# Soil substrate -75 gal tank APOCALYPSE SOS SOS



## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

I messed up big-time. I'm new to soil substrate tanks and I started with a 75 gallon, oops. I used organic potting mix (mgrow) with a little dirt from a frequently flooded area in my backyard. I did not mineralize. I made a 1.5 inch layer of dirt mix and an inch of pool filter sand for cap. I planted a bunch of plants and 4/days into the project it's a complete disaster. Obviously I messed up not mineralizing, I saw posts online where people skipped it and I thought that fish were the reason you did it (excess ammonia), not anoxic meltdown. The gas is everywhere under the substrate. I pulled most of the plants out and put them in a tank I have on a screened porch to hopefully hold them for a while since I lost half of them to melting. I drained my tank halfway trying to vac the dead plant material out and I have an air stone going with my canister filter shut off for now. It's almost 2 am and I am exhausted and feeling defeated. What I am wondering is if it could be saved. Should I just take the plants out and let the dirt run its course poking the hell out of it? Leave some in and just keep running air (I didn't do that until yesterday) Or should I take all the dirt and sand out and set it the sun, re wetting and drying? Or do I have to start completely over with new dirt and mineralize next time (I am guessing that's the answer but I have hope). I realize that I rushed and I knew better. I get really excited about this hobby and I got carried away. My friends and family don't get it (the hobby) and think I'm obsessed. I don't know what's wrong with being really into something like this rather than watching TV endlessly or some other waste of time. The bad part is they were watching my panic when i was pulling plants out when i realized what was happening and and had a ”told you your crazy attitude" anyway who cares...went off topic, I'm tired.. Any feedback and advice would be immensely appreciated. I'm going to bed.

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## mik778866 (Aug 22, 2014)

Hi. The first thing I would do is stop panicking.

Secondly, since organic soil is being used, is to remove it and mineralize the same soil. There is great benefits in doing so, for fish and plants.

Just wait for a few min in case somebody has a better idea.

Regards

Muhammad




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## theatermusic87 (Jun 22, 2014)

Also just because there are bubbles coming from the substrate doesn't mean it's bad... 4 days is hella fast for anoxic areas to develop. More than likely just traped air working is way out of the substrate. I have 2 dirt capped tanks that I didn't mineralize and have had no issues at all


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

I dont think I would rip everything up. This has been dealt with before. When you pulled the plants did you pull a bunch of dirt up with them? What type and how much plant mass do you have? I am curious if you did an ammonia test to see how much ammonia is actually in the water? Rather than pulling everything, which I have done before and is a major pita, if the ammonia is that high why not do some basic water changes? You can also pre-seed the tank with bb with something like tetra safe-start but this probably isnt necessary either. The soil bubbling is normal, especially if you didnt pack it down and it was just placed very loosely in the tank. I wouldnt panic as you will just create a lot more work than is necessary. I believe this is a manageable issue.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

Thank you very much for your replies. When I tested the water a couple of days ago nitrite and nitrate were at 0ppm but ammonia was at 2 ppm. So in order to get nitrates in the water I seeded the tank with ceramic filter media and porous lava rock from an established tank to jump start it in bb. The next day I got a .25 reading of nitrite and I added more lava rock from the other tank. The bubbles do have the gassy smell when I poke the substrate so I assumed that it's anoxic and fubar because I packed it in loosely and didn't mineralize it. When I pulled up some plants a little dirt was released here and there. If it is manageable where would I go from here? The tank is drained about 30 percent and still could use more vacuuming to remove dead plant matter. I will vac it some more removing more dead matter right now until I know more. BTW, I have air running into the tank ATM and have had it running all night, if that makes a differwnce.

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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

To answer the question regarding plants in the tank, the bottom of picture with the addition of crypts, micro sword and a lot of jungle vals. My friend and I went to our LFS and they had a bunch of plants in that I didn't know much about, he decided to buy the whole lot and offered a bunch of them to me so I would have a lot to start off with https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6EMaSHmGrlNM096ZWRnWDV0MGs/view?usp=drivesdk

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## snakeybird (May 19, 2014)

I am unclear from your original post if the potting mix and dirt was soaked and wet when you put in the tank, or if you put it in dry and capped with pool filter sand? 

If your tank truly smells foul, like rotten eggs for example, then yes, you likely have anaerobic conditions in your substrate. Otherwise, the gas bubbles coming out of the potting soil are likely a normal, if messy, part of the process. 

I set up my first dirted tank in February, and did not mineralize. In my limited experience, it takes quite a while for the substrate to settle; plus, I don't think my dirted tank is ever going to be totally pristine substrate wise, but it is vey natural, the plants are happy, and my serape tetras seem to enjoy it. It may take a month or two for the water chemistry to settle. Personally, I found I needed to be patient with the process, but it is really starting to pay off.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

I soaked the dirt first before putting it in. I just filled up buckets with dirt and water, mixed it up and put it in. So now that it's clear that it's not just normal air pockets but gas, what would you suggest?

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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

I think you overreacted a bit. The initial ammonia spike is normal depending on how much partially decayed organics are in the soil or potting mix you're using. If anything, you could of just kept on doing some 50% water changes to bring the ammonia down then added some fast growing plants once the ammonia stayed steady at 1.0ppm.


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

Just keep poking the substrate. I would toss a few trumpet snails in there as well.

Bump: One more thing. Patience, patience, patience. I takes awhile for things to settle and really take off. The plants have to settle in, the water conditions as far as ph, gh, kh, etc are most likely different than the lfs. There is the shock of being moved. Any chance you can post some pics of the plants?


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

I'm going to do some poking and drain off a little more water and vac the remaining dead material out. Yes I will post some pics of the plants but I'm having trouble posting the pics at the moment using Tapatalk

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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

The ones in the clear tank is a 75 gal on my screened in porch running a Marineland emperor with a few goldfish for nitrates. It's where I'm stashing the plants for now until I get a handle on the situation. The murky tank in the 75 soil tank. It's a little brown from driftwood right now and half drained.

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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

I would recommend some purigen to get rid of the tannins and organics. Get some floaters to soak up excess nutrients from the water column. Get some mts to keep the soil from going anaerobic. Keep up with water changes. You will soon be on your way. Oh and go ahead and fill the tank up lol.


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## snakeybird (May 19, 2014)

Monrankim, 

OK, I used the same potting mix in February. If memory serves, it has a lot of peat in it, and peat takes a long time (days, maybe weeks) to fully hydrate and stop trying to float. So, if it was a quick soak, then it isn't surprising if air bubbles are trapped and the dirt is trying to escape from under the sand (I am guessing you have dirt clouding your tank?)! Poking the substrate will help release the gas. Plus, I know ammonia is often high for around the first month with fresh potting mix; water changes are your friend. To reiterate thedood, patience, patience, patience.

In terms of the dead plants, some die off or melting is pretty standard for some species of plants (such as crypts) when you first plant them. My vals actually melted too. Plus, you don't know how the plants were handled before you got them; it may take some time for the plants to readjust to your tank, and this is a normal part of the process. If you have stem plants, they just loose leaves now and then, even when well established. If your plants still look alive, and are not entirely slimy mush, even if only the stems or roots look good, then they have a good chance of recovering after adjusting to your tank. Water changes, 6-8 hours of light, and patience, patience, patience

If your plants are entirely mush, or a rotten egg smell comes from the gas bubbles (tell us if this is going on because hydrogen sulfide is TOXIC, I almost knocked myself out with an anaerobic substrate years ago), then that is different, but otherwise, my best advice is take a deep breath or 2, learn from the process, and cultivate, you guessed it, patience. An adult beverage is, if age appropriate, optional

Photos will help when you are able to upload them. Also, do you know the temperature and basic water chemistry parameters of your tank?


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

I just added this to the filter last night for the tannins. I was told by LFS that it's really good carbon

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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

Is there any cons to MTS that I should worry about?

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## snakeybird (May 19, 2014)

Ahh, you got the photos up before I completed my post. I think you are in pretty good shape; from what I can see the plants look OK at this point; all your hard work must be paying off. 

A lot of fish actually like some tannins from the driftwood, for what it's worth.


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

Monrankim said:


> Is there any cons to MTS that I should worry about?
> 
> Sent from my Z813 using Tapatalk


I would read up on carbon vs purigen. In our planted tanks purigen is much better. Purigen is rechargeable where as carbon is used up in a week or two. I have two packs of purigen for every tank and I swap them out every time I clean the canister, about once a month I rinse out my sponges and bio media in tank water and swap the purigen. A 100ml pack of purigen is good for 100g tank. Two 100ml bags is about 17 bucks shipped and if taken care of lasts quite awhile, a lot longer than 17 bucks worth of carbon. It also does a much better job of eliminating organic wastes from the water. 

As long as you dont over feed mts are beneficial to the planted tank. They keep the soil from forming anaerobic pockets. They also consume dead plant matter from the tank. If you over feed they will multiply like crazy.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

I'm calling around trying to find MTS right now. I have one on the phone now and they said that they only have "nuisance" trumpet snails but not red Malaysian trumpets. Is the nuisance ones the kind that will do the job? Also I will look into purigen as well. Thank you for the advice

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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

They always call trump snails nuisance as most people think they are a nuisance not realizing what they do. Look up trumpet snails and make sure thats what you are getting. I myself did not worry about color I worried would they do the job.

Bump: One other thing. Notice that the label on the carbon says low phosphate output. We want phosphates to a degree, they are a nutrient. This is one of the advantages of purigen as it does not remove nutrients.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

I'm sold on them, I really don't want to tear down this tank. How many should I get? It's a 75 gal

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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

I think thats personal preference, there is no magical amount. I tossed 4 or 5 in my 75g when I started it.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

Every time I touch the substrate gas comes up so I'm hoping that they do their job and get things under control or at least help. I figured I would need a dozen for all the work they would need to do lol

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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

Another thing I was not clear on was if the plants I have left in there are going to get suffocated by their roots. It's clear that the bacteria is going crazy with the organics and consuming a lot of oxygen.

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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

My guess is fill the tank, keep the flow up, perform some water changes and they will be fine. Keep poking the sub and get some mts. You can start with a dozen mts, more than that if you want and then cull them later on if you like.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

Thanks so much for your input, you helped me out a lot, seriously. I filled up the tank by the way

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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

No prob, thats what we do here is help each other. Darn good community here.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

I agree, this forum is like no other as far as the caliber of people on it. 

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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

I hope you start a journal and keep us up to date on your tank.


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## mik778866 (Aug 22, 2014)

Hi.
This was an interesting read.
I am sure you will fing this article by Diana Walstad interesting as well.
It describes a situation similar to yours.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=90738

Plant Meltdown in New Tank


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

mik778866 said:


> Hi.
> This was an interesting read.
> I am sure you will fing this article by Diana Walstad interesting as well.
> It describes a situation similar to yours.
> ...


I had never seen that article, thanks for pointing it out. Looks like what we have been saying jibes with what was recommended by D.W.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

thedood said:


> I would read up on carbon vs purigen. In our planted tanks purigen is much better. Purigen is rechargeable where as carbon is used up in a week or two. I have two packs of purigen for every tank and I swap them out every time I clean the canister, about once a month I rinse out my sponges and bio media in tank water and swap the purigen. A 100ml pack of purigen is good for 100g tank. Two 100ml bags is about 17 bucks shipped and if taken care of lasts quite awhile, a lot longer than 17 bucks worth of carbon. It also does a much better job of eliminating organic wastes from the water.
> 
> As long as you dont over feed mts are beneficial to the planted tank. They keep the soil from forming anaerobic pockets. They also consume dead plant matter from the tank. If you over feed they will multiply like crazy.


I picked up some purigen and yesterday and I have it in my canister filter along with the carbon that I already have. I know that's probably Overkill but I already bought the carbon so it is what it is. One thing I was curious about is if it takes out too much organic waste would that not disrupt the nitrogen cycle? Especially in a new tank. Obviously I have anoxic conditions in my substrate which means I have an abundance of the wrong type of bacteria but what about my nitrifying bacteria? I do have a great deal of established filter media from another tank in my canister though.

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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

Monrankim said:


> I picked up some purigen and yesterday and I have it in my canister filter along with the carbon that I already have. I know that's probably Overkill but I already bought the carbon so it is what it is. One thing I was curious about is if it takes out too much organic waste would that not disrupt the nitrogen cycle? Especially in a new tank. Obviously I have anoxic conditions in my substrate which means I have an abundance of the wrong type of bacteria but what about my nitrifying bacteria? I do have a great deal of established filter media from another tank in my canister though.
> 
> Sent from my Z813 using Tapatalk


You will be fine. That soil most likely has manure in it. It will produce more than enough waste for nitrifying bacteria. How does the tank look today?

Edit: Plus I always put my purigen after my bio-media. I want as little particulate going through the purigen bag as possible.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

From the pic it looks like its clearing up. Going to be a nice looking piece once it balances out.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

Things seem to be more stable thankfully, I'm not really happy with the layout but that's not too important compared with the substrate issues. One regret rushing like I did and letting my friend pick out plants. He is a beginner as well and didn't take into account the various needs of each species. I was following the advice to heavily plant from the start and my friend was buying so I could hardly refuse. 

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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

Oh yeah you mentioned manure in the substrate earlier... I used nature care organic potting mix (by miracle grow) rather than what I see recommended a lot, organic choice (also by miracle grow). The only difference between the two is nature's care doesn't have the pasteurized chicken poop in it. You would think I would have has less problems going with the one without the poop, which is odd don't you think? Another thing that I don't understand is why the pH is at 7.6, when correct me if I'm wrong, the primary ingredient sphagnum moss is suppose to lower the pH. 

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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

I wouldnt worry much. Keep up with the water changes for now would be my advice. Tell us about your tank. What plants, lighting, filter setup, water parameters. Lets see what ya got and how we can tweak it.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

Anacharis najas
Hygrophila pinnatifida
Creeping Charlie
Cabomba
Ambulia
Cryptocoryne wentii bronze and green
Java fern
Vals
S repens
Micro sword
A mystery plant, as I mentioned, half the plants I didn't pick so I have limited info. 


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Monrankim said:


> Is there any cons to MTS that I should worry about?
> 
> Sent from my Z813 using Tapatalk


If I could figure out how to harvest them, I' sure I could get you 20-50 trumpet snails (yes, I tend to overfeed my fish, LOL).
I regularly pull 10-20 out once a week and dump them into the clippings bucket.

Guess I never thought about how one would ship them though.


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

Monrankim said:


> Oh yeah you mentioned manure in the substrate earlier... I used nature care organic potting mix (by miracle grow) rather than what I see recommended a lot, organic choice (also by miracle grow). The only difference between the two is nature's care doesn't have the pasteurized chicken poop in it. You would think I would have has less problems going with the one without the poop, which is odd don't you think? Another thing that I don't understand is why the pH is at 7.6, when correct me if I'm wrong, the primary ingredient sphagnum moss is suppose to lower the pH.
> 
> Sent from my Z813 using Tapatalk


Whats your ph out of the tap? If your water is hard it will buffer and prevent ph srop. I wouldnt worry much about ph unless you have some specific livestock that needs lower. Mine is just under 8 out of the tap and my stuff grows great. I do nothing to lower. If you keep your water conditions good you will be fine. 

I just updated my 75g journal. If you will look that is just under 8 ph water. I just read the label and that soil does have poultry litter in it.

Bump: LOL @Immortal1 I bet between the two of us we could send him enough snails for 10 or 15 75g tanks lol.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

My pH straight from the tap looks about the same. I mixed some crushed shell, just under two handfuls into the substrate to balance it. I guess that's why it's not any different. But thanks for clearing that up about the pH I won't even worry about it now. I was getting a lot of conflicting information from LFS (one of them), about water hardness in planted tanks. Doods tank looks amazing

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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

thedood said:


> I wouldnt worry much. Keep up with the water changes for now would be my advice. Tell us about your tank. What plants, lighting, filter setup, water parameters. Lets see what ya got and how we can tweak it.


4 t8s 32w each (2 6500k 2 GE plant and aquarium 3100k)

Jebao 404 canister filter with ceramic, bio balls, purigen, carbon and some lava rock from an established tank.

Ammonia 1 ppm
Nitrite between 2 and 5 ppm
Nitrate .25 ppm
Ph 7.6

Tetra 20gal air pump and stone 

80/20 potting mix and backyard dirt, 2 lbs red art clay, 2 handfuls crushed shell, small amount of salt substitute capped with 50 lbs of pool filter sand



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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

Thanks for the compliment. Certain types of plants and fish will not do well in high ph just like some wont do well in low ph. You can get into managing water quality, pick up an ro unit. My advice would be work with what you have for now, stick with live stock that can thrive in your water parameters which isnt as limiting as it sounds as most fish and plants can tolerate a wide range of parameters. Focus on maintaining water quality etc. In my opinion there is enough learning curve starting low tech and keeping things basic. 

Let me give you an example. I would love to get into raising some different shrimps. With my water I stick with rcs as I know they can handle my water. With my work schedule I dont really have time to manage water chemistry etc etc and I dont really want to. Some folks like doing it and thats cool, I would rather look at my tank than spend my time mixing water, testing water and maintaining it.

Bump:


Monrankim said:


> 4 t8s 32w each (2 6500k 2 GE plant and aquarium 3100k)
> 
> Jebao 404 canister filter with ceramic, bio balls, purigen, carbon and some lava rock from an established tank.
> 
> ...


Same lights I have which work very well on my 75. Are you running any sponges or floss in your filter for trapping particulate matter? If I may make a suggestion. I use a pre-filter on ALL of my canisters, every one of them. Its a great bio-filter, it traps a lot of matter before it enters the canister, and has greatly reduced the maintenance I have to do on my canister. It also extends the life of any sponges or floss in my canister. I personally use the ATI filter max series of prefilters. They have a wide array of fittings to fit different intakes. When I do water changes I squeeze and rinse them in a bucket of tank water and back in they go. Way simpler than tearing down a canister.

You have nitrite and nitrates so it looks like your seeded lava rock is doing its job. I expected a higher ammonia count.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

thedood said:


> Thanks for the compliment. Certain types of plants and fish will not do well in high ph just like some wont do well in low ph. You can get into managing water quality, pick up an ro unit. My advice would be work with what you have for now, stick with live stock that can thrive in your water parameters which isnt as limiting as it sounds as most fish and plants can tolerate a wide range of parameters. Focus on maintaining water quality etc. In my opinion there is enough learning curve starting low tech and keeping things basic.
> 
> Let me give you an example. I would love to get into raising some different shrimps. With my water I stick with rcs as I know they can handle my water. With my work schedule I dont really have time to manage water chemistry etc etc and I dont really want to. Some folks like doing it and thats cool, I would rather look at my tank than spend my time mixing water, testing water and maintaining it.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the advice and I will definitely follow it. I was actually looking for a pre filter and i definitely know what you mean about saving the can filter, my recent meltdown taught me a lesson. Right now I don't want to worry about co2 or RO, other than a very low tech planted tank I have, this is my first dedicated planted tank. My other tank is a 29 running about 1wpg with a basic sand substrate and root tabs. Part of the allure of a soil substrate tank for me, is that it makes up for lower light and lack of co2, at least according to dutinsfishtanks.com . I am going for the lush overgrown look and yet stay low tech. I really like your tank and I was thinking about switching to black beauty blasting sand as well. When I saw how much of a difference it made for your tank it confirmed it for me. I would have to look at your journal again but it seems you have mostly lower light plants (which I like), can I grow those in my tank? I'm running 4 t8s so and I'm wondering if I can have a mix of lighting needs for plants. I already have a few (Val, crypts, Java fern, ect..). Sticking with the subject of substrate, I figured that the soil would make up for the greater need of co2 due to the heavier lighting.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

I also completely understand what you mean about minimizing testing, mixing water, ect.. I work 6 days a week and juggle a lot of responsibilities and I have to be realistic in what I take on. Don't get me wrong, I think high tech is great and I'm not saying I don't want to do it, I do, just now right now. And I still have much to learn of course. Right now what I am doing us giving me plenty to do. For example I'm thinking about changing the cap as soon as the substrate stabilizes..major pita

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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

Soil will not make up the difference for a lack of co2. You always want light to be the limiting factor. If you want grab a bottle of excel or metricide. I use metricide and dilute it to excel strength. Excel/glutalderhyde is a carbon supplement. Those 4 t8's what size are they? I use two 48" t8 on my 75g.

If you are going to switch to bdbs (black diamond blasting sand) I would do so now before you start to gain balance and disrupt everything again down the road. You might be able to skim just the sand off and leave the soil intact. If you decide to pull it all go to the landscape or nursery place and get some of their plain jane topsoil or get some yard dirt from your backyard if you know it is pesticide free. Sprinkle some o+ (osmocote plus), a light sprinkling, on the glass and layer in the soil and sand. What I do is go around the outer edge and build sand up as high as I want the dirt deep, so maybe inch and a half or so, and about an inch wide (ignore the back if the tank is against the wall as no one will see the layers) then fill in with dirt and cap it all. That way you dont see a dirt layer. Some folks like the layered look and thats fine too and just as good.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

I have a shop light with 4 48" 32w t8 bulbs, two are 6500k and other two are 3100k. I have about 4 bags of top soil and some extra potting mix mineralizing in the back yard just to have it ready for whatever I decide to do. If I leave the 75 alone I will probably use it on my 29 if anything. I'm taking my time with the mineralizing. You can smell the manure breaking down in the potting soil and the flies are liking it. I am having a little trouble finding a good local price on the blasting sand and might just go with eco complete black since so far it looks like I will get it for the same price. I don't know if that stuff is just a gimmick but I figured it couldn't hurt for a cap. The black color is great. I have been skeptical about the excel really replacing co2 in a higher light tank. In my 29 my crypts and wisteria exploded with growth but apparently scientists don't really know for sure that plants really convert it to co2 during photosynthesis. But the results are undeniable. I'm just wondering if it really could compensate for no co2 if I run the four lights, not if it works. I do find it strange that it kills vals and algae. 

I'm going to have to look for osm. plus. I remember reading about it but don't remember much about it. I still have a couple pounds of red clay I can use too, do you use it?

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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

Also I forgot to ask you don't believe in the benefits of using sphagnum peat moss? They say that it binds with nutrients and feeds it to the plants. Typically with regular gardening they say helps with root development

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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

I personally dont like peat for two reasons. One is tannins. The second is it will drop ph some depending on the buffering ability of the water to over ride. A lot of what applies to regular gardening doesnt apply because we have a water environment. Dont crush your soil down so it is really compacted and provide some mts to allow some aeration, maybe poke it to avoid anoxic spots. 

Here is what I do. I have a spot that has clay rich soil. I grab a bucket full. I put it in a cheap aluminum pan and I bake it at 250 degrees for a couple of hours. Thats it lol, plus what I mentioned earlier about the osmocote etc etc. Grows plants like the dickens once everything gets balanced out well.

If this is a low tech tank the two 6500k will be perfect. Add some excel/glut and you will be golden on that end. I use clay rich soil and have started using cat litter in my dirt as well. Clay is high cec so it should be good. As for sand here ya go: http://carrollsbuildingmaterials.com/landscape-products/sand/. You might try that.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

Wow you are good hahaha that place you mentioned is 5 blocks from my house . Unfortunately they don't carry black sand. Using the substrate we're talking about and running two 6500 k do you think I could grow s repens?

If you have Clay rich soil you must live up north. I remember it well. All the soil and topsoil sold locally here is very sandy. Do you think that poses a problem?
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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

Mix it with cat litter. Mainly you are wanting high cec which cat litter provides. Or use clay lol. I use cat litter because it is cheap. If you do use cat litter use the el cheapo stuff. Dont get scented or the clumping etc etc. Walmart carries the stuff I use. I have s repens growing in low light in my 20 and it is doing well. Unless you want to go with co2, a dosing regiment, etc etc you wont want 4 lights as I think you will end up with algae. For example I added 1 32" 25 watt light to my 75g and started having an issue with hair algae. I removed the light and the problem went away.

One other thing. That plain topsoil will work great. If you like mix in a little clay or cat litter.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

thedood said:


> Mix it with cat litter. Mainly you are wanting high cec which cat litter provides. Or use clay lol. I use cat litter because it is cheap. If you do use cat litter use the el cheapo stuff. Dont get scented or the clumping etc etc. Walmart carries the stuff I use. I have s repens growing in low light in my 20 and it is doing well. Unless you want to go with co2, a dosing regiment, etc etc you wont want 4 lights as I think you will end up with algae. For example I added 1 32" 25 watt light to my 75g and started having an issue with hair algae. I removed the light and the problem went away.
> 
> One other thing. That plain topsoil will work great. If you like mix in a little clay or cat litter.


High sand content being a factor for local topsoil in Florida shouldn't be an issue? The cat litter or clay will mitigate it? Should I increase the amount of clay to compensate? That was one reason I went with potting mix (s peat moss) the first time around.

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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

I am definitely going to unscrew two of my bulbs and stay with two.

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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

It wont be an issue. You will find all kinds of mixes for diy soil and a lot of folks use sand in their soil mix. I would mix in some clay and call it good if it was me. Your main goal is something to hold the nutrients, something with high cec and clay will do the job just fine. I would not add peat or the like. What type of clay is this anyway (I should ask this first lol)?


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

Mexican red art clay, from Michael's art supply. Supposedly high in iron


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

That will be fine. Only use it at 10% or so of soil mix, maybe a little more but I wouldnt go over board.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

10 percent of weight or eyeball guesstemation? .

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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

Eyeball guesstimate will be fine. This isnt rocket science and I like the kiss method


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

I would hit the Florida forum and ask about the sand and where to get it. Lots of Florida members so you should get an answer.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

thedood said:


> Eyeball guesstimate will be fine. This isnt rocket science and I like the kiss method


I'm a big fan of the KISS principle myself. A lot of the time in life, less is more. I know cat litter (the kind we are talking about) is clay, but do you still only use 10% if used, or is it only the art clay at 10. I saw some videos of people using it as a primary substrate on YouTube.


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

I'm using a whole layer of it under my soil. Some folks use it as the whole sub but the quality varies and for some people it turns to mush. I think the issue with using to much potters clay is it has iron in it, I believe I read that some where but I may be wrong.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

To all that may read this thread of a neophytes journey into dirted aquariums, this tank was torn down and redone with the advice received here. 
75g low tech soil redux - tank journal


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Keep wiping the front glass, when they water is so dirty looking, lots of the particles get stuck in the biofilm over the glass surface making the tank look dirtier than it is.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

Nordic said:


> Keep wiping the front glass, when they water is so dirty looking, lots of the particles get stuck in the biofilm over the glass surface making the tank look dirtier than it is.


Thanks for the tip. The tank is looking a lot better these days







my friend has a chronic problem with algae on his glass. I don't really have a problem with mine and I'm using dirt. He's using Eco complete. His tank is fairly heavily planted too.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

I would turn one of those pieces of wood so it reaches up higher in the tank, maybe adding some moss or java fern/annubias..You can probably hide the heater behind it. And the person who came up with the idea to make green aquarium fixtures needs to be taken out and shot in public and the bill for the bullet send to his family.
The very flat bottom of your layout leaves a bit too much open space in the top, I think.
It does look like things cleaned up nicely though.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

Nordic said:


> I would turn one of those pieces of wood so it reaches up higher in the tank, maybe adding some moss or java fern/annubias..You can probably hide the heater behind it. And the person who came up with the idea to make green aquarium fixtures needs to be taken out and shot in public and the bill for the bullet send to his family.
> The very flat bottom of your layout leaves a bit too much open space in the top, I think.
> It does look like things cleaned up nicely though.


The what has been driving me crazy. I ordered some java fern and anubias from my LFS. What I don't like is how much space is taken up on the substrate. I've even considered taking the piece on the left out. I will have to see what you mean by turning it up higher when I get home. Please feel free to chime in on the tank journal, your suggestions are welcome.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

If you want to start a tank without mineralizing the soil the best method is to get as many heavy rooters into the tank as you can. Sword plants, Sagittaria, Vals, the really easy Crypts, Aponogetons, Criniums, anything that grows a big root mass. Those plants push a lot of O2 in to their roots and help oxygenate some of the soil to allow the natural processes to run. Move the Javafern and Anubias onto your wood, they work better as epiphytes. The anubias will eventually send some roots down into the substrate if it can reach but it doesn't need to be there.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

SCMurphy said:


> If you want to start a tank without mineralizing the soil the best method is to get as many heavy rooters into the tank as you can. Sword plants, Sagittaria, Vals, the really easy Crypts, Aponogetons, Criniums, anything that grows a big root mass. Those plants push a lot of O2 in to their roots and help oxygenate some of the soil to allow the natural processes to run. Move the Javafern and Anubias onto your wood, they work better as epiphytes. The anubias will eventually send some roots down into the substrate if it can reach but it doesn't need to be there.


Thanks for the good advice. So far it looks like I am on the right track because I have Crypts, Vals, Sagittaria, Swords, among some other things. I will look into Aponogetons and Criniums. I think that not having enough roots was the biggest mistake with the first go at this tank. I had acquired a lot of stems that were probably not the best choice to begin with and most were rootless cuttings. I had acquired most of the plants from a friend just starting in planted tanks like me. He had bought a lot of plants (too many) with out making selections based on lighting, setup low/high tech, ect.. I knew a little better but accepted the gift and gave it a shot. This time around things are off to a better start. At this point I am learning patience and waiting for things to establish while I make additions here and there, frequently. My understanding is that this type of tank can tank months to really start to take off. I am enjoying the process and journey so far.


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