# Surface Agitation with CO2, how much?



## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

IMO, you want as much surface agitation as possible without splashing. So, yes, a really good ripple. You also need good flow throughout the tank to move oxygen depleted water to the surface and carry oxygenated water throughout the tank. You also might consider lowering your bubble count for a bit and watch your fish. Are they more active with less CO2, etc.?


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## Jafooli (Feb 9, 2013)

Cheers for the reply Jeff

I will definitely work on getting a good ripple across all the surface then, my current filter wont give me that effect unless I switch to top output as I have a Fluval U3 with 3 settings, top output, or middle spray bar or bottom output. 

I currently use the middle spray bar to give the tank and plants a nice flow in all areas, and it also provided the top with a nice motion and a small ripple at the surface. 

Maybe I should purchase a power head then, as this would allow me to lower my filter again, for better circulation in my tank and use the power head to ripple the surface, or the other way around, but I'm thinking that might be the best course of action. 

I have a 20 Gallon tank and am using 1bps, I'm not sure if that's to much but my drop checker is a nice green, and my old yeast mix use to go around 1bps but then slowly died, and I never had any problems...

When I had the air pump on for 2 days straight and no CO2, all fish acted as they are now, I could try again and post back the results, my only concern would be my rasbora espei are shoaling a lot more but no signs of gasping, and they are eating fine.

Also if I do get a power head and give my tank a large ripple effect, how will this effect my CO2? Surely it will drop, bit confused there. 

Thanks again.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Well, increasing surface agitation is going to degas some CO2, but you can compensate for that by increasing your bubble count.

Either way sounds good for increasing flow in your tank. Whatever suits you best. You don't need a whirlpool just enough to see plant leaves waving gently in the current.


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## Jafooli (Feb 9, 2013)

Thanks Jeff,

The thing is my filter is waving the plants and I do have a current on the top of my tank just not a lot, I did have hardly none at one point and fish was fine, so maybe pressurized co2 is more concentrated? 

What type of power head do you think would work on a 20 Gallon tank, does 800lph sound to powerful? 

Thanks.


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## inthepacific (Oct 21, 2012)

how long was the ram in your tank for? it didn't sound like it was a problem with co2 if you added that much oxygen to your tank. it sounded like your fish was stressed out or something. I know when fish stores get new fish, sometimes they do that, where they breathe and look like they're gasping or hyperventilating. it's just because they're a little sensitive or stressed out. i know on ADA tanks, they run co2 and there is little to no surface agitation, though they do recommend raising your pipes at night to aerate the tank. so yes i think you do eventually need to agitate the surface at some point, but i dont think it should have a constant ripple through the day while your running co2 or else you're probably loosing a lot of co2


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## Jafooli (Feb 9, 2013)

Hey inthepacific

I had the ram for around 5 months, and she was fine until I changed to pressurized CO2 and in the same week made a new Macro and Micro batch for my EI dosing.

My thought process was the same as what you mention about ADA tanks, and all my fish were fine, I knew at night they would need oxygen so I run my air pump all night, and everything was fine for months. 

I'm not sure if pressurized is more concentrated? then again I cant be sure CO2 is the problem here. I guess I can only purchase a cheap power head and see how that goes, if no improvement then I can safely say its not the CO2, but then what would the problem be =\

I have cleaned my tank thoroughly, I have trimmed my plants quite a bit... so it cant be organic matter... and if its a parasite why are the only symptom's gasping, + my fish are still eating and some hours in the day there back to normal and acting normal. I also am using a Fire Extinguisher as my co2 source but I've never read anyone having contamination problems. 

It seems like it might be a tough problem to solve.


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## inthepacific (Oct 21, 2012)

well the only thing that was changed was the fertilizers, maybe the ram was sensitive to something in there? did you test the ph, gh and kh? it might tell you something. but that sucks that you lost it. rams are so cool.


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## Jafooli (Feb 9, 2013)

I did measure the fertilizers the same as I have done before, and I don't have any test kits for GH & KH but I've never had problems with my pond, aquarium, but now my gf keeps shrimp in the same house in her EBI I do want to get a kit.

My PH from tap is 8 and in the tank 7.4 thanks to CO2, but at night I presume it goes back to 8 once CO2 is off. 

Yesterday I paid close attention to my tank to try and find more symptoms and found my Rasbora Espei actually mating which I've never seen before, the female was swimming upside down under my plants with a male near her, then they would come of the plants and all the males would spar with each other, so maybe this is whats been happening the last few days and I was thinking they were hiding.... I also checked youtube for Rasbora Espei and it seems they always look like there gasping, I've kept the fish for over a year and never seen them shoal as much or open there mouths as much etc so maybe this is why I got worried, its strange how this is happening all of a sudden, and in the fish section my Ram had her Ovipositor showing, which I was told she is ready to mate. 

So it seems all my fish have suddenly hit breeding mode :S my tank seemed much better yesterday so will keep an eye on the other fish as there could still be a problem. I am also going to order a power head for ease of mind and hopefully improve flow and surface agitation. 

Thanks for your help and I will keep posted if the problem is still there, as there has to be a reason my ram died =\


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

fair warning that you'll need to find an adequate powerhead to increase the circulation of water at the mid tank level. I've had to test a few models to find the right fit as some were ineffective while others proved overly powerful. other models as well can be more gentle while some produce a rather pointed and narrow current so these are factors for consideration.

I had solely used a spray bar in my tank but often found detris or debris along the bottom. now with the power heads, the debris collection is no longer an issue and the plants have all spruced up quite a bit in a matter of days. Hope this method benefits your tank as well.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

the difference in surface agition will determine co2 loss
if the outlet of ur spray bar has co2 comming out ot if, u will lose approximately 1/6th of the co2 ur injecting
if its from a powerhead the is just circulating water u will only lose but 1/14th of the co2 ur injecting
keep in mind plants only use 1/5th of the co2 ur injecting anyways. there will always be waste for our systems


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## Jafooli (Feb 9, 2013)

Cheers for the replies

I plan to order a cheap 800lph powerhead of ebay for around £8, he has sold over 200 so I thought it may be worth a try and the product has good feedback, but you get what you pay for so I presume it wont be nothing amazing. 

I only need it for surface agitation so it shouldn't be to much of a problem, but thanks for the tips acitydweller I will see how this cheap one goes, as then I can lower my filter a few inches again and this seems to give sufficient flow to my plants and tank. 

Cheers again for all the help and great info


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## DaveFish (Oct 7, 2011)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> the difference in surface agition will determine co2 loss
> if the outlet of ur spray bar has co2 comming out ot if, u will lose approximately 1/6th of the co2 ur injecting
> if its from a powerhead the is just circulating water u will only lose but 1/14th of the co2 ur injecting
> keep in mind plants only use 1/5th of the co2 ur injecting anyways. there will always be waste for our systems


 Just curious how you get those numbers? What kind of tests need to be done to determine...? KH/titration etc...??


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

DaveFish said:


> Just curious how you get those numbers? What kind of tests need to be done to determine...? KH/titration etc...??


an accurate ph meter that reads hundreths works just fine.. each tank will be different due to the amount of surface area/vs volume of tank.. but i found them to be quiet close on both of my tanks


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## theericafish (Apr 27, 2012)

Gasping can be due to other things other than oxygen deficiency.

Could have possibly been a parasite infection, or the rams gills got damaged in some other way. I see you thought this could be a possibility also.

Just because fish are eating does not mean they are not being the host of a parasite or are having fungal or bacterial growth on or inside them. I've had fish that developed bacterial infections and are acting almost completely normal until the infection takes over their body and they eventually die because of it(even after the use of medicines).

Sometimes a change in water conditions is all it takes for the fishes immune system to lessen enough for disease to attack. Sometimes fish seem to contract the disease/infections almost out of nowhere.

That being said, some fish are particularly more sensitive to co2 than others it seems and it is possible that the ram was having issues with the co2. I do think that after an airstone was added and the co2 was removed that the ram should have recovered because its gills should not have been damaged, but simply deprived of the oxygen it needed to breathe.


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## Jafooli (Feb 9, 2013)

Thanks everyone for your answers, and I agree theericafish about the ram should of recovered with the amount of oxygen I added but who knows, I just hope it was something not contagious. It's sad I could not save her =\ 

Its been a few days now and I can say all fish look fine, I only have Rasbora Espei's, Danio margaritatus, Khuli Loaches and 3 Oto's. 

My tank still looks rather empty as all the Espei are hiding, the Danio margaritatus are always chasing each other and seem very playful fish but mine are very small so they don't catch your eye, oto's are around here and there and loaches come out now and then, normally my Rasbora Espei don't shoal so when you walk in the room you see all 6 swimming around, but lately that's not the case... I checked my tank earlier I couldn't even see one, so I had a closer look and they was all at the back corner under my plants mating, they been doing this for days now... I've had them a long time and have seen the males spar constantly but never seen then acting like this, I guess my water quality must be good if there breeding, so maybe i'll have babies soon who knows. 

I also have ordered my power head this morning, so that will be a good addition to my tank, and hopefully I can now enjoy my tank again and not be stressed about this unknown problem... I will be sure to come back here if anything does change.. I also plan on buying some Rummy Nose Tetra's now I've lost my Ram and a few weeks ago gave away my Molly. I hope they will be a good addition to my tank, but want to make sure everything is right first so will give it a week, and I've read there prone to ich, so one step at a time. 

Thanks again.


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## theericafish (Apr 27, 2012)

Hope everything works out!

Sadly all our fish will go eventually, just part of the hobby/life.

Sometimes it opens the door for something new


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