# Question about pure line shrimp such as benibachi



## reefdive (Aug 16, 2011)

That depends on how your selling skills are . From my experience though most people are skeptical and they will not have the appeal of getting them from the originator . Kind of like buying designer clothes . Even if you have the same item from the same manufacturer you will not get as much . But that is only my opinion . They are super nice shrimp


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## Mike Hawk (Mar 9, 2012)

Hmm that's interesting so it's a matter of trust then. Are there any legal reasons you could get in trouble for selling your shrimp as benibachi shrimp even though you have kept them pure?


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

I remember the distributor of Benibachi stating something along the lines of "it can be only listed as benibachi shrimp only if the shrimp was raised in the benibachi shrimp factory in Japan"


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## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

Mike Hawk said:


> Hmm that's interesting so it's a matter of trust then. Are there any legal reasons you could get in trouble for selling your shrimp as benibachi shrimp even though you have kept them pure?


i think its ethics..

Benibachi shrimp from their farms..

your f1's would be from Benibachi parents.. 
your shrimp would not be from the farm..


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## reefdive (Aug 16, 2011)

Mike Hawk said:


> I gotta question, if i order some benibachi shrimp and they have babies that look just as good or better then the parents can they still be sold as benibachi shrimp and sell them for what i paid for the parents as long as i never mix with a different pure line?
> 
> Also what are some of the most popular Pure lines for CRS and how is the grading different for the pure lines.
> I heard a pure line grade SSS is very rare with most pure lines topping out at ss grade.
> ...


 In my experience and others with more experience than myself if the original breeder has a line established I would hope to get the same and be happy with that as offspring . They are using the best techniques and have more knowledge and experience so it won't be easy to improve on what they have done with their skill and knowledge . A lot of other factors go into it than just picking out the better shrimp ( if you get better shrimp ) Buy the best you can afford and be happy with what comes out of them . And make sure you understand your market and what the market will bear . Some people do break the mold but others are just lucky to break even ( seems like I get stuck in the even category  )


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Benibachi, crimson, etc, all those lines are only considered that line if born in their farms (or authorized breeders farms).

The whole reason is because what would stop you from buying some regular SS crs from someone on the SNS, breeding them, and then reselling them saying they're benibachi? 

That is the whole reason you get a farm raised shrimp from the farm


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## sayurasem (Jun 17, 2011)

Out of curiousity, I have notice the benibachi hype just started 1/2 months ago. How come it takes this long until the farm selling it to the public? 

Plus just read that jimko just has some berried one.


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## Mike Hawk (Mar 9, 2012)

Thanks everyone that clears a lot up. Another question, can anybody start their own pure line get a farm going and sell their own pure line shrimp after years of refining? Can you name it what ever you want like xmen shrimp or something.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Mike Hawk said:


> Thanks everyone that clears a lot up. Another question, can anybody start their own pure line get a farm going and sell their own pure line shrimp after years of refining? Can you name it what ever you want like xmen shrimp or something.



You can start a pure line whenever you want, but you have no presence.

The reason benibachi, or crimson, or MFF, or black impact have any sort of presence in the market, is because they are established, well known breeders of the highest quality shrimp available.

You could sell your "pure line" shrimp, but no one would buy it when they've never heard of your shrimp, or seen the high quality year after year.


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## Mike Hawk (Mar 9, 2012)

mordalphus said:


> You can start a pure line whenever you want, but you have no presence.
> 
> The reason benibachi, or crimson, or MFF, or black impact have any sort of presence in the market, is because they are established, well known breeders of the highest quality shrimp available.
> 
> You could sell your "pure line" shrimp, but no one would buy it when they've never heard of your shrimp, or seen the high quality year after year.


Very interesting thanks for the quick response


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## AlisaR (Dec 7, 2011)

Shawn here in California is the Original Shrimper with his own Pure Line. Kept S grade CRS when we were all keeping ghost shrimp from Walmart. He sells in the Swap and Shop.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

AlisaR said:


> Shawn here in California is the Original Shrimper with his own Pure Line. Kept S grade CRS when we were all keeping ghost shrimp from Walmart. He sells in the Swap and Shop.


kangshiang for those not on a first name basis


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## Jorge_Burrito (Nov 10, 2010)

sayurasem said:


> Out of curiousity, I have notice the benibachi hype just started 1/2 months ago. How come it takes this long until the farm selling it to the public?
> 
> Plus just read that jimko just has some berried one.


They have been selling elsewhere, especially in Japan for awhile, these shrimp just have not been available here in US. About a month or two ago they started importing here into US. What we have available here in the US always seems a year or more behind places like Germany, Japan, and Thailand where the big farms are.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Jorge_Burrito said:


> They have been selling elsewhere, especially in Japan for awhile, these shrimp just have not been available here in US. About a month or two ago they started importing here into US. What we have available here in the US always seems a year or more behind places like Germany, Japan, and Thailand where the big farms are.


I'm actually in the midst of writing a blog article about this. In Japan, the shrimp available in stores are 90% hobbyist "farms", and 10% large farms like crimson and benibachi. They have a different way of doing things, and hobbyist (living room farms), are more common in shrimp and fish stores. The large farms seem to do better out of country than inside. But yeah, the USA is more like 5 years behind Japan, and 2 years behind germany. Not because the shrimp aren't available, it's because people here are not ready to spend money to get shrimp that are available overseas.

Look at benibachi, they're selling 100% true breeding OEBT, and people are skeptical about buying them. Why? Because they're 5 times the price of a regular OEBT? Think about it, benibachi has a huge presence in the world of shrimpkeeping, why would they stake their reputation on a false claim?

In america, market is "driven into the ground", instead of "driving to quality". Everyone here wants to pay low amounts for shrimp, instead of paying a decent amount and getting what they pay for. It's just the way our market works. We will catch up to overseas shrimp market when the overseas market is tired of their shrimp and start selling to us for 1/10th the price.


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## Jorge_Burrito (Nov 10, 2010)

mordalphus said:


> I'm actually in the midst of writing a blog article about this. In Japan, the shrimp available in stores are 90% hobbyist "farms", and 10% large farms like crimson and benibachi. They have a different way of doing things, and hobbyist (living room farms), are more common in shrimp and fish stores. The large farms seem to do better out of country than inside. But yeah, the USA is more like 5 years behind Japan, and 2 years behind germany. Not because the shrimp aren't available, it's because people here are not ready to spend money to get shrimp that are available overseas.
> 
> Look at benibachi, they're selling 100% true breeding OEBT, and people are skeptical about buying them. Why? Because they're 5 times the price of a regular OEBT? Think about it, benibachi has a huge presence in the world of shrimpkeeping, why would they stake their reputation on a false claim?
> 
> In america, market is "driven into the ground", instead of "driving to quality". Everyone here wants to pay low amounts for shrimp, instead of paying a decent amount and getting what they pay for. It's just the way our market works. We will catch up to overseas shrimp market when the overseas market is tired of their shrimp and start selling to us for 1/10th the price.


Interesting regarding the "hobbyist farms" in Japan, didn't realize that. While I certainly would love to see better quality shrimp over here, as you say I am not willing to pay so much for my shrimp (and I am willing to pay quite a bit more than a lot of people). Maybe it is a cultural thing, or maybe it is we just haven't developed the fanatical base yet that is willing to pay that much. Honestly I think it is always going to be a limitation here in the states, their is a reason Walmart is so successful. I certainly would like to see individual hobbyist start to drive more to improve their shrimps in their own tanks, though. It is not even about starting your own line or anything like that, but it is pretty easy to do things like cull out your tank pretty heavily and to do some selective breeding to improve the colors of your shrimp and you just don't see those things being done.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Agreed! Our availability and market will never be like overseas because our culture is much different. But we have to work with what we have, and in the meantime, I don't think we are doing too bad. I would love to sell other hobbyist shrimp in my store! Maybe I will set up a consignment some day soon and move to more of a Japanese style shrimp store! That would be great!





Jorge_Burrito said:


> Interesting regarding the "hobbyist farms" in Japan, didn't realize that. While I certainly would love to see better quality shrimp over here, as you say I am not willing to pay so much for my shrimp (and I am willing to pay quite a bit more than a lot of people). Maybe it is a cultural thing, or maybe it is we just haven't developed the fanatical base yet that is willing to pay that much. Honestly I think it is always going to be a limitation here in the states, their is a reason Walmart is so successful. I certainly would like to see individual hobbyist start to drive more to improve their shrimps in their own tanks, though. It is not even about starting your own line or anything like that, but it is pretty easy to do things like cull out your tank pretty heavily and to do some selective breeding to improve the colors of your shrimp and you just don't see those things being done.


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

You have to factor in the cultural difference...

For example, the Japanese are fanatical about the things they love which goes well beyond age, gender like cars, Phones, gadgets, anime and hen tai haha. With that said, the world over loves anything jdm. They do things on the extreme and push the envelope were other parts of the world culturally do not. One may have mosura, benibachi,crimson farmed shrimp with their environment but their offspring will likely never have that. In fairness one may try to sell offspring from these high end breeds with their genes but don't expect to fetch the same market as their parents raising them unless you have several generations under your belt and have something unique to bring to market.

This is Just the opinion of a novice shrimp keeper with no intentions of breeding for profit.


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## youjettisonme (Dec 24, 2010)

I have some thoughts on Pure Line and shrimps in general...

First off, the Pure Line's are simply beautiful shrimp. There is no denying that. However, people should understand what they're purchasing. If you spend $360 x 4 on a stable of SS Benibachi, and then decided you will start a breeding project with Benibachi shrimp, you've spent about $1500. Once they breed well for you, and your colony is established, how much can you expect to sell them for and to whom will you sell them?

Honestly, you won't sell them but for just a fraction of what you paid. They will be beautiful shrimp, and they will have a terrific lineage, but as this thread explains, they are no longer Benibachi shrimp. They are Jane or Joe Blow hobby shrimp with great genes. This is a HUGE difference. You could even say that the disparity is greater than when you buy a new car and drive if off the lot. At least in that case, people understand that it really is a genuine Audi, and they don't have to worry that you've actually crossed it with Jaguar genes, or that you've added an after-market spoiler kit or some such nonsense. 

The only people that will be able to get away with selling Pure Lines at even 75% of retail would be those hobbyists who are very well established and already respected in the hobby. Be that Liam, Nick, etc.... However, Liam and Nick are importers first and breeders a distant second. There is a trust factor there, and this type of shrimp requires trust. Considering what the denizens of our little community went through with TSL only recently, trust will always be an issue. 

Personally, I am going to attempt to breed PRL, but I will mix them from different lines because I stand a better chance at breeding healthy shrimp, and because it doesn't make that much sense to keep the different lines pure in and of themselves. Once I have enough to sell, I realize very well that I will be selling Jetty shrimp and not a shrimp with some particular name brand. 

Also, a note on Taiwans in a similar vain. The community is littered with people who have tried to breed them. The folks that do breed them contend that they have "secrets" that they are weary to share that would allow folks to successfully keep and breed this strain of shrimp. They do this for financial gain. Obviously, as word spreads about how difficult it is to see offspring survive until adulthood (assuming your original shrimp survive, berry, and and see babies), people become more and more weary about forking over half a bill + per shrimp. They are far and away the most attractive shrimp IMO, but the price-point for something that might only last 18 months if you're lucky is prohibitive.

Can you imagine if other "pet dealers" employed similar tactics? 

"Yes, I will sell you this rare puppy that costs 50x what our other puppies cost, but there's a fair chance it will be dead soon unless the puppy environment is spot-on prefect. Sure, yeah, I know a secret that will keep that puppy you just bought from me alive, but I'm not allowed to share that secret with you." 

What kind of pet store wouldn't go out of business if they employed that kind of tactic? It boggles the mind. I know that our local dealers of Taiwans are engaging in no such nefarious tactics, and don't get me wrong, I will still gladly buy Taiwans from them, but I think that most of the general public who makes these purchases end up ill-informed, at least for awhile. 

The PRL are kind of a different but similar example. If you really have $360 to throw down on one shrimp, at least understand what you're purchasing. You won't be paying off your mortgage any time soon. You are buying them because they are half art/half pet to you, something any aquarist may appreciate.


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## antiquefloorman (Oct 8, 2011)

So you are saying I should import pure lines and sell them rather than import them and breed because no one will believe that the offspring are from these shrimp that I imported??


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

youjettisonme said:


> Personally, I am going to attempt to breed PRL, but I will mix them from different lines because I stand a better chance at breeding healthy shrimp, and because it doesn't make that much sense to keep the different lines pure in and of themselves. Once I have enough to sell, I realize very well that I will be selling Jetty shrimp and not a shrimp with some particular name brand.


My guess is that something along these lines will be what happens with PRL in the US, especially in the hobbyist market like here.

1) people want high grade shrimp but don't care as much about pedigree or status in the US.

2) If you lose the pure line designation once you breed the shrimp then there is less incentive to line breed so why not mix using various PRL shrimp in order to make the shrimp more robust and easier to keep. If you have to start your own 'pure line' then why not make it one with a wider (but still pure and high quality) gene pool?


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## mcqueenesq (Aug 29, 2011)

I don't have a horse in this race, but I don't understand how two consenting JPL shrimp lose their pedigree by having sex in America. That isn't the way it works with other animal breeds. I'd have to see the Benibachi sales/import contract to be sure, but you can bet that if I were selling any offspring from such a union I'd be advertising their lineage.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

mcqueenesq said:


> I don't have a horse in this race, but I don't understand how two consenting JPL shrimp lose their pedigree by having sex in America. That isn't the way it works with other animal breeds. I'd have to see the Benibachi sales/import contract to be sure, but you can bet that if I were selling any offspring from such a union I'd be advertising their lineage.


It does work that way though. Say you bought two ABC Breeding Kennel dogs and bred them. You can sell them as having ABC Breeding Kennel genes but you can't say the puppies came from ABC Breeding Kennel, because they didn't. They came from you and there is no way to say if both the parents were from that Kennel or not.

What a lot of people don't realize is when breeding PRL's, they cull 95% of the shrimp and only keep the best 5%. How can they control if you breed 2 and sell 100% of the babies with blotchy colors, or whites and pass them off as that PRL line. They wouldn't do that. They only sell the cream of the crop, especially for the higher grades.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

GeToChKn said:


> It does work that way though. Say you bought two ABC Breeding Kennel dogs and bred them. You can sell them as having ABC Breeding Kennel genes but you can't say the puppies came from ABC Breeding Kennel, because they didn't. They came from you and there is no way to say if both the parents were from that Kennel or not.
> 
> What a lot of people don't realize is when breeding PRL's, they cull 95% of the shrimp and only keep the best 5%. How can they control if you breed 2 and sell 100% of the babies with blotchy colors, or whites and pass them off as that PRL line. They wouldn't do that. They only sell the cream of the crop, especially for the higher grades.


Not only that but with the higher grade shrimp I am under the impression that the lines are stabilized (i.e. they breed true at a high rate) which indicates just how much extra time and breeding has gone into them.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

madness said:


> Not only that but with the higher grade shrimp I am under the impression that the lines are stabilized (i.e. they breed true at a high rate) which indicates just how much extra time and breeding has gone into them.


Yup, they usually are and they still cull lots of them that don't make the snuff. Just like buying a dog, you can buy a "show" dog or a "pet" dog. the pet dog may have the same genes as the rest of the litter and the show dogs, but has a tiny white patch somewhere which makes it non-show quality, or the ears aren't the right length.


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## sketch804 (Mar 2, 2011)

now kinda on the same topic..what is so good about these so called 'pure lines'?? Why would I pay $140+ for one shrimp?? Does it breed true eveytime or something like that? I am just missing the reason why they are worth so much to people?? To me, that is just insane to pay that for ONE little shimp, but people do it all the time..just a thought..thnx!
Also is it true that you cant just keep breeding better looking crs together to step up the grade or do you HAVE to have some sorta great genetics to achive a very high grade like SSS(+)?? I am in the dark on this..ha


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## youjettisonme (Dec 24, 2010)

antiquefloorman said:


> So you are saying I should import pure lines and sell them rather than import them and breed because no one will believe that the offspring are from these shrimp that I imported??


It is not really about believing you. It's just that Pure Lines lose considerable value if they are not bred by the name-brand breeder. You can never breed "Benibachi Shrimp". You can breed Antiquefloorman Shrimp from Benibachi stock. No doubt, they will still be worth something significantly more than other CRS, but it's not like you have a Pure Line selling reputation. Now, if you bred them year after year, got crazy great reviews from all outlets? Put out beautiful dark red, uber white shrimp? Just by default, you will make a name for yourself as a breeder, and in the US market, that would be saying something since all the "respected" breeders still reside in Asia. 

If you really did develop a great import connection, then of course, go for it. I am sure there are many out there attempting to do the same. It's only recently that we are seeing Benibachi, Ebi-ten, and Crimson threads.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

sketch804 said:


> now kinda on the same topic..what is so good about these so called 'pure lines'?? Why would I pay $140+ for one shrimp?? Does it breed true eveytime or something like that? I am just missing the reason why they are worth so much to people?? To me, that is just insane to pay that for ONE little shimp, but people do it all the time..just a thought..thnx!
> Also is it true that you cant just keep breeding better looking crs together to step up the grade or do you HAVE to have some sorta great genetics to achive a very high grade like SSS(+)?? I am in the dark on this..ha



They have been bred to breed mostly true, the legs are usually almost all white and red, the whites and reds on the shrimp are a solid, solid color.

Look at the difference between










and












Why would someone pay $3000 for a dog when they can one from the pound from free? Because they want the name, the genes. Why do people buy a $75,000 Mustang car and not a Dodge Neon for $12,000? People like to spend money on things they like whether it's a $1000 video card that will be $250 in 3 months, or a $140 shrimp.


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## mcqueenesq (Aug 29, 2011)

GeToChKn said:


> It does work that way though. Say you bought two ABC Breeding Kennel dogs and bred them. You can sell them as having ABC Breeding Kennel genes but you can't say the puppies came from ABC Breeding Kennel, because they didn't. They came from you and there is no way to say if both the parents were from that Kennel or not.


Once the lineage of the parents has been established, it's simply a matter of registering the litter with the AKC. It's not about the kennel, it's about the breed. We're paying for the genes—JPL genes—not the breeder's techniques. Rather, that's what we should be paying for, or does the emperor have no clothes?

I say let the quality of Benibachi shrimp speak for itself. If the cull rates are as high as you say, then Benibachi has nothing to fear from shipping extremely sensitive shrimp thousands of miles to a bunch of silly gaijin who are willing to pay $1000 a piece for them.

I understand your point, and for the record I wouldn't say that the offspring shrimp came from Benibachi. I would say that their parents did. And I wouldn't expect to be able to demand as much for them as their parents.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

mcqueenesq said:


> Once the lineage of the parents has been established, it's simply a matter of registering the litter with the AKC. It's not about the kennel, it's about the breed. We're paying for the genes—JPL genes—not the breeder's techniques. Rather, that's what we should be paying for, or does the emperor have no clothes?
> 
> I say let the quality of Benibachi shrimp speak for itself. If the cull rates are as high as you say, then Benibachi has nothing to fear from shipping extremely sensitive shrimp thousands of miles to a bunch of silly gaijin who are willing to pay $1000 a piece for them.


Yes, you can register with the AKC, you can say your dog came from there but puppies from a 3rd generation of parents from ABC aren't really ABC dogs anymore. They are your dogs with ABC lineage. If you've even been involved in high end dog breeding, just like with PRL, there are certain kennel names that stand out, everyone knows, etc when it comes the breed X. You look at the way they sell their dogs, there is one for $4000, two for $3500, 4 for $2000 and 3 for $1000. They are graded too. lol.

I'm not sure if the PRL guys cull as much anymore, and culling can mean moving a shrimp from a $350 tank to a $160 tank because of something about the coloring.




mcqueenesq said:


> I understand your point, and for the record I wouldn't say that the offspring shrimp came from Benibachi. I would say that their parents did. And I wouldn't expect to be able to demand as much for them as their parents.



That's about it and what I would do too. They quality of photos of your shrimp would stand for itself on the quality of them, and allow you to set a price for nice looking shrimp.


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## sketch804 (Mar 2, 2011)

GeToChKn said:


> They have been bred to breed mostly true, the legs are usually almost all white and red, the whites and reds on the shrimp are a solid, solid color.
> 
> Why would someone pay $3000 for a dog when they can one from the pound from free? Because they want the name, the genes. Why do people buy a $75,000 Mustang car and not a Dodge Neon for $12,000? People like to spend money on things they like whether it's a $1000 video card that will be $250 in 3 months, or a $140 shrimp.


Sounds good to me, that's what I thought..and til you put these two high quality pix next to each other I never really seen a difference..but now I do 100x over..so I guess the same can be achieved through line breeding stock and culling..just will take a lot longer, where as these expensive ones have done the work already..thanx! Hey I am just happy either way to have some nice looking shrimp, IMO I like the S grade A LOT better than the SSS because the candy cane look is what I go for..

Ha and PS: Ya that's right who would pay $75K for a pos mustang! Haha, right, if I want a REAL car I can think of some better like the camero or a charger, etc.. 
Just IMO though....not trying to make ne one mad..just hate mustangs..


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## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

I'm into discus and have stendker discus. If I were to breed them and sell them as stendker discus I would be crucified. I can sell them as offspring of stendker discus though. Stendker are bred by stendker in germany and have their own culling and QC protocols. A home breeder will not produce the same fish even from the same stock.


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## hedge_fund (Jan 1, 2006)

I just picked some up from Benibachi but will not be arriving until about 2 weeks. Are the water parameters pretty much the same as regular higher grade CRS? I am keeping SS/SSS CRS with no issues and they are breeding like crazy. Do I have good chances of my benibachi shrimp surviving?


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## antiquefloorman (Oct 8, 2011)

Hedge fund,
What are your water parameters??
Thanks,
Tim


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## Alpha Pro Breeders (Jan 26, 2010)

GeToChKn said:


> They have been bred to breed mostly true, the legs are usually almost all white and red, the whites and reds on the shrimp are a solid, solid color.
> 
> Look at the difference between
> 
> ...


Could you have picked a uglier shrimp from our web site


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## HiepSTA (Aug 23, 2011)

^^^
hahahaha


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## thechibi (Jan 20, 2012)

I figure if nothing else, a pureline shrimp is great for personal enjoyment and sharing shrimp pics. I'm still wiping up drool.


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## HiepSTA (Aug 23, 2011)

are you sure thats drool? lol


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## antiquefloorman (Oct 8, 2011)

Alpha Pro Breeders said:


> Could you have picked a uglier shrimp from our web site


LOL!!!! I was thinking the same thing!!


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## Max Kenji (Mar 11, 2012)

Hi all,

I just want to clarify a few things, I hope we'll have a better understanding about breeding PRL.
According to Mr. Hagiwara - the owner of Ebi-ten 
* If you keep the shrimps that are the same grade and have the same pattern, your offspring most likely will look just like their parents (I'd say about 95%).
* You won't receive any snow/golden offspring (Glass shrimp in Japanese)
Each Farm also have their own method of culling and grading.
Baby shrimps are kept in the separated tank and they will be feed growth enzyme and color enhancement from day 1. So if we breed these shrimps here in our facility in Philadelphia, their quality won't be the same as in the farm.

@hedge_fund: don't worry too much about water parameter, they are not that sensitive at all. Different grade shrimps were kept in the same environment. Btw the shrimps you are about to receive are Ebi-ten. They are two different farms. Ebi-ten shrimps have black-ish red while Benibachi is brighter.

Good luck Shrimping,
Max


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

lol. Wasn't trying to say anything about site, just googled. lol.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

Thanks for your input Max. 

There are likely to be many of these types of discussions/arguments/etc. as American hobbyists try to adapt these JPRL to our hobby over here. Better strap in.


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## hedge_fund (Jan 1, 2006)

antiquefloorman said:


> Hedge fund,
> What are your water parameters??
> Thanks,
> Tim


TDS: 165
PH: 6.4
GH: 5
KH: 0
ammonia,nitrite,nitrate: 0



Max Kenji said:


> @hedge_fund: don't worry too much about water parameter, they are not that sensitive at all. Different grade shrimps were kept in the same environment. Btw the shrimps you are about to receive are Ebi-ten. They are two different farms. Ebi-ten shrimps have black-ish red while Benibachi is brighter.
> 
> Good luck Shrimping,
> Max


Nice that's what I meant. I only said "benibachi" since that used to be your screen name here and I'm getting these from you. haha.


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## antiquefloorman (Oct 8, 2011)

Max Kenji said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I just want to clarify a few things, I hope we'll have a better understanding about breeding PRL.
> According to Mr. Hagiwara - the owner of Ebi-ten
> ...


Max,
The shrimp you breed at your facility in Philly will be marketed and sold as what??
Thanks,
Tim


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## Alpha Pro Breeders (Jan 26, 2010)

GeToChKn said:


> lol. Wasn't trying to say anything about site, just googled. lol.


 No problem, just looked like a Rolls Royce sitting next to my first car in high school.


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## Senior Shrimpo (Dec 4, 2010)

youjettisonme said:


> Also, a note on Taiwans in a similar vain. The community is littered with people who have tried to breed them. The folks that do breed them contend that they have "secrets" that they are weary to share that would allow folks to successfully keep and breed this strain of shrimp. They do this for financial gain. Obviously, as word spreads about how difficult it is to see offspring survive until adulthood (assuming your original shrimp survive, berry, and and see babies), people become more and more weary about forking over half a bill + per shrimp. They are far and away the most attractive shrimp IMO, but the price-point for something that might only last 18 months if you're lucky is prohibitive.
> 
> Can you imagine if other "pet dealers" employed similar tactics?
> 
> "Yes, I will sell you this rare puppy that costs 50x what our other puppies cost, but there's a fair chance it will be dead soon unless the puppy environment is spot-on prefect. Sure, yeah, I know a secret that will keep that puppy you just bought from me alive, but I'm not allowed to share that secret with you."


-High oxygen content in water (run sponge filters just for oxygen)
-Extremely stable water conditions (e.g big tank, 30 or so gallons)
-large amounts of biofilm (moss, leaves, driftwood)
-low pH (they seem to do better in the pH range of 5s, but will still do well in the 6.2-6.5 range if other conditions are met)
-a stable tds of 130-230, lower kh and higher gh.
-[strike]magical fairy powder[/strike]
-some good food and some baby food (get some Ei. they'll love it )

Ask and ye shall receive. I think that was more in the case of previous shrimp tycoons like Nikki who would withhold information from us. Also we were all hobbyists and the businesses were also ran by hobbyists. I agree that the it-depends-on-who-you-know shrimp attitude was kind of silly and juvenile. But right now the information is all right there, people have been tackling taiwans successfully for a while now. I mean, Liam has a thread detailing how to make a TB tank, what to feed them, etc. and how he keeps his. That's not secretive at all.

Also yeah that puppy metaphor was spot on.


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## Max Kenji (Mar 11, 2012)

antiquefloorman said:


> Max,
> The shrimp you breed at your facility in Philly will be marketed and sold as what??
> Thanks,
> Tim


Tim,
All offspring will be removed. We don't have permission and we won't breed shrimps for resale. And they haven't got chance to breed yet lol since they stay here only 1-2 weeks before I send them out again.
Max


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## Mike Hawk (Mar 9, 2012)

So i got another question. Benibachi CRS A grade mosura i have seen pictures of them with patterns of ss shrimp why is it considered A grade? what are the differences from Pure line grading scale and normal crs scale?

I understand that intensity of color and coloring of legs is very important but what are the specifics if there are any.


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## HiepSTA (Aug 23, 2011)

mike the same still applies A<S<SS<SSS but this refers to the color quality, the pattern quality is described with words such as hinomaru(we normally categorize this as SS), V-band(S), mixed band(A/S), and mosura(SSS)

the grades in the parenthesis' indicate what we call them in america

so a grade A mosura would be a shrimp with A grade coloration, with an SSS pattern

but note that grade A being the lowest of benibachi's standards, is still far higher quality in color than most CRS you will see for sale from america


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## plamski (Sep 25, 2009)

Can somebody post good picture of already received A grade benibachi?


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## HiepSTA (Aug 23, 2011)

i have one, this is grade A mosura


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## youjettisonme (Dec 24, 2010)

Senior Shrimpo said:


> -High oxygen content in water (run sponge filters just for oxygen)
> -Extremely stable water conditions (e.g big tank, 30 or so gallons)
> -large amounts of biofilm (moss, leaves, driftwood)
> -low pH (they seem to do better in the pH range of 5s, but will still do well in the 6.2-6.5 range if other conditions are met)
> ...


Yeah, these are pretty much my tank parameters exactly. Although you struck the "magical ferry powder" part as a joke, people are swearing by BT-9 and the equivalent. The big "secret" most people were not spelling out was tons of oxygen and beneficial bacteria. Of course, you can get that going via the UGF route be creating a whole substrate of beneficial bacteria, and putting in lots of air-driven sponges doesn't hurt either. And with water changes, maybe you are dosing BT-9.


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## shrimpster (Jan 31, 2012)

I have no doubt there will be American pure lines available (already are khangshiang) that will have the status of the Aisan ones. 

Problem is by then, they'll be throwing down some tri-color sweetness that everyone'll be all :bounce::bounce: over.

I don't want to be naive or nothing, but I think the real reason all these pure lines are showing up here now is a sign the american market is maturing.

More experience=more knowledge and sites like this that share that knowledge will continue driving the hobby in the americas to the cutting edge instead of the trailing edge. 

I used to freak out about cherry's costing 5 bucks at the lfs. So much money I thought.

Now I don't hesitate spending ten times that. It's cheaper than a dinner at Applebee's and it lasts waaaay longer.:icon_mrgr.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

I think that HiepSTA's picture sums up perfectly why people are so excited to get these shrimp.

Regardless of the pattern or coverage the color intensity and consistency is just so amazing.


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## plamski (Sep 25, 2009)

If it is A grade how much more white can have $1300 one?!?!?!?
I'll buy 2-3 of them to see how my water reflects colorization.

Did somebody mention that when they move low grade shrimps in new ADA soil setup their white color get 2-4x more deep after molting. I’m experiencing it already in 3 of my new tanks.


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## Mike Hawk (Mar 9, 2012)

HiepSTA said:


> mike the same still applies A<S<SS<SSS but this refers to the color quality, the pattern quality is described with words such as hinomaru(we normally categorize this as SS), V-band(S), mixed band(A/S), and mosura(SSS)
> 
> the grades in the parenthesis' indicate what we call them in america
> 
> ...


Ah that makes more sense. My brain is having problems wrapping its self around this now, why is it that people label shrimp on the SnS sss grade if most of the time the color quality is not up to par.(broken up white or dirt white) If c-sss is color grading then why does it seem that people are grading based on pattern because iv seen some ugly sss grade shrimp. Is it because they are miss graded or have we not caught on yet to what is true sss ? Help my child sized brain lol.

So let see if I get this straight c-sss is for intensity of color and pattern is just said in words. So my shrimp that have good color and a lot of red are graded higher than my badly colored but very little red? 
This is kind of wierd to me because all this time I though grading was based on the pattern that’s why I thought it was ok for people to sell badly colored sss shrimp on the SnS because they had very little red even though they looked like po was lightly rubbed on their shells :hihi:.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Mike Hawk said:


> Ah that makes more sense. My brain is having problems wrapping its self around this now, why is it that people label shrimp on the SnS sss grade if most of the time the color quality is not up to par.(broken up white or dirt white) If c-sss is color grading then why does it seem that people are grading based on pattern because iv seen some ugly sss grade shrimp. Is it because they are miss graded or have we not caught on yet to what is true sss ? Help my child sized brain lol.
> 
> So let see if I get this straight c-sss is for intensity of color and pattern is just said in words. So my shrimp that have good color and a lot of red are graded higher than my badly colored but very little red?
> This is kind of wierd to me because all this time I though grading was based on the pattern that’s why I thought it was ok for people to sell badly colored sss shrimp on the SnS because they had very little red even though they looked like po was lightly rubbed on their shells :hihi:.


The Japanese are adapting a new grading scale with color, intensity, leg color, etc going on the C-SSS scale and pattern secondary, sometimes with the pattern name adapted. So a A grade hino might have a hino dot and OK coloring on their scale compared to a SS grade hino which will still have the hino dot but more solid white, almost solid legs, etc. 

They have abandoned the old scale we still use as they gave up breeding for unique patterns a while ago and went back to basic with color being the main goal, not fancy headgear.

I do agree, I see some SSS online that are horrible looking. Yes they may have mostly white with a colored headgear but the white is all washed out and blotchy.

Basically just take the base price for a lower grade PRL shrimp, times that by 3 to get to the next grade price wise. lol.


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## Mike Hawk (Mar 9, 2012)

Wwell that's good news as i thought i had lower grade shrimp because their pattern was a little lacking as most are no entry mosura or v bands but I'm pleased to see that coloring is important as most of my shrimp have very nice coloring although not close to banibachi shrimp...


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Mike Hawk said:


> Wwell that's good news as i thought i had lower grade shrimp because their pattern was a little lacking as most are no entry mosura or v bands but I'm pleased to see that coloring is important as most of my shrimp have very nice coloring although not close to banibachi shrimp...


Ya, slowly I think over here now they we see what a nice solid colored crystal should look like, we are slowly becoming more critical of what a good shrimp should look like, regardless of pattern. Myself, I am setting up more tanks so I can cull some from my tanks and only keep the better looking ones. I have a few that have some nice leg coloring already going on and I want to keep that going.


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

I'm just happy that JPRL CRS is now available in North America. If you have the cash a $1000 shrimp can be yours....if you want...that wasn't even really an option 6 months ago. For a long time we would get breeder's culls. They might looked great to us but make no mistake about it the didn't make the cut for private stock or Japan. The non-cull top tier shrimps would either remain private or sent off to Japan and auctioned off at ungodly prices. The $950 to $100 range shrimps now still might not be the top of the top, but is absolutely a huge step up for the NA market. Very exciting.:thumbsup:


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