# Plants not growing and minor/medium algae problems - lots of details



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Fertilizing doesn't cause algae. Not fertilizing when you have plenty of light does often cause algae. I don't have any data on that partiicular light, but even if it is the same quallity as the FishNeedIt light, you have high medium to high light. If it is better quality you may have very high light. So, you really need good CO2, steady bubble rate, the same every day during the photoperiod. And, you should be dosing fertilizers per http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21944 Or, you can run only two bulbs in the light, and probably reduce the intensity enough to get by with your DIY CO2, but you still will need to dose some fertilizers. I would reduce the photoperiod to 8 hours too.


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## MagooWu (Aug 16, 2012)

*Reply*

So you are primarily saying too much light and not enough ferts?

Even for a medium planted tank, should I follow the fert regiments that the article mentions?

My main concern is how can algae grow if there aren't any ferts available?

I have been limiting water changes since nitrates are so low.

The article you referred to says that O2 should be added, I assume that since it is DIY and fish are OK that no O2 should be needed (even at night).


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Not enough CO2 as well. DIY is good for ~10G - 20G tanks. It's not enough for the size and lighting you have. 

You can cut down your lights and go low tech or keep the lights and buy pressurized CO2 and dose the estimated Index method.


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## MagooWu (Aug 16, 2012)

*Reply 2*

OK - so the solution seems to lie in upgrading to pressurized c02 and dosing regularly with method proposed above.

A few quick questions for this size of tank and pressurized c02.

1. I assume a 5lb tank, 2 gauge valve, solenoid valve, and better diffuser (currently going into the filter system) are needed. Anything I am missing?

2. How do you determine the correct amount of c02? I have looked and haven't found an end-all-be-all guide.

3. IF I add pressurized c02, do regular dosing per the EI method, is there anything additional I need to do to remove the current algae?

You answers were and are greatly appreciated. 




Some points of discussion, currently getting 1-2 bubbles per second w/ two 3-liters of DIY c02. How far short am I falling because I have never seen any decent growth in the tank.

Would Excel be a viable solution in the meantime?

Should I be dosing with Flourish and Flourish iron in the meantime? (plan to move to the dry ferts and follow the regimen specified.


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## chew (May 18, 2012)

The best way to determine the correct amount of co2 is watching how your plants react or how your fish react to it being almost too much. But if your new to co2 best/easiest way is a drop checker; drop checker turns yellow/green/blue depending on how much co2 you have in the tank


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

MagooWu said:


> 3. IF I add pressurized c02, do regular dosing per the EI method, is there anything additional I need to do to remove the current algae?


Yes. Add more plants. It helps to have some fast growing stems in the tank to fend off algae.

Keep this in mind when you worry about algae: the very best way to combat algae is to have a tank filled with healthy growing plants. They will out-compete the algae. Algae grows when a tank is having problems with the plants, just like you're experiencing now. What people tend to do is focus on the algae, often at the expense of the plants. The plants get worse which only helps the algae. This is the wrong way to go about it. Instead, when you see algae, focus on getting the tank filled with healthy plants which may include increasing CO2, ferts, and plant mass.

So while you're working on adding pressurized CO2 and EI ferts, add more plants to increase the plant mass in the tank. Tanks in trouble often benefit by adding fast growing stems to help get things under control. When the main plants grow in more fully, the fast growing stems can be reduced or removed.


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## MagooWu (Aug 16, 2012)

Thanks for the sage advice. Instead of trying to go the pressurized c02 route, I'm going to try low tech for a while. 

Plans:

-cut photo period to 8 hrs (4-hrs one set of bulbs and 4 hours other set for better light distribution) [is this going to cause a problem?]

-dose 1/3 to 1/4 EI amounts once per week and skip every 4th week

-add a few more plants


Questiosns:
-they recommend no water changes for the most part, how do you clean the filters out then? (I guess I can keep an eye on the nitrates too and if they rise too much I can WC)

-should I kill my 6 liters of DIY c02? (they say c02 fluctuations induce algae growth, hence the lack of water changes)


I am really looking for healthy plant growth, doesn't need to be super fast. And not needing 50% WC/weekly sounds appealing on a 65.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Keep running the DIY co2. It couldn't hurt. Changes your water whenever you feel like it since you're adding [strike]cow[/strike] CO2 and ferts. I tend not to do water changes to tanks where I don't add anything.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

You should never add more iron than flourish. You probably don’t need to be adding aquarium salt either. You might want to get the treated well water tested so that you know what you are starting with. 
Until you figure out what you are dosing and why try adding 1 cap of flourish comprehensive every other day. Dosing excel will help also. Concentrate on getting the plants to grow and don’t worry about the algae for the moment.


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## MagooWu (Aug 16, 2012)

FERTILIZER QUESTION(S):

I started adding more Iron as the tips of the sword plants were yellow.
Should I completely discontinue for the present?

Now knowing that the light was too much (by 2x needed it appears) I will stick to 1 cap excel/day and 1 cap flourish every 2 days.


I have ordered some dry ferts and would like to start on those (either now or when current liquid supply runs out).

As it says you should dose 1/3 to 1/4 of the normal amount - I assume the 10/20 gallon regimen should work well (But only 1 once per week and skip a week now and then):

+/- 1/8 tsp KN03 (N) 1x a week 
+/- 1/32 tsp KH2P04 (P) 1x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp (2ml) Trace Elements 1x a week (going with Plantex CSM+B)

Thoughts?

LIGHTING QUESTION:

I am running the 6,700K 21W and 6,500K 39W for 4 hours as the back set for 4 hours.
Then running the Actinic 420 (4,200K - blue spectrum) 39W and 6,500K 39 W for hours immediately after than in the front set.
(4,200K was said to penetrate better as the lights are about 28" from the substrate. It also has a sharp peak at 5,600K but not much)

Is this a good plan or should I run the same set all day, replace the original all 6,500K 39W and run 4 hour back then 4 hours front?

Additionally it runs with bulbs removed - so I can run 8 hours with just 2 bulbs in the far front and back for better light spread.

Thoughts?


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Do you know if the water is hard or soft? 

Just limit the iron to maybe once a week.


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## MagooWu (Aug 16, 2012)

Embarrassing to say, but I have yet to buy a GH or KH test kit yet.

Just ordered one from Amazon and will get it Friday. Report back then with the results.

(For the first 4-5 months my water softener was not working, so likely fairly hard water. No idea now that it is back up and running.)


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## Jules (May 20, 2012)

If your water softener uses salt (as in NaCl), you'd probably be better off bypassing it when adding water to your aquarium anyway.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

You probably have about 30 micromols of PAR with only two bulbs on. Pick the bulbs that make the tank look good to you. For now, it isn't going to matter what their color temperatures are, as far as the plant growth is concerned. I use two 2 L DIY CO2 bottles with my same size tank, have 20-25 micromols of PAR, so a little lower than yours, and my plants are doing very well, with no algae problems. I dose per the EI method, with extra iron, at about half the recommended dose amounts. My CO2 bottles are changed one bottle per week, so I have staggered changes, and the bubble rate varies between about 1 and .5 bubbles per second. The CO2 diffuser I use is http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1886010&postcount=2 which is a very efficient diffusing method.

My primary plant, for now is Hygrophila polysperma, a real weedy, very fast growing plant. Soon I will be slowly changing to different plants.


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## MagooWu (Aug 16, 2012)

Hoppy, when you say you dose per EI method but at 1/2 the recommended amounts, do you mean 1/2 the recommended for 65 gallon tank and still dose per the daily schedule?

Perchance you could post the dose/regimen.

What do you do for WC's?

Good to know about the bulbs. I like the visual change so I will stick with the current setup. 

(no good way to bypass the water softener and get a decent temperature on the replacement water. All hot water runs though a softener)


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I started by taking half the dosages that are in the EI schedules. I multiplied the doses by 3 to get the total weekly dosages. Then I divided by 7 to change that to daily dosages. Since then I have tweaked it a couple of times, mostly as my plants grew greater in mass. Now I dose every day one ounce of premixed macro nutrients - KNO3, KH2PO4, and one ounce of micro nutrients - Millers microplex and chelated iron. My mixes are:
16 ounces of water, 1.5 tsp KNO3 and 1 tsp KH2PO4, in one bottle. In another bottle I use .75 tsp Millers Microplex, and .5 tsp chelated iron, in 16 ounces of water.

Once a week +/- a couple of days, I do a 50-70% water change, using tap water from a hose bib outdoors, and adding about 5 ml of Seachem Prime to the tank as the new water starts to flow in. My fish, which are all Platys right now, never mind the cold water, seeming to be invigorated by it. But, when winter comes I may switch to using warm/cold water mixed to get closer to the tank water temperature.

I don't think you can succeed using water from a water softener unless you also use a RO/DI system too. But, you could store the change water, from a hose bib, which should not be softened water, indoors for a couple of days so it warms up before you use it. I think I would try that with about 20 gallons of water per change.


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## MagooWu (Aug 16, 2012)

Thanks for the information.

WATER SOFTENER:

Did some double checking on the piping layout of my house, shame on the home builders - even outside bibs are hooked up after the softener. (Now it makes sense why I'm running out of salt so fast when pool season comes around.)

I'll have to bust out the old torch and add a faucet before the softener. Luckily the softener is in a closet ~15 feet from the tank.

FERTS:

Thanks for the detailed information. When reading how Barr does the low-light setup, he doesn't do any water changes at all.

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/2817-Non-CO2-methods 

Are you primarily doing water changes due to the added C02 and extra fert's?
(Even though he does add fert's.)

I'm just looking to establish a healthy and growing tank. 
Don't mind doing the work of water changes.

Seems like the soft water may be the big problem ATM. (In addition to rectifying the lighting situation.)


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Do some more checking on the water softener issue. I did some cursory checking and found some references that water softeners do not actually add NaCL (salt), just Na (sodium) which was said to not be harmful for fish or plants (not sure about shrimp). I didn't do enough checking to confirm this for certain, but enough to know that it's something that should be looked into further before getting a torch out.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Can you swap out the NaCl with KCl for your water softener? Your plants would enjoy the K.


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## MagooWu (Aug 16, 2012)

My GH/KH test kit should come soon. 

Would the results from that have any bearing on using the existing softened water VS straight well water? 
Or is the Na addition going to be a issue (or potential issue) regardless of the results?

[No issue at all in pulling the torch out. Maybe $20-30 in materials (copper T and valve) and an hour of my time.] Would still likely need to get some 5-10 gallon jugs and let it is sit for a day or two to get the temperature up to ambient. But it would be MUCH easier getting it straight from the tap considering easy of temperature control.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Complexity said:


> water softeners do not actually add NaCL (salt), just Na (sodium) which was said to not be harmful for fish or plants (not sure about shrimp).


Actually just Na would be bad  It'll burn in water!
But luckily it's not just Na, it would be Sodium bicarbonate.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

One has to assume that the water is softened for a reason. We can only conjecture that the reason has to do with high levels of calcium, magnesium or other metal cations and therefore that the water must be hard. We don’t know what the levels in the well water are and we don’t know what the levels in the softened water are. Answering those questions is simply impossible.


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## sphack (May 2, 2012)

Complexity said:


> What people tend to do is focus on the algae, often at the expense of the plants.


Been there, done that. As many like to say, fix the underlying problem. If the plants aren't growing, that should be addressed early. One reason plant's can't grow is if they're covered in algae. Physical removal (toothbrush, vacuuming, clipping leaves) enables to plants to start growing.

From your bulb list, it sounds like you have a T5NO bulb in a T5HO fixture? Hoppy et al, does this generally work?


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## MagooWu (Aug 16, 2012)

BruceF said:


> We can only conjecture that the reason has to do with high levels of calcium, magnesium or other metal cations and therefore that the water must be hard. We don’t know what the levels in the well water are and we don’t know what the levels in the softened water are. Answering those questions is simply impossible.


We can know the tests for GH/KH of the softwater very soon (per test kit), and can know the well amounts of GH/KH if the extra faucet is added.

Are you implying that it is "danged if I do, danged if I don't" since either I am using softened water which has bad qualities or hard water with "calcium, magnesium or other metal cations" impurities?

If YES, then is the only remaining solution a ~$150 RO/DI system? This would also need to be stored into large containers because of the amount needed and the slow production time.

If YES to the RO/DI, then would I still need to use the well for RO/DI or would the softened water be OK to use?


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

I am not implying anything. I have no experience with water softeners. I have no idea what the added salts might do.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

mistergreen said:


> Actually just Na would be bad  It'll burn in water!
> But luckily it's not just Na, it would be Sodium bicarbonate.


Yeah, that's why I backed out of my searches and originally didn't say anything. I knew I was over my head on the subject. :smile: However, I did see enough that suggested merely having a water softener wasn't the end of the story. Some people have found ways to make it work quite well. And given the OP's location is Wisconsin (cold!), I thought it might be worth a little extra checking so he can have hot water when winter comes.



MagooWu said:


> [No issue at all in pulling the torch out. Maybe $20-30 in materials (copper T and valve) and an hour of my time.] Would still likely need to get some 5-10 gallon jugs and let it is sit for a day or two to get the temperature up to ambient. But it would be MUCH easier getting it straight from the tap considering easy of temperature control.


Here's a number of other threads on this board from people using water softeners with planted tanks. Some offer ideas that may be useful. Even though the torch may not be a problem, there may be an even better way to go about it. It's certainly worth checking out while still in the planning stages. Then, if you go ahead with the torch idea, at least you'll know you made an informed decision.

http://www.google.com/search?source....226.2689.14j9j1.24.0...0.0...1ac.pMm4mv0XLYY


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Water softeners are added to eliminate the problems caused by calcium and magnesium in water - soaps don't work well, shampoos don't work well, etc. Softeners don't remove the iron found in lots of well water. Not every builder of houses knows the best ways to do water plumbing, and not all inspectors are competent. I believe it has been established that water softened using KCl instead of NaCl is still very bad for plants, so just switching to the different salt isn't going to solve the problem.

If I had to do some replumbing to get the water before the softener "ruins" it, and the point where I could do the replumbing was only 15 feet from the location of the tank,I think I would try very hard to run the new water line over to right behind the tank, so I could semi-automate water changes - just open a valve to add water. During cold months I would think about doing smaller water changes more often, to avoid having to heat the change water at all. Adding 20 gallons of 40F water to 40 gallons of 80F water gives you 67F water - not great but probably no problem for most fish.

Tom Barr's non-CO2, no water change method, is for very small amounts of fertilizers being added, so there is no chance of building up too much of any fertilizer in the water. Since I'm using CO2, my plant growth rate is much higher, so the plants need a lot more fertilizer to support that growth, which makes me dose enough to have to do water changes to avoid build-up of fertilizer in the water.


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## MagooWu (Aug 16, 2012)

Running the line to the back of the tank would involve some very complicated plumbing and 3-4 walls to go through. 15' is across the room as the crow flies, but I will keep this in mind when designing the future house.

I'm OK with adding the tap and just unrolling the hose. My wife is going to think I'm crazy for adding a garden reel inside our basement closet.

Understood with the WC for C02 and higher ferts. I must have read your dosage wrong as I thought it was very similar to the regimen from Tom Barr.

I'll get the torch out tonight, make the modification, try not to burn down the house, and test the well and soft water (for kicks). 
Might as well add a storage shelf in the same closet for all the aquarium supplies while I am at it (nothing pretty, as I keep the door closed).


Next step - since this is all softened water now, should i replace the current setup with the new water over the course of a few weeks with 25-50% water changes?


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## MagooWu (Aug 16, 2012)

Dry Ferts came (bought the spread for good measure - once test comes will see what to use for GH Booster if at all)
GH Booster
Plantex CSM+B
KH2PO4
KNO3

(Anything I should add immediately? Only doing Flourish (1 cap every other day) and Flourish Iron (1 cap per week now), Excel 1 cap day)

Torching Complete:


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## MagooWu (Aug 16, 2012)

GH/KH Test Results are In:

Well:
15 kH
15 gH

Post-Softener:
15 kH
11 gH

Current Tank Water (Was all Post-Softener):
15 kH
7 gH

So - does this assist in determining if I should use well water, softened water? 
Any additional steps to take with the water pre-water change?

Any help would be appreciated.


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