# Jack Dempsey - cloudy eyes?



## Bunfoo (Jan 14, 2012)

My father came to visit and brought with him a small jack dempsey as a gift - we used to have a breeding pair as a child so he probably thought I'd love it, and I do, but the only tank I have is my 5.5g. I ploped him/her in there for now, and s/he was doing great, but then I added a heater (A new one) and set the temp to stay at 76. Ever since I added the heater I've noticed something is wrong. S/he seems listless at times and then very hyper at others. I've noticed her eyes seem almost cloudy. S/he is also not eating, I've offered flakes, brine shrimp, and even live shrimps. S/he wont touch anything. S/he's only hanging out at the top of the tank in the tiny space between the heater and the glass.

Anyone know what is going on? I took the heater out since this only started after I added it in.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Ammonia causes cloudy eyes. Probably ammonia poisoning. Change a lot of water (which isn't even that much) throughout the day until you can have something bigger


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## Bunfoo (Jan 14, 2012)

Oh! I had no idea! I've been keeping that tank on a 3x a week 25% water change. with a 50% change on Saturdays. 

Why would the cloudy eyes not show until the heater was added? S/he was doing perfectly fine until this morning, eating, swimming, great colors. I added the heater last night.

I'll go do a 75% change right now. Would a 50%-75% change every day be safe, or would that stress her/him out? The tank is planted. I won't be able to get a bigger tank until early-mid next month, but I don't mind doing the water changes every day.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

No idea about the heater. Could honestly just be a coincidence? I'd say that'll be fine, just make sure the temp is the same. It'll stress the fish for a few minutes but it'll be fine and happy most likely in a few minutes. A couple days of clean fresh water and he should be back to normal. My thoughts though, could be wrong. I just know ammonia burns the eyes and causes them to be cloudy, a EBJD in a 5.5 seems likely ammonia could be an issue. If the water was a good temp then a heater doesn't seem needed if you think that might be an issue.


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## Bunfoo (Jan 14, 2012)

We actually just got about 6 inches of snow, so that's why I added the heater. Usually it's 68-75F in my non-heated tanks but today my gold's tank dropped to 61F so just in case I put heaters on my 5.5 and my gold's tank. 

I just finished the water change. I'll continue to do them. If it better to do the water change all at once or change a cup or two each hour through the day? I'm going to toss in some floaters and see if that will help any. 

Do I continue to try and feed it, or give her a day or two before trying again?


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

If it isn't eating I wouldn't feed, it'll just decay and ruin the water quality. Water changes don't particularly matter, it's whatever your comfortable with. I've seen people with discus drain the tank to an inch or so with them completely laying on their sides. That's a lot more stressful than anything you could do to your EBJD. You'll be fine, just change the water. Amazing about the snow, I'll say the heater has nothing to do with this so if there's an issue with temp heaters are needed


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## Bunfoo (Jan 14, 2012)

Just went over to check on it again and found it upside down on the bottom of the tank. 
My brother just informed me that his guppies all died within a day of using the same heater. I cannot help but feel it may have something to do with the heater. She was doing just fine before I added it with no signs of illness and now I think she's quite dying. I moved her to an empty tub of clean water the same temperature as the tank and am going to hope she lives. 

The heater was keeping the tank stable at temperature, so I know the water wasn't overheating. 

he said his guppies had similar symptoms. They were listless at times and then very hyper before eventually going upside down at the bottom of the tank with cloudy eyes. He keeps the tanks in his house very clean so I don't think his fish would have died of ammonia. I'm going to take the heater back to the store I bought it from and tell them what is going on. 

Could the heater have some kind of chemical coating that the fish were sensitive to?


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Huh. Maybe. You never know, I'd put it aside for now. Scary though, that's a new heater. Float a bag of hot water in the tank to kind of act as a heater if it gets too cold. Hopefully it pulls through. Ammonia seems unlikely at this point as his fish all died and it wouldn't likely be the same thing. Something probably happened to this heater, spray or something got on it? You never know.


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## moosenart (Feb 18, 2012)

Get a new heater. Try to find more info on it!


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## Bunfoo (Jan 14, 2012)

It might be. The heater was purchased new and was floated before it was used though... She is trying to swim around now and has managed to right herself up for a few seconds at a time but then kind of whirls a bit. . I think my brother may have the packaging for it since I bought it for him so I'm going to see if they'll let me return it without the packaging. I've got the receipt though. I used this same heater once before on a dying guppy but didn't even think that the heater had any problems. I just assumed she died because she was sick. Thinking back though, the only symptom they share is that she died on the bottom of the tank as well. 



S/he's gasping pretty hard, I think she's trying to swim around but is having a really hard time. I think the water change triggered whatever is going here. If that is the case though I have no idea why s/he seems to be doing better in just the new water. 

Yeesh. If she lives the night I'm going to stretch my wallet and go buy her a much bigger tank tomorrow and just turn on a space heater.. I feel really bad for what is going on and quite hope she lives. 

I will grab a picture in a second. More experienced fish people might be able to see something I am missing.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Possibly. All the symptoms led to ammonia poisoning, but that would be fixed with a water change, it's a bigger issue than ammonia. I cannot think of what it can be though, obviously related to the heater though


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## Bunfoo (Jan 14, 2012)

Yes, I am almost sure it has something to do with the heater. She had been in that tank for a little over a week just fine (The tank is relatively new itself, but I cannot think of anything that would have caused a drastic change other than the heater) until the heater was added.

S/he's still trying to swim around but is back to the bottom and upside down. The white things are bubbles. I couldn't get a good picture in the tub so I moved her to a jar. If anyone sees anything I missed that might help me figure out what happened please let me know. Thank god I didn't use this heater in my other tank with more fish in it! 


































I will take more picture if anyone thinks they can see something that might help.

Edit: So this is the symptoms I can think of so far.
1. Started when the heater was added about 3 hrs later. She became very slow, hanging around the other side of the tank from the heater mid-tank.
2. This morning, she was very still. If you moved too close or disturbed the water she would dart around VERY fast for a few seconds and then stop. 
3. She would not eat anything I offered. 
4. About 3 hours ago she started to stay at the very top of the tank between the glass and the heater. VERY small space. I thought she just wanted to be warmer. It seemed strange. 
5. Changed the water, and then went back a few minutes later she was on the floor of the tank upside down very still. I thought she was dead. I took her out and moved her into a bin of water.
6. She improved a little trying to swim right-side up for a few seconds at the top.
7. she is back to the bottom gasping very heavily. Trying to get back up but no luck.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Besides a little fin rot provable brought on from stress, looks fine. What happens if you've physically straighten the fish up? That can do amazing things for a fish. Other than that I'm at a loss. Changing water will probably kill it, heater will kill it, it's it a pretty sensitive state right now. If you could get it upright for a little you may see a turn around, other than that just keep an eye.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

What's worse is everything points to ammonia poisoning but that's impossible! Hopefully someone else chimes in with something I've missed.


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## Bunfoo (Jan 14, 2012)

Yes, she did have fin rot. She came to me that way though, I think my father said he got it from petsmart. 

I'll try to straighten her up and see what happens. Right now she's on the bottom, not moving at all other than to breath, very gasping. It also almost seems like her slime coat is gone? What would cause that? I haven't touched her at all up until just now and the only thing that really touched her is the net I used to move her into the bin. But when I felt her right now I do not feel a slime coat like I feel on my other fish.

This is really strange..


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## Bunfoo (Jan 14, 2012)

Could she have ad ammonia poisoning from the store? I only just noticed her eyes now, but I hadn't looked at her hard enough that I would have noticed. The film on her eyes is very faint- you can't even really see it in the photos. I only noticed because she was acting strange and I looked at her eyes which is where I've been told is an important place to look on cichlids when they have illness. 

If she did have ammonia poisoning, how long does it take to dissipate? Would the heater have made it worse? 

I still can't think of a reason why my brother's fishes would have died as well after using the same heater though.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Yeah fin rot wasn't a big deal at all. Fish shed their slime during stress. I'm trying to think of a fix. What do you condition the water with?


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Nope I've ruled out ammonia. It would be immediate. Heaters messed up for sure, just got to hope you get it all together. Is the tub of water fresh or water from the tank?


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## Bunfoo (Jan 14, 2012)

I use Prime to condition the water, but I have well water so usually I don't need it, but I use a half dose.

It is fresh water from the tap (well water) that I tried to match as close as possible to the temp of the tank water. I wasn't sure if the tank water was safe or not.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

I doubt the heater caused a problem. That fish is huge for a 5.5 gallon tank. It sounds like you kept dumping food in..... 

It takes big water changes to keep up with a fish like that in a new tank. In a 5.5 gallon I don't know that you could ever. 

If you're not going to test the water(knowing ammonia, for instance) we're grasping at straws.


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## Bunfoo (Jan 14, 2012)

She's actually only about an inch long. I was doing frequent water changes. I only fed as much as she would eat, today I added a little more than usual because I was trying to find something she would try to eat. 

I only have test strips(I don't have the liquid tests yet), the ammonia in the tank this morning was .25ppm, if I am using the strips right. I do know they are inaccurate though. I know this is higher than what it should be but it didn't seem like she was having a hard time in the tank until the heater was added. She would eat, swim, and patrol the tank just fine until I added the heater. She did already have the fin rot when I got her, but it did seem to be improving to me. 

I am fairly new to fish, but I just find it really strange to find that her symptoms would come on so suddenly and that the addition of the heater seems to have triggered it, which is why I was asking if maybe she already had ammonia poisoning, would the heater have triggered things to get worse or not. My brother's guppy tank was established (2+ years) and clean. I did water changes fairly frequently, I thought, and s/he was doing OK. It is only today that s/he had begun acting quite sick, and then very bad after the water change. 

If it wasn't the heater though, I really would like to know what I am doing wrong in this particular situation. The tank IS small, but I still don't think this would have happened so suddenly only after I added the heater.


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## Bunfoo (Jan 14, 2012)

No change in her condition yet, I do have to go though, and will try to post if any changes happen. In the mean time I will think of anything else besides the heater that I might have added or done.


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## Durgidog (Jan 16, 2012)

I would suggest buying API liquid tests for Ammonia and Nitrite to start. The strips are highly inaccurate and hard to read. Cloudy eyes in cichlids are generally indicative of poor water quality conditions, as has been mentioned. What are you feeding her? 

You sound convinced that it was the heater, how long after you got her did you add it to the tank? Did you have a separate thermometer in the tank, or did you just go by what the heater was set at for the temp reading? Were there other fish in the tank?

In your OP you mentioned that you "plopped" the JD in the tank when you got her - was she acclimated first? Do you treat your water for chloramine when you do a water change?


If the fish is from Petco that could be the problem.


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## HypnoticAquatic (Feb 17, 2010)

i kinda doubt that fish is only one inch just looks much bigger like 2.5inch + but whatever, a .25+ ammo level is enough to cause issues right away and i can say that its due to the lack of water volume for a fish that size, the heater isnt the issue unless you have some chemical or something on it leaching into the water (highly unlikely). really would like to see a measureing tape or something for reference in later pics it helps. 

you really need to post better info! for anyone to help out without just throwing blind answers at you. you say u did wc's how often/how much/ did u acclimate him how? are u treating for fin rot? if so how? there is just tons of things that without knowing provide less insight to a better answer for you.

if it is ammo you can do permanate damage to the fish .25+ is bad ive seen deaths at .25-.5 so it doesnt take much... and ill put my money on thats your main issue! need a larger tank 40g min imo he will get 8inch if you dont stunt him and a 5.5 will stunt him faster than u know. im kinda lost was this a guppy tank now housing your jd? or how long has this been up? there just to much lackin info to give correct advice :/ hope u dont take it the wrong way but were just grasping at air..


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## Bunfoo (Jan 14, 2012)

Sorry, I wasn't sure what info was relevant and I was supposed to post. I haven't had fish for long yet and nothing quite like this before. Yes, I floated her in the bag when I first got her for 45 minutes. She was in the tank for about a week and a half before I added the heater. And yes, you guys are right, she was a little bigger than I thought, but measures out at just under an inch & 1/2 from mouth to base of tail. She died last night around 11:50pm. My water doesn't have chlorine or ammonia so I only use a half dose of Prime when changing water. I was using a separate thermometer to measure the temperature. It was staying fairly constant at 78-79. 

How fast to symptoms usually show for ammonia poisoning at .25? She was doing fine in that tank for all of the other time I had her, and the water always tested at .25 (Though I don't think I tested after a water change) she only started acting strange once the heater was in. Could have heater have aggravated the symptoms of ammonia poisoning? My parents had a breeding pair of dempseys as a child so when she started to act strange I did take note almost right away, but I had figured she was just acclimating to the warmer water. It wasn't until she was not wanting to take food that I took a really hard look and noticed the film on her eyes. It was very light, but it was there. She hadn't ever refused food before, so that was strange.

I was feeding Ocean Nutrition Omni Flakes. My father bought them, they seemed pretty good and I feed ocean nutrition for my other tanks as well. I was also offering live foods. Mosquito larva, small red wrigglers & bloodworms were the live food she had eaten so far. I only fed as much as she would eat. If she left any to drop I would vacuum it out a while after she was done. 

I emptied the entire tank last night after she died and soaked in with boiling water. I refilled it with entirely new water and put two 1/2in goldfish. at around 4am I added the heater, and 2 hours later added one more 1/2 goldfish, as well as a pond snail.

This morning, all three of the fish were having trouble swimming, and if anything moved within a few feet of the tank they'd dart around very fast for a few seconds. The pond snail is dead, I can't say for sure if the goldfish tried to eat him or not but he was quite large. Fish were gasping at the surface then falling to the bottom of the tank, and then darting around if "spooked".

These fish all came from a tank that is a couple of months old and always reads ammonia at 0. How long would three 1/2 goldfish take to poison themselves in ammonia severely in 100% fresh water?

The tank I was actually only using for a plant tank. I DID have a guppy in it for about 3 days(She was dying),(Edit: I believe there was two? Weeks between the time the guppy was in and the JD.) but other than that the tank has only had plants. HC, microsword, hornwort, anachris, crypts, etc. The substrate is fluorite. I have been looking for the liquid test kit and usually go to town on tuesday, but as I live ~20 miles up a mountain and we just got a LOT of snow and ice, I won't be going down today.. There is a petsmart in town but they didn't have liquid tests in stock when I went there last.

Water changes were 3x a week 25% each and a 50% on saturdays. If it wasn't the heater, that is great, but I'd like to rule it out for sure before casting it off. It just seems too much a coincidental that she only began going downhill a few hours after the addition of the heater. I am not ruling out ammonia poisoning either, but I am wonder, if they may go hand in hand, and if the heater may have made any ammonia poisoning worse in some way?

Edit:

Okay doing some time checking. The guppy I had in the tank died on the 18th, and from that time till now nothing else has been in the tank. I had gotten 3 guppies who were housed in a different tank for two? days, at which point I got the heater back from my brother. We used the heater in THAT tank, at which point the guppies showed similar symptoms as the JD, minus the cloudy eyes and fin rot. When the other two died (Time between adding the heater and them dying was overnight, if I remember correctly) I moved the single female out of that tank and put her in this one. At the time I thought I had killed her with diy c02, but now that I think of it, she died after I added the same heater to this tank. After she died the heater wasn't used again, until the night before last.


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## Bunfoo (Jan 14, 2012)

You know what! I just remembered something. When I brought the heater home it came in a box of other things. There was a bottle of leaking cleaner in the same box. There may have been residue on the rubber parts of the heater.

I think that may have been it.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Please please please. Please stop putting fish in the tank. 

I really think you'd be well served to read up on "nitrogen cycle" and "fishless cycling". You can't set up a tank and in 4 hours have it stocked with fish. 

I've also, never in my life seen a goldfish that was only 1/2" long.


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## HypnoticAquatic (Feb 17, 2010)

I highly doubt it was the heater!! your adding new fish to a uncycled tank!! STOP read what you have to do befor to set up a tank correctly its not just adding water and fish, and taking all water out washing an putting new water and fish is what u are doing and is why you are killing your fish. your adding fish that are not suited for that small tank. STOP rushing things and read then do it correctly!! dont use the heater if you think is bad its that simple just think then do and take your time research first...


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## Bunfoo (Jan 14, 2012)

I am not adding any more fish..I actually put the goldfish in to see if they had any adverse reactions after I added in the heater, which they appeared to, but I had remembered that it may have come in contact with a chemical. I never intended to add any fish at all to this tank because I planned to use it to throw in plants that don't have a place for in my other tanks. 

And yes, sorry, that was a typo on my part. The goldfish were not half-inch, they were one and a half from mouth to tip of tail. I forgot to type a one in front of those. 

I have two other fully cycled tanks with healthy inhabitants. I do know what a nitrogen cycle, and fishless cycling are. Neither is possible with this tank, I don't have the equipment. I am not trying to put any fish in the tank at all. Right now it is empty entirely, not even substrate, other than plants and an airstone for water movement. I have no intentions of getting any other fish nor did I have any before, as it happens the fish was a gift and I simply wasn't prepared for it. I do know that the ammonia was high for the tank but she seemed to be OK until I could acquire a bigger tank. She was not having any problems that she did not already have until the heater was added, and I think I know why now. I am trying, but things happen and I probably did not make the best choices with what I had at the time. I never intended to get any more fish and so I didn't buy any more equipment than I needed. Had it not snowed yesterday I would have been picking up what I needed then. Unfortunately not everything went so well and I ended up killing the fish trying to make the tank a little more comfortable while she had to be in there.

It is my fault and I am sorry for that.


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## thechibi (Jan 20, 2012)

I would invest in 1) a test kit 2) some seachem stability and/or prime and a good fish book.

I'm sorry that this ended badly.  But things like this are why I suggest gift certs to a pet store over a gift pet.


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## HypnoticAquatic (Feb 17, 2010)

its all part of this everyone has done stupid mistakes just takes time learning what we did and how to fix it so we dont keep doing it, ammo can attack fast as you have seen it just depends on where the levels were at an how close it was to pushing it over once its there it can go downhill very fast and anyother issues just compound the problems making it so much harder to fix. 

if you still think your heater might cause or have issues id really clean it with bleach(rinse with prime/water) or h2o2 and then use that tank with a feeder guppy or something then if it dies within a few days u know that heater needs to be trashed if not its fine. i wouldnt use the heater until its tested though but thats me. if u do use that 5g tank for plants get some sand an have the stems in there so they dont grow sideways it only takes less than a day for them to start gettin diformed from trying to grow virtical.good luck


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## Bunfoo (Jan 14, 2012)

I do have Prime for the water, I'll be picking up the liquid test kits as soon as petsmart lets me know when it gets delivered.

The goldfish were intended feeders for another pet of mine so I tested on them but removed them as soon as they started to act slightly strange since I didn't quite want to just kill them off. They're fine now so I think I will just try and see if I can get a replacement for it, otherwise I am just going to trash it. The only other tank that requires a heater is my tetras and they have an old heater that works perfectly so I'll stick with that one for now. 

I tried flourite in the tank but it just keeps on putting out dirty water no matter how much I rinse it. The only plants in there needing substrate right now are two small stems of moneywort but everything has been weighted so it should grow up straight. Everything else are column feeders as far as I know. It's mostly hornwort and some anubias petite, with clippings of various other plants. 

And yes, I do tell people to never, ever, buy me pets of any kind for this exact reason...I do not always know how to take care of them properly and feel pretty bad when something goes wrong. I do feel quite bad for the fish but as she is already gone there is not much to do about it now. 

I didn't think ammonia could go from fine to dead in less than a day. I had always assumed usually they show signs slowly that I thought I would have spotted. In this case I was too late to notice the cloudy eyes. I'll be happier to get my test kit and see exactly where my other two tanks stand. So far I have not lost any fish from the other two, and hopefully it will stay so. 

Since she is already dead, I'll stop posting here, but if anyone has any other advice for me you are more than welcome to send me a PM and I will read and respond.


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