# High CRI DIY build



## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

I'm looking into making an 18" light for my high tech 10 gallon tank. I currently have two 20" aluminum c-channels with 4 led strips in each. The led strips have 3000k and 6500k LEDs in them and I'm using a tc-420 controller to decrease color temperature throughout the day along with a bell curve of intensity for a 6hr intense photoperiod and 16 hours of total light. 

They're pretty cheap led strips from the bay of ease ($24) , so the tint is pretty greenish and they get awfully toasty. There was a coupon from the eBay app for $15 off $75+ and I wanted to try out the makersLED heatsink to see if it's worth the premium compared to standard extrusions, so I grabbed an 18" kit.

My planned leds are from digikey and Steve's LEDs:

A 3up board with the semileds Violet v3.0, and luxeon RS deep red and cyan for extra spectrum fill. These will be surrounded by either 2 or 4 of each 6500k and 3000k Cree 10w cxa1304 COBs. The warm white COBs have 93 CRI, while the cool white have 80. Since you can't enter the specific spectrums into Spectra, it's difficult to plan out the colors needed for good color accuracy and plant growth, but I made layouts for multiple ratios. These take into consideration that I'll run the 10w LEDs in 2 or 3 parallel for 500 or 333mA at 9v (4.5w or 3w) to get better heat performance and light spread.

I saw makemyled freshwater has a ratio of 2 deep red and Violet to 4 cool white and 2 neutral whites, so I'm thinking I might be lacking in the fill color department. The 3up boards are $11 each compared to the $1-2 COBs, so I'm reluctant to add too many, though with an LED controller they will be adjustable anyway. Is there a standard mix around that gives both high CRI and the proper fills for photosynthesis? I've done quite a bit of searching around and it seems there's much more emphasis on growth than aesthetic.


```
2:2:1 warm to cool to three-color

      ww
cw uv cw
      ww


4:4:1 

cw ww cw
ww uv ww
cw ww cw


Or 3:2:1

cw ww cw
ww uv ww
cw ww cw
ww uv ww
cw ww cw
ww uv ww
cw ww cw
ww uv ww
cw ww cw


Or 2:3:1

ww cw ww
cw uv cw
ww cw ww
cw uv cw
ww cw ww
cw uv cw
ww cw ww
cw uv cw
ww cw ww
```


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

I'm going to so sound like a broken record, BUT..consider using some Luxeon "fresh fish" 6500K COB's
Mouser has them.
https://www.mouser.com/Search/Produ...rtualkey58270000virtualkey997-L2C5FS001208E15
Or single emitter hort variety (basically the same but a weird beam angle)..

Luxeon SunPlus Far Red 3W
May need to consider lenses

Anyways regarding the "fresh fish"


> Dear Jeff,
> Thank you for your interest in Lumileds. We apologize for the delayed response.
> 
> The CRI measurement is 95 typical.
> ...


Blue line...


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## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> I'm going to so sound like a broken record, BUT..consider using some Luxeon "fresh fish" 6500K COB's
> Mouser has them.
> https://www.mouser.com/Search/Produ...rtualkey58270000virtualkey997-L2C5FS001208E15
> Or single emitter hort variety (basically the same but a weird beam angle)..
> ...


Thanks for the links. What would you suggest as a corresponding 2700/3000k 95 CRI cob to pair with that? Is the Violet/deepred/cyan fill lighting still useful compared to the raw lumen output of those? I don't know how well they'd mix with so few 6500k lights (would only get 2 or 3). Is there a diffuser material with high efficiency available to the layman?

I wish they had 10-50w dual-temperature high CRI cobs available, but I'm not willing to spend $300 each on the 100w test versions from jturner, so mixing these will have to make do.

Thanks


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Maybe a step back is in order..
"Simplist" high CRI high photosynthetic layout (all but the semi's were 1W diodes..):


> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> Cree XT-E CoolWhite (5000-8300K) [120°] x6
> Cree XT-E WarmWhite (2200-3700K) [120°] x6
> ...











24W total and approx 40PAR at 12"

you don't have to worry so much about the CRI because you are going to "make" it..
high CRI high K whites are to fill that gap at <500nm
ADD 2 reg blues and its pretty well closed though you'd prob dim them quite a bit .. say 50% 
cost of diodes goes to $28.80
ADD a 3rd set for power if you like.. like $15..










Now you didn't mention if you are going to switch driver topology.. 
I assume your strips were constant voltage. now are you going to constant current?

IF you actually went 3 in series off a constant voltage of 12V you could terminate each string w/ a resistor of the proper value and wattage..
Rough estimates show all should be capable of 5W dissipation ..but you got a big heat sink..
Each of the 5 channels requires a different Ohm value.
Note that few do it this way... 
http://led.linear1.org/led.wiz
I've personally have never done it..
Oh 3 sets (recommended) is about 34W total ROUGHLY and 50PAR @ 12"..

Running the Phillips at spectra was a bit weird.. Took some work to get a decent spectrum out of it but it's possible.. with a catch..


> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel PLUS (2700K) [120°] x6
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel Blue (460-480nm) [120°] x1
> ...


Think of 6 as "3".. (3 diodes full power)
You can see that each "color " is dimmed considerably.
Pushing cyan to full gives me great CRI but "tone" would likely not be acceptable to most..
cyan-y..


> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel PLUS (2700K) [120°] x6
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel Blue (460-480nm) [120°] x1
> ...


Like I said earlier.. you can "make" any CRI and tone you choose..


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## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

I spent some time and figured out how to import spectrum graphs into the spectra tool. It takes some work, and there's a few bits missing that might alter the spectra calculations, but it seems to work fine. I took the data from the fresh fish cob and a similar-wattage and voltage luminus xnova 3000k 97 CRI COB and put them into the tool. 

Alone they give a CRI of 95 and 98 (respective to 2856k "A" and 6500k "D65"), and combined they give 98 CRI with respect to 5000k "D50". Adding two or three luxeon rebel cyan diodes brings the CRI up to 99, improving the furtive R12 cobalt-esque swatch of the CRI plot and moving the color tint closer to the ideal blackbody curve. Adding a UV diode into the mix throws things out of whack by a couple points, but looks to be extremely beneficial for plant growth and could be compensated by even more cyan LEDs. I think the ideal mix now is 2 of each 6500k and 3000k COB, and two 3up boards with a single violet and two cyan LEDs on each. The COBs are 36V each, so I'd probably go with meanwell 36V HLG series 60W versions. I have 12 and 24v power supplies currently so I'll probably go with the resistor method driving the small LEDs. A future-proofing alternative would be the 120w supplies for an extra $15 each, but we shall see. 




```
* MIXING LIST
----------------------------------------
  myData fresh-fish.csv [115°] x1
  myData xnova-3000k.csv [115°] x1
  PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel Cyan (490-510nm) [120°] x2
  SemiLEDs C35L-U-A UV (410-420nm) (U70) [120°] x1
----------------------------------------

* SIMULATION DATA
----------------------------------------
  Luminous flux : 6,394 lm
  Radiant flux : 24,566 mW
  PPF : 109 umol/s
  TCP : 5150 K
  CRI : 96
  λp : 453 nm
  Color : #FFCAB1
----------------------------------------

* PERFORMANCE @ 30cm
----------------------------------------
  Irradiance : 34.9 W/m²/s
  Illuminance : 9,108 lx
  PPFD : 155 umol/m²/s
----------------------------------------
```


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> I spent some time and figured out how to import spectrum graphs into the spectra tool. It takes some work, and there's a few bits missing that might alter the spectra calculations, but it seems to work fine. I took the data from the fresh fish cob and a similar-wattage and voltage luminus xnova 3000k 97 CRI COB and put them into the tool.


You brought a tear to my eye..................


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## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> You brought a tear to my eye..................


Is this uncharted territory? In case it hasn't been shared before I'll give a quick tutorial on how to trace and import from spectrum graphs.



Find your desired spectrum and take a screenshot of it using snipping tool (get it as high res as you can).

Import it into the WebPlotDigitizer web application that helps extract data from graphs.

Choose 2D (X-Y) Plot and click align axes, then follow the guidelines to place your X1,X2,Y1 and Y2 points. You can use your arrow keys to adjust on a per-pixel basis, which makes it easier to align. 

When the X and Y axes calibration prompt shows up, enter the point locations (eg 400,700 and 0.1,0.9). Now the grid should have the same scale as the image.

I've had good luck with the "automatic extraction" tool. It only works with singular black-and-white graphs, or multi-color graphs. Click on the foreground color to choose the color trace you want and use the color picker to choose the exact color. Change distance to 10 to narrow down the color search range.

For the Algorithm drop-down, choose *X-step w/ interpolation* and the proper X and Y (380,780,0,1), with a ΔX Step of 5. (you can increase it for more data points, but spectra only takes them in 5nm increments). Leave the smoothing at 0% and it should still work fine.

Click run, and it should trace the spectrum curve. If there are points missing (if colors overlap, etc), you can use manual extraction to add points, but remember you will have to alter the data once you export it.

Now you can click view data and it'll show a comma-separated-value list of the points.


Now you have to take that data and turn it into something the spectra tool will like. 




To get a template to enter your data in, hop onto spectra with zero leds selected. Click the data button and download the CSV of your current spectrum. Save it wherever you feel.
You can't use excel to edit these CSV files since they have a weird format that breaks as soon as excel saves them, so use a proper text editor like Notepad++. 
The formatting of the files is really strict, so it needs to have the entire list from 380-780 populated even if the ends are zeroes. If you added any points manually, you will need to change them to the nearest 5nm number and place them in the correct order. Significant figures don't matter. 
Once the spectrum values are added, change the luminous flux value to the nominal chip lumen value, and the beam angle. The rest of the data will be filled in automatically once you import the csv, so there's no need to change anything else. 
So long as the file looks similar to the one you originally downloaded (comma styles, number of data points) you should be able to go back into spectra, press data, file, choose your .csv file, and save!

Hopefully this tutorial was in-depth enough to replicate my efforts. I attached the spectrum csv files that I made for the "fresh fish" 
L2C5-FS001208E1500, and the Luminus Xnova CXM-18-30-95-36-AA00-F2-3 if anyone is interested.




View attachment High CRI Spectra.zip


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

most excellent...........











> Is this uncharted territory?


Yep............
D65 color space..


> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> myData fresh-fish.csv [115°] x3
> myData xnova-3000k.csv [115°] x1
> ...


ONE more..



> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> myData fresh-fish.csv [115°] x3
> myData xnova-3000k.csv [115°] x1
> ...


100% "score"............


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## Kampo (Nov 3, 2015)

Ok adding diodes to Spectra is really cool. I'm stuck on a Chromebook lately so prolly won't have the tools to do it myself though. But really neat stuff. Would love to see the marbled meat cob added. That chip is intriguing me


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## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> D65 color space..
> 
> ONE more..
> 
> ...


The issue with those mixes are that the fresh fish and xnova are 30W cobs, so there'd be big issues heat sinking them, powering them, and properly mixing them into a uniform spread. Also the cost, can't forget the cost. With a small tank it gives a blistering 300PAR at the substrate (85 at 24"). Once I get my 120 it might be more viable, but for now I think my 1:1:2:1 ratio planned mix will give the best results at all three main color temps (2800,5000,6500).





Kampo said:


> Ok adding diodes to Spectra is really cool. I'm stuck on a Chromebook lately so prolly won't have the tools to do it myself though. But really neat stuff. Would love to see the marbled meat cob added. That chip is intriguing me


The procedure only requires screenshot functionality plus a text editor. Something like "Caret" from the chrome web store might work.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Yea, last 2 were mostly for fun.. will do a bit more research on this..

did find it is possible to just upload the data string (after the "spectrum" part..
Can download it again to edit and re-upload it..
I need more work on this though...

Point is you seem to be able to create a template w/ just the nm data..
Will type one up in notepad. 

.101,.205,.305,.40,.50,.60,.70,.80,.60,.50,.40,.30,.20,.10,0,0,0,0,0

uploads just fine..
Need to change the notepad file name to XXX.csv, then upload










From the picture you can also see I tried to do a Sorra 5000k COB but it's not continuous for some reason.

Relatively correct w/ holes..


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## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Yea, last 2 were mostly for fun.. will do a bit more research on this..
> 
> did find it is possible to just upload the data string (after the "spectrum" part..
> Can download it again to edit and re-upload it..
> ...


You can use the "add point" option to manually fill in the holes with approximate points, then distribute the points to their proper locations in the list. Note that from 405 to 430 the percentage doesn't have as many digits because I had to fill them in manually. The reason I suggested using notepad++ is that it properly displays text file formatting, so the CSVs look like the attached image instead of just a continuous string. It's just easier to comprehend. I did notice that the tool accepted other formats, but I found that it was more consistent to just copy the entire csv.










Edit: More screwing around got me to nearly the purest-white tone available while also getting a 100 score with the broad violet spectrum. Dimming the 3000k to 40% is the ticket here.



> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> myData fresh-fish.csv [115°] x1
> myData xnova-3000k.csv [115°] x0.4
> ...


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Notepad ++ seems essential. "Standard" notepad hides too much..Waste of time..

now your just making me look stupid..  
Never thought of decimals, would just always add diodes to simulate.. like 1:1 to 3:1 to run second at 1/3rd power..
Thanks though..

another oddity I guess.. Increasing the same diode count will shift K temp .
1 Luxeon-A ANSI (5000K)= 4240
20 Luxeon-A ANSI (5000K) = 4930

does not do that for "generic" diodes..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

SpringHalo said:


> I'm looking into making an 18" light for my high tech 10 gallon tank. I currently have two 20" aluminum c-channels with 4 led strips in each. The led strips have 3000k and 6500k LEDs in them and I'm using a tc-420 controller to decrease color temperature throughout the day along with a bell curve of intensity for a 6hr intense photoperiod and 16 hours of total light.
> 
> They're pretty cheap led strips from the bay of ease ($24) , so the tint is pretty greenish and they get awfully toasty. There was a coupon from the eBay app for $15 off $75+ and I wanted to try out the makersLED heatsink to see if it's worth the premium compared to standard extrusions, so I grabbed an 18" kit.


I used 1" x 1/8" standard angle aluminum for my heat sinks. I have roughly 8' of aluminum stock (one bar from Home Depot) supporting 60x 3W leds @ 600mA. With a 3" cooling fan evacuating the enclosure. The heat sink is warm but not uncomfortable.

Depending upon what density (how much wattage) they are supporting, they will be fine. Adding a cooling fan enables a much higher density.

IOW, if you are planning any active cooling, the extra expense of purpose built heatsink is probably unnecessary. The purpose built heatsinks typically lack in mass but have more surface area per length. 





> My planned leds are from digikey and Steve's LEDs:
> 
> A 3up board with the semileds Violet v3.0, and luxeon RS deep red and cyan for extra spectrum fill. These will be surrounded by either 2 or 4 of each 6500k and 3000k Cree 10w cxa1304 COBs. The warm white COBs have 93 CRI, while the cool white have 80. Since you can't enter the specific spectrums into Spectra, it's difficult to plan out the colors needed for good color accuracy and plant growth, but I made layouts for multiple ratios. These take into consideration that I'll run the 10w LEDs in 2 or 3 parallel for 500 or 333mA at 9v (4.5w or 3w) to get better heat performance and light spread.
> 
> ...


Unless you can copy verbatim someone else's design with the exact same leds, the look you get may be unexpected. Rectifying it through trial and error is one approach, but I think a better long term solution is to have multiple adjustable color channels with enough headroom to get any color you want. Make the best educated guesses for your white and warm white channels, then several other color channels. Smaller leds mix better.

Trying to get the right color from large COBs is difficult as they don't mix well, you will get spotlighting unless you have only one color COB. However they will typically be higher CRI. 

Smaller leds also have the advantage that you can wire them together in shorter strings with lower voltage, you need to consider how the leds will be apportioned between channels, power supplies, and controllers.

Good luck. Jeff Krol is an expert on this, but I believe experimentation (the ability to make adjustments with multiple channels) trumps theory sometimes. IMO, you want to build in an ability to adjust the color and that is best done with smaller LEDs.


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## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Increasing the same diode count will shift K temp .
> 1 Luxeon-A ANSI (5000K)= 4240
> 20 Luxeon-A ANSI (5000K) = 4930
> 
> does not do that for "generic" diodes..


I'm not able to replicate that, unless you still have 1 or more different diodes selected that you didn't see.



ChrisX said:


> I used 1" x 1/8" standard angle aluminum for my heat sinks. I have roughly 8' of aluminum stock (one bar from Home Depot) supporting 60x 3W leds @ 600mA. With a 3" cooling fan evacuating the enclosure. The heat sink is warm but not uncomfortable.
> 
> Depending upon what density (how much wattage) they are supporting, they will be fine. Adding a cooling fan enables a much higher density.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tips. I'm currently using 2x1 1/8" aluminum U-channel for the led strips, and it gets almost too hot to touch at full blast. They're passively cooled though and might have a higher density of LEDs. I haven't checked the power, but I assume it's 20-30W on a 20" sink. When I move up to a 120 I'll still probably use purpose-built sinks because they dissipate heat much better per unit size, plus overkill will increase the LED efficiency, light output, and longevity.

I think the only way to reduce spotlighting is with diffusion and increased height. I'll look into lenses/reflectors, but I don't think there are any big enough to combine the lights the way I want. Like you said, it's something I'll have to just test out. My experience with the beamswork fixtures is the individual colored LEDs shine onto my top glass which has condensed drops of water that reduce shimmering, and still manage to make it to the substrate as colored dots. I might look into using frosted plexi covers since the diffuser material from Luminit is hard to get and overtly expensive.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> I'm not able to replicate that, unless you still have 1 or more different diodes selected that you didn't see.


hmm.. possible though was pretty sure I cleared the pallette...
Tried it at work and it behaves correctly..so odds are increasing.. 

got 1/2 doz things flying around right now... 



> My experience with the beamswork fixtures is the individual colored LEDs shine onto my top glass which has condensed drops of water that reduce shimmering, and still manage to make it to the substrate as colored dots.


Beamswork or home built.. you get lensed spots..


diffusion is a whole another science.. There really is a lot of work going into this as well as in the past (film industry)
Phillips Coral Care and now Radion have dealt w/ it quite well w acceptable PAR losses..

diffusion can be done by amount and direction..or you can just sand acrylic..

https://www.inventables.com/technologies/light-diffuser-films
https://www.luminitco.com/


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

SpringHalo said:


> I'm not able to replicate that, unless you still have 1 or more different diodes selected that you didn't see.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A 1/8" U-channel is uncommon, are you sure they aren't 1/16th? (I would have used 1/8" U if it existed....)

Also, efficiency plays a large role. How did you mount those strips to the heatsinks? Did you use thermal compound? Do they have a contact plate built in?

Almost too hot to touch is what I was experiencing with 60x 3w leds, open air. (It was around 125-130*, to hot to run long term in an enclosure). When I added a small fan to their enclosure, the temp dropped significantly.

I'm not sure purpose built heatsinks are better / cost. They tend to have less mass but more surface area.  IOW, if you experience better performance with new lights, it is likely how they are mounted, their efficiency, etc. A properly mounted cooling fan will make a huge difference.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

yea!!!..


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## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

jeffkrol said:


> yea!!!..


Woohoo!


I need to fool with adding these in later, I didn't even know you could put custom diodes in there!


Anybody care to add the 4000k Citizen 97CRI CLU028 in there? 

https://www.digikey.com/short/q3f02b


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

380, 0
385, 0
390, 0
395, 0.009569377990430672
400, 0.012759170653907637
405, 0.012759170653907637
410, 0.01594896331738438
415, 0.020733652312599826
420, 0.03987240829346095
425, 0.07496012759170645
430, 0.1371610845295057
435, 0.24082934609250406
440, 0.4019138755980862
445, 0.6220095693779906
450, 0.9043062200956938
455, 0.9984051036682616
460, 0.7942583732057418
465, 0.5709728867623606
470, 0.47368421052631593
475, 0.4098883572567784
480, 0.3891547049441787
485, 0.430622009569378
490, 0.48644338118022334
495, 0.558213716108453
500, 0.6172248803827751
505, 0.6682615629984052
510, 0.7049441786283892
515, 0.7304625199362043
520, 0.7464114832535886
525, 0.7671451355661882
530, 0.7910685805422648
535, 0.8165869218500799
540, 0.8405103668261563
545, 0.8628389154704945
550, 0.8819776714513557
555, 0.8899521531100479
560, 0.8947368421052633
565, 0.8931419457735248
570, 0.8835725677830941
575, 0.8755980861244019
580, 0.8676236044657097
585, 0.8628389154704945
590, 0.8628389154704945
595, 0.8676236044657097
600, 0.8819776714513557
605, 0.9027113237639555
610, 0.9250398724082936
615, 0.9489633173843701
620, 0.9665071770334929
625, 0.9840510366826156
630, 0.9936204146730463
635, 0.9936204146730463
640, 0.9824561403508772
645, 0.9617224880382775
650, 0.9314194577352473
655, 0.8963317384370016
660, 0.8484848484848485
665, 0.799043062200957
670, 0.7400318979266348
675, 0.6794258373205742
680, 0.6267942583732058
685, 0.5614035087719298
690, 0.5055821371610846
695, 0.4481658692185009
700, 0.3971291866028709
705, 0.3524720893141946
710, 0.30781499202551843
715, 0.2727272727272727
720, 0.23604465709728872
725, 0.20574162679425845
730, 0.17703349282296665
735, 0.14832535885167475
740, 0.12918660287081352
745, 0.1100478468899524
750, 0.09090909090909083
755, 0.07814992025518364
760, 0.06858054226475296
765, 0.05741626794258381
770, 0.04784688995215314
775, 0.03827751196172269
780, 0.0350877192982455

IF there isn't a hard way, I'll invent one.. 
POINTS were all hand picked...

85CRI at D50










NOTE w/out the radiometric and power data you can't "add" diodes to it.. yet..
Pretty pictures first!.. 

MY R9 = 87 data sheet says 90
OK added some data.. (lumens) and as is (no guarantees) and depending on which "standard CRI" one uses adding 2 1W 480nm and 2 1W 490 pushed CRI to 95 (d50) and 4900K..


> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> myData cit4000k.txt [120°] x1
> LED Blue (480nm) [120°] x2
> ...


DID add 18000 mW for radiant flux of the Cit. chip..

COMPARISON:


> LED Blue (480nm) [120°] x2
> LED Cyan (490nm) [120°] x2
> ----------------------------------------
> 
> ...


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

1 fresh fish, 1 xnova studio 5600k


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

OK, since I temporarily fell down this rabbit hole I'm going to conclude w/ some links and data..
Seems r12 is hard to get high w/ LEd's in "general"..apparently it's "saturatd blue" which seems weird to not be able to push easily to 100..Oh well..
First fun read:
Understanding the Complete LED Database: Testing Procedures ? Indie Cinema Academy
Th e expalinations of what each patch represents is interesting..
Next a "best" spectrum for D65..
ALL approx of course but interesting as to "Possibilities"..


> myData LuminousStudio5600k .csv [120°] x3
> myData Freshfish6500k.csv [115°] x3
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel Blue (460-480nm) [120°] x1
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel Cyan (490-510nm) [120°] x4
> ...











Oh, btw adding "violets" wil marginally increase the sat blue w/ a marginal decrease in CRI overall..
But it will cover those "missing" chlorophyll points..
Well back to reality..


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## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Well back to reality..


Now make the color #FFFFFF 

The main reason I chose 6500k and 3000k is for the variable color temp along with the bonus of high CRI in all 3 temp ranges. I just need to choose a driver scheme, and decide if I feel like spending another $150 on LEDs for this tiny generic 10 gallon tank. For science!


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## Kampo (Nov 3, 2015)

you seem to be enjoying your newly improved toy jeff 

so some thoughts i've had since i'm working a very similar research path now. I'm going to build my 20inch cube light around a 6500k Fresh fish, I just don't think there are any other better options out there in one package. 

Now i'm semi temped to just toss a couple deep reds on it and go single channel and call it a day, but I want a sunrise ability with some color change. I'm thinking of just getting 2 Vero 10 2700ks, or maybe the marbled meat chip which also looks interesting. and running them in parallel at 300ma (I could do one and get the same output, but I have a thing about symmetry in leds...just feel i'll have better coverage if I did this, and since i'm not really driving the leds all that hard the risks involved with parallel wiring should be minimal. what are your guys thoughts? would that give me enough deep red range reds or should i just add a couple deep reds? 

thoughts?


----------



## Kampo (Nov 3, 2015)

SpringHalo said:


> Now make the color #FFFFFF
> 
> The main reason I chose 6500k and 3000k is for the variable color temp along with the bonus of high CRI in all 3 temp ranges. I just need to choose a driver scheme, and decide if I feel like spending another $150 on LEDs for this tiny generic 10 gallon tank. For science!


i'll throw this out there for a cheap but surprisingly good light I did for a high tech fluval spec i did for an aquascape contest. it consisted of 2 strips of dual row rigid leds (ww/cw) and a hydroponics red/blue 4:1 rigid strip up the middle. i'm not sure of the real CRI of the light, but using cree cool white and warm white in place of the rigid led strips, and the generic 460nm blue and 660nm red for the hydroponics) I get a CRI of 95 with a color temp of 6k, the hydroponics strip even though its mostly red will actually raise the color temp. so you get an adjustable range of 3k-8k before it gets to pink, but i just run it at full blast on all channels for the 6k because I didn't have an extra TC420 to leave on it and really like it. used a lumen app on my phone and using a conversion i was getting roughly 80-90 par at 12inches so would be more than enough for a 10 gallon.









kinda played with taking this concept and using 6 strip cut in half (12 rows) and mounting them with proper heatsinking in a 12 inch makersled slim enclosure to make it look purdy. still might do that as a see if it works idea since I have a bunch of strips left from my fish room lighting.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

SpringHalo said:


> Now make the color #FFFFFF




myData Freshfish6500k.csv [115°] x1
LED Cyan (510nm) [120°] x1
LED Green (520nm) [120°] x1
LED Green (530nm) [120°] x1
LED Amber (590nm) [120°] x1
LED Amber (600nm) [120°] x1
#FDFFFF
rgb(253, 255, 255)


close enough???
Or exact?


myData Freshfish6500k.csv [115°] x1
LED Cyan (510nm) [120°] x1
LED Green (520nm) [120°] x1
LED Green (530nm) [120°] x1
LED Amber (590nm) [120°] x1
LED Amber (600nm) [120°] x1
LED Red (620nm) [120°] x0.1
SIMULATION DATALuminous flux3,829 lmRadiant flux13,711 mWPPF60.6 umol/sTCP6540 KCRI99λp453 nmColor#FFFFFF


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Kampo said:


> i'll throw this out there for a cheap but surprisingly good light I did for a high tech fluval spec i did for an aquascape contest. it consisted of 2 strips of dual row rigid leds (ww/cw) and a hydroponics red/blue 4:1 rigid strip up the middle. i'm not sure of the real CRI of the light, but using cree cool white and warm white in place of the rigid led strips, and the generic 460nm blue and 660nm red for the hydroponics) I get a CRI of 95 with a color temp of 6k, the hydroponics strip even though its mostly red will actually raise the color temp.


Point is the goal and how much real estate you want for "effects"..
Orig. when I started building lights it was a "necessity" to have colors w/ the whites due to to be honest.. pss poor LED color rendering.
There always seemed to be something missing..I'd suspect 90% of people wouldn't really notice. 
This isn't a cut it "just is"...doesn't make it any more right or wrong than being color blind..it just is.
I really try not to make it a "my way" thing just how to let people understand possibilities and tradeoffs..And importantly "why" things happen..
I've evolved and sometimes when I see one of my old posts I say "what the heck was I thinking" so its always important to question things..
I used to absolutely love freshwater tanks w/ those magenta fluorescent tubes..
The florescence and colors were wonderful. Still are, and some do it w/ LED's but "I" moved on to a more natural "look"...and THAT became a problem..









Early 6500k w/ a smidge of 660/rb..
Whatever I did w/ those early diodes wasn't satisfying to me..thus began the quest as to why and how to fix it..
Hated old style low K diodes. Too yellow. High K whites .. too blue..

Just "felt" it all could be better..
Then obsession sets in..................
On my 55 I just have pucks (4000k,5000K,6500K all high CRI chips).. Still miss the deep red and even the cyan boost of the 40 but it is def more natural..though a bit of a mess ATM..
And every day I plan on fixing it...Like I said obsession..


Why "I" did is really only important to me to be honest..and most of what I post is just to give one ideas..no more no less.
Granted not being endowed w/ buckets of cash it is nice when someone follows an idea of mine and interesting as they change it to suit their tastes..
There is really no right way. and few wrong ways that couldn't use a tweak or 2..

Its all good..

Nice tank btw.........


----------



## Kampo (Nov 3, 2015)

jeffkrol said:


> Point is the goal and how much real estate you want for "effects"..
> Orig. when I started building lights it was a "necessity" to have colors w/ the whites due to to be honest.. pss poor LED color rendering.
> There always seemed to be something missing..I'd suspect 90% of people wouldn't really notice.
> This isn't a cut it "just is"...doesn't make it any more right or wrong than being color blind..it just is.
> ...


totally get what your saying. i'm seeing it too on my budget lights on my tanks in my fish room. i've come up with some decent cheap diy lights for some of the tanks and it makes my beamsworks look like poo...I still recomend them to people who want a cheap light that works but i won't use one on a display tank again, mainly because I only want 2-3 really nice displays so I want to really make them pop and wow people.

I suggested the rigid led strip light because i did it as a cheap throw together because I didn't want to spend a ton of money getting a used tank up and running for a contest for a few months then tear it down, full expecting it to flake out on me. that said it really impressed me and really looks good. suggested it because if op changes his mind on the tank, its not a horrible alternative to look into, since these rigid strips work great on shallow tanks anyway and grow plants like weeds in my fish room as well

btw changing the topic back. you are the only one I know that has a fresh fish chip in there posession. we have noticed the specs have some pretty odd optical patterns spread wise, you notice anything odd compared to other cobs. if I ran just the single cob optics are easy, but when you start mixing cobs with star led chips and what not it turns into a mess and prolly better left with no optics at all, so thats why i'm curious.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Nothing I noticed but the chip sets only 1/2 off the glass top on a copper heatsink.
55gal only 12" wide..


----------



## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Nothing I noticed but the chip sets only 1/2 off the glass top on a copper heatsink.
> 55gal only 12" wide..


Is that at full brightness? It doesn't seem that intense from the picture.

I've been really worried about color mixing with these huge COBs, so I imported the sunplus cool whites. They're almost the same as the fresh fish, but look to have more of the rest of the spectrum and are ~1/6 the power, so they can be distributed more evenly.










Since the cree 1304s are only $2 each but still 93 CRI, they beat out the luxeon rebels in value, power (10w), and still mix well with the sunplus. I've been experimenting with layouts again, but still have no idea how bad the shimmering will be, or the spotting from the "puck-style" layout. I feel like adding some of the diffusion material you linked earlier close to the LEDs will significantly help, but I'm still unsure how well such a low ratio of white to fill colors will work out. Here's my current layouts. (The white stars are sunplus, the small COBs are 3000k 1304)


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

I'm running it at 450mA (approx. or should be)...............for one thing.. also never adjusted photo to "real life".. 
55% of normal current.. apppox 450mA

33 X .45 X 118= 1752 Lumens..IF I got it on the right driver..


BTW: Keep in mind the odd beam angle of the 3w emitter


> Lens Beam Angle - 162° max


----------



## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> I'm running it at 450mA (approx. or should be)...............for one thing.. also never adjusted photo to "real life"..
> 55% of normal current.. apppox 450mA
> 
> 33 X .45 X 118= 1752 Lumens..IF I got it on the right driver..
> ...


Given the light output half-power drive, do you think it would take only 3 at full power to light that 55?

As for beam angles, the fixture will be resting on the top glass, so the more spread the merrier.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Actually think 2 would be enough (w/ ancillary chips) BUT tank construction precludes any of this..
If you have a center brace I consider 4 just on placement alone to be minimum..
I have 5 ind. moveable pucks on mine practically resting on the glass versa top and the "geometry' still has a tendency to annoy me (not on power)..but as you may have
guessed I am 'restless'..  

4000 lumen shop light (4000k) empty tank..Plants are transplants.. not grown there..just for cycling. Grew fine though










3 weeks, just consider plants on the right..


----------



## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Actually think 2 would be enough (w/ ancillary chips) BUT tank construction precludes any of this..
> If you have a center brace I consider 4 just on placement alone to be minimum..
> I have 5 ind. moveable pucks on mine practically resting on the glass versa top and the "geometry' still has a tendency to annoy me (not on power)..but as you may have
> guessed I am 'restless'..
> ...


Considering the light is 'only' 4000 lumen and a single COB is 3000, 2 (pairs of CW WW) would probably work great for the 55. In that case, 4 should provide fairly even coverage for a 120 with a center brace, but increasing the number would require 8 unless the center braces were moved, or a pair of 4-cob arrays with 60 degree reflectors at 18" or so.

I think I'm going to go with 2 fresh fish, 2 3000k, 4 cyan, 2 violet, and 2 blue, running the cobs from a 36v supply at 500mA each, cyan at 700mA, and the violets n' blues from a 12v supply using resistors. Since I already technically have lights for my 10g, these can be a trial run for a 120g lighting setup, and in the meantime I can simulate direct sunlight on my 10g tank! The total cost for the build will run around $250, which is still cheaper than any _comparable_ commercial lamp, e.g. aquaillumination or kessil, at 3x the power and higher CRI!

I didn't do a lot of research on the 3000k cobs though, is there anything that would work better than the CXM-18?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> CXM-18


That's funny.. That is the "alternate" to the studio high CRI ww..
Pretty sure those are on my 55 gal atm...

good choice if I say so myself..


----------



## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> That's funny.. That is the "alternate" to the studio high CRI ww..
> Pretty sure those are on my 55 gal atm...
> 
> good choice if I say so myself..


Well that's the xnova 3000k data I first shared, if it helps. Have you tried putting it right next to the fresh fish to see how well they'd mix?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Checked mouser..



> Mouser Part #896-14309536AA00F23
> Manufacturer Part #CXM-14-30-95-36-AA00-F2-3
> Manufacturer:Luminus Devices
> Description:
> High Power LEDs - White Warm White, 3000K 1660lm, 400mA,95 CRI



Got the smaller ones..


----------



## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Checked mouser..
> 
> Got the smaller ones..


That should be perfect considering you're running the fresh fish at half power. I also did some messing around, and you can use violet LEDs to boost the R12 response up to 95-98 and keep the total CRI at 98. You just have to use cyan LEDs to counteract the violet, mixing to create neutral white.



> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> myData xnova-3000k.csv [115°] x0.3
> myData fresh-fish.csv [115°] x1
> ...





> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> myData xnova-3000k.csv [115°] x1
> myData fresh-fish.csv [115°] x0.65
> ...


----------



## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

^ those sets look great.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Got my x-mas Seneye today.. will do a better report in a bit.. 
Wanted to do some quick PAR measurements but to be honest.. it's a PIA to maneuver and record w/ it tethered to a PC .. 
Not really impressed as of yet.
Already guessed from other data that "if" the PAR measurements are correct the LUX ones are really, really off.. by about a factor of 2..
Have no reason to doubt the PAR measurements btw..Others have crunched the numbers..
Spectrum is wonky for some things. Couldn't get near 6500K w/ the ff except w/in inches of the sensor. May not be unusual due to the amount of stray light in the green/orange ranges in the tank..

Bought it strictly for the PAR measurements.. which I took w/ herculean effort of a sort and hit "record" only to disappear into cyber-space.. never to be seen again...

Seneye V2 doesn't work on my android tablet though v1 (just called Seneye at the playstore) does..

Oh as to the ff at 8" PAR is well over 100..........
Graph of the Sorra violet based chip shows no "violet" spike of any kind..
Leading me to suspect a simple RGB sensor interpolation of spectrum..

Lum. Dev 4000k registered much lower K value..

Did try some open air reading but optical path may be tweaked for wet only..
Well for $130 what does one expect..
For people w/ deeper pockets.. get the Apogee 520....
WAS $285..no longer..

Now I'll be awaiting my cheap Win10 tablet to streamline things..
Goll..le.. finally showed up
About 8 1/2" light to sensor.. each chip individually 500mA or less..









Take them as 'ballpark" only..


----------



## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Got my x-mas Seneye today.. will do a better report in a bit..
> 
> Oh as to the ff at 8" PAR is well over 100..........
> Graph of the Sorra violet based chip shows no "violet" spike of any kind..
> ...


Spectra shows that the fresh fish is actually around 6850K, and the seneye under-represents at the blue levels. I'd increase readings you get by ~25% to account for the fresh fish's blue spike and fairly low reds. Also take note that seneye themselves have said they used a RGB sensor and calibrated it to correlate with full-spectrum measurements. Take the spectral weighting of the sensor into account and it should be even more accurate. Alternatively buy a cheap multimeter and get the apogee 500 module so you can get a highly accurate representation for ~$300. Either way, those are great PAR measurements for a single COB running half-power. I'm going to have to change my carpeting plant to something more demanding, as these easy-growing tripartita will take off even faster..


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> seneye themselves have said they used a RGB sensor


Never read that anywhere.. Actually wrote to them regarding it.. 



> Alternatively buy a cheap multimeter and get the apogee 500 module so you can get a highly accurate representation for ~$300.


also need an amplifier board (which oddly enough I already have) since the 500 has a really low level output.. unlike the old Apogees..
https://blueacro.com/par-light-sensors/SQ500_with_arduino


> Amplifies 10uV (microvolt) signals to milli-volt signals (100x gain)


520 was on black Friday sale at $289 (or close).. no longer..

Actually was a close call at the time..but seneye is growing on me.


----------



## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

Well, everything is ordered. I already got the heatsink in and man, this thing is heavy: 98 oz; almost 6 lbs! I ordered another fan from mouser along with the LEDs and power supply just to make sure I'm getting enough flow through the hotspots created by the LED arrangements. Total project cost: $245. The only change from my prior arrangement is getting an extra cyan and violet LED so there will be two triple-led stars, one with Violet, cyan, cyan, and the other with violet, blue, and cyan. Now we wait!



> > seneye themselves have said they used a RGB sensor
> 
> 
> Never read that anywhere.. Actually wrote to them regarding it..


I think I heard it from a bulkreefsupply video that was comparing PAR meters. Along with not having cosine correction, it doesn't seem worth it compared to the apogees unless you're utilizing the other functions available in the device.


----------



## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

You guys should throw the CrispWhite on the custom spectra loadout-

https://www.lumileds.com/products/cob-leds/luxeon-cob-with-crispwhite

Beyond my skill...


----------



## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

Lingwendil said:


> You guys should throw the CrispWhite on the custom spectra loadout-
> 
> https://www.lumileds.com/products/cob-leds/luxeon-cob-with-crispwhite
> 
> Beyond my skill...


It looks like it's just the 3000k-esque chips with some blue and violet leds mixed in. Also if you follow the simple-easy-to-use-guide I posted earlier in this thread, you can import any spectrum you want. If there's something unclear in the guide, tell me so I can improve it for others!


----------



## Kampo (Nov 3, 2015)

SpringHalo said:


> It looks like it's just the 3000k-esque chips with some blue and violet leds mixed in. Also if you follow the simple-easy-to-use-guide I posted earlier in this thread, you can import any spectrum you want. If there's something unclear in the guide, tell me so I can improve it for others!


the violet is nice though, since I don't really want a separate diode for violet for a fresh tank and from what i've read most run them super dim so having a bit on your warm chip should work nice, I can imagine you should get some nice highlights off fish if you keep the type of fish that react well to it.

i'll have to see if I can figure out how to add it, kinda got a theory two of the 1202 chips (the small one of the crisp whites) matched with the 1211 (big Fresh Fish) would make a very good light with no real holes anywhere.


----------



## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

SpringHalo said:


> Spectra shows that the fresh fish is actually around 6850K, and the seneye under-represents at the blue levels. I'd increase readings you get by ~25% to account for the fresh fish's blue spike and fairly low reds. Also take note that seneye themselves have said they used a RGB sensor and calibrated it to correlate with full-spectrum measurements. Take the spectral weighting of the sensor into account and it should be even more accurate. Alternatively buy a cheap multimeter and get the apogee 500 module so you can get a highly accurate representation for ~$300. Either way, those are great PAR measurements for a single COB running half-power. I'm going to have to change my carpeting plant to something more demanding, as these easy-growing tripartita will take off even faster..


The original seneye got a huge upgrade with the v2 software suite and firmware. They tweaked it to calculate PAR much closer to the MQ-510 as I have tested mine against it.

There is a new seneye coral coming out in Q2 2018 that will add a co2 sensor on it to calculate alk in relation to ph. I emailed to ask if the software can also show just the co2 as well as it would be beneficial to the planted folk and they said that would not be a problem.






The seneye is within 0.4% of a Li-Cor 1500 with a Giesemann 6500K T5 bulb, 2% with a blue plus bulb and 4.5% with a true actinic.


----------



## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

SpringHalo said:


> Is this uncharted territory? In case it hasn't been shared before I'll give a quick tutorial on how to trace and import from spectrum graphs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So, uh, I'm lost. I can't do this without a decent text editor. Apparently It keeps doubling up on some of the spectrum when it outputs the data too for some reason-


```
390	 0.03487540687997559
395	 0.08421084933978518
400	 0.21063292064304706
400	 0.18288173425940424
405	 0.36172271317621385
405	 0.3391106353821345
410	 0.5241185446064203
410	 0.5066455754019046
415	 0.5045899319660792
415	 0.47992221073617425
415	 0.45422666778835685
420	 0.2723022237178092
420	 0.24043975046251553
425	 0.15101926100411067
430	 0.12532371805629305
435	 0.1438245089787218
440	 0.19315995143853126
445	 0.2825804408969361
450	 0.39564082986733295
450	 0.38022350409864236
455	 0.5066455754019044
460	 0.4830056758899124
460	 0.4593657763779202
465	 0.35247231771499954
470	 0.28463608433276144
475	 0.23530064187295185
480	 0.20241034689974557
485	 0.19110430800270584
490	 0.2054938120534836
495	 0.23530064187295197
500	 0.2784691540252854
505	 0.32677677476718214
510	 0.3843347909702932
515	 0.4346980551480155
520	 0.4902004279153013
525	 0.5261741880422457
530	 0.5672870567587538
535	 0.6012051734498728
545	 0.6556797244992458
550	 0.6793196240112379
555	 0.695764771497841
560	 0.7142655624202696
565	 0.7327663533426982
570	 0.7512671442651269
575	 0.7749070437771189
580	 0.798546943289111
585	 0.8221868428011031
590	 0.8550771377743094
595	 0.8848839675937777
600	 0.9126351539774206
605	 0.9414141620789761
610	 0.9619705964372302
615	 0.9835548525133968
620	 0.9948608914104365
625	 0.9948608914104365
630	 0.9876661393850477
635	 0.9804713873596587
640	 0.9506645575401904
645	 0.9157186191311587
650	 0.873577928696738
655	 0.8283537731085793
660	 0.7800461523666824
665	 0.7214603144456586
670	 0.6669857633962855
675	 0.6042886386036108
680	 0.5518697309900632
685	 0.5004786450944283
690	 0.4490875591987932
695	 0.3997521167389836
700	 0.35966706974038865
705	 0.3144429141522297
710	 0.2733300454357218
715	 0.24043975046251542
720	 0.21166074236095977
725	 0.18493737769522978
730	 0.15821401302949945
735	 0.13560193523542008
740	 0.119156787748817
745	 0.10065599682638837
750	 0.0883221362114357
755	 0.07496045387857075
760	 0.06365441498153102
765	 0.05543184123822942
770	 0.04618144577701522
780	 0.03487540687997559
785	 0.02870847657249931
790	 0.026652833136673992
795	 0.022541546265023138
```

I just want a crispwhite to play with :frown:


This is the one I was trying to import-

Lumileds L2C5-30901202E06C0


----------



## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

Lingwendil said:


> So, uh, I'm lost. I can't do this without a decent text editor. Apparently It keeps doubling up on some of the spectrum when it outputs the data too for some reason-
> 
> I just want a crispwhite to play with :frown:
> 
> ...


Ah, I didn't elaborate enough in step 6. You can fix those issues by changing it to X-step with interpolation, or by messing with line step. With interpolation I haven't messed with the smoothing option, but it still works better for the peaky areas. Since it's my fault it wasn't in the guide, I went ahead and made files for the 1202 and 1203. I think a 2:1 ore 3:1 of the 1203 will work better with the fresh fish, since the FF is so obscenely powerful. You will notice on the xy color plot that it's slightly purpleish, which can be fixed with cyan diodes, or could look fine as is. Thanks for giving the tutorial a shot!

Edit: using 1:0.5 Fresh-fish:1203 gives 99 CRI at D65, 0.5:2 gives 99 CRI at D50 and 0:2 gives 95 CRI at A weight 2850k. Sounds like a healthy combo to me!

Also I realized my first export of the fresh fish used the "bread and pastries" lumen output of 3464 instead of the correct value of 3694, so I added that to the zip as well.


----------



## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

SpringHalo said:


> Ah, I didn't elaborate enough in step 6. You can fix those issues by changing it to X-step with interpolation, or by messing with line step. With interpolation I haven't messed with the smoothing option, but it still works better for the peaky areas. Since it's my fault it wasn't in the guide, I went ahead and made files for the 1202 and 1203. I think a 2:1 ore 3:1 of the 1203 will work better with the fresh fish, since the FF is so obscenely powerful. You will notice on the xy color plot that it's slightly purpleish, which can be fixed with cyan diodes, or could look fine as is. Thanks for giving the tutorial a shot!
> 
> Also I realized my first export of the fresh fish used the "bread and pastries" lumen output of 3464 instead of the correct value of 3694, so I added that to the zip as well.




Dang, you the man!


This is really cool. That Crispwhite actually looks pretty good now that I can play with it a bit. The 1202 and a fresh fish actually looks like an excellent starting point, or even the 1202 and a handful of Sunplus cool whites.


This is pretty exciting!


----------



## Kampo (Nov 3, 2015)

Lingwendil said:


> Dang, you the man!
> 
> 
> This is really cool. That Crispwhite actually looks pretty good now that I can play with it a bit. The 1202 and a fresh fish actually looks like an excellent starting point, or even the 1202 and a handful of Sunplus cool whites.
> ...


this pretty much sold me, getting a couple 1202 crisp white + a fresh fish for my fresh water cube project. seems about the simplest 2 channel setup i've seen. reason for 2 1202, is that they require a 200ma driver, and there are no 200ma ldd drivers, so plan on running them in parallel at 300ma.


----------



## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

Kampo said:


> this pretty much sold me, getting a couple 1202 crisp white + a fresh fish for my fresh water cube project. seems about the simplest 2 channel setup i've seen. reason for 2 1202, is that they require a 200ma driver, and there are no 200ma ldd drivers, so plan on running them in parallel at 300ma.


Why not just get the same 1208 package as the fresh fish? They have comparable lumen output, and current rating. You can change the spectra file to 1208 by changing the lumens value to 3300 instead of 1006 when you import it to the tool. I come to Kalamazoo on weekends sometimes, so maybe we can compare lights if you get the crisp whites. 
Fresh Fish 1208 3694 lm
Crisp White 1208 3300 lm

Also, you can run most of these CoBs at much higher than their 'tested' current, as shown in this image. So long as they're cooled sufficiently they'll go much higher than what they're tested for. Same with the luxeon rebel lines; they're rated for 350mA but people routinely run them at 1000mA. I'm planning on running the fresh fish at 1000mA, but if it stays cool I can easily increase it since a more powerful driver is cheaper than another LED.


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## Kampo (Nov 3, 2015)

haha i saw you were in michigan but didn't want to get internet stalker creepy about asking if you were in my neck of the woods. and year i'd be game for that, love having people check out my fish room and stuff. prolly will be a month at least befor this tank is operational, stands enter production next week. then hopfully when I have 6 days off arround xmas i can have some time to play 

reason I like the idea of the smaller cobs is I like symmetry, so my thought is if you have there 1208 fresh fish in the middle and the 1202 on either side it will give more even light than if you just has 2 1208s sitting next to eachother i have some of my original protype lights in my fish room give some funky haloing because I had a sub optimal layout to the strips, fine for a fish room but not for a display.


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## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

Kampo said:


> haha i saw you were in michigan but didn't want to get internet stalker creepy about asking if you were in my neck of the woods. and year i'd be game for that, love having people check out my fish room and stuff. prolly will be a month at least befor this tank is operational, stands enter production next week. then hopfully when I have 6 days off arround xmas i can have some time to play
> 
> reason I like the idea of the smaller cobs is I like symmetry, so my thought is if you have there 1208 fresh fish in the middle and the 1202 on either side it will give more even light than if you just has 2 1208s sitting next to eachother i have some of my original protype lights in my fish room give some funky haloing because I had a sub optimal layout to the strips, fine for a fish room but not for a display.


Hopefully my fixture will be fully functional the way I want it to be by that time too. As you can see in these pictures the spread is pretty awful coming from two spotlights 9" apart. I'll probably buy a new, longer heatsink and get one more set of LEDs before I'm satisfied with the light spread. Here are some shots showing this and the beamswork though (all shot at 4250K color temperature for comparison):

Beamswork (50w)









Full "6500k" fresh fish (100% FF, 80% blue, 30% cyan, 100% violet)









"5000K" (40% WW, 100% FF, 20% blue, 40% cyan, 75% violet)









My current conclusions are that I don't have enough blue LEDs to get as cool a temperature as the beamswork, the cyan LEDs are a little overpowering (could just go with 1 instead of 3) and that I could use a red LED for better sunset-esque shots. I do like the combination of 100% 3000K and 100% violet (2 LEDs) since everything pops, albeit unnaturally. The 'crisp white' cobs may end up being the ideal combination with a fresh fish or a bunch of sunplus cool whites.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

So you did this w/ only 2 sets.. correct?










you need to be about 8" off the water line for good coverage w/ that beam angle and spacing..
Odd thing.. the COB's don't seem to spread as "naturally"as most other chips..



> I don't have enough blue LEDs to get as cool a temperature as the beamswork


W/ 10000K whites and RGB.. not unexpected..
Effective color temp is like 15000-18000K..

CRI is probably in the 40's...


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## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> So you did this w/ only 2 sets.. correct?
> 
> you need to be about 8" off the water line for good coverage w/ that beam angle and spacing..
> Odd thing.. the COB's don't seem to spread as "naturally"as most other chips..
> ...


The problem with 8" spacing is that the 120 degree beam angle makes the light spill over the top edges of the tank. I can get at most 5" above the tank rim before spillage occurs (9"/sqrt(3)). Right now it's only about 2", but I have a hanging kit in the mail so I can bring it up a few more inches. Also I have some 60 degree lenses coming in from china that I'll try to adapt and see if they improve the spread high up.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

so.. go w/ 5" and slide the pucks together about 1-2"..........

suggest putting them all "in line" as well...........


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## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

SpringHalo said:


> Hopefully my fixture will be fully functional the way I want it to be by that time too. As you can see in these pictures the spread is pretty awful coming from two spotlights 9" apart. I'll probably buy a new, longer heatsink and get one more set of LEDs before I'm satisfied with the light spread. Here are some shots showing this and the beamswork though (all shot at 4250K color temperature for comparison):
> 
> Beamswork (50w)
> 
> ...


Maybe swap out a couple of the cyan for regular blues, and throw in a couple deep or "far" red? For sunrise/sunset it shouldn't take more than one per cluster, and I would be inclined to try the far red.

Regardless, it looks pretty good in each pic, but I like it a bit more blue/cool looking.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

I'm liking the 6500K look.
Are you going to put some plants in there?:grin2:


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

SpringHalo said:


> The problem with 8" spacing is that the 120 degree beam angle makes the light spill over the top edges of the tank. I can get at most 5" above the tank rim before spillage occurs (9"/sqrt(3)). Right now it's only about 2", but I have a hanging kit in the mail so I can bring it up a few more inches. Also I have some 60 degree lenses coming in from china that I'll try to adapt and see if they improve the spread high up.


Anything new with your light? Was hoping for an update.


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## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> Anything new with your light? Was hoping for an update.


Ah, sorry for the silence, I've been pretty busy lately, with my 10gal, 5.5gal molly fry tank, a good deal on 5 adult discus which required a quick 75gal setup, and the like. I currently have the light disassembled in preparation for lopping the heatsink in half and putting the halves 2ft apart in the hood of my new 75 stand. I have a few pictures I've snapped over the last few months which I'll add here.

Main conclusions about the light though:

Transitioning between 6500k to 5000k to 3000k throughout the day makes the tank blend nicely into the house while still being a centerpiece
2 Violet LEDs per grouping might add a bit too much PAR, I usually ran them at 70%
3 cyan LEDs per group was too much; could've gone with 1
1 Lime LED doesn't change much when you already have so much white
1 Deep red LED really enhances the colors of orange discus, will need more DR to make the red plants pop more
*High CRI LEDs are excellent on their own, but auxillary LEDs are necessary for true "pop"*

My new build will more closely follow @Xiaozhuang 's lighting mix (4 Red, 1 Royal Blue, 4 3000k, 4 5000k, 2 6500k) by using 10 deep red LEDs and 2 royal blue LEDs, 1 6500k FF, and 1 3000k xnova for each half. I'll post updates once I get things growing again, as I had pretty bad algae issues following a leaky CO2 regulator and subsequent removal of CO2. Until then, have some pictures.


















































New stand for 75g Deep Blue, 40gal sump. Basic 2x4 frame skinned with 3/4" maple ply and maple trim. I'll make a thread for it eventually. Disregard the dodgers hat, that's my roommate's.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

SpringHalo said:


> New stand for 75g Deep Blue, 40gal sump. Basic 2x4 frame skinned with 3/4" maple ply and maple trim. I'll make a thread for it eventually. Disregard the dodgers hat, that's my roommate's.


Lookin good! Your maple stand is similar to the one I built for my 75g. I'm still waiting for a warm day to spray the clearcoat.

My new light is based around high CRI 5000K lights and adjustable Blue, Deep Red, and Cyan channels, with RBlue and Violet supplementing the whites.

Based on what I know, its possible to raise the color temperature by adding cyan / blue to a 5000k (while also increasing CRI), so I've taken a chance and skipped the 6500K channel and based everything on 5000k. 

Getting yellow is more difficult. I'm going to experiment with red/green mixing to get warmer tones, but suspect I will end up adding a 2700K channel for dusk/dawn.


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## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> Lookin good! Your maple stand is similar to the one I built for my 75g. I'm still waiting for a warm day to spray the clearcoat.
> 
> My new light is based around high CRI 5000K lights and adjustable Blue, Deep Red, and Cyan channels, with RBlue and Violet supplementing the whites.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I've just been sponge-brushing on waterborne polyurethane, and spray painted the inside flat white. The plywood is pre-finished so I only really need to worry about the trim.

You can get yellow with Deep Red and Lime, I've attached spectra csvs for those along with the deeper royal blue bins that stevesleds has. The big problem with individual colored leds is that they're only 3W, so it takes 10 of em to equal one of the bigger COBs I use. With your smaller 10W 1304s it should be easier to match intensities.

I ended up pulling the trigger on 4 5000k and 3000k 1304s and tossed them on 48" of linear "HD" heatsink from Steve's for the bare bottomed 75 discus tank. I'm pretty sure I need to add a couple deep reds to the mix, as the melon discus doesn't pop as much as with the other light. About $100 all-in so far. I also 3d printed some dual 1304 COB holders (for the 5000k and 3000k chips) that turned out pretty nice and made installation a breeze.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

SpringHalo said:


> Thanks! I've just been sponge-brushing on waterborne polyurethane, and spray painted the inside flat white. The plywood is pre-finished so I only really need to worry about the trim.
> 
> You can get yellow with Deep Red and Lime, I've attached spectra csvs for those along with the deeper royal blue bins that stevesleds has. The big problem with individual colored leds is that they're only 3W, so it takes 10 of em to equal one of the bigger COBs I use. With your smaller 10W 1304s it should be easier to match intensities.
> 
> I ended up pulling the trigger on 4 5000k and 3000k 1304s and tossed them on 48" of linear "HD" heatsink from Steve's for the bare bottomed 75 discus tank. I'm pretty sure I need to add a couple deep reds to the mix, as the melon discus doesn't pop as much as with the other light. About $100 all-in so far. I also 3d printed some dual 1304 COB holders (for the 5000k and 3000k chips) that turned out pretty nice and made installation a breeze.


I am basing my light around the Twinstar S. It appears that with the right ratios of red,blue, and cyan they have created a higher K look with plenty of pop. Dennis' tanks are amazing. His BML with 45* optics and higher mounting, creates more contrast/shadows because the light is coming from a single "point". I think it will be difficult to recreate his look without the optics and a very high mounting location.

To me, the bigger COBs only make sense on DEEP tanks that require reflectors. Its difficult/expensive to put reflectors on many small COBs. You can get many cheap reflectors for the 3W epis on the bay, but there aren't any truly high-CRI 3W leds, afaik. Most of them are 70-80 cri. At least the FF is a wide viewing angle so spreading them on top of your 75 should work ok, but yeah, mixing with smaller ones is more difficult.

Good idea on 3d printing mounting rings for the C1304s. I've debated buying mounting rings, but with the modular design of my heat sinks, its unlikely I will ever need to move them.


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## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> I am basing my light around the Twinstar S. It appears that with the right ratios of red,blue, and cyan they have created a higher K look with plenty of pop. Dennis' tanks are amazing. His BML with 45* optics and higher mounting, creates more contrast/shadows because the light is coming from a single "point". I think it will be difficult to recreate his look without the optics and a very high mounting location.
> 
> To me, the bigger COBs only make sense on DEEP tanks that require reflectors. Its difficult/expensive to put reflectors on many small COBs. You can get many cheap reflectors for the 3W epis on the bay, but there aren't any truly high-CRI 3W leds, afaik. Most of them are 70-80 cri. At least the FF is a wide viewing angle so spreading them on top of your 75 should work ok, but yeah, mixing with smaller ones is more difficult.
> 
> Good idea on 3d printing mounting rings for the C1304s. I've debated buying mounting rings, but with the modular design of my heat sinks, its unlikely I will ever need to move them.


Well as you can see, my canopy is roughly 20" tall, so that should give plenty of spread along with softer illumination from diffuse reflections on the sides, while also giving decent shadows due to only having 2 kessil-esque point sources of light. I may look into 3d printing some reflector dishes if I don't like the look, and with $0.10 and a couple hours for each revision, I should be able to get something passable. They don't need to be highly efficient since it's 120W of LEDs, so I have plenty of room for error.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

SpringHalo said:


> I ended up pulling the trigger on 4 5000k and 3000k 1304s and tossed them on 48" of linear "HD" heatsink from Steve's for the bare bottomed 75 discus tank.


Which bins did you get? There are a large range of parts in that series. Do you have any pics with them on the tank?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

SpringHalo said:


> Thanks! I've just been sponge-brushing on waterborne polyurethane, and spray painted the inside flat white. .


Want to get real anal. find some barium sulfate laced paint for the inside..
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct..._Sulfate.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2SalFIayw1tt6comaizlhE


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

Hi I just wanted to chime in with a couple of points. 
If anyone wants to follow my tank's LED selection I recommend switching out one of the 6500k or 5000K leds for a blue instead. As it is, I think the tank's color rendition is a bit warm for most folks. It fits warm interiors but if your room has very cool lighting, it may stand out as being too red/yellowish.

The other technical point I wanted to point out is that CRI ratings by themselves doesn't directly translate into better contrast colors in a planted tank - especially when using LEDs. Lighting marketing would tell you that higher CRI = better color rendition, but its not the case especially with LEDs. The reason is that the way CRI is calculated. CRI's calculation is based on comparing color accuracy of an artificial light source to that of a black body generator light source of the same kelvin rating. Because of the way K rating and CRI is calculated for commercial light sources, you can end up with a low CRI light that gives brilliant color rendition in a tank. And consequently a high CRI light can just look mediocre or plain ugly. Take for example an incandescent light bulb (old school type). By definition its a black body generator light source, so it has 100 CRI - despite this, incandescent bulb render tanks in too warm tones that don't show off blues and lighter tones well. Few folks will actually like the color rendition despite the 100 CRI rating. While my light below has only a CRI of 70+... but renders color well...
Don't make the mistake of thinking that higher CRI = actual/better color of things ; the number is not calculated that way so simply.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> you can end up with a low CRI light that gives brilliant color rendition in a tank.


but not exactly "natural".... 
"candy colored" t5's prove that point I would say..




> And consequently a high CRI light can just look mediocre or plain ugly.


Depends on which standard you are using..
Using standard "a" (2856K) yes high CRI will probably be considered ugly.
D50 (5000k-ish) is different as well

Very few high CRI based on d65 (6500k-ish) will look ugly (probably could be more definitive here) and mediocre is a matter of opinion....
Having the full range of color wavelengths at decent quantities almost precludes mediocre or ugly.
Sad part is few diodes of this caliber are available to most and the 6500k diodes put in most commercial fixtures pale in comparison to that quality (conjecture a bit )
ADA is apparently an exception IF that is what they use. Even if lower k bet CRI is high.
Start w/ high color fidelity it is easy to "punch up" any color you want..

Doesn't mean it's perfect nor individually desirable..

Lots of subjectivity ...

Yes overall tone is personal.........................and a personal opinion.
Should one shoot for high d65CRI??.. Personal opinion..
My take on it is you won't make a mistake if you just want a good looking natural tank and pick cyan enhanced, red enhanced high CRI high K whites..

If one had to pick one diode for a tank..I'd pick that one.

Not to argue but to put some personal perspective on it.
Freely admit to not chasing red, just want all colors in fish and plants represented..

That's how I see it, others may differ.. and that is a good thing..


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## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> Which bins did you get? There are a large range of parts in that series. Do you have any pics with them on the tank?


The tank is bare bottom at the moment so it won't really give you a good idea of anything imo.



Xiaozhuang said:


> Hi I just wanted to chime in with a couple of points.
> If anyone wants to follow my tank's LED selection I recommend switching out one of the 6500k or 5000K leds for a blue instead. As it is, I think the tank's color rendition is a bit warm for most folks. It fits warm interiors but if your room has very cool lighting, it may stand out as being too red/yellowish.
> 
> The other technical point I wanted to point out is that CRI ratings by themselves doesn't directly translate into better contrast colors in a planted tank - especially when using LEDs. Lighting marketing would tell you that higher CRI = better color rendition, but its not the case especially with LEDs. The reason is that the way CRI is calculated. CRI's calculation is based on comparing color accuracy of an artificial light source to that of a black body generator light source of the same kelvin rating. Because of the way K rating and CRI is calculated for commercial light sources, you can end up with a low CRI light that gives brilliant color rendition in a tank. And consequently a high CRI light can just look mediocre or plain ugly. Take for example an incandescent light bulb (old school type). By definition its a black body generator light source, so it has 100 CRI - despite this, incandescent bulb render tanks in too warm tones that don't show off blues and lighter tones well. Few folks will actually like the color rendition despite the 100 CRI rating. While my light below has only a CRI of 70+... but renders color well...
> Don't make the mistake of thinking that higher CRI = actual/better color of things ; the number is not calculated that way so simply.


Hey Dennis, thanks for chiming in! Your new website has been a great resource for me planning my new 75g build, and the latest light build is also based on your principles. It might be a good idea for everyone here to differentiate the terms "rendition" and "rendering" in the context of lights, or maybe come up with a different term for "visual appeal." Rendering, as you mention, is _the ability of a light source to reveal the colors of various objects faithfully in comparison with an ideal or natural light source_ (eg. sunlight in D65 and D50 color spaces, and a 2650k blackbody in the A space). Whereas I feel an accurate definition of rendition (visual appeal) is a visual _representation_ or reproduction of color, often in a dramatic manner. 

The main reason I believe some people stick to CRI is because it's a standardized measure that starts you off at _neutral rendering_ of color, which can then be customized for additional _rendition_ by using LEDs such as red, green, and blue. I happen to have a pretty hefty amount of red, green, and blue LEDs now that I'm going to use to experiment to get better visual appeal in my new tank.

The only thing stopping me now is that I have no algae free plants to grow! :laugh2:


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Yes his site is quite excellent.. Make no mistake about it..
To be honest we only have very minor differences of opinion. 
Thought that was worth stating..

I guess now that I think about it the biggest difference is considering the tank as an architectural component vs a biotype or natural display..
does change the lighting parameters..

Bump:


SpringHalo said:


> I happen to have a pretty hefty amount of red, green, and blue LEDs now that I'm going to use to experiment to get better visual appeal in my new tank.


You need cyan diodes.. 
Green are a compromise..


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## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> You need cyan diodes..
> Green are a compromise..


What color is chlorophyll?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

SpringHalo said:


> What color is chlorophyll?











What color is "missing" ????










hmm, maybe makes more sense to put it another way:
Ch.A what doesn't it absorb it reflects/transmits for the most part:










On the more positive side.. green diodes "smear" quite a bit, so not as bad as I presented it..

so what color is chlorophyll?.. Between 450-550nm mostly..depending on the color of light 



By being low in cyan all greens (blue-green to slightly yellow green) become sort of monotone..

O/T new Nichia 5000k high CRI chart..


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

I don't disagree with jeffkrol at all. At least the lighting section here has a decent keeper with him active. 

However, I said what I said as it is also based on what I observe from general aquarists views/actions. They may say they want accurate color rendition, but other than biotope enthusiasts and/or botanists, what many aquarists prefer is lighting that give higher and stronger color contrast, overwhelmingly so, (and not necessarily natural or accurate tones in that sense). And I see this across cultures (both east and west) - many folks constantly changing lighting fixtures till they get that look. Human's color perception (and indeed of reality itself) is extremely circumstantial as well as easily manipulated. For example, the first time you see an ADA RGB fixture in real life - you would instantly feel that the green is super/over saturated, and that the reds are exaggerated as well. However, if you spend 5 minutes in the ADA gallery, with all tanks lit similarly, your eyes get used to it and you get the feeling that everything just has a good contrast. Trained photographers probably still retain their objectivity, but most folks will just sink into the "new reality". In our tanks similarly we create fantasies of natural surroundings, try to create an insane amount of depth in a laughably small space etc. To that extent, I feel that for most aquarists, anything that complements/improves the illusion, which humans delight in anyway, should be done.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Just for fun and going through some old history and feeling sad BML no longer serves our market...
BML designed a "Discus" light..
My New LED from Build My LED - review with pics - Page 2

















About the same as my old Finnex -R clip light
7000K whites and 660nm red.. no blue as in the new ones..

Helps to define a goal..Now if they they were predominantly blue discus........

gory details:


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

jeffkrol said:


> Just for fun and going through some old history and feeling sad BML no longer serves our market...
> BML designed a "Discus" light..
> My New LED from Build My LED - review with pics - Page 2
> 
> ...


Actually I do also have a similar (red/white) one from BML but labeled it as the orchid spectrum at that time. It has generally good neutral color rendering, but I didn't find it outstanding, so I used it for growing terrestrial plants instead.


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## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

Anybody import the luxeon "mint" and "PC amber" into spectra yet?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Lingwendil said:


> Anybody import the luxeon "mint" and "PC amber" into spectra yet?


thought I did both..

got the pc amber 



mint is just lime w/ a 450nm peak added:
like this..


> myData lime.csv [120°] x1
> LED RoyalBlue (450nm) [120°] x0.1
> ----------------------------------------
> 
> ...


---------------------------------------


If I get some time I'll do it later .. formally..

I have no access atm to "upload" the file though..


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