# Easier macro dosing



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Pondering some solutions for easier macro dosing... The water pump dosing works great, but still, trying to simplify things further...

Has anyone ever thought of using a little (maybe clear plastic) container, filled with say a weekly dose of macros and water, placed into the tank, with a little hole (maybe adjustable opening) through which the higher concentrated solution will diffuse into the tank, over the period of a week or two or whatever?

Possible downfalls of that...

Adjustment - could be dependent on surrounding water circulation, that is, in an area of higher current the nutrients would get sucked out of the container quicker.

Different solubility of chemicals - maybe KH2PO4 dissolves much easier than K2SO4, so you would have spikes of different nutrients throughout the dosing period?

Maybe one could use glass tubes, like used for testing, fill them up with the powder, and use a stopper with a hole, and watch the powder disappear over time... hmmmm... gotta play with that...


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## darkfury18 (Apr 1, 2006)

hrmm... interesting


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Yeah, interesting.

Spypet, why did you post a picture of the Aquadose container? That isn't really new, is it? And has nothing to do with what I am talking about.

I am talking about a little test tube or something similar.


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## dougiefresh (Sep 5, 2006)

Good idea. This is similiar to how they dose chlorine/bromine in hot tubs. A simple plastic container that floats around and under it and you can dial in your dosage by number of holes.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

If you dissolve the ferts in water, and use that in the "leaky" container for dosing, the incoming water will dilute the remaining water in the container, so the dosage per day will steadily drop asymptotically to zero. If you use solid ferts in the bottle.......????

If you put a rubber bladder inside the rigid bottle, with slightly pressurized air between the bladder and the inside of the bottle, the liquid ferts might be expelled at a near constant rate. And, if I were the son of Warren Buffett (in good standing) I could afford to use all ADA equipment.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

What I was thinking was not to dissolve them (they won't, it's too much salt and not enough water), but to just let them settle down on the bottom of the vial. Therefore, you would have a near saturated solution in the container, which is just slowly diluted by tank water.

I imagine you could use bigger vials for KNO3 and K2SO4, and thinner ones for KH2PO4. Say you use 5 tsp of KNO3 for 2 weeks of dosing, you'd fill a thicker glass half of that, fill with water, let it settle, plug it shut and attach with rubber sucker in tank. Say you use 1/2 tsp of KH2PO4, you find a really thin vial, and do the same. Size of the diffusion hole would be the main regulation mechanism.


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## g8wayg8r (Dec 24, 2003)

Is this the general idea?

Get a ketchup bottle with the witch-hat cap; drill a small hole in the bottom; fill it with your solution; invert it where the tip of bottle is in a stream from your spray bar; low pressure sucks out small amounts of your solution continuously. If it is, you could alway get a bottle with and rubber tube that has a nipple on the end (like the needle used to fill basketballs, etc). That could give you more flexabiltiy in mounting location.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Not quite... I am hoping that the concentrated solution dilutes in the surrounding water passively, without any help from spraybars.

Here is what I did last night, to get the testing started. I used two 3ml oral syringes, and one 0.5ml syringe. (With the markings on the syringe it is easier to keep track of changes).

I put 1/4 tsp of KNO3 in one and 1/4 tsp of K2SO4 into the other large syringe. That filled about 1.5 ml, then I added water which reduced the salt to 1 ml.

So now I have two syringes filled with 1 ml powder and 1 ml water. Similar for the smaller syringe which contains (less) KH2PO4 powder.

I placed all 3 syringes in my tank, with the opening pointing up. Now it is sitting back and monitoring how fast the fertilizer gets distributed into the water.

This morning (8 hours later) I did not notice any difference yet. The holes in the oral syringes are relatively large... perhaps this needs to be moved to an area of higher current if it doesn't dissolve fast enough.

I think this idea is mind-boggling in its simplicity. No ketchup or gallon bottles on top of the tank, just a (few) good looking glass vials with the powder and some water, small, easy to hide, still easy to check on...


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## g8wayg8r (Dec 24, 2003)

Although this isn't as simple as an open vial, I wonder if you could use an airstone, some tubing and your container of concentrate. Let the head slowly push the concentrate through the airstone or just saturate the airstone. If you have any water movement, that should be sufficient to dose the tank. Plus, small internal filters are inexpensive and could be used as well to help out if your water is somewhat stagnent. If your aquarium is 18" (457 mm) tall and your container is a quarter of that, you won't get that much of difference in head so the dosing shouldn't vary that much.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Wasserpest said:


> What I was thinking was not to dissolve them (they won't, it's too much salt and not enough water), but to just let them settle down on the bottom of the vial. Therefore, you would have a near saturated solution in the container, which is just slowly diluted by tank water.
> 
> I imagine you could use bigger vials for KNO3 and K2SO4, and thinner ones for KH2PO4. Say you use 5 tsp of KNO3 for 2 weeks of dosing, you'd fill a thicker glass half of that, fill with water, let it settle, plug it shut and attach with rubber sucker in tank. Say you use 1/2 tsp of KH2PO4, you find a really thin vial, and do the same. Size of the diffusion hole would be the main regulation mechanism.


Now this sounds very workable! When the vial shows no solids in it would be the time to replenish it. One possible problem, which may account for what you saw after one day: water with varying amounts of salts in it will stratify and be pretty stable. I think there needs to be some slight stirring going on, or I'm not sure if there would be any diffusion going on at all. At least this is easily testable, as you are doing. A person with a fresh mind for doing the calculations necessary should be able to find out theoretically how fast the "salty" water would diffuse out.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I think placing it in an area of gentle water current, then adjusting the size of the opening will work great. Obviously the opening in the syringe is a little on the small side, of course much depends on the size of the tank that is to be dosed.

Last night I took it up a notch. Used two 12ml measuring tubes (they come with Red Sea Nitrate/Phosphate tests), attached them to a rubber sucker, filled them with one tsp KNO3 and K2SO4 respectively, and put them into the tank. This morning I noticed a slight reduction... not sure if it dissolves or compacted some over night. I think this might just work great...

BTW one tsp of powder translates into about 4ml of volume in the test tube. So the 12ml tubes would hold ~3 tsp, enough for 2 weeks of N or 3 weeks of K for my 100gal tank.

The neat thing is that this can be fairly small, and unobtrusive... made all out of glass, you won't notice much. Just put it in a place where you can observe the level of salt.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

g8wayg8r said:


> Although this isn't as simple as an open vial, I wonder if you could use an airstone, some tubing and your container of concentrate. Let the head slowly push the concentrate through the airstone or just saturate the airstone. If you have any water movement, that should be sufficient to dose the tank. Plus, small internal filters are inexpensive and could be used as well to help out if your water is somewhat stagnent. If your aquarium is 18" (457 mm) tall and your container is a quarter of that, you won't get that much of difference in head so the dosing shouldn't vary that much.


I think I understand what you are suggesting, but what I like most about what I am trying to do is the simplicity... nothing to install on top of the tank, no airlines, pumps, things that can clog up quickly... just a partially covered vial, filled with salt. Plus, very easy to see if it is still dosing, or about to run out.

I will post some pics soon, maybe that will help to demonstrate the very simple concept.


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

Wasser, please correct me if I'm way off base. 
It almost sounds like an adaptation of the miracle grow fertilizer my wife uses on her flower garden. Instead of a hose providing the water it would be flow from the filter output.

If it's not, 
Sorry it's the closest adaptation to what I think you are describing that I can think of in the real world.

EDIT:
Sorry just read this:


Wasserpest said:


> Not quite... I am hoping that the concentrated solution dilutes in the surrounding water passively, without any help from spraybars.


Guess I'm off.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I think that describes it well enough... with the fertilizer bottle and water hose, there is a hose going down into the solution, and the stream of water through the garden hose creates some vacuum and sucks the fertilizer out of the bottle. This here is very similar actually.

I promise I'll post some pictures by the weekend... just want to work out the first obvious bugs.


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## g8wayg8r (Dec 24, 2003)

Got it. Think about this. If you are dissatisfied with the rate of solution when the vial is upright, why not turn it on it's side to some degree so the density difference of the fertilizer solution and aquarium water gives you a gradient to allow the concentrate to flow more readily. That way, you aren't relying just on the water motion to draw the solution out of the vial. You could also use a plastic vial and insert a tube through the bottom and extend it maybe a cm or so. As the concentrate reaches the top of the tube, the density difference allows it to flow down into the tank.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Andrew, thanks for embracing and improving this! You are right... looks like the rate of solution is less than I thought. It is going down, slowly, but probably needs to go faster.

My next step will be to eliminate most of the stopper and leave the vial pretty much open, just need to find something to prevent curious loaches and such going in there and getting a mouthful of salt :hihi: 

Tilting the tube to its side is an idea, but I don't like it too much because it will reduce the amount of fertilizer that fits into the tube. I am hoping to find a way to pretty much fill up the tube and then watch it go down to nothing.

Adding a smaller tube to the inside is brilliant... I guess you could drill a hole into the side of the vial just as well. Maybe the inserted tubing you are suggesting will actually create a bit of density driven circulation? This will be the next step if I can't increase the rate of solution "naturally".

Was also thinking of placing some tubes into the chamber of my AC Mini, you know, where the water circulates before it goes through the filter media. This might be a good way to get them tubes out of sight.


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## g8wayg8r (Dec 24, 2003)

Wasserpest said:


> Tilting the tube to its side is an idea, but I don't like it too much because it will reduce the amount of fertilizer that fits into the tube. I am hoping to find a way to pretty much fill up the tube and then watch it go down to nothing.


Pleased to help. How bout stuffing the test tube or vial with glass wool or some other coarse, open media to keep the the salts in place. You could invert it or tilt it on it's side. For that matter, you could fill and tube with the salts and pack both ends. There are lots of ways to go. I'm sure you are going to find a good one. I would love to try but I'm still a bit uncertain as to how much I should dose. Guess there's no substitute to getting you hands wet .


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

You know, you have some great ideas there...

The open vials still didn't dissolve enough of the salt. So like Andrew suggested, I stuck some sponge into the vial, and turned them around. Now I see a lot of salty water diffusing out of the bottom. Maybe too much. But I am sure there are 1000 ways to slow that down, maybe by adding a little plastic disk with a hole on top of the sponge, maybe just using a stopper with a smaller hole. I will keep watching it for a while to get an idea of how much fertilizer per hour gets dissolved.

For my 10gal tank, I used some smaller test tubes and placed them open top into the little water circulation compartment of the AC Mini. With the added circulation there I am sure it will dissolve more fertilizer than if you passively place it into the tank. Just need to keep monitoring it to find the correct rate.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Time for an update, and a few pictures...

Just as a reminder... the objective here is to simplify macro dosing. While the water pump method works great, you still need an electronic timer and a pump (expense, complexity), you need to mix the solution every 2 or 4 weeks, and there are questions whether the solution degrades over time.

This is thought to overcome all three disadvantages. I went into two different directions: 1) using open tubes in a filter and 2) using inverted tubes in the tank.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Method 1) is extremely simple:










You find some tubes (I used a thin plastic one with a cover, cut it into two, and so I had two of them). Fill them with say a weekly amount of fertilizer, and place them into your filter. I am using an AC Mini which works very well for this.

To prevent them from getting on the loose, turning over and dumping a weeks worth of fertilizer into my tank at once, I somewhat secured them:










I added my weekly loads of KNO3 and K2SO4 and checked them every day. The KNO3 dissolves much quicker than K2SO4, I will need to partially cover the opening to decrease the rate of solution. K2SO4 worked out pretty perfect, today, 7 days after placing it into the filter, there is almost nothing left.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Hm, so you just let the water wash over the openings of the tubes? Hmm.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Method 2 is slightly more complex, but allows to dose larger quantities. I started like this:










Using some test tubes, turned them around, with a little bit of sponge and a hole in the stopper. However, adjusting the rate of diffusion is difficult, the hole is either too small or way too big.

So I got a couple of airline valves and use them to adjust the opening on the bottom:










That works pretty good now. Only issue is that an airbubble was trapped in the outflow, blocking things. Once everything got re-primed I could see a tiny bit of fertilizer solution flowing out on the bottom. 

For the next couple of weeks, I will do my weekly dose refill and then over the course of the week monitor the setup to see if it works consistently.

So... instead of adding a spoon of dry powder, or dissolving it and autodosing iit, or using a feeder to drop in the ferts, one (or two or four) weeks of fertilizer is added and dissolves slowly over a couple of days.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

I recently PM'd Wasserpest about this new setup. And I realized I should've posted it here for general information.



Wasserpest said:


> epicfish said:
> 
> 
> > I read that thread and saw the one with the inverted syringe and the test tube. Instead of sliding the syringe into the test tube, wouldn't it be easier to just fill the syringe with your fertilizers and then just insert the plunger into the back and keep it like that?
> ...


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Thank you Epic!


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Hey Wasserpest,

Seems like You are headed the same direction....Here's a link to an "ECA Slow Dripper" that "Dewmazz" over at APC came up with. I don't know if the idea will help you with this at all, but maybe....:

ECA Slow Dripper

I can't currently think of any uses or modifications for it, but maybe you can.....

Its gravity-operated, so maybe a "Cap" w/ a pinhole on the top end might help. Who knows? 

HTH


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Yep, somewhat similar direction. I bet once I get the macros figured out I'll look into applications for micro dosing. 

My Macro-doser is completely closed except for the airline valve on the bottom. The concentrated fertilizer solution diffuses out into the water column. This is visible, helps a little to adjust it too. If nothing comes out, the valve needs to be opened further, if a lot of solution is visible, it is probably too much.

I filled them with a weekly supply of KNO3 and K2SO4 on Sunday, and today, Wednesday, about 35% is gone. Pretty close to what it should be. Good thing is that testing the rate is really easy.

I imagine this might just be the future of macro dosing for planted tanks. You read it here first, hehe.

Imagine three or four stylish glass tubes in different sizes, with a clear valve attached to a clear cap, tubes attached with transparent snap-things to a good-looking holder made, of course, out of glass, with four reliable, clear rubber suckers to attach this to the side of the tank.

Every month, you fill in a months worth of macros, and after a month, you look at where the fert levels in the tubes are, and as you refill do some fine adjusting of the valves if necessary.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

I'm glad its working out for You. I just cannot figure out why it isn't getting moist, caking and clogging....?

That would have been *My* result! :biggrin: 

Keep chuggin' along--You'll get it worked out! roud:


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

The glass tube is filled with water and fertilizer. The salt settles on the bottom of the water-filled tube. No air in the tubes. Makes sense now?


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Yep, actually it does......

But for me: it would still find a way to cake and clog! :biggrin:


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I doubt it. Unless you are using inferior chemicals, salts like KNO3 and K2SO4 should completely dissolve. 

For this method, it doesn't matter if they cake or clump. There is a concentration gradient between the saturated solution in the vial, and the water outside it. Controlled by the valve, the heavier saturated solution moves down, the water moves up into the vial.

Nothing clogs. If salt crystals are blocking the valve, they dissolve the fastest. If that seems like an issue, you can use a bit of sponge to keep the undissolved fertilizer away from the valve. I tried it both ways, with and without sponge, and don't see much difference in the solution rate. Without the sponge, you can cram a little more fertilizer into the tube = advantage.

When filling the tube, I first put in a little bit of water, then the salt, then fill it up with water, then stir it to make sure there is no air in it. The salt settles to the bottom, then I close the tube with the stopper/valve/syringe whatever I use, making sure there is no air in the valve which would block the whole flow.

It's really much easier than I make it sound. :biggrin:


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Ordered me some test tubes and got some white/opaque rubber stoppers. Should look pretty esthetic (I hope) soon enough!


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## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

Good idea......DC


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

DC, read some of the more recent posts...

I don't see much benefit for water storage tanks... there you can just add whatever is needed to reach a certain level.

In the tank, on the other side, you have a constant fertilizer usage, which would be offset with the slow macro dosing.


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## captured!byrobots (Jan 8, 2006)

I really like this idea....

I might finally start dosing....
Keep it up.

This might be off topic,
and a bit bigger than what you're talking about,
but would the equivilant of an IV bag above the tank
with a very slow drip do the same stuff?
(those IV valves have a very fine adjustment rate)
It would require no pumps, gravity feed....

Just wanting your opinions on it...


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Hey JBOT, yep, there is something like you are describing, the Kent Aquadose drip thing. I am sure it works, drawbacks are visual... imagine having an IV bag hanging over your tank... Plus there could be some settling in the solution. Plus the other issues similar to waterpump dosing... you have to mix solutions, which might degrade over time.

This here is small and simple. Once the valve is set correctly, you can hide it behind plants, off to the side, or of course feature it on the front glass to impress visitors.

I am trying hard to come up with problems and disadvantages since it just seems too simple. So far, no luck. roud:


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## captured!byrobots (Jan 8, 2006)

Yeah, I like your idea better.

I didn't know about the kent IV thingy.

Keep going with this idea.
I love it....


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Well, once you get it sorted out--I'll give it a try. I think I already have everything.....roud:


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## vidiots (Jun 17, 2006)

I tried the Kent Aquadose Drip thing. It works by pinching the hose to reduce the flow. The problem I had with it was that it required too much adjusting to maintain a constant flow rate. If you adjusted it for too slow of a flow rate the kink in the hose would relax over time and seal it off completely and it would stop flowing all together. I haven't thrown it out though, because it works very well for drip acclimating my new fish to my water where I'm using a faster drip rate by dosing over a period of hours instead of days or weeks.

It also has the same problem as the other auto dosers with the dose rate varying signifigantly with fluid height.


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## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

Wasserpest said:


> DC, read some of the more recent posts...
> 
> I don't see much benefit for water storage tanks... there you can just add whatever is needed to reach a certain level.
> 
> In the tank, on the other side, you have a constant fertilizer usage, which would be offset with the slow macro dosing.


I reread the thread and edited, missed most of the posts the first time......DC


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## essabee (Oct 7, 2006)

My top up system is hang on the side trough with a float valve, height adjusted for the aquarium level, and connected to the aquarium with a 6mm pvc pipe siphon, the ball valve is connected to my RO output.

As I have decided to change the aquarium into a CO2 dosed and fertilised one, I have built a 3” fertiliser tube to be put into the top up trough. It is merely a ½” plastic pipe with a lot of holes, plugged at one end and a rubber bung on the other. The side of the entire tube is covered with the fabric of an old nylon socks. I intend to just fill it up with the fertiliser dose and drop it into the trough of the top up system and adjust the quantity of fertilizers by observation.

As there is no current affecting the material inside the F-tube, I expect it would work.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Nylon socks? The possibilities are endless  

Another way to do this would be some sort of canister filter inline applicator, modifying something like this for example.

Right now I am trying to optimize the setup. Searching for those perfect glass tubes, with plastic threaded stopper, where you can plug the airvalves in, maybe sideways to prevent oxygen bubbles from blocking them. I have some acrylic pipe leftovers from my filter in/outlet adventures, there might be a good starting point.


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

Wasser, 
Thanks for all the work. 
I've been looking around the house, and some stores for me to build some of these. So far nothing that will hold the amount of dry ferts I need for a 125 for a whole week (~8 tsp. ) 

I think I need to hit the Container store. My wife picked up some ketchup squeeze style bottles, that might be able to be modified. 

LIGHTBULB!!! I'm using the eheim install kit which has that screw cap! Hmm, lots of possibilities.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

They sell these food/water containers for birds that you can clamp outside of the cage:

Vertical Tube Feeders/Waterers

Might be worth a trip to the petstore to get one of them to play around with. Still need to find a suitable cap though. But try it... it works.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

*Too good to be true...*

After much excitement I ran into a first serious snag...

While finetuning the dosing, I noticed that over the course of the week, the slurries coming out of the air valve would become less and less. Thinking that there might have been an airbubble blocking the flow, I cleaned them. There was no airbubble, but now more swirly slurries began to show.

So what I am thinking is... Similar to what killed the aliens in War of the Worlds... there is enough microbial activity to grow a biofilm on the air valve surfaces which ultimately blocks the tiny hole.

One hope is that the biofilm only grows so much, and opening up the valve just a tad more will lead to a still consistent dosing.


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## ianmoede (Oct 1, 2004)

Hah, -2 points for referencing a tom cruise flick. DO YOU KNOW THE HISTORY OF AUTODOSING? Wasserpest, wasserpest, youre being glib. You dont know the history of autodosing like i do.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Please refer to me as Dr. Wasserpest from now on. :icon_mrgr 

Anyway, I gave it another shot using a small piece of sponge on the bottom, which provides an area where the salts can dissolve, basically speeding up the dosing. Looks a bit better. I'll keep you updated.

Anybody else played around with this? Epic?


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## MarkP (Jan 1, 2007)

I had a similiar gadget I used for a different application that might give you some ideas. It has some limitations, but might spark an idea. Or, since I'm new here, a similiar idea might have already been shot down.

I started with a peice of pipe- lets say 1/2 inch PVC. Cut it into 3 sections. Size of sections A and C are relatively unimportant, the middle section is sized so that it contains 1/2 of your daily dose.

Now you need 2 strong, thin discs, about 3-4 inches in diamter. I used metal lids off a coffee can (Tough plastic might work). Each lid gets a hole the size of the pipe in it.

Each lid gets glued to clock motor- I bought them from the Arts and Crafts section of Wal-Mart or K-Mart or similiar store. Ideally, you want AC Powered ones- Battery powered ones might end up being too weak, I'm not sure. Snap off the minute hand and part of the hour hand, glue the coffee lid to the hour hand.

Lid 1 gets inserted between pipe section A and pipe section B. Lid 2, between B and C. The holes are opposite each other, such that only 1 hole lines up with the pipe at any 1 time. When Lid 1 lines up, the powder drops from Section A to Section B. Lid 1 moves, Lid 2 lines up, Only the powder from Section B falls through Section C and into the Aquarium. Over the next 12 hours, this repeats, section A reloading B with the specified amount, then B released through C and into the aquarium.

--
||
|| <--- Pipe Section A
|| 
------------- <- Lid 1
||
|| <-- Pipe Section B
||
------------ <- Lid 2
||
|| Pipe Section C
||
--

Aquarium


Place a funnel on top of Pipe Section A, and that's your hopper, holding the dry ferts. If you like, cut the bottom out of a plastic coffee can and glue gun it to the funnel- Your hopper holds more and keeps most of the moisture out.

Problems- 1. Lid needs to be thin, and clock motors strong, to "cut" through the powder. I had no problems, but I was using coffee grounds and AC Powered clock motors.

2. A catastrophic failure occurs if either motor fails with the hole lined up with the pipe- In less then 12 hours, the 2nd hole will also line up, and dump entire hopper into tank.

Question- Would running both Lids off a single motor, connected via a dowel, solve this problem?

3. To adjust your dosing, you need to basically rebuild the whole thing- Recut Section B of pipe, changing the distance and making you remount the lid rotors.


YMMV


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Mark, welcome to the Planted Tank, and thanks for chiming in! It's great when lots of ideas come together for a finally successful design.

Your idea is somewhat related to dry dosing via an autofeeder, where you add fertilizer mix to a hopper, from where a specific amount is then dropped daily.

I think your idea has some merit to it, but let me shoot some ifs and buts into it first...

1) This is going to sit on top of the tank. There is going to be some height and uglyness to this... you probably couldn't hide it within the canopy, might be too humid in there, leading to a hard mess of salt crystals. So we have a visual aspect... I keep trying to make things invisible!

2) Unless you would add a couple of these, you would need to mix fertilizers. I would be a bit worried that they un-mix in the hopper, and you end up dosing only Phosphates one day, and then only Potassium one week. How would you make sure that they contain a very even mix? 

3) When adding a bunch of dry fertilizer to a hopper, things tend to clog easily. Just the regular humidity of surrounding air will change the free flowing powder to a block of salt, over time. At some point, no ferts will flow down, and even the "measuring chamber" could easily get blocked. Every morning, before lights on, moisture can be seen on cover glasses etc, and it would go into the C-section  of your pipe...

4) This would be a somewhat challenging thing to construct... you would need to get some seal where the lids go into the pipe section I suppose. Not the most simple thing.

Instead of the clock motor, you could use a mechanical timer, which rotates once every 24 hours, and has a very strong torque motor.


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## MarkP (Jan 1, 2007)

Good points.

1. I envisioned this sitting at the back of my DIY Hood. That gives me 6 inches of height to play with, and I could always cover the thing with a wooden box. But... Not everyone has a huge wooden box on top of their tank. Larger diameter pipe reduces height, but it'll never be slim or pretty.

2. I'm not positive this would be an issue, but cannot confirm that without a test. Uhm... this document is a rough draft and is not intended to address this issue as this time?

3. Real good point. I sealed the top of the hopper, but not the bottom. Uhm... this document is a rough draft and is not intended to address this issue as this time? Actually, if I use the mechanical timer and schedule lid 2 to open in the afternoon (After Section C has dried), I can probably minimize this. Again, I need to do a build to find out.

4. This wasn't a problem in the previous model. As long as the lids are flat, the pipes pressing against the lid on both sides provided enough of a seal- Otherwise Section C could be removed. Coffee grounds are not Potassium Nitrate, though, and may require a tighter seal. Again, I'll just have to build it and find out.

(Thank you for not asking WHY I wanted to auto dose coffee grounds. It would've been great, I tell you... but I never had a method of removing the old ones or replacing the filter, which is why I'm not worth millions.)


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

> (Thank you for not asking WHY I wanted to auto dose coffee grounds. It would've been great, I tell you... but I never had a method of removing the old ones or replacing the filter, which is why I'm not worth millions.)


Would have a Nice Black Water Effect and might just speed up Breeding......:bounce:


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I figured you would use the coffee grounds for a different application  May I recommend a fully automatic expresso machine, just add good beans and water, press a button, and bingo... all autodosed, just throw out the used grounds when the hopper is full. :thumbsup: 

Okay, back on topic... If you could build one and share some pics and experiences that would be great... it has a lot of potential. I think you could easily make it adjustable too... but the other things I mentioned might be a dealbreaker.

I have since abandoned the design with the airvalve on the bottom... it works initially, but over time the fertilizer flow stops, most likely due to a "Biofilm" blocking the tiny opening.

Focussing on a open top solution which would need to be in an area of strong water movement. That, and the size of the top opening would determine the rate of dissolution. Trying it now for my 10gal, two little tubes sitting in the AC Mini filter.

Once this works reliably, I might look into using a canister filter to do this. I clean my canisters roughly every 4 weeks, so I would use some tube that holds that much fertilizer. The transparent XP plastic would make observing this pretty easy, just need some way of reliably attaching the tube so it doesn't float away and spills 4 wks of powder in a minute.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Wasserpest said:


> I figured you would use the coffee grounds for a different application  May I recommend a fully automatic expresso machine, just add good beans and water, press a button, and bingo... all autodosed, just throw out the used grounds when the hopper is full. :thumbsup:
> 
> Okay, back on topic... If you could build one and share some pics and experiences that would be great... it has a lot of potential. I think you could easily make it adjustable too... but the other things I mentioned might be a dealbreaker.
> 
> ...


Sorry I've been MIA for a while. The big problem that I also found was the gunk buildup in the airline controller. My problem was plant debris or small bits of algae. Whatever it was, it'd stop the flow after 8-9 days.

I might experiment with pieces of coarse sponge or nylon in the end of the test tube instead of the stopper and airline controller and see how that works. Problem is, since the sponge and nylon would be somewhat coarse, buildup of the gunk would still pose a problem over a long period of time.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

To bad we can't make a weekly feeder for plants like they do for fish.


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## vidiots (Jun 17, 2006)

Wasserpest said:


> Mark, welcome to the Planted Tank, and thanks for chiming in! It's great when lots of ideas come together for a finally successful design.
> 
> Your idea is somewhat related to dry dosing via an autofeeder, where you add fertilizer mix to a hopper, from where a specific amount is then dropped daily.
> 
> ...


Something like this might be better used on tanks that have a hidden sump tank where it could be placed above the sump and out of site. I also think that if you used a large enough diameter pipe suspended a distance above the tank so that air can circulate between the output and the tank you should be able to reduce the moisture issues.

I think this is a very neat idea, and may warrant a seperate discussion/experimentation thread of it's own.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

vidiots said:


> Something like this might be better used on tanks that have a hidden sump tank where it could be placed above the sump and out of site. I also think that if you used a large enough diameter pipe suspended a distance above the tank so that air can circulate between the output and the tank you should be able to reduce the moisture issues.
> 
> I think this is a very neat idea, and may warrant a seperate discussion/experimentation thread of it's own.


I agree, there are still more ways for autodosing that haven't been explored entirely. Reminds me of this thread where an autofeeder has been used. I still think the Rondomatic feeder would work the best, if instead of powder one would use pellets or something like a fertilizer pill. Mix a bunch of rations, moisten them, let them dry, there you have a clump of fertilizer which should drop easily into the tank.

Meanwhile, I have been using cut up syringes inside the AC Mini, and that seems to work well. Still need to figure out the exact dosing, but at least there is some continuous dosage over time.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Wasserpest said:


> I agree, there are still more ways for autodosing that haven't been explored entirely. Reminds me of this thread where an autofeeder has been used. I still think the Rondomatic feeder would work the best, if instead of powder one would use pellets or something like a fertilizer pill. Mix a bunch of rations, moisten them, let them dry, there you have a clump of fertilizer which should drop easily into the tank.


You can get pill presses like the ones pharmacists use and press pills of fertilizer. =P

Not sure how easy/legal it'd be to obtain one of those though.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Back Again......

Not sure if this concept will help You at all or not, but here's the Dosator:

Dosator

Its for Iron and traces, but the design concept might help out somehow.....


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## sukebe (Nov 6, 2004)

What if you plugged the test tube with a stopper w/ two lines plumbed into it

One line can be placed in an area where water will flow past and the venturi effect will pull solution out. The other line can be hooked to a valve like this to meter flow. That way, you can control the flow of solution out by regulating the water going in. 

If you can also plumb the "intake" side somewhere there is a little bit of positive pressure, you can help overcome the biofilm buildup. Maybe "in" plumbed into the spraybar w/ inlet pointed into the flow of water, and a little downline in the spraybar, the "out" can be plumbed pointing the opposite direction to take advantage of the venturi. 

Bad idea?


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Sounds like a do-able idea, but... I am drawn to simplicity. When you start to plumb things into other things, complexity arises, and I don't want to have to adjust my filter flow to get the dosing right.  

It will matter where exactly you place the line for the venturi effect to work. Now let's say you pull it out to refill, put it back in, you better know the exact location where it has been previously.

Currently I am using a slightly modified design of the open tubes. I'll post some pictures soon, haven't had time to download them from my camera. Basically it is the "Open Tubes" method, where I have two plastic syringes sitting in my AC Mini filter. I got the size of the holes optimized, just went from a 1 week to a 2 week refill cycle.

****************************

Another idea - is anyone using a Flow Meter, which attaches inline in your canister filter tubing? Is there any water going through this, or is it simply pressure pushing the indicator up or down a scale? Me thinks, if there is any water flowing through this, maybe this could be modded to hold and dose fertilizer?


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## sukebe (Nov 6, 2004)

I was thinking of using an "L" shaped fitting inside the spraybar. The fittings would never move, so you wouldnt have to worry about replacing them in exactly the same spot. Adjustment would be via air valve I linked to rather than filter flow. When replacing ferts, you could just uncork the tube to refill without removing the other parts. After the tube is filled, a thumb over the top would keep everything inside until replaced.

Essentially, this is the same principle as the flow meter idea (if there is indeed water flowing through the indicator). If you wanted, couldn't you just use pvc to implement my idea and get the same result? Difference would be the test tube located inside the tank on spray bar as opposed to having it outside the tank, and easier to adjust dosing with a valve. Plus, the meter would still have to be _plumbed in_.


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## |GTO| (Oct 9, 2006)

Wasserpest said:


> Sounds like a do-able idea, but... I am drawn to simplicity. When you start to plumb things into other things, complexity arises, and I don't want to have to adjust my filter flow to get the dosing right.


I dont know if you mind spending a little cash, but there is a way to dose inline that i came up with a while back, but a small amount of cash is necessary.

Yet, it is not all that complicated.

[URL=http://www.plantedtank.net/imagehosting/view/755/][/URL]

1. Basically the two main reservoirs for micro and macro ferts are controlled via two solenoids. These 2 solenoids are attached to 2 seperate run of the mill timers, or you can use a control box if your rich :icon_lol: . 

2. The secondary reservoir acts as a 'catch and release' drain, thus eliminating the need for a second dosing pump. 

3. The dosing pump then pulls the fluid out of the secondary reservoir and pumps directly inline via one 'Y' connection, thus eliminating the need for 2 seperate plumbings for the 2 different fert bottles.

4. The 'Y' connection is reversed so as to not reduce flow. The water from the aquarium will fill the 'Y' branch associated with the dosing end, but will not be nearly as pressurized due to waters' laziness (water takes the path of least resistance). 

5. The check valve will eliminate any chance of back flow into the dosing pump, and since the pressure is minimal, the dosing pump will have more than enough power to pump directly into the inline.

6. This method eliminates one of the plumbs into the return line, and the second dosing pump commonly seen in other dosing methods.


**READ** Upon further thought and research, one could easily eliminate the 2 solenoids and drip the ferts into the secondary reservoir over the course of time and then run the pump only once per day. However, this would require the macros and micros to mix, ultimately defeating the purpse.

The nice thing about this setup is that it can we used on a wide range of aquarium, even without canister filters. Just set it to pump right into the aquarium, or into a HOB.

Just my take on the 'celebrated' autodosing brainstorm.

What do you guys think?

cheers,


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## sukebe (Nov 6, 2004)

This is kind of what I was thinking of.










It would be easy to add it onto a reactor... alas, I realize what you were saying about complexity. This solution is not as simple as chucking a tube in the HOB and forgetting about it for a week like your original idea. But still...


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## sukebe (Nov 6, 2004)

jdb416 said:


> I dont know if you mind spending a little cash, but there is a way to dose inline that i came up with a while back, but a small amount of cash is necessary.
> 
> Yet, it is not all that complicated.


Dude, if my idea is too complicated, yours is like launching a satellite into orbit. :biggrin: 

I can appreciate the system you thought up there. It's a nice project and I'd feel really proud if I were able to design and build it. My idea is more based on my skill level/work ethic.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

jdb, thanks for sharing your idea/design, but like Sukebe mentioned this is way beyond simple, and I think an easier way would be to use powerheads like described in another thread.

One goal of this method here is to forego the solutions altogether and use the fertilizer salt, dissolving it slowly. This makes the setup much smaller, and the fertilizers don't degrade like they might do in solutions.

Sukebes idea is a bit closer to where I want to go with that. Using the filter outflow somehow to get water circulating in the fertilizer tube seems something worth exploring. I am not sure about the air valve to adjust flow, seems like it would have the same issues as the upside down tubes, clogging over time?

Thanks for the drawing... I am thinking that the tube outflow (red) doesn't necessarily need to be in the filter outflow, as long as it is in an area of good circulation it could be simply a hole in the tube. Or you could move the adjusting valve to that side. Many ways... I might start playing around with that design.


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## essabee (Oct 7, 2006)

If you are not adverse to continuous over the week dosing with fert solution a simple drip bag system from the medicine store would be easy to set up.


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## madman280 (Jul 9, 2006)

I wonder if it would be possible to make up slow release tablets like they have for some drugs. It would eliminate mechanical complexity and failures. You wouldn't see it so even a minimalist ADA aquatic glass sculpture could use them.
Maybe make them last a month. Drop one of each into the filter at every monthly cleaning.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

There are slow release fertilizers like Osmocote, but 1) the resins that are used are not necessarily good for fish and inverts and 2) they are made to work in moist soil, and will not work totally submersed.

I think a slow release "pill" will be the future of planted tank dosing, but at the moment the market is too small for thorough (and expensive) research.

For now, using tubes with fertilizer in a well circulated spot comes pretty close to the "slow release pill", both in reliability and simplicity. Only thing is to find the correct rate of dissolution.

Like previously mentioned, I am using this method in my 10gal tank, now on a 2 week cycle. It is Saturday, and the fertilizer levels in my tubes (supplying KNO3, K2SO4, and MgSO4) are at about 60%, which is very promising (should be empty Sunday in a week).

Here is a picture of a more recent version, using two syringes:










Size of the syringe opening, and strength of the current will determine how fast the powder dissolves.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Wasser, Two queries. Having just recently invested in two AS 606 pumps and cereal containers/tees/hose for the cheap auto dosing method, have you positively concluded there is much degradation in 2-3 weeks for trace/KNO3/Potassium?

And are you going to just dose PO4 manually (dry or in solution) with this new in tank method? I ask these two questions because I am really happy with the autodosing for dummies setup, so far. But its only been running less than a week? Sorry if this is off topic. PS, this newest method is a really interesting idea!!


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Betowess said:


> Wasser, Two queries. Having just recently invested in two AS 606 pumps and cereal containers/tees/hose for the cheap auto dosing method, have you positively concluded there is much degradation in 2-3 weeks for trace/KNO3/Potassium?


Actually, I am dosing my 100gal and 36gal tanks via the pump method, with 4 week intervals, and it works great. I removed the trace part from the solutions, and just dose KNO3 and K2SO4. The traces are injected into the airline via the Fluidoser, and then get flushed into the tank once a day when macros are dosed.
Removing the KH2PO4 from the macro solution has made a big improvement in the smellyness of the solution. After 4 weeks it hasn't any bad smell, and with the P this happened definitely after 10 days to 2 weeks. So in my case degradation isn't a big issue, and 4 week refill intervals are no problem.

On the other hand, the method described here is even cheaper and simpler. A pump and an electronic timer don't cost much, but still need to be purchased. A little spice container, or even a piece of vinyl tubing should be easy to find.

Another thing is the size... with a 100gal tank, having two gal containers sitting in the stand or on the side isn't a big issue. For the typical 10gal tank, this new setup is better - no cereal containers or additional hoses hanging around. 



Betowess said:


> And are you going to just dose PO4 manually (dry or in solution) with this new in tank method? I ask these two questions because I am really happy with the autodosing for dummies setup, so far. But its only been running less than a week? Sorry if this is off topic. PS, this newest method is a really interesting idea!!


Not off topic at all. My plan is to dose the PO4 dry (/submerged), along with N and K, using a tube like the ones shown. I just got some really tiny syringes (like used to inject insulin), shouldn't be a problem to dose small amounts of PO4 as well. I guess one could combine several powders in one container, but some salts are much easier soluble than others, so it would probably not be a good idea.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Wasserpest said:


> Actually, I am dosing my 100gal and 36gal tanks via the pump method, with 4 week intervals, and it works great. I removed the trace part from the solutions, and just dose KNO3 and K2SO4. The traces are injected into the airline via the Fluidoser, and then get flushed into the tank once a day when macros are dosed.
> Removing the KH2PO4 from the macro solution has made a big improvement in the smellyness of the solution. After 4 weeks it hasn't any bad smell, and with the P this happened definitely after 10 days to 2 weeks. So in my case degradation isn't a big issue, and 4 week refill intervals are no problem.


OK, thanks for clearing that up. I may go with the liquiddoser, or get a peristaltic to dose straight traces. But I have already noticed the plants look MUCH happier with new tubes and daily doses! Thanks Wasserpest roud:


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## Basilisk (Mar 1, 2004)

I'll try this in custom made Pasteur pipettes. 

Lab glass pipes can be heat-stretched to give them a capillary width end stem, as long as you want, and bent as needed. The tip of the long capillary stem can be placed in a faster current zone of the tank, dragging the internal concentrated solution outwards, similar to venturi. The thin stem can be made as long as necessary to fit the desired salt output rate--the longer and thinner, the slower. It will also work passively, as has been shown by Dr. Wasserpest's prototypes (fancy enough?).

Long pieces of glass pipe, 4-5ft, aproximately 1/4 inch in diameter, cost about a couple bucks. Plenty for trying.

There are also small rubber caps, but for the looks, they can be better made out of hot silicone gun glue bars of appropriate diameter. These cost just a few cents.

I used these same pipettes to deliver CO2 to the intake of a HOB filter, almost invisible.

WP, these could be the material you are looking for. 
Hope it helps.

CAUTION: For anyone trying this, be careful. Glass gets very hot, and can give you a painful burn. It is quite safe to do this, just pay attention to what you touch.


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## defdac (Dec 28, 2003)

I wonder if agar gel cubes would be good for an easy slow release approach...


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## sukebe (Nov 6, 2004)

and good for bacterial explosion


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## defdac (Dec 28, 2003)

> and good for bacterial explosion


You know this for a fact?

What about this then? :flick:


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## original kuhli (Nov 28, 2006)

oh, I like the looks of this slow release via agar...


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

What happens to the agar when it dissolves in water? Is it pretty much inert, or will it turn our tank water into something bad and smelly?

I assume the image with the agar in the substrate serves to illustrate your point... to evenly dose the tank this would have to be put in an area of current, maybe into your filter.

And the prize question: How long does it take to dissolve a (smallish) cube of agar in water?


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## Kelley (Nov 2, 2006)

Agar will not dissolve in water unless you boil it (just like gelatin). It will likely eventually decompose if buried in the substrate. If you kept it on top, you could easily remove it.


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## sukebe (Nov 6, 2004)

defdac said:


> You know this for a fact?
> 
> What about this then? :flick:


Damn, I got moded! Okay, my bad. I admit, all I know about agar is that kanten is delicious and they use it in petri dishes. So how come it doesn't grow fungus or bacteria in the substrate? When culturing plants in agar, I know you have to take great measures to keep everything sterile.

Anyway... if it doesn't dissolve in water, but will decompose slowly, can you include enough salt (and still solidify the agar) to make this a viable dosing option, or is it used just as growing medium?


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## defdac (Dec 28, 2003)

Yes it was very persistent in the substrate.. It remained in shape for more than 6 months and then slowly began turn to mush (decompose), so I guess it's mostly for growing medium.

I had hoped someone would say it would dissolve, but just very very slow. A bit of searching seems that Kelley is right. It will not dissolve until it reaches 100 degrees.

Oh well *shrug*

I think this thread have raised many good points and I will definitely try some of this dry-dissolving out if it seems to work! Thanks all and especially Wasserpest.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

It was a good idea... if anyone finds a slowly dissolving, inert substance that can be mixed up with salts... please share. Jello?

That would deserve its own thread.


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## Kelley (Nov 2, 2006)

Salts will freely diffuse out of the agar. Larger molecules will as well, though at a slower rate. Once the agar sets, it creates a porous network. This feature is exploited in the use of agarose gels used to analyze DNA fragments by size. Agarose is just highly purified agar that is used by molecular biologists. 

These agar-fert blocks might work, but I would like to offer a few suggestions. First, be sure to sterlize your casting tray of choice. (Maybe use an ice-cube tray?). You could do this the way that home-canners sterilize jars by using a boiling water bath or the dishwasher. Boil the solution thouroughly. This is needed to dissolve the agar and keep things sterile. This may not be a good idea for traces because the heat might dissrupt some of the chelation of the traces. If I were in the lab, I would simply pass the trace solution through a 3 micron filter to sterilize it and add it directly to the agar once it had cooled to a reasonable temperature. (~65 degrees C is good. cool enough to handle.) This is the method that I use to add antibiotics and drugs to the agar media that I make. Second, I would do some bottle tests to check the diffusion rate of the ferts from the agar blocks into the water column. 

So, in summary, this could work as a way to make dosing blocks for at the very least macros. You could put a small sterilzed stainless steal washer in each block to help it sink. I can't tell you how long a block would last, though.

Oh, and i would not use jello. Agar is a polysaccharide, whereas gelatin is a protein. You do not want decomposing proteins in your tank! Your poor fishies!


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## sukebe (Nov 6, 2004)

I still dont understand why you have to sterilize everything, but then you can drop it in your tank and it's okay. Is it only vunerable in liquid form?


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## Kelley (Nov 2, 2006)

You need to be sterile if you want to make more than one at a time. I would assume that you would for time-savings. Otherwise, it would be a lot simpler to dose your tank some other way. You would be surprised the nastiness that will grow on this stuff! These should be kept refrigerated, as well.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Kelley, thanks for your advice! 

One big problem with using agar-like substances that do _not_ dissolve is that the rate of fertilizer dosing will change over time. Initially, a fresh block will provide a very high concentration of nutrients diffusing into the water. As it gets exhausted, less and less fertilizer is going into the water.

I want an absolutely linear dosing. Using a tube containing the fertilizer will provide that, more or less, since the surface of the exposed fertilizer doesn't change over time.


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## Kelley (Nov 2, 2006)

Wasserpest, you are correct that this will not provide linear dosing. It also sounds like a messy, fussy business. My kitchen is messy enough!


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## briandmiles (Feb 23, 2005)

What about using the upside down test tubes with a rubber stopper and glass pipe running through the stopper toward the top (actually the bottom) of the test tube. By varying the length of the glass pipe you would vary the concentration that was exposed to the tank water. This may run into the same problem with the biofilm but, I think the tube might be large enough to avoid that problem.

Brian


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

My guess is that this will not dissolve fast enough. If I understand you right, the glass pipe would run through the fertilizer and stick out on the top? I think there would not be enough flow in there to dissolve the salts. Plus, as the level of the salt goes down, distance between the top of the glass pipe and the fertilizer increases, and less fertilizer would be dosed (I imagine).


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## ann (Nov 3, 2005)

Depending on how automated you want to go I have found that a simple IV bag or gastronasal feeding bag for babies works well. I mix 1 weeks worth of ferts in 2L of dechlorinated water and fill the bag. I have adjusted the drip rate so that by day 6 or 7 the bag is empty. Takes 10mins or less to setup on a sunday nite and then you are free all week to enjoy the tank.

As a side note when you go to the drug store to ask for a the bag ask for the gastronasal one you get very strange looks if you ask for an IV bag. They are essentially the same thing except one has a needle fitted to the end which you do not need anyway.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

There are two issues with the IV bags... 1) Difficult to hide and 2) settling of solutions. They are also susceptible to solutions degrading over time...

Especially 1) makes it a non-starter for me. It would work good if you had a sump and some room above it in your stand.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

It's been a couple of months, and "Test tube dosing" supplies phosphates to all my tanks now. KH2PO4 dissolves fast enough to not need a lot of water flow, and it is easy enough to find a little plastic tube either left open, or reduced with a stopper with a hole in it for smaller tanks.

I don't really test for phosphates. I know my water doesn't have any, and my plants don't need a whole lot, so I start with say 1/4 tsp and figure it should be enough for 4 weeks, make a note when I add it to the tank, then just watch.

You can see one in action in my 100gal tank here: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/photo-album/12971-100-gal-tank-take-2-not.html#post422296

Neat thing is since P doesn't mix with micros (iron), you could dose P this way and the rest of the ferts mixed together with another application of your choice, peristaltic pump, water pump, air pump, whatever.


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