# Target Levels and Dosing



## roland6543 (Sep 1, 2012)

Edited and bumped


----------



## fplata (May 20, 2012)

If you notice the range on the target values is a large one, in some cases 100% or more, depending on your water parameters you might have to adjust your dosing, but for the most part you should be in range. The EI method is simple. Go to the Barr report, Tom gives a great explanation both very technical and dumbed down (for people like me). 
I only dose gh bolster, kno3, k2po4 for my micros, for the micros I use CSM+B, but are looking to change for something with no copper, I have great results.


----------



## fplata (May 20, 2012)

Plantex CSM + B is composed of 1.50% magnesium, 0.10% chelated copper, 7.0% chelated iron, 2.0% manganese, 0.06% molybdenum, 0.40% zinc, 0.04% boron.


----------



## roland6543 (Sep 1, 2012)

fplata said:


> Plantex CSM + B is composed of 1.50% magnesium, 0.10% chelated copper, 7.0% chelated iron, 2.0% manganese, 0.06% molybdenum, 0.40% zinc, 0.04% boron.


Is the chelating agent EDTA.?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


----------



## fplata (May 20, 2012)

Yes that is correct


----------



## roland6543 (Sep 1, 2012)

fplata said:


> Yes that is correct


OK so I guess the Purigen has to come out. Pity. Thanks for the info.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Start dosing per EI recipe. 
Monitor the tank with both tests and visually. 
Adjust EI to suit.

I have pretty much low tech tanks.
I started EI dosing, and found... 
NO3 rising too much from fish food, so I reduced KNO3
KH2PO4: I know (from Diana Walstad's book) that fish food also contains enough phosphate, so I reduced that, too. I did not have a test, several years ago, when I started this. I have since gotten the phosphate test and have found I have been right on target! SO: Whatever you do to the KNO3, do to the KH2PO4. ie: If you cut the N dose in half, cut the P dose in half. 
K2SO4: Since I cut the KNO3 down I had to add K2SO4. Fish food does not supply K in enough quantity for my tanks. if I was dosing more KNO3 that might be enough, but I cannot dose that much N.
Your situation is a bit different, you will need to dose a potassium supplement since there is not any in your nitrate fertilizer. I understand the K tests are not very accurate at the hobby level, and it is hard to over dose on K, so I just keep on dosing K. Not at EI highest levels, but based on watching my plants. K deficiency is quite distinctive. 
Traces: Following the idea that fish food supplies N and P in pretty good amounts, fish food also supplies all the traces except iron in doses that are not too bad, so I dose CSM+B at the lowest EI dosing, and I add chelated iron to that. 
Water tests on tap and tank (GH, calcium) show that I do not need to dose GH booster in most of my tanks. I dose it only for my hard water tanks, and then only when I do a water change. 

As for how to get started: 
You are over thinking it. 
Start. 
Then see what happens, and adjust.


----------



## fplata (May 20, 2012)

I 100% agree with Diana, just get started


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

The basic idea of EI dosing is to not worry about overdosing that might result from following the table. Just do weekly 50% water changes to "reset" the tank back to acceptable levels of all of the fertilizer chemicals. When you do that the maximum level of each chemical is twice the total weekly dosage. Those levels are not harmful.

Once you get started, you can see what your plants look like, how they grow, without any nutrient shortages. Knowing this, you can then begin to reduce the dosage amounts and watch the plants to see if anything negative happens. If it does, just go back to the dosage where nothing negative happened. But, first you need to see how the plants do when they have more than enough of all nutrients.


----------



## roland6543 (Sep 1, 2012)

Yeah. I am inclined to overthink things. But that has also helped me avoid problems sometimes. As they say "measure twice and cut once". 

So, start I will (just waiting for my ferts to arrive). This is what I'm going with, unless anyone screams "watch out for....".

Fert Dose 
Ca(NO3)2 1t 
KH2PO4 1/8t 
K2SO4 1t
CaSO4.2H2O 2t
MgSO4.7H2O 1 1/2 t
CSM+B 3/16t

This should result in the following levels (I've gone for the lower side of the targets because I have a low(-ish) tech setup with DIY CO2 and 1.3W/g light):
NO3 8.9ppm
PO4 1.7ppm
K 10.8ppm
Ca 8.9ppm
Mg 2.7ppm
Fe 0.2ppm

I'm adding CaSO4.2H2O and MgSO4.7H2O because since I have been running the DIY CO2, I've noticed pH swings. That should help, right?

I'll alternate dosing dry macro's and CSM+B each day, no dose on the 7th day prior to day 1 50% PWC and a new dose of macro's.

Sound good?


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

You will get the same pH changes with CO2 no matter what else you add to the water. Those pH swings mean nothing to the fish or plants. Everyone who uses CO2 gets those same pH swings. 

The addition of all of that calcium can end up giving you a GH boost equal to half of your total weekly dose of Ca. If that is ok, I see nothing wrong with your dosages.


----------



## roland6543 (Sep 1, 2012)

Hoppy said:


> You will get the same pH changes with CO2 no matter what else you add to the water. Those pH swings mean nothing to the fish or plants. Everyone who uses CO2 gets those same pH swings.
> 
> The addition of all of that calcium can end up giving you a GH boost equal to half of your total weekly dose of Ca. If that is ok, I see nothing wrong with your dosages.


Excuse my ignorance, but while I'm pretty good with %, ppm, molar masses and such, I know dangerously little about hardness. I didn't intend having a hard water tank. So, unless there's a specific reason for adding the CaSO4 and MgSO4 (I thought to buffer the pH swing), I'd rather leave them out. So if its not going to buffer pH, do you recommend leaving them out?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

First, to correct my mistake: when you do 50% weekly water changes you limit the maximum concentration of anything dosed to twice the weekly dose, not half.

Buffering against pH changes due to CO2 additions is done by the KH, not the GH - by the Carbonate concentration, not the calcium/magnesium concentration. Even a KH of one degree is adequate for buffering. One reason to add magnesium is because your tap water may get all of its GH hardness from calcium, and very little from magnesium, which the plants need. Most tap water does contain enough calcium.

The reason for dosing nitrates as potassium nitrate is to get more potassium too. If you dose the full EI amount of KNO3, you rarely will need to dose additional potassium. If you dose GH builder, like Equilibrium, it contains potassium too, so that may add enough potassium without a need for KNO3 for potassium.


----------



## roland6543 (Sep 1, 2012)

OK so with the Ca from tap water and more from my dosing of Ca(NO3)2, I think I won't dose any more CaSO4. However I'll still dose MgSO4, perhaps just reduce it to 1t per dose. For the purpose of plant nutrients that is, not buffering. 

That should do it for now... and I'll adjust later on the basis of observed changes. 

If anyone has any more "watch outs", please let me know.

And thanks to everyone for their helpful comments.


----------



## sowNreap (Jun 10, 2012)

fplata said:


> Plantex CSM + B is composed of 1.50% magnesium, 0.10% chelated copper, 7.0% chelated iron, 2.0% manganese, 0.06% molybdenum, 0.40% zinc, 0.04% boron.





roland6543 said:


> Is the chelating agent EDTA.?
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2





roland6543 said:


> OK so I guess the Purigen has to come out. Pity. Thanks for the info.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


So it's true that you can't use Purigen if using Plantex CSM + B?? That amount of EDTA chelated iron will cause problems with it? Hadn't even thought about that or seen it mentioned before.

I've read so many people on here using Purigen and dosing IE .. guess they must not be using Plantex CSM + B. 

Wish I'd known that BEFORE I bought it.


----------



## fplata (May 20, 2012)

I have never seen that either, email the folks at seachem they will let you know


----------



## roland6543 (Sep 1, 2012)

sowNreap said:


> So it's true that you can't use Purigen if using Plantex CSM + B?? That amount of EDTA chelated iron will cause problems with it? Hadn't even thought about that or seen it mentioned before.
> 
> I've read so many people on here using Purigen and dosing IE .. guess they must not be using Plantex CSM + B.
> 
> Wish I'd known that BEFORE I bought it.


I can't say that with certainty. What I can say is that amines (EDTA belongs to this group) bonds to purigen and when regenerating with bleach, chloramines are formed which are then released into the tank during regular use. 

I have been in touch with Seachem on this issue and have had it confirmed. If you go to Seachems forums you will see my post on the subject.

What I don't know exactly is if the low levels of EDTA will have an appreciable effect or not. My educated guess on this is that the EDTA is absorbed on a cumulative basis over time, and upon regeneration is when the, now concentrated, effects of EDTA render the purigen toxic. Of course I don't have any data to support this, only what Seachem have said on the matter.


----------



## sowNreap (Jun 10, 2012)

So if chloramines are formed when regenerating can it then be soaked in water with Prime to bind those so they wouldn't get released into the aquarium? Or is that not possible because Prime technically only binds them for about 24hrs? At which time, the Purigen might start releasing them again unless Prime is used every 24hrs??

I don't really know how Purigen works technically speaking and only have a little knowledge of how Prime works.

edit: I'll check out that Seachem posting which maybe contains the answers to the questions I just asked.


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Virtually everyone who has a planted tank uses CSM+B or an equivalent trace mix, and many also use Purigen. This isn't a universal problem. Most likely the extremely low concentration of chelator in the mix - everything in the mix is at extremely low concentrations when dosed into the tank - prevents it from being a problem. In any case there is such a huge load of "data" from users, who don't see problems, that the probability of this being a problem is vanishingly low.


----------



## sowNreap (Jun 10, 2012)

Ok .. yeah you asked the same questions I did.


roland6543 on Seachem forum said:


> Tech Support HK said:
> 
> 
> > .....creating chloramines. If you are not using Prime as the dechlorinator, then there is a possibility for the chloramines to release into the aquarium.....
> ...


I do wish they provided a bit more indepth answers to your questions though. Rather than to just say they agree with "c" ... too risky to livestock to do otherwise. Especially in light of their statement you quoted. 

Yeah Hoppy .. that's what I was wondering if the concentration is so low that it wouldn't be a problem. And that so many are using it without problems. Maybe the chloramines release out so slow that weekly water changes keeps it in check. ???

I haven't even opened mine yet. Not sure what I'll do with it.


----------



## roland6543 (Sep 1, 2012)

I'd be concerned about the concentration abilities of purigen. Since it can last many months between regens, its the same as having 3 doses of csm per week multiplied by the number of weeks between regens. Its the additive effect of all this EDTA being concentrated on the purigen that may cause problems. 

Like others have commented above, I'm inclined to feel that the experience of many users over many years would suggest this is NOT a problem. At the same time, every so often a hobbyist complains of a mass unexplained die-off. 
It makes me nervous, and I'd like to hear from users that have long term experiences with purigen and csm, over multiple regens.


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

If the Purigen is taking the EDTA out of the trace mix you should see iron deficiencies. The iron, stripped of the chelator, would oxidize and be only very slowly available to the plants. Or, if the iron stays bound to the chelator and is also held by the Purigen, you would still see iron deficiencies. The only reason the chelator is in the mix is to keep the iron available to the plants.


----------



## roland6543 (Sep 1, 2012)

Hoppy said:


> If the Purigen is taking the EDTA out of the trace mix you should see iron deficiencies. The iron, stripped of the chelator, would oxidize and be only very slowly available to the plants. Or, if the iron stays bound to the chelator and is also held by the Purigen, you would still see iron deficiencies. The only reason the chelator is in the mix is to keep the iron available to the plants.


You make a good point Hoppy, but as I have been informed elsewhere in this post, the nature of fert dosing is that one adjusts the dose based upon the plant response. So, a reduced uptake would be compensated by a higher dose by the hobbyist and so on. 

I also suspect that purigen does not remove 100% of the listed "contaminants" in one pass. I think it removes organics (and amines) in multiple passes i.e. reduces the level by a percentage with each pass. If that's true, much of the chelated iron (and EDTA) will remain available for a while.

Since Seachem have given general warnings but no quantitative specifics (I feel holding a conversation with them on their forums is like talking to a lawyer.... they will obviously advise on the side of safety), we only know that Purigen does take up amines, and we know that EDTA is an amine. But here are some more ifs ands or buts to consider:

EDTA is a tertiary amine, thus offering no nitrogen covalent bonding site to bond to purigen. Perhaps its only primary and secondary amines that will bond to purigen?

I don't recall that Seachem specifically said that EDTA was a problem, they just said amines, and EDTA is an amine.

So.... 

I subjectively feel that this purigen plus EDTA is not a problem. But that's just my hypothesis and I'm reluctant to take the risk. If only we could get Seachem to be more specific.


----------



## roland6543 (Sep 1, 2012)

My ferts arrived today and my plants got their first dose of macros.


----------



## roland6543 (Sep 1, 2012)

Deleted. Moved to new thread.


----------

