# bba poll



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Bba is largely caused by flucuating c02 levels more than insufficient c02 levels.. so keep in mind people that have c02 generally have more of a consistency problem than not enoug. This has been my observation. I used to have almost stressed fauna for months on end with medium lighting and still got bba. Drop checker was beyond yellow it seemed.
Now with good surface agitation to keep gas exchange constant i get none. I do have to inject more to keep levels decent but they are far lower than before


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## herns (May 6, 2008)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> Bba is largely caused by flucuating c02 levels more than insufficient c02 levels..


I agree with this. Fluctuating CO2 is the key word.


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

My LFS has in in every tank with no CO2, it covers large sponge filters completely so it looks like a big black bush. But with constant water changes is a low tech or no tech tank fluctuating CO2 could also be the answer.


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## JasonG75 (Mar 1, 2011)

What if you're using Co2 and there isnt a BBA Problem?


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## Mr. Fish (Apr 24, 2012)

herns said:


> i agree with this. Fluctuating co2 is the key word.


x3!!


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## In.a.Box (Dec 8, 2011)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> Bba is largely caused by flucuating c02 levels more than insufficient c02 levels.. so keep in mind people that have c02 generally have more of a consistency problem than not enoug. This has been my observation. I used to have almost stressed fauna for months on end with medium lighting and still got bba. Drop checker was beyond yellow it seemed.
> Now with good surface agitation to keep gas exchange constant i get none. I do have to inject more to keep levels decent but they are far lower than before


is there a lab report on this?


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## Rev2eight (Jan 11, 2008)

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread in case you do come up with something conclusive. I'v left the co2 running for 24hrs for several months at one point just test this inconsistency theory and still got bba.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

In.a.Box said:


> is there a lab report on this?





Rev2eight said:


> I'll be keeping an eye on this thread in case you do come up with something conclusive. I'v left the co2 running for 24hrs for several months at one point just test this inconsistency theory and still got bba.


No lab report just experience.

Just because its on doesnt mean its consistent even 24 hours but there are many who have great success..
Light still plays a huge factor in bba. 
It is my conclusion throug lots of experience with bba, lots of toying with light levels; with low light and flucuating c02 i got bba everytime. High light with flucating c02 was horrible, rapid black algae growth while high light with low levels of c02 was slower and more controlled.

Plants prefer a consistent amount of all nutrients, c02 the most they use it to synthesize almost all of their makeup. Plants produce chemicals to prevent infections and algae from growing on them. Without constant healthy growth, they cannot do this, this is how bba is controlled based on my studies. Its why low but consistent c02 levels slowed down growth better than higher but less consisten c02.

Consistent does not mean on for 24hours. The main cause seems to be for most, c02 levels that go up all day long, thye start with a green drop checker but end the day with yellow. This means c02 is constantly going up, plants like the end result and try to prepare their metabolism to it but start the day out with less. Start the day with the same amount u turn the lights off and see how well your plants grow. Its really kind of amazing


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

I've never had a problem with BBA in a densely planted aquarium, co2 or not.


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## keithy (Jun 8, 2010)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> Consistent does not mean on for 24hours. The main cause seems to be for most, c02 levels that go up all day long, thye start with a green drop checker but end the day with yellow. This means c02 is constantly going up, plants like the end result and try to prepare their metabolism to it but start the day out with less. Start the day with the same amount u turn the lights off and see how well your plants grow. Its really kind of amazing


Blazing, 
I am also trying to understand this. By what you said above, does that mean:
1. we monitor our drop checker the 1 hr when lights are on, make sure drop checker stays (lime green). This is because the first few hour when lights are on, things starts to become unsteady, and our goal is to make sure things are steady throughout the photoperiod. and therefore, we have to make sure during the last 10 min during lights on that drop checker is still lime green. 

2. when Rev turns on his co2 24 7 he may not have achieve steady steady state from the go of his photoperiod and this leads to fluctuation in co2 level. 

Thanks for your input.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

keithy said:


> Blazing,
> I am also trying to understand this. By what you said above, does that mean:
> 1. we monitor our drop checker the 1 hr when lights are on, make sure drop checker stays (lime green). This is because the first few hour when lights are on, things starts to become unsteady, and our goal is to make sure things are steady throughout the photoperiod. and therefore, we have to make sure during the last 10 min during lights on that drop checker is still lime green.
> 
> ...


 The goal is not the last ten minutes. It is indeed the whole photoperiod! Surface agitation was once recommended to me by plantbrain, aka Tom Barr. I now see the multitude of benefits by having it, it provides a steady gas exchange of c02 and oxygen. By exchanging c02 u are preventing a buildup of c02 from happening this is how consistency is achieved. Most pressure regulators and needle valves we use are very precise for our needs so the problem does not lie there, but in the concentration of the water column. 
What u are trying to achieve if I were to put into numbers. For example beforeu turnon c02 uhave 1 ppm of c02 in the water column. C02 on. When lights come on u are striving to reach say 20 ppm. U reach that. Keep it there all day. Lights grout. C02 off and u start the process over. Plants will prepare their metabolism for that amount of c02 and will produce enzymes accordingly.
U start the day with c02 on and reach 20ppm but Blythe end of the day dur at 38ppm with a yellow drop checker, fish seem fine and plants are pearling. Ur happy! The problem is, tomorrow morning, ur plants want 38ppm not 20. And trust me 38ppm is not a lot, I've been much higher and 30 seems to be a common zone on here but it's a figurative number. Oxygen levels will determine much off how much c02 can be added. Plants and light determine how much u need. They will owever adjust to how much they are given to a certain extent much the same as an animal will adapt to available food and water supplies.

I do not measure c02 by drop checkers anymore. I've used digital equipment, and tritation kits and drop checkers at this point just let me know my c02 is still working. I base my levels off plant growth and fish respirations per minute. 
I don't want to over inject any tank, it's wasteful. Not every tank will need a lime green drop checker as reference. Some may need yellow some may need just turning from blue to green. It all depends on the plants and the amount of c02 they require for the given amont of light.




As for 24h. It usually reaches an equilibrium at some point and will go no higher. In most cases when running 24 hours the issue will become not enough c02 for the amount of light. Airstones, can be beneficial or detrimental here. They burn off c02 fast. Some run them at night to keep c02 from building up. The key there timing as to when it comes on and when it goes off. The beneficial part s added oxygen which definitely helps prevent algae and does help the bio filter as well.


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

HD, 

I too am trying to get a grasp of what you are saying.

CO2 consistancey, throughout the day. I got that much. But then you said that you dont have to run the co2 24 hours a day. Then you discribed EXACTLY what i, and i assume most folks are doing, starting the day with a nice green drop checker and by lights out its yellow ans i have great pearling.

My daily regime to a "T". And low and behold i too have BBA.

I have a decently planted 125g that running through a 20# co2 bottle every 2 months. Light and co2 are on the SAME timer. On for 8.5 hours a day. If i ran my co2 for 24 hours, i would burn through a 20# bottle in a few weeks.

solution?


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

20lb in 2 months? i think u have a leak somewhere
i need some info, what is ur method of filtration, added flow in the tank? more specific timing of lights and c02 would also help
type of light, distance in inches from susbtrate. type of diffusion method


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## sunyang730 (Jan 30, 2012)

I got BBA when i have too much light


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## keithy (Jun 8, 2010)

Chad, 
I think I had somewhat similar question that you just ask. But embeded in HD's explanation, he basically meant consistency during photoperiod, he kept his co2 consistent with lots of co2 injected and surface agitation. This makes water column gets a high concentration of co2 while surface agitation brings in o2 and gases out part of the co2 and thus prevent excessive buildup. IF balanced correctly, the co2 concentration can be consistent. Not an easy task to achieve that balance IMO. 

correct me if I am wrong. 





ChadRamsey said:


> HD,
> 
> I too am trying to get a grasp of what you are saying.
> 
> ...


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

sideview gives a good reference of surface agitation
i also run a wet/dry filter and overflow. i burn off a lot of c02 but it stays very consistent this way, drop checker turns yellow within 2 hours and stays that way all day, it doesn't build up. it just is

pardon the ugly tank, i just tore it down 3 weeks ago because of MTS.. so im regrowing right now,
my foreground is due for a huge trim, its very scraggly. i left it this way on purpose. i need deeeeeppp roots. it didnt survive the trip well due to heat

HEHE i had to add an old shot before i broke the tank down. i had a forrest. you can tell i have buttloads of light in that picture as well


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> 20lb in 2 months? i think u have a leak somewhere
> i need some info, what is ur method of filtration, added flow in the tank? more specific timing of lights and c02 would also help
> type of light, distance in inches from susbtrate. type of diffusion method


I was thinking leak too initially. I am testing it today.

125g
FX5
i have a koralia powerhead
rex reactor, inline, the return line output blowns the water into the koralia powerhead. which then sends it into the water column.
lights are SunBlazers. I HAD 3 rows, but i have unplugged the center row in the last few weeks, they are 23 inches off the surface of the substrate which is flourite over MTS, approx 3 inch layer total.

like i said, co2 and light on same timer. They come on at 1pm and go off at 9:30pm. 

I started dosing excel at lights on per the bottle instructions for my tank. 25ml.

thx


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

keithy said:


> Chad,
> I think I had somewhat similar question that you just ask. But embeded in HD's explanation, he basically meant consistency during photoperiod, he kept his co2 consistent with lots of co2 injected and surface agitation. This makes water column gets a high concentration of co2 while surface agitation brings in o2 and gases out part of the co2 and thus prevent excessive buildup. IF balanced correctly, the co2 concentration can be consistent. Not an easy task to achieve that balance IMO.
> 
> correct me if I am wrong.


hey keithy, btw i am not trying to highjack your thread, just adding to the discussion.

yeah i kind of get that. I have good, NO GREAT, suface agitation. I have an additional powerhead i could add to increase it, but i was worried about co2 loss if i did.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

i would start by having c02 come on one hour before lights, it gives plants a chance absorb c02 before light hits them. they are ready before the light comes on, they have a diurnal cycle as well.

point the spraybar more up and let it agitate the surface, let the koralia fill in dead spots. this is how i would start there, and raise the lights maybe 4-5 more inches if possible
part of ur problem is light i believe, my lights sit about 30 inches above substrate. i dont have a par meter, but i have enough light to grow jsut about any red plant.
reflectors will play a huge factor in this. sunblaze fixtures aren't bad. they are lower line tek if im not mistaken.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

keithy said:


> Chad,
> I think I had somewhat similar question that you just ask. But embeded in HD's explanation, he basically meant consistency during photoperiod, he kept his co2 consistent with lots of co2 injected and surface agitation. This makes water column gets a high concentration of co2 while surface agitation brings in o2 and gases out part of the co2 and thus prevent excessive buildup. IF balanced correctly, the co2 concentration can be consistent. Not an easy task to achieve that balance IMO.
> 
> correct me if I am wrong.


U are absolutely correct. It is a hard thing to balance.
Oxygen does play a key for all algae types. Bba less so. But having healthy efficient bacteria the reduce ammlnia quickly goes a long way to preventing algae of any kind. Another reason for surface agiatation


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

+1 on fluctuating c02 causing bba, increasing or dropping the co2 suddenly causes this, DIY co2 people should see this very often. i have noticed that flow have no impact on this algae and its not flow issue as many people think, it is a co2 issue.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

happi said:


> +1 on fluctuating c02 causing bba, increasing or dropping the co2 suddenly causes this, DIY co2 people should see this very often. i have noticed that flow have no impact on this algae and its not flow issue as many people think, it is a co2 issue.


+2. I have had BBA growing on the filter outlet. Plenty of flow there. For the poll to be really informative, I think the addition of a DIY CO2 VS Pressurized CO2 choice should be there also. At 2 separate times, I started a planted aquarium out low tech, went to DIY CO2, got BBA, then went to Pressurized before I was able to begin managing it.


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## keithy (Jun 8, 2010)

ChadRamsey said:


> hey keithy, btw i am not trying to highjack your thread, just adding to the discussion.
> 
> yeah i kind of get that. I have good, NO GREAT, suface agitation. I have an additional powerhead i could add to increase it, but i was worried about co2 loss if i did.


As long as the discussion is a positive one, it's all good


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## syzygy9 (Aug 9, 2010)

I am currently experiencing a major BBA outbreak on my low-tech/low light set-up (no CO2, light EI dosing with Excel, 50% water change every 2 weeks). Nothing has changed for me except that a few weeks ago I removed a large JavaFern and in the process stirred up some muck.

At first the BBA was just on the top of a really tall rock feature and I figured that it was due to higher light level at that location. Then I noticed it on the tops of the sponges on my filter inlets and I made the same assesment, but now I am seeing it all over my substrate. It isn't just randomly placed though...it is specifically growing on my snail shells. I have assasins so my substrate is littered with old shells. It is spreading to the surrounding Flourite as well now, but there is no doubt that the shells are affected first.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

syzygy9 said:


> I am currently experiencing a major BBA outbreak on my low-tech/low light set-up (no CO2, light EI dosing with Excel, 50% water change every 2 weeks). Nothing has changed for me except that a few weeks ago I removed a large JavaFern and in the process stirred up some muck.
> 
> At first the BBA was just on the top of a really tall rock feature and I figured that it was due to higher light level at that location. Then I noticed it on the tops of the sponges on my filter inlets and I made the same assesment, but now I am seeing it all over my substrate. It isn't just randomly placed though...it is specifically growing on my snail shells. I have assasins so my substrate is littered with old shells. It is spreading to the surrounding Flourite as well now, but there is no doubt that the shells are affected first.


Once u get it, the best weapon is removal of affected items and water changes, lots of them. U need to remove the spores. Which is next to impossible. I achieved this on my last setup by running a garden hose and a drain at the same time for 3 hours and a steady apply of dechlorinator. I worked great after removing affected leaves and scrubbing and vacuuming everything


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

syzygy9 said:


> I am currently experiencing a major BBA outbreak on my low-tech/low light set-up (no CO2, light EI dosing with Excel, 50% water change every 2 weeks). Nothing has changed for me except that a few weeks ago I removed a large JavaFern and in the process stirred up some muck.
> 
> At first the BBA was just on the top of a really tall rock feature and I figured that it was due to higher light level at that location. Then I noticed it on the tops of the sponges on my filter inlets and I made the same assesment, but now I am seeing it all over my substrate. It isn't just randomly placed though...it is specifically growing on my snail shells. I have assasins so my substrate is littered with old shells. It is spreading to the surrounding Flourite as well now, but there is no doubt that the shells are affected first.


EI dosing is not usually done in low tech aquairums. What exactly are you dosing?


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## syzygy9 (Aug 9, 2010)

Honestly, I've been thinking about completely redoing the tank anyway so maybe this just helps justify that idea. I was hoping to salvage the substrate though (and the fish/plants obviously).



HD Blazingwolf said:


> Once u get it, the best weapon is removal of affected items and water changes, lots of them. U need to remove the spores. Which is next to impossible. I achieved this on my last setup by running a garden hose and a drain at the same time for 3 hours and a steady apply of dechlorinator. I worked great after removing affected leaves and scrubbing and vacuuming everything



Maybe I should claim to be mid-tech then. 

I am dosing the standard 4:1:1 ratio of KNO3, KH2PO4, and K2SO4 where my "1" is 1/32tsp. I do this 3x per week and micro/iron at 1:1/2 ratio also 3x per week. 

My understanding (which could be wrong) is that this is the recommended amount for a 20G tank...mine is 36G thus my reference to "light" EI dosing.



livingword26 said:


> EI dosing is not usually done in low tech aquairums. What exactly are you dosing?


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

syzygy9 said:


> Maybe I should claim to be mid-tech then.
> 
> I am dosing the standard 4:1:1 ratio of KNO3, KH2PO4, and K2SO4 where my "1" is 1/32tsp. I do this 3x per week and micro/iron at 1:1/2 ratio also 3x per week.
> 
> My understanding (which could be wrong) is that this is the recommended amount for a 20G tank...mine is 36G thus my reference to "light" EI dosing.


So it looks like you are dosing about 1/2 EI, which is still a lot of ferts for a low light, non co2 injected tank. People who dose EI, generally change 50% of their water weekly. This keeps the water from having nutrient buildups. Are you testing your nitrates and phosphates? In my opinion (and I am no professional) mid tech can be the worst problem. If you are going to be middle of the road, you really have to use co2. If not, with all the fertilizers, you often become co2 limiting, and that will always cause algae. Another problem with low light, non co2 injected tanks, is that if you do regular water changes, then you have a co2 spike every time you change the water. ON a regular basis, this can cause bba all by itself. I would suggest, either be truly low tech, and study the low tech forums, or go ahead and move up to co2 injection. I know there are people who seem to be able to operate with a mixture of low and high tech, but it has always caused me problems.


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## syzygy9 (Aug 9, 2010)

That all makes sense. I guess I need to decide which way to go.



livingword26 said:


> So it looks like you are dosing about 1/2 EI, which is still a lot of ferts for a low light, non co2 injected tank. People who dose EI, generally change 50% of their water weekly. This keeps the water from having nutrient buildups. Are you testing your nitrates and phosphates? In my opinion (and I am no professional) mid tech can be the worst problem. If you are going to be middle of the road, you really have to use co2. If not, with all the fertilizers, you often become co2 limiting, and that will always cause algae. Another problem with low light, non co2 injected tanks, is that if you do regular water changes, then you have a co2 spike every time you change the water. ON a regular basis, this can cause bba all by itself. I would suggest, either be truly low tech, and study the low tech forums, or go ahead and move up to co2 injection. I know there are people who seem to be able to operate with a mixture of low and high tech, but it has always caused me problems.


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## shrimp pliskin (Mar 16, 2012)

I have BBA on two spots in my tank. The driftwood which is covered in a fur of BBA and the jungle val that is closest to the light. The rest of my plants are spotless.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

remove and clean. the longer it goes. the worse it can potentially be


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

xmas_one said:


> I've never had a problem with BBA in a densely planted aquarium, co2 or not.


Same here.

Use to when I had not enough CO2 and or too much light.
Took me 3 years to figure this out. Took Amano 10 years, I do not think I would have made it that long personally.

I dose maybe 1/10th to 1/20th EI for non CO2 tanks.

EI is not typically applicable to Non CO2 methods, I've certainly never said it was.


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## Snowflake311 (Apr 20, 2011)

The only times I get it is if I am not using co2 or my co2 levels are way off and changing too much. Balance is everything.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I get it even with stable CO2. Right now, it's showing up in my 75g even though the CO2 is kept very stable day and night through the use of a pH controller. The drop checker has some yellow in it, but I've raised the CO2 yet another notch.

I don't think CO2 alone is the culprit. My 75g is going through the new tank break in. My 90g is almost an exact duplicate of my 75g except that it went through the new tank break in a few months earlier. It also had BBA issues shortly after I started up that tank, but it's fine now.

I can put just about any plant in my 90g and it'll grow like nuts. Not true for my 75g. My 90g grows plants faster than my 75g. My 90g has less algae problems than my 75g. Yet, the only difference between the two tanks is the 90g is a few inches taller and a few months more mature in its setup time. Considering that the pattern I'm seeing in my 75g now is what I saw before in my 90g, I don't think the few inches of height is a major factor. I think the tank maturity is.

There is something more going on with BBA than just CO2. I don't know what it is. I know CO2 can affect BBA once you get it, but there's a greater environmental situation at play that affects whether BBA grows in a tank or not. The CO2 increase may have a secondary affect on that environment in addition to the BBA which may account for why we see BBA seem to go away once we crank up the CO2.

Not only do I get BBA in my tanks with very stable CO2 through pH controllers, but I also get BBA in my low tech tanks with no CO2 at all. As long as the tank is mature and stable, the BBA isn't a problem. If the tank is new or unstable, then the BBA roars in.


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