# Miracle Gro



## Enavas (Jul 2, 2012)

Do you guys wash your mircale gro before you put it in your tank or do you just dump it in there? This will be a new tank setup with nothing in it.


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## altiuscitius (Jul 17, 2012)

Most dont wash it from what I've read. Diana Walstad's book recommends just dumping it in and going from there. But you cant add fish right away due to the ammonia spike from fresh miracle gro. Some people say you should let the soil dry out completely first before adding it, as this lets some of the ammonia... I dont know, evaporate? It makes some of the ammonia dissapear somehow.

I washed mine though. Using the mineralized topsoil method. (I was reading so much nonstop about mts and natural planted tanks and got confused about which was which, and was a month into it before I realized I started with the wrong soil type.) I let it soak for a few days, scooped off the floaties, then let it dry out for a few days. I repeated this three times. Then I screened out the big chunks of wood. Mixed in some clay powder, wetted it with water from a dirty filter and mixed in a bunch of mulm from an established tank. Topped with fluorite black sand.

My results were fantastic. No issues with clouding, or the water being yellow, no ammonia spikes during the first weeks, no fungus on the soil cap, nothing ever floating up from the soil even if I move things and replant. My plants exploded to the point were 2 months ago I had 2 small bunches of hairgrass, 3 swords, and 2 bunchs of water wistera, and today I just had to cut and throw out huge handfulls of plant matter just so my fish have some room to swim.

I think I went overboard, but Im really happy with the results regardless.


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

i would STRONGLY reccommend that you do not use MGOPS but instead find the cheapest organic potting soil you can find. Then follow this step by step mineralization proccess:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=152027


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

ChadRamsey said:


> i would STRONGLY reccommend that you do not use MGOPS but instead find the cheapest organic potting soil you can find. Then follow this step by step mineralization proccess:
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=152027


This is two separate topics that you have mixed together. 

The use of MGOPS has been done for years and so has mineralizing topsoil. Both have there own benefits.


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

Enavas said:


> Do you guys wash your mircale gro before you put it in your tank or do you just dump it in there? This will be a new tank setup with nothing in it.


nope, just spread it out to pull out the larger woody pieces, then put it in the tank.



ChadRamsey said:


> i would STRONGLY reccommend that you do not use MGOPS


Why?


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## ThinkTank (May 24, 2011)

I just dump it in and cap. Sometimes i'll dump it in a bucket of water first and skim off the floating bits of mulch.


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## chunkychun (Apr 6, 2012)

I did the same as altiuscitius just to see if mineralizing would help with algae and ammonia etc. Just flooded and so far so good.


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

Gatekeeper said:


> This is two separate topics that you have mixed together.
> 
> The use of MGOPS has been done for years and so has mineralizing topsoil. Both have there own benefits.


im not too sure what you mean about the mixing of topics.

I will revise my post to the follow:

1. pass on the MGOPS (just my opinion, derived from my own personal experience)

2. go with cheapo top soil and mineralize it.

I think that that may have been a more clear way of explaining my stance.

Sorry for the confusion.


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## aquatic serenity (May 24, 2011)

again - whats wrong with the mgocpm ???


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

aquatic serenity said:


> again - whats wrong with the mgocpm ???


nothing based on the in tank results I've enjoyed.


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## Enavas (Jul 2, 2012)

Well...I already bought Miracle Gro and dump it in my tank. I capped it with black sand. Will be testing for ammonia for the next few weeks.


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## samjpikey (Oct 11, 2011)

Ive used mgops not the potting mix, actually it was the potatoe and vegatable version , all organic , I just dumped it in and capped with black sand , had a few floaty bits at 1st but nothing major , put my fish and shrimp bk in the next day (it was a substrate change ) and I had no fish or shrimp die since  that was months ago , That's my experience


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## Bermyguy (Apr 3, 2012)

Doesn't this method provide good bacteria which should help to cut down on the amount of ammonia? From what I have read, you can add the fish one time, is this correct?


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

Bermyguy said:


> Doesn't this method provide good bacteria which should help to cut down on the amount of ammonia? From what I have read, you can add the fish one time, is this correct?


It provides a great place for the bacteria to grow and live. The bacteria and live plants take care of the ammonia. If the tank is heavily planted you can safely put in the fish same day, though I usually only add a few fish at a time over a several week period so as not to over load the bacteria and plants abilities.


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## Bermyguy (Apr 3, 2012)

Thanks


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

aquatic serenity said:


> again - whats wrong with the mgocpm ???


I mineralized my MGOPS. When i did i found that at least 1/3 of the contents of the bag was either bark chips, tiny sticks or some other unidentified debris that floated up during the soaking phase. There is a ton of organic matter in there.

ALso, i am experiencing higher nitrate levels in my tank. I have since day one. Its been as high as 120ish but mostly averages in the 60's.

On Sunday i do a 50% WC, and 24 hours later the nitrates are 25is. 48 hours after the WC 30-40, and they go up each day by 10 or so.

I DO NOT DOSE any KNO3 either. 

So someone, a whole lot smarter than i, said:

_"To be honest I have used a couple of potting soil mixes for many years and had no real problems until I tried Miracle-Gro.
Miracle-Gro potting soil is a bigger problem than most apparently, because it uses some synthetic petroleum based substances that seem to resist mineralization, this is probably why they get such excellent results in the terrestrial gardens"_

And that this could be the cause of my high nitrates.


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## Soujirou (Jun 16, 2008)

I don't think you are supposed to mineralize Miracle Gro Organic Potting Mix. It is typically used in the Walstad method, which is separate from the MTS approach. I'm also confused as to how there can be synthetics in organic potting mix.


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## herns (May 6, 2008)

ChadRamsey said:


> i would STRONGLY reccommend that you do not use MGOPS but instead find the cheapest organic potting soil you can find. Then follow this step by step mineralization proccess:
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=152027


 
Thanks for posting the link. I havent been into substrate eversince but I heard about miracle gro. I think they are less expensive than the famous Japanese brands but also have good results.

Is this the name to get from Home depot? "Miracle Gro Organic Potting Mix". Do they expire?


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Ok Chad, Completely hooked and curious now reading this reply. Nothing like this has ever happened in my tanks. The ton of organic matter in the potting mix is exactly why my oldest soil tank is still growing would be my opinion. Potting Mix not Potting Soil is used here but the primary difference to my knowledge between the two is potting contains chicken waste and the soil contains cattle manure. A web buddy grabbed the wrong bag (potting soil) and even it settled down within a month.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*Miracle Gro Organic Choice Potting Mix* is the bagged product I use.
http://www.scotts.com/smg/products/Miracle-Gro/soil/in_container/pdf/mgOrganicChoicePottingMix.pdf

reading the declared contents listed in has NOTHING added other than a small amount of animal waste and ground up plant matter.


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

wkndracer said:


> Ok Chad, Completely hooked and curious now reading this reply. Nothing like this has ever happened in my tanks. The ton of organic matter in the potting mix is exactly why my oldest soil tank is still growing would be my opinion. Potting Mix not Potting Soil is used here but the primary difference to my knowledge between the two is potting contains chicken waste and the soil contains cattle manure. A web buddy grabbed the wrong bag (potting soil) and even it settled down within a month.


I havent a clue as to why it could be causing the rise in nitrates either. But it is the only factor that i can narrow it down to. My tap water Nitrates are 0. And when i do a huge water change it knocks the nitrates down big time. But like i stated above, they slowly and steadily raise back up to high levels by the next Sunday without me adding ANY to the tank through dosing.

All fauna is accounted for.I dont over feed and my ammonias are 0. 

So..... i am lead to believe that ONLY factor that could be blamed is the MGOPS. 

I am actually struggling with the idea of having to break down this tank (125g that has been up and running for 7 months) and starting all over again becuase of it.


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## nonconductive (Jan 29, 2010)

never had that issue in my 125 with MG and its been going for a couple years now.


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

Never had any issues with it either in my 40, been in the tank for a year. I do a water change like once or twice a month.


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

i am by no means saying that everyone will have the problem that i am experiencing. I am just sharing my issue with MG. 

What are you two capping your MG with? A fine grain like sand or something larger?


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## nonconductive (Jan 29, 2010)

pool filter sand


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

I'm sure you don't want 2 pages of replies from members saying "we don't have this problem". Going to go ahead and make a long reply seeing no other way. MTS method AND using material containing a bunch cow crap is giving you a double whammy on you're water parameters. All the nutrients now in mineral form are 100% ready to release with any water circulation. My advice is to seal the capping materal to reduce circulation. Add some sand. About 3/8 to 1/2". You want to allow circulation through the cap but it needs to be a very slight turn over. Sand is hard to find except black and bright white in my experience looking for it. Anything you like the look of to fill the gaps in the cap would be a huge help. 

In an existing tank what I did was fill plastic drinking cups with material then submerge the cup into the tank. Slowly shake it out in a layer over the substrate staying at about 3/8 to 1/2" or less and stop. After adding it you can lightly tug on rooted plants pulling the node up to the new substrate surface level or leave them. Several weeks down the road it naturally mixes and the original cap will be back on top. Even if it doesn't work what are you losing? I believe it will save you the tear down drama. 


cableguy69846 used this stuff without doing the whole MTS thing to the organic matter. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=150279&highlight=MGOPS&page=4 starts at post #52 but again not MTS method.

I see organics in the soil as time release food for the plants. Added bonus being the CO2 produced by the bacteria that eats the organics making the nutrients available for plant use. That's not a negative but a free plus. All the 'tree bark' and what not in MGOCPM is simply time delayed plant food. Nature wastes nothing. Think about that,,,

,,, and remember reading all the posts regarding carbon as the primary building block of all things? MTS is the bomb why? Readily available to plants right? But what if the materials aren't readily available? 

Are they then wasted? My thinking is no. Time released. Plus free CO2 

So NPT setup's burp!,,,, so what! Doesn't hurt anything, or does it???? 
I don't think so. But I'm not certain as I have only done tanks in this method for about 3 years. 

I do know that fish spawn and fry grow in NPT tanks. I know I don't have to change water every week and I know I don't have to add water column supplements every other day. If it comes down to dollars spent and effort applied I'll stack up a row of NPT tanks against any other method of tanking and spend less time and less funds for close to the same results. 

The only difference is time and where the organic break down happens.

MTS and NPT have the same goal but are entirely different. 

apples and oranges

Favorite Barr Quote; Never a one trick pony.
Especially on forums you need to understand that. 

Both NPT and MTS are dirt based yes but advocating one or the other is a personal choice.
Diana Walstad is the only one publishing work directly dealing with organic content that I'm aware of. The majority of substrate gas issues and hazards while they are valid concerns as they relate to NPT are a non issue. Monitored for a month or so then part of the method. OR deal with the effort and mess making MTS and provide all the CO2 by another means.

Leaving the organic content in place for use in the aquarium flies in the face of the MTS crowd. Some of the stated claims of it's advocates contradict the published Walstad writings. Doesn't make either entirely right or wrong in my opinion. 

'Method thumping' is wrong.

Read your tank thread looking to see what's been going on but not much in the posts about trouble. Do you have any likes or dislikes at all when it comes to flora?
Crypts grow insanely thick over a soil base as do most plants.
Sag, crypts, E. tenellus, Didiplis diandra, Polygonum sp (endless list) all look entirely different. Toughest part of dirt tanking is plant selection if you are unclear on the choice go for root feeders. Root feeders are the important key with floaters included in the starting list for the tank to settle in quickly using up the excess (imo).

hope some of this helps


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

ChadRamsey said:


> So someone, a whole lot smarter than i, said:
> 
> _"To be honest I have used a couple of potting soil mixes for many years and had no real problems until I tried Miracle-Gro._
> _Miracle-Gro potting soil is a bigger problem than most apparently, because it uses some synthetic petroleum based substances that seem to resist mineralization, this is probably why they get such excellent results in the terrestrial gardens"_
> ...


found the answer to the mystery (found the other thread)


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

ChadRamsey said:


> i am by no means saying that everyone will have the problem that i am experiencing. I am just sharing my issue with MG.
> 
> What are you two capping your MG with? A fine grain like sand or something larger?


I think we understand that, the main thing I was looking for when I asked "Why?" was just an explanation for you so strongly discouraging the use of MGOCPM. Thanks for posting a good response, explains your feelings well.

I capped in my walstad bowls with PFS, in my 40 and 15 I used small grain pea gravel.


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

wkndracer said:


> hope some of this helps



HELPS tremendously!

Thx


This is great info and a valid point of view.

I capped my mineralized MG with flourite. There are large bubbles/gas pockets under the substrate. Not only can you feel them, you can actually see them. I push on them a MASSIVE about of gas (some smell, some dont though) bubbles out.

I believe that i am too far along and too heavily planted to add sand to the substrate now. Plus, and this is just my opinion, i dont think that i would like to look of it mixed with the nartural colored flourite. Black or white sand.

Which brings me back to a total tank redo. :icon_frow

As a side note. I am going to try something. An experiment. I am going to seek out a gas pocket under the substrate, im going to push on it and then get a quick water sample in the general area of the release and test for nitrates.

Thanks again for the input. I hope the OPer is reading all this and getting something out of this.


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

nonconductive said:


> pool filter sand





kamikazi said:


> I think we understand that, the main thing I was looking for when I asked "Why?" was just an explanation for you so strongly discouraging the use of MGOCPM. Thanks for posting a good response, explains your feelings well.
> 
> I capped in my walstad bowls with PFS, in my 40 and 15 I used small grain pea gravel.


hmm, further proof for what wkndracer said about timed release.

I used flourite original


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

wkndracer may have said this in his post (sorry I didn't read through it all) but the benefit of flourite is that it absorbs nutrients and makes them available to the plants over time. I wonder if your flourite absorb all the ammonia and nitrates you get from the MG and is releasing it all in the water over time.


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## WallaceGrover (Jan 15, 2011)

I soaked mine in a bucket for about a week, just to get things going and thinking that maybe some of the more volatile stuff would come out. The smell coming from the bucket was UNGODLY but it worked just fine in the tank...


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

This can be corrected (or I'm stubborn LOL)
Flourite original at one time was my favorite crushed rock and I have it in about 50% of my tanks. Don't see considering that a problem. Another thought here reading the last post talking about substrate gassing. 

MTS does not gas (opps! ). 

Organic breakdown and bacteria cause gas pockets. I did setup 1 MTS system and gassing isn't something that happens. I read that you followed the method correctly but with a lot of gas being generated you still have a high ratio of organic materal.


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

yeah well, i have ALOT, a ton even, of gassing. And that was mostly why i strongly reccomended to the OP to just go with a cheapo top soil.

I did follow Aarons directions to a "T". It took me nearly a month to do enough to put 1.5 +/- inches of it in the bottom of my 125g.

The only explination that i have is, on a 1:1,000,000 chance that my batch of MGOPS wasnt like most others.

Im at a loss, and now i guess ill brake this tank down


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## Pooky125 (Jul 30, 2002)

That might have been your problem. You don't need much soil with MG. I usually stick with less then an inch. I've capped with everything from a pretty fine home depot sand (not black or white, btw, ran me 3.50 a bag and my plants are going NUTS), to large pea gravel with no problems. 

With an eco complete cap, my crypts grew so thick, that a year and half later, when I went to tear down the tank, I ended up pulling out a mat of plants roughly 2'x1'. Didn't smell pretty, but it was LUSH.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

did it look like this?
clay mixed in dry and all powder like.



















Customary boundary border.










The potash and dolomite mixed together. 


































The black acrylic background on this drilled tank did absolutely nothing for me so I pondered what to do with it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Angel fish like slate so,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I’ve done the background in natural slate. I had tested some awhile ago for use in another tank and liking how it looked I bought 8 more ½” 12X12’s then split them into pieces following the natural layering and glued it to the black plastic tank backing.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Pooky125 said:


> That might have been your problem. You don't need much soil with MG. I usually stick with less then an inch. I've capped with everything from a pretty fine home depot sand (not black or white, btw, ran me 3.50 a bag and my plants are going NUTS), to large pea gravel with no problems.
> 
> With an eco complete cap, my crypts grew so thick, that a year and half later, when I went to tear down the tank, I ended up pulling out a mat of plants roughly 2'x1'. Didn't smell pretty, but it was LUSH.


pool filter sand or coal slag I've used and found safe so I'll recommend it.
tried some yellow natural sands here and the fines were too fine (but better for natural color)

I try to only recommend what warm and fuzzy feelings tell me works peat&repeat :smile: silica could push issues into orbit (ready to launch on trashing it already)


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## Pooky125 (Jul 30, 2002)

No trashing from me. I wanted pool filter sand or coal slag. Couldn't find any in this area and I wasn't willing to go 20 or 30 miles for a 5 dollar bag of sand. I ended up with some All purpose sand from HD that seems to work nicely. Maybe 30% of it is very fine (though I washed it well, so most of that went away), and what's left is a mix of medium grained sand and 2-3mm gravel-y bits. Looks pretty natural. Long term we'll see how it holds up, but I know I've heard of other people using the same stuff with good results, soo...


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

ChadRamsey said:


> I did follow Aarons directions to a "T". It took me nearly a month to do enough to put 1.5 +/- inches of it in the bottom of my 125g.


This right here is why I don't even consider doing mineralization. I don't have the patience.


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## nonconductive (Jan 29, 2010)

i did it once and will never again


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

@wkndracer...mine looked similar, but was darker and not quite as fine grained.

@kamikazi and Pooky... nor will i


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## ThinkTank (May 24, 2011)

i've had my miracle grow tank going for over a year and i'm bummed that its mostly stopped gassing.

The first 6-8 months had crazy growth and lots of gas bubbles. 

Once I had a very large bubble under the substrate. I just "popped" it during a WC. It spewed some dirt, but I was cleaning the tank anyway...


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## dannylc (Jul 9, 2012)

So for a planted tank I take it all the gas bubbles in the substrate are a good thing then?


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

dannylc said:


> So for a planted tank I take it all the gas bubbles in the substrate are a good thing then?


using a base layer of soil and high in organic matter it is, otherwise it's not


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

ChadRamsey said:


> @kamikazi and Pooky... nor will i



i take that back, i would consider trying a cheapo top soil MTS.

I see the benefits of it and being as inexperienced as i am, i could use all the help that it provides


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