# Growing Skeleton King (Achilles) Bucephalandra



## Centromochlus

From what Peter Boyce (a botanist who specializes in Aroids) has told me, _Bucephalandra kishii_ ("skeleton king") is a species that can not be grown completely submerged.


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## HybridHerp

wait really? no that makes me sad


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## Ericj

I've tried Skeleton king 5 different times completely submerged. 2 times it's completely melted, leaves and rhizome. 2 times it lost all the leaves, but the rhizome keeps putting out leaves which last a couple weeks before also melting. 1 plant I have which seems to be growing successful submerged, however the growth is FAR different from the growth you're normally used to seeing, much smaller leaves, no ridges.

So it seems there is a rare chance it can convert to submerged growth, but the result is nothing impressive.

On the bright side, it does sometimes take a while for the leaves to melt, so if you want the look in your tank for a month or two...go for it. I know, that's a really crappy bright side


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## HybridHerp

I have to ask then, what other buces cannot be fully submerged? Can green skeleton king submerge?


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## Ericj

I haven't found any others personally which don't grow submerged. Penelope is the closest I've had, but it still grows, just very very slowly under water. From what I can tell, Green is a bit better (that's the one I have that survived and is kind of growing submerged), but still not great.

But speaking of Skeleton King, even emersed it is apparently a pain to grow, needs very specific humidity and light or will rot/burn etc... Just a hard hard plant to make happy.


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## r45t4m4n

Both my skeleton king melted the original ridged leaves, then grew small 'normal' looking leaves, like it was no longer skeleton king. I added it to my emersed setup a couple days ago and it has already sprouted a new 'proper' leaf.

I plan on taking all my submersed buce and converting them to emersed for a move I am making in the next couple months. They also grow faster emersed from what I have read as well so I hope to have a lot to propagate to my shrimp tanks next year.

BTW, all my penelope practically died due to slow growth and algae. I added them to my emersed tank as well, hopefully it turns the corner.


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## AaronT

I have had both as well and have experienced the same slow deterioration with both the green and the dark forms. The dark one definitely melts faster. I just tossed the last of it the other day. It's too bad really. It's quite a striking plant.


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## Acro

What time frame did it take for the Skeleton King leaves to melt for you?


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## AaronT

Acro said:


> What time frame did it take for the Skeleton King leaves to melt for you?


It took quite a while for me. They melted right away when I first got it and I suspect what I received was emersed growth. Then they grew back smaller for a couple of months and then they started slowly dying off again after that.


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## ikuzo

check out this link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0ulJOTOdjo&list=UUP1w4mxcy1pTOQ16ml4ZTnQ

there are lots of SK there. probably that's how to plant it but not sure how long they survive. mine melted in a few days a while ago


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## Acro

I don't want to jinx myself by typing this, but I've been keeping Skeleton King (Achilles) Green and Skeleton King (Achilles) Dark for about 7 months with success.

I got Skeleton King (Achilles) Dark on 10/19/14, Skeleton King (Achilles) Green on 10/23/14 and a 2nd Skeleton King (Achilles) Dark on 11/22/14. The first Dark and Green had a few large characteristic veined leaves that were older, but the newer leaves were smaller and smoother. The 2nd Dark came "acclimated" and only had smaller, less veined leaves. All three sellers, I got the plants from, claimed that the plants were acclimated, as they had them for several months before selling. 

When I got the plants, I set them up in a quarantine tub (like I always do with new plants). Then I had some life issues arise, and the plants were neglected for a few months. They sat in the quarantine tub with no carbon, no fertilizer and only low light from a window. Some snails (bladder, ramshorn) had hitchhiked with the plants. The large older leaves on the Green and first Dark began to melt, but the newer leaves didn't change. The plants stayed like this for several more months. The snails lived off of the dead leaves, I didn't feed them.

About a month or two ago, I moved all three Skeleton King (Achilles) into a 55 gallon aquarium. They sat in a floating "breeder" with a few ramshorn snails placed in with them to help keep off algae. The change didn't seem to affect them negatively and new leaves are starting to emerge. About a week ago, I finally mounted them on some "rock work" with superglue gel. 

The "life issues" I was going through have passed and I plan to give the Skeleton Kings regular fertilizer and liquid carbon. I wonder if this will effect their growth in a positive or negative way. I will update on how things go.

Now it's your turn. What have your new experiences been with Skeleton King (Achilles) Dark and Skeleton King (Achilles) Green ? Have there been any successes since I made the first post? Any failures to report?

And I recently found out, the scientific name for this plant is Bucephalandra kishii. I don't know if it is for Green, Dark or both.


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## JoraaÑ

Since the day 1 I have always grown this sp. underwater and still have 1 Skeleton King (Achilles) Dark.


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## serenityfate

Same as joraan. Mines never melyed in my low tech shrimp tank. Although the leaves take forever to grow "big" it always put out new leaves though.


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## Acro

JoraaÑ said:


> Since the day 1 I have always grown this sp. underwater and still have 1 Skeleton King (Achilles) Dark.


And I got one of my Darks from you! How long have you been growing yours?



serenityfate said:


> Same as joraan. Mines never melyed in my low tech shrimp tank. Although the leaves take forever to grow "big" it always put out new leaves though.


How "big" is big? And are they heavily veined or smooth? How long have you been growing yours?


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## inka4041

Any further updates on this? Acro, how's the growth been in the past 2 months? Just bought a bunch of these not knowing their reputation for rotting under water, and now scrambling to see whether I should set up some new digs for them, or just chance it in the tank.


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## plantbrain

I have one from a year or two ago. Small, nothing like the nice large black type I got, those are emergent. The Green types seem to do better submersed. 
Plenty of more suitable plants out there. 

My advice is do not waste your money. 
The broad darker leaf creepers are much nicer.
There are some that have larger leaves and near just as dark, but......not with the veins but you lose those anyhow. 

So then it's more an issue of more upright growth form vs a creeping growth form. 

B. catherine is also a more upright growth form with a darker color and a nice ruffle leaf margin. After about 6 months, they get pretty large under high light, rich CO2/ferts etc.

There are options, I would not bother or beat your head over this plant. 
Does well emergent though. 

About the only Buce that does not thrive submersed I've found. 
If you are good with the greener colorations, then you are fine, there's also a few other more suited similar shaped species that are green and have that upright growth form, but they are not the black color like Catherine and some of the others. 

SAE's, shrimp, rich ferts, sediment ferts/soil if you add them to soil..........CO2, light can be wide ranging, but moderate to low might be best, cooler temps, water changes, they are quite easy to grow.

If they get algae or BBA, SAE's are a good solution and then also use window screening to block a specific area of the tank where they are at if you need a split light intensity. 

I keep Tonina in 1/2 under full light and then use screen to block the other 1/2 of the tank.

Work nicely.


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## Acro

inka4041 said:


> Any further updates on this? Acro, how's the growth been in the past 2 months? Just bought a bunch of these not knowing their reputation for rotting under water, and now scrambling to see whether I should set up some new digs for them, or just chance it in the tank.


The plants were sprouting new leaves and roots. Unfortunately I was draining my aquarium and got distracted. The plants got a bit dry and this caused the new roots to die off. The old roots weren't affected.

The plants are still alive and starting to grow new roots and continue to sprout new leaves. I keep them about 10 inches away from the surface of the water where they get good light and decent water movement. 

So far they have not produced the large, heavily veined leaves as emergent grown plants do. However, they are still beautiful and I enjoy them. 

If anyone is having trouble growing them, and wants to part with theirs, I'll gladly trade or buy it.


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## Morbo

I have two dark achilles plants that are growing in one of my tanks. It took a few months for the emergent veiny leaves to fall off but new growth did occur and the new leaves look nothing like the old leaves. The new leaves are smaller, smooth (no veins) and have a sort of waxy shimmer to them. I'll take some pics in the morning. 

I also have a green achilles plant that has done almost nothing in the span of like 6 months in the same tank. It has put out one or maybe two leaves but that's about it.


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## serenityfate

Here's my 8+ months. Really slow grower.


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## inka4041

Just wanted to add another data point to this thread. I planted 4 dark skeleton kings in my unheated 90 gallon some time in July. All had started some measure of growth, new leaves, new roots, etc, but weren't luxuriating by any means. In mid August, I left on vacation for 5 days. No air conditioning in my bedroom means average temps in that tank probably settled somewhere in the mid 80s. Came back to 3 of the 4 rotted to pieces. Resumed air conditioning, and the one remaining plant is still chugging along, putting out a new leaf every couple of weeks. Thinking that these might fare better under water when kept cool.


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## Acro

It's been a while, but since I am the OP, I wanted to give an update.

At this point and time, I no longer have any Skeleton King (aka Achilles, aka kishii). Both the Green and the Dark are dead. They grew smaller and smaller, then finally died. They lasted longer than some growers and I too kept them in an unheated tank. But alas, they did not make it. 

I feel that there are so many other large Buce species, that will do well submerged, it is better to go with one of them, instead of Buce Skeleton King (aka Achilles, aka kishii).

Good Luck and please add your experience, good or bad. This is still a valid topic.


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## DennisSingh

This is the post I read that made me sell it off. I noticed chipping n melting. Grew new pink leaves though. It's one of a kind buck and I haven't seen a large buck as beautiful as this one


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## Acro

It is extremely beautiful . . . when grown out of the water. However, when grown underwater, it looks generic, just like any other small green/blue leaved buce. 

Growing it with leaves above the water, is the way to go with Skeleton King. It makes a beautiful _terrarium_ or _riparium_ plant.



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## Acro

On another thread, there was discussion about Skeleton King. A few members stated that they knew people who successfully grew this plant. A few claimed they had grown it successfully. This was my response:

_Bottom line with Skeleton King, is that a huge amount of growers don't succeed with growing it submerged, and the ones that claim to have success with Skeleton King are few. 

As of yet, I have never seen series of photos showing the plant's growth progression, and we have many tank journals on this website and across the web. 

If it was grown successfully underwater, people would be selling cuttings of submerged grown Skeleton King. However, you'll only find large veiny emergent grown (often beat up, likely imported) specimens.

If there are many people out there growing Skeleton King submerged (successfully), none of them have stepped up to give their secrets or to write a care sheet. If a group of successful Skeleton King growers are out there, I'd love for us to pool their knowledge, ask them a series of questions and find out what their similarities of care are. 

Repeated success with a majority of growers has not occurred with Skeleton King. 
That, so far, is the bottom line. If there is evidence showing otherwise, I'd love for someone to prove me wrong._

And that is why I made this thread, to find out if it is possible to grow this plant submerged, and if so, how to make repeatable results so that the majority of growers can have success with Skeleton King.

Skeleton King is NOT like other Buce. IF it can be grown submerged, there is a trick to it.

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## serenityfate

I dont really grow it in any special conditions . I basically neglect mines. Tap water , inert substrate, some wc evey now and than since this is in a shrimp tank. IME it grows slow but the same growth rate as any buces. The rhizome is above sinstrate tied to a lava rock . Many people do put this plant in aquasoil so it can be the acidic conditions that might bother it?


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## ikuzo

serenityfate said:


> I dont really grow it in any special conditions . I basically neglect mines. Tap water , inert substrate, some wc evey now and than since this is in a shrimp tank. IME it grows slow but the same growth rate as any buces. The rhizome is above sinstrate tied to a lava rock . Many people do put this plant in aquasoil so it can be the acidic conditions that might bother it?


my tap water is certainly not acidic, pH is around 7,5-8,5, kinda hard too. one seems to be doing well in one tank, while in other dies slowly


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## Acro

serenityfate said:


> I dont really grow it in any special conditions . I basically neglect mines. Tap water , inert substrate, some wc evey now and than since this is in a shrimp tank. IME it grows slow but the same growth rate as any buces. The rhizome is above sinstrate tied to a lava rock . Many people do put this plant in aquasoil so it can be the acidic conditions that might bother it?


Thanks for explaining your tank conditions. Also, I think you are the only person who has put up photos of the same pant after some time. I am placing two of your photos side by side for comparison. The first is from this thread and was posted on 07-09-2015. The second is from another thread and was posted on 04-21-2016. About 9 months time between photos, the differences are interesting (color, size, leaf texture):

07-09-2015









04-21-2016












ikuzo said:


> my tap water is certainly not acidic, pH is around 7,5-8,5, kinda hard too. one seems to be doing well in one tank, while in other dies slowly


How long have you had them? What are the differences between the two aquariums?



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## ikuzo

Acro said:


> How long have you had them? What are the differences between the two aquariums?
> .


i'm not exactly sure but no more than 4 months

one tank is a low tech indirect sunlight tank with no co2 the other medium lighting with co2

strangely though the low tech tank buce is doing good


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## vajcher91

Here's my DSK. Had it for over a year and sprouting new leaves and growing baby plants. I've recently sold 2 plants that I grew from the mother plant. 2-3 inches tall. 

Tbh I don't really know what I'm doing for it to keep growing and not melt and die. Here's a few pics of it. With the baby plants and a 3in tall plant growing from the rhizome. Also with mini plantlets growing from the mother. Last pic is when it first baby plant was growing at the end of the rhizome. 




























Here's the before pic from back in May of this year.


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## Acro

vajcher91 said:


> Here's my DSK. Had it for over a year and sprouting new leaves and growing baby plants. I've recently sold 2 plants that I grew from the mother plant. 2-3 inches tall.
> 
> Tbh I don't really know what I'm doing for it to keep growing and not melt and die. Here's a few pics of it. With the baby plants and a 3in tall plant growing from the rhizome. Also with mini plantlets growing from the mother. Last pic is when it first baby plant was growing at the end of the rhizome.




Super strange. Please give us the details . . . lighting used, temp of water, filter, water movement, how often water is changed, ferts or Co2, etc.

Even more strange . . . the leaves look like emergent growth, not submerged form.




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## vajcher91

Acro said:


> Super strange. Please give us the details . . . lighting used, temp of water, filter, water movement, how often water is changed, ferts or Co2, etc.
> 
> Even more strange . . . the leaves look like emergent growth, not submerged form.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Tbh with you this has been in my grow out junk/shrimp cull tank lol. Water parameter for sure is soft cause I keep caridina shrimp culls in there with a sponge filter. Lighting I have a planted+ and WC are never done lol. No ferts and co2. I know this doesn't help much but its what I've been doing for the past year I've had it. Like I said I've grown baby plants with multiple leaves that hasn't melted and this mother plant keeps growing new leaves constantly every couple months. All leaves have the vein still.


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## DennisSingh

vajcher91 said:


> Here's my DSK. Had it for over a year and sprouting new leaves and growing baby plants. I've recently sold 2 plants that I grew from the mother plant. 2-3 inches tall.
> 
> Tbh I don't really know what I'm doing for it to keep growing and not melt and die. Here's a few pics of it. With the baby plants and a 3in tall plant growing from the rhizome. Also with mini plantlets growing from the mother. Last pic is when it first baby plant was growing at the end of the rhizome.


That is amazing growth
here is mine flowering
its melting(actually chipping off) and growing at the same time









To see yours look like you dosing steroids


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## Stevie Irawan

Mine melted in every water I have, have one in emersed form but it's shrinking from what I've remember.


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## Acro

vajcher91 said:


> Tbh with you this has been in my grow out junk/shrimp cull tank lol. Water parameter for sure is soft cause I keep caridina shrimp culls in there with a sponge filter. Lighting I have a planted+ and WC are never done lol. No ferts and co2. I know this doesn't help much but its what I've been doing for the past year I've had it. Like I said I've grown baby plants with multiple leaves that hasn't melted and this mother plant keeps growing new leaves constantly every couple months. All leaves have the vein still.





StrungOut said:


> mine flowering . . .its melting(actually chipping off) and growing at the same time





Stevie Irawan said:


> Mine melted in every water I have, have one in emersed form but it's shrinking from what I've remember.


There is some trick to it. A huge majority of these buce have died in the conditions we offer them. Yet, maybe 10% of growers have luck. That 10% is doing something different, or offering something to the plants that the rest of us aren't. 
Who will figure out the secret . . . and be able to give it to the rest of us, so we can get this species thrive?



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## DennisSingh

some of mine have finally acclimated and starting growing new leaves. Losing pizzaz no?


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## Stevie Irawan

My last one, shrink to a cute size but I really hope it will stop doing it


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## Jeffypoop

After a month and a half submerged... my DSK sprouted a new leaf. New leaf is about half the size of the old one but has a lot more color definition and more concentration of the white dots.









Here is a baby plant at the end of the rhizome. The leaf are small and round with no veins... Looks like a regular buce.


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## Crypto12

My plant (DSK/Dark Achilles) seems to be coming on quite well. It has only been a few months and it has two new leaves on it (it was kept and turned submersed by the previous owner so it's probably taking its time going through a transition phase). It's sprouting about 3-4 new heads from the rhizome towards the base and one towards the main head (to the left in the pic). It's growing in a humus-rich red soil without mist.


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