# Carpet plants in gravel substrate



## goldrhim (Jan 24, 2014)

Hi everyone,

When I first started my aquarium years ago, I had no idea of the world of live plants and aquascaping. So, when I first setup my tank, I had regular "gravel" substrate from my LFS. Later on, when started to put in a live plant here and there I learned about plant-specific substrate like EcoComplete, Flourite, etc.

So, I later on I had added a layer of EcoComplete on top of my gravel substrate. After some time, the EcoComplete has sort of settled below the regular gravel and more of the gravel is showing than the EcoComplete. I'm not as concerned about the "look" as I am about its functionality.

My larger or deep root plants (amazon swords, red melon swords, crypts, rotala, hygro augustfolia, java ferns) are doing great. However, it seems like none of the foreground/carpet plants that I've tried to plant are really thriving. They are not dying but they are not spreading, either. I have tried dwarf baby tears, dwarf high grass and glossostigma. The glos did die (I think the roots weren't good when I bought them). However, the baby tears and high grass have survived but they will not spread or if they are, it's so slow that I don't even notice. The DBT used to pearl for a short time but it's not pearling anymore and I have no idea why.

Bottom line: I'm wondering if the gravel is not good enough for them to spread well or if there could be something else wrong. Here are my aquarium specs:

40G breeder
Pressurized CO2 with in-line atomizer diffuser
Aquaticlife dual T5 lamp on approximately 8 hours per day (: Amazon.com: Aquatic Life Light T5 HO 2-Lamp Link Fresh Aquarium Light, 36-Inch)
Fluval 306 canister filter
Wavemaker to get rid of some dead spots in the tank where water was not flowing
Dose every other day with Flourish brand: Flourish, Potassium, Iron and Phosphates (plan on doing EI dosing with dry ferts when my supply of the Flourish runs out)
Dose Flourish Trace twice a week on the off days of the others

Could it be too low light? Not enough ferts? Bad substrate?

Any suggestions would be helpful, thanks. I'll get a picture of the tank up when I get home.

Tim


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Standard bottle-recommended flourish line of ferts is not even close to what you need to run a high tech tank. Switch to dry ferts (you'll save a lot of money this way too). Switch to dry ferts and dose EI immediately IMO.

Most foreground plants need finer substrate to sink their roots in and stay anchored. Gravel is very far from the ideal substrate.

If HC is healthy it should spread no problem. It may fail miserably to anchor its tiny roots in your substrate but it should spread regardless. HC loves CO2 more than hight light. Good CO2, medium lighting +, good ferts and HC is pretty easy. The hard part IMO is maintaining it and keeping it rooted (which is why gravel is far from ideal)

DHG takes a WHILE to spread from what I have experienced. I used to have DHG in eco complete capped over dirt and it barely grew at all. I switched to black diamond blasting sand (much finer substrate) and it did much better. Took it a good 2 months to really start taking off and now it is growing like crazy and quite dense for me. Some people get it to take off right away but many others like myself report that you have to be really patient with it... Like HC DHG also loves CO2. Medium + light and CO2 and ferts will allow it to do fine. I am also a believer that DHG needs a finer substrate to really sink its roots into. Again, gravel is not gonna do much for you. Try pulling out a little tuft of DHG and see what it's doing under there. If it isn't even attempting to send out runners then you have a problem. Unlike HC and glosso the DHG will send runners UNDER the substrate. HC and glosso spread ABOVE the substrate and send tiny roots down to anchor itself.

I have never owned glosso but most people say it is easier than HC or DHG. I heard it loves high light more than the others and that is what gets it to send deeper roots and spread. Again, I have never owned glosso so am not positive.

Also, post some pics of the plants in question. Sometimes people plant these all wrong and they never get going. You should be separating each into very small bunches and planting in a grid-type pattern.

I would guess that your CO2 and ferts could be the issue here. 2x T5HO over a shallower tank like a 40B should be enough light to at least make something happen. Due to the fact that your HC isn't doing anything I would take a look at how much CO2 you are putting into the tank. Like I said before as long as you have decent CO2 HC should spread no problem.

You may be making the classic mistake of turning a 'fish tank' into a 'plants tank with fish'. You may need to consider replacing your substrate for best results. Seems like you are 90% on the right track with everything though. Just probably going to be difficult having foreground plants with gravel.


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## goldrhim (Jan 24, 2014)

Great, thanks for the information, klibs!

I will switch to the dry ferts as soon as I can. I hear a lot of people get them from Green Leaf Aquariums and use the combo pack that they offer. Do you mind me asking what you use?

I'll get pictures up later tonight. I can tell you in advance that I have them in three "clumps" that I know are larger than they should be. However, I can't really separate them well and keep them in the substrate, they end up floating if I don't keep them in clumps. Maybe once I get the finer substrate I can spread it out more.

Regarding the substrate, I think I may try to dig up some of my existing substrate in the foreground and put down some Flourite or something. I can keep the gravel substrate in the mid/background since all of the other plants in that area are doing great.

You are 100% right, I went from having a "fish tank" to trying to gradually (due to funds and time) moving to a high tech planted tank. It's been a tough road and I don't want to start from scratch by replacing everything. However, replacing just the foreground sounds feasible.

Thanks again!


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

According to Hoppy's chart for the T5HO fixtures you have aprx 80 PAR in there at the
sub. Actually too much. Not too much for thriving plants and a full load of them, but for a troubled tank a bit high. The EI ferts suggested might cure this. Would in the setting/w the thriving plants. A single piece of fiberglass window screen would result in about 50 PAR which works for me, but without injected CO2. So I believe it is lower than you want to go/w this. Consider raising the light fixture 3".
Eco is lighter than most subs and I have it in one tank and DHG didn't make it in that tank. The tank/w Fluorite has it also and it's doing fine in there but does have more of all related needs filled except for the injected CO2 item. That's the one/w the 50 PAR BTW. And if I can grow carpet in 50 PAR without CO2 then anyone can grow some kind of it in a tank/w CO2 and 50 PAR. Does grow a lot slower without the CO2.
I should like to make a suggestion if you intend to pursue carpet plants.
There is a company called substratesource as spelled by them in the google directory.
They sell various kinds of sub material of course. But one is fine graded volcanic rock.
This is known to have high CEC value. It is very porous in nature so it will give the tiny root plenty to grab onto. You might consider replacing the top 3/4"-1" of the sub in that aria where you intend the carpet to grow/w it.
NB0120 - Volcano Black Substrate
But the main thing is that I whole heartedly co-sign Klibs on going dry/EI asap.

Bump: I use this person. I have bought from GLA successfully but just prefer the one I gave a link to. Were I you I'd buy the third package deal including the iron.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/153-sale-trade/936578-custom-fertilizer-mixing|dry-ferts|liquid-ferts|cholla-wood|ials|hc|ug|others.html


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...697-dry-dosing-nutrient-solution-recipes.html
Note: Empty fluorish 500ml bottles are great for using for solutions if you want to try doing that. I love it. Need gram scale for that. Cheap on the bay.


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## THE V (Nov 17, 2011)

I actually ran a test of carpeting plants and substrates a while back in three 10 gallons. I used DHG, Pigmy chain swords, and dwarf sag. For substrates I did miracle grow organic in each. I capped them with fluorite, eco-complete, and builders sand.

Builders sand was number one, eco-complete came in second, and everything's suffered and died in the fluorite. 

The fine roots did best in the finer substrate. 

In my 125g I used sand capped with gravel. Even the vals couldn't spread very well which as great. The swords loved it but the crypts where hemmed in by it


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## goldrhim (Jan 24, 2014)

Sorry it took me so long to upload the pictures. Here is my tank (needs to be trimmed this weekend).

I switched to the dry ferts using the PPS-Pro method about 2 weeks ago. All of my other plants seem to be really booming while the HC really isn't going anywhere that I can tell. Granted, when I first planted them about 3 months ago, they were each about the size of a quarter. As you can see, they're bigger but not significantly bigger (pumping lots of CO2, dry ferts and high light...).

So... can it only be my substrate to blame?


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## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

goldrhim said:


> Sorry it took me so long to upload the pictures. Here is my tank (needs to be trimmed this weekend).
> 
> I switched to the dry ferts using the PPS-Pro method about 2 weeks ago. All of my other plants seem to be really booming while the HC really isn't going anywhere that I can tell. Granted, when I first planted them about 3 months ago, they were each about the size of a quarter. As you can see, they're bigger but not significantly bigger (pumping lots of CO2, dry ferts and high light...).
> 
> So... can it only be my substrate to blame?


Nah, substrate is not the biggest thing in a planted tank, i know people just use sand with root tabs in some cases. PPS-PRO is pretty good, i use it right now, and i am getting very good plant growth, i have the exact same problem, my carpets wont spread, i have glosso in my tank (never again!) and some plants actually spread, while others in the exact same area are growing upwards. I think you just need to give it time, time is the best thing for a planted tank. If you dont notice good growth in a month, then it may be your gravel.


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