# Shrimp die during acclimation



## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

If you are doing a nice slow drip acclimation, then you should be able to introduce shrimp, unless your co2 levels are extremely high. I can't speak directly to brass and aquarium co2 injection, but I know that in co2 injection for carbonated drinks, you can only use brass pumps and fittings before the co2 injector. After the injector you have to use stainless steel, because the carbonated water will corrode the brass fitting and leach into the water, but we are talking a lot more co2. I don't know if you ph is acidic enough to cause the same kind of corrosion or not.


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

Sorry, the brass fittings are on the hose I use to fill the tank. The co2 is via a internal reactor.


My Co2 is very high though. Drop checker says light green/yellow PH/KH chart says 75ppm, I believe my PH probe is reading wrong as my fish show no signs of distress and the DC states it is around ~40ppm. I am degassing a bucket of tank water overnight so I can use it to rule out co2 tomorrow.


I have figured out my GH test is broken and ill get the LFS to test my water tomorrow.




Something in the water is very toxic to the shrimp though, its impressive how quick they are dying when I start acclimating them.


I hope to find out soon as I have about 100 Red Nose Shrimp sitting in a bucket outback waiting for their new home.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Acclimate them after your lights go out and the CO2 is off (assuming you're using a solenoid). This will give them a chance to adjust to the other water parameters first. Usually after this they can handle the gradual co2 increase the next day, but keep an eye on things.

Also, do you have any fish? If so how are they doing with the CO2? It could just be that you're injecting too much for livestock. Try backing down on the bubble rate a little bit, while making sure your flow is adequate. Oftentimes with poor flow high injection rates seem necessary because more stagnant areas aren't receiving sufficient CO2 while areas with better flow may have overly high levels.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Any chance of copper in the substrate?


I've read that for shrimp, CO2 should be about 1 bpm. I don't currently have CO2 on my tank but was considering setting up a system as it's a basic planted aquarium and shrimp tank.


What fertilizers are you using? I could be off basis here, but as I understand it, shrimp do better with micro nutrients since macros can potentially be harmful. And also, copper can again be found in fertilizers. I'm using Flourish with RCS which has minutes amount of copper. That is, not enough to harm them.


And last.... what type of water are the shrimp in? (fresh? brackish? salt?) If the tank water is not the same as what they are coming out of, this may also affect them.




Last bit of advise.... feel free to disregard anything I've said. I'm rather new to the hobby and would defer to the experts. Just trying to give some food for thought.


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## MCSLABS (Apr 19, 2016)

I would degas a small amount of water from the aquarium. If the situation arises a small sturdy vessel filled half way up with a lid that you can attach a vacuum intake to. The water will cavitate if under enough vacuum. Aerate the water immediately following then place 1 or 2 of the shrimp in the water and see how they do.


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## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

What ferts are you using exactly? Using any osmocote?
Happened to use any medications in that tank? Especially copper based meds?

What exact type of shrimp are you trying to keep? Red cherry shrimp, Crystal Red shrimp, etc?

Do the shrimp you get happen to come in breather bags (bag with water, no air pocket) and maybe you floated those in water to acclimate temps? (can suffocate livestock in bag if not opened)


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

Axelrodi202 said:


> Acclimate them after your lights go out and the CO2 is off
> Also, do you have any fish? If so how are they doing with the CO2? levels.


 and MCSLABS

I have plenty of fish and none show signs of excess Co2.

I took water from the tank and let it sit in a bucket for 5 hours and then put a bubbler in for 1.5 hours. At this point all Co2 is gone and O2 is high, I tried adding shrimp to it, they still die within the hour.

I can now say Co2 Is definitely not the cause.



Zoidburg said:


> Any chance of copper in the substrate?
> What fertilizers are you using?
> And last.... what type of water are the shrimp in? (fresh? brackish? salt?).


It is possible, the MTS substrate is a base layer of Muriate of potash (MOP) and Dolomite (CaMg(CO3)2). Then a layer re-mineralised top soil mixed with potters clay, then capped with sand from a local river. I have used the river sand in my last tank and kept shrimp, the top soil may be from a contaminated source? The potters clay may have had colouring mixed into the product?

My ferts are standard EI: Kno3, Kh2Po4, K2So4, MgSo4, CaCl2 and CSM+B. 
Both micro and macro are required for good plant growth, micro contains copper but at a tiny level, from what I have read even Shrimp need a small amount of Cu to live.

I don't believe ferts to be the issue as it is the same dosing I used to run with healthy shrimp but I have 10X the plant mass using it now so the actual water concentrations should be far less.

My Water is fresh, the shrimp have come from: a fresh tank in LFS, a fresh tank at the breeders, a slightly salty creek (still a fresh species). 



WaterLife said:


> What ferts are you using exactly? Using any osmocote?
> Happened to use any medications in that tank? Especially copper based meds?
> 
> What exact type of shrimp are you trying to keep? Red cherry shrimp, Crystal Red shrimp, etc?
> ...


See above for ferts at EI concentrations, no to Osmocote.

The shrimp I have tried are:
Red nose shrimp from local LFS (he collects from wild and converts from salt to fresh before sale) sold in bag with air pocket.

Darwin Algae Shrimp from the local breeder picked up in a bag of water and pure O2

Red nose shrimp I collected from wild and transported in an open top bucket with aerator.

I use an laser thermometer and all water sources shrimp are obtained from are within 0.8Deg Celsius of my tank. Its good temps are so stable in the tropics.

updated water parameters

Water:
PH ~6.5
Co2 injected at ~40PPM
KH 6.5DKH
GH 10DKH
No3 5-40PPM varying
NH3 0PPM


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## Mikevwall (Jul 27, 2015)

Have you added any meds to the tank? Sounds like a toxicity for how quickly they die. I don't think it's the substrate either.


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

No, I haven't used any meds.

This afternoon I took some left over substrate (the topsoil potter clay layer) and dumped it in a coffee jar filled with water from my shrimp bucket, let it settle for 1/2h then I put a shrimp in there. It has been 4 hours and the shrimp is still running fat laps around the edge of the jar when I approach. I think it is safe to say that substrate contamination can be ruled out, I will continue that experiment until tomorrow afternoon in case of slow leaching of contaminants.

I also got a tub of toxic water from my aquarium and placed a small filter in it full of activated carbon, I will run this for 24h then attempt to place a shrimp into that water in the hope of ruling out some more suspects.

In order to rule out Cu poisoning I have consulted charts and calculators, I set up the accumulation chart as if my plants were using zero nutrients for worst case scenario and beginning when I rebuilt the tank. That worst case scenario states I would have 0.0117ppm of Cu in the water, The shrimp I am trying are from the Caridina Sp. family they die at 0.072ppm of Cu which is 7X the worst case scenario from my fert dosing.


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## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

Great to see you are really trying to get to the bottom of this.
Do you have a link to where you got that Copper toxicity chart for various fish and shrimps? Never seen one of those.


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

I found it via "The Nutrient Company" website when looking at fert calculators. The info comes from the PAN pesticides database.
Aquarium Calculators | Copper Toxicity for invertebrates and fish in a planted aquarium

This link is Copper Sulphate VS crustaceans - 
Ecotoxicity Summaries by Species

This link is Copper Sulphate VS fish - 
Ecotoxicity Summaries by Species

The 2 lower links Cu content are measured in ug/L, I took this straight from google:

"This is the same as grams per 1,000 liters, which may be converted to milligrams per liter (mg/L). Therefore, 1 g/ m3 = 1 mg/L = 1 ppm. Likewise, one milligram per cubic meter (mg/m3) is the same concentration in water as one microgram per liter (ug/L), which is about 1 ppb."

So to simplify 1 ug/L = 0.001ppm

Also "Avg species LC50" is the concentration of toxicant that is lethal to 50% of the test organisms in that species.


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

I put 100ml of shrimp water with 2 shrimp in jar, and added 10ml of tank water that has been treated with active carbon in every 15min.
When I reached 50ml added the shrimp died.

The carbon failed to remove the toxicity from the water and the tank water is lethal at only 33% in a solution.

Surely water that bad would have an effect on my plants and fish?


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Might not have anything to do with it... but do you know what the TDS of the water is?


And what is the PH and GH the shrimp are in?


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Please test the water the shrimp are in at the dealer or breeder. 

If the GH, KH, TDS is significantly different in your tank this could be the problem. 
To correct this set up a quarantine tank with water that matches the water in the bag. Over a period of several weeks change the water a little at a time until it matches the main tank. 
This is similar to what you just did with the jar, but takes longer, slower acclimation.


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

..........TANK....SHRIMP

PH .....-6.8.......-7.8......(Co2 would account for that drop)
Kh .....-6..........-3.5
Gh......-10........-4
TDS....-Can't test but I know the water from all three sources is about the same and I have obtained shrimp from them before and just dumped them in the tank without an issue, unless my new substrate is affecting the TDS. I have started the last test using some of the sand cap in a jar with a shrimp to check it for contamination, if that passes I can rule out substrate.

I did an 80% WC this morning, the water smelt quite bad even worst than when I go away for a month without any WC while still dosing full EI. I will do a further 50% daily for 3 days .

My WC's are done with straight tap water and prime, I have about 100 shrimp in a bucket out back and I have been dumping straight tap water into that without any conditioner (just sat for 24h) in one day I tripled the volume in the bucket.

Are those numbers enough to warrant a 3 week acclimatisation?


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## heatherbee (Apr 12, 2016)

Can you or have you tested the gh/kh of your tap water? The gh/kh difference between your tank water and the "shrimp" water (I am assuming that is the source water they came from but maybe that is your tap or combo of the 2 at this point) is definitely a huge difference when it comes to shrimp.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

From my understanding, GH and TDS "kind of" go hand in hand... i.e. the higher the GH, the higher the TDS. However, it is possible to alter GH without changing TDS? (still learning about GH, KH and TDS)


I was thinking that perhaps the difference between the two is too great for the shrimp to handle. Even if you say the water from all sources is "about the same", it doesn't account for the different total dissolved solids... Does your LFS dose ferts in their tanks? If they are, are they dosing the same as you are? Or less? More? Although the wild shrimp do live in water where there is a lot of decaying material and the nutrients and minerals from the soil add to the water, if they are in a stream, that constant "fresh water" running through can keep those things down as compared to living in a pool that may not be receiving as much "fresh water".


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

heatherbee said:


> Can you or have you tested the gh/kh of your tap water? The gh/kh difference between your tank water and the "shrimp" water (I am assuming that is the source water they came from but maybe that is your tap or combo of the 2 at this point) is definitely a huge difference when it comes to shrimp.



Tap water is 1gh and 1 kh, I will slowly adjust the buckets gh/kh and see what happens.



Zoidburg said:


> Does your LFS dose ferts in their tanks? If they are, are they dosing the same as you are? Or less? More? Although the wild shrimp do live in water where there is a lot of decaying material and the nutrients and minerals from the soil add to the water, if they are in a stream, that constant "fresh water" running through can keep those things down as compared to living in a pool that may not be receiving as much "fresh water".



They do not fertilise the water, I have also seen them fill up their tanks straight from a garden hose. This particular batch of shrimp in the bucket come from a clear flowing stream which turns to salt tidal a few kms downstream.


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

I took some water from the aquarium post WC, the ph/kh/gh still vastly different from the shrimp bucket. I the very roughly acclimated 2 shrimp to it and within the hour had them in 100% tank water.

That ruled out the change in water parameters killing them, it must be something in the water killing them. Although the water seems ok now I would love to find out what the cause as it is likely to come back.

So to summarise:
Very fast death
Not Co2
Not water parameter shock
Not Substrate contamination
Not Ammonia or Nitrate
Lethality not reduced by carbon

Any ideas?

Edit- 5 hours later and the shrimp are dead. The water post WC still kills but at a much slower rate. Tomorrow morning I will try very slow acclimation.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

Jok178 said:


> and MCSLABS
> 
> I took water from the tank and let it sit in a bucket for 5 hours and then put a bubbler in for 1.5 hours. At this point all Co2 is gone and O2 is high, I tried adding shrimp to it, they still die within the hour.





Jok178 said:


> I put 100ml of shrimp water with 2 shrimp in jar, and added 10ml of tank water that has been treated with active carbon in every 15min.
> When I reached 50ml added the shrimp died.





Jok178 said:


> I have about 100 shrimp in a bucket out back and I have been dumping straight tap water into that without any conditioner (just sat for 24h) in one day I tripled the volume in the bucket.





Jok178 said:


> I took some water from the aquarium post WC, the ph/kh/gh still vastly different from the shrimp bucket. I the very roughly acclimated 2 shrimp to it and within the hour had them in 100% tank water.
> 
> 
> Edit- 5 hours later and the shrimp are dead. The water post WC still kills but at a much slower rate. Tomorrow morning I will try very slow acclimation.



From what I read above, your tap water is ruled out as a problem. This leaves only your substrate, or something you added to the tank. When you set up the tank was it new?


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

The tank was not new, its my usual lounge room tank. I just pulled everything out 2 weeks ago, put in new substrate, some new and old plants, and 30% of old water, I did not touch the filter.

I have a jar with some of the soil section and a jar with some of the sand section outside, a shrimp living happily in both. I have not tested the substrate layer with Dolomite and Muriate of Potash as excess Dolomite saturation would cause a GH spike (not seen) and excess MOP is not present as plants have minor K deficiency. To cover all bases I will start a 3rd jar with those two minerals inside and throw in a shrimp.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

I am a little suspect of the Muriate of Potash, 60% potassium, 40% chloride. Granted, chloride is not chlorine, and chloride is a necessary micro-nutrient, but there is quite a bit of debate out there about the build up of chloride from this product. Interesting to see how your test goes.


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## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

Given how quickly the shrimp die, it must be something toxic in the water/tank.

I would set aside a bucket of tap water and just acclimate the shrimp using only the tap water, not the tank water. If the shrimp still die acclimating to only dechlorinated tap water, then your tap water has some contaminant.

You could use remineralized R/O water as an alternative.

Even though the fish and plants do fine, they usually are more hardy than shrimp and different chemicals can be a lot more harmful to shrimp when those same chemical concentrations would not cause any major symptoms in fish or plants.

I don't think it's due to differing water parameters as a drip acclimation should ease the transition pretty well.


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

livingword26 said:


> I am a little suspect of the Muriate of Potash, 60% potassium, 40% chloride. Granted, chloride is not chlorine, and chloride is a necessary micro-nutrient, but there is quite a bit of debate out there about the build up of chloride from this product. Interesting to see how your test goes.



I actually was worried about the MOP when I was looking into MTS substrate and raised concerns on this forum about its use.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/29-substrate/992866-mts-muriate-potash-damaging.html#post8836778


I put 0.2 grams of MOP into 350ml of water, a rough guestimate of the ratio under my substrate to tank water. Shrimp death was very quick.


This equates to 268.6ppm Cl and 286ppm K. If those levels are similar to what is in my tank then no wonder shrimp are dying, but why would I have a K deficiency as well? I suppose it is possible that the 2 elements have separated, the K was too heavy and stayed at the bottom while the Cl has leeched its way through the substrate.


If this is the case it should be a simple matter of lots of WC's until the Cl level reduces to a safe level.



WaterLife said:


> I would set aside a bucket of tap water and just acclimate the shrimp using only the tap water.



Today I roughly acclimated a shrimp to straight tap water with zero treatment and it survived, I can rule out tap water issues.


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## leesto (Oct 15, 2007)

I had a massive die off due to green driftwood. What is in the tank ? Seems as though it isn't the tap and honestly the copper myth, despite being debunked multiple times, is still pervasive but feel free to disregard. I would start looking hard at what is actually in that tank.


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## Foxpuppet (Jan 18, 2011)

I reckon jump into a shrimp specific forum, someone may be able to spot your issue very quickly. 

Www.shrimpkeepersforum.com



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

In the tank is just plants, mts substrate, inlet, outlet, and a PH probe. I managed to get one shrimp acclimated today and he was in a jar of tank water for 12hours then I dropped him the aquarium. Tommorrow I am going to try acclimate a whole bunch and see if they survive 36 hours before I let them in the tank. The WC's are definitely reducing the lethality of the water and the MOP is looking like the culprit more and more. 

If I don't have shrimp safe water by Sunday I will take your advice and join that forum.


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

So I replaced the bucket water with tank water and the shrimp survived for 30hours, I then placed the shrimp in the tank and they all died. 

One of my glass catfish developed a swim bladder problem and died some of my fish are missing (presumably dead and eaten).

In plant world:
New growth stunted and deformed,
L. Repens old growth necrosis
L. Inclinata looking colour Nd.some leaves wilting like a plant watered in middle of summers day,
R. Wallichii short twisted leaves.
I think most of this can be attributed to the fact I lowered my PO4 from 4ppm every 2 days to 2ppm.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Start half a dozen or more jars of water, perhaps 1 quart jars. 
Do whatever you normally do to your aquarium water, but only one thing in each jar. 

Jar #0: Just water. (Do you use tap water? Or a blend of Tap + RO?)
Jar #1: A handful of substrate
Jar #2: your nitrate fertilizer
Jar #3: your phosphate fertilizer
Jar #4: your potassium fertilizer (I think this is what you were doing in the above posts)
Jar #5: a few rocks from the tank (if any)
Jar #5: a bit of the driftwood (if any)
Jar #6: Dechlor

...and so on, until you are testing each thing you add to the tank separately. 
Try to maintain the dose that is in the tank. 

In another jar, set up some water that matches the parameters the shrimp are in at the store. If I am understanding post #16 correctly the shrimp are in much softer water than your tank. Get some RO or distilled water and add just enough baking soda or potassium bicarbonate to make the KH the same, and just enough GH booster to make the GH the same. Make sure the GH booster does not contain salt (sodium chloride).


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

Ok thanks, ill set up those up when I get some more shrimp. I'm out now but I'll go collect some tommorrow or Monday from the local creek.


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## tapwater (Mar 31, 2016)

My 5 cents worth. Didn't see what temperature your tank was at. It seems shrimp like old/mature water. Obviously as a security blanket they need places to hide to alleviate stress and settle in. Floating lots of hornwort works wonders. It can be removed at a later stage.


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## randym (Sep 20, 2015)

It really sounds like something's wrong with your tank. 

The shrimp are doing fine until you put them in tank water. And your fish and plants aren't doing well either. Something's not right.


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

My temp is steady at 29C, I have had this type of shrimp healthy at 32C before and the pic shows they have plenty of hiding spots. The pic is a dusty looking as I took it with a mobile hours after WC and my GH booster clouds the water for 2 days. 

The plant issue is confirmed Po4 deficiency. I upped the dose back to 4ppm and left the lights on for 12h straight, in one day my L. Repens went from green to red and L. Inclinata started regaining pink tips and grew 2" in height.

My Apongeton vanbrugennii wont stop putting flowers up, I already have 2 on the surface with another two on the way, from base of plant to surface takes less than 2 days.


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## Buu (Feb 15, 2015)

What kind of shrimps are they? And what's your ph, gh, kh?


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

Local Cardina species:
Darwin Algae Shrimp
Red Nose Shrimp

PH:6.4, GH:6-10, KH:4


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## Buu (Feb 15, 2015)

Not sure about the Darwin algae eater... But red nose shrimp does best at KH of 1-2. 
And are you sure about that pH? Seems a bit low for your KH value of 4. 
Also try lowering your temp to around 
23-25C to prevent bacterial infections.


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

I'm not certain about the PH, I think my PH controller probe is on the fritz. I just set it to 6.4 because that is where my DC shows light green and I get good pearling.

Due to speed they die and the fact that the death speed decreases with water changes I don't think KH is the problem, although I'm sure its not helping.

I would love to lower my temp, I have an epic protein film that I can scoop with a net daily at the moment, but sadly I live in the tropics and my house is 30+ for most of the day. I get 1.5L a day evap from my PC fan which lowered the temp from 32-33C.


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## tapwater (Mar 31, 2016)

The optimum aquarium temperature for Red Cherry Shrimp is around 77-81°F (25-28c)


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## number1sixerfan (Nov 10, 2006)

Agreed with the post from someone earlier. 

At this point, I'd be less concerned with the shrimp acclimation and more so with the overall tank. Something just seems like it isn't right (fish dying, tank water odor, etc) and I'd work toward figuring the tank out rather than acclimating shrimp before other fish die. 

It's tough, you've done so much troubleshooting already.. do any of the remaining fish show any signs of stress?

Does you no good to slowly acclimate or isolate issues if there's some disease spread in the tank..


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## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

Given how rapidly the shrimps die, there must be something toxic in the tank. It's not a disease, caused from any algae outbreak/die-off, nor the tap water parameters/contents (even if the params are pretty different, slow acclimation, which was successful with just tap water, not tank water, would not cause these rapid deaths). It must be a build-up of some fert that the shrimp are sensitive to. Or some other invert-toxic chemical within the tank, whether you realize it or not.

OP, did you perform the tests yet as Diana mentioned in post #30?
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/8...imp-die-during-acclimation-2.html#post9195945

Is there any signs you can mention that you have seen from the dead/dying shrimp? Do they go in a panic attack, darting around, or do they stay still, not moving, fall over to their side, do they stay at the water surface, do they turn different colors, does their tissue turn milky white, or does their blood turn a different color, etc?


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

number1sixerfan - I had one Glass cat develop a swim bladder issue and die, other than that and the MIA there are no signs of stress inte fish.

Waterlife - 

The tests and results so far -

Jar #0: Just water. (Do you use tap water? Or a blend of Tap + RO?)
-Just tap water, they survived fine
Jar #1: A handful of substrate
-Sub cap, they live / Sub dirt, they live / Sub MOP, they die / Sub Dolmite, they live
Jar #2: your nitrate fertilizer
-Not tested yet, but I have used they same ferts and schedule with these shrimp before with no issue.
Jar #3: your phosphate fertilizer
-Not tested yet, but I have used they same ferts and schedule with these shrimp before with no issue.
Jar #4: your potassium fertilizer (I think this is what you were doing in the above posts)
-Not tested yet, but I have used they same ferts and schedule with these shrimp before with no issue.
Jar #5: a few rocks from the tank (if any)
-Nil
Jar #5: a bit of the driftwood (if any)
-Nil
Jar #6: Dechlor
-They live

Those tests were conducted earlier in the thread, I mean to test jars 2, 3, and 4 as soon as I get more shrimp. This may take some time as we have had unseasonal rain the past week which muddied the water. When the water is dirty I can't see big salty crocs sneaking up to make a meal outta me so I'm waiting for the water to clear.

Shrimp death observations-
Acting normal and feeding when entering the tank,
first signs are they move to the substrate and movement slows,
the inside of their tail starts going milky white
they start falling on the side
white spreads
upside down dead completely paper white


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## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

The death observations point to Muscular Necrosis. Look up "Shrimp Muscular Necrosis"
Shrimp Diseases and Diagnosis - Shrimp Health & Care - Shrimp Keepers Forum
http://www.shrimpcorner.co.uk/blog/post/18-common-freshwater-shrimp-disease-treatments
MANUAL ON POND CULTURE OF PENAEID SHRIMP
http://nsgl.gso.uri.edu/tamu/tamuh95001.pdf (Go to page 4 of article, or page 6 of PDF)

While infections can cause necrosis, I have never seen or heard of it killing a shrimp within just a few hours.
While incorrect water params can cause necrosis, I have seen many shrimp (even sensitive species) be able to live for quite a long time (many days).
If the shrimp were slowly acclimated (drip acclimate for hours), they should live longer than a few hours. Unless water conditions are extremely extremely out of range (OP says they survive fine in tap water).
I still suspect it to be some toxic chemical/fert in the tank/tank water. Maybe it is the co2 and/or heat (low dissolved oxygen levels in water/blood). I personally would still focus on test scenarios around those, even though you performed those tests earlier, maybe the tests had some flaws that rendered them invalid.

In regards to the above tests;
When things individually won't kill or seem to effect a living organism much, when a bunch/combination of stressors are subjected onto the living organisms, noticeable negative impacts can be observed. The reactions depend on the severity/drastic stressors.

The test above, may or may not reveal what exactly is solely the issue, since it may be the combination of factors.

Just to know, was the tank water (maybe same temperature, water parameters/chemistry, including dissolved co2 levels) used in the conducted tests above?


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

Those are some good links and really good info, Thanks that looks and sounds spot on, although the links often mention low dissolved O2 but my plants pearl so I have plenty of O2, the Muscular Necrosis must be brought even quicker by this issue.

The tests were conducted in the shrimps water with the test item added as it is proven safe.

I believe you are right in the fact it is a toxin in the water, in post #23 livingworld26 suggested the Muriate of Potash "I am a little suspect of the Muriate of Potash, 60% potassium, 40% chloride". My MOP jar in jar test 1 confirmed that MOP is toxic to shrimp in a large amount, the question is how much did I put under my substrate, is it enough to kill them? No way to know. 

After reading back over all the info in this post I am fairly sure that MOP is the issue here, everything else has been tested or proven safe in the past. If that is the issue does anyone have any idea how long it will take for the Chloride to leach out of the substrate and return the tank to safe levels?


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## alcimedes (Dec 7, 2014)

Just going to post here to say I ran into this this weekend with a batch of feeder shrimp. I have a 165g tank that's heavily plantd, the GH/KH and other water parameters are all things where the shrimp should be happy and thriving.

However, within 2 hours of going into the tank, I came back downstairs to find all of them dead, with milky white bodies.

There's almost no bioload in the tank at all (24 pygmy corries and three bristlenose plecos) and the fish and plants are doing just fine, but the shrimp I added died almost instantly.

I checked the TDS on the tank, and instead of the typical 180 - 220, it was reading 850. I'm sure the change in TDS was enough to kill the shrimp, so I've got some major water changes due, but I also noticed that my tap water was running around 500 TDS when I went to fill the 75G for the water change, instead of the usual 90 or so.

I wonder if something got into the water that I don't have a test kit for which is toxic to the shrimp but didn't phase the fish. When I looked, I noticed quite a few empty snail shells, vs. the thriving population that was there earlier.

I'm wondering now if I should be testing the tank/water for copper.

Oddly enough, every other tank in the house is still reading 'normal' TDS values in the high 100's to low 200's, which would make me think it can't be something straight from the tap or I'd be seeing problems in my other tanks as well.

As it stands, I'm tossing the water from the tank where it's reading 800+. I just wish I know *what* that 800+ was coming from. Seeing as the tank has been set up for over 6 months, I can't imagine the substrate would start leaching now.


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

From this website about Australian Cardinia. 

AQUAGREEN Fact Sheet



> be very careful with tap water and other chemicals, always prepare your make up water a week before you need it and keep it in a shady place in the garden where mother nature can add the final preparations to making it safe. The practise of doing a waterchange from the tap and adding chlorine remover as you go is not recommended.


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

alcimedes - Let me know if you find the cause, it sounds just like mine.

grampsgrunge - I get shrimp off him occasionally and have put them though the same water change treatment and fert dose as these guys with no issues. The last 2 days 3 species of plants have bad necrosis again in old and new yet growing fast with good colour at the same time (no idea how). I can say with certainty this isn't a tap water chlorine issue as during earlier tests I acclimated them roughly to straight out tap water.


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## alcimedes (Dec 7, 2014)

Do you have a TDS meter by any chance? I wonder if your water would also register high for TDS in the water. Without knowing *what* the dissolved solids are, it's not all that useful, but it's at least a clue of sorts.

TDS meters are cheap, and there's something off about this one tank of mine that has sent the TDS values through the roof, while all of the other tanks have maintained approximately the same values using the same water for water changes.


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

No I don't have one, and it's too late for me to order one now  I'm about to leave for 2 months and my tank will be on autopilot.


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## WaldoDude (Jul 4, 2019)

Did you ever figure it out?


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