# Copper, "neutralize" "detoxify" How do I get rid of it?



## Milq (Feb 11, 2010)

I plan to have RCS in the future and I know copper is poisonous to them (and living things in general). Houses commonly have copper pipes and fluorite substrate has copper in it (I know a lot of people use fluorite or other things that are supposed to be harmful to shrimp with basically no troubles, but I want to be careful. Can't afford to have animals die on me, and it's a damn tragedy when they do). So I'm wondering what I need to "get rid of" any copper that will no doubt be present in my water and in my substrate. 

For now, I have API Stress Coat, and it promises to "detoxify heavy metals". What does this mean for me and the living beings under my care? A while ago, I came across a product for neutralizing copper (are neutralize and detoxify the same thing? if not, what do they mean/what is the difference?), but I can no longer find it. It was a metallic copper colored stout bottle. I've tried looking for it again, but everything I come up with is for _ponds. _This is really annoying to me.

So, will the Stress Coat take care of it? Or do I need something more specific? And do I need to get the water test drops for copper detection?
This is pretty important to me, and I would like to understand it as well as I can.

Read related threads and haven't come up with anything conclusive, like whether your copper pipes have anything to do with your water's copper content, or if it's something you need to worry about at all. Proximity to water treatment plant has come up here and there, and I'd like to volunteer that I live _stupid close_ to the local water processing facility. It is not a very attractive feature of the nearby lake/beach area.

I use cold water, put it through the Brita (people insist I don't need to, but I don't trust our water. It has _flakes_ in it) and then I would boil it to make sure it's safe, yadda yadda - but now that I have a heater, I skip the boiling part. Water changes took hours, even with just a 1.5g (had to wait for the water to cool so I wouldn't boil or shock my fish). Later on, I plan on buying big jugs of water, and I am hoping this will quell all my water content woes. What do I do until then?


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## Avi (Feb 8, 2004)

Even small traces of copper would be threatening to inverts so you're right in paying attention to the issue if it's one that you might have to contend with. I wouldn't rely on Stress Coat to remove all traces of copper. While it might even be doubtful that copper pipes would "leach" copper any appreciable amount into your water, if you want to be scrupulous in removing any copper from your water column, use a dedicated additive like Seachem's Cuprisorb to remove any copper in your tank's water or any copper that might leach into the water as it "escapes" the silicon sealant if the tank had ever been treated with a copper remedy before you use it.


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## Milq (Feb 11, 2010)

Thank you for your reply

I heard that Stress Coat wasn't really the remedy for this issue, and SeaChem's Cuprisorb looks very reliable. 

It's a new, unused acrylic thing, so there is no worrying about sealant, and I have never purposely added copper to my tank.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Activated carbon is what is used by treatment plants, and industry to remove trace metals, as well as aquarist. 

I have a horde of RCS, I mean 100's, maybe 1000's. I have no issues with rich ferts, rich sediments, very rich Trace dosing using CMS+ Fe doping, I sold 50 RCS last week, selling 30 today etc. 

People kill shrimp for many reasons and I've seen plenty of reports of folks without plants, not dosing any nutrients, CO2/Excel etc, no traces, using RO etc and killed off their shrimps.

Almost weekly in fact.

And yet I add all these toxicants and has no issues?
How am I possibly expected to believe there's an ounce of truth to such myths?

I add these "bad" things and have lush plant growth and crazy breeding like flies. Maybe it's because the plants grow well and remove these toxicants?

Too much worry about water and not about the whole aquarium's health I think. I do frequent water changes to match the tap with the tank. Then there's no difference between then except the ferts which are added right after filling along with dechlor.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

300-400 RCS in this tank:










Rich dosing all the way around.
Explain how it can be these other issues?

Pipes I can understand etc, but carbon will take care of most any of those issues for tank refill water.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Milq (Feb 11, 2010)

I am not sure what to say to all that, sir, except for that you have a beautiful tank. I wish I could see more of your shrimp, but I am very impressed with the color of the one I see at the top of the tank. Thoughts and concerns have shifted from "I don't have an answer to these replies" to "Wow I wish I could buy shrimp from this guy".


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## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

Cold tap water has less copper in it, so use cold water and let it sit in your house to warm up


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## Milq (Feb 11, 2010)

fishsandwitch said:


> Cold tap water has less copper in it, so use cold water and let it sit in your house to warm up


As I stated in the opening post, I am already using cold water.
I don't want "less" copper, I want _no_ copper.


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## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

no copper and your shrimp will die


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## Milq (Feb 11, 2010)

I don't understand. If it's poisonous, how do they need it to live?


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## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

You need iodine, but if you drink a bottle of it you will die

Same thing for shrimp, you just need to stay under a lethal dose.

Following normal procedures will ensure you dont have a lethal amount. You dont need to boil your water, use brita, ect. this, if you just letting cold tap water sit until it is at a reasonable temperature there is a 99 percent change you will be okay, and using a good declorinator. Most people will agree Prime is the best declor. Especially if you have cloramines.


I have used HOT water out of copper pipes in shrimp tanks with no problem, its just not a good idea.


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## Milq (Feb 11, 2010)

You know what, I think I will take the hands-off approach to this one. I can't engineer everything, especially if I don't know everything that I need to.

If a lot of people have been fine with a minimal amount of meddling, perhaps I will have the same results.


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## Scipio (Feb 18, 2008)

fishsandwitch said:


> You need iodine, but if you drink a bottle of it you will die
> 
> Same thing for shrimp, you just need to stay under a lethal dose.
> 
> ...


 
Indeed and well said roud:

Hey Milq,

Cherry shrimps are very hardy little thiings. Once they get ajusted to your parameters you are going to be up to your ears in RCS if no fish are around. And even with fish (like in Toms case) there will be more then enough to carry on if enough hiding places are available.


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## rymeyer (Jan 8, 2006)

Hi Milq, I have the same issue that you are having. I'm currently setting up a planted tank, and the primary resident will be CRS. These shrimp are generally even more sensitive to bad water quality, toxins, etc. than RCS, so I was very concerned about the copper pipe in my house. Out of the tap, a copper test showed that copper was present at about 0.25 ppm. I'm skeptical about how much copper they can tolerate (it's in their blood after all, so they have to have some copper), but in this case my paranoia won out. I decided to remove the copper, but I wanted to do it as cheaply as possible.

The solution that my S grade CRS breeding LFS proprietor suggested was buying an in-line filter and tubing for a refrigerator and ice machine. These things are meant to remove chlorine, particulates, lead, etc. I'm guessing it's just packed with activated carbon. The one that I got said it would be good for 1500 gallons, so that will last me a while. I couldn't find any such filter that said specifically that it would remove copper, but at $20 for the 1500 gallon model, I was willing to give it a chance.

Anyway, I hooked it up, measured the copper, and it was no longer detectable. That being said, it's likely that the same thing would have happened without the filter if I just ran the water long enough. This way though, I don't have to worry.

So that's my solution, and it's a lot cheaper and less trouble than having an RO unit. In the long run, I'll also add the Seachem CuSorb to my filter and then forget about it. It should last a long time since the copper in my water is now unmeasurable. The shrimp, when I finally add them, can get the copper that they need from their special shrimp food.

One other advantage of this setup is that, in theory, it removes chlorine, so I shouldn't have to mix in a dechlorinator. I'm not sure, however, if it removes chlorine completely, so I'm not 100% ready to rely on its absence. I'll test it on some of my other tanks with fish before I test it on sensitive shrimp. If it works for my LFS guy who breeds S grade CRS, it should work for me.


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## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

Did you test your copper level beforehand?


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## Milq (Feb 11, 2010)

Holy moly.

I'm glad you have been able to find a solution for your case!

I think I've decided to go with the laissez-faire approach, and if the shrimp die, I will be sad and they will become food.


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## Milq (Feb 11, 2010)

fishsandwitch said:


> Did you test your copper level beforehand?


No sir. I don't have a copper test.


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## rymeyer (Jan 8, 2006)

fishsandwitch, I'm not not sure if your last post was directed to me or Milq. Prior to my refrigerator filter solution, I did test my water for copper and it was 0.25 ppm. I'm not sure if that level would be toxic to shrimp or not, and I doubt that anyone has rigorously tested it, but I didn't want to take chances. Now the level of copper is undetectable using my testing kit.


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## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

Yeah, I was asking rymeyer

Honestly though I have seen a thread on any forum where copper in tap water was at lethal concentrations

Someone needs to do an experiment


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## rymeyer (Jan 8, 2006)

Admittedly, I haven't seen any posts like that either, and what I've done could be overkill, but it's still cheaper and less troublesome than installing an RO unit like many people do. I didn' t want my CRS to be guinea pigs, so I'm being overly cautious. I don't have the energy or spare aquariums to perform a definitive experiment.


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## Martin Schellinck (Jun 17, 2006)

I recently added cuprisorb to my filter. I've had issues with my RCS and CRS breeding since I moved cities. The RCS would breed but the population wouldn't explode the way it used to. I've had CRS that wouldn't berry and eventually die off over a few months time. So far, I've noticed all the shrimp are very active. I've never had shrimp congregate to eat the shirakura food pellets I dropped in, until now. If my CRS do berry, that will be enough evidence for me that the copper was the culprit in my case.


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## Milq (Feb 11, 2010)

Thank you for your input! I hope your shrimp situation continues to improve.

Cuprisorb looks like a solid product, but I haven't been able to source it locally. I don't have any shrimp yet, but I'll just see how things go. I'm a little less worried now.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Milq said:


> I don't understand. If it's poisonous, how do they need it to live?


Dose makes the poison, copper is deadly to us as well, too little we die, too much we die

The same is true for most life forms and copper. Folks go too far in their zeal to provide good habitats and correct issues.

The real issue is risk.
How much risk is there?

None from flourite.
Copper might be present, but is it bioavailable copper?
Glass is SiO2, but try to get some O2 out glass sometime to breath with.....

BTW, lots of healthy growing plants quickly take up the copper.
Other copper removers bind it to media(cuprisorb etc) or they chelate it.
Plants are better exporters IME.
Driftwood, peaty clay soil etc, all provide good reduced metal toxicity.

I dose very rich with CMS+B and lots of extra Fe, I know I have a massive shrimp population and know I am adding a lot of Copper as CMS, not only that, but I have super red cherries all doing very well. I have too many RCS if anything.

This adds copper, and if copper dosing from traces causes any harm, then I would have to see it in these tanks(I have 3 that all have strong shrimp populations, not just one aquarium), at least one or more.

That is......if copper is in fact, or any other trace metal........has any impact on shrimps.

I dose pretty rich also, certainly at the upper end when to comes to traces.

Maybe healthy plant= healthy shrimp?
Even consider that?

Anyone wanna buy some RCS?
I have another 50 for sale. Local pick up.
40$.

If you assume that copper(or whatever) is the sole factor causing harm, death, reduced fry brood, then if I add it, I should have to see the same effects. Unless ther's some other factor involve, of which there are endless possibilities.

I can only rule out one or a few things at a time.
I cannot say why someone else is killing their shrimp, only what it is not through falsifying the testable hypothesis.

If it's copper causing the harm, where's the harm in my aquariums?
It's a logical and simple thing. Where's the evidence that this occurs for this specific species? I'm not seeing it and am pulling out lots of them, many larger females with intense blood color.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

rymeyer said:


> Admittedly, I haven't seen any posts like that either, and what I've done could be overkill, but it's still cheaper and less troublesome than installing an RO unit like many people do. I didn' t want my CRS to be guinea pigs, so I'm being overly cautious. I don't have the energy or spare aquariums to perform a definitive experiment.


Therein lies the crux of the issue, and it is understandable, but also leads to speculation and myth. I'm not saying you are doing the myth part.......others shall fill that role in mass

Folks cannot say unless they have dosed it at high levels and know if the shrimp live and do fine, then they can say something.

If they dose high and no one can get the shrimp to live.....well........then they can tenatively suggest this might be a cause. But all it takes are few cases where someone adds plenty and no effect is observed, good breeding etc.

Same logic is also applied to Excess PO4 leads to algae hypothesis. Folks routinely add high levels of PO4, no algae.
Few where willing to risk it however. I had high PO4 in the tap, just did not know it till we tested it one day.
So folks make errors, and these can lead to a better understanding of the risk/overdosing etc.

Realize people have killed far more fish in planted tanks using CO2 than any nutrient overdose.
Excel is also extremely toxic, but many do not have any issue adding that to a shrimp tank curiously.


regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Snipe (Mar 7, 2010)

I have read this thread several times and it has yet to remove the cloud of apprehension from over my head.

I'm doing a fishless cycle on a 20 L. My intention for this tank was to have a planted invert tank. The tank is in my office and I didn't want anything too busy while I'm getting stuff done.

The plants are in and are doing well, then I discovered that Flourite has copper in it upon reading this thread because I stupidly didn't read the bag before I bought it. So now I'm stuck and about ready to toss the whole project out the window, literally.

If inverts need some copper and copper is not toxic, why do stores carry things like Snail Rid and other meds such as CopperSafe say to "Remove invertabrates without an exiskeleton from tank" on the side of the box?

Here is where my confusion lies. Is it the type of copper that is being used that makes a difference? Something else?

I have been testing the 20 gallon for copper and so far, none has come up. Then again, it's a API kit so I don't know how accurate it will is. My house is over 30 years old which means it has copper pipes and I also have a 55 gallon that has a Nerite snail in it. I added him about a month ago and he or she seems to be fine. I added the Nerite based on testing for copper and not finding anything via SeaChem's Copper Test, but in the back of my mind, it's still a worry that I'm somehow making this critter uncomfortable somehow.


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## insta (Jan 27, 2010)

Don't throw away the Flourite. You will have a copper problem if you use a Flourite substrate, and only top off (never remove) your water from the hot pipes of an all-copper setup in a copper jug with no plants -- but that's just silly. Plants need copper to grow and will happily remove the trace amounts from water. The copper in Flourite isn't accessible to plants unless they reeeally want it -- it won't just leech out.

The "don't put copper in your tank" is more a thing of don't put old copper/brass ornaments underwater, like old faucets, for decoration. 

For nearly every freshwater fish/invert, if you can drink it and not die, they can live in it if acclimated slowly.


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## Martin Schellinck (Jun 17, 2006)

Whether or not it was copper causing all the problems in my case, I have seen improvements. Cuprisorb also claim to remove other heavy metals from the water. I should also mention that this is the first time that I've used purigen as well in this particular tank. All I know is that my plants and shrimp are healthy so I'll continue to use this method until I'm convinced it's not effective.


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## Snipe (Mar 7, 2010)

Martin Schellinck said:


> Whether or not it was copper causing all the problems in my case, I have seen improvements. Cuprisorb also claim to remove other heavy metals from the water. I should also mention that this is the first time that I've used purigen as well in this particular tank. All I know is that my plants and shrimp are healthy so I'll continue to use this method until I'm convinced it's not effective.


Sorry for all the typos and broken thoughts in my previous post. I should stay away from the computer when I'm not fully awake.

I'm not questioning the method you are using. I'm just frustrated as nothing seems to make sense when it comes to whole invert / copper debate. Snail Rid is copper, but they're supposed to have it? Meh! If they are supposed to have alittle, what is considered a lethal amount?

I'm not going to set up another tank to see how much copper it takes to kill a invert, I just wish there was definitive information regarding this topic. I've gone as far as to check out the EPA website as I'm at a total loss.


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## Martin Schellinck (Jun 17, 2006)

I'm not completely sold on the whole copper hypothesis either, but I do know that cuprisorb and/or purigen removed something from my water that was causing issues. I will probably never know exactly what it is, but I suspect it was some sort of heavy metal. The nice thing about cuprisorb and purigen is that they're both rechargeable, so this $25 investment is definitely worth all the shrimp I'll be saving.


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## Snipe (Mar 7, 2010)

Maybe I'll just take your lead on this and do the same. I don't want to ditch the tank because I can't get the answers I'm looking for and I don't really want fish in the tank either. I love my fish punks in the 55, but this tank was set up with a plan in mind.

Thanks.


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## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

Wow...a lot of people seem to have trouble understanding this...but it is very simple.
Trace amounts of copper through tap water, substrate and fertz is not harmful.
Large amounts from meds and such is.

There is no data on what is a lethal dose but it is not very high. The traces that they need are extremely small and there is no way you would need to dose copper for your inverts to survive. 

The amount of copper in flourite is not even comprable to adding even a tiny amount of rid a snail. 
Allt this boils down to-
Copper is nothhing to worry about. Just dont intentioally add it.


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## RoedyGreen (Aug 17, 2014)

Milq said:


> Thank you for your reply
> It's a new, unused acrylic thing, so there is no worrying about sealant, and I have never purposely added copper to my tank.


A likely source of copper contamination is copper cold water pipes. These were standard in the 1950s. Newer homes use plastic or non-copper metals. Copper is too expensive now to use for pipes. One way to reduce it is to run the tap for ten minutes or so before you start collecting water to help flush it out.

When I was a boy, we were told to use "hypo crystals" (sodium thiosulfate used in photography) to treat the water. Without it, goldfish did not last long in my part of the world with a lot of copper in the water. You might research that to see if it still considered a recommended treatment.

A long time ago people were told to put a copper pot-cleaner in a tank to discourage algae. I hope no one tries that today.

I am concerned about the problem with a tank I am just setting up in a city not far from my copper-laden youth. But before I treat, I would like to test.


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## ShyShrimpDoc (Jun 28, 2012)

A little copper is required for life. For you, me, shrimp, worms... everything. Too much is a problem. Copper tests are readily available as people use them to monitor medication when trying to kill copper sensitive pests. Monitoring is needed BECAUSE it requires a high level of copper to kill them. I found a hiding shrimp in a tank that I turned blue with copper after three days. He was still foraging for food. I would not recommend doing that to them, and it wasn't on purpose.

If you have a serious excess of copper then chelate with flourite or feed it to your plants. But really... the tank was bright blue from copper chloride and he was snug as a bug. Moved him to his new home and never had an issue from it.


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