# ADG buys Natural Aquario?



## prototyp3 (Dec 5, 2007)

Nice. ____ it, ADA. roud:


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

The NA stuff is nice, but I still think Ada is more astheticallly pleasing to the eye. Really can't understand why NA has really nice everything and puts a hideous light hanger like they have. It also bugs me that the stainless pipes cannot be bought by themselves. 

From what I have seen, NA has had higher prices than ADA. It will be interesting to see what everything NA sells for, because ADG said it will be more affordable. Their Facebook said a big announcement is coming, which was supposed to be announced over a month ago. Not sure what the big delay is. 
That being said, I'm excited. More competition means lower prices and better product selection for us consumers.


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## prototyp3 (Dec 5, 2007)

The NA looks just like the grand solar stand.. What's the difference in your opinion?

The regular solar arm wasn't that special in my experience. I had it and it looked like EMT conduit, except for the price tag.

The stands of NA looks heads over heels better than ADA's offerings, that's for sure. Both aesthetically and in terms of functionality. I realize visual taste varies, so we definitely won't all agree on that front.


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## ADAtank (Jul 26, 2011)

yup I spoke to jeff at adg and he mentioned they were actually buying a company lol. I hope the NA stuff is much cheaper. With that being said jeff is in houston and im in san antonio. I think I know what brand my next tank will be. I may have to see what the reviews are for this stuff before i buy. I know for sure ADA does not take short cuts and it has been time tested. It is very expensive though my backside hurts slightly when I buy anything from them. 

Prototype that solar arm is solid stainless except for the end that is stainless pipe. Stainless is not cheap and it has some weight to it as well. It is worth it because I know I can hang off of it and will look good years later lol.

The process that those ada stands go through will make u change your mind

I am going to give NA stuff a chance but some part of me is going to think NA is going to be the Toyota tercel and the ADA stuff is still going to be the Lexus


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

The stands are nice, I'd like to see one other than the wood stain. I'd like to see the grey. I'd also like to see the price on these when Adg gets running again.

When did NA start as a company? Most of the products look like a direct copy of Ada.



ADAtank said:


> yup I spoke to jeff at adg and he mentioned they were actually buying a company lol. I hope the NA stuff is much cheaper otherwise Ill stick with ADA.


That's exactly what I'm thinking. Unless it's cheaper I don't think it will do much.

I'm not sure about the systems approach, we will have to see the details when it comes out.


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## prototyp3 (Dec 5, 2007)

ADAtank said:


> I know for sure ADA does not take short cuts and it has been time tested.


That may have been the case until they apparently moved operations and things began to slip a bit. I've seen pictures and posts of bad silicone work and issues, even on this forum. I've had enough personal experience with the brand to know some products are worth it, while others are not. (I'm looking at you, you crumby ADA stands!) The premium was worth it when they were the only show in town, but that isn't the case any more.


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## prototyp3 (Dec 5, 2007)

ADAtank said:


> Prototype that solar arm is solid stainless except for the end that is stainless pipe. Stainless is not cheap and it has some weight to it as well. It is worth it because I know I can hang off of it and will look good years later lol.


Not sure why such weight is required to hold a light fixture. A piece of steel conduit for $2, or a piece of stainless steel for almost $300.. They both do the same thing and look the part. A light bar may not be the best place to spend a premium in my humble opinion, where is the tangible performance or aesthetic gain there? I seem to have missed it while using both.

Don't get me wrong - I love nice things - but there comes a time when it gets a little silly.


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## Da Plant Man (Apr 7, 2010)

Now that they are owned by ADG, I have a feeling we will be seeing a lot more positive changes going on in NA, also.


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## AnotherHobby (Mar 5, 2012)

Couesfanatic said:


> Their Facebook said a big announcement is coming, which was supposed to be announced over a month ago. Not sure what the big delay is.


There is a ton of work to do when you acquire a company. I'm sure they are getting some of that out of the way and getting things lined up better before they announce it. I was pretty surprised the guy on the phone told me before it was announced. I hope I don't get him in trouble.


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## pink4miss (Aug 20, 2013)

this explained why i never got an answer from ADG about an ADA product i was looking for.


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## Texan78 (Nov 17, 2013)

Does NA have a substrate line or is it just aquariums, stands, lights and filter?


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

They are making some changes to the line right now, that is why it's delayed. No exact answer on what though.

As many have said, NA is just another ADA knockoff, a gentlemen who tried to carry ADA in Singapore was denied and it turn created his own line NA. The stands are nice, functional, and come in a stained wood look because.. Well the owner started off with a successful furniture business. 

They look like about the same thing other than here and there and the principle that they copied off of someone else's work.. 

The price will have to be lower because there's no middle man, adg had to import ada from japan. This will no longer be the case due to them owning the company. It may be lower cost than ADA but don't expect it's to be hundreds of dollars cheaper. The tools will more than likely be priced like GLA's and the tanks maybe $80-100 lower than ADA. 

As of yet, there co2 system has had no glass work what so ever, just inline diffusers. 

The biggest flunk in my opinion and experience are the filters... They use crappy panworld pumps vs. iwaki magdrive pumps like the superjets.


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

Texan78 said:


> Does NA have a substrate line or is it just aquariums, stands, lights and filter?


They do


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## ADAtank (Jul 26, 2011)

Kia vs BMW


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## ADAtank (Jul 26, 2011)

IKEA vs herman miller


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## jsenske (Dec 20, 2004)

Being so close (San Antonio),you really should come to our space in Houston- the one place you can see ADA and NA systems side by side, and you will quickly see (as many others who've stopped in have already) that you'll need to flip your analogies around. We are far from being the Kia or IKEA of the two, I promise you. The cool thing is we will be the M3 and the Eames Lounge for way more than a couple hundred dollars less. The pricing is so exciting to me. 

All will be revealed soon. Rest assured you should be excited, not skeptical. We wouldn't put our name behind (or on) a product that wasn't truly exceptional. And if it wasn't going to be substantially less expensive than ADA,
I wouldn't even bother. 

-Jeff


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## Texan78 (Nov 17, 2013)

Don't get me wrong, it's some nice looking stuff and very classy and I am sure it is quality stuff but, don't look like anything I can't get at Ikea for $100's of dollars cheaper. Ha!


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

Wondering if they are going to "kill" ADG? The website and poor customer service aren't really doing their brand any favors.


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## ADAtank (Jul 26, 2011)

I will keep a open mind Jeff i hope I will convert my ada stuff to NA. I look forward to checking out this new line.


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## prototyp3 (Dec 5, 2007)

ADAtank said:


> IKEA vs herman miller


Yeah, these are just silly... Definitely irresponsible without having seen or used the product line in person.




jsenske said:


> Being so close (San Antonio),you really should come to our space in Houston- the one place you can see ADA and NA systems side by side, and you will quickly see (as many others who've stopped in have already) that you'll need to flip your analogies around. We are far from being the Kia or IKEA of the two, I promise you. The cool thing is we will be the M3 and the Eames Lounge for way more than a couple hundred dollars less. The pricing is so exciting to me.
> 
> All will be revealed soon. Rest assured you should be excited, not skeptical. We wouldn't put our name behind (or on) a product that wasn't truly exceptional. And if it wasn't going to be substantially less expensive than ADA,
> I wouldn't even bother.
> ...


I'm going to be in the Houston in mid to late January, I'd love to check out the NA stuff. Does it look like they could potentially be available for purchase at that point?


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

Jeff has mentioned that he was not impressed with Amano's business practices so I'm not surprised ADG is trying to move in other directions.


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## Texan78 (Nov 17, 2013)

jsenske said:


> Being so close (San Antonio),you really should come to our space in Houston- the one place you can see ADA and NA systems side by side, and you will quickly see (as many others who've stopped in have already) that you'll need to flip your analogies around. We are far from being the Kia or IKEA of the two, I promise you. The cool thing is we will be the M3 and the Eames Lounge for way more than a couple hundred dollars less. The pricing is so exciting to me.
> 
> All will be revealed soon. Rest assured you should be excited, not skeptical. We wouldn't put our name behind (or on) a product that wasn't truly exceptional. And if it wasn't going to be substantially less expensive than ADA,
> I wouldn't even bother.
> ...


It was a joke but, Ikea is a store not a car. It looks nice but it ain't my cup tea and not for those prices.


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

I am also trying to keep an open mind, but don't say you are going to make a big announcement tomorrow and then leave us all hanging for 4 to 5 weeks. 

The customer service and communication needs to be improved if trust is wanted from the customers.


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

Couesfanatic said:


> I am also trying to keep an open mind, but don't say you are going to make a big announcement tomorrow and then leave us all hanging for 4 to 5 weeks.
> 
> The customer service and communication needs to be improved if trust is wanted from the customers.


+1 to this


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## h4n (Jan 4, 2006)

still should be interesting to see come together..


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

It's interesting how you can see NA haters coming out of the woodwork even though this post is probably the first a lot of them have heard of the brand, not to mention that they have absolutely no personal experience with it.

For those with a more open mind, there are a few members on UKAPS.org that have NA equipment if you'd like to see a bit more of the brand from some hobbyists.


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

I am looking forward to seeing what Jeff and them do with the new brand and how it compares to other top names. I still believe previous employees have been the reason for bad reputation with customer service. The only real place I see NA lacking as I mentioned earlier in thread is the use of panworld pumps as opposed to iwaki. Curious to see how things go especially with the fact that, if memory serves me correctly ADG is approaching this based on complete sets more so than individual parts. Also, I have noticed before that there are no nano sized setups and with ada new release of the smaller superjets it may have an affect. Hopefully a few of these things are what's being adjusted before the full release.


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## jsenske (Dec 20, 2004)

My apologies about the "big announcement" thing that never happened. But here's why:

I made that Facebook post on a Friday evening, just hours after receiving our first shipment of NA, mostly samples and test product, but some stock for selling too. I had been waiting to get and see the products in person, and at the time we were going to be only the North American DISTRIBUTOR. 
We were so blown away with what we saw at unpacking, I was really excited to announce official availability and our distributorship. I made that post on Facebook intending to announce it Saturday afternoon, after I'd had a chance to get some pictures of everything. 
So Saturday morning I call NA (in Portugal) to tell them we received everything ok and how super-impressed we were with the products. Well, that's when he expressed interest in actually selling the company, and of course we were VERY interested. 
So just like that, we went from US distributor to entering the process of coming up with an offer, and all that has gone into acquiring the company (a huge task, but worth every minute!)
So I wasn't sure how we'd be proceeding- there were other players in the bidding for the company, so I was sort if in limbo for several weeks while we worked through the details. It was all very unexpected, but we knew we had to jump on this opportunity. We were just that impressed with the product line and the potential for a great situation with NA for the transition period and first production run under our ownership. 
So again, my apologies for not following through with the announcement but please understand the circumstances and the indecision we had about how to proceed during the interim period from then til now. No harm or deception intended and as is often the case, there is a reasonable side to the story. Honestly I didn't think one flip post on our Facebook page would be remembered so much but I was wrong and I will for sure check myself before posting things impulsively or in haste. 
Please know also that we are only interested in expanding the options for a more premium line freshwater system as- in my opinion- the options are woefully lacking in the US market and ADA doesn't have much competition on the hardware side. 
And forget whatever you've seen or know of NA products pricing. We have a whole new margin structure and dealer programs, and I think you're going to like it a lot. Stay tuned and thanks for your time.


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

Looking forward to it Jeff


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## AnotherHobby (Mar 5, 2012)

Thanks for the update! Looking forward to seeing it all unveiled in the near future.


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## prototyp3 (Dec 5, 2007)

Take my money, I want your biggest setup now! :bounce:


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

Same here, thanks for the update and clarification. Looking forward to more information. 

An update on Facebook might be a good idea for those who won't see this thread. Just an idea for you.


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## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

Really cant wait to see where this goes, Im rooting for ya!


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## Centromochlus (May 19, 2008)

A very exciting update for sure. Best of luck and can't wait to see where this goes!


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## volatile (Feb 13, 2007)

ADAtank said:


> I know for sure ADA does not take short cuts and it has been time tested.





ADAtank said:


> Kia vs BMW





ADAtank said:


> IKEA vs herman miller


Take a look at the silicone on my brand new 30-C here and here. Definitely Herman Miller/BMW/Lexus quality. :icon_roll



prototyp3 said:


> That may have been the case until they apparently moved operations and things began to slip a bit. I've seen pictures and posts of bad silicone work and issues, even on this forum. I've had enough personal experience with the brand to know some products are worth it, while others are not. (I'm looking at you, you crumby ADA stands!) The premium was worth it when they were the only show in town, but that isn't the case any more.


Agreed prototyp3. It seems that prices increased year over year while quality decreased. Pretty sad actually.



xmas_one said:


> Wondering if they are going to "kill" ADG? The website and poor customer service aren't really doing their brand any favors.





Couesfanatic said:


> I am also trying to keep an open mind, but don't say you are going to make a big announcement tomorrow and then leave us all hanging for 4 to 5 weeks.
> 
> The customer service and communication needs to be improved if trust is wanted from the customers.





Pg92 said:


> +1 to this


+1. Especially when this was posted on the ADG website weeks ago, but Facebook isn't updated, and emails are ignored. Like the rest of you, I'm also very excited about the new line and having an alternative/competition to ADA. Hopefully customer service is really improved, and not just lip service.

_In the end, its about YOU, the customer. 

I would like to also add (and this will be repeated and reinforced through out the new line launch) that I know some of you experienced less that stellar communication, service, and support from ADG in regards to ADA products over the years. There are a lot of "excuses" or "reasons" for this, but ultimately none of them are acceptable. Trust me: we know when we are not meeting expectations, and we do not like it. We all have been the customer and on the receiving end of a less-than-ideal (or downright awful) customer service experience. Always a bad thing. 

What I want to state now, and a point I will continue to make again and again going forward, is that with this new venture and beyond you will have my unwavering and 100% commitment to an amazing customer service experience, and that we will not settle for anything less. We have learned an enormous amount about what works and what doesn't, and spent a lot of time focusing on how to deliver on this promise of excellence with the new venture. If you ever were disappointed or unhappy in any way with an ADA USA experience with us, I humbly ask for you to consider giving us one more chance to shine and exceed your expectations. It means everything to us, and I think we all know that ADG is more than capable of delivering on this promise. Excellence is a passion and it reflects in our work inside the aquarium. Now we need to bring that same level of focus and dedication to serving you, our valued customer. 

Keep an eye on our Facebook page for the latest launch information and by all means never hesitate to email or call me personally, Jeff Senske, at: [email protected] or 281.924.8894. _


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## ADAtank (Jul 26, 2011)

As far as the Kia comments they are just comments that I made meaning i hope they are not this way just like many knock offs. I hope for the best for Jeff and NA. If he says it will be better than ada quality and price im all for that. As far as the silicone job on that ada tank that's pretty bad for sure i don't know how often there are issues with quality on ada stuff but I know i haven't had any issues with anything and I have everything ada lol. Again don't want it to seem like im a hater just a sceptic on this new line but I can't wait to see the complete line and prices and then reviews before i convert. I am on the lookout for a larger tank i hope I can try one out soon


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

ADAtank said:


> As far as the Kia comments they are just comments that I made meaning i hope they are not this way just like many knock offs. I hope for the best with Jeff with NA. If he says it will be better than ada quality and price im all for that. As far as the silicone job on that ada tank that's pretty bad for sure i don't know how often there are issues with quality on ada stuff but I know i haven't had any issues with anything and I have everything ada lol. Again don't want it to seem like im a hater just a sceptic on this new line but I can't wait to see the complete line and prices and then reviews before i convert


I have to agree with you here, while some people have seen sloppy silicone and what not, I have never. Having 7 or so tanks over the passed two years ( new and old versions) I haven't came across a silicone seam worth mentioning. IMO they have all been on par with what I was paying for. I'll say it like this, with the several tanks I've had custom made for customers that have cost the exact same as ADA tanks with NO starphire glass what so ever... Not a one could even come close to the quality. Everything from panels being out of line to silicone that seemed to have been spilled, I've seen absolutely terrible work for the same cost. I saw one DSA tank that was even on the bottom and 1/2" out of line on the top, granted it's about $250 as opposed to $700. 

I don't know why, or for what reasoning other than to stay a luxury brand ADA has kept raising there prices but I can from experience say I've never seen a tank close to the same quality. 

The few tanks that I figured I would buy because they were cheaper were not even close. One in particular stood out - a GLA 60L - had very very thin glass, that was dark green.. For $40 less? Not worth it IMO. 

Most of the high prices you see here in the USA for ADA are that way due to importation cost and what not. The mini set ( mini m, glass stand, soil, 7 wabi kusa, and ES-300) cost 42,000 yen in japan which is $420 USD.

At the end of the day living here is what cost us the high fee, don't think it would be any different with NA if it weren't for ADG now owning the company.



Figure a glass stand cost ADA $175 to manufacture, they sell to lfs for $220 or to ADG for $220 - tack an easy $150 shipping cost once the shipment cost was divided amongst the entire container accordingly, then add 20-30% margin to that and you end up with a 27"x14" stand costing us $800


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## prototyp3 (Dec 5, 2007)

I think ADA is a great value for smaller tanks if you didn't get a reject. 

One of my four 60P's had panels that didn't match up and sit square. The 120H had bubbles in the silicone and bowed way too far for my comfort, not a good combo.. The 90P was good. So 2 dud tanks out of 6 here. That isn't a confidence inspiring ratio to me. I'm not against the ADA tanks at all, but after my experience I probably wouldn't order one sight unseen again.

As for custom builders not coming close.. The A.G.E. and Reef Savvy tanks I've seen were in no way any lesser than ADA. The craftsmanship was top notch through and through.


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

Yeah reef savvy and AGE are the two higher end for sure, but often more expensive than ADA. Idk you seem to have pretty bad luck with tanks though lol sorry to hear about all that, I've been satisfied so far.


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

Still no updates? Shocker...


If any of you guys are interested in there products, wether it be buying there old ADA stuff or trying to pay them for a new setup before it arrives (did both), don't try to hard to get in touch because they will set your email as spam as they did mine!!! Have to love there customer service... 

Needless to say after this, I couldn't care how expensive or long it takes for me to get ADA products from AFA, ADG will never get any more of my business nor will I ever suggest them as a company to do business with.


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

haha, whats the hostility against AFA for? You do know AFA is the only source of ADA currently in the USA.


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

No no, no hostility toward AFA at all. When I bought from ADG it was one day shipping so I would pick them over AFA, plus with AFA being only dealer I'm sure prices will bump up. Just saying, Id really rather wait longer and pay ada prices before I would ever do business with ADG again.. That's all


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## Texan78 (Nov 17, 2013)

AFA is AWOL right now.


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

I dunno, I don't think AFA's prices will be going up. I think ADA keeps the reins pretty tight. That is why ADG and ADA split. Some "conflict" of the way things should be ran.


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

Sounds good to me


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## volatile (Feb 13, 2007)

Pg92 said:


> Still no updates? Shocker...
> 
> 
> If any of you guys are interested in there products, wether it be buying there old ADA stuff or trying to pay them for a new setup before it arrives (did both), don't try to hard to get in touch because they will set your email as spam as they did mine!!! Have to love there customer service...
> ...


Did you try calling them? Since ADG's website talks about "unwavering and 100% commitment to an amazing customer service experience" and that you should never hesitate calling Jeff personally?

As far as I'm concerned, AFA and ADG could both have better customer service, but at least AFA doesn't go online to promise things and then not follow through. Guess it is just the lesser of two evils.


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## Texan78 (Nov 17, 2013)

Does anyone know what happened to AFA???


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

AFA has been super busy, takes them a day or so to reply to my email but at least they reply.. Oh and when you call them they answer too. It's very frustrating when a business doesn't answer your calls, then you email and they mark it as spam. But then again they do make announcements and vanish for 6 months lol what a joke.


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## Texan78 (Nov 17, 2013)

Pg92 said:


> AFA has been super busy, takes them a day or so to reply to my email but at least they reply.. Oh and when you call them they answer too.



AFA hasn't answered their phone since Monday and their mailbox is full so you can't leave them a message because of that. I have had some very smooth orders and fast shipping and don't have a problem with them and never had but they sent me someone else's order and I am sure my order to someone else and need to know how I need to resolve this as I need it fairly quickly. So was wondering if anyone has heard from them or know what's going on. They aren't answering emails ether. It's like they have gone AWOL.


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

Idk i got an email back yesterday on a special order they were working up for me, haven't heard back since after that.


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## Texan78 (Nov 17, 2013)

Well the have mixed up shipments. I got someone else's order. I called that person and they didn't have mine, they had someone else, so I am sure someone else has mine and so on and no telling hope many orders have been mixed up. For once this isn't a UPS screw up ether because the shipping labels are correct. I am not sure what to do.


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## h4n (Jan 4, 2006)

Texan78 said:


> Well the have mixed up shipments. I got someone else's order. I called that person and they didn't have mine, they had someone else, so I am sure someone else has mine and so on and no telling hope many orders have been mixed up. For once this isn't a UPS screw up ether because the shipping labels are correct. I am not sure what to do.


oh man... that sounds like a mess....


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## volatile (Feb 13, 2007)

Texan78 said:


> Well the have mixed up shipments. I got someone else's order. I called that person and they didn't have mine, they had someone else, so I am sure someone else has mine and so on and no telling hope many orders have been mixed up. For once this isn't a UPS screw up ether because the shipping labels are correct. I am not sure what to do.


Consider filing a Paypal claim (or credit card claim) in case AFA never gets back to you.

I recently had problems with AFA's shipping as well. Placed my order on Monday early in the morning (2am or so). That same day, I got a shipping confirmation number. I checked it throughout the whole week and it never had any updates. At the end of the week, I emailed AFA wondering where my package is. 2 hours later, I see the status updated with "dropped off at USPS post office." Instead of apologizing and admitting they forgot about my package for 4-5 days, he tried to tell me that it did in fact ship on Monday, and that there is an update now if I go check online. I respectfully told him that it looks like he just forgot about my package and dropped it off 2 hours after my email asking about status. Never got a reply back after that. :icon_neut

Also, in my order for Ohko stone, I requested that they be for a Mini S. They probably rushed to pack my order after my status email, because they just gave me a huge rock that is big enough to take up 90% of the Mini S all by itself along with some smaller rocks. What am I supposed to do with that huge rock? :icon_conf


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## Vepr (Jan 30, 2009)

volatile said:


> Consider filing a Paypal claim (or credit card claim) in case AFA never gets back to you.
> 
> I recently had problems with AFA's shipping as well. Placed my order on Monday early in the morning (2am or so). That same day, I got a shipping confirmation number. I checked it throughout the whole week and it never had any updates. At the end of the week, I emailed AFA wondering where my package is. 2 hours later, I see the status updated with "dropped off at USPS post office." Instead of apologizing and admitting they forgot about my package for 4-5 days, he tried to tell me that it did in fact ship on Monday, and that there is an update now if I go check online. I respectfully told him that it looks like he just forgot about my package and dropped it off 2 hours after my email asking about status. Never got a reply back after that. :icon_neut
> 
> Also, in my order for Ohko stone, I requested that they be for a Mini S. They probably rushed to pack my order after my status email, because they just gave me a huge rock that is big enough to take up 90% of the Mini S all by itself along with some smaller rocks. What am I supposed to do with that huge rock? :icon_conf


If you are careful you can break it up into the type of sections you want. I broke up a huge piece with a towel, my hands, and a rubber mallet.


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

I've come to the conclusion that all fish stores have poor customer service. I chose the ones with the better service.


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

Couesfanatic said:


> I've come to the conclusion that all fish stores have poor customer service. I chose the ones with the better service.


+1 wholeheartedly agree


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

Texan78 said:


> AFA hasn't answered their phone since Monday and their mailbox is full so you can't leave them a message because of that. I have had some very smooth orders and fast shipping and don't have a problem with them and never had but they sent me someone else's order and I am sure my order to someone else and need to know how I need to resolve this as I need it fairly quickly. So was wondering if anyone has heard from them or know what's going on. They aren't answering emails ether. It's like they have gone AWOL.


1718 Fillmore St.
(between Post and Sutter Streets)
San Francisco, CA 94115
Phone: 415.929.8883
Fax: 415.929.8826
Email: [email protected]

Directions: Click here
Hours:
Tuesday, closed
Monday-Saturday, 11am-7pm
Sunday, noon-6pm

Just got off the phone with them, answered on the second ring. Maybe they know your number....:hihi:


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## Green_Flash (Apr 15, 2012)

I am still waiting to see what is offered and at what price, including shipping. That is especially important, who wants to pay $300+ in shipping for the larger tanks? 

If I can get a 120-H and one of those nice NA stands for under $1250 including shipping, then I will pull the trigger super fast in an instant. :icon_cool 



Couesfanatic said:


> I've come to the conclusion that all fish stores have poor customer service*. I chose the ones with the better service.



I add a * to that, when it is good it is unbelievably good, but when it is bad, boy it can be really bad.


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## Texan78 (Nov 17, 2013)

xmas_one said:


> 1718 Fillmore St.
> (between Post and Sutter Streets)
> San Francisco, CA 94115
> Phone: 415.929.8883
> ...



Aware of their number. I was calling the right number. I had sent them an email that I had been trying to get a hold of them for 2 days as well as 4 other people and that they weren't picking up their phone and their voicemail was full so no one could leave a message and that if I didn't hear from them by Friday 5 PM I was going to file a claim with pay-pal. 30 mins later they called. They were probably answering their phone now because they knew I would be calling back as well as others to tell them what was in the box they sent me so they could sort out their shipping mix up.


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## Matsnork (Jun 3, 2013)

I have purchased several items from NA in the last couple of months, and I have never experienced better customer service anywhere, and I´m a picky customer.
Must be a temporary thing, they are most likely busy with the transition. Not that it´s an excuse, just saying.

A local guy just bought a custom tank from them, and from what I could tell the quality was better than my ADA tank.


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## volatile (Feb 13, 2007)

Matsnork said:


> I have purchased several items from NA in the last couple of months, and I have never experienced better customer service anywhere, and I´m a picky customer.
> Must be a temporary thing, they are most likely busy with the transition. Not that it´s an excuse, just saying.
> 
> A local guy just bought a custom tank from them, and from what I could tell the quality was better than my ADA tank.


But ADG has only recently bought/are still in the process of buying NA, so they didn't have anything to do with the customer service you experienced. Only time will tell if the customer service continues to be good after the ownership change.


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## Matsnork (Jun 3, 2013)

volatile said:


> But ADG has only recently bought/are still in the process of buying NA, so they didn't have anything to do with the customer service you experienced. Only time will tell if the customer service continues to be good after the ownership change.


Yes, we can only speculate. I hope, rather selfishly, that the european service level will be unchanged


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

Guess we will have to wait it out and see


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

For anyone anticipating the releases... It is in no way cheaper than ADA.. Same price for an exact copy. why not just get ADA!?


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## volatile (Feb 13, 2007)

jsenske said:


> All will be revealed soon. Rest assured you should be excited, not skeptical. We wouldn't put our name behind (or on) a product that wasn't truly exceptional. And if it wasn't going to be substantially less expensive than ADA,
> I wouldn't even bother.
> 
> -Jeff





jsenske said:


> And forget whatever you've seen or know of NA products pricing. We have a whole new margin structure and dealer programs, and I think you're going to like it a lot. Stay tuned and thanks for your time.





Pg92 said:


> For anyone anticipating the releases... It is in no way cheaper than ADA.. Same price for an exact copy. why not just get ADA!?


Did you get actual pricing from Jeff or are you just speculating again? Granted, it is frustrating when he says "stay tuned" and then nothing for 3 weeks about NA, yet they find time to post photo shoots of new layouts and their ADA Aquasky knockoff light on Facebook.


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

Actually pricing. 

For the 65cm setup it will cost $2199

Includes -

Stand ( simple stained wood that he was sure to add "makes Ada's look like garbage")
Tank (comes with lid and mat)
Filter( iwaki pump now)
Light arm
Light( 6 bulb with two cords so you can run at half power)


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

It is what it is, but it's the business method that is lacking more than anything else. Not that I'm out to bash these guys for any particular reason as I loved doing business with them (when it was frank) but it is ridiculous how things are being done on there end now. And there's no excuse for it because it was happening before they started going through all this change in brand and I'm sure it will continue also. As far as the prices being so low that he was excited.... There literally is no difference what so ever.


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## volatile (Feb 13, 2007)

Pg92 said:


> Actually pricing.
> 
> For the 65cm setup it will cost $2199
> 
> ...


65cm? Is that the same as 60-P? If so, that pricing is pretty disappointing. I do think that their stands seem way more functional than ADA's with the slide out drawers. Is the light LED or what? I guess that rules out the 90cm and 120cm for me. =(


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

It's 65 cm vs 60cm so very slight difference, and sorry to disappoint but the 65cm wood stand doesn't even come with shelves or anything..(unless that changed) That's only the larger ones.


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

Where are you getting this information? I checked the website and didn't see it.


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

Couesfanatic said:


> Where are you getting this information? I checked the website and didn't see it.


Of course you didn't hahah you think they actually updated it?? And Jeff himself told me this through an email.


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## ThatGuyWithTheFish (Apr 29, 2012)

That would be about the same price as a 60P setup without shipping.


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> That would be about the same price as a 60P setup without shipping.


My point exactly... Not to mention that's a 60p setup with a glass stand at that.


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## volatile (Feb 13, 2007)

Pg92 said:


> It's 65 cm vs 60cm so very slight difference, and sorry to disappoint but the 65cm wood stand doesn't even come with shelves or anything..(unless that changed) That's only the larger ones.


Hmm. I checked the website, and it looks like they only have the Movel Wide stand now, which has no slide out shelves. Unless I'm clicking on the wrong thing, the other type of stand seems to be completely gone from the website? If they purposely removed it, does it mean that they will no longer carry it? :icon_cry:


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## Matsnork (Jun 3, 2013)

Pg92 said:


> Actually pricing.
> 
> For the 65cm setup it will cost $2199
> 
> ...


If you would translate that into ADA pricing there would be quite a difference. When I bought NA stuff with the original EU pricing, the stands and tanks were very affordable, thats why I went with the elite cabinet. 
The lighting and other more intricate items were not as cost effective but still way cheaper than ADA. The ADA filter alone is 1900usd here in Europe so a complete NA setup for 2200usd doesnt sound to be way out there.


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## ThatGuyWithTheFish (Apr 29, 2012)

Matsnork said:


> If you would translate that into ADA pricing there would be quite a difference. When I bought NA stuff with the original EU pricing, the stands and tanks were very affordable, thats why I went with the elite cabinet.
> The lighting and other more intricate items were not as cost effective but still way cheaper than ADA. The ADA filter alone is 1900usd here in Europe so a complete NA setup for 2200usd doesnt sound to be way out there.


Yeah, but we're talking about prices in the US. Countries tax imports heavily because they want to promote their own business. In Japan, many ADA products are often a full third cheaper than in the US. And now that NA is a US-owned company, I wouldn't be surprised if the prices in the EU increase.


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Yeah, but we're talking about prices in the US. Countries tax imports heavily because they want to promote their own business. In Japan, many ADA products are often a full third cheaper than in the US. And now that NA is a US-owned company, I wouldn't be surprised if the prices in the EU increase.


Yep


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## Matsnork (Jun 3, 2013)

Got euro pricing from NA and they are the same as for the US. Hope they will reconsider only selling complete systems.


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## jo.jacques (Dec 2, 2013)

So if I understand, if I am looking to buy ONLY the Steelflow, it won't be possible?


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

No it will not be


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## volatile (Feb 13, 2007)

Just search for steel inflow pipes on ebay and you can get a set for $114-$150. Some of them even come with built in surface skimmers.


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

You can get ada set for that price as well


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## datsunissan28 (Sep 27, 2013)

The original pricing for the Steel Flow was very reasonable. I paid 49 euros before tax and shipping. Even with both of those it was under $120 with shipping from Portugal to Ohio. 

I haven't seen the other stainless filter pipes in person, but my NA pipes are excellent and feel very solid. 





I think I received one of the last production run before ADG got involved.


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

They would be worth it at that price surely, now maybe not so much especially since they aren't sold separately - might have changed but updates only come every 6-8 months so who knows


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## Italionstallion888 (Jun 29, 2013)

is there a benefit to the SS pipes besides aethstetics?


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

Italionstallion888 said:


> is there a benefit to the SS pipes besides aethstetics?


Won't break if you aren't careful and you don't really need to clean them. I prefer glass because I think they look better but they do need more maintenance


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## datsunissan28 (Sep 27, 2013)

I have both glass lily pipes and these. I like the look of stainless better and you don't have to clean them perfectly like glass. The main reason I went with NA was because these pipes extend all the way into the stand. With my glass lily pipes I don't like seeing the actual hose that connects them. If the lines aren't set perfectly it really detracts from the clean look I'm going for


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## Matsnork (Jun 3, 2013)

I´m having a bit of trouble with the suction cups that came with my NA pipes, looking around to find replacement cups that stay in place. Anyone know if the they can be had in clear/white silicone (same as the black ones that come with eheim classic filters)?


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## maxwellag (Mar 30, 2012)

I was just on the phone with Jeff. He told me the estimated prices for the sets: 
65cm-$2,199 
90cm-$2,599
120cm-$3,599 

He said they're planning on having the first sets up for sale around the end of February.


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## AnotherHobby (Mar 5, 2012)

jo.jacques said:


> So if I understand, if I am looking to buy ONLY the Steelflow, it won't be possible?





Pg92 said:


> No it will not be


Wow... This is a complete disappointment (and a bad move) if you ask me. One thing I've learned about the whole aquarium community is that people really mix and match the exact parts they want, and often over time. If I *had* to buy a complete system from once place, I wouldn't. I would just choose other pieces.

I wish them luck.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

AnotherHobby said:


> Wow... This is a complete disappointment (and a bad move) if you ask me. One thing I've learned about the whole aquarium community is that people really mix and match the exact parts they want, and often over time. If I *had* to buy a complete system from once place, I wouldn't. I would just choose other pieces.
> 
> I wish them luck.


+1.

Not many will spring for 2200$+, vs say 100$ for a SS in/outflow set.
Limits the market a great deal. But that might not be the priority for ADG, they might be focusing more for their own needs locally and if folks on line want to buy......then sure.

It's a tough business to promote and do well for your time/energy for the return $. If you have 20 employees locally and doing a lot of $, why bother with on line business headaches? I don't know.......

I'll have to cut some business on line off/out once I get an academic position. It's worth while for me to do so. The headache they got from ADA.....well........not worth it for them.

Totally understand that angle.


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

Agreed with Tom. ADG's primary business is setting up and maintaining high end aquariums for local customers. Now they will have access to their own high end equipment that they can use for clients. 

The secondary online sales are not a huge priority for them as I'd imagine 80%+ of their profits come from local clients.


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## Centromochlus (May 19, 2008)

Agreed with all of the above posts. While i'm sure the sets will be fantastic, it would be disappointing if they were to not offer products separately.
+1 to the prices seeming really high... not exactly a "cost-effective" alternative to ADA like they were claiming.


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

Centromochlus said:


> Agreed with all of the above posts. While i'm sure the sets will be fantastic, it would be disappointing if they were to not offer products separately.
> +1 to the prices seeming really high... not exactly a "cost-effective" alternative to ADA like they were claiming.


I couldn't agree more....off to AFA's website now.


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

It's almost like some of you thought ADG would do what they were claiming.... 

IMO absolutely no reason to buy any of there stuff when you can buy the original (not exact knockoff) for the same price.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Well, 2 companies need to see eye to eye in terms of their business and marketing approaches. That was never really the case with the two.
So it's best for everyone I'd think the way things are now.

Now we have another company bring in products.
I suppose you could still get the individual products if you pay for out of country shipping.

That would not compete with the full tank set ups. And stuff breaks and needs replacing too.


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## volatile (Feb 13, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> Well, 2 companies need to see eye to eye in terms of their business and marketing approaches. That was never really the case with the two.
> So it's best for everyone I'd think the way things are now.
> 
> Now we have another company bring in products.
> ...


Except with AFA as the only official licensed distributor of ADA now, we are at their mercy as they can probably charge whatever they want for ADA products.


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## Nice (Jan 24, 2012)

Matsnork said:


> If you would translate that into ADA pricing there would be quite a difference. When I bought NA stuff with the original EU pricing, the stands and tanks were very affordable, thats why I went with the elite cabinet.
> The lighting and other more intricate items were not as cost effective but still way cheaper than ADA. The ADA filter alone is 1900usd here in Europe so a complete NA setup for 2200usd doesn't sound to be way out there.



Hello Matsnork, and as you know i have 2 NA systems running.

I' ve read people comparing the ADA 60P with NA 65, and that is incomparable in all ways.

NA is cheaper, better and more powerful.

ADA 60P = 60x30x36cm = 64,8 L

NA 65 = 65x40x45cm = 117 L ( oh right is actual almost double the water volume) CAME on guys are you blind?

ADA 60P wood cabinet = 60x30x70cm ( so tiny wood cabinet, my kid can lift it, and actually can get inside the NA wood cabinet). If i ever by a ADA wood cabinet, i would hide it inside a NA wood cabinet)

NA 65 wood cabinet = 65x40x85cm ( just need to see them side by side, and literally NA cabinet swallow ADA wood cabinet at lunch time)

NA light for the 65 SUN LED = 11340 lumen on LED

ADA stronger light ever Grand Solar 250 = 20000 lumen on HQI (that is the only that can compete with NA)

ADA light with aquasky 602 = 5700 Lumen on LED


What was the question?

IS the 60P comparable with NA 65?

Right! the answer is NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOO.

Sorry to ADA lovers, i meant to cause you a heart attack.


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

Nice said:


> Hello Matsnork, and as you know i have 2 NA systems running.
> 
> I' ve read people comparing the ADA 60P with NA 65, and that is incomparable in all ways.
> 
> ...



Would still buy the more expensive ADA due to one fact that you forgot to mention.... ADA earned there name, they didn't copy it in every blatantly possible way as NA has.


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## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

Pg92 said:


> Would still buy the more expensive ADA due to one fact that you forgot to mention.... ADA earned there name, they didn't copy it in every blatantly possible way as NA has.


You can go ahead and burn your money for the ADA sticker, when I see something that is better quality/best bang for buck as Nice has pointed out ill always go for the smarter choice. Also to your idea that ADG "copying" ADA "great poets imitate and improve, whereas small ones steal and spoil" What I see ADA doing is taking an existing product and improving upon it. Its not a copy at all as again shown by Nice's post.


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## Pg92 (Nov 23, 2013)

lamiskool said:


> You can go ahead and burn your money for the ADA sticker, when I see something that is better quality/best bang for buck as Nice has pointed out ill always go for the smarter choice. Also to your idea that ADG "copying" ADA "great poets imitate and improve, whereas small ones steal and spoil" What I see ADA doing is taking an existing product and improving upon it. Its not a copy at all as again shown by Nice's post.



Never said ADG copied them but I'm glad you pointed that out... Now you can go check there Facebook and see the picture of the aquasky knock off they made for a 90p. 

Was the aquasky design present before amano put it out? NO. 

Did ADG ever have one before they got them from ADA? NO. 

Did they come out with one to fit the 90p after they realized the popularity and sales of the design that amano designed for the small systems? YES


Whenever a design for a light such as the aquasky or solar series for that matter is blatantly copied and sold under a different name and price it is a knockoff. The DESIGN is an exact copy, if you deny that you are simply lying to yourself. 

And since you really think this isn't a knockoff here's a little back info that you more than likely aren't aware of :

The designer of the NA brand was a guy who tried to carry ADA and was denied so he then made something similar to compete with ADA, just like what ADG is doing with there knockoff aquasky for the 90p. If you think he decided to build a stainless steel filter that (with the exception of the pump position) looked just like the superjet from ADA then you are a fool. 

Why do you think ADA changed there logo?? For fun? They did it because people were selling knock off products of what they sell and passing there name as ADAs. Look at viv or whatever it is, the logo is so close to the old ADA one that people would buy if solely to make others think it was ADA.

Each person is entitled to there own opinion but the bottom line is that if something or someone is successful others will always try to get there hand in the market. Some like GLA and CalAqua Labs make similar products but of a different design... 


That is competition and is good the market. I respect people who try to come out and make money but without stealing someone else's idea, also have you ever tried to deal with ADG? They are a croc to try and deal with and customer service is some of the worse. The only time I can say that I was acknowledged as a customer was when I had cash in hand. They don't update the website, they don't update stock, they don't update there customers.... Yet have time to make and upload videos to Facebook?


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## maxwellag (Mar 30, 2012)

Who cares if it's a knockoff? I think it's too soon to be comparing to ADA. In the end, it doesn't matter who designed it first. The company that made it first tends to charge more for it than knock off companies. It gives the end user better prices because the knockoffs compete with the originals. There's no use in arguing over which one is better or which one is "original". To each their own.


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## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

Pg92 said:


> That is competition and is good the market. I respect people who try to come out and make money but without stealing someone else's idea


Could not have said it better then maxwellag, and like I said before im fine with other innovators building off of other ideas/products. Thats what in the end breeds better products and even other inventions. If ADG/NA copies some ADA designs and ideas and build on it to make it better and the price is comparable/cheaper its a no brainer for me which product is better


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

yes, but NA is not cheaper


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## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

thats why I threw in the if


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

It's pretty apparent that some of you are devoted ADA customers and will fight to the death to defend every product or idea that they have. But why the need to flat out bash a company or product just because you happen to be a ADA fanboy. What concern is it of yours if ADG chose to take their business in a different direction with a product that is in competition with a brand that you use. Some of you seem to have a personal vendetta towards ADG or NA. WHY?

If you don't like there products or business ethics then take your money somewhere else. That's whats great about living in a free world. You can choose where to spend your hard earned dollars, even if that means buying overpriced magical additives. Businesses copy other companies products all the time so why is there such a problem if a company wants to make a product similar to the one that you use. 

Some people like to drink Coke and some people like Pepsi. How dare Pepsi copy Coke and try to get a piece of the cola drinking market.:angryfire


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

People are just curious with anticipation. Also some lackluster service sparking some debate here and there.

Personally, I was hoping for a good competitor to keep prices and selection down. With the whole systems approach, I feel like the prices will remain high with both Ada and NA. It's unfortunate IMO, hopefully Aquatop keeps innovating.


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## prighello (Aug 19, 2007)

Couesfanatic said:


> It's unfortunate IMO, hopefully Aquatop keeps innovating.


Yeah, be interesting to see them get into CO2. I just received one of their low iron cubes and it's pretty nice the price.


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## maxwellag (Mar 30, 2012)

Mr. Aqua and CAD lights have some potential to take more of the market too. They're usually cheaper.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I think I'll just go with a 3D printer and make my own stuff. :tongue:


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## prighello (Aug 19, 2007)

maxwellag said:


> Mr. Aqua and CAD lights have some potential to take more of the market too. They're usually cheaper.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


IRRC, Finnex and Cad Lights were very similar 5-7 years ago but Finnex went in a different direction. Maybe due to acquisition? 

Anyway, yeah there are definitely opportunities to develop a product line that lives between ADA/NA and the run of the mill pet store stuff.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

well I think most of these products are becoming more of a commodity-type product anyway and it will be more marketing than anything to make a difference. So one will need deep pockets for that.

One thing you can't take away from ADA is their ability to ignite new aqua niches. If it wasn't for them, the minimalist look would never have started. So I'm not sure how much you can knock a company like that. Many of the products are good, but great credit to where it started. Reminds me of all the people that knock Apple, many made fun of the "IPAD" when first introduced, how many tablets were there available to the mass consumer before the IPAD? How many touch screen smart phones before the IPhone to the mass consumer market?


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## Matsnork (Jun 3, 2013)

Does anyone know what the US pricing is for the complete ADA systems? Would be fun to know. I´m talking about: Tank, cabinet, filtration, piping, lighting, hanging kit etc. 

If I ever buy a house then a aquavas 180 system is very plausable, if ever re-launched that is.


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## volatile (Feb 13, 2007)

So anyone visit ADG in person and see the NA stuff yet? Are they going to stop offering the stands with the slide out shelves (that was removed from the website)? The picture below is from Practical Fishkeeping forums.


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## maxwellag (Mar 30, 2012)

Matsnork said:


> Does anyone know what the US pricing is for the complete ADA systems? Would be fun to know. I´m talking about: Tank, cabinet, filtration, piping, lighting, hanging kit etc.
> 
> If I ever buy a house then a aquavas 180 system is very plausable, if ever re-launched that is.


Already posted if you had looked a few pages back...


maxwellag said:


> I was just on the phone with Jeff. He told me the estimated prices for the sets:
> 65cm-$2,199
> 90cm-$2,599
> 120cm-$3,599
> ...


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

houseofcards said:


> well I think most of these products are becoming more of a commodity-type product anyway and it will be more marketing than anything to make a difference. So one will need deep pockets for that.
> 
> One thing you can't take away from ADA is their ability to ignite new aqua niches. If it wasn't for them, the minimalist look would never have started. So I'm not sure how much you can knock a company like that. Many of the products are good, but great credit to where it started. Reminds me of all the people that knock Apple, many made fun of the "IPAD" when first introduced, how many tablets were there available to the mass consumer before the IPAD? How many touch screen smart phones before the IPhone to the mass consumer market?


Pretty pictures sell 1000X more than any product line or talk.

ADA is based on photography.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> Pretty pictures sell 1000X more than any product line or talk.
> 
> ADA is based on photography.


Well, what company doesn't sell an aesthetic type product without good photography. The 'launch' of that aesthetic probably started with the photography in the Natural Aquarium World Books, but the design/idea is still there. Everything being minimal (clear) so all you see is water, plants, fish, hardscape. Most of us would not be have frameless tanks with lily pipes under suspending lighting if it wasn't for a ADA. I'm no fan boy, but give credit where it's due.


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Jan 16, 2013)

It was bound to happen with or without Takashi Amano's help. Planted tanks have been around since the 19th century. I'm thrilled with all these new company's that are coming out making more affordable minimalist tanks.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

CrypticLifeStyle said:


> It was bound to happen with or without Takashi Amano's help. Planted tanks have been around since the 19th century. I'm thrilled with all these new company's that are coming out making more affordable minimalist tanks.


Well that's pure speculation. Even if it was 'bound' to happen anyway it might have been a year from now, 10, 100 which wouldn't do anyone on the forum any good right now. What's certain is that ADA created the design and then the flood gates opened.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

houseofcards said:


> Well, what company doesn't sell an aesthetic type product without good photography. The 'launch' of that aesthetic probably started with the photography in the Natural Aquarium World Books, but the design/idea is still there. Everything being minimal (clear) so all you see is water, plants, fish, hardscape. Most of us would not be have frameless tanks with lily pipes under suspending lighting if it wasn't for a ADA. I'm no fan boy, but give credit where it's due.


Good photo's can out sell any one else's stuff, regardless. 
Teh design itself is not the novel aspect, it's usign Japanese gardening style in aquatic plant tanks that was novel, then excellent photoskills and every month, every year, lots more. 

Not Dutch style company does this, not other styles or companies have this many high grade photos. This is what markets and promotes it, without that, I do not think we'd see near as much, nor have said books 1,2 etc, nor ADA vendors all over the world. Dupla tried and did so so. They put out a book or two, they promoted it, but nothing like ADA.

I do not buy this argument, central to ADA's success is the photo's. You can have the best ideas around, but without some promotion and high grade photo's, not much will get done. 

ADA has produced far more of that type of marketing than any other company period. It is central to the success.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

It should also be noted that Amano is a photographer, and a pretty good one at that. He's an artist regardless of the tools and media he uses. Combine his artistic sensibilities with his products and you'll have a huge influence over perceptions. Beauty sells regardless of their function. People should realize just how important this point is and how much they'll bend over backward to accommodate the product. This is also Apple's philosophy.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> Good photo's can out sell any one else's stuff, regardless.
> Teh design itself is not the novel aspect, it's usign Japanese gardening style in aquatic plant tanks that was novel, then excellent photoskills and every month, every year, lots more.
> 
> Not Dutch style company does this, not other styles or companies have this many high grade photos. This is what markets and promotes it, without that, I do not think we'd see near as much, nor have said books 1,2 etc, nor ADA vendors all over the world. Dupla tried and did so so. They put out a book or two, they promoted it, but nothing like ADA.
> ...


No disagreement on the importance of photography, but the photography didn't make the frames of the tank disappear or light raise above the tank, or the glass lily pipes. I understand of course the artistic gardening value, but they don't manufacture that. They're selling hardware. The true inspiration was forests in different parts of the world that he felt can be reproduced on a smaller footprint was it not, of course the Japanese gardening techniques you mentioned played a key role as well.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> It should also be noted that Amano is a photographer, and a pretty good one at that. He's an artist regardless of the tools and media he uses. Combine his artistic sensibilities with his products and you'll have a huge influence over perceptions. Beauty sells regardless of their function. People should realize just how important this point is and how much they'll bend over backward to accommodate the product. This is also Apple's philosophy.


No disagreement. Amano was a nature photographer before I believe ADA even started. I'm pretty sure he is credited with the photographs in the Nature Aquarium World Books that were stunning and led people to believe they can reproduce this in their homes. 

Either way ADA, Apple they still deserve the credit for opening new niches that are being served by many companies.


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## Green_Flash (Apr 15, 2012)

plantbrain said:


> Pretty pictures sell 1000X more than any product line or talk.
> 
> ADA is based on photography.


 It is based on aquascaping and overall aesthetic . But with a portion also on good photography.


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## egoalterna (Jun 17, 2012)

houseofcards said:


> No disagreement on the importance of photography, but the photography didn't make the frames of the tank disappear or light raise above the tank, or the glass lily pipes. I understand of course the artistic gardening value, but they don't manufacture that. They're selling hardware. The true inspiration was forests in different parts of the world that he felt can be reproduced on a smaller footprint was it not, of course the Japanese gardening techniques you mentioned played a key role as well.


+1
There must be more to ADA besides pretty pictures if they continue to sell to this day. Give credit where credit is due. No more, no less.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

egoalterna said:


> +1
> There must be more to ADA besides pretty pictures if they continue to sell to this day. Give credit where credit is due. No more, no less.


Maybe the same reasons why people still by Mercedes-Benz, even through there are, arguably, equivalent or even better cars available at lower prices.

v3


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## egoalterna (Jun 17, 2012)

OVT said:


> Maybe the same reasons why people still by Mercedes-Benz, even through there are, arguably, equivalent or even better cars available at lower prices.
> 
> v3


I agree.
But do you think all of ADA's success was because of their pretty pictures?


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

egoalterna said:


> I agree.
> But do you think all of ADA's success was because of their pretty pictures?


Advertising works. Just ask Google and people on Madison.


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## egoalterna (Jun 17, 2012)

So is it a yes or no?
I'm not talking about price here. Did ADA not earn their respect or was just because they had pretty pictures?


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Jan 16, 2013)

What crosses my head is did ADA invent rimless tanks, pretty sure no. Did ADA invent lilly pipes, pretty sure no, but i have no idea. Did ADA invent hanging lights, no. Did ADA invent streamline furniture to be used as stands, no. What you have is a artist, photographer, designer, aquariast who obviously has a eye for image. Was he honestly the first person ever to put together a minimalist tank setup together with already existing products, ideas? No idea, but it was his artistic-design side accompanied with great photography skills, and him being published that put him in the spotlight over 2 decades ago. 
I wouldn't say innovative as some others would say innovative. I view innovative as a form of engineering, and him as creative as in artistic. If it wasn't him it was going to be someone else, that just common sense. We have rovers on mars, we're talking fish tanks with plants in it. 

Sure he gets respect for his role in that, but you really are paying for a image, and paying a lot for that image. I'm not anti-ADA, just my opinion.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

CrypticLifeStyle said:


> .. *If it wasn't him it was going to be someone else*, that just common sense. We have rovers on mars, we're talking fish tanks with plants in it....


You keep repeating this, but how do you give credit to something that didn't happen yet, We know however he did it, put it together and opened the niche. Everything else is pure speculation. My point was all these mass produced products that are featured on nature aquariums happened after ADA, not before. It's irrelevant who actually created the first lily pipe or frameless tank unless your opening a 'Museum of Nature Aquarium History' 

Apple opened huge markets by bringing touchscreen smart phones and tablets, pretty common belief that they didn't invent the technology, but they did create the mass market for everyone else to follow. They made the investment before others would. And only after it sold, did other's take the plunge.


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## jsenske (Dec 20, 2004)

Hi everyone. 
Whew. Ok- let me update and explain a few things. 

First, let me post my personal email as well as my personal cell phone number:

[email protected] and (281)924-8894. Sometimes the main number for ADG is answered by an answering service. That number really has no relationship to our retail store or the forthcoming AQUAVAS product line (formerly NA). I have also just established a new email for AQUAVAS which is:

[email protected] 

I need to complete configuring that to come to my main inbox and that should be done tomorrow. I have NEVER personally marked anyone's email as spam, but I know that recently the ADG server was made more "spam sensitive" by our IT guy as actual spam emails were way out of control. I HATE that anyone's email may have bounced back or I not receive it due to this, and if course with the new product line venture we will be on a separate server/system altogether. 
That said, we aren't perfect by a long shot and are still a relatively small company and we do make mistakes. Of course we want to help and serve everyone interested in our products and services, and would never knowingly dodge or avoid doing so. Please never hesitate to call me personally. It's my pleasure to help. Especially if you feel you haven't received a prompt reply to an email. 
As far as AQUAVAS and the "lack of updates", well of course I am to blame for that, but honestly I'm not sure what exactly everyone would like to know and I probably assume too much. Basically everything is moving forward and pretty
Close to the target for launch, though there has been a few delays as we work out some final production kinks, obviously want those last details buttoned up before launching a line that we know good and well will be under a lot of scrutiny. 
So it's not that I'm dodging updates or trying to be lazy or secretive or anything like that. But rather I figured the general news was out there, and when we launch, well it moves forward from there. That said, please let me know the nature of "update info" you'd like to see, and I will provide it on a more regular basis. Honestly I didn't think there was much exciting news and that once the new website was up, all would be clear. Regardless I'm happy to provide any info I can at any time. And really- call me if you want an immediate response. I don't mind! 
In summary: we are looking at more of a late March release. We had to go back and re-make some lights that has a minor flaw that I just couldn't let slide, minor as it was. 
Regarding pricing- well it is what it is after all! But really, there's a complicated discussion here that involves a lot of backstory and connecting the dots that is all really quite boring. So essentially, all of our models and bigger than what see like the equivalent ADA tank. So if your goal is compare AQUAVAS to ADA from a price standpoint, well size does matter! So think 90-H and 120H over 90P and 120P. Our 65cm is closer In volume to an ADA 75P. BUT! The biggest difference is that our retail price is created with retail shops in mind. They will have the ability to make a.... PROFIT. I know that can be a dirty word sometimes , but that's what it takes for them to stay in and grow their business. The reason you don't see ADA in many aquarium shops is that the margins simply are not there. There's more to it, but that's the gist of it. 
That said, price out a full ADA system of the equivalent volume and you'll see the AQUAVAS product is lower priced, and fairly significantly. But the bigger problem is that you can't even easily get say a 90cm ADA stand in the US. AFA doesn't keep many around I suspect for the same reason we didn't- they are VERY expensive and you can't sell it for enough to justify the overhead or it's have to be about $2,000.00 so the margins aren't there and that's discouraging for the distributor as well as a potential retail store. From sheer availability it's really tough to put together a full ADA system and really, it's not what ADA in the US has ever really been about. It's about Aqua Soil mainly- which is AWESOME and we continue to use it exclusively (we won't be doing a substrate like because you can't do better than ADA at this point in time). 

There's more but maybe I'll take a breather here and see if there's any specifics I can address that you'd like to know rather than me babbling on ! ;-)


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## jsenske (Dec 20, 2004)

Let me add also regarding my rather poorly executed "customer service manifesto" some has referenced and even called a joke:
I hear you! It was not really put in the right context and I am admittedly no savvy marketeer or PR guy. What I was trying to say is that when AQUAVAS launches, like once we have the site up (it won't be adgshop.com by the way- that site is dead) and once we start start offering real product, that the dedication is going to be there in a way that I know for a fact it was not with our ADA products distribution. It's a lame excuse from a custome POV, I know- but it was a real struggle with ADA because honestly we just didn't make money on it. It was a very narrow margin game that really the international distributors do more for the prestige and cool factor of having ADA- not so much because it's a good business model. The products would need to be a lot more expensive on the retail end for it to make any sense- except for Aqua Soil. There's some room with that product, but as for the rest of the line- it's very tough. 
The problem becomes that we are a small company with a few guys trying really hard everyday to make a lot of things happen and the investment needed to bring ADA distribution to the level it needed to be wasn't justifiable by the margins and sales numbers. It becomes a vicious cycle of sorts. 
So my point with the "manifesto"was to say that the AQUAVAS venture is different in every way. We have capital, we have resources, we have a whole separate company established for AQUAVAS. It's not a couple trying to get ADA orders out the door everyday in between doing 10 other things completely unrelated. 
In hindsight I should framed the connect better and perhaps putting that statement up on adgshop.com and so far before AQUAVAS was ready to launch was not the best call. 
That said, again, please reach out to me personally anytime and I am confident with the [email protected] email there shouldn't be any of the spam issues some reported having. 
Of course I care and of course I want to provide great service and of course I want to bring a cool new products to market for the advancement of the hobby. The point was to say that I know we (I) have not been perfect and that with the launch of this line there will be a different dedication and resource set that hopefully earns the respect of those who may currently hold a less than stellar opinion of ADG from past experience. Hopefully there's some context to it all. If not, I absolutely understand that it's on us to not just make BS statements but to prove it to everyone —and I very much intend to do so. 
If between "manifesto" time and now you've had a bad experience (there hasn't been very many sales honestly, but even if it's just a few)- please contact me directly and allow me a chance to make it right for you, or at least extend a cool offer that you can take or leave.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

This has turned into one big vendor review, which is not permitted. 

Thread closed.


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