# Iwaki Mesh Wheel for Co2 injection



## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

Decided to get on the needle wheel bandwagon to see what the hoopla was about. Being that I currently use a Mazzei injector naturally my needle wheel will have to to be top notch performer, so I skipped the needle wheel and decided to do things a little different with a high RPM pump and went straight to mesh.

I have to admit my Mazzei has to go after running this and it was really good but this is *definitely better*. I thought the Mazzei mist was small this takes it to a different level. Mist quality is excellent!


Here are some pics of a mesh wheel Iwaki that I setup a few hours ago.


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

:eek5: Did you make that beast wheel :drool: :thumbsup:


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Any fear of that mesh getting gummed up over time? Looks like its a prime candidate based on its location the way the flow enters the pump head.

Is this a solo operating assembly or are you plumbing something else inlinw with it?

What model pump are you using?


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## chuukus (Jun 17, 2008)

You arent messin around!

Do you have any pictures of the tank to compare the difference in misting beetween the mazzei and the iwaki mod?


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> Any fear of that mesh getting gummed up over time? Looks like its a prime candidate based on its location the way the flow enters the pump head.


I did factor that into the equation but it's not like this is a low flow area, some violent action is taking place in the chamber and neither is the mesh micron in size. I do have a prefilter on though and if clogging were to occur it's an easy unscrew a clean. I also did plan on taking it apart in 2 weeks to check mesh.



> What model pump are you using?


Its an Iwaki 30RZT 270GPH @ 36ft head, RPM 2950. I picked up the pump on ebay for $49 shipped and the 2 6X6 Flatback Enkamat from www.meshmod.net for only $8 shipped. So for $57 I have an *extremely efficient* Co2 misting method based of a rock solid pump and proven mesh output  Now I see why all the highend protein skimmers use the mesh and why all the reefers is into the mesh mods.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Solid. Keep us informed of the results over the next few weeks if you don't mind. Especially the viability of the mesh!


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> Solid. Keep us informed of the results over the next few weeks if you don't mind. Especially the viability of the mesh!


Will do.....


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> You arent messin around!


When it comes to Co2 I don't play...the type of plants I keep leaves you no room mistakes



> Do you have any pictures of the tank to compare the difference in misting beetween the mazzei and the iwaki mod?


I always had a difficult time showing what the mist output looks like in my tank under the Mazzei output and with mesh wheel it's even worse, seriously! I wont even attempt to try.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Looks very nice! How is the noise? I tried running the CO2 into the filter intake of my Iwaki and it was loud. Is this loud too?


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> Looks very nice! How is the noise? I tried running the CO2 into the filter intake of my Iwaki and it was loud. Is this loud too?


Thanks Helgy  I think I know the sound you are talking about but that's more of a swoosh sound if I'm not mistaken, the mesh wheel actually sounds like a Mazzei.


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## MrJG (Feb 21, 2007)

It does look quite beastly.  

So you have this hooked up inline with the return on your canister? 
Does it actually increase your flow rate coming out of the return? 
Any issues with the canister not being able to keep up with the volume of water this thing is passing?

Sorry for all the questions. I'm still in limbo deciding on the best option for diffusion and being so new to everything the plumbing stuff I tend to lose it on.


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> t does look quite beastly.


It performs exactly as it looks



> So you have this hooked up inline with the return on your canister?


Take a look a pic 1 and you'll see how I'm feeding the mesh wheel. Essentially I'm using the same in/out that was for my Mazzei.



> Does it actually increase your flow rate coming out of the return?


It does but barely. One of the many reasons why I chose this model in particular 1 being it's low flow. I have a relatively big main pump and I'm certainly no lacking in the flow department neither did I want any more, so the right selection was important. I'm also going to purchase this Panworld 10PX  to see how well these work as well



> Any issues with the canister not being able to keep up with the volume of water this thing is passing?


The water feeding the pump is before and after my CANS so no worries there 



> Sorry for all the questions. I'm still in limbo deciding on the best option for diffusion and being so new to everything the plumbing stuff I tend to lose it on.


You go with an efficient needle wheel / mesh there is no way you are going to look at any other method...well maybe Mazzei and for those who have strong enough pumps. When you don't have the right equipment misting is displeasing for most because of the size of the bubbles, when done the right way we are talking about a whole different ball game.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Is that a screw threw the PVC elbow:icon_eek:


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## Down_Shift (Sep 20, 2008)

Wow that is sickness


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Oh great, I've spent most of my spare time the last few days looking at needle wheel pumps and trying to decide if and which one to order. Now I see I can also try a regular inline pump and mod the impeller. Just when I decided I'd stick with my reactor. Gee, thanks.:drool: lol


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> Is that a screw threw the PVC elbow


Yea :hihi: Once upon time when I was adding air to the system I tried to screw the air input nipple at that location but the air pump wasn't able to push air in at that location due to the higher pressures there. I was lazy to make a new piece and I used a screw to seal off that area.




> Wow that is sickness


I agree the car is hot


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

So, these things look great, but what is the difference between them and a reactor? Is the misting better to have? I know that after a while the co2 builds up in my reactor, but that dissolves over night when the co2 is off. Any thoughts?


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## jgb77 (Dec 13, 2006)

Looks very cool. mrkookm, besides the great misting, would you say this mod is getting better/as good as results as a mazzei for getting the co2 concentration in the tank. What I mean is, does it drop ph as fast and effectively as a mazzei does? 
I think it's really great that even though you were happy with the mazzei you are still looking for better and new ideas to try out.
John


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

I would never go back to using a mazzie unless the tank was huge enough (300+G) 

-O


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

jgb77 said:


> Looks very cool. mrkookm, besides the great misting, would you say this mod is getting better/as good as results as a mazzei for getting the co2 concentration in the tank. What I mean is, does it drop ph as fast and effectively as a mazzei does?


Absolutely! I'm gonna say it drop sthe PH better actually because it takes a lot less BPM to get it done! I'm not sure about the needle wheel regarding this, but it can't be that far off, but the mesh is gets it done like it's not even trying...seriously!



jgb77 said:


> I think it's really great that even though you were happy with the mazzei you are still looking for better and new ideas to try out.


I'm like that  I'm always looking for better ways to get the job done. If I never tried I wouldn't have found this to be better ...right? 



Orlando said:


> I would never go back to using a mazzie unless the tank was huge enough (300+G)


I have to agree with you Orlando  You were the one who got me thinking about trying it too.




clwatkins10 said:


> Is the misting better to have? I know that after a while the co2 builds up in my reactor, but that dissolves over night when the co2 is off. Any thoughts?


 IME misting has given me the best results from my plants and with the least amount of BR (bubble rate). I gauge my efficiency by getting my most difficult plants to pearl and if I kill fish to do it. Reactors kill fish misting doesn't, real easy equation for me in figuring out which is better 

Regarding the buildup all the reactors I have ever built always ended up with a buildup of Co2 overtime but I actually like a little build up. I can't help but think the turbulence created due to the gas space as the water gushes in helps to dissolve the Co2 more, If your gas space increases more as the day go on then you need to rethink your reactor lenght.width or adjust flow.

I built many of all sizes and shapes as I tried to get the best Co2 diffusion possible! The last reactor I used was a 4" x 27" and it too had a buildup but not too much and when Co2 went off it took about 30min to clear out. 

See some (I built _many_) pics of reactors I have built, in the past. I don't want you guys think I'm just against reactors or don't know what I'm talking about...I have lots experience with reactors, you name it I've built it 


2in X 36in 









4in X 27in and a 2in by 21in 









2in X 18 Venturi Reactor


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

I have to agree with you Orlando You were the one who got me thinking about trying it too.


Good stuff Mr. Kookm  I think most folks should give these pumps a try 

Regards, Orlando


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

On the last pic, can you describe what you used for the ports for CO2 and venturi. The rigid air line has broken on me a few times and I don't know what else to use. What kind of glue is that? 

Oh and I've never seen a 4" reactor! I should have tried that with my Iwaki WMD40RLT. 

As I said earlier, I tried injecting CO2 into the pump and let the pump chop it up and then have the filter further dissolve CO2, but the Iwaki was too loud doing that. Now, I use my Ocean Clear as a reactor. What's your opinion of that? Seems like a I need a high BPS, but I have nothing to compare.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

The nice thing with needle wheel pumps is you get more then one benefit.

You get mist and very good flow  Both of these are important factors when trying to get the most out of your CO2 system..LOW Bubble counts is key, and saves you money 

-O


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

helgymatt said:


> On the last pic, can you describe what you used for the ports for CO2 and venturi. The rigid air line has broken on me a few times and I don't know what else to use. What kind of glue is that?


It's a #10-32 to 1/8th ID threaded barb from my brass check valve. No glue is being used, I just drilled a hole slightly smaller than 10-32 and then used the barb to create thread in the newly drilled hole. The black thing you see under the barb is a small rubber washer, it's not necessary, but I drilled the hole after I plumb the pump to my system and was lazy to take it off to do it the right way. While drilling I went in at an angle and though the barb is nice and tight the hole was a tad larger than planned, there was a slight leak and that rubber was used to seal the leak.




helgymatt said:


> Oh and I've never seen a 4" reactor! I should have tried that with my Iwaki WMD40RLT.


Using the 4in PVC resulted in the best reactor for my system.



helgymatt said:


> As I said earlier, I tried injecting CO2 into the pump and let the pump chop it up and then have the filter further dissolve CO2, but the Iwaki was too loud doing that.


The Mesh sounds like a quiet Mazzei and when I close the door on my stand I can barely it. The Mazzei on the other hand was clearly audible even after wrapping it with a towel to dampen the noise.



helgymatt said:


> Now, I use my Ocean Clear as a reactor. What's your opinion of that?


Not efficient IMO. IME having a reactor with internal turbulence gave me the best results, using the OC is not going to give you the same gas/water contact like what happens in a narrow reactor and more likely the reason why you need a higher rate as well.


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> The nice thing with needle wheel pumps is you get more then one benefit.
> 
> You get mist and very good flow Both of these are important factors when trying to get the most out of your CO2 system..LOW Bubble counts is key, and saves you money


2 very important factors indeed.


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

Looks like your Iwaki finally grew some chest hair! I've been more than happy with my needle wheel pump for quite a while now, may try adding mesh in the near future. Thanks for the write-up!


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## jjp2 (May 24, 2008)

I want to make sure I'm understanding how the plumbing is working. 

You have 2 pumps, in series, where the first is the standard pump which gives you the flow, and the second pump is with the needle wheel to chop up the CO2?

Does the flow rates need to be similar or that would not matter since the 2nd is not pumping water, just chopping CO2?


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## MrJG (Feb 21, 2007)

From my understanding you would want the pump for the needle wheel to match as closely as possible to your canisters/filtration pumps flow rate... of course I could be totally mistaken too. Haha.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

mrkookm said:


> Not efficient IMO. IME having a reactor with internal turbulence gave me the best results, using the OC is not going to give you the same gas/water contact like what happens in a narrow reactor and more likely the reason why you need a higher rate as well.


I don't get it. If all the CO2 dissolved before it comes out the ouput of the filter, what is the difference? Isn't a CO2 bubble dissolved in a Ocean Clear filter the same as a bubble dissolved in a reactor or with needle wheel/mesh?


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## rickylbc (Jun 6, 2008)

What's a good NW pump for the money? I'm kinda interested in making one, seems like it works great.. Is the OTP-1000 inline or submersible, any links would be nice? I need an inline..


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Was that the PF5 Enkamat you used?


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## aquanut415 (Jan 21, 2006)

how much noise does the pump make when running with vs without the modified mesh impeller?


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

eyebeatbadgers said:


> Looks like your Iwaki finally grew some chest hair! I've been more than happy with my needle wheel pump for quite a while now, may try adding mesh in the near future. Thanks for the write-up!


Any type of needle wheel misting has to be good so I'm sure you are good to go 




jjp2 said:


> Does the flow rates need to be similar or that would not matter since the 2nd is not pumping water, just chopping CO2?


NO the flow rates do have to be similar, but that would also depend on the tank size and even then it wouldn't be necessary. For example my main pump is Panworld 150PS so adding an additional pump similar in size for my small tank is a little nutty  So you see it doesn't apply to all situations. 

If you think about it, even if my meshwheel was only spinning to mistify Co2 (it does provide flow though even with the vanes completely cut off) the flow from my main pump is still constantly passing through the Iwaki housing and would carry off the misty water. 




MrJG said:


> From my understanding you would want the pump for the needle wheel to match as closely as possible to your canisters/filtration pumps flow rate... of course I could be totally mistaken too. Haha.


No... See above J 




helgymatt said:


> I don't get it. If all the CO2 dissolved before it comes out the ouput of the filter, what is the difference? Isn't a CO2 bubble dissolved in a Ocean Clear filter the same as a bubble dissolved in a reactor or with needle wheel/mesh?


I don't know either. I guess If your Co2 is getting dissovled as you say then I gues you have no issues then 




rickylbc said:


> What's a good NW pump for the money? I'm kinda interested in making one, seems like it works great.. Is the OTP-1000 inline or submersible, any links would be nice? I need an inline..


I'm not familiar with needle wheels and my initial experience witha Sedra 5000 (thats a different thread by itself) before going Iwaki was a failure due to leaks. With this said *I DO NO RECOMMEND SEDRA 5000* or any needle wheel thats uses the twist lock to seal impeller housing. These types of pumps are to be used submersed even though the box says inline. 

After my experience I would suggest the *DANNER pumps Orlando* is selling becasue if anything goes wrong you have a manufacturer to contact for warranty and it does perform well. The foreign made pumps especially from China do no carry good warranties so beware.

Any 3000+ rpm low flow pump should do the trick. There are some smal (MD-6, MD10, MD 20) Iwaki and Panworld (10PX & 100PX) pumps popping up on eBay ever now an then I'm gonna give a try. 



bsmith782 said:


> Was that the PF5 Enkamat you used?


No. I used the Flatback PF4 Enkamat.




aquanut415 said:


> how much noise does the pump make when running with vs without the modified mesh impeller?


The pump has no fan so it was barely audible up close without the mod and with the mod it makes a scratching noise. With my stand door closed and standing back 6 ft It's barely noticeable and my stand has cutouts in the back.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Could you use a hole saw to cut the disc and a dremel to trim the blades from the impeller?


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Jeff5614 said:


> Could you use a hole saw to cut the disc and a dremel to trim the blades from the impeller?


Hi Jeff, 

I started my own thread about the Pan World pump instead of using mrkookm's. Here it is: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/80620-pan-world-nh-10px-co2-mesh.html#post768009


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

gmccreedy said:


> Any fear of that mesh getting gummed up over time? Looks like its a prime candidate based on its location the way the flow enters the pump head.
> 
> Solid. Keep us informed of the results over the next few weeks if you don't mind. Especially the viability of the mesh!


 
Well it's been 12 days since I put this in service and during this time I have pulled down my system twice to make minor substrate changes, so if clogging were to occur this would be the time. While I was tempted to pull the pump apart several times after each change to inspect, I eventually got it together and held out after noticing no performace shift.

This morning after doing an overnighter on my tanks I decided to take the pump apart to inspect it, though I'm off by 2 days the kind of filtration load I created by the 2X substrate changes put's me well into the many months use.

See below for the pics of the mesh wheel, no cleaning of any sort was done.




























As you can see, the top pic with the leaf matter was all the debri and the only indication this was being used.

Other things worth mentioning:

1) 120bpm (2bps) is being used to give me excellent Co2 levels in my 90gal currently with the mesh wheel. 

2) Previous Mazzei setup was uncountable with mineral oil.

3) Test 4" x 27" reactor which was used for 1½ Months needed 7~7½ bps to maintain optimal levels.

Need I say more??


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

Here are some pics of the Sedra 5000 needle wheel pump. I was going to write up my experiences with it, but verty time I thing about it it upsets me so I won't even bother.

The only thing I will say is that it should not to be used inline due to the sloppy locking/sealing method and if you do, try not to put too much pressure on the inlet because it will give a little thus causing leaks (again due to it's sloppy design)


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I do not think you can compare a needle wheel to the mesh for this application with much lower Gas input.

Mazzei's are designed for higher flow rates.

Look at the trade offs here however:
You are trying to save $?

:bounce::bounce::bounce:

No..........the wattage alone you pay for cost more than any CO2 saved. Noise for a large pump, added heat(fine if you use AC during the summer), space for it under the tank etc. You can always add more filter, more flow, more atomization to the bubble and these should be explored, but..........within the context of trade offs.

Many times what might bug me or any of you, might be different, such trades might not matter. But this is DIY, it is louder, it is going cost more over time. It should be able to rapidly knock the CO2 ppm to whatever desired ppm you want and mix it well in maybe 10 minutes for a large say 150 Gallon tank from 5ppm to 30-40ppm.

Mist effects can break up boundary layers on leaves, stick to algae and pull them off. The finer this mist, the stickier it becomes due to water tension on the bubble, then it also acts to break up the boundary layer more evenly all over, but not as dramatic or as easy to see vs the larger mist.

I've thought about the mist size fractions and how this might affect things. The larger bubbles could help more, even though they are less frequency. They need to be small enough to be carried around by the flow, but not so small they do not have enough energy to break the boundary layer.

I really do not have a good method to test whether the gas in the bubbles is CO2, O2, N2 etc and how much gets dissolved vs retained and is actually delivered to the plant tissue. I could label the CO2 gas with C13 and do that and see. But...........that would not tell me if the gas was dissolved [aq] or [gas] in the phase once I measure the plant tissues. Nothing really measures well differences between this in water between phases. So that's a tough question to answer. But the boundary layer is less difficult and has already been done in some studies.

Still, a large pump is nice for production of mist, but...........they suck a lot of electric to do so. That's the big trade off.

All mazzei venturi, needle wheel extra pumps etc.........they all have the yet another electric plug and drain on your electric bill. Disc do not have any such trade off there, but need to be in the tank or in line(hard to get at and hard to clean and see).

I think the needle wheel mesh is a much better solution, although a DIY solution, than mazzei watt for watt and bubble for bubble, you lose in line pressure from the mazzei in flow, so you pay for that as well.

I've switched some tanks back to disc for a bit to test things.
They have more starting back pressure(mazzei needs a lot more pump pressure), but the gas pressure in the tank cost me nothing.
Through a mazzei or a needle wheel it does cost me.

But I have to keep the disc clean, but Tilex works great(much better than bleach).

Just make sure to look at the trade offs hereroud:

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

This may be a stupid question but would there be any disadvantages to adding the mesh to a needlewheel impeller while not removing the needles?


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> Just make sure to look at the trade offs hereroud:


Indeed, though it seems like every method has some horrible drawback, you just have to choose which is the lesser of evils for your own needs.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

imeridian said:


> Indeed, though it seems like every method has some horrible drawback, you just have to choose which is the lesser of evils for your own needs.


That's really the issue for most things in the hobby and is the root problem with disagreements, they often do not have the same goals or want to deal with the trade offs, rather than admitting that, they try and argue to convince others to follow them.

I've tried plenty of CO2 methods, most work pretty well if you try.
I do not think there's any one method that will do it all.

DIY is cheap.
Gas tanks are not.

For me it's certainly worth the trade off.
Here?

I'm not about to add more electric load, I want less, better efficiency for light, flow etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> That's really the issue for most things in the hobby and is the root problem with disagreements, they often do not have the same goals or want to deal with the trade offs, rather than admitting that, they try and argue to convince others to follow them.
> 
> I've tried plenty of CO2 methods, most work pretty well if you try.
> I do not think there's any one method that will do it all.
> ...


Yes I undestand your pint of view Tom, but when it comes to my plant collection and keeping them happy a few bucks here and there is the least of my concerns. I spent $$$$ in getting where I am today and like you, have tried several methods of injecting Co2 (thanks to you for some of the ideas ) the mesh wheel with it's few drawbacks is the best method so far....well for me it is 

Diffusers works well, but it is inconsistent and requires mandatory routine maintenance to keep it up to speed, I know this. I do no have that kind of time these days.

While I had not given any of the main reasons why the decision to change, let me do so now so that you can analyze with me 

Went to lower watt main pump (savings) -> which in turn greatly reduced the tank temperature -> chiller does not come on anymore (big savings) -> Overall noise reduction (chiller & Mazzei suction) -> at 2bps a 50Lb tank will last for years for sure (a little savings) -> no performance loss.

Tradeoffs:

100wats power -> ???

While I'm not trying to convince anyone to use this method I have stated a fact (i.e) it works extremely well.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

What kind of flow difference did you experence between the regular impeller and your mesh impeller? If you measured.

What did the stock Iwaki impeller consist of?

I ask this because with all of the impeller modding going on I find it strange that water can even still be pumped through them.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I just won an auction on an Iwaki MD-10L Brand New in Box!

Reasheed, this thing is still producing stellar results, right?


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> What kind of flow difference did you experence between the regular impeller and your mesh impeller? If you measured.
> 
> What did the stock Iwaki impeller consist of?
> 
> I ask this because with all of the impeller modding going on I find it strange that water can even still be pumped through them.


I'm not relying on the Iwaki to provide flow so I had no need to test really, but it still does pump water, just not as it's rated output.

If you look at the pic below and try to picture the impeller without the mesh.....that's it really.













> I just won an auction on an Iwaki MD-10L Brand New in Box!
> 
> Reasheed, this thing is still producing stellar results, right?


The impeller that comes in these is different from my model, but it can be made to work I'm sure. 

Here are a few different mods comes to mind after seeing the 3D drawing:

1) making cuts in the blades similar to the danner impeller 

2) cuttting down the blade to reduce it's surface area and zip tie a piece/pieces of Enkamat on each or every other blade

3) Cutting 3/4 of the blade off tasso reduce surface which will increase dwell time in volute area causing more mixing to happen.


And yes my meshwheel still works like a champ


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I like the md-10L because of the flow rate. I think it will work well in line with my xp1.

Im going to try it with the standard wheel at first just to see what I can get out of it. Then let the modding begin!

I guess i'll just take the pump with me to the local Lowes or tru-value and see if they can hook me up with some 5/8" barbs.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Is your Iwaki MD-10L going? Are you going to be drilling/making holes in the impeller?


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

How's it going Reasheed? 

I have had my md-10L hooked up fpor about a week and my plants are thanking me every day. I just ordered my meshmod kit and look forward to taking the pump apart tomorrow and putting together a plan of attack.


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## bibbels (Sep 29, 2008)

Well I've been inspired to try this because of this thread. I've aquired 2 Iwaki MD-20RZ pumps (3100rpm, 175gph, 22.6ft max head). Soon as my enkamat arrives I'll start modding.

I plan to replace the mazzei in my 125gal with one pump. The other is planned for a 40 breeder I'm about to set up.

One question for mrkookm: I guess your pump had the enclosed high head impeller that is 3 layers. Did you remove the front layer then cut off the teeth leaving only the back layer to attach the mesh?


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## Burks (May 21, 2006)

Very nice job. Reminds me of mesh mods for reef skimmers (which also is nearly a must do!).

Been out of the planted tank scene for a while. Didn't know people were injecting CO2 this way (or maybe just never noticed).


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I have had my mesh and pump for a few weeks now. I just dont know how to mod this impeller.


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## bibbels (Sep 29, 2008)

My initial thought is that impeller type may be tough to add mesh to. That's just a guess though since I haven't done this before. I'll post some pics of the high head impeller in the MD-20RZ's I have in the am once home from work.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

bsmith782 said:


> I have had my mesh and pump for a few weeks now. I just don't know how to mod this impeller.


One person told me to trim ~ 2/3 of each impellers' blade height off and then add the mesh.


I don't remember. Have you seen this DIY? http://www.randystacye.com/diythreadwheel.htm

He shows a few different ways to do this mod.


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## bibbels (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks for that link Left C as I have not seen it before. It gives me a better idea to mesh a maxijet impeller.


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## bibbels (Sep 29, 2008)

Here are some pics of an Iwaki MD20-RZ I'm going to mod for a meshwheel.

The impeller has three layers; two discs with teeth in between. I plan to remove the outer disc and grind down the teeth to provide clearance for the mesh.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

bibbels said:


> Thanks for that link Left C as I have not seen it before. It gives me a better idea to mesh a maxijet impeller.


You are very welcome. I hope that it helps you.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Bibbels- That impeller/wheel liiks easy to mod. It should work well like the pump this thread was started for.

I contacted a few places to ask about replacement impellers for my pump (md-10L) incase I maul it during my modificatikn process. I was pretty happy to find that they are ~$11 but most places require a $25 minimum order. Ill just get 2. 

What I think I will try first is getting a razor blade hot and cutting slices in the impeller 1/2 way down and see how it works witht he extra surface area smashing up bubbles. Then if that is unsatisfactory I can just shave the blades down and mount the mesh on it.


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## bibbels (Sep 29, 2008)

bsmith- Good luck to you on that. I have my enkamat here now so I plan to mod this week.


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## bibbels (Sep 29, 2008)

I've modded my Iwaki MD20RZ. After some initial testing I believe the mist will be as good as my Mazzei. Now I need to implement it on one of my tanks to see how it does.

See the link for captioned pics.

http://s556.photobucket.com/albums/ss1/bibbelspics/Iwaki 20RZ Mesh Mod/


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> I guess your pump had the enclosed high head impeller that is 3 layers. Did you remove the front layer then cut off the teeth leaving only the back layer to attach the mesh?


Well it's a little late now  but I did exactly what you did as shown in your photobucket pics.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Just a FYI from a disc replacement with similar flow rates:
The dispersion is not as good, but this is due to flow patterning.
It split, traveling around a large piece of driftwood, this is tougher for the disc, they need places near the current.

Disc seem to do best when they are allowed some dwell time, rising up, then a nice semi gentle current blows the mist around, generally a downward fashion throughout the tank.

My issue with the mazzei and disc on pumps below was the fact that filters used in line reduce their flow rates, this in turn, reduced the flow and the efficacy of the mazzei. The other thing, these pumps suck a lot of power, th disc suck no power at all. That cost and installation adds up for this versus say pair of 20$ diffusers which I just add, much easier.
Tradeoff: a little less efficient, much simpler, have to clean them once every 2 months or so.

CO2 is cheap, I still have high current(higher now), simpler plumbing.
Less noise.

I think on smaller powerheads, eg, maxi jets etc, the mesh is a good idea, but on larger systems/pumps etc, that's a lot of electric and noise to give up.

Reef folks are willing for skim, but we do not need that volume of air, nor skimming is so important. We have a few other ways that work well also.

FWIW

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

I'm happy with my needlewheel. It has improved my flow and the mist is better distributed than I was able to get with the pollen glass despite moving it all over the tank. The pump is virtually silent aside from the sound of the CO2 going through the impeller which is still quieter than my reactor(s) is towards the end of the day. I was concerned about the increase in electrical usage so I have the pump on the same timer as the CO2. It only runs 10 hours per day. 

All that being said, I've come across another impeller for my pump for a lot cheaper than the cost of a new one. I've ordered some enkamatt and plan on modding the spare impeller to see the difference in the needlewheel vs mesh. To me, doing little projects like this is just one of the many things that keeps the hobby interesting.


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## jgb77 (Dec 13, 2006)

I too was inspired by mrkookm to try this mod out. I was able to buy an Iwaki RZ-20 high head,low flow pump from ebay for $25. I was using a mazzei injector on a bypass loop and although this mesh mod has only been running for a few days, so far I really like the results. The mist is similar to the mazzei's, it does seem finer though. Add the finer mist plus the fact that I am getting more flow, and I would say the mesh mod is superior to a mazzei. I plumbed mine right into the line where I previously had the mazzei. 
Since flow is so important to distribute co2 as evenly as possible, that is the reason I think the needle wheel or mesh mod is better than a mazzei. The mazzei works very well, but it restricts the flow, whereas the mesh mod, needle wheel pump increases flow. 
John


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## bibbels (Sep 29, 2008)

@Plantbrain -


> I think on smaller powerheads, eg, maxi jets etc, the mesh is a good idea, but on larger systems/pumps etc, that's a lot of electric and noise to give up.


These smaller Iwaki RZ's only use 50-60 watts or so and if only ran during light cycle doesn't add up to much. Not a bad tradeoff for great CO2 mist. No more diffuser disc cleaning either and less stuff in the tank.



I still haven't implemented the mesh wheel Iwaki on any of my tanks yet. I did, however, pull the diffuser and Maxijet 1200 out of my aquapod 24 and replaced with a Quiet One 1200 I had lying around after mesh modding it. The CO2 is going right to the intake grate. I swear the mist is as small or smaller than the mist from the Mazzei on my big tank .

I'll probably be going mesh mod crazy for a while since I bought a bulk pack of Enkamat :eek5:. I still have another RZ20 and a RZ30 here to mod.


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

The wattage is the least of my concerns as I mentioned in the past, but I'm about to try a DC pump to see how well it will work. This was my original plan of action, but at the last minute I chose the bigger Iwaki pump instead because I did'nt know what to expect from a pump so small. Now that I have a bigger mean meshwheel I can approach this smaller DC pump with confidence knowing that I can always revert to the Iwaki if this new setup is'nt up to speed.

The DC pump that will be configured and put into service is a Panworld 10PX-D which can use either 12~24VDC to obtain the flow spec of 185 ~ 210GPH @ 6 ~10ft head. I doubt it will be close the the perfomance I get now from my Iwaki full blast, but currently I have my Iwaki throttled way down to keep the mist in check. I'm hoping this pump will give the same mist quality and volume comparable to my throttled Iwaki.

I will post some pics later if I get around to begin the mod.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Here's a pic of my modded NW impeller from my Sedra 3500









I actually can't tell any visible difference in the mist produced by the original impeller versus the modded impeller, but at least I have a spare impeller now.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

You know im waiting for you to figure out what your going to do with that panworld as it's the fraternal twin of my Iwaki md-10L. The last thought on my mind was to get a hot razorblade and melt/cut about 2/3 through the impeller blades to make it more "needle" like. I also found replacement impellers for ~$11 so tearing one up for the sake of plant keeping isnt to discouraging.



mrkookm said:


> The wattage is the least of my concerns as I mentioned in the past, but I'm about to try a DC pump to see how well it will work. This was my original plan of action, but at the last minute I chose the bigger Iwaki pump instead because I did'nt know what to expect from a pump so small. Now that I have a bigger mean meshwheel I can approach this smaller DC pump with confidence knowing that I can always revert to the Iwaki if this new setup is'nt up to speed.
> 
> The DC pump that will be configured and put into service is a Panworld 10PX-D which can use either 12~24VDC to obtain the flow spec of 185 ~ 210GPH @ 6 ~10ft head. I doubt it will be close the the perfomance I get now from my Iwaki full blast, but currently I have my Iwaki throttled way down to keep the mist in check. I'm hoping this pump will give the same mist quality and volume comparable to my throttled Iwaki.
> 
> I will post some pics later if I get around to begin the mod.


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

Very nice Jeff...looks good!



bsmith said:


> You know im waiting for you to figure out what your going to do with that panworld as it's the fraternal twin of my Iwaki md-10L. The last thought on my mind was to get a hot razorblade and melt/cut about 2/3 through the impeller blades to make it more "needle" like. I also found replacement impellers for ~$11 so tearing one up for the sake of plant keeping isnt to discouraging.


Actually I was expecting something similar to yours and was ready to get to work, but it's actually the 'sandwich' kind like my Iwaki, so modding will be too easy 

I'll post some pics of it later...


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

WHAT!!! I was going to copy your mod!:icon_eek:

Every diagram I saw of the Panworld looked exactly like mine.



mrkookm said:


> Very nice Jeff...looks good!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

Yeah thats what I thought too! I was pleasantly surprised when I took it apart and saw the disk


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Well back to the hot razorblade needle wheel mod. Then if that doesnt work shaving the blades down and affixing the mat to it. Im sure it can be done just not that easily.


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

My mod aproach if my impeller was like yours would have been to use a dremel cutting disk/wheel and make slits in the impeller blade. I was thinking around 5~10 slits halfway into the blade to create a 'needle' wheel instead of a meshwheel mod.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I dont have a dremel so the heated razorblade was the best option for me.


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## bibbels (Sep 29, 2008)

@mrkookm - I was just looking at a Panworld 10PX-D online yesterday. Good to know the impeller is easily modified. I will be interested to see if you get similar performance.

I need to put the brakes on my pump buying for now though, lol. I already have 3 Iwakis on the kitchen table.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I see where I messed up I thought you had a Pan World NH-10PX, which is the same as my md-10L. Ahhhh, now ill go stalk Left C and see what he can come up with!


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

Here are some preliminary pics of the new pump before going forward with the mod:


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

According to these 3-D drawings of the NH-10PX-D and the NH-10PX, both of them use the same 1001112304 impeller which looks like bsmith's and my impeller. I wonder, why is yours different, mrkookm?
NH-10PX-D: http://www.panworldamericas.com/PX-D/Inch/B3011547.pdf
NH-10PX: http://www.panworldamericas.com/PX-D/Inch/B3011547.pdf

Your impeller looks like the one that comes in the higher head, higher pressure NH-10PI-Z-D.
NH-10PI-Z-D: http://www.panworldamericas.com/PI/Inch/E3001436.pdf

It's too bad that you can't simply substitute the 43 mm diameter 10PI-Z-D impeller for the 40 mm diameter 10PX-D.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

bsmith782 said:


> I see where I messed up I thought you had a Pan World NH-10PX, which is the same as my md-10L. Ahhhh, now ill go stalk Left C and see what he can come up with!


Are you going to make a disc w/mesh somewhat like the picture below?


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I was thinking about first taking a hot razorblade and cutting 2/3 the way into the impeller blades to create a "needle wheel" effect and seeing how that works. If that doesnt work I will cut the needles off and make something like the pic you posted. Although, i am worried about cutting and centering this circle of plexiglass. I know tires spin at a slower speed then 3000 rpm and get very shakey if there is a slight imbalance. Should I worry about this?



Left C said:


> Are you going to make a disc w/mesh somewhat like the picture below?


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

I'd try to balance it as best as I could.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

bibbels said:


> @Plantbrain -
> 
> These smaller Iwaki RZ's only use 50-60 watts or so and if only ran during light cycle doesn't add up to much. Not a bad tradeoff for great CO2 mist. No more diffuser disc cleaning either and less stuff in the tank.
> I still haven't implemented the mesh wheel Iwaki on any of my tanks yet. I did, however, pull the diffuser and Maxijet 1200 out of my aquapod 24 and replaced with a Quiet One 1200 I had lying around after mesh modding it. The CO2 is going right to the intake grate. I swear the mist is as small or smaller than the mist from the Mazzei on my big tank .
> ...


I can see it on a maxi 1200, but the larger externals pumps are just not going to be that popular I think. Ebay, used etc is one thing..........then 60 watts x 10 hours for 365 days= 29$ not bad, but the maxi is 8$, and the disc are free.

Noise, adding it to an in line system. I don't know.
My issue with mazzei and in line systems is that if anything impedes flow rates much, that impedes CO2.

I do not like that aspect. Cleaning that vs 4 minutes with some Tilex and something I can see........

I know the needle wheel mesh mods are every bit as good as a mazzei, without requiring the pressure, and the in line issues vs say....a maxi jet mesh mod , I cannot see much issue with those. 

I think someone might consider making and seling th mesh mods to folks for maxi jets, much like Sure flow makes the high flow low pressure mods or them. Also, try and fine the really corse tough mesh, not the fine black wimpy stuff. Home depot carrys quite a few mesh items.

Also, thickened Super glue works pretty well.

The theory is that you will get better mist by increasing dwell time inside the impeller housing. Longer the gas is there, the more atomized the gas shall become. This is the whole idea behind the venturi loop designs I made 15 years ago and redid a few incarnations since.

This way the gas passes through the mesh, the impeller, the mazzei etc, several times, effectively doubling(actually, more, much like the EI dosing dilution, but in reverse for gas passing through- infinite series equation).

So if you folks are clever.........(hint hint)

You'll find some ways to collect and redistribute the mist back through the impeller a few times, 2x etc.

This is why knowing how/why is important. It allows you to design, model and improve things much more than mere copy cats.

This will yield as much mist as anyone could ever want.
Now if you are really clever, you can mke a retention tube to dissolve the mist almost entirely, before heading to the aquarium that you can by pass vs sending a froth of mist bubbles.

Then compare.
Or switch when you want to take pics and have folks look at the tank without mist.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## bibbels (Sep 29, 2008)

@bsmith : Have you made any progress modding your impeller?


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

bsmith782 said:


> ... Although, i am worried about cutting and centering this circle of plexiglass. I know tires spin at a slower speed then 3000 rpm and get very shakey if there is a slight imbalance. Should I worry about this?


Did you notice in the mod thread that the tip of the impeller was turned down with a lathe a bit? You drill a hole large enough in the disc so that it fits on the turned down tip. Then the disc is centered.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Yes I did. It looks crude but works about twice as good as before. I just heated up my razor knife and cut/melted the top if the impeller.



























































bibbels said:


> @bsmith : Have you made any progress modding your impeller?


Yeah Saw that. Thats what I will do after I get tired of the current output.



Left C said:


> Did you notice in the mod thread that the tip of the impeller was turned down with a lathe a bit? You drill a hole large enough in the disc so that it fits on the turned down tip. Then the disc is centered.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

So now here is the problem im having with this diffusion method. Not only is it sort of unsightly but I have to believe that this is causing the light to be blocked or diffused and decreasing its effectiveness.


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## jinx© (Oct 17, 2007)

Is your pump on its own loop bsmith? Maybe you could adapt a surface skimmer to its intake to pull the stuff back thru? That or figure a way to keep things in the loop longer perhaps.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

No, it looks like this.









I also have an Eheim 2222 on the other side of the tank that does some surface agitation.




jinx© said:


> Is your pump on its own loop bsmith? Maybe you could adapt a surface skimmer to its intake to pull the stuff back thru? That or figure a way to keep things in the loop longer perhaps.


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## Minsc (Jul 9, 2006)

I'm not sure what's going on there. Are the bubbles getting trapped in an oily film?
If so, the film is the problem, not the bubbles! How much are you rippling the surface? With CO2 mist, you can really add a lot of surface disruption. You might have to turn up the bps a tad though.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Nope, no surface film at all just bubbles. The 2222's spraybar is about 1.5" below the surface if that helps at all.



Minsc said:


> I'm not sure what's going on there. Are the bubbles getting trapped in an oily film?
> If so, the film is the problem, not the bubbles! How much are you rippling the surface? With CO2 mist, you can really add a lot of surface disruption. You might have to turn up the bps a tad though.


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

I've noticed this with my danner on a closed loop as well. 
The bubbles are so small they don't break the surface tension of the water. 
I do have fluval surface skimmers on both my 2026s, and for my case it helps surface movement.


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## jazzlvr123 (Jul 16, 2007)

okay I have a couple questions:
I currently have a mazzei plumbed underneath my tank and I am thinking of replacing it with the mesh wheel diffuser simply because of the loss of flow the mazzei causes. I am using an Iwaki MD40RLT. however my iwaki is plumbed before my ocean clear canister and mazzei so the diffused water must travel through the filter can before returning to the tank. my question is will the filter which is plumbed after the iwaki pump effect the co2 diffusion or am i safe to execute my plan?


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## JDowns (Mar 6, 2008)

Am I reading your plumbing correctly?

Output off of pump T'd

Leg 1 to OC
Leg 2 to Mazzei

T'd back to single output to tank.

If so I would replace the Mazzei portion with your mesh mod pump with a ball valve on the output to regulate flow and increase dwell time if needed.

On my modded Mag I have a ball valve after and that really lets me dial in the mist size by increasing dwell time.


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

wow, when i get a big tank im definitely trying this out!


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

where do you get that type of mesh?

does attaching it like that with the zip ties throw it off balance and cause it to make noise?


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

There will be naysayers but this will give you low buuble rates with very efficient c02 disolving. I'm just waiting for a full day off to do this with mine. No more bubbles in the tank!!!



jazzlvr123 said:


> okay I have a couple questions:
> I currently have a mazzei plumbed underneath my tank and I am thinking of replacing it with the mesh wheel diffuser simply because of the loss of flow the mazzei causes. I am using an Iwaki MD40RLT. however my iwaki is plumbed before my ocean clear canister and mazzei so the diffused water must travel through the filter can before returning to the tank. my question is will the filter which is plumbed after the iwaki pump effect the co2 diffusion or am i safe to execute my plan?


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Torpedobarb said:


> where do you get that type of mesh? ...


Here are some places: 
http://meshmod.net/
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merc...een=PROD&Product_Code=ENK-7210&Category_Code=
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merc...een=PROD&Product_Code=ENK-PF4C&Category_Code=
http://www.barrierreefaquariums.com/productCart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=0&idproduct=221
http://www.aquaticeco.com/search/0/enkamat


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

I just ordered some of the mesh from the meshmod website.. the 2 pack was only 7.77 shipped.. can't go wrong there!


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Which two-pac's did you get PF4, PF4 flatback or PF5? 

I have some of the PF4 and PF4 flatback.

Tom mentioned going with the PF5, I believe. I know the reefers use the two that I have.


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## inkslinger (Dec 28, 2003)

Has any one try a mod on a Blue Line 55 HD 1100gph Pump 28'max head , There propeller are close in not open like all the smaller pumps?

http://www.championlighting.com/product.php?productid=18947&cat=793&page=1


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