# 33Gal Cube - Cubic Dutch



## LovesPlants247 (Jun 13, 2016)

Hmm...I'm curious about this - but how much did it cost to have the stand made for you locally vs. making it yourself? I have considered this in the past - but never pulled the trigger because I just end up looking for professional carpenters - which I know are going to be expense. How did you find them?


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

It was about $200. I looked at glasscages, who has hard oak stands for a 60 gal cube for $185 or so and put up a wanted thread in a local fish keepers forum and someone chimed up. I paid a little extra for the magnetic doors.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

So I've got it flooded and running to stabilize the water, but I have this nice film on my water right now. What can I make to clean this water better?


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Made a quick surface skimmer. Seems to have helped...


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Been a little while, but I added some Giant Diano's to get the tank cycling. Everything seems to be going great so far. Once the funds are allocated, I'm going to dutch scape it. Still need to get a CO2 regulator and bury some osmocote in the BDBS.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

APynckel said:


> I'm going to dutch scape it


:thumbsup:


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

APynckel said:


> Been a little while, but I added some Giant Diano's to get the tank cycling.


:thumbsdow


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Nubster said:


> APynckel said:
> 
> 
> > Been a little while, but I added some Giant Diano's to get the tank cycling.
> ...


:thumbsup:


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Nubster said:


> :thumbsdow


The hell did that deserve a dislike for? I'm just cycling my 2217 with some throw away fish..



Also, purchased my GLA Gro-1 and inline diffuser on Thursday. So the CO2 situation is almost taken care of. Gotta settle on how I am going to control / get feedback on my CO2 qtys in the water column now.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Looks like you are off to a good start! I love Marineland tanks with black silicone.


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## skystrife (Feb 20, 2010)

APynckel said:


> The hell did that deserve a dislike for? I'm just cycling my 2217 with some throw away fish..


It was probably a (less than civil) recommendation to use a fishless cycle instead. I would also recommend this for the "no fish were harmed in the cycling of this tank" factor.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

skystrife said:


> It was probably a (less than civil) recommendation to use a fishless cycle instead. I would also recommend this for the "no fish were harmed in the cycling of this tank" factor.


It's not that I'm going to flush them or anything. I'll give them back to the LFS if I have to when I go to plant. 

The tank, it seems, was already cycled by the time I had put them in there. I borrowed a gallon of water from a buddy's cycled tank, and traded him some eheim media. Went to the lfs this past weekend and they checked all my water parameters. No Ammonia, no NO2, no NO3.

I also wanted something other than fishing bobbers to look at while the rest of the equipment is gotten.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

burr740 said:


> Looks like you are off to a good start! I love Marineland tanks with black silicone.


Thank you! I'm trying to take my time and get everything done right from the get go. Slowly amassing the hardware. 

Should I get a drop checker for CO2 feedback? How should I control the CO2? Set the bubble count and time it for overnight?

Very soon it will be time to order plants. Just need my shaping utensils and to make up my mind if I want any kind of hard scape objects in the tank, like a piece of drift wood. I'm just worried that I don't have enough room for it. It would help aid in separation of the plant species.

Here's my list of what I want thus far...

Foreground
Microanthenum Monte Carlo (offset front/left)

Midground
Alternanthera Reineckii Mini
Downoi
Rotala indica

Background
Ludwigia Super Red
Pogostemon Erectus
Heteranthera zosterifolia
Proserpinaca palustris (Mermaid Weed)

As for fauna, I've been recommended a pair of discus, but I also kind of want some shrimp (dream blue velvet), cories, german blue rams, and a small school of tetras.

Too many options running through my head.

Looking for feedback / suggestions / critiques to my selection as well.


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

I don't know if Discus are best for a dutch setup, since they will take away quite a lot of focus from the plants. Also they probably won't play nice with the shrimp. Not to mention it will take a little bit of dedication to make sure they grow out well etc.
Probably a large school of some sort (Neons, Harlequins, Rummynose etc.) plus the GBRs, and maybe some Cories would be a decent stock list.
Drop checkers with 4DKH water are a good reference point for CO2. Try to get the solution inside to lime green, then see how the critters and plants respond. Fine tune it based on how your livestock feels, and how your plants are growing. I would just get a solenoid regulator for CO2 and time it to match your light period, except put it on an hour before lights come on and turn it off an hour before lights come off.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Albtraum (Dec 27, 2009)

a TALL tank like this is just asking for a large branchy driftwood centerpiece


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Opare said:


> I don't know if Discus are best for a dutch setup, since they will take away quite a lot of focus from the plants. Also they probably won't play nice with the shrimp. Not to mention it will take a little bit of dedication to make sure they grow out well etc.
> Probably a large school of some sort (Neons, Harlequins, Rummynose etc.) plus the GBRs, and maybe some Cories would be a decent stock list.
> Drop checkers with 4DKH water are a good reference point for CO2. Try to get the solution inside to lime green, then see how the critters and plants respond. Fine tune it based on how your livestock feels, and how your plants are growing. I would just get a solenoid regulator for CO2 and time it to match your light period, except put it on an hour before lights come on and turn it off an hour before lights come off.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's what I was thinking about the Discus. Too large and attention grabbing. 

Any particular drop checkers you recommend? I'm going to be buying some scape maintenance tools from amazon, so might as well be from amazon too.



Albtraum said:


> a TALL tank like this is just asking for a large branchy driftwood centerpiece


If anything, I'd probably want a short piece of wood to run front and center and help divide up the foreground / midground plants, and maybe using the trunk to support some moss or something. The idea of using wood has kind of taken a back burner for now, maybe to delve into in the future. I think I'm just going to do a pure planted dutch.

If anyone would please comment on my plant selection and give me some pointers as to difficulty of raising the species with what I've outlined here in the thread, that would be fantastic. Just a reminder, this is going to be an osmocote + in the substrate and CO2 tank. Trying to keep dosing any chemicals at a minimum.

Thanks!


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

APynckel said:


> Any particular drop checkers you recommend? I'm going to be buying some scape maintenance tools from amazon, so might as well be from amazon too.


All drop checkers will work, so it is really just aesthetics that is the difference between products. I like those hook shaped ones, and I'm sure you can find some well-priced ones on Amazon. VIV should make some nice glass ones, you can also get cheap plastic ones if you don't care about looks. Remember with a drop checker you will need to make some 4DKH to go inside it.



APynckel said:


> If anyone would please comment on my plant selection and give me some pointers as to difficulty of raising the species with what I've outlined here in the thread, that would be fantastic. Just a reminder, this is going to be an osmocote + in the substrate and CO2 tank. Trying to keep dosing any chemicals at a minimum.


Well not dosing is going to limit your options a bit, and your colour on plants will probably not be the best. Not dosing whilst running CO2 is not the best idea. I would reconsider your stance. Dry fertilisers are very cheap. And it's important to remember, everything is made out of chemicals even the plants . There's not really anything specific to any plant provide sufficient light, nutrients, flow and CO2 and stuff should grow (to oversimplify it).





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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Opare said:


> Well not dosing is going to limit your options a bit, and your colours on plants will probably not be the best. Not dosing whilst running CO2 is not the best idea. I would reconsider your stance. Dry fertilisers are very cheap. And it's important to remember, everything is made out of chemicals even the plants .


Yes, I am aware. *gasp* water is a chemical too :surprise:

Just trying to keep things as simple as I can get it. I don't want to have to have an auto doser set up if I happen to go out of town for the weekend....

I'm going to be putting osmocote+ into the substrate.


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

APynckel said:


> Just trying to keep things as simple as I can get it. I don't want to have to have an auto doser set up if I happen to go out of town for the weekend....
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to be putting osmocote+ into the substrate.


You could probably just skip the dosing if you go out, dose for the days you're gone before you leave or set up a rest day on a weekend as part of your schedule. You could even avoid daily dosing with some regimes.




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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Would this work?

https://www.amazon.com/Rhinox-Glass-Drop-Checker-sufficient/dp/B005C74ZCA/

And these scape tools?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017IR6WPY


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

Yup those should work fine. That drop checker is priced pretty nicely for how it looks, may snap one up for myself.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

More hardware rolling in. GLA Gro-1 regulator, Atomic check valve, Atomic inline diffuser, and CO2 line came in from Green Leaf.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Just making sure, putting the inline diffuser on the return side of the eheim is going to be okay, right?

Also, just asking for people's opinions, how may plant segments should I expect to get out of an 18"x18" footprint? I was thinking about 9


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Added the Osmocote+ into the substrate this past Friday, 8/5/2016

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/29-substrate/1068577-how-long-before-planting-add-osmocote.html

Water tests are showing higher ammonia on day 2. Did a water change and settled things back down. Ordering the rest of the things I need for plants, and the plants this week!

What's left:
Drop Checker ( https://www.amazon.com/Rhinox-Glass-Drop-Checker-sufficient/dp/B005C74ZCA/ )
dkH solution ( http://nilocg.com/4dkh-fluid-4oz/ )
scaping tools ( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017IR6WPY )
Ferts (NA Thrive Thrive All In One Liquid Fertilizer | 500ml Bottle - NilocG Aquatics and Gh booster)

AND.... PLANTS!


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

And we're planted!










Start


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Off to a great start man! I look forward to watching it fill in.


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## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

I'm hoping to set up something similar soon in the next few months. I'll be following.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Sweet man! Thanks!


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## jlugo89 (Aug 19, 2016)

Hey! I'm new in the forum and I create my account looking for ideas and help because I'm starting a planted cube soon. For my surprise my first thread visited was this one!! wohooooo. I really like your idea, my tank is very similar, it's a Marineland 27 gallons (20''x18''x20'') I already have the tank, stand, substrate, heater and light. 

Greetings from Dallas!


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

We added some cleanup crew friends. The brown algae was starting to show rather vividly after cranking the lights back up...










5 Amano Shrimp
6 Otto Cats


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Man they love to just nom down


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Everything is staying green for the most part. No major burning or deaths. Getting some leaves falling off and floating around, but I don't see anything big happening, which means things should be ok. Already had one of my Amano shrimp molt, and they're all kicking around back there in the tall plants. The Oto cats are GOING TO TOWN. I haven't had to touch any algae on the glass since they've been in there. Worth every red cent.

Danio's are just being themselves, chasing each other around and being scared of me as I put my hand into the tank. They really can't put 2 and 2 together and figure out where the food is coming from.

I THINK? I am already seeing new leaves on the ludwigia sp red?


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## IntotheWRX (May 13, 2016)

Godspeed to your growth. will look sexy once it fills in.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Had some pretty spectacular pearling yesterday after I got home from work.

However, I had to snip off 2 of the corkscrew val leaves, they went transparent. It doesn't seem very happy.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Tank has been very cloudy the past few days. I've stopped dosing NilocG Thrive, because I thought I was seeing the leaves on my Luwigia sp red curling, and I didn't want to overdose PO4 like what Burr has been seeing. Ran some tests. Everything is zero except nitrates, which are a little high at 20ppm, especially considering I did a 10 gallon water change yesterday. I took off the eheim 2217 and rinsed things out (not the media, just the filters) and put it all back together, and things have been cloudy since then. I am getting good pearling, the drop checker is showing a nice green with 4 dkH, and the plants look relatively healthy, at least nothing is burning or going translucent. Some leaves being shed, but seeing new growth keeping up, so it's nothing worrisome. What the heck?

What are people using for their tap water dechlorinator?


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

APynckel said:


> Tank has been very cloudy the past few days. I've stopped dosing NilocG Thrive, because I thought I was seeing the leaves on my Luwigia sp red curling, and I didn't want to overdose PO4 like what Burr has been seeing. Ran some tests. Everything is zero except nitrates, which are a little high at 20ppm, especially considering I did a 10 gallon water change yesterday. I took off the eheim 2217 and rinsed things out (not the media, just the filters) and put it all back together, and things have been cloudy since then. I am getting good pearling, the drop checker is showing a nice green with 4 dkH, and the plants look relatively healthy, at least nothing is burning or going translucent. Some leaves being shed, but seeing new growth keeping up, so it's nothing worrisome. What the heck?
> 
> What are people using for their tap water dechlorinator?


I use seachem safe, similar to prime in powder form.


Are those scratches on glass?


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

vvDO said:


> I use seachem safe, similar to prime in powder form.
> 
> 
> Are those scratches on glass?


Thank you. I've read some stuff about purigen helping as well.

Yes :-\ I was stupid trying to clean some hard water stains off of it. I just live with them as a reminder.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

APynckel said:


> Thank you. I've read some stuff about purigen helping as well.
> 
> Yes :-\ I was stupid trying to clean some hard water stains off of it. I just live with them as a reminder.


Did some sand get on a sponge? I'm thinking of using BDBS as well, just wondering if it had anything to do with it?

Nice growth BTW!


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

vvDO said:


> Did some sand get on a sponge? I'm thinking of using BDBS as well, just wondering if it had anything to do with it?
> 
> Nice growth BTW!


No, had nothing to do with the substrate. I've been very careful with the stuff. I was dumb and used a scotch brite pad trying to remove the hard water stain on the glass.

And thank you, plants are doing fairly well.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Dont think you need to worry about too much P with Thrive, pretty sure it doesnt have a whole lot to begin with.

Of course with brand new O+ you could be seeing a spike. From what Ive seen using O+ and sand, there seems to be an initial surge for 2-3 weeks (depending how much is used), where it adds nutrients to the water column. Then it stops, or at least drastically reduces. I do believe it lasts in the substrate a lot longer than most people think, a good 5-6 months I'd say.

But that is purely anecdotal and based on a best guess from personal experience using it. So tifwiw. Point is I would not stop the Thrive. The last thing you want is to stall the plants by limiting nutrients at this point..or any point really. 

What's all that brown stuff, diatoms? It's common in new set-ups, should run it's course in a month or three. Or you can get a few Otos. They love the stuff and will be a good long term clean-up crew for certain types of algae, mainly gda.

Cloudy water is sometimes the result of an immature, or inadequate population of beneficial bacteria, aka the biological filter. Do bigger water changes for a while, 70-80%, it should eventually clear up as the tank balances out.

The good news is all the plants look nice and seem to be growing well. A few hiccups early on are to be expected. Just do good maintenance and keep things really clean, the substrate surface, the filter (careful not to kill the bio parts), religiously prune and remove any leaves that are in bad shape, etc.

I wouldnt worry too much about the L red curling. It's a fussy little plant that can pout one day and look fine the next, at least it does for me.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

It's a very fine brown hair algae. The Oto cats are going nuts on it.

I'll get back on the Thrive today, as well as do a nice big water change.

What are you using for water change tap water conditioner?


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Okay, so last night I went and purchased a PO4 tester, a small bag of purigen, and Prime for my water conditioner. Ran the PO4 tester, was a little high at 10ppm. 

Did a 50% water change, added the Purigen to the 2217 (in the bottom compartment, incoming flow), and gave the tank 3 squirts of Thrive. Going to settle down to the "low light" condition of Thrive, 3 pumps, twice a week, and a hefty water change.


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## HaeSuse (Aug 18, 2016)

APynckel said:


> Just making sure, putting the inline diffuser on the return side of the eheim is going to be okay, right?


Yeah, man. If it is NOT fine, you'll know it quickly from the sound the impeller makes from having too much gas in it. Hook it up, turn it on, get your BPS where you want it, and listen to the canister for a while. No noise = you're fine.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Sounds like a good plan.

I use Prime just because it seems to be the most bang for the buck (surprisingly)


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Left for the weekend, came back to this.

Also, must have been a small clutch of eggs on a plant, Burr, because now I have snails...


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

After a 20 gallon water change:










Side Shot:










Everything on this side of the tank is going absolutely nuts. The corkscrew is at the top of the tank now.


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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

o wow, hope you can get things in order!


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

So the cloudy water was early stages of an algae bloom, not bacterial after all. 

Fun fact: When the gw clears up the plants will be absolutely spotless. There wont be a single spec of algae anywhere, except for possibly diatoms

Also snails are good, embrace them!


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

burr740 said:


> So the cloudy water was early stages of an algae bloom, not bacterial after all.
> 
> Fun fact: When the gw clears up the plants will be absolutely spotless. There wont be a single spec of algae anywhere, except for possibly diatoms
> 
> Also snails are good, embrace them!


What is gw? Do I need to do anything to help clear out the bloom?


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## AquaIce (Sep 5, 2016)

gw = green water. Keep up with the water changes, but if you want to clean gw immediately, you can run a UV sterilizer for 3-4 days which should clear it or if you want to clear it in 3 hrs, buy a vortex d-1 diatom filter or a marinleand magnum polishing filter and diatomaceous earth. For the magnum, you would get the pump running and once filled with water transfer to a decent sized pitcher. Slowly add scoops of diatamaceous earth to the water for the filter to pick up and get "caught" in the filter polisher lining. After a few minutes of prepping the filter you can transfer it back to the tank and let it run. Will clear all diatoms and algae out very quickly and leave your water clearer than you've ever seen it. -just some alternative thoughts/advice for gw


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## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

I read once you can put the cut end of a Willow tree into a tank with green water, it would suck the ammonia out, and would be clear in just a few days. I read it a couple places. Never got to try it. If you have one available, might be fun to try.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Did another big water change last night, 20 gallons. Gave the tank 3 squirts of Thrive (on a twice a week regimen now). 

Reorganized some plants, still have some more movements in mind, namely getting the corkscrew val back to the rear of tank. 

My Staurogyne 'purple' is not happy, and it's probably lighting related. It's been a low lying plant since I got it, and I doubt its getting enough PAR from my 2x Current Satellite + Pro's. Though some googling turns up with information that it's a slower grower.

Mayaca fluviatillis seems to be growing, but lots of algae growing on it, and it doesn't seem to want to stand tall, always kind of bent over. Not as "whispy" and "light" as it is/was in Burr's tank. 

The Downoi are vibrantly green and definitely taking off. How will I know once these are ready to split? How do you get cuttings from them? The Lobelia cardinalis 'small form' are definitely going nuts as well as the AR Mini.

Hygrophila pinnatifida seems to be enjoying life. I've had some leaves go translucent, but it's spreading out via root offshoots like mad. Tons of little ones near the base popping up.

Blyxa japonica is definitely establishing good roots and growing. Relocated them to the front left, next to the Lobelia cardinalis.

One of my amano shrimp is definitely full on preggers, all the oto cats are accounted for and eating every piece of algae they can find, and the giant danio's are a spaz-tastic as usual. Damned things can't seem to figure out that the giant hand is trying to help, not harm.

No pictures this time. Things are still VERY cloudy. Working the GW outbreak a day at a time. Might have to go and invest into a HOB UV sterilizer to help kill it off.


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## jlugo89 (Aug 19, 2016)

APynckel said:


> And we're planted!
> 
> 
> 
> Start


 Hey nice plants! Where you buy them online? What is the name of the plant in the left corner (front)?


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

jlugo89 said:


> Hey nice plants! Where you buy them online? What is the name of the plant in the left corner (front)?


Thank you. Please though, don't quote an entire string of pictures. It adds a whole lot of stuff that people have to load up and scroll through, and tends to clutter the thread a little. If you quote just a single image (deleting the [/img] tags for the pictures that are unnecessary will work) that will get your question across, it makes things a lot simpler. It's also good forum etiquette.

I bought a batch of plants from another member on this forum who has a nice dutch scaped high tech 75 gallon, Burr740. You'll see him pop up here in this thread from time to time, checking up and giving me advice. Great guy.

The plants in the front left (at this point, when I first planted the layout) are Downoi (Pogostemon helferi).


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Thanks man.

The downoi will start putting out baby plants from the main one. Can snip these off and replant them. I usually wait until the babies are dime size or a little better. Doesnt really matter though. If the plants are happy they should take right off.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

So most of these plants reproduce asexually through root propagation then? Just sending out new plants radially as the roots creep around?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

The downoi, stauro, h pinnatifida, AR and lobelia do that. You can either cut the babies off and replant them, or leave them for a thicker bush type look.

Stems can be topped and replanted, and if you leave the stumps they will make new side shoots. Some of the stems will get side shoots without any topping. Can just cut those off and replant them.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Did another water change today. 20 gallons per the current norm. Water clarity appears to be improving. It wasn't AS cloudy as it has been before, before I did the change. Things are beginning to clear up methinks.

Separated the 5 different plants that the corkscrew val has turned into. Damned thing is going nuts.

Hygrophila pinnatifida is making lots of offshoots in the substrate, but I think I'm going to let them grow up a bit before I snip and separate.

Everything else is growing, but doing anything major of note.


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## Kingtriton92 (Sep 8, 2016)

I love the stand!


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

OK. I think I'm going to need to start shopping for a UV sterilizer. This GW is not going away. Anyone have any recommendations considering my tank footprint / volume?


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Here we are a week later, and the water is still very very green. Water changes aren't doing anything to fix it.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

So I got a good deal on a used coralife turbo twist 6x, so that's now sitting on the "input" side going into my 2217. Probably not the best place for it, since it will kill bacteria going into the filter, but the thing should be well established by now.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Alright, so it's less than 24 hours since I installed the turbotwist, and I would almost swear there's a noticeable difference in water clarity. Holy crap!

So this was after a 20 gallon change yesterday. I have taken the giant danio's back to the store. They were nice to have for a while, but they're too big and when the tried to get down into the plants, it was too much










Here's the UV Sterilizer installed










And this morning.


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## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

I used to have one like this. It worked great.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

It is definitely doing the trick!


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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

seems like its working great!


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

And we are crystal clear again!


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## jlugo89 (Aug 19, 2016)

Looks good! 

When you planted your tank, you started dosing any fertilizer the same day or when you started?
What are you dosing?


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Yes, I've been dosing NilocG's Thrive and Gh booster.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

That didnt take long, nice! Looks like the diatoms are on the way out too.



APynckel said:


> Mayaca fluviatillis seems to be growing, but lots of algae growing on it, and it doesn't seem to want to stand tall, always kind of bent over. Not as "whispy" and "light" as it is/was in Burr's tank.


Mine looks just like that early in the day before it starts pearling. Then I think the accumulation of bubbles sorta "float" it straight up. I kinda like it better leaning in different directions. From here it looks pretty happy. The tips arent stunted or anything.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Maybe I'm not giving it enough CO2?

And yea, running a UV sterilizer meant for a 250gal saltwater tank seems to have made things right with relative haste.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Well mine are being blasted with a lot more light as well, probably has something to do with it.

Although pearling isnt necessarily an ultimate indicator of anything, this plant is known to be a voracious pearler. Does it have many bubbles by the end of the light period?

Have you measured the PH drop from CO2 between degassed water and water with the CO2 on? Drop checkers can be very misleading. Should shoot for a solid 1 point drop at minimum, preferably by the time the lights come on, at least early in the photo period. 

Or you can forget all this PH/KH nonsense and just slowly increase the CO2 until the fish show signs of discomfort. Then back it down a little til they are comfortable again. That's the best way to know for sure anyway, imo 

Once you have the CO2 set right, use the drop checker as a quick visual reference to tell you if anything changes.


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## jlugo89 (Aug 19, 2016)

Are you ok with the flow inside the tank or you could consider add a pump/wake maker?

I have a 27 Gallon Marineland cube (20"x18"x20") (I know I need to start a thread!) and the surface of the water looks very steady but I'm not really sure if adding a small pump/wavemaker would affect the flora and fauna. I have Eheim 2211 for filtration.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

jlugo89 said:


> Are you ok with the flow inside the tank or you could consider add a pump/wake maker?
> 
> I have a 27 Gallon Marineland cube (20"x18"x20") (I know I need to start a thread!) and the surface of the water looks very steady but I'm not really sure if adding a small pump/wavemaker would affect the flora and fauna. I have Eheim 2211 for filtration.


The Eheim 2217 agitates the surface very well. I aim the spray bar a bit up to ensure some oxygen transfer to help the fish. My biggest complaint is there is a relative lack of flow behind the plants in the very back, but that's kind of the nature of the thing when you have so many obstructions to flow, isn't it?


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Been wanting one of these since I decided to dutch, and I have finally gotten one added. Lagenandra meeboldii red has been added to my scape as well as 3 stems of emersed grown mermaid weed. No pictures yet, will get some tonight.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Here are the pics!




























Also, I've added 4 cherry shrimp to the fauna, just wanted something different. Thinking of adding some crystal blues as well.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Less than a week, good growth on the mermaid weed!


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## IntotheWRX (May 13, 2016)

looking good. good growth. just a matter of time till it gets crazy!


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

I have babies!!!


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## IntotheWRX (May 13, 2016)

everybodys looking healthy. good growth. yay for babies.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Some updated pictures...


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## plantsrockmysocks (Sep 21, 2016)

Nice scape! Love the downoi.


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## sevendust111 (Jul 15, 2014)

I really like this tank. I am going to be doing a 25g cube (18x18x18) soon and I had a few questions for you...

1. How are the 2 Satellite + pros working out? I was going to get 2 as well. Do you have them both set to max? How many hours a day?

2. How is the 2217 working out? I was going to go with 2215 as many have told me the 2217 would be overkill on a 25g.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

sevendust111 said:


> I really like this tank. I am going to be doing a 25g cube (18x18x18) soon and I had a few questions for you...
> 
> 1. How are the 2 Satellite + pros working out? I was going to get 2 as well. Do you have them both set to max? How many hours a day?
> 
> 2. How is the 2217 working out? I was going to go with 2215 as many have told me the 2217 would be overkill on a 25g.


The +pro's are doing well. Might not be enough light at substrate level, but they're doing okay for now. They're all 100% maxed on every color spectrum, and on from 8am to 6pm, 10 hours.

2217 also works like a charm. Always better to have too much filtration capacity than too little.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Looking good! World of difference between now and a few weeks ago.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

burr740 said:


> Looking good! World of difference between now and a few weeks ago.


Did you notice the mermaid weed? Started doing its submerged leaf pattern then went back to solid near the top. Strange.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Yes I did notice that. Only it's not reverting to emersed growth (obviously) it's just changing leaf shape - which this plant can do in a heartbeat under different conditions.

It's not a bad thing, may just be the way it's gonna look in your <current> parameters. Light, nutrients, KH, etc, all that plays a role

The spikey leaves a little ways down, did that part come from me or did it grow that way in your tank for a bit?


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

burr740 said:


> Yes I did notice that. Only it's not reverting to emersed growth (obviously) it's just changing leaf shape - which this plant can do in a heartbeat under different conditions.
> 
> It's not a bad thing, may just be the way it's gonna look in your <current> parameters. Light, nutrients, KH, etc, all that plays a role
> 
> The spikey leaves a little ways down, did that part come from me or did it grow that way in your tank for a bit?


It sent off several of those after it was in my tank.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Either a) something changed around that time to cause it to grow differently, if you can think what it was, or b) since plants can often take a week or two adapting to a new environment, maybe it cruised for a while on nutrient stores it had built up from my tanks, a different ratio of this or that, more or less GH, etc. Then changed as it acclimated to your parameters.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

burr740 said:


> Either a) something changed around that time to cause it to grow differently, if you can think what it was, or b) since plants can often take a week or two adapting to a new environment, maybe it cruised for a while on nutrient stores it had built up from my tanks, a different ratio of this or that, more or less GH, etc


I'm thinking b). I'm only doing 2x a week of 3 squirts of Thrive right now. Maybe I need to up it to 3x a week, and my lights aren't anywhere near as strong as yours. Maybe the leaf pattern broadened up to help aid in photosynthesis.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Sounds logical, light definitely plays a big role.

Also you have more overall plant mass in the tank now than when you started. So the global demand for nutrients is higher. Could be time to up the Thrive to 3x week.


And what's up with that one AR heading to the surface, lol? 

You could cut that off near the substrate, new growth should sprout from the stump. Then cut the long stem off the top leaving an inch or two, and replant the nice top.

Also you could cut those long wayward A bonsai stems and replant them to fatten up the group, tidy it up a bit


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

burr740 said:


> Sounds logical, light definitely plays a big role.
> 
> Also you have more overall plant mass in the tank now than when you started. So the global demand for nutrients is higher. Could be time to up the Thrive to 3x week.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tips. I've been a bit lazy on the pruning bit of things. Still a bit "handsoffish" and letting things grow. I have no idea why the one AR mini is heading to the clouds. Maybe he hit a sewer pipe or something?


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## sevendust111 (Jul 15, 2014)

APynckel said:


> sevendust111 said:
> 
> 
> > I really like this tank. I am going to be doing a 25g cube (18x18x18) soon and I had a few questions for you...
> ...


Really? Not enough even with 2? Do you think 2 would give me high light at 18"?


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

sevendust111 said:


> Really? Not enough even with 2? Do you think 2 would give me high light at 18"?


My tank IS 18" deep.... More like 15"-15.5" with the substrate. The japonica's are withering away, they just don't get enough PAR down there. If I were to do it over again, I'd go T5's like Burr has, but hey, gotta learn somehow.


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## sevendust111 (Jul 15, 2014)

APynckel said:


> My tank IS 18" deep.... More like 15"-15.5" with the substrate. The japonica's are withering away, they just don't get enough PAR down there. If I were to do it over again, I'd go T5's like Burr has, but hey, gotta learn somehow.


Wow... your making me rethink my build. I am going to ticked off if I drop 300 bucks only to find I need more par. I really don't want t5's though.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

sevendust111 said:


> Wow... your making me rethink my build. I am going to ticked off if I drop 300 bucks only to find I need more par. I really don't want t5's though.


The LED's in the "entry level" lighting setups just don't have the cajones to reach that far. What's wrong with T5's?


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Things got a nice trim today!


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## jlugo89 (Aug 19, 2016)

Wow! That was drastic! Still looking for your ideal scape?


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

For the most part. The way I had it before, the cardinalis and downoi were up front creating a "pocket" for the water flow coming out of the filter return. I'm trying to find the best arrangement to make sure all of my plants get good flow and light. I don't like how pathetic the blyxia's look, and the staurogyne purple has been wilting as well as the Hygrophila pinnatifida. The latter was sending off shoots like crazy for the first month or so, then it just started dying. So we're in the process of investigating.


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## IntotheWRX (May 13, 2016)

APynckel said:


> Things got a nice trim today!


wow looking great. going almost full blooded dutch


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

IntotheWRX said:


> wow looking great. going almost full blooded dutch


Thank you. What do you mean, *almost*?


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## IntotheWRX (May 13, 2016)

APynckel said:


> Thank you. What do you mean, *almost*?


i mean that the tank is fully overgrown into a lush dutch.


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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

wow since I last checked this, tank has immensely improved! nice !


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Well I tried to add 5 cardinal tetras last night, and 3 died off. I let the water acclimate and dumped a cup full of my tank water into their bag (and then let sit for another 15 mins) before transferring them. 2 went into shock right away, and the third died overnight.

Great, now I can't keep one of the easiest fish there is alive.


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

Maybe drip method next time? If they were in the bag for 2 hours + that could have also been the problem as Ammonia could have built up. If they are in for too long just acclimate temperature and dump.
Looking for a supplier with the same water parameters may also help.
From what I've read they can be a bit fragile at first so not the easiest fish there is!


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Definitely wasn't that long (2+ hours). Maybe 45-60mins.


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

Yeah maybe the parameters were just too different. Drip acclimation may be the way to go. 
I would also reccomend quarintining if you have a spare tank, especially once you start adding new fish to an existing group. Dealing with fish illness whilst trying to make sure your plants are happy can be hard.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

I always turn down CO2 and increase surface agitation before adding new fish, then over the next few days increase levels back up.


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## nel (Jan 23, 2016)

vvDO said:


> I always turn down CO2 and increase surface agitation before adding new fish, then over the next few days increase levels back up.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've learned that the hard way. I had one blue gularis separated in a smaller tank (it was too aggressive), after a month of living alone I wanted to put him back. He started swimming like crazy gasping for air. He was not used to so much CO2 in water. He is ok now, but it was really scary.


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## RyRob (May 30, 2015)

You did good with adding a cup of tank water to the bag but after about 15-20 minutes you should have dumped out a 1/2 cup of bag water and replaced it with another 1/2 cup of tank water. Repeat about 3-5 times until the bag water is ~90% tank water. About 45-60 minutes worth of time. Then add the fish to your tank as the final step. 

Unless you have an ultra sensitive species, the above should work just fine and has for me with and without co2.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

RyRob said:


> You did good with adding a cup of tank water to the bag but after about 15-20 minutes you should have dumped out a 1/2 cup of bag water and replaced it with another 1/2 cup of tank water. Repeat about 3-5 times until the bag water is ~90% tank water. About 45-60 minutes worth of time. Then add the fish to your tank as the final step.
> 
> 
> 
> Unless you have an ultra sensitive species, the above should work just fine and has for me with and without co2.




I drip acclimated a pair of kribs for over 2 hours and they still gasped for air. Only thing that helped was a quick 25% water change and that was with lowering CO2 levels prior to the drip acclimation. Next time I'm actually considering turning off CO2 completely, and reintroduce over the next 3-5 days until I get back to prior levels.


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## jlugo89 (Aug 19, 2016)

Hey APynckel, how the Nilocs G Thrive fert is working? You like it? Planning to move to other method (dry ferts, change your dosing, etc)? Are you using something else beside the Gh booster?


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Seems to be working fine.


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## jlugo89 (Aug 19, 2016)

APynckel said:


> Seems to be working fine.



Planning to move to other method (dry ferts, change your dosing, etc)? Are you using something else beside the Gh booster?



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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Nope, I am dosing nothing other than 3x squirts 3x a week of NiloCG Thrive, doing 1x a week 10gal water change, and adding 3x 1/4 tsp Gh booster after the water change. It's working very well, so I don't think I am going to change things up. 


Current tank shot from today. Stuff is growing back out as per the norm.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Ok, so I have seen a couple of these around the tank.... WTF??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSmEh1uXmNI

also, full tank shot...


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

So things aren't looking so great lately. Lots of algae growing on leaves, green spot algae on the glass (which the otos don't seem to want to touch), the mayaca fluviatilis is very pissed off, japonica doing it's standard withering away, Ammania sp bonsai is covered in algae and not growing much.

At this point, should I consider the Osmocote+ to have fizzled out? I'm still dosing Thrive and GH booster from Nilocg...

Pics


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

It's not the Osmocote. How much Thrive are you adding? And how much is supposed to be "full EI"?


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

3 squirts 3 times a week, as the directions on the bottle state. I stagger them to be every other day, with the odd one out at the end for a 10gal water change, weekly.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Arent you supposed to dose the Thrive daily?

And you need to be changing more water at each water change, not necessarily from a nutrient standpoint, it's just good for any high tech tank.

1. Get in there and prune the crap out of things. Pinch all those ratty leaves off the AR. All of them. Replant the nice tops if you have to.

That Bonsai isnt going to repair. Mow the group down to 1" stumps and let new growth come in.

Any other crappy leaves on anything, pinch em off.

2. Do a 70% water change, wait 3-4 days and do another one.

3. Dose the Thrive daily (if it's meant to be daily)

4. Do bigger water changes every week, 50-60% at least.

5. Keep everything super clean, ratty leaves, mulm laying around, filters, etc. 

6. Triple check CO2. Make sure you're getting close to a 1 point drop by the time lights come on. And soon after a solid 1-1.2 drop.


See where things are in a couple weeks.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Bottle says dose 3x per week. I'm going to water change this afternoon/evening, I'll make it a big one, prune the crap out of things, and clean the filter out as well.

Do you do substrate cleanings? How do you do it w/o sucking up all the osmocote?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Dont worry about deep vacuuming the sub. Just skim the surface to get any debris.

Follow the steps above and give it two or three weeks. If things dont improve it may be time to ditch the Thrive and switch to dry ferts. They're easy, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Well I also have shrimp that like to get siphoned up


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Just get any noticeable piles of crud, otherwise dont worry about it


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Ok. I did what I could (lots collects in the back behind the plants, which is the lowest current place in the tank). Cleaned out the filter, it was pretty gross. Trimmed back a lot of the plants and removed excess of those that I didn't need, that wound up taking care of the algae covered leaves on the AR mini, and the cardinalis.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

OK. So I did that 20 gallon change (and filter full cleaning) sunday, and we're 3 days from then and my phosphates are off the charts.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Burr, also, I just talked to Colin (Nilocg), he says it's not necessary to dose every day.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Alright, this stuff has been on my substrate for a time now, anyone know what it is?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Looks like bba? 

Vacuum it off with a 1/2" hose or something. Put your finger down in front of the hose and wave it around to scare the shrimp out of harms way.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Reduce my photo period you think? I'm already considering dropping my fert dosing down to twice a week....


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Ive never seen much correlation between bba and too much light. By itself, too much light tends to bring on the green types ime.

Plants get bba when they are unhappy. Hardscape/substrate when there's an abundance of organic waste, poor filtration, insufficient water changes, etc

That's just what Ive observed in my own tanks, ymmv

Vacuum it out and step up your maintenance/cleaning would be my suggestion. Dont stand around looking at it for two weeks, get it out of there!


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

I am also getting the hard green algae build up on the glass. I have to scrape it down with a razor blade once a week.

Well I'm not seeing it much on the plants, just the substrate. Maybe I need to pull the substrate and give it a thorough cleaning. Gonna have to figure a way to keep my shrimp alive during the process though.

Maybe the eheim 2217 isn't putting in enough water turnover?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

APynckel said:


> I am also getting the hard green algae build up on the glass. I have to scrape it down with a razor blade once a week.
> 
> Well I'm not seeing it much on the plants, just the substrate. Maybe I need to pull the substrate and give it a thorough cleaning. Gonna have to figure a way to keep my shrimp alive during the process though.
> 
> Maybe the eheim 2217 isn't putting in enough water turnover?


Just skim the surface enough to pull the top layer with bba out. There's no need to do anything drastic. 

Then look at maintenance/cleaning/filtration to prevent it coming back


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## jlugo89 (Aug 19, 2016)

Any updates on the algae problems?


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

The black algae is still there, and grew back rather quickly after I siphoned up the last batch.


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## jlugo89 (Aug 19, 2016)

APynckel said:


> The black algae is still there, and grew back rather quickly after I siphoned up the last batch.


What about your water parameters?


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Well today is the day for a change, so I'm not going to test them right now.


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## jlugo89 (Aug 19, 2016)

When you set up you pressurized CO2 system how many bps you used? Still the same? How you scheduled your timer before the lights goes on and the lights goes off?


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

CO2 comes on an hour before lights, and off 2 hours before sunset. 2-3 bubbles per second.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Current full tank shot. Did some pruning last week. Have had some die offs, some things miraculously grow back too.


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## jlugo89 (Aug 19, 2016)

APynckel said:


> Current full tank shot. Did some pruning last week. Have had some die offs, some things miraculously grow back too.


What plant is the one in front of the Downy?


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

jlugo89 said:


> What plant is the one in front of the Downy?


Hygrophila araguaia


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

THANK YOU burr740 !!!!!


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Things settled down and better clarity


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

Things are looking in the up! A tank full of plants is the best way to get back on track.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Things are taking off again!


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Sweet!


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

burr740 said:


> Sweet!


The AR Mini are still hating life, and the Ludwigia Sp Red is barely hanging on down in the front left behind the downoi.


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## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

That's great. I'm reaching a turning point with my tank as well, and I hope to be able to update soon. Now I'm too embarrassed.


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

Update from today



















AR mini still hates life. Leaves are getting holes and falling away.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

Everything else seems super happy. Try removing the lower/older leaves from AR mini.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Looking much better! 

No idea whats up with the AR, try giving it a few fresh Osmocote+ balls. Single balls, 3-4 per plant - NOT gel caps full!


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## APynckel (Jun 2, 2016)

burr740 said:


> Looking much better!
> 
> No idea whats up with the AR, try giving it a few fresh Osmocote+ balls. Single balls, 3-4 per plant - NOT gel caps full!


Course. Will do tomorrow after H2O change


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