# Low tech successes an failures.



## THE V (Nov 17, 2011)

Even after a few decades in this hobby I'm still experimenting and trying new things. Unfortunately sometimes it works and sometimes it well bombs

My first major success was the 125 jungle that's been setup for 3 years.









This year I'm testing out MGO capped with different things.

Successes 

Dwarf sag.









Dwarf hairgrass










Dismal failure - pigmy chain sword.









Anyone know what the heck is wrong with this stuff.. sheesh...


----------



## NeonFlux (Apr 10, 2008)

That low tech jungle tank looks awesome. Pygmy chain swords are pretty easy to grow. Maybe it's the lighting and nutrient levels or combination of the two out of sync or something. Try adding more plants in that tank.


----------



## THE V (Nov 17, 2011)

Lighting is identical to the dwarf hairgrass tank. They are both 10G tanks with two 23w CFL bulbs above it. all three smaller tanks share one timer on the lights. The rotala is my fast growing nutrient sink. I prune it out trying to give the dwarf pigmy swords time to grow. The sword was growing well then I went away on a few business trips and it melted. I've been gone for 2 weeks per month internationally since april.


----------



## NeonFlux (Apr 10, 2008)

Aw man, sorry to hear that, V.. It happens; sometimes life just really intrigues, and we have to put down our hobbies temporary to focus on our goals and job.. Happened to me before as well with some of my plants while I went on vacation for several weeks overseas. I wasn't surprised though.. kinda knew it was bound to happen. Well, I hope they perk up on you later on.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Weird. What's the substrate? 

Possibly iron deficiency?? Swords in general tend to have high iron demands...


----------



## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Are you using co2?


----------



## THE V (Nov 17, 2011)

BruceF said:


> Are you using co2?


Low tech forum -- Nope. I'd love to go the CO2 route but I just have too much travel to be able to keep up with the higher maintenance. I just past 90,000 airline miles for this year... in 6 months.... ugghh.. The reward of the airline treating you like a human instead of sheep isn't really that much. 

Substrate is MGO capped with Flourite. Shouldn't have an issue with iron. I also blended in Osmocote & charged the potting soil with a few months of my low tech dry fert formula at setup. This is the mix that I use in my 125G that has a bunch of swords in it.


----------



## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

I'm curious why your pygmy chain swords did not do well in MGOPM (did you use the potting mix variety?). I have pygmies in my 3g bubble bowl, yes I know lot smaller tank but they are growing runners like mad all over. I will say the original leaves of the first 2 plants put in (oldest of old leaves) have died off but all new growth and new plants are healthy. Set up has MGOPM, black diamond 'sand' cap, 13w 6500k cfl bulb on 6 hours about 18" above substrate now (fighting hair algae, use to be 13"ish above 'sand') no added ferts just shrimp and snail poo.


----------



## Jnad (Aug 17, 2012)

THE V said:


> Even after a few decades in this hobby I'm still experimenting and trying new things. Unfortunately sometimes it works and sometimes it well bombs
> 
> My first major success was the 125 jungle that's been setup for 3 years.
> 
> ...


Yes i have a suggestion:

Plants does compete of nutrients, i am thinking that those tall plants in the background outcompete other plants of nutrients. I have had the same scenario in one of my tanks.

Jnad


----------



## THE V (Nov 17, 2011)

AquaAurora said:


> I'm curious why your pygmy chain swords did not do well in MGOPM (did you use the potting mix variety?).


Same bag of MGO in all three dirted tanks. Just different caps. Dwarf Sag - Eco-complete, Dwarf Hairgrass - Builders sand, chain-sword - Flourite.

It grew really well and then just melted. The A. reinekii is also struggling for some reason in this tank. The other two it's starting to become a weed.


----------



## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

But are you using Miracle gro organic* potting mix*, Miracle gro organic *choice soil*, Miracle grow organic *choice garden*, Miracle gro organic *tomato and vegtable*, or Miracle gro organic* choice blood meal*?
You just list it as mgo, but there are several varieties.


----------



## THE V (Nov 17, 2011)

MGOPM-

Sorry I was typing on my phone. I've got the MGO saved on the spell correct but not the MGOPM. AUTOCORRECT TO THE RESCUE!!!!!

Kind of frustrating on this one as I've work in agriculture research and have gained some expertise on plant nutrition through trial and error. I've also got a little 2.5 gallon shrimp tank that is doing really well. This little 10 gallon bugger just ain't cooperating. 

You missed the MGO African Violet BTW  Talk about effective use of brand image. They are getting a better price with a very effective ad campaign. 

I used to have a special mix made up when I ran greenhouses that would put any of the MG products to shame. The secret is a minor percentage of sand. If done right it provides stability and drainage (no large wood chips, perlite, or vermiculite needed. It does add a lot of weight however.


----------



## adive (Oct 30, 2013)

I agree with the other post, that plants compete for nutrients and the fastest ones seem to succeed.

Even I have had great success with dwarf sag in my walstad (no co2 injection, no excel) tank, the one in my sig. no experience with pygmy chain swords...


----------



## Pandanke (Jun 13, 2014)

Have you tried selectively adding o+ pearls in the substrate beneath the most troubled areas? I know many feed heavily from the water column, but considering o+ is slow release, and low maintenance is very good, it may help? I add them with my lilies and swords, even in my dirt tanks as they seem to do much better.


----------



## angelcraze (Aug 20, 2013)

I have a few MGOPM tanks set up (all low tech), one is carpeted with pygmy sword (tenellus) if that's the same plant. I've found that the pygmy swords took a bit longer than other plants like dwarf sag and chain swords to establish. I don't find they root as deeply either. With enough light, the leaves turns pink, I don't think two 23w spirals on a 10g wouldn't be enough, I have only a single t5 and 12w LED strip on my 33g with tenellus.

Although, focussing more on the other plants, I see you rotala? is sweeping the surface. I would try pruning it down. I wonder if the rotala or sweeping plants are robbing out all the co2, what you do have. Also, since I mentioned that I don't find tenellus roots as deeply, and I find the runners creep above the substrate before they root in, I would say that you need more water column ferts. On top of that, I was surprised how much surface/floating plants shaded my plants underneath even if they were delicate. 

This is just me, but I might add some kind of sword to use up the dirt nutrients better, and it's roots to aerate the compacted dirt. You could even try replacing some of the stems with a sword or two and see what happens, not all stems......


----------



## HuntCast (Aug 25, 2013)

Every time I have tried 23w cfl on my 10's, half the plants went crazy, and a bunch get fried. Have to find that sweet spot for the species mix.


----------



## BulletToothBoris (Jan 17, 2013)

You carpeted DHG without Co2?! I have the same substrate and used Flourish and Exel with zero success.


----------



## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

fwiw
“I suspect the tank's problem is metal toxicity from excessive iron. The organic soil solubilized the iron in the fluorite releasing excessive iron. This is due to the soil's anaerobic conditions and acidity plus the soil's copious humus, which acts like an iron-chelator. This excessive iron can kill sensitive plants. “
Dwalstad
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...909-dirted-tank-plant-die-off.html#post668554


----------



## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

How long it took you to carpet that much DHG?


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

THE V said:


> Even after a few decades in this hobby I'm still experimenting and trying new things. Unfortunately sometimes it works and sometimes it well bombs
> 
> My first major success was the 125 jungle that's been setup for 3 years.
> 
> ...


You have too many stem plants for the foreground chain swords. Trim the stems way back, start them off short and trim then till........the fore ground plants start to grow in nice. 

So you have LIMITED CO2, you only get build up at night and tiny bit from the air most of the day. 

The key is who can gobble up that CO2 the 1st 1-2 hours...........when the light comes on..........after that, not much is left..........

So if you have a stem that's a weed....and also nearest to the top of the surface, closer to the............light bulbs, there's a LOT MORE light there than WAY down at the bottom of the tank where those short foreground plants are. 

More light= more CO2 demand and uptake, basically the plants closest to the light will take all the CO2 before the others can ever start photosynthesizing. 

So this is where the gardening comes in. 
Trim the weedy stems down the same height or close and trim them if they or any other plants start to grow much more than the others. 

The hairgrass is pretty tolerant of lower light and poor CO2, so it's no surprise. It will do even better if you trim the red plants and pinch maybe 50% of that java fern back. 

I would also add RCS to the tanks, they will help cycle things, Bristle nose pleco, 1-2 or so each tank. Better them, than you.

After 1-2 months, the soil has settled in, you might consider water change son tanks where things are not looking good, but leave the other tanks where they are doing well, alone there, just trim the plant aggressors. 

Think about it, why does my tank with lots of CO2 and many species all work well together, but a many species tank with non CO2 does not? CO2 gas(or excel) addition removes the competition for a limited resource.

Now each species does well.

Foreground plants tend to be a problem for many non CO2/non Excel folks for this reason, they get the least light and thus have the least access to CO2.......

I can justify this easily in person and also in research papers. Nutrients? Not so much. A water change or two takes care of any of that. After 2 months or so, not too much else is going to cause an issue, low O2 from all thr bacteria initially can cause some issues for some plants, they rot, others might not have quite as an intense lowering of the O2, thus do okay and then good there after. 

These are the most likely issues going on with your tank observations.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

BruceF said:


> fwiw
> “I suspect the tank's problem is metal toxicity from excessive iron. The organic soil solubilized the iron in the fluorite releasing excessive iron. This is due to the soil's anaerobic conditions and acidity plus the soil's copious humus, which acts like an iron-chelator. This excessive iron can kill sensitive plants. “
> Dwalstad
> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...909-dirted-tank-plant-die-off.html#post668554


So how much is too much?

I have references hitting 6-8 ppm for optimal growth, 30X what many dose in CO2 enriched high growth tanks.

If someone says "excess", they need to quantify what that is, otherwise is speculation. 

5 ppm? 10 ppm? 100 ppm? 
I've dumped a lot of Fe into tanks and never seen issues even with very touchy species. But not 5-10 ppm ranges except by accident a few times, nothing happened really other than yellow orange water. 


Typical paper looking at toxicity in plants with increased Fe concentration, 5-100 ppm ranges. 

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-8137.1995.tb03087.x/pdf


Can soil and dirt tanks produce these levels? I'm doubtful without a lot sulfides, which are more toxic than Fe itself.


----------



## wantsome (Sep 3, 2006)

I've mess around with dirt tanks some make it some don't. One reason for failure is sometimes my dirt turns anaerobic. Have you checked the tank that failed for rotten egg smell by poking the substrate? Something might have went wrong in the process.


----------

