# Root Tabs and Liquid Fert



## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

Personally, I have mostly low tech tanks (only one high tech). My growth is attributed to a few things:
Water column, ferts, light. Considering most of my tanks are Nano, low-medium light with low bioloads- I need to be very diligent with controlling my ferts. I find root tabs unpredictable.... If for some reason I realize I need to cut down on ferts- then your stuck digging things up trying to find the root tabs! (did it once.... with a fluval edge- so I ended up hurting my fish trying to dig through a 4 in hole in the lid!).
So I prefer to dose the water column.

However, with your situation of just using flourish is obsolete these days as its missing some important nutrients. Therefore I would ask you to *check out Thrive C... its more complete and its 1 squirt per 5 gallons*. It does contain carbon as well, but you can also dose Excel and your plants will rocket to the sky!


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## WillR1496 (Apr 1, 2019)

livebearerlove said:


> Personally, I have mostly low tech tanks (only one high tech). My growth is attributed to a few things:
> Water column, ferts, light. Considering most of my tanks are Nano, low-medium light with low bioloads- I need to be very diligent with controlling my ferts. I find root tabs unpredictable.... If for some reason I realize I need to cut down on ferts- then your stuck digging things up trying to find the root tabs! (did it once.... with a fluval edge- so I ended up hurting my fish trying to dig through a 4 in hole in the lid!).
> So I prefer to dose the water column.
> 
> However, with your situation of just using flourish is obsolete these days as its missing some important nutrients. Therefore I would ask you to *check out Thrive C... its more complete and its 1 squirt per 5 gallons*. It does contain carbon as well, but you can also dose Excel and your plants will rocket to the sky!


Thrive C and Flourish Excel. Got it. Will any of this be harmful to the shrimp? Or even tetras, bettas or kuhli loaches? Depending on how it would on the small tank, I'd want to try this on my 30g. Thanks!


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## IntotheWRX (May 13, 2016)

WillR1496 said:


> I've been reading more and more about using root tabs in conjunction with liquid fert. I currently use Seachem Flourish every 4 days. I do not run co2 or anything special. It's all very low tech.
> 
> 
> With that being said, should I use root tabs along with the Flourish? If so, what root tabs would you all recommend? Keep in mind that I have shrimp so I'm trying to limit the amount of cooper that is put into the tank. I know Flourish has it but it has very little in it.


Do both if you can

liquid prioritized over root tabs


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Be very careful with root tabs (or any fert, really) in shrimp tanks. Many people have lost shrimp by dosing Excel. Do understand that Excel isn't liquid carbon. https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9028033-post8.html


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

WillR1496 said:


> Thrive C and Flourish Excel. Got it. Will any of this be harmful to the shrimp? Or even tetras, bettas or kuhli loaches? Depending on how it would on the small tank, I'd want to try this on my 30g. Thanks!


I have oodles of shrimp, ottos, very rare endlers, nertite snails, etc. Start small doses, then SLOWLY increase. I know people dose mad amounts.... I personally do minimal and adjust accordingly.


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

WillR1496 said:


> Thrive C and Flourish Excel. Got it. Will any of this be harmful to the shrimp? Or even tetras, bettas or kuhli loaches? Depending on how it would on the small tank, I'd want to try this on my 30g. Thanks!



Using thrive C currently. Started with half recommended dose for a few weeks. Just recently tried the full dose. No ill effects. 



I have tried using excel in conjunction about half recommended dosage however no noticeable effects either on the shrimp or algae. 



I am at the point of just adding more plants and dosing to see what happens. I dont want to kill off everything but would like to get it under control. My 10g is fine but it has a large amount of Daphne where as the 40b has CDBs and ember tetras which eat the Daphne which prevents a large outbreak.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

I've had a lot of success using Flourish Tabs and recommend them without reservation. Whenever I use them in a new tank I always cut them up into eights (approximately) and put a chunk every three inches. Once the tank settles in and I've got a better idea of how the plants respond then I may increase the amount if it's needed.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

If your only dosing micros like Flourish Comp then you don't need Flourish root tabs, which are essentially the same thing in a different form. If your dosing macro/micro into the water then you don't really need any root tabs to grow healthy plants.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

I have no idea if you need root tabs or not. What are you feeding? What kind of substrate do you use? If it is soil-based or something like Aqua Soil, how long has it been in the tank?

If you are feeding a tank of things like Java fern and anubias, there is no point of using root tabs. They are perfectly happy being fed from the water column. On the other hand, if you have heavy root feeders, they would be happy to get some food if they are not being fed via your substrate already. 

Details would be helpful here, just sayin'.


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## WillR1496 (Apr 1, 2019)

Smooch said:


> I have no idea if you need root tabs or not. What are you feeding? What kind of substrate do you use? If it is soil-based or something like Aqua Soil, how long has it been in the tank?
> 
> If you are feeding a tank of things like Java fern and anubias, there is no point of using root tabs. They are perfectly happy being fed from the water column. On the other hand, if you have heavy root feeders, they would be happy to get some food if they are not being fed via your substrate already.
> 
> Details would be helpful here, just sayin'.


Since this is not a dedicated plant tank, I have just regular gravel. I do have a few anubias plants. some are clinging to the gravel (rhizome above gravel) and others are on driftwood. 


Here are some other plants I have:
Rotala colorata

Hygrophila odora

Hygrophila Araguaia

Limnophila indica

Hygrophila angustifolia 

Helanthium bolivianum angustifolia

Hygrophila corymbosa 'Compact'


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Stems could benefit from root tabs. Don't go crazy with them though. The suggested use for root tabs is one every 6 inches in a grid pattern.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

I never heard of a stem plant that needed a root tab to grow healthy.

There are no plants in our tanks that require or need root tabs. If you dosing the water column completely they are not needed to grow healthy plants. All you need to do is look at some of the tanks here on TPT that grow healthy plants in inert sand without root tabs.

If you not dosing the water column then yes they are helpful, otherwise most likely redundant and not necessary.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Asteroid said:


> I never heard of a stem plant that needed a root tab to grow healthy.
> 
> There are no plants in our tanks that require or need root tabs. If you dosing the water column completely they are not needed to grow healthy plants. All you need to do is look at some of the tanks here on TPT that grow healthy plants in inert sand without root tabs.
> 
> If you not dosing the water column then yes they are helpful, otherwise most likely redundant and not necessary.


I don't have stems in my tank, I find them annoying nor do I use sand. That said, I have a crypt in my tank that has been there for almost a year. While it is green and healthy, it hasn't grown despite the fact that almost everything else has been while dosing the water column. If I give it some extra food at substrate level, one of two things is going to happen. I'm going to kill it which isn't likely or it will grow. I can say the same for my Amazon swords. Not a difficult plant that usually grows like a weed, mine have not. 

I have tried to grow Vals 3 times and counting. While melting while in transition is normal, when I've tried them in the past with water column feeding alone, they die. Vals are heavy root feeders and just using ferts in the water column obviously didn't work. It is time to try something else.

I can look at pictures of tanks on here all day, that doesn't mean water parameters of all those tanks are the same. If you're willing to show me otherwise, I'll be more than happy to read and look.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Smooch said:


> *Stems could benefit from root tabs*. Don't go crazy with them though. The suggested use for root tabs is one every 6 inches in a grid pattern.


You specifically said stem plants not crypts/swords. Personally I have found the whole root feeder thing completely overblown. I have and most have grown completely healthy crypts/swords without anything in the substrate.

That being said some crypts/swords might grow faster, not healthier just faster. Who even wants that?


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Asteroid said:


> You specifically said stem plants not crypts/swords. Personally I have found the whole root feeder thing completely overblown. I have and most have grown completely healthy crypts/swords without anything in the substrate.


What are your water parameters?


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Smooch said:


> What are your water parameters?


I've had many tanks with different parameters and never had a problem growing stems plants (or any plant) without root tabs. I'm also going by all the other tanks in peoples journals that have different parameters growing a wide variety of plants in inert substrate by dosing the water column. 



Smooch said:


> I don't have stems in my tank, I find them annoying...


Why would you state how root tabs help stem plants and then say you don't have stems and find them annoying. If you mean they are annoying by the trimming that needs to be done over and over then I would agree with you. I've gone lighter on stems too due to this.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Asteroid said:


> I've had many tanks with different parameters and never had a problem growing stems plants (or any plant) without root tabs. I'm also going by all the other tanks in peoples journals that have different parameters growing a wide variety of plants in inert substrate by dosing the water column.


Since you can grow anything with water column dosing alone according to you ( I haven't asked everybody else), I figured you'd more than willing to share. All of us want to be able to say that we can grow anything, although anybody can say they can grow everything...




Asteroid said:


> Why would you state how root tabs help stem plants and then say you don't have stems and find them annoying.


In my personal experience as I've already explained, sometimes plants need help. I understand that your mantra is that anything can be grown with water column feeding alone, but not everybody is you or has your water parameters that you for whatever reason you don't want to share.

I have tried stems on several occasions. They don't grow; they rot in my substrate that consists of CarbiSea River Rock gravel, Flourite and Eco-Complete. Perhaps I would have had better luck using root tabs, but I'm over wasting money on stem plants to find out.

My water parameters:

pH: 7.2
GH: 5
KH:1
Ammonia: 0
Nitrates: 15
Nitrites: 0
TDS: 215

My remineralized RO water is very soft. Perhaps this is what keeping me from growing anything and everything I want.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Smooch said:


> Since you can grow anything with water column dosing alone according to you ( I haven't asked everybody else), I figured you'd more than willing to share. All of us want to be able to say that we can grow anything, although anybody can say they can grow everything...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm willing to share anything you want. I just told you that I've grown stems as many others have under many different parameters. If your using RO water I'm not sure why you can't adjust the water column for any deficiencies. *We are talking about the need for root tabs vs putting things in the water.* I haven't grown every plant (nor has anyone else), what I meant is whatever I tried to grew with water column dosing and root tabs did not make any difference if there was a variety that didn't grow.

My current location has soft water and is actually by coincedence very similar to yours:

PH 7.2, with full co2 6.4
KH 3

I keep macros usually in the hi-end of EI ranges.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Yes, we're talking root tabs and how to grow plants. You have yet to explain why root tabs act like such a thorn in your side. Why do you care? Nobody is twisting your arm and or forcing you to use them. There also isn't anything magical about liquid ferts. Lets not make those to be something that they're not. They don't not act like a magic wand in any tank. If that is all that it took without any other factors which you don't want to talk about, everybody would the ideal, perfect tank of their dreams. No algae, no cyano, ect..


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

```

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Smooch said:


> Yes, we're talking root tabs and how to grow plants. You have yet to explain why root tabs act like such a thorn in your side. Why do you care? Nobody is twisting your arm and or forcing you to use them. There also isn't anything magical about liquid ferts. Lets not make those to be something that they're not. They don't not act like a magic wand in any tank. If that is all that it took without any other factors which you don't want to talk about, everybody would the ideal, perfect tank of their dreams. No algae, no cyano, ect..


I'm stating they aren't necessary based on thousands and thousands of tanks. I can't give my experience and opinion? Your the one that couldn't let my comments and experience go without rebuttal. It's not magic. It's pretty simple. If the ferts are in the water column the plants can use them they don't generally need them in the substrate. 

All I said was I never had a stem plant that needed a root tab. I didn't even quote you and you couldn't let it go. So why do you care so much that I can't make a comment?


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Asteroid said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> I'm stating they aren't necessary based on thousands and thousands of tanks. I can't give my experience and opinion? Your the one that couldn't let my comments and experience go without rebuttal. It's not magic. It's pretty simple. If the ferts are in the water column the plants can use them *they don't generally* need them in the substrate.


You're not a victim, so stop. Again, I was talking to you, not everybody else. Interesting choice of words in the bolded part by the way. You've gone from never to generally. Interesting...

You're free to give your opinion, but if you don't want people asking what your issue is with root tabs then don't talk about it because eventually somebody to ask. Today it just happened to be me.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

WillR1496 said:


> I've been reading more and more about using root tabs in conjunction with liquid fert. I currently use Seachem Flourish every 4 days. I do not run co2 or anything special. It's all very low tech.
> 
> 
> With that being said, should I use root tabs along with the Flourish? If so, what root tabs would you all recommend? Keep in mind that I have shrimp so I'm trying to limit the amount of cooper that is put into the tank. I know Flourish has it but it has very little in it.


Will,

If you're only adding Flourish to the water then yes, root tabs can help a lot. If you want to get more involved and delve deeper into the nutritional aspects of your tank, using water column fertilization does work. If that's not something you want to do then root tabs/substrate supplementation is a good way to go. Providing the majority of your plants' nutrient needs via the substrate and supplementing it with a product like Flourish or Thrive to provide extra nutrients that your plants may need also works well. It all depends on what your priorities are for keeping your tank and how much time and involvement you want to put into nutrient supplementation. I've kept high tech and low tech tanks with all varieties of nutrient supplementation; none, substrate only, water only, and substrate and water combined. They all worked and met my goals for the given tank and my desires for time spent caring for the system. Remember, it's YOUR tank and YOUR hobby, so do it how YOU want and don't let others push you into something you don't want to do. As long as you're happy with it, that's all that matters. 

Regards,
Phil


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Smooch said:


> You're not a victim, so stop. Again, I was talking to you, not everybody else. Interesting choice of words in the bolded part by the way. You've gone from never to generally. Interesting...
> 
> You're free to give your opinion, but if you don't want people asking what your issue is with root tabs then don't talk about it because eventually somebody to ask. Today it just happened to be me.


It's generally because for 99% of people they aren't at all necessary if your dosing the water column fully. Around here if you say never, there's always someone who comes out and says something else. So that's the advise I would give the OP to keep it simple. Which is always the best advise for a newbie or someone asking questions. Giving the answer that works in the vast majority of situations is more likely to help then the answer that might help a tiny minority. What do you mean by issue with root tabs? I don't think they're necessary if your dosing the water column fully. Which I've said a million times. If you have low tech and only dosing micros then yes certain root tabs would be beneficial I've never said otherwise. 

BTW stick to the topic and stop getting personal. I'm simply debating root tabs and your getting into other things. Not necessary.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Phil Edwards said:


> I've had a lot of success using Flourish Tabs and recommend them without reservation. Whenever I use them in a new tank I always cut them up into eights (approximately) and put a chunk every three inches. Once the tank settles in and I've got a better idea of how the plants respond then I may increase the amount if it's needed.


I find it very interesting that experienced aquarists use Fluorish tabs, I can't understand it.
As a former chemist I like to read the label of the things I put in my tank.

They contain 0.2% N 0.17%P and 0.16%K and 2.2% Fe and 14.9% Ca.

If the whole bag(10 tabs) were crushed up and dumped in the water an entire bag would provide negligible Macros and a significant overdose of Fe and Ca.

Yet I see time after time these reccomended as a source of N and P which makes no sense to me. As a source of Micros I understand this completely, and if you aren't going to dose Micros for a while I know some top aquarists crush up two bags and put it in their substrate, however there are cheaper and more efficient ways to put Micros in your substrate. But as an N and P source it makes no sense, your water column still must provide your plant's Macro needs.

Osmocote Plus on the other hand contains 15%/9%/12% N/P/K and 0.49% Fe, those to make a lot more sense. Both as a Macro and Micro source.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

cl3537 said:


> I find it very interesting that experienced aquarists use Fluorish tabs, I can't understand it.


cl,

It depends on the application and the individual's comfort with using various products. If I hadn't done my master's thesis in substrates for growing aquatic plants then I would still be leery of adding a rich terrestrial fertilizer to my tank. There's a lot to be said for feeling comfortable with products to use in an aquarium too. With the amount of time the Flourish line has been on the market, beginners can have confidence that the products aren't going to wipe their tank out, they come with clear instructions that are easy to understand and follow, and there's a greater margin for error. It's easy for those of us with more experience and/or more detailed knowledge of biology and/or chemistry to say "Use product XYZ" or "Do ABC, not DEF." because we have a deeper information base on which to draw. Is it possible to blindly follow a given method or 1-2-3 recipe and have success? Absolutely, I've seen it happen. More often though, blindly following a method leads to trouble at some point and because the person was just checking off the recipe list he/she frequently doesn't have enough knowledge of nutrient supplement and his/her specific tank to make corrections. I encountered this time and time again over my years in the hobby, working in aquarium retail, and being the technical expert for companies who make/sell aquarium supplements (not Seachem). The benefits of starting out simply and building a strong foundation comes can't be overstated. From success comes confidence, more enjoyment of the hobby, and a greater chance of long term involvement. 

I agree with you, Osmocote is the superior overall nutrient supplement; particularly for high-demand systems. It's also very rich and can cause significant problems if used improperly or when something goes wrong. I'm currently using Osmocote+ in my high light/high demand stem tank because the nutrient balance requires higher total input and I don't want to be messing around with micromanaging dries these days. I've also used a couple varieties of Jobe's and MiracleGro sticks in the past with great success in both low and high demand tanks; sometimes with water column supplementation and sometimes without. The Flourish Tab + Flourish liquid combo has worked well for me too in "low tech" low demand systems. It all depends on the needs of the system. If nutrient demand is modest and the plants are doing well with the macros they get from other sources, the combination of Flourish Tabs and Flourish liquid can work very well to supplement minor and micro nutrient needs. It's a combo I've used for low demand systems for a long time. 

To distill the answer down; even experienced people use them because they work. If they didn't work then folks who know what they're doing wouldn't use them. It's also about a system's needs. Sometimes a system needs a high nutrient additive and sometimes it doesn't. In the end, it all comes down to the individual aquarist's needs and comfort level with a given product. "Sometimes we feel like a nut, sometimes we don't.".


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Phil Edwards said:


> ... The Flourish Tab + Flourish liquid combo has worked well for me too in "low tech" low demand systems. ...


I understand the root tab benefits ferts in low tech without dosing the water column, but Flourish + Flourish? Aren't they essentially the same thing? In fact Seachem states that they generally recommend one or the other, not both. For a company that has a horse in the race to make this comment I don't take it lightly.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Asteroid said:


> I understand the root tab benefits ferts in low tech without dosing the water column, but Flourish + Flourish? Aren't they essentially the same thing? In fact Seachem states that they generally recommend one or the other, not both. For a company that has a horse in the race to make this comment I don't take it lightly.


That's a good question to ask. I've had the opportunity to visit Seachem's facility and have detailed conversations with their scientists on multiple occasions and feel confident in my recommendation. Flourish Tabs and Flourish liquid are two products designed for both the average person wanting a couple plants in their tank as well as the beginner plant hobbyist who's starting to get into the hobby more seriously. Recommending the one or the other method is the best way for the general populace who keep a couple hardy plants but don't necessarily have systems that need more nutrient input. Once someone starts adding enough plants to need a bit more input using both products is a solid first step.

In my experience, substrate supplementation is a good long-term/slow release base for nutrient supplementation but it doesn't always meet all needs when plant mass is heavy. Having a way to give a little extra via the water column as needed has helped me a lot in the past; particularly in low tech systems. Using the substrate as the main source of nutrients is something I feel is very helpful for beginners. It's easy to understand and is much less prone to mistakes while getting a grasp on the fundamentals of aquatic horticulture. Once that foundation's in place and the person has a stronger grasp on how his/her plants grow and the system itself works, switching to water column supplementation and/or moving on to more complex things like learning how to manage multiple liquids or dry nutrients is more practical. Until that point simple, manageable, and effective is best. Too often in this hobby people who don't really know what's going on and have just enough information to be dangerous tell beginners things like they have to use more light than they're ready for, high CO2, and a dosing regimen like EI. Almost as often, I've seen those people have major issues, fail because they don't have a solid foundation, and leave the hobby. Helping people have success in the hobby is my goal, not pushing them into something they may not be ready for. 

Regards,
Phil


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Phil Edwards said:


> That's a good question to ask. I've had the opportunity to visit Seachem's facility and have detailed conversations with their scientists on multiple occasions and feel confident in my recommendation. Flourish Tabs and Flourish liquid are two products designed for both the average person wanting a couple plants in their tank as well as the beginner plant hobbyist who's starting to get into the hobby more seriously. Recommending the one or the other method is the best way for the general populace who keep a couple hardy plants but don't necessarily have systems that need more nutrient input. Once someone starts adding enough plants to need a bit more input using both products is a solid first step.
> 
> In my experience, substrate supplementation is a good long-term/slow release base for nutrient supplementation but it doesn't always meet all needs when plant mass is heavy. Having a way to give a little extra via the water column as needed has helped me a lot in the past; particularly in low tech systems. Using the substrate as the main source of nutrients is something I feel is very helpful for beginners. It's easy to understand and is much less prone to mistakes while getting a grasp on the fundamentals of aquatic horticulture. Once that foundation's in place and the person has a stronger grasp on how his/her plants grow and the system itself works, switching to water column supplementation and/or moving on to more complex things like learning how to manage multiple liquids or dry nutrients is more practical. * Until that point simple, manageable, and effective is best. Too often in this hobby people who don't really know what's going on and have just enough information to be dangerous tell beginners things like they have to use more light than they're ready for, high CO2, and a dosing regimen like EI.* Almost as often, I've seen those people have major issues, fail because they don't have a solid foundation, and leave the hobby. Helping people have success in the hobby is my goal, not pushing them into something they may not be ready for.
> 
> ...


I agree with much of what you have said, although I don't think using root tabs is plant mass dependent. If that is in fact what your saying. 

Just so you know I've been in the hobby for 13 years and have taken it further by professionally setting up tanks at both residential, commercial and LFS locations on the side since I enjoyed it. So I am not a beginner or someone with just enough information to be dangerous. Everything is in context. For a newbie the simplest approach to me is to simply dose the water column and not confusing things with root tabs which can also have a negative effect if the new hobbyist isn't religious with his maintenance and the tabs disperse into the water column. The upside to me is simply not worth it. 

The problem with some forum advise IMO is sometimes people follow experienced people who can do things that others can't and they fail. Experienced people can grow things without co2, with less light, etc. but the general masses will fail. They fail for the main reason they are not as dedicated to their tanks as the people giving the advise. So to use strong lighting, this or that isn't going to work for them since the maintenance and dedication goes hand in hand with that. I try to give practical advise on what works for most plants and most setups. There's always an exception or a unique set of circumstances that might go against this. 

Another problem I see is that people get turned off thinking they need an advanced degree in chemistry, etc to succeed. There are many here that bring their paper credentials and think it's always applicable to actually running a tank. Many here preach their chemistry knowledge etc and don't even have tanks. Some of the most successful people in the hobby come from a fine arts background. Amano (RIP), Knott come to mind. Actual experience will always trump reading or a degree IMO.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

You're absolutely right about over all experience being important, that peoples' individual experiences vary, and I agree with what you've said. You got into the installation/maintenance side of the industry after falling in love with the hobby and I fell down the rabbit hole of plant and aquatic sciences to get into the technical side of the industry after falling in love with the hobby. I think we're both coming from similar backgrounds that are different sides of the same coin. I've experienced too many people who followed poor, but well intentioned, advice and have had so many problems that they almost quit or did quit to not be blunt about it. Does that make me an [censored][censored][censored][censored][censored][censored][censored]? I hope not, but I'm certainly more curmudgeonly than I used to be. 




Asteroid said:


> I agree with much of what you have said, although I don't think using root tabs is plant mass dependent. If that is in fact what your saying.
> 
> Just so you know I've been in the hobby for 13 years and have taken it further by professionally setting up tanks at both residential, commercial and LFS locations on the side since I enjoyed it. So I am not a beginner or someone with just enough information to be dangerous. Everything is in context. For a newbie the simplest approach to me is to simply dose the water column and not confusing things with root tabs which can also have a negative effect if the new hobbyist isn't religious with his maintenance and the tabs disperse into the water column. The upside to me is simply not worth it.
> 
> ...


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Phil Edwards said:


> cl,
> It's easy for those of us with more experience and/or more detailed knowledge of biology and/or chemistry to say "Use product XYZ" or "Do ABC, not DEF." because we have a deeper information base on which to draw....
> 
> If I hadn't done my master's thesis in substrates for growing aquatic plants then I would still be leery of adding a rich terrestrial fertilizer to my tank.


It nice to see people who actually studied in this field in academia participating on this board regularly. My PHd was in Physical and Organometallic chemistry. My publications are on Researchgate, they are in Organometallic synthesis and Physical Chemistry particularly SSNMR (J. Geller et. al McGill). Did you by any chance publish anything during your Masters or beyond?, I'd be interested in reading your research on substrates if you have anything you would like to share.



> I agree with you, Osmocote is the superior overall nutrient supplement; particularly for high-demand systems. It's also very rich and can cause significant problems if used improperly or when something goes wrong.


I don't understand the speed of release of Osmocote Plus (gel cap) versus Fluorish tabs, versus Thrive Caps for that matter or comparatively how efficient tabs are used by plants versus column dosing. Do you have any specific information on that or research studies or guidelines?

How do you know how much the plant is uptaking, how do you control the release? 
What do you expect to see in plants that are showing a toxicity from root tabs?



> The Flourish Tab + Flourish liquid combo has worked well for me too in "low tech" low demand systems. It all depends on the needs of the system. If nutrient demand is modest and the plants are doing well with the macros they get from other sources, the combination of Flourish Tabs and Flourish liquid can work very well to supplement minor and micro nutrient needs.


Both Fluorish and Fluorish tabs are significant sources of Micros *not Macros*. Just reading even the commentary from Seachem on the Fluorish liquid bottle confirms this.

Fluorish liquid has even less Nitrogen in it than the tabs 0.07%!, and that is why you then have to dose Fluorish Nitrogen and Phosphorus if using the Seachem system.



> To distill the answer down; even experienced people use them because they work.


The videos I watch are dominated by aquascapers sponsored by Seachem, I am sure many people use it but I wonder if they would continue to do so if they understood how diluted and expensive comparatively the whole product line is.

If you can grow your tank with 1ppm N every two weeks and that is enough, your problem would be potential overdosing not underdosing as long as you knew that, any fertilizer should work.

At least Seachem doesn't hide the ingredients used to prepare like other brands like Tropica. Seachem Nitrogen is KNO3 and salts including Urea which by looking at N:K is like ~60% Urea/Ammonia and ~40% Potassium Nitrate if I did my math correctly. When you dose lean it seems important that the plants uptake what little Nitrogen their is efficiently so using reduced N as opposed to Nitrates is important as long as you don't add too much Ammonia to cause Bacteria or Algae Bloom.



> If they didn't work then folks who know what they're doing wouldn't use them. It's also about a system's needs. Sometimes a system needs a high nutrient additive and sometimes it doesn't. In the end, it all comes down to the individual aquarist's needs and comfort level with a given product. "Sometimes we feel like a nut, sometimes we don't.".


I struggle with this often. My LFS owner who I trust is convinced that its important to add Seachem Stability to prevent algae and diatoms at the beginning of a tank setup. At startup he says even with cycled media from a well established filter, he still would add Stability initially and for the first few months. Even after years he adds stability to his shrimp tanks for "strengthening" the bacteria monthly. I have no idea if this is by tradition or if there is any benefit to it whatsoever.

If someone who I didn't know tried to sell me Seachem stability the Scientist in me would say, I already have sufficient bacteria in my filter why would I add dormant spores to my tank, bacteria will grow rapidly without adding something much more dilute than what is already in the filter. 

The hobbyist thinking however might be is something like, "Well this guy knows what he is doing and he reccomends it and I don't want to take a chance with Algae so I'll buy the 10 dollar bottle of bacteria even though I will never know if it helped or not".


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

As i was saying, just look up one.

Bump:


Phil Edwards said:


> You're absolutely right about over all experience being important, that peoples' individual experiences vary, and I agree with what you've said. You got into the installation/maintenance side of the industry after falling in love with the hobby and I fell down the rabbit hole of plant and aquatic sciences to get into the technical side of the industry after falling in love with the hobby. I think we're both coming from similar backgrounds that are different sides of the same coin. I've experienced too many people who followed poor, but well intentioned, advice and have had so many problems that they almost quit or did quit to not be blunt about it. Does that make me an [censored][censored][censored][censored][censored][censored][censored]? I hope not, but I'm certainly more curmudgeonly than I used to be.


I think your tone and the way you share your experience is excellent. Unfortunately all too often newbies come on and are bombarded with scientific theory/conjecture that complicate things far too much for them to digest and they run for the exit. It's a wild west show and it's hard for some to know who actually is simply talking the talk and who has actually walked the walk.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

cl3537 said:


> It nice to see people who actually studied in this field in academia participating on this board regularly. My PHd was in Physical and Organometallic chemistry. My publications are on Researchgate, they are in Organometallic synthesis and Physical Chemistry particularly SSNMR (J. Geller et. al McGill). Did you by any chance publish anything during your Masters or beyond?, I'd be interested in reading your research on substrates if you have anything you would like to share.


You've got some experience that's way beyond me. Anything dealing with Organic chemistry in a directly applied setting is beyond me. My main chemistry background is in biogeochemistry and aquatic stuff as it pertains to aquatic ecology. I'm sure you could teach me a thing or fifty about the more detailed aspects of chemical mechanisms and such. I was working with the Army Corps of Engineers at the time of the gov't sequester and we lost our soft funding, meaning no PhD for me. The day we got that news was one of the saddest of my life. I envy you folks who have been able to pursue your curiosity as a career. 

Sadly, the tissue digester crapped out on me in the middle of a digestion and I lost an entire species' worth of samples so the work was unpublishable. I'll be happy to answer specific questions as best as I can via PM. I don't want to derail this topic more than I already have.



cl3537 said:


> I don't understand the speed of release of Osmocote Plus (gel cap) versus Fluorish tabs, versus Thrive Caps for that matter or comparatively how efficient tabs are used by plants versus column dosing. Do you have any specific information on that or research studies or guidelines?


I don't have any experience with Thrive's tab/cap product so I can't really speak to that. In my practical experience with Flourish Tabs vs. DIY Osmocote gelcaps the Flourish Tabs dissolve and distribute faster than the Osmocote since they have no coating. This is purely observational and not quantified.



cl3537 said:


> How do you know how much the plant is uptaking, how do you control the release?
> What do you expect to see in plants that are showing a toxicity from root tabs?


I don't have any numbers about uptake or release rates. I wish I did! To the best of my knowledge I haven't experienced toxicity issues using tabs as I bury them as deeply as possible and and generally 1/2ish inches away from an individual plant such as a sword or bunch of stems with the intent of avoiding damage from direct contact and letting diffusion bring the nutrients to the root zone. If there were to be toxicity issues I would possible root damage or stunting relative to nearby plants. With nearly every treatment I did that had direct nutrient supplementation the root systems stayed in the sand cap rather than extend deeply into the substrate as the material got severely reducing. Aquatic plants have adapted so well to rooting into pretty hostile environments and aquatic soils have such complex biogeochemical processes going on that I wouldn't expect there to be much damage to the plants overall. So many of the toxic chemicals get oxidized and effectively neutralized as they diffuse into an active and healthy root system that I wouldn't expect significant concentrations of harmful materials. 




cl3537 said:


> Both Fluorish and Fluorish tabs are significant sources of Micros *not Macros*. Just reading even the commentary from Seachem on the Fluorish liquid bottle confirms this.
> 
> Fluorish liquid has even less Nitrogen in it than the tabs 0.07%!, and that is why you then have to dose Fluorish Nitrogen and Phosphorus if using the Seachem system.


Absolutely true. That's what I was talking to when speaking about high vs. low demand systems and the need to change supplementation to meet demand. In a low-light (low-tech) system with low demand for nutrients input from fish and decaying organic matter is often sufficient. Once someone's cut their teeth and wants to start doing things that require increasingly complex nutrient supplementation then their regimen needs to change.



cl3537 said:


> The videos I watch are dominated by aquascapers sponsored by Seachem, I am sure many people use it but I wonder if they would continue to do so if they understood how diluted and expensive comparatively the whole product line is.


Nearly all of the major manufacturer's goods are aimed at the general aquarium keeping populace. Dedicated plant hobbyists are a teeeeeeny tiiiiiiny fraction of the industry's overall market. Not only are we small in number relative to the general aquarium keeping populace, but we usually find other ways of supplementing our tanks; baking soda for carbonates and dry chemicals for nutrients, for example. Complete plant nutrient lines such as the Flourish and Florin (Brightwell) are more geared toward the casual or intermediate hobbyist and/or are only made because the people who run the company either a) believe in the plant hobby or b) need to continually introduce new products to stay relevant and compete with other companies. The owner of the company I used to work for flat out told me that he wouldn't do a plant line if he didn't need to stay competitive as the money it made was minuscule.

This also gets into the realm of subjective value. Their AquaVitro line was developed in part to address the needs of the higher demand systems of intermediate/more dedicated plant hobbyists require and I know a lot of people who have found value in that. Other people find more value in dealing with the more labor intensive and twitchier approach of dry chemicals. There's no disputing that dry materials provide more of a desired material per unit of currency spent, but they're also easier to screw up. For some people the extra buffer of dilute solutions and less worry is more valuable than the additional cost vs. dries or highly concentrated solutions. Liquids are also good for the general maintenance industry as it's easier to tell a client to add a cap of this and a cap of that every couple of days rather than dealing with varying amounts of six or seven different specific additives. 



cl3537 said:


> I struggle with this often. My LFS owner who I trust is convinced that its important to add Seachem Stability to prevent algae and diatoms at the beginning of a tank setup. At startup he says even with cycled media from a well established filter, he still would add Stability initially and for the first few months. Even after years he adds stability to his shrimp tanks for "strengthening" the bacteria monthly. I have no idea if this is by tradition or if there is any benefit to it whatsoever.
> 
> If someone who I didn't know tried to sell me Seachem stability the Scientist in me would say, I already have sufficient bacteria in my filter why would I add dormant spores to my tank, bacteria will grow rapidly without adding something much more dilute than what is already in the filter.
> 
> The hobbyist thinking however might be is something like, well this guy knows what he is doing and I don't want to take a chance with Algae so I'll buy the 10 dollar bottle of bacteria even though I will never know if it helped or not.


The company I used to work for was one of the first to provide concentrated bacterial suspensions and I was able to get some pretty specific answers to the questions I had. My take away was for general freshwater use they're good for supplying the initial microbial population and for use after water changes since most people over-clean their filter media and/or use chlorinated water. Their also good for helping mitigate unexpected spikes and, depending on the microbe blend, targeting different sources of nutrients. My old company used a blend that was more effective at dealing with dissolved materials whereas the other blend was more effective at dealing with particulates. 

With all of the extra attention dedicated hobbyists give their systems and what I expect to be higher frequency water changes coupled with proper hardware maintenance practices I don't feel that microbial suspensions are as useful to us as they are to the general hobby population.

You wouldn't be surprised at how many manufacturers out there put out products that "don't hurt anything" but give some perceived value even if they don't provide practical benefits. Seachem and Red Sea are the only two major manufacturers that I know of who actually have scientists on staff and proper labs. Cobalt's got a marine biologist with a Master's on staff and one of the owners has a background in aquatic sciences and years of experience working in a lab setting, but they don't make the liquid products they sell, so they only half count. As far as companies that actually put their analyses on their label, Seachem and NilocG are the only ones I know of who do that. Just like with terrestrial fertilizers such analyses are required by law and I have no idea how other supplement manufacturers get away without them.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

@cl3537

McGill's a great school! My thesis advisor did some of his advanced studies there. I can't remember if it was his MS or PhD though.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Phil Edwards said:


> Dedicated plant hobbyists are a teeeeeeny tiiiiiiny fraction of the industry's overall market. Not only are we small in number relative to the general aquarium keeping populace, but we usually find other ways of supplementing our tanks


This whole conversation has been a good one Phil. Very interesting to hear your perspective, especially given your experience.

As you said above, it's a very small world of planted tankers out there. And high tech CO2 injected tanks even smaller. We do get caught up in a lot of gobbledygook, but a high tech tank full of fast growing stems IS pretty complicated (at least for me!).

As to root tabs, I agree they are a good thing for a low tech tank that is not water column dosing. And that is the vast majority of folks who keep plants in an aquarium. I used them when I kept a very low tech tank for many, many years. In a higher tech tank, probably of little value if dosing anything remotely like EI. 

You might remember Joe did an experiment a long time ago with them. In a high tech tank, he seeded one half with osmocote, and the other without, then planted the exact same plants in the exact same spots on either side. In general there was very little appreciable difference between the two sides. But keep in mind that was with heavy water column dosing.

Then you have the other extreme. I am sure you have been following Vin Kutty's latest experiment. Basically an active substrate LOADED with ferts (and whatever else he could find to dump in there). Almost no water column dosing, and he has said it's the easiest tank he has kept. Go figure, huh? 

So like pretty much everything else in this hobby, no way to know what work in a tank until you try it. Much like your current tank, which will be a very interesting experiment in it's own right.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Greggz said:


> Then you have the other extreme. I am sure you have been following Vin Kutty's latest experiment. Basically an active substrate LOADED with ferts (and whatever else he could find to dump in there). Almost no water column dosing, and he has said it's the easiest tank he has kept. Go figure, huh?


I haven't seen that thread, but super loading an active substrate sounds an awful lot like DIY (or recharging old) Amazonia. That's pretty much the goal with larding mine up with Osmocote.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

The shear amount of energy regarding typing seems extreme today.:grin2:

Good thing no one met in person, it'd be an all day event! >


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Phil Edwards said:


> I haven't seen that thread, but super loading an active substrate sounds an awful lot like DIY (or recharging old) Amazonia. That's pretty much the goal with larding mine up with Osmocote.


It's in the Rotala Kill Tank thread.

Starts on page 46 on 8-29 last year. 

Given what are you trying now, I think you will find it a very good read. He puts everything in there but the kitchen sink.


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

Im going to take my GED and stay at a Holiday Inn ....... :grin2:


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

quint said:


> im going to take my ged and stay at a holiday inn ....... :grin2:


lol!


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Quint said:


> Im going to take my GED and stay at a Holiday Inn ....... :grin2:


Does it have a planted tank in the lobby?


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Phil Edwards said:


> Does it have a planted tank in the lobby?


Does it comes with little bags of root tabs instead of mints being left on the pillows? LOL! >


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

Smooch said:


> Does it comes with little bags of root tabs instead of mints being left on the pillows? LOL! >


 They have one of those near me... I was frustrated to find that the continental breakfast didnt have spirulina... only brine shrimp and bloodworms. However the complimentary potassium and magnesium bevvies were nice.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Phil Edwards said:


> @cl3537
> 
> McGill's a great school! My thesis advisor did some of his advanced studies there. I can't remember if it was his MS or PhD though.


Yes its a good school or a great school depending upon the program.


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

I will say getting back into aquariums a little was an eye opener. Nothing compared to how it use to be thats for sure. Have a drawer under my tank that looks almost like a chemistry lab. Still trying to find a balance without using Co2. The oldest girl (5) is really liking the tanks. She checks on the fishes/shrimps/snails everyday and has most of there common names down. Makes figuring everything out worth it. Now if I could just teach her to do tank maintenance I would be set lol.


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