# BGA Major Problem. Tom please help



## Iggy (Jan 10, 2005)

Adding KNO3 will not kill BGA, but it may stop it returning. 

You need to kill the BGA first by either doing a 3 day blackout, or dosing Maracyn. Do a search on this forum for *blackout * and *Maracyn* and you should find plenty of info on killing BGA. You must then continue to add the KNO3 to prevent reinfection. 

Good luck!


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Get some Maracyn, most any pet store will have it. Note: not Maracyn II
It will kill the BGA within a couple/few days, then clean everything, filter, hoses, intake, spraybar etc. then keep N03 level 5ppm or more and it will not return....


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

If you're not pressed on time and if the stores are too expensive, you can always order in bulk a lot cheaper from BigAls or even Erythromyacin tabs from Dr. Fosters and Smith...then sell the rest off or lend someone else a hand with your leftovers. It won't take much to zap it.


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## putty (Nov 19, 2003)

I just did a half dose of Maracin for a persistent BGA infestation. Even with siphoning it all off 3 times a week, I could eventually not keep up with it. The intersting thing is that my pH is 6.6, CO2 is quite high, and my Nitrates are at around 10-15 ppm. 

The antibiotic wiped out all the BGA in a matter of days. I took personal satisfaction in watching green/brown sheets of algae slough off as fish swam through it.

I hope I can keep it away now that its gone, high Nitrates and CO2 should help do that.

Good Luck.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Pretty much what other folk's stated, although they seem to be all pill poppers

I like blackouts because it tells me if I corrected the environmental parameters quicker and it's free/anyone can turn the lights off and cover a tank.

Either way will work.

The other thing might be if the tank is old, has not been cleaned(Gravel, canister filter etc), or the plants are often overgrown on the surface of the tank etc.

Reinfection can occur with that as well. Reinfection will occur if things have not been corrected in about a month with EM, or about 2-5 days without a blackout.

I've used EM extensively in the past and delibrately reduced the NO3 to see if it encouraged BGA after a EM treatment, it sure does induces BGA.

Most folks simply do what works, but understanding WHY it works allows more treatment options, often better ones, as well as the long term solution.

Pills alone do not.

Regards, 
Tom Barr 




Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## putty (Nov 19, 2003)

I was going to do the blackout, but had some people coming over for dinner, they wanted to see the tank instead of a buch of garbage bags, lol, so I did the EM thing. I also did correct the issue that caused the outbreak in the first place - low nitrates due to lack of dosing - someone was too busy playing World of Warcraft for a while.


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## Ryzilla (Oct 29, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> I like blackouts because it tells me if I corrected the environmental parameters quicker and it's free/anyone can turn the lights off and cover a tank.


I just did a black out about a month ago for 3 days to fight BGA. It was almost all gone after 3 days. I thought I would be ok after that but I was wrong. About 2 weeks later I had a 3x4" carpet of it back. Then I did a 5 day and there is no sign of it coming back. If I were to do it again I would go the 5 day blackout route. My HC, HM, and dwarf hairgrass survived the 5 day blackout.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

putty said:


> I was going to do the blackout, but had some people coming over for dinner, they wanted to see the tank instead of a buch of garbage bags, lol, so I did the EM thing. I also did correct the issue that caused the outbreak in the first place - low nitrates due to lack of dosing - someone was too busy playing World of Warcraft for a while.


Hey, no issue here I'd probably do the same thing myself. 
Except the W of W part

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Ryzilla said:


> I just did a black out about a month ago for 3 days to fight BGA. It was almost all gone after 3 days. I thought I would be ok after that but I was wrong. About 2 weeks later I had a 3x4" carpet of it back. Then I did a 5 day and there is no sign of it coming back. If I were to do it again I would go the 5 day blackout route. My HC, HM, and dwarf hairgrass survived the 5 day blackout.


There are some issues with blackouts, make sure they are 100% dark!!
Do not simply turn the lights off, BGA can hang on quite well.

The other thing , the Gloss will turn very leggy if you do a balckout treatment.

FYI: many enlighten countries prohibit non prescription antibiotics with good reason, bacterial resistence is a huge issue. I'd much rather have antibiotics for my health, than to allow a farmer to get more chickens per month and have a few cents less poultry cost.

We are doing everything to cause these very effective anti bacterial agents to become ineffective.

This does not apply to our hobby much, but to the health and the world in general, it definitely does. It's not just antibiotics either, it's every pesticide made, herbicide resistence in weeds, insect resistence, fungal resistence, rodent resistence, you name the pest, you can find resistence selection.
Indiscriment use adds much more chance that resistence will occur. 

This selection is classic Evolution, so if someone claims evolution takes too long to see or test, ask them why bacteria have recently become resistant to antibiotics as well as every other major life form group. Only takes few years for pest to gain the upper hand. Same with AIDS. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Ryzilla (Oct 29, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> There are some issues with blackouts, make sure they are 100% dark!!
> Do not simply turn the lights off, BGA can hang on quite well.
> 
> The other thing , the Gloss will turn very leggy if you do a balckout treatment.


I put a towel over my 2.5g and it was completely blacked out. I did loose a slight amount of glosso that was heavely caked with BGA and was on the cusp of death. I did notice the pieces that were on the cusp and survived came back thinner and grew slightly higher and more narrow.


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## mrbelvedere (Nov 15, 2005)

Maracyn is the way to go. BGA is a distant memory.


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

plantbrain said:


> FYI: many enlighten countries prohibit non prescription antibiotics with good reason, bacterial resistence is a huge issue. I'd much rather have antibiotics for my health, than to allow a farmer to get more chickens per month and have a few cents less poultry cost.


Good point. About half of the world's antibiotic use, by mass, is used in animal feeds. Not because the livestock have active infection, but because they grow faster. Such inappropriate use has been linked to increased prevalence of such superbugs as vancomycin resistant enterococcus (VRE).


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## Foundas (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi guys,

thank you for your replies and advice on this. I followed Tom's suggestion and did the blackout trick. I cleaned all the BGA from gravel and plants, cleaned the filter and hoses and covered the tank with many bath towels. No light can come in now. 

I also cleaned all my equipment and accessories with chlorine and hopefully this will be the last time for BGA to thrieve in my tank. It's not just the cleaning part. It stinks too!!! 


Again, many thanks to all 


Foundas


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Well, give it a good 3 days, clean and water change 50% before and after, add KNO3 before and thereafter also.

A tank needs a good cleaning if you had algae anyway.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

Is it true Egeria densa releases a natural antibiotic that kills cyanobacteria (BGA)?


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## Cruise Control (Dec 16, 2004)

Hey Foundas, just wanted to chip in that I fought BGA awhile back. I checked TPT for info (as always) and I followed Tom's method to the T and it worked great. Keep that N03 up! That's the key that Tom keeps reiterating and it works.

Besides the fact that it's free, I can't get Maracyn here anyway.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Raul-7 said:


> Is it true Egeria densa releases a natural antibiotic that kills cyanobacteria (BGA)?


Gee, we have millions of tons of E. densa in the delta and plenty of Cyanobacteria, as well as other bacteria, you figure it out

Those antiobiotic properties are most often ground up plant juice added to algal cultures. Hardly applicable to a live plant in planted tanks. 

You can add all sorts of things that might retard algae and not hurt a plant at certain levels. Does not mean it's particularly useful under field conditions. 

To date, there has been no document evidence of any compounds that inhibit algae or other plants(allelopathic chemicals) in a field test/natural environment in aquatic systems. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

jart said:


> Good point. About half of the world's antibiotic use, by mass, is used in animal feeds. Not because the livestock have active infection, but because they grow faster. Such inappropriate use has been linked to increased prevalence of such superbugs as vancomycin resistant enterococcus (VRE).


My sister is a living example of antibiotic resistance...she thinks she's not a hypocondriac, but for some reason she is ALWAYS sick and going to the doctor. For over 2-3 years doctors kept prescribing round after round of antibiotic...next thing...she realizes she's now lactose intolerant...it had virtually wiped out her gut flora...can't eat cereal, ice cream, and of course chocolate...not even the lactose intolerant-pills (lactaid) work for her. Shoot, she can't even eat yogurt with lacobacillus in it. She's quite devastated. Sorry to digress.


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## putty (Nov 19, 2003)

plantbrain said:


> Hey, no issue here I'd probably do the same thing myself.
> Except the W of W part
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Smart man! WoW is more addictive than plant tanks.

Thanks for all the input Tom.


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## esarkipato (Jul 19, 2005)

putty said:


> Smart man! WoW is more addictive than plant tanks.


I found my BGA habit easier to kick than my WoW habit . . . but I got em both!


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## putty (Nov 19, 2003)

My BGA habit was directly caused by my WoW habit. LOL.


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> This selection is classic Evolution, so if someone claims evolution takes too long to see or test, ask them why bacteria have recently become resistant to antibiotics as well as every other major life form group. Only takes few years for pest to gain the upper hand. Same with AIDS.


Sounds to me like plain old natural selection rather than full-blown evolution. Chances are that a subset of any population as massive as bacteria are going to be resistant to antibiotics. They survive, and pass along the trait. No new genetic information is being created.


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## putty (Nov 19, 2003)

banderbe said:


> Sounds to me like plain old natural selection rather than full-blown evolution. Chances are that a subset of any population as massive as bacteria are going to be resistant to antibiotics. They survive, and pass along the trait. No new genetic information is being created.


True, but percentage compositions of genes are changing, and some define this as evolution. 

Evolution occurs via natural selection. 

The mutation for antibiotic resistance must have occured at some time in the past to even allow the above to occur.


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

Increasing bacterial resistance is clearly linked to antibiotic use. Numerous studies suggest that this is so. Resistance to a given antibiotic may occur randomly, and given the rate at which some bacteria multiply, can be expected. But antibiotic overuse/ misuse, be it in humans or in livestock, creates an enormous selective pressure allowing the resistant bacteria an overwhelming advantage. This phenomenom is actually reversible, to some extent; through education regarding proper antibiotic prescribing, the resistance rates of selected bacteria in a given population can actually decrease, given time. But as soon as antibiotic use becomes more lax, the resistance rates may rise again.

I would need to check the exact definition of the word "evolution" but this process appears to be evolution, in a sense, on an accelerated scale.

Now, back to pruning:icon_roll , have a good evening, all.


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## sanj (Jan 11, 2004)

jart said:


> Increasing bacterial resistance is clearly linked to antibiotic use. Numerous studies suggest that this is so. Resistance to a given antibiotic may occur randomly, and given the rate at which some bacteria multiply, can be expected. But antibiotic overuse/ misuse, be it in humans or in livestock, creates an enormous selective pressure allowing the resistant bacteria an overwhelming advantage. This phenomenom is actually reversible, to some extent; through education regarding proper antibiotic prescribing, the resistance rates of selected bacteria in a given population can actually decrease, given time. But as soon as antibiotic use becomes more lax, the resistance rates may rise again.
> 
> I would need to check the exact definition of the word "evolution" but this process appears to be evolution, in a sense, on an accelerated scale.
> 
> Now, back to pruning:icon_roll , have a good evening, all.



I would say it is variation not evolution.


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## sanj (Jan 11, 2004)

putty said:


> My BGA habit was directly caused by my WoW habit. LOL.


Lol I had that problem also.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

sanj said:


> I would say it is variation not evolution.


Evolution is the variation, the mechanism to which evolution occurs. That's how the process works. 

1.Natural selection (or "artificial" in our case since we amplify things selectively) is a differential success in reproduction, so some survive and reproduce, some don't. Same with pest and our crop/livestock selection. No conflict there.

2.Interactions between the environment(herbicides etc) and the variability inherent among the individuals making up a population.
Same with pesticides, no conflict.

3. The product of natural selection is the adaptation of populations of organisms to their environment. Pest have done this well. No conflict on the mechansim of evolution. 

Smells like evolution, taste like it, sure seems like it to me. 

We accelerate that process greatly by using chemicals, we gain an advanage for a short peroid of time, so the things we can do to minimize this process, judicous usage of the chemicals is wise as well as careful consideration to processes that minimize the loss of the traits we want to preserve.

We also use transgenic crops (Rice with resistence to Roundup etc), insects(Fruit flies) etc to fight pest, but the crop transgenic crop plants can hybridize with the weeds, such is the case with Rice and Red rice, same species but red rice is not desirable and can cause large losses in crop production. So how do you kill that and prevent hybriziation? Same species of plant. 

Buffer zones and planting times to prevent such hybridization, but all it takes is a few Red rice crops to get that one gene and they will be resistent to the new herbicide. Fruit fies used are sterile, so they effective cause any fruit flly they mate with to be sterile, this is how they fight infestations in CA. 

Even so, the transgenic ehancement is still subjected to resistence over time, many weeds are resistance to these. And you can bet that these do pass their genes to the next generation. If you do not survive and breed, you cannot pass the genes on. So only those genes that do survive make it. 

We are playing with and accelerating natural selection by selective breeding of crops over a few thousand years, pet breeding(They were bred for fancy rather than utility) etc and we also use transgenic methods as well now. Increaseed variation in desireable traits is greatly enhanced by selective breeding(sex), that is why sex is a great evolutionary advancement. 

Ethics is a big issue with this for many, but do not fool yourself, we have been selecting for certain traits desirable to us for 1000's of years, domesticated dogs, cattle, chickens, most things, just today they can really play around with transgentic genes. 

I call them gene jockys

The likelyhood of a BGA resistant popping up is very remote in our specific case. Much higher in animal/crop production due to the widespread use.

Everything is a risk, but how much versus the benefits is quite another matter. Personally I say the EM presents a low risk with BGA treatment, but is very dumb for animal livestock production. 

Read the main tenents of Evolution (Campbell is a decent source for the basics). Think about it. Think about how it might apply to things like resistence to pesticides, Doggies, transgenic crops, etc

Then start a new thread:thumbsup: 



regards, 
Tom Barr


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## sanj (Jan 11, 2004)

Hello,

Yes I know in theory evolution is the product of multiple variations, but we(as in humanity) have only witnessed variation and know it is a fact. That is why i would say variation via whatever means be it artificially induced or natural selection. However evolution however probable remains a theory. I am not sure that various bacterial strains are actually new species, but just genetic variants.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Depressing, but my medical buddy says our species is "due for a correction". You can figure out the meaning. ZPG will be a big issue in 100 years, IMO. What that has to do with BGA, well, they're both acronyms.:icon_roll bob


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

sanj said:


> Hello,
> 
> Yes I know in theory evolution is the product of multiple variations, but we(as in humanity) have only witnessed variation and know it is a fact. That is why i would say variation via whatever means be it artificially induced or natural selection. However evolution however probable remains a theory. I am not sure that various bacterial strains are actually new species, but just genetic variants.


Okay, why do you have an appendix then?
We don't need one but our ancestors did and lost the use of it later.
You have a vestigal organ as a product of evolution in you(unless you had it removed for medical reasons). 

No it's not the product of just multiple variations, although that applies also, it just needs one or more that are that significant and inheritable.

Well try approaching from the reverse direction then. How can evolution occur without those variations then?

If there is *no variation*, then the organism has *no capacity to evolve over time*.

As far as new species, that will occur at some point depending on one's view as to what consitutes a "new species"(a very debatable topic in it's self), but that does not imply the mechansims of evolution do not occur nor that what we see in pesticide use is not evolution. 

Small changes lead to large changes.
Pretty simple straight forward idea.

Then you support it with DNA evidence out the Yzoo with the past records of previous ancestral organisms, fossile record, ontogenical development, vestigal organs(why would a whale have hip bones hanging out there 2ft from the any other bones?). Your Appendix? Why would you have the same organ that helps process herbivore diets like Chimps and Gorillas?

Why are you even making the point that Evolution is "just a theory" anyway?

*Gravity is JUST a theory *also. No one has even found nor detected a gravitron, or gravity wave. 

Science has a far more rigorous definition for a "theory" than common venacluar.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## putty (Nov 19, 2003)

Did you guys know that the fossil record was created by the devil to confuse scientists? I only found this out the other day, when some nice people showed up at my doorstep. Little did they know, that my Evolution textbook was very nearby...man did I have some fun. Don't think they are coming back either.LOL


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

putty said:


> Did you guys know that the fossil record was created by the devil to confuse scientists? I only found this out the other day, when some nice people showed up at my doorstep. Little did they know, that my Evolution textbook was very nearby...man did I have some fun. Don't think they are coming back either.LOL


Ignorance breeds extremism, myth, fear and hate.
Does not matter what religious group or faith you believe in or if you have no belief therein at all.

This is also true within the planted hobby.
Many assumed excess PO4 caused everyone's algae problems about 10 years ago. Many assumed the same for Fe, NO3, CO2 above 15ppm will kill your fish.....ad nauseum......
Some still claim these things, parroting what someone else told them, never trying it themselves and looking into it further. Often times I look back and think I overlooked something and decide to try it again but a different way. 

Many assumed that high NO3/PO4 caused Blue Green algae, there are several sites that claim a ratio can cure algae. Again, nothing I've ever done has show that observation and I've repeated so many times and well, I use high NO3/PO4 and CO2 to grow the plants very well, any and every plant.

I can show that is not these things causing the algae, but when I tell folks to drive their NO3 to zero and leave it there and see how long it takes for BGA to appear, suddenly lots of people report similar things. Then for the long tern cure, adding KNO3 routinely keeps the BGA at bay over the long term. 

This also works well for Marine BGA's, Red slime.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## otter (Oct 22, 2005)

Wow... I bet you didn't think you were starting a theological discussion Foundas!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Yes, it's Plant Religion 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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