# Lush Growth Without CO2, is it possible?



## Trickerie (May 10, 2012)

So, 

Ive been contemplating a dwarf puffer tank, densely planted. However, I want to try it low tech with no CO2. Is it possible? All of my serious planted tanks are injected, so I want to try something different. Lights, low light? Ferts, NPK and micros at water change only? Active substrate? How about gas exchange, lots or little surface agitation?


----------



## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Hello, yes it's possible. It all depends on the light. You can dose as you wish keeping in mind build up vs water changes. It's a slow metabolism so it won't need too much.

I can't post pics from the mobile version so I encourage to look at my 6gal nano:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=169143

Lots of surface agitation WITHOUT splashing. 6hrs of light maximum.

I can give you more details if you want.



Hope this helps.


----------



## Trickerie (May 10, 2012)

Thank you! I'd like as many details as you can provide. I'm trying to research all that I can on a lush low tech setup. I'm planning this on a 20g L, so I'm also looking for suggestions on suitable equipment, especially a fixture


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Trickerie,

Yes, growth is slower and less ferts are needed as is a good cleaning crew. This is my 10 gallon Apisto breeding setup (w/ 'loveshack') it has 2X10 watt screw-in CFL's.









BTW, stop at toojay's and have a corned beef sandwich for me!


----------



## jbrady33 (Jun 7, 2012)

check out this thread 
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=99729


----------



## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Plant as heavy as possible, most plants will do ok. 
With an active substrate you may be able to skip dosing.
Adjust the light distance/time to match the co2 provided by the atmosphere. Too much = algae and or deficiencies. Some plans need more than others.
Make sure there is plenty of surface agitation, you need to avoid surface scum. IME.
Low maintainance means very few inhabitants or just inverts and good filtration. IMO.

That is what I do. What I exactly do I that tank won't really apply to other tanks tho.


----------



## BBradbury (Nov 8, 2010)

*Low Tech, Planted Tanks*



Trickerie said:


> So,
> 
> Ive been contemplating a dwarf puffer tank, densely planted. However, I want to try it low tech with no CO2. Is it possible? All of my serious planted tanks are injected, so I want to try something different. Lights, low light? Ferts, NPK and micros at water change only? Active substrate? How about gas exchange, lots or little surface agitation?


Hello T...

I have heavily planted, low tech tanks and it's definitely possible to have healthy plants without the added "bells and whistles". All you need is a well stocked tank of non destructive, non plant gulping fish and a source of the "trace elements".

Lighting is pretty easy. You need a couple of 6500K, T5 bulbs or a little more than a watt of light per gallon of tank volume and you can grow quite a large number of low to moderate light plants.

I have larger tanks and emerse land plants in the tank as well as keeping the standard aquatic ones. My tanks are full of plants.

B


----------



## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Lighting is based on PAR, not watts per gallon. Watts per gallon is sorely outdated for a number of reasons. Click here for an explanation.

Your tank doesn't have to be well-stocked in order to grow plants, either.

As others have said, it's easy to get lush growth without CO2. I'm a fan of nutrient-rich substrates but if you can't get your hands on something like ADA Aquasoil or Azoo Plant Grower Bed, you can use root tabs. If you don't have high lighting and don't grow super-demanding plants, you may never have to dose anything in the water column.


----------



## Trickerie (May 10, 2012)

I'm thinking only 1 male and 3 female puffers for inhabitants. Lots and lots of plants. Other than that, maybe some shrimp of they aren't devoured by the puffers 

And Toojays is awesome!! Had a cheesecake at a bday party they made a few weeks ago, in fact 



Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Trickerie,
> 
> Yes, growth is slower and less ferts are needed as is a good cleaning crew. This is my 10 gallon Apisto breeding setup (w/ 'loveshack') it has 2X10 watt screw-in CFL's.
> 
> ...


----------



## BBradbury (Nov 8, 2010)

*The Old "Watts per Gallon" Rule*



somewhatshocked said:


> Lighting is based on PAR, not watts per gallon. Watts per gallon is sorely outdated for a number of reasons. Click here for an explanation.
> 
> Your tank doesn't have to be well-stocked in order to grow plants, either.
> 
> As others have said, it's easy to get lush growth without CO2. I'm a fan of nutrient-rich substrates but if you can't get your hands on something like ADA Aquasoil or Azoo Plant Grower Bed, you can use root tabs. If you don't have high lighting and don't grow super-demanding plants, you may never have to dose anything in the water column.


Hello some...

I've heard the "Watts per Gallon" rule is outdated. But, so am I, I guess. I could never get a handle on the "PARs thing. Anyway, this rule, though a little old, can get you close to the target amount of watts needed to grow the majority of aquarium plants available that require up to moderate lighting.

I used it and just got a couple of T5, 28 watt bulbs in my 55 G tanks. Just plain, old pea sized gravel substrate. The fish provide the bulk nutrients and I dose a little liquid micro nutrient source once a week when I do a water change. As long as I avoid the "higher end" plants, the standard plants get all the nutrients needed.

Good post, thanks!

B


----------



## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Not trying to argue with you but no, the watts per gallon rule cannot get you close to a target amount of lighting.

It depends upon the depth of the tank, the power of the bulb, the kind of reflector you're using, whether it's an LED, a T5NO, T5HO, T8 Metal Halide, CFL, et al. 60 watts of T5 on a tank that's 10" deep is a lot different than 60 watts on a tank that's 20" deep.

Click the link I provided in my comment. Here it is again. It's a great, easy to understand resource about PAR and the non-rule of watts per gallon..


----------



## exv152 (Jun 8, 2009)

The PAR method is just too complicated and convoluted for the average joe aquarist. And I don't have $300-$400 lying around to invest in a meter that will get used less than a handful of times (usually when setting up a tank). And buying two meters to convert lux to par just seems too complicated. I'm old school and as scientifically accurate as that method may be, I need something more practical to calculate light intensity, something that can be calculated in my head at the store, or when surfing the internet. As flawed as watts per gallon is, I just go with that and adjust accordingly (adjust the height of the light, the amount of bulbs in use etc) based on how the plants reacte. 

As for a low tech planted puffer tank is concerned, I would plant it very heavily because puffers are inquisitive type fish and need to have their line of sight diverted from their fellow tank mates to control aggression. Plant heavily and with low light plants, keeping the pH just above 7.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi All,

His question was about being able to grow plants without CO2; I don't think he was looking for a lighting debate.


----------



## izabella87 (Apr 21, 2012)

Trickerie said:


> So,
> 
> Ive been contemplating a dwarf puffer tank, densely planted. However, I want to try it low tech with no CO2. Is it possible? All of my serious planted tanks are injected, so I want to try something different. Lights, low light? Ferts, NPK and micros at water change only? Active substrate? How about gas exchange, lots or little surface agitation?


You've asked just the question i needed 
~ let's avoid CO2 explosion and do it natural way!
Awwww puffers are sooo cute!!


----------



## Trickerie (May 10, 2012)

I've got non injected tanks, but none of them are meant to keep plants. Lighting is one thing, but this is more about techniques in keepin plants lush without co2


----------



## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

I forgot to mention this, I kept 6 dwarf puffers before and the feeding makes a lot of mess. They poo a lot to, very intense metabolism. 
I would try to have sandy substrate at least in a section of the tank to feed live tubifex worms. That way worms will dig into and hopefully live there been a constant source of good between meals( they get mean when hungry, females are looking for food 24/7). They coexisted with amanos and kuhli loaches for about 6-8 months and then after a water change suddenly decide to kill all of them, leaving only tetras. 
They may need some bottom feeders like corydoras that are shielded tanks, lol! Messy eaters this puffers! I don't know if they will attack them too tho.

I'm saying all this because you are going to have a lot of N compounds with them, so plan on a LOT of filtration to avoid ammo spikes and such. Same with surface scum, which is also a problem for o2 in low light tanks. 

If I was short of budget and I was gonna set up a puffer tank I would consider the biggest hob I can fit in there, and maybe a supersized sponge filter run by an air pump or some sort of splashing.

Just a suggestion bro.


----------



## michaelracer (Jul 29, 2011)

heres my dwarf indian puffer tank with 6 indian dwarf puffers, 3 otos and 4 amano shrimp, recently re-did it and trying to grow a carpet, no injected co2 just ferts,


----------



## Trickerie (May 10, 2012)

20 long is all I can realistically fit. Anything else would be too tall or too long. I have about 33in x 16in x 15in to work with. I already feed black worms to my frogs, so maybe I should try culturing them. I always go overboard with filtration so that won't be a problem


----------



## Amy9 (Jul 4, 2012)

After doing some snooping around about puffers and planted tanks, I was told by numerous sources that they will most likely destroy plants. One person who kept them described them as little "weed eaters" lol. He said that even though they don't eat plants, they are ravenous eaters and destroy not only their surroundings, but sometimes each other during feeding. Anyone else with similar experiences?

...sorry Trickerie...not trying to hijack, just following along


----------



## Trickerie (May 10, 2012)

Amy9 said:


> After doing some snooping around about puffers and planted tanks, I was told by numerous sources that they will most likely destroy plants. One person who kept them described them as little "weed eaters" lol. He said that even though they don't eat plants, they are ravenous eaters and destroy not only their surroundings, but sometimes each other during feeding. Anyone else with similar experiences?
> 
> ...sorry Trickerie...not trying to hijack, just following along


Never really heard this, unless they are confined to a space simply too small and become territorial. If given snails to hunt, and a good supply of worms I dont think there should be a problem. In fact, the dwarf puffers natural habitat are densely planted. And how dare you hijack!! JK


----------



## Eldachleich (Jul 9, 2011)

Its completely possible to have lush growth without Co2... Most plants grow beautifully without a lick of Co2...
I can't tell you how many beautiful low tech tanks I've seen.
Most of them didn't even dose.
Just a nutrient rich substrate.


----------



## Pooky125 (Jul 30, 2002)

MyImage_13 by minnesotapooky, on Flickr 

I'm gunna go with yes as well. I don't dose, my lighting is pretty abysmal by most people's standards, but I'd qualify that as pretty lush. Mind, I HAD just pulled out about a dozen pieces of bolbitus, so, it's actually a little thin here, compared to what it had been.


----------



## Trickerie (May 10, 2012)

Very nice tank. Looks like you could house some great blackwater fish in there. Resembles a riverbed very well to me



Pooky125 said:


> MyImage_13 by minnesotapooky, on Flickr
> 
> I'm gunna go with yes as well. I don't dose, my lighting is pretty abysmal by most people's standards, but I'd qualify that as pretty lush. Mind, I HAD just pulled out about a dozen pieces of bolbitus, so, it's actually a little thin here, compared to what it had been.


----------

