# Desperately trying to figure out why shrimp keep dying



## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

How do you have 0 nitrate? is my first thought. I would have to guess you didn't cycle your tank then by adding shrimp and shrimp food it started the cycling process because I have never seen a tank with 0 nitrates in any other situation. That or you are doing the nitrate test incorrect and need to shake the living hell out of the reagent like your life depended on it for 1 min not 30 sec. You may find you have like 100ppm nitrate after retesting its a common mistake.

Dan


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## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

Dan nailed it. Anytime I see 0 nitrates, it tells me the test wasn't done correctly - especially when taking about cycling a tank. I hate that freaking test, and I'm pretty sure all of us have done this at least once...

While Otto's are fairly sensitive, they can handle higher nitrate levels than most shrimp. Most likely, your shrimp are dieing from bacterial infection (symptoms are cloudy looking) as a result of nitrate poisoning. 

See if you can get a proper reading on nitrates and do an initial large water change. Personally, I would then plan on many smaller water changes reach week until the shrimp have recovered. Just make sure the temp of water going in is the same or very slightly warmer than the tank so as not to force molting. If you have melafix, catappa leaves, or similar laying around, I'd toss that in there too.

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## KWaters (May 1, 2017)

Either your tank isn't cycled, or like others have said, you've got high nitrates and are not doing the test properly. Even with pre-cycled media, three days is not enough time to cycle a tank before adding shrimp.


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## awesometim1 (Oct 31, 2013)

I'm thinking of another possibility where the GH is too high, they could be having trouble molting and that explains the slow and steady shrimp death because they don't all molt at the same time. It also explains the cloudy exoskeleton. Try to find out more information about your water parameters and find it if there's any copper in the water and whether you need to add calcium and iodine. 


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

What's the expiration dates on the API bottles?

Do you have a TDS meter by any chance?

Was the 5g tank new or used when you purchased it?

Has either tank been treated with copper?

Can we know the following information about both tanks?

Substrate used
Decorations (anything besides driftwood?)
Water source
Water source parameters (if different to tank)

How old are the tanks
How are the living shrimp acting?


Can you provide photos of the tanks?


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## air10force (May 12, 2017)

Dman911 said:


> How do you have 0 nitrate? is my first thought. I would have to guess you didn't cycle your tank then by adding shrimp and shrimp food it started the cycling process because I have never seen a tank with 0 nitrates in any other situation. That or you are doing the nitrate test incorrect and need to shake the living hell out of the reagent like your life depended on it for 1 min not 30 sec. You may find you have like 100ppm nitrate after retesting its a common mistake.
> 
> Dan


I'll try to retest tomorrow. I still don't think that is the issue becuase the 20 G has been cycled for at least 2 years and has healthy fish in it. I put up a divider to make sure they couldn't eat the shrimp tho.



KWaters said:


> Either your tank isn't cycled, or like others have said, you've got high nitrates and are not doing the test properly. Even with pre-cycled media, three days is not enough time to cycle a tank before adding shrimp.


It's been like 3 months now, so I'm sure the tank is cycled. The 20 G is definitely cycled, it has had fish in it for a couple of years.



awesometim1 said:


> I'm thinking of another possibility where the GH is too high, they could be having trouble molting and that explains the slow and steady shrimp death because they don't all molt at the same time. It also explains the cloudy exoskeleton. Try to find out more information about your water parameters and find it if there's any copper in the water and whether you need to add calcium and iodine.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I thought that too, but I have seen some molted shells in the tanks.



Zoidburg said:


> What's the expiration dates on the API bottles?
> 
> Do you have a TDS meter by any chance?
> 
> ...


I'll have to check the API dates to make sure. I just bought them so I would assume they are fine.

I currently do not have a TDS meter.

The 5G was new.

As far as I know, niether tank has been treated with copper. I suspected copper might be the issue so I ran the copper test a few times on both tanks and got 0 each time.

Both tanks have a fine black substrate, I can't recall the brand off the top of my head so I'll have to check next time I go to my LFS.

No decorations, just plants and driftwood.

Water is tap water treated with seachem prime. I tested the water parameters coming out of the tap and they were pretty much identical to the tank water.

The 20G is at least 2 years old, the 5G is about 3 months old now.

The shrimp seem to act normal until they start dying. They seem to just eat the biofilm in the tank.

I can try to get some pics up either tomorrow evening or saturday morning.


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## BigMek (Dec 6, 2016)

Do you have planaria? Check the glass after lights out. Planaria, especially the white ones, will hunt and kill shrimp. Ive had it happen and the deaths were remarkably similar to yours.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

How did you cycle the tank? Ammonia or fish in? without food for the bacteria even after cycling it will die off. I really am suspect on that nitrate test though.

Dan


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## air10force (May 12, 2017)

BigMek said:


> Do you have planaria? Check the glass after lights out. Planaria, especially the white ones, will hunt and kill shrimp. Ive had it happen and the deaths were remarkably similar to yours.


I haven't seen any as far as I can tell. I have seen a couple worms in the 5G over time, but they were tiny and didn't have a triangle head, so I think they're detritus. I've also seen some copepods in the 5G but from what I've read they are supposedly harmless.



Dman911 said:


> How did you cycle the tank? Ammonia or fish in? without food for the bacteria even after cycling it will die off. I really am suspect on that nitrate test though.
> 
> Dan


The 20G was already cycled and had fish when I got it from a friend who was moving, so I don't know how it was cycled. For the 5G I took a bunch of substrate and some filter media from the 20G, and then added an Otto. The Otto has been in it pretty much the entire time and seems perfectly healthy.

As far as the nitrate test, would my fish have been completely fine for so long if the nitrate was too high? Both tanks are planted, and I was under the impression that live plants use nitrate as food.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

air10force said:


> I haven't seen any as far as I can tell. I have seen a couple worms in the 5G over time, but they were tiny and didn't have a triangle head, so I think they're detritus. I've also seen some copepods in the 5G but from what I've read they are supposedly harmless.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As sensitive as otto's are they are not as sensitive as shrimp so yes that could be the case.

Dan


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## air10force (May 12, 2017)

Dman911 said:


> As sensitive as otto's are they are not as sensitive as shrimp so yes that could be the case.
> 
> Dan


Good to know. I will retest both tanks a few times tomorrow when I get home from work and see if I get better/different results this time. I'll give an update afterwards, thanks for the input!


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Fish can get accustomed to high nitrates over time... heard of a family that had a goldfish in a bowl. No filtration, no water changes. Got it a friend. Said "friend" died. Would hate to think what those water parameters were (are?) like... although otos, being sensitive fish (and you should always have a minimum of 6 otos!) should still show an issue if there was a problem with the water...



I've heard some tanks that are treated with copper and months, possibly even years later, even if the water column says there's no copper, the silicone may actually leach copper from the treatment. Who knows what could have been in the substrate, too...

@Mango has helped me with a problem tank in the past (well, still helping, actually! and when I say past, I mean like a month ago!) and might be able to offer some advice or help?

I was having a similar issue as you, however the shrimp were dying more like 1-3 a week... on average, rather than daily.


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## Krispyplants (Apr 15, 2014)

Wait... did I just read that you only feed your 15 something shrimps twice a week? I feed mines everyday. Sometimes twice a day. Twice a week of feeding for a new tank is negligence because a new tank does not really have sufficient food for 15 shrimps to depend on. FEED THEM.


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## harley (Jul 24, 2015)

Krispyplants said:


> Wait... did I just read that you only feed your 15 something shrimps twice a week? I feed mines everyday. Sometimes twice a day. Twice a week of feeding for a new tank is negligence because a new tank does not really have sufficient food for 15 shrimps to depend on. FEED THEM.


Yeah, in a new tank there's not going to be a lot for them to eat.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it be near impossible to have 0 nitrates in a planted tank? In all my years of doing this I've never had a zero (nitrate) reading on an established tank. 



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## Krispyplants (Apr 15, 2014)

Nitrate right at zero? Probably not but a possibility is that it could be below the minimum measurement on the test strip/tube. I assume that an extremely large water change would wield the same results.


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## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

Krispyplants said:


> Wait... did I just read that you only feed your 15 something shrimps twice a week? I feed mines everyday. Sometimes twice a day. Twice a week of feeding for a new tank is negligence because a new tank does not really have sufficient food for 15 shrimps to depend on. FEED THEM.


I think you might be going a little extreme on both ends there. I have over 200 CRS in a 20 gallon and only feed them three times a week. Am I being negligent? It's been over 9 months this way as I sell / give away shrimp and the population still keeps growing. When I started with a dozen, I didn't feed them for 6 months until I had roughly 50 or so...

I'd say feeding two times a day is excessive, and food is not the issue here. Not saying I shouldn't have been feeding them, but I really don't think that's what is killing them.

Also, he said the tank is 3 months old. It should have plenty of biofilm and algae. Not sure where you guys are all thinking this tank has no food.


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## Krispyplants (Apr 15, 2014)

I would like to see your colony of 200+ crs in a 20 gallon with barely any feeding. I'm not busting anyone's ball at all as I have a colony of PRL CRS myself in a 22 gallon long and I still feed the shrimp at least once a day. I have my own opinion and ive had success with my feeding schedule with rare deaths. I've heard of others that breed shrimp for a living whom feed at least once a day.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

harley said:


> Yeah, in a new tank there's not going to be a lot for them to eat.
> 
> Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it be near impossible to have 0 nitrates in a planted tank? In all my years of doing this I've never had a zero (nitrate) reading on an established tank.
> 
> ...


My tank has been at zero for months. It has a fair number of plants and is lightly stocked though.


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## Corydoradaxplora (Mar 31, 2017)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> My tank has been at zero for months. It has a fair number of plants and is lightly stocked though.


One of my tanks is like this too and is well understocked. Zero across the board after initial cycle. Worried me for a bit but things are going well, at three months now this way. I think its not heard of as often because people almost always stock at or over capacity. Top soil with minerals added dirted tank though so plants are getting nutrients from the soil mostly. I actually have removed most floaters and all the frogbit in an attempt to get nitrates to register.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

Corydoradaxplora said:


> One of my tanks is like this too and is well understocked. Zero across the board after initial cycle. Worried me for a bit but things are going well, at three months now this way. I think its not heard of as often because people almost always stock at or over capacity. Top soil with minerals added dirted tank though so plants are getting nutrients from the soil mostly. I actually have removed most floaters and all the frogbit in an attempt to get nitrates to register.


Ha, I literally just removed most of my floaters just a few days ago for the same reason. I'll probably just end up with a ton of algae now.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Corydoradaxplora said:


> One of my tanks is like this too and is well understocked. Zero across the board after initial cycle. Worried me for a bit but things are going well, at three months now this way. I think its not heard of as often because people almost always stock at or over capacity. Top soil with minerals added dirted tank though so plants are getting nutrients from the soil mostly. I actually have removed most floaters and all the frogbit in an attempt to get nitrates to register.


If you have mineralized soil they will leech into the water column so if you have 0 nitrate your substrates does also and I don't see plants doing much but melting in these conditions (some exceptions). Something is not adding up either the test is wrong/inaccurate or the claims are wrong/inaccurate or the tank is not cycled. Its not only the shrimp/fish that add to nitrogen like nitrates its also decaying organic matter. If you have 0 nitrates one of 3 things is happening 1.you either do not have the bacteria to convert to nitrates. 2.you are not getting accurate test results. 3.false claims. If you have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and 0 nitrate you cannot call your tank cycled. That is a fact because there is not enough food to sustain the bacteria. Just because at one time the tank was cycled does not mean it will always be the case. If you have no bioload the bacteria will die and the tank will no longer be considered cycled.

Added: I would go back and try to answer @Zoidburg questions and post some pics of the tank

Dan


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> Ha, I literally just removed most of my floaters just a few days ago for the same reason. I'll probably just end up with a ton of algae now.


Nutrients don't lead to algae its just a source of food like plants, algae requires far less nutrients than plants do, imbalance somewhere causes algae.

Dan


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

Dman911 said:


> If you have mineralized soil they will leech into the water column so if you have 0 nitrate your substrates does also and I don't see plants doing much but melting in these conditions (some exceptions). Something is not adding up either the test is wrong/inaccurate or the claims are wrong/inaccurate or the tank is not cycled. Its not only the shrimp/fish that add to nitrogen like nitrates its also decaying organic matter. If you have 0 nitrates one of 3 things is happening 1.you either do not have the bacteria to convert to nitrates. 2.you are not getting accurate test results. 3.false claims. If you have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and 0 nitrate you cannot call your tank cycled. That is a fact because there is not enough food to sustain the bacteria. Just because at one time the tank was cycled does not mean it will always be the case. If you have no bioload the bacteria will die and the tank will no longer be considered cycled.
> 
> Added: I would go back and try to answer @Zoidburg questions and post some pics of the tank
> 
> Dan


It is also possible for the nitrogen uptake capacity (plants) to be high enough that the produced nitrogen is used fairly quickly. I have a good deal of confidence in my ability to do ammonia/nitrite/nitrate testing. I do have considerable experience in the area.

Bump:


Dman911 said:


> Nutrients don't lead to algae its just a source of food like plants, algae requires far less nutrients than plants do, imbalance somewhere causes algae.
> 
> Dan


You mean like an imbalance that could be caused by removing a significant quantity of fast growing plants that are usually at the water surface, just below the lights?


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## Corydoradaxplora (Mar 31, 2017)

Gotta agree with Dman though, at some point my plants are going to or have already eliminated my bacteria and are now the filter. Same could be said for a lot of peoples tanks. At this point they technically would not be considered cycled anymore. But....to the topic at hand lol. So easy to go off the rails here. [emoji39] 

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## air10force (May 12, 2017)

Krispyplants said:


> Wait... did I just read that you only feed your 15 something shrimps twice a week? I feed mines everyday. Sometimes twice a day. Twice a week of feeding for a new tank is negligence because a new tank does not really have sufficient food for 15 shrimps to depend on. FEED THEM.


Ive seen so many conflicting statements on this. I have been pouring thru old posts online trying to figure this out and a lot of people suggested overfeeding them as a potential issue. Both of my tanks have plenty of biofilm, and there is also a little bit of algae too. I have seen a lot of people say that is an adequate source of food for them. Either way, I have feed them and Ive stopped feeding them; it had made absolutely no noticeable difference in their behavior or death rate.


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## Krispyplants (Apr 15, 2014)

The real irony is this... even if your nitrates read zero (which I highly doubt any test strips or tubes are accurate enough to prove that you have absolutely no nitrates) we dose fertilizers that contain nitrates all the time. To each their own opinion but for the serious plant tank keepers, we want to have the nitrates for the plants. Keeping your nitrates as low as possible are for beginners that don't have plants to utilize the nutrient (goldfish bowl days). Yes nitrate is a nutrient component for plants. Having zero nitrates in your planted tank is nothing to brag about even if its true that your tank has comepletely no nitrates at a specific time.


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## air10force (May 12, 2017)

Krispyplants said:


> Wait... did I just read that you only feed your 15 something shrimps twice a week? I feed mines everyday. Sometimes twice a day. Twice a week of feeding for a new tank is negligence because a new tank does not really have sufficient food for 15 shrimps to depend on. FEED THEM.


Ive seen so many conflicting statements on this. I have been pouring thru old posts online trying to figure this out and a lot of people suggested overfeeding them as a potential issue. Both of my tanks have plenty of biofilm, and there is also a little bit of algae too. I have seen a lot of people say that is an adequate source of food for them. Either way, I have feed them (started at daily feedings and then cut back to twice a week after the 1st group started dying) and Ive stopped feeding them altogether; it had made absolutely no noticeable difference in their behavior or death rate.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> It is also possible for the nitrogen uptake capacity (plants) to be high enough that the produced nitrogen is used fairly quickly. I have a good deal of confidence in my ability to do ammonia/nitrite/nitrate testing. I do have considerable experience in the area.
> 
> Bump:
> 
> You mean like an imbalance that could be caused by removing a significant quantity of fast growing plants that are usually at the water surface, just below the lights?


What kind of imbalance would that cause? If you know the answers why ask the question? Yes it is possible for plants to uptake most the nitrogen after which they will show signs of nitrogen deficiency and start to suffer creating a perfect condition for algae to take over as there is enough nutrients for algae but not plants. Confidence or not you seem reluctant to take advice and that's ok I don't get paid for it and you didn't ask for my specific advice so I will stop offering it. Good luck but I do suggest you go back and read zoidburgs post whether or not you listen to it that's up to you. I'm not trying to be a know it all dick but if accurate and necessary information is not provided then your likelihood of getting to the root cause is not good. It seems more like you are looking for a specific answer you want to hear and that is "you did everything right and it was not your fault" rather than eliminating all factors that may or may not be contributing. I'm not saying its something you did but rather was trying to eliminate human error so as I said before good luck.

Added: if you are feeding you have nitrates plain and simple.

Dan


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## Corydoradaxplora (Mar 31, 2017)

Dman911 said:


> What kind of imbalance would that cause? If you know the answers why ask the question? Yes it is possible for plants to uptake most the nitrogen after which they will show signs of nitrogen deficiency and start to suffer creating a perfect condition for algae to take over as there is enough nutrients for algae but not plants. Confidence or not you seem reluctant to take advice and that's ok I don't get paid for it and you didn't ask for my specific advice so I will stop offering it. Good luck but I do suggest you go back and read zoidburgs post whether or not you listen to it that's up to you. I'm not trying to be a know it all dick but if accurate and necessary information is not provided then your likelihood of getting to the root cause is not good. It seems more like you are looking for a specific answer you want to hear and that is "you did everything right and it was not your fault" rather than eliminating all factors that may or may not be contributing. I'm not saying its something you did but rather was trying to eliminate human error so as I said before good luck.
> 
> Dan


We get so quick in these we don't see things like, this is not even the OP. I agree @air10force, answer questions posted by @Zoidburg and provide pics when possible and this will give a lot more useful info that is needed to help.

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## air10force (May 12, 2017)

Krispyplants said:


> The real irony is this... even if your nitrates read zero (which I highly doubt any test strips or tubes are accurate enough to prove that you have absolutely no nitrates) we dose fertilizers that contain nitrates all the time. To each their own opinion but for the serious plant tank keepers, we want to have the nitrates for the plants. Keeping your nitrates as low as possible are for beginners that don't have plants to utilize the nutrient (goldfish bowl days). Yes nitrate is a nutrient component for plants. Having zero nitrates in your planted tank is nothing to brag about even if its true that your tank has comepletely no nitrates at a specific time.


Lol I don't know why you're under the impression that I'm bragging? I wasn't even aware that it was something worthy of bragging about, I'm not anywhere close to an expert at this sort of thing. I was just providing the information I had to aid in any troubleshooting. Based off the color chart from the liquid test kit, it said I was at 0. It has been mentioned that I might not have shaken the tube long enough so that reading could be incorrect, I'm going to retest later.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

Dman911 said:


> What kind of imbalance would that cause? If you know the answers why ask the question? Yes it is possible for plants to uptake most the nitrogen after which they will show signs of nitrogen deficiency and start to suffer creating a perfect condition for algae to take over as there is enough nutrients for algae but not plants. Confidence or not you seem reluctant to take advice and that's ok I don't get paid for it and you didn't ask for my specific advice so I will stop offering it. Good luck but I do suggest you go back and read zoidburgs post whether or not you listen to it that's up to you. I'm not trying to be a know it all dick but if accurate and necessary information is not provided then your likelihood of getting to the root cause is not good. It seems more like you are looking for a specific answer you want to hear and that is "you did everything right and it was not your fault" rather than eliminating all factors that may or may not be contributing. I'm not saying its something you did but rather was trying to eliminate human error so as I said before good luck.
> 
> *Added: if you are feeding you have nitrates plain and simple.*
> 
> Dan


I am not trying to argue about it, it is just that my data disagrees with the bolded statement. My test kit reads just fine on my lightly planted smaller goldfish tank. I have a PhD in chemistry and over 15 years of experience in a lab. When my nitrates started reading zero, I investigated the legitimacy of the results that I got. I really wish that I had more nitrates, because now I am going to need to start supplementing them. The fish are supposed to do that work for me.


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## Krispyplants (Apr 15, 2014)

air10force said:


> Ive seen so many conflicting statements on this. I have been pouring thru old posts online trying to figure this out and a lot of people suggested overfeeding them as a potential issue. Both of my tanks have plenty of biofilm, and there is also a little bit of algae too. I have seen a lot of people say that is an adequate source of food for them. Either way, I have feed them (started at daily feedings and then cut back to twice a week after the 1st group started dying) and Ive stopped feeding them altogether; it had made absolutely no noticeable difference in their behavior or death rate.


Are you able to measure how much biofilm you have in your tank? I started my tank 3 months ago is nothing but an estimated guess unless you have a precise process of measuring bio film cheaply, Let me know. Understand that biofilm and algae is nothing but a staple food source. The bread and butter. Some people can get away with it but not everyone. Not every tank will produce the same amount of bacteria. Food should be implemented into their diet because there are nutrients that the shrimps don't have access to. Nutrients that can really boost their immune system. I'm not trying to tell you that food is the reason why they're dying. What i'm trying to tell you is, why aren't you eliminating factors?


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## Corydoradaxplora (Mar 31, 2017)

air10force said:


> Lol I don't know why you're under the impression that I'm bragging? I wasn't even aware that it was something worthy of bragging about, I'm not anywhere close to an expert at this sort of thing. I was just providing the information I had to aid in any troubleshooting. Based off the color chart from the liquid test kit, it said I was at 0. It has been mentioned that I might not have shaken the tube long enough so that reading could be incorrect, I'm going to retest later.


I think it was directed more at myself and Bunsen. He's right though it is nothing to brag about and both stated we are doing things to try and raise nitrates. We're all trying to help you here @air10force, it's just easy to get off topic and I think maybe for some Bunsen got mistaken for the OP, myself included for a minute lol. This is also stuff people are passionate about and almost everyone does it a bit differently so these kinds of discussions arise sometimes. Please answer @Zoidburg's post when you can. It will help immensely. 

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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Just a question of how you tested the validity? You have a PhD in chem and 15 years experience testing and don't find having 0 ammonia, nitrite, nitrate to be odd? And still call the tank cycled? If you go back you didn't even think about nitrate till it was pointed out to you and said you would retest later yet you took the time to validate your results? Idk good luck rather not turn this into a debate and better left to find your solution than derail your thread.

Dan


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## Krispyplants (Apr 15, 2014)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> I have a PhD in chemistry and over 15 years of experience in a lab.


All jokes aside. Let's see this PhD degree and the credentials of 15 years in the lab >


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Yeah I'm just confusing the 2 now amd myself ... disregard any info or comment I made in the entire thread. 

Dan


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## Corydoradaxplora (Mar 31, 2017)

He's not even the OP lol. Can't you tell we love each other air10force? We argue like family.


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## air10force (May 12, 2017)

Krispyplants said:


> What i'm trying to tell you is, why aren't you eliminating factors?


I am trying to eliminate factors, which is why I have tried different ways of feeding based on things I have read. I went from daily feedings, to biweekly feedings, and now I'm not feeding at all. 

The fact that there were no changes in behavior or death rates lead me to believe food is not the issue. If it is the problem, then I haven't come across the right way to do it, or I would have tried it by now. I'm not trying to tell you that you're wrong or anything, I'm here because I don't know, I'm just telling you why I don't believe food to be the issue.


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## Krispyplants (Apr 15, 2014)

air10force said:


> I am trying to eliminate factors, which is why I have tried different ways of feeding based on things I have read. I went from daily feedings, to biweekly feedings, and now I'm not feeding at all.
> 
> The fact that there were no changes in behavior or death rates lead me to believe food is not the issue. If it is the problem, then I haven't come across the right way to do it, or I would have tried it by now. I'm not trying to tell you that you're wrong or anything, I'm here because I don't know, I'm just telling you why I don't believe food to be the issue.


Good luck with your findings. I wouldn't stop feeding though because if the shrimps are battling an internal infection or similar problems, they'll need all the nutrients (that biofilm don't have) that they can get.


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## air10force (May 12, 2017)

Corydoradaxplora said:


> I think it was directed more at myself and Bunsen. He's right though it is nothing to brag about and both stated we are doing things to try and raise nitrates. We're all trying to help you here @air10force, it's just easy to get off topic and I think maybe for some Bunsen got mistaken for the OP, myself included for a minute lol. This is also stuff people are passionate about and almost everyone does it a bit differently so these kinds of discussions arise sometimes. Please answer @Zoidburg's post when you can. It will help immensely.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk



Ah ok, I was concerned that I was coming off as bragging lol. As far as @zoidberg's post, I believe I responded to it last night. Unless there is another one that I missed (I'm on mobile right now so I might've just missed it).


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

Dman911 said:


> Just a question of how you tested the validity? You have a PhD in chem and 15 years experience testing and don't find having 0 ammonia, nitrite, nitrate to be odd? And still call the tank cycled? If you go back you didn't even think about nitrate till it was pointed out to you and said you would retest later yet you took the time to validate your results? Idk good luck rather not turn this into a debate and better left to find your solution than derail your thread.
> 
> Dan


Dan, I think that you are mistaking me with the OP. I did find it unexpected, but not entirely odd. I tested my tank with multiple test kits with the same result. I used those same test kits to test my kids' 20 gallon goldfish tank, and recorded nitrates at an expected level. I did a 50% water change, retested and had half the amount of nitrates (no measurable nitrates from my tap water). I also made standards from both potassium and sodium nitrate to test the "calibration" of the tests and they were reasonably accurate. There is probably a small amount of nitrate present, but it doesn't appear measurable. Tests like this are usually less accurate at the edges of their testing range. I still consider the tank cycled because there is still an adequate amount of nitrifying bacteria oxidizing ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. There are simply enough nitrogen consumers that are sequestering the nitrogenous compounds. Try doing a search and you will find on this very forum that many folks would not only not find it odd, they would expect it. I would rather not have this "problem". I have about a half inch of mulm in my sump that I haven't vacuumed out because I want it in the system.


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## air10force (May 12, 2017)

Krispyplants said:


> Good luck with your findings. I wouldn't stop feeding though because if the shrimps are battling an internal infection or similar problems, they'll need all the nutrients (that biofilm don't have) that they can get.


Yeah I guess since not feeding them hasn't helped, It won't hurt to go back to feeding them. Thanks for the suggestion


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## Krispyplants (Apr 15, 2014)

Still waiting for bun to show me his PhD degree and have his Einstein apprentice brag about his 15 years in a lab >


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

Krispyplants said:


> All jokes aside. Let's see this PhD degree and the credentials of 15 years in the lab >


Lol, should I post my resume? I might have a picture of my diploma somewhere...


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## Krispyplants (Apr 15, 2014)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> Lol, should I post my resume? I might have a picture of my diploma somewhere...


After 15 years in a Chemical lab, you're still holding onto that 15 year old resume? I'm sorry I'm out of context. Say no more :flick: 6 figure man


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

So you would agree it's not 0 nitrates and in my experience these liquid test kits are most accurate between 0-20 ppm. It really doesn't matter either way but if your not finding nutrient deficiency in plants then you must have some form of nitrogen. All I was asking is for the OP to retest to eliminate that ad it is a common problem. For it to be so perfectly balanced to go months at 0 nitrate and no sign of deficiency would be much closer to wizardry than by chance. Just changing the feeding would through that off... so you see where my suspicions are coming from?

Dan

Dan


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

If it hasn't been said already A planted aquarium with a small bioload, ( only a few fish..) a good growth of healthy plants, that has a normal pH of neutral or slightly acidic like 6.7 to 6.5 will often time have a nitrogen deficit that will cause the Nitrates to read close to zero. What is happening is the plants are preferentially using the higher ratio Ammonium to Ammonia ions and bypassing the >Nitrite>Nitrate cycle. This is what occurs in my 20 H and I have to actually add some trace amounts of liquid Nitrate ferts to help the plants some. 

OK, getting back to the mystery of his shrimp dying, could this be a factor of the shrimp being misidentified as Red Cherries? when they are in fact Crystal Reds? This might be a somewhat common mistake for beginners.

The other factor is, how clean is your tank's source water? Are you using Reverse Osmosis? If not, are you using distilled? Because a few makers of distilled water *might* use Copper tubed condensors and it can leave some trace amounts of Copper that might possibly be toxic for shrimp. 

Are you remineralizing the water with a balanced mix of Calcium/Magnesium and traces for GH and KH like Salty Shrimp +KH or similar? Also a TDS meter is pretty much required for shrimp keeping so you don't jump your water's TDS all over the place when doing water changes. My tanks, while no show pieces, are healthy and running within an average of about + - 15 TDS @ the most from a baseline of 160 TDS, ( I keep crystal shrimp.)

A lot of this is basic water chemistry and adjusting the added GH/KH amounts to close amounts. You don't need to be spot on, but there's a limited bit of fudge factor as Zoidburg has illuminated with his encounters with other shrimp keepers in his area. I think that Neocaridinia seem to be a just a little more sensitive to water make-up because their waters tend to be more alkaline or basic, and the water's ratio of Ammonia, vs. Ammonium ions, you tend to have more ammonia which is pretty toxic to shrimp, even in small amounts. Which brings me back to my first comment about Ammonia .vs Ammonium


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

Dman911 said:


> So you would agree it's not 0 nitrates and in my experience these liquid test kits are most accurate between 0-20 ppm. It really doesn't matter either way but if your not finding nutrient deficiency in plants then you must have some form of nitrogen. All I was asking is for the OP to retest to eliminate that ad it is a common problem. For it to be so perfectly balanced to go months at 0 nitrate and no sign of deficiency would be much closer to wizardry than by chance. Just changing the feeding would through that off... so you see where my suspicions are coming from?
> 
> Dan
> 
> Dan


I smell what you are stepping in. The nitrate test may be the toughest to do correctly in the test kit. Often when somebody has an uncycled tank and is getting zero (or unreadable/negligible), assuming that they did the test correctly, they will be reading ammonia and/or nitrite.

Also, if we are talking about my system, who said there were no signs of deficiency?


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Exactly Gramps the tank is not cycled. It can't be. There is nothing wrong with that so long as the the bioload or uptake doesn't change. I couldn't find the words to explain it. Thank you.

Dan


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

GrampsGrunge said:


> If it hasn't been said already A planted aquarium with a small bioload, ( only a few fish..) a good growth of healthy plants, that has a normal pH of neutral or slightly acidic like 6.7 to 6.5 will often time have a nitrogen deficit that will cause the Nitrates to read close to zero. What is happening is the plants are preferentially using the higher ratio Ammonium to Ammonia ions and bypassing the >Nitrite>Nitrate cycle. This is what occurs in my 20 H and I have to actually add some trace amounts of liquid Nitrate ferts to help the plants some.
> 
> OK, getting back to the mystery of his shrimp dying, could this be a factor of the shrimp being misidentified as Red Cherries? when they are in fact Crystal Reds? This might be a somewhat common mistake for beginners.
> 
> ...


Do you have any reference wrt to ammonium being less toxic than ammonia? What I have read seems to indicate that they are treated the same as far as toxicity because ammonia has a highish pka (9.24) and though there is usually way more ammonium ion present (pH dependent as presented) in water that equilibrium is extremely fast. Proton transport in water is orders of magnitude faster than diffusion even.


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## Krispyplants (Apr 15, 2014)

GrampsGrunge said:


> What is happening is the plants are preferentially using the higher ratio Ammonium to Ammonia ions and bypassing the >Nitrite>Nitrate cycle.


Is there a scholarly article to support this?


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

Krispyplants said:


> Is there a scholarly article to support this?


Plants generally take up ammonium at a faster rate than nitrate. Its pretty well established, though it can vary some by species.

Ammonium and nitrate uptake by aquatic plants from poorly buffered and acidified waters - ScienceDirect


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> Do you have any reference wrt to ammonium being less toxic than ammonia? What I have read seems to indicate that they are treated the same as far as toxicity because ammonia has a highish pka (9.24) and though there is usually way more ammonium ion present (pH dependent as presented) in water that equilibrium is extremely fast. Proton transport in water is orders of magnitude faster than diffusion even.


Well if you want to delve into the ancient archives of the Krib Usenet forum, George and Karla Booth from about 1992~94 were discussing basic water chemistry in planted aquariums in Aquarium Fish Magazine, co-currently with their Usenet posts, and how in slightly acid water conditions ( like we maintain in a CO2 rich water environment..) the Ammonia/Ammonium ion balance is weighted towards Ammonium, which is not (as) toxic as Ammonia is.

Plants love Ammonium.

Plants like to feed from their roots, it's more energy efficient, and in a slightly acid environment, the Fe, Ca, and N, ions can catalyze more easily for exchanges at the root hairs. This is one of the reasons behind having a high cation substrate. Not saying this is set in stone, but there's some sound biology science that supports this including an article I found in a college level Biology instructor's handbook, while taking a couple semesters of secondary college biology.

P.S. I should have prefaced this as Ammonium being some degrees less toxic than Ammonia. The problem being that at these low TDS and KH levels the bacteria that convert NH+4 to nitrite/nitrate are in vastly reduced numbers. Nitrifying bacteria tend to like slightly alkaline moderately hard-ish waters.


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## Krispyplants (Apr 15, 2014)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> Plants generally take up ammonium at a faster rate than nitrate. Its pretty well established, though it can vary some by species.
> 
> Ammonium and nitrate uptake by aquatic plants from poorly buffered and acidified waters - ScienceDirect


It does not list where plants are bypassing nitrate or nitrite. Everything is still utilized.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

GrampsGrunge said:


> Well if you want to delve into the ancient archives of the Krib Usenet forum, George and Karla Booth from about 1992~94 were discussing basic water chemistry in planted aquariums in Aquarium Fish Magazine, co-currently with their Usenet posts, and how in slightly acid water conditions ( like we maintain in a CO2 rich water environment..) the Ammonia/Ammonium ion balance is weighted towards Ammonium, which is not toxic like Ammonia is.
> 
> Plants love Ammonium.
> 
> Plants like to feed from their roots, it's more energy efficient, and in a slightly acid environment, the Fe, Ca, and N, cations can catalyze more easily for exchanges at the root hairs. This is one of the reasons behind having a high cation substrate. Not saying this is set in stone, but there's some sound biology science that supports this including an article I found in a college level Biology instructor's handbook, while taking a couple semesters of secondary college biology.


I agree with plants usually preferring ammonium over nitrates (or other nitrogen sources), I just don't see any real difference between ammonium and ammonia in most living systems which tend to be heavily buffered because the interconversion is so rapid. There are certain exceptions, I suppose, but I have a hard time seeing there be a more than negligible free ammonia concentration in most relevant systems. Also, since the equilibrium between the two species is so rapid in water, any usage of one would mean that there the other would convert to keep the ratio of the two the same (LeChatelier's principle). What I am saying (long-windedly) is that I see it (NH4+ vs NH3 in water) as a difference without a distinction. Thank you for the reply, i like thinking about these kind of things, and I think best "out loud".


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

Krispyplants said:


> It does not list where plants are bypassing nitrate or nitrite. Everything is still utilized.


They don't bypass per se, but the ammonium takes precedence over the utilization of Nitrate because it uses less energy, all life processes will go for the easy stuff first. Note that the Booth's also used a heated substrate to accelerate the catalyzing done at the hair roots. I have pictures of tanks from 1992~'95 that also were using cable heated substrate and once they get established they were growing plants with vigor on about a third of the CO2 I use now in my 20 gallon.




























I should apologize to air10force for the hijacks

I'm sorry, I completely geeked out.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

Krispyplants said:


> It does not list where plants are bypassing nitrate or nitrite. Everything is still utilized.


From the conclusion:



> Ammonium is more easily assimilated and as a consequence is generally used first by most plant species (Bidwell, 1974). The present study demonstrates
> that Juncus bulbosus, Sphagnum flexuosum, Agrostis canina and Drepanocladus fluitans possess this common nitrogen utilization ability.


Google it, this was just one of the available references that had full public access. This paper is interesting also because it identifies some plants that have evolved to take up nitrate more efficiently because of its native water conditions. Also of note relating to an above conversation was:



> The second group is formed by Juncus bulbosus, Sphagnum flexuosum,
> Agrostis canina and Drepanocladus fluitans. For these species, ammonium
> appears to be the most important nitrogen source. Roelofs et al. (1984) demonstrated
> that these differences cannot be ascribed to differences in pH
> ...


----------



## Krispyplants (Apr 15, 2014)

GrampsGrunge said:


> They don't bypass per se, but the ammonium takes precedence


Why would you need to add nitrate then?


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

Krispyplants said:


> Why would you need to add nitrate then?


You don't "have to", but it is likely the safest way to add nitrogen if you have any livestock. I suppose you could microdose with ammonia if you were so inclined to.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Pictures of the tanks and shrimp please....




Also, it *COULD* be diet related, still...



I have a 20g high that has been a problem tank for months. I had, on average, 1-3 shrimp die per week. Didn't matter what I fed them, nor how often I fed them... i.e. no feeding at all to daily feedings. They still died. I have foods from Mosura, Borneowild, Fluval (not advised...), Lowkeys, and some off the shelf pet store foods. (algae wafers and sinking pellets for bottom feeders, flake food, etc) Not counting spinach, lettuce, cucumber, leaves....

I restarted the tank and the cycle, which meant basically tearing it down. I moved the shrimp to a 10 gallon bare bottom tank with a small corner sponge filter taken out of a 30g. (otherwise, not cycled! no biofilm, no feeding the bacteria, just water, sponge, shrimp, done!) Tank contained driftwood, alder cones and indian almond leaves. I had *ZERO* deaths for weeks while I re-cycled the 20g. I even accidentally over-dosed the ammonia in the tank (thought I had about 18 gallons of water, it was more like 15...). Regardless, once the cycle was complete, I moved the shrimp back.

And they went right back to dying...


I am adamant about the fact that the deaths are not related to an issue with the tank, but I couldn't figure out *WHAT*. I made the tank a blackwater tank (peat granules and alder cones) and that also stopped the deaths.... tried to remove the tannins so I could actually enjoy the shrimp, and massive deaths! Okay, fine.... treat the tank with H2O2. Had some shrimp deaths (as expected), as well as a large population die-off of limpets and copepods (not all, but many!). Shrimp still dying.


Tank stable? Deaths. Tank not stable? (i.e. changing water parameters) Deaths. Don't feed? Deaths. Do feed? Deaths. Heater on? Deaths. No heater on? Deaths. Use straight tap water? Deaths. (although for different reasons... tap water too soft for shrimp survival) Use remineralized RO water? Deaths. 

Brand new tank that has never had fish in it, was never treated with a copper medication. Didn't seem to matter what I did, or didn't do, the shrimp still died in that tank. (except for the blackwater treatment...)





A month ago I started feeding them basic food. Algae/spirulina pellets and fish flake food. Have not had *ONE* death since.


I'm not saying it is food related, but I'm also not saying it is... there are so many factors that can come into play and it helps to have a better, broader picture of everything. (hence, asking for pictures)

It could be an issue with a heater or a filter even. Something could be rusting inside the tank causing the deaths, but you aren't physically seeing the rust...


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

Dman911 said:


> Exactly Gramps the tank is not cycled. It can't be. There is nothing wrong with that so long as the the bioload or uptake doesn't change. I couldn't find the words to explain it. Thank you.
> 
> Dan


I'm not going to say it's not cycled, it's probably closer to being 'alternately cycled'. The biological processes could still be healthy enough to cover for the shrimp's waste products, and the Ammonium, if present, would make for some good plant growth.

Both my CBS tanks are running in the 6.7 to 6.9 range for pH and they don't have a lot of Nitrate. The little satellite pair of tanks is probably getting close to being overly stocked right now as I've got 3 broods of youngsters growing up in it with about 10 adults and subadults. That's over 40 shrimp in various sizes in less than 3 gallons of tank space with a heavy load of floating, Fern and Moss plants, and it never gets over 7 to 10 PPM for Nitrate. The Salvinia grows like crazy in both tanks, as does the Pinnate Water Sprite.

Time to consider a doing a ROAK :surprise:

Piiccies of the little tank, that BTW is a Nonny's Biscotti container @ 1.3 gallons.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

GrampsGrunge said:


> I'm not going to say it's not cycled, it's probably closer to being 'alternately cycled'. The biological processes could still be healthy enough to cover for the shrimp's waste products, and the Ammonium, if present, would make for some good plant growth.
> 
> Both my CBS tanks are running in the 6.7 to 6.9 range for pH and they don't have a lot of Nitrate. The little satellite pair of tanks is probably getting close to being overly stocked right now as I've got 3 broods of youngsters growing up in it with about 10 adults and subadults. That's over 40 shrimp in various sizes in less than 3 gallons of tank space with a heavy load of floating, Fern and Moss plants, and it never gets over 7 to 10 PPM for Nitrate. The Salvinia grows like crazy in both tanks, as does the Pinnate Water Sprite.
> 
> Time to consider a doing a ROAK :surprise:


To add to this, nitrifying bacteria are still likely competing for some ammonia, and tend to go dormant rather than just starve and die. There would likely be a biological filtering capacity remaining if all plants were removed.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

OK I can see that. But you would still have some degree of nitrates maybe only 5ppm but there would be some if the nitrifying bacteria are present. 0 ammonia 0 nitrite and 0 nitrate would most definitely be showing some deficiency. It would mean no ammonia/ammonium, no nitrite, no nitrate. To have a perfect balance of 3 months reading 0, 0, 0 without deficiency is dam near close to wizardry. Hell even a water change will through that off. What I'm saying is its extremely unlikely albeit not absolutely impossible to get that kind of balance between uptake and addition. especially by accident and not under extremely controlled testing and calculating. The almost has to be a level nitrogen present in some form over 3 months. A WC, change in feeding habit etc. I just can't for the life of me see having a tank so balanced to produce this without good knowledge and calculations of how to do so. I mean I have never seen anyone or heard of anyone accomplishing 0 0 0 while growing plants and keeping stocking, feeding etc. Which has turned into a huge debate rather that what I intended of retesting the nitrate to make sure because the chance of it being balanced this way for 3 months is well next to nothing in my opinion.

Dan


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## air10force (May 12, 2017)

GrampsGrunge said:


> If it hasn't been said already A planted aquarium with a small bioload, ( only a few fish..) a good growth of healthy plants, that has a normal pH of neutral or slightly acidic like 6.7 to 6.5 will often time have a nitrogen deficit that will cause the Nitrates to read close to zero. What is happening is the plants are preferentially using the higher ratio Ammonium to Ammonia ions and bypassing the >Nitrite>Nitrate cycle. This is what occurs in my 20 H and I have to actually add some trace amounts of liquid Nitrate ferts to help the plants some.
> 
> OK, getting back to the mystery of his shrimp dying, could this be a factor of the shrimp being misidentified as Red Cherries? when they are in fact Crystal Reds? This might be a somewhat common mistake for beginners.
> 
> ...


My 20G has always had a pretty solid bioload, so I'm not concerned about it not being cycled properly (Hopefully I shouldn't be anyway?). If I wasn't having the same issue in both tanks I might suspect that tho.

Definitely not Crystals. I looked into them but came away with the impression they would be too difficult for me.

I'm just using filtered tap water. I've tested for copper straight out of the tap and got a 0 reading with the liquid test kit. I'm not sure how reliable that is tho.

I'm not remineralizing the water because of my GH and KH levels. Would I need do that anyway?


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

Dman911 said:


> OK I can see that. But you would still have some degree of nitrates maybe only 5ppm but there would be some if the nitrifying bacteria are present. 0 ammonia 0 nitrite and 0 nitrate would most definitely be showing some deficiency. It would mean no ammonia/ammonium, no nitrite, no nitrate. To have a perfect balance of 3 months reading 0, 0, 0 without deficiency is dam near close to wizardry. Hell even a water change will through that off. What I'm saying is its extremely unlikely albeit not absolutely impossible to get that kind of balance between uptake and addition. especially by accident and not under extremely controlled testing and calculating. The almost has to be a level nitrogen present in some form over 3 months. A WC, change in feeding habit etc. I just can't for the life of me see having a tank so balanced to produce this without good knowledge and calculations of how to do so. I mean I have never seen anyone or heard of anyone accomplishing 0 0 0 while growing plants and keeping stocking, feeding etc. Which has turned into a huge debate rather that what I intended of retesting the nitrate to make sure because the chance of it being balanced this way for 3 months is well next to nothing in my opinion.
> 
> Dan


I find my API test kits are hard to differentiate when you're running scant levels of Amomonia, Nitrite and Nitrate. My 20 gallon fish tank generally shows at least 14 PPM for Nitrate. I've gotten so I don't test as often anymore because everything does well, which could be bad sign of complacency.

Bump:


air10force said:


> My 20G has always had a pretty solid bioload, so I'm not concerned about it not being cycled properly (Hopefully I shouldn't be anyway?). If I wasn't having the same issue in both tanks I might suspect that tho.
> 
> Definitely not Crystals. I looked into them but came away with the impression they would be too difficult for me.
> 
> ...


Sounds like your water is perfect out of the tap for Neos, lucky you. The only thing I would explore is: are you on a municipal or city water system? And do they have public access to their water chemistry? It could define what might be added or lacking that's causing issues. I used to belong to a local aquarium club and the water treatment manager/head scientist was our aquarium club's president and we'd get print-outs of the water chemistry every month as hand outs if we wanted.

Was pretty awesome, I miss living in a larger city, and the excellent LFS's available.


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## air10force (May 12, 2017)

Ok I have just retested the Nitrate in the 5G twice. Don't have time to recheck the 20G right now tho.

The color is in between the yellow 0 ppm and the orangeish 5 ppm, but closer to the 5 ppm.

If I had to guess I'd say it's probably like 4ppm. Is this number realistic, or is it still likely wrong?



I've got inlaws in town for a few days so I'm sorry for the delayed responses lol.


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## jointgib (May 11, 2017)

OP, what's the circulation like in these tanks?


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## Krispyplants (Apr 15, 2014)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> You don't "have to", but it is likely the safest way to add nitrogen if you have any livestock. I suppose you could microdose with ammonia if you were so inclined to.


That's what I'm saying. Bypassing isn't the correct terminology. I'm still researching evidence for plants utilizing ammonia first or do they utilize both ammonia and nitrate too as well. Just in smaller quantities when ammonia is available


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

air10force said:


> Ok I have just retested the Nitrate in the 5G twice. Don't have time to recheck the 20G right now tho.
> 
> The color is in between the yellow 0 ppm and the orangeish 5 ppm, but closer to the 5 ppm.
> 
> ...


100% realistic.

Dan


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

Krispyplants said:


> That's what I'm saying. Bypassing isn't the correct terminology. I'm still researching evidence for plants utilizing ammonia first or do they utilize both ammonia and nitrate too as well. Just in smaller quantities.


Plants can use ammonia, and do so at a faster rate, generally, than they do nitrates. In most established planted aquariums, some ammonia is taken up by the plants, some by the nitrifying bacteria. The bacteria produce nitrite, then nitrate which is also taken up by plants. Some seem to think that it is all one or another, but I don't think it likely, unless you are talking densely planted with fast growing plants with high light and CO2. 

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


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## air10force (May 12, 2017)

GrampsGrunge said:


> Sounds like your water is perfect out of the tap for Neos, lucky you. The only thing I would explore is: are you on a municipal or city water system? And do they have public access to their water chemistry? It could define what might be added or lacking that's causing issues. I used to belong to a local aquarium club and the water treatment manager/head scientist was our aquarium club's president and we'd get print-outs of the water chemistry every month as hand outs if we wanted.
> 
> Was pretty awesome, I miss living in a larger city, and the excellent LFS's available.


I believe it's the city water system. I live in Dallas, I get billed thru my apartment complex so I'll have to read the fine print on one of my bills to be certain


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> Plants can use ammonia, and do so at a faster rate, generally, than they do nitrates. In most established planted aquariums, some ammonia is taken up by the plants, some by the nitrifying bacteria. The bacteria produce nitrite, then nitrate which is also taken up by plants. Some seem to think that it is all one or another, but I don't think it likely, unless you are talking densely planted with fast growing plants with high light and CO2.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


Exactly which is why you should show some nitrates. If you are not showing any nitrates the tank is not cycled and the plants are taking all the ammonia/ammonium out of the water before the nitrifying bacteria can feed on it to produce nitrite and nitrate. 

This is what I have been saying all along

Dan


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## air10force (May 12, 2017)

Zoidburg said:


> Pictures of the tanks and shrimp please....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds a lot like what I'm dealing with. I'm usually good at solving problems so this has been pretty frustrating. I'll try to get some pics up some time this weekend. I probably picked the wrong weekend to ask for help since I've got company lol. Hopefully I can find some time to sneak off to the LFS to look for different food too, since you had some success with that.


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

Krispyplants said:


> Why would you need to add nitrate then?


 I have about 9 little fish in a 20 gallon. Neons, Glowlite tetras and a lone female C.Chopra that is far too fast, and too wily to net out without trashing the plants in the tank. I've noticed a small slowdown in my plant growth since the plants started getting the upper hand, I mean it's a real Jungle tank right now. So I bump up the Nitrate just a little with KNO2. It's really helped, I don't think the fish excrete enough to keep the plants nitrogen needs met.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

Dman911 said:


> Exactly which is why you should show some nitrates. If you are not showing any nitrates the tank is not cycled and the plants are taking all the ammonia/ammonium out of the water before the nitrifying bacteria can feed on it to produce nitrite and nitrate.
> 
> This is what I have been saying all along
> 
> Dan


Or the plants are also consuming enough nitrate to make it immeasurable.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Without researching any studies I would have to agree with that. But I have my doubts.

Dan


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## Krispyplants (Apr 15, 2014)

Nitrate will always fluctuate. It's very possible that there could be a scenario where most ammonia and nitrates are utilized in the water column and become immeasurable, though they are still there in trace amounts. I think we can all agree on this within this long quarrel about whether or not nitrate still exists even though the strip says ditto. roud:roud: I can live with that.


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## Corydoradaxplora (Mar 31, 2017)

Wow, I was gone for a few hours and my tapatalk app was blowing up. Now I see why. Very interesting discussion this topic turned out, with good points made. However there was a post by Dman that was edited earlier on per wizardry and I demand it be put back. I may not be perfect when it comes to planted aquariums but my wizardry is on point.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

Lol, there was no quarreling, just spirited discussion in which ideas were​ exchanged. It is how we learn.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Corydoradaxplora said:


> Wow, I was gone for a few hours and my tapatalk app was blowing up. Now I see why. Very interesting discussion this topic turned out, with good points made. However there was a post by Dman that was edited earlier on per wizardry and I demand it be put back. I may not be perfect when it comes to planted aquariums but my wizardry is on point.



Lol I what was changed IDK to many dam posts here. Was is mod edited or did I edit it?

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

I forgot to mention it, but my concern here is that the shrimp could be imports, even if they might have been sold as "home-bred".


Imported Adult Neos are *notorious* for not being able to acclimate to USA tanks. They are raised in Caridina parameters, probably bred in Taiwan, shipped to USA, put into new water parameters (probably still Caridina...), then shipped again to your home where the parameters then fall somewhere within the Neo parameters...


In short, the shrimp don't survive. Some people have *great* success with imported Neos where-as others struggle just to keep any of them alive...


It's typically best to purchase juvenile shrimp as they are more likely to survive in different water parameters than adults.


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## Corydoradaxplora (Mar 31, 2017)

Dman911 said:


> Lol I what was changed IDK to many dam posts here. Was is mod edited or did I edit it?
> 
> Dan


Lol I think it was earlier on where you put "(some exceptions)" in place of "some kind of wizardry." I'm just screwing around. I like poking fun at these sorts of things, keeps the mood light and spirits up. These discussions can get a bit heated sometimes or at least might seem that way to some readers. Wizardry is no laughing matter though. I highly suggest employing it whenever possible.

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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Corydoradaxplora said:


> Lol I think it was earlier on where you put "(some exceptions)" in place of "some kind of wizardry." I'm just screwing around. I like poking fun at these sorts of things, keeps the mood light and spirits up. These discussions can get a bit heated sometimes or at least might seem that way to some readers. Wizardry is no laughing matter though. I highly suggest employing it whenever possible.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk


Oh I agree 100% my fiancée decided I am no longer allowed to have my wand and she uses it against me to do her bidding. I have seen the dark side.

Dan


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

Dman911 said:


> Oh I agree 100% my fiancée decided I am no longer allowed to have my wand and she uses it against me to do her bidding. I have seen the dark side.
> 
> Dan


There are so many inappropriate jokes there...

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## air10force (May 12, 2017)

Zoidburg said:


> I forgot to mention it, but my concern here is that the shrimp could be imports, even if they might have been sold as "home-bred".
> 
> 
> Imported Adult Neos are *notorious* for not being able to acclimate to USA tanks. They are raised in Caridina parameters, probably bred in Taiwan, shipped to USA, put into new water parameters (probably still Caridina...), then shipped again to your home where the parameters then fall somewhere within the Neo parameters...
> ...


Yeah one of the other members, Mango, mentioned this to me in a message. Apparently the sellers I bought from are known for doing that, so it could be the problem.

I mentioned my 1st group of shrimp were bought at my LFS, but I only put them in my 5G when it was still fairly new. I believed that it was cycled at the time, but some of you mentioned ways that it would appear to be cycled without it actually being cycled.

All the shrimp I bought later on where from these online sellers might have just been dying because they were imported. This may explain why they were dying in both tanks. Obviously the problem could still just be something else with my water, food, tanks, etc.

I am going to try to head to my LFS either this weekend or next weekend, and see where they get their shrimp. If other customers have had similar experiences, they may even know the cause. 

I appreciate all the feedback I have received on this post from everyone. Even if I don't figure out the exact problem, I have at least learned a few things that I didn't know before!


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## Corydoradaxplora (Mar 31, 2017)

air10force said:


> Yeah one of the other members, Mango, mentioned this to me in a message. Apparently the sellers I bought from are known for doing that, so it could be the problem.
> 
> I mentioned my 1st group of shrimp were bought at my LFS, but I only put them in my 5G when it was still fairly new. I believed that it was cycled at the time, but some of you mentioned ways that it would appear to be cycled without it actually being cycled.
> 
> ...


That sucks and condolences, I know that feeling. Had and may still have that problem with some shrimp I got at a LFS. Only way they seem normal so far is, like Zoidburg said, blackwater treatment. Using (underdosing) bacter ae and bt-9 on seperate days to try and get things on track for the shrimp along with that. Only time will tell. I hope you see some improvements or at the least get some answers soon.


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## harley (Jul 24, 2015)

air10force said:


> Yeah one of the other members, Mango, mentioned this to me in a message. Apparently the sellers I bought from are known for doing that, so it could be the problem.
> 
> I mentioned my 1st group of shrimp were bought at my LFS, but I only put them in my 5G when it was still fairly new. I believed that it was cycled at the time, but some of you mentioned ways that it would appear to be cycled without it actually being cycled.
> 
> ...


I had a problem with shrimp dying at an alarming rate from one particular online seller. I thought it was something wrong with my tank, but I couldn't figure out what. Then I ordered from a guy I saw people recommending on here & the shrimp are doing great! (Not sure if I'm allowed to say names, so I left them out [emoji4] )

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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

harley said:


> I had a problem with shrimp dying at an alarming rate from one particular online seller. I thought it was something wrong with my tank, but I couldn't figure out what. Then I ordered from a guy I saw people recommending on here & the shrimp are doing great! (Not sure if I'm allowed to say names, so I left them out [emoji4] )
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


I'm sure you could say the second seller without problems.;-)

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## harley (Jul 24, 2015)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> I'm sure you could say the second seller without problems.;-)
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


Ok, lol. It was Lrbretz Aquatics, the fish & shrimp I got from him are doing great! 

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## ate (Jul 25, 2013)

You problem might be because you are drip acclimating them you should just take them out of the water soon as you get them and put them in the tank because when you drip acclimate down ammonia builds up inside of the water and it kills the shrimp slowly but surely

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## harley (Jul 24, 2015)

ate said:


> You problem might be because you are drip acclimating them you should just take them out of the water soon as you get them and put them in the tank because when you drip acclimate down ammonia builds up inside of the water and it kills the shrimp slowly but surely
> 
> Sent from my SM-T280 using Tapatalk


Why not just add Prime while drip acclimating?

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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

I've sourced my shrimp from two local hobbyists/shrimp breeders who seem to know what they are doing. Being that they are CBS and are from water parameters similar to mine would probably explain why I'm presently having good luck, but my initial 5 shrimp did not do as well, I think I eventually lost 3 or the first 5, but my water wasn't being checked for TDS or GH.


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## ate (Jul 25, 2013)

harley said:


> Why not just add Prime while drip acclimating?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


I hadn't thought of that but thats a good idea. Although nitrates and nitrite could be an issue. I dont know if prime will detoxify the water for those, or how fast they would build up to unsafe levels in a bag.

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## Corydoradaxplora (Mar 31, 2017)

ate said:


> I hadn't thought of that but thats a good idea. Although nitrates and nitrite could be an issue. I dont know if prime will detoxify the water for those, or how fast they would build up to unsafe levels in a bag.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T280 using Tapatalk


Prime does detox nitrite but there shouldn't be a full cycling process going on within the bag. Most people buying within their country and receiving shrimp within 2-3 days normally don't have to worry too much about ammonia buildup due to shrimp having such small bioloads. It does become an issue however with imported shrimp when they are shipped in large numbers and/or transit time is longer.


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