# Does anyone here have a reef(saltwater) tank in addition to a planted tank?



## miogpsrocks (Sep 3, 2015)

Does anyone here have a reef(saltwater) tank in addition to a planted tank? 

If so, what do you like better? 

Do you seem any similarities between the coral and plants? 

Thanks.


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## planttastic (Feb 28, 2015)

I have both. There r some similar aspects to both, but both r different in there own way. Saltwater u need lots of expensive equipment. Fresh not so much.

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## miogpsrocks (Sep 3, 2015)

planttastic said:


> I have both. There r some similar aspects to both, but both r different in there own way. Saltwater u need lots of expensive equipment. Fresh not so much.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


Which do you like better?


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## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

I have never had a SW aquarium, but i personally feel that a reef would top even the best planted tank. I just find them so amazing with the different colors and livestock available.


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## WickedOdie (Aug 15, 2015)

Reefs look soooo nice! It's a personal preference however as to which looks better. BUT! I need to have a fat wallet before I can dabble in salt water. I dont know about in the stats but the fish here are 50-100 bucks a piece, not to mention the corals and live rock. It's definitely the more expensive aspect of the hobby.


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## miogpsrocks (Sep 3, 2015)

WickedOdie said:


> Reefs look soooo nice! It's a personal preference however as to which looks better. BUT! I need to have a fat wallet before I can dabble in salt water. I dont know about in the stats but the fish here are 50-100 bucks a piece, not to mention the corals and live rock. It's definitely the more expensive aspect of the hobby.


I live on the ocean so I figured I would take my boat out and look for some corals to save money or perhaps get a very small nano reef so a little coral will go along way. 

I do know some people with coral tanks and it seem its like a full time job for them to maintain them. I am always traveling so I would have to figure out a way to automate everything such as a system to replace the evaporated water with distilled water. 

I may give it a shot with a 29 gallon.


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## JDS1212 (Mar 18, 2012)

miogpsrocks said:


> I live on the ocean so I figured I would take my boat out and look for some corals to save money or perhaps get a very small nano reef so a little coral will go along way.
> 
> I do know some people with coral tanks and it seem its like a full time job for them to maintain them. I am always traveling so I would have to figure out a way to automate everything such as a system to replace the evaporated water with distilled water.
> 
> I may give it a shot with a 29 gallon.


I had a reef tank for years.but the time and money it takes to keep it going took the luster out of it for me.


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## planttastic (Feb 28, 2015)

Saltwater has more colorful fish and coral, but us also more expensive and little more difficult. 

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## planttastic (Feb 28, 2015)

That is y I have both. I switched my 180 over to planted tank because of the cost and time it took to maintain. 

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## lksdrinker (Feb 12, 2014)

miogpsrocks said:


> I live on the ocean so I figured I would take my boat out and look for some corals to save money or perhaps get a very small nano reef so a little coral will go along way.
> 
> I may give it a shot with a 29 gallon.



I think thats a big no no. I dont know if its just certain areas or certain coral, but for the most part you're not supposed to touch coral let alone try to remove some for your own use. 

I dont think many people would say they dont like the look of a real reef tank. But, as this site is specifically geared towards planted frewshwater tanks, you might get some skewed responses!


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## Bushkill (Feb 15, 2012)

I could write many, many paragraphs here.

I spent 13 years, neck-deep on the Reef side. Went through every lighting platform change and put the brakes on when I saw the first mid-3-figure LED fixture. The 4-figure skimmers were a close second.

It just became a rich man's game that spun into an out-of-control collector craze that justified incredible prices for chopped up corals by giving them a goofy name or saying some guru "discovered" it. I really had to shake my head at people sending corals to David Tyree "for evaluation". Just insane if you ask me.

There's a bigger range of organisms available, but honestly the FW side comes close if you dig deeper than Liveaquaria. As for colors, some of the FW hybrids and planted tank techniques have helped me forget about the SW side for the most part.

So no I don't miss it at all, and I really enjoy the feeling of being able to leave 1,000G of FW under the control of a few timers for a few days and not lose any sleep worrying about it.


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

sohankpatel said:


> I have never had a SW aquarium, but i personally feel that a reef would top even the best planted tank. I just find them so amazing with the different colors and livestock available.


You may not have ventured over to the AGA contest tanks then. AGA Aquascaping Contest I know for sure some of them rival SW. After awhile, most SW tanks all look the same. Planted tanks are fairly unique for I don't see duplicates really. SW is different in it's own way and definitely has a colorful beauty and feel. Although I have never had one, I wish to venture that way one day. The expense is up there though. It was going to cost me nearly a grand just for live sand and live rock for my 90g tank. I just may still go thru with it.

Bump:


miogpsrocks said:


> I live on the ocean so I figured I would take my boat out and look for some corals to save money or perhaps get a very small nano reef so a little coral will go along way.
> 
> I do know some people with coral tanks and it seem its like a full time job for them to maintain them. I am always traveling so I would have to figure out a way to automate everything such as a system to replace the evaporated water with distilled water.
> 
> I may give it a shot with a 29 gallon.


Yeah it's against the law to take from public beaches. Also you don't replace SW with RO or distilled. You need to already have some SW for an automated top system ready to go. Using anything other than SW will throw the salt ratio off. I spent 2-3 month over on Reef Central researching when I was thinking about going reef for my main display. I learned a descent amount of info over there but I am not means a SW expert.


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## miogpsrocks (Sep 3, 2015)

Bushkill said:


> I could write many, many paragraphs here.
> 
> I spent 13 years, neck-deep on the Reef side. Went through every lighting platform change and put the brakes on when I saw the first mid-3-figure LED fixture. The 4-figure skimmers were a close second.
> 
> ...


Wow. I had no idea it was so intense. That much money and time.

I am starting out extremely small. Just a 29 gallon nano reef. I think I am just going to find the most hardy beginner coral and fish I can. 

I thought I had really spent a lot of money but not compared to what you are talking about. 

I took to ebay and got a $130 LED light, $20 refractometer, $100 skimmer, and $100 auto top off system, $100 stand, $30 aquarium, $50 salt. So I don't think I have gone too crazy so far. 

So you have a 1,000 gallon FW Aquarium now?


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## NotCousteau (Sep 25, 2014)

I finally took the plunge into saltwater last month. There is a special allure to saltwater. I resisted for many years due to the cost, but I figured that I needed to try it once to satiate my curiosity. I set up my reef tank about 1 1/2 weeks ago. It just wrapped up its cycling (thanks to awesome live rock and sand from Tampa Bay Saltwater), and I expect to add my first fish in a few weeks.

Undoubtedly, saltwater is more expensive: the fish, the corals, the invertebrates, the equipment and the live rock. However, I feel, as in the case with freshwater, that you can create a successful set up on a budget. When I got back into freshwater about two years ago after an 8-10 year break, I was overwhelmed by the number of expensive choices in lights, equipment, designer tanks, "it" fish, etc. I think the same is 10 times more true with saltwater, where many forums celebrate and revere very high-cost "builds." It's almost like the equipment is more alluring for some, which is totally fine.

However, in this din of noise over the latest and greatest products, newbies can get the wrong impression that they can't build a successful saltwater tank on a budget or without some of the latest and greatest equipment. miogpsrocks has a good take on how to make saltwater work for your budget. I'm glad I started.


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## miogpsrocks (Sep 3, 2015)

flight50 said:


> Also you don't replace SW with RO or distilled. You need to already have some SW for an automated top system ready to go. Using anything other than SW will throw the salt ratio off.


No, that is not true. When water evaporates from a saltwater aquarium, the salt does not evaporate with it. So your auto top off system need to be distiller/RO water to prevent the salinity from increasing. 

If you are doing a water change, then you use a saltwater mix but for the auto top off system which replaces evaporated water, you use distiller/RO.


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

miogpsrocks said:


> Does anyone here have a reef(saltwater) tank in addition to a planted tank?
> 
> If so, what do you like better?
> 
> ...


I have both, a 125 gal reef system and a 90 gal planted system. 

I love them both. Each offers something unique. Asking me to pick which one I like better is the same as asking a parent to pick which child they like better. 

While there are some similarities between corals and plants, in that your trying to get them go grow and thrive, the methods used are very different. It really is a completely different mindset, and you need to be aware of it when you make changes to the system.

For example, in a planted tank a canister filter is an excellent choice. In a reef a canister filter is often a problem. Another example, in a reef you want nitrate and phosphate to be just about as low as you can get them. In a planted tank you usually need to add nitrates and phosphates and other ferts for the plants. 

Yes, the initial investment in a reef system can be a lot higher, and the cost to run one might be higher depending on equipment and livestock selection. Like any other aquarium system a lot depends upon what you want out of the system.

Lastly, I will add that the FW planted systems have been around for years, and the methods of keeping them have been fairly well worked out. The reef system is still seeing major advances, and some of then really change the way a reef system is set up. There are also a lot more possible options. This also means that there are a lot of questionable or marginal products introduced. The bottom line is that you really need to become knowledgeable in many areas to keep a reef system running well for the long term.


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## jboone82590 (Jul 4, 2015)

I have 6 tanks fr 10 to 75 and salt to fresh and planted to a turtle tank lol 

I set up a 29 gallon salt tank a few months ago and love it. it's small and easy to keep nice and I just do soft coral a lot easier to keep and cheaper to and I have a 75 gallon planted that I love and it is amazing 

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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

I have both. The salt side can absolutely get more expensive. But once you have the equipment you need, it's not that bad. I spend maybe $50 a year on salt, I think. But only because I use the absurdly expensive junk and... you know the drill. 

Already have RO filters on account of... you know... extreme multiple tank syndrome. So replacing those once or twice a year isn't expensive.

For me, I tend to go for cheaper corals. Or the ones I get, I get slowly over time. Has never been too expensive on that front. 

If you treat SW as more of an extreme hobby and save up for things, do things slowly, it is a much easier pill to swallow. 

(I like plants way better. WAAAAY better.)


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## Mxx (Dec 29, 2010)

Have had successful planted tanks and am missing keeping one and the simplicity of doing so. Keeping a successful planted tank, whether low-tech or high-tech takes a fair bit of knowledge and for it to be set up right from the start. In keeping a reef tank there are a lot more variables to consider however, and therefore at least twice as much knowledge you really should have. 

Keeping a reef running optimally requires quite a bit of equipment as well in comparison to planted tanks (which can be fine with maybe nothing more than a powerhead and heater), but a lot of people also go overboard with that and with having the latest and greatest. The equipment for a reef can help keep things stable as is required for finicky, and reduce the work required as otherwise you need to manually do the things like dosing. But you don't need to keep finicky hard corals either, and can get by with easier to keep soft corals. I tried to carry out a slightly simplified version of reefkeeping, but that was partially a mistake with trying to do without equipment such as dosers, and a refugium. 

So far as equipment goes, I'm in the process of upgrading from a 37 gallon reef tank to a 65 gallon, and I haven't spent more than a few hundred dollars total as there is a lot of hardly used equipment available from people who quit the hobby. A 65 gallon size made sense for me as it is a tank and stand big enough to house and to justify the amount of equipment necessary to run a low-maintenance reef tank, including a sump refugium, dosers and large dosing bottles, and fluidized media reactors. So it's more expensive than planted, but is less expensive than many other hobbies still. 

So I still find mastering reefkeeping and keeping algae away to be an intriguing challenge, while my planted tanks basically ran themselves entirely algae free and were perhaps a little more rewarding as such in terms of relaxation and peace of mind.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

I have a fairly low tech SW tank, just a bunch of softies. It is beautiful, but I prefer the FW tanks. It was very expensive to start up, and a lot more work. The fish are beautiful, and they do have a lot of character. My sailfin, blenny and hawkfish are all characters, but I think FW tanks are more tranquil.

I also am not very fond of the aura surrounding SW. The forums I visited, minus 1, were all very snobby and elitist, no one wants to help someone who is interested in starting a tank the right way. I bought my tank used, and didn't understand the wet-dry in back of it, and I got all my information from here. Only forum I was fond of for SW was 3reef. reefcentral, I didn't get a SINGLE word of advice. All I wanted to know was how to go about figuring out what to do with the old VHO system that came with the tank along with the ballast and what not. I do really love the fish in SW, but I also believe FW has it's character fish as well, for my main tank, my Rainbow Shark has as much character if not more then my SW fish. Also, I can go on vacation for a week and not even worry about the FW tank, while the SW tank needs constant check ups.


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## rininger85 (Jun 30, 2013)

I have a 240 gallon 8ft x 2ft x 2ft saltwater/reef tank with a 75 gal sump and 40B refugium (about 300 gallons total). It's nothing special right now because it has been neglected all summer long (and I just upgraded to this tank in January this year, so haven't really filled it yet, but do have a good quantity of fish and some corals in it). I've debated about breaking it down and converting it to a planted tank just because of the fact that I've neglected it so much this summer... it would be a lot easier to convert it to freshwater and not have to worry about dosing / water changes to keep my water parameters where I want them (I've hooked up a couple dosing pumps, but haven't really put the time in to running the tests to figure out how much of each item is used up / needs to be dosed on a daily basis etc. so I'm just shooting from the hip, means things aren't growing as well as they could.) I also have a moisture issue that I haven't fixed yet with that amount of water in my already moist downstairs of my house. I think going freshwater I could drop the temperature a bit and save a lot of money on my electric bill as well as reduce the amount of moisture in the air and the amount of water in the room...

But then I look at my reef tank and tell myself IF I was to break it down and convert it to freshwater I'd probably never do that large of a saltwater tank again because of the amount of money I have invested in it right now... so I am slowly finishing the upgrades that I need to finish automating everything on the reef tank and get the moisture issue under control and keep the reef tank going, then once the moisture is no longer an issue I'll probably set up a 75-120 gal freshwater planted tank is what I'm thinking...

I also have a 40B reef tank on my desk at work, and I'm in the process of setting up a 40B planted tank on my co-worker's desk behind my desk (to replace his 20H freshwater tank), and also setting up a 30 gallon freshwater tank for my cousin's daughter... so I'm happy for now.. I think the build / initial set up is half the fun just thinking about the potential of what can be done so I'll live vicariously through the other people's tanks I'm setting up right now until I can get my house issues resolved to do another planted tank for myself.

Bump:


Little Soprano said:


> I have a fairly low tech SW tank, just a bunch of softies. It is beautiful, but I prefer the FW tanks. It was very expensive to start up, and a lot more work. The fish are beautiful, and they do have a lot of character. My sailfin, blenny and hawkfish are all characters, but I think FW tanks are more tranquil.
> 
> I also am not very fond of the aura surrounding SW. The forums I visited, minus 1, were all very snobby and elitist, no one wants to help someone who is interested in starting a tank the right way. I bought my tank used, and didn't understand the wet-dry in back of it, and I got all my information from here. Only forum I was fond of for SW was 3reef. reefcentral, I didn't get a SINGLE word of advice. All I wanted to know was how to go about figuring out what to do with the old VHO system that came with the tank along with the ballast and what not. I do really love the fish in SW, but I also believe FW has it's character fish as well, for my main tank, my Rainbow Shark has as much character if not more then my SW fish. Also, I can go on vacation for a week and not even worry about the FW tank, while the SW tank needs constant check ups.


If you want a forum that is good for helping with SW / reef tanks PM me and I'll get you to the right place. The forum I frequent the most is very helpful and was created just because of the way the other saltwater forums operated, they wanted a friendlier place for people to learn...


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## Mxx (Dec 29, 2010)

I thought the SW forums were fine for the most part. Some such as reefcentral have quite serious of users and tech-geeks. But there is a very large volume of threads so it's easy for some to get overlooked. Sometimes I've had a response to questions, sometimes not. Sometimes I've asked too complicated or too long of questions which get ignored as they aren't quick and easy to answer or simply aren't of interest to others as a topic perhaps. And I've seen other people post things like, "I'm a beginner so plz tell me how to set up a reef tank" which are sometimes ignored as well, I'm guessing as things like that are something they should read a book about or put in the effort of doing their own research at least. At times I'll post the same thread on reefcentral and nano-reef as you do tend to get slightly different types of answers from the different forums for some reason. 

Sounds like a lot of people seem a bit more content with their planted tanks than their reef tanks in any case! (Although I suppose this is a planted tank forum, which might have something to do with it). 

With my reef tank I had actually tried doing that as a planted tank, with seagrass and a mud base under the sand, in the hopes that the plants might suppress algae. That didn't really work, and when I bought a sea hair to mow down the algae I almost lost all of my seagrass as well...

Plants and corals are much the same however, good light, clean water, some flow, and some nutrients. Corals and SPS corals specifically just happen to be a lot more demanding in terms of how much light, flow, and the particular nutrient levels they require and consume. And to avoid algae in a reef tank and for corals to thrive you need to use plenty of phosphate removing media. The methodologies are slightly different however, as it's a lot easier to test your calcium/alkalinity/magnesium levels accurately in a saltwater tank than it is to test for certain critical nutrients for plants such as iron/potassium/etc.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

Mxx said:


> I thought the SW forums were fine for the most part. Some such as reefcentral have quite serious of users and tech-geeks. But there is a very large volume of threads so it's easy for some to get overlooked. Sometimes I've had a response to questions, sometimes not. Sometimes I've asked too complicated or too long of questions which get ignored as they aren't quick and easy to answer or simply aren't of interest to others as a topic perhaps. And I've seen other people post things like, "I'm a beginner so plz tell me how to set up a reef tank" which are sometimes ignored as well, I'm guessing as things like that are something they should read a book about or put in the effort of doing their own research at least. At times I'll post the same thread on reefcentral and nano-reef as you do tend to get slightly different types of answers from the different forums for some reason.
> 
> Sounds like a lot of people seem a bit more content with their planted tanks than their reef tanks in any case! (Although I suppose this is a planted tank forum, which might have something to do with it).
> 
> ...


Thats why I adore 3reef.com. When I look for a forum, I judge them against this forum LOL. And they have a very nice community going on, and when you ask a question, you have 9-10 well thought out responses pretty quickly.

I do think after plants the next logical progression is a SW tank, but I still love my FW tanks. My Rainbow Shark is pretty much as much of a wet-dog as my Sailfin tang is. He'll stare at me through the glass when I walk in the room, and starts swimming side to side if I show him his Hikari Crab Cuisine (absolute hit with him, my Tang, and my blennies, go figure). 

Only thing I do find more fascinating about SW then FW is the amount of micro-life. The micro-organisms in SW are fascinating. Made having a tank with just live rock very fascinating. The asterina stars, the copepods, I have a bristleworm that hitchhiked in a while back that I see come out and clean up after a feeding at night, the millions of mysis shrimp that zoom around the crevices in the live rock. Its fascinating to watch. But I'm also a "nerd" as I've been called.


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## Mxx (Dec 29, 2010)

I guess that's what's helpful about having a variety of forums, and I'd pick-and-choose between them depending upon how technical a question I had. As a beginner I often had simple general questions I needed my hand held on, but was also researching and trialing some very technical variables simultaneously. 

The role of micro-fauna in the marine aquarium ecology I found quite fascinating as well. I was thinking of trying to add a refugium for pods and gammarus, etc for my freshwater tank, as well as adding live blackworms to aerate a deep sand bed, to see if having similar 'live sand' would be advantageous in fresh. Other microfauna has given me headaches however, including fireworms, etc, and certain fish I've had to add just to keep those in check. In my reef I was surprised to see what looked like certain types of plankton drifting around as well. 

I presume all of us here are nerds in a certain sense, although I hear this became a desirable label of late!

P.S. and to 'out-nerd' you, I presume you mean amphipods or copepods rather than mysis shrimp which are actually a freshwater organism. : )


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## Bushkill (Feb 15, 2012)

Reading this made me think back to the moisture issues I had in the basement when it was all SW. I topped out at about 600G of SW all running open-topped. The only real solution was to run a dehumidifier during the summer/spring, but that just wasn't gonna happen. I have 1,000G of FW in the basement now, 90% with glass tops and I don't have any of the moisture issues anymore.

There are times I miss the reefs, but honestly not much. I can walk through a couple of bigger LFS now and just walk right past the SW section altogether and not even realize it.




rininger85 said:


> I have a 240 gallon 8ft x 2ft x 2ft saltwater/reef tank with a 75 gal sump and 40B refugium (about 300 gallons total). It's nothing special right now because it has been neglected all summer long (and I just upgraded to this tank in January this year, so haven't really filled it yet, but do have a good quantity of fish and some corals in it). I've debated about breaking it down and converting it to a planted tank just because of the fact that I've neglected it so much this summer... it would be a lot easier to convert it to freshwater and not have to worry about dosing / water changes to keep my water parameters where I want them (I've hooked up a couple dosing pumps, but haven't really put the time in to running the tests to figure out how much of each item is used up / needs to be dosed on a daily basis etc. so I'm just shooting from the hip, means things aren't growing as well as they could.) I also have a moisture issue that I haven't fixed yet with that amount of water in my already moist downstairs of my house. I think going freshwater I could drop the temperature a bit and save a lot of money on my electric bill as well as reduce the amount of moisture in the air and the amount of water in the room...
> 
> But then I look at my reef tank and tell myself IF I was to break it down and convert it to freshwater I'd probably never do that large of a saltwater tank again because of the amount of money I have invested in it right now... so I am slowly finishing the upgrades that I need to finish automating everything on the reef tank and get the moisture issue under control and keep the reef tank going, then once the moisture is no longer an issue I'll probably set up a 75-120 gal freshwater planted tank is what I'm thinking...
> 
> ...


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## Sarlindescent (May 14, 2015)

*SW Site*

I am just starting a SW 10 today.


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## magnod (Jun 22, 2011)

miogpsrocks said:


> Does anyone here have a reef(saltwater) tank in addition to a planted tank?
> 
> If so, what do you like better?
> 
> ...



I have both.

Personally, I go through phases on which tank I enjoy more. Right now, the planted tank is getting most of my attention. Probably because it is doing pretty well and takes the most time in maintenance. With the fertilizing routine, weekly cleaning, and trimming of all the plants, the planted tank takes up much more of my time. At least my planted tank is at a good balance so it is not too difficult to maintain. My saltwater tank is pretty stable as well. I change some water each week, feed the animals, and that is about it. The saltwater equipment/food/fish are more expensive, needs careful setup, location maybe damaged by salt spray, frequent water testing, and it takes a bit more effort in changing water since I have to get the water prepped. 

I do have to say that since I live in Hawaii, I am able to catch a few things to put in my saltwater tank pretty easily, so that does make the saltwater tank interesting. I just haven't gone fishing for a while, but it is always interesting to find cool things to watch grow in your aquarium. If you get some zoa's or other low maintenance corals, it should be pretty easy to grow. Most people say you need perfect water for them, but I found that they do okay (maybe not great) in a variety of water conditions. You will need a good light (just like you would for plants) and they grow really slowly, so you need patience. 

Overall, both have their pros/cons. I enjoy both depending on my mood. Right now, I'm building a tortoise and lizard cage with a small water feature. That's been on my mind most of all.


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## kb27973 (Mar 4, 2015)

I had a reef for about 10 years. Switched to freshwater planted a few months ago. The diversity of life in my reef was mind blowing. Everything was alive. Some of the fish are very difficult to keep like the Regal Angel in the pic below (I had to train it to eat prepared foods). Reefing is amazing but the amount of work and money was what ultimately made me switch. I would put in hours on Sundays cleaning all the equipment and doing a 30 gallon water change (mix salt, lug buckets..). Freshwater maintenance is SO easy! I love water changes now  I'm having a blast with the planted tank. I finally got my large school of fish! 

Pic of the now shutdown reef:


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## NotCousteau (Sep 25, 2014)

kb27973 said:


> I had a reef for about 10 years. Switched to freshwater planted a few months ago. The diversity of life in my reef was mind blowing. Everything was alive. Some of the fish are very difficult to keep like the Regal Angel in the pic below (I had to train it to eat prepared foods). Reefing is amazing but the amount of work and money was what ultimately made me switch. I would put in hours on Sundays cleaning all the equipment and doing a 30 gallon water change (mix salt, lug buckets..). Freshwater maintenance is SO easy! I love water changes now
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow! Nice reef! Sad to hear it's gone. I totally understand your reasoning, even though I'm moving in the opposite direction (started my first reef tank about a month ago).

A reef is much more money and time. I'm hoping that keeping it small (33 gallons) will help.

Here are before and after photos:


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## kb27973 (Mar 4, 2015)

Nice start with the aquascaping. Don't want this to come off sounding harsh but the tank is way to young for coral and sponges. You need time to build up the food chain starting with phytoplankton. The Orange tree sponge is a filter feeder and so doesn't need light. Algae will kill it if it gets on it so I would move it to a darker area where it gets good flow. Are you feeding the tank at all?

PS - Is that a blueberry gorgonian? Gorgonians are hard too.


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## NotCousteau (Sep 25, 2014)

kb27973 said:


> Nice start with the aquascaping. Don't want this to come off sounding harsh but the tank is way to young for coral and sponges. You need time to build up the food chain starting with phytoplankton. The Orange tree sponge is a filter feeder and so doesn't need light. Algae will kill it if it gets on it so I would move it to a darker area where it gets good flow. Are you feeding the tank at all?
> 
> PS - Is that a blueberry gorgonian? Gorgonians are hard too.


Hey, no worries. The sponges and gorgonian came as part of Part II of the Tampa Bay Saltwater package, which is what I ordered for my live sand and rock. You basically get what they send you, and they are aware that they are sending items to a new tank. I won't argue whether that's right or wrong, but it's what the package includes.

I have read that sponges need more mature tanks, but also that in reality, sponges like the tree sponge, will nearly always die an any tank -- young or mature. If I had known that previously I may have asked TBS about it, but they don't list what they'll send you.

The live rock does come encrusted with different, less demanding sponges as well.

The gorgonian is a plexaurella species and is photosynethetic, although, yeah, I'm feeding the tank.


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## kalan850 (Aug 21, 2012)

I have both, different in many ways and similar in many ways. To be honest to you can run a reef the same as a planted tank. Instead of adding ferts top off the tank with rodi water. Do the same water changes with salt as you would the planted just mix salt first and your set. At the moment I prefer my planted setups. More pleasing to look at right now. Although feeding my eel is very entertaining! I would say the only mandatory equipment needed for a reef would be an rodi filter, a couple of powerheads a and a quality salt mix. Just don't forget to top off and keep up on water changes.


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

Bushkill said:


> I could write many, many paragraphs here.
> 
> I spent 13 years, neck-deep on the Reef side. Went through every lighting platform change and put the brakes on when I saw the first mid-3-figure LED fixture. The 4-figure skimmers were a close second.
> 
> ...


Same for me....was WAY into salt in the 80's to early 90's...it just got too crazy! Now when I see a fish that costs $150 and may have been poisoned with cyanide for collection....I just shake my head.
I rarely even go into the SW section at the LFS anymore.

Planted tanks are are much more relaxing. Sure I care about my fish but I sure don't lose much sleep over a $5.00 cory VS. a $150 saltwater fish
I am also a gadget guy...messing wth CO2 and LED's satisfies that!
I don't miss SW one bit!


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## kb27973 (Mar 4, 2015)

NotCousteau said:


> Hey, no worries. The sponges and gorgonian came as part of Part II of the Tampa Bay Saltwater package, which is what I ordered for my live sand and rock. You basically get what they send you, and they are aware that they are sending items to a new tank. I won't argue whether that's right or wrong, but it's what the package includes.
> 
> I have read that sponges need more mature tanks, but also that in reality, sponges like the tree sponge, will nearly always die an any tank -- young or mature. If I had known that previously I may have asked TBS about it, but they don't list what they'll send you.
> 
> ...


Ha! TBS is still around? I bought my first rock from them probably 15 years ago. You will get a bunch of hitchhikers on that rock - some good some bad. Unfortunately what you read is true. Things are much better than just a few years ago with keeping non-photosynthetic animals, but without a ton of work and a dedicated tank they will probably starve. Gorgonians - even photosynthetic ones are also very hard to keep alive. This is from experience. I managed to keep tree sponges alive for quite a while but Gorgonians always wound up getting algae on them and just wasting away. They are tough because not only do you have to keep a lot of food suspended in the water but it has to be the right size. To a lesser degree this applies to corals too. They don't get 100% of their nutrition from light. They need to be fed. You've got good rock for biodiversity but I would also buy a detritivore starter kit from a place like inland aquatics. You'll get all kinds of worms, pods and mini stars that will multiply and become part of the food chain. I even used to dose phytoplankton to my tank. Sounds like you are new to saltwater. I would highly recommend the 3 volume set The Reef Aquarium by Delbeek and Sprung. They were written awhile ago but much of the information still applies. Good luck with your journey!

PS - how do you like your Tunze?


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## NotCousteau (Sep 25, 2014)

kb27973 said:


> Ha! TBS is still around? I bought my first rock from them probably 15 years ago. You will get a bunch of hitchhikers on that rock - some good some bad. Unfortunately what you read is true. Things are much better than just a few years ago with keeping non-photosynthetic animals, but without a ton of work and a dedicated tank they will probably starve. Gorgonians - even photosynthetic ones are also very hard to keep alive. This is from experience. I managed to keep tree sponges alive for quite a while but Gorgonians always wound up getting algae on them and just wasting away. They are tough because not only do you have to keep a lot of food suspended in the water but it has to be the right size. To a lesser degree this applies to corals too. They don't get 100% of their nutrition from light. They need to be fed. You've got good rock for biodiversity but I would also buy a detritivore starter kit from a place like inland aquatics. You'll get all kinds of worms, pods and mini stars that will multiply and become part of the food chain. I even used to dose phytoplankton to my tank. Sounds like you are new to saltwater. I would highly recommend the 3 volume set The Reef Aquarium by Delbeek and Sprung. They were written awhile ago but much of the information still applies. Good luck with your journey!
> 
> PS - how do you like your Tunze?


Oh yeah, TBS is still around and kicking. I read up on the pros and cons before deciding to buy from them, so I was aware of the bad hitchhikers. I've pulled about 8-10 bad crabs (generically termed "gorilla" crabs and a mithrax crab) and believe that I have a mantis shrimp in my tank because I've heard loud clicking and have seen some crab casualties (some gorilla crabs and unfortunately, some good porcelain crabs). I know there are more gorilla crabs in the tank, and I'm trying to trap them over time.

I also have at least two pistol shrimps I saw and decided to keep. I know the pistols aren't killing the crabs because I had them quarantined when I heard a loud clicking coming from Crab Death Rock.

I have to say that I'm very happy with TBS rock. It's sad to know that some of that life (barnacles) will die, but there is so much other life. I think it simply looks amazing. I've seen amazing reef tanks started with dry rock, and as beautiful as they are, they look less "natural" to me than tanks with TBS rock.

I'm new, so maybe my opinions will change, but so far I really dig my TBS rock and sand. Thanks for the recommendations. I'll look into it.

That's actually a Jebao WP25. I like it so far. There's a diversity of settings and good control over pulse strength. It does emit a low hum, but I can live with it.


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## kb27973 (Mar 4, 2015)

Isn't the amount of life amazing? If you have any questions feel free to ask. I've been there probably 
Ken


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## NotCousteau (Sep 25, 2014)

kb27973 said:


> Isn't the amount of life amazing? If you have any questions feel free to ask. I've been there probably
> Ken


It is amazing. Thanks for the offer; I'll definitely let you know if I have questions.


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## rininger85 (Jun 30, 2013)

I'm about a month late on responding now, but that's because I don't come here very often anymore so just noticed the responses... I'm over on thereeftank.com the most, there are a lot of people there who left reefcentral because of the rules/politics that they play over there, so they started their own forum to allow people to talk about whatever they want... I had hesitated to post the name here is why I had said I'd PM it just because I don't come here often enough anymore to remember what the rules are here regarding posting external sites. I know a couple of forums I'm on freak out if you post external links, and a couple others that freak out if you post any kind of review (good or bad) about a vendor that you've dealt with etc... so I've scaled back and mostly just read thereeftank because they don't spazz out on you for sending people to other forums if there is good information to be read, and appreciate seeing both good and bad reviews for vendors (and actually have vendors that are active on the forum that if you post a bad review about doing business with them they are there to try and help resolve your issue, whereas other forums I'm on are afraid of offending sponsors so you can't say the name of any vendor because it might take business away from your sponsor... just seems silly, so TRT is what I judge everyone else by just because as long as you're not being disrespectful towards other members and keep it family friendly you can talk about whatever you want to talk about.


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## rininger85 (Jun 30, 2013)

I am just the opposite of some of these posts... I started out with freshwater and then discovered that it wasn't really "that" expensive to do a saltwater tank, so I started a 10 gal, which after several months of bad luck/bad attempts I decided to upgrade to a 40 gallon to make it easier, then bought a house and went to the 240 to be able to keep the fish I wanted... someplace in the middle of that I discovered planted tanks so I took a couple of attempts at planted tanks, converted a 55 gal freshwater to a planted tank that was mostly a failure because I didn't know enough about substrates, then set up a 10 gal planted tank that was pretty awesome, had a 40 gallon planted tank that never did much, but broke it down when I moved and bought the 240 saltwater figuring I only wanted to deal with one tank at home. I kept the 10 gal planted going at work for a while longer but then a coworker set up a 20 gal freshwater tank which was stocked to the brim with all of the guppies I had given him out of my tank so figured we didn't need two freshwater tanks so broke it down and set up a 20 gallon saltwater tank at work, which after several months was just too restrictive so now I have a 40B saltwater tank at work. I have a 40B tank cycled at home that I built a 3D background to make a sandfall in that I'll be using as a planted tank to upgrade the co-worker's 20 gal freshwater whenever I get the time to finish fine tuning the sandfall/background...

I've never got in to the high end planted tanks because I don't want to invest the money in CO2, but after neglecting my 240 saltwater at home all summer and seeing it turn in to a tank full of algae I've considered several times about breaking it down and converting it to freshwater and having an 8ft planted tank instead... but I have too much money invested in that tank and it's not even a year old yet to give up on it and break it down now... so I have to keep it going... plus my wife likes my saltwater tanks better... we're both scuba divers and I dive quite a bit in local lakes and enjoy just going and finding a weedbed to hover over and watch the life in the weed beds, but she doesn't like to dive locally, she wants to go see the tropical fish / corals (and warm water) if she's diving.. so for that reason I'll keep trying to get my big saltwater tank the way I want it... like I said, it's not even a year old yet, and the first couple years of a saltwater tank there is a lot going on until the tank matures and stabilizes, so I need to kick up my game a little bit and work on getting it cleaned up again then I can start working on making it the tank of my dreams =)


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## insane (Oct 11, 2015)

RC can take a certain kind of skin to handle the politics. It is best to know what you are walking into before you walk into it. Especially in the lounge. If you don't know the flow you can and will be pounced on in the lounge. Been there, done that.

On the other hand RC is a great place to learn. You don't have to get into it with anyone or into any drama but you can still learn what you need to know to have a great reef. If you focus only on what the experts are saying you will do fine. They are easy to spot.

Every internet forum is going to evolve into whatever it becomes and it is the owner that sets the rules and limits. There will always be people that do not like certain rules and will walk away to start a new forum but even those will have someone walk away and start their own forum because of something. This has been happening for a very long time and it will continue to happen at every forum on the internet.

The people that freak out the most when you give a less than stellar review of a product are the fanboys. Ignore the fanboys.


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## rininger85 (Jun 30, 2013)

insane said:


> The people that freak out the most when you give a less than stellar review of a product are the fanboys. Ignore the fanboys.


the fanboys must be admins on the forums I'm thinking of because I know a couple of the forums I quit going to because I had threads shutdown and received warnings for saying something about a vendor. 

Maybe one day I'll be back with a bigger planted tank... I would love to set up a 75 gal planted tank some day, but not until I get the reef tank under control and running the way I want it (and control the humidity in my fish room! that's my biggest problem, but will probably be adding glass tops shortly to lower evaporation).


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## jun_celis (Nov 16, 2015)

Bushkill said:


> I could write many, many paragraphs here.
> 
> I spent 13 years, neck-deep on the Reef side. Went through every lighting platform change and put the brakes on when I saw the first mid-3-figure LED fixture. The 4-figure skimmers were a close second.
> 
> ...



Agree 100%!


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## thatg33kgirl (Dec 3, 2015)

I've had both, and I'm starting to get back into aquascaping and fw, but not sw! While I loved my sw set ups, it was a lot more work and money! Sw is rewarding, but it can get really expensive (and frustrating) really fast. At least it did for me.


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## mikluha (Dec 4, 2015)

I have both. Next to each other. Long-time FW experience helped me to run reef tank - with better understanding chemistry and problem (algae is dealt with the same way - you need to starve it).
I use reef-lights for planted tank. CO2 is shared (FW plants and SW calcium).

Interestingly, tanks are completely different in their appearance. FW is plants/cichlids, so it's very active. Many fast moving/brightly colored fishes.

Reef is calm. It's a fun to watch "microscopic" activity - tine hermits, crabs, shrimps (one of tangs loves free "massage", so he is constantly require cleaning services from a shrimp - fun to watch), coral activity during feeding, night time - worms and who knows what else lives behind live rocks and come out for night feast.


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## Bushkill (Feb 15, 2012)

A long time ago, I tried to boil the whole thing down to a simple description: In the SW game, only bad things happen fast. It rewards only consistency, patience, and deep pockets. In the FW game, bad things happen; just not quite as fast and now that my pockets are empty, I sleep better.


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## Bushkill (Feb 15, 2012)

I don't think there are many, IF any, on the SW side that haven't been through a disaster of some sort with their tank/s. I went through 3 over 13 years and decided enough is enough. If your tank suffered during the summer, think about the reason and ask yourself what will change next summer. Knowing if /when to cut the cord has a different answer for everyone.

My first grandchild should arrive mid-january and lives a 4 hour drive away. SW tanks would suffer mightily and I know I'd have it in the back of my mind all the time. A hobby just shouldn't do that. Switching just cuts that out. Two or three days away and all I come home to is hundreds of fish greeting me at the glass. 

The term "liberating" comes to mind.




rininger85 said:


> I have a 240 gallon 8ft x 2ft x 2ft saltwater/reef tank with a 75 gal sump and 40B refugium (about 300 gallons total). It's nothing special right now because it has been neglected all summer long (and I just upgraded to this tank in January this year, so haven't really filled it yet, but do have a good quantity of fish and some corals in it). I've debated about breaking it down and converting it to a planted tank just because of the fact that I've neglected it so much this summer... it would be a lot easier to convert it to freshwater and not have to worry about dosing / water changes to keep my water parameters where I want them (I've hooked up a couple dosing pumps, but haven't really put the time in to running the tests to figure out how much of each item is used up / needs to be dosed on a daily basis etc. so I'm just shooting from the hip, means things aren't growing as well as they could.) I also have a moisture issue that I haven't fixed yet with that amount of water in my already moist downstairs of my house. I think going freshwater I could drop the temperature a bit and save a lot of money on my electric bill as well as reduce the amount of moisture in the air and the amount of water in the room...
> 
> But then I look at my reef tank and tell myself IF I was to break it down and convert it to freshwater I'd probably never do that large of a saltwater tank again because of the amount of money I have invested in it right now... so I am slowly finishing the upgrades that I need to finish automating everything on the reef tank and get the moisture issue under control and keep the reef tank going, then once the moisture is no longer an issue I'll probably set up a 75-120 gal freshwater planted tank is what I'm thinking...
> 
> ...


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## mootay (Feb 16, 2015)

miogpsrocks said:


> Does anyone here have a reef(saltwater) tank in addition to a planted tank?
> 
> If so, what do you like better?
> 
> ...


I'm working on having both. Still much to learn about keeping a reef before I dive in, so to speak. I hear they are maintenance heavy though, more so than high tech planted freshwater tanks.


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## insane (Oct 11, 2015)

Bushkill said:


> My first grandchild should arrive mid-january and lives a 4 hour drive away. SW tanks would suffer mightily and I know I'd have it in the back of my mind all the time. A hobby just shouldn't do that.


You can monitor, view and control any tank from anywhere now. It costs more to set up initially but it removes that aspect of worrying about a tank while you are out of the house.

I am setting up 5 tanks at once. Three high tech planted and two reef. If something can be automated/controlled/monitored I am putting it on the tanks.

Congrats on your first grandchild.


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## Bushkill (Feb 15, 2012)

insane said:


> You can monitor, view and control any tank from anywhere now. It costs more to set up initially but it removes that aspect of worrying about a tank while you are out of the house.
> 
> I am setting up 5 tanks at once. Three high tech planted and two reef. If something can be automated/controlled/monitored I am putting it on the tanks.
> 
> Congrats on your first grandchild.


Oh, the worrying about leaving it alone, was just one aspect. At the time, it really wasn't the driver.

I've already commented on the humidity issues from 600G of open-top tanks running. A de-humidifier would've been out of the question as electric rates climbed.

The first issue I faced on my journey to being neck-deep in SW was the electric grid in my rural area. The tiny frequent brown-outs destroyed Rio Powerheads and pumps. They would wilt on a daily basis. Expensive lesson #1: there's no cheap dates in this hobby.

Tank automation was in its' infancy about the time I bailed out. 

But having replaced / upgraded countless powerheads, return pumps, and upgraded skimmers, and I won't even talk about spending my way through all the lighting platform changes over that time. It was just time to cut the cord. Anybody remember VHO's?

Thanks! Can't wait to see her. Only 6 weeks away!


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## slythy (Sep 1, 2015)

i had a 55g reef 10 years ago, before led lighting and all the cool gadgets that have become much more mainstream and cheaper. I loved that tank but it wasnt optimal at all. power compact lights and regular florecents, hang on back filters and skimmer etc. I really wish i had the money for a drilled tank with a sump, that would have made my life so much better. I think if you have the means to do it properly from the get go its awesome, but man the work and cost of it was pretty crazy. I like my simple lowtech, autodosing, single black piranha planted tank. the colors may not be as pretty but its easy and relaxing haha. 

spending $100 on a freshwater fish seems crazy, but its easy to spend 200-300 on a single fish or $100+ on a single peice of coral with salt.


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## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

ive done only vase reefs for 15 yrs, this is my original vase glass and some of the corals are from 2001, but new rock as of 2006. They are very long lived, use no pumps or filters, they are just like a planted vase only a reef lol and require the typical work of topoff and water changes, but at 1 gallon its not really any work. they'll grow any coral you can fit into a vase, without all the complexities of typical reef tanks. they tend to live longer too than full sized reefs due to simplicity, except if you knock over the whole vase with your elbow=bad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8zMWHAkJtM

to get build logs, just google vase reef build there are lots of them from various builders. These are the easiest and cheapest reefs one could own. Will outlive 95% of any sized home reef you put them up against...due to ease of access. When a giant reef gets algae, its hard to beat. when a reefbowl gets algae, you just blast it out with peroxide and move on while the other reefs struggle, easy!!


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## rininger85 (Jun 30, 2013)

Leaving my tank alone doesn't really concern me - the only real issue my tank has when I'm not standing next to it is that my fish are forced to eat pellets because I haven't figured out how to feed black worms / white worms out of an automatic feeder that would only dispense a small amount of worms every time you turned it on... I have not finished automating my water change/dosing regiment completely, but once I'm finished it will all be automated so if I can get to it once a week or every other week I can make sure all of my dosing containers are topped off and food is topped off and then leave without worrying about the tank until I get home.

The biggest issue I had this summer was that I did not have the money to automate everything in the first 6 months of going from a 40 gallon tank to a 240 gallon tank... I still might not be able to spend as much time as I'd like with the tank during the summer, but each summer should be a little easier than the one before as I buy and add new equipment to automate the things I need to do manually currently... my two biggest problems right now as I see it is 1) I do not have a sink/drain in my fish room so I cannot automate water changes yet... I have the sink, I just need to run the plumbing from my utility room to the fish room to hook the drain up, then I can set up a 1-2% water change per day which would then eliminate my need for dosing and 2) the humidity issue, but with the sink drain getting plumbed I'll be able to run a drain from the dehumidifer to the sink so it doesn't fill the bucket up and stop running... and secondly I am planning to add glass tops to my tank to help reduce the humidity, then if I still think it is an issue I will eventually add an exhaust fan in the fish room to draw the moist air out of the fish room to the outdoors.

I also had an issue with the temperature of my tank this summer, so eventually I will probably need to add a chiller to my tank, but my house is still a work in progress too, so I might add some extra insulation which might help keep the house temps lower (or run the air conditioner in that room).

Nothing is in my way that is insurmountable... it just takes time and money, eventually I think I'll get it where I want it and have a pretty awesome tank... there are things slowing me down (last week my 75 gal sump started leaking so I had to drain it and redo plumbing to eliminate that tank until I decide if I really need to replace it or not, plus I've had a couple LED fixtures fail on me due to the moisture in the room, but I'm learning more and more about LED fixtures now as I fix them) so while there are bumps in the road I think it will be worth it in the end. Besides, part of my reason for the reef tank is that my wife prefers the marine life/corals more than freshwater... trying to get her to go scuba diving here in cold waters where all you are going to see are perch, blue gills, bass, catfish etc. with some green and yellow plants is a lot harder than trying to get her to go scuba diving in the warm water with reef critters, so my tank is meant to be a getaway to take us to a nice warm diving place while sitting in the family room...

Bump:


brandon429 said:


> when a reefbowl gets algae, you just blast it out with peroxide and move on while the other reefs struggle, easy!!


OH man... I read "blast it out with peroxide.." before I realized who it was... Brandon and his peroxide methods LOL didn't know you were on here =) been a while since I've been looking at the "how do I get rid of algae" threads so haven't seen you in a while...


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## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

its true im a broken record lol but we are up to about 200 documented pages now who could easily get off this fun train lol

a little peroxide helped my little planted rascal out too, the early stages of GHA were just zapped, the co2 upped, and voila lol nice to see ya on the fw side too


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## Ivan_M (Dec 9, 2015)

miogpsrocks said:


> Does anyone here have a reef(saltwater) tank in addition to a planted tank?


Neither is much at the moment, but yes, I have both.


miogpsrocks said:


> If so, what do you like better?


I am on the fence. Reefing is a novelty; planted, the opposite.


miogpsrocks said:


> Do you seem any similarities between the coral and plants?


My corals are primarily photosynthetic, so yes.


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## vision (Sep 29, 2015)

planted tanks calm me, where as reef is sometimes very jarring.

however, i really want an anemone tank.


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## fishhabit (Dec 10, 2015)

These days you can go low-tech on the reef. Live sand, live rock, good water flow, and the only extra equipment is a skimmer. As far as livestock they’re really not that much more expensive. Say you have a hi-tech planted tank with CO2 a school of Discus and some high quality LEDs you’re talking a lot of money. Build a nano reef with some low light corals, gobies, clownfish and some invertebrates the cost would be pretty low and look great.


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## rininger85 (Jun 30, 2013)

well the cost of fish is subjective... for freshwater fish I buy all of my fish at PetSmart, whereas for saltwater fish I buy all of my fish at Preuss Pets... Preuss quarantines all of their fish so their prices are a lot higher... but for saltwater I don't trust buying them from anyplace else, whereas for freshwater I'm not too concerned since I'm only spending a couple bucks for a fish vs. 30-100 bucks for a fish...


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## Fin2you (Nov 22, 2015)

OH MY GOSH SERIOUSLY??????????? NO PUMP OR FILTER?????? can you please explain how to me????????? Or do you have an old thread/diary you could point me too???? I have always wanted a salt water tank but been scared to set up a big massive tank that would cost us thousands of $! but I have a spare 5gal tank in the garage that would fit on my sofa table!!!!! 



brandon429 said:


> ive done only vase reefs for 15 yrs, this is my original vase glass and some of the corals are from 2001, but new rock as of 2006. They are very long lived, use no pumps or filters, they are just like a planted vase only a reef lol and require the typical work of topoff and water changes, but at 1 gallon its not really any work. they'll grow any coral you can fit into a vase, without all the complexities of typical reef tanks. they tend to live longer too than full sized reefs due to simplicity, except if you knock over the whole vase with your elbow=bad
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8zMWHAkJtM
> 
> to get build logs, just google vase reef build there are lots of them from various builders. These are the easiest and cheapest reefs one could own. Will outlive 95% of any sized home reef you put them up against...due to ease of access. When a giant reef gets algae, its hard to beat. when a reefbowl gets algae, you just blast it out with peroxide and move on while the other reefs struggle, easy!!


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## NotCousteau (Sep 25, 2014)

fishhabit said:


> These days you can go low-tech on the reef. Live sand, live rock, good water flow, and the only extra equipment is a skimmer. As far as livestock they?re really not that much more expensive. Say you have a hi-tech planted tank with CO2 a school of Discus and some high quality LEDs you?re talking a lot of money. Build a nano reef with some low light corals, gobies, clownfish and some invertebrates the cost would be pretty low and look great.


I completely agree with this. Even a basic marine setup with live rock, and different types of inverts is incredibly interesting and compelling. I like the look of my live rock so much that I don't want to cover it all up with corals.


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## Fin2you (Nov 22, 2015)

Raises hands jumping up & down squealing in delight..... So after reading this post I did some online research which led me to my local Kijiji site typing in SW Coral plugs & frags.... Ya I may have done a pkg deal 10lb live rock from his well established tank & a few frags. 
Yep I have joined the F.W. & S.W. group!!!!! I did buy Seachem Stability but gonna hold off on stocking this 5.5gal Nano reef Christmas is coming! & boxing week sales.


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## jboone82590 (Jul 4, 2015)

Nice I love my 29 gallon SW tank I have clown fish and some clown gobys and a clean up crew but I love the corals also 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

Bushkill said:


> Oh, the worrying about leaving it alone, was just one aspect. At the time, it really wasn't the driver.
> 
> I've already commented on the humidity issues from 600G of open-top tanks running. A de-humidifier would've been out of the question as electric rates climbed.
> 
> ...


My tank actually came with VHOs lol. Running 2 along side LEDs with 454s in them. Can't beat those 454s. Beautiful color, and those VHOs have a better color to them, even with daylights in them, then T5s or my LEDs.


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## cobra (Feb 4, 2005)

I've had numerous tanks of both.

Now I am FW planted only and even then my tank is high tech w/low light (lower maintenance factor).

Love reefing, however, it's expensive, time consuming, and the utility bill is at least double (lights, power heads, skimmer, UV, main pump, lots of water making, it all adds up). If you give the salties what they want, I actually find them easier to keep than some freshies. It's hard to beat the cool factor of a Yashi and Randall's shrimp combo!

Cheers!


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## Fin2you (Nov 22, 2015)

So my little nano 5gal me being happy with a few corals. Has spiralled.... Kids & husband needed to put in their 2 cents. Last night Hubby brings it up, so I said this tank is only big enough for the rock I have & 3 more corals no fish. He says screw that crap, Merry Christmas go get what is needed to atleast get each of the kids 1 of their fav. fish. Looking on local Kijiji I found a 40gal w/stand & filter (which probably will just get tossed) for $100, just waiting on dimensions to double check if it will fit in spot. If it is good to go I will get it today & started cycle it using much of what is in the 5 but will keep 1 small rock in there & use it as my quarantine.


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## juvinious (Jul 8, 2015)

For you reefers, there is going to be a sale on the 24" Finnex FugeRay Marine+ on amazon if you need to get one at 9pm EST. 
Amazon seems to have been pushing Finnex products out this week.


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## s_s (Feb 15, 2012)

Reefs just don't really intrigue me the way planted tanks do. 

I think it's the blue lights. I just don't really care about colors that only show up under blacklight. If I did I'd have a glofish tank by now. 

Mostly, I think reefs kinda seem to give off more of a zoo vibe than they seem like a real slice of nature. I hate that vibe with planted tanks, too, and it's one of the main things I actively try to avoid it.


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## rininger85 (Jun 30, 2013)

Fin2you said:


> OH MY GOSH SERIOUSLY??????????? NO PUMP OR FILTER?????? can you please explain how to me????????? Or do you have an old thread/diary you could point me too???? I have always wanted a salt water tank but been scared to set up a big massive tank that would cost us thousands of $! but I have a spare 5gal tank in the garage that would fit on my sofa table!!!!!


Saltwater tanks do not typically use filters because if we are trying to keep corals we want pretty low nitrates depending on what type of corals you want to keep. Fish don't care about nitrates much but once you get in to soft corals they are the most tolerant, then LPS likes a little less and by the time you get to SPS you should be keeping your nitrates between 0-5ppm, having a filter just causes nitrates to shoot up because they have high flow going over whatever waste gets trapped in the filter causing it to break down faster thus higher nitrates... really the live rock and a powerhead to create flow in the tank is what we use for filtration. The rock is able to house all the bacteria that freshwater tanks typically rely on living in filter floss etc. to convert ammonia to nitrite, nitrite to nitrate etc, thus no filter...



Fin2you said:


> Raises hands jumping up & down squealing in delight..... So after reading this post I did some online research which led me to my local Kijiji site typing in SW Coral plugs & frags.... Ya I may have done a pkg deal 10lb live rock from his well established tank & a few frags.
> Yep I have joined the F.W. & S.W. group!!!!! I did buy Seachem Stability but gonna hold off on stocking this 5.5gal Nano reef Christmas is coming! & boxing week sales.


It looks like you've already upgraded, but just a word of caution - the smaller the tank the harder it is to get started with saltwater. There is more cost in bigger tanks, but they are a lot more stable because it takes a lot more for the parameters to get out of whack... I started my salty adventure with a 10 gallon and had nothing but bad luck for the first year, then about time to give up I moved in to a 40B and it was so much easier to care for. I honestly think that a 40B is a perfect tank size to get started in saltwater / coral reef tanks because they are big enough to have a few different varieties of fish, and have enough water capacity to be somewhat forgiving as you learn the ropes.



Fin2you said:


> So my little nano 5gal me being happy with a few corals. Has spiralled.... Kids & husband needed to put in their 2 cents. Last night Hubby brings it up, so I said this tank is only big enough for the rock I have & 3 more corals no fish. He says screw that crap, Merry Christmas go get what is needed to atleast get each of the kids 1 of their fav. fish. Looking on local Kijiji I found a 40gal w/stand & filter (which probably will just get tossed) for $100, just waiting on dimensions to double check if it will fit in spot. If it is good to go I will get it today & started cycle it using much of what is in the 5 but will keep 1 small rock in there & use it as my quarantine.


be patient with cycling the tank before you add any corals or fish... only bad things happen fast with saltwater tanks, everything else is slooooooowwww if you want it to be good.

Bump:


s_s said:


> Reefs just don't really intrigue me the way planted tanks do.
> 
> I think it's the blue lights. I just don't really care about colors that only show up under blacklight. If I did I'd have a glofish tank by now.
> 
> Mostly, I think reefs kinda seem to give off more of a zoo vibe than they seem like a real slice of nature. I hate that vibe with planted tanks, too, and it's one of the main things I actively try to avoid it.


go scuba dive some reefs in the wild and it might change your appreciation of them =) I don't dive saltwater nearly as much as I dive freshwater since I live in Michigan, but it is definitely diving that got me interested in coral tanks. Mine is really a way to supplement my want to dive reefs since I can't afford dive trips as often as I'd like, but having the reef tank also makes me want to dive more... they are both expensive hobbies that supplement each other and make me want more of each. I have an appreciation for both environments because of my diving. I like the saltwater fish better because there is more variety that I've seen in nature, but in reef tanks I'm more intrigued by all of the small things that happen in a reef even though I did go with the 240 gal just to be able to house the hippo tang / powder blue tang/ yellow tang combination that I wanted... they are pretty fish but there is so much more to look at in reef tanks that are tiny that most people never notice.


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## Fin2you (Nov 22, 2015)

my Christmas present from my husband & my kids is cycling in my family room  it is the 40gal & I am over the moon excited. & the kids will be extremely excited b/c my little 5.5 gal is hidden at my office with a baby black clownfish. I kid you not he's smaller than 1/2 my pinky finger.
I am going to set up a new thread as I fear that the powerhead output is too crazy for "Lil'Nemo". the tank came with a Aquaclear 300 pump which I am running with just Seachem's Matrix stones in a bag in the compartment & with what you're saying I don't need it? That would rock b/c it's loud & obnoxious! 
Would you mind if I picked your SW brain more? Should we do it "openly" like if I made another post so other people can read/learn/chime in or would it be better private messaging??? I'm so excited that this life long dream is coming true!


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## redranger (Dec 13, 2015)

Fin2you said:


> So my little nano 5gal me being happy with a few corals. Has spiralled.... Kids & husband needed to put in their 2 cents. Last night Hubby brings it up, so I said this tank is only big enough for the rock I have & 3 more corals no fish. He says screw that crap, Merry Christmas go get what is needed to atleast get each of the kids 1 of their fav. fish. Looking on local Kijiji I found a 40gal w/stand & filter (which probably will just get tossed) for $100, just waiting on dimensions to double check if it will fit in spot. If it is good to go I will get it today & started cycle it using much of what is in the 5 but will keep 1 small rock in there & use it as my quarantine.


I am also planning on a Salt water in a 40 gallon. The 40 gallon seems to be the perfect size for a beginner to try salt water on. I know other people who are also starting out on a 40 gallon. 

My 40 gallon is a breeder aquarium and a lot wider then a normal aquarium so you can add cool effects going back far in the tank. Both for freshwater and Saltwater. 

I would love to hear about your experiences trying the saltwater. 

Thanks.


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## MrFishTank5372 (Dec 18, 2015)

can one start a SW tank with a 10g tank?


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## redranger (Dec 13, 2015)

MrFishTank5372 said:


> can one start a SW tank with a 10g tank?


I think so but you might have to go light on the fish and the water chemistry is more unable on smaller tanks. 

You might need to still have a protein skimmer which usually are good for like 10 gallons to 40 gallons as well as some kind of auto top off system to replace evaporated water so the salinity does not increase too much. 

Are you thinking Fish only or also corals? 

I think if its fish only then its easier. 

its often referred to as FOLR( Fish only live rock) the "live rock" is like peaces of dead coral that water passes by to act as the biological filtration for the tank.

Bump:


jboone82590 said:


> Nice I love my 29 gallon SW tank I have clown fish and some clown gobys and a clean up crew but I love the corals also
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


Nice!! do you have pictures?


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## Fin2you (Nov 22, 2015)

so I made a post on the forum help page asking which would be better to possibly set up a salt water forum or if we should do it as a journal idea. I don't want to step on any toes as yes there are other forums dedicated to SW but this group is so friendly & wonderful I don't want to spend time on other forums! (I only have so much computer time in a day LOL) 
But so far my new tank is coming along nicely it's still a bit cloudy from set up but I'm starting it using Seachem's recommended cycling method. Prime to decorinate water & Stability. I will post everything in the new thread!


redranger said:


> I am also planning on a Salt water in a 40 gallon. The 40 gallon seems to be the perfect size for a beginner to try salt water on. I know other people who are also starting out on a 40 gallon.
> 
> My 40 gallon is a breeder aquarium and a lot wider then a normal aquarium so you can add cool effects going back far in the tank. Both for freshwater and Saltwater.
> 
> ...


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## bpb (Mar 8, 2011)

Some good responses on here. There's alot of saltwater experience it looks like, and lots of folks that bailed as soon as alot of the trendy aquaculturists became a thing, and leds took over the crown of the lighting world (from a sales standpoint anyway).

I'm like many, started off with a fish tank, then graduated to a planted tank, then graduated to a FOWLR saltwater tank, then to a reef tank. it's a natural progression.

Generally speaking, reef tanks will ultimately be alot more expensive. Organism for organism the salty ones just flat out cost more. Even the nicest and rarest of plants, generally only cost about as much as middle of the road corals. And while you may find some monster tank sized fish and stingrays, or certain discus, that cost into the hundreds, it's common place for alot of reef fish to cost alot more than that, even some nano tank sized fish. 

It CAN be cheap to start up a saltwater tank, but on a long enough timeline, it generally becomes more expensive.

I think cost aside the biggest challenge for a long time planted tank keeper, who decides to try their hand at coral keeping, is the patience of it. I've known many many many expert level planted tank keepers that struggle mightily with saltwater tanks and coral keeping. Not because they lack the skills or intelligence, but they lack the patience. Even the easiest of soft corals will appreciate a mature tank. 

Algae is another big deterrent for crossover hobbyists. In a planted tank, algae means you have a problem and it can be corrected easily, often overnight, without any detriment to anything else in the tank. In saltwater tank, algae doesnt mean you have a problem, but that is hard to grasp. Algae is a massive portion of the overall biomass and food chain on a natural reef. It is REALLY REALLY good at surviving and thriving in ALL conditions. A young saltwater tank will have several tank wide hideous looking algae blooms 99% of the time, over the first year. If you happen to avoid them...you either used very high quality and mature live rock (like the above mentioned TBS rock), or you are running your tank in the dark. Algae happens, and you have to just accept it and keep up with solid husbandry and it will be gone all on its own with moderate intervention.

The maturation process of a reef tank is infintely more complex as well. You don't have to really do anything but wait, no gear to buy or science to perform for your tank to mature, just time and patience. You're not just trying to let your filter media colonize with nitrifying bacteria. You're trying to get your rocks and sand to colonize with nitrifying bacteria, develop beneficial anaerobic zones for DEnitrifying bacteria, build up naturally breeding populations of phytoplankton, zooplankton, copepods, amphipods, and hundreds of species of sessile invertebrates, dozens and dozens of species of macro and micro algae and biofilm to colonize the rocks and sand, to ultimately form a food chain that goes from microscopic, up to fish sized. That takes months and months longer than just having a mature filter media. That process is what alot of new hobbyists get hung up on and ultimately really discouraged about. 

If I have no ammonia, and my tank is now 6 weeks old, why are my corals dying and why do I have ugly green hair algae and cyanobacteria everywhere....Well...because that's what happens, that's the process. 

Once you've done it a few times and have your gear and maintenance regiment in place, you can manage a new tank with corals because you'll know what to look for and what to provide for them while a tank is still in its infancy, but I can tell you, a mature tank that has been running a couple years is WAY more forgiving than a brand new one. Any of you aquarists looking to jump into the reef side please keep that in mind. In a planted tank, you can set it up and have it looking spectacular...contest winning, in a matter of days. As long as you start with enough plant mass. It just doesnt work like that in a reef tank. 

Those are just my thoughts. I'm not an expert, but these musings have been my own personal experience. I currently run a 75 gallon dutch inspired planted tank, that has had it's ups and downs and generally looks "ok" right now. It's 7 months old roughly, but i've had this same tank and done probably a dozen tear down and rebuilds since 2007. I also have a 90 gallon reef with 40 gallon sump that I run which is about 1.5 years old. Previously I had a smaller tank that ran for a few years. I havent been in the hobby for decades like some on here, but long enough to "get" the differences between the two sides of the hobby.


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## Marty.h (Dec 20, 2015)

I have a full reef tank myself at present started with soft corals and moved onto LPS and I now mainly have SPS all softies bern removed and trust me when I say each jump to each type means a considerable jump in ££££ not only for the stock but also in equipment and as said in last post there is little room for error and does take a fair bit of my time up.

For example my system 6x2x2 with a 4ft sump and all equipment and stock is at nearly £9000 and generally goes up monthly that's why I'm now at the point of thinking of converting back to freshwater and planted as no fun keep spending and going backwards

Ontop of that you have running costs on a full reef , electric, dosing chemicals , media like carbon and phosphate remover , fish food budget £200 a month at least it is honestly very expensive when you go large.


I currently have whitespot in my marine system you think it's bad in freshwater it's nothing compared to dealing with it in a full reef it's an absolute ball ache to deal with I've been fallow twice for 12 weeks each time with all fish in QT but it still rared it's ugly head back up and I've had just about enough of it as it's no fun pulling a reef apart to catch all the fish.

All I will say is good luck those thinking of having a full reef and I hope you have deep pockets and an understanding wife.


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## rininger85 (Jun 30, 2013)

Fin2you said:


> Would you mind if I picked your SW brain more? Should we do it "openly" like if I made another post so other people can read/learn/chime in or would it be better private messaging??? I'm so excited that this life long dream is coming true!


post a link to your new thread and I'll jump in and help when I can



MrFishTank5372 said:


> can one start a SW tank with a 10g tank?


You can, but honestly I would not recommend it... I highly recommend picking up a 40 breeder tank just from my personal experience it was a lot easier to learn once I jumped up to my 40B rather than my 10 gal... I started with a 10 gal thinking it would be cheaper, but there is a lot to consider with saltwater tanks and the more water capacity you have the more forgiving it is... so I ran my 10 gal for about 11 months before I upgraded because I had dumped so much money down the drain killing things in the 10 gallon tank because I hadn't invested the money in ATO's and such, and with a 10 gal tank you probably only have about 7 gallons of water by the time you add rock and sand and whatnot, so they are not very forgiving when you make a mistake, parameters change QUICKLY and like I said before... the only things that happen QUICKLY in saltwater is BAD things... a 40B gives a good size tank to learn, it gives you a better size for adding fish, and makes it a lot easier to add corals and give them what they want.

With my 10 gallon tank I could not get the flow right so my corals were never happy, then most fish aren't really happy in that small of a tank, they quickly outgrow it... if you want to really give it a shot and don't want to just flush money down the drain I'd skip the 10 gal until you know what you are doing, then if you decide you are up to the challenge you could create a 10 gal... they have nano build competitions in 10 gal tanks but you really need to know your stuff before you go into smaller tanks.


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## rininger85 (Jun 30, 2013)

Marty.h said:


> I currently have whitespot in my marine system you think it's bad in freshwater it's nothing compared to dealing with it in a full reef it's an absolute ball ache to deal with I've been fallow twice for 12 weeks each time with all fish in QT but it still rared it's ugly head back up and I've had just about enough of it as it's no fun pulling a reef apart to catch all the fish.


marine ich isn't as bad as most people make it out to be... but most people also read the same book that said you have to QT everything and have to treat to get rid of it etc. I read a different book but won't go in to details here, but just a summary, it all comes down to creating a low stress, healthy environment in which you feed good quality food. The problem is that most people don't research enough and do things they shouldn't. 

1) Low stress = making the fish comfortable, that means if you want a peaceful tank you don't add aggressive fish that are going to beat up the peaceful fish. This also means you don't put fish in a tank smaller than what they should be in... I highly recommend following Liveaquaria's minimum tank size recommendations but most people think they have to have the big tangs to make it look like a saltwater tank... but they can't afford a big enough tank for the tangs to live in so they are stressed out and get ich, then since they are never NOT stressed they die because they can't fight off the ich.
2) good quality food - that means you are NOT going to feed saltwater fish flakes even though the bottle says "marine flakes"... these are not good quality foods and will not result in healthy fish. Pellets are really no better than flakes although I do still feed some pellets that way they have some sort of food that can be fed through an auto feeder when I'm away... but I mostly feed LIVE blackworms or freshly hatched baby brine shrimp, or blender mush that I make myself with a different variety of WHOLE foods for fish (shrimp, oysters, clams, real crab, with some peas or other green veggies mixed in). Feeding flakes or pellets is like eating McDonalds every day for every meal... can you do it and survive? Well yeah, but you probably aren't going to be very healthy...

Really those two things sum it up, low stress and good food and your fish will be healthy and you won't need to worry about marine ich or any other types of fungal or bacterial issues... the fish will be healthy enough to overcome anything they get on their own without your help.


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## Marty.h (Dec 20, 2015)

My tank is 6x2x2 so have plenty of space for the tangs and it is a low stress environment.

I feed

Pellets 4 different types and sizes
Nori Green and red sea weed
PE mysis 
Live shrimp
Flake
Brinshrimp 
Mussel

And I still got issues I also run Ozone and a UV


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

Marty.h said:


> I have a full reef tank myself at present started with soft corals and moved onto LPS and I now mainly have SPS all softies bern removed and trust me when I say each jump to each type means a considerable jump in ££££ not only for the stock but also in equipment and as said in last post there is little room for error and does take a fair bit of my time up.
> 
> For example my system 6x2x2 with a 4ft sump and all equipment and stock is at nearly £9000 and generally goes up monthly that's why I'm now at the point of thinking of converting back to freshwater and planted as no fun keep spending and going backwards
> 
> ...





Marty.h said:


> My tank is 6x2x2 so have plenty of space for the tangs and it is a low stress environment.
> 
> I feed
> 
> ...


If your still having issues, you should really take this up on a reef forum, where there are a lot of people that can really help you out. 

There isn't too much detail here, but it looks like you system seems to have just about every filtration known to man on it. I suspect you have way over loaded the system with equipment, thinking that your going to fix the problem that way. You may find less gear will give you better results.

I also notice that your running ozone and UV on the same system. This is very unusual on a reef, and in some cases counter productive. 

The diet your feeding with "Pellets 4 different types and sizes", Flake, and Brineshrimp sounds very poor. Many reef keepers don't feed dry foods at all, or use it only one a week or so. Brineshrimp is something a lot of fish love, but it's a poor food. 

This really isn't the forum or thread to get into a long involved discussion about your system, so if you want to talk more about this your welcome to PM me.


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## Fin2you (Nov 22, 2015)

It's in the tank journals forum. "diving into a change of pace (a journey to the SW side)".


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## Marty.h (Dec 20, 2015)

DaveK said:


> If your still having issues, you should really take this up on a reef forum, where there are a lot of people that can really help you out.
> 
> There isn't too much detail here, but it looks like you system seems to have just about every filtration known to man on it. I suspect you have way over loaded the system with equipment, thinking that your going to fix the problem that way. You may find less gear will give you better results.
> 
> ...


I was merely replying to the above post that whitespot is a complete pain I was not asking for help or advice here regarding the issues so don't understand why there was that comment.

Running Ozone and a UV is common practice on a reef ozone is used to control ORP levels and water clarity and as I have the UV setup with a very slow flow it's there to kill pathogens so technically they doing different jobs.

As for the diet being poor the tangs are all around 1" thick so they hardly wasting away or starving.

I was merely pointing out an issue that can be a pain as this is a discussion about reef tanks is it not and simply mentioned my own personal experience and system as an example ill stay out of future discussions then !!


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## bpb (Mar 8, 2011)

Wrong thread


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

Marty.h said:


> I was merely replying to the above post that whitespot is a complete pain I was not asking for help or advice here regarding the issues so don't understand why there was that comment.
> ...


Let me explain, when you make a post telling everyone about your system and saying you have problems, it's easily taken as a request for help. I just felt you possibly had several things wrong and I might be able to help. I'm sorry you took my post the wrong way.


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## Marty.h (Dec 20, 2015)

That's fine I would not ask here for the simple reason is its not a marine or reef forum it's freshwater and planted I joined up looking for advice on a planted system


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## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

Sick update of dual kessils one for marine one for FW 

This marks the first time either a marine system or FW system of mine online wasn't using power compacts. Wt am I about four years late on the switch

Kessil rocks on the lowest setting they are all the light this half gallon sealed planted tank needs or the 1 gallon reef bowl

Bump:


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## shift (Jan 7, 2013)

Sure do. One of each


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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

bump


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## shift (Jan 7, 2013)

Bumpity bump
Eh? Haha I have a bigger tank now since my last post!










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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

@shift beautiful tank. Im not a saltwater guy so cut me some slack when I ask this, how fast do those corals you have grow? not each individual coral but in a nutshell.


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## bpb (Mar 8, 2011)

Sharing mine as well. 90 gallon reef tank










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## bpb (Mar 8, 2011)

I can't speak for @shift, but pricing and speed of growth are absolutely all over the map. Both from an average value standpoint, and individual vendor price points. There are some corals that can fetch $40 for a small nub from one online vendor, but most hobbyists with any experience consider them a nuisance or a pest and can't even GIVE them away in good conscience. Some rarer pieces can fetch thousands of dollars for something the size of a thumbnail. The pricing of things is largely dependent on WHO is selling it more than what it is. It's almost always cheaper to buy from other local hobbyists than it is to purchase from an actual coral aquaculture facility...but spending extra from a place like that does have its perks. You get something grown under perfect conditions for years in captivity with a virtual guarantee of no pests. Pests can destroy an entire tank and cost thousands in the blink of an eye so they're definitely something to be mindful of. 

Growth rates are also entirely dependent on species and environment. Some things grow about as fast as a co2 driven high light stem plant. Others take years to put on a couple inches of growth. Just depends on species and environment. As far as my own tank goes the most I've paid for a single coral specimen is $100. Lots of freebies too. I'd say my tanks average coral value from what I paid is about $40-50 a specimen I guess. But I also bought most from other hobbyists. Retail market typically demands 2-3x what the hobbyist market charges 

Couple examples of notoriously high priced stuff. Bounce mushrooms. 









The legendary beach bum montipora. 









Last one here is kind of a joke. He basically listed that price because it's essentially not for sale. He states in the ad that he's not selling it, but if someone wanted to make him a millionaire he would deliver it to you personally. A fairly widely known joke in the reef community. 








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## traderbren (Aug 18, 2008)

I started out with a nano reef years ago. My husband had a 100 gallon reef tank. I found for my smaller tank maintenance was just a bit much for me, plus we were splitting all our resources between the 2 tanks. I broke mine down and added everything to his tank, and started up my planted tank. No regrets on my part.

When we moved, we had to spend 6 months in a small apartment in between houses due to the house we wanted being a short sale and not settling fast enough. (It actually never settled; we found another house and after 8 months of waiting on that short sale, we were moved into the new house in less than 5 weeks.) We took both tanks down and gave away all the plants and fish.

I just recently started my planted tank back up. Hubs is also starting his reef tank back up. He no longer has the 100 gallon. He has a 30-ish gallon Cardiff (it replaced the Solana he had bought that leaked). My tank is already flourishing, while he is waiting on cycle from the live rock and sand before adding any fish or corals. My lights were cheaper, although his are much fancier and have lunar cycles, thunderstorm modes, sunrise and sunset, etc. His are also much brighter.

We were able to use a lot of the old live rock that we had in storage, and just seed it with fresh live rock from That Pet Place (our closest store at about an hour away). He has a shipment coming today from Amazon with a new protein skimmer, wave maker, auto top off parts, and a few other things. He spent about $350 on this alone. The LED light from China was $200-ish I think. SW is definitely much more expensive, just from a start up point of view, not to mention the corals and fish.

Which do I like better? To maintain and for almost instant satisfaction, mine. For sheer beauty and staring at, his. Each little bit of coral or live rock has the potential to have cool little hitchhikers or mushrooms or sponges hiding in them. I used to be able to stare at his old tank for hours watching all the little crabs and starfish move around.


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