# Safe Phosphate level



## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

Hey guys, I have a phosphate and nitrate test kit. I think nitrate is useless because its an established tank?

I EI dose and Sunday is my water change day. My phosphate level is 5 ppm, so Im wondering if its safe? I think I read that 1 to 3 ppm is ideal. But since I EI dose, its suppose to be over. Im wondering if this is contribution to my bloom in diatoms and bga. I have press co2, soo water circulation, 8 hours lighting and 200+ watts of t5ho on my 45 gal.


EDIT: I cannot search as the function is broken for me.



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Ok so Sunday was big water change. Monday is macro day.

So Monday evening:

Nitrate - 0 to 5 ppm
Phosphate - 5 ppm

Tuesday evening:

Nitrate - 0 ppm
Phosphate - 10 ppm

Wednesday evening:

Nitrate - 0 to 5 ppm
Phosphate - 10 ppm

Thursday evening:

Nitrate - 10 - 20 ppm
Phosphate - 5 - 10 ppm


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

I would not say the nitrate test kit is useless; what are you nitrate levels at?

Algae can be caused by imbalances between phosphates and nitrates (i.e. 5 ppm phosphates, but 0 nitrates). You apparently have very high (perhaps too much) lighting over your aquarium, so it is not implausible that you have 0 nitrates, causing your algae.


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

hmm, Ill test nitrates too, hopefully before my weekly water change. Thanks for the reply.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

5ppm phos is safe

i used to regularly get around to 12-15 ppm


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> 5ppm phos is safe
> 
> i used to regularly get around to 12-15 ppm


Thanks.

My nitrates are around 10 ppm. Really hard to tell since colours of all levels are similar. 

This week I dosed at or a little below the normal EI dosing amount. I was dosing alot more than the amount before and even after 40% water changes, I think there was just too much nutrient in the water. Maybe that might have contributed to the bloom.


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## cah925 (May 18, 2007)

I try to keep a 10:1 nitrate to phosphate level in my tank. After my weekly WC, I bring the levels up to 20 ppm nitrate, 2 ppm phosphate. Later in the week, my nitrates are 0 and phosphates 1 ppm, so I dose enough KNO3 to get 10ppm and let that ride until the next water change. Algae is almost completely gone after about 3 weeks since I started doing this.


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

cah925 said:


> I try to keep a 10:1 nitrate to phosphate level in my tank. After my weekly WC, I bring the levels up to 20 ppm nitrate, 2 ppm phosphate. Later in the week, my nitrates are 0 and phosphates 1 ppm, so I dose enough KNO3 to get 10ppm and let that ride until the next water change. Algae is almost completely gone after about 3 weeks since I started doing this.



I guess I should test it through out this week so I can get a better idea. When you say you try to keep them 10:1, do you manually add pn and pp?


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## cah925 (May 18, 2007)

I dose dry ferts manually. I figured out how many grams to get 20ppm nitrate and 2ppm phosphate for my tank. If I only need 10ppm nitrate (to match the 1 ppm phosphate), I simply half the number of grams of KNO3. Some of my plants are nitrogen hogs, so that always seems to be my limiting factor.


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

cah925 said:


> I dose dry ferts manually. I figured out how many grams to get 20ppm nitrate and 2ppm phosphate for my tank. If I only need 10ppm nitrate (to match the 1 ppm phosphate), I simply half the number of grams of KNO3. Some of my plants are nitrogen hogs, so that always seems to be my limiting factor.


Just for the sake of curiosity, what plants seem to be nitrogen hogs?

Thank you,


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

micheljq said:


> Just for the sake of curiosity, what plants seem to be nitrogen hogs?
> 
> Thank you,


Many stem plants, M umbrosum, etc


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

cah925 said:


> I dose dry ferts manually. I figured out how many grams to get 20ppm nitrate and 2ppm phosphate for my tank. If I only need 10ppm nitrate (to match the 1 ppm phosphate), I simply half the number of grams of KNO3. Some of my plants are nitrogen hogs, so that always seems to be my limiting factor.



Ah, dang that requires time.

Ok so Sunday was big water change. Monday is macro day.

So Monday evening:

Nitrate - 0 to 5 ppm
Phosphate - 5 ppm

So I guess my plants devoured my phosphates. I only have the time to check levels during evenings. My lights turn off at 8 pm, I sample at 7 pm. I will do this for the whole week to give myself a better idea. Then, I might considering dosing or powder dosing the nutrients separately. I understand the demand will keep changing depending on the plant load.

Seriously though, my algae has receded (blue green and diatoms, they are still there and are a problem, but alot less than before). My plant load is alot more now so Im assuming thats why. The biggest problem next to my algae is getting the aromatica to show reds.


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## cah925 (May 18, 2007)

How are you dosing now? Liquid? Do you mix it yourself or is it Seachem brand or something similar? What kind of substrate are you using?


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

cah925 said:


> How are you dosing now? Liquid? Do you mix it yourself or is it Seachem brand or something similar? What kind of substrate are you using?



I bought dry mix and made my own solution. Can I actually sprinkle a little more potassium nitrate into my mix since my nitrates are low? MY substrate is normal flourite. 


Tuesday evening:

Nitrate - 0 ppm
Phosphate - 10 ppm


Thanks for sticking around and helping me out, I really need it.



EDIT: I just read this on aquascaping:

"Under high light, and nitrate limitation and excess phosphate, Limnophila aromatica will display purple/red/pink hues on its leaves. "

What the heck these are the exact same conditions Im seeing so far, minus the colour. And thats what Im trying to find out, whats wrong with my mix.


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> 5ppm phos is safe
> 
> i used to regularly get around to 12-15 ppm


12-15ppm of phosphates? You must mean nitrates no?

I try to keep my PO4 at 1ppm but it did go at 5ppm lately, I do not know why (it's the second time it occurs in 2 months). I am now reducing PO4 fert for a while. NO3 were at 5-10ppm lately.

Michel.


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## cah925 (May 18, 2007)

Are you using KNO3 for nitrates and KH2PO4 for phosphates?
How much of each are you putting in your solution and how much water are you adding?


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

cah925 said:


> Are you using KNO3 for nitrates and KH2PO4 for phosphates?
> How much of each are you putting in your solution and how much water are you adding?



Yes for the 1st question.

My recipe is:

In one liter of DI water

60 g KNO3
15 g KH2PO4
25 g K2SO4

I dose 13 to 15 ml Sun, Tue and Thurs.

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Wednesday evening:

Nitrate - 0 to 5 ppm
Phosphate - 10 ppm


Might I also add that the api test kit only goes up to 10 I think.


EDIT: hmmm, so my mixture is low on the nitrate side. Its since plants are not getting their nitrates, they are not taking in phosphates and other nutrients. Which is why I might be getting blue green and diatoms? Although these to kinds do not occur because of these conditions right? Tomorrow is trace and iron dosing but Friday Ill dose extra nitrate (in power form since my mixture was made a while ago).


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

blue green algae is normally present when there is not enough biological filtration in my experience.
having low oxygen content can contribute to this
low nitrates can exacerbate the issue but is not a direct cause


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## cah925 (May 18, 2007)

I checked 2 different fert calculators (just to be sure) and your stock solution is providing 3 ppm of Nitrate and 0.9 ppm phosphate when you dose 15ml. So I'm not entirely sure why phosphates in the tank are so high. Does your LFS do water tests? Maybe take a sample to verify your high readings on the phosphates.


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

cah925 said:


> I checked 2 different fert calculators (just to be sure) and your stock solution is providing 3 ppm of Nitrate and 0.9 ppm phosphate when you dose 15ml. So I'm not entirely sure why phosphates in the tank are so high. Does your LFS do water tests? Maybe take a sample to verify your high readings on the phosphates.



Thanks, Ill try to do that this weekend. Maybe while making the mixture I messed up. But for the time being, maybe dose a pinch of KNO3 (powder straight into the aquarium)? And also lowering my macro dosing.


HD Blazingwolf yes low o2 is a cause but Im not sure if thats the case. My co2 turns off an hour before the lights go off. From what Ive heard, co2 degasses really fast. So within 2 to 3 hours it should be down alot. I do have waves/ripples on the surface as well, not too strong and not too weak. There is good flow in the tank as well. My aromatica is growing, I seriously think, an half an inch a day. Its too frikkin quick. All my plants are growing crazy quick and lush.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

samee said:


> Thanks, Ill try to do that this weekend. Maybe while making the mixture I messed up. But for the time being, maybe dose a pinch of KNO3 (powder straight into the aquarium)? And also lowering my macro dosing.
> 
> 
> HD Blazingwolf yes low o2 is a cause but Im not sure if thats the case. My co2 turns off an hour before the lights go off. From what Ive heard, co2 degasses really fast. So within 2 to 3 hours it should be down alot. I do have waves/ripples on the surface as well, not too strong and not too weak. There is good flow in the tank as well. My aromatica is growing, I seriously think, an half an inch a day. Its too frikkin quick. All my plants are growing crazy quick and lush.


Then why worry about the N and P?

Unless you plan on calibrating the test kits(LFS's ain't going to do this step FYI), I would not bother testing at all for NO3 and PO4.
Cheap test kits can easily be way off and then folks go about making management decisions based on poor test methods and cheap test kits, not a good idea.

Plants are the real test.


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> Then why worry about the N and P?
> 
> Unless you plan on calibrating the test kits(LFS's ain't going to do this step FYI), I would not bother testing at all for NO3 and PO4.
> Cheap test kits can easily be way off and then folks go about making management decisions based on poor test methods and cheap test kits, not a good idea.
> ...



Well even though my plants are growing, Im not seeing the colour in the aromatica I want. I thought nutrients might be a limiting factor. Since Ive read what nutrients the aromatica likes. I had these test kits around so I thought to go ahead with it. 

So Im trying to figure out what Im missing. So I assume nutrients are not the problem here? Im trying to look at all the factors and trying to narrow it down one by one. You mentioned in another thread tank condition/healthiness plays one of the biggest roles. I always have lots of crud/mulm between my plant stems (hard to vacuum places). Whenever I prune and plant, stirring up the substrate, lots of crap flies off. These conditions have always been in my tank. Except months ago when I had 1 year old T8 light bulbs, my aromatica was slight yellowish and purple underside. Now, its just green (with T5HOs). Besides the light change, all other conditions are the same. I also had bga and diatom explosion recently, but they have receded alot by now. Im blaming it on the massive amount of plants I got rid off (like I mentioned earlier). Im just confused and dont know why Im not getting the colours.

The two biggest factors that I want to tackle next, changing my 4 month old T5HO light bulbs, they are odyssea and still trying to tackle co2. My plants perl like crazy everyday, but again, I dont know how much is in my tank. I heard if you EI dose, co2 test kits are useless/inaccurate..... Now before I run on and spend $$ on new bulbs, I want to clear these things out first.


Thanks Tom and thanks to cah925. Im just trying to improve myself.


I will stop this this eekend.

Thursday evening:

Nitrate - 10 - 20 ppm
Phosphate - 5 - 10 ppm

So today I shook the test bottles for extra long, waited longer after mixing and dosed macro in the morning. So could be any of those factors for the sudden change.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Focus on the plants, do not get lost fiddling around and wasting your time with test kits.

Once the tank is doing well, you have ruled out the basics like a limitation, decent lighting, good excellent stable CO2, current, filtration, etc.........then it might be wise to test and use that as a reference baseline with several planted tanks.

You can always simply do a large water change, and dose a known ppm back to the tank and KNOW you have at least that much.

Plants like large water changes, so do fish.
Simple enough.

I do not focus on coloration, I've fiddled with it about 15 years ago for about 2-4 years or so. But somehow my tanks are plenty colorful. Consistently.
I focus on plant growth and vitality, not much else.

95% of the issue are CO2 related for me if there's a problem.
I've had L aromatica and it colors up very nice and gets huge and weedy. Which is also why I rarely use it. Same with P stellata, A gracilius etc. Nice plants, but they get huge and grow fast and require a lot of whacking.

I've seen plenty of stressed plants of those species, they were a little redder, but the plants were only 1/4 the size, this was clearly a stressed plant, not vitality/vigor.

Now some are okay with that also, so you can limit say PO4 the easiest, N can be pretty dicy. A good sediment as a back up will help, particularly if it's older than 6-12 months(lacks N by this time).

Good fish loads also seem to help, plenty of algae eaters etc. All this stuff adds up holistically, micromanagement never really seems to help folks over the short or the long term IME. 

CO2 test kits are fine no matter what method you use to dose ferts EI, ADA, whatever, whoever said that is full of manure and beans
When in doubt, water changes, then check and adjust the CO2 and watch the plant's and the new growth. 

New tanks: I do water changes about 3x a week, 60-90%, once fish are in there, maybe 2-3 x a week 50-70%.

After everything is settled: once a week about 50-70%.
Any lull or issue: I do a water change and check the CO2.
I trim and keep the plant biomass somewhat constant. 
This also keeps the flow patterns constant.


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

Thank you Tom, its an honour to have you post  So would for H4N and Crazydaz.

Im still getting bga on my glass and diatoms.

I do 50% water changes every week. What I will do is invest in a co2 ph controller because my co2 keeps shifting. After that I want to tackle with the mulm/crap at the bottom. I clean up during every water change. I also only have two fishes, SAE and 1 atto. Several times, today being one, where my co2 levels were tooo high. My SAE was at the water surface while the atto just chills around.

I also have lots of snails that keep digging around. I see their trails when when bga takes over my glass.

I guess for the time being, I will look into controlling my co2. I will update when I do take the right measurements. 

Thanks for the help everyone.


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

Ok this is my plan:


I sold my crappy T5HO and have replaced it with my old T8s. They were doing the job just fine actually, Im surprised T5HO didnt bring much. I GREW A FOREST OF rotala macrandra even though I neglected them!!!!!!!! They were lush red too!!!!!

So, Im getting new T8 bulbs
Getting a pH co2 controller

See what happens. If my aromatica turns red or anything to show a change. If that fails then:

Redo my entire tank. Take out gravel and wash it, rescape, use manzanita wood, put osmo caps under gravel. Buy a new, proper T5HO. The most important thing is the reflectors. Also get proper new bulbs, Ill try the overpriced giesemann bulbs. But I still need suggestions on a proper fixture for my tank (please check my thread in the light board).

If all that fails, then all my effort and time go to waste and give up on planted tank....?..?..I understand in the end it comes up to the person. As in how clean you keep your tank and I guess how good your water is. Which I think is the hardest part.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

samee said:


> If all that fails, then all my effort and time go to waste and give up on planted tank....?..?..I understand in the end it comes up to the person. As in how clean you keep your tank and I guess how good your water is. Which I think is the hardest part.


 
The hardest part is figuring out what works for you!! i run a super duper pooper scooper hight light tank, and it challenges the heck out of me, but i enjoy it. algae is ever lurking for me to make a mistake, which i do, and then must correct.
i've learned its best to fiddle with the tnak less, and just let it do its thing. the problem is, I LIKE TO FIDDLE. so i cause my own problems 80% of the time

don't give up, learn from the mistakes. you may have to make the same one 10000 times to learn frm it. (its probably a co2 mistake) cause i beat myself in the head over it all the time


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> The hardest part is figuring out what works for you!! i run a super duper pooper scooper hight light tank, and it challenges the heck out of me, but i enjoy it. algae is ever lurking for me to make a mistake, which i do, and then must correct.
> i've learned its best to fiddle with the tnak less, and just let it do its thing. the problem is, I LIKE TO FIDDLE. so i cause my own problems 80% of the time
> 
> don't give up, learn from the mistakes. you may have to make the same one 10000 times to learn frm it. (its probably a co2 mistake) cause i beat myself in the head over it all the time



Thank you, Im just itching really bad for it. Im gettin it next week but Im headed of to Mexico this coming weekend, for a week. So after a good vacation Ill tackle it  Yes I will keep trying, been in high tech setups for about 5 years. Started with low light plants a year before that. So I have a long way to go.


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

Im bumping this topic because this week I dosed nitrates in powder form on top of my regular EI dosing. I think it made a difference. Theres lot less diatoms and bga. It usually takes over my glass in a week. So far, its there but a lot less than usual. Ill update in another week. 

I also have got a ph co2 controller. It had no effect on the algae issue. It did however make an effect on my plants. My diandra went from green to red. Its amazing. But my aromatica are still stubborn. So stable co2 is still not enough to get them red.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

micheljq said:


> 12-15ppm of phosphates? You must mean nitrates no?
> 
> I try to keep my PO4 at 1ppm but it did go at 5ppm lately, I do not know why (it's the second time it occurs in 2 months). I am now reducing PO4 fert for a while. NO3 were at 5-10ppm lately.
> 
> Michel.


no 12-15 po4...



samee said:


> Im bumping this topic because this week I dosed nitrates in powder form on top of my regular EI dosing. I think it made a difference. Theres lot less diatoms and bga. It usually takes over my glass in a week. So far, its there but a lot less than usual. Ill update in another week.
> 
> I also have got a ph co2 controller. It had no effect on the algae issue. It did however make an effect on my plants. My diandra went from green to red. Its amazing. But my aromatica are still stubborn. So stable co2 is still not enough to get them red.



aromatica from all accounts is fairly easy plant.. it may need more light
can u adjust the co2 up a bit more?? obviously u have noticed a positive result already


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## picturebigger (Apr 13, 2013)

good stuff here. sorry to wh0re the thread, but same subject.. so i don't have to panic? i was afraid i overdosed EI but it sounds more like i did, but i'm still safe? 

NO3 is 20-25, PO4 is at 2-3, dGH 5 and dKH 4, pH ~7.5-8. heavily planted, heavily lit. clearly my recipe is a bit strong since NO3 shot up from 5 to 25 and PO4 was at .25. in 2 days.

i'm at my weekly safe limit aren't i? should i stop dosing (the correct amount) until levels start dropping or saturday's 50% water change, whatever is first?


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

picturebigger said:


> good stuff here. sorry to wh0re the thread, but same subject.. so i don't have to panic? i was afraid i overdosed EI but it sounds more like i did, but i'm still safe?
> 
> NO3 is 20-25, PO4 is at 2-3, dGH 5 and dKH 4, pH ~7.5-8. heavily planted, heavily lit. clearly my recipe is a bit strong since NO3 shot up from 5 to 25 and PO4 was at .25. in 2 days.
> 
> i'm at my weekly safe limit aren't i? should i stop dosing (the correct amount) until levels start dropping or saturday's 50% water change, whatever is first?


ur not at unsafe levels.
EI doesn't raise levels that fast. check ur feeding habits in association with dosing. that would be my guess


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## picturebigger (Apr 13, 2013)

i just feed them 3 times a day like i do for myself. +brunch and a late afternoon snack. followed by a quick bite before bed. 

definitely no bad feeding habits. it would take dump trucks of food to spike phosphates like that. but thanks for confirming that normal EI dosing won't do that. i now actually think it was alcohol... oops. made me trigger happy. got my new ferts after a few beers... the rest is history.  i must have added CSM+B along with KH2PO4, maybe Mg too.

everything leveled off today. no more spikes (except in my punch bowl). good to go. 

thx


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

I EI dose alot. Usually more than required (in terms of EI!!!!). But levels never get that high. 1 thing can be that your mixture was not right. Maybe you put too much powder of one.

Fish food can contribute to it. But since you cleared it out, we know everything is fine


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> no 12-15 po4...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the help.

I brought it down to 6.0. For the last 3 days my SAE was not being active, it just sat in one spot. Today it couldnt take it and tried to jump out. It coudnt move much so it sank down into my grass. I turned off the ph controller. Now its swimming a little but still gasping/breathing quickly. Ive resetted my ph to 6.2, which was fine for the fish. 

So yea, co2 is not the factor thats making the aromatica boring green. I think its my gravel, it has lots of crud in it. Like few memberes on this forum mentioned, co2 and healthy tank are the biggest factors. MY tank healthyness is the only target thats left. It was the tuffest parameter/step to change. I think Ill need to take out all the plants, clean the crap out, rescape and replant. Thats a big step and I dont know how it will mess up the water chemistry. If my butterfly mini and rotala H ra can be red, then Im sure its not my T8s lacking power.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

samee said:


> Thanks for the help.
> 
> I brought it down to 6.0. For the last 3 days my SAE was not being active, it just sat in one spot. Today it couldnt take it and tried to jump out. It coudnt move much so it sank down into my grass. I turned off the ph controller. Now its swimming a little but still gasping/breathing quickly. Ive resetted my ph to 6.2, which was fine for the fish.
> 
> So yea, co2 is not the factor thats making the aromatica boring green. I think its my gravel, it has lots of crud in it. Like few memberes on this forum mentioned, co2 and healthy tank are the biggest factors. MY tank healthyness is the only target thats left. It was the tuffest parameter/step to change. I think Ill need to take out all the plants, clean the crap out, rescape and replant. Thats a big step and I dont know how it will mess up the water chemistry. If my butterfly mini and rotala H ra can be red, then Im sure its not my T8s lacking power.


clean out the crud, and increase flow. you'll be surprised at how much co2 fish can tolerate.. they cannot tolerate lower oxygen levels. 
Crud = depleting oxygen levels
if u can raise oxygen by just 1-2 ppm fish health and stamina will be greatly increased. this will also allow more room for co2 adjustments
HOWEVER i have found sae's to be not the most tolerant.

how much of a ph change are you going through at this point? if u turn ur co2 off. how high does ur ph go?


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> clean out the crud, and increase flow. you'll be surprised at how much co2 fish can tolerate.. they cannot tolerate lower oxygen levels.
> Crud = depleting oxygen levels
> if u can raise oxygen by just 1-2 ppm fish health and stamina will be greatly increased. this will also allow more room for co2 adjustments
> HOWEVER i have found sae's to be not the most tolerant.
> ...


Well I turn off the ph co2 controller an hour before lights. But I have turned it on once to see the ph and it goes up to 6.8 to 7. The crud is really hard to take out, I have to wave my hand around the exposed gravel (which is very hard to get to under stems and goreground plants) to get stuff flying.

Yes the SAE has been pretty good, my oto is a boss. Nothing phases him.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

a 1.0 ph drop is actually a small amount of co2.. close to around 10-20 ppm depening on how much co2 is present in the water colum from decaying matter..

swishing ur hands before a water change is a GREAT way to reduce debris, and over the course of multiple water changes will do a lot.
i fluff my plants righ before every water change... there is more junk than u think just stuck on them.

do a vacuum on the substrate u can reach.. run ur fingers through areas u cannot
then do the swish and drain + refill
over the next few weeks u'll notice fish are less bothered by the amount of co2 present. i drop my ph about 1.4-1.5 units which is roughly 39-50 ppm this is dependent on the water level in my sump. i try to keep it higher to stay closer to 1.5


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> a 1.0 ph drop is actually a small amount of co2.. close to around 10-20 ppm depening on how much co2 is present in the water colum from decaying matter..
> 
> swishing ur hands before a water change is a GREAT way to reduce debris, and over the course of multiple water changes will do a lot.
> i fluff my plants righ before every water change... there is more junk than u think just stuck on them.
> ...


Thanks, I did that to some extent, but starting this weekend, Ima start doing it properly. The more plant matter in your tank, the greater the crap there is.

I have another bucket load of plants that will most likely go in the garbage. Its just sad I cant ship to US.


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