# Planted tank with Sump Issues



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

I have a 120tall tank with a sump, that is gassing off too much of the CO2 that i am injecting and I am having a algae outbreak. I was wondering what i could do to stop the gassing off. Or could I take the sump out and hook a fx5 to the output and input from the tank? Would this work? Will this be enough water exchange? Any other ideas?


----------



## GlassCat594 (Mar 20, 2009)

you can seal off the sump top openings with plastic lids or saran wrap, this will help keep the outgassed CO2 in a closed system and will get reabsorbed. 

I read that on this site somewhere


----------



## jjp2 (May 24, 2008)

How are you getting the CO2 into the water? 
How do you know you are outgassing a lot of your CO2?


CO2 outgasses due to surface aggitation. If you have an overflow, or trickle filter as part of your sump, these are what is causing your issue. Reduce the distance of the water falls, best if none. 



Once that is done, you may or may not need to cover the sump. I inject and don't cover my 135 which is 72x18, keep my CO2 at 30+ so its not all about surface area.


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

I am putting the co2 straight into the tank via a inline CO2 Reactor. The sump is a trickle type, and the over flow is falling about 2inches I plan on fixing that is week end.


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

ok so here is the idea to redo the sump what do you guys and gals think. Do you think this will help with the gas off issues. I think this will help with the trickling of the water. 

Attached Thumbnails


----------



## Wicket_lfe (Aug 21, 2008)

I adjusted my sump so that there was lil splashing. the inflow from the tank can go into a larger pvc tube to stop the waterfall splashing effect. Also if you decrease ur output to the tank, you can avoid any trickles over baffles. The flow will still go the way you want, just without splashing.


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

Wicket_lfe said:


> I adjusted my sump so that there was lil splashing. the inflow from the tank can go into a larger pvc tube to stop the waterfall splashing effect. Also if you decrease ur output to the tank, you can avoid any trickles over baffles. The flow will still go the way you want, just without splashing.


So you think the set up would work then?


----------



## kid creole (Dec 25, 2008)

goalieman59 said:


> So you think the set up would work then?


I think it would help a lot. I think the part you have to pay the most attention to is the inlet and floss on the left side. You want to create as gentle an entry to the sump as possible. On the left, I think you are going to drip through floss, as opposed to the bio media that you will rise up through without air. A slight angle on the outlet side of the bio ball area could reduce the waterfall effect there.

Covering it is a big deal as well.


----------



## kid creole (Dec 25, 2008)

Plus, I don't think that one baffle coming down in the middle is really doing anything.


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

kid creole said:


> Plus, I don't think that one baffle coming down in the middle is really doing anything.


so you are saying like this, and I was thinking about replacing the floss with a filter sock, and make the tube longer so it sits in the water.


----------



## kid creole (Dec 25, 2008)

goalieman59 said:


> so you are saying like this, and I was thinking about replacing the floss with a filter sock, and make the tube longer so it sits in the water.


Yup. Perfect, IMO.

Are you building it yourself? Long term, I plan to do a diy acrylic sump just like what you have here.


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

kid creole said:


> Yup. Perfect, IMO.
> 
> Are you building it yourself? Long term, I plan to do a diy acrylic sump just like what you have here.


I am building this my self I will be going tonight to get a 30g tank as the base then I will be going from there.


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

So I started the build of the sump last night, I think I will turn out great I will have to get some photos of it so you all can see what you think and tell me what you think.


----------



## kid creole (Dec 25, 2008)

goalieman59 said:


> So I started the build of the sump last night, I think I will turn out great I will have to get some photos of it so you all can see what you think and tell me what you think.


Please do. thank you.


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

Here is the sump design now.


----------



## kid creole (Dec 25, 2008)

If you wanted to hit the sponge first, before the bio media, I think you could just shift that part over and swap it with the bio media. I've also heard that it's good to force the water up through the sponge rather than down onto it.

All of the baffles that come down from the top need to not extend up to the very top of the sump, so that if the media clogs, the flow bypasses the media but stays in the sump.


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

kid creole said:


> If you wanted to hit the sponge first, before the bio media, I think you could just shift that part over and swap it with the bio media. I've also heard that it's good to force the water up through the sponge rather than down onto it.
> 
> All of the baffles that come down from the top need to not extend up to the very top of the sump, so that if the media clogs, the flow bypasses the media but stays in the sump.


the sponge is to do noting but break the fall of the water. I was talking to the guy who does all tank set and sump design to the LFS, he recommended making sure i have something to stop the churning of the water. I went to the top for the hold in the tank. if I get to the point where i dont feel safe with hints of over flow I will cut it out or make a flow hole higher in the baffle. Thanks for the feed back though I will be adding a little more silicone tonight. Do I need to silicone the bottom of the baffles?


----------



## kid creole (Dec 25, 2008)

goalieman59 said:


> Do I need to silicone the bottom of the baffles?


I would. My $0.02.


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

kid creole said:


> I would. My $0.02.


Ok thanks I will try to cut and extra hole at the top of the last baffel just to make sure.


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

Go the rest of the silicone done last night, have to do a few minor tweaks the let it sit should be ready for water on sunday.


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

Here are the pictures of the redone sump, I seem to have very little gassing off.


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

So I guess the new set up is casing a air bubble in the intake from the tank, so every so often the stand pipe gurgles. Is there any way to fix it?


----------



## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

goalieman59 said:


> So I guess the new set up is casing a air bubble in the intake from the tank, so every so often the stand pipe gurgles. Is there any way to fix it?


That happens when you have the pipe´s hole in the water or too much flow for the pipe. Try remove the pipe from the water in the sump.
I would place the pipe on an angle comming from the top and with a very small flow. The flow splashes around the water and CO2 goes with that.
The idea of "salt water type sump flow (strong)" for planted tanks with CO2 is wrong IMO.
Try play with the water circulation in the display to better keep the CO2 bubbles there.
I don´t think you need all that stuff in the sump also. I would use ceramic rings instead bio balls, if so.
You need to know 1st why you want the sump for.

Cheers.


----------



## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

I see a read sea reactor in the sump. Believe me that you will have more problems keeping your Co2 at 30ppm with that reactor than the sump!

You will need a better method of diffusion for sure.


----------



## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

If you follow the directions Kid Creole you can probably do an adequate job of limiting CO2 out gassing. 

Is the gurgling sound bothering you or are you worried that the gurgling sound is causing out gassing? Are you using the Durso standpipe design?

My sumps are just reservoirs of water, I don't use them for filtering. The flows from the tank are under water and the pump is used to inject the CO2. The outflow from the pump is directed down into the tank and enters mostly under water so that there is no initial out gassing of the CO2 in the tank. Because sumps are open top most of the time, it seems like they are better as reservoirs of water rather than filters for maintaining CO2 levels. You might be better off with a canister filter for filtering and just use the sump as a reservoir to maintain water level in the tank and to keep some equipment out of the tank. Its all just personal preference.


----------



## londonloco (Aug 25, 2005)

Echinodorus said:


> I don´t think you need all that stuff in the sump also. I would use ceramic rings instead bio balls, if so.
> You need to know 1st why you want the sump for.





SCMurphy said:


> My sumps are just reservoirs of water, I don't use them for filtering. The flows from the tank are under water and the pump is used to inject the CO2. The outflow from the pump is directed down into the tank and enters mostly under water so that there is no initial out gassing of the CO2 in the tank. Because sumps are open top most of the time, it seems like they are better as reservoirs of water rather than filters for maintaining CO2 levels. You might be better off with a canister filter for filtering and just use the sump as a reservoir to maintain water level in the tank and to keep some equipment out of the tank. Its all just personal preference.


I have a 120g planted, with the sump return line running C02 injection and inline reactor. I have no problem getting my drop checker bright green, my plants are growing nicely. I always over filter my tanks, and am adding a canister filter. Just as Sean said, my sump is used to add water volume to my set up, hide equipment and getting C02 into my tank. Sumps also make it super easy to do a water change. I agree with Echin, get rid of the baffles, put the ceramic rings in a filter sock in your sump. After doing that, if you find you can't keep the water as clear as you'd like, add a canister filter. It looks like you have plenty of sponges in the sump, I'll bet you find you don't have to add one. 

It is common to have an algae bloom when a tank has just been set up. How long has your tank been set up? I added ottos and trumpet snails to my tank when I had that initial algae bloom, took care of it in less than a week.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

goalieman59 said:


> So I guess the new set up is casing a air bubble in the intake from the tank, so every so often the stand pipe gurgles. Is there any way to fix it?


See Hoffman grugle buster.
Cannot forget a name like that.

I'd likely suggest getting a wet/dry box, then sealing it with weather tape/duct tape 2-3 layers etc, this way when the water comes down, it hits that, degases in a sealed chamber.

So it's not escaping.

It redissolves back into solution. 

Then there's no turbulence after that till the return pump in the sump = minimal degassing.

I use a slide out drip tray and reseal it if I need to change the filter pads, etc, but I rarely use the filter pad, the screen on the weir box/overflow catches most of the big stuff, then bacteria/shrimp/snails decompose the rest.

I have an Ocean clear post filter on a couple of tanks for polishing. You could add a UV somewhere also if you wanted.

The biomedias are generally the bio balls in the wet/dry section, then in the low flow sump: open cell sponge, 15 pores inch range then another 30 pores/inch. I clean those every other week depending on the tank's loading.

The sealed dry section prevents the loss I think is the key as the water comes down to the sump area.

I also suggest using hang on prefilters, they tend to be quieter, take up less in tank space, lose less gas. You can take them off and take a pic without anything in the way etc, or go back to canister etc if you want later.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

The gurgle seems like it is in the sump. you can see it bulid an air bubble in the sump then is goes back up intake pipe. This did not start until I moved the intake pipe into the water in the sump. would the gurgle buster fix this? Thanks for the advice on the CO2 reactor I was going to build a DIY reactor, this should fix the co2 injection issue. I think I am going to leave the sump the way I have it, it seems to be running and is causing now issues. Plus I dont think the wife would be very happy if I redid the sump again after just spending the money and getting this one done.


----------



## londonloco (Aug 25, 2005)

My sump occasionally does this, gurgles. Make sure the intake pipe is totally submersed. I have flex pipe on mine, to stop the gurgling, I just move the pipe around a bit, and it stops. Not sure if you have the option to do this. 

I have my reactor tied to my return pump, which is a mag 9.5 and has a flow rating of 950 gph at -0- head. With 3 feet head, I think I was at 750 gph. When I added the reactor to it, it cut my flow way down. I had to add a Korelia3 for additional flow. I wanted to try one out anyway, gave me the perfect reason to! :thumbsup:


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

So I tried moving the pipe that goes into the sump, no luck still have the gurgling.


----------



## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> I also suggest using hang on prefilters, they tend to be quieter, take up less in tank space, lose less gas. You can take them off and take a pic without anything in the way etc, or go back to canister etc if you want later.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Are you referring to an overflow box like this http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3579+3587+18358&pcatid=18358
?


----------



## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Drill a hole into the pipe about at the high water level of the sump when operating. That should allow the pipe to 'burp' and get rid of the gurgle. I use the black ribbed tubing they sell for pond use to provide a horizontal run at the end of the pipe. This seems to let the bubbles out of the pipe constantly, underwater in the sump, so there is not a large bubble escaping and gurgling.


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

SCMurphy said:


> Drill a hole into the pipe about at the high water level of the sump when operating. That should allow the pipe to 'burp' and get rid of the gurgle. I use the black ribbed tubing they sell for pond use to provide a horizontal run at the end of the pipe. This seems to let the bubbles out of the pipe constantly, underwater in the sump, so there is not a large bubble escaping and gurgling.


Sound like a good idea, I will try this and see what happens. Would this cause more surface movement of the water in the sump.


----------



## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Well, I have to guess here, qualify the answer and all that. It depends on the size hole you drill. I would estimate that a 1/8 inch hole would not cause more surface movement, and would be just enough to quietly let the air bubble out. If you put the hole where the maximum water level is during operation you will even have an extra marker for what level it is safe to top off the sump to.

If you mean the black ribbed tubing, no, the flow of water is directed across the sump underwater, rather than down into the sump, minimizing the agitation of the surface. You would not need, or want, to drill the hole if you used this idea.


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

SCMurphy said:


> Well, I have to guess here, qualify the answer and all that. It depends on the size hole you drill. I would estimate that a 1/8 inch hole would not cause more surface movement, and would be just enough to quietly let the air bubble out. If you put the hole where the maximum water level is during operation you will even have an extra marker for what level it is safe to top off the sump to.
> 
> If you mean the black ribbed tubing, no, the flow of water is directed across the sump underwater, rather than down into the sump, minimizing the agitation of the surface. You would not need, or want, to drill the hole if you used this idea.


I have clear tubing coming from the tank down to the sump, it come from the bottom of the tank down into a elbow, then turns 90 degrees reducing bushing. Then straight until it goes in clear tubing then to the sump.


----------



## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Well you can do what I am describing with the black tubing, with your clear tubing. You don't need to drill a hole. Can you make a submerged horizontal run of 4 or 5 inches in the sump with your tubing?


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

Tried that with the tubing underthe water, so I just went and put a stright pvc into the water causing some bubbling but not that much. So I finished the overflow to the sump. Then last night I also built a DIY Reactor installed it now it works fantastic.


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

Still having co2 issues on the tank have taken the standpipe up and stopped almost all the gas off in the sump. and have added a DIY CO2 reactor in line. And i still cannot get the drop checker to green. I need help.


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

does anyone have a clue.


----------



## kid creole (Dec 25, 2008)

How much CO2 are you putting in? In a 120, I don't think you should be able to see bps, it should just be bubbling quickly.


----------



## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

Is the sump covered? If it isn't you should try covering it with a piece of glass or something then duct tape the edges up.


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

I am only about 3-4bps and the sump is cover with press and seal.


----------



## kid creole (Dec 25, 2008)

You're not putting in enough CO2. All bubbles are not created equal, so I can't say that my 3 bps is your bps, but I don't even think you're in the ball park. 3-4 bps sounds like a good rate for a 40 gallon with a rex grigg reactor, not a 120 with a sump. How are you diffusing?

edit: Nevermind, I see you are using a glass diffuser. Those aren't very efficient. Crank that bubble rate up.


----------



## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

How hard is your water?


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

kid creole said:


> You're not putting in enough CO2. All bubbles are not created equal, so I can't say that my 3 bps is your bps, but I don't even think you're in the ball park. 3-4 bps sounds like a good rate for a 40 gallon with a rex grigg reactor, not a 120 with a sump. How are you diffusing?
> 
> edit: Nevermind, I see you are using a glass diffuser. Those aren't very efficient. Crank that bubble rate up.


I am not using the glass diffusor any more, I am running the co2 into a inline reactor now. letting that do the work.



SCMurphy said:


> How hard is your water?


My tank is normally around 7.2, I will check tonight. I will check both tap and tank.


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

Ok so tap pH is 7.6, and my tank is now at 6.0, about time.


----------



## kid creole (Dec 25, 2008)

goalieman59 said:


> Ok so tap pH is 7.6, and my tank is now at 6.0, about time.


If you're indicator is blue, then something else in the water is skewing the pH reading.


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

just went and looked at my tank and the drop checker is a light green color. YAY!!!


----------



## kid creole (Dec 25, 2008)

goalieman59 said:


> just went and looked at my tank and the drop checker is a light green color. YAY!!!


Nicely done. Good work.


----------



## suhail71290 (Oct 13, 2009)

*help*

wat capacity pump are u using for the return and the input to the sump....can i use a powerhead for the return line....pls help..???


----------



## kid creole (Dec 25, 2008)

suhail71290 said:


> wat capacity pump are u using for the return and the input to the sump....can i use a powerhead for the return line....pls help..???


Check into this program to answer your questions:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/5/aafeature2


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

suhail71290 said:


> wat capacity pump are u using for the return and the input to the sump....can i use a powerhead for the return line....pls help..???


I am using a 1200GPH pump. and for a input i am using a durso standpipe raised up to stop surface movement.


----------



## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Congrats on getting things dialed in. If I add another tank it will be with a sump and not a canister. The last one I set up with my own design on the sump division panels is absolutely a joy compared to cleaning canisters when needed.


----------



## goalieman59 (Dec 1, 2008)

wkndracer said:


> Congrats on getting things dialed in. If I add another tank it will be with a sump and not a canister. The last one I set up with my own design on the sump division panels is absolutely a joy compared to cleaning canisters when needed.


So True!


----------

