners start with a small tank (although completely understandable)


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