# ADA Leak



## boink (Nov 27, 2006)

I was wondering if anyone has experienced any leaks with an ADA tank? The silicon on the 120-P started pulling apart. Below is a picture of the top front right corner.










Right now i have drained the tank half way and using it for a shrimp tank. Has anyone ever fixed an ADA tank? Id like to fix this and be able to fill it up all the way without worrying it will leak.

Thoughts?


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

Wow, that stinks. What do you have the tank on?


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Eeep! Was your tank out of level in any direction before this happened, even just slightly?


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## gabeszone247 (Jul 8, 2006)

Yes, this happens to all the ADA 90-120 tanks after 5-7 years, and its the reason I went back to all rim tanks. I love the ADA tanks but the fact is that they go bad after 5-7 years is bad!

My friend here in Japan owns an Aquarium shop and now has had 6 tanks go bad. I would stick to the rim tanks.


Gabe.



P.S. please do not try and tell me im wrong as most people living in the US have not owned an ADA tank more than 3 years yet.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

or if u want rimless, just eurobrace i suppose


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## gabeszone247 (Jul 8, 2006)

Also ADA had made the guarantee from 5 years down to 2-3 years I believe, and I wonder why? How many years did you have your tank Boink?


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## boink (Nov 27, 2006)

I belive 2 years I had the 120 P up. The tank was sitting on a DIY 3/4" birch stand with the ADA foam under it.


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## gabeszone247 (Jul 8, 2006)

Did you start to see white little patches in the silicon before it broke? My tank has little white patches, and hear this is how it starts. I hear under 90cm tanks made by ADA are fine and last longer without leaks.


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## boink (Nov 27, 2006)

Yea, the white spot on the pic is where the silicon separated from the glass. I had marked the spot with tape when i first saw it and gradually it started expanding till it reached that pic (taken 4 months ago?). Shame...

Anyway, anyone have a fix? Pull apart the front panel and try to resilicon it?


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

That's probably the only option, _a lot_ of work, but given the cost of the tank, more worthwhile than if it were a regular AGA or Perfecto. If you should happen to do that, you need to make sure you get the proper silicone, the ordinary commercially available stuff isn't going to cut it. Scolley has a 75 gallon build thread, it's good reading on the subject.


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

Wow that sucks. But for such tiny silicone seams and the seams being under such stress especially once you get to a certain size, I could see that happen. Especially even if it was just slightly out of level would put alot of undue pressure on a single seam. Guess that is what I love about the Mini Series.


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## gabeszone247 (Jul 8, 2006)

Yeah it really sucks because I wanted a 120-p so bad!


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

I bet if he resealed it and euro braced it it would eliminate the problem wouldn't be completely rimless though. 

How this is the glass boink?

I know the new ADA Mini M is 5mm seems abit overkill but there is no room for flex at that thickness it seems.

Craig


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## Jens (Apr 21, 2006)

That stinks, if you still have warranty get it replaced. It is a lot of work to fix it yourself. 

otherwise:

I fixed a leaking 90G custom rimless a while ago. You have to remove the glass panel completely and remove ALL the old silicon. I used following silicon Perennator AQ201

So far so good for 1.5 years now. Knock on wood.

prep work done









silicon applied









panel moved back in place









But it is close to impossible to match the clean silicon work of ADA.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Considering the cost of ADA tanks, I would expect them to fix or replace it for you. Have you tried contacting [email protected] to see what he can do for you?


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## aquanut415 (Jan 21, 2006)

ianiwane had the same problem with his 120P, he got rid of it before it failed. the silicone on my 90P looks fine, as well as my 60P after a few years.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Interesting thread. You're right, gabeszone, I don't know anyone who has had an ADA tank setup for 7 years. My 90p is 2 years old, and looks fine. But, this information is useful, and I'll be sure to keep an eye on it. 

Truth is that I like the frameless tanks so much that if I had to buy a new one every 5 years, I'd do it.


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## thief (Jan 12, 2008)

Wow pretty seroius stuff your dealing with.
Thanks a lot for the info Gabe I had no idea. I have no idea where to start on how to fix but I don't think I will be getting a 120-P tank! I have room for a 90-P though anyone have exp with this? As I would hate to find out a couple years after it is ready to fall apart!


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## gabeszone247 (Jul 8, 2006)

I can send you some pics of my 90p getting the white bubbles in the silicon. I had my tank now for 2 years or so. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/tank-journals-photo-album/34556-ada-90cm-updated-pictures-01-07-a.html


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

boink said:


> I belive 2 years I had the 120 P up. The tank was sitting on a DIY 3/4" birch stand with the ADA foam under it.


I know how to fix these, but if you want long term, you need to go with extra thick glass and over build it. Either that and/or a mix of bracing and angels added at the seams. Cost much less and weighs less, easy to handle thin glass, but over time, the seams can pull apart.

500$ tank and that's what you end up with?
Even the 180's do this from what I've seen.

They need thicker glass and or bracing, perhaps another thicker layer of silicone, but that would look uglier.

No way around that.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

aquanut415 said:


> ianiwane had the same problem with his 120P, he got rid of it before it failed. the silicone on my 90P looks fine, as well as my 60P after a few years.


Yea, we talked about that at the SF meeting.
The GC tanks don't have this issue, I can see a little bit on the 120 Gal I have, but I can do repair work myself if need be, does not look like it will be anytime soon, the tank's at AF are also good guinea pigs, the 180 in the front you can see the stress bubbles, that's fine, but what this poor sucker had here was not right!

Darn thing leaked.

I've modified tanks many times over the years and all my tanks are rimless.
I've not had any such issues however, there's some stress on one tank, the 180 Gal GC is over built and have sloppy glue, but it's not going anywhere for a long time.

The 20 Gal I have lasted 20 years as a rimless.
Once you get to 4-6ft etc, then it becomes a challenge.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## boink (Nov 27, 2006)

Hoppy said:


> Considering the cost of ADA tanks, I would expect them to fix or replace it for you. Have you tried contacting [email protected] to see what he can do for you?


Well this was the first thing i did. The ADA warranty does not really carry much weight--at least that what it seemed like to me. For the warranty to be valid you have to use the ADA stand (and i presume the ADA mat). From the pictures I sent Jeff, he could not conclude that the silicon peeling away was from a manufacturer defect.

The options I had were:

1) Ship the tank to him for closer inspection. The cost would not be covered by the warranty, and neither is the return shipping of the existing tank or a warranty replacement, should one be determined warranted.

2) New tank at cost of shipping after alot of emails back and forth.

Jeff handled this as well as he could i suppose. Just sucks that shipping isnt cheap.


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

plantbrain said:


> They need thicker glass and or bracing, perhaps another thicker layer of silicone


They have started making their tanks with thicker glass, such as 5 mm glass on the 30c and mini m instead of 4 mm, which are the ones that I have personally experienced. I don't know how much thicker the new 120P-90P-180P's are but maybe this is partially in response to this problem? The thicker glass does mean that there is a larger contact area for the silicone...


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## boink (Nov 27, 2006)

I think the deflection on the 120-P is one of the big reasons that the silicone starts peeling out. Gabe, from the tank that leaked, was it failing from the inside out?


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

So you were offered a new tank for the cost of shipping?


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## gabeszone247 (Jul 8, 2006)

My friend here in Japan called ADA and they said the same thing about you have to have the tank on an ADA stand and mat to get a replacement. The new ADA tanks are made with 10mm glass instead of the 8mm for the 90-120p, and should last longer.

I think you should tell the ADA dealer in America to write on the package of the box about having a ADA stand and mat to get a replacement, if it was not stated you should be able to get a new tank, for not stating all the information on the guarantee.


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

Even all american made AGA, Marineland, Perfect etc, can refuse there warranties if its not installed on one of their stands. Most US tanks have 5-10yr warranties. That is the problem of fine print.

Craig


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## BradH (May 15, 2008)

gabeszone247 said:


> I can send you some pics of my 90p getting the white bubbles in the silicon. I had my tank now for 2 years or so. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/tank-journals-photo-album/34556-ada-90cm-updated-pictures-01-07-a.html



OK now I'm paranoid, when you say bubbles in the silicone. Can you post a picture? My tank has bubbles in the silicone and I'm starting to wonder now.


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## Jens (Apr 21, 2006)

plantbrain said:


> Yea, we talked about that at the SF meeting.
> The GC tanks don't have this issue, I can see a little bit on the 120 Gal I have, but I can do repair work myself if need be, does not look like it will be anytime soon, the tank's at AF are also good guinea pigs, the 180 in the front you can see the stress bubbles, that's fine, but what this poor sucker had here was not right!
> 
> I've not had any such issues however, there's some stress on one tank, the 180 Gal GC is over built and have sloppy glue, but it's not going anywhere for a long time.


Whoa, Tom. Now pro GC again. GC does not have a very good track record of building leak free tank either. They do build rimless maybe for the last 2 years and sloppy silicon would not give me any confidence in longterm stability either. The key in building quality tank is clean glass otherwise the bond of the silicon seam will fail over time. 



gabeszone247 said:


> My friend here in Japan called ADA


Are we talking about a single friend and incident here, Gabe? Or do you have first hand knowledge of more one?



The specs of the ADA tanks are on the edge for the glass thickness. But that is more a concern for the bowing than a failing seams. I got back report from 90+G tanks lasting well over 10 year (and still running) from Germany. 

But who knows, maybe American wood houses and earthquakes ain't good for rimless tanks


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## thief (Jan 12, 2008)

Gabe thanks you for informing me of how your 90-P turned out I wonder with there newer type tanks out does it make a difference?

Anyways I still plan to order a 90-P sooner or later. If the problem does come I assure you I will fix it myself or a local Tank maker here on the east coast!

But I would like to see the pics not that I don't believe you just want to know what to look for later on!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Jens said:


> Whoa, Tom. Now pro GC again. GC does not have a very good track record of building leak free tank either. They do build rimless maybe for the last 2 years and sloppy silicon would not give me any confidence in longterm stability either. The key in building quality tank is clean glass otherwise the bond of the silicon seam will fail over time.


No, I'm not pro GC, the opposite, however, they are holding up and have thicker glass. They just did a slop job, but overkill, which is good here with this issue, they will last.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## gabeszone247 (Jul 8, 2006)

Ok, here are three tanks at one shop, and many other people here in Japan are having the same problem. First picture is a ADA 120-P going on 5 years and has lots of bubbles in the Silicone. Its still up and running, but soon will leak as this is onc of the signs before leaking.


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## gabeszone247 (Jul 8, 2006)

Here are some pictures of an ADA 120-p 6 years old didn't show any bubbles, and just started leaking again from the top corners all four of them.


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## gabeszone247 (Jul 8, 2006)

Here's an ADA 90-p that bit the dust last week after 3 years. It had the bubble in the silicon.

















The problem is when I bought my new ADA 90-p it didn't have any *fine print* stating I had to have it on an ADA stand with a ADA Garden mat, so I think that ADA should offer a replacement if its under its 5 year garantee!


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## Jens (Apr 21, 2006)

Thanks for the pictures, Gabe. Anyway, there is quite some pressure to endure on the top edge. ADA tanks can fail, oversized custom tanks can fail. My tank is using 1/2" glass for 90G (~400Liter) and did fail after 6 months in use for the previous owner. I redid the silicon and the tank is fine for the last 1.5 years. 

BTW, the bubbles in the silicon aren't an indication for a failure. Those bubbles are enclosed in the silicon and don't weaken the bond from the silicon to the glass. They are there from the very beginning.


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## gabeszone247 (Jul 8, 2006)

Anyways I was wrong about the new specs on the 90-p 120-p. Instead of 8mm thick glass its going to be 12mm.


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## dr.tran (Oct 8, 2007)

OMG!!! Thanks for bringing this up. I might skip the 120p. Craig could u chime in, how is ur 120p. I know u had it for a while.


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

Well they are almost doubling the glass thickness. I think that that should help a LOT


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Jens said:


> oversized custom tanks can fail. My tank is using 1/2" glass for 90G (~400Liter) and did fail after 6 months in use for the previous owner. I redid the silicon and the tank is fine for the last 1.5 years.
> 
> BTW, the bubbles in the silicon aren't an indication for a failure. Those bubbles are enclosed in the silicon and don't weaken the bond from the silicon to the glass. They are there from the very beginning.


Yes, oversized glass will save you, but the small bubbles shown above are fine, perhaps "normal", the larger bubbles are certainly not.

If you had used 5/8th" glass, or 3/4" and then more silicone on the seams rather than the cleaner look, then there's no issue.

It should last for 10-20 years easy.

When you go thinner to reduce cost, and also go thinner and less gap filling with silicone, then you get issues like this. That's the trade off for clean look and $ saving and weight saving on thinner glass. Not bad if you do not pay much for them, but ADA tanks are hardly cheap............so..........

You also need to wait 3 weeks for adding water after a larger tank is made to allow the silicone to fully cure 100%.

Adding a triangle bracing alone the seams can help and look better than the silicone over slop. Say an 3/8" glass slat. This adds greatly to the bond strength. But then you lose that nice clean edge with 3/8" extra glass seal.
There's the trade off there. Top bracing helps some, but most for bowing of thin glass along the longer distances, less so for the corners.

12mm is okay I guess, if they feel that confident, then perhaps a longer warranty is in order, put your warranty where your mouth is. At 48", I think 5/8" is a min thickness.

15-16mm is better.
Cost more, weighs more, but what the heck?
You spend this much, you ought to get something that will last and look good.

12 mm is a hair under 1/2" which is the bare min IME/IMO.

Go with a custom builder, get 15mm-16mm and then you will not worry.

For less than 48", the 12 mm is likely okay, I'd still go with 13-14mm at 36" long, for 24" 1/2" is fine for any shape(cube).

If these suckers had design flaws based on using too thin glass, and poor seals, they should owe up to it.

That's not a warranty issue, that's their own fault. Recall the tanks with issues and fix them or offer a very reduce rate on a new tank.

That's baloney.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

When the glass bows out on a long tank, it acts as a lever to break the silicone bond at the top corner. The glass pivots about the outer edge, trying to rip loose the inner edge. The secret would be to keep the glass thick enough to have an imperceptable bow with water in it. Or, reinforce that joint as Tom noted. I'm disappointed in ADA. I don't object to their charging a premium price for the premium quality of their tanks, but what goes along with that premium price should be accepting responsibility for design flaws that might appear. And, this is certainly a design flaw.


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

Hoppy on that note I think they are trying to fix the problem by going with thicker glass.

I had 2 Mini M purchased about a month apart. One was the older 4mm glass the other a newer style with 5mm thick.

I think they know that they have a problem and are remeding it by using thicker glass. 

I think they will be like Marineland/ Perfecto, AGA, etc that require there tanks to be on there stands in order to offer the warranty otherwise it is void. AGA and Perfect are the same. Perfecto offers a 10 yr warranty as long as you use there stand.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Yes, but ADA charges much more for their tanks than others do, so they should go the extra mile to show that paying that extra price is worth doing. Right now I don't believe it is worth it. They are making their past customers into guinea pigs for their benefit.


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

Hoppy said:


> Yes, but ADA charges much more for their tanks than others do, so they should go the extra mile to show that paying that extra price is worth doing. Right now I don't believe it is worth it. They are making their past customers into guinea pigs for their benefit.


 
I wonder how much the freight of bringing them over to the US affects the price. Maybe Gabe can tell us what they cost over in Japan.

I'm sure AGA and Perfecto used people in the begining for guinea pigs also. Most companies do as its there only way of testing. Some Beta test some just like the X Box 360 jsut get tossed into the market and they chase the problems afterwords. X Box still has issues with there machines but they still sell lots of them. Also being the tanks I believe are probably made in Germany according to this info on the tanks from the AFA site:

Each tank is hand built by German craftsman carefully under very strict quality control. 

Unless they brought alot of Germans in to build them in Japan. They out source there work and due to that not all may be up to par.

I'm not trying to defend them completely but If you are willing to spend the money on the tank you may as well make sure the warranty will be covered even if you have to buy the stand.

Sure my Mini M won't be covered with my ADA look alike stand jsut a risk I take. For a 5.15g tank I spent alot could have bought 8-10 AGA 5.5 locally but the looks and quality are better than any tank I've seen locally.

Craig


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

Oh yeah ADA can be contacted here for direct support:

http://www.adana.co.jp/_e_support/


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## jeepn4x4 (Jan 27, 2008)

Wow that stinks about your tanks leaking. I think it is a very weak argument on the side of manufactures to require you to use their stands. It is just a way for them to cope out. Personally I think their (ADA) tanks look awesome but their stands I dislike. Correcting the problem is great but they should offer something to current customers who have problems and have a tank that is still under warranty. It would be like Chevy saying that their 2008 line of trucks have bad brakes but don't worry we fixed them for 2009 models and we won't fix the 2008's. Just my thoughts on it.


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

jeepn4x4 said:


> It would be like Chevy saying that their 2008 line of trucks have bad brakes but don't worry we fixed them for 2009 models and we won't fix the 2008's. Just my thoughts on it.


Bingo.


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## Jens (Apr 21, 2006)

I don't know why I'm on the pro side here as I think as well that this should be covered by warranty. I guess I simple don't see a general design flaw here. Sorry Tom, but it seems your usually keen sense for action/ reaction is missing  



plantbrain said:


> Cost more, weighs more, but what the heck?


Doesn't make any economical sense for a company to do, especially if you import the tanks, transport them over a long distance.... The tanks do get quite a bit heavier, the customer has to take special additional precautions.... the glass loses clarity.

The ADA glass thickness numbers are used for a half century in Germany and published as a industry standard. Lots of people validated those over the years. South Africa is using the numbers as industry guideline (last page) as well. 

Well, and my tank for sure didn't fail because it was using 12mm glass, it was the silicon bond (maybe wrong silicon, how knows) and the missing experiences of the custom builder. The bow on my tank is 1.5 mm, I hardly can see it with my eye. 

I agree, brackets will improve overall structural support but thickness is a requirement for the bowing of the glass less for structural support. 



Hoppy said:


> When the glass bows out on a long tank, it acts as a lever to break the silicone bond at the top corner.


Nice picture, was are you using?

It is actually the water pushing the panels out which causes the stress to the silicon, the bow is so minimal in the bond area and negligible. The safety value for the bow is 1/500 of the length. 



Craigthor said:


> Each tank is hand built by German craftsman carefully under very strict quality control.


I'm not sure if it was just a rumor, but I thought ADA moved the tank production to Asia. The thicker glass, less warranty and a new production location came all at the same time. Craig, maybe you can check the "made in" sticker from the new Mini M.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Hoppy said:


>


Good illustration!

Such is the PIA of amorphous solids + right angles.

It'd be sweet if glass tanks could be made with the vaccuum-molding process, like acrylic tanks. Then the tank would be seemless, and the "stretch" would be distributed more evenly.


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

unirdna said:


> Good illustration!
> 
> Such is the PIA of amorphous solids + right angles.
> 
> It'd be sweet if glass tanks could be made with the vaccuum-molding process, like acrylic tanks. Then the tank would be seemless, and the "stretch" would be distributed more evenly.


They do make the "seamless" tanks by melting the glass edges together, but only up to the 60p size and the cost an arm and a leg


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Jens said:


> I'm not sure if it was just a rumor, but I thought ADA moved the tank production to Asia. The thicker glass, less warranty and a new production location came all at the same time. Craig, maybe you can check the "made in" sticker from the new Mini M.


When I purchased my 90p in 2007, I was told by Jeff Senske that my tank was made in Germany - shipped to Japan - shipped to Texas - shipped to Wisconsin - 20,000 miles?


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

unirdna said:


> When I purchased my 90p in 2007, I was told by Jeff Senske that my tank was made in Germany - shipped to Japan - shipped to Texas - shipped to Wisconsin - 20,000 miles?


is the 90p 3 feet long?


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## BradH (May 15, 2008)

clwatkins10 said:


> They do make the "seamless" tanks by melting the glass edges together, but only up to the 60p size and the cost an arm and a leg


You mean there is no silicone? Just glass? If so, do you have a link to one on a website or something?


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

clwatkins10 said:


> is the 90p 3 feet long?


90cm - just under 3 feet - approx 35.5 inches


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Jens said:


> I don't know why I'm on the pro side here as I think as well that this should be covered by warranty. I guess I simple don't see a general design flaw here. Sorry Tom, but it seems your usually keen sense for action/ reaction is missing


I agree with you about the warranty. Lessy see how keen I am or not at the end of the post.



> Doesn't make any economical sense for a company to do, especially if you import the tanks, transport them over a long distance.... The tanks do get quite a bit heavier, the customer has to take special additional precautions.... the glass loses clarity.


I do not see clarity issues with a few mm more of glass. I nor anyone I've ever asked can see a difference in person either:thumbsup: 

The trade offs out weigh the risk.
I would rather error on the side of safety, like any risk assessment issue.
Business have other issues, ship/cost and weight. 
They take the risk going thin, they should owe up when things fail like this.
We both agree there. 



> The ADA glass thickness numbers are used for a half century in Germany and published as a industry standard. Lots of people validated those over the years. South Africa is using the numbers as industry guideline (last page) as well.


How do you explain all these ADA tanks busting out?:icon_roll
You offer critiques _without offering an alternative explanation_ as to the observations. I, however, shall.

I do agree it's not due to the structure bowing or the glass itself breaking, that's not what is going on.

We have several tanks here and it looks like a rather common issue for ADA. I and most other folks here do not have experience with these tanks from other places and my bet is you do not either.

So we really do not know that much about those tanks.
I have no issues with the structural glass issues, just the bond *area.*

Also, with thicker silicone coverage when constructing the tanks, you get better strength, not shaved to the bone for the super clean look. Many of the tanks also started using Euro Bracing for good reason.
Why was that done?



> Well, and my tank for sure didn't fail because it was using 12mm glass, it was the silicon bond (maybe wrong silicon, how knows) and the missing experiences of the custom builder. The bow on my tank is 1.5 mm, I hardly can see it with my eye.


Something appears not clear from above:

The silicone bond is the issue, which is a function of *area *that is glued...... *not* the glass breaking/bowing due to thickness. The bond strength and stress is directly proportional to the area which the glued seam bonds together. 

Which glass thickness has more area, 12 mm or 16mm?
16mm has 33% more strength due to area.
That's a lot more strength for more 4mm.
Add some larded on slop silicone rather than seamless, and you get another 1-2mm of more area. Now it's nearly 50% more area. Quite a bit different bond strength.

The taller the tank, the more pressure stress shall be placed on this area also. Many 24" tall tanks use thicker glass on the bottom or reinforcing slats for this reason. The slats greatly increases the bond strength, but does little for the panel bowing etc. I've done this on a 120 Gallon 4x2x2 ft tank recently. Works. So there are trade offs we can do and still have thinner glass in some areas. 

Others use black silicone and make the larded on seams smooth and cleaner looking, this increases area and still gives a nice clean look(I don't like it personally) .

This has little to do with the glass bowing in terms of the seal, unless you get into an issue like Hoppy suggest, but I do not think that is the issue here, the bond with the glue is the issue and it's a direct function of the area to be glued. So on that bowing point or structural aspect, I'd agree with you there.

Think about the bond area and strength, which is the relevant issue here.



> I agree, brackets will improve overall structural support but thickness is a requirement for the bowing of the glass less for structural support.


Glass breaking/bowing is not the issue here however, on that point I agree, the bond strength is. Some have confused this issue or assumed that it, not the strength of the bond area, is what causes the seam to pull apart.

I think you realize this too, but perhaps are not aware. 



> It is actually the water pushing the panels out which causes the stress to the silicon, the bow is so minimal in the bond area and negligible.


And there's the issue when I mention thicker glass, the bond area.
Simple calculation to see area differences. How much more area do you get with the more larded on seams versus the seamless? I figure at least 1-2mm more. 

I've made and repaired 20-25 tanks over the years, from 180's down to 4 gallons. Done euro bracing etc, folks have seem me do this and seen the work. I've used euro bracing that did not work, but it was not due to the thickness of the glass, rather, the area of the bond, when that was increased, there was no issue. the glass never broke in either case, but the area was increased by 2x and there was no issue and has not been since.
the 100 gallon rimless tank was repaired in 1996, still doing fine. 

I want a nice rimless tank, but I also do not mind paying more to have it done right, where it will last longer. Many do not have such options. 

I really do not see nor buy into that whole thin optical glass BS, I have had such tanks, has opti white glass etc, I cannot tell the difference truthfully, maybe an astute photographer might, but I cannot. 

This might clear up a few things for folks.

If you pay 2000$ for a 180 gallon tank, you better get something that will last and hold up, not something that cut corners and tried to sell you on Bs like thinner better optical glass(they are just trying to spin going cheaper and less weight), structural strength ain't it either(can be if they go too far, but I don't think that occurs here), bond area is.

So there's the alternative that explains the observations and still supports the claims about glass strength thickness/breakage bowing. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

BradH said:


> You mean there is no silicone? Just glass? If so, do you have a link to one on a website or something?


Jebo makes all their aquariums in this fashion. Also, if you have seen a JBJ Cube they also use a one-piece seamless glass.


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

BradH said:


> You mean there is no silicone? Just glass? If so, do you have a link to one on a website or something?


it was in their catalog


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## BradH (May 15, 2008)

I want a one-piece glass cube. At the most 5 gallons, but I can't find one.


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

Well an alternative to rimless, would be using triangular bracing on the corners (like this aquarium made by Miracles in Glass):









IMO, still looks just as elegant and easily accessible as rimless just with better bracing (much better than none at all or too much like mid/Euro-bracing).

The owner of that particular aquarium above:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1535215&perpage=25&pagenumber=1


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The triangles can be added post production also for added strength for ADA tanks also or other brands.

The other option is to use large thick acrylic(cost but has no optical issues, not seam issues, stronger etc, and weighs less).

So for a 180, using 1" acrylic for the front and rear panels will weigh a fair amount, but the sides can be 3/4" and the bottom can be 1/2".

It's mainly bowing over time of the frotn and rear panels, but at 1" thick that's going to tough.

Yes, Acrylic scratches easier, but it can be buffed out also.
If you opt for an acrylic, you can make all sorts of rims that are small and loo better, add triangles etc. Much easier to move and often cheaper, easier to find a local builder.

The thin cheapo Acrylic tanks you see that are old and nasty are not the same as a well cared for thicker acrylic cell cast set up.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

gabeszone247 said:


> Here are some pictures of an ADA 120-p 6 years old didn't show any bubbles, and just started leaking again from the top corners all four of them.


A joint glued with a flexible material like silicone is strongest, by far, when the the silicone is thin. Where the silicone is thick, such as in the fillet typical of most cheaper tanks, that part of the silicone adds very little to the strength of the joint - it is like a thick rubber band, so it just stretches under stress, which makes the thinner part of the silicone carry the load.

Now, look at that photo of the ADA tank. Those pieces of glass are all chamfered very neatly and uniformly, and they look great. But, the silicone in the chamfered areas is thicker and adds little to the joint strength. So, it isn't just the thin glass that reduces the area of the glue joint, but the chamfers reduce it too, and by a lot, percentage wise. Bad engineering!

Another basic fact: the front and back, as well as the ends of any aquarium are bowed out by the pressure of the water in the tank. No material known to man can withstand stress without deforming. (An exception is prestressed materials, such as metals that have been peened, or tempered glass.) The fact that the deformation is too small to see doesn't mean it isn't there. And, that deformation does add a torque to the corner that greatly increases the stress at the inside of the corner joint, so all such joints will start to fail at the inside of the corner. That was what my crude sketch was an attempt to show. The thinner the glass at the corner, the higher the stress at the inside of the corner compared to the outside.


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## rwong2k (Dec 24, 2004)

This is a really interesting thread, all this time I've been trying to locate some ADA or rimless tanks in my area, something to consider now =)
thanks everyone for their input


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## Jens (Apr 21, 2006)

Hoppy said:


> A joint glued with a flexible material like silicone is strongest, by far, when the the silicone is thin. Where the silicone is thick, such as in the fillet typical of most cheaper tanks, that part of the silicone adds very little to the strength of the joint - it is like a thick rubber band, so it just stretches under stress, which makes the thinner part of the silicone carry the load.


Exactly my understanding as well. Thanks for bringing this up. The industry standard I referenced does require polished edges for safety, the calculation must be based on this fact.



plantbrain said:


> How do you explain all these ADA tanks busting out?:icon_roll
> 
> You offer critiques _without offering an alternative explanation_ as to the observations.


Razor blades to clean water deposits, aggressive chemicals affecting the silicon, insufficient structural support, earthquakes, shaky foundation, bacteria penetrating the silicon..... 

Those are things which come to mind besides a completely unsupported claim for a design defect which no structural analysis providing any support. But I completely understand the tendency to overbuild. Common human nature, I guess. Lucky for us somebody came up with structural analysis to prevent waste of precious resources.  On the other hand all measurements listed by you to increase the structural integrity are valid.



plantbrain said:


> We have several tanks here and it looks like a rather common issue for ADA. I and most other folks here do not have experience with these tanks from other places and my bet is you do not either.


My country of origin is Germany. My dads tank dates back 25 years, still leak free. 

I get always very confused looks if I asked about rimless tanks. Those are the norm in Germany. The country has a very long history of aquarium construction, for a wicked reason, tanks are rimless. 

I inquired in detail about rimless tanks when I had to repair my purchased broken tank. I did my homework. All my finding were supported by the tank builder from Australia in scolleys build thread. 



plantbrain said:


> Add some larded on slop silicone rather than seamless, and you get another 1-2mm of more area. Now it's nearly 50% more area. Quite a bit different bond strength.


See Hoppy post. This acts more as protection and adds little strength. Larded on slop silicone was the main argument I found to prevent bacteria penetrating the silicon. BUT on the other hand people did not notice any significant penetration after 5 years. Go figure. Seems to be a weak argument but still may cause long-term issues.



plantbrain said:


> The taller the tank, the more pressure stress shall be placed on this area also. Many 24" tall tanks use thicker glass on the bottom or reinforcing slats for this reason. The slats greatly increases the bond strength, but does little for the panel bowing etc.


I was only able to find references for this procedure for tanks 6ft+. It is recommended to increase the bottom panel in relation to the side panel by one size for long tank and/or double the bottom panel and even use multiple pieces. I do know that GC likes to add lots of slats to their tanks. Simple reason, a lot of the early tanks did leak , slats did solve this issues for them I assume.  Overbuilding will tackle overall build issues.



plantbrain said:


> I really do not see nor buy into that whole thin optical glass BS, I have had such tanks, has opti white glass etc, I cannot tell the difference truthfully, maybe an astute photographer might, but I cannot.


Well, I do see a differences between my 50G AGA and my saphire glass. 
But I don't think it is worry the expense. I agree.


To conclude, I don't see any supported evidence for a design flaw related to the glass thickness. 

Or do you seriously would like to tell me Architect's in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, South Africa are building structures based on faultily standards?!?

On the other hand, tanks can just simply fail. Can be a manufacture defect, can be a consumer error. Hard to tell from a couple incidence. The number can be very well in the normal ratio for failures.

You can overbuild as well but you still will have a failure quote. 

Link to a Federation of New Zealand Aquatic Societies
glass thickness worksheet.


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## boink (Nov 27, 2006)

Mmmm, so by that chart ADA FS for the 120P is 2.8 only?


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## fishyboy (Nov 16, 2003)

I bought a used 3 foot square tank thats 1 foot tall. 1/4" sides and 1/2" bottom. The corners are triangulated like the photo on page 4. There is NO deflection, surprisingly. Although the maker used a lot of silicone and is sloppy even externally in some places. I have to belief most ADA tanks could be modified in this fashion for long term use.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

fishyboy said:


> I bought a used 3 foot square tank thats 1 foot tall. 1/4" sides and 1/2" bottom. The corners are triangulated like the photo on page 4. There is NO deflection, surprisingly. Although the maker used a lot of silicone and is sloppy even externally in some places. I have to belief most ADA tanks could be modified in this fashion for long term use.


There is no reason to buy ADA tanks, other than their appearance, which is definitely superior to almost all other tanks. So, a "fix" that affects the appearance isn't a good one. If I were to buy an ADA tank I would expect to be able to use it unmodified, for many years, certainly longer than 5 years, and not have to worry about it failing. Since ADA is increasing their glass thicknesses I assume they agree with me. 

I think what ADA should do is offer a 50% (or more) off coupon to anyone who sends photographic proof that a seam failed on their tank. That would do a great deal to maintain their reputation.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Hoppy said:


> I think what ADA should do is offer a 50% (or more) off coupon to anyone who sends photographic proof that a seam failed on their tank. That would do a great deal to maintain their reputation.


I agree. A voucher would go a long way. But, they would need a method to prevent fraud. I don't think my tank has a serial number anywhere on it... So, you'd need to send more than just a closeup photo or two. Perhaps a photo of you standing next to the tank, while holding a copy of your birth certificate and a local newspaper :hihi:.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

unirdna said:


> I agree. A voucher would go a long way. But, they would need a method to prevent fraud. I don't think my tank has a serial number anywhere on it... So, you'd need to send more than just a closeup photo or two. Perhaps a photo of you standing next to the tank, while holding a copy of your birth certificate and a local newspaper :hihi:.


Given the prices for ADA tanks I figured they all had unique serial numbers, and were registered with ADA, with an 800 number to call when you want the outside cleaned.


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

Hoppy said:


> Given the prices for ADA tanks I figured they all had unique serial numbers, and were registered with ADA, with an 800 number to call when you want the outside cleaned.


 
Mine didn't come with that sticker :icon_cry:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Hoppy said:


> Those pieces of glass are all chamfered very neatly and uniformly, and they look great. But, the silicone in the chamfered areas is thicker and adds little to the joint strength. So, it isn't just the thin glass that reduces the area of the glue joint, but the chamfers reduce it too, and by a lot, percentage wise. Bad engineering!


Yes, we see this in quite a few tanks.
I have nothing but rimless tanks, I've made them and have had several in past. Some are quite old as well. The slop over on the seams does help retain the bond strength with the area, like it or not, as a typical bond thickness is less than 1 mm, all you need is say a 0.5mm extra on either side to gain another 1 mm total on the seam for added bond strength. This seems fairly reasonable when it comes to statics and force in such a system.

I've seen this not just in this thread, but several of the other ADA tanks, which is why I'm questioning it and there's no relationship with these types of things being present. I know the owners, they do not use razors, they have ADA stands, the bacteria.......who knows.........chemicals are out, I know a bit too much about cleaning silicone off as a glazer........ been through a couple of quakes, no issues nor any in the club..........such "alternatives" are all _long shots_.

The other issue, it's always this same spot, not other locations.
This means it's not likely due to a stand issue which tends to break the bottom and lower seams, not the top edges.

Construction, cheaper glass, variation in the glass used, not clamped corrected when making it, too much pressure in some parts, not enough in others along the seam, particularly if wood slats are used to spread the pressure which are variable. Then you get differences in the bond strength along the seams. Temps also affect things. 

You can avoid this with better construction methods, and perhaps get away with less thickness, but then someone else comes along and makes a tank with the bare min or resources, and they fail at a higher %.

Not everyone makes aquariums the same.
So rather than shave to the bone, add some margin of safety to reduce % of failures.

This is not some stable static thing, there is risk involved in each tank, and this needs factored it for just this type of abuse we often see, shipping issues, aquarist care and maintaince. 



> Those are things which come to mind besides a completely unsupported claim for a design defect which no structural analysis providing any support.


All glass created equal in terms of strength? Are all edges that are bonded the same? Can you honestly make a broad based Structural Analysis claims without addressing that also? Or how the bonds are pressed together?

I cannot.
Those are large areas of unknowns. To account for them, I made suggestions where we use error on the side of safety. 

This is now _risk assessment_.
Maybe you have not seen enough ADA tanks to assess that the risk is real?
I have seen about 20. Almost all of them have stress issues at this same location.

I spend 3000$ on a tank, you bet it better not come apart.



> But I completely understand the tendency to overbuild. Common human nature, I guess. Lucky for us somebody came up with structural analysis to prevent waste of precious resources. On the other hand all measurements listed by you to increase the structural integrity are valid.


Everything is overbuilt to some degree. We do not cut corners without some sort of trade off. The trade off is a higher % of failed tanks, for whatever reason/s but saved $, shipping cost(weight vs volume which is the same might not be as big an issue), cheaper product and not so much the glass resource itself. The busted tank is pretty much a wasted resource to everyone involved. 

The solution is to use a thicker seam to reduce the risk of failure, fortunately risk assessment, safety and overbuilding things trumps using the bare minimum in structural analysis to save a few $. In some cases, this is fine where the risk is low, but not here I'd wager.

The thinner/less area you go, the more risk you will have.

While theory is great, the % of actual tanks I have made and the % I've personally seen like this, point to a rather simple solution: a thicker seam/glass will help and reduce such risk.

If these companies are so confident, then they should offer lifetime warranties, pout their money where their mouth is: these guys do it for rimmed tanks:
http://www.aqueonproducts.com/assets/011/19784.pdf

Lifetime for all tanks 65 Gal and over.
That's fair.

They can and do use tempered glass and use "less resources" and thinner glass as well. Since that's your approach, why not suggest that instead?
Ahh....gets back to that old issue of surface bond area does it not?

Since precious resources and waste are also part of this, why not just stop the hobby altogether? This hobby is a luxury and one of consumption after all:icon_roll We do not need to do this hobby do we?
Obvious waste is one thing, trade off for less risk is another.

The latter is really what this about, not waste really, if you are a business making tanks, you can go either way and market it accordingly. Some over build, some do not. 

You can also design and have someone make them custom for you like I do, they often know exactly what does and does not work. They error on the side of safety. One busted tank, and I'll never buy from them again
That is "consumer analysis".

We have a few such tanks around here in CA area with ADA, seems like a much higher % than we should see for the $, I'd expect a lot more as a consumer.

Offer a lifetime warranty. The upper seam should not have anything to do with stands or many other issues. And that is where the issues have occurred. The issue is very specific and localized on the tanks. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## moogoo (Dec 7, 2007)

Crazy that the warranty went from 5 to 3 in a matter of months. When I was shopping for ada tanks around the holidays, it was definitely 5 years.


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## Jens (Apr 21, 2006)

plantbrain said:


> That is *"consumer analysis"*.


Consumer are very interesting creatures. I can't argue with that 

I apologize right in advance for this question as it does not belong in this discussion. But it was the first think popping up in my mind.

I have to ask you, Tom. What on earth prompted *you* to choose the aquarium builder with the "highest" customer satisfaction and low build-quality in the States? :icon_ques 




unirdna said:


> Truth is that I like the frameless tanks so much that if I had to buy a new one every 5 years, I'd do it.


Ted, I prefer your *"consumer analysis"*.


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## James4226c (Dec 8, 2009)

:bounce: ttt. Any updates?


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

James4226c said:


> ttt. Any updates?


Digging up a thread from over a year ago


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## James4226c (Dec 8, 2009)

Darkblade48 said:


> Digging up a thread from over a year ago


Planing on buying a 90p but want it to last for more than 5 years.


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## jnaz (Apr 12, 2009)

My 120P Clear arrived at my door 2 years ago today and was finally set up a little more than a week ago. It failed at one of the seams this morning at 5am. Not a good way to start the day.


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## Riverboa (Mar 18, 2009)

Yikes. Sorry to hear about that JNaz. I hope ADA would take care of that, please keep us updated.


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## cliffclof (Dec 14, 2006)

Jnaz,

So sorry to hear of the mess you had to deal with.

I came here from your club thread and read this interesting run of things. I think Hoppy points out some real good points. And if you look at what this thread is stating (tanks fail from years of stress and bow) and yours (tank failed after x years and initial setup) add those two problems together and I would think that the silicone may also be losing its strength from poor quality manufacture/lot. Silicone does rot.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Jens said:


> I have to ask you, Tom. What on earth prompted *you* to choose the aquarium builder with the "highest" customer satisfaction and low build-quality in the States? :icon_ques


I was suckered. 
Point blank.

Also, no one else would make the tanks I wanted at the time that I was aware of. I Learnt the hard way. But.....those tanks have not leaked or busted either. I'd rather have my case vs jnaz's, would you?

For 36" or less, the ADA tanks are nice, not always the dimension I like, but they seam pretty good there, at 36 and beyond? I've been going with LeMar. They can cost more, but larger ones can be made any size, euro bracing if desired etc. Seam work is nice etc. Charlie's tanks also have been well done. But you have to pick up in LA, or have a LFS that will order a lemar for you.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jnaz said:


> my 120p clear arrived at my door 2 years ago today and was finally set up a little more than a week ago. It failed at one of the seams this morning at 5am. Not a good way to start the day.


sob!


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## JasonG75 (Mar 1, 2011)

Hoppy said:


> Yes, but ADA charges much more for their tanks than others do, so they should go the extra mile to show that paying that extra price is worth doing. Right now I don't believe it is worth it. They are making their past customers into guinea pigs for their benefit.


 
:thumbsup:


Totally agree....those tanks and stands are almost more than my entire (already established) setup.


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## HBdirtbag (Jun 15, 2015)

know this is an ancient thread, but my ADA 75H started leaking on me over the weekend. At the bottom back seam. Trying to decide if I repair, and if so what is the best approach. or if I get a custom tank made. Tank was sitting on a real ADA stand.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

HBdirtbag said:


> know this is an ancient thread, but my ADA 75H started leaking on me over the weekend. At the bottom back seam. Trying to decide if I repair, and if so what is the best approach. or if I get a custom tank made. Tank was sitting on a real ADA stand.


Since it is sitting on ADA stand isn't it covered under warranty?


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## HBdirtbag (Jun 15, 2015)

gus6464 said:


> Since it is sitting on ADA stand isn't it covered under warranty?







AFA won't respond to my emails, or return my calls............


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

gus6464 said:


> Since it is sitting on ADA stand isn't it covered under warranty?


It probably depends on the age of the tank. I think ADA's warranty is two years. Looking back at HB's journal on the tank it was bought by the original owner in 2008 so I doubt AFA will be much help with it.


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## HBdirtbag (Jun 15, 2015)

Yep. No luck. They stated it’s a 2 year warranty and good luck resealing it...


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

So who makes good custom tanks? I've heard Lee Mar is not around any more.


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## HBdirtbag (Jun 15, 2015)

There’s a few places. I know glass cages. But I’ve got Neptune’s aquatics close as well as a place in Sacramento called signature aquariums. That said. I haven’t heard back from the last two. And have no clue how good glass cages is these days. 


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

I've seen a few tanks by these guys on Youtube.

https://www.customaquariums.com/


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

I looked at glass cages but I don't like what i'm seeing for reviews...


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## EdWiser (Jul 14, 2015)

If you want the best aquarium then you have two options

http://www.reefsavvy.com/

https://www.tankmeusa.com/

It take time getting one from either builder. 
But they are the best builders in the USA


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

EdWiser said:


> If you want the best aquarium then you have two options
> 
> http://www.reefsavvy.com/
> 
> ...


I was not impressed by the reef savvy tank I saw at macna. The long wait and high price was definitely not worth it to me.

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## EdWiser (Jul 14, 2015)

I have seen perhaps 200 reef savvy tanks that friend has had. Besides the couple I have owned they the years. 

https://instagram.com/p/Bjxd7EiBMGf/


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## mjord (Jul 23, 2016)

*What about Ultum Nature Systems*

Interesting thread. Please share your opinions regarding Ultum Nature Systems' tanks with their 45° beveled seams. It seems logical the joints would be stronger with this type of construction.


And then there's WaterBox, which seems to be an ADA knockoff. Opinions?


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

UNS makes a better tank than ada nowadays. 

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