# seachem flourish only fert u need?



## Nolan W. (Feb 9, 2005)

Flourish provides micro nutrients. I think some macro nutrients would be beneficial to the plants, unless you have a large fish load in the tank.


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

With high light and CO2 you'll need to dose ferts above and beyond the trace elements that Flourish provides.


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## ValorG (Dec 27, 2003)

Corydoras85 said:


> Flourish provides micro nutrients. I think some macro nutrients would be beneficial to the plants, unless you have a large fish load in the tank.


I think it has macronutrients too, well i have a high fish load, 7 adult discus + 16" arowana + 2 plecos in a 75 gal.


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## ValorG (Dec 27, 2003)

bharada said:


> With high light and CO2 you'll need to dose ferts above and beyond the trace elements that Flourish provides.


any recomendations of brands that have most or all of the nutrients i need in higher concentrations?


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

Flourish is predominantly a trace element mix...an macro nutrients in there is purely coincidental. 

Your bio load will probably provide sufficient NO3 and possibly PO4 levels, but you may find yourself lacking in potassium (K).

In my 125g tank, while my fish load and feeding maintain NO3 at 15-20ppm during the week, I find myself having to add 10-20ppm of K and 1ppm of PO4 every other day to keep the plants happy and algae at bay.


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## Pete City (Apr 2, 2005)

Flourish actually contains small amount of Nitrogen, Phosphorous & Potassium, it's usually not enough, heavily planted tanks with CO2, high light and fast growing stem plants rip through things like nitrogen & phosphates very fast, you will notice on this and other forums people are constantly discussing NO3 readings & PO3 readings (Nitrate & Phosphate) and trying to get them to desirable levels, because deficiencies in these Macro nutrients can lead to unbalace in the aquarium and battles with all types of algae.
So depending on things like your local tap water which can sometimes contain enough phosphate, and your fish load which can sometimes take care of your nitrates, then the answer would be yes, flourish alone should be fine, but if I were you I would test for it to see for sure.
In my tank I keep my NO3 (nitrate) readings in the 10 to 20ppm range and my PO3 (phosphate) in the .05 to 1 range, and I still havent got my PO3 dosing right so I'm constantly tweaking my fertilizer regiment.
Hope I didn't ramble to much and that this makes sense.


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

ValorG said:


> any recomendations of brands that have most or all of the nutrients i need in higher concentrations?


Gregwatson.com is the place to go for dry fedrtilizing compounds. There really is no pre-made product that is suited for a high-tech tank as each has its own requirements. Like I mentioned regarding your bio load, you'll probably only need K and perhaps P supplements. This is much easier to accomplish if you have all your ferts as separate compounds.


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

bharada said:


> Gregwatson.com is the place to go for dry fedrtilizing compounds. There really is no pre-made product that is suited for a high-tech tank as each has its own requirements. Like I mentioned regarding your bio load, you'll probably only need K and perhaps P supplements. This is much easier to accomplish if you have all your ferts as separate compounds.


Gregwatson.com will not include mixing and dosing instructions. You will need to do research to determine exactly what to dose and how much. In my opinion it is best used by intermediates to experts.

I am not sure where you are getting that there is no pre-made product for high tech tanks. Many companies have their own product lines, including Seachem, Kent, and even Amano.

Flourish contains mainly micronutrients and some macronutrients. Some nutrients get used up quicker than others, so Seachem makes a product called Flourish Trace that you dose in addition to Flourish. They also make Potassium, Iron, Nitrogen, Phosphate, and Carbon supplements.

Here's Seachem's recommended schedule:










Some notes:

- If you are injecting CO2, you do not need "Acid Buffer." This CO2 *is* your acid buffer.

- Seachem Equilibrium raises GH. It contains calcium and magnesium in a 3:1 ratio, but it *mostly* contains potassium. Personally I don't like to add potassium levels in my tank as high as Equilibrium makes them, so I *do* use Greg Watson CaCl2 and MgSO4 to raise my GH. If you use Equilibrium there's really no need to dose additional potassium.

- If you have a _full_ fish load, you likely already have sufficient phosphate and nitrate levels. Use phosphate and nitrate test kits to check.

- Flourish Excel is NOT CO2. Although it's advertised "use it alone or with CO2 injection," it really works best with CO2 injection. It is an isomer of the disinfectant known as Glutaraldehyde, which Seachem calls "Polycycloglutaracetal." An isomer is a compond that has the exact same atoms & atomic weight as another compound, but has a different molecular structure. "Polycycloglutaracetal's" structure apparently gives plants extra carbon molecules... sort of a "boost."

Hope that helps!


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

Hypancistrus, your litany of Seachem products only confirms that you will not be able to find a ready made, one-bottle-does-it-all fertilizing solution. There is no aquatic version of MiracleGro for the high tech planted tank.

And while you will be able to use commercially available macro solutions in a high-tech 75g tank, the cost of these will far exceed the cost of buying the dry chemicals from gregwatson.com and doing a little online research.


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## ValorG (Dec 27, 2003)

thank you everybody for the great info, i will be testing my phosphate and nitrate levels later today to see if I need any of that. if i dont i suppose all i need is potasium as u guys have sed? just want to be sure


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## Tino (Jan 9, 2005)

-Quote: Seachem Equilibrium raises GH. It contains calcium and magnesium in a 3:1 ratio, but it *mostly* contains potassium. Personally I don't like to add potassium levels in my tank as high as Equilibrium makes them, so I *do* use Greg Watson CaCl2 and MgSO4 to raise my GH. If you use Equilibrium there's really no need to dose additional potassium.

I think it really depends. I use the recommended dose at water changes and found out that it only has enough K to last for about 4 days, then I have to dose at least 2 ml extra to last the rest of the week. But this is just IME, and I think the blame lies on my favourite milfoil  which also bottoms out Nitrates at alarming rate  . 
As far as Excel, I discovered the best results using 1.5 recommended dose every day.
Sorry to get a bit off the topic.


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## eds (Feb 12, 2003)

Man, besides the hassle of dosing various amounts out of up to 5 bottles of liquid per day, can you imagine how pricey it would be to follow that Seachem schedule for any period of time?!


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## pk-sd (Feb 16, 2005)

In my 50g medium planted tank my weekly dose is:

Flourish – 15 ml
Flourish Potassium – 15 ml
Flourish Iron – 10 ml

Purchase Phosphate and Nitrogen, but do not need to use it. Do not need Flourish Trace, most of that is already in my tap water.

With a cost of $4-$5 per bottle of $250ml. My monthly cost of dosing flourish line of products is $2.79. Now if you cannot come with $2.79 per month for the ferts, you are in the wrong hobby.

Seachem flourish is product that has been time tested over time. PMDD is too new and too time consuming to just save $2.79 per month.


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## eds (Feb 12, 2003)

pk-sd said:


> With a cost of $4-$5 per bottle of $250ml. My monthly cost of dosing flourish line of products is $2.79.


The chart *Hy* posted recommends that you regularly use 4 other Seachem products in addition to the 3 you use, dosing Excel and Trace in considerably higher amounts than your 3. 

I've got to assume that dosing as recommended in the chart would have to be at least $10 per month for a 50g, and probably much more. Of course, you could cut a good share of it out using DIY CO2 and dropping the Excel.

Also, even small monthly costs add up over time. $3 a month adds up to $36 a year you don't have to spend on plants, fish, equipment, etc. As my cheapass old Bohunk father-in-law says, _"Watch the nickels, and the dollars will follow."_


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

In my 125g tank a 250ml bottle of Flourish Potassium would not last a week. So now I'm spending $5 x 52 weeks, or $260+ a year on Flourish Potassium supplements alone. By contrast, a year's worth of K2SO4 would run me about $16 from gregwatson.com. With phosphorus it's even more dramatic since 1 lb of KH2PO4 is enough to dose my 125g tank for about 4 years and costs only $3.42.


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

pk-sd said:


> In my 50g medium planted tank my weekly dose is:
> 
> Flourish – 15 ml
> Flourish Potassium – 15 ml
> ...


I can assure you in a heavily planted, high light, CO2 enriched tank, many times your dosing amount is required to avoid plant deficiency, especially in the potassium department.

It never ceases to amaze me how one thinks dosing 1 teaspoon of K2SO4 is hard, while measuring x ml of Seachem potassium is so easy.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

pk-sd said:


> In my 50g medium planted tank my weekly dose is:
> 
> Flourish – 15 ml
> Flourish Potassium – 15 ml
> ...



You should be dosing more like 100ml a week of Seachem Potassium. And I don't see any macros listed either.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

There are some people who slept during math class that seem unable to figure out how to dose bulk fertilizers. I even added a section to my Guide to help them out. And I'm always available via email or PM to help people out. But if you want to think that commercial products are superior to bulk then go ahead. Even though the MSDS shows they are using the same thing that the bulk product is and you are paying a very high price for a small amount of fertilizers.

I too fail to see how dosing a teaspoon of K2SO4 is harder than measuring out 100 of Seachem Potassium. But to each his own.


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

Somehow in all this discussion on the merits of dry dosing chemical ferts no one's seemed to have raised an eyebrow at a 75g tank housing 7 adult discus and a 16" arowana


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

bharada said:


> Somehow in all this discussion on the merits of dry dosing chemical ferts no one's seemed to have raised an eyebrow at a 75g tank housing 7 adult discus and a 16" arowana


He will do fine with daily water changes :icon_bigg


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## ValorG (Dec 27, 2003)

bharada said:


> Somehow in all this discussion on the merits of dry dosing chemical ferts no one's seemed to have raised an eyebrow at a 75g tank housing 7 adult discus and a 16" arowana


lol whats wrong with that, I have no ammonia problems and my fish are healthy.


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## ValorG (Dec 27, 2003)

I checked out the gregwatson site and i saw potassium phosphate potassium nitrate and potassium sulphate? which one to get if all i want is potassium?


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

ValorG said:


> lol whats wrong with that, I have no ammonia problems and my fish are healthy.


You have to post some pictures of your tank! Those discus and arowana must be a sight to be seen! 

For potassium you want to order the potassium sulfate (K2SO4). Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) is more an NO3 source and the Mono Potassium Phosphate is a PO4 source.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

ValorG said:


> I checked out the gregwatson site and i saw potassium phosphate potassium nitrate and potassium sulphate? which one to get if all i want is potassium?



Well it's a pretty good chance that potassium nitrate is going to add nitrates.

And it's a equal chance that potassium phosphate is going to add phosphates.

So that pretty much leaves the potassium supplement as potassium sulfate.


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## Scout (Mar 30, 2005)

Sorry Val but your tank is pretty small for an adult Arowana by himself. I have a 112 gal for my Arowana and plan on puting him in a 180 gal at 18 inches. What type is he? Is he a jumper?


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## ValorG (Dec 27, 2003)

Scout said:


> Sorry Val but your tank is pretty small for an adult Arowana by himself. I have a 112 gal for my Arowana and plan on puting him in a 180 gal at 18 inches. What type is he? Is he a jumper?


yah i know but i live with my parents and thats the biggest tank id be able to get, I actually had to sneak it in. I had a 55 gallon before. he's a black aro and no he is not a jumper.


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## ValorG (Dec 27, 2003)

bharada said:


> You have to post some pictures of your tank! Those discus and arowana must be a sight to be seen!
> 
> For potassium you want to order the potassium sulfate (K2SO4). Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) is more an NO3 source and the Mono Potassium Phosphate is a PO4 source.


heres a link to my gallery, the latest pics are on the bottom but u can at least see the progress. Its a barebottom tank but I plan on making it so that no pots can be seen in the future and that bag of gravel is to keep the driftwood down.http://www.arofanatics.com/members/valorg/plantedtank1stweek/


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## pk-sd (Feb 16, 2005)

It seems everyone uses PMDD to save money (POOR MAN’s…..). So even if my plants requirements quadruple (which I doubt) my cost would be $11.16/month. Small change compare to how much I spend on this hobby (including my SW reef tank).

So the difference between 1 teaspoon of K2SO4 and x ml of flourish is that, Seachem products have been around long time and time tested. On the other hand no one knows long term effects of PMDD. It really is there to save you $2-$5/month.

But if you are saying PMDD is as easy as using Seachem products then how come there are so many threads with people trying to figure out how to use it and get it dissolve this stuff in water.

Rex, If commercial time tested products are the same as PMDD, next time one has a headache would you suggest that he “roll” his own Tylenol. After all of the ingredients are listed on the bottle.  

Bottom line if got the money there is no need to mess with the Poor Man’s stuff. roud:


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

pk-sd,
PMDD is not what most of the advanced hobbiests are practicing nowadays. PMDD was based on limiting P in an effort to reduce/eliminate algae, and is a all-in-one solution that was to be dosed daily. It has since been shown that P is a critical element in any successful planted tank...particularly in a high-light, CO2 enriched one. Not even Greg Watson himself recommends anyone dose their tanks based on PMDD recommendations.

In fact most of us dose using the same premise that you appear to be, feeding the plants what they need to thrive. Only we're using inexpensive alternatives to brand name ones. To use your example, if a friend of mine had a headache I would not hesitate to recommend he take some generic acetometophen rather than spend his money on Tylenol.



pk-sd said:


> Bottom line if got the money there is no need to mess with the Poor Man’s stuff.


As I stated in my example a few posts up, the savings I achieve by using dry chemical ferts over commercial solutions runs in the hundreds of dollars per year. It's great that you find yourself able to justify the convenience over cost when using commercially made products, but for most of us this is not practical from an economics stand point. And for the record, even if money were no object I would still look to find a more economical way. The same way I would still do laundry even though I could buy new clothes every day.


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## Scout (Mar 30, 2005)

Nice ValorG! I like what you did with your tank. I wish That Aro would hold still! Have you seen this planted tank from arowanaclub? These pics have alot to do with why I started a planted tank. I hope to have a 180 gal planted Arowana tank in about 2 years so I figure I better start figuring it out now :wink: 

http://www.arowanaclub.com/ClubArticles/PTAquarist/HomeVisit.htm


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## ValorG (Dec 27, 2003)

if u like aros then here are pics of my black and my g/fs aussie, these were awhile back so both are bigger especially the ausie. http://www.arofanatics.com/index.ph...=movies/movies&categoryid=1&search_var=valorg


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

Tino said:


> I think it really depends. I use the recommended dose at water changes and found out that it only has enough K to last for about 4 days, then I have to dose at least 2 ml extra to last the rest of the week.


How are you testing for potassium?





shalu said:


> It never ceases to amaze me how one thinks dosing 1 teaspoon of K2SO4 is hard, while measuring x ml of Seachem potassium is so easy.


Mixing and dosing instructions are not included with Greg Watson orders. Yes there are online calculators or one could do the math themselves, but I suspect people are uneasy when there isn't a printed label. That's just reality. Honestly I can't figure out why Greg Watson doesn't take a little time to make some labels to put on his products that simply say "Add X grams to raise X level by this amount and X level by this amount," etc.

Liquid Seachem Potassium is not intended to raise K levels to 20 or more ppm, it is intended to _keep_ K levels where they are. That's why one "dose" per the label only raises K levels by 1-2 ppm. Equilibrium contains a LOT of potassium, so just adding a little of that raises K pretty high.





pk-sd said:


> Bottom line if got the money there is no need to mess with the Poor Man’s stuff.


Well, I switched to Greg Watson for Calcium and Magnesium for GH, because Equilibrium raises K higher than I want, and Kent Botanica GH+ contains a 1:1 ratio of Calcium:Magnesium, when I want it 3:1. I may also start using Greg Watson K2SO4 just to tweak my K levels to where I want them (I test using the LaMotte Potassium test kit). But I agree that Seachem Flourish is a much more comprehensive trace mix than the Plantex stuff Greg Watson sells. Flourish Iron is a weaker Chelate than the Greg Watson stuff so it's readily absorbed by plants. And Flourish Excel (as I mentioned) is Seachem exclusive science (a Glutaraldehyde isomer)... they say they will release their info once their patents are granted. Seachem Nitrogen is a blend of Potassium Nitrate, Ammonium, and Guanidine (NHC[NH2]2)... in other words, it's more comprehensive as it's a blend of different nitro sources.

"PMDD" is sort of a buzzword that often refers to using "bulk" chemicals like the ones Greg Watson sells. As bharada said, Greg Watson himself recommends against using a PMDD premix (but he still sells it because some people want it).


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## pk-sd (Feb 16, 2005)

bharada said:


> pk-sd,
> .......I would not hesitate to recommend he take some generic acetometophen rather than spend his money on Tylenol.


No I never buy generic medication. My brother-in-law is a doctor and he strongly advises against them. Small companies just do not have the same quality control as the big companies. Big companies have lot more to loose. When things go wrong, small companies can just shutdown and start again with different name (sounds familiar ?).



bharada said:


> ......The same way I would still do laundry even though I could buy new clothes every day.


But for your nicer cloths you would rather have them dry cleaned. Rather than using industrial strength detergents. Sure the cloths will be clean, but what is the long term effect on them ?

But on the other hand I can see myself using PMDD in the future as it would be nice challenge. Right now I have lots of other things to learn, like how to make my plants pearl (and last night I succeeded).


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