# New method(?) to start up an algae free tank without any water changes or work(really



## plantbrain

I've been toying with a few ideas that are I suppose radical to most, but not really when you think about it.

This method allows you to set the tank up flawlessly in the start up phase which is arguably the hardest and toughest phase of planted tank care.

You can grow in many species of plants such as HC, or gloss or most any nay pesky foreground plant *without any water* other than enough to soak the sediments well for 4-8 weeks first then after it's well grown in, add water and fish. You simply cover the tank with a glass lid or plastic like a terrarium, there's plenty of water in the sediment. 

By not adding the water, you can grow the plants flawlessly, no algae, no water changes every 2 to 4 days etc, no NH4, no fish uprooting things etc. The tank is also completely cycled buy the time you add the water to fill things up.

This is the Easiest method to start up a tank without dosing, water changes, any algae, completely cycled tank etc.

The first 2 months are the toughest and this avoids it all.

Just cover the tank, add light and sediment(ADA AS works great BTW and cost about the same most sediments, you can mist the plants if you use flourite black etc with a NPK and trace solution 2x a week otherwise)

You can add the taller stem plants *after* you fill the tank up and/or other plants that ADAPT FAST.

Pretty darn easy.

I made a nice rug of HC this way using nothing more than a 1" layer of ADA aqua soil, filled the water to about 7/8" depth, added more water about once every 1-2 weeks to keep it moist and after 4 weeks, the tank is entirely grown in.

No dosing, no water changes, no CO2 issues, no uprooting, no nothing. Easy as it gets.

Bacteria will cycle after about 3 weeks or so, about the time frame the rug grows in using the ADA AS. So the NH4 is now been converted to NO3 and has plenty of bacteria to keep it low.

Some will say they wanna add their fish right away, then can do the old way if they want to, but this method makes life much easier and a little patience can make the tank look very nice with virtually no work.

Not many trade offs here.
And the success rate ought to be near 100% without any issues with algae, growth etc.

I do not think there are any other methods that can come even remotely close to that for the general plant hobbyist.

Crypts have long been grown as well as swords, Anubias, hair grass, Gloss, Dwarf clover, Utricularia grammifolia, as matter of fact, most of the plants that Tropica carries are emergent grown.............

I'd wait to add most stem plants later as you add the water. Then a week later, add shrimps, algae eaters and another week, the main fish.

If you dose well, do the water changes etc, good tending of the CO2.......the system should start off and stay looking good from then on.

I think this method can make many folk's life far easier and less labor and far better results than the "water in the tank methods" to start a new tank up.

I've grown Crypts for many many years this way, but given the issues, taking the next step with the start phase of the tanks that submersed seems pretty reasonable.

Don't you think so?
Many want a nice rug of various foreground plants and this is dang easy way to get a massive rug pre rooted.

Regards,
Tom Barr


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## jaidexl




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## plantbrain

jaidexl said:


>


Hahahaha
hehehe

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## spypet

this is a very compelling approach that I will employ on my next (3rd) tank.
it will be 2'x2'x4' so starting this way will save me from getting arm cramps.
for now, I'm still learning about growing different plants and water chemistry.


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## Wasserpest

I haven't grown HC, but I wonder if there is any issue with it starting out in its emersed form, and then going through some sort of conversion.

I might try this with Marsilea one day...


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## plantbrain

I have not seen any transition issues to date.

Think about this: is a plant stressed, likely to melt etc if you uproot and transplant? Or if you merely submersed the plant?

Are the emergent grow potted plants quick to die?
No, they are fairly tough.

If you have a nice root establishment prior to submersion, this greatly enhances the ability of the plant to adapt quickly. You also have good bacterial cycling in the sediment etc.

Roots are well grown in. Leaves adapt and grow in well after that.

Given an option(which we do in fact have here, unless we place such barriers in our own way), which do you think would work better?

Roots well established, thick lush growth(very cheap to get a few small bits of HC, U grammifolia, Gloss etc and have it grow over a large area quickly and be pre rooted), no algae at all, easy as pie, well adapted, excellent bacterial colonization, no water changes or other issues, no uprooting etc..................
.... or rip the plants out of the clumps and mash those roots back into the gravel and submersed them as well?

I'll take the first option.

HC adapted very well, so did Gloss and U grammifolia.
Crypts, Swords, Sags, and most other amphibious plants=> most of the aquatic we kept are............should do well.

When you flood the tank, then they put out new leaves, but the old leaves will remain.

If you take a emergent plant and repot it, and submerse it, the older leaves tend to die.

Not so if you merely flood.

No matter how this method is sliced, it's still far easier to make a nice rug of plants prior to filling and it's so easy that it might be unsettling initially.

A simple extreme labor saving solution to the high techy woes.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## zergling

Tom, while I like your idea and seriously considering to do this with the new tank I'm getting this saturday, one thing comes to mind though..

What if your scape includes strong sloping? 

It's easy to get the lower parts wet with water, but what about the peaks? To get the higher slopes wet with water, you'll flood down the lower parts, which may or may not experience algae growth....


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## RoseHawke

Okay, I think you started this thread as a corollary to the other thread about how to make hills as I noticed your mention of this method there and was immediately intrigued. I do have a question about keeping the substrate uniformly moist in the case of 'scaping of that sort. Is it uniformly wicked up in the "high" areas of such a 'scape? Does many levels present a problem? Or would this method be better suited to a flattish or at best minimally sculpted 'scape?

edit: I see this occurred to Zergling and myself at approximately the same time!


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## Ryzilla

zergling said:


> Tom, while I like your idea and seriously considering to do this with the new tank I'm getting this saturday, one thing comes to mind though..
> 
> What if your scape includes strong sloping?
> 
> It's easy to get the lower parts wet with water, but what about the peaks? To get the higher slopes wet with water, you'll flood down the lower parts, which may or may not experience algae growth....


This was my exact thoughts. You might have to mist the aquarium daily maybe more then daily to keep the roots and leaves moist. I see how this could work with a level surface, as I have done this with HC in my 2.5g. If the degree of the slope is subtle then some foreground plants would be eigth to half submerges like dwarf hairgrass. Even HC has some height to it so the degree of the slope would have to be more subtle then that of hairgrass. 

All in all this makes sense. At the point were you add water the plants are very efficient and effective at taking up nutrients and growing. They could outcompete the algae initially making it more stable from the point of fish introduction. This also eliminates the need to pack your tank with fast growing stems like Green Hygo that you will never use in a scape. I think I am going to experiment with this when I rescape my tank in the near future.


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## fishscale

I guess the key is to keep the substrate moist, not wet. I think Ryzilla is right.


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## mistergreen

dang, I just started a 10G tank yesterday.

don't forget to keep the air in your tank really humid (a good cover)... your plants might dry up pretty quickly. 
I was trimming my anubias yesterday and the trimmed leaves dried up in matter of hours. I guess there are issues the other way too where you take submerged plants and try to grow them emersed.


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## zergling

I searched around the sfbaaps forum and found Bill Harada's (bharada) dry HC tank



Bill Harada said:


>


Based from the thread, it's a combination of several things
- Bill waters the hill a bit more
- aqua soil is very porous
- capillary action from the HC roots. Turns out the emerged HC roots deeper in the substrate.

Hills? No problem! :thumbsup:


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## Harry Muscle

This is probably a simple question to answer for people in the know  ... but would Vals work with this setup or are they considered true aquatic plants that probably won't do well ... also wouldn't they just flop over. In fact, wouldn't most tall grass like plants just flop over without the water? What about swords and such, do they have the rigitity to stand on their own?

Thanks,
Harry


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## JenThePlantGeek

Hey Harry - Vallisneria is a true aquatic and doesn't have an emersed form. It'd just flop over and crisp up. If you wanted a grassy look though, there are several other species that'd work. Sagittaria, Lilaeopsis, Haigrass, Echinodorus tenellus, those will all grow emersed. Swords also have a nice emersed form, they could stand on their own.


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## cookingnerd607

Harry muscle:



plantbrain said:


> HC adapted very well, so did Gloss and U grammifolia.
> Crypts, Swords, Sags, and most other amphibious plants=> most of the aquatic we kept are............should do wel


Tom:
do you have a difinitive list of plants that would be capable of this? I read your post a number of weeks ago about this topic and find it very intertesting and would love to observe the changes of multiple plants. The ones that you have listed that interest me are sags, hc, and anubias. Would stargrass work?


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## if_fishes_were_wishes

I have an HC mat tied to a rock sitting in a tupperware on my windowsill. The thing pearls like there's no tomorrow with water barely covering the top of the rock. Now I'm gonna plant it in some Eco-complete and lower the water. Can't wait to try it


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## original kuhli

I'll be trying this on the startup of my new tank. Great thinking. I've always wet the substrate as soon as possible to start the bacterial process (or kept it wet). Giving the plants a head start is a great idea too!


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## jaidexl

I think after a bit more time learning proper placement of different species, and checking off the ones that actually have an emmersed form, I'm going to give this a shot.


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## aquanut415

this method works great! more and more SFBAAPS folks have been fooling with this idea for a while now with great success. great way to start a HC foreground, or Utricularia graminifolia indeed.


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## Gatekeeper

Not for nothing, but this is not something new. Its a great idea and certainly something that is great to bring forward. Its really just a passive hydroponics setup. 

But props for getting this out there for informational purposes Tom. Great for plant conditioning and battling the intial algae problems.


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## 2wheelsx2

I think I'll be giving this a try with my next low-mid tech 10 gallon. Great idea.


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## fishscale

Tom, I know I've asked this before, but has this been done with a substrate other than aquasoil? I'm thinking about using SMS, but if it won't work, I'll get some AS too. Also, is dwarf hairgrass a true aquatic plant, or will it work emmersed as well?


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## original kuhli

The point of doing it this way is the following so much as I can gather:

1) Start the biological activity in the substrate. Any substrate will provide a multiplication site for beneficial bacteria. Clay based substrates will be superior to plain old rock substrates. However, the technique is beneficial regardless of substrate choice. The only possibility is that the apparent nutritional level of Aquasoil may benefit the plants in early growth. Either way it looks like a good strategy.

2) It builds a biomass thats well rooted and developed to effectively stabilize the tank when filled with water. Again, useful regardless of substrate.

Don't get caught Jonesing(http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jonesing) on the substrate choice or efficacy. Don't forget, plain old gravel works just fine.


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## James From Cali

I am surely going to try this with my own aquarium now. I wanted to get nice looking crypts that filled in nicely and have better growth. May need to try this to see if it works better than what I been doing.


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## plantbrain

The point here is to reduce the effort(no water changes, nor labor of any sort really) as well as be algae free(100% everytime).

Other sediments can work fine, if they lack NH4, NO3, PO4 etc, then you will want to add them(ex, SMS).

Soil etc works fine with sand etc as well for those unwilling/wanting a cheaper solution than to use ADA AS.

I had a tank with HC in the lab with delta sediment doing fine.
I took it out and added it to a ADA As tank 1ft sq and it grew in fast.

Since it's not new, why have not more folks described it and come forth with the idea then?

I mean, if you think about it, why wouldn't you do things this way?

Hummm...........

Growing plants emergent for horticulture is hardly new, but why the insistence on growing and starting a new tank submersed? with all the issues that surround starting a new planted tank?

Why hasn't ADA suggested it as well?
Or someone else? It's a good idea and one that would sell itself.

Does not make sense to me personally.
It's sort of obvious, but many things are like that in life.

ADA AS is nice as it has some NH4 already in it, it's relatively cheap, grows most every plant easily etc. I'd suggest using it. 20 gallon tank will run about 30-35$.

That and cheap 2x20w light works fine also, but why suggest that sand is such a great deal when folks spend 100-200$ for a light on such a tank when a 15$ light will do fine?

I mean, we can be cheap about a great many things and put our $ elsewhere, not just sand/sediments etc. Why use reflectors at all in the lights? Use the left over mylar foil potato chip bags if you wanna be cheap:thumbsup: 

Use sunlight like I do for most of the lab stuff and the HC sitting on my porch

This method works great for that also, I just sit the tanks outside(unless it gets much below 60F) and add ADA soil, weeds and wait.

No light, no electric, no dosing, no water changes, etc.
Such trade offs have little bad points and many good ones for both the techy and the DIY cheapster.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

zergling said:


> I searched around the sfbaaps forum and found Bill Harada's (bharada) dry HC tank
> 
> 
> 
> Based from the thread, it's a combination of several things
> - Bill waters the hill a bit more
> - aqua soil is very porous
> - capillary action from the HC roots. Turns out the emerged HC roots deeper in the substrate.
> 
> Hills? No problem! :thumbsup:


Yes, I have a "dry" tank like this sitting here.
However, fill the sucker up.
Add fish, filter and you have the tank looking nice.

I'm not trying to promote terrariums here, I'm trying to suggest a nice method to start a tank up and have it hit the ground running.

Dry tanks, emergent grown plants etc are nothing "new", using that technique to start up a submersed tank is however "new" ....it seems.

I've yet to find any references suggesting the above.
Wasabi, dry tanks, emergent growth etc.

Seems like a logical extension to me.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Gatekeeper

Tom, I hope you didn't take what I said wrong. I was actually complimenting you on utilizing an existing technique that is simple and effective! It was great that you pointed it out and I am all over it. trying it out as we speak in a 10 gallon...lol!

One thing I did want to ask though, for soils that are inert, how about the addition of root tabs to give the intital nutrients that AS has. Or possibly saturating the little water in the tank with NPK?


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## RoseHawke

Tom, I think the reason more people don't do this is because _most _people come at planted tanks from a fishkeeping background and not the other way around. They're just used to keeping a tank full of water for the inhabitants. They're used to thinking of it as an aquarium, a tank full of water. People coming at it from a vivarium/terrarium background would probably come from the other direction as it seems more "normal" to them to start out mostly dry and then fill the sucker up with water. I want to do this, but I'll have to find somewhere to move the fish to first. So far I have resisted "MTS" :hihi:, well, mostly anyway. I've managed to keep it to a 55 and a 10, but if I do this all the fishies will have to live somewhere else for a while.


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## Daniel*Swords

Great suggestion, Tom!

However, if you have blue-green algae (ok, it's a cyanobacteria) in the house, it's easy to get the new tank contaminated. I've BGA growing here and there in my emergent swordplant pots. Any suggestions how to get rid of it?

Not all sags seem to do so well emersed: the dwarf sag (often sold as _S. teres_, though seemingly _S. demersa_) hasn't grown well emersed for me.


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## plantbrain

gmccreedy said:


> Tom, I hope you didn't take what I said wrong. I was actually complimenting you on utilizing an existing technique that is simple and effective! It was great that you pointed it out and I am all over it. trying it out as we speak in a 10 gallon...lol!
> 
> One thing I did want to ask though, for soils that are inert, how about the addition of root tabs to give the intital nutrients that AS has. Or possibly saturating the little water in the tank with NPK?


Yep, adding a spray of hydroponic type solution, eg hoaglands etc, or your own EI liquid based stuff etc would work fine.

The other option is to simply add a nice rich 10X concentrated solution to the water used to soak the sediment.

I have not tried that, however there is no good reason it would not work well.
I think a lot of folks will try the method now.

I think it has broad application for both low techy folks and soil based even non CO2 types, as well as the obvious high techy CO2 folks as well.

By doing this with a non CO2 approach, or Excel, the tank with soil will be pre mineralized already..............the NH4 will be well cycled.........so far far fewer issues and a nice foreground on a non CO2 tank, often a rare sight.

Same for a CO2 enriched tank use soil as a sediment.
There are many types of sediments possible here.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

RoseHawke said:


> Tom, I think the reason more people don't do this is because _most _people come at planted tanks from a fishkeeping background and not the other way around. They're just used to keeping a tank full of water for the inhabitants. They're used to thinking of it as an aquarium, a tank full of water. People coming at it from a vivarium/terrarium background would probably come from the other direction as it seems more "normal" to them to start out mostly dry and then fill the sucker up with water. I want to do this, but I'll have to find somewhere to move the fish to first. So far I have resisted "MTS" :hihi:, well, mostly anyway. I've managed to keep it to a 55 and a 10, but if I do this all the fishies will have to live somewhere else for a while.


I think you are correct, but we have plenty of emergent growth folks as well in the hobby. I'm one of them too

I just wonder why it did not dawn on me or someone else a long long time ago. I'm a bit ashamed of my own self:icon_redf 

Fortunately, I found several good solutions to MTS.

1.Do aquariums for other folks.
2. The tanks you have, make them top of the line in design and placement in the house.
3. Plan, plan and plan. Stick to the plan and goals set.
4. Large garbage cans make good fish holding containers for awhile while you work on the main tanks.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

Daniel*Swords said:


> Great suggestion, Tom!
> 
> However, if you have blue-green algae (ok, it's a cyanobacteria) in the house, it's easy to get the new tank contaminated. I've BGA growing here and there in my emergent swordplant pots. Any suggestions how to get rid of it?
> 
> Not all sags seem to do so well emersed: the dwarf sag (often sold as _S. teres_, though seemingly _S. demersa_) hasn't grown well emersed for me.


BGA?
Muhahaha!

Easy, 3 day blackout.
Or, dissolve a EM tablet in a 500ml solution and spray it or pour the solution, or crumble a pill near the area infested.

You have a solution.

Sag's have quite different emergent forms vs submersed forms, I do not think they would do so well with this method. While swords do this also, they and Crypts are more adaptable.

I recently did this method with Crypt "green gecko" and it works very nicely.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## spypet

here's a clever idea to help people concerned with misting & humidity in a low water tank;


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## Daniel*Swords

plantbrain said:


> BGA?
> Muhahaha!
> 
> Easy, 3 day blackout.


Indeed! 
Though, easier said than done when you have house full of swords in pots. 
I guess my only hope would be erythromycine as you suggested and I have used it before. It's just that I'd have to use it on everything at once! Oh well, one of these days...


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## plantbrain

You only have to cover the sediment with black trash bags to do the black out, it can be a local area. You can still allow the leaves to poke up. Many folks do not have access to antibiotics outside the USA etc or do not want to use such methods.

Spypet, you need not do that, it's not bad etc, but does not help, simply covering the tank works great and is far cheaper, simpler and works just as well.

No need to make a simple idea more complicated, but I do understand the urge to do so

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## RoseHawke

plantbrain said:


> ". . . No need to make a simple idea more complicated, but I do understand the urge to do so. . .


Ummm, yes, I think this is why so many of us are in love with the technological nightmare that resides under some of our tanks :hihi: . . . (pointing a finger at myself here .)


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## plantbrain

Using sadomascistic rational for logic is not my cup of tea, however, some seem to think they must do that to get results.

Why suffer in the start?
Why spend a lot and plant a ton of tiny pieces when it can grow in very well and not cost nearly as much? You do not even need a light, just place the tank, sediment and plants with lid outside in the sun. As iwugami styles are increasingly popular these days, this makes their cultivation extremely easy, about like that of "Chia pet". The hardest part is arranging the rocks. 

For that style, this method is a shoe in.

Water changes need not be tough either, yet some are still part of the bucket brigade. The High Tech "Hose" method to drain and fill an aquarium has not yet reach some parts of the world the way some talk. Nor automated water changers, nor hard plumbed drain and fill lines, I guess indoor plumbing is something new to some folks? I hate water changes, testing, algae etc as much as anyone else. I'd rather reduce labor, cost and make things simpler, cleaner and more repeatable/successful.

Reminds me of Atlas, pushing the massive rock up the hill by hand for all eternity .........instead of getting a rope and a pulley with a counter weight.
Seems Atlas could had used some of Archimedes and Euclid's talent:thumbsup: 

Now I use to use buckets myself, I use to test a lot, I use place a lot of stuff in my way needlessly..........But I try to not do the same mistakes again and again.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## zergling

LOL I'm still part of the bucket brigade :hihi: mainly because I keep on forgetting to get a hose long enough to get to the bathroom and to the tank :redface: which is fine, I need the exercise :flick:


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## Mangala

Just thought I'd post a thought - if you were to start up a new tank using old gravel (say you have tahitian moon sand like me) you could easily start this up using the old gravel, and you'd not have to do much with nitrates. I say this because last winter, I emptied a bunch of my old gravel into a 5 gallon pail and set it outside on my porch. (7th story in an apartment building) and wouldn't you know it, but come spring the tree seeds are blowing around on the wind and some of them landed in my bucket (which I had forgotten about) and then I noticed there are little plants sprouting out of my gravel! I'm not helping them in any way, but there are definitely tiny trees growing in my bucket outside, taking nutrients from old fish poo and getting watered by the Seattle rain. 

I guess this post has only to add an additional note to why you want to put a cover on your tank when you put it outside in the sun. 

I like this idea, and maybe if I were thinking about it more would have come up with it on my own. I've been watching these trees grow for a while now...

Thanks Tom for starting some buzz.


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## aquanut415

plantbrain said:


> Since it's not new, why have not more folks described it and come forth with the idea then?
> 
> I mean, if you think about it, why wouldn't you do things this way?
> 
> Hummm...........
> 
> Growing plants emergent for horticulture is hardly new, but why the insistence on growing and starting a new tank submersed? with all the issues that surround starting a new planted tank?
> 
> Why hasn't ADA suggested it as well?
> Or someone else? It's a good idea and one that would sell itself.


the only problem i have with this way of starting a tank is that not all plants seem to convert over to submerged form from emersed as easily. some plants look absolutely nothing alike when grown emersed vs submerged and the time it takes for the plants to convert, if they will do so at all is significant. 

for me, this is mainly a way to fill in the foreground with some of the pickier plants (HC, Utricularia... actually those are the only 2) 

just as an example, grow out some downoi emersed and try and get it to convert back to submerged growth. it takes A LOT of time, more than a few weeks. additionally, the emersed form of downoi looks nothing like the submerged form, they have altogether different growth habits which will make the use of the plant even more challenging in the aquascape.

i think its a useful practice, but i only see its value for a few of the plants we use, and for some plants its probably only making more/new challenges.


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## plantbrain

aquanut415 said:


> the only problem i have with this way of starting a tank is that not all plants seem to convert over to submerged form from emersed as easily. some plants look absolutely nothing alike when grown emersed vs submerged and the time it takes for the plants to convert, if they will do so at all is significant.
> 
> for me, this is mainly a way to fill in the foreground with some of the pickier plants (HC, Utricularia... actually those are the only 2)
> 
> just as an example, grow out some downoi emersed and try and get it to convert back to submerged growth. it takes A LOT of time, more than a few weeks. additionally, the emersed form of downoi looks nothing like the submerged form, they have altogether different growth habits which will make the use of the plant even more challenging in the aquascape.
> 
> i think its a useful practice, but i only see its value for a few of the plants we use, and for some plants its probably only making more/new challenges.


Yes, I agree.
However, once the plants have established root systems, they are much easier to convert in the tank.

Why?
Less resources required since the roots are already present, established enzymatic and biochemical pathways for nutrients(not really nearly as present in the leaves since they are in a nutrient free zone other than CO2, so the plant will allocate them to the root zones and slowly transition as needed once submersion occurs) and no transplant shock.

Crypts, most foreground plants etc, Anubias, quite a few weeds.

But the back ground stem plants, Rotolas, Vals etc, these had little transplant shock issue and grow fast anyway.

For Downoi, yes, likely not a good candidate.
But it's pretty easy to grow and not hard to plant etc.
Hummm......I wonder if it would grow well at the lab outdoors in the vaults?
Erios do well with this method though.

While some will go through changes in the transition, they often come in that way to start with(hydroponically grown), and we can do a couple of prunings to remove the older growth, no big deal I think.

I have a few Erios now(not E. setaceum etc, E cinerum) since I have no other home for them as of yet. It's also a nice method for over flow plants you do not want to get rid of or want to grow out a bit. I know Jim (fearless leader) in the club did this a lot with HC till the club was saturated with the weed
You just need a tank, lid and some sediment, soil or ADA As etc, sunlight works fine.

Still, given the popularity of the iwugami style layouts and nano tanks etc, this is a no brainer method all the way around. Many complain about getting the rug established prior and spend a lot effort to do so.

Even if there's only say 20% in the foregound you want to plant, letting it do so via this method ensures good establishment, then you pack the rest of the tank with stems, Vals etc or downoi.

You and I also might not have as much trouble growing a lot of plants, but others do and neither of us like the tank maintenance issues if we can avoid them. *I see no reason to torture myself.

From the high tech-er to the non CO2 low tech-er, it's a good method all the way around and can be applied widely for many applications.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## territhemayor

Can we see some pics? I just wanna see how the tank turned out.

Thanks, intersting, if only I knew this yesterday WHEN I SET UP ANOTHER TANK


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## mpodolan

Hopefully this isn't hijacking this thread, but after reading through this, I decided to try this to help propagate HC for the foreground for my 50 gallon. My tank is already filled and has been running for about a month or so, so I decided to simply take some of the substrate (Schulz aquasoil) out from the foreground where I had been attempting to grow some HC and put it in a pan, plant the HC, and place a 36watt light above it. I put some of the tank water, which I fertilize using EI method, in the pan to make the substrate moist. I figure that if I can get the HC to form a thick mat, I can transfer it, along with the substrate enmeshed in the roots, to the foreground. Do you guys think this will work? Also, how much fertilizer should I add to the water/substrate (I dose using dry ferts)? any input would be appreciated.


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## plantbrain

I do not suggest submersion of the leaves at all, just the sediment/roots etc.
ADA As works very well.

Sediment such as clay wetland soil worked very well too.
Capillary action, the sediments themselves, the moisture from placing a glass semi sealed lid on there etc allows plenty of moisture.

So you may go very low tech and cheap here if you wish, ADA As is certainly not required, however a nutrient rich sediment is.

Since there is no fish or water column, you can dose very rich, most hydroponic solution concentrations work fine. They are quite rich. 

See here for standard "Hoagland's solution":

http://www.tre.umn.edu/teaching/Nursery_Management_I/Hydroponics/Hydroponics_Lecture_2003.htm

http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200201/msg01106.html

We have a long ways to go before we see K+ blocking Ca or NO3 melting any plant............

Some seem to think so however. 
It's not the same as leaf exposure, but the concentrations inside the plant and the leaves as well as the root zones are exposed to very high concentrations in such solutions.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## mpodolan

Thanks for the info, Tom. I'll mix up a solution and try it. i didn't submerge any of the leaves, just added enough water to make the substrate wet. I'm looking forward to experimenting with this method!


----------



## plantbrain

Just remember it takes about 1-2 weeks at least for the roots to get established for many of these species.

They need enough moisture, nutrients and water to make it until then.
Once the roots establish, the weed will take off and grow easily and rapidly.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Robert H

I find this ironic because a few months ago several people contended emersed grown HC was more difficult to grow out submersed, and people shouldn't buy potted HC for that reason. This is another example showing that line of reasoning is bunk.

I already do this with HC and H. micranthemoides, but you can still have algae in an inch of water or even just a "wet" substrate. I have had both hair algae and green dust algae on wet gravel. I mist the plants with water mixed with NPK and trace, (Rex Grigg dry ferts) in a very diluted solution. 

If you want to carpet the bottom of your tank, I can see doing this, but otherwise what is the point?


----------



## aquanut415

the potted HC rooted in rockwool does not transition to submerged culture well at all.


----------



## plantbrain

Robert H said:


> I find this ironic because a few months ago several people contended emersed grown HC was more difficult to grow out submersed, and people shouldn't buy potted HC for that reason. This is another example showing that line of reasoning is bunk.
> 
> I already do this with HC and H. micranthemoides, but you can still have algae in an inch of water or even just a "wet" substrate. I have had both hair algae and green dust algae on wet gravel. I mist the plants with water mixed with NPK and trace, (Rex Grigg dry ferts) in a very diluted solution.
> 
> If you want to carpet the bottom of your tank, I can see doing this, but otherwise what is the point?


Many folks want a small part or a larger part of their tank with such carpeting plants, getting a tank to start right packed without any foreground plants/space etc is easy, but does not appeal to many scapes.

The point is to start the scape off nicely, whether you have a very open low plant biomass design such as the iwugami rock and HC, gloss, hairgrass, U grammifolia, Erio, Dwarf clover etc etc type set ups, which if you have not noticed, are quite popular and very common these days, especially on nano tanks, but this also works fine on larger 50-100 gallon tanks ands reduces the work for this break in period.

Killing algae is quite easy in emergent tanks however.
Blackouts are pretty effective.
EM sprays are good as well for BGA
Temp flooding with H2O2, Excel etc at fairly dilute concentrations works well also. Or plain chlorinated tap as well.

You can also allow the water level to decline and mist the plants a little , but the algae will die back some, then you can hit it.

You can do a simple combo also, flood the tank some, add Excel etc, blackout for 3 days of this, then drain.

Copper also works if you keep it at 0.2ppm and spray in on, wait 5 min or so, then flood to rinse. Another method is to flood with low pH(4.5-5) water for 30 min. This is very good (copper) for Crypts.

I also have ulterior motives several steps ahead.
This also shows that NH4, not NO3 is the cause for algae and CO2 is only part of the issue(as varying CO2 can reduce the NH4 uptake greatly leaving enough NH4 behind for algae spores)

If you do this method without any NH4 source, you get very little algae also.
This takes out the CO2 part out in some ways and isolates the NH4. Adding non limiting CO2 also does this for submersed culture.
I try and look at several things, not just one or what the general dogma may suggest.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Brian A

Would adding some extra CO2 to this closed environment help growth in any way? Say adding a yeast DIY bottle with an airline going into the tank.


----------



## aquanut415

yes it would flash.. helps a lot.


----------



## Madfish

I just started a tank this way with HC. Im looking forward to seeing it when its done. Thanks for telling some of us that have never tryed it that way.


----------



## plantbrain

I'll have some pics up in a few days.
Start to finish type etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## eon17

what about babytears?


----------



## fishscale

baby tears is a common (often confused) name for either HC or HM. I have seen both labeled as such in different stores.


----------



## crazy loaches

Thanks for sharing this concept with us Tom. I happen to be starting up a tank very soon myself, but I am unsure if this is the best way for my tank. I am a bit confused though, I assume this is best implemented when purchasing new plants that are already grown immersed from the grower? I mean, most my plants will be mature plants from my previous tanks, and most are fairly tall... things like large crinum (all 3 common varieties), crypt spiralis & balansae, etc. many of my plants wont be in the soil either so I know they wouldnt work, java fern, bolbitis, mosses, but of course those can be added later, so long as have a good idea of were all the driftwood will go (lots of manzanita that I'm not sure would stay put unless the tanks full of water). I am going to try marsilia quadrifolia as a groundcover, so that would work well with the method, and blyxa japonica and possibly dwarf sag too but not sure about it. But overall I am guessing only a few of my plants would work with this method... plus I am using pool filter sand so that would not be ideal I assume. What do you think? maybe it would be worth it just for the marsilia to give it a good chance to root.


----------



## plantbrain

I took HC, Utric, Erio and took them from submersed state to this method with issue.

Just get a decent seal on the top to prevent the plants from drying out the first few days.

It needs to be humid.

Some folks in the past have used vapor barriers(just clear plastic) right above the plants and left the rest of the tank open.

On larger tanks, this might work better. Or if you have a complex hardscape, and just a limited area for the plants, you can seal off just a smaller area for the pre grow in.

Misting the plants with a weak DIY nutrient solution and DI water change help the first week or so I suppose. You do not have any nutrient sources in the sediment, so account for that.

ADA As is pretty good unless you really want to do a soil sand mixture etc for less $.

I'm not sure Blyxa would do well, Sag's will go emergent growth forms also.

This method is namely for those plants that are not easy to get established, HC, Gloss, Utric's, clover, hair grass etc.
The other plants grow in fast and have little issue.

Riccia, Sag's, Ferns, moss, stems, etc.........

Since most tank layouts have some foreground cover, doing this helps start the tank's sediment as well.

You can also cycle the filter with mulm from another tank or start it running 
on the other tank if available. If not, take the filter and place in/out in a small bucket and add NH3 to do fishless and tankless cycling. After 3-4 weeks running at rich NH3 levels in the bucket, the filter ought to be some what cycled. Adding a pinch of soil from outside to the bucket helps start things off well too. Why run a filter in the tank itself(dealing with algae if the lights are added, and doing large water changes to remove the NO3 leftovers, or NO2 etc) if someone does FC? Do it in a small bucket.

Another common sense brain slapper

Regards, 
Tom Barr




Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## clddleopard

plantbrain said:


> Reminds me of Atlas, pushing the massive rock up the hill by hand for all eternity .........instead of getting a rope and a pulley with a counter weight.
> Seems Atlas could had used some of Archimedes and Euclid's talent:thumbsup:
> 
> Now I use to use buckets myself, I use to test a lot, I use place a lot of stuff in my way needlessly..........But I try to not do the same mistakes again and again.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Atlas held the world on his shoulders. Sisyphus pushed the rock up the hill. I'm a crap aquatic gardener, so I'll chime in on what I do know... literature!


----------



## plantbrain

clddleopard said:


> Atlas held the world on his shoulders. Sisyphus pushed the rock up the hill. I'm a crap aquatic gardener, so I'll chime in on what I do know... literature!


I knew it was one of them silly Greek fellers the Gods had it for.
Thanks, now I'll not make that mistake again either Been awhile since I read Greek and Latin. I do remember being sick of reading about Caesar in Gaul and remember Oedipus quite well. Took forever to read.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

FYI, this method will not cure folk's algae issues once you fill the tank up............

No dry method will........

It can help grow in a lot of plants for the larger % foregrund pklant species easily and get them going/well rooted.

If you cannot grow them with this method after you flood the tank, then it's not the method's, it's still your own fault, most likely with CO2(for HC and many of the other species).

The plants can clearly grow with out any nutrients added to the water column, because they grow just fine in air and wet soil.

The only difference we find is that once you flood the tank, gas exchange issues with the leaves(not the roots, they are saturated already and have been all along), in other words, CO2.

I used this method to illustrate how to isolate a CO2 issue as well.

That's the only difference with flooded vs non flood plants if you have a super lean water column and nutrient rich sediment.



























Note, these tanks are just sitting outside in the shade. ADA AS,. just enough water to flood the sediment up to the lowest sediment level, just use a glass lid etc. VERY simple. The other two got sold.
I have another that's filling it decently and I'll get a pic sometime soon.






Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## zergling

Tom, how long will the tank on the 2nd pic take to get the HC to cover the entire substrate's surface area?


----------



## plantbrain

3-4 weeks

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## brotherd

I like it.I like it a lot.My 55 is literally choked with plants and fish now and I am in the process of moving to a 180 soon.This would be an awesome way to start some plants that failed in the 55 as they were outcompeted for light by everything else.I am still imagining the possibilities!Thanks Tom!:thumbsup:


----------



## fishscale

Tom, I am about to start an HC foreground in a 55 with this method. Any last words of advice?


----------



## plantbrain

Just keep things warm, well lit and moist?
That's about all really.

I've used delta soil and ADA As thus far but garden soil and peat and sand also work etc, flourite + liquids ought to do fine as well for many species.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## garuf

I live in the uk and my house gets quiet cool at night will this affect it what sort of temperature would you mean by warm and would just a glass lid be enough to keep things moist? I really want to try this on my new cube especially since I have had such bad luck with HC


----------



## mujacko2002

sir Barr,
Mabuhay!

Is this method only good for HC or mostly carpeting plants? Thanks for the pictures because i am a very visual person i understand things more when i see it :redface: do you have other picture of plants using this method?

thank you so much in advance for any response

Godbless


----------



## scolley

I'm late to this conversation Tom, but I think this is an outstanding suggestion!

Cudos! Thanks for posting another great idea! roud:


----------



## Brian A

I liked the idea so much i started up a new tank to try it out. Is very simple to set up and looks like it will work very well. The only problem i have had is the fact that most of the HC i ordered arrived as green mush. Only one very small part has servived but seems to have taken off after only 4 days. 

Thanks for the info Tom! :thumbsup:


----------



## trfjason

Tom,

Is it possible to use Flourite Black + ferts to grow HC using your method? I want to try this so I can grow my HC faster.


----------



## SCMurphy

I've done this in nano tanks with:
HC,
glosso,
sag subulata
Marsilia minuta,
Ranalisma rostrata,
Eleocharis parvulis

Works great if you can keep the humidity up. You actually can get by with less light when starting the plants this way.


----------



## trfjason

SCMurphy said:


> I've done this in nano tanks with:
> HC,
> glosso,
> sag subulata
> Marsilia minuta,
> Ranalisma rostrata,
> Eleocharis parvulis
> 
> Works great if you can keep the humidity up. You actually can get by with less light when starting the plants this way.


What substrate did you use? Aquasoil?


----------



## defdac

If you use a plastic/glass lid on the aquarium, how fast does the air in the tank get CO2-depleted?


----------



## SCMurphy

trfjason said:


> What substrate did you use? Aquasoil?


I used a topsoil/clay mix capped with Tahitian moon sand or T-grade 3M ColorQuartz. I don't have any problem with the idea of using AquaSoil for this. I use AS in my emersed set up for my crypts, mixed with some other stuff. I have HC and Utric gramnifolia and U. sandersoni as '_****akusa_' or accessory plants, bonsai gardening term. They fill up a pot around the crypts and reach for the next pot over.


----------



## plantbrain

SCMurphy said:


> I've done this in nano tanks with:
> HC,
> glosso,
> sag subulata
> Marsilia minuta,
> Ranalisma rostrata,
> Eleocharis parvulis
> 
> Works great if you can keep the humidity up. You actually can get by with less light when starting the plants this way.


Sean, as usual, I ulterior motives with this method:redface: 
Namely Crypt emergent and other methods, hehe.

Good to know about the Sag subulata.

ADA AS or sand+ washed and screened lake sediment with high clay content works best IME. Peat also added works well for some species.

You may use Flourite etc + KNO3 etc........this works very well for many plants I grew emergent about 10 years ago.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

defdac said:


> If you use a plastic/glass lid on the aquarium, how fast does the air in the tank get CO2-depleted?


Huh?

CO2 diffuses very fast in air vs liquid, there's no real advantage to adding it IME/IMO unless you are running a more hydroponic method and you should not seal things off entirely anyway(thus the air can and does flow out and CO2 is produced by the bacteria, CO2 is heavier than air BTW............so it does not escape out so easily.)

Also, in order for bacteria to grow well, they need O2, adding CO2 gas will suffocate the aerobes.........if you add a little and blast air in there at the same time a to get about 1000-1500ppm, then this works well. Folks mess things up when dealing with gas in air vs the water though.

My advice is to not worry about it.
This method works very well without taking this added extra step.
Most hot houses and green houses keep things moist, and blast the air in when it gets too hot, the heat from lighting generally causes plenty of that, a small hole etc works fine or leaks in the lids etc.

What is gained from adding CO2 correctly to emergent growth is not that much in our case. This method is much more about starting a fish tank up with plants, which needs the bacteria(aerobic) as well.

It's also something any hobbyists can and may do.
You can have several little or large tanks starting out this way. Then flood.

No matter how you slice the transitional phase to submersed culture, this method has many more advantages............

It has few negative trade offs.

And it gets folks thinking about emergent Crypt culture and other aspects such Paludariums etc.

Think outside the box, outside the water, by well...........getting outside:idea:

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## defdac

The reason I ask is that when I've grown aquatic plant emersed in small "sealed" greenhouse boxes it seems they grow very much faster if I breathe into the box every day - or at least open the box for a while each day.


----------



## plantbrain

defdac said:


> The reason I ask is that when I've grown aquatic plant emersed in small "sealed" greenhouse boxes it seems they grow very much faster if I breathe into the box every day - or at least open the box for a while each day.


Sure, that allows fresh air in, a small hole for air to exchange and a misting works nicely as well.

I think Paul had suggested adding CO2 from a breather bag about 10 years ago.
That should not hurt, but adding pure CO2 in there will likely do more harm than good.

And a little circulation/gas flow does help.
We get better growth of plants in growth chambers when we use fans inside to produce gas flow.


Regards, 

Tom Barr


----------



## mpa90

Okay, you got me. Thanks to this thread (and especially Tom) I am trying this out on a small nano. I am trying the new flourite black and planted it with HC and dwarf hairgrass. I covered the lid with plastic wrap and its sitting on my window sill as I type. I'll also pull back the plastic once in a while to get some fresh air in there and add water as needed.
Sorry, but no photos. Can't wait to see the results!


----------



## fishscale

Can someone give me some suggestions of what I should soak my SMS in to use this method? SMS lacks nutrients, so it was stated that it should be soaked in a fertilizer solution before planting, but I am not sure how much of what to put into the solution.


----------



## trfjason

mpa90 said:


> Okay, you got me. Thanks to this thread (and especially Tom) I am trying this out on a small nano. I am trying the new flourite black and planted it with HC and dwarf hairgrass. I covered the lid with plastic wrap and its sitting on my window sill as I type. I'll also pull back the plastic once in a while to get some fresh air in there and add water as needed.
> Sorry, but no photos. Can't wait to see the results!


Let us know about the progress. I am interested in knowing if Flourite Black works well for growing plants this method.


----------



## mpa90

I also forgot to mention that I crushed up some root tabs and sprinkeled it under the flourite.
It's been two days and nothing has died yet....Thats always a good sign!


----------



## plantbrain

I just got back from Indiana and even outside in ter colder 50'sF the plants did pretty well.

I'll post some pics of the 3 gal nano for folks.
It'll be for sale also since I am no longer wanting to keep nano tanks after 6 years.

I'll have one ready to fill and another about 3 weeks behind, all HC.
I also have a neat antique 10X10 x3" metaframe steel framed tank, well suited for this or another similar terriarum or emergent tank for sale as well.

I have a left over's Anubias tank, 10 gallon normal tank, with ADA AS I'm trying out using this method.

As Anubias are notorious for BBA and other algae, this method should help a lot. I'm about 10 days in and things are looking very well. These are donor plants............plants that where scraps, algae covered, bits and pieces left from folks that did not love them...........I took the poor orphans in, gave them all they needed, and they are doing well.

You can really pack a lot of Anubias in a 10 gallon and simply sit it near a window or outside, they do well at low light like a lot of the indoor house plants.

I'll eventually sell this once it is looking good.

Cost: tank:10$, plants where donations, ADA AS: maybe 1/2 a bag.
Add 2x15w lights, a filter, maybe a heater, and you are good to go.
Packed tank full of Anubias.

Algae free.

I do have a question.
Once this tank is filled and the plants look nice etc, can I take a pic and call that a scape?

I mean it has water etc, and it's only a temporary set up, like all nice scapes before to some degree, then tear it down and start another?

This basically removes all the aquarist aspects from the scaping competitions and allows you to it terrestrially and only add water/fish at the last minute.

Is this fair?

The way things are often done and prepared for open houses, pics etc, I'd have to say it is fair.

So even if you brand new/stink etc at aquarium keeping, but can grow weeds in a dry tank, you could potentially win and beat well experienced aquarist with high tech stuff.

Oh that would hurt...........

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## BentZero

Hello all. This is my first post. I've been lurking lately because I'm about to start my first planted tank. Actually, my first freshwater tank. I'm converting my reef tank. This method sounds very promising. I've got a couple of questions. I'll be using SMS for my substrate with root tabs for nutrients. Will this be suitable for this technique. Can I also start the tank with some clover using this method? I'll be using a Rena XP2 filter. Should I cycle the filter while the HC is growing. Lastly, what brand of product do you use when mixing your solution for the mist water? I'm a plant tank noob, so all of the abbreviations are foreign to me.


----------



## plantbrain

Since you are using root tabs, they tend not to have the NO3 and PO4 and some/most have some K+.

So you will need to add these.

Root tabs tend to have traces, K+ etc.

This method requires all the nutrients to be there........no water column sediments, nor fish waste etc will contribute........

For cycling the filter, you really do not need to do this.
Not for planted or unplanted tanks actually.
We never did this 30 years ago when I worked at the LFS. 

Things where fine. 
We just took dirty sand from an established tank and that seeded things.
Plants make it even easier: they remove NH4 directly...........and after 3-4 weeks of plant growth before you add water, the bacteria in the sediments are very well established, the plant tank is not just the Xp2 filter etc..........*the plants are the filter.*

In reef terms the plants are: the refugium, live rock and DBS all rolled together.

A simple method if you want to cycle a filter with NH4, and a much better method: use a small bucket and add NH3 to that and run the filter in that, never your main tank.


The 4-5 th(?) method to never fret over a cycling tank: use zeolite. You do not have this option due to Na+ vs NH4+ preference at the binding sites in marine tanks, however, it's super for removing NH4 in FW.

You can recharge the zeolite by soaking in a brine solution and then returning to service if you wish. Zeo sand is also available at most pool supply places, about 15-254 a 50 lb bag etc. After the media absorbs the NH4, the bacteria colonize and oxidize it. It typically last about 30 days before being "spent"......... which is also the same time it takes to have the bacteria colonize...............

So you have bacteria already using this method I described here, you can add zeolite, you can do water changes after, you have lots of plants from day one with lots of roots, if you need N, add KNO3, not NH3 for the plants.
It's(KNO3) much less toxic and supplies N easily and safely.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## ingg

Tom, does HC in an aquarium in a south facing window sound like it works? I'm trying to figure out the light levels.

Just brought home a new aquarium, and went and got a bag of black flourite sand, and one of the fine geavel, to fill in a 33g cube. 

I don't have a light for the setup yet, the 20" is a little bit of a bugger to light - working through options. But I can sit the tank in a wide open morning room that faces south - light through the windows adequate?


----------



## Left C

ingg said:


> ...I don't have a light for the setup yet, the 20" is a little bit of a bugger to light - working through options...


 Can you use a twin PC bulb 20" fixture?

Have you thought about using the 20" 2x40w Orbit fixture Model 1020 by Current? I'm using one. The front dual actinic bulb has been replaced by an ADA 36w square pin 8000K NA (PC) Lamp. The rear bulb is the stock dual daylight 6700K/10,000K bulb. I really like Orbit fixtures. Their reflectors are practically as good as the AHSupply reflectors plus they come with white moon lights. The front bulb and the fan work together. The rear bulb works independently of the fan and can be used for a noon burst if you want. The front and rear bulbs have separate light switches and power cords. The moon lights have a separate light cord with a transformer, but no switch. I use the Coralife dual timer power strip with mine. You also use two of the ADA 8000K bulbs if you want. They are excellent!


----------



## plantbrain

FYI, HC does need massive light, it will grow faster with more light, but it is certainly not required.

I've had it at 25-30micromols/m^2/sec and it did pretty good.
That's pretty low light.

As far as this method, low light works also, just not as fast.
I've not met many plants that need high light FYI also........I have however met many folks that are impatient and rush and skimp.............

Then complain about things later due to their own impatience....
Gloss and most foreground plants all fall into this group.
This method will grow these plants faster...if you use more light or sun light, then they will grow slower when you add the FL's and fill it. 

If you want slower stable growth, less light is better, add CO2 etc and nutrients. The ADA soil as far as a commercial brand appears to be the easiest to work with for most folks. You need to add N, P, K other wise with SMs, flourite etc.

Plants need the NPK......ADA AS has it, EC, flourite etc does not.
To start a small nano, sunlight works fine south facing etc, perhaps some partial shade etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## mistergreen

if you're growing the plants completely emerse, might as well use potting soil as a substrate.. And if you want to do a natural planted tank, use regular top soil in the bottom and top it off with aquasoil (sms, shultz' etc..) or small gravel.


----------



## plantbrain

Well, here's a 3 gal, it's been in the low 50's F this last week or so so the cold took a bit of a toll.










The slope is about 4" total, so folks that assumed the slope does not work, sorry 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## BentZero

So in order to get my NPK to the right level do I just dose a 5g bucket to the manufacturers specs and pour in as much water as needed? I'm using SMS as substrate.


----------



## Brian A

Tom, 
How did you like Indiana? We just got hit with a cold spell, looks like you missed it. I hope you were able to experience some Hoosier hospitality!


----------



## plantbrain

I'm from Indiana, brother in law shot and killed himself. It was not a fun trip.
Sad. He had a 125 Gallon reef tank I got him into that had to be broken down.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Brian A

Oh, my!! I am so sorry to hear that. My prayers go out to you, your sister and family.


----------



## A Hill

Tom, I'm surprised sooo many people never realized this. I had thought this was "common" knowledge to many people, that HC and such tanks are easy to start "dry" its done a LOT in Asia, MM's friend has done it and so did a few people at Killies.com This was on big 100g+ tanks. 

You brought up an excellent point on the root systems though, never thought of that. I would assume the crypts would die off like normal... I'm going to be rescaping my 55g soon and might try doing this with the crypts beforehand and then finishing scaping it. 

I actually had planned on growing HC/DHG in a terrarium tank with thin glass over the summer like this but just didn't get to it since I wasn't home much.



fishscale said:


> I'll get some AS too. Also, is dwarf hairgrass a true aquatic plant, or will it work emmersed as well?


This has been one of the most common ways to "farm" hairgrass ever more or less, so yeah it works amazingly well.




plantbrain said:


> I'll have one ready to fill and another about 3 weeks behind, all HC.
> I also have a neat antique 10X10 x3" metaframe steel framed tank, well suited for this or another similar terriarum or emergent tank for sale as well.


How would that plant ship to RI? I have a nano tank thats like that (nothing in it) And if the price isn't bad would love to pick up another awesome tank like that. PM me?



plantbrain said:


> I do have a question.
> Once this tank is filled and the plants look nice etc, can I take a pic and call that a scape?
> 
> I mean it has water etc, and it's only a temporary set up, like all nice scapes before to some degree, then tear it down and start another?
> 
> This basically removes all the aquarist aspects from the scaping competitions and allows you to it terrestrially and only add water/fish at the last minute.
> 
> Is this fair?
> 
> The way things are often done and prepared for open houses, pics etc, I'd have to say it is fair.
> 
> So even if you brand new/stink etc at aquarium keeping, but can grow weeds in a dry tank, you could potentially win and beat well experienced aquarist with high tech stuff.
> 
> Oh that would hurt...........
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Tom, that is allowed in the AGA scaping competitions. There was one tank I remember specifically that did almost the same thing, but it was a 100% WC every day. It was that nano cube where the back left corner had the plants and it was a 1/4 circle from the corner with the white sand in the rest of it. ADA style tank. 

So yea people are already doing this in competitions to some degree, not as far as you said it though.

So here comes the newest trend thanks to a well known person posting it:thumbsup: 

Nice topic,
-Andrew


----------



## plantbrain

Well, very little I've suggested over many years have been my own ideas, just a collection of other folk's ideas that I've put together and suggested work well.


You can take an idea and turn it on it's head and use it to make your life easier.
Many hobbyists are too stubborn though and set in their ways. I'm always after a lazier way:thumbsup: 

The idea itself is not new, just using the method to "start" a tank.
Which makes logical sense and folks slap themselves on the head(mostly my own self for all the times I could have done this in the past and never said anything, but I'm not that way)

Waterless cycling of a planted tank I guess we could call it.
"Waterless pre rooting method"?
WPRM?

I suppose.
I'm not big on marketing names etc.





Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## g8wayg8r

I mentioned this to an experienced MASI member and he told me that this was the way all of the old timers would start a planted tank. Problem is that the method got lost somewhere along the line so bringing this up again in a detailed discussion is a great wakeup. If the weather wasn't on it's way to freezing in a month or so, I'd give it a try once I figure out where to put the tank after the plants get going. Perhaps that's why it lost favor with some.


----------



## plantbrain

g8wayg8r said:


> I mentioned this to an experienced MASI member and he told me that this was the way all of the old timers would start a planted tank. Problem is that the method got lost somewhere along the line so bringing this up again in a detailed discussion is a great wakeup. If the weather wasn't on it's way to freezing in a month or so, I'd give it a try once I figure out where to put the tank after the plants get going. Perhaps that's why it lost favor with some.


I hear many old codgers claim they invented the wheel. I often ask how they manged to come up with it and their justifications for it. The trail often gets very murky then and they claim senililty:icon_roll Unless you do something about the idea, share it, etc..........it's worthless. 

I have a reference for DIY CO2 used for planted tanks and the date?

1962.

That's documented. It did not become popular for nearly 35 years. The person published in an aquarium magazine back then. The web reaches a lot more folks today. The method for producing CO2 was invented perhaps 5000 years ago and was invented in several cultures(wine/alcohol).

I've been in the hobby over 33 years myself, so........I'm leary someone has not done this method before. And given the rather obvious ease, reduced labor, no algae and cost since the plants will grow out very well without having to buy a lot, seems the method would sell itself.

Why do good ideas fall through the cracks?
Perhaps senility? :redface: 

I have my own bouts with that, hehe.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Yoshi

Tom, this is an excellent thread. There are probably countless numbers of people who would be otherwise unexposed to this idea if they didn't stumble on it. You've inspired me to start a new tank the "Dry Method."


----------



## BentZero

Yeah, this definitely wants me to start two tanks. I'm starting one the wet method b/c I already have plants on the way. BTW, would you suggest this method if one was planning on going the low-tech route?


----------



## plantbrain

Well, as more folks get involved in CO2, easier methods to grow plants, rediscovering non CO2 methods, still yet new methods in marine macro algae yet to be discovered...........the more chances things have to grow, evolve and become better suited for the hobby.

Given the notion that many folks like HC, Gloss, Crypts, Hair grass, and dozen or so others...........this method can certainly help a lot.

So folks try it, they like it, see it's easy, then after thigns are well grown in, crank the CO2, ferts etc, and away they go.

Take a pic, submit to contest and we will have many many nice tank examples.
The other thing you might consider:

After filling the tank, getting a nice pic etc, tear it down and redo the scape/Rocks etc. Each tear down would only take about 4-6 weeks to fill in a again. Especially if you have a lot of plants after the first few runs.

I'd say one could do 6 nice rock low foreground scapes per year with this method and with flawless algae issues, very little water changes obviously, low cost, and the tanks do look nice as terrariums while you wait.

The tank would look old and well established even though it's only had water for 2 weeks and fish for several days.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## RoseHawke

Hmmm. You, know, that is a poser. Is it "cheating?" or is it merely different "husbandry practices?" If one really wants to split hairs, an aquascape could be defined as merely an underwater landscape, although I _seem _to remember something about the aquascape having to have a minimum amount of time that it's been up and running (at least per AGA rules.) I don't know for sure, this is only something I ran across at some point while browsing the AGA site and I am admittedly subject to CRS (and I don't mean shrimp!)

It would really only be an edge in a certain type of landscape (Iwagumi, most like) since so many aquatic plants, as you pointed out, have markedly different emersed/immersed forms.


----------



## plantbrain

Yes, Cindy,

Therein lies the issue and how long and at what stage can a a scape be judged fairly?

Is a week any more fair than a month?

Is a fleeting "moment" the same as permanence even if that permanence is merely a facade? Humm.........is a week any different than a month? 6 months different than a month?

We can also make a rock or mostly open layout by growing it in, adding some fish a few days later and taking some pics. 

I would actually not even need to be an aquarist at all, just a gardener "terrariumist". I could do daily water changes to add CO2 etc for several days, add some fish. "Click". Then show everyone or enter a contest.

Is the art of such scape beyond the hobby for such judging contest?
I wonder. Is a single species for a mere picture ideal better than a real community for a tank that the aquarists, not the judges, truly and really desire?

Are contest less a judge of aquarist and fish keeping, and more on gardening solely? I see few fish, then only a single species perhaps, not what many aquarist really would like unless they where breeding etc. Our assumptions can play tricks on us. What is it that we are judging? How would anyone know if my iwagumi was set up yesterday or 5 years ago? How much care I put into my fish and their behavior etc?

Am I someone who can maintain a tank for many years, or someone who can grow it in for a few weeks, trim and take good pictures?

These are less skills at keeping fish and aquariums, and more the domain of gardening.

What is the hobby of aquariums and plants?
How can things be judged without knowing what that goal is which is truly different for each person?

Should it go down that path to gardening solely, or more towards fish communities and the actual long term submersed hobby? 
Which are really the primary focus?

This method is meant to grow plants in well and get a good start, but it raises other questions as to the length of time needed to call it an aquarium and not a flooded terrarium.

Does a tank have to look like the photographed state for week?
A month?
A year?

That's yet another question.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## A Hill

plantbrain said:


> Well, very little I've suggested over many years have been my own ideas, just a collection of other folk's ideas that I've put together and suggested work well.
> 
> 
> You can take an idea and turn it on it's head and use it to make your life easier.
> Many hobbyists are too stubborn though and set in their ways. I'm always after a lazier way:thumbsup:
> 
> The idea itself is not new, just using the method to "start" a tank.
> Which makes logical sense and folks slap themselves on the head(mostly my own self for all the times I could have done this in the past and never said anything, but I'm not that way)
> 
> Waterless cycling of a planted tank I guess we could call it.
> "Waterless pre rooting method"?
> WPRM?
> 
> I suppose.
> I'm not big on marketing names etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Sounds like a good name to me Tom, and yes I agree. I remember telling someone the other day I have a 55g with good light and no CO2 and am growing plants and a swear they must have fallen off their chair in front of the computer:hihi: Granted I've been lazy with WC/cleaning etc and there is some algea here and there but I don't really care because soon I'm going to actually do my second scape first 55g scape. I plan on using this method actually. I was somewhat before but never thought of doing this for crypts so I'm going to try it. 

The only problem I see is I want a good ammount of thinner mantiza wood. I figure I'll have to put slate or something on the bottom of it? I plan on getting some java ferns from you when I do that and even growing them on the DW without water to see how well they grow Vs. in water. I'll probably have a ultrasonic mister plumbed in the tank to keep it very humid. 

Then just fill her up and add inverts, then a month later maybe add some smaller fish and viola!

As for the Contests, I think most of the entries that I like are the balance of a nice aquascape with a fish or group of inhabitants that adds to this. You can also just plant a tank for an aquascape. The plants should look fine if you have them healthy before hand. I remember Steve rushed his original BCK so he could get some pictures in, but he wasn't trying to cheat to win, he wanted to support the AGA competition:thumbsup: 

Why not start a moral debate while we're at it  

I wouldn't worry too much about it taking over Tom because most people are coming from tanks filled with water and adding plants opposed to people with planted vivs who want to add water as you said above somewhere. PLUS it's not like you've made up a new method, you've just tried to get more people to realize it's potential. This has been around for as long as I can remember, since I've gotten into the hobby at least. Just not common and popular because most people want to fill their tank up ASAP

I think the aquascaper, and the planted tank hobbiest are two different people in many cases, or at least have two different tanks For example Steven Chong he was all about scapes opposed to community of fishes and most of his scapes where only up for 6 months tops (witch was a old tank to him)

Also many people go thru stages of fishkeeping and one of them is aquascaping. yeah, we in general try to make our tanks good looking, but a good ammount of people want more than just a good looking scape IMO They want a good looking fish tank but I have no idea where I'm going so I'll stop lol..

-Andrew


----------



## plantbrain

There are plenty of examples of non CO2 tanks doing great, with willfull neglect

Are they nice HC lawns, and Erio sectacum?
Probably not.

But you can do the art very well, it just takes longer and things grow slower, I'd suggest that the scapers that do well without CO2 possess more skill as gardeners and aquarist.

If you can do both methods then you are even better.

I have suggested folks try both methods for many years.
Why?

To bridge the gaps, see the difference between each method and then be able to explain why each methods works.

Same deal here, folks might end up liking it and start raising Crypts emergent as a hobby

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## fishscale

I just started a tank with this method using SMS pre soaked in a fertilizer mixture. My only question now is: how well planted does the HC need to be? People say that tweezers are a must for planting HC, but it seems to me that if i just push the HC in a little, it holds fine, since it is a tank with no water, so I don't need to worry about it floating.


----------



## A Hill

fishscale said:


> I just started a tank with this method using SMS pre soaked in a fertilizer mixture. My only question now is: how well planted does the HC need to be? People say that tweezers are a must for planting HC, but it seems to me that if i just push the HC in a little, it holds fine, since it is a tank with no water, so I don't need to worry about it floating.


Just get the roots in the soil. Keep the soil wet. Then wait till it all roots. Since it's not underwater it wont get pulled up by fish/shrimp an that type of stuff so there isn't much to worry about, it should send new roots down either way.

-Andrew


----------



## Yoshi

I just took the plunge too... I basically sprinkled the HC onto the substrate; for longer pieces I nudged it slightly into the soil.

My Journal

So far the health of the HC seems normal, but it's only been a few days. At first I was fearing that they might darken and die, but things look good so far. I hope the HC starts taking off in a week or so.


----------



## fishscale

Another question: since there isn't a hug concern about algae, is there a huge downside to leaving lights on longer?


----------



## Yoshi

Around this time of year here in Southern California, the sun is up in the day for about 11-12 hours. Granted, it's not shining at full intensity all 12 hours because of sunrise/sunset and overcast conditions... so, I would venture a guess that you should just leave your lights on no longer than a standard photoperiod (between 8-10 hours). Anything longer would just be for your viewing pleasure. Just keep in mind plants need the dark as much as they need the light.


----------



## cookingnerd607

Just got my 90 gallon going using this method. I have 4 pots of hc split up all over the substrate. Im running 2x 150 8k mh about 12" above the tank surface. the top is covered with thick acrylic. I havent noticed much growth in the last 5 days. I did notice some of the leaves browning. My sms is wet up to the soil line. It stays very humind in the tank itself. Could it be getting too hot in the tank? Im going to take the temp today after my lights kick off.


----------



## BentZero

What kind of ferts did you add to the SMS?


----------



## speechless33759

Yeah, I wonder if sms would work with this growth or not. I don't think it would without ferts...am I correct in saying that?


----------



## JenThePlantGeek

Nah, sure it would. This tank gets fairly little in the way of ferts and I have all sorts of stuff growing up and out of it, even without the humidity. That's Soilmaster Select in the top there. I don't like the way the emersed growth trough turned out though, and I plan on redoing it soon.


----------



## fishscale

I just went for it and soaked the SMS in a bucket of water with about a week's worth of dosing in it. Go to water parameters, click dosing regimes. It looks like my HC is doing ok. The HC I planted earlier is sending out new buds and looks like it's rooting. I just got another package of HC today and planted it. It may die down a bit before it grows, though.


----------



## cookingnerd607

I soaked mine using the same idea. I also mix up a npk mix and spray that on the substrate every day. Ive been away for two days hopefully its growing better.


----------



## cookingnerd607

How is it coming along for everyone?

Some of my HC turned brown and died (almost looked like some type of funky algae) The temp gets up to 86F in my setup.. Im starting to notice growth now.. Its been two weeks.


----------



## fishscale

I'm seeing growth in places, but I'm having issues keeping parts of the tank moist enough. I have a decent sized hill in my scape. At the top of the hill, it is moist to the touch, and looking from the side, I can see water between the substrate particles, but the growth is much slower in this area. Also, I had a disaster when my substrate divider came undone, sending a part of scape sliding. Can anyone help me out with this? I amd trying to create a scape where I have:

SMS Sand SMS
------------------------ ____________________-------------------------

I used suction cups and strips of acrylic report covers. It seems the report covers are a bit too flimsy.


----------



## cookingnerd607

Ive cut up plastic 2liter bottles into strips.. and pushed those down into the substrates to divide them. 

Ive got some questions regarding the "ferts to spray on" I mixed up 
1 tsp CSM+B
1 tsp MgSO4
2 tsp K2SO4
1 tsp KNO3

in about 400ml of water.
Is this too rich? Could it be hurting the hc?

I mist this on the plants mon, wed, fri. I do about a dozen sprays each day.

some of the HC turned mushy green.. The rest seemed to take off fairly well.

Im also using some acrylic cut to size to cover the top of the tank.. While the lights are on it sits on the tank top very well.. When the lights are off it seems to bow mildly allowing moisture to escape. Im concerned this is a problem! Any thoughts? Is glass expensive to cover a 90g?


----------



## fishscale

I just used saran wrap, working real well. Every time I open the tank to do maintenance, my glasses fog up


----------



## cookingnerd607

Yeah, I think I just realized my problem. My boiler wasnt working properly.. so it was getting below 50 in my dining room.. Even with my apartment heated properly I keep the radiator in that room shut off. Is there some type of heater I can place IN the tank to keep it warm?


----------



## BentZero

cookingnerd607 said:


> Ive cut up plastic 2liter bottles into strips.. and pushed those down into the substrates to divide them.
> 
> Ive got some questions regarding the "ferts to spray on" I mixed up
> 1 tsp CSM+B
> 1 tsp MgSO4
> 2 tsp K2SO4
> 1 tsp KNO3


Since I'm using a non-CO2 method on my main tank I don't have most of these ferts. I've only got KNO3 and KH2PO4. Are there any commercial products I can use to soak the SMS? I'm going to use this method to start a shrimp tank. Can dwarf hairgrass be used in this method?


----------



## cookingnerd607

I fear that I am starting to loose the HC. It seems to be turning a dark green color.. and then it just breaks down. Its been two weeks, there isnt much of a root mass. When I lift up a clump.. there is appx 6-10 peices of SMS in the roots.

Recap:
equipment 90g, peat dusting, 2-4" SMS. Lighting 2x 150w MH 8hrs/day
Lights are appx 12" from tank top. The substrate is soaked up to 1/4" Below the substrate line. Gets to 85F in the tank..(probabbly lower with the cold day time weather now) HC showing little growth.

Im wondering if I put a reptile heating rock on the hill side, where there is no hc and it is fairly dry. If this would keep the temp up during the night?

I hate to loose $20 worth of HC.


----------



## fishscale

You can order ferts from Rex Grigg, http://www.bestaquariumregulator.com/ferts.html

You could use Flourish instead of CSM+B, I suppose, but it would be really expensive.


----------



## BentZero

I've already got flourish. I just hate to order a bunch of ferts that I don't plan to use beyond the initial SMS soaking.


----------



## fishscale

cookingnerd, do you think a reptile heatlamp would be overdoing it? I just have a ceramic heater in my living room until my cheap-o landlord turns the heat on. brrrrr.

BentZero, if you already have Flourish, KNO3 and KH2PO4, you're mostly set. I use Rex's combo pack, which is KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4, and CSM+B. CSM+B is a cheaper option than Flourish for traces, but if you've already got it and you want to use it, I think it would be fine. I'm pretty new to planted tanks too though, so you might want to check on the K2SO4.


----------



## plantbrain

Why sheeeit
Use Miracle Grow.

Since there tain't no fish.....and by the times yens fill er up with water, the bacteria ought to have muched the NH4 asnd urea to NO3.

You can flush with a couple of water changes to leach it out after 3-4 weeks etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## BentZero

Wow, it's so simple it's pure genius. I've got a ton of miracle grow just sitting around. I've decided to start out using 4 leaf clover since I've already got some. Wish me luck.


----------



## plantbrain

You can add Zeolite to the filter also before turning on the filter/adding water also to purge the NH4.

Bacteria
Water changes
Zeolite 
Plants

All remove NH4.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## RoseHawke

plantbrain said:


> "Why sheeeit
> Use Miracle Grow."


You know, I was wondering about this. Nice to know great minds think alike :hihi:. Not full strength I assume. I was thinking of about 1/4 to 1/2 strength. I believe the instructions on the packaging call for something like 2 TBS a gallon.


----------



## BentZero

RoseHawke said:


> You know, I was wondering about this. Nice to know great minds think alike :hihi:. Not full strength I assume. I was thinking of about 1/4 to 1/2 strength. I believe the instructions on the packaging call for something like 2 TBS a gallon.


D'oh. I was going to go full strength on the soak and the water in the tank, and 1/2 strength on the spray bottle. I'm starting the soak tonight, so any info would be great.


----------



## frasertheking

any pics of the process guys .roud:


----------



## RoseHawke

BentZero said:


> D'oh. I was going to go full strength on the soak and the water in the tank, and 1/2 strength on the spray bottle. I'm starting the soak tonight, so any info would be great.


May be BentZero, I really have no idea, I'm just assuming diluted a bit since "normally" the stuff gets diluted as it runs through potted plants and is rained on when used on outdoor plants. If used in the water in the substrate, the plants would be sitting in it all the time. MiracleGro is 20/20/20 NPK if I remember correctly and that just sounds rather strong, but again, I really don't know.


----------



## BentZero

frasertheking said:


> any pics of the process guys .roud:


I'll be sure to chronicle my attempt.


----------



## plantbrain

A lot of growing plants is D'oh!

You can raise farms of HC, Gloss, what ever foreground cover you want simply like house plants, just need a terrarium.

You can use mud/dirt and plain sand if you want to be really dirt cheap.

BTW, if you do the economics, a bag of ADA As runs about 35$ retail, if you use maybe 10% of it, to raise 1 sqft sell it for 50$. This takes 4 weeks to do, cost for the tank and sediment only really and the 30-45min to plant it.

So stop yer crying about how much ADA AS cost, or crying you ain't got the money......... if you want to be a farmer, heck, grow some plants and sell your weeds! Then you can use Plant Dollars to buy things(or not). 

You do not need to be a genius to realize the obvious.
Do not be one that places barriers in their way and figuring out why they can't do so many things...........plenty of critics, few thinking how to figure a way around it.

Down with cynicism.
Real criticism and constructive thinking is quite another matter. 
Growing plants does not need to be high tech or complex.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## fishscale

Tom, I'm having trouble keeping parts of the tank moist enough, mostly, the part of the tank where I put a hill in the scape. How would you suggest I fix this?


----------



## BentZero

I setup my tank last night. 20g with SMS. Added miracle gro water to 1/4" below the substrate. Adding four leaf clover and bacopa tonight. Hopefully the stem plants will be alright.


----------



## plantbrain

Bacopa does fine emergent

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Yoshi

fishscale said:


> Tom, I'm having trouble keeping parts of the tank moist enough, mostly, the part of the tank where I put a hill in the scape. How would you suggest I fix this?


Depending on the size of the tank in question... this is either a really easy or really annoying task. 

Here's what I would do: every week, I would add water in very very slow amounts to the substrate until it reaches the highest hill. Let the tank soak for a few hours, overnight would probably be best. In the morning, get an airline tube and start a siphon to drain the water down to the lowest hill. Doing this weekly or bi-weekly for a 1 day overnight should keep your soil moist even at the higher hills. If you know that the hill dries out in a few days, just mist more often. Or, better yet find yourself a better "lid" to keep the humidity in. 

As you can see, with small tanks the "filling and draining" would be a relatively simple task. If you've setup a large tank like this, it would probably be a pain in the neck to fill and re-drain every week just to keep the soil moist.

Hope that helps...


----------



## plantbrain

I just soak the entire sediment good, then remove the water for any hill applications, after some time has past, the hill should be pretty moist due to capillary action.

If not, take a turkey baster etc and take the water from the lower area etc, and pore over the dry areas until it becomes saturated. Yoshi's comments apply as well. Basic common sense stuff here.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## fishscale

Well, that's pretty much what I have been doing, but I feel like I don't have time to do it often enough. I usually take water from the lower area and put it in a perforated water bottle to water the hill in the morning, but by the time I come back at night, the hill seems to be too dry for the HC. Don't get me wrong, it's not actually dry (from the side of the glass, you can see water between the particles of substrate), but the HC in the lower parts are spreading and growing healthy, while the HC in the higher areas are growing small leaves and staying more or less the same. I use saran wrap to cover the tank.


----------



## fishscale

I may end up filling the tank up to hill level at night, and draining the tank down to "sea" level in the morning.


----------



## plantbrain

If you can tilt the tank to get the water level even across the slope, you can wedge a piece/shim etc under the tank also.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## majolo

I've been mostly lurking, but I thought I'd chime in that I'm trying this out too -- 2.5 gallon, Florabase substrate, some Lilaeopsis (not sure which species), sunlight from a southern exposure. Been going about 1.5 weeks, not much new growth yet. I keep having to resist the urge to fill it up!


----------



## Yoshi

I've updated my progress here... http://one51.blogspot.com/

It's been 3 weeks since I "sparsely" planted some leftover HC trimmings, and it's showing promising growth. Hopefully in a week or two I should see an explosion of new leaves.


----------



## mpodolan

That tank is going to be impressive when it fills in, Yoshi!


----------



## plantbrain

Yes, Yoshi, at the 4.5 liter size range, it does look much larger and excellent rock use.

You will need to really mow the HC down.
I hope you have some decent curved scissors.

The first week or two you do not see much growth, they are making roots, after that, they take off.

It's neat to see so many little examples being done, but it is easy.
Wait at least another week than you think.

Also, for HC, Excel works well and is well suited for smaller tanks like this where adding CO2 would detract from the tank a fair amount.

Give it at least 4 weeks for decent HC, maybe 6. do not worry, that's 6 weeks you do not need to do a single water change of dosing or clean the glass etc.




Regards, 
Tom Barr


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## ikuzo

keep up the updates Yoshi. this is really interesting. i'm growing emersed HC and glosso right now with garden soil and about 50% sunlight. the glosso is alot faster than HC.


----------



## Yoshi

Thanks guys, yea the glosso I would imagine would grow better than HC.

I don't mind the wait simply because it's a side project. If it were my main tank I'd be pretty impatient... but it all depends on how much you initially start with. More sprigs = faster growth. I only had a few leftover trimmings to work with so I call my planting "sparse" ... at least it's growing! 

I'll update the journal when there is change, thanks again.


----------



## fishscale

How's everyone's emergent setups? Mine just started growing a lot. I think the key is still in keeping it moist. My hill only grows where it is lowest.


----------



## BentZero

Mine is about to hit week 2. The bacopa is dead. I've only got 15w of light on it though. Four leaf clover is showing signs of growth. Hopefully the LFS will have more so I can fill in where the bacopa used to be. Here's a pic of my setup after week one.










Here's a pic of some of the new growth. The two new set of leaves are light green.


----------



## BentZero

I added a bit more water than I was supposed to add, but it's been evaporating so I didn't bother with draining the excess. Here's how it looked when I first set it up. SMS substrate with miracle-gro water at pretty much full strength. Spray with 1/4 strength miracle-gro water every other day. Saran wrap cover under hood and light strip and 6 hour light period.


----------



## fishscale

I have my lights on 14 hours a day with twice daily fill/drain cycle. I have a couple large hills in my scape that do not get enough moisture, so what I do is have a powerhead in a bucket of fert solution. I plug the powerhead into a timer and twice a day, the powerhead turns on and fills the tank for about 2 minutes, then the powerhead shuts off, and the siphon that is formed drains the water back down to the original level.


----------



## BentZero

That's pretty cool. Got any pics of that setup? Maybe I'll increase my light period. The hills in mine are pretty low, so it stays pretty moist due to capillary action. I plan on adding more substrate to create a steeper hill in the back when I add water. Obviously any FLC that grows in the back will be transfered towards the front when the hills go in.


----------



## Yoshi

Here's my 4.5L "Dry-Scape" update...

4 weeks after planting (Most Recent)


3 weeks after planting


2 weeks after planting


1 week after planting


I look forward to the next few weeks, watching the HC grow like this is pretty neat, and the progress is interesting to keep track of... 

Click here for the blog: http://one51.blogspot.com/


----------



## BentZero

Looks good. Any advice for me on my hardscape?


----------



## Colts Fan

I found this very intriguing, so I just had to try it. My set up is only a 10 gal tank with eco complete I have some HC and dwarf hairgrass planted. I have it covered with saran wrap. I am lighting it for now with a round clamp light reflector ( like you would use in construction) and I have a 120w flood light(a flouorescent bulb, it's one of the energy replacement types)in it, this is suspended about 18" over the top of the tank to get the whole tank lit. I keep this on for approximately 12-14 hrs a day. The round reflector is only temporary while I am doing the emergent growth. This tank is going to be for some CRS. Things seem to be going well so far, nothing has died. It does seem that the HC is growing a bit, so far nothing out of the dwarf hairgrass, but I realize it has only been 2 weeks. I do have a couple of questions should I be misting some ferts? I have read that some others are trying to get some co2 into their setups, is this necessary? I would appreciate any adice or tips.
Thanks,
Tom


----------



## Yoshi

BentZero said:


> Looks good. Any advice for me on my hardscape?


Your hardscape seems fine, only other suggestions I can give is to try out different rocks in the future to mix things up. I'm sure when the tank grows in the hardscape will look even better. A lot of aquascaping is "trial and error" ... oftentimes it just takes getting used to until you get a good feel for what looks good.



Colts Fan said:


> I do have a couple of questions should I be misting some ferts? I have read that some others are trying to get some co2 into their setups, is this necessary? I would appreciate any adice or tips.[/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]


I'm not 100% about the ferts, I think the nutrients that are found in the soil is enough; this is why it's important to use a nutrient dense substrate like ADA AS. Regarding misting ferts: I mist with a diluted Excel solution. I honestly don't know if this helps the growth or not, but for some reason I think this helps get rid of some fungus that may or may not show up in your tank; it's a good preventive measure. 

I highly doubt you need CO2 in your setup when it's still growing. Reason is because the plants can easily get CO2 from the surrounding air. If you'd like, exhale into your setup a few times before "closing it up"


----------



## trfjason

I started this type of setup last week with a small, clear plastic container with a lid. I made a small hole on the lid for gas exchange. I filled the container with Aqua Soil of 2cm depth. I planted HC and hairgrass. After one week, I notice that the HC did grow a bit, some hairgrass leaves are dead, while some of them are having new leaves. I mist the plants twice everyday. Right now, I notice that some of the older HC leaves are yellowing, maybe not enough potassium? I think I need to start dosing fertilizers.


----------



## mistergreen

here's mine in a rose bowl.

















it's about 3 weeks old. I think I'll keep it emmersed. Any extra HC can go into another tank. 

If you look carefully, it has a little BGA on the substrate but it doesn't look like a big deal.


----------



## trfjason

Looks great!


----------



## fishscale

I think BGA is one of the most easily removed algaes. As long as you fix the tank parameters, you can just pull up the whole chunk. 

I also have nothing coming from the hairgrass, but recently, a lot of growth from my HC.


----------



## ikuzo

oooh nice bowl. you make me want to start one


----------



## jazzlvr123

Hello, I started an emmersed HC carpet with power sand and ADA aquasoil as the substrate. With only TWO pots of HC IT has been set up for about two weeks and It has already tripled its mass. This is a 25 gallon tall aquarium. Every couple of days i take the glass lid off and blow into it to add CO2.


----------



## trfjason

jazzlvr, are you dosing any fertilizers? Your HC looks great!


----------



## jazzlvr123

nope the aquasoil is nutrient rich enough, once I add water in a couple weeks i am going to start dosing macro and micro fertilization (probably pps classic) and add compressed co2 right from the get go To avoid any nutrient imbalance/algae growth. I also have a cycled cannister filter which i am going to move to this tank once i add water so I can avoid any new tank symptoms.


----------



## cookingnerd607

Mine looks bad.

Im going to give up soon. I cant figure out what the problem is. 

Some spots grow.. other spots... turn to mush.


----------



## fishscale

WOW. that grew a lot faster than mine did. Mine went through an adjustment period before it started growing.


----------



## cookingnerd607

Yeah, Im completely jealous. Ive got very little growth with mine. Im really close to ripping it up.


----------



## trfjason

My HC in emersed setup is growing, I mist the plants twice a day, light is on for 12 hours, using a 15W 6500K screw-in. The problem is that some HC leaves turned yellow and some of the veins remain green. The light is less than 15cm from the plants. However there is a lid covering the container with a small hole. What causes the yellow leaves?


----------



## fishscale

To be fair though, I only have SMS, not aquasoil, so I have to DIY up some fert mixtures every once in a while. Finally got my camera working again, there are some pics in the journal I just posted:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/photo-album/54552-55g-journal.html#post484474


----------



## cookingnerd607

Mine looked like that. Now alot of the patches are brown mush.

I checked this morning and noticed 3-4 stems of growth where I planted single stems. Hopefully it comes thru!


----------



## fishscale

Mine already went through the mush stage, they're spreading now. Excel is key. Try it.


----------



## cookingnerd607

Yeah, Ive sprayed excel too. Ill keep at it.


----------



## plantbrain

Do not add too much Excel, it'll kill if you OD it(spray or submersed dosing).
Do not breath it either. Get it in your eyes => blindness.
It's not water:thumbsup: 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## mistergreen

Why are you guys using excel? Isn't air enough?


----------



## Brian A

It killed of all of the slime algae i had growing on the substrate. It also seemed to give my HC a little perk. I only sprayed it once and will again if algae comes back before it has filled in all of the way.


----------



## fishscale

I just add a capful to the spray bottle of water. It makes the leaves sparkle


----------



## plantbrain

fishscale said:


> I just add a capful to the spray bottle of water. It makes the leaves sparkle


THIS IS OKAY, ADDING PURE EXCEL WILL ROAST ABOUT ANY AND EVERYTHING WITHOUT WATER DILUTION!

Use diluted Excel if you wish, it also works well if you have algae issues in a submersed tank condition, you do a large water change to expose the infected areas, spray with diluted Excel, 1:20 or so, then refill the tank.

You can and will burn plants if you use higher dosing.

It is far far wiser to use less and do so several times, than one big concentrated amount, folks that OD excel and kill their shrimp or fish are not following directions.

You do not need to do this.

Killing algae is not really the root cure anyway, adding enough nutrients/CO2 are for submersed conditions. Adding some Excel here and there as a spray at pretty diluted amounts is okay if needed.

Same for H2O2.

Use little, spare the plant.

Watch the algae, and see how little it takes to cause some death/change etc. Use about 75% that amount 2-3x instead. Excel will kill plants also if you keep adding more and more.

Also, airing out the tank every so often reduces algae etc.
Make a slight crack in the seal to let air in/out but no so much as to dry up your plants.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## mistergreen

I hear the BGA plays a symbiotic relationship with plants eg Rice...
The rice plant depends on BGA to grow on top of the mud where BGA fix nitogen from the air and when they die, they release the N to the rice plant.

So I'm thinking it's good to have BGA in a emersed container.


----------



## ikuzo

what about mixing water with liquid ferts for the spray? i don't have access to enriched substrate that i have to stick with 1-2 mm gravel. i think it will work this way.


----------



## mistergreen

ikuzo said:


> what about mixing water with liquid ferts for the spray? i don't have access to enriched substrate that i have to stick with 1-2 mm gravel. i think it will work this way.


that's what I'm doing.. I have a little top soil in the bottom too.
I've noticed some potassium & calcium deficiency in the emergent growth...


----------



## fishscale

My substrate isn't enriched either, I have SMS. I soaked my SMS in a bucket of fert solution for a few days, then planted. Every week, I drain it and remoisten with fresh solution.


----------



## danbryans

Hey guys..thought I'd share my emersed setup. This is just past the 2nd week. Plants include HC, HG, E. tenellus...which will be what I will leave as is. It also includes M. umbrosum, pearlweed, aurea, rotundifolia, stargrass, L. arcuata & glosso. These will enventually be removed once I start flooding the tank. I just wanted to jumpstart an emersed culture so I can transfer em to pots outside.

Full tank shot









HC patch









other's









Comments on the hardscape is greatly appreciated.


----------



## plantbrain

The hardscape, given the rock choices and type here, is really pretty good.

I'd leave it.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## CmLaracy

what type of rock are those?


----------



## danbryans

plantbrain said:


> The hardscape, given the rock choices and type here, is really pretty good.
> 
> I'd leave it.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


...Thanks Tom! So far everything's doin great. It will be really interesting to see how things go once its flooded.



CmLaracy said:


> what type of rock are those?


 Err...Sorry but I really don't know what type. Just went to some garden shops and sifted through the rubble they have.


----------



## danepatrick

well, here's my shot at it!

been going for about 2 weeks now and things are finally starting to convert over and grow.


----------



## plantbrain

You do not need this much water BTW.
Just enough to keep the roots saturated with water, no need to go above the surface.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## quatermass

HC?
What plant name is that then?

<later>

Ahhhh the plant Hemianthus callitrichoides.
(Took some digging to find this out.)
:hihi:


----------



## quatermass

Yoshi said:


> Here's my 4.5L "Dry-Scape" update...
> 
> 
> I look forward to the next few weeks, watching the HC grow like this is pretty neat, and the progress is interesting to keep track of...
> 
> Click here for the blog: http://one51.blogspot.com/


Have you abandoned the blog? Didn't it work out? :icon_frow


----------



## fishscale

I've got an update as soon as I find my camera. Lots of growth these last 2 weeks.


----------



## quatermass

I was wondering if I can extend the photo period from 10 hours to even longer to speed up the initial growing of my dry-scape?

I know some plants give up after 10-12 hours and no benefit is gained. Is this universal you think?


----------



## RoseHawke

plantbrain said:


> You do not need this much water BTW.
> Just enough to keep the roots saturated with water, no need to go above the surface.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


I just wanted to comment on this. What I'm seeing in mine is that the HC that's totally emersed is doing _much_ better than what's half-n-half. I didn't mean to put that much water in it, but left it. Since it's now obvious that what's in the water is struggling a bit (under these conditions I'd imagine it would equate to a stagnant pool) I've been trying to get some of the extra water out and I can already see a difference. Not really paying a whole lot of attention to mine, taking the top off to look at it once or twice a day (since all the condensation on the acrylic makes it difficult to see,) spritzing it with a dilute solution of Miracle-gro if I think it looks like drying a bit more than I'd like.


----------



## danepatrick

RoseHawke said:


> I just wanted to comment on this. What I'm seeing in mine is that the HC that's totally emersed is doing _much_ better than what's half-n-half. I didn't mean to put that much water in it, but left it. Since it's now obvious that what's in the water is struggling a bit (under these conditions I'd imagine it would equate to a stagnant pool) I've been trying to get some of the extra water out and I can already see a difference. Not really paying a whole lot of attention to mine, taking the top off to look at it once or twice a day (since all the condensation on the acrylic makes it difficult to see,) spritzing it with a dilute solution of Miracle-gro if I think it looks like drying a bit more than I'd like.


after the comment by Tom, i took out what that excess water. i brought it down to right below the soil line and i think within a few days i can see some new growth. i agree with you guys that there shouldn't be that much water. :smile:


----------



## Yoshi

quatermass said:


> Have you abandoned the blog? Didn't it work out? :icon_frow


I didn't abandon it... I had a few computer problems last holiday weekend so I didn't have a chance to snap updated photos.

The HC in my "dry-tank" is exploding with growth now, it's very healthy and lush. It still hasn't reached 100% coverage, but it's gotten a lot greener :flick: I'll get an update later this week.


----------



## BentZero

My four leaf clover is growing, but I wouldn't say at an alarming rate. Not sure if it's just a slow grower or what. I'm going to have to get more from the LFS and give it another week before I flood the tank. I've only got 15w on the tank.


----------



## jazzlvr123

my HC has pretty much completely carpeted the tank now. I'm going to flood it after school on Friday when i have time. Ill post pics then. Regards, kyle


----------



## Yoshi

Updated my "Dry-Tank" ... it's on Day 49 (7 weeks)
http://one51.blogspot.com/

I'll probably do the next update in mid Dec. and another one in late Dec. before the year ends to show more progress. I'm going to guess in another month, by the time the New Year comes around, the tank will be getting covered really quickly. I hope the carpet forms densely in the next few weeks. Thanks for looking!


----------



## plantbrain

BTW, amano commented that there where a huge no# of rock iwaguami style layouts this year and said that if you do well with rocks, you do well in the contest

So this is a simple easy method to get closer to this goal which seems to be popular for many.

Adding more HC etc at the start allows from good grow in and warmer temps do as well.

6-8 weeks should be plenty, but always wait another 1-2 weeks than you think.
The plants will fill in even better.

Make sure good CO2/Excel etc right away, get a good handle on CO2/Excel and less on nutrients to the water column.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Yoshi

plantbrain said:


> BTW, amano commented that there where a huge no# of rock iwaguami style layouts this year and said that if you do well with rocks, you do well in the contest
> 
> So this is a simple easy method to get closer to this goal which seems to be popular for many.
> 
> Adding more HC etc at the start allows from good grow in and warmer temps do as well.
> 
> 6-8 weeks should be plenty, but always wait another 1-2 weeks than you think.
> The plants will fill in even better.
> 
> Make sure good CO2/Excel etc right away, get a good handle on CO2/Excel and less on nutrients to the water column.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


I can't agree more with this... it's obvious that adding more HC in the beginning = faster growth later on. So for those of you interested in growing a tank starting out w/this method, definitely start with a larger patch of HC and plant the sprigs generously throughout the gravel.

You guys can see that my growth is slow because I started out with a small amount (trimmings from my 8L tank doesn't yield much HC :biggrin. This is the main reason why my experiment is taking such a long time to carpet. So I've learned that if you start with more HC, once you hit the 6-8 week mark the HC should be forming a very nice carpet. All you really need is 2 months for the HC to grow a substatial amount in these "dry-tank" setups.

Next time, I will be planting with a lot more HC to begin with.

I'm not done yet, but overall this has been a fun/interesting experience!


----------



## ikuzo

great growth Yoshi. so this mean it's time to add water into the tank?


----------



## Tdon1md

I wish I would have been starting my 75G from scratch. I would have carpeted my Dwarf Harigrass this way as well as given my Cryps a head start. I had limited choices as I transfered most my plants, as well as some fish, from my 30G. Great idea though. When I start up my next tank, you can be sure I will start it this way.

I have a question about cycling though. It seems to me that if you don't use Aquasoil as a substrate, the amount of bacteria you will grow in the substrate will be slim to none. Reason I say that is Aquasoil, I've read, has ammonia added, among other things. If you were to EI dose say SMS (which is what I used in my 75G) there would be no Ammonia for the bacteria to get started on would there? Just can't seem to get my arms around this concept and would love to have this aspect further explained.

Both of the canisters I'm using on my 75G are cycled and the plants were all transfered from an established tank so I'm hoping I'll have minimal cycling problems. I added a UV sterilizer so a Green water bloom isn't as likely as it was when I started my 30G. I wonder, however, if I should expect other algae blooms as the tank matures having used mostly seasoned materials with the exception of my substrate. Any ideas on what I should expect?
________
Buy Bubblers


----------



## Madfish

Anyone else got pictures of there set up that they grew this way? I just need so insperation as Im looking at mine with not alot of groth to it.


----------



## fishscale

Depends what you dose in it. Many ferts contain ammonia. If you were to use miracle gro, you would definitely have ammonia. I think you would probably have some kind of cycle anyway. Madfish, when I get done with finals, I'll upload some more pics. There are some in the photo forum.


----------



## plantbrain

ADA AS did the best and not flooding the tank too much, plenty oif light, warm temps etc.

It will grow pretty fast after 2 weeks or so.
I see good growth after 1-2 weeks.

Regards, 

Tom Barr


----------



## wicked1

This is great...  
We've gone from planted tanks to hydroponics.


And then back again.


----------



## mistergreen

mine is growing but sloooowly.. How warm are you keeping the temperature? Mine is room temp so that's 70F-72F.

And i've notice plenty of nutrient deficiencies.. I thought using a little potting soil was enough... I'm spritzing minute ferts everyday.


----------



## fishscale

Don't overdo it on the ferts, I ran into problems when I sprayed too much on. I couldn't figure out why it was yellowing and not growing, and then I switched to mostly water in my spritz bottle, and now it's spreading all over.


----------



## Madfish

Here is my tank. Not alot of groth on it but one day it will fill in.


----------



## RoseHawke

I'll have to take a pic of mine some time today. The substrate is pretty well sloped and there is a _huge_ difference in growth between the bits that are just barely damp and the bits that are "wet." In fact the wet bits were setback quite a bit after planting, probably 80-90% of each clumplet dying. I'm in no particular hurry however, so the fact that it's slower growth overall because of temp (the house is kept at anywhere from 62F [nighttime] to 68-72 [daytime] temps) doesn't bother me. Also I wasn't so persnickety overall in my planting since I had much more than I could use and no patience to poke little individual strands in :hihi: . My method was to just take a chunk and plunge 'er in! Wheee!


----------



## Yoshi

Updated: http://one51.blogspot.com/

Currently at Day 63 (9 weeks) ... it's getting there.


----------



## ikuzo

niicee growth Yoshi.
i'm looking forward to follow it when you add water. keep the updates coming.


----------



## mistergreen

I think it helps to mist the HC daily.. Having a wet substrate and a sealed container isn't enough.


----------



## loachlady5

What a great idea! I'm not sure I could have been so patient with my first planted tank, but I might try this if I start another at some point. Patience in the beginning would save a lot of headache later.


----------



## BentZero

I had to flood my tank @ week 4. A bit earlier than I had planned due to some shrimp that arrived before I thought they would have. Anyways, at that point I thought that the tank would have been cycled. I was wrong. Two weeks later and the tank is still cycling. When I had the water tested at my LFS (I don't have a nitrite kit) the pH read 5. Well, that's as low as their kit would go. They told me that the pH was probably prolonging the cycle, so the fact that the tank had not cycled in 4 weeks may be unique to my situation. Ammonia read 2.0 and nitirite was a 4.0. I used SMS for substrate and I was growing four leaf clover. SMS was soaked in a full strength miracle grow solution and sprayed every other day with a 1/4 solution. I unfortunately didn't get much growth because my lighting sucked. This is a cool project to do if you're starting a second tank or have enough patience to start your main tank this way.


----------



## mistergreen

BentZero said:


> I had to flood my tank @ week 4. A bit earlier than I had planned due to some shrimp that arrived before I thought they would have. Anyways, at that point I thought that the tank would have been cycled. I was wrong. Two weeks later and the tank is still cycling. When I had the water tested at my LFS (I don't have a nitrite kit) the pH read 5. Well, that's as low as their kit would go. They told me that the pH was probably prolonging the cycle, so the fact that the tank had not cycled in 4 weeks may be unique to my situation. Ammonia read 2.0 and nitirite was a 4.0. I used SMS for substrate and I was growing four leaf clover. SMS was soaked in a full strength miracle grow solution and sprayed every other day with a 1/4 solution. I unfortunately didn't get much growth because my lighting sucked. This is a cool project to do if you're starting a second tank or have enough patience to start your main tank this way.


it's because of the miracle grow.


----------



## BentZero

mistergreen said:


> it's because of the miracle grow.


I thought about that. I know it has ammonia, but I figured it would help the cycle. When I flooded the tank I fully filled it, drained 80% of the water, filled it again, drained 50% of the water, and then filled it again. Anyways, I would have done it differently if I wasn't under such a budget constraint. I would have used eco-complete and proper lighting and a faster growing plant. I also could have been cycling a filter in a bucket while the tank was still dry. Are you also saying that the miracle gro is the cause of my low pH? Perhaps I should do another 50% water change.


----------



## mistergreen

yes to both, it's a source of lots of ammonia not a little (urea, chicken poop) and heavy in organic matter which has lots of acids in it like humic etc...


----------



## BentZero

mistergreen said:


> yes to both, it's a source of lots of ammonia not a little (urea, chicken poop) and heavy in organic matter which has lots of acids in it like humic etc...


D'oh. Well, as usually going the cheap route has kicked me in the buttocks yet again.


----------



## oblongshrimp

well i think its ok to use but how strong is a 100% solution...my guess is you used WAY to much? was it the liquid type you were using or the stuff you mix up.


----------



## mistergreen

I'm using soil in mine but I'm keeping it strictly emersed.


----------



## oblongshrimp

I am growing Utricularia graminifolia and HC emersed currently using old aquasoil i pulled out of my 120gal tank. It was to beat up to put into a submerged setup as it makes the water to cloudy. I have some miracle grow i put into some water that I use to spray them every now and then but its like 50 drops of the liquid into a liter spraybottle.


----------



## BentZero

oblongshrimp said:


> well i think its ok to use but how strong is a 100% solution...my guess is you used WAY to much? was it the liquid type you were using or the stuff you mix up.


It was the stuff you mix up. I shouldn't say that it was a 100% solution. Probably more like a 75%. When I mixed it I put enough in a 5gal bucket to mix in 5gal of water, but when I filled the bucket I let it run over a bit so it wouldn't be fully 100%. Anyways, I did another 50% water change today. Moral of the story is: don't cheap out.


----------



## oblongshrimp

lol or don't go overboard on the ferts


----------



## fishscale

Update in my 55g thread, there is lots of growth on the side I started first, but I didn't get closeups.


----------



## Shady Milkman

Im gonna try this too. Any idea how to convert fissidens fontanus and anubias petite to emersed form from the submersed form? Is it enough just to keep them hydrated every so often?


----------



## plantbrain

Moss that you are interested in is native to the USA.
It grows along creeks and on rocks and wood in cool damp areas.

That's should tell you all you need to know
Generally, moss does really well in high CO2, nutrient rich water, lower light works, but so does high light.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## CamTurner

Well I've been lurking on this thread since it began and I recently started a 130G planted tank using this method. I'm trying to grow out a carpet of glosso and so far it's working well (only week 2). My problem is that my hardscape includes a lot of driftwood. I've been gone for the weekend and I just came back and the driftwood is MOULDY. I should have expected it I guess, but my question is.. wait it out or flood the tank? Removing the driftwood isn't really an option any more.

Thanks.

Cam


----------



## BrettNYC

*Algae problem while growing emmersed HC*

I have been growing my HC emersed for almost 3 weeks now. The water level is just below the surface of the gravel and growth has been slow but steady. 

Recently i noticed green algae forming on the surface of some of the gravel and plants. What can I do to eliminate it?

Thanks,
Brett


----------



## Yoshi

BrettNYC said:


> I have been growing my HC emersed for almost 3 weeks now. The water level is just below the surface of the gravel and growth has been slow but steady.
> 
> Recently i noticed green algae forming on the surface of some of the gravel and plants. What can I do to eliminate it?
> 
> Thanks,
> Brett


what's the photoperiod?

I'd run a 8 hr photoperiod, and perhaps make a diluted solution of excel to mist over the plants. I'm not sure if the excel will help kill the algae, but it wouldn't hurt to give it a try.


----------



## BrettNYC

Thanks for all the responses. 

Currently my phot period is about 11 hours. 

What concentration of excel should I spray?

Brett


----------



## Madfish

I have used about one cap full to a standard spray bottle that you can get at the store. That seemed to help me out.


----------



## Yoshi

Yes, that's about what I use. The rough dilution depending on the bottle is probably around 5% excel, 95% water.

If you feel the need, I would guess a 10% excel, 90% water mix would be OK too... no concrete numbers here, just a bunch of "estimates"


----------



## marrow

I have used or abused this method in two tanks through sheer neglect. I had a tank break during a move and through all the plants and aquasoil in two 35 gallon acrylic tanks and then forgot about them completely. The tanks were untouched for about two months with only 2 odno 4 ft t8 bulbs on 2 feet above them that were on for 24 hours a day. Marsilea took off and covered both tanks with clover, Lysimachia nummularia grew nicely as did assorted dwarf swords and even a few nice clumps of rotala macandra. Some hygrosperma- sunset also did quite well. I added water a month ago and everything still looks good. You might as well mow the marsilea down to about an inch high before filling with water as the emergent leaves will rot off, make a mess anyway and be replaced by the submerged growth. The AS was two years old and I obtained it used from someone who was getting out of planted tanks. The only ferts were the plants that didnt make it & some oto's and shrimp I was unable to locate after the tank crashed. About a dozen oto's I think. It never smelled bad though. The soil in the tanks reached the point of appearing bone dry with wilted plants in it before I added any water and then only about a quart in each tank. The plants developed some pretty extensive root systems.


----------



## cookingnerd607

I just moved some of my hc in another area of my 90g.. Seems like its dying back. Anyone notice the hc dying back when being planted? How about a very light fuzz of mold?


----------



## fishscale

This method for sure works. I didn't use aquasoil, just SMS and some amateur fert mixing. Check my journal for progress pics. I didn't even notice the change until I put the 2 pics up for comparison.


----------



## jazzlvr123

just flooded my emmersed Hc tank today becuase my CRS tank broke and the survivors needed a home.









Heres the surviving shrimps in their new home:


----------



## SCMurphy

Dude, what happened to that tank? Good thing you had that HC tank sitting there ready to go! I don't know how CRS respond to Excell, but HC loves the stuff, something to think about when you have the CRS colony out of the way again.


----------



## plantbrain

Ryan's "Pete Townsound" style of guitar playing got away from him and he broke it

The HC is a few days old now in that tank and looks fine after flooding.
I think he said is was set up for 6-8 weeks, plenty of time for the bacteria to get established in the sediment and oxidize the majority of NH4 that will leach quickly.

And we know Shrimps are pretty sensitive to most toxins, so they are doing fine as well.

I think Ryan said he used 1 clump that you see to farm this out and waited a few weeks for it to grow in first. Then you just flood the tank and crank the CO2.

If your HC has issues upon flooding, sorry, it's not the method or transition, it's not giving it enough CO2/Excel. HC transitions very well.

A few critics of this method(interestingly who have never tested their own hypothesis/claim/criticisim) suggested that this method is not good because the plants will all melt and go through a transition peroid.
That does not really occur with the emergent plants we get any(which is how most of the aquatic plants sold are grown). Nor does it occur in the tank grown species, which already have nice well established roots. 

The plants obviously have enough nutrients via the sediment, enough light etc, the difference when you flood: CO2 mostly.

*This method will not save those who cannot grow HC submersed well to begin with.*

Or hairgrass, or any other foreground plant.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## fishscale

Just out of curiosity, Tom, should you give the HC a trim before you flood it? The HC in my emersed tank has gotten quite thick.

Also, are any of the following plants Excel sensitive: Blyxa Japonica, Blyxa Aubertii, L. Repens x Arcuata, L. Repens, Java fern, Rotala sp. Green,


----------



## Gatekeeper

fishscale said:


> Also, are any of the following plants Excel sensitive: Blyxa Japonica, Blyxa Aubertii, L. Repens x Arcuata, L. Repens, Java fern, Rotala sp. Green,


the Blyxa and rotala, no. I have all three of these species and OD excel daily.
i would assume the ludwigia sp. shouls be fine as well.


----------



## imeridian

I can also confirm that Blyxa and Rotala are fine with Excel, along with Ludwigia and Java fern.


----------



## fishscale

I just used the last of mine. I have the sinking feeling that Big Al's is about to eat my wallet.


----------



## plantbrain

fishscale said:


> Just out of curiosity, Tom, should you give the HC a trim before you flood it? The HC in my emersed tank has gotten quite thick.


You can if you want, I trim as needed, but typically wait a week before flooding.
I'm doing this for a 180 Gallon tank soon so it'll be interesting.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## fishscale

Post pics, Tom


----------



## jazzlvr123

plantbrain said:


> Ryan's "Pete Townsound" style of guitar playing got away from him and he broke it
> 
> The HC is a few days old now in that tank and looks fine after flooding.
> I think he said is was set up for 6-8 weeks, plenty of time for the bacteria to get established in the sediment and oxidize the majority of NH4 that will leach quickly.
> 
> And we know Shrimps are pretty sensitive to most toxins, so they are doing fine as well.
> 
> I think Ryan said he used 1 clump that you see to farm this out and waited a few weeks for it to grow in first. Then you just flood the tank and crank the CO2.
> 
> If your HC has issues upon flooding, sorry, it's not the method or transition, it's not giving it enough CO2/Excel. HC transitions very well.
> 
> A few critics of this method(interestingly who have never tested their own hypothesis/claim/criticisim) suggested that this method is not good because the plants will all melt and go through a transition peroid.
> That does not really occur with the emergent plants we get any(which is how most of the aquatic plants sold are grown). Nor does it occur in the tank grown species, which already have nice well established roots.
> 
> The plants obviously have enough nutrients via the sediment, enough light etc, the difference when you flood: CO2 mostly.
> 
> *This method will not save those who cannot grow HC submersed well to begin with.*
> 
> Or hairgrass, or any other foreground plant.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr



Thanks for all the comments Tom however my name is Kyle not Ryan. Regards, Kyle Hernandez


----------



## plantbrain

fishscale said:


> Post pics, Tom


Never

Well, I got the Wood glued down good in the 180. I really like the wood I have.
Lots of folks focus on rocks, and that's good, but I am a wood guy, rocks are for Rift tanks

You can use wood like rocks as well.

I will have a rock tank, the Tangy planted tank.
And the CA tide pool tank will also be all rock.
The 38 Gallon will be Bald Cypress. 

I'm not sure about the West African tank. Still trying to figure out what I wanna do, I have the fish list.

I can start some of these tanks via this method.(3 of them, the 180 South American, the 60 West African Cube, and the Whimple piranha 38.

All are nothing but wood, but I need to figure out what precisely I want to do with the 60.

I have some really neat wood pieces that are more like rocks than wood and no one has ever used these in tanks like this.

And this method + that wood are perfect for eachother.
I think I'll do a quick scape and then tear it down and do something more for the community of fish I have planned.

I design most of the scapes for the fish community I plan on having.
You see, I still like fish
Most clients do as well.

I also have a large number of fish I really love, so I trade off the designs for the fish.

I do not over stock, but I do not understock or go with one single species.
Unless I was breeding etc, I would not do that with a non planted tank either.

One nice thing about this method, you can set up a few 20 Gal tanks, get a nice rug of several different foreground plants, then fill with water, add rocks , wood , whatever, then add a mature filter and clean it it up, and about 1-6 weeks later, you have a real nice scape.

Then you can tear it down and try another one.

Etc.

It makes scaping a number of different foreground plants and options really easy and far less labor.

Most folks can work hard for 2-3 weeks on a tank, get a nice shot and then go from there.

Many will keep their tanks also.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

jazzlvr123 said:


> Thanks for all the comments Tom however my name is Kyle not Ryan. Regards, Kyle Hernandez


Dangit icon_redf
I know that, I've never called you that in person
Why the heck did I write that? I knowmyour name but for some reason I wrote Ryan. What the heck was I thinking? 
The feeble mind is going........ 

Now I'm worried I'm forgetting something else!

Good luck in Boston!!
You better get in!
We are rooting for you, not that Ryan guy

Regards, 

Tom Barr


----------



## ikuzo

love the wood work on in the behemot Tom. let us see this 180 you're talking about please


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## plantbrain

I'll post pics later today perhaps or tomorrow.

Regards,
Tom Barr


----------



## fishscale

Hi Tom, I've got another question. In preparation for filling the tank, I decided to trim the HC lawn a little bit. The top was extremely healthy looking, a nice lime green. However, when I trimmed off the top layer, the stuff under was yellow and not so healthy looking. Is this normal?


----------



## plantbrain

To some degree yes, but in flooding state, the stuff can build up over 1" at least before getting ratty, and sometimes even more/higher etc. This is especially true with the ADA AS.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Homer_Simpson

plantbrain said:


> ....
> I've grown Crypts for many many years this way...
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


I am looking to tear down a 3 gallon tank at work that is literally got an out of control snail problem. All efforts to eradicate these pond snails have failed. 

The White Cloud Minnow and Amano Shrimp will be relocated to one of my tanks at home.n I wanted to bleach the tank, get rid of the plants with the exception of the anubias which I may be able to bleach dip to hopefully get rid of any snail eggs and start over. 

The plan is to do the emersed/"dry" method using a Crypt and two anubias plants. The substrate will be ADA Aquasoil II. The idea was to use a hybrid method. This method followed by Excel Dosing with water changes for a a few weeks or until the plants are firmly established, then to taper off or go cold turkey on the Excel Dosing. The tank will be a low tech tank and will be home to a Betta. 

My concern was how well the method would work with crypts, given that crypts are prone to melting(the equivalent of transplant shock). I imagine that this would likely happen as the crypt is going from submersed(from the store tank) to emersed. Tom, what is your experience with how quickly crypts recover from melt with this method and do you have any suggestions/recommendations to deal with this. Also should the the ADA AS II be soaked heavily with water at the bottom or should it just be kept with continual spraying twice a day to prevent it from drying out. 

Thanks.


----------



## lauraleellbp

FYI Homer- If you want to start with emersed Crypts instead to reduce acclimation issues, I know that gmccreedy grows them emersed...


----------



## mistergreen

make sure to keep the environment really humid. The transition from submerged to emersed is tougher. Crypts are hardier than you think. I had more problems with anubias melting.


----------



## plantbrain

I'd just do the DSM, then once you fill, you can use the Excel if you wish, probably will not need it though.

Do this instead: Slowly fill the tank, as long as you have decent circulation, enough floating leaves etc, then you are fine doing it that way

These plants are pretty easy to care for and transitions are pretty easy for them. Think about it, most wetland plants all come from oplaces that are flooded part of the year and thus live below the water,then the water recedes...........then tey start to flower and are left high and dry.

Swords and Crypts both are like this and are stream/river plants with generally higher current. Might need large root structures for daughter plant runners, phyical stress due to current, storage of reserves, and of course when there is no more water and all the nutrients and water MUST come from the sediments.

It does not imply they prefer root uptake, it means they have no other choice.

We can grow both species in flourite and in nutrient rich clay and have similar rates of growth submersed.

You have both nutrients in the water column and the sediment, so you have plenty of wiggle room there. The rest is CO2/light balancing, as well as fish load. SAE's, Amano shrimp etc, might not go well with the betta.
So think about at.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Homer_Simpson

plantbrain said:


> I'd just do the DSM, then once you fill, you can use the Excel if you wish, probably will not need it though.
> 
> Do this instead: Slowly fill the tank, as long as you have decent circulation, enough floating leaves etc, then you are fine doing it that way
> 
> These plants are pretty easy to care for and transitions are pretty easy for them. Think about it, most wetland plants all come from oplaces that are flooded part of the year and thus live below the water,then the water recedes...........then tey start to flower and are left high and dry.
> 
> Swords and Crypts both are like this and are stream/river plants with generally higher current. Might need large root structures for daughter plant runners, phyical stress due to current, storage of reserves, and of course when there is no more water and all the nutrients and water MUST come from the sediments.
> 
> It does not imply they prefer root uptake, it means they have no other choice.
> 
> We can grow both species in flourite and in nutrient rich clay and have similar rates of growth submersed.
> 
> You have both nutrients in the water column and the sediment, so you have plenty of wiggle room there. The rest is CO2/light balancing, as well as fish load. SAE's, Amano shrimp etc, might not go well with the betta.
> So think about at.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Many thanks as always Tom. The point about Amano Shrimp is well taken. Given all the controversy about endless spikes with ADA AS II, I figured a Betta would do better in a much smaller tank with ADA AS II where ammonia spikes may become more of an issue. With such a low plant load(A crypt and one or two anubias), I am not confident that the plants will sufficiently uptake the ammonia, especially if there is a constant leach of ammonia from the substrate. Bettas are generally more tolerant of ammonia spikes than Amano Shrimp. However, I thoroughly test the water once the tank is set up and add Amano Shrimp, once the Ammonia levels hit zero.


----------



## ofird

Sorry for bumping this, but i just finished reading and it was so interesting :thumbsup: that I want to use it in my new Low Tech setup (220 liters)

I am just not sure HC is suited for Low-Tech-*Excel *tanks...:icon_ques

So just to be sure of this method:

1) Can I use HC or better stick to low-tech grass, like Marsilea Minuta?
2) Can this method be used with 1 inch of natural substrate (humus, peat, etc) and 2 inches of Eco-Complete on top?
3) Can I plant additional plants in the dry era, such as crypts, anubias, java fern (mainly low-tech suited plants)?

Ragards,
O


----------



## MedRed

I'm trying this for the first time and I have a couple of questions. 

1) what is the best lighting duration? I want optimal growth without cooking the plants (especially since I'm using metal halide).

2) should i completely seal the top of the tank in saran wrap or should I allow some air exchange?


----------



## Yiannis

Hello guys,

I believe in this method but surely I am doing something wrong. I have a 40L tank with normal pot soil spraid with dilute macro and micro nutrients. A 36W compact fluerescent lamp for 12 hours per day and a glass lid to keep things humid. I tried to grow Eleocharis Parvula (Dwarf hairgrass) but it deteriorated, went brown and grew white fungi. I stopped the method and flooded the tank to prevent the plant for further deterioration but this is not the point. I thought I did everything right with the exception of the pot soil and the high temperatures in the country. So I ask:

1. Could it be that my substrate didn't have the nutrients my plants needed even though a dosed NPK, Iron and micronutrients as a dilute solution in the substrate?

2. The temperatures in Cyprus (mediteranian) are now rising and with the greenhouse effect created in the tank the temperature of the tank might have gone a bit too high for the plants to survive?

Thanks in advance :icon_bigg


----------



## Down_Shift

My 60P (20g) is Algae free. 25 cardinals, a few guppies and oto. 
RO/DI water, 4x24w t5HO, 2x XP3's, Pressurized CO2. 

I don't do anything other than feed my fish and top off the tank. I only do a 30% WC every 3 months.

Same with my other 2 nano tanks. I haven't lost any stock for over 6 months now. No Cardinal loss for a year.

I dunno what's the deal with this.. People say I'm crazy to not be doing WC's more often.. but I figured if nothing is wrong.. why mess with the ecosystem of the tank


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## plantbrain

ofird said:


> Sorry for bumping this, but i just finished reading and it was so interesting :thumbsup: that I want to use it in my new Low Tech setup (220 liters)
> 
> I am just not sure HC is suited for Low-Tech-*Excel *tanks...:icon_ques
> 
> So just to be sure of this method:
> 
> 1) Can I use HC or better stick to low-tech grass, like Marsilea Minuta?
> 2) Can this method be used with 1 inch of natural substrate (humus, peat, etc) and 2 inches of Eco-Complete on top?
> 3) Can I plant additional plants in the dry era, such as crypts, anubias, java fern (mainly low-tech suited plants)?
> 
> Ragards,
> O


Excel and Hc work well together.
Mineralized Soil or ADA AS might work better
Yes,

Regards, 
Tom barr


----------



## plantbrain

Fungi means you likely have too much humidity.
Same issue with emergent Crypt growers etc........look at how they grow etc.

If you exchange the water nutrient solution once every 1-2 weeks, the tank should do well. But if you use ADA As or MS, then no such need........

Also, HC is not a high light demanding plant.
I wish folks would realize this and get over the HLD.
Use say 2 x 24 W or 2x 20 W on a 20 Gal tank(60cm long).

That's all you need.
It will grow fine and form a nice a dense carpet.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## dundadundun

this was a refreshing read. it's about time i've come across an acclimation method that seems almost natural... like marginal flooding plants would be dealing with in some places already. so common sense it's almost genius.

one thing i am thinking with those that have mentioned trying to keep hilly regions wet enough would be to bury an air hose under the hill. if the soil is to be wet that would certainly help the moisture wick as the air picks it up and rises.

thoughts?

i know it's an old thread but the idea seems almost forgotten in most places. maybe it was time to dig up the past?

EDIT: also i was thinking this would be a pain free method to attaining a nice riccia foreground. any thoughts on that?


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## yellotang

I have been browsing over this thread for a couple of days now and one thing I have been wondering is, "When you flood the tank, are you doing it all at one?" 

"What would be the benefit of flooding slowly over the course of about two months.


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## yellotang

bump


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## Ugly Genius

Most do it all at once.

There's not much benefit to raising the water level slowly as it's difficult to provide filtration and CO2 injection in shallow water. Your best bet is to fill right away and pump in the CO2 as soon as the tank is filled. Plants, I've found, do not fear change as much as people. They can adapt quite readily from one form to the other.


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## AoxomoxoA

Wow this is great timing! Thanks so much for an informative read even if it's old to some here 
I'm starting an Iwagumi RCS tank next weekend, & have HC in the windowsill in tupperware already, so I'm gonna give this a shot.
(since I'm already so good at growing algae)


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## Mr BrownThumb

*Coming from the depths of the substrate.... It's the thread that WOULD NOT DIE*

Hey Tom, 

So i got my susbstrate fertilized with Iron Intense/Green Start. I clipped the tops/roots of my E. Tennelus and HC, and stuck fairly small clumps of HC in the substrate. I plopped a few clumps of Staurogyne Repens in there too, because it kept floating up in my old tank. I have the glass top on there to keep it humid and I'm misting it daily and have just a little bit of pooling, probably because the substrate is uneven. I have a few questions:

>What kind of lighting regimen should i give the plants? I have a 3 X 39w T5 HO fixture (2 x 6500k, 1 x 10000k) on 2 separate switches. 

>Are there any warning signs i might be getting any fungus in there, smells, etc?

>Will there be any die off before i see new growth or runners?

>Any other words of wisdom, or is just a waiting game now? tia

-Rey-


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## plantbrain

Wait mostly, spray and keep moist, make sure there's plenty of nutrients etc.

This is not brain surgery, it's just a terrarium for now.

Not much work once set up.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Mr BrownThumb

*WTH is this?*

I got home from work and i found these 'trails' in the condensation. Do you know what these are Tom? Gnats or mosquitoes breeding in the stagnant water that's pooling in there?


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## timwag2001

snails leave trails like that in algae.

but you said thats in condensation on the outside? that could be any type of insect crawling around on your tank.

what is the temp of your tank?


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## Mr BrownThumb

timwag2001 said:


> snails leave trails like that in algae.
> 
> but you said thats in condensation on the outside? that could be any type of insect crawling around on your tank.
> 
> what is the temp of your tank?


It's empty tim. those were inside on the condensation. Would the temp matter?

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/t...thumbs-60-gallon-journey-56k.html#post1102562


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## dundadundun

yes, temp matters... that and rh/gpp determine dewpoint (the temp at which water collects on solid surfaces)


----------



## timwag2001

hey dundadundun, welcome to the site! finally moved over from ac huh?


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## dundadundun

yeppers... been reading over here for years, figured i'd join in. lol


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## Chasintrades

Great read.


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## topfrog007

Seems like a humidifier/mister inside a sealed DSM tank would keep the plants moist for growth. Originally got this idea from reading AzFishKid's 150G journal. I'm trying this on my 240G DSM. Just bought a 19.99 humidifer from Walgreens.


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## Chasintrades

Has anybody noticed green algae on the substrate along the glass during the DSM?

I am getting some. Should I take a spoon and remove the infected area? I am also considering just letting things be until the DSM is fully complete and then doing a 3 day blackout, followed by 3 days of light before filling. 

Thoughts?

EDIT 
I am growing HC using ADA AS 1.


----------



## topfrog007

Chasintrades said:


> Has anybody noticed green algae on the substrate along the glass during the DSM?
> 
> I am getting some. Should I take a spoon and remove the infected area? I am also considering just letting things be until the DSM is fully complete and then doing a 3 day blackout, followed by 3 days of light before filling.
> 
> Thoughts?


I had this, mine is out of control and am debating what to do now...


----------



## Chasintrades

topfrog007 said:


> I had this, mine is out of control and am debating what to do now...



What are you debating?

Edit - I have been wipping it up from time to time. Seems to have cleared up.

Tom - Thanks for posting this info... 
Here is my journal on my DSM - filling it up in two weeks! 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/t...intradess-40b-journal-first-planted-tank.html


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## Jonez

Thread Resurrection. 
First post, great site. 

I have a quick question about the emerged method for HC:
Will I need some kind of heat source for optimal growth (such as a heat pad underneath the tanks glass)? Im not concerned about moisture/dew point (Im attentively spraying the tank daily), Im mostly concerned the colder temp in the winter causing die-off (Our house is only heated from 5pm to 9pm daily then we shut it off for the night and throughout the following work day).

Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks!!


----------



## IWANNAGOFAST

Yes, temperature will affect the growth of HC, I had my emmersed growth set up indoors over the summer, and I decided to move it to the back yard to use the sunlight. For a few nights, there was a cold snap and temps dropped to mid 50's and a lot of my HC died off.


----------



## dundadundun

hc struggles at or below 60*F for me too.  emersed....


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## MsNemoShrimp

plantbrain said:


> Wait mostly, spray and keep moist, make sure there's plenty of nutrients etc.
> 
> This is not brain surgery, it's just a terrarium for now.
> 
> Not much work once set up.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Mr. Tom, what is the optimal lighting to grow HC emersed in a 12G long? I currently have 26W 6500K but doesn't seem enough. The tank is only 9 inches deep minus the 1.5-2" substrate so the plant is literally only 7-7.5 inches under each 13W CFL light.

The 13W CFL is the "mini-spiral" that is actually rated at 13W but has the output of "60W". Not sure what to go by in such labeling...


----------



## DogFish

I was happy to see this thread asa I had intended to start this way. I haven't seen or I missed mention of doing this start with MTS. Is there any reason using MTS might not give good results?


----------



## plantbrain

DogFish said:


> I was happy to see this thread asa I had intended to start this way. I haven't seen or I missed mention of doing this start with MTS. Is there any reason using MTS might not give good results?


Nope, none at all, MTS works, so does washed wetland mud, worm castings, and a dozen other similar nutrient rich sources.

It actually will not require ANY mineralization with DSM........since the DSM takes about 4-8 weeks before you fill the tank, the roots and the water do the mineralization EVER better than the MTS thread possible could ever hope to.

Why? The bacteria are layered, in place and in close association to the roots.
If you disturb this and then dump this mix into the tank again, all that stbaility is now lost, then the roots need to grow in etc, with the DSM, that is already done.

ANYONE thinking of MTS should consider this, this will save you a few weeks that would be better spent growing plants:thumbsup:


----------



## demonr6

Too bad it would not work with dirt..


----------



## Chlorophile

demonr6 said:


> Too bad it would not work with dirt..


You tried it?
I see no reason why you couldn't dry start your carpet in dirt/potting soil.


----------



## DogFish

plantbrain said:


> Nope, none at all, MTS works, so does washed wetland mud, worm castings, and a dozen other similar nutrient rich sources.
> 
> ANYONE thinking of MTS should consider this, this will save you a few weeks that would be better spent growing plants:thumbsup:


Thanks Tom.

I will wash out / dry my TS anyway. I've already learned a valuable lesson when I set up my grow out tub and how much 'extras' are included in a bag of 
TS and worm casings. :eek5:

Another strong point is that I quarantine my fish for 45 days anyway. So there will be no compulsion to push the fill date.


----------



## DogFish

demonr6 said:


> Too bad it would not work with dirt..


Help a fellow Frat member out here, WHY?


----------



## demonr6

It does not seem to me that regular soil is one of the preferred methods. Then again it has been so long since this was active and MGOCPS looks relatively new to the forum that it simply may not have been included. I would like to think it would work but I am not well versed enough to say yay or nay. I would definitely risk it though if I were wanting to try it.


----------



## m00se

Ugh with these acronyms - what is DSM please?

Thanks


----------



## wearsbunnyslippers

Dry Start Method


----------



## m00se

Thank you! Cheers


----------



## DogFish

demonr6 said:


> ... I would definitely risk it though if I were wanting to try it.


Thanks, just wanted to be sure there wasn't some bizarre twist that would cause untold nightmares, like little zombies scratching their way to the surface between my E. Bellem 

:icon_mrgr


----------



## kamikazi

m00se said:


> Ugh with these acronyms - what is DSM please?
> 
> Thanks


There is a index of acronyms!


----------



## plantbrain

demonr6 said:


> Too bad it would not work with dirt..


Err, that is where and what I used when I thought up to suggest a the DSM actually..............delta clay mud.

Then I tried it on ADA AS.

But........DSM works better I'd say for the whole MTS folks philosophy than the method suggested in the MTS thread. Much better and I can back it up..........Also,m the same can be stated for folks doing fish less cycling(what do you think the DSM is??)


----------



## plantbrain

Chlorophile said:


> You tried it?
> I see no reason why you couldn't dry start your carpet in dirt/potting soil.


Yes, when I was in Australia with Diana Walstad, I mentioned the DSM, she tried it in a Non CO2 dirt tank and she had excellent results.

There's an articel on line about it(non CO2 and HC lawn)

I think it really makes sense on many levels, particularly so for the dirt tank folks more than perhaps any other. ADA fan boys too, but they(many) only do what Amano tells them.......


----------



## kamikazi

plantbrain said:


> Yes, when I was in Australia with Diana Walstad, I mentioned the DSM, she tried it in a Non CO2 dirt tank and she had excellent results.
> 
> There's an articel on line about it(non CO2 and HC lawn)
> 
> I think it really makes sense on many levels, particularly so for the dirt tank folks more than perhaps any other. ADA fan boys too, but they(many) only do what Amano tells them.......


I think I have a link to a pdf article written by diana in my walstad bowls journal. 

Found the link Walstad's pdf

The article lays out the two methods of start up, wet and dry.


----------



## plantbrain

kamikazi said:


> I think I have a link to a pdf article written by diana in my walstad bowls journal.
> 
> Found the link Walstad's pdf
> 
> The article lays out the two methods of start up, wet and dry.


Yep, that's the one.

Much like EI, I cannot claim credit for this, since I did not invent the terrarium nor the planted tank, just suggest using both in a sensible approach in an often non sensible hobby:tongue:.


----------



## DogFish

In regaurd to dolomite, I found a powdered supplement a local health food store:

Ingredients 

Iron 2 mg 

Magnesium (as Magnesium Carbonate from Dolomite Powder) 630 mg 

Calcium (as Calcium Carbonate from Dolomite Powder) 1100 mg 

Would a dusting of this work? I'm only seeing high tech sands & substrates(no dolomite) at the LFS that handle marine tanks.


----------



## Aquaman55g

*Love the idea of this way of setting up new aquarium*

Tom,

I was really intrigued with your ideas about how to start a new planted aquarium with aquarium soil and very little water. This does sound radical until you really stop and think about it logically - the first 2 months are the worst and if this method can eliminate most if not all of those problems I'm in.

I plan to start a second planted aquarium in the near future, using a 40 gallon breeder tank measuring 36 X 18 X 16, and after reading your post I now plan to utilize your method.
I do have some questions: Do you have any specific instructions besides what you stated in your post and if so how would I obtain them? Is aquarium soil similar to Eco Complete or Flourite substrate and can substrate be mixed with aquarium soil? Finally at what point in the aquarium set up process would I add my long soaking Mopani African wood and any stones? 

Thanks for your help and for the fresh ideas (there is always a better way)

Johnny R :bounce:


----------



## jargonchipmunk

Ne-Ne-Ne-NECRO THREEEEAAD.

Sorry. This 'bump' is for all the DSM newbs out there who need info. It is a good compilation of this methods, benefits and some things to stay away from. My last DSM attampt went horribly awry and this thread is the newest DSM specific thread I could find.


----------

