# Staghorn/BBA algae!! PLZ HELP!!



## DillZPickleZ (Nov 3, 2013)

Hello, im new to the forum and this looked like a great place to get some advice.

I've had a fish tank now for almost a year and finally upgraded in October to a 20 Gallon long. Its been running for about 2 months and im now having insanely annoying algae issues. I have no clue what types they are so please help me identify. Pretty sure it is Staghorn (thread) algae. Here r some pics.





































No clue what is on that bushy plant (dont know names yet lol, call it christmas tree) but it looks gross and the algae is getting on the heater now. 

Also the algae became very bad after i received 5 pygmy corys and 5 red cherry shrimp. I've had these creatures 1 week to go along with my 3 amanos, 3 unknown green shrimp and other 2 cherry shrimps. One of the smaller corys died yesterday and 3-4 shrimp have died. Usually after molting. no clue y, the rest look fine. I have a slight hydra problem as well due to my crappy LFS and my lack of bleach dipping. Huge snail problem too. 

Sorry for all the info but i just need to know how to stop this algae WITHOUT using excel which i'm pretty sure killed my shrimp due to a slight OD.

SPECS:

Aqueon 20 Long

Odyssea 24" T5 fixture with 2x 24w Geisemann Aquaflora and 2x 24w Geisemann Midday 6000k -- On from 1:30pm till 10pm

Fluval 88g CO2 kit -- on about 2-3 bps from around 4pm till 10pm

Aqueon Quietflow HOB 20 and Aqueon Quietflow HOB 10

Fluval Stratum (around 2.5")

Some Seriyu Stone and Manazania wood from LFS

Ammonia: 0
NitrAte: 10-20 ppm
ph: 7-7.2

DOSE:
Flourish Iron, Flourish Potassium, and Flourish Nitrogen every 2 days

PLANTS (all that i know): Java Moss, S. Repens, Alternanthara Reineckii, Dwarf Hairgrass, Glosso?, Anubias, Ludwigia (not sure), and a bushy christmas tree plant. The Dwarf Hair, Anubis arn't doing too hot. The Reineckii, S. Repens, and Java are doing well. The xmas plant and the glosso are on crack but now being taken by algae

NOTE:
For christmas i am receiving an Eheim 250 (2217 i believe), inline co2, co2 regulator, and inline heater. This will make sure that i have the co2 on the entire time i have my lights on. Also the co2 will be more consistent.

I've been debating just restarting the whole damn tank but that would cost me around $50-100 and was wondering if i could get some guidance or help to fix this situation and save my plants..

Sorry for the long post


----------



## Ras (Nov 7, 2013)

tlc startsmart worked for me, and never brokedown later (so far)
worked instantly and you can even add it while fish are in the tank w.o having any negative effects. Ive never heard of any problems with it so far, from anyone.
some other brands like microbelift nite out 11 can seriously stress fish if you add it while they are in the tank 
not only did microbelift not work, it nearly killed a golden ram of mine. the only reason I could think of is because it was made for salt AND freshwater, that or there was an extremely high concentration of ammonia in the bottle 
but I was told when I started this hobby and Ill never forget it "whenever something is made for both salt and freshwater you gotta ask how that is possible and if it is truly safe. just because something isn't fatal doesn't mean it is safe, I wish more aquarium related companies would realize that " 

anyways, it probably was the nitrite killing the fish and what not. either do partial water changes everyday(this sucks so bad, I had to do this for a month straight) till it dilutes or you start seeing nitrATES rather than nitrITES. OR get some bacteria or a pre-seeded sponge from an already cycled filter , OR re-home the fish because they will probably die due to toxicity ...to be honest I am wondering how anything is surviving with such high nitrites
are you sure the test was accurate? I was always told 1.5 - 2 ppm of nitrite is lethal 
just like ammonia, nitrites should read 0 before adding fish 

now if you typoed nitrITE but meant nitrAte then that'd make sense. 10 -20 ppm of nitrate is completely fine. just nothing over 35-40. at least not for a long period of time 


as for the plants that is something someone else will have to reply to, I am still learning how to balance a planted tank myself.


----------



## DillZPickleZ (Nov 3, 2013)

*Woops*

Typed nitrITE, meant nitrATE. I wouldn't be asking on a forum if that was the case. I've recycled tanks several times over the last year and am well aware of the cycle. 

Ill check on the light forum if that is too much tho.

Thanks for the advice, little unsure if i want to put any chemicals other than h202 in my tank cause i heard that wasn't smart.

As for the pictures, how the hell do i get them on here lol


----------



## xNiNELiVES (Oct 28, 2013)

Here are the pics. You should quote this post and find the text I used to input these images. Again you have to link the URL of the actual images, meaning it has to have .jpg at the end of the URL...

_Edited Pictures out because of redundancy._


----------



## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

You might check the Kh in there and I'll bet it's below a 3.
But back to the original, if you will take out the two middle bulbs you will eliminate this problem.
That which is on the "bush" is found only under intense light conditions. Were it not for the CO2 you have
it would be filling up the whole tank except for right in front of the filter discharge.


----------



## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Why are you not adding phosphate?


----------



## DillZPickleZ (Nov 3, 2013)

k ill remove the middle 2 bulbs. And i cant find any flourish phosphate at my LFS. The only one i know that holds it is 50 mins away. Any guesses on the other algae?


----------



## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Go to walmart and buy some Fleet enema and add one teaspoon.


----------



## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

The other one is why I suggested you check the Kh. If under a 3 it can cause issues. I have a picture of a very similar 
condition on my plants but it's not the same one cause it only affects older parts of plants and not rocks etc. no even driftwood.
Strange that it affects older parts of plants but not dead wood.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=14289&pictureid=47033


----------



## DillZPickleZ (Nov 3, 2013)

well ill grab some kh test kits in a few days, what is optimal range and how do i acheive it?


----------



## Wolf19 (Jan 24, 2013)

Your photoperiod is currently 8.5 hours. As a first step I would do a blackout period for 48 hours to kill any algae before a restart. The primary causes of algae are often (1) too much light or (2) poor co2 management. 

I would reduce your photoperiod to 5 hours, and check the kH as mentioned to better understand and manage your co2. When you know the kH you can adjust your co2 injection to aim for ~30ppm. 

As for fertilizers can you get access to dry fertilizers?


----------



## DillZPickleZ (Nov 3, 2013)

Im a little too scared to do a blackout because ive heard it can hurt ur plants. Im willing to try, but i need to do more research first.

I believe the problem is due to inconsistent co2 levels which should be fixed when my large co2 tank arrives from amazon with my regulator.

Ive removed one bulb, and will remove a second next week. Ill reduce to 5 hours as well. 

Ill grab a test kit tommorrow and post the results to see what y'alls think.

Not sure where to find dry ferts, Ace Hardware maybe?


----------



## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

http://www.theplantguy.org/
Really just go on the fert section and ask for links to a source of dry ferts.
But I would read a few post on there before I bought any to see what it's all about and don'rt worry if your in a foreign 
country on the terms. They come the more you read.
Mostly the liquid ferts are watered down versions of and usually only one type of a fert or perhaps two kinds.
They make you pay for separate bottles of each kind to make you spend and spend. You can get the dry completely
separate if you like or get "packages" if you like. But what you have in the liquid form is lacking at least three other
components which they have. And those are very important ones that you often hear about being missing when
people talk about symptoms of deficiencies. I don't think you want the all out war type cause you likely don't
want to trim every week. But you would like the same ingredients on a lower dose level perhaps.
I'll give you one link but don't run out and order till you understand it better. Ask a few questions here after you
have read some on "ferts"section.
What you are looking for on here is the Micro/Macro mix+Plantex...but once again I've heard that there is a better
substitute for the Plantex part and that the Macro/Micro mix comes with that on another site which I don't
have a link to. It's Green..something like greenleaf but the rest I don't know.
http://aquariumfertilizer.com/index.asp?Option1=cats&Edit=2&EditU=1&Regit=2


----------



## DillZPickleZ (Nov 3, 2013)

k ill check them out. so far seems a little more complicated and i feel like ill screw something up. thanks for the advice, im gonna research for a few days and figure it out then.

Cheers


----------



## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Some may see it as more some as less complicated. The learning part to me is what is complicated. But when you compare it
to what I was doing, you may think the extra work of learning it is worth it. Reason being...there is no one liquid fert which
gives you all the ingredients you get in the dry. 
I was dosing daily 1 ml of Excel and then each week after the water change, I would dose 5ml of Leaf Zone and 5ml of Tetra
Pride. My plants were full of holes and growing funny. No wonder. They were only getting whatever they get from Potash and
getting a dose of O as it was listed and I think that's Oxygen from the Leaf Zone and then getting iron from the Tetra Pride. The Leaf Zone gave them some Potassium but where are the other fert ingredients ? No wonder they had holes in them.
Read this list of ingredients for Flourish Comprehensive.
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Flourish.html
Since I had this already I'm using it for the Micro ferts. If you read the ingredients for the Macro on the link I gave you
then you will see what I was still missing(collectively they are called the Macros). So I bought individual amounts of
each that I thought I would need to make that, but in smaller quantities than they sell.
There is a person who makes packages of the dry ferts that would last 6/10 month depending on tank size. He is on here.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=506393
No you don't need all of it. Just about 4 things from the first list and one other item, but this is if you want to mix them
your self. But go all the way to the part marked EI Liquid ferts. That is a simple way to get everything in one "kit".
And remember that the doses that are talked about are full strength for full growth rate so if you don't want to trim each
week, you can cut those doses and it will last even longer.


----------



## ced281 (Jul 6, 2012)

Here are my thoughts. I've gone through this several times before so I can at least speak from personal experience.

*For starters:*
1) Manually remove as much algae as you can. It will be a huge pain, but you need to get as much out of the tank as you can.
2) As a previous poster recommended, do a 48 hour blackout. Go buy black plastic garbage bags, completely wrap up the tank. Do not unintentionally let a single ray of light into the tank. 48 hours should not do anything to your plants. If they die, then that means they were already starved to begin with and there's very little you could have done to save them regardless.
3) Peek inside your tank after 6 to 8 hours to see how your fish are doing. The main precaution is that your nitrite levels don't spike when the algae start dying off. (Which is why you have to manually remove as much algae as you can).

This should get rid of 90% of your thread algae that you got all over the tank. It probably wont' do much to the staghorn that you have growing on your plants.

*Next*
Use H202 to kill the staghorn. Get a syringe and use no more than 1mL of H202 per gallon of water. Be prepared to have some shrimp die in the process. If you're really worried, you can half the amount and use 1mL per 2gal of water, but that will make it markedly less effective. Prior to dosing with H202, turn off your filters and water flow. After ~15 minutes turn them back on. The staghorn will turn purple if your treatment has been effective. See below for long term solutions and likely explanations for why you even have a staghorn outbreak to begin with.

*Long-term solutions*
From what I could read in your post, there are a number of imbalances you need to fix.

*Firstly:*
Your photoperiod doesn't seem right to me. 8.5 hrs of light but only 6 hrs of CO2? You're basically giving your algae 2.5 hours of free growth everyday with that kind of cycle. Sync them together perfectly. Monitor your fish and shrimp to make sure they're not being overdosed with CO2. The one pitfall I'd watch out for is to make sure that they aren't already suffocating in the middle of the night. Plants drain O2 from the water when lights are off, so be mindful of that.

*Secondly:*
Staghorn algae arises because of an ammonia spike. Your ammonia levels might be 0 right now, but a few hours after you feed your fish, they are probably spiking to dangerously high levels. A spike in ammonia is most likely accompanied by a spike in nitrites. Even if the nitrites aren't around for prolonged periods of time, the spike is enough to stress and kill your shrimp. How are you feeding habits? What are you feeding them? In either case, you are feeding too much at a time and too infrequently. It's better to feed the same amount over 3 sessions than the entire amount in 1 session.

*Thirdly:*
Re-evaluate your CO2 amount. 2-3bps might be too much. Either use a dropchecker or visually inspect your fish to see how their doing. Labored breathing or hovering near the surface is never a good sign. For the shrimp, look out for shrimp frantically scurrying around the tank. You will typically see males doing that since they are chasing the pheromones of females, but if you see females doing that you should consider water quality issues.

*Lastly:*
Slow down your fertilization. Every 2 day fertilization might be contributing to the algae bloom. If there's excess nutrients in the water that the plants can't take in, the algae certainly will. It's hard to tell from your tank, but it doesn't look like a every 2 day fertilization is justified. I think once every 3-4days should be sufficient. Also, I would recommend against dosing phosphates/phosphorous. From my experience, dosing P has almost always caused an algae bloom in my tanks. I have 6 hi-tech tanks with pressurized CO2 and high light and rarely have problems with algae. I never dose with P, but religiously dose with Fe, Micro, N, and K every 3 days.

Hope this helps. PM me with any questions.


----------



## DillZPickleZ (Nov 3, 2013)

K

1. The co2 is now synced with lights due to new regulator

2. Will feed less now

3. Fish seem fine with co2, occasionally a cory will fly up to the top but ive heard that is normal for them

4. i have heard to slow ferts, so i will.

Ill try the blackout but i am definitely wary of it. Ive tried h202 and it seems to do nothing to this thread/stag and it kills my poor cherrys. Does turning off the filter really affect cause i never do?


----------



## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

If you are wary of it you can skip the blackout because if you remove two bulbs(I don't think you can take out just one) and limit the hrs
that the light is on to 6 or 5 hrs the algae will go away by it's self. That on the "bush". The thread on the top of this section has descriptions
and remedies for the Staghorn algae including using Amano shrimp that eat it. That thread gives you links to the info.


----------



## ced281 (Jul 6, 2012)

DillZPickleZ said:


> K
> 
> 2. Will feed less now


When you feed less, make sure you're not underfeeding the fish now. XD I think your main problem was feeding too much at a single time. If you feel like your fish aren't getting enough food, just space out the feedings more regularly. I am making up arbitrary units for this, but having a steady 2units of ammonia per hour for 10 hours is better for the nitrogen cycle in your tank than 20 units of ammonia in 1 hour (e.g. steady rate vs. ammonia spike). In the former, your nitrifying bacteria will actually get a better chance to adapt and grow larger colonies. The in latter, the bacteria will have trouble keeping up and lead to issues with staghorn and other water quality issues.

Also, what kind of food are you using? 



DillZPickleZ said:


> Ill try the blackout but i am definitely wary of it. Ive tried h202 and it seems to do nothing to this thread/stag and it kills my poor cherrys. Does turning off the filter really affect cause i never do?


You need to manually remove as much of it as you can before you do so. More algae = more H202 needed. Turning off the filter will help for spot treatments, since the local concentration of H202 around the treatment spots will be higher (since the H202 has less time to mix around with the surrounding water). Once you turn on the filter, the H202 will mix around with the tank water and oxidize anything you might have missed.

Sadly, your RCS are going to suffer from this =(. Have you tried isolating the RCS so that you can treat your tank?

There is also another method that I've heard that combines both Excel & H202 dosing to effectively "nuke" the algae in a tank. I've managed to get it to work, but unfortunately had many RCS losses.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=203684

For convenience, 1tbsp = 14.7ml, so my ratio of 1mL per gallon is actually very, very conservative.

The author also notes recommends that flow be left on while treating. This is because his intention is for a *whole tank treatment*. He has a different goal in mind so he uses a different technique. Feel free to use whatever method you prefer. If you feel like the whole tank is overrun, then do the whole tank method. If you feel like there are only certain parts of the tank that need special treatment, go with the spot treatment then turn on the flow to get some of the benefits of a whole tank treatment.

Spot treatments with Excel on the staghorn usually work very well. Not sure why your Excel treatment didn't work. Did you leave the filter on when you were administering it? Did you just do a whole tank bath of it instead of spot treatments with a syringe?

If you are very concerned with keeping your fish and shrimp healthy, you might want to consider redoing the tank.


----------



## DillZPickleZ (Nov 3, 2013)

Honestly that is what i'm gonna do. Thought about it for the last few days. Got alot of advice and it seems as tho i've f***** this tank up to the point where blowing $100 on new substrate and plants seems like less stress than fixing everything i've done wrong. The main reason for redoing the tank is the army of hydra growing on the substrate that has killed several of my baby RCS from my old tank.

I appreciate all the help and hopefully my new tank will not suck so much. Only gonna use 2 lights, feed correctly, less dosing, consistent co2 and shorter photo period because that seems to be what all y'alls said. 

Thank you Raymond especially for all the time you took to help me out.

Cheers


----------



## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

With two bulbs on a 20L tank(each manufacturer does it differently but I think the two in the middle are on one circuit 
and the two outside bulbs are on the other ballast circuit actually) that have some space between them as opposed to
the normal close together type, you have a med light level which is still borderline/w no CO2 for getting algae. But since
you do CO2 you will like the results/w two bulbs. Later if you want, after you've gotten some growth going you CAN raise
it back to 4 bulbs IF you keep the photo period down to about 7 hrs and use those EI ferts. But then your talking daily
maintenance of the tank so that's on you to decide then.


----------



## DillZPickleZ (Nov 3, 2013)

Yea that's prob what ill do. Only heard good things about this EI dosing so i'm gonna give that a shot. The ballasts work so that the each side has a separate ballast so im putting both lights in the middle 2 slots atm. Prob will do 3 bulbs at the most, this algae started when i began using this 4 bulb system instead of 2.

Fine with daily maintenance (might be difficult once baseball season starts tho XD)


----------



## AlyeskaGirl (Oct 6, 2011)

BBA and Staghorn are usually from low or unstable CO2 levels. Algae is letting you know you have an imbalance.

I was scratching my head after when your lights came on at 1:30 but CO2 was on later. It should come on 1 hour before lights on so it is available to plants when lights come on. And off 1 hour before lights off.

Usually a 1 full degree pH drop is 30 ppm CO2.


----------



## ced281 (Jul 6, 2012)

AlyeskaGirl said:


> BBA and Staghorn are usually from low or unstable CO2 levels. Algae is letting you know you have an imbalance


While CO2 imbalance/instability can contribute to BBA and staghorn, ammonia spikes and dirty substrate/water conditions do also. I think it takes one or a combination of these to cause a staghorn outbreak.

BBA, I've heard a lot of different reasons for, but haven't found one that I've satisfactorily been able to isolate and show in my tanks. For some reason though, it seems to grow best in high flow areas on my tanks.



AlyeskaGirl said:


> I was scratching my head after when your lights came on at 1:30 but CO2 was on later. It should come on 1 hour before lights on so it is available to plants when lights come on. And off 1 hour before lights off.


The one caveat to this is to make sure and check the fish aren't already suffocating before the lights come on. I think I mentioned this earlier, but plants suck up a ton of O2 during the night (especially in heavily planted tanks) which can stress your fish. If you suddenly crank up the CO2 while the lights are off and O2 levels are naturally depressed in the tank, you could end up with fish gumbo...




AlyeskaGirl said:


> Usually a 1 full degree pH drop is 30 ppm CO2.


Not true if you're using buffered substrate like ADA aquasoil brands, etc. I think it's also not true if you have extremely high KH/GH.


----------

