# 20 Long - First FW Planted Build!



## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

After many months off tending to some serious reef tank issues, I'm back and ready to get my first freshwater planted tank up and running! I've had reef aquariums my whole life, but there is a certain subdued, simple, yet striking beauty to a well done planted tank that has always drawn my interest. 

Tank Goals:

1. Full bottom carpet plant. 
2. A terrestrial look.
3. Galaxy rasboras.
4. A fulfilling experience.

I'm a tinkerer. I love all that goes with setting up a tank. Every part of the build, testing, tweaking, researching, etc. I believe that will be reflected in this build. I hope I can lean on the experience of those more well versed in this hobby for the assistance I will most certainly need to be successful. As such, I thank everyone who contributes in advance, and would like to reiterate my thanks to those who have helped to this point!

Bump: Every build starts with a stand. First things first, the skeleton:










Fresh coat of white paint:










As I usually do, I used Rocketengineers basic skeleton concept, found here: 

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1169964


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

You'll have to excuse my mess of a garage. It'll get cleaned up when the build is finished, but I usually work in a state of organized chaos.

Anyway, you'll see I added some lights. I put lighting in all my stands, and prefer mogul based bulbs that I can wire to a switch:










You'll also see the outlets. I like having outlets built into the stand. It's infinitely more convienent. Of course, you must make sure to have the first outlet in the chain be a GFCI!


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## kaldurak (May 2, 2010)

Subscribed! 20g long footprint is best 😄 can't wait to see yours develop!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Tank stand skeletons are ugly. Well, I like them, but they tend not to fit with the decor of a room. And it's generally convenient to have the guts tucked away. People and animals have a tendency to do major damage to fish tank guts... So, time to "skin" the stand.










I built this panel, and two matching side panels, but couldn't figure out what color to stain the Xs. Thanks to the advice of someone on a hockey forum of all places, I found my answer.










Grey! Just like the rest of the panel... But the second part of the suggestion was to make the background a dark walnut, which I think turned out very nice.

Bump: One thing I hate on stands: Hinges. I hate doors. They are so inconvenient. But I found a great workaround online that I have been using for years now. Magnets! Those magnets that hold cabinet doors closed are surprisingly strong. Strong enough to easily hold that large front panel on with just three. That panel is about 32 inches wide by 36 inches high, by the way:




























This way, all three panels are completely removable, and exceptionally easily replaced. You would be amazed at how much more access this grants you to the inside of the stand. Removing the entire sump, if necessary, becomes much, much easier.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Here is what it looks like from what will be the back side of the stand. No hinges in sight!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I really have to thank a few people for assisting in solenoid selection. Particularly @jeffkrol, @PlantedRich and @guy4123. I learned a lot about solenoids and what best suited my needs. Went with the Clippard and it works great! I managed to squeeze the entire setup into a small space because the solenoid was so small. 



















Also a huge thanks to @Aqua99 for basically walking me through regulator selection. I got a tremendous deal on the regulator following Aqua's advice.

Bump: Those pictures are a bit of a teaser, so here is a slightly more finished state of the stand. I admittedly started to get a bit lazy with plumbing. It's not super clean, and I'm not super proud of that fact, but it should be very functional, and that matters most. You can see that this tank will be controlled via an Apex.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Some may recognize this overflow setup. for everyone out there that has ever run any type of overflow system and not used the beananimal setup, do yourself a favor and try it out on your next setup BeanAnimal's Bar and Grill - Silent and Fail-Safe Overflow System. By far my favorite return system. It's not complete yet as I just got the glass to construct the actual overflow box, but you can see the beginnings of it.










I had to get a couply pipe support brackets to hold the pipes on the back, which worked quite nicely:










I'm interested to see how much space this actually takes up in the tank. I don't think it will be too bad once completed. It's certainly going to be far less obtrusive than having any equipment in the tank.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

If there is one thing that I am terrible at, it's silicone seams. I will always and forever be awful at them. That said, it's doesn't help when you order glass pieces that aren't quite large enough and you end up with 1/4" gaps on either side of your sump baffles... At least they seem to be watertight seals!










The glass for the internal overflow fit very nicely. It doesn't take up too much room in the tank, and the seals also seem to the water tight!










Getting a bit closer every day! Light is on order, just need to stock up on some test kits and ferts. I'm thinking of trying a dry start to for the carpet plant. Got some ideas for that process.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Testing the system!



















This system is DEAD silent. That is a must as it's going in a bedroom. The return pump is incredibly quiet and packs a surprising punch in a tiny size: https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/mightyjet-midsize-aio-dc-return-pump-538-gph-innovative-marine.html


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Light shipped today! Got a good deal on a second hand Seneye. I've read mixed reviews, but I'm interested to give the PAR meter a shot.

Thinking about ferts. I'd love to do a solution to dose via a doser. This is where I would like to lean on experience (@Greggz, @burr740, @Seattle_Aquarist) and where I lack it completely. I'd like to follow the EI method, and would greatly appreciate suggestions on ferts, as in what and where to purchase. I think I understand micros vs. macros. If I understand correctly, the main macros are phosphate and nitrate. Each can be added via different compounds. Micros include iron, calcium, magnesium, etc. Is there a good micro mix that would be recommended? Specific Macros?

Thanks!


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Nice build! As for ferts, the easiest thing would be to purchase this - Estimative Index | Aquarium Fertilizer Bags | GLA Dry Ferts

They have articles on their website how to mix and calculate and all that, links to the EI method etc

Read up on some of that stuff. Once you have a better general understanding, post any specific questions and someone will be glad to help


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

burr740 said:


> Nice build! As for ferts, the easiest thing would be to purchase this - Estimative Index | Aquarium Fertilizer Bags | GLA Dry Ferts
> 
> They have articles on their website how to mix and calculate and all that, links to the EI method etc
> 
> Read up on some of that stuff. Once you have a better general understanding, post any specific questions and someone will be glad to help


That is a tremendous help! Thank you!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Anyone have any guesses as to what this rock is? I'm not familiar with with this rock. It's almost shiny with gold colored flecks. My local saltwater fish store said they got it mistakenly and gave me like 60 lbs for free. I don't want to just plunk it in a tank without knowing anything about it, though.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Getting close! Light arrived, just have to mount it. Doser arrived, a few other odds and ends will arrive tomorrow. I'll get some more pictures up soon.

I have a question regarding water. Is there a general preference between dechlorinated tap water or reminerlized RO/DI water for a high tech build? I have an RO for my reef tank, so either option is equally viable. I like the idea of being able to precisely control the makeup of the water after going through the RO, but if it isn't worth the effort (or potential of screwing up the remineralization process) for the potential gain, I'd rather not go down that path.


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## asliceofkate (Nov 3, 2018)

That rock kinda looks like mica. Is it a bit flakey? A quick search shows it seems ok to use if that's what it is, but I have no experience with it myself.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

asliceofkate said:


> That rock kinda looks like mica. Is it a bit flakey? A quick search shows it seems ok to use if that's what it is, but I have no experience with it myself.


It's not particularly flaky, no. I don't think it's mica, but I'm not sure. 

In any case, I took some tap water and filled one of the sections of the sump. Then I watched the pH via the Apex. It settled out at 6.9. Then I put the rock in and have been watching the pH all day. It went to 6.86 over the course of the day, so I at least don't think it's contributing any buffering capacity.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

The milk crates on the left house the ATO reservoir and the doser/dosing containers.


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## irishspy (Oct 22, 2007)

Subscribed. This is a really educational thread, and I wish I could hire you to build a stand for me. :biggrin:


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

irishspy said:


> Subscribed. This is a really educational thread, *and I wish I could hire you to build a stand for me*. :biggrin:


Thanks! But to be honest, if I can do it, anyone can :grin2: 

I have to start taking pictures with my DSLR, as the LED blue nonsense starts again... I did end up going with the 18" SB Reef Light Freshwater fixture. I'll be interested to see the PAR numbers once the tank is filled. It looks like hanging it eliminated any shadowing, but I'll have to wait and see what it looks like once it's filled.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

So here is what is going on behind the milk crates:










Doser:










ATO Reservoir:










Bump: Under the hood of the tank:


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## irishspy (Oct 22, 2007)

Now *that* is a "high-tech setup." :thumbsup:


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Starting to play with the hardscape a bit:


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I really love the way Seiryu looks. I think I like this basic hardscape, though I may get some more seiryu and replace the flat stone on the left. 



















I used BDBS, but also want to dry start this tank to form the carpet. So I put a very light layer of Fluval Stratum under the top layer of sand. I'm hoping that provides the nutrients for the dry start. I'm not too worried about it breaking down as there isn't much there. By the time the nutrients are exhausted, I will be dosing the water column, so I think I should be OK. I guess we shall see.


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## nshak14 (Dec 27, 2014)

Subscribed! Your design to attach the stand skin with cabinet magnets is genius! Also it's nice to follow threads that are way beyond my ability right now  gives me something to strive for!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

irishspy said:


> Now *that* is a "high-tech setup." :thumbsup:


I love technology :grin2:



nshak14 said:


> Subscribed! *Your design to attach the stand skin with cabinet magnets is genius!* Also it's nice to follow threads that are way beyond my ability right now  gives me something to strive for!


That's what I thought the first time I saw it as well haha. Actually, I never saw it applied to stand panels. I saw someone use the technique on hood panels and thought it would be super convenient to apply that to stand panels.

This is the part I'm usually pretty good at. But I'm still a total noob when it comes to keeping FW plants. I'm trying to set myself up for success. Hopefully it goes well. I just fixed a stupid mistake I noticed I missed when looking at the pics I took of the doser...


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## Mighty Quinn (Jul 24, 2017)

TheUnssenHand said:


> It's not particularly flaky, no. I don't think it's mica, but I'm not sure.
> 
> In any case, I took some tap water and filled one of the sections of the sump. Then I watched the pH via the Apex. It settled out at 6.9. Then I put the rock in and have been watching the pH all day. It went to 6.86 over the course of the day, so I at least don't think it's contributing any buffering capacity.


The gold specks look like iron pyrite (aka "fool's gold", iron disulfide, FeS2). Check out this link. You might not want it in your tank.

https://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/rock_metals.php


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

TheUnssenHand said:


>


Just stumbled across this thread.

Very nice job on everything so far. NASA would be proud of you!:grin2:

Subscribed and looking forward to seeing where this goes.


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## Mighty Quinn (Jul 24, 2017)

TheUnssenHand said:


> Bump: Under the hood of the tank:


Ok, consider me impressed. roud: I don't know what half the stuff in the stand is supposed to do. Give us a virtual tour of this masterpiece.

Oh, and get some hose clamps around the tubing attached to the barb fittings.


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## money88 (Apr 27, 2016)

Can tell you are a fellow reefer


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Mighty Quinn said:


> The gold specks look like iron pyrite (aka "fool's gold", iron disulfide, FeS2). Check out this link. You might not want it in your tank.
> 
> https://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/rock_metals.php


It's interesting you mention that. First, I should point out that the picture is exceptionally misleading. The "gold" is really just the warm (3500K) light reflecting off the shiny bits. That said, if I look very, very closely I do see 1 or 2 tiny flecks of what may be pyrite, about 0.5 mm across. Lowering the pH may actually be a desirable side effect of any small amount of pyrite as the Seiryu will have the opposite effect. But you definitely have me thinking. I have some geology field guides that I may take a look at to determine what this really is.



Greggz said:


> Just stumbled across this thread.
> 
> Very nice job on everything so far. NASA would be proud of you!:grin2:
> 
> Subscribed and looking forward to seeing where this goes.


Thank you! I'm sure I'll be asking for advice going forward!



Mighty Quinn said:


> Ok, consider me impressed. roud: I don't know what half the stuff in the stand is supposed to do. Give us a virtual tour of this masterpiece.
> 
> Oh, and get some hose clamps around the tubing attached to the barb fittings.


Yes, I'll have to put my amazing (read: terrible) MS paint skills to the test and make a flow diagram of what the hell is going on there. I usually have to do this anyway so when I'm on vacation the tank sitters know what they are looking at.

Hose clamps. Yeah, I know. there will be very little pressure on these, so my concern is quite low, but better safe than sorry I suppose.



money88 said:


> Can tell you are a fellow reefer


We tend to complicate things, huh? :grin2:

In researching, I'm wondering if any more Seiryu is a good idea. My original thought was to dry start and build a nice carpet. But without knowing exactly how this much stone will raise the pH, I wonder if that is a good idea. If I already have plants established, then flood it and realize I have a lot of water chemistry work to do, will that destroy what will take probably a couple months to build dry starting?


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## Mighty Quinn (Jul 24, 2017)

Hey TUH

Who drilled your tank for you?

I really like Bean Animal's overflow design. It is so clever. Also, I think surface skimming is very beneficial and it is one of the reasons I am using the tank that I have. 

I do have one criticism of your setup so far, and it is purely aesthetic. I would consider a "black box" overflow in your main tank that uses black acrylic and black caulk instead of the glass. Just a personal preference.

Otherwise, all I can say is WOW! Great job so far! 

Cheers,
TMQ


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Mighty Quinn said:


> Hey TUH
> 
> Who drilled your tank for you?
> 
> ...


Absolutely fair criticism. Acrylic sheets tend not to silicone well to glass, especially if the box is "floating" like this is. Otherwise, acrylic would be significantly easier as it is much easier to weld together. I tried to source black glass, but my local shop didn't have any. I was thinking of painting it black, but ended up not doing so. I'm not sure why. But I do hate the look of that clear overflow and my awful silicone seams. My thinking is I'll put a couple tall plants back there. I may still try to spray paint it, but it would be a challenge at this point. I'm hoping the black mesh overflow guard will help take away from how visible the seams are.

As for the holes, I drilled them myself. It's quite easy to do. People freak themselves out about it, but if you have some patience and the right tools, you can do it.


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## kaldurak (May 2, 2010)

I love pics like the ones contained here. Really shows off organizational skills for running hose, pipe, and wire! Love the setup!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Here is the stuff labeled:










And the basic waterflow. Blue is water moved by the return pump, green by the reactor feed pump:


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Also, in looking through my geology field guide, I'm thinking @asliceofkate was right all along. I dropped a piece of the rock and it does flake apart. I'm thinking it is fine-grained muscovite mica schist.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Speaking of rock, I realize I did not properly clean the seiryu before scaping. I think i'm going to take it all out and give it a bath in HCl. I'm interested to see the colors and textures it brings out in addition to ridding the surface of any dust. I am skeptical, though, about how that might shorten any leaching from the rock. It makes little sense to me. If the rock, and therefore what it's comprised of, is what is leaching, the only way to stop it would be to 1. dissolve the entire rock or 2. don't use it. I don't see how removing a small surface layer would stop any leaching if it's all the same stone.


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

Wow! You could have gotten away with a 29g. That is a ton of equipment for a 20 long. LOL. Good luck!

One thing you'll soon realize is that you don't have the height for fast growing stem plants.


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## Mighty Quinn (Jul 24, 2017)

TheUnssenHand said:


> Speaking of rock, I realize I did not properly clean the seiryu before scaping. I think i'm going to take it all out and give it a bath in HCl. I'm interested to see the colors and textures it brings out in addition to ridding the surface of any dust. I am skeptical, though, about how that might shorten any leaching from the rock. It makes little sense to me. If the rock, and therefore what it's comprised of, is what is leaching, the only way to stop it would be to 1. dissolve the entire rock or 2. don't use it. I don't see how removing a small surface layer would stop any leaching if it's all the same stone.


As long as you are going to go through the effort of pulling everything out, I would seriously consider PortalMasteryRy's comment on going with at 29 gallon. Honestly, I would even consider a 37 gallon (same footprint). Your setup can easily handle it.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Mighty Quinn said:


> As long as you are going to go through the effort of pulling everything out, I would seriously consider PortalMasteryRy's comment on going with at 29 gallon. Honestly, I would even consider a 37 gallon (same footprint). Your setup can easily handle it.


+1.

That's an awful lot of effort for a 20G. 

My guess is that if things go well, you are going to want some more real estate pretty quick.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

PortalMasteryRy said:


> Wow! You could have gotten away with a 29g. That is a ton of equipment for a 20 long. LOL. Good luck!
> 
> One thing you'll soon realize is that you don't have the height for fast growing stem plants.


I love equipment :grin2:



Greggz said:


> +1.
> 
> That's an awful lot of effort for a 20G.
> 
> My guess is that if things go well, you are going to want some more real estate pretty quick.





Mighty Quinn said:


> As long as you are going to go through the effort of pulling everything out, I would seriously consider PortalMasteryRy's comment on going with at 29 gallon. Honestly, I would even consider a 37 gallon (same footprint). Your setup can easily handle it.


I appreciate the comments guys! I'm currently renting a house and this will be the second aquarium setup in it. I was wondering at first if there was a possibility of pursuing a rent-to-own, but decided I don't really want to pursue that option. While I plan to be here a couple more years, it's not a long term place of residence, so I'm not in a position to setup a larger tank. I really wanted the minimum size tank that allows me to create a somewhat dynamic aquascape. I realize the limitations it poses, but have to keep in mind that it WILL have to be broken down in the next couple years. I know that and am OK with it. If I start going down the road of more gallons, I'm going to go too far. I've done that before (been keeping aquariums for about 17 years now). Breaking down a 90 gallon tank to move isn't something I particularly feel like doing again (I've also helped others breakdown up to 220's). It's too much work, and it's not fun in any way.

As for how much "effort" the setup is; I don't mind putting in a lot of effort up front building a stand, plumbing, drilling, wiring, etc. That's the fun part! :grin2:


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

I get it. I love all that stuff too.

Great attitude!:grin2:

Keep the updates coming.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Greggz said:


> I get it. I love all that stuff too.
> 
> Great attitude!:grin2:
> 
> *Keep the updates coming*.


Will do!

Another thing I've learned over my time keeping tanks, a well done, successful small tank is every bit a satisfying as a well done, successful large tank; and an unsuccessful small tank is every bit as frustrating as an unsuccessful large tank. But an unsuccessful large tank is more of a PITA to deal with than and unsuccessful small tank :wink2:


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

TheUnssenHand said:


> Will do!
> 
> Another thing I've learned over my time keeping tanks, a well done, successful small tank is every bit a satisfying as a well done, successful large tank; and an unsuccessful small tank is every bit as frustrating as an unsuccessful large tank. But an unsuccessful large tank is more of a PITA to deal with than and unsuccessful small tank :wink2:


Have to disagree with you there.

Once you catch the bug, more room for more plants is always on your mind.

And to me, if you are going to all the trouble, having a bigger canvas to work with is well worth it. Not much more incremental effort, but much more impact. 

Now that being said, we have some very, very impressive smaller tanks here on this board. And I am guessing this will be another one to add to the group.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Greggz said:


> Have to disagree with you there.
> 
> Once you catch the bug, *more room for more plants is always on your mind.*
> 
> ...


Haha yeah I know the feeling. I always wanted more room for corals! There is no doubt that to most people, the bigger the tank the greater the impact. I might not necessarily fall into that category though. It's certainly a subjective thing. I think a well done 15 gallon Iwagumi is more impactful that a well done 55 gallon Dutch, but that is just personal opinion. Not right or wrong. If we all felt the same way about things, the world would be a boring place!

I appreciate the second comment! Honestly, though, I'm just hoping to not kill everything or create an algae farm. I'm sure I'll be asking for a lot of help once plants actually hit the soil!


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## kaldurak (May 2, 2010)

PortalMasteryRy said:


> Wow! You could have gotten away with a 29g. That is a ton of equipment for a 20 long. LOL. Good luck!
> 
> One thing you'll soon realize is that you don't have the height for fast growing stem plants.



I will mildly disagree!  I love constantly topping and replanting my stems in my 20 long. It's super therapeutic!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

@Mighty Quinn

I took the opportunity while I emptied the tank to do a slight modification:


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## Proteus01 (Mar 12, 2017)

Nice upgrade. Plan on keeping the hardscape as it was before? 
I took forever to finally start painting tanks black - will likely do it for all tanks going forward. Having that overflow box blacked out is a good choice. 
Looking forward to seeing what else you create.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Proteus01 said:


> Nice upgrade. Plan on keeping the hardscape as it was before?
> I took forever to finally start painting tanks black - will likely do it for all tanks going forward. Having that overflow box blacked out is a good choice.
> Looking forward to seeing what else you create.


Thanks! I may have hesitated on this one as I've painted an overflow once before in a reef tank and the turbo snails managed to chew the paint off! 

As for the hardscape, I'm not sure. I ordered some more Seiryu and want to see what everything looks like after and acid bath. Likely something similar, but with seiryu in place of the exposed flat stone. It will depend what the new stone looks like, though.


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## Mighty Quinn (Jul 24, 2017)

TheUnssenHand said:


> @Mighty Quinn
> 
> I took the opportunity while I emptied the tank to do a slight modification:


roud:

Looks good TUH! I think the blacked out overflow is a big improvement.

I know that taking the tank down was a PITA, but you have put in a Herculean effort on this 20 gallon so far, and paying a little attention to those small details makes a big positive impact.

I can't wait to see what you make of this technological beauty!

Cheers
TMQ


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Muriatic Acid + Seiryu = Lots of fizz... 

I'm soaking the rocks in water at the moment. I'm quite interested to see how they look after the bath. The black sludge that was left behind makes me think these rocks would have dissolved completely if left overnight.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Am I crazy to think I can do a dry start with only BDBS? I'm thinking of mixing some macros and micros, using fine grained BDBS, which I've found holds water well, and moistening the sand with the ferts. The key would be mixing the proper amount of ferts. I like this idea because it eliminates the use of any type of soil, but have no idea how realistic it is.


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## Proteus01 (Mar 12, 2017)

Muriatic acid + just about anything not absolutely inert = fizz. It’s a fairly strong acid - much stronger than water with a little carbonic acid from CO2 injection. I wonder if the troubles with dissolving rocks is held a bit higher as a problem that it deserves. 
I don’t use limestone in my tanks, but I have used stones that would have some small reactions. No real issues. 
I use muriatic acid diluted 4:1 with water to do spot checks at a garden center for rock choices, with a small spray bottle, but I’m only looking for big reactions, not a little fizz. 
I’m curious to learn more. I’m finding most info quickly available about rock dissolving is just repeated opinions without evidence.


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## Mighty Quinn (Jul 24, 2017)

TheUnssenHand said:


> Am I crazy to think I can do a dry start with only BDBS? I'm thinking of mixing some macros and micros, using fine grained BDBS, which I've found holds water well, and moistening the sand with the ferts. The key would be mixing the proper amount of ferts. I like this idea because it eliminates the use of any type of soil, but have no idea how realistic it is.


You might want to check out Chhr05's thread on dry start if you have not already seen it. He is a big proponent of not spraying water or fertilizer during dry start in order to minimize mold growth.

Cheers,
TMQ


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## Proteus01 (Mar 12, 2017)

A great despair.com poster would tell you that until you spread your wings to fly, you won’t know how far you can walk. 
That DSM post is full of great info, and seems very reasonable. I’m curious, though, if BDBS can work. Being the fan of cheap that I am, getting that method developed would be well worth it. Or, failure will further prove the worth of aquasoil.


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## Mighty Quinn (Jul 24, 2017)

Proteus01 said:


> I’m curious, though, if BDBS can work. Being the fan of cheap that I am, getting that method developed would be well worth it. Or, failure will further prove the worth of aquasoil.


It appears that there are a number of tanks on this forum that have successfully used BDBS. However, at least for me, I wouldn't (and didn't) choose BDBS for my first attempt at a planted tank. Personally, I am hoping for a more bullet proof setup on my first try, which is why I went with ADA Aqua Soil. My tank is small (~25 gallon) and the expense for ADA Aqua Soil was relatively small, at least for me.

That being said, our OP for this thread (TUH) is clearly a DIY expert, and I don't get the impression that a couple bags of ADA Aqua Soil are going to break his budget. So he must have another reason for wanting to use BDBS instead.

TUH: why do you want to try BDBS for your first setup?

Cheers,
TMQ


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Mighty Quinn said:


> You might want to check out Chhr05's thread on dry start if you have not already seen it. He is a big proponent of not spraying water or fertilizer during dry start in order to minimize mold growth.
> 
> Cheers,
> TMQ


I'm not necessarily suggesting spraying during the process. I'm suggesting moistening the sand with fertilizer filled water up front. That said, mold will form if the humidity is high and airflow low regardless of what soil you use. I have a humidity controller hooked up to a couple computer case fans I plan to use to keep the humidity a constant value and keep air flowing in the tank. That should help combat any mold that might form.



Proteus01 said:


> A great despair.com poster would tell you that *until you spread your wings to fly, you won’t know how far you can walk*.
> That DSM post is full of great info, and seems very reasonable. I’m curious, though, if BDBS can work. Being the fan of cheap that I am, getting that method developed would be well worth it. Or, failure will further prove the worth of aquasoil.


I like the way you think.



Mighty Quinn said:


> It appears that there are a number of tanks on this forum that have successfully used BDBS. However, at least for me, I wouldn't (and didn't) choose BDBS for my first attempt at a planted tank. Personally, I am hoping for a more bullet proof setup on my first try, which is why I went with ADA Aqua Soil. My tank is small (~25 gallon) and the expense for ADA Aqua Soil was relatively small, at least for me.
> 
> That being said, our OP for this thread (TUH) is clearly a DIY expert, *and I don't get the impression that a couple bags of ADA Aqua Soil are going to break his budget*. So he must have another reason for wanting to use BDBS instead.
> 
> ...


That is correct. My reasoning is really twofold.

1. I don't like the idea of soil that creates a dust storm when you move stuff around. I want to be able to change things up with little fuss if necessary.

2. More importantly, I like to limit variables. To me, that soil is a variable. I know what the concentrations of the dry fertilizers are. I can add a known amount to known amount of water and know how much the concentration will increase. The ADA soil adds nutrients, but how much, how fast, and how long will it last? How dependent is it on the amount you add? Does it add less and less nutrients over time, or does it go from contributing to not contributing at all all at once? These questions aren't particularly easy to answer. It's so much less controllable. 

With something inert, I know if something is going wrong, nothing with the soil changed. It's completely eliminated as a variable and a possible contributor to a change. I can feel confident that, if I add X fertilizer, the resulting concentration in the water should be Y. If it's Y+ or Y-, at least I know it's not the soil.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

TheUnssenHand said:


> 2. More importantly, I like to limit variables. To me, that soil is a variable. I know what the concentrations of the dry fertilizers are. I can add a known amount to known amount of water and know how much the concentration will increase. The ADA soil adds nutrients, but how much, how fast, and how long will it last? How dependent is it on the amount you add? Does it add less and less nutrients over time, or does it go from contributing to not contributing at all all at once? These questions aren't particularly easy to answer. It's so much less controllable.
> 
> With something inert, I know if something is going wrong, nothing with the soil changed. It's completely eliminated as a variable and a possible contributor to a change. I can feel confident that, if I add X fertilizer, the resulting concentration in the water should be Y. If it's Y+ or Y-, at least I know it's not the soil.


Agreed and well put. 

But I can sum it up more succinctly.

That stuff scares me!!:grin2:


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## Mighty Quinn (Jul 24, 2017)

Greggz said:


> Agreed and well put.
> 
> But I can sum it up more succinctly.
> 
> That stuff scares me!!:grin2:


TUH and Greggz,

As someone who has over 20 years experience in processes engineering, I completely understand the desire to understand and quantify your "ins" and your "outs" in a batch system (ooh, that reminds me to ask Greggz where I can find a copy of the spreadsheet he uses for his tank parameters).

However, I thought that the whole purpose of the EI system for dosing fertilizers is to flood the water column with an excess of a balanced combination of nutrients, and that the system is "reset" by doing large water changes on a frequent (i.e. weekly) basis. My assumption has been that the nutrients that slowly leach from a substrate such as ADA Aqua Soil would be relatively small compared to what is added to the tank via a typical EI dosing regimen. 

In other words, I have assumed that nutrients added to the water column by the substrate would be a secondary contributor compared to those added by intentional EI micro and macro dosing. 

In addition, we really have no way to measure the nutrient uptake of the plants in the tank, which again is why the EI method is so popular.

So, given that the substrate contribution is small compared to the EI dosing contribution (I don't know if this true, but it is what I have assumed), and given that we don't really have a handle on nutrient uptake by the plants, AND we are doing large, weekly water changes to "reset" the water, I am very intrigued by this comment:



Greggz said:


> That stuff scares me!!:grin2:


Greggz: you are one of the most respected and quantitative contributors to this forum, which is why I am very interested to hear more about why you are scared of substrates that contain nutrients. 

I don't want to hijack this thread, so perhaps we should start a new one on the pros and cons of substrates with nutrients.

Cheers,
TMQ


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

@Mighty Quinn: The *2Hr Aquarist's Guide *has a very good description of substrates and their pros and cons.


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## Mighty Quinn (Jul 24, 2017)

Ken Keating1 said:


> @Mighty Quinn: The *2Hr Aquarist's Guide *has a very good description of substrates and their pros and cons.


I can't believe that I have not seen The 2HR Aquarist website. Not sure how I missed it, but it looks great! I guess I know what I'll be reading for the next week or so.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention Ken.

Cheers,
TMQ


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Mighty Quinn said:


> I am very interested to hear more about why you are scared of substrates that contain nutrients.


I am no expert on Aquasoil, as I have never used it. Like the OP described above, it's an active substrate. Leaches ammonia, eats up P, lowers KH.......but not in any uniform way. So you really need to understand what you are dealing with and how to approach using it.

As it ages, it also becomes depleted. I've seen many tanks with Aquasoil start off like gangbusters, then when the soil becomes depleted, the tank literally crashes. 

I'm in no way against it, and there are some spectacular tanks using it. But for me, I have enough other stuff to worry about without trying to micromanage what my soil is doing. 

Our own @burr740 set up a tank earlier this year, and it was interesting to follow. Here is a link to where it starts, and it goes on for quite some time. Lot's of interesting comments from many interesting contributors. Well worth a read to learn more.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11085191-post953.html

Another great thread is the following. No matter what substrate you are using, many great lessons there.........................

https://barrreport.com/threads/going-dutch-with-aquasoil.13105/

And the link to download the spreadsheet is below in my signature (Greggz Tank Info Version 3.0)


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Mighty Quinn said:


> TUH and Greggz,
> 
> As someone who has over 20 years experience in processes engineering, I completely understand the desire to understand and quantify your "ins" and your "outs" in a batch system (ooh, that reminds me to ask Greggz where I can find a copy of the spreadsheet he uses for his tank parameters).
> 
> ...


This is exactly the kind of constructive and informative discussion I would prefer to have in this thread! The more rabbit holes we can dive down, the better! That's how we learn, and I know I have a lot of learning to do :smile2:


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## Mighty Quinn (Jul 24, 2017)

Greggz said:


> I am no expert on Aquasoil, as I have never used it. Like the OP described above, it's an active substrate. Leaches ammonia, eats up P, lowers KH.......but not in any uniform way. So you really need to understand what you are dealing with and how to approach using it.
> 
> As it ages, it also becomes depleted. I've seen many tanks with Aquasoil start off like gangbusters, then when the soil becomes depleted, the tank literally crashes.
> 
> ...


Thanks Greggz. I can appreciate the desire to have a "neutral" substrate that doesn't change with time, thereby giving one more control over the system. Your comment on tanks suddenly crashing does indeed scare the bejesus out of me, considering that I just started my first tank with ADA substrate. 

Definitely going to read through those links you provided. Also, thanks for providing the link to your spreadsheet.

Looks like I am going to be doing a lot of reading over the holiday weekend!

Cheers,
TMQ


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## CMcNam (Dec 5, 2018)

Just a beginner, but I avoided Aquasoil (even though it is in abundance here!) because of lessons I learned from my other hobby, cars. Suspension and engines are often modified haphazardly by people who don't view them as entire systems, working in tandem, and they "crash" so to speak because they used a variety of parts from different manufacturers that don't play well together. In the same way, Aquasoil is a key part of the ADA system. It's very prominent here, where they display it all together and build tanks centered around using every part of the ADA system. Used together, it works great, and damn near anyone with the money can do it. Start mixing and matching parts and they tend to crash. There are exceptions. Beginners would be wise to use the entire system until they understand the "why" of how they work together. More advanced hobbyists can take bits and pieces and make them work because they know the why and have the means to track down the issues.

So I avoided Aquasoil because as a beginner I didn't want to buy the entire (overpriced) system to go along with it. If I'm going to screw it up, I want it to be cheap.

At least, that's how it seemed to me when I started researching what to get and came across crashed tank after crashed tank that began with Aquasoil and not the rest of the system.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I really like the way the right side looks:










but I'm not sure what to do with the left. I only played with this for about 20 minutes. I'll think about it some more tomorrow.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Maybe some trees make it slightly more interesting?


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

My answer to tool storage. A little side project:



















Didn't get quite as much done as I wanted to this weekend. I think I'm sticking with this aquascape. I did get the humidity controller set up, tomorrow I will test the functionality. If it works, I'm pretty much ready to order plants. I got the doser calibrated, but need to better understand my tap water parameters. I was thinking about just RO for this, but our tap water is ridiculously clean. I don't think RO is necessary, but I'd like to get a better idea of micronutrient concentrations in my tap. Can anyone recommend a good outside lab to send a sample to?


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Fired up the humidity controller. Seems to be working fine. I'm going to let it do it's thing for a few days. If it works, it will be time to order plants.




























Not exactly pretty, but functional.


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## Jay12 (Dec 16, 2018)

Looking great! Very excited to see plants go in. 

As an electrical engineer, I've been resisting the urge to set up a microcontroller to control literally everything in the tank and your ultra high tech tank is not helping here, Hahaha, just don't want to take on another project


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Jay12 said:


> Looking great! Very excited to see plants go in.
> 
> As an electrical engineer, I've been resisting the urge to set up a microcontroller to control literally everything in the tank and your ultra high tech tank is not helping here, Hahaha, just don't want to take on another project


I bet that shoddy wiring job is driving you crazy :grin2: You'll have to forgive me as I'm just a humble Quality Engineer.

I'm looking at Micranthemum tweediei 'Monte Carlo' as the carpet plant. I'm also looking at BucePlant and the tissue culture. How much of that would I need to get started? I can't tell how much you actually get with that culture.


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## Jay12 (Dec 16, 2018)

TheUnssenHand said:


> I bet that shoddy wiring job is driving you crazy :grin2: You'll have to forgive me as I'm just a humble Quality Engineer.


Nah, it's functional and looks just fine. Much better than the average joe that tosses a power strip in there haha.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Played with the scape again. I think it looks a bit less natural like this without plants, but should look better with plants than the previous setup.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnssenHand said:


> Fired up the humidity controller. Seems to be working fine. I'm going to let it do it's thing for a few days. If it works, it will be time to order plants.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Most high tech dry start setup I’ve ever seen!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

vvDO said:


> Most high tech dry start setup I’ve ever seen!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Will be interesting to see if this works. With no experience with this technique, or planted tanks in general, I'm basically just winging it :laugh2:


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Looks like a great start to me! I think I prefer the new scape setup, the previous iteration looked less natural to me, still gorgeous but less natural. 
I am very interested to see how this all goes, good luck!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

@Greggz

Could you post or shoot me a link to your fertilizer excel sheet? I'd like to have a look at it and get an idea of how it is setup. Thanks!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

TheUnssenHand said:


> @Greggz
> 
> Could you post or shoot me a link to your fertilizer excel sheet? I'd like to have a look at it and get an idea of how it is setup. Thanks!


Here is the link to a shared drive. It's also always in my signature.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1CI7FdUKHGv7CgfA3lRJZdxESN07exBsu

Anyone can download these files and customize them to their own needs. The idea has been it makes it easier to post a current "snapshot" of any tank. I know it helps me digest what others are doing.

When I make changes, I take a screenshot and date it. That way it's easy for me to look back and see where I was at any time.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Greggz said:


> Here is the link to a shared drive. It's also always in my signature.
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1CI7FdUKHGv7CgfA3lRJZdxESN07exBsu
> 
> ...


Perfect, thank you!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Getting tired of waiting for the plants I want to be in stock...


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Finally back in stock, DS plants have been ordered!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I'm not entirely sure if Rotala Butterfly makes any assumptions as I can't see the background calculations, but does my logic make sense here @Greggz?










Given the parameters set forth in the image above, my logic, though it's been known to be quite flawed, says I should be able to assume the ppm of NO3 in the container is 40ppm. Is that correct?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

TheUnseenHand said:


> I'm not entirely sure if Rotala Butterfly makes any assumptions as I can't see the background calculations, but does my logic make sense here @Greggz?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, the logic is sound.

Trying to figure out what you are doing? Are you making a reference solution?

If so, that's a very small amount of KNO3. Do you have a gram scale?

FWIW, I have a sheet in my Google Drive linked in my sig that shows how to make reference solutions. Be sure to use a known source water with no KNO3.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Greggz said:


> Yeah, the logic is sound.
> 
> Trying to figure out what you are doing? Are you making a reference solution?
> 
> ...


Just thinking about how I'm going to fertilize during the dry start. Dosing to a tank is basically diluting. You have to dilute the fertilizer prior to adding during a dry start as there isn't a tank full of water to dilute it. I do have a scale that goes to the 100th of a gram, and calibration weights, but it's not an analytical balance. I may weigh the KNO3 out at work. I could always weigh out more and dilute the solution, but I really don't feel like having extra solution bottles all over the place.

Also, I plan to use RO/DI water for this. Our water is exceptionally clean, and I've always got all 0's out of the RO/DI.

I do plan to send a tap water sample to an outside lab for analysis as I don't plan to use RO/DI for water changes. I'll probably take several samples over a week or two and make a composite sample.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I've found that, when it's the day of and USPS doesn't say "Out for Delivery", your not getting your stuff that day. Really hope it comes tomorrow at the latest or I'm gonna have a lot of dead plants...


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

And what do ya know, it's not here. Sucks because it's been pretty chilly lately. Glad I sprung for the 72 hour heat pack. Still nervous, though. I hope everything is alive whenever it does arrive.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

TheUnseenHand said:


> And what do ya know, it's not here. Sucks because it's been pretty chilly lately. Glad I sprung for the 72 hour heat pack. Still nervous, though. I hope everything is alive whenever it does arrive.


Hoping it all turns out alright with the plants!!! Just did my planting today so this is day 1 of the DSM. Now need to really consider how I will fertilize as well!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Plants not getting here today, which means Monday at the earliest. That likely means 4 days in 35 or fewer degrees. Ugh.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Plants not getting here today, which means Monday at the earliest. That likely means 4 days in 35 or fewer degrees. Ugh.




The main issue is when the plants arrive and sitting outside or in your mailbox. As long as the plants are at a facility or in transit they should be ok as far as the temp goes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

vvDO said:


> The main issue is when the plants arrive and sitting outside or in your mailbox. As long as the plants are at a facility or in transit they should be ok as far as the temp goes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, assuming they are in a facility and not sitting on a truck. So I guess there is hope


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Well, I'll at least be ready whenever the plants do arrive.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Well, plants finally arrived. They look fine, but were cool to cold to the touch. I opened the tops of all the containers and put the containers in the tank. I may leave they like that for a day or two before attempting to plant them.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

So it begins!

I have a few more plants coming, it's kind of amazing how little you get for how much you spend. Granted, it's not as bad as corals.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> So it begins!
> 
> 
> 
> I have a few more plants coming, it's kind of amazing how little you get for how much you spend. Granted, it's not as bad as corals.




I see that you received some hair grass and Monte Carlo... best way to plant these and it is a little bit of a pain... is to separate the plant and spread them out over a larger area. Plant a few strands about a cm apart or less. This helps the plant grow out and fill in the spaces in between. Kinda like this...







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Bump:


vvDO said:


> I see that you received some hair grass and Monte Carlo... best way to plant these and it is a little bit of a pain... is to separate the plant and spread them out over a larger area. Plant a few strands about a cm apart or less. This helps the plant grow out and fill in the spaces in between. Kinda like this...
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=29LOIrKt9Ks
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you!

I actually want the hair grass to stay as clumps. I will definitely separate the Monte Carlo when my other plants arrive. For now I just wanted them in the tank out of the gel. I'm not sure exactly where they are going to go yet, so I didn't want to separate them out too much.

I did notice the Monte Carlo in particular was very tough to separate. I know you have to carefully kind of comb through to find where it wants to separate, but can I just tear it apart when it doesn't easily come apart?


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

For the planting, yes. Single stems or bunches of like 3 will give you great coverage. It really is a painstaking process, but those cups can give too great value with patience in planting. Both the monte carlo and hair grass. 

Enjoy the process, for me it is sort of therapeutic!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Grobbins48 said:


> For the planting, yes. Single stems or bunches of like 3 will give you great coverage. It really is a painstaking process, but those cups can give too great value with patience in planting. Both the monte carlo and hair grass.
> 
> Enjoy the process, for me it is sort of therapeutic!


Thanks!

When my other plants come in, I'll separate everything and plant in their final locations. I do think I like the clumps of hair grass, though. I think it will help it stand out over what I hope is a carpet of monte carlo.

Anyway, just to document what is actually going on here in case it actually works:










In the middle of the tank is a humidity probe and a temperature probe. Each are hooked up to a humidity controller. Also attached to the controller are two computer case fans. One fan on each side of the tank. The fan on the right points into the tank and the one on the left points out of the tank. When the humidity the controller reads hits 85%, it kicks the fans on. The fan on the right brings some new air in and the fan on the left pumps the humid air out. This creates a nice airflow across the entire tank. Once the humidity hits 80%, the fans turn off. There is one additional, very small case fan that is always on. This fan helps circulate air in the tank when the other fans are off, and helps evaporate water in the tank to keep the humidity up.

For ferts, I mixed Macros and Micros into spray bottles at 25ppm NO3, 4 ppm PO3/4, 20 ppm K and micros (Plantex CSM+B) @ 0.2ppm Fe. I'll spray these at some frequency I have yet to define. I first wetted the BDBS with the ferts, planted the plants, gave another quick few sprays of each fert, then did a final few sprays of RO/DI water.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Looking forward to seeing where this goes! High tech humidity controller action is impressive.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)




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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

@Greggz, @burr740: So I notice I have some browning leaves on some of the Monte Carlo. I've been watching the humidity. It seems like it reaches a low point of 70% through the day. It averages about 80% with a high of 92%. I bumped the controller up to allow it to go that high before kicking on the fans. Nothing else seems to be browning like that.

My question is, is it normal during a dry start to see a little browning on some of the leaves before the plants start growing again? I imagine all the separation and planting is pretty stressful.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Wish I could help but I have no experience with the dry start method. 

I am learning about it watching you!

Maybe someone with experience will see this and chime in???


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Same. Honestly Ive never seen the point in the DSM. Why grow out a nice carpet or whatever only to then force it to convert? 

Personally I rather get the converting part over with sooner rather than later. If submerged conditions are favorable all these plants are going to take off rapidly anyway. And if they arent, all the dry starting in the world aint gonna help 

I say flood that sucker now and dont worry about it!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

burr740 said:


> Same. Honestly Ive never seen the point in the DSM. Why grow out a nice carpet or whatever only to then force it to convert?
> 
> Personally I rather get the converting part over with sooner rather than later. If submerged conditions are favorable all these plants are going to take off rapidly anyway. And if they arent, all the dry starting in the world aint gonna help
> 
> I say flood that sucker now and dont worry about it!


Haha. I understand that! I think the idea being to get it rooted prior to flooding. It was pretty tough to place these plants without them floating away. I am thinking of flooding the tank after they root enough just to hold.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Oh, well that makes sense. I knew there must be a reason...


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## Proteus01 (Mar 12, 2017)

Another option for getting roots to grow is to float plants. That means you can’t get the scape set up for a while. So, perhaps having a tank set aside for plant conversion, as plan-ahead stock for scapes, is how you could jump into the scape with plants ready. 

I also like to put plants in multiple tanks, with some planted down, some floating, etc. that way I have some sense of which way worked best and backups for failure. That doesn’t fit your situation either, I think. 

I’ve not tried DSM as I don’t do high tech (typically hand-in-hand), but it seems to be a good way to get a complex or detailed scape in place right away, without having a stock of ready plants. 

My typical rule/method on browning/yellowing plants at early tank stages is to remove whatever parts are failing. I don’t know if that’s the same for dry, as those plants can’t really have an impact to the whole tank w/o waterflow. Perhaps leaving them there for the base plant to use is the right choice?


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Proteus01 said:


> Another option for getting roots to grow is to float plants. That means you can’t get the scape set up for a while. So, perhaps having a tank set aside for plant conversion, as plan-ahead stock for scapes, is how you could jump into the scape with plants ready.
> 
> I also like to put plants in multiple tanks, with some planted down, some floating, etc. that way I have some sense of which way worked best and backups for failure. That doesn’t fit your situation either, I think.
> 
> ...


Interesting thoughts, thank you!

It sounds like I'm pretty much in uncharted territory here, so I'm going to plug away a bit more with what makes logical sense to me. If it works, it works. If not, it doesn't. Hopefully we can all learn something!

I've at least been able to keep the humidity up around an average of 85% with some tighter plastic wrap seals and closing the vents pumping hot air into the room. I also got a cheap atomizer to essentially "fog" the tank several times a day which I'll control via the Apex in an attempt to keep the humidity high.

One challenge is keeping water at the upper levels of the scape. Even the very fine grained BDBS drains exceptionally fast.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I may have found a hitch in my DS plan.










Above is a graph of air temps in my room where the tank is. Over the last few days, the outside temp has dropped, and it's reflected in the inside temp. While the majority of the house stays at 68 to 70F, this room tends to fluctuate more. I think that's mostly due to having the door closed all the time. This room doesn't come to equilibrium with the rest of the house. I'd leave the door open, but we have two Bengals that just can't be trusted. Every door that doesn't have to stay open stays closed.

In any case, I don't imagine mid 60's is a great temperature for tropical plants. I'll have to watch the situation for the next several days while I contemplate whether I'm going to have to flood the tank much earlier than originally expected.


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## Proteus01 (Mar 12, 2017)

Am I seeing two peaks per day? Is that the light schedule? I was first thinking you could let daytime warmth balance against nighttime lights, but that wouldn’t be effective enough, I think, looking briefly at the chart. 

Perhaps a space heater hooked up to a thermostat? 

Also, maybe enlarge the gap between the lights and the tank to shrink that influence? 

I’m loving the data driven systematic approach.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Proteus01 said:


> Am I seeing two peaks per day? Is that the light schedule? I was first thinking you could let daytime warmth balance against nighttime lights, but that wouldn’t be effective enough, I think, looking briefly at the chart.
> 
> Perhaps a space heater hooked up to a thermostat?
> 
> ...


I was thinking about the two spikes. This is more than likely due to the way our thermostat is set up. Once the temp falls below a threshold (68 or 70), the heat kicks on for two hours. After two hours, it turns off until the minimum threshold is reached again. The two spikes during the day are likely correlated to that nature.

Below you can see the graph zoomed in a bit. I closed the vent in the room on the 18th, and you can see the difference it made. I opened it back up today. 

Opened the room stays a decent temp for the plants. The problem is it makes the humidity take a relative nose dive. It stays in the mid 70's to lower 80's with the vent open. Vent closed it stays around the upper 80's. Though that may be due to the lower temps.


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## nbr1rodeoclown (Feb 6, 2015)

If this is the temp in the room, your tank is probably warmer, closer to lights. I wouldn't worry about it. I've dry started hairgrass in 68 degree rooms without issue.
...and yes you'll have some browning of tissue culture plants as they get established.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

nbr1rodeoclown said:


> If this is the temp in the room, your tank is probably warmer, closer to lights. I wouldn't worry about it. I've dry started hairgrass in 68 degree rooms without issue.
> ...and yes you'll have some browning of tissue culture plants as they get established.


I appreciate the input! Definitely have some browning going on, most especially on the monte carlo.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Looks like we are getting some new leaves on the Monte Carlo, so it seems like it's doing the worst and the best of all the plants at the same time haha.


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## xUma (Jan 24, 2019)

I'd just like to say that, as someone has only been in the planted world for around a year, this amount of info is mind-boggling. I'm glad it's here, and in other threads, though... if someone were talking to me I wouldn't be able to keep up! Great looking setup, I'm excited to see how it turns out!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

xUma said:


> I'd just like to say that, as someone *has only been in the planted world for around a year*, this amount of info is mind-boggling. I'm glad it's here, and in other threads, though... if someone were talking to me I wouldn't be able to keep up! Great looking setup, I'm excited to see how it turns out!


Thank you! But it looks like you would be my senior in the planted tank world! You can definitely keep up. It's just a matter of putting in the time. A genuine passion makes it easy to put in the time.

Anyway, I got a new toy:










I'm hoping this allows me to more accurately measure out small quantities of ferts. It's still a pretty low end balance, but better than my pocket style. I was looking for a used Sartorius or Mettler Toledo, but I could not justify that cost.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Similarly having some melting/burning in my DSM. 2 weeks of rooting and then the spreading takes hold...or so I'm hoping!!!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Jamo33 said:


> Similarly having some melting/burning in my DSM. 2 weeks of rooting and then the spreading takes hold...or so I'm hoping!!!


I'm definitely starting to see growth. Increasing growth every day. Things are going the right direction.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

That's awesome. Cannot say mine is doing what I want. Looks like mold is coming in to spoil the party... might be flooding sooner than expected


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Jamo33 said:


> That's awesome. Cannot say mine is doing what I want. *Looks like mold is coming in to spoil the party*... might be flooding sooner than expected


Yeah, air flow and humidity control is key to suppressing mold.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Current tank status:










The Monte Carlo is definitely showing some dense new growth.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Looking awesome mate!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Things still progressing. Growth has been adequate and increasing. The Utricularia graminifolia is a slow grower, as is the hair grass. The Monte Carlo is really taking off. New growth is dense and lush.

I'm thinking a couple more weeks of root establishment before flooding.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Things still progressing. Growth has been adequate and increasing. The Utricularia graminifolia is a slow grower, as is the hair grass. The Monte Carlo is really taking off. New growth is dense and lush.
> 
> I'm thinking a couple more weeks of root establishment before flooding.


Extremely jealous, but happy for your DSM success thus far!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)




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## FischAutoTechGarten (Jul 11, 2003)

You have the patience of a saint! I'd have such a hard time holding off flooding it. Good on you for following through with a good long rooting period!


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## Hendy8888 (Mar 6, 2008)

This is awsome, would I ever do it? No way! I do appreciate the journey though and thats what it's all about. With what you have done with this dry start, I can't wait to see what you do once it's wet. Great job!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

ODwyerPW said:


> You have the patience of a saint! I'd have such a hard time holding off flooding it. Good on you for following through with a good long rooting period!


Thank you!

I think patience is an absolute must have in fish/plant/coral etc. keeping. Honestly, the whole setup phase is probably my favorite part. Once it's flooded and stocked and all that's left is tweaking ferts, well it probably won't be quite as interesting for me. Delaying that, then, becomes somewhat easy haha.



Hendy8888 said:


> This is awsome, would I ever do it? No way! I do appreciate the journey though and thats what it's all about. With what you have done with this dry start, *I can't wait to see what you do once it's wet.* Great job!


Thanks!

Should be interesting. I have no idea what to expect honestly.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Still plugging along. Growth is slow, but I guess that's to be expected in a soil that contains no nutrients.

Speaking of, to this point I've been spraying down the tank twice a day; once in the morning before work and once when I get home from work (generally 5 am and 4:30-5pm). The morning spray is before the lights come on and the afternoon is just a few hours before they go off. I'm thinking I should be spraying more often and more during the middle of the lighting hours. At least I think that would speed up growth as the nutrients would then be available to the plants during the periods of most intense growth. Not sure how to accomplish that without a misting system, though. I'm not sure I'm ready for that kind of investment for the dry start, so I'll probably keep plugging along with slow growth until I'm completely confident things will stay where they are when flooded. 

In any case, no mold and no plants lost is a win for a first effort in my book. The growth is kind of a bonus haha.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Well, I believe I've gotten as far as I can with the dry start. It certainly worked, but the limitation of not being able to spray nutrient rich water through the day while at work seemed to cause me to hit a wall as far as growth was concerned. If I had a misting system, I could probably keep it going longer. In any case:


















The good news is, the Monte Carlo is as happy as I thought it was:










Instant pearling. Additionally, the system doesn't leak and is so dead silent that I hear the LED fans over everything else. You can stand right next to it and hear nothing. I can't say enough about these pumps.

It's not all good news, though. It seems my tap water is quite low in pH. I figured it would be about 7, but it's closer to 6.5. I don't know that I want the pH to go as low as 5.5 or 5, so I currently have the Apex set to close the solenoid on the CO2 at <6 pH. I'm going to watch it over a few days to see how it fluctuates. The good news is that the Seiryu should help bump it up. I guess I could add a cup of aragonite to the sump too if necessary.

Looking at the tank now, it's like an oxygen bubble factory 

Bump: Next steps are to let the tank run a few days with no fertilization. I'm sure there are a lot of left over nutrients that are now working their way into solution. Once I believe they are all distributed, I'm going to grab a water sample and send it to the lab for analysis to know what my starting point is. Then go another few days without fertilizing, collect another sample and have it analyzed to help understand current consumption. From there I'll mix the ferts and start dosing.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Wow. Yep this is awesome, I love the persistence and self control. 
Now that you have flooded however, will you not want to crank that co2? As the gas exchange is not as easy for the plants anymore, I thought cranking co2 was a technique to allow the plants to transition smoothly into their submerged forms. Then you can back it off to a normal level.

Side note: Read an interesting article on utricularia graminifolia in an aquscaping magazine. Do you plan to feed the carpet with micro organisms, infusoria? I found it interesting as well that the writer tested the plant in numerous conditions, the best outcome coming from a bog like setup, next to no nutrients but low ph and use of peat. 

Just an interesting read.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Well, I believe I've gotten as far as I can with the dry start. It certainly worked, but the limitation of not being able to spray nutrient rich water through the day while at work seemed to cause me to hit a wall as far as growth was concerned. If I had a misting system, I could probably keep it going longer. In any case:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I wouldn’t worry too much about low pH. You should let a cup of your tank water sit out for 2 days to off gas any CO2 then measure the pH. Most here try to achieve anywhere between a 1-1.5 pH drop from their off gassed pH measurement right around when lights come on and try to maintain that until just before lights go off. Of course when fish are in you will want to start lower and slowly increase it while watching your fish to make sure you don’t gas them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Jamo33 said:


> Wow. Yep this is awesome, I love the persistence and self control.
> Now that you have flooded however, will you not want to crank that co2? As the gas exchange is not as easy for the plants anymore, I thought cranking co2 was a technique to allow the plants to transition smoothly into their submerged forms. Then you can back it off to a normal level.
> 
> Side note: Read an interesting article on utricularia graminifolia in an aquscaping magazine. Do you plan to feed the carpet with micro organisms, infusoria? I found it interesting as well that the writer tested the plant in numerous conditions, the best outcome coming from a bog like setup, next to no nutrients but low ph and use of peat.
> ...


I'm sure critters will hitchhike in with the fish I eventually get, but I am considering feeding the graminifolia, yes. As for cranking the CO2, I didn't want to go too crazy too fast and bottom out pH too low. I did get a solid 1 point drop today, though, despite something going wrong with the needle valve setting in the middle of the day.



vvDO said:


> I wouldn’t worry too much about low pH. You should let a cup of your tank water sit out for 2 days to off gas any CO2 then measure the pH. Most here try to achieve anywhere between a 1-1.5 pH drop from their off gassed pH measurement right around when lights come on and try to maintain that until just before lights go off. Of course when fish are in you will want to start lower and slowly increase it while watching your fish to make sure you don’t gas them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I did manage to drop the pH about 1 point. Doesn't seem to be having an adverse effect.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I also have to say I'm obsessed with how silent this tank is. I'm sitting in bed watching the oxygen bubble up from the plants like snow falling upward.

I am a little annoyed by the cloudiness of the water. I've read carbon is generally a no no in planted tanks, but the stuff does an incredible job at keeping water crystal clear, which is a requirement of mine. Any thoughts? I'm seriously considering adding some to the reactor.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Never used carbon as I read about its ability to strip ferts and become pre saturated. However, this may have been absolute nonsense.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Jamo33 said:


> Never used carbon as I read about its ability to strip ferts and become pre saturated. However, this may have been absolute nonsense.


I read the same thing, but then wondered why that was never the case in my reef tanks. Carbon is a hell of a lot cheaper than GFO and if it could strip phosphate or nitrate I imagine reefers everywhere would be loading reactors with it and ditching things like GFO or biopellets.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

From what I've read, replenishing rates are quick. Carbon getting used up fast and no longer being of any benefit. Maybe needs some more investigation.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> I read the same thing, but then wondered why that was never the case in my reef tanks. Carbon is a hell of a lot cheaper than GFO and if it could strip phosphate or nitrate I imagine reefers everywhere would be loading reactors with it and ditching things like GFO or biopellets.




I had some cloudiness from BDBS and I cleared it up by adding poly-fil to my filter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

vvDO said:


> I had some cloudiness from BDBS and I cleared it up by adding poly-fil to my filter.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll give that a try, thanks!


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## Dom1042 (Nov 14, 2018)

Wow! Just red all the thread and I must say this is an impressive build. So much efforts and dedication! Maybe I'm an unassumed reefer, but my favorite part is your sump and plumbing! I will have a 40 breeder soon and planning to close my 15G and 30G to make some space and use the 30G as a sump. The use of magnet is ingenious, I think I'll do it too! I have some small questions, maybe I just missed the information in the past posts :
1. If your light inside your tank for your sump is wired to the switch, do you use a timer or you just keep it on all the time? 
2. What kind of paint did you use for the glass that goes inside the tank? 

As I'm kind of a noob on this forum (last time I was on a forum was like 2005?), I don't know how to subscribe, but I'll check your thread! Keep it up!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Dom1042 said:


> Wow! Just red all the thread and I must say this is an impressive build. So much efforts and dedication! Maybe I'm an unassumed reefer, but my favorite part is your sump and plumbing! I will have a 40 breeder soon and planning to close my 15G and 30G to make some space and use the 30G as a sump. The use of magnet is ingenious, I think I'll do it too! I have some small questions, maybe I just missed the information in the past posts :
> 1. If your light inside your tank for your sump is wired to the switch, do you use a timer or you just keep it on all the time?
> 2. What kind of paint did you use for the glass that goes inside the tank?
> 
> As I'm kind of a noob on this forum (last time I was on a forum was like 2005?), I don't know how to subscribe, but I'll check your thread! Keep it up!


Thank you for the kind words.

The lights are wired to the switch, and the switch wired to a plug. I just plugged the switch into the wall and turn the lights on and off as necessary with the switch. I considered doing something like a contact sensor so the light comes on every time a cabinet panel is opened, but never got that far.

The paint on the overflow is Krylon Fusion spray paint. I've used it in many reef builds in the past and have never had an issue with it, outside of turbo snails being able to chew it off...

Shoutout to @vvDO. The poly-fil worked like a charm. Still not crystal clear, but much clearer than it was.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Double post.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Working on getting the pH drop where I want it. Here is a graph of pH over the last few days. As you can see, day 1 things were balancing out. I think I had the output pressure of the regulator a bit low and I didn't have the bubble count I thought I did. Day 2 I got a decent pH drop, but the pH started to climb as the plants woke up and started doing their thing. Though the max pH on the morning of day 2 bumped up which was nice to see. Day three and the max pH jumped again, close to 7. I increased the bubble count and got almost a 1 point pH drop and held it. that was a nice result to see. I'd like to be closer to that 1.5 point drop range, but knowing I can hold a 1 point drop is nice. Interestingly it looks like the plants start to shut down around 5 pm, three hours before lights out. You can see the pH drop again before the solenoid shuts the tank down. I guess that's why it's recommended to have the CO2 shut off a couple hours before lights out. I'll be interested to see how much higher the pH climbs. Water samples are going out tomorrow, so I don't plan to do any water changes until I get results to know what my starting point is.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I managed to get the 1.5 point pH drop today! Held quite nicely for pretty much the entire day too. The plants are definitely happier at a 1.5 point drop than a 1 point drop. The tank is absolutely littered with O2 bubbles.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> I managed to get the 1.5 point pH drop today! Held quite nicely for pretty much the entire day too. The plants are definitely happier at a 1.5 point drop than a 1 point drop. The tank is absolutely littered with O2 bubbles.




Nice... when you decide to get fish, make sure you are dropping pH by 1.5 compared to your off gassed pH measurement (let your tank water sit out for at least 24 hours). Any pre-existing CO2 in the water and you’ll start with a lower than expected pH.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

vvDO said:


> Nice... when you decide to get fish, make sure you are dropping pH by 1.5 compared to your off gassed pH measurement (let your tank water sit out for at least 24 hours). Any pre-existing CO2 in the water and you’ll start with a lower than expected pH.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Definitely, thanks!

So, I'm guessing I have a leak in my system somewhere as my 5 lb. CO2 tank is empty after one week. Ugh. I doubt it's before the solenoid as I had the tank sitting for months with the reg on without the tank emptying, so at least that narrows things down a bit. I wanted to change the needle valve anyway, so it gives me that opportunity at least.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I swapped the CO2 tank last night and I think I fixed the leak, but oddly the safety valve on my regulator activated this morning. I have no idea why as it was fine all night, and the inlet pressure is well within the 3000 psi max of the reg. Now I have to figure out if I can swap the safety valve or if I have to swap the regulator.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Swapped the regulator and all is well again. Now it's just a waiting game for the lab results so I can start dosing. The Monte Carlo is definitely not handling the transition to submersion real well. Everything else looks tremendous. I'm actually hoping the Monte Carlo die off will kick off the cycle.

My initial low pH concerns are subsiding as I'm sure the Seiryu is beginning to help bump it up. I'm curious how high it will go now. It will be really interesting to see once the weekly water changes kick in how the pH will be affected.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

View from my bed:










A quick question for @Greggz: I know there isn't an easy answer to this question, but how long would I safely be able to wait before dosing ferts without too adversely affecting the plants? I should have test results in the next couple days from the lab, but would also like to send out a second sample to get current plant fertilizer usage. Lab turnaround time is a week, so best case scenario I have those results mid next week. That would put me at a couple weeks since flooding before dosing or changing any water. Things seem good right now, though the Monte Carlo just isn't happy. Hair grass is definitely loving life.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

TheUnseenHand said:


> A quick question for @Greggz: I know there isn't an easy answer to this question, but how long would I safely be able to wait before dosing ferts without too adversely affecting the plants? I should have test results in the next couple days from the lab, but would also like to send out a second sample to get current plant fertilizer usage.


First of all, the tank is really looking great. I like the whole vibe you are creating there.

I really don't have any experience with the dry start method, other than what I have read. But if I were to speculate, I would say your plants are transitioning now, and that can be a tricky period. With good light and CO2, they should be hungry for ferts, and it should help them get a good start. 

If it were me, I would start dosing something. 

In the bigger picture, how are you going to use the lab numbers? Are you planning to base your dosing on plant uptake? If so, how so? Just curious what you have in mind.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> View from my bed:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Monte Carlo takes on a completely different form submerged vs emersed grown, mainly leaf size is much smaller submerged. 

Also did you ever get any PAR readings?


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Greggz said:


> First of all, the tank is really looking great. I like the whole vibe you are creating there.
> 
> I really don't have any experience with the dry start method, other than what I have read. But if I were to speculate, I would say your plants are transitioning now, and that can be a tricky period. With good light and CO2, they should be hungry for ferts, and it should help them get a good start.
> 
> ...


Thank you!

The plan is to know with a higher accuracy than hobby level kits can provide the current parameter levels of the tank and my tap water to know how much to dose. Not necessarily dosing per plant uptake. I'm thinking of a variant of EI with smaller water changes. Just was curious what the uptake was to calculate the true starting point. The sample I sent to the lab is a week old now. Those results won't reflect the true current state of the tank. If I know the level at two points and how much it changed, I can calculate an uptake per day and get a good estimate of actual current tank levels. 



vvDO said:


> Monte Carlo takes on a completely different form submerged vs emersed grown, mainly leaf size is much smaller submerged.
> 
> Also did you ever get any PAR readings?


I did, but I can't figure out how to view the results I captured with the Seneye. I go to the site and it says it will display the graphs when the unit is registered. However, the unit IS registered. If I try to go to the registration page I'm just redirected to my account. It's quite frustrating.

Anyway, the PAR is crazy high under the middle of this light. I have it cranked right now and haven't changed it as things seem happy. Below is about what it is from memory. It would be nice to actually see the graphs...










I suspect the PAR on the sides is higher than it was reading. I know the Seneye kinda falls apart at wide angles.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Actually, I was wrong about those readings. I just checked and it's closer to 375 at the middle bottom and 430 at the top. Really cranking out the light.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Very nice - regarding the pH - my pH doesn't drop very much over night compared to my actual off- gassed pH. (I take some water out and let it sit for a few days)

IMO what you're seeing on that graph where your highest pH shows is one of two things - Water level decreasing over the course of the week - more agitation = more off gassing over night. 
Or you injected less co2 the day before so at night the pH got higher.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Chlorophile said:


> Very nice - regarding the pH - my pH doesn't drop very much over night compared to my actual off- gassed pH. (I take some water out and let it sit for a few days)
> 
> IMO what you're seeing on that graph where your highest pH shows is one of two things - Water level decreasing over the course of the week - more agitation = more off gassing over night.
> Or you injected less co2 the day before so at night the pH got higher.


Thanks for the input!

The water level is controlled via an auto topoff. The level in the final sump chamber doesn't fluctuate much more than a half inch, and that section holds probably around a gallon of water. I started with straight treated tap water as our city water is immaculate. Should know exactly how immaculate in the next couple days when the test results come back. The pH of that water is actually a bit low. I tested it over the course of a few days and it settled around 6.8 if I remember correctly. That said, the topoff water is RO/DI, so it should in effect have 0 buffering capacity and thus not impact the pH of the tank at all. So thinking about this, I suppose it could be the combined effect of concentrating the city water while replacing it with water that has no buffering capacity. Then again, I'm thinking our city water has little buffering capacity to begin with. I'll have to revisit my understanding of pH. All that said, the surface agitation should remain quite constant.

As for injecting less CO2, there is no doubt I have more work to do on getting that consistent. even with a sweet Swagelok needle valve, I can't quite seem to hold the exact same BPS from day to day.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Actually, I was wrong about those readings. I just checked and it's closer to 375 at the middle bottom and 430 at the top. Really cranking out the light.


This should be VERY interesting!


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## codetiger (Feb 15, 2019)

Wow, super hi-tech fish tank. Thanks for the level of details you have shared.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> I suspect the PAR on the sides is higher than it was reading. I know the Seneye kinda falls apart at wide angles.




I have the same light (older 16” version) over the same size tank and the edges are the same. Very dim. They LEDs have tight optics which focuses the beam pretty much straight down. Since the Emitters are all clustered together, you get super high PAR dead center and not much just a few inches away from the edge of the light. I tested with an Apogee PAR meter, so it seems the Seneye is not very far off. I raised my light almost about 20 inches above the tank rim and still getting high PAR center with some improvement on the sides. I am considering changing some of the optics so I can get a more even spread.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

vvDO said:


> I have the same light (older 16” version) over the same size tank and the edges are the same. Very dim. They LEDs have tight optics which focuses the beam pretty much straight down. Since the Emitters are all clustered together, you get super high PAR dead center and not much just a few inches away from the edge of the light. I tested with an Apogee PAR meter, so it seems the Seneye is not very far off. I raised my light almost about 20 inches above the tank rim and still getting high PAR center with some improvement on the sides. I am considering changing some of the optics so I can get a more even spread.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I asked them several times if they could put wider optics on it. Even at an upcharge. Never got a response. Almost made me consider not getting the light, though I am glad I did. Regardless, I hope 80-100 PAR in the lower corners is not a limiting factor. I can only realistically raise the light a few more inches.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> I asked them several times if they could put wider optics on it. Even at an upcharge. Never got a response. Almost made me consider not getting the light, though I am glad I did. Regardless, I hope 80-100 PAR in the lower corners is not a limiting factor. I can only realistically raise the light a few more inches.




Oh you can go higher...
Not pretty, I know... 
I googled a bit and it seems removing the optics on cool white and warm white will give 120 deg spread, so I may remove some of the optics so I can take the ugly risers off. I think the colored LEDs already have 120 deg optics.











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

vvDO said:


> Oh you can go higher...
> Not pretty, I know...
> I googled a bit and it seems removing the optics on cool white and warm white will give 120 deg spread, so I may remove some of the optics so I can take the ugly risers off. I think the colored LEDs already have 120 deg optics.
> 
> ...


Oh, I know I can physically move the light significantly higher without killing the PAR. From where the light is hung, I practically can't go much higher. There is a shelf I'd have to take down.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I'm becoming a pro at swapping out CO2 tanks. A couple weeks into this and I've been through 2 tanks. First tank I feel like I had a leak somewhere in the system. The second tank was the result of a failed regulator tripping the relief valve. Hopefully tank 3 is a charm. I replaced the reg and tightened up the system. I don't believe I have any more leaks. Getting better at dialing in the bubble count and pH drop too.

Should have the lab results tomorrow. I see they started testing the sample on Friday, but did not complete all the testing.

I do have a little tiny bit of some white, fungus looking growth in very isolated spots on the graminfolia. Doesn't seem to be affecting anything, though.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Unseen...I feel like a back up tank may be required for you as your equipment betrays you! 
I kid, but man you've been unfortunate. 
Teaches good skills on system checking however!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Jamo33 said:


> Unseen...I feel like a back up tank may be required for you as your equipment betrays you!
> I kid, but man you've been unfortunate.
> Teaches good skills on system checking however!


You kid, but I did buy a backup tank! If there is one thing I've learned from keeping reef tanks, it's to always have backup everything on hand. I have the backup CO2 tank, 2 backup regulators, a backup bubble counter, backup pumps, etc. The only things I don't have right now is a backup light and a backup doser. I'll probably get a backup doser, but with lights I feel like LED technology changes so fast that I'd rather just order another light and have it rush delivered if necessary than have a backup of the same thing.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I got bored and messed with the tank snapshot Excel sheets. Hope you don't mind the liberties I took @Greggz 

I may take some time and actually revamp these completely. All the colors kinda hurt my eyes, and I think there is some good opportunity here to make the sheet even more powerful:


















I also set up a macro to pull the daily temp and pH logs from the Apex and import them into Excel. I graphed the pH rise from the time the CO2 shuts off and set a best fit line to find the theoretical max pH based on the increase curve. This is one of those times I realize what a nerd I am...


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Glad to see the spreadsheet being put to good use, and always open to expanding or making it better.

Curious as to what the plans are for the lower portion? Accumulation? 

If so, I just uploaded the latest version of my accumulation calculator up the drive. 

looking forward to seeing what else you come up with.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Mate...you're over prepared. But I guess you are doing this from experience! Good work, truly, the commitment is unquestionable.


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## MSaxen (Mar 5, 2019)

Hi @TheUnseenHand,

New to planted tanks and really appreciate you taking the time to document your new, and amazing, setup. I was looking at your post about the PAR values in the various parts of the tank, and have a question. Would those values be greatly reduced after adding water to the tank? Trying to learn anything I can about lighting, and what I have seen, "high lighting" is around 100 PAR at the soil level in the middle of the tank, with "low lighting" being around 30 PAR in the same spot. Am I on the right track with those levels, or do I need to find a better source of info? Thanks again. Can't wait to see your tank continue to develop. 

Matt


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Greggz said:


> Glad to see the spreadsheet being put to good use, and always open to expanding or making it better.
> 
> Curious as to what the plans are for the lower portion? Accumulation?
> 
> ...


I made it so that now that I know where I currently stand and what my tap water contributes, I can figure out exactly how much to dose to reach my targets:




























As expected, our tap water is ludicrously clean.



Jamo33 said:


> Mate...*you're over prepared.* But I guess you are doing this from experience! Good work, truly, the commitment is unquestionable.


No such thing :grin2:


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Also, yes, I realize those calculations above are incredibly wrong. Missed a (1-%water change) in there. It has been fixed. Gotta call me out on my fuzzy math!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Also, yes, I realize those calculations above are incredibly wrong. Missed a (1-%water change) in there. It has been fixed. Gotta call me out on my fuzzy math!


Well still not so sure.

Those accumulation numbers for NO3 look like post water change numbers, and will be higher after dosing. At 12 ppm NO3 dosing at 35% water change, your max accumulation (no fish load/plant uptake) should be about 34 ppm.

At least that is what I come up with???


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Greggz said:


> Well still not so sure.
> 
> Those accumulation numbers for NO3 look like post water change numbers, and will be higher after dosing. At 12 ppm NO3 dosing at 35% water change, your max accumulation (no fish load/plant uptake) should be about 34 ppm.
> 
> At least that is what I come up with???


Hmmm, let me look at the Excel sheet a while. Might be missing parentheses somewhere or something.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Hmmm, let me look at the Excel sheet a while. Might be missing parentheses somewhere or something.


Here's what I come up with..............................................










Oops posted wrong pic, correct one up now!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Greggz said:


> Here's what I come up with..............................................












Glad to see my equations weren't wrong (surprisingly), but you are correct. Those were post water change numbers, not true accumulation numbers. They have been added. Looks like I'll have to up the water changes to 50%. No biggie on such a small tank. I appreciate the call out!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Some graminifolia went rogue:


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

This is the best representation of the color of this _Alternanthera reineckii_ 'Mini'










It is very vibrant red/pink on the bottom of the leaves, but the tops are a little more brown. This picture also showcases the algae that has begun to form on the glass since fertilizing began.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Unseen, my AR is looking the exact same right now. Please let me know what you do to get them presenting better colors. I am having an algae outbreak right now, so I need to investigate my phosphates, worried it's being depleted too fast. 
You're doing great mate! I love this tank


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## nbr1rodeoclown (Feb 6, 2015)

This may be a trick you already know, but if not; for others info...

For co2 leaks you can put a bit of dish soap in a shot of water and stir it up until it foams. Then use an eye dropper to drip small amounts onto all of the threaded fitting parts. even if you have a minuscule leak, the soap will start blowing bubbles, and you can target and tighten.

They sell this commercially under the name Snoop, but soapy water works just as well.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

nbr1rodeoclown said:


> This may be a trick you already know, but if not; for others info...
> 
> For co2 leaks you can put a bit of dish soap in a shot of water and stir it up until it foams. Then use an eye dropper to drip small amounts onto all of the threaded fitting parts. even if you have a minuscule leak, the soap will start blowing bubbles, and you can target and tighten.
> 
> They sell this commercially under the name Snoop, but soapy water works just as well.


Thank you!

Yes, I did use this technique one the first CO2 tank. While I wasn't able to pinpoint a leak, I have to believe the post body was leaking somewhere. Since tightening everything up, it seems to be going strong. If I could just dial in my BBS, I'd be golden.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

MSaxen said:


> Hi @TheUnseenHand,
> 
> New to planted tanks and really appreciate you taking the time to document your new, and amazing, setup. I was looking at your post about the PAR values in the various parts of the tank, and have a question. *Would those values be greatly reduced after adding water to the tank?* Trying to learn anything I can about lighting, and what I have seen, "high lighting" is around 100 PAR at the soil level in the middle of the tank, with "low lighting" being around 30 PAR in the same spot. Am I on the right track with those levels, or do I need to find a better source of info? Thanks again. Can't wait to see your tank continue to develop.
> 
> Matt


I missed this post and I apologize!

Those values are with water in the tank. Your question is interesting and I don't think it has an easy answer. If I had to give one I'd say "It depends". I think in general the water adds a variable that could make the readings from a PAR meter higher or lower. Crystal clear water with a turbulent surface may show some reflection/refraction properties that could focus the light over the sensor and increase PAR. That actually seemed to be the case in my tank. Water filled with tannins would almost certainly block light from reaching the sensor resulting in much lower PAR.

Now I'm exceptionally new to this hobby. I don't have any of my own data to explain what light levels are "best". It will certainly vary by species. I do believe many plants in this hobby are found naturally in shallow waters with PAR levels way, way higher than 100 or 200. more on the order of 500-2000. I don't believe there is such a thing as "too high PAR" when it comes to hobby level lighting. That said, a glass box of water is not nature, and shouldn't be treated as such. You will NEVER achieve the level of stability the sun has over millions of years, nor will you achieve the stability of a lake or river that contains millions of gallons of water. What we can rely on is the experience of those who have been doing this a lot longer than us, and use that experience to get us off on the right foot. What seems to be a consensus is that, with 250+ PAR, you pretty much have no plant limitations. Lower and you may start limiting your options. At that point you are going to want to research each plant species to understand it's PAR requirement. That is something you should do regardless, but it becomes even more important as your light levels decrease.

Hopefully that helped some! I'm still learning myself, so take all that with a grain of salt.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Looking for opinions.

There is quite a bit of monte carlo that didn't make it through the transition to submerged. It is brown and decaying, but it's just leaves and the plant itself is still alive and sending out tons of new, healthy leaves. I can't remove the dead leaves without uprooting the existing, living plant. Is there a critter I could add to take care of this? Not that it's necessarily hurting anything, it just looks ugly.

Additionally, I do have algae starting. No surprise, but I don't really want to add snails. What would be your recommendation for an algae eater? A requirement for this fish is that it MUST be small. Full grown no more than 2 inches.I want the Rasboras to be the focal point.

Thanks!


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Looking for opinions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Snails will take care of any dying leaves. Merite snails will not reproduce in freshwater, so you won’t have a big snail problem afterwards. Since your water is very acidic though, their shells may not last long. Shrimp can also eat away at it, amano or RCS.

Have you tried running a gravel vac over the MC and try sucking up whatever is loose? I usually brush the end of the tube along the leaves and remove any collected detritus. Helps keep algae from growing as well. If it’s well rooted, then it should work without uprooting any plants. BDBS is heavy enough that it won’t get sucked up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I may try a couple Amanos. I am worried the pH dips a bit too low for snails.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I had some super cloudy water today. Perhaps a bacterial bloom of some sort? It didn't look green, just cloudy. Plants seemed happy, though the algae is increasing it's aggressiveness. Did a 50% water change and have also reduced the photoperiod by 3 hours which needed to be done anyway. Realistically I could reduce it by another hour or two from here, but we will see how this goes. The bloom of whatever it is hopefully makes the graminifolia happy at least.

I have a business trip that will have me out of town until Thursday night, so it will be interesting to see what the tank looks like when I get back.


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## jeffish (Feb 22, 2019)

I am new to the planted tank world...but I must say, wow. Just wow - amazing job. I just finished reading this entire thread and hats off to you!! I'm excited to follow the journey & hope for the best with your plants while you're away.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

A lot of algae when I got back. It's exceptionally easy to brush off, but annoying to look at. Not really as bad as I thought it might be at least. Plants seem much better rooted, and I'm able to brush the algae off the plants without uprooting them.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

TheUnseenHand said:


> A lot of algae when I got back. It's exceptionally easy to brush off, but annoying to look at. Not really as bad as I thought it might be at least. Plants seem much better rooted, and I'm able to brush the algae off the plants without uprooting them.


Is the algae green? Then it's GDA.

Not one the worst, as it wipes off easily. And do wipe it off where you can. The leaves will appreciate it, and have a better chance to recover. 

I know you won't like to hear this, but a bit lower light might clear it up quickly. Not low light, just a bit less.

When folks thinks about balance, light is included in that equation, and sometimes needs to be adjusted in relation to everything else.

Just a thought.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Greggz said:


> Is the algae green? Then it's GDA.
> 
> Not one the worst, as it wipes off easily. And do wipe it off where you can. The leaves will appreciate it, and have a better chance to recover.
> 
> ...


You're definitely correct. I kinda figured this would happen, but I guess had to see it to believe it haha. I reduced the photoperiod several hours, next step is to bump down peak intensity.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Couldn't help myself, placed an order for _Ludwigia pantanal_. Yeah, I will have to trim the **** out of it (if it thrives), but it's just beautiful looking. I had to have it. Crossing my fingers that it does well in my tank.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Maintenance/water change day:










Water is still a bit cloudy. Good news is the AR Mini is turning fully pink:










Don't ask where the Ludwigia is going. I have no clue.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I'm also thinking about adding fish in the next few weeks. As mentioned, I definitely want Galaxy rasboras. I was also thinking of some neons. How many of each could I get away with? I'm thinking 5 or 6 rasboras.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Loving the tank.
That AR growth has me envious. I am definitely doing something wrong...
Honestly very well done mate this is tops.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Jamo33 said:


> Loving the tank.
> That AR growth has me envious. I am definitely doing something wrong...
> Honestly very well done mate this is tops.


Thanks! I still feel I'm kind of stumbling along a bit. Part of the reason I haven't got fish yet is because I just don't think I can't handle that variable yet.

I had taken the LED down to 60% from 100%. It definitely helped control the algae. I want better coverage across the tank, so today I raised the light as high as possible and bumped the intensity to 80%. I'm probably going to put the Ludwigia to the side with hopes that it grows up and covers the overflow, and wanted to make sure I had sufficient PAR over there. I haven't had a chance to measure the PAR since the change, though.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

jeffish said:


> I am new to the planted tank world...but I must say, wow. Just wow - amazing job. I just finished reading this entire thread and hats off to you!! I'm excited to follow the journey & hope for the best with your plants while you're away.


Thanks! Hopefully others can learn along with me, and get some ideas for their tanks going forward!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Ignoring the remnants of GDA, this AR spews bubbles like there is no tomorrow. I feel like I could bottle enough O2 to survive in space on if I could capture it. Actually, today the tank is displaying some of the most aggressive pearling I've ever seen from it.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Couldn't help myself, placed an order for _Ludwigia pantanal_. Yeah, I will have to trim the **** out of it (if it thrives), but it's just beautiful looking. I had to have it. Crossing my fingers that it does well in my tank.


Hey I missed this tidbit. 

You know, when I started out I avoided plants that were thought of as "difficult". Then I ordered some Pantanal. It did great. So started out buying more "difficult" plants. Guess what, they did great too. At the same time some of the "easy" ones I could not grow well at all.

The point is you never know until you try. 

One tip is that Pantanal is a more physically delicate plant. So handle it gently as it's not as tough as some other stems. 

Good luck with it and I look forward to seeing how it goes.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Greggz said:


> Hey I missed this tidbit.
> 
> You know, when I started out I avoided plants that were thought of as "difficult". Then I ordered some Pantanal. It did great. So started out buying more "difficult" plants. Guess what, they did great too. At the same time some of the "easy" ones I could not grow well at all.
> 
> ...


Me too. Those sharp eyed among us may have noticed the paint is peeling off the over flow. This is the first time this has ever happened with Krylon Fusion for me. I'm hoping this plant will help hide the overflow.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Me too. Those sharp eyed among us may have noticed the paint is peeling off the over flow. This is the first time this has ever happened with Krylon Fusion for me. I'm hoping this plant will help hide the overflow.


Too late for the overflow, but I have had better success with Plasti Dip. Krylon Fusion always peeled for me. Plasti Dip has stayed better looking longer.


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## fart_storm (Mar 18, 2019)

Awesome tank, enjoyed the thread!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Greggz said:


> Too late for the overflow, but I have had better success with Plasti Dip. Krylon Fusion always peeled for me. Plasti Dip has stayed better looking longer.


I'm thinking now of using dark window tint and black fabric mesh to help hide it. Hopefully, though, the Ludwigia just grows up in front of it.

Bump:


fart_storm said:


> Awesome tank, enjoyed the thread!


Thanks! Interesting user name btw...


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Perhaps next time you could investigate some black glass? I know people say acrylic doesn't adhere to glass as well or something, but I'm certain it's better than painting and struggling. 
I love the UG mounds. That's going to look stella when it's grown in!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Jamo33 said:


> Perhaps next time you could investigate some black glass? I know people say acrylic doesn't adhere to glass as well or something, but I'm certain it's better than painting and struggling.
> I love the UG mounds. That's going to look stella when it's grown in!


My local glass shop doesn't carry black glass . I had asked about it, but all they was a smoke grey. In retrospect, that would have been a better choice. Oh well.

Anyway, the Ludwigia is here! I'm a bit annoyed as I ordered the thermal bag and heat pack, and they just didn't send it. Plants look OK. They are even pearling, but time will tell I suppose.


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## Ventchur (Apr 29, 2018)

Awesome build you've got there, looks like someone has owned a reef tank in the past.. 

You're going to have a meadow of UG real soon, such a cool carpeting plant that isn't used very often. I gotta try it next scape.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Ventchur said:


> Awesome build you've got there, looks like someone has owned a *reef tank in the past*..
> 
> You're going to have a meadow of UG real soon, such a cool carpeting plant that isn't used very often. I gotta try it next scape.


Several, yes. It's always easy to pick us out :grin2:

I'm definitely seeing the UG getting closer to a carpet. It's really doing well. It has a crazy shallow root system, so I have to be careful during water changes. I've pulled up a couple mounds. But a large chunk of it in the back has really grown together nicely. It's really cool stuff.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Ludwigia perked up and seems happy:










Still a bit annoyed that I payed extra for a thermal bag and heat pack, but didn't get it.


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## tredford (Jun 29, 2018)

Tank's looking pretty awesome! I think your hardscape really gives a good sense of depth/scale. Excited to see the Ludwigia fill in a little bit more.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

The tops of the Ludwigia are turning a nice bright red:


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Ludwigia wall:


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## tater12 (Mar 8, 2019)

Wow thats some fast growth lol


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

tater12 said:


> Wow thats some fast growth lol


It does seem pretty happy.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Looking good..................now go get your scissors sharpened!:wink2: You are going to need them.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Greggz said:


> Looking good..................now go get your scissors sharpened!:wink2: *You are going to need them.*


I made this decision consciously and will accept full responsibility :grin2:


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## Blacktetra (Mar 19, 2015)

I know it hasn't been all that long yet, but do you have anything you wish you'd built differently? Aside from the difficulty of finding black glass.
For example, I was thinking I'd try putting the valve assemblies on the overflow system underneath, farther down the overflow pipes. They seem like they'd be a bit hard to reach if I ever wanted to, unless I could easily reach over and around to the far side of the tank.

I'd imagine with the way this overflow drain is built, it wouldn't just be silent, it would off-gas very little CO2 compared to a typical overflow which splashes all around inside the drain pipe, mixing with air as it goes.


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## frogmanjared (Feb 21, 2008)

I could stare at this tank all day!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Blacktetra said:


> I know it hasn't been all that long yet, *but do you have anything you wish you'd built differently*? Aside from the difficulty of finding black glass.
> For example, I was thinking I'd try putting the valve assemblies on the overflow system underneath, farther down the overflow pipes. They seem like they'd be a bit hard to reach if I ever wanted to, unless I could easily reach over and around to the far side of the tank.
> 
> I'd imagine with the way this overflow drain is built, it wouldn't just be silent, it would off-gas very little CO2 compared to a typical overflow which splashes all around inside the drain pipe, mixing with air as it goes.


I should have gone with the smoke glass, or found a shop that did have black glass.

As far as the gate valves, there is plenty enough room behind the tank to easily reach these. That said, you want to be strategic about which side you put them on if, for instance, the tank is going in a corner. The issue with putting the valves under the tank is twofold:

1. It requires extra unions closer to the top of the overflow should you want to take the tank off the stand. Additionally, you now have no valve to close to prevent splashing water from spilling on the floor if you move the tank off the stand. This is admittedly minor as very little water should be left in the overflow when the pump is turned off.

2. More importantly, if you put the valves under the stand, you can't see how the water in the overflow is reacting as you adjust the valves. Dialing in the proper valve openness becomes a 2 person job, which is a bigger hassle than you might think. 

This style drain is not ideal if you want your tank flush against a wall. That said, the space you need between the tank and the wall does not push the tank so far out that it becomes obstructive unless you have a huge tank and need 2" drains or something. I know I will never own a tank that big... If you put unions on either side of the gate valves you can easily angle the valves such that they take up less space behind the tank as well. If you don't use True Union valves, I highly recommend using PVC unions on either side so the valve is reusable.

I should have also spent more time on the hardscape. I honestly feel like I could have gotten a lot more out of it. That said, engineers tend not to have the most artistic eyes.


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

One amazing looking setup, under the stand looks like the old overclocking with water cooling crazyness. Nicely setup.


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## Blacktetra (Mar 19, 2015)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Blacktetra said:
> 
> 
> > I know it hasn't been all that long yet, *but do you have anything you wish you'd built differently*? Aside from the difficulty of finding black glass.
> ...


Thank you for that explanation, I enjoy seeing all the purposes behind good design. It's amazing how helpful good design is.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Blacktetra said:


> *Thank you for that explanation*, I enjoy seeing all the purposes behind good design. It's amazing how helpful good design is.


Anytime!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I think by early or mid next week the Ludwigia will be at the waters surface. This stuff grows crazy fast. I wish I had a second tank to put some in.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> I think by early or mid next week the Ludwigia will be at the waters surface. This stuff grows crazy fast. I wish I had a second tank to put some in.




More like by tomorrow [emoji38] 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

vvDO said:


> More like by tomorrow [emoji38]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hit the waters surface late yesterday...

The tops are becoming less red. While growth is still fast the red color on both the AR and the Ludwigia seems to come and go. Some days it's bright pink/red, others it's a bit muted or dull. Could this indicate a limiting nutrient? My guess is that when dosed, whatever the nutrient is, the colors become more vibrant. But the nutrient is used up quickly and the colors fade until it is dosed again. Could this be the case, or am I off base here?


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)




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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Tops. 
This tank has really flourished. Well done mate!


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## tredford (Jun 29, 2018)

Wow, that's some fantastic growth! great colours so far, too.


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## shawnsj (Apr 10, 2019)

Fabulous, well done.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk


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## Blacktetra (Mar 19, 2015)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Hit the waters surface late yesterday...
> 
> The tops are becoming less red. While growth is still fast the red color on both the AR and the Ludwigia seems to come and go. Some days it's bright pink/red, others it's a bit muted or dull. Could this indicate a limiting nutrient? My guess is that when dosed, whatever the nutrient is, the colors become more vibrant. But the nutrient is used up quickly and the colors fade until it is dosed again. Could this be the case, or am I off base here?



It could be the opposite actually! It's very fascinating what causes red coloration in plants.
I highly recommend reading Dennis' article on it here:


https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/newsletter_2ozn.html


It could be that when your nitrate levels are getting low, the plants are getting more red.
But it could also be a bit of a lack of iron? I'm not sure that would be likely though. People's advice has generally been "want more red, need more iron" but frankly that's just not been very accurate.
I'm not sure if you posted your dosing regimen, have you? I'm sure someone like @Greggz could examine your ferts and give some pointers.
But I highly recommend the reading on that link. I've been through it numerous times now, fantastic stuff.
Thank you to @Xiaozhuang for his fantastic work.

It's also possible you've got a thin film of algae either on the leaves or glass that comes and goes impacting the color somewhat.

Bump:


shawnsj said:


> Fabulous, well done.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk



I see that's your first post @shawnsj welcome to the planted tank!:smile2:


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Pantanal in general likes high PAR and a fairly nutrient rich environment. And it's a bit moody, in that it can change color very quickly if it's not getting enough of something. Much quicker than most to let you know. 

I've always found it to like plenty of PO4, and that would be my first suspect. 

What are your current levels?


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Great looking tank! 

I learned about bean animal overflows from this thread and have since crawled down that gigantic threads rabbit hole. Definitely planning to put one in on my next tank. What size pipes are using on yours? Bean has 1" pipes but he also says they can handle some 2000+ gallons/hour. I was thinking of using 1/2" pipes but unsure if it would affect things.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Blacktetra said:


> It could be the opposite actually! It's very fascinating what causes red coloration in plants.
> I highly recommend reading Dennis' article on it here:
> 
> 
> ...


There is definitely an algae impact. I'm thinking there could be an iron issue too. I'll have to send another sample out to the lab in a couple weeks. Appreciate the links!



Greggz said:


> Pantanal in general likes high PAR and a fairly nutrient rich environment. And it's a bit moody, in that it can change color very quickly if it's not getting enough of something. Much quicker than most to let you know.
> 
> I've always found it to like plenty of PO4, and that would be my first suspect.
> 
> What are your current levels?


I'll have to get back to you. Been quite busy lately. Given growth in the tank in general, I'm thinking I might be lacking a bit across the board. Every plant is going bonkers.

On that note, how low should I trim the Luwigia? All tops are poking out of the water at this point.



minorhero said:


> Great looking tank!
> 
> I learned about bean animal overflows from this thread and have since crawled down that gigantic threads rabbit hole. Definitely planning to put one in on my next tank. What size pipes are using on yours? Bean has 1" pipes but he also says they can handle some 2000+ gallons/hour. I was thinking of using 1/2" pipes but unsure if it would affect things.


Thank you!

I have 1/2" plumbing on this tank. I usually use 3/4" on my reef tanks. 100+ gallon tanks you probably want to start thinking about 1". Of course this is all quite dependent on your tank turnover rate. On a small tank like this 20L, with normal turnover, 1/2" plumbing is more than enough. This system isn't stressed whatsoever.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> On that note, how low should I trim the Luwigia? All tops are poking out of the water at this point.



I usually trim it down to 4-5 inches, plant it down so that about 2-3” of the plant is above substrate. It will usually hit the surface again in 1-2 weeks.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

vvDO said:


> I usually trim it down to 4-5 inches, plant it down so that about 2-3” of the plant is above substrate. It will usually hit the surface again in 1-2 weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks! Trimming it down to 4 or 5 inches would only mean taking an inch or two off the top for me. Sadly I basically have no room to plant the cut tops either.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Thanks! Trimming it down to 4 or 5 inches would only mean taking an inch or two off the top for me. Sadly I basically have no room to plant the cut tops either.




I usually pull the plant trim and replant leaving about 2-3 inches of the plant out of water. I only trim it in place if I want more plants or if there’s a problem with the top. 

You can trim it down to 2-3 nodes (1-2”) and it should grow back just fine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

vvDO said:


> I usually pull the plant trim and replant leaving about 2-3 inches of the plant out of water. I only trim it in place if I want more plants or if there’s a problem with the top.
> 
> You can trim it down to 2-3 nodes (1-2”) and it should grow back just fine.
> 
> ...


You pull the entire plant? What are their root systems like? Are they easily removed?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

TheUnseenHand said:


> On that note, how low should I trim the Luwigia? All tops are poking out of the water at this point.


It depends if you want more or not. 

If not, just cut down, replant the tops, and toss the bottoms. 

If you want more, leave the bottoms planted, and they should throw out new tops, creating more plants.

In general, Pantanal doesn't mind being trimmed at all, and doesn't slow it down. Just be careful, as it's more delicate than most, so handle gently.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> You pull the entire plant? What are their root systems like? Are they easily removed?




With BDBS it’s super easy, shouldn’t be a problem.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Tend to pull the whole plant and trash the bottoms.
So much branching happens normally I don't bother cutting tops and letting the stumps grow.

Some plants can really throw out some roots.
Crypts can have footage in several directions, stems like mermaid weed can be tough too or break when trying to pull.

Since I removed the capped soil in my primary tank, it is only BDBS!:grin2:
I rip em up by the roots now! No need to be careful! >


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Bump: I have discovered an issue though. A regular water change pretty much drains the tank completely. I doubt fish would appreciate that. I'll have to pump water out of the sump.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Bump: I have discovered an issue though. A regular water change pretty much drains the tank completely. I doubt fish would appreciate that. I'll have to pump water out of the sump.



Looking good!

Would that be a water change of 50% of your total water volume? Seems like you’re changing close to 70% assuming your sump holds about 10 gallons which I doubt.






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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

vvDO said:


> Looking good!
> 
> Would that be a water change of 50% of your total water volume? Seems like you’re changing close to 70% assuming your sump holds about 10 gallons which I doubt.
> 
> ...


The system holds deceptively little water. Total tank volume is about 17 gallons. I'm changing about 8.5 gallons. The tank doesn't hold a hell of a lot more than the sump with all the rock.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Wow I forget how few gallons the tank is. It shows bigger, which is good. 

I am very curious to see how the Pantanal works out long term.

It is such a prolific grower, could be twice a week trim!


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## BOTIA (Dec 23, 2003)

Really Beautiful tank , love it.
My 15 tall is of a similar vein. At one point It was running a 5 gallon sump on it and 4wpg lighting, now its got my jebo 828 filter, turbo twist uv sterilizer and 5lb co2 tank and regs etc from my 70G loach rainbow tank I used to have. But now Im running a 18watt led (white plus RBG) Nicrew light set up. Led's have come a long way, 
I used to use T5HO bulbs in diy custom built hoods what a pain.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

BOTIA said:


> Really Beautiful tank , love it.
> My 15 tall is of a similar vein. At one point It was running a 5 gallon sump on it and 4wpg lighting, now its got my jebo 828 filter, turbo twist uv sterilizer and 5lb co2 tank and regs etc from my 70G loach rainbow tank I used to have. But now Im running a 18watt led (white plus RBG) Nicrew light set up. Led's have come a long way,
> I used to use T5HO bulbs in diy custom built hoods what a pain.


Thank you!

I still use a custom built hood with T5HO's and Metal Halide lighting on my reef tank  I actually like building and wiring those hoods. I don't particularly like changing bulbs, though.


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## BOTIA (Dec 23, 2003)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> I still use a custom built hood with T5HO's and Metal Halide lighting on my reef tank  I actually like building and wiring those hoods. I don't particularly like changing bulbs, though.



I also like building , it was just price of t5 and its components were $$
The led unit i bought costs as much as 2 t5 bulbs i used to use in my 15 tall.
I built a new open top hood today to go with the led. unit
closed top hoods promote mold and my daughter (its her tank) has a concussion so im trying to reduce light spillage.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> You pull the entire plant? What are their root systems like? Are they easily removed?



Here’s how low I chop pantanal down...












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## gridironking81 (Apr 18, 2019)

TheUnssenHand said:


> Some may recognize this overflow setup. for everyone out there that has ever run any type of overflow system and not used the beananimal setup, do yourself a favor and try it out on your next setup BeanAnimal's Bar and Grill - Silent and Fail-Safe Overflow System. By far my favorite return system. It's not complete yet as I just got the glass to construct the actual overflow box, but you can see the beginnings of it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


With the beananimal overflow design, it looks like you attached your airline to the cap on the open channel standpipe a little differently than how he did it. Was it easier and just as effective how you did it? How did you do it?

I'm new to this and realized I may have replied to the wrong post as the pictures showing aren't the ones that show the cap with the airline attached.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

gridironking81 said:


> With the beananimal overflow design, it looks like you attached your airline to the cap on the open channel standpipe a little differently than how he did it. Was it easier and just as effective how you did it? How did you do it?
> 
> *I'm new to this* and realized I may have replied to the wrong post as the pictures showing aren't the ones that show the cap with the airline attached.


Welcome!

As this is half inch plumbing, drilling and tapping a 1/2" cap for a 1/4" JG fitting would be difficult. Not impossibly difficult, but unnecessarily so. 1/4" line is overkill and harder to bend and hide on a small tank. I simply drilled a hole just a hair smaller than some 1/8 inch airline tubing and forced the tubing into the hole. Easy. The goal is simply to allow a full siphon to form if necessary.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Post Trim:


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Pretty much steady as she goes right now. I've mentioned before that this is my least favorite stage. But I'm glad things are going well right now.

Rocks are getting overtaken by Monte Carlo:



















AR Mini will need a trim soon:










I've had significantly less GDA lately, but now I have the snotty, stringy green algae. Comes off super easy, but it's uglier than the GDA.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

View from the bed just before lights out. Status quo, steady as she goes, so on and so on...


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Anyone know why the leaves of the pantanal look so big on some stems? Is this an issue or deficiency?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Interesting pic.

Have to go back through your thread to see all of the parameters.

In general, those bright red centers and the lack of color behind them look like Pantanal ready to stunt. 

Could be wrong, maybe Burr will chime in.

No matter what, my guess is it will be tough to keep Pantanal happy at that height. It is a prolific grower.


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

Lookin really good Hand.


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## Hendy8888 (Mar 6, 2008)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Anyone know why the leaves of the pantanal look so big on some stems? Is this an issue or deficiency?


In my short experience with Pantanal the stems with fat leaves are in survival mode, if you leave them they will produce off shoots that don't really grow and stunt. I have found if you want to save those particular stems just trim the top off and the new growth will be better off then letting it do it naturally.

As to why...I will defer to someone who actually knows how to grow it. It's a fun plant since it reacts so quickly to it's environment.

Tank is looking great BTW!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Thanks all. I realized as I was doing a water change just how much biomass is in the tank now. The carpet is a solid couple inches thick. My going theory right now is that I just need to dose more across the board.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Thanks all. I realized as I was doing a water change just how much biomass is in the tank now. The carpet is a solid couple inches thick. My going theory right now is that I just need to dose more across the board.


That could very well be.

Pantanal is a good indicator plant, as it reacts very quickly. It's a plant that likes a nutrient rich environment. First suspect is usually PO4. If it's very low, it can stunt quickly....at least in my tank.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

The Ludwigia was definitely stunting. That said, it already looks to be reacting positively to the increased dosing regime. Everything does, actually, which I'm stating to question if that's a good thing.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I left last week on Saturday early morning for a week long golf trip. The tank went two weeks without a water change. It was a jungle when I came back. Shame I don't have a picture of it other than this:










Not only were the AR minis and Ludwigias out of the water, the Monte Carlo had overtaken a huge potion of the tank. I did a massive prune today. I must have pulled a pound of plants out. 










I can't really describe how damn dense the Monte Carlo is.


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## yanyan (Jun 13, 2019)

Love your tank man, it inspired me to set up a planted tank too with full carpeting like yours. I have the 20G tank and all parts and accessories for low tech planted tank. It's not yet setup and I'm just brainstorming what plants to put in. I was thinking of nothing but monte carlo with either rock or woods or rocks and woods. Keep us posted with your tank man.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

yanyan said:


> Love your tank man, *it inspired me to set up a planted tank too* with full carpeting like yours. I have the 20G tank and all parts and accessories for low tech planted tank. It's not yet setup and I'm just brainstorming what plants to put in. I was thinking of nothing but monte carlo with either rock or woods or rocks and woods. Keep us posted with your tank man.


Truly am happy to hear that! Best of luck!

Things are going just OK with the tank. I'm realizing that Greggz is probably correct. I just don't think the Ludwigia is going to work long term. It doesn't like being chopped so much as I have to do it almost weekly. It's starting to look not so great. The damn Monte Carlo though. It's no exaggeration to say it's almost 3 inches thick now. I need an underwater lawnmower for it.

I finally decided I'm ready to add fish, now I just have to find them. I have a local store that has the galaxy rasboras, but recently decided I wanted Emerald Dwarf Rasboras instead. Well, I can't find them locally. just waiting to see if I can find some. 

Anyone have any suggestions for some nano algae eaters while I wait?


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Amano shrimp and nerite snails for algae in a nano tank. Both require brackish water to breed so you won't get overwhelmed.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I chopped about an inch of the Monte Carlo this week. I'm probably going to try to chop off another inch this week to try and get the carpet thickness back to something reasonable.


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## yanyan (Jun 13, 2019)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Truly am happy to hear that! Best of luck!
> 
> Things are going just OK with the tank. I'm realizing that Greggz is probably correct. I just don't think the Ludwigia is going to work long term. It doesn't like being chopped so much as I have to do it almost weekly. It's starting to look not so great. The damn Monte Carlo though. It's no exaggeration to say it's almost 3 inches thick now. I need an underwater lawnmower for it.
> 
> ...


Nice pick on those fish. I wanted to stock mine with good schooling fish, and decided to go for Lambchop Rasboras. Just waiting for my DSM w monte carlo and DHG to fully carpet. Plus adding amano and nerite as Minorhero mentioned.

Bump:


TheUnseenHand said:


> I chopped about an inch of the Monte Carlo this week. I'm probably going to try to chop off another inch this week to try and get the carpet thickness back to something reasonable.


Oh yeah, was wondering if you are experiencing the carpet rising like being unrooted since i've seen videos on youtube with bottom part of Monte Carlo rotting because its too thick.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

yanyan said:


> Nice pick on those fish. I wanted to stock mine with good schooling fish, and decided to go for Lambchop Rasboras. Just waiting for my DSM w monte carlo and DHG to fully carpet. Plus adding amano and nerite as Minorhero mentioned.
> 
> Bump:
> 
> Oh yeah, was wondering if you are experiencing the carpet rising like being unrooted since i've seen videos on youtube with bottom part of Monte Carlo rotting because its too thick.


No rot on the Monte Carlo yet, though it may get there soon. Hopefully tomorrow I can go to town on it. Gonna chop it all up. I think my light is strong enough to sustain several inches of carpet, especially with such a shallow tank.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I learned something today. If you are lazy enough, and let you Ludwigia pantanal grow emersed, it spits out flowers:










I definitely still have a bit of a nutrient deficiency going on here as seen in the leaves, but I'm thinking the change in leaf structure has more to do with the plant breaking the waters surface than nutrient deficiency.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Major thinning today. I cut down the carpet far enough to find some stuff that looks like it had reduced light. Still have an inch and a half or so to go to get it where I actually want it. I'm going to leave the Ludwigia emersed until it is finished flowering, then chop it back too.










Was going to get some fish and shrimp today, but my LFS didn't have anything I wanted. Now I'm on another waiting list...

Bump:


yanyan said:


> Oh yeah, was wondering if you are experiencing the carpet rising like being unrooted since i've seen videos on youtube with *bottom part of Monte Carlo rotting because its too thick.*


As I was chopping stuff down today, I did find some rot. I think it was the graminifolia, though. I was able to reach under the MC and pull quite a bit out. The stuff was a nasty grey, but had virtually no aroma. It smelled like a very mild soil odor. Not offensive at all. I was surprised by that.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)




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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

That second shrimp though! Holy smokes what is that?!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Jamo33 said:


> That second shrimp though! Holy smokes what is that?!


The tank at the store I got them from said "Assorted Fancy Shrimp" haha.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

And it looks like spawning behavior has already begun with the Danios.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

TheUnseenHand said:


> The tank at the store I got them from said "Assorted Fancy Shrimp" haha.


I love the extreme level of detail and accuracy of the species and genus....hahaha


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## AcidGambit (Aug 30, 2018)

Jamo33 said:


> That second shrimp though! Holy smokes what is that?!


Orange rili shrimp. They're a variant of the RCS, so they're just as hardy (and as prolific breeders). I've seen them in red, orange, blue, and black (carbon) variants.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

AcidGambit said:


> Jamo33 said:
> 
> 
> > That second shrimp though! Holy smokes what is that?!
> ...


Me likey.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Gorgeous aquarium. I love it. So colorful.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Lost one blue shrimp. The other blue shrimp was out and about today. Haven't seen any of the others since Sunday.

Looks like all 10 Danios are going strong. 3 days in a row I have had to fish one out of the overflow, despite much guarding...


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Any suggestions on nano sized schooling fish? I love these Rasboras, but I would like a small school of something.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Any suggestions on nano sized schooling fish? I love these Rasboras, but I would like a small school of something.


Ember tetra, cardinal tetra, neon tetra, endlers, and of course rasboras of various kinds. 

You won't see super tight schooling behavior in a small tank. They will group up though.

I would normally say dwarf corydoras but you have a very thick carpet. Not sure how they would do in that situation as I have not personally tried it before.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Don't forget the barbs!! I would not have dwarf corys in a tank with a delicate plant carpeting the whole entire substrate. They very well may root it up trying to dig for food.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

check out the boraras species.
B. Merah, B. Brigittae, B. Naevus etc etc.
Amazing little species with a nice red pop of colour.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Great suggestions all! Thanks!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I found some _Danio tinwini_ at my LFS and it was basically love at first sight. Got 5 of them to see how they do. If the results are positive, I'll probably get 5 more.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

TheUnseenHand said:


> I found some _Danio tinwini_ at my LFS and it was basically love at first sight. Got 5 of them to see how they do. If the results are positive, I'll probably get 5 more.


Pics or it didnt happen.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Jamo33 said:


> Pics or it didnt happen.


Well aware of 2 things here:

1. Yeah, I have a bit of an algae problem. I'm working on it, but believe it to be the result of some heavy prunnings a few weeks in a row without adjusting fert dosing.

2. Yeah, the picture sucks, but these things won't stay still.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

1. Happens to us all. Dont stress mate, you'll get it fixed in no time.

2. They look amazing! That pattern is awesome!!!!


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Yeah, I have a bit of an algae problem. I'm working on it, but believe it to be the result of some heavy prunnings a few weeks in a row without adjusting fert dosing.


The same pearling algae I am living through right now!
Probably includes a very low ammonia spike?

Not really attached to plants but originates from some dying plant matter.
Scatters everywhere, pearls like mad and sucks up plant nutrients.

I had to remove luwigia peruensis, pogostemon stellatus, and two others that escape me.
These plants did not like the transition to inert substrate much.

Break out the tooth brush and twirl!!! >
1/4" airline siphon works well too! :grin2:


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Maryland Guppy said:


> The same pearling algae I am living through right now!
> Probably includes a very low ammonia spike?
> 
> Not really attached to plants but originates from some dying plant matter.
> ...


Does anything eat it? This stuff is particularly ugly. I didn't mind the GDA. This stuff, though, I do mind. I do an almost daily cleaning of it. Today I dialed back my dosing and will soon be sending out another water sample to the lab for analysis. I also have a feeling the fish may have spiked the nutrients a bit.

I've noticed my surface skimming kinda sucks now that I have to fully guard the overflow. Though it seems no matter how well I guard it, one Rasbora always finds a way in...


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Any suggestions on nano sized schooling fish? I love these Rasboras, but I would like a small school of something.



I found that once the numbers increased, our CPDs school quite well. In our 10 gallon it never worked right, but in our 40g with ~25 individuals, they school very well. Not as nicely as some tetras, but they still stick together, which gives a better appearance. They usually play follow the leader with one of the largest males. We even have an orphaned ember tetra that schools with them.


The behavior also seems to be better since we added some dither fish (7 clown killies).


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

ohaple said:


> I found that once the numbers increased, our CPDs school quite well. In our 10 gallon it never worked right, but in our 40g with ~25 individuals, they school very well. Not as nicely as some tetras, but they still stick together, which gives a better appearance. They usually play follow the leader with one of the largest males. We even have an orphaned ember tetra that schools with them.
> 
> 
> The behavior also seems to be better since we added some dither fish (7 clown killies).


Thank you!

I added 5 more CPDs and with the addition of the tinwini and neons, the CPDs are out a lot more, and are a lot less shy. Still no schooling behavior, and I suspect I won't get it in a small tank, but a lot more general activity.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Thank you!
> 
> I added 5 more CPDs and with the addition of the tinwini and neons, the CPDs are out a lot more, and are a lot less shy. Still no schooling behavior, and I suspect I won't get it in a small tank, but a lot more general activity.



Glad to hear it. Not that you need more complexity, but I have found live baby brine helped their color quite a bit. They are my favorite fish right now because at a distance they look somewhat like mini-trout and are mostly blue/grey. Then up close you see so many beautiful details and so much color. They don't seem to impress non-hobbyists as much as bright fish like the ember tetras or green rasboras, but I like that they are more understated.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

ohaple said:


> Glad to hear it. Not that you need more complexity, but I have found live baby brine helped their color quite a bit. They are my favorite fish right now because at a distance they look somewhat like mini-trout and are mostly blue/grey. Then up close you see so many beautiful details and so much color. They don't seem to impress non-hobbyists as much as bright fish like the ember tetras or green rasboras, but I like that they are more understated.


When I first saw them I thought "That's as close to a Brook Trout as I am going to be able to get.", and that's what sold me. 

I will try the brine. There is no such thing as too complex for me. I thrive on complexity. I was thinking of doing a live worm culture, but baby brine is a good idea too.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

TheUnseenHand said:


> When I first saw them I thought "That's as close to a Brook Trout as I am going to be able to get.", and that's what sold me.
> 
> I will try the brine. There is no such thing as too complex for me. I thrive on complexity. I was thinking of doing a live worm culture, but baby brine is a good idea too.



I have found baby brine to be the best at helping color of the live foods I have tried. Hatching brine is not very difficult, but is one more chore to do. They take vinegar eels well, and those are super easy to cultivate. The vinegar eels will be especially appreciated by the fry if you end up breeding. They won't take springtails, but I use the springtails to distract the top feeders while the CPDs get brine or vinegar eels.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I've lost, I think, 4 CPDs. All of them committed suicide in the overflow. I think I finally have it so they just can't get in there anymore.

Also ordered some vinegar eels. Should be a fun weekend project to get those cultures setup.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Making some headway in the battle to reclaim the tank from algae:


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Making some headway in the battle to reclaim the tank from algae:




Nice stream!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Well, I have little baby somethings in the sump. Way too tiny to tell yet what they are.


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## irishspy (Oct 22, 2007)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Well, I have little baby somethings in the sump. Way too tiny to tell yet what they are.


I bet they're CPD fry. They breed pretty readily in good conditions.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Been a while since my last update. I went on vacation for a week, came back and promptly got really, really sick. Then I got better just in time to travel to Kansas City for work. This meant the tank went about 3.5 weeks without a water change. I developed a nasty blue green layer of cyano over almost everything. I finally got a chance to do a water change today. Well, actually, I did one yesterday and today as there were a lot of nutrients to export. I also chopped a a lot of stuff down, despite how full the tank looks.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Well, even with what was essentially a 100% water change, still got some cyano going on. This will be fun...


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Go to your local fish store or even a big box fish store and buy yourself some Erythromycin. Looks like this.

Follow the package directions and it should clear up / die off inside of a week.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Chemiclean takes care of BGA/Cyano very well.

Just be sure to add extra aeration, as it can quickly lower oxygen levels if there is a lot of it. 

IMO, better to get rid of it first, then start searching for reasons that it cropped up.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Ok all: I'm getting a metric crap-ton of fry in the sump. I'm thinking it's a good opportunity to raise them in a separate tank as the sump is not ideal. I've never done this before and would appreciate some guidance if any is to be had. Do I just need a 5 gallon tank with some hiding spots? Should I set up a couple tanks for different stages? Should they be planted? Best food for fry?

Thanks!


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Ok all: I'm getting a metric crap-ton of fry in the sump. I'm thinking it's a good opportunity to raise them in a separate tank as the sump is not ideal. I've never done this before and would appreciate some guidance if any is to be had. Do I just need a 5 gallon tank with some hiding spots? Should I set up a couple tanks for different stages? Should they be planted? Best food for fry?
> 
> Thanks!


CPD fry?
Have you seen the thread about it?
But a small tank for the start yes. 5 gallon is plenty and then grow out until they are big enough to fend for themselves.
Good work mate!


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

Great thread in the fish section on raising CPDs. Should be easy to find. 

Thinking of grabbing one or two of these 20 longs while they have that $1 sale going on. Would like to swap out my 10g.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I want to plumb this grow out tank straight to main tank. So far I've cracked two 5.5 gallon tanks trying to drill them. I may make an acrylic tank just so I can drill it.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

TheUnseenHand said:


> I want to plumb this grow out tank straight to main tank. So far I've cracked two 5.5 gallon tanks trying to drill them. I may make an acrylic tank just so I can drill it.


What method are you using to drill the tanks?


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

minorhero said:


> What method are you using to drill the tanks?


Diamond hole saw. I was being lazy and put it on the drill press, which wasn't giving me fine enough control over the pressure I was applying. Was also trying to go too fast. I finally got it on the third tank using an electric hand drill and a bit guide. The glass on a 5.5 gallon tank is incredibly thin and far more difficult to drill than a larger tank. You have to go very slow and apply very little pressure. I was essentially just using the weight of the drill.

Bits: https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/diamond-coated-glass-drill-bits.html

Drill Guide: https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/glass-drill-bit-guide-thk.html

The only difference is that my drill guide has bearings on it to avoid wear from the bit dragging on it.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

I haven't drilled a tank yet but from watching a LOT of videos on it you are also apparently supposed to put water on the tank as you drill. Most folks use a garden hose and either have someone hold it in place or use something to create a dam around the hole being drilled and filling that with water. The idea is that the water will distribute the heat being built up from the drill. This might have also done in the smaller tanks if you were not using water.


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## Mr.Shenanagins (May 2, 2017)

minorhero said:


> I haven't drilled a tank yet but from watching a LOT of videos on it you are also apparently supposed to put water on the tank as you drill. Most folks use a garden hose and either have someone hold it in place or use something to create a dam around the hole being drilled and filling that with water. The idea is that the water will distribute the heat being built up from the drill. This might have also done in the smaller tanks if you were not using water.


 I can attest to this, I drilled for the first time with my 40B I just started setting up. Let the drill do the work, when you feel tempted to press down because you think it’s taking too long, DON’T! This will result in you chipping the glass at the end or cracking it. I kept the hose running over the bit to keep it cool the whole time, but I stopped every 10-15 secs as a precaution as well. Worked like a charm, and I drilled two holes within inches of each other. But I’ve read the thinner the glass the more difficult it is to drill due to its instability.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I've found the water thing to be a bit less important than it is generally made out to be. I agree with it's use, but have not found it vital to be running. I keep a cup of water close by and just pour a bit on the drill spot occasionally and stop occasionally as mentioned above. The glass won't get too hot if you aren't running the drill at super high RPM. Some people like to make a ring around the work area with modeling clay to keep a pool of water in the area they are drilling.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Fry living in luxury now out of the sump


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

My LFS finally got Dwarf Emerald Rasboras. I got 10. Lost 1, and it looks like a couple others have ich. I know that scares the bejeebus out of some people, but I think I should be fine. The other fish are very healthy. This happened with the CPDs as well. A couple got ich an died off and the rest thrived.

Looks like I have another batch of fry to fish out of the sump as well. Probably pushing 40 now of what I assume are CPDs.

Also gave the tank a very hard prune today. I took out a ton of vegetation. It's kinda nice to be able to see the fish again.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Pics or it didn't happen!:grin2:


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Pics or it didn't happen!<a href="http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/images/PlantedTank_net_2015/smilies/tango_face_grin.png" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" ></a>


Seconded


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Yes yes, I know. The Emeralds are very shy right now, especially after I chopped down their forest. I'll do what I can to get some pics tomorrow.

In the mean time, I'm looking for a plant to replace the ludwigia. I finally just ripped it all out. It was still growing, but I just could never get it to thrive again. So I'm looking for a short plant that I can put in it's place to grow up towards the overflow. Something that only gets maybe 5 inches or so tall. Open to any suggestions.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Here is the heavy prune at least. Just need some plants to block the overflow now.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Here is the heavy prune at least. Just need some plants to block the overflow now.



That carpet is still super thick!!

How about a buce wall? Or maybe Anubias nana petite, moss or other plant that would grow on a mesh or a piece of driftwood you can place in front of the overflow?


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I spent some time trying to get a picture of the dwarf emeralds. They are more skittish than the CPDs. I started with 10. Lost 6 to ich, 1 to a suicidal jump. Down to three, but those three are looking very good. Here are at least some picture attempts:


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I've also decided to move completely away from my minimalist look to semi jungle. The fish are really appreciating the changes:


















Working on some hair algae at the moment. I am feeding quite heavily right now as I was ensuring the fish were strong enough to recover from ich introduced by the emeralds. Amazing what just good water conditions and good food do for their ability to fight off disease.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Random DSLR photos. Was tired of the cell camera. This camera is like 15 or 20 years old now, but still has a purpose.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Last thing for today: Progression pics.

3/12/19










11/29/19










Tank has changed a lot.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

New addition to the tank:










There are actually several that I added. While the other fish pick at the food that makes it to the bottom, as the shrimp does, I wanted something that would really clean up the scraps.

CPD trying to steal the shot:










Seeing an Emerald is almost like spotting a unicorn:










That said, I noticed today that I actually have 4 left when I thought I only had three, so that is exciting! I also have some testing goodies arriving today are I continue to wage war with algae while not compromising plant growth.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

So I found out there was an issue with my doser, and I have not been dosing Iron or other micros for probably a couple weeks. Interestingly, during that time, I had no hair algae issues, but had some cyano. After a water change, some ChemiClean, and starting to dose iron again I have no more cyano, but the hair algae is back. All this while plant growth is fine, but color, particularly reds, is a bit lacking.

I'm wondering if I have to start looking more closely at the iron. Current source is Plantex CSM+B. I wonder if I should look at micro managing the micros separately.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Ordered a few more Dwarf Emeralds. I was hoping to get at least 6 out of the first 10 I got, considering how poor condition they looked. Hopefully I'll have a better survival rate with these. 

Then I think I'm ofishally done with fish. After I added the horned nerites I noticed another little snail, now I have dozens. Looks like bladder snails. I don't mind them at all. Kinda neat really. Also saw some other snail, just briefly, that I couldn't identify. It looked long and narrow, with a light color shell. I haven't been able to spot it since. 

Tank has gotten a bit overgrown the past week or so. Probably time for a big time trim tomorrow.


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

Only scene the emeralds in my area once and when I went back decided to go with the CPDs. The emeralds are really cool looking as well. 

Great looking tank, have fun trying to trim that carpet lol.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Quint said:


> Only scene the emeralds in my area once and when I went back decided to go with the CPDs. The emeralds are really cool looking as well.
> 
> Great looking tank, have fun trying to trim that carpet lol.


There is no more trimming the carpet. I'm tossing around the idea of ripping it out entirely and replanting, but I'm done wasting time trimming it.

In any case, thank you!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Yesterday I did something that I think was a major step for me and this tank. I didn't know if I was capable, but, well, here it is:










I ripped it all out! It came out in 2 huge mats. I used next to none of it to replant the bottom. Now I'm wondering what to do with the rest. It's sitting in a bucket with a heater at the moment. I really don't feel like shipping it to anyone and I don't think the LFS will take it. Additionally, it has snails and I know a lot of people freak out about that. I've been picking them out and putting them back in the main tank as I see them. Seems an awful waste to toss it, but not sure if there is another option.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Saw a really good deal on a 25 gallon rimless at my local reef aquarium store today. Took a lot of self control not to walk out the door with it. I probably would have had it not been an AIO.


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## BOTIA (Dec 23, 2003)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Yesterday I did something that I think was a major step for me and this tank. I didn't know if I was capable, but, well, here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I really love your new look.wow


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

BOTIA said:


> I really love your new look.wow


Thank you! It is nice to see the rocks again, and it's amazing how much bigger the tank looks.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Yesterday I did something that I think was a major step for me and this tank. I didn't know if I was capable, but, well, here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks good!!

I can't make out all the plant species used. What are you going with for the carpet this time? Monte Carlo again or are you switching it up?

The only other thing I can think of to do with a giant plant mass is start a new tank or bring it to a local club meeting.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

minorhero said:


> Looks good!!
> 
> I can't make out all the plant species used. What are you going with for the carpet this time? Monte Carlo again or are you switching it up?
> 
> The only other thing I can think of to do with a giant plant mass is start a new tank or bring it to a local club meeting.


Just doing MC again. It thrived and I liked it, it just got a bit wild. I'll try harder to keep it tame this time and if nothing else I know I can just rip it back up.


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## Lapolice17 (Oct 25, 2018)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Yesterday I did something that I think was a major step for me and this tank. I didn't know if I was capable, but, well, here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I really like your original set up and re-scape. I didn't go too far back, but what size tank is this? Keep up the great work!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Lapolice17 said:


> I really like your original set up and re-scape. I didn't go too far back, but what size tank is this? Keep up the great work!


Thanks! Tank is a 20 gallon long.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Another tank trim down today:










Also, I mentioned a snail I saw a few posts ago that I hadn't seen before. I found it again and was able to at least get a picture of the shell. Any ideas?


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## unicorn11 (Dec 9, 2019)

Amazing tank. I hope I see growth so thick some day. 

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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

unicorn11 said:


> Amazing tank. I hope I see growth so thick some day.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


Thank you! I'm pretty lucky that my area has tremendous water quality which makes things a lot easier.

I saw another one of those snails, I think, so hopefully they are not an issue. The shells are pretty cool looking. Reminds me of something you would find at the beach. Maybe a Malaysian Trumpet Snail?


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

TheUnseenHand said:


> I saw another one of those snails, I think, so hopefully they are not an issue. The shells are pretty cool looking. Reminds me of something you would find at the beach. Maybe a Malaysian Trumpet Snail?


All my MTS, and all the ones I've ever seen, have been a solid drab brown. This is much prettier. So you think it's multiplying for you? Perhaps some experts on here can help ID it for you.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Desert Pupfish said:


> All my MTS, and all the ones I've ever seen, have been a solid drab brown. This is much prettier. *So you think it's multiplying for you*? Perhaps some experts on here can help ID it for you.


Possibly (everything seems to multiply in this tank). I spotted one that looked a bit smaller than the one I took a picture of, but it's possible that it's the same one.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Another tank trim down today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I thought you had ripped up MC and replanted... couldn’t tell... grew back in real fast!


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

The snail looks pink/purple, but so do the bubbles making me think the pink/purple is an artifact of the lighting or camera. 

If the snail is white/off-white with brown markings then it's almost certainly a Malaysian trumpet snail.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

vvDO said:


> I thought you had ripped up MC and replanted... couldn’t tell... grew back in real fast!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I did rip out the MC! But I did replant pretty heavily as I was way too lazy the separate out little strands. I just took chunks and smashed them into the sand.

Bump:


minorhero said:


> The snail looks pink/purple, but so do the bubbles making me think the pink/purple is an artifact of the lighting or camera.
> 
> If the snail is white/off-white with brown markings then it's almost certainly a Malaysian trumpet snail.


I'm thinking it's a particularly nice looking MTS. That said, that picture was taken with my DSLR as I didn't have my cell on me. That camera usually does a better job of capturing true color than my cell. If you look at the white grains of sand in the picture, they are bright white, as they should be, which makes me think it's not the camera playing tricks. To my eye, the picture looks pretty close to the real color, maybe a bit less red. Though the color can vary by display. Everything looks different on my cell than it does on my computer, for instance.


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

Looks like the MTS Ive got. They have all kinds of slight color variations. I seeded both my tanks with them (maybe 3 or 4 each). In the 40B I only see a couple every once in a while but they are there, pretty sure the cory cats clean enough that there is much less food to go around. In the 10g without any cats they multiplied pretty good and I see them often including little tiny babies. Even see them up on the plants cruising around. They dont harm anything and seem to help clean up the sand in my experience.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I think I have one random stem of Ludwigia pantanal growing back in. Very strange as I ripped it all out months ago, it wasn't doing terribly well, and I didn't see any signs of it for that entire time. It might not be, though. I'll have to inspect it more closely.


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## Blonde_Swede00 (Jan 17, 2016)

So beautiful!! What lighting are you using? And do you dose CO2?


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Unfortunately I can't get a great shot of it, but this is the plant that is growing in the pantanal spot that seems to have appeared out of nowhere:










Also reconfigured the dosing and ATO area. I needed more storage:



















Which allowed me to finally clean the shelf off:


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Blonde_Swede00 said:


> So beautiful!! What lighting are you using? And do you dose CO2?


Thank you for the kind words 

The light is an LED "Black Box" from SB Reef Lights:

https://sbreeflights.com/sbox-freshwater-plant-lights/71-18-basic-fresh-water-plant.html

This is the only source of light for the tank and is hung about 15 inches over the waters surface.

I do dose CO2. I'm not sure what page, but towards the beginning of the journal you can see the setup. I have a 5lb CO2 tank with a Fisher brand regulator. I honestly forget the model, but I think it's posted back there somewhere. I built the post body with parts from DIY CO2 Regulator and Swagelok. I also run my take on a Rex Grigg reactor. I monitor pH drop via the pH probe on my Neptune Apex.

I saw your thread asking about CO2 info for a 20 long. Feel free to pm any additional questions!


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## Matt69 (Jul 9, 2017)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Another tank trim down today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This is a impressive set up for a 20 long 
Great job


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Matt69 said:


> This is a impressive set up for a 20 long
> Great job
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you!

Bump: I was going to mention earlier that I was looking for dosing tube connectors at Petco and they had 40 breeders and 75's on sale for 50% off. Also had some very nice looking Threadfin Rainbows. It was very tempting.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Unfortunately I can't get a great shot of it, but this is the plant that is growing in the pantanal spot that seems to have appeared out of nowhere:




Yup, does look like Pantanal. Probably left a stub of a stem when you trimmed some time before or a stem snapped when you pulled it.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

vvDO said:


> Yup, does look like Pantanal. Probably left a stub of a stem when you trimmed some time before or a stem snapped when you pulled it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's hard to believe it was dormant for so long. Must have been hibernating under the Monte Carlo.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Had to do an unscheduled water change today. I have been working very long days recently with lost of things going on at the company (yay no OT salary positions!), so doing a water change after work was the last thing I wanted to do. Sunday I picked up a new kind of dry food. The particle size was small, and I like to feed variety, so I added it to the auto feeder. Looks like 2 things happened:

1. I bumped open the door that controls how much food is added a bit.
2. The particle size allowed a lot more to be added.

I got home after a 12 hour day Monday to see the tank FULL of food. It smelled like Petco tank water too. But I was exhausted. So I scooped out as much as I could, dumped the food, and added more without using the stuff I just got. Also adjusted the door on the auto feeder back to its original position. I let the tank go for two more days as I was just too wiped to do a water change. Well, I got a massive bloom of thread algae that I think was a result of the food combined with a different dosing routine. Today I finally changed the water after a nice short 10.5 hour work day. Took the opportunity to trim stuff a bit. Definitely looks like I have one stem of pantanal back. No pink/red in it, so it's likely not terribly happy. But it's growing.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Forgot to mention, 9 more Dwarf Emeralds are set to arrive tomorrow. Though I was not given a tracking number, which sucks, because I don't want them sitting in 1 box on my porch when it's 45 degrees out no matter how many heat packs are in the box.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

All 9 emeralds made it safe and sound. Tank is now completely full. Don't think I can stuff another fish in there. I must say, this has been a tremendously satisfying experience. The effort put into a planted tank pays almost instant dividends.


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## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

Looking good! Do you have any photos of the algae bloom? Just curious to see what kind. Did the wc just clear everything up? Did you test the water before / after? 


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

thefisherman said:


> Looking good! Do you have any photos of the algae bloom? Just curious to see what kind. Did the wc just clear everything up? Did you test the water before / after?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't have any before photos. It's not completely gone, here are some remnants.










While all of your testing questions are very good, these answer to the all is no. That is absolutely something I would usually do. However, I have been working A LOT lately, and I just had no energy to test, do the water change, test more, take pics. I just changed the water and called it a day.


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## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

TheUnseenHand said:


> I don't have any before photos. It's not completely gone, here are some remnants.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I completely understand bro! I share a similar work schedule with long days. Add the wife, the new baby and just “life” I wonder myself how do we find the time.

I am currently cycling a high tech tank myself. I was just curious about different algaes that occur and how to address them specific to these systems. I guess I’m just thinking ahead as sort of preventative maintenance [emoji106] Again I enjoy following your threads and I think the tank looks great. Thank you for sharing!




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## Mr.Shenanagins (May 2, 2017)

Love the color of your AR, really pops with your greens. And I hear you with the lack of time, life gets in the way sometimes and priorities supersede the hobby.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Still battling this thread algae a bit. I am feeding heavily to ensure the Emeralds are getting food as the CPDs and Neons are pigs. Continuing to find a balance as the fish food is a huge variable. As time goes on, I find myself catering more to the fish than the plants.

The Emeralds are beautiful fish. I think they are now my favorite freshwater fish that is feasible to keep in a reasonably sized aquarium (Brook Trout is my favorite freshwater fish in general). One day I'll try to get a decent picture of one.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

All:

I'm thinking of doing something and need to know if it's crazy, stupid, both, or reasonable.

I'm getting a bit bored (this always happens) of my current setup. What I have loved about freshwater so far is that changes for the better yield almost immediate results. Given these two factors, I'm thinking of doing a compete and total tear down. I'm actually thinking of getting another tank, rebuilding the overflow and using PlastiDip so the black doesn't come off. I'm thinking of buying all new plants and completely rescaping the tank. It would have to be a very coordinated effort as the plants would have to be available, the new tank be ready, and temporary fish homes setup and ready to go. But I think this is doable without being completely unreasonable.

I am having a little hesitation because things are going well (despite still fighting hair algae). Fish are happy (found more fry today), fry are growing, plants are growing, etc. But the tank has just gotten stale and I'm enjoying it less and less.

Thoughts from the community?


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> All:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You are not alone, this is one of the risk factors for MTS!

When I changed my aquasoil out to sand, I had all my fish in a 5g bucket with filter and heater until I was completely done. They stayed in the bucket overnight. All were well afterwards.

Looking forward to what you come up with next!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

vvDO said:


> You are not alone, *this is one of the risk factors for MTS!*
> 
> When I changed my aquasoil out to sand, I had all my fish in a 5g bucket with filter and heater until I was completely done. They stayed in the bucket overnight. All were well afterwards.
> 
> ...


I simply can't do that. There is just no room in this house for more than one tank, and I'm feeling like I'm 2 years max away from moving again. Good to hear about the fish in a bucket because that's essentially what I planned on doing. Also glad to hear that maybe this isn't crazy :grin2:

Thinking I'm going to have to start putting together a new plant wish list.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Crazy? No this is not crazy at all. By my standards you are relentlessly single-minded by how long you have had this scape/tank. I rescape my Spec V about every 2 months on average. I am about to do it again and this next one will be a major one, new substrate etc.

Fish will do just fine in a bucket or better yet a sterilite storage container. That way you can give them the same footprint. When I rescaped my 40 breeder recently the fish and shrimp hung out in a storage container over night while I did my changes. I put some rocks in there and some of the plants I was removing to make them feel more comfortable. Just moved the canister filter I was using right over and they were good to go. You have a sump so not as easy for you, but you can buy a sponge filter and an air pump pretty cheap. Stick the sponge into your sump right now to begin seeding it with bacteria so it will be good to go when you do this (as long as you do this a couple of weeks from now). You will be in for under 30 dollars for the whole thing.

What size/brand tank do you think you will go with?

Thanks to you I plan to (eventually) make a beananimal overflow type tank but without the overflow part. I will just have holes drilled in the tank for my intakes and emergency. Will you do anything different this time other then the plastidip?


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

minorhero said:


> Crazy? No this is not crazy at all. By my standards you are relentlessly single-minded by how long you have had this scape/tank. I rescape my Spec V about every 2 months on average. I am about to do it again and this next one will be a major one, new substrate etc.
> 
> Fish will do just fine in a bucket or better yet a sterilite storage container. That way you can give them the same footprint. When I rescaped my 40 breeder recently the fish and shrimp hung out in a storage container over night while I did my changes. I put some rocks in there and some of the plants I was removing to make them feel more comfortable. Just moved the canister filter I was using right over and they were good to go. You have a sump so not as easy for you, but you can buy a sponge filter and an air pump pretty cheap. Stick the sponge into your sump right now to begin seeding it with bacteria so it will be good to go when you do this (as long as you do this a couple of weeks from now). *You will be in for under 30 dollars for the whole thing.*
> 
> ...


Yeah, the relatively low prices of basically everything in this hobby is a huge bonus.

I'm not sure on the tank.I really don't want to go too crazy. I may just do another Petco 20 long or something like a 29 that has the same footprint without too much more height. Nothing custom, and not rimless unless I happen across a good deal on a non-custom one. I'd like to build a second sump too. Then when it's time to really clean one, I can swap in the other. I'll definitely go with the same overflow setup. I will likely never run a tank any other way. 

For the sponge filter, I have a couple sitting around somewhere and plan to throw them in over the next couple days. After a few weeks I'll place a plant order, get some more BDBS (I plan to completely replace the substrate) and maybe order some more rock. I really enjoyed watching the plants fill in and would like to watch that process again. My only fear is that I have a lot of fish now that really use the heavy plant cover. I'm not sure how well they will do with sparse cover while everything grows in.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Yeah, the relatively low prices of basically everything in this hobby is a huge bonus.
> 
> I'm not sure on the tank.I really don't want to go too crazy. I may just do another Petco 20 long or something like a 29 that has the same footprint without too much more height. Nothing custom, and not rimless unless I happen across a good deal on a non-custom one. I'd like to build a second sump too. Then when it's time to really clean one, I can swap in the other. I'll definitely go with the same overflow setup. I will likely never run a tank any other way.
> 
> For the sponge filter, I have a couple sitting around somewhere and plan to throw them in over the next couple days. After a few weeks I'll place a plant order, get some more BDBS (I plan to completely replace the substrate) and maybe order some more rock. I really enjoyed watching the plants fill in and would like to watch that process again. My only fear is that I have a lot of fish now that really use the heavy plant cover. I'm not sure how well they will do with sparse cover while everything grows in.


If its possible for you, you should consider going with a 40 breeder. Down the road getting a tank over 30 gallons will open up possibilities with fish. Additionally if you like "nano" fish you will start to see schooling behavior in a 40 gallon from fish prone to it. Of course bigger is better but a 40 breeder is such a pivotal size for many fish species.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

minorhero said:


> If its possible for you, you should consider going with a 40 breeder. Down the road getting a tank over 30 gallons will open up possibilities with fish. Additionally if you like "nano" fish you will start to see schooling behavior in a 40 gallon from fish prone to it. Of course bigger is better but a 40 breeder is such a pivotal size for many fish species.


40 breeder is my favorite all time tank size. I simply do not have the space for one right now, but that is pretty much my ideal size. Not too big to be a pain to maintain but not too small to be prohibitive to much.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Starting to collect stuff for the big redo. Took advantage of the dollar per gallon sale at Petco today. The part that will take some time now is waiting to get glass cut for the overflow of the new tank :grin2:

Speaking of Petco, they still have Threadfin Rainbows. I have always loved those fish. Been reading about them lately and they seem like a moderately difficult species to keep. While I don't think I have the room for them now, thinking towards the future, how would they fare in a planted tank? From what I've read to this point it seems they would do well. That said, I've read they are not very tolerant of water parameter swings, including pH. That seems like it would make CO2 a no go.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Starting to collect stuff for the big redo. Took advantage of the dollar per gallon sale at Petco today. The part that will take some time now is waiting to get glass cut for the overflow of the new tank :grin2:
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of Petco, they still have Threadfin Rainbows. I have always loved those fish. Been reading about them lately and they seem like a moderately difficult species to keep. While I don't think I have the room for them now, thinking towards the future, how would they fare in a planted tank? From what I've read to this point it seems they would do well. That said, I've read they are not very tolerant of water parameter swings, including pH. That seems like it would make CO2 a no go.




Only issue I’ve had with threadfins was keeping them in the tank and you need to make sure you give them food small enough that fits in their tiny mouths.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Construction on the new tank begins:


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Been reading a long for a bit now, and finally going to put in my 2 cents (though I'm long winded, it'll be more like a buck fifty when I am done). Love the build, I loved the first iteration, if you had kept that MC down to about an inch, it looks stunning. Problem is, MC is maintenance heavy. I get it totally.



Monte Carlo: I had something similar happen with my HC. In the end, like yourself, I removed it. Awesome plant, maintenance heavy. Not good for us frequent flyers. Traded it for Eleocharis acicularis 'Mini'.
Carpet Surfers and Overflow Thrill Seekers: The perils of open top. There is very little you can do to prevent this. Mesh just traps and kills quicker, fry on the hand, enjoy the refuge so at least you are continuing the population without having to buy more. Threadfin Rainbows are superior jumpers.
Vacations and Work Trips: Sounds like we are in similar circumstances. I have a person from my local Aquarium Society whom I can trust take care of the tank when I leave. You can automate the snot out of it, but in the end, the Human touch is the best.

The Tank Itself:



TheUnseenHand said:


>


Plants on the right, tall stem plants, move them all to the left side. Keep the right side open with just your carpet plants and rocks exposed. 

Speaking of carpet plants, those remaining clumps of MC look a bit lacklustre. I am assuming after your major hack and slash it's a matter of time before the bounce back. Are you planning to keep it pruned much lower this time? I did enjoy the look with the stream.

Reconfigure the left side and trim and plant according to size and color. you have the right idea, just needs the execution refined. Those two bunches of AR should be placed together and create a focal point. Surprisingly enough, less is usually more. Visually it's easier and will really bring out the hardscape.

You have quite the selection there, lots of red/reddish plants all fighting for your visual attention, while ok, they detract from one another. Pick one and find a use for the rest elsewhere. Stick with those plants with different shades of green. 

By no means an expert Aquascaper, but your tank has loads of promise, just some tweaking on plant placement and grouping and it can a dazzling tank.

I beyond love the tech behind the tank. Sumps/Overflows, once the hallmark of the Marine Industry are now slowly finding their use in the Freshwater Planted World, your tank is an excellent example of that. I look forward to watching this tank evolve over time.

I see my 2 cents has indeed increased in value.

Gary


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Crazygar said:


> Been reading a long for a bit now, and finally going to put in my 2 cents (though I'm long winded, it'll be more like a buck fifty when I am done). Love the build, I loved the first iteration, if you had kept that MC down to about an inch, it looks stunning. Problem is, MC is maintenance heavy. I get it totally.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I very much appreciate the well thought out and detailed response! 

I'll be honest with you: This tank just got out of hand. I knew things would grow like crazy, but I figured being new to the freshwater game I'd have some slow growing until I got things figured out. Not so much. Everything went bonkers right off the bat. Without fish it was easier to maintain. Adding the fish added a new dynamic and now I fight over which to cater to. I've let things grow out a ton because the fish love it, but that has drawbacks. Namely the aquascape. It becomes less about being visually appealing and more about providing cover. That's really what happened to this tank. I stopped trying to make it art and started just making it a fish home.

With this tank reboot I seek to find harmony between the two. I will keep your suggestions in mind moving forward. While I'm still not sure I could fit any threadfins even in the new tank, if I do, I will add a screen top. The overflow will always be tricky as far as fish getting trapped, but it is what it is. I won't run a tank another way. Just too many other benefits.

In any case, thanks for reading, and thank you for the great suggestions!


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Each tank is an expression of the individual behind it, in the end, your own personal satisfaction is the end result. There are plenty of spaces for fish to call home. 

Keep posting, I'll keep reading.

Gary


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Making some pretty rapid progress on this tank. Should be able to make the switch in a couple weeks, depending on possible work travel.


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## PurdueGK (May 16, 2015)

Really nice setup! It’s hard to believe it’s your first tank!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

PurdueGK said:


> Really nice setup! It’s hard to believe it’s your first tank!


Thanks!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

And of course I had to travel last week setting this project behind a week. Progress so far:

Seal testing new sump:










Overflow installed with black silicone and painted with Plasti-Dip:










I'm convinced I will never, ever ever be good at making silicone seams clean, but they are always strong:










New feature in case I ever go with some Threadfin Rainbows:


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I decided I wanted filter socks in this tank. The issue was fitting them in the small section I have for water entering the sump. So I did what any sane, logical person would do and bought a cheap little sewing machine and made my own. Note the differing sizes indicating the handmade, I suck at sewing craftsmanship:


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

I'm simply impressed you did this yourself.

How quickly will those socks fill with debris from your lines in? It must happen really fast.

Gary


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Crazygar said:


> I'm simply impressed you did this yourself.
> 
> How quickly will those socks fill with debris from your lines in? It must happen really fast.
> 
> Gary


I've thought about this and given the current rate of crud accumulation in my current sump, probably not as quick as you might think. I look at it this way: I do weekly water changes. I made 6 socks. Every water change I'll just swap the three dirty ones out, chuck them in the washing machine with no detergent and throw the clean three in. If I keep that rotation, it really shouldn't be an issue. We shall see, though.


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Oh I didn't realize they were washable. Well, 6 should serve you well, 3 in wash, 3 in use, rotate.

Gary


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Crazygar said:


> Oh I didn't realize they were washable. Well, 6 should serve you well, 3 in wash, 3 in use, rotate.
> 
> Gary


Yeah, the top of the sock is folded over on itself creating a channel that will hold a bent acrylic rod. That rod is what will give the top structure and keep it in the holder. That rod can be removed and I can just take it out and the rest of the sock is washable.


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

So the Aquarium Hobby is finally encroaching on the Laundry Hobby. 

Looking forward to seeing this in action, I've read about "socks" before but was always under the guise they were disposable. 

Plasti-Dip by the way, is how I created my background on my 7.9. Love the stuff, though I felt like I was tagging my own aquarium when doing it.

Gary


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Crazygar said:


> So the Aquarium Hobby is finally encroaching on *the Laundry Hobby*.
> 
> Looking forward to seeing this in action, I've read about "socks" before but was always under the guise they were disposable.
> 
> ...


That's an odd "hobby" you have. I can say that's definitely not a hobby of mine :laugh2:


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Being that the Internet has a place for everyone, I am going to guess it actually is. Though with the proper modifications, your Washer could become a really novel aquarium... ha ha

Gary


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Finishing up the plumbing:


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

After reading your journal and a few others, it has inspired me that no matter the size of my next project, I'm going with a sump setup. It just simply makes sense.

All your equipment is neatly in once place, leaving the tank (barring the overflow) for Aquascaping and adding extra water volume.

That is a nice setup though a question, can you easily take it apart to clean? I've always wondering what one does if something cause you to disconnect one of those PVC pipes to retrieve a fish or piece of debris?

Gary


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Finishing up the plumbing:


That looks really amazing. Nice job!


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Finishing up the plumbing:


Looking super great! Its hard to make out but did you silicone the bulkhead in place? I've heard mixed things about using silicone on a bulkhead with folks saying the gasket they come with is sufficient. I am undecided on what to do when I drill a tank for a sump.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Crazygar said:


> After reading your journal and a few others, it has inspired me that no matter the size of my next project, I'm going with a sump setup. It just simply makes sense.
> 
> All your equipment is neatly in once place, leaving the tank (barring the overflow) for Aquascaping and adding extra water volume.
> 
> ...


Every hard PVC line connected to the tank has at least one union. The unions are there to allow the tank to be easily removed from the stand if necessary.

1/2 inch Union Fitting

You can see all the unions I used. Simply unscrew the unions and the tank is free. When disconnected, the pipe holders mounted to the stand support the rest of the plumbing. You really shouldn't ever have to clean the pipes, but if you wanted to, you could by running a pipe cleaner through them. Because of the way the overflow pipes are set up, it would be all but impossible for all but the smallest fry to make it in the pipes. If they do, it's a free ride to the sump where they can be retrieved. Only real potential trouble might be snails, but they would pose the same problem in a tank running a canister as well. Though it would be worse with a cansiter as you have one line out of the tank whereas the Beananimal return has 3.

It's important to build your stand in such a way that you can easily access all parts of your sump. To clean the sump you can either drain it using a manifold connected to one of the pumps in the sump or any other pump you can drop in. The little water that will remain can be removed with a wet/dry vac. Alternatively you can do what I'm doing and build two sumps that you can swap. Keep one clean and when necessary, drain and swap the current sump with the clean one. With relatively little gear in a freshwater sump compared to one used in a reef tank, swapping the sumps is a very feasible idea. At least I think/intend to find out. I find the sump doesn't get too dirty, especially if you use filter socks, so swapping/cleaning should not have to occur often at all. The downfall I anticipate with filter socks is the likelihood of fry that get to the sump getting trapped and dying in the sock instead of making it to open water where they can be netted out.

Bump:


minorhero said:


> Looking super great! Its hard to make out but did you silicone the bulkhead in place? I've heard mixed things about using silicone on a bulkhead with folks saying the gasket they come with is sufficient. I am undecided on what to do when I drill a tank for a sump.


I did not and absolutely would not recommend using curing silicone on a bulkhead. The gasket should be sufficient and bulkheads are made to be removable. Also, the gasket goes on the tank/wet side, not the dry/outside.

That said, your eyes are not playing tricks. There is something there:










This is completely aquarium safe silicone lubricant. It doesn't cure or bond anything. I use it on the union O rings to keep them from dry rotting. The lubricant also helps form a seal with the rings. The stuff also will help seal a troublesome gasket, but if the gasket is made correctly and seated correctly, the lubricant shouldn't be needed.

Now to the reason I used it on the bulkhead. It's the Plastidip. It's so damn sticky on the bulkhead nut that I couldn't tighten the nut down at all without fear of ripping or peeling the paint away from the glass. The lubricant just allowed me to tighten the bulkhead down properly.

Bump:


MD500_Pilot said:


> That looks really amazing. Nice job!


Thank you!


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## Aframomum (May 23, 2015)

Let us know when your going back to reefs so you can relax a bit... 


Tank and your dedication looks really great! 


Got any links to some of your reefs? If your planted venture looks this good can't imagine what your corals looked like!

BTW, any info on your drill jig? I always had shaky hands when drilling tanks and that looks to really limit movement.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

minorhero said:


> Looking super great! Its hard to make out but did you silicone the bulkhead in place? I've heard mixed things about using silicone on a bulkhead with folks saying the gasket they come with is sufficient. I am undecided on what to do when I drill a tank for a sump.


How far out from the wall will this tank sit? I am trying to determine if doing something like this on a 210 gallon would be feasible where the side of the tank in my house would be visible. Might be able to make a nice piece to cover the side if it is not too far out...


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Aframomum said:


> Let us know when your going back to reefs so you can relax a bit...
> 
> 
> Tank and your dedication looks really great!
> ...


I'll see if I can dig up some coral pics. My Photobucket account got locked out and that's where pretty much all those photos resided. I didn't ever take many pictures of my reef tanks.

The drill jig:

https://www.drilax.com/product/dril...n-guides-holes-1-8-inch-to-3-1-4-inch-inches/

Works like a charm. Absolutely love it. I don't know if that is the same brand of the one I have, but it is the same thing.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

So admittedly as i have been building the new tank I sorta neglected plant maintenance in the current tank. A couple weeks without a trim and it was a literal jungle. In anticipation of all new plants in the new tank, I went to town in ripping out stuff. I had a whole shopping bag full of stuff when I was done. I want the fish to get used to more open water which they will have for some time in the new tank as stuff grows in.

The growth of other plants did a number on the AR, shading it and out-competing it. I ripped a lot out that was really weak looking.










Kinda shoddy looking right now, but I am not going to invest a lot into something that only has a few more weeks of existence.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Unfortunate news. I lost one neon today, and another is on it's way out. I lost some Emeralds I got a while ago that looked pretty bad at the store. Was able to save more than half, but I knew most were in bad shape. These neons looked absolutely great until today. Strange. I don't know if maybe they were just old or what. Everything else looks good. I use the CPD fry as a barometer as they are plumbed to the same system and I imagine would be most susceptible to parameter changes. They look great. In any case, kind of a bummer.


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Do you know when they land (get) their fish? My rule is to wait 3 days after landing before i go in and look to purchase. By this time, the sick and dying have succumbed, mainly to travel stress. Try that and see if your luck changes.

Also, if they look rough, don't purchase. I've learned that "I can save them" lesson more than once myself.

Gary


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Crazygar said:


> Do you know when they land (get) their fish? My rule is to wait 3 days after landing before i go in and look to purchase. By this time, the sick and dying have succumbed, mainly to travel stress. Try that and see if your luck changes.
> 
> Also, if they look rough, don't purchase. I've learned that "I can save them" lesson more than once myself.
> 
> Gary


Yeah, I learned that lesson enough times in saltwater. You have additional motivation there as those fish tend to run you significantly more money. I did manage to save half the emeralds, which had been at the shop for a week, and the survivors are still going strong now many months later. 

The neons looked great from day 1. I'm not sure what happened with these two as every other fish looks great, including the remaining two neons.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

You can go crazy chasing down fish illness. Could be a lot of things. Could have been an old fish. Could have been stressed by other fish and got a bacterial infection. Could have had internal parasite. Could have found something nasty in the aquarium and ate it. Etc etc. If your water parameters are good, your sump has been recently cleaned, temperature is checked, and your food is less than 9 months old there is not much to change.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

minorhero said:


> You can go crazy chasing down fish illness. Could be a lot of things. Could have been an old fish. Could have been stressed by other fish and got a bacterial infection. Could have had internal parasite. Could have found something nasty in the aquarium and ate it. Etc etc. If your water parameters are good, your sump has been recently cleaned, temperature is checked, and your food is less than 9 months old there is not much to change.


Yeah I know. Doesn't make me feel any less bad about it, though.


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

I have yet to try fish medication, and it seems like something you can really mess up if you don't know what you are doing. I found this short video from Cory to be reassuring regarding treatment and quarantine.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Plants have been ordered for the new tank!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

So is Rotala Butterfly not a thing anymore? Looks like the calculators are all broken. Any suggestions on a new reference?


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> So is Rotala Butterfly not a thing anymore? Looks like the calculators are all broken. Any suggestions on a new reference?




It’s down and they know about it, don’t know when it will be fixed. I saved screenshots for dosing my 20L, I can share those with you if you’d like.

You can use zorfox... http://www.zorfox.com/plantedtank/

Only thing is you have to download it and only supports Windows.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

vvDO said:


> It’s down and they know about it, don’t know when it will be fixed. I saved screenshots for dosing my 20L, I can share those with you if you’d like.
> 
> You can use zorfox... Zorfox's Planted Tank Calculator
> 
> ...


Thank you! I was curious as I look to front load the new tank.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Thank you! I was curious as I look to front load the new tank.




I just checked earlier today and it’s back up again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Everyone is scrambling buying food and toilet paper in anticipation of mandated shutdowns. This is my order list in anticipation of quarantine:


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Everyone is scrambling buying food and toilet paper in anticipation of mandated shutdowns. This is my order list in anticipation of quarantine:


I was just starting to think about using dry ferts. I am between GLA and Nilocg for brands. What made you decide to go GLA?


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

minorhero said:


> I was just starting to think about using dry ferts. I am between GLA and Nilocg for brands. What made you decide to go GLA?


It's what I used the first go around which was pretty successful.

Important to note, I don't necessarily plan on using all that stuff. I have been using the EI Fertilizer Package from GLA for this tank since the beginning. No other supplementation was really necessary. That said, I get bored and like to tinker. Instead of buying these things one at a time as I feel the need to mess with something, I figure I'll just buy them all and stash them for a rainy day. They are super cheap and I'd rather pay shipping once as well. 

I have been adding the ferts via a doser, but I may actually try manual addition for a while and see how that goes. I'm not really sure on that one just yet.


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

I get the urge to "tinker". I try to resist that. Hardware wise is a bit safer than dosing. Once you've established equilibrium it is never a good idea to change that. Algae will be lurking.

Gary


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Crazygar said:


> I get the urge to "tinker". I try to resist that. Hardware wise is a bit safer than dosing. Once you've established equilibrium it is never a good idea to change that. Algae will be lurking.
> 
> Gary


I'm more of a dynamic equilibrium kinda guy. Static equilibrium is boring.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Plants arrived today, which would be perfect if not for the fact that I was asked to work Saturday and Sunday... Tomorrow I'm working from home, and I think Sunday should just be a few hours in the morning. Assuming I can have all prep done tomorrow, I should still be able to make the transition to the new tank Sunday after work. This certainly throws a monkey wrench into the equation, though. I did not want to feel rushed at all with this.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Plants arrived today, which would be perfect if not for the fact that I was asked to work Saturday and Sunday... Tomorrow I'm working from home, and I think Sunday should just be a few hours in the morning. Assuming I can have all prep done tomorrow, I should still be able to make the transition to the new tank Sunday after work. This certainly throws a monkey wrench into the equation, though. I did not want to feel rushed at all with this.


Resist urges to rush. Float/sink plants in your working tank (assuming not tissue culture) and they will keep. Wait till you are free. Have a beer. And enjoy. Otherwise you will make mistakes and ultimately not be as happy with the outcome.

Unless of course you can get her done in the time you have 😜


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

minorhero said:


> Resist urges to rush. Float/sink plants in your working tank (assuming not tissue culture) and they will keep. Wait till you are free. Have a beer. And enjoy. Otherwise you will make mistakes and ultimately not be as happy with the outcome.
> 
> Unless of course you can get her done in the time you have 😜


I won't rush. Got work done in 2 hours this morning, so I have been prepping since. All tissue cultures, so floating isn't an option really.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> I won't rush. Got work done in 2 hours this morning, so I have been prepping since. All tissue cultures, so floating isn't an option really.













Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ventchur (Apr 29, 2018)

TheUnseenHand said:


> I won't rush. Got work done in 2 hours this morning, so I have been prepping since. All tissue cultures, so floating isn't an option really.





vvDO said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Haha. Might want to curb the enthusiasm a bit. RO unit is running slow as my water pressure is a bit low for some reason. Unfortunately I do not own a booster pump.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)




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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)




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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Congrats on the new tank!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

minorhero said:


> Congrats on the new tank!


Thanks! I actually really dislike the dimensions of the tank, but it does give me more room for fish.

Fry got an upgrade too:


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

This little tiny Ludwigia is turning nice and red already:


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Ludwigia getting red real fast:










Everything is throwing out roots:


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Can I get the groups thoughts on activated carbon? I loved how it would completely eliminate all odor in my reef tank, as well as yield crystal clear water, but have read some anecdotes that it could mess with nutrient concentrations. Is this true? Does anyone have experience running it? I feel like I might have asked this before, but can't remember the answer.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Can I get the groups thoughts on activated carbon? I loved how it would completely eliminate all odor in my reef tank, as well as yield crystal clear water, but have read some anecdotes that it could mess with nutrient concentrations. Is this true? Does anyone have experience running it? I feel like I might have asked this before, but can't remember the answer.



You can use it, I don’t believe it can remove ferts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Tank parameters Sunday morning (test kit brand in parenthesis):

NO3 - 25 ppm (Salifert)
PO4 - 2 (Salifert), 0.5 (Hanna)
KH - 2.05 dKH (Salifert
Fe - 0.19 (Hanna)
TDS - 98 (Hanna)

In an effort to see how well the test kits pick up a water change, I changed 10 gallons on Sunday afternoon. Monday afternoon test results:

NO3 - 15 ppm (Salifert)
PO4 - 1 ppm (Salifert), 0.3 ppm (Hanna)
KH - 1.75 dKH (Salifert
Fe - 0.14 ppm (Hanna)
TDS - 77 (Hanna)

To see how well I can does to a target, I tried to dose back to the Sunday morning numbers. Added ferts Monday night. Tuesday afternoon test results:

NO3 - 25 ppm (Salifert)
PO4 - 2 (Salifert), 0.5 (Hanna)
KH - 1.75 dKH (Salifert
Fe - 0.19 (Hanna)
TDS - 88 (Hanna)
GH - 3.5 dGH (Sera)

I'm pretty satisfied with those results. I did see a couple strands of thread algae on the glass which made my blood boil a bit. I am going to have to sort out the Hanna phosphate checker. I have a calibration standard I may have to use as it seems off.

Speaking of the Hanna checker, a warning: *DO NOT EMPTY THE PHOSPHATE AND IRON BOTTLES TOGETHER AFTER TESTING!* I am no chemist, but I don't have to be one to know whatever was produced when those two mixed in the sink is really not great for your health...


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

And pictures of course. I'm really happy with the color of this Ludwigia:










Too much flow in this tank to see the plants fizz, but every now and then some big bubbles manage to hang on:










FTS:


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## Nebthet78 (Mar 12, 2020)

TheUnseenHand said:


> And pictures of course. I'm really happy with the color of this Ludwigia:



What is the name of this Ludwigia? It almost looks like Rotala Ramasoir.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Nebthet78 said:


> What is the name of this Ludwigia? It almost looks like Rotala Ramasoir.


_Ludwigia palustris_


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

This little one was basically begging to have it's picture taken:


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Sunday afternoon FTS:










Also, anyone know a good Potassium test kit? It bothers me that I'm adding compounds with potassium but am unable to test for it.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Sunday afternoon FTS:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That’s a lot of good growth in such a short time. I can’t help you with potassium test kit, I only test for NO3, GH, KH and Ca (calculate Mg). 

What’s the grass like plant near the foot of the rocks?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

vvDO said:


> That’s a lot of good growth in such a short time. I can’t help you with potassium test kit, I only test for NO3, GH, KH and Ca (calculate Mg).
> 
> *What’s the grass like plant near the foot of the rocks?*
> 
> ...


_Littorella uniflora_

This is about the only Potassium kit I can find. It's a bit pricey.

https://www.hannainst.com/hi96750-potassium-portable-photometer.html


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## jcbradt (Apr 4, 2020)

as I go through this thread for the first time, this is all amazing!!!!! Also it makes me realize, as a newbie I am NO WHERE near ready to try anything but beginner plants!!! AWESOME!!!!!!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

jcbradt said:


> as I go through this thread for the first time, this is all amazing!!!!! Also it makes me realize, as a newbie I am NO WHERE near ready to try anything but beginner plants!!! AWESOME!!!!!!


You are too kind. I'm a freshwater noob as well 

I need some help. I've got this damn thread algae popping up again. It happened in the previous tank and while I tried to be as careful as possible, it's not surprising that it made it's way into this one. I don't really have experience with this stuff. What brings it on and what are some mitigation strategies? I'm thinking of shortening the photoperiod to start. Unfortunately I can't ramp up and ramp down this light, so simply shortening the photoperiod is all I can do for now. At least until I can mod it to ramp up and down. You know my parameters. Nothing has changed since the last update.


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## Hujeta (Jan 26, 2020)

TheUnseenHand said:


> You are too kind. I'm a freshwater noob as well
> 
> I need some help. I've got this damn thread algae popping up again. It happened in the previous tank and while I tried to be as careful as possible, it's not surprising that it made it's way into this one. I don't really have experience with this stuff. What brings it on and what are some mitigation strategies? I'm thinking of shortening the photoperiod to start. Unfortunately I can't ramp up and ramp down this light, so simply shortening the photoperiod is all I can do for now. At least until I can mod it to ramp up and down. You know my parameters. Nothing has changed since the last update.


I had some of that during my recent cycling. The trigger in my case was a defunct CO2 delivery. Try cutting back light, don't slack with WC, add some fast growing stems, even Excel dosing (I dipped a toothbrush in it and then rubbed of the algae). After this cure it didn't come back. For me I think the Excel treatment/ physical removal was a good start, and then balancing the other factors to make sure it didn't return.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Hujeta said:


> I had some of that during my recent cycling.* The trigger in my case was a defunct CO2 delivery.* Try cutting back light, don't slack with WC, add some fast growing stems, even Excel dosing (I dipped a toothbrush in it and then rubbed of the algae). After this cure it didn't come back. For me I think the Excel treatment/ physical removal was a good start, and then balancing the other factors to make sure it didn't return.


As in adding none, too little, or too much?


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Your plants are small so you have a lot of water but not much plant mass yet. Lots of big stems help with algae of all types. 

What can you do right now? Amanos... more amanos! 10 in a 20 gallon wouldn't be too many. 30 if you want it gone this week. 

Cheaper options? Add floating plants. They will cut back the light level quite a bit, grow easily, and absorb excess nutrients. My favorite is giant duckweed because it grows quickly and easily. Is easy to remove (unlike its smaller cousins). Has short roots that won't affect the look of the tank. And it can take a little current at the surface without dying.

Another option? Raise your light higher. Even if its only temporary it will reduce the strength at substrate. 6" higher and your tank will be getting something like 1/3rd less light at substrate.


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## Hujeta (Jan 26, 2020)

TheUnseenHand said:


> As in adding none, too little, or too much?


Noticed a leak in the setup and had to wait for about 10 days for a replacement part. Kept lights on at the same schedule, after about 5 days the hair algae was spreading quickly. When I got up and running again the rooted algae would even start pearling! That's when I took all the actions mentioned above.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

minorhero said:


> Your plants are small so you have a lot of water but not much plant mass yet. Lots of big stems help with algae of all types.
> 
> What can you do right now? Amanos... more amanos! 10 in a 20 gallon wouldn't be too many. 30 if you want it gone this week.
> 
> ...


Shrimp seem to have trouble in my tanks. I can give them a shot, though. I refuse to put floating plants in. I can dim this light, just not ramp up and down through the day. For now the gameplan is:

Reduce photoperiod for 1 week, observe effects. If successful (meaning continued plant growth and depressed algae growth), then set as new standard. 

If plant and algae growth continue, next step is reduce light intensity from 100% to 75% while keeping the reduced photoperiod for 1 week and observe. If successful, then set as new standard.

If neither are successful, perhaps it's just waiting it out until the plants get bigger. Some things that have been bothering me include not knowing my calcium and magnesium concentrations in ppm or my potassium concentration in ppm. I do not currently have the ability to measure either of these. I have a Hanna Magnesium Hardness meter, but I'm always out of the measurement range of the instrument. I'm considering purchasing these:

https://www.hannainst.com/hi96752-c...8jS-SmYMUF6TaU1ZdTYF_MuvGxMQ9b-gaAnadEALw_wcB

https://www.hannainst.com/hi96750-potassium-portable-photometer.html

But it's a lot of money for an unknown benefit. I suspect I have exceptionally low Mg. Ca I'm a little less worried about having seiryu in the tank. But who knows? I can't test for either and hate the idea of adding something without being able to test for it.

Bump:


Hujeta said:


> Noticed a leak in the setup and had to wait for about 10 days for a replacement part. Kept lights on at the same schedule, after about 5 days the hair algae was spreading quickly. *When I got up and running again the rooted algae would even start pearling!* That's when I took all the actions mentioned above.


I got some of that going on. My biggest fear is the plants getting overwhelmed. I'm starting to see little bits on leaves and that scares me. That said, I certainly don't want to overreact either. I'm not going to go changing 5000 things and hope something works.


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## Hujeta (Jan 26, 2020)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Reduce photoperiod for 1 week, observe effects. If successful (meaning continued plant growth and depressed algae growth), then set as new standard.
> 
> If plant and algae growth continue, next step is reduce light intensity from 100% to 75% while keeping the reduced photoperiod for 1 week and observe. If successful, then set as new standard.
> 
> ...


Suppose there won't be a clear specific answer as to what countermeasure will definitely kill the algae, but your planned steps is a good start I would say. It's a balancing act, taking controlled measures is good for future reference, but could lead to algae overtaking the tank. If you're willing to give it a few weeks, potentially having to clear out the tank and scrub off all the algae from the decor I'd say go for it. 

Physical removal is a good start regardless, as any changes in light may take time before it makes the algae retract, if you can go back and start from square one and monitor the rise of algae you got a better starting position. Again, I found a toothbrush extremely good for scrubbing of algae, followed by a water change.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Shrimp seem to have trouble in my tanks. I can give them a shot, though. I refuse to put floating plants in. I can dim this light, just not ramp up and down through the day. For now the gameplan is:
> 
> Reduce photoperiod for 1 week, observe effects. If successful (meaning continued plant growth and depressed algae growth), then set as new standard.


I thought GH is a measure of C and MG. Your GH should give you a pretty good idea in ppm of what they are. Granted not exact numbers but /shrug. In freshwater close enough is good enough. 

I did look up potassium kits when you first posted about it. But I didn't find anything relevant except a bunch of threads from former reefers who were very concerned they didn't know what their potassium levels were and freshwater veterans telling them not to bother ;P

Why are you having trouble with shrimp? Amanos are pretty hardy critters, if they are dying in your tank then yes something is off with parameters. GH, KH, TDS, those are your goto numbers for amanos.

It seems unlikely though that you would see much difference in algae after only a week. 2 at the earliest most likely from something like reduced photoperiod. Just my opinion.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

minorhero said:


> I thought GH is a measure of C and MG. Your GH should give you a pretty good idea in ppm of what they are. Granted not exact numbers but /shrug. *In freshwater close enough is good enough*.
> 
> I did look up potassium kits when you first posted about it. But I didn't find anything relevant except a bunch of threads from former reefers who were very concerned they didn't know what their potassium levels were and freshwater veterans telling them not to bother ;P
> 
> ...


Close enough generally isn't me, but point taken, as well with K. I haven't tried Amanos, but the cherry shrimp I had never lasted long. I'm willing to play out the reduced photoperiod longer if the algae doesn't begin to take everything over.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

As long as your TDS, gh, and kh are good I would definitely buy some amanos. Big ones if it's an option. They are phenomenal algae eaters and pretty hardy. They are a brackish water creature at heart so they can survive a wide range of water conditions.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

minorhero said:


> As long as your TDS, gh, and kh are good I would definitely buy some amanos. Big ones if it's an option. They are phenomenal algae eaters and pretty hardy. They are a brackish water creature at heart so they can survive a wide range of water conditions.


At last check on 4/5, those parameters were:

GH - 3.5
KH - 2.05
TDS - 73


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Well thars your problem. GH and TDS are way low. You should increase TDS to at least 150 and GH to 6-8. Seachem Equilibrium will do this as will a number of other products out there. But equilibrium is pretty easy to come by.


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Close enough generally isn't me, but point taken, as well with K. I haven't tried Amanos, but the cherry shrimp I had never lasted long. I'm willing to play out the reduced photoperiod longer if the algae doesn't begin to take everything over.


I have been having the same problem, what I found was my massive Sunday water change. 

Each Sunday I was replacing 50% of the tank water. Now I am doing small 10% changes on Tue - Thu and 25% on Sunday. From what I was told the massive changes were causing issues with their molting process and research on various Shrimp specialist sites confirmed this. 

Also as precautionary measure, I have stopped dosing Excel each day Mon - Fri. At this point, the tank is well balanced and do not require it. I have it though for spot treating if necessary.

So far so good. I see them, spotted a few babies already but the true test is a month's time if I have more (or simply a group) that I started with. 

Gary


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## Hujeta (Jan 26, 2020)

Crazygar said:


> I have been having the same problem, what I found was my massive Sunday water change.
> 
> Each Sunday I was replacing 50% of the tank water. Now I am doing small 10% changes on Tue - Thu and 25% on Sunday. From what I was told the massive changes were causing issues with their molting process and research on various Shrimp specialist sites confirmed this.
> 
> ...


Would you have a link any of those threads discussing WC regime impact on shrimps? I'm doing the same as you were doing. Granted I could probably just reduce to 25% WC weekly given my almost non-existent bioload at the moment.


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

https://www.theshrimpfarm.com/posts/shrimp-tank-water-changes/

There you go.

Gary


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

Great journal! love all the details you added about the build for the original 20G, the sump, plants and everything. 
Congrats on the new tank, the added height is great for the fish and now you can grow longer stems! 

BTW, engineer here, I'm also trying to automate the tank as much as possible since I know work can get a bit crazy at times and I get bored if I have to do too much heavy maintenance (water changes) vs light stuff( trims and feed)

I know you've mentioned about having to move in some time but have you thought about doing a semi automated water change system? with the sump it might be pretty easy to implement

Maybe another 50 gallon barrel (hidden another milk crate maybe) that continually pushes water to the sump and maybe a drain line that is set up to dump temporarily to a nearby drain?

I've gotten lights, Co2, ferts, and feeding automated but this water changer would actually be the biggest impact since it'd make things more stable for the fish/plants.
What are your thoughts? think it'd be hard to set up?


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

monkeyruler90 said:


> Great journal! love all the details you added about the build for the original 20G, the sump, plants and everything.
> Congrats on the new tank, the added height is great for the fish and now you can grow longer stems!
> 
> BTW, engineer here, I'm also trying to automate the tank as much as possible since I know work can get a bit crazy at times and I get bored if I have to do too much heavy maintenance (water changes) vs light stuff( trims and feed)
> ...


An auto water change system isn't difficult to set up if you have a controller like an Apex. A couple float switches and a couple pumps, or a dual tube peristaltic pump and it would be a breeze. I've often thought about it, but my tanks were never placed in spot where it would be logistically possible. This tank is in my bedroom. No nearby drains. If it were my house, I could rig something. But I'm not drilling through walls of a rental house.

I would argue that it wouldn't necessarily make things more stable, though. You would have to have a really good understanding of your tanks daily nutrient consumption, how the nutrients were diluted by the water change, and how to dose, even through an automated doser, to keep things stable. Auto water change systems in reef tanks make a lot of sense as we are constantly trying to export nutrients that we are very consistently adding to a planted tank, and Reef tanks are FAR less tolerant of big changes in nutrient levels.

Bump:


minorhero said:


> Well thars your problem. GH and TDS are way low. You should increase TDS to at least 150 and GH to 6-8. Seachem Equilibrium will do this as will a number of other products out there. But equilibrium is pretty easy to come by.





Crazygar said:


> I have been having the same problem, what I found was my massive Sunday water change.
> 
> Each Sunday I was replacing 50% of the tank water. Now I am doing small 10% changes on Tue - Thu and 25% on Sunday. From what I was told the massive changes were causing issues with their molting process and research on various Shrimp specialist sites confirmed this.
> 
> ...


I'm not really married to the idea of having shrimp, though. I'd consider it despite not being a fan of bottled mixes like Equilibrium. I have most of the individual components that make up equilibrium, so if/when I have the capacity to test for them, I'll mess with GH. Or if the algae forces my hand. 

Initial feedback from reducing the photoperiod has shown at least anecdotal evidence of algal suppression. It would be nice to find a way to objectively measure it, though.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Sunday FTS. No water params yet, still have to do that testing.


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## DanG (Apr 25, 2006)

Spent some hours on a very rainy, stormy, house-bound day reading through this thread from the start (skimmed some parts). Wow! So cool. Learned a lot already, and love the aesthetics. Subscribed before, but hadn't had time to read through from the start until now.

Bravo, UnseenHand!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

DanG said:


> Spent some hours on a very rainy, stormy, house-bound day reading through this thread from the start (skimmed some parts). Wow! So cool. Learned a lot already, and love the aesthetics. Subscribed before, but hadn't had time to read through from the start until now.
> 
> Bravo, UnseenHand!


Very kind of you, thanks! I'm happy this thread can be a resource. It makes documenting everything worth it.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Post water change parameters:

NO3 - 5 ppm
PO4 - 0.5 ppm
KH - 2.65 dKH
GH - 4 dGH
Iron - 0.13 ppm
TDS - 74 ppm

The plants appear to really be using up nutrients now, as is the algae. I have not been doing any daily dosing, only post weekly water change dosing to bring me back to the starting point. I'm working on understanding weekly nutrient uptake to develop the best dosing strategy. This may be part of the reason the algae is able to hang on, as there may be a slight lack of nutrients towards the end of the week.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Grabbed a few pictures of the little ones:


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Got a new toy, because life just isn't as fun without toys:


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

Hey, how's the tank?


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Man, lots of things have happened recently. Job promotion, injured my back pretty bad, Covid; it all took away from tank time. So what happens when you take away from tank time?












Things have settled down. I've got slightly more work life balance, my back is healed and I'm over Covid. So now it's time to get back to the tank! Step 1: break down the 29. I've had enough. It's just too much tank. Water changes are too much. I can hardly reach the bottom of the tank without a step stool, and frankly I just hate the shape of the tank. Also, stems are annoying they grow too fast. So back to a 20L!. Unfortunately when I took the 20L out of storage it was cracked. So I salvaged the overflow and got a new tank. Here is the current situation:










It shouldn't be too difficult to see the GLARING oversight I made. I cannot believe I did that. Time to break the drill back out. Plants will be here in a few days and I still have aquascaping to do! Going to go BDBS again, but with dragon stone and maybe some wood. Also thinking of trying PPS instead of EI to potentially save a bit on water changes. As always it will be controlled by the Apex with CO2 injected through my DIY reactor (controlled via the Apex based on pH), temp controlled via Apex, and lighting schedule controlled via the Apex. All equipment hidden in the sump. I'm pondering switching the light. This one is working very well, but I got a Vivid Mini for another project (will link shortly) and I have to say, it's pretty sweet.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Other project for reference: UNS 45U: I'm Back!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Drilled the return hole, which started to peel the background paint. So I had to remove the overflow bulkheads and repaint. No big thing. However.... Reinstalling the bulkheads I managed to crack 2 of them! I've never cracked a bulkhead before. In any case, I salvaged a couple off the 29 and finally got them all installed. A bit of plumbing left for the return, then aquascaping. Plants set to arrive tomorrow


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Drilled the return hole, which started to peel the background paint. So I had to remove the overflow bulkheads and repaint. No big thing. However.... Reinstalling the bulkheads I managed to crack 2 of them! I've never cracked a bulkhead before. In any case, I salvaged a couple off the 29 and finally got them all installed. A bit of plumbing left for the return, then aquascaping. Plants set to arrive tomorrow


Never give up, never surrender!

Some projects run so smooth its like skating on ice. Other projects.... ;P

Interested to see where you take this one. I'm a big fan of wood in tanks even though I don't always plan appropriately to use it. If you weren't planning to, I'd strongly recommend boiling whatever wood you use for an hour (if you need to turn it over and get the other side, just add another hour onto the total) and top off water as needed. This will dramatically cut down on the yellow staining of the water, unless that's the look you are going for.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Just messing around with scapes. I kinda like this one, but I'm not sold on it.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Small changes, but looking more dynamic:


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

I like the additional small rock on the left.

What are you thinking about for plants? Going to go monte carlo again or try something different?


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

minorhero said:


> I like the additional small rock on the left.
> 
> What are you thinking about for plants? Going to go monte carlo again or try something different?


Monte Carlo for the carpet yes. Also have the following to work with:

Alternanthera reinckii "Mini"
Staurogyne repens
Gratiola viscidula
Cryptocoryne parva Mini
Lobelia cardinalis mini
Ranunculus inundatis
Hydrocotyle tripartita
Hydrocotyle sibthorpioides
Hygrophila araguaia


Some of these will go in the 45U project I linked above.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Monte Carlo for the carpet yes. Also have the following to work with:
> 
> Alternanthera reinckii "Mini"
> Staurogyne repens
> ...


I've never even heard of Ranunculus inundatis or Gratiola viscidula. I love the look of Hydrocotyle sibthorpioides but haven't used it myself yet. Sharpen your scissors, you are going to be trimming like crazy ;P


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

minorhero said:


> I've never even heard of Ranunculus inundatis or Gratiola viscidula. I love the look of Hydrocotyle sibthorpioides but haven't used it myself yet. Sharpen your scissors, you are going to be trimming like crazy ;P


I'm starting to doubt it's possible not to have to constantly chop down forests in this hobby. These plants just grow too easily and quickly.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

TheUnseenHand said:


> I'm starting to doubt it's possible not to have to constantly chop down forests in this hobby. These plants just grow too easily and quickly.


It just depends on aesthetics and what plants you wish to use. If using lots of fast growing stems, you are right. When I setup my newt tank the second time, I did it with a low maintenance goal. No carpet, no stems. A couple of bulbs, some cypts, and a big boy form of sagittaria subulata. Other then to remove some dead leaves, I haven't had to trim in there yet, and it's been a month of steady growth. Same goes for my 120P tank. The swords in there need some leaves cut when they stop looking nice, but it's 30 seconds work done during the water change.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

minorhero said:


> It just depends on aesthetics and what plants you wish to use. If using lots of fast growing stems, you are right. When I setup my newt tank the second time, I did it with a low maintenance goal. No carpet, no stems. A couple of bulbs, some cypts, and a big boy form of sagittaria subulata. Other then to remove some dead leaves, I haven't had to trim in there yet, and it's been a month of steady growth. Same goes for my 120P tank. The swords in there need some leaves cut when they stop looking nice, but it's 30 seconds work done during the water change.


No carpet is pretty much a nonstarter for me. A planted tank just isn't a planted tank without a carpet IMO.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

TheUnseenHand said:


> No carpet is pretty much a nonstarter for me. A planted tank just isn't a planted tank without a carpet IMO.


I felt that way when I started using co2. After all, what's the point of co2 if not to have a carpet? But I found that I wanted open areas where I could show off smaller detail stonework that simply would be obscured by a carpet. Now I don't need to worry if a rock is too small or not. 

This is Steven Chong's 2nd place tank in the AGA 2020 contest:










He sort of has a carpet, and also sort of doesn't. I LOVE this look. I don't have the patience to maintain a tank like this, but this kind of 'almost a carpet' where you have islands of small plants growing is what I am aiming for these days.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

minorhero said:


> I felt that way when I started using co2. After all, what's the point of co2 if not to have a carpet? But I found that I wanted open areas where I could show off smaller detail stonework that simply would be obscured by a carpet. Now I don't need to worry if a rock is too small or not.
> 
> This is Steven Chong's 2nd place tank in the AGA 2020 contest:
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, I definitely like the look for sure. But I agree, I simply don't have the time or discipline to maintain a tank like that. Let there be green everywhere there is substrate lol. 

It was like green star polyps in a saltwater reef tank. I love the way they look in small, controlled patches. But maintaining small patches with how fast they grow is just too much work.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)




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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

The plants in this tank are already growing. I stuck all the fast growers in here and all the slower growers in the 45U.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Added one more plant, Hygrophila pinnatifida, and will probably flood the tank tomorrow.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I do like the leaves on this plant. A nice contrast from the generally round or pointy leaves of everything else.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Tank has been flooded. The water is still cloudy, but here are a couple shots:


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)




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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

So I would like to try the PPS Pro dosong system. Considering when to perform a water change, and I understand a water change is recommended when tank μS > water change water μS + 100 μS. Well, all I have is a tds meter that reads in ppm. I'm finding it rather difficult to find a direct conversion between these two. Is there one? I saw a random site that said 1 ppm = 1.56 μS, but it had no explanation of how they arrived at that number.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

So, this tank has been kicking my butt. I don't know where this damn thread algae came from but it's just a bear to try to get rid of. Plants are growing fine. I just did a big harvest over the weekend. But I'm getting real tired of pulling out algae and trying to clean off the plant leaves. 

I abandoned the PPS system in favor of EI again since I've been doing so many water changes anyway. I feel like I'm making some headway in this battle. Slight decrease in light, increase in nutrients and cranking the CO2 seems to help. I've noticed as the pH creeps up through the week, while maintaining the fertilizer levels, the algae seems to come back. But that could just be the algae reestablishing itself after the water changes too. I just don't know. But it's super annoying considering how wildly successful I was with my very first attempt at this.


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

Green filaments? I've had a hell of a time with that stuff in the past. Godspeed!


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

This is aquasoil tank? Sorry I couldn't find where you mentioned the substrate.

I mean with a new aquasoil tank GIANT water changes are required for the first few weeks. A 50+% water change every day for the first week. One every other day for week 2, one every 3 days for week 3 and twice a week in week 4. This doesn't matter if its el or pps-pro because the substrate is leeching.

I am loving my pps-pro 120p tank but I do my regular water change on it regardless. Soooo... your mileage my vary.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

minorhero said:


> This is aquasoil tank? Sorry I couldn't find where you mentioned the substrate.
> 
> I mean with a new aquasoil tank GIANT water changes are required for the first few weeks. A 50+% water change every day for the first week. One every other day for week 2, one every 3 days for week 3 and twice a week in week 4. This doesn't matter if its el or pps-pro because the substrate is leeching.
> 
> I am loving my pps-pro 120p tank but I do my regular water change on it regardless. Soooo... your mileage my vary.


BDBS substrate.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

TheUnseenHand said:


> BDBS substrate.


Ahh gotcha. I thought about this and I'd still think water changes are the answer. This tank used the dry start method so all the growth needs to transition from emersed to submerged growth meaning all the plants are going to have leaves that are decaying while new growth takes over. That's a lot of nutrients just from all the plant leaves going into the water creating your imbalance. /shrug, just my theory.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

minorhero said:


> Ahh gotcha. I thought about this and I'd still think water changes are the answer. This tank used the dry start method so all the growth needs to transition from emersed to submerged growth meaning all the plants are going to have leaves that are decaying while new growth takes over. That's a lot of nutrients just from all the plant leaves going into the water creating your imbalance. /shrug, just my theory.


It's a very good theory. I harvested a ton of growth last weekend, and pulled any and all dead stuff I could find. I replanted all the strongest looking plants, siphoned as much thread algae as I could out.

I've been doing 90ish % water changes every Saturday for the last month. Last week I did a 90 % change on Saturday and about a 20% change Sunday to get any threads I missed. I've been getting home from work too late to see the tank with the lights on, but I'm interested to see what it looks like today when I get home. Hopefully I've made some kind of dent because this is really tiring.


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

I'm curious how long your co2 fills ussualy last?

I've upped the co2 on my system recently to get more of a pH drop and seems like I'm blowing through it very quickly. Tank pressure is already dropping after a month and half vs. Five months for the last fill.

Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Hello everyone!

It has been a fun several years, but yesterday I gave this setup away. I lost my last Danio a few weeks ago and decided it was time to shut it it down. I'm still keeping the desktop UNS, but that will be my only tank for a while.


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## Count Krunk (2 mo ago)

Did you have any pictures after it was flooded for awhile?

bummer, but gives you lots of new ideas for next build.


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