# Bare bottom



## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Hey guys, 
I recently mad my tank bare bottom with potted plants, again. I finished two days ago and all I have are a few potted swords with flourish tabs in the pot, flourite in the pot and I use flourish iron once a week after my 40% Sunday water changes. The water, as of two days ago, is 100% new with my filter still having the bacteria out of the old water. I am starting to see a green tint to my water. I cant feed less bc I am raising a few discus and they require a lot of feedings. What could be causing it and how do I fix it?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Don't leave your lights on so long (you might try a complete blackout for 4 days or so if the water gets really bad), and a UV sterilizer will keep the problem from coming back... you could also try some of Seachem's chemical media products in your filter.

What are your water params?


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

I will test the water in a few, would making the lights go for a four hour cycle then an hour off and another four hour cycle work?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I don't know that would make any difference- if you're at 8hrs/day now, try reducing to 6 hrs? Or unscrew one bulb if you have 2 bulbs?


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

I have a coralife and I only run 1 bulb at a time. They are 96 watts a piece. I run it from 9-5. When I do water changes, I began using a bacteria supplement, just recently b4 the problem started. Would that have anything to do with it?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Well, any change is suspect- though that would seem counter-intuitive to me? What bacteria supplement are you using?

96watts over how many gallons? AHSupply fixture?


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

It is a 29 gallon and the bacteria supplement is the cheap top fin. I also stopped using my pH buffer not too long ago, although I doubt that has anything to do with it. I know its not the light because I have had the light for a while and never had GW.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I've never heard of the top fin bacteria supplement. Is it supposed to be adding live bacteria? From what I've been reading I'm starting to have serious doubts about all claims that products add live bacteria... if that's the only change you've made, I would discontinue it, do some serious water changes and reduce the hours of lighting, and see what happens?


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Ok, about the reduce in light hours, wont that also be bad for the plants? I am going to try the water change and use the pH buffer not the bacteria and see what happens. Would better water movement help?
The bottle says it introduces beneficial bacteria.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I doubt it- you've got some heavy duty lighting. You can always reduce it just long enough to get rid of all the green water and then try cranking it back up again once you're sure it's all gone, if your plants seem to be suffering.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

water movement? Your answering too fast! lol its ok though


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

oops sorry- I was answering your lighting question.

I doubt that increasing your water movement will help, unless your movement is super-slow or you have dead spots.

What was the reason you were wanting to add bacteria?


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

I started using it because I messed up bad and restarted the nitrogen cycle again so I used it to speed that up. I dont know why I keep using it. The tank has 100% new water thats two days old and already is a little green. Something has to be throwing it quick. Maybe the flourish iron,? I have been using that for a lil bit now.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Are you sure this is an algae problem and not a bacteria bloom? What are your water parameters?


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

The water has a green tint to it so I assume it is an algae problem. 
The only tests I was told to buy are nitrite and pH
Nitrite 0 pH6.6
How can I tell if it is algae or bacteria?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Ammonia and nitrAte tests would also be helpful, especially if you have had some cycling issues. The 0ppm nitrIte reading could mean that you either have enough N-bacteria, or that you have *no* N-bacteria; hard to know without comparing that reading to ammonia and nitrAte readings?

You could put something clean and white in the tank and look at it to verify that the green really is coming from the water and not just reflecting off the plants...


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

I stuck a piece of paper in and it looks white, not green. When it got close to the plants it looked green. But the wall is cream and with the fish lights off,the wall behind the looks greener. Which test would be better to get if I had to choose? Or do i need both?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If it looks white, then I think you have a bacteria bloom- which means that your tank still has some cycling issues. 

If you can only afford one test- get the ammonia. Ammonia is the one that will be the most toxic to your discus. If you get any reading more than 0ppm on your ammonia then your tank is for sure not cycled, and I would strongly advise you to rehome the discus while you get that issue straightened out- discus are possibly the worst fish on the face of the plant to try to get to survive a tank cycle.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

How big of a water change should I try to get rid of some of the extra bacteria? Then ill use my ammonia eliminator and see what happens. If nothing, Ill get the water tested tom afternoon.

BTW, over all , against the wall the water looks green, even with the tank lights off.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Well getting some ammonia and nitrIte readings over a few days will for sure rule out a cycling issue if they consistently read 0ppm.

I would also recommend you test your tap water.

I would do a 50% change today to be on the safe side... what chemical(s) are you using to treat your water?

Are you using RO water for the discus? How big are they and how many do you have?


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

I use aquasafe dechlorinator and wardley pH setter with ammonia remover. I have 4 about 3-4inch discus. 

No RO water. I do not have access to a large supply and through all the people I have talked to about discus, it is not really necessary unless I am trying to raise perfect dinner plate discus.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

I'm late to the party, but if I understand correctly you took all the substrate out of an already running aquarium, right? 

A bacterial bloom is pretty much an absolute in that case, the substrate is a huge component of the biofilter. If the plant mass has changed significantly too, without a change in the lighting or fertilization scheme (if any) then an algae bloom of green water is pretty likely too.

The unfortunate thing here is that the treatment for one will prolong the other.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I strongly recommend you rehome the discus till you get your tank stable. 3-4" are very young, and they *might* have been fine if the issue were really an algae bloom, but at this point I'm pretty sure it's a cycling issue.

EDIT- just saw your post- welcome to the party Indi!


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Yes, I took all the gravel out but used 100% new water with the filter cartridges still soaked in the water from the tank b4. The plant mass is the same and I am using less ferts, no flourish or excel. I now have flourish tabs in the pots and use weekly flourish iron after water change. 

I really think this is an algae issue. When I messed up the tank before (washing out all the filter cartridges under tap water) I had an AWFUL white cloud for about a week. SO I know what cycling looks like for sure.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

You may not have quite the same degree of cycling issue you had before if you saved the media from the filter, but Indi is 100% dead on that if you just removed all your substrate you took a huge amount of the tank's N-bacteria out with it- I still say this sounds like cycling.

But again, checking the ammonia and nitrAtes will be the best way to rule that out. IMO you need those tests anyways to ensure that you are changing out enough water after feeding the discus.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

It did this same thing before I took out all the gravel, it was worse, but the same thing. SHould I just do a huge water change and not use the bacteria and see what happens?


PS I will buy the tests


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I would do 50% and not use the bacteria. Then get those test readings tomorrow and we can see where we stand?


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Sounds good. I am going to do a water change and go to bed, I will post in tom. after I pick up the tests. Thanks for the help, talk to you tom.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Nite!


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

I did about a 10 gallon water change last night and the green tint seems to be gone. I used the pH buffer and not the bacteria supplement and not only is the water better, the discus seem A LOT happier. I also did not use the flourish iron, do you think I need to since I have the flourish tabs in the pots?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Did you get that ammonia tested? IMO ruling out cycling issues is a bigger priority before moving on to alternate possibilities- even very low amounts of ammonia can kill discus.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

I did not get a chance to get the test. I will see about tom. I am thinking about getting a UV sterilizer sometime in the very near future, just to make sure the water stays perfect.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

UV sterilizers are expensive, but if it is an algae problem, it would clear that up very quickly.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

I actually found a decent one on petsmart for 30 bucks with the pump included. The only drawback is the whole thing goes in the tank but I can spare the corner behind a sword for perfect water. It also gets rid if the white fungus which I have a problem with on my wood, hoses and glass. So it'll be nice to not have to clean it every other day. I am going to have petsmart test my water for now and I will buy the tests at another time. If my tank is recycling then there is nothing I can do for it anyway and all my other problems would be fixed by the sterilizer. My question now is should I get the 9 watt or the 24 watt?


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## EricSilver (Feb 23, 2004)

New2plants said:


> Hey guys,
> I use flourish iron once a week after my 40% Sunday water changes.


There you go. How much flourish are you using? 

Nothing has accelerated green algae growth in my tanks faster than dosing with (too much) Flourish Iron.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

I use the recommended daily dosage once a week. Before I removed the gravel, I used it once a day. What about the watts for the UV sterilizer? The 24 is way bigger than the 9 and they go in the tank so I am hoping 9 watts will be plenty for my 29 bare bottom. 
Opinions?


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## EricSilver (Feb 23, 2004)

New2plants said:


> I use the recommended daily dosage once a week. Before I removed the gravel, I used it once a day. What about the watts for the UV sterilizer? The 24 is way bigger than the 9 and they go in the tank so I am hoping 9 watts will be plenty for my 29 bare bottom.
> Opinions?


A 9W UV sterilizer will work more slowly than a 24W, but will do the same job. Also, to compensate for the loss of substrate, you might also look at ways to increase the net surface area of your filter media.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

New2plants said:


> I actually found a decent one on petsmart for 30 bucks with the pump included. The only drawback is the whole thing goes in the tank but I can spare the corner behind a sword for perfect water. It also gets rid if the white fungus which I have a problem with on my wood, hoses and glass. So it'll be nice to not have to clean it every other day. I am going to have petsmart test my water for now and I will buy the tests at another time. If my tank is recycling then there is nothing I can do for it anyway and all my other problems would be fixed by the sterilizer. My question now is should I get the 9 watt or the 24 watt?


The sterilizer will have no impact on whatever does not come under the bulb- that is why so many people use them in their filtration system, since the water for sure cycles through the sterilizer serveral times per hour.

Having petsmart test your water will tell you if you have a water problem right that second and so cannot rule out cycling issues. I strongly recommend that you prioritize a test kit over a UV sterilizer in a discus tank, especially with your recent cycling issues. A good master test kit should only run you around $20.

Again, algae will not kill discus, ammonia will.


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## ummyeah (Jul 8, 2007)

Stop using chemicals. pH buffers mess with the water and are bad for plants. Either use peat or RO/DI. You do not need a UV sterilizer, you just need *time and patience*. Bacteria blooms will clear up by themselves. Don't use any Top Fin products. Stop using live bacteria too, who knows what is in that bottle. It sure is not "*live*" bacteria.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

I am going to use tap water. RO/DI is unnecessary in my situation. Is aquasafe a good enough dechlorinator? Also, since the water has a GREEN tint, I think it is safe to say that I have an algae problem. *This same problem was there before I took out the gravel.* I use double sponge and double bio filtration in my aquaclear so the possibility of a recycling is very low. I stopped using the bacteria by top fin. Is prime a better dechlorinator? What chemicals should I use for new water?


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## EricSilver (Feb 23, 2004)

I looked up the UV filter you are referring to and 1.) 9W would be more than enough for your needs; and 2.) The customer reviews are very positive (as I am sure you are aware). 

After you have tested the water, ideally several times over several days, and it is certain you are suffering only from an algae outbreak, the UV sterilizer, from what the customers are saying, will solve your problem. Quckly. 

But if you have cycling issues, and excessive ammonia/nitrites, the UV Sterilizer will only give you crystal clear water, through which you can more easily see your dead discus. 

That being said, I once considered a UV sterilizer for control of pathogens and parasites (which are guaranteed when feeding live food), but felt the $$$ cost was not justifiable for a small tank. But at $29.99, the cost becomes negligible, and now I will probably get one.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

LOL sorry but the crystal clear water through which you can better see your dead discus made my day! The reviews are excellent as well as the price, and in a bare bottom, the fact that you can see the whole thing in the tank does not bother me. Also, wouldn't the discus be dead already having been in the tank for three days, if there was a cycling issue? Again, what chemicals for new water, is the aquasafe fine?


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

I've not used aquasafe, but if you have it, it's supposed to do the job. 

I recommend Seachem prime if you don't have the aquasafe, or for whenever you run out of the current stuff. It's the least expensive per volume of water treated and is generally regarded as 'the best' there is for our purposes.

You really need to let the bacterial bloom settle before treating the green water, if you use a UV sterilizer while you have a bacterial bloom you'll only prolong the situation.

Like I said before, you removed a very large portion of your biological filtration when you took the gravel out. This is an absolute, not an "I think" situation. The bacteria that was on the substrate needs to regrow and while it's looking for a new home to settle on, it'll be a cloud in the tank. It may not be as severe as in the past, but there is no question that bacteria is a component of this bloom. 

The very best advice I can give is to leave the aquarium be, you've seriously disturbed the biological processes in the tank and that'll need to recover. Green water is harmless and if anything it's feeding on the ammonia that your biological filtration isn't capable of handling right now.


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## EricSilver (Feb 23, 2004)

New2plants said:


> Also, wouldn't the discus be dead already having been in the tank for three days, if there was a cycling issue? Again, what chemicals for new water, is the aquasafe fine?


Not if the ammonia levels were low. The concern now is whether they will increase. 

What people have been saying is that you lost a substantial portion of your biofilter when you removed the substrate. Your double-filtration setup is very robust, however there will still be a time interval during which the size of the bacteria colonies on the filter media and, to a lesser extent, on your plant leaves, must increase to compensate for the capacity lost when you removed the substrate. During that interval, it is likely that ammonia levels will increase.

Think of it as losing a kidney; the other one will soon increase in size and take on the burden of the other, but that will not happen immediately, and your blood chemistry will be more toxic than usual until it does, unless you alter your diet.

Your biofilter is like your kidneys, and your fish/food wastes are the source of toxins. Since you cannot lighten your feeding cycles, your biofilter will be overburdened until the bacteria colony reestablishes itself. That will take a while. 

Since you are only two or three days into your new setup, and because you frequently feed your fish, ammonia levels have had enough time to build to detectable levels, so you will want to test your water ASAP. 

As for chemicals for new water, my recommendation is: None. Use the money you would spend on de-chlorinators to buy gallon-bottles of distilled water. (WalMart is about 60 cents/gal.)

If, after your water change you detect ammonia, play it safe and get the only bacteria additive that works: Marineland’s BioSpira. I used this after I set my tank up and grew impatient with the cycling. Worked within 24 hours, as promised. Used it again on a coworker’s aquarium, whose ammonia levels were deadly. In that case, it took an entire 48 hours to bring them down to zero. 

When the cycling issues are resolved - - or are proven to be nonexistent – then get the UV filter.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

That's 3 people telling you the same thing, now...


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Ok, so I will test the water. If the ammonia test comes out to 0 then am I in good shape to go ahead and set in the UV Sterilizer? If not, should I do water changes or leave it alone? Are nitrates important to test or just make sure nitrites stay 0?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

N-bacteria convert ammonia into nitrIte in one stage, nitrIte into nitrAte in the next stage. You need to run tests on all three of those chemicals across several different days to make sure that your cycle is working properly and that enough bacteria have established in your tank to handle your current bioload. 

You also need to run those tests on the tap water you are adding so that you have a baseline to compare your tank stats with. Some people may have any or all of those chemicals already in their tapwater, so that needs to be taken into account.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

So if everything is running right, a few days of tests should show that I have some Nitrate no nitrite and no ammonia?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Exactly.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Ok I got it now. I will go get the tests tom. I am going to go ahead and get the UV also for when the cycling is figured out, then I can fix the green and all will be good.
Thanks for the help. 
Ill post tom and let you guys know how the tests go.
When would be the best time to test? Before I feed them, after, in the morning?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

In the morning before you make any additional changes, and then at least once a day after that. 

If you do have ammonia and need to make water changes, you will need to test again after each one. Even 0.25ppm ammonia is way too high for discus...

It takes a bit for uneaten food to decompose and contribute to these parameters so testing right after a feeding should not show any change.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

So if it is around dinner time, shouldnt I expect there to be some kind of ammonia/nitrite?


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

No, in a properly functioning/well running aquarium you'll never have detectable ammonia or nitrite.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Ok thanks a lot. I didnt want to test the water after a feeding and freak out to find high levels. I will do the test later as soon as I get the test.


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## EricSilver (Feb 23, 2004)

New2plants said:


> Ok thanks a lot. I didnt want to test the water after a feeding and freak out to find high levels. I will do the test later as soon as I get the test.


Decomposition doesn't happen that fast, so you won't see changes immediately after a feeding. 

FYI, if your don't test water regularly, some excellent "indicator fish" are Cories. If, when not hunting food, they sit quietly on the bottom, your water is fine. If they endlessly surf along the glass, something is wrong. They are like canaries in a coal mine. 

Red Phantom Tetras are also very sensitive indicator fish, but they take it a step too far and simply die when something is wrong with the water, but they react before Cories do.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Ok tested the water today after a full day of 5 feedings

pH-6.5
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - little over 2.5
Ammonia - Little tiny bit over 0
Testes the ammonia twice to make sure and at about 5 mins a minute bit a green tint came

Seems good top me esp. after 5 feedings. What do you guys think?
PS The feedings were all over 5 hours before the test

If corys are an indicator, unless I am feeding, they are just kind of sitting there.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I don't know what "a little bit of green came" means in relation to your particular ammonia test?

Were those readings before or after any water changes?

How much water are you changing and how frequently?

Did you test your tap water yet?

It would take at least a day or two for food from a feeding to show up in your tests. Food doesn't decompose that fast.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Ive been feeding them for many days, since they have been in the tank, I havent done a water change since I originally posted. By a little green, I mean the ammonia was almost 0. It wasnt up to .25. It was about .175.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Tap numbers
pH - 7.5
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 0
Ammonia - 1.0

So what do you guys think?


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## SearunSimpson (Jun 5, 2007)

Add daphnia maybe?


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

I kind of read these numbers to mean that the water is fine and my tank is cycled correctly. Any of you guys that have been following this think otherwise? Or agree?


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Btw this morning ammonia tested at 0ppm


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

New2plants said:


> I kind of read these numbers to mean that the water is fine and my tank is cycled correctly. Any of you guys that have been following this think otherwise? Or agree?


So between yesterday evening "dinner" and 12:30am, your ammonia went from 0.175-ish to 1.0? 

No, that's not cycled. 

Your ammonia should never get over 0, and I'm totally at a loss why you would not do daily water changes if you're feeding your discus 5x/day?


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Ok you completely missed what I said. The TAP WATER reading out of the sink is 1 for ammonia, 0 nitrate and 0 nitrite. My tank at 6 oclock at night was about .175 and the next morning, at about 8 the test read 0, with nitrates a little over 2.5 and no nitrites. I didnt change water yet so my numbers wouldn't be messed up and I could get you guys a reading. I ussually do 40 % changes weekly and as needed.

Sound better? lol


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Yep much- you're right, I missed the "tap water" heading when I was scrolling back. :icon_redf 

IMO you would still do better with daily PWC with that kind of feeding regime. And if my tap water read 1.0 ammonia I would dilute with RO or distilled during WC.

Your discus will probably survive and grow either way, but not display their full potential in regards to growth, color and longevity. Juvie discus are just super-sensitive to ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.

You ever read Jack Wattley's discus column in Tropical Fish Hobbyist? Incredible magazine- I highly recommend it.

How's the water clarity now?


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## EricSilver (Feb 23, 2004)

New2plants said:


> Tap numbers
> pH - 7.5
> Nitrite - 0
> Nitrate - 0
> ...



Are you, by chance, in nothern Virgina? The water here is so toxic that a 50% change with untreated tap water will kill every fish, and a 60-70% change will melt every plant. 

Is your 40% weekly water change really necessary? You have good filtration, and your ammonia/nitrites are under control -- except when you add tap water -- so why not do smaller weekly changes, i.e. 10%, with distilled water?


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

No I dont live in Northern VA.
THe water is def having an algae problem. The water is pretty green. I ordered the UV sterilizer last night. Im about to siphon out the poop and do a water change.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If it is algae, then actually the PWCs may be part of the problem- you're adding in the ammonia that is keeping it going.

Doing more frequent less volume changes with RO or distilled water might just kill 2 birds with one stone - the discus would love it and it would starve algae in the water column.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Ya I would do that but I do not have a lot of money to buy the water. I ordered the UV sterilizer which will control the algae since I do not have access to that kind of water in volume nor money for it every week. Once I go home for the summer, I will be able to use spring water so itll be a little better. Im gonna see what the UV does in conjunction to my water changes and Ill most likely cut down on them and only change enough water to siphon off the bottom of the tank. Since I know my tank is cycled now, I am not so worried about it. I may invest in an RO system if I decide to try and breed my next batch of discus. Either way, this summer I want to get a canister filter with a built in UV, and then the RO system. Any more suggestions?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If transporting the water isn't an issue, I'd check out your LFS about RO water before ruling it out for sure- alot of them produce and will sell it for VERY cheap.

My last suggestion would be to significantly increase your plant-load with some nutrient-hog stems like wisteria, bacopa, water sprite, etc to try and out-compete the algae?


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

How would I do that in a barebottom setup? All I am keeping now are swords and lotus' bc they can get a lot from there roots. I have them in clay pots with flourish tabs in flourite. What other plants could I keep in pots that would be EASY to keep in a pot with little or no ferts and a lot of light? 

Id put a tab in the pot with what ever plant I got.

Transporting the water would be an issue. Ill just save for a home system over the summer.


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## EricSilver (Feb 23, 2004)

New2plants said:


> No I dont live in Northern VA.
> THe water is def having an algae problem. The water is pretty green. I ordered the UV sterilizer last night. Im about to siphon out the poop and do a water change.



After the UV sterilizer arrives, will you stop the frequent water changes? The algae might not be nice to look at, but it is not harming your fish. 

I plan to get the sterilizer as well, to destroy parasites, so I can have neons again. In the past, they always succumbed to some form of parasite (or perhaps neon tetra disease) which I hope the sterilizer will prevent.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

The UV sterilizer kills water born algae, as all the reviews say. The design keeps the water in front of the UV long enough to kill parasites AND algae. Thats why I felt it was a good way to invest my money. And yes, I am planning on cutting water changes to a little every couple of days to clean poop off the bottom once the UV arrives. ALso, for the RO, my LFS(or any within 50 miles, do not do the RO thing, which is why I buy fish from a place by school. They are much better quality than the ones by my house.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

New- it's possible to keep any rooted/stem plant in a pot. You can always buy little plastic pots and fill them with substrate and root tabs yourself.

Eric- I strongly recommend that you QT tetras in 1/2 tsp/gallon for 2-4 weeks before adding them to a tank. The vast majority of the small tetras in the hobby are either wild-caught or farmed in Asia, and so either come with parasites from nature or are very weakend from their overseas trip. Since they are so small and cheap, they typically are handled pretty roughly and not in great shape by the time they reach you. I typically lose 1/3 my stock during QT, but rarely lose any once they've completed their QT and I transfer them over to my main tanks.


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## EricSilver (Feb 23, 2004)

New2plants said:


> The UV sterilizer kills water born algae, as all the reviews say.


Out of curiosity, why did you decide to go with a bare tank?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Juvenile discus, feeding fatty meaty foods 5x/day- need to avoid that getting into the substrate.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

I found it to be REALLY hard and take a lot of money to keep a gravel bottom planted tank with the amount of light I have and no pressurized Co2. It is also a lot easier to deal with when being a music major in college. Another big reason was the health of my discus. The tank is technically big enough for a few of them, I just need as many ways of keeping good water as possible, bare bottom lets me do that in my size tank. 
Were you not aware that the UV kills water born algae?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

No I'm very aware that a UV will kill water-born algae- it will kill every microorganism that comes within wavelength- I'm just not sure how much good it will do outside of a closed loop filtration system. I'm not sure that all your algae will circulate close enough to it in an open tank? Haven't ever tried it personally, though, so who knows?


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## EricSilver (Feb 23, 2004)

lauraleellbp said:


> The vast majority of the small tetras in the hobby are either wild-caught or farmed in Asia,


I did not realize they were still wild-caught, and had assumed they were all farm bred, and genetically weakened (and disease prone),because of in-breeding.

The specific parasite that afflicted mine was a mass of worm-like white growths at the base of the spine just before the tail, which would then spread to my Phantom Tetras and Cories.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Which plants can I get away with that are EASY and dont require any ferts but will thrive in a pot with root tabs?

Most of the reviews are people using cheap filters and it def worked for them so I see no reason it wouldn't for me. I just have to aim the power head so that the water circulates the right way around the tank to get all the water through it. Sound like a fair plan to you?


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## EricSilver (Feb 23, 2004)

New2plants said:


> Were you not aware that the UV kills water born algae?


Yes I was/am. My focus is on destruction of parasites and pathogens, with algae control as a side effect.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

EricSilver said:


> I did not realize they were still wild-caught, and had assumed they were all farm bred, and genetically weakened (and disease prone),because of in-breeding.
> 
> The specific parasite that afflicted mine was a mass of worm-like white growths at the base of the spine just before the tail, which would then spread to my Phantom Tetras and Cories.


The profit margin on them is so small and they are so plentiful in their natural environments that the majority of small tetras are still wild-caught (South American tetras, anyways). I actually prefer locally bred stock; genetic diversity isn't an issue in a species that is still so plentiful and exported so frequently from the wild. Locally-bred are typically twice to 3x as expensive though, because of that profit-margin issue.

No idea what that parasite might have been but sounds horrible! Also, know that unless it had a larval stage that moved through the open water column, a UV sterilizer wouldn't have touched it...

Don't mean to hijack your thread New!


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Its all good, as long as you keep answering my questions !LOL

What about what i asked in the earlier post. My assumption about the uv.


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## EricSilver (Feb 23, 2004)

lauraleellbp said:


> I'm just not sure how much good it will do outside of a closed loop filtration system. I'm not sure that all your algae will circulate close enough to it in an open tank? Haven't ever tried it personally, though, so who knows?


The unit he is referring to, and which I plan to get as well, is essentially a second filtration system. Judging from a video I saw, it could also be jacked into an existing filter system, through the creative use of hoses/tubing, since the pump and UV element are separate components.


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## EricSilver (Feb 23, 2004)

lauraleellbp said:


> No idea what that parasite might have been but sounds horrible! Also, know that unless it had a larval stage that moved through the open water column, a UV sterilizer wouldn't have touched it...


I actually think the parasites were transported with live blackworms. Also, despite Hikari (and other providers) claiming their frozen bloodworms and mosquito larvae are parasite free, outbreaks have occured after feeding those as well.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

oops sorry I missed this post alltogether- you posted it while i was writing LOL



New2plants said:


> Which plants can I get away with that are EASY and dont require any ferts but will thrive in a pot with root tabs?
> 
> Most of the reviews are people using cheap filters and it def worked for them so I see no reason it wouldn't for me. I just have to aim the power head so that the water circulates the right way around the tank to get all the water through it. Sound like a fair plan to you?


Hygrophila, Egeria, Ludwigia, and Bacopa are all good nutrient hogs.

I have no idea if that UV plan will work or not, but if it's not too expensive I suppose it's worth a try?

IMO I'd want to address the source of the problem- which is likely the ammonia in your tap water. Especially since it's problematic to the discus, as well. Beefing up the plants is probably the best option if RO/distilled water just isn't.


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## EricSilver (Feb 23, 2004)

New2plants said:


> I found it to be REALLY hard and take a lot of money to keep a gravel bottom planted tank with the amount of light I have and no pressurized Co2. ... Another big reason was the health of my discus. The tank is technically big enough for a few of them, I just need as many ways of keeping good water as possible, bare bottom lets me do that in my size tank.


Perhaps consider a thin substrate layer with no plants in it? That would significantly increase your biofiltration capacity (and thus the quality of your water), and conceal fish wastes while facilitating their decomposition. 

It would also provide a nice "canvas" for the potted plants, making the setup look more attractive.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

I am almost positive the light is the problem as I never had problems with green water till I got the light. Of those plants, which would you guarantee to live with only root tabs and no Co2 or fert? How about plants that attach to the wood? Are my swords good for anything?

I would rather leave bare bottom, it has worked before so I do not want to fix what is not broken.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Eric- in a juvenile discus tank the goal is to avoid food decomposition all together. Otherwise it will stunt their growth. (Most large-scale fish breeders actually use bare-bottomed tanks, for the same reason. They don't try to maintain a cycle at all- they want perfect water chemistry and run massive filtration/water replacement programs.)

Eric- there's no guarantees, but those plants are pretty forgiving, and definitely don't need CO2. Hygro is actually such a hardy crazy-growing weed that it's outlawed in many states (like mine).

Your swords are not a problem- they just don't grow fast enough to be as efficient nutrient-hogs as stem plants do.

Floating plants like frogbit would actually be good, too- they would shade the water from algae and discus love hiding underneath floating plants.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Ammonia in the tap water and your lighting is indeed a recipe for green water, especially with such little plant mass.

You have a bare tank with a couple plants, not a planted tank with fish. The rules change. It's my opinion that you need to consider lighting from the standpoint of an ordinary fish tank. If you were to put substrate back in, heavily plant it, with CO2, the likelihood of success would greatly increase.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Ah sounds good. I have fliourish, flourish excel, and flourish iron. For the current swords and lotus, what would suggest I use how often?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Indie- not with juvenile discus! lol Feeding meaty fatty foods like beefheart 5x/day- that's going to be too much on just about any cycle!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

New2plants said:


> Ah sounds good. I have fliourish, flourish excel, and flourish iron. For the current swords and lotus, what would suggest I use how often?


I'd say do nothing but root tabs. Leave nutrients out of the water column as much as possible.

Save those for after the discus grow up and you can put together a fully planted tank like Indie suggested.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

No e.

The fish inside the tank are secondary to my advise. I don't really care about the crazy lengths some people will go to for these silly fish. If the OP is pumping 96 watts of PC into the 29 gallon tank from 9-5, with ammonia in the tap water, this will be a never-ending problem without dramatically increasing the plant mass by converting it to a true planted aquarium.

If the bare bottom discus raising is the goal, drop the lighting down significantly and forget about plants, if not entirely, at least choosing low light species that don't need special care. The two goals are in contradiction and these 7 pages of flailing about will continue forever until the OP picks one or the other.

It's not my intention to be rude or insensitive here, but I just cannot possibly see this endeavor being successful without a dramatic change.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

LOL

Agree about the lighting, but you've obviously never been bitten by the discus bug!


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

I don't think anyone could pay me enough to deal with discus, but that's beside the point really.


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## EricSilver (Feb 23, 2004)

indiboi said:


> I don't really care about the crazy lengths some people will go to for these silly fish.


I have to agree it seems like a LOT of work to raise those fish. :eek5:


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Truth be told most large-scale fish farms either breed in outdoor ponds or if they have to breed indoors they automate most of this in bare-bottomed tanks.

Issue comes in when we FW hobbyists who are not used to paying the prices full-grown discus command (which is still much less than many many SW fish) want to save $$ and buy and raise juvie discus ourselves...


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Really, once I get the UV sterilizer there will be no problems whatsoever. I will take the advice and not use ferts and get a few more fast growing plants, prolly floating.
Indi - I dont see the big problem you do.....The "flailing" was them trying to convince me what I didnt want to hear, which we solved already. The only problem now is green water, IE the UV sterilizer. Problem solved.


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## EricSilver (Feb 23, 2004)

New2plants said:


> ... and get a few more fast growing plants.


A cheap, readily available option is Hygrophilia Difformis (Wisteria) which is always in stock at PetsMart, and can be rooted in a pot, or left free-floating. It will get big fast, and suck down any available nutrients.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Cracks me up how many ppl have viewed this thread- I'm pretty sure it's b/c of the title ROFLMBO


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Thank you. I am really confused as to what the huge deal Indi is making came from. We talked for a while and found that my tank is cycled and stable and that I need to slow water changes, and for my personal taste, eliminate the green water. That does not seem like a HUGE problem to me. Making my tank a planted tank is what messed me up in the first place. I wouldn't dare do it again. The UV sterilizer will take care of the green water and just for the sake of being safe, I will add some wisteria and floating plants. Did I miss where this became a MAJOR problem?


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Ya, the title is a little out of place on this page! LOL

Plus the unintended implication!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Don't worry about it- I think from his perspective the problem was self-evident pretty early on but he had to read through a gob-zillion posts to catch up to where you are now... his advice is always spot-on, just came across as a little frustrated tonight, and I wouldn't take it personally?


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

The point I'm trying to make is that the green water situation will be ongoing, because this tank is way over lit for the plant mass. Zapping the algae with a UV sterilizer will just be like zapping it to take care of a bacterial bloom -- covering it up, it's pretty much inevitable under these conditions. The 'no problems whatsoever once I get a UVS' line of thinking is flawed. 

I didn't bring this up before because it was quite secondary to making sure the fish weren't being killed by high ammonia and nitrite. Now we that we're reasonably sure that the fish aren't swimming around in a cess pool, we can move on to the other issues with the setup.

You may be comfortable running a tank on the brink of disaster, being held together by the metaphorical duct tape that a UVS would be, but I certainly am not. I would much rather correct the issues and have the UVS become unnecessary. 

The UVS to "fix" the problem of too much light and not enough plant mass, is exactly the same sort of 'don't want to hear' as the recycling issue early on, at least from my point of view.

I'll step out of the conversation if you wish, but I didn't intend anything I said to be a personal attack. My neighbor's dog and its non-stop barkathons for the last month have probably driven me to the very brink of insanity. The comment about crazy lengths people go for discus wasn't directed at you, New2plants, but was just sort of one of those things that slipped out... just had to get it off my chest.

I guess the bottom line is that there are fish tanks with plants and planted tanks with fish. This would be a fish tank with plants.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

I have a dumb question, can I get a lower wattage bulb for my fixture?

It seems like that is the kind of "Big Change" you are talking about. 

I didnt take it personally, Indi, its just that the tank is stable, and in no way on the brink of disaster. The algae is a result of too much light, and by using the UV, it seems to me that then I would have stable water and no algae. I still do not get where the brink of disaster is. If I can get a lower wattage bulb for my fixture, then I will for sure. But if not, the UV is going to have to control the algae.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Brink of disaster is hyperbole. 

I consider a tank unstable if one needs to use chemicals or UVS to keep it stable. If you need to use the UVS to keep the water clear, which it so truly sounds like your intention is, or at least was, then I consider the UVS to be "duct tape" holding the tank together. 

Many ballasts are capable of handling several wattages, but I don't know if your fixture's ballast would accept a lower wattage bulb.


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## EricSilver (Feb 23, 2004)

New2plants said:


> I have a dumb question, can I get a lower wattage bulb for my fixture?


Here's an easier, cheaper option: Go to a camera store (or their web site), i.e. Penn Camera, Ritz or other place that sells professional photo equipment and pick up some "gels." These are thin plastic sheets used to diffuse and/or color photo floodlights. They are waterproof, very heat resistant, and cost just a few dollars.

Get one or more translusent/diffuser white sheets, cut them to a size that covers your light, scotch tape them into place, and you will reduce your light intensity. Visually, you might not notice a big difference, but the algae definitely will.

I do this to control algae and it definitely works.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Indi - So what you are saying is that there is nothing wrong with doing this, but if it was up to you you would get more plants or less light. Correct? IOW, my tank would be fine with the UV and current lighting, you would just rather get rid of the green water in a way other than the UV if it were your tank.?

And the "duct tape" would only be there to get rid of the green, not to keep the water chemically healthy


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If it were my tank and I had that amount of ammonia in my tap water but no economical way to cut that, I'd take the cheapest route- lower the photoperiod and get floating plants. Keep up with PWCs. I think those would make the discus happy, and strike a happy medium.

In my book, the fauna always take priority over the flora


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

The thing is, once the water runs in the tank, the ammonia disappears. I def will get some floating plants and the UV will kill the algae caused by the 8 hour photo period, as the Lotus likes that much light, I may just do 6 hours and split it into 2 3 hour periods(Is that ok?). What water changes would you recommend?


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

I think that the UVS will indeed get rid of the green water, but I also think it'll come back whenever you turn it off. That'll then likely lead to just running it 24/7 to keep the water clear.

I think of your lighting and tank setup to be sort of like a leaking roof. When it rains you can set pots and pans under the leaks. One could also, instead, have the roof repaired.

Lowering the wattage, going for the slower growing plants like Anubias and Java fern that you could tie onto some driftwood, that to me is like having the roof repaired. 

Using the UVS to keep the green water from appearing is, from my perspective, more like placing the pots and pans out when it rains.

Pots and pans are okay, for a short while, but fixing the roof is by far the better idea.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Hard to say exactly- enough to ensure that no debris ever accumulates on the bottom and that nitrite nitrate and ammonia are at or as close to 0 as possible?

Minimum of once a week, preferably more often. 

Discus in a closed system secrete hormones that will inhibit each other's growth- especially any discus that starts to attain a size advantage. This is another reason that PWC are essential with juvie discus.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

I was actually planning on running it 24/7, for the sake of algae and keeping the water as perfect as possible for the discus. I dont have money for new lights but if I could use a lower wattage bulb, I would do that. Anybody know if I can, and if so how many watts I should go for?

I though some Nitrate was necessary?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I don't remember your fixture at this point (lol I know it's back there somewhere) but in general fixtures won't accept bulbs that are much more than 10watts off- so that really won't help you that much.

Shortening the photoperiod is probably easier as well as cheaper than trying to replace your bulbs.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

New2plants said:


> I was actually planning on running it 24/7, for the sake of algae and keeping the water as perfect as possible for the discus. I dont have money for new lights but if I could use a lower wattage bulb, I would do that. Anybody know if I can, and if so how many watts I should go for?
> 
> I though some Nitrate was necessary?


Here's where you have to choose which is more important to you- your discus or your plants.

IMO you are getting the plants solely to address an ammonia in your tap water issue- the ammonia will feed the plants- you're not trying to get the best growth possible out of the plants.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Ok, if thats all I can do, then I might as well leave it, as my plants are alive, and just let the UV take care of the green water. It seems to me like the best option for me. If I had money to buy a new light, then that would be. But the UV seems to be just as good a fix for me. I will get some wisteria and floating plants, but other than that, it is up to the UV. 

Your assessment of my plant use is correct.

The swords sustain themselves with the fert tabs in order to make the discus more comfortable in a bare bottom tank, as well as the lotus'. The wisteria will be for ammonia and extra nutrients as well as some floating plants. Anubias will be soley to make the whole thing look a little better.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

(and leaving the lights on for less hours/day?)


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Ya I will do the 2 3 hour periods. This will cut the photo period and still allow me to see the tank for more than a 6 hour block in the middle of the day. Is 6 enough for these plants?

Seems like this could end up being not so dependent on the UV after all. Yes?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Try it and see. Like mentioned before, wisteria (aka hygro) is a noxious weed. If you leave it floating, where it will be close to the light, I think it will probably be fine. If not, throw it away and try frogbit. Neither of these plants are expensive- check the forum.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Do you agree that if I cut lighting time, add some wisteria and floating plants, and do PWC, then it wont be so dependent on the UV?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Yup.

Unless there's something we're still missing (like the tank gets direct sunlight or something like that...)


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

No, I keep the blinds shut for this reason. What other than wisteria that is easily attainable works in the same manner?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

*STEM PLANTS
*Waterwheel Plant - Aldrovanda vesiculosa
Bacopa - Bacopa caroliniana
Moneywort - Bocapa monnieri
Hornwort - Ceratophylum demersum
Watersprite - Ceratopteris thalictroides
Anacharis - Egeria densa
American Waterweed- Elodea canadensis
Stargrass - Heteranthera zosterifolia
Brazilian Pennywort - Hydrocotyle leucocephala
Water Pennywort - Hydrocotyle ranunculoides
Ceylon Hygro - Hygrophila polysperma 'Ceylon'
Giant Hygro - Hygrophila corymbosa
Water Wisteria - Hygrophila difformis
Green Hygro - Hygrophila polysperma
Sunset Hygro - Hygrophila polysperma 'Rosanervig'
Dwarf Ambulia - Limnophila sessiliflora 
Red Ludwigia- Ludwigia repens
Parrots Feather - Myriophyllum aquaticum
Guppy Grass - Najas guadalupensis
Rotala Indica - Rotala indica
Rotala Rotundifolia - Rotala rotundifolia
Rotala Rotundifolia sp. Green - Rotala rotundifolia sp. 'Green'
Cabomba - Cabomba carolina

*FLOATERS*
Hornwort - Ceratophylum demersum
Watersprite - Ceratopteris thalictroides
Anacharis - Egeria densa
Brazilian Pennywort - Hydrocotyle leucocephala
Water Pennywort- Hydrocotyle ranunculoides
Duckweed - Lemna minor
Parrots Feather - Myriophyllum aquaticum
Red Root Floater - Phyllanthus fluitans 
Giant Slavinia - Salvinia molesta


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

There's a few on that list I prolly wouldn't try. 

Duckweed because it's obnoxious and you'll never ever get rid of it... ever.
Pennywort I'm not sure is a fast grower or not? May be- I've never kept it.

There's about 1/2 dozen I don't know what are...

If you keep an open-top tank, water hyacinth would do a killer job.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Ok, Ill def be able to get a hold of some wisteria and maybe a few other stems. Im hoping i can get a good flow with this UV that itll knock the poop around the bottom so I dont have to vacuum so much. I have to look into the floating plants as I have not seen too many readily available. Out of those stem plants, which do you KNOW will live with only a root tab in the pot and no other ferts?


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Can duckweed just appear? Before I took out the gravel, I had a few little plants popping up on the top of my water that look just like that.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

At this point in the game, I'd just get one stem like hygro and float it. Again, keep the priority on the discus or you will end up having problems. You'll get all kinds of advice on how to get the best results from your plants and will end up compromising the conditions for your discus.

Your duckweed, if that's what it is, probably came in on your other plants.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

If thats the case, Ill prolly just get wisteria because I have never seen Hygro at an LFS. I will pot it for the sake of not getting caught in my filter. I have had those grow fairly quickly before. So you think I should just get 1 quickly growing plant?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

wisteria and hygro are the same thing. Hygrophila is the genus name, wisteria the common name. As you can see from the previous list, there are alot of different varieties/species/subspecies.

I'd stick with just one plant and get plenty of it. Make life simple! LOL If you're buying from an LFS you will want the largest healthiest stems they have. The larger the plant the more ammonia it will absorb.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Ok good call. I was looking up the plant hygro lol. How many stems worth would you say to get?
I am going to stick with common wisteria. When I trim the tips off, I will let them float. That seems like it should work.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

A lot :hihi:


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Ok lol. that much should make the discus ,more comfortable too. They are doing REALLY well. When I walk by the tank they do the feed me dance all the time, and dont run unless you pretty much jump at the tank. The water is still green though lol. I did a water change last night. Should I add yeast Co2 when I get the Wisteria or just leave it simple?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Leave it simple. Time for all the rest of that after they grow out. If your CO2 were to become imbalanced/OD the tank, bye bye discus!


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## EricSilver (Feb 23, 2004)

This thread has taught me one very important thing: I will not be raising Discus any time soon.  (One full-time job is enough.)


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Eric - Ya I hear ya, Im still not sure why exactly I decided to start with them but I cant seem to stop now. They have soooo much more personality than other fish that its almost like a small group of dogs! LOL

Laura - thanks for all the help and putting up with my endless fountain of questions. I really do appreciate someone who shows a genuine interest in another's problems as you do. 

Eric thank you as well. I actually have a question regarding your amazon swords. Do you find that when first starting them, you feel like you prune more leaves than you should in order to get ones without holes?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

New- it's my pleasure- I'm glad you're really willing to do your homework and do the best you can by your fish- your conscientiousness now will definitey result in healthier, hardier fish!

Now you know why discus are so expensive... labor! I still don't think they're nearly the work that alot of SW fish are, but they definitely are more labor-intensive than most other FW fish, especially as juveniles


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## EricSilver (Feb 23, 2004)

New2plants said:


> Do you find that when first starting them, you feel like you prune more leaves than you should in order to get ones without holes?


When first starting them, I pruned all but the smallest and shortest paddle-shaped emmersed leaves so the plant’s energy would be directed to producing new, sword-shaped immersed leaves. 

What I love about Amazon swords is that they practically grow right before your eyes. Yesterday morning, when pruning some old stubble from previously cut leaves, I noticed a brand new leaf emerging in the center. Today, that leaf is three times bigger, almost completely unfurled, and by tomorrow night will be at least twice as big as it is now. 

The holes are only a problem when on the emmersed-growth leaves, and by pruning them, you are actually doing yourself a favor by accelerating the development of immersed growth.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Hey quick question, I am noticing recently that my ottos are attaching to my discus. They are awesome for algae so I dont want to remove them. Do you think that since there is none for them at the moment that I need to feed them algae chips to keep them off my discus?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Yes. Or zucchini slices. I've never heard of otos feeding on discus slime but this is what I'd be worried about happening. If you're feeding your discus mostly meat-based products, it could be the otos are starving. Zucchini, lettuce, etc would be great- just don't overdo it b/c again you'd be contributing to the N-problem.


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## EricSilver (Feb 23, 2004)

New2plants said:


> Hey quick question, I am noticing recently that my ottos are attaching to my discus. They are awesome for algae so I dont want to remove them. Do you think that since there is none for them at the moment that I need to feed them algae chips to keep them off my discus?


*Please* -- Remove the ottos immediately. 

It not only stresses the Discus to be harassed but also, at night when they can't see -- and the ottos are still active -- they will not be able to swim away. 

Once the ottos penetrate the Discus slime coat, and chew away a few scales, the Discus is finished. I lost my favorite calico/koi angel that way, and I will never again trust ottos around large-bodied fish. 

Now that they have developed a "taste" for the Discus, the ottos will not leave them alone. Don't gamble with your Discus. Lose the ottos.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Ok, they are in my other tank. Within 1 minute, I caught all five of them attaching to different discus. What kind of algae eater would be good for my setup? I would like siamese algae eaters but can not find a place that has them. Everyone has chinese algae eaters (way too aggressive) or flying foxes(dont eat algae).


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## crisrisl (Jan 16, 2007)

The most common algae eater kept with discus is the bushy/bristenose pleco. But...they're only gonna eat the algae on your glass I believe, not any other types that develop. I keep them in all of my discus tanks.


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## EricSilver (Feb 23, 2004)

New2plants said:


> Within 1 minute, I caught all five of them attaching to different discus.


Be sure to closely monitor the discus, just to be safe. When did you first notice the ottos doing that? I had one rogue otto (out of 4 total) that would harrass the angels, but for all five of yours to do that is extraordinary. 




New2plants said:


> What kind of algae eater would be good for my setup?


Snails. When you get your wisteria, you will have a few pond snail hitchikers, and in a short time you will have many. Between them and your UV sterilizer, you should have the algae under control.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

The discus seem fine. I caught random ones doing it at different times but the discus usually just ran them up against the drift wood and knocked them off pretty quick. 

I usually kill snails that come on plants. What kind of snail would take care of algae and not eat the plants?

If not a snail, what kind of algae eater fish? I would rather a fish if possible.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I think you'd be better off with a snail- less bioload, and you've pretty much exhausted the list of algae-eating fish that would be appropriate in a discus tank. Admittedly I am biased against SAE, but they are more likely to attack the discus than otos. If you don't want snails that reproduce, you could use nerite snails.

Or you could just use a magnet scraper on the front of the tank and leave the algae be in the rest of the tank... it's likely that any other form of algae growing on the glass would outcompete the algae in the water...


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## crisrisl (Jan 16, 2007)

bushy...nose...pleco?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

IMO plecostopoopamuses put out too much bioload in a tank that's trying to keep nitrItes at a minimum for juvie discus...

Great in a planted/adult discus tank though


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

The scraper is looking like the way to go! lol Im kinda tired of buying algae eaters that dont work. The bushy nose would be good but they do put out a lot of poop and have been known to eat holes in plant leaves. Thanks again for the help. I decided to put my plants in another tank with my light and do a blackout in my tank until the UV arrives. The green water has slowed down but I want to eliminate as much of it as possible before I receive the UV. I got the email saying it shipped this morning so I should be using it by monday. Any suggestions on my fish and doing the black out?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Discus love dim light. They'll be fine. Might just want the lights on for a bit to feed them, unless there's enough ambient light in the room for them to see.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Ok thanks a lot. Is cutting the green water before the UV a wise decision? Should I wrap a blanket around the tank to keep all light out, even that from through the blinds ? There is hardly any if any. Or is just leaving the PWC off good enough?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

6 one way 1/2 dozen the other... I wouldn't cut out the PWC, though- remember, you're prioritizing the discus, and they need those PWC... even if the ammonia is there... just change less water more frequently.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Im confused 6 one way 1/2 dozen the other????? Im not leaving the lights off forever, Im just going to black it out until next monday. Why do the discus need the PWC?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

To remove any uneaten food and keep down any growth-inhibiting hormones plus any other unmeasurable bio secretions that build up in closed systems. Pristine water as possible.

The cliche was in reference to you can try and combat algae now or wait till the UV gets in- the algae is really only a cosmetic issue, and is probably currently helping the discus by absorbing the excess ammonia.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Im confused again. The PWC means power compact, to me at least. How does that help to remove uneaten food? Wait a second, lol. Ugh PWC means part water changes. LOL sorry . I meant that I am taking the light off the tank till the Uv gets here in order to try and reduce the green. I am def going to do part water changes every couple of days. I got it now! lol I will start looking around for wisteria and get some when I find it. Any other suggestions?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Nope. Sounds good! Get some sleep. Headed 2 bed, myself. Nite


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## EricSilver (Feb 23, 2004)

New2plants said:


> Ok thanks a lot. Is cutting the green water before the UV a wise decision? Should I wrap a blanket around the tank to keep all light out, even that from through the blinds ? There is hardly any if any. Or is just leaving the PWC off good enough?


Did you see my post in this thread, #108, about using the gel diffusers over your lights?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Ok I asked around about that oto/discus slime eating issue- I know for sure I'd never heard of it, and since I'm planning on stocking otos in my discus tank I really wanted to know for sure! 

I talked to Gary McDonald, who breeds otos and wrote the article on otos in the Feb 2008 TFH. He said he's never heard of it nor have the owners of Westside Discus (he knows them pretty well and called them, too, to double-check); the consensus is that an oto would only do this in desperation if they weren't getting the nutrients they need in their diets. They're one of the most vegetarian fish out there- one of the few that will leave shrimp completely alone- so eating discus slime is definitely abnormal behavior.


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## EricSilver (Feb 23, 2004)

lauraleellbp said:


> Ok I asked around about that oto/discus slime eating issue- I know for sure I'd never heard of it, and since I'm planning on stocking otos in my discus tank I really wanted to know for sure!


My dead angel fish, and New's 5 ottos swarming his Discus, would empirically (OK, at least anecdotally) prove that it does occur. (In his case, it truly is abnormal since all five of his ottos were going after the Discus.)

Also, my ottos enjoyed eating bloodworms, so they are not as vegetarian as you were told. 

If you plan to add ottos, in all likelihood you will be OK. Just like if you get on a plane, you will likely arrive safely at your destination. But some ottos do indeed go rogue, and some planes do indeed crash, and because an expert has never witnessed either event, does not mean they don't occur.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'm not going to argue with anyone's experience- if it happened it happened- just ask if you were making sure the otos got their share of veggie matter in their diet when it happened to you?


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

I've had an Oto suck on one of my Angelfish. It definitely happens, and in my case I know there was plenty of veggie/algae for the Otos to eat. That same Oto was even eating the slime off of fellow Otos. I'm not really sure what happened to him, my tank is too much of a jungle to really know for sure, heh, but I haven't seen it happen since then either. I think most of the time it's just a mistake, large relatively flat fish... might as well be the same as the aquarium glass. I have read of several instances where the Otos seemed to prefer the slime coat over other food sources though, sort of like 'once you go slime, you never go back.'


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I've heard of it with SAE (one of the reasons I'm really not fond of them) but never otos- guess I'll chalk it up to something new every day!

Hopefully it's very much the exception rather than the rule, though...

LOL @ 'once you go slime, you never go back.' :eek5:


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## EricSilver (Feb 23, 2004)

lauraleellbp said:


> - just ask if you were making sure the otos got their share of veggie matter in their diet when it happened to you?


I made no special accommodations for them beyond what they scraped from the plants, glass and wood, and any veggie matter in the food flakes I occasionally fed the fish.

The tank fauna was mostly Amazon at that time: Neon, Rummy and Phantom Tertras; Cories; and the Angels, ottos, and a Betta. Their diet consisted mainly of frozen mosquito larvae, bloodworms, and dry flakes, and the ottos always appeared well fed. And, again, only one of them bothered the angel. Indeed, he went out of his way to do so, literally searching for and pursuing him. 

I intially thought he was confusing the angel for a plant, since from top fin to bottom fin the angel was almost 8" tall. (The ottos, by the way, were in the tank since the angel was the size of a quarter.)


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

New- any update?


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Sorry this week was midterms so I couldnt get on here. I took the light off after my last post and put it on my gfs tank with my plants. The green in my water went away but it is still a little tan bc of the new piece of driftwood I put in (Which came out after the color changed). The sterilizer came and is amazing. The water is perfect. I am going to put the plants back in soon but am not putting in driftwood until all the tannins are soaked out of it. I want to do a 100% water change soon to get rid of the discoloration from the wood that was in it before but haven't had time to do so yet. Any suggestions for the change other than make it the same temp and pH and don't wash the filter media? Every time in the past this worked fine and the fish were fine. I do not see why it would be any different . For the changes I set up a small tank for the fish with an air pump and old tank water, empty and refill the tank and let it run through the filter for a few hours. All my numbers are good and Nitrite and Ammonia have been at 0 and Nitrates seem to be decreasing as I get better at keeping up with the poop.


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## EricSilver (Feb 23, 2004)

New2plants said:


> The sterilizer came and is amazing. The water is perfect.


How much space does it take up in the tank? 

I did not see it in PetsMart, so I suppose I need to order it.


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## neilfishguy (Dec 16, 2007)

New2plants said:


> Sorry this week was midterms so I couldnt get on here. I took the light off after my last post and put it on my gfs tank with my plants. The green in my water went away but it is still a little tan bc of the new piece of driftwood I put in (Which came out after the color changed). The sterilizer came and is amazing. The water is perfect. I am going to put the plants back in soon but am not putting in driftwood until all the tannins are soaked out of it. I want to do a 100% water change soon to get rid of the discoloration from the wood that was in it before but haven't had time to do so yet. Any suggestions for the change other than make it the same temp and pH and don't wash the filter media? Every time in the past this worked fine and the fish were fine. I do not see why it would be any different . For the changes I set up a small tank for the fish with an air pump and old tank water, empty and refill the tank and let it run through the filter for a few hours. All my numbers are good and Nitrite and Ammonia have been at 0 and Nitrates seem to be decreasing as I get better at keeping up with the poop.


Dont do WC just because of tannins. They are good. But if you dont like then remove with carbon. With a 100 percent water change, your fish will be stressed, there will be a ph shift, a temp shift, and the tannins will come back. Do like 25 percents every other day and use carbon. Or better yet purigen. Your 100 percent change is not a good idea. Very stressfull. I would not be suprised if you lost fish. Now that you have good numbers take it easy! Your fish need a rest for gods sake!


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

EricSilver said:


> How much space does it take up in the tank?
> 
> I did not see it in PetsMart, so I suppose I need to order it.


It is not as big as I thought but it takes about a 12 inch by 5 inch spot in the back right corner. Nothing a good plant or driftwood can't cover. The current that comes out of the put is not strong at all. And yes, you have to order it, petsmart does not keep them in stock. Mine came in less than a week.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

Neilfishguy- The tannins wont come back for now because I removed the wood and am soaking it all the time until it stops leaching. I have carbon in there now but I think its old and not working very well. With the potted plants with root tabs, is carbon going to cause damage to the plants once I put them back in?

Plus purigen is VERY expensive. Ill go with carbon if it turns out ok.
I have done 100% several times in the past and not lost any fish. I wont do one if you guys feel it unnecessary. I will do a decent one tom. though since I fell behind with them during midterms.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

100% water changes are only stressful when the new water is significantly different from the old. 100% water changes, or multiple 100% water changes daily are the norm in many fish-rearing setups. Consistent parameters are key, though. Don't be surprised if you get another algae bloom b/c of the ammonia issue, but now that you have more plants and the UV it should clear up pretty quickly.

Carbon and/or purigen are a good idea. You do need to replace carbon periodically (some say as much as once a month, but that sounds a bit much to me...) for it to stay active.

Also, if you boil or pour boiling water over your driftwood before you start soaking it, that will really help jump-start the tannin removal process. 

Sounds like things are going well, New- good job! :thumbsup: 

Reminds me- I need to remember to change the water on my own driftwood today, I forgot yesterday...


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## Gezza (Mar 6, 2008)

Hi, this isn't really a response to your question, but reducing the light hours has helped the water in my tank to be less green, if you like, so that may help you.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

laurel- so in your experience, the carbon will not affect the plants at all?

gezza - I tried doing that and my plants started to die. Thats mainly why I got the UV so I can still use a decent light cycle and avoid the algae.


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## Gezza (Mar 6, 2008)

Oh, my plants probably didn't die as they have a fairly good supply of natural light from my big windows. Hope you get sorted


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

The main plants effected were my lotus'. They love A LOT of light. and once they get it you can't take it away.


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## New2plants (Feb 8, 2008)

So any responses to the carbon effecting the plants?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Goes back to your priorities- the fish or the plants.

AC is great for fish, but will absorb nutrients from the water that could otherwise have been used by the plants.

If you don't want to use AC, then go with purigen.


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