# 130g tank, rimless/frameless glass thickness?



## TimT (May 19, 2006)

I'm planning my new tank and I would love to follow in the footsteps of the grand masters Pjan an Scolly (although I'm too scared to build it myself). My new tank will have these dimensions: 

160 (L) x 60 (W) x 65 (H) cm = 600 liters
(63" x 23" x 25") (approx. 130 Gallons (Eng.))

As I mentioned in the tiltle I want the tank to be rimless/frameless, kinda ADA style. I've tried many calculators, read dozens of posts on several forums and i'm still not sure if it is possible to construct a rimless tank with these dimensions. 

That's where you all can help me . Is there anyone who can tell me if it is possible to (let someone) build this tank with these dimensions *and rimless??

I think the thickness of the glass should be 19mm (approx. 0.75") What do you think???

Thanks!*


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## greenleaf888 (Oct 8, 2006)

I am building pretty much the same tank 48"L, 24"W, 21"H. But I am building mine out of 10mm plate glass, which from what I have read is more than enough. The main factor that affects glass thickness from my understanding, is the height of the tank. But after talking to many DIY vetrens, they all emphasize the importance of cross braces along the top. Braces increase the strength of your tank alot, I am putting one at each end and one in the middle.

Here is a site that helped me alot and it includes a glass thickness calculator.

DIY Aquarium/Tank Plans

Hope that helps. BTW I must admit, I too am slightly nervous about building my own tank. Somthing about having water and fish crash into my living room, just doesn't appeal to me...


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## TimT (May 19, 2006)

thanks for your reply! 

I'm pretty sure that the 10mm is enough when using braces. However, I don't want to us braces  and that makes a huge difference, hence the 19mm thick glass.

When you look at images of ADA tanks or at Pjan's and Scolly's tanks, you can see that an unobstructed view in a tank from above is beautifull..... and that's what I want, no braces, rims, frames or whatever you call those ugly glass or plastic strips on top of the tank, across the tank or along te edges of the tank. 

Just 5 pieces of glass: back, front, bottom and two sides. Beauty lies in simplicity


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## greenleaf888 (Oct 8, 2006)

It's going to cost you an arm and a leg for glass that thick.. I just priced out 10mm for my tank which is slightly smaller than yours and I am paying $550. 

One 3 inch glass strip between the front and back walls will increase strength and it's barely a noticable feature in my mind. I just think your going to end up paying alot more just to have a totaly open top and it might look nice, but it's not the most efficient set up... Withought a lid you may have fish jumping to their death's, like one fellow has posted recently. Not to mention evaporation is going to be a big issue, especially with high wattage grow lights over the tank.

But if thats what you want to do, then do it. My tank will have an ornate wood canopy over it and a glass lid, to hell with simplicity:icon_evil .. Just kidding. I still think 19mm is still overkill for what you are proposing. You could probably get away with 15mm.. I would definatly keep doing research before you make any decisions, it could save you some serious money.


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## TimT (May 19, 2006)

hehe. I know it's going to cost me an insane amount of money. However, I want this tank to be "the one"  and I'm prepared to pay the price. The price will be even more insane considering I want the front to be made of low-iron (opti-white) glass.

thanks for mentioning the 15mm, although I'd rather be on the safe side (and i hope 19mm IS on the safe side). I wouldn't want my ordinary rectangular tank to transform in a panoramic view tank over time


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## Sietch31 (Feb 13, 2006)

Hi TimT !

This is a very exiting project !

I recently built my own big rimless/frameless tank (136x59x57, 460 litres) myself following Scolleys advices .
I used 12 mm glass (could not find low-iron glass in such small quantity in the UAE..., only orders of more than 2000 sqm would be considered !)

I documented it here http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/33620-sietchs-diy-rimless-122g-light-fixture.html

For glass calculations I used severals tools :

This one is really good, a selection guide for glass written by South African Architects....
Unfortunately I am not able to find the web-link to it... PM me your email adress I will sent it to you if you wish.

Also if you want to do the math here is the most complete and best calculation guide I ever found :
Questions techniques - Détermination des épaisseurs (Vitrages d'aquarium ou hublots de piscine)

(Translation of title: Technical Question - Calculation of glass thickness - Aquarium glass or swimming pool windows)

Well, it's in french but the formulas are international !
If you need help, I could translate the part you need just give me some time...

And last, from a french forum named Forumaqua, on this page you will find tables of glass thickness calculated from the St-Gobain site :

Glass thickness for framed aquariums : http://www.forumaqua.com/modules/freecontent/images/abaque_epaisseur_vitre_4_appuis.jpg

Glass thickness for frameless aquariums: http://www.forumaqua.com/modules/freecontent/images/abaque_epaisseur_vitre_3_appuis.jpg


Glass thickness is one thing, silicone quality is another one !
You can refer to Steve's well documented threads !

As I could not find the GE silicone recommended by Steve, I used this one:
Soudal: Expertise in sealants, PU foams and adhesives
Which has very close technical specs. 

As it is from a Belgian company you should be able to source it easily in the Netherlands.


Hope this will help ! 
Can't wait to see your progress !


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## TimT (May 19, 2006)

Thanks for your reply,

I sent you a PM, thanks for your information. It's helping me a lot!


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## shake (Apr 17, 2006)

Just had a look at the ADA catalog and ADA's 180x60x60cm tank is made of 15mm glass. So I would say 19mm would be safe.


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## TimT (May 19, 2006)

cool!

After closely looking at the links posted by Sietch31 and the comment of Shake, I think I could even make it 70 cm high when using 19mm glass. 

What do you all think? Should I use the 19mm combined with 65cm height and have a VERY good safety factor or should I go for 70cm high, 19mm glass and have a smaller safety factor???


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## TimT (May 19, 2006)

Well, i'm very interested what you think of the image below. Keep in mind that there is a rather big jump from 120 -> 150, just a small step from 150 -> 160 (Length) and a small step from 60 -> 65 ->70 (Height). The horizontal and vertical line in yellow are added by me in the picture since the size my tank will be was not listed. The red numbers is the preferred height of my (future) tank. Mind you: I extrapolated these figures from the other figures in the table, I did NOT calculate them but they seemed the most logical (somewhat) in comparison to the other numbers.










If these figures are (a bit) correct then with a height of 65 I would have a safety factor of 6! because the safty factor goes from 3,5 to 6 when you look at the thickness of the glass at +10cm of the desired height (that results in the next "box" in the diagram). Although 65+10 = 75cm is not listed, the thickness of the glass at height 75 would be between 17,5 and 20,5.....Hey that's a coincidence my 19mm glass is somewhat in between 

My guess is i'm totally safe with a tank 160x60x65 with a glass thickness of 19mm.

Again, what do you all think? Am I making any sense?


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## medicineman (Sep 28, 2005)

Get 60-65cm of height. Dont put the strength of the structure to the limit. Think of outside factors such as tank getting knocked or accidentaly holding some of your weight when you are tending the scape. 19mm will be the way to do it, it is not so wise to compare to ADA's 15mm because the stuff is made out of different material (high quality clear glass) and bonded together using their own special way. All quite similar sized frameless tanks around where I live are all using 19mm.


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## TimT (May 19, 2006)

That's what i'm leaning towards at the moment, especially after "changing" this diagram to see what would be the outcome with a 160*60*65 tank. I'd rather be on the safe side 

I think 160*60*65 it is!

P.S. the front glass will be made of low-iron (opti-white) glass. I'm afraid that it will look a bit greenish when using normal glass with a thickness of 19mm...............


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## kingborris (Feb 25, 2004)

i looked at getting a 60"x24X30" made up rimless and braceless. I was advised on 19mm glass for this. There is a good article on glass and thickness below:

http://ukdiscus.co.uk/UK Discussion - March 2005.pdf


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## TimT (May 19, 2006)

Thanks for the thumbs up (or at least i think that's what you mean),

60" x 24 x 30" = 152cm x 61cm x 76cm. 
I've read about this subject and everybody agrees that the height of the tank is far more important (construction wise) than the length.

Considering your tank is 11cm taller in height (although 8cm less length) suggests that my 160 x 60 x 65cm (63" x 23,5" x 25,6") is indeed possible & safe!!!

YAY! 

Excuse my for my bad english, i'm trying so hard to express my self correct in English (I'm from The Netherlands)

I'm so happy


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## kingborris (Feb 25, 2004)

hope you have a friendly bank manager


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## TimT (May 19, 2006)

LOL,

Like I said, I know it's going to cost me a huge amount of money.....a man's got to have a hobby eh?

The most hilarious part of it is, my wife totally agrees with me on buying this tank, you gotta love her!


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## shake (Apr 17, 2006)

medicineman said:


> Get 60-65cm of height. Dont put the strength of the structure to the limit. Think of outside factors such as tank getting knocked or accidentaly holding some of your weight when you are tending the scape. 19mm will be the way to do it, it is not so wise to compare to ADA's 15mm because the stuff is made out of different material (high quality clear glass) and bonded together using their own special way. All quite similar sized frameless tanks around where I live are all using 19mm.


How do you know the high quality clear glass ADA uses is stronger than the normal float glass. As far as I know (and I'm no expert, but have a few friends that are glaziers) The low iron glass has the same strenght as normal float glass.

And what is so special of the way they bond their glass. I assume they use silicone like every other tank manufacturer. I have noticed that their silicone is a lot clearer than anything I can find.

Sorry medicineman, not having a go at you, just curious because I'm thinking of building a 6x2x2ft rimless and the more info I can get, then I know that I will be doing it right.


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## Sietch31 (Feb 13, 2006)

I think you would be safe with 19mm.

The most important is to take care of extremely good (ie perfect) cleaning of glass (gluing surface) and of the silicone quality !

Also get help (one or two friens as your pieces of glass that thick will be really heavy) and built the scenarion in your head and in your helapers mind as clear as cristal, for no hesitation to happens during gluing process !

Last tip : read Scolley's post-it thread, one, two, three, four, five, etc...time, as many times as you are able to re-write it from a blank page !!!!


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## TimT (May 19, 2006)

Thanks, but I'm gonna leave the contruction to a professional builder  I'm just giving him the dimensions and the thickness of the glass he's supposed to use. I'm not asking the builder for several reasons:

1. there's a LFS between the builder and me.
2. I've had a lot of professional builders say a lot of different things about my tank. All from the range of 12mm to "19mm will be close"......

That's when i decided I wanted to decide how thick the glass should be! So the deal is: I say how thick it should be and he (they) are gonna build it!


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## Sietch31 (Feb 13, 2006)

The only advantage I can see for buying a tank from a manufacturer is warranty.

I doubt your tank builder will offer you any kind of warranty....

In case of problem he will reject responsibility on you: "you were the one giving me the engineering I am not responsible..."

That is why finally I saved the money and did it myself.
I do have warranty: I am sure I did my best !


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## TimT (May 19, 2006)

hmm, you've got a point there.....

Well, i'm going to the LFS withinh a week or three to make the final order and i'll be sure to discuss the warranty. If it only looks like i'll no warranty whatsoever then i'll try to build the darn thing myself! 

AAAAAAAAAARGH, no, no, no, no, no, no, i'm too afraid....... but i'll have to


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## shake (Apr 17, 2006)

TimT said:


> hmm, you've got a point there.....
> 
> Well, i'm going to the LFS withinh a week or three to make the final order and i'll be sure to discuss the warranty. If it only looks like i'll no warranty whatsoever then i'll try to build the darn thing myself!
> 
> AAAAAAAAAARGH, no, no, no, no, no, no, i'm too afraid....... but i'll have to


Tim, fly me to Holland and I will help you out.


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## TimT (May 19, 2006)

Swim m8, it ain't that far


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## Sietch31 (Feb 13, 2006)

Well fly me as well !
All three of us we will glue your tank in less time than we should need for drinking a beer !



TimT said:


> AAAAAAAAAARGH, no, no, no, no, no, no, i'm too afraid....... but i'll have to


:icon_mrgr :icon_mrgr :icon_mrgr 

And this is nothing compared to what you feel the first time you fill it up to the edge....:hihi:


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