# Need 10-gallon advice...



## jread (Jan 2, 2004)

Hello everyone!

After doing reef tanks for the past few years, I've decided to try something different. I used to shy away from freshwater aquariums because they generally aren't as beautiful as the marine tanks. Well, I changed my mind after seeing a few of Takashi Amano's tanks as well as ones done by other people. They're prettier than the reef tanks in my opinion!

Anyway, I'm a newbie at all of this but I have been researching as much as I can. Let me give you my setup, what I'm wanting to do, then I'd like to hear some of your suggestions:

*Tank:* 10-gallon

*Substrate:* Red Sea Flora Base

*Lighting:* Fixture holds two bulbs, 1 Coralife 10,000k Daylight and 1 Coralife 50/50

*Filtration:* Penguin Bio-Wheel 125

Tank has been setup for one day and I need to get to cycling it.

What I'm wanting to do is start out simply. I'd like to decorate with some local rocks and maybe a nice piece of driftwood, as well as keep a nice population of plants. I'm only looking at having the easier, beginner plants for now. If I get more into the hobby, then maybe I'll consider the tougher stuff. Right now I don't have the money to spend on fancy CO2 systems, etc. What are some good beginner plants to use in the background, as well as something that forms a nice "carpet" or "turf". I love the look of the tanks with a bed of grass covering the bottom. As far as inhabitants, I think I'll try it with guppies. They're beautiful, hardy, easy to breed and raise, and very peaceful. I might keep a little army of grass shrimp with them to clean algae, on top of the fact that I just really like them  I also need to put some other kind of algae-eater in there to keep things under control.

So, do you think I can pull this off with this setup? What kind of plants do you recommend?

Thanks in advance for your help!


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## hypsophrys (Nov 16, 2003)

Cool, welcome to this dark side. 8) 

The 50/50 bulb should be replaced with another 10kK. Actinic is rumoured to be useless for plants and good for algae. I believe it's used for the symbiotic algae in coral? Also, what type (normal flo, compact flo, etc...) and wattage are those bulbs?

I'm having decent luck with low-light, low-tech in my 6g Eclipse (so far). It only has 8 watts of light! :shock: I added DIY CO2 for the heck of it, but think I wouldn't have needed it *IF* I'd removed the biowheel from my filter. That's the thing: your penguin biowheel will probably allow too much CO2 to escape. You might consider a different filter (one with less gas-exchange/surface agitation).

The above all depends on your lighting. 26w (2x13w CF) or 30w (2x15w NO) over a 10g would probably be considered low to moderate light, and you'd be ok w/out CO2. 36w (CF) and above might push you into mandatory CO2 territory...

I'm growing Crypts very well, and plan to try some Sagittaria. Anubias, Java Fern and Java Moss will also do well in a low light setup. I don't think you'll be able to pull off a carpet-effect without high lighting and CO2, but you might be able to do a Dwarf Sag "lawn."

Ian

PS: CF = Compact Flourescent, NO = Normal Output Flourescent.


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## hypsophrys (Nov 16, 2003)

Ok, just followed the links on your bulbs...

2x15w = 30w = ~3wpg. In a small tank I think that's considered moderate light (anyone?). You'd be making it easier on yourself to plan a DIY CO2 setup. It is cheap and not overly difficult. Here's a great tutorial:
http://www.qsl.net/w2wdx/aquaria/diyco2.html

Ian


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## wellbiz (Aug 6, 2003)

hypsophrys said:


> 2x15w = 30w = ~3wpg. In a small tank I think that's considered moderate light (anyone?).


I agree....


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## hypsophrys (Nov 16, 2003)

Wow, this is my 100th post. Woohoo!

:roll:


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## jread (Jan 2, 2004)

hypsophrys said:


> Wow, this is my 100th post. Woohoo!
> 
> :roll:


Thank for your help!

I can remove the bio-wheel on the penguin and then it's just a regular power filter... just like an Aquaclear, etc. I guess I will do that. The bio-wheel is noisy and annoying anyway :evil:

Thanks for the link on the CO2 setup. I will follow your advice and go ahead and do that. Maybe I can afford one of those nice JBJ ones someday 

I will also look into replacing the 50/50 light. Maybe I can trade it to a friend of mine who has a marine aquarium (that's what mine was on before I setup this new tank).

More questions:

- How long should I wait to put plants in? I know fish need to be in a cycled tank to be healthy, but I have not heard whether or not it matters for plants. Can I put in plants immediately or do I need to wait? My tank is about 30 hours old by the way.

- Do you think the substrate I'm using will work?


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

The more plants you have the faster she will cycle


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## hypsophrys (Nov 16, 2003)

You can put your plants in right away. That's the best part.

I think your substrate will work. I've never seen it around here, but it looks similiar to Flourite. I wonder if it's got a lot of available Iron? The buffering at 6.5-7.0 is interesting. You won't really need that capability once you start adding CO2 (your pH will go down), but it's good to know.

By the way, what is your tap water's pH and KH?

Ian


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## jread (Jan 2, 2004)

hypsophrys said:


> You can put your plants in right away. That's the best part.
> 
> I think your substrate will work. I've never seen it around here, but it looks similiar to Flourite. I wonder if it's got a lot of available Iron? The buffering at 6.5-7.0 is interesting. You won't really need that capability once you start adding CO2 (your pH will go down), but it's good to know.
> 
> ...


That's GREAT to hear that I can add the plants! I'm going shopping after work 

The substrate I have supposedly has lots of iron according to the guy at the LFS.

I've always used R/O water for my tanks. I've got R/O water in my freshwater tank right now.... is that bad? I'm not sure about the specs of our tap water. I'll give you the link and maybe you can figure it out: http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/water/index.htm


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## hypsophrys (Nov 16, 2003)

Yikes, glad you mentioned that.

Unlike with reef tanks, where salt-mixes contain all your trace elements and buffers, we tend to rely on tap water for these things. Depending on the species you want to keep (i.e. Discus), you might mix RO/DI with tap water (to soften & lower pH). However, there probably isn't a good reason (unless your tap water is toxic - which it isn't) to use 100% RO. If you did that, you'd need to add alkaline buffers (increase KH) in order to have any pH stability. RO has KH/GH of 0, and would allow for massive pH swings. Add CO2 to that mix, and you're headed for disaster.

Use your tap water, but be sure to treat with a good dechlorinator that removes chloramines (which are added to your tap).

Ian


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## jread (Jan 2, 2004)

hypsophrys said:


> Yikes, glad you mentioned that.
> 
> Unlike with reef tanks, where salt-mixes contain all your trace elements and buffers, we tend to rely on tap water for these things. Depending on the species you want to keep (i.e. Discus), you might mix RO/DI with tap water (to soften & lower pH). However, there probably isn't a good reason (unless your tap water is toxic - which it isn't) to use 100% RO. If you did that, you'd need to add alkaline buffers (increase KH) in order to have any pH stability. RO has KH/GH of 0, and would allow for massive pH swings. Add CO2 to that mix, and you're headed for disaster.
> 
> ...


Dang.... guess I need to drain the whole thing when I get home and use nothing but tap water. 

Thanks again for all your help! It is most-appreciated!


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## hypsophrys (Nov 16, 2003)

No worries. Keep us posted.

If you have the time, upload some pics of your progress to the Photo Album section.

Ian


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## jread (Jan 2, 2004)

hypsophrys said:


> No worries. Keep us posted.
> 
> If you have the time, upload some pics of your progress to the Photo Album section.
> 
> Ian


Well, I just started it up yesterday. I changed out the water to tap water when I got home, then went and got a piece of driftwood, a pygmy sag. and I forgot the name of the other one.. lol.

Here's a very poor-quality photo I took with my webcam:


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Nice start, now go get some more plants, you have a lot of filling in to do.


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## hypsophrys (Nov 16, 2003)

Yep, good start, but definitely get a bunch more plants. What types are you considering?

Ian


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## jread (Jan 2, 2004)

Just got a java fern 

Dunno what all plants I'm doing quite yet. I saw some "baby tears" at the pet store today and I LOVED it! One of their tanks had a nice carpet of it. I also may get a chance at a 3 gallon CO2 bottle for about $30. Just need a regulator and I can get that going, too.

I guess since I've got 3 watts per gallon, I'll have to stay with plants with moderate requirements until I can afford to upgrade to more intense light.

I LOVE Cvarcher's 15 gallon tank in the photo gallery! I'd love to have one like that.


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## hypsophrys (Nov 16, 2003)

Maybe someone else can offer some advice on Baby Tears (Lindernia rotundifolia)? I'm thinking that you may get more vertical growth (vs. "carpeting") with your lighting, but I am not sure... ?

Definitely go over to the Equipment section of the forum and ask for recommendations on a regulator, if you go that route. I think there's an all-in-one unit that Rex Grigg recommends...

Have fun.

Ian


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

guppies? they're great fish alright but especially in a heavily planted tank where there's lots of places for fry to hide you may be up to your eyeballs in no time... since i haaaaaate to cull the little critters, that's the reason i don't keep 'em anymore :wink:


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## jread (Jan 2, 2004)

Quick question:

- I'm not sure if the dwarf sag. is happy being planted in the gravel. I was looking at it and it seems like the more exposed sections are doing better. Is it one of those that needs to be tied to driftwood to do well?


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## hypsophrys (Nov 16, 2003)

It's definitely a substrate plant...

Here's a good link: http://www.tropica.com/default.asp (look for Sagittaria subulata)

Did you observe this at the pet store? Was there an undergravel filter?

Ian



Edit: added link.


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

maybe someone with sag experience can chime in here... but i recall vals (similar in appearance to sags) will do very poorly if their crowns are buried in the substrate...in fact i had some vals die a while back until i learned this.


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## jread (Jan 2, 2004)

hypsophrys said:


> It's definitely a substrate plant...
> 
> Here's a good link: http://www.tropica.com/default.asp (look for Sagittaria subulata)
> 
> ...


At the pet store it was just free-floating in the tank. It is starting to pale a little, though... well, some parts of it are, other parts are nice and green.


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## hypsophrys (Nov 16, 2003)

Maybe just pick out a couple of the nicer plants, and see how they do in your substrate... However, it sounds like your LFS isn't doing a great job with these plants, so, if you decide to plant a large area with them, you might consider buying from an online source.

http://www.azgardens.com has them @ $3.90 for 10. They have a $35 minimum order though...

Ian


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## jread (Jan 2, 2004)

hypsophrys said:


> Maybe just pick out a couple of the nicer plants, and see how they do in your substrate... However, it sounds like your LFS isn't doing a great job with these plants, so, if you decide to plant a large area with them, you might consider buying from an online source.
> 
> http://www.azgardens.com has them @ $3.90 for 10. They have a $35 minimum order though...
> 
> Ian


I've been thinking of getting plants online later down the road. I don't have the lighting needed for the really cool ones that I want (crystalwort), but the "beginner plants" seem pretty available for the most part. I've been to multiple LFS's througout the city and looked at their plants.... some are nice and some aren't. It's hard to find a nice freshwater variety here, though. It seems that marine tanks are more popular in the Austin area... we even have two of them that are dedicated strictly to marine aquariums. It's hard to find much as far as freshwater outside of the normal guppies/swords/ciclids around here. I've only found one store that has a very wide selection of freshwater plants and fish, but they don't have any of the neat inverts. I will most probably have to order those online somewhere.

Ian, I'd like to thank you again for keeping up with my thread and helping out. Would also like to thank everyone else who has contributed!


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## hypsophrys (Nov 16, 2003)

No worries, man, just planting vicariously. 

(I'm on a self-imposed spending freeze -- serious withdrawal.)


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## Taboo (Jan 5, 2004)

wow nice.. the lights look VERY bright. haha. And i dunno if its the perspective but your 10 gallon tank looks pretty big!. haha


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## jread (Jan 2, 2004)

Taboo said:


> wow nice.. the lights look VERY bright. haha. And i dunno if its the perspective but your 10 gallon tank looks pretty big!. haha


Thanks 

I only have 30 watts of lighting:

- Two 15 watt Coralife Daylight 10,000k bulbs

Hope to have better lighting in the future. I'm at 3 watts per gallon at the moment, but it's only a 10 gallon so that's really not THAT much.


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## jread (Jan 2, 2004)

Well, the tank's been running awhile and I have some new questions:

- Bought a bottle of Flourish Excel to use until I can afford a nice CO2 system. I decided against a DIY system since you can't really regulate it and I don't wanna overdose my tank. Does the Flourish work ok?

- I currently am adding no fertilizers. I have no idea what kind I should get, what's good, etc. Can anyone help me out with this?

- When I _do_ get a CO2 tank (probably getting a 5lb one), I'm going to need the regulator and all to get it going. What all do I need for this? I've seen the ones with the electronic PH controllers and they look very nice, but all that stuff is so expensive. Any recommendations for good brands/prices?


Thanks


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Pressurized system for a 10 gal tank? Yeah!!! :mrgreen:

Excel works better than nothing, but I think DIY CO2 would be still the better choice. Unless your kH is really really low, it is not too hard to control the amount of CO2, depending on the bottle size, kind of reactor, and surface agitation.

If you want to go all the way automated, check out Marcs specials http://aquatic-store.com/en-us/dept_249.html


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## jread (Jan 2, 2004)

Wasserpest said:


> Pressurized system for a 10 gal tank? Yeah!!! :mrgreen:


Yes 

The way I see it, whenever I upgrade to a larger tank I'll already have a CO2 system.


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## CptanPanic (Jan 13, 2004)

Personally I think the Flourish Excel is better than DIY CO2 especially for a 10gallon . You can buy years worth of Carbon for $5.


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## Ray1214 (Aug 6, 2003)

One thing that was mentioned at the beginning. Actinics are kinda being found to be useless even in reef setups. Most reefers use actinics purely for asthetic reasons and give a semblence of day and night cycles (dawn, dusk, etc). I even have a pair on my planted tanks but only because I feel that adding two more 33 10K bulbs would probably start to run into overheating my planted tank.

Ray


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## TexasState (Jan 10, 2004)

I've got a new 10G, glass top, and 36Watts JBJ PC Hood and Hagen CO2 kit (bought for $20 in Houston.) I can't decide whether to turn it into a planted tank, or rose anemone/clowns reef tank.


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## UtBalla106 (Feb 24, 2004)

i need some kinda capet moss or grass to put on the bottom of my 10 gal. planted tank i like the way it looks and can you give me some kind that is widely availible and fairly easy to take care of THANK YOU
-John


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## UtBalla106 (Feb 24, 2004)

AND INEXPENSIVE!


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## Aquaman (Dec 16, 2003)

Go with the Hagen/DIY Co2, I have one on a 20 gal tall w/65 watts NO, and the growth is amazing. Cost was like $18 online.


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## Daemonfly (Oct 1, 2003)

UtBalla106 said:


> i need some kinda capet moss or grass to put on the bottom of my 10 gal. planted tank i like the way it looks and can you give me some kind that is widely availible and fairly easy to take care of THANK YOU
> -John


Dwarf hairgrass might work for you.


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