# Please help my neocaridina shrimp keep dying!



## Swagturtle (Apr 4, 2018)

My water parameters are as follows for my red cherry shrimp tank.
I tested with api master test kit, api copper test, api GH & KH test, and a TDS PEN.
PH-8
72°F
TDS-307
copper-0ppm
Ammonia-0ppm
Nitrite-0ppm
Nitrate-5.0ppm
GH-15
KH-13
Im fairly new to planted tanks and tanks in general. I know my GH is high by 1 and my KH by even more but I dont know how to fix them. This week I had two decently old shrimp die and I've noticed this white line on their waist that im pretty sure its a sign of a molting problems. And the shrimps would also have a blueish tint on a small area on their sides. But idk what could be killing them for sure. I do have baby's in the tank they have been breeding. I have a buried shrimp I did have two but the mom dropped the eggs.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Where did the shrimp come from?

What are you feeding?

What are your current water changes like?


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## Swagturtle (Apr 4, 2018)

Food im feeding is Shirakura Shrimp Food Baked with Organic Seaweed. But usually I have to take it out because they dont eat it right now i have half a tab in i had three munching on it and some babys too.
I got them from Amazon from Aquatic arts I have had them for 2+ months I recently stopped weekly water changes and just did a water top off this past weekend by dripping water to reduce water swings.

Zoidburg you helped me out on my KH and GH testing post but i came and posted again because i keep having deaths.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

The only issue I can see instantly is that you purchased from AA. More specifically, you probably purchased imports which are prone to not thriving well in tanks in the USA. These shrimp are likely from soft water parameters and may be struggling to survive in harder water. The only way to "fix" the water is to use RO or distilled water to bring down the GH and KH.


At this moment, I do not recommend changing anything. If the shrimp are breeding and you have babies surviving, don't change your parameters. Leave them be. However, if your babies are also dying, then yes, it might be a good idea to try changing something!


If your tap water is as hard as your tank water is, then topping off with tap water will only raise your GH and KH because those do not evaporate - water does. You can continue doing regular water changes, just do small amounts and drip back in as you've started doing.


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## Swagturtle (Apr 4, 2018)

I had like 3 babys die one was out of the tank and the other two no clear signs like parasites or molting problems but other than that idk. I looked them up they are located in Indianapolis they breed in America so it couldn't be that. Unless IN has softer water than Idaho. But other than that yeah they are mating the baby's are almost a month old and i had some new ones hatch from a makeshift egg incubator.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Sorry, it doesn't matter where they are from... unless otherwise specified, AA sells imports. They have great customer service but the imports often come in with parasites and fail to thrive. This can be said for any company that sells imported Neos, so it's not AA alone.

https://www.reddit.com/r/shrimptank/comments/63unhe/help_aquatic_arts_gave_me_parasites_and_fungus/


You can use RO/Distilled mixed with tap to bring down GH and KH. If your tap water is as hard as your tank water, then you could do approximately a 50/50 mix then do small water changes over time to bring those levels down. This gives the shrimp time to adjust to the new parameters and create less of a shock. Or, you could cut out tap altogether and get GH/KH minerals and use with RO water.


My shrimp tanks are mostly remineralized tap water right now (I have soft tap...), but I'm switching over to remineralized RO water. The large tank was reading over 400 TDS, then 380 TDS, somehow dropped that to over 300 TDS (was probably around 320 or so?), now it's about 290 TDS. My smaller tank was over 200 TDS and is now about 180.


Will note that although many people have had success keeping Neos in tap water, some people who failed to keep Neos found success once switching to remineralized RO water.


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## Swagturtle (Apr 4, 2018)

I have been wanting to switch to RO/ID but I do not know whats a good unit for RO water. They are like 100+ on Amazon which is not ideal but I would like to fix my water so I dont keep getting dead shimp. Especially since I started to want to get 3 other tanks setup for more neos. And say I get ro water how would i transition my tanks tap water to ro?


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

I have two of these, they've both performed flawlessly. Highly recommend them.
Refurbished 90-GPD RODI System - RODI-90-REFURB

I'd remineralize KH with sodium bicarbonate(baking soda) vs. potassium (bi)carbonate simply because you're already getting plenty of potassium from your fertilizers and I believe you some amount of sodium is necessary for the livestock. For GH remineralizing, I just use MgSO4 and CaSO4. I bought jars of those chems from GLA.

Taking shrimp from hard water like yours to soft water all at once would be very bad. You'll need to do small water changes over several weeks with the RODI water to get them acclimated.


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

As a note I have puchased shrimp from aquatic arts and have never had any deaths in the delivered bags or in the tank for months Later. I think in your case your water is simply too hard. Any RO system will reduce water hardness. The only thing you will want to consider is the production rate and ease of maintenance. The unit Mgeorges linked is a 90 gallons per day unit wich is enough to do one full water change per day in a 90 gallon tank. Most RO systems you find one local hardware stores are around 20 gallons per day. You con use a 20gallon per day system but you will have to fill a large bucket over several days to get enough water to do a water change. 

As Mgeorges has stated you need to gradually reduce water hardness and you will have to apply a GH KH booster (baking soda). Also make sure your plant fertilizer does have copper in it. Plants and shrimp do need copper. The copper levels in fertilizers (typically less than 5part per billion) is safe for shrimp. 

I would start by first mineralize some water before the water change so that it has your desired GH and KH level. then do small water changes daily for a week. By the end of the week your water GH should be close to the desired level. At that point you should be able to do a 50% water change with pre remineralized RO water without harming the shrimp.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

I just picked up 10 gallons of RO water from the grocery store for $3.70 total. I'm not interested or willing to buy an RO unit right now, so I just get it from the store and use 5 gallon buckets to move it.


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## Jack Shaftoe (Apr 29, 2006)

They need consistent artemia nauplii or rotifers.

Are you fully aware of the species life-cycle? Many invertebrates senesce after breeding.

Obviously the water quality is off, but most people can't help but to breed TOO many of this animal. Their water q requirements are overrated. Clearly. This animal is a prolific breeder in novice situations. 
I suggest completely starting over. Bleach it all, let it dry, and begin again. Multiple tanks will help. Use 2-5 tanks. This is an easy species to culture. It rarely requires special needs outside of a novice aquarist. However, if one variable is missing, you're screwed. So start over. It's not a bad thing to begin from scratch. It's actually very commendable and disciplined.


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## Swagturtle (Apr 4, 2018)

Loving all the help thanks. I just have a few questions whats the difference if i get salty shrimp GH and KH+ to remineralize instead of baking soda? I cant start over right now because I dont have a RO DI unit or other tanks I do have a smaller one but I would prefer to restart a tank that I would like because like I said I want to have a rack for 4 tanks in my room. And if i restart a tank it would need to cycle it. By that time 2+ shrimps would most likely die once the cycling process for that tank ends. And that sucks since I've grown attached to the last 6 shimps I have. And what RO DI unit would I need if I only have 4 ten gallon tanks in the future? Would I really need a 50 gallons per day or 70? Idk much about the RO units I've barely started looking into them and they are quite expensive. But I would prefer one since I dont want to go to the store every week. And also I have searched some RO DI units and some come up as RO and RO DI I know reverse osmosis and Deionization but wih the ones without DI do they not have Deionization or is it just a marketing act to shorten the name?


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## LauraR (Nov 20, 2017)

I have a 20L and a 10, purchased this unit and it has worked fine for me, not super expensive https://www.amazon.com/Aquatic-Life...qid=1524144390&sr=8-3&keywords=ro+buddie&th=1


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

Swagturtle said:


> Loving all the help thanks. I just have a few questions whats the difference if i get salty shrimp GH and KH+ to remineralize instead of baking soda? I cant start over right now because I dont have a RO DI unit or other tanks I do have a smaller one but I would prefer to restart a tank that I would like because like I said I want to have a rack for 4 tanks in my room. And if i restart a tank it would need to cycle it. By that time 2+ shrimps would most likely die once the cycling process for that tank ends. And that sucks since I've grown attached to the last 6 shimps I have. And what RO DI unit would I need if I only have 4 ten gallon tanks in the future? Would I really need a 50 gallons per day or 70? Idk much about the RO units I've barely started looking into them and they are quite expensive. But I would prefer one since I dont want to go to the store every week. And also I have searched some RO DI units and some come up as RO and RO DI I know reverse osmosis and Deionization but wih the ones without DI do they not have Deionization or is it just a marketing act to shorten the name?


 @Jack Shaftoe There's absolutely no reason to tear the tank down completely, that is terrible advice. I'm not sure how we go from "I have some shrimp dying" to "you need to burn it down, start again". This doesn't show discipline, it shows a lack of understanding. 

RODI will give you 0 TDS. "100%"-ish pure water. RO units don't have the DI stage and will have some level of TDS. My water is extremely hard and has a TDS out of the tap 300+. An RO unit alone wouldn't get my TDS to 0, I'd be in the 30-50+ range, I need the extra DI to do the final removal.

I would suggest you seriously consider the unit I posted. It is a GREAT bang for your buck and a seriously quality unit. As far as flow rates - at 90 GPD, that's 3.75 GPH. That means you have to wait over an hour for your 5 gallon bucket to refill, and you have 4 tanks to change. Time consuming, right? Imagine an even lower flow rate. I actually purchased a 55 gallon water storage barrel to make water and store it for when I need it, this eliminates my wait time. This may not be an option for you, but thought I'd mention it. 

I would not purchase a pre-made product to remineralize. There's no advantage (other than ease of use) and it costs more. MgSO4 and CaSO4 are all you need for GH, and sodium bicarbonate is all you need for KH. All three compounds can be readily found online, and baking soda is available at your local grocer as well. You'll add Ca:Mg in a 3 ppm:1 ppm ratio, this works very well. A 4:1 ratio can be done, I've always stuck with 3:1. So for every 3 ppm of Ca you add, you'll add 1 ppm Mg. You can use Rotalabutterfly.com to do the calculations. You'll want to remineralize your water to no less than a GH of 6.

No disrespect to Laura, but I would steer clear of the RO Buddy. Expensive replacement cartridges that are going to be quite short lived with water like yours.

Additionally - your shrimp need certain minerals and vitamins to thrive. You'll need to make sure you're feeding them a high quality food and adding some of the trace minerals to the water.


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## Swagturtle (Apr 4, 2018)

mgeorges said:


> I have two of these, they've both performed flawlessly. Highly recommend them.
> Refurbished 90-GPD RODI System - RODI-90-REFURB
> 
> I'd remineralize KH with sodium bicarbonate(baking soda) vs. potassium (bi)carbonate simply because you're already getting plenty of potassium from your fertilizers and I believe you some amount of sodium is necessary for the livestock. For GH remineralizing, I just use MgSO4 and CaSO4. I bought jars of those chems from GLA.
> ...


At what point would I have to start to add baking soda, MgSO4, and CaSO4 when switching to RO DI? And how much of each for 10 gallons is the ideal KH and GH for reference? I have to ask cuz the way you explain it is hard for me to understand im still new to parts per million and such. Do you 100% recommend a RO DI unit vs just a RO unit? Or can I get by with a RO that LauraR mentioned especially cuz its 50 and not 100+. But most likely ill get the one you mentioned cuz yes waiting that much time for water would be a bore. And the link for it stoped working sadly so ill have to find one similar.


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## LauraR (Nov 20, 2017)

Just for clarification, the RO Buddy link is for an RO DI unit. I don't buy the manufacturer's replacement cartridge for the DI Resin, and I haven't needed to replace the others yet. Also, since it is slower I make a few 5 gallon buckets ahead of time so it will be ready when I need it.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Some shrimp remineralizers may contain more than just minerals in them. Some may even contain nutrients that are beneficial to shrimp. 

A product like Salty Shrimp GH/KH, you can't overdose one GH/KH over the other. They are at a set ratio designed for shrimp. This is geared at a 2:1 ratio, for every 2 GH, you'll have 1 KH. There's no calculations or guesswork involved. Once you figure out what GH/KH you want the tank at, then you add it to RO water until you get desired levels, measure TDS, then every time you need to make up a new batch of water, you measure the TDS. You wont have to measure GH or KH every time. It's simple, and it's easy.

mgeorges method may be cheaper though. Saying that, if you use carbonates over bicarbonates, then pH can be lower. Bicarbonates tend to raise pH where-as carbonates don't - from my understanding.

I'm not making it complicated and restarting my tanks... I'm just doing water changes as normal, except the new water is remineralized RO water. Perhaps you may find it better to start up new tanks?

With hard water though, I would recommend a more expensive unit as it may be able to last longer and work better than a cheaper one. Wouldn't know, but you are usually either stuck with a cheap unit that has expensive replacement cartridges or an expensive unit with cheaper replacement cartridges. Usually how it works.


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

@Swagturtle No worries! Happy to explain. You could add straight RODI little bit at a time, doing very small water changes over a couple weeks. Maybe do twice weekly water changes, remove 10% of the water and add back RODI and check your parameters. Do this until GH is around 6-8, however long that takes, then you can start remineralizing. I base mine on my 5 gallon buckets, and I figure the number I ACTUALLY fill my bucket at 4.5 gallons. I add 2.04 grams of CaSO4, which yields 27.88 ppm Ca and 3.9 dGH, and 1.61 grams of MgSO4, which yields 9.32 ppm Mg and 2.15 dGH to 4.5 gallons. You now have a total dGH of 6.05, and a 3:1 ratio of Ca:Mg (27.88 ppm:9.32 ppm) in your bucket. Basically, you can take that 3:1 ratio and you'll bump in multiples - 6:2, 9:3, 12:4...whatever you multiply the three by, you multiply the 1 by to maintain your ratio. 

As far as RO vs RODI, a lot of people here do not use the DI stage. I like it because of how bad my water is and the fact that I know the pipe in the wall is leaching. I have zero worries about what is entering my water with the DI stage. Would I recommend the RODI over RO? Yes, but that's because I only have experience with RODI haha. And I love it. Zero guessing games, I know what's in my water because I put it there.

@Zoidburg Interesting on the carbonates vs bicarbonates. I think I've only used bicarbonates, potassium and sodium, unless nilocG's reKHarb is made with potassium carbonate. I notice with my KH at 4 using NaHCO3, my off gassed pH is right around 7.6.


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## Swagturtle (Apr 4, 2018)

mgeorges said:


> @Swagturtle No worries! Happy to explain. You could add straight RODI little bit at a time, doing very small water changes over a couple weeks. Maybe do twice weekly water changes, remove 10% of the water and add back RODI and check your parameters. Do this until GH is around 6-8, however long that takes, then you can start remineralizing. I base mine on my 5 gallon buckets, and I figure the number I ACTUALLY fill my bucket at 4.5 gallons. I add 2.04 grams of CaSO4, which yields 27.88 ppm Ca and 3.9 dGH, and 1.61 grams of MgSO4, which yields 9.32 ppm Mg and 2.15 dGH to 4.5 gallons. You now have a total dGH of 6.05, and a 3:1 ratio of Ca:Mg (27.88 ppm:9.32 ppm) in your bucket. Basically, you can take that 3:1 ratio and you'll bump in multiples - 6:2, 9:3, 12:4...whatever you multiply the three by, you multiply the 1 by to maintain your ratio.
> 
> As far as RO vs RODI, a lot of people here do not use the DI stage. I like it because of how bad my water is and the fact that I know the pipe in the wall is leaching. I have zero worries about what is entering my water with the DI stage. Would I recommend the RODI over RO? Yes, but that's because I only have experience with RODI haha. And I love it. Zero guessing games, I know what's in my water because I put it there.
> 
> @Zoidburg Interesting on the carbonates vs bicarbonates. I think I've only used bicarbonates, potassium and sodium, unless nilocG's reKHarb is made with potassium carbonate. I notice with my KH at 4 using NaHCO3, my off gassed pH is right around 7.6.


Yeah I think im going to go ahead and look for a RO DI unit. I'll use baking soda and the two other chems you mentioned, yes it does look like it will take a little math for them. As I was looking at the item's though I would rather buy the jars for 22$ then when I need more buy the bags as refills for the jars because the bags cost less. 11$ for both and thats way cheaper than 33$ for GH KH+ and im also getting 1 pound of both vs GH KH+ which is only 0.4 pounds I did not do the math on which one treats more water but my money's on the chems you told me about. GH KH+ treats 1000 liters if you want to find out for me. Thanks for all the help it was real informative I just wished before I got into keeping the shrimps as pets someone told me or I even stumbled upon a video or something explaining why if you have harder water I would ether need to buy water or get a RO system. It is a learning experience but one im willing to go through since I was intrigued by the neocaridina shrimp.


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