# moss rope ladder



## spypet

I devised my own crab climbable ornament by simply braiding three nylon ropes together and embedding them with Moss, thus stealing the least amount of light from my other plants while still providing an esthetically pleasing solution. I can alway remove the rock and increase planting space, I just have it there for now until the Moss fills in more densely.








*a Month Later*









this moss ladder idea is not just good for helping my crabs up above the waterline. vertically it can be used to help hide tank plumbing, hide ugly seals in tank corners, diagonally it makes a great growing surface for moss and Anubias. you can even go nuts and make a whole fishing net motif where a left behind net gets overgrown with plants and makes a nice home for fish to swim through and hide under. this "fishing net" hardscape idea is something I may attempt once I get a much larger tank.

this is also a quick way to see what moss you might like for a Wall project. using the rope ladder you can first see how your moss will grow in your tank, before committing yourself to the more ambitious project of doing an entire wall of the stuff. keep in mind the moss ladder you see in that picture is only a few weeks old and should fill out considerably over the next Month or so. virtually any plant that can grow floating or shallow roots (the assumption being that they get their nutrients from the water column), may thrive on this rope ladder with few exceptions such as Baby Tears aka Pearlweed, which for some strange reason will melt when in contact with nylon.

here's some information that helped me;

this company will sell you any width, type, length of marine waterproof rope imaginable. you can even buy one foot as there is no minimum order. they cut the rope with a high power torch that fuses the strands together at both ends. they might also sell you already braided nets by the square foot, but I did not inquire on that.



I just happened to have handy a few yards of soft 1/4" black nylon rope that I laid out ready to braid like this;










I following instructions on braiding from this sight. *men who rarely braid hair should really practice this with the rope before putting the moss in*. just keep it a bit loose while you are practicing.



when you practice whatever braid technique you like you will notice the total length of the finished rope ladder is at least 33% shorter then the loose ropes you started with, so if you want an 18" ladder you must start with a 24" set of ropes.

as you braid simply insert tufts of moss across the center as your braids naturally fold in and hold the moss in place. I prefer using Xmas moss as it's the least adhesive of mosses, is strong, and makes nice even patterns as it grows and fills out. I figure if any bald spots occur I can always undo the braid and shift the moss around. if you prefer using a thick rope and not braiding, and simply warp the moss around and tie it on with fishing line, then I suggest you use a more adhesive moss such as Taiwan. 

I used a plastic coated fishing tackle weight on the bottom, and the top a large suction cup loop that's used for holding filter return lift tubes, but you can improvise and use anything including suction cupping the bottom to the glass under your gravel. you can use fishing wire or stainless steel picture hanging wire to attach the rope to the suction cups, or simply weave them right into your rope ladder depending on how skilled you are at lanyards knots and that type of artwork. you can suction cup to your tank glass, but in my case, I cup it to the light fixture lens only since mine stays cool to touch even after being on a few hours. I guess you can always suspend some fishing line across the top of your tank and attach the top of your moss ladder to that instead.

well, there you have it. if anyone has any ideas to further enhance this concept, or it's various applications, I hope you will share it with us here.


----------



## fish_lover0591

Thanks alot For the idea! i was going to ask what that was before lol .


----------



## Storm_Rider

do the crabs instinctively know this rope is their only means of survival? i wanna do something like this too but i'm affraid the crabs will eat my fish


----------



## AlGee

Storm_Rider said:


> do the crabs instinctively know this rope is their only means of survival? i wanna do something like this too but i'm affraid the crabs will eat my fish


they will occasionally crawl all around the tank looking for a way up. so eventually they will find the rope and use it. crabs will indeed lunge for your fish, but rarely be able to catch one. only reason i havent replaced my dead crab is because im afraid it may eat my plants. my last one loved to eat hornwort and sag. i wonder if it will touch my new plants or not. i also dont want to stress out my cories with having to dodge an attack like they had to with my previous one


----------



## spypet

it's very important to only get;
Sesarma bidens _aka_
red claw crab _aka_
Thai red claw crab _aka_
Thailand red crab

FEMALE








MALE









*AVOID FIDLER CRABS - THESE ARE FISH KILLERS*








*FEMALE FIDLERS ARE MISTANKEN FOR THAI RED CLAW'S
AS THE FEMALES DO NOT HAVE THAT ONE LARGE CLAW *

Here is some Q&A with fish-lover some may find helpful;

do they like a land/water combo ?
yes, but they don't need land, just a small area to get out above water every few days. i have kept one totally immersed for a Month with no ill effect. I recommend at least having a few dense rigid plants growing to the water line such as Limnophila aromatica for them to climb, driftwood, or you can do my moss rope ladder.

what do they eat ? 
plant debris, veggie pellet|flake food, cooked veggies.
recommended water supplements: calcium, *iodine, marine salt.
*iodine is thought to help ease molting. I have already lost one crab because he could not get out of his carapace,
so this is important. also make sure there are enough secluded spots in your tank where a crab can molt unmolested.

whats the minimum tank size they will be fine in ? 
1 male per square foot of tank bottom, as many females as you like.

Where did you get yours ?
Petco

How much were they ? 
$2

Do they bite ?
no, and they have never pinched me either.

can they climb on glass ? 
no, but on larger tanks with wide lines of glue in the corner, they have been known to climb up the glue.

-they will use tall plants against the glass, and your tank plumbing to climb out and escape, so plan your tank accordingly. i do not cover my tank with a canopy, but I do have a broad tightly fitted Plexiglas guard all around where my tank tubes and wires comes over the tank lip, and I keep my water line at least an inch below the tank frame, and keep waterline high plants at least an inch from the tank glass.

How big do they get?
2 inch square

regarding these crabs alleged aggressiveness. I have timid African Dwarf Frogs, Ottos and Farlowella. I have repeatedly seen these crabs climb OVER my frogs and fish without so much as a pause to inspect what was under them. these crabs NEVER grab at nearby fish nor do they sit with their claws up and open hoping to grab something. I have a gang of endlers that like to eat the plant debris my crab kicks up and they buzz around the crab claws without the crab even noticing. the crabs will often hang around up and inside my plants looking for debris, and other fish swim right by them without a care in the world. males will briefly battle with each other when they meet occasionally disturbing a fine plant in the process, but so far after 2 Months none have lost any limbs (which is more than I can say about my crayfish). People who keep writing on the threads about aggressive crabs probably do not have this species. these crabs have a stubborn streak in them to hold their ground, so if a fish such as a pleco would push the crab out of the way, the crab may try to pinch the pleco in defense, but that's as nasty as these crabs will get. if you have other bottom feeders such as corys, loaches or eels, these crabs won't bother them, and even if the crabs in a foul mood those fish will easily get away. just be sure your tank bottom does not have too many inhabitants already competing for limited space and hidey holes :hihi: do not mix these crabs with larger crayfish as the crays will pull the crab's limbs off and eventually kill and eat the crab :frown:


----------



## AlGee

thats the type of crab i had. when he went about exploring the tank and would come close to one of my cories he would always lunge at them. maybe he was just an a-hole lol


----------



## TAF CAF

Very interesting idea! I love it. I have made wrapped moss 'ropes' for a wall around craft plastic, but when i put it in heavy bubble flow some would come loose. Braiding it in really should keep it in place.

Thanks for sharing!


----------



## spypet

I'm glad you like the idea, and I really hope people will use this thread to post their own moss rope progress. here are some additional observations I have made since starting this thread;

an added bonus to using a braided rope instead of a single rope is when any moss clumps break loose, it is very easy to simply push any loose moss back in between the gaps between each folded braid, and to also use this technique to evenly redistribute moss growth along your rope.

it's not necessary to suction cup the rope to your fixture lens. as you can see they are doing just fine adhering to the top back glass. because I have a mirror back cabinet I don't have to turn them to the light, but others may want to consider rotating their rope every two weeks if it's up against the glass like that.

moss ropes are a great idea for people with Nano tanks wanting to enjoy moss without it taking up too much valuable space. for people who dislike having moss migrate all over their tanks, a braided rope is a great way to keep it contained in one area.

in the photo I'm now trying Fissiden on the left and Taiwan on the right. Because Taiwan moss is sticker than the Xmas moss in the center, I decided to try a single rope and tie the moss on by wrapping .04mm clear fishing line around the rope. by April I hope to add a Subwassertang rope as well. I will post a progress photo in a Month or two.

to further encourage moss growth I'm keeping my water temperature in the low 70's at least till the summer comes.


----------



## dufus

I have 2 of these RCC's.
They like to crawl out, especially into Hob filters.
I put mine into a 10 g terrarium a while back, they love it, in and out of the water.
But, they are both male, they fight alot, but never hurt each other.
i got 3 videos of them fighting-


----------



## spypet

July'07 Update

since this thread's been getting a lot of attention lately
I figured it was over due for an update, so as promised
here is my progress with other plants on a rope;

this is about a foot long section of _poorly photographed_
xmas moss, Subwassertang, weeping moss, and fissiden
the weeping moss just got started 2 weeks ago, so it will








be a few Months till it fills out, and hopefully weeps down.










this is my third batch of Xmas moss up close that takes
2 Months to really fill in between harvests. Taiwan moss
grows in very similar, though noticeably denser than Xmas.
here I used 3 braded ropes and tucked the leaves inside.










this Subwassertang was touch and go for a while since
my tank probably does not have the best water chemistry
for it which is why it's more brown than emerald green,
but it ultimately took hold and filled out nicely after 3 Months.
here I used a single rope and fishing line to tie on the leaves.










the Fisseden was slowest to acclimate, but now that it's
used to my tank, it's filling in very nicely. the darkness 
are not diatoms, it's just the shady way it seems to grow.
here I used 3 braded ropes and tucked the leaves inside.










When I take photos of my fish, they always run and hide,
but when I photograph my plants, my fish always seem
to get in the way! since my pearl gouramis insisted on
being in the shot; I figure he deserves 15 minutes of fame...










a minor update to my rope technique is to use the nylon ribbon
garbage ties typically included with electronic equipment, then
simply tie the top of the rope, then clamp the tie wire up and
over the lip of your aquarium. this makes it easier to shift the
ropes left and right when compared to using a suction cup.
as always, I use a simple plant weight on the bottom of each
rope to keep it pointing straight down. I experimented with
the ropes diagonally and horizontally, but I always return to
the vertical position in order to maximize other plant space,
and my 2-5" fish best enjoy weaving between them vertically.
fortunately none of my fish _including SAE & Flag_ pull the ropes.

my ultimate goal is to get a nylon fishing net, mount it diagonally,
then infuse it with my favorite moss like plant, but unfortunately
I still cannot afford a tank large enough to pull this off properly.
For now I'm content to keep playing with different roped mosses.

I'm starting to experiment with aluminum wire to add rigidity to
nylon rope so I can bend it into any shape I want. I will update
on my progress with this in a few Months... stay tuned


----------



## Storm_Rider

the fissiden rope looks amazing! the new idea seems interesting, shame it'll probably be months before we see full results


----------



## Naja002

Very Nice, Spypet. Great Idea. Hope the aluminum works out well--will make the entire concept much more versatile.....roud:


----------



## mickey85

That's pretty freakin' cool. I can see an entire tank planted with just those ropes. It'd look like a freshwater kelp forest!


Another idea for connecting them...what if you used egg crate as the cover for your tank, then just tied them to that? Just an idea...


----------



## spypet

thanks Mickey, but what I do when I want to suspend a rope away from the tank sides and don't have anything above to suction cup it to, is to use acrylic rods similar to the 5/8" square rod shown in this photo. I'm using it here to suspend my 24" Orbit over my 30" open top tank. It looks classy and does not block any of the light. The only downside is if you have climbers like crabs, you are only making it easier for them to escape. when you cut the rod with a hacksaw to fit, always bevel it slightly and measure an extra 1/16" longer than the gap you wish to span. that way the rod will fit snug and tight in your tank frame, and won't shift around even when it bends under weight.

here are some examples where you can get cut acrylic rod on the web, but
I prefer to buy scraps long enough for my tank at a local plastic goods store.
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/570-92065
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXSL38&P=7










I wish I could grow Subwassertang better as that "freshwater kelp forest" motif was actually what I was going for. I'm curious to see if the S-tang will continue to grow denser, or grow further away from the rope, since further away would really give the kelp forest effect I'd be looking for. I recommend anyone who's S-tang grows emerald green and pearling in their tank, to go ahead and try this rope idea, as it will look glorious!

Storm - technically I could take an existing grown in rope and simply shove the aluminum wire inside thus having an already grown out form, however the growing patterns toward my light source would not look as authentic as had I started from scratch.


----------



## tpl*co

Are you still braiding the Subwassertang, weeping moss, and fissiden in the rope or are you attaching it by some other means? That is so cool and I may have to try it on my shrimp tank.

Tina


----------



## eklikewhoa

That Fissiden rope looks awesome!


----------



## AlGee

Love the subwasserthingy and fissiden ropes. Also love the idea of kelpy forest. Refreshing and innovative idea in what, to me, seems to have become a creatively stagnant hobby.


----------



## spypet

AlGee said:


> Refreshing and innovative idea in what, to me, seems to have become a creatively stagnant hobby.


awww Algee, what a nice thing to write, thank you :redface: 
now you've inspired me to show off my next original DIY project here on PTF.
it's my "rock string ornament" which I hinted to on another thread last Month.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/428849-post13.html
Some day I'll get more clear photography work done, so I can post a new DIY thread,
that I hope will inspire more people to "think outside the box" errr I mean tank


----------



## TAF CAF

Okay... I finally did it!

Of course, the first one looks terrible. I tried kinda laying long strips of moss along the string as I braided... not good. Maybe it will fill out later, but I have a bad feeling I will have to undo that one. I guess it really _is_ important to braid in little tufts instead of laying it along the string.

The next 5 got better and better. I even braided some little baby java ferns into one!


----------



## spypet

Since this thread has kinda doubled as a Thai Red Claw Crab resource,








I'd like to answer some questions in public I got PM'ed for your benefit. 

_1. Do I need to cycle the tank for them?_
maybe - crabs get hyper sensitive right before and after they molt, and when you buy crabs you never know when that period is, so I would cycle at least 2 weeks before risking it.

_2. Are you adding salt to your tank? _
yes - but only 1 teaspoon every 5 gallons.
despite what many post, I have found that half of all fine leaf plants may melt at 1 teaspoon every 2 gallons.

_3. Are you conducting water changes and adding salt afterward?_
yes - but the fewer animals in your tank, and better filter media system you use, the less often you need to water change after the first Month of new tank cycling. keep track of the water you change including the water lost during canister filter service, so you keep the salt replacement ratio consistant, but don't panic if you make a minor salt over or under as most of your fish and plants are forgiving of such things. remember to never add salt to the water you top off simply to replace evaporation. since crabs appreciate the iodine to ease molting, you can use table salt, but it's preferred by most, especially for your plants sake, to use marine salt which includes useful trace ferts, and then dose the iodine separately.

_4. Do they eat your plants!?_
generally no - but I have found that plant location and type is key. don't plant anything within an inch of the glass or an inch around the base of rocks and wood. crabs like feeling something behind them as they move, so if plant stems are in their way along the very surfaces they keep their backs to, they may cut down those plant obstacle's they find along their preferred sidewalks.
crabs will eat plant dead plant debris, but they occasionally mistake soft hollow stems and feather leaf plants as debris, so avoid soft hollow stem plants such as Anachris, and feathery leaf plants such as Cabomba and Myriophyllum. these crabs are not diggers, so don't worry about your foreground carpet plants, as long as they are out of their one inch _crab sidewalks_.

a new tip for anyone combining crabs with my moss ropes;
try to position the rope top and/or water flow where it catches some of your plant debris left floating at the water surface. the crabs love to munch on such debris while they are above the water line taking a breather.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

since I'm posting here, I may as well update you on my latest moss rope projects;









weeping moss - second Month of filling in but moss still not weeping. I will update when it does.
used single rope with fishing line tie down.

Fissidens splachnobryoides - just started a new rope, will update in 2-3 Months.
used three braided ropes with plants stuffed between the braid seams.

japan marimo ball cladophora - just started two new ropes, will update in 2-3 Months.
rope 1 - sliced the ball surface into long strips, then lashed them along a single rope with fishing line.
rope 2 - soaking a rope coiled around the bottom of a small glass container full of clado spore from the balls center. later to be transfered to a regular planted tank once clado growth on the nylon is observed. if nylon is found to inhibit growth, I may try a tan color natural fiber manila or sisal rope.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

a dozen people have PM'ed me regarding doing their own moss ropes. 
please don't be bashful, and post clear visible progress photos here.
be patient, it takes a good 3 Months for your ropes to look presentable.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

FYI: here is the fine clear fishing line I prefer using;
this same seller has fine clear line in different weights.
for lashing, 1lb is fine. for hanging & lashing, 4lb is best.
for hanging rock string ornaments, you must use 10lb line.
careful to order the Trilene Clear, not the Blue by accident.


----------



## tpl*co

Hey Spypet,

Tried doing a couple of ropes on my shrimp tank last night and it looks awsome :icon_mrgr ! I can see my shrimp now and they couldn't wait for me to lower the ropes all the way before they came and investigated them. Looks so much better having the different types of ropes (I have the fissidens and that sub... stuff too) Then having the plants all over the bottom of the tank. We'll see if I attached it tight enough though. I did it pretty losely so as not to damage the leaves. I used a small quartz rock to weigh down the line.


----------



## dufus

I've found RCC don't *need* salt, mine in my terrarium are fine w/out it.
they do like to munch dead plants, and will eat some plants.

mine seem to spend more time out of water than in, and they are very stubborn escapees.


----------



## Ukrainetz

hey guys. Great idea spypet, the moss ladders are an ingenious invention! I am going to make one (or two) for the 125Gal I setup, but was wondering if any of you guys know whether its ok to use Nylon/Polyester rope...Its the only kind I could find without ordering online, and it's called "Twisted Nylon Rope" from Lehigh (got it at wallmart). On the back it says "100% Mixed fibers: Nylon, polyester." I'll also be using regular Java Moss for this project, as the fancy aquarium store did not have any other kind. I'd love to get the right stuff but just don't have much time left...trying to get this project done!

BTW spypet, you're right about the RCC munching on debris. When I started having problems with smaller fish getting sucked up into the overflow, I made some netting (out of that mesh potato bag  ), and put it around the overflow. It has since been trapping a lot of things, including food. The crabs use this place on a daily basis to get out of the water, and have a snack :hihi:. Its very easy to get to from the driftwood and the return jets. I'll try to post some pics of it here soon.


----------



## spypet

Nylon and Polypropylene are both petroleum product plastics.
they are completely aquarium safe. select fine stem plants
will melt when in contact with plastic, but not any mosses.

Ukrainetz; since your TRCC already have a way to get up to
the surface, be patient with the ropes as it may take them
a few weeks to discover and utilize them on a regular basis.


----------



## Ukrainetz

Perfect, I will start the project asap and post pics! Thank you


----------



## cleekdafish

omg awesome im gonna do this:icon_eek:


----------



## Crystalview

spypet said:


> I'm starting to experiment with aluminum wire to add rigidity to nylon rope so I can bend it into any shape I want.


Have you gotten anywhere with the posing of the rope and wire? I wanted to make an arch with either weeping or fissiden. Wanted to check on your progress.


Would it be ok to share a copy of this thread with my fish forum? Please advise Thanks


----------



## Kelley

Spypet,

How are your rock string ornaments progressing? I would love to know more about them! 

Kelley


----------



## Black Adam

New to the site, but this was the first DIY project that caught my eye, it's bloody brilliant.:thumbsup:


----------



## spypet

see next post


----------



## spypet

over the next few Months, I will be trying new ropes such as
Coir, Sisal and Manila * - which biodegrades the slowest,
in hopes another rope medium will grow my moss even better.
I hope to achieve more even new moss growth distribution
without the interior moss browning and bruising as much.

Ideas that I have delayed working on were; using aluminum
wire to bend rope to keep any shape, and the marimo rope.

In the meantime, I came up with another moss growing idea.
We'll call it a Moss Bundle. I take a bit of my UV protected
1/2" clear mesh, fold it, stuff some moss in, then sew it up.
mount it on your glass with suction cups, or hang it vertical.
remember, it's not rigid, so it can be twisted into any direction,
so I could insert an aluminum wire inside later, to hold a form.

As always, I'll post a progress photo in a few Months on this
and also quantify any benefits of using different rope types.

If anyone has done their own rope moss projects,
I would enjoy it if you post a photo for us to see.

*using f.fontanus*



















*using flame moss*



















* I was advised by a natural rope specialist to *avoid;
Cotton, Hemp, Flax* rope materials for such a project.


----------



## Madfish

I have a Fissiden rope statring to grow in. I stated it about a month ago in my low light low tech shrimp tank. I will get some pictures posted on here in the next day or so. Its a great idea that you have and keep up on the great ideas. My shrimp just love you.


----------



## frozenbarb

Dude spyet lol your are like Moss diy crazy.

The new style is fire. Where could i get that uv clear mesh?

You could as well turn your tank into a moss net


----------



## spypet

Madfish, a month is not enough time for Fissidens. It took me at least 3 Months for my rope to fill in attractively. Turning the rope around and/or upside down every Month may help even out it's growth.

Frozen, here's an idea I had, but didn't have a chance to try yet. say you have a shrimp only breeding tank. you could lay this netting to horizontally cover most of your tank area about halfway up the tank glass height, held up by nothing more than a dozen airline tubing suction cups. this makes a sort of split level tank, with the bottom shaded bare gravel with shrimp foraging, and the middle layer of netting, peppered with moss as the ideal place for shrimp to get away, munch on algae, and for fry to hide from their parents below. 

so instead of a moss wall, think of it as a moss hammock or moss trampoline. the advantage is you get to observe a lot more shrimp behavior without the over crowding, while keeping your moss off the dirty gravel sticking bottom of your tank, and because it's closer to the light, it will probably grow better too. because the gravel will be in shade, you might get to observe more nocturnal shrimp activity while the lights are still on. and don't worry, 1/2" holes are large enough for even a berried adult female to slip through. 

this is just an idea I was kicking around, so in case anyone reading this wants to try it, please go for it! just be sure to share your pictures here for all to enjoy. check my signature, as I sell this mesh netting by the square foot, and can include a few feet of clear fishing wire upon request.


----------



## Madfish

I was thinking of something like that a few months ago. A shelf in the tank would work out great. Its more surface area for the shrimps to go around but I never really thought about using a net for it covered in moss.


----------



## Crystalview

Interesting!
a shelf or bowl like fissiden might work to breed and protect my German Blue Rams. They love to pic at it also. With small suction cups that might make a neat hammock. I would love a piece of netting


----------



## kunerd

Just last month I took all my moss in my 29g cherry tank and moved it to my spray bar that is maybe 1/3rd of the way down from the top. Anyway I moved all my moss to it and its been great. All the shrimp now seem to swim up to the moss to play and like you said it looks greener since its closer to the lights.


----------



## spypet

I finally got some cheap 5/8" Manilla rope from;
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&viewitem=&item=120192487648&rd=1
5/8" is much larger than I need, so I unwound the
three main strands to create 3 separate moss ropes.
You can use a hack saw or serrated sheers to cut it.
I then crimped 4cm of aluminum modeling wire to
each end to keep the rope from unwinding further.
This rope should be water logged outside of your
tank for a day, then it will actually sink on it's own.

I'm definitely doing a Subwassentang rope with it,
also F.Fontanus, then maybe stringy or spikey moss.
as usual, it takes a few Months for these projects
to bare photographs, so please be patient. Manilla
is a great plant attaching medium that will take years
to biodegrade, so I can imagine a lot of possibilities.
the ribbing makes it easy to insert moss bits to start.

I may try binding the moss with either cotton thread
or caging it in my 1/2" mesh, that I will remove later
once the moss takes better hold of this rope than nylon.
The idea of all this is to find a rope that moss likes to attach
to, and minimize moss frond bruising and breaking away,
and perhaps encourage the moss to distribute more evenly.
My black nylon rope has worked, but maybe this is better.
over time, I'm not concerned if the rope unwinds further,
I'm more concerned that any exposed parts will become
a magnet for algae, so I'll cover it completely with moss.


----------



## Crystalview

I saw the manilla rope in my small town ACE but was leary of it being orange and what the dye would do.


----------



## spypet

mine appears tan as in the tank shots. those blue background close ups were taken without flash in low light, so the orange color is deceptive. I can't speak for all _Manilla_ named rope of course, but most are simply treated with a bit of vegetable based oil during the winding process. other than that, they are natural, and I have not seen any tannins, oil slick, particles, or adverse fish and plant reactions since introducing it to my tank last week. Manilla rope is specifically used at water fronts, cargo netting, and in outdoor decor, so it has centuries of outdoor water and sunlight exposure history under it's lash. obviously if you see Manilla rope that's painted or waxy, I would be suspicious about using that. mine has a dry somewhat prickly texture.


----------



## A Hill

Alright spypet, 

You're crazier than me I believe this is official now:hihi: 

I may try the hammock idea soon because I'll be redoing my 55g but I think there will be a 'gap' where it will have lots of plants taken out but not taken down and redone yet.

Good work!

-Andrew


----------



## spypet

oh goodie, when you do a hammock, I can mail you my clear 1/2" mesh as
payment for your moss. just PM me the exact length & width you will need.


----------



## A Hill

spypet said:


> oh goodie, when you do a hammock, I can mail you my clear 1/2" mesh as
> payment for your moss. just PM me the exact length & width you will need.


All right sounds good. It will be somtime around Christmas maybe that monday?

I keep meaning to clean the tank out figure out what is still living, then take that out and get it all redone, but I might get an ADA tank not too sure (probly not though) If I could find the right one for the space I have.

So I'll let you know.

-Andrew

PS, the willow moss come back from the dead yet? The section in my 10g has some really nice new growth. its a VERY slow grower though. I'll probably put the rest of the willow like that in one of the hammock things


----------



## leoslizards

This is a great thread with a truly awesome original idea! Thanks Spypet! 
I still want to see how the shaped ropes come out.


----------



## Crystalview

*Your using f.fontanus in these pics I can't count how many wide the netting is*





















Ok I have been swearing at the 1/2" mesh netting for weeks now. How many squares wide do you use to sew the moss into it? It looks narrow is it? I am going to use the Subwassentang but I need more so I am on the looking out for some again. Do you have updated photo's of this project yet? Love to see them.


----------



## spypet

well, I was not going to update yet, but if you want some progress, here's what's new thus far.

the manila rope does in fact biodegrade very slowly. from the photo you can see it hosting 2 different types of slime after only a Month in this tank. however I have not put any moss on them yet, so perhaps when I do this issue won't matter as the rope hosts it's own little ecosystem of bacteria microorganisms and plants, namely the moss itself. but for people who don't want to add much more to their bioload, then I'd stick with nylon. I'll be adding moss to these manila ropes in a few weeks to see if they grow or attach any different than the nylon.

Regardless, I'm keeping some manila in my tank as I want to see if it shows any sign of falling apart like coconut does after 4-6 Months. at least coconut fiber does NOT host this kind of slime. This slime may also be my fault, as this particular stem tank is not kept as clean as it should be. I'll clean the rope off with hot water and a H202 soak, clean my tank thoroughly, and start over to see if the slime reappears in another Month.










with the 1/2 clear mesh with moss, the f.fontanus has not grown much since it's still acclimating to a new tank. however the flame moss one is doing better, as flame moss is a faster grower than fissidens. Crystalview, as for how thick to make it, I would just experiment with anything 3" wide before you fold it, so the contents are held in place, but not so tight that portions get their light blocked and die. one negative of this horizontal net idea instead of vertical rope, is that anything horizontal accumulates more tank debris than vertical, so if you want to keep things clean, keep them upright. as much as I wanted to do this with Subwassertang, my tank does not grow it well, so I'm not going to bother with it until I can afford compressed Co2; _moss may not need Co2, but I'm getting lazy, so I need compressed Co2 to deter algae and to help lower the pH in my moss tank._










_thank you autofocus gods for such a good shot of a male Brachygobius aggregatus_

*leoslizards* - I'm sorry I have not worked with the aluminum shaping rope idea, but I only have a few small tanks, and not enough room for my current project ideas to do them all. I would suggest trying it with flame moss, which grows relatively fast and because it grows to toward light, it will make any shape you form more interesting.

*Fish Newb* - you ready for me to mail you some netting? PM me if yes. I'm sorry your willow moss didn't make it  but I now appreciate what you mean by that moss being finicky, and have greater respect for people who do grow it successfully _as I do for people who grow Subwassertang well_.


----------



## capricorn77

Spypet,
I have been following this thread with great interest, with the hope of emulating what you've been able to do so successfully. 

I do have a question that I hope you can help answer:
When you let the moss entangled rope hang vertically, do you find that the moss at the top tend to grow faster and more robust than the ones closer to the substrate? 
If so, how do you make them grow so evenly? 

Thanks!


----------



## Crystalview

I have mine attached to suction cups. I rotate up/down/side to side when I change the water weekly.


----------



## A Hill

Spy thanks for the updates! 

I will need some near the end of the month. I'll be taking down the tank slowly then redoing it, in the between time I'll just have moss on these mesh sections after I set my tank back up (There will be a complete substrate switch and cleaning to get rid of the planaria) When I set the tank back up more than half of it will be leaf litter, I'm going to put the mesh on suction cups and put it over the leaf litter section. 

Kind of confusing:icon_roll 

Spy whats your experiences with H2O2 and Clado on moss? The H2O2 killed the willow what about others? I might try and save the giant clump of Taiwan but not too sure thats possible lol.

-Andrew


----------



## spypet

Fish Newb said:


> Spy whats your experiences with H2O2 and Clado on moss? The H2O2 killed the willow what about others? I might try and save the giant clump of Taiwan but not too sure thats possible lol.


Taiwan's pretty tough. you can even use 20:1 bleach, but only dip it for 30 seconds, not an entire minute. the algae should turn
red or white, and dissolve away in a few weeks. The only stuff such dip treatments have ruined was Subwassertang and Willow,
but of course your results may vary. I guess it has to do with how _meaty_ the moss is, so a finer moss, may be less vulnerable to dip.

Fish Newb's stringy left, spikey right - _red and gray fuzz is algae I just killed with H202 that has yet to dissolve away._












capricorn77 said:


> When you let the moss entangled rope hang vertically, do you find that the moss at the top tend to grow faster and more robust than the ones closer to the substrate? If so, how do you make them grow so evenly?


Crystalview's idea to turn it upside down every Month is good, if you are growing a multidirectional moss such as Taiwan or Xmas. If you are growing something UP like stringy or flame, or DOWN like weeping or spikey, turning it would defeat the purpose of enjoying the directional nature of the moss. from my observations, the middle half of the rope enjoys the best growth, as the top quarter actually gets light on an angle, and the bottom quarter's light gets blocked by other plants. obviously my observations are due to the way my light fixture is positioned, and that my tank is not fully dedicated to moss, so I expect other peoples results to vary. That's why I wish more people would post their results on this thread once their ropes are 3-4 Months mature.


----------



## frozenbarb

FIshnewb moss looks alot like willow moss.

The fonds on that moss is too big to be stringy


----------



## spypet

frozenbarb said:


> FIshnewb moss looks alot like willow moss.
> The fonds on that moss is too big to be stringy


this is actually my second stringy moss project, the first stringy coming from another source 6 Months ago, so I recognized it as stringy right away. my observations are stringy moss gets branchy when grown on a vertical surface, while on a horizontal surface it grows thicker in long narrow chains. It may have to do with some programming the moss has in nature to maximize the light exposure each new series of frond can get.

Willow moss has a MUCH larger frond than the spikey moss pictured on the right (in my previous post photo), with each frond looking very much like a green colored long grain rice kernel. the spikey moss in my photo is denser than Taiwan or Xmas, but the fronds are about the same size. the weight of that increased frond density may be responsible for helping it weep on me. another observation is how each Willow moss leaf come out in alternating spots, while most other moss have leafs that come out from the common stem on opposite sides from each other.

to clarify, I am no expert at identifying moss, I'm simply stating the identities from what people say they are in trade, and other first hand experience.

stringy moss grown off a horizontal surface;


----------



## loachlady5

Awesome:thumbsup: New project here I come!!!


----------



## A Hill

frozenbarb said:


> FIshnewb moss looks alot like willow moss.
> 
> The fonds on that moss is too big to be stringy


Stringy's fronds are one of the largest on any moss I've seen outside of the Willow family.

That moss was sent to Loh K L to be IDed by the Prof. Biento and it is indeed stringy. It can show all kinds of growth styles besides that classic straight up one you expect. It will branch very nicely sometimes as well...

You're probably thinking of 'nano moss' which I only have a couple strands of that is very delicate and small, hoping to collect some more this year 

As for willow its next to impossible to grow. The good news is that willow I sent you Spy is starting to do well in my 10g its grown an inch or so in the past 5 months:hihi: 

Here are some willow moss pictures...

Granted most I have are OOW but it still shows the differences!


























No doubt my favorites, but they just like to waste away and die on me NOT an easy moss to grow.

-Andrew


----------



## spypet

perhaps once your willow moss has acclimated to your tank,
it will survive distribution to other people's tanks as well.
your willow is big and beautiful, and I hope to have another
chance to grow it myself once I get compressed Co2 to help
me keep it algae free. I think if you photographed it against
a $100 bill, it would look a lot greener :flick:


*01/21: here is the spiky moss a week after bleach dip;*


----------



## A Hill

spypet said:


> perhaps once your willow moss has acclimated to your tank,
> it will survive distribution to other people's tanks as well.
> your willow is big and beautiful, and I hope to have another
> chance to grow it myself once I get compressed Co2 to help
> me keep it algae free. I think if you photographed it against
> a $100 bill, it would look a lot greener :flick:


It seems to have, it is also just a very slow grower the gigantea species and one of the smaller species I'm growing in my 10g.

Those pictures are before they died on me due to not keeping good care of them. They are very easy to find in the local rivers, streams, and creeks so I plan on collecting and not killing more this year...

I may try that photography advice!

-Andrew


----------



## pawslover

spypet said:


> Nylon and/or Polyester are both petroleum product plastics.
> they are completely aquarium safe. select fine stem plants
> will melt when in contact with plastic, but not any mosses.


polypropylene OK?


----------



## spypet

pawslover said:


> polypropylene OK?


yes. actually the rope I use is made out of polypropylene.
my spell checker probably turned it into polyester, sorry.
you usually see it called Nylon or Poly rope, but pretty
much any inert water stable petroleum product is fine.

I corrected that original quoted post thanks to you roud:

while I still dabble with natural fiber rope, I have not
found any that hold together and will not biodegrade
while submerged in fresh water.

coconut fiber rope is remarkable at resisting degradation,
however it will fall apart into a pile of fibers after 6 Months.

I'm currently looking to find a sample of _Raffia_ rope
in hopes it might have all the qualities I seek. 

If anyone has some untreated Sisal rope laying around
from their cat, I would not mind playing with a few
feet of that one too, though I doubt Sisal will resist
biodegrading any better than Manilla did. You don't
even have to send it to me; simply submerge it in a
container of old tank water for a Month, and let me
know what happens.

I suspect Manilla rope holds up better in Salt water,
that's why it remains so popular with mariners.


----------



## Crystalview

Andrew what does your nano moss look like. I guess I missed reading about it.


Spy, I have some raffia that I use in crafts. What size would you need and how long? I is not rope per say but could be woven so.


----------



## spypet

*anyone hungry for my moss filled doughnuts?* :hihi:

I found that mounting my mesh moss bars in a circle, not only saves on suction cups, but it helps keep the moss from growing right up against the glass, thus being deprived of reflected light. I also notice when the mesh moss bars were up against the glass, I was seeing decaying plant debris accumulate there, and interfere with the mosses natural growth patterns. since the moss and mesh are neutrally buoyant, it stays in place horizontally even with good water flow. the gaps allow other stems you may have still growing below to get light, and grow tall between these mesh doughnuts. in a few Month once the moss fills in more, obviously I'll have to reconsider what to do with this tanks stem collection. I adjusted the height halfway between the gravel top and the water line where I seem to be getting my best growth given my tank layout, water flow, and lighting. my goal is to achieve optimal growth patterns in each moss, with minimal brown spots and algae. I could have reinforced these rings with some aluminum wire to define any closed shape I want; such as circle, square, hexagon, but I'm fine with these loosely shaped triangles for the time being. other advantages of this method compared to nylon rope is how I see far less moss break loose around my tank bottom, and any dead moss drops out the bottom of these mesh rings and biodegrades in my gravel, thus separating itself form all the healthy green moss growing above. my fish seem to love swimming in and around these rings, and they catch some food for the mid/top swimmers to enjoy, before the bottom feeders hog it all on the gravel bed. at night some fish actually sleep right over and against the moss, like it's their bed or nest.


*some of my other moss being farmed into mesh doughnuts*










*those two new rings in back will be spiky (to see it weep) and stringy (to see it go straight up);*

















*flame moss filling in right before a trim;*











*the same moss after a trim - notice no brown spots;*










*my painfully slow growing fissidens fontanus coming in nicely*


----------



## Tabatha

I've been following and enjoying this thread immensely, great job and great ingenuity! Can't wait to see what you do next!


----------



## Madfish

I really like the moss rings you got there. They look like they are really filling in nice. I now have a moss rope so now I have to try the ring idea that you have. How do you ever come up with ideas like that spy?


----------



## ikuzo

nice moss ring, you are indeed creative. i'm interested with the bleach dipped moss, how did you do it without killing the moss?


----------



## ZooTycoonMaster

This is all I could do:









Did I do something wrong?


----------



## frozenbarb

Lmao you try that though it looks funny. Im thinking would work better with a thicker rope. But since Spypet was banned... We wouldnt know. 

Havent view this thread in a long time. Spypet really created some cool stuff
like Moss everything. Especially the ropes those are really hot and nice DIYs. That he only showed on the TPT.


----------



## ZooTycoonMaster

He's really banned? I thought that was just a joke custom message:icon_frow

Maybe if it doesn't grow well I can always go to Plan B and make a moss covered PVC Pipe or coconut....


----------



## Crystalview

If I used that size rope I would use one strand and lay mold the moss around in and then wrap it around with fishing line. If you wanted it thicker you can glue the rope pieces together and then lay the moss and wrap the fishing line. 
My concern with the way you have it so loose the moss may float away when bumped. It took mine a time to fill in but I do like them.


----------



## Jace

I want to get some of those crabs now


----------



## fishscale

You can still talk to spypet over at APC.


----------



## leoslizards

fishscale said:


> You can still talk to spypet over at APC.


APC?


----------



## neilfishguy

aquaticplantcentral.com


----------



## honor

wow, that looks amazing.


----------



## Hilde

spypet said:


> "rock string ornament"
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/428849-post13.html


I love the idea. I have a bag of lava rock and would like to do that to hide my powerhead. How did you get the string through the rocks. How did you get the rocks to stand up? I was thinking that I would have to glue the rocks together.


----------



## DarioDario

Hilde said:


> I love the idea. I have a bag of lava rock and would like to do that to hide my powerhead. How did you get the string through the rocks. How did you get the rocks to stand up? I was thinking that I would have to glue the rocks together.



Spypet is no longer on PTF he is banned. I think he is over at APC

I imagine he drilled a hole in all the rocks and tied the string off at the top that held the rocks up


----------



## renown

sorry if this is off topic, but i am very much interested in the moss rope idea. my original plan was to have a tank full of shrimps, primarly wood shrimps. i like the idea of having a crab in the tank and as spypet said, these crabs are harmless unless agitated- but does that rule still hold with shrimps?


----------



## leoslizards

IT LIVES!!!
The thread that is.

Interesting question renown. I would think the shrimp would just run and hide if provoked. Mine do, but then again, they're just 1" ghost shrimp and not 3" Singapore wood shrimp. I'd love to have some wood shrimp but I think my clown loaches would eat them and I'm not willing to risk $8.00 a shrimp.


----------



## chad320

not to change the subject, obviously you do beautiful work, but what are the plants with the fluted leaves in the 1st and 2nd pics? are those aponogeton longiplumulosis?


----------



## knm<><

okay, i love the moss rope idea and plan on making one or two for my planted 55 but, i think the burning question here is, what happened to spypet???


----------



## sewingalot

chad320 said:


> not to change the subject, obviously you do beautiful work, but what are the plants with the fluted leaves in the 1st and 2nd pics? are those aponogeton longiplumulosis?


Crinum_calamistratum?


----------



## Black Adam

knm<>< said:


> okay, i love the moss rope idea and plan on making one or two for my planted 55 but, i think the burning question here is, what happened to spypet???


Banned


----------



## Alexpatrascu

Wow, this moss rope thing is awesome....


----------



## Guns286

Did I help to re-start this thread again? Good. I think SpyPet came up with a GREAT idea. Good luck to those who give it a try.


----------



## familyman03

Awsome concept would look really nice in a taller tank say 30+" and with some stem plants i.e java fern or anubias throughout it will try and update when I do


----------



## Hilde

Black Adam said:


> Banned


He is no longer banned.


----------



## PC1

Very cool idea. I will be doing one or 2 in my 150


----------



## Hilde

PC1 said:


> Very cool idea. I will be doing one or 2 in my 150


I would like to know how you anchor it.


----------



## Chrisinator

I did this exact same thing a few years ago. It held up for quite a long time and the moss and shrimps loved the ladder. I put a cork on one end and tie a rock on the other so that it floats and stays underwater at the same time.


----------



## guppygolucky

GENIUS!!!! I'm gonna to try it out!


----------



## alan j t

awesome idea


----------



## guppygolucky

Would cotton twine work?


----------



## Karackle

Well since the suggestions in this thread were the inspiration for my 5g moss tank, I thought I would share what I created yesterday after about 3 hours of work :hihi: 

It doesn't look so hot right now because, as I say, I made it yesterday, but here are some pictures:

My basic supplies:









Moss wall:









Moss "column" - sort of a hybrid of the rope ladder idea and the sideways mesh encased moss idea:


















And a moss cave:




































Everything in the tank:


















More details can be found in the 5&10g thread 

Thanks for the inspiration!!!


----------



## bigboij

should turn out pretty cool


----------



## Hilde

Karackle said:


> Everything in the tank:


I don't understand the necessity of having 2 moss columns on the side.


----------



## Karackle

*bigboij* - Thanks! I hope so!!!

*Hilde *- certainly there is no necessity, I simply had a LOT of moss and thought they might look cool. That's pretty much how I operate with planted tanks anyway, is any of it "necessary"? Of course not!  (save good water quality so the fish aren't being tortured). Is it fun? OF COURSE!!! roud:

**edit** Hmmm I was just looking at the picture again, perhaps it is unclear from the picture that the columns are NOT directly up against the moss wall, rather, they are about 1/2 way between the back and front walls of the tank. If you look at the second picture from a more "above" angle you can sort of see this better :thumbsup: Does that better answer your question *Hilde*?


----------



## bigboij

looking at it some more, i would move up the columns, and tunnel a bit their layout now is a bit to symmetrical


----------



## Karackle

bigboij said:


> looking at it some more, i would move up the columns, and tunnel a bit their layout now is a bit to symmetrical


I hear what you're saying, I chose this layout for now though so that everything could get maximum light until the moss grows in some, and then I figured I can play with the layout. But I didn't want any of the elements to shade each other and slow the growth, so I think I'll leave it symmetrical for the time being at least. I tried to add the anubias and crypt to make it a little more interesting, but let's face it, until the moss grows in, this tank is gonna look pretty boring no matter where the columns and cave are :hihi:


----------



## Baadboy11

Cool lookin, can't wait to see it grown out!


----------



## Karackle

Baadboy11 said:


> Cool lookin, can't wait to see it grown out!


thanks, me neither :hihi:


----------



## Guns286

*Moss Vine*

So, here's what I did with this whole idea. I have a large wood stump that I'm going to add to my 75g. I'm going to add some moss, or somethng else, to certain areas of it but one thing I wanted was to add something that looks like a vine, wrapped around the trunk of the wood. 
I found thin nylon rope, used 3 lengths of it to create a triple braid, and braided moss into it. After a few weeks, here's what it looks like.

















Of course, the closer it is to the light, the faster it is growing. So, the bottom half is'nt as filled in as the top half. I may have to string it out accross the top, about an inch or so below the surface.
All in all, I think it's comming along good. I'll trim it back alittle, let it grow in fuller, and in no time I'll be adding my stump, with the rope wraped around it.


----------



## jedimasterben

Bringin' this back up. :hihi:


----------



## diwu13

I think spypet has left :'(


----------



## babydragons

I realize this is a very old thread, but I would love to try one of those net ropes. Does anyone know where I can find netting like that?


----------



## jedimasterben

babydragons said:


> I realize this is a very old thread, but I would love to try one of those net ropes. Does anyone know where I can find netting like that?


I found some 1/2" bird netting, I think that's what it is, at Home Depot. It is a freakin' ginormous roll of it (like 4' x 10' or something ridiculous), but it was only $8 here. I'm just gonna use that, just cut it to fit.


----------



## babydragons

thanks!


----------



## DennisSingh

Karackle said:


> Thanks for the inspiration!!!


If you get this growing nicely its gonna be awesome.


----------



## chomper149

has anyone tried to use this method to grow lawn or carpet of moss on the bottom by stringing multiple ropes on the ground?


----------



## diwu13

chomper149 said:


> has anyone tried to use this method to grow lawn or carpet of moss on the bottom by stringing multiple ropes on the ground?


Why not just use stainless steel mesh to carpet moss on the ground? You'd have to secure the rope in multiple areas whereas the stainless steel mesh weighs itself down.


----------



## hedge_fund

Great thread!


----------



## ugn

Just ordered me some steel mesh and mosquito netting to try this.. 
About the rope, is nylon the way to go? Is that what last the longest under water before it "crumble" to pieces?


----------



## diwu13

ugn said:


> Just ordered me some steel mesh and mosquito netting to try this..
> About the rope, is nylon the way to go? Is that what last the longest under water before it "crumble" to pieces?


Nylon hasn't broken down for me, or at least to any noticeable extent. http://www.strictlyfish.net/tropical-fish-supplies/nylon-aquarium-carbon/ takes SUPER long for nylon to degrade in a freshwater aquarium.


----------



## ugn

Thanks, will order some nylon then  (Any idea on how thick it should be? Too thin and it will just look retarded  )
Btw, the link didn't work..


----------

