# Neutral Regulator, High Phosphates, and Algae



## AquaJay (May 21, 2013)

Hey Guys,

First, let me say I'm really excited to be here. I've been keeping up with some of the threads as I'm new to this whole planted tank world and decided to join today. I'm looking forward to your input and any general advice you may have for me

So here's the story, I just set up my first 10 gallon planted tank about a month ago and at first, I was having trouble getting the right water conditions since the water here in North Central Florida tends to be on the hard side. This is not necessarily bad but I'm keeping tropical fish so I'd like it to be a little bit softer but I understand the fish will adapt to a reasonable pH as long as it doesn't fluctuate. In any case, I was told this by someone who works at PetSmart but I thought to myself "my LFS would probably know more" so I decided to listen to him instead. He told me I should use Seachem Neutral Regulator 4 times the dose if I wanted to keep tropical fish in a favorable environment. Two weeks into using the product I started to see algae and I thought what could be causing it. I started looking more in depth and I found out Seachem Neutral Regulator is a phosphate based buffer, combine that with high light (3WPG), a new established tank, and dosing ferts and voila!

My phosphates are off the chart. Everything else seems normal and actually things are growing pretty well including the algae :icon_mrgr. The algae which I believe to be thread and rhizo, are most concentrated around my HC in the middle of the tank which gets the most current. I removed what thought to be a fungus off my driftwood but lately I've been thinking it might have been Rhizo and the picture below shows what's left of it after removal. Needless to say I stopped using the Neutral Regulator and now I just mix a combo of 25% RO water to 75% tap water to bring the pH down a bit and also dilute the hardness of it. Works great!

So here are my questions: 
1) What are some of the symptoms of high phosphates in a tank? I say this because my cherries seem to be extremely lethargic and just staying in one spot and I wonder if this has to do anything with it. Also, I noticed some plant melting at the beginning and some of the guys at my LFS told me this might be due to the high phosphates yet they still recommended it. They mentioned it after the fact which I was so freaking pissed off since they knew all along about the phosphate buffer and didn't bother to even warn me or anything.
2) How can I lower my phosphates and get rid of this algae. My photoperiod right now is 8 hrs a day yet the algae keeps growing.
3) There's a biofilm/surface scum which gets pretty thick if I don't remove it using the newspaper trick and I wonder if this has to do anything with it. I'm not over feeding and filtration is good but I keep getting it still. 

Here are my tank's specs and water parameters as of today:

Tank Size: 10g
Light: 2x15W CFL's @ 6500K each (3WPG)
Substrate: FloraMax by Caribsea (same makers of EcoComplete)
Filtration: Fluval C2 10-30g adjustable flow
Fertilizers: Flourish Comprehensive (recommended dose spread over a 7 day period) , API CO2 Booster (1.5x the recommended dose)
Plants: Anubia coffeefolia, HC, Water wisteria, Alternanthera reineckii (aka Telanthera cardinalis when buy from PetSmart), Windelov Jave Fern, and Java Moss. 
Fish: 7 Neon Tetras, 2 Otos.
Inverts: ~10 Cherries. 
Water Parameters:
pH: 7.4
NH4: 0 ppm
NO2: 0 ppm
NO3: 0 ppm
KH: 5
GH: 8 
PO4: 10+++ ppm (darker than 10 ppm)

Again, thank you in advance for all of the advice and look forward to keeping up with the forum. 

Best!


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Hi AquaJay, welcome to the Planted Tank!

Most new tanks go through some period of algae growth, and if you focus on the plants, they will disappear over time.

To reduce the PO4 as well as the surface scum, do some large (50%) water changes every other day for perhaps 4-5 times, that should bring things back into balance. 

In a couple of weeks you should think about adding some KNO3 to get your nitrate levels up to 10-20 ppm, which will help your plants to grow. Also think about adding real CO2, perhaps via a sugar-yeast solution out of a (or two) 2l soda bottles. There are some guides available here and on the internet. CO2 always helps to grow greener and healthier plants, which helps in turn to eradicate most algae faster.


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## AquaJay (May 21, 2013)

Wasserpest, I appreciate your input. Yeah I've been going through a couple of phases starting with diatoms which my Otos did an awsome job in helping me clean them out. I thought about adding some N as I suspect my fish are not producing near the recommended amount to keep levels at 10-20ppm. However, I have cherries and as you know they're very sensitive so I've been sort of afraid to add some thinking it might hurt them. But I think I might have to. What about Pottasium, should I think about supplementing that as well?. As far as CO2 goes, I'm planning on injecting the tank with pressurized CO2 in the near future but right liquid carbon will have to suffice. You don't think 50% WC every other day will be too drastic? I've been doing them (50%) every week for the last 2 weeks and I thought my phosphates would be at least reading below 10ppm but I can't imagine how much there must still be left in the tank if it's still reading 10+ppm. Thanks again and I will go ahead and implement your recommendations.


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## gSTiTcH (Feb 21, 2013)

Phosphates do not cause algae. I have 12+ ppm in my tank with no algae problems. What does cause algae is an imbalance between light, fertilizers, and CO2. Specifically a shortage in any of those three legs. In your case, I think it's insufficient CO2 and the 0 nitrates causing your problem.

Regarding your fertilizers, you may want to start looking into dry fertilizers. Not only do they work out to be cheaper in the long run, but you can more accurately tailor your fert scheme to your tank. I would get KNO3 and KH2PO4, then stop adding the "Regulator" to your tank. Cherries aren't terribly sensitive, but chemicals can do some pretty nasty things to them.

The water here in Florida, hard though it may be, is great for shrimp and other fish. With your selection of stock, I don't see any problems coming from the water. If it's me, I would stop using "water adjustment chemicals" and let the stock adjust to your water. It's better for them (more stable) and better for your wallet.

Also, pH swings are not the devil. When you run CO2, it's not uncommon to have a 1.2 point drop over the course of the day.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

_I thought about adding some N as I suspect my fish are not producing near the recommended amount to keep levels at 10-20ppm. However, I have cherries and as you know they're very sensitive so I've been sort of afraid to add some thinking it might hurt them. But I think I might have to. _

I disagree about Cherries being sensitive... but besides that, NO3 if not in excess is pretty harmless even to really sensitive creatures. Of course, if you overdo it and turn your tank into brackish water then you will kill them all. But if you read some of the dosing suggestions and customize them for your situation there shouldn't be any problem. Keep in mind that more is not better, plants really need only relatively small amounts of that growing powder. If they have all the required nutrients, they will help sucking that excess PO4 out of your tank too. If NO3 is zero, then they will just sit there most of the time.

_What about Pottasium, should I think about supplementing that as well?._

Would not worry about that too much right now. NO3 is definitely the more common limitation. And, if you choose to dose KNO3 you will supply (a small amount of) K as well.
_
As far as CO2 goes, I'm planning on injecting the tank with pressurized CO2 in the near future but right liquid carbon will have to suffice. _

Yep, just a thought on the DIY CO2. I used that for a long looong time before finally splurging on pressurized.

_You don't think 50% WC every other day will be too drastic? I've been doing them (50%) every week for the last 2 weeks and I thought my phosphates would be at least reading below 10ppm but I can't imagine how much there must still be left in the tank if it's still reading 10+ppm. _

Well, that frequent water change will be the best way to bring things into balance. Also check if your tap water contains PO4 - water companies sometimes add that in rather large amounts.
_
Thanks again and I will go ahead and implement your recommendations._

You are welcome, good luck and be patient!


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## AquaJay (May 21, 2013)

Thanks guys! I had not thought of N being a limited nutrient in my tank but that does make sense. Now here's my question, I've reduced my photoperiod to 6 hrs a day and still dosing some ferts. Should I stop adding ferts during this time that I'm trying to combat algae in an attempt to starve it out? Or is this not a good idea? Any thoughts!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

1. Stop using Neutral regulator.
2. Use CO2 gas to adjust pH, NEVER anything other than CO2 to do that, ever. 
3. If you want lower KH: RO water, buy a small filter, drink the water and use the rest for aquarium changes. 
4. RCS are cockeroaches, they are tough as nails. 
5. You can use Excel for now, but CO2 will certainly make a huge difference with algae issues and plant growth, more so than the other options.


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## AquaJay (May 21, 2013)

Thanks Tom, as you know since I believe you lived in Gainesville (Go Gators!) the water here is pretty hard. Did you treat your water at all during your time here? Right now I'm using a mix of 25 RO/75 Tap and it works great (pH: 7.4, GH 8, KH: 3). Though the pH coming out of the tap is around 8.2 - 8.4 if you let the water sit for 1-2 days amazingly the pH comes down pretty significantly (about 7.6-7.8). I'm assuming it's degasing but what's the chemistry behind it? Just curious. Like you said, manage the pH with CO2 and I know that at 30ppm it'll come down about 1 degree. Having said that, should I try to keep the pH right now high (~7.8) so when I get the CO2 (which I already ordered) it'll come down to about 6.8 give or take?

Regards from the Swamp!!!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Tap was quite good in Ginaesville, I never once used RO.
Was able to grow anything.

Never worry about pH from the tap, worry only about the KH.
My KH was 3-4 degrees.


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## Sharpchick (Feb 17, 2013)

gSTiTcH said:


> ...If it's me, I would stop using "water adjustment chemicals" and let the stock adjust to your water. It's better for them (more stable) and better for your wallet...


^^This.


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