# Lily pipes: why not just use acrylic?



## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

If they don't break then no one will be buying replacements. So less money for the manufacturer.

Acrylic might scratch from cleaning and no one likes to see scratches.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

ShortFin said:


> If they don't break then no one will be buying replacements. So less money for the manufacturer.
> 
> Acrylic might scratch from cleaning and no one likes to see scratches.


I'm not so sure that manufacturers would apply such a strategy. As for scratching, can you really see the scratches? I doubt it. I am curious why the plastic ones aren't more popular.


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## Da Plant Man (Apr 7, 2010)

There are acrylic lily pipes, they just scratch easily, and loose their quality quicker. 

There was a member, one_fang (sadly he is no longer on the forum) who custom made them. I am sure there are some places that make them, but I hear it is rather easy to DIY one. Maybe try searching [Ebay Link Removed]


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## hockey9999 (Nov 21, 2010)

I got a set of acrylic pipes from a member on here, fishman9809. I don't think he is taking orders at the moment but the pipes are awesome as far as I am concerned. Great price too. 

I've never seen glass ones in person, bet I can't imagine being able to tell the difference between them when they are in the tank. They are totally clear, free of bubbles/kinks etc.. they look perfect. 

I saw some rigid tubing at an LFS and picked it up to try to make a smaller set for a 2.5g I have... epic fail!


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## trackhazard (Aug 24, 2006)

Dave-H said:


> I'm not so sure that manufacturers would apply such a strategy. As for scratching, can you really see the scratches? I doubt it. I am curious why the plastic ones aren't more popular.


Planned obsolescence. Look it up.

Also, there is the notion of perceived value. You can have average Joe craft his own set of acrylic pipes and make a couple on the side. Average Joe will not be able to sell his for very much because other average joes will not drop a lot a cash on something someone else cobbled up in his garage in a couple minutes.

With glass, you can talk about artisans, skill of glassblowers, huge manufacturing centers and the like. All that adds to the price. Average Joe will not be able to cobble together a set of glass lily pipes w/o some serious investment on his part. Thus the perceived price of them is higher, even though the cost in raw materials may only be slightly higher. 

With the limited market of these things, I think most of the suppliers would rather build fewer and charge more (glass) than build a lot for super cheap (acrylic). 

My brother in law was thinking about buying a set of DoAqua pipes but was put off on price. I told him to make a set of acrylic ones himself for a fraction of the price since he's pretty handy but he doesn't want to do it and would rather pay someone else.

-Charlie


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## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

Dave-H said:


> I'm not so sure that manufacturers would apply such a strategy. As for scratching, can you really see the scratches? I doubt it. I am curious why the plastic ones aren't more popular.


These pipes will get dirty and when dirt are in the scratch lines, I would think it's rather hard to get it out when you can't put any elbow grease in like you would for a tank. Then these scratches would show. These are just thoughts since I don't own any lily pipes glass or acrylic.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Yes I'm familiar with planned obsolescence and perceived value. The problem with planned obsolescence is that for every actual instance of that practice in industry, there are probably 20 conspiracy theories claiming that the sinister corporations are intentionally producing products that don't last. 

In this case, I don't really see it. There are abundant examples of quality tiers in just about every category of the aquarium world. Further, it's not that clear that glass pipes 'break' all that much, and there is anecdotal evidence (i.e. frequent mentions) of acrylic pipes not lasting as long.

And as for manufacturers preferring to make higher-end products, that is certainly true about ADA but in most cases there is a cheapo version of every premium product that another manufacturer is happily profiting on.


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## NJAquaBarren (Sep 16, 2009)

The Eheim accessory inflow/outflow looks a lot better than the green. Will last forever and not require the cleaning effort of lilies. 

If you are looking at lilies purely for aesthetic purposes, give the Eheim upgrade a try.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

NJAquaBarren said:


> The Eheim accessory inflow/outflow looks a lot better than the green. Will last forever and not require the cleaning effort of lilies.
> 
> If you are looking at lilies purely for aesthetic purposes, give the Eheim upgrade a try.


That sounds interesting! But I'm not sure which product you are referring to.


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## trackhazard (Aug 24, 2006)

> Yes I'm familiar with planned obsolescence and perceived value. The problem with planned obsolescence is that for every actual instance of that practice in industry, there are probably 20 conspiracy theories claiming that the sinister corporations are intentionally producing products that don't last.


Everything is engineered with a product life. The manufacturer of your car doesn't engineer your car with the intent that it lasts forever (although they may market it as such). They engineer it to last a "reasonable" amount of time. When the consumer's and manufacturer's idea of reasonable do not match, then you have planned obsolescence from one point of view but not necessarily from the other. This is where the conspiracy theories come in. As a former biker, I remember when Shimano switched from using mostly metal XT shifters to plastic versions and being unhappy because the new ones didn't last as long. 



> And as for manufacturers preferring to make higher-end products, that is certainly true about ADA but in most cases there is a cheapo version of every premium product that another manufacturer is happily profiting on.


The cheapo versions in this case (Ebay knockoff brands that sell for half the price of ADA versions) are there. But they just have to price a certain amount below what ADA would sell their products for. If you were a manufacturer that sells to a limited market, why would you purposely introduce a cheaper product that has a lower profit margin unless there was a real possibility of making serious sales? Most people I know who would purchase lily pipes of any kind are rare, even on this enthusiast board. Maybe a few more would purchase cheaper acrylic ones but honestly, I don't think the market is really there.

I am curious as to how many units the guys who were offering the arylic pipes on the SnS sold. I remember someone on the board used to offer his own brand of glass ones that he thought he could get made cheaper than ADA from a local scientific glass company but he eventually stopped because the hassle of it was too much and the Ebay companies were pricing him out anyways if I recall correctly.

Ultimately, its the manufacturer's decision whether or not to enter into a market. We can sit and speculate for any length of time but not reach a solid conclusion. I would also be curious as to how much something like this could be made for if mass produced. I'm thinking pretty cheaply using some kind of industrial extrusion machine but am wondering if the production runs necessary to price the product low enough (maybe in the $20 range?) for people to not think of it as a major investment would be way too much for the demand.

Regardless, the price of acrylic is relatively cheap and I still think it is easier to buy a long piece and make a couple sets of your own at this point.

Sorry for the long-winded post. Its slow at work today.

-Charlie


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## trackhazard (Aug 24, 2006)

Dave-H said:


> That sounds interesting! But I'm not sure which product you are referring to.


Probably the Installation Kits. Semi opaque modular clear bars with dark grey trim.

-Charlie


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

Personally, I dont see why the acrylics would scratch if you cleaned them properly. My friend has an acrylic tank from 1992 that looks like new. Im sure people have lift tubes from their UG filters that are pretty old too. I am a fan of black backgrounds, and use black pipe. The glass ones are too shiny and catch your eye with light reflecting off of the curves so dont serve their invisibility purposes anyway. If theyre clean. When dirty theyre even worse. My vote is for sanding your Ehiems and spray painting them with flat black Krylon paint.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

If you want black, you can really just change the intake tube since the spray bar/return you could hide in the edge.  The Eheim installation kit will still show up very clearly on a black background since it's not really black but grey translucent. I replaced my green eheim intake with black pvc from HD. Nothing looks as good (actually nothing might be better) as a lily pipe on an open-top tank IMO.


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

Just get a glass set from e_bay for like 50 shipped, and don't be a bonehead with 'em.


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## scapegoat (Jun 3, 2010)

trackhazard said:


> With glass, you can talk about artisans, skill of glassblowers, huge manufacturing centers and the like. All that adds to the price. Average Joe will not be able to cobble together a set of glass lily pipes w/o some serious investment on his part.


i would say some glass test tubes, a proper blow torch, high heat resistant gloves and some simple metal tools would do the job.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

So, what is the deal with breaking lily pipes? Is it really a risk? Do you just heat up the glass and the tube and force it on? Maybe I shouldn't be worried about breaking it so much, but I've never actually seen one so I'm not sure


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Dave-H said:


> So, what is the deal with breaking lily pipes? Is it really a risk? Do you just heat up the glass and the tube and force it on? Maybe I shouldn't be worried about breaking it so much, but I've never actually seen one so I'm not sure


I've had a set for a couple of months now and have taken them off twice to clean. When you follow the directions they go off and on very easily. I'd be more concerned with dropping and breaking them than I would be taking them off the hoses. I bought a set of ADA pipes and they're pretty sturdy as far as glass goes, as are their diffusers. I doubt they're as fragile as a lot of people think if you just keep in mind they are made of glass when you handle them.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Good to know! What is the recommended way of removing/installing the hoses?


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Dave-H said:


> Good to know! What is the recommended way of removing/installing the hoses?


To install just make sure the end is wet and they slip right into the tubing. For removal hold the pipe and the tubing with your hands as close to each other as you can and gently push the pipe into the tubing as you do when installing it. This will break the seal and then you can gently slip it out.


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

I dip the end of the tubing into a cup of very hot water and then slip it right on...

To remove, just cut it off with a razor blade...


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Jeff5614 said:


> To install just make sure the end is wet and they slip right into the tubing. For removal hold the pipe and the tubing with your hands as close to each other as you can and gently push the pipe into the tubing as you do when installing it. This will break the seal and then you can gently slip it out.


That's correct. Push straight in and it should break the seal. If you try to bend it left/right you have a much better chance of breaking the pipe.

BTW. Is your tank topless?


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## trackhazard (Aug 24, 2006)

My wife ended up just cutting off the vinyl tubing in order to get the pipes free for cleaning. She went through 2 sets before she figured out it was easier for her to use a utility knife.

-Charlie


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

I use acrylic pipes from Onefang. he is no longer a member here. Mine are 3/4, which can't be found anywhere else. 

I used glass pipes in the past and they scratch pretty easily, too. It isn't as if you are moving these around a lot. Put on/off's on your hoses and you'll never touch the pipes again.


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## trackhazard (Aug 24, 2006)

scapegoat said:


> i would say some glass test tubes, a proper blow torch, high heat resistant gloves and some simple metal tools would do the job.


You have piqued my interest!

I may just have to try this although I'm more of a black bag/black plastic guy myself.

-Charlie


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

scapegoat said:


> i would say some glass test tubes, a proper blow torch, high heat resistant gloves and some simple metal tools would do the job.


I'd like to see you try. I think you've grossly over simplified this....


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## NJAquaBarren (Sep 16, 2009)

trackhazard said:


> Probably the Installation Kits. Semi opaque modular clear bars with dark grey trim.
> 
> -Charlie


These. http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=9606

Lily pipes look great when clean, but aren't sparkling clean for long, then are just degrees of dirty until you can't stand it and clean them.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

houseofcards said:


> That's correct. Push straight in and it should break the seal. If you try to bend it left/right you have a much better chance of breaking the pipe.
> 
> BTW. Is your tank topless?


Topless, no, I can only dream of rimless. The contemporary look of rimless tanks doesn't go with my wife's more traditional decor. I bought the pipes for functional purposes but have really come to apperciate the less cluttered look they add to the tank. Surprising, the difference in two lily pipes vs. 2 spraybars, 2 intakes and 2 koralias makes.


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## scapegoat (Jun 3, 2010)

OverStocked said:


> I'd like to see you try. I think you've grossly over simplified this....


i'm sure i have. 

But ultimately a test tube is a fantastic starting point due to it's shape, though i'm pretty sure the heat required is huuuge. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_melting_point_of_a_Pyrex_test_tube 800c for the pyrex ones, yikes!

However there are plenty of other workable glass items of the same sort of shape. I've purchased a cigar before that came in a glass test tube like case and i'm sure the melting point is much lower.

ultimately it can be done. would it be worth the time? probably not unless you've got the stuff and want to give it a try.

I stuck a beer bottle in a fire this past weekend and it only took a couple minutes before it was glowing red. not sure how long before it finally melted b/c i went inside.

acrylic is definitely easier to work with.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I think the market for lily pipes/filter overflows is just too small for them to be mass manufactured. We need different lengths, diameters, and spans.

The glass lily pipes are somewhat of a status symbol, like say a stainless steel canister filter.  Enough profit margin to produce smaller runs.

Fabricating acrylic filter pipes would be a good project for a hobbyist. Like prepackaged fertilizers, handcrafted peristaltic pumps, timers with multiple independent outlets, prefab LED kits, etc. So many possibilities. So little time. :icon_mrgr


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

NJAquaBarren said:


> These. http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=9606
> 
> Lily pipes look great when clean, but aren't sparkling clean for long, then are just degrees of dirty until you can't stand it and clean them.


You can take them off and put them in a tank with shrimp... they get em clean in a matter of hours!


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## swoof (Jun 30, 2010)

xmas_one said:


> You can take them off and put them in a tank with shrimp... they get em clean in a matter of hours!


I'll second this, another member on here has taken progression pics over a day or two of shrimp cleaning out lily pipes.


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## Jorge_Burrito (Nov 10, 2010)

I do some pretty basic glass blowing as part of my job and it is much more difficult then some are making it seem. The bending itself isn't necessarily the issue, but this level of bending will build up a lot of stress in the glass and lead to a high rate of cracking on cooling. You really need an annealing oven to do it correctly.


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## reybie (Jun 7, 2007)

Jorge_Burrito said:


> I do some pretty basic glass blowing as part of my job and it is much more difficult then some are making it seem. The bending itself isn't necessarily the issue, but this level of bending will build up a lot of stress in the glass and lead to a high rate of cracking on cooling. You really need an annealing oven to do it correctly.


Have you tried experimenting on bending acrylic?


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I know of a source (thedriftwoodstore.com) that should be coming out with some pipes (similar to corning ware) here in the near future. Not only will they be much more resilient than glass pipes but also very similarly if not less money.

The only bad thing about acrylic (IMO) is that it gets more brittle (so it seems to me) the longer you use it and especially if you are using co2). I'm still using some acrylic pipes that fishman made for me a couple of years ago. I have not taken them off even once for cleaning nor do I plan too!


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

I take mine off every week when I do water changes. Haven't broken them yet. I clean them using the ADA spring washer. takes like, 1 minute.


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## demonr6 (Mar 14, 2011)

getting some acrylic to replace the plastic nonsense that came with my ZM 501 from someone on another forum who makes them.. they look really nice. We will see..


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## Jorge_Burrito (Nov 10, 2010)

reybie said:


> Have you tried experimenting on bending acrylic?


I have not, while I am sure some of the skills would transfer, it sounds like bending acrylic is more about heat control. If you take glass to hot it will sag on you, but it won't blister or otherwise be damaged.

Just wanted to add if anyone does try some glass blowing at home be very careful, wear safety goggles and be prepared for shattering glass at any time, even after it has cooled and seems intact. Also remember that hot glass looks the same as cool glass and if you do some actual blowing instead of bending/sealing be very very very careful to not breathe in.


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## Sybaris (Dec 14, 2008)

doomyiwagumi said:


> I've heard that acrylic scratches very easily when trying to clean these. Is there some method of cleaning acrylic, aside from running a pipe brush through them - sort of like the ADA style brush? Could you use a bleach dip, and would a concentrated solution of bleach affect the clarity? What about ADA Superge?


On another site onefang posted that same video. The question of cleaning came up and on contributer said that they just soak their tubes in excel and they come out clean without using any tools. They said that over time bleach tends to dull the acrylic finish.


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

Thanx for that link doomyiwagumi and here's his plastics supplier:
http://www.tapplastics.com/

I love that spray bar he made.


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## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

Dave-H said:


> Hello all -
> 
> I'm getting tired of looking at my Eheim green tubing so I'm thinking about going for some lily pipes. I worry that i will break the glass, though, because I'm clumsy and I'm the kinda person who will break the glass
> 
> ...


Another option is clear PVC plumbing pipe. One such company selling this is http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?sku=34100


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## demonr6 (Mar 14, 2011)

I received my pipes and drop checker from onefang last week and installed them on the tank.. really nice pieces. I think I can deal with removing them on a regular basis and figuring out a way to clean them w/o making a hot mess and scratching them to heck. Even then I can deal with that because it simply looks better and takes up less space than the stock tubing nightmare that comes with my ZM501. If they need to be replaced in a couple of years I am still better off than paying a hundred bucks for glass pipes that I may break accidentally. Dunno, that is just my reasoning and certainly it does not apply to all situations.


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

doomyiwagumi said:


> From reading the thread on APC, it looks like he gets his tubing at a place local to him called "multicraft plastics". Not that it really matters.


Both are in the Portland, Oregon area where he lives. I might have to drive up there and check them both out.
http://www.multicraftplastics.com


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

Heck! Eugene is just 2.5 hrs up I-5 from me.


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