# Canadians using Black Shot II



## coldmantis (Aug 17, 2010)

I wanted to redo my 40g breeder soon. Since I can't get rid of BBA, before anyone says to check co2 and paramenters all is in checked but it keeps coming back. I'm using Netlea Plant Soil(think ADA) but it buffers closer to 5.5ph or so. The Substrate is of course very old, maybe 6-7 years old and no longer buffers. I'm sure it's the substrate causing BBA, since it's so old there must be a lot of organics build up. Has anyone tried this substrate, it's by Bell & Mackenzie and it's called Black Shot II #20 grit size, I'm sure it will work for plants but I'm worried it might be bad for inverts (MTS and Amanos). Any canadian's use it?


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Do you have any idea what material it is made from? Some types of shot are made from metals and other materials that would be hazardous.

Added: Never mind I would say definitely not good. http://kwikmix.com/assets/MSDS-sheets/MSDS-Black-Shot-II.pdf

I think you would be looking for silica sand.

Dan


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Coal slag isn't much of a problem black Diamond (used a lot) seems to not be problematic..
worry about about the nickle slag in it though..


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

not to mention the massive amount of iron oxide.

Dan


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

now I have some question I would like to clear up but going to start another post on it.

Dan


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## coldmantis (Aug 17, 2010)

This is what my tank looks like currently. I spent like an hour or so scrubbing off all the bba from the dragon stones and fluval 406 intake and output. I still have to scrub the ehiem 2217's pipes. I lost alot of plants when I did tore it down a month ago and did a bleach dip.









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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

coldmantis said:


> This is what my tank looks like currently. I spent like an hour or so scrubbing off all the bba from the dragon stones and fluval 406 intake and output. I still have to scrub the ehiem 2217's pipes. I lost alot of plants when I did tore it down a month ago and did a bleach dip.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks great to me. I get your concern over BBA personally still not convinced its the substrate but that sure doesn't mean it isn't. 

Dan


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## coldmantis (Aug 17, 2010)

Dman911 said:


> Looks great to me. I get your concern over BBA personally still not convinced its the substrate but that sure doesn't mean it isn't.
> 
> Dan


hmm If not the substrate what else can it be? This tank is very mature like 6-7 years, equipment wise it has gone from:

1 Ehiem 2217 -> 1 Ehiem 2213+2217 -> 2x Eheim 2217 -> Fluval 406 + Ehiem 2217 - Flow wise I think it's more then enough it's only a 40g breeder
Canister filters are cleared every 4 months, but lately I been cleaning every month to 2 months due to BBA and organics.

Lights has remain the same Odyssea quad T5HO, bulbs changed every 8 months to 1 year always 6500k, just yesterday I decided to change 1 bulb out for a Geissman Super Flora

Substrate has always been 2.5 bags of Netlea Brown plant soil, I orginally bought this soil with the intent to breed CRS but realized the tank is way to big and I won't see any of the shrimp

Heater has gone from Rena 200w -> 300w -> Ehiem Jager 150w

Co2 has always been Milwalkee regulator and the diffusers I gone from Rinox Glass diffuser -> Up aqua inline mister -> the green one with bioballs -> istal max mix -> Jaqno Co2 Reactor -> Back to up aqua inline mister -> diy Cerges co2 Reactor

Fertz has mostly been PPS pro (old formula with the micros being dose 1ml per 10g instead of the new 0.1 per 10g), I did try EI dry dosing for a few months but didn't like to do big water changes, since I have like 7 other tanks to take care of.

Feeding has always been the same I feed once a day on monday, wednesday, and friday.

I find that I get an outbreak of BBA whenever I uproot plants to sell. Because of this though I decided to do a tear down a month ago and I gravel vac the substrate which is like impossible because it's soil base and just creates a mess. Took like 3-4 days for the tank to clear up, I even added 2 filters stuff with filter floss making it 4 filters to clear up the tank faster.

This is what the tank looks like at it's peek in 2013, Cardinals I started off with 60 or so they should be 6 years old now and I have 6 left out of the 60, harlequin tetras I started off with 40 and they all died maybe last year or so.

tank in 2013


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Do you have a pic of the tank today or recently? I know you talked about Co2 being good but some people report BBA with high Co2 although with most low Co2 and also fluctuating Co2 so I know you didn't want the question posed but have you made consistent changes to Co2 over this period? When was the last time your drop checker fluid was replaced?

I can suggest a couple things that may help determine if it is your substrate/excess dissolved organics. Add purigen or chemi pure to your filter they are effective at removing dissolved organics. Do a 50% water change each week and give it 1 month to see the results. I would suggest purigen personally. I don't by into the whole carbon removes nutrients from the water to an extent it will impact plants so you could add that if you want also although it is costly and not renewable. If your BBA slows down or is gone you likely have your answer. I'm not saying it's not your substrate but rather I think you can fix it without changing it. So in a sense its not your substrate if that makes sense. 

Unless your like me and when I want to change something its easier to find a reason why I should but if you truly don't want to I would give that a try.

Dan


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## coldmantis (Aug 17, 2010)

Do you have a pic of the tank today or recently? I know you talked about Co2 being good but some people report BBA with high Co2 although with most low Co2 and also fluctuating Co2 so I know you didn't want the question posed but have you made consistent changes to Co2 over this period? When was the last time your drop checker fluid was replaced?

the pic on post 6 was taken yesterday, as for consistent co2. It is my PH is 7.6, after lights come on it's 6.6 when lights turn off it's about 6.4. I don't dare play with co2 because I know flutuation co2 causes BBA, I have experienced it before with other tanks that I was tweaking. Drop checker solution was replaced when I did the tear down a month ago.


I can suggest a couple things that may help determine if it is your substrate/excess dissolved organics. Add purigen or chemi pure to your filter they are effective at removing dissolved organics. Do a 50% water change each week and give it 1 month to see the results. I would suggest purigen personally. I don't by into the whole carbon removes nutrients from the water to an extent it will impact plants so you could add that if you want also although it is costly and not renewable. If your BBA slows down or is gone you likely have your answer. I'm not saying it's not your substrate but rather I think you can fix it without changing it. So in a sense its not your substrate if that makes sense. 

Before I did a complete tear down a month ago, I was doing 50% water changes either once or twice a week for 2.5 months. I'm not sure if purigen will help since with the big water changes I managed to get my TDS to around 170 which is about 20 higher then my tap. I know my TDS was over 300 before due to organics so I think purigen won't do much since I got most of it out with big water changes.

Unless your like me and when I want to change something its easier to find a reason why I should but if you truly don't want to I would give that a try.

Dan


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

coldmantis said:


> Do you have a pic of the tank today or recently? I know you talked about Co2 being good but some people report BBA with high Co2 although with most low Co2 and also fluctuating Co2 so I know you didn't want the question posed but have you made consistent changes to Co2 over this period? When was the last time your drop checker fluid was replaced?
> 
> the pic on post 6 was taken yesterday, as for consistent co2. It is my PH is 7.6, after lights come on it's 6.6 when lights turn off it's about 6.4. I don't dare play with co2 because I know flutuation co2 causes BBA, I have experienced it before with other tanks that I was tweaking. Drop checker solution was replaced when I did the tear down a month ago.
> 
> ...


Well I can't point directly to the substrate you may correct about the dissolved organics, to much food, over stocked, dirty substrate, dirty filter etc. changing substrate may fix it or simply help if it was caused by something else. 

Did you reduce your micro's? I didn't quite understand in your previous post

A couple other options: 

1.Have you tried dosing excel? Often times people will double dose and report improvement.

2.SAE's eat BBA not a root cause fix but if there is only minor amounts they should keep it well under control.

Dan


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## coldmantis (Aug 17, 2010)

Well I can't point directly to the substrate you may correct about the dissolved organics, to much food, over stocked, dirty substrate, dirty filter etc. changing substrate may fix it or simply help if it was caused by something else. 

Did you reduce your micro's? I didn't quite understand in your previous post

Yes I agree sounds a little confusing when I mentioned the old method, I have been using the new dosing 0.1ml per 10g for the pass 6 months

A couple other options: 

1.Have you tried dosing excel? Often times people will double dose and report improvement.

Yep Excel, Metricide. I did the 1-2 punch at least 6-8 times in the pass year or so, dosing 2-4 tablespoons Hydrogen Peroxide per 10g and 5ml of excel/metricide per 10g after water change, lights off, filters off, powerhead on leave it alone for an hour or two then water change 30-50% after.

2.SAE's eat BBA not a root cause fix but if there is only minor amounts they should keep it well under control.

I had SAE before they died after maybe 4-5 years I think I had an army of algae control stock, maybe 40 amanos, 10 octos, and 4 SAE. I been trying to source SAE locally but it's crazy hard to find now.

Dan


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

coldmantis said:


> Well I can't point directly to the substrate you may correct about the dissolved organics, to much food, over stocked, dirty substrate, dirty filter etc. changing substrate may fix it or simply help if it was caused by something else.
> 
> Did you reduce your micro's? I didn't quite understand in your previous post
> 
> ...


Is that a new type of micro fert or a change to the dosing by reducing the amount?

The addition of algae eating stock won't fix the root cause but can sure make it easy to live with. Honestly for minor algae issues I consider it a viable solution but would not say its an actual fix.

Dan


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## pauliewoz (Sep 22, 2015)

If you're still looking to replace your substrate you can find something similar as Black Diamond blasting sand at the TSC stores.

http://www.tscstores.com/50LB-KE-ENVIROBLAST-SANDBLASTING-SAND-P4428.aspx#.WVKlrNkpDqA

They also have safe-t-sorb, which is what I'm using.

As for finding SAE, in your profile it shows you're from Scarborough. Have you checked Big Als on Kennedy Rd? I've seen them there quite a few times.

When I had BBA that I couldn't control that's what I did. The SAE made it disappear in just 3 days and it hasn't returned since. I know that getting fish or shrimp to control algae is frowned upon, but sometimes it's the only thing that will work. 



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## coldmantis (Aug 17, 2010)

Dman911 said:


> Is that a new type of micro fert or a change to the dosing by reducing the amount?
> 
> The addition of algae eating stock won't fix the root cause but can sure make it easy to live with. Honestly for minor algae issues I consider it a viable solution but would not say its an actual fix.
> 
> Dan


Same fertz just reduced to 0.1ml per 10g instead of 1ml per 10g.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

coldmantis said:


> Same fertz just reduced to 0.1ml per 10g instead of 1ml per 10g.



That's possibly the issue. Try increasing the micro's back to 1ml/g and give it a few weeks to a month to see if it helps. Remove the BBA as much as possible and look to see if its continuing to come back. You will need to allow time to see if there is a difference but if after a couple weeks if its coming back in the same amounts you observed recently then I would say it would not be the cause. I wouldn't change to much at one time as this can create all sorts of havoc and you will likely not find your answer as to the cause but I would start here.

Dan


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## coldmantis (Aug 17, 2010)

Dman911 said:


> That's possibly the issue. Try increasing the micro's back to 1ml/g and give it a few weeks to a month to see if it helps. Remove the BBA as much as possible and look to see if its continuing to come back. You will need to allow time to see if there is a difference but if after a couple weeks if its coming back in the same amounts you observed recently then I would say it would not be the cause. I wouldn't change to much at one time as this can create all sorts of havoc and you will likely not find your answer as to the cause but I would start here.
> 
> Dan


Let me clearify, I only changed the dosing for plant colour because I decided to add more red plants. I been fighting BBA for 2+ years now, micro change is not the cause since I had BBA issues long before I change dosing. As you can see everything you suggested I have tried, if the roles were reverse I would of suggested the same thing you have suggested. I litterally tried everything and can't think of anything else but the substrate being the issue. This is not the only tank I have running, I have 8 other tanks running and none of them have BBA issues because they are using inert subsrate. A few years back when BBA started to happen I was pulling my hair out trying to figure out why, after a few months of trial and error I realized or what I thought was the cause. I been using the waste water from my R/O to do water changes and top ups. I though because of the high TDS in the waste water which is not actually that high, if I recall maybe around the 200 TDS mark that it was causing the BBA due to eventual buildup of TDS in the tank. I stopped using waste water and just use plain tap for over a year but the BBA did not stop, so thats why a month ago I decided to do a tear down, I have done everyhing else that I can think of. I appriciate your suggestions Dan, If I can't figure it out even if I decide to change the substrate. I guess it's an excuse to shut it down and start over, but this time I'm going to drill the tank and use a sump. I have been curious for years now on how a high tech planted tank with do with a sump.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

coldmantis said:


> Let me clearify, I only changed the dosing for plant colour because I decided to add more red plants. I been fighting BBA for 2+ years now, micro change is not the cause since I had BBA issues long before I change dosing. As you can see everything you suggested I have tried, if the rolls were reverse I would of suggested the same thing you have suggested. I litterally tried everything and can't think of anything else but the substrate being the issue. This is not the only tank I have running, I have 8 other tanks running and none of them have BBA issues because they are using inert subsrate. A few years back when BBA started to happen I was pulling my hair out trying to figure out why, after a few months of trial and error I realized or what I thought was the cause. I been using the waste water from my R/O to do water changes and top ups. I though because of the high TDS in the waste water which is not actually that high, if I recall maybe around the 200 TDS mark that it was causing the BBA due to eventual buildup of TDS in the tank. I stopped using waste water and just use plain tap for over a year but the BBA did not stop, so thats why a month ago I decided to do a tear down, I have done everyhing else that I can think of.


Rip out and replace the substrate? Lol

I'm sorry I'm at a loss now. There are some members here that may have a better idea or be able to confirm your thought of substrate. After all this I would probably do the same and rip it out and start new as you suggested.

Dan


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## coldmantis (Aug 17, 2010)

Dman911 said:


> Rip out and replace the substrate? Lol
> 
> I'm sorry I'm at a loss now. There are some members here that may have a better idea or be able to confirm your thought of substrate. After all this I would probably do the same and rip it out and start new as you suggested.
> 
> Dan


Actually I replaced all the substrate on August 4th. Since then there has been 0 bba. However I don't particularly like this black shot 2 and since it's the long weekend I'll probably change the substrate again. But at least I know I was right and it was the substrate.

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