# Neon tetras have really bad fin rot plz help.



## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Pic of tank? Water parameters in tank.. PH, GH, KH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrates, phosphates? Change water source, prep routine and parameters?

So basically they lived through your un-cycled tank 3-4mo ago but in about last month it just went to crap?

But sadly without testing and tank parameters its almost impossible to know whats going on.


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## stevewb (Nov 10, 2018)

In my early days I was subjecting my fishes to over feeding and was running into fin rot too often. I lowered my food and moved to 2x WC a week with gravel vac to get the unused food and waste off the substrate. Is there a lot of shmoo onthe substrate?


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

DaveKS said:


> Pic of tank? Water parameters in tank.. PH, GH, KH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrates, phosphates? Change water source, prep routine and parameters?
> 
> So basically they lived through your un-cycled tank 3-4mo ago but in about last month it just went to crap?
> 
> But sadly without testing and tank parameters its almost impossible to know whats going on.


PH is 7.6. Ammonia is 0. no2 is 0. no3 is 5. I don't test phosphates. I am using the same water source. Nothing changed. I added anubias after they already had fin rot. Yes they lived through the uncycled tank and then a month ago they got fin rot.



stevewb said:


> In my early days I was subjecting my fishes to over feeding and was running into fin rot too often. I lowered my food and moved to 2x WC a week with gravel vac to get the unused food and waste off the substrate. Is there a lot of shmoo onthe substrate?


I will do 2 WC a week as you said, and yes there is a little waste on the substrate. I feed them a small amount 3 times a day. I use an auto feeder.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Well fin rot is sign of declining water quality and also can be a sign of stress you, by your actions are inducing upon your fish such as inappropriate prepping of change water in which case every time your changing water your actually hurting your fish not helping them.

Anyway what’s the PH, GH and KH in tank and of change water? 

And if your seeing waste food on top gravel I can probably safely assume lower levels of gravel are probably packed with rotting detritus as well. Need full tank pics showing filter placement as well as side shot showing substrate build up of detritus down there.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

the ph is 7.6 the gh and kh are both 3. We are on a well. I am prepping water with Tetra slime coat stuff and API bacteria supplements. I will take some pics soon.

Bump: The gravel seems fine to me. IDK whats going on. I just want my fish to thrive


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

A few thoughts. First, I'd lose the auto feeder. These fish can be fed once or twice daily in an amount they can eat in about 30 seconds. If flake food is hitting the gravel, you generally put too much in. Going forward, it is best to do a fishless cycle. I would expect any that survived to be fine by now but you may have just gotten a buggy batch of neons. It certainly happens. 





aquanerd13 said:


> I bought them from petco, but they seemed healthy(I didn't know 100% what to look for at the time) and they did fine. I increased the temperature to ~80 degrees several weeks ago. I can buy salt and use melafix and have 80 degree water if necessary.


 I would not use salt or Melafix for what you are describing. I'm skeptical that Melafix or Pimafix have ever cured any disease for any fish. I have tried them many times and won't even put them on my store shelves anymore. Erythromycin in a QT tank would be my leaning without being able to see the fish. 





aquanerd13 said:


> If they die I will probably sell all my stuff and give up on the hobby


That would be a shame for something you seem so enthusiastic about. But if fish deaths are going to turn you off to fish-keeping, you aren't long for the hobby sad to say. It's an inevitable facet that comes along with all of the reward and good times. You are not only going to have normal losses; but disease, equipment failures, stuck heaters, aggression, jumping, random toxins, stray electrical current, and so many other things can (and if you do it long enough -will) happen. I have lost entire tanks with 1000's of dollars worth of corals and clams. I have wanted to cry. I have gotten out of saltwater altogether. But the ease and simplicity of lightly stocked planted tanks keeps me around. I hope you will and wish your tank inhabitants the best.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

I will just keep my water at 80 degrees and see how it goes I guess. Should I dose this?

https://www.amazon.com/Kordon-Rid-I...thromycin&qid=1564088116&s=home-garden&sr=1-3

Bump: I will lose the auto feeder to.

Bump: I will just tough it out and see how many survive I guess.

Bump: It might just be the fact that I got them from a non-reputable source.(Petco. ugh.) All future fish are coming from Wet spot for me.

Bump: Thank you all for your advice.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Do not use the ich medication for fin rot. The medication is tough on fish, but more importantly you won't get results treating a bacterial infection with an anti-parasitic. I'm not sure a tank temperature of 80 is going to affect things one way or another.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

ok. I heard increasing the temp is good to get rid of ich and other things so I thought I would try it.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

I’d quit doing such overly aggressive water water changes, 2 gal per week should be fine, run some carbon for couple days to clean out all those meds and add a small bag peat/almond leaves after that in filter, just enough to give water a slight, slight tea color. 

Also are you prepping your change water properly by letting it stand overnight in bucket to equalize to atmospheric CO2 before doing water changes?

My neon and embers came from Petco and they look fine. I haven’t changed water in 2mo.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

aquanerd13 said:


> I will just keep my water at 80 degrees and see how it goes I guess. Should I dose this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes, use that. The malachite green and metheleyne blue will work great on fin rot. It’s not too harsh at all. This is something I use routinely on sensitive fish when needed. 
Your water changes are fine. Don’t let anyone tell you differently. Turn down heat. The higher the heat the quicker bacteria spreads. Neons should be at around 74-75 degrees. 


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> Yes, use that. The malachite green and metheleyne blue will work great on fin rot. Both are antibacterials. It’s not too harsh at all. This is something I use routinely on sensitive fish when needed.
> Your water changes are fine. Don’t let anyone tell you differently. Turn down heat. The higher the heat the quicker bacteria spreads. Neons should be at around 74-75 degrees.
> 
> If you fish begin to decline: not eating, hiding, no longer schooling, this indicates an internal bacterial infection- use Kanamycin. Active ingredient in Kanaplex.
> ...







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## ntdsc (Jul 24, 2019)

I'm not an expert but well water often has algae in it, and it's perhaps too clear and not enough organic matter like leaves, etc. for the natural amount of algae in well water. Personally, I'm going towards making adobe bricks, sun-dried, broken up, and using just that with no gravel cover, and I add dried leaves to keep algae down, as it's by the window and the dried leaves seem to keep the algae down.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Thank you so much Amy! @DaveKS, I forgot about the letting it sit overnight thing. I will start doing that.


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## grizzly_a (Sep 9, 2014)

aquanerd13 said:


> I have a 11 neon tetras in a 10 gallon tank...If they die I will probably sell all my stuff and give up on the hobby


First: Stop overreacting. 



aquanerd13 said:


> I will just keep my water at 80 degrees and see how it goes I guess. Should I dose this?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Kordon-Rid-I...thromycin&qid=1564088116&s=home-garden&sr=1-3
> 
> ...


Great recommendations have been provided. I don't see the fin rot you're talking about with the photos you provided yesterday. Can you get a photo of the fish that look like sharks?

Lower the temp, treat the tank as recommended and stop feeding 3x daily. One time daily is plenty until you get a handle on what's going on. They don't need 3 square meals (neither do humans).

Petco is just a retailer, reputable vs. non-reputable is an opinion and varies by location and the skill set of the employee managing caring for the tanks. Some people are fish snobs and only buy stock from breeders or go collect their own from the wild. They would never consider Petco/Petsmart as a reputable source. Others get them from retailers or local fish stores, online, etc. You may well have the same issue with WetSpot fish, or a LFS, even a breeder. As you've already heard, everyone has fish that die for various reasons.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

I am only feeding them a tiny amount every moring now I just lowered the temp. I will get more pics soon. Our petco and petsmart are pretty bad. khuli loaches and frogs stuck in the filters, lots of dead fish, huge plecos in tiny tanks, etc.


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## CarissaT (Jul 1, 2019)

Usually it's better to focus on keeping the water healthy for the fish rather than using medicines or temp changes to treat a minor issue. I would say that the issue was probably the water quality degrading due to overfeeding (I've had my own run in's with auto feeders as well... on a small tank they can mess up things really quickly if they aren't running perfectly). That affects the immune system of the fish and leads to some random disease breakout or other apparent evidence the fish aren't healthy. The solution is first fix the problem (which you've done/lowered feeding), do a water change with a good gravel vac to rectify the water quality issue, then keep the fish in stable clean water and their immune systems will likely bounce back. Adding medications can increase stress on the fish and lower their immune system further, and also cause problems with the cycle or other water quality issues. Not that it's always bad, but definitely not a first resort especially adding meds to the main tank. One very true quote I've heard is, you're not keeping fish, you're keeping water! Sounds like you are doing good so far, every issue you run into gives you another bit of experience and helps you out later on! Nobody likes setbacks, but the challenges make success even more enjoyable when it comes!


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

I have eliminated overfeeding, I will do another 50% water change on Saturday. I usually do them on wednsdays so I will do one then to. (I always gravel vac during changes.) The water is clean, I think I am just overfeeding them. The parameters are good. Here are some pics. They are not very good though. The focus is all wonky.

Bump: It is super hard to see the fin rot.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

aquanerd13 said:


> I have eliminated overfeeding, I will do another 50% water change on Saturday. I usually do them on wednsdays so I will do one then to. (I always gravel vac during changes.) The water is clean, I think I am just overfeeding them. The parameters are good. Here are some pics. They are not very good though. The focus is all wonky.
> 
> Bump: It is super hard to see the fin rot.




It seems like no one is listening doesn’t it? They are giving you advice on solutions to general husbandry/ water/ feeding problems but not listening to the specifics of what you have attempted to communicate. 
Before attempting to help others you need to listen as much as you speak. 

OP information:
1. Ongoing fin rot for over a month. Most likely secondary bacterial infection from ammonia exposure. 
2. Changes 50% of water weekly. ( Some say that his water changes are excessive and stressing fish, others that water quality is his problem. 
3. Neither are correct. 50% water changes weekly is perfect for bioload of this aquarium- neither excessive or inadequate. 
4 . Feeds 3x daily; but says no excessive food on substrate. States he doesn’t over- feed; but, you say he is. He then agrees with you. Okay. Just because someone feeds 3 x daily doesn’t mean it’s “excessive “. Many fish, especially small juveniles, need several small feedings daily. 
5. Vacuums substrate routinely. - so, why are we still harping on that despite his insistence? 
6. States has been fighting fin rot and has been using antibacterial methods to combat it- Melafix and salt to no effect. 
7 . Does not age water. Not everyone needs to age water; but, yeah, do
test on Ph consistency from tap and degassed 24 hours later. If within .4 ppm- fine to go directly from tap to tank. Look at your water report- all you need to know about your water is in it. I don’t age my water and my Discus and Altum angels are fine. 

Bottom line. Your water changes are adequate, substrate cleanings consistent and not accumulating food and debris because properly maintenances, not overfeeding ( despite 3 small feedings daily) . 

Give the fish some meds! Make them better and stop listening to the ongoing grab- bag of generalizations offered up as solutions to your problem. 






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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Thank you Amy.(I actually have not used salt yet). I will buy some Kordan Malachite on amazon and dose that.

Bump: I try to feed my fish very small meals 3 times a day, because in the wild they get very small amounts of food semi-frequently, not a large amount once a day.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

aquanerd13 said:


> Thank you Amy.(I actually have not used salt yet). I will buy some Kordan Malachite on amazon and dose that.
> 
> Bump: I try to feed my fish very small meals 3 times a day, because in the wild they get very small amounts of food semi-frequently, not a large amount once a day.




Get Paraguard if can, it has malachite green, metheleyne blue, and acriflavine which is good for bacteria and fungus. 


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

ok. Thank you so much.


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## CarissaT (Jul 1, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> It seems like no one is listening doesn’t it? They are giving you advice on solutions to general husbandry/ water/ feeding problems but not listening to the specifics of what you have attempted to communicate.
> Before attempting to help others you need to listen as much as you speak.
> 
> OP information:
> ...




3x a day not excessive feeding necessarily. But using auto feeder is a huge red flag. Fin rot doesn’t come out of nowhere, and I know with experience using auto feeders even on larger tanks that things can go bad fast if food sticks together and doesn’t come out....then comes out in a massive dose. If you’re not there to see it, you don’t know it’s happening. Something went wrong somewhere for the fin rot to have set in, fixing that is more important than putting in medication. Which appears the OP has. To me it’s better to give things a chance to be rectified after the possible problem is fixed than jumping on adding meds right away, unless things are extreme. And maybe they are, it’s difficult to tell from the pics. 


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

CarissaT said:


> 3x a day not excessive feeding necessarily. But using auto feeder is a huge red flag. Fin rot doesn’t come out of nowhere, and I know with experience using auto feeders even on larger tanks that things can go bad fast if food sticks together and doesn’t come out....then comes out in a massive dose. If you’re not there to see it, you don’t know it’s happening. Something went wrong somewhere for the fin rot to have set in, fixing that is more important than putting in medication. Which appears the OP has. To me it’s better to give things a chance to be rectified after the possible problem is fixed than jumping on adding meds right away, unless things are extreme. And maybe they are, it’s difficult to tell from the pics.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




The underlying cause has been established, it was in the first post—- ammonia exposure- weakening of immune system- secondary bacterial infection that hasn’t responded to clean water and proper husbandry. 

You need to read very carefully through the thread— you are missing a lot of pertinent information and making assumptions that are not warranted about OP’s feeding with a feeder. 

This issue has been ongoing ( for 1 month) and no one is “ jumping to medications” without proper analysis of what is needed. 
Before you offer advice, please read through the posts carefully so you are not giving advice that is not specific to the issue at hand. You are not helping. 



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## CarissaT (Jul 1, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> The underlying cause has been established, it was in the first post—- ammonia exposure- weakening of immune system- secondary bacterial infection that hasn’t responded to clean water and proper husbandry.
> 
> You need to read very carefully through the thread— you are missing a lot of pertinent information and making assumptions that are not warranted about OP’s feeding with a feeder.
> 
> ...




Sorry, I must have misunderstood. I thought the ammonia exposure was months ago during the cycle which started in February, but the fin rot started only a month ago, not during the ammonia exposure. And that the auto feeder was being used up until just recently. My mistake I must have misread it. 


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Yes. They survived the cycle in February, got fin rot ~1 month ago, and I stopped using the feeder this morning.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

aquanerd13 said:


> Yes. They survived the cycle in February, got fin rot ~1 month ago, and I stopped using the feeder this morning.




Were you over- feeding?


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

The auto feeders like that can be tricky to set up, best to set it, set to 1 feeding a day, then place over a Tupperware tub and monitor every day over a few days to see results. You want it to lightly feed your fish once a day. Err on side of caution so it may slightly under feed at times but never overfeed and you can safely use them. 

Do any extra feeding beyond that by hand when you want/have time with say a extra treat of baby brine few times a week for little neons.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Thank you. will do. I don't know how to cancel the feeding times on my feeder though. I have it off for now. I have a zacro feeder.

Bump: I was probably overfeeding.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Move your neons to a tank that looks like this, slowly acclimate them over a hr+ time to new water conditions and I guarantee within a week there will no trace of fin rot, no meds or water changes needed and they will act and look healthier than they ever have.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

DaveKS said:


> Move your neons to a tank that looks like this, slowly acclimate them over a hr+ time to new water conditions and I guarantee within a week there will no trace of fin rot, no meds or water changes needed and they will act and look healthier than they ever have.




“No water changes needed”
~ This advice is really terrible and I hope that the OP and those that may be drawn to read this thread in the future will be aware of this. Like I said earlier, if your water report checks out, and most will, and Ph is within .04 degrees of hardness within 24 hours , there is no need to drip, age, slowly adjust your fish to water. Most of these ideas have come from the “ low maintenance fish-keeping crowd” who really don’t want to put the time and care into keeping fish healthy- so they stretch out water changes and claim that adding tannins is a substitute for water changes, meds, even food. It’s fine for them, what’s dangerous is when they get on forums like this and start to spread their misguided information to new aquarists. 

I am all for tannins for fish that naturally come from this environment , but it is not a “ cure all for a whole species of fish”. This generalization is indicative of a lack of study and understanding of particular species and a desire to simplify the variables to come to a “ quick” understanding. But, I hope people have enough common sense to see this. 



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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

So I will just dose Seachem ParaGaurd for now and see how it turns out?

Bump: So I will just dose Seachem ParaGaurd for now and see how it turns out?


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## united natures (May 15, 2019)

Whoa so many responses lol. Make sure your water is the same temperature when doing water changes. If your tank is 80 degrees then I doubt your water reservoir is 80 degrees unless you have another heater in your reservoir.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

My tank is now 75 degrees, and we have a good water heater system. I use me moms meat thermometer to make sure it is within a couple degrees of the tank temp.


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## united natures (May 15, 2019)

aquanerd13 said:


> My tank is now 75 degrees, and we have a good water heater system. I use me moms meat thermometer to make sure it is within a couple degrees of the tank temp.


Just to note, a couple degrees is a big difference for fish. Good luck though, hope your neons make a full recovery!


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Thank you! I hope they recover to.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Well I started dosing paragaurd several days ago. I am pretty sure the neon tetras are getting better.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

aquanerd13 said:


> Well I started dosing paragaurd several days ago. I am pretty sure the neon tetras are getting better.


 Excellent to hear!


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Thank you! I think the meds may be stressing them out though. I did a 50% WC today. They were all hiding in the corner under a large fake plant when I approached the tank After the WC they were better though.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

aquanerd13 said:


> Thank you! I think the meds may be stressing them out though. I did a 50% WC today. They were all hiding in the corner under a large fake plant when I approached the tank After the WC they were better though.


 As long as you follow directions on bottle there is nothing in active ingredients that would "stress them out."
Make sure that you are doing water parameter testing in the aquarium while treating to see that all is copacetic and that they have plenty of supplemental aeration- air stone.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Ok sounds good.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Well Ii am pretty sure that they are getting better. There is a new problem though. The biggest neon tetra is starting to lose color on the red stripe. It is fading and looks blotchy. What could this be?


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## united natures (May 15, 2019)

Maybe the beginnings of neon tetra disease?


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

I don't know. Hopefully not. Later today after the light has been on for a while I will check again. I checked in the morning so maybe his pigments were just starting to come back. If this is non tetra disease, what should I do? leave the other fish in there to die? Euthanize the infected fish? Moving the others to the 75 gallon tank would leave him by himself and he would stress out more and be vulnerable for bacterial/fungal infections. It kind of looks like stripes. He has a patch of less red color, then full red color, then less, then more.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Neon tetra disease is a cluster of symptoms with fading of color being one of those symptoms. This symptom isolated from others means nothing. 
Some other behaviors to look for:
Does the fish isolate himself from group?
Does it swim as if lethargic or weak?
Is it eating?


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Wierd. I have several of those symptoms but all in different fish. I have ~2 fish that hide a lot behing a large rock I have. They stay somewhat close to the school though. Maybe this is normal, because they don't school tightly. That fish in particular is the only one with fading colors. I have experienced similiar things in other fish in the past though. None are lethargic or weak. They all eat. I will check this when I feed them though. I will do that right now.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Well I just fed them and they attacked the food like little piranhas.(They are in the same family after all!) Every single one of them ate. I counted them. All 11 were there and not a single one had blotchy colors! I think the blotchy colors were because I had just turned the light on and they pigment hadn't finished doing its thing yet so only parts of the red stripe were really bright.


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## united natures (May 15, 2019)

aquanerd13 said:


> Well I just fed them and they attacked the food like little piranhas.(They are in the same family after all!) Every single one of them ate. I counted them. All 11 were there and not a single one had blotchy colors! I think the blotchy colors were because I had just turned the light on and they pigment hadn't finished doing its thing yet so only parts of the red stripe were really bright.


Ok lol good to know. Yeah they lose a lot of their color when they sleep


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

aquanerd13 said:


> Well I just fed them and they attacked the food like little piranhas.(They are in the same family after all!) Every single one of them ate. I counted them. All 11 were there and not a single one had blotchy colors! I think the blotchy colors were because I had just turned the light on and they pigment hadn't finished doing its thing yet so only parts of the red stripe were really bright.


Good. Im glad you tested that out.
I have seen several times it being recommended that if you see any fading at all in a neon tetra to assume NTD and euthanize- that is so ridiculous. If you are that hysterical about this disease - better to go with another fish.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Especially because the colors fade at night.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

The neon with the worst fin rot is having difficulty swimming now. He is getting around but he is moving weirdly now. He no longer has the lower lobe of his caudal fin. Several others are close behind in fin rot severity. I don't expect him to live more than another 2 weeks. By then the infection should have reached his body. What could be causing this?


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## united natures (May 15, 2019)

Honestly I think 10 gal is way too small for neon tetras. Neons have a tendency to chase away sick members and distance them from the rest. 10 gal is too small for that to happen which is why you'll end up seeing high infection rates


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

aquanerd13 said:


> The neon with the worst fin rot is having difficulty swimming now. He is getting around but he is moving weirdly now. He no longer has the lower lobe of his caudal fin. Several others are close behind in fin rot severity. I don't expect him to live more than another 2 weeks. By then the infection should have reached his body. What could be causing this?


 I would treat for columnaris. 

Use nitrofurazone ( active ingredient in Furan 2) and kanamycin ( active ingredient in Seachem Kanaplex). 

Or, if these meds unavailable to you, let me know and I can give alternatives.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

So I need to use both meds? Or just one?


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

united natures said:


> Honestly I think 10 gal is way too small for neon tetras. Neons have a tendency to chase away sick members and distance them from the rest. 10 gal is too small for that to happen which is why you'll end up seeing high infection rates


The sickest ones have been not schooling and hiding in the caves. Should I move them to the 75 when it is done cycling?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

aquanerd13 said:


> So I need to use both meds? Or just one?


 Columnaris best responds to the use of these two drugs together. The nitrofurazone for the external symptoms, the kanamycin for internal symptoms. 



If you only have access to one, use the kanamycin. But, realize that using the drugs in combination are much more effective.

Bump:


aquanerd13 said:


> The sickest ones have been not schooling and hiding in the caves. Should I move them to the 75 when it is done cycling?



Have you been testing the water parameters in the 10 gallon for ammonia, nitrite, nitrates? Or is this a cycled tank? 

How often have you been doing water changes and of what volume? 



Leave the neons in 10 gallon to treat- do not put in the 75 gallon until healthy. 

But, need to do at least a 25% water change before each dose of medication to allow the medication to be more effective. Organics in the water column offsets the effectiveness of medications- water changes before dosing takes care of this problem.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

So 25% water changes every day? The 75 just started cycle. I am 2 days in. I am testing the 10 for those things. Nitrates are a 5. Ammonia and nitrites are 0.

Bump: I am doing a 50% WC every week on the 10.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

aquanerd13 said:


> So 25% water changes every day? The 75 just started cycle. I am 2 days in. I am testing the 10 for those things. Nitrates are a 5. Ammonia and nitrites are 0.
> 
> Bump: I am doing a 50% WC every week on the 10.


 Depending on what the instructions are of the medication that you decide to use (I am assuming you are treating in the 10 gallon) while treating I would recommend a 25% water change before each dose of medication. 

If this is not possible, do it as often as you can before administering each dose of medication.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

I will use those 2 meds you said to. Should I use paragaurd to?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

No, the Paraguard is not working- stop using.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Ok I will thank you. I also haven't been super consistent on my dosing. I dose every day for a week and then forget a few days, then dose for a few days, then forget, then leave for a week, then keep dosing etc.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Well people on a separate thread I forgot I created have been telling me that I have been improperly treating my water. Any ideas on how to properly treat? How do you treat water for your discus Amy? Unless I am mistaken, disus are very delicate fish that require perfect water. Neon tetras are much less picky, so if I do it the way you do, the neons should be extremely happy.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

aquanerd13 said:


> Well people on a separate thread I forgot I created have been telling me that I have been improperly treating my water. Any ideas on how to properly treat? How do you treat water for your discus Amy? Unless I am mistaken, disus are very delicate fish that require perfect water. Neon tetras are much less picky, so if I do it the way you do, the neons should be extremely happy.


 What are their ideas for "properly treating water"? I didn't know there was a one size fits all way to "properly treat water". I thought it depended on the species of fish and the particular conditions of the water that came out of each persons tap. For instance, some people dont need to use a dechlorinator because do not have chlorine/chlorimine or heavy metals in tap- many others ( most) do. Depends on context.

My discus, wild altums, as well as many other very sensitive fish get dechlorinated (Prime) water straight from the tap. No issues.


Now, if they are talking about "aging" your water before adding to aquarium- that is not needed in all cases- but some. It depends on what the difference is between the pH from tap and the pH degassed. If within .4 ppm from tap and degassed within 24 hour period- your good. 



Do a test- take a small container of water from tap and test ph. Then, let it set out for 24 hours with airstone going in water and test again. What is the difference? Within .4? Your good. If higher difference- aging will help. 



The other thing want to think about when filling directly from tap is micro-bubbles, which can be harmful to fish. I stuff my python hose with filter floss or sponge material so the micro-air bubbles collect in hose, are released as a larger bubble into water column and then burst at top of water.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Actually, sometimes when I put the new water in after WCs i get micro bubbles. I have yet to be informed on how to 'poperly' treat water. @DaveKS told me that the problem is improper water treatment. Thank you so much for the help. I will do the test. I will let you know the results tomorrow.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

aquanerd13 said:


> Actually, sometimes when I put the new water in after WCs i get micro bubbles. I have yet to be informed on how to 'poperly' treat water. @*DaveKS* told me that the problem is improper water treatment. Thank you so much for the help. I will do the test. I will let you know the results tomorrow.


 There is no one way to "properly treat water". 

Everything has context.


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## united natures (May 15, 2019)

Saw in your other thread that you are using well water?

Have you checked the water temperature during water changes? For example, even if I leave a bucket of water on the floor, it will be noticeably colder than tank water that is sitting on a stand. At 50% water change in 10 gal, the temperature difference could shock the tetras. 

I know you are frustrated about your water params, not trying to hate on anything just trying to help


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I can tell temperature by hand now because of decades of experience. You just get the knack for it in time.
But, in the beginning- you need some help. If possible, I would get a temperature pen/probe that can stick in tap water to see if the temperature is within 2-3 degrees of water in tank. Changes this slight, within 2-3 degrees, are completely harmless to even very sensitive species and mimics flow of new/cooler waters into existing warmer waters.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Ok thank you. I will do that.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Can we merge these two threads? Lots of people are trying to help, but two separate conversations are going on.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Yes I will do that.

Bump: I put a link on the other thread to this one and asked for new posts to be here.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Thank you. If no one minds, will move my daily rant on QT tanks here then. 


Blue Ridge Reef said:


> There is a very good chance that you bought compromised fish and there was nothing wrong on your end other than the stress of being bagged and moved to a new environment. I know I harp on about quarantine tanks, but I can't stress enough how much better luck I've had using a glass bottom QT than treating displays. I feel like I parrot this almost daily, but it is so important to get sick fish out of your display tank to lesson chance of infecting others, put them in a low-stress environment to medicate and evaluate, medicate in a tank where you know nothing can absorb or alter the medication, avoid medicating anything that doesn't need it, and keep your display free of residual medication. And if you keep a QT set up at all times, giving new purchases two weeks in there before adding them to your main tank will go a long way to avoid introducing disease in the first place. I get why no one wants to do it, but I feel they are almost mandatory if you keep a lot of fish.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Could I keep a rubbermade tub with a sponge filter and plastic plants as a QT? I would keep it my display tank stand in the dark and dose ammonia to keep it cycled.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

No reason a QT has to be glass that I'm aware of. You'll want *some* light though. Fishes need a period of light and darkness, I just prefer to keep QTs on the dim side since the inhabitants are already going through a lot. And doublly for neons, which don't seem to prefer bright tanks.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Sure. I will set that up after this scenario(I am about broke). I could also add hornwort in case something goes wrong they could suck up a lot of bad stuff. I actually should do that to my tanks when on vacation.

Bump: Ok. So the next step is to get kanaplex and furan 2. When I get them I will dose until either all the fish die or they get better. I will keep them in that tank for now.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

My fancy QT system. It has yet to be setup.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Should I set this thing up ASAP and put the neons in it instead of the 10 gallon tank? It is probably bigger. I could also separate the sickest from the healthiest.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Well, I am only counting 10 neon tetras right now. I will tear apart their tank soon.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

I have some good news and some bad news. The good news is I'm pretty sure one less neon tetra is suffering from fin rot. The bad news is I'm pretty sure he died and was cannibalized.


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## united natures (May 15, 2019)

Um...do you have dechlorinated water and extra heater for the plastic bin? If so, I guess you can move the fin rot tetras to the bin. My experience with fin rot has always been to let the fish heal by itself so I can't help you much here unfortunately.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

I need sponge filter. Should arrive in a couple days. I do have a heater though.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Well the sponge filter and meds should arrive next week along with materials for DIY root tabs. I will start dosing meds ASAP. Should I move the fish to the QT tank? Either way I will keep dosing until either the fin rot starts to get better or I run out. If after a while I run out of medsand the fin rot has only gotten worse, what should I do?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

aquanerd13 said:


> Well the sponge filter and meds should arrive next week along with materials for DIY root tabs. I will start dosing meds ASAP. Should I move the fish to the QT tank? Either way I will keep dosing until either the fin rot starts to get better or I run out. If after a while I run out of medsand the fin rot has only gotten worse, what should I do?


 Just leave your neons in the cycled 10 gallon and treat with meds. 

It is good that you now have a quarantine system that you can put to work if you need it. But, it will be easier for you to use the 10 gallon for your hospital tank at this time. 

Also, take it one step at a time. After you are done treating will analyze where your fish are and what to do next.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Ok thank you.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

I was look at the furan 2 dosing online and it says to empty 1 packet for every 10 gallons, wait 24 hours, add another packet, wait another day, 25% water change. Repeat. It says you can use activated carbon to. The kanaplex says to add so much for 5 gallons(I will have to double dose for 10) every day for no more than 3 days.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

You dont want to use carbon when medicating. Very strange that it says that it is okay to. 
We typically will use carbon to clean out medications from water column after done treating- so very unusual that they say it is okay to. Better to not follow that advice. 

This is how you will dose and when will do water changes. 
So, in this case, will not do daily water changes before dosing, only on day 3 and day 5. On day 6 will do large water change to clear out meds ( and carbon if would like to). 

Day 1: Furan-2 and KanaPlex
Day 2: Furan-2
Day 3: 25% water change, Furan-2 and KanaPlex
Day 4: Furan-2
Day 5: 25% water change, Furan-2 and KanaPlex


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Perfect thank you so much! The kanaplex won't arrive until september 9 or 10 . I will start treatment then. No word of missing neon tetra yet. He probably got eaten by his/her buddies


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

I also forgot to mention that I completed the PH test. It was 7.2 out of the tap and became 7.6 24 hours later. 36 hours later, it was 6.8 after sitting in the test tube. Not sure what this means.

Bump: I would only get them if my neon tetras should all perish.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Well I received the furan 2. The kanaplax arrives September 9th or 10th. IDK when the sponge filter arrives.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

I now have all meds and all I need for a QT tank. Should I leave the fish or put them in QT?


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## germanblueramlover (Jun 9, 2013)

Leave them in the 10 and medicate that, as Discusluv suggested. Why move them and stress them more when you already have them alone in a system small enough to easily dose?


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Ok thank you. I started dosing in the 10 today. They will stay in there for now.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

So I am on day 3 of 6 with the kanaplex. So far, no changes.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Did you do the water change again before dosing? 
Are the fish eating?


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

I think they are. I will check soon. I have been doing a WC every other day as you said.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

aquanerd13 said:


> I think they are. I will check soon. I have been doing a WC every other day as you said.


If all of them are still eating that is an excellent sign that they are recovering-- a fish that can still get nutrition is a fish that can be cured.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Yes they are all eating. Even the one who I think has ND.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Well, I am have been noticing some aggression between the fish. Today is I think the 2nd to last day I can dose meds. So far, no difference.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

I just fed and medicated the fish. I realized this is my last day of medicating. What now? When I fed the fish, they attacked the food. They all seem a little plump, not quite overweight but healthy.

Bump: I am ready to buy the clove oil at any time. Just let me know:crying:


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

aquanerd13 said:


> I just fed and medicated the fish. I realized this is my last day of medicating. What now? When I fed the fish, they attacked the food. They all seem a little plump, not quite overweight but healthy.
> 
> Bump: I am ready to buy the clove oil at any time. Just let me know:crying:


If they are still eating then you do not need to euthanize them right now. This means there is a chance they will recover.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

OK good. What do I need to do? I know nothing about this. You tell me what I need to do, I go and do it. If I can afford it and it will save my fish.

Bump:


Discusluv said:


> If they are still eating then you do not need to euthanize them right now. This means there is a chance they will recover.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Now, you wait. 
Feed them daily, keep their tank uber clean, and wait and see if the antibiotics will heal them. 

Now, after 5 days we will see where they are. 
You've done a really great Job!


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

OK thank you. So bi-daily water changes for the next 5 days. Then report back.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

aquanerd13 said:


> OK thank you. So bi-daily water changes for the next 5 days. Then report back.



I think 1 x daily at 25% will be just fine.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Ok. I just did a %60 WC right now. Could I do a %50 every other day would be fine? It would just be more convenient. I can still do 1x daily at 25% if necessary.

Bump: Do you think the neon tetras will survive this?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

aquanerd13 said:


> Ok. I just did a %60 WC right now. Could I do a %50 every other day would be fine? It would just be more convenient. I can still do 1x daily at 25% if necessary.
> 
> Bump: Do you think the neon tetras will survive this?


 Do as much as is possible- every other day is fine. 



If you can get me a picture or, even better, a video, I would be much more certain to give you an answer. But, eating is the best sign that you have that a fish can recover. It means that it can bring in nutrients it needs to fight of illness and rebuild immune system.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Ummmm guys? I just put and an anubias on a piece if driftwood from the 10 with the sick fish into the 75 without thinking. What should I do?

Bump:


Discusluv said:


> Do as much as is possible- every other day is fine.
> 
> 
> 
> If you can get me a picture or, even better, a video, I would be much more certain to give you an answer. But, eating is the best sign that you have that a fish can recover. It means that it can bring in nutrients it needs to fight of illness and rebuild immune system.


Ok thanks I will get a video soon.

Bump: I looked at the fish again and I am fairly sure they are nearing obesity.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Should I strip down the tank? I have been told that it lives forever and is present in every tank, it just lies dormant until a fish gets stressed?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

No- dont strip down tank. 
Its done. Relax and be mindful to not do it again. 

Remember- no cross-contamination!


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Thank you, guys. I will be extra careful NOT to cross-contaminate. I can't believe I did that. I didn't realize what I had done until the wood was slowly sinking to the bottom of the tank.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Excellent article. This one is going into my file. Thank you @jeffkrol

Now, as this article discusses, columnaris, depending on the strain, can be either acute or chronic. Young fish are primarily the worst for wear under the acute strain that can kill fish within 12-48 hours- without external symptoms. This is probably the strain ( supposedly there are 4) that is most readily seen in fish that get at the LFS. Many of these fish are young, straight out of mass fish farms out of Florida. 
Adult and aged fish would already be in an aquarium, often times, and the columnaris bacteria already present in system waiting for a way in through environmental stress: whether it be : through poor water quality, con-specific stress, nutritional deficiencies, etcc... 
As this article states, in the aquarium, a more virulent strain of columnaris, in the absence of fish to infect, can turn into a less virulent strain to sustain itself- to save energy. 
This may be why sometimes you will see a total wipe-out in n aquarium of fish that an aquarist got from the LFS. In between adding another group of fish, the more virulent strain alters itself to a less virulent, more chronic strain. 
Later, in time, when or if a stressor occurs in the aquarium that lowers the immunity of the fish, this pathogen can can a foothold. But, to complicate it even more, the rate of transmission depends also on temperature, alkalinity/acidity, and redox potential. 

So, I dont think of columnaris as a pathogen that requires a total breakdown of the aquarium and sterilization as you would a viral infection like tuberculosis. Sure, the most virulent strain that takes out a whole tank can make one pause-- consider a sterilization of tank--- but, even healthy fish have been shown to bring the most virulent strain in on their gills without being infected themselves. This demonstrates that, like so many other bacterial infections in the aquarium, a healthy fish ( maintained through healthy water quality, low stress among con-specifics, and high nutrition) is the best defense.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Ok, thank you.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

It has been 6 days. No more deaths. The fish have only changed for the worse. What now?

Bump: 50% WC every other day.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

aquanerd13 said:


> It has been 6 days. No more deaths. The fish have only changed for the worse. What now?
> 
> Bump: 50% WC every other day.



Sorry, sometimes despite all we do it doesn't work out. If they are worse and not getting better than it may be time to euthenize with clove oil.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Ok thank you.


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

This is so morbid, but I think the freezer would be the most humane.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

https://kb.rspca.org.au/knowledge-base/what-is-the-most-humane-way-to-euthanase-aquarium-fish/


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

Thanks. This was educational and a bit sad.


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## Gordii (Sep 24, 2019)

Place them in a salt solution


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Gordii said:


> Place them in a salt solution


I would consider that far from humane.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Dang, really sorry to hear this. You did your best, but I suspect just got treatment started too late. Good to have those meds on hand for future quarantine though.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Yes, I agree that the treatment was far too late. I have lots of meds now though.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

I will have my mom pick up some clove oil next time she goes shopping. After the fish are gone, how should I disinfect the tank/filter/decor? I can bake the gravel. Should I use a mild bleach solution? Maybe a 1:5 bleach to water? What about the lid?


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## germanblueramlover (Jun 9, 2013)

I think the ratio is usually 1:10 bleach to water for aquarium uses. That may be overkill though - I've never done anything for sterilization other than giving it a good scrub with clean warm tap water and perhaps some white vinegar; but I'm not an expert on fish diseases so you might need to take this more intense route.

I'm very sorry for your loss, and I wish you better luck with your future stock.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

I will order clove oil tonight.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

3% bleach/ water solution is adequate. You do not need to bake gravel. Just soak in bleach solution, rinse well, and air dry.
All equipment that you sanitize use this same procedure: soak, rinse well, air-dry.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Ok, thank you.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Could I use crushed clove?


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

I used the physical method yesterday. I cut strips of tin foil, quickly wrapped the fish in them, set them on a cutting board, and smashed with a frying pan. Quick and painless. Thank you all so much for the support and advice! Special thanks to @Discusluv and @BlueRidgeReef. I could not have gotten this far without you guys. (or gal in Amy's case.) Thank yall again. I have the tank mostly torn down already.


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