# Wrinkled leaves



## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

Are you dosing the GH booster as per EI dosing? What is your GH and KH like?

Crinkled leaves can be a sign of calcium deficiency.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

I agree with Darkblade it may be a calcium deficiency. Nitrogen deficiency will also sometimes crinkle new leaves, but you'd also see old leaves deteriorating if it were nitrogen related.

Though some sensitive plants like ammanias will crinkle if too much calcium is added.


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## TekWarren (Oct 6, 2013)

I just have the EI fert pack from GLA. Not sure if that includes any GH booster? Should I add calcium? What form would I add that in as?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Can you post a link to the fert pack you have?

I'd do a GH test before dosing calcium. You can use CaSO4 or CaCl2 to dose calcium, but CaSO4 isn't very soluble and so it will cloud your tank for a few hours after use.


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## TekWarren (Oct 6, 2013)

This is the pack I purchased and have been using for a few months now: http://greenleafaquariums.com/aquarium-fertilizers-supplements/micro-macro-fertilizers.html

The wrinkled foliage just started withing the last week maybe week and half and the leaves at the top seem to wrinkle in the fastest in that weird shape (almost like they are giving me the middle finger!). 

I have not missed any weekly 50% water changes, last sunday I did closer to a 60% change. This is the second week of dosing the 40-60 gallon EI range: http://www.aquascapingworld.com/mag...ne/Estimative-Index-Fertilization-Method.html

Thanks!


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

> Micros -
> Plantex CSM + B - 1 / 2 Pound
> Macros -
> Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) - 1 Pound
> ...


Doesn't look like they gave you any Ca/Mg. 

Are you using RO water? Any idea what your GH is currently?



TekWarren said:


> The wrinkled foliage just started withing the last week maybe week and half and the leaves at the top seem to wrinkle in the fastest in that weird shape (almost like they are giving me the middle finger!).


Haha I know the feeling! These plants and their shenanigans!


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## TekWarren (Oct 6, 2013)

I'll have to get GH kit. I am not using RO water. I have well water, whole house filter, and softened. Maybe worth mentioning early but those stems are actually trims from other main plants. Once those stems reached the surface I cut these portions and planted them. I am getting roots and new growth/branching on these replanted stems. It is the leaves that where already there from before the trimming that are turning funky.


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## dmagerl (Feb 2, 2010)

A softener strips all GH from the water so you should be adding a GH booster to gain calcium and magnesium back.

I use the GLA GH Booster.


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## TekWarren (Oct 6, 2013)

Thanks I'll order some. Odd that I've not had issues up until this point though.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

That is odd. Also, softeners add salt to the water which can harm plants. Did you just replace the bag of salt in the system?

A GH reading would be good. Take it to a local pet store they usually do it for free. An in-tank and tap-water sample should give you a good idea.


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## TekWarren (Oct 6, 2013)

I've not added salt to the water softener in some time (I should actually check it). I will order a GH test as I should probably have one anyway.


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## TekWarren (Oct 6, 2013)

I received the test kits today:
KH 9 (161.1)
GH 6 (107.4)

This was my first time using this kit and I stopped adding drops at the first change in color. In the GH kit it said when it changed from orange to green but I never saw green. I also don't like the test tubes all that much as when shaking them or even gently turning them over to mix the liquid, water leaks from the caps (not the first time I've experienced this) so the GH could even be off a little in this case.

Wanted to add that I trimmed a couple inches of the Ludwigia stems so they are further away from surface and the remaining foliage narl has slowed way down. Still get a lot of new buds.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Are the stems and leaves of affected plants brittle or normal and flexible?

How much CSM+B are you adding and how often?

Can you take a nitrate reading?

Can you take another picture or two of the old growth on the stems with twisted growth, specifically of any leaves that are undergoing chlorosis or necrosis. 

When you tested for GH did the color change and stay changed or just change for a second and then change back? It needs to change and stay changed to give you your reading.


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## TekWarren (Oct 6, 2013)

Oops I meant to say I never saw orange on the GH kit...I DID get green.

I have not noticed any stems of leaves being brittle. When I hacked off the tops of the ludwigia it did not fall apart or break during handling between the tank and trash.

I have mostly dosed 1/16tsp of CSM+B as per 20-40 EI dosing. I did about a 2 week stretch of dosing 1/8tsp testing out the next step up in EI dosing (40-60G) but I didn't see much difference. I was trying to see if there was any difference and trying to decide/determine if I should step up as I have a lot more plant mass now than when I started. But maybe 2 weeks is not enough of a testing period. I am thinking my lighting is no longer sufficient either as the plants are casting a lot of shadows as they reach the surface and the lower stem leaves don't look very good, get small, very dark, and some break down.

My sword plants have pretty twisted leaves but I thought this was normal but now I'm not sure. I also thought I noticed a bit of bit of yellowing starting to come through but not whole leaves or anything. 

I'm on the brink of ordering a new light fixture. My .2w LED can't break any sort of plant mass once it builds. This is a 40b tank so I'm trying to figure out between another single fixture that uses 1w LED's or maybe two fixtures that use .5w LED's. I don't use pressurized CO2 (DIY) so I don't want to over do the lighting but I also have 18x18x36 area to deal with. Not sure if a single 1w unit will push front to back well enough (cost is the prohibitive factor). 

I will try to get a nitrate test tomorrow, I'm thinking it will be a bit high as my Endlers are continuously reproducing...cool fish but man can they fill a space!


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Tell me about it. Breeding instructions: "just add water." I've got about 2,000 endlers in my 90g at home. They breed like nuts, but you can sell pairs of them for $1 to local stores, so they are good money if you have the time to sell a dozen each week. Fun fact about endlers: male endler size depends on population density, so the larger the population is the smaller the males are. Do you have the black bar endlers or another type?

As for lighting, are you set on LEDs? I've got to give the hydroponics lighting they sell on ebay with individual reflectors some serious credit. They use T5 HO bulbs and are extremely affordable, give great coverage and are generally amazing in every way. I absolutely love my 4x54w T5 HO fixture for my 90g tank, blazing light, two switches to control how much light I want, free bulbs, free shipping, individual high quality reflectors and the fixture itself is enameled so it looks professional.

Good to hear the plants aren't brittle, that eliminates boron issues (which show up as many new buds that fail to continue growing/some twisted new growth/old growth becomes brittle like glass and roots are stunted).

The GH you have shouldn't be too low or too high. Unless the GH reading you are getting is made up totally of magnesium you shouldn't be seeing curling issues. Of course that would require a calcium test and a bit of maths to figure out, but my guess is there is probably enough calcium in your water. If you are curious and have some time take a water sample to your LFS ask them do do a calcium test on your water then we can calculate how much Ca:Mg there is. I doubt this is an issue, but it would be good to know if it is convenient for you.

Can you take photos of the deteriorating older growth and also of the yellowing parts of the sword plant when you get a chance? The deteriorating tissue might be a lack of lighting, but it might also be due to a mobile nutrient deficiency like nitrogen which causes old growth deterioration and new growth twisting and stunting.

Also, I've managed to finish formatting the deficiency finder, I'm starting the long process of populating the list of deficiencies. Man it takes forever to link everything and organize the site. Am mostly focusing on iron deficiencies now, but will get to other common ones like nitrogen deficiencies soon. I've got your iron photos up, I'll add some extra pictures soon, but if you want to see how it looks here is the link: http://deficiencyfinder.com/?page_id=73


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## TekWarren (Oct 6, 2013)

I have Orchid Endlers, I got them from my dad who keeps 4 different strains. He has all 20 long tanks and his populations are very manageable but he has had his groups for some time so maybe they balanced out. My females get so much bigger than his do! 

I am pretty heavily leaning toward LED for the power consumption efficiency...but maybe I could be persuaded otherwise. I'll do some searching on what you mentioned.

I will work on some photos for you on the plants...might just email them directly. 

Glad to hear the DF is coming along. I want to offer to help but...well...that takes more knowledge that I have at this point between just ID'ing plants let alone the deficiencies! I know a lot people are going to benefit from the site though!


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## randpost (Feb 9, 2014)

TekWarren said:


> Oops I meant to say I never saw orange on the GH kit...I DID get green.
> 
> I have not noticed any stems of leaves being brittle. When I hacked off the tops of the ludwigia it did not fall apart or break during handling between the tank and trash.
> 
> ...


So you never saw orange? only green? wouldn't that signify a GH of 0?


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## TekWarren (Oct 6, 2013)

randpost said:


> So you never saw orange? only green? wouldn't that signify a GH of 0?


I don't know? I've never used this test kit before and the instructions stated when it changed from orange to green then you done. Nothing about not seeing orange. I tried to research it a bit here on the forum and I thought that I read as long as it changes to green then test kit is reacting properly but maybe that is wrong?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

randpost is right, if the first drop made the whole solution green then that means the GH is 0-1 degree. If you are using tap water then this is unlikely, if you are using RO water then it is very likely.


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## TekWarren (Oct 6, 2013)

It did not turn green after 1 drop it took 6 as I mentioned in the other post. I just never saw the orange color while getting to green unless it was so minute that I just couldn't discern it. I shook and turned over the bottle after each drop but I can run another test tonight as some of the water did come out while doing the GH test...really wish the API test tube tops didn't leak. Some of my other ones do also if I keep them upside down to long.

I am using my well water from the kitchen tap so it passes through a whole house filter and a water softner. I don't really know to much about the system but when we had the house inspected the person said it was a very good setup. The brand is Kinetico? The water is very good, even my wife who never really enjoyed water noticed how much better it seemed than other places we have lived. I have yet to run any tests on straight tap water.


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## TekWarren (Oct 6, 2013)

Still trying to figure out what is causing this leaf curling up reaction on my Hygro. It grows fast but the top leaves are still always curling up and in. My nitrates seemed high so last week I did not dose any KNO3 and before a water change this weekend they tested in the 80 range.

In searching, I can find exact same situation with the same plant. No real solid solutions but calcium seems to be the most commonly suggested deficiency. I put a chunk of cuttlebone in my powerhead filter but I don't know if it will dissolve fast enough to make a difference.


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## Asu1776 (Mar 5, 2013)

Cuttlebone increases your KH too. Have you measured that? I remember that keeping KH on the lower side is recommended. Maybe you could use GH booster as a more direct way of adding calcium and minerals. I had some curling in my leaves recently. Once I got my EI dosing and GH booster in line and kept my CO2 at high consistent levels, the plants recovered nicely.


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## TekWarren (Oct 6, 2013)

Ya...KH was mentioned previously...

The curling on the hygro has lessened. I haven't dosed kno3 all week because my levels have been high. I upped my KH2PO4 and K2SO4 by 1/16 each dose and my DIY yeast CO2 is now pumping out a solid bubble per second. I trimmed my Ludwigia way back but so far is look okay. I think I may need to up ferts a little more yet.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Might be worth adding a little calcium to see if it helps. Any photos of them now with the slight change?


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## TekWarren (Oct 6, 2013)

No good photos to compare with the ludwigia I took most of it out and replanted just the good branches which look ok so far and are growing. The hygro still has some up/inward curling but less so. The cuttle bone I put in my powerhead filter has dissolved a decent amount in the last week, so that may be the improvement factor. I am trying some egg shells in a "bag" also now but not sure if they will dissolve fast enough without being in the filter. Should I purchase a Calcium supplement or are there other homemade options just to confirm the Ca deficiency?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

CaCl2, and CaCO3 will both work, you'd have to order them though from an online store, very cheap products only a dollar or two each. I prefer calcium chloride since it dissolves better without clouding the water.


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## TekWarren (Oct 6, 2013)

Thanks Zapins, I should probably just order some. Once it warms up more and I can use my outside water taps I plan to check the GH/KH. If my outside taps don't go through the water softener I may mix some of that in during the summer months.


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## TekWarren (Oct 6, 2013)

So I decided to do some more GH and KH testing tonight. My tap water GH is literally a 1 maybe 2. Like I mentioned earlier it never goes orange. I found a tap before the softer and tested the water straight from the well: 10GH 7KH the GH test actually turned orange even in between. So I'm wondering if mixing this water in or even just using it for tops of daily will help this issue?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

I think there is a very good chance your plant issues will go away if you start mixing in the un-softened water or just use it straight. It seems more and more likely that this is is a calcium related problem. You could also add CaCl2 or CaCO3 (the CaCl2 dissolves better) and see if the problem goes away.

Keep in mind that GH is Mg+Ca, and CSM+B adds in Mg, so if you have 1 degree of GH it might be all Mg from the trace mix leaving you no Ca. That coupled with the visual symptoms seem to point towards a calcium deficiency which is fairly rare from what I've seen. Be sure to get some good pics before and after making the change or addition of CaCl2!


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## poormanisme (Jul 19, 2012)

My guess is not enough co2 in relation to lighting


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

How are the plants doing Tek?


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## TekWarren (Oct 6, 2013)

poormanisme said:


> My guess is not enough co2 in relation to lighting



I get plenty of pearling, drop checker is yellow.




Zapins said:


> How are the plants doing Tek?



Thanks for asking Zapins. I saw some improvement adding some different "home made" calcium sources and topping off with un softened water. I have not ordered the GH booster but think I really should to get it consistent.


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