# Overflow sump for planted tank



## all4funwfish (Jan 18, 2004)

Sumps are typically left on saltwater systems, as a majority of a sump is based on biological filtration over the rocks surfaces. Filtration for planted tanks is much less crucial, as the plants themselves raise the water quality, and a cannister filter is plenty. Basically they are just too much work, and not cost effective. Im not saying it wouldnt work, and im not sure about CO2 loss, though im sure that it would be higher than without a sump. Anyway, you will find very few who use a sump on a planted tank.


----------



## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

There are a few with sumps. I have mine mainly to get hardware out of the tank (but there are lot of good examples of running external heater/reactor on an canister.) That said, I run a sump (not wet dry) and it is lit with fish and plants too. My only "filtration" is mechanical with the tiny sponge that shipped with the Mag 7. Do a search for George Booth and turbulence in a sump to see what it does to CO2.


----------



## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

I'd just like to post a view from "the other side"...

I think it would be fair to say I hail from a group of hobbyist that have gone to great lengths to get equipment out of a tank. And if you aren't using a sump, that means massive amount of in-line stuff. And in the case of some extremists like myself, even resorting to bulkheads.

I want to go on the record and say that the in-line route is a major PITA. IMO, people that want to get equipment out of the tank should be giving sumps a harder look.

For myself, the next time I set up a major planted tank, I'm going to be giving sumps a REAL hard look. It looks like a really clean, simple way to hide equipment.


----------



## TWood (Nov 1, 2005)

I set up my 90 gallon with an in-tank sump. About six inches in from one end I installed a sheet of 1/4" plexiglass with a 1/2" deep by 8" wide notch cut into the top for the overflow. (Glass tank, 48"x24"x18") At the bottom of the acrylic there is a small notch for a 1/2" PVC pipe to pass through that feeds back into the show portion of the tank. That notch and the edges of the plexi are sealed with silicone so the sump area is completely sealed off from the rest of the tank.

At first I had a submersible pump at the bottom of the sump that fed into that 1/2" pipe, which in turn feeds two return pipes at the back corners of the main part of the tank. But that never got the clarity or water movement I wanted. So now an external Little Giant sucks out of the sump area and then feeds back into that 1/2" pipe. I also added a separate canister filter.

The main advantage of a sump is that water loss from evaporation doesn't show up in the main tank, the change in water level only shows in the sump. I like the in-tank sump because it is a simplified plumbing project, and also because 36" PC lamps work well over the remaining 42" of tank width.

TW

Here's a fuzzy picture. The sump portion of the tank is enclosed within the cabinet to the right, the right edge of the tank goes all the way to the right of the cabinet. The tank itself ends a couple of inches into the cabinet to the left, the remainder of the left cabinet houses the CO2 cylinder and the electrical stuff. The color of the paint is actually much darker than the flash made this look.


----------



## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

I know that my drilled 110 gallon with the external sump is the easiest of the 10 planted tanks I have to take care of. Initial cost of the sump, outfitting it, and tweaking the flow is an issue, I pay nothing to maintain it. I am using 2 sponge filters driven by a powerhead, a uv sterilizer driven by a powerhead, 2-250 watt jager heaters connected to a controller, powered CO2 reactor, PH monitor/controller, temperature alarm, and duckweed to eat phosphate which is all contained in the sump, no equipment is in the tank. I also have 22 extra gallons of water in my tank because of the sump. Some say that you will experience outgassing of CO2 using a sump, I do not. The major factors with CO2 concentration using a sump is tweaking the overflow rate and minimizing turbulence in the sump. I installed a check valve in the return line so I could fill the sump with more water which helps in many ways. As far as adjustments go, you have to see what works for you, my sump is oversized for my tank and all work differently. Since all the fish in the tank are wild caught, water quality/temperature are an issue for me and I like the extra water. I have a T installed on the overflow piping that drains the sump for water changes which is a huge benefit. I change out all the water twice over a one month period, just connect the hose, turn the ball valves and walk away for a while, very easy water changes. Every display tank I buy in the future will have a sump, some of my tanks are being replaced by drilled tanks so I can use sumps on them.


----------



## medicineman (Sep 28, 2005)

Haha.. as I expected many will support overflow sump system in their tank. I'm just curious because this 260gal tank I'm using is an old reef tank that has seen better days. I'm so amazed by the durability of this tank and the cabinet after all this 15 years of mostly salt water and a nasty flooding half the cabinet 5 years ago. Yet it stands tall and unexpectedly do well on a planted setup. Must have been no1 quality of wood used. 

Yes gentlemen, I strongly agree with you guys that this kind of filtration system have its points of:
1. Being able to help hiding all the stuff from display. You can put your heater, CO2 reactor, filter, bioballs, chiller, etc you can think out of one's imagination and creativity.
2. lots of extra volume of water. Translates to improved stability on chemistry and temperature. Have that huge tank sump for filter under your cabinet? make another tank out of em! :icon_bigg who knows if you have some fry to raise safely yet without further hassle. Also translates to a bit more dose of ferts to water collumn, but no worry if one is using PMDD

@Diablo
That is a nice plan of plumbing! I'd do some modification on my existing plumbing some day. Forget all the spills and pain of waiting and holding hose on top of the tank roud: 
By the way, what's your best way to tweak the flow? by adjusting water level/overflow piping height/filter drag/sump pumping rate?

@TWood
That kind of end of the tank overflow filtration with a return line is popular here amongst the budget consious hobbyist who keeps fish (there are so few who dares/suceed in keeping planted one). It does minimize stuff visible all over the sides and top also while eliminating the cost of a canister filter. With all increasing chinese pumps from resun, jebo, etc at an unbelievable price, the system gets popular these days.

@Scooley
Yes I love your tank! please experiment with that ADA style. I'm inspired again by your kahuna tank. Too bad the pricing of 19mm glass sets me back to opt for a rimmed 12mm tank instead for my next tank (because I need a large one). But its going to be polished and beveled all around up to the rims and bones.


----------



## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

I would recommend tweaking the return. I have a 1 inch overflow with an oversize Durso standpipe which I would recommend to everyone with an overflow including reefers. Rich is great and goes out of his way to help. My overflow plumbing has ball valves and T's. The outlets 90 degree at the bottom of the sump to minimize turbulence and feed the sponge filters. I had bio balls but they reside in the garage now, would recommend pitching the bio balls, cause more harm than good. Know anybody that needs a few hundred? The sponge filters are branched together and driven by a powerhead kept a couple of inches below the water line. John @ http://www.jehmco.com/ made the sponge filter setup, again someone that went out of his way to help me. I can choke the overflow side with a ball valve but chose to tweak the return instead. The guy that built my tank included a pondmaster 7 pump with the sump. That was way too much flow for my discus, they do not like being thrown around in circles. I opted for a Mag 3 pump which keeps the flow steady. I am constantly tweaking/experimenting with my sump. Next experiment is to Y the return lockline, install 2 diffusers and hook back up the Pondmaster 7 pump. I will also install a ball valve on the return line to choke the flow if needed to keep my discus from being slammed into the tank sides. I would recommend getting as much flow as possible from the overflow and tweak the return using smaller/bigger pump and/or choking the flow. Let me know if you want/need pics.


----------



## medicineman (Sep 28, 2005)

Ah, I see the picture.

1. Get the overflow to flow more/ease the flow by adjusting level, tweaking with the pipe diameter. In this case my next tank would likely to use at least 2" overflow pipe or double 1,5" pipe (which is less preferable for it is messy).
2. Get the return line to pump at a desireable rate. The amount falling from overflow depends on the rate of return. Install a valve to choke (of course using a T for a return and a leak choke to prevent excessive pressure on the pump) or replace pump size as a last resort. Perhaps a 1" pipe will do for this.

Throwing out the bioballs? why? I thought they help contain useful bacteria. Do they block the flow and tend to jam?


----------



## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

medicineman said:


> Throwing out the bioballs? why? I thought they help contain useful bacteria. Do they block the flow and tend to jam?


You do not want a wet/dry element to your sump. Planted tanks do not require artificial bacterial colonies (plants are covered in N-bacteria, and plants also consume ammonium eagerly). Additionally, the added turbulence of a wet/dry system drives off CO2 from your tank. 

I run a sump system as well.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11069&page=7&pp=15


----------



## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

On the topic of sumps:

*Drill a small hole at or just below the water line on the return to break the back syphon. 

*Run the system for a while and then turn it off an wait ~ 15 min. Fill sump to level you are comfortable with. Make mark. Turn system on and run ~15 min. Make mark. This is your "max vol" line.

*Confirm that the pump cannot leave you heaters high and dry.

*Ball valves on the output side are risky. It sounds like the above poster uses 2 overflows but NEVER underestimate the ability of a snail or leaf of just the right size to come along.

*Prefilters: I do not run one on my durso so leaves, food, and fish take Mr. Toads wild ride.

*Bubbles in the overflow syphon can indicate that the flow is too slow. (Indicator of when to clean the prefilter on my old pump)


----------



## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

Two things I assumed medicineman was we were discussing a drilled tank with bulkheads (not a HOB overflow) and you have a basic understanding of overflow/sump precautions.

You got it for the return flow, get the plumbing set then tweak it. If you have a 2" bulkhead check with Rich Durso for the size drainpipe to use, I would guess 2.5" but he is the expert. No need for bio balls in a planted tank, I used them because of my fish load (10 wild discus, 12 wild corydoras, 11 wild plecos/cats, and a dozen snails in a 110 gallon which I do not consider to be heavily planted) but opted to use sponge filters instead to cut down on the turbulence, but main reason was to get more water in the sump. A gallon here, a gallon there, it adds up. If you are going to use a 1" return line, let me know how it works.

Bottom line is, sumps are used in planted tanks. One thing I have learned, every application is different and every hobbyist has different wants/needs; be willing to experiment, I'm glad I did. I learned a tremendous amount of useful information about sumps and sump plumbing from quizzing and looking at the setups of reefers I know. Most SPS reefers are either experts in water/sump filtration/flow or have a lot of money.


----------



## medicineman (Sep 28, 2005)

_Two things I assumed medicineman was we were discussing a drilled tank with bulkheads (not a HOB overflow) and you have a basic understanding of overflow/sump precautions._

Ah at last I can say the term bulkhead overflow! Yes you are precisely right. Sorry for any misunderstanding. Trying to be a good english speaker here (never comparable to native speaker though).

I'm going to order another tank with bulkhead overflow. I'm discussing the issue because I dont want to mess up for drilling the bottom of the tank when I dont know exactly what I'm doing. After seeing results from people and from my very own 260gal tank, I'm convinced that this is the way I should build my next tank. Btw now I'm going to order it slightly longer length and slightly shorter height, L x H x W measuring at 200 x 70 x 80 cm. Using tweezers at my old tank proves how difficult a 80cm height is.


----------



## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

I hear you about tall tanks, a PITA but I think worth it. Are you going to drill the tank yourself? I was going to get a wider tank but did not like the way the stand looked.


----------



## medicineman (Sep 28, 2005)

DiabloCanine said:


> I hear you about tall tanks, a PITA but I think worth it. Are you going to drill the tank yourself? I was going to get a wider tank but did not like the way the stand looked.


A PITA.... LOL :tongue: 

Not only worth it... but really a must have if you can stand it with all the maintenance, cost , etc. Everything grows differently when you have the height to let it shows full size.

My old tank : 180cm long, 80cm high, 80cm thick

My next tank (still on order) : 200 cm long, 70 cm high, 80cm thick. All sides including the rims are polished and beveled. Open top. This one is going to be another of my DIY victim  
I aim for the same thickness because I can get a nice depth effect and a larger area should I decided to try out carpet and field setup.

Nope, I will not drill it by myself. Its going to be a nighmare if I scew up and having a broken tank in the end. I will ask my fabricator to make the holes for me. Now they are fabricating a solid wooden cabinet with some carvings and air vent grill for the tank to sit on. Nice real solid cabinet like the one I have under my old tank, and foreigners (esp westerners) gotta love it with all traditional carvings and profiles.

Anyway, I'm going to let them know where to drill and how big it is. I'm sure they cannot crew up seriously, for they are experienced for over 20 years in handling tanks with all of the decorations.

Deep inside what I want is a much larger open tank (say 500gal+), but the cost of 19mm glass and the fear of running cost and maintaining it prevents me from having one.

They are charging me a decent price at around $ 800 for the tank, cabinet and plumbing. This is not the first time. We have a long history with the workshop from reefer to freshwater, from maintenance to decoration, from moving to re-stocking. Now for the waiting... must be another 2-3 weeks at least before they finish everything.


----------



## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

What kind of fish is going in the tank?


----------



## medicineman (Sep 28, 2005)

Lets see... I have not yet decided.

Perhaps some schooling fish (I dont have em yet in my 260 and 25 gal). Rasboras or rummy nose maybe? I love sumatra tiger barb, but they are just too much for the rest of tank inhabitants. Some neons, cardinals or silvers to light up the jungle.

A pack of janitors. SAE's, corydoras and some albino chinese algae eater to clean up the mess.

Still considering Discus and Angelfish to add for some nice size fish to scare the pack of schooling fish. I heard they school tighther in the presence of bigger fish.

Another pack of red papuan rainbows. I love how red they are. This time I will look for a female or two just to redden up the colours of the males. They have a minor tendency of nipping off plants? never mind that. Just keep a pack of 6 to add a taste of red.

Dont know about shrimps. If I take shrimps then the bigger fish are out from the list.


----------



## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

I have some rummy nose and white clouds in a 37 gallon tank, they school together well, one school high, one school mid-level. I like mystery and nerite snails for cleaners, all the chinese algae eaters I have had get lazy when adults and do not touch algae. Tough getting SAEs here most LFS don't carry them or sell false ones. Tough to buy online because they do not ship well, want you to order hundreds when trying to import. If you go with discus definetely go with wild caughts, corydoras sterbai handle the heat well in a discus tank. Have you ever seen a large tank with 3 or 4 dozen altums in it? AWESOME!!! My wild caught discus act like true cichlids, domestics, while very colorful, are well, just fish to me, I don't care for them anymore after raising wilds. I have a large school of neons in my 46 gallon and wish they were cardinals. I'm getting ready to bust down my 55 and 65 to replant and restock new fish, thinking about endler's in the 55 and koi angels in the 65.


----------



## festus (Jul 11, 2005)

I'm a saltwater/reefkeeper in addition to my planted freshwater community tank.

A sump in reality has nothing to do with filtration. Its simply a reservior of water below the tank. It can be a very handy way to handle maintenance tasks without disturbing the display tank. It can and often is used to move filtration and other mechanical things out of the display tank. One plus is to increase the total volume of water in the system, which increases the room for error.

I will be adding a sump to my 46 Bowfront shortly as soon as I get the aquarium closet I am building in the area behind the wall my tanks are on completed.

Sumps are not needed in a fresh tank IMHO but they aren't wrong either. Don't add one just because you think you might need one.

The only downside to a planted tank that I can see is that CO2 may be diffused back into the air via water turbulence.


----------



## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

What size sump are you putting on the 46 bow? CO2 outgassing is not a problem with sumps if they are setup right.


----------



## festus (Jul 11, 2005)

DiabloCanine said:


> What size sump are you putting on the 46 bow? CO2 outgassing is not a problem with sumps if they are setup right.


Thats TBD but not very big. Probably 10 gallon as I've got 3 of them unused at the moment. If that turns out to be to small I'll snag a 20g. I've got the "fish closet" framed in the garage and we are waiting inspection before I drywall it. At that point my main focus is the reef then the planted. ( I'm upgrading to a 55g sump on the reef and installing a refugium. I'm wanting to automate freshwater topoff on the reef in addition to the dosing automation I recently added. Someday, If I can talk my wife into it, I'll turn the refugium into a planted salt display tank with sea horses roud: ) 

Along with size an important issue is the flow rate. Something gentle. 

I will use a DIY black pvc pipe overflow in the planted tank. In the sump I will use a float switch to automate topoff, most likely from my RO fresh reservoir. I will also perform my water changes from the sump in this closet but may use treated tap for that.


----------



## broodwich (Nov 29, 2005)

I'm a n00b but I am very interested in this topic. I want to setup a new planted tank and I very much like the idea of having a sump to house my unsightly equipment. Does anyone have a diagram of what it would look like for a planted aquarium? I have a tank now (no live plants) that uses an overflow and I like that the only things I see in the tank are the two return water lines. Here is a link to a diagram of my current setup.

Click Here

Crazy I know, but I inherited the tank and this setup has been working for me for about 5 years so I have not changed anything.

In my diagram everything with a green line is PVC and the blue lines are your standard tubing. In order to control the flow of water into my sump "tank" (yes it's really just a 5 gallon bucket). I adjust the manual valve in the PVC piping that is attached to the bulkhead fitting where it exits the tank. I guess this is the ball valve that you have been taking about (like I said, I'm new). If I keep the water level in the bucket above the bottom of the PVC piping things work quite well. That is of course if my Fluval does not get jammed up, but that does not happen very often.

The Fluval contains three types of filter media, activated carbon, ceramic, and foam. As I understand it some of you are not using any chemical, biological or mechanical filtration. Well I guess you are using just foam filters for mechanical filtration. Is that it? You're not using anything else? Or am I missing something?

In other words for my new tank setup, could I replicate the setup in my diagram minus the Fluval and have a successful planted tank? I would of course replace the 5 gallon bucket with a glass fish tank. Or would it be easier to just get a canister filter and be done with it?

I know I am oversimplifying things a bit but I am just trying to get an understanding here as I decide if I want to get a tank with an overflow or one without.

Thanks.


----------



## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

no diagram but here are pics. 30 gallon sump, water level is 25 gallons


----------



## broodwich (Nov 29, 2005)

Okay that helps some.

In the first picture, in the upper left is that PVC pipe the overflow from the tank? Is it running through a check valve there at the top? What does that do? If the check valve is on the overflow how does it prevent a spill in the event of a power outage? In the second picture, I assume that is your pump and it's output is attached to that PVC pumping the water back into the tank. The first valve is used to control the flow of water? The second valve inline is what for drainage?

Thanks.


----------



## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

The top picture is the return and yes that is a check valve. It keeps water from draining back into the sump from the return in the event of a power failure, allows me to keep more water in the sump. The bottom picture is the overflow inlet. I have two ball valves on the line that allows me to drain the sump for water changes. The other piece in that pic is a powered dual sponge filter that was made for me by John at http://www.jehmco.com/ .


----------



## Matak (Aug 10, 2005)

Just a thought, would it help to float a cut-to-size piece of 1" thick styrofoam SM in the sump? My thinking is that it would stop evaporation, stop heat loss and cut down on CO2 dissapation.


----------



## broodwich (Nov 29, 2005)

Oh okay, got it (I think). That black thing at the bottom of the PVC plumbing in the top picture is the pump. Pumping the water back up into the tank through the check valve. The check valve on the return makes much more sense  A check valve on the overflow would either a) do nothing or b) prevent the water from flowing out of the tank. So with the bottom picture being the inlet from the overflow into the sump, do you use the ball valve to control the water flow to keep the water level balanced in the sump/tank? Opening the valve to raise the water level in the sump or closing the valve to lower the water level in the sump.

Sorry, another question, how do you drain the sump with your inline ball valves? Do you hook a garden hose to that brass fitting pointed towards the camera? How does that work?

Finally, is the dual sponge filter your only type of filtration in your tank?


----------



## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

All the ball valves do is facillitate the water changes, no adjustment for sump flow. Overflow volume is dependant on the return pump flow, mine is now at 700gph. For water changes I:
1. Turn the ball valve to the left off
2. Turn the ball valve to the right on.

This stops the flow of water into the sump and out of the tank via the ball valve on the right which has a garden hose connected to the brass connector. The water from the sump is pumped into the tank and out the overflow through the hose which drains the sump. 25 gallon water changes done the easy way! I also vac the sump twice a month to remove the crap that accumulates.

The filtration on the tank is:
1. Plants
2. Powered dual sponge filters
3. Pump sponge prefilter
4. Air driven cannister filled with renew
I also gravel vac twice a month and run a diatom once a week


----------



## broodwich (Nov 29, 2005)

Thank you for your patience and your explanation. I understand the setup now. How big is your sump tank? If there was a power failure some water would drain from the tank back into the sump tank through the return line from your sump pump, is that correct?


----------



## Aqua Dave (Feb 23, 2004)

DiabloCanine's setup is pretty similar to mine. I'm using a wet/dry filter that I just pulled all the bio-balls out of for my sump. Saves some time if you don't feel like building the sump yourself. I'm using flexible plastic tubing for my plumbing lines instead of PVC. I didn't want to deal with gluing everything together and it allows you to change things easier. My sump is only about 6-7 gallons so I'm using an in-line pump in the return instead of putting one in the sump itself. The sump has a bulkhead fitting in the side that I use for the return. I have my CO2 reactor and UV sterilizer plumbed in the return. I have two levels of mechanical filtration. I have a course filter pad to catch the big stuff and then a foam polishing pad to filter out the particles. Seems to work fairly well.

I'm using an All-glass aquarium 150gal reef tank that has dual overflows. The way the overflows are built you don't have to worry about overflowing your sump if the power goes off. Only a couple gallons of water will flow into the sump during a power outage. You can check out their website to see how they build the overflows. I'm sure there are other similar designs around.

Thought I'd just give you some different ideas on how to do things.

David


----------



## broodwich (Nov 29, 2005)

Awesome Aqua Dave! Thanks for your input. Do you have any photos of your setup that you could post? I guess I am just worried about overflow because of the silly bastardized pumbming I have on my current tank. I posted a link to the diagram of my current tank in a previous post above.

Is this your overflow setup in your All-Glass Tank?


----------



## vinnymac (Feb 28, 2005)

I run a 65g planted tank with 29g sump. My 65g tank is an All-Glass with predrilled overflow. I took an old 29g tank and built a few chambers out of plexiglass. I glued in the panels with clear silicone sealant.

I run a homemade wet/dry trickle (drip) system made from two rubbermaid boxes stacked on top of each other with the centers cut out. I took some eggcrate (industrial light covers) and cut them out to form hollow bottom in the trickle trays. The first trick tray contains a foam mat for mechanical filtration of large debris. The second chamber contains a few gallons of bio-balls. I have two heaters in the bottom of the sump's main chamber and I run my old Magnum HOT canister filter with a micro cartridge to maintain good water flow over the heaters and to polish the water before it returns to the display tank.

The main chamber overflows to a secondary chamber with another sponge insert to catch any debris that may have been missed by the magnum filter. Then I have a third chamber with a magdrive pump that sends the water back to the main tank. I use a long spray bar for the return water to reduce surface agitation.

I run pressurized CO2 with a power reactor in the main tank and my CO2 levels are always fine. My plants do great.

Water changes are pretty easy. I just unplug the magdrive pump and siphon out all the water from the sump and a little bit out of the 65g tank. I dose all my ferts and water treatments in the sump and refil with tap water. My tank has been running for over a year without any issues.


Here is what it looks like (ignore the actual layout of the plants...that pic is nearly a year old):


----------



## broodwich (Nov 29, 2005)

More options, thanks Vinny. So I take it the All-Glass tanks are popular? I was looking at their website today and they have some pretty nice stuff.


----------



## festus (Jul 11, 2005)

broodwich said:


> ...So I take it the All-Glass tanks are popular?....


Well they are a good bit better than the all wood ones :icon_bigg 

Seriously its the builtin overflows that really differentiates them from the more standard glass box aquariums.


----------



## broodwich (Nov 29, 2005)

I guess. Especially if you want to see your fish. Now they just need to start making glass aquariums with black backs.


----------



## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

broodwich said:


> Thank you for your patience and your explanation. I understand the setup now. How big is your sump tank? If there was a power failure some water would drain from the tank back into the sump tank through the return line from your sump pump, is that correct?


My sump is a little over 30 gallons, I keep the water level as you see it in the pic which is 25 gallons. When the pump is shut off (power failure or I turn it off) the only water that drains back into the sump is from the overflow, remember the return line has a check valve to prevent siphoning back from the return. I get about 2 gallons of water from the overflow that drains into the sump which leaves me plenty of room to spare.


----------



## dima (Nov 28, 2005)

i just bought a used setup from somebody, its a 75 gallon bow tank with a sump system, it is a pre-drilled tank with 3 holes, two on each corner of the tank to siphon water to the sump and the middle is the return line, the over flow is siphoned by flexible tubing into a t-shaped pvc pipe that branches out into two pipes right in the middle of the sump tank, this doesnt give much room to setup a normal filtration system in there, i did buy the following media : marineland bonded filter pad. for the large dirt particles. a poly filter to get rid of the water change from the fluval peat granular that i bought. bioballs, and fluval bio max to aid in bio filration, any tips or diagrams for how to set up the sump would be a lot of help. the pump that i bought is also messed up to pump the water back in the tank so could you guys reccomend a good pump


----------



## dima (Nov 28, 2005)

another thing, the guy at the lfs showed me a product called carbo plus for co2 in the tank, its timed released co2 instead of pressurized. what do you think is better and more cost effective, keeping in mind that i want to set up a planted discus tank


----------



## medicineman (Sep 28, 2005)

DiabloCanine said:


> My sump is a little over 30 gallons, I keep the water level as you see it in the pic which is 25 gallons. When the pump is shut off (power failure or I turn it off) the only water that drains back into the sump is from the overflow, remember the return line has a check valve to prevent siphoning back from the return. I get about 2 gallons of water from the overflow that drains into the sump which leaves me plenty of room to spare.


One way valve for the return line, now that is a must use for my next tank (and the currect tank).

To reduce any bubbles trapped inside the bottom of overflow drain (and will gas out and create more splashing), should I reduce the diameter from 2" to say 1/2" or 1" just before it reaches the sump? This way water in the drain will get collected at a certain height inside the drain pipe and goes down as a full torrent of water with less bubbles. Or is there any other good way to do this?


----------



## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

If I understand you correctly, you are proposing choking the water inlet (overflow) plumbing. I would caution against this. If your rate of intake water (overflow) is less than the return flow you run a chance of your display tank filling up and overflowing. In other words, the return pump will fill up your display tank faster than the overflow can drain it = Big mess on the floor!


----------



## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

I use sumps on my big planted tanks, none of the tanks are drilled or have the built in overflows however, I would hate to loose real estate to those overflows. I built constant level siphons based on the Durso standpipe and this design. I use one double overflow and one single (both shown in the linked thread) to get the amount of flow to the sump that I want. I use 20 gallon high aquariums and I don't bother with partitions or filtration. I bubble the CO2 into the return pump. I control the level of the water in the tank with the return pump. I love the ability to maintain a constant level of water in the tanks with out worrying about evaporation. Oh I've actually figured out that I get the best draw from an overflow with atleast a 2 inch difference in outlet to tank top.


----------



## medicineman (Sep 28, 2005)

DiabloCanine said:


> If I understand you correctly, you are proposing choking the water inlet (overflow) plumbing. I would caution against this. If your rate of intake water (overflow) is less than the return flow you run a chance of your display tank filling up and overflowing. In other words, the return pump will fill up your display tank faster than the overflow can drain it = Big mess on the floor!


You get the picture all right :icon_bigg 

Yes I'm aware about such problem, esp should any particle went through the pre filter and stuck inside the inlet. Such incident would guarantee that the rate of returning water is higher than the overflowing water.
Flooding is the nightmare stuff. I guess I'll leave the diameter 2" all the way, and outgassing of CO2 from plunging at such height is said to be no real problem since the effect is small. Btw the new plumbing is not made yet. Just brainstorming and day dreaming on the plumbing.


----------



## festus (Jul 11, 2005)

broodwich said:


> ... Now they just need to start making glass aquariums with black backs.


You are aware you can simply paint the back right ?


----------



## Aqua Dave (Feb 23, 2004)

broodwich said:


> Awesome Aqua Dave! Thanks for your input. Do you have any photos of your setup that you could post? I guess I am just worried about overflow because of the silly bastardized pumbming I have on my current tank. I posted a link to the diagram of my current tank in a previous post above.
> 
> Is this your overflow setup in your All-Glass Tank?


Yup. That's the setup. It's a pretty nice setup and has some thought behind it. You can build similar setups on your own, but in my case I'd rather buy something if it already exists. As has been mentioned, one of the big issues with built-in overflows is the realestate they take up in the tank. I have two overflows on my 150 and each one is about 5 gallons inside. You just have to weigh the advantages and disadvantages and decide what you want to do.

I took some pictures when I orignally setup the tank. I'll see if I can dig them up. I must've spent a few hours just staring at the equipment trying to visualize where to place stuff and how to run the plumbing.

David


----------



## broodwich (Nov 29, 2005)

I'm okay the the fact that the overflow takes up real estate in the tank. I would rather look at the black column in the back (or two black columns) than look at all the other junk. I really like the fact that the new overflow designs are incorporating the return lines into the overflow. My tank is many years old and of course does not have that. That is a very nice setup from All-Glass BTW.

I do know that you can paint the back of a glass tank which is one option that I thought about. I also like the idea of using an adhesive vinyl on the back. One thing that I have not seen anyone talk about is using window tinting film on the back but I guess that wouldn't really be opaque even if you got the darkest of tints.

What is a good place to get an All-Glass Aquarium? Is the LFS the best place to start asking for prices?

Thanks.


----------



## dima (Nov 28, 2005)

anyone help me out with my questions?, id rather get advice here then spend money for a guy to set it up for me


----------



## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

dima said:


> anyone help me out with my questions?, id rather get advice here then spend money for a guy to set it up for me


I posted a reply for you at:

http://www.simplydiscus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46248


----------



## dima (Nov 28, 2005)

thanks diablo much appreciated.


----------



## paaschjc (Nov 20, 2005)

HI
I'm in the process of setting up a 240g planted tank and am using a 100g rubbermaid tank as a sump in the basement.
I have two issues to deal with. 
1. How do I reduce the churning of the water as it flows into my pump?
2. Anybody have a link for making a spray bar to go from the return hole at the top of the overflow to the bottom of the tank to reduce the force of the flow blowing around my substrate?

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks
Janina


----------



## vinnymac (Feb 28, 2005)

paaschjc said:


> HI
> I'm in the process of setting up a 240g planted tank and am using a 100g rubbermaid tank as a sump in the basement.
> I have two issues to deal with.
> 1. How do I reduce the churning of the water as it flows into my pump?
> ...



I was trying to make my own spray bar for the return line and discovered it was too much work when you can buy a ready made one from http://www.modularhose.com/

They have spray bar kits and just about every kind of fitting you'll need.

I think the one I bought was $18.


----------



## broodwich (Nov 29, 2005)

I was at the LFS the other day pricing tanks and evaluating the store. I was telling the clerk there about my idea for using a tank with built in overflows and a sump. He told me that was a bad idea because I would be running the risk of having my tank overflow. He said they had a 72 gallon planted tank in the shop and it was trouble for them because plant debris would get caught in the overflow clogging the drain and running the risk of overflowing the tank. I could see where you would have a problem if your overflow drain was clogged and your pump was still pumping, of course all the water would be pumped from the sump into the tank or on to the floor.

So for those of you that have a sump with overflows, do you have any problems with this situation or do you worry that your tank could overflow like this? I was planing on using the durso standpipe (or the AGA look-alike) that is mentioned earlier in this thread. What are your thoughts?

EDIT: I just looked over this thread again and I see that we touched on the issue of overflowing the display tank a little bit but I would like to get some more information or prevention techniques mainly to please my wife. She is thinking about new hardwood floors and is a little nervous about water on the new floors.


----------



## medicineman (Sep 28, 2005)

The best way is using bulkhead pipe as big as you can stand, the bigger the better (and the uglier some people might think - depends on how is your perception and scape). In my 260 gal #1 there are 2 x 1 1/4 inch pipe. In my 260 gal #2 there is a 2+ inch pipe. The trick is adjusting the flow from the tank to the filter bottom as fast as possible (preferably do it free-flow with adjustments to reduce air sucked in). I have had no problem with this kind of setup for years (10+ yrs). The only problem is your filter can get clogged(over a long time if you are very lazy). An easy way is setting a pre filter floss in a mesh tray before your filter chamber, so that large debris will be held there and then you can easily pick that tray for a quick clean. This way your chamber filter will not get clogged easily.

A possible problem is that once in a while you will cut the power to the pump and some water from the tank (depends on how you set it up) might flows back to the filter and if this happens too long or too much (again depends on how you set up) the filter tank may overloads and you get a mess.

A good way of course setting it right with a pre-testing whilst tweaking the filter. An addition of a check valve is a safe way to avoid such problem.


----------



## broodwich (Nov 29, 2005)

So do you have any kind of strainer on your overflow pipe or do you just leave wide open so the debris will end up in your sump, if it did get sucked up into the pipe? What about the strainers that are built-in to the internal overflows is it likely that they would become clogged? I'm talking about the vertical slots as seen in this image...










This happens to be AGA's megaflow setup but all the acrylic tanks I have seen with internal overflows seem to have the notched strainer along the water line.

Would the Durso style pipe be recommended for a planted tank as seen here...










With a strainer on the intake of the durso style pipe as shown in the picture would that be a point for debris to clog the overflow?


----------



## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

broodwich said:


> I would like to get some more information or prevention techniques mainly to please my wife. She is thinking about new hardwood floors and is a little nervous about water on the new floors.


If your wife is going to get her panties in a twist because some water hits the floor you might not want to bother going this route. You will never be able to relax enough to enjoy the tank and the minute you do, there will be a spill. 

One of my tanks had a flow issue once. I got home from a week long trip and thought that the water looked a little high in the tank. :icon_eek: Five seconds later I was unplugging the pump and mopping up about a cup of water as the tank overflowed before my eyes. I still haven't figured out why because I started the pump back up and checked everything and it went right back to normal.  

Do yourself a favor and get a canister filter, and weld the hoses on or use the shut off valves or something. That way the only time there can be a spill is if you are working on the tank.


----------



## Aqua Dave (Feb 23, 2004)

No problems here with debris clogging anything. I have the AGA setup as I previously mentioned. In the AGA setup none of the big debris makes it into the overflow due to the small slats. I guess it's possible that debris could clog all the slats at the water surface on the overflow (two overflows in my case), but I've never had it happen. The AGA overflows have the slats in the middle and at the bottom as well so those would have to be clogged to prevent any water from entering the overflow. I think you'd have to not do any cleaning of debris on your tank for a long time before it completely clogged.

As for water on the floor. I get water on the floor every time I do maintenance. Be it dripping from my hands as I pull them out of the tank or from plant clippings dripping as I pull them out or any number of things. It's usually not much, but water always hits the floor. The tank sits on a hardwood floor and I just mop up the water after I'm done. If I know I'll be doing a major prunning then I have some plastic runway that I put down in front of the tank to keep most of the water off the floor.

David


----------



## broodwich (Nov 29, 2005)

I already told her that there was no way I could guarantee there would never be a spill on the floor. There is just no way you can say that. Right now we have carpet down on the floor but that is on the way out to be replaced by hardwood. I'm trying to convince her that a laminate floor like Pergo is a better way to go. It looks pretty good now, it's cheaper, it does not have to be glued down and it tougher than the engineered hardwoods. We have two kids, a dog and a cat and while it's not a disaster, the floor does see some wear. Anyway that's another issue. She knows that there is a chance for a spill but I think the clerk at the LFS made her worry. It isn't nearly as big of a deal as he made it out to be.

When I clean my current 65 gallon, I put down old towels around the perimeter of the tank to soak up any spills that I make. Thanks Aqua Dave for the points on the AGA, megaflow setup. With two overflows and all the slots in the megaflow design, there would be a lot that would have to clog before the tank would overflow.

I guess if she is still worried, I could setup a float level switch for the pump in the sump. If the water level in the sump fell below a certain level in the sump a float switch could turn off the pump until the water level went back up to a minimum level. If the tank was clogged the water level in the sump would start dropping because it would not be replenished by the overflows. Once the water dropped below the set level the contact could open and shut off the circuit to the sump pump. Humm, as I write this that sounds like it could be problematic to calibrate.


----------



## medicineman (Sep 28, 2005)

I use a DIY strainer from aluminium mesh. As you can see below. Note that there are floating junks stuck on the outer rim. There are still so many ways for water to fall down from the other side and from underneath of that strainer (which will take some time to get clogged)

Like I have said it is important to have the overflow far more free-flowing than the return water, which can be done by selecting the right diameter and pump for your use. If you are going away for a while, a wise thing is cleaning up the top and the filter first before you leave. I have another strainer in form of a filter fiber in a tray at the bottom of the bulkhead for a pre-filter and a quick maintenance.


----------



## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

broodwich said:


> I was at the LFS the other day pricing tanks and evaluating the store. I was telling the clerk there about my idea for using a tank with built in overflows and a sump. He told me that was a bad idea because I would be running the risk of having my tank overflow. He said they had a 72 gallon planted tank in the shop and it was trouble for them because plant debris would get caught in the overflow clogging the drain and running the risk of overflowing the tank. I could see where you would have a problem if your overflow drain was clogged and your pump was still pumping, of course all the water would be pumped from the sump into the tank or on to the floor.
> 
> So for those of you that have a sump with overflows, do you have any problems with this situation or do you worry that your tank could overflow like this? I was planing on using the durso standpipe (or the AGA look-alike) that is mentioned earlier in this thread. What are your thoughts?
> 
> EDIT: I just looked over this thread again and I see that we touched on the issue of overflowing the display tank a little bit but I would like to get some more information or prevention techniques mainly to please my wife. She is thinking about new hardwood floors and is a little nervous about water on the new floors.


IMO, your LFS did not know what they were doing. Water spillage can come from 2 sources:

1. Power or pump failure which causes the sump to overflow; since the pump quits running the overflow drains into the sump and tank water siphons back into the sump through the return. To prevent this install a check valve on the return and fill the tank/sump with the pump off until you reach the water level you want in the sump (draw a reference line on the sump). I was very suprised to see how little water drains back into the sump with the pump turned off using this method.

2. Clogged drain which allows the pump to pump more water back into the tank faster than the overflow can drain it. If you are using a megaflow overflow like in the pic; if all the slots clog, the water will still spill over the top of the overflow box so no problem there. But if your standpipe gets clogged you will have a lot of water on the floor. I do not have a strainer on my durso, no way plant matter will clog it, too much pressure. A large snail or critter on the other hand will clog a standpipe very easily. I built a fence from the top of my overflow box to the top of the tank. This still allows water to spill over the overflow box top if plant matter clogs the slots and prevents any fish/snails from entering the overflow and getting stuck in the standpipe.

Keep in mind that any tank can spill its guts with no warning. Good luck, I love having a sump. I think most people that try it get hooked pretty quick.


----------



## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Don't get me wrong, I love having sumps on my tanks. I just set up a 75 and a 65, both with sumps, so I now have 4 tank with running sumps. 

My potential problem is what DiabloC. described in problem 2. My solution was to create such a large surface area for the intake strainers that it would take a great deal of material to clog them up. The suction through any section of the strainer is so small that it won't catch hold of large leaves, they can't get stuck on the strainer and clog it up alone. 

I can't have problem number 1 with my constant level siphon overflows and water returns being positioned at the water surface. What I do to keep the sump from overflowing is to fill it when the pump has been turned off for a time. This way, the sump starts at the maximum that would drain out when there is a power failure. 

I haven't seen a way yet to avoid both problems at the same time. Any time you are running a volume of water between two open containers that is greater than either container's volume alone there is a chance for spillage.


----------



## broodwich (Nov 29, 2005)

Thanks for the feedback.

P.S. It woudn't be the first time a LFS didn't know what they were doing.


----------

