# 75g Planted v2.0-From Inception to Completion



## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Hey folks, first off let me say thank you to everyone here that was a big help the first time I went through all this. 

For a bit of a backstory I started with a 29g unplanted tank probably over 10 years ago and eventually got a 75g and attempted a high tech planted tank. I did have good growth and some general success, and thought at its best the tank was really quite nice, though certainly not on the level of some of the works of art seen here. After a few years algae became a rather regular issue and constant problems with the CO2 system became quite an annoyance. So when it came time for a rather unusual move (even though we were going from an "apartment" to our first home we were moving to a MUCH smaller space) I made the decision to sell off everything related to the fish and tanks. 

We've been at the new home for over two years now and the itch to start something up again has crept in. My original thought was to simplify and have a tank for Cichlids, which of course would have never worked with the plants or smaller tank previously. But over time it felt as if that was giving up in a way on what I knew could be pretty awesome. So using the lessons learned from the first time around I'm now looking into starting up a new planted tank. 

This will be a slow follow for all involved, but I really hope to take any feedback into consideration as this comes together. So far all I've done is put out some offers for a tank and stand on Facebook marketplace and began researching again some other decisions. Here is were some ideas or suggestions would be helpful. This will be a slow journal to follow for awhile, but I hope it makes for a great tank. 

1. Substrate - When investigating Cichlids pool filter sand seemed to be really preferred and it seems plants can grow with root tabs but results seemed to be mixed. Last time I used SafeTSorb which was great except it was a massive pain to clean initially and would always cause a lot of fogginess whenever maintenance was done. Which would you use? Something else completely? 

2. Lighting - Last time I started with a pair of the Home Depot diamond plated fixtures, and eventually got a BuildMyLED light which was raised above the tank. This time the front runner is this guy: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016P96UA8/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=APGLUTFSIU1LH&psc=1 - Lots of success stories with that here and highly rated despite the low cost. I like that it is nice I can just likely sit it on the tank without any issues. And if it's not quite enough I am hopeful in looking through the lighting section here that I can get another or some other complimentary light if tougher plants don't grow. I would like baby tears or some sort of bottom crawler in the new tank. 

3. Filter - Had a Fluval 406 I believe, and ran some HOB units as well. I would really like to simplify things and run a single filtration system this time. I also remember the Fluval hoses being non-standard and a bit of a PITA when I built a PVC diffuser. So ideally I'm looking for something that is powerful enough to handle a 75 gallon planted on its own (even if a powerhead or two is required for extra circulation) and that can hook into a PVC diffuser. If Fluval is the best I'm not opposed to returning as I did like that unit and cleaning was reasonably easy. 

4. CO2 - This will probably be the biggest change. Last time I went on ebay or amazon, bought everything separately and built everything myself. Aside form the inline diffuser this time I think I'll get something like this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07F7P8TL3/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=A25ZUE2FXZW6GT&psc=1 - and hell, if something goes wrong, just get a new one. 

5. Ferts - After some trial and error I ended up getting dry ferts from a user here and mixing them in bottles for easy liquid solution distribution. That was definitely the best at a reasonable price (as opposed to constant Seachem refills) and is certainly the route I'd go again unless there has been some massive development on this front you guys want to tell me about.

6. Specific fish/plants - This is the fun part, no idea, we'll get to that later.

So here is my timeline and vision for things. I'd like to acquire the tank and stand soon as I really can't do anything else without those, but both items are usually cheap and easy 2nd hand and I don't foresee that taking long. Through the remainder of December and January the goal is to get the planted aspects of things running. Add the substrate, lighting, filter, and begin some walks for rocks and wood for a hardscape. No plans on anything specific, so can be creative and think of designs while this is happening. Build my diffuser during this time as well, get a CO2 tank 2nd hand again and buy the other stuff needed as well, bring it all together and start buying plants from folks here. I have vacation Feb. 4-9, so if the plants are setup and doing well at that point I will come back and begin the fishless cycle. That take some time, meaning this is when the fish planning will begin. At this point folks here should have an idea of what the tank will look like as hardscape will be done and plants will be at least partially grown, so hopefully that can inspire some fish choices. I plan to buy my fish from WetSpotTropicalFish again and have them shipped in as they were fantastic last time. 

As for my personal preferences I loved having a Koi Angelfish as a centerpiece last time, so that's certainly one thing to consider. A bristlenose pleco almost seems like a must, and while I had many barbs between the two tanks I never did get any Odessa barbs so they'll certainly be a front runner as well. The only fish that I'll probably have no matter what is a school of Dwarf Chain Loaches. They are so small they don't make much of a hit against the tank capacity and are very cool and unusual fish to have. So unless I get my heart set on tank mates that would harm them they are all but locked in. But all that is far off, for now help with the early stages is appreciated, and hopefully soon there will be pictures of a tank that marks the true beginnings of everything.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

1. Black diamond blasting sand seem to be pretty cost effective substrate. 
2. That is a pretty decent light. A second light might be a good option to give a better distribution of light power.
3. I am currently running an AquaTOP CF500 filter on my overstocked 75g tank. The SunSun version of similar size is also a good choice. FYI, I am running a different tray filling arrangement than what is supplied.
4. My biggest complaint on the noted CO2 regulator would be the needle valve (likely not very consistent). On the other hand, there are many on here running their regulator needle valve wide open and controlling the CO2 flow using a Dwyer flow meter - ask @Greggz.
5. Most of us are dosing dry ferts for Macros and many of us are running some form of custom Micro mix. Large thread on the custom micro mix in the Fert section.
6. Rainbow fish are always a good choice :wink2: but then again, I am a bit biased there.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Well, positive development. Getting a tank and stand today for $120, and the stand color matches the room it's going in well. 

And also something I forgot to note, the one good thing about where we moved, for this at least, is that we don't have a basement. So basically anywhere I put the tank on the first floor it's sitting on a giant slab of concrete, so never any worries about the structural strength underneath.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Immortal1 said:


> 1. Black diamond blasting sand seem to be pretty cost effective substrate.
> 2. That is a pretty decent light. A second light might be a good option to give a better distribution of light power.
> 3. I am currently running an AquaTOP CF500 filter on my overstocked 75g tank. The SunSun version of similar size is also a good choice. FYI, I am running a different tray filling arrangement than what is supplied.
> 4. My biggest complaint on the noted CO2 regulator would be the needle valve (likely not very consistent). On the other hand, there are many on here running their regulator needle valve wide open and controlling the CO2 flow using a Dwyer flow meter - ask @Greggz.
> ...


1. Interesting, seems like it is similar to the SafeTSorb but with less rinsing required. Probably a bit more work than the pool sand but also appears nicer looking. And I'm already prepared to use root tabs if needed. I also have a Tractor Supply nearby so I may very well go this route. 

2. Cool, I figured it would be easy to get a second one. In an additional hiccup the new tank has a permanent piece of glass running across the middle of the tank, perhaps a foot wide total. That will cut down on light in so getting two will almost certainly happen at some point for good distribution. 

3. Will look into that, and yeah, I always used a custom media config. 

4. Running out to get some foam for between tank and stand shortly, but will look into that meter when I return.

5. Another large thread, can't wait lol.

6. Will keep them in mind!


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Today's work:





































Got the stand in, reinforced it a little bit, took out some bowing in the bottom thin plywood and added a shelf to one side. Got it in place and then made and put the foam layer down, and finally put the tank on top after the girlfriend added some black backing to the back and one side. Next on the agenda is getting the remaining debris out and cleaning the inside.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Interesting - see what you mean about the middle brace. Curious what brand tank that is - different than most that I see.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Immortal1 said:


> Interesting - see what you mean about the middle brace. Curious what brand tank that is - different than most that I see.


Certainly different than my old one, was just told it was very old.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Rush3737 said:


> Certainly different than my old one, was just told it was very old.



Likely is very old. On the other hand, there are enough "newer" tanks that leak after a year or 2. Think I would rather have an old tank that has met the test of time.
There is a LFS here that has several old tanks with 1/2" thick glass - been in service for more than 20 years!


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Yeah, this is certainly thicker than the old tank, should hopefully hold up with no issues.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Just some thoughts based on my experience:

1- I do really like the BDBS. Clean, easy, and inexpensive. It is also very nice for moving plants around often; I do not really ever create a large mess!

2- As for lighting, I run the Beasmwork DHL 6500k 1W (you are linked to the .5W one), along with the DA FSPEC and I really enjoy them. THe DHL puts out a softer, calmer color, and the FSPEC makes things pop a bit more (IMO). Had them ~ a year now and so far no issues and seems to be good value. Running together I estimated ~100 PAR at substrate on my 55 gallon (never measured thought...), however they absolutely put a lot of light together, both for the plants and to the eye. In the past (and I am sure again the the future) I have run JUST the DHL 1W and had great growth. Just make sure you research Beamsworks really well because there are so many different models out there!

3- I am running two SunSun filters (a 303B and a 304B). I have had minor annoyances in the past, but mainly user error with them. They do have built in UV which is nice for any green water issues you may encounter, however the long UV tube can make opening the filters a bit annoying but not the end of the world by any means. There are lots of great options out there, but I do recommend getting two canisters for that size tank if you can swing it!

4- Tons of options out there. My only experience is with the Aquatek regulator. It works fine for me so far, no complaints, it does its job. Some spend multiple hundreds of dollars, others a hundred. Where I invested was a Dwyer flow meter with valve (RMA 151 SSV). I leave my needle valve wide open and use the flow meter to control the amount of gas I let into my reactor (DIY Cerges). This makes it much easier (especially on a larger tank) to know how much CO2 is going in, and if my measurement is consistent. The raw number is not as important as the relative number to your tank (20 cc/min for me it not the same as for someone else). One of my favorite investments so far!

5- I use dry dosing for Macros, and front load a weeks worth right after a water change. For micros I have invested in custom blending them based on the work @immortal mentioned earlier. Pretty simple and overall cost effective IM).

6- Loaded question- Rainbowfish ;-) haha

Good luck, and looking forward to following along.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Grobbins48 said:


> Just some thoughts based on my experience:
> 
> 1- I do really like the BDBS. Clean, easy, and inexpensive. It is also very nice for moving plants around often; I do not really ever create a large mess!
> 
> ...


1. Alright, BSDS it is. 

2. I know, almost an annoying amount of choice when there is no actual manufacturer page to consult. I've seen multiple good tanks with 2x the one I linked, so I'm leaning that way but may reconsider. 

3. I *really* want to avoid the hassle of multiple filters if possible. What about an FX4? Surely that would be more than enough if not overkill? I actually had a big SunSun filter offered to me for $40 when I bought the tank, but not being familiar with them I declined, and on Amazon at least they don't seem as highly rated as Eheim or Fluval. 

4. My reactor would be the same, and as for the RMA 151 SSV, what's the best place to buy those? 

5. I'm not at the point yet but will look more into ferts soon. One thing I liked about my prior system is I'd have one time making up my bottles of mixed ferts and then for a month or two doing them was super easy.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Rush3737 said:


> 3. I *really* want to avoid the hassle of multiple filters if possible. What about an FX4? Surely that would be more than enough if not overkill? I actually had a big SunSun filter offered to me for $40 when I bought the tank, but not being familiar with them I declined, and on Amazon at least they don't seem as highly rated as Eheim or Fluval.


Multiple filters do have some advantages. Biggest one being if something fails and you need to get parts, you are not in a panic. One can keep the tank going no problem while you wait. Worth it if you end up with an expensive and hard to replace fish stocking. 

Also more flow, and more ways to direct that flow. Can also use one filter to drive CO2 reactor without worrying much about reducing flow. Just a thought. 



Rush3737 said:


> 4. My reactor would be the same, and as for the RMA 151 SSV, what's the best place to buy those?


You can shop around or get it directly from Dwyer. Here is a link to their site. On the left hand side, select 2" Scale (RMA) with Stainless Steel Valve and then scroll down to select filter.

https://www.dwyer-inst.com/Product/Flow/Flowmeters/VariableArea/SeriesRM



Rush3737 said:


> 5. I'm not at the point yet but will look more into ferts soon. One thing I liked about my prior system is I'd have one time making up my bottles of mixed ferts and then for a month or two doing them was super easy.


Personally I would dry dose, at least to start. The thing is, when you get started your dosing strategy may vary quite a bit as you try to find the sweet spot for you tank. Going for a few months out of the gate with the same exact dosing is pretty optimistic. 

Also, many of us are front loading macros for the week. To me dry dosing once a week would be a lot easier than making up solutions. It's a long story but there is some reasoning behind it. Here is a link where I try to explain where I was going with it.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1020497-greggz-120g-rainbow-fish-tank-new-video-12-15-18-a-75.html#post10904241

And nice start to your journal. Looking forward to seeing how things develop for you. 

Oh, and, +1 on the Rainbows!!:wink2:


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

@Rush3737, @Greggz pretty much sums up what my answers would be to the questions you asked me! A lot of what I have learned have been from him and other forum members!


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Okay, so let's say I breakdown and go with two filters. For ease of familiarity I'd go with two identical canister filters. What two identical filters would you recommend for a 75g well planted? 

Also having built a Cerges reactor last time I'm confident in my ability to do inline heat this time. Probably going to order a Jager 250w tonight along with the special Heyco fitting for it. I'd like to get my PVC built and installing in the back before I get too far along. So my question is if I go with two filters I think I'd do the following: Two inputs, flow past heater, flow past reactor, two outputs. My theory is if one filter breaks or is down for cleaning everything is still flowing past the heater and reactor, and additionally it would flow from two points in the tank promoting flow. 

Any drawbacks to this idea? 

And I will take a greater look into ferts for sure as that step approaches, just buried under so much other info at the moment. But if I only have to do macros once a week that would seem to simplify things for sure. If I recall before I did them 3 times a week before.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Rush3737 said:


> And I will take a greater look into ferts for sure as that step approaches, just buried under so much other info at the moment. But if I only have to do macros once a week that would seem to simplify things for sure. If I recall before I did them 3 times a week before.


Front loading macros just means you'll be dosing micros everyday! >
It's never easy.

I'd recommend NilocG.com for ferts.
Dosing can be easy to start with, recipes are on this site too.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Would something like this work if I had two of them?: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JYEL2VE/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A308TXLYHTTMA5&psc=1

I believe that's an offshoot or whatever of SunSun and others I've seen mentioned. The low price, reasonable reviews, and built in UV light would offset my hesitance towards multiple filters.

Bump:


Maryland Guppy said:


> Front loading macros just means you'll be dosing micros everyday! >
> It's never easy.
> 
> I'd recommend NilocG.com for ferts.
> Dosing can be easy to start with, recipes are on this site too.


Name is familiar, did he use to sell ferts here directly? I think I bought from him.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Rush3737 said:


> Name is familiar, did he use to sell ferts here directly? I think I bought from him.


Colin is a member here.
Purchasing is from his website.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Hmm, alright, must have been someone else then, but I definitely remember that name!

As I wait for some essentials to roll in I did the dreaded thing tonight that may be the least fun part of everything... washing the substrate. Ended up grabbing 150lbs of BDBS. As it appears now it not final, just kinda leveled out for now. Gotta figure out if that's enough or if I want to grab one more bag.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Came to a semi-decision on filters. For now I'm going to pick up a SunSun 703B. Why just this one for now? I figure this will be my "inline" filter, to which I'll attach my Rex Grigg reactor and heater, since I did some reading and for the CO2 especially a slower flow is preferred. Then I'll get another, likely bigger filter (SunSun 704B, Fluval 406, or perhaps an Eheim) to be the main bio filter, and to really move water around in the tank. No rush on that now since I can get the main stuff rigged up. 

For tonight's project you can see my highly advanced schematics here:










Edit: Quick question. Designed it like this with the extra middle section because all the Rex Grigg reactor examples I've seen, and indeed my old unit all had the water coming from above, adding in the CO2 high, and then going down. That said is there a reason not to inject CO2 low in the middle section and then just have the outflow at the top?


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

That looks like a custom built heater housing- is there any reason it cannot be oriented 180° (the typical top of the heater being the bottom)? Would that then allow you to remove that middle section? I am not sure what your plan is for securing the heater and having it adjustable, water tight, etc. I have no experience with it personally, you just had me thinking and curious!

For that style reactor you really want the water flowing out the bottom, forcing bubbles of CO2 downward with water flow while they try to float back up, allowing for great chance of dissolving vs. bubbles flowing out to the tank.

Just a thought.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> Came to a semi-decision on filters. For now I'm going to pick up a SunSun 703B. Why just this one for now? I figure this will be my "inline" filter, to which I'll attach my Rex Grigg reactor and heater, since I did some reading and for the CO2 especially a slower flow is preferred. Then I'll get another, likely bigger filter (SunSun 704B, Fluval 406, or perhaps an Eheim) to be the main bio filter, and to really move water around in the tank. No rush on that now since I can get the main stuff rigged up.
> 
> Edit: Quick question. Designed it like this with the extra middle section because all the Rex Grigg reactor examples I've seen, and indeed my old unit all had the water coming from above, adding in the CO2 high, and then going down. That said is there a reason not to inject CO2 low in the middle section and then just have the outflow at the top?


I think you will want to upsize that SunSun. I'm not up on the new naming conventions, but the 703b is smaller than a 304b and that is barely enough for a 75g.

304b says for 150g tank, but I wouldn't want to run more than a 75g with one. With only one, 55g tank is better fit.

SunSun filters have large volume, but low flow. When you add the reactor, the flow will be even lower. I would start with a 304b or larger ("525gph" probably only half that or less, dont know conversion to new numbers) with plan to get another.

BTW, I don't like the "S" shape of your reactor. When priming, it will be difficult or impossible to get air out of it. Very difficult to get the pump flowing again.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Thanks guys, I'll start with Grobbins. It could theoretically be turned 180 degrees with the heater upside down and middle section eliminated, but there are problems associated with that. I'm using the following to secure the heater, which worked well in YouTube videos: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07BSWDZ33/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

While that is water tight I'd rather not test it constantly by having the water coming down on it, and would rather the heater be upwards for easy adjustment. And although the plan was to secure this to a board behind I'd still like to having it resting on the bottom of the stand, which I wouldn't be able to as easily if at all with the heater sticking out the bottom. As for the CO2 I figured there was a reason they were all configured that way, and so will make sure it stays with outflow at the bottom however I end up. 

Chris, the names are a bit confusing, but I believe the 7-series is just the newer version of the 3-series, so indeed the 04's will move more than the 03's. Am I incorrect in thinking the lower flow would be good for the CO2 diffusion aspect of things? And the second filter would certainly be bigger. I know it's been discussed to death on here, but like so many I have a problem wrapping my head around putting 10x the recommended filterage power on a tank. On the old 75 I had a Fluval 406 and a pair of good HOB filters, but both of those were 70 gallon rated at most, and that system held up really well. While I've given in and am switching over to dual canisters I can't see the equivalent of two Fluval 406's on there, just seems like power and money overkill. Though I also know there are people who have great tanks and swear by it. 

I think for now I'll run with the 703b paired with a 704b/406/equivalent bigger filter, and if the results dictate that not being enough I can sell the 703b and change in something bigger. 

As for the shape, hadn't even considered that. What do you think might work better? With that design I had considered also putting in a drain on the middle portion, with a valve above and on a portion shooting out, essentially allowing me to hook up a hose, open up that valve, and close the valve going through a bit to help force water through the hose for quick drains on water changes.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I would just use a normal Griggs reactor design with a separate heater. That might work, but getting air out of the griggs when priming the 302b is sometimes difficult. I can't imaging it being any easier with an S shape.

I have a 302b (griggs) and 304b on a 75g, and have had to add a wavemaker to get the water column movement I desire. 

Two 304bs would probably provide enough in tank flow to combat algae. You don't want any dead spots.

Keep in mind that the Sun Suns are probably half the advertized flow once loaded with media and lifting water to the tank.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Alright Chris, hopefully your still around, I modified an idea to get best of both worlds, hopefully. I'm trying to keep stuff out of the tank and inline as much as possible, so how does this look to you? My biggest concern is CO2 getting into the horizontal portion, but I don't know if that's a problem or not. 

Edit: And it should be worth noting although the drain valve is shown point down it would most likely be level or slightly up to keep some pressure off of it the 99% of the time it's not in use.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

FWIW I agree on the X03 vs X04 flow. I use my 303B for my cerges reactor on my 55, works well for me. I also have a 304B as my second filter filled with media and using the entire spray bar, with holes drilled out a bit larger.

If and when you are able the second filter is always great to have!


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Oh, there is no question that with just a 703b a second filter will be added. I'm just in no rush to purchase it and can look for a good deal or a particular filter as things get suggested. Knowing for now that I'll have the 703b to start just means I know how to build the PVC contraption as far as input and output, and I can get it installed and once the filter arrives hooked up to it.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Have you thought about running an in line heater (Hydor ETH)?? Just seems like a lot less hassle, less reduction of flow, less worries about priming, less worries about leaking, etc. 

I mean I get the DIY thing, and I do them all the time. In fact, I love a good project. But you may be complicating something that's relatively easy. 

As to reactors, sizing and flow are important. I know @burr740 has made quite a few different designs for his 75G figuring out what works best, I would reach out to him or maybe he will chime in and shed some light on your plans. He uses Sun Sun's too, so the same combination. 

Another thought is to start a thread just on the reactor. Many here have built them and I'm sure can help. Personally I use a Cerges so no help here.

And good luck with whatever you do, and am enjoying following along. 

PS I looked up your old thread, but there were no pics. Sounds like you had a nice set up, you should post a pic sometime.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Thanks Greg, I did look into those Hydor units, and just thought this method would be nicer as I was building anyway, and you're right, definitely a bias towards DIY. I used a Jager heater before and it worked great, so I kinda wanted to stick with that, and the videos I saw about inline heaters made the implementation of it look very easy. As of my latest design I feel like that wouldn't have any more issues than the Hydor might have. Still a simple flow by the heater on the way to Rex. 

What do you think about the drain idea? My thought process is have a hookup for the Python tube and the drain happens pretty much instantaneously. Was inspired by the feature on the FX4. 

And there were definitely pictures, but in the years since they were posted I switched my primary domain as far as my personal sites were concerned. Given that I always hosted images on my own sites a lot of old picture links died out. And when I went to post images this time around neither linking from my private site or straight from google photos worked, so temporarily using imageshack now. I just recovered one random picture to send to a friend the other day, so I'll post that here.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Rush3737 said:


> What do you think about the drain idea? My thought process is have a hookup for the Python tube and the drain happens pretty much instantaneously. Was inspired by the feature on the FX4.


First of all, nice pic and good looking tank. Going with the same theme this time?

And as to the drain, no clue......it does sound interesting though. If it works, will be useful to many. 

I do believe making water changes as painless as possible is a good thing, and it is well worth the time. 
@Immortal1 has his drain right into plumbing below the tank down through the floor. I keep a pump in the tank send it into plumbing in the wall down to a basement drain. So lots of different methods out there.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

With plants still a way out, let alone fish my "theme" is somewhat up in the air. That said I looked into some driftwood today and decided to pull the trigger from the same place I got some last time. Biggest difference this time is likely no rocks I've decided, and I want to lean towards a dutch setup. I figure so much of the work from excess filtration to CO2 to expensive lights is all focused on plants, so I might as well make that the tanks focus as well. Plus I love the oddly colored plants. 

As mentioned before no basement, and with no plumbing along that wall any direct method like @Immortal1 is certainly out of the question. That said I think this will be the next best thing. Hook Python up to the sink, plug other end into the quick valve, empty. Disconnect from quick valve, re-attach gravel siphon thingy, reverse flow at sink and fill.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> Oh, there is no question that with just a 703b a second filter will be added. I'm just in no rush to purchase it and can look for a good deal or a particular filter as things get suggested. Knowing for now that I'll have the 703b to start just means I know how to build the PVC contraption as far as input and output, and I can get it installed and once the filter arrives hooked up to it.


If you already have the 703b, no worries. My point was that if you know you are getting another canister, having two identical (larger) ones may allow you to have more symmetrical flow. The 302b in relation to the 304b doesn't have any real impact on currents in the tank.

I tested the flow of the 304b and it can fill a gallon jug in about 20s at tank level, so 3g/min is only 180g/hr or less than half advertized flow. Maybe if it was freshly cleaned it might go a little faster.

I estimate the 302b flows maybe half of that.

75g tank recommends 6-10x flow, or 450-750 g/hr. So I probably have <300g/hr flow in my tank and I believe my 75g is underfiltered, even though it has two canisters. Two 304bs would be closer. I have some hungry cichlids in my tank, depends on your stocking. Its not an issue of water quality as much as it is clarity. If you base it on published flow, my tank is way over filtered, and I assure you it is not.

Idk if flow/volume recomendation is mitigated by an excess of bio, but having run the SunSuns on two tanks, I feel that the lower flow results in relatively poor mechanical filtration.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Yeah, since the SunSuns seem to have some drawbacks I think I'm leaning towards something more sturdy for the main bio-filtration filter, with frontrunner currently being the Eheim 2217. Of course every time I get on here or look elsewhere things change, but that seems like a pretty tried and true work horse.

Edit: While we're on the subject of it, do you have any suggestions, given non symmetrical flow, of where you'd place the intakes and outtakes for the two filters?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> Yeah, since the SunSuns seem to have some drawbacks I think I'm leaning towards something more sturdy for the main bio-filtration filter, with frontrunner currently being the Eheim 2217. Of course every time I get on here or look elsewhere things change, but that seems like a pretty tried and true work horse.
> 
> Edit: While we're on the subject of it, do you have any suggestions, given non symmetrical flow, of where you'd place the intakes and outtakes for the two filters?


I just checked and the EHEIM 2217 is only 264gph. Based on the plumbing diameter, I doubt it would be an upgrade on the 304b from a flow perspective. I don't think any of them deliver published spec once set up, but the eheim is likely higher quality.

Look through various blogs for flow strategies. My point was that a 302b has almost no ability to visibly influence current in the tank, while the 304b does. And that you probably would need 2x 304b to have flexibility to create good flow that doesn't cause all the stems to lean one direction. Having opposite flow from identical filters could accomplish this.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Rush3737 said:


> Edit: While we're on the subject of it, do you have any suggestions, given non symmetrical flow, of where you'd place the intakes and outtakes for the two filters?


We had a pretty good discussion about flow that went on for several pages in my journal recently. Starts here at post 1644. You might find it helpful.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1020497-greggz-120g-rainbow-fish-tank-new-video-12-15-18-a-110.html


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> Edit: While we're on the subject of it, do you have any suggestions, given non symmetrical flow, of where you'd place the intakes and outtakes for the two filters?


For me personally I have a 303B that runs my reactor, and also has a prefilter cansiter for mechanical with bio media in the main canister, while my 304B only has one filter pad and bio media. A few months back I implemented a back to front flow using spray bars. I also drilled out the spray bars on the 304B to keep a high flow rate, but lower velocity of the water (plants were dancing like crazy prior to doing this). Each spray bar (even the 303 with the CO2) are pointed to the surface to keep agitation and good O2 exchange. 

As for the intakes, I run the surface skimmer on each of them, and place each canisters intake opposite from where its output is. My thought is I now have a nice front to back flow, good surface agitation, and with opposite intakes, I am moving water from one side of the tank to the other. 

I must say, overall I am satisfied with this. One other note is that each of my canisters has the ability to reduce the flow via a ball valve place inline after the canister output. For the 303 with the reactor there are two (on before and one after the reactor) and for the 304 it is a single one post the output. They are currently all wide open, but if for some reason I needed to lower the overall flow I can now achieve that with the ball valves.

I hope something here was a least a little helpful!


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> I just checked and the EHEIM 2217 is only 264gph. Based on the plumbing diameter, I doubt it would be an upgrade on the 304b from a flow perspective. I don't think any of them deliver published spec once set up, but the eheim is likely higher quality.
> 
> Look through various blogs for flow strategies. My point was that a 302b has almost no ability to visibly influence current in the tank, while the 304b does. And that you probably would need 2x 304b to have flexibility to create good flow that doesn't cause all the stems to lean one direction. Having opposite flow from identical filters could accomplish this.


My assumption was that the Eheim would stay stronger despite media, unlike the Sunsuns which seem to take the biggest hit of any brand. As for the flow, keep in mind I have a 703 ordered, which would be between a 302 and 304. So I don't think it'll have the same deadness as the 302 has. Interesting about the stem tilt, even after all the years of the last tank I never thought of that as something to be changed with water flow configs. 

-----

Grobbins, is there a picture in your thread that shows that intake/outtake configuration well? Would like to better visualize what you're saying.

-----

Greggz, I feel like I likely have another night of the following:

Step 1: I don't know what I'm doing with this.
Step 2: Ooooh, I'll do that!
Step 3: No, I'll do that!
Step 4: Wow, that's definitely the best!
Step 5: I have no f'in clue what I'm doing.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Post #210 in my journal documents a bit. 

Also here is a photo of the setup right now:


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Thanks Grobbins, that's a PERFECT shot and really helps it sink in.

So I got the essentials today for my PVC idea, but forgot an elbow and got a wrong size for the python barb. Everything is not orientated as will be, but the general idea is there with the heated portion horizontal and the reactor portion vertical. Perhaps my biggest question is if I go through with my quick drain idea. The 2" valve is by far the most expensive piece here, and I wasn't able to find the piece I wanted to kinda more quickly hook up to the Python. I wanted a piece that would screw over one of the threaded sections in its disconnect but couldn't find anything, and the Lowe's staff was less than helpful tonight. So now I'd have to put the hose over the 5/8 barb, screw down the clamp, and undo all that once the drain is done. At that point I figure I'm losing out on any time benefits gained from a quicker drain.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> My assumption was that the Eheim would stay stronger despite media, unlike the Sunsuns which seem to take the biggest hit of any brand. As for the flow, keep in mind I have a 703 ordered, which would be between a 302 and 304. So I don't think it'll have the same deadness as the 302 has. Interesting about the stem tilt, even after all the years of the last tank I never thought of that as something to be changed with water flow configs.


Honestly, getting good even flow that shows mild movement everywhere without stems leaning is difficult.

I may eventually get another 304b so I can have a symmetrical cross pattern.

I dislike using spray bar because in a 75g tank it means you lose 3-4" of potential stem height without stems being directly blown over. You can face it back against the glass but then you lose movement.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

In the last tank I never really worried about flow too much, as the only canister was a Fluval 406, which didn't have a spray bar, so it essentially meant outflow in one end and intake at the other, with a huge direct flow out and whatever it did it did. I do like the idea of the spray bars spreading out the flow more evenly, so I think I'll lean towards Grobbins general idea on that, but once the actually parts arrive and I play around a bit who knows.

Edit: Also, unless someone talks me back into the grand experiment I'll be finalizing my design at Lowe's tonight, returning the drain parts in the process. Just seems like extra cost and complication with minimal benefit now that I've gone and looked everything over.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Alright, I feel like tonight some magic happened, glad to have this in.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Today I finally pulled the trigger on a bunch of little things I've been mulling over since the start, some of which I will need in the relatively near future. 

CO2 tubing and a regulator/solenoid/counter. Still need a CO2 tank. 
Prime and a master test kit for getting the water set up. 
Went with the NilocG EI package for ferts. I did look at that thread with all the dosing stuff and frankly my head was spinning. I figure I'll start out with what I know, in the simplest way possible, and tweak from there when the 1352435 other things are done and settled.
And finally a pair of smart plugs for the lights and CO2. As I now have a smart home that I'm really happy with the thought of not using the giant manual timers and having something I can easily adjust on my phone at any time is very nice. 

Also last night the SunSun 703B arrived, and basically all I did was get it unwrapped and piece some things together. Tonight I'll cut hoses and get it essentially hooked up and ready for when water arrives.

Quick question about the reactor. If I have the water ready to go in and the filter is ready to go but I don't have a CO2 tank yet, do you think I could run the system? Just cap the CO2 intake somehow? Also, does anyone know of a source for a single reliable CO2 check valve? I don't care if it's $25, but it seems all that is easily available out there for this application is super cheap ones that I never know if they are working or not, and if not who knows what damage they are allowing to the rest of the system.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> Today I finally pulled the trigger on a bunch of little things I've been mulling over since the start, some of which I will need in the relatively near future.
> 
> CO2 tubing and a regulator/solenoid/counter. Still need a CO2 tank.
> Prime and a master test kit for getting the water set up.
> ...


Sure, you can just cap the CO2 line. I've been using an air check valve for the CO2 and it works fine, although I'm looking for an upgrade. I've heard plastic can become brittle with Co2.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Working backwards...
Believe it or not, these are some of the better check valves that I have used.
From my experience, the calcium in the water has more of an effect on the check valves like these than the CO2. With that said, I would suggest installing one of these reasonably close to your reactor (someplace you can get to). The install a second one closer to your regulator. The idea would be if you see any water in the tube between the check valves, its time to replace the one closes to the reactor.

The smart plugs sound like an excellent alternative to mechanical timers! 

As for the ferts and dosing certian amounts - it really is not as hard as it seems. Was right were you are not that long ago. After a bit of learning and practice, it's pretty much a no brainer


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Yeah, I believe I used two check valves on the prior tank just like that. At a certain point I just wonder how anyone DOESN'T have a CO2 leak on these systems. I mean, it's a gas and you go from tank to regulator, to solenoid, to meter valve, to bubble counter, to check valve with two simple barb connections, ditto, then to a barb on the reactor, and then the reactor is full of 6" round seals put together with primer and glue. 

I mentioned it earlier but problems with algae and getting the CO2 to reliably work well were two things that really knocked the wind out of my sails last time, and I'm just hoping for a smoother ride this time along. 

As for those specific check valves, I never used that particular kind, but it would be amazing if such an inexpensive option continued working well. Do any of you have experience with this (332362044394)? I'm thinking maybe go with plastic that was linked on the reactor end and then the brass one like that by the regulator.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Tonight I hooked up the SunSun and put a light in and had one fun moment of idiocy. I assume the hose hookups for the SunSun worked like the metal clamps or the python connection and you put them over the hose, connected the hose, and then slid them to the threads. I had to try that about 4 times before watching a video to see what I did wrong. With that hooked up I have to say the intake especially is very flimsy and seems hard to keep in place. I feel once things are running I'll be really fighting with it to keep it where I want. In general although the tubing is strong those intake outtake pieces are WAAAAAY cheaper than Fluval and I can't believe they hold up under pressure even though they obviously do. 

Also, for anyone who would like to do an inline heater setup similar to what I have done here I have an extra of the main special component that holds the heater. It fits into 1" threaded PVC. This forum helps a lot and I'd be happy to ship it to whoever wants it, in the US at least.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

For the sunsun tubing and intake, once you get some wate flowing through it, for me at least, they hold just fine. I do agree that with no water they do not hold well at all.

Also, for your spray bar, if you want it closer to the surface you can remove that small straight section. I try to keep mine as high as possible to give more planting space and less visual of the spray bar.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Thanks Grobbins, I'll certainly move that bar up once the water is in and I'm doing the final situating. 

After watching marketplace and craigslist for awhile I finally gave up on a CO2 tank and bought one new from Amazon, only $65 shipped so not bad. I had a place near me that I confirmed will fill instead of exchanging, so I'll get to keep my shiny new tank. 

And finally got some ceramic rings and purigen that will be the backbone of my non-mechanical filtration. 

So really there are two major items left. I seem set on two Beamsworks lights and have a thread going in lighting to get my combo, and I need to settle on my second filter.


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## nshak14 (Dec 27, 2014)

I'm a long time lurker of this site and only a recent poster as I'm about to set my tank back up but I really like your design of in line heater /reactor combo.... I'm always learning from this site


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Thanks, I'm happy with how it turned out even if I did scrap the drain idea. If I had a better knowledge of fixture and connection names I'm sure I would have made that work, but happy as is. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Looking to the future I did a lot of reading up on fish tonight. I would LOVE to have Koi Angelfish again, but basically it seems at some point any Angels will become aggressive dicks. Given that I'll likely have some costly tank mates I really don't want to risk that. That leaves me without that big centerpiece species, but I may have an idea to help. I've always wanted to have some Gouramis, but at the old place they just never worked. Going back to my small 29g tank I tried a couple different ones, and the water there must have just not been ideal for them because they never lasted more than a few months when other fish thrived. That said I love that they tend to stay near the top and I think they are great looking fish, so I think a M/F pair of Pearls should be okay. For the big bulk in the middle I'm thinking 6 Boesemani Rainbowfish, caving to all the folks suggesting them, I saw some at a LFS today and they are pretty nice, and it'll be a change from the amazing Roselines in the last tank. For the bottom I'll likely do 6 or more Otos and 6 or more Dwarf Chain Loaches. 

That brings us to:

2x Pearl Gourami
6x Rainbowfish
6+ Otos
6+ Dwarf Chain Loaches 

For the tank I think that still leaves room for a large schooling group. Keep in mind I had the DC Loaches for a long time and they never got more than an inch, they are very tiny, like the Otos. In the old tank I had Harlequin Rasboras, so I'll want to change from that, but there so many different tetras, the small peaceful barbs, and the like that it'll be hard to choose something. In any case I'm thinking a school of 10+ of something smaller.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Sorry for the triple post, but holiday weekend means extra time to look into fish stuff. I think I'm going to get myself the other SunSun filter, the 704B and close house on that end of things. 

Firstly, got the CO2 tank in today and had one of those rare amazing moments. I had assumed with the size of the SunSun I'd have to cut out from the shelf a bit to fit the tank somewhere, but it nestled in perfectly. I mean just a little bit of tension to perfectly hold in place, I could pretend I had the tank and planned it this way.










Driftwood arrives on the 29th, two big pieces and an assorted bunch of shorter pieces. So what I really need to start thinking of is plant planning. I'm really open to any plants as long as it's a good mix of reds and any other colors with the greens. 

Here is my first idea on a layout:










I may not go with the general higher to lower thing, but thought it would be nice to have a little slope in there. The front corners I will raise a bit and have a retaining wall of sorts with the small driftwood pieces. The driftwood I got is very gnarly and branchy, so I'm thinking bulk end up with the fingers reaching down into the substrate. Along the sides and back corners some tall growers like cabomba to grow through and around the driftwood. I never really had much luck with a traditional carpet plant in the last tank so that's why I want those devoted sections, and may very well do carpeting in the middle up front as well. I had an Amazon Sword as the big guy in the last tank so will want something different to be that big piece in the back.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

It looks like a good well thought out plan.

But here's the thing. I don't think I've ever seen someone follow their plan for long.

And I don't mean that in a bad way. It's just that a planted tank is constantly evolving. 

Some plants will thrive, some might fail. Most likely you will begin to have the urge to try new plants. That usually means moving things around, and that's all part of the fun. 

And nice job on the journal. It's been fun to follow along, and looking forward to seeing it planted.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

There is much less light in the corners. Carpets may not thrive there.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

@Greggz I definitely know what you mean. It'll be right from the start too, as I don't plan to individually find and buy the exact plants I want to start with. The biggest planting is going to start with a massive order from someone here who happens to be selling a bunch of stuff I like.
@ChrisX yeah, that's a good point, may go with some shorter non-carpets there, but then again if it gets raised 2-3" closer to the lights compared to the middle it might be just as good as well.


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## money88 (Apr 27, 2016)

Looking forward to seeing this wet!


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Rush3737 said:


> It'll be right from the start too, as I don't plan to individually find and buy the exact plants I want to start with. The biggest planting is going to start with a massive order from someone here who happens to be selling a bunch of stuff I like.


PM me. I'm in the middle of a huge trimming of 3 tanks with @ least 60 different species.
A lot has to go all @ once and I'm not fooling with small packages till after mid January due to Holidays and work schedule.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Should hopefully get that stage done on Wednesday as the Prime is arriving sometime today. 

I also have updated my likely stocking options as I love barbs and really did a lot of reading on any that might be good in this tank. 

Seems that both Odessas (which I wanted but never had) and Snakeskin (which were in my small 29g unplanted) that I loved would both be good for this. As a general note I will say that if you want a non-barb barb, the Snakeskin looks cool than the tiger (imo) but doesn't come with the problems. It really is a super cool fish, and given that they like to spent down time huddled in more protected areas I think they'll really dig having the plants to be near. 

So as of now I'm thinking:

6x Rainbowfish
10x Snakeskin Barb
10x Odessa Barb
6x Otos

And then possibly if tank load allows 
2x Pearl Gourami


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Happy holidays everyone! Despite being away for the better part of two days I came home to some deliveries that were made Christmas Eve and was able to enjoy some time around the tank when returning home tonight. 

First off, filled the tank and there was not water everywhere as a result! Really a huge win in and of itself, but the runner up in that victory is the water clarity. The picture will absolutely not do it justice, but with 1/3 of the washing the BDBS is 10x in this respect compared to SafeTSorb. When I filled the old 75g I'd need to go to bed to wake up to water this clear. 

The next advancement is directly related to the holiday. A year ago just prior to Christmas my grandfather passed, and then a month ago my grandmother transitioned into an independent living community, and so we gathered for one last Christmas at the house where the holiday was held starting 30 years before I was born. The rule was if you saw ANYTHING you wanted anywhere, just take it. So along with a handful of odd and end tools I just happened on a pair of knobs whose color perfectly matched the tank stand. Doors certainly didn't need knobs, I had no intention of picking any up, but hey, sometimes things fall into your lap and so I put them on. On the back of the one door I put the hanger for the pruning tools as well. 

Finally I fired up SunSun1 and it almost went perfectly after much priming. Right after I took the picture showing my amazing temporary CO2 injection plug the heater started pushing back out of the special fixture. So I quickly pushed it back in after some water spilled out and yelled for my girlfriend to "go in the toolbag and grab the biggest wrench in there". Thankfully that was accurate and so I had my proper wrench in hand and was able to crank it down a bit more. I was worried about there being too much crunch on the heater, but obviously my bigger worry should have been the water pressure.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

I like the tool holder!

I am wondering about something though. No one has mentioned anything, so perhaps this isn't an issue in freshwater, but I'm asking for my own knowledge: Is there any issue with having brass fittings that water will be constantly flowing over? Not particularly about the integrity of the fitting, but the possibility of any brass leaching into the water column. Are there any possible issues associated with that?


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Well I've seen it suggested plenty of times to use a brass check valve in the CO2 line, and although that's generally not as direct contact as this I would think if brass was a major issue people would stray away from that. Be interested to hear from someone who knows more though. 

Tonight's work wasn't done earlier. Ended up getting the CO2 setup pretty much done and tested. Still need the check valves, for which there is a funny story. I ordered three of them from the company suggested here, direct from that company, and although I understand why they haven't shipped them yet as I ordered on a Friday night or Saturday I believe, it's somewhat infuriating when I've gotten spam emails every day (have since unsubscribed) and not had my order shipped. I assume those will go out tomorrow however. I also got one of the in tank CO2 checker thingies from NilocG. 

Mounted the power strip and got the smart plugs set up, though won't do the timer schedules till closer to. Tomorrow I'll route the wires a little bit better so they are more out of the way. I also tested pH at 8.2 for now. Be interesting to see if it stays that high after media is added and things are settled. I remember in the old tank I had to use peet moss to adjust the pH, can't remember off the top of my head if it raised or lowered, but can always do again if needed. 

And before I left I started getting my Greggz sheet setup.


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## GoldenFish937 (Dec 22, 2018)

Nice!


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

@Greggz and @Immortal1

Since you guys were the two who were very high on Rainbowfish, a couple of questions. Given that I plan to get 6 (although I could be talked down to 4 or up to 8 if the tank could handle it), would you suggest going all with one type? There are a lot of different types and the Boesemani certainly seems like the frontrunner, should I stick with just them? Look at another species entirely? Mix and match? And if so which species would you recommend? 

Keep in mind I'll be ordering from here: https://www.wetspottropicalfish.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2&Itemid=116

So if it's not there it's likely not an option.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

@Rush3737 - your options are pretty open. In Gregg's tank he has all male bows with 1-3 of each type. 
In my 75g tank I have a mixture of male & female bows;
Desert Rainbow = 2M, 3F
Yellow Rainbow = 2M, 2F
New Guinea Red Rainbow = 2M, 2F
Turquoise Rainbow = 2M, 1F
Wapoga Red Laser Rainbow = 1M, 1F
Bosemoni Rainbow = 1M
Gidomen Rainbow = 1M
Marci Rainbow = 1M
Emerald Rainbow = 1M

Looking at the WetSpot fish list, I would consider any of the medium to large Melanotaenia bows


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Going past what my technical options are, are there any that you personally think are the best to have? Any favorites?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Looking at the list, I would recommend looking at the Google Images for;
Ajamaruensis Rainbow
Boesemani Rainbow
Emerald Rainbow
Red Laser Rainbow
Trifasciata Rainbow (favorite)
Yellow Rainbow


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Awesome, saw most of those already, and I'll definitely include some Trifasciata in my order, if not more of your suggestions.

My next (and I promise my last (hopefully) question on this topic), let's hold the tank load constant pre-rainbow at:

10x Snakeskin Barb
10x Odessa Barb
6x Oto
2x Gourami (although push comes to shove willing to ditch them)

With that load how many Rainbows do you think would safely fit in the 75 gallon tank?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Rush3737 said:


> @Greggz and @Immortal1
> 
> Since you guys were the two who were very high on Rainbowfish, a couple of questions.


Well we all have a little different philosophy when choosing fish, and there is no right or wrong answer.

Like @Immortal1 mentioned, personally I keep an all male tank with a good variety of species. I like watching them mature/color up, and enjoy the different colors they bring to the tank. I keep all males as I want maximum color with the space I have. Most females are very bland compared to the males. 

I will always have Melanotaenia Boesemani, M. Lacustris, and M. Trifasciata (Goyder River). Now keep in mind with Boesemani and Trifasciata's there are different varieties. With Boesemani the Lake Aytingo variety is my favorite. I've also kept Rosaria La Corte and they are beautiful as well.

With Trifasciata's depending on where they are from they can look completely different. Goyder River is the most common Tri, and also the most over bred. Pay attention to lineage when buying. Washed out ones barely resemble ones from good blood lines. 

There are also other Tri's like Wonga Creek (blue), Running Creek (yellow), and many others as well. I've kept Running Creek's for years, and recently lost my oldest one (11 years old!). If I can't find them, I'll go with M. Herbertaxelrodi to provide some yellow in the tank. 

As to tank mates, you mentioned earlier you have kept Roselines. They are a great compliment to Bows. They tend to stay in the lower third of the tank, while the Bows stay in the upper 2/3.

I only kept a group of barbs with Bows one time. Personally I didn't like the interaction with the Bows. They were nippy and it changed the Bows behavior. Tank just seemed too frantic for my taste. I'll never forget it because it was a royal PITA to catch them in a planted tank. 

So FWIW, those are my thoughts. But like I said, there is no right or wrong, and what's important is the environment you are trying to create and what is pleasing to your eye. 

Good luck and looking forward to seeing what you decide.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Needed to make a stop on my way home for distilled water and figured I'd check for any LFS I may not know about. Wouldn't you know, since the last tanks one opened up not far off the path and it's incredibly good. Lots of really healthy looking tanks, decent prices on supplies and equipment, and friendly staff. Had the tank had an issue they had 75g tanks for $115, normal price. I bring this up because they had several of the Rainbowfish species mentioned here so I got to have a nice look at some of them. Have to say the Boes and Tris still seem like my top options. 

Interesting to hear your take Greggz, but I'll likely fall with Immortal1 on my gender choices. I'll use the Odessa Barb as an example. Only one sex has the vibrant colors the species is known for, yet I would feel bad having only half the palette there. I kinda feel like having a M/F pair with the Rainbowfish will make a nicer set with the more colorful halves looking more special as a result. Now when it comes to the variety within the species that's VERY good to know. I'll research more on that so when I place my order I know exactly what to ask for, and with Wet Spot I trust them to deliver on those requests. 

And I LOVE LOVE LOVE Roselines, but am trying to duplicate as little as possible from the last 75g, even dropping my beloved Dwarf Chain Loaches most likely. That said one thing to consider is that they are technically barbs, and so keep that in mind and don't judge all barbs by one or two species. While I am trusting the internet on the Odessa Barbs being peaceful enough lets talk about Snakeskin Barbs for a moment. I'm certainly not an expert, but I had a school of the rather rare-ish fish for a long time and can say you will not find a more peaceful fish. I would trust them with an Angel no problem. And they are a slower barb too normally, just an awesome looking fish that like to form a super tight pact and either chill or move very slowly about. If you're to ever gives a non-Denison Barb another chance I really heartily recommend them.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> Needed to make a stop on my way home for distilled water and figured I'd check for any LFS I may not know about. *Wouldn't you know, since the last tanks one opened up not far off the path and it's incredibly good.* Lots of really healthy looking tanks, decent prices on supplies and equipment, and friendly staff. Had the tank had an issue they had 75g tanks for $115, normal price. I bring this up because they had several of the Rainbowfish species mentioned here so I got to have a nice look at some of them. Have to say the Boes and Tris still seem like my top options.
> 
> Interesting to hear your take Greggz, but I'll likely fall with Immortal1 on my gender choices. I'll use the Odessa Barb as an example. Only one sex has the vibrant colors the species is known for, yet I would feel bad having only half the palette there. I kinda feel like having a M/F pair with the Rainbowfish will make a nicer set with the more colorful halves looking more special as a result. Now when it comes to the variety within the species that's VERY good to know. I'll research more on that so when I place my order I know exactly what to ask for, and with Wet Spot I trust them to deliver on those requests.
> 
> And I LOVE LOVE LOVE Roselines, but am trying to duplicate as little as possible from the last 75g, even dropping my beloved Dwarf Chain Loaches most likely. That said one thing to consider is that they are technically barbs, and so keep that in mind and don't judge all barbs by one or two species. While I am trusting the internet on the Odessa Barbs being peaceful enough lets talk about Snakeskin Barbs for a moment. I'm certainly not an expert, but I had a school of the rather rare-ish fish for a long time and can say you will not find a more peaceful fish. I would trust them with an Angel no problem. And they are a slower barb too normally, just an awesome looking fish that like to form a super tight pact and either chill or move very slowly about. If you're to ever gives a non-Denison Barb another chance I really heartily recommend them.


I'm in Bethlehem, please do share!


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Sorry, I don't help Devils fans. 

I suppose I should update my location, I'm actually in Quakertown now. That said the store still isn't far if you're heading south for anything, it's called Reef to Rift in Hatfield.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> Sorry, *I don't help Devils fans*.
> 
> I suppose I should update my location, I'm actually in Quakertown now. That said the store still isn't far if you're heading south for anything, it's called Reef to Rift in Hatfield.


Well, I'm actually rooting for the Flyers at this point so the Devils have a shot at the first overall pick! Man they stink this year haha!

Yeah, that is a nice store. I'm actually going to place an order for a new reef tank with them soon. I've been trying to convince a coworker of mine to set his freshwater tank back up and will probably go there with him this weekend. I'm hoping the selection is enough to motivate him to set the tank back up.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

The selection wasn't the strongest point, but there is certainly a lot there. I just loved how organized it was. All the tanks were crystal clear with one or two well marked species in each tank.


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## reig3 (Dec 4, 2018)

Where did you get a tank for that price if you dont mind me asking.

Bob


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

The tank I had just mentioned was at a LFS in Hatfield, the one I'm actually using was a tank and stand for $120 from Facebook Marketplace. I use that for a lot of stuff, but with something like this you just gotta be mindful of what you're getting and what condition it's in.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Going to be a break after tonight's progress, but it will lead to a very exciting weekend. Have a 14 hour workday tomorrow and Friday evening is the every other week game night. That said between those two days and then Saturday expected deliveries include driftwood, check valves, one of the lights, a scraper, the other filter, a digital thermometer, filter media, and the drop checker. 

Started tonight by testing gH (200) and kH (440), and then doing the cord organizing, running them along the back or top in order to keep them out of the way. I don't know if it shows via my shelf, hanging tools, or anything else but I tend to be a bit overbearing on the organizational side of things. My philosophy is that if it is solely for the tank it should fit under the tank. That said after I mixed the NilocG ferts tonight and realized I'd use them everyday and I had some more scrap wood... well...


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Rush3737 said:


> Started tonight by testing gH (200) and kH (440), and then doing the cord organizing, running them along the back or top in order to keep them out of the way. I don't know if it shows via my shelf, hanging tools, or anything else but I tend to be a bit overbearing on the organizational side of things. My philosophy is that if it is solely for the tank it should fit under the tank. That said after I mixed the NilocG ferts tonight and realized I'd use them everyday and I had some more scrap wood... well...


I love it!

There should be a whole thread just for what's inside the stand. I see you already hung the tools, but don't forget the paper towel holder!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Greggz said:


> I love it!
> 
> *There should be a whole thread just for what's inside the stand.* I see you already hung the tools, but don't forget the paper towel holder!


I 100% support this idea.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

I had no intention of putting a paper towel holder in there.

Had. 

Also it might be worth finding a tub to fit my two filters.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Put an email into Wet Spot to check on some fish and got the following back about the Boesemani: "we rarely have Boesemani Rainbows that are not just the typical form that does not have a location point attached to it."

At the LFS I do not think they specified either. With that said I'm wondering if I should look online for another place to get them (any recommendations welcomed), just take my chances with a generic mix, or switch to a different more universal Rainbowfish in their place so I know exactly what I'm getting.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Rush3737 said:


> Put an email into Wet Spot to check on some fish and got the following back about the Boesemani: "we rarely have Boesemani Rainbows that are not just the typical form that does not have a location point attached to it."
> 
> At the LFS I do not think they specified either. With that said I'm wondering if I should look online for another place to get them (any recommendations welcomed), just take my chances with a generic mix, or switch to a different more universal Rainbowfish in their place so I know exactly what I'm getting.


You might try Eric Bodrock at [email protected].

I'm pretty sure he is still keeping a breeding colony of Lake Aytingo Boesemani. Also has other species of Rainbows too. Plus is that he is in PA. Worth checking into.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Looked over the site, all fish sales go through Aquabid and all he has up there now are books. Website has a Rainbowfish section but no Boesemani listed. And as I figured, he's in the part of PA that's 5 hours away. Still, I'll send him an email tomorrow on the off chance he has them.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Rush3737 said:


> Looked over the site, all fish sales go through Aquabid and all he has up there now are books. Website has a Rainbowfish section but no Boesemani listed. And as I figured, he's in the part of PA that's 5 hours away. Still, I'll send him an email tomorrow on the off chance he has them.


Not many breeders post much this time of the year. And they only post when they have ones ready for sale. That's the tricky part with breeders, getting the right fish at the right time.

I would definitely would reach out to him. I'll PM you his personal email as well.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Got out a little early today and have made the most of what time I have before heading out tonight. 

-One light has arrived and is installed.
-SunSun 703B media in, ceramics and purigen.
-SunSun 704B installed, media in, bio balls, ceramics, and purigen. 
-Thermometer installed.
-Inline heater test begun, just plugged it in and has the tank at 73 overnight. Turned it up a bit to make sure it's working and that the thermometer is accurate and not just repeating the ambient temp of 70 degrees. 
-CO2 drop checker installed. Check valves installed. Don't have time to test levels tonight so open up the system and do tomorrow. 
-Likely stuff I'm forgetting as I run out the door, and I realize I still need to clean the outside of the glass.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

It's all coming together!

-Started CO2 an hour ago, will be able to check it in an hour and adjust and do at least one more check today and several tomorrow to get my level set. Can do my pH drop check at that point.
-Temperature is North of 77, so heater is working fine and I'll be tuning it back down to 76 at my starting temp. 
-Driftwood said to arrive today, but tracking doesn't back that up, final light arrives Tuesday, and all those delays will be fine because...

The big news, plants ship on Jan. 2. I might have to rename the thread the 75g Maryland Guppy Honorary Tank because he is going to be taking it from barren to filled in one shipment. Such a huge variety of plants is going to really help in getting this off to a great start and I can't wait to plant it.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Nice! Maryland Guppy does have a lot of nice plants! I have several from him.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Rush3737 said:


> It's all coming together!
> 
> I might have to rename the thread the 75g Maryland Guppy Honorary Tank because he is going to be taking it from barren to filled in one shipment. Such a huge variety of plants is going to really help in getting this off to a great start and I can't wait to plant it.


NO renaming thread please. :|

Well I am trimming away this eve.
All three tanks are getting just about everything disturbed.
Trash can is filled with the bottoms of so many plants.
I've been pulling everything and just keeping the tops, long overdue.

I'm using eggnog again to ensure I toss enough to the trash. >

Had to take a break, now back to therapy. >


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Maryland Guppy said:


> I'm using eggnog again to ensure I toss enough to the trash.


Boy that sounds dangerous. 

I have never trimmed the tank after a couple of adult beverages. 

Have visions in my head of a very bad haircut that seemed like a good idea at the time. 

You are forging a new frontier!:wink2:


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

It's important to use holiday spirit in your work! That said, if I recieve a box of dog treats and kitty litter I'll know you got a tad too festive.

And no rename, but if one of the Rainbowfish ends up answering to MG I can't help that! 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Rush3737 said:


> It's important to use holiday spirit in your work! That said, if I recieve a box of dog treats and kitty litter I'll know you got a tad too festive.
> 
> And no rename, but if one of the Rainbowfish ends up answering to MG I can't help that!


Boes belong to @Greggz, I just do a recall every once in a while! >



Greggz said:


> Have visions in my head of a very bad haircut that seemed like a good idea at the time. :wink2:


My first haircut in 30+ years was in September 2018.
Been called "Hippy" for decades.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Having some difficulties with the CO2 levels. Last night between 10:00pm and 1:00am I cranked up the CO2 flow to a pretty insane pace, kinda a solid bubble stream and finally got the drop checker to start turning green at the end. Woke up this morning after a night of CO2 being off and the drop checker was still green. Thinking I may have a little too much solution in the CO2 checker but not sure if that's what would cause this. In either case I dialed back the CO2 today to a more reasonable flow and am going to let it run all day. If it stays green and doesn't turn yellow I think I'll at least have a good starting point. 

On the fish front I sat down with the girlfriend and tabs open to every single Rainbow variety I can get from Wet Spot to come up with an order of preference list, for which I also took suggestions here into account. Pairs will be as follows:

1. Boesemani
2. Trifasciata
3. Red Laser
4. Neon Dwarf
5. Yellow 
6. Kamaka

Of course the first three pairs are locks, and with the fourth being a Dwarf I think we can pull that off. Question then becomes if I risk overstocking by going for the fifth or sixth pair.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

A solid stream of bubbles is normal for a 75G tank. It's uncountable, that's why many are now using flow meters. Measuring cc/min of flow is a better solution.

I wouldn't try to calibrate CO2 with a drop checker. It's a lagging indicator, and could be as much as 4 or 5 hours behind. 

Most likely you got it to green, stopped watching, then it went to yellow hours later. When you checked this morning, it was green, again a reading from hours earlier. 

Most reliable way is to get a pH probe with calibration fluid. When the pH drops from CO2 injection, that is an immediate reading. You first need to get your degassed reading. A glass of water with a bubbler in it overnight works well. 

As to Bows, they are a thin fish in comparison to many, and they will be small for a long time. For reference, I have 20 Bows in my 120G, plus 4 Roselines and 4 Clown Loaches. Well stocked for sure, but doable.

And the Kamaka, Red Laser, and neon dwarf are only a little over 3" full grown.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Funny you should talk about the delay, the card that came with the drop checker said wait two hours, but it certainly does seem that is generous. That's why today I'm keeping one constant stream for 8 hours and I will see what it's at near the end of that. I also happened to take a pH reading prior to that post, and was at 8.2 before CO2 and 7.4 after, for a .8 drop. 

As for the fish, that tempts me to go for it, but I just don't want to have a tank that's unhealthy in a few years because I got too aggressive. I am also factoring in the possibility that I have to make a small addition at some point for one reason or another. One thing I saw somewhere that you would be a great expert on @Greggz, would you say the Red Laser and Neon Dwarf would be a bit similar and I would be better off getting one of the others as opposed to both of those?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Rush3737 said:


> One thing I saw somewhere that you would be a great expert on @Greggz, would you say the Red Laser and Neon Dwarf would be a bit similar and I would be better off getting one of the others as opposed to both of those?


Yes, they are very similar.

Personally I would not buy Neon Dwarf's. They are by far the weakest over bred breed in the hobby. 

Most people buy something like 6, and a year later have 2 left. They just stop eating and wither away. Very well known in the hobby for many, many years.

The Red Laser is very similar in shape, size, and color. It's a newer addition to the hobby, so bloodlines are relatively new and they are just healthier in general.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

With most tests done and fish selection mostly complete (likely swap Red Laser in for one of the other two) I've updated the sheet pretty near completion. One thing I'm still unsure of is my micro/macro levels. The NilocG jugs have the levels on them when dosed, and I assumed that was the target levels at the end of the week, or just some general average once the EI cycle is established, so I took all the numbers, divided them by 3 and let the sheet re-multiply by 3 to get the totals.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

Rush3737 said:


> Having some difficulties with the CO2 levels. Last night between 10:00pm and 1:00am I cranked up the CO2 flow to a pretty insane pace, kinda a solid bubble stream and finally got the drop checker to start turning green at the end. Woke up this morning after a night of CO2 being off and the drop checker was still green. Thinking I may have a little too much solution in the CO2 checker but not sure if that's what would cause this. In either case I dialed back the CO2 today to a more reasonable flow and am going to let it run all day. If it stays green and doesn't turn yellow I think I'll at least have a good starting point.
> 
> On the fish front I sat down with the girlfriend and tabs open to every single Rainbow variety I can get from Wet Spot to come up with an order of preference list, for which I also took suggestions here into account. Pairs will be as follows:
> 
> ...


I wouldn't overthink the CO2. You really will have to crank it for a larger tank. Remember two things: 1. It's cheap. 2. It's independent of O2. I really wish I would've known the second one for the last few years. I have a lot of surface agitation, plus a sump. Between the two, my CO2 is to the point where my drop checker is quite literally yellow the entire lighting period. If you have enough oxygen in the water, there is a much larger room for error then you would think. My tank is heavily stocked too, and the fish don't notice the CO2 at all.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Well the all day test went well, so hopefully the CO2 is steady now. And I have that 151 part bookmarked, so if I do end up deciding it's needed I'll grab it. I actually have a question about CO2 given that last post though. In my last tank the outflow for the canister was well below the water surface, and the two HOB filters did the surface agitation. On this tank I have as suggested both canister spray bars angled towards the surface. Do you lose any CO2 because of that? Or is it that if the reactor does its job properly then the CO2 is mixed well enough that you don't lose anything shooting the water essentially into the air? 

Also, I've yet again re-thought some fishes as I will do until the day I buy them (though I do feel I'm very close to settled). I'm thinking of dropping the Odessa Barbs, being the larger of the two barbs, and the ones that have the only chance of causing any issues, and replacing them with 6 Burmese Border Loaches. I feel like this would add diversity to the tank, with Rainbows, Barbs, Loaches, Gouramis, and Otos all being quite different, would help in the event of snails, and gives me a loach pattern and behavior similar to my Dwarf Chain Loaches at a much more reasonable price. The DCL are tiny and I'd want a school of 10, which would cost $130 as opposed to 6 BBL which would cost $36. 

Tank wise the next few days are plotted out. The final two deliveries got sorted and are on their way to today (driftwood and light), and I'll get to those tomorrow after I take out about a half a bucket of substrate, if not a little more. The more I look at the tank the more it just looks like too much BDBS in there. So before I put in the driftwood I'm going to take some out, scoop by scoop. That being said the first pictures of 2019 should be with the rather simplistic hardscape done, with the initial planted pictures to follow later in the week. 

With such solid progress I also figured I'd start the fishless cycle yesterday as I know that'll take a long while with two new filters, I'm using the Fritz ammonium chloride powder, used the recommended dose and got right to 4ppm.

Edit: For food for this group I'm thinking a combo of the following:
-New Life Spectrum 1mm Pellets
-Omega One 2mm Pellets
-Omega One Veggie Round Wafers
-Omega One Freeze Dried Brine Shrimp
-San Francisco Bay Freeze Dried Blood Worms


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

Rush3737 said:


> Well the all day test went well, so hopefully the CO2 is steady now. And I have that 151 part bookmarked, so if I do end up deciding it's needed I'll grab it. I actually have a question about CO2 given that last post though. In my last tank the outflow for the canister was well below the water surface, and the two HOB filters did the surface agitation. On this tank I have as suggested both canister spray bars angled towards the surface. Do you lose any CO2 because of that? Or is it that if the reactor does its job properly then the CO2 is mixed well enough that you don't lose anything shooting the water essentially into the air?
> 
> Also, I've yet again re-thought some fishes as I will do until the day I buy them (though I do feel I'm very close to settled). I'm thinking of dropping the Odessa Barbs, being the larger of the two barbs, and the ones that have the only chance of causing any issues, and replacing them with 6 Burmese Border Loaches. I feel like this would add diversity to the tank, with Rainbows, Barbs, Loaches, Gouramis, and Otos all being quite different, would help in the event of snails, and gives me a loach pattern and behavior similar to my Dwarf Chain Loaches at a much more reasonable price. The DCL are tiny and I'd want a school of 10, which would cost $130 as opposed to 6 BBL which would cost $36.
> 
> ...


I am sure I lose quite a bit of CO2, but its easily remedied by simply cranking it higher. The slight loss of CO2 is worth the high O2 levels. With the large amounts of oxygen in the water, its easy to just crank up the CO2 to compensate for the loss, and in turn allow for higher levels of CO2 overall than if surface agitation was minimized.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Rush3737 said:


> Well the all day test went well, so hopefully the CO2 is steady now. And I have that 151 part bookmarked, so if I do end up deciding it's needed I'll grab it. I actually have a question about CO2 given that last post though. In my last tank the outflow for the canister was well below the water surface, and the two HOB filters did the surface agitation. On this tank I have as suggested both canister spray bars angled towards the surface. Do you lose any CO2 because of that? Or is it that if the reactor does its job properly then the CO2 is mixed well enough that you don't lose anything shooting the water essentially into the air?
> 
> Also, I've yet again re-thought some fishes as I will do until the day I buy them (though I do feel I'm very close to settled). I'm thinking of dropping the Odessa Barbs, being the larger of the two barbs, and the ones that have the only chance of causing any issues, and replacing them with 6 Burmese Border Loaches. I feel like this would add diversity to the tank, with Rainbows, Barbs, Loaches, Gouramis, and Otos all being quite different, would help in the event of snails, and gives me a loach pattern and behavior similar to my Dwarf Chain Loaches at a much more reasonable price. The DCL are tiny and I'd want a school of 10, which would cost $130 as opposed to 6 BBL which would cost $36.
> 
> ...



Will give a shot at some of your questions.
1. with regards to the spray bars, pointed towards the surface is more or less correct. "Shooting the water essentially into the air" - not really needed. What you are looking for is a nice ripple on the surface of the water. This site https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/gas_exchange.html has a very good explanation regarding pushing co2 to a "safe" limit. The video part way down the page gives a really good example of what the surface "should" look like (about the 6:40min point). Everyones tank is a bit different but this gives a good starting point. 



Now with regard to off gassing co2 - yes, this method does use more co2. But if you really comprehend what he is getting at, it makes good sense. 



2. As for the fish - very personal choice there so I will only say you ar on the road to a very nice looking tank :grin2:


3. As for the fishless cycle - I have done that many times. Actually did a summers worth of cycles with various bio media. Starting at "zero" you it will probably take around 3 weeks to complete. As funny as it may sound, during my experiment I had a 10 gallon tank with only a small sponge filter in it. After a bit of a build up I was able to pour in 75-80ppm ammonia and within 24 hours it was all gone - nitrites as well! Now mind you, the nitrates were so high that I had to do a 100% water change to do it again, but it was possible. Will have to dig thru your thread to see what bio media you are using. Also, with regards to 1 filter or 2, it really wont make any difference in how long it takes to "cycle" the tank.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Thanks guys, I'm still in the process of setting things up today, and I saw that bit of the video and have bookmarked that page to read once the holiday dies down. One thing I thought of, is there any problem with putting the CO2 spray bar a little straighter out while angling the non-CO2 spray bar a little more sharply, thus getting better air mix from that one and saving some CO2 with the other? 

As for bio media, for simplicity it's basically just pads, tons of ceramics, and a few bio balls. While we're on the subject of the filters, a question for the SunSun users. My big one, the 704B is having variable power, is that normal? Like it'll work more slowly for awhile, then blast water for awhile, and go back and forth. 

As for today, it's gone as planned I suppose. Took out over half a bucket of BDBS, re-scaped the BDBS after that keeping the front corner hills but also leveling the two sides a bit while making a mound down the middle. That can be seen in the first two pics but I'm not sure how well. Then I added the driftwood and filled the tank (too much), which is pictures three through six. Last two pictures are the tank with both lights in day and night mode.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Rush3737 said:


> With such solid progress I also figured I'd start the fishless cycle yesterday
> I'm using the Fritz ammonium chloride powder, used the recommended dose and got right to 4ppm.


Considerations about ammonia burn.
Just one example but many have done this with aquasoil in the past.
Maybe worth some investigation and some one else will chime in I'm sure.
IMHO even if pH is low ammonium/urea can still melt plants.
Think 1ppm was a target with plants in tank, but not sure.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/176321-ammonia-killing-plants.html


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

That clear center brace is a thing of beauty. Wonder why they don't make tanks like that any more?

Regarding fishless cycle, my first ammonia-only was slow and unsuccessful. I resorted to using bacteria in a bottle and adding ammonia in small quantities daily to simulate fish waste. I used API Quick Start, which seemed to start the ammonia->nitrite cycle very quickly. The back half, nitite-> nitrate didn't get going until I used Tetra Safe Start.

My pet theory is that both kinds of bacteria compete on the filter media. If you get the front end going strong and processing ammonia, and get it processing alot of ammonia, it could make the back half of the cycle harder to get going.


A bottle of both is about $10, so if you want a chance to speed it up... do very small ammounts of daily ammonia ( < .5ppm) Start with API Quick Start and keep ammonia < .5ppm until you see nitrites (should be in a few days), then dose Tetra Safe Start, keep dosing daily ammonia and make sure nitrites don't get above 2ppm. Once you see nitrates, you can start ramping ammonia dose to where it can process 1ppm or more per day.

If I had to pick just one I'd use Tetra Safe Start, but if I was starting from scratch I'd use both, because spending $10 to shave off a month or more is worth it.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

I didn't realize that ammonia would be so harmful to the plants, for whatever reason I had it in my head that the fishless cycle was fine for the plants. Luckily one pet store was open late enough for me to get there still, but unfortunately they only had the API product. I've dosed in 80ml as advised and will watch going towards Thursday when the plants likely arrive at the levels. I can water change at that point if need be to get it to 1ppm. As for Nitrites, I ordered the Tetra product and will add it Friday when it arrives if I see nitrites or will after that point. But from what you said the API should reduce the ammonia which is the immediate concern. 

My biggest concern or question is this. If I end up dosing on 1ppm ammonia at some point, will that be enough to establish enough bacteria to handle the rather immediate bio load of a "fully" (since fish won't be grown) stocked 75g tank?


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Getting ready to put this in a box! Even forgot 1 of the pics.
Might need to phone a friend? >
Some additions were mini myrio, blyxa japonica, and ranunculus. Just a few pieces of each.


















I would plant all of it and stay heavy with the plants.
Inevitably something won't make it, it is a known fact we can't grow everything no matter how hard we try.
Some plants I can't swap from tank to tank even with the same water and substrate.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Getting ready to put this in a box! Even forgot 1 of the pics.
> Might need to phone a friend? >


MG holey smokes that is a LOT of plants! 

Looking forward to seeing them in this new setup.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Greggz said:


> MG holey smokes that is a LOT of plants!


Past four years I've been able to find some one starting a new tank @ least once per year.
Throw out a planted tank all in one purchase extremely well priced.
It forces me to do a well needed trim, yes I complain a little, regardless it was needed and some one gets the benefits.
I hope @Rush3737 gets to experience a lot of plants from an all in one sale.
At least 23 species are in there I think!

My 75G actually looks trimmed, 33G not so much, 80G seems untouched, go figure!!!


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Getting ready to put this in a box! Even forgot 1 of the pics.
> Might need to phone a friend? >
> Some additions were mini myrio, blyxa japonica, and ranunculus. Just a few pieces of each.
> 
> ...


:jealous:


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

ChrisX said:


> :jealous:


Don't hate, you've got a bucket of plants from me before!
Maybe even two! >

Even offered some reds over the past year too!!!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Past four years I've been able to find some one starting a new tank @ least once per year.
> Throw out a planted tank all in one purchase extremely well priced.
> It forces me to do a well needed trim, yes I complain a little, regardless it was needed and some one gets the benefits.
> I hope @*Rush3737* gets to experience a lot of plants from an all in one sale.
> ...



Always nice having people like you in a particular hobby.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Don't hate, you've got a bucket of plants from me before!
> Maybe even two! >
> 
> Even offered some reds over the past year too!!!


WTH I've even offered to drop in with the PAR meter to test the new lights!
Talk about willing to help!!! >>>

Evil ain't I :grin2:


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Guppy is making the next step exponentially easier. Instead of trying to line up several orders close together to get the initial tank set up in one night I'm going to be able to throw a ton in and experiment and change from there. The tank will certainly stay heavily planted, only question is whether it stays heavily planted with the initial plants. My guess is some will certainly die, and others I'll simply end up not liking, but most I would wager will be in the tank a long time.

Edit: And that gaseous cycle link was a great resource, and I will be aligning both spray bars in the manner suggested.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> Guppy is making the next step exponentially easier. Instead of trying to line up several orders close together to get the initial tank set up in one night I'm going to be able to throw a ton in and experiment and change from there. The tank will certainly stay heavily planted, only question is whether it stays heavily planted with the initial plants. My guess is some will certainly die, and others I'll simply end up not liking, but most I would wager will be in the tank a long time.
> 
> Edit: And that gaseous cycle link was a great resource, and I will be aligning both spray bars in the manner suggested.


They probably won't die. They just say that so you don't feel bad if one does.

There will be so much, that you will need to make tough choices on what to keep.

With good CO2, light, and fertz, tank will be a jungle in three weeks. These are top quality submersed grown full of nutrients. Only potential problem could be shock from shipping.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> tank will be a jungle in three weeks.


Well then certainly some of the plants are doomed. I believe it was Jesus who said "you're in the jungle baby, you're gonna die".

Edit: And a random issue from a long while back solved. Couldn't embed pictures from my own server here, but have since (finally) got my SSL certificate and am now using https as opposed to http and will still be good once my imageshack trial ends in a week or two.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Hey folks, I'm just going through the thread trying to cover an outstanding questions I missed or questions I still have, so if you have info on any of the following please chime in!

-Firstly, the center glass brace. Chris, I'm guessing the look of it would be off-putting to some people, and while for most aquariums it might not be a big deal it will make working on the plants in a tank such as ours a little more difficult I believe. Back in the old tank with the typical thin black brace it was easy enough to reach under and go right of center from the left and vice versa, whereas now that's not really the case. The good news comes from the lighting. Exactly as people here had suggested I don't think it'll cause any issues on that front. No glare, doesn't seem to cast shadows or hurt brightness, and probably helps drop the middle PAR. 

-Ferts. I had mentioned my methodology in my Greggz sheet of determining my weekly ferts based on the bottle amount from NilocG as an average weekly total, does that seem correct? I know this is a rather specific question and I may not get an answer, I'm mainly wondering if likewise those dosage amounts are per application. Adding photo to help, will contact @nilocg directly via email if no one here knows.










-SunSun 704B, mentioned it was varying its power, sometimes moving faster and other times slower. Anyone experience this? Is it normal? If not have you heard of a fix?

-Fishless cycle, just want to make sure with a plant friendly max of 1ppm ammonia the fishless cycle will establish a colony strong enough to handle the incoming full (juvenile) stocking of a 75g tank. 

-Tank parameters, with a natural pH of 8.4, gH of 200, and kH of 440 do any of those numbers jump out as an issue to address? 

-Food, I think the following will be fine, but if the more experienced fish keepers have any input on if this is too much or too little variety let me know: New Life Spectrum 1mm Pellets, Omega One 2mm Pellets, Omega One Veggie Round Wafers, Omega One Freeze Dried Brine Shrimp, San Francisco Bay Freeze Dried Blood Worms.

-Eric, the PA Rainbow breeder, I did hear back and he's not working with Boesemani at this time.

-And one BIG final question. My only weekday off in January is Wednesday, January 9, one week from today. Given that I will soon have API fresh start and the Tetra safe start, assuming I am willing to test water daily and do water changes as needed, does anyone (especially @ChrisX) feel adding the fish would be safe at that time? I bought the medium sized bottle of the API product and have plenty more to add if needed. I don't want to rush the fish, but as far as days in the near-ish future that I would have the most time to be home when they arrive, add them, and monitor them afterwards it is the best day of the month.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Rush3737,

There are two stages in the bacterial cycle. Ammonia to nitrites, and nitrites to nitrates. In an ammonia only cycle, the first kind of bacteria develops, then you have to wait an eternity for the second kind to develop.

I believe the Tetra Safe Start contains both kinds of bacteria, but initially only a fledgling ammount to support a small amount of ammonia.

You could add fish with TSS, but you can also simulate fish by adding small amounts of ammonia and testing daily to see if the bio filter is keeping up. Over time you can keep adding more ammonia simulating a larger fish load. When it can process 1ppm ammonia daily, its probably ready for a real fish load.

The problem with fish-in cycle is that you have to start with a small amount of fish and build up gradually, which could be problematic if you are properly quarantining new additions. The bio filter increases slowly over time. You can do it safely with ammonia before adding fish.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

I do generally understand all that, let me rephrase a bit differently. Considering I've added the API product, and will have the Tetra produce ready to use, do you think that in one week the fishless cycle will be far enough along that I can add fish keeping up and helping the tank when needed. And I do realize that to add the fish ammonia would be at 0ppm and I would stop adding at that point.

Edit: And a big part of this is seeing where things are tonight after the API product has had 24 hours to work on the initial load of 4ppm ammonia.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> I do generally understand all that, let me rephrase a bit differently. Considering I've added the API product, and will have the Tetra produce ready to use, do you think that in one week the fishless cycle will be far enough along that I can add fish keeping up and helping the tank when needed. And I do realize that to add the fish ammonia would be at 0ppm and I would stop adding at that point.
> 
> Edit: And a big part of this is seeing where things are tonight after the API product has had 24 hours to work on the initial load of 4ppm ammonia.


Well... 4ppm ammonia is higher than it needs to be, and some people argue that ammonia that high impact the bio. But its probably ok, just wait to see if nitrites start appearing and how much the ammonia drops. You can figure out a conversion between ppm ammonia and ppm nitrites. I don't have my notes or I would share that info.

I cant advise you on a good time to add fish if the cycle is not complete. Hardy fish can probably survive if you keep doing water changes and (fingers crossed) the bio eventually catches up.

My whole point was to use ammonia to simulate fish before adding them. Only add ammonia until nitrites are 2ppm, then wait for nitrates to appear then slowly ramp up ammonia.

Typical use case for TSS is to put a few danios in when you add the TSS. Then a couple weeks later add a few more, then wait a couple weeks to add more, etc, etc. Because you don't have a cycled QT, the danger of adding fish slowly over time is disease and stress which could wipe out existing fish, then you are also dealing with disease management. And you will lose any delicate fish when the bio is not fully established, so a fish-in cycle will dictate your final stocking to a degree.

If you do a full fishless ammonia cycle to where it is processing 1ppm daily, I'd wager you will get to your maximum fish load faster and with alot less anxiety and heartbreak. OTH, if you plan out your fish-in cycle and stocking plans it may be more fun for you even if it takes longer overall and you are willing to accept fish deaths.

There was a guy here on the forum last year was a "fish killer", he kept adding fish, they kept dying, he spent probably thousands of fish only to have 90% of them die. Its hard to say what was happening, but he seemed to get a rush out of buying the fish and didn't care that they were dying. He would blame it on factors out of his control like bad stock, but chances are he didn't have a mature bio and would occasionally wipe out whatever bio he did have by fiddling with his tanks. For instance, he had several large tanks, was constantly buying fish, and it was discovered that he didn't have a water test kit until much later when people shamed him into buying one.


Don't be that guy.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

I think a couple of points of clarification and understanding are needed.

On my last 75g tank I went through a full fishless cycle, starting at 4ppm as advised using pure ammonia, waiting, and eventually getting to that point where overnight I could put in 4ppm ammonia and in the morning had nothing but nitrate. I know the patience of it, I know the importance of it. This time I chose to use a powdered ammonia, but same effect, and same advised starting point of 4ppm. The only reason that there was an initial problem is that people brought up that 4ppm might be high for plants, so now I'm using the products recommended by you to reduce that and speed up the overall cycle. 

It is only because I'm now using these unfamiliar products that I have questions about the timetable of things and the safety of things. As it stands I will certainly wait if there is any hesitation those products won't have the tank ready in the desired amount of time. 

I also know this info is buried in a longer thread now, but there is no question of how the fish will arrive or in what number, but it does eliminate some of the things you mentioned. I have a store in Oregon whose stock, selection, and quality I very much trust, with the only downside being expensive shipping costs. So that said the fish will come all at once on whatever day I decide and all go in together. 

On the last 75g I don't recall any fish deaths in the immediate aftermath of their arrival due to tank conditions, and I do not expect any this time around either. On that last round the fish included schools of Roseline Sharks and Dwarf Chain Loaches, not cheap to say the least, and this time around the total fish amount is $190 pre-shipping, so for their health and my wallet I don't expect there shall be any deaths.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> I think a couple of points of clarification and understanding are needed.
> 
> On my last 75g tank I went through a full fishless cycle, starting at 4ppm as advised using pure ammonia, waiting, and eventually getting to that point where overnight I could put in 4ppm ammonia and in the morning had nothing but nitrate. I know the patience of it, I know the importance of it. This time I chose to use a powdered ammonia, but same effect, and same advised starting point of 4ppm. The only reason that there was an initial problem is that people brought up that 4ppm might be high for plants, so now I'm using the products recommended by you to reduce that and speed up the overall cycle.
> 
> ...



Ok, not your first rodeo...

IME, API Quick Start is better at the first part of the cycle, and TSS better at the latter part. I've used TSS by itself and the tank wasn't processing large quantity ammonia as quickly as the API product.

If I had to use one, it would be TSS as it seems to establish both types of bacteria better.

This is all just anecdotal, there are too many variables, but hopefully it helps. Good luck.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

As I mentioned a few posts above, the API is in the tank and the Tetra arrives Friday, so if by Friday there are nitrites building then in goes the Tetra. As you recommended I will have and use both products and see what happens and how quickly. Will have tonight's results in a few hours seeing how well the recommended dosage of API did against 4ppm ammonia in the first 24 hours.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> As I mentioned a few posts above, the API is in the tank and the Tetra arrives Friday, so if by Friday there are nitrites building then in goes the Tetra. As you recommended I will have and use both products and see what happens and how quickly. Will have tonight's results in a few hours seeing how well the recommended dosage of API did against 4ppm ammonia in the first 24 hours.


Only problem with 4ppm ammonia is that it may lead to a nitrite spike... which could force a water change. So you'll have to decide if you want to do a WC before the TSS. And a WC will potentially disrupt the free floating bio.. so you dont want to do WC unless absolutely necessary.

I had the most success by simulating fish with small amounts of ammonia. Keeping ammonia under .5ppm, and nitrites under 2ppm seems to be the ticket.

If you add large ammounts of ammonia, the problem you will run into is a large nitrite spike before it starts processing. If you stop dosing ammonia, then the front half may die off. You see the issue of adding lots of ammonia?

Once ammonia is converting, you MUST keep adding daily ammonia to keep the front half alive, but if you add too much there will be a huge nitrite spike before the back half starts going...

Seriously.. try to simulate the fish. I did this in a 29g initially and from memory, I was just adding an ammount in ml that would cause .25ppm ammonia daily. I think it was 2ml/daily or every second day, but you must test to see. If you add more than this, it will just cause nitrite spikes which will force water changes.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

All that makes sense, what I'll likely do tonight is a water change to bring the ammonia level down to a lower level, no matter what it currently sits at and proceed from there more along the lines of what you are suggesting. 

When this is all said and done I'll have a tub-load of the ammonia powder leftover, so if anyone needs any please let me know and I'll happily ship a medicine vial full of it out, which for the method above would be more than sufficient.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Updated delivery, looks like today!
From a 3 day to a 1 day, can't beat that! :wink2:


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Yes indeed, my theory is that someone's animals snuck out during the night to assist an overloaded postal service! 

Last night I didn't detect any nitrites and ammonia sat firm at 4ppm. So I did a 50% water change to bring that level down to 2ppm and then added in 40L worth of API Safe Start to refresh the new water. 

Now that the plants arrive today my plan is as follows:

-Test ammonia, assuming it's still above 1ppm, do whatever water change necessary to reduce it to that amount. 
-Replace API Fresh Start as needed.
-Start CO2 flow.
-Dose macro nutrients. 
-The fun part, begin planting. I have a gSheet started with all the plants coming, their approx. placement level, and a quick link to pictures of all of them. Will also fill in where in the tank I place them. 
-Dose micro nutrients. (if memory serves this won't be great for iron levels but should help them get the other micros)
-Normally I have lights set from 1pm-9pm, but tonight I will run them from planting to about midnight to allow them 5 hours of time tonight at least. 

Tomorrow
-First thing AM dose macro. 
-CO2 to normal schedule of on at 11am, done at 9pm.
-Lights to normal schedule of on at 1pm, done at 9pm.
-Test for and add Tetra Safe Start if needed.

Saturday
-Dose micro. 

Sunday
-25% water change. Figure with only a partial week in ferts I don't want to do a full 50%, but can change if needed.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

@Rush3737, something I seem to remember from my days with the Matrix without Seachem experiment - if you declorinate your water with Prime, you may run into issues with the Tetra Safe Start and possibly the API Fresh Start (did not see anything specific on their site).

Question on Tetra site, 2 months ago 
Can I use TSS after dechlorinating water with Prime? (There seems to be a lot of conflicting advice on the web re: this topic.)

Answer - We do not recommend using it immediately after using Prime, no. You can use it with AquaSafe Plus, but with any other manufacturer's product, we recommend waiting at least 12-24 hours. We have not had the opportunity to research other company's products effects on this product.

BREX

http://www.tetra-fish.com/products/water-care/safestart-plus.aspx


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Interesting, since I do use Prime that could certainly be an issue that is delaying things. Assuming I do need the water change tonight I'll wait till tomorrow morning to add the API Fresh Start back into the tank.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

During my summer of experiments, I did use Tetra Safestart a few times with the intent of getting things moving along quicker. Seemed really odd that I could not get a 0.0ppm reading 24 hours after adding ammonia. After some research I learned (if I remember correctly) that the Prime will make ammonia "safe" for a period of time. What that seemed to do was make the ammonia unavailable to the ammonia oxidizing bacteria (AOB) in the Tetra Safestart. With no ammonia available, the AOB had nothing to do which resulted in 0.0ppm Nitrite created. Then as expected, the Nitrite Oxidizing Bacteria (NOB) had nothing to consume so the water tested 0.0ppm Nitrate.

What might work for in your case, if you happen to have an extra tank or something to hold water in, would be to season some water ahead of time. In other words, something that would hold 15-20 gallons of water that you can add Prime to and let it sit for 24 hours before you put it into your tank (with the new addition of Tetra Safe Start or API Fresh Start).

Once your AOB & NOB get established, then it won't matter if you add Prime to the water. As I think I stated before, during my testing I was doing a 100% water change (using Prime) on a 10g tank, then adding in 40ppm+ of ammonia. 24 hours later I got 0ppm ammonia and 0ppm nitrite. Nitrate on the other hand was thru the roof (estimated at over 200ppm)


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

I don't have any additional tanks or anything to hold that kind of water at this time, so I'll just have to take the patience approach. Really the WORST case scenario at this point is that the API and Tetra products are of absolutely no help and I end up doing a month long fishless cycle until the tank can convert 1ppm ammonia to nitrates in a reasonable time. I can delay adding the products to the tank that hopefully the prime effects wear off and at that point hopefully the process speeds up a bit.

Edit: Also, random unrelated bit. I heard back from Colin within minutes of emailing him about the ferts. The bottle lists are per dose, so I've updated my sheet accordingly.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Water change, done. Ammonia re-test, done. CO2, on. Macros, dosed.

Taking a short dinner break and then it's onto this:


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Rush3737 said:


> Taking a short dinner break and then it's onto this:


Short dinner break for a long night maybe? >


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Yes, I'd say that was accurate. Just the initial planting took well over two hours, and that's without putting together a master plan or likely doing much perfectly. I will likely do some replanting and better trimming and arrangement and all that, but for now want to see how everything does just acclimating to the new environment. 25 known species and 1 mystery species in the tank. Later tonight or tomorrow I'll likely do a short video to talk about it a bit more. For now just loads of pictures as I build it from the back in. Bulk of pictures with just 1 light on, final few with proper lighting setup.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Now thats how you start a planted tank! Nice job


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

This is awesome!

I love it.

Keep realistic expectations. Some will do better than others. 

But I have to agree with Immortal1 above, that is the way to start a planted tank!

And you are all in now!:grin2:


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

I certainly agree with both of you guys, but it's really MG that made it all easy. I had hoped to get a bunch of plants for the initial planting, but had never imagined looking at this on the first night. 

Early favorites include the Blyxa Japonica, Lobelia Cardinalis, Hygrophila Polysperma, and all the reds. One of my favorites from the old tank I believe went by the name Scarlet Temple and is one of the things I know I'll seek out to add in the future. In general the biggest change I expect over the coming months is that I'll replace any green plants that don't work out with reds and any other colors I can try out.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

I knew I should have sent more. :|
Still see too much substrate showing. >

Hope you are happy with the plants.
All of the species sent grow like weeds for me.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Maryland Guppy said:


> All of the species sent grow like weeds for me.


If they continue to grow like weeds any substrate showing won't be an issue for very long!


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> I certainly agree with both of you guys, but it's really MG that made it all easy. I had hoped to get a bunch of plants for the initial planting, but had never imagined looking at this on the first night.
> 
> Early favorites include the Blyxa Japonica, Lobelia Cardinalis, *Hygrophila Polysperma*, and all the reds.


This is an interesting one. MG sent me some of this and as it gets established, it has a tendency to grow sideways as well as up. Its growth habit is "expansive" and anything close to it will get crowded in short order. In your pic, the plants to the right will eventually be blocked of light.

IMO, its a good back corner species. In the middle of the tank it will get so much more light and grow 3x faster than everything else. I've kept it because it grows so well, but it is always sending out horizonal runners, which can be interesting or invasive, depending on your point of view. (I don't like the plant so much as I like how well it grows.) When close to the light it also turns a bit pinkish.

The red plants should probably be planted more centrally (perhaps in the middle 2/3rds) because they tend to need more light. Ambulia on the side will probably start leaning inwards towards a higher light source.

The Brazillian Pennywort is beautiful but annoying. Tank needs pretty high light for consistent lower leaf health in the bottom corner of the tank. Because it doesnt root, I've been tying it to a suction cup on the side of the tank, which I can move around. When tied to something on the bottom of the tank, the top expands and invariably blocks the bottom unless you have a way to keep it pinned to the side of the tank.

Part of the hobby is figuring out the growth habits of plants and how they impact the rest of the tank. Most of the popular species in dutch tanks exhibit vertical, compact growth.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Those will be good notes going forward Chris. My only hope is that the HP does indeed do what you're saying, as I like having one constant thriving crazy plant in the tank as a reminder that even if everything else seems to be going wrong at least you have to be doing something right! It's what cabomba was for me in the last tank. That and I suppose the Amazon Sword that refused to stop growing more and bigger leaves. I swear that thing would be there with the cockroaches after a nuclear apocalypse. Back to the HP, it will, like everything be subject to move and re-move once I see how everything really grows and reacts as most of these plants are new to me. 

As for the reds, I tried to space them out and surround them with green as I like how they pop out in those instances. But again, all subject to change. 

As for the Br. Pennywort, I didn't realize that didn't root. I did watch a refresher video on how to plant the various types of plants and saw for the first time Seachem Glue, and perhaps may choose to remove one of the piece of driftwood and spot glue it along that.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> As for the Br. Pennywort, I didn't realize that didn't root. I did watch a refresher video on how to plant the various types of plants and saw for the first time Seachem Glue, and perhaps may choose to remove one of the piece of driftwood and spot glue it along that.


The point I was making was that even if you go to all that work, the top growth will be vigorus and block lower leaves which the plant will eventually drop. It needs a way to be pinned to the side of the tank, or just float it which is its natural habit.

I have used black thread to tie plants to things, but invariably I'm never happy because plants that dont root, that are tied to the bottom to make them look rooted, never quite work long-term for me.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

I had a few plants that had to be tied down in the last tank. Didn't enjoy the process or the result really, so I am not likely to do that. Given those notes the most likely route for me going forward it uprooting the Br. Pennywort, letting a limited amount of it float, and then allowing the HP to move into that corner.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> I had a few plants that had to be tied down in the last tank. Didn't enjoy the process or the result really, so I am not likely to do that. Given those notes the most likely route for me going forward it uprooting the Br. Pennywort, letting a limited amount of it float, and then allowing the HP to move into that corner.


I'm sure you'll find a creative use for the Pennywort. If you want to have a large quantity of it in 1-2 weeks, just float it under the light.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

I don't remember the name of the plant, but I basically had something similar in the last tank. Tiny and floated, but if I had 10pc one week I had 50 the next. Constantly had to be throwing it away, ended up getting rid of it completely at some point.


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## money88 (Apr 27, 2016)

Rush3737 said:


> I don't remember the name of the plant, but I basically had something similar in the last tank. Tiny and floated, but if I had 10pc one week I had 50 the next. Constantly had to be throwing it away, ended up getting rid of it completely at some point.


Duckweed or Frogbit? I've never had duckweed myself but I've had frogbit and its fast growing like that and actually a great place for small babies to hide.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> -SunSun 704B, mentioned it was varying its power, sometimes moving faster and other times slower. Anyone experience this? Is it normal? If not have you heard of a fix?


Are you still having this issue with the SunSun? Is there any air trapped in it? I know for me and my 304B, I just added sponge filters to the intake and actually had to stop using the surface skimmer. The immense power of the 304 vs my other 303 caused the skimmer to suck faster than the water could flow (reduced flow at bottom due to sponge filter, path of lest resistance) and it actually took on a lot of air, causing the flow to completely stop at times. Once I burped the system clean and capped off the skimmer I have been good to go.

If not air, do you need to add a little Vaseline to something to the magnet of the impeller for the filter? 

Strange it would throttle like this...


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

When I noticed the issue the water was lower and so it was a lot more noticable, I haven't really noticed it lately. That said it is certainly noisier than the 703 which I don't hear at all and so I may be going the vaseline route in any case. Aside from priming is there a better way to ensure there is no air in the system?


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> When I noticed the issue the water was lower and so it was a lot more noticable, I haven't really noticed it lately. That said it is certainly noisier than the 703 which I don't hear at all and so I may be going the vaseline route in any case. Aside from priming is there a better way to ensure there is no air in the system?


I typically move the canister from side to side to help move the air through it. The tipping typically helps, as does time.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Thanks Grobbins, perhaps time has done the trick, but if I notice it again then I will try tilting it around. 

Money, I think frogbit was correct.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Here is the video showing everything thus far!


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

The two mystery plants are in really bad shape, I'd say easily the worst looking in the tank, pretty much just shy of melting away, so I think along with floating the Br. Pennywort and moving the other stems over I'll be removing them today. A second Blyxa needs replanting and a red crypt lost a leaf as well. 

These first few days are always tricky, I think everything is set up correctly but until you see regular growth and health it's easy to second guess everything. 

That said I got some more packages in this weekend and just about exhausted my scrap wood pile.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

I have some experience getting plants from MG, and I have some ideas that might help you.

MG's tank is completely different than many here (mine for sure). My theory is that plants kind of adjust to what is being provided. Moving them into a new environment can cause some stress as they adapt. And that's even in a very good environment, just different. 

Don't give up on ones that start to melt. Keep pruning dead leaves, but keep them planted. I had some Lobelia Cardinalis "small form" from MG that melted down to the nub. I left if planted, and then low and behold it started throwing out new leaves. Now it's a great grower. 

And that's just one of many. So keep up on the trimming of anything decaying, but have some patience. Some that start off rough might surprise you.

Good luck and this will be interesting to follow.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

I thought all bags were labeled, mystery plant I could identify for sure.

Crypts can loose all there leaves changing environments but they will come back.
Just removes rotting leaves as you can.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

I could have sworn one of the bags said something to the effect of mystery plant or unknown plant, but maybe I'm just being crazy on that. 

The good news is if you watch the video I show it around 2:03 and you could ID it.

The bad news is that all three plants were in really bad shape and I did my work prior to reading the last two posts and did chuck them. Did the rest of the work as well and the Br. Pennywort is "floating", also known as getting caught by the current, going underwater, and getting hooked on driftwood.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Checked your video.
They were unknown crypts until they got bigger.
Undulata or gecko varieties, possibly wendtii bronze.
New leaves will form, typical crypt melt.
I can't move them from tank to tank without the melt down.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Checked your video.
> They were unknown crypts until they got bigger.
> Undulata or gecko varieties, possibly wendtii bronze.
> New leaves will form, typical crypt melt.
> I can't move them from tank to tank without the melt down.


Kinda crazy how that works, and I will stick with the other crypts (which all still look good) even if they take a big turn down.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Alright, so I just realized what the main culprit likely is in the delay of the fishless cycle kicking in, my purigen. So tonight I'm going to remove that from both my filters until it's time for fish. 

And then there is the need to keep everything straight, leading to my creation of the following. Keep in mind it's not perfect, but as I move stuff around I'll like having this:


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## money88 (Apr 27, 2016)

So what lighting did you end up going with? And how do you and the plants like it?


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Keep in mind that I'm currently at work and my working knowledge is a few years out of date so this might not be perfect when talking about the plants. Lighting is the combination of the BeamsWork DS FSPEC 48" and Beamswork DA 120 6500K 48", both of which sport 120 LEDs at .5 watts each, just different color combos essentially with the FSPEC having green, red, blue, and white, and the other having blue and a ton of white.

For plants the last update contains most of the important information. The unknown crypts were some of the smallest when they went in and the melt was extreme, and I unfortunately chucked them before reading the advice to keep them to see if new growth occurred. The other crypts seem to be holding steady, aside from one leaf detaching. In the front right the Blyxa and Mini Guyana have some hair algae on them, but from what I can tell whenever a tank is in its initial stages some algae or issues are inevitable and I'm hopeful that once they get established they will easily out compete the algae. 

I don't know if it's technically "pearling" or whatever it is, but since floating the Pennywort always has bubbles on it or often flowing in a stream from it, which is a great sign. Usually some bubbles on the hydrocoytle as well if not another plant here or there as well. Most of the thicker stems seem to be holding steady, and I think very soon once they get established I should see some big growth on their end. It's the other smaller stems such as the Gratiola that looks the most fragile to me, but no signs of decay or anything like that. 

I should also be steadying up the CO2 in the tank this week since I was talking with Greggz (read: spending money ) and did end up buying the flowmeter. Once I get it in I'm going to figure out if I want to mount it and run in from the bubble counter, or simply hard tube it directly to the needle valve or regulator.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Okay, here is some better photographic answers. 

Firstly, the Pennywort and the streams it's putting off. 










Next the algae issues. Especially with the Blyxa I'm not sure how I want to proceed. They have enough trouble staying rooted to begin with, and I want them to get established, but removing the algae will surely pull them out, so not sure if I want to let them battle or remove and replant. 


















My favorite corner plant seems to be doing alright, though the outer leaves with the hardest time getting light do show some bad signs. 










Finally two days ago when I floated the Pennywort and moved these stems over I noted that this particular stem was about 1/2" below the break in the inflow pipes. It's thriving incredibly well considering it got cut from MG one night, shipped the next, planted the next, and then a few days later got cut once again and replanted.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Blyxa might need a weight.
When I split a lot of plants up some have little to no roots.
Use a small piece of the material they wrap around bunches of stems.
Use a small piece of the lead free material and just place it low in between the leaves. Don't try to wrap around the plant.
About a week or so you can remove it as roots get in the sub.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

I don't have any of that, but plenty of extra driftwood pieces, would I be able to pick up some of the seachem glue, attach it to a small piece, and then bury the driftwood? 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Man, today's activity turned out to be a lot tougher than I thought. Got the Dwyer piece in, so I went to Lowe's and of course they didn't have a 3/16 barb to 1/8 male fitting. Best they had was 3/16 barb to 1/4 male fitting. Then of course they did not have a 1/4 female to 1/8 male piece, just the opposite, so I ended up having to order those parts for Friday arrival. I guess I should have said first I decided not to screw with the regulator setup as is and am just going to run from the bubble counter into the Dwyer piece. 

So, mounting. Why the hell would they have the mounting screws and air in/outtakes both out of the back?!? So I had to find a way to mount it, vertically, with allowing later attachment of the pieces and room for the CO2 lines to come in and out. Eventually settled on something and did a temporary mount. Plus side of the setup is it'll be very easy to see when I open the door if the tank has emptied or there is some other issue causing the flow to be other than what it was set for.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Oh yesss... I remember the pains of setting up the Dwyer the first time. Special order parts and all. Totally worth it though!

What is kind of funny is a few months back many of us were discussing mounting them. A few of us (myself included) had been using velcro! Not anymore though, now I have a weird, rigged up mount!


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Couple of little updates, starting with the fishless cycle. With the API test kit I find the greens for the ammonia test hard to read, but relatively sure it was down to around .25ppm, so added back up to shy of 1ppm. Couldn't quite be sure nitrites were present yet, although I thought the blue was slightly off. Today however there was definitely a change and so I added the bottle of Tetra Safe Start to the mix. Glad to see that's finally taking hold, even if I feel the API Starter liquid did next to nothing, even with me adding some more pretty much every day till the bottle was empty. 

Ferts: Decided I'll try and keep up with the cool kids (somewhat), not switching to dry ferts yet, but will try my hand at front loading macros on Monday and then doing micros on Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. 

Plants: Kinda more of the same, not a huge update on a lot of things. Left side of the tank and center for that matter both seem to be in a holding pattern with not much wrong and not much noticeable growth. On the right side I've noticed that the Mini Guyana has some new growth that is much healthier than the rest, giving me hope that will be rebounding soon. Saturday in general will be a major day of maintenance, pruning and removing lots of dying or questionable stuff so what has otherwise been established can hopefully really thrive. And then of course the plant I posted about a few days ago about growth has continued to be a standout star. Again you'll notice the break in the black tubing that the stem was below just a few days ago.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Installed the Dwyer piece tonight, and my immediate observation is that one of two things was probably the case. 

1. Greggz was well off in his initial estimate of how much CO2 my system would need according to the flowmeter (25 units).
2. Far more likely, I didn't have my needle valve open nearly enough and wasn't providing enough CO2 to the plants. 

I increased flow substantially in order to get the flowmeter to 25 units and won't get much of a reading tonight as I leave in under an hour, but will have all day tomorrow to watch it. One major advantage to not having fish in the tank yet is it will make it incredibly difficult for me to suffocate fish if I've gone too strong. 

As for the plants, got a pair of good shots that demonstrate new growth vs. original plant:


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> Installed the Dwyer piece tonight, and my immediate observation is that one of two things was probably the case.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So when you installed the Dwyer did you leave the original needle valve at its setting and open the Dwyer way up to see what the flow rate you were running was? 

How much have you been pumping in? And you are now at 25 cc/min?
FWIW my 55 runs around 20-25 cc/min through a 10 inch cerges. I am remembering my pH drop over these next few days, but I am usually around 1.3 to 1.4.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

That is correct Grobbins, though I get the feeling in hindsight that something wasn't full working correctly because it basically was way too low at that time. Perhaps pressure needed to be allowed to build up. 

Today the reading was off again, which I attribute to fluctuations with the less than stellar needle valve. So what I've done now is opened the needle valve to operate open at 40 and dialed it down via the flowmeter to 25. If my understanding is correct (and it very well may not be), even if the needle valve tomorrow only outputs 30, or perhaps 50, the flowmeter will still hold steady at 25? Over halfway through my day and the flowmeter is still showing me just over 25. 

Did my trimming today, trying to pull hair algae off of what I could, and especially on a lot of front plants taking out a few pieces without much hope, especially the Mini Guyana and replanting the vibrant new growth. Also cut down on the Br. Pennywort which has predictably exploded, pruned the lower front leaves on the Lobelia cardinalis, and a few random rough patches on other plants. 

One thing I think has slowly caught me by surprise is my Hydrocotyle cf. tripartita. While the other Hydrocotyle on the middle mound struggles to do much and does have some hair algae the tripartita has really thickened up a lot. With the Gratiola viscidula not doing much if these trends continue what I'll likely do is get rid of it, move the Staurogyne repens to the middle mound to replace the Hydrocoytyle sibthorpioides, and then give the tripartita the entire left side of the tank along the front. 

For reference the pictures are the layout, and then the triparita when planted and then now.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Rush3737 said:


> If my understanding is correct (and it very well may not be), even if the needle valve tomorrow only outputs 30, or perhaps 50, the flowmeter will still hold steady at 25? Over halfway through my day and the flowmeter is still showing me just over 25.


Yes that's correct. Keep the needle open more than it needs to be. Let the Dwyer control the flow.

And lots of good happening. The first few months of starting a new tank are the trickiest, so be patient.

As things stabilize and the plants adjust should keep getting better and better.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

That is surely the hope! So the good news is as I was walking by later last night, which was post-prune and at the end of the first full day with increased CO2 I got a few pictures which are below. 

The bad news is, potentially, that my heater may be shot. I'm hoping there was just some sort of error, but after I drained my water and started refilling the thermometer read 70.2 instead of 78.0. Using hotter water I brought it back up to 74.5, but now my question is will it slowly dip back down towards 70, or get heated back up to 78 as it should...

Edit: Confirmed, heater is toast. I had heard Jager quality isn't what it used to be but this is still very disappointing and hopefully a one time problem. I had Jagers in both my old tanks for many years with no issues. In any case it's a free refund, and I actually bought a 300w as opposed to a 250w for a dollar cheaper than the last one. Will swap them out Tuesday night when the new one arrives. Another case of at least there were no fish affected.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Greggz was successful in getting me to buy in on Rainbowfish, now everyone has their shot again. One of the downsides of having to wait through a fishless cycle is that place I buy from refreshes their stock every Friday and I just happened to check on my eventual fish. The downside is that my loved Snakeskin Barbs are currently out of stock. 

The upside is that the Turquoise Rainbow just got added. 

This leaves me several paths going forward, and although I've dug around looking at lots of suggestions here I want to directly ask the folks helping the most if they want to push one way or another on anything. 

Remaining constant is: 6 Burmese Border Loaches, 6 Otos, 2 Pearl Gourami, and 4 pair Rainbowfish (Boesemani, Trifasciata, Yellow, and Kamaka).

Option A: Two additional pair of Rainbowfish, Red Laser and Turquoise. 
Option B: Add on of the above pairs and a very small schooling fish that you suggest (sans Harlequin Rasbora which was in the last 75)
Option C: The boring option, simply sub in Odessa Barbs for the Snakeskin Barbs
Option D: Sub in a different smallish schooling fish that you suggest. 

Let your voices be heard! 

---

On another note, when it comes to plants I'd say I'm about 1.5-2 weeks out from fish given how the cycle is going now, so sometime later this week I probably will move forward with any major changes to the tank so that plants can get well dug in to their new homes prior to fish arriving and scaping becoming more difficult. I can see myself making the changes noted a few posts above and possibly more, especially on the center and left sides. Additionally the right side has gone so well for the most part I might move one of the plants and leave more room for others. And through all this there are several spots where I will likely put back in a few scoops of BDBS.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Rush3737 said:


> Greggz was successful in getting me to buy in on Rainbowfish, now everyone has their shot again.


Now I am just hoping you like the Rainbows when you get them.......that's a lot of pressure. 

But really, it didn't seem you needed THAT much convincing!:wink2:

Oh, and answer is..................

Option A: Two additional pair of Rainbowfish, Red Laser and Turquoise.:grin2::grin2:

But seriously, it's a personal decision, and what matters is what looks best to your eye. I'm a Rainbow guy from way back, so I enjoy watching different species color up and mature. But like I have said before, I have seen tanks with only 1 or 2 species that are quite beautiful. 

Continued good luck and success on the cycle. You are really staring to get somewhere now.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

I have to agree with the personal preference on what you want to do. Thinking about what your ultimate goals are for the tank. Also, the tank may develop over time and you may decide to change direction slightly a few times. 

I, for example, wanted some sort of smaller schooling fish in the tank. This changed a little on me when I decided I wanted to make my 29 gallon a blackwater tanks and had nearly 20 cherry barbs in there. I love the cherry barbs, so I decided to plop them in the 55. A year ago when I was planning this tank I never thought of that as an option, but time and circumstances had one thing lead to another.

I guess the point is that planning is great, but plans usually end up changing a bit here and there (as you are seeing now with sourcing!).

Hope this was worth something. BTW, you are making some great progress, keep it up!


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

A shocking choice from Greggz! The thought of having the same general brand of fish but so much color variation is surely a tempting one. 

Grobbins, I fully understand what you're saying, but please feel free to share your preference. I'm not doing this as an all or nothing poll where I'm just going to roll with whatever is picked, but just want to give extra research and consideration to what those with more experience might be interested in seeing. 

If I ever did another non-planted tank, I'd almost certainly want to try my hand at cichlids, but really if I was going on my already established love I'd do a big barb tank. A 55 gallon tank or so could easily hold small schools of 6-7 different barb species, which I'd love to see. But with every tank there comes restrictions. I love the planted tank, despite how infuriating it could be at times, which cuts down on the fish available. I wanted new fish not in the last 75, which cuts down even more. I get a few ideas on some "for sure" fish that cuts down the remaining fish to those that are compatible. At that point I look for ideas from people on what choices I have left, hopefully get some fresh new ideas (for instance if not for here I probably would never have ended up with Rainbows), or perhaps am convinced to give a 2nd look to a fish I had overlooked, and then make a better decision from there.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> Did my trimming today, trying to pull hair algae off of what I could, and especially on a lot of front plants taking out a few pieces without much hope, especially the Mini Guyana and replanting the vibrant new growth.


A used toothbrush is the absolute BEST tool for removing that nasty thread algae. (Thread algae strands have some strength.) Toothbrush also necessary for removing algae in corners and at the junction of substrate and glass. The serrated backside of the oral-B toothbrushes I use, is also the best for removing BBA tufts on glass or equipment.

If its slimy algae, I will usually wipe it off with thumb and forefinger if there are leaves I want to save.

In you case, I would do H2O2 spot treatments on plants that are not strongly rooted. Turn off filters and use syringe to inject it directly to vicinity of algae. Because you don't have fish, you can do this pretty liberally.

Having successfully grown algae for the better part of the past two years, I'm probably in the top 1% of algae removal specialists! :surprise:


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> A shocking choice from Greggz! The thought of having the same general brand of fish but so much color variation is surely a tempting one.
> 
> Grobbins, I fully understand what you're saying, but please feel free to share your preference. I'm not doing this as an all or nothing poll where I'm just going to roll with whatever is picked, but just want to give extra research and consideration to what those with more experience might be interested in seeing.
> 
> If I ever did another non-planted tank, I'd almost certainly want to try my hand at cichlids, but really if I was going on my already established love I'd do a big barb tank. A 55 gallon tank or so could easily hold small schools of 6-7 different barb species, which I'd love to see. But with every tank there comes restrictions. I love the planted tank, despite how infuriating it could be at times, which cuts down on the fish available. I wanted new fish not in the last 75, which cuts down even more. I get a few ideas on some "for sure" fish that cuts down the remaining fish to those that are compatible. At that point I look for ideas from people on what choices I have left, hopefully get some fresh new ideas (for instance if not for here I probably would never have ended up with Rainbows), or perhaps am convinced to give a 2nd look to a fish I had overlooked, and then make a better decision from there.


As for the Odessa barbs, they really do get relatively large over time, so a school of them may be tough.

I lean towards with option A or B, but honestly probably closer to B at this point. I do enjoy my rainbows, but it is also really neat to see some _schooling_ type fish. I suppose what you need to think about too if you go with option B is will they be aggressive enough eaters. The cherry and denison barbs in my 55 are pigs and never has an issues getting food. Actually they are fist most of the time! But a smaller, more timid tetra or something like that may struggle.


And they more I think about it a shoal of one type of barb may be a fun way to go if they are already one of your favorites. If I could add more to my tank I would up my denison barb count by a few, as I lost one a couple months back and only have 3 now (and they are nearly always together, which is really fun to watch!).


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Thanks Chris, I will try that if needed as things progress. Of course it's still early since I did that last bit of pruning and cutting, but indications are looking better that the tank will deal with a lot of it naturally. The Blyxa in particular seems to be getting more vibrant in the middle and pushing any algae further down. The Gratiola and one of two others that may not be thriving do seem to be getting healthier and generally keeping any algae at bay or slowly beating it back as well. 

That said I do have access to syringes at work, and so I may pick up some H202 and try that out when I do my work here in the next few days. 

And Grobbins, well done going from abstaining to kinda grazing on every answer! LOL

Denison Barbs are out as I had them in the last 75 and I'd want a school of at least 6, and in my experience at least they grew into absolute monsters. That said they were standout fish in the last tank and I'd absolutely recommend them to people, LOVED them. 

What I love about Snakeskin Barbs is that they are both peaceful and laid back and yet I don't find them at all boring. My problem with a lot of the smaller schooling fish is that they just don't excite me all that much, their personality doesn't always connect well with me. In this particular tank Odessa Barbs may push it on size, and as far as barbs are concerned the only others I'd consider with this group are Cherry barbs. 

All that said, I did come around a good bit to my Harlequin Raboroas, and there is a whole world of smaller fish out there I don't know well, especially danios and other small rasboras and such.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> And Grobbins, well done going from abstaining to kinda grazing on every answer! LOL
> 
> Denison Barbs are out as I had them in the last 75 and I'd want a school of at least 6, and in my experience at least they grew into absolute monsters. That said they were standout fish in the last tank and I'd absolutely recommend them to people, LOVED them.
> 
> ...


Ha, thank you. You gave the push so I had to put some thoughts to paper!

I agree with the denison, not only do they get large, they get there quickly- Still love them!

I do not know too much about snakeskin (will have to look them up) but if you have your heart set on the can your LFS order them in for you, even if you have to wait a while? In the spirit of planted tanks and patience that is another possibility (if they can be available!).

And if cherry barbs are a consideration, well then I think you know where my vote goes. 

Turquoise pair with a bunch of cherry barbs (now that is commitment, haha!)


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Grobbins48 said:


> Ha, thank you. You gave the push so I had to put some thoughts to paper!
> 
> I agree with the denison, not only do they get large, they get there quickly- Still love them!
> 
> ...


If I had two fish I had experience with that I'd say are not as well known as they should be it would be Dwarf Chain Loaches and Snakeskin Barbs. The latter is one of the coolest looking barbs out there, doesn't have the aggression problems of many others, and when in a school has a much more reserved style and looks awesome when they huddle near cover together. 

I have considered the LFS option, but it has its drawbacks. I've put a huge investment into this tank already, essentially starting from scratch once again. Part of the advantage of getting all the fish from a single supplier I trust is that I believe the fish will be healthy, and if they are not chances are the issue will already be affecting multiple fish and the whole tank would have to be treated anyway. Getting another set of fish later means I either have to risk an entire tank with a new fish directly or put more money into a quarantine setup that I have nothing established towards. 

And although I did not have Snakeskin barbs in the 75 they were my main fish in the old 29, and I almost see this as a sign pointing towards keep trying new fish.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

I actually got a lot more done tonight than I thought I would, and grabbed some H2O2 and so am ready to do a spot treatment tomorrow. 

Before pic, I swear the glass wasn't nearly this green yesterday, but I gave it a scrape tonight before starting anything else. That's the first time that's been needed. Spot treatment should be especially helpful on the driftwood which is also getting a good amount of green on it. 










Before pic on main working area, post scrape.










Next two are post-movement. Trimmed some of the Hy. Tripartita ends that were not doing well and then cut and replanted some of the longer pieces I could separate. Got rid of the Hy. Sibthorpiodes because it was similar to the other Hydrocotyle but not doing as well. Also, THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE. Really though, they are so similar that having them next to each other would end in them becoming mixed to the point of not knowing which was which, so one went. I was planning on getting rid of the Gratiola as frankly it's probably my least favorite plant in here, but the roots gave evidence of doing better than I expected, so I placed it back right of the Hydrocotyle and will give it another chance. Staurogyne Repens got moved front and center. Back right of that I moved the Ranunculus inundatus up as it seemed to be staying rather short. Glad I did. Story of two plants. Old growth dying and removed, but plenty of runners and new healthy plants and branches. As a result of that move I piveted the Hemianthus micranthemoides back a little bit, replanting about 2/3rds of it. Added some BDBS during all of this and didn't touch the right side at all yet. 



















And not the best photo, but full tank after.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Alright, I have fish narrowed down a bit and am seeking further advice. 

I've eliminated option A (two pair Rainbowfish) as I definitely want 1 major schooling fish.
I've eliminated option D as I can get 1 pair Rainbowfish and still get a small schooler. 
I've all but eliminated option C as I think it'll be nice for me to break the mold and perhaps keep barbs (including Cherry) for a future tank. 

That leaves option C, which is one pair Rainbowfish and another small schooler.

First choice is a simple one, Turquoise or Red Laser? 

For the schooler, I'm looking at Chili Rasbora, Cardinal Tetra, or... and hear me out on this...

Glo Tetras. Look, I personally find them to be abominations, but there is no denying they certainly have the color that is so valued in a planted tank. More importantly my girlfriend loves them. In the last 75 there was a single token purple glo tetra (Penelope Pearl) that I succumbed to having to make her happy. And even though it was kept as a lone tetra (not great, I know), it survived for years till I had to get rid of the tank. I would prefer a larger school of the Glo Danios, but they don't fit as well with my temperature range. The other benefit of all this would be that I can get them direct from the breeder, meaning I'd be more apt to allowing the other fish to come in and have the tank stabilize and add them in later.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Rush3737 said:


> First choice is a simple one, Turquoise or Red Laser?


Adult male Lacustris (Turquoise) are spectacular. I would never be without them.

And that is one of the fullest initial plantings I have ever seen!


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Greggz said:


> Adult male Lacustris (Turquoise) are spectacular. I would never be without them.


Well then, I'll consider their recent stocking to be the silver lining to my lack of Snakeskin Barb black cloud. 

As for the plants, it's MGs fault! I know it was only the tiny unknown crypts and one other plant that got axed, but kinda crazy that I'm already having to move stuff to make room for all the expansion.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Greggz said:


> Adult male Lacustris (Turquoise) are spectacular. I would never be without them.
> 
> And that is one of the fullest initial plantings I have ever seen!


I agree with the above. The Turquoise in my tank are young but already look vibrant- even the females!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Grobbins48 said:


> I agree with the above. The Turquoise in my tank are young but already look vibrant- even the females!


Just wait...........................................


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Greggz said:


> Just wait...........................................



Have 2 of these myself - beautiful fish!


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Will continue the fish discussion at the bottom, but for now...

FIRST MAJOR TANK CRISIS TONIGHT

Where to start... I got my new Jager 300w heater in tonight and decided to take on the rather simple task of swapping out my inline heaters. My thought was have a towel on hand, turn off the filter, remove old unit, and then quickly slip in the new unit with minimal water loss. Well as I pull out the old unit I discover the glass is broken about halfway down. I am able to temporarily get the new heater part way in to plug the onslaught of water. Then in my infinite rush-caused stupidity I get the intake out of the water, grab a pitcher, and wonder why so much water is coming out once I remove the heater. Then I realize what a dumbass I've been, put the heater a foot back in, and take out the outflow from the tank. Now I successfully drain the remaining water. The ONE thing the went right tonight was the next step. I removed the special fitting that held the heater, and had a grabby tool just long enough to grab the half of the glass that remained inside, and worked it to the entrance. No way to get it out with the grabby tool on it however. So I put in my finger, slowly work a half inch or so of the glass over it and managed to carefully work it through the opening. 

Now it's worth noting that in that past bit of story, as in all going forward I'm working in a tight space making wrench turns 1/6th of a rotation at a time. 

So I reattach the special fitting and put in the new heater. Put intakes and outflow back in, turn on filter, and finally get the new heater heating. Tank slowly starts warming up, success!

OR IS IT.

Spoiler f&*%ing alert, it's not. 

After dinner and last week's Orville episode I check on the temperature. It has gone from 70 to 72, great, but the pipe is ON FIRE. Okay, not literally, but it was HOT, with a CO2 line running over one section looking a little out of shape. So I decided my beautiful inline heater may not be the safest idea and has to go to another backup plan. Turn filter back off, take out the outflow, remove heater, unscrew fitting, and yell obscenities in my head. At this point before heading to the hardware store I decided I wanted to kill something, and algae is one of the only acceptable options so I filled my syringe with H2O2 a few times and lit up the driftwood. When I took a picture it was a little past peak awesomeness, but it's at the end of the post. 

Thankfully Lowe's is literally 2 minutes away, so a quick stop for a 1" plug and at checkout a pack of Lifesavers gummies I was back on the road home. Once there the plug was slowly wrenched into place, the outflow was placed back in, the pumps were back on, and the heater was placed in the tank. Between the intake coming in and out in a rush and the heater going in a couple of plants got disturbed, the worst uprooted cases were stuck back in, but tomorrow I'm going to have some more detailed maintenance time to make sure everything is well in the tank. 

ALRIGHTY THEN, back to the fish...

---

So you guys seem unanimous with what was my preference anyway, so the Turquoise will be the rainbow choice, anyone have any ideas on the schooling choices?


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Rush3737 said:


> As for the plants, it's MGs fault! I know it was only the tiny unknown crypts and one other plant that got axed, but kinda crazy that I'm already having to move stuff to make room for all the expansion.


This just means you are doing something right!:grin2:

The FTS's seem all green plants?
Concerns are ammannia senegalensis and rotala magenta should be reds?
Do you have a PAR estimate @ substrate?:frown2:

As for phish, Rainbow Turquoise has an awesome color in any tank!>

I'm not much the phish keeper these days.
Do appreciate nice looking phish though.

Consider using Excel/Glut to fight any Algae issues going forward.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

For PAR I will know in the coming weeks on my setup, but Grobbins has a VERY similar setup and mine will likely be very close to his, which you can view here: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...ave-par-data-1-10-2019-a-19.html#post11158307

I'm really hoping that as things become stabilized the algae isn't a persistent issue, but when it gets closer to fish I'll switch over to Excel for sure.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Alright, did some moving around the last few days and did one of the handy graphics all the cool kids are doing these days. One major change is I decided to take out the large driftwood pieces, at least for now. The higher portions just seem to be algae sponges, and with no fish to benefit for now I think this is likely the right move. And honestly the look didn't suffer much it seems. 

First an overall shot of the tank:










And now plants on the right (good) side:










A: Hygrophila polysperma
B: Limnophila sessiliflora
C: Ludwigia repens
D: Lobelia cardinalis
E: Limnophila aromatica Mini
F: Clinopodium brownei
G: Blyxa japonica
H: Ranunculus inundatus
I: Staurogyne repens
J: Crytocoryne undulata / Crytocoryne lucens
K: Bacopa monnieri
L: Pogostemon erectus

Y: Hemianthus micranthemoides
Z: Myriophyllum sp. ‘Mini Guyana’

A is the standout of the tank, which I trimmed heavily to move along the length of the heater. B is growing quite well and is another great high corner plant. C was just cut in half and was taller, but got shifted to along the glass behind D which is on the mound. E, F, and L all got moved in the last few days with their height necessitating a change. F in the back especially almost got completely covered. G continues to bush up and I believe is still slowly shedding algae. H and I are steady. K doesn't look like much happens, but certainly a little taller and definitely thicker. J is the crypts and still two of the bleakest looking plants in this bunch for sure. Y and Z were the two cuts. Z just wasn't doing much, even the new growth, and looked frankly like a poor man's B in the tank. Y I just didn't like much and wasn't rooting strongly. I prefered giving the space to other plants in that very busy right side. 

The left (less good) side.










M: Hydrocotyle leucocephala
N: Gratiola viscidula
O: Hydrocotyle cf. tripartita
P: Ammania senegalensis / Pogostemon kimberley / Rotala magenta / Ludwigia brevipes
Q: Pogostemon pumilus
R: Pogostemon stellatus

M got knocked down by flow but it usually floating and always expanding. N I like the pointiness of the leaves, but otherwise this plant seems not to grow overly well. If this side was expanding at the rate of the right was it would quickly get to the chopping block. O continues to thicken crazily in the original mound position and will do well in its extra new space was well. While Q is going well in the back, which I didn't realize till the driftwood moved, the R seems well but stunted in growth, while the combination of plants of P all seem to be having a hard time thriving. Not a lot of height, leaves that seem curled or questionable, not as colorful as they could be. Going to be interesting back there.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Good progress. I would put those colored plants on the left side, somewhere in the middle so they get more light.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Well, Chris, with such massive work on the right side it was only a matter of time for the left, and today was that day. Plants represented by letter below:

So firstly every plant except M, which is floating, was taken fully out of the tank. Then I re-did the hardscape. With no driftwood in the back and the carpet doing well at full depth no need for the mound in the front left, so basically flattened everything out. While we're on the subject of the carpet, wow, don't think I've ever had anything go as well as O has. I pulled out such a ridiculously thick bunch of the stuff I couldn't believe it. I didn't touch the stuff on the right that had recently been planted, but expanded its general domain and used probably less than half of it when re-planting and was left with a huge bunch for the trash. In a week I probably won't be able to see substrate there again. 

R might do too well in this spot and get too high, but for now it got moved front and almost center. Between that and O doing so well I did decide to nix the only major algae plant on this side and so unfortunately N is gone. This is the last plant elimination I foresee in the immediate future, with everything else doing relatively well in some ways at least. The mix of plants that is P was moved away from the corner per Chris's suggestion and Q will be the corner plant on that side. 










M: (Floating, not in picture) Hydrocotyle leucocephala
N: (You are the weakest link, goodbye!) Gratiola viscidula
O: Hydrocotyle cf. tripartita
P: Ammania senegalensis / Pogostemon kimberley / Rotala magenta / Ludwigia brevipes
Q: Pogostemon pumilus
R: Pogostemon stellatus


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> Will continue the fish discussion at the bottom, but for now...
> 
> FIRST MAJOR TANK CRISIS TONIGHT
> 
> ...


Doesn't happen in a sump. Just sayin :grin2:


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Heh, it's never enough. But unless I were to go really big I don't think I'll jump into the sump world just yet. Although just to show how this place always did and continues to push me out of my comfort zone I pretty much decided that after a few months of standard dosing, once my current NilocG EI supply runs out I'll switch over to custom fert mixes to better dial things in from that point. I forget if it was the sale section here or another site but seeing someone that had a package of all the different salts in reasonable volumes at a reasonable price certainly does help in that endeavor.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

@burr740 has had packages in the past. Reach out to him and see if he is still running them.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Grobbins48 said:


> @*burr740* has had packages in the past. Reach out to him and see if he is still running them.


 I have all the individual micros in a DIY package, and Fe. That's the only ferts I carry atm. Got plenty of plants though!


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Indeed I think it may have been @burr740. Although I don't NEED more plants in the tank I'll likely be reaching out at some point when I look to add more red into the tank. That said he has been sold out of AR when I've looked at the past two threads, and that's high on my priority list. 

I also love the look of his Marsilea minuta, but my Hydrocotyle is doing so well I can't justify trying out a different carpet yet. 

In any case, worst case scenario is a fert order in a few months.


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## FranklyFish (Jan 4, 2019)

I would recommend rummy nose tetras. They are probably the tightest freshwater schooler. I have found that my glowlight tetras (not to be confused with glofish) and cardinal tetras don't tend to school that much. But my rummy nose tetras are all ways in a tight ball and swimming around together. Also a few otto cats are great in a planted tank as they keep everything clean. Also some amano shrimp work good on algae too.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Thanks FF, I had looked at the RNTs but they didn't excite me like the other options did, and I don't necessarily need the "tightest" school possible as long as the general schooling look is there. 

And 6 Otos will be in the tank, and as you pointed out are pretty much a maintenance choice, but I find them to be not very flashy to look at and certainly didn't want them as my primary schooling fish. 

I've never considered shrimp before as that's another level of care I've yet to venture into, but would they work with Rainbowfish, Otos, Burmese Border Loaches, and a pair of Pearl Gouramis? I don't want to completely change gears to accommodate shrimp, but if they were to already fit with what I have I could be persuaded to look into it.

Edit: Some quick looking around makes it seem like having any loaches (which I'd really like to) eliminates the possibility of shrimp, at least long term. Some success stories around about various loaches leaving shrimp alone, but it would basically be a gamble to have them.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Okay, a rather important update as we head towards fish. I have to say, firstly, that algae issues aside the growth throughout the tank is really stellar. This despite what is now proving to be a less than perfect CO2 system with my cheap regulator continuing to not work properly with the flowmeter. 

This leads me to my glass algae/hair algae and what I think some causes are. 

-New tank
-Excess ammonia from fishless cycle
-CO2 fluctuations
-No "predators"

So here is the schedule pushing forward. 

-Tonight I did a cleaning of both filters, which were still in pretty great shape, frankly, which is a good sign. 
-Hopefully Saturday, but by latest Monday a two stage Victor regulator and solenoid will be here allowing me to fix my CO2 issues. 
-Monday the fish ship out.
-Tuesday the fish arrive. 

Although the cycle might not be *quite* where I want it by that point I've ordered a big bottle of Seachem Stability and more Prime to help finish things and am confident that those along with where I'm at right now will allow me to manage the tank. This will help eliminate all of the factors I think that are contributing to the algae growth and hopefully really help balance the tank. There is also the issue of my days away next month. I thought about it a lot and my girlfriend has handled tank duties before when I'm away, and I can trust her with that, as opposed to explaining the fishless cycle and trying to get her to do that. 

Final fish list is as follows:

-2 Boesemani Rainbow, 1M/1F
-2 Trifasciata Rainbow, 1M/1F
-2 Yellow Rainbow, 1M/1F
-2 Kamaka Rainbow, 1M/1F
-2 Turquoise Rainbow, 1M/1F
-5 Burmese Border Loach
-6 Otocinclus
-2 Pearl Gourami, 1M/1F
-15 Cardinal Tetra
-6 Amano Shrimp

I am aware the amano shrimp will likely become food at some point, but my hope is that the loaches keep to the easier snails for awhile and at least leave the shrimp alone for a few months. If not they'll be $3 snacks, and I've accepted that. I settled on the Cardinal Tetras simply because I liked their colors best of what I was looking at, and the Glo-fish seem too expensive right now. It would have cost me twice as much to get a school half that sized of Glo-Tetras. 

Likely this weekend I'll do another video showing the plants off prior to fish becoming the stars of the show.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Rush3737 said:


> Okay, a rather important update as we head towards fish. I have to say, firstly, that algae issues aside the growth throughout the tank is really stellar. This despite what is now proving to be a less than perfect CO2 system with my cheap regulator continuing to not work properly with the flowmeter.
> 
> This leads me to my glass algae/hair algae and what I think some causes are.
> 
> ...


OK now the fun is really beginning.

On the day the fish arrive, I would leave the CO2 turned off.

These Bows will be small, and have traveled to get to you. The more oxygen you can get in the tank the better. So make sure you have good surface agitation and/or a bubbler. 

Give them a day to adjust, then you can continue CO2 injection. Of course, when you turn the CO2 back on, keep an eye on the fish, but they should be fine once they get stabilized. 

Good luck and hope all goes well!


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Greggz said:


> OK now the fun is really beginning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One advantage of smart plugs, I can run things normally and shut off the CO2 from work 2hrs prior to being home, and I will be trying to cut out early. I can also cut the lights. 

All my filters are angled up at surface as earlier suggested, and that Sunday prior I'll leave water levels a little lower than usual to help exchange. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Rush3737 said:


> One advantage of smart plugs, I can run things normally and shut off the CO2 from work 2hrs prior to being home, and I will be trying to cut out early. I can also cut the lights.


Just make sure you do. Three or four hours would even be better, or not on at all for the day.

Trust me, with these little ones fresh from shipping, you want no CO2 and plenty of oxygen. Don't mean to harp on it, but want to save you potential heartache.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Greggz said:


> Just make sure you do. Three or four hours would even be better, or not on at all for the day.
> 
> 
> 
> Trust me, with these little ones fresh from shipping, you want no CO2 and plenty of oxygen. Don't mean to harp on it, but want to save you potential heartache.


Couldn't agree more. One day of no CO2 and a shortened/ non existant light cycle won't hurt in the grand scheme of things, but will be much appreciated by the new livestock!

Excited for you to be reaching this phase, enjoy!


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Alright, no lights or co2 that day! 

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## FranklyFish (Jan 4, 2019)

I found that generally the adult shrimp do not disappear. Bamboo or vampire shrimp are also really cool as long as you have a tight fitting glass lid. They get around 2 to 3 inches and are filter feeders and are pretty unique and cool to watch. I have 3 yo yo loaches and they do chase my cherries but only when they see a cherry shrimp holding on to a piece of food. Never seen anyone actually eating a shrimp. I have never really noticed a decline in population.

Also, 2 or 3 hillstream/butterfly loaches would be a fun addition as they are really cool fish. They stay small and are are algae eaters as well. I would say they are very similar to otto cats just more exotic/unique. I really enjoy otto cats and hillstream loaches. Hill stream loaches really dont swim around the tank. They kinda just scoot along the glass. I think they have fun personalities. Ottos dont school a lot but they do like to group up every once in awhile. 

As far as my experience with neon and glowlight tetras, I find them to not really be schooling fish at all and they disperse themselves fairly evenly throughout the tank. The rummynose tend to stay together. My white cloud minnows tend to school more than glow light tetras and they are a relatively good looking fish as well.

In the end it really comes down to personal choice and what makes you happy!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

@Greggz- Do the rainbow fish not need a group of the same variety much in the way that Tetras do to school? Well, I know they aren't technically a "schooling" fish, per say- more shoaling; but, they are "gregarious" in that they need their own kind to be secure.
Are they not so particular when it comes to variety being the same? 
I haven't kept them, so this will help me in the future if someone asks about stocking.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

FranklyFish said:


> I found that generally the adult shrimp do not disappear. Bamboo or vampire shrimp are also
> In the end it really comes down to personal choice and what makes you happy!


Indeed, and I hope I made the right choices, as I just paid for my order!

As for the shrimp, they will surely arrive on the smaller side, and so will the Burmese Border Loaches. Luckily the latter is a smaller adult loach as well. So hopefully with plenty of snails currently as long as the loaches don't have a growth spurt early I'm hopeful they will coexist happily. 

I did consider those hillstream loaches as I concur they are pretty exotic looking, but they weren't available from my supplier so unfortunately no go this time around.

Edit: Also, some CO2 info, reg and sol arrived today, so I can effectively build the new setup tomorrow night. Final piece scheduled for Saturday is the 12v power supply/adapter for the sol.


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## FranklyFish (Jan 4, 2019)

My local petco has an actual aquatic specialist who has about 60 some of his own tanks and breeds his own fish as a company and works at petco on the side. He actually got the hillstream loaches for me! He is better than any of the lfs unfortunately. The yoyo loach and yours seem to be pretty similar fish so I bet your shrimp should be pretty safe.

But bamboo shrimp would be a really safe bet. They get almost 4 inches probably but they are escape artists so you have to be mindful of that...


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

I will say, that as far as LFS go I do have one in the area that looks really nice and also my local Pets Plus actually has a rather fantastic looking fish section. If I didn't use Wet Spot so successfully in the past I'd certainly go to one of those places to get a number of fish and fill in from other sources. As is though it's tough to beat Wet Spot for one stop shopping of a huge variety along with thus far amazing healthy fish.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Discusluv said:


> @Greggz- Do the rainbow fish not need a group of the same variety much in the way that Tetras do to school? Well, I know they aren't technically a "schooling" fish, per say- more shoaling; but, they are "gregarious" in that they need their own kind to be secure.
> Are they not so particular when it comes to variety being the same?
> I haven't kept them, so this will help me in the future if someone asks about stocking.


As you said, Rainbows do not school, more like hang around together.

I have read dozens of times that you need to get at least 6 of each variety, and you need to have 3f to 1m, etc. IMO, these are all myths. A great example of something being stated, then repeated, then becoming folklore. 

I keep an all male tank, with anywhere from 4 to 1 of each variety. Honestly, it really makes no difference. A well bred well cared for Rainbow will grow up to a beautifully colored long lived fish, regardless of the tank mates. 

Now when it comes to sparring/flashing (mating ritual), they tend to keep to those of their same species. Melanotaenia Trifasciata tend to spar with Melanotaenia Trifasciata, which has many varieties. Glossolepis tend to spar with Glossolepis.

You have seen the picture of the Wonga Creek Rainbow a page or two back. He is the only Wonga Creek in my tank. However, there are other Trifasciatas in the tank, and he "hangs out" and spars with them. And he has matured into a beautifully colored example. It's breeding and health. Not the tank mates.

If you have never seen sparring/flashing, they produce a neon like stripe down their nose (chemically generated) and display extra vivid colors. It happens daily, and is fascinating to watch.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Okay, I seriously need some ideas from the brain trust, Because I'm at one of those points where I just want to throw all CO2 related items out the window. @Greggz might have some insight here? 

Long story short, got the last of the parts in today, a day early, so stopped at Home Depot on the way home for all the little brass connectors I would need, got the rig assembled, and hooked it up. The Victor reg looks like an impressive beast but was DOA. Open tank and the working pressure just rises constantly, no matter what I do with the screw. Let's move on past that. Remembering a recent thread I say F-it, I'm stopping by the local Harbor Freight, get myself the mid-range regulator, and even stop at Praxair from there to get a PSI gauge to replace the Liter/Minute gauge as the OP had done there. Then to Lowes for the extra connector I need for that, get home and same damn problems as I had before I made all the changes. 

Dwyer meter shows great controls between 0-20, but above that it's hard to adjust, starts getting wonky, and usually at some point rises quickly to the top, with no predictable method of how or when it'll settle. Tried adjusting with working pressures from 20-40psi. Did another leak test and didn't find anything, though I'm convinced I must suck at leak tests from past experience. Still, in theory I don't *think* that would case this and I'm just not sure what the hell to do at this point and am just so very frustrated with all things CO2.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Is there any way you can post a video of how the regulator and the flow meter are acting? Sounds like a bad seal in the regulator, but I could also be wrong.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Out tonight but will do tomorrow, however it's unlikely as the issue has repeated over multiple regulators. 

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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

I'm going to ask a stupid question.

You do have a seal between the regulator and the tank? Permaseal? 

And it sounds like you have two problems. The regulator pressure rising, and the flow meter?

Trying to determine if they are related. But having a hard time wrapping my head around what you have going on there.

I bought a GLA regulator (everything comes assembled), so I have no idea about all the connections and parts you have been buying and fitting together. 

Pics videos might help. 

And sorry, wish I could be of more help.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Will do more tomorrow, but rising pressure was only with Victor regulator, Harbor Freight reg seems to work correctly. Using normal nylon washer on cga 320 connection. 

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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

@Rush3737: For the CO2 system, can you post detailed info on what you have and how it's connected, plus photos? Include part numbers also. In looking through recent posts, I can't tell what needle valve your using, what's the model number of the Victor regulator(new or used?), what type of tubing and connectors are being used, etc. Also, are you using a diffuser or just have the CO2 entering the reactor via the tubing? Detailed system info would really be helpful in trying to help out with resolving issues.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

@Grobbins48 @greggz @Ken Keating1

Current setup is the following reg with working gauge replaced: https://www.harborfreight.com/co2argon-flow-gauge-regulator-63787.html

Into the following sol: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0794XJGBF/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Into the flowmeter, through two check valves, into the Griggs reactor. 

---

Victor was a very temporary test with the reg itself almost surely being defective. I did email the seller about the issue it was having and he had no arguments given what I described that it wasn't working. 

---

Original setup was the following: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07HNQZ616/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Everything after bubble counter, ie flowmeter, check valves, griggs, remains constant. CO2 tank also remains constant. 

------

So it's in the video at the bottom but the problem remained the same across the two working systems. Weather the cheap original regulator it didn't matter how open or closed the needle valve was, the flowmeter would get extremely difficult to handle over 20. If I ran the flow meter wide open and tried putting CO2 there with the needle valve, or put the needle valve at 50 and then tried to close the flowmeter down to 30 I found doing this consistently and constantly impossible. 

Fast forward to the current setup and the problem quickly reappeared. Now the two variables are the working pressure and the flowmeter and it's the same issue. Whether a 20psi working pressure or 40psi working pressure the issue is the flow can not seem to settle at 25-30cc/min. It'll bobble there awhile and usually either rocket up past 50 at some point or settle back down below 20. This still happens whether I keep working pressure constant and adjust flowmeter or if I set flow at 20cc/min and then increase pressure to get flow up to 30cc/min.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Victor regulator is not a high purity regulator.
This reg likely needs a diaphragm kit and has rubber goods inside.

Harbor Freight reg is most likely fine even with Argon adapter.

Brass check valve first shown in video, have you tried bypassing this and using a 10PSI working pressure to reactor?
What is the pressure flow rating on the brass check?

Small check @ reactor most likely flows @ 1PSI.


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

Great post and video @Rush3737, lots of good information provided.

To me it appears your regulator(s) are not providing proper, consistent regulation. Once the flow rate changes, the regulator is varying the pressure upwards over time, it's "hunting" but not settling down to a steady value. Also, the regulators you're using don't appear to be true 2-stage regulators. To be honest, I don't believe a inexpensive regulator is going to obtain near the consistency of a high end regulator. Others have gotten them to work out fine, but it may be because they've luckily hit the sweet spot of the system parameters to make the system stable, but I also see others with issues regarding EOTD and consistency.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Ken, the original and current setup are surely only single stage, the Victor that did not work was dual stage. 

MG the brass check valve is this: https://www.amazon.com/AQUATEK-Prem...ocphy=9007201&hvtargid=pla-568920829180&psc=1

Designed for a aquarium CO2 system, so I'd like to think that's not the issue, though I may try removing it if other options run dry. I will try to see if I can get working pressure down to 10 psi, but this reg didn't go that low when I first put it on. Before I try removing that, do you think it would be worthwhile going the other direction and doing about 45psi to see if that high pressure helps keep everything smoothly open?


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

I have another idea but I'll have to post it later.
Off to a meeting now.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

When I watched the video, I thought that the problem is probably one or both of the check valves. Try running with either one, not both. May also be the flow meter.

At least you know the regulators are both good.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

I have some ideas that may help. First off I notice you don't have any type of needle valve between to solenoid and the flow meter. With that said, the flow control valve in the flow meter is your only variable with regards to the flow of gas. In my opinion, the control valve in the flow meter is simply not precise enough for setting and maintaining overall fine adjustments. 

I suspect that the reason the flow rate increases from 30 to 50+ is because your regulator output pressure changes a bit (i.e. from 20psi to 22psi). It is not necessarily noticeable on the output gauge but it is likely happening. As the output pressure fluctuates, so does the volume of gas leaving the regulator. On my setup, I have noticed that I can effect the ph in the tank simply by adjusting the working pressure by 2psi without ever changing the needle valve.

Now, with the CO2 tubing between the solenoid valve and the needle valve you are likely getting some fluctuating pressures. Think of the flow control valve as holding back the 500-800 cc/min that the regulator "can" produce. The pressure on the spring inside the single stage regulator is is fluctuating due to variables down stream of that spring (water pressure changes in the reactor, small variances in the flow control valve, etc.). 

To possibly correct those variables, I would suggest removing the needle valve and bubble counter from the chinese unit and thread it into the solenoid. Now you have a non flexible path from the spring in the regulator to "a" needle valve which will hopefully limit fluctuation from effecting the regulator spring. Another way of looking at it would be;

Regulator spring is set to 20psi. Path thru solenoid *to* needle valve is also 20psi. Tubing leaving needle valve is likely going to have just enough psi in it to overcome the pressure of the water within the reactor (likley <2psi) assuming Dwyer flow control valve is wide open. Now, adjust the chinese needle valve so that the Dwyer flow meter is showing about 45-50cc/min. Then adjust the flow control valve on the Dwyer to 30-40 cc/min. 

If my thought process is correct, once some co2 builds up in the reactor the flow rate shown on the Dwyer should stablize assuming the regulator holds a consistent psi.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

I have nothing scientific for you, but I did just spend about 20 minutes trying lots of combinations with my flow meter.

Here's what I found. I run mine at 20 psi. Turn it up to 30 psi, less stable harder to dial in. Turn it up to 40 psi, even less stable and harder to dial in. Lower seems better. 

Then I tried it with the needle valve wide open, only using the flow meter valve. When the needle valve is wide open, very small movement of the flow meter valve does change level quickly. Pretty touchy, and a little bouncy, but I could dial it in. Just have to move it in very small increments.

Then I tried it with the flow meter valve wide open, just using the needle valve. Similar to above, a little touchy but could get it done. Did seem to drift a little bit up and down over the course of a few minutes, but always seemed to settle back in pretty close to where it was set. 

After a bit more trial and error, here is what I found to be best. Close flow meter valve completely, then back out about 1 full turn. Use needle valve to adjust flow just past max (50+ cc/min on the RMA 151). Then use flow meter valve to fine tune. Every time I did it that way, flow stays rock steady (ball not bouncing at all, solid).

Now this does not preclude any other issues you might be having, just giving you an idea of what works best on my system.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Video update (spoiler alert, still not great):


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Because both the needle valve and the flow meter exhibit the same behavior, its reasonable to assume that they are both operational.

This appears to be like a leak in a dam. Increases in pressure will cause a linear increase in flow from a hole, until the pressure is increased so much that the dam breaks and there is a massive increase in flow.

This is why I suggested it might be one or both of the check valves. You can test them individually to see that they take some pressure to open. Two of them in series might be creating this peculiar situation. 

Even if it is not the check valves, standard test procedure would be to remove them from the system to at lease see if they are the cause. (Is it possible one is reversed or defective?)


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Out for a few hours, but did remove the brass check valve earlier in my testing. Late tonight I will put it back on and remove the other one. 

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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Add a mini regulator such as this.
https://m.grainger.com/mobile/product/GROZ-1-4-General-Purpose-Air-Regulator-36JN41?breadcrumbCatId=8311&fc=MWP2IDP2PCP

Add between solenoid and flow meter.
Should also eliminate the odds of EOTD.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Void


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Brass check valve was already removed prior to that video, it's not the issue. Will be bypassing the other one later tonight. And will look into that part as well. 

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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Let's start with the bad. Switched out the check valves and am still having the same issue with the CO2. I've now kinda run out of what I'd consider all the likely options thrown out here and just don't know where to go, it's insanely frustrating at this point. I also considered the following from MG:



> Add a mini regulator such as this.
> https://m.grainger.com/mobile/produc...fc=MWP2IDP2PCP
> 
> Add between solenoid and flow meter.
> Should also eliminate the odds of EOTD.


Much as I did with the flowmeter and needle valve I held those two constant and very slowly adjusted working pressure. Same results, so I can reasonably say that pressure variations from the regulator are not the issue. I hate to do it, but at this point I think the next best idea I can think of it to buy some sort of alternate diffusing system and bypass the Griggs reactor to see if that does anything. At that point if that doesn't fix it it leaves the unlikely scenario that the factory bought industrial meter was defective. 

For now I can hold stead between 20-25cc/min, and as long as I can without risking fish I suppose that's good for now. 

That brings us to fish, did get this message from Wet Spot:



> I’ve just received word that we’re down to a two of our Goyder River rainbows. The concern is that one of them has a small deformity on the tip of it’s dorsal, as small lump. From the sounds of it, it doesn’t sound as though it is parasitic, nor anything outright concerning. We still wanted to give you the this knowledge before finalizing the rest of the order, as we try to only send our best fish.
> 
> Please let us know if you would rather replace the fish with something else, remove the item from the order, or are still willing to take him/her.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


As much as I loved those fish I didn't want to risk it, so I had them swapped out for Red Laser Rainbows instead. 

I haven't had a chance yet to do a video, and hopefully will tomorrow night, but for now here is a recent picture of the tank as we move towards fish:










As I ready for fish I have my schedule down to start, though I think I'll lay off the veggie wafers while algae is plentiful.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Algae issues aside, WOW thats a lot of plant growth! How many days ago was this bare substrate?


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Immortal1 said:


> Algae issues aside, WOW thats a lot of plant growth! How many days ago was this bare substrate?


Looks like the initial planting was January 3rd, and with that picture being January 27, here is a back to back look at the tank on initial planting and 3.5 weeks later:


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

@Rush3737 I just had the chance to watch the video. One question ( may be silly one) is for mounting the flow meter, did you really crank down on the screws? I found that for one of mine that I cranked too hard on the screws, it actually caused some leaking and inaccurate jumping (if I recall correctly) similar to what you describe.

One thing you can try if you still have all the jumping of the cc/min is loosen the mounting screws and see what happens then. Just another thought!

Also- agree with @Immortal1, very nice on the new growth, and with some time I am sure you will dial the algae issues out. Still a very new and young tank!


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Grobbins, if the solution is that stupid and simple you'll be hard pressed to find someone as happy and infuriated as me. 

That said I'll of course check it out when I get home and loosen the screws going into the unit a bit.

Edit: And with the setup as it is now chances are I will hard mount the flowmeter to the rest of the setup once everything is working correctly.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

@Rush3737 - for 3.5 weeks I am impressed! Guess your tank really does like plants from @Maryland Guppy


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> I hate to do it, but at this point I think the next best idea I can think of it to buy some sort of alternate diffusing system and bypass the Griggs reactor to see if that does anything. At that point if that doesn't fix it it leaves the unlikely scenario that the factory bought industrial meter was defective.


Another "outside of box" solution would be to get a pH controller and not worry too much about fluctuations in flow.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

So the fun continues, but this story has a happy ending. The Red Lasers I wanted to swap in for the potentially sick Trifasciata were only females left. However with looking over a replacement I see Snakeskins just arrived back in stock.

So we're down to 4 pair Rainbows, nixed the Cardinal Tetras and added a school of Snakeskin Barbs. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

At least you have a fully planted tank in a short amount of time.
Change and alter species over time or as you see fit.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> So the fun continues, but this story has a happy ending. The Red Lasers I wanted to swap in for the potentially sick Trifasciata were only females left. However with looking over a replacement I see Snakeskins just arrived back in stock.
> 
> So we're down to 4 pair Rainbows, nixed the Cardinal Tetras and added a school of Snakeskin Barbs.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Exciting that your Snakeskin Barbs will be part of the tank. Excited to see them in your tank!


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Maryland Guppy said:


> At least you have a fully planted tank in a short amount of time.
> Change and alter species over time or as you see fit.


Indeed, you provided a perfect example of what it means to plant heavily from the start. And with that, problems and issues aside, I took what you gave and showed that if you throw everything the plants needs at them you will see a dense tank pretty quickly. Fish are now the immediate concern, but once they are settled I can give more thought to what plants I might want to add or change out. AR is always a favorite of mine and some general diversity in color is needed. For how good growth is in general there is a color affecting combo going on in that the grouping on the left stayed very muted in color, the red crypts have not taken off, and the red stems on the right aren't as fast growing as the items around them. In any case THANK YOU again for making such a cool tank possible in less than a month!
@Grobbins48 - It was funny, I convinced myself it wasn't a big deal that the Snakeskins went out of stock and made piece with it and was looking forward to new fish. Then the Trifasciata had their issue, but no big deal, gf loved the Red Lasers as well. Then they were female only I looked and looked while I could at work this morning at the dozen+ other Rainbowfish species available and just nothing hooked me like those did. I kinda said screw it and did a control+F search of the page and sure enough the Snakeskins had just been added back on Friday and were still in blue, meaning you had to call to see if they were stabilized enough to be shipped yet. So I did, and they were, so I figured it was meant to be and made the changes.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> Looks like the initial planting was January 3rd, and with that picture being January 27, here is a back to back look at the tank on initial planting and 3.5 weeks later:


Shazam!


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Rush3737 said:


> For how good growth is in general there is a color affecting combo going on in that the grouping on the left stayed very muted in color, the red crypts have not taken off, and the red stems on the right aren't as fast growing as the items around them.


I'm not making a house call to PA with the PAR meter, but! >

That is the next thing I would consider.
Ammannia senegalensis should @ least show a maroon color.
Shaded in a soil based tank it will grow completely green.
Getting up higher in the water column it should have rose/pink tops of leaves.
Poly should also get color closer to the light, orange/yellow tips.

All plants in the pics look like the same shade of green, I'd look @ PAR next


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Well luckily I'll have better answers at some point. I'll be borrowing a PAR meter at some point and checking out the setup. That said if the values are near Grobbins, which they should be, I should be firmly in the high light category. Could be the next great unsolved mystery. 

Speaking of which, tried backing out the mounting screws a bit and that has unfortunately not solved my issue. Next test is the Griggs reactor. I ordered a NilocG atomizer as I can kinda just sup it in very easily in place of the Griggs. If that shows the same effects then I've finally eliminated every possible variable EXCEPT the flowmeter itself and will see where I can get trying for a replacement on that.


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## moonwasaloon (May 24, 2011)

There is a lot to read here.

What lights did you end up using?


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

moonwasaloon said:


> There is a lot to read here.
> 
> 
> 
> What lights did you end up using?


Two Beamswork fixtures, DS FSPEC and DA 120 6500k.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Well, fish are in and getting used to their new home. 

Lights are off, so pictures are coming out in a quality not even worth posting. That said everyone seems to be doing alright out of the gate with the exception of one Rainbow who is in the front right corner trying to eat his way through the glass, seemingly. 

After a few minutes all the other fish I'd expect to see I could see. The shrimp are TINY and holy cow I was not prepared for how quick they are. Honestly knowing as little as I do about them the fact that they all made it into the tank is a miracle. I did spot one of them since. The loaches are similarly hiding amongst the plants and I will catch sight of one here or there. The Otos are seen sucking along or swimming about every now and again as well. 

Tomorrow with the lights on I'll finally make a video showcasing them and the plants, but in the meanwhile I have to say one plant that has really become a favorite since getting established in the Limnophila Aromatica Mini. Love the leaf pattern on it and how it "stars" out in a way. And is a great midground height. Also the Blyxa has done incredibly well, fighting off all the algae naturally and becoming the big ploofy bush I hoped. Between that and the hydrocotyle I have two plants that I probably would have struggled with much more in the old tank doing great here.

Edit: All 8 Rainbows now swimming mid-tank. 

Also, I REALLY hope this continues for when I make the video tomorrow because it's just about the coolest thing I could have hoped to see in this tank and I never even thought about it. All or most of the loaches, who happen to have very similar patterns to the barbs were just out seemingly schooling with them.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Turned on the light tonight for a few minutes to feed and snapped a few quick photos. 

First one here you can see a couple of the Rainbowfish as well as the Pearl Gourami facing you on the right. 










This shot here lets you see one of the Otos as well as one of the loaches.










And finally here is a nice look at the barbs together.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Exciting stuff there!

Good luck with all the new little ones.

Tank is getting better and better all the time!


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Rush3737 said:


> First one here you can see a couple of the Rainbowfish as well as the Pearl Gourami facing you on the right.


I'll have to send over the lease agreement on the Rainbow's in the rare instance there is a recall !!! >>>

Pearl Gouramis are a wonderful phish, get large and require some room though.


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## CMcNam (Dec 5, 2018)

Great progress! Those snakeskin barbs are very cool looking, don't think I've seen them before.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Fish are looking great, and I agree, those Snakeskin Barbs are pretty sweet!

Keep up the great work with the tank!


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> Another "outside of box" solution would be to get a pH controller and not worry too much about fluctuations in flow.


I haaaaate the idea of adding yet another piece of equipment and expense to things, but given that I'm leaving for a few days on Sunday I've ordered a Milwaukee unit for some piece of mind. My thought process is as follows:

NilocG atomized inline diffuser arrives Thursday, so Thursday night I'll install that and see if it solves the problem. This also gives me the opportunity to easily put the 2nd check valve back on. If that solves things then I just return the pH controller. If it doesn't work then Friday when the pH controller arrives I move all the hoses back to the Greggs reactor, hook up the pH controller, and return the diffuser. 

Going into vacation I either have a steady flow or a kill-switch.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Fish are looking great - really like those snake skin barbs! Didn't know they existed.
The Milwaukee does offer some piece of mind as you stated. I have one on each of my co2 tanks. In my case, I have enough precision with my regulator and delivery setup to hit a specific ph every day without needing the controller. But, that precision has taken a long time to achieve AND that controller has likely saved my fish more than enough times to pay for itself.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Immortal1 said:


> Fish are looking great - really like those snake skin barbs! Didn't know they existed.
> The Milwaukee does offer some piece of mind as you stated. I have one on each of my co2 tanks. In my case, I have enough precision with my regulator and delivery setup to hit a specific ph every day without needing the controller. But, that precision has taken a long time to achieve AND that controller has likely saved my fish more than enough times to pay for itself.


+1.

When you have a tank full of mature Bows (which takes a LONG time), the peace of mind from a controller is well worth it to me.

I also make small adjustments, and don't have to worry too much if I am just dropping another .05 more. Just makes CO2 much more set and forget.

But to each his own. Personally I wouldn't be without one.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

I'm gonna go ahead and just move to make this the new site header:


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## moonwasaloon (May 24, 2011)

Rush,

Where did you get your fish?


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

moonwasaloon said:


> Rush,
> 
> Where did you get your fish?


Wet Spot - Home


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## moonwasaloon (May 24, 2011)

Rush3737 said:


> Wet Spot - Home



Thanks! I was hoping it was somewhere local ( I live in Bensalem PA, work in Horsham, I got to QT for the Flea Market all the time)


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

moonwasaloon said:


> Thanks! I was hoping it was somewhere local ( I live in Bensalem PA, work in Horsham, I got to QT for the Flea Market all the time)


It's funny Q-mart is legendary and yet I live literally 2 minutes away and go there every few weeks for some steaks and not much else. That said if you're up there and you want any of the plants in my tank you're free to swing by and get some clippings to take. 

For local fish there is Rift to Reef in Hatfield that will be my go-to for any filler fish if something unforeseen happens or a species has to be removed from this tank. That said when it comes to completely stocking a big tank no local place I've seen will have the selection that Wet Spot does and so the shipping cost is worth it to me in that case.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Only a little CO2 talk at beginning and end, but mostly, finally, the fish and plant video:






---

Now onto my working theory on CO2 since I have the inline diffuser and it didn't solve my issue, and some more data. 

1. When I first installed the flow meter the tank, which had been going relatively well, only showed an output of 10cc/min on the meter.
2. All the issues above 25-30cc/min.
3. I dialed the meter back from the tipping point of 25cc/min to 15cc/min for today for the safety of the fish, and yet they still seemed to be needing O2 on my return home.
4. After installing the inline diffuser and running for only a short while at 20cc/min the fish again seemed to be favoring the side of the tank away from CO2 and needing O2.
5. At that rate there also seemed to be a heavy excess of bubbles. 

My theory as of now is that the flowmeter is poorly calibrated, with the seen scale of 0-50 actually being run between 0-25. Although I am not saying there is a simply x2 multiplier between what is seen and the actual flow I will use that going forward for simplicity. The tank was probably running at 20cc/min when the flowmeter was installed and showing half. The unit reached its "cap" at 25cc/min shown and thus naturally just took off above that point. A "shown" value of 20-25cc/min although should be on the low end of the range for a tank this size in actuality put out far too much CO2 for the fish. This could also be in part to the high efficiency of a Griggs reactor. 

I could be completely wrong on this, but with malfunctions from every other piece of equipment eliminated it HAS to be related to the actual flowmeter somehow and this makes sense to me.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Tank is ready for a trim! The mistake I made last year with my first MDGuppy plant dump was letting the fast growers crowd out the slower ones and then giving up on the "underperformers".

The slower growing plants tend to be more rewarding and take more time to get established, so don't be afraid to keep hacking back the fast growers and spending 90% of your time on the red plants.

What I do with my CO2... instead of changing the flow rate, I just change the amount of time its on. I have a morning period of a few hours, and an mid day period of 1.5 hours which I arrived at by doing pH tests every hour. After I turn off the CO2, I can still hear it sloshing in the Griggs reactor for at least an hour, so it is still being distributed. 

The CO2 turns off at 1:30 (pH 6.8) and by 6pm the pH has only risen to 7.2. Its easier to make slight adjustments to the on/off timer than it is to make adjustments to flow.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

What's your surface agitation like?

Curious as those Bows do seem to be stressed. 

Heavy surface agitation (oxygen) gives you more leeway with CO2. 

And I wouldn't be concerned about the actual number on the flow meter. What's important is relative flow. If things are best at 10 cc/min, matters little what the absolute value is.

How are you measuring your pH drop? Calibrated probe? Have good reading on degassed water? KH value? What is the peak pH drop? 

And I know you don't want to go this way, but a pH controller is a valuable tool. Especially when you have a tank full of mature Bows someday. Keeping CO2 high enough for optimum plant growth but low enough for the Bows to be comfortable is a pretty fine line. 

I look at it as a fail safe. Replacing a tank full of mature Bows is pretty much impossible.

P.S. I would not recommend controlling CO2 by timer as described above. Probably the most important thing we can control is CO2 injection. It pays to get it right, just ask Tom Barr. 

Many problems are attributed to ferts but could be the result of poor CO2. You want to get it to a level and keep it there throughout the lighting period. Big swings throughout the day can result in many issues, algae and poor dying lower growth being two of them. 

In my tank, there is a big difference between pH drop of 1.0 and pH drop of 1.3. Very noticeable. If plants look unhappy, or algae creeps up, the first thing I do is double check degassed value and pH drop. It is by far the most likely culprit. And if you don't have it right, all of the messing with ferts in the world is not going to help.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

@Greggz both outflows are pointing up at the surface and creating small waves at the surface as seen in a video someone here linked to a good while back. It's worth noting that when I left CO2 off for awhile or when I turned it down the fish returned to normal. So for today and tomorrow I'll be running a 8-10cc/min on my scale to be safe for now.

That said, everyone, let me make sure I understand a pH meter correctly and how it will help me. It arrives Friday and between that evening and Saturday evening I have to do everything to get ready for vacation as well as get the tank in order. Just want to make sure I have the main points correct here:

-CO2 will lower pH when injected, and by measuring that pH drop with other factors constant we can ascertain what the ppm CO2 in the tank is.
-Ideally we look for a pH drop of 1.0.
-The controller will have the ability to constantly monitor the pH and control my solenoid. For simplicity let's say my ungassed pH is 8.0. As a result between certain hours I can have it open the sol if pH is above 7.1 and close if it's below 6.9, and as a result hold near that 1pH drop.

All of that look to be what I'm aiming to setup? 
@ChrisX - Most of my trimming has been on the larger plants on the back, and thankfully with two lights I don't think the slow growers are being shaded out. The crypts are still there because I like them. The plants I've eliminated so far weren't just slow or doing poorly, I either didn't care too much for them or they had very similar tank mates I preferred and wanted to give more space to.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Rush3737 said:


> That said, everyone, let me make sure I understand a pH meter correctly and how it will help me.


Are you getting a monitor or a controller? A monitor simply displays current pH reading, a controller controls the CO2 solenoid. 



Rush3737 said:


> CO2 will lower pH when injected, and by measuring that pH drop with other factors constant we can ascertain what the ppm CO2 in the tank is.


Well, kind of. We don't ever really know the exact CO2 concentration, as it would take much more expensive equipment to do so. Like many things, we rely on a relative value. According to the pH/CO2 charts my CO2 is 150+ppm. Doubt that's true. 



Rush3737 said:


> -Ideally we look for a pH drop of 1.0.
> -The controller will have the ability to constantly monitor the pH and control my solenoid. For simplicity let's say my ungassed pH is 8.0. As a result between certain hours I can have it open the sol if pH is above 7.1 and close if it's below 6.9, and as a result hold near that 1pH drop.


Well, a 1.0 drop might be ideal for your tank, but I doubt it. My peak drop is 1.35, and many others with high tech tanks are somewhere between 1.2 and 1.4 drop. It involves some trial and error to find the sweet spot (without affecting fish!).

Getting your degassed reading right is very important. I leave a glass of water out overnight with a bubbler in it. It should also have some correlation to your KH level. 

I only know how to program the American Pinpoint, and not sure what controller (or monitor) you are getting?

And yes, the basic idea is to turn on/off the solenoid based on your input. For instance, in my tank my current degassed reading is 7.1 pH . Controller comes on 90 minutes before lights, and drives the pH down to 5.75. Once it reaches 5.75, it bounces around a range of 5.75 to 5.83 all day until the controller is turned off. 

The reason it uses a range is that if it were to try and keep it steady exactly at 5.75, it would be constantly toggling all day long. 

I also recommend using a drop checker as well. It seems redundant, but I like having a visual indicator in addition to the readings. If the color seems off, means I better have a close look at everything. 

And I know it seems like a lot of work, but really isn't once you get it dialed in. And IMO, getting CO2 right is at the top of the list. Gives you more leeway/room for error with everything else.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Thanks @Greggz for starters there currently is a drop checker in my tank and will remain there, at least until I would feel comfortable removing it. 

I got what seemed to be the general standard unit amongst most here, the Milwaukee MC122.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00I47XIX2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Once I return from vacation I'll see about slowly upping the count, but I think for now a 1.0 drop will get the plants some juice while not potentially harming the fish while I'm away and that's what I'll set it up for initially. I'll have a day to monitor the fish to make sure the 1.0 isn't too high but if most run above that then it should be good.

Edit:

Couple of random pictures I forgot to post. First is what all the bags that the fish came in floating, looks kinda silly, and the next is proof that as of yesterday at least the shrimp do exist.


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## [email protected] (Feb 1, 2019)

Hey, I was just joined the group. I was skimming your set up discussion. I live in NE Pa not to far from you guys. 

Where does everyone find info for this hobby. I have a 125 gallon reef tank and there are tons of reviews on equipment. 

I'm having trouble finding info on the best substrate, what lighting is good, what's bad, par, spectrum, etc. I dont know what lights are good for high lighting, medium, and low, etc. 

Do you have any advice, any good stores to check out?


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> Where does everyone find info for this hobby.
> I have a 125 gallon reef tank and there are tons of reviews on equipment.
> 
> I'm having trouble finding info on the best substrate, what lighting is good,
> ...


Welcome!

I'd recommend starting a journal for your tank on this site.
Decide on plants and phish and ask some questions.
You'll most likely get replies from many involved in this thread.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> Hey, I was just joined the group. I was skimming your set up discussion. I live in NE Pa not to far from you guys.
> 
> Where does everyone find info for this hobby. I have a 125 gallon reef tank and there are tons of reviews on equipment.
> 
> ...


I find searches here often help answer things or at least point me in the right direction. Just keep in mind that unless your question is, "should I coat my fish in ammonia prior to adding them to my tank?" then there are almost always going to be multiple opinions or right answers. Few things are an exact science.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Alright, couple of quick updates. Firstly the pH meter is calibrated, installed, and seems to be working effectively dropping pH from a degassed 8.0 to 6.9 with no notable change to the fish. I have seen the unit start and stop the solenoid so all seems to be going well there. 

Next up, thanks to @Greggz we have some preliminary PAR data. I don't know if before I leave for vacation I'll be able to do anything more substantial but I wanted to get some basic info out really quickly. Basically just put the meter in the middle at a deeper section that I could get it to settle and jostled lights around quickly. 

The two units I'm working with are the Beamswork DS FSPEC and the DA 120 6500k. Differences in colored LEDs but both units have 120 .5w LEDs so no difference between them, both about 63 PAR at substrate, doing about 110 PAR together.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Good to hear you got the Milwaukee up and running before leaving. As stated before, I have been running one of those (actually 2) for awhile. A 1.1 drop will keep your plants happy for now. Not sure what you used for a par meter, but 110 is a good amount of light - about what I have been running for awhile. Enjoy the little vacation


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Is that with or without glass lids for the PAR values? I'll be curious to see the full range of testing! But seems like you are right where you wanted to be.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Grobbins48 said:


> Is that with or without glass lids for the PAR values? I'll be curious to see the full range of testing! But seems like you are right where you wanted to be.


No lids on my tank, but the readings would take a slight hit from the glass brace that runs down the middle of my tank. And yeah, I'm happy with the levels, but it does open up a whole new mystery as to why many of the red plants aren't as colorful as they should be. 

This will be my last update before vacation, so first let me say THANK YOU to everyone who has helped make this look so good so quickly. The pH controller is working as expected and between the Otos who I always see munching away and everything else finally stabilized it seems algae is as little a problem now as it has ever been. Very little plants she any significant amounts and the glass is staying cleaner, longer, than ever before. Did a final trim tonight on the back right to give room for growth while I'm gone. Tomorrow morning is a water change as usual while I finalize packing. 

Haven't given the veggie wafers yet, but far and away I have to say all the fish LOVE the San Francisco Bay freeze dried blood worms. Gotta give them a shout out and recommendation as all my fish go bonkers for those.

Finally, as part of the final update, just for @Greggz some eye candy.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Rush3737 said:


> Finally, as part of the final update, just for @Greggz some eye candy.


Looks like a very nice grouping of Bows. You are really going to enjoy watching them grow out and mature. Colors look great now, but will get even better over time.

And very interesting on the PAR readings. I was expecting it be lower, as at that level, I would expect more color. Gotta think that one over. Not sure what exactly is going on there??


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

It's cold here and I don't like it. 

That aside the tank did quite well in my absence, with the one bang head against wall exception of course. Either the day before I came back or the day of (Saturday) the CO2 ran out. While this confirms a leak somewhere I am at a loss as to where. I've replaced pretty much every single part and piece at one point or another to eliminate so many options. Last ditch effort was to hard mount the flowmeter, but I fear that did not solve anything. I guess we'll find out when we see how long this tank lasts. I also pretty much took everything apart and rebuilt it with the regulator mounted in the normal position. On the plus side this morning I did spot one of the shrimp, which I understand will likely be the tanks canaries as far as water parameters are concerned and so I'm happy to confirm at least one is doing well, and frankly already seems to have made a pretty big jump in size. 



















As for the tank and plants, I took some photos prior to today's trim and water change. Yesterday evening I finally caught the Limnophila top leaves turned up with the really nice color. It was a favorite before but it becoming even more so now. The back right stems are growing out of control and the Hydrocotyle has again become a super thick carpet. Glass was mostly clean with only real algae problems on the back left stems. 




























And finally post water change and trim.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Well you already have half the battle won......................clearly plants are growing!! 

That's got to be the fastest I've seen an empty tank go to jungle so far.

Very well done. 

Only thing I would consider is getting a splash of color here and there. But all in all, you should be very happy, and really nice job on the journal.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Agree with Gregg - plants seem to be growing nicely! Your tank certainly looks better than mine did in the beginning. You want a chuckle, look at page 1 of my build thread.
As for the CO2 - if the Olson can maintain a consistent 20psi output, than I would say it is doing it's job. Remind me a gain how big your CO2 tank is? 5# or 10#
I have a 10# and it is feeding the wifes 40g and my 75g. I get a good 2+ months before the pressure starts to drop. Best I can do for a reference. 
Can't really tell, but it looks like the output of the Olson is fitted to the solenoid? Then it is fitted to the input on the flow meter? Just trying to think of places where you could have a major leak...


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## kgbudge (Feb 8, 2019)

Rainbows, ooooo ... I like.


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## Hendy8888 (Mar 6, 2008)

You may have done this already but use soapy water on each connection to test for co2 leaks. The leak will become very apparent with bubbles from the soap.

The tank is looking great, I absolutely love those Snakeskin barbs as well.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

IME, when green plants get close to 6500K leds, they impart a greenish hue to the light... like shining a light through green transparent film. The greenish tint could also be because of organics or algae in the water. I had that issue at one point which was cleared by a UV filter.

I'm not sure that the red plants aren't actually red, it may just be a trick of the light.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

@Greggz - Thanks, I'm lucky in that I had a previous very similar setup to get all the basics out of the way on, so that experience plus MGs huge plant startup is what really made it possible, along with no fish to start and probably going slightly heavy on CO2. Under closer examination today I noticed what looks like BBA or similar on some plants from the front center Staurogyne to the back left reddish plants. Basically all the stuff still not doing as great as the rest seems to show traces of it, so I think my goal over the next two weeks is going to actually be to take out anything with that and replace it, probably temporarily with other stuff already in the tank, but eventually with new plants with more color. 
@Immortal1 - It's CO2 tank to CGA 320 adapter, and then the Olsen connects via argon connector to the adapter. Out of the reg it goes sol, needle valve, hard tube into flow, barb out of flow, through two check valves (one brass one plastic), to the Griggs. And it's a 5# tank.
@Hendy8888 - I did a test on the prior configuration and will do one this week on this version. Thing is this is the exact issue I had with my old tank, could NEVER get the CO2 constantly running correctly and consistently. That said the pH controller has things stable, which is great, but I don't want to be buying CO2 every week or having algae blooms every time it runs out and I don't notice for a day or two. And yes, the Snakeskins are awesome!
@ChrisX - You may be right, but as I said to Greggz earlier many of those off color plants might soon be gone and new ones in their place. The red crypts are looking proper color, even with minimal growth, as is the Repens on the right, as well as the Limnophila now. 

Also, tonight I happened to spot 3 shrimp at one time, meaning they are seemingly surriving well, which is good.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Alright, I have a general idea for what I want to do about my BBA/Color issues, and made a purchase to facilitate it. 

Front center is Staurogyne repens, which has patches of BBA. They don't seem to grow much at all, but other than the BBA don't seem overly unhealthy. I'm going to pull them out, de-leaf any stems with minor issues, throw away and stems with major issues, and replant the remainder tightly clumped together so they don't take up much space since they aren't filling in an area at all. I will try propagating the Blyxa in order to fill the space freed up to the left of their current position. 

The red and green crypts are similar. Probably going to hack a few more leaves and move them forward since they definitely are too far back given their current height and lack of growth. Then the Pogostemon pumilus from the back left corner will move into the spot currently occupied by the crypts. It seems to have reached max height and I want something taller for the corner. 

Then is what will likely be the great purge. The Pogostemon stellatus which is back left of the Staurogyne looks thin and has algae issues, and is likely gone. The combination of plants in the back left that has had the color issues also shows algae after all this time and will at worst be gone, and at best be very much thinned and moved forward to the area of the Pogostemon stellatus. 

So then along the back, starting in that back left corner I've ordered a Madagascar Lace Plant to the right of which I'll plant a Echinodorus Kleiner Bar Sword. Then filling in to the front of those or in other vacated areas I will be planting some Alternanthera reineckii as well as a Dwarf Lily Plant.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> Then is what will likely be the great purge. The Pogostemon stellatus which is back left of the Staurogyne looks thin and has algae issues, and is likely gone. The combination of plants in the back left that has had the color issues also shows algae after all this time and will at worst be gone, and at best be very much thinned and moved forward to the area of the Pogostemon stellatus.


This is a stunning plant, I would try to keep if possible. 

You don't see it much in the hobby, but a problem plant can be planted in a dirt pot, either sitting in the tank or buried in the substrate (if you don't already have dirt).

Maybe an H202 dip, remove the worst leaves then replant? This is one of those species that I'm sure you will wish you had kept at some point.

I dont see any problems in your tank per se, probably just lots of nutrients and lots of plant mass inhibiting flow, which causes algae to build up.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> This is a stunning plant, I would try to keep if possible.
> 
> You don't see it much in the hobby, but a problem plant can be planted in a dirt pot, either sitting in the tank or buried in the substrate (if you don't already have dirt).
> 
> ...


I suppose it is worth a shot, though they'll also get replanted tightly to reduce footprint. I have to look what % my current H2O2 bottle is, but how % do you recommend for the final solution and how long should I keep the plants in there before rinsing? I've seen a lot of different ideas on this but never tried myself.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> I suppose it is worth a shot, though they'll also get replanted tightly to reduce footprint. I have to look what % my current H2O2 bottle is, but how % do you recommend for the final solution and how long should I keep the plants in there before rinsing? I've seen a lot of different ideas on this but never tried myself.


 I think 20% 3%H202 for five minutes is what most do.

Another thing you can do, if you are limited for space, is cut the bottom 2" off a plastic water bottle and use that as a small dirt pot that you can push into the substrate. Large enough for a couple stems.

Fill it with 1-1.5" of soil and cover it with sand. It might help the stem transition to your tank. MD Guppy uses soil in his tanks. BTW, I may do this myself to help along some of the stems I got from him.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Thanks @ChrisX I will experiment a bit, especially with the dips. Don't have soil or sand currently, but might try that as well if things really look bleak. 

Something I'll likely keep updated just here for now, but I have the following available for RAOK if anyone needs them:

ALL YOURS, JUST PAY SHIPPING:
NilocG Inline Diffuser w/ 5/8" water connections and 3/16" co2 connection.
Bubble Counter w/ 1/8" screw and 3/16" co2 connection.
The following solenoid: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0794XJGBF/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
The one I bought on the bay was going to take way too long to arrive, so got this one as well, and in the recent rebuild switched to the other one. It's heavy duty and works well, but will run hot to the touch if you keep it on for hours. 
Vials of powdered ammonia for fishless cycling. 
PLANTS - All these are ones growing healthy and with minimal to no algae. Keep in mind I don't have heat packs so I'd have to wait till another hot spell to ship:
Hydrocotyle cf. tripartita
Lobelia cardinalis
Limnophila sessiliflora
Limnophila aromatica mini
Bacopa monnieri
Clinopodium brownei


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Quite a sad start to the day this morning. Came down to find one of the Rainbows had jumped the tank. I have very limited time in the mornings but by my best quick judgement it was likely one of the Kamaka Rainbows. Suppose this speeds up the urgency of getting some trim around the top of the tank, although I think for this next water change at least I'll likely keep the level a little lower and buy myself some time.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Okay, time for a long overdue update, probably split into two parts. Right now the cold hard lighting and PAR data. After that the good and bad with the plants and fish over the past few weeks. 

Lights are BeamsWork DS FSPEC 48" and Beamswork DA 120 6500K 48. The data is broken into two parts, single fixture and both fixtures. The two units put out either equally or near enough that I didn't find it worth trying to do both separately. I tested in three areas: Near corner, middle third, and dead center, under the glass piece that runs the width of my tank. 

Single Fixture
Corner
18" - 55
12" - 77
6" - 155

Middle Third
18" - 46
12" - 89
6" - 186

Center
18" - 42
12" - 74
6" - 94

Both Fixtures Together
Corner
18" - 96
12" - 177
6" - 206 

Middle Third
18" - 119
12" - 164
6" - 242

Center
18" - 104
12" - 119
6" - 135

My overall impression is that the lights are definitely strong for the money, which is great. I think people can have at least medium light in a large tank with one cheap fixture and high light with two. 

My other major observation is the center glass has a bigger impact than expected, which is lessened at the lower depths as other lights angle in to help out.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Good to see some data.

I take it the substrate is 18"?

If so, the readings with both lights on is pretty well turbo charged at 100+ PAR. Even more important to get everything else right at those levels. 

Those numbers should be helpful to some others as well.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

On average the substrate is probably about 18" from top of tank. But the light sits about 2" above the tank, so these readings were at about 2" above substrate for me.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Fairly consistent with my reading on a similar setup. No glass lids for you, right? Made quite a difference when I did the readings with them removed.

Agree with Gregg- ensuring everything else is spot on becomes so critical at the 100+ range.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

No glass lids is correct, although that is looking likely to change, read on to the next update. 

Let's start with the ever fun subject of CO2. This front is mostly positive. As of yesterday it was still pumping out, the controller is an awesome tool, and I've ticked the CO2 up to 1.25pH drop with no ill effects on the fish, and I think I'll hold steady there for a good while. 

This brings us naturally to plants and algae. I moved all the reddish plants to the center with one exception, planted the new additions, removed some of the things I thought I would if they had algae problems, and tried dipping others. The end result is still some algae I have to deal with on the hardware, but plants are for the most part doing well. Even the crypts which got moved up front look like they will hopefully come through strong. I'll provide a better update on what plants are where hopefully tonight, but for now here is a shot of the tank as of yesterday:










Now onto the slightly less positive note, the fish. As noted earlier I had a Rainbow jump. Since then I've had another jumper, one found dead during the Seneye testing, and then as I went to take a count this morning one more that is MIA and likely dead as well. So I'm down to 4 Rainbows from 8. There is also one of the Pearls that has been swimming tilted, or sometimes nearly sideways. 

Water tests have come back normal regularly, and the loaches seem great. As of two days ago I spotted at least two shrimp at the same time as well. This leads me to believe water conditions are not the issue. The only aggression I have noticed in the tank comes from the aforementioned tilted gourami. It seems long run I may have to give them to a store if the one recovers from whatever ails him, or re-assess if he dies. From there I can look into possible re-stocking options. 

In either case I will be getting glass lids for the tank with the purpose of preventing jumping and cutting down PAR a little bit.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Sorry to hear about the fish loss. I've never kept Rainbows with Gourami's, so have no idea how they might interact.

Getting CO2 steady with a good drop should help make the plants happy. And for me, the CO2 controller is a necessary tool. 

And all in all, I think you should be very pleased. Tank is looking great, and I'm betting it only gets better from here.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

I think you will be happy with the lids. For a while I considered removing them on my tank, but decided the cons of lidless outweighed any pros. Just keep them clean and you should be good to go. Also, another pro for no lids is less weekly evaporation! I never top off my 55, just the weekly water change.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

When it comes to the lids, my problem now is finding ones that will fit given the unusual top of my tank. The standing 75g pair of lids does not seem to be wide enough to reach what is a narrow brim on this setup.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Rush3737 said:


> When it comes to the lids, my problem now is finding ones that will fit given the unusual top of my tank. The standing 75g pair of lids does not seem to be wide enough to reach what is a narrow brim on this setup.



If you would like, I could make you a set of custom lids similar to what I have on my tank. Cost of glass is pretty cheap. Cost of shipping shouldn't be that bad, but would have to figure out how to limit chance of breakage. Maybe a thin piece of wood on either side??


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Immortal1 said:


> If you would like, I could make you a set of custom lids similar to what I have on my tank. Cost of glass is pretty cheap. Cost of shipping shouldn't be that bad, but would have to figure out how to limit chance of breakage. Maybe a thin piece of wood on either side??


I appreciate the offer, but I think I may have a rather easy (and cheap) solution: 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/16-in-x-20-in-x-0938-in-Clear-Glass-91620/202091045

The rim sits a tad bit off the center glass, so on the back corner of each piece I'd have to glue on some sort of leveling nub, but otherwise this will result in a ~1.5" gap in the back, which should allow the things through that need to come through, and I can return to finding a substitute for the plastic strip at a later time.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Easy is good!! And your link will probably work just fine. The lids I made, probably a little over the top, were basically intended to just make it harder for a fish to successfully make it out of the tank. And, not block the lights. Lets face it, in your setup, the lights are just not very far above the top level of the tank. The fish are not going to make it past the lights. Add a glass strip to the front and a glass strip to the back and I would think you would have the tank pretty much jumper proofed.

Best of luck and let us know how it works out.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Lid update, bought some $2 knobs and got one of them on, along with the little bumper on the corner. Working well so far.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Well, will ya look at that. Pretty clever! When I did tank maintenance with strip lights I usually flipped one on top of the other. In your case that leaves the know very accessible and would seem pretty easy to remove the lid.

Now you just have to clean the factory glass brace a little better.....
I'M Kidding!!!!!


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> I appreciate the offer, but I think I may have a rather easy (and cheap) solution:
> 
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/16-in-x-20-in-x-0938-in-Clear-Glass-91620/202091045
> 
> The rim sits a tad bit off the center glass, so on the back corner of each piece I'd have to glue on some sort of leveling nub, but otherwise this will result in a ~1.5" gap in the back, which should allow the things through that need to come through, and I can return to finding a substitute for the plastic strip at a later time.


Cutting glass is quite easy if you decide you need a custom fit or want to build a hinge into the top.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Immortal1 said:


> Well, will ya look at that. Pretty clever! When I did tank maintenance with strip lights I usually flipped one on top of the other. In your case that leaves the know very accessible and would seem pretty easy to remove the lid.
> 
> Now you just have to clean the factory glass brace a little better.....
> I'M Kidding!!!!!


I'm hoping the knob holds up long term. Basically I found a knob with a little indent on the underside and then used a ton of superglue to attach them. Tank word aside what's more important is the two times a day I feed the fish (and mornings when I feed the plants), during which time I have to move a piece of glass. It would be a PITA to grab the glass and move it without anything, but now I can grab that knob and just slide to the right and then slide back. For maintenance I do the same and then move the lights all the way back on top of one another. 

@ChrisX - One of the reasons I went with these pieces is because they shouldn't need cutting IF the knobs continue to work. If they don't, then I will need to explore other options.

Edit:

Suppose I should update plants tonight, but for now, some fish update as well.

I'm definitely down to 4 Rainbows from 8, but only have discovered 3 dead fish. So either:
A. Fish is in tank and I can't find it. 
B. Fish flopped out behind the stand. 
C. Fish flopped out in front and a cat ate it. 

As the area hasn't had a stench recently, I'm hoping B is not the case. C is possible, but the two I found outside the tank flopped out overnight, and they were there in the morning for me to collect even though the cats are up before me. Tonight I think I'll do a more thorough inspection through the forest that is hydrocotyle and perhaps one or two other places. 

Starting out I had 1M/1F of each:
Boesemani Rainbow
Lake Tebera (Yellow) Rainbow
Kamaka Rainbow
Turquoise Rainbow

My male Boesemani and Turquoise are still there. Yellow male is definitely gone. The Kamakas and female Turquoise were similar enough I'll have to work more to determine who is still around.

Saw a shrimp yesterday, still have recently spotted 3-4 ottos and loaches at a time, and 15ct on barbs, plus both Pearls are still there, with tilty actually looking a bit better, though still being an ass at times.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Alright, here it is, the big one. Watch your bandwidth, there are pictures ahead. 

Let's start with just a general look at the tank:










And now a look at where everything is as it stands now, along with today's addition of a Red Tiger Lotus. 



















A Hygrophila polysperma
B Nypmhaea zenkeri
C Ludwigia repens
D Lobelia cardinalis
E Limnophila aromatica mini
F Clinopodium brownei
G Blyxa japonica
H Ranunculus inundatus
I Echinodorus 'Kleiner Bar'
J Crytocoryne undulata
K Bacopa monnieri
L Pogostemon erectus
M Hydrocoytle leucocephala
N Aponogeton madagascariensis
O Hydrocotyle cf. tripartita
P Ammania senegalensis
Q Pogostemon pumilus
R Alternanthera reineckii roseafolia
S Cryptocoryne lucens

A really grows, and twice now I've really cut it back and am trying to get it to stay vertical in the corner. E has taken off great, with great under leaf color, just trimmed that tonight as well. D would probably spready great if I gave it more room. Honestly at this point I have too many plants doing well enough that there is just not enough room for everything. G is also going great and has fully bushed up. F gets lost if I don't cut back A a lot. L is okay, but I eliminated half of it tonight to plant B, which is tiny right now but should add some needed red to that space over time. H is spreading like crazy. Between that, G, and O, I frankly have 3 carpets I'd be more than happy to see over the whole tank. K grows great, but tends to get uprooted and I'm having a hell of a time keeping especially new plantings down as I attempt to widen it as it's a great "fence" to hide the heater. I worrid so much about J and S, but now S is actually 3 small plants looking good and J is 1 plant really coming into its own. C looks healthy in its new home, just not growing much. O is a [censored][censored][censored][censored]ing beast, and have pictures later to show just how thick that is. I and N are new additions from last week. Q got moved over from the corner and P, which was a potpourri of 4 plants got thinned and trimmed to 1 and planted around I. 

Here is a closeup of the Blyxa:










The crypts:










The Red Tiger Lotus:










The hydrocotyle:



















Okay, so I think that brings us up to date on plants, let's talk about fish. So I stopped at the one really nice LFS on my way home today and got talked into a 1M/2F combo of Red Laser Rainbowfish to replace my losses. Frankly I paid WAAAAAY too much for them, but I looked at it as supporting a great business. I also got 4 more amino shrimp and some liquid propel iron to hopefully strengthen the red in the plants that have it. 

Stocking is now as follows:
10 Amano*
5 Loaches*
6 Otos*
15 Snakeskin Barbs
2 Pearl Gourami
*assumed numbers

As for the Rainbows, for sure:
3x Red Laser (1M/2F)
1x Male Boesemani
1x Male Turquoise
2x combination of F Boes, F Turquoise, M/F Kamaka. I'm hoping @Greggz can help on that last part. 

And for that, some fish pictures. 





































As for the Pearl situation, his favorite target right now is definitely the male Boese. I *really* like the Pearls, but due to him they may be on the way out rather soon.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Embarking on a very adventurous test today. My CO2 was again about to run out, again well before it should, and I thought back to all the things I've tested and the only thing that really doesn't seem to work as it should is the flowmeter, be by its own fault or the fault up or down line. And with no leaks I was able to detect to be sure I leave it as my prime suspect. So I eliminated the flowmeter for now.

For those keeping track at home, I also don't have a bubble counter. I now have no visual check on how much CO2 is going into the tank. 

So how is that going to work? For one, I opened up the flowmeter while still connected and dialed in the needle valve to run a little hot. Then I left the regulator and needle valve untouched when I swapped the tank, leaving the settings the same. This is where some visual/audio cues and the controller comes into play. I know if a large excess of CO2 is heading in because I will hear extra noise inside the Griggs reactor and see bubbles start coming out of the spray bar. Assuming neither of those things happen, and the pH drops in the time it normally would, I figure I'm good. I turn on CO2 two hours before lights, and my target rate is a pH drop in 1.5 hours after starting, but anywhere from 1-2 hours and I don't think it'll have any adverse effects on the fish, though they will be monitored.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Rush3737 said:


> Embarking on a very adventurous test today. My CO2 was again about to run out, again well before it should, and I thought back to all the things I've tested and the only thing that really doesn't seem to work as it should is the flowmeter, be by its own fault or the fault up or down line. And with no leaks I was able to detect to be sure I leave it as my prime suspect. So I eliminated the flowmeter for now.
> 
> For those keeping track at home, I also don't have a bubble counter. I now have no visual check on how much CO2 is going into the tank.
> 
> So how is that going to work? For one, I opened up the flowmeter while still connected and dialed in the needle valve to run a little hot. Then I left the regulator and needle valve untouched when I swapped the tank, leaving the settings the same. This is where some visual/audio cues and the controller comes into play. I know if a large excess of CO2 is heading in because I will hear extra noise inside the Griggs reactor and see bubbles start coming out of the spray bar. Assuming neither of those things happen, and the pH drops in the time it normally would, I figure I'm good. I turn on CO2 two hours before lights, and my target rate is a pH drop in 1.5 hours after starting, but anywhere from 1-2 hours and I don't think it'll have any adverse effects on the fish, though they will be monitored.


Sounds like you are headed in the right direction with the co2. You have learned the various little things that make a difference (sounds, ph drop rate, etc). In my system, I have gotten to the point where the ph controller is being used more to show ph in the tank as opposed to controlling the ph. I know where the pressure should be, where the needle valve needs to be, and how the reactor will sound when it has a bit too much. 

I suspect you will be just fine with your co2 setup. Will be interesting how long your tank will last assuming nothing is changed except the flow meter


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Another of the Rainbows dead tonight, it's not the male Turquoise, but it was either the female or one of the Kamakas that remained. Schedule is tight tomorrow night, but the Pearls are getting donated. Hopefully I can make the trip to the good LFS before they close at 7pm, otherwise they're getting punished and going to Pets Plus. 

Still have the male Boesemani, male Turquoise, the 1m/2f Red Lasers (who are showing cool colors earlier than expected), and 1 unsure (either f Turquoise of a Kamaka).

Edit: Being down the two biggest fish after donation, and down to 6 Rainbows from 8, I might get a small school of top-level schoolers since the Snakeskins tend to stay low and can hide at times as well.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Sorry to hear about the additional loss :-(


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

I should have taken action sooner, it wasn't a guess, I regularly saw the Pearl causing problems and let it go too long. After my last post I returned to see him after his regular target, the male Turquoise and said screw it and shipped them off to Pets Plus. It's funny, the first one was easy. Only net these guys have seen just collects leaf debris, could have easily had any Pearl or Rainbow I wanted. Getting the second Pearl... that was not at all fun. I have an hour of brush clearing and aquascaping to do tomorrow.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Alright, thanks to Greggz I now have a better idea of the Rainbowfish currently in the tank:

1M/1F Boesemani
1M Kamaka
1M/2F Red Lasers

Decided for forego the other fish and use this opportunity for another shipment to replace the Rainbows and the Pearls and really make this a Rainbow tank.

1F Kamaka (to complete pair)
1M/1F Goyder River
1M/1F Turquoise Rainbow 
1M/1F Yellow Rainbow 

If all goes according to plan they'll be in Tuesday. 

As far as plants, need to do an update at some point. Main points is that the sword seemed to struggle at first but I believe is rebounding now. The lace plant has this runner thing that won't stop getting longer, and I really need to investigate that. It runs up to the talk and across most of the tank. The AR doesn't seem as impressive as I remember but is stable. 

The real recent stars are the Red Tiger Lotus which is coming in quickly and starting to fill in and color the space exactly as I had hoped, and the now middle crypt which is really looking good in that space. I really need to trim away some Hydrocotyle from that and elsewhere.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Sounds like some great additions !


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Immortal1 said:


> Sounds like some great additions !


Thanks, I considered getting some new guys, and even though the Kamakas and Turquoise are so close people seemed really high on the Turquoise and so I want to get some to maturity and I think they'll look great side by side. Yellows really stood out and I'll be very happy to have them back. And the Goyder Rivers weren't available last time so very happy they are in stock now.

Bump:


Immortal1 said:


> Sounds like some great additions !


Thanks, I considered getting some new guys, and even though the Kamakas and Turquoise are so close people seemed really high on the Turquoise and so I want to get some to maturity and I think they'll look great side by side. Yellows really stood out and I'll be very happy to have them back. And the Goyder Rivers weren't available last time so very happy they are in stock now.


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## DavidBevis (Mar 7, 2019)

And you've convinced me, I'm going to go through with my plan and pick up a 10 or 15 gallon this weekend to try my first planted tank. I absolutely love your tank!


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

DavidBevis said:


> And you've convinced me, I'm going to go through with my plan and pick up a 10 or 15 gallon this weekend to try my first planted tank. I absolutely love your tank!


That's awesome, thanks! Once you see some of the even crazier tanks on here you'll have a whole room full of them! 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

New fish went in today, all healthy thus far. 

So now it's a pair each of Kamaka, Turquoise, Yellow, Goyder River, Boesemani, and three Red Laser. 

You can also see the Red Tiger Lotus emerging and being absolutely awesome. Bar none one of the most immediate and constantly awesome growths I've ever seen from a new plant.


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## tater12 (Mar 8, 2019)

Rush3737 said:


> I should have taken action sooner, it wasn't a guess, I regularly saw the Pearl causing problems and let it go too long. After my last post I returned to see him after his regular target, the male Turquoise and said screw it and shipped them off to Pets Plus. It's funny, the first one was easy. Only net these guys have seen just collects leaf debris, could have easily had any Pearl or Rainbow I wanted. Getting the second Pearl... that was not at all fun. I have an hour of brush clearing and aquascaping to do tomorrow.




My pearl is being a jerk too has the whole tank on edge, might have to give him away since he’s the only one who’s aggressive sucks I liked his colors.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Couple of cool notes from this picture. Along with the red crype looking super awesome the super tiny green crypts I planted up front are really starting to take off. 

In the picture you'll see a blurry shrimp on the right who wasn't being bothered at all by the loaches. Shortly after this picture came the really exciting news, I spotted all 5 loaches at the same time, a very rare treat. The fact that at least one shrimp is alive (frankly all 10 could be, no clue where they are in this tank 99% of the time), and all 5 loaches are healthy back up my theory that the fish deaths were not at all related to tank parameters.


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## moonwasaloon (May 24, 2011)

Weird regarding the Pearls, i have two in my 55, 1 male/1 female, they seem to stick together and not bother anything else.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

moonwasaloon said:


> Weird regarding the Pearls, i have two in my 55, 1 male/1 female, they seem to stick together and not bother anything else.


In my old 75 I never noticed aggression from them, and really do like them, but it's been much better since. 

I'm long overdue for a proper update, but I will say after about a week without the Pearls all the fish have become more active and sociable, especially the Rainbowfish. And since the restock there was unfortunately one Rainbow and one barb that died, but nothing out of the ordinary that seemed to cause it, everyone seems quite happy with their surroundings now.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Rush3737 said:


> I'm long overdue for a proper update


Yep, you sure are. I have been wondering how things are going along for you now.

Look forward to seeing what's new.


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## moonwasaloon (May 24, 2011)

So am I, sometimes its so much work just to post here. I started an instagram for my fish photos.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Alright, so let's get an update on things. For my CO2 issues I still haven't figured out why I go through CO2 faster than I should, I'd say on average a tank lasts two weeks. Few days ago I broke down and bought a 2nd tank that just arrived today. The CO2 controller works great and at least now it won't be a huge deal when one kicks, I can quickly swap out and casually get the other refilled. 

I just mixed my final bottles from my initial supply of ferts and have to start looking into a custom mix if I want to try that going forward. 

As for plants, some good, some bad, some change:










Let's start with the Hydrocotyle. This past Sunday I kid you not, I ripped out a basketball sized chunk of it. It grew to half the height of the tank on the left side in places and kept trying to invade other areas. I quickly decided that a trim wouldn't do, pulled it out and replanted what you see in the picture. One I pulled that out I realized I had more Ludwigia Repens than I thought, and ended up pulling the Madagascar Lace that I planted and putting 10-12 stems in that area. The crypts... man, everyone who said hold out for them was right. They look great and make great center pieces now, and I love the Tiger Lotus coming up behind them and maintain no plant has ever instantly grabbed hold like the Tiger Lotus. I've trimmed 12+ leaves that have made water surface already. The Blyxa, after spreading so thick and nice started coming up in bunches two weeks or so ago with the roots seemingly gone. Very surprising, but I figured I'd see if the Ranunculus inundatus can spread more into that area. The Lobelia leaves started getting really small and thin, and I likely need a good re-plant on them along with the Limnophila. 

As for fish, here is a bunch of them:










Rainbows always come to the glass when we walk by and are a really sociable fish, glad I got talked into them. Snakeskins are more reserved and tend to stay towards cover, but I love watching them as well. The Burmese Border Loaches are awesome and it's fun watching them along the bottom. Ottos are typical and still seem to love munching plant to plant. Still some large snails in the tank but the loaches seem to do a good job keep any additions to the population in check. Now with the Hydrocotyle thinned and other plants thicker at the top I can usually look around and spot a shrimp or two pretty easily. Doubt the full number is still in there but they haven't been wiped out by the loaches either.


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## Ryan.Waite (Jun 20, 2019)

Awesome looking tank! I'm fixing to start a 75 gallon myself.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

I am also working on a 75 gallon densely planted. How many plants would you recommend for that? Also, where is a cheap place to buy plants? I was planning on just getting some anubias, java fern and java moss and propagating whenever I could, but that would take FOREVER, and I am not exactly the most patient person:wink2:


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

I don't know if such a thing exists near you but the prices in my local aquatic plant association auctions are generally dirt cheap. Especially for common stuff...


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Can you buy stuff online from them?


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## zmartin (May 1, 2018)

Hi Rush3737 was looking for something to read last night and picked your thread: read from beginning to end. 

Tank looks great. Really enjoyed it and while it’s been a challenge for you I appreciated all the CO2 discussion. I have a Dwyer flow meter in a box somewhere and have been meaning to set it up.

Sorry to hear about the rainbow losses - those gouramis have something to answer for.

Was envious of living in the states with the prices you were paying / plants provided by forum members.

Look forward to following further.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Long time no post, and sorry, but it's not a positive update. 

When I had my last 75g planted tank a move is what prompted breaking everything down and moving on, but what made that decision easy was that despite any amount of time, money, or effort I could not, for the life of me, get the CO2 part of the equation to work as it should. 

Unfortunately that has happened again. I tried as best I could, and everyone here was fantastic and helpful, but at the end of the day I just could not master things. Over time I went from irritated to angry to depressed about it and eventually let the tank go "low-tech" as I just gave up on the CO2. 

The good news is a good number of fish, some of which have developed into some beautiful rainbows have survived and done well. The bad news is today after a loooong overdue cleaning of my filters one of the seals went on the one and by the time I caught it I had water damage on the bottom of my stand and seeping out over the floors. 

I know at this point I don't have the heart to get everything back up and running well so I'm throwing in the white flag. That said I very much want these fish to have a good new home if possible, a nice assortment of Rainbows, Burmese Border Loaches, and Snakeskin Barbs. If I can't find anyone who can move on them short term I will donate them to a local LFS. The fish wouldn't still be alive and well today if it wasn't for this place and anyone who wants them can have them freely. 

After the fish are out I'll of course look to sell off the equipment, and will do liberally to anyone here, especially for local pickup or easily shipped items. 

I have one good filter, plenty of media, two good 4' lights, all the CO2 stuff including a controller and extra CO2 tank, homemade reactor, 75g tank and stand, and plenty of other odds and ends. 

First order is the fish though, hoping someone has a home ready for them.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Sorry to hear things didn't go well. 

The tank had a lot of promise when you got started. 

Hopefully we'll see you back again someday.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Bummer...

There are at least a couple good LFS around here. I'd take them off your hands but just have absolutely no room left in what would be an undersized tank for those fish even when empty.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

Greggz said:


> Sorry to hear things didn't go well.
> 
> The tank had a lot of promise when you got started.
> 
> Hopefully we'll see you back again someday.


I can safely say that this time I'll be staying out. I'm not adverse to a challenge, but at some point when you pour resources into something and it never goes right the frustration outweighs the reward. Without the high-tech circuit working as I'd like the tank isn't what I'd like it to be, and anymore I look at it more with contempt than joy. After the last tank I didn't think I'd get back in, but now I've repeated the steps and gone even further in my attempts to make it work but came out with the same results. 

I will say the tank was absolutely stellar for a few months when all was going right.


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