# Lighting decision



## attack11 (May 5, 2006)

i have a 20" sunpod and it's basically perfect. no heat issue, it's light weight so the legs support it fine. the water temperature is unchanged when it's on vs off. they come with a pendant kit so you can hang it if you want. most importantly it's silent except for the exhaust fan; which you can swap out (50mm).

the coralife 10000k bulbs are really sweet. if you do get one, i'd recommend checking the bulbs when it arrives; shipping can bounce it around a little and it might not be seated perfectly, so the spark time would be longer. if it's in properly it'll light a bulb up instantly.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

attack11 said:


> i have a 20" sunpod and it's basically perfect. no heat issue, it's light weight so the legs support it fine. the water temperature is unchanged when it's on vs off. they come with a pendant kit so you can hang it if you want. most importantly it's silent except for the exhaust fan; which you can swap out (50mm).
> 
> the coralife 10000k bulbs are really sweet. if you do get one, i'd recommend checking the bulbs when it arrives; shipping can bounce it around a little and it might not be seated perfectly, so the spark time would be longer. if it's in properly it'll light a bulb up instantly.


*Option1* 1 *Option2* 0

Very cool. Thank you. 
I was worried about extreme heat. Ive never had these fixtures before. I am used to the fans because I have an Orbit and Orbit Extreme now. Good to know the fixture runs silent. Thanks for the tip...I will be swapping out the bulbs on arrival with either 6400k or 10000k bulbs. I havent made up my mind yet. :icon_roll

That is...if I chose MH...which sounds really likely now...I thought this thing was going to be like a blow torch..LOL.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

For me, energy cost plays a big role. Let's do a quick calc... 300W x 10hrs = 3kWhrs x $0.12/kWhr = $0.36 x 365 days = $131 annual cost.

Of course, with the halides you would get much higher light levels compared to the T5NO bulbs. It just comes down to what you are after, what is important to you.


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## attack11 (May 5, 2006)

224w t5no vs 300w mh .. the mh is worth the extra $5-8/month by far. t5no costs more annually if you factor in new bulbs. hqi bulbs avg 6000hr lifespans, which is just under 2yrs @ 10hr/day.


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## gbhil (Oct 28, 2005)

I'm seeing a few things that aren't making sense to me. Could just be me (likely lol) but don't you have your feelings about bulb replacment costs reversed?

2x 150watt HQI lamps = ~$100.00 - $150.00. Plan to replace yearly.
8x T5 lamps = ~$88.00. Plan to replace when the lamps burn out (18-24 months).

I'd also opt for two 175 watt mogul base pendants vs the 2x150 hqi sunpod. The pendants can be height adjusted for better light coverage over your 18" deep tank. You'll also have less heat issues, and save at least $100.00 bucks up front..not even considering the cheaper bulb costs.


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## gbhil (Oct 28, 2005)

attack11 said:


> ...... hqi bulbs avg 6000hr lifespans, which is just under 2yrs @ 10hr/day.


That's 6000 hours continous duty. Halve that and you'll be closer to the point when they will burn out. The heat they emitt also causes discoloration of the lamps glass, which can greatly affect their CRI and Kelvin ratings in as little as ~6 months. They sure put out nice light though...the ADA 8000K lamps are to die for, and worth the high costs of using them if budget concerns aren't in your way. :thumbsup:


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## attack11 (May 5, 2006)

i think you're confusing hqi with ed bulbs. depending on the hqi bulb, the lifespan can be 6000 to 10000 hours, continous use isn't a factor.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

attack11 said:


> 224w t5no vs 300w mh .. the mh is worth the extra $5-8/month by far. t5no costs more annually if you factor in new bulbs. hqi bulbs avg 6000hr lifespans, which is just under 2yrs @ 10hr/day.


You are right, I didn't calculate a total of 8 bulbs... Watts are watts, so the difference won't be a big as I thought.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

I am just comparing cost over 10 years instead of right up front. Its going to take 2 bulbs vs. 8. From what I understood...the T5 bulbs need to be replaced yearly no matter if they burn out or not. I was counting on the HQI MH bulbs to last 2 years. Basically what it boils down to is 2 bulbs every 2 years at $100 vs. 8 bulbs every year at $88.

I did look into the seperate pendant bulbs. I was going to go there but I have an Orbit fixture Ive grown partial to. It fits nice I dont have to worry and it includes moonlighting....something ive also grown partial to. I plan on getting the ceiling mount kit.

Wasserpest said watts are watts....this is sorta what led me down to metal halides. I am going to be pushing like 225 watts of T5 or 300 of MH. Now the bulbs replacement thing is where MH got me. I was just really worried about the heat.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

OK whos doing solar power?

http://www.findsolar.com/?source=sepa

The solar rating of your area is Good for adopting a solar system. This is based upon a solar rating of 4.562 kWh/sq-m/day.


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## gbhil (Oct 28, 2005)

> the T5 bulbs need to be replaced yearly no matter if they burn out or not


Incorrect. T5 lamps are just fluorescent tubes, like all others. Run them until they die or get too black on the ends for your tastes.



> I was counting on the HQI MH bulbs to last 2 years.


Not going to happen. Regardless of manufacturers claims for 6k hours life, and outlandish claims of being rated at 6000hrs/cycled duty, it's not going to happen. You'll be changing the bulbs every 12 months, just like everyone else who successfully uses HID lighting over an aquarium.



> I did look into the seperate pendant bulbs. I was going to go there but I have an Orbit fixture Ive grown partial to. It fits nice I dont have to worry and it includes moonlighting....something ive also grown partial to. I plan on getting the ceiling mount kit.


I understand where you're coming from, and will agree that those hoods are sleek and sexy. But keep in mind the 48" version was probably designed with a 13" deep tank in mind, ala 55 gallon. I'd take a good hard look at someone who's using one over a larger tank just to be on the safe side. If the reflector design allows decent light coverage, you'll be good to go. It's a big investment that you need to be sure you 100% love after it's purchased.

I'm not voting for T5's in your poll-without-a-poll by the way  Nothing (I'll repeat NOTHING) is as pretty IMO as crisp halide lighting over a well maintained large tank. Just want to give you any input I can to help you make an informed decision. If the Sunpod covers the tank well, by all means get it. It will be a great combo, especially with great lamps.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

gbhil said:


> Incorrect. T5 lamps are just fluorescent tubes, like all others. Run them until they die or get too black on the ends for your tastes.
> 
> 
> Not going to happen. Regardless of manufacturers claims for 6k hours life, and outlandish claims of being rated at 6000hrs/cycled duty, it's not going to happen. You'll be changing the bulbs every 12 months, just like everyone else who successfully uses HID lighting over an aquarium.
> ...


I apologize...I didnt mean to label you with my post. I do appreciate your feedback.

I am going to look around a while at single unit fixtures. I will probably make my purchase by the end of this coming week.


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## gbhil (Oct 28, 2005)

Feel free to label me at any time. Might I suggest a label that says: _Just add bourbon!_ :hihi:

Looking forward to seeing what you end up with!


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

You got it. :hihi: 

I am looking at the mogul fixtures and think they will be hot!!! They are just as expensive as the 20" fixtures.

The product data for SunPods say no more hot to touch fixtures. Thats really what I am looking for here...mainly because of safety. I am running 260 watts over the tank now and I am happy. I would imagine 300 watts of halides would be just fine. The position of the lamps in the fixture look perfect for my tank. I emailed the vendor about the tank size and will probably get an answer by Tuesday. I will post pics either way. I am pretty much going forward with metal halides and will have them by next weekend. Yippe.

I was thinking of maybe getting (2) 20" fixtures. Basically so I am not limited to a 48" setup.

Ahhh nothing like a Saturday night chock full of tank maintenance and light bulb shopping.


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## billionzz (Jul 9, 2003)

I guess I don't understand, does the HQI bulbs run just as hot as regular mh bulbs?

Bill


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## attack11 (May 5, 2006)

hqi doesn't run as hot as ed.

ghbil; why would you say a fluorescent doesn't need to be replaced annually when the cri starts to drop.


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## gbhil (Oct 28, 2005)

According to Osram Sylvania's spec sheets:
Medium Mogul base lamps - 752 degrees average bulb temp
Single ended HQI lamps - 932 degrees average bulb temp
Double ended HQI lamps - 1022 degrees average bulb temp

Sunpod fixtures are cooler to the touch due to superior design. Whomever Current has contracted to design their fixtures is doing an excellent job. Coralife needs to kidnap him and force him to rework their equipment. :icon_eek: 

Most fluorescent lamps have a low CRI to start with, and it drops of very quickly with normal use. People concerned with keeping the lamp's visible color true would be better off not using fluorescents to begin with. Think of fluorescents of any type as 'utility lighting' that provides correct intensity at the right wavelength to grow plants, and HID lighting as 'showcase lighting' that can do the same and also highlight certain colors for viewing pleasure.


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## attack11 (May 5, 2006)

i know all of that  

i just found it strange that you'd recommend running a fluorescent past the "expiration date" so to speak while replacing an mh bulb earlier than required. no mh bulb is exactly the same as another unless 2 companies brand the same product, which i doubt happens often, so a generalization of when a bulb should be changed is weak advice at best (research is definitely a must on that topic).


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

gbhil said:


> Sunpod fixtures are cooler to the touch due to superior design. Whomever Current has contracted to design their fixtures is doing an excellent job. Coralife needs to kidnap him and force him to rework their equipment. :icon_eek:


IIRC....its German engineered. Yepper..they do a great job. 

I got the 48" SunPod HQI 2x150w...I will take pics when it comes in. I want to get lower k bulbs for it.

Thank you for all the feedback. I will report more after I set it up.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

attack11 said:


> i know all of that
> 
> i just found it strange that you'd recommend running a fluorescent past the "expiration date" so to speak while replacing an mh bulb earlier than required. no mh bulb is exactly the same as another unless 2 companies brand the same product, which i doubt happens often, so a generalization of when a bulb should be changed is weak advice at best (research is definitely a must on that topic).


I was thinking the same thing. I was going to let the MH bulbs go till they die and change fluorescent. I will know more after I have to change some bulbs.


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## jgc (Jul 6, 2005)

hqi bulbs are just about hot enough to vaporize skin. That said, a decent fixture will isolate this heat near the bulb. It will have airflow outside of the reflector, but inside the fixture. The outside of the fixture should not be too hot to touch. I have an aquamedic fixture. I am pretty sure I can grab it with the bulb on (on the sides, touching the glass would be painfull). It is a fanless fixture.

One unexpected cost I had was premature bulb failures. I had 2 bulbs die young on me before everything stablized. At $75 a bulb that hurt.
---
Mine is remote ballist, and I am using an aftermarket e-ballist. It gets warm to the touch (not hot) as well. - probably keeps the feet of my Amazon sword nice and toasty (it is in the stand, under the aquarium)


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

I heard back from the manufacturer. The fixture is designed for tanks up to 24" deep.

It shipped today and is scheduled to arrive tomorrow, pics coming soon.


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## gbhil (Oct 28, 2005)

Ugh. We keep going around about this.
Halide lamps:
First few days-weeks- very far away from their published specs. Think 'burn in time'
Next 6-9 months - at their published specs.
After this they start to go downhill fast. Higher color temperature lamps even faster. Worthwhile to change them at this point.

Fluorescent lamps:
First few weeks - at their published specs 
After this they go downhill very slowly. Worthwhile to change only when they turn 'green' or burn out. Higher color temp lamps will 'go green' eventually. Lower color temp lamps not as much.

An analogy - 
Geo Metro = Metal Halide lighting
My van = fluorescent lighting

Geo Metro gets 50 mpg.
My van gets 8 mpg.
Metro's air filter clogs, and cuts milage down to 12 mpg. Huge loss of efficiency. 
My van's filter clogs and cuts milage down to 5 mpg. Not so huge loss of efficiency, as it wasn't very efficient to start with.

Both cars will continue to run until engine eventually gets starved of air and will no longer fire. Meanwhile, filter gets more and more clogged. Why choose the Geo Metro if you would be satisfied with milage comparable to my van?


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## gbhil (Oct 28, 2005)

Brilliant said:


> I heard back from the manufacturer. The fixture is designed for tanks up to 24" deep.
> 
> It shipped today and is scheduled to arrive tomorrow, pics coming soon.


Sounds like it will be a nice square pattern of reflected light. You're going to love it, even with the 14k lamps (right?) that are included.

Stock up on the ferts and CO2, and sharpen those scissors....your plants are going to grow like gangbusters.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

LOL I dislike vans altogether so I will take a Geo anyday 

I think I see the point tho... If you dont have anything to lose...what is there to lose?

Yes its 14k. I am thinking about putting in 6400k for my Discus. Right now I have two 10000k/6400k 130watt bulbs in now they dont seem to mind the light one bit and in fact when I installed the fixture they seemed to eat out of the water column better. I am not recommending high light for Discus....

Money and all other stuff aside..what its boiling down to for me is 2 bulbs to replace vs 8 as long as I get a year or more I will be happy.

Metal halide is better then fluorescent so the cost is more.....please pardon any of the other stuff I may have said trying to justify buying this fixture...the money is already spent and its on its way here soo..I dont have to fool myself anymore.  

I have two pair of scissors and a tankful of little plants waiting to be grown!
I also bought the giant jug of tropica mastergro...which seems to be working great.

Whats totaly hilarious about all of this....I have all these fancy light fixtures and right now I am growing all of my plants with these OEM flourescent hood fixtures all stacked up on this one tank.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Its here.



Few things I dont like...

The noticable source of light compared to the PC fixture...
There are bright spots where the bulbs are in the fixture...makes it look like the tank isnt evenly lit.

The fixture makes a slight buzz...I contacted the manufacturer regarding this.

Moonlighting panel in the center of the fixture...where my 90g support brace is...this isnt exactly the fixtures fault but.




Few things I do like...

The coloring of the fish...

Moon lighting cord is unplugable at the fixture...this helps if you dont have a 3" hole drilled in the back of your stand.

Way more moonlighting LEDs...the Cardinals seem to just love the moonlight.



What do I type to insert an image?

I took a few pics...Id rather take a pic of the MH tomorrow because I must have had some air in my Eheims because when I unplugged my power strips the tank lost about two inches. This led to something I havent noticed before the MH...there is a white cloudiness to the water when I add my source water...this may be why the light source looks so damn prominent...I will see tomorrow.


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## gbhil (Oct 28, 2005)

Brilliant said:


> Its here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bright spots and point of source light may go away when lamps burn in a little more. Also, mounting the fixture a bit higher can help.
Buzzing could be new lamps, a bad lamp, bad ballast, etc. Follow through with Current USA and they will make this right I'm sure.




Brilliant said:


> Few things I do like...
> 
> The coloring of the fish...
> 
> ...


I'll bet the fish (esp. Cards) look great under the bluish lamps. Might be something you will miss if you go to 6700k, I know that's the thing I miss most about reefkeeping - the color under antinic/high kelvin lighting 

Having a connector on the fixture end of the DC line for the moonlights shows Current did some homework. As you said, the transformer doesn't fit through the holes most folks have in their stands.




Brilliant said:


> What do I type to insert an image?
> 
> I took a few pics...Id rather take a pic of the MH tomorrow because I must have had some air in my Eheims because when I unplugged my power strips the tank lost about two inches. This led to something I havent noticed before the MH...there is a white cloudiness to the water when I add my source water...this may be why the light source looks so damn prominent...I will see tomorrow.


Host the pic somewhere like tinypic or photobucket. Hit the button at the top of the reply box that looks like mountains, and put the url to the hosted pic there. 

White water could be several things, when you say source water - what's the source?


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

This is before.




This is after.






I put things into my RO/DI water and I quickly mixed it up to fill the low water level I had from unplugging my filters. The water was still chalky, looks white in the after pic. I will see tomorrow. The fish were also schizo from the commotion...the blues looked particularly better. I saw blue in the white spots of my red pigeons. They really arent blue tho.


Oh yah no comments on the tank LOL its total wreckage at the moment. I have a spray bar that isnt pointed right let alone connected. I havent fixed things since I removed the older filters.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Hey thanks for all the feedback.

I did notice it got one heck of alot brighter after it was on for a few minutes. I posted and took the pic about 10 minutes after I hooked it up. 

How come you dont have a reef?
I would really like a reeftank and I am thinking one of these MH fixtures would go perfectly on my 36" 65g tank. I would use the existing 96x2watt fixture for actinics.

I did get to see it shimmer briefly. I didnt want to go off my light cycle. I set it up later in the evening. I was just gazing at my brighter moonlighting for the past half hour...the albino bristle noses seem to really dig it.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

jgc said:


> hqi bulbs are just about hot enough to vaporize skin. That said, a decent fixture will isolate this heat near the bulb. It will have airflow outside of the reflector, but inside the fixture. The outside of the fixture should not be too hot to touch. I have an aquamedic fixture. I am pretty sure I can grab it with the bulb on (on the sides, touching the glass would be painfull). It is a fanless fixture.
> 
> One unexpected cost I had was premature bulb failures. I had 2 bulbs die young on me before everything stablized. At $75 a bulb that hurt.
> ---
> Mine is remote ballist, and I am using an aftermarket e-ballist. It gets warm to the touch (not hot) as well. - probably keeps the feet of my Amazon sword nice and toasty (it is in the stand, under the aquarium)



Touching the glass on this fixture would be like touching the glass on a camping lantern. So far I can grab the black parts of the fixture even after it ran for a bit. Ill see what happens after its on for 6 hours.


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## gbhil (Oct 28, 2005)

Looks great! You have to love the clean look of that fixture. :thumbsup: 



> I did notice it got one heck of alot brighter after it was on for a few minutes. I posted and took the pic about 10 minutes after I hooked it up.


That's normal, especially in the first few weeks. Your lamp colors and intensity (to the naked eye) is going to vary until the lamps have been properly 'seasoned' , so expect things to look slightly out of whack for just a little while. IME 14k DE lamps will settle into a very crisp white after ~40 hours, and take 5-10 minutes to get adjusted when they are turned on in the mornings. 

The point of source effect along with the dark upper corners can be lessened by raising the fixture, but IMO it looks good. Gives the tank more character with areas of intense light vs. the glowing box effect you get from fluorescents. 

About the cloudiness - are your glass tops sparkling clean? Even a small amount of water deposits on them can cause that. Or it could be precipitation of whatever buffer you added to the RO, or maybe not 100% mixed when you added it. Hopefully it went away for you this morning.



> How come you dont have a reef?
> I would really like a reeftank and I am thinking one of these MH fixtures would go perfectly on my 36" 65g tank. I would use the existing 96x2watt fixture for actinics.


We moved last year, and will only be here for another year until our new house is finished (hopefully). Slow going, but should be worth it. I didn't want to go through the trouble of setting up a big tank until I'm in my 'final resting place'  
That fixture would look nice over your 36" tank, filled with coral....next project :icon_idea 

It really looks lovely man. I'm jealous!


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## attack11 (May 5, 2006)

looks good. after the burn in you'll love it.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

gbhil said:


> Looks great! You have to love the clean look of that fixture. :thumbsup:
> 
> That's normal, especially in the first few weeks. Your lamp colors and intensity (to the naked eye) is going to vary until the lamps have been properly 'seasoned' , so expect things to look slightly out of whack for just a little while. IME 14k DE lamps will settle into a very crisp white after ~40 hours, and take 5-10 minutes to get adjusted when they are turned on in the mornings.
> 
> ...


I am really understanding the comment about dark spots and character.

My glass tops have about two months of water spots on them  I meant to clean them but I took the original pic with them cloudy so.. I will clean them today. The cloudiness isnt as bad right now...I think it was that mixture issue. I shouldnt have tried to do things soo quickly...I know this is silly but I was trying to get it setup before the timers would go off.

One thing I did notice...the tank appears less lit with the MH...but when you compare the photos the gravel in the MH pic is completely brighter. Things are much whiter. The light is on now...I am totaly digging the shimmer effect...I have to position my other spraybar better so I get the same effect on the other side.

I understand about the reef tank..hopefully things work out for the best...patience is good tho  
YES! I am really thinking about a reef tank filled with soft corals. I love my apistos and discus tho...I may have to start saving for something nice....

Hey dont be jealous....YET....LMAO J/K... I know the fixture is very sleek I LOVE IT....I do wish they put the lights like one or two inches farther apart but then in a few weeks after they burn in and my centered red plants are thriving I will sing a different tune.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

attack11 said:


> looks good. after the burn in you'll love it.



Thank you! I just noticed your tank...I went hunting for it after you spoke of your HQI...I really like the 14k in your tank.

I cant really decide what I want...I love the shimmering...white light...I also love black water and my 20L apisto tank...looks very dark in there but plenty of watts and plants growing good even new harder to keep ones.

I will give these bulbs some time and see how I feel afterwards. Thank you for all the comments, you made me feel a much better about the heat issue and I was more comfortable purchasing this fixture.


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## attack11 (May 5, 2006)

np. personally i really liked the look of the 14000k bulbs on my fish and most of my plants, but after a while i started to dislike the way my red plants looked. i think 14000k can look really good if you plan your aquarium around that color. it's great for a reef tank because there's such a wide variety of possible colors.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

attack11 said:


> np. personally i really liked the look of the 14000k bulbs on my fish and most of my plants, but after a while i started to dislike the way my red plants looked. i think 14000k can look really good if you plan your aquarium around that color. it's great for a reef tank because there's such a wide variety of possible colors.


I am kinda finding out what you mean about the reds. I have no more sunsets on my sunsets.  

I am ordering 6500k bulbs.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

FYI the fixture is being removed. I am going to put it on my 75 gallon.

The reason I am moving it is because of the discus...I was pressing my luck with the 130x2 PC on there this is just WAY too much...when I finally get the 6500k bulbs I will give it a whirl but as it stands now the 75g will be blessed with this fixture.

I am completely hooked on this mooonlighting tho...I wish I could get good pics somehow. The Cardinals are attracted to it at night and they bunch up ina tight shoal under it....I have one pic but it looks like a 2 year olds drawing.

The largest blue discus is just marvelous under this moonlighting at night....words cant explain it...


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