# another BBA thread, using pressurized co2



## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Are new leaves developing BBA or do you find it showing up in new places? I've come to realize that you can somewhat arrest algae but its really hard to eliminate existing algae without doing something drastic to them (i.e. spot dosing directly with h2o2 and/or excel) or to the tank (one-two algae punch). The latter is pretty extreme and I'm not sure I would recommend it unless you're desperate and even then, you'd have to be prepared to lose some plants and/or livestock in the process.

So the other thing is if you see BBA popping up on new leaves, then the thought is that there's still some sort of deficiency happening as the healthy leaves should somewhat resist it. Perhaps even more fertilizer? This is even more important if you decide to not limit your photoperiod anymore. You're right in not limiting light if you dose and use pressurized co2 but does your dosing regimen limit then? PPS-Pro is based on limiting I think. And your stated levels (Macros: N-7.5ppm P-1.3ppm K-4.27ppm) seem like his EI solution, not PPS-Pro. Consider the EI method or simulating it with even more dosing. Do you dose micro fertilizers? 

As for your co2 being high, do you agitate the surface of your water? If you don't, then you may be hitting your co2 limit before its at optimal. You can agitate, allow proper o2 gas-in, and give your fish a more comfortable buffer against running out of air. See this: http://www.prirodni-akvarium.cz/en/index.php?id=en_co2ph or this http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/co2-ph-level-in-planted-tank.26559/ for Tom's similar tests.

Otherwise, if the BBA is not expanding, then you're doing something right. Just trim off bad leaves and wait it out perhaps.


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## Stone454 (Jun 1, 2013)

I would do the one two punch look it up here on site, I would remove your fish though, I had some hard to get rid of BBA, and slowly but surely it was taking my tank over first a few plants, then a few more, then the drift wood, the filter outlet,then even on the glass. I was spot treating with h2o2 and excel and hard as I was trying I was falling behind. I did notice that my canister filter outflow tube was gummed up pretty bad and the flow really sucked, that was somehting I didn't notice because I had added a Hob for extra flow. I was about to just scrap my tank and start over. I refused and decided on the 1-2 punch, I removed my fish though I did not want to stress them or worse and I went to the extreme. I went with more h202 than suggested then followed up with excel. I believe a lot of my problem was from my flow on my canister filter go really crappy and I fed my fish way too much I will admit this. I changed my whole routine with this tank, it was the only one I had this problem with, it does have the best lighting so go figure I cut the photo period to 7 hours and have a shorter mid day burst with all the lights on for 3, I feed the fish 2 times a day but very sparingly and scoop out any extra, i do basically a double dose of excel daily, when I did the one two punch I completely cleaned out my canister filter and even soaked the tubes in h202 for an hour, I bought some start right to aid in re-establishing my bio-filter. It has been almost 2 weeks since I did this and so far I have not seen any BBA, and My plants are doing good. The only thing that did not make it was my fissidens/javamoss. Most of my problem seems to have been poor filtration, and feeding the fish too much.As far as using phosgaurd I have seen people say they have used it with success and the ones who disagree, I have some one hand if my bba comes back I will answer this question for myself and not listen to what someone who has never tried/done it says. I did read that someone on here killed there BBA without knowing or trying too, while treating a tank for ich with paragaurd. I would be willing to try anything before admitting defeat though.


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## jonathan (Nov 29, 2012)

I'm not an expert on algae or C02, but I want to echo something ipkiss was talking about. I've noticed I can turn my co2 up to an uncountable bps and light light yellow drop checker on 29 gallons if enough surface agitation is allowed. Your CO2 may not have been as high as you can get it.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

Increasing CO2 levels is good advice. However, maintaining constant levels is equally, if not more, important. A common theme among BBA infestations are fluctuating CO2 levels. Ensure even flow distribution in the water column. Adjust the level per Tom's recommendation. This is the important part...leave it at the same level! Turn on CO2 an hour or so before and after the photoperiod. Water changes, diffuser changes, altering flow patterns, running out of CO2, large changes in biomass among many other things cause CO2 levels to fluctuate. Eliminate as many of these issues as possible.

Once the CO2 level is stable direct efforts to removing as much as possible manually and spot treating the rest with excel or peroxide.


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## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

What are the water params? You test it? Not that it matters much but gives a hint on what's going on. The main params involved in CO2 levels are your pH and kH. Try to lower your kH. If RO water is available, use that. Otherwise try to lower kH using peat or black water extract. Humic acids lower kH in a natural way.

I've dealt with this nuisance before. Used RO water only and had a great planted tank experience with it. It's hard to have a planted tank with RO water only but reveals a lot of the plant needs. Had lethal doses of CO2 thrown at it. PO4 low and high and what not. The only thing it responded to was low kH. Once that got to 1-2dkH the algae started to become weak and whitish in appearance. Even lowered CO2 and it still died. In the end it was stuck to plastic spraybars but it stopped growing.

That worked for me given the fact that I was in total control of what went in the water.

You can give it a shot and see if it works for you as well. kH tests are pretty accurate and should not have problems in determining its level. It doesn't have a negative impact if you lower it. Other than making your pH unstable but I had 1 degree variations between night and day and everything was doing ok.


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## hisxlency (Jan 26, 2013)

great thread, im in the same boat. Cant figure out what to do.

Excuse the newbie questions, what KH? I have a test kit but for basics


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

This is one of those questions that brings about more questions than answers for me but what I can tell you from my experience is it's more complicated than just saying you have co2 issues. Whether it be too low of co2 or fluctuating co2 is not the only cause of BBA. 

I recently rescaped my tank and while the new Aquasoil was cycling there was no fish in the tank for the first month. What I did during this first month was run the co2 at a really high rate to hopefully deter the BBA from showing up in the first place. For the first 3 weeks I didn't see a single piece of BBA. My regulator is a very nice dual stage with top of the line components so the problem with the co2 being inconsistent or fluctuating is not something that happens with my setup. About a week after that I saw a few little tufts of BBA showing up on some wood so my first thought was how is this showing up after running the co2 as high as possible with no fear of harming any fish. 

So is not enough co2 or too much co2 causing BBA to appear? I would have to say that neither is the case in my situation. My plants are all growing very well and the first thing people say is look at your plants they will tell you when something is wrong. Well my plants look great and still there is BBA showing up. Granted the BBA is very few little tufts here and there it still makes me question what triggers it to appear.

After thinking about it some more I tend to believe that organics has more to do with the BBA showing up more than all the other causes that I have heard others mention. With that being said I'm really on top of my maintenance as I do 50%+ w/c every week and I'm constantly removing any dead or decaying leaves but there is still some organics whether they are in your filter or your substrate which is where I believe the biggest problem occurs as your substrate is essentially a big biological filter any way. My BBA tends to appear only on my driftwood so maybe there is more organics on the wood as they naturally decay.

I really think a good starting point for fighting BBA after you feel your co2 is dialed in with where it needs to be in comparison to your light is to do methodical maintenance. Do massive water changes and keep your filter material clean along with removing any decaying or dead leaves that will add to your dissolved organics in your tank. If your filter media is not clean it's adding to the organics rather than removing them. There needs to be more open discussion about BBA causes other than the same old discussion that you need to increase your co2 and it will help all of us in this hobby.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

hisxlency said:


> great thread, im in the same boat. Cant figure out what to do.
> 
> Excuse the newbie questions, what KH? I have a test kit but for basics


KH is for carbonate hardness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KH_(hardness) Practically, for our planted tanks it roughly represents the ability to buffer against ph changes. But more interestingly, it also gives us the ability to somewhat estimate (not accurately!) our co2 levels via the kh/ph/co2 chart 

API sells a kh test but if you do get this, be careful of the expiration date. Either the GH or the KH kit or both is very sensitive to expiration.


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## nanous (Mar 19, 2013)

I was mistaken, I am EI dosing not PPS-pro. 

As for constant co2, I was leaving it on 24/7 to keep it constant, not touching it for weeks except to turn it up and push the limit. Good surface agitation, co2 getting pushed from the outlet towards the inlet, lots of flow. I don't think this was a cause.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

Increasing organic loads can cause BBA. However, the simplistic assumption that this eliminates CO2 as a cause is erroneous.

BBA is found naturally in warm flowing water systems. Very similar to our aquariums. BBA among other algaes bloom due to environmental clues that conditions are correct for proliferation such as increased organics, temperature and photoperiod.

When organic matter such as leaves from deciduous trees begins to decompose the organic component in the water column increases. What do you suppose happens to the CO2 level? As we all know organics are broken down by bacteria. The respiratory byproduct of most bacteria is CO2. Hence during seasonal changes where organics are high so are the CO2 levels. This causes an alteration in CO2 levels which I believe is a stimulant for BBA spores to grow.

Clearly nutrients are not the cause for BBA outbreaks. Many hobbyist using EI, PPS and PMDD have no algae problems. The EI method would certainly eliminate nutrients as being the culprit since nutrients alone are non limiting. What's left? Light and CO2.

If we maintain non limiting nutrients and increase lighting then CO2 becomes the limiting factor. When this condition exists other forms of algae spread; BBA being the least problematic.

I don't subscribe to the theory that high CO2 levels alone eliminate BBA. Low tech tanks go years without BBA. Yet even in a low tech tank the CO2 levels have to remain stable to avoid BBA outbreaks. Increasing CO2 to high levels improves overall plant growth allowing the algae/plant completion to be tipped in the plants favor. Having the ability to increase CO2 levels usually indicates pressurized CO2 systems. These systems, generally, have the ability to maintain stable CO2 levels.

If we try to use DIY CO2 to obtain high CO2 levels BBA appears. In fact, from my experience that is the easiest way to farm BBA. The CO2 levels can be widely variable with these systems. Again causing fluctuations in CO2 levels signaling BBA to spread.


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## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

I want to correct something. Bacteria uses the C. Depending on what type of bacteria are we discussing here. Bacteria that breaks down organics, the one that eats dead tissue, releases C as a byproduct since it takes complex organic compounds and brakes them down. The bacteria that makes its own meal actually does the opposite. It will take in C to make sugars and enzymes to feed.

That's why organics in your aquarium cause algae blooms. But it's only half of the story. Let's say algae has enough C but it lacks other nutrients. Same Liebig's law applies to algae.

Now, what I observed in my own tank. This algae is indeed triggered by the presence of CO2. I've had it in two aquariums. The large one had the algae growing on almost anything. Substrate, spraybars, even the aquarium glass had tufts of the stuff growing on it.

The algae survived in almost any condition. High CO2, low CO2, high nutrients, low nutrients. The only thing that kept it from spreading was an overdose of organic carbon (EasyCarbo, Excel).

Since I was using only RO water, I had to remineralize. And I was also dosing baking soda so that I can keep the pH somewhat stable given the fact I was dosing so much CO2.

Once I stopped dosing baking soda the algae stopped spreading. It also had a positive effect on the plants. Once I got the plants growing like mad and doing better, the algae also started to weaken.

This behavior was noticed in a smaller tank for shrimp. I stopped dosing CO2. Although I was dosing little CO2 compared to the larger tank, I saw a decrease in the spread of this algae.

Now, getting back to organics. I never cleaned the large tank once. The gunk was building up in the substrate and filter and the plants were doing better than ever, the algae was in retreat.

Algae blooms in nature, are happening when temperature or light quantity changes. Organics will always be present be we still get algae blooms when leaves are not falling in the water. When transitioning from spring to summer.

My 2 cents on this. Cleaning excessively causes swings. Large water changes causes swings. Often water changes causes swings. The key is to eliminate swings.

Low tech tanks are very stable tanks, because there are no swings or there are fewer. The system compensates a water change made twice a month or even better, once a month.

Compare these changes to an earthquake. Can we survive one weekly? How about monthly?


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

danielt said:


> I want to correct something. Bacteria uses the C. Depending on what type of bacteria are we discussing here.


Thanks! I stand corrected. So the CO2 levels fall. However, increase or decrease, clearly organics do have an impact on CO2 levels.



danielt said:


> Once I stopped dosing baking soda the algae stopped spreading. It also had a positive effect on the plants.


I think the key item here is that it had a positive impact on plants. High KH levels will not cause BBA. I have perfectly clean tanks with a KH of 12. I have also used R/O and kept a KH of 1-2 without BBA. If you started to add baking soda again alone without ANY other changes I doubt you would see a BBA outbreak.



danielt said:


> Now, getting back to organics. I never cleaned the large tank once. The gunk was building up in the substrate and filter and the plants were doing better than ever, the algae was in retreat.


Healthy plants and stable CO2 levels can exist in a heavy organic load. My point was that organics do have an impact on CO2 levels.



danielt said:


> My 2 cents on this. Cleaning excessively causes swings. Large water changes causes swings. Often water changes causes swings. The key is to eliminate swings.


I agree completely. Yet it is all still related to CO2 levels fluctuating.


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## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

Fluctuating CO2 levels is as generic as "plants use light to make food". How large the fluctuations need to be? It's gas CO2 fluctuations alone that cause this algae to rear its ugly head? CO2 in water is as stable as a ping pong ball in a waterfall. The more I dug about this the more I was convinced that "stable CO2 levels" is just a statement used to get someone off your back 

Exactly as you said, with RO water a low kH was better. I used baking soda to get to a decent kH of 10dkH, I believe was my target. Reading on Ms. Walstad book I found that carbonates have little to do with plant growth. As there are plants that adapted to use carbonates as C source almost all of them will prefer CO2 over anything else. So I stopped adding baking soda. Lowered the frequency of my water changes and I was greeted with a nice surprise.

Further research on my part revealed why CO2 is hard to get at a stable level. The chemistry behind CO2 diffusion is more complex than is over simplified in the traditional texts about CO2 in the water.

As gas diffuses in the water, several reactions occur and these reactions are easier to understand as an equilibrium since they happen very fast and they are influenced by three components: pH, carbonates and temperature.

Long story short (and more simple): carbonates keep CO2 out of the water as it will take another form. 
Any form other than CO2 makes Carbon less accessible to plants. From my observation and this information I concluded that plants are affected and the algae thrives. Not necessarily because it can use carbonates as there is no information I could find to state that, I assumed plants lacking C being the factor that drives this alga's success.

I'm no scientist but I searched for answers why the alga went in retreat. Being the type of guy that questions "why?" when things do work 

Notice I haven't focused on other factors like light, ferts and everything else as I myself at some point saw an increase or decline on the alga's only by increasing and lowering carbonates.

Is this a cure? Don't think so. Should everybody switch to using only RO water? Hell no! I'm pitching in to fill in the gaps that annoyed me reading statements like "stable CO2", "increase PO4", "use EI", "start from scratch".

I hate seeing no one has a definite answer on this pest. It shows up when you thought you got everything setup. It doesn't even when you do all the donts people mention.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

To test a hypothesis we must be able to replicate results. What induces a BBA infestation? The easiest way to answer this is to farm BBA. What conditions does it require to multiply? The only way I have been able to induce production is through CO2 fluctuations. I'm not alone on that. Others have reported the same conclusions.

Clearly CO2 fluctuations plays an important role. Is that the only thing that causes it to spread? Probably not, but it is by FAR the most common. 

As you said “CO2 in water is as stable as a ping pong ball in a waterfall”. This is one of the reason so many people feel CO2 is being used as a cure all for BBA. How many ways can you think of to alter the CO2 level in water? Now apply those to real world examples and it’s no surprise hobbyist blame this algae on a list of various culprits. I don’t use the “excuse” of CO2 as the cause for BBA to get people off my back. To the contrary. I thoroughly enjoy debates on any subject. It happens to be a very good way for me to learn. Yet, I’ve seen no evidence to support other theories beyond supposition.



danielt said:


> Notice I haven't focused on other factors like light, ferts and everything else as I myself at some point saw an increase or decline on the alga's only by increasing and lowering carbonates.


What would happen if the plants you keep prefer low KH conditions? Healthier plants would mean less competition. Could the reduction be caused by the fact the plants themselves are now thriving or other factors affected by lowering KH? Remember, we have to look at all possible changes rather than the obvious.


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## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

I don't have a BBA infestation in the tank I don't run CO2 gas in. I do have it stuck on some wood but it's well trimmed by Amanos and it didn't spread on anything else. Light is provided by two T5HO 24W lamps 1X840 and 1X880. Tank is a 40L total volume.

Water is 100% RO remineralized with Calcium Chloride, Calcium Sulfate and Magnesium heptahydrate + trace minerals. No carbonates are added. Unfortunately my test kit is expired. Don't know what my params are. The digital pH meter shows a value of 8.4 whereas the source water without any treatment has a pH of close to 9.

The large planted tank I was speaking of before has been converted to SW.

This tank had CO2 added at a slow rate due to the shrimp and that caused BBA to appear on the wood and it was slowly spreading only on the wood. It stagnated after stopping CO2 addition.

There's also a personal suspicion that this algae might be transmitted from one tank to another via plant exchange. Of course, I don't have any proof to back that statement but it explains its selective way of affecting some tanks but not others in spite of similar conditions.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

Zorfox said:


> Thanks! I stand corrected. So the CO2 levels fall. However, increase or decrease, clearly organics do have an impact on CO2 levels.
> 
> 
> I think the key item here is that it had a positive impact on plants. High KH levels will not cause BBA. I have perfectly clean tanks with a KH of 12. I have also used R/O and kept a KH of 1-2 without BBA. If you started to add baking soda again alone without ANY other changes I doubt you would see a BBA outbreak.
> ...


So do you or do you not feel that organics is more a cause than the the levels of co2? 

So if the organics have an impact on the co2 levels you might think you have your co2 dialed in where it needs to be in conjunction to your lighting and everything might be fine until the dissolved organics start to rise then that would make me think that the organics are the cause of the BBA showing up. Instead I hear people over and over again telling people that they need more co2 which is not going to help them with anything if the dissolved organics are to root cause. Don't get me wrong there is plenty of people that have a hard time getting there co2 figured out and inject way too little and rely on things like bubble counters/drop checkers to tell them their co2 levels are where they should be because their bubble counter is at 1-2 bps which means nothing from system to system and the same goes for those that say their drop checker is green so they should be good. I eliminated both of those pieces of equipment from my tank some time ago as they are great for those just starting out with co2 but mean nothing to those that have been dosing co2 for any amount of time. Sometimes I feel like we have gone to far with the more is better mentality and instead it should not be about how much you do but how you do it.


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## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

From my observation, organics don't turn on/off this algae. The dirtier the tank I had it in the better the plants looked and the worse BBA looked.

I've broken the tank down once, in a fit caused by the algae. Deep siphoned the substrate as I had it on the substrate as well. Cleaned filter. No organics were present when I replanted. It bounced back in two weeks.

This proved to me the organics do not help either way. Just before tearing the tank down one last time I had Lindernia and others that grew outside of water flowering like crazy. I had doubled the dose of ferts and adding supplements of PO4 and Iron. The algae was present only on the spraybars because I didn't bothered to scrape it off them and had no critters to munch on it.

Not many believe me, the ones I told I ran full RO water said it's impossible. I had to show them pictures of the tank and they wouldn't believe me anyway. Said I was crazy


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

danielt said:


> From my observation, organics don't turn on/off this algae. The dirtier the tank I had it in the better the plants looked and the worse BBA looked.
> 
> I've broken the tank down once, in a fit caused by the algae. Deep siphoned the substrate as I had it on the substrate as well. Cleaned filter. No organics were present when I replanted. It bounced back in two weeks.
> 
> ...


I don't think it matters if you break down a tank or not the dissolved organics don't take long to show up especially if using old driftwood or substrate but I don't think that a tank that is really dirty results in no BBA. If you have a mature biological filter and a stable tank that is more important than a fresh new system. I have never seen BBA form in my water garden that is in direct sun and no co2 other than what is from nature. You would think a closed system with lots of huge koi putting waste in the system would have tons of dissolved organics in the system so maybe I'm contradicting myself but why wouldn't this type of system ever show any BBA? The one thing I do know is all the beautiful scapes we see whether it be from ADA, Tom, or any of the other BBA free systems that are out there the one thing that I'm sure of are these are meticulously maintained by constant w/c and removing of any and all dead or dying plant material so the chance for the organics to build up.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

ua hua said:


> So do you or do you not feel that organics is more a cause than the the levels of co2?


I do not feel organics is more of a cause. I believe the primary signal for BBA to reproduce is related to the CO2 level. I personally feel that fluctuations in CO2 levels is the key, not stable, high or low levels.



ua hua said:


> So if the organics have an impact on the co2 levels you might think you have your co2 dialed in where it needs to be in conjunction to your lighting and everything might be fine until the dissolved organics start to rise then that would make me think that the organics are the cause of the BBA showing up.


This is my point exactly. It would appear sudden heavy organic loads induced BBA. However, the root cause would be the changing CO2 level.

The same would hold true for many other situations. One may claim water changes cause BBA because they never changed water before. When they decided to do large changes twice a week BBA appeared. Obviously, CO2 levels would again be unstable. Many other situations affect CO2 levels leading to the false assumption condition A B or C causes BBA when A B and C all cause CO2 changes. The root cause remains the same.


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## nanous (Mar 19, 2013)

If instability of co2 causes bba, how do people get away with solenoids that turn off the supply in the absence of light? Co2 fluctuates in this system.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

Zorfox said:


> I do not feel organics is more of a cause. I believe the primary signal for BBA to reproduce is related to the CO2 level. I personally feel that fluctuations in CO2 levels is the key, not stable, high or low levels.
> 
> 
> This is my point exactly. It would appear sudden heavy organic loads induced BBA. However, the root cause would be the changing CO2 level.
> ...


I don't completely agree with this. How can you say that the heavy organics have no cause when in fact the organics do have an effect on the co2 levels? Wouldn't that make the root cause the organics as they are the changes in your system that started the ball rolling? If it was as simple as a minor change in co2 causing BBA to appear then I would think that those of us that had there co2 run out and couldn't fill it for a day or two would have BBA appear soon after since the co2 was not present for a few days. Like I mentioned earlier a lot of people have there co2 cranked as high as possible without harming their livestock yet still are plagued with BBA. Now if you have a high end regulator as I do then the amount of co2 being put into the system shouldn't fluctuate at all unless the system is overloaded with heavy organics that cause a drop in the ppm of co2 being dissolved. I understand that you may need to adjust your co2 according to the amount of plant mass/growth but when one has their co2 running at a high enough rate and still keeping it safe for their fish then telling them they need more co2 is not always the answer. I still think the one thing the people that have no problem with BBA have in common is being consistent with their maintenance and keeping as clean/sterile system as possible.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

ua hua said:


> How can you say that the heavy organics have no cause when in fact the organics do have an effect on the co2 levels?


Sorry, apparently I wasn't very clear. I have a bad habit of that. Organics does have a role. My point is that the CO2 changes caused from them is what plays a role in BBA proliferation. 


ua hua said:


> Wouldn't that make the root cause the organics as they are the changes in your system that started the ball rolling?


Not at all. The root of a problem can only be found after breaking down larger components into smaller ones such as the complex break down of organics.

To say organics would be the root of the problem is akin to saying the cause of BBA proliferation is starting a planted tank. Although, that statement is obviously true it doesn't address the root cause.


ua hua said:


> If it was as simple as a minor change in co2 causing BBA to appear then I would think that those of us that had there co2 run out and couldn't fill it for a day or two would have BBA appear soon after since the co2 was not present for a few days.


This can induce BBA spores to grow. Happens all the time.




ua hua said:


> ...a lot of people have there co2 cranked as high as possible without harming their livestock yet still are plagued with BBA. Now if you have a high end regulator as I do then the amount of co2 being put into the system shouldn't fluctuate at all unless the system is overloaded with heavy organics that cause a drop in the ppm of co2 being dissolved...


If only this statment were true we would see far less BBA. The truth is CO2 levels fluctuate minute to minute. There are many causes for CO2 changes, organics only being one; temperature, PH, hardness, trimming, poor plant health, addition or subtraction of livestock, water flow, ambient CO2 levels, CO2 delivery devices, water changes and the list goes on. Hobbyist cannot measure CO2 levels with any degree of certainty and certainly not fast enough to monitor minor rapid fluctuations. I think this leads to an assumption "my CO2 levels are great because I have good equipment and a yellow drop checker". In reality, maintaining stable and accurate CO2 levels can be like trying to balance a ball bearing on the back of a spoon in a moving vehichle. It's not an easy task and since we have the inability to monitor it accuratley enough we have to be alert for things that suggest CO2 problems, BBA being one of them.

When we do see CO2 related issues we cannot simply make sure our regulator is bubbling at the same rate. As stated, there are a host of things that can alter CO2 levels.



ua hua said:


> I still think the one thing the people that have no problem with BBA have in common is being consistent with their maintenance and keeping as clean/sterile system as possible.


Agreed. Stability is the key to succsess. More importantly, being able to recognize and respond to small changes before they become problems.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

What every tank has in common is organics and filtration. The filtration can be in many forms of course: Plants/BB/Mechanical/Chemical.

What's important this that the organics are removed or processed by the setup. If there not then you have algae, most notably BBA. Co2 certainly helps in many setups, but why is it effective. It simply increases uptake. Every tank has different requirements so if you try to figure it out your most likely going to fail. The key is just to overkill and be redundant on removing waste and/or processing the breakdown. 

If you look at a new tank, many get algae since there isn't really much growth or a mature biofilter so carbon/WC/Purigen is used as a bridge to a mature biofilter. Older tanks get algae from the build-up of organic waste that doesn't get processed. 

Yes, you need good maintenance skills/habits on many tanks if you don't want to compromise what you can grow. There's always lowlight setups that don't require much, but a non-limited setup usually requires good maintenance habits. This is a big reason why so many people here get completely different results when it seems their tanks are so similar.


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## nanous (Mar 19, 2013)

*ok*

so.....



Zorfox said:


> Agreed. Stability is the key to succsess. More importantly, being able to recognize and respond to small changes before they become problems.





nanous said:


> If instability of co2 causes bba, how do people get away with solenoids that turn off the supply in the absence of light? Co2 fluctuates in this system.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Nanous, 

Snapping the conversation back to YOUR question .. the theory is fluctuating co2 is a concern only when the light is on. I bet you're thinking I'm pulling this stuff out of thin air but I promise you I'm not. 

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/4290-black-beard-algae-how-to-effectively-eliminate/page2 (around the middle of the page)

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/7843-Bba-and-co2


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## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

Organic mulm doesn't have anything to do with the proliferation of this particular algae.

Why? because the CO2 emanated from it's decay is more constant than the one from your professional equipment. It does not fluctuate, it does not help the algae in any way.

If I were to make an observation based on organic buildup would be that a tank which is excessively clean is worse than a tank with organics in it.


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## nanous (Mar 19, 2013)

ipkiss said:


> Nanous,
> 
> Snapping the conversation back to YOUR question .. the theory is fluctuating co2 is a concern only when the light is on. I bet you're thinking I'm pulling this stuff out of thin air but I promise you I'm not.
> 
> ...


thank you mr ipkiss!

so, pretty much still at square one here. I am dosing, have adequate, stable co2, and mulm doesn't seem to be a factor.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

ipkiss said:


> Nanous,
> 
> Snapping the conversation back to YOUR question .. the theory is fluctuating co2 is a concern only when the light is on. I bet you're thinking I'm pulling this stuff out of thin air but I promise you I'm not.
> 
> ...


So what happens when you do a water change? Are you saying the water from most taps has the same amount of co2 as the water in most pressurized tanks. I don't know about you, but I don't have midnight water change parties. :icon_bigg


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Houseofcards, 

You bring up an interesting point! Maybe that's a possible point where our fluctuation comes in! No, but seriously, I'm with you guys on the co2 is probably not the only thing here. I'm just trying to make sure nanous doesn't go worrying about the nighttime shut off business. 

Nanous, houseofcards, I think when people mention the "fluctuating co2" point , it's more applied for that slacker diy co2 (like I used to get lazy, let my one bottle run down, then mix some new stuff up and clearly not someone who religiously does the 5 bottle rotation) where you have no sense of stability over the course of days. When someone says I got pressurized, then we seem to lay off a little. Notice, I actually never addressed the "fluctuating co2" in my first reply because I saw pressurized being mentioned. I did, however, suspect insufficient co2. Thats why I got into getting more agitation in, pumping the co2 a bit more, etc. I know Tom will probably come close to guaranteeing that its not enough co2 but since I've never studied algae like he does, I'll go with suspicion since it makes a lot of sense to the hobbyist like me. There's all sorts of issues with not being able to measure it for one and then there's issues with flow. Can you truly see where your water is flowing in a fully populated tank? There's probably all sorts of eddies and pockets created by various hardscape and plants. I doubt anyone wants to put a dye in their established tank to test and have to worry about removing it. I forgot to ask, nanous, would you consider using a reactor as your next test? I hear they're more efficient and I'm about to personally try that too. 

I'm sort of where nanous is right now, I do pressurized co2 with a diffuser, I have decent light (perhaps not enough as my plants grow significantly better in the top half of the tank), and I have BBA sneaking in now here and there. But I also recognize that my tank is too much in a state of flux for me to really address in a sentence why. I'm adding plants, some new plants are melting, my tank is a jungle, flow is not right, I'm still trying to get my co2 "sufficient," etc. All of this is an experiment that has been happening over the course of months. I've been forcing myself to be patient and I try not to change more than one thing at a time and then I wait a couple weeks -- but I'll confirm one thing. Before I went pressurized and full EI, I had TONS of BBA... thick GLOBS and tufts but now I'm just fighting the occasional sneak in. So I've decided that my current battle line is "sufficient" co2. Hence I've chosen my next step to introduce a reactor -- then I'll have to inspect flow. I believe I'm also more accepting of having some algae since it's not exactly a show tank and I treat it like weeds in my garden -- as in, I tolerate some. It really helps with the frustration and patience part.

While co2 may not be the whole story, clearly it's a big part since most before me with more experience seem to look at it. If you're going to try get rid of limiting nutrients with EI, why wouldn't you strive to get rid of limiting co2 (or fluctuating) as you're trying to reduce your variables? 

Perhaps I used a bad choice of a word when I said 'theory,' I didn't really mean scientific theory. I meant the normal meaning of theory. So how about I steal from Pirates of the Caribbean and paraphrase and say "it's not really a code, more like a guideline really... " Not to meant to be taken as a hard point. Because clearly, if all these things were really proven, we wouldn't have this long thread. 

Houseofcards, (Nanous, this one I'm pulling out of thin air ) I'd also speculate that when you water change, if you're injecting efficiently, I'd say it recovers fast enough. I don't know how you water change but I do the standard 50% and the drop checker never realizes that its missing half of its co2. I realize drop checkers are notoriously slow to respond but that also points to the idea that the recovery is fairly fast. Since I don't have a co2 meter to test this, and like you, I'm not inquisitive enough to yet test the ph/kh every 10 minutes to check recovery, I'll let it slide that recovery was "fast enough." Interestingly, a lot of my water changes do happen close to midnight!  By the time I'm done procrastinating and finally get to it, it's late.

But through all this, yes, I would not discount that organics would cause issues too. I recall reading that algae spores in general get triggered from ammonia swings so if you're not cleaning out your filters, if you have bad flow in some spots, then perhaps you have pockets of issues. So nanous, you're not at square one. Instead of selectively taking the arguments of each side and using them to cancel each other in your situation, I would eye BOTH with suspicion with regards to YOUR tank. I would start with how do you KNOW you have adequate co2? I would've hoped that you realize now from all the posts in your thread you should at least have some questions about that. Secondly, I wouldn't disregard the mulm (if that's what you're referring to the extra organics). Please continue to experiment with patience and hopefully you can add your results to our "hive" and improve what we can tell people.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

nanous said:


> so.....


Sorry nanous. I hate it when I'm rude and don't even realize it. I missed one of your earlier posts asking essentially this same question. 



nanous said:


> If instability of co2 causes bba, how do people get away with solenoids that turn off the supply in the absence of light? Co2 fluctuates in this system.


CO2 is utilized by plants and most algae during photoperiods. During dark periods the chemical reactions that convert CO2 into carbohydrates ceases. In fact, plants release CO2 during dark periods. So the CO2 levels will have little impact on plants and algae during a dark period.

Important to note. One problem that seems to plague many people who inject CO2 is achieving the target CO2 level in a timely manner and maintaining it. Many hobbyist that use solenoids experience fluctuating CO2 levels during the photoperiod, which is when we WANT it stable. Below are two graphs Tom Barr has used to illustrate this problem.

Notice the stable peak during the photoperiod in the first graph as opposed to the constant increase and decrease in the second?

Proper CO2 delivery









Improper CO2 delivery









To achieve stable CO2 levels we must also provide adequate degassing of the CO2. Poor surface agitation decreases degassing and more importantly provides lower O2 levels making the CO2 toxic to fauna. Surface scum is another concern that shouldn't be ignored.

To understand why stable CO2 levels are important to plants research Rubisco. This is an enzyme used to convert CO2. It can take days or weeks to produce adequate amounts of this enzyme. It also is very "expensive" for the plants to manufacture. The amount of rubisco that plants maintain is directly related to CO2 levels present. So imagine what would happen if the CO2 levels continually change.


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## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

How do I know I've hit the first chart and not the second? Throwing in charts does not help. Is there a process a mere mortal can follow so that stable CO2 levels are achieved? Or do we need to poke around months on end until we think we figured it out?

Is this algae using CO2? Because I'm puzzled about this CO2 stable level. Other explanation than plants doing fine outcompetes algae I couldn't find. If it feeds on CO2 I don't see how keeping stable levels kills it.

I know why stable levels are important, not to the algae but to the plants. However, it will also help BBA. Wouldn't it?

I'm just curious if there's a method that works to achieve correct CO2 levels. Some process you follow and at the end of it you're sure that light and CO2 are dialed in and just wait for the algae to die.

Most people would be ok with it being off the plants. I would have no problem if the algae would make a party on the glass pane but leave the plants alone 

At some point when I was defeated I figured this algae is a good teacher. Made me read up on a lot of things trying to understand how it works.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Danielt, 

Those charts are couple of my favorite charts to refer to when telling someone to push even MOAR co2 into their tank and one of the threads it comes from is this one .. 

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/co2-ph-level-in-planted-tank.26559/

But usually, it's more about saving the fish while injecting. I guess it applies here in trying to get the maximum amount in.

There's another link that goes into more glorious detail. 
http://www.prirodni-akvarium.cz/en/index.php?id=en_co2ph


Basically, you'd have to do what houseofcards loathes and measure your kh/ph constantly over the period of injection -- like per 10, 20, 30 minutes or whatever interval and graph it. OR you can beg someone who has a meter to lend one to you.

Otherwise, the mere mortal (myself included) can take the words of those who've done the work before them and agitate, flow, and inject! Watch your fish and wait two weeks to see if you notice anything. I don't think you can expect the algae to "die off" like it does with the one-two algae punch since co2 and light isn't going to outright kill the algae, but if your algae is NOT progressing, I'd call it progress! (cheesy play on words intended )


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

ipkiss said:


> ...Basically, you'd have to do what houseofcards loathes and measure your kh/ph constantly over the period of injection..


Yes I do loathe it so, you are right. 

Reading this thread people seem to be still very confused on how co2 eliminates algae. As you pointed out it's not going to kill it outright. Do people realize why it works sometimes. For me it all points to the processing of organics in one way or another. If you put high light in a plant-less tank and blast it with co2 are you not going to get algae? The point is high co2 or stable co2 in itself is not going to cure BBA in many setups.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Nanous, cover your ears!  Notice he said "many" setups, NOT all!!

Houseofcards, true, but you don't want Nanous to run with that statement and go, well, I don't have to worry about my co2 then. Whether its direct or indirect, I suspect that there must be some funky correlation because so many people attribute BBA to co2 issues. I'd say check that, do what we try to achieve as best practices, AND more.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

danielt said:


> How do I know I've hit the first chart and not the second? Throwing in charts does not help. Is there a process a mere mortal can follow so that stable CO2 levels are achieved? Or do we need to poke around months on end until we think we figured it out?


Actually, for mere mortals like myself, charts help me visualize this concept. Balancing accurate delivery methods and surface agitation is the key IMO. Testing water multiple times throughout the photoperiod will give a better representation of levels. A PH/KH chart can be used to spot the trends whether you use electronic or chemical methods. 



danielt said:


> Is this algae using CO2? Because I'm puzzled about this CO2 stable level. Other explanation than plants doing fine outcompetes algae I couldn't find. If it feeds on CO2 I don't see how keeping stable levels kills it.


Yes BBA uses CO2. The difference between plants and algae is the time required to adapt to changing levels. Algae also have very low CO2 demand. Algae can adapt quickly where plants cannot. From a survival perspective it makes sense that algaes would be stimulated to REPRODUCE, not simply exist, when CO2 levels are unstable. It's a condition where algae can outcompete for resources. 

Here is a great post on this subject by Tom (an oldie but a goodie). No need repeating it.


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## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

kH doesn't go away. That's why you can measure kH and not CO2. Unless there's something in the tank which consumes kH it's ok if you just monitor pH.

And no, bacteria does not consume kH when there's plenty of CO2 around, neither the plants will. Not in an amount that would matter.

I'm just asking questions which went unanswered in my searches. I don't have a BBA problem right now. I had it in the past, got rid of it and just share my observations.

What you can do, is get rid of one of the values. Bring kH down to 0. That way you will get something interesting. But I will leave it up to the ones using charts to figure out this one. It's out there, on the interwebs 

I've given a shot at the ukaps link and stopped reading when people referred to the kH/pH/CO2 chart to figure out the CO2 concentration. In my opinion, it's not useful and it's misleading.

All the other parts make sense. Without accurate reading of CO2 concentration the charts those people use are meaningless and could be far from the actual reading. However, a constant reading rather than a reading which goes like a mountain is better than no reading at all 

Get your kH to 0 and work from there. I did that by using only RO water. After the switch you can play and observe what works and what doesn't. Using tap water and not knowing where you are with your kH/gH/pH is useless.

About monitoring pH, I left my pH controller do only monitoring so I was looking at pH all the time.

Stop using pH controllers as CO2 usage is dependent on light rather than pH. I would pay money for a pH monitor but not for controlling but showing how photosynthesis works during the day. A pH data logger would be king.

@Zorfox

"I know why stable levels are important, not to the algae but to the plants."

This was the hint I somewhat have a clue how all this "CO2 stable" thingy works 

"accurate delivery methods": When I was using a reactor I noticed something interesting. The quantity of gas I was pumping in it accumulated a bit. It led me to believe it's not crucial to have accurate equipment when all that gas accumulates in the reactor. It was not fizzing out on the spraybar because it was somewhat balanced. My take on accurate delivery methods


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Zorfox, thanks for the post.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Zorfox said:


> To test a hypothesis we must be able to replicate results. What induces a BBA infestation? The easiest way to answer this is to farm BBA. What conditions does it require to multiply? *The only way I have been able to induce production is through CO2 fluctuations.* I'm not alone on that. Others have reported the same conclusions...


.

Can I see your notes on that? Did you do that in a controlled lab environment?

Again, the elevation of stable co2 as the cure all. Nothing to do with plant/mass organic levels/COD, light or anything else. So if I took a lightly planted tank, filled it heavily with fish/feed robustly and used strong light I'm not going to get BBA/algae as long as the co2 is good and plenty. But if I took a lightly stocked tank with lots of plants, light fish/light feeding and I do one too many water changes causing co2 to fluctuate, look out BBA explosion.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

houseofcards said:


> .
> 
> Can I see your notes on that? Did you do that in a controlled lab environment?


No lab environment. Just a hobbyist's observations and wacky tinkering which is after all a hobby. lol

Before I knew anything about BBA at all I had a problem with it in one of those tanks. It was a non CO2 tank that had very little to no algae. No BBA at all that I could see. I decided to try DIY CO2. Within a month I had BBA popping up everywhere. I had changed nothing except the CO2. In researching the cause, CO2 was the most common culprit. So the answer seemed simple. I stopped the CO2. BBA quit spreading. 

I'm from a medical background. In that area, everything in practice has been studied to death to ensure appropriate outcomes. This happens to be a hobby where large scale studies are not feasible. The only true scientific studies are ones that correlate to the hobby. I resorted to reading academic papers from various disciplines to learn more. 

Since this seemed to be a heavily debated subject I decided to try a few things myself. In regards to organics I first tried adding ammonia to a stable CO2 injected tank. I did get a response but it was green algae no BBA. I switched to tubifex worms and crushed planted trimmings. Essentially, the same although staghorn also appeared when using those materials. Still no BBA. Increasing lights...green green and green.

Altering powerheads reducing/increasing surface agitation did indeed stimulate BBA although not as effective as DIY CO2. So that told me either the CO2 or O2 changes were to blame. Having access to oxygen i decided to vary the levels directly. I set a concentrator up to turn on and off throughout the photoperiod. Nothing at all happened. I changed this to run for a few days and stop for a few. Nothing.

The only way I could induce BBA was to directly cause CO2 fluctuations. I'm open to suggestions on other means. I personally have not found another. Everything I've tried induced green algaes to a point that one would have certainly thought BBA was the least of their worries. I'm sure some of the methods could have eventually led to BBA. However, the other algaes were far more prolific.


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## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

houseofcards said:


> .
> Again, the elevation of stable co2 as the cure all. Nothing to do with plant/mass organic levels/COD, light or anything else. So if I took a lightly planted tank, filled it heavily with fish/feed robustly and used strong light I'm not going to get BBA/algae as long as the co2 is good and plenty. But if I took a lightly stocked tank with lots of plants, light fish/light feeding and I do one too many water changes causing co2 to fluctuate, look out BBA explosion.


There is no correlation between livestock and BBA. The only thing that pops up is plant growth. If the plants are doing fine, no BBA grows or spreads.

How it appears in your tank, from my point of view, it's still debatable. I'll stick to my theory of getting contaminated with this algae. If you start a tank from scratch, put plants in it that have been treated in hydrogen peroxide or excel and play jump around with the CO2 you still don't get it. But I did not make any experiments and have no proof. It remains just as theory.

When I tear down the old shrimp tank I'll play around although it needs a good scrubbing since I already got it in it.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

danielt said:


> T*here is no correlation between livestock and BBA. The only thing that pops up is plant growth. If the plants are doing fine, no BBA grows or spreads.*


So there's no correlation between livestock and BBA. So feeding, waste, light has nothing to do with it. It's just plants. O.K. So what if I don't want a tank full of plants, what if I have a scape with alot of negative space and it's not wall to wall plants. How would I control BBA?


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## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

There is no BBA in a saltwater aquarium 

See? I can move the discussion wherever I want that pleases me.


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## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

I think what houseofcards is pointing out is simply CO2 does not kill the algae. Im pretty sure high light + no plants + CO2 ur going to be playing Harvest Moon: Algae Edition. I always viewed the topic as stable and sufficient CO2 levels provide a competition free environment for multiple species of plants, which thereby provides a plant favored environment and in turn fights algae. Hence the idea of growing healthy plants, and focusing on plants not killing algae. Isn't that why we all got into the hobby anyways?


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

puopg said:


> I think what houseofcards is pointing out is simply CO2 does not kill the algae. Im pretty sure high light + no plants + CO2 ur going to be playing Harvest Moon: Algae Edition. I always viewed the topic as stable and sufficient CO2 levels provide a competition free environment for multiple species of plants, which thereby provides a plant favored environment and in turn fights algae. Hence the idea of growing healthy plants, and focusing on plants not killing algae. Isn't that why we all got into the hobby anyways?


In a nutshell...well put.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

puopg said:


> I think what houseofcards is pointing out is simply CO2 does not kill the algae. Im pretty sure high light + no plants + CO2 ur going to be playing Harvest Moon: Algae Edition. I always viewed the topic as stable and sufficient CO2 levels provide a competition free environment for multiple species of plants, which thereby provides a plant favored environment and in turn fights algae. Hence the idea of growing healthy plants, and focusing on plants not killing algae. Isn't that why we all got into the hobby anyways?


Ok so what if you have healthy plants and still get BBA popping up on the driftwood? What is the reason for this when your healthy plants fail to keep BBA away? If your co2 was not at sufficient levels then wouldn't your plants show signs of it? You can't just say that if you have BBA your co2 is insufficient when all other signs point to it being at good levels. I know that my plants all look really healthy and are growing like the weeds they are yet I still have places on driftwood that have BBA. I understand telling someone that is new to the hobby that is having BBA problems to focus on the co2. But for someone like myself that has been involved in this hobby for many years and has my co2 at levels that are sufficient to grow many different kinds of plants without any other algae issues other than BBA. What is your theory for the cause of BBA in a system like mine?


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Ua hua, 

So let's see if we can speculate your situation a little. Sorry Nanous, this might be a thread hijack or it might help you, and by extension, us all. You suspect something organic is triggering yours, and others suggest something co2. I personally wouldn't rule out both like I was telling Nanous since I'm not an expert. There's one thing that correlates both in my mind and that is water flow. Assuming this is on your 90 gallon, where is it happening on the driftwood -- as in topside? underside? a corner? Clearly, you have a dual stage rig so your pressurized is top notch and your plants a flourishing so that suggests you have enough, and you have a koralia (or more) so you have good flow throughout the tank but what about the very spot that your BBA is sneaking in on? While I hate to suggest that you ruin your scape for our experimentation, what if you rotated your driftwood somehow so that you move the dirty spot where there's obviously more flow (like directly in front of the path of the koralia) and you put a clean spot where the dirty spot was? If you're afraid of blowing BBA spores all over the place, what if you cleaned it off first and see if it comes back in the site of more flow? That way, we can possibly narrow it down to the driftwood itself being favorable or will a high co2, high flow situation would suppress it somewhat.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

puopg said:


> I think what houseofcards is pointing out is simply CO2 does not kill the algae. Im pretty sure high light + no plants + CO2 ur going to be playing Harvest Moon: Algae Edition. I always viewed the topic as stable and sufficient CO2 levels provide a competition free environment for multiple species of plants, which thereby provides a plant favored environment and in turn fights algae. Hence the idea of growing healthy plants, and focusing on plants not killing algae. Isn't that why we all got into the hobby anyways?


Yes, that's pretty much the point I'm trying to make. The co2 is only going to be as effective as the number of plants you have that will increase uptake of waste breakdown. I believe if you want an actual algeacide you just have to buy a product that says Seachem on it. :hihi:


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

ua hua said:


> Ok so what if you have healthy plants and still get BBA popping up on the driftwood? What is the reason for this when your healthy plants fail to keep BBA away? If your co2 was not at sufficient levels then wouldn't your plants show signs of it?


Right, so the co2 cures all bba believers would have you raise co2 even higher or you don't have enough plants so you need to remove the driftwood and put more plants in there. Many people don't want to have Dutch type scapes. 

Why is that BBA appears on driftwood, slow growing plants and filter inlet/outlet in some aquariums? Are those the areas that have unstable co2? What do these areas have in common?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Zorfox said:


> No lab environment. Just a hobbyist's observations and wacky tinkering which is after all a hobby. Lol
> 
> …This happens to be a hobby where large scale studies are not feasible. The only true scientific studies are ones that correlate to the hobby. I resorted to reading academic papers from various disciplines to learn more..


I agree! I was asking about the lab notes tongue in cheek since it’s pretty much impossible to diagnosis one’s tank with any degree of certainty. It’s just too polluted with maintenance habits, different stock/light/waste, and other variables. 

I’m still not sure what you getting at with the co2. Are you saying it doesn’t matter how loaded the tank is with plants that staple co2 will prevent BBA? 

Your ‘experiment’ is far from any real proof, having organics build up overtime and breakdown is a lot different to me than squirting some ammonia in a tank. Even if it was 100% that simply ammonia should cause the BBA, it’s effect on one’s tank would vary widely based on one’s biofilter, maintenance, etc. let alone the few or whatever number of tank(s) you did it one. 



Zorfox said:


> ..The only way I could induce BBA was to directly cause CO2 fluctuations. I'm open to suggestions on other means. I personally have not found another. Everything I've tried induced green algaes to a point that one would have certainly thought BBA was the least of their worries. I'm sure some of the methods could have eventually led to BBA. However, the other algaes were far more prolific.


So if what your saying is true, one can load up their tanks with livestock, feed generously use strong light, have few plants and as long as the co2 is constant they will not get BBA. That seems to be what you’re saying if you believe your own ‘research’.


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## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

Yeah, can I blow the theories out of the water? 

What if? Guys, listen. What if? Guys, come on! What if... iwagumi

Have you seen the scapes some people have? Most of the plants need high CO2 levels. Like HC for instance. Do iwagumi style tanks battle BBA? Is HC capable of keeping BBA away?

Do small slow growing plants have the capability of battling this algae?

Another thing I noticed with my experiments using urea salt. Green algae of hair type grows from ammonia abundance. BBA doesn't seem to care if it's more or less ammonia.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

danielt said:


> Y*eah, can I blow the theories out of the water? *


Sorry that's not going to happen.



danielt said:


> Have you seen the scapes some people have? Most of the plants need high CO2 levels. Like HC for instance. Do iwagumi style tanks battle BBA? Is HC capable of keeping BBA away?


I would really recommend reading up on planted tanks, particularly the various type of aquascapes and see what people do to run them successfully. But actually I'm glad you mentioned Iwagumi. These types of scapes with limited plant mass, yes they usually need good co2 to work ,but in addition they require above average water changes, low fish loads and most use organic removers to make up for the difference since the uptake will be limited by the limited plant mass. They are also usually setup in shallow tanks so they won't have to overdue the light to reach the bottom, which would add to the algae fight.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Have grown BBA in tank's holding large cichlid's,no plant's,low to no lighting,no CO2 ,no fertz,stone and wood only as decor.This algae alway's appeared on wood,rock,substrate.
I then expierimented with cleaning the filter's more frequently,using less depth of substrate to make vaccuming more effective, reduced feeding's,and growth of this algae slowed ,then ceased to grow at all.
Considering that some only clean canister's /filter material maybe every few month's, maybe twice a year,, I am wondering if dirty filter's were allowing more organic's to be pumped back into the aquarium after biological,mechanical media became choked with crud??(easy to remedy)
The one thing that I have noticed, about the immaculately scaped tank's where algae is rarely seen Is,, they are all maintained to a degree that few bother with,or have time for.
I am not discounting poor application of CO2, and ability to accurately determine
amount's being pumped into the tank,or fluctuating CO2,but believe there is more that is contributer to the algae.
Has to be combination of variables, otherwise those who don't use CO2 injection or supplement's like myself,, would expierience this type of algae. But yet many run low tech,lower light tanks where CO2 is ALWAY's the limiting factor, and never see this or other types of algae. If I try and run more light in excess of what the low tech method can tolerate, I get algae. If I shade the light,raise the light,reduce photo period, algae with aggressive harrasment from me,,(cutting,removing affected leaves), dissappear's over time(week's). 
It occur's to me that I am rambling,so I shall stop now, but maybe this thread can help other's to consider everything ,rather than regurgitate "You need more CO2" for I* do not believe this alone is the issue.


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## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

Well, I just did a cleanup of my canister filter because the flow started to become just a drip. It didn't helped that BBA still present on the driftwood.

To clear things up. I have a shrimp only tank which is due to be replaced by a larger one I started some time ago but didn't had the resources to give it light which just recently has been fixed so I'll be moving all the stuff over to the larger tank.

This shrimp tank is 40L total volume with a Tetra EX700 hooked to it. It has two 24W T5HO lamps over it with one being 8.000K and one being 4.000K. No CO2 gas is dosed.

The algae never left the driftwood although I have plenty of anubias and java ferns in it to host it.

As I said, the filter got clogged, but the algae stayed put. This tells me that organic buildup, at least in this tank is not helping it.

No substrate siphoning or anything else to clean the tank. I do put IAL leaves in it but they get consumed.

Fertilization is done only with micro.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

roadmaster said:


> Have grown BBA in tank's holding large cichlid's,no plant's,low to no lighting,no CO2 ,no fertz,stone and wood only as decor.This algae alway's appeared on wood,rock,substrate.
> I then expierimented with cleaning the filter's more frequently,using less depth of substrate to make vaccuming more effective, reduced feeding's,and growth of this algae slowed ,then ceased to grow at all.
> Considering that some only clean canister's /filter material maybe every few month's, maybe twice a year,, I am wondering if dirty filter's were allowing more organic's to be pumped back into the aquarium after biological,mechanical media became choked with crud??(easy to remedy)
> The one thing that I have noticed, about the immaculately scaped tank's where algae is rarely seen Is,, they are all maintained to a degree that few bother with,or have time for.
> ...


I'm in love! :biggrin:


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

danielt said:


> Well, I just did a cleanup of my canister filter because the flow started to become just a drip. It didn't helped that BBA still present on the driftwood.
> 
> To clear things up. I have a shrimp only tank which is due to be replaced by a larger one I started some time ago but didn't had the resources to give it light which just recently has been fixed so I'll be moving all the stuff over to the larger tank.
> 
> ...


Well, wood is easy to take out and scrub even with plant's attached.
Maybe not letting filter get clogged by cleaning more often.
T5 bulb's at 24 watt's each over 40 litres is a lot of light for no CO2,or fert routine.
Algae will not dissappear over night, but could take week's to eradicate .
Might focus on general upkeep of the tank and water therein,reduce lighting,keep filter clean rather than wait till flow becomes trickle,feed the plant's small amount of macro nutrient's. (1/4to 1/3 EI weekly).
Witholding or limiting nutrient's for growth seldom benefit's plant's.
If plant's are struggling,algae can thrive for algae need's much less of everything.


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## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

I was making a point that this tank fits in the "doesn't make sense" pattern.

Notice the algae didn't make the headlines in this tank. If it were to spread, I would've make notice of that. Having it just on driftwood and staying in place doesn't make me all wild and start making abrupt changes just to get it off. I can easily burn it with EasyCarbo (Excel replacement in my country). I chose not to because it's an indicator.

BTW, I did started dosing trace amounts of macro fertilizer and iron. Since these threads kept on I made the change.


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## aquabruce (May 10, 2012)

ipkiss said:


> Ua hua,
> 
> So let's see if we can speculate your situation a little. Sorry Nanous, this might be a thread hijack or it might help you, and by extension, us all. You suspect something organic is triggering yours, and others suggest something co2. I personally wouldn't rule out both like I was telling Nanous since I'm not an expert. There's one thing that correlates both in my mind and that is water flow. Assuming this is on your 90 gallon, where is it happening on the driftwood -- as in topside? underside? a corner? Clearly, you have a dual stage rig so your pressurized is top notch and your plants a flourishing so that suggests you have enough, and you have a koralia (or more) so you have good flow throughout the tank but what about the very spot that your BBA is sneaking in on? While I hate to suggest that you ruin your scape for our experimentation, what if you rotated your driftwood somehow so that you move the dirty spot where there's obviously more flow (like directly in front of the path of the koralia) and you put a clean spot where the dirty spot was? If you're afraid of blowing BBA spores all over the place, what if you cleaned it off first and see if it comes back in the site of more flow? That way, we can possibly narrow it down to the driftwood itself being favorable or will a high co2, high flow situation would suppress it somewhat.


I don't think flow has anything to do with it. It grows out of the holes in my spraybar in one tank.
Granted that filter is probably due for a cleaning but the BBA just clings on and waves at me. I think I can hear it laughing sometimes.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

houseofcards said:


> Why is that BBA appears on driftwood, slow growing plants and filter inlet/outlet in some aquariums? Are those the areas that have unstable co2? What do these areas have in common?


Current mostly, and no critters gnawing on it. an SAE will make quick work of algae if they can get at it in the current. Several plecos will gnaw wood clean. 
Some have claimed Nerites can do this on stone, I've yet to verify this several times.

I've also done a few things like no water changes for a 2-4 months and placed BBA covered Java fern into a tank with a lot of tannins from Manzy. The BBA took about 1-2 months to die off, the plants recovered and grow great.

BBA comes from streams, so when the DOC and tannins increase, this means the seasons have changed. BBA can survive dessication also. This is common in streams where the flow changes and the subsequent change in the water level. Then when a rain comes along, the water rises and the BBA starts to grow again.

CO2 optima for BBA is said to be 5-10 ppm, light anywhere from 2-3 umols, 10 less than plants can withstand........to very very high light.

Avoiding water changes can help SOME folks, adding a lot of driftwood to the tank or the sump and wait. I suppose folks could try peat and then use that and no water changes for say 1-2 months and see.

Still, if BBA is on your plants, you have a CO2 related issue.
Every "cure" I've done in person, this has to number well into the 100's, has been CO2. Maybe current, maybe I modified current which can relate to cO2, maybe I added more CO2 somewhere or fixed something they overlooked. But it's also a CO2 issue at some level.

Too much degassing, or too little, both are bad, you want to have the Goldilocks balance with stable degassing and stable CO2 addition. 
This is not an easy thing.

I have more BBA here and there, very slowly growing on my tips of driftwood in my 120 Gallon tank, but the 20 Gallon non CO2 sponge filter, none. That's where I put the BBA covered plants I get. It never survives out there, lower light, but I rarely do water changes on a tank full of stumps and BBa covered plants. 2-3 months later, the tanks are lush and full again. I only add food for the RCS and rarely some excel. Not much.

Now a small slow growth of BBA is one thing, annoying if you keep things like Buce or Anubias, but placing these in shaded regions or using lower light helps a massive amount. 

But if you have a rapid coverage of BBA, then you almost always will have a CO2 ppm level bobbing up and down. Likely in that 5-10 ppm range.
This is a bloom and is very tough to stop once it starts. 
This needs a lot more work and will get on leaves and everything pretty much.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

roadmaster said:


> Have grown BBA in tank's holding large cichlid's,no plant's,low to no lighting,no CO2 ,no fertz,stone and wood only as decor.This algae alway's appeared on wood,rock,substrate.
> I then expierimented with cleaning the filter's more frequently,using less depth of substrate to make vaccuming more effective, reduced feeding's,and growth of this algae slowed ,then ceased to grow at all.
> Considering that some only clean canister's /filter material maybe every few month's, maybe twice a year,, I am wondering if dirty filter's were allowing more organic's to be pumped back into the aquarium after biological,mechanical media became choked with crud??(easy to remedy)
> The one thing that I have noticed, about the immaculately scaped tank's where algae is rarely seen Is,, they are all maintained to a degree that few bother with,or have time for.
> ...



Clogged filters and lower O2 from all the bacteria breaking down the waste in the filter........
That will reduce the flow and this changes the CO2 mixing and content in many aquariums.

What does adding a lot of light do to CO2 ppm's in a non CO2 tank?
=>The CO2 changes really fast when the lights come on.

If you have low light, most do not do many water changes with lower tech tanks.......you also do not have much CO2 demand and the CO2 is more stable and generally stays lower overall. Since few can measure CO2 at those lower levels accurately, little is done there. Most lower tech folks are not big on testing also. 

That's sort of the point.

Still, a clogged filter does play a significant role when it comes to CO2 vs a nice clean filter. Since most use filter returns to add O2 and a slight rippling..any change there, changes the degassing rates of CO2 and the O2 content coming to the water.

You have NOT escaped the wrath of CO2 with this hypothesis.


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## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

Tom, have you ever made any relation to plants adapted to CO2 and high light (high rubisco content) and this algae colonizing leaves because of this enzyme present in higher amount than usual? Would that explain plants in low tech tanks not having much BBA on them? Or am I wrong in my observation?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

houseofcards said:


> ..
> Why is that BBA appears on driftwood, slow growing plants and filter inlet/outlet in some aquariums? Are those the areas that have unstable co2? What do these areas have in common?





plantbrain said:


> Current mostly, and no critters gnawing on it. an SAE will make quick work of algae if they can get at it in the current. Several plecos will gnaw wood clean.
> Some have claimed Nerites can do this on stone, I've yet to verify this several times.


Not sure I understand your response. Are you saying it only grows on these things where the current is strong? What do critters have to do with it. It still grows there first. That certainly is disproven in many setups. 



plantbrain said:


> Still, if BBA is on your plants, you have a CO2 related issue.
> Every "cure" I've done in person, this has to number well into the 100's, has been CO2. Maybe current, maybe I modified current which can relate to cO2, maybe I added more CO2 somewhere or fixed something they overlooked. But it's also a CO2 issue at some level.


So it has nothing to do with plant mass/stock/feeding/uptake on how effective co2 is. Your saying co2 kills BBA directly. I gave this example earlier if I flooded a LFS BBA covered tanks with co2 and keep it constant and there was only a few banana plants in there would that get rid of the BBA in your opinion? 



plantbrain said:


> I have more BBA here and there, very slowly growing on my tips of driftwood in my 120 Gallon tank, but the 20 Gallon non CO2 sponge filter, none. That's where I put the BBA covered plants I get. It never survives out there, lower light, but I rarely do water changes on a tank full of stumps and BBa covered plants. 2-3 months later, the tanks are lush and full again. I only add food for the RCS and rarely some excel. Not much.


How is then whenever I see a tuft here and there, I increase water changes and add carbon/purigen and the BBA stops. I don’t touch the co2. 



plantbrain said:


> But if you have a rapid coverage of BBA, then you almost always will have a CO2 ppm level bobbing up and down. Likely in that 5-10 ppm range.
> This is a bloom and is very tough to stop once it starts.
> This needs a lot more work and will get on leaves and everything pretty much.


This gets back to my main concern. You saying it’s a co2 issue regardless of plant mass, growth, organic load. It’s simply a co2 issue regardless of the setup.


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## nanous (Mar 19, 2013)

yep, still don't get it.

-i have my lights at half strength for two 3 hour photoperiods with a 3 hour siesta in between to keep co2 up.

-co2 is so close to max i've killed fish several times messing with it. all my shrimp are gone. i had amanos, all died as i cranked co2 up higher and higher so all they are munching is the great bba in the sky.

-dosing regularly, no algae issues other than bba

-eheim 2217 in a 26g tank, should be plenty of flow but not too much

-mung, and most else, apparently are non issues

-planted like crazy


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## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

You wrongly assume plants are doing well. Then why is BBA growing on them?

@houseofcards

Given enough light, I believe the presence of CO2 in an amount above a threshold will turn on the algae. Regardless if you have plants or not. If you don't have plants, you need to get the CO2 out if its not needed. Improved circulation, gas exchange and aeration.

In a planted tank, the plants can be used to restore the balance, they can be used in that way along with circulation, gas exchange, so that you maintain a CO2 plateau which is not in excess but enough to meet the plants demand. It's like walking on a wire, you will get to the other side, eventually


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## nanous (Mar 19, 2013)

Lol just woke up from a dream/nightmare about a full tank breakdown, removing bba with peroxide!


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

nanous said:


> Lol just woke up from a dream/nightmare about a full tank breakdown, removing bba with peroxide!


Wow you are stressing over this. Do you have a decent surface ripple? Those floaters seem pretty well spaced and no apparent surface agitation in the image. Also, have you tried going back to a single photoperiod? If the levels are hard to maintain the broken periods may be causing more of a problem.


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