# The case of the mysterious dead Endler's



## Bonefish (Mar 14, 2009)

Maybe you guys can help me figure out what happened. I'm pretty upset about this because the Endler's are my favorite part of my 2.5 gallon.

_Tank stats:_
*Size:* 2.5 gallon
*Lighting: *10 W CF
*Temp:* Around 72-74 F (my 10W Marineland heater sucks)
*Substrate:* ADA Amazonia I&II
*Ferts:* Excel line except for Trace, very low doses on Mon & Wed (except for during water changes when I spot-treat BBA with Excel)
*Food:* Aqueon Tropical Flakes and possibly baby RCS
*Plants:* Low-light, mostly crypts, fairly heavily planted towards the back
*Fauna:* 3 (now 2) male Endlers, lots of RCS, one big ramshorn, lots of baby MTS

_History:_

I bought four lovely male black bar Endler's this summer. One of them did what Endler's do best and jumped out of the tank within the first two weeks. After rigging up a tank cover, the remaining three seemed to do just fine. Bright colors, healthy appetites and all. They appeared healthy over the last few months.

As of this afternoon, I'm down to two Endler's. I found the picked-over skeleton of the missing one on the bottom of the tank.  (Thanks for the cleanup, shrimp and snails!) He looked fine when I fed the fish last night and I have no idea what could have killed him. I'm worried about disease or aggression in my tank.

Water parameters tested out fine. Tank is about 73 F, nitrate up a tiny bit probably due to the dead fish but still in the safe range, and no ammonia.

_My theories:_

Last week I accidentally siphoned one of the Endler's into the sink during a water change. I quickly scooped him up and put him back into the tank and treated with some StressCoat. He seemed okay after that. Now I'm wondering if he is the one that died - maybe he was injured worse than I thought?

I also noticed one of them "flashing" against the leaves prior to the death, but only very rarely and not really "itching" the way I've seen other fish scratch when they have external parasites. It almost seemed more like he was attacking the leaves. One of the remaining males -- the aggressive one -- has done this once or twice, but when I examine both remaining fish with a flashlight, I see absolutely no signs of velvet. They're not breathing fast or clamping their fins either.

Actually, one of them is flaring his fins and showing off against his reflection. Both remaining males are still displaying incredibly vivid color, and the one with the brightest colors is the one puffing his fins out and strutting around. I saw him nip at the other fish once or twice. He also gets into the darkest corner and swims furiously up and down. Has anyone here heard of male Endler's killing each other? I thought they were supposed to be peaceful, but now I'm worried that my males have turned into jerks. Never really saw any signs of aggression before, though. They would flare at each other on occasion but that was it.

Don't know what to do next. I added some StressCoat and Melafix as a precaution, but I'm loathe to treat with medication when I'm not sure there are any symptoms to begin with. Don't want to add a new fish yet either. I guess I'll wait a few weeks and see what happens. 

People who are familiar with Endler's, help me out! Your advice is welcome. I don't want to lose my remaining two fish.

Bah, it's unfortunate. I can't really afford to order another Endler's, and I don't know anyone who has them locally. I guess I could put a guppy in with them. (Anyone have experience with mixed guppy/Endler shoals? What other small fish would do okay with the Endler's?)

Edit to add: It could be a tank size thing, but I've kept 3 male feeder gups together in a tank this size with no problems before, and the 3 male Endler's appeared to get along fine.


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## amcoffeegirl (May 26, 2009)

if fish are itching i would lean toward ich. it can be in the gills where you cant see it. do you add salt to your tanks? It may just be the one that was injured also. when my mollies would swim up and down the tank wall i would give them salt and they would mellow out. do the gills appear open or swollen?


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## Bonefish (Mar 14, 2009)

They're not itching much; I only saw it once or twice, and when I sat down to watch them for about half an hour today, I didn't see it again. Nothing visible on the outside, but I didn't realize ich could be in the gills. Gills are looking fine and breathing appears normal otherwise.

No salt in the tank - I have some I could use, though. Do you know how much is safe to add to a tank with plants? I don't want to fry any of the sensitive ones like the java fern.

I did see the two remaining guys "dancing" at each other tonight... I wonder if they've suddenly hit fishie puberty or something.


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## amcoffeegirl (May 26, 2009)

Put in one teaspoon and watch them for more itching. im happy to hear you like endlers. they are fun fish. the dancing is cool and establishes dominance in males. too bad you dont have a female and a 10gallon tank. then you could make more endlers.


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## Bonefish (Mar 14, 2009)

Will do! Tomorrow is water change day anyway, so it'll be easy to pre-mix some of the salt in the treated water.

The Endler's are great! They're really the highlight of that tank, and it's been fun to watch them (and a bummer to lose some of them, too). I'm just worried that they've suddenly turned aggressive and maybe can't work out their pecking order. This is the most dancing and displaying by the guys I've ever seen... haven't seen them nipping yet, but I wonder if the dead one was being harassed by the others. The two surviving males are brilliantly colored, and I've read that that's a sign of dominance. I hope they can work out their hierarchy!

Haha, yeah, that's the whole reason I have only males -- add a female and my nano would be overflowing with fry in no time.


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## flowmsp (Feb 6, 2010)

Could have died from age maybe? Not sure on their lifespan.


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## AoxomoxoA (Apr 22, 2010)

I would think Ich would have shown itself earlier. 
If it was Ich, I treat it with heat (86F or higher). Some use salt, but I can usually beat it with heat alone. Careful with that salt.


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## amcoffeegirl (May 26, 2009)

Ich can be brought to your tank by transfering plants from others. If she added anything new to the tank. i use salt in all my livebearer tanks at a dose of 1tablespoon per 5 gallons. even in my planted tanks with guppy grass and java moss. so i am very comfortable to advise one teaspoon for her 2.5gallon. A heat influx may indeed kill her moss. i also use heat up to 89degrees for my guppy only tank to rid ich. i like salt it promotes healthy gill function and adds electrolytes. I dont think it is probably ich but adding salt will help with alot of stress issues.


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## Sharkfood (May 2, 2010)

Salt is generally a bad idea for planted tanks, but it depends on what plants you have. Low doses are usually ok for the short term, but low doses generally don't do much to ich either unless coupled with heat. (Which sometimes makes me wonder if it was really just the heat that makes the difference). My local chain stores religiously preach the use of aquarium salt, and their tanks are like factories for mass producing ich. I personally stopped using salt in non brackish tanks about 15 years ago. Some still swear by it though, and in low doses it won't hurt most plants.

Although its not as likely for ich to transfer in on plants as with new fish (especially if you rinse them), it's definately possible. Quarantining plants for a few days at typical aquarium temperatures will kill off any tomites that may have avoided being rinsed off.

IME flashing is usually a sign of velvet.


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## amcoffeegirl (May 26, 2009)

Luckily ive never dealt with velvet at all.


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