# Massive fish die off. Chlorine posion or too much Prime?



## longgonedaddy (Dec 9, 2012)

Obvious question----was the temperature close? 

How many gallons of water replaced vs dose of prime?


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## ScottW (Sep 17, 2016)

Yeah, I always just did it by feel. The fish kind of looked deformed, not sure if that helps. I do 50% water changes so 30 gallons. I did atleat 10 capfuls


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## longgonedaddy (Dec 9, 2012)

What's the dosage recommend? I don't use prime. 

Also, is your tap water consistently the same parameters? Close enough to your tank?

Can you describe what your mean by deformed?


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Ten sounds like a lot but then I have not used Prime lately and am not sure of the amount. I suspect it is more of a different cause than the chlorine or Prime. 
Judging by feel can be a really haphazard way to judge temp as we feel things differently when we are warm/cold ourself.
But then unless it was so far off that the O2 was depleted. I would not jump to that , either. 
Several other suspects might come up first for the way they died fairly quickly and all at once. Temps make for stress and diseases but slow often slow working. Same with damage to gills from chlorine burning. It takes some time and the fish struggle to breathe. 
I might look more at things that might have come in during the change. Pollutants like soap, hand cremes, deodorant? 

I assume you were not able to watch how the fish died? That can often be a clue. After death the fish will begin to bloat and be misshapen almost immediately so not much clue there. If there are other fish, etc. in the tank there will often be tissue damage which can make us think they were killed but that is often post mortem. 

Sorry, not much more help.

check to verify the tank temp. A stuck heater can kill very quickly and if we don't test the temp well using a thermometer, that could be the cause. Warm water holds less O2 and kill quickly.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

1 capful to 50 gallons for new water..
2/50gal w/ high chloramines

UP to 5 capfuls for 50gal in a nitrite emergency...


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## ScottW (Sep 17, 2016)

longgonedaddy said:


> What's the dosage recommend? I don't use prime.
> 
> Also, is your tap water consistently the same parameters? Close enough to your tank?
> 
> Can you describe what your mean by deformed?


Eyes were big and bulging out, all the fish were very pale, tails looked messed up, almost like they were melted



PlantedRich said:


> Ten sounds like a lot but then I have not used Prime lately and am not sure of the amount. I suspect it is more of a different cause than the chlorine or Prime.
> Judging by feel can be a really haphazard way to judge temp as we feel things differently when we are warm/cold ourself.
> But then unless it was so far off that the O2 was depleted. I would not jump to that , either.
> Several other suspects might come up first for the way they died fairly quickly and all at once. Temps make for stress and diseases but slow often slow working. Same with damage to gills from chlorine burning. It takes some time and the fish struggle to breathe.
> ...


I almost make sure I dont shower or wash my hands a few hours before I do a water change. The other fish seems okay. From when I changed the water and lights went out was about 2 hours and everything was fine. I did a 25-30% water change after I got all the casualties out.


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## longgonedaddy (Dec 9, 2012)

What fish survived?


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## ScottW (Sep 17, 2016)

1 angelfish, 3 American flagfish, 1 bolivian ram, 3 black neon tetra, 1 harlequin rasbora, 6 albino cory, 4 peppered cory


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## longgonedaddy (Dec 9, 2012)

Hmm, if it were all fish that could take in atmospheric air, I'd lean toward the O2 deficiency.


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## ScottW (Sep 17, 2016)

I have co2 but I never saw the fish gasping for air. I never had a o2 problem before, how could it happen all of a sudden?


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## longgonedaddy (Dec 9, 2012)

ScottW said:


> I have co2 but I never saw the fish gasping for air. I never had a o2 problem before, how could it happen all of a sudden?


Trying to eliminate the obvious. 

Could anything have happened during the day?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Really you used enough Prime to treat 500 gallons of water and don't think that could be a problem?

Suggest you ask Seachem.. they can confirm if it indeed would be lethal..



> A: If your ammonia or nitrite levels are above 2 ppm, you can safely use up to 5 x the recommended amount.


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## ScottW (Sep 17, 2016)

longgonedaddy said:


> ScottW said:
> 
> 
> > I have co2 but I never saw the fish gasping for air. I never had a o2 problem before, how could it happen all of a sudden?
> ...


Thanks, I appreciate your help. No one is home so no one could of contaminated the tank.


jeffkrol said:


> Really you used enough Prime to treat 500 gallons of water and don't think that could be a problem?
> 
> Suggest you ask Seachem.. they can confirm if it indeed would be lethal..
> 
> ...


I sent them an email


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## redavalanche (Dec 7, 2014)

At twice the emergency amount I would say they just were not capable of living with whatever change to the parameters that took place. One cap is 5ml, you could have got away with 6ml total. I use 1ml for each 5gal bucket. 

Sorry for the loss. Hope things go better in the future.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Prime is almost a benchmark for this kind of products. That being said even if you were to put it in the tank, and refill from the tap, you should only dose for the total amount of water in the tank.
As with anything the poison lies in the dosage. Heck, you will die if you drink too much water.


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## Aqua99 (Jan 6, 2017)

250ml bottle treats 2,500gal. Prime is insanely strong stuff compared to many other brands doing the same thing. I usually do 2 drops per gallon. The good thing is a bottle goes a very long way.


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## quiquik (Dec 13, 2013)

That is a crazy amount of prime, I only use 5 ml when I change out 20 gallons of water on my 50 gal. once a week. Also refill from my kitchen sink with a garden hose after checking temp with a thermometer that I hold under the flow of water, but I do not think the deaths was do to temperature.


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## ScottW (Sep 17, 2016)

I wanted to be safe because the water was going into the tank from the Python water changer and I guess I conpletely over did it. Im bummed I lost all those fish


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Unless you are filling the tank with icy water, it is a non-event, rivers also get cold when it rains etc... and as long as your water stays somewhere in the green zone on the thermometer, there is no problem. You need top get closer to 15C to get into trouble with tropicals. Also, the effect would be almost instantaneous.


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## Beefy Fish (Feb 17, 2017)

Prime
Directions: Use 1 capful (5ml) for each 200L (50 gallons) of new water.

You used 10 doses. So you used enough prime to dose 500 gallons of new water but you only replaced 30 gallons.

Not sure if its toxic but that is a lot of extra prime that you put in, I would just be a little more careful in the future.

Sorry for your loss of fish


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## David Bresch (Dec 25, 2016)

Is there a "correct" way to treat water when doing a change? Besides getting the dose right? Should it be added to tank after the change?


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

I use a little more than a cap full for my 65 gallon, I'd bet it's from the prime overdose. You can dump the prime in while it's filling directly into the tank with no issues unless you OD on the prime which is what I'd bet happened here.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

David Bresch said:


> Is there a "correct" way to treat water when doing a change? Besides getting the dose right? Should it be added to tank after the change?


 Need to treat all water entering the tank BEFORE or at same time as new water is entering the tank with either hose or bucket's in my view.Easy to add a few drops to buckets .
Is suggested to treat for total volume of water the tank holds when using hoses from tap or Python.:wink2:


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## RobnSonji (Oct 6, 2013)

roadmaster said:


> Need to treat all water entering the tank BEFORE or at same time as new water is entering the tank with either hose or bucket's in my view.Easy to add a few drops to buckets .
> Is suggested to treat for total volume of water the tank holds when using hoses from tap or Python.:wink2:


I was going to mention this but you beat me to it.....when using Prime/Safe dose it for the entire tank volume and not just the amount of water change.

Although it really doesnt matter in this case since so much was used.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

You did overdo the prime dosage considerably. Can I ask why you dosed so much?


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## ScottW (Sep 17, 2016)

Freemananana said:


> You did overdo the prime dosage considerably. Can I ask why you dosed so much?


It was my first time using the Python hooked up to the sink. I wanted to make sure no chlorine got into the tank. I been doing the bucket method for a long time.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Not easy to look back and see the true cause for fish death. One of the first things I do when I find I have dead/dying fish is first aid and then test. First aid is often fresh water but before changing water, I take the time to dip a cup out to test after I do the first aid. 
After the crisis has passed and fish are not dying before my eyes, I then look for cause by testing. Ammonia and nitrite are the big tests to do as they are the killers that I can spot that way. Something as simple as one fish dying and stuck in the filter intake can throw things into turmoil. I often see comments about filters sucking fish in but I believe the fish often die and then drift over to be stuck in the intake. But a dead fish is almost instant ammonia it seems and that combined with almost stopping the filter can lead to lots of fish dying in what seems short time. 
I feel fish death could be compared to airline crashes in that it is rarely a single item but a progression of small items which leads to a major event. 
No idea on your case but this is a scenario which might happen at times. 
Slightly less than ideal water, we all let it happen at times. We do something like clean the filters too aggressively and knock the bacteria down. Then just since we have some time we may decide to move and level a bunch of the substrate. We may stir a bunch of gunk into the water, kill a bunch of bacteria on the gravel and maybe throw in that one foolish fish who decided to die today and you can see it can all wind up catching us. 
When we get home 8 hours later, it is really tough to figure. 
My main defense that has been learned from several hard knocks is that I DO NOT want to overwork at anything all at one time.

Added note on chlorine:
I think of chlorine as less of a hazard than many. I find it is not a quick kill but more like a repeated or prolonged sunburn. It does burn the gills and done often enough or really hard enough it weakens and does eventually kill. But it has to be a really, really strong level to kill quickly. Tap water is not that strong as it has to be weak enough to not harm our soft tissue.


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

A couple of additional things to consider.

Tap water often varies by season, sometimes it can vary on a day to day basis. For example, if the water company needs to add a lot more chemicals due to to lower quality of the incoming water.

Tap water can also be extremely low in oxygen. This can cause fish to suffocate if you make a big water change. Just because you didn't loose the entire tank doesn't mean this was not a problem.

This is why I'm not a big fan of the Python way of doing water changes. I fill a large rubbermaid trash can with the new water, make whatever adjustment I feel are needed and then use it.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

ScottW said:


> I do 50% water changes so 30 gallons. I did atleat 10 capfuls


obviously this was the issue... that is an insane amount of prime. did you even read the bottle?

i put about 6mL for water changes that size. you put in 50+


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## ScottW (Sep 17, 2016)

Seachems got back to me.....

Scott,

Thank you for your email. Yes, since you used over 16x the amount needed for your tank, I would say that it is highly likely that an overdose of Prime occurred. For 30 gallons, you would only need 3mL and you used 50mL of product.

I hope this helps, have a nice day!

Product Support 102086


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Sounds right. We all get caught short at times. About all we can do is review the what and why and try to do better. No big thing though. Most of us we find worse if we keep at the game. I once killed 97 African cichlids. It was winter and I thought they might get cold in the box!


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

No doubt it was the prime, I have seen similar reports before when overdosed.

I think your message to Seachem was printed out and stuck to the wall.


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## Aqua99 (Jan 6, 2017)

I thought I read years ago about a link between Prime OD and a drastic reduction in dissolved O2. It's probably compounded in many of our tanks that are already running a fine line on O2 percentages with CO2 injection.

Either way, sorry for your loss... although your post might prevent this from happing to others down the road.


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## PhilthyMcnasty (Oct 16, 2011)

Found this on Seachems site.
Prime Overdose -vs- Oxygen - Seachem Support Forums


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## David Bresch (Dec 25, 2016)

Is there some amount of water change that you don't need to treat? There is x chlorine in the tap water. If you do a ten percent water change that is .1x chlorine the fish deal with, and that chlorine is volatile and evaporates off. Why not skip the water treatment? And why dose for the whole tank?


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

David Bresch said:


> Is there some amount of water change that you don't need to treat? There is x chlorine in the tap water. If you do a ten percent water change that is .1x chlorine the fish deal with, and that chlorine is volatile and evaporates off. Why not skip the water treatment? And why dose for the whole tank?


What you say is true, but the bigger question is why put your tank at risk over a little bit of Prime?

Better to play it safe.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

".....................have a nice day!"

mpfmpfmpfmpf....really?
We need better complimentary closings....


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Indeed with average potable water, doing a 10% top-upis unlikely to get ppm Cl high enough to be much of a danger. Doing a 10% change is pointless though unless you have shrimp.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

David Bresch said:


> Is there some amount of water change that you don't need to treat? There is x chlorine in the tap water. If you do a ten percent water change that is .1x chlorine the fish deal with, and that chlorine is volatile and evaporates off. Why not skip the water treatment? And why dose for the whole tank?


This seems a somewhat logical question to ask and there is some background that may need to be discussed. First step for me is to define how much damage may be caused if we do not use ANY water treatment. Most of us who have done this game for long have done water changes and forgot to treat the water. I've done it at least ten times and it has never killed fish but then I also want to say that I do not plan to do it. I find chlorine to be something like sunburn. It reacts with organic material. So how much damage is done to the fish? It burns their eyes and other soft tissue just like it does when we go in a pool where the chlorine is stronger than the normal tap water. How much damage, how much burning? That depends on lots of things. When it's in the tank it reacts equally well with the algae, plants, dirt and fish so it is not just a question of how much chlorine but what amount winds up working on the fish versus how much reacts with the algae. 
The question can also be what chemical is in the tap water, chlorine or chloramine. Chloramine is designed and used because it stays in the water so they can treat at a far lower level. That is a catch -22 for fish, there is likely to be less there but it also stays longer. 
A lower level sunburn at twice as long and you can still get the same damage. So the question may be HOW Much damage is okay for you and your fish. Personally, I work for none! 

I treat my water before adding for several reasons. One is that I'm less likely to totally forget. Two is that it takes far less to treat the new water, rather than the old. If adding it to the tank, you have to use for the full volume of the tank to get the correct diffusion. Third is that I don't want my fish swimming around and absorbing an unknown amount of damage when it is so easy to avoid. Kind of like letting the kids play in the street because it will only be a small car that hits them?


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## DigityDog70 (Jan 20, 2017)

Sorry to hear this, that's tough ! I am going to go with extreme temp change/shock because that's so easy to do. I have killed fish because of this. That's my guess based on experience with water changes. Especially since now things have stabilised . ?? You may never know.


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## David Bresch (Dec 25, 2016)

Can you explain this? That a ten percent water change is pointless?

I also find hard to believe that something at one tenth strength creates one tenth the burn.

I am an amateur, in fact that might be grandiose. But when one reads the various "fish die off" posts they repeatedly seem to relate to water changes and overstocked tanks. One reason water changes seem to create problems is something no one really rates as an ever-present factor: human error.

Feel free to set me straight.

I think that in the thread in which someone outlined their plan for a maintenance-free tank, keeping the tank very under-stocked was part of it.


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## jgc (Jul 6, 2005)

I always used a cap for a water change in my 58. I do about 60% waterchanges. I thought it would handle a 100% change (given sand and rock decreasing the water volume. You had a 30 gallon aquarium, probably 25 gallons of water, half change, so you used a 500 gallon dose for 10 gallons of water.

My bottle says (after math) 1ml per 10 gallons.


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## ichthyogeek (Jul 9, 2014)

David Bresch said:


> Can you explain this? That a ten percent water change is pointless?
> 
> I also find hard to believe that something at one tenth strength creates one tenth the burn.


I'm not sure about the burn (you'd have to math things out to determine actual burn), but here's some basic stuff about 10% vs 50% water changes (I think I got it from a beginner's book about aquariums), which doesn't account for pH (which affects ammonia levels), temperature, or anything else. WARNING: MATH AHEAD

If you start out with two 10 gallon tanks, and do 10% weekly changes on one, and 50% weekly changes on the other, you eventually get something like this:
W1: 90% Original water in 10% tank, 50% original water in 50% tank
W2: 81% original water (bc 10% of 90 is 9, etc), 25% original water
W3: ~72% original water, 12.5% original water
etc, etc. Now imagine that with nitrates, and a relatively heavy bioload; at some point, if you keep on doing 10% water changes, your system will eventually be overloaded with nitrates. Ex. with a static rate of 10 ppm nitrate produced per week in the same tanks you get the following:
W1: 9 ppm in 10% tank, 5 ppm in 50% tank
W2: 17.1 ppm in 10% tank, 7.5 ppm in 50% tank
W3: ~24.4 ppm in 10% tank, 8.75 ppm in 50% tank
etc.

I think the 10% works with shrimp systems because you A)don't want to disturb the shrimp's aquarium from too much change bc it affects breeding, but B)the bioload in a standard shrimp tank is very, very tiny, in comparison to a fish tank of the same biomass (shrimp tend to be herbivorous, while most of the fish we keep are carnivores) and C) you're also probably keeping plants with shrimp as well.
Assume that shrimp produce a measly 1 ppm nitrate/week, and same formula:
W1: .9 ppm in 10% tank, .5 ppm in 50% tank
W2: 1.71 ppm in 10% tank, .75 ppm in 50% tank
And, you get it. And this isn't taking into account the plants that most shrimp are kept in, nitrate suckers like duckweed or water lettuce.

I would highly recommend grabbing some beginner's books about fishkeeping, they're highly useful. It's a pity that AFI and FAMA (aquarium keeping magazines) are no longer in print...they were super cool too.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

We could look all day at numbers and all the other factors but then I find it gets back to my basic point. Whether it is 10% or 50 percent, I do not want to do ANY damage that I can avoid. Shooting for any level of damage other than ZERO is just not part of my plan. 
We can often risk it and get by. But how many times do you plan to run a stop sign and assume you won't get killed?


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