# Planning a 160 Gallon Tank



## colinlp (Dec 26, 2009)

Hi everybody!

I could do with some advice, the more I read the more confused I get and I seem to have gone 2 steps backwards rather than forwards. I will be getting a new tank in a few weeks, 68" x 30" x 24" lit with 4 x 58W T8s and a 48" x 18" x 18" sump. The main inhabitants will be discus along with some Tetras, Rams and a clean up crew. I would like to create a loose Amazonian biotope with Amazon swords E.Tenellus and some other similar plants, although I have no objection to adding Crypts etc if they are needed.

I would like to do this in as a low tech fashion as practical with no CO2 but is this practical? I think so after seeing this tank by Byron. With the extra depth I have is my lighting enough? Will I need CO2 to get the plants to grow to a size that would fill out the back of the tank?

There will be automatic water changes each night in the region of 10 - 25%. I have read that low tech tanks don't need many WCs but some people do will this lead to any problems? Is it enough to have plenty of substrate and use fert tablets under plants like Echinodorus?

If no CO2 is possible how long should by lights be kept on approximately? Ball park - 12hrs - 8hrs - 6hrs?

I'm sorry if that all sounds like I want you to do it all for me but I'm just not sure if it is possible/practical. I'm frightened of ending up with a tank that wont grow and equally I don't want one that needs loads of attention as getting to the bottom of a deep tank is dificult at my ripe age!!

I currently have a 240L tank with CO2 and a Fluval edge that is low tech, both tanks doing well thanks to reading the PT forum :icon_bigg

Any help would be very gratefully received.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Your plan sounds quite do-able to me. Though I'd probably add a row of T5s or 2 more rows of T8s to increase your lighting. The lighting as planned puts you REALLY on the low side. If the rows are controlled with different switches this will allow you to "dial in" a perfect photoperiod. I'd start off with about 8 hours/day and adjust from there as needed.

I think you can make your water change regimen work. If you go with a nutrient-rich substrate or at least one with a high CEC, stick with more rooted plants than stems, it sounds like a good setup.

You might also consider some Vallisnerias as background plants.


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## colinlp (Dec 26, 2009)

Cool, thanks! We might have a plan.

Yes I can certainly add more light, Ill have to check with the people making the tank to see how much room there is left with the 4 Arcadia reflectors I have asked for. I suspect it will be 1 T5.

I had thought about making 2 rock edged terraces to raise the planted area up from a bare sand area a couple of inches to try to reduce the amount of uneaten food getting into the plants and missed from the daily clean. This could be filled with a good thick layer of substrate. Would that overcome the need for water column feeding?


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## colinlp (Dec 26, 2009)

Would I be better off swapping the 58W T8s for 80W T5s?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

colinlp said:


> I had thought about making 2 rock edged terraces to raise the planted area up from a bare sand area a couple of inches to try to reduce the amount of uneaten food getting into the plants and missed from the daily clean. This could be filled with a good thick layer of substrate. Would that overcome the need for water column feeding?


You could do that. Depends on how you set up the tank. Stick with mostly rosette plants (Swords, Crypts, etc), Java ferns, Anubias, etc rather than nutrient-hog stem plants and you should minimize the amount of water column dosing you'll need.


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## Byron (Aug 20, 2009)

I think you will have more than enough light with the 4 tubes, maybe too much at that. I'm glad you saw my tank photos; those tanks, even the 115g which is a foot shorter than yours, only have 80 watts total of full spectrum light, two 48-inch T8 tubes. And my tanks are 24 inches deep, yet I can easily grow chain swords on the substrate under overhanging swords and floating plants. As Tom Barr pointed out the other day in another thread, the less light the better, and I fully agree. First, you intend discus, and discus come from very dim waters and will be much more relaxed and free of stress in less light; floating plants to shade any light over them is advisable. Second, plants do not need so much light, as both Tom and Diana Walstad have pointed out and my aquaria clearly demonstrate. I won't bore you with more on this, but can if you have any questions.

Byron.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

colinlp said:


> Would I be better off swapping the 58W T8s for 80W T5s?


What you want to think about more than anything else when designing lighting for a tank this size is the distribution of the light. If I'm reading your dimensions correctly, your tank is 30" wide, so you'll want to space out the rows of bulbs several inches from each other to obtain better front-to-back light coverage. So you're going to need at least 3 rows of bulbs. The wattage isn't the issue so much as the length of the bulbs to match the length of your tank.

If you are able to put each row of bulbs on a separate switch, this will allow you obtimum light control to "experiment" and "dial in" the ideal combo/photoperiod for your tank.

I'd probably go with 2 rows of T8s and one or 2 rows of T5s, each on separate switches.

Keep in mind I'm talking about T5NO, not T5HO. Adding any T5HOs into the mix will push you well over the top of "low light."


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## colinlp (Dec 26, 2009)

The tank is 30" deep and 24" wide Laura. The T8s are 60" long so just about full length, I'm not sure how long the 80W T5s are but somewhere in the same I'm sure. I had planned on running the 4 lights in a cycle working back to front with a period when all 4 were on together. I'm thinking of putting a moonlight in there too, for no other reason than I think they "can" look nice, we'll see. 

Byron! I really like your tanks, I came across them when I was reading up on this and it's exactly what I would like to achieve. Please feel free to bore me to death, anyone, I need the input/knowledge as I don't have the experience. I take it you don't do huge water changes? I'm worried about these as the nitrates will be kept quite low, am I likely to have a problem here?


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## jjp2 (May 24, 2008)

If you are leaning toward the low to mid light with java fern, crypts, anubias and swords, you will have plants shading other plants no matter what type of lighting you use so having ground cover plants may be tough unless you keep things very neat and trim.

the T5HO 80w are 60 inches. If you used these, you likely would have 2 bulbs and mount them 6 inches apart so you get good spread across the 24 inches.

I would try the 4x58w T8 and see how much coverage and light that gives at the bottom before switching them out. With these you might be able to run all 4 at once without much issue or concern.


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## Byron (Aug 20, 2009)

colinlp said:


> The tank is 30" deep and 24" wide Laura. The T8s are 60" long so just about full length, I'm not sure how long the 80W T5s are but somewhere in the same I'm sure. I had planned on running the 4 lights in a cycle working back to front with a period when all 4 were on together. I'm thinking of putting a moonlight in there too, for no other reason than I think they "can" look nice, we'll see.
> 
> Byron! I really like your tanks, I came across them when I was reading up on this and it's exactly what I would like to achieve. Please feel free to bore me to death, anyone, I need the input/knowledge as I don't have the experience. I take it you don't do huge water changes? I'm worried about these as the nitrates will be kept quite low, am I likely to have a problem here?


Thanks very much for the compliment. I've had tanks like these running for 15 years, some of the Echinodorus are still the same plants. It is very easy.

I do weekly water changes of 50% and always have. Not sure I comprehend your issue on nitrates; in thickly planted tanks nitrates should always be low, many have zero, my nitrate is 5ppm consistently probably because I have a lot of fish. Plants prefer ammonium as their source of nitrogen, not nitrates, in case you were thinking that low nitrate levels would be detrimental for the plants.

My view on light is that it should be the absolute minimum necessary to provide what your plants need and no more. This satisfies the needs of the fish, because most of the fish kept in planted tanks are forest fish that occur in waters that are not brightly lit and they will be more relaxed and free of additional stress with minimal light. Cardinal tetras for instance come from very dimly-lit waters, and have what Baensch/Riehl term a light phobia; I know that in my 115g, the cardinals are always within the shade of plants except when they surface to feed, and I am certain that this is no mere whim.

I'd be happy to explain further if you have any questions on my aquaria; just ask.

Byron.


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## colinlp (Dec 26, 2009)

Thanks jjp and Byron



Byron said:


> I do weekly water changes of 50% and always have. Not sure I comprehend your issue on nitrates; in thickly planted tanks nitrates should always be low, many have zero, my nitrate is 5ppm consistently probably because I have a lot of fish. Plants prefer ammonium as their source of nitrogen, not nitrates, in case you were thinking that low nitrate levels would be detrimental for the plants.


Yes I was worried that low nitrates would be less than perfect but I understand now. So my 7hr trickle water changes should have little effect. I don't intend to plant quite as heavily as you, I'm planing on having 40 - 50% plant free to aid cleaning uneaten beefheart. I will be planting the rest quite heavily, will this be OK?
I read that you dose the water column a couple of times a week as well as root tabs, what are you using and why? (sorry!). 



Byron said:


> My view on light is that it should be the absolute minimum necessary to provide what your plants need and no more. This satisfies the needs of the fish, because most of the fish kept in planted tanks are forest fish that occur in waters that are not brightly lit and they will be more relaxed and free of additional stress with minimal light. Cardinal tetras for instance come from very dimly-lit waters, and have what Baensch/Riehl term a light phobia; I know that in my 115g, the cardinals are always within the shade of plants except when they surface to feed, and I am certain that this is no mere whim.


OK I'm going to stick with the lighting that I've ordered and see how it goes, if I need more then I'll squeeze them in somehow.



Byron said:


> I'd be happy to explain further if you have any questions on my aquaria; just ask.


 Watch this space


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## Byron (Aug 20, 2009)

> I read that you dose the water column a couple of times a week as well as root tabs, what are you using and why?


First, up until a year ago (last March exactly) I only used liquid fertilizer, for 15 years. I read so many authors saying substrate nutrients are so important for swords, and even though mine were growing fine in my view, I thought I'd try it. I got a package of Nutrafin's Plant-Gro sticks and stuck them next to the larger swords. In about 3 or 4 months I got my "fish room" ready and decided to move the tanks, so they were torn down completely and moved. I noticed that the swords with the sticks were definitely larger. I then added sticks for the rest of the large swords and experimented with reducing the liquid fert from twice to once a week (thinking the sticks might provide enough), but within a couple weeks the swords starting developing yellowish bits on some of the leaves, so I went back to twice weekly. About 4 months later, tried again, same results. This tells me that the plants obviously need the liquid fert twice a week, since nothing else had changed.

As for the liquid, I have been using Seachem's _Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium_. For about 1.5 years now. Previously i was using Kent Freshwater Plant [not the Plant-Pro line]. Both to my eyes work fine, good plant growth. I used the Kent once a week, and the Flourish as noted twice. I'm nearing the end of the Flourish (got a 2L jug, has lasted 15 months with twice weekly in three tanks, so good value for $50 CDN), and intend to try the Kent again. I bought the Flourish because they didn't have Kent. I think they are about the same in cost. Honestly can't remember the amount of Kent I used, I am dosing 1/2 tsp per 30 gallons with Flourish, which is not very much for the obvious benefit.

I also have floating plants and mosses which not being rooted in the substrate would obviously derive no benefit from substrate nutrients. The liquid did as I say benefit everything on its own. And I have very soft (zero hardness) water, with very little heavy metals according to the water board. Without the liquid fert, the trace elements would be missing.

Let me know if there is anything else you'd like more info on with my tanks. Always glad to offer suggestions that have helped me and may help others.

Byron.


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## colinlp (Dec 26, 2009)

That's awesome, thank you very much for your help. That all sounds very straight forward, I think I'm sold on this method now. It all sounds a lot less work than what I'm doing now, twice a week heavy hacking back of the plants and 2Kg of CO2 a month. Probably someone with more experience could slow that down a bit but it's working and I'm frightened of messing it all up.

Time to start thinking about an aquascape now, no doubt I'll be asking for help again there.

Laura, John, Byron thanks for your help here, you've really been a great help I was so confused you wouldn't believe I was getting a little stressed about it :icon_lol: 

Cheers guys, deep in your debt


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Bryon,
Are you using the entire flourish lineup, or just dosing flourish itself? (ie. NPK Seachem, or just Seachem Flourish).

Just curious!


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## Byron (Aug 20, 2009)

crossbow said:


> Bryon,
> Are you using the entire flourish lineup, or just dosing flourish itself? (ie. NPK Seachem, or just Seachem Flourish).
> 
> Just curious!


Just the Flourish Comprehensive.


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## topfrog007 (Dec 30, 2007)

Are you sure the T8's are going to provide enough light for anything to grow? Keep in mind your 160 is 30" which is pretty high when it comes to planted tanks.

Take a look at this graph here from Hoppy:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lighting/97622-par-data-selecting-t5ho-light.html Keep in mind that the data your looking at is for T5HO not T8's... 

I'm planning a 240G which is 31" high and I decided to go with a canopy which will raise my lights 9" off the top of the tank (For a more even distribution from top to substrate, and from front to back) the lights are 4X54W T5HO for a low light setup.


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## colinlp (Dec 26, 2009)

OK I've changed 2 of the units to 80W T5s, at least that way I can have a bit more flexibility with the lighting. That's a total of 1.84W/G if need be now I'm just hoping that's not too much.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

colinlp said:


> OK I've changed 2 of the units to 80W T5s, at least that way I can have a bit more flexibility with the lighting. That's a total of 1.84W/G if need be now I'm just hoping that's not too much.


Since 2 of those are T8s and you'll have several switches, I think it will work out well for your purposes. :smile:


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## colinlp (Dec 26, 2009)

I hope so, the trouble now is working out the best combination/timing, I guess I can always ask when the time comes if I need to.

Just out of curiosity what do you think would be the best substrate for this tank? I had planned on Carib Sea Eco Complete but would I be better of with something else, I've read that John Innes No3 is good for low tech tanks.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

colinlp said:


> I've read that John Innes No3 is good for low tech tanks.


I've never even heard of that substrate, perhaps it's one only available in the UK?

I personally like Flourite blacks and Mineralized Topsoil, that's what I have in most of my tanks.

Eco is supposed to be a good substrate as well, though.


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## colinlp (Dec 26, 2009)

It's a soil based compost apparently, I read about it here:
http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Walstad_method


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## Tylt33 (Feb 14, 2010)

colinlp said:


> Hi everybody!
> 
> I could do with some advice, the more I read the more confused I get and I seem to have gone 2 steps backwards rather than forwards. I will be getting a new tank in a few weeks, 68" x 30" x 24" lit with 4 x 58W T8s and a 48" x 18" x 18" sump. The main inhabitants will be discus along with some Tetras, Rams and a clean up crew. I would like to create a loose Amazonian biotope with Amazon swords E.Tenellus and some other similar plants, although I have no objection to adding Crypts etc if they are needed.
> 
> ...



I don't know if anyone has pointed this out, but based on your dimensions I believe you have a 210g, not a 160g... pretty big difference!


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## colinlp (Dec 26, 2009)

I'm in the UK, our gallons are bigger for some bizarre reason. I've chopped a few gallons out for substrate too. There's probably another 30 UK gallons in the sump as well


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