# SunPlus light design?



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Not sure if the "fresh fish" is published either.. Personal correspondence..verified by charting.. see below..
New product and I suspect people here are the few that have even bothered to toy w/ them..

Really don't believe the sunplus 6500k is different than it. VERY slight differences in spectral charts..

There is no 6500k chip that is 1) easily accessible and 2)has as high of CRI as Sunplus/fresh fish @ 6500k..

There are other worthy COB's..
Was just playing w/ this:









Planted tanks have 2 factors w/ semi-opposing qualifications
Needs to look good and bright (human eye vision)
Needs to supply needed light for photosynthesis (plant "vision")

Those 2 are almost polar opposites.. 
Eye sees green/yellow as "bright"
Plants see red/blue as "bright"

simplistic but.. hey..

As to driving chips.. they usually list max current and it usually means max current.
When you hit that and above you start to overheat the chips and destroy the crystal structure/phosphors..
dunking them in liq. Nitrogen and you could probably run them at 5x max current.. who knows..
top that off w/ LEd's (currently) lose efficiency the harder you drive them. Say you get 150L/w at 500mA, rasing the current to 100mA doesn't get you 300L/W
More like 230L/W (made up example) AND you shorten their lifespan w/ more heat..









This might help you:
https://www.lumileds.com/uploads/702/WP34-pdf

CRI isn't even the whole story . Only 16 "patches" representing things like grass, saturated red, fleshtones.. but usable..
Natural sunlight has a CRI of 100.. That is the bar for some.

Not for everyone though.










Most LED's , unlike tubes and mh's usually have a big dip in the blue/cyan range and 1)contributes to poor color rendition and 2)"may" influence plant physiology..
along w/ low deep red and zero violet. another part of the story.
red plus blue hort. thing was "the best" at the time to provide high photosynthesis w/ min expensive "useless" light.. like green/yellow.
The science is still evolving..thanks, in a large part to LEd's and their tight wavelengths..


----------



## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Ok..so im fixed on these.. where is the sunplus 6500 graph? How do you know its the "same" as the fresh fish?

Was planning to use ldd-l 1200 adjustable drivers. Four channels, cw, lime, dr, rb. What ratios would you start with? 3 1 1 1? 

How do they compare to lux rebels in output?

Im running 40x cw/nw epis @ 600 mA over 48". How many of these sunplus cw @ 1200 eqiv lumens? Biggest fear is they are not much brighter than my epis, thus quadrupling price.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Eye bright doesn't tell the story.. Between say 1000 lumens and 1300 lumens you coudn't tell the difference.. 
Sorry hand transposed the 2 graphs. you need to take my word on this since ATM can't find the file..








Compare it to the above.

as to "lumens" ect of the sunplus.. 

this is where the world gets ironic..


They only list it in "PAR"... 
Maybe this will help.. no idea in any distances.. which is weird:









https://www.lumileds.com/horticulture/calculator/

Cruder comp than first one..FF is thick green. See the peaks and valleys correspond..Consider differences "artifacts".. 










AS to the chips.. I assumed the 2x2 ones. (20 series)


----------



## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

All this tells me is that phillips knows to hire a web developer to build a thought provoking toy.

What should i try to do, match sunlight curve? There is no cri or quality measure.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

If you match a sunlight curve to match it's CRI. 100.. 

What you want is a tank that looks good to you (may even have crummy CRI) and can grow plants..

It is relatively safe to assume that matching sunlight pretty well covers both bases.. proven by nature
and eons of evolution..

buying Fresh fish COB's translates to $1.14/3W... Only 2x the cost of Epistars..
3387 lumens 108L/watt

The sunplus will be identical or close..

you can buy a $10 lux meter from China to verify.. 

Oh and I'd probably lens the sunplus.. That angle, unless your setting them almost on top of the tank.. is a bit too extreme for my taste..

Heck, you are building it yourself.. Mix up some (sunplus) w/ Epi's.. That is the fun of it..Dollar cost averaging..


----------



## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Oh and I'd probably lens the sunplus.. That angle, unless your setting them almost on top of the tank.. is a bit too extreme for my taste..
> 
> Heck, you are building it yourself.. Mix up some (sunplus) w/ Epi's.. That is the fun of it..Dollar cost averaging..


We are back to the "devil that you know." (epi) I never finished my multi channel epi build, because the 6500 3500 combo looks decent and I didn't have the time. Maybe I should just continue with the cheap parts and finish my multi channel color build. I have cyan, RB, DR leds waiting. Why did (you) recommend the Cyan vs the Lime to fill in the spectrum?

I wasnt sure how that beam angle would affect things...

One thing I know for sure is that on this build I will tap the aluminum. Should allow much quicker and cleaner led swaps for testing.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Base phosphors for most white LEd's are yellow..
Why add green?








Add something others don't have.. i.e cyan
Technically should use the bluer cyan than the greener one.. 



> One thing I know for sure is that on this build I will tap the aluminum.


glutton for punishment in my experience..


----------



## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

I hate tapping aluminum... that's why I like the rapid and makers t-slot heatsinks... pricy though.


----------



## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Lingwendil said:


> I hate tapping aluminum... that's why I like the rapid and makers t-slot heatsinks... pricy though.


Tapping a small hole through a 1/8" piece of aluminum can't take more than 30s. 60x LEDS, 120 holes. 15 minutes to mark, 15 minutes to drill, 60 minutes to tap... 

Contrast that to mixing epoxy, the messy application, then waiting for it to dry. 

Biggest concern is that tap will wear out.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> Tapping a small hole through a 1/8" piece of aluminum can't take more than 30s. 60x LEDS, 120 holes. 15 minutes to mark, 15 minutes to drill, 60 minutes to tap...
> 
> Contrast that to mixing epoxy, the messy application, then waiting for it to dry.
> 
> Biggest concern is that tap will wear out.


just use heatsink plaster...
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Tia...Natural-Cure-Silicone-Sealant/2026609674.html
https://uedata.amazon.com/Silicone-Thermal-Conductive-Adhesive-Solidification/dp/B00NKW2EUY


> Properties and Uses:
> Single-component, non-toxic, solvent-free, non-polluting, non-corrosive, anti-aging, temperature -60- + 250 degrees, room temperature curing. Easy to use, has excellent electrical insulation, and anti-arc performance. Dedicated to electric heating components, steam electric iron and electrical and electronic insulation, stick and seal.
> 
> Usage:
> ...


LOL....

Easier to find stuff:
Thermal Conductive Heatsink Glue Silicone Grease Plaster Viscous Adhesive PC GPU

you know where to put it.. Comes out of KS..



> Item location:
> Pratt, Kansas, United States


----------



## napaeozapus (Feb 22, 2014)

My current plans are to use the fresh fish with Luxeon crisp white (gen 2) along with deep and far red SunPlus supplements.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

So the sunplus 20 comes in an SMD package? I wonder if I can get someone like Steve's LED to make a board that matches the ADA aquasky one and replace it. Or basically just a long strip of it. With only cool white sunplus 20.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

gus6464 said:


> So the sunplus 20 comes in an SMD package? I wonder if I can get someone like Steve's LED to make a board that matches the ADA aquasky one and replace it. Or basically just a long strip of it. With only cool white sunplus 20.


Trying to get "blueacros" attention for this. His boards should be set for the footprint...
Steves might, though he may have already reflowed onto stars all of his "lot"... considering they are on sale doubt if he would consider it though, unless he has surplus loose on hand..


> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel DeepRed (650-670nm) [120°] x1
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon sunplus x3
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel 2700K (2580-2870K) [120°] x1
> SemiLEDs C35L-U-A UV (400-410nm) (U60) [120°] x1


6 diodes/4 channels

Best CRI w/ semi driven ½ (95). color temp 6670K

what ya think?

Yea pucks..


----------



## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

jeffkrol said:


> Trying to get "blueacros" attention for this. His boards should be set for the footprint...
> Steves might, though he may have already reflowed onto stars all of his "lot"... considering they are on sale doubt if he would consider it though, unless he has surplus loose on hand..
> 
> 
> ...


I just want one diode sku and none of that puck nonsense. A grid of diodes like the aquasky or coralcare for larger tanks.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

gus6464 said:


> I just want one diode sku and none of that puck nonsense. A grid of diodes like the aquasky or coralcare for larger tanks.


Steve will do one color strips but it looks like te rebelsaren't the same footprint as the sunplus chips. I'll have to check for sure.
Looks like youmight need to design your own board..


----------



## theatrus (Mar 20, 2007)

You have my attention on SunPlus.

A mixed multi-chip star sounds like a good form factor for this?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Philips sunplus DeepRed (650-670nm) [120°] x1 
Phillips sunplus 6500k x3 
PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel 2700K (2580-2870K) [120°] x1 
SemiLEDs C35L-U-A UV (400-410nm) (U60) [120°] x1 

Best CRI w/ semi driven ½ (95). color temp 6670K[/IMG]

Based on this...








sunplus diodes have a minor issue.. Very wide lens natively..Max 162 degrees 

Gus would prefer basically "panels" (strips) of just 6500k chips problem is more than likely one would need to lens each ..soo "pucks" seem worthwhile.

Heck while you are at it you can design hort "pucks" based on the line.. Bigger market.. 

https://www.lumileds.com/horticulture/calculator/



> 150° angle for uniform light distribution for greenhouse applications
> Two package options 2.0mm x 2.0mm and 3.5mm x 3.5mm for design freedom


ADDENDUM and bit off this topic
Entered "lime" into the calc and started playing..
No guarantees on exact numbers of each chip (there are some things about my import that I question) but this data was interesting..



> Freshfish6500k.csv [115°] x1
> lime [120°] x1
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel DeepRed (650-670nm) [120°] x1
> SemiLEDs C35L-U-A UV (390-400nm) (U50) [120°] x1(option of 400-410 w/ minor hit on CRI)
> ...


Best CRI w/ least amount of chips.. Unf. even w/ seperate channels no "sunrise simulation" is possible w/ the possible exception of deepred/lime.. Would have to actually see it.

Addendum 2:
Plotted the sunplus from the published curves..
In comparing to the fresh fish there is an anomoly..
CRI is 92 and 5680K... 
Soooooooooo if it's supposed to be 6500K the graph is off.. The 2 hump cyan-red region is higher than the fresh fish, throwing off the data.

"IF" it is wrong AND 6500k like the ff another 6 color combo:



> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> myData sunplus6500c.csv [120°] x3
> myData lime.txt [120°] x1
> ...


.2 blue was added to equalize he sunplus to 6500K (note should be more like .1 blue/ 4 sunplus 6500k but ..hey just estimates)


----------



## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Philips sunplus DeepRed (650-670nm) [120°] x1
> Phillips sunplus 6500k x3
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel 2700K (2580-2870K) [120°] x1
> SemiLEDs C35L-U-A UV (400-410nm) (U60) [120°] x1
> ...


Working with these colors, could you achieve the same CRI with a lower quality base CW and different ratios of the colors?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

hitting 99 is pretty special. When Buildmyled had their on line calculator it took a lot of work and colors to do it..
Not that all infinite combos were checked though..



Hitting 95 plus at d65 or daylight CRI is not difficult.
Catch is which colors return the best bang for the buck..

Running 5 colors w/ few at max output is pretty $ wasteful so CRI needs to be weighed against this and any "effects" one wants to achieve.. Like moonlights/sunrises/overall tone even w/ high CRI

high CRI sort of guarantees a pleasant overall look but not.. quite..the end of the story..

The answer is sure..
Generic diodes.. Prob is what do you "get".. All LED have ranges of color and electrical characteristics.. 


> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> LED DeepRed (660nm) [120°] x1
> LED CoolWhite (8000K) [120°] x3
> ...


slightly short on sat blue swatch..(68)


----------



## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

Theatrus! You're alive!


I still love my custom pucks from you, by the way.

I was wondering when you would take notice of the sunplus series. I love the ones I've used, perfect for freshwater base lighting.


----------



## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

I do own a couple of these puppies with goosenecks. I would do pucks if I could keep the whole thing inside the heatsink including driver. Don't care for a controller on and off is fine and I want no multi channel crap. Just on and off with color that looks good. If I want more juice I can just tweak the driver to push more amps. Problem is fan is 12v and there's no tiny drivers with a 12v tap.

Just one set of wires coming out of the thing going to a meanwell hlg.























Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

See no reason you couldn't just thermal paste 2 Fresh fish COB and 2 LDD-s into there..
at the most you would have 4 wires.. 16ga thermostate wire comes in that..

As to the fans.. plenty of small boards to drop voltage from 48 to 12..
Heck bare wiring a cheap voltage reg in there doesn't look to complicated..

China's full of them..

All you got left is a power supply on the outside..Pretty normal this day and age..


----------



## Kampo (Nov 3, 2015)

jeffkrol said:


> Trying to get "blueacros" attention for this. His boards should be set for the footprint...
> Steves might, though he may have already reflowed onto stars all of his "lot"... considering they are on sale doubt if he would consider it though, unless he has surplus loose on hand..
> 
> 
> ...



if blue accro would sell a sunplus based blueacro that would be the kill diy setup for fresh tanks one of his full 16 led stars with 2 channels of 3 sunplus and 1 deep red for the main whites, a blue channel (thinking sunplus, cyan, coolblue and a violet) and a warm channel with a High CRI warm white) i would of done that in a second instead of my fresh fish/vero combo (which I still love to death dont get me wrong)

Bump:


gus6464 said:


> I do own a couple of these puppies with goosenecks. I would do pucks if I could keep the whole thing inside the heatsink including driver. Don't care for a controller on and off is fine and I want no multi channel crap. Just on and off with color that looks good. If I want more juice I can just tweak the driver to push more amps. Problem is fan is 12v and there's no tiny drivers with a 12v tap.
> 
> Just one set of wires coming out of the thing going to a meanwell hlg.
> 
> ...


i just did a simlar light for my fresh cube, basically did what jeffkrol said I used 1 fresh fish and 1 vero10 3500k and then took 2 LDDs and glued them to the heatsink and then solderd them up. I also added a NodeMCU board and a PCA9685 in there and running some software from MrMan on them to give me timing and sunset/sunrise so its all contained in one 12inch makersled heasink. I honestly wish I woudl of gone with a 6in heatsink since there is room to do it more compact. 

I really like that little light setup. should work real well for a couple COBs like jeff mentioned or a acrostar setup if you can get a special one made

Bump:


jeffkrol said:


> Philips sunplus DeepRed (650-670nm) [120°] x1
> Phillips sunplus 6500k x3
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel 2700K (2580-2870K) [120°] x1
> SemiLEDs C35L-U-A UV (400-410nm) (U60) [120°] x1
> ...


crap I reponded to quick before I saw the second page, I love that idea jeff for the chip that would be a perfect fresh tank setup, i'd miss a blue for moonlight but tbh i'm liking the look of a fresh fishdriven very very dim for that its cool enough to work, so i'd imagine same would apply for sunplus with a bit of violet

Bump:

```

```



jeffkrol said:


> Steve will do one color strips but it looks like te rebelsaren't the same footprint as the sunplus chips. I'll have to check for sure.
> Looks like youmight need to design your own board..


i checked with steve on sunplus on 3ups and he said no go, he said he might have them on his 7up and 14up strips soon though.


----------



## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

jeffkrol said:


> See no reason you couldn't just thermal paste 2 Fresh fish COB and 2 LDD-s into there..
> at the most you would have 4 wires.. 16ga thermostate wire comes in that..
> 
> As to the fans.. plenty of small boards to drop voltage from 48 to 12..
> ...


I've done the cheap Chinese step down boards and they are crap. Had a typhoon die because of it so I am not trusting that. Meanwell SCW or nothing.


----------



## theatrus (Mar 20, 2007)

Horticultural is a big market, and booming, I just sadly don’t follow much of it 

You have me convinced. Will drop in a few footprints to see what I can arrange with the combos here. I do still have stock of the SemiLEDs 3535 series, though the Lumileds UV U2 line is starting to not be absurdly priced (hmm)


----------



## Kampo (Nov 3, 2015)

theatrus said:


> Horticultural is a big market, and booming, I just sadly don’t follow much of it
> 
> You have me convinced. Will drop in a few footprints to see what I can arrange with the combos here. I do still have stock of the SemiLEDs 3535 series, though the Lumileds UV U2 line is starting to not be absurdly priced (hmm)


yeah i'd imagine with certain things becoming legal in certain states there is legitamate buisness to grow indoors now as power effecently as possible.

those lumileds uv are interesting would be nice to see another option available to us hobbiest other than semileds which aren't the greatest


----------



## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

theatrus said:


> Horticultural is a big market, and booming, I just sadly don’t follow much of it
> 
> You have me convinced. Will drop in a few footprints to see what I can arrange with the combos here. I do still have stock of the SemiLEDs 3535 series, though the Lumileds UV U2 line is starting to not be absurdly priced (hmm)


Like I said on reefcentral, I'll gladly be a guinea pig for a sunplus freshwater puck when you do them!


----------



## theatrus (Mar 20, 2007)

Note that the SunPlus 20 line has an identical footprint to the Luxeon C line. The "cool white" LED has a nearly identical response to the Luxeon C 90+ CRI White (also about 5800k). In fact I'm using those over an aquarium, and they look pretty nice . For these, this is just a marketing re-badge. 

The interesting SunPlus LEDs are the mixed blue/red items, which will make everything like horrible but grow plants pretty well. These are the larger SunPlus 35 size (not the C compatible 20 series).

The good news being I can just slap it on one of my Luxeon C stars or strips. Let me grab some components in the next week and take a look.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

theatrus said:


> Note that the SunPlus 20 line has an identical footprint to the Luxeon C line. The "cool white" LED has a nearly identical response to the Luxeon C 90+ CRI White (also about 5800k). In fact I'm using those over an aquarium, and they look pretty nice . For these, this is just a marketing re-badge.
> 
> The interesting SunPlus LEDs are the mixed blue/red items, which will make everything like horrible but grow plants pretty well. These are the larger SunPlus 35 size (not the C compatible 20 series).
> 
> The good news being I can just slap it on one of my Luxeon C stars or strips. Let me grab some components in the next week and take a look.


Yea, got to clear up the sunplus white a bit. May just be a "c"
I am pretty sure the "fresh fish" is not.. Well just a lower shot of the "special sauce" phosphors..

Will need a bit more work getting this cleared up..
Somewhat acedemic since we aren't talking COB's here..












> Dear Jeff,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

Those Luxeon C boards I have from you sure are nice, and that cool white on them sure does look like the sunplus. I would love to have a freshwater puck with them. My 5.5g test aquarium is always ready for new rigs


----------

