# Soup, anyone?! Ideas please!!!



## dthb4438 (Nov 12, 2007)

3.9 wpg is pretty high for 9 hours a day, huh? I think you got a real bad algae bloom there and need to clear it up fast. A UV sterilizer will clear that up very quickly (like in a few hours). Try this link or wherever you like but I believe that this could help tremendously.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/pet_supplies.cfm?c=3578+4393

Also, here is a thread that is currently running that will help.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/70187-whats-main-difference-between-turbo-twist.html


----------



## jasa73 (Jun 3, 2007)

I would think that its your lighting. Before you go adding Excel and such, I would reduce your lighting in intensity and period. Definitely do W/C and perhaps get a UV to address the green water on the short term. 

I have a 55 gallon with 4x54 Watts T5. I have my lights on for a total of 8 hrs... 3 hrs (2 x 54 Watts) in the AM (9 am - 12 pm), lights off from 12pm - 4pm, then lights on 4 pm - 9pm (2 x 54). If i am home i turn the other two lights on for a couple hours, but i dont have the burst programmed in. 

If changing your lighting schedule doesnt work, then go ahead and think about Exel and your C02. But i find it's much easier to address issues by changing only one variable at a time.

GL!


----------



## fishbguy1 (Feb 29, 2008)

UV sterlizers=gift from god

My 40 had green water for about 7 months... nothin would clear it up. So I borrowed a sterlizer from my work, and it was gone ina day...in 2 days, it didn't even look like there was water in the tank it was so clear.


----------



## luv_my_grlz (Apr 29, 2008)

*More info*

Hi All,

Oh, yes, I'd love to have a UV sterilizer! But, unfortunately I've been spending a ton on this tank lately :icon_eek: so another big purchase isn't an option. And, also, on another forum I visit, a lot of folks there really discourage the use of UV sterilizers in planted tanks. They have reasons for it, but I've forgotten why. In any case, it's not an option for me.

I suspect you're right about the lighting being too much so I'll definitely make some drastic adjustments there. Though, it is worth noting that I already had the green water with my old fixture, which was just a single bulb 36" T5 HO (39w).

Now, using the CO2 calculator and based on my KH before dosing with baking soda (KH 1, pH 7), my CO2 concentration comes out to be 3 ppm. So that's why I'm thinking Excel might help. I'd *love* to go pressurized CO2, but again that's just not an expense I can do at this time.

Thinking about trying the 3 day blackout at well, but wondering if I should completely disconnect my DIY CO2 during that period, as the plants wouldn't be utilizing it and it could possibly overwhelm the fishies?

Thanks all for your thoughts and helping me work through this.

Cheers!


----------



## EdTheEdge (Jan 25, 2007)

Blackouts work sometimes. I wouldn't count on it. I would turn off your CO2 and do water changes everyday during the blackout period.


----------



## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

EdTheEdge said:


> Blackouts work sometimes. I wouldn't count on it. I would turn off your CO2 and do water changes everyday during the blackout period.


Blackouts never ever worked for me.....I did it before for 4 days, opened it back up and in a day or two it comes back. Was useless for me. I did this about two times. The tank was a lot clearer when I opened it but it just comes back.

I wouldn't count on blackouts either, but if you do plan to do black out (sentence in direct to the O.P. of this thread) you must make sure that it is a COMPLETE black out. Any hint of light during the process will probably demean it.

Awhile back, someone also told me to join a planted tanks group that had a UV sterilizer that I could burrow. I didn't, but my friend was in one and he hooked me up and that cleaned my problem fairly fast.

Blackout and water changes or save yourself some frustration and get a UV sterilizer.


----------



## KurtG (Dec 10, 2007)

less light & lots more plants, or buy the UV for the greenwater. 

Frankly, I think it will be difficult to keep your tank stable with that much light, dosing, and diy CO2. Greenwater may just be the first of many algal issues.


----------



## luv_my_grlz (Apr 29, 2008)

*More...*

Thanks all. 

Wow, I was thinking I had a lot of plants already! Ha ha. I probably have at least 20 different ones in there, but I guess I just need more of them, huh?

I did a massive water change last night and am doing a three day blackout, after which I will reduce my light to only using 2 of the 4 bulbs, so 108w.

Also looking into the UV option (even though I said I didn't want to spend anymore $$$, ha ha). I see them as cheap as $50. Would one like that do the trick?

Lastly, I'm thinking more and more about going pressurized CO2, but the cheapest complete systems I'm seeing for that are like $300. I don't want to buy junk, but can anybody recommend a good inexpensive one?

Funny how I thought this 55 gallon would be a piece of cake, considering the phenomenal luck I've had with my little 3 gallon Eclipse. :tongue:

Thanks again; you guys are great!


----------



## KurtG (Dec 10, 2007)

The basic budget regulator is the Milwaukee with solenoid (check on ebay), tanks depend upon your local source (swaps or refills).

The small in tank UVs do work (for greenwater) and are ~$50.

I don't know your lighting set-up, but may be easier to run fewer bulbs until you get more plant mass established in the tank.


----------



## luv_my_grlz (Apr 29, 2008)

*What about submersible UV?*

Since I'm running a HOB biowheel filter rather than a powerhead, I was wondering about these submersible UV sterilizers?

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4393+16748&pcatid=16748

What do you think? Anybody try one before?


----------



## Manda99 (Apr 30, 2008)

luv_my_grlz said:


> Since I'm running a HOB biowheel filter rather than a powerhead, I was wondering about these submersible UV sterilizers?
> 
> http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4393+16748&pcatid=16748
> 
> What do you think? Anybody try one before?


I've got that one. Bought it myself during the middle of a green water outbreak. =) Worked very well. My water was very, very green. After about 2 days, the green was mostly gone as far as I could see. I let it run for a full 72 hours just to be certain. It did heat up my water a lot though - but I have a small tank. I had to actively watch and maintain the water temperature.


----------



## dthb4438 (Nov 12, 2007)

Just curious, what was supposed to be the problem with the UV sterilizers that everyone was talking about on your other forum? I've had absolutely NO issue with mine. I had only one algae outbreak when I was first starting up everything and turned that thing on and the water was crystal clear in two hours. The plants, fish and everything was just fine. I was just wondering what the issue was about it cause I've never heard anything bad about them, until now.

Maybe you can borrow a UV from someone. 

Take a look at some of the other tanks in the upper left of this page under "Your Tanks". You can get an idea of what people have in them as far as how many plants, size, requirements, lights and light period, etc.


----------



## luv_my_grlz (Apr 29, 2008)

*UV Sterilizers*

Hi Holly,

You got my curiosity up so I went hunting over there. I found several threads that said basically, "UV sterilizers will slow your growth, as they affect/oxidize the dissolved nutrients". No other details though...which makes me wonder if that's mostly speculation.

Sometimes folks can be "set in their ways" and touchy about things. So if they think UV Sterilizers are bad, then that's all there is to it as far as they are concerned. I'd have to say I find this forum a lot more open-minded and less judgmental.

I'm thinking more and more that in my case, the submersible UV sterilizer may be the way to go. I've spent so much on the tank already, what's another $50 or so?! 

Cheers!


----------



## Soujirou (Jun 16, 2008)

Perhaps I need the some help from veteran aquarists, but doesn't using a bio-wheel outgas a lot of the CO2 you are adding? Unless they are small, something seems wrong with using 3 DIY CO2 reactors and only getting 3 ppm CO2. I had 1 2L bottle for a 30 gallon that was being badly diffused by an airstone and I was getting 11 ppm.

I think the thing about a UV sterilizer is that it is just a band-aid for the underlying problem. It doesn't change the fact that you have a system that is favoring algae growth over plant growth. The plants will benefit in that they no longer compete with algae for light and nutrients, but they are still in an unfavorable environment. In this case, it seems like a high light, low CO2 environment, which is good for algae and bad for plants. Even if you get rid of the algae, you are still going to need way more CO2 for the amount of light you are using.

I believe the culprit is your biowheel filter. Unfortunately, this means you would have to pay for a new filter (probably a canister filter), which would be at least $100 if not more for a tank of your size.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I agree, I think you need to remove the biowheels from your filter. Keep the water level in the tank up to minimize surface agitation. Especially since you're doing DIY versus pressurized CO2.

I had some pretty serious GW in my 90gal until just a few weeks ago.










All I did was wait it out. Took patience (6-8 weeks) but my tank is now crystal clear (pics taken tonight).



















I also agree that 216watts of T5HO is way overkill on your tank. I only run 108watts of T5HO over this 90gal. IMO get your lighting down, make sure your CO2 is as consistent as you can get it, and things should eventually level out for you.


----------



## DiscusIt'sWhats4DinneR (Apr 25, 2008)

i use lighting similar to what you have, but it's even higher intensity.
i had green water a few times, along with plenty of other algaes.
there is nothing wrong with using this much light, i burn mine 12 hours a day!
it just becomes a lot harder to manage a balance that way.

a few times when i had GW i just vaccumed the substrate real good and cleaned the filter. it went away soon after.

another time i had it it was more difficult, but i repeated the above and it went away again after a couple weeks.

then another time it just would not go away for weeks despite constant cleaning and effort. while at petsmart i picked up a 24 watt uv sterilizer. this is the complete submersable deal with it's own pump. it is awesome, and cheap. 55 dollars and you can have one of your own.

it seems green water likes to show up when there is a lot of crap in the tank, i think it's just from an ammonia spike. it usually happens right after we move plants around and disturb the substrate, or we go too long between filter cleanings of gravel vacuuming. 

blackouts do work, you just have to be sure that NO LIGHT at all enters the tank! these floating photosynthetic critters multiply extremely fast, they dont need much light to reproduce in a little colony, just waiting until you pull off the covers so they can strike back with vengence.


----------



## luv_my_grlz (Apr 29, 2008)

*Outgas questions re: filters*

Hi all, and thanks for the latest responses.

Yes, I realize now that I made a mistake buying the biowheel filter. I thought I had done a lot of research before getting it, but I guess I did more generic research and not specifically in regards to planted tanks, CO2, etc. I really hate to think about having to replace what is, essentially, a brand new filter...but, I'm considering it.

So, would I be right to assume that ANY filter system that takes the water out of the tank and returns it would be an outgas problem for the CO2, it's not just the biowheel? I'm pretty stumped as to what system wouldn't.

Now, we do have a canister filter on one of our other tanks that just has miscellaneous fish in it (no plants). So maybe I should swap and put that filter on my tank, and the biowheel on the non-planted? Hmmm.

And, as an update, I'm now on day 2 of total blackout and saw much improvement when I did a massive water change last night. So maybe with doing that, changing up the filtration, and reducing my light, I'll get back on track. So in hopes of that, I guess I'll hold off on the UV sterilizer purchase for now.

Anyway, let me know what you think of my plan of swapping those filters, if that would help boost my CO2 levels.

Thanks!


----------



## dthb4438 (Nov 12, 2007)

That sounds like a do-able thing. Swap filters. Keep the return outlet under the waters surface so that there isn't as much movement. That keeps your C02 in the water longer. My 55 gallon uses an Eheim 2213 canister and I also use a powerhead to help with the C02 dispersement. The C02 stays at a constant 30 ppm and the plants love it. (see my tanks)

As far as the UV sterilizers go...I beleive that they are supposed to be used only when there is a problem. I don't think that they are to be used continuously. I could see that there could be a problem there. You are to use it ONLY when there is a problem. Maybe that's what your other forum people are doing. I dunno...

Good luck!!


----------



## Soujirou (Jun 16, 2008)

Anything that creates more surface area between water and air (like bubbles) will outgass CO2 but allows more O2 to dissolve into the water. If the spray bar was above the water line, it would definitely outgass the CO2 but as long as it's below the water line it should be fine. I believe bio wheels maximize the amount of O2 in the water because it is beneficial for the bacteria living on the wheel.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Soujirou said:


> Anything that creates more surface area between water and air (like bubbles) will outgass CO2 but allows more O2 to dissolve into the water. If the spray bar was above the water line, it would definitely outgass the CO2 but as long as it's below the water line it should be fine. I believe bio wheels maximize the amount of O2 in the water because it is beneficial for the bacteria living on the wheel.


That's correct. :thumbsup: 

If you've got an Emperor/Penguin HOB it's really easy just to lift the wheels off and use the filter without them.

Or swap over the canister (as long as the filter is sufficient for this tank?)

There are many who run UVs on their tanks all the time, day in, day out, 24/7. Some of the techy filters even have built-in UVs.


----------



## luv_my_grlz (Apr 29, 2008)

*Remove the biowheels*

Really?! So just removing the biowheels themselves, but continuing to use the HOB filter, will help raise my CO2 levels? That's easy enough to do, but you know the filter still brings the water up out of the tank, through the filter, and then back into the tank. Guess I could give it a try and see what difference it makes...certainly would be easier than switching over to the canister filter which is temperamental (gotta burp it if I recall--I kinda hate the thing so usually I make hubby deal with it, ha ha).


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

The issue isn't water movement, it's how much the water is exposed to the surface/air, especially through surface agitation. The water movement across the biowheel would end up outgassing more CO2 than just moving through the filter itself (though that will have an impact as well). If you keep the water level in the tank up to minimize the splashing from the water return HOB then this should help, also.


----------



## Avalon (Aug 14, 2004)

When a tank gets green water, my first 3 questions are: What is your tank stock level? What kind of filtration do you have? And how much light do you have over your tank?

Green water is caused by NH4, usually in tandem with high light. 216 watts of T5HO is so far beyond overkill for your tank it's ridiculous. Did you know you could get by with one 54w bulb? Two would be a little better if you could only use one of the two for about 5 hours per day. I think I've made my point about the light.

The filtration on the other hand needs an upgrade. Power filters do not belong on planted tanks. Sure you can use them and get by, but it's possible this GW could have been avoided, but with that kind of light I don't know. First and foremost, I dislike Marineland's "biowheel" concept for reasons I don't want to get into right now (read: gimmick). Secondly, a biological filter imparts a huge influence on the overall health of a planted aqaurium, effectively defending it from less than perfect situations (notice I didn't say conditions). Therefore, it's important to have a filter that can cater to this need. Enter the quality cannister filter. It can perforn it's job far more efficiently than any power filter can dare hope, and it can provide for the necessary biological filtration capacity. A biofilter isn't a static thing...it changes all the time relative to enviornmental conditions. Think of a power filter as a two-lane highway trying to provide for rush hour traffic. Think of a cannister filter as a 10-lane highway during rush hour traffic. You get the point. 

The bottom line is you had a little NH4 spike in your tank, the filter couldn't handle it--or even allowed for it in the first place. Couple that tiny spike with extreme lighting and bam, GW.

A UV sterilizer is the best way to get rid of it. I'd recommend buying one if you have some spare change lying around. You can use it all the time if you want. All that garbage you hear about oxidation and what not is just that--garbage. I can prove to you it doesn't affect the health of your plants and you can dose what you want, how you want.


----------



## Soujirou (Jun 16, 2008)

Ack, now I'm confused. My Marineland 350 are you referring to a Magnum 350 is just a canister filter with a bio-wheel attachment that is completely optional?


----------



## luv_my_grlz (Apr 29, 2008)

*Status*

Hi all, and thanks again everyone. This forum has been so much help to me!

I appreciate the thoughts on the biowheel, though actually I have really liked them in the past--just my personal opinion. We have them on the aquariums we maintain at my girls' school, and also I have one in my 3 gallon eclipse tank, and they've been great. Granted, however, it was not the best choice for my planted 55--I see that now. C'est la vie, I suppose.

Sooooooo...here we are after a 2 day blackout, removed the biowheels (but still using the Marineland 350 filter), adding Excel to my ferts, and renewed my CO2 bottles so I'm really hoping that by also reducing my lighting by 1/2, I can keep it in check:










Take a look at my center "feature" though, it's one of those fake branches from PetsMart. When I first started up this tank, we were using the below setup, which is a piece of fallen wood we found in a forest:










I liked the looks of it better, but we soon had kinda brownish water so I assumed it was tannins and that's why we took it out. Is there anything I can do to that piece of wood to prep it for putting back in the aquarium?

Thanks again all!


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Boiling the wood and/or running it through the dishwasher (with no chemicals) helps it release much of its tannins.

Throwing a bag of Seachem's Purigen in your filter will keep the tank crystal clear and absorb any more that leech out. Nice thing about Purigen is that you can regenerate it very easily with some bleach and keep it going for a long, long time. :thumbsup:


----------



## luv_my_grlz (Apr 29, 2008)

*Thanks Laurel!*

Thanks Laurel, and by the way, I've really enjoyed reading your 90 gal journal. Not all the way through it yet, but getting there! You're a good writer.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

LOL Thanks, and that's a LOT of reading!


----------



## Soujirou (Jun 16, 2008)

For my driftwood, I left it in a bucket of water for 3 days and changed the water every day. By the third day hardly anything was leeching out.


----------



## Avalon (Aug 14, 2004)

Soujirou said:


> Ack, now I'm confused. My Marineland 350 are you referring to a Magnum 350 is just a canister filter with a bio-wheel attachment that is completely optional?



The Magnum 350 is an ok cannister filter for light duty applications, but you should fill the media basket with biomedia, not carbon. The biowheel attachment is totally optional, and are better suited for fish-only applications.


----------



## luv_my_grlz (Apr 29, 2008)

*Woohoo!*

Hi All,

Just wanted to give you an update, and my eternal thanks for all the help here. After several days, I've still got crystal clear water. A synopsis of the corrective actions:

1. Reduced light to 108w T5 HO (1 6500K bulb, 1 10,000K bulb)
2. Removed the biowheels but still using the marineland filter
3. Started dosing Excel every day
4. Reduced fish food
5. Renewed CO2 bottles
6. Added air pump for nighttime

This was all after doing a 2 day total blackout.

Right now I'm still soaking my driftwood, but it's leaching a lot so I'm not sure if it will ever really be suitable for my tank. Too bad, I really liked it. Oh well!

Thanks again all, you rock!


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Stick a bag of Purigen in your filter and it will take care of the tannins for you. :thumbsup: 

Glad to hear the tank is doing better! :thumbsup: (where are the pics?  )


----------



## luv_my_grlz (Apr 29, 2008)

*Latest!*

Hi Laurel!

Well, ok, :smile: since you asked...










Granted, my skills as an aqua-scaper leave a LOT to be desired, but once everything starts growing up I guess I'll see what survived, what didn't, and then rearrange accordingly.

At least my water is CRYSTAL clear! Woohoo!!! And I'm happy!!! :thumbsup:


----------



## bulrush (May 7, 2007)

Any filter feeder will take care of the floating algae, like: atyid shrimp, daphnia, golden clams. I only wish I could grow greenwater like that. I only get greenwater in barrels outside when the temps hit 80-85F. They seem to require the higher temperatures. How about turning your temperature down to 75F?


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Looks great! :thumbsup: :fish:


----------

