# A Tutch of Dutch in 120G



## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

My previous journal: 72 Dutchy Gallons

Started with a 55 gal, upgraded to a 72 gal bowfront. Now I'm moving on to a 120 gal


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Very nice! And a bit jealous. Guessing that tank size is the same as GreggZ's tank? What are you using for a light? Kinda looks like there is 5 bulbs but I am pretty sure thats not right.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Immortal1 said:


> Very nice! And a bit jealous. Guessing that tank size is the same as GreggZ's tank? What are you using for a light? Kinda looks like there is 5 bulbs but I am pretty sure thats not right.




Thanks! 

It’s 4’x2’. I’m pretty sure @Greggz has a 5’ 120 gal. 

I have 6 individual 4’ Sunblaster T5HO fixtures 


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Ah yes, Gregg's is a 5' long tank that is 18" front to back. So, yours is 24" front to back :grin2: - nice!

Interesting thing with the 6 individual lights - you "could" have 6 separate timers and really play around with various lighting levels. Should be a fun build to follow along on.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Immortal1 said:


> Interesting thing with the 6 individual lights - you "could" have 6 separate timers and really play around with various lighting levels. Should be a fun build to follow along on.


I'm currently using 3 timers and running my lights in banks of 2. We'll see if that changes


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## AgMa (Jan 19, 2017)

Nice start!
You could have all bulbs on but with different colours, so you will not be high in par and have perfect colours.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

I have the same bulbs, and the same tank. They are really a good bang for the buck. I've used them for a little over four years now, and I love the flexibility of individual bulbs.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Love the new tank! And those Sunblasters are cool fixtures. Lot's of combinations you can come up with there. 

I've got a feeling this one is going to be good! Expecting great things in that set up.

Looking forward to following along.

Subscribed!


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Quick update:









Oto Army!


Some pink crypt starting to like life


My ode to @slipfinger  




I hope everyone had a happy Thanksgiving!!


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Dog walk update (no pics because I don’t know how to do the Flickr shuffle on my phone): 

The Good
- I think I’m getting a consistent 1.2 pH drop with only a few micro bubbles in the tank
- most plants seem to be growing 

The Bad
- I can’t seem to get reliable check valves, so I can’t keep water out of my flow meter, so the gauge on it never shows the actual flow. 
- stupid rotala bonsai - I planted a handful of clumps. Some seem to be doing ok, a couple have completely melted. They are all in the same place. I don’t get it.
- GSA/GDA on the glass - PO4 was around 10ppm when I tested, so I’ve reduced my photoperiod from 5 to 4 hrs. I might have to turn a fixture or two off while things are starting out. (I stupidly sent my PAR meter to slipfinger before testing my own tank haha)
- I’ve been having issue with both my micro and macro solutions, so my dosing has been very inconsistent. I think the iron I was using might have been an issue in my micros. And the issue with the macros was that I cracked the glass jar when stirring in the salts too aggressively haha. 

The Ugly
- gross brown algae flourishing. I used half the sand from my old tank and half new sand. I think the new sand might not be helping. I’m going to try a few big water changes. If that doesn’t work I might tone down the lights. 


Between school, my RO unit, my other tanks and my new shrimp project, I haven’t been able to fully devote my attention to this new setup. Hopefully in the next day or two I’ll be able to finish building my shrimp rack and also get my RO system fully set up. Then it’ll be time to focus on this garden. Just in time too, as I’ve got 2 plant shipments coming in the next two weeks :grin2:


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Good to see a new journal started up. The 4ft 120G is something I have my eyes on, so looking forward to seeing where you take this one.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Grobbins48 said:


> Good to see a new journal started up. The 4ft 120G is something I have my eyes on, so looking forward to seeing where you take this one.




I’m a big fan of the 120 so far. But there certainly is a big difference once you hit 100+ gallons. Even completely empty, the tank was a struggle to get up on the stand with only 2 people. My homemade canopy is so heavy that I’m going to have to hit the gym for a week beforehand if I ever need to take it off. 

The 4’x2’ footprint feels like just about the perfect canvas though  


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Hi MCFC

It looks Oto arm really went to war against your algae bloom. Do you have any idea what caused it?. I'm really curious about your PH drop, are you aiming for a specific PH or just marking the change?


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

RollaPrime said:


> Hi MCFC
> 
> It looks Oto arm really went to war against your algae bloom. Do you have any idea what caused it?.



The otos didn't really touch the brown stuff. That was all manual removal haha. It could have been caused by a number of things:

- inconsistent CO2 - I've been having issues with my flow meter and pH pen
- inconsistent ferts - I've been having issues with my solutions
- too much light too early - I was doing a 5hr photoperiod with all 6 bulbs on for 4hrs. 
- unhappy plants - some plants have spent two weeks in a bin with no light, some plants are transitioning from emersed to submerged, and some are TC that need some time to adapt 
- possibly something in the new or old sand 
- the ghost of Takashi Amano is punishing me for not having any Amano shrimp in there yet

Who knows?? Haha

My attempts to rid myself of the algae:

- I've stopped fussing with the gauge on the flow meter and I'm now just using it essentially as a needle valve while I use my pH pen to see what's going on in the tank. Not my preferred method but it'll work for now. 
- I ordered a whole bunch of new ferts a little while ago, including a different Iron. I'm going to try making my standard macro and micro mixes. Macro was just a container issue, so I bought a new one. Micros I keep getting a sludge forming at the bottom. If it happens again I'm going to try making an Iron solution and a Micros -Iron solution. 
- I cut the lights down to 4hrs, with all 6 bulbs on for 3hrs. I might increase the hrs but reduce the number of bulbs. 
- I can't do much with the plants but trim and wait.
- I'm going to do a few 50% w/c for a couple days or maybe a couple 80% changes over a week. I'm also switching over to RO water. 
- I've got a handful of Amanos sitting in quarantine, waiting to get to work on this tank. 




RollaPrime said:


> I'm really curious about your PH drop, are you aiming for a specific PH or just marking the change?


It seems like most people on the high-tech side of things aim for around 1.0 drop in their pH by the time the lights turn on. This should give you a ballpark CO2 level of about 30ppm. Because CO2 is so cheap, I want to push it closer to the limits. I've found that at around a 1.3 drop in pH my fish are gasping for air at the surface. So I see a 1.2 pH drop as being a happy medium between pushing the plants close to their limits without stressing out my fish too much. So I'm not aiming for any specific pH level per se, I'm more aiming for the specific drop.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

MCFC said:


> It seems like most people on the high-tech side of things aim for around 1.0 drop in their pH by the time the lights turn on. This should give you a ballpark CO2 level of about 30ppm. Because CO2 is so cheap, I want to push it closer to the limits. I've found that at around a 1.3 drop in pH my fish are gasping for air at the surface. So I see a 1.2 pH drop as being a happy medium between pushing the plants close to their limits without stressing out my fish too much. So I'm not aiming for any specific pH level per se, I'm more aiming for the specific drop.


I'm not sure of the exact relationship between CO2 and O2 in the water, but I don't believe they are mutually exclusive.

My pH drop is from 8.1 -> 6.6. 

I found that to keep the fish from labored breathing in the morning, I run a venturi through the night that aerates the water. I figure this is also good for the plants.

Maybe an expert can correct my thinking, but I believe with proper aeration you can run high levels of CO2. That said, when I had alot of surface exchange (HOB filters), there was more aeration taking place (didn't need the venturi), but CO2 would gas off much quicker.

I think with some more aeration, you can keep CO2 levels high without hurting your fish.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> I'm not sure of the exact relationship between CO2 and O2 in the water, but I don't believe they are mutually exclusive.
> 
> My pH drop is from 8.1 -> 6.6.
> 
> ...


Dennis Wong did a great video on this. I think of it as mandatory viewing for anyone who wants to run a high-tech tank. 






I run an airstone for a few hours at night and again for a few hours before my CO2 turns on. My canister outputs are also aimed along the top of the water, causing a fairly aggressive ripple. Without actively conditioning my fish for higher levels of CO2, I don't think there's much I can do. At the same time, given the state of my tank, I can't imagine seeing any benefit from increasing CO2 levels beyond a 1.2 drop.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

I think I'm slowly winning the algae war. Plants are starting to grow a bit better. Still haven't arranged any groupings yet. I'm not very artistic, so that might be the hardest part for me haha. 








These plants all came in the same Tropica pot as Bacopa caroliniana. I think the first pic looks more like Bacopa monnieri maybe?


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

MCFC said:


> The otos didn't really touch the brown stuff. That was all manual removal haha. It could have been caused by a number of things:
> 
> - inconsistent CO2 - I've been having issues with my flow meter and pH pen
> - inconsistent ferts - I've been having issues with my solutions
> ...


I'm quite apprehensive about adjusting the PH. I've seen people throughout the years crash their PH and have a detrimental affect on their stock so I've always side steped that aspect of the hobby. That said, it's interesting to follow your progression on that front. As for the algae, do you remember how soon after everything was up and running that it appeared?


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

RollaPrime said:


> I'm quite apprehensive about adjusting the PH. I've seen people throughout the years crash their PH and have a detrimental affect on their stock so I've always side steped that aspect of the hobby. That said, it's interesting to follow your progression on that front.


I think there's a substantial difference between temporarily dropping and then raising the pH with CO2 versus using other compounds and chemicals to permanently alter the pH, like in an African Cichlid tank. I don't know if that's what you're referring to when you mention the crash, and I'm no scientist so I can't speak to why it is that way. I seem to remember @Deanna being more knowledgeable/having more experience on that front (sorry if I'm wrong!).




RollaPrime said:


> As for the algae, do you remember how soon after everything was up and running that it appeared?


Sept 14 - Day 0 - Squeaky clean


Sept 29 - Day 15 - Sand is starting to get a little discoloured


Oct 2 - Day 18 - Sand is looking worse (front right), but still no brown fuzz


Oct 8 - Day 24 - Boom!


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Just mixed up fresh batches of Macro and Micro



Big fan of this guy. Really love the pink.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

MCFC said:


> Big fan of this guy. Really love the pink.



The transition from several stages of green through to several stages of pink is amazing.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

RollaPrime said:


> The transition from several stages of green through to several stages of pink is amazing.




The picture doesn’t do it justice. And the patterning on the leaves is just gorgeous too. Really a stunning plant to see in person when it’s happy. 


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Dog walk update 

I’ve got my RO unit all hooked up but I don’t have the whole system finalized. I can and have been making RO water, but I’m just making it in 40gal trash cans and wheeling them where I want them to go. 

I was hoping @Greggz, or anyone really, could help with the last few questions I had.

1. I don’t have my float valve hooked up yet, but when I do and it cuts the water output once the bins are full, do I also need to manually stop the tap water flowing into the RO unit?

2. You said you only turn the heater on in your RO bins shortly before you’re about to use the water. Is it the same for the air and circulation pumps? And do they affect the float valve at all (continually switching on/off)?

3. Any tips/tricks on flushing the system/keeping it clean/extending the lives of the membranes? 


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MCFC said:


> I was hoping @Greggz, or anyone really, could help with the last few questions I had.
> 
> 1. I don’t have my float valve hooked up yet, but when I do and it cuts the water output once the bins are full, do I also need to manually stop the tap water flowing into the RO unit?


No. When the float valve is closed, it's like turning off the water at your tap. Pressure is still there to RO unit, just not flowing. Nowhere to go. 



MCFC said:


> 2. You said you only turn the heater on in your RO bins shortly before you’re about to use the water. Is it the same for the air and circulation pumps? And do they affect the float valve at all (continually switching on/off)?


I keep the air and circulation pumps going all the time. May not need to, but I like the thought of clean flowing aerated water. Plus mixes in the CaSO4/MgSO4 well. No effect on the float valve. 



MCFC said:


> 3. Any tips/tricks on flushing the system/keeping it clean/extending the lives of the membranes?


My system has an auto flush system, so no help there. I put the filter change (6 months) on my calendar so I don't forget, which extends life of RO membrane. But honestly my RO water TDS hardly ever changes, and I probably change the filters too frequently. RO membranes last a long time, 2 years plus.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Finally built a front to the canopy


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Check my flow bro


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

I’ve been thinking about my lighting, PAR, and GSA/GDA lately.

My previous light schedule:
5hrs total - 4hrs for all 6 bulbs

My current schedule:
4hrs total - 3hrs for all 6 bulbs

I think I’ve seen a pretty big reduction in GSA/GDA, but it’s brought up quite a few questions...

It seems like high PAR helps to promote colour, but does it also help growth (beyond a certain threshold)? 

Or is growth more tied to the photoperiod, so essentially accumulation of PAR over time?

I know trees have two types of growth, height and width, that have different mechanisms that respond differently to different stimuli. Are aquatic plants similar? By running a high PAR but short photoperiod am I possibly missing out by not stimulating one of the growth systems enough? 

I guess in practical terms my questioning comes down to which is “better”?

Low and slow?
A quick blast?
A mix?

I know there are too many factors to give an absolute answer, and the best advice is to try it and see what happens in my tank. But I’m just wondering if anyone has tried adjusting one way vs. the other and seen any noticeable differences?


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)




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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Well my reduced photoperiod has resulted in a noticeable decline in algae. Haven't seen any GSA/GDA on the front glass in over a week and all that brown fuzz is gone. There still seems to be some BGA, or something similar, popping up in the substrate in places. Pretty easy to just spot dose H2O2 and stir the sand, but it would be nice to find the cause. 

Finally got around to actually arranging my groupings. I think some things work, others probably not. Way she goes!


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

The madness that helped produce my layout haha


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

MCFC said:


> The madness that helped produce my layout haha



Just noticed you had a Crinum calamistratum listed - nice. I have had that plant in my tank for a few years now - definitely something a little different.
I like your graph above - probably something I should do as well :grin2:


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

MCFC said:


> The madness that helped produce my layout haha


Let me know if you ever have some trimmings you want to get rid of 

If Canada Post ever decides to not be on strike....

That R. Mac. 'mini' has my eye.... wink wink nudge nudge.


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## tredford (Jun 29, 2018)

Quagulator said:


> Let me know if you ever have some trimmings you want to get rid of
> 
> If Canada Post ever decides to not be on strike....
> 
> That R. Mac. 'mini' has my eye.... wink wink nudge nudge.



Random side-question, but figured I would ask since we have a couple Canadians here in this thread  :


Have either of you seen Cryptocoryne "Pink Panther" or "Pink Flamingo" for sale in Canada? Looks pretty awesome and would like to try it, but haven't found a source...


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

tredford said:


> Random side-question, but figured I would ask since we have a couple Canadians here in this thread  :
> 
> 
> Have either of you seen Cryptocoryne "Pink Panther" or "Pink Flamingo" for sale in Canada? Looks pretty awesome and would like to try it, but haven't found a source...


My undulata red came close... But no pink flamingo... I haven't seen any around either.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Immortal1 said:


> Just noticed you had a Crinum calamistratum listed - nice. I have had that plant in my tank for a few years now - definitely something a little different.


I'm a fan, but I don't think I'm using it to its full effect. Probably doesn't help that I keep trimming the leaves because they get covered in BBA haha... 




Quagulator said:


> Let me know if you ever have some trimmings you want to get rid of
> 
> If Canada Post ever decides to not be on strike....
> 
> That R. Mac. 'mini' has my eye.... wink wink nudge nudge.


Canada Post being on strike certainly complicates things. Once the tank really gets going I'll grab some heatpacks and fire up a ROAK or two  




tredford said:


> Random side-question, but figured I would ask since we have a couple Canadians here in this thread  :
> 
> 
> Have either of you seen Cryptocoryne "Pink Panther" or "Pink Flamingo" for sale in Canada? Looks pretty awesome and would like to try it, but haven't found a source...


I see that SKA Shrimps in Calgary has "Pink Flamingo" listed, but he's been sold out every time I've looked in the last few years. I just picked up some C. petchii 'Pink' and some C. wendtii 'Florida Sunset'. The petchii 'Pink' looks really nice. Not quite the pink of flamingo though...

(Looks more pink in person)


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## tredford (Jun 29, 2018)

MCFC said:


> I see that SKA Shrimps in Calgary has "Pink Flamingo" listed, but he's been sold out every time I've looked in the last few years. I just picked up some C. petchii 'Pink' and some C. wendtii 'Florida Sunset'. The petchii 'Pink' looks really nice. Not quite the pink of flamingo though...



Perfect, thanks for that, I'll check that out!


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## kaldurak (May 2, 2010)

How difficult is it (time wise) to get a package from the US to CA? Because the Pink Flamingo is doing very well in my tank and I would much rather mail off trimmings in Fall's in the future instead of round filing or donating to the fish store.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

kaldurak said:


> How difficult is it (time wise) to get a package from the US to CA? Because the Pink Flamingo is doing very well in my tank and I would much rather mail off trimmings in Fall's in the future instead of round filing or donating to the fish store.


Everyone I've talked to says it's not worth the time and money to send plants across the border with the proper paperwork. It's probably worth a little investigation on my part by now. There are quite a few "rare" plants in the US that are literally impossible to find up here.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

I would be interested in gaining access to the US plant market.... 

I don't care about long shipping times, It's just finding someone who is willing to 1) follow the laws (if there is any?!?!) or 2) risk breaking any laws by not claiming living organisms are being shipped across borders...


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

MCFC said:


> Everyone I've talked to says it's not worth the time and money to send plants across the border with the proper paperwork. It's probably worth a little investigation on my part by now. There are quite a few "rare" plants in the US that are literally impossible to find up here.





Quagulator said:


> I would be interested in gaining access to the US plant market....
> 
> I don't care about long shipping times, It's just finding someone who is willing to 1) follow the laws (if there is any?!?!) or 2) risk breaking any laws by not claiming living organisms are being shipped across borders...


Trust me I've investigated the process and it is not worth the time and money to ship a few plants. First off you have to find a hobbyist that is willing to take the steps to secure a Phytosanitary Certificate, which usually means they have to drive to the closest Ag office in their district to obtain, which cost money. Then you have to pay for shipping, over night or even two day priority is not cheap, I believe it could be upwards of $30, 40 even $50 usd depending on where its coming from and where its going. Then the Canadian Food Inspection Agency on our end has to inspect the package, which also cost $15 I believe. Who knows how long all this will take, all said and done you can be out of pocket a good amount of coin and end up with some dead plants. 

Of course the above is if you are doing everything on the up and up. 

Soon enough some of these rare plants may not be literally impossible to find in Canada, well Burlington anyway! wink wink


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Hey I'm 30 minutes from Windsor............just sayin'!


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Greggz said:


> Hey I'm 30 minutes from Windsor............just sayin'!




I’m 2 hours from Windsor... ill bring a truck and trailer and stock up for the rest of us Canadians  


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Greggz said:


> Hey I'm 30 minutes from Windsor............just sayin'!


Trust me @Greggz I've google mapped how long it would take to drive to Novi, Mi...... Four quick hours away, but Buffalo is only 45 minutes hehe


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

@Greggz - I'm going to be driving through Detroit when I go home for Christmas... >


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

slipfinger said:


> Trust me @Greggz I've google mapped how long it would take to drive to Novi, Mi...... Four quick hours away, but Buffalo is only 45 minutes hehe


I'm only an hour and a half from the rainbow bridge! Haha.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Should I care?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Has never bothered me - probably 2 years without cleaning mine. Guess I think of it about the same as all the minerals that collect on the inside of your home water lines - leave it alone


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Immortal1 said:


> Has never bothered me - probably 2 years without cleaning mine. Guess I think of it about the same as all the minerals that collect on the inside of your home water lines - leave it alone


Agree- matter of preference. Sometimes I clean mine, sometimes I don't!


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

I like to clean 2-3 times per year just to make sure flow is maintained... I just send a pipe brush through and flush them out.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

My new favourite toy


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

MCFC said:


> My new favourite toy



Mixed drinks? :grin2:


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Immortal1 said:


> Mixed drinks? :grin2:


I used to get so frustrated trying to stir things by hand that I felt like I needed a couple drinks, but had no time for them, because I was busy stirring. 

Now I don't have to stir, so I don't feel the need for the drinks... but what else am I going to do while the machine does the stirring?? :grin2::grin2:


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

All wrong! 

"Shaken not stirred"


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Just messing around with some image editing...


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

You should "mess around" more often...


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

MCFC said:


> Just messing around with some image editing...



The problem with pictures this clear is it allows us to see your algae (BBA) better. :laugh2:

Not sure what plant (Madagascar Lace) that is just behind on the right, but Its showing just a hint of algae! Just saying..... 

BTW I edit all my algae out before posting!


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Immortal1 said:


> You should "mess around" more often...


Half of me thinks it's kinda "cheating" to go and edit my pics. But if I'm just compensating for my terrible picture taking by making them look more like how my eye sees the plants in real life, then maybe it's not really "cheating"...




slipfinger said:


> The problem with pictures this clear is it allows us to see your algae (BBA) better. :laugh2:
> 
> Not sure what plant (Madagascar Lace) that is just behind on the right, but Its showing just a hint of algae! Just saying.....
> 
> BTW I edit all my algae out before posting!


It's funny you mention that... there have been many times I've only noticed algae on my plants after seeing it in pics haha. But I don't want to edit it all out so that my tank looks nicer than it actually is. If I've got algae, it's going to be in my pics 

After all, isn't it our imperfections that make us beautiful?? :grin2::grin2:


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

MCFC said:


> Half of me thinks it's kinda "cheating" to go and edit my pics. But if I'm just compensating for my terrible picture taking by making them look more like how my eye sees the plants in real life, then maybe it's not really "cheating"...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I joke about editing algae out! What you see in my pictures are unaltered pictures taken from my Iphone, transferred to Flickr and thrown up on the TPT.

I actually take zoomed in picture to see the algae within my tank.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

About two weeks ago I started using RO water in my tank. I've been doing water changes with 100% RO water, remineralized with my own mix of CaSO4, MgSO4, and KHCO3, and have dropped my KH from 7 down to 3.5. I didn't adjust my CO2, so now my pH drops to 6.3, whereas the max drop before was 6.6. 

Just for fun I took a look at the KH/pH/CO2 chart on the barrbook and was surprised to see my CO2 value to be almost identical to what is was before (7KH, 6.6pH vs 3.5KH, 6.3pH). Maybe a smarter person would have assumed that was the case? Haha




slipfinger said:


> What you see in my pictures are unaltered pictures taken from my iPhone, transferred to Flickr and thrown up on the TPT.


Samesies!! (although sometimes I use my DSLR instead of phone)


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Greggz said:


> No. When the float valve is closed, it's like turning off the water at your tap. Pressure is still there to RO unit, just not flowing. Nowhere to go.


I'm currently just using a ball valve instead of the float valve, but when I open it up again to make more RO water, my output TDS starts off skyhigh at like ~100ppm. It drops back down to ~7-10ppm after a minute or so. Is this normal?


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## AgMa (Jan 19, 2017)

MCFC said:


> I'm currently just using a ball valve instead of the float valve, but when I open it up again to make more RO water, my output TDS starts off skyhigh at like ~100ppm. It drops back down to ~7-10ppm after a minute or so. Is this normal?


Yeah it is normal because there are salts in the membrane. You can flush the membrane before every use to avoid that.



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LOL, ban this robot :biggrin:


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)




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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

What kind of ludwigia is that? I have that variety in my tank.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> What kind of ludwigia is that? I have that variety in my tank.


Hahaha! More than a few Ludwigia in there... 

Take a look at post #30 for a list of plants


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Well things are ticking along fairly nicely. So, time to change things up? Haha

I've been running one photoperiod that is 4hrs, with 3hrs of all 6 bulbs. 

I'm going to change to two photoperiods that are 5hrs each, still with only 3hrs each time with all 6 bulbs. 

Essentially I'm now running two "days" of light in every 24hr period. I might try going with 2x W/C each week. We'll see...

I've also gone back to using spray bars on my canister returns. I drilled the holes a bit bigger for some of that @Greggz style wide and gentle flow.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

My erio has started to flower. I think that means it's toast?


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

MCFC said:


> My erio has started to flower. I think that means it's toast?


Pic?

If you mean sending up a seed head/shoot mine do it all the time, I just pull them out. The plant does not look as good, once they start sending them out.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

slipfinger said:


> If you mean sending up a seed head/shoot mine do it all the time, I just pull them out. The plant does not look as good, once they start sending them out.



Mine look similar. Pull the plant or just the stalk? 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

MCFC said:


> Mine look similar. Pull the plant or just the stalk?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just the stalk. They pull out easy.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Dog Walk Update


The Good:

Most of the plants are looking better than they ever have before. Lots of rich colour and pretty decent growth. I’ve changed a few things recently:

- two 5hr photoperiods instead of one 4hr photoperiod
- gave my “bio” canister filter an overdue clean
- have just been more on top of maintenance in general
- added spray bars along almost the entire back wall and drilled the holes slightly larger for what I’m now calling “Greggz Flow” 
- added two large sponge filters running 24/7 (trying to seed them for some upcoming shrimp tanks)
- have been more consistent with my dosing and testing
- and I added a boatload of livestock: 26 cardinals, 20 CPD’s, 4 espei rasboras, 4 Amano shrimp, and 2 sparkling gourami

So I can’t really say specifically why things are better haha!


The Bad:

Little bits of BBA in a few spots and a light dusting of GSA on the front glass. I ain’t too worried. 


The Ugly:

Erio ‘King Crimson’ is not liking life. I pulled out the stalks (nice and easy like @slipfinger said), so I’m hoping they bounce back. 

What are some other good options for colourful/interesting foreground plants? 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Pre-trim and pre-water change:



Green BBA? Aggressive GSA? Who knows? A razor/H2O2 should do the trick.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

I have to say, I'm pretty chuffed this morning! :grin2: 

My RO system is almost completely set up. I pretty much just need to attach the float valve now. 

I did my first W/C on this 120G last night and it was a breeze! Not quite as "flick of a switch" easy as what @Greggz has going, but still a big improvement on my old system 

(sorry in advance for all the pics > )

The RO unit



My connection to the tap. The connection on the right looked identical to the one on the left before I added that white plastic "tee". 


My sophisticated waste line drain haha


100 gallons of RO yo!


Pump


When the two leads touch water it completes the circuit and an alarm sounds




Drain line


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

MCFC said:


> My RO system is almost completely set up.


I would love to see what you could come up with if you had an unlimited supply of kids Hot Wheels race track parts.... :wink2:

Pretty tough to see how it all works from the pictures, but I'm sure it it will make life easier for larger water changes! Look good.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Welcome to the club!

Good to see I am not the only one who has gone completely insane!:wink2:

And nice job on the set up. I do love the projects and gadgets. 

Well done Sir!:grin2:


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Quagulator said:


> I would love to see what you could come up with if you had an unlimited supply of kids Hot Wheels race track parts.... :wink2:


I do love playing with PVC! 



Quagulator said:


> Pretty tough to see how it all works from the pictures, but I'm sure it it will make life easier for larger water changes!


I run the pump 24/7 as it's circulating water in both barrels.

To fill a tank I hook some hose up to the "outlet", open the "outlet" ball valve, and close the "circulation" ball valve. This sends the water to the tank. 

I use a pump to send water from the tank to the drain. 

Hopefully this explains it better! :smile2:




Just a tip: These were a lifesaver. I bought them for the RO tubing but they work wonders on 3/4" PVC pipe :grin2:


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Quick video at feeding time


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

MCFC said:


> Quick video at feeding time
> 
> CPD Feeding in a Planted Tank - YouTube


Well that a tease! Video Unavailable


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

slipfinger said:


> Well that's a tease! Video Unavailable


Still unavailable? Works fine for me...


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

MCFC said:


> Still unavailable? Works fine for me...


Still unavailable..... 

If you open the link into YouTube it works, if you try and play it within TPT it does not work.


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Just tried again and no go!


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

That do anything? 

I'll also try posting again here and see if that helps...


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

MCFC said:


> That do anything?


Nope..... Not working lol


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Quagulator said:


> Nope..... Not working lol


I give up. I'm just going to stick to pics


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## crisp330 (Dec 1, 2011)

What kind of sand are you using? And do you enrich it with ferts at all, or only dose the water column? Tank is looking great!


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Dog Walk Update (might be the last one for a while, getting too cold to go outside without gloves) 


I bought a cheap Chinese temp controller recently from my LFS. I’ve been using it with my RO storage bins and I find it works pretty well. I saw the exact same unit on amazon but as a pH controller. Given amazon’s liberal return policy (especially around Christmas), I decided to give it a go. 

The instructions it came with said the probe was calibrated at the factory and didn’t need to be done again until after 30 days of use. So I just tossed it in and tested I against my pH pen. The controller was off by +0.2 so I quickly adjusted it down and said “good enough”. 

I struggled for a little bit thinking about how to set it up with an outlet timer so that it’s only “controlling the pH” - adding co2 - during the photoperiods. I settled on leaving the controller plugged straight into an outlet, so it’s always on, and plugging the co2 solenoid into a timer that I then plugged into the controller. I think this is how most people do it...

I set my target pH to 6.3. After running it for 2 days it looked like I was only ever getting down to 6.5. I double checked the 6.5 with my pen and it matched. So I opened my needle valve a bunch. Next time I checked it was at 6.3. 

I haven’t adjusted the flow of my co2 in a long time, and testing with my pen was showing a consistent drop to 6.3 by the time the lights turned on. I wonder why there’s a difference using the controller? 





crisp330 said:


> What kind of sand are you using? And do you enrich it with ferts at all, or only dose the water column? Tank is looking great!




Thank you very much! 

I’m using pool filter sand (PFS) that I bought from a local drilling company. They also sell the same stuff at my local hot tub retailer too. 

All ferts are added via water column dosing. Nothing in the substrate.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MCFC said:


> I struggled for a little bit thinking about how to set it up with an outlet timer so that it’s only “controlling the pH” - adding co2 - during the photoperiods. I settled on leaving the controller plugged straight into an outlet, so it’s always on, and plugging the co2 solenoid into a timer that I then plugged into the controller. I think this is how most people do it...
> 
> I set my target pH to 6.3. After running it for 2 days it looked like I was only ever getting down to 6.5. I double checked the 6.5 with my pen and it matched. So I opened my needle valve a bunch. Next time I checked it was at 6.3.
> 
> I haven’t adjusted the flow of my co2 in a long time, and testing with my pen was showing a consistent drop to 6.3 by the time the lights turned on. I wonder why there’s a difference using the controller?


First you really should calibrate with calibration fluids, not against another device. 

And I'm sure it doesn't make any difference, but I keep the controller itself on the timer. 

Now as to the pH drop, it could depend on how your controller works and how you have it set up. For instance, with my Pinpoint Marine, first you set the range. I set mine to 0.1. Now let's say I set my low pH to 5.85. When the pH gets to 5.85, the CO2 is switched off. When it goes above 5.95, it is switched on. So basically it's in a range 5.85 to 5.95 throughout the CO2 period. 

So if I look at it at any particular moment, I could see readings anywhere in between those numbers.

Now the American Pinpoint is a pretty precise device, and a 0.10 range is pretty small in the scheme of things. Not sure how yours works, but I would check to see how it actually operates. I'm sure it also works within a range, just don't know what that might be.

The reason they won't keep an absolute set pH is that unit would be cycling on and off continuously as the pH drifts off the set point. 

Hope that makes some sense.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Greggz said:


> And I'm sure it doesn't make any difference, but I keep the controller itself on the timer.


So yours doesn't display the pH outside of your photoperiod? 




Greggz said:


> Now as to the pH drop, it could depend on how your controller works and how you have it set up. For instance, with my Pinpoint Marine, first you set the range...


Since mine is a cheapo Chinese thing, all the instructions are crudely translated to English haha. But it says the resolution is 0.01 and the accuracy is +/- 0.1. 

I don't know what the range is for tripping the controller, but I was able to achieve my desired drop by increasing the flow of CO2 and without adjusting anything with the controller. That suggests that it isn't an issue with the range, right?

Also, before I made my adjustment to the flow, the controller was still keeping the solenoid on when the pH was bottoming at 6.5




Greggz said:


> The reason they won't keep an absolute set pH is that unit would be cycling on and off continuously as the pH drifts off the set point.
> 
> Hope that makes some sense.


That definitely makes sense, I think haha 

What confused me is that I would need to increase my flow rate when using the controller to achieve the same pH drop as when I wasn't using the controller. 

Before controller: when lights turn on - CO2 is on, ph is 6.3
With Controller: when lights turn on - controller has CO2 on, pH is 6.5
Increase CO2 flow + Controller: when lights turn on - controller has CO2 on, pH is 6.3


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MCFC said:


> So yours doesn't display the pH outside of your photoperiod?


Correct.



MCFC said:


> Before controller: when lights turn on - CO2 is on, ph is 6.3
> With Controller: when lights turn on - controller has CO2 on, pH is 6.5
> Increase CO2 flow + Controller: when lights turn on - controller has CO2 on, pH is 6.3


Is the controller turning on at the same time that you were turning on the CO2 before? And were you following it this closely? Just saying that's not a big difference in the scheme of things, and I'm sure there is some other explanation. 

Because logically the controller can't be making any difference in your pH drop. It's just turning on and off the solenoid, nothing more.

And I looked up that controller, and it also uses a 0.10 range. So if you set it to 6.3, the unit shuts off the CO2 once it gets below 6.3, and then turns if back on when it gets above 6.4. So it's basically bouncing around within that range all day. And the value can drift a little higher or lower than those numbers for a short time, as the response is not immediate.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)




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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

MCFC said:


>


What the tall plant in the back right?


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

slipfinger said:


> What the tall plant in the back right?


Gymnocoronis spilanthoides 

Edit: I had never heard of it before. Saw it in stock with SKA when I did my last order. Thought I'd give it a go. 

Grows really well. Stays straight as an arrow. Doesn't need a ton of light and handles crowding well. Also grows well emersed if allowed to do it's thing haha


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

I've seen a couple people post their micros lately in some of the journals I follow, so I decided to do a comparison. I used micros from @slipfinger, @burr740, and @Greggz. I put in the numbers for @Quagulator too, but they are pretty much the same as the ones for Greggz. Also, I didn't have Joe's exact micro recipe, so I did his as a ratio to slipfinger's based on this:



slipfinger said:


> Fe - .3
> Mn - .075
> B - .06
> Zn - .06
> ...





burr740 said:


> Ive gone down to .2 3x for the past couple of weeks. Same recipe mix, just dosing 10 ml instead of 15



Here's what I came up with (the % column shows how much more I am dosing than that person):


NOTE - Turns out I used the micro numbers from my previous mix, not my current one. I'm currently a lot closer to Greggz, but I think the chart is still pretty surprising. 

I was pretty shocked at how much more I was dosing than Joe (250% more Ni!). Now, those numbers might be a bit off since they are all just based on a 3:2 ratio between Joe and slipfinger's numbers. But even if they're wrong, dosing 75% more Fe/week seems pretty high!

I think I might cut out a dose or two per week and see what happens.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MCFC said:


> I've seen a couple people post their micros lately in some of the journals I follow, so I decided to do a comparison. I used micros from @slipfinger, @burr740, and @Greggz. I put in the numbers for @Quagulator too, but they are pretty much the same as the ones for Greggz. Also, I didn't have Joe's exact micro recipe, so I did his as a ratio to slipfinger's based on this:


Very interesting post, and lots of food for thought there.

As noted, I am dosing the highest out of that group. Now keep in mind that Burr was dosing at my levels for quite a spell too. He noted that some plants loved it, but others not so much. So part of the process is finding the sweet spot for your group of plants. 

And you need to look at micro dosing in relation to everything else. I'm also dosing more macros than anyone on that list too. So is my micro dosing driving demand for macros? Maybe. 

In any event, just shows that micros are not the bogeyman. If you saw some of the tiny levels we were dosing a couple of years ago (CSM+B), you'd gasp at how little it was.

Things are going very well in my tank right now, so I hesitate to make any sudden lane changes. But my next step is going to be reducing everything proportionally at once. But very, very slowly, and continue with daily micros and front end loading macros.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Interesting graphic MCFC. Yeah I was dosing Greggz levels for several months with good results for the most part.

Vin did this too for several months in his 180 (Saxa Tilly/Pikez) Using v13.15 which I make for him.

So that's a fairly tried and true high dosing recipe.

It's basically what slipfinger and myself (until recently) are dosing weekly, except double only 3x per week.

I also did .2 and .25 daily each for a few months. Still good for the most part, except for a few plants that havent done great since going up from around .15 3x per week a while back.

Plants like didiplis, mayaca, h araguaia, myrios, used to be bullet proof but all have been having various issues over the past year or so. So I got to looking back at what I was dosing when they were all doing well and saw that micros were a lot lower. 

During the high phase, which Im calling .15 daily and up, macros have been up and down at various levels with not much change in the problem plants. Except for PO4 which exasperated the issues (and caused more) at around 7/week and up.

The one constant was higher micro levels. Which is why Im currently in a reducing phase.

The aquasoil tank is getting .1 3x per week. All the 20s are getting .15 3x. The two 75's with higher light/co2 and plant mass are getting .2 3x. 

And guess what, the problem plants mentioned above are all doing better. Nutrient hogs like pantanal continue to thrive. I havent seen any negatives from lowering micros, only positives.

Fwiw Vin has experienced many of the same issues I have over the past year or so, the good and the bad. Except for his Kill Tank shenanigans we're usually doing the same thing, micro-wise, in our main tanks. His 180 with aquasoil is currently getting .1 3x

Man I really need to update my journal...


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Thanks for doing that Stu, interesting to see the side by side comparison. 

I've been using the above micro dosing in the rimless for 5 weeks now. Pogo erectus is not a happy camper. Unless it improves over the next 3 weeks my plan is lower micros to .2 Fe 3x a week and see if it improves any. I said I wasn't going to chase a single plant, but pogo erectus is earmarked for a spot in my current layout. 

On a side note, I originally started out dosing (listed below) 4x a week in the rimless, but lots of things where not happy. Not one to waste a batch of micros I moved this mixture, mold and all over to the 75 and one of the 40's with AquaSoil and Pogo is growing just fine in both tanks. Also Ambulia grows so much nicer in the 75 then it does in the rimless. 

Fe .2ppm 
Mn .05ppm
B .073ppm
Zn .05ppm
Mo .00175ppm
Cu .001ppm
Ni .0005ppm


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

I do the same thing, I have a spreadsheet that compares what other's are doing. I just wish the others would find the optimum dosing parameters and stop changing their dosage rates!!! LOL


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

@slipfinger - Are you still frontloading NPK 25-7-30 weekly? 
@burr740 - I think you're at 3.5ppm PO4 weekly. Is that right? What are you other macros at these days? And are you still dosing 60% post water change and then two 20% doses during the week?


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

MCFC said:


> @slipfinger - Are you still frontloading NPK 25-7-30 weekly?


Yes and no. I am dosing 40ml after water change along with two more 30ml doses throughout the week. So if I change water on Sunday, my macro dosing is done on Thursday. If that's considered front end loading, then yes I am, if not then no I'm not. lol... 

I am also only dosing 6ppm P/week now.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

75s: 25/4.5/32
20s: 20/4/27
Aquasoil 50: 15/4/22

60% post WC and two more 20% doses

Without writing another novel, I dont think 3.5 was quite enough PO4 in the big tanks. Even though the initial (drastic) reduction from 8 was great, once the levels evened out it seemed a little low. This is relatively speaking based on the response in all tanks


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Got BBA? Time to trim! (and maybe give up on my erio LOL!) 












All the BBA is on old growth. I think once all my stems are healthy and I've trimmed away all the bad stuff then it should ease up on my bulbs and crypts. 

In other news... CO2 tank ran out today and I didn't have time to get it refilled before the place closed. Really glad I have full extra tanks in moments like these  . Perfect time to hook up my new 3" reactor and try to get my flow meter working again haha.


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## AgMa (Jan 19, 2017)

One thing I have noticed on most heavily dosed tanks, is that they all have/had BBA. Maybe too much Po4?
I have meet every algae that exist, but never BBA and I think it's due to I never dosed so much Po4.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

AgMa said:


> One thing I have noticed on most heavily dosed tanks, is that they all have/had BBA. Maybe too much Po4?
> I have meet every algae that exist, but never BBA and I think it's due to I never dosed so much Po4.


Never had BBA (maybe the odd clump) 

I dose 6ppm PO4 weekly plus a heavy fish load... very high light. I don't think it's PO4 related.


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## AgMa (Jan 19, 2017)

Quagulator said:


> Never had BBA (maybe the odd clump)
> 
> I dose 6ppm PO4 weekly plus a heavy fish load... very high light. I don't think it's PO4 related.


Just a thought. Every journal I follow (Burr, Gregg, Slipfinger) I see BBA issues.
Maybe it's also some sort of imbalance.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

AgMa said:


> Just a thought. Every journal I follow (Burr, Gregg, Slipfinger) I see BBA issues.
> Maybe it's also some sort of imbalance.


I think it is flow related. It seems to grow where flow is the highest, in my very limited experience with it. Imblances are impossible to diagnose these days. 

Every aspect of a tank, every nutrient, is somehow connected. 
"Balancing" things is nearly impossible.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

AgMa said:


> One thing I have noticed on most heavily dosed tanks, is that they all have/had BBA. Maybe too much Po4?
> I have meet every algae that exist, but never BBA and I think it's due to I never dosed so much Po4.





AgMa said:


> Just a thought. Every journal I follow (Burr, Gregg, Slipfinger) I see BBA issues.
> Maybe it's also some sort of imbalance.





Quagulator said:


> I think it is flow related. It seems to grow where flow is the highest, in my very limited experience with it.


The source of BBA is a tough one to narrow down. A quick search of TPT and you'll find people blaming CO2, too much/not enough flow, a fat racist orange old man, PO4, Fe, all micros, organics, and refugee invaders. 

In my experience it is related to flow and organics. I find it likes very low flow and very high flow, but no so much in between. It grows on the glass in places with low flow. Grows on lower leaves that are getting crowded out and getting low flow. But also grows directly on the return outlet for my canisters, the "intake" for my circulation pump (when I was using it), and the airline that runs to my airstone, and is worst closest to the stone, where the bubbles stream passed it fastest. 

I have found three ways of dealing with it:

1. Do nothing. I've had a couple tanks where it popped up pretty badly, just kept with my normal routine, and it went away after a few months. Don't know why it started, don't know why it left. 

2. H2O2 and/or Excel. Both work pretty well at killing it, and it's fun to see it fizz and then turn purple and die. Doesn't address the underlying cause. 

3. Better maintenance (plus maybe some H2O2 or Excel  ). Vacuum substrate, trim old dead algae'd leaves, clean filters regularly, optimize flow (not too much, not too little) around entire tank. 





Quagulator said:


> Every aspect of a tank, every nutrient, is somehow connected.
> *"Balancing" things is nearly impossible.*


I agree with the first statement, but am not on board with the second haha. 

Finding the balance isn't easy, but it's far from impossible. Mulder's Chart is a great place to spend some time if you're struggling with nutrient balance.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

MCFC said:


> The source of BBA is a tough one to narrow down. A quick search of TPT and you'll find people blaming CO2, too much/not enough flow, a fat racist orange old man, PO4, Fe, all micros, organics, and refugee invaders.
> 
> In my experience it is related to flow and organics. I find it likes very low flow and very high flow, but no so much in between. It grows on the glass in places with low flow. Grows on lower leaves that are getting crowded out and getting low flow. But also grows directly on the return outlet for my canisters, the "intake" for my circulation pump (when I was using it), and the airline that runs to my airstone, and is worst closest to the stone, where the bubbles stream passed it fastest.


I completely agree with this. Filter outlets and high-flow hardscape pieces are where I can occasionally see it. 




MCFC said:


> Finding the balance isn't easy, but it's far from impossible. Mulder's Chart is a great place to spend some time if you're struggling with nutrient balance.


If you can balance out all 11 of those nutrients please do share your levels  Share the recipe to success! lol

I might have a different opinion of "balanced". My tank right now is "balanced" but for how long? No clue... so if things become "unbalanced" was my tank actually balanced? or what I on borrowed time??? I said nearly impossible, not fully impossible. Maybe it should have read "TRUE balance in a tank is nearly impossible" where as ... doing the exact same thing for years on end with the exact same positive growth and health of both fish/shrimp/snail and plants is nearly impossible


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Quagulator said:


> If you can balance out all 11 of those nutrients please do share your levels  Share the recipe to success! lol


I don't remember saying *I* had found the balance... (my last post was all about my BBA):wink2:

The one thing I have learned that is universally applicable across all tanks is that no two tanks are the same. 



Quagulator said:


> I might have a different opinion of "balanced". My tank right now is "balanced" but for how long?





Quagulator said:


> It's not that hard when the plants aren't growing  I maybe trim / top / replant 1 species a week.... Only the mermaid weed, Ludwigia red mini and Pogo erectus need trimming. The rest of the plants don't grow.... Hopefully They will now of course


We certainly have different opinions of balanced haha! :grin2:


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Slight improvement





New reactor finally plumbed in


On the slow march to beating burr... :grin2:


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Toss those bloody Erios haha. 

Unless you are selling them people as a new variety. Crimson King 'fuzzy'


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

slipfinger said:


> Toss those bloody Erios haha.
> 
> Unless you are selling them people as a new variety. Crimson King 'fuzzy'


You just wait... in 2 or 3 weeks time, those Erio are going to be show stoppers! (or more likely dead and turned to mush, but a man can hope...)


In other news:

Got my new co2 reactor all hooked up. It's still gurgling a bit, so I might have to redesign it slightly. 

I finally got it all set up right near the end of the normal CO2 period, so I got to see it running with CO2 (with my backup 5lb CO2 tank instead of my normal 10lb). Because of the CO2 tank switch I also had to reconnect my regulator and readjust my CO2 flow. I left the flow meter out of the equation this time as I need to clean it, but I figured it would be less needed since I have the pH controller now. 

The next day I checked my CO2 right when my lights turn on and it was at 7.5 instead of my normal 6.3! Something wasn't right haha.

What had happened (I think) was that I stupidly adjusted the working pressure a second time when the solenoid was off, which the gauge doesn't read accurately. So I thought I had turned it down a little bit, when in reality I had pretty much turned it to nil, which meant my CO2 flow was around 0.5 BPS instead of the normal violent tornado.

I adjusted my WP back to 20psi, opened my needle valve a bit more for good measure, and I was back to my normal hurricane of CO2 in my bubble counter. The start of the next photoperiod the pH was 6.3 

One interesting thing to note - I've never seen this tank pearl as much as when the pH was 7.5 at lights on. Probably means something, but I haven't the foggiest as to what... :grin2:


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Found this stuff in the garage. It was left by the previous jabroni who rented this place. 




I would dilute it down to the normal 3% before use. Any reason why it might be a bad idea?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

This is the stuff I use full strength when treating BBA in my tanks. 8% peroxide w/o bleach. Of course, I use significantly less of it when treating the BBA - like using a 1ml syringe and applying it drop by drop to just the BBA. Now, the stuff you found - wow. That might do some real damage at full strength!

IAQ Overview
IAQ SDS


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

I used 35% when working at a fish farm to make some extra cash while in Uni, that stuff will burn you like no other! Be careful. I think I even diluted it down, and it would still burn you instantly.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Quagulator said:


> I used 35% when working at a fish farm to make some extra cash while in Uni, that stuff will burn you like no other! Be careful. *I think I even diluted it down, and it would still burn you instantly.*


So you think there would be a difference between store bought 3% H2O2 and if I took this stuff and diluted it down to 3% with RO water?


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Pre-trim


Post-trim



Edit: RIP erio


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Lost plant aside, post trim looks great!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Yeah I like the post trim too. 

Things look more defined when it's tamed a bit.

And you guys north of the border are coming on strong. 

Another great tank from Canada!


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

Looking good. 

You are a moss wall and a few plants less away from a comp. tank. I'm watching you!!!!!

Whats the plant in the back left corner and the plant that looks like 53b just behind the helferi, 53b, compact or something else? 

If it makes you feel any better I tossed a few erio's yesterday. They look like ass once they start sending up seed stocks.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

slipfinger said:


> You are a moss wall and a few plants less away from a comp. tank. I'm watching you!!!!!


I think I'm going to petition the AGA to include a Danish/Collectoritis category...



slipfinger said:


> Whats the plant in the back left corner?


Myrio mattogrossense - a freaking WEED. I'm going home for 2 weeks for Christmas. I'm pretty sure this will fill my tank going untrimmed for that length of time. 



slipfinger said:


> and the plant that looks like 53b just behind the helferi?


Helanthium 'Quadricostatus' - It's not terribly happy. Showing signs of deficiency in the leaves. I might make a post on it in a bit. 



slipfinger said:


> If it makes you feel any better I tossed a few erio's yesterday. They look like ass once they start sending up seed stocks.


That does make me feel a little better :grin2:


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Lookin good! Between you and Slippery Fingers Im gonna have to step my game up!! 

H quadrico always looked deficient in mine too, no matter what tank I put it in. New leaves half white and susceptible to snail damage. Root tabs made no difference.

I know we like to blame flow for bba, pointing to the filter outputs as prime evidence. But I still say its more related to organic waste. What I think happens is tiny particles of organic waste get caught on the edges of output pipes and whatnot, the bba then establishes itself right there and feeds on it as it comes by.

In a couple of my tanks bba also collects on the joints of the intake pipes. There's not much flow there, but probably just enough suction leaking through the cracks to attract small waste particles.

And we all know damaged or stalled plants plants attract bba like a magnet, regardless of flow. Because organic waste leeches out from plants in such a state. Thats why its important to remove any dead or dying leaves right away, melting stems, etc. You wouldnt leave a dead fish laying around would you? :O 

Anyway Ive never been able to cause or cure bba by adjusting flow. Think it all boils down to organic waste, how clean the water really is. Healthy plants contribute to that more than we realize


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

MCFC said:


> So you think there would be a difference between store bought 3% H2O2 and if I took this stuff and diluted it down to 3% with RO water?


Well no, @ 3% is would be the "same" as store bought. I diluted it down maybe 50/50 so 17.5% roughly, and it still hurt if you had a drop touch you. It was used to control bacteria blooms in the Tilapia holding tanks.... gallons at a time.... So people yelling at us for using a few ml's to kill a patch of BBA can step aside 

It was quite the seen to watch other workers doing there job, and then watch them touch / rub against a hand rail or wall that had a drop of the 35% or 17.5% (or whatever) H2O2 and immediately run frantically to the nearest holding tank and dunk that body part into the water to rid themselves of the burning LOL! so you would> laugh... all is well and fun.... until 30 seconds later it happens to you... ouch.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

burr740 said:


> Anyway Ive never been able to cause or cure bba by adjusting flow. Think it all boils down to organic waste, how clean the water really is. Healthy plants contribute to that more than we realize


I agree with this up to a point. No question to me that organic waste/unhealthy plants are the primary cause, and are the first things to be addressed.

However in my heavily stocked tank, I am probably closer to the edge when it comes to organic waste than most. A bit more out on the tightrope.

When I replaced my filter motors a little while back, it increased flow considerable, I developed some BBA on my driftwood in the high flow area quickly. It struck me as BBA is just something I don't have to worry about much. And it was only in the high flow area, and not on any plants.

I drilled out the holes in my spray bars, which created a much gentler flow. BBA receded almost immediately. So to me, high flow doesn't necessarily cause BBA, but it can be a contributing factor when you are on the edge.


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

burr740 said:


> Lookin good! Between you and Slippery Fingers Im gonna have to step my game up!!


Oh really! Says the guy that won the comp on his very first attempt. 

I look at it this way, if by me stepping up my game causes you to step up your game it can only benefit me and this hobby in the long run. The more you learn the more you teach! Unless you stop posting pics or giving free advice when ever I message you, which would be really sad.....

Speaking of advice, we need to have a chat regarding mid ground plants. I'm struggling!


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Greggz said:


> I agree with this up to a point. No question to me that organic waste/unhealthy plants are the primary cause, and are the first things to be addressed.
> 
> However in my heavily stocked tank, I am probably closer to the edge when it comes to organic waste than most. A bit more out on the tightrope.
> 
> ...


Right. But my point was that tiny particles of organic waste are greater in a high flow area, because there's more water getting blasted over that area. These organic waste particles, too small for the filter, are in the water. These tiny particles get caught on plants or wood or whatever and it grows bba.

I guess you can say flow is the "cause" either way you look at it. Except the less organic waste that's in the water, the less likely flow will cause it. That's just my personal theory of course


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

burr740 said:


> Right. But my point was that tiny particles of organic waste are greater in a high flow area, because there's more water getting blasted over that area. These organic waste particles, too small for the filter, are in the water. These tiny particles get caught on plants or wood or whatever and it grows bba.
> 
> I guess you can say flow is the "cause" either way you look at it. Except the less organic waste that's in the water, the less likely flow will cause it. That's just my personal theory of course


This is interesting. 

Never really thought about it but, the substrate in the front right corner of one of my 40b's is loaded with BBA. Basically there are a bunch of individual AS granules that have BBA growing on them. My powerhead is aimed right at that corner of the tank...... Other then that spot, there is very little BBA else where in the tank. 

Yes, its dying. I hit the tank hard the other night with a big dose of Excel. Maybe I should stop being lazy and clean the filter, its only been two months or more. Can't do this when you have dusty old AS, you have to be on top of filter cleaning....


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

Just finished reading through. Tanks looking good!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

burr740 said:


> Right. But my point was that tiny particles of organic waste are greater in a high flow area, because there's more water getting blasted over that area. These organic waste particles, too small for the filter, are in the water. These tiny particles get caught on plants or wood or whatever and it grows bba.
> 
> I guess you can say flow is the "cause" either way you look at it. Except the less organic waste that's in the water, the less likely flow will cause it. That's just my personal theory of course


Very well put and agreed. Good food for thought for many.

Bump:


slipfinger said:


> I look at it this way, if by me stepping up my game causes you to step up your game it can only benefit me and this hobby in the long run.


Some of us are just trying to get some game!!:wink2:


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Right before I do a massive hackjob to get the tank ready for it's two weeks solo. 
(Second pic I already posted, I just like to see the contrast. It was taken 9 days ago.)


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Really like what you have going there. Keeps getting better and better.

That before shot reminds me a little bit of the early stages of Mark Crow's Dutch tank. He has a journal of it on here, but I don't think it's been updated in a while. One of my favorite tanks on here though.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

15 days untouched - fish were fed sparingly every few days, cut out 1 of 2 daily photoperiods



A few plants are pretty unhappy about the lack of ferts (I'm looking at you myrio!), but overall I was shocked at how well everything did. 

My foreground filled in!! Super chuffed!! :grin2:


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Pretty good results for 15 days of being away. I was away from my tank for 5 days and was a bit concerned - happy to hear yours did just fine at 15 days.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

It's really amazing the extra PITA factor a 6th bulb makes in a 120. I've considered it for a while, just so I can play with more colors bulb wise, but I can't get myself to do it. With 5 it's still pretty tame, not quite at the red-line, but that extra bulb seems to just push it right over the edge. Interesting reading how you dealt with it. Beautiful tank! Would love to get there one day!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Great picture. 

I compared it to the "before" picture after the massive trim, and that's a lot of really nice growth.

Very well done!


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Looking good, nice work with 15 days away. Seems you made some good choices prior to leaving! 

Now that you are back I am excited to see what the tank will look like!


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

I decided to test my NO3 and PO4 levels before I did anything with the tank. More out of curiosity than anything scientific, since I don't really test my levels all that regularly. 

The day before I left I was pretty sure I gave the tank a full week of NPK and micro dosing (30ppm NO3, 8ppm PO4, no K in my dose as it all comes from remineralizing my RO water, 0.6ppm Fe), but I didn't write anything down in my IRL tank journal, so I can't really be sure haha. 

Results:

NO3 (using API liquid test because I ran out of reagent in my Salifert test  ) = ~40ppm
PO4 = >2ppm

I found the results fairly surprising. I expected both to have bottomed out, or at least be pretty close to nil. I really wasn't expecting them to both be so high. But I guess since I cut the photoperiod in half it kinda makes sense that my levels after 2 weeks are similar to what they usually are after 1 normal week. 

The really interesting/confusing thing is how the plants have reacted. Some that are normally weeds have stunted and are turning funny colours (myrio tops have gone white and gymnocoronis new growth is coming in burgundy), while others have never looked better/more free of algae (helferi, rotala bonsai, ar mini, s. repens - all foreground plants interestingly). Since my macros are still pretty high I think maybe my micros have bottomed out?

In the end I think it's just more confirmation that when you're running close to the bleeding edge, what makes one plant happy can make another plant pretty unhappy. 

Reminds me of the way zones are used with terrestrial plants. No farmer/gardener worth their salt would ever try and grow all plants under the same conditions, yet we aquatic gardeners seem to think it's (easily?) doable.


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