# Bba (UPDATE)



## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

This tank has become an ongoing problem (headache!) because of reoccurring BBA. It is so ugly. Im thinking it is time to just tear it down and start over. New substrate, most plants tossed and other plants treated with H2O. 



I have read and listened to various opinions on this forum regarding BBA's cause, and still, regardless of whatever steps I take from those recommendations- the BBA continues. 

It has gotten worse of late. The last advice I heeded was that the organics were too high- despite 75% water changes every 3 days. So, in the last 2 weeks, I went to every other day water changes of 75% with gravel cleanings. It looks worse. It has now started to cover the substrate.



Ive been able to do pretty well with my other low-tech tanks- but, this one is a disaster. 


I think Ill just get some inert sand, put in a couple sticks, and call it a defeat.


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Do you know what your nutrient levels are at? How intense is your lighting and what is your photoperiod? Have you stirred up the substrate sending organics into the water?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I fertilize very little- relative to others because its low-tech with low-light plants.. I do the dosing recommended on the back of Seachem bottle for NPK, Iron, Flourish, and use Advance. I also do some dosing with Excel for algae control. But, inconsistently- and obviously, to little benefit.
I use Rootabs which I replace every 4 months. 

There are 2-Current Satellite plus pro on here. The tank is a 60 inch cube -so deep. I leave one on for 6 hours ( the back strip) and the other for 8 hours to allow more time for viewing. 

I vacuum the substrate well. I submerge the head of the python into top layers of substrate routinely to keep these layers clean. 
I also have very good circulation with a Fluvel G6 Filter with two inlets ( 1 pointed at back and to substrate and the other just below water line to increase oxygen saturation. All plants move throughout aquarium.


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> I fertilize very little- relative to others because its low-tech with low-light plants.. I do the dosing recommended on the back of Seachem bottle for NPK, Iron, Flourish, and use Advance. I also do some dosing with Excel for algae control. But, inconsistently- and obviously, to little benefit.
> I use Rootabs which I replace every 4 months.
> 
> There are 2-Current Satellite plus pro on here. The tank is a 60 inch cube -so deep. I leave one on for 6 hours ( the back strip) and the other for 8 hours to allow more time for viewing.
> ...


Nice, I've always wondered about those fancier lookin' Fluval filters. How do you like it?

Would it be possible to get some measurements? The Seachem recommended dosages are pretty conservative, I'm suspecting your plants are reaching a limiting factor on nutrients, allowing algae to take hold.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

varanidguy said:


> Nice, I've always wondered about those fancier lookin' Fluval filters. How do you like it?
> 
> Would it be possible to get some measurements? The Seachem recommended dosages are pretty conservative, I'm suspecting your plants are reaching a limiting factor on nutrients, allowing algae to take hold.


 This fluvel G6 is my favorite filter ever-- 

It has been going strong for many years- at least 6 years without any problems. 



I dont have any testing stuff beyond nitrates, nitrite, ammonia, KH/GH, PH. 

I think your right on that limiting factor. I also think it is lack of balance between this, lighting, and Co2. 

But, this is primarily a discus tank that gets minimum 2 x 75% water changes weekly. I think it is just not a good environment for plant growth and perfect for algae.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Sorry you are dealing with this, it's a bear. I have tinkered around with it but never really could pinpoint a perfect method of eradication. Tried spot treating with Excel, but as you describe -it's often just too "all over the place" for spot treatment. Best luck I had was putting Excel in a spray bottle, draining the tank down to expose it, and spray the Glut right on it and let it sit for a few minutes, then fill back up as usual. This would be especially difficult if growing on the substrate and is an extreme measure for sure, but everything else I tried and it just comes right back. It seems to have certain sets of conditions though. I once moved an old Anubias with BBA all over the roots into a high tech tank and the BBA withered away to nothing. Don't know if CO2 levels can kill it, bright lights or what but it hated that tank. I have found nothing that reliably eats it. 

In your tank photos maybe it's the lighting or a camera trick but yours looks compromised. I've had it lush and ink black to dark gray in color. That looks almost brownish. Maybe the Excel is working?


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> This fluvel G6 is my favorite filter ever--
> 
> It has been going strong for many years- at least 6 years without any problems.
> 
> ...


Good to know! I may try one out in the future, they look pretty cool. lol

Try this, dose your macros on water change day, dose for a TOTAL of 20ish ppm nitrates (say you have 10 ppm after WC, add another 10 or so from dosing) and 2 ppm of phosphate, follow the directions for potassium. If you're doing micros, just follow the directions there as well. See if that helps you.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Sorry you are dealing with this, it's a bear. I have tinkered around with it but never really could pinpoint a perfect method of eradication. Tried spot treating with Excel, but as you describe -it's often just too "all over the place" for spot treatment. Best luck I had was putting Excel in a spray bottle, draining the tank down to expose it, and spray the Glut right on it and let it sit for a few minutes, then fill back up as usual. This would be especially difficult if growing on the substrate and is an extreme measure for sure, but everything else I tried and it just comes right back. It seems to have certain sets of conditions though. I once moved an old Anubias with BBA all over the roots into a high tech tank and the BBA withered away to nothing. Don't know if CO2 levels can kill it, bright lights or what but it hated that tank. I have found nothing that reliably eats it.
> 
> In your tank photos maybe it's the lighting or a camera trick but yours looks compromised. I've had it lush and ink black to dark gray in color. That looks almost brownish. Maybe the Excel is working?


 No, not a trick of camera, it is more brown than grey or black on wood. I hope it is stressed!

I was okay with the BBA until it started getting on substrate- then it was like- no way!


I suppose I can give this one last try- like you suggest with the Excel.

Bump:


varanidguy said:


> Good to know! I may try one out in the future, they look pretty cool. lol
> 
> Try this, dose your macros on water change day, dose for a TOTAL of 20ish ppm nitrates (say you have 10 ppm after WC, add another 10 or so from dosing) and 2 ppm of phosphate, follow the directions for potassium. If you're doing micros, just follow the directions there as well. See if that helps you.


 I just got ( a few days ago) the Thrive All In One liquid ferts to start weaning myself out of the 6 liquid bottle designer ferts. Stupid it has taken me so long. After a while maybe Ill feel confident enough to go dry and mix myself- I am wary because of my sensitive fish. 

I think the Thrive will be setting me at a higher nitrate concentration than the Seachem line was. Ill do some testing to see where Im falling. . 



Thanks for some tips, the fish could care less but Im really getting so frustrated with this tank.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

I’m seeing large amounts of detritus still in the substrate bed. Circled in red.










Can you take a well illuminated pic of side of substrate bed?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Excel and Gluteraldehyde works really well on BBA..
Just need to find the magic dose..

note Vals are susceptible but most find "acclimating" them to glut works..
Discus and shrimp may have issues.

*1/2 ml/gallon works pretty well for me* NOTE CORRECTION
If you have sensitive plants or shrimp.. doing a low dose every 2 days and gradually upping the level 'should" work..
NORMAL dosing as per bottle of Excel is pointless .

do a google search to see what others do..


Oh and one doesn't need to do it daily or for long BUT you still need to find a "cure"...

I've seen worse BBA and more on plants than you have.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

@jeffkrol do you agree that it looks like the glut is working? I think the BBA looks to be struggling in those pics already. Wish I could find old photos of how mine looked last outbreak I had, but it had a ton more pigment and for lack of a better word "firm" growth. That stuff looks droopy and brown, wonder if she isn't making some headway already.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> @*jeffkrol* do you agree that it looks like the glut is working? I think the BBA looks to be struggling in those pics already. Wish I could find old photos of how mine looked last outbreak I had, but it had a ton more pigment and for lack of a better word "firm" growth. That stuff looks droopy and brown, wonder if she isn't making some headway already.



Actually w/ the correct dose it goes grey in a few days...
direct answer.. looks pretty "healthy" to me atm..doesn't mean it's not dying.


I need to make a BIG correction to my first post...


1/2mL/ gallon some do and quite successfully dose 1 and greater ml/galllon though my "sweet spot" was 1/2mL gallon


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> @jeffkrol do you agree that it looks like the glut is working? I think the BBA looks to be struggling in those pics already. Wish I could find old photos of how mine looked last outbreak I had, but it had a ton more pigment and for lack of a better word "firm" growth. That stuff looks droopy and brown, wonder if she isn't making some headway already.


I agree that the condition of the BBA on the wood is weakened. I once had such strong jet black BBA that I took down the whole tank. Let me tell you, yours looks like it's in bad shape. Dont give up 🙂 we all struggle at some point, if nothing else maybe try to allow this to happen and try to slowly tweak things that could be causing the algae. The most annoying part about taking a tank down after an algae infestation is the fear it could happen again. 

Try to find the root cause and take this as a learning curve 🙂


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Hey @Discusluv

As a recipient of your good advice since I've been here I'd like to share my own history with this unsightly and stubborn algae and how I eradicated it completely. There are many theories as to what causes BBA. For me it was inconsistencies in CO2. I suspect that the Lemon tetras are the unwitting cause, the levels of CO2 they create differs during the day (especially if they sparring and/or spawning mode) and night. I had thick "carpets of this BBA and it attached itself everywhere. 

My solution was DIY co2 and at a later date pressurized CO2. BBA in my experience can't stand a consistent and stable level of CO2. Once introduced it took several days for the bba to go from Black/brown, to red, to white and then die. The bigger "carpets" quickly turned pale and then quite literally, floated to the surface for removal by hand. 

Obviously pressurized or even DIY CO2 might not be for you. The former can be pricey and the latter inconsistent without the right mix but they can be fed to every aquarium viaco2 tubing splitters.

NOTE: I had a DIY CO2 recipe that used molasses and wine yeast. It created 1bps for 6 days before needing to be renewed.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

After sleeping on it decided to just take out substrate and start over. Ordered 2 - 20lb bags of Caribsea instant aquarium sand in Sunset Gold. My favorite sand. 

I will toss the worst of the BBA ridden plants and treat the others with? Excel or H202? 
The Wood? Should I just toss it? Or can I actually clean it so the BBA doesnt come back? 
Ill clean all inside tank well with H202? 

This is a big deal, gutting the tank, because of the sensitive fish in here, but I cant stand this ugly stuff anymore in here. It will ultimately put me through a mini-cycle ( with discus) but, will be fine with daily water changes. Its more stressful on me than the fish. 

I am hoping this will restore some semblance of balance to this tank.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

RollaPrime said:


> … There are many theories as to what causes BBA. For me it was inconsistencies in CO2. … I had thick "carpets of this BBA and it attached itself everywhere.
> 
> My solution was DIY co2 and at a later date pressurized CO2. BBA in my experience can't stand a consistent and stable level of CO2. Once introduced it took several days for the bba to go from Black/brown, to red, to white and then die. The bigger "carpets" quickly turned pale and then quite literally, floated to the surface for removal by hand.


 Do you think it would work without plants? 


Discusluv said:


> After sleeping on it decided to just take out substrate and start over.


 I was going to suggest that because the present substrate is too coarse and holds too much detritus. Also you need Ramshorn snails to keep surfaces clean so plants can breathe and algae has no place to grow.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Edward said:


> Do you think it would work without plants?
> I was going to suggest that because the present substrate is too coarse and holds too much detritus. Also you need Ramshorn snails to keep surfaces clean so plants can breathe and algae has no place to grow.


 No snails in my future- the disgust level too high in that regard with this girl. 

But, yeah, I think this is the right decision.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Spray the wood, plants, anything you want to keep with glut while out of the water. I really think that'll get you out of the woods. I wouldn't destroy perfectly good driftwood or rocks, personally. Good luck and keep us posted!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Spray the wood, plants, anything you want to keep with glut while out of the water. I really think that'll get you out of the woods. I wouldn't destroy perfectly good driftwood or rocks, personally. Good luck and keep us posted!


Okay! Would soaking wood in glut, like for 1/2 hour be enough? Or, should I soak it in glut and then let the wood air dry to make sure all spores die before putting back into aquarium?


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Oh goodness, not nearly that much or that long is called for! Spray it down, wait 5 minutes, maybe 15 if really worried -then rinse. I killed what looked like a 5 gallon bucket's worth in a 125 once upon a time and probably didn't use 8 ounces. A little bit goes a long way. If you're a few days off before breaking the tank down, maybe test a rock tonight and see to be sure. But I'd err on the side of caution and it is really powerful stuff at full strength. The BBA is going to die, I feel certain. Also, use a respirator and open doors and windows. Fumes are nasty.


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> No snails in my future- the disgust level too high in that regard with this girl.
> 
> But, yeah, I think this is the right decision.




What about an army of amano shrimp?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

varanidguy said:


> What about an army of amano shrimp?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


yes! :smile2:


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Took out all the wood in aquarium and sprayed well with the Excel. 
Now is sitting out in sun. I will rinse off later tonight. 
If that doesn't kill the darn stuff I dont know what will. It stunk like it would kill something- and I was outside and down-wind.


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## Leeatl (Aug 8, 2015)

I wish you luck , but I think the BBA will come back . You have to get a tank balanced to stop it , and even then it may pop up at times . I know you are not a novice , but it seems you are when it comes to BBA . I have had better success with H2O2 than Excel with spot treating in tank . And peroxide is less harmful than Excel , just turns to water and oxygen after a while . I will say if anything will kill it for good what you have done should...


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

It's been 30 minutes, I'd wager my favorite shrimp that it's deader than fried chicken at this point. If you rinse a piece of wood and put it back in tonight, I'll be stunned if any is living in the morning.



Leeatl said:


> I wish you luck , but I think the BBA will come back . You have to get a tank balanced to stop it , and even then it may pop up at times . I know you are not a novice , but it seems you are when it comes to BBA . I have had better success with H2O2 than Excel with spot treating in tank . And peroxide is less harmful than Excel , just turns to water and oxygen after a while . I will say if anything will kill it for good what you have done should...


Didn't see your post when I responded. While I agree that BBA will come back if conditions are right and one cell of it survives this, an excel spray out of water does nuke the stuff. I couldn't *move* it to my tanks with injected CO2, but feel there has to be more to it than that. And when I've killed it off in tanks, I've had pretty good luck with it not recurring. Perhaps should count myself lucky, just relaying my own battles with it.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Leeatl said:


> I wish you luck , but I think the BBA will come back . You have to get a tank balanced to stop it , and even then it may pop up at times . I know you are not a novice , but it seems you are when it comes to BBA . I have had better success with H2O2 than Excel with spot treating in tank . And peroxide is less harmful than Excel , just turns to water and oxygen after a while . I will say if anything will kill it for good what you have done should...


 Yeah, am a definite BBA novice. 'Tis true.
But, appears like you cant get a half dozen experts on it in a room together without coming up with at least a few different answers. Those experts leave all of us novice's with a "spinning head". 

But, we still come back and ask them. 



So, Im putting in a little bit of each that I hear here:


To much detritus in sand- _Ill change it out. _

Need more nutrients in water column. _Ill try adding more. _

Turn down photo-period a bit._ Ill do that. _

Clean as much as you can off plants, substrate, hardscape_- check. _


The only thing that is missing is balancing of Co2. Now, my very uneducated guess is that this is my biggest problem. But, not going to go there-- so, your right--- this may just be all for naught.


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## Leeatl (Aug 8, 2015)

Didn't see your post when I responded. While I agree that BBA will come back if conditions are right and one cell of it survives this, an excel spray out of water does nuke the stuff. I couldn't *move* it to my tanks with injected CO2, but feel there has to be more to it than that. And when I've killed it off in tanks, I've had pretty good luck with it not recurring. Perhaps should count myself lucky, just relaying my own battles with it.[/QUOTE]

I appreciate your comment , and I don't disagree that BBA will be more than dead on the wood she took outside and dosed with Excel and let dry in the sun , it is the BBA still in the tank on substrate , plants , whatever that will come back with a vengeance if the original cause is not addressed . If you have had such success battling BBA then please tell us how . I for one would like to know as I fight it off and on all the time .

Bump:


Discusluv said:


> Yeah, am a definite BBA novice. 'Tis true.
> But, appears like you cant get a half dozen experts on it in a room together without coming up with at least a few different answers. Those experts leave all of us novice's with a "spinning head".
> 
> But, we still come back and ask them.
> ...


Well can you think of any reason you haven't had BBA before ? That would help you and the rest of us . You keep the hardest of all fish so I know you are an experienced keeper . BBA is the bane of keeping aquariums so anything we can find to help get rid of it is a plus to us all .


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Leeatl said:


> I appreciate your comment , and I don't disagree that BBA will be more than dead on the wood she took outside and dosed with Excel and let dry in the sun , it is the BBA still in the tank on substrate , plants , whatever that will come back with a vengeance if the original cause is not addressed . If you have had such success battling BBA then please tell us how . I for one would like to know as I fight it off and on all the time .


I have no definitive answer obviously, or these threads would be short! I can say that it simply would not even grow in my high tech tanks. You could move anything getting covered up with it in those and the BBA would die and they would "heal." I do suspect low CO2 is a factor. Even running passive as I do these days (just a vessel held on the tank that I fill up with CO2 from a tank when empty) it doesn't show up. I had it more in my African cichlid tanks than any other -especially a 125 with substrate and rocks high in CACO3. If pulled out of the water and sprayed direct with Excel, it dies. I had dramatically better luck with this than peroxide, which if you've read my posts on glut, you know I'd prefer to use. I imagine there are spores/cells of the stuff in water as well as small amounts we don't see that it grows back from when we get re-occurrences . Light, photoperiod, basic testable nutrients, water flow doesn't seem to impact it. It's either there or it isn't and it has the needed environment or doesn't. But when I've killed it all, I've had the same tank go for years without a recurrence. 

Most of my tanks (knock on wood) are free of it at the moment. I have a little in one, but for reasons beyond my understanding for years now it's just had a few tufts on wood and old growth. Having talked like I know all about it is sure to make it take over any time now though!


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

Amy, what's the condition of the wood and how long has it been in water? Is it firm, hard to the touch, or getting a little soft, somewhat pliable?


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## Leeatl (Aug 8, 2015)

@ BlueRidgeReef I understand completely . There are so many threads on so many forums about BBA and none have a definitive answer . There is one fact that I have mentioned before and that is when I had tanks years ago with no live plants , just plastic , I never had BBA . I never knew what BBA was until I started using live plants . I have no idea why but I wished I did...lol


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Ken Keating1 said:


> Amy, what's the condition of the wood and how long has it been in water? Is it firm, hard to the touch, or getting a little soft, somewhat pliable?


Hmm- Ill take a look at it closer. It is a mixture of woods. Spiderwood and Hornwood. The spiderwood is probably 3 years old, the Hornwood appx a year.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> Hmm- Ill take a look at it closer. It is a mixture of woods. Spiderwood and Hornwood. The spiderwood is probably 3 years old, the Hornwood appx a year.


 The hornwood is still hard. The spiderwood, if you take a thumbnail to it, is soft and leaves a residue under nail. 

The softer the wood the easier for the BBA to take a foothold? Or is it just the wood itself, the decomposition into water column that is the contributing factor?


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> The hornwood is still hard. The spiderwood, if you take a thumbnail to it, is soft and leaves a residue under nail.
> 
> The softer the wood the easier for the BBA to take a foothold? Or is it just the wood itself, the decomposition into water column that is the contributing factor?


BBA can attach to very hard surfaces, glass included, so getting a foothold is not the issue. As time goes on my tank is getting more BBA. Last year I had none, but this year I'm seeing more, yet nothing has really changed regarding dosing and maintenance. But I noticed the wood is getting softer, much softer, which I believe it's starting to decompose so i think it's releasing organics into the water which is generating the BBA. The wood will be coming out soon, but I haven't had the time to find a replacement. This is my speculation. Unfortunately with BBA no one knows the causes or has a cure all treatment, so it's a trial and error to try to eliminate it. I'd remove the spiderwood and see what happens.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Nobody runs a perfectly clean tank, organics are present, in non CO2 tanks like yours you may have to keep the light period short(try 4 hours) and low <50par at substrate).

I think you have already enumerated the potential fixes that could help, now its a matter of how much weight and how drastic you make each change.

Any hardscape covered in BBA can be pulled out of the tank, mechanically remove as much BBA as possible, and then brus with Excel/Glut, plants too but it might melt them, the brushing will work, and prevent it from returning. It can be done in tank(lower water level so the hardscape is in air) but concentrated Excel/Peroxide is toxic and might bother your fish.

You could also try the Excel/Peroxide localized area method(enclose an area and syringe in concentrated peroxide or excel then circulate with airstone) (@Deanna method for groups of plants) but if it were me I'd just pull them out, brush them and keep them in a bucket in water for a day or two and then return them to the tank. 

The debates on what causes it or removes it aren't really helpful, mechanical removal, brushing excel/glut remove/kill it, then keeping up with water changes and lowering light and, increasing healthy plant mass keep it controlled.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

cl3537 said:


> Nobody runs a perfectly clean tank, organics are present, in non CO2 tanks like yours you may have to keep the light period short(try 4 hours) and low <50par at substrate).
> 
> I think you have already enumerated the potential fixes that could help, now its a matter of how much weight and how drastic you make each change.
> 
> ...


 Thanks- all this makes very good sense. looks like I will need to lower my photo-period even more. 

After spraying the wood with Excel yesterday, I took out all the plants. The crypt spiralis was the most severely effected by BBA so threw it out. All the crypts, a lily, java ferns, I took off leaves with any visual signs of BBa and sprayed all others with Excel outside of water and then dropped into my 30 gallon breeder. The plants look fine, 

not stressed. 

The airlines, air-stones, heater, inlet, outlets, -- all taken over with BBA, I took out and replaced or sanitized. Writing this, I just remembered- order a new pre-filter sponge. 



In couple days when sand comes, Ill take all fish out and swap out substrate. 

The filter though, wont it harbor spores? I really dont feel like doing a fish-in cycle with discus right now; but, I suppose I could if need be.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Though not an answer it gives a lot of details...
https://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/algae/87902-cause-solution-bba.html

My take on it after a few years (yes years on and off)

Waste organics.. be it dead/dying plants or in this case wood.. and concurrent local release of ammonia..

A couple of this "I" witnessed..
Tuft BBA growing VERY well on spray bar of filter..
They loved it.

More dead leaves more BBA..sort of starts a feedback loop type thing.

CO2 fluctuations (not % if steady) a possibility more on the line of effecting growing plants.. see above sentence. 

Adding aeration...one I wish I would have tried on the 55 b4 breaking it down (due to mechanical failure not bba) 
Of course from the above link I posted speculation is O2 helps eliminate organics. Can see this working.. to a point..


As to different cures/different tanks.. Certainly not unusual since each is different..


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Though not an answer it gives a lot of details...
> https://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/algae/87902-cause-solution-bba.html
> 
> My take on it after a few years (yes years on and off)
> ...


 Thanks for the link Jeff. This will help. 

Ill keep an eye out for my wood in future. The spiderwood will not be going back in- the Hornwood is still pretty stable though, so it will ---and my Blue phantom Pleco needs it for security. .


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> The filter though, wont it harbor spores? I really dont feel like doing a fish-in cycle with discus right now; but, I suppose I could if need be.


Not sure about that, with no light it can't sustain growth in there IMO.
But it would be good idea to rinse the filter media and sponges repeatedly with clean tank water.

You may also consider using Purigen in the filter to suck up Organics as well.


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## Leeatl (Aug 8, 2015)

I think that only by debate and sharing our experiences with this scourge will we ever be able to if not defeat , at least control it . We all know that Excel/H2O2 will kill it , but why does it exist and how do we make our tanks an unfriendly environment for it ?


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Discusluv said:


> I have read and listened to various opinions on this forum regarding BBA's cause, and still, regardless of whatever steps I take from those recommendations- the BBA continues.
> 
> It has gotten worse of late. The last advice I heeded was that the organics were too high- despite 75% water changes every 3 days. So, in the last 2 weeks, I went to every other day water changes of 75% with gravel cleanings. It looks worse. It has now started to cover the substrate.


 Water changes don’t hurt BBA, it rather supports it. What really damages BBA is well filtered water by healthy plants.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Edward said:


> Water changes don’t hurt BBA, it rather supports it. What really damages BBA is well filtered water by healthy plants.


I'll ignore the water change comment for now, but what do plants take up quicker/first Ammonium or Nitrate?


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

@Edward @Asteroid 

Alleochemicals produced by plants, their concentrations and ability to inhibit algae(and same species growth) is not a well understood, nor is it readily applied to aquariums because we do not study our tanks at the bacterial and microscopic level. The mechanism by which healthy plant mass inhibits algae, the causation is not known but the correlation clearly is well known.

Concentration of Alleochemicals and BB being reduced by water changes either too large or too frequent is not something that has been proven or studied much in a robust way. Stressing plants by changing nutrient concentrations too abruptly (like 50% water changes) is also something not studied or well proven but in general this notion is supported by many aquarists.

@Edward is not alone, there are many experienced Aquarists who don't advise changing more than WC more than 25-30% at a time due to potential loss of Bacteria or for reasons they can't explain except it is preferable for their plants and equilibrium to keep to a smaller water change schedule and dose more lean. My tank has found a nice equilibrium where I don't want to dose too much (I am significantly leaner than PPS-PRO) nor let things bottom out with large water changes. 

The correlation between TOCs and lowering them by water changes, and that cleaning up dirty tanks and removing organics does aid in reducing algae is more readily adopted.

The two ideas are independant of each other(and somewhat contradictory), so that vague general advice falls apart and leads to debates, that is why I prefer to look at specific cases.

When someone has BBA more often than not it is due to poor maintenance practices, too much light and/or organics, the common and most effective way to get rid of it involves manual removal, water changes, and then reduction in light as prevention. Once unhealthy plant matter is present, there will be an increase in organics the only prudent way forward is removal by mechanical means, primarily pruning, dipping, and frequent water changes.

However if you are setting up a hardscape focussed tank, low tech, or many other types with lean fertilizer regimes and less frequent water changes it is often not beneficial to change too much water.

There is merit in both positions but not if taken out of context.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Asteroid said:


> what do plants take up quicker/first Ammonium or Nitrate?



Ammonium..Almost all plants prefer it first over Nitrates..Takes less internal energy to use it..as to my understanding of it.
though any simple question usually has a complicated answer.. like thus:




> First of all, we should distinguish clearly between
> 1. Preferred for actual uptake by the plant at the root surface
> 2. Preferred for growth and yield formation
> 3. Preferred by the agronomist / farmer (crops don’t think about costs)
> Add 1: Almost all plants take up ammonium more rapidly when both forms are available at the root surface (hydroponics), and this applies even more so to conventional, standard crops. A recent example https://www.researchgate.net/public...nium_on_the_Total_Nitrogen_Nutrition_of_Maize. In this regard, I don’t agree with A K Singh. Crops like blueberries (comment by G Agegnehu) and tea (https://www.researchgate.net/public...trogen_Uptake_of_Tea_Camellia_sinensis_Plants) are well adapted to acidic soil conditions and show good uptake of and growth with ammonium. At the electrophysiological level the preferential uptake of ammonium is explained by the fact that nitrate uptake is upward the electrical gradient, requiring either direct ATP input or proton cotransport mechanisms. This makes the nitrate uptake process inefficient, in addition to the fact that the negatively charged functional groups in the cell wall repel nitrate, while they attract and concentration ammonium near the root cell membrane, the first metabolic barrier for uptake. The last comments, however, apply to anions vs cations in general and are not specific to N forms.



https://www.researchgate.net/post/Why_nitrate_is_considered_to_be_the_best_form_of_nirogen_for_plant


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

I recall reading in a thread somewhere on here when I was doing battle with various kinds of algae about a genius solution someone devised to basically put a bell jar type contraption over an affected plant, spot treat it with either glut or H2O2 without nuking the surround plants or livestock. 

Maybe someone remembers this & where it was? Didn't bookmark it, as BBA is the one algae that hasn't taken over my tank--thus far. Have a little on some damaged leaf edges, but that's it so far--knock wood.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I really dont take seriously anyone that throws a simplistic, uncontextualized reason for BBA at me. 

I do _not think_ it is only due to the _lack of maintenance_ in a tank. So many people say that as if it was the "cause and cure".
I have beautiful, full grown discus in this tank ( did have Altum Angels). My fish dont just survive- they thrive. I do minimum 2-75% water changes weekly. in

IN past 2 weeks Ive been doing 3 x 75% water changes in attempt to eliminate the ammonia released by my fish before turned to nitrates. It has become worse- spreading to top of gravel. 

Nor do I believe its all due to high light. 

I do believe these both can be factors. 

I took all the substrate out yesterday. There was some deitrus buildup, but for a tank that has had the same substrate for several years it was minimal. No smell beyond that earthiness see in a healthy, thriving aquarium.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

cl3537 said:


> @Edward @Asteroid
> When someone has BBA more often than not it is due to poor maintenance practices, too much light and/or organics, the common and most effective way to get rid of it involves manual removal, water changes, and then reduction in light as prevention. Once unhealthy plant matter is present, there will be an increase in organics the only prudent way forward is removal by mechanical means, primarily pruning, dipping, and frequent water changes.


I'll agree here. In any given tank it can be several of these things or one of them that breaks the threshold for that setup and BBA is developed from the spores that exist. 



cl3537 said:


> However if you are setting up a hardscape focussed tank, low tech, or many other types with lean fertilizer regimes and less frequent water changes it is often not beneficial to change too much water.


Not here, your basing this on lean dosing so you don't run out of something not based on algae control. Let's assume all necessary ferts are available even with large WCs.

Bump:


jeffkrol said:


> Ammonium..Almost all plants prefer it first over Nitrates..Takes less internal energy to use it..as to my understanding of it.
> though any simple question usually has a complicated answer.. like thus:


Exactly,

Interesting graph from d. walsted study

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/393c/b31f936ea2c9d501eb99fa9faec39c970726.pdf










And what do algae spores eat?


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## Leeatl (Aug 8, 2015)

My god , if I have to get a PHD in algae chemistry to try and keep BBA and others in check then I will just sell my tanks and take up photography ...lol I am on top of my tank maintenance , feed properly , and overfilter and I still get BBA , so In my case it is not poor practices . I don't think it is water change volume either . I am convinced it has something to do with live plants . As I have said when I had tanks in the past with just plastic plants I didn't know what BBA was .


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Leeatl said:


> ... As I have said when I had tanks in the past with just plastic plants I didn't know what BBA was .


You probably had much dimmer lighting. Go into an old LFS, even the bigbox and look at some of their tanks. The plastic plants, decor, filters are usually covered in BBA. That's how they are near me anyway. Healthy plants will only help, unhealthy plants are organic traps.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

I have two questions @ Asteroid, have you tried growing BBA on purpose or experiments to eradicate it?


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Think @Edward is only one who gets it.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

DaveKS said:


> Think @*Edward* is only one who gets it.


 I dont get it. 

Memes have never really done it for me, though.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

I cannot say I'm battling BBA, it is rather contained to three locations.
All plants are clean and any that breaks off the spraybar falls to the bottom and seems to disappear.

1. Perimeter of all holes on the spraybar.
Remove and clean this once per month.

2. Heater is totally engulfed, over 1/2" thick.
Swap heaters every 3 months.

3. Poret foam corner filter, small tufts in the top 3"
Swap with a sterilized piece every 2 months or so.

My LFS has very low light tanks laden with it.
Hardscape, plastic plants, and foam on air filters are covered.
The LFS changes a lot of water weekly in all tanks.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

DaveKS said:


> Think @Edward is only one who gets it.


Then I guess @Edward could solve OPs BBA problem. Sounds like no more water changes for those discus and lots of plants. May the force be with them.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Edward said:


> Water changes don’t hurt BBA, it rather supports it. What really damages BBA is well filtered water by healthy plants.


 Or no plants at all. 

I didnt have BBA in any of my tanks for decades until I put plants in my tanks. Are the introduction of plants what opens the door to BBA?
No- that would be ludicrous wouldn't it. 

But, to me, it is just as ludicrous to say it is "well-filtered water by healthy plants" that damages/is inhospitable to BBA.



Obviously this means something to you as a very basic premise. To me, it just sounds as inaccessible and incomprehensible ( as in: in helping me solve this issue) as its "all light" or "all organics" build-up in substrate.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Edward said:


> I have two questions @ Asteroid, have you tried growing BBA on purpose or experiments to eradicate it?


I've done enough tanks now when BBA shows a tuff here or there I know how to stop it. In these tanks I can throw in a BBA covered rock/wood from a neglected grow-out tank and it just dies out. I agree about the plants, but it's not a universal fix since some tanks are very lean plant wise and some tanks don't have any plants and get BBA, so you can't just throw in plants and say problem solved. You need to get to the root of it. 

The real key though for me is preventive not reactive. It's to make sure the spores stay spores.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Let’s face it, nobody knows how to deal with BBA. You can be doing 100% water changes seven times a week and it is not going to kill it.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Edward said:


> Let’s face it, nobody knows how to deal with BBA. You can be doing 100% water changes seven times a week and it is not going to kill it.


 True enough.


I can say this. 

My tank is gutted and clean as a whistle: no plants, no substrate, not a trace of algae on glass, heater, inlet.
But, my fish are hovering in corners- nervous and stressed. 

Go figure.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Edward said:


> Let’s face it, nobody knows how to deal with BBA. You can be doing 100% water changes seven times a week and it is not going to kill it.


No, not true. You don't need to identify the exact reason you have BBA. That's very hard to do with anyone's tank. One tank you might need to increase water changes, another reduce organics, increase uptake, use organic removal media. 

Don't try to hit a bullseye. I know that might be too unscientific for some, but that's your best chance of getting rid of it.

Go back to basics. The easiest tank to keep clean is one with lots of fast growing plants and low livestock. And the hardest is lots of waste producing livestock and very few plants. Why? 

The plants can process the ammonium much quicker than a weekly or semi-weekly even daily water change. They can process the waste quicker than a filter. When waste goes into the filter, it's still part of the system and it's bi-products are still part of the system until they're removed. So even if your changing your filter every week it's still part of the system for that time. Continuous processing by healthy plants will eliminate it much quicker.

Some tanks have a very difficult set of parameters. Take Subject A (OPs tank) It has heavy waste producing fish, low and slow plant mass, wood up in the water column near the light source. It's a hot bed for BBA in spite of the water changes and filter cleaning.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Asteroid said:


> No, not true. You don't need to identify the exact reason you have BBA. That's very hard to do with anyone's tank. One tank you might need to increase water changes, another reduce organics, increase uptake, use organic removal media.
> 
> Don't try to hit a bullseye. I know that might be too unscientific for some, but that's your best chance of getting rid of it.
> 
> ...



I'm going to second this and add a bit..
Contrary to many opinions the worst thing to do is to start to starve your plants of light/CO2/nutrients (short of a blackout)..


Makes a bad situation worse.. 

CATCH though is if too infested it can get worse before getting better..


Regardless of how one does it, you have super fast growing healthy plants you have little BBA.
What you may be left with, like w/Maryland Guppy, is restricted to hardscape and inerts..


BBA thrives on "intermediate" leaves.. i.e not the newest or really dead (at least for me) but the middle ones that may be leaking organics/ammonia due to cell dying/decay..


consistent "adequate" light (for the species), consistent CO2, stable nutrients and the problem is gone or mitigated.. 

In my limited experience never known a tank that can't outgrow BBA..


Leaving BBA covered plant leaves in the tank just adds to the "organics" issue..


Took me over 6 months to outgrow BBA and did need glut help but it's not magic..


One small caveat.. if you are getting high (doesn't take much) ambient light this is enough to throw off "consistent" light
or us in the northern hemisphere..


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I think the most prudent thing would be to take these lights off, put my wood back in, and leave plants out. 
Back to no BBA.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Not an expert and not one to know the science behind the existence and consistency of CO2 in water. However, I do know that a water change will increase the CO2 levels in a low tech (non injected aquarium), so can I pose a question? Which is the greater culprit here, the organics we are trying to remove with a water change, or the constant fluctuations of co2 caused by changing the water?
I found myself asking these questions just a few days ago when reading more about the generic approach to low tech tanks. 
Honestly, I agree that healthy plant mass and low organics will help, but even in a thriving tank BBA can still exist. My tank, not a good example of amazing husbandry, is the healthiest and happiest it has ever been...only now has BBA made an appearance. I feel that half of what we sometimes to do fix our algae issues, can just exacerbate the issue...but this is purely conjecture. @Discusluv honestly hope you can beat this stuff. I feel it is the bane of the planted tank, caused the destruction of 2 of my previous tanks.


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

Bba is a big mystery...I wont take any sides. I can say from my own experience. Just because I once had what I called my magic tank. That was until my kids started feeding it. My what i considered was my magic tank. I really never changed the water only topped it off. There was zero bba, I actually took plants which had bba from my other tank and the bba would go away on it's own. I never dosed ferts and it had any where from 10-12+ photoperiod. The other tank which had co2, med/high light and ferts would occasionally get bba if I lacked maintenance. Once I upped the maintenance the bba would go away. So bba is still a mysterious algae in my case. How many licks will it take to get to the middle of a tootsie pop??????


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## straha20 (Sep 1, 2016)

Unfortunately, I don't have any before shots from two years ago, but here is a current shot of one of my tanks.










The tank was in such bad shape, that most of the water's surface was covered with BBA, all intermingled with the Java Fern leaves. The side would overgrow with green algae over night. My wife finally got to the point where she started tearing the tank down one night. That is when I finally decided to get serious about about tackling the BBA, and cleaning the tank. Mind you, the tank was so bad, you could not really see much of anything in it at all. I wish I had pictures because words don't do it justice. Just trust me that it was ten time worse than your tank.

Granted, and this is big for you...I did not have any sensitive fish in there, just some guppies and a 3" Flash Pleco, which made it a bit easier to tackle, but I started by cleaning all the glass, I pulled all the plants and hardscape. Scrubbed down the hardscape, trimmed my Java Fern to the bare rhizome. Vacuumed the two year old ADA Amazonia substrate. It took a bit of work, but not nearly as much as I thought it would. Maybe two or three hours? 

Once I had things fairly clean, I added some new plants, three nerite snails, and I went back to the basics of balanced and CONSISTENT light, ferts, and co2, especially the co2. I actually sat down and calculated EI dosing, co2 levels, and lighting period. Actually, with my co2 and EI set appropriate for my plant stock, the only thing needing dialed in was my lighting. 

That tank shot above, over two years since my BBA issue I do have to prune regularly, but beyond that, I have only done topoffs of about a gallon a week, never vacuumed, only have to remove an occasional bit of green spot algae from the glass. My params have been rock solid stable, though the Nitrates and TDS are a bit higher than many would feel comfortable with. The plantstock and livestock in there have been thriving, and the old adage...if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Thinking back to how I kept this tank before the revamp, I was very inconsistent in just about everything, changing water when ever, adding random ferts when ever, turning the light on and off at different times, over feeding, only periodic co2. Pretty much what it comes down to for me, and my tank, and my solution to my BBA issue was consistency.

One thing that stands out to me on the many threads in dealing with BBA, and hell, pretty much any issue, is that these systems we are trying to keep and maintain well have so many interrelated parts, are so vastly complex, and it just seems that people start changing way too many parts at once, and end up all over the place, and really even counter productive because from what I have seen, the underlying issue in almost every case is some level of inconsistency some where, either known or unknown.

There really is not going to be any sure fire, 100% effective way to deal with much of anything again, because of the complexities involved in what we do. What one person does may not work for someone else because their systems are not the same.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

I have one tank with a little in it right now. I can only really see any on one side of the tank, and seems to be getting a foothold on an old piece (10+ years submerged) of mopani wood.








Plants and gravel so far minimally to unaffected. I am half tempted to move this to a tank with passive CO2 where it doesn't seem to grow at all and see if it dies or infects the tank. I *think* it will die, but I would cry if it just moved over to a new home. Still, in the name of science, maybe I should. But both are on the same tap, have similar lighting, and the biggest difference is plant density and a few PPM CO2. If it even does die right off, I'm not sure I would learn anything.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

What would you feed the pleco??? 

does it eat it?? Thought they didn't.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Yeah, Im just a sucker for punishment--- just ordered some more plants to replace the ones tossed. 
Simple stuff- swords and the like. 
However, I am going to keep this tank more realistic in future. This is a discus tank that requires large, frequent water changes of at least 2 x 75%. 
These large volume water changes kinda go against the grain of maintaining equilibrium and consistency that plants require. 

Simple sand substrate. Less hardscape. Back to basics.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Discusluv said:


> Yeah, Im just a sucker for punishment--- just ordered some more plants to replace the ones tossed.
> Simple stuff- swords and the like.
> However, I am going to keep this tank more realistic in future. This is a discus tank that requires large, frequent water changes of at least 2 x 75%.
> These large volume water changes kinda go against the grain of maintaining equilibrium and consistency that plants require.
> ...


Sounds like a good plan. 
Keep the light at a lower intensity as well, in a tank packed with low light plants there is no need to blast light. If you can find the right spectrum to bring out the discus colors then dial that in with a lower intensity.
I would love a discus tank in the future. Previous naive attempts have gone horribly...I was young and dumb. This time around it will be far more meticulous.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Jamo33 said:


> Sounds like a good plan.
> Keep the light at a lower intensity as well, in a tank packed with low light plants there is no need to blast light. If you can find the right spectrum to bring out the discus colors then dial that in with a lower intensity.
> I would love a discus tank in the future. Previous naive attempts have gone horribly...I was young and dumb. This time around it will be far more meticulous.


If you ever decide to again, I can help you here. 
At the moment, looking for either a confirmed breeding pair of discus to add to this tank to replace the pair I recently lost to bacterial cross-contamination or getting a group of juveniles to grow out and get a pair out of. There is a guy locally that has some wild juvenile discus that I might try this go around instead of domestic strains.


I have 2 lights on this tank- 2- 24 inch Current Satellite Plus Pro. maybe i should just do 1 instead of the 2.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Asteroid said:


> I'll agree here. In any given tank it can be several of these things or one of them that breaks the threshold for that setup and BBA is developed from the spores that exist.


Agreed.





> Not here, your basing this on lean dosing so you don't run out of something not based on algae control. Let's assume all necessary ferts are available even with large WCs.



There is more to it than just controlling fertilizer concentrations. Shrimpkeepers for example, even though they can meticulously remineralize RODI water and make it match the tanks parameters precisely, they still prefer smaller changes and adding stability bacteria at every water change.

Is this superstition? or based on the fact that bacteria concentrations and species change with water changes and shrimp are much more sensitive than plants to changes.



> And what do algae spores eat?


Ammonia and Nitrates(?)?


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

cl3537 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> There is more to it than just controlling fertilizer concentrations. Shrimpkeepers for example, even though they can meticulously remineralize RODI water and make it match the tanks parameters precisely, they still prefer smaller changes and adding stability bacteria at every water change.


Let's not get nichey, there's always certain fish or critters that need certain conditions let keep it to the 95%. 



cl3537 said:


> Ammonia and Nitrates(?)?


If you go under this premise that algae spores take in ammonia and plants will take in ammonia first and faster to me it's logical how a tank full of healthy plants prevent BBA. Everything else water changes, organic removal, good husbandry, etc all help, but they won't rid a tank of algae the way a continuous uptake of ammonia will from a tank full of plants.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

jeffkrol said:


> What would you feed the pleco???
> 
> does it eat it?? Thought they didn't.


This rhino pleco seems to crunch on the wood all the time. You can hear it from outside the tank. I feel like if he was consuming any substantial amount of BBA it would be gone.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Asteroid said:


> If you go under this premise that algae spores take in ammonia and plants will take in ammonia first and faster to me it's logical how a tank full of healthy plants prevent BBA. Everything else water changes, organic removal, good husbandry, etc all help, but they won't rid a tank of algae the way a continuous uptake of ammonia will from a tank full of plants.





I just dont buy this. If healthy plants are so central to the elimination/curb of growth of BBA. Why did I not have BBA in any of my tanks ( for 27 years) until I put plants in them 3 years ago? 

To me, this points to a cluster of variables contributing to/controlling the development of BBA in the aquarium. 

In my case, higher powered lighting was added, plants where there had been none, liquid ferts/substrate root tabs ( again, where there had been none) , and a higher demand for Co2.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> jeffkrol said:
> 
> 
> > What would you feed the pleco???
> ...


In general plecos will not touch BBA, it may seem like they are, but of course this is because the BBA is on wood. They will be simply chowing down on auwfuchs. The best I've seen in my experiences with any pleco species and BBA, is they knocking it loose whilst rasping on the wood. Free floating BBA is nice if you're there to catch it!


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> I do _not think_ it is only due to the _lack of maintenance_ in a tank.


No doubt it is a combination of factors. The problem here is tank maintenance is not black and white, its a continuum and often we don't know how good our job really is even though armchair quarterbacks will often blame the aquarist.

We don't talk about it much here but everyone could improve their maintenance techniques.

A few months ago I learned to ziptie a baster to my syphon and blow/syphon plants and substrate during water changes. But truthfully I know in my tank there is still tons of detritus and areas in my coarse inert substrate(easiest to clean) that aren't getting removed even by this method. Doing a deep vacuum in dirted or finer capped substrates is even more difficult.

Some pros use an external filter canister with filter floss, they circulate and return water while they vaccuum so you aren't limited by the amount of water or time, as water is filtered and then returned to the tank. This is especially useful for syphoning out moss cuttings in competition scapes. With this external filter you can trim and deep vacuum carefully for an hour and not run out of water. I haven't gone to this level of tank maintenance but dealing with moss cuttings is getting very cumbersome and I may try it in future.


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> I just dont buy this. If healthy plants are so central to the elimination/curb of growth of BBA. Why did I not have BBA in any of my tanks ( for 27 years) until I put plants in them 3 years ago?
> 
> To me, this points to a cluster of variables contributing to/controlling the development of BBA in the aquarium.
> 
> In my case, higher powered lighting was added, plants where there had been none, liquid ferts/substrate root tabs ( again, where there had been none) , and a higher demand for Co2.




Plants naturally create more dissolved organics in the water. And I’ve seen several plant-less tanks with BBA, it just a lot more common in planted tanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Yeah, I had a MARS rack I sold goldfish out of with tons of BBA. It never had a plant in it. There are definitely sets of conditions under which it thrives or dies out, but narrowing down precisely what those conditions are is easier said than done.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Discusluv said:


> I just dont buy this. If healthy plants are so central to the elimination/curb of growth of BBA. Why did I not have BBA in any of my tanks ( for 27 years) until I put plants in them 3 years ago?
> 
> To me, this points to a cluster of variables contributing to/controlling the development of BBA in the aquarium.
> 
> In my case, higher powered lighting was added, plants where there had been none, liquid ferts/substrate root tabs ( again, where there had been none) , and a higher demand for Co2.


Nothing works in a vacuum. You can't just have a good mass of plants and screw everything else. I have mentioned a thousand times it could be one factor or a combination of organics, light, plant mass/growth/uptake, co2, livestock, etc, etc. 

It's not really debatable that a tank full of healthy growing plants will allow you more wiggle room with lights and organics. Without this uptake it's much easier to get algae given all the other parameters stay the same.

Bump:


Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Yeah, I had a MARS rack I sold goldfish out of with tons of BBA. It never had a plant in it. There are definitely sets of conditions under which it thrives or dies out, but narrowing down precisely what those conditions are is easier said than done.


Most LFS have a TON of BBA and NO plants. They are high in livestock and waste. I'm pretty sure I've seen snails with BBA attached to their shells LOL Under those conditions even lights not plant-worthy will grow algae. Even Petco and Petsmart. Next time I go I'll take a few pics.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Asteroid said:


> Nothing works in a vacuum. You can't just have a good mass of plants and screw everything else. I have mentioned a thousand times it could be one factor or a combination of organics, light, plant mass/growth/uptake, co2, livestock, etc, etc.
> 
> It's not really debatable that a tank full of healthy growing plants will allow you more wiggle room with lights and organics. Without this uptake it's much easier to get algae given all the other parameters stay the same.
> 
> ...


Well, obviously, the variables that make BBA prevalent in an unplanted tank were not existing in my tanks to develop. It was only after I added plants, higher lighting, ferts, and a demand for higher Co2 that it made its appearance.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Discusluv said:


> Well, obviously, the variables that make BBA prevalent in an unplanted tank were not existing in my tanks to develop. It was only after I added plants, higher lighting, ferts, and a demand for higher Co2 that it made its appearance.


Learn to grow healthy plants by figuring out how to manage light, co2 and organics and you will not have BBA. Until then, enjoy your BBA. Some people actually find it attractive.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Asteroid said:


> Until then, enjoy your BBA.


 You did not just say that!




> It was only after I added plants, higher lighting, ferts, and a demand for higher Co2 that it made its appearance.


I think this is key. It seems to suffer in high tech tanks, definitely something about higher CO2 levels kills it. Or the plant's growth is taking something else out of the water that it requires. But there is clearly more to it than that. Many of my own and other's low tech tanks never see a bit of it.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Asteroid said:


> Learn to grow healthy plants by figuring out how to manage light, co2 and organics and you will not have BBA. Until then, enjoy your BBA. Some people actually find it attractive.


Thanks for the advice. :thumbsup:


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> I think this is key. It seems to suffer in high tech tanks, definitely something about higher CO2 levels kills it. Or the plant's growth is taking something else out of the water that it requires. But there is clearly more to it than that. Many of my own and other's low tech tanks never see a bit of it.


Spores need light and ammonium. The higher the light the more rapidly you will get algae reproduction. Low tech has dimmer light so the process is slower just like everything else in low tech. Co2 is NOT an algaecide. As you alluded to the co2 increases the plants uptake which removes the alga food source from the water quicker.


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## straha20 (Sep 1, 2016)

I am sure there are those who have been successful with algae management in high tech planted Discus tanks, but I imagine it would take a lot of work. The frequent large water changes will cause issues with co2 stability. I wonder if doing the water changes after lights out, and the co2 is shut off and in the process of off gassing would help mitigate the impact?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

straha20 said:


> I am sure there are those who have been successful with algae management in high tech planted Discus tanks, but I imagine it would take a lot of work. The frequent large water changes will cause issues with co2 stability. I wonder if doing the water changes after lights out, and the co2 is shut off and in the process of off gassing would help mitigate the impact?


Usually one suffers- either the discus or the plants in the process. 

Their needs are really incompatible. 

I have seen some beautiful tanks with absolutely gorgeous plants : hi-tech lighting, Co2, high ferts- the works with discus. You take a closer look at the discus and they are malnourished, stunted in growth, large eye to body ratio, low-girth around head and body. Their optimum growth and vigor has been compromised due to lack of water changes, high nitrates, Co2. Discus are not like other fish, they exude a thick heavy mucus membrane daily ( which is also where their fry feed) that coats surfaces in aquarium. When this mucus builds up on tank walls, surfaces, in water column, it works as a growth inhibitor. [It is has hormones that work to inhibit growth of the discus fish]. 

With my discus, the plants always suffer because I wont compromise their health for plant health. There really is no balance between the two to make both optimum- the health in discus and plants simultaneously achievable. You will see pictures on the internet of the two together- but, never actual accounts of this ( Hi-tech/discus) working long term.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> You did not just say that!
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is key. It seems to suffer in high tech tanks, definitely something about higher CO2 levels kills it. Or the plant's growth is taking something else out of the water that it requires. But there is clearly more to it than that. Many of my own and other's low tech tanks never see a bit of it.



Separating cause and effect can be tricky.. more CO2 or better, healthier growth via more CO2???.. 


It doesn't have to take anything out but ammonia.. 
Or it doesn't leak anything out due to healthier tissue..


Limiting factor type stuff..


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> You did not just say that!


Oh yeah, whenever he has an opportunity.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Asteroid said:


> Let's not get nichey, there's always certain fish or critters that need certain conditions let keep it to the 95%.


You missed the point altogether and it is why you refuse to even consider what @Edward is talking about.

It isn't nichey, all tanks with flora and fauna have these equilibriums its just the aquarium hobby tends to ignore the complex details because it isn't a requirement for growing most plants, whereas for sensitive flora or fauna more care has to be taken.

There is a complex equilibrium of Bacteria, Periphyton, Microorganisms, Organics, Fertilizers, Oxygen, Light, CO2 that forms a healthy equilibrium necessary for healthy plants and an algae free tank. Water changes interrupt this equilibrium. Just because you cannot visually observe this interruption doesn't mean that plants don't have to adapt or that nothing is changing.

This is why when establishing a new tank, time is required to cycle through various undesireable products or stages (Diatoms, Fungus, Brown Algae) these occur as result of an immature equilibrium of Bacteria and Microrganisms among other things.

It is not as simple as healthy plants, excess/balanced ferts, balanced light, increase ammonia uptake by plants >>> prevent algae. Bacteria, Plants, Plant Roots, Microorganisms, etc. in equilibrium play major roles in breaking down/filtering Organics and other substances and forming a healthy equilibrium necessary to prevent algae and promote healthy plant growth. 



> If you go under this premise that algae spores take in ammonia and plants will take in ammonia first and faster to me it's logical how a tank full of healthy plants prevent BBA.


That is not an accurate or complete premise.

Algae spores(invisble) require only trace amounts of Ammonia which are present in undetectable levels in any aquarium with flora and/or fauna. Then mature stage Algae feeds on Nitrates afterwards(also present if trace Ammonia was present).



> Everything else water changes, organic removal, good husbandry, etc all help, but they won't rid a tank of algae the way a continuous uptake of ammonia will from a tank full of plants.


There is no proof for the causation in that argument. A tank full of plants can have algae or it may not.
Plants are also not a requirement for an algae free tank. BB consume ammonia quickly in most mature tanks and consumes all available Ammonia as fast as it is produced. Bacteria colonies grow/shrink in equilibrium with amount of Ammonia produced. Algae blooms from Ammonia(if a tank is out of equilibrium or uncycled) are not to my knowledge correlated with BBA but rather other forms of algae.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

cl3537 said:


> You missed the point altogether and it is why you refuse to even consider what @*Edward* is talking about.
> There is a complex equilibrium of Bacteria, Periphyton, Microorganisms, Organics, Fertilizers, Oxygen, Light, CO2 that forms a healthy equilibrium necessary for an algae free tank. Water changes interrupt this equilibrium. Just because you cannot visually observe this interruption doesn't mean that plants don't have to adapt or that nothing is changing.
> 
> It is not as simple as healthy plants, excess/balanced ferts, balanced light, increase ammonia uptake by plants >>> prevent algae. Bacteria, Plants, Plant Roots, Microorganisms, etc. in equilibrium play major roles in breaking down Organics and other substances and forming a healthy equilibrium necessary to prevent algae and promote healthy plant growth.
> ...


 Everything else water changes, organic removal, good husbandry, etc all help, but they won't rid a tank of algae the way a continuous uptake of ammonia will from a tank full of plants.[/QUOTE]

There is no proof for the causation in that argument. A tank full of plants can have algae or it may not.
Plants are also not a requirement for an algae free tank. BB consume ammonia quickly in most mature tanks and consumes all available Ammonia as fast as it is produced. Bacteria colonies grow/shrink in equilibrium with amount of Ammonia produced. Algae blooms from Ammonia(if a tank is out of equilibrium or uncycled) are not to my knowledge correlated with BBA but rather other forms of algae.[/QUOTE]


_Thanks for explaining what Edward was saying. 

Geezo, now Im embarrassed. That was what all that meme stuff was all about. hmm...

Well, all I can say is my Masters degree is not in the science or math field- my brain runs along different lines.  :nerd:

Now, however, I understand he and I believe the same thing. 

He needs to learn how to explain to the lay person better or get someone like you to translate for him 
You know, bring it out to the masses where it can circulate._


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Asteroid said:


> You take everything out of context to treat your own purposes. Just like you did with the shrimp example.


This whole thread was a nice discussion, without the usual bickering and personal attacks, let us both try to keep it on track.
I don't beleive I've taken your comments out of context, if I have please rephrase your message, it was not my intention.

My repy to you summarized is really: 

Trace Ammonia is not the singular cause of determining whether a tank will have BBA or not, so the fact that plants can uptake Ammonia really does not in my opinion adequately explain or predict whether a tank will have BBA or not. Ammonia, Organics, light, flow are all factors that together contribute.

I prefer this paragraph instead which touches with more detail on this topic.

_Most people do not realize that aquatic plants release a large amount of photosynthate products into the water. People believe that the flow of chemicals is only one-way. But aquatic plants interact with their environment. Sugars and other carbohydrates as well as the nutrients that are released from the plants serve as food to the bacteria, which in turn serve the plants – for example, they transform minerals (salts) into plant-usable forms. Plants, therefore, in a sense, care for their own zoological garden. In nature, these products have a very low concentration, mainly due to the huge mass of water, but in our aquariums (which are really tiny compared to ponds or lakes), the released products of photosynthesis (i.e. photosynthates) easily accumulate and "clutter" the surface of the plants. The accumulated material then acts as a barrier that prevents the effective absorption of nutrients and CO2, but when these organic products start to decompose they attract algae and encourage their growth, Therefore, it is also unreasonable to dose large amounts of nutrients while neglecting maintenance. High doses of nutrients require high level of maintenance, and less frequent maintenance requires small amounts of nutrients. Therefore, when someone says he doesn't like frequent water changes, we have to answer him that he need to reduce fertilizer dosage. And if we want to reduce the amount of nutrients without asking for trouble, we also need to reduce the lighting. These three factors are closely linked, and if people do not understand it, they get into trouble. Therefore, as long as the aquarists keep the tank clean, they can safely dose virtually any amount of [inorganic] nutrients."_

Clive Greene (Ukaps moderator)


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

cl3537 said:


> ...
> There is a complex equilibrium of Bacteria, Periphyton, Microorganisms, Organics, Fertilizers, Oxygen, Light, CO2 that forms a healthy equilibrium necessary for healthy plants and an algae free tank. Water changes interrupt this equilibrium. Just because you cannot visually observe this interruption doesn't mean that plants don't have to adapt or that nothing is changing.
> .


Can you show me the valid peer reviewed study that proves this point. Otherwise your just postulating on how water changes disrupt this "complex equilibrium" 

In reality most hi-tech planted tank people do large regular water changes and I'm not only referring to EI, but to most hi-tech setups. I really don't see their plants being harmed by this. The benefits seem to outweigh your fragile equilibrium.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Discusluv said:


> In my case, higher powered lighting was added


I have no horse in this race, but my guess is that the answer is above. Higher light.

The good news is that low light plants can grow and be healthy with very, very little light. And very, very little ferts as well. IMO, if you lower the light BBA will recede.

And you do have a unique situation. Sensitive expensive fish that thrive in very particular conditions.

I agree high tech planted and Discus is a tough balancing act. Probably best to focus on one or the other. And I think I know which one that will be, and I don't blame you. 

Raising Discus to their best potential is difficult enough, and does not correlate well with the needs of high tech planted.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Asteroid said:


> Can you show me the valid peer reviewed study that proves this point. Otherwise your just postulating on how water changes disrupt this "complex equilibrium"
> 
> In reality most hi-tech planted tank people do large regular water changes and I'm not only referring to EI, but to most hi-tech setups. I really don't see their plants being harmed by this. The benefits seem to outweigh your fragile equilibrium.


Start with this:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/periphyton and references therein.

A good first step and primer to understanding part of the equilibrium.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

cl3537 said:


> Start with this:
> 
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/periphyton and references therein.
> 
> A good first step and primer to understanding part of the equilibrium.


Once again I have no horse in this race. 

However, there is no doubt there is an overwhelming number of successful planted tanks that perform large regular changes. This really can't be argued. 

My personal experience has been that large regular water changes are the single best thing you can do for both plants and fish. Personally I change 70% weekly. To me, the benefit of removing dissolved organics outweighs any effect on equilibrium.

That being said, this argument has been going on for years. In the end, change the amount of water that provides you the best results. If it works for you, more power to you and stick with whatever works best for your ecosystem.


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

OP, there are plants that do well in warm water, but most plants a lot of us like to keep don’t do well at discus levels of warmth. I’ve seen some web sites that list specific species that are good for discus tanks, I believe all of which are low tech insofar as their needs. Just thought I’d throw that out there.

I don’t think I’d do discus in a high tech tank simply for care reasons, but it is absolutely possible to have a healthy planted tank with healthy discus imo.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

cl3537 said:


> Start with this:
> 
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/periphyton and references therein.
> 
> A good first step and primer to understanding part of the equilibrium.


So I should ignore my reality and that of the majority of aquarists and go by your attached article? How silly, really? What's the point of showing me science if it has no relevance to being successful in this hobby? So you and the other "scientists' can flex your mental muscles. The bottom line is results. Show me two tanks one with water changes and one without out using the same light, plants, filter, etc. and let's see which is more important, the water change or the equilibrium your trying to protect.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> That being said, this argument has been going on for years. In the end, change the amount of water that provides you the best results. If it works for you, more power to you and stick with whatever works best for your ecosystem.


No Disagreement there I said as much in post #42.



cl3537 said:


> The correlation between TOCs and lowering them by water changes, and that cleaning up dirty tanks and removing organics does aid in reducing algae is more readily adopted.


I only entered this argument to support the plausibility of Edwards argument and to point out that there is a lot more going on our tanks than is readily understood here or recited here.

I change about 30 - 35% now. I don't feel the need to change more. Not a spec of algae on the glass.



cl3537 said:


> Edward is not alone, there are many experienced Aquarists who don't advise changing more than WC more than 25-30% at a time due to potential loss of Bacteria or for reasons they can't explain except it is preferable for their plants and equilibrium to keep to a smaller water change schedule and dose more lean. My tank has found a nice equilibrium where I don't want to dose too much (I am significantly leaner than PPS-PRO) nor let things bottom out with large water changes.



I have nothing else to offer on this topic.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

varanidguy said:


> ...
> I don’t think I’d do discus in a high tech tank simply for care reasons, but it is absolutely possible to have a healthy planted tank with healthy discus imo...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Another TPT member who keeps discus and has healthy plants and I believe healthy discus seems to agree with you.



discuspaul said:


> ...
> Nothing wrong with keeping discus in a heavily planted tank using pressurized CO2, if you're familiar both with keeping discus healthy, and using CO2 properly.
> Many people do it well, and successfully.
> If you're new to either one or the other, particularly discus-keeping, that can be, and often is, a recipe for problems.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Asteroid said:


> Another TPT member who keeps discus and has healthy plants and I believe healthy discus seems to agree with you.


 Well, there you go, someone that says they have done it and seen others do it. 

Is that all I get?


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> Well, there you go, someone that says they have done it and seen others do it.
> 
> Is that all I get?


Isn't that a huge part of the forums, sharing experiences?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

varanidguy said:


> Isn't that a huge part of the forums, sharing experiences?


 Yes, it is, but, --- if you have raised discus you would know the difficulty of marrying the two successfully. 

Low-tech with plants/discus can be done. Yet, this is done with difficulty in maintaining balance between two because of the need for frequent large water changes for discus. These water changes are counter-intuitive to aquarium plants. 

Juvenile discus require 5 X 50% water changes weekly for optimum health and growth.
Subadults require 3 X 50-75% water changes weekly "".

Adults require 2x 50-75% water changes weekly "".


Hi-tech long term. I want to see it done over time. Sorry, not just gonna take someones word on success ( sharing of experience) without seeing some pictures of it being done overtime. Pictures of the discus and the plants.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

The substrate comes Friday- finally. I am sick of looking at a bare-bottomed tank and a bunch of skittish fish. Especially the discus. They are startling themselves off of their own shadows as they move across the bottom. 
The Blue phantom pleco was unhappy until I added his wood back in- now he is content again. 

The plants I sprayed with Excel and dumped into my 30 gallon appear to have held up well. They are mostly crypts- I would hate to lose them. 
_I am _, however, reluctant to use them - but, I dont see any traces of BBA on them.


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## KayakJimW (Aug 12, 2016)

I wonder if a UV sterilizer would help after the overhaul? After the BBA has been physically removed, to zap any spores that may be in there. 

...just thinking of ways to stack chips in favor of not getting it again


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

KayakJimW said:


> I wonder if a UV sterilizer would help after the overhaul? After the BBA has been physically removed, to zap any spores that may be in there.
> 
> ...just thinking of ways to stack chips in favor of not getting it again


Yes, this is a very good idea. I have UV on my 180 and makes a huge difference. I need it for this tank as well.


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## evil8 (Aug 7, 2018)

Discusluv said:


> The plants I sprayed with Excel and dumped into my 30 gallon appear to have held up well. They are mostly crypts- I would hate to lose them.
> _I am _, however, reluctant to use them - but, I dont see any traces of BBA on them.


I have some Excel... I should try this. Did you pull the plants, spray them and then dump them into the 30? Is there fish in that 30 too? I've been sort of waiting until I find some new driftwood to redo this tank that's getting consumed with BBA, but it drives me nuts. I have one bucephalandra that's completely covered AND flowering. So not right...


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Not who you are asking, but I've put Excel in a spray bottle many times to kill algae including BBA. If it's driftwood or anything easily removable, just pull it out, spray it, wait 15 minutes, rinse well, and add back to the tank. I'd go maybe 5 minutes on plants that aren't thick and tough like Anubias. It will kill all the BBA you get it on, though it's all but impossible to spray everything. I've drained a tank totally to get the substrate before, but obviously you'd like to upset the tank as little as possible.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

evil8 said:


> I have some Excel... I should try this. Did you pull the plants, spray them and then dump them into the 30? Is there fish in that 30 too? I've been sort of waiting until I find some new driftwood to redo this tank that's getting consumed with BBA, but it drives me nuts. I have one bucephalandra that's completely covered AND flowering. So not right...


 I hate to give directions about doing this becuase Im such a noob-- but, I can tell you what I did according to others instructions.
I had a lot of wood that had BBA on it so took outside and sprayed -really, saturated - with Excel. I then let air-dry for about 6 hours in sun. Probably overkill and unnecessary but this stuff is a pain!


I then took my plants out. The ones that were infested with BBA I tossed. Others, I cut off leaves that were bad. Some had no BBA on them at all. Regardless, all the plants I saved I sprayed with the Excel outside of tank, let sit for about 6-7 minutes, then dropped in my 30 gallon. There are fish in here, some Praeox rainbows and bristle-nose pleco pair- they didn't seem to register any issue at all. But, I have lots of aeration and a strong filter on tank. 



All substrate was tossed. All hardware cleaned. Airstones, prefilter, and airline replaced. 

If this doesn't work Ill cry. :crying:

Bump:


KayakJimW said:


> I wonder if a UV sterilizer would help after the overhaul? After the BBA has been physically removed, to zap any spores that may be in there.
> 
> ...just thinking of ways to stack chips in favor of not getting it again


 Again, I thank you for this suggestion. I went looking on Amazon for a possible model. The following looks like a nice one.. I wonder if I can modify this UV sterilizer off of my Fluvel G6 filter? 



https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003WRL6KG/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

You might need to step down the hose diameter for the input, but I can't tell from the item description. Also, found it a little cheaper with free shipping from this seller: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003WRL6KG/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1BNS86D4V4GO1&psc=1


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> You might need to step down the hose diameter for the input, but I can't tell from the item description. Also, found it a little cheaper with free shipping from this seller: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003WRL6KG/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1BNS86D4V4GO1&psc=1


Thank you. 
I figure if I am going to get a UV sterilizer for this discus tank, I might as well get one that will not only deal with algae, but bacteria and protozoa. 

It also looks like several people talk about how they modified this to fit their particular needs. 

Ill have the hubby look at it.


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## straha20 (Sep 1, 2016)

Discusluv said:


> Thank you.
> I figure if I am going to get a UV sterilizer for this discus tank, I might as well get one that will not only deal with algae, but bacteria and protozoa.
> 
> It also looks like several people talk about how they modified this to fit their particular needs.
> ...


Yeah, adapting hose size is easy, just make sure you don't step down in size too much, otherwise it'll restrict flow too much. If you are in a location that has Menard's hardware stores, their fittings and adapters selection is VASTLY and FAR superior to Lowe's and Home Depot.


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## evil8 (Aug 7, 2018)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Not who you are asking, but I've put Excel in a spray bottle many times to kill algae including BBA.





Discusluv said:


> I can tell you what I did according to others instructions.


Thanks guys!


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

KayakJimW said:


> After the BBA has been physically removed, to zap any spores that may be in there.
> 
> ...just thinking of ways to stack chips in favor of not getting it again


Use a paint brush and paint it on the wood, plants etc.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Not who you are asking, but I've put Excel in a spray bottle many times to kill algae including BBA. If it's driftwood or anything easily removable, just pull it out, spray it, wait 15 minutes, rinse well, and add back to the tank. I'd go maybe 5 minutes on plants that aren't thick and tough like Anubias. It will kill all the BBA you get it on, though it's all but impossible to spray everything. I've drained a tank totally to get the substrate before, but obviously you'd like to upset the tank as little as possible.


Ive been basically treating my tank as if it is going through a mini-cycle with taking out substrate. Ive been doing 50% daily water changes. The filter should catch up within 72-96 hours. This tank has been running many years- so biofilter well established. Tricky business, however, with a full tank of fish.


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## stormvisions (Aug 22, 2019)

Long shot but did you purchase your gravel for this tank from a non-aquarium shop source (other than gravel you have used previously in your other tanks that don't have an issue)? There are some rocks that have naturally occurring phosphates.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

UPDATE!

All the plants that I saved and sprayed with Excel have melted and died in the 30 gallon. Do not follow my instructions above- they will likely kill your plants.

I have to start all over again. Ordered a mess of plants. 
The crypts I really mourn- they were the only thing in this tank that was doing well despite the BBA.

Bump:


stormvisions said:


> Long shot but did you purchase your gravel for this tank from a non-aquarium shop source (other than gravel you have used previously in your other tanks that don't have an issue)? There are some rocks that have naturally occurring phosphates.


These were all Caribsea products . Ecocomplete and Peace River Gravel


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Keep an eye on the crypts, if the leaves melt they will often come back. If not, I'll ROAK you some. I was worried the contact time was too long, but wouldn't have expected it to be nuclear. Hate to hear that and feel somewhat responsible.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Keep an eye on the crypts, if the leaves melt they will often come back. If not, I'll ROAK you some. I was worried the contact time was too long, but wouldn't have expected it to be nuclear. Hate to hear that and feel somewhat responsible.


 No way are you responsible, my friend!
You have been a great help to me.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Oddly @Discusluv, on the complete flip side, I sprayed some plants down with excel recently and had absolutely no change. Bba may have even grown...

Sorry to hear about your plants!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Jamo33 said:


> Oddly @*Discusluv*, on the complete flip side, I sprayed some plants down with excel recently and had absolutely no change. Bba may have even grown...
> 
> Sorry to hear about your plants!


You probably didn't spray enough and I sprayed too much. :|


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

blue ridge reef said:


> keep an eye on the crypts, if the leaves melt they will often come back.


 +1

.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Edward said:


> +1
> 
> .


 @Edward- does PPS Pro have complete pre-measured dry ferts for Low tech aquariums?


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Discusluv said:


> @Edward- does PPS Pro have complete pre-measured dry ferts for Low tech aquariums?


 Low tech high tech, never seen a clear definition of either. 
Anyhow, I can make a custom made solution for your specific situation. What is your source water Ca, Mg, KH and how many gallons will you be changing at once?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Edward said:


> Low tech high tech, never seen a clear definition of either.
> Anyhow, I can make a custom made solution for your specific situation. What is your source water Ca, Mg, KH and how many gallons will you be changing at once?


 Can you get this from my water report? Mg and Ca- because I dont know. Here is my report; I am service area #2. 

https://www.egwd.org/wp-content/uploads/FINAL-Elk-Grove-Water-District-6.5.19.pdf

I know my KH is 3.
I have 5 different tanks that change the following gallons weekly: 

180 gallon- change 100 gallons weekly.
60 gallon ( discus tank) - change 80 gallons weekly.
30 gallon- change 15 gallons weekly.
30 gallon- 10 gallons weekly. 

9 gallon 2 gallons weekly


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Not weekly, at one time.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Edward said:


> Not weekly, at one time.


Sorry, dont know.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

These are the plants ordered for this tank: 

Echinodorus Chameleon 
Echinodorus Small Bear
Mini Pellia 
Rotala Bossii
Cryptocoryne Parva 
Cryptocoryne Wendtii Gecko 
Helanthium Quadricostatus (Echinodorus) 
Cryptocoryne Tropica Hybrid 

Plants already have and transferring from my existing stock in 180 gallon:
Ludwigia repens
Leopard valisneria
Crypt spiralis
Pogo. Octopus


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Ooh, I like that selection. Some favorites of mine there... and two I'd have gifted you! Please post in the WTB section if ever have your eye on anything. I went from not being able to keep leopard val alive (I blame soft water tanks and Excel) to having it popping up in the middle of tanks lately.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Discusluv said:


> Can you get this from my water report? Mg and Ca- because I dont know. Here is my report; I am service area #2.
> 
> https://www.egwd.org/wp-content/uploads/FINAL-Elk-Grove-Water-District-6.5.19.pdf


Too bad you didn’t show us the water report before. 

TDS fluctuates between 66 – 330 ppm, TDS Conductivity 100 – 530 µS, Chloride 2 – 160 ppm, GH 0.9 – 20.7 degrees, KH 2.4 – 16.2 degrees, Na 4 – 64 ppm, Ca 3.4 - 85 ppm, Mg 1.6 – 38 ppm. This reminds me of area described here. Sorry, can’t make a program that would work with this kind of fluctuations but at least it explains why you had difficulties growing plants before. 

If you still want to try, add 30 ppm K with K2SO4 to the new changed water. For example, 180 gallon aquarium is 24” tall. Put a tape or mark 6”, 12” and 18” from top. If you change up to 6”, it is 25%, 45 gallons. The same method for 12”, it is 90 gallons. And 18” is 75%, 135 gallons. 

Every time you change water on the 180 gallon aquarium:
25%, 45 gallon, add 11 grams K2SO4 to 30 ppm K
50%, 90 gallon, add 23 grams K2SO4 to 30 ppm K
75%, 135 gallons, add 34 grams K2SO4 to 30 ppm K

So much for macros with discus fish. For trace elements dose PPS-Pro Solution #2 Micros at 0.01 ppm Fe a day, 0.1 ml per 10 gallon, which is 1.8 ml for 180 gallon aquarium. 

Aquariums with strong light and CO2 and without discus fish or with low fish load may need additional N and P.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Edward said:


> Too bad you didn’t show us the water report before.
> 
> TDS fluctuates between 66 – 330 ppm, TDS Conductivity 100 – 530 µS, Chloride 2 – 160 ppm, GH 0.9 – 20.7 degrees, KH 2.4 – 16.2 degrees, Na 4 – 64 ppm, Ca 3.4 - 85 ppm, Mg 1.6 – 38 ppm. This reminds me of area described here. Sorry, can’t make a program that would work with this kind of fluctuations but at least it explains why you had difficulties growing plants before.
> 
> ...


 Wow! Sounds like Im cursed with some terrible water due to fluctuations. 

It doesn't appear to have any effect on fish-- and I have some finicky ones. 

I just bought an R/O unit, so maybe I need to just get some big storage bins and start going to R/O for all my tanks.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Ugh! But, I change 200 gallons of water a week. That is alot of R/O storage. 
My R/O unit is from Bulk Reef Supply. Its brand new- I still haven't got it set up yet. 
This is the one I got- at 75 gallons per day. 

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/4-st...fsLp2miXTr5u408EF8PN7s0T-edFe91BoCNzgQAvD_BwE


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> Wow! Sounds like Im cursed with some terrible water due to fluctuations.
> 
> It doesn't appear to have any effect on fish-- and I have some finicky ones.
> 
> I just bought an R/O unit, so maybe I need to just get some big storage bins and start going to R/O for all my tanks.


If you want things controlled precisely then RO is best.
However if you want to work with the water you have(and you aren't hyperfocussed on plants), you test your kh and gh with API kit and compare that to the average value.

Your kh is a very wide range on the report, severe fluctuations are not good for plants. But your actual water may not fluctuate as much as their testing site.

You have to tell us which area you live in based on the report:

One area has 27ppm Ca and 19Mg (Average) 
The other 15ppm Ca and 9 Mg (Average)

Carbonates could be all over the place so test your kh.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

cl3537 said:


> If you want things controlled precisely then RO is best.
> However if you want to work with the water you have(and you aren't hyperfocussed on plants), you test your kh and gh with API kit and compare that to the average value.
> 
> Your kh is a very wide range on the report, severe fluctuations are not good for plants. But your actual water may not fluctuate as much as their testing site.
> ...


 Every time I have tested my KH it has been around 3. I will test it again tomorrow. 

I live in Service Area 1 on report.
One area has 27ppm Ca and 19Mg


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Tested my kh and GH

KH-3
Gh-4


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> Tested my kh and GH
> 
> KH-3
> Gh-4


Then I don't see why you can't use your tap water with those values.
I'd add 1gh of both ca and mg just in case but that should be more enough for easy to grow plants.

You may want to test your tap water monthly to see if those values change much but if not I think that your water should be fine especially in a non co2 tank.

The key will be 50 par or less and no more than 4 - 6 hours of light, don't drive the system too hard.
Fertilizer can be lean, I'd consider 1/2 pps pro or something modified if you are willing to do dry ferts.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Going to a RO back in 90’s was about best thing I ever did for aquarium keeping. Consistent results, no more having to use dechlor. Mines much smaller than that but it’s still running after all these years, been through a few membrane replacement. Also a tap at kitchen sink and hooked to ice maker as well. Coffee even tastes better.


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## evil8 (Aug 7, 2018)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> I went from not being able to keep leopard val alive (I blame soft water tanks and Excel) to having it popping up in the middle of tanks lately.


Nice! I've wanted to try leopard val since I first saw some.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Discusluv said:


> Every time I have tested my KH it has been around 3. I will test it again tomorrow. I live in Service Area 1 on report.


Service Area 1
Cu 0.25 ppm, TDS 180 – 330 ppm, TDS Conductivity 210 – 520 µS, Chloride 5.5 – 20 ppm, GH 3.6 – 12.9 degrees, KH 5.3 – 12.3 degrees, Na 17 – 23 ppm, Ca 12 – 42 ppm, Mg 8 – 31 ppm. 

Cu is high but still livable. TDS fluctuates little but also nothing to worry about. Chloride, Na and Ca are perfect. Little problem is when high KH and high Mg come, discus and sensitive plants may complain. Fast and easy way to check for sudden fluctuations is by monitoring TDS with any cheap Home Depot TDS meter. They are mostly calibrated in ppm, few in µS.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I will start a log to keep track of KH/GH and TDS. 
When I tested a couple months ago when set up shrimp tank the KH was 3 and the GH was 6. 

My husband is being difficult about setting up R/O. Says my fish have been fine this long without it. 
Frustrating.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Discusluv said:


> I will start a log to keep track of KH/GH and TDS.
> When I tested a couple months ago when set up shrimp tank the KH was 3 and the GH was 6.


 Good idea. 
Maybe the water report is not about your water. Also, Water Works sometimes mix waters from several sources.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Sand has been delayed. Was supposed to be delivered today. Typical, the vendor waits to tell you order delayed on day it was supposed to be delivered. 
They will not be getting any of my future business because this means they had the product on their website as available when they did not---either an indication of shoddy record keeping/inventory or ( at worst) false advertising. Need to step up their game if they want to stay relevant in an increasingly online market for aquarium goods. 

Amy, a bit frustrated? 
Yes! ~ [breathe- this is supposed to be fun. ]
Okay. :/

I had arranged that the plants be delivered when the substrate was, now plants will be here, today, 3 days before sand. 
I guess Ill go see what I can gather up locally.


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> Sand has been delayed. Was supposed to be delivered today. Typical, the vendor waits to tell you order delayed on day it was supposed to be delivered.
> They will not be getting any of my future business because this means they had the product on their website as available when they did not---either an indication of shoddy record keeping/inventory or ( at worst) false advertising. Need to step up their game if they want to stay relevant in an increasingly online market for aquarium goods.
> 
> Amy, a bit frustrated?
> ...


You could always float the plants until your sand arrives.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

varanidguy said:


> You could always float the plants until your sand arrives.


I guess...


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> I guess...




Hahaha I know the feeling.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

BBA question for the group: If I want to do a glut plant dip, what concentration should I use? I've got some beat up Java fern that's got some BBA around the edges, but with the exception of some injured plant leaves that I can easily trim off, the rest of the tank is mercifully BBA free. So it'd be easier to just remove & dip the affected plants than dose the whole tank.

Thanks!


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Desert Pupfish said:


> BBA question for the group: If I want to do a glut plant dip, what concentration should I use? I've got some beat up Java fern that's got some BBA around the edges, but with the exception of some injured plant leaves that I can easily trim off, the rest of the tank is mercifully BBA free. So it'd be easier to just remove & dip the affected plants than dose the whole tank.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!




To be honest, for dips, I’ve had a lot better luck using bleach. Even with more delicate plants like AR, I’ve also dipped anubias and java fern. 19 parts water to 1 part standard bleach for 3 minutes, then soaked in water with a massive overdose (like one cap of Prime to a half gallon of water) for five minutes. Haven’t lost a plant yet doing it that way nor have I poisoned any fish. After the Prime soak, rinse thoroughly and plant.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Dipping plants into common kitchen vinegar for ten seconds, rinse and return works well.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

When I've sprayed Glut, I've used straight Flourish Excel. Just spray, wait a minute, rinse well and put back in the tank. I don't think a lot of contact time is beneficial, seems to work in well under 5 minutes and longer contact times have shown tough on Amy's plants. When using bleach baths on aquarium stuff, I always followed it with a vinegar rinse thinking it would help neutralize the base. No idea if this is even needed, but one of my early LFS mentors taught me that and I've just always done it since I have vinegar around the house anyway.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> When I've sprayed Glut, I've used straight Flourish Excel. Just spray, wait a minute, rinse well and put back in the tank. I don't think a lot of contact time is beneficial, seems to work in well under 5 minutes and longer contact times have shown tough on Amy's plants. When using bleach baths on aquarium stuff, I always followed it with a vinegar rinse thinking it would help neutralize the base. No idea if this is even needed, but one of my early LFS mentors taught me that and I've just always done it since I have vinegar around the house anyway.


Yep, I left it on too long.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Substrate comes today! The fish will be so happy!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

No more BBA  
Yippee!
~Okay, for now- but, I am going to stay positive. 

The plan is to keep both lights I have on tank because I need the spread; but, only use for 6 hours a day. Three hours in morning and 3 in evening. 
I put root tabs around plants and will be dosing in water column with All- in one- (Thrive) for low tech after each water change. Water changes are 2 x 50-75% weekly. 
Im also working on R/O-- have the R/O unit, actually. It is just the logistics of its set-up and use that needs to be "hashed out" with SO. Anyways. 

I want to thank all who took the time to help me with this issue. I appreciate it.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

@Discusluv
Does this tank need the two water changes per week Amy?
Are you running extremely high nitrates after a week?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Jamo33 said:


> @*Discusluv*
> Does this tank need the two water changes per week Amy?
> Are you running extremely high nitrates after a week?


No, not showing high nitrates. Frequent water changes are because it is a discus tank. Need to turn over 100% of water weekly for discus. Really, this is most likely why I got BBA in the first place. Its just hard to achieve balance between plants and fish when this much water gets changed out each week. I know this balance has been achieved by some discus keepers; but, Im pretty new to plants and haven't yet achieved the skill needed to do so.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Discusluv said:


> No, not showing high nitrates. Frequent water changes are because it is a discus tank. Need to turn over 100% of water weekly for discus. Really, this is most likely why I got BBA in the first place. Its just hard to achieve balance between plants and fish when this much water gets changed out each week. I know this balance has been achieved by some discus keepers; but, Im pretty new to plants and haven't yet achieved the skill needed to do so.



Oh my goodness, of course.
I did not even see the Discus in those photos!
Well this makes more sense, sorry wasn't thinking!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Jamo33 said:


> Oh my goodness, of course.
> I did not even see the Discus in those photos!
> Well this makes more sense, sorry wasn't thinking!


 Only two discus in here right now. But, all the tetras and other fish in here (besides the discus) will be moving soon because getting a small group of some F1 discus ( parents wild) juveniles to grow out. 



Here is a picture of the 2 discus that are in here right now ( just hiding).


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Gorgeous.
One day, when space and money become less of an issue than they currently are...I shall be contacting you for some advice and some potential offspring if you are planning to do so!
In other, more relevant to the thread news, it appears my excel plants spray down cause some of my buce and anubias leaves to rot and drop off...whilst the BBA help strong and never wavered. I truly hate this algae. 
Might set up a tank in the future and attempt to farm it, really get a strong amount of BBA in a tank and then trial methods of eradication to prove what will actually help us in the battle.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Jamo33 said:


> Gorgeous.
> One day, when space and money become less of an issue than they currently are...I shall be contacting you for some advice and some potential offspring if you are planning to do so!
> In other, more relevant to the thread news, it appears my excel plants spray down cause some of my buce and anubias leaves to rot and drop off...whilst the BBA help strong and never wavered. I truly hate this algae.
> Might set up a tank in the future and attempt to farm it, really get a strong amount of BBA in a tank and then trial methods of eradication to prove what will actually help us in the battle.


 Breeding of discus is definitely in my future plans. I have moved away, however, from the brightly colored hybrids so popular with most and am now more interested in the more subtle colors of wilds. Both of these discus in picture are F1's, and the group of juveniles I plan to get are as well. 

If in the future I get a successful spawn, fry-- Ill send some your way for the cost of shipping. Certainly. :smile2:



BBA is so frustrating. I have had it in this tank for around 2 years. Hopefully it wont come back after all this work.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Discusluv said:


> Jamo33 said:
> 
> 
> > Gorgeous.
> ...


I think there is a beauty in the natural colors a lot of our fish presented in the wild. It is only through our desires to get more extreme and more palatable (to some) colorations that we end up with these extreme typations. Personal choice, let them be, don't selectively breed for mutations and embrace nature as it should be (bar the existence of them in a small volume of water). 

You're too kind! Can you document your attempts when/if you begin? As a once avid hobbyist pleco breeder, I love the steps and measures we take to get our fish to a point where they are happy enough to breed. Then all the follow steps to successfully raise the fry. I think I've said it before, but I once had 7 tanks specifically aimed at the raising of different generations of fry. A lot of water changes! 

As for the BBA. You're doing everything you can, if nothing else perhaps constant removal is an annoying yet achievable approach? Each water change pluck a bit or cut an affected leaf? Could work.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

You can kill all the algae on the wood np, especially if you take it out there's no reason to hold back on concentration of h2o2/excel, but if you put it back in another tank with similar conditions it will likely grow algae anew.

Dur I totally had this window open for weeks and replied to a really old post but I'll just leave this here anyhow...


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Jamo33 said:


> Gorgeous.
> In other, more relevant to the thread news, it appears my excel plants spray down cause some of my buce and anubias leaves to rot and drop off...whilst the BBA help strong and never wavered. I truly hate this algae.


Excel spray is not very precise. You want to put Excel directly on the algae and not on the plant, a fine paint brush is much better for this and even then you can still get some plant melt. You don't want a long contact time on a plant(seconds not minutes) out of water especially with concentrated Excel.

It is safer to use an enclosed area(e.g. 500ml container upside down) inside your tank, greater concentration than the whole tank but still diluted Excel syringed in, instead of direct contact with plants which is then circulated around for a few minutes. @Deanna described and uses this method.

I just prune off leaves/stems with BBA, the parts of the plant that allow it to grow on them are not healthy(most not worth saving) to begin with.

It is really frustrating to get any sort of algae on Anubias or Bucephalandra as they grow so slowly, it hurts have to trim leaves that take months to grow but its still best for the plant. Even hair algae which is easily killed by general tank Excel is still difficult to remove even when dead. It takes weeks not days to completely remove dead Algae even with Otos, Shrimp, snails etc.

I got BBA in my old scape on some plants and on wood mostly. Painting the wood was highly effective, however a little spilled onto the neighbouring plants and melted them or created white spots.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Either method gets glut on the surface you want it, for myself much is determined by whether you have a bushel of BBA infected wood and plants or a small amount that is easy to get to. As a former house painter I'd use a brush for trim and cutting in walls and a sprayer for wide areas, I kind of consider the same applies here. I've pulled smaller Anubias and just dipped them in a cup of the stuff. The biggest difference between this and paint is that you can't really see a clear liquid on a wet plant -no matter the means of application. You don't want to miss any, but you don't want to overdo it either. I think we can all agree that rinsing and contact time are more important than what method was used to get the liquid on the infected area.


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## Leeatl (Aug 8, 2015)

I have used both H2O2 and Excel/glut to kill BBA , but have found H2O2 to be more effective and much cheaper . I just turn off the filters , use syringe to spot treat , wait 10-15 mins then restart filters . Next day algae in treated areas is either dead or red on the way to dead and fish and plants are never harmed . I have also taken wood or rocks with affected areas or plants ,out and syringed H2O2 onto affected spots . Wait a few mins and return to tank . Same results .Just a couple ways I picked up on here probably....lol


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

cl3537 said:


> It is safer to use an enclosed area(e.g. 500ml container upside down) inside your tank, greater concentration than the whole tank but still diluted Excel syringed in, instead of direct contact with plants which is then circulated around for a few minutes. @Deanna described and uses this method.


Actually, I use H2O2 in this isolation chamber since H2O2 kills more types of algae and fauna are protected, being outside of the chamber. However, I do occasionally use ~2ml/gal of Excel in a whole-tank treatment of red algae procedure.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Deanna said:


> Actually, I use H2O2 in this isolation chamber since H2O2 kills more types of algae and fauna are protected, being outside of the chamber. However, I do occasionally use ~2ml/gal of Excel in a whole-tank treatment of red algae procedure.


Oops my bad H2O2 in the vortex only but it can be done with Excel as well or both.
I use your whole tank Excel treatment at 1.5ml/gal and it has worked very well the two times I have used it.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

cl3537 said:


> Oops my bad H2O2 in the vortex only but it can be done with Excel as well or both.
> 
> I use your whole tank Excel treatment at 1.5ml/gal and it has worked very well the two times I have used it.




Yeah, don’t think I would take the chance to use either method with my Discus. 


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> Yeah, don’t think I would take the chance to use either method with my Discus.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Yes neither would I, with sensitive fish, much better to take all the plants and hardscape out of the tank and treat then in plastic tub instead.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

discus juveniles didn't pan out- he had oversold. disappointing.


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## evil8 (Aug 7, 2018)

Discusluv said:


> No more BBA
> Yippee!
> ~Okay, for now- but, I am going to stay positive.


Very nice! 

I trimmed out all the plant/leaves that were covered in BBA. I totally removed the completely covered Crypt Parva. I have it in a bucket trying to think about how i can salvage some of it and where I'd put it if I can. I have a few rocks I need to pull out and clean too. The plants all still looking ok a week in. Today I took out a java fern and another that looks similar, but has roots like a sword, put them in the (no CO2 - low light) tank upstairs. In their place I added a new bunch of Vallisneria Spiralis Leopard in the background and some Bacopa Australia in the foreground.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

After taking out the substrate, replacing a majority of the plants, and cleaning all surface areas with Excel, I had about 4 weeks of no BBA. It was perfect. 
But, all good things come to an end because the problem I had ( and have) is still there.

First, it grew on intake and outtakes of filter and air stone. I didnt panic. I remembered ( I think it was from the wise Mr. @Ken Keating) that I could contain it by a routine maintenance of Excel in a spray bottle. I did this once around a month ago and it didnt return on these surfaces. But...

It grew- all at once- up the corners of the silicone--- and quick! I did the same. Sprayed with excel and was gone in days. Didnt come back on these areas. 

A couple days ago noticed it growing on tips of a java moss leaf- took leaf off and tossed. 

So, this is the new plan. i doubt it will ever go away in my tank because of the particular fire-storm this tank and inhabitants have to offer. 
But, going forward, I have a slow and steady plan of attack to keep it under control. Thanks to all that were helpful.


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## evil8 (Aug 7, 2018)

Discusluv said:


> I have a slow and steady plan of attack to keep it under control.


Yeah, I totally get this. I never really got it completely all out of the tank yet, but where I've cleaned it off it's only ever come back in the silicone corners. I think it's just going to be a constant battle for the foreseeable future.


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## Crisis64 (Apr 22, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Spray the wood, plants, anything you want to keep with glut while out of the water. I really think that'll get you out of the woods. I wouldn't destroy perfectly good driftwood or rocks, personally. Good luck and keep us posted!


Sorry I'm new here, I have a little BBA, & want to deal with it, but what is glut?


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## Crisis64 (Apr 22, 2017)

Hello All, excellent BBA discussion here, but I was wondering if anyone ever tried a Turf Algae Scrubber, I used to use them on saltwater tanks I had, & they work wonders on controlling nuisance algae.
I'm going to try this on my planted tank to see what happens, just need the time to build it.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

I have used a turf scrubber on marine and also loved it. But the downside I see to using one in a planted tank is that the algae you are growing and harvesting would take up the fertilizers we are trying to add. @Crisis64, glut is glutaraldehyde, the active ingredient in Excel, CO2 Booster and so forth.


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## Crisis64 (Apr 22, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> I have used a turf scrubber on marine and also loved it. But the downside I see to using one in a planted tank is that the algae you are growing and harvesting would take up the fertilizers we are trying to add. @Crisis64, glut is glutaraldehyde, the active ingredient in Excel, CO2 Booster and so forth.


Good Point @Blue Ridge Reef, so maybe not a good option then, I also remember reading somewhere,(not sure where) but is glutaraldehyde a good alternative to flourish excel(too expensive)


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

I'm not an advocate of using Met5 or any of the alternatives if not experienced with safe chemical handling. I certainly don't consider myself as such, and Excel is pretty cheap for how little you use. I thought this article was a tad alarmist when it came out, but I don't discount one bit of her thoughts on using "real" glut: https://www.sunkengardens.net/blog/...-liquid-co2-and-the-dangers-of-glutaraldehyde


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> I have used a turf scrubber on marine and also loved it. But the downside I see to using one in a planted tank is that the algae you are growing and harvesting would take up the fertilizers we are trying to add. @Crisis64, glut is glutaraldehyde, the active ingredient in Excel, CO2 Booster and so forth.



I'll pay for extra ferts and CO2 if it helps keep BBA out of my tank. Besides, I'm feeding the algae now, just doing in the tank instead of on a scrubber.


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## millerwilliams611 (Jul 15, 2020)

Hello you can get it with me at a good rate


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