# Advice allocating $1k budget for new tank?



## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

I've had a 20gal planted tank for about 5 years, and now that I graduated college I'm looking to upgrade. I'm thinking something in the range of 40-60gal would be about right, and I'm leaning toward the 40 breeder because I like the footprint (36" long x 18" wide x 17" tall).

Whereas my current tank has been a budget, low-tech build (Beamswork light, DIY CO2, HOB filter, etc.), I'd like to have a nicer setup with my new tank. Living with a pair of Kessils on a reef tank has spoiled me, and I'd really like programmable, dimmable lighting for my planted tank. Also, I want to be able to grow carpeting plants in this new tank. (It would be nice if my Downoi would grow together better.)

I'm budgeting $1000 to the hardware costs, although cheaper is always better. Right now I've allocated:

Filter: $157
Heater: $57
Leak detector: $26
Substrate: $7
DIY auto-doser: ~$50

That adds to ~$300, leaving $700 for the tank itself, stand, lights, and CO2 system (if I don't just continue DIY CO2).

I've been throwing around a few options for lighting, and IMO it pretty much boils down to the Current USA Satellite Plus Pro ($171) and the AI Prime HD Freshwater ($210/ea; probably would need two). (If you have any other dimmable, controllable lights in my budget, I'd love to hear your suggestions.)

I was thinking of snagging a 40 breeder during a PetCo $1/gallon sale for $40, buying their metal stand for $50, and splurging by getting a pair of AI Prime HD Freshwater lights ($220/ea). That brings the total to just over $800, leaving some room to spare.

However, the more I think about it, the more I realize a rimless tank and/or one with low-iron glass would be really nice. Unfortunately, they're way more expensive and significantly cut into the budget for the lights. For example, Glass Cages' 40 breeder (which I guess they call a "50 tall"?) runs $380. If I want to add low-iron glass to the front, that bumps it up to $430. That's over 1000% the cost of the PetCo tank.

Assuming I were to go that route, I'd have $270 left. Say $50 for the aforementioned stand, and the Satellite Pro (or one AI Prime, but I don't think that would be enough) would juuust squeak under my budget.

How would you guys prioritize here? Am I better off with the cheaper light and the better tank? The better lights and the PetCo tank? Or are both overkill, and I should get the cheaper light and the cheaper tank?

My other decisions (filter, heater, even tank size) are open to critique too - tell me how you'd spend my money.


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## Remmy (Jan 10, 2007)

I think it all comes down to your need for fancy light features

Personally i would do the following
Filter: cheaper Sunsun or some variant
Tank: Get the nice rimless
Lights: go for a much cheaper option at the cost of features
CO2: full pressurised setup, DIY isn't an option for good results here

Another option is to get the Petco tank, nice lighting as well as a few bags of Aquasoil or some other good substrate


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

For me, I'd prioritize the filter, lighting, substrate and if you're set on CO2, a good regulator - no cheaping out on regulators. Even if you're hiding it in a cabinet, it's just not something worth risking. 

If you'll absolutely need a heater, consider something for your in-line unit like a temperature controller. If you don't absolutely need a heater, don't get one now - get it later if it ends up being necessary.

Filters. I'm all about saving money where you can but with a tank that size, your budget will need to be adjusted for something quality, however. Even on my cheapest tanks (where I'm not using sponge filters), I've always tried to get reliable filters with decent warranty coverage. Eheim meets my personal requirements. But a 2217 won't be large enough for a 40B. Feel free to read around on the forum but I'm confident you'll find that you'll want a larger filter or multiple filtration units. 

Don't cheap out on substrate. Get something good like Aquasoil or one of the others on the market. Just do it. Get that out of the way up front and you won't regret it. I've never once regretted spending the money on good substrate.

Say no to the autodoser until you're absolutely certain what you'll need to dose, how often, that sort of thing. Don't make it an up-front purchase. Honestly, you may not ever want one if your routine ends up being something that isn't too intense. Making it a part of your regular tank maintenance will help you stick to it and feel more connected.

Leak detector - shop around for those. There are even some 'smart' options that are affordable for everyone.

Lighting. I'm partial to Current. But I'm also a big fan of high-quality LEDs that you just stick on a manual timer or smart plug. All the bells and whistles aren't always necessary - even if you're trying to automate as much as possible. I have a couple Current fixtures that have remote controls - but I didn't opt for timers or other connectivity options. In order to 'smarten' them up, I've used button pressers like the ones from SwitchBot in order to turn my lighting sequence on and off every day. You can still customize everything from intensity to color and effect.

The tank itself. I love rimless and high-clarity tanks. They're primarily what I have. I also know them to be, based on extensive experience, an extreme waste of money on occasion. Not always - but sometimes. Especially when it comes to larger tanks. Since you're open to tanks with rims, I recommend considering Deep Blue Professional. Their glass clarity is a bit better than other manufacturers and the black silicone they use ends up looking way better than clear/translucent used by other standard tank manufacturers. It just sort of disappears when you're looking at the tank. In part because their silicone work is always clean and some of the cheaper options are just an absolute mess.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Welcome to TPT.

Low iron rimless tanks in the 90P class (~ 36x18x18) are ~ $500 new.

For such tank you will need x2 Current/Fluval/AI Prime lights: ~$400+
A decent co2 setup ~$250+
A 200-300w heater $30-70
Heater controller $30
Cannister filter ~350 gph ~$175
Substrate $20 - $150
Stand? Petco's metal stands suck (I have 2 and they wobble)


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

somewhatshocked said:


> The tank itself. I love rimless and high-clarity tanks. They're primarily what I have. I also know them to be, based on extensive experience, an extreme waste of money on occasion. Not always - but sometimes. Especially when it comes to larger tanks. Since you're open to tanks with rims, I recommend considering Deep Blue Professional. Their glass clarity is a bit better than other manufacturers and the black silicone they use ends up looking way better than clear/translucent used by other standard tank manufacturers. It just sort of disappears when you're looking at the tank. In part because their silicone work is always clean and some of the cheaper options are just an absolute mess.


I like deep blue but










also
https://www.bbb.org/us/ca/city-of-industry/profile/aquarium-dealers/deep-blue-professional-aquariums-aquatic-accesso-1216-262659


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Yep, that sucks. But there are a ton of them at retailers in my area and in the other markets I frequent (DC area and LA). So definitely worth checking out. 

From what I can tell, their tank manufacturer/OEM is releasing with others soon. No clue what those brands are or will be called, though.



Wobblebonk said:


> I like deep blue but
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

Substrate $7? Depending on what you are using- I would assume that will increase as im sure you will want hardscape stones and manzanita (or likewise). And your ferts the first year need to be accounted for if you dont already have them.

For my tanks- lets say a 10 gal. It cost me upwards to 450.00
(10 gallon tank, canister filter, CO2 unit with regulator, etc, substrate, plants, hardscape, lighting (chiros) and wonderful lily pipes that broke on first water change *angry face. Ferts I had on hand from my other 6 tanks.... but it was an expensive little tank)


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## jayo (Sep 21, 2016)

Cheap, dimmable, controllable lighting? You can go pretty cheap here, unless you want to be able to control the color temperature of the lights.

Two Beamswork DA FSpecs (or other budget LED strip) both hooked up to a TC420 controller (or each hooked up to their own S2-Pro controller, which are less flexible than the TC420 but the wiring is easier) is what I'd do. If you want to go with a single light fixture for a cleaner look (not a bad idea if you go for a fancy rimless tank), look into a Chihiros LED or other higher-par strip, and attach a controller to it. Make sure you research that the controller you choose is compatible with the fixture you choose. I have tested the TC420 and the S2-Pro with both a beamswork da-fspec and a nicrew tricolor and they work great.

I'm a fan of separating the LED control aspect from the light fixture. That way you can replace either component separately.

For a 40 gallon tank, pressurized CO2 will end up being easier and cleaner looking, because you can do an inline atomizer/diffuser, and it is convenient to be able to easily change the CO2 rate to meet your needs. But I still do DIY CO2 on a 20 gal, and for a 40 you could do two 2-liter bottles, refill one each week staggered.

I would de-prioritize the auto-doser.


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## mboley (Jan 26, 2018)

You can save money on lighting by going with a 36" T5 light fixture. A two bulb unit is cheap and the par, spectrum, light quality,and clarity is still superior to LEDs imo. If you have been on this site you know that most LED fixtures lack the red spectrum. 

You could also go with a four bulb unit for a higher light tank and the best tank coverage possible. With two plugs controlling a pair of bulbs each you can still achieve a dawn dusk affect. Just look for a Hydroponic fixture; fixtures marketed for aquariums are more expensive.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

All of the fixtures OP mentioned have all the lighting necessary for a planted tank. And they're wildly efficient compared to CF T5 bulbs. It's merely a misconception, at this point, that CF is in any way superior.

They haven't been superior to LEDs in years. And most LED fixtures geared toward planted tanks contain proper reds and have for years. The last Current fixture I bought was in 2012 and it had proper reds way back then. So did Finnex and all the other rebranders. Even the cheap Beamswork rigs from fleabay had everything necessary... years ago.



mboley said:


> You can save money on lighting by going with a 36" T5 light fixture. A two bulb unit is cheap and the par, spectrum, light quality,and clarity is still superior to LEDs imo. If you have been on this site you know that most LED fixtures lack the red spectrum.


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## jayo (Sep 21, 2016)

fluorescent lights have two important disadvantages. They have higher operating costs than LEDs (combination of less efficient use of electricity and bulb replacement), and most importantly, aren't dimmable. With LEDs you can get fantastic controllability that really helps with viewing and algae control.


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

If I were you I'd do:

Red Sea Reefer 250
ADA Aquasoil
Used reg from TPT
Fluval 3.0
Eheim Jäger heater in sump
Inkbird Temp controller

After digging in the reef world, I've realized the freshwater tanks are crap. Even the high clarity tanks, none have an overflow, so you end up getting a big filter and paying 150-200 for glass lily pipes and clear tubing that you have to clean constantly. You have to buy the inline heater to hide it from the tank, if you have a sump, just buy a normal heater and throw it in the sump. Plus you can more easily run an ATO. Look at what Tom Barr runs. He has a custom star fire tank with an overflow. I believe he's using the Mame.


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## mboley (Jan 26, 2018)

Have you two LED advocates seen the tanks by Burr740 and others on this site that use T5s? Those tanks look the way they do in great part due to T5's. Have you compared Par readings to T5's? Have you read Dennis Wongs site? Have you owned both and compared? If you have then you know many of your claims are contradicted.


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## Vadim Shevchuk (Aug 28, 2009)

I have set up a 40B for cheap before. Bought one during the dollar per gallon sale and I ordered a stand when it was on sale and I used a gift card purchased through gift card resellers to get an additional 25% off. Since you are used to the reef world. I would keep an eye out and try to find an ELOS 70 for sale used on a forum. I had an elos tank before and I just took out the overflow and siliconed a piece of glass to cover the the drilled holes.


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## mboley (Jan 26, 2018)

jayo said:


> fluorescent lights have two important disadvantages. They have higher operating costs than LEDs (combination of less efficient use of electricity and bulb replacement), and most importantly, aren't dimmable. With LEDs you can get fantastic controllability that really helps with viewing and algae control.


The operating cost difference is worth it in my opinion. Besides electricity, if I have to replace four $25 bulbs once per year that's $8.50 per month. 

Regarding controllability, I can change bulb colors anytime, giving me superior controllability versus LEDs. No I can't dim, but I can put two pairs of bulbs on different circuits and get better dawn dusk affects. My dawn looks different that my dusk, and both look different than full intensity mid day, and they all look great and bring out the red colors in plants. That's controllability. I don't miss the ramp down to zero light, it's minor and makes no difference to the plants.

Finally, I have yet to see a LED fixture than gives full intense light coverage to an entire tank 
the way a properly sized T5 fixture can without irritating spill over light.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

somewhatshocked said:


> All of the fixtures OP mentioned have all the lighting necessary for a planted tank. And they're wildly efficient compared to CF T5 bulbs. It's merely a misconception, at this point, that CF is in any way superior.
> 
> They haven't been superior to LEDs in years. And most LED fixtures geared toward planted tanks contain proper reds and have for years. The last Current fixture I bought was in 2012 and it had proper reds way back then. So did Finnex and all the other rebranders. Even the cheap Beamswork rigs from fleabay had everything necessary... years ago.





jayo said:


> fluorescent lights have two important disadvantages. They have higher operating costs than LEDs (combination of less efficient use of electricity and bulb replacement), and most importantly, aren't dimmable. With LEDs you can get fantastic controllability that really helps with viewing and algae control.


The argument sort of goes both ways. I don't deny the advantages of LEDs, but to add to the indecision, I run Current Satellite Plus Pros and well, let's just say, there's a bunch of guys on here running T5HOs that have me wanting. The color rendering ability from mixing the tubes are second to none if you're into that "fruit stand" look of scaping. I'm currently having a hard time finding the right premade LED fixture replacement that has enough PAR and ALSO the "right" color rendering for what seems to be pretty to me. AIprime and Ecotech? A little warm... and perhaps too real to sunlight. Maybe the sbreeflights, but a lot are criticizing their aesthetics. Will need @jeffkrol to custom create something maybe. 

Anyway, that's sort of nitpicking. If you want a high tech tank, first and foremost, you need CO2, and a real way to deliver it. In a rock solid consistency. DIY CO2 is going to become serious weekly burden at the levels that you need -- especially if you're driving it with the latest high light setups. Don't have CO2 right with high light? That's just a real expensive algae farm. So that's where I would put my priority. Real tank, real regulator, real needle valve / flow meter, real reactor, real delivery. I second, third, or fourth those who have CO2 listed as a priority. Everything else, can be compensated for somehow -- I think.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

I use both T5s (and T8s) and LEDs and have for years and years. I also believe there are far better sources (experts, even) than Barr - though he does have great tanks and I've purchased a ton of plants from those tanks. Many of the other 'experts' are here on the forum. Some of whom have been mentioned.

This isn't so much a debate/argument/fight - but LEDs perform as well as, if not better than, T5s for most hobbyists. As thousands of forum members have demonstrated and several here in the thread have brought up. It's pretty much proved at this point. People can fire up their googlers or just use the search function here on the forum to see that for themselves. We even have a large sub-forum called "Lighting" that people can read through. Everything from first-hand experience with various fixtures, tons of PAR data, color temp data, you name it. 

Replacing bulbs every 10-12 months isn't just wasteful at this point in life - it's harmful. To the very environments our hobby strives to protect. Folks can debate the ins and outs of it but that's an undeniable fact these days. People are free to do as they wish and are entitled to their opinion but not their own facts. There's a reason most of us use LEDs and have for quite a few years now. Just some of them: They produce effects identical to or better than fluorescent bulbs (including color - if someone puts in any effort at all, they can easily figure that part out), they use far less energy, they're less wasteful, they produce less heat, they're more customizable, they're less harmful to the environment, they are affordable, they're easier to integrate into high-tech (think computers & web, not CO2) setups.

One huge benefit of having a forum like this: there are nearly 20,000 tank journals here that are conveniently available for perusal in the "Tank Journals" and "Planted Nano Tanks" sections. I would encourage anyone in the market for lighting or those just interested in learning to check them out. Tons upon tons of tanks that are beautifully lit with LEDs. 

Most fancier LED setups you can buy are wholly customizable on the color temperature front. Even the cheaper Current fixtures are great for that. The variety of devices on the market from just the past couple years really blow my mind in terms of quality and function. And when you get into DIY LED setups, well, that's an entirely more insane and customizable world. 

I guess I don't get the old school folks clinging to a dying technology. 

Since none of this really matters, as OP already plans to buy an LED rig, the only thing they have to consider is how much they want to spend. For me, I'd go cheaper. But that's just because I have too much of a planted tank habit and am spread thin.
@Couesfanatic kinda hit on something I mentioned in another thread this week - reef-centric tanks. Opens up a whole new world for some of us. Not only do they tend to be fancier in terms of being drilled, having overflows and all that. They're frequently easier to maintain in terms of filtration because of sumps. If OP ever considers going that route, it may present quite a few opportunities we sometimes ignore on the freshwater side of things.

Some of those things I enjoy about sumps: Frequently easier (and usually cheaper) filtration material options. Larger water volume for a bit of increased stability. If a pump goes bad, it's easy to replace without having to toss an entire filter or get it repaired. Just stick a new one in and you're good to go. 

Recently had an Eheim fail on one of my main shrimp breeding tanks and found it about 50% cheaper to go the sump route. If it weren't an easy fix because I already had the parts on-hand, I'd have sumped it right away.

Many newer reef tanks, when used for freshwater purposes, won't even need a sump. Some have 'false' backs that contain filtration units and spots for heaters and other equipment that just makes things easier.


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

We can get in another discussion about heaters.... depending on what you are going to house- your room temp is prolly sufficient and with your lighting system your aquarium will heat it up substantially. I have Chihiros.... worst decision I have made for my tanks as my app NEVER works.


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

Duplicate.


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

Duplicate.


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

Just had a thought - what about using LED flood lights with the TC420 as a poor man's pendant lighting? Would the color temperature look bad, or do you guys know of floods that would work well for this?

I tried to post a few longer replies (one of them over 3 hours ago, I think), but they both said they required mod approval. Weird that I could post the thread, but not the replies to my own thread... I suspect this won't go through right away either.

Edit: What...? I'm confused why this would post, but my others wouldn't.

My first response was long enough that I typed it in word, so here's that one:

Wow, can't believe how many responses I got. Thank you everyone, this forum is great!



Remmy said:


> I think it all comes down to your need for fancy light features
> 
> Personally i would do the following
> Filter: cheaper Sunsun or some variant
> ...


Thanks for the advice. If CO2 is essential, I'll add that to the mix and start running some numbers. Any specific brand/model suggestions?

I'll have my aquarium upstairs, and I'm really afraid of it leaking. I'd heard the Sunsun filters had a tendency to leak, at least more so than the Eheims.

I know Aquasoil is the absolute best, but I've read on here that lots of people have had good luck with montmorillonite clay substrate (Safe T Sorb). I would need two 9L bags of Aquasoil, and at $53 a pop that's $100 more than the Safe T Sorb. Is that really worth it?



somewhatshocked said:


> For me, I'd prioritize the filter, lighting, substrate and if you're set on CO2, a good regulator - no cheaping out on regulators. Even if you're hiding it in a cabinet, it's just not something worth risking.
> …


Thanks! What’s the risk with a cheap regulator – that it dumps tons of CO2 into the water? Also, any recommendations there, or a ballpark cost?

Are you sure the 2217 wouldn’t be enough? I did a fair amount of research, and I got the impression that it was on the verge of being too big for a 40. It does 250gal/hr; the next size up jumps all the way to 600gal/hr.

As I mentioned above, Aquasoil would cost me about $100 more. I don’t know a whole lot about substrates, but my research indicated the clay was a pretty competitive option, with a CEC over 30. Is Aquasoil that much better? I do really like the look of the Amazonia Aquasoil, although I like the Safe T Sorb too.

Fair point on the auto-doser. I just had that in the budget in case I felt like a project (I made my dad an auto-doser for his reef tank, and I thought it would be fun to try to improve on that). But come to think of it, I really don’t even remotely mind dosing stuff weekly, and you’re right about making you feel more connected! I’ll scratch that off the budget for now.

I’ve had all my lighting on timers for… a decade? It works, but I’m just to a point where I really want the soft-on/soft-off functionality an automated, dimmable light brings.

I’ve looked at Deep Blue, but I don’t recall seeing a 40B listed. I’ll go back and give it another look. How do they compare to Glass Cages? I’ll be driving right by Glass Cages’ facility, so I’d save on shipping by buying from them.

Huh, I never knew black was better. The huge white seams are pretty distracting though – maybe a fancier rimmed tank would be a good compromise between PetCo and the rimless one.



OVT said:


> Welcome to TPT.
> Low iron rimless tanks in the 90P class (~ 36x18x18) are ~ $500 new.
> For such tank you will need x2 Current/Fluval/AI Prime lights: ~$400+
> A decent co2 setup ~$250+
> ...


I appreciate you breaking it down for me.

Man, those 90P tanks look so nice. Thanks, I wasn’t even aware of ADA tanks. I think $500 is out of my budget, but maybe I can find one used or something.

So you’re saying even if I went with the Satellite, I’d need two fixtures? I definitely wouldn’t want to have two of those over the tank, so that makes me inclined toward the AIs.

How do you feel about inline heaters? And is a controller necessary even with a newer digital heater? (I’ve had the thermostat stick on an old-style heater, but there’s no element to stick on a digital one.)

Lastly, do you have any suggestions for the stand? I wasn’t hot on the metal stand either, but I couldn’t find anything else within my budget. I could always build my own, but I won’t have easy access to woodworking tools.



livebearerlove said:


> Substrate $7? Depending on what you are using- I would assume that will increase as im sure you will want hardscape stones and manzanita (or likewise). And your ferts the first year need to be accounted for if you dont already have them.
> For my tanks- lets say a 10 gal. It cost me upwards to 450.00
> (10 gallon tank, canister filter, CO2 unit with regulator, etc, substrate, plants, hardscape, lighting (chiros) and wonderful lily pipes that broke on first water change *angry face. Ferts I had on hand from my other 6 tanks.... but it was an expensive little tank)


Good catch on the hardscape stuff. That will probably add another $100 or so (just a guess; been awhile since I bought any of that stuff).

I still have some fertilizer left over from my current tank, so I’m not considering that for now. The $1000 isn’t an absolute limit, it’s just an arbitrary amount I want to limit myself to for the up-front costs.



jayo said:


> Cheap, dimmable, controllable lighting? You can go pretty cheap here, unless you want to be able to control the color temperature of the lights.
> 
> Two Beamswork DA FSpecs (or other budget LED strip) both hooked up to a TC420 controller (or each hooked up to their own S2-Pro controller, which are less flexible than the TC420 but the wiring is easier) is what I'd do. If you want to go with a single light fixture for a cleaner look (not a bad idea if you go for a fancy rimless tank), look into a Chihiros LED or other higher-par strip, and attach a controller to it. Make sure you research that the controller you choose is compatible with the fixture you choose. I have tested the TC420 and the S2-Pro with both a beamswork da-fspec and a nicrew tricolor and they work great.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info! Changing the color temp would be nice, but it isn’t a must. I’d actually considered doing something with Beamswork lights, but I thought it took some DIY Arduino work to dim and automate them. 

I’m fairly handy, so I’m sure I could make that TC420 work. How easy is it to program? Do you notice any flickering when the lights are dimmed? How low can it dim the fixtures – can it go all the way down to moonlight level?

I don’t think I’d want two fixtures (although if it would save me a few hundred bucks – maybe), so it’s good to know that the controller works with other fixtures. I was thinking the Finnex Ray 2, but it looks like that’s been discontinued?

I think I might stick with DIY in the beginning at least. I use two 2-liters on my 20, but I only change one a month – I use brewer’s yeast, so they last longer.



Couesfanatic said:


> If I were you I'd do:
> Red Sea Reefer 250
> ADA Aquasoil
> Used reg from TPT
> ...


Sumps are nice (especially for a reef tank), but I don’t think I want to go that way. 

I hadn’t thought about the ATO. (How do you do that without a sump – does the float have to be up top on the side of your tank?) I'll probably do a DIY ATO with an Arduino, so I guess I just need to find a really unobtrusive float switch.

All I’m finding for the Red Sea Reefer 250 is an entire system that’s $1350. Can you get just the tank?

Would a single 60W fixture be enough to grow carpeting plants in that 250?



Vadim Shevchuk said:


> I have set up a 40B for cheap before. Bought one during the dollar per gallon sale and I ordered a stand when it was on sale and I used a gift card purchased through gift card resellers to get an additional 25% off. Since you are used to the reef world. I would keep an eye out and try to find an ELOS 70 for sale used on a forum. I had an elos tank before and I just took out the overflow and siliconed a piece of glass to cover the the drilled holes.


What stand did you get?

Wow, that ELOS is crazy expensive.


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

I'm not sure, but I'm hypothesizing that the quick reply box somehow circumvents mod approval, whereas the reply page goes through them. Anyway, here's my best attempt to reconstruct my second response:



ipkiss said:


> ...
> Anyway, that's sort of nitpicking. If you want a high tech tank, first and foremost, you need CO2, and a real way to deliver it. In a rock solid consistency. DIY CO2 is going to become serious weekly burden at the levels that you need -- especially if you're driving it with the latest high light setups. Don't have CO2 right with high light? That's just a real expensive algae farm. So that's where I would put my priority. Real tank, real regulator, real needle valve / flow meter, real reactor, real delivery. I second, third, or fourth those who have CO2 listed as a priority. Everything else, can be compensated for somehow -- I think.


Thanks for sharing your knowledge! I'll definitely do my best to budget for a pressurized CO2 system. Any suggestions for brands/models for a budget build?



somewhatshocked said:


> ...
> Since none of this really matters, as OP already plans to buy an LED rig, the only thing they have to consider is how much they want to spend. For me, I'd go cheaper. But that's just because I have too much of a planted tank habit and am spread thin.
> 
> @Couesfanatic kinda hit on something I mentioned in another thread this week - reef-centric tanks. Opens up a whole new world for some of us. Not only do they tend to be fancier in terms of being drilled, having overflows and all that. They're frequently easier to maintain in terms of filtration because of sumps. If OP ever considers going that route, it may present quite a few opportunities we sometimes ignore on the freshwater side of things.
> ...


In your opinion, how many watts of LED would I need to grow carpeting plants in the 40B? Or, since watts doesn't tell the whole story, how many of the fixtures mentioned in this thread (Satellite, AI Prime HD, Beamswork, etc.) would I need? I think for coverage I'd need two Primes, but do you think I'd need two of the others as well?

Sumps are definitely nice, but they add some complication and expense. Once I graduate grad school, I'll probably do a larger freshwater tank with a sump. For anyone who goes that route, I'd highly recommend not buying a tank with the overflow already in it. You can save money and get a better result drilling the tank and making the overflow yourself, unless you want the bottom drilled so you don't see pipes behind the tank. For example, in my 75g reef, the portion of the overflow inside the tank is only about 16" x 5" x 1.5", and you hardly notice it compared to one of the huge ones that go all the way to the bottom.



livebearerlove said:


> We can get in another discussion about heaters.... depending on what you are going to house- your room temp is prolly sufficient and with your lighting system your aquarium will heat it up substantially. I have Chihiros.... worst decision I have made for my tanks as my app NEVER works.


My house will range from about 65 °F at night in the winter to 74 °F midday in the summer, so I think a heater will be necessary. In my experience, LEDs don't add that much heat to the tank.

Is the Chihiros light supposed to be controllable with your phone? (assuming that's what you mean "app")


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Cheap regulators can do that and are notorious (for lack of a better word) for something called end of tank dump. On top of other types of failure and uncertainty that are no fun. It may not be common but it's not worth the risk. Hit up the For Sale section here on the forum. You'll spend anywhere from $150-$400 for a decent used regulator and parts necessary to use it. 

Pretty certain 2217 probably won't cut it for a 40. I have two on a 70ish gal tank I have and wish I had more. Planted tank nerds tend to go way overboard, though. Maybe if your bioload is low it'll be fine. Given any thought to specifically what livestock you want to house in the tank?

Aquasoil or something similar is absolutely worth the cost. Also aesthetically pleasing. While it's not a must, I certainly would use it if I had a thousand dollar budget for a tank build. It makes plant care so much easier. High CEC substrates are just fine. But they won't look or perform anything like Aquasoil. It also makes life easy when you're first setting up your tank and want to get it cycled. 

Absolutely with you on the light fixture situation. Particularly since you want more of a show/display tank. 

As another member mentioned, Deep Blue (as a brand) is being discontinued. Which means you'd likely be able to get a killer deal on a tank if you check with local shops in your region. The black really does make a difference, in my opinion, on smaller (under 100-150gal) tanks that aren't rimless. 



GeorgeTheGuppy said:


> Thanks! What’s the risk with a cheap regulator – that it dumps tons of CO2 into the water? Also, any recommendations there, or a ballpark cost?
> 
> Are you sure the 2217 wouldn’t be enough? I did a fair amount of research, and I got the impression that it was on the verge of being too big for a 40. It does 250gal/hr; the next size up jumps all the way to 600gal/hr.
> 
> ...


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

GeorgeTheGuppy said:


> I usually let the house get down to mid-60s at night in the winter, and in the summer it can get as hot as 75 (°F). I think I'll probably need a heater.
> 
> Really? The Chihiros lights are (supposed to be) controllable with your phone?



Depends on what you are going to have- discus? ok then heater. But many other breeds dont need high heat (livebearers, etc)- especially since the lights WILL heat up the water when on for a decent cycle. I have lived all over the world- and even caught wild tropical fish. 'Tropical' fish get to 60 at night... but then heat up during the day, cyclical. 



I Got the Chihiros- Almost daily I deal with the drama on the app. Even this morning IT decided it wasnt going to turn on... and when I tried to correct it- it reverted back to a setting from months ago. I invested a lot into the system... The colors are brilliant, the settings and controls are stunning, the low profile beauty is awesome.......but something is just not right about it... Im building another tank as we speak and I wont buy that brand again.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

livebearerlove said:


> Depends on what you are going to have- discus? ok then heater. But many other breeds dont need high heat (livebearers, etc)- especially since the lights WILL heat up the water when on for a decent cycle. I have lived all over the world- and even caught wild tropical fish. 'Tropical' fish get to 60 at night... but then heat up during the day, cyclical.
> 
> 
> 
> I Got the Chihiros- Almost daily I deal with the drama on the app. Even this morning IT decided it wasnt going to turn on... and when I tried to correct it- it reverted back to a setting from months ago. I invested a lot into the system... The colors are brilliant, the settings and controls are stunning, the low profile beauty is awesome.......but something is just not right about it... Im building another tank as we speak and I wont buy that brand again.


What breeds (species and varient) are these fish? Granted Ive never had livebearer's so can not give any context on those. But, what other freshwater fish can, in the aquarium, fluctuate from 60 degrees at night to 75 in the day?


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

I think I'll start with the 2217, and if I run into issues I'll figure it out then.

Very tentatively I'm thinking something like 11 rummy-nose tetra; a dwarf gourami (or a breeding pair if I could get my hands on a female); either 5ish smaller loaches, panda cories (5-10), or pygmy cories (10-15); 5-10 oto cats; maybe a Siamese algae eater; and a boatload of cherry shrimp. I'd really like discus though, so maybe I'd substitute a pair for the gourami(s) and the bottom-dwellers. So a moderate bioload?

I'll also consider Aquasoil a little more seriously. I'm a little apprehensive of the difficulty planting stuff in the coarse particles of Safe T Sorb.


I'm kind of concerned about temp swings stressing my livestock, especially since I'll be breeding stuff.

That's frustrating about the lights, it sucks when stuff doesn't work like it's supposed to.


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## jayo (Sep 21, 2016)

Do you have any plan for what kinds of plants you want to keep? What style of aquascape you're hoping to achieve?


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

I'll be honest, I've had a planted tank for about 5 years but I'm still kind of a noob. 

I don't know many plants off the top of my head; I'll have to research plant choices once I get the hardware nailed down. I definitely want to keep Downoi, and I like crypts, but other than that I have no idea.

I like a more plant-heavy style, so Dutch really appeals to me, but I don't know that I have the time for the upkeep that requires.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

GeorgeTheGuppy said:


> I think I'll start with the 2217, and if I run into issues I'll figure it out then.
> 
> Very tentatively I'm thinking something like 11 rummy-nose tetra; a dwarf gourami (or a breeding pair if I could get my hands on a female); either 5ish smaller loaches, panda cories (5-10), or pygmy cories (10-15); 5-10 oto cats; maybe a Siamese algae eater; and a boatload of cherry shrimp. I'd really like discus though, so maybe I'd substitute a pair for the gourami(s) and the bottom-dwellers. So a moderate bioload?
> 
> ...


 If you are breeding discus- they would need to be alone in a forty breeder. An adult size confirmed pair. Otherwise they will chase each other until one dies of stress related issues. If other fish are with them the spawn will be eaten or the parents so stressed that they will eat the spawn every time. 



The only fish temperature compatible with discus ( temps at or above 82 degrees) on your list ( if you just wanted a pair, but not interested in breeding) would be the otocinclus and Rummy-nose. All other fish do well under 78 degrees. 



certain loaches can be without a heater
shrimp I have no experience with
All other fish on list require heater.


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

Are you space limited to a 40B? I have a 40B and really like it but if I had the space I would have gotten the 75, longer and slightly taller 40B essentially. Minimal price difference when they go on sale. 

Dont forget local CL for deals on stuff. Alot of overpriced junk out there but also some decent deals when people are moving or just wanna get rid of stuff.


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

I don't think I'd try to breed the discus - that's way too involved for me. However, I'd forgotten they need such high temps. Maybe not then, as that cuts down on shrimp lifespan.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

This has been an interesting thread.

Sounds like the makings of a great tank.

My two cents. Do not go DIY CO2. You want stable dependable CO2 levels. Plenty of successful tanks use inert substrate, and BDBS is cheap/looks great. Burr740 did an experiment a short time ago comparing BDBS to Aquasoil, and you can read about it in his journal. Canister filter is fine for a tank that size (the more filtration the better). In line heaters work great. A temp controller adds an extra fail safe. 

And don't discount using T5HO. You mentioned a "Dutch" scape. The AGA Dutch category has been won the past four years by tanks that use T5. And of all of the gold, silver, and bronze medalists, all but one the past four years use T5.

Good luck with the project. Once you get going, be sure to start a journal. I am sure many would like to follow along, myself included.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Greggz said:


> This has been an interesting thread.
> 
> Sounds like the makings of a great tank.
> 
> ...



There are a lot of small reasons this is.. but let's just take 2nd place 2018..
Lighting4-48" HO T-5 6500K, 2-48" HO T-5 5000K, 8hrs/day6 56W lights..no special colors..That is pretty easy to emulate w/ LED's but not necessarily w/ canned fixtures..


Only real advantage is cost and slightly more diffuse lighting..


Skill is more important than the light..
and sometimes these become self fulfilling.. t5's won x year so everyone uses them..


anyways for fun:
Stupid censors..
https://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2018/Medium/7360.jpg









https://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2018/show418.html

2018 winner..
Philips 830 2x 2 58 watt TL8 Philips 840 1x 2 58 watt TL8 Philips 865 1x 2 58 watt TL8
Translated .. 
4 @80CRI 4000K
2 @80cri 3000K
[email protected] 6500k

split so really 2:1:1 per fixture 2 fixtures I think
122" x 26" x 20"

just ancillary..
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/6707505-post649.html


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

Like everyone said high tech, needs stable co2. A tank, stand plus co2 regulator +tank, alone can easily break your budget. That's before you even got plants in there. You could always start slow and get your tank,stand, substrate, lights and some easy to grow plants. Before you jump into co2. The cheapest way to go high tech, is to buy once key word is once. If you can, void buying cheaper stuff and then upgrading later. I can help you with some additional (additional because they are only red and blue bars) just send me a PM. Otherwise if your not trying to break the bank on the first go, just go slow and steady and accumulate what you need over time. Goodluck and I hope everything works out for you


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

Greg,

Thanks for the advice and kind words!

It sounds like the consensus is pressurized CO2 is the way to go, so I'll start looking into that to add to my budget.

I actually have BDBS in my current tank, but I just don't love how dirty it gets. Granted, my tank has been essentially unmaintained the past semester, so maybe regular maintenance and a better filter would keep it cleaner. Other than that, I really like it - it looks great, and it's so easy to plant stuff in compared to larger granule sizes. I'll check out the compairson to Aquasoil. 

Any thoughts on the Safe T Sorb substrate? I'm tired of my plants putting off roots into the water column, and I thought a substrate with a higher CEC might help with that. (I also like the look.)

That's interesting about the use of T5HO in the Dutch category! I don't have anything against T5, but I'm just looking for the lower-profile look and better controllability of an LED fixture.

I hadn't even considered doing a build thread; I didn't realize there would be any interest! I'm honestly pretty bad at aquascaping, but I'll definitely make a thread once I start putting stuff together. 

Do you plan out plant placement beforehand, or do you just buy some plants and mess around with them to find a good placement?

(Edit: Just came across your thread on your Rainbowfish tank. I haven't gotten far, but it looks amazing in the first post! You must be proud.)

---------------------------------------------------------------

Jeff,

Interesting links for the LED lighting. The image you linked looks really appealing with the LEDs. It doesn't look at all washed-out like my tank does with the Beamswork. Just to clarify, that winning Dutch tank was on T5s, right? I can't find any LEDs matching those model numbers.

I'm realizing that I'm really searching for a warmer look than most LED fixtures - maybe I need to visit my LFS to look at some fixtures in person (although I think all they have over their FW tanks are Kessils).

---------------------------------------------------------------

KZB,

Thanks for the advice. I'm all about "buy once, cry once," haha. If I just can't budget for a quality (new or used) CO2 setup right away, I'll buy them later or consider upping my budget.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Even "retail" w/ some DIY involved for quality CO2 isn't ridiculous but prob 1/3rd your budget:
https://store.cyberweld.com/smoxre2st30s.html
$203.90
Downgrade to a single stage saves you $100.
https://www.bakersgas.com/SMI30-100-320_ss24809.html
That's new...usually plenty of evil bay regs to get if you go DIY.. 
two stage sub-$200 (total main parts, reg,metering,solenoid) is fairly easy to build..

this and $110 aftermarket add ons get you to $300 plus..
https://www.diyco2regulator.com/co2-regulator-post-body-kits
https://www.diyco2regulator.com/cga-320-nut-nipple 
$101.98 (need a small 12v dc power supply and timer)
and bubble ounter/flowmeter.. tubing. check valve.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

GeorgeTheGuppy said:


> It sounds like the consensus is pressurized CO2 is the way to go, so I'll start looking into that to add to my budget.


Yea, little argument there..in the long run it's usually best.. Short of low tech.





GeorgeTheGuppy said:


> I actually have BDBS in my current tank, but I just don't love how dirty it gets. Granted, my tank has been essentially unmaintained the past semester, so maybe regular maintenance and a better filter would keep it cleaner. Other than that, I really like it - it looks great, and it's so easy to plant stuff in compared to larger granule sizes. I'll check out the compairson to Aquasoil.
> 
> Any thoughts on the Safe T Sorb substrate? I'm tired of my plants putting off roots into the water column, and I thought a substrate with a higher CEC might help with that. (I also like the look.)


Saf-t sorb and "Turface" 

are both fairly coarse..and sort of light. Not sure if CEC controls roots though. Got my personal opinion on CEC's that is prob. not real popular..
Out of the coarser soils I still like non-CEC like Flourite better..




GeorgeTheGuppy said:


> That's interesting about the use of T5HO in the Dutch category! I don't have anything against T5, but I'm just looking for the lower-profile look and better controllability of an LED fixture.
> I hadn't even considered doing a build thread; I didn't realize there would be any interest! I'm honestly pretty bad at aquascaping, but I'll definitely make a thread once I start putting stuff together.
> 
> Jeff,
> ...


Kessils aren't "warmer" (rated 6000-9000k) except maybe the VERY NEWEST one.. forgot the model 

and yes t5's (or related t5hp,8's little difference except wattage oh and dia for 8's )


Main point was they used a lot of wattage and no "fancy' colors.. Simple whites..well the few I checked..
Plenty of LED's that one can "warm" up but the sad part is you end up sacrificing power..and in a sense at full you are still under-powered over the "usual"t5 wattages people run.
Problem w/ some "warming" of LED's is cheap phosphors and low CRI..
And CRI isn't always equal either..The one I posted had "average" CRI of 80..but due to certain advantages of tubes a LED CRI of 80 isn't like an 80CRI of tubes..mostly due to a broad blee spread of tube phosphors and a very weak spread w/ led's..


Not insurmountable obstacles but takes either expensive LED's, company that will customize, or DIY for the most part..
https://sbreeflights.com/sbox-freshwater-plant-lights/34-sbox-pro-32-timer-fresh-water-plant.html
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/329...8.0&pvid=e43b21df-063b-4c49-97b6-6797305e86ec


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

jeffkrol said:


> Even "retail" w/ some DIY involved for quality CO2 isn't ridiculous but prob 1/3rd your budget:
> https://store.cyberweld.com/smoxre2st30s.html
> $203.90
> Downgrade to a single stage saves you $100.
> ...


I've been reading up on CO2 systems, and I read that most single stage regulators are essentially the same: the improvement comes with dual stage regulators, which aren't prone to end of tank dump like the single-stages are.

However, I read the problem can also be avoided by the use of a pH controller, which would shut off CO2 before an EOTD situation turned deadly. Since the difference between single- and dual-stage is about $100, and pH controllers run just over $100, why wouldn't I want to get a single-stage and a pH controller instead of the dual-stage?

I briefly looked into building a two-stage, but I thought it would be out of my league. If it's pretty simple, maybe I'll go that route.

I'm having trouble keeping the parts and costs straight between the DIY and non-DIY routes. Just to clarify - $200 would get me a premade dual-stage (or $100 a single-stage), and I'd have to spend about another $100 on other parts (solenoid and needle valve). However, if I went DIY, I could put the whole thing together for under $200. Either way, I'd have to spend a bit more on a bubble counter, tubing, a check valve, a diffuser, a 12v power supply, and a timer. Is that correct?



jeffkrol said:


> Yea, little argument there..in the long run it's usually best.. Short of low tech.
> 
> Saf-t sorb and "Turface" are both fairly coarse..and sort of light. Not sure if CEC controls roots though. Got my personal opinion on CEC's that is prob. not real popular..
> Out of the coarser soils I still like non-CEC like Flourite better..
> ...


I've read that some theorize CEC can reduce floating roots. It makes sense, but it hasn't been proven. I figure either way, it's probably better to have a substrate that isn't inert.

Isn't 6000K fairly warm? (Ironic and somewhat confusing that a "warm" temperature corresponds to a cooler radiator.) At any rate, I'm hoping I can find a store that runs either the Satellite or the AI Prime FW to see what those are like - I was just mentioning that I thought my LFS only ran Kessils.

For better or for worse, I'm pretty set on LEDs. I used to run old-school PC fluorescents and metal halides (on my reef tanks), but ever since going to the sleek LED fixtures I can't go back.

I'm thinking of doing something DIY with floodlights. I found a 50W 6000K floodlight for $26. I'm thinking I could run a pair of those and a few less-powerful RGB lights (if I could find a cheap DC one) so I could fine-tune colors to my liking. It could be controlled by the TC420 (or something like it), and I think I'd have a nice setup for under $200.

Although at that point, it's tempting to just drop the extra $200 on a pair of Prime's to have something proven and easy.


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## Tyrant46290 (Jul 21, 2018)

I suggest DIY for things you won't see, and splurge on what you will see.

DIY CO2 $15
DIY sump $50 for pump/silicone/hose (you can buy a glass cutter for $7 at home depot or walmart and get free old windows or broken tanks everywhere. Glass is super easy to cut.)

Buy a 40 gallon rimless $300
Buy a wood stand $150
Buy a Fluval aquasky light $100
(Light has every setting and feature you can think of. Even mimics storms. Not the brightest but grows carpets in my tank and is very slim. 40 breeders are plenty shallow and don't require high par to hit the bottom of the tank.)
Buy heater $50
Buy plant substrate $80
This total is $745, round to $750
That gives you $250 for driftwood, rocks, plants.


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

Discusluv said:


> What breeds (species and varient) are these fish? Granted Ive never had livebearer's so can not give any context on those. But, what other freshwater fish can, in the aquarium, fluctuate from 60 degrees at night to 75 in the day?


When I lived in Asia (and I would travel to Sri Lanka, etc) We would be searching for Endlers, Guppies, Mollies, Platies, Tetras, other livebearers. Those fish that lived in brackish or marsh-like habitats... shallow waters (sometimes only a few inches deep) could potentially snow at night but hit 80 during the day (like Japan) and in vietnam when you went through the patty streams the water temps would get up to 80 degrees in the sunny location, but Bettas would get tossed around by the current and in the shaded area the water temp was 69.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

GeorgeTheGuppy said:


> I've been reading up on CO2 systems, and I read that most single stage regulators are essentially the same: the improvement comes with dual stage regulators, which aren't prone to end of tank dump like the single-stages are.
> 
> However, I read the problem can also be avoided by the use of a pH controller, which would shut off CO2 before an EOTD situation turned deadly. Since the difference between single- and dual-stage is about $100, and pH controllers run just over $100, why wouldn't I want to get a single-stage and a pH controller instead of the dual-stage?


Sure it's an option but it's more of a KIS thing for me and probes die/drift ect..





GeorgeTheGuppy said:


> I'm having trouble keeping the parts and costs straight between the DIY and non-DIY routes. Just to clarify - $200 would get me a premade dual-stage (or $100 a single-stage), and I'd have to spend about another $100 on other parts (solenoid and needle valve). However, if I went DIY, I could put the whole thing together for under $200. Either way, I'd have to spend a bit more on a bubble counter, tubing, a check valve, a diffuser, a 12v power supply, and a timer. Is that correct?


Well it's JUST the regulator at the $200/$100 point.


.


GeorgeTheGuppy said:


> Isn't 6000K fairly warm? (Ironic and somewhat confusing that a "warm" temperature corresponds to a cooler radiator.) At any rate, I'm hoping I can find a store that runs either the Satellite or the AI Prime FW to see what those are like - I was just mentioning that I thought my LFS only ran Kessils.



Semantics...warm for reefers..
Fav chart.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Priorities, in order:

Good, reliable, CO2 system
Good, reliable, filtration
Nice tank and stand
Good, reliable, lighting

You do not want to cheap out on any of these, with CO2 being the most important and filtration being a close second. Investing in quality in the beginning will save lots of money and heartache going forward. Filtration and CO2 are the heart and soul of a planted tank. Starting with a solid foundation here will pay dividends that will help the hobby be more enjoyable in the long run. 

Spend the money for a decent tank and stand so you've got something pleasant to look at.

Lighting is last as it's arguably the least important from a financial standpoint. *Having high filtration capacity and the ability to add more CO2 than the light requires will actually make things easier. * Not having enough filtration capacity or the ability to add the CO2 required by the light output will cause problems and lots of unnecessary money spent replacing inadequate parts.


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## Aku Sakana (Jul 27, 2017)

My setup
40b great tank , no brace in middle 
Fluval 3.0 easily grows all plants with one 
Art c02 regulator 
Large grit blasting sand is my favorite substrate because it last forever and it's the easiest to plant . 
Neo diffuser large
Dual plug timer from lowes runs c02 and my eheim skimmer 
Eheim pro 4, replace white pad with course blue pad and get course inlet sponge 

Around $850 and I love this tank 
Led is best ...no way I would go back to t5

Sent from my SM-N910T3 using Tapatalk


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

Tyrant46290 said:


> I suggest DIY for things you won't see, and splurge on what you will see.
> 
> DIY CO2 $15
> DIY sump $50 for pump/silicone/hose (you can buy a glass cutter for $7 at home depot or walmart and get free old windows or broken tanks everywhere. Glass is super easy to cut.)
> ...


Thanks for the advice. With a sump, wouldn't you have to also factor in an overflow, plumbing, a return pump, filter media, etc.?

If I went that route, I probably wouldn't want to DIY a sump. I rent, and my landlord wouldn't want me to have something like that upstairs.

How does the Aquasky compare to the Fluval 3.0?

Any suggestions on a particular wood stand?



jeffkrol said:


> Sure it's an option but it's more of a KIS thing for me and probes die/drift ect..
> 
> Well it's JUST the regulator at the $200/$100 point.
> 
> Semantics...warm for reefers..


Gotcha. How much does pH drift without a controller? 

What's a typical color temp for a planted tank? 



Phil Edwards said:


> Priorities, in order:
> 
> Good, reliable, CO2 system
> Good, reliable, filtration
> ...


Thanks. I'll definitely not skimp on the CO2 system, and I think the 2217 is a quality filtration option.

The more I think about it though, it's just hard to spend $300-$400 on a nicer tank. I don't especially mind the rim on my current tank; I just think tanks without look nice. I'm thinking I'll get the cheap tank for now, and maybe down the road I'll upgrade and use the old one for a cheap, low-tech setup. 

Any suggestions for lighting though? I'm just not sure what is enough.



Aku Sakana said:


> My setup
> 40b great tank , no brace in middle
> Fluval 3.0 easily grows all plants with one
> Art c02 regulator
> ...


Thanks! Is your tank rimless, or is it the PetCo Aqueon like I'm looking at?

The Fluval 3.0 wasn't even on my radar. Looks like it's dimmable and programable, so that would fit the bill! How's the color - does the tank look washed-out at all? And do you ever wish it was brighter? Do carpets stay short and dense in your tank?


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## mboley (Jan 26, 2018)

Off topic post deleted


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## Aku Sakana (Jul 27, 2017)

My 40b is an aqueon, I may have bought a rimless if I could buy one locally but I'm ok with the rim . 
I have a 22l rimless and I like it but I don't need rimless to enjoy my hobby. 
The fluval 3.0 is great for dialing in your perfect setup, from blackwater to a sunny beach. Great light for any plant in tanks up to 24 inches. I have 4 and the one on my 40b is at 60%. 


Sent from my SM-N910T3 using Tapatalk


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

You will hear lots of pros and cons on pH controllers. 

Personally I would not be without one. Getting CO2 right makes everything else easier. 

If I want to bump pH down a bit more, I just tune it down 0.05 at a time. Very easy to hit my sweet spot. 

Without it, there is a lot of messing around with flow rate to achieve the same thing. It's also a fail safe for my fish, which I have a lot invested in as well. 

As mentioned before, I would not skimp on filters/CO2/lighting. You won't be sorry in the long run, and the few dollars you save up front will be long forgotten if you are monkeying around with inferior equipment.

And one more thing. Once you get all the above installed and start dosing ferts, do not underestimate the power of good maintenance and plant husbandry. An uber clean tank is the best defense against algae. Take it seriously and your odds of success will increase exponentially.


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## Aku Sakana (Jul 27, 2017)

Get the large grit black diamond blasting sand. Roots go crazy in the stuff and it want breakdown. The best at holding plants in place and providing just enough space to prevent packing. I couldn't believe the difference in root growth. 

Sent from my SM-N910T3 using Tapatalk


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

Aku Sakana said:


> My 40b is an aqueon, I may have bought a rimless if I could buy one locally but I'm ok with the rim .
> I have a 22l rimless and I like it but I don't need rimless to enjoy my hobby.
> The fluval 3.0 is great for dialing in your perfect setup, from blackwater to a sunny beach. Great light for any plant in tanks up to 24 inches. I have 4 and the one on my 40b is at 60%.
> 
> ...


Wow, I was a little concerned that the 3.0 wouldn't be bright enough, but if you're able to grow a carpet at 60% then I'm strongly tempted! Thanks for the info!



Greggz said:


> You will hear lots of pros and cons on pH controllers.
> 
> Personally I would not be without one. Getting CO2 right makes everything else easier.
> 
> ...


They seem like a good safeguard. With pressurized CO2, I'd be afraid of killing my shrimp since they're so sensitive to it.

Do you recommend a particular controller, and do you think it would be acceptable to run a single stage regulator if a controller were in use?

I appreciate your advice. I'm trying to keep to a reasonable budget, but I certainly don't want to regret limiting myself down the road.

Bump:


Aku Sakana said:


> Get the large grit black diamond blasting sand. Roots go crazy in the stuff and it want breakdown. The best at holding plants in place and providing just enough space to prevent packing. I couldn't believe the difference in root growth.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910T3 using Tapatalk


That's what I have now - I pulled up a tiny crypt the other day, and its roots were about 8" long. Crazy. I might stick with it, but I'm also interested to try a non-inert substrate.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

GeorgeTheGuppy said:


> Do you recommend a particular controller, and do you think it would be acceptable to run a single stage regulator if a controller were in use?
> 
> I appreciate your advice. I'm trying to keep to a reasonable budget, but I certainly don't want to regret limiting myself down the road.


I use an American Pinpoint Marine, but I know many also use one by Milwaukee. I am sure both do what they are designed to do. 

I also use a Dwyer flow meter rather than bubble counter, but that is another long discussion. 

And yes, I use a single stage regulator by GLA. Have never experienced EOTD, but not saying it doesn't happen. If it did, the controller would turn off the solenoid, so no worries.


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

Greggz said:


> Burr740 did an experiment a short time ago comparing BDBS to Aquasoil, and you can read about it in his journal.


I'm really struggling trying to find this post. I've tried searching the thread, skimming the thread, googling... Can't find it for the life of me. I see this experiment on putting Osmocote under BDBS, but I don't see a direct comparison to Aquasoil. Could you point me in the right direction?



Greggz said:


> I use an American Pinpoint Marine, but I know many also use one by Milwaukee. I am sure both do what they are designed to do.
> 
> I also use a Dwyer flow meter rather than bubble counter, but that is another long discussion.
> 
> And yes, I use a single stage controller by GLA. Have never experienced EOTD, but not saying it doesn't happen. If it did, the controller would turn off the solenoid, so no worries.


Thanks for the info! I'll consider a single-stage with a controller.

Is a flow meter better than a bubble counter? I imagine by its nature a bubble counter would be pretty imprecise.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Moral of this story is: hurry up and buy all the things! So you can start a new tank journal.


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

somewhatshocked said:


> Moral of this story is: hurry up and buy all the things! So you can start a new tank journal.


Haha, I wish I could! I don't go back to VA until August, unfortunately.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

GeorgeTheGuppy said:


> I'm really struggling trying to find this post. I've tried searching the thread, skimming the thread, googling... Can't find it for the life of me.


Starts here but goes on for months.................

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1117642-120-gal-dutchy-freestyle-now-35%25-less-water-volume-64.html#post11085191



GeorgeTheGuppy said:


> Is a flow meter better than a bubble counter? I imagine by its nature a bubble counter would be pretty imprecise.


Yes but much depends on the size of the tank. Anything over 55 or so it is pretty much impossible to count bubbles. It's really just a constant stream.

It's been brought up in my journal quite a few times. Here is a link to a discussion about them.....

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1020497-greggz-120g-rainbow-fish-tank-update-5-11-2019-a-66.html#post10821809


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## Vadim Shevchuk (Aug 28, 2009)

[QUOTE What stand did you get?

Wow, that ELOS is crazy expensive.[/QUOTE]

Me set up was like this for a cheap 40B

Dollar per gallon sale 40B
I got this stand at petco/petsmart. I waited for a sale and purchased a gift card to the store from a reseller. I think I was at $100 bucks for the stand. https://www.petco.com/shop/en/petco...ndamentals-5065-gallon-upright-aquarium-stand
Lighting can be your choice.
Substrate: ADA Aquasoil if you want to splurge, or BDBS if you want to go cheap.
CO2: I had it already.
Filter: Eheim 2217 is on Fleabay for 150-160 new shipped. 


I've purchased an Elos tank 3 ft with stand before for 300-400 bucks. Just have to be patient and willing to drive a little.


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

Greggz said:


> Starts here but goes on for months.................
> 
> https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1117642-120-gal-dutchy-freestyle-now-35%25-less-water-volume-64.html#post11085191
> 
> ...


Thanks! Reading through that thread right now.



Vadim Shevchuk said:


> Me set up was like this for a cheap 40B
> 
> Dollar per gallon sale 40B
> I got this stand at petco/petsmart. I waited for a sale and purchased a gift card to the store from a reseller. I think I was at $100 bucks for the stand. https://www.petco.com/shop/en/petco...ndamentals-5065-gallon-upright-aquarium-stand
> ...


I appreciate the info. 

That stand looks a lot nicer than the metal one. I'll keep an eye out for a sale. I'm assuming you like it?


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

I think I'm finally narrowing down the search for a light after doing a lot more research today.

I'm still considering something DIY with floodlights, but I'm leaning toward a premade setup that would be more sure to work well.

The main contenders are the Fluval Fresh and Plant 3.0 ($160, 46W), the Finnex Planted+ 24/7 V2 ($128, 35.8W)(there's also a Planted+24/7 HLC; not sure what the difference is), and the Current USA Satellite Plus Pro ($242, 50W). There's also the Finnex Monster Ray and Vivid+, but it seems like neither of those is meant to be the main light.

It seems like the Planted+ 24/7 gets the most recommendations of the three, but it's quite short of the Satellite and 3.0 in terms of wattage. 

I couldn't find PAR data for the Fluval 3.0, but its prior version was supposed to have similar (if slightly higher) PAR output.




























It looks like the Current USA leads the pack for PAR.
At 12" deep, Fluval reports 112 μMol/m^2/s (I think that's the right unit), Finnex 88, and Current USA 155.
Down at 18", Fluval is 66, Finnex 53, and Current USA 98.

At both depths, the Fluval is about 80% the Finnex, and the Current USA is about 140% the Finnex. Then again, the Current USA costs 150% what the Finnex does. Toss-up between Fluval and Current USA.

All three models can be programmed for a day/night cycle with ramp-up and ramp-down instead of a harsh on/off, although the Fluval has the advantage of being controlled via app instead of with a clunky IR remote.

Because of this and its sleek look, I think I'm leaning toward the Fluval. However, my concern is how low it's mounted. Even on my 20 tall, which is 12" wide, lights can't be mounted too low. On a 40 breeder I'm afraid a low-profile light will leave large dark spots on the front and back top edges. Do you guys have any suggestions? All I can find is this hanging kit for $40.


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## Aku Sakana (Jul 27, 2017)

My fluval is raised about 3" and no dark spots on a 40b 

Sent from my SM-N910T3 using Tapatalk


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Sort of back to semi-DIY..
Fluval does have mounting clips for under cabinet mounting..
https://www.amazon.com/Fluval-Cabinet-LED-Mounting-Kit/dp/B00F3356D0
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32958144450.html

The light to something attachment is usually the messy part.. 

finding a cheap mounting arm to attach them to is a bit of a challenge..
https://www.amazon.com/Current-USA-...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=8PN4P82447ZQX8MV7BSZ


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

Aku Sakana said:


> My fluval is raised about 3" and no dark spots on a 40b
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910T3 using Tapatalk


Thanks @Aku Sakana. How did you raise it? Did you just put risers under its legs?



jeffkrol said:


> Sort of back to semi-DIY..
> Fluval does have mounting clips for under cabinet mounting..
> https://www.amazon.com/Fluval-Cabinet-LED-Mounting-Kit/dp/B00F3356D0
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32958144450.html
> ...


I know, haha. Thanks for the links, I like the idea of having it on an arm. I can't quite tell how those clips work though - would it work to hang the light using them?

If I can figure out a clean way to do it, I'm also thinking of 3D printing some risers to put it on or mounting it on aluminum extrusion (something like this), although 80/20 is kind of expensive.


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## Aku Sakana (Jul 27, 2017)

I used cheap clamps from lowes that I had laying around . 
I made a post about them with pics on the forum

Sent from my SM-N910T3 using Tapatalk


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

GeorgeTheGuppy said:


> T
> I know, haha. Thanks for the links, I like the idea of having it on an arm. I can't quite tell how those clips work though - would it work to hang the light using them?


Since they are under cabinet clips I suspect just a center hole.. do w/ it what you want..Eye bolt and nut ect..
looks to be clearance for a nut. 

Like I said, key is just getting the profile for the light bar right. so one doesn't just hammock the light bar.. if you know what I mean..


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## TheLordOfTheFish (Mar 11, 2017)

Have 2 Current USA Satellite Plus Pro's on my 55 gallon, 18 inches high. Had about 100 par at substrate level in the middle of the tank and now I'm running them at 70%. They should be more than enough for you. Def. get a good CO2 system though.


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

Greggz said:


> Starts here but goes on for months.................
> 
> https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1117642-120-gal-dutchy-freestyle-now-35%25-less-water-volume-64.html#post11085191


If anyone's wondering, the best "nutshell" post in the thread I've found is here (talking about switching from Aquasoil to an inert substrate like BDBS):



burr740 said:


> I'd lay odds that 80% of your plants wont miss a beat. 20% are probably in for a rude awakening. Half of those will adjust and do fine after a month or so. But yeah there's probably a few that arent going to do so well
> 
> Its more than worth it though, the cleanliness and ease of working with. Being able to mercilessly yank up whatever you want whenever you want. Its freaking great. I didnt appreciate how great until doing aquasoil in a couple of tanks. There'll be no more of that I can promise you...lol





TheLordOfTheFish said:


> Have 2 Current USA Satellite Plus Pro's on my 55 gallon, 18 inches high. Had about 100 par at substrate level in the middle of the tank and now I'm running them at 70%. They should be more than enough for you. Def. get a good CO2 system though.


Thanks. I'm not sure if I want to pony up for 2 fixtures... $400 is a big chunk of my budget.


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

I called a local pet store, and they said they carried a 40gal rimless for $170. I wanted to make sure it was the 40 breeder instead of the 40 long, so I asked how wide it was, and she said it was 18" wide (okay, good) by 30" long. Huh? They were closing, so I didn't take the time to clarify, but I'm hoping she just misspoke. I can't find any tank size, standard or otherwise, with a 30"x18" footprint (or even with 30" and 18" dimensions in any direction).

At any rate, that's cheap enough that I'd definitely be able to budget for a rimless tank. Fingers crossed! I'll call them back tomorrow for clarification.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Lifeguard Aquatics Crystal Large – 29.53″ x 17.72″ x 17.72″ ~40 gl.

https://www.lifegardaquatics.com/products/lifegard-crystal-aquariums/

A single AI Prime, mounted high, might just give you what you want.


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

OVT said:


> Lifeguard Aquatics Crystal Large – 29.53″ x 17.72″ x 17.72″ ~40 gl.
> 
> https://www.lifegardaquatics.com/products/lifegard-crystal-aquariums/
> 
> A single AI Prime, mounted high, might just give you what you want.


Thanks, that looks like a nice tank, but at $370 I think it's out of my budget.


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

Just got in touch with the LFS, and it looks like they have some pretty attractive rimless options.

The 40gal is 30" x 18" x 18", but they have a 48 gallon that measures 36" x 18" x 18" - basically a 40 breeder with an additional 2" of height - for $250. Isn't that an ADA size or something?

They also carry a 64 long that measures 48" x 18" x 18" for $320. Now that's really tempting. I think I'm going to start pricing out a build using that to see how much more it would cost me.

I also need to figure out the dosing system I'm going to use. If I decide to do something rich like EI, I don't want to be doing weekly 30gal water changes.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> 50 Glass 36 3/8 18 3/8 19 AGA (Aqueon)


Standard Aquarium Dimensions Chart and Dimensions to Gallons Calculator

Close enough..


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

jeffkrol said:


> Standard Aquarium Dimensions Chart and Dimensions to Gallons Calculator
> 
> Close enough..


Isn't that a rimmed tank? I can only find three Aqueon rimless sizes, the largest of which is a 30 gallon.

All these tank sizes are starting to confuse me. Let me get this straight:

There is a list of standard tank sizes made by a bunch of manufacturers.
Aqueon, formerly known as AGA (All Glass Aquarium; no relation to Aquatic Gardeners Association or Aqua Design Amano), has their own unique tank sizes.
ADA, Aqua Design Amano, also has their own unique tank sizes, some of which are similar to Aqueon sizes.

The LFS's "40 gallon" (30" x 18" x 18") has dimensions similar to ADA's 75-P (29.5" x 17.7" x 17.7").
The LFS's "48 gallon" (36" x 18" x 18") has dimensions that are similar both to Aqueon's framed 50 gallon (36 3/8" x 18 3/8" x 19") and ADA's 90-P (35.4" x 17.7" x 17.7").
The LFS's "64 long" (48" x 18" x 18") has dimensions similar to ADA's 120-P (47.2" x 17.7" x 17.7").

However, ADA tanks are super expensive, so those at the LFS are probably not ADA. Do ADA clones exist? 


Also, any thoughts on the 90-P vs the 120-P? Since I've been stuck with a 20-gallon for about a decade, I've always had the mentality that my next tank would be as big as possible, but I'm reading the 120-P can be a little harder to scape.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Actually thought your local shop had "weird" sizes..

Maybe get them made locally for them????


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

jeffkrol said:


> Actually thought your local shop had "weird" sizes..
> 
> Maybe get them made locally for them????


I did too until I thought to look at ADA sizes.

Is there any significant risk of a seam popping with a cheaper rimless tank?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Not if they know what they are doing....

Bigger worry would be if they used the right thickness of glass for them...
Glass thickness is calculated based on a "risk factor" . If they used a more liberal risk factor to come up w/ thickness necessary ..or any at all is the ???? 

https://www.livingreefs.com/threads/glass-thickness-calculators.21048/
It's complicated.. 
glassthickness.zip


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

ADA (and clones) use the metric system. The model numbers are length in cm - height code.


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## Sordbodan (Oct 25, 2016)

I have the ADA 75p. The ADA dimensions are really chosen with scaping in mind. I’d go for the longest you can afford. Unlike traditional long tanks, these give you the opportunity to do some very interesting scapes because of the added depth and height. I wish I had chosen the 120p. 

As for ADA clones, there are several from China. Fireaqua is one that uses starfire glass like that of ADA. This is a type of glass that eliminates the green hue that starts to become very noticeable as the glass gets thicker - rimless aquariums have to use thicker glass to provide proper ridgidity without the rim. 

Starfire clones like Fireaqua are 1/2 the price of ADA. You can also save further (1/2 again) by going with regular glass. This is what I expect your LFS has - Chinese knockoffs using regular glass. When buying these you have to look at 2 things. The quality of the silicone. More importantly, the thickness of the glass. For a 120p you’d expect 10-12mm glass. 

Finally, due to the thick glass these are extremely heavy tanks. My 75p weighs 65lb. 120p is 100lb I believe - and that is just the empty aquarium. So you have to make sure to get a sturdy stand.


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

jeffkrol said:


> Not if they know what they are doing....
> 
> Bigger worry would be if they used the right thickness of glass for them...
> Glass thickness is calculated based on a "risk factor" . If they used a more liberal risk factor to come up w/ thickness necessary ..or any at all is the ????
> ...


Right. I'll call them back tomorrow to ask the brand (don't know why I didn't do that today) and the glass thickness.



Sordbodan said:


> I have the ADA 75p. The ADA dimensions are really chosen with scaping in mind. I’d go for the longest you can afford. Unlike traditional long tanks, these give you the opportunity to do some very interesting scapes because of the added depth and height. I wish I had chosen the 120p.
> 
> As for ADA clones, there are several from China. Fireaqua is one that uses starfire glass like that of ADA. This is a type of glass that eliminates the green hue that starts to become very noticeable as the glass gets thicker - rimless aquariums have to use thicker glass to provide proper ridgidity without the rim.
> 
> ...


Thanks, that's very helpful! The 10-12mm frame of reference is very useful as well. I'm not super set on having low-iron glass, but rimless is a big plus for me. If I can save some money by going with regular glass that's fine by me.

Any way for me to assess the quality of silicone they used?

I did have weight in mind, although I was thinking more from a perspective of getting it up the stairs than strength of the stand.


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

They weren't able to give me the glass thickness, but the tank is the Seapora 64 Long (you might have to scroll down a bit to actually see the tank). I'll compare the picture to other similar-size tanks to see if I can guess the glass thickness. It's priced at $640 online, so I'm assuming it's a decent tank. Is it common for tanks to be priced so much lower at a local store?

Their specs page mentions a warranty, but I can't tell exactly what the warranty entails.

I can't verify it, but the second post on this thread says Seapora tanks are made by Deep Blue. Other comments say that Seapora tanks are well-built.

Edit: This is weird. I measured the Seapora tank on my screen to be 115.5mm long, and the side glass measured 1mm thick. I found a picture of an ADA 120-P on Google images, and it measured... 115.5mm and 1mm, respectively. They're different pictures on different sites, so I guess it's just a freak coincidence that they are exactly the same size on-screen. Weird. Anyway, ADA tanks are supposed to have 12mm glass, so that's what the Seapora tank should have if my measurements were right. 

Blowing up the pics yields on-screen measurements of 210.5mm and 2mm for the Seapora, and 210.0mm and 2mm for the ADA. That translates to a difference of a fraction of a mm in glass thickness: well within the margin of error. It's looking like this tank is a pretty good buy!

Here's the Seapora:









And the ADA:


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Just a note - both Deep Blue Professional and Seapora rebrand the same OEM tanks. Kinda like Finnex just slaps a sticker on most the products pulled in from Chinese equipment manufacturers. 

Seapora also appears to source decent rimless tanks from the same manufacturers that have produced some of the nicer tanks that companies like Aquatop have sold through the years. I have a bunch of them from several different sellers.

I bet if you email Seapora, they'll give you thickness measurements.


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## EdWiser (Jul 14, 2015)

Seapora and deep blue are not even close to the quality of an ADA tank. [emoji1787]


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

somewhatshocked said:


> Just a note - both Deep Blue Professional and Seapora rebrand the same OEM tanks. Kinda like Finnex just slaps a sticker on most the products pulled in from Chinese equipment manufacturers.
> 
> Seapora also appears to source decent rimless tanks from the same manufacturers that have produced some of the nicer tanks that companies like Aquatop have sold through the years. I have a bunch of them from several different sellers.
> 
> I bet if you email Seapora, they'll give you thickness measurements.


Thanks. I wasn't able to find an email for them - do you know what it is?



EdWiser said:


> Seapora and deep blue are not even close to the quality of an ADA tank. [emoji1787]


Nor the price :wink2:


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## Sordbodan (Oct 25, 2016)

The Seapora tank you linked to is a low iron one. By the way $600+ is too expensive -approaching to, but not quite there, ADA pricing. I’d expect it to be in the $400+ range - see http://www.reefsolution.com/catalog....html?osCsid=49050a4d6e5822d26e5e8f1d37483914

I cannot imagine your lfs selling a low iron tank for $170. The only explanation I have is that it is a regular glass copy they are calling Seapora. Or maybe Seapora makes standard glass rimless tanks as well. If you can verify that it is indeed a Seapora Crystal tank, get it. Frankly I’d be tempted at that price. 🙂.


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## GeorgeTheGuppy (Jun 5, 2019)

Sordbodan said:


> The Seapora tank you linked to is a low iron one. By the way $600+ is too expensive -approaching to, but not quite there, ADA pricing. I’d expect it to be in the $400+ range - see http://www.reefsolution.com/catalog....html?osCsid=49050a4d6e5822d26e5e8f1d37483914
> 
> I cannot imagine your lfs selling a low iron tank for $170. The only explanation I have is that it is a regular glass copy they are calling Seapora. Or maybe Seapora makes standard glass rimless tanks as well. If you can verify that it is indeed a Seapora Crystal tank, get it. Frankly I’d be tempted at that price. 🙂.


I'd be surprised if they mislabelled it (although no way to tell without looking at it myself), but $320 does seem rather cheap. I can't find any other Seapora 64 Long other than the one with low-iron glass, so hopefully it's really a Seapora tank!

Low iron would be nice, but I'm not as set on that as I am rimless (or is low-iron a must on rimless tanks because of their increased thickness?).

Unless I find a compelling reason not to, I'm going to plan to buy that tank. (Just have to get back out to VA first!)


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