# holes in red plants



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi giwan,

Welcome to TPT!

Looking over your pictures what I see in the first and fourth pictures beside the necrosis a 'hooking leaf tip downward' a definite sign of a calcium deficiency. The leaf margins also appear to be wavy ('scalloped').



> Typically occurs first on younger leaves
> 
> Necrosis occurs at tip and margin of leaves causing a definite hook at leaf tip.
> Calcium is essential for the growth of shoot and root tips (meristems). Growing point dies. Margins of young leaves are scalloped and abnormally green and, due to inhibition of cell wall formation, the leaf tips may be "gelatinous" and stuck together inhibiting leaf unfolding. Stem structure is weak and peduncle collapse or shoot topple may occur. Roots are stunted. Premature shedding of fruit and buds is common. Downward curl of leaf tips (hooking) occurs near terminal bud. ammonium or magnesium excess may induce a calcium deficiency in plants... *calcium deficiency*
> ...


You might think that with a dGH of 5.0 - 6.0 that you would have sufficient calcium but it may not be in a form that is easily utilized by your plants (btw, nice Hygrophila 'Rosanervig' (aka 'Sunset'). The necrosis between the veins could be caused by the calcium deficiency as well or if it is mostly occurring on your older leaves then a magnesium deficiency. If it were me I would add a GH Booster (I like Seachem Equilibrium here in the U.S.). Seachem Equilibrium contains calcium sulfate, magnesium sulfate, potassium sulfate, as well as iron and a couple micro-nutrients. Add sufficient to increase your dGH by 2.0 degrees and then watch your new growth (the old leaves will likely not change much). Watch your new growth for the next couple of weeks, if it looks better you know you are on the correct path. Don't forget to add GH Booster when doing water changes as well.

I had the opportunity to visit the Netherlands in 1983 with my Dad, we had a great time and met many friendly folks. Last year, our local aquarium club invited noted *Dutch Aquascaper Bart Laurens* from to speak, it was a great talk on the fundamentals of Dutch design.


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## giwan (Sep 11, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi giwan,
> 
> Welcome to TPT!
> 
> ...


thanks for the welcome, and the very in depth reply!
It is an Alternanthera Rosanervig (not hygrophila), would the hooking leaf tip downwards still point towards the same issue?
anyways I add calcium montmorillonite twice a week (mostly for the shrimp, but it also makes for clearer water). 
and once a week I do a 15% water change with remineralized RO water, I use saltyshrimp GH+ for the remineralization would this be appropriate too? 
Or do you suggest I at least combine it with Seachem Equilibrium? (I do really need a GH of 5 or 6 for the Crystal Red Shrimp that are in my tank).
What do you recommend my ration Ca:Mg to be? I read it is reccomended you keep this around 3:1. Also are there testkits for Ca and Mg, and if so, are these known to be reliable?

Haha, I wasn't even born yet in 1983 (I'm from 93), never heard of Bart Laurens either, but looked him up and he indeed has done some amazing work.
Man do I enjoy looking at those dutch scapes! I really should give it a go sometimes (kind of have too when you're dutch...), but I'll wait till I actually have some time to do so XD 
(and gained more knowledge in the upkeep of a planted aquarium)


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

giwan said:


> thanks for the welcome, and the very in depth reply!
> It is an Alternanthera Rosanervig (not hygrophila), would the hooking leaf tip downwards still point towards the same issue?
> anyways I add calcium montmorillonite twice a week (mostly for the shrimp, but it also makes for clearer water).
> and once a week I do a 15% water change with remineralized RO water, I use saltyshrimp GH+ for the remineralization would this be appropriate too?
> ...


Hi giwan,

The 'hooking downward of the leaf tips' is a classic symptom of a calcium deficiency, although all species may not exhibit the characteristic.

Calcium montmorillonite does not really provide much, if any, readily usable Ca or Mg for the plants because the *nutrients are locked up as oxides (CaO & MgO)*. If the PH of the water is acidic some Ca and Mg may eventually become available, if alkaline then likely not. Calcium sulfate and magnesium sulfate are much better sources of Ca and Mg for plants. Obviously the shrimp are the primary concern in your tank but if you want to improve the health of your plants you will need to increase the available Ca and likely Mg and K. If in doubt start slowly, add just enough Equilibrium to increase the dGH by 1 degree, if no adverse effects to the shrimp add more until you reach 2 degrees. I don't keep shrimp but I have read that excessive sulfates and chlorides may cause issues with the more sensitive species although I have not found documentation of that.


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## giwan (Sep 11, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi giwan,
> 
> The 'hooking downward of the leaf tips' is a classic symptom of a calcium deficiency, although all species may not exhibit the characteristic.
> 
> Calcium montmorillonite does not really provide much, if any, readily usable Ca or Mg for the plants because the *nutrients are locked up as oxides (CaO & MgO)*. If the PH of the water is acidic some Ca and Mg may eventually become available, if alkaline then likely not. Calcium sulfate and magnesium sulfate are much better sources of Ca and Mg for plants. Obviously the shrimp are the primary concern in your tank but if you want to improve the health of your plants you will need to increase the available Ca and likely Mg and K. If in doubt start slowly, add just enough Equilibrium to increase the dGH by 1 degree, if no adverse effects to the shrimp add more until you reach 2 degrees. I don't keep shrimp but I have read that excessive sulfates and chlorides may cause issues with the more sensitive species although I have not found documentation of that.


Hey thanks for yet another very informative reply.
I'm not too worried about too strong of an increase in sulfates, as I'll be introducing equilibrium at weekly 15% water changes.
I'll order the equilibrium tomorrow, so it'll arrive by monday or tuesday. Anyways as soon as I'll start dosing I'll cut of the damaged leaves. I will update you on the progress  might take a few weeks before i see improvement though


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi giwan,

Look forward to seeing how things progress.


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

> Calcium montmorillonite does not really provide much, if any, readily usable Ca or Mg for the plants because the nutrients are locked up as oxides (CaO & MgO). If the PH of the water is acidic some Ca and Mg may eventually become available, if alkaline then likely not. Calcium sulfate and magnesium sulfate are much better sources of Ca and Mg for plants. Obviously the shrimp are the primary concern in your tank but if you want to improve the health of your plants you will need to increase the available Ca and likely Mg and K. If in doubt start slowly,


I agree with this but I would also add that you should probably cut back on the salty shrimp as you increase Equilibrium. That way your GH would stay stable and your shrimp might not notice.In my opinion you could just discontinue the salty shrimp and go with Equilibrium. 

Equilibrium contains calcium and magnesium and sulfur. All of which are macro nutrients. I have not seen the ingredients of salty shrimp but my understanding is that it is mainly Calcium chloride and magnesium chloride. Chlorine is a micro nutrient for plants but it is only needed in very small quantities while sulfur is needed at much higher levels. So I would go with the one that provides the sulfur over the one that provides chlorine. I also have some concerns about high chloride levels in aquarium but i have no evidence to back that up. 

Does your salty shrimp GH booster list the ingredients? If so let me know. just curious.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

The damage is on new and old leaves, which usually means it isn't nutrient related. Furthermore the edges are sharp and jagged. Deficiencies don't cause holes like this. This is from mechanical damage from some critter in your tank.

Adding a bit of calcium won't hurt anything, but I do not think I'd call your plants calcium deficient, especially with a GH of 6. You can probably request a copy of the water report from your local municipality and have a look at it. You generally don't get deficiencies if there is some of each nutrient in the tank, so Ca deficiency isn't going to happen in a tank that has Ca.


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

If the holes are inconsistent showing up on the plant then it might be some type of damage from a fish like what Zapins is suggesting. I've got BN plecos in my 40B and I've seen them do damage to my healthy crypts leaves. They actually create smooth holes but you can see the damage on random leaves. They also did damage to some of the leaves to my AR since the leaves were basically sticking to the back side of the tank. The damage is only visible to the leaves close to that particular side of the tank. 

Some of the plants do appear to have pale leaves and it might be beneficial to dose Mg too. It might help give the leaves a more consistent reddish color.


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## aotf (Dec 19, 2016)

Do you have any scuds in the tank? A small number probably wouldn't cause anything like this but enough of them can cause some damage.

I actually also have holes in my red plants (AR and Ludwigia repens 'rubin') although I've been slacking on ferts and lighting in addition to having an uncontrollable scud explosion, so I really can't say with any certainty that they're to blame.
(I'm tearing the whole thing down in about a month, hence the slacking.)


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

Earlier I stated:



> I also have some concerns about high chloride levels in aquarium but i have no evidence to back that up.


I decide to look for something on the about chlorides. While I haven't found anything specifically about chlorides and aquatic plants i did find this article about road salt:
https://ag.umass.edu/landscape/fact-sheets/impact-of-salts-on-plants-how-to-reduce-plant-injury-from-winter-salt


The article does list a number of symptoms of road salt injury for land scaring plants near raids. One symptom caught my eye, "Nutrient Deficiency". it doesn't however list the type of nutrient deficiency observed. Since some tap water can have high chloride levels adding a Chloride GH booster to chloride heavy tap water might cause problems.


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## giwan (Sep 11, 2017)

Surf said:


> I agree with this but I would also add that you should probably cut back on the salty shrimp as you increase Equilibrium. That way your GH would stay stable and your shrimp might not notice.In my opinion you could just discontinue the salty shrimp and go with Equilibrium.
> 
> Equilibrium contains calcium and magnesium and sulfur. All of which are macro nutrients. I have not seen the ingredients of salty shrimp but my understanding is that it is mainly Calcium chloride and magnesium chloride. Chlorine is a micro nutrient for plants but it is only needed in very small quantities while sulfur is needed at much higher levels. So I would go with the one that provides the sulfur over the one that provides chlorine. I also have some concerns about high chloride levels in aquarium but i have no evidence to back that up.
> 
> Does your salty shrimp GH booster list the ingredients? If so let me know. just curious.


Hey thanks for the worries, I already thought of this. I use RO water, so I always remineralize to a GH of 6. From now on I will remineralize to a GH of 2 with equilibrium and then from 2 to 6 with salty shrimp ;D
Salty Shrimp doesn't list the ingredients But it could as Seatle_aquarist said indeed be in a form that isn't too readily available for the plants to use, I've searched the internet and found more people with roughly the same issue, so here's hoping equilibrium will resolve my problems...



Zapins said:


> The damage is on new and old leaves, which usually means it isn't nutrient related. Furthermore the edges are sharp and jagged. Deficiencies don't cause holes like this. This is from mechanical damage from some critter in your tank.
> 
> Adding a bit of calcium won't hurt anything, but I do not think I'd call your plants calcium deficient, especially with a GH of 6. You can probably request a copy of the water report from your local municipality and have a look at it. You generally don't get deficiencies if there is some of each nutrient in the tank, so Ca deficiency isn't going to happen in a tank that has Ca.


hey the scalloping and hooked leaf tips are visible on old and new growth, but especially the newer growth, Only the old growth has the holes in there though. so it my have been some necrotic tissue that has been eaten away by my shrimp. they would readily eat any decaying leaf that's available to them. 



PortalMasteryRy said:


> If the holes are inconsistent showing up on the plant then it might be some type of damage from a fish like what Zapins is suggesting. I've got BN plecos in my 40B and I've seen them do damage to my healthy crypts leaves. They actually create smooth holes but you can see the damage on random leaves. They also did damage to some of the leaves to my AR since the leaves were basically sticking to the back side of the tank. The damage is only visible to the leaves close to that particular side of the tank.
> 
> Some of the plants do appear to have pale leaves and it might be beneficial to dose Mg too. It might help give the leaves a more consistent reddish color.


I only have 26 Crystal Red Shrimp and 5 zebra nerite snails in my tank, I looked for any pests in my tank during day- and nighttime but couldn't find any (I even used a magnifying glass XD).



aotf said:


> Do you have any scuds in the tank? A small number probably wouldn't cause anything like this but enough of them can cause some damage.
> 
> I actually also have holes in my red plants (AR and Ludwigia repens 'rubin') although I've been slacking on ferts and lighting in addition to having an uncontrollable scud explosion, so I really can't say with any certainty that they're to blame.
> (I'm tearing the whole thing down in about a month, hence the slacking.)


Nope no scuds in my tank, not planning to tear down my tank any time soon, so hoping I can fix this issue.



Surf said:


> Earlier I stated:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmmm interesting, I don't think salty shrimp has that much chlorine in it though, as it's intended for shrimp and shrimp are especially sensitive to chlorine.
Let's just hope the equilibrium/salty shrimp mix will help ;P



I will keep you all updated 
thanks for all the replies/ all the help and thanks for thinking with me ;D


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi giwan,

Sometimes folks confuse chloride with chlorine, obviously not the same thing; chloride is actually a micro-nutrient that is used by plants, chlorine is added to water to kill bacteria, etc.


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