# Looking for advice for low tech no co2



## Colin Wrexham (Mar 24, 2017)

Hi mate
If you dont want anything fancy regarding co2. Use a 3ltr coke bottle with sugar and yeast method. Really cheap and simple setup. Drill a hole in the lid, superglue an air hose through it. Put a cheap stop valve half way up the hose and stick a glass difuser on the tank end. 4 cups of sugar, half tea spoon of yeast. Add warm water to 3/4 level and screw the lid back on. Should last about 4 wks. 
I used this method for yrs and its cheap and works. Plants loved it. If you have a surface skimner aim it down to keep co2 at lower levels and create lower level flow and movement for the sagitaria. Coca cola bottles are sturdy enough to hold the pressure. Dosing liquid co2 will cost a lot more. 

My motto...keep it simple

It doesnt put a huge amount of co2 in but its enough and you will see a difference in a few weeks.

Dont worry too much about test kits until you can afford it so until then i would get your local shop to do your tests. Explain your concerns and ask for advice. Dont let them just sell you any old thing because they will try. Write down the results of the test they do for you. 
I had low tech for years. I did a water change every month or so...50% ish. Crap lighting, hardly any dosing and did ok. Its not a competition to have the best tank but as long as your fish are happy and plants do ok then thats all i care about. 

I get people saying move this, move that, do this, try that all the time and the best one is, "if that was my tank i would do blah blah blah". Well its not theirs its mine and this is my design and ideas. Try not to stress buddy, takes time, trial and error etc but its a hobby that we love so no need to rush. I think you have seen my tank setup. Nothing fancy, no big brand chemicals and kept simple.

Hope that helps. Feel free to message me if you need more help/ advice. Here is my tank








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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Anubias and those kinds of plants do not need a lot of light. They are low light plants that grow slowly. Yes, all the plants we use in the hobby do benefit from CO2, however it isn't necessary. While I'm on the topic of anubias, they feed from the water column, not the substrate. Flourish only provides micro nutrients and plants need macros, more specifically, nitrogen. 

You do not need to spend a arm and leg on test kits. You need a few basic ones and should a problem arise and it is something you can test for, such as phosphates, then you can buy it then. All you need is pH, Ammonia, Nitrite and and Nitrate. 

You also don't need to spend time and money fiddling around with dry ferts. All you need is one good, pre-mixed fertilizer that would get the job done. I use Thrive. Thrive Plus has extra iron in it which my plants don't need, so there is no reason to use it. A single bottle for the few plants you have will last you well over a year. You would not be dosing every day. Once a week or possibly once every two weeks at a fraction of the recommended dose. 

Put your funds where you need it versus where you think you need it. Excel is a rabbit hole that isn't doing anything for your plants. It is a algaecide. If your plants are growing and healthy, you don't need a algaecide. 

There is a tendency for people in general to make this hobby much more complicated than it really is. It is also highly competitive. Who has the biggest filters, best lights, blah,blah,blah. Ignore the parroting and echo chamber. Focus your attention on where it needs to be.


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## jrill (Nov 20, 2013)

I'll disagree with smooch on the Excel. Its not just an algicide, it's also a carbon source that the plants can use. Dose it every day though.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

jrill said:


> I'll disagree with smooch on the Excel. Its not just an algicide, it's also a carbon source that the plants can use. Dose it every day though.


Eh, win some lose some. When people don't have money for such things, I personally would prioritize, but that's just me.

I also have yet to read any article that claims medical instruments 'growing' due to being given a carbon source. LOL


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

p0tluck said:


> I have 1 flourish root tab per root feeder (swords, sagataria)
> I dose 5ml flourish every week after my pwc
> Dose excel at 2.5 ml every other day


Flourish and flourish root tabs are the same thing in a different form. You don't need both, they are both micro ferts and all plants will take it out of the water column, so you don't really need the root tabs. I've grown swords, crypts, etc all without ever using a root tab.

If you want to get some macro ferts in there just head over to Lowes and pick up this stump remover product. It's pure KNO3 and will take care of your Nitrate and potassium needs. So you'll only be needing phosphate (fish food in low light setup).


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

I have the basic master freshwater test kit by api I forgot to put that in my post, my ammonia and nitrite are always 0 nitrate is 25, pH is 7.5 water temp is 78, I actually just looked at the plants again and actually they have new shoots coming up all over maybe it was shock from when I trimmed them as I cut about 75% of bad leaves off. 

I was told to dose trace and the flourish, or go that site that does the EI and get both micro and macro what do you guys think about dosing trace and flourish I know they have to be dosed on different days but I can manage that, I don't have soil substrate neither I have super fine gravel by caribsea, finer than their cichlid mix but not sand neither that's why I have root tabs to feed the roots of the root feeders and I dose comprehensive Liquid for the water column. 

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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

What about your substrate and photo-period? Also, as mentioned, a bit of macro fertilizer might be required (I'm using a light dosing of Easy Green (Aquarium Coop) along with light dosing of Flourish Comp)....I don't think I'd add Potasium Nitrate (Spectracide Stump Remover) granules!

Also, Excel does serve as both an algaecide and a source of liquid carbon as it decomposes, but Metricide is a much more economical approach. I don't like using it but I inherited BBA from some plants I bought and it's an effective means of keeping it in check.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Smooch said:


> All you need is one good, pre-mixed fertilizer that would get the job done. I use Thrive.





p0tluck said:


> there's so many things to choose from, I think I would need to get a special test kits like phosphate test kit,


 @Smooch has some sound advise on investing in a bottle of Thrive.
It's easy and you don't have to weigh out various compounds and such.
@p0tluck you could get away with just a PO4 test kit.

Dose Thrive to obtain 1ppm of phosphates in your tank.
Wait a week and test for PO4, in a lo-tech tank ferts will not be depleted all that quick.
You may find dosing is only needed every two weeks.
Use the PO4 test as an indicator of your fert levels.

Nothing wrong with stump remover it is pure KNO3 in a bottle.
But it won't give you all of the ingredients of Thrive.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

I have found things to check for are circulation, co2, nitrates, copper. Co2 naturally occurring in the tank is found with a ph and kh chart. Low and high nitrates can cause algae. In old apartments copper pipes are used which leach into the water. In areas that copper pipes exist the ph is high and the water is soft.

How about a pic?

Bump:


Maryland Guppy said:


> @Smooch has some sound advise on investing in a bottle of Thrive. It's easy and you don't have to weigh out various compounds and such.


If you have high nitrates it will increase them, so I have read from 1 whom used it.


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## jrill (Nov 20, 2013)

Smooch said:


> jrill said:
> 
> 
> > I'll disagree with smooch on the Excel. Its not just an algicide, it's also a carbon source that the plants can use. Dose it every day though.
> ...


I don't want to turn the ops thread into a discussion about the merits of Excel but I don't want them to be afraid to use it either. There are many chemicals that are used for different purposes because those chemicals poses more than one property. Maybe we should stop pumping Co2 into our tanks because it's used in carbonated drinks and fire extinguishers.?


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

p0tluck said:


> I have the basic master freshwater test kit by api I forgot to put that in my post, my ammonia and nitrite are always 0 nitrate is 25, pH is 7.5 water temp is 78, I actually just looked at the plants again and actually they have new shoots coming up all over maybe it was shock from when I trimmed them as I cut about 75% of bad leaves off.
> 
> I was told to dose trace and the flourish, or go that site that does the EI and get both micro and macro what do you guys think about dosing trace and flourish I know they have to be dosed on different days but I can manage that, I don't have soil substrate neither I have super fine gravel by caribsea, finer than their cichlid mix but not sand neither that's why I have root tabs to feed the roots of the root feeders and I dose comprehensive Liquid for the water column.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


I think you're going to make yourself crazy trying to piecemeal ferts together. If this is the route you decide to go in, do some math first. If you have go here and there, then order this and that, that's all cash coming out of your pocket. From that point decide if it is worth doing that or if it would be easier just to order one thing of ferts that has everything you need in one bottle.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Smooch said:


> I think you're going to make yourself crazy trying to piecemeal ferts together. If this is the route you decide to go in, do some math first. If you have go here and there, then order this and that, that's all cash coming out of your pocket. From that point decide if it is worth doing that or if it would be easier just to order one thing of ferts that has everything you need in one bottle.


That is what I ended up doing. I wish I had just bought PMDD fert package from Green Leaf. It is only $10 per lb. I would have just added more iron for red plants.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Reason I mentioned the Stump remover because expenses were mentioned by the OP several times. Just buying the stump remover for $6.99 will solve two problems. he already has flourish. He does not need the root tabs or the Seachem trace for a setup like he has. 

I would never recommend something I haven't used myself. I've used Spectricide Stump Remover for years. There are two brands of stump remover that I know of that are pure KNO3, Spectricide is one of them. Warning do not use any brand of stump remover without verifying that it's pure KNO3.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

houseofcards said:


> Reason I mentioned the Stump remover because expenses were mentioned by the OP several times. Just buying the stump remover for $6.99 will solve two problems. he already has flourish. He does not need the root tabs or the Seachem trace for a setup like he has.


I ran some numbers today by going on Amazon and finding the cheapest containers of what OP is currently using. If one were to dose as recommended by Seachem, that is roughly $40.00 a month. Roughly $8.00 of that is for Excel which needs to be dosed daily. The whole thing is completely ridiculous. I didn't even bother to price out the Seachem macros which would have piled on to the total or shipping if Prime wasn't used.

For roughly $22.00. OP can have a bottle of ferts that covers everything. It will last for a very long time with the few plants that are being fed at least right now.

And of course, there is stupid Excel thing. Just because glutaraldehyde 'decomposes' into CO2 doesn't make it any less toxic. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...ameters/48084-alternative-flourish-excel.html

Seachem pretty much denies everything. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/iu6wapsz...l=0&preview=Flourish+Excel+SDS+20160107+1.pdf

And OSHA has a lot to say about glutaraldehyde. https://www.osha.gov/Publications/glutaraldehyde.pdf


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Smooch said:


> Eh, win some lose some. When people don't have money for such things, I personally would prioritize, but that's just me.


I have noticed a huge difference since started using Excel, my plants are greener, and don't seem to be dying anymore except the occasional leaf



AbbeysDad said:


> What about your substrate and photo-period? Also, as mentioned, a bit of macro fertilizer might be required
> 
> Metricide is a much more economical approach. I don't like using it


My substrate is Caribsea super naturals ultra fine gravel not sand, photo period is 4 on(without lunars) 2 off (totally dark) 4 on (with lunars) 14 Off just lunars, as far as the macro I was looking on the nilcog site but honestly got lost as there's so many to choose from. 

Was looking at metricide on Amazon 



Maryland Guppy said:


> All you need is one good, pre-mixed fertilizer that would get the job done. I use Thrive.
> 
> @p0tluck you could get away with just a PO4 test kit.
> 
> Dose Thrive to obtain 1ppm of phosphates in your tank.


Oderdered the api phosphate test kit tonight 

Okay so thrive is not the same as trace/comprehensive? Never heard of thrive so I'll be checking that out ty, but i do know as I've seen someone mention about all in one bottle ferts where i watched videos where they said you don't want to dose micro and macro at the same time. Don't know if that's different than an ad all in one bottle fertilizer



Hilde said:


> I have found things to check for are circulation, co2, nitrates, copper. Co2 naturally occurring in the tank is found with a ph and kh chart. Low and high nitrates can cause algae. In old apartments copper pipes are used which leach into the water


I do have copper pipes this house in 96 years lol, my ph is 7.5, circulation is pretty intense as I'm running 14x turnover (2 aquaclear 110's) 
Nitrates are 25-30




Smooch said:


> I ran some numbers today by going on Amazon and finding the cheapest containers of what OP is currently using. If one were to dose as recommended by Seachem, that is roughly $40.00 a month. Roughly $8.00 of that is for Excel which needs to be dosed daily. The whole thing is completely ridiculous. I didn't even bother to price out the Seachem macros which would have piled on to the total or shipping if Prime wasn't used.
> 
> For roughly $22.00. OP can have a bottle of ferts that covers everything. It will last for a very long time with the few plants that are being fed at least right now.
> 
> And of course, there is stupid Excel thing. Just because glutaraldehyde 'decomposes' into CO2 doesn't make it any less toxic.


I've had the same bottle of comprehensive and excel for about 1.5-2 months as I can't dose comprehensive more than once a week or I get massive algae cause I don't have enough plants to consume the ferts, I dose half of what excel says at 7.5ml a week, I have been looking at all in one is thrive what I should be looking for or the stuff off nilcog? 

Your comment on excel, is that bad for the tank or good for the tank as I couldn't really tell what all the different opinions were. 

I know in the long run im spending more money by what I'm doing with flourish comprehensive and excel, but I just have not gotten until now an alternative for an all in one, so I'll be checking out thrive and the $10.00/lb stuff that was mentioned, for $22.00 could you tell me what exactly that is?


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Sorry if I did the multi response wrong


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Hilde said:


> That is what I ended up doing. I wish I had just bought PMDD fert package from Green Leaf. It is only $10 per lb. I would have just added more iron for red plants.


It's this dry ferts you mix with distilled water to make your own liquid? 

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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Here's some pics I'll start with the good ones first lol 

First 2 are my flame leaf

Next are my basic an units I need to get sterilized gauze and wipe down the leaves then my anubias nana... Then my poor sagataria and amazon lol



















































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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

Smooch said:


> And of course, there is stupid Excel thing. Just because glutaraldehyde 'decomposes' into CO2 doesn't make it any less toxic. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...ameters/48084-alternative-flourish-excel.html
> 
> Seachem pretty much denies everything. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/iu6wapsz...l=0&preview=Flourish+Excel+SDS+20160107+1.pdf
> 
> And OSHA has a lot to say about glutaraldehyde. https://www.osha.gov/Publications/glutaraldehyde.pdf



Toxicity is always relative to a dose or concentration. Commenting without the proper context isn't particularly meaningful. That being said, using glutaraldehyde in a manner that is consistent with the manufacturer recommendations is not overly dangerous.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Smooch said:


> And of course, there is stupid Excel thing. Just because glutaraldehyde 'decomposes' into CO2 doesn't make it any less toxic.
> 
> And OSHA has a lot to say about glutaraldehyde. https://www.osha.gov/Publications/glutaraldehyde.pdf


I have been using Cidex for years. Since I have a chemical sensitivity problem I make the solution near the kitchen vent and have the kitchen door open too.

Another alternative is Brightwell Aquatics FlorinAxis. I use FlorinAxis with Cidex, which is diluted, for plants that need Co2 injected.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

I'm just looking for a simple answer lol, people say all in one... But everything I've read says don't dose Micro and macro together, I looked up thrive but it doesn't say how much of what is in it, i don't want to mix my own and chance killing fish or possibly killing them, I don't need nitrate as my fish bioload + dosing keeps be about 25-30 ppm which thrive contains, I know i need something to go along with the comprehensive or a new fertilizer all together but I just can't find a solid answer. 

My phosphate is 2

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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

p0tluck said:


> I'm just looking for a simple answer lol, people say all in one... But everything I've read says don't dose Micro and macro together, I looked up thrive but it doesn't say how much of what is in it, i don't want to mix my own and chance killing fish or possibly killing them, I don't need nitrate as my fish bioload + dosing keeps be about 25-30 ppm which thrive contains, I know i need something to go along with the comprehensive or a new fertilizer all together but I just can't find a solid answer.
> 
> My phosphate is 2
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk




Could skip macros and just dose micros on alternating days assuming you have enough K. http://nilocg.com/diy-ei-liquid-fertilizer/

This is what I use and could not be happier. Since you do not know what your k level would be and if you will skip macros since you already have enough nitrate and phosphate just get k so on macro day just dose k. It's what I do if my nitrates and phosphates are already good on macro day. This way your not dosing macros and micros all at once. 

Link to k(potassium) http://nilocg.com/potassium-sulfate-k2so4-1lb/

This stuff shows what is in it and the concentration levels. This I feel would be your best solution. 


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

p0tluck said:


> I'm just looking for a simple answer lol, people say all in one...


How about PMDD fert package from Green Leaf. This is what I wish I had ordered.

How about a full front pic?

Bump:


p0tluck said:


> It's this dry ferts you mix with distilled water to make your own liquid?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


You mix it in distilled water or tank water. I mix my dry ferts in a measuring cup with tank water when I dose.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

clownplanted said:


> Could skip macros and just dose micros on alternating days assuming you have enough K. http://nilocg.com/diy-ei-liquid-fertilizer/
> 
> This is what I use and could not be happier. Since you do not know what your k level would be and if you will skip macros since you already have enough nitrate and phosphate just get k so on macro day just dose k. It's what I do if my nitrates and phosphates are already good on macro day. This way your not dosing macros and micros all at once.
> 
> ...


It's there a test for K? Or is that something I have to look at the plants for to see a deficiency in them, I posted pics of the plants my amazons have so many new shoots I was going to pull them then say all the new growth, as long as they don't get ate by whatever fish is doing it. 

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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

p0tluck said:


> It's there a test for K? Or is that something I have to look at the plants for to see a deficiency in them, I posted pics of the plants my amazons have so many new shoots I was going to pull them then say all the new growth, as long as they don't get ate by whatever fish is doing it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


I have one but it's from far away and is lightly planted not very impressive like all these other tanks you see lol, I looked at that also but I read that if you don't dose right you'll kill your fish, I have more money invested in my rainbows than the plants so I'm leery about dry ferts. 


I'll have to take some more with the new fish is hard to get a front on shot cause I have to move the kitchen table is a small room so it's either from far away or to close lol (not a photographer)









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