# Substrate



## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Everything you ever wanted to know and then some:
Substrates For the Planted Aquarium
Substrates for Aquarium Plants


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## aquaphish (Dec 20, 2002)

the articles are very informative,but I find they cause some confusion as to which one to use!!! 

I have a 40 gal. planted tank and use a 50% mix of Flourite/gravel and have some good looking plants!!!


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## mitche8359 (Feb 4, 2003)

thanks for the comments. I'll give the articles a read.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Yeah, there sure is a lot of information out there and even more opinions. Flourite is an easy way to go. Hassle free and aesthetically pleasing. But I'm going to start a new tank and try some of these more advanced loam/enriched clay substrates with some heavy root feeders.


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## mitche8359 (Feb 4, 2003)

I had a chance to skim the articles. Yes, there is a lot of information. Worse, I think I might be in some trouble. I went from a faux pas plastic plant tank to a planted tank without considering the substrate. I have natural gravel in the tank a good three inches likely. 

Looks like most of the substrates are supposed to go under the gravel. Buggers... looks like an overhaul coming up over the weekend. 

I like that gravel look though for the SA amazon theme I have going. Can I put flourite under the gravel for now until I read more on the subject and decide how to go?

Is flourite available at most lfss?


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Most LFS's carry Flourite. Your regular gravel will grow plants just fine, though. As a matter of fact, some plants don't care what substrate you have, since they are water-column feeders. Hygrophilia, Rotala, Egeria, Ludwigia, Bacopa, Hornwort, Wisteria, etc. are all primarily stem feeders. Their roots main function is to anchor them in place.
If you do have the opportunity to completely tear down the tank (no fish yet), then go for it. If I had no fish in my tank with a 2/3 Flourite / 1/3 gravel mix, I would do an inch of kitty litter first, followed by Flourite, and topped with an inch of regular Home Depot Play Sand. 
But if your tank has fish and is well established, and your gravel is smaller than 2-3 mm in size, I wouldn't worry too much about tearing it all down. Even root feeders like Echinodorus can do well in a sterile gravel substrate with supplements like Tetra Initial Stick (or Root Tabs) and some Jobe's Sticks.


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## Hooked4Life (Jan 14, 2003)

When I converted my 20G Long from fish only to a planted tank, I had around 1" of aquarium gravel. I added another 1" of aquarium gravel and 1" of Flourite. That gave me about 3" total for the substrate and you can see by the pictures that the Flourite looks quite nice. When I do my next take I may decide to use 100% Flourite to gain more of the benefits from the Flourite.


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## mitche8359 (Feb 4, 2003)

Hmmm... my response from home didn't show up. Buggers.



> Your regular gravel will grow plants just fine, though.


I was hoping that someone would say that...  I guess I'll let it be for a while to see how the plants take to it. The gravel is 2-3mm with some larger gravel tossed in for aesthetics. I plan on adding some river stones as well to complete the look. 

The Jobes Sticks that you mentioned, are they the typical house plant type or is there an aqua plant variety that the lfs sells at an elevated price? 



> That gave me about 3" total for the substrate and you can see by the pictures that the Flourite looks quite nice.


Nice pictures. I imagine that the flourite is the top layer of the substrate? Looks like a fine gravel. I was going to add a smaller size gravel eventually just to get different sizes in the tank so maybe I'll see what's available at the LFS.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

The only kind of regular gravel you'll have a hard time with is the course gravel. It will be very difficult to get plants to root in those stones. The finer the gravel, the better the roots. 
The Jobes sticks you want have a very low phophate number (the second in the standard N-P-K rating) so the houseplant one at 13-4-5 is pretty good. Some have found a "fern" version with even less phosphate, so if you can find that one, it would be better. Just shove one half stick underneath each large root feeder (sword, crypt, etc) and don't touch the plant or substrate around that plant for a month or two.


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## mitche8359 (Feb 4, 2003)

I looked for flourite at the lfs. I thought I was looking for a large bag of material that looked like gravel? The product available at the lfs was laterite. Not exactly a cheap product if it was going to be used as a layer of substrate. I'll mix it in with some of the new smaller gravel that I bought to put around the anubias.


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## m.lemay (Jul 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by mitche8359_
> I looked for flourite at the lfs. I thought I was looking for a large bag of material that looked like gravel? The product available at the lfs was laterite. Not exactly a cheap product if it was going to be used as a layer of substrate. I'll mix it in with some of the new smaller gravel that I bought to put around the anubias.


Be prepared for a real cloudy mess when using laterite.
I had about 1 inch of gravel in my tank, and I really didn't feel like tearing it all down to avoid the cloudy mess. So. I ordered 2 bags of Flourite and mixed it right into the gravel. It looks awesome and though it did cloud the tank a little it cleared up within 4 hours. I did my 29 gal with laterite and that sucker stayed cloudy for about 3 days. It was so bad, its a miracle the fish survived.

Marcel


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

I use the Jobes (for large indoor plants it says on package ) ... its 14-3-7
Now that I no longer have a UGF it is working very well :hehe: :hehe: It was the lowest phosphate I could find with the highest Nitrogen content. My lone failing Crypt is growing nicely now. I also use Flourish Tabs... since going heavier in the sub ferts my plants are growing fewer and fewer "water roots". Im always learning...
Dont let *any* of the substrate ferts hit the water column or you are asking for *T*rouble though... notice that is trouble with a capitol "T"... 
They will ALL cloud your water if disturbed... read above where I said " Im always learning... :hehe: :hehe:


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## mitche8359 (Feb 4, 2003)

> stayed cloudy for about 3 days


Did you rinse the laterite? I haven't put it in the tank yet , but I read that it's supposed to be rinsed before being added to the tank. 

I'm going to try another lfs today for the flourite. Seems like the way to go if I can find it. 

Buck -- are you saying that you don't use flourite of any kind?


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## SNPiccolo5 (Oct 6, 2002)

You wouldn't rinse laterite, since it is just a powdery clay substance, if you put water into it, then it would turn into a clay or a soupy clay.

Flourite on the other hand is basically regular gravel, except it is made of fired clay (baked, if you will, but that is not the term). This clay is porous and absorbs nutrients from the water collumn, so new flourite has nutrients in it, but after in the aquarium for a month or so it has more nutrients. You rinse flourite, and it is very important to rinse it. I never got it to run clear, but a good 10 minutes of rinsing per bucket is needed. I put mine in a bucket and rinsed it, so it took several buckets before all the bags (of flourite) were added to the tank.

Flourite is not a substrate additive or fertalizer, it is basically _gravel_ for the planted aquarium. Laterite is a powder substance which WILL CLOUD YOUR WATER IMMENSLY!!! Jobes sticks can be added to any substrate, and are for heavy root feaders.

I hope this isn't confusing, but you sounded confused in your last post. I was confused at first and still am confused a little bit about what makes a good substrate... I have flourite in my tank with jobes sticks, and it seems to be working... Hope this clears some things up!

-Tim


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## mitche8359 (Feb 4, 2003)

No I wasn't confused. I was stating what the directions on the package said to do. If it's going to cloud the water, I'll try following the directions and rinse it to see if that helps.


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## SNPiccolo5 (Oct 6, 2002)

Now I'm confused, lol! What type of laterite do you have? If your laterite is a powder substance, then I wouldn't rinse it, you would only end up turning it to mud.

Flourite you can rinse and will help from clouding the water greatly... 

What type of laterite do you have, maybe that can help me understand what you woulod be rinsing...


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## mitche8359 (Feb 4, 2003)

The product I have is called First Layer Pure Laterite. Pretty pricey at the lfs. Found the 55oz version online for same price as the 20oz at lfs. 

If you remember that candy that fizzled in your mouth, pop rocks or something like that, this product resembles that except the clay red color.

First step of the directions is to rinse.


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## Pooky125 (Jul 30, 2002)

If you deicde youw nt to add laterite to your gravel, mix it with just a lil bit of wter and freeze it in an ince cube tray.. Then, just stick them into the gravel under the plants, while frozen of course.


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## SNPiccolo5 (Oct 6, 2002)

OK, when I added laterite, it was this powder stuff and if you rinsed it, then it would have turned to mud.. I understand what you have, and if it says to rinse it on the directions, then that is probably the best thing to do (duh!).

Pooky's suggestion is a good one. I would try adding a little of the laterite first just using the directions, and if that seems to cloud your water, I would try the ice cube thing.

-Tim


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## mitche8359 (Feb 4, 2003)

Pooky -- that does sound like a really good idea. My only concern is that the iced laterite would float and be hard to keep on the bottom long enough to cover with gravel.


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

Laterite is no miracle cure.... it is probably the biggest mess makin waste of time you could ever use unless you are startin a brand new tank.
If you have an existing tank and add Jobes, Flourish Tabs, Tetra Initial Sticks etc..... you will get equal or better results....
Laterite is crap in my opinion unless it is buried deep in a "new" substrate.... adding it can do more harm then good in an established aquarium.


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## mitche8359 (Feb 4, 2003)

I'm starting to think I wasted money on the flourite. I washed it ten times and it's still muddy. Wondering if there will be anything left after I finish rinsing it. I decided to freeze some to see if I can add it without making too much of a mess.


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

If its "muddy" or it "dissolves" then I hate to say it but you aint got Flourite... :sad:


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

I agree with that statement. The Flourite Red can be really dusty. But if one uses the proper technique you can have it ready to go in the tank in about three rinses. All you really want to do is get the dust off. Not get rid of the fines. When I was setting up my 55 gallon tank it took me about 20 minutes to rinse three bags of Flourite and 40 lbs of gravel. Then I was very careful about how I added the water and the tank was clear in about an hour.


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## mitche8359 (Feb 4, 2003)

Ah I didn't really mean muddy, I meant the color of mud. I froze some last night and will add it under the substrate here in a few minutes. Didn't make it out to look for flourite at another lfs.


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

I think there is confusion here on my part... you said Flourite in a post when you are actually adding Laterite it appears...  good luck


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## SNPiccolo5 (Oct 6, 2002)

If it is regular Flourite, I never got mine to "run clear" from rinsing it, but it adds a lot less cloudiness than you would think...

-Tim


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

The mistake most people make when rinsing Flourite is stirring or shaking it too much. I use water pressure to agitate it when I rinse it and it comes clean very quickly. Now if I were to start stirring it or otherwise pounding on it then it would take forever to rinse clean. I know, I made that mistake a long time ago.


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## mitche8359 (Feb 4, 2003)

Buck, yeah I wrote flourite when I meant laterite. Too many ites dancing around in my head. 

Is everyone else talking about flourite or laterite?


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Flourite here. But I would guess that rinsing Laterite would be a real chore. Wash it out, let it dry, repeat.


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## SNPiccolo5 (Oct 6, 2002)

I meant laterite when I said laterite and flourite when I said flourite.

Rex, what do you mean don't stir flourite when rinsing? Maybe I missed something, but I don't get how to rinse it otherwise....

-Tim


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

I put half a bag in a Rubbermaid tub. I use a hose end sprayer, the older brass type that you adjust by turning the body. I get a good spray going with it and just rinse the Flourite that way. I use the water pressure to keep it moving. I rinse till the tub is full then pour out the water, being careful not to lose the fines. Then I repeat. With normal Flourite I can usually get the stuff clean enough to use in three passes.


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## Massoor (Feb 13, 2003)

I getting confused.. I have a 55gallon tank, thus I would need 50 piunds of gravel(more or less). I plan on having it planted but nmot to densely because this being my first tank ever. Should i use only flourite for the substrate? OR should i buy one 25lb bag of flourite and one 25lb bag of gravel?

P.S would i mix the too, or just put one on bottome and other on top like in a layer fashion?


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## mitche8359 (Feb 4, 2003)

Ok what I was doing was basically the same but I also stirred it around the bucket as if I was panning gold. I still haven't added any to the tank. I just located some sand that I used for making a potting mix. I don't think it's play sand, most likely sand for mortar. Anyone know if it makes a difference? I finally got some fert sticks at lunch so I'm going to work on the substrate tonight.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Massoor you are going to need a lot more than 50 lbs of gravel. I used three bags of Flourite and about 40-45 lbs of gravel in my 55 and I wish I had gotten four bags of Flourite. I mixed my gravel and Flourite and love the look of it. Flourite comes in 15 lb bags so plan on at least three bags. You can mix Flourite with gravel up to a 50/50 ratio. But it's not based on weight but on volume.


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## Massoor (Feb 13, 2003)

So for my 55gal what would be just about perfect? how many bag of flouride(what size too?) and how much gravel? i lookingf or to buy some natural gravel. thanks a bunch


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## aquaphish (Dec 20, 2002)

If you read on the laterite instructions it indicates to rinse the stuff. You need to get out as much of the fine dust in the package. Laterite is really a mess to use because it is so light and when you disturb the substrate you will have cloudy water for days, especially if you don't rinse it out. That process takes a while. When I used it I placed it in a 5 gal. bucket and just filled the bucket with water. Then you want to lower the water pressure and just trickle it into the bucket so it will overflow slowly. At the same time gently stir up the laterite to release the fine sand and when you have a fairly clear water you can then mix it with some of the gravel. You won't get the rinse water to clear up completley but just get most of the dirt out. But it will give you some Iron content the plant need.

You want to place the laterite/gravel on the bottom and then about 1-1.5 inches of pure gravel on top. That will prevent the laterite from getting into the water column and cloud the water.

You will not have a very clear tank for a few days because there is still some fine dust that you won't remove from the rinse process. But it will clear up with in a few days and sometimes a few weeks. I would also make weekly water changes to help the clearing process.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Massoor, get no less than three bags of Flourite. It only comes in 15 pound bags so that is not a problem. Then get 50 lbs of small 1-2 mm gravel. Wash it all, mix it all, put it in the tank. If you want more then add another bag of Flourite. Also put about 4 cups of ground peat moss in the very bottom of the tank. It really makes a difference.


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

before i had some flourite special ordered i was thinking about using laterite. since the tank is already torn down i had considered adding the laterite to the bottom of the tank, then placing an udergravel filter plate over the laterite. i figured the ugf plate would merely serve to hold the laterite in place ie prevent it from clouding the water when moving plants around. anyway i probably won't go this route, but i thought i would post this to see if any of you had any thoughts on whether it might work.

of yeah, the ugf wouldn't actually be hooked up, of course...


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

You are begging for trouble if use that UGF plate.... hooked up or not in a planted tank. 
It defetes the rooting systems of plants and if it isnt hooked up it is a biological time bomb.

Been There ... Done That... Removed That :hehe:


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

hmmmm... thanks buck.

though i can't really see why it would be a time bomb. especially if there's no water flow per se. i can't see how it would be much different than, say, some tightly packed rocks.

man i once had a gorgeous tank full of crypts at one time with the filter plate in place. of course, this was probably more of a fluke than anything else.

cannot type any more... keyboard is getting clogged by mdf dust.

buck were you not going to post some pics today?
regards,

jart


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

The " Time Bomb " comes with any UGF Filter that does not circulate properly.
The whole premice to a UGF is that the water is constantly being "filtered" by the bacteria bed in the substrate.
Even with good water flow through the substrate(front to back of plate) you had to keep the fish mulm vaccumed or it would _plug_ areas in the plate. That build up you get is the Bomb I speak of. If you have ever taken down a tank that has an improperly working UGF you would *SMELL* what I mean !
There is no bacteria in the world that can catch up to that mess.
So now with a planted tank you have the roots that will take care of such toxic substrate buildups BUT the roots cannot get there because they are bound up by the UGF plate. This can happen very quickly too. 
Those 1/2" gaps under the plate now become sealed and very toxic just waiting to be released.
Now one day you decide to "uproot" some old plants and try something new...
Wellguess what ...
you have just released those evil fish killing GASES !  :fire:

I have always used and LOVED UGF's but in the planted world they have no place I have learned. 
The only disappointment in my 23 years of fishkeeping is that I didnt plant my tanks all along !

:hehe: :hehe:


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