# Growth problems (twisted leaves, etc)



## ed.junior (Feb 2, 2017)

3 things come to mind: Biomass, Circulation and Iron/Traces.

Not saying this is the issue, but thats where I would start.

• Biomass: did not your tank, but by reducing biomass (e.g. less stems, shorter stems, less crowding, etc) you reduce competition. Thats a quick test you could do, with almost no drawbacks

• Circulation: make sure the water is really circulating. I can induce downward leaves on my Ludwigia Palustris just by placing the outflow behind the stems of fast growers. Every time I do that, circulation gets a bit slower, maybe the fast growing plants (mostly rotala colorata) are involved, but anyways, adding an extra pump is another quick test, or changing the way water circulates.

• Iron/Traces: I will ne very careful here to avoid controversy. I do not believe in micro toxicities in our tanks, with the exception of accidents. That being said, some experient people report to have more success with very little Iron/Traces. Although this is not my path (I dose around the same you do) I tested less in past (around .4 weekly) and it was fine too. Maybe you could try that route and see how it goes. Maybe 2 or 3 consecutive water changes, back to back, and then try it for two weeks, this way you would have a feesh start.

Got curious about one thing: you are dosing almost 40ppm of K, which is pretty rich. But 17ppm of N is really a lot. Do you really mean N or NO3? For NO3 that is not much. Same for P. P or PO4? For PO4 that is okay.

And by CO2 being "maxed out" I would expect a pH drop around 1.2 to 1.5. Is that your case?

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


----------



## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Too much co2, posted on apc too

When you float a plant, growth is stunted. Atmospheric ppm's to the limit
This is my observation behind
And that i've always blasted co2, have a lot of stunted plants in the past....



belee me dis


----------



## ed.junior (Feb 2, 2017)

StrungOut said:


> Too much co2, posted on apc too
> 
> When you float a plant, growth is stunted. Atmospheric ppm's to the limit
> This is my observation behind
> ...


This is interesting StrungOut. Never heard of such connection, but I did have issues in past with stunting on AR mini.

So, what do you mean with "float a plant" and atmospheric ppms?

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


----------



## Tinanti (Aug 25, 2005)

Aquatic Plant Central

That's a pic of my Nymphaea that is recovering from what I think was low co2. The leaves with the transparent edges are the old ones. When I realized that growth was speeding up after the co2 increase, I increased the macros to compensate. Despite adding a good bit more, the test reading was the same at the end of the week. 

Flow is quite good. In addition to the two filters, I have a Hydor, a small microjet in what was a slow flow corner and the downflow from the co2 reactor. Not turbulent, but definitely not stagnant. 

I can't say exactly what the pH drop is. I really need to recalibrate or possibly replace the pH probe on my monitor. I'll get on that. 

I think that you actually can overdose on traces, yes. But I think that's more of a CSM+B problem and I haven't dosed really heavily for quite a while. I can say for sure, based on water testing we did on APC via a guy with access to lab equipment, that my tank had a LOT of zinc at one time. Never really did nail down the source, but that would in any case be interesting to look into. I do think it's possible I am now overdoing the K and will cut out the extra potassium sulfate for the week to see if that helps. If I'm down to 29ppm a week of K, I assume that's enough relative the N and P? 

I mean N. Half of Flourish Nitrogen is a complexed ammonium and I used the Fertilator to arrive at that number.


----------



## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

ed.junior said:


> This is interesting StrungOut. Never heard of such connection, but I did have issues in past with stunting on AR mini.
> 
> So, what do you mean with "float a plant" and atmospheric ppms?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


When you float a plant have you seen the top growth? how's it look compared to fully submersible? Atomspheric ppms to the limit meaning that aquatic parameters do not reach these ppms


----------



## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

StrungOut said:


> When you float a plant have you seen the top growth? how's it look compared to fully submersible? Atomspheric ppms to the limit meaning that aquatic parameters do not reach these ppms


I'm jumping in blind here as ferts are relatively new to me and I would like to learn as much as possible. I'm a bit confused as to what you mean. Do you mean aquatic limits will not reach the atmospheric limits as in ppm of Co2 in the aquarium would not be able to surpass that of the level in the atmosphere? From my research so far (limited) atmospheric levels of Co2 are 7ppm and that of the aquarium can be much higher, or am I getting this backwards?

Added: isn't emersed growth and submerged growth different and this could be the reason for the difference?


Dan


----------



## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Dman911 said:


> I'm jumping in blind here as ferts are relatively new to me and I would like to learn as much as possible. I'm a bit confused as to what you mean. Do you mean aquatic limits will not reach the atmospheric limits as in ppm of Co2 in the aquarium would not be able to surpass that of the level in the atmosphere? From my research so far (limited) atmospheric levels of Co2 are 7ppm and that of the aquarium can be much higher, or am I getting this backwards?
> 
> Added: isn't emersed growth and submerged growth different and this could be the reason for the difference?
> 
> ...


Too sciency for me, I thought plants exposed to air were somewhere 220ppm i read somewhere, but i also read 7-8ppm like you stated somewhere too, so I'm just confusing myself now. Hope someone else can chime in.


----------



## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

StrungOut said:


> Too sciency for me, I thought plants exposed to air were somewhere 220ppm i read somewhere, but i also read 7-8ppm like you stated somewhere too, so I'm just confusing myself now. Hope someone else can chime in.


Sorry about the sciency stuff I'm just trying to wrap my head around all these individual chemical reaction threads I have been reading on ferts and how they interact so I can understand and apply them for my own set of variables rather than rely on EI or PPS pro and if I don't question I don't learn. I have a sick obsession to understand the why in everything.

Dan


----------



## ed.junior (Feb 2, 2017)

Ok, let me help here.
CO2 in the atmosphere will balance itself with CO2 in water. When we add CO2 to the water we throw the balance off, and that is why the CO2 will leave the water after some time: it is balancing itself.

CO2 concentration in the atmosphere is 0.04%, or 400 ppm by mass. Henry's law says that the partial pressure of a gas over the water surface will define how much of this gas will get into the water. Aplying it gets you around 0.5 ppm of CO2, from atmosphere alone. Studies have shown that an indoor tank (indoor CO2 concentration is usually higher) with active fish and bacteria (which contribute to CO2 content) is around 2ppm.

So the atmospheric concentration of CO2 is way higher than what we inject, e.g. 400 ppm against 30 ppm.

That being said, what confused me is the statement of too much CO2 in the water. Of course emersed leaves are different from submerged leaves, but I never heard of too much CO2 before being an issue for PLANTS. For fish, shrimp, etc, that is pretty clear an issue.

I grow a lot of my plants in both emersed/submerged forms, and I never stunting in emersed growth. They might dry out initially, if one is not careful, but that is something else entirely. 


Really looking forward to learning something new about the stunting 
The Lythraceae family stunts for several reasons and I am always trying to understand it better.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


----------



## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

This is a problem that has a very simple or complex answer. Is there a reason you haven’t ditched the substrate and started over? A lot can happen to a high tech tank’s substrate in five years. That’s the simple solution. I’m pretty confident the issue lies in the substrate.

Let’s say you have no substrate as a reserve for nutrients. The plants are relying entirely on the nutrients contained in the water column. In an aquarium like this, plants respond very quickly to dosing changes. Add CO2 as you have and we’re talking days instead of weeks. This alone tells me it’s not a dosing issue if all these changes haven’t had any results.

The complex side is figuring out what’s actually going on, more importantly prevent it from happening again.

This is similar to something I learned back in junior high school, cowboy and spacemen economies. A cowboy economy is one where the natural processes can keep up with the impact people make in an environment. A spaceman economy is when the natural process cannot keep up with the impact from people. If we add more nutrients than plants can process we enter a spaceman economy. Without water changes nutrients would continue to rise eventually killing everything. EI is a good example of a spaceman economy whereas the Walstad method would be more of a cowboy economy.

The EI method relies on water changes to remove excess nutrients. On the surface it seems pretty straightforward. However, when we add fertilizers, a portion of each dose will end up in the substrate for many reasons, chemical reactions being the main culprit. For example, we all know not to dose phosphate and iron at the same time. If we do they’ll react with each other forming new complexes which precipitate and fall to the substrate. The same holds true for most of the trace elements. When the chelate becomes unstable the nutrient will become unprotected leading to reactions, i.e. iron oxidizes and falls to the substrate. As you can see this “spaceman aquarium” needs the trash taking out from time to time. How often would depend on many things so there isn’t a simple answer. 

Something few of us give much thought to is the chelates we use. I don’t mean which chelate to use such as EDTA or DTPA. I’m referring to what happens to it when we add it to our tanks. It’s also a chemical just like our nutrients. In fact, we add far more of this than anything it’s protecting. 

When a chelate becomes unstable, such as EDTA at high PH, the bond releases leaving the nutrient and EDTA. The free chelate is now capable of bonding with other things. All chelates are different but all are more attracted to some elements than others. This is a list of what EDTA is attracted to, in order of highest attraction to lower.

Iron (Ferric)
Copper
Nickel
Cobalt
Iron (Ferrous)
Zinc
Cadmium
Manganese
Magnesium
Calcium

Suppose we added a huge amount of EDTA to our tanks. What would you expect to happen?

Typically, it causes nutrient deficiencies because the chelate is basically scouring all the nutrients it can hold. This essentially deprives higher plants. It can also disturb the availability of individual nutrients based on the chelates affinity for that nutrient. In the list above for EDTA we would expect to see the free ferric iron bind before Calcium. Likewise, since we have more Calcium than anything in that list in our tanks we would expect to see a larger amount of complexed Calcium. 

Here’s the rub with traditional chelates. They are not biodegradable! In fact, several countries have banned its use in detergents for this reason. 

Wikipedia, environmental fate of EDTA
_"EDTA is in such widespread use that questions have been raised whether it is a persistent organic pollutant. While EDTA serves many positive functions in different industrial, pharmaceutical and other avenues, the longevity of EDTA can pose serious issues in the environment. The degradation of EDTA is slow. It mainly occurs abiotically in the presence of sunlight."_


It may sound worse for our tanks than it is but I’m not sure. Chelation chemistry is very complex and I’m certainly no chemist. I would expect the chelate to remain soluble, therefore, would be removed with water changes? This would still pose a problem for those that dose fertilizers and do no water changes. It appears we will be using different chelates in the future such as EDDS and IDHA?

I do find it interesting that you had toxic levels of Zn and no major die off. Were you protected by excess chelate? Or was it the interaction between P and Zn? Impossible to say.


----------



## Tinanti (Aug 25, 2005)

Since I last responded, I stopped dosing the potassium sulfate so my npk ratio is at least a bit more in line. Also got some new Alternanthera (of two types) that has been growing normally along with some arcuata I got to test. But none are rooted in the substrate. I just kind of stuck them in between other things. 

I agree that toxic buildup can happen, but I have some questions. First, if it happens, is it only a detriment to things rooted in it, or does it also affect the water column? Secondly, if you never overdosed micros, could the tank go on indefinitely or is there a lifespan for tanks with high CEC substrate? Or all of them? 

I was actually thinking of replacing the substrate because I'm not a fan of the soilmaster's lightness and I think that even though I clean it when I can, it's just way overfilled with waste. I actually did replace the foreground and that was surprisingly big mess. Not sure what I'd use if I don't go the Aquasoil route (I like to be in control of all parameters). 

So I guess that if the K reduction doesn't do it (actually, probably anyway), I'll replace the substrate. Then there would at least be one less variable.


----------



## Tinanti (Aug 25, 2005)

I replaced the rest of the substrate with some Flourite Black my friend had. What a mess! Really glad to be rid of the light weight soilmaster. Thinking too that cleaning that up will reduce the acidification present in old tanks and help out the autotrophic bacteria a bit. Something I was going to do anyway and one less variable to worry about if things don't correct right away. 

And man! I cut the biomass WAY, WAY down. Anybody need a pound of Theia blue? I wouldn't be surprised if my problems stem at least in part from too much competition. Is it somehow not the case that just adding more of things can help out weaker competitors? 

Also, how does using Flourish and Flourish Trace at recommended levels compare to CSM+B dosing? Isn't the latter more concentrated? Keep trace dosing the same despite biomass reduction? Going to for now, I think. 

One stem of the new reineckii looks kinda stunted but the rest look...pretty normal. Fingers crossed. 

Hopefully if things go well I'll try the ramosior from Florida (the red one) and _Gratiola viscidula_ again. Kinda sucks to go out and get these cool new plants and see only other people grow them! Hopefully, that will change.


----------



## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Tinanti said:


> I replaced the rest of the substrate with some Flourite Black my friend had. What a mess! Really glad to be rid of the light weight soilmaster. Thinking too that cleaning that up will reduce the acidification present in old tanks and help out the autotrophic bacteria a bit. Something I was going to do anyway and one less variable to worry about if things don't correct right away.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Flourish and flourish trace is not all you would need for all the micros. You would need the other Flourish products like iron, pottasium, nitrogen, etc. yes the other stuff is more concentrated. You are paying mostly for water with seachem. 

Just keep dosing the same. Weekly water changes would clean out if any extra nutrients. 

Hoping it works out. Fingers crossed for you. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Flourish Comp has a LOT more Fe relative to the other micros than csm-b.

Here's a comparison figured at .1 ppm Fe (arbitrary amount just to compare)



> csm-b
> 
> B 0.012251149
> Cu 0.001378254
> ...





> Flourish Comp
> 
> B 0.0028125
> Ca 0.04375
> ...


No idea whether that's good or bad really. 

Also Im pretty sure the Fe in Flourish is gluconate, dont know about the other micros.

The only way I can keep sensitive species from twisting and stunting is with very low micros, like .01 csmb and .02 Fe dtpa 3x week. My substrate is inert sand, so Im sure that play a big role.

Intersting stuff on chelates @Zorfox . Ive been thinking a lot about such things lately. Trying to figure out why my tanks (4 high-tech) seem to be so sensitive to micro and Fe dosing. 

Reducing bio-mass can work a miracle no matter whats going on. There comes a point where larding on more ferts and CO2 just wont help.

We call it reduced competition. I believe it also has a lot to do with better circulation in and around plant groups. Meaning the individual stems/plants come into contact with a higher volume of water. Makes sense to me because plants can only absorb what they come in contact with, right?

Anyway Im following this thread with interest. Please continue to share what happens!


----------



## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

burr740 said:


> Flourish Comp has a LOT more Fe relative to the other micros than csm-b.
> 
> Here's a comparison figured at .1 ppm Fe (arbitrary amount just to compare)
> 
> ...




Very good info. As far as FE yes it has more was just saying those two if you are using Flourish line would not be all you need. That is weird that your sensative species are very sensitive to micro dosing. Wonder why that is. Obviously though you are doing something right with your tanks that's for sure. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tinanti (Aug 25, 2005)

clownplanted said:


> Flourish and flourish trace is not all you would need for all the micros. You would need the other Flourish products like iron, pottasium, nitrogen, etc. yes the other stuff is more concentrated. You are paying mostly for water with seachem.
> 
> Just keep dosing the same. Weekly water changes would clean out if any extra nutrients.
> 
> Hoping it works out. Fingers crossed for you.


Thanks! 

Yeah, I do dose the Iron too, which is indeed gluconate. I think the paying for water thing is true for some of their products but not for others. The potassium and phosphorus products are easily replaceable. But to compare the Nitrogen to Kno3 isn't quite accurate because it isn't just kno3 dissolved in water. And I do think their micro products are good. I rely on really comprehensive products like those because I'm doing RO. Apart from what comes in on fish food, that's their only source.


----------



## klibs (May 1, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Flourish Comp has a LOT more Fe relative to the other micros than csm-b.
> 
> Here's a comparison figured at .1 ppm Fe (arbitrary amount just to compare)
> 
> ...


oh geez here we go again :icon_roll

in all seriousness though these kinds of issues are IMO the most difficult to resolve. look forward to another in depth thread about someone's experience.


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

klibs said:


> oh geez here we go again :icon_roll


Here we go again with what?


----------



## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

So any improvement? Curious if it was the substrate as suggested by great knowledge in this thread. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## klibs (May 1, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Here we go again with what?


the ongoing battle to solve the fert crisis
haven't you always been all about limiting micros / tried out a million different ways to dose your tank?


----------



## Tinanti (Aug 25, 2005)

clownplanted said:


> So any improvement? Curious if it was the substrate as suggested by great knowledge in this thread.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Too soon to be sure, but I see signs of improvement. Arcuata looks normal, Pogostemon erectus recovering, variegated Alternanthera still looks bad. But the other one looks like it might be on the mend. I'll update. Maybe in a week or so.


----------



## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Tinanti said:


> Too soon to be sure, but I see signs of improvement. Arcuata looks normal, Pogostemon erectus recovering, variegated Alternanthera still looks bad. But the other one looks like it might be on the mend. I'll update. Maybe in a week or so.




That is great to hear that they look to be recovering. Still keeping my fingers crossed for you. And looking forward to hearing back in a week. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tinanti (Aug 25, 2005)

clownplanted said:


> That is great to hear that they look to be recovering. Still keeping my fingers crossed for you. And looking forward to hearing back in a week.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks. In the meantime, it's really nice to plant things and have them just stay there. And there was SO much mulm. Hopefully that helps finish off the last traces of the bba.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Tinanti,

Are you still running with reduced K?


----------



## Tinanti (Aug 25, 2005)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Tinanti,
> 
> Are you still running with reduced K?


Yes. 

..


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Tinanti said:


> Yes.
> 
> ..


How much K do you dose? Any particular reason you run it lean?


----------



## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

klibs said:


> the ongoing battle to solve the fert crisis
> haven't you always been all about limiting micros / tried out a million different ways to dose your tank?


Could we be missing the obvious to solve the "fert crisis"?

I've been doing some research over the last few weeks and have found some shocking information. I want to put something together to explain it properly but I have little free time lately and am old enough to realize I'll never do it. lol 

This problem has always dumbfounded me. The only commonality I could ever find was that most had low PH ranges. Why can one person have the issue and another not even with the same PH range? 

I realized we must be missing something so I started over. It's related to trace dosing and the most common fertilizer for this is Plantex. So I looked at that fertilizer. 

Most fertilizers have a guaranteed analysis listing elements at various percentages. If we add all those percentages up, it's not close to 100%. In fact, it's pretty darn low. In one gram (1,000mg) of Plantex there is only 111mg of elements we want to dose. The majority of what's left is the chelating agent. The analysis for Plantex (Nutritrace now btw) shows a minimum of 65% EDTA. Well, seems a great place to start. Especially since EDTA loses it's stability at higher PH ranges. So that fits my observations.

Lets say we have a 40 gallon tank. The EI dose is roughly 1 gm. 111mg of that are elements and at least 650mg is EDTA. So each time we dose we are dosing 650mg of something we don't know much about. It doesn't make much sense to me.

Let's assume that ALL the EDTA we add remains soluble in the water. We can calculate what PPM we would expect to see using the same math for our fertilizer calculations. If we run that into a accumulation calculator we would have a peak of 31ppm and a trough of 15.7ppm of EDTA dosing standard EI and changing 50% water weekly.

I really don't want to overload everyone on the specifics. Most people could care less how chemicals react and all the other nerd jazz. So I am keeping this very simple. 

Here are a few things you may not have known about EDTA,



It is not biodegradable.
It's among the largest group of environmental pollutants in the environment.
Western Europe and Australia have banned it's use in detergents.
It can cause metal biomagnification which means, it can increase metal levels significantly, one study was 75 times higher than normal. (Suddenly Trace toxicity becomes a reality) 
It's toxic to the fungi and many of the bacteria in out tanks. In fact, a gram negative antibiotic. (BGA is gram positive. I wonder why we see that so much now? lol)
Free EDTA has been shown to produce adverse reproductive and developmental effects in mammals.
It inhibits photosynthesis in various forms of micro algae.
activated charcoal is useless for EDTA removal.
It strips metal from complexed molecules. All those precipitates in the soil become mobile metals not to mention all the excess phophate, calcium, magnesium, iron etc.. contained in those complexes.

Here is a link to PAN Pesticide Database, Ecotoxicity for EDTA. Those are the results of EDTA toxicity studies. It's not as benign as you might think.

I wish I had time to explain everything I found in detail but I don't. I can tell you everything in the above list is proven and I can provide the acedemic papers that prove them. One in particular is VERY interesting. Here is the original link EDTA: the chelating agent under environmental scrutiny. However, I uploaded a PDF (the attachment) that I highlighted while reading. Those yellow spots are pretty important things to understand here.


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

Zorfox said:


> Could we be missing the obvious to solve the "fert crisis"?
> 
> I've been doing some research over the last few weeks and have found some shocking information. I want to put something together to explain it properly but I have little free time lately and am old enough to realize I'll never do it. lol
> 
> ...


----------



## Tinanti (Aug 25, 2005)

burr740 said:


> How much K do you dose? Any particular reason you run it lean?


I don't run it lean at all. Just leaner than I was previously. Adding per week 17ppm N, 8.99 P, 29.08 K and .7 Fe. I was adding extra potassium sulfate on top of that. That nets me about 15ppm N if I test it. So I run everything lean, I guess. If no improvement soon, raising the levels is one thing I'll try next. It was even leaner than that, but the hygro pinholes were solved not by the extra K but by the additional N. Seems the N to P ratio works well, in any case, for keeping away algae. 

Just got a new pH probe, so I'll see how low my pH really was.

Also, probably worth pointing out that there is no EDTA in any of my ferts. Gluconate though.


----------



## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

My friend. I was 2 years finding out what was the problem. I had exactly the same of you. And the i founded that my aquarium had low time without light. My light was turn on until 5a.m. Thanks


Enviado do meu iPhone usando o Tapatalk


----------



## ed.junior (Feb 2, 2017)

Tinanti said:


> Adding per week 17ppm N, 8.99 P, 29.08 K and .7 Fe.
> 
> Also, probably worth pointing out that there is no EDTA in any of my ferts. Gluconate though.


We dose very similarly. Good to know you are on the same route


On EDTA: all your traces are chelated. Guess what is the common chelate? 
Not that I think it is relevant in this context. 



Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


----------



## Tinanti (Aug 25, 2005)

Looking in there today and don't like what I see. I don't know if it's because I had it out of the tank for a day or so and didn't plant it right away, but the Ludwgia microcarpa hybrid looks half stunted and the leaves have a strange puckered look to them. The Alternanthera (regular kind) has leaves that are starting to twist. The variegated kind? Don't ask. The Limnophila 'belem' has a few leaves a few pairs down that are curled down at the sides and hooked at the end. On the other hand, arcuata looks fine for the first time in a while. 

I was going to replace that stupid soilmaster anyway, but it looks like I may have to look elsewhere for a solution. Dosed half the Flourish and half the Flourish Trace on consecutive days following the change. Things definitely look worse today. If it is a micros issue, too much or too little? Don't know. Kind of think the former since the plant mass is so reduced. Or maybe my tank is just cursed. 

Got a new pH probe for my pinpoint monitor. pH was 7.1 last night at 11pm and is down to 6.20 right now. Don't think it's a co2 issue. Gotta be something really fundamental staring me right in the face but I just can't see it.


----------



## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Tinanti said:


> Looking in there today and don't like what I see. I don't know if it's because I had it out of the tank for a day or so and didn't plant it right away, but the Ludwgia microcarpa hybrid looks half stunted and the leaves have a strange puckered look to them. The Alternanthera (regular kind) has leaves that are starting to twist. The variegated kind? Don't ask. The Limnophila 'belem' has a few leaves a few pairs down that are curled down at the sides and hooked at the end. On the other hand, arcuata looks fine for the first time in a while.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I know you redo your water using RO water and nutrients. But doing half of each may cause a problem? Maybe try just one or other? Try also using gh booster? Couldn't hurt. Shooting in the dark here. Also what is your calcium level? Curling of leaves for me has meant calcium deficiency. Maybe check your calcium level? I would at this point stick to the regular EI dosing. Do the seachem bottles expire? Again shooting in dark but just bringing up ideas. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tinanti (Aug 25, 2005)

Well, if I go back to using just the Aqua Vitro Mineralize and ditch the Equilibrium, I can at least cut the K down so it's in line with the N. 

GH is about 6. Don't know calcium levels, but there should be enough. But if there's any truth to excess K blocking its uptake, doing so will at least rule that out.


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

When you say bring the K in line with N, do you mean have approximately the same level of both?



Tinanti said:


> The Alternanthera (regular kind) has leaves that are starting to twist. The variegated kind? Don't ask.


The variegated is exponentially more touchy than the regular. But both are hyper sensitive to micros (in my set ups). Curled/deformed leaves being the main symptom, followed by stunting if things progress

I can grow the regular with perfectly flat leaves, no problem. The variegated, this is about as good as it gets. 










Matter of fact Ive never even seen it with perfectly flat leaves submerged. Has anyone?

Also notice the Persicaria in back all curled up. That's micros too. I know this from a couple years of going up and down with them. I can repeat the result anytime, and fix it just as easily.

But here again Im just talking about in my own tanks. The same symptoms in another person's tank may be due to something else entirely.


----------



## Tinanti (Aug 25, 2005)

Yes, I mean having about the same levels of both. If that doesn't work, what's next? 

I have considered cutting trace levels as you have. Or just cutting the Flourish Trace in half.


----------



## ed.junior (Feb 2, 2017)

burr740 said:


> Also notice the Persicaria in back all curled up. That's micros too. I know this from a couple years of going up and down with them. I can repeat the result anytime, and fix it just as easily.


Hi Burr,

Do you mean micros including iron?

It is easy to just cut your trace mix(CSM+B, TNC Trace) and add iron on top (EDTA, DTPA, EDDHA, Gluconate, etc.). This would reduce micros but keep iron. Is this what you mean, or just cut all of them, iron included?

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


----------



## Tinanti (Aug 25, 2005)

I'm going to cut the Equilibrium and see if anything happens. 

If not, I'll cut the trace dosing in half and if that doesn't work, I'll start increasing and working my way up. 

Really can't think of anything else. I don't think there's anything I'm currently doing that on paper is wrong.


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

ed.junior said:


> Hi Burr,
> 
> Do you mean micros including iron?
> 
> It is easy to just cut your trace mix(CSM+B, TNC Trace) and add iron on top (EDTA, DTPA, EDDHA, Gluconate, etc.). This would reduce micros but keep iron. Is this what you mean, or just cut all of them, iron included?


All of them, definitely including Fe. Ive tried various combinations of csmb, Fe dtpa, and Fe gluconate.

I used to think there might be a single "bad guy" in the csmb causing a problem, maybe a high level of something in the tap, etc. Although there's nothing out of the ordinary in my water report, and user @PortalMasterRy tested my water with his Hanna rig, which showed about the same thing as the report. Its pretty good water actually.

The sweet spot for me seems to be csmb around .01-.015 ppm Fe, and dtpa around .015 -.02 ppm, 3x a week. Total Fe per week around .1 ppm. 

The dtpa I spike with additional Mn to have a 3:1 Fe:Mn ratio. Apparently, if these two get very far apart, one or the other can quickly become toxic. 

Heres some additional reading on that if anyone is interested

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC438057/?page=6

Role of Manganese in Plant Culture | PRO-MIX

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijce/2014/327153/


Also of note, year or so ago I switched back to Flourish comp for a couple of months. Didnt notice much difference as far as tolerance goes, and seemed to be overall less effective. So I dont _think_ it's an issue with the edta chelate in csmb.

What I have not tried is using Flourish Trace (which contains no Fe) along with an additional source of Fe. Maybe someday... 


*** DISCLAIMER:: *Keep in mind my substrate is inert sand. Ive not seen anyone with a high CEC substrate do well long term with such low levels. Although there's usually a honeymoon period of a couple of weeks where things improve, but it soon becomes too little.

So if you're rolling with Aquasoil, dirt, safety-sorb, eco-complete, etc. For whatever reason, these levels probably wont be enough.

I am in no way saying everyone's problem is "micro-tox" or whatever, or trying to push the routine on others. This is just what happens in my tanks (4 high-techs and they all behave the same)


*A recent example:*

This was bound for my journal but I'll share it here too since it's relevant to the discussion.

Anyone who follows my journals knows that my current nemesis is Ludwigia pantanal. I struggle to keep it alive and thriving, but still keep trying it.

It is said to be a nutrient hog, so the obvious question is does it need more traces/Fe than Im giving it?

So a couple of weeks ago in the 120 gal I decided to raise micros 50% (dosing 15 ml instead of the usual 10). This bumped things up to .0225 csmb and .03 Fe, 3x week.

By mid-week Rotalla wallichii, Pogosteman kimberly and Pogosteman erectus all stunted. After a week of the higher dose, did an 80% water change and went back to the normal level. 

Here's some pics, its been another week at the normal dose. 

Rotala wallichii stunting, then un-stunting. Notice the narrow green portion of the stem near the top. That was the stunting.










Better profile view from the end











Pogostemans kimberly and erectus. These were all perfect to begin with. 

The tops shriveled up and new side shoots started to emerge. It's like the plant abandons the damaged part and decides to start over - typical "unhappy" behavior.




















The Pantanal didnt like it much either. In the pic above, you can barely notice the tips of two tallest stems on the right have little brown knots where the new growth comes out. 

None of this surprised me because, well, Ive seen this movie many times before.

I'll just top the stunted Pogos and the new stems should be all good.


----------



## Tinanti (Aug 25, 2005)

burr740 said:


> What I have not tried is using Flourish Trace (which contains no Fe) along with an additional source of Fe. Maybe someday...


I think it's more of a companion product than something meant to be the sole source of traces.



burr740 said:


> So if you're rolling with Aquasoil, dirt, safety-sorb, eco-complete, etc. For whatever reason, these levels probably wont be enough.


Well, I think that there's a continuum there in terms of CEC, so some might require more micro dosing than others. Even the different colors of Flourite vary.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I noticed there's actually manganese in Equilibrium. Wonder if that can cause any trouble. Going to just try cutting that product out first. I suppose there can't be much harm in reducing the K, can there?

I will say too, that some of what I have noticed this week may have been a reaction of the plants to the substrate swap and conditions changes; I found an Eriocaulon that had been recovering but within a day turned to mush. So I might just need to be more patient. No algae, really, and the arcuata still grows normally, so I might not be that far off track. It used to look like this:


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Tinanti said:


> I suppose there can't be much harm in reducing the K, can there?


Hi Tinanti,

If there is a deficiency in K this is typically what you will see:



> D. Leaf chlorosis is not the dominant symptom. Symptoms appear on older leaves at base of plant.
> 
> 2. Necrotic spots develop on older leaves
> 
> ...


----------



## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

This is why I feel it possibly may be calcium or boron because the leaf veigns seem good but the leaf more pale and curling which are symptoms of calcium or boron deficiency.


----------



## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Tinanti said:


> I'm going to cut the Equilibrium and see if anything happens.
> 
> If not, I'll cut the trace dosing in half and if that doesn't work, I'll start increasing and working my way up.
> 
> Really can't think of anything else. I don't think there's anything I'm currently doing that on paper is wrong.


Maybe your one of the ones having a boron excess or deficiency issue? Read here.
Boron deficiency, or calcium deficiency---or could it be nitrate excess? - Fertilizing - Aquatic Plant Central


----------



## Tinanti (Aug 25, 2005)

I noticed that with the Limnophila 'belem', the older a stem is, the more likely it is to have leaves that curl. Stems that arise from nodes or after a trim are lacking a lot of color but mostly form normally. The big, purplish stems are the worst. Something is accumulating? Must mean something. 

Sometimes see arcuata with a stem here and there with new leaves that are straight and normally formed have their tips pushed down a bit. But they can go back. Don't know what that's about.


----------



## Tinanti (Aug 25, 2005)

Swapping out the Equlibrium (less k and a tiny bit of manganese) and cutting Flourish Trace dose in half resulted in arcuata with leaves that pushed down at their tips and twisted in not extreme but strange ways. Looks like I may have just been short something.


----------



## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Tinanti said:


> Swapping out the Equlibrium (less k and a tiny bit of manganese) and cutting Flourish Trace dose in half resulted in arcuata with leaves that pushed down at their tips and twisted in not extreme but strange ways. Looks like I may have just been short something.




What do you think it is that you were short?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tinanti (Aug 25, 2005)

clownplanted said:


> What do you think it is that you were short?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not sure, but maybe boron. So perhaps the reineckii needs a bit more than the arcuata does.


----------



## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Tinanti said:


> Not sure, but maybe boron. So perhaps the reineckii needs a bit more than the arcuata does.



To test if it boron try a little boric acid. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Tinanti said:


> Not sure, but maybe boron. So perhaps the reineckii needs a bit more than the arcuata does.




Any signs of improvement yet?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tinanti (Aug 25, 2005)

clownplanted said:


> Any signs of improvement yet?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I fixed the arcuata by bringing the Flourish Trace back up but the Limnophila and Alternanthera are still bad. Away for vacation and AGA but might just try increasing all traces when I return.


----------



## dstevenson2k (Mar 24, 2010)

Any update here? I had a lot of the same problems with stunting and curled leaves. I ended up swapping out the substrate for fresh aquasoil and going forward with a lot less micros. .025 ppm Fe from CSM+B and .075 ppm DTPA 3x a week. So far so good, plants that were twisted messes for me before are growing normally again. 

Also I know you said you had a problem with high zinc in the past, you may want to stop Flourish Trace dosing as it contains a lot of zinc for some reason.


----------



## Tinanti (Aug 25, 2005)

Got back from vacation and things looked bad. Reineckii fully stunted among other things. Just kind of threw together quick dosages and instructions before I left so someone could take care of things only coming in a few times. That didn't work.

After that, did some water changes and tried half doses of Flourish and Flourish Trace. Borderline disaster. Pale, gnarly chloritic plants. So this week I'm bringing Flourish up to 12ml for the week (from 6.5 weekly to half that to this). Have kept the full recommended Trace so far. 6.5 weekly Flourish and 20ml Trace wasn't enough. On the fence about still dosing that much Trace but think I'll keep with it for the immediate future. _Limnophila_ and _Alternanthera_ look like they might be recovering. As are some other plants that just looked really pale during the minimal micros experiment. _Clinopodium brownei _still has some curled margins on some leaves but I think some plants just take a while to recover. So it does look like I need a lot more micros. Just exactly how many more is still a question. 

Do see a little thread algae. Not sure what to make of that, but I think it might trace back to vacation.

Just to keep in mind, Flourish products are not as concentrated as CSM+ B and I'm not using Aquasoil.


----------



## dstevenson2k (Mar 24, 2010)

I know the Flourish products are less concentrated than CSM+B, but for some reason the Seachem Trace has a lot of zinc in it. Earlier in the thread you mentioned something about testing and seeing high levels of zinc. Just as an example, dosing at the recommended 5ml/20gal of Trace, that will increase zinc by .011ppm according to the rotala calculator. Following Flourish recommended dosing 5ml/60 gal would add .00015ppm Zn, and adding CSM+B to bring iron to .1ppm Fe would raise zinc to .006ppm. 

What I'm getting at is Flourish Trace has 73x as much zinc as Flourish Comprehensive at the recommended dose, and 2x as much zinc as a moderate dose of CSM+B which is supposed to be much more concentrated. 

If you've tested and seen high zinc levels in the past, I'd look at the Seachem Trace and maybe reduce or cut it out of your dosing. It may be contributing to your issues, just a guess though.


----------



## dstevenson2k (Mar 24, 2010)

I'm not sure why Trace has such high levels of zinc, I have a bottle myself and I've stopped using it for that reason. I did a little searching and found this on zinc toxicity(doesn't apply directly to aquatic plants but still food for thought)

"Zn toxicity symptoms include reduced yields and stunted growth, Fe-deficiency-induced chlorosis through reductions in chlorophyll synthesis and chloroplast degradation, and interference with P (and Mg and Mn) uptake." 

From: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-8137.2007.01996.x/full


----------



## Tinanti (Aug 25, 2005)

I had zinc issues long before using Trace. It's in my tap water. Using RO now. But you're right that Trace probably has too much and I've been persuaded to cut it out. That is weird that they add so much of it. Maybe upping Flourish a bit might do it.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Tinanti,

If you have a zinc excess this is typically what plants will exhibit:


> Chlorosis general, no interveinal chlorosis. Effects usually general on whole plant.
> 
> 1. Visible symptoms include yellowing and dying of older leaves. Foliage light green, growth stunted, stems slender, yellow...*nitrogen deficiency*
> 
> ...


----------



## dstevenson2k (Mar 24, 2010)

Shoot sorry I must have missed where you mentioned using RO. I still think Flourish Trace has an odd balance of micros with so much zinc though. It may be contributing to your problems but it may not, just something to look into I guess. 

I thought low dose CSM+B was working for me but I'm starting to see twisting and chlorosis again, adding more iron isn't helping either. The struggle is real, I feel your pain my friend.


----------



## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

if someone figure out why seachem add so much ZN in their trace, let me know


----------



## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

happi said:


> if someone figure out why seachem add so much ZN in their trace, let me know




They have a support forum. Post in there. They are usually fast to answer. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## aclaar877 (Feb 19, 2014)

After reading about the possible issues with EDTA, I decided to try Flourish Comp just for iron and micros and see what happened. I had been dosing CSM+B at 0.015 ppm Fe, copying what Burr was doing for a while, but saw some issues with Ammania Senegalensis and Ludwigia Glandulosa wasn't growing as well as I wanted. In two weeks of using Flourish Comprehensive (trace levels are in the ballpark of the low CSM+B doses, but ratios are different) the results have not been good. Some A Reineckii has stunted again, and it was evident a day after the trace dosing. It's only 2-3 stems but I imagine it will get worse if I continue to do what I have been doing. Ammania Senegalensis looks worse than before, and L Glandulosa has very short internodes and looks like it will completely shrivel up and stunt soon. I am also getting more leaf shedding than usual. Not sure what to do. I wonder if I induced a zinc deficiency, since the Flourish Comp has a lot less zinc (4.5x less than my CSM dosing), or the iron/traces ratio got thrown out of whack by the Flourish. The plants' reaction has been the same as when I was dosing too much CSM, but it couldn't be toxicity since the total amounts of traces I have dosed in the last two weeks have been so low.

I'm tempted to get some zinc sulfate and dose that this week, and see what happens. That's the only possible deficiency that jumps out at me right now, since Flourish has so much less than CSM.


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Ive started rolling my own using sulfate and oxide compounds. The same stuff that's in Flourish Comp and Trace. Fe is dtpa

For ratios I basically just cloned csmb.

It's been about 6 weeks and the results so far are outstanding. Im already up to the equivalent of .075 csmb, and most things have never looked better. That's quite a step from .015

@aclaar877 you might want to try Flourish Trace instead. It has all the micros without any fe. Then you could add Fe dtpa for whatever ratio you want.


----------



## aclaar877 (Feb 19, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Ive started rolling my own using sulfate and oxide compounds. The same stuff that's in Flourish Comp and Trace. Fe is dtpa
> 
> For ratios I basically just cloned csmb.
> 
> ...



Yes, I've been watching your progress on your journal - I tried the Flourish since I wanted to see if a different chelator made any difference, and I was too lazy to go out and find the separate micro elements. I think I will eventually go that route, though. Your results have been amazing.


----------

