# Critique my Cerges Please



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

My regulator has been shipped and my water filter housing is already here, so it is time to design and build my Cerges reactor. I'm very familiar with the famous post 770 outlining all the parts but I've also been shown by @EmotionalFescue and @Immortal1 the reasons behind a bypass valve and a back pressure valve. So here's my design:










Water exits the Eheim canister at 1, splits off at 2 to either bypass or head to the reactor. 3 is the bypass valve, 4 is a cutoff valve. CO2 is injected at 5 and of course 6 is the reactor. 7 is the back pressure valve.


a - hose barbs
b - tee connectors
c - ball valves
eqd - Eheim (or JBL) quick disconnects.

I have a few questions and of course I welcome additional comments. First, the cut off valve. It just seems that it should be there. I can close it and the back pressure valve and open up the reactor for servicing. However. Given the height of the reactor and the internal tube, it doesn't seem possible to actually remove the clear reactor for any servicing. Is this an issue?

Leaks. How can I possible assemble this and test it for leaks? It is complete rigid and once assembled cannot be disassembled for leak preventing.

The Eheim (or JBL) quick disconnects are pretty cool. It looks like I can use them at points 4 and 7 instead of ball valves. It lets me remove the reactor for servicing and at the same time it solves the rigidity problem since the reactor will at least be in 2 pieces now, top and bottom. However, I cannot get them locally and although Amazon Prime might get them here by this weekend that is iffy. Basically I have to order today and cross my fingers. They're also about $35 for pair. I can add them later, at point eqd and make the reactor removable, but it doesn't help with the rigidity issue. Beside, I don't think it will look at nice if it isn't rigid. @Immortal1, your picture of your reactor is a thing of beauty.

What else have I missed?

Oh, the reason I want the back pressure valve is for future re-use. I can see a 125 gallon tank in my future once I retire. I'm pretty sure I won't need it now on my current setup.


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

i think this looks good!

regarding the cutoff valve - i see no reason to not put one in. it's not needed to control the flow through the reactor, since the bypass and back-pressure valves let you do that. it could conceivably allow you to remove the reactor with the pump on (open 3; close 4 and 7). not sure how often you'd need to do that, but it can't hurt. 

one thing i'm noticing is that it looks like you're having the co2 infused water flow down the central pipe of the reactor and back up through the main volume of the housing. if that's right, i think you'll want to reverse that to give the co2 maximum contact time with the water inside the reactor. you can have the infused water flow down the central port if you have an empty RO canister in there (you'd want to remove the fabric rings at the top and bottom so there is unimpeded flow) as that would devote most of the reactor's water volume to the area where bubbles churn.

is your reactor housing the type that has the pressure release valve at the top? if so, that is reason enough to have a back pressure valve. when you first install the reactor, close 3 and 7, open 4, and depress the pressure release 'button' on the top of the housing and all of the air will be immediately purged. this is another good reason to have the water flow out through the central port rather than in through it.

Bump: actually, the cutoff valve would allow you to remove the reactor with the tank full without you starting a siphon that would lead to an unexpected water change onto your floor. so, i say go for it


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

EmotionalFescue said:


> i think this looks good!


Thanks!



EmotionalFescue said:


> regarding the cutoff valve - i see no reason to not put one in. it's not needed to control the flow through the reactor, since the bypass and back-pressure valves let you do that. it could conceivably allow you to remove the reactor with the pump on (open 3; close 4 and 7). not sure how often you'd need to do that, but it can't hurt.
> 
> Bump: actually, the cutoff valve would allow you to remove the reactor with the tank full without you starting a siphon that would lead to an unexpected water change onto your floor. so, i say go for it


Exactly my thinking. Easy and cheap to put on now, unless I go with the Eheim cutoff, and hard to put on later.



EmotionalFescue said:


> one thing i'm noticing is that it looks like you're having the co2 infused water flow down the central pipe of the reactor and back up through the main volume of the housing. if that's right, i think you'll want to reverse that to give the co2 maximum contact time with the water inside the reactor.


Oh! Good catch, thanks! I've read so many posts I saw one with multiple reactors where the last one had the central down. But when I think about it more, "your" way here makes more sense.



EmotionalFescue said:


> is your reactor housing the type that has the pressure release valve at the top? if so, that is reason enough to have a back pressure valve. when you first install the reactor, close 3 and 7, open 4, and depress the pressure release 'button' on the top of the housing and all of the air will be immediately purged. this is another good reason to have the water flow out through the central port rather than in through it.


It does and thanks for the instructions there.

I was planning on using PVC, not metal fittings. When attaching to the reactor, I'm guessing I'll need some teflon tape. The other PVC to PVC joints will just use that purple PVC glue. And the barbs will use hose clamps.

The more I think about it I think I like the Eheim quick disconnects though, but PVC would look better. :- )


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

fwiw, i use these in place of traditional quick connects: http://green-leaf.us/camlock-fitting/

you can get them in all sorts of diameters and they integrate well with pvc.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

EmotionalFescue said:


> fwiw, i use these in place of traditional quick connects: Camlock Fitting ? Green Leaf Inc
> 
> you can get them in all sorts of diameters and they integrate well with pvc.


I love being able to browse and hold stuff in my hand. I doubt my rural hardware stores or even Home Depot carries them, at least the HD website didn't even list them. But... really cool to know about for future projects. I've ordered the Ista clones of the Eheim connectors. Actually, I stole them from my wife since the Ista ones won't be here for a week. They are half the price of the Eheim ones and seem to be more like the JBL ones, you can use the levers to help separate, as opposed to using the levers to spill water on the ground when separating... :- )

It's not 6pm, too late to head to Home Depot. But I found some all the parts I need to carry with me to Home Depot tomorrow after work, even found some old Fluval hose which looks exactly the same inside diameter as Eheim 16/22 hose, so I can carry that with me to check out barb fittings. Found two barb fittings also, one almost too small but the other way too big. Even the hot water trick on the hose didn't get it one. I'll probably have to use the too small size and a hose clamp, but I'll see what the Home Depot aisles give me.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

vertical pvc pipe inside the reactor should be on the outlet side, so the slow moving water in the reactor moving down instead of moving up.

other than that, everything looks good!


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I just got back from Home Depot. Weekday nights are the best for designing on the fly. I had a very helpful associate who just loved DIY weird stuff. He helped a lot.










I wasn't too happy with the left hand side not being 3/4" ID but the guy thought they there wouldn't be that much flow reduction and then when I realized that the Eheim Quick Disconnects, used on many tanks, had that exact some reduction, and then I thought about the spray bar. Now there's some reduction.

That reminds me, I need to drill the holes in my spray bar bigger. LOL.


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

fun stuff!


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

My CO2 Arts regulator arrived today. I can start the Leak Test but I don't know if the white washer they give us in the box is a "use once" crush washer or I can use it multiple times. CO2 Arts' video show the installation, but not a leak test.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> I just got back from Home Depot. Weekday nights are the best for designing on the fly. I had a very helpful associate who just loved DIY weird stuff. He helped a lot.
> 
> I wasn't too happy with the left hand side not being 3/4" ID but the guy thought they there wouldn't be that much flow reduction and then when I realized that the Eheim Quick Disconnects, used on many tanks, had that exact some reduction, and then I thought about the spray bar. Now there's some reduction.
> 
> That reminds me, I need to drill the holes in my spray bar bigger. LOL.



Just my 0.02 - if you arrange the (2) elbows as shown in the picture below it will give you some natural back pressure to the flow going thru the reactor. This likely will give your a little better response on your by-pass valve. Total GPH thru the reactor and thru the by-pass valve "should" end up being the same as the total GPH of your canister filter w/o the reactor.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> Just my 0.02 - if you arrange the (2) elbows as shown in the picture below it will give you some natural back pressure to the flow going thru the reactor. This likely will give your a little better response on your by-pass valve.


Oh I like that, thanks!

But... I do need to return all this stuff and start again. Why? All those blue connectors and the eheim quick disconnect makes for a total length of 34 inches! That's unacceptable. I laid it out on the workbench today after work.










I'll go to straight PVC, not threaded, use a PVC union and ball valve, not the Eheim quick disconnects. That should trim it by a lot. I'll loose 2-3" on the quick disconnect and an 2-"3 inches on _each_ barb to barb connection, they're just huge.

I need to sit and draw some diagrams tonight and then head over after work tomorrow.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

@Immortal1 I'm looking at the picture of your reactor. How did you assemble it?

The elbows in and out of your canister, are they threaded on the outside? I don't see how that attaches.

It is completely rigid, which I like, but I don't see how the last joint was made. The lengths just seem too short to allow any flex. Here's one one to start gluing the joints.










It all makes sense until you get 8 and 9 done. It's not a rigid assembly, how does ? get in there?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

I suppose it looks a bit intimidating at first. 
First off, a fair amount of test fitting was needed before the PVC cement was opened up.
Starting with #4 and #? - these are 3/4" PVC "street elbows" (male threaded on one end, slip joint female on the other end). #4 is input, #? is output.

Between #5 and #3 is a standard 3/4" PVC slip joint "T". Where the CO2 enters, I glued a piece of 3/4" PVC pipe into the end of the "T" to make it smaller. The PVC pipe was threaded with a standard pipe thread tool (tap) to allow a brass reducer to be threaded in. The brass reducer allowed me to thread in a pipe to compression fitting which connects the co2 tubing to the reactor (basically like what you already have).

Connecting the "T" to the street elbow (#4) and the 90 degree elbow is regular 3/4" PVC pipe - glued in-place.

The 90 degree elbow is then connected to another slip joint "T" with 3/4" PVC pipe. This "T" is then connect to a 90 degree Elbow with 3/4" PVC Pipe (#2). Then there is a 3/4" threaded female to 3/4" PVC connector (#1) which connects to the 90 degree elbow with 3/4" PVC (glued).

Going back to the "T" between #6 and #2, I then used 3/4" PVC pipe to connect to a 3/4" PVC adapter (3/4" slip joint to 3/4" male pipe) on each end of the 3/4" threaded PVC Ball valve (by-pass valve)(very much like what you already have).

Now, go to the other end of the reactor (output)(#?) - I assembled the Output to Tank, "T" fitting, 3/4" PVC pipe (#8) and 90 degree fitting. 

I then used 3/4" PVC pipe at #? and the output of the ByPass Valve to connect the above assembly (#8) to the rest of the reactor.

Once completed, the down side is you cannot take it apart (hope those threaded connections to the reactor housing and all the glue joints don't leak). In my case, after years of use my By-Pass valve is very tight due to Calcium build up - does not move much but was close enough when I switched to a different canister filter. A gate valve might be a better choice.

Something else to look at - the little holes in the head of the water filter housing (reactor) tend to be smaller than I would like. i.e., 3/8" hole even though the head is set up for 3/4" pipe.
I enlarged the holes in the head of the water filter housing to allow for more flow. 

You having a clear housing is nice - you can see how the bubbles are reacting within the reactor. You will have bubbles bouncing around in there, that is normal. If a big bubble of gas builds up, close down your by-pass valve more. If you get a lot of CO2 bubbles in your tank, open up your by-pass more.

Hope this helps, and more importantly makes some sense ;-)


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

NotThePainter said:


> My CO2 Arts regulator arrived today. I can start the Leak Test but I don't know if the white washer they give us in the box is a "use once" crush washer or I can use it multiple times. CO2 Arts' video show the installation, but not a leak test.


Generally speaking, those washers are nylon and can be reused without issues. If you end up getting your CO2 tank refilled at a industrial supplier like Praxair or Airliquide or the like they will usually give you a couple of nylon washers for free. Worst case scenario is they charge you like $.89 for one. 

Sent from my mobile device using Tapatalk Pro


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> I suppose it looks a bit intimidating at first.
> First off, a fair amount of test fitting was needed before the PVC cement was opened up.
> Starting with #4 and #? - these are 3/4" PVC "street elbows" (male threaded on one end, slip joint female on the other end). #4 is input, #? is output.
> 
> ...


Thank you! I was able to follow along, so it did help. My new design, which is still forming in my head, will have 2 PVC unions, I wasn't able to get those cool cam lock ones locally. The unions take the place of the quick disconnects and they are only about 2" across. But the really cool thing about incorporating the unions is that I shouldn't have any assembly issues. Of course I'll have to dry fit, but it should work out nice. I'll share build photos, hopefully this weekend.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> Thank you! I was able to follow along, so it did help. My new design, which is still forming in my head, will have 2 PVC unions, I wasn't able to get those cool cam lock ones locally. The unions take the place of the quick disconnects and they are only about 2" across. But the really cool thing about incorporating the unions is that I shouldn't have any assembly issues. Of course I'll have to dry fit, but it should work out nice. I'll share build photos, hopefully this weekend.


Look forward to your build pics!


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

I've enjoyed this thread, OP. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

I'm helping my wife set up a new planted tank at the moment, and took the opportunity to try something a bit different with the reactor. Inspired by your bypass design, @Immortal1, though I cheated and used some flexible tubing. Also trying out the wide body 10" housing, which I've never used before.

http://imgur.com/a/mqlLbSZ

Plumbing is fun!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

EmotionalFescue said:


> I've enjoyed this thread, OP. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
> 
> I'm helping my wife set up a new planted tank at the moment, and took the opportunity to try something a bit different with the reactor. Inspired by your bypass design, @*Immortal1*, though I cheated and used some flexible tubing. Also trying out the wide body 10" housing, which I've never used before.
> 
> ...


Absolutely nothing wrong with that design - reasonably compact, and in a way expandable. By that, I mean you could add larger hose barbs if you got a larger canister filter.
The little red air bleed on the top of the housing is handy.


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## Capsaicin_MFK (Nov 15, 2009)

EmotionalFescue said:


> I've enjoyed this thread, OP. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
> 
> I'm helping my wife set up a new planted tank at the moment, and took the opportunity to try something a bit different with the reactor. Inspired by your bypass design, @Immortal1, though I cheated and used some flexible tubing. Also trying out the wide body 10" housing, which I've never used before.
> 
> ...


That is a clean reactor setup, great job!


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

EmotionalFescue said:


> I've enjoyed this thread, OP. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
> 
> I'm helping my wife set up a new planted tank at the moment, and took the opportunity to try something a bit different with the reactor. Inspired by your bypass design, @Immortal1, though I cheated and used some flexible tubing. Also trying out the wide body 10" housing, which I've never used before.


Thanks! Your new design looks very neat but I don't under stand the function of the upper ball valve. If that's providing back pressure, shouldn't the bypass go around it?



EmotionalFescue said:


> Plumbing is fun!


It is! I Just got back from Home Depot with all the parts I need for version 2. I had a great bit of luck. There was one section that was weird. I had 2 designs, one of which was far better than the other, but I didn’t know if the part existed, I thought I would need multiple adaptors. The *very first* part I picked up was that part!


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

NotThePainter said:


> EmotionalFescue said:
> 
> 
> > I've enjoyed this thread, OP. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
> ...


It is for back pressure. The bypass doesn't have to go around it... I don't have as much control over the reactor flow this way versus if the bypass connected after the BP valve, but I don't need it in this instance because the reactor volume is so huge relative to the pump's output. It's just for burping and will otherwise be open.

All hooked up: http://imgur.com/a/BgVC6PA

That's a fluval 307 for reference. Those wide body housings are huge!

This is all total overkill for this tank but wanted to try something new. Anything worth doing is worth overdoing amirite?


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Here's the "final" design.










a) hose barb
b) female 3/4 thread, smooth coupler
c) tee
d) 90 elbow
d') 45 degree elbow, not sure which I'll use so I bought both
e) 3/4" gate valve
f) 3/4" ball valve
g) 3/4" union
h) 3/4" smooth tee, with 1/2" threaded female top, misc brass reducer and barb
i) 3/4" smooth to threaded male
j) 3/4" pipe

Water enters at the upper left and splits, some doing through the bypass valve and some through the reactor. This is a gate valve that I had lying around from another project. 

The top ball valve is a cutoff valve which will always be open unless I want to physically remove the reactor from the system while the canister is running. I'll need to close the bottom, back pressure, valve also to remove it. The back pressure valve is probably also going to be always open since I'm only running a 75 gallon tank with low CO2. But this was designed for a future 125 tank.

CO2 is injected at 4, swirls around the top of the housing then bubble less water exits the canister, runs back to the left, through the back pressure valve.

Dry fitting should be today, hopefully gluing also, but we'll see how it goes.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Ok, that was more work than expected but I'm happy with the end result. Here's the first layout on the workbench.










I'm still shocked at just how big this is. It is still unusable in my opinion. But when looking at it I realized I can remove the cutoff valve. The only reason I put it in was to permit me to remove the reactor while the filter was running. That will be rare but it was free in terms of space. But... I realized this added almost 6 inches of length because the bypass valve can be in front of the CO2 injector. So here's the modified design.



















But it's still pretty big. (You can see how I used the 45 degree elbows.)

Immortal1 went vertical. I messed around with that some. I meant I needed to add an additional 90 bend in the bypass path but I think the space savings are certainly worth it. But it did mean another trip to the hardware store. Here it is!










That's still dry fitted. I want to sleep on the design and It's 4pm here, and I need to do a water change in the quarantine tank. I do have one question though. This gap at the bottom for the riser tube just looks too small. It is easy to cut the tube shorter, but harder to cut it longer!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Very much like the latest design! As for the gap at the bottom, should probably be bigger. But, Holes in the stand pipe serve the same purpose. Using a table saw, you could also cut horizontal slots in the stand pipe (maybe 3 on each side?)


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> Very much like the latest design! As for the gap at the bottom, should probably be bigger. But, Holes in the stand pipe serve the same purpose. Using a table saw, you could also cut horizontal slots in the stand pipe (maybe 3 on each side?)


Absolutely inspired by yours! Going vertical with the bypass and CO2 injector reduces the footprint.

My table saw is still disassembled... I'll make it short or drill holes or something, thanks!


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

It's up and running, leaking, but running. I'm pretty sure I can fix both leaks but I am having an issue getting all the air out of the housing. But let's start at the beginning.

I first tested the two threaded joints. These would not be glued and therefore they worried me. So I built this jig. 










Sprayed soapy water and plugged one pipe with my palm and blew into the other. I had a little leak, so I taped the joints, which I figured I'd need anyway, but it was a good way to make sure I could detect leaks, and gave them about a full turn with a wrench. No leaks!

I figured I start off with unimportant joints. I really didn't want to waste my $30 gate valve so I had to have some practice with the PVC solvent before gluing that part. It has been years since I've glued PVC and man, had I forgotten somethings. Here's my first joint.










Notice the huge gap? I was really surprised by how it pushed apart after you connected the two pieces together. I soon realized I just needed to hold them together, tightly, for a 30 count. After 30 I wiped off the stuff that oozed out and did another 30, then onto the next joint. If the joint was a critical joint, critical in that it had to not rotate afterwards, I waited a full 5 minutes.

So then I built up this part










This was the critical part and I hated starting with it. That's the gate valve and the parts either need to be in line or 90 degrees. I was pretty careful, using a red sharpie, and did a halfway decent job.

Soon I had this on the workbench and broke for lunch. 










I had already screwed up something. I had my red lines on the critical part, but nothing on the boring part. I glued the boring part first, which rotated the boring part 180 degrees. I glued up the next part, the part holding the CO2 injector, did my 30 count and holy crap, it is upside down! I twisted it around and held it for thirty more. Phew, I had escaped disaster. (At this point the narrator gives a voices over, "But he had not escaped disaster.")

After lunch I built this part:










It has a red line showing how the rear 90 orients to the housing. Then I inserted the straight piece into the other end of the union and saw just how much I had to cut off. I was really worried about this measurement and it was easy!

The union joint was instrumental in making this easy. It lets you _slide in the last piece_ for a measurement. Then you put the 2nd union piece on and the back part now moves too far away. You measure that amount and cut that off the front.

I cut it, glued everything, and sat back and admired it.



















Ok, that's not exactly right. I was hating all the UPC bars, red text, and purple goop. So I sat down with my knife and sandpaper and removed 80% of it. I figured it wasn't time wasted since I didn't want to put water through it immediately.

I managed to scrounge together some hose and adaptors from a junk bin and built a test rig. Time for power!










A leak!










This is coming from the where the elbow joins the horizontal piece to the vertical piece with the CO2 injector. This is the exact part I manipulated after 30 seconds. Arghhh...

The housing also leaks.










But I just crank down with the wrench some. It was only hand tight plus maybe 1/8 of a turn with the wrench.

To fix the leak I'm going to have cut this at the arrow.










And remove everything to the left. I'll use a coupler at the arrow and buy new PVC for all the others. Of course I'll reuse the brass parts. This won't cost much, except my pride.

I'll fix the housing leak with the wrench.

Now for the part I can't figure out. I am not able to purge all the air from the housing. I got it so I only had about half an inch of air.






But after I turned the pump off and on again, I had way more air up there. I tried closing the back pressure valve all the way but that just shot a lot of water out of the red button. My hope is that this won't be an issue when I have more powerful pump. I was using a baby power head to drive it, but I would like to get it to work on the bench before I install it under the tank.

Any advice is appreciated, thanks everybody!


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

Hmm. I'm confused about where the new air came from when you turned the pump off and back on. Your intake and return lines were submerged in a bucket the whole time?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

FWIW, when you service your canister filter you will typically get an air bubble in the reactor - not a big deal. After you bleed out most of the air, the rest will dissolve in time.

Sorry to hear about the leak - it happens.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

EmotionalFescue said:


> Hmm. I'm confused about where the new air came from when you turned the pump off and back on. Your intake and return lines were submerged in a bucket the whole time?


The hoses to the pump and have barb connectors that seem to be leaking air. I was getting a steady stream of air from the exit hose in the bucket. So that's probably what is refilling the housing.

Bump:


Immortal1 said:


> FWIW, when you service your canister filter you will typically get an air bubble in the reactor - not a big deal. After you bleed out most of the air, the rest will dissolve in time.
> 
> Sorry to hear about the leak - it happens.


Of course it will dissolve, I should have thought of that! I sit right next to the tank at work, so I really like quiet systems. Good to know it will turn quiet.

Should I be taping the threads on the housing? I guess it wouldn't hurt but it is difficult to see how a homeowner would do that since they'll have to service their filter periodically.


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

You shouldn't have to tape the housing threads. There should be a gasket to prevent leaks.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

EmotionalFescue said:


> You shouldn't have to tape the housing threads. There should be a gasket to prevent leaks.


Agreed with above. At most maybe a little Vasalene or equivalent on the threads. Those housing are originally designed to hold back 50-100psi so the minimal amount of pressure you are generating should be pretty easy to overcome.


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## Capsaicin_MFK (Nov 15, 2009)

Super Lube Silicone O-Ring Grease is a must have for the hobby. I use it on everything with an o-ring (solenoids, FX4 filter, cerge's reactor). I found out the hard way that PVC cement doesn't do well on threaded pieces and I then switched to using teflon tape (wrapped around like 10 times). I hope you come out of this leak-free!


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## Uncle_R (Jan 31, 2018)

Capsaicin_MFK said:


> Super Lube Silicone O-Ring Grease is a must have for the hobby. I use it on everything with an o-ring (solenoids, FX4 filter, cerge's reactor). I found out the hard way that PVC cement doesn't do well on threaded pieces and I then switched to using teflon tape (wrapped around like 10 times). I hope you come out of this leak-free!




+1 on the Super Lube. Great for O-rings in faucets too. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Thanks for the tip on the Super Lube. I ordered it today. Our local Home Depot can order it for me but amazon can get it here in 2 days. I tried to solve the air leak problems to at least get it working. I wasn't able to, the connections on my test rig are just too sketchy.

I have a theory that my tiny pump just can't pump faster than the riser tube siphons it out! I tried putting the feed bucket on the work bench but my hoses just weren't working and I got things pretty wet.

Since I was ordering anyhow from Amazon I added some Eheim 16/22 hose, which I'm pretty sure I'll need anyhow. The trick here will be to somehow use it in my test rig and then use it on the tank, cutting it only just the right amount. The good news is that the input line to the filter doesn't need to change so that leaves me 10 feet to play with.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I figured out why the housing was leaking.










Yeah, I'm officially an idiot. I remember taking it apart in my office to make sure that they included the gasket. It must have fallen out. I found it yesterday. I thought it might be a spare. Nope, my assembly from before was without the gasket. No wonder it leaked. I still put the Super Lube on it though, both because you all recommended it and so did Culligan.

This next shot just shows the beauty of a PVC union. I cut the 2 1/2" piece at the bottom of the photo then just unscrewed the union. It made dry fitting and getting the 90 degrees bends super easy.










And now it is all assembled again. I had to replace everything on the left in the above photo, except for the brass pieces.










I should let it dry overnight but man, I so want to test it. Last time I let it dry about an hour or two.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Don't feel bad. I changed the oil in my car one time and forgot to put the oil pan plug (screw) back in before adding the new oil. This was about 35 years ago while I was still living with my parents. Needless to say, my father brings it up to this day! 

Hook that bad boy up!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Given the low pressure of our systems, I would not worry too much about letting it dry over nite. Guessing within 15 minutes the connection is tight enough you will not be able to move it. Plenty good enough for me. As for the gasket - it happens. Better to catch it now during testing as opposed to after you spent 2-3 hours getting everything hooked up and primed (oh wait, that was me).


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I just started my 2nd glass of wine, we have bread machine bread waiting, and a pork stew just about to beep from the InstaPot. Tomorrow...


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> I just started my 2nd glass of wine, we have bread machine bread waiting, and a pork stew just about to beep from the InstaPot. Tomorrow...


Oh yeah, definitely tomorrow! Now I'm hungry....


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

You could have stopped after, "2nd glass of wine..."


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Well, it is almost leak free... :- (

Its the gate valve, leaking from the shaft, not one of the slip joints. It looks like I can maybe open it up and clean it out. I hope so. That was $30, but man, It also means I need to rip out almost all the PVC and start over if I can't fix that. I'd probably also just use a ball valve, it is far cheaper. And if I do have to redo it, I'm going to find some places to put unions in. At least that way I only need to replace sections.

I do have a further issue, here's the output from my check valve.










I was running 30psi with the bubble counter going crazy for 10-15 minutes. No CO2 seems to leave the leave the check valve. (And yes, it is in the right direction and I tested it both ways.) I turned it up to to 50psi, then 70. They still didn't move. I'm baffled by that.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I have the gate valve apart! The bad news is that I'm not sure how to put it back together. LOL.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> I have the gate valve apart! The bad news is that I'm not sure how to put it back together. LOL.


Show me a pic.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> Show me a pic.


Thanks, but I did get it all back together, it was pretty easy. I've made a short video which is uploading now.

The good news is I only have one leak now from one of the threaded barb connectors, I'll just retape that and I'm good to go. I still don't know why I'm not getting CO2, I'll let it run for a few hours.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

From what I can see, the check valve looks like it is installed correctly (correct flow direction). I guess to test things, unplug the hose going into the check valve from the regulator - do you get CO2 coming out of the hose? (put it under water to see bubbles). Install the check valve only on the end of the hose - do you get CO2 coming out of the hose?
Disconnect your hose from the Reactor - do you get CO2 coming out of the hose?

My guess is - just a guess - something is stuck in the brass fitting that is at the reactor.
If you continue to have issues with the thread tape (not really a fan of it in these situations), I would go with thread compound. It's a thick paste for threaded plumbing connections. Generally for our pressure levels, you can apply the paste to the threads, assemble, and put into use immediately. The paste is thick enough and sticky enough that water just can't push past it. In other words, you don't have to over tighten the threaded connection to get a good seal.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

+1 on using paste. I also am in agreement about the brass fitting. If you used Teflon tape on it, and I suspect you did, there is a chance that when you put the tape on the fitting you might have inadvertently blocked the hole. It's also important that the Teflon tape is applied to the fittings in the correct direction.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Here's the gate valve rebuild video.






I cut the CO2 tubing before the check valve. It bubbles in my bucket of water. It was also possible, but difficult, to blow into the tubing putting my breath into the reactor. It required far more pressure than I would have guessed. I cut the check valve off the reactor and a nice stream of water shot out. I think there is some decent pressure on the brass side.

This could be because all my tests have been run with the bypass valve fully closed. I was trying to get as much flow through the reactor as possible to get the air out of it.

I just set up with the by bypass valve mostly open and the back pressure valve halfway shut. This should limit flow through the reactor. I'm using a small marineland power head, but it is rated at 750gph, that's about twice what the Eheim is rated at if my memory is correct. So that's a lot of pressure.

I'll let it run a few hours and measure the pH. After all, I am trying to get the pH to drop, right?


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

ReeferRusso said:


> +1 on using paste. I also am in agreement about the brass fitting. If you used Teflon tape on it, and I suspect you did, there is a chance that when you put the tape on the fitting you might have inadvertently blocked the hole. It's also important that the Teflon tape is applied to the fittings in the correct direction.


Oh I was super careful, both to just get it on the threads and to not block it. But yeah, I could see how this would be an easy mistake!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

I REALLY need to get a gate valve like that as opposed to the ball valve that I am using. Being able to take it apart and rebuild, so to speak, would be very valuable to me! Nice video.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> I REALLY need to get a gate valve like that as opposed to the ball valve that I am using. Being able to take it apart and rebuild, so to speak, would be very valuable to me! Nice video.


Thanks. I'd send you over to glass holes dot com but sadly the website is gone. They were a great place to shop.

It also turns really nicely!


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Happy dance here in NH.

That's after about an hour of running. I'm thinking that some of the earlier testing in the day also contributed since my pH is usually a little higher than that.

But a drop like that means CO2 is getting into the water. Yay!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Welcome to the world of High Tech


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Double happy dance. Notice the lighting. My USB flashlight died just as I was finishing up. I went to plug it into the charger and there was my clip on music stand light. What a great under the tank light!

The CO2 bottle is just held up with a bungie cord around the rear center brace. But the filter housing is attached with its mounting bracket to a vertical piece of wood I had around. That is glued to the tank stand. You can see I didn't want to wait for the glue to dry.










Man, it was tight getting everything to fit down there. I couldn't have done with any of my designs, @Immortal1's vertical is the way to go.

Thanks everybody for sticking with me. Tomorrow I'll hook up the CO2.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Looks like a very nice install. Kinda made me laugh a bit - my 10# CO2 tank is just shoved into the back corner. Each reactor is more or less held in place by a ZipTie. But, I do have exotic cabinet lighting LOL.
I think I already mentioned - priming your filter is a bit of a learning curve after maintenance but it can be done. Just realized you have an Eheim Pro 4 filter.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> Looks like a very nice install. Kinda made me laugh a bit - my 10# CO2 tank is just shoved into the back corner. Each reactor is more or less held in place by a ZipTie. But, I do have exotic cabinet lighting LOL.
> I think I already mentioned - priming your filter is a bit of a learning curve after maintenance but it can be done. Just realized you have an Eheim Pro 4 filter.


Thanks! I didn't want to bump when doing something and have it fall over. I have a 3, not a 4, priming is usually easy but still, I had to empty the input hose, I was worried. It started right up. And then I guess the siphon end back filled the housing or something, it looks like little to no air is in there.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

You think that's a tight fit? I have an FX6 + FX4 + CO2 tank, regulator and flow meter + a 20" x 4.5" Cerges reactor all in a 48" cabinet (90g).


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

ReeferRusso said:


> You think that's a tight fit? I have an FX6 + FX4 + CO2 tank, regulator and flow meter + a 20" x 4.5" Cerges reactor all in a 48" cabinet (90g).


Ouch! Why do you have so much filtration?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

ReeferRusso said:


> You think that's a tight fit? I have an FX6 + FX4 + CO2 tank, regulator and flow meter + a 20" x 4.5" Cerges reactor all in a 48" cabinet (90g).


Pic or it didn't happen - LOL, just kidding. That is a lot of filtration for a 90g though. I only have a FX4 on my 75g full of rainbow fish. Wish I could fit a FX6 but just did not have enough vertical space in my stand.


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

This is a really slick setup, OP. well done.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

NotThePainter said:


> Ouch! Why do you have so much filtration?


Well, some might say I'm cuckoo and overfiltering. In which case they would be right on the former but can you really ever overfilter?  

Actually, I have the FX6 as my main filtration and the FX4 more as a dedicated drive for the 20" x 4.5" Cerges. The FX4 basically just has the stock sponges in it. It also can serve as a chemical filter when I need to run Carbon, Purigen, etc. which I am presently running because I replaced my old driftwood with a large piece (about 50" long with many twists and turns). I did soak it in one of our tubs for several weeks changing the water out everyday. However, it is pretty good sized and is still leaching tannins. However, I really like it so I'll keep dealing with the tannins.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Immortal1 said:


> Pic or it didn't happen - LOL, just kidding. That is a lot of filtration for a 90g though. I only have a FX4 on my 75g full of rainbow fish. Wish I could fit a FX6 but just did not have enough vertical space in my stand.


Ask and you shall receive. (Bear in mind that it's presently what I consider to be a disaster in there!)


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

ReeferRusso said:


> Ask and you shall receive. (Bear in mind that it's presently what I consider to be a disaster in there!)
> 
> View attachment 1025256
> View attachment 1025257


Yep, looks like a very busy place. And, also confirms what I suspected - a FX6 is too tall to fit in my location. You must have used a pretty good shoe horn to get that 20" reactor in there LOL.


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## jaz419 (Jan 21, 2018)

ReeferRusso said:


> Ask and you shall receive. (Bear in mind that it's presently what I consider to be a disaster in there!)
> 
> View attachment 1025256
> View attachment 1025257


Not to hijack the thread, but I’m just curious if you’re running those pH lines up into your tank or if you’ve modified something that the sensors could be in line or something, and not have to be in the display?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

jaz419 said:


> Not to hijack the thread, but I’m just curious if you’re running those pH lines up into your tank or if you’ve modified something that the sensors could be in line or something, and not have to be in the display?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The pH line goes to a meter that I have in the tank. I am not aware of any inline sensors for pH metering. This does not mean they do not exist it's simply that I have never seen one. Please let us know if you know of any inline meters.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

The 5PM update.

There is a minor leak at the shaft of the gate valve. I tried tightening things but I was unwilling to add any more force. The good news is that it leaks about 2-3 drops a minute when it is fully closed but I don't need it mostly open. I opened it just enough to get some flow through the reactor and it is only leaking a drop or so every 15 minutes. That's enough to land in a tray. (And unlike @ReeferRusso, I have room for a tray, LOL)

The bad news is that my pH has not dropped all day. I started off measuring pH, KH and GH.

pH = 7.4 (or 7.6)
KH = 4
GH = ummm, this is embarrassing, > 20

It turns out I've been overdosing on the GH booster, using TBSP, not TSP. Oops. 50% change coming up on Saturday.

I've been measuring pH hourly, and it has been locked at 7.4. At 10:30 I bumped the bubble counter to 155bpm. Yes, bpm, not drops per second, a metronome app is awesome for this! At noon I reduced the surface agitation, one of the spray bars got knocked askew when I hooked things up. At 2:45 I set the back pressure (not the bypass) to 0 and noticed a water had completed filled the line after the check valve. I turn the bubble ways up. It didn't move. I flicked it with my finger and the CO2 started pushing the water up. Set the bubble counter to 117bpm, just loving the useless precision.

At 4pm and 5pm, pH was still 7.4. I wondering where all this CO2 is going so I used soapy water on the exit of the bubble counter and the in and out of the check valve. No soap bubbles.

At this point I'm baffled. I'll crank the CO2 tomorrow and watch the fish all day long.

Oh, here's a vide of first gas, so you can see that with the bubble counter full on I'm getting CO2 into the housing.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

@NotThePainter your probably think I am crazy, but, 155 bpm is 2.58 bps. Your tank is 75g, my tank is 75g. I don't use a bubble counter as it was pretty much a steady stream of bubbles (think 6-8 bps). Now, I would think at your current rate you would get some drop of pH over a 8 hour period.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

For @ReeferRusso - my hot mess under the tank


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

@NotThePainter - quick video of my Cerges in action. Regulator set at 20psi line pressure to the flow meter. Out of the flow meter, the line pressure is slightly greater than the water pressure within the Cerges reactor (so, not much). Being 5:30pm the reactor has been running since 10am this morning - you can see there is not a big bubble of CO2 at the top of the reactor. You can see little CO2 bubbles swirling around in the reactor.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

NotThePainter said:


> The 5PM update.
> 
> There is a minor leak at the shaft of the gate valve. I tried tightening things but I was unwilling to add any more force. The good news is that it leaks about 2-3 drops a minute when it is fully closed but I don't need it mostly open. I opened it just enough to get some flow through the reactor and it is only leaking a drop or so every 15 minutes. That's enough to land in a tray. (And unlike @ReeferRusso, I have room for a tray, LOL)
> 
> ...


I do not have any leaks and therefore no need for extra room for a "leak tray"! Boom! Lol


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Immortal1 said:


> For @ReeferRusso - my hot mess under the tank
> View attachment 1025264


That's not so bad. 

What is the material on the floor of your stand? It looks like aluminum or possibly "500 mph" aluminum duct tape. Care to share?


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

As @Immortal1 mentioned; one would think you'd see some drop, even .01, over 8 hours with such a low BPS. Maybe not though as the input of CO2 may be so low that it is offgassing and being depleted before it can impact pH. Depending on lighting and uptake from plants, though, I would think you're going to have to bump your BPS up significantly to see a drop in pH of 1.0 - 1.3 . I do not know my BPS but do know I'm running about 57 sccm on my 90g. It takes about 1.25 hours to drop my pH by 1.2 . This is before lights on.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

ReeferRusso said:


> That's not so bad.
> 
> What is the material on the floor of your stand? It looks like aluminum or possibly "500 mph" aluminum duct tape. Care to share?


Yes for both. If you look at the first pics in My Build Thread you can see how I set up a floor drain for the bottom of my stand. The floor of the stand is a single sheet of aluminum that folds up the sides (about 1") in most cases. Then all the seams were covered in a few layers of aluminum foil tape. I suppose I should mention that it has been tested on more than one occasion.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

ReeferRusso said:


> As @Immortal1 mentioned; one would think you'd see some drop, even .01, over 8 hours with such a low BPS. Maybe not though as the input of CO2 may be so low that it is offgassing and being depleted before it can impact pH. Depending on lighting and uptake from plants, though, I would think you're going to have to bump your BPS up significantly to see a drop in pH of 1.0 - 1.3 . I do not know my BPS but do know I'm running about 57 sccm on my 90g. It takes about 1.25 hours to drop my pH by 1.2 . This is before lights on.


According to @Bettatail I am running about 35 sccm on my CO2 setup (Porter B-125-6 flowmeter reading 8 @ 20psi)


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Immortal1 said:


> According to @Bettatail I am running about 35 sccm on my CO2 setup (Porter B-125-6 flowmeter reading 8 @ 20psi)


I run a Key Instruments flow meter reading 5 @40psi. I run it at 40 because I have another tank on a bubble counter with about 30 feet of CO2 line. However, I am contemplating lowering my sccm so as to have the CO2 constantly running throughout the entirety of the lighting period. Right now, it kick off more than I like.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> Yep, looks like a very busy place. And, also confirms what I suspected - a FX6 is too tall to fit in my location. You must have used a pretty good shoe horn to get that 20" reactor in there LOL.


That reminds me of the 30 gallon sump I designed and built for an old 75 gallon. Once it was ready I went to put it under the 75. It wouldn't fit through the doors! I had to carefully take a wooden cross brace off the stand and then lower it in!




Immortal1 said:


> @NotThePainter your probably think I am crazy, but, 155 bpm is 2.58 bps. Your tank is 75g, my tank is 75g. I don't use a bubble counter as it was pretty much a steady stream of bubbles (think 6-8 bps). Now, I would think at your current rate you would get some drop of pH over a 8 hour period.


I would imagine it is difficult to measure the rate of a steady stream. Today's plan is to start bumping up the bubble rate, watching carefully.



Immortal1 said:


> @NotThePainter - quick video of my Cerges in action. Regulator set at 20psi line pressure to the flow meter. Out of the flow meter, the line pressure is slightly greater than the water pressure within the Cerges reactor (so, not much). Being 5:30pm the reactor has been running since 10am this morning - you can see there is not a big bubble of CO2 at the top of the reactor. You can see little CO2 bubbles swirling around in the reactor.


My regulator is set to 60psi. That was actually a left over setting when I was testing on the workbench. What's a good pressure for one tank? 20psi? I'll eventually run 2 tanks, so I guess it needs to go higher. 

What's that tall yellow thing in your video, pressure gauge?



Immortal1 said:


> According to @Bettatail I am running about 35 sccm on my CO2 setup (Porter B-125-6 flowmeter reading 8 @ 20psi)


What's sccm?

Thats for all the help everybody. I feel the finish line is coming up!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

@NotThePainter - I run 2 tanks from 1 regulator using 20psi - works just fine.
The tall yellow thing is the Flow Meter - basically replaces the bubble counter. Much more accurate than counting bubbles. Look Here
SCCM is Standard Cubic Centimeters per Minute.
Some additional reading - Surface agitation & gaseous exchange in CO2 injected tanks
In my setup, I have the CO2 flow set high enough to almost kill the fish (in theory) but, that would be assuming the water surface was perfectly smooth. My filter output give some gaseous exchange. Then I have various air stones set up on smart plugs which are programmed to add more gaseous exchange at specific times. This allows me to raise the CO2 level in the tank fairly quickly (1.5 hours ish), but then taper it off at the top end with the air stones. 
Crazy enough - most of my system is on a large battery back up except the lights and the power to the CO2 solenoid. Power goes out and all the safety features keep working except CO2.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Thanks for the explanations and additional reading!


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> In my setup, I have the CO2 flow set high enough to almost kill the fish (in theory) but, that would be assuming the water surface was perfectly smooth.


It almost sounds like this was calculated, not measured. The "in theory" part intrigues me.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> It almost sounds like this was calculated, not measured. The "in theory" part intrigues me.


It took some time to get it dialed in, but I found the flow meter and high precision metering valve to be invaluable.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

And from that link you pasted:



> These high precision flowmeters open a whole new method injecting co2, because the exact injected co2 flow rate is known, so the total volume, then added PPM can be calculated.


That's very cool stuff.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Oh, I forgot to mention, it is possible I did see a small drop in pH. I'm using the API test kit which has high and low range reagents. The low chart reads 7.6, 7.2, 7.0, 6.8 etc... notice the gap between 7.6 ad 7.2. The high range chart reads 7.4, 7.8 etc..

For the first test of the morning it looked like it could be 7.6 on the low chart, but it also looked like it could be 7.4 on the high chart. So I've been calling it 7.4. But neither chart will really help until it gets to 7.2 and frankly, 7.2 and 7.0 are pretty close to each other.

Weeks ago I considered getting a pH meter but most of what I read was that they just sat in the drawer after a few weeks. Getting a cheap one seems to give potentially inaccurate readings and getting a good one means less cash for other tank things.

So I_ just may have seen_ a small drop. I also have a glass drop checker in the tank.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Success!

8:15am - pH=7.4. I closed the bypass valve some to make more flow through the housing. Increased the bubbles a lot, 5-6 per second?

9:15AM - ph=6.8, 6.6?

10:15 - pH=6.4

11:00 AM - pH=6.4 and when I put a piece of white paper behind the CO2 check it has a definite green tint!.

I'd say I'm done but I think I should lower my regulator's 2nd stage to 20 or 30psi. Right now I've accidentally set it to 60psi. I'm thinking that that's the reason my needle valve is so tight. It is really hard to get a value between 1 and 2 bubble per second. But.. why mess with something that is working, right?


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

with a reactor you usually don't need much working pressure, just enough to crack your check valve, which is likely a lot less than you'd need for a ceramic diffuser. i've found the working pressure range that works best is one that's high enough to make the needle valve not 'sloppy' but also not crazy sensitive within the range of your flow. for my 80g tank that's ~30psi. your mileage may vary, of course, but you might try out something closer to that than 60 so see how it feels.


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

also, fwiw - as someone who played the guessing game with co2 for way too long - a good ph monitor is probably one of the best bang for your buck aquarium investments. that and a par meter rental go a LONG way toward taking the guesswork out of two of the biggest domains that drive success or failure.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Totally agree on the pH controller as @EmotionalFescue mentioned. 

Some people use American Marine Pinpoint pH controllers and some use Milwaukee controllers. There are also other brands and models available at higher entry price points. The American Marine Pinpoint is about $200 and the Milwaukee MC122 is about $130. Basically, both are set it and forget it. I am presently using a Milwaukee MC122. I find great value in it especially when coupled with the flow meter I use. They truly do allow fine tuning your system and, even though my tanks are not set up the way I will be shooting for in the near future, I am a believer in doing things in the best possible way. Plus it has allowed me to learn different things about each device and the positive ways they impact our tanks. Additionally, the pH controllers do not necessarily go bad unless abused and will give a lifetime of accurate measurements. IMHO, an upfront investment with big long-term benefits is a win!


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

ReeferRusso said:


> Totally agree on the pH controller as @EmotionalFescue mentioned.
> 
> Some people use American Marine Pinpoint pH controllers and some use Milwaukee controllers. There are also other brands and models available at higher entry price points. The American Marine Pinpoint is about $200 and the Milwaukee MC122 is about $130. Basically, both are set it and forget it. I am presently using a Milwaukee MC122. I find great value in it especially when coupled with the flow meter I use. They truly do allow fine tuning your system and, even though my tanks are not set up the way I will be shooting for in the near future, I am a believer in doing things in the best possible way. Plus it has allowed me to learn different things about each device and the positive ways they impact our tanks. Additionally, the pH controllers do not necessarily go bad unless abused and will give a lifetime of accurate measurements. IMHO, an upfront investment with big long-term benefits is a win!


i'm also using the mc122. do you have recommendations on a flow meter? that's my next step in upping my co2 game. i think you have a 90g, right? this would be for a 68g with a ph drop of 1.4, so maybe in the same neighborhood as your flow range?


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

EmotionalFescue said:


> i'm also using the mc122. do you have recommendations on a flow meter? that's my next step in upping my co2 game. i think you have a 90g, right? this would be for a 68g with a ph drop of 1.4, so maybe in the same neighborhood as your flow range?


I don't think the flow meter I'm using is available anymore. There are a number of people using Porter flow meters but you have to be careful about which model to use as there are many different models. To add to the confusion, there are also different materials used for the balls that are in the meters. Anyways, I believe that @Immortal1 is running a Porter and, hopefully, we'll hear from him. Someone else who is incredibly knowledgeable and pointed me in the right direction is @Bettatail . He's great with all things CO2 related. Hopefully, he'll chime in too.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> Success!
> 
> 8:15am - pH=7.4. I closed the bypass valve some to make more flow through the housing. Increased the bubbles a lot, 5-6 per second?
> 
> ...


Quick note -you may find that you have to adjust your metering valve a bit higher as you lower your working pressure. 60psi has more actual CO2 in it that 20psi. Again, this is were the value of a flow meter comes in.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

ReeferRusso said:


> I don't think the flow meter I'm using is available anymore. There are a number of people using Porter flow meters but you have to be careful about which model to use as there are many different models. To add to the confusion, there are also different materials used for the balls that are in the meters. Anyways, I believe that @Immortal1 is running a Porter and, hopefully, we'll hear from him. Someone else who is incredibly knowledgeable and pointed me in the right direction is @Bettatail . He's great with all things CO2 related. Hopefully, he'll chime in too.


Bettatail is definitely the expert in co2, be it flow meters - metering valves, etc. 
Yes, I am running the Porter B-125-6 flow meter with the standard black ball. Not sure if Bettatail ever found a Porter flowmeter with a different colored ball.
Quick search on EBay shows a couple of the Porters, but only 1 in the -6 range. I think I linked Bettatails thread on flow meters a few posts ago. He has several different models listed that will work.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

pH did drop to 6.2 by 3:30PM. Without knowing my exact starting pH this is getting into scary territory. But, the fish are fine. The drop checker never went into the yellow. I even turned the bubbles and psi down, for tomorrow, and off at 5:30ish. At 6:30 the check was still green, but yeah, I know it has about a 2 hour delay.

The pH controller is interesting, but that and a flow checker are not in the budget right now. But... I do think the 40 Breeder might be stocked with difficult plants, so yeah, that might happen.

So I have to do this all over again tomorrow, since I've touched the needle valve and the psi. But I'm happy as a clam here, nailed it in the green on the 2nd day. I'll claim both luck and support from all of you. Thanks!

So, next issue, how do I get rid of all these unsightly bubbles?






LOL, sorry, just had to set up the joke. By 4:30 the tank was pearling in lots of places. I hadn't seen that in years. Nice!


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

NotThePainter said:


> pH did drop to 6.2 by 3:30PM. Without knowing my exact starting pH this is getting into scary territory. But, the fish are fine. The drop checker never went into the yellow. I even turned the bubbles and psi down, for tomorrow, and off at 5:30ish. At 6:30 the check was still green, but yeah, I know it has about a 2 hour delay.
> 
> The pH controller is interesting, but that and a flow checker are not in the budget right now. But... I do think the 40 Breeder might be stocked with difficult plants, so yeah, that might happen.
> 
> ...


Whenever I get bubbles like that on my plants I bust out my WWII flamethrower and take care of it immediately!


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

9:30pm, about 4 hours after I turned the solenoid off, pH is still 6.4. I can still see some bubbles in the reactor, so the big bubble at the top hasn't dissipated. So I guess I just calibrate the "turn off" time also, right?


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

If you've got a big pocket at the end of the day, you might want to turn up the water flow through the reactor via the bypass or turn down the co2. Depends on whether or not you got enough co2 into the tank today. Turning up the water flow will get you more gas into the water, but that may not be what you are looking for. Turning down the co2 without adjusting the bypass won't get you less co2 in the water up to lights off, it will just stop the infusion sooner. You could adjust the co2 shutoff time, but I think that will be less precise than matching your co2 flow to your reactor water flow.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

EmotionalFescue said:


> If you've got a big pocket at the end of the day, you might want to turn up the water flow through the reactor via the bypass or turn down the co2. Depends on whether or not you got enough co2 into the tank today.


Ok, good. That confirms what I was thinking would happen. I will turn it up today, just did actually.

Now here's the weird part. I left a cup of tank water on the kitchen counter last night. 9 hours later it is at pH 6.8, not the 7.4 that I expected. The tank, which has not gotten CO2 for 13 hours, it at 6.6 or 6.4! I do have a spray bar that gives some surface agitation but the tank is _covered with standard glass tops_. I know this goes against the standard thought but fish jump and I'm not risking that. So my tank is not outgassing CO2 very well.

So I've got some tuning to do and I can see how a precision flow meter would be helpful.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Just ordered a Dwyer Rate-Master Model RMA-150-SSV on evil bay. New in box, $50.


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

ha! i just ordered a used Key 1G02 flowmeter. i find the variety of flow meters dizzying, but i think it'll work (it was on @Bettatail's list).


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

Regarding your co2 retention/gas exchange... Do you have a surface skimmer? I think that can have a big impact on offgassing. I wonder how much impact a glass lid could have... I suppose it could make a difference. You could always use a DIY screen top. Keep the fish in but not all the offgassed co2.

I have made a number of screen tops and can attest to their effectiveness at containing fish and making me want to scream while assembling them.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> Just ordered a Dwyer Rate-Master Model RMA-150-SSV on evil bay. New in box, $50.


Congrats on the flowmeter purchase, and getting a bit of pearling in the tank. As an FYI, once my system is done delivering CO2 I turn on the air stones to help add additional oxygen and burn off excess CO2. It does take a bit of time to get the ph to go back up again - takes a lot more than 1 hour. 
From what I have learned, glass lids don't seal tight enough to make a big difference with regards to CO2 off gassing


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Good news on you both getting flow meters!

And I, too, run air stones throughout the night on both my tanks.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I do not have a surface skimmer but I'm not seeing much film on the top. I am doing 50% weekly water changes. I can put one in. I have on that attaches to the intake of the canister but I'm not sure its a great one. If I recall it doesn't have much of a drop tube, but, this is the DIY section, so how much of a problem could that be, LOL?

Plus I have to find it.

The HomeKit power strips arrived yesterday so the CO2 just turned on a few minutes ago. pH in the tank looked to be about 7, which is probably a result of using less CO2 yesterday.

The back check valve has failed, water has made it up to about halfway towards the bubble counter. But new valves from McMasterr-Carr arrived yesterday. I expect those to not fail. I could use an airstone when the CO2 isn't running, that a good idea. But why do you need to off gas the CO2 at night anyways? It isn't bothering the fish. I do see how it makes it more complicated to get a good ramp up. But what if you just kept it constant? Maybe if you left it in the yellow zone you're really risking the fish, at night the plants aren't using it and if you pump it in at the same rate, you could get lethal levels.

I know, get a pH controller...


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I just bought a flow meter. 

LOL, yeah, another one. @Bettatail recommend a Matheson 7642-610 Flow Gauge on the 'bay so I got that. I'm 99% certain the Dwyer was returnable, if not, I'll put it on the 'bay or offer it up here.

Low CO2 today, my bumping it down yesterday was too aggressive. I'm not even seeing bubble in the housing but the CO2 checker is in the green and I'm getting pearling still.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> I just bought a flow meter.
> 
> LOL, yeah, another one. @Bettatail recommend a Matheson 7642-610 Flow Gauge on the 'bay so I got that. I'm 99% certain the Dwyer was returnable, if not, I'll put it on the 'bay or offer it up here.
> 
> Low CO2 today, my bumping it down yesterday was too aggressive. I'm not even seeing bubble in the housing but the CO2 checker is in the green and I'm getting pearling still.


Ah the fun of dialing in a CO2 system. I would love to say it took me only 2 days.... yea, no - much longer!
Good to read Bettatail helped you out on a flowmeter. The Matheson should work very nicely for you. Hopefully he gave you some pointers/advice on installation.
Knowing my system, 1/4 turn of metering valve makes a pretty big difference on how much CO2 goes into the reactor.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

Carbon Dioxide 610A (910) Glass 20 PSIG
co2 calibration data sheet at 20 psig


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Bettatail said:


> Carbon Dioxide 610A (910) Glass 20 PSIG
> co2 calibration data sheet at 20 psig


Seeing as 1 Standard Cubic Centimeter per minute (SCCM) is equal to ML per minute, that flow meter should work out well. 
FWIW, I am running between 35-40 ML/minute on my 75g tank.
Convert cubic centimeters per minute to milliliters per minute | flow conversion


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

Immortal1 said:


> Seeing as 1 Standard Cubic Centimeter per minute (SCCM) is equal to ML per minute, that flow meter should work out well.
> FWIW, I am running between 35-40 ML/minute on my 75g tank.
> Convert cubic centimeters per minute to milliliters per minute | flow conversion


Indeed, this flow meter will work well, 610 tube flow meter is very high precision. 

Now I regretted that I showed the ebay listing to OP, ...
I already have one with the 610 tube,


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Bettatail said:


> Now I regretted that I showed the ebay listing to OP, ...


LOL! But I'm glad you did.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> LOL! But I'm glad you did.


LOL - he is a nice guy! Just an FYI - at some point there was a discussion about the best place to put your metering valve when using a flow meter. Generally speaking, it seemed it was better to have your metering valve "after" the flow meter. This means your flow meter will be under "regulator pressure" (say 20psi) so what the flow meter is measuring is pressurized co2. 
When the metering valve is placed before the flow meter, the pressure in your flow meter is the same as the water pressure in your reactor (not very much). Also, the water pressure in your reactor tends to actually bounce around a bit which you can actually see on a flow meter of this precision when the metering valve is place before the flow meter.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> Just an FYI - at some point there was a discussion about the best place to put your metering valve when using a flow meter. Generally speaking, it seemed it was better to have your metering valve "after" the flow meter. This means your flow meter will be under "regulator pressure" (say 20psi) so what the flow meter is measuring is pressurized co2.


Uhhhh, what's a metering valve? The needle valve under the bubble counter? I have the CO2 Arts Pro Elite kit, (PRE-ORDER: EXPECTED TO SHIP MID-JANUARY 2021) Pro-Elite Series The Most Advanced Aquarium Dual Stage CO2 Regulator

So I take off the left most piece and attach that on the output of the flow meter? Why? The flowmeter has a dial already.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> Uhhhh, what's a metering valve? The needle valve under the bubble counter? I have the CO2 Arts Pro Elite kit, (PRE-ORDER: EXPECTED TO SHIP MID-JANUARY 2021) Pro-Elite Series The Most Advanced Aquarium Dual Stage CO2 Regulator
> 
> So I take off the left most piece and attach that on the output of the flow meter? Why? The flowmeter has a dial already.


Ah, OK. I guess I assume everyone has a CO2 setup "exactly" like mine (duh me).
In your setup, I would likely leave the CO2 regulator portion untouched. If you decide not to put liquid in the bubble counter thats your choice - wont make much difference.
I have not seen exactly what your flow meter looks like, but, if it has a needle valve (metering valve, dial, etc.) on it then all the better!
If possible, you will want to orient the flow meter with the dial at the top (output side). My Porter was initially set up the other way - dial at the bottom. Upon further inspection, if I loostened a specific fitting, the glass tube came out. So I flipped the tube around which put the dial at the top.


https://i.ytimg.com/vi/IVo24bKEHi8/maxresdefault.jpg


https://i.ytimg.com/vi/IVo24bKEHi8/maxresdefault.jpg


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

I'm not sure how precise the valves are on the Porter flow meters. However, @Bettatail posted the other day about placing the following valve on the outflow for a Key Instruments flow meter. I thought I bookmarked that particular post because it also had pictures of the rig he hooked it to but I cannot find that post now. Anyways, I believe the valve below allows for greater accuracy than the stock valves. 



https://www.alliedelec.com/product/smc-corporation/as2201f-01-06s/70070868/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&adpos=&scid=scplp70070868&sc_intid=70070868&gclid=CjwKCAiAu8SABhAxEiwAsodSZHWyxnAI-4NFaG9WH1C27dKfashZBVf8Zfy4KTNwoopghqIZJZYe0xoC5yAQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Aha! I found the post that I thought I lost but it was only lost in my brain. I attribute this to age or dain bramage or a combination of the two!

Here's the post...









Flow meters for our pressurized co2 system


Ph monitoring is ok, but what if there is difficulty to maintain the ph or Ph/Kh reading errors due to many factors? very slight change of Ph and Kh on the chart means a big difference of co2 concentration in the water. Counting bubbles is another co2 injection method require close observation...




www.plantedtank.net


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

ReeferRusso said:


> Aha! I found the post that I thought I lost but it was only lost in my brain. I attribute this to age or dain bramage or a combination of the two!
> 
> Here's the post...
> 
> ...


That's a thing of beauty. It might take awhile but I want mine attached like that!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> That's a thing of beauty. It might take awhile but I want mine attached like that!


Yes, Bettatail's setup in that pic is something you don't hide in the back of the cabinet 
Mine on the other hand is not as purty, but it is VERY precise.
More info, as always  Metering(needle) valves for our DIY CO2 system


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I was doing my water changes today so I had the tank down at 50% water level. It was a perfect time to demonstrate the affects of the bypass valve. You can see how much the housing cuts down on the flow. It cuts down some, but not a lot. 






In any case, it is certainly fun playing with the tuning!


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

One reason I did that test is that I'm finding that I need to have my bypass valve 90% closed to see any bubbles in the clear housing. This is, of course, silly, since I'm getting my CO2 drop checker in the green, who cares if I see bubbles, right?

But with the bypass valve closed, I am restricting my flow. I read somewhere that a planted tanks should have 5-10x water turnover per hour. I have no idea if that is true or not, but with a 75 gallon tank and I'm only doing 4.4x, so why slow it down more. (And just how are you supposed to get 10x anyhow, that's a lot of flow!)

But I was thinking about @ReeferRusso 's setup, with the FX4 just driving the Cerges. And last night on craigslist I found an old Eheim Ecco. I almost pulled the trigger on it but it looks like they were made about 7 years ago, I could be wrong, but worse, the Eheim Support site has pretty much every part Out Of Stock. Any modern canister filter is big and with all my valves and bend I can't fit anything big down there.

Then I found the Sunsun 603B. It is a cheap bucket canister filter but the power head is inline and external to the bucket! So you just dissemble it and use only the pump!

You can buy just the pump on the 'bay. Look for part number JP-450G. It's about $13. But for $32 you can buy the entire canister which comes with input, output and hoses and just take it apart.

So this has gotten my brain churning. I could ditch the lovingly created PVC creation and just drive the water filter housing with the pump and hoses. It would take up very little space and the real canister filter would have unimpeded flow.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

Immortal1 said:


> Yes, Bettatail's setup in that pic is something you don't hide in the back of the cabinet
> Mine on the other hand is not as purty, but it is VERY precise.
> More info, as always  Metering(needle) valves for our DIY CO2 system
> View attachment 1025366


The two valves setup is for ease of flow adjustment if the original valve not the super high precision metering valve.

and two valves setup works best if you open the original valve (on the flowmeter) all the way, then dial the second valve(****** 21 metering valve) to about max allowance co2 flow range on the flowmeter. Now you can come back to adjust the original valve, it will land where you want the floating ball stay exactly.
Either of the two valve not necessarily to be the high precision model as long as they both deal with slow flow. I use the SMC AS2000 model as a secondary valve, it deals with low flow but not a precision flow control valve, and can not be used alone as a needle valve.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

5X-10X turn over rate is for non planted small tank with heavy bio-load, but with a larger healthy planted tank with a sump, 2X turn over rate is good enough, because you can always add more bio media and filter in the sump...

disregard above, I thought you have a sump for the 75G


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I ordered the Sunsun 603b. I'll take it apart and use just the pump. I still need to find my skimmer, I can hook it up to that. I'll use a piece of matten foam as a prefilter so I shouldn't big junk in the housing. One reason I'm doing this is that I want better circulation in the tank. I'm not seeing a good circular flow. I can put the housing spray bar on the opposite side, pointing down. That should get a goo flow going. 

I could only find it on the 'bay. They said it should be here Feb 10th.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

The knob is on the top already!

I thinking I will not mount this on the CO2 regulator. It will look cool but also be difficult to adjust. I like where you mounted yours, on the door centerpiece. This doesn't have any brackets, I'm going to have to DIY something. Don't want to glue anything to it though, I have the black plastic ball so magnets might work, but i'd still have to glue the magnets to the flow meter. I do have some screws holding it together, so I guess I could take those out, fab a bracket, and replace the screws with longer ones. I don't want to introduce a leak, but it looks like they are only covers, not structural.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> The knob is on the top already!
> 
> I thinking I will not mount this on the CO2 regulator. It will look cool but also be difficult to adjust. I like where you mounted yours, on the door centerpiece. This doesn't have any brackets, I'm going to have to DIY something. Don't want to glue anything to it though, I have the black plastic ball so magnets might work, but i'd still have to glue the magnets to the flow meter. I do have some screws holding it together, so I guess I could take those out, fab a bracket, and replace the screws with longer ones. I don't want to introduce a leak, but it looks like they are only covers, not structural.


Very nice flow meter! And as you stated - you don't have to change anything  
The screws on the side simply hold on the cover so longer screws to a small bracket should not be an issue.
Somewhat surprises me that there is no screw holes on the back, but, the fitting on the back sometimes come with a threaded washer so that the flow meter can be panel mounted. Can you post a pic of the back?


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> Somewhat surprises me that there is no screw holes on the back, but, the fitting on the back sometimes come with a threaded washer so that the flow meter can be panel mounted. Can you post a pic of the back?


Nope, that's it. It's threaded. I can get something to fit over that and tighten down a thin nut.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

About as I thought. Remove the compression fitting, then find a nut to fit the hexagon threaded portion (these nuts were typically sheet metal type nuts). 
Just making a guess, a piece of sheet metal, shaped like angle iron, with 2 holes drilled in it at the spacing of the in/out portions of the flow meter should work nice. 
Ideas below. 2nd picture shows one of those sheet metal nuts.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Well that was a bust. My local Home Depot doesn't have the 1/8" NPT to barb connector.

Nor could I find the flat threaded washer, or any washer or nut for that matter for the mounting. I couldn't even get it to fit in the thread checker! I tried 7/16 coarse and fine, even tried the metrics. I tried 1/2" coarse, but I guess 1/2" fine does exist, at least not at Home Depot.

I'll try the good hardware store tomorrow. I'll also try to decipher the Matheson web site to find mechanical specs. I found them, but it didn't make sense to me. I think I have some non-Matheson hardware on this.


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

i'm always surprised at the diversity of fittings from one store to the other. i can rarely finish a project with a single store. my local ace hardware is the best for plumbing and airline fittings. way better selection than lowes or home depot.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

In total agreement about the lack of products anymore at HD and the disparity in products from one to another even in the same region. 

Ace Hardware generally carries a much better selection of fittings for plumbing and plumbing related things like CO2, hydraulics, etc. Ace has become the Radio Shack of hardware in recent times. Hopefully, they do not follow the same road that Radio Shack did. I still miss Radio Shack!


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I found the 1/8" NPT barbs at Ace. Yay! Sadly, I hit up 2 other stores looking for that strange threaded nut on the back. It doesn't seem to be any size anyone has seen! We have an industrial supply place in town, but their showroom is closed due to COVID.

So I'm building a mount out of wood. I could have finished it tonight but I don't like the idea of gluing it all together, I want to be able to disassemble it.










The top and bottom pieces are chiseled out so it sits snug. And yes, I need to shave the proud spot on the bottom. But I just don't want to glue it, so I stopped working on it, just need to think more.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Maybe threaded rods for the sides?

brass thread rods, lol. Then I’ll want to put it outside the stand

ooooh, make a steampunk look mount?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

LOL, I like the idea of a Steam Punk setup!


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

I vote for the Steam Punk theme too. Brass threaded rod with the Black Chrome Caps below. 









Black Chrome Plated Steel Acorn Nuts


Check out the deal on Black Chrome Plated Steel Acorn Nuts at Albany County Fasteners




www.albanycountyfasteners.com


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Here's a real dumb question. Which end is "in" and which end is "out?"


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> Here's a real dumb question. Which end is "in" and which end is "out?"


Bottom is "IN" - flow of CO2 lifts bubble up. Knob at top holds back the pressure and regulates the "flow" leaving the flowmeter out the top port.
Also, FYI - in looking at the chart you will probably have the ball adjusted somewhere between 28 and 35 (assuming regulator is set to 20psi)


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I just wrote off to Matheson asking for the spec on the threaded washer. From looking at http://www.mathesongas.com/sites/de...ctions-FM-1050-FM-1000-Rotameter-INT-0131.pdf it is part's 1 and 2, and the double asterisk says it is a PAL nut. 

So now I have a lead at least. Just need the thread spec.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> I just wrote off to Matheson asking for the spec on the threaded washer. From looking at http://www.mathesongas.com/sites/de...ctions-FM-1050-FM-1000-Rotameter-INT-0131.pdf it is part's 1 and 2, and the double asterisk says it is a PAL nut.
> 
> So now I have a lead at least. Just need the thread spec.


Thats a nice document you found. I do like the "cleaning procedure" . 
FYI, if you have cheap check valves and the tank water backs up into the flowmeter and the ball gets wet - you will have to "clean" the inside. Don't ask why I know this so well....


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> Thats a nice document you found. I do like the "cleaning procedure" .
> FYI, if you have cheap check valves and the tank water backs up into the flowmeter and the ball gets wet - you will have to "clean" the inside. Don't ask why I know this so well....


LOL. I have two "real" check valves from McMaster-Carr just waiting to go in.

Well, the SunSun 603B arrived. Cute little canister. I'll bet it would work well on a 10 gallon tank. I played around with the parts this evening, I just can't get it work if I disassemble it. It uses some weird threading on the connectors, my guess is metric, so I can't just use the pump and ball valve to be an inline power head. I'll look at it again some more. 

I can cut some of the hard plastic stuff and attach them to each other. But if I do that I'll wreck it for any future use. I can also but a $12 part from the 'bay. But if I'm doing that, I think I'd might as well but a whole new unit at $32 just to have all that tiny tiny plumbing sitting in a box to be used at some later date.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

NotThePainter said:


> I just wrote off to Matheson asking for the spec on the threaded washer.


And the email errored out. So I'll need to call them. Maybe tomorrow.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I woke up in the middle of the night and couldn't fall back asleep. So I thought about tanks and stuff! The plan is to hook up the SunSun, unmodified, to drive the existing reactor. That, at least, will let me know if the pump is up to it.

I'm also going to give up, for now, the steampunk rotameter. I just want to get it installed.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

NotThePainter said:


> I woke up in the middle of the night and couldn't fall back asleep. So I thought about tanks and stuff! The plan is to hook up the SunSun, unmodified, to drive the existing reactor. That, at least, will let me know if the pump is up to it.
> 
> I'm also going to give up, for now, the steampunk rotameter. I just want to get it installed.


I must admit I'm a little bummed we won't be seeing the moded flow meter. However, I must also admit I understand. 

It will be interesting to see if that 603B will work.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

So I'm not going to be able to use the Sunsun 603b either to drive my reactor or to use the body itself as a reactor.

To quote my own thread from a different post...


> I hooked up my Sunsun 603B on the workbench after work today. With an empty canister I was able to get 54gph through their intake and spray bar. Priming it, wow, if you thought an Eheim Classic was hard to prime, this might be worse. I didn't mind paying the $32 for since it came with hoses and everything. But since I can't use it without the canister I think this is just going on the junk pile.


It isn't powerful enough to drive my reactor. I'm certain I need more GPH than I'm getting now. And I don't want to close my bypass valve anymore since I want the increased flow for filtration.

I have two options I can think of. I might be able to get a free Eheim Classic, my wife is about to throw hers out the window because it is so nasty to start. That would fit well under my stand. And I'd only have to prime it once, right? I would need to put a coarse foam over the intake so it wouldn't collect junk, that way I'd never have to service it.

Or I can buy a powerhead and some PVC and tubing and build the intake and and spray bar. The Sunsun stuff is just too tiny.

Or I buy an Oase with the easy to service pre-filter but that's a LOT of money and it is also huge.

Need to do some thinking...


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

Not sure how many GPH you need for your reactor, but an Eheim universal return pump might be a good solution. They can be used in-line and are bullet-proof. The 1250 is rated at 320GPH. I feel like that would be in the right zone for your needs. They're just a hair over $100.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

EmotionalFescue said:


> Not sure how many GPH you need for your reactor, but an Eheim universal return pump might be a good solution. They can be used in-line and are bullet-proof. The 1250 is rated at 320GPH. I feel like that would be in the right zone for your needs. They're just a hair over $100.


Eheim is great stuff, but pricey. The EcoPlus 264 can be used inline and is only $35. Any of these pumps would mean fabbing my own intake and spray bar. Of course, if I used my wife's Classic I'd have to do the same or use that ugly green Eheim stuff.

As for how many GPH? That's the real question isn't it? The Eheim Pro3 3075 is rated at 330gph. Now we all know that those are lies but we can probably assume the all lie by about the same amount. So a 300-ish gph pump would surely be acceptable. I could probably get by with less since I don't have to push through media with a bare pump.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

I had a feeling that little Sunsun filter was not going to do the trick for you. 

You probably want to go with a higher rated pump and be able to dial if back if needed. As I believe you know, I run a dedicated FX4 with no filtration other than the stock sponges, some carbon in one of the baskets and pot scrubbers in the other basket. The FX4 pump is rated at 700gph (less for media and head pressure) and I am running a 4.5" x 20" reactor. In case I needed it, I put a tuning valve on the return but have never had to run it at anything but wide open. 

As @EmotionalFescue has mentioned and you already know, Eheim pumps are bullet proof. However, there are many much less costly alternatives but I cannot speak to their reliability over time. I will say, though, that I know a number of people who run Jebao controllable pumps and none of them have had any trouble going back several years. Nice thing about these is that you can adjust these and set them up for feed time(s). I think, for 52 clams, this one might be the ticket. 









Amazon.com : Jebao DCP Sine Wave Water Return Pump (DCP-2500), Black : Pet Supplies


Amazon.com : Jebao DCP Sine Wave Water Return Pump (DCP-2500), Black : Pet Supplies



www.amazon.com


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

ReeferRusso said:


> I had a feeling that little Sunsun filter was not going to do the trick for you.


See? I didn't disappoint you then. LOL.



ReeferRusso said:


> You probably want to go with a higher rated pump and be able to dial if back if needed.
> 
> ... that I know a number of people who run Jebao controllable pumps and none of them have had any trouble going back several years. Nice thing about these is that you can adjust these and set them up for feed time(s). I think, for 52 clams, this one might be the ticket.


That's a sweet pump. I read more about the EcoPlus units and they both seem to be noisy and failure prone.

I don think I do need some decent gph. I ran an experiment today. CO2 goes on ah 6:30AM. The main light goes on at 8:30 (but I manually put it on at 7:30 today so I could do some cleaning.) At 8:30 I completely closed the bypass valve. So this means my Cerges was getting the full flow of the Eheim's 330gph (minus losses due to media and crud). The pearling started around 1pm, not the usual 3 to 3:30pm. At 4:30 there were enough bubbles in the Cerges that some were making it up the central tube.

My interpretation of this is that I'm need a lot more flow. I need to double check tomorrow but I never see many bubbles at all until lunchtime. So the CO2 just pools at the top of the housing until it gets so much that it eventually gets pushed into the water column. So my CO2 ppm chart is a very slow rise, which is exactly wrong. Remember how my pH drop is still present in the morning? This is probably because the CO2 bubble is still there in the morning.

So I need flow and I'm pretty sure the free Eheim canister, at 102 gph, isn't going to cut it.

I'll get a more accurate view of the bubbles in the housing tomorrow, but I think what I said above is correct.

I need to find some intake/outflow hardware now. I found cheap stuff but it ships from Taiwan and won't be here for 6 weeks. I've found an affordable Marineland set but it is for 3/4" ID hose! So I've got some adapting to do to figure stuff out. No biggie, this is DIY land.


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

that makes sense, OP. if you're ending the day with a big gas pocket, you've pretty much got 24/7 co2 infusion and at a lower rate than you're looking for.

so where does this put you? you're still thinking a separate pump of some sort to run the reactor?


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

EmotionalFescue said:


> that makes sense, OP. if you're ending the day with a big gas pocket, you've pretty much got 24/7 co2 infusion and at a lower rate than you're looking for.
> 
> so where does this put you? you're still thinking a separate pump of some sort to run the reactor?


Yes, separate pump. I order the Jebao, a Marineland C-Series C-530 Canister Filter Intake/Outlet Tube Assembly (only $19, I couldn't build it for that) and 3/4" ID Python tubing, with shipping, was $27 at Big Al's. So yeah, I killed the budget on this, but this system will be able to handle a much larger tank.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

In the words of Elvis (No, not that Elvis. The other Elvis!) The Cerges needs this...


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

ReeferRusso said:


> In the words of Elvis (No, not that Elvis. The other Elvis!) The Cerges needs this...


OMG, you are as old as we are! We cast that to the big screen and turned it up to 11. Brings back memories, thanks!

But what's this "don't really need it?" 

I've built a system that handle a much bigger tank, so that means I NEED a much bigger tank.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

NotThePainter said:


> OMG, you are as old as we are! We cast that to the big screen and turned it up to 11. Brings back memories, thanks!
> 
> But what's this "don't really need it?"
> 
> I've built a system that handle a much bigger tank, so that means I NEED a much bigger tank.


Well, um, I only know about that song because I saw it posted in a blog. The blog is written by a kid who has a roomful of trophies for 12th place out of 13 competitors, who thinks he's special and cannot hold a regular face-to-face conversation to save his life. I also had Fortran and Cobol in high school. 

Oh, wait, did I give away my age again? Let's just say that I'm enough to know better but young enough to do it anyway!


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Here's a "time-lapse" of how my reactor collects bubbles during the day.






My take is that I need to get rid of the surface scum and increase the flow. I am not getting CO2 bubbles into the tank, so that's good. But I'm not getting pearling in the morning.


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

honestly, this doesn't look too bad at all. you're definitely getting a gas pocket throughout the day and the increased splashing through that pocket is giving you the increased bubbles, but it dissipates after your co2 turns off. i was expecting worse.

more flow will help, for sure... it seems like your stand pipe might be cut just a bit high though? if you get much more flow in there, you'll probably start losing bubbles up the pipe with some regularity. what i do to combat this is to not use pipe at all. i run flexible tubing down to the bottom 'corner' of the reactor opposite the 'splash zone'. it depends on the housing, but usually a standard diameter tubing will fit snugly inside the output port in the lid. just one way to deal with it.

you did say this was the critique my cerges thread, right?!

ha - seriously though, you seem 90% of the way there.

regarding your surface scum... getting rid of that may allow you to push your co2 harder without bothering your fish, but you do have good agitation already, so i don't know how much this is holding you back at the moment. my guess is not too much. looks like you probably have pretty good gas exchange with that spraybar.


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

oh, one more thing... once i actually started monitoring my ph throughout the day i, was shocked by how early i needed to start in with the co2 to hit my target by lights on. as in, hours earlier than i thought.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Video was a nice composite. Pretty sure my setup has more small bubbles bouncing around towards the end of the cycle. 
I did not really notice a bubble at the top of the reactor in the video.
Agreed, plenty of surface agitation


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Thank you both! I don't see a bubble at the top of the housing also but it has to be there, just not very large, it must be hidden by the threads. The bubble pattern was much worse when I had the bypass valve cracked open. I had closed it down more to increase the overall flow. The Jabo pump is supposed to arrive today, the rest of the parts, sadly not until Monday.

One advantage of smart outlets is that I adjusted the start time of the CO2 from the sofa!

I originally had the standpipe too close then cut it too much. Oops. Serving the housing is a major operation now so I'm just going to live with any bubbles that escape I guess.

I like the idea of flexible tubing as the standpipe.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

NotThePainter said:


> Thank you both! I don't see a bubble at the top of the housing also but it has to be there, just not very large, it must be hidden by the threads. The bubble pattern was much worse when I had the bypass valve cracked open. I had closed it down more to increase the overall flow. The Jabo pump is supposed to arrive today, the rest of the parts, sadly not until Monday.
> 
> One advantage of smart outlets is that I adjusted the start time of the CO2 from the sofa!
> 
> ...


Like you and @Immortal1 , I did not see any CO2 build up in the top of the filter housing. It would be great to know if there is actually a build up in your housing. I will say that I know I do not get any CO2 build up, at all, in my housing. How I know is; 1.) I sporadically push the pressure release valve at the top of my housing and there is never anything but water that comes out and, 2.) My FX4 shuts off every 12 hours. Once at 10:30am and once at 10:30pm. I have my CO2 set to shut off at 8:30 pm and there is never any bubbling that occurs going to the tank. 

It'll be nice to see the results once you put that new Jebao pump on your system and I'm looking forward to hearing your input.


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

i should clarify... 'definitely' was a strong word. i'm inferring there's a modest gas pocket in there - above the threads - based on the video and what i see in my own tanks. 

in one of my two tanks that are each about the same size, if i get down and shine a flashlight in my housing and look up from the bottom, i see a small pocket at the top of my housing throughout the day. it levels off pretty quickly and dissipates soon after the co2 shuts off. interestingly, in the other tank i don't see this. while there are multiple variables at play here i think one of the reasons is the different ways i'm injecting the gas between the two.










in one of them i'm injecting with part of an old in-line diffuser (without the ceramic disk). the check valve injector puts a steady stream of pretty small bubbles into the reactor inflow. and what i see kicking around in that reactor are indeed a bunch of small bubbles which break down and get absorbed without forming a pocket.

in the other tank i've just got a 1/8 barb at the co2 injection point, and the bubbles i see in that reactor are much much larger right from the time the gas kicks on. while i've got equilibrium (the gas pocket doesn't keep increasing), and i'm getting the drop i want, i also can't ever seem to stop fiddling with it, and now i'm curious... i've got another one of these lying around:










that's 1/2" npt and will fit right where my 1/8 barb+bushing are now. the next time i can, i might make the switch and try to see if there's a difference in the reactor. for the record, here's what it looks like now.









New video by lance couzens







photos.app.goo.gl





so, that was a tangent! 

tl;dr - i think OP has a modest gas pocket which probably isn't an issue unless he actually needs to get more co2 into the tank. i think he might, in which case more reactor flow will be needed.

i should really try to do some work now. (is february over yet?)


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

EmotionalFescue said:


> i should clarify... 'definitely' was a strong word. i'm inferring there's a modest gas pocket in there - above the threads - based on the video and what i see in my own tanks.
> 
> in one of my two tanks that are each about the same size, if i get down and shine a flashlight in my housing and look up from the bottom, i see a small pocket at the top of my housing throughout the day. it levels off pretty quickly and dissipates soon after the co2 shuts off. interestingly, in the other tank i don't see this. while there are multiple variables at play here i think one of the reasons is the different ways i'm injecting the gas between the two.
> 
> ...


Work shmirk... it's Friday!


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

Actually, it's worse... I forgot I had a dentist appointment!


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I know from my workbench testing that even when I have a huge air pocket that pressing the button just lets water squirt out, weird design on the Culligan housing I guess. I'm using the 1/8" barb to inject, so I'm getting the "bigger" bubbles. I had thought about using a ceramic diffuser but didn't want to service it, never thought about pulling the ceramic part out!

So the Jebao pump will give me more flow, but won't that just push bubbles up my stand pipe? I guess a smaller barb might work but anything smaller that 1/8" would surely be structurally weak and break at the slightest impact.










Man, that's going to be a tight fit. The plan is to get a 90 bend at HD tonight and then use a very short length of flexible hose. But what a place for tight tolerances. I'm not sure I can assemble it in place, might have to rotate it and position elsewhere.



ReeferRusso said:


> Work shmirk... it's Friday!


It's a COVID Friday the day before a three day weekend Friday. But, I do have things to do, like usual, lunch is over now.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

EmotionalFescue said:


> Actually, it's worse... I forgot I had a dentist appointment!


Ooof! Hope it goes well!


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

NotThePainter said:


> I know from my workbench testing that even when I have a huge air pocket that pressing the button just lets water squirt out, weird design on the Culligan housing I guess. I'm using the 1/8" barb to inject, so I'm getting the "bigger" bubbles. I had thought about using a ceramic diffuser but didn't want to service it, never thought about pulling the ceramic part out!
> 
> So the Jebao pump will give me more flow, but won't that just push bubbles up my stand pipe? I guess a smaller barb might work but anything smaller that 1/8" would surely be structurally weak and break at the slightest impact.
> 
> ...


Yeah, in that position, it is going to be a very tight fit but definitely doable. Nice thing, though, is if you have to relocate it there is plenty of throughput from that pump!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Don't know if this helps at all - this is my Cerges at full song, so to speak. CO2 will turn off in about 30 minutes. The bubble at the top will take maybe 30-60 minutes to disappear. Towards teh end of the day is the only time it makes this much noise.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Wow, that’s a lot of bubbles


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> Wow, that’s a lot of bubbles


Yep. But, near as I can tell those "big" bubbles don't get pushed down to the tube opening. They just bounce around from the incoming water until they dissolve.
Not saying this is perfect, but I am currently dropping pH 1.3 points. IMO, I should change my bypass valve to push a little more water thru the reactor but the stupid ball valve won't turn any more.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Immortal1 said:


> Yep. But, near as I can tell those "big" bubbles don't get pushed down to the tube opening. They just bounce around from the incoming water until they dissolve.
> Not saying this is perfect, but I am currently dropping pH 1.3 points. IMO, I should change my bypass valve to push a little more water thru the reactor but the stupid ball valve won't turn any more.


Oh no, the ol' stuck ball valve. Sounds like a valve cleaning/rebuild is in order. Fortunately, there is a video of taking a valve apart for your viewing pleasure! 

And when I saw "Cerges song" the following popped into my head. Not necessarily the best tune if you're looking to have a rockin' Friday night. However, it does go pretty well with a couple fingers of whiskey and four ice cubes if one wants a more mellow Friday night!


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I think the big bubbles are great. I wonder if I'll get them like that once I get all my pieces together. It is pretty noisy though, but not too bad.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

NotThePainter said:


> I think the big bubbles are great. I wonder if I'll get them like that once I get all my pieces together. It is pretty noisy though, but not too bad.


I had all my pieces together. Once. And then I forgot where I put them.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> I think the big bubbles are great. I wonder if I'll get them like that once I get all my pieces together. It is pretty noisy though, but not too bad.


Pretty noisy - yes. But, that is with the phone right next to the reactor. If I shut the cabinet door and sit 4' away I have to turn the TV off and listen in order to hear it. So, really not as loud as it would seem.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

ReeferRusso said:


> However, there are many much less costly alternatives but I cannot speak to their reliability over time. I will say, though, that I know a number of people who run Jebao controllable pumps and none of them have had any trouble going back several years. Nice thing about these is that you can adjust these and set them up for feed time(s). I think, for 52 clams, this one might be the ticket.


I'm looking at it today and I'm not sure I can hook it up. It comes with a single 1" hose barb and a single 3/4" hose barb. There are also two 1" smooth connectors but it isn't clear I can use PVC cement on that. I really need a second 3/4" barb, or even better, a 1/2" or 5/8" hose barb.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

NotThePainter said:


> I'm looking at it today and I'm not sure I can hook it up. It comes with a single 1" hose barb and a single 3/4" hose barb. There are also two 1" smooth connectors but it isn't clear I can use PVC cement on that. I really need a second 3/4" barb, or even better, a 1/2" or 5/8" hose barb.


3/4" pvc fits exactly into the smooth connector. But it certainly won't be water tight. How can I see if PVC solvent works on their adaptor?


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

NotThePainter said:


> 3/4" pvc fits exactly into the smooth connector. But it certainly won't be water tight. How can I see if PVC solvent works on their adaptor?


Any regular PVC cement will work. Most people use Oatey but I prefer Welton. It's also ok if you want to use primer but it's not necessary.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Welton should say Weldon... damn autocorrect.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

That's awesome. I just read "no primer" earlier today somewhere. I will pick up a new can though, my old can is getting kind of long in the tooth.

And here's today's shocker. I'm thinking of completely replacing my reactor! Oh, I'll keep the housing, that's fine, but with the controllable pump I won't need a bypass or back-pressure valve. I guess could keep the back pressure valve in case I need to replace the pump someday.

But why you ask?

Space. This can be made really tiny. It will free up a ton of space down below. I can probably then put the CO2 bottle in front of the reactor, using a the rotameter for control of course. This will give me plenty of room for say, auto dosing ferts...


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> That's awesome. I just read "no primer" earlier today somewhere. I will pick up a new can though, my old can is getting kind of long in the tooth.
> 
> And here's today's shocker. I'm thinking of completely replacing my reactor! Oh, I'll keep the housing, that's fine, but with the controllable pump I won't need a bypass or back-pressure valve. I guess could keep the back pressure valve in case I need to replace the pump someday.
> 
> ...


Not remembering exactly how much vertical cabinet space you have, but I could almost picture the Jebao pump mounted to the top of the reactor and basically hard lined into the reactor. But, knowing impeller pumps as I do, you eventually would have to clean the impeller so you will have to account for that.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> Not remembering exactly how much vertical cabinet space you have, but I could almost picture the Jebao pump mounted to the top of the reactor and basically hard lined into the reactor. But, knowing impeller pumps as I do, you eventually would have to clean the impeller so you will have to account for that.


Thanks for the reminder about the impeller, I had forgotten that! I had hoped to do something like this:










Water comes in from the left side of the tank straight into the pump, exits the pump going straight up into tee with the CO2 barb and then an elbow into the housing, which has been flipped around in this installation. Water comes out the left end side directly into an elbow exiting the back of the tank, where it enters the tank on the right side.

But the housing is too far to the right to do that. I guess I can glue in another vertical support and move it over, but I'll have to be careful about drilling the holes for the new housing mounting screws. (I'm just weirded out about drilling under a full tank, I guess I should get over that. mmmm, I can reuse the left hole and drill the new left hole in the new wood and measure so very carefully...

The other way is to mount on the left side of the housing, right here:










But now the return path is convoluted. I can certainly go up and over the housing, but still, lots of bends in this approach. The pump is super powerful but why put extra bends in?

I also need to think about where to put the unions so I can service the impeller, I'm so glad you mentioned that.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Curious, are you going to run a separate pair of lines for the reactor? I.e. - a pair of lines for the reactor and a pair of lines for the canister filter?


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> Curious, are you going to run a separate pair of lines for the reactor? I.e. - a pair of lines for the reactor and a pair of lines for the canister filter?


Yes. Both will draw from the left hand side of the tank. The filter exits in a spray bar on the left hand side. The reactor is planned to exit on the right side, sort of pointing downwards, to really help get a good circular rotation going.

And the funny thing is, I'm using the 16/22mm line on the filter but 3/4"-1" line for the reactor! I found a cheap set of Marineland intake/outflow hardware, $20 new, but it using the big lines. Big Als sells "Python Pro" hose which is in that size. I didn't even know Python had a "bigger" line!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

I do like the Python Pro hose - much more flexible than the PVC hose you get at Menards. 
the Marineland parts sound like an ideal solution for $20.
Trying to think thru pump placement. 
Fluval FX4 has the pump at the bottom (air bubbles float up). This pump placement should give you a better chance at priming the system initially. 
Most canister filters have the pump at the top - but they also come with a prime button because of that feature.
Starting to like your picture with the pump below the reactor. Having a valve on the output side of the reactor is not a bad idea - give you a chance to adjust things.
I say that because - too fast of flow thru the reactor will push bubbles down and out thru the tube. Too slow of flow thru the reactor and you get a CO2 bubble.
As you "tune" you system, maybe you want / need more CO2. This could require more flow to help dissolve the CO2 bubble at the top of the reactor. 
Last picture looks better than the one before it regarding pump placement.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> As you "tune" you system, maybe you want / need more CO2. This could require more flow to help dissolve the CO2 bubble at the top of the reactor.


Ahhhh... but I have the fancy shmancy controllable pump. I can set it's speed! So I can turn it fast or slower. That' why I don't think I need the valves.





Immortal1 said:


> Last picture looks better than the one before it regarding pump placement.


I'm liking the first one as long as I move the housing to the left 3-6 inches. We have almost no bends and the pump is tucked away.

And curiously, the impeller doesn't seem serviceable! This is wild. It isn't made up of 6 vanes, rather, it has a spiral on it. But I've see, other, similar ones disassembled. I'd read the manual but its worthless. I'm a bit freaked about prying something open that shouldn't be opened.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> Ahhhh... but I have the fancy shmancy controllable pump. I can set it's speed! So I can turn it fast or slower. That' why I don't think I need the valves.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah yes - should have remembered you went all fancy with the variable speed pump. No valves needed!
And with that style of pump, it very well may be non-serviceable - which would be nice!


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Looking like a winner with that last placement. If you're going to hard plumb the whole system, I would definitely throw a couple of shut off valves and unions in so you can remove the pump for servicing/cleaning. Another shut off valve and union after the housing too for a total of three so you can remove the housing separately too. And if you want to get real fancy (and expensive) go with true union ball valves. 

It's getting exciting now!


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Ok, I guess I'm going with the second placement, with the return running along the top of the housing. This has the advantage that I don't have to relocate the housing. I remember that the screws were really hard to get into the wood. (I didn't want to drill huge pilot holes so it would have good grip.) Running the return across the top still has the same space advantages as running the intake along the bottom, but even better, the housing is now pushed far to the right freeing up some space.











a) hose barb that came with the pump
b) 3/4" pvc (1st piece glued to the slip joint that came with the pump)
c) union just in case I ever need to replace the pump
d) tee to inject the CO2
e) slip joint elbow
f) slip joint to male 3/4" NPT thread to screw into the housing
g) slip joint-threaded elbow, might have to make this from two parts, points out the back of the tank
h) unlabeled on the diagram, threaded hose barb
I can't see a need for a union at the top, if any of that fails or needs to be replaced I can just replace the whole section, there aren't any expensive parts there.

But, I'm wondering about a ball valve. I never got the purge valve on the housing to work. But maybe if I put a ball valve on the return I could close it all the way, and maybe the purge will work. I don't need a back pressure valve since I'm separate from the canister and my pump is variable rate.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

I like where this is headed! Honestly, I would not worry about purging out an air pocket - that will take care of itself. As you fill the system for the first time, I could see getting a large air bubble. But, seeing as you have the Cerges head securely mounted, what I would suggest is to unscrew the clear housing (don't try to remove it completely), then using a small hose and a funnel fill up the clear housing with as much water as you can. Then re-attach the housing to the head. Then fill your intake hose with water. As you fill it, the water pressure should work thru the pump, into the cerges and back out basically filling the return hose. Finish setup and turn on the power


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

And include a video. We like videos!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Oddly enough - a portion of this thread got me thinking about something. Have I ever cleaned my Jebao DCQ-6000 that I use to move water from the storage drum to the aquarium? No. Fortunately is was cleaner than expected inside. During the cleaning process, I realized the head assembly of the pump can be installed in 3 different directions. Which made me think, this could be useful for @NotThePainter so, enjoy some pics...

































And while I am at it - one of my crazy ideas that worked out well  
Attach PVC to supplied barb... hmmmmm, a little heat from a heat gun should work nicely. Once formed, a little PVC glue should finish the job.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Immortal1 said:


> Oddly enough - a portion of this thread got me thinking about something. Have I ever cleaned my Jebao DCQ-6000 that I use to move water from the storage drum to the aquarium? No. Fortunately is was cleaner than expected inside. During the cleaning process, I realized the head assembly of the pump can be installed in 3 different directions. Which made me think, this could be useful for @NotThePainter so, enjoy some pics...
> View attachment 1026130
> 
> View attachment 1026131
> ...


Like you, I have heated PVC to put pieces together and also take them apart. I have noticed, though, that the PVC can have a tendency to become a bit brittle. I am presuming you run your pump from inside the storage drum as it would surprise me a little if you trusted that pump connection to be water tight and remain that way over time. Especially with the vibration caused by the pump when it's running. 

I also like the red color on the pump. I wonder if they were trying to imitate a Royal Exclusiv Red Dragon pump at a fraction of the cost. Speaking of costly pumps, are you familiar with Abyzz pumps? Considered by many on the reefing side to be the gold standard. I've never owned one but know several people that run them. Nothing but great things to say about them. Also included in the costly pump (powerhead) are the Panta Rhei water movers. They're price tag will make one's eyes bulge.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

ReeferRusso said:


> Like you, I have heated PVC to put pieces together and also take them apart. I have noticed, though, that the PVC can have a tendency to become a bit brittle. I am presuming you run your pump from inside the storage drum as it would surprise me a little if you trusted that pump connection to be water tight and remain that way over time. Especially with the vibration caused by the pump when it's running.
> 
> I also like the red color on the pump. I wonder if they were trying to imitate a Royal Exclusiv Red Dragon pump at a fraction of the cost. Speaking of costly pumps, are you familiar with Abyzz pumps? Considered by many on the reefing side to be the gold standard. I've never owned one but know several people that run them. Nothing but great things to say about them. Also included in the costly pump (powerhead) are the Panta Rhei water movers. They're price tag will make one's eyes bulge.


Yes, the pump sits in the storage drum with the PVC pipe being used as a riser to the remainder of the plumbing. As the pump really only runs for a few hours each weekend I can't make any claims to the longevity of the connection with constant use.
I will have to admit, I am not familiar with higher end pumps. Never involved in the reef side of the hobby.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I had hoped to hook it all up today but I never got started and I had some baking projects to do, as well as a video to make on the surface skimmer. And I'd really rather start this on a Saturday so I have a second day to make any corrections. Tomorrow is a work day for me. So that's the update.

Nice shots of the pump! It looks like it was held on with screws. I didn't see an obvious way to open mine up.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> I had hoped to hook it all up today but I never got started and I had some baking projects to do, as well as a video to make on the surface skimmer. And I'd really rather start this on a Saturday so I have a second day to make any corrections. Tomorrow is a work day for me. So that's the update.
> 
> Nice shots of the pump! It looks like it was held on with screws. I didn't see an obvious way to open mine up.


(4) phillip head screws from the motor side - pretty easy on my pump.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Reactor 2 is finished!










Removal of the old reactor was pretty easy, just disconnect tubes in what seemed like the proper order and drain them into shallow buckets. I only spilled about a cup, most of which goes right through the floor of our 1860s house into the basement.

Disassembly was impossible though! I thought I could just undo the union and turn the two threaded connectors. Nope, they both loop in front of the housing and couldn't even make a full turn. I had to cut it off, which is a shame, I had hoped to re-use that someday.

It glued up very quickly. The only really thinking part was trying to decide if I wanted to have the pump sit on the floor or hang in space. Hanging in space seemed easier plus it let me support it with something soft if it proved to be noisy. But that also just would look wrong. So I cut the pipe to fit and got it right on the first try.

Then came the hard part. I had never test fit the 1" OD - 3/4" ID python hose to the Marineland intake and outflow hardware. I almost gave up. I was using hot water but I still couldn't get them on. My wife suggest cutting a slant in the hose and that did the trick. I still wasn't able to get enough onto the barb so I used hose clamps on all my connections except one, and I'll clamp that up soon.

I didn't want to open the housing to fill it. My plan was to pour tank water, with a funnel, down through the output pipe but that idea was nixed since that connection was so difficult. I didn't want to have to make it hunched over the tank.

So I used a small power head and just pumped water in the intake. It worked like a charm!

I still had about 2-3 inches of air in the housing, you can see that in the photo and in the video, but this is rapidly disappearing.






I expect this will be silent tomorrow. Next I need to start playing with the pump speeds, but maximum seems to be fine, all the air bubbles are showing me great flow though the tank.

Oh, I need to head out and get some of the adhesive wire clips. The CO2 solenoid and powerhead line now run across the front. I'll put them in a race over the top of the tank stand, there's a small grove there.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

I think I recall you saying the housing has a pressure relief valve on it but that maybe the valve does not work. Is that right?

Also, do you have a pic of the union you had to cut off that you want to reuse someday? 

Looks like a good amount of flow through that reactor!


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

ReeferRusso said:


> I think I recall you saying the housing has a pressure relief valve on it but that maybe the valve does not work. Is that right?


Yeah, the Culligan seems really nicely built except that I've been unable to press the pressure relief button and not get water out the top.




ReeferRusso said:


> Also, do you have a pic of the union you had to cut off that you want to reuse someday?
> 
> Looks like a good amount of flow through that reactor!


Oh, I wanted to re-use the entire reactor! I figured I could buy another Culligan and save it for when I had a more powerful filter. Or maybe sell it on facebook marketplace.

And yeah, great flow. Loving the pump.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Nice looking Version 2! Looks like it fits very nicely in the cabinet.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> Nice looking Version 2! Looks like it fits very nicely in the cabinet.


Thanks. I have so much room! Auto-doser when I can figure out what I should be dosing. DIY seems fun but they aren't that expensive at the low end.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Are you running a check valve on the return line from the pump to the tank?


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

ReeferRusso said:


> Are you running a check valve on the return line from the pump to the tank?


No, just a check valve preventing water from going up the CO2 line. You can see it in the photo, a tiny white one that is just above the bubble counter. The bubble counter is empty but it seemed like a reasonable way to attach the CO2 line.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> No, just a check valve preventing water from going up the CO2 line. You can see it in the photo, a tiny white one that is just above the bubble counter. The bubble counter is empty but it seemed like a reasonable way to attach the CO2 line.


Something I would recommend (or maybe I did already?) is 2 check valves on the CO2 line. 
Most check valves don't last very long and the one thing you don't want to do is take your flow meter apart and clean out the water because a check valve failed.
If I see any water between my 2 check valves I know it's time to change them.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

NotThePainter said:


> No, just a check valve preventing water from going up the CO2 line. You can see it in the photo, a tiny white one that is just above the bubble counter. The bubble counter is empty but it seemed like a reasonable way to attach the CO2 line.


Have you tried releasing the pressure in the housing without the system running? When I do water changes, I sometimes get some air in my housing. I get rid of it, after refilling everything, running the filters for a few minutes, shut them off and then pushing the pressure relief valve button on the housing. The water coming from the return line fills the housing and pushes any air out.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> Most check valves don't last very long and the one thing you don't want to do is take your flow meter apart and clean out the water because a check valve failed.


I bought what I hoped would be quality ones from McMaster-Carr, but then I realized, why not put a second one in. It isn't that much work. So I did.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

ReeferRusso said:


> Have you tried releasing the pressure in the housing without the system running? When I do water changes, I sometimes get some air in my housing. I get rid of it, after refilling everything, running the filters for a few minutes, shut them off and then pushing the pressure relief valve button on the housing. The water coming from the return line fills the housing and pushes any air out.


No, I should try that next time it gets emptied, which will be never. I had only tried on the bench, or on the tank, but only running. Thanks for the tip!


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I have 2 issues, videos for both, so it will be two postings.

First, all the air clear out from the top of the housing overnight. This is good. But I'm still getting air out of the outflow but worse, I'm getting a periodic bloop sound as the CO2 enters the water pipe. My guess is that the check valves are opening and closing, but that's only a guess. You can hear it in this video.






This is super annoying, I sit right next to the tank when I work. I did dial back the pump's output and it might have helped, but the pump can only go to about 50%, which is annoying, I had figure 0% would be an option. I think the pump is so powerful that air makes it up the standpipe, which is why it enters the tank, but I can't understand the mechanism for the bloops. I can't even reinstall the old check valve since I threw it away.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

The next problem is perplexing. My rota meter with its fancy 15 turns of adjustment, seems to not adjust. I can turn it off, but the knob doesn't seem to do anything otherwise.






@Bettatail I'd love to hear your opinion on this.

I have turn off the CO2 solenoid for now. I can't guarantee that I didn't bump the needle valve on the CO2 regulator so I'd rather be sitting next to the fish, tomorrow, at work, when I turn the CO2 back on.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> The next problem is perplexing. My rota meter with its fancy 15 turns of adjustment, seems to not adjust. I can turn it off, but the knob doesn't seem to do anything otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, I have an idea on the flowmeter issue. First, what pressure are you running on your regulator? Being as your system is a little different than my (very strong pump running the reactor), I am wondering if the pressure within the reactor is a little higher than mine. If you regulator is a 10psi, I would move it to 20psi. If you are at 20psi, try 30psi and then see if your flow meter adjustment knob works better.

Still trying to wrap my head around the blur sound.

Edit, the metering valve on the regulator - tell me a little bit on how you have that adjusted...


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

30 psi!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> 30 psi!


Ok, 30psi is more than enough. I use 20psi.
Again, tell me about how you have your metering valve on the regulator adjusted...


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> Ok, 30psi is more than enough. I use 20psi.
> Again, tell me about how you have your metering valve on the regulator adjusted...


I was getting about 5-6 bubbles per second, it was difficult to measure that precisely.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> I was getting about 5-6 bubbles per second, it was difficult to measure that precisely.


Ok, turn the metering valve on your regulator "out" - as in, more flow to the flowmeter.
When you opened the valve on the flowmeter, the big jump with the ball signified plenty of line pressure from the regulator. But, your flowmeter metering valve is not being allowed to do much because your Regulator metering valve is not giving the flow meter enough volume.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> Ok, turn the metering valve on your regulator "out" - as in, more flow to the flowmeter.
> When you opened the valve on the flowmeter, the big jump with the ball signified plenty of line pressure from the regulator. But, your flowmeter metering valve is not being allowed to do much because your Regulator metering valve is not giving the flow meter enough volume.


Cool, that makes sense. I'll do that tomorrow. Just sitting down to dinner soon here. Thanks for your help!


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

Check to see if it is the problem that immortal1 show you, if not, 
and 
if you can turn off the co2 flow by turning the precision needle valve shut, but not be able to adjust the flow rate with the needle valve open, then check leak on the system...


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> Ok, turn the metering valve on your regulator "out" - as in, more flow to the flowmeter.
> When you opened the valve on the flowmeter, the big jump with the ball signified plenty of line pressure from the regulator. But, your flowmeter metering valve is not being allowed to do much because your Regulator metering valve is not giving the flow meter enough volume.


That did the trick!

Of course now it is hard to get it below 40, but that's ok. And now the noise from the reactor is almost a constant gurgle. This is annoying. I guess the next step is to try and slow the pump down even more, that's the only thing I can think that has changed. I can test this, I guess, by putting a clamp over the output line to squeeze it. If that works I can tear down the system, ugh, and install a ball valve on the output. Oh man, I almost did that but went simple.

Oh, the only other thing that is different is that the CO2 injection site is in the elbow, not in the tee that goes to the elbow. I thought it was a good find when I picked that part out of the bin.

Thanks again for all the help everybody!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

CO2 injection point should not matter as long as it goes into the stream of water going into the reactor. Getting the reading to hold steady, say below 40, may take a combination of the 2 metering valves.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> CO2 injection point should not matter as long as it goes into the stream of water going into the reactor. Getting the reading to hold steady, say below 40, may take a combination of the 2 metering valves.


I didn't think so either, but it was something that was different...

I have 2 issues, I going to solve one, than the other, just to reduce the number of variables. The first issue is the gurgling sound. It was pretty nasty today and the amount of CO2 bubbles in the tank was unsightly. So I was thinking, why would the bubble make it out the standpipe, it has to be the pump's GPH. I didn't install a back pressure valve since the pump was adjustable, but it is 660 GPH (2,500 l/H) pump and it only goes down to 50% of that, so that's huge.

So I reached through the back of the tank and really squeeze the output hose. The gurgle disappeared almost instantly. So I'll install a back pressure valve this weekend.

I'm "wasting" a lot of CO2 now, so when I fix the gurgle I'll have a lot more CO2 in the water column. I need to be careful. I think I need to try and tune the rotameter/needle valve/ regulator system before this weekend. I want to ramp up the CO2 not hold funerals. The problem is that both the needle valve in the regulator and the rotameter are almost completely closed. And I turned down the PSI to about 25. So I don't have much more to adjust. We'll see what I can do I guess.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Curious @NotThePainter how your reactor journey is going.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Yeah, that makes two of us @NotThePainter !


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

It's so nice to be wanted!

I put the back pressure valve in yesterday. It was only a tiny PITA. First I had to break both siphons, which is easy but it wasn't. The 1" pipe carries a mean suction. So with my thumbs in both the holes I had my wife break both siphons again!

Then I cut:



















I then cut it even shorter because the bulbous part of the ball valve was right over the useless purge button.

Easy glue job back together.










I then let it set for a few hours for the solvent to dry and powered it up. No leaks!

But, it was not priming. I expected that so I put the powerhead on the input and gave it 30 seconds. It still didn't prime. So I just gave it 2 minutes more. I had my wife watching to make sure that much of the air was out of the housing.

It was running now, no leaks, with about 2 inches of air in the top of the housing. By morning that was gone. So I turned the CO2, low and did some other things. A few hours later I check the pH and it had dropped some so I boosted the CO2 again, with the rotameter and left it. I'll creep up on a good CO2 level tomorrow when I can sit by the tank all day.

So overall it was a success!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

@NotThePainter - Now that I got a better look at the top of your reactor, have you tried turning the handle on the top of the reactor to the off position and then push the purge button? I say this only because on my reactor, when I turn the handle to off mine automatically purges out some air.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Looking good!


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> @NotThePainter - Now that I got a better look at the top of your reactor, have you tried turning the handle on the top of the reactor to the off position and then push the purge button? I say this only because on my reactor, when I turn the handle to off mine automatically purges out some air.


No, I have not. The top is really hard to turn, you absolutely need the wrench and there's no way I could fit that in there.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> No, I have not. The top is really hard to turn, you absolutely need the wrench and there's no way I could fit that in there.


Ok, was just curious. The way yours is set up you will likely only need to use that feature once anyway.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> Ok, was just curious. The way yours is set up you will likely only need to use that feature once anyway.


It self purges in 3-6 hours so I'm not worried.


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## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Hopefully this is the last post here. :- ) I just need to dial this puppy in. But I have The Final Reactor installed. Oh no, did I jinx it?

On the workbench:










Installed:










The only gotcha was that the return line with the gate valve blocks the mounting screws for the housing! So I'm really glad I put unions on both sides. I did that so I could re-use the $30 gate valve in the future but I used the unions today. It was also really handy for gluing it up, I didn't have to worry about many of the right angles, they just get set with the unions.

I also learned that my next big tank, which could be many years away, will have some drain points in it. This thing is nasty to take apart live. I only needed to service the top. I can't imagine servicing the bottom. I looked into getting some quick disconnects but the feed and return hose is 1" and nothing was available off the shelf and building something was starting to go over $50 at McMaster-Carr, so I stopped. I just won't service it.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Fingers crossed you will now have all the hardware needed to get things dialed in. 
You will have to make a note to update this thread in 1 year ;-)


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