# "Der Ewige Kreis" - "The Eternal Circle" - To be Torn Down



## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

this is the day I got my tank. My equipment should come by the middle of the week. I will modify my current stand to hold a 20. Here is the tank currently:










filled for test










another angle









inside corner silicone job








side of tank with pretty good silicone roud:

surprisingly, this is a petsmart top fin tank purchased today!!!!!

*TEARING DOWN*


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

so far the test is going good, no leaks!!


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## sea-horsea (Apr 4, 2008)

what dimension is it? and your stand? looking good...


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

the tank is an ordinary 20 long (30 longx12x12) and stand is this:










it has to be modded to have metal rods down the center because there is no supports there.


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## RampageRunner (Apr 9, 2008)

What are you going to put in that there tank? Any ideas?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I am planning on putting 2 pairs of Blue Rams in along with a school of 9 rummynoses and 5 otocinclus cocama.

I haven't completely decided on plants except:

Amazon Frogbit








Stargrass








Echinodorus Tellenus (narrow leaf as a carpet)








Echinodorus parviflorus var tropica








and last, but definatley not least: Echinodorus 'vesuvius'


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## Ozymandias (Jan 17, 2008)

vary nice Fishman can't wait to see how this end up. keep us posted and by the way what equipment are you going to be using?


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## t0p_sh0tta (Jan 24, 2008)

Nice, 2pr of Rams might be pushing it in a 20 though. I had a pair of sub-adults pair off in my 30 long and they easily took over half of it.

Edit:

Also, what type of substrate will you be using?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

well, a lot of equipment is being donated to me. They are as follows:

1 - whisper 30 filter
1 - box of filter bags
2 - hagen bottles for diy co2
1 - hagen bubble ladder
1 - Marc Weiss Keta Peat nuggets
1 - Coralife F/W T-5 Aqualight Double Strip Light-30"
2 - bags of Eco Complete/flourite (haven't decided yet)
1 - set of Manzanita from Badcopnofishtank

Did I forget anything? Please mention it to me if I forgot something, then I will post the missing info.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

hey topshotta, I was told by a member at apistogramma.com that it should be fine. And even so, I might go with a trio of apistos or just a plain pair of Rams.

We'll see, I got time.


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## Bugman (Jan 7, 2008)

Great start. I have to agree about the rams. Read some profiles on them. Min aquarium for 1 pair is generally said to be 20 for two pair it is generally said 55 and that must be heavily planted with a lot of hiding places.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Fish- your stargrass pic isn't coming through? Glad you finally got the pic thing all worked out, though :biggrin: 

I'd go with Fluorite over Eco- Eco will raise and buffer your pH and kH, which you don't want in this tank.

Nice plant choices roud:


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

thank you for all your comments, sorry it was delayed, but I was with my buddy playing tennis. I will use Flourite afeter what I heard you say Lauralee. I think I misheard, I think he said a pair of Rams or a group of 2 pairs of apistos, because apistos tend to be more less terretorial than the Rams. Really Lauralee? I can see the stargrass fine. Any equipment I forgot to mention?


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Hi

Rams are pretty fish, but they're many varieties of Apistos that are really pretty and you just don't see them nearly as often.

If you do get some Apistos, only go with one male and all the same species at first.

I stupidly tried a tank that had three pairs of different Apistos and a pair of Rams. One species of Apistos killed all the other species, but they didn't bother the Rams though. They Apistos that were left and the Rams spawned together many times, but the Rams eggs were always eaten. I ended up with many of the same species of Apistos. The father and the male children never fought for some reason. The female Apistos wanted to spawn more often than the males and they would attack the males if he didn't pay her any attention. It was funny.

I'm keeping _Pseudocrenilabrus nicholsi_ now. They're a dwarf mouth brooding African cichlid that aren't from the hard water lakes and they work well in a planted tank. They're spunky and the males want to breed 24/7.








http://badmanstropicalfish.com/cichlid_of_month/Pseudocrenilabrus_nicholsi.html
http://www.gcca.net/fom/Pseudocrenilabrus_nicholsi.htm
http://www.african-cichlid.com/nicholsi.htm


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## goalcreas (Nov 18, 2006)

Bugman said:


> Great start. I have to agree about the rams. Read some profiles on them. Min aquarium for 1 pair is generally said to be 20 for two pair it is generally said 55 and that must be heavily planted with a lot of hiding places.


Where does this come from. I have had 3 pair with MORE THEN ENOUGH room in a 29 gallon and a trio of apisto's in there, and all of them spawning. Of course water changes are a must, but IMHO they are anyway.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yeah, I want to like semi breed, so I want SOME fry, but not TOO many fry, I just wanna sell a little to my lfs. so I will have rummynoses. They might eat all fry, but if I do decide to breed, I could just move them to a crappy 5 gallon, right?


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## goalcreas (Nov 18, 2006)

Yes, for Apisto's, the female will see the eggs to wigglers to free swimmers, then take them out and put them in a grow out tank.
For Rams, pull the rock with the eggs and hatch them in the grow out tank.


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

goalcreas said:


> Where does this come from. I have had 3 pair with MORE THEN ENOUGH room in a 29 gallon and a trio of apisto's in there, and all of them spawning. Of course water changes are a must, but IMHO they are anyway.


You may have gotten lucky here, I have had some very territorial female GBR's. A trio in a 55, and one female killed the other.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yeah which would you go with? A pair of GBR or a trio of apistos?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I might have trouble updating tomorrow due to school, but I will try


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

I use this Penn-Plax Aqua Nursery with my Pn. You hook an airline up to it and the fry are fine. The mother hold the fry in her mouth and when she lets them out, they are drawn into the smaller container with an airline. It works somewhat like how an UGF flows water. It's a nice fry tank. You can easily use it if you breed Rams to hold the eggs.
http://www.bigalsonline.com/StoreCa...quanursery?&query=nursery&queryType=0&offset=


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

wait, but if GBR's are substrate spawners (rocks), then couldn't you just put the rock with the eggs on it in another tank?


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

My rams liked to spawn on the leaves of an Amazon Sword. 

I'm sure that you could pull the leaf off and put it in another tank with some of the same aquarium water.

I like using that little nursery because it is in the aquarium that they spawned in with the same water and temperature. It's only $8.49.

Then I put the fry when they're about three weeks old in a grow out tank with a heater and sponge filter plus some Java Moss.

It works well for me.roud:


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

lauraleellbp said:


> Eco will raise and buffer your pH and kH, which you don't want in this tank


Eh??  

From CaribSea - "The Caribsea Eco-Complete Planted Aquarium Substrate is Iron rich which eliminates the need for laterite and is also Nitrate and carbonate free which will not increase pH or carbonate hardness."

I think you're confusing the info that it has buffered blackwater solution (most likely buffered to counteract acidity) or that it has a neutral pH, but it won't increase pH or alkalinity. I have Eco in a tank that will still lose a degree of KH in between spaced out water changes.


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## dekstr (Oct 23, 2007)

Looks good fishman!

That is a nice 20 gallon, from the picture it has nice silicon seams.

I can't wait to see when it's set-up. You spent a lot of time planning so it will be no doubt turn out very well.

EC is a good planted substrate. Its buffering capacity is not that important. Good selling point but doesn't actually do much. I mean.. woah raised my buffering capacity by a few degrees, but the plants use the calcium carbonate anyway. ! 

From the caribsea FAQ: "My pH and KH went up after I put Eco-Complete™ Planted in my tank with RO water, what’s going on?

While Eco-Complete™ Planted does not affect pH and KH long term, you will find that it will give a small bump to both of these parameters initially, and this is especially noticeable with the use of RO /DI water. Fortunately this is just a small amount of Calcium Carbonate that is on, not in the substrate and it will dissipate with the first couple of water changes, usually in the first couple weeks. Planting the tank will also help. Keep in mind that one should never add particularly sensitive animals to a tank in the first few weeks anyway but that this is especially important with this situation if the animals are pH sensitive- requiring a low pH."

To be on the safe side you can add the fish after a few weeks as CaribSea recommends. 

Sweet equipment you got donated!

You have more delicate species (rummynose, otos, rams) so it'll be a challenge for sure! Should be no problem though.

Have fun!


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Well, that explains it. Funny how there's always some fine print.. er, "non-print" in this case. :hihi:

Negligible affects, none the less. Eco's good stuff. roud:


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

There are some people complaing about E-C recently. Carib-Sea is being very kind and replacing the bad bags for free if you give them your sales receipt. Check this out:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/substrate/62027-eco-complete-very-coarse.html


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Wah :icon_eek: major bummers.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

oh well, I need lower pH and peat lowers, right? The donated items include peat pellets. I kind of like the look of flourite black anyway. I might top it off with some sand in the places that aren't planted.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Left C said:


> There are some people complaing about E-C recently. Carib-Sea is being very kind and replacing the bad bags for free if you give them your sales receipt. Check this out:
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/substrate/62027-eco-complete-very-coarse.html


Yup that's exactly what I was referring to. I really think that CaribSea got some of their regular Eco mixed in with their Cichlid formula or SOMETHING- I personally had 6 bags that I took back to my LFS unopened b/c they didn't look like Eco should- they had multicolored rocks in there (looked like their Cichlid substrate to me). I switched out to Fluorite black and am VERY happy with it!


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

lauraleellbp said:


> Yup that's exactly what I was referring to. I really think that CaribSea got some of their regular Eco mixed in with their Cichlid formula or SOMETHING- I personally had 6 bags that I took back to my LFS unopened b/c they didn't look like Eco should- they had multicolored rocks in there (looked like their Cichlid substrate to me). I switched out to Fluorite black and am VERY happy with it!


Here's some more info about the current E-C with some pictures of it: http://www.plantgeek.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11135&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

This is a response from Jud at CaribSea:


caribsea said:


> Hi my name is Jud and I work for CaribSea and handle product concerns.
> 
> Yep, I got Jake's email and I did answer him today. Say what you will I will give you the facts:
> 
> ...


Did you get any of the bags of E-C a few years ago that had phosphoric acid added to reduce it's alkalinity. It had extremely high phosphate levels and water changes wouldn't reduce it very much. They replaced these bags too. 

I got some replacement bags and they were just black sand.:hihi: 

I bought some E-C when it first came out and I wasn't aware of any alkalinity problems. The bag said that is "nitrate and carbonate free which will not increase pH or carbonate hardness" as jaidexl mentioned.roud: 

It killed my rams and rummy nose tetras. I was pissed.:angryfire 

I emailed them, but I didn't get a response. 

Then the FAQ that that dekstr was released.:icon_roll

You know, it makes me think that Seachem knew something about the bad E-C coming out and that's why the black Flourite was delayed and released not long ago.:icon_ques


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> Yup that's exactly what I was referring to. I really think that CaribSea got some of their regular Eco mixed in with their Cichlid formula or SOMETHING- I personally had 6 bags that I took back to my LFS unopened b/c they didn't look like Eco should- they had multicolored rocks in there (looked like their Cichlid substrate to me). I switched out to Fluorite black and am VERY happy with it!


man, you really love that flourite stuff, you always say how good it is, it must be super!!!!!


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

Left C said:


> It killed my rams and rummy nose tetras. I was pissed.:angryfire


uh oh, same fish I am getting


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Apparently CaribSea didn't do much testing to verify that the "new source material" is inert, either, from reports I've read now across 4 different forums...


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I have decided on Flourite black, and I found a perfect price. 18 bucks a bag, but then I need shipping (2 bags needed for 2.5 inches.)


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I have a question, are there any SA plants that are kind of long leaved, like hairgrass or Sagittaria?


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

I guess Lilaeopsis brasiliensis could be considered similar to hair grass. There are eleocharis species in parts of SA as well, "spike rushes" are a fairly world dominating genus, if not under water, on land (that's where I get mine, look on the side of shaded roads or near ponds/swamps, has little brown balls on the tips [flowers]).

I'd say the SA grass most commonly compared to Sag is Echinodorus tenellus, you can usually get a lot of it through the swap and shop for a low price, from one of us who are overrun with it. :hihi: Mine are reserved for Esteroali.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

nevermind, I think I may have enough plants for now. I love the new tank. There is a drawback though, my dad is going to Switzerland on Wednesday for my grandma's 90th birthday and the donated equipment is supposed to come on that day. also, he said I should not do anything until he comes back because the stand need to be modified and that cannot be done without him. I am allowed to order equipment though, since that does not require him there.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

fishman i am so glad to see you are finally getting your tank. 

umm maybe you can try vals, i know they are from the americas, but i dont know which region.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yeah, I have thought about those, I think 1 species is, but I might have enough plants. I had a huge prob last night. It was 90 degrees in my room, and so was the fish tank (86). Luckily I caught it in time, I had to add ice. next time, the tank will be open top with a fan blowing hot air away.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

well i can tell you the solutions to heating i use for my three tanks:

20L- about 3 feet away from an AC in a room that never gets above 78 (AC set on 75), it doesnt get to cold since i always have the heater and it can outcompete my AC while the tank is at that distance.

eclipse six- my dad cut the hood and built in two computer fans. one blowing hot air from the lights out, and the other blowing random air in there out. i also have an "iceprobe". it is a big ugly white tube going into the tank (you will probably need to drill an entrance) it has a silicon washer to prevent leaks, and it has a big fan. the white probe changes temp very quickly, and gets hot, the fan cools blows that heat away. thus it sucks heat out of the tank. it doesnt work as well as a real chiller, but cheaper and its ok.

eclipse 3- nothing that cant live above 80 in a house that only ever reaches 80. no nothing.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

well, with rummynoses, rams, and otos, they all prefer higher temps, so it MIGHT be ok.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

well, not 80s; but if you can keep the room around 78 they will survive the summer. 
NOTE: fans blowing air around the room make it seem colder to us, but they dont have any affect on exothermic organism, like fish. because we are 98, the more particles that are say 80 strike our body the cooler we are since the temp equalizes slightly. fans make more air particles hit us. the fish are exothermic (or coldblooded) so they are the same temp as anything they are in. so their is no cooling from that. 
im saying this because i HAVE seen people up the current to cool the fish and say its like a fan (my response was: yeah, cause you would want a fan over AC any day; especially if you were the same temp as the air).


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I dont mean like using pumps and stuff, I mean to blow warm air away from the surface of the water, so there will be less heating of the water.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

ok, update, I will have E. angustifolius. After seeing it for sale on APC and Plantedtanks, I looked it up and found it was what I was looking for, long leaved plant with sharp ends!!!!!! woot!!!


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I forgot to say, I might not go with echinodorus vesuvius, as it is very hard to find.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

E. vesuvius isn't that hard, you just need to be willing to wait, or post a WTB ad in the forum. I've seen some posted 3-4 times in the past month across both this and APC's S&S...

I'll send you some if you still want any by the time mine establishes and is ready to start sending out runners... but in a low light tank like mine that might be a longggg time from now so don't hold your breath! :icon_eek: LOL


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

no, its ok, I really like the look of Echinodorus Tenellus, it really has changed my thoughts. THE EQUIPMENT CAME TODAY!!!!!!! I AM SOOOOOO HAPPY!!!!


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

so what equipement will you use (like filter, heater, CO2, light, etc.)? i dont know if you already said this. i just saw the thread yesterday and am too lazy to check all the pages.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yeah, I did, but here:

1 - whisper 30 filter
1 - box of filter bags
2 - hagen bottles for diy co2
1 - hagen bubble ladder
1 - Marc Weiss Keta Peat nuggets
1 - Coralife F/W T-5 Aqualight Double Strip Light-30"
2 - bags of flourite (haven't decided yet)
1 - set of Manzanita from Badcopnofishtank


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

ugh, i dont really like whispers, they are big, bulky, dont circulate water well (water from the outake just goes right back in), and the cascade straight down makes it impossible to put stems underneath to hide them. i know they are cheap, but there is a reason for it. too late now, but i suggest you switch out in a year or so for an ehiem ecco (thats what i have and i LOVE it).

how will you diffuse the other bottle? (if you can do it, you will have the perfect amount of CO2).

you lighting is kinda low. less then 2 watts per gallon. i know its T5 but still. its all preference but i preffer yellows and reds with immense lighting.

two thumbs up for the flourite (two thumbs down for rinsing it, it takes forever).


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## Digital (Apr 4, 2008)

I just added the flourite black to my 37g and it's a mess! 

I think I might have the same lighting setup as you.... I'll have to check though.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

IC3D said:


> I just added the flourite black to my 37g and it's a mess!


I rinsed mine 2-3 times and then left it spread out on a white sheet in the sun to dry. Left it dry in my tank overnight. Next day I filled the tank and it did not cloud the water AT ALL- I'm telling ya- drying it is the key! :thumbsup:


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## macclellan (Dec 22, 2006)

@[email protected] said:


> ugh, i dont really like whispers, they are big, bulky, dont circulate water well (water from the outake just goes right back in), and the cascade straight down makes it impossible to put stems underneath to hide them. i know they are cheap, but there is a reason for it.


That is 100% correct! I just got my first Whisper, and it is crapola. My shrimp's swimmerets do a better job of circulating water than that POS. :icon_roll


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yeah, I know, dont worry guys, I will get a canister filter soon. I got thew equipment today, the peat, DIY Co2, filter, catridges, and everything came today !!!!!


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

great so when do you think you will set the tank up?
id really like to see it with plants on friday and an update on thursday, but i know thats rushing it. (im leaving for aruba on saturday morning and coming back on thursday, so thats why) but dont set your schedule by me.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i wish, I have no stand (new one or my stand with mods). My dad left to Switzerland today and doesn't want me to do anything with the stand until he comes back. Also, I have no credit card or anything, so I cant order substrate, t-5 double light strip, and a new Hagen bubble ladder.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

is there any chance of me convincing you to get a stronger light? 
ill say again youll have under 2 wpg and wont be able to keep a lot of plants.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

there is a lamp which gives 29 more watts, and is only 18 dollars less:
Coralife Freshwater Aqualight Deluxe-Single 30" Strip 

its 65w, which is (IMO) the best wattage for an average 20L


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

t-5 gives of more lumens, and they are stronger than Compact Fluorescent. the tqank is very low, 12 inches high, so the light is plenty powerful enough for the plants, anyway, later, when I have more money, I will buy a second of the t-5 fixtures.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

it is possible that you have enough, i know t5s are stronger. but i dont know how much. well itll be trial and error; thats ok its cheap plants, not corals. i just started a nano reef for the first time, and there is no trial and error since a nice sized coral is about $75-$150+.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

the WPG rule doesn't apply much to small and lower tanks, as well as big tanks, it is based on lumens, right?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

yep, actually all tanks should be based on lumens, but that changes with acrylic covers, humidity, etc. and is not easy to measure; so people use watts. but 20 gallons qualifies for medium size.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

there is no cover, it is a 20 long, so it is shorter.


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

The depth won't matter much, read Rex Grigg's site. There's a snippet about how it won't make a difference until about 3 ft. It'd be easier to tell you if you had enough light if you gave a specific model of light. I would bet it's enough, since the T5's that come in that size are 18W. If you went by WPG, you'd be just under 2 wpg, which is perfect if you don't want to use CO2. You can grow plants with less than 2 wpg. You can even grow dwarf hair grass, as shown by the Senskes. Based on your list, you shouldn't run into too much trouble if you play it right. You might have some problems keeping your E.T. growing low, though.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yeah, it is the dual 18 watt t5:

here:

http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsU...5/cl0/coralifefwt5aqualightdoublestriplight30

Why would I have trouble growing the Echinodorus Tenellus?


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Props on not succumbing to light hype. See where that T5 gets you while you save money for CO2. Your plan to possibly add another is smart not only because those fixtures are cheap, you will have far more options using two strips rather than one, options for power, placement, spectrums, and it even sets you up with an easier resale (a nice medium powered, cheap and efficient light will fly out the window, plus you have two of them). 

All those questions you were constantly asking have served you well, I think you'll do alright at this stuff as long as you listen to the right answers. :thumbsup:

Remember that CO2 will benefit your tank even with low light. I wouldn't add a second fixture until CO2 is running steady for a while. DIY will suffice for this tank as long as you diffuse it properly and keep it steady, I would run two bottles with mix day staggered two weeks apart so you don't get a major drop in CO2 when the yeast quits working at full potential.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

ok, I have 2 DIY Yeast Hagen bottles for fermentation Co2, they will be used on the tank at the same time. How long do you think that would last in a 20 long?


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

Regardless of tank size, yeast lasts between 1 and 3 weeks (at least IME). There are supposedly certain ways you can make it last longer, but I never really got around to trying before getting pressurized.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

as fishscale said, the DIY CO2 lasts a certain length no matter what tank it is on, what matters is the proportions inside and the amount of initial yeast and the temp and size of the container.
the way it works is by the yeast eating the sugar which is glucose. glucose is C6H12O6. to release the energy inside they break it apart and bond the peices of the molecule with oxygen (O2). the process is:
C6H12O6 + O2 (x6)---> H2O (x6) + CO2 (x6)
the CO2 is a gas and has a lesser density then before so it needs more space. the only place to go is in the tube, into the tank. this process depends on the conditions in the CO2 canister, and are unrelated to those in the tank.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

thanks for the help :thumbsup:


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

are you going to do the tank aquascape according to a plan, or just scape as you go?
if plan, can we see it?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

well, it might just be planted as I go, but I have some pics if u like, let me find them


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

its these:


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

hmm i like the first one better, but may i suggest continuing the short green plant in the center and connecting the two groups of plants.
i really cant wait to see how it turns out.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yeah, I might do that with the Echinodorus Tenellus, the thing is, Rams and Apistos like to have an open area in the middle to swim (Thats what I heard).


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

they are bottom feeders so it makes sense.
i dont think a planting against the back wall about 3" forward would bother them. 

what about driftwood, do you have it? i suggest you get a light brownish kind. i think it would fit in better then the dark kind (some are almost black).


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I am getting manzanita from badcopnofishtank, and I guess I will plant a little in the back then, it will be a little as I go, but mostly according to plan.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

update:

I have recieved equipment from a felllow APC member. I have recieved a Whisper 40 HOB filter, 2 Hagen Co2 fermentation kits, and peat pellets.

The equipment I need will be ordered shortly. Instead of buying flourite, and paying for expensive shipping, I will buy AS probably from AFA in SF. I believe 1 9 liter bag is enough for about 2.5 inches of substrate, correct me if I am wrong


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

I read through this thread and have to ask. Just what classifies this as a journal?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

the fact that it is basically a diary of a tank. it also contains criticism and help from other members.


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

fishman9809 said:


> the fact that it is basically a diary of a tank.


It is? I must have missed something. It resembles all of your "I am getting this tank soon, what should I do..." threads.

I am not bashing you at all. I just expected more. Pictures of the actual tank would be nice. Besides the pics of the tank sitting on your porch.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

naw, I know ur not bashing me, just wondering, but yes, I like to have good advice because u dont want to put the wrong things in ur tank and everything goes wrong. as I stated before, the tank wont really get started until my dad comes back from Switzerland in 9 days. The equipment is coming in, but the tank wont get planted or anything until he arrives home.


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

fishman9809 said:


> naw, I know ur not bashing me, just wondering, but yes, I like to have good advice because u dont want to put the wrong things in ur tank and everything goes wrong. as I stated before, the tank wont really get started until my dad comes back from Switzerland in 9 days. The equipment is coming in, but the tank wont get planted or anything until he arrives home.


So, in other words it really isnt a journal. As it hasnt started yet. Thats what I thought.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

sure


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

LOL fsh never read through my journal on TR (linked in my sig) I started it in January, and I think I was up to 10 or 12 pages before water ever saw the inside of my tank (since that only happened last weekend...) :bounce: 

I look forward to seeing more pics with yours too, Fish! roud:


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yea, hopefully I will get AS tomorrow, I am planning for tomorrow, but I cant do anything until my dad comes back from the land of the Swiss. I might DIY a stand with him or mod my current stand to hold more weight. II hope he comes back soon, because a APC member is offering me some lighting fixtures for a lowered price, since they are used as well!!!!


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

AQUA SOIL HAS BEEN BOUGHT!!!!!!!! 1 bag of 9 liters and 1 bag of 3 liters!!!!!!

I feel rich!!!! Expensive stuff, aquasoil is!!!


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## Ozymandias (Jan 17, 2008)

sweet on the AS never used the stuff but man i wish to eventually


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## goalcreas (Nov 18, 2006)

fshfanatic said:


> I read through this thread and have to ask. Just what classifies this as a journal?


I think #2 says it all

journal |ˈjərnl|
noun
1 a newspaper or magazine that deals with a particular subject or professional activity : medical journals | [in names ] the Wall Street Journal.
2 *a daily record of news and events of a personal nature; a diary.*
• Nautical a logbook.
• ( the Journals) a record of the daily proceedings in the British Houses of Parliament.
• (in bookkeeping) a daily record of business transactions with a statement of the accounts to which each is to be debited and credited.
3 Mechanics the part of a shaft or axle that rests on bearings.


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## goalcreas (Nov 18, 2006)

fishscale said:


> You may have gotten lucky here, I have had some very territorial female GBR's. A trio in a 55, and one female killed the other.


Sorry to hear that, I guess I am lucky over and over again


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

thanks Ozymandias and Goalcreas, thanks for backing me up, I hope you try AS Ozymandias, it looks like great stuff!!!!


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## Ozymandias (Jan 17, 2008)

now i realy can't wait to see this tank set up, whens your dad getting back?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

um, according to schedule, next week on Thursday!!!! I dont know if we will DIY a new stand or just mod this one. I took apart my old tank today, and returned all the fish to my lfs. I hope we DIY a new stand, because the stand is not tooo nice. I still need a heater, though it is hot, it will get cold in da winter.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

*UPDATE 4/24/08*

I'm just gonna get some _Marisa cornuarietis (kind of Apple snail from SA)_ and they will take care of algae.

My new stocking list for a Llanos swamp plain biotope:

1 pair of Blue Rams
14 pristella maxillaris (xray tetra) or 14 hyphressbyron sweglesi (red phantom tetra)
1 clown pleco
4-6 _Marisa cornuarietis_

wat do you think? all are SA native to the Llanos plains!!!


this tank will be completely of the Orinoco subsection, the Llanos plains. They are basically swamp lands left from the floods and fill up during the wet season and fish go in and out, but if they stay too long, they get trapped.

Will try to post pics later of equipment bought, my bro is being kind of a$$y, lol

-Nick


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

equip:


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

fshfanatic said:


> I read through this thread and have to ask. Just what classifies this as a journal?





fshfanatic said:


> It is? I must have missed something. It resembles all of your "I am getting this tank soon, what should I do..." threads.
> 
> I am not bashing you at all. I just expected more. Pictures of the actual tank would be nice. Besides the pics of the tank sitting on your porch.





fshfanatic said:


> So, in other words it really isnt a journal. As it hasnt started yet. Thats what I thought.


:hihi: 



roud:


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i dont get it


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## Ozymandias (Jan 17, 2008)

Fishman i don't get it ether. also i know your doing a biotope but i think you'll be fin even if thay aren't natives to the Llanos plains; not many people will really notice.


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## SeaSerpant (Feb 20, 2008)

looks great. i think you have most of your stuff there.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I know about the biotope fact, but I want to simulate reality.

I really love biotopes!!!!

Thanks for the comments!!!!!!!


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

fishman9809 said:


> I'm just gonna get some _Marisa cornuarietis (kind of Apple snail from SA)_ and they will take care of algae.
> 
> My new stocking list for a Llanos swamp plain biotope:
> 
> ...


Bad idea, Marisa cornuarietis aka Giant Columbian Ramshorn is a veracious plant eater and will mow your tank down in no time. All apple snails for that matter are large sources of waste and are not really a good idea in a 20gl, especially not in large numbers.

Plecos have no place in a 20gl IMO, they get too large and produce way too much waste, even the smaller ancistrus species and the like will fit but are still heavy waste producers in a small volume of water. Not to mention plecos aren't very reliable algae eaters, it's the heavy protein requirement that makes their diet turn to sludge in the tank. I would personally save the space for a group of Otocinclus, they are more entertaining and do a great job on certain types of algae.

Ditching those two options from the list will allow you greater room for more schoolers, although I would cut the tetra schools you listed in half. Technically that's still well over the "inch per gallon" guideline that everyone follows, but with enough biomedia in the filters (I would get a small canister filter for more room) and enough space for them to swim, I could see 14 tetras feasible in a 20 long with plants, although regular 20gl tanks fill up quick with stock and it becomes very distracting IMHO.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

clown plecs grow 4 inches.

I need an algae eater though.......


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

oh yea, it wouldn't be a true biotope if I got otos, by the way.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I thought you were going to have shrimp in this tank? I'm probably behind by now though (it's been a few hours) LOL- just pulling your chain :hihi: 

It's looking good Fish! :biggrin:


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I wish, all shrimp will get eaten by the Rams, I dont know what to put in now, now that I know that the snails eat plants. ARGH.

Everything else is pretty good, might lower the school to 9-11 though


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

anyone know any algae eaters in the Llanos plains of SA?


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

The only Orinoco Otocinclus I'm aware of are O. vittatus and O. huaorani, both very common physically to most Otos you'll find locally, often O. macrospilus or O. mariae, sometimes it's difficult to tell them apart.

However, I don't know that this would be considered a true Llanos plain biotope as I believe these Otos are collected from other parts of the Orinoco river. The problem here is that you aren't going to find a better SA algae eater than an Oto, Siamese algae eaters are great sometimes, but obviously out of the question. Some farlowella species are said to be good algae eaters, but they get rather large and need a fairly big tank. There are smaller Chaetostoma species form the Orinoco such as C. rio_zuata (Orinoco), but again, I'm not sure if they're found in the Llanos plains. 

So, you'll probably have to make a trade off here. It's going to be hard to create a perfectly endemic biotope when you're talking about a 250,000 square mile area of land. It's often hard to stock every niche in a biotope tank when so much info is limited, especially from the vast collection areas of SA.

Most of us handle our algae by tending to the plants and nutrients, rather than relying on algae eaters. Keep in mind that even the best algae eaters (otos, SAEs, flagfish) will not eat every type of algae that exists in a planted tank, some will even turn on your plants. If you're simply looking for bottom dwellers or scavengers to round out the stock list, there are certain Corydoras species in the Llanos like C. habrosus, but you may not want to risk keeping cories with breeding rams, they occupy the same areas in the tank and this can cause aggression and territory issues with the Rams like it would with Apistos. There are "typical catfish" species but they are usually moderate to extremely large, some big enough to tip a small fishing boat.

Here is the planet catfish Orinoco species list that may get you some results, but you'll have to really search to narrow down the Llanos plain species and even then it's not a promise that they'll be endemic species.

Maybe if you go to the SA planted tank site that Fabien from APC is on, you might find someone who speaks English and is kind enough to throw together a nice endemic list from an area they know well.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

my ram couple in my 20L (both now sadly deceased) didnt bother my amano shrimp. but there were only 2 shrimp.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

thanks jaidexl, I looked on planetcatfish.com, and the only actual one that is small enough and that is from the Llanos plains is the clown pleco.

If Blue Rams where found elsewhere than the Llanos, I could find other fish, but they aren't


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Clown plecos won't eat much algae, most of their diet is wood.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

you could just get some common otos, they live nearby i think. but you want a pure true biotope, so you may not want to.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I want a true biotope, it is hard, but I really want to, when I grow up, I want to visit SA to look around and see what its like, but I might not want to, mosquitos hate me, I biked on my hill, when I came back, 7 bites on 1 arm. No bites on family members.

yea, I am goin to see if that Zappins guy (in SA right now), has ever been to the Llanos plains, and ask if he saw Rams, tetras, and otos there.


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## nate_mcnasty (Mar 11, 2008)

this place has alot of plecos http://exoticfinds.net/


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

this isnt pertinant to the tank but, use more deodorant and youll get less mosquitoe bites. mosquitoes dont really care about the blood from person to person, the reason some people get bit more then others (im one of those that is bit even in areas treated with pesticides) is because everyone smells different, and mosquitoes find food primarily by smell. thats why those mosquitoe sprays smell so bad (but they also have DEET).


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

thanks for the advice guys, even u @[email protected] for the non-relevant subject. lol 

just kidding with u guys, thanks!!!


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I got the wood!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

So where are the pics then???!!!!!!

LOL


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

will do, gotta finish my practicin, cant wait, but I gotta wait till da weekend to create a hardscpae, becuase I need another leak test, I chipped the tank becuase it was behind my computer chair and it is metal, and I smacked into it, it doesn't look too bad, so Im not worried.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

pics of the wood as requested

by the way, I might use a Hydor 10 canister filter, seeing how noby has, it might be good, make a review for everyone to see:





































gotta wait till the weekend to make a hardscpae, so I just threw in the wood, just to show u guys the wood, it is really nice!!!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Very nice!

I'm looking forward to the weekend.

How are you going to treat the wood before putting it into your tank?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I got the wood from badcopno, he already treated it.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

wow nice wood, and a lot of it. a LOT of it.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yea, there is, it is amazing, and the wood has cool shapes too.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

when are you gonna pour in gravel and start the hardscape (i bet your counting seconds)?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I am counting seconds, probably Friday, maybe, if I do the 2nd leak test 2day, I will be ready by thurs, but I have school, so Firday would be best.


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## theinjected1 (Mar 8, 2007)

That wood is going to float, for a while. But I am sure you researched that. Is Malasian DW from SA? I know you are trying to keep it llanos.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i know, it was presoaked by badcopno, but I might have to again. The wood is manzanita, but its alright, its mainly native life I am concerned about keeping.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

do you know your water ph? you might need to lower it or raise it depending on how much CO2 you want and the intial ph. it would be good to get such a chemical beforehand (for raising, all you need is baking soda).


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

well, I believe my pH is 7, I will bring it down with the peat.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

if you are going to put peat in the filter, i reccomend waiting until your CO2 was running for a couple of days and then seeing if you need it (because your CO2 will probably bring the ph down enough or maybe too much), if you are going to put it under the gravel, go ahead (since you need at least some plants to see how much CO2 they will use up and you cant put them first, them layer the gravel) and you will probably need a buffer. 

so when are you ordering the plants (i reccomend tomorrow so you get them saturday, unless you want to pay more, or want the plants to come later)?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I will order very soon, dont u worry!!! 

I will set up Co2 soon, I will add AS tomorrow, and add the peat underneath.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Don't use much peat, at all. The AS will bring down pH on its own, and already has a pretty high organic content.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yea, the leak test is going well, the filter seems good, even though its cheap, I will be getting a Hydor 10 canister filer, probably 2nite, and will get rocks, the two t-5 fixtures, a ball valve, a mesh bag for peat, Co2 tubing and suction cups, a drop checker, diffuser, and also 2 check valves, all tomorrow, shipped this morning overnite, so it should be here tomorrow.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

any news, maybe a hardscape?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yea, I made a hardscape, filled up the tank, and the hardscape is gone, everything got messed up with the water. the plants will most likely be at my house on the weekend (next weekend). I will update pics on the hardscape, give me like 15 mins, just got back from watching Ironman, best movie from Marvel, *EVER*


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

it was good? DAMN IT!!! a friend and i were at the movies yesterday and couldnt decide what to watch, it was ironman or forbiden kingdom. forbiden kingdom, sucked. a lot. i could probably direct it so the fighting looked more realistic (some of the blows didnt even connect, yet the person flew back 50 or so feet)

yeah, if you dont fill VERY slow from low down, that tends to happen. everything needs to be slow in a tank. only bad things happen fast in an ecosystem.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

pics:

not so good hardscape, but good enough:


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

not so good!!!
are you kidding, i love it. classic is classic and its always good. you dont have to be original in the hardscape, it often looks much better if you use a classic hardscape, and then pour all you inginuity and creativity and personality into the plants and their arrangment.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

the water is sooooooooo cloudy


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

not really, try filling a tank with unrinsed flourite as the substrate; now THATS cloudy.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

wat do u mean not really? In the pics there is no water, I didnt post pics of water.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

oh, well then thats dirty glass. LOL


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yea, it was outside for 3 days, so thats to expect, I'll clean it tomorrow.


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## goalcreas (Nov 18, 2006)

Looking good.
I would suggest to slope the substrate higher in the back and lower in the front for a better sense of depth, and go higher on the left and right and lower in the middle, but go higher on one side then the other.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

ok, will do tomorrow when the cloudiness clears, or tonight, depending on how clear it gets.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i rescaped it, I suck at taking pics, but here it is:














































i am about the worst photographer, but here, I like this better.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

its not much of a change, i can hardly notice it; both are fine. my reccomendation is to fill with water, then let it stay (with the filter off) and it should settle in under 24 hours.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Nice scape.

@[email protected]: Have you used ADA AS before?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yea, more than 24 hrs. Even I know that, now. lol


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

nope (well i have a handfull in one tank that i got with HC from the swap n shop but i dont think thats what you meant), but i have experience with flourite; it settles faster then it is filtered out. and the stuff cloudy stuff is plant juice (or algae juice, depending on other factors; lol).
why? is the dust from AS completely different from flourite dust?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

well, you dont wash AS, so it sits, the dust has to settle itself.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

that could be a big difference (though flourite says not to wash, but people still do it most of the time). or maybe like the time my dad dumped flourite and eco into our 20L without rinsing the flourite. he changed the water 10 times and it still took forever to filter out the rest (he wanted the stuff OUT)


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

ok, I wanted to do an update, I added lots of nice rocks, but I cant update, lost my camera. 

I found a great article about depth in tanks:

http://www.aquascapingworld.com/magazine/Magazine/Creating-Depth-and-Perspectve-in-an-Aquascape.html

I would totally do this, but the muck of AS will get stirred up again, do you think it is worth it, to do the substrate moving? I guess I will wait for maybe 1-2 weeks more to buy plants/plant them, as my supplier of plants, goalcreas, is moving, so, if he has time, I will ask him, if not, I will try and get some at the next SFBAAPS meet. I doubt they will have the plants I will need though, I need plants such as Echinodorus Parvilfrous 'tropica', Echinodorus tenellus, stargrass. I'm not sure if I should get floating plants, what do you guys think? If anything, I would get either Amazon Frogbit or Salvinia minima.

Thanks,

-Nick


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

you dont realy need to, as long as you have some slope youll be fine (i actually think that tank in the pic has too much slope).


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

too much slpoe? Oh, that might be the way I took the pic, lol.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

no, no, no. too much slope on the tank here: http://www.aquascapingworld.com/maga...Aquascape.html

its like half the way up the glass


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

oh ok, I thought u were talkin about mine, lol. I wanna post the pics of the tank with rocks, but I cant find the camera.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

HAHAHAHAHAHA!
lol

hope you find it soon, i want to see the tank. i want to see it even more with plants, but i have to wait.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I wanna see it too, I found the camera, but the batteries are out, all 3 of them, I wonder how that happened. I cant wait for plants, maybe on weekend I will order. I have no homework for like 4 days because of star testing, so lots of time. I cant wait though, I am also getting a fluval 204, used, 25, I think I sed b4, but the seller will ship it out on Monday, probably.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

UPDATE!!!!!!!!


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## nate_mcnasty (Mar 11, 2008)

nice lookin tank


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

Thanks!!!!!


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## goalcreas (Nov 18, 2006)

SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEETTTTTT:thumbsup: 
Just needs plants, but this is starting to look good.

Where are all the folks that didn't think this was a tank journal now:angryfire


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

lol, Thanks Goalcreas!!!!


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

goalcreas said:


> SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEETTTTTT:thumbsup:
> Just needs plants, but this is starting to look good.
> 
> Where are all the folks that didn't think this was a tank journal now:angryfire


I am right here. Yes it is now a tank journal. It only took 11 pages.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

lol, 12!!!!! Is that the new record for a journal w/out water in the tank?!?!?!?


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

fishman9809 said:


> lol, 12!!!!! Is that the new record for a journal w/out water in the tank?!?!?!?


ok, now that is funny!:thumbsup:


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

it might be, i think CM held the record previously, but im not sure (nor what it was).


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Fishman, I really like what you did with your wood, but if I may criticize a bit; The rocks look unnatural lined up that way. I'd suggest more random groupings of stones. Take a look at some river stones in there element and see how the natural flow of the water creates a random pattern of dense groups set apart by thinned out speed zones. Either that or take in how many have emulated a mountainous face similar to the 2007 AGA winner by Chow Wai Sun. I think either approach could work better than symmetrically lining the stones up. You can always use low level/ mid ground plants to help accentuate a bordered path like you're after.

Don't get me wrong, lining the path is exactly what I did in my 65gl, but I tried to overlap them as randomly as possible while still creating a wall of stones, helps to have a bigger collection of stones to really achieve that. To be honest, my effort didn't really turn out as planned and I've never been totally happy with it.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

do you have a link to show me what you mean by random, I know it shouldnt be aligned, but you know, I dont want it all over the place, lol. If you give me a link, I can work on the tank when I get back from skool later.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I found the link and wow!!! I believe u meant this tank?:










well, anyway, I wish I could do that, I could if the wood was all in 1 direction, but I dont know how to do it if the wood is to the right and left merging. I could possibly move the scape to 1 side, What do you think?


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## nate_mcnasty (Mar 11, 2008)

i was going to say the same thing as jaidexl maybe useing a diiffrent color sand instead of lining with rocks like that

i still think your tank looks great just trying to give a second opinion the choice is all up to you and you make it the way you want it


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Well, what he basically did is place stones randomly in the face of the hill. The hill, I believe, is mainly substrate, so the stones are just accents. The key to the mountain look is not the direction it goes in, but simply having some rock showing through low growers like HC or UG etc. And if you look at an actual mountain, you can see how random the peaks are, yet uniform in there own way. You could pull it off in your scape by building them up under each wood stand in clusters, with the help of some substrate, and low growing plants in between each rock or cluster.

If I were you I would start by leaving the stones in the general area you have them in, but go down the line and push a few together here and there, kick a few out a few inches, topple some over, lean some up against the wood at an angle, etc. Pretend you're an earthquake or something, don't pay too much mind that you're scaping a tank or the outcome can become more uniform. Just keep imagining small tufts of plants between them as well, what you do now has to work together with everything else in the end.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

the only problem is that humans are incapable of true random-ness. the subconscious will always make a pattern, and that means that conscious mind wont even notice it. so you may not intend to make a pattern, and cant see a pattern but everyone else will (you will to if it is pointed out).


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

k guys, no HW today absolutely, I will move substrate and make 2 hills. If I choose, I might try 1 hill, I test it out, hopefully water wont become too cloudy, we'll see how it goes.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

k guys, moved the substrate and took out the wood+rocks. IT is sooooooooo cloudy right now, I will do a nearly 90% water change and rescape the wood+rocks to 1 hill and make the flow more natural.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

when refilling do it slow or youll just make it worse.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yea, it doesnt matter right now, still emptying. Should I scape after or before refill?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

BEFORE (kinda duh! sorry, couldnt keep from writing this)
if you do it afterwards you will make the water cloudy again.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I'll post pics b4 water so u can actually see. lol.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

alright, thanks.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

*new hardscape seems empty on right side*























































has more flow to it, but feels empty. Any recommendations?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

keep it. you are making a common mistake, you are forgetting you will have plants in there. you NEED empty space so you have somewhere to plant. i personally like that kind of hardscape, i have a similar one myself, but with even less wood. if you want to see i have a journal in the photo album.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

will check later, got to go finish 1/2 practice on violin quick to fill tank.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

by all means go right ahead, this is a forum not a chat room, you arent excpected to anounce when you leave.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

The rocks look a lot better now, I like the negative space between them, i could just see some HC bubbling out of there. You can always adjust them here and there in the future too.

If you plan to grow a bushy stem plant in the back corner, keep in mind those twigs and stones in the back left, behind the big Y shaped stick, will most likely be hidden by the plant, really any stone behind the wood scape will most likely disappear after the plants grow in. So you can probably use those elsewhere, maybe add to the stone pile up front and stick a few more twigs outward, or even use them on the right side to get back closer to what you had. I like the one sided look too, either way looks good IMO.


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## nate_mcnasty (Mar 11, 2008)

lookin great can't wait to see plants in there


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## SeaSerpant (Feb 20, 2008)

It looks great,
Gah i wish i could hardscape!


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## Ozymandias (Jan 17, 2008)

really looks good and i must say i like the look with all the wood on one side. this should free up more space for plants and allow a couple different plant scapes


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

thanx everyone!!!!!!!!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

That's looking really nice, fish- I definitely like the current hardscape quite a bit! roud:


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

Thank you!!!!! If the tank clears later, will get a pic up, if not, will update 2morrow.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

guyz, the left looks too empty, might move it back, but have 2 islands facing 1 direction. I DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO!!!!!!!!


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

k everyone, it hasnt cleared up, so after school I will decide whether or not to move wood and rocks. If I decide to, I will tell you, it just seem too barren, I will try and make the wood span all the way accross, or have it centered, like this:










this tank ranked 6th in the entire world for best nature aquariums.


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## mario_r (Mar 16, 2008)

you probably want to remove the drop checker before you accidentally broke it >.>


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

please, please, please plant the tank and let it grow in, then move the wood if you are still unsatisfied. its easy to move a hardscape. and its a very good scape. having wood going along the whole span of the tank looks like a wall and is often too abrupt because its up to the surface, or almost, right from the foreground. when its like that you can build up to it.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

either way, gotta do water change, since it will be empty, will try some things.

peace,

Nick


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

took out the dreop checker. Show me some scapes of the wood positioning you think would look best. the pic I posted about 7 hrs aago, at the bottom of page 13 is my favprite. Or the APC aquascaping contest 1st place, they are my favorite, post ur favorite tank, and the wood scape, so I get an idea of an imitation/improvisation I should make.

thanks again,

Nick


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

bump, opinions?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

seems like I am talkin to myself. anyway, I made a scape, didnt add rocks yet, but I got some pics, here nightcrew:




























TADA!!!!!! wat u think?!?!?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I personally liked the last one better, but then assymetrical scapes are always my fav.

If you're going for the look in that last scape pic though, I think what you have now is a really good start...

In the end, fish, you're the one that will be looking at it and so it needs to be something you'll be happy with.

Sleep on it, and see what you think tomorrow is my advice?


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## resowner92 (Jul 23, 2007)

i also like the last one


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yea, the last one was good, but I think it was too far to the left, a little bit more to the right, and I think it will be nice. I'll wake up early 2morrow and try around some scapes, I will post pics of the scapes I make.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

By the time you are done messing with the scape, you aren't going to have any AS left. Just what appears to be chocolate pudding.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

this will limit your background size, and the background is also algae control. however, do what you want. tanks need to show their owners individuality.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

Biscuitslayer, I know what you mean, I am trying to hurry and find a balanced scape so the AS doesnt powderize. It is sooooooooo easy to crumble. I'll try something that starts from the left, but stretches far across the tank.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

k, this is what I came up with:





































tank is very dirty, I will clean it when filled up


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I still liked it over more to the left, but I think that could work?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

the one to the left had more flow, but this has more balance, so I guess you have to lose some to win some.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

balance and symmetry arent the same. however, vals will look good behind the wood and if i remember right, they are in you setup


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

which type of val is from SA?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

Vallisneria americana is from america, despite what the plant profile here says. but i dont know where.


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## NeonShrimp (Mar 9, 2006)

fishman, that looks great so far. I almost wish the wood had some live leaves on them so it would seem more natural, maybe tying plants to them will do the trick. marko is right Vallisneria americana (Jungle vals) are from northern and central South America.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

wat SA plants could I tie to driftwood? I dont recall there being any.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I know it is too early to tell, but I am nervous how this tank will turn out, after all, it is my first scape.


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## NeonShrimp (Mar 9, 2006)

fishman9809 said:


> wat SA plants could I tie to driftwood? I dont recall there being any.


I can't either, it can be difficult with a pure SA scape. You have a pretty good idea of what you want so that's a plus:thumbsup:


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I am planning on having Stargrass, Echinodorus Parviflorus 'tropica', echinodorus tellenus, Amazon Frogbit, and Possibly moss if I can find any, the tank will be rather boring as there will only be greens, no purples, reds, or anything else.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

red plants arent that common in nature. hence, amano doesnt use too much of them and often leaves them out entirely. he shuns any gardenlike atributes (well western style anyway), so his are usually almost all green. despite this he is the aquascaping authority. 

fish will be your color. and as for moss, try some moss from your backyard. chances are it has a submerged form, and its closely related to a SA moss. otherwise, i think fissidens moss is from the americas, not sure though.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I might get X-Mas moss since it is found in SA, although scapers are unsure of ther original location of it, it might come from SA, or be invasive, anyway, I will try it, does it attach onto driftwood like other mosses?


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## NeonShrimp (Mar 9, 2006)

Yes Christmas moss will attach I know this too well and so does my sponge filter and heater:icon_roll


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

lol, I'll try it, does it kinda grow upwards and float and give a look like Flame moss does?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

no i think it grows outwards like java moss, taiwan moss, and most other mosses.


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## NeonShrimp (Mar 9, 2006)

It will grow along the branches in the same direction that you tie/position it in. And outward as marko pointed out.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

k, which plant do you think I should get first to start off the tank?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i usually plant most of the plants (or all of them) around the same time. they arent fish and dont care about ammonia in the water (unless it reaches monstrous levels) or nitrites. so plant away.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

well, I'll try and order them 2day, the thing is, the echinodorus tellenus is being shipped to me for free by a guy I know, but he hasnt been online anywhere recently, so I dont know whats goin down.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Are you going with the regular E. tenellus or 'narrow'?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

narrow, y? do you know any south american plant that looks like HC?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

HC? No?

I was asking about the E. tenellus 1) b/c I didn't know what size you wanted (the 'narrow' stays about 2-3" tall but the regular gets about 5-6"tall) and 2) if you want some 'narrow' my offer still stands


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

so u dont know any plants from SA that look HC? I want a fine carpet with HC looks


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Where's marselia minutia from? (being too lazy and sleepy ATM to look, myself LOL)


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i'll check now.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

the only SA carpet plants i can think of are chain sword and micro sword.


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

Almost a month and 234 posts later and still no water in the box. I guess rome wasnt built in a day either...  Nice sticks.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

at least he got a lot of people interested. nobody ever comes veiws my logs, maybe its because i only start them the day i put the plants in. i may do something with my eclipse three around september if my plants dont start growing better, maybe i should start a log now.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

Thanks for tremendous complements. The first one from Buck made me smile, lol. I am Italian  . I might get some plants on Tues/Wed, and the Fluval 204 will probably come on either thurs/fri. The plants the guy is sending me are stargrass, x-mas moss, and possibly a small sword he has, he has had it for a while and it has stayed small, so hopefully it is a small sword and doesnt grow. With the Fluval, he will ship some more of those lovely rocks I have, but bigger size, or possibly he might break them up again so it would be easier to find a good sized box. I need some purigen though, the tank should have cleared at least a little since last night, but its the same, purigen will help it along nicely!!!


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

carbon might actually be better for get rid of the cloudiness. purigen is best for biochemicals, not little peices of almost microscopic rock; wheras carbon bonds to a whole bunch of stuff also, so its good chemical filtration, but the surface is full of tiny wholes that may be just the right size for silt getting stuck in them. purigen will help later though against algae outbreaks better then activated carbon.

i would reccomend getting the plants after the filter. it helps for you to set up the filter first so you can see where you can plant what due to flow, and how to best hide the intake (outake shouldnt be too hidden, or its flow is blocked, but i doubt anything will grow right in front of it anyway).


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

the reason the plants are coming first is because the dude I am getting the plants and flter from, is moving back and fortha dn cannot ship from work, so it is expensive, lol. I used activated carbon, but it doesnt seem to help.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

well, you dont have a filter. nothing will do much good just sitting there.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I have a filter, but its HOB. I have higher grade activated carbon, from a Marineland filter cartridge. I am putting that in, lets see if that helps.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

you may not notice a big change, actually you probably wont even notice a change at all. if you do it will be minimal. nothing much to do but wait.

in my experience, cloudiness from gravel (granted i never used AS) goes away faster if you just shut off the filter and let it settle. if you dont notice enough of an improvement by tomorrow, shut everything off before you leave home and when you come back there should be some progress. 

also, please tell me you have planting foreceps/tweezers/tongs.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i have regular tweezers, but they are not the long kind, just like regular tweezers.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

ok thats good enough (will be annoying for you, but better then nothing). because if you went digging with your fingers in the AS while planting you would kick up a HUGE amount of dust.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yea, maybe I can see if my connection (goalcreas), has any tweezers.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

theyre expensive, so if you are still on a small budget dont try. if you convinced your parents to pay for "the supplies" then tweezers are a neccissary item, without which you cant do anything, and the regular kind are of course not good enough (if they need specific reasons just tell me, i can think of a dozen or so)


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

lol, ok, anyway, I still need pygmy chain sword and amazon frogbit, so hopefully my dad lets me get revolutionmoneyexhange.com, so I can buy those from the forums here from other people who have it, since you get 25 free. lol.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

25 free? thats pretty good.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yea, but I dont think he wants me doing it. well, I hope he does, so I can order today and get plants soon.


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## goalcreas (Nov 18, 2006)

I like it better more to the side then when it was more in the middle.
I like that it can leave an open space for schooling fish.:thumbsup:


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yea, but then it would have room to make an interesting aquascape.


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## goalcreas (Nov 18, 2006)

fishman9809 said:


> yea, but then it would have room to make an interesting aquascape.


Huh? is that a question or comment.
Would it have room, yes. it is nice to have open area's with ground cover and some mid ground plants towards the back IMO


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

well, I'm not gonna move it again, more crap will get stirred up.


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## Justbeginningfish (Mar 28, 2008)

I got some reptile feeding tweezers from petco for 5.99, the work great for planting small stuff and are way easier than using small ones.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I got my contact to send me some tweezers!!!!! yay!!!!


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

got a couple questions, but first, must tell you, I am not going to keep schooling fish. Only a pair of Rams, and maybe 9 otocinclus vittatus. 

all occasioanlly get trapped in the Llanos. Now, for the questions:

I need to make sure these plants can stand Ram temperature (in my tank 84):

Heteranthera Zosterfolia (Stargrass)
Echinodorus Tellenus (Pygmy Chain Sword)
Echinodorus Parviflorus 'tropica' (Dwarf Sword)
Limnobium laevigatum (Amazon Frogbit)

and I also need to know if otocinclus vittatus can survive 84 degrees.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

84 will probably be too much for ottos, and a lot of plants. however, i have kept rams in temps of 24.5*C (76*F), and they paired and did just fine. they didnt breed, but you should have breeding on the top of your list when you are just getting started with a species, espcially if its your first fish (especially fish that would need food cultures for their fry to survive).


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I have to find a oto from the orinoco that can hold the higher temperatures of 80 or higher. Rams color up a lot better in hotter water. I have kept other fish, just not in a PT. if I make it a species only tank, breeding is my top priority. So the plants I listed wouldnt survive in the 80+ temperture? That sux.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

now im not sure about it, but i dont think so. i know moss doesnt like above 80, but i dont know about the rest.
they color up better, but they would do good and look good at 78, and so would otos and every plant i know of.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

dang it, I'll try 80, maybe they'll be fine with 80, lets hope, hope.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

plants should be, and Otocinclus vittatus would do good.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I am going to set up a WTB ad soon, for the Amazon Frogbit. unfortunately I only have 6 bucks, so I am pretty darn sure I cant get anything unles it is RAOK'ed. then I also need the Echinodorus parviflorus 'tropica' (from aquariumplants.net, and those are pretty expensive in my book.). I am getting 20 plants of tellenus, so I am set on that. and I ordered X-mas moss comin 2morrow or Thursday. its 1 golf ball sized clump.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

is your water reasonably clear?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

clear enough to see, lol. it is now foggy. not muddy lookin, enough to see, hopefully with the canister next week or end of this week it will go away.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

idk if my testing kit stupid or not, but it says my Ammonia is 3 ppm, sounds kinda not right, but anyway, is that safe for plants?


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## Ozymandias (Jan 17, 2008)

yes that fine plants will not be affected


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## Ozymandias (Jan 17, 2008)

if any thing it will help the cycle


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

Ozymandias said:


> yes that fine plants will not be affected


with wat? the temperature? if so, yes, I figured that out, its the otos that I am thinkin about now, maybe I'll go with max 82.



Ozymandias said:


> if any thing it will help the cycle


wat will help it cycle?

I feel clueless, lol :hihi:


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

he is saying that the ammonia will not hurt the plants.. and the ammonia will help the tank cycle.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

k, was confused there. 

plants still left to purchase (I am screwed, I have 11 bucks, lol):

Amazon Frogbit (maybe 7 plants to get started)
Stargrass (I have a little coming, but not enough, maybe 8 more stems)
Echinodorus Parviflorus 'tropica' (maybe 7-8 plants.)

I am screwed with the money I have, not nearly enough.


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## Ozymandias (Jan 17, 2008)

wish i could help you out on the plants and yes i was talking about the plants and ammonia before (though i was refuring to the fact that the plants would help with the ammonia)


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

its ok, I work for my money.  So I should be able to buy plants soon, I am getting a lot anyway. The plants all together I estimate would cost about 30-35 bucks for all the rest, but you never know, the Tropica Sword is not seen often, might be more expensive.


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## resowner92 (Jul 23, 2007)

hurry and get the money i want to see the tank


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Last I looked AquaBotanic had the tropica swords for about $3 each.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

if I go to the SFBAAPS swap meet, I might be able to get some, for free. YAY!!!!


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

hah, get all you can for free and keep it all alive in at least tiny quantities so you can always propagate.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i'll try, I want to see how many stems the guy has up for free, hopefully he has like 7 plants.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

any plants arrive yet?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

idk, my dad got a box, but it is big and bulky and weighs a ton. It might be either the filter or the rocks, we will see, he should be home soon. The suspense is incredible.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

well, youll see. sucks that you cant open packages that you know are yours; unless your dad also orders from bigals, aquabotanic, aquaforestaquarium, etc.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yea, he'll be back soon, we'll see. MUHAHAHAHA, lol


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## resowner92 (Jul 23, 2007)

any updates?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

got the fluval 204!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

great, now you have a filter. even though i like ehiem, i hear fluval is a tough competitor.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

it is, its a fantastic filter, by the way, is there any other DIY Co2 formulas besides yeast? my parents dont get any for a while.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

you need some kind of harmless biological starter (thats how it works, if you want me to tell you the full process i can, but its long and i dont want to clog your thread if you already know it.). yeast is the best commercially available one.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I'll just use yeast, pics will be up soon, I tied the X-mas moss to the driftwood.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

k, here are the pics:


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

can we see it with the light on (like in the morning when it comes on)? you do have the light right (how many watts btw, i forgot and dont feel like looking for the page)?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

uh, I only had 1 of the fixtures on at the picture, I forgot the other, lol.

I have a problem, my tank is 86.6 degrees, cant cool down enough. I might try and put a bunch of ice in the filter, to cool it down, but it prolly wont help.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

there are only 2 long term solutions:
-cooling equipment (in a tank that size it usually means chiller)
-AC

check your heater, maybe its just set too high (hope so). also moss doesnt like heat that high so try and solve the problem fast. floating ice will work, but only for a few hours.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I am going to try an run fans, but I need to find 1 first, maybe a comp fan, my bro has a lot of comp stuff, the heater used to be set too high, so maybe the water is just still maintaining the heat. The moss came in our heat wave, so the package was about 120 degrees when I opened it, VERY hot, but plants came fine and look beautiful.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

fans are not enough for my 6 gallon, i still needed an iceprobe (its a chiller/fan crossover). they work for 1 or 2 degrees (your tank better then others since the surface:volume ratio is high so a lot of evaporation will occur). if you need anything more then that in summer, save up for a month and get a chiller or something unless you can give ice hourly, or get a small AC unit just for the room and set it to maintain 80 (the water should be around 78 then, its always a bit cooler then the room temp unless heated).

hate to break it to you, but plants take a bit of time to rot so they could be dead. if they are still fine by noon they are alive though.


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## roybot73 (Dec 15, 2007)

Still got the cloudy water, huh?
I don't get it, neither of my tanks _ever_ clouded up like that...


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

well at least there is less, now its just like almost-gone-flourite, not mud. i never had a fluval but im guessing there is a fine filter pad similar to those of ehiem and that should help the AS problem.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

well, I believe it was the filter, right after i got the canister, everything cleared up. the reason it was so cloudy in that pic was because I wiped the AS sediments off the driftwood. the moss might be dead, but only a few leaves show yellow, dying color, hopefully that will go away. the TINY little thing I got of tenellus seems fine, so it'll take time to see. I successfully lowered the tank temperature to 81.7 with ice cubes and a ice pack for lunches.


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## Ozymandias (Jan 17, 2008)

ice should work, but it is defiantly hard to keep a steady temperature with it (keep having to add it and such) have you tried getting some of your brother computer fans those should help alot also (basically a line of 80mm x 80mm should work) though you probably will get alot of evaporation in the tank.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Good thing you want rams in this tank!


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

ok, I can keep the temp at about 82 with both the fan and heater on to keep the temp exact, but the power prices will be expensive.

the only fish that cant stand in 82 degrees is the otocinclus vittaus, instead I am going with the sturisomo tenuirostre:

sturisomo:










ok, also, I need to pick a pencilfish, which looks nicer:

nannostomus anduzi (1.6 cm):









or nannostomus unifasciatus (3.8 cm):


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

seems the sturisomo picture did not work, let me try again:


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

dang it
it doesnt work, here's the link:

http://www.planetcatfish.com/images/full/loricariidae/sturisoma/tenuirostre/2.jpg


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

the link doesnt work, its not your fault though the PHP on the page is faulty.

Otocinclus vittatus can survive in 28C which is 82.4F.

Nannostomus anduzi looks way nicer if you ask me. plus they are smaller which means that you can get more and the more you have the more comfortable they will feel.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yea, but I kinda like the sturisomo's funny look. either way, fish is a way down the road, so I have time. if I get anduzei, here is the stocking:

1 pair of Rams
11 anduzei
either 1 sturisomo or 7 otocinclus vittatus.

and plants;

x-mas moss
stargrass
echinodorus parviflorus 'tropica'
echinodorus tenellus
amazon frogbit

the deal with the frogbit, well, idk wat happened, the person never got back to me, we'll see though.


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

Ahhh , the box has water in it !  

You may want to tie that moss down a bit more to get good contact to the wood or you will be chasing it around the tank soon. Also, I vote for the nannostomus unifasciatus. I look forward to seeing this tank progress ! roud:


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

lol, yup!!! I'll tie it more and I will decide later on fish as it is a major part of the tank and I dont want it to be rushed. i hate the fungus that comes from manzanita, looks ugly and is a pain in the a$$.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Out of those two pencils, I like N. anduzi best. I really like N. espei, though.

I think you may end up needing to be a little pragmatic about your fish selection, though- base it more on what's available.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yea, both are rare, i am about to ask Ocean Aquariums in SF, they have rare fish and are near me, so I'll ask if they ever have the fish I listed.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

did you boil the wood to sterilize it?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

no, but I soaked it in the sun outside for 5 days, so I thought that might have been enough.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

soaking in the sun does not sterilize. the temp isnt high enough and water blocks UV radiation. the fungus came with the wood, it just didnt grow that well until it was put underwater (fungus love moisture, it doesnt get more moist then underwater).


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

well, I heard it dissipates over time.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i hope so, but i never had it so i cant say.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I poured boiling water over my wood, soaked it for 4 weeks, and still had massive amounts of fungus that just now is dying and starting to fall off... It's annoying but pretty much harmless, though.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

any updates fishman? you kinda vanished on us here.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

nah, didnt vanish, just not much to update on, I'll pot some pics, in a few, some plants are comin in 2morrow and friday FYI


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

check it:




























ghetto heating and cleaning, lol:









stupid fungus :









more fungus!!!!;


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i like it all except the fungus.


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## Ozymandias (Jan 17, 2008)

looks good must say you are doing a good job, don't know about the fungus, the only wight fungus i've had to deal with did not get that big


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i have not seen yeast in an aquarium, but i think it is white. try making something to separate gas from liquid in your CO2 (the liquid in there is full of spores).


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## Ozymandias (Jan 17, 2008)

usally the yeast forms of the defuser not anywhere else in the tank (at least in my care). but a gas separator/bubble counter wouldn't hurt


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

its not that, it comes with most manzanita wood, when it is soaked, it is not exposed to tru light, but when it is, it grows a natural fungus, after time it will fall off itself. good news!!!!! Got the stargrass and planted!!!! its very short now, so not much to show, but it looks cool!!!!!


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## SeaSerpant (Feb 20, 2008)

Not much to show. YOU GOT PLANTS. Post some pics ASAP we all want to see


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

stargrass pics:


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Is that Christmas moss? Looks like Java moss to me, but it may just be the pic...


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yea, its x-mas moss, more plants mite be comin 2morrow.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

ok, not much to say about the stargrass.

about the first pic: dude, learn the focus of your camera, if it focuses on the closes object, dont take a pic from that distance (zoom so the wood is out of the frame). its actually a nice pic, but it doesnt show any detail of the stargrass at all. i know its hard with a bad camera (trust me, i use a camcorder; YEAH), but if a pic comes out like that its no need to post it.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I knew that, lol, it was just a nice pic, so I posted it, lol  I know how to focus it, just wanted the nice pic.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

oh, ok.

is the water clearing up slowly cause i dont think your plants are going to apreciate shade, and your fish the dust in their gills.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yes yes. It just always seems you ask for pics right after planting, so its always cloudy. and also, its my wall behind it, looks kind of foggy, in reality, if you were here, the tank would be clear.


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## SeaSerpant (Feb 20, 2008)

so any new plants?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

nah, the amazon frogbit unfortunately did not come. I was lookin forward to it all day, but tomorrow is field day at skool, so the day will go quick and my plants will probably come


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## Digital (Apr 4, 2008)

That wood is probably soft thats why you're getting the white algae. Throw a pleco in there!  

An exotic.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i never kept plecos, can they stand such high temps? also, dont they grow big?

any frogbit yet? also, is any growth happening on the stargrass? its probably not enough to take a picture, but if you notice some new leaves in person already its a pretty good sign.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I see a few very bright green leaves, possibly new? anyway, I just learned that both the frogbit and the tenellus are being shipped on tuesday, should come around thursday. ONly the Clown plecs come from the Llanos, and live in 84 degree water and they only grow up to 5 inches I beleive.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

5" is a bit big in my opinion for the tank (nobody comment on the boesemani in my 20L, they are a bit under 4" :angryfire)


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

not really, its not a school, its 1 fish that barely moves or comes out, somebody at the planetcatfish website, actuall y a mod, sed I could house the sturisoma, which is larger than 6 inches I believe.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

now thats a big fish. i guess you could, then, like i mentioned, the only catfish ive kept were otos so im not expert.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

Im keeping otos anyway. Otos are a much better cleaning squad.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i agree. and they are such active little fish too, always sucking on the glass and scurrying aroung. their swimming pattern is cool to see, its snakey.


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## SeaSerpant (Feb 20, 2008)

on your post #336. remember not all mods are right.  Has it cleared up enough for a front pic?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

actually yes, but I found a snail from the stargrass , ARGHHHHHH!!!! I tried to get it, but it fell into the AS, and I stirred it up  I hate the stupid fungus, I wish tehre was a way to hurry up and get rid of it.


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## goalcreas (Nov 18, 2006)

Full Tank Shot please:thumbsup: 

Looking good but would like to see the whole thing now that there are some plants in there.

Cool deal dude.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

dont worry about the snail, when i had rams, i didnt see any eggs (which meens it ate the eggs). snails arent a problem unless their population explodes, and they preffer algae over plants (easier to bite off).

just guessing but, the snail had a grey body and a grey shell (with the shell maybe slightly paler).


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

no, it was the invasive ones, the small ones with clear shells. maybe I'll see it when I do water change.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

anything new? any growth? oh, and how is the tank cycling?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yes, growth, but unfortunately, some stargrass died, now I have 3 stems, but they are showing new leaves. 

I got Tenellus yesterday, and I planted, but I think tank is still too cloudy for nice pics. I want to get rid of that stupid fungus, makes tank look HORRIBLE. I wish there was a way to speed up the self removal process. Unfortunately, I did not recieve my Amazon Frogbit, so it is stuck over the weekend. Hopefully it wont die. I also got new rocks and removed the old rocks, looks a lot better now. I mite go to Aqua Forest Aquarium today, wat do you think I need to buy? Nothing?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i hope it survives, but if it doesnt thats ok, you can just get something else .

nah, the temp is ok this time of year unless you are down south, but there every building has AC (and i dont think they would leave the packages in the truck, they would probably put them somewhere safer).


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

so do you think I need anything from AFA?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

like equipment? then no. but if you can actually GO to their store, then i dont know what else they have. im in NJ.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

well, maybe some extra driftwood or rocks or sumthin. and if they have my plants, then I'll get some.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

you have enough rocks/wood. just maybe plants. and a fish maybe if you have everything and your tank is done cycling (what stage are you at with your cycle?).


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

hmmmmmmm, I dont think I am done cycling, but I will see plants. I got to go to a concert in 5 mins, so I'll check the levels of nitrites, nitrates, ammonia, etc. when I get home. 

later peeps,
Nick


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I didnt do the tests yet, but I went to AFA, they didnt have the sword I wanted, so I didnt get anything. I need to still buy 5 stems of Stargrass, and 5 plants of the tropica sword. 

I wiped off some fungus, so it looks better, but I clouded tank a little, heres a pic:

crap, was about to take pics and found out battery was out, sry to trail u along. anyway, I left some holes in the rocks for some bacopa austalis. I was looking online, most sites say up to 12 inches, yet I see many people using it as ground cover. are there any ground covers like HC from South America?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

microsword and pygmy chain sword (i like microsword better, but thats just personal prefrence).


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

here are some pics up:

FTS:








Co2:








Stupid fungus:








More fungus:








New Tenellus:








A couple stems not doing good:








Moss that is making a recovery:








Moss that is not:








Lot of tenellus:








Three small, recovering stargrass stems:


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

Okay, nobody saw my thread becuase of the stupid database error, but anyway, thank god thats over. Just for everyone to know, I pulled out all the wood and the moss. the wood fungus is really getting on my nerves, so tonight, I am going to boil the wood. Even though the moss had FINALLY attached to the wood, I pulled it off, not only so I could boil the wood, but so I could pull of all the dead parts of the moss.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

since your stargrass is so small, you may want to pluck a few out and let them float. stems seem to care a lot more about light and their leaves then nutrients and roots. and since those are the tips i doubt they have roots yet anyway, so they dont care if they are in the substrate or not. however for most stem plants, if the plant segment is shorter then an inch, or has less then 3 nodes, it will almost certainly die no matter what.

your water looks cloudy, could that be blocking needed light. i say needed because if i remember right you have 1 18w bulb (t5 though) which is pretty low light. and star grass likes medium light (like 2.5-3.5 wpg).


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

no, I have 4 18 watt bulbs. anyway, I am going to boil wood, and the stargrass will probably get uprooted anyway. so lets see


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

oh then its different. i thought you had 1, thats what it said on the first page; i assumed it changed, but i didnt want to look through 24 pages. then you have PLENTY of light. more then my 20L which grows nearly everything i put in there.

well, i still suggest uprooting half; to cover all the bases. 

didnt you boil it before? if you did, it wont fix anything; well itll get rid of the fungus temporarily, but it could come back. but i dont know much about driftwood problems, since i get all my wood from an LFS that keeps it in their tank, and nobody else buys their wood so its in their tanks for monthes. when i get it, no tannins, no fungus, nothing but wood. i do need to boil it to get rid of diseases and algae though, but boiling is very effective for both.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i never did boil it, and I took it out yesterday, so I am boiling it tonight, and what do you mean uprooting it half? I dont want to have to wait a LONG time for it to go away, it is very ugly.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

not "uprooting it half", but "uprooting half".
i mean leave 1/2 of the stems planted, and the other 1/2 of them floating.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i only have 3 so I guess I'll float 2?

I still havent got my frogbit!!! I hope it didnt get lost.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

nah, i suggest floating only 1 (but the healthiest one); because your light is pretty good even if it were regular t8 or pc, but its t5 so its even better.

if you dont get it tomorrow, its probably gonna come dead.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

lets hope it comes 2day or tomorrow!!!!!!!!!!:help:


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## goalcreas (Nov 18, 2006)

Nick, be very careful when planting and moving your hardscape around.
Aquasoil doesn't take to kindly to being roughed up much.
It can turn to mush if you are poking at it and bashing rocks around and stuff.
You can rearrange all you want, just be gentle with it.

Looking good BTW, once it starts filling in, you will be very happy.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i hope so, thanks man, I cant wait till I order some stem plants


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

which other stems are you ordering? the only other stem i know is from SA is anacharis; which while hardy, looks like plastic.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i ordered Hygrophila sp. 'Porto Velho' (very short stem) and some stargrass, I am also planning on keeping 1 or 2 of the following:

Bacopa sp. 'Pantanal'
Hygrophila sp. 'Pantanal'
Polygonum sp. 'Sao Paulo'

they are quite rare, but worth it, look them up on the APC plant finder, they are very beautiful. I cant find out why they are rare, they are not that hard to grow and they are quite beautful


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

wow the Polygonum sp. 'Sao Paulo' is beautiful, it looks really cool. 

maybe its just taking time for people to get it and start propagating it and selling it. look at HC for example, it used to be virtually unheard of 3 years ago, it was hard to get 2 years ago, now my LFS carries it.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

my plant supplier and used equipment supplier (goalcreas), has some getting grown for him during his move, he sed I can buy some from him, which is great, the purple color is amazing, hopefully with my tank, it will thrive with the high light and the low pH


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i hope it does great. it really looks awesome.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Starting to shape up Fish, hope you get some stems in there before the algae kicks into gear roud:


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yup, lets hope sooooooo 

i hate algae, soooooooooo annoying


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

YOU hate algae?!?!
as of yet you dont know what algae really is. algae is not a geen tint to your glass. it is when everything is cover in green fuzz. it is long green strands over a foot long curling around your tank waving in the current covering everything. it is bushel on bushel of pink fuzz growing on EVERYTHING. it is a carpet of dark green slime that covers everything and releases toxins which can damage your fish. algae, is when i covered my eclipse 3 with black construction paper and then an additional garbage bag and unplug the light after i moved my betta to my 20L. you dont know algae. algae is not something to be called annoying, algae is something to be feared.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

lol, I got stargrass, toooons, idk if I can get anymore plants  I also got a couple stems of red cabomba free too


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

yay, good for you!
red cambomba is awesome, and your setup has enough light for it to live and grow well, but unfortunately it wont be a true red. espescially if its the species that starts with a "p" (cant remember the name right now), there are 2 species of red cabomba.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'd guess he probably got Cabomba furcata?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i hope he did. i used to have Cabomba piauhyensis (looked it up), its not impressive in color, you can barely tell the difference from regular cabomba (carolina is the regular kind right?) at 3.25 wpg with a 6.5 wpg noon burst in my 20L.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i believe I did, I will post pics later.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

here are some pics :

FTS:









The new Hygrophila sp. "porto Velho' I got today:


Cabomba  :


Lots o stargrass: 


All the new hygro bushes I planted:









Overhead stargrass:









I trimmed some of the tenellus leaves so they grew in more:









OK, news now, I got lots o new plants  but i am having trouble because the dust from the AS seems to have clumped together, then it accumulates on plants and blocks out lite, then plant leaves die. As you can see in the pics from old posts, if you looks from the top, the intake is on the back left and the outtake is on the frront left. As a result, the gunk sinks down on the tenellus, or goes to the intake, and gets caught by the stagrass, What do you guys think I should do to solve this problem?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

For some reason your FTS shot won't load properly on my puter?  

The plants look awesome though!

Next time you trim the E. tenellus you need to try and get as much of the leaf as possible- the leaf will typically die once trimmed anyways.

EDIT- oh there it went. Looks great! Do you have any Purigen in your filter? That would probably take care of those tannins.


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

first off.. I think it looks great. Nice aquascaping! I want to see the fish!


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i still have 2 plants to get, Echinodorus parviflorus 'Tropica' and the Amazon Frogbit, I will try to get the Tropica on the way by monday, but the frogbit is already sed to be shipped on monday. I will get purigen soon, but i might put a WTB ad, just for one small prepackaged 100 mL bag with the pruigen in it, since that will last me a while. I might get maybe 1 other plant, either Hygrophila 'Pntanal", Bacopa 'Patanal', Polygonum sp. 'Sao Paolo', or Rotala sp. 'Goias'. I'll post the ad since I got lotta money now due to some grades  4.0 for 3 yrs *cough cough*


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

nice cabomba, definately fructa not piauhyensis. the stargrass doesnt look too happy, a lot of folded leaves (folded is as good cut), but it should recover as this one looks reasonably taller then the other one. nice hygro, i think it will look good when thicker. it looks unorderly now, but plants always look that way when just planted before their growth is changed to be in flow with the tank.

what are your nitrite levels? im really curios on how your tank is cycling.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i can test all but the nitrates, for some reason, the nitrate kit doesnt wrk 

let me check quickly, i checked last on monday i think


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

hey, i was typing while you posted, i hate it when that happens!
you probably dont need purigen yet. also it can last for VERY long since you can renew it by giving it a bleach dip. just let it soak in water with very overdosed dechlorinator (like 3x the dose) to get rid of the bleach. it will eat away most of the biochemicals the purigen absorbed, but it might not react with all of them, so i still reccomend replacing them yearly, plus i didnt bleach my purigen yet so i dont know if maybe the bleach reacts with IT. good job on the grades though, im working hard for 3.6+ to get a pair of phelsuma laticauda and a setup all prepaid (wish me luck).


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i do wish you luck 

well purigen mite be best, cuz my parents wont szhut up, they are always like, that tank is dying, it is always so cloudy, they dont realize it takes time, lol.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If I were you I'd go ahead and order Frogbit and Tropica swords from AquaBotanic. Shipping is pretty reasonable, and it only ships from Oregon or Washington state (forget which) so should get to you pretty quickly.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

the frogbit at AB is reg frogbit, not amazon frogbit, and many people from my club (SFBAAPS) say that it is very bad, the owner is mean and that it is better to buy from other members. and I already have the amazon frogbit coming (gettin shipped on monday).


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

levels:

Ammonia:









Nitrites:


pH:


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## Ozymandias (Jan 17, 2008)

looks really nice (much better than it did before) cant say anything help full at this time other than grate tank


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

thanks man, i cant wait for some diff plants  This hobby is soooo money consuming, i have spent about 200, and i claculated all the stuff i need = about 400 AHHHH EEEEEEEK!!!!!!!


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## Digital (Apr 4, 2008)

Looks great man keep it up


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

ok so 0, ammonia and nitrites. that means your cycle is probably over. if it is, you can add fish (remember you have to do it little by little). but you will want a nitrate test kit, since you will need to use that at first to get a good water change routine going. its not the only thing you take out with the water, but its a good indicator. oh, and i know people say 10-20, but aim for 10 and DONT let it drop below. better 30 then 0 IME. higher levels can give you a few different algae, but too low levels and you get cyanobacteria and it is a lot harder to get rid of IME.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i also need to get a gH kit, i will prolly go today to get a nitrate kit, a gH kit, filter foam, and if i can find the small packages, purigen.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i suggest you get a small gh test kit. i find that your gh doesnt change much, and isnt nearly as important as ph or kh. also, do you have a kh test kit? if so, how did you find one with a combo of gh, kh. all the gh/kh test kits that i have seen come together.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

@[email protected] said:


> i find that your gh doesnt change much, and isnt nearly as important as ph or kh.


That's backwards info, Marko. Ph is about the most worthless hobby grade reagent on the market IMO unless you're using it in a DC standard, the measurement can mean a million different things, but does the user actually know what is happening? All KH represents is buffering capacity and is almost as much of a waste of time to dwell on as pH, unless you're trying to learn about it's relationship with GH and pH. GH is what dictates hard/soft water, fish actually care about that. 

read these links about chemistry 

Beginners

Advanced


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

no, i don thave one, so that makes it i need:
gH kit
kH kit
Nitrate kit
purigen
and filter foam


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

hmm, i see what you mean. however i have not yet noticed any change in gh in my tanks, but what you said makes me want to test it just in case (and i will). also i have never seen a simple way to change gh, though i have never looked, so all im saying is that it didnt jump out at me as ph changing did. but i guess that also makes your point that a lot of things change ph. but i have seen fish react a lot to ph changes. also, i know the test kits are crap, some of them use just metheyline blue (did i spell that right), but i use a probe. i think it works well as long as its calibrated regularly, but if you could tell me if you know how acurate they are i would apreciate it.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

It stays the same for you because you don't do any water changes with new source water with different parameters, it's when someone says, "hey, I read today that plants and tetras like soft water, so I'm going to use bottled water today", they pour it in, hardness plummets and fish start to float still, go pale, breath heavy, then die from osmotic shock. That's really the only time it matters at all, and it's the only time a ph change will kill a fish, all the other stuff that changes pH in our world is pretty much harmless.

The only time you really need to test it is when you are switching source water, or if you want to match parameters to a certain species' natural preference, which we all know doesn't really matter since the fish can acclimate to whatever and thrive as long as it doesn't fluctuate too much. So, matching change water is really the only time it's necessary, weather you're reconstituting RO or simply switching sources. An alternative to testing it then is to just add it in slowly so as to acclimate the fish properly. 

KH can change over time since bicarbs are very unstable, but most of us here at PT know there are enough folks running 0KH with no problems, sure it allows pH to fluctuate more or less, but there really isn't anything we do that can fluctuate pH besides aeration, CO2 injection, the long term affect from carbonic acids which is kept in check with water changes, and the unfortunate event that we might spike or plummet our hardness with new source water. The latter is the only one that can kill a fish.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

pH can be an indicator that something is going awry in the tank, and also certain parameters can be necessary if breeding livestock. IMO you do need to periodically check a tank's pH, and especially when establishing a new tank. A lot of things go into setting up new tanks (especially in regards to hardscape leeching issues) that could cause problems for livestock, especially when doing water changes and adding new livestock.

Once you understand your own water chemistry and have an established tank, however, the need to check your pH may go away entirely... but that only comes with enough experience under your belt to be able to tell from the LOOK of your fish, plants, etc that something is off.

There's a big difference IMO between giving advice to fairly new hobbyists with only a few years of keeping aquariums versus the types of issues that more experienced hobbyists are able to manage. That's not looking down my nose at new hobbyists- b/c I remember being there myself! - but erring on the side of advising caution, stability, and testing IMO is the same as "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

my pH wont go down!!! I have 6.8, but i want it to go to around 6.3-6.5 , my peat fine mesh bag ripped, now i have nothing to put it in


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

How about an updated pic?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Aren't you dosing CO2 on this tank?

Why do you want your pH that low?

I wouldn't worry about your pH at this point anyways- your AS can't have finished cycling yet...


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

not relly much goin on, no new plants, nuthin, jujst some dying stargrass leaves, and some new ones.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

if your fish do good in 6.5 they do good in 6.8. i have kept bettas (they like around 6.5) in water with a ph of 8 (my tap is whack with all the minerals and stuff in it). now people may think thats unhealthy, but that betta was around 3 years old when it died (cant say for sure since it was from petco); thats well beyond that average lifespan of the average pet betta.

also, once you have the tank fully stocked, your ph will go down somewhat (especially at night) because of all the respiration that will be going on.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

lauraleellbp said:


> IMO you do need to periodically check a tank's pH, and especially when establishing a new tank. A lot of things go into setting up new tanks (especially in regards to hardscape leeching issues) that could cause problems for livestock, especially when doing water changes and adding new livestock


Ahh, but here lies the problem for newcomers or people not totally familiar with pH or it's related elements. Far too often folks are confused by their pH results and don;'t even realize it, take the temporary rise from soda ash, or massive aeration right after a water change, how many times do we have to tell those folks it's nothing to worry about and they can leave the water set out for a day to watch how those additives precipitate. Only once have I read an account of the addition of non-degassed tap water going straight in at water change time and fish dying from it, and frankly I don't believe that guy really knew what the culprit actually was.

As far as decor leaching carbonates or hardness, there's no better test kit to watch for that then a KH and GH kit, IMO.

My other gripe about pH, so many sites with care profiles that aren't on the up and up as much as fishbase are listing an ideal pH per species. They fail to explain to people that the 5.0pH of a particular locale is a result of massive amounts of decaying matter, not overly ideal in our tanks as that would only result as a higher TDS, but mother nature can handle it in a big swamp or river. The fish care more about the mineral hardness of their natural locales so these sites would be doing us more justice by listing dH over anything (thank you fishbase).

Really all I'm saying is that people need to realize all the factors that go into shifting pH, and that a shift in hardness is really the only one that can kill our fish, so those tests shouldn't be ignored completely IMO until you understand what you're putting into your tank every week. Those of us that reconstitute our own source water don't have to waist our time testing but those using city tap aren't as lucky, things can change abruptly and without warning.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

so. whats happening? get anything new? growth? testing?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

some plants are rotting, if you have seen my name thus deficiency thread, you will see some pictures. most people say i have not enough micros, and toomuch light. so if i add pressurized, (im gettin it next week on Wednesday, yay!!!!!!) the problem should be fixed, with lessCo2 demand. 

i'll give u the link for the deficiency thread for some pictures:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/plants/67498-name-deficiency-fast.html

oh yea, my Co2 tank will be bought from a fire extinguisher place for 45 bucks already with Co2 and the reg is a Milwakee kit for 90 bucks including shipping and comes with:

regulator
needle valve
solenoid
10 ft Co2 proof tubing
and a bubble counter


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

well,that didnt wrk :

here's the link:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/plants/67498-name-deficiency-fast.html


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

sorry to hear that. it is probably that, or possibly a macro defficency. you have brand new AS so it should have all the micros you need for now for any plant with even just a few roots. also, macros dont include CO2. nutrients=vitamins, so you need more vitamins; CO2+water=food, beef does not count as a vitamin.
what are your nitrates?
are you dosing potassium?
do you have any clue as to how much phosphate you have?



fishman9809 said:


> the problem should be fixed, with lessCo2 demand.


no you wont lower the demand, just raise the amount of CO2 to meet it.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yea, thats wat i meant, lol. 

how do i check phosphates?

nitrates i think were 10ppm


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

nitrates are fine, great actually. phosphate test kits; i use one made from seachem. however, most people dont test that, and since you have no fish (and thus feed no fish food), you can check your municiple water supply records. they have (or should) have the levels of a huge amount of things, and they should be pretty acurate too.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

where can i see my water reports online?


i dont have pdf viewer, so i cant read those.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

wants your towns website (most towns have them). try a google search. or just tell me where the PDF is, ill see if i can open it and take a screenshot (its a useful thing to know).


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

when you get a chance, i highly reccomend you pick up a phosphate test kit. here is the one i use. the test kits i find very useful are the N tests (ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates), gh, kh, ph, and phosphate. i test those every time i test, and they can be pretty inconsistant. i find testing easier then guess and check (and algae) with just adding fertz.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

oh, i forgot guys!!!!!!!! I redid the tank, new plants and things, but i need to bleach my purigen, so i can get the water to clear. Im prolly getting some plants tomorrow!!!!!!!!!


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

MORE plants!? try fixing your perameters before you order any more. 

are you putting anything in the tank to maintain the nirtogen cycle (putting in stuff to rot)?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

no, just adding nitrates, and phosphates, just dry ferts. imunna have to drain the tank tomorrow and fix the dang issue of self-uprooting swords.

they wont stay down!!!!!!!!! and where they stay down, they take up all the room, so there is no room for stems.


wat do you mean adding stuff to rot?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

try some plant ties. they are the little lead wraps. stick it around the crown, and then plant it. after a few weeks when the roots are established, you can remove it. 

if you dont have anything decomposing and making ammonia for the bacteria to break down into nitrites and then nitrates, the colonizes will shrink, and tank become un-cycled.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i dont have any plant ties, tie rocks to the roots?

what can i add to rot in the tank?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

no no no. the ties are made of lead (they are heavy enough by themselves) its a pliable metal band that you wind around the plant. here is a pic:









fish food. put very very little. like 2-3 medium-sized flakes.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i doubt i'll be going to the lfs soon, so i cant use rocks?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

no burrying the crown may not be good. however, you could put a rock over some of the roots temporarily (but leave a thin layer of AS inbetween so when you remove the rock, it doesnt come back up).


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

wat is the crown?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

the place where the roots and leaves meet. it is where new growth happens and the most vital part of most plants that have this structure.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

ok, so since i mite get new plants tomorrow, i'll empty some water anyway to give me some visibility, this will also help me with the sword planting.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

visibility? your water is STILL cloudy?


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## roybot73 (Dec 15, 2007)

What are you using for media in your Fluval?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> visibility? your water is STILL cloudy?


YES!!!!!!!!!! I told you, I redid the tank and got rid of the dying plants!!!!!!!! I am going to restore the purigen today and tomorrow.

By the way, now that i added wat u sed, aka fish flakes, my tank smells nasty :icon_cry:



roybot73 said:


> What are you using for media in your Fluval?


i am using purigen (not currently), fluval prefilter media, fluval biomedia, and fluval foam. I was thinking of getting polishing pads, but they were out  .


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

how many did you add? you shouldnt add a lot. does it smell like the fish flakes or different? if it smells like fish flakes then you added too much.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> how many did you add? you shouldnt add a lot. does it smell like the fish flakes or different? if it smells like fish flakes then you added too much.


i found out wat it was the water that spilled from my tank onto the carpet, and thats wat gave the foul smell. I got the Milwaukee kit today, im going to call into the store in a few minutes to see if they have a tank in yet.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

thought so. it was to early for it really rot to that degree, and it would take a lot to rot enough to have a strong smell.

you are getting pressurized? GREAT!


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> you are getting pressurized? GREAT!


ic ant wait, becuz it is prolly the root of my problems.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

it could be. how do you plan on regulating it? will you use a timer, or a ph controller?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

wait, i dont understand what you mean?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

your CO2. you dont just hook it up and let it bubble constantly. you either put it on a timer (usually people have it turn on a little before the lights to get the CO2 into the tank, and turn off a little early too), or hook it up to a ph controller which you set up according to your kh. then it keeps your CO2 at a constant level, so long as you dont change your kh. whatever you do, i dont reccomend just letting it bubble into the tank uncontrolled all night long, or you may not have much left in the morning...


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I'll do a timer, i dont have the money for a pH controller. im going to call the plaec, hopefully they have the tank!!!!!


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

yeah, they are more costly then timers. and timers are fine. i had a timer for years, you just have to do ph tests a few times a day for a while to be sure you set it right. and then do it again if you substantially increase the mass of aerobic organisms.


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

man I cant believe I just found this thread. Looking good man. My next project is get a 1/2- 10 gallon rimless tank from glasscages and buy pressurized for it like what you have done. I can wait for my pressurized and I havent even bought it yet lol, I bet your dying over there lol


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yes, i am, but the thing is, i know why my tank is kind of failing!!!!!! the Co2 of DIY is inconsistent, but with pressurized, it will be even, and always the same amount being put out. cant wait til monday, it might be available then hopefully!!!!!!!!!!!


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## CLEVEsports420 (Apr 19, 2008)

Wow, 30 page thread, and still no fish... wow :icon_twis


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

actually, DIY isnt inconsistent until later. if you have a problem, its that you just dont have enough. in the long run however, pressurized is way better, so dont think its money wasted. its a great investment.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

pressurized is a thing that is always more consistent, more expensive, better for your plants, and overall worth it.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

yes it is. i wasnt disputing that. i was merely stating that at this point, the difference of consistancy isnt that big, and that the real affects would only happen later on with DIY.

yes of course it is worth it, thats why i called it "a great investment".


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

well, the HC in the tank grew yellow becuz of co2 shortage, and they need lots of co2, luckily, i have 2 dishes of emersed growth, so if those grow for me, i'll make money eventually, and be able to replant the HC


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

it is easy to grow emersed. it is growing emersed on my dirftwood, lol. as long as it is humid enough, it will do fine. submersed, however, is tricky (or i just suck with it).


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

it was getting a little color loss, i believe from lack of light, but i gave it more now.


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## torque6 (Jun 7, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> it is easy to grow emersed. it is growing emersed on my dirftwood, lol. as long as it is humid enough, it will do fine. submersed, however, is tricky (or i just suck with it).


apparently some useful from tom, im also growing my HC emmerse form now. 2 weeks, however have noticed the edges of the HC greying out. Otherwise, it looks fine.


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## SeaSerpant (Feb 20, 2008)

Hey anything new to post?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

well, i am almost finished planting a whole bunch of tenellus, lookin nice, but i got some teaser shots, like many people are doing now, roybot73 style


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

why cant ppl do it my way? take a load of shots with a bad camera and then upload every last one to jam up those people that have slow internet. 

the first pic is very artistic. but in the second you can see a few leaves of another plant, that dont look to hot.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yes, the expensive hygro leaves are melting, but i asked many people myself and they all responded, probably adjusting to the new change. PRESSURIZED!!!! 

should regrow. that 1st picture is the tenellus producing oxygen from photosynthesis. i have bubbling swords !!!! seriously, producing a stream of very fine bubbles, couldnt get a nice shot tho, they were in the back. if the ones in the front start, i'll get some pics .

the new tenellus i planted is the larger kind i beleive. oh well, looks like tall grass. the Rams will like swimming in it


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Fish, on the Tropica swords, the leaves that are clear towards the base of the leaf are in the process of dying and won't come back. If you go ahead and trim off those leaves, you'll encourage new growth. (Leaves that are clear only on the tips sometimes won't die off all the way, and I don't trim those unless there are plenty other healthy leaves on the plant.)

Are any of the E. tenellus I sent you doing OK? IDK if it might have been the shipping heat that did many of them in...


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

oh and are any of the plants actually spreading? the first few you got should be addapted, or almost there.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yes, the ones that are left are doing awesome, SUPER green 

about the tropica swords. most of the swords have lots of clear, like all the leaves, but the leaves are 1/2 and 1/2 not, if it gets wrse, i'll have to trim them, but hopefully not. when im done with the tall tenellus, i'll give u guys a full tank shot and some shots of the tropica swords.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> oh and are any of the plants actually spreading? the first few you got should be addapted, or almost there.


which plants? if the tenellus, yes, some have shot out lots of leaves, no runners yet tho. see, the hygros with melted leaves already have very small new ones growing in, so that must mean they are just adapting. good thing, they were like 19 bux for 7 stems


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

glad to hear that everything is getting better. i cant wait to see the whole tank. and im impressed that on your first tank you got a pressureized system.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Sounds like things are moving in a good direction, Fish! :thumbsup: 

Can't wait for the pics :icon_cool


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i hope u guys are pumped, cuz here are the pics!!!!

FTS:









Tank from the left:









tank from right thru the fields of green:









clear overhead shot:









stupid snails:









water is crystal clear:









there are 2 melting hygro bushes, here is 1, i have 2 other bushes, but they are VERY healthy:









healthy swords:









not so healthy swords:









stargrass growing!!!!!!!! :









cabomba furcata look s a lot nicer than this, it just closed, it was night time  :









CANT IDENTIFY THIS MOSS, PLEEZ HELP  :


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## resowner92 (Jul 23, 2007)

i like it but the tennulas looks a little big and i think u got taiwan moss


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i hope its x-mas 

i want the tenellus kinda high, im thinkin of titling this tank, "the pastures of green, or "the tall grasses", or "the meadows of bliss (or wonder).

wat do you guys think?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I think the regular E. tenellus needs to be grouped together in the background, and leave just the 'narrow' in the foreground.

I also think that looks like Java/Taiwan moss...?

(The willow moss I tried to get at one point a while back also turned out to be Java LOL)


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

basically all of it is regular, lol, not much narrow  the narrow is on the left in front of driftwood, to kind of give it a wave shape.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

wow, lots of grass. lol. i think it will look good. 

dont worry about the snail, they preffer algae and dead plants over live plants, and you have pleny of dead plant matter. the only problem is when you dont they resort to live plants and thats only a problem when you have a huge pop. of them. rams will probably eat their eggs, if not the snails themselves.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> wow, lots of grass. lol. i think it will look good.
> 
> dont worry about the snail, they preffer algae and dead plants over live plants, and you have pleny of dead plant matter. the only problem is when you dont they resort to live plants and thats only a problem when you have a huge pop. of them. rams will probably eat their eggs, if not the snails themselves.


thanks!!!!!!


i hope the rams do, then no more stupid snails :thumbsup:


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

they dont hurt, they add boidiversity, and rams attempt eat just about anything they can. mine used to constantly peck at the substrate and forage, and the male would gaurd the female if any other fish got near.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

lol, thats cool 

the snails do help, but the young ones(clear ones) that hang out on the glass make the glass look dirty.


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## Chrisinator (Jun 5, 2008)

Sweet tank and great stargrass growth!


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

that is my favorite spot for the snails. they are eating your young glass algae. and that means it will be easier to scrape, and you may be able to wait longer before scraping. i can sometimes see trails of dots where the snails were eating it. the scraper catches into those ridges and gets a firm grip.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i no, but they make is seem dirty. oh well, i havent even picked out the big ones, the big ones kinda look nice, but if they multiply too much, i'll squash em


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

lol. your rams will like that, all the work done for them. i do that sometimes, i peel one off the crypts, and just squish it and let the fish peck at the dead body.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i should get a tool to smash them


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i just use the curved tweezers. works well for those tiny hitch-hiking snails.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i dont have any planting tools. right b4 i finished planting i found some tweezers. almost everything was done by hand. omg i need planting tools.........


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i reccomend getting the curved scissors and curved tweezers, the curved can do anything the straight can do, but not vice versa, so you dont have to buy both if you are short on cash.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

wouldnt straight tweezers be easier to plant with? its straight down. wat tweezers would u recommend (link pleez )?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

nope, because when you hold something, your wrist generally isnt angled so your hand goes straight down (or if it is, its not comfortable). you can hold it so the end is vertical if you are trying to something straight down, like stems that grow straight up or rosettes. or flip it so its horizontal to plant stems that grow sideways, or for small plants you are trying to place precisely. 

i dont know which ones i use, sorry.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i'll see wat i can get. do people tend to use surgical scissors?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, ALGAE!!!!

heres the stuff  :


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

That looks more like driftwood fungus to me?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

nah, the fungus is mor fluffy, this looks more like whole bunch of tiny little strands. i wish i could borrow my dads D70 to get a really hi quality pic.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

if you look carefully at the base, where its thick, you will see its yellow-green, not white like the fungus.

dont worry too much nick, its just NTS. very few people stay algae-less for the first 6 monthes, and they are all experts. besides the algae looks soft and soft algae = oto food.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i believe my cycle is over, but i dont want to add fish until im done gettin all the plants. bu ti have a question, i know for a fact rams eat off the bottom of the tank. how will they do so with really long and densely planted grass?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

they will have no trouble spreading the leaves apart and reaching inbetween them. most fish are stronger then they look (boesemani rainbows are thin and you would think that they arent THAT strong, but they can bend the metal on the border of a weak net when you catch them in it against the glass). 
besides, they should be able to catch most of what you feed while its sinking before it reaches the bottom.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

come on, whats happening?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

algae 

seems nobody has the plants i need. i need some more cabomba furcata, some alternanthera reineckii sp., and tons of x-mas moss for a moss wall. and loooooots of snails.

and i would like to purchase quite a few more things. a new diffuser, a 200 watt 1/2 inch inline heater, 5/8 tubing with and adaptor, flo-pipes, and an inline reactor. not much goin on, but hopefully soon. according to my dad, i've reached my spending limit for the month, in july i'll get some stuff. 

anybody know where i can get a few stems of cabomba, alternanthera, and a TON of X-mas moss?

i was also thinking about having a single centerpiece plant, such as Hygrophila sp. 'Pantanal Wavy', or Gymnocoronis spilanthoides:

pantanal wavy:










Gymnocoronis:










you think that wuold look nicer or a bunch of stems to look like one?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

would a large sword look nicer as a centerpiece?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

You might try an Indian red sword, if A. reinekii doesn't work for you. I'd try the A. reinekii first though- it's a beautiful plant :biggrin: 

Your rams will be fine, they can eat off the surface if they want to, but they mostly eat midwater and if any food actually makes it to the bottom I'm sure they'll still be able to find it.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i think i may pull out my tall tenellus.  maybe get shorter, i cant see some of my nice plants


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i like the Hygrophila best, but i never kept swords, so i dont know what that would look like as centerpeice (but i think they get a little big for your tank).

maybe your other plants are just too short? which ones? i bet they grow taller. some of the nicest aquascapes are tall, crowded jungles. or maybe those plants are just still short. look forward and plan for how it will eventually look, not how it looks at the moment. but if you think pulling out the tall ones is best, by all means, go right ahead.

moss


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

my hygro porto velho gets covered, it stays short, it is a ground cover 

maybe if i pull it out, i can move the pygmy chain to make a border around driftwood, then i could get lilaeopsis brasiliensis, a very very thin ground cover, but idk wat to do.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i know where to find all the plants, at aquaspotworld.com , but many people are telling me this site is not such a good place as it is overseas and many plants die.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

idk then

microsword grows to a decent height. im not sure if it would be any shorter then the pygmy chain sword. i like the look of it better though. if you arent as much of a purist as you were before with the idea of a biotope, then perhaps you could get some lilaeopsis mauritius. it is microsword, but not from brazil. it is (said to be) much easier to grow then the brazillian. i have some in my 20L, it seems to be showing more promise then my brazillian, but its early to tell (just got recently).

and is that enough moss? there are other place where you can get more, but its more expensive.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

where can you get more?

also, the other lilaeopsis grows taller, like 4 inches too. 

and the swords i was thinking aobut were:

Echinodorus 'Red Flame' (10-30 cm) :









Echinodorus 'Rose' (25-40 cm) :









Echinodorus scaber (15-25 cm) :









i like the red flame and the scaber the most, what do you guys think?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

the link i posted on aquabid, and swap and shop. i could have sworn aquariumplants.com had them, but i just checked and they dont. 

i like the red flame best.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

but the thing is, if i get a centerpiece like a large sword, idk wat i would do with my stems, put the in the back?


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## roybot73 (Dec 15, 2007)

fishman9809 said:


> well, i am almost finished planting a whole bunch of tenellus, lookin nice, but i got some teaser shots, like many people are doing now, roybot73 style


You guys crack me up:hihi: :hihi: :hihi:


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

its the new thing, like pop rocks was!!!!!!!!! everyone do it!!!!!!!!

any other opinions on the swords? if i get swords wat will happen to the stems?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Nothing should happen to the stems, as long as you get an appropriatly-sized sword and it doesn't shade them.

I think E. 'flame' gets about the same as E. kleiner bar- and that's pretty big, so I'd nix that one. 

I don't think rose swords get quite as big as flame- but they're still big. I have 2 ATM, and one of them is going to be the focal point in my 46gal- it's pretty big.

I've never seen E. scaber- looks like a melon sword? I don't think a melon sword would get too big for a 20L, but they do still take up a lot of space, and they don't stand up tall- the leaves spread out more.

(All your pics are of emersed growth BTW)


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i guess i could just find a whole bunch of alternanthera, but idk where i would.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

easy. go to swap and shop and make a heading: looking for altenanthera


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i did, nobody ever responds.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i did some digging and found some you can get online. youll laugh where. its carried by...
...petco.com

Alternanthera reineckii


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

hahahahahahahahahahaha, im nervous to order from them, it seems that many plants are named wrong and are not even aquatic, so idk. has anyone else ordered from them?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

well no, i have bought plants in person at the store though (never saw that though). they dont really mislabel, they dont label at all. anything in the store is labeled as a "Misc. Plant' where i live. 

i would order it along with maybe some fish food, or dechlor, or algae scraper, or something that you will have a use for since the shipping cost is stupid for just 1 plant (remember you need 2 day or next day shipping).


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

well, they dont have anything else i want  they dont have prime, they dont have water polishing pads, nuthin. they have 2 deals on aquabid, but idk how good the sellers are.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

getting a thriving plant is great, but not required. i got 1/2 dead plants many times. but thats ok since plants can regenerate if their points of growth can be kept alive long enough (especially stems). i got didiplis diandra (touchy plant) and 3/4 of it were brown. but it grew and looked great (until it died from being shaded while i was away). im not saying order from a bad place, but sometimes you dont have any options ATM if you want a certain plant.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yea, i guess, i'll talk to my dad.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

wat the hecks wrong with my pH?!!??! it used to be 6.8, now its 7.8, even after WC!!!! maybe the summer heat getting to the pipes? i dont have much i can do, i cant get good RO water or distilled around here


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

is your CO2 working ok?
check your kh. if that is the same, then your CO2 ppm is off, and thats not good.

i dont see why it would. check the ph out of the faucet, did that ph increase, or the ph of your tank?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i just checked the tap, its the heat, the tap is about 8 pH   

i could u se peat to lower it, but i dont have any peat bags or anything .


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

thats ok. your plants dont care that much about just the ph (neither do fish). but what is the kh? did that change? compare your ph and kh again to check your CO2 content.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i need to check the kH and gH. do you mean BPS or color of drop checker?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

drop checker. but it doesnt mean much if your kh is different then the one in there, so you need to check your kh.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

its green, checking kH and gH now.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

ok, i have a 85ppm kH and a 130ppm gH


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

ok, well im used to degress, and i think thats 4.75 degrees kh.
im guessing your kh used to be the same kh, because the ph you used to have would be 20ppm with this kh which is good, but now comparing 4.75 kh and 7.8 ph, your water has about 2ppm of CO2. that is LOW. i keep mine at 30ppm. 

basically, you need to up your CO2. increase it until your ph is 6.8 like it used to be. that will give you about 20ppm which is just fine for plants.

do you know what your tap used to be? i think it may not be a tap problem, just not enough CO2. check the pressure, and if thats alright it might have just outgassed or something, and since you have a timer not a ph controller, it never replenished.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

tap used to be 7, but idk wat happened to it


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i mean kh not ph. 

you need to replace the water in your drop checker so you have water with the same kh. 
did you increase your CO2?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i just replaced the drop checker liquid today. tank water. luckily, i have seaACHEM discus buffer  pH is now 7.2, its a little better. maybe i can get it bit lower, then i need peat. i'll test the kH of tap now.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

well, just keep checking tank kh and make sure its the same as that in the drop checker. keep the drop checker green. and i would leave the ph as is, since you dont have fish yet.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

okay guys, i am starting to rethink the stocking list. pick wat u think would look best:


1st option:

1 pair of Rams
8 otocinclus vittatus

2nd option:

11 Pristella tetras
6 otocinclus vittatus

3rd option:

11 Nannostomus unifasciatus
6 otocinclus vittatus

are there any other small, complementary fish like killifish from SA?


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

option one sounds good to me, option four sounds good too....


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i am unsure which species of killies are native to the Llanos/Orinoco, got any idea which Killis are south american?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

option one has been edited out 

all killifish from SA are from Brazil and Uruguay


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

fishman9809 said:


> option one has been edited out
> 
> all killifish from SA are from Brazil and Uruguay


Then I say option four. I have wanted to keep pencilfish for a long time, but never did. But it's your tank, do what you want


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yea, unfortunately pencilfish are hard to find as well. i guess thats wat i guess for making a biotope


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

you know, in a 20L you could keep option 1 and add the tetras to it, but better reduce the number to 8 or 9. or killies instead of tetras.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i'll think about it, i just wanted it a little less crowded, didnt want it too stuffed. i guess it would be alright. my honest first choice for fish was hatchets, but they jump like hell, so thats a no go.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I think you'd end up better off with the Pristellas unless you think your parents will be OK with you getting another tank soon for a baby Ram grow-out tank...  Besides, Pristellas are beautiful! :thumbsup:


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

well, i have a couple tanks i could use to grow out. i have a 2.5 and a 1 gallon. that should be fine if i have a small school of pristellas and a pair of rams and otocinclus.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

that will be fine. i think overstocking is overexagerated. i mean look at my 20L stocklist. it would seem insane, but i have .25 nitrates, and 0.05 phosphates, and i only change the 30%-50% once every 2 weeks. 

growout? if they can survive in the tank they live, if not: free food; thats my opinion on fish fry that show up spontainously (of course if you want to try and breed a certian fish, thats different).


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yea, i dont want to breed like crazy, i just want to have a couple fry that make it so i can sell a little


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

it rarely works that way, unless you plan on feeding live food, unless you are lucky or going through a GW bloom or such. dont expect any survivors unless you have livebearers, in that case expect 50 from each adult female a month. and i am pretty sure there are SA livebearers, if you want to keep them.


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## Tex Gal (Mar 28, 2008)

fishman - did you ever get your Cabomba frucata? pm me if not.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i didnt, but it grew like crazy, so i trimmed it, i have 4 now, but idk y, but the left over part from the trimmings of the base is turning white and turning soft, is that regular? i need some new ground cover plants tho, this is too tall, it covers my scape, 

i need some lower plants like lilaeopsis brasiliensis, echinodorus tenellus 'narrow', or elatine triandra.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> it rarely works that way, unless you plan on feeding live food, unless you are lucky or going through a GW bloom or such. dont expect any survivors unless you have livebearers, in that case expect 50 from each adult female a month. and i am pretty sure there are SA livebearers, if you want to keep them.


i believe there are a few, but none from the llanos, i'll have to check in on that. :thumbsup:


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

you are WAY to specific. lol, its like a reef guy saying he wants the biotope of a specific tide pool. lol. 

thats not good. cabomba doesnt usually do that (well, mine didnt).

the microswords arent that short. they can grow 4 inches, but usually dont do that in higher light (like yours), but they CAN...
its gonna be murphys revenge.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

lol, i might just get tenellus narrow. im going to AFA tomorrow, maybe they have some 

well, i didnt cut right where the stem section starts, i cut in the middle of the stem section


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## Tex Gal (Mar 28, 2008)

fishman9809 said:


> i didnt, but it grew like crazy, so i trimmed it, i have 4 now, but idk y, but the left over part from the trimmings of the base is turning white and turning soft, is that regular? i need some new ground cover plants tho, this is too tall, it covers my scape,
> 
> i need some lower plants like lilaeopsis brasiliensis, echinodorus tenellus 'narrow', or elatine triandra.


That's odd. Sound like they aren't getting enough nutrition. Are you seeing similar stunting/ rotting in anything else? Do you have other fast growers? Your last px showed no other fast growers but this plant. The lack of nutrition would show up first in those.

I do think the Cabomba is a beautiful plant, but for the back or trimmed shorter maybe on the sides. Here's a px of some in my plant grow out tank.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i have the tenallus throwin new runners day after day, lol

thats beautiful cabomba!!!! nope, no other rotting, everything is going amazing, stargrass new leaves, incredible color, hygro sp. 'porto velho' going extremely well after the adjustment melt from getting pressurized, everythings dandy!!


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## Tex Gal (Mar 28, 2008)

Great!! Glad to hear it!! Keep up the good work. How about a px with the new plants?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

actually, i'll give u some pics soon, maybe tonight, idk, cuz im getting rid of my current tenllus, it take sup 1/2 the tank, and it gets annoying, im going to sell it and possibly get elatine triandra or tenellus 'narrow'. im going to AquaForesst tomorrow, so i can get


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i decided to be nice


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## Ozymandias (Jan 17, 2008)

looking good


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

uu'll like it more wen i improve it


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

looks nice, cant wait to see improvements


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yep, gonna add sand!!! make it nice, trust me 

i got lots to do at AFA


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

you are very lucky to have such a nice store near you. Man I wanna live in CA


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yea, its kinda small and expensive tho :/


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## roybot73 (Dec 15, 2007)

Dude -- Looks good! Things have cleared up nicely!

2 things here:

1. So you've come _this_ far with everything, and things have cleared up, plants are growing, and growing well...
...Why are you going to rip it all up and create a mess for yourself? Adding sand to an established tank is going to be a real horrorshow mess, and Tenellus 'narrow' is going to grow just as aggressively as your current Tenellus. 
Elatine triandra looks like a cool plant, but seems like a PITA.

"It looked fabulous for about a week, and then it overgrew itself, to the point where half of it wasn’t even rooted in the substrate anymore."
http://www.guitarfish.org/2006/09

" I also had problems with the Elatine growing over itself so rapidly that the old growth was smothered and the rest of the plant would float to the surface."
www.wetwebmedia.com/.../ planted_aquascaping.htm

"The Elatine Triandra spreads so fast that I have to thin it at least once every month. If I let it go too long it will get too crowded and start growing up becoming more of a bush."
http://www.aquaticplantnews.com/apn/propagating-elatine-triandra/

Planning, research, and patience bro  Lots of patience!

2. Seeing your lights on top of the tank with those flimsy wire brackets bent like that scares the hell out of me. I'm not sure that they were meant to be used like that.
Don't get zapped. Please.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

OH! im an idiot (dont you dare agree)! the rotting/whiting part, is it just the stem above/below the nearest node (place where leaves/roots grow from)? if so its just the plant throwing of useless peices (it doesnt lead to another node so its useless, but still needs feeding, so the plant cuts off food and lets it rot). 

well maybe microsword would be a good choice. the one in my tank is definately shorter then that. your chain sword is half the height of the tank!

sand? SAND!? you are going to rip up what you have now, just to put something that will take constant cleaning and grooming and still might look like a POS? please PLEASE PLEEEAAASE!!!!! dont...

oh, and about the lights, i think they are fine, but im sure you wouldnt mind putting every one of the appliances (the vast and endless web of extension cords all leading to one outlet, yeah that on that one outlet in the wall) on a GFCI? it cuts the power the moment anything goes wrong, that way, if you are about to get electricuted, it stops the flow of electrons inside, and its earlier in the chain then you, so you stay safe (as do your fish).


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

roybot73 said:


> Dude -- Looks good! Things have cleared up nicely!
> 
> 2 things here:
> 
> ...


yea, unfortunately, no fixture legs are made for this, 

i have something to compete with u now :












@[email protected] said:


> OH! im an idiot (dont you dare agree)! the rotting/whiting part, is it just the stem above/below the nearest node (place where leaves/roots grow from)? if so its just the plant throwing of useless peices (it doesnt lead to another node so its useless, but still needs feeding, so the plant cuts off food and lets it rot).
> 
> well maybe microsword would be a good choice. the one in my tank is definately shorter then that. your chain sword is half the height of the tank!
> 
> ...


i agree, jk, i am just more 

fine, for u guys i wont use sand, but in my new ADA tank (size will be secret), i will use sand, i havent decided yet, possibly bright sand or the new orinoco sand. i will tell you the purpose of the new tank tho :thumbsup: shrimp breeding. havent decided which tho.

im excited, very excited :icon_eek::icon_eek::icon_eek:


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## kittytango (May 7, 2008)

This is one seriously long thread! Your tank looks great. Good luck on the fish breeding!!


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

so is that what was wrong (well its not actually anything wrong) with the cabomba?

wow. 2 tanks!!!
awesome (the more the merrier).
so what shrimp? CRS? RCS? tiger? blue tiger? snowball? rare-and-super-expensive sulawesi (spelling?)?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

thanks!!!


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

so when can we see another journal ada style  did you get that today when you went to the store?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

@[email protected] said:


> so is that what was wrong (well its not actually anything wrong) with the cabomba?


i dont mean to be a pest, but is it a secret or what? im curious if your cabomba is actually ok.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

clwatkins10 said:


> so when can we see another journal ada style  did you get that today when you went to the store?


yep i did  everything planned out except the sand type and the driftwood piece/set



@[email protected] said:


> i dont mean to be a pest, but is it a secret or what? im curious if your cabomba is actually ok.


yep, like you sed, just getting rid of wat is not needed :thumbsup:


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> so is that what was wrong (well its not actually anything wrong) with the cabomba?
> 
> wow. 2 tanks!!!
> awesome (the more the merrier).
> so what shrimp? CRS? RCS? tiger? blue tiger? snowball? rare-and-super-expensive sulawesi (spelling?)?


no sulawesi or RCS. RCS is annoying (too fast breeding), and sulawesi are like the hardest to breed :icon_eek:

its either tiger, blue tiger, blue pearl, snowball, yellow, or CRS. lots to pick from, lets see which i'll go with 

which fish are shrimp safe? besides otos i mean


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

thats good. 

so, are the shrimp meant to make shrimplets for free ram food, or are they to make shrimplets which grow up into shrimp sold for $$$?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

the second option!!! 

thats y i got a different tanks. im planning on having 4 Amanos as well, since i love them


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

good plan. The money I have been earning from my plants has helped me buy co2 for my tank. Shrimp should get you even more than plants. Good luck


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

sorry, didnt see the question.

well most fish will eat shrimplets, they are the lowest animals on the food chain. however, i kept a ram pair, and neon tetras with adult amanos. the amanos were well over an inch and they just wouldnt fit into the mouths of any of the fish in the tank.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> sorry, didnt see the question.
> 
> well most fish will eat shrimplets, they are the lowest animals on the food chain. however, i kept a ram pair, and neon tetras with adult amanos. the amanos were well over an inch and they just wouldnt fit into the mouths of any of the fish in the tank.


are the following fish safe?

otos (i know they are)
boraras genus


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> sorry, didnt see the question.
> 
> well most fish will eat shrimplets, they are the lowest animals on the food chain. however, i kept a ram pair, and neon tetras with adult amanos. the amanos were well over an inch and they just wouldnt fit into the mouths of any of the fish in the tank.


i wanna get rid of the tenelllus, but idk, wayyyyy too tall, cant see my hardscape, whcih i want to


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## roybot73 (Dec 15, 2007)

fishman9809 said:


> yea, unfortunately, no fixture legs are made for this,
> 
> i have something to compete with u now :


The light doesn't _need_ to be raised up, in fact I think it's meant to rest flat on the wire brackets, which you've now bent beyond recognition:icon_roll 

I wasn't aware this was a competition I really hope you're not planning on "supporting" the tank on those felt stick-on pads... You'll end up with a very expensive pile of broken glass...


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

boraras are no good with shrimp. they are kind of in the same food chain, and boraras is a bit higher...
they MAY leave adult shrimp alone, but i have heard mixed stuff about that. shrimplets are nothing but food if they are in the tank. they may leave adult large shrimp alone (like a 2" long amano), but they will peck at most shrimp until they die.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

roybot73 said:


> The light doesn't _need_ to be raised up, in fact I think it's meant to rest flat on the wire brackets, which you've now bent beyond recognition:icon_roll
> 
> I wasn't aware this was a competition I really hope you're not planning on "supporting" the tank on those felt stick-on pads... You'll end up with a very expensive pile of broken glass...


no competition  just messin with u :thumbsup:

i fill my tank up very high because it is very hot it evaporates very fast. and so the light was only about 1/2 an inch from water surface :icon_eek:

whats wrong with the felt stick on pads?



@[email protected] said:


> boraras are no good with shrimp. they are kind of in the same food chain, and boraras is a bit higher...
> they MAY leave adult shrimp alone, but i have heard mixed stuff about that. shrimplets are nothing but food if they are in the tank. they may leave adult large shrimp alone (like a 2" long amano), but they will peck at most shrimp until they die.


okey doke, shrimp only tank it is!!!


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

pressure of the wieght should be equally spread out over certain parts of the bottom (thats how a tank is designed). by placing those pads, all the pressure is on four tiny spots right above those pads. glass + uneven pressure = shattered or cracked glass. shattered or cracked glass + water = flood. flood + parents = ****!!!!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Oh, dear Lord, I go on vacation for 2 days, come back and he's got another one...

:hihi:


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

jealous much? lol, jk, i should be jealous with u and ur 90 gallon!!!


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## CmLaracy (Jan 7, 2007)

you're going to break that tank bro, listen to what they're tellin you.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

oh, i guess i forgot to mention, i am getting a garden mat :thumbsup:


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

fishman9809 said:


> jealous much? lol, jk, i should be jealous with u and ur 90 gallon!!!


LOL I'm not jealous- I've just gotta go make more room in my PM box now!! 

(You know I'm just pulling your chain :fish: )


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

haha!!! 

hopefully ur GW goes away snappy, we wanna see the progress!!!


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

yes but on this thread, we want to see some FISH! what are you waiting for? i wait a few weeks and then dump some fish in. you are way done with the cycle, your plants are growing like there is no tomorrow, and those otos would help with algae.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i want some too, but im at this retarded summer school, so i gotta stay at my dads work from 5:30-5:30 

i was planning on getting some pristellas and otos from my lfs, but i only have 1 quarantine tank, a 2.5 

sometime soon i will :thumbsup:


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## Tex Gal (Mar 28, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> boraras are no good with shrimp. they are kind of in the same food chain, and boraras is a bit higher...
> they MAY leave adult shrimp alone, but i have heard mixed stuff about that. shrimplets are nothing but food if they are in the tank. they may leave adult large shrimp alone (like a 2" long amano), but they will peck at most shrimp until they die.


I don't agree with you. MANY people keep boraras in shrimp tanks. These pygmy rasboras are great for shrimp tanks. I have Boraras merar adn boraras brigettate in my shrimp tank where I have RCS and CRS. I have SO MANY baby shrimps it's pathetic. They are multiplying like rabbits. My fish NEVER go after them. 

Marko perhaps you were thinking of a different fish... :fish:


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

arent boraras merah the smallest of the microrasboras? i hear they only grow 0.4 inch, which is good. i sure hope the dont eat shrimp, cuz my mom wants shrimp in the tank


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## Tex Gal (Mar 28, 2008)

fishman9809 said:


> arent boraras merah the smallest of the microrasboras? i hear they only grow 0.4 inch, which is good. i sure hope the dont eat shrimp, cuz my mom wants shrimp in the tank


Both of the fish I mentioned are pretty much the same size. I PROMISE - they won't eat your shrimp!!!! 

Look here. There is a nice selection of nano fish.
http://www.franksaquarium.com/nanofish.htm


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

they must be super small to not eat shrimp babies!!


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## Tex Gal (Mar 28, 2008)

fishman9809 said:


> they must be super small to not eat shrimp babies!!


If they do I have never seen it. The adult fish are only 1/2" at most, tail included. Their mouths are very small. I have about 14 or so in my 10g and 2 threadfins. With all those fish I would not have any shrimp babies if they ate them. I have even left for a week and not had the babies gone. (I put those melting weekend feeders in there.) What I know is that I am going to have more shrimp than I know what to do with when they all grow up. SO, if they are eating them then they are doing me a favor because I still have tons of babies left.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

cool, im going to start a new thread, for the 30c


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i never kept them. but i planned on keeping a 10 gallon for shrimp and want some inside and asked, and thats what people told me. they said its not a good idea to keep CPDs, boraras, or microrasbora with shrimp. 

oh, ouch; that sucks. sorry fish.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

well, there is a possibility for fish, just no schooling ones. otos and hillstream loaches should be fine


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

yeah, herbavores rarely hunt.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

seems hillstreams get big, but there is one that doesnt. about 4.3 cm is the biggest size. i hope microrasboras (boraras genus) dont eat shrimp, cuz my mom really wanted a schooling fish, but they wouldnt really 'school' in a 12 inch tank.


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## Tex Gal (Mar 28, 2008)

fishman9809 said:


> seems hillstreams get big, but there is one that doesnt. about 4.3 cm is the biggest size. i hope microrasboras (boraras genus) dont eat shrimp, cuz my mom really wanted a schooling fish, but they wouldnt really 'school' in a 12 inch tank.


Mine do stay together in the tank. They stay in the top middle. They don't really swim around a lot. They are awfully cute though!


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

well, i'll see, cuz i dont want my stock to go down


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

heres a little pic


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

wow, that looks nice. 
good pic, and great plants of course.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

great pic until you see the ugly leaves at the bottom. What happened there?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

ohohohoh, those are just some leaves from my tropica swords. just from the top they look bad. they are not so bad from the side, they are more like a green brown.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

UPDATE:

Tropica Sword --- Growing
Cabomba Furcata --- super fast, heathy growth
stargrass --- beautiful, green leaves (new growth)
Tenellus 'micro' --- taking over (bad thing)
Hygrophila sp. 'Porto Velho' --- almost all rotted for unknown reasons (cannot take pics due to micro take over, and just cleaned filter, so foggy water)


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

well, we will need some pictures soon. lol

well i suggest you get some of whichever carpet plant you want, and pull out the chain sword if you dont want any of it.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yea, pictures maybe this afternoon. i like the carpet, but it is jsut takin over man. it wove between rocks!!!! (over, under, and around)

i think my hygro may have been shaded by it, and thats y it died


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

you need a plant you can trim to stay short, like glosso, hm, riccia, or hairgrass. but i only know of 2 carpet plants from SA and they are both swords.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

yea, i like the narrow, but dont wnana rip everything out. i like it, but i dont want plants to die of shading. after all, its only 1 plant thats dying.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

UPDATE :










My lovely stems :










try and see thru this forest!!! :


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

yeah, you need a new carpet plant. that is too tall. you wouldnt settle for a plant from cuba would you?

the stems are looking great, especially that stargrass.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

kinda looks wild, and i like that. the only concern i have is that it'll take over. i'll just have to thin it every now and then.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

if i were you, with everything so high, i would get more stems (not more kinds, just let them grow on 1/2 of the background).

does the CO2 diffuser have to be on the front pane of glass?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> if i were you, with everything so high, i would get more stems (not more kinds, just let them grow on 1/2 of the background).
> 
> does the CO2 diffuser have to be on the front pane of glass?


i was gonna get some tonina, but i also wanted a moss wall.

yea, the diffuser has to be blown around by outflow :icon_smil


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

well the moss wall can be put behind the area you want just as a plains of chain sword. if you trim it enough, it looks more like a background then a thick bush of plants. so a moss wall on the back pane of glass? you could still keep more stems, the moss would show inbetween them. the thing about moss walls is, you shouldnt see where they stop, or it looks bad.

ugh, diffusers.
inline reactors are so much more apealing (i know your diffuser is ADA, but that doesnt make it an ornament).


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

my diffuser is Rhinox 

i wish it was ADA

moss moss moss, i tried it b4 and it didnt last in my tank temps. i'll just try for more stems. but as you can see, i am kinda trying for a natural "ball" shape with the plants in the middle between wood.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

well, it looks like the ADA one. but im not so good at telling as i use a reactor. 

you mean you want to shape it into a rounded bush?
well i suggest having one rounded bush of cabomba fructa from the left corner to where it is now, and stargrass the same size. have them touch.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i would expand the middle bush more, but i hav e the tropica swords surrounding and they have really strong roots, i couldnt pull em up!! :hihi:


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

UPDATE:


















thats my tiny grow out patch for my 30c


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

Looking very nice and healthy!


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

thanks!!! do you think it looks better or worse with the empty spot in middle?

i do have tons of algae tho, its ok, its diatoms, once i get otos, its bye bye for sure


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## Ozymandias (Jan 17, 2008)

personally i think it looks better, there more open space and not cluttered


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

thanks, i was thinking the same too, the clump of plants on top right are the 120 tenellus ones i am selling, as you can see, there is plenty more to spare


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I think the back left corner looks empty.

Plants are looking awesome!

I like the bare spot. It will make a nice place to feed your fish, too.

BTW what are you stocking this tank with now? Has that plan changed? When are you going to start stocking?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> I think the back left corner looks empty.
> 
> Plants are looking awesome!
> 
> ...


i mite rescape it a bit this weekend 

u'll see


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

fishman9809 said:


> i mite rescape it a bit this weekend
> 
> u'll see


Putz! LOL

j/k


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

its okay laura, i know u'll like it, ill tell u this much, i am adding more of your favorite plant to this tank


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## roybot73 (Dec 15, 2007)

Looking good dude! You've really brought this around from your "muddy Aquasoil water" days!! I liked it before you rescaped -- with the 'wild' look to it, but I think you'll be able to pull it back together nicely!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

oOo :smile: 

If it's just the one species I'm thinking, they won't get tall and fill in that corner, though?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

roybot73 said:


> Looking good dude! You've really brought this around from your "muddy Aquasoil water" days!! I liked it before you rescaped -- with the 'wild' look to it, but I think you'll be able to pull it back together nicely!


yea, the hole is probably jsut there tempoorarily for the grow out patch, i havent decided fully wat ill do.



lauraleellbp said:


> oOo :smile:
> 
> If it's just the one species I'm thinking, they won't get tall and fill in that corner, though?



well, i am thinking more of the same dwarf species i have now 

if i can find a more colorful dwarf species, i'll get that, but my options are limted with small swords.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I think you should consider an Indian Red sword.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

those grow big tho.....

i PM'ed the dude who gave me 6 swords free last time, no response yet but we'll see, just gimme links for any swords u think i should get, i am sure u know a lot, since they are your favorite!!!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I've heard conflicting reports about the Indian Reds, and some said they only got about 8" tall. Probably depends alot on the nutrients and lighting. My E. 'africanus' have only grown a few inches taller since I first got them, and that was in April... and I believe they're both cultivated from E. horemanii.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

tell me ANY possible sword under 6 inches pleez mrs. sword master.  lol


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

There are a few, but I've never seen them in the US.  Part of the issue in your tank is that they would get to broad and want to spread out laterally, which would block too much light and also compete with your driftwood as the focal point... 

What if you move your tall E. tenellus to that back corner and let just the 'narrow' or a different shorter plant take over the foreground?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i guess getting more parvviflorus tropica is my only option :/

maybe the one from aquspotworld.com, but i dont trust them:

http://aquaspotworld.com/index.php?...4&module=product&action=productDetail&pid=247


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If you're getting more Tropica swords, I'd get them from AquaBotanic in your shoes, no need to have them shipped from Asia. AquaBotanic is in Oregon, I believe, so much closer.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

nah, they are local, a member of SFBAAPS, like me


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

semi-rescape, plants removed, hardscape visible now :











big java fern grow out:










downoi and moss:










downoi alone:


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## Ozymandias (Jan 17, 2008)

Ok now that looks even better and we can finally see the scape too


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

the moss rocks need to be pushed in all the way, to be level with the gravel surface, or the carpet will look funny.

otherwise i like the rescape, just needs a foreground now, maybe remove more chain sword that is in the front half, and have the foreground plant spread there as well.

the downoi looks pathetic, but you have a good setup, so it should grow and look better after a while.


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

That looks a lot better


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> the moss rocks need to be pushed in all the way, to be level with the gravel surface, or the carpet will look funny.
> 
> otherwise i like the rescape, just needs a foreground now, maybe remove more chain sword that is in the front half, and have the foreground plant spread there as well.
> 
> the downoi looks pathetic, but you have a good setup, so it should grow and look better after a while.


the downoi came pathetic :/ AHEM RESOWNER

moss rocks are jsut growing for the 30c right now.



clwatkins10 said:


> That looks a lot better


thanks!!!


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## resowner92 (Jul 23, 2007)

fishman9809 said:


> the downoi came pathetic :/ AHEM RESOWNER
> 
> moss rocks are jsut growing for the 30c right now.
> 
> ...


not my fault it was green when i sent it, i guess it didnt like the heat


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

possibly, i hope it regrows, i relaly like the downoi!!!


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

any updates on this tank?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

tearing it down soon, maybe i'll post sum pics later to show the reason of tear down, pretty ugly.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

what happened?

tearing down such a young tank?
unless its uber-cyano, clado, or TB, i cant see why.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

looks pretty ugly, thats the only reason, plus, i want 2 small tanks for breed blue pearls.


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## cyankal.i (Sep 13, 2008)

what? i just looked through 43 pages! and now you tear it down :eek5:

it looked so nice..


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

pics'll be up in a lil


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i accidentally deleted pics :/

i'll post pics 2morrow.


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## ivgonmad (Feb 18, 2007)

goalcreas said:


> Where does this come from. I have had 3 pair with MORE THEN ENOUGH room in a 29 gallon and a trio of apisto's in there, and all of them spawning. Of course water changes are a must, but IMHO they are anyway.


you must like crowded tanks


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