# carbonated water for CO2??



## andrewq (May 22, 2013)

Check this out:

Takashi Amano wrote:

"I decided to make a real effort to raise water plants and design beautiful waterscapes in 1977. At that time there were no power filters and such devices like there are today, and figuring out my first set-up was difficult. I placed about 7cm of fine coral sand on the bottom and intensely aerated the water with a bottom filter. I thought that putting fishes in would cause problems, si I limited myself to plants. For lighting the 60cm tank I used two 20watt bulbs: in a week they were transparent. There were no books to help me out. All I could do was grope on in the dark. Next I realized that while I could raise plants fairly successfully in old aquaria, the newer ones were just no good. While pondering the reason for this, I figured out that it wasn't just air but CO2 that they needed, so I asked my mentor, Professor Nagashima of Niigata Seiryo Women's Junior College, about methods for carbonation of aquarium water. He told me that 0,03% CO2 in the air should be enough, and that it was naturally absorbed into the water so that I didn't have to add it artificially. But he introduced me to a friend in the medical equipament field anyway, who discussed possible carbonation methods with me and gave me a cost estimate. It's too bad it couldn't have been done more inexpensively or I would have successfully set up an aquatic plant aquariom much sooner. Carbon dioxide was something I never needed in my work and it was too expensive a material for me, anyway. Dry ice was economical, but it was too hard to handle and disappeared too quickly to be practical. Frustrated, I went on struggling and tried to forget about CO2. The aquatic plant aquarium work inched along to the point where the plants weren't dying as much but they wouldn't form new buds. Then one night I went to a bar with a friend and a clear bottle of carbonated water caught my eye. The label said, "water, carbon dioxide, sodium chloride (NaCl) 1%." I wasn't sure about the NaCl but it was the perfect material for testing whether the plants needed CO2. I took five bottles home with me. The tank for the experiment was big: 240x60x60cm. Flushed with drink and excitement, I poured the five bottles in. Within five minutes air bubbles had formed on the leaves: they did need the CO2. Every tank I added the soda water to did well, but I had to be careful not to add too much because of the 1% NaCl, and so I changed the water faithfully every week. There were piles of empty soda water bottles all over my room. If I hadn't discovered that carbonated water when I did, I surely would have given up on the whole idea of aquatic plant aquaria


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## s3rca (Feb 17, 2013)

That was a great read . I'm sure using carbonated water isn't very cost effective but it gave an excellent look in to Amanos first steps in to this hobby.


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## andrewq (May 22, 2013)

Yeah, if he says its good then it must be


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## 0live (Jun 8, 2013)

Wow, that's really interesting!


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## AnotherHobby (Mar 5, 2012)

Carbonated beverages are about 400ppm CO2 I think. I'd figure that out for sure though. So if you were to try this you'd want to calculate out how much to add to hit a reasonable ppm target that won't gas your fish. Remember, Amano said he didn't have fish in there, so high CO2 was a non issue. 

Also, algae can thrive on CO2 fluctuation, and this would be the definition of fluctuating and inconsistent CO2. I wouldn't try it.


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## chocological (Nov 13, 2012)

It seems to me it would be a waste.. that's a lot of CO2, and I imagine without it being constantly injected, it would dissolve rather quickly. We target around 30ppm. 400ppm would gas any fish in there, lol.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

maybe try small amount and add it everyday and see what happen.


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## andrewq (May 22, 2013)

Im curious to see this idea in action. Let me know how it goes if you do try it.


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## mistahoo (Apr 25, 2012)

Very interesting read! Thank you andrew for posting that. I think it would make for a great alternative to bottled CO2 (Seachem Excel, etc.). You would probably have to put a drop checker in there to monitor the CO2 levels so you can act accordingly to keep it as stable as possible. Maybe run an auto dosing rig (like the rigs you see with auto fert dosing or for saltwater gear) with a huge bottle of carbonated water? It shouldn't be too hard to make and would definitely cost less than a CO2 Regulator build. The carbonated water would run you more than a CO2 setup in the long run though.

I may actually try the auto dosing with a planted tank with fish and shrimp just to do it. Would be something fun to diy. If all goes well, I'll post up a step-by-step of the rig and the outcome.


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## chocological (Nov 13, 2012)

I can see it now.. pour a little in the tank, take a sip, pour a little more, another sip...


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## andrewq (May 22, 2013)

lol, i wonder if the plants bubble up quickly.


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## mistahoo (Apr 25, 2012)

andrewq said:


> lol, i wonder if the plants bubble up quickly.


I would think so. The carbonated water has a high concentration of CO2 that's already dissolved.


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## sugarcube (Jun 28, 2013)

Okay so maybe I should give it a shot then. o_o

If I dosed at the exact same time everyday, it probably wouldn't be too bad. 
I think I'll use maybe like 50ml everyday?

I'll cut of excel starting tomorrow. Than I replace it with carbonated water and see what happens. Hopefully I don't suffocate my betta. 

who knows, maybe it will be just as good as a yeast co2 system.


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## aparker (Mar 12, 2013)

The betta should be fine because of its lung shouldnt it?


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## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

You will not get good results, the glut for example stays in your water column and slowly is consumed or degrades until the next dose. A yeast reactor constantly adds CO2 at a set rate keeping concentration mostly constant. Carbonated water will give you a quick peak of CO2 then quickly gas off giving you wild fluctuations unless you are constantly sitting around adding more. This fluctuation will cause more trouble than it is worth. Never mind the expense and time needed to dose this way. There is a reason it was a dead end in the evolution of high tech planted tanks, it does not work well and is impractical.


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

Well once you open the bottle, it will degass itself too. Everytime you open the bottle, a good amount goes out, unless its cold. I know this because I was drinking some fayo bottled fizzy drink. On the 3rd day, gas was very little. Well offcourse everyone knows about it. 

In the end though, I think excel would be a better alternative. Doesn't hurt to experiment though.


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## sugarcube (Jun 28, 2013)

I was just looking to play around with the idea and see if anything good happens. Its probably not worth pursuing for a expensive big tank. But its summer vac and I'm bored. lol 

If it doesn't work, I'll go back to my excel.

What if I used it like an IV drip? Would that work?


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## 0live (Jun 8, 2013)

sugarcube said:


> What if I used it like an IV drip? Would that work?


My thought exactly. A cap with a hole drilled in the top, a mechanism to hold the bottle upside down (like a bs hatchery) and a airline with a knob to control the flow.

It sounds interesting, again probably no replacement for the currently popular methods of providing CO2, but could be interesting to test out. You know... For SCIENCE!


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## sugarcube (Jun 28, 2013)

0live said:


> My thought exactly. A cap with a hole drilled in the top, a mechanism to hold the bottle upside down (like a bs hatchery) and a airline with a knob to control the flow.
> 
> It sounds interesting, again probably no replacement for the currently popular methods of providing CO2, but could be interesting to test out. You know... For SCIENCE!


My moms a nurse so maybe I can just ask to get me a set of IV lines. lol

I can drip maybe like 500ml a day? Maybe that would be too much?


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Use a collapsable IV bag. Then, if any CO2 leaves the bottled water while it is still in the bag it might get re-absorbed. If not, you will have a very clear idea of what you are losing, and probably when to toss that and add a fresh bottle. The 'air' in the bag is only from the CO2 in the bottled water. 

So, lets say you get pretty good production and distribution through the day, and it slacks off at night (bottled water has out gased, leaving the CO2 in the IV bag). Ignore it until the next morning, when you refill the bag with a new bottle of carbonated water. The timing would be good: Some CO2 has accumulated overnight from the remnants in the IV bag, so there is some when the lights come on. Then you add new, and the plants get a really good supply for several hours. As the day wears on the bottled water gives out, and this follows the natural ups (AM) and downs (PM) of CO2 in a lake or pond. Then the slow build up that won't get too high through the night.


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## ThatGuyWithTheFish (Apr 29, 2012)

Excel is a good alternative carbon source.


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## psalm18.2 (Oct 16, 2010)

I think you should run an experiment. Place 2 plants in different containers. Dose on w/ bottled CO2 water and the other with none. Heck, add a 3rd for only excel. Do for at least a month. Tell us the results.

Then you won't be bored.


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## VJM (Feb 9, 2013)

And maybe experiment on a tank with no living things in it? Please?

It would be hilarious if the IV worked.


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## sugarcube (Jun 28, 2013)

Sounds like fun! I'll do an experiment then. I'll go buy the supplies tomorrow...

I'll have three 1/2 gallon containers, one will just be conditioned tap water, one will have daily excel supplement and than the other will have carbonated drip. I'll use a 40watt desk top lamp for light. No live animals of course.

What plant should I use? I have hornwort, java moss, cabomba, guppy grass, dwarf hygro, wisteria, creeping jenny, pygmy chain swords, potamogeton gayi and ludwigia repens.


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## Maechael (Sep 9, 2012)

Why not just use an airstone setup Like with DIY yeast setups in bottles?
Only replacing the bottles of Yeast sugar, with Carbonated water Bottles.

That seems much simpler, and easier to setup.
Not to mention it would provide much more regular Co2 dosing.

Let me know if that would suffice?


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## sugarcube (Jun 28, 2013)

Maechael said:


> Why not just use an airstone setup Like with DIY yeast setups in bottles?
> Only replacing the bottles of Yeast sugar, with Carbonated water Bottles.
> 
> That seems much simpler, and easier to setup.
> ...


like using the evaporating CO2?


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## 0live (Jun 8, 2013)

If you have enough of the plants to split amongst the three set them up so they each have the same amount of plants of each variety.

You also want to make sure that if you are using stems you don't stack the odds in favor of one container over the other by having a rooted stem in one plant and a trimming in the other.

Log this, take photos and start a thread just for it! I'm super excited for experiments!

ETA: Do you have test kits? Getting pH/KH values twice daily would be interesting.


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## sugarcube (Jun 28, 2013)

0live said:


> If you have enough of the plants to split amongst the three set them up so they each have the same amount of plants of each variety.
> 
> You also want to make sure that if you are using stems you don't stack the odds in favor of one container over the other by having a rooted stem in one plant and a trimming in the other.
> 
> ...


I'll try to as many species I can. I might have to do trims alone as the plants I have are all one way or other rooted so I will have to dig them up if I wanted the whole plant.

I'll start other thread once I get my setups finished.:icon_mrgr

I don't have kH but I do have pH!


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## Joe_G_Davis (Jul 8, 2013)

please do keep us updated on how this works!


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## Joe_G_Davis (Jul 8, 2013)

Maechael said:


> Why not just use an airstone setup Like with DIY yeast setups in bottles?
> Only replacing the bottles of Yeast sugar, with Carbonated water Bottles.
> 
> That seems much simpler, and easier to setup.
> ...


I think that the without being pressurized carbonated water actually loses its co2 pretty quickly. At least that has been my experience with soda.


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## Maechael (Sep 9, 2012)

Joe_G_Davis said:


> I think that the without being pressurized carbonated water actually loses its co2 pretty quickly. At least that has been my experience with soda.




Right, but if you open and close open and close it will lose pressure every time, as opposed to sealing it with an air line cap, just like in other DIY Co2 systems, it would retain a seal, and should provide enough pressure to power a small airstone for a few days, maybe even weeks.

It's the exact same principle as a yeast sugar reaction bottle, minus the messy science haha.

I would see no reason why that method shouldn't work, while other DIY methods do, if they work on the same principles.


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## 0live (Jun 8, 2013)

Joe_G_Davis said:


> I think that the without being pressurized carbonated water actually loses its co2 pretty quickly. At least that has been my experience with soda.


Last week I picked up a 2 month old bottle of tonic water that had been sitting on our bar since a friend came over and used half of it for a gin and tonic. Assuming it was flat, I opened it up to empty the contents down the drain. When I opened it, it definitely released pressure and as I dumped it down the drain it was obvious that the contents were still carbonated. 

I don't know how will this anecdote will carry over to carbonated water, but my guess is that the quinine in tonic water isn't going to add much in the way of CO2 absorption capabilities.


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## sugarcube (Jun 28, 2013)

Okay, I started the journal for the CO2 experiment, its here! Hopefully I get some good results !


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## 0live (Jun 8, 2013)

Awesome! SCIENCE!


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## psalm18.2 (Oct 16, 2010)

Yahhh!! I love science.


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