# New Planted Tank - Snails :-(



## blue_waters (Oct 27, 2012)

Hi All,

I've just setup my first planted aquarium (attached). 

Fishless cycle is almost complete - ammonia is dropping, nitrites (NO2) are high (expected to drop soon) - everything is looking good. I plan on a light stocking including Amano shrimp and Otocinclus to start, followed by Rasobora and Danios.

I've used ADA power sand and ADA aqua soil as my substrate, including additives, plus one bacter ball. I've placed some decorative sand in the front. ADA aqua soil has provided the ammonia for the cycle.

I bleach dipped all of my plants (time depending on hardiness) - and they're all doing fine - with good growth in the first two weeks of the cycle.

Currently using a 30W Aquasky 'copy' LED light, initially for 10 hours a day (I'd guess there's about 16 gallons of water above the substrate, so that's nearly 2W/gallon).

I'm not going to be adding CO2. PH is 7, dKH 3, dGH 8 - I'm aiming for a low-ish tech balanced aquarium (hence the plant selection).

There's a fair bit of green hair algae on my pygmy chain sword and so I've cut light back to 8 hours for the remainder of the cycle.

Everything was going fine when I discovered some tiny snails a couple of days ago! Which means something made it through my bleach dip. I only dipped the pygmy chain sword for a couple of minutes, and I suspect these are the culprits as they came from a large community tank at the LFS.

Attached is a picture of the snails I've removed. I set a couple of lettuce traps as well, but there's very few snails - only one this morning which was on the glass (none yesterday and none in the traps).

My question is - are these things going to take over? Do they look like juvenile Malaysian Trumpet Snails (MTS)?

I've read about the various snail treatments, Flubendazole/Fenbendazole, Assassin Snails, Dwarf Puffers etc.

Of these Flubendazole/Fenbendazole seems to be the most effective, although I've also read that once a tank has been treated this way, it may be very difficult to ever host Nerite or Mystery snails in the future.

Anyway - would be curious to know if I've got a snail problem or not.

Thoughts or suggestions, or any idea of the type of snail this is would be greatly appreciated.


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## jrh (Sep 9, 2007)

Thoes are not MTS. MTS have conical shells. Those look to be common pond snails, I think also referred to as bladder snails, and they breed like crazy.

Some fish eat these like snacks. I think people talk about loaches in this respect.

There's a chemical product call no-planaria which is plant, fish, shrimp safe, but will kill the pond snails, and probably continue to kill any desirable snails you want in the future.

Then, there's also our friend the assassin snail. It's a pretty black and yellow snail that hunts these suckers down. They won't eliminate them, but that can make a good dent.

There are also snail traps (take tupperware, punch some holes in the lid, put some lettuce inside, weight down and leave in overnight. in the morning, ditch your snails. lather rinse repeat)


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## blue_waters (Oct 27, 2012)

Hi jrh - thanks for the reply. 

You're right - I've just done a quick search and those are indeed pond/bladder snails.

I wonder if the active ingredient in no-planaria is flubendazole (ah - I've just read that no-planaria is made from Betal Palm Extract, or Betal Nut Extract). Thanks for the tip.

I've also seen what loaches (clown or yoyo) can do to a freshly planted aquarium, and I have no intention of putting these in the tank (clowns would be too big anyway).

At the moment I'm removing any I see - and I've got nothing in my first attempt at a lettuce trap so there are very few.

Will I get lucky?

I guess it's wait and see at this point, and maybe commit to no-planaria/flubendazole if I can live without any desirable snails in the future.

Sigh.


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## wrm130 (Jan 16, 2013)

They will also be easier to control once your Otto and Amano are introduced, limiting their food supply. If you keep things clean and balanced the snails will also be easier to control as the tank and plants mature.

Beautiful setup btw!!!

Another option would be to add some 'wanted' snails and let those outcompete. I like red ramshorns for this


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## blue_waters (Oct 27, 2012)

Hi wrm130 - thanks!

I guess I have two choices then. 1) Try to keep things in balance, and live with them, or 2) dose with no-planaria or flubendazole (flubenol).

I'm leaning towards 2) as I was not planning on putting snails in this tank.


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## mnemenoi (May 28, 2012)

Add some assassin snails and remove them once they clean out any in the tank. Even a solitary one would likely do the job and removal is easy. They breed much more slowly and require both sexes.


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## jrh (Sep 9, 2007)

Personally, I'd get a couple of assassins. They're pretty in their own right.


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## jrh (Sep 9, 2007)

Oh, once you add your amanos, then simply crush a pond snail and let it drop. For some reason shrimp and snails LOVE to eat snails. I'd crush a MTS with pliers and drop it in (and it was gross because the blood was blue), but I'd have a SWARM on it in no time.


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## blue_waters (Oct 27, 2012)

Thanks jrh, mnemenoi.

Okay - I'll see if assassins are available from the market where I'll be buying my fish and shrimp from (it's kind of an aquatic plant, fish, invert hub on the edge of Chatuchak market here in Bangkok)

I can always start with assassins I guess and see how that goes.


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## blue_waters (Oct 27, 2012)

Wow - cool pic jrh - did you take that?

And yup - I've read that amanos will eat crushed snails as well.


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## jrh (Sep 9, 2007)

Thanks! Yup, that's my pic


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## THE V (Nov 17, 2011)

I had some pond snails in my 125 with my first batch of plants. I was having some pretty severe brown algae issue and they cleaned it right up. Before long one little snail turned into a thousand. I went on a squishing campaign for a couple of months and cleaned most of them out. I still have them 3 years later but not many. The ones that survived my squishing have gone mostly nocturnal. I still find the odd one out during the day but they don't survive very long before they are fish food.


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## WANNABE_LIMNOLOGY (Dec 31, 2013)

I have these little guys..(Wasn't intentional)...they multiply very quick...and I started out (like most) trying to rid them from my tank...I grew tired of it, so I decided to just see what would happen if I left them alone in my tank...after a few massive blooms the numbers dropped significantly...and things seem to naturally balance themselves out. Also the snails seem to provided some positives(break down waste and spread nutrients etc.) and now they are just part of the mini ecosystem that formed. 

if you don't mind these snails that could be an option...but if not just keep removing them...add an assassin snail or fish that gobbles these small snails up, or use a snail remover product.

Hope it goes well for you.

W


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

All fish will eat them if you smash the buggers on the glass. They don't last long at all in this house. I believe they're partially to blame for their demise, as long as you don't over feed, it seems like these overpopulaters eventually run out of gas and fade away. Although I do suspect snail munchers in the community, have watched Apistos and Bolivians kill /eat MTS, and pond snails are like air crisps in comparison.


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## KatherineL (Nov 8, 2013)

I wouldn't go about adding chemicals to your tank. Having a bunch of small snails around is like farming protein snacks for your other livestock. 

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk


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## PlantedTankRookie (Feb 21, 2013)

I have a single male betta that eliminated a pond snail problem in a 20 gallon tank. I've since moved him to a 10 gallon tank to deal with pond snails in that tank.
I only have snail problems in tanks without fish so I'm guessing some of my fish eat the baby snails or snail eggs before they can get started. I only have tetras, rams, cory cats, and harlequin rasboras in my large tank and I haven't seen a pond snail in months.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

I just raised a batch of angelfish, and at 1 month the little pea sized guys were trying to peck the heads off ramshorns, lol. Not much help but it was funny to watch them knock snails off the glass.


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## JohnEX (Jan 28, 2004)

I cant' tell how big your tank is.... I had pond snails in a 10 gallon and all I did was continuously fish them out for a few days and was able to eliminate them all. I would try that first before adding any chemicals.


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## jmf3460 (Aug 21, 2013)

jrh said:


> Oh, once you add your amanos, then simply crush a pond snail and let it drop. For some reason shrimp and snails LOVE to eat snails. I'd crush a MTS with pliers and drop it in (and it was gross because the blood was blue), but I'd have a SWARM on it in no time.


Jrh, thank you for posting this picture. I had no idea amanos would do this. is there any other tricks of the trade that you know your amano's will eat. I have about 10 in a 46 gallon tank that compete with ottos nerites and a bn pleco for food, I already know they will eat cucumber what else will amano shrimp eat other than algae??


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## jrh (Sep 9, 2007)

Well, these are neos, but amano's are usually aggressive feeders. Spinach and zucchini are the most common veggies because it's easy to buy a bag of organic baby spinach leaves and keep it in the freezer and pull it out as you need it.

Wow, otto, nerites, and a pleco. I don't know that nerites go for veggies, but the pleco and shrimp will.


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## jmf3460 (Aug 21, 2013)

jrh said:


> Wow, otto, nerites, and a pleco. I don't know that nerites go for veggies, but the pleco and shrimp will.


its funny because the bn, ottos and amanos will eat the center of the cucumber out within like 5 hours then the nerites will come along and eat the peel. Im afraid sometimes that they don't have enough to eat. My tank lacks algae or I just don't see it, I don't know.


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## jrh (Sep 9, 2007)

You've got a lot of algae eaters.

IMHO, you can't lose with veggies, because you simply remove what they don't eat.

And if you're using prepared food and start seeing little worms, either wriggling in the water or on surfaces, then you're feeding too much. Do a water change and feed less next time.


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## blue_waters (Oct 27, 2012)

JohnEX said:


> I cant' tell how big your tank is.... I had pond snails in a 10 gallon and all I did was continuously fish them out for a few days and was able to eliminate them all. I would try that first before adding any chemicals.


Hi JohnEX - it's a standard 2ft (60cm x 30cm x 36 cm) ADA cube garden. 

And yup - I've been continuously pulling them out, and while it may be too early to say - it seems to be working.

I'm on week three of my fishless cycle - nitrites have peaked - amonia is zero. Just waiting for nitrites to drop before stocking - and hoping I don't see these little pond snails again


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## blue_waters (Oct 27, 2012)

jrh said:


> You've got a lot of algae eaters.
> 
> IMHO, you can't lose with veggies, because you simply remove what they don't eat.
> 
> And if you're using prepared food and start seeing little worms, either wriggling in the water or on surfaces, then you're feeding too much. Do a water change and feed less next time.


Hi jrh - thanks.

The clean up crew of amanos and ottos will be going in first once the tank has cycled. I've tried a planted cycle with some bacter 100 and bacter balls to speed things up a bit - although it's still been an arms raise against green algae ;-). I'll then lightly stock with some rasbora, and danios and bring over three golden barbs from my old tank.

I'll try mixing things up a bit - prepared food, along with veg. I've read blanched zucchini and cucumber work well


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## Blackheart (Jul 5, 2011)

I used to have a lot of these little guys in my 56 gallon column tank. They are not really enjoyable to have, but, they seem to help with algae. I used to have algae blooms and it seems like not soon after they'd clean it up.


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## jmf3460 (Aug 21, 2013)

Blackheart said:


> I used to have a lot of these little guys in my 56 gallon column tank. They are not really enjoyable to have, but, they seem to help with algae. I used to have algae blooms and it seems like not soon after they'd clean it up.


I have to disagree with anamos not being enjoyable to watch. I love watching mine. and it seems every time little kids are at my house they always look and try to find the "shrimpies." They are indeed a great clean up crew. I find their ability to smell food is crazy accurate. I can drop an algae wafer in the opposite side of the tank and within seconds they are all swimming/walking towards it. Fish haven't even noticed it yet. They also follow my hand around when I clean the tank waiting on any morsel of food to fly up.


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## jrh (Sep 9, 2007)

I like amanos, but IME, the females can get too big and push with respect to other shrimp. I wouldn't have said this a month ago, but I had a big beautiful amano female in my 5 gallon with cherry shrimp, and she just threw them out of the way when I put any food in the tank. She's lucky it wan't my pregnant females she manhandled. Or at least that i never saw her do it.

And you know, now that I think about it, There was a male amano molt a few weeks ago, and I haven't seen him since. 

At the time, I was having an algal bloom, so I was deliberately feeding the fish a little, and making the inverts forage, but I was surprised at how the big female amano got. It's a shame too... she was beautiful. But she got rehomed to a 75 gallon where she can't do any damage.


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## Saxtonhill (Dec 28, 2012)

I don't mind having the pond snails and haven't had a huge population problem. However, that might be because my large marble angelfish in the 30 gallon and the silver angelfish in the 60 gallon tanks, like eating them, as do the female bettas in the 20 gallon tank.


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## Mr.Bill (Aug 22, 2013)

Will asassin snails, kill and eat larger snails like a Nerite or mystery ?

Would hate to add a few asassins and have them kill off the ones I wanna keep .


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## Virto (Dec 6, 2012)

Yes they will. They'll actually team up to take down large prey, from what I've seen. They will typically leave nerites and mystery snails alone IF there are enough easy-kill snails like ramshorns available.

I can't confirm that they'll take down fish, but I have seen them sucking dry some of my pleco fry. I don't think the snails are responsible for the deaths, or else I'd see a lot more of them - there are nearly equal numbers of assassins and plecos in the same tank.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

My big complaint with snails is the all the shells that are left over after the snails die. I have a 29 gallon now that you barely can see any substrate. Literally 80% of the surface of the aquarium is covered in snail shells. 

On my new 190, I have pond snails and really want to get rid of them. I'm planning on adding a school of clown loaches but can't do that until it's finished cycling. In the meantime they are populating like crazy. I'm scooping out all that I can and feeding them to my loach but it's a losing battle. I just tried the 'snail trap' and hope it will help fend them off long enough for the cycle to finish.


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## jrh (Sep 9, 2007)

I had a MTS infestation awhile ago. Now there are a few small ones in the tank, but mostly I don't see them. But I do have tons of shells, from the juvies to the inch long adults. I kinda like the look.


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## blue_waters (Oct 27, 2012)

Sorry to hear that you're battling with pond snails as well rdmustang1. Hope you're able to bring them under control.


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

I have a large population of pond snails in my driftwood soaking bin (not a real tank) and have been removing them from my "55" gallon to the bin. I'm feeding them so they don't die as I plant to get dwarf/pea puffers in the spring which like to eat any snails. The tank that has them doesn't have many, they mostly eat dead plant matter from the anacharis since I don't over-feed (<~main cause for population spike). Assassin snail or dwarf puffer will take them out fine (in cycled tank, they're more sensitive to parameters than those pond snails). You can also tear it down, bleach (diluted not pure soak), rinse, and clean everything then put it back, will kill off eggs and wash away snails. Plants, substrate, hardscape, whole sha-bang get 'disinfected'.


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## Beer (Feb 1, 2012)

Does the bleach dip take care of the egg sacks too?

Ever since I had a huge snail population in my first planted tank (very heavily planted, so there was always plenty of food from decaying lower leaves and such) I inspect every plant and scrape the underside of leaves with the back of my thumbnail to remove egg sacks. It's pretty tedious, but it has been extremely successful in keeping snails out of my tanks. It also gives me the opportunity to remove dead leaves, and clean up the plants before they go in the tank. I've only missed three or four snails across several tanks over the past four years, which I pulled out and never had babies. I've added plants from places that were severely infected with snails and only have a zebra nerite that I intentionally added. No chemical dips necessary.

Doesn't really help you now, but for future additions it can help prevent adding to the population and prevent adding other species.

My girlfriend added a puffer to her tank and within 30 minutes the majority of the snails have gone into hiding (she tossed some plants in here without checking for snails). I am pretty sure that most of them are still there, they just stay hiding in the soil most of the day with a predator in the tank. Puffers can be aggressive towards other tank mates, especially if they are slower moving.


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## blue_waters (Oct 27, 2012)

Hi Beer,

Thanks for the reply - and the good advice. I believe the bleach dip will take care of the egg sacks too - although I'm not sure what affect it will have on more fragile plants.

I've learned a valuable first lesson, it what appears to be a common 'first tank' mistake.

After pulling out the 7 or 8 I discovered in the first week or two, I've only seen one in the past two weeks - which I promptly removed, and so I'm hoping I'm in the clear.


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## blue_waters (Oct 27, 2012)

Okay well after thinking I was in the clear - I started finding one or two pond snails every other day or so. I think 'something' in the tank was preventing them from really taking hold (and probably also what killed my Amano shrimp in my first attempt at placing these in the tank a few weeks ago). Still just a guess - but I think whatever it was that was keeping my invertebrate population down, is clearing itself from the tank, and the pond snails are starting to multiply.

I really don't want pond (or bladder) snails in the tank, and I'm not yet convinced that putting assassin snails in the tank will solve the problem (I've read that this is just a population control measure - not eradication).

At the moment I have 12 young rasboras, 5 otos, and a dwarf neon rainbow. I am going to try Amanos again in the future. The otos are amazing, and a gift to the dwarf pygmy sword (Echinodorus tenellus), cleaning nearly every leaf from end to end.

And so I've decided to drop the bomb and try dosing the tank with fenbendazole. I visited a small animal hospital nearby earlier today and received 10ml of a 10% solution (I believe it was this - Panacur 10% suspension http://www.msd-animal-health.co.uk/products_public/panacur_10__liquid/090_product_datasheet.aspx)

I dosed the tank with 1ml (100mg) at 4pm, and another 1.5 ml (250mg) at 9:30pm. The water became very cloudy after both dosages.

In 24 hours I'm going to do a 50% water change and cleanup, and then dose again (maybe 300mg in one dose).

And then a final dose in three days time.

I've read that typical dosages to treat hydra and planaria are about 100mg per 10gallon, also given over three treatments, and that higher dosages are needed to kills snails - although there's very little information available on exact dosages.

Fingers crossed the rasbora, ottos and rainbow are all fine. 

Will post an update in the coming week or two.


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## annyann (Aug 31, 2013)

I posted a thread asking for opinions on Pond snails, I really have come to like them my self, they keep my five gallon SO clean, I wish I could add them to my 25 gallon cube tank, but my Betta sorority kills them in that tank =(
Here's a link to the thread if your interested to read..
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=536130&highlight=


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## blue_waters (Oct 27, 2012)

Thanks annyann - interesting thread. Maybe I should have held off for a bit. 

Anyway - I've started treating now and so we'll see how it goes.


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## blue_waters (Oct 27, 2012)

Okay - if there was any doubt about my decision to treat the tank with Fenbendazole- it's been resolved. 

Although I've only ever seen one or two pond sails at a time in the tank, usually a day or two apart (day, or night with a flashlight), I just took apart my Eheim 2213 canister filter, and there were well over a hundred snails in there. In the mechanical filter, the sponges, and the biological filter. Most were still alive (although I'm hoping slowed down a bit) - after my initial 250mg treatment of Fenbendazole last Friday.

I've just spent the past few hours cleaning the canister, hoses, valves, the impeller assembly lily pipes - everything - and put 'everything' including the biological filter media through a bleach dip. Yes yes I know - that will kill the bacteria as well - but I'm hoping that there will be enough in the substrate of the cycled tank to repopulate bio filter media. I rinsed everything several times with tap water, and then several times again with conditioned water.

I did a 50% water change, fed the fish, and then at lights out put another 300mg Fenbendazole in the water (3ml of a 10% Fenbendazole solution).

I'll treat a 3rd and final time either on Wednesday or maybe Friday with another 300mg.

For those you who feel that pond (or bladder) snails are a good indication of overfeeding - well, I'm not experienced enough to say, but this is a new tank, stocked lightly about 2 weeks ago, and overfeeding is definitely NOT the issue.

Will post results in a few weeks.


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## Imaginary1226 (Jul 27, 2010)

I somehow got these from somewhere in my 10 and 5 gallon tanks. I noticed if there isn't enough food for them they start to eat my anubias. I found chunks out of them and went on a snail hunt. I moved most of them to my 5 gallon betta tank, I don't have very many but I would prefer none.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Wow, can't believe you went through all that over harmless snails, you may have caused yourself lots of trouble but I think you know that and are on a mission, why I can not imagine. Good luck balancing the tank all over again, don't be surprised if you find a dreaded pond snail climbing out of your nuclear apocalypse.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

FYI, since this is your first tank, they need to balance themselves, weird crap happens in the beginning, diatoms, snails, fungus, you name it. That's mother nature's pawns doing their part to bring the tank to life and "balance" it. When the aquarist interferes with this they just prolong it and possibly cause more problems, so try not to take the first advice you get online over something that freaks you out. Unless of course the sole purpose of this tank is to make a contest photo, an aquascaper's intentions are not always that of an aquarist.


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## Rbp917 (Dec 9, 2012)

I have the same problem, I didn't know that some people dip their plants before putting them in their tank. Live and learn.


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## blue_waters (Oct 27, 2012)

Hi jaidexl - understood on all points, and I appreciate the feedback. 

I'm not the kind of person that makes snap decisions, or gets 'freaked out' easily. I've spent the last 6 weeks reading, and researching and trying to find a general consensus regarding pond snails. In the end I'd read enough to be convinced that overall they're considered pests, while possibly as much as 40% of the material I found described them (welcome or not) as now part of their 'balanced' aquarium. 

Nor am I a control freak looking for a prize winning picture perfect tank. In the end, I simply decided that I don't want these snails in my aquarium. We make choices when we build an aquarium. We don't just put it out under the rain or in a pond an allow whatever creature that decides to make it its home move in. You know as well as anyone, that we choose carefully - suitable plants and a compatible (and responsible) selection of fish or inverts.

And while this is my first heavily 'planted tank' - it's not my fist aquarium. I've had good results with inert substrate, a few anubias plants and very low light tanks that have needed very little maintenance and have been a pleasure to own.

As far as I can tell - I made two 'beginner' mistakes with this tank. I attempted a fishless but 'planted' cycle, and allowed NO3 to get quite high which meant that I've been battling (and by battling - I mean more than just a little spot algae, or light amounts of hair algae - I mean nearly losing control of the tank) - from the get go. And I wasn't as careful (despite my efforts) as I should have been to clean and carefully inspect every plant before I put it in the tank which led to my pond snail problem.

If I have to tear down and start again - I will. I have enough room in my QT tank to hold my current stocking.

It seems to me - from this initial experience with a medium-to-heavily planted tank, that a lot depends on how things start - the trajectory you find yourself on, and the challenges you face because of the decisions you make at the very beginning. And it's that trajectory that will determine whether the transition into a mature balanced aquarium is a bumpy ride, or a smooth one.

So far this has been a bumpy ride, although valuable nevertheless - as I've learned a lot, and will do better next time.

The quiet hours I've spent - sometime late a night, watching my ottos, and rasbora, as well as trimming plants and providing 'regular' care to the tank - have made it all worth while despite the challenges. I find it wonderfully relaxing, and a healthy distraction from all of life's 'other' ups and downs.


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