# Self sustaining tanks, anyone?



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

No a water change in 9 months, breeding killis and cherry shrimp:










Low water usage(all 1 liter's worth) top off for evaporation only.
Fish food and a tiny amount of ferts
13w light
3w filter
No heater
Onyx sand

Total cost for electric per year:
5.70$ for light + 3.15 for filter ~9$ per year
Food: maybe 4-5$

Plants and fish/shrimp culls = 40$

No bad rate of return.
Not much for the labor factor though, be better off working at McDonald's :redface:

Still, virtually no labor other than feeding them and adding evaporation water.
A well scaped larger SEA version:









I'd focus one Crypts, ferns, so called lower light plants, and then some floating plant species, shallow tanks where some can do the aerial thing or some part where they grow up into the air a little etc.









Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

I have a couple but they're not as pretty as Tom's.  They're just 'fish tanks' with plants. All I do is top them off, some water changes but not very often as the nitrogen is eaten up by plants.









Boraras brigittae









Apistogramma, Tetras


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## o snap its eric (Jan 12, 2004)

medium to low tech tanks are my new interest of now. I like the dark green broad leafs. They are much more suited for aqua scaping too.


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## 691175002 (Apr 28, 2009)

Pretty much any low or medium tech tank can be self sustaining. Just go easy with the fish and you should be able to get away with near non-existent water changes.


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## fibertech (Apr 29, 2009)

Wow!!!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

691175002 said:


> Pretty much any low or medium tech tank can be self sustaining. Just go easy with the fish and you should be able to get away with near non-existent water changes.


Tried that. Left the tank alone for 2 weeks. The plants became very leggy. Hygro sunset lost its color.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

I don't have much luck with planted stems in low tech 'ignored' tanks, I add them sometimes as scraps but they usually waste away, they do good floating though. Anubias, crypts, moss, ferns, subwassertang etc never die, and the sword obviously. I bet Hygros would do fine but I'm not really a Hygro kind of guy. Rotalas and Ludwigias usually waste away unless I stay on the ferts.


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## legomaniac89 (Mar 16, 2008)

jaidexl said:


> I don't have much luck with planted stems in low tech 'ignored' tanks, I add them sometimes as scraps but they usually waste away, they do good floating though. Anubias, crypts, moss, ferns, subwassertang etc never die, and the sword obviously. I bet Hygros would do fine but I'm not really a Hygro kind of guy. Rotalas and Ludwigias usually waste away unless I stay on the ferts.


I must be lucky then. I have _Rotala rotundifolia_ and _Ludwigia repens x arcuata _in my 20H, with no ferts, no CO2, nothing, and they do just fine. They even turn a nice red as they reach the lights.

I have some Sunset Hygro in another low tech 10g (not quite self sustaining), and it always has a bright pink color to it.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

legomaniac89 said:


> I must be lucky then. I have _Rotala rotundifolia_ and _Ludwigia repens x arcuata _in my 20H, with no ferts, no CO2, nothing, and they do just fine. They even turn a nice red as they reach the lights.
> 
> I have some Sunset Hygro in another low tech 10g (not quite self sustaining), and it always has a bright pink color to it.


Ditto, always had excellent deep red color in the plants that made it.
The A reineckii even did very well, as blood red as any seen in a CO2 enriched system.

I did not have a massive bunch of it, never tried, but the 2 stems did well for years.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## crimsonbull57 (Jan 7, 2009)

Tom what type of killis do you have in your 1 liter? Nice tanks btw!


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

I've never done a water change on my 75. I've never added any ferts or CO2. 

Mineralized soil and low light is the way to go :thumbsup:


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

legomaniac89 said:


> I have _Rotala rotundifolia_ and _Ludwigia repens x arcuata _in my 20H, with no ferts, no CO2, nothing, and they do just fine. They even turn a nice red as they reach the lights.
> Mineralized soil and low light is the way to go


Yeh, I agree with the mineralized soil concept. I think it is good for creating a balance when what is very soft. For adding charcoal and sodium bicarbonate decreased the column dosing need from daily to weekly. Just its a bit costly and difficult to do when you live in an apartment. Thus going to do something similar. Will be adding calcium sulphate, organic charcoal and to topsoil. Thinking of letting it soak for a month in a bucket.

Been doing some research on soils comparing prices. I think it would have been easier and same cost in the long run if I had bought laterite at Petsmart. For with laterite I wouldn't need to add any nutrients. The differernce is that mineralized soil maintains nutrients 2x longer than laterite.


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## PinoyBoy (Mar 14, 2008)

plantbrain said:


> No a water change in 9 months, breeding killis and cherry shrimp:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can you provide more pictures/info on this tank?
Looks very nice despite its very small size.


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## Shadowcat3 (May 12, 2009)

OK, here's a dumb question. How do you KNOW that you don't need to do WC's?? Monitor Ammonia and Nitrates, watch the plants??...Being a fish guy for years, I've always done large, frequent WC's, say 60% weekly or bi-weekly. Doing that kept the water clean and I never bothered to monitor anything because I figured nothing nasty had time to accumulate. However, the idea of doing away with or greatly reducing WC's in a well planted tank does sound appealing......what's the secret??


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## someguy9812 (Feb 24, 2009)

Secret is finding a balance of fish and plant life, that allows little to no accumulation of waste materials or harmful substances.

Best way to determine this is do water test. Also monitier plants and fish of course to make sure they seem ok, but you need to do testing until you get a stable tank with little to not fluctuations.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Shadowcat3 said:


> KNOW that you don't need to do WC's?? Monitor Ammonia and Nitrates, watch the plants??


I go by the smell of the tank. Some, I've read, do water changes when the nitrates get high.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

I do them when nitrate gets high, I have other tanks that get more attention but the two I posted are the 'forgotten'' ones, they're self sufficient because I left them alone a long time ago and they were forced to be. They basically evolved, the dominant plants took over, nitrate is history. I really don't keep big enough fish loads in them for anything but the hardiest of plants, but I never vacuum the mulm and I feed pretty heavily to help them out.

There are other reasons to do water changes, to replenish or balance alkalinity or hardness, depending on the situation they can rise or fall over time if you just leave a tank alone for years. Water changes can keep untestable traces in check. Of course, you can still add all these things without doing water changes. 

Then there are all the unknowns to think about, stuff that has somehow made it from the house into the tank over time, who knows. For uncovered tanks, imagine what could be carried through the water on billions of dust particles before they reach the filter pad. Could be science fiction or paranoia, but I know a lot of people keep up with water changes for that reason. I try to do them at least once every couple months just to be a good citizen.


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## Aquarist_Fist (Jul 22, 2008)

It seems to me that a truly self-sustaining tank does not require fish food. It would be interesting to see if one could sustain a fish population that feeds on dwarf shrimp, plants, or the like, but that would probably require a large tank.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Aquarist_Fist said:


> It seems to me that a truly self-sustaining tank does not require fish food. It would be interesting to see if one could sustain a fish population that feeds on dwarf shrimp, plants, or the like, but that would probably require a large tank.


I have a tread about the length that fish can go without being fed. One replied about a tank turned off all the life supports (heater, filtering and food). After 2 years he decided to clean it and as getting an axolotl found a a living loach. I left the tank alone for 2 weeks. Everything was doing okay but the plants weren't growing like I like them. The bottoms had no leaves.

I don't think anyone would want to deliberately experiment like that.


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## Florida_Larry (Jan 19, 2009)

I agree with hilde, that is kinda like pulling the plug on a lifesupport where recover is possible.

So how about defining self sustaining?

no water changes check
no added co2 DOH ( Excel )
no ferts DOH ( leaf zone )
no artifical filtering DOH ( Emperor 400 )

well 1 out of 4 anyways. 

me id rather watch my tanks than spend all my time cleaning, guess mine is only semi self sustaining

but then like the full self sustaining, i go on Vaca for a week with no worries at all, top off the water, give them a feeding on departure day, and all will be fine on return.

Timers for regular and nightlighting.


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## sean117Ply (Jun 28, 2009)

But is nitrate the 'only' remaining pollutant? I only ever do water changes because of the nitrate getting to high, but is there any other reason to do a water change except maybe replenishing trace minerals?

The goal with my 55g is to make it as low maintenance/ self sustaining as possible, maybe only 4-5 water changes a year. So far from what I can gather from people's posts are;

-Soil, flourite substrate for years and years worth of nutrients.

-Low-light plants and a lot of them to soak up and nitrates and to just keep the water 'healthy'

-And a small bio-load 

It also seems the age of the tank plays a role, I overheard a conversation in the lfs. One guy said to the clerk "would you believe I haven't done a water change in 6 months" the clerk said "Yes, we usually find with our planted display tanks that the older and more mature they get the more self-sustaining they become"

This is probably due to a multitude of reasons; the build up of micro-organisms, plants fully acclimatising to the aquariums conditions, and probably most importantly a good ecological balance.


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

My tanks are mostly as close to self-sustaining as I can get them. While I agree that a TRULY self-sustaining tank would not require feeding, I do feed the fish. 

My 30 has eco-complete, lots of stems (including sunset hygro), moss and crypts and some others and now that it is mature, i mostly only do top-offs. It's mildy over stocked at the moment so i occasionally do a water change to bring down the nitrAtes. Otherwise, i feed the fish every other day or so, stuff fert tabs in the substrate every few months, top off the water as needed (good for replenishing trace minerals too) and let the fish do the rest of the fertilizing and the plants do the rest of the cleaning!  

Low light is definitely the way to go with self-sustaining, but that shouldn't mean you're limited to only slow-growers. 

Though stems and mosses do mean you have to dig in there occasionally and pull out the overgrowth.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Hi Hilde,
My 55g soil sub tank is heading this way. It was filled on 4/30 and WC's are starting to span nearly a month without a PO4 spike which was the reason for water changes before. Still seeing natural CO2 as well out of the substrate at about 3ppm above atmosphere based on KH/pH readings. Once the organics are gone I'm sure I'll lose it though :icon_sad: NO3 struggles to reach 5ppm when I test. Need to overfeed the fish more:biggrin:

In the process of posting an update as the plants are really starting to fill in. Won't be long and I'll be chasing Tim for his lack of maintenance title:biggrin:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/low-tech-forum/86457-55-gallon-low-tech-soil-sub.html

update posted :biggrin:


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## Trallen44 (Dec 10, 2008)

Keep on chasing!!! LOL


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## python (Mar 21, 2007)

*my contribution*

Here is my self sustaining tank. No water changes, only top-offs. Last time I did a WC was 6 months ago when I moved. I left all the plants and shrimp in, drained the water down to 1", covered with wet paper towels, and loaded the whole thing in the car. After the 2.5 hour drive, filled it back up with tap water verrrrrrry slowly and added amquel. I had no livestock losses that I could see.

It is a 10g with AH supply CF converted hood, flourite substrate, and dinky in-tank filter that I haven't cleaned in a year.

Inhabitants: Unknown number of RCS and rams

I feed once a week, and add flourish and excel about once a month if I remember.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

python said:


> Here is my self sustaining tank. No water changes, only top-offs.


Love your aquarium!! 

Thanks for all of the pictures! Basicly looking to see how plants grow in low light low maintenance tanks.


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

This is my low light low tech 30g (sorry, it's in serious need of some moss removal and a top-off in this picture) 










and a close-up of the sunset hygro:









So you can definitely get some good color and healthy growth in this kind of tank!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Karackle said:


> This is my low light low tech 30g (sorry, it's in serious need of some moss removal and a top-off in this picture)


You seem to have the same amount of light that I have. What type of light bulb do you have over the tank. Light doesn't seem to get to the bottom. Perhaps you need a better reflector.

I have Hygro sunset. It was pink for a while. I see the Penneywort plant is growing good. Perhaps that could take the place of 4 leaf clover I have, which is not growing well.


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

This is not a great picture, the light actually does reach the bottom pretty well, I have lots of healthy, starting to turn pink, sunset hygro plantlets that are only an inch of two tall, and some healthy crypt wendtii babies growing well near the ground too. The rest of the sunset hygro has gotten MORE pink since i switched it into this tank, it's doing much better than I expected. And the pennywort definitely loves this tank too! So do the crypts and the mosses and the sword :hihi:

I have a 30" T8 fluorescent light over the 36" tank, I believe the wattage is 25 watts?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Karackle said:


> I have a 30" T8 fluorescent light over the 36" tank, I believe the wattage is 25 watts?


I am so envious. I have 2-20 watt bulbs, zoo med and life- glo. Ludwiga just starting to color.

You have less than 1 wpg like Trallen44. What brand of lights are you using? Tell me more about your tank, water parameters.


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Well you can get the most info for my tank from my 30g journal link, but basically it's very simple. I have a mixed substrate of eco-complete and plain black gravel. The tank is almost 1 year old and I've added fertilizer tabs i think only twice. 

I'm not sure on the brand of the lights but I will check when I get home from work. 

I think part of the reason I have such success in such low light (with all of my tanks) is that I leave the lights on for a LONG time, minimum of 12 hours on most of my tanks. I also tend to err on the overstocked side of things providing lots of fertilizer for my plants which I think helps, but I can't say for sure.

Or perhaps there is just something magical in my water? I hope not, because when I move in 6 weeks I might have trouble!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Karackle said:


> Well you can get the most info for my tank from my 30g journal link, but basically it's very simple. I have a mixed substrate of eco-complete and plain black gravel. The tank is almost 1 year old and I've added fertilizer tabs i think only twice.


Thanks for the info. Dealing with ear aches it was a bit difficult for me to read through your thread.


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

No worries! 

The major important information is on the first page, in the post #1, i update that when i make changes in my tank. 

I hope the info I provided here was helpful though, and I hope your ear feels better!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

legomaniac89 said:


> I must be lucky then. I have _Rotala rotundifolia_ and _Ludwigia repens x arcuata _in my 20H, with no ferts, no CO2, nothing, and they do just fine. They even turn a nice red as they reach the lights.


Perhaps this due to the fact you have substrate that no one else is has and minerals in the water? What is your gh and kh?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Karackle said:


> I think part of the reason I have such success in such low light. Minimum of 12 hours on most of my tanks. I also tend to err on the overstocked side of things providing lots of fertiliser for my plants.


Well I started leaving the lights on longer and the plants are growing better. When I started seeing algae on the wall I cut them down to 
10 hrs.

I only have 4 Platy, 4 mini Plecos, and 1 male Betta at present. Thus I feed 2x a day. I want to get more fish but first I have to break the tank down. For every time I move the plants I loose a few fish. Probably because I put red bag Kitty litter in the substrate.


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## Kolkri (Dec 9, 2006)

I would to hear if anyone is having luck with this without spending money on special lights.


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## legomaniac89 (Mar 16, 2008)

Hilde said:


> Perhaps this due to the fact you have substrate that no one else is has and minerals in the water? What is your gh and kh?


Could be. My tap water has a dkH of 24 and a dgH of 33. Liquid rock, I know :icon_roll. But honestly, I've never tested the gH or kH in the tank itself.


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## legomaniac89 (Mar 16, 2008)

Kolkri said:


> I would to hear if anyone is having luck with this without spending money on special lights.


I have another almost self-sustaining tank (10G) using only a standard 15W T8 bulb and fixture.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Kolkri said:


> I would to hear if anyone is having luck with this without spending money on special lights.


If you have 10 gallon or 20 gallon long you can probably just use clip on lights. At least that is what I have seen. Have also seen nano cubes with clip on lights. Just got get a good bulb.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

legomaniac89 said:


> I have another almost self-sustaining tank (10G) using only a standard 15W T8 bulb and fixture.


What plants do you have in there?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

legomaniac89 said:


> Could be. My tap water has a dkH of 24 and a dgH of 33. Liquid rock, I know :icon_roll. But honestly, I've never tested the gH or kH in the tank itself.


It would be interesting to know what the parameters are in the tank.


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## legomaniac89 (Mar 16, 2008)

Hilde said:


> What plants do you have in there?


The typical low tech plants. Crypts, Anubias, Mosses, Hygro corymbosa, more crypts. Nitrates are usually around 20ppm, and I do a 50% WC about every other month.



Hilde said:


> It would be interesting to know what the parameters are in the tank.


Maybe one of these days I'll steal a 5-in-1 test strip from my work and we'll find out, but as long as the fish and plants are happy the params don't matter much to me.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

legomaniac89 said:


> The typical low tech plants. Crypts, Anubias, Mosses, Hygro corymbosa, more crypts. Nitrates are usually around 20ppm, and I do a 50% WC about every other month.


Well I see 1 thing you have that I don't, nitrates. My nitrates are near 0 every time I test it. Perhaps it is lack of nitrates and other minerals that is the problem. 

So confusing for I am told plants grow better in soft water but need minerals, which soft water is low in. I assume it is a matter of having a balance.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Some confusion probably there when folks say "soft", GH is related to hardness vs. softness and is the measure of minerals that the plants need (Ca, Mg) and what fish use their osmoregulatory system to adapt to. Alkalinity (KH) I believe is what some very picky plants like Tonina have a problem with, which is the measure of carbonates and bicarbonates. Here is where the flaw lies with folks who try to "soften" their water for certain fish like discus, with a pH adjuster that actually affects alkalinity.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jaidexl said:


> Here is where the flaw lies with folks who try to "soften" their water for certain fish like discus, with a pH adjuster that actually affects alkalinity.


Are you saying that at times you can have low ph with hard water?


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Yes. High KH and GH usually go hand in hand, but you can strip your KH and leave GH alone, the pH will still go down. So low pH doesn't necessarily mean soft water.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jaidexl said:


> Yes. High KH and GH usually go hand in hand, but you can strip your KH and leave GH alone, the pH will still go down. So low pH doesn't necessarily mean soft water.


You what is ironic is that my tap water has a high ph of 8 yet is very soft. I can't read the gh or kh. This means it probably is high with phosphates.


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## shrimpo (Aug 2, 2009)

Hilde said:


> Anybody else have self sustaining tanks?


I have one going, but i am not done yet, i don't know how long it will work.


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## Kolkri (Dec 9, 2006)

So how about some pictures?


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## shrimpo (Aug 2, 2009)

Kolkri said:


> So how about some pictures?


so far, there is only snails, shrimp, california black worms and 1 golden clams and some plants.
i am going to add 2 albino coydoras and more plants later.
its 10 gallon with fine sand substrate, light from the window, no filter, i am using only air pump at this time but i will take it out later. beside the 10 gallon pics i am adding also the pics of albino cory from 20 gallon long tank.


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## shrimpo (Aug 2, 2009)

More pictures.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

legomaniac89 said:


> I must be lucky then. I have _Rotala rotundifolia_ and _Ludwigia repens x arcuata _in my 20H, with no ferts, no CO2, nothing, and they do just fine. They even turn a nice red as they reach the lights.


Is your water hard or soft? What is your substrate?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Kolkri said:


> I would to hear if anyone is having luck with this without spending money on special lights.


michu had a 20 gallon long tank using just clip on lights to start with.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jaidexl said:


> I have a couple but they're not as pretty as Tom's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like this 1. Where did you find the wood?


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Thanks. The wood came from Jake (Badcopnofishtank).


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jaidexl said:


> Thanks. The wood came from Jake (Badcopnofishtank).


What plant is on the right? What size tank is that? Is the Amazon still in the tank? I read that amazon can even grow out of a 30 gallon tank.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

1. C. balansae

2. 30gl

3. Yes

4. It certainly can, but it can also be cut.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jaidexl said:


> Amazon certainly can outgrow tank but it can also be cut.


How do you cut it? Just pull some of the leaves off? This stunts the root growth?


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

I cut the oldest leaves near the base, hasn't caused me any problems.


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## legomaniac89 (Mar 16, 2008)

Hilde said:


> Is your water hard or soft? What is your substrate?


My water is total liquid rock. The last water report the city published said something like kH = 240ppm, gH = 350ppm. I've never seen anyone on this forum with water harder than that :icon_smil

The substrate is a potting soil with a bit of greensand mixed in, and then covered with standard Flourite. According to Diana Walstad, in a tank this low tech the soil substrate should last for 8 years+ without any water column fertilization.


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