# Ammannia senegalensis problems



## sketch804 (Mar 2, 2011)

So I have some ammania gracilis _(Ammannia senegalensis correct ID: edit)_ that I received a bit ago from a great seller. Now I have it and it finally adapted to my water but it grows sorta odd. Now I am not sure which place to post this in since it might be a fert issue. Now when my ammania gracilis grows it has GREAT color all around, it's not the fastest growing by any means but it's leaves will curl backwards from the top down to the underside of the leaf. This only appears on older growth but looks fine when it has new growth on it. 

My water is; PH 6.4 - 5.5 (co2 swing), I dose EI for the most part (PO4 is over 2ppm, NO3 is around 5ppm I think, I dose Miller Microplex, and sometimes extra Iron/FE+2) and I have a great deal of light over it also..

Any ideas??

I'll post a picture later today.

Thanks all!


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## rballi (Mar 4, 2010)

I had the very same issue and had to toss it, I am thinking it doesn't like direct, bright lighting, the pieces that were shaded seem to do better...would like I hear from someone who knows what thy are talking about though...


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## sketch804 (Mar 2, 2011)

well I see many places that say it needs high/decent light. Any of mine that's in the shade doesn't seem to do to much as far as growth goes. But then again I may be wrong. Ya i really wanna figure this one out as this is one of my favorite plants. 

Thanks for the input!


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

My old nemesis, Ammania Gracilis.

I had something similar, but much more severe. At the same time, I also had some algae that normally indicates phosphorus deficiency; even though I knew I had more than enough P (it's in my tapwater in addition to EI dosing). Strangely, extra P did help a bit, but not much. Never was able to solve it over several months, and the Ammania got to be in such poor shape that I had to toss it.

But soon the same symptoms started appearing in other plants. After some investigation, I found that between my fish load (high but considered acceptable) and EI dosing, my nitrates were testing at a peak of 150ppm before each water change! Phosphates were also in the 20-30ppm range. Doubting the accuracy of the tests, I weighed my daily feed with a gram scale, and figured out how much KNO3/KH2PO4 it was equivalent to. Running that through Wet's calculator along with ferts, estimated consumption, and water changes, the predicted results matched the tests.

After doing the same checks on the rest of my tanks, it turns out fish food alone provides more than enough N/P in all of them. So I stopped dosing it completely. I kept the micros the same, and added enough K2SO4 to make up for the K that would otherwise be provided by KNO3 and KH2PO4. No problems at all since.

I haven't tried Ammania again, but I strongly suspect that ridiculously excessive amounts of N was the problem. Seems like it may at very least interfere with P absorption.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Mine always did nicely at lower lighting, same for the Nesaea.
I had a shop light on a 55 gal tank and it did wonderful and got massive.

It did well in my 120 Gal recently. I wanted it out in the front but it became too large and unruly.

If you reduce the light, then the demand for CO2/ferts is also reduced.

It can certainly handle low light.


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## sketch804 (Mar 2, 2011)

DarkCobra said:


> My old nemesis, Ammania Gracilis.
> But soon the same symptoms started appearing in other plants. After some investigation, I found that between my fish load (high but considered acceptable) and EI dosing, my nitrates were testing at a peak of 150ppm before each water change! Phosphates were also in the 20-30ppm range. Doubting the accuracy of the tests, I weighed my daily feed with a gram scale, and figured out how much KNO3/KH2PO4 it was equivalent to. Running that through Wet's calculator along with ferts, estimated consumption, and water changes, the predicted results matched the tests.





plantbrain said:


> Mine always did nicely at lower lighting, same for the Nesaea.
> I had a shop light on a 55 gal tank and it did wonderful and got massive.
> 
> It did well in my 120 Gal recently. I wanted it out in the front but it became too large and unruly.
> ...


Hmm, didn't know it did well in low light, but there's two accounts right off the bat that had it do well in low light. I like the high light tank I have now so I doubt I will reduce the light, maybe just find another place for it to grow. I think I will try to adjust my ferts a little also because I think my NO3 is outa wack and needs to be reduced just a tad. last time I reduced my NO3 1/2 as much as was using, it did not turn out that well and I had ugly and not healthy growth. Thanks for the input everyone. So now I just have to figure out if this is more of a light situation or a fert one. Oh also forgot to mention that I have VERY soft water and use a bit of GH Booster to help give it a little GH. Also, does anyone that is growing/has grown this plant had low PH (6<) or a higher one (6>)??

Also here is the picture I was searching for yesterday: (oh and the R mac in the background just moved to a better light spot so that's the reason that it has crappy looking leaves)..









Well also I ran outa CO2 so my lights were off for almost a couple days, so it will take a few days for everything to recover and for me to trim it up..I should have covered the tank when I left the lights off because the light coming in the window made new leggy growth just trying to get any light it could.


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

i wanted to bring this back up.

when i got mine it was super pink. it now has hints of green fading in. I have it planted in a high light area. high co2. i dose fert per the EI.

I was thinking of moving it to a medium light end of the tank after reading this.

Do you all think that this will help bring the pink back?

thx
c


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

Mine is bright pink and grows probably 3-4" per week. The colour is Easter bunny pink. Don't know how else to describe it. No dosing yet as the tank is new. 100-150umol led lighting, co2 and AS Amazonia new. 

The nasaea behind it is green yellow with some slight pink. Not sure if that's good or not.


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## manini (Oct 18, 2007)

Interesting. Currently, my plants are doing well in a ph of 7.5 with 2 - 39W T5HO (TEK/Giessmmen) on a 40B tank. I am using 2 yrs old ASI with CO2 and dosing with pferts N,P,K,and M. There are no other livestock in the tank except for 6 otos and 2 SAEs. 

In my medium light set up (30B with 2x24W T5HO) I actually dose a little less than recommended. It tends to be a slower grower in the 30B and the pH is roughly at 7.6.
Hope this helps out.


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## sketch804 (Mar 2, 2011)

hmm, now this is the plant I got from you actually..now I have WAY more light than that in my tank. I am running 4x T-5HO 54w and another light but it doesn't shed light on these plants. Now one other thing I am thinking is the PH is too acidic where mine is 6.4 base and 5.5 with CO2 on. But I think I will have to try a bit less light on this plant, it seems to be the key, I just have not had a chance to move it yet.

Thanks for the help though. I am just confused on this one, but I will figure it out or just start over again.


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## catwat (Aug 24, 2008)

sketch804 said:


> Oh also forgot to mention that I have VERY soft water and use a bit of GH Booster to help give it a little GH.


How soft is your water and how much GH Booster do you add?


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## sketch804 (Mar 2, 2011)

catwat said:


> How soft is your water and how much GH Booster do you add?


Couldn't tell you a number but here's a quote from the testing they do at the water treatment plant:


> Calcium Hardness --> Palintest®: Calcicol (testing method) --> 10 mg/L


_Even they call it soft to very soft._

And I have been told by other fish keepers around my town and they agree we have pretty soft water. So I change 50% on a 40 gal tank and I add 1/3 TBS of GH booster. I dunno if this is a decent amount for my water..Oh and I also add smaller amount than I have heard other people dose due to the fact that I am trying to keep plants that enjoy soft water.


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## catwat (Aug 24, 2008)

Ammania sp tend to do better in moderately soft water, I'd say a GH of around 6-8. If your water is very soft, that would probably put it in the GH 1-2, maybe 3 range, which would be great for softer water species.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

That pic does not look big enough nor is the stem so red and the leaves so small to be A gracilius. 

A gracilius gets huge and stems are nearly pinky finger, larger than a no2# pencil in diameter. 

The plant above is likely some other species being sold as A gracilius. The above plants grows slower and is redder and smaller. I got a few stms of that one and stuffed it in my Blyxa forest where is grows slow and nice, but it's NOT A. gracilius.

Might be some varietal thing, but I think it's more than likely the Nesaea genus. I'd need to flower it etc for that.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

catwat said:


> Ammania sp tend to do better in moderately soft water, I'd say a GH of around 6-8. If your water is very soft, that would probably put it in the GH 1-2, maybe 3 range, which would be great for softer water species.


KH was 11, Gh was 24 degrees, it got over 10mm stem and a 5" dia crown.
But if it's some other species than A gracilus..........perhaps, but for A gracilus......... I can falsify this claim.


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## sketch804 (Mar 2, 2011)

well tom, this plant look a lot better when grown as it should be. I got this one from manini and he seems to have a pretty good ID on his plants but I may be wrong. Great seller either way. When I first recieved this plant it looked different and the leaves were larger but stem was the same diameter. Ya I was pretty sure this plant gets pretty large after a while like yours, so I guess only time will tell on how this one will span out, over the next few weeks I will try an assortment of things posted here and others from my memory and we will see..

Hmm ya I was afraid that my water was too soft for this plant. Maybe I will add a bit more GH Booster next water change and see if it helps. Or maybe its time to go buy a bunch of soft water plants


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

Sketch, i have a 120g and add 3 tbs GH booster evey 50% WC on sundays

unless im doing something wrong, you should be adding in the neighborhood of a full tbs each 50% WC


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

sketch804 said:


> well tom, this plant look a lot better when grown as it should be.


That pic is NOT A. gracilius.

I have had both plants, the one above is something other than A. gracilius.

http://itp.lucidcentral.org/id/aqua...d_Plants/media/html/fact_sheets/ammannia.html

This pic shows the difference with the stem and the leaves(A. gracilus leaves are longer(2x and at least 2-3x wider, the stem is nearly 2-3x larger as well and the color is more orangy red than deep red.

http://linago.hotmail.ru/text/1-15.htm

This is not to say that the plant manini has is not nice, only that it grows slower and is something other than A gracilus which is a large and dramatic plant.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

ChadRamsey said:


> Sketch, i have a 120g and add 3 tbs GH booster evey 50% WC on sundays
> 
> unless im doing something wrong, you should be adding in the neighborhood of a full tbs each 50% WC


I only add about 1 table spoon 2x a week to my 120 and my GH is very low, about 2 degrees from the tap.


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## sketch804 (Mar 2, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> That pic is NOT A. gracilius.
> 
> I have had both plants, the one above is something other than A. gracilius.
> 
> ...


_Ammannia senegalensis now_ this is the right ID on this plant, so now I see what this plant is about, seems to be a light lover but just as demanding as the aforementioned ID. Thanks much for that! yes the real A. gracilus has thick stem and doesn't stand up to anything I have, that is crazy thick!

Now I know a person around here that adds 1/3 tsp (I believe) to 29gal for weekly changes. So I think I am hitting around the same dose with that, though I am always interested to hear how much people add. It seems there is not really a set dosing amount of this it depends on the what the person is trying to achieve, but I do try to change it up every so often to see effects on plants and the system.


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## manini (Oct 18, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> That pic is NOT A. gracilius.
> 
> I have had both plants, the one above is something other than A. gracilius.
> 
> ...


Hey Tom. Since you have both plants, can you post photos of your own plants. Possibly plants side by side. It would be much easier for me to see the difference. I was taught that A. gracilis was the thinner stem plant years ago. I just need clarification. According to these other photos, my guess is that I stand corrected. Plants that I did sell were A. senegalensis.


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## manini (Oct 18, 2007)

Here are a few photos of my own plants. They were grown all emerged and now showing there submerged growth. Sketch, sorry for selling you a misidentified plant.

Ammania gracilis









Ammania senegalensis









Ammania gracilis on the left and senegalensis on the right.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

manini said:


> Here are a few photos of my own plants. They were grown all emerged and now showing there submerged growth. Sketch, sorry for selling you a misidentified plant.
> 
> Ammania gracilis
> 
> ...


The Senegalensis is still something else it would seem, at leats what use to be sold years ago as senegalensis.

A. gracilius is a huge plant.
I have the above A senegalensis I got from you.
I am not a taxonomist and I do not have that much passion for the topic.
But I know my plants and how they grow, look, behave etc.

I tossed the Ammannia in my 180 Gal and they do excellent but growth is much slower than A gracilus did even with 1/4th the umol light intensity.

I just got some more A gracilus which appears like your A gracilius above.
Shauan W has some A gracilius locally that was positively ID's(shaun did the Lucid on line aquatic plant key FYI) I had some but it just got too large for the 120, but less picky. 

I do not know what biotype of varietal type your senegalensis, might be a new species....but here is the good news: it's got a nicer red color and a much slower rate of growth than the old type!!

It did not fair as well in my 120 Gal, but does great in my 180. 
Differences between the tanks: CO2 is about 10-20ppm higher in the 180 and the light is about 40% lower.

The Erio Type 3 does better in the 180 and so does Ammannia in general and a few other plants. Both tanks have the same bulbs and the same filtration same water changes, same dosing, same sediment, same shrimp and fish loading.

This rules out any Ferts and livestock, tap water, bulb types, light fixture brands.

This means it's an issue of space/height of the tank before trimming........CO2 perhaps and light intensity. It is NOT and issue of dosing, but dosing can have dependency and indirect effects on light/CO2 also.

I'll give some to Shaun so he can ID the plant. Or, if you have any decent flower pics, that would be helpful. In the past, A senegalensis was pretty similar to gracilus but shorter leaves and similar color and stem size, maybe a little smaller etc.

It becomes very hard to say what is what if you include different varietal types of a single species, which very well be the case here. We select out the types we like and toss the ones we do not.


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## manini (Oct 18, 2007)

Interesting. So its possible that my A. senegalensis isn't what it is also. Currently they are both growing in the same tank. I know that my A. gracilis will get a deeper red than any of the photos that I've seen before so it may not be A. gracilis also? Starting to really hate these Ammanias. Just irritated cause I really dont know what they possibly are.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

manini said:


> Interesting. So its possible that my A. senegalensis isn't what it is also. Currently they are both growing in the same tank. I know that my A. gracilis will get a deeper red than any of the photos that I've seen before so it may not be A. gracilis also? Starting to really hate these Ammanias. Just irritated cause I really dont know what they possibly are.


Dude, I'm pretty certain you have your ammanias reversed. Senegalensis is in the first pic and gracilis is in the second one.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

sketch804 said:


> Hmm, didn't know it did well in low light, but there's two accounts right off the bat that had it do well in low light. I like the high light tank I have now so I doubt I will reduce the light, maybe just find another place for it to grow. I think I will try to adjust my ferts a little also because I think my NO3 is outa wack and needs to be reduced just a tad. last time I reduced my NO3 1/2 as much as was using, it did not turn out that well and I had ugly and not healthy growth. Thanks for the input everyone. So now I just have to figure out if this is more of a light situation or a fert one. Oh also forgot to mention that I have VERY soft water and use a bit of GH Booster to help give it a little GH. Also, does anyone that is growing/has grown this plant had low PH (6<) or a higher one (6>)??
> 
> Also here is the picture I was searching for yesterday: (oh and the R mac in the background just moved to a better light spot so that's the reason that it has crappy looking leaves)..
> 
> ...


I'm a big fan of high light tanks and use more than what's commonly referred to as overkill on this forum. But if I were you, I'd definitely cut the light down. When you get leaf curl that badly, there's simply too much light. 

I'd also recommend you drop the PO4 level back a notch.


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## manini (Oct 18, 2007)

snausage said:


> Dude, I'm pretty certain you have your ammanias reversed. Senegalensis is in the first pic and gracilis is in the second one.


That is what I thought also...but...

that is what I mean... Larger plant is from what is posted on tpt is A.gracilis and smaller plant is possibly a form of A. senegalensis. First photo is the larger more robust, thick stemmed A. gracilis. Thinner plant that was sold to sketch is a form of A. senegalensis. Which is the second photo. Which means they are labeled correctly.

Really hate identifying these plants....hahahaha!


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## sketch804 (Mar 2, 2011)

ChadRamsey said:


> Sketch, i have a 120g and add 3 tbs GH booster evey 50% WC on sundays
> 
> unless im doing something wrong, you should be adding in the neighborhood of a full tbs each 50% WC


 Crap, just fig.d out that I only use 1 tsp instead of 1 tbs for my 50% water change on a 40 breeder, I know my GH is low. Maybe that could be an issue for my odd growth. 




snausage said:


> I'm a big fan of high light tanks and use more than what's commonly referred to as overkill on this forum. But if I were you, I'd definitely cut the light down. When you get leaf curl that badly, there's simply too much light.
> 
> I'd also recommend you drop the PO4 level back a notch.


Now, too much light? at some points I don't have enough due to lower leaves I have on some plants dieing. The plants themselves look great but when I get a really packed 'bush' of plants that happens. I have one other plant that does this in the same tank, H. Sunset, and Tom Barr believes this to be too high light if my memory serves me correctly. But, this is (I think) a high light sp. and others have this one in high light I have seen.

PO4? why do you say that one? I keep my PO4 up to try and combat GSA and GDA on the glass, but I think my problem with that might be Mg rather than PO4, but that's another story. Last time I did cut back in PO4 I did see more algae on the glass. Mine is still growing odd but my CO2 levels are messed up ATM so, ya somethings gonna suffer.




manini said:


> Here are a few photos of my own plants. They were grown all emerged and now showing there submerged growth. Sketch, sorry for selling you a misidentified plant.


Hey Manini, It's all good I don't mind. All's well that ends well, and this is far from over it seems on this mystery. I just always have to make sure of an ID on things I get when I have a question. And nice pix of them both. I have a few problems going on with my tank ATM so I will have to figure a few things out before I can fix this one plant.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The old school types of these two were mostly different in terms of the leaf blade length, the senegal was shorter, even a tad wider. the A gracilius just turned into a monster plant, getting a good 5-6" across.

Both have very "pithy" aerhyncymenous sponge like stems.
This is done to conserve carbon and resources, and provide a good O2 ventilation system to the roots. 

These tend to be large for both species.

These latest two types tend to be much smaller stems and the color is deeper red. 

I stuffed some of the A gracilius I got from Manini in the Blyxa forest in my 180, it recovered fine and does well in that tank. It'll be a bit yet, but I got some emergent senegal from another source I know is the pithy type. 
We may end up with 2 species and 2 different biotypes, or 4 different species. 

Hard to say. I have room in my 180 after I removed the Lace plants that got out of control. I like the types from Manini since they grow slower, these seem a bit pickier and I think they behave more like Nesaea than Ammannia. 
Interesting and better to have different stuff nonetheless. I've got a lot of experience with A gracilius and fair amount with senegalensis and the smaller cuttings bring back stunted tips I've gotten from others etc. 
This red stem type is something I've not had before.

It's also a redder type of plant, develops better deeper red.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

sketch804 said:


> Crap, just fig.d out that I only use 1 tsp instead of 1 tbs for my 50% water change on a 40 breeder, I know my GH is low. Maybe that could be an issue for my odd growth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have soft American River water so GH booster works fine. The plants grow well, but I moved them to the 180 where they do better, less light(like 1/2).

They are stuffed in the back:









I yanked out the Lace plants and tossed some pantanal, Erio type 3 which also colored up/grows better than the 120.
Since both tanks get the same dosing of ferts, have the same ATI lights, same O2 ppm, same filtration, same fish loading.......the CO2 is lower in the 120 and the light is higher, tank is shallower...........light/CO2 seems to be the main issues.

The double check test would be the reduced the light intensity in the 120 and amp the CO2 up a bit more, then return the plants back to the 120 and see if they are okay.
If so, this would be a confirmation of the issue in my tanks and would be independent of any dosing of ferts etc.

Still, even without doing that, the plants do much better in the 180 and the dosing is the same ppm week after week etc. 
I do muck around and trim the 120 much more though.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Follow up on the 2 types, this one on the Right is the normal type A gracilius.
The one on the left is the narrow red stem type:


















Not the stem size difference, it's much larger for the normal type and the leaves are longer and much wider. Branching is more common in the narrow small type. 

A senegalensis is similar to the normal A gracilius but shorter leaves and slightly smaller over all.


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## nitin (Apr 13, 2017)

I just received parcel of "Ammania Senegalensis" plants but to my surprise they were green in colour. So i called the dealer and he told me after they are planted in aquarium the colour will change to orange red. Is it true???


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