# Fluorite CEC?



## Lugnut (Aug 12, 2010)

I dont think I completely understand your question. Are you asking if it hold nothing but nutrients until it cant hold any more? If so I doubt that it only hold nutrients. I read somewhere on here, but dont remember where about the process of products like Flourite taking in and releasing nutrients. Tom would probably know the answer to this as well others that are smarter than I.


----------



## willknowitall (Oct 3, 2010)

yes it absorbs up to its capacity, what every that is


----------



## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Right. I can see how it would be an unpredictable interaction. Thanks.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

i would be interested to find out its cation exchance capacity as well..


----------



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

so from one person i found this just google searching. i have no way to verify the accuracy but it does present interesting numbers

CEC (me./100g) Matrix
- -----------------------------------------------------
<0.1 Clean sand
24.3 Soil
27.0 Litter (yes cat litter)
1.7 Fluorite


and the whole article http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/substrate-jamie.html


----------



## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I saw that too. I'm not convinced about the guy's flourite number, since it is fired clay and clay is usually ~25me, that and the fact that people like Tom Barr say it has a high CEC. Testing soil CEC is just silly, because it depends almost entirely on how much clay is in it. It makes me suspicious of his results. That being said, I did every thing I could to help out my fluorite since I don't really know it's CEC is high. First I used the black sand version. since its grain size gives it a much larger surface area and therefore CEC, second I didn't wash it so to retain the dust, which would have the highest CEC of all. I bet I have 10 to 20 times the CEC this way. Unfortunately I have tons of crushed shell in my substrate so according to what I just learned about CEC my FBS is probably base saturated (full of calcium, or some other alkaline), which won;t leave a lot of room for cations. Maybe I shoulda put some zeolite in there. That stuffs CEC is through the roof.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

zeolite? im interested.. i hear laterite is pretty good. i've thought of layering my substrate with different compounds to see what happens. say for example
1.laterite
2.peat
3.soil
4.flourite to cap it all off
and see what happens, nature does this to some degree with different sediments to be sure but they all provide a different function and i know soil and peat have good cec as well as being good mediums for roots


----------



## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

I'm not sure how it works but maybe the firing burn off organics that would normally increase CEC?


And all these numbers are measuring what the substrate contains fresh out of the bag. If it's true that flourite can absorb/hold nutrients shouldn't the CEC be measure after the flourite has been "charged"?


----------



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

its supposed loaded from the factory. the analysis from the seachem website says it has stuff in it.. whether that's full capacity or not i have no clue


----------



## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> its supposed loaded from the factory. the analysis from the seachem website says it has stuff in it.. whether that's full capacity or not i have no clue


The seachem site doesn't say anything about it being loaded out of the bag. It has it's chemical makeup listed, but that doesn't mean any of it is available for plants. It is supposed to be inert after all. 

So maybe after it has a chance to absorb nutrients it will have a high CEC rating. After all, you wouldn't say carbon doesn't absorb odours just because it hasn't absorbed anything when it's fresh out of the bag.

I'm not saying anyone who has posted is right or wrong, I'm just curious how it works. I do know however, that fresh flourite hasn't grown plants very well for me - without additional dosing, but my many years old flourite works great. Whether this is fluke or not, I can't say.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

i'ev somehow managed to screw mine up.. it worked geat before i nuked my tank.. after excel dosing to get rid of worms and snails, and use of flocculants.. my flourite is worhtless.. my plants all look like poop with EI dosing high c02 and now medium lighting

they used to look awesome with poor c02 seachem liquid ferts that i severely underdosed without knowing it. and aweful lights.. i can throw a root tab in and watch a plant explode.. but it lasts a few weeks before it looks pitiful again. my rotalas look aweful.. i recently made some peat gelcaps and placed them around a few plants to see what happens.. it helps

so i live flourite it worked great.. just on't nuke ur tank with excel and flocculants and expect it to work right again


----------



## R_Barber001 (Oct 5, 2011)

Gold Finger said:


> I saw that too. I'm not convinced about the guy's flourite number, since it is fired clay and clay is usually ~25me, that and the fact that people like Tom Barr say it has a high CEC. Testing soil CEC is just silly, because it depends almost entirely on how much clay is in it. It makes me suspicious of his results. That being said, I did every thing I could to help out my fluorite since I don't really know it's CEC is high. First I used the black sand version. since its grain size gives it a much larger surface area and therefore CEC, second I didn't wash it so to retain the dust, which would have the highest CEC of all. I bet I have 10 to 20 times the CEC this way. Unfortunately I have tons of crushed shell in my substrate so according to what I just learned about CEC my FBS is probably base saturated (full of calcium, or some other alkaline), which won;t leave a lot of room for cations. Maybe I shoulda put some zeolite in there. That stuffs CEC is through the roof.


I read that zeolite absorbs the fertilizer from the water column when used in filtration. Is this true? If so, is it bad/good?


----------



## takadi (Dec 13, 2010)

I've contemplated using zeolite and even used carbon for the longest time as a substrate additive. Both have insanely high CEC, especially carbon. I'm just wondering how easily the plant roots would have access to the nutrients locked inside them but I'm pretty sure that won't be an issue considering how effective inoculated charcoal additives to soil are (see biochar or terra preta)


----------



## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

It should work great. Remember that zeolite is sold as ammonia adsorbent; "AMMO Chips" or whatever brand name and that we know that it does this very very efficiently. What interests me is the potential to adsorb the nutrient from the water column when it is in a high production phase (spike) and store it in reserve in the substrate where the plants can use it but the fish are not burdened with it. I don't know why it is not commonly used as a substrate or sub-substrate for this purpose.


----------



## takadi (Dec 13, 2010)

"Where and how the zeolite was formed is an important consideration for aquariums. Most Northern hemisphere natural zeolites were formed when molten lava came in contact with sea water, thereby 'loading' the zeolite with Na (sodium) sacrificial ions. These sodium ions will speciate with other ions in solution, thus the takeup of nitrogen in ammonia, with the release of the sodium. "

I saw this on wikipedia but of course it has to be taken with a grain of salt (no pun intended)


----------



## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I'd take credit for, the pun.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Gold Finger said:


> I saw that too. I'm not convinced about the guy's flourite number, since it is fired clay and clay is usually ~25me, that and the fact that people like Tom Barr say it has a high CEC. Testing soil CEC is just silly, because it depends almost entirely on how much clay is in it. It makes me suspicious of his results. That being said, I did every thing I could to help out my fluorite since I don't really know it's CEC is high. First I used the black sand version. since its grain size gives it a much larger surface area and therefore CEC, second I didn't wash it so to retain the dust, which would have the highest CEC of all. I bet I have 10 to 20 times the CEC this way. Unfortunately I have tons of crushed shell in my substrate so according to what I just learned about CEC my FBS is probably base saturated (full of calcium, or some other alkaline), which won;t leave a lot of room for cations. Maybe I shoulda put some zeolite in there. That stuffs CEC is through the roof.


Jamie is correct, I over stated it's CEC for sure.
SMS, Kitty liter ADA AS all have much higher CEC.


----------

