# Hagen versus homemade formula



## jojomichael (Sep 16, 2003)

I'm using a DIY recipe in the original Hagen bottle and the bubbles come out faster into the ladder diffuser...


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## wendyv (Jan 9, 2004)

Well thanks JoJo that is good to know. Are you getting a bubble a second with this setup? Just curious as with three 2 litre bottles and one ladder I am getting about one bubble a second to one bubble every second and a half; so I was just wondering what the canister puts out.
Thanks for any replies.
Wendy


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## Rolo (Dec 10, 2003)

Jojo, what is your recipe?


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## jojomichael (Sep 16, 2003)

wendyv said:


> Well thanks JoJo that is good to know. Are you getting a bubble a second with this setup? Just curious as with three 2 litre bottles and one ladder I am getting about one bubble a second to one bubble every second and a half; so I was just wondering what the canister puts out.
> Thanks for any replies.
> Wendy


During the first week, yeah... but it's slowing down now. Maybe it's time to change the solution. After 2 weeks, it will probably be slowed down too much...


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## amanda huggenkiss (Mar 3, 2004)

I've got a Hagen set-up, but I've gotten a couple of duds in the formula packages (dead yeast, I'm guessing). I've checked all the stores in my neighbourhood and all the formula they have in stock is pushing the 18 month expiry date marked on the packages.

So I'm thinking of keeping the Hagen bottles, but making my own formula. I've seen the recipes posted all over the place, but the one piece of information I _never_ see is what _kind_ of yeast to use? Is it regular "traditional" yeast? Or "instant" or "fast-acting" yeast?

And does anyone know the purpose of the "stabilizer" that's provided with the Hagen formula?


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## wendyv (Jan 9, 2004)

Amanda, what most of the people are using from what I gather is the regular Fleishmanns and I would imagine that the "stabilizer" (my guess) is baking soda. Just a guess as I am sure that the people on these boards know more then me. The only thing I am wondering is with the small container that comes with the Hagen setup; do you add the same amount of sugar to the water; I have no idea. My recipe from these boards and others is 2 cups sugar fill the 2 litre bottle half way with hot water and shake it up real well. Add 1/2 teaspoon of yeast to a little water with a pinch of sugar in a cup and let it rise a bit. Meanwhile add cold water to the bottle almost to the line to get room temp. water; then add 1 teaspoon baking soda. When the yeast has risen a bit; rises to top of the water; add it to the bottle and add enough water to get it to the line in the bottle. Usually takes at the most about 1 hour to get it going. Works really well for about a week or so; but then the bubbles slowly decrease; so I like to make up a mixture once a week. I am thinking of going to a large pail (10 kg's) and making only up one batch instead of 3 small bottles. Guess I would have to put quite a bit of sugar into the 10 kg pail as that is like 5 bottles; since I do 2 cups per 2 litre bottle, guess I would add 10 cups of sugar to the pail; anyone know if I should also add more yeast; for ex. 2 1/2 teaspoons, and 5 teaspoons of baking soda? This is just a test; so I have no idea?
Thanks for any imput.
Wendy


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

When I refill the Hgen canister, I fill it to the line inside with sugar and then to the top line with water, then add 1/4 teaspoon fleishmans yeast, rugular I guess, and 1 teaspoon baking soda. 

You can't fit 2 cups of sugar into that canister, if you did you couldn't get much water in there to go with it.


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## corigan (Feb 22, 2004)

anonapersona said:


> When I refill the Hgen canister, I fill it to the line inside with sugar and then to the top line with water, then add 1/4 teaspoon fleishmans yeast, rugular I guess, and 1 teaspoon baking soda.
> 
> You can't fit 2 cups of sugar into that canister, if you did you couldn't get much water in there to go with it.


How fast do your bubbles come out with this setup and how long does it last for you?


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## ninoboy (Jan 26, 2004)

The baking soda or stabilizer act as the buffer. The solution will become acidic overtime and will kill the yeast solution. By adding this, you'll somewhat prolong the solution's life. 

I don't have much success using Fleishmann (spelling?) yeast. I did everything as told to activate the yeast first, etc. It takes long before the first bubble comes out and the production amount drops after 5-7 days. I switched to Redstar and get very good result. The first bubble comes out in 20-30 minutes or less, more pressure, constant and last much longer. (Both are regular active dry yeast and not super). It even starts well without proper yeast activation. I'm not sure whether my tap water has something to do with those results because I heard more people here use Fleishman.


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

start at maybe 6 to 10 bubbles a minute, then I change it at about 3 weeks.


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## d2hpeter (Mar 17, 2004)

I have 2 hagen canisters supplying one ladder in my tank, to minimize the fluctuation of co2 during replenishing. Each canister has a valve controlling its output. The sequence of replenisment is such that when one get refilled the other is at the max reaction rate. I would shut off the valve of the one being refilled so as not to disturb the flow.
I am thinking of adding one more canister to boost the output.


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## wendyv (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi d2hpeter; your name is probably peter I presume, how big is your tank that you added the two canisters system to? I was just wondering if you added the two canisters to the one ladder and had them going at the same time if you would get more bubbles using the two going at the same rate as the one? Just a curiosity. Sounds like a smart idea though to have them going at different replenishment rates.


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## d2hpeter (Mar 17, 2004)

wendyv said:


> Hi d2hpeter; your name is probably peter I presume, how big is your tank that you added the two canisters system to? I was just wondering if you added the two canisters to the one ladder and had them going at the same time if you would get more bubbles using the two going at the same rate as the one? Just a curiosity. Sounds like a smart idea though to have them going at different replenishment rates.


mine is a 2ft tank.
by the law of conservation :idea: the flowrate should increase, though not necessarily doubled. The main objective is to "smooth" the fluctuation in the co2 flow. There would be a period of zero flow following replenishment if only one canister is used.
But of course, one could really boost up the flow by connecting more canisters or have a bigger capacity reactor. The issue is how to balance flowrate and the degree of fluctuation, i think.


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

If you run two canisters into the same diffuser, as the rates decline you will eventually get two bubbles put out at the same time. They will collide, turning into a big bubble, then race to the top smashing and absorbing all bubbles in their path. Most of the gas escapes at the surface. The ladder diffuser is cheap, get two, or get two entire systems. 

IME, I was not happy with mixing DIY bottles with the ladder diffuser, somehow the bubbles were too large and much gas escaped at the top unused. 

If your tank is near 30 gallons, go on and make or buy a power diffuser and go DIY for the whole thing. Really the first thing to do is to look at your filtration to see if that is causing CO2 to escape. Changing to a canister filter or somehow reducing surface disturbance can make a big difference in CO2 retention.


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## d2hpeter (Mar 17, 2004)

anonapersona said:


> If you run two canisters into the same diffuser, as the rates decline you will eventually get two bubbles put out at the same time. They will collide, turning into a big bubble, then race to the top smashing and absorbing all bubbles in their path. Most of the gas escapes at the surface. The ladder diffuser is cheap, get two, or get two entire systems.
> 
> IME, I was not happy with mixing DIY bottles with the ladder diffuser, somehow the bubbles were too large and much gas escaped at the top unused.


don't quite understand what you mean... i hv only one tube to one ladder. Don't see why 2 bubbles can come out at the same time. I have been running this setup for months and so far i hv got a nice series of bubbles going up the ladder, and they become so small in size near the top, reducing the buoyancy so much that the bubble moves very slowly. The bubble release rate from the tube was just right to give about 1 bubble moving in each ladder without collision. In addition, i direct the output of the internal filter at one end of tank to the top of the ladder at the other end so as to enhance the co2 absorption further.

When the rate has reduced to 1 bubble every 3~4 ladder, i will start to replenish the weaker canister. I am gradually increasing this to about 1 bubble every 5~6 ladder, monitoring the health of the plants closely. By doing this I can reach an optimum rate to sustain the plant.

btw, getting 2 entire systems [which was what i did, but only one ladder is used in tank] is an obvious solution. But one must not forget that space is precious in a 20gal tank too. Aesthetics is also an important factor to consider.


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

I had run two tubes to one ladder, one from the Hagen canister, one from a DIY bottle below the tank. Not an ideal setup, as I explained, collisions and so on. 

somewhere I got the idea that that was being discussed, two bottles, one ladder. So i just wasn't understanding.


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## eds (Feb 12, 2003)

Mine is like d2h's. 2 brew bottles with their outlet tubes joined by a "T", so that one tube runs into a "bubble counter" bottle 3/4 full of water. From there, 1 tube goes to my ladder.

Seems to work fine.


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## d2hpeter (Mar 17, 2004)

eds said:


> Mine is like d2h's. 2 brew bottles with their outlet tubes joined by a "T", so that one tube runs into a "bubble counter" bottle 3/4 full of water. From there, 1 tube goes to my ladder.
> 
> Seems to work fine.


it would be better if you could put a valve on each of the brew bottle outlet tube before the "T". This enable you to shut off the bottle you gonna to replenish so as to prevent the "pressure drop" and maintain the flow to your ladder from the other bottle.


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## d2hpeter (Mar 17, 2004)

anonapersona said:


> I had run two tubes to one ladder, one from the Hagen canister, one from a DIY bottle below the tank. Not an ideal setup, as I explained, collisions and so on.
> 
> somewhere I got the idea that that was being discussed, two bottles, one ladder. So i just wasn't understanding.


one drawback i encountered about using ladder, though, is that sometimes snails get into the bubble flow path and mess it all up for a while :evil: and small fishes got trapped :x


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## Rikko (Jan 24, 2004)

I've had some mixed results with the Hagen yeast lately. Most of the store displays that are using the Hagen packages have been rotting, or something, and smelling so bloody awful that I needed to spray Windex all around the bathroom before dumping it so I didn't heave. Might explain why some of them didn't work - bad batches? Perhaps bad trans-shipping?

Anyways, I used the same ratio as the Hagen recipe in my DIY system (pop bottle) and it works great.
Hagen uses:
4oz sugar
12oz lukewarm tap water
4oz empty air at the top
1mL yeast (I've used non-quick rise baking yeast and wine yeast)
4mL baking soda

I scaled that up to my 2L pop bottle and twice now it has bubbled consistently for over 6 weeks (!!).

I'm not a huge fan of the Hagen bubble diffuser - you still end up losing bubbles, and then clog, get snails in them, you name it..
Tetra used to make a membrane type of diffuser which was just an internal reservoir with a thin membrane to allow CO2 to escape into the water directly with ZERO waste... But no mention of it anywhere (except here: http://www.tetra.de/doc/doc_download.cfm?uuid=96F2ABFF50BAEA7AF9B0BF440EF013E3&o_file_id=81 )

I'm fiddling around with somethign on my own to use that system, since I'm not big on using an additional powerhead or running it into my filter to diffuse bubbles. So far I've played around with the tube for a gravel vac and putting various things on the end without much luck. I'm thinking about trying an unlubricated condom and punching a lot of pinholes in it (I could name it "Chance"!) or maybe several, several layers of cheesecloth/nylon.


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## amanda huggenkiss (Mar 3, 2004)

I had a big supply of the Hagen mix packages, so I've been using them all up and have been fairly disappointed with the results -- maybe 1 bubble every 20 seconds-ish.

Finally tried a homemade mix (posted upthread by anonapersona) and the difference is amazing! I'm getting a bubble every 5 seconds now.

I've got two ladder/canister sets, so in the other one I'm going to try the *Jell-O recipe* posted in this thread by tommyboy22481. I'll let y'all know how it works out for me.


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

I always had a problem using colored and flavored Jell-o, it just seemes wrong to me!

You can substitute Knox gelatine and save several bucks. 

I use the Knox Blox recipe on the back of the Knox box, substituting water with 2 cups of sugar for the fruit juice in the recipe on the box.

I am now using the Blox, 1/3 of the full recipe, in large blocks to fit into my 2L juice box generator, with 1/4 teaspoon of bread yeast (no baking soda or yeast nutrient that I had been using occasionally). It tends to fillup my power reactor with gas up to 1/2 inch deep, so it may actually overdose small tanks. 1/4 recipe might be better, in fact, as it does foam some, didn't do that when I used 1/4 of the Blox.

Anyhow, 1/4 of the Blox will last 3+ weeks, so a $1.20 pack of Knox lasts for 12 weeks. 1/3 of the Blox still lasts 3 weeks runs faster, stops more suddenly, maybe just under 3 weeks in fact.


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## amanda huggenkiss (Mar 3, 2004)

Yeah, I wasn't comfortable with coloured/flavoured Jell-Os either, so I went with the Knox gelatin too. Used the same amount of sugar as the Hagen recipe calls for (1/2 cup), dissolved it and the Knox gelatin in boiling water, then added enough cold water to bring it up to the top level in the Hagen canister (approx. 2 cups total). It's in the fridge right now and should go on the tank tomorrow (with the yeast added, of course).


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

Oh, that is different. Do you think the gelatine will be solid? 

I've never used the gelatine blocks in the Hagen canister because I worry about foam ups. There is not much air space in teh Hagen canister and no external scrubber to catch a foam up. 

Keep us informed about how it goes. If you have problems, the regular bread yeast and baking soda is pretty reliable for the Hagen units. 

Have fun experimenting!


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## fedge (Mar 4, 2004)

I have heard that some people add a touch (pinch) of flour or so to a mixture and get an extension of production(of a mixture that is old and ready to stop)

I am going to try this.. as I have a hagen system (not completely pleased with it..but its OK...but im going to make my own systems soon.


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## ming (Dec 6, 2003)

I have tried to make my own formula with 2 cups sugar in a 2liter bottle and it works great. 1/4 tpn yeast.
I have heard people dumping out part of the old solution and reusing it just adding sugar and new water. Do you shake up the old solution first or is the yeast on the bottom, and then pour some out? When I look thru the 2 liter bottle, theres nothing but sugar on the bottom so I'm assuming the yeast is suspended in the water. When I need to re-fill this bottle, I'm going to try the shake up method


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## nexstar (May 14, 2004)

I am considering a couple of options. Since I have a Milwaukee PH Controller I am looking at a CO2 injection system. But I am also looking at DIY CO2.

I have the Hagen CO2 system sitting here.
What I am thinking of is ditching the ladder and using the Mini Vortex Powered Reactor in my 25g planted tank with the DIY CO2 coming in to it.
Your thoughts would be appreciated. Especially if you have used this reactor.

Another Question Can you clamp off the CO2 in a DIY system to slow down the bubbles if need be? Not stop them just reduce the flow?

Thanks
Bob


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## corigan (Feb 22, 2004)

nexstar said:


> Another Question Can you clamp off the CO2 in a DIY system to slow down the bubbles if need be? Not stop them just reduce the flow?/quote]
> 
> If you have the monetary means to go with a pressurized setup, do it, you won't be sorry. I have run both the hagen and the pressurized system and both worked well, but the pressurized is hands down a better choice. I wouldn't go back to a hagen system if someone paid me.
> 
> ...


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

corigan said:


> [If you have the monetary means to go with a pressurized setup, do it, you won't be sorry. I have run both the hagen and the pressurized system and both worked well, but the pressurized is hands down a better choice. I wouldn't go back to a hagen system if someone paid me.
> 
> As for clamping off the Co2, this is probably a pretty bad idea. I wouldn't want to see what would happen if the pressure increased over time in the yeast generator, it could be a really messy/smelly situation.
> 
> Matt


I agree.

If the aquarium is big enough to warrant the pressurized system, do it. For a 10 gallon tank, I think it is crazy to use a pressurized system, a Hagen works well enough. With over 30 gallons, pressurized is the way to go. In between, your choice, depending on your time and pocketbook. If money is not an issue, then go pressurized even for a 20 gallon tank.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

Hi all, I went ahead and tried the DIY gelatin method.... 

I used green jello and it was real jiggly when i took it out of the fridge. Then, added the water and yeast and baking soda. Room temperature could be as high as 80 degrees due to the weather and so the jello melted... is this normal? will this still work to slow down the co2 production and keep it at a steady rate?


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## GraemeK (Apr 8, 2004)

I had two Hagen units connected together on my 33gal and it was sooo hit and miss to whether i got a good mixture from both Hagen packets and my own DIY method.

I changed to a JBL pressurized system yesterday... never again will i mess with this yeast method on larger tanks! I still got one going on my 4 gal though.

G


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## zapus (May 26, 2004)

*Jello experiment*



Rikko said:


> Hagen uses:
> 4oz sugar
> 12oz lukewarm tap water
> 4oz empty air at the top
> ...


Have been using the above recipe in a 1 liter bottle for my 12 gallon tank. I decided to experiment by adding 2 envelopes of Knox gelatin after boiling in the microwave. Waited til the mixture cooled to the proper temp to add the yeast. Let it sit overnight, loosely capped. The gelatin did set up, resulting in it rising just like bread dough :icon_roll . By breakfast it was coming out of the top of the bottle, so it was relocated to the kitchen sink. By the end of breakfast it had fallen. Obvious answer is to use a bigger bottle. Has anyone else experienced this with jello CO2?


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## rcx_sk (Feb 2, 2004)

how long are you guys getting your homemade mixes to last? I've been using a home made mixture similar to this

Originally Posted by *Rikko*
_Hagen uses:
4oz sugar
12oz lukewarm tap water
4oz empty air at the top
1mL yeast (I've used non-quick rise baking yeast and wine yeast)
4mL baking soda_

_and for me the co2 only lasts 1 week. in the beginning, it would produce like 1 or 2 bubbles a second, but then towards the end of the week it falls to 1 bubble every 5 seconds untill it stops after the 1 week is up. I remember when I was using the store bought hagen mixes 2 out of the 3 packages worked and lasted for 2 weeks each._

_any tips for getting the homemade mixture to last longer?_


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## zapus (May 26, 2004)

Mine usually last 3 weeks (without the gelatin), with a pretty consistent bubble every 2-3 secs. Once it starts to get slower than that, I know it's time to get a new batch going. What kind of yeast are you using?


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## zapus (May 26, 2004)

*Wups*

Ok, so you're supposed to add the yeast AFTER the jello sets up :icon_redf


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

if you add it before, you will kill the yeast in the boiling/denaturing process.


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## zapus (May 26, 2004)

Didn't kill it because I waited until it cooled to add the yeast (but added it before the jello set up) so I had all these bubbles growing larger and larger in the jello... ever see the movie "The Blob"?


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## Rikko (Jan 24, 2004)

I scaled up and rounded off the first formula I posted and have been doing this one for a couple months now:
2L pop bottle
1.5L water
1/4 tsp yeast (both baking yeast and wine yeast yield the same results)
3 tsp baking soda
1 1/2 cup sugar

I get about 1 bubble per 3-4 seconds with this formula and after 6 weeks it drops to 1 bubble per 8 seconds. I tend to replace it around that time, but my diffuser is always full.


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## rcx_sk (Feb 2, 2004)

hmm, oh, maybe my problem is with the yeast I'm using. I check and the yeast I bought is the "highly active" rapid rise baking yeast, instead of the regular baking yeast.


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

Highly active is fine, the date is what is important. Once a packet is open, you need to store it in the refrigerator or it dies over a few months. Take note of the date when you buy it, it will expire unopened if it is old enough.


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## zapus (May 26, 2004)

Is it just me or is the champagne yeast a bit "slower" than bread yeast? I seem to get fewer bubbles per second with it (which might be better with smaller tanks), and it seems to take a bit longer getting started.


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

*brew yeasts seem to hate baking soda*

I found that both the wine yeast and the beer yeast seem to hate baking soda, I think they are suited to acid, but not suited to basic. OTOH bread yeast is fine with baking soda.


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## corigan (Feb 22, 2004)

I also find if I activate the yeast (Make sure the water is between 105-115 degrees Fareinheit) that I get awesome results. Bubbles start rolling almost instantly.

Matt


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## observant_imp (Jun 30, 2004)

Does the homemade formula smell as foul as the Hagen mix? I made my first change on a Hagen kit yesterday and the stench would gag a maggot.

Also, if I switch to the homemade mix, what will wash that smell out of the cannister and leave it safe for future use?


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## zapus (May 26, 2004)

The Hagen mix I had was so old it wouldn't work, but none of my DIY batches has had a foul odor. Perhaps you had some bacteria contamination. Seems I have heard of this from other posts, so it may be a problem on the manufacturing end. You could use a dilute bleach solution to kill the odor, but I would make sure to rinse it thoroughly so that it doesn't leach chlorine into your fresh batch and zap your yeast.


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## observant_imp (Jun 30, 2004)

Thanks Zapus. I'll try that. I'll soak it in a dechlorinator when I'm done. I was afraid to mix more--figured whatever it was would contaminate a new batch. I'm going with homemade from here on out. That stink came from the first batch in a brand new unit.


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## corigan (Feb 22, 2004)

observant_imp said:


> Thanks Zapus. I'll try that. I'll soak it in a dechlorinator when I'm done. I was afraid to mix more--figured whatever it was would contaminate a new batch. I'm going with homemade from here on out. That stink came from the first batch in a brand new unit.


There is definately going to be a yeast like odor no matter how you dice it. This is just what it smells like after a few weeks of fermenting. I don't find it real fowl though and usually just rinse with super hot water before doing another batch.

Matt


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## Rikko (Jan 24, 2004)

The odor they're describing is something I've found from the occasional Hagen mix, too. There's no words for it, but it's not the usual boozie-smellin' odor that comes off it.
Actually, it's not an odor. It's a stench. A big one. One that can cloud up inside a room and make it smell for over an hour.
I 'got rid of it' by soaking the containers in a bleach solution for the better part of an hour.
Man oh man, the smell still lingers a bit, though.


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## observant_imp (Jun 30, 2004)

Just an update. Cleaned, disinfected, dechlorinated, and used the recipe I found here. I can't believe how much faster it's bubbling. Also, must have forgotten to tighten one of them completely--no leaks but a little whiff of it--smelled yeasty rather than foul.

Homemade for me from now on. Thanks to whoever posted the recipe.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

which recipe are you referring to? there have been quite a few recipes mentioned... 


by the way, in my experience, the jello recipe is too slow...it may be good for a smaller tank say 10 gallon or a 5 gallon that doesn't need as much co2 and can last 3 months...but for my 20 gallon, i had to go back to original 2 cups sugar no jello. it works great.


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## observant_imp (Jun 30, 2004)

The one I printed out is:

sugar to first line
water to second line
1/4 tsp yeast
1 tsp baking soda

I don't know yet how long it lasts, but I'm getting bubbles fast enough so that most rows on the ladder have one.


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## Urkevitz (Jan 12, 2004)

Thats what my recipe is except I only use 1/4 tsp baking soda. I have been going 3 weeks now.


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

observant_imp said:


> The one I printed out is:
> 
> sugar to first line
> water to second line
> ...


That was what I measured from the original Hagen packets when I bought my units almost 2 years ago. 

Actually the yeast in the Hagen packet is more like 1/8 teaspoon, if the initial rate is too high, you might reduce that some the next time. By accepting a lower initial rate, you get longer production and a more even CO2 level. 

In my tanks, with HOB filters, I don't worry about the high initial rate for the filter blows off the excess.


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