# Is this a good CO2 regulator?



## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

I would suggest a dual-stage regulator like victor, matheson, www.greenleafaquarium.com, www.rexgrigg.com, etc. Single-stage regulators like the one you linked to can lead to an "end-of-the-tank dump" which empties the last portions of the cyclinder into your fish tank all at once which could kill your fish. 

Read up here...http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/80542-c02-regulators-price-vs-quailty.html


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## [email protected] (Jul 17, 2008)

It's a fine setup, for a paint ball tank. 

In addition to the tank and diffuser you'll also want a bubble counter, but you can make that yourself. For a cheap (almost free) diffuser, do a search for chop stick diffuser. You stick about an inch of a disposable chop stick in the end of your line. Instant diffuser.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Check here for a very good deal....http://www.michiganreefers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=686127


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Here is another link to the Michigan Reefer link that helgymatt gave you. Victor chrome plated, high purity dual stage regulators through Michigan Reefers: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/72328-victor-co2-regulator-pimp-club-42.html#post814751

Here is one more link to them: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/72328-victor-co2-regulator-pimp-club-42.html#post818692


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## wrangler (Oct 14, 2007)

Thank you for the links......I was also looking on eBay and found several listed for buy it now....

I wanted to know if any of these are suitable and/or good regulators...I have heard of the first two on this web site but am not sure about the third.

Heres the information...
#1
BRAND NEW CO2 PRESSURE REGULATOR WITH MAGNETIC VALVE NEW IN ORIGINAL BOX

AZOO CO2 PRESSURE REGULATOR (MAGNETIC VALVE INCLUDED) HAS PASS QUALITY TESTING ONE OF THE BEST ON THE MARKET AND A REASONABLE PRICE! 
ITS READY TO INSTALL WITHOUT ANY FURTHER ADJUSTMENT. 
EASY TO INSTALL AND MAINTAIN. 
IN CONJUNCTION WITH ALUMINUM CO2 CYLINDER, FORMS A COMPLETE CO2 SUPPLY SYATEM.
IT IS MADE TO BE USED FOR AN GROWING ROOM (GREEN HOUSE) OR FOR AN FISH TANK!
ANY UNIT LIKE THIS IS NOT CHEAP I KNOW I PAID FOR IT SO ENJOY QUALITY.
THIS AUCTION HAS NO RESERVE PRICE!! THANKS AND GOOD LUCK BIDDING.

#2
Brand New - Milwaukee MA957 CO2 Adjustable Flow Pressure Regulator, includes flow regulator, needle valve, electronic solenoid & bubble counter.
Fast Priority Shipping! + Free 10 ft CO2 Proof Tubing! CO2 Reactors Available! 


Please check out for Store Return Policy, the items not listed on eBay store and international shippings.

CO2 REGULATOR

MA957

CO2 Solenoid Diaphragm Valve

Includes flow regulator, needle valve, electronic solenoid & bubble counter. Unit comes with dual gauges each with dual reading of both psi & kg/cm. Left gauge meters tank capacity and right gauge meters flow. Needle valve flow control provides for precise measurement. The solenoid valve comes with a 1.5 meter power cord. (CO2 bottle is not included)

#3
CO2 Regulator Solenoid + Bubble Counter MSRP $87.00

Sale price: $65.99 Save $21!!! 

Product Description Product Picture 
Perfect for calcium reactor and Freshwater Plant CO2 injection applications. Calcium Reactors and CO2 fertilization require far more precision in their dosing. Our Deluxe CO2 Regulator with solenoid is the best we've seen. Unit comes with dual gauges each with dual reading of both psi & kg/cm. Left gauge meters tank capacity and right gauge meters flow. With its fine tuning capabilities and electronic regulation, this CO2 Regulator meets the highest industry quality standard. 

Click to download Product Manual


Product Feature

* German-made electronic Solenoid 

* Dual Gauges for higher accuracy 

* Durable brass construction 

* Heavy duty electronic cabling 

* Compatible with most high density tubing





SPECIAL NOTE:

Aquatek regulators are equipped with CGA 320 connectors, this offers a custom fit for standard U.S. CO2 tanks.

Connectors other than CGA 320 could lead to dangerous carbon dioxide leakage. 


What are your thoughts on those? I am shying away from purchases from a "aquarium specific" stores as they seem to raise thier prices to take advantage of that. I do want a good regulator, but I also dont want to pay more than I have to. I am also look for one that has all the pieces that I need to hook it up, ie not missing some integral component to make it work....

Thanks for your help and input, I really do appreciate it!


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

EOTD?

Read from Orlando's post (#13) on down:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/80542-c02-regulators-price-vs-quailty.html#post803046


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Wrangler, 
In cased you didn't get the point of what all of us have been saying, we suggest a dual-stage regulator. All of the ones you have linked to and described are all single-stage regulators. Now, MANY people use single-stage regulators and have success. There is no question that the regulators you have linked to would work, but it's up to you if you want to spend a little more for quality and end-of-the-tank dump protection.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Momotaro said:


> EOTD?
> 
> Read from Orlando's post (#13) on down:
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/80542-c02-regulators-price-vs-quailty.html#post803046


+1. Thanks for posting that link Momotaro.

Frankly, I don't understand this whole "dual-stage regulator" movement. From my experience with regulators for planted aquariua and research purposes, a single-stage regulator with a GOOD needle valve will not EOTD under our usual operating conditions.

If you can find a decently-priced dual-stage regulator, then by all means, go for it. If I had had to choose between buying a dual-stage with a cheap needle valve or a single-stage with a good needle valve, I'd pick the single-stage route any day. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## wrangler (Oct 14, 2007)

helgymatt said:


> Wrangler,
> In cased you didn't get the point of what all of us have been saying, we suggest a dual-stage regulator. All of the ones you have linked to and described are all single-stage regulators. Now, MANY people use single-stage regulators and have success. There is no question that the regulators you have linked to would work, but it's up to you if you want to spend a little more for quality and end-of-the-tank dump protection.


 
I was getting confused....as the 3 that I found on eBay had 2 gauges...so therefore I was thinking that I was looking at duel-stage regulators......I really have alot of terms to learn.....and it seems the more I asked the more there is to learn.......and the more ignorant I feel....  Sorry.....I will try harder...I promise!!

thanks for you help!


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## lovingHDTV (Oct 15, 2008)

I could not agree more, but many/most/all of the less expensive single stage regulator kits do not come with a good needle valve.

Maybe we should start an "Ideal Needle Valve Pimp Club" 

dave



epicfish said:


> +1. Thanks for posting that link Momotaro.
> 
> Frankly, I don't understand this whole "dual-stage regulator" movement. From my experience with regulators for planted aquariua and research purposes, a single-stage regulator with a GOOD needle valve will not EOTD under our usual operating conditions.
> 
> ...


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

epicfish said:


> +1. Thanks for posting that link Momotaro.
> 
> Frankly, I don't understand this whole "dual-stage regulator" movement. From my experience with regulators for planted aquariua and research purposes, a single-stage regulator with a GOOD needle valve will not EOTD under our usual operating conditions.
> 
> ...


I didn't realize all of this (quality needle valve vs. dual-stage stuff) until today so this has been a good learning experience for me too. 

I got a great used dual-stage regulator for $60 shipped, so good deals can be had for good quality regulators. 

There is more to a regulator than just its ability to "regulate"...think about the quality of the gauges, its durability, and longevity. I would bet those who get a quality regulator will still have them in working condition 30+ years from now. I gave up on my Milwaukee regulator after a year worth of service...The gauges blew once, the solenoid failed, and I was tired of having to tune the needle valve in for 3 days after filling the cylinder (problem inherent to Milwaukees). My new quality, dual-stage regulator requires no special work to get the bubble count set. 

This is just like anything else we buy for this hobby. We don't "need" an ADA tank, we don't "need" a $200 dollar set of branded lily pipes, or the hippest light fixture out there. This is just a buyers decision. 

Also, for Wranglers sake, 2 gauges does not mean dual-stage. Single-stage and dual-stage both have 2 gauges. Those threads we linked you to should explain all of that.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Momotaro said:


> EOTD?
> 
> Read from Orlando's post (#13) on down:
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/80542-c02-regulators-price-vs-quailty.html#post803046





epicfish said:


> +1. Thanks for posting that link Momotaro.
> 
> Frankly, I don't understand this whole "dual-stage regulator" movement. From my experience with regulators for planted aquariua and research purposes, a single-stage regulator with a GOOD needle valve will not EOTD under our usual operating conditions.
> 
> ...


I'd like to add a few comments to these responses.

By design, a dual stage regulator controls your low pressure setting and it will not allow this pressure to ever get above that setting. You get the same psi until the CO2 cylinder is empty. 

A single stage regulator cannot do this. Again this is by design.

I've never had EOTD with either type of regulator. I've had Azoo regulators with their brand of needle valves and I've had Cornelius regulators with Clippard needle valves. No EOTD either. The bubble count wasn't consistent though.

Since we know that a dual stage regulator cannot allow EOTD and a single stage regulator can let it happen. Whether or not it happens is a different story controlled by contributing factors.

People with dual stage regulators are running their CO2 cylinders until they are empty. They get a week or more use out of them. Many people with single stage regulators swap out their CO2 cylinders when the pressure starts to drop because of their fear of possible EOTD. This is only saving pennies on the CO2, but what is the price of this fear or if EOTD would happen?

I've found that I like the precision of my Victor dual stage regulators and the control from my Swagelok and Ideal metering valves. It is like the best of both worlds. It is like having one less thing to worry about. EOTD only crosses my mind when I read about it on the forums. 

Here is another reason why I like them. My Victor chrome plated medical grade dual stage VTS253A-1993 CO2 regulators are either brand new or they were purchased in mint condition. I paid between $30 and $50 for them. The shipping was $9.30 if I ordered one or if I ordered two of them; it was $9.30 too. This is for priority shipping. This price is right in line with or maybe even cheaper than the Cornelius Classic and Micro Matic type regulators that I could get from BeverageFactory.com.

By purchasing these Victor regulators and getting the parts at retail from some people on this forum or on eBay plus shipping allowed me to build regulators with either the Swagelok or Ideal metering valves at cheaper prices than what I could of purchased single stage regulators built with these same parts. I was able to have excellent regulator/metering valve combinations cheaper than I could of purchased them already made. 

The above reason is exactly why I started the Victor Pimp Club Thread. I wanted to help people to have an excellent regulator/needle or metering valve combination at the cheapest price that they could. This allowed more people to get into pressurized CO2 for their aquariums than would of normally occurred because of these cheaper prices. As the thread grew, we were finding great deals on Concoa, Matheson and Harris dual stage regulators. There were various deals on Swagelok metering valves to be had too. I've even purchased a Swagelok metering valve for 99 cents that retailed for over a hundred dollars. Two days ago, one of the members in this club was able to get a brand new Concoa 2122351 chrome plated dual stage 316L stainless steel diaphragm regulator for $9.99 on eBay. There was no shipping because the place that had it was 10 minutes from his home. This $9.99 regulator will probably last a life time.

Rex, SuMo, Orlando at GLA, and now Jeremy at OAD have been great at helping people by supplying parts that people need to get very good regulators going. We should thank them.

The Victor thread is not about EOTD. It never was. It was designed to help people save money and to read some information about the workings of regulators and the joy and/or challenge of building their own.

Left C


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## will5 (Sep 30, 2005)

Ok how hard is it to put one of these together if one does not own a vice? I have vice grip pliers would they work?


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

will5 said:


> Ok how hard is it to put one of these together if one does not own a vice? I have vice grip pliers would they work?


There is a discussion about this in the Victor thread. It starts on post #631: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/72328-victor-co2-regulator-pimp-club-43.html


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

I've run my tank down twice with a cheap Aquatek regulator from Ebay and a Fabco NV55. Consistent bps till the end, as far as I could notice, and *no EOTD*.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

jaidexl said:


> I've run my tank down twice with a cheap Aquatek regulator from Ebay and a Fabco NV55. Consistent bps till the end, as far as I could notice, and *no EOTD*.


I think the general conclusion here is that in any case a quality needle valve is the most important piece of equipment for no EOTD. It seems to be that cheap single-stage regulators with quality needle valves will work fine and prevent EOTD. Dual-stage regulators are typically of higher quality, provide other advantages as have been described, including EOTD protection.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

I have a simple question. Do all needle valves have the same screw threads (interchangeability)? I have a M3 regulator that seems to be working fine, as long as I keep it on without touching the main valve once it's set at my desired bubble rate. I'm kinda worried about EOTD due to my heavy fish load in my tank. For piece of mind, I want to change out the needle valve to a tried & true quality valve.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

speedie408 said:


> I have a simple question. Do all needle valves have the same screw threads (interchangeability)?


No they do not.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

The needle and metering valves that I seen on our aquarium regulators have the following threads:
#10-32 male 
#10-32 female
1/8" MNPT
1/8" FNPT


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> The Victor thread is not about EOTD


I don't know about that...How can it not be when I read comments like this: 



> People with dual stage regulators are running their CO2 cylinders until they are empty. They get a week or more use out of them. Many people with single stage regulators swap out their CO2 cylinders when the pressure starts to drop because of their fear of possible EOTD. This is only saving pennies on the CO2, but what is the price of this fear or if EOTD would happen?


or this:



> I've found that I like the precision of my Victor dual stage regulators and the control from my Swagelok and Ideal metering valves. It is like the best of both worlds. It is like having one less thing to worry about. EOTD only crosses my mind when I read about it on the forums.


It IS about EOTD. How can it not be when it is mentioned as your very reason why you run a dual stage regulator.

Let me cut to the chase on a couple of things as I see them. Folks are free to disagree if they like. I don't mind. 



> Many people with single stage regulators swap out their CO2 cylinders when the pressure starts to drop because of their fear of possible EOTD.


I for one don't. I run my bottles to empty with a single stage regulator and a solid metering valve. Heck! I have run bottles with full Milwaukee rigs down to empty with no trouble whatsoever. I have saved just as many pennies with a single stage regulator body and quality metering valve. 



> Here is another reason why I like them. My Victor chrome plated medical grade dual stage VTS253A-1993 CO2 regulators are either brand new or they were purchased in mint condition. I paid between $30 and $50 for them. The shipping was $9.30 if I ordered one or if I ordered two of them; it was $9.30 too. This is for priority shipping. This price is right in line with or maybe even cheaper than the Cornelius Classic and Micro Matic type regulators that I could get from BeverageFactory.com.


Those are eBay prices, so there is no guarantee those prices will be steady. Get into a bidding war and the price will go up. 

Also, when you start adding in shipping fees and insurance on the regulators and add the individual parts price and shipping on top of that and the price goes up even further. You can't build a car for the price of the parts, and the same can be said for regulators. If you want to say you feel you get a slightly better regulator at a slightly higher cost, or you feel better running a dual stage body, then you would be absolutely correct! I have no qualms with a statement like that. But if you are trying to tell me you are getting the Victor or whatever bodied regulator you are choosing and all the parts you need to get it up and running together at a lower price, I would challenge that statement. 

Serge and I sell parts. We see what Rex sells his parts for, and we see what GLA and others sell parts for. If you decide to skip GLA or Rex or us and buy the parts on your own you have to start to figure shipping and handling fees as well as taxes. It certainly isn't cheaper. *It isn't cheaper when you come to the realization that a good metering valve will prevent the dreaded EOTD better than any regulator body will*, _or that EOTD as we have been perceiving it all this time, is *possibly* a myth._ Heck if someone is so concerned about EOTD, you can buy a Milwaukee, JBJ or AZOO regulator and a run a pH controller and prevent it that way. It might be the cheapest way to do it.

I mean really....who has experienced this EOTD everyone is so worried about. I have been running pressurized CO2 for years now and have NEVER seen even the slightest hint of it._ I have been moderating these forums for years as well and I cannot recall reading about someone who had experience EOTD first hand._

Let me add this disclaimer: It is pretty well known now that I am the Mo in SuMo. I am not making these comments over concern about sales. For us, it is about getting the best equipment we can find into the hands of fellow hobbyists. We do well with our full regulator packages, and we do just as well helping people out getting them the parts they need to build their regulators. Item for item, we do better selling parts so it really doesn't matter to us if people want to use one of our single stage bodies or not. 

Sorry if this came off as a rant, it is not my intention. It isn't meant to be a flame on LeftC as he is a really good guy. It isn't meant to be a sales pitch for SuMo, or GLA or Rex for that matter as well. Just my opinion on a topic that seems to have taken on a life of its own.


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

I humbly request that Veriflo regulators be added to the list of quality two stage regulators. I just set one up that I grabbed on ebay and it's a scientific grade instrument that's built like a tank. BTW, like your avatar Left C-now that is the REAL Fleetwood Mac. Gimme some of those Bare Trees too!


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

Well...I had one happen to me but it was under special circumstances: I didn't have a "real" needle valve and I was diffusing the CO2 through a wooden air stone-killed all my fish it did. But it never happened again in the 10-15 years I used that Norgren single stage regulator. Mainly because I previously used a fairly low bubble rate. I now use a CO2 controller on a timer with a fairly high bubble rate to get the CO2 to my target. My concern would be given my current higher bubble rate with a EOTD that my reactor would get air locked before the controller could react to shut off the CO2, then when it restarted it would not work. I feel this gives me an added measure of control.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

MarkMc said:


> I humbly request that Veriflo regulators be added to the list of quality two stage regulators. I just set one up that I grabbed on ebay and it's a scientific grade instrument that's built like a tank. BTW, like your avatar Left C-now that is the REAL Fleetwood Mac. Gimme some of those Bare Trees too!


Thanks a bunch. I'll check out the Veriflo regulators.

Fleetwood Mac is going to be playing near here on April 25 and 26. I hate that Christine McVie isn't going to be with them. I love her voice. Sheryl Crow will be filling in at some of the concerts.

As requested "Sentimental Lady" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EObRmj60WI8&feature=PlayList&p=19CBAFFBE988A904&index=0










Here is an older instrumental classic by Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac that I really like. You know it. "Albatross"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-ctmGG27YI&feature=related

*EDIT:* I just have to add "Hypnotized" from the Mystery to Me album
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg4KMEg34Jc&feature=related


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Momotaro said:


> ... Sorry if this came off as a rant, it is not my intention. It isn't meant to be a flame on LeftC as he is a really good guy. It isn't meant to be a sales pitch for SuMo, or GLA or Rex for that matter as well. Just my opinion on a topic that seems to have taken on a life of its own.


Mike

These dual stage regulators are working really well and I haven't read one single complaint about them. 

Left C


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## wrangler (Oct 14, 2007)

Victor Compressed Gas Regulator. Model VTS 250d. Max Inlet 3000 PSIG. One gauge goes up to 1400kPa / 200PSI and the other gauge goes up to 28000kPa / 4000PSI. This is a used unit. 

Found this one .......seller states that it is a 2 stage regulator......so how about this one?? (got fingers crossed that this one is a good one?)


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I had an "end of tank dump" every time my 5 pound tank ran out of liquid CO2, using a Milwaukee regulator. I also watched carefully a few times to see why it happened, and the reason was that the outlet pressure from the regulator would rise considerably as the inlet pressure dropped. Since the flow rate through a needle valve, no matter how expensive, cheap, good, or poor it is, is directly proportional to the inlet pressure to the needle valve, the bubble rate would rise as the regulator outlet pressure went up.

A needle valve is just a variable orifice, and for the flow rates we use, that orifice is so small that the flow through the needle valve is laminar, meaning that the flow rate is proportional to the differential pressure across the valve and not the square root of the differential pressure. So, an increase in the pressure applied to the needle valve increases the bubble rate proportionally.

I have no idea whether or not all Milwaukee regulators work as mine did, but I do know how mine operated. From other's experience reported here, I have to assume I had a lemon of a Milwaukee regulator. I am totally satisfied with the 2 stage regulator I now use - no end of tank dump at all.


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## rrrrramos (Jan 24, 2008)

wrangler said:


> Victor Compressed Gas Regulator. Model VTS 250d. Max Inlet 3000 PSIG. One gauge goes up to 1400kPa / 200PSI and the other gauge goes up to 28000kPa / 4000PSI. This is a used unit.
> 
> Found this one .......seller states that it is a 2 stage regulator......so how about this one?? (got fingers crossed that this one is a good one?)


I'm no expert, but I believe the model # should be VTS253D-320, but they may be the same, or possibly made for use with different gas.
The 320 denotes that it is made to be used with CO2.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

wrangler said:


> Victor Compressed Gas Regulator. Model VTS 250d. Max Inlet 3000 PSIG. One gauge goes up to 1400kPa / 200PSI and the other gauge goes up to 28000kPa / 4000PSI. This is a used unit.
> 
> Found this one .......seller states that it is a 2 stage regulator......so how about this one?? (got fingers crossed that this one is a good one?)


Hi wrangler. Here is a NIB New Victor VTS 253A-320 Regulator w/gauges Item number: 350186260268.

The VTS 253 "A" model CO2 regulators are no longer made by Victor. The "A" model is excellent for our use. "B", "C" and "D" models are still made.

I got a new VTS-253D-320 for $60. It works great too. There is a picture of it in the Victor thread.

All of the Victor VTS regulators are dual stage. I remember the VTS lettering by calling it: "*V*ictor *T*win *S*tage." I don't know if it is right or wrong, but it helps me to keep them straight.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I dont understand this comment Mike. A dual stage regulator by design will not allow the output pressure to vary from what you set it, negating ANY risk of an EOTD and a NV is exactly what Hoppy describes it as, a controller of gas flow related to what the input pressure is. 

If you have a single stage regulator that allows the input to your high quality NV to to raise bubble rate will also rise proportionally causing excess co2 to be injected into the tank. Isnt this the very EOTD we are talking about?



Momotaro said:


> *It isn't cheaper when you come to the realization that a good metering valve will prevent the dreaded EOTD better than any regulator body will*,.





Hoppy said:


> I had an "end of tank dump" every time my 5 pound tank ran out of liquid CO2, using a Milwaukee regulator. I also watched carefully a few times to see why it happened, and the reason was that the outlet pressure from the regulator would rise considerably as the inlet pressure dropped. Since the flow rate through a needle valve, no matter how expensive, cheap, good, or poor it is, is directly proportional to the inlet pressure to the needle valve, the bubble rate would rise as the regulator outlet pressure went up.
> 
> A needle valve is just a variable orifice, and for the flow rates we use, that orifice is so small that the flow through the needle valve is laminar, meaning that the flow rate is proportional to the differential pressure across the valve and not the square root of the differential pressure. So, an increase in the pressure applied to the needle valve increases the bubble rate proportionally.
> 
> I have no idea whether or not all Milwaukee regulators work as mine did, but I do know how mine operated. From other's experience reported here, I have to assume I had a lemon of a Milwaukee regulator. I am totally satisfied with the 2 stage regulator I now use - no end of tank dump at all.


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## cpeebles (Jan 30, 2016)

Be careful on buying the Regulators on [Ebay Link Removed] I purchased one and the fitting did not fit the standard CGA 320 fitting that is the standard fitting on C02 tanks!


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