# BKK x F1 Hybrid (update #95, Blue Bolt baby)



## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

are BKK and CRS different species?


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

No, BKK's blue bolts, red wines, pandas, are all from selectively bred crystals. Crossing will probably give some hybrids that will capable of producing more in the next gen if crossed back and some bkks, maybe blue boltish, etc. I think they are capable of pretty much throwing out anything from a crystal to all the others. I'm not sure though but I thought that's what I read.


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## blacksheep998 (Jan 16, 2011)

You should get CBS offspring that will be carrying the both the recessive taiwan bee and CRS genes. Crossing those again will thoretically result in a 9:3:3:1 ratio of CBS, CRS, BKK and RKK (or whatever the red version of a BKK is being called this week, I've heard so many names for them) But in reality the ratios I hear from people seem to be all over the place.


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## Senior Shrimpo (Dec 4, 2010)

lol, they're all over the place because that's the way their genes are. My first two batches of shrimp, one from a berried hybrid and one from a berried blue bolt, only gave me ONE panda in the whole thing. My second one, which was either hybrid x hybrid or hybrid x different blue bolt, gave me at least two pandas and a red wine.

Your hybrid shrimp will all have the recessive TB gene in them, so if you cross em with BKKs again you'll get ~half BKK offspring, or if you cross em with hybrids it just gets complicated but you'll occasionally get BKK offspring lol.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

Senior Shrimpo said:


> lol, they're all over the place because that's the way their genes are. My first two batches of shrimp, one from a berried hybrid and one from a berried blue bolt, only gave me ONE panda in the whole thing. My second one, which was either hybrid x hybrid or hybrid x different blue bolt, gave me at least two pandas and a red wine.
> 
> Your hybrid shrimp will all have the recessive TB gene in them, so if you cross em with BKKs again you'll get ~half BKK offspring, or if you cross em with hybrids it just gets complicated but you'll occasionally get BKK offspring lol.


So the moral of the story if you are dealing with hybrids is to just have a big tank full of them and let them do their thing if you want to get any decent number of TBs out of them?


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

No, because eventually the tb genes will breed out. Goal would be to cull the non tb offspring, until the tank is full of tb


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## Jadenlea (Sep 15, 2011)

wow


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## dj2606 (Mar 27, 2009)

tb= Taiwan bee?


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Yah

Or tuberculosis


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## Moe (Jan 22, 2004)

Lol


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

mordalphus said:


> No, because eventually the tb genes will breed out. Goal would be to cull the non tb offspring, until the tank is full of tb


I was operating on the assumption that the hybrids that turned out as TB would be selected out and put in a different tank since they will be far more rare than the CRS/CBS looking hybrid offspring.

Either way it is going to take a large population of hybrids to generate any significant amount of TB looking hybrid offspring, correct?


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Not that large. But really, I started off with a group of around 20 hybrids, after no Taiwan bees in the first 2 clutches, I remove all of the male hybrids, threw them in my cull tank, then I got some Taiwan bees, bkk and wine red, and let those impregnate my hybrid females. Now I have a handful of wine red babies. Still have around 100 hybrid babies and juvies though that I will need to cull the males out of again in a few months.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

mordalphus said:


> Not that large. But really, I started off with a group of around 20 hybrids, after no Taiwan bees in the first 2 clutches, I remove all of the male hybrids, threw them in my cull tank, then I got some Taiwan bees, bkk and wine red, and let those impregnate my hybrid females. Now I have a handful of wine red babies. Still have around 100 hybrid babies and juvies though that I will need to cull the males out of again in a few months.


So basically if it is a male and it doesn't look like a TB you cull it? You leave anything that looks like a TB or is female? Seems like it would be hard to track the females that look like CRS/CBS but are not throwing many TBs (would be hard to track them).


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Yep, no more hybrid males in my tank, so crs genes will eventually fade out. But hopefully ill have a small tb army before that, haha. When I get a good solid group of 20-30 breeding age tbs, ill toss the hybrids into my Oscar tank and let him sort them for me.


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## Senior Shrimpo (Dec 4, 2010)

Ok well after looking at my tank closer I don't think hybrids are as worthless as you're saying Liam. I just found 10 shrimp, 6 of which are TB and 2 are either TB or CRS (I think they're TB) which had to have been the product of hybrid x hybrid. I think I got really lucky there but still, a panda is a panda is a panda.


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

You know you're a shrimp pimp when you ruthlessly cull your hybrids! Ruthless culls FTW. Must be a happy Oscar. 

Shrimpo- Can you clarify? Is a panda a panda?lol...j/k...


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

I'm looking forward to the CBS since I don't have any. 

I also plan on pulling out the male hybrid shrimp. There's no need for a male shrimp that is 1/2 BKK when you have male BKK shrimp.


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## tbarabash (May 18, 2011)

mordalphus said:


> Yep, no more hybrid males in my tank, so crs genes will eventually fade out. But hopefully ill have a small tb army before that, haha. When I get a good solid group of 20-30 breeding age tbs, ill toss the hybrids into my Oscar tank and let him sort them for me.



Oh man what a waste haha RAOK them to me I like duds


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Hey, it's never a waste when Herbert the Hoscar is well fed!


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## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

Sell me those hybrids for an awesome price. Then take the money and buy Herbert lots of ghost shrimps.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

lol, alright, when this batch of juvies grows up, I'll sell the males in the swap n shop, lol


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## PC1 (May 21, 2010)

mordalphus said:


> Yep, no more hybrid males in my tank, so crs genes will eventually fade out. But hopefully ill have a small tb army before that, haha. When I get a good solid group of 20-30 breeding age tbs, ill toss the hybrids into my Oscar tank and let him sort them for me.


I have a tank you can toss them in  just ship them with my pumpkins


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Jeez, didn't know hybrids were such a hot ticket, I'm sitting on a gold mine!!!


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## PC1 (May 21, 2010)

mordalphus said:


> Jeez, didn't know hybrids were such a hot ticket, I'm sitting on a gold mine!!!


There not, but all the same I will suffer the extra mouths to feed


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## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

Yeah geez liam! Feeding your Oscar premium meals all the time when you could be sending those out to us! How rude lol


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## mbvenenga (May 23, 2011)

Sorry everyone, I am new to this. Crossing of what would qualify as a hybrid?


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## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

Black king kong shrimp crossed with crystal red/black shrimp = hybrid


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## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

mordalphus said:


> Jeez, didn't know hybrids were such a hot ticket, I'm sitting on a gold mine!!!


Don't you know? Hybrids are the newest craze ...



mbvenenga said:


> Sorry everyone, I am new to this. Crossing of what would qualify as a hybrid?


Not the typical hybrid you would think of...like Tiger + CRS = Hybrid (TiBee) or Yellows + RCS = Hybrid.

BKK + CRS are the same species, so it's actually not a hybrid, but we all call it a hybrid.


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## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

They look exactly like a CRS or CBS but carry the genes to have taiwan bees if crossed with another hybrid or another Taiwan bee


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## mbvenenga (May 23, 2011)

Thanks for the explanation, it makes a lot more since now. Are hybrids relatively common? Are they considered a cheaper way to get BKK, Red Wines, TBs ect?


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

mbvenenga said:


> Thanks for the explanation, it makes a lot more since now. Are hybrids relatively common? Are they considered a cheaper way to get BKK, Red Wines, TBs ect?


Probably not since you're going to have to a lot of cross breeding to regular TB's to get a few TB offspring and some crystal offspring. Of course crystal's aren't exactly throw away shrimp either, and if you only have a few TB's and can get some cheap hybrids to boost up the population, may be worth it.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

I think its much faster to use hybrids if you only have a small number of BKKS. I already have dozens of female CRS I can use for breeding hybrids. So hopefully in about half a year I will have dozens of female hybrids which will have a decent number of TBs when bred with a BKK.

Also right now, I don't even know if I have any female BKKs, so its best to start doing something now instead of waiting which could possibly yield nothing.


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## doonie (Oct 27, 2011)

Looks like I had better start a full colony of true bkk now. I would hate to be the person that buys ten bkk and ends up with a 100 cbs and 5 bkk. I don't think there is any thing wrong with hybrids or cross breeding just make sure if you sell them you state that.

This is going to end up the same as crs being breed with golden bee shrimp.


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## Senior Shrimpo (Dec 4, 2010)

doonie said:


> This is going to end up the same as crs being breed with golden bee shrimp.


You don't know how right you are  

But not the way you described it. Hybrids aren't worthless in any way because of their ability to get you TBs. My plan of attack on this is pretty much what he's doing, but I don't see phasing out of my hybrids any time soon because they're doing a good job of getting me more TBs. 

Eventually though, they'll get the boot to another tank, an oh-so-secretive tank that is being worked on right now... ohohohoho


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## doonie (Oct 27, 2011)

I have cbs and I don't think they are worthless, but if I paid $50-60 a shrimp for bkk and ended up with $5-10 cbs. I would be a little ticked off.

I can only imagine how many people will sell bkk hybrids as true bkk and you won't have a clue till the fry hatch.

And this will be worse then the (red and golden)because not many people can spend $500 plus on 10 bkk , so you have o say a thousand people buying one or two of them , adding them to there crystal and other shrimp tanks and letting them breed. 

plus golden shrimp aren't all that cheap going price is still close to mid grade crs.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

From what I have read, BKKs bred from hybrid x BKK breeding are not any different than BKKs bred from BKK x BKK breeding. 

Maybe Liam can chime in here?


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## doonie (Oct 27, 2011)

That depends on who you talk to, I have heard different stories on what you get when you breed bkk with bkk. Could be the true bkk you think you are getting is all ready a hybrid ?


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

BKK requires a double recessive, so no, if you have a BKK, it's a BKK. Hybrids look like CBS/CRS.


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## doonie (Oct 27, 2011)

ok then how do you get panda from two bkk ? Or bkk from two panda's? And how come people are getting what look like bkk and others from the same batch of hybrids ?


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

doonie said:


> ok then how do you get panda from two bkk ? Or bkk from two panda's? And how come people are getting what look like bkk and others from the same batch of hybrids ?


Same way two various grades crystals can produce different grades from 1 batch. I have 1, maybe 2 at the most mom's that dropped in the past few days and I have seen what looks likes a S grade tiger tooth, 2 no hinos, and a few red eyed golden babies. Thats a wide range of grades from 1 or 2 clutches.


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## doonie (Oct 27, 2011)

and that came from your crs , and you are still getting the golden gene after how many generation?

That is what I am saying, same thing you will get 5 bkk and the rest cbs or whatever from a hybrid, once you add that gene it stay's it may not always show but it is there


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

doonie said:


> and that came from your crs , and you are still getting the golden gene after how many generation?
> 
> That is what I am saying, same thing you will get 5 bkk and the rest cbs or whatever from a hybrid, once you add that gene it stay's it may not always show but it is there


Honestly I don't know who they came from, I needed females and the buyer let me pick them out myself and take berried females, so I have no idea what knocked them up.


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## doonie (Oct 27, 2011)

There is no doubt that you will get different grade's, that is under stand able but when you end up with a completely different shrimp there is a problem. 

The golden bee was added some where along the line to bump up the grade. You add golden bee to crs you get more white less red= more money.

I don't have a true blood line ether so don't feel bad, most people don't. 

Could be the same thing tho you add cbs to all black king kong and get panda. 

Really I wouldn't be surprised to find out that bkk has tiger in it.

Some of the people breeding tibee shrimp are getting some really cool looking shrimp and some you would never know are hybrids .


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

doonie said:


> Could be the same thing tho you add cbs to all black king kong and get panda.




Except that it isn't. Panda ARE BKK. They are not hybrids, but low grades. Honestly, idle and uninformed musings aren’t really helpful.


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## doonie (Oct 27, 2011)

A better explanation would be getting 10 crs that have been breed with cbs , first time they breed you get 1/2 black 1/2 red , if you leave them in next time you get 3/4 black and 1/4 red and so on till you have very few red left and a ton of black, when you started with all red. And if you know what prices are red sells for more them black there is a reason for that, that's why I don't mix my red and black. 

as for the golden gene , I would think over time you could breed most of it out but in the end you may have a lower grade shrimp then you started with. as far as the standard for grading goes


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## doonie (Oct 27, 2011)

I was using that as an example , and if you were to grade by price. people were selling panda's for more then bkk and since you don't know what you will get or what will breed to make what , how can you grade it. 

If some one can prove me wrong please do , because that makes no sense to me


From what I make of it breeding bkk with bkk or panda with panda it's like rolling the dice cause you have no clue what you will get


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## rikardob (Aug 13, 2011)

BKK and Panda are just different grades of the same thing. It's like a ss crystal putting out s grades and sss grades?


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## doonie (Oct 27, 2011)

rikardob said:


> BKK and Panda are just different grades of the same thing. It's like a ss crystal putting out s grades and sss grades.




no kidding , so tell me which it a higher grade? and how do you selective breed for it ?


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## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

Based on price bkk is higher grade than panda. The best thing you can do is breed bkk x bkk.


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## doonie (Oct 27, 2011)

ShortFin said:


> Based on price bkk is higher grade than panda. The best thing you can do is breed bkk x bkk.



lol that is what I am getting at, if people can breed a bkk with a crs and get a bkk how is that selective breeding? 

There are people on here having group prices and all bkk are the same price, you get what you get, That don't fly in the crs grading, an a/s is $x and a sss is $x

so how can they sell them for said price if one is worth more or a higher grade?

I think the grading is screwed up on bkk , some thing just doesn't make sense


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

doonie said:


> lol that is what I am getting at, if people can breed a bkk with a crs and get a bkk how is that selective breeding?
> 
> There are people on here having group prices and all bkk are the same price, you get what you get, That don't fly in the crs grading, an a/s is $x and a sss is $x
> 
> ...


You can't breed a BKK with a CRS and just get a BKK. You get a hybrid that looks just like a CRS but has TB genes. You breed the hybrid back with a BKK and you may get 1 or 2 BKK's, and some CRS/CBS.


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## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

Look at this way...if you buy a/s and get some ss/sss. Then it's a happy customer. Same thing with this group buy. You paid for Panda and get bkk = happy customer.


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## doonie (Oct 27, 2011)

GeToChKn said:


> You can't breed a BKK with a CRS and just get a BKK. You get a hybrid that looks just like a CRS but has TB genes. You breed the hybrid back with a BKK and you may get 1 or 2 BKK's, and some CRS/CBS.




Thank you , and if you breed the hybrid to hybrid you get=?


can you shed some light on the bkk grading?


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## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

hybrid x hybrid = 50% hybrid, 25% tb, 25% normal.

Panda < 1 bar bkk < extreme bkk


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## doonie (Oct 27, 2011)

ShortFin said:


> hybrid x hybrid = 50% hybrid, 25% tb, 25% normal.
> 
> Panda < 1 bar bkk < extreme bkk



ok so out of that 25% TB it could be any grade from panda to extreme or no?


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## doonie (Oct 27, 2011)

and what grade normal would you get ?


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## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

It all depends on how tight the genes are.


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## doonie (Oct 27, 2011)

shortfin I send you a pm , check it out, that is why part of the grading make's no sense


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## Scipio (Feb 18, 2008)

Don't be so fast to turn your nose up at any hybrids that come from TBs. Those CBS/CRS looking hybrids that pop out of a BKK/panda carry the TB gene. 

What it comes down to is instant gratification if someone prefers to spend $$$ on TBs (BKK/PANDAS & RWs) or if some one prefers to take the long route with Hybrids in getting some TBs.

Early this year in March, I bought 2 BKK, 3 Pandas and 5 Red Wines from two of Yoyo's group buys. I paid a total of $750 which was an awesome price at the time considering that BKK were going for $450 each and Pandas $300-$350. Instant gratification for me 

Then in June I bought 15 Hybrids from two of Nikki's group buys over at SCAPE. I paid $12 for each Hybrid. 4 months later those Hybrids have poped out BKKs and Pandas for me, mostly BKK for some reason. RW are really hard to tell apart from CRS hybrids when very small, I have to wait at least 2 months before RW start to show their true colors. 

Having Hybrids with your TBs is not a bad thing in my opinion. Or mixing them with CRS/CBS since new blood helps to keep the blood line strong. Back in 2007 SSS CRS/CBS were so hard to keep alive for most folks that could afford them. My guess was that the blood line was very thin since they were somewhat new at the time and years of inbreeding resulted in a very fragile SSS. Today it seems that SSS are not as hard to keep since many folks including myself will add lower grades to help keep their colony from crashing. I believe this is the same with TBs, I could be wrong. 

Seems that all black bkk are the highest grade followed by 1 bar bkk then 2 bar bkk. To select breed for higher grades is a long road and requires patients and a few tanks.


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## doonie (Oct 27, 2011)

The problem or question with the hybrid that come out bkk is will they start popping out normal cbs down the road if bread with normal bkk or will it stay dormant ?

also I'm sorry to every one for carrying on about this, but I plan on buying some and would just like to know what I am in for and what to look out for as these shrimp become more available and less expensive.


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## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

the bkk gene is recessive compared to the regular cbs/crs pattern, so the only way you get a bkk is shrimp with only bkk genes and no cbs/crs genes, otherwise they would be hybrids and look like crs/cbs and not TB's. taiwan bee's physically cannot throw cbs or anything else other than other taiwans. Only hybrids can do that.


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## Mr. Leg (Feb 2, 2011)

Yes I would buy some of those hybryds too.


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## Senior Shrimpo (Dec 4, 2010)

Lol I might have to sell some of mine if there's that big of a market for em... I have a few right now.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

Update to this thread

The first clutch has hatched. The hybrid babies look like CBS and CRS, and I am sure they are from the same clutch. There is only one other female shrimp in this tank right now and she still has her eggs.

So BKK x CRS does create some hybrids that look like CRS. I was hoping for all CBS as that made things much easier to keep up with since I don't have any CBS.


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

Wheres the pics?  FWIW, updating your 1st post with a "page 5" doesnt work for everybody. Yours says page 5 but I get about 70 posts per page and your journal is only 2 pages. I would update with a date or a post#. just a tip


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)




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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

Nice job! It looks like a pretty decent one too


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## doonie (Oct 27, 2011)

Just think right now you could have BKK and Wine red fry all over your tank, Instead you have more CRS. 

I'm more interested in seeing what comes of breeding the hybrids with normal CRS as far as coloring and pattern


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## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

doonie said:


> Just think right now you could have BKK and Wine red fry all over your tank, Instead you have more CRS.
> 
> I'm more interested in seeing what comes of breeding the hybrids with normal CRS as far as coloring and pattern


breeding the hybrids back to crs/cbs wouldn't net you anything new 99% of the time, it would just wipe out the genes that made them hybrids.. you'd wanna breed them with more bkk/panda/rr/wr to get variations in the patterns.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

doonie said:


> Just think right now you could have BKK and Wine red fry all over your tank, Instead you have more CRS.
> 
> I'm more interested in seeing what comes of breeding the hybrids with normal CRS as far as coloring and pattern


Actually no. I don't have any female BKKs that are of reproductive age yet, so I can't breed a full blooded BKK with what I have right now.

I think it would be pretty stupid not to start breeding hybrids now based on the small number of BKKs I have.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

Update time

The hybrids from post #67 have grown up. I took the females and put them in my TB tank. I have quite a few berried hybrids now and the first clutch has finally hatched. I think it was the longest month ever. Here (in the center of the pic) is a BKK or Panda that is less than a day old.


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## Lifeblood (Jan 31, 2012)

the baby looks blue imo. Pretty awesome.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

Congrats!


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

So break it down to me on what you need to get bkk's. In all this info I got lost. Then to get a shadow u breed with a blue bolt??? I am new to tb's and want to learn


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

Basically I put some female CRS in a tank with BKKs. The resulting offspring are hybrids which look just like CRS/CBS. Once those hybrids grew up, I put the female hybrids in the tank with the BKKs. Then the offspring that those females are either BKKs, or hybrids. Doing this allows me to build up my population of Taiwan Bees faster. Once I have enough, I probably won't mess with hybrids anymore.


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## vincent201089 (Jan 16, 2012)

EKLiu said:


> Basically I put some female CRS in a tank with BKKs. The resulting offspring are hybrids which look just like CRS/CBS. Once those hybrids grew up, I put the female hybrids in the tank with the BKKs. Then the offspring that those females are either BKKs, or hybrids. Doing this allows me to build up my population of Taiwan Bees faster. Once I have enough, I probably won't mess with hybrids anymore.


Why don't you choose CBS instead of CRS? If you choose CRS, you may get CRS/CBS hybrid instead of just CBS hybrid. Am I correct?
When choosing those CRS, you pick the highest grade you have in the tank?


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## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

EKLiu said:


> Basically I put some female CRS in a tank with BKKs. The resulting offspring are hybrids which look just like CRS/CBS. Once those hybrids grew up, I put the female hybrids in the tank with the BKKs. * Then the offspring that those females are either BKKs, or hybrids*. Doing this allows me to build up my population of Taiwan Bees faster. Once I have enough, I probably won't mess with hybrids anymore.


[STRIKE]Just wanted to point out that there will also bee (see what I did there? :icon_lol non-hybrid homozygous CRS phenotypical shrimp too. 25% TB, 25% Regular CRS, 50% Hybrids.[/STRIKE] EDIT: Just re-read, you actually said BKK X Hybrid. Wow. Tuesday morning FAIL

Also, at that point, you should sell me some hybrids! lol :hihi:


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

vincent201089 said:


> Why don't you choose CBS instead of CRS? If you choose CRS, you may get CRS/CBS hybrid instead of just CBS hybrid. Am I correct?
> When choosing those CRS, you pick the highest grade you have in the tank?


Yes, the F1 hybrids were 50/50 red/black. I used CRS because they were all I had at the time. It would simplify things if my hybrids were all the same color.

I am using some nice female CRS (SS and SSS) for making hybrid babies because that is what is convenient. It does make for some nicer looking F1 hybrids (a few are SSS) but it doesn't really seem to matter since breeding TBs is the goal.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

vincent201089 said:


> Why don't you choose CBS instead of CRS? If you choose CRS, you may get CRS/CBS hybrid instead of just CBS hybrid. Am I correct?
> When choosing those CRS, you pick the highest grade you have in the tank?


I don't think the grade or color is important as you're only use the crystal as a carrier for the TB genes to be remixed with TB's later on. The whole TB thing is weird. It came from a mutation of crystals and mixed tanks with CRS, CBS and golden/snow whites but seems to have developed into a whole cluster of genes that can get passed.


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## vincent201089 (Jan 16, 2012)

I see. Lets not talk about the grade of the KK, panda, if I only want BKK, panda I only need to let kingkong (AA) vs CBS (aa) in *tank I* and F1 I'm gonna get 100% CBS (Aa) with TB gene.

Let assume that I have another tank and I take those F1 CBS (Aa) vs daddy (AA) and I would get F2 50%AA, 50%Aa in *tank II*. 
-The 50%AA should be panda to kingkong.
-The 50%Aa is hybrid.

Collect those AA and bring them to *tank III* I would get that tank with only TB panda, kingkong.

If I end up with no more tank after step II. AA vs AA= great, AA vs Aa= 50-50, but Aa vs Aa= 25%AA- 50%Aa- 25% aa(CBS)

Let me see what do I need
- 3-4 tanks (the third and fourth tank is for AA only or I will have 25% CBS again)
- probably 1 year and even more
- collect the AA, Aa to the 3-4 tanks, aa for sale or whatever.

Looks like after a year I have a whole tank of TB, I guess there's gonna be other hot type of shrimp and TB turns to be SSS at this time (this one is just my opinion, I don't know).

So is it better if I go straight to buy few TB to decrease my waiting time??? 

One more thing, how about the survival rate of the F1 F2? The hybrid is Ok but I heard many people could keep AA, also have Aa vs Aa and get few AA baby too. But the problem is those AA baby can't survive! They are too weak and gone before they get big enough to xxx again!


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

vincent201089 said:


> I see. Lets not talk about the grade of the KK, panda, if I only want BKK, panda I only need to let kingkong (AA) vs CBS (aa) in *tank I* and F1 I'm gonna get 100% CBS (Aa) with TB gene.
> 
> Let assume that I have another tank and I take those F1 CBS (Aa) vs daddy (AA) and I would get F2 50%AA, 50%Aa in *tank II*.
> -The 50%AA should be panda to kingkong.
> ...


Yes, your basic Mendel square genetics are correct. I think messing with the whole hybrid thing was more beneficial a year or two ago when TB gene's were weak and they were expensive. It was an easy way to try and get some extra TB's, throw some female crystals in there and cull a bit and you can end up with some or if you bought a few TB's since they were in the hundreds of dollars then, and only got males (or females) use opposite sex crystals to help keep your $500 investment alive. Also, at first, the gene's were weak. As with most new shrimp, a mutation pops up and you select it and breed with other and breed back, etc or wait for another mutation. All shrimp then start from 1 or 2 mother shrimp. Most of the main breeders have already done the back crossing to crystals and done all the hybrid culling mess in order to add new genes to their lines and are always probably doing that to keep the lines fresh,giving us much more robust and cheaper TB's. Now away when you can pay $40 for a TB or a high grade crystal and the TB's breed good with good baby rates, it's not needed as much to mess with crystals anymore. Spending 8 months to get a few extra TB's isn't worth the 3 or 4 tanks needed, etc.

Of course this all means you can't do it, people do all kinds of things that aren't needed and if you want to play genetics, go ahead, but the need for it isn't there anymore as it was 2 years ago.


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## vincent201089 (Jan 16, 2012)

Very clear here, sir.



> and only got males (or females)


I don't know that.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

If you have a few extra tanks, I don't see any problem with using hybrids. Right now I have 10 female hybrids (and many more on the way) which is like having 5 extra Taiwan bee females in terms of reproductive capacity. Its cheap insurance if you are starting with a small number of TBs.

Last year when I bought my first BKKs, I only bought 4 of them so I would not be out too much money if they did not survive my tank conditons. That turned out to be a good decision because the seller screwed up on the shipping which resulted in an extra day in transit and 83 degree water for those poor shrimp. 3 of those BKKs actually survived for a few months and I got a few clutches of hybrids out of them. Without those hybrids I would have nothing (except the bitterness of a poor shrimp purchase) from that first group of BKKs I bought.


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## randyl (Feb 1, 2012)

I exchange emails with some Asia breeders and what I get from them is, baby shrimps from BKK x BKK have much lower survival rate, even today (not to mention years ago). Some claim better than others with some special treatment that are kept secrets, the hint I got is some nutrient/mineral deficiency with TB but conversations stop there ;-)

One breeder told me although most people think F1 hybrid x BKK will get you the best BKK ratio (I'm using BKK just as an example, could be any TB), but it's not that simple. In his experience, he uses Fn (where n > 2) female x BKK male and the offspring will be close to 80% BKK and with better survival rate. Note, these Fn may NOT be from F(n-1) x F(n-1), could be BKK x F(n-1), however, that's his trade secret so I didn't ask for details. Nowadays though, he does mostly BKK x BKK since he is more experienced to raise the baby shrimps and it's 100% BKK.

These breeders produce a lot of hybrid (gene shrimps) and they are available in the markets for a very low price since they simple don't need that many. They can be had for like $2 to $3 each and if you just judge by the grading system most of us follow, they can easily be SS/SS+ themselves. BTW, the grading system mainly based on pattern is so 5 years ago in Asia, the colour intensity and body features are so much more important to them, and to me that makes a lot more sense.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

randyl said:


> BTW, the grading system mainly based on pattern is so 5 years ago in Asia, the colour intensity and body features are so much more important to them, and to me that makes a lot more sense.


I can tell looking at wholesale price lists. A grade is like $2.50 a shrimp, SSS+ is $7.50 a shrimp and the other grades fall in between. As opposed to over here where an A grade is $3-5 but a SSS+ is $30-50.

An Ebiten pureline S grade is $18 on the list though. lol. Big difference and shows they care more about the purelines and better whites and reds than patterns as much now.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Here's a good chart to help people with hybrids.


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## randyl (Feb 1, 2012)

Mendel's law/Mendel's Principles of Heredity only describes the outcome of something that's controlled by single gene on one chromosome. Colouration on shrimp may not be that simple, although I haven't read any academic paper on that to confirm. 

If all things are this simple, then a smart person x a smart person should always get a smart kid, and that's not true. Some features of an creature can be decided on the distance of multiple genes' location on a chromosome, and inbreeding can achieve higher ratio in offsprings that's not limited by the 50% limitation in the forth row in the picture. For example, if BKK occurs when gene X and gene Y is closer than distance Z, then the change in the offspring can be gradually approaching Z so the ratio of BKK will actually get greater as "n" gets bigger in Fn. Although, even this is a simple case as there may be other factor such as if the gene happens to be on the chromosome that decides the sex of the creature, or a combination of multiple things including it.

If BKK is controlled by one gene, then after Fn in the hybrid there's almost no chance of getting a BKK if Fn x Fn.

This is as much as I can remember from Breeding and Genetics I took 20 years ago, I can be wrong as always.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

randyl said:


> Mendel's law/Mendel's Principles of Heredity only describes the outcome of something that's controlled by single gene on one chromosome. Colouration on shrimp may not be that simple, although I haven't read any academic paper on that to confirm.
> 
> If all things are this simple, then a smart person x a smart person should always get a smart kid, and that's not true. Some features of an creature can be decided on the distance of multiple genes' location on a chromosome, and inbreeding can achieve higher ratio in offsprings that's not limited by the 50% limitation in the forth row in the picture. For example, if BKK occurs when gene X and gene Y is closer than distance Z, then the change in the offspring can be gradually approaching Z so the ratio of BKK will actually get greater as "n" gets bigger in Fn. Although, even this is a simple case as there may be other factor such as if the gene happens to be on the chromosome that decides the sex of the creature, or a combination of multiple things including it.
> 
> ...



Human Genetics are way more complicated, often non-mendelian, and much of what determines our intelligence is due to upbringing.
Also our gene expression is very advanced and changes throughout our lives, you can't use human anything as an example.
For instance eye color is determined by many many genes, and just because you inherit the gene for no pigment(grey eyes) doesn't mean you will have grey eyes, because if you inherit a gene for a special layer in the eye then you have that layer, and that layer scatters light and makes the pigment less eye appear blue. 
This is called Rayleigh Scattering and is why people with the gene for no eye pigment can have different color eyes - hazel, green, blue, grey, and in the case of Elizabeth Taylor, purple eyes.
The purple coloration I believe was due to something to do with pressure in the eye and something to do with blood vessels, but it comes a long with eye problems, I believe.


A lot of shrimp coloration is simple mendellian genetics, so a punnet square can typically suffice.

However some colors are due to incomplete dominance or co dominance, I assume which means it isn't as simple as a dominant trait simply masking the recessive trait.

Also when working with hybrids you are dealing with a dihybrid cross not a monohybrid cross. 
That means you have a lot of genes at play. 



The TB is apparantly recessive. 
But if you have a homozygous recessive gene for say, the solid BKK phenotype, you may also have a Heterozygous gene from a CBS which could explain the Panda phenotype.

Certain genes may be linked, meaning they are on the same allele so you are forced to inherit both of them.

For instance genes for the wine red phenotype or genese for the blue bolt phenotype may be on the same allele as the genes CRS/CBS phenotype, If the offspring aren't Homozygous dominant then the Wine Red or blue bolt phenotype might be expressed, and may explain why those traits keep popping up in Heterozygous crosses... 

If the genes are linked you aren't going to get rid of one without getting rid of the other.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

From what I have been able to understand from some of the Asian and European breeders over on SN it appears that Taiwan Bee genetics do not follow regular Mendel square genetics precisely.

The deviation is large enough to matter but since the genetic complexities of Taiwan Bee shrimp are still sort of a mystery I don't know that anyone has a precise answer yet.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

madness said:


> From what I have been able to understand from some of the Asian and European breeders over on SN it appears that Taiwan Bee genetics do not follow regular Mendel square genetics precisely.
> 
> The deviation is large enough to matter but since the genetic complexities of Taiwan Bee shrimp are still sort of a mystery I don't know that anyone has a precise answer yet.


I bet it would follow mendelian genetics.

You aren't going to be able to solve it with a simple Monohybrid cross punnet square, though. 

Could even be a trihybrid cross...


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

Chlorophile said:


> I bet it would follow mendelian genetics.
> 
> You aren't going to be able to solve it with a simple Monohybrid cross punnet square, though.
> 
> Could even be a trihybrid cross...


Yeah, I stated it wrong.

The actual genetics probably follows but the normal squares and calculations used most commonly don't. There are multiple alleles or whatever. 

There is some relatively detailed data on what % come out as what so someone with a strong background in genetics may be able to work backwards based upon the results and figure out how many genes are at work or whatever.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

Who would have ever thought this genetics stuff could be this complicated. LOL.

Here's another baby picture


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

EKLiu said:


> Who would have ever thought this genetics stuff could be this complicated. LOL.
> 
> Here's another baby picture


How beautiful, yet still so young! :hihi:


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

Awww yeah. Baby blue bolt:


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Cute


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## h4n (Jan 4, 2006)

very cool baby bolt! haha


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## vincent201089 (Jan 16, 2012)

Wow, nice done. That BB looks great. 

Is it your first time following this method on breeding kk and crs hybrid?

Wait. You said bkk vs crs in your avarta = BB. How can it be? You should get F1 hybrid. And then use that F1 x again with bkk. I'm confusing. Or that crs is already hybrid F1?


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## randyl (Feb 1, 2012)

A side question but related, is it possible to get any TBs from just hybrid x hybrid? I know it will be low but is it possible at all? (from real experience)


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## vincent201089 (Jan 16, 2012)

randyl said:


> A side question but related, is it possible to get any TBs from just hybrid x hybrid? I know it will be low but is it possible at all? (from real experience)


Yes. If you follow the crossing chart. It will give you 25% TB 50% hybrid and 25% regular crs or cbs.

The first important goal is having alot of F1 hybrid. So if you have few female F1 berried. The chance to get TB is not low.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

vincent201089 said:


> Wow, nice done. That BB looks great.
> 
> Is it your first time following this method on breeding kk and crs hybrid?
> 
> Wait. You said bkk vs crs in your avarta = BB. How can it be? You should get F1 hybrid. And then use that F1 x again with bkk. I'm confusing. Or that crs is already hybrid F1?


Yes, this is my first time breeding Taiwan Bee x Hybrid. I have updated the title now.

The BB have come from a BKK (or Panda) x F1 Hybrid cross.


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## randyl (Feb 1, 2012)

vincent201089 said:


> Yes. If you follow the crossing chart. It will give you 25% TB 50% hybrid and 25% regular crs or cbs.
> 
> The first important goal is having alot of F1 hybrid. So if you have few female F1 berried. The chance to get TB is not low.


Forget about the ratio, I don't think that's true. With your theory, TB x Hybrid should give you 50% of TB, you can give that a try. 

Has anyone actually got any TBs from hybrid x hybrid?


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

So far the clutch of eggs hatched from the F1 Hybrid is like an All-Star team of Taiwan Bees. I've seen BKK, BB, and Shadow Panda (hopefully the blue color lasts). 

I am still holding out hope that the CBS Hybrid X BKK cross will result in some extra nice CBS (ones that look like PBL). That might be asking for too much though.


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## FreedPenguin (Aug 2, 2011)

EKLiu said:


> So far the clutch of eggs hatched from the F1 Hybrid is like an All-Star team of Taiwan Bees. I've seen BKK, BB, and Shadow Panda (hopefully the blue color lasts).
> 
> I am still holding out hope that the CBS Hybrid X BKK cross will result in some extra nice CBS (ones that look like PBL). That might be asking for too much though.


This thread is awesome. I have started on my own journey of this caliber as i am setting up a new tank just to try this out!
Great looking babies by the way!

So F1 is the offspring from BKK x CRS crossing? The you cross the F1s back to the BKK?


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

FreedPenguin said:


> So F1 is the offspring from BKK x CRS crossing? The you cross the F1s back to the BKK?


Exactly


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## FreedPenguin (Aug 2, 2011)

Man oh man I am excited. I just bought a new 20gal long (42.99+tax ouch! should've bought one last dollar per gallon sale  )

I am planning a UGF canister filtration with Azoo plant grower substrate.

I wanted to ask, EKLiu, do you use any kind of old sea mud powder or anything like that under the substrate?


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## vincent201089 (Jan 16, 2012)

randyl said:


> Forget about the ratio, I don't think that's true. With your theory, TB x Hybrid should give you 50% of TB, you can give that a try.
> 
> Has anyone actually got any TBs from hybrid x hybrid?


The chart is just an idea what we would get. The ratio of # of TB, hybrid, regular will depend on how strong the TB gene is.

*YES* is the answer for your question. There's few people in my local shrimp club get KK and WR in their CRS, CBS only tank. They got their shrimps from the same source and didn't know that those shrimps having TB gene. After few batches, they started to see some berried mama with few dark color eggs and those eggs are KK and panda they're having in their tanks now (neither of them buy any TB).

My question is. When is the best time to put male and female in breeding box? Is the male always ready and they just waiting for the female? Is eggs appear on female head a good sign that that female is ready to XXX and that the time to catch male and female into breeding box?


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

Here is a much nicer shot of a baby BB and a possible baby Shadow Panda. The markings look like SS grade more than typical Panda though..


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

FreedPenguin said:


> I wanted to ask, EKLiu, do you use any kind of old sea mud powder or anything like that under the substrate?


I just use Aquasoil Amazonia on top of Flourite. I use the Flourite since it is heavier and makes keeping plants down much easier.


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## guppies (Jan 16, 2010)

EKLiu said:


> Here is a much nicer shot of a baby BB and a possible baby Shadow Panda. The markings look like SS grade more than typical Panda though..


Wow the BB baby is high grade, already has a dark blue color in it's body and the "hino" shadow panda?? roud: nice work.


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

Now will those babies cary the CRS gene in them, so if the BB is breed with other BB's you could get a BKK or CRS??? Same with shadow panda?? Trying to learn this whole hybrid thing and under stand all viable outcomes


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

guppies said:


> Wow the BB baby is high grade, already has a dark blue color in it's body and the "hino" shadow panda?? roud: nice work.


The key is buying high quality TBs from a trustworthy source.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

sbarbee54 said:


> Now will those babies cary the CRS gene in them, so if the BB is breed with other BB's you could get a BKK or CRS??? Same with shadow panda?? Trying to learn this whole hybrid thing and under stand all viable outcomes


The TB babies (Blue Bolt, Panda, etc...) will be full blooded Taiwan Bee shrimp.

There is a nice chart at shrimpnow that shows the outcomes of TB and hybrid breeding which you can find here:

http://www.shrimpnow.com/forums/sho...-survival-rate-and-other-breeding-infos/page2


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## guppies (Jan 16, 2010)

I keep looking at your "hino" shadow I think it is very rare and actually worth a lot more than an average panda. Could be a pinto with hino pattern.

http://crustahunter.com/en/node/959


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## Senior Shrimpo (Dec 4, 2010)

EKLiu said:


> The TB babies (Blue Bolt, Panda, etc...) will be full blooded Taiwan Bee shrimp.
> 
> There is a nice chart at shrimpnow that shows the outcomes of TB and hybrid breeding which you can find here:
> 
> http://www.shrimpnow.com/forums/sho...-survival-rate-and-other-breeding-infos/page2


I have been like preaching this since the dawn of time! I don't really think it's right though. I've found the genetics to be more random than anything. But at least that is a start.

Also yeah shadow hinos are really valuable right now. I don't think it's a pinto, I think pinto is something diffrerent, but hinos are really cool in their own right and very rare. Check out saisai ebi for a bunch of pictures haha


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## vincent201089 (Jan 16, 2012)

I was really surprised when I see those high grade offspring. When is the best time to put the female and male in the breeding box? Can I do it when I see eggs on female back or it's too soon or too late?

I wanna let them in the breeding box so that I can follow and make sure there's no unwanted male in there. 

One more thing. In case I onky have one male kk but few females are ready. Could that kk male handle those females in a same breeding box?


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## randyl (Feb 1, 2012)

I think the best thing to do is to cull all male hybrids if you have male BKK, and leave them in the tank with no other male. This way you don't add stress that may impact their willingness/readiness for breeding. 

One male shrimp can handle multiple females. I have a tank with 1 male PFR + 10 female, the females keep getting berried. I understand BKK are more fragile but it's better to get him to mate while he still can, I think 1 BKK with 5 females shouldn't be too far off.


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