# 20 Long Rock Pile-Update--5/21/2012--Still slow growth...New Filter



## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Newest PIC:









_*Please note that I am really bad with updating my journals consistently. I try my best but can't always get to it when I am home and I am often not home when my lights are on.*_

I have had a tank of some sort in my bed room for quite awhile. It is the tank I see least and care about least. I was dumping plants into this tank out of my 29 gallon and just not really enjoying where it was headed.

I had a bunch of rocks and some emmersed grass, I believe to be Dwarf Hair Grass. I bought it for something and never used it so I grew it outside. I figured this was a perfect time to do a new scape, especially because it doesn't have any inhabitants. 


This is my second attempt at a natural style tank, both have been rock oriented. I am hoping that it looks like a mountain, given that I had limited materials. Hopefully it doesn't look like a pile of rocks. I am not 100% happy as is but told myself I cannot keep tweaking it until I look at it for awhile.

Anyway, I am not sure DHG is the right plant to begin with. It will cover up some of the hardscape, I just don't know if that is good or bad. I may take out a few rocks, I defineatly don't like where a few are positioned. I am doing a dry start to do my best to hold a slope. I was thinking about doing HC but I have used that plant a lot and want to try something new. Glosso really wasn't what I wanted. I just decided, why not, I have some and it is already emmeresed. Hopefully it turns out well.

Lastly, I have not totally finished the de-rimming. The rim is off but the silicone is still on. No problem, I can take my time now that I am doing a dry start.

Specs:
Tank-20 Long (top rim removed)
Light- Coralife T5NO 2x18
Filter-Aquaclear 50 w/ Aquaclear 20 motor/impeller
Heater-Unsure if it will be heated

Plants:
Dwarf Hair Grass

Not sure if I will add anything or not


Inhabitants:
Not sure if I am going to do fish, shrimp or both. I will only have one species of either most likely. 



Pics:


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## sayurasem (Jun 17, 2011)

awesome rock arrangement!


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## mscichlid (Jul 14, 2008)

Nice rocks! Can we see a full tank shot from the front? I like the layout alot.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

mscichlid said:


> Nice rocks! Can we see a full tank shot from the front? I like the layout alot.


The first pic is pretty much as close as i can get to a FTS. My bed is in the way. I would take a picture of it in the room but I would have to expose how messy I am as a person 


Thanks for the compliments on the arrangement. I am not in love with it but I don't hate it. I have a lot of trouble with hardscapes. Not only is it my 2nd "natural" style tank, it is my second tank with a hardscape as well.


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## hydrophyte (Mar 1, 2009)

Nice rocks. Where did you get those rocks?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

hydrophyte said:


> Nice rocks. Where did you get those rocks?


I have had these rocks for years now but I bought them at a local rock yard. They were 5 cents a pound. Not bad lol, I have probably bought about 250 lbs of it over the years for various things, they always laugh at me when they ring me up. I don't think anyone ever even picks out of the pile besides me, they are in a big stall that they use a front loader to move them.


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## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Great hardscape! What plants are you planning to use?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

ghotifish said:


> Great hardscape! What plants are you planning to use?


Right now, just Dwarf Hair Grass, or what I think it is. I am also trying some Helanthium tenellum to see how it works. I really don't know what I want to use, I just had the DHG so I started with that. I think it's height could make it look really good, or really bad. HC would have been my first choice but I am kind of sick of it. Outside of HC, I want to use a grassy plant.

Now, I don't know what I may add after that. I may keep it as just one plant, I may add on. Too early right now to make up my mind. I don't see much going on plant wise though.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

After a big of research it seems like Dwarf Hair Grass may grow to high. It seems like you can trim it down but will that keep it low for any good period of time? Or am I going to be constantly going to be constantly trimming? I have never used this plant so I have no experience.

I have some very short grass I do not know what it is called but seems to max out at about 1 in. It is lighter in color but otherwise a similar plant, very thin grass like plant. I also have a ton of E. tenellus from another tank. Again, it is also lighter in color. I doubt it will get much red coloring, if any, under this light and no co2, not sure if I would like that or not.

I really like the color of the DHG but I don't want something that is going to "out grow" the hard scape, or require constant trimming to the point it becomes hard to maintain the scape.

Any opinions?


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## jtse (Mar 25, 2011)

Great Stuff... I just derimmed my 20L as well and was looking for a light setup. I like the look of your light. Is that the same as the Aqueon Corilife? Where did you get the metal brackets for it... It's got a really good look to it.


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## fusiongt (Nov 7, 2011)

Very nice rock arrangement. I'm curious, how will you keep the PH down? With that type of substrate and that many rocks I imagine it'll go up to 8 without any co2 injection. If that's the case, African Cichlids might do well =)


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

jtse said:


> Great Stuff... I just derimmed my 20L as well and was looking for a light setup. I like the look of your light. Is that the same as the Aqueon Corilife? Where did you get the metal brackets for it... It's got a really good look to it.


It is made by Coralife but I believe Aqueon sells and identical fixture under their brand now. Here is how I made the bracket- http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1139161-post11.html
I had a rim on the time so I added some thin strips of high density foam on each side after I derimmed the tank.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

fusiongt said:


> Very nice rock arrangement. I'm curious, how will you keep the PH down? With that type of substrate and that many rocks I imagine it'll go up to 8 without any co2 injection. If that's the case, African Cichlids might do well =)


I doubt I will have particuarly hard water. I have used this substrate and these rocks before and it didn't effect my PH. I have not decided on inhabitants yet but I doubt I will have to worry about anything, except for anything that requires very soft water.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I forgot to add but I replaced the dwarf hair grass. I don't know what I had but it looks like Japanese hair grass. This stuff didn't get taller than about an inch in the last tank I had it in. It seems to have transitioned to emmersed and throwing out a few runners. I hope to update soon, not sure if I will be out of town for the next few days or not.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Here are some "updates". It isn't really an update, I just switch out the ground cover from DHG to what I believe is Japanese Hair Grass, not really sure what it is but it looks very similar. It is much shorter and should fit the hard scape better. It is sending out runners like crazy but they are extremely short and very hard to capture in pictures. It has adapted to emersed growth quickly so I hope it starts to fill in. 

I am only waiting to fill until it has a strong root system to try to maintain my slopes. However, I have not decided on stocking and can't really afford what I want so I may wait to fill for awhile.

I am thinking about ditching my 29 gallon. If I do so, I may try to move the tank to where it sits (same footprint so all my lights and stand will work perfectly). If so, it will become a high tech tank. If anyone has suggestions on how to move it, I would love to hear them. It is only 20 ft away but I would rather not redo the rocks. It seems a bit to heavy to move on it's own, especially since I derimmed the top. I am guessing it is at least 100lbs with the rock and substrate. 

Anyway...Pics:


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## tharsis (Oct 9, 2009)

Sweet! I really really like the arrangement, it is very pleasing. It is going to look great with plants.


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## Todlich (Aug 24, 2005)

Cant wait to see more.After seeing your other thread on your Low Tech 10g.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Anyone have some shrimp advice? Red is my very least favorite color and only RCS/CRS have been local to me for a long time. Now I have access to some Orange Bee Shrimp locally (at least I think that is what they are). I don't know exactly what I want but I want something that isn't red, is hardy, and very easy to breed. Price is a big factor. Not sure it will be a shrimp tank but I am leaning that way.


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## doncityz (May 17, 2011)

I always like long tanks.... can't wait to see how this one fill up... woooo!!


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So, update time. The dry start is going really slow. You probably can't even really tell their is growth in the pictures. About half of the grass has yellowed but is now putting out new runners. Some has stayed green and is still putting out runners. They are really small and don't make much of an impact. I have also been breaking large clumps up, so many of the smaller clumps don't show up in pics.

The only thing I have changed is I added a heat mat. It has increased the humidity but has had no impact on growth, that I can tell. It is a good "safety net" as I don't need to spray as often and I am not home a lot. You can see this in the first picture, I wiped the glass down for the rest. 

I also added a 3 watt LED on a goose neck from Ikea. It clamps on and has some sort of optics so it looks really good. It is also really easy to position in different ways to get different effects. I tried it on a filled 20 Long and it looks great. It shimmers really good and doesn't have "hot spots". My only complaint is it is a bit yellow, which actually looks pretty natural, but I wish it was a bit more white. In the last pictures you can see it's real color, and the color I wish it was. It's $14.99 at Ikea. 

Lastly, I bought an electrical timer. Only reason for this is it is in my bedroom and I have trouble getting to bed. Even though my mechanical timer is really quiet, it often makes it hard to sleep. $20 well spent HAHA.

I am not in a rush to fill but I think it is going to take awhile. I need this to be fairly planted before I fill to keep anything resembling the slopes that are there now. Hopefully breaking up the clumps will help get this going, the roots are deep when I pull things out. There just isn't enough coverage.

Anyway, on to the pictures...

How it looks normally:









How it looks after wiping down the glass for pics:









Left side:









Right side (as best I can with my bed in the way)









New runners, you can see how small they are, especially the two groups closest to the middle









Top, no noticeable growth but it's there









With moon light (it's not as orange)










Messing with camera settings, this would be the perfect color


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I have pretty much decided that this will be a shrimp only tank, at least at the beginning. I am having a bit of trouble deciding. Maybe people can chime in.

I know I don't want CRS. I don't know why, they don't appeal to me. I have kept RCS and had great luck with them, they are an option. Fire reds would be even better if I choose Red. I do like blue pearls but I don't know how they would look in a tank like this.

I am really leaning toward something yellow or orange. My LFS has some Orange shrimp that look awsome but are $5 each, if I buy in bulk. I don't really want to spend that there as they don't always have the healthiest stock. I am looking for something hardy and easy to breed. They would start in this tank but will end up in others. Any suggestions?


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## dragonsong93 (Nov 25, 2011)

This looks pretty awesome! Since you don't like the color red, why not try some crystal black shrimp? I've got some myself and they are pretty cool, they'd stand out well too because they still have the bright white stripes on them.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

dragonsong93 said:


> This looks pretty awesome! Since you don't like the color red, why not try some crystal black shrimp? I've got some myself and they are pretty cool, they'd stand out well too because they still have the bright white stripes on them.


Thanks for the complement.

I don't mind red shrimp, I just have done the RCS thing and want to try something new. I actually dislike CBS more than CRS, I don't know, I just don't like that species for whatever reason. The red, orange, yellow color spectrum appeals to me most, not because it's my favorite color, I just feel like it would compliment the scape and fish I keep in other tanks, and eventually in this, if I keep fish.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

When I replaced my timer with a digital one, I upped my photo period to 14 hours. I am now getting emersed algae. I had a bit of brown algae at the front substrate because I don't always keep the water level low enough when I know I won't be home. Now I have what looks to be both GSA and BGA on the rocks. I don't mind the GSA but hopefully the BGA will not survive long term. The last thing I want on startup is BGA. 

It doesn't surprise me that it can exist in these conditions, the rocks are always wet from the humidity but it kind of surprises me how quickly it established. It was only about 3 days. This means I will have to be very careful with my photo period. I have already been successful with this light but only with 6-8 hours on. However, I had a much bigger variety of plants, including many fast growing species. Hopefully I will not have issues with just the hair grass.


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## pagemee (Nov 29, 2011)

It's beautiful. Where'd you find your rocks? Hhttp://www.plantedtank.net/forums/tank-journals-photo-album/158004-petite-planted-pretty.html help me with mine?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

This isn't much of an update. Growth is steady but really slow. I am hoping one day it will really start gaining some ground. There has been a long transition to emersed so I think it there is a chance for it to start growing more quickly soon. It may just continue to be slow. Still deciding on what shirmp to keep but it's still going to be awhile. I may setup a 10 gallon to get started though. 

Here are just 2 pics, again, not anything you would really notice:


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

do you happen to know what type of rocks those are? planning on hitting up a rock yard soon. i want something with similar character. thanks... and i like the arrangement as well. looking good.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

frrok said:


> do you happen to know what type of rocks those are? planning on hitting up a rock yard soon. i want something with similar character. thanks... and i like the arrangement as well. looking good.


I don't know. It may have had "green" in the name, I can't remember if they were these or other stones I have that had green in the name. They don't look green at all though, they are grey.

I see them everywhere. They really aren't attractive from a far. You really have to pick each one out. If I just randomly piled up 500lbs, I probably would only use a fraction of that. Even with over 200lb total, I don't like about 1/2 of the ones I picked myself lol.


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## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

talin that looks pretty awesome man... can't wait to see it grown in!



Sent from my iPhone


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

thefisherman said:


> talin that looks pretty awesome man... can't wait to see it grown in!
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


What plant is in the middle of your tank in your sig pic? Looks awesome.


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## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

thanks man... its stargrass 


Sent from my iPhone


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

thefisherman said:


> thanks man... its stargrass
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


The plant above it. Looks like some sort of Rotala maybe?


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## Chaos_Being (May 18, 2010)

Off to a good start! I'm digging that rockscape.


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## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

talontsiawd said:


> The plant above it. Looks like some sort of Rotala maybe?


oh... ya they are a mixed bunch from
my nano. macrandas (red and green) and indicas i think 


Sent from my iPhone


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

thefisherman said:


> oh... ya they are a mixed bunch from
> my nano. macrandas (red and green) and indicas i think
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


It definitely is the Rotala indica that I am loving. I used to have some, no idea where it went lol. Actually, I used to have all 3 of those, never had good luck with the macranda. Really nice tank BTW.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Chaos_Being said:


> Off to a good start! I'm digging that rockscape.


Thank you. My last rockscape, I spent like 5 days tweaking. I went to a beach in the area here (Stinson Beach) a lot this summer and it had a lot of rock cropping out of the hills/mountain as well as on the actual coast by the beach. That was my inspiration. This took me like an hour or two, mainly with the substrate. I just put a rock here, put a rock there, didn't move stuff. Way happier than other tries and spent a fraction of the time.


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## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

talontsiawd said:


> It definitely is the Rotala indica that I am loving. I used to have some, no idea where it went lol. Actually, I used to have all 3 of those, never had good luck with the macranda. Really nice tank BTW.


very kind words thank you! definatley still a work in progress. Those guys only recently woke up in my tank... they seem stunted from the move, now they seem to be growing every day. my walichi however
loves getting moved amd hacked lol

i'll be pruning in a week or so. I am definately going to thin out the herd. you are welcome to an assortment of stems if you like. just pm if ur interested 



Sent from my iPhone


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

talontsiawd said:


> It is made by Coralife but I believe Aqueon sells and identical fixture under their brand now. Here is how I made the bracket- http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1139161-post11.html
> I had a rim on the time so I added some thin strips of high density foam on each side after I derimmed the tank.


I have this same light that I'm using (using some Ikea shelf brackets resting on the top of the tank right now) on a rimless tank I just got and I love your brackets. This may be a dumb question, but what is OSH?:icon_neut



> 4 Clamps found in foutain section of OSH for reducing water flow through tubing


Btw, your tank looks great!


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

trixella said:


> This may be a dumb question, but what is OSH?:icon_neut


Orchard Supply Hardware. It's a hardware chain.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So this tank is going to be filled earlier than I had hoped. It will also have Cardinal Tetras. It's not idea and I could use some help if anyone care to read- http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/fish/158859-quick-stocking-help-getting-rid-stocked.html

On the flip side, I get a sweet filter. It will have an Eheim 2234. That makes me want to do an inline heater really badly but it wouldn't be hidden from site, just from the tank. I will have some other equipment for sale so maybe I will have the funds. I actually am thinking CO2 now, I know how slow this stuff grows under water. Not that the dry start has been quick. 

I may fill as soon as tonight, I don't know how soon I can get pictures though, I have a bunch of stuff to do in the following days and family in town. I think all Cardinals are going to look sweet though, my tank that is coming down was like this and was really cool.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Is there no cap on the dirt substrate?

Whats the reasoning for doing the emersed start here? Hair grass is not tough to keep down...


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Gatekeeper said:


> Is there no cap on the dirt substrate?
> 
> Whats the reasoning for doing the emersed start here? Hair grass is not tough to keep down...


This isn't a dirt tank. Dry start is because I have some aggressive slopes and hope to keep them as intact as possible. Even though the growth is slow, it still seems faster than the last tank I had this plant in, with no CO2. I don't know what type of plant it is, but I don't know if you noticed that I switched out the DHG. This stuff, which I believe is Japanese Hair Grass, has grown incredibly slow for me in general.


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## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

talontsiawd said:


> So this tank is going to be filled earlier than I had hoped. It will also have Cardinal Tetras. It's not idea and I could use some help if anyone care to read- http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/fish/158859-quick-stocking-help-getting-rid-stocked.html
> 
> On the flip side, I get a sweet filter. It will have an Eheim 2234. That makes me want to do an inline heater really badly but it wouldn't be hidden from site, just from the tank. I will have some other equipment for sale so maybe I will have the funds. I actually am thinking CO2 now, I know how slow this stuff grows under water. Not that the dry start has been quick.
> 
> I may fill as soon as tonight, I don't know how soon I can get pictures though, I have a bunch of stuff to do in the following days and family in town. I think all Cardinals are going to look sweet though, my tank that is coming down was like this and was really cool.


i'm excited for u bro... i read ur thread and i feel like its safe to add fish to both ur tanks:

1) 29g - your 29 thats been up and running i believe is fully established. (that and you've got an established 2215 running)! i say bring it on and dont worry too about increasing bio-load. of course the system will balance itself with new fish, but chemistry won't swing to the point that it will harm ur fish. 

2) 20g Long - if your DSM has been up for 6 weeks minimum, i would say there is enough beneficial bacteria on yiur substrate to safely add fish. i would however sees your new filter with gunk from the 2215

bottom line i think your good to go. the only thing i would definitely recommend is daily monitoring of water parameters for any spikes or swings in pH. 








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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So I didn't have to transfer my fish as I thought. My girlfriend decided she could not part with the tank. I am super happy, though I will not have a canister filter/inline heater for the foreseeable future. 

However, I had to add more water than I wanted each time for the dry start as I am never home. Between that and the humidity/photoperiod, I am growing all sorts of algae emmersed. I have brown algae, GDA, BGA, and I may have some BBA (I can't tell but I doubt it). I may have some staghorn or other algae. Because my plants are not growing quickly, I decided I am just going to see what happens. SO, I FILLED IT. It looks sick but I can't get good pictures in the daytime.

UPDATE will be SOON.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

As said, updates....I couldn't get my camera to take as good of pictures as I wanted. I just use a cheapo point and shoot (I mean cheap, not a point and shoot that is worse than better camera's, a point and shoot that doesn't compare to decent point and shoot). 

As you can see, a lot of algae, the dry start didn't stop that. I am just going to see what happens. There is some fish food to start the cycle, I doubt it will be much of one, my filters have been on another tank for 2 months, used substrate, and a long time of having some water. If BGA can be prolific, I assume there is some bacteria for my future shrimp.

Anyway, not great pics but here it is. It will take forever to grow out so I am rethinking if I will keep my only plant:




















As you can see, not much growth, there is but not much


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## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

i think the rock pile looks great man. why were you getting algae emersed? 

what foreground plants are you thinking of bro? plant and forget types or high maintenance? :O


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

thefisherman said:


> i think the rock pile looks great man. why were you getting algae emersed?
> 
> what foreground plants are you thinking of bro? plant and forget types or high maintenance? :O
> 
> ...


I think I got emersed algae from the combination of a long photo period and high humidity from the heat mat I had under the tank. It has been there for awhile but I didn't want to treat it without water in the tank because I have never done it and didn't know if I could damage the plants using excel or h2o2 since there was so little water compared to a full tank. 

The only thing that bothers me is the BGA, so I am nuking it with maracyn. The reason for that is, though it has never happened to me, I don't want to crash my biofiltration after adding livestock. 

The only plant I was going to use is the whatever species of hairgrass I have. I know it grows low and slowly. The only problem is I don't have much of it. I really only saw a tiny bit of growth in the dry start. Hopefully it will grow better in time, I know it grew really slow in another 20L I have with no CO2. I may put some in my 29 (with CO2) and see what the difference in growth is.

If I decide I am not feeling this plant, I may go with HC, HM, or Glosso. HC would be my first choice but even though I have had luck without high light or CO2, I didn't have much luck with it on this particular tank before tear down. Slow growing is best, even though I am impatient as this is going to be a pain to trim so being impatient for it fill will work out better than my impatience for spending the time trimming lol. 

I do have some more of this plant (not much) in another tank if I need to add and know where to get more (pricey) if things are moving too slow. I really plan to have one species at first, outside of some Java moss I didn't plan to come back.


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

Could have just used H2O2 for the BGA...it would've killed it right off. Cheaper than Maracyn, too. No worries about damaging anything emersed...just mist it with a spray bottle if you're worried about it. I actually like the way the tank looks and think it will be amazing once everything grows in. More flow + nitrates should prevent future BGA. I personally run a Koralia Nano 240 in my 20L for more flow and I've got ~40ppm nitrates out of the tap.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

freph said:


> Could have just used H2O2 for the BGA...it would've killed it right off. Cheaper than Maracyn, too. No worries about damaging anything emersed...just mist it with a spray bottle if you're worried about it. I actually like the way the tank looks and think it will be amazing once everything grows in. More flow + nitrates should prevent future BGA. I personally run a Koralia Nano 240 in my 20L for more flow and I've got ~40ppm nitrates out of the tap.


I had a bunch of Maracyn and it did the trick, but I did use some H2O2 as well. I now am limited to brown algae (expected) and some hair algae. I am not on a mission to kill algae in this tank as it will be food for my potential shrimp, but BGA and BBA are things I deal with quick. 

Anyway, I wouldn't say I am happy with the progress, whatever grass I have grows so slow, but I am putting some in my high light 29 to try to keep things going. I also put some HM and another grass, just to see how they look if I change my mind. Again, I don't know what type of plant I have but I do have a supply if it is too slow in some other tanks (not much though). We will see.


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## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

matt i just wanted to say thank you for the blyxa brutha, they're friggin awesome!  already planted, gonna post some pics soon! 

regardinh foreground, i've got some beast-like star repens and limno mini avail. say the word and they're urs 


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## green_valley (Sep 14, 2011)

I hope those algae will go away. Scape is awesome.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

thefisherman said:


> matt i just wanted to say thank you for the blyxa brutha, they're friggin awesome!  already planted, gonna post some pics soon!
> 
> regardinh foreground, i've got some beast-like star repens and limno mini avail. say the word and they're urs
> 
> ...


I really want short grass for this scape. I may have another place for it but right now, I am on plant overload lol. I will get at you in the future. Hopefully you have some. I do apprciate the offer and glad the blyxa is to your liking.




green_valley said:


> I hope those algae will go away. Scape is awesome.


Algae is not great but much better than it was in the last pics. BGA is gone, GDA is gone. Some brown algae and some sort of hair algae is left. Just got some shrimp, I don't know what kind, waiting to color up and take some pictures. They are starting to do work on what algae remains.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Here is a minor update. I got some shrimp without researching, they look cool but will not breed in freshwater so I don't know if they will stay in this tank or not. Thank you for everyone who helped identify them in the inverts forum.

I will be adding more down the road but blew most of my shrimp budget on these guys so it will be awhile. I may just go with RCS though now, or the yellow version of them. I wanted something more "exotic" but I do know how easy RCS are. That or Tangerine Tigers. I enjoy shrimp I can get locally as I can add new adults with no hassle so we will see.

Outside of that, a lot of the algae has subsided. I am not actively getting rid of it, other than the BGA. I did put some HM and some other grass in, just to see how that may look as I have much more of each if I decide the hair grass I have is growing too slow. 

I am seeing more growth than the pictures show. I have a bunch of tiny runners that are not showing up in pictures. It will still be a long time before this fills in but it's better than my camera can pick up. I may do DIY CO2 for a period of time, just to speed things up.

Pics:

Shrimp:










Tank:


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## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

thats a kool lookin shrimp bro... RCS is pretty easy, do you mean CRS perhaps? these guys are pricey and i hear are very picky about water parameters. 

are you feeding the shrimpies anything, or are they just grazing on algae?


Sent from my iPhone


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

thefisherman said:


> thats a kool lookin shrimp bro... RCS is pretty easy, do you mean CRS perhaps? these guys are pricey and i hear are very picky about water parameters.
> 
> are you feeding the shrimpies anything, or are they just grazing on algae?
> 
> ...


No, just regular Red Cherry Shrimp, the guys nobody seems to like anymore. I have had great luck with them and can get them cheap locally. There is a yellow variety I am more interested in but can't find locally. I do really like Tangerine Tigers though, that's what I really want, and made me interested in the shrimp I bought. I was hoping to get an Orange shrimp that breeds for not to much money, just didn't do my research. 

It sounds like the shrimp I did buy can get pretty large which is cool. I don't want that for this tank but they may fit well in another. 

I am just letting the scavenge for the first few days, then I will see how they do with algae tabs.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Sooo....I am at a bit of a crossroad now. The hair grass I have (I think Japanese Hair Grass) just is not growing at all. It's so slow I don't think it will ever fill in. As much as I want a grassy tank, I also want low tech. I am now looking for a new foreground as I can't wait years for this to grow in. Lack of plant mass has started algae cycles as well (threw some stems in for now) so I just don't have a choice. 


Here are my options:



*Echinodorus tenellus*.

I already have some in. It is growing really slow as well. I want to see how big the runners are as they should be much smaller than what came out of my other tank. This plant is cool when it gets a bit of red in it but I will only use it if it grows low enough. I am seriously considering pulling my foreground in my 29 so I could have this going really quickly if I like what my "trial" piece does. Excuse the algae in the picture.












*Hemianthus Micranthemoides (HM)*.

The scale will be a bit off with this. I also don't have much to start with. Though the scale (leaf size) may be a bit too big, it will be the easiest option and a great solution for a low tech tank. I can be a pain to trim but I can get the plant to carpet in any situation. I just can't let it over grow. Here it is a bit overgrown for effect in my old 29.











*Hemianthus Callitrichoides (HC).*

This plant seems about right for the tank. I have two issues. First, I don't have any. Second, I have done this plant a bunch of times and I am kind of sick of it. I don't know that it will do well in this tank either. I have grow it in similar light as show in the picture with no CO2. This is my last choice because it is iffy in the conditions, will grow slow, and if successful, it will be the hardest to maintain.











I would love to hear any opinions. I listed plants from my first to last choice. I know there are other options but I am trying to use something I already have or can easily get. I don't want to start with something that I cannot easily propagate either, I have never bought more than a pot or bunch of plants, I let them do what they do best which is grow. I am not going to buy 10 pots of HC, for example, to speed up the process.


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## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

hey talon... i say stick with the grass if you're sick of HC (which u can buy from FAN thru Gordon Richards fyi)... i've had e. tennelous and they are one crazy weed. i couldn't control their growth and they were shooting runners with babies everywhere. i've since remove them from my 20L.

i think a mix of grass types would look kool with longer wavy types in the background. i just can't remember their names, but i will post them when i do a little research 


Sent from my iPhone


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

thefisherman said:


> hey talon... i say stick with the grass if you're sick of HC (which u can buy from FAN thru Gordon Richards fyi)... i've had e. tennelous and they are one crazy weed. i couldn't control their growth and they were shooting runners with babies everywhere. i've since remove them from my 20L.
> 
> i think a mix of grass types would look kool with longer wavy types in the background. i just can't remember their names, but i will post them when i do a little research
> 
> ...


Trust me, E. tenellus grows like crazy in my 29 with high light and CO2. Once it gets going, carpet in a week. However, without CO2, I have found this plant to slow in growth tremendously. I am talking like 10x slower. I was shocked how slow it grew in a little 5 gallon where everything else was still growing like a weed (no CO2 either). 

I do have some in, it's been there for a few weeks and just is throwing out a runner. I am testing this to verify it won't grow like a weed. I really am going to have trouble trimming and this can grow over the rocks so that could be problematic if it is fast growing and I don't catch it in time with all the rocks.


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## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

ya my chainsword momma is the only one i keep in my little nano. low light low tech no ferts no co2 and shaded by a carpet of duckweed... lets just say she's calmed down lol.

bro my needle leaf rotala is ready for you... say the word and shes goin back to cali yo!! 


Sent from my iPhone


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

the only foreground plant that I think would do well in low light is dwarf sag, ime. I have done research on every other and they all either grow too slow, too tall or don't spread. I have another that I want to try staurogyne repens. but I don't have enough right now to cover enough space. So i am growing it emersed until I have enough to get it started. I'll let you know how it goes. my dawrf sag grows so well it spreads very quickly. no c02, no ferts and low-med light. Good luck with finding something.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

thefisherman said:


> bro my needle leaf rotala is ready for you... say the word and shes goin back to cali yo!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


"THE WORD" lol. I could use me some of that. Hopefully my stems will be ready soon (propagating them right now).


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

frrok said:


> the only foreground plant that I think would do well in low light is dwarf sag, ime. I have done research on every other and they all either grow too slow, too tall or don't spread. I have another that I want to try staurogyne repens. but I don't have enough right now to cover enough space. So i am growing it emersed until I have enough to get it started. I'll let you know how it goes. my dawrf sag grows so well it spreads very quickly. no c02, no ferts and low-med light. Good luck with finding something.


I am afraid dawrf sag will grow way too tall. I can say with confidence that HM will spread quickly enough for me. HC may or may not. The HC in the picture I posted was in a non CO2 tank of mine but had higher light (I think). Many non low light plants do fine in low light, it's just about how fast they grow. I don't mind slow, my current grass is on pause lol.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

talontsiawd said:


> I am afraid dawrf sag will grow way too tall. I can say with confidence that HM will spread quickly enough for me. HC may or may not. The HC in the picture I posted was in a non CO2 tank of mine but had higher light (I think). Many non low light plants do fine in low light, it's just about how fast they grow. I don't mind slow, my current grass is on pause lol.


Ahh ok. Maybe I should try some HM. The slow growth is killing me also. As soon I get a job and have some extra cash I'm going to try co2.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I figured it was time for an update on this. I got sick of the slow growth but wasn't ready to give up. I did the unthinkable and went DIY CO2. Nothing wrong with that I just thought I would never go back. 

I just did a simple 2 bottle setup, check valve, piece of BBQ skewer as a diffuser into my AC 20. Last time I was constantly trying to seek out the best recipe and spent a lot of time and effort. This time, I am just doing it the same way, every time, swapping out the bottles every 2 weeks, or when I remember. I don't need CO2 to prevent algae so I am really not concerned so much. 

Secondly, I am getting really sick of my Aquaclear filters. They are probably 6 years old now, maybe 5. I don't think they are bad filters but without properly maintaining them, they are a bit loud for me. This is in my bedroom and I have issues getting to sleep in dead silence, any noise can keep me up. I am thinking about saving up for a bigger Eheim for my 29 (2217 or likely an equivalent ECCO series. Not sure when/if that will happen. I would rather get pressurized CO2 for the money but sleeping is kind of important. 

That said, growth has really improved with the DIY CO2. Not sure how much of a difference you can see in the pictures but it is dramatic. Not that it is going to just fill in crazy fast but it is much better. I did try some HM and some E. tenellus and those took off like weeds when I added DIY CO2. Enough so I had to pull them out. I am not giving up but we will see how things go. 

Lastly, my camera sucks, my photography skills suck, and I didn't clean the glass. The stems are not planted in back, just needed a place to put them. If anyone has something to trade, PM me. I have some L. aromatica, Blyxa, and Rotala rotundifolia (I believe). 

Anyway, here are some pics:


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## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

talon did you consider turning this into a crypt only tank? i mean if you wanted a plant and forget type plant i can visualize alot of rooting rosette species plants to contrast the hardscape... they're not weedy at all (at least my crypts aren't) 


- thefisherman


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

thefisherman said:


> talon did you consider turning this into a crypt only tank? i mean if you wanted a plant and forget type plant i can visualize alot of rooting rosette species plants to contrast the hardscape... they're not weedy at all (at least my crypts aren't)
> 
> 
> - thefisherman


To be honest, I have never owned a crypt species, to my knowledge lol. So, no, I have not. Pretty much every plant I own I have purchased locally so I just buy what looks cool. I have never bought plants online, I only trade with people on occasion. I can't say their are no stores that sell crypts around here but I have yet to see a crypt species that I have to have, nothing against crypts, I just don't see a lot. Maybe I will look online and see what is out.

However, I really enjoyed my first tank that only had one plant species. It is easier to deal with and that is what I want but there is just something that is so much more tranquil. It isn't that it's all green, it's one shade of green. Add one species of shrimp and it's just relaxing.

I honestly don't even mind the slow growth that much. If I am home all day, I may look at my 29 gallon for a few hours a day, sometimes up to 1 hour in a sitting, this, I may catch a glimpse of this tank on an average day, then look over it when I haven't been home in a few days (I don't live with my GF but I more than halfway live with her in reality). I am home all day a lot too, I am a music producer and work from home if I am not going to the real studio or other event. My 29 is in my studio, that's why it gets so much more love lol.

But yeah, I am planning to keep it simple. I have decided if growth becomes frustratingly so, I am going to suck it up and do HC again, still keep it only one species. My only fear is that this won't fill in before I have to move lol. I can't easily move the tank, I think it's only 10-12 gallons of actual water.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

I really like the rock layout.
Are you having trouble getting your carpet to grow?

Is there any livestock in the tank yet? 
Hairgrass grows very fast in a drystart.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Chlorophile said:


> I really like the rock layout.
> Are you having trouble getting your carpet to grow?
> 
> Is there any livestock in the tank yet?
> Hairgrass grows very fast in a drystart.


I actually don't know what the species of grass is but I replaced the DHG from my first post with something else. It's growing, but very slowly. It actually picked up quit a bit since adding DIY CO2 but still very slow. I had considered replacing it but I like it and will just be patient, very patient lol.

I have a few shrimp in there. They were just labeled "orange shrimp" and I found they were similar to Amano shrimp and don't breed. But, fortunately, 2 turned out to be RCS (one male and one female too). They haven't breed yet. I may try to get some more "exotic" shrimp in the future but I don't really have money to dump into this tank right now.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So....long time, no update. I really got behind on my DIY CO2. I was initially injecting it into my Aquaclear 20 I had on but it was too loud. I started using a diffuser but it needed to much pressure so my CO2 would only work for a week. When I disconnected the diffuser and put it back into my Aquaclear, it would still go for another week but again, I couldn't handle the noise (in my bed room, very light sleeper).

Anyway, growth has been very slow. I also have been getting some algae, not in big amounts but all kinds of it. I contemplated starting over.

Then I decided I would try pressurized on it. It was a big move for me because I had to take it off my 29 gallon which has always been pressurized. I don't have the funds to buy more plants for my 29, much less a separate CO2 system so I decided to switch for the time being and see what happens. I really wanted to succeed with this tank low tech but the growth is too slow and it just isn't happening.

My CO2 has been setup for about 30 min. In the pictures you can see my drop checker is dark blue. So here are the last pictures of it being low tech. I also put in pictures of both growth, and algae. If growth picks up quickly and algae subsides, I will start saving for a paintball setup with regulator or a 5lb system. 

Last low tech pics:


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Clean up today:


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Update:
I have seen noticeable growth with pressurized CO2. However, I keep breaking my clusters up so it isn't apparent in pictures. What is apparent is algae is gone and isn't seeming to come back.

Another thing is the lens of my camera is scratched so my pictures just can't do justice. It's been happening for awhile but I thought it was my settings. My pics will never be quite right until I get a new camera.

The only thing new is that I added some red plants. We get a lot of red bushes on the hills around here so I thought it was appropriate. I forget the plant name off the top of my head. The leaves are a bit big so I don't know if they will stay. They don't look right yet as I just put them in about 2 days ago.

Lastly, I had a CO2 leak. I have 2 HOB filters so even without it, I am injecting quite a bit of CO2. I haven't been home so today my drop checker was barely green. Hopefully my leak is fixed and I see more improvement in growth. I have a feeling it will be much faster now, but I will likely break up new growth a few more times so it may be hard to see in pictures, especially the cloudy ones I am getting.

Pictures:


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Wow, it doesn't even look like I have plants. Hopefully that will change next update lol.


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## ADA (Dec 31, 2010)

Amazing tank! Really nice rocks scape.. now if only you could get that (belem?) grass to fill out!

Beautiful!


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

ADA said:


> Amazing tank! Really nice rocks scape.. now if only you could get that (belem?) grass to fill out!
> 
> Beautiful!


Lol, exactly. It actually looks better than in pics in terms of fullness but still...long way to go. I keep thinking HC (my go to carpet) but I just want something new.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Still feel like I am watching the grass grow. Growth is there but it's probably not noticeable in pictures, much less anything to brag about. I have been separating larger clumps into smaller to spread it out but not sure I am going to keep my foreground. I have glosso in 2 low tech tanks growing about as much as this has since the start in about 1.5 weeks. I saved some just in case.


The main update is I finally made a background. I just got sick of seeing my blinds though the tank. It's white but it looks like an olive grey:











However, it looks cooler when I put my little Ikea LED light on:












Then it starts to look really different when I turn on my florescents. Not sure that this is the right tank for this, I just had an extra light fixture. I may or may not keep it on this tank but it was like $5, not including what I already had. It's right in between these two shots.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

This isn't an update, not that anyone seems to be watching anymore lol. Not that much is changing. I put a single stem of Glosso in to see how that reacts. I have not used Glosso in a long time. I recently put some in my GF's 5 gallon (very low tech) and it really took off and has noticeably grown in under a week. I am thinking about using it instead, though I am concerned it will be hard to trim given my scape. That's why the slow growing grass was initially appealing but now it's just boring me.

Glosso:










Showing off the new background and proving I do have some plants lol:


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

you have very little plant mass. 
maybe add more hairgrass to speed things along.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> you have very little plant mass.
> maybe add more hairgrass to speed things along.


I don't know exactly what it is which is preventing me from trying to find more. I got it very randomly. Otherwise that is exactly what I would do.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

just so you know I'm following along. What is the backround made out of and how to you attach it to the tank, or is it attached? I agree that more plant mass would def help you out here. but the rock work is awesome... good luck with the co2.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

frrok said:


> just so you know I'm following along. What is the backround made out of and how to you attach it to the tank, or is it attached? I agree that more plant mass would def help you out here. but the rock work is awesome... good luck with the co2.


Oh, I know my journal is probably super boring so I don't blame people for not responding lol. I didn't mean the comment I said in a bad way, just joking around. The tank gets boring to me, on and off, but now I am really considering the change. I just want to see how the Glosso grows before committing to it. I will likely actually keep the grass as well.


The background is that foam core poster board stuff. It's about 2.5 in off the back of the tank. I cut out sides so the light doesn't escape and it stays in place. I then put an old fixture under it (which also holds the board up). It's similar to a "shadow box" background you can find through a google search I first saw on reef tanks. I just didn't go that far. I am planing on painting it more similar to the sky, just don't really know how, lol.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

cool... i have similar stuff as a backround on my half moon tank except its black and i taped it on. but I want to do something like what you did for my mini-m when i think its ready. just to get a nice photo. I feel you on the updates, i feel like my threads get boring also... hahaha.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

frrok said:


> cool... i have similar stuff as a backround on my half moon tank except its black and i taped it on. but I want to do something like what you did for my mini-m when i think its ready. just to get a nice photo. I feel you on the updates, i feel like my threads get boring also... hahaha.


It's pretty easy. You just cut the board to the size of your tank, then glue some sides on. You can use tape or those small paper clamps to hold it on, remove when you want. Then put some sort of light source in. Most people put it on top, mine is on the bottom and seems to do fine. You could probably find a little florescent strip or LED light used for under cabinet lighting at a hardware store for cheap, given the small size of your tank. 




Here is a diagram of what it would look like from the top. The blue is the tank, the grey is the background


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So, not a lot new. The belem, whatever it is, has started to grow a bit more quickly with the addition of pressurized CO2. Still to slow for my tastes. I put in some DHG and it grew crazy fast but was WAY too tall. I have just decided to stick it out, it's the right size, I like the look, etc. I will break it up again which usually slows the growth for a bit but ultimately will make it more dense. I am not getting much of any algae and what I am getting is on the glass or the rocks so it's not a big issue having a small plant mass.

I would just go out buy whatever belem looked similar enough at this point but I am broke and can't find any locally anyway. I really have only seen this tank maybe 5 days out of the last 14 days so it doesn't bug me as much as it probably bugs all you following this lol. 

The other major change is I ditched my AC HOB's. They were just too noisy for me, especially in my bedroom. They are old and noisy, I don't sleep very easily. Now I have an Eheim 2215 with a brand new 2217 impeller and shaft. Flow is probably overkill, with the hardscape and substrate this tank is only about 12-13 gallons. 

I only took a front shot because not too much is going on.


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## mythin (Jun 26, 2009)

On your lights, what are those silver things that the legs are resting on that look like silver handles/vise grips?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

mythin said:


> On your lights, what are those silver things that the legs are resting on that look like silver handles/vise grips?


Here you go. I added some foam and used heat shrink tubing when I took the rim off my tank though, which was well after I posted this... 
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1139161-post11.html


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## mythin (Jun 26, 2009)

Thanks, thats definitely a cool idea, I may have to do that when I get my lights in!


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## keithy (Jun 8, 2010)

good hard scape. 

btw, where did you get the "legs" for your coralife light? I thinking of making something like that.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

keithy said:


> good hard scape.
> 
> btw, where did you get the "legs" for your coralife light? I thinking of making something like that.


2 posts above lol.


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## keithy (Jun 8, 2010)

oppsss......:icon_redf..... thanks.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

This is a bit of a "teaser" update. I finally decided to ditch my 29 gallon after a long time of bad luck. This tank never had a proper stand and had a pretty terrible viewing angle. Combined with the fact I am rarely in my bedroom, I rarely got to enjoy this tank. 

I may have to start a V2 of this journal as it is far from the low tech philosophy I was going for. I had to actually move the tank (with help) with most of the hardscape and substrate intact. It was pretty sketchy. I guess I wasn't paying attention and my two shrimps finally bread. Unfortunately I didn't realize this until well after I started draining the water. I have only seen 2 baby shrimp so I can only imagine how many I likely poured outside. Needless to say, everything stayed intact.








So, my equipment list is much different now:

Lighting: 4x24 Aquaticlife T5HO fixture. I don't know how high this will have to be. Right now it is 13 inch above the rim, about 24 in above the substrate. I am using a short noon time burst with 2 bulbs. This was working well on my 29 gallon in low tech mode. I hope I can go down some but am loving how open it is. Without the background though, it doesn't look good as their is so much light spillage. I will figure out the height once things get sorted.

Filtration-Ehiem 2215 with 2217 impeller. Pretty simple here but crazy flow. I think the tank is less than 15 gallons (I really think it's around 12) with hardscape and substrate. The intake is makeshift and kind of sketchy for me in the short term. I am thinking I will go with some ebay lily pipes in the future.

Autodosing-I am doing the fountain pump method. I have two containers and two pumps on an electric timer. I already have it all measured out but I need to set it up again. I will just verify by the day. Not exactly sure how I am going to attach the outlets but I will likely use the bottom part of my DIY legs. I just like the look of the clamps. 

Heater-Aquaclear 100 watt. This is the smallest heater I have that will do the job. I plan on going inline eventually. I don't know if I have enough room if I keep my outlet on the same side. I don't really want my outlet on the other side as it could get bumped easily. I will figure out that later.

UV Sterilizer-It's not plumbed in but I have a Coralife turbo twist 9 watt. I may or may not use it. I have to put it before my diffuser as CO2 gets trapped in it, or has in previous setups. Again, like the heater, it's going to be hard to plumb in if I keep my outflow on the same side, unless I move the canister to the other side. I may just sell it though.

CO2-I have a 20lb tank with a beverage regulator. I am pretty sure this started live out as a weed growing setup. I replaced the metering with a Fabco valve. I have been using a GLA inline but the nut that holds the tubing on broke so I am temporary using an in tank one. I did add back the meter when it was in my bedroom to feed a 10 gallon. That means I may buy a little nano that can fit on top the fridge. I have plenty of room for a second tank but I have a bunch of vinyl records that can't get wet so I can't put in on my shelf. I am thinking about an all in one nano like the Evolve or similar. I figure with the light spillage, I won't need to upgrade the light. If I go this route, I will try some selective breading. 

Flora:
I still have the unknown type of belem. I will see if it improves with the new setup but if not, I will likely add some HC or similar. Now it is on display so I am going to be less patient. I will likely keep the belem and just see what happens, even if I add. I also have some sort of not rare red plant that grows slowly. I like it because it reminds me of these red trees I see on the hills here. The scale is not correct but it gives the vibe all the same. May or may not keep it.

Fauna:
Right now I have 2 RCS that I put in my 10 gallon temporarily. As said, i didn't see that they bread so I don't know how many babies I have. I will keep these for now. I may get something more exotic as time goes on. I really like Tangerine Tigers. I will likely wait a bit, not only to get the tank established and sorted but also because it is the last on my agenda.


Anyway, long update, I just want to take some notes for myself. Here is a bad pic. My camera sucks and even more so without a tripod. I made a mistake when buying my background as it has adhesive on one side. I will put blue or black paper on the sides so that's no biggie, just ugly for now, I couldn't see it before.


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