# A 75 Gallon Journey ->



## burr740

Here's a pic of the light that shows what kind of reflector it has. Would prefer it was polished, but it seems to be pretty efficient.











Fabbed up some adjustable brackets out of stainless steel so it would sit on the tank. The scratches arent so noticeable in person unless you look really close. I may polish or paint them at some point. Eh, probably not.











Tools! :bounce:


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## burr740

Here's the tank today, about a week after the pics in OP. Added some Corkscrew Val to the right corner last night.





















Mermaid Weed is starting to get some color, doesnt seem to be in a big hurry about it though. I may not have enough light to make them turn much. I believe that's a Crypt Willisi to the left? It's doing well, the little one at 4 o'clock is a baby I separated from it.


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## KatherineL

Looking good so far. That moss sure looks nice and fluffy 

Sent from my XT1049 using Tapatalk


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## burr740

KatherineL said:


> Looking good so far. That moss sure looks nice and fluffy


Hah, thanks. The java moss was one of the first things I bought when I decided to change the tank. Had less light at the time, and I wasnt sure exactly what direction everything was headed. Sorta wish now I'd went with a different kind, but the wooly look is starting to grow on me..so to speak :red_mouth


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## KatherineL

Hehehe punny. 

Sent from my XT1049 using Tapatalk


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## burr740

*5/1/14 Update*

Figured it was about time for a progress report. Plants are doing well. Ive been quite happy with the growth rate of everything. The aim is for steady and healthy, not necessarily fast. Still doing 8 hour photo-period and 25% weekly water change. Ive slowly increased Excel from a 60 gallon dose to 100.

*Recent developments:*

- Ditched the glass tops, they were a pita to keep clean due to very hard tap water. Im loving it being open.

- Removed the Firemouth because he wouldnt leave the Cories alone, constantly harassing them, so I found him a new home in a friends tank.

- Added more Crypts to the mid-foreground about 3 weeks ago. 

- Somehow managed to kill both lillies by aggressive pruning. They were getting so big and sending literally a new runner every day to the surface, which blocked a lot of light to other things. So I began cutting the runners off when they reached the top, and also the biggest lower leaves. After about a week of that, within just a couple of days, they both dropped all their leaves and died (or at least looked dead, so I took them out).

- Gave the java moss a good trim, what a nightmare! I used a Python to suck up the clippings as I went, but it still went everywhere.

*Onto the pics...* :bounce:


For reference, here's the first pic in OP from about 7 weeks ago 











Today - 5/1/2014


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## burr740

*Left Side:*

Added some moneywort (I think?) along the glass and a couple stems of L. repens x L. arcuata where the Lily was. Also added a small sword near the back corner, in front of the L repens (cant really see it now) I rescued it from PetCo, it was 80% dead and they gave to me free. Nursed it for a few weeks in another tank then planted it there. Im sure something will have to go in the near future because there wont be room, for now just gonna let it all grow and see what happens.











*Middle:*

Pruned the Mermaid Weed and replanted the tops. It had gotten about a foot tall. Moved the sword out some, and put 3 stems of L. glandosa behind it. I really like that plant, hope it does well I'll be spreading it around more places.











*Right Side:*

Swapped places of the Wisteria and Crokscrew Val. Then added some Ammania gracilis where the Lily was. The Val completely melted off it's existing leaves over the the first couple weeks, likely due to the Excel. Still it began growing immediately and sending out runners of new plants. Everything here is new growth.











Guess that's all for now. Thanks for taking a look! :red_mouth


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## Method

The colors look great! I also really like the moss cave. Keep up the good work!


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## tharsis

Looks great! And it will only get better as it fills in! You have some nice growth and some good plant additions.

I too am loving you moss cave, I am envious of the mossy goodness.


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## burr740

Thanks guys, that's very encouraging!

I actually made the cave with the Firemouth in mind, so he'd have a place to get into. Those are just common local rocks I found in a creek. Tied the moss on with cotton thread. It's well-attached now and most of the thread is gone.

The Firemouth used to hang out in the upper main part. It opens wide in the back and goes all the way through. The Cories all like to sleep in the two lower openings. They are almost closed in, except one has a small crack big enough for a fish their size to swim through. Now that the Firemouth is gone, other fish are constantly swimming through the main part. It's pretty cool to watch.


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## tharsis

A couple bolivian rams or german rams would absolutely love those caves.


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## burr740

Ive actually been thinking about some Rams. German blues would be a nice color variation to the current stock. Ive never had any Rams before, so idk much about them. I understand they are rather peaceful and shy. Would they be OK in there with eleven Tiger Barbs? The arent exactly aggressive but they do like to follow other fish and nip fins. And what would be a good number to have, like 2 or 3, or several?


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## tharsis

I think a couple of rams would be great in this tank. I have never had german rams, but I have had quite a few bolivian rams and they are very entertaining fish. I had a breeding pair in a 46 gallon tank with a bunch of tiger barbs and everyone got along great. The barbs pretty much stayed near the top of the tank and tormented each other while the rams had their space at the bottom. They are very relaxed but entertaining and I found that they breed very easily. 

The mound will end up being theirs though so no more cory sleep overs or tetra fly-bys.


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## burr740

That sounds acceptable, definitely putting them on the short list of possible new additions. Thanks for the info.


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## Crazy4discus

Looks good!


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## burr740

Crazy4discus said:


> Looks good!


Thanks!


Ran out of Excel a couple days ago, decided to go the industrial route. :bounce:











Other than that not much has changed since 10 days ago. Here's a quick FTS.


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## burr740

The new L. repens x L. arcuata here lost its red almost immediately  . 










Im thinking its a light thing, although the new leaves are a bit crinkled on the very tips, so I may have a deficiency of something. Nothing else is showing any glaring signs of one that I can tell though, so idk. Regardless Im currently researching how to do dry ferts, may begin a moderate EI routine or something.


Little Cory just chillin on the Wysteria like a boss











Still lovin this L. glandosa. It's grown about an inch with some nice color


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## burr740

In that last pic, you can see the tip of the driftwood where the moss is brown. That's from where I heavily spot treated with H2O2, right after the trim. A good portion turned downright yellow after 3 days in a row. It's rebounding now but some of it is still discolored. The moss seems to keep a good bit of bba (or something) in it. That's pretty much the only place I have any algae now. It's not terrible or anything, but it does annoy me :icon_mad:


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## HybridHerp

Get more candy cane tetras....I want to see someone with a nice big school of themmmmm.

Also, I like the tank, its looking nice man!


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## tharsis

burr740 said:


> In that last pic, you can see the tip of the driftwood where the moss is brown. That's from where I heavily spot treated with H2O2, right after the trim. A good portion turned downright yellow after 3 days in a row. It's rebounding now but some of it is still discolored. The moss seems to keep a good bit of bba (or something) in it. That's pretty much the only place I have any algae now. It's not terrible or anything, but it does annoy me :icon_mad:


Your plants are looking really nice, watching this fill in is going to be a treat


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## n5750547

I wouldn't stress too much about the algae. Focus on growing your plants as fast as possible and the algae will be taken care of (out competed).

Tapatalk Note 3


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## burr740

tharsis said:


> Your plants are looking really nice, watching this fill in is going to be a treat


Thanks, and ditto! :red_mouth



n5750547 said:


> I wouldn't stress too much about the algae. Focus on growing your plants as fast as possible and the algae will be taken care of (out competed).


I believe this is good advice. Hopefully I can get everything dialed in even more with a full range of ferts. Also have a couple things in mind for slight tweaks in lighting. Thanks for the input.



HybridHerp said:


> Get more candy cane tetras....I want to see someone with a nice big school of themmmmm.
> 
> Also, I like the tank, its looking nice man!


Thanks, and yeah that's a great fish. He's actually a holdover from some I had a couple years ago, the lone survivor. He literally thinks he's a Tiger barb now. Stays with them constantly and they dont seem to notice. I would gladly drop 6-8 more in here if I ever run upon some at a decent price. Only saw them one time recently at LFS @ $9.99 ea...yikes!

Here's a couple pics, little booger wont be still long enough to get a good one..


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## burr740

Made a slight change in the L repens today (left rear stems), which I think made a big difference in the overall look. A few had gotten so long they were laying across the surface reaching almost to the front of the tank, to the point they were blocking a lot of light from the left side.

So what I did was take the three longest ones and pull them underneath the driftwood, and out the front side of it. It really changed the whole visual dynamic.


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## Method

Good move. This is a great looking tank *now*, but when this matures it's gonna be a stunner!


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## burr740

Method said:


> Good move. This is a great looking tank *now*, but when this matures it's gonna be a stunner!


Thanks, that is very encouraging. Im anxious for it to fill in, especially in some areas, but also trying to be patient and just enjoy the ride. :red_mouth


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## burr740

Had a real holy crap moment earlier. Doing a routine 25% water change today, about to begin the refill process, I walk back into the room and notice from a distance a large dark mass floating on the left side. I was like wth, then as I got closer I realized it was the driftwood, which had came loose from it's slate anchor. :icon_eek:

I'd noticed it had felt loose lately, because I'd done a lot of grabbing and twisting it to get it positioned differently. Turns out the screw head had wallowed out the hole and it finally pulled through. The slate piece is like 5" x 11", so pretty big. It ran underneath a whole lotta plants on the left side. Welp, nothing to do but pull that sucker out and re-attach it, then re-bury the thing. So that's what I did (added a stainless steel fender washer to compensate for the bigger hole) 

In the process I completely uprooted several crypts, the freshly planted sword and several nearby stems. Anyway, got it all put back now, hopefully without shocking everything too much. Guess we'll see...


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## burr740

*Update - 6/7/2014*

Re-did the back left corner again. The L. Repens was getting out of control, growing literally an inch/day. At the same time, the new leaves didnt look so good. They were crinkly and undersized, with screwed up color. Certain other stems were showing the same signs, or just sitting there doing nothing at all. 

Up until now the only water column fert I used was Flourish Comp twice a week. I'd hoped to cover the rest with a heavy bio-load. So much for that. I began testing and noticed nitrates were barely above zero, ever. Phosphates were the same way. 

Im still figuring out dry ferts, trying to decide which route to go exactly. And it just so happened I had a $50 Amazon gift card. So for now I just grabbed Flourish liquids, 500ML bottles of nitrogen, phosphate, potassium, iron, and another comp. Hopefully by the time these are gone I'll have a better feel for what the tank needs, in what amounts, and be more prepared to go the dry route.

Five days and two doses of everything later, there's a noticeable difference in the look of things. Pics to follow...


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## tharsis

nice, looking forward to to the pics! Dry ferts are really easy and much cheaper too!

Was there any subsequent fallout from the driftwood coming up?


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## burr740

I took out a good portion of the L repens from the back left corner. Replaced it with more L glandosa, and L. repens x L. arcuata from another tank. I liked the glandosa where it was before but it wasnt getting enough light directly under the center brace.


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## tharsis

ah, there are the pics, looks great! Filling in nicely. I like the position of the glandulosa now. This is going to be a full jungle in no time, and I have a feeling you will be getting rid of the swords to make room for more stems...it gets addictive!

And again, the moss just looks so fluffy, love it!


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## burr740

Also took most of the Java moss off the driftwood. It had covered the thing entirely, and I do like the look of a bit of exposed wood. I then added 4 tiny java ferns to it. One at the very base, one in the upper V, and two along the backside, mid-ways up. You can barely see them now, interested to see how it looks when they come out some.











Crypts and swords continue to do well. Those Osmcote root tabs seem to be keeping them straight.











Right side -


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## burr740

tharsis said:


> nice, looking forward to to the pics! Dry ferts are really easy and much cheaper too!
> 
> Was there any subsequent fallout from the driftwood coming up?


Thanks. Yeah Ive been reading a lot about dry ferts, it definitely sounds like the way to go. 

As for the slate coming up, luckily it didnt seem to bother anything really. Just took a little time getting it all back in place, and re-burying ten thousand Osmocote balls :red_mouth



tharsis said:


> ah, there are the pics, looks great! Filling in nicely. I like the position of the glandulosa now. This is going to be a full jungle in no time, and I have a feeling you will be getting rid of the swords to make room for more stems...it gets addictive!


I think you are probably right. Ive always had this vision of big colorful stems sticking up behind big green swords. Not ready to abandon the idea yet but I can maybe see rows and rows of stems in the future.


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## burr740

Also added a school of eleven Pristella Tetras for a bit of color variation to the Barbs. 











Current stock list:
11 Tiger barbs
11 Pristella Tetras ( $1 to pseudomugil for proper ID 
6 Cherry barbs
5 ottos
3 Emerald Cories
1 Albino Cory (need to scoop up a few mates for him)
1 Chinese Algae Eater
1 Candycane Tetra


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## tharsis

the lemon tetras are a little barb-like so they fit in well. some serpae tetras would look good as well.

what is that plant in the last post? I think I may want to get some for my tank.


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## burr740

tharsis said:


> the lemon tetras are a little barb-like so they fit in well. some serpae tetras would look good as well.
> 
> what is that plant in the last post? I think I may want to get some for my tank.


Im pretty sure it's Ammania gracililis. I got it from Petco, unlabeled in their stem tank. Some members here helped me identify it. It was growing OK in height, but stayed rather spindly and pale. You can see the new growth looks more vibrant and full after just a few days of water column dosing. Love that plant. Ideally, I think it prefers water that is a tad softer than my liquid rock.


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## Roshan8768

I love the red plant. I wish I could have tiger barbs, but they would shred my goldfish!! This tank is coming along, nice job


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## Chrisinator

Love your moss structure!


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## burr740

Roshan8768 said:


> I love the red plant. I wish I could have tiger barbs, but they would shred my goldfish!! This tank is coming along, nice job


Thanks! Yeah they are notorious fin nippers, would have a feast on a nice goldfish.



Chrisinator said:


> Love your moss structure!


Thanks :red_mouth

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Welp, with all these delicious new ferts floating around, I just couldnt resist the urge to blow a bit of CO2 in here, just to see how things would react. :icon_twis

I made a build thread on the DIY board, just gonna copy those two posts here...


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## burr740

> Decided to hook up a bit of CO2 for my 75. :bounce:
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> Not sure if I actually want CO2 on this tank or not, but I have been thinking about it. So before investing in a pressurized system, I decided to hook up a bit of DIY to see if I can get a feel for how things will react.
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> Im aware of the challenges when it comes to DIY on larger tanks. Im just hoping to get a consistent 15 or so ppm - using minimal bottles. I believe that is possible with a leak free system and good diffusion.
> 
> Ive been experimenting for a few months on a 20 gallon using a single 2L bottle. I found that the following recipe will run 16-17 days, before starting to slowly taper off. After 3 weeks, it's still generating a lot, just not as much as originally, like 2 bubbles every 3 seconds instead of 1 per second.
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> So considering a duration period of ~2 1/2 weeks, before a slow decline, I decided to start out with three 2L bottles. The plan is to change out 1 bottle every week. Im willing to go to four and change two/week, perhaps using a bit more yeast, but Im hoping that wont be necessary.
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> *The Simple Recipe:*
> 2 cups sugar
> 1/2 TBS regular baking yeast
> 1 TBS baking soda
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> I activate the yeast first in a small bowl of luke warm water. Sprinkle in a tad of sugar and stir it gently with a fork. Then let it sit for about 15 minutes, stirring it again every 5 minutes or so. In the meantime I mix up the sugar/soda/water in the 2L bottle. I fill it about halfway with room temp water and shake it up well. Very well. Then fill it the rest of the way up (to just above the top of the label) and shake it again until everything is dissolved good. Then I pour the yeast mixture in. I dont shake it up any further.
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> *Now on to the build pics...*
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> Here is the finished gas separator, a 1.89L Juicy Juice bottle with a big wide cap. That was important because I wanted the lines going in separately, to be able to tell exactly what each bottle is doing.
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> 100% mechanical. No mess. No leaks.
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> *All hooked up:*


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## burr740

> Diffusion is kind of a two stage event. First there's a piece of regular cotton ball packed tightly into the CO2 line, which then runs into the intake of a small, upside down power head.
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> 
> It's been running now for two days. Already seeing a bit of pearling, mostly from the Lud. and Bacopa. Having only medium-ish light, Im not really expecting to see much. Everything seems to have really perked up though, that much is obvious. Tops of the Mermaid Weed turned a different color virtually over night.
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> I havent done a full Degas test with the same water yet, but PH seems to be down about .7 from what it normally is (taken in the middle of photo period) Correct me if Im wrong, but that's like low 20's ppm? If so that is fantastic. I'll know more in 24 hours.
> 
> Also ordered a glass ADA drop checker from Amazon, apparently gonna be 2-3 weeks before it arrives though :/


...


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## tharsis

Bummer about the drop checker, but it looks like you have your current set-up going nicely. Nice and clean DIY CO2 set-up I have to say, much better than the ones I have done in the past. I am guessing that you did all three bottles at the same time? That means that this is probably going to be the strongest output you will ever see, since you plan on staggering the bottles by a week. You may have to add a fourth bottle to stay at the levels you currently are at. 

Looks great, but my fearless prediction is that you will love the CO2 addition so much you will have a pressurized system within a couple months!


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## burr740

tharsis said:


> Bummer about the drop checker, but it looks like you have your current set-up going nicely. Nice and clean DIY CO2 set-up I have to say, much better than the ones I have done in the past. I am guessing that you did all three bottles at the same time? That means that this is probably going to be the strongest output you will ever see, since you plan on staggering the bottles by a week. You may have to add a fourth bottle to stay at the levels you currently are at.
> 
> Looks great, but my fearless prediction is that you will love the CO2 addition so much you will have a pressurized system within a couple months!


Thanks, and yes, that is actually the plan if I like it, to go pressurized here in a few months. :red_mouth

And you're absolutely right about having 3 new bottles now. Im expecting a slight drop off in a couple of weeks, hopefully very slight though. What I did was mix one up @ half the sugar, and about 2/3 yeast. My thinking is this one will generate less than the others, and start to expire faster. Counting bubbles supports the theory so far, it it just a tad behind the other two. So anyway Im going to replace that one first, after one week. Then just take ifrom there.


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## pseudomugil

Your tank is amazing!
your lemon tetras are actually pristella tetras also known as x-ray tetras.


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## burr740

pseudomugil said:


> Your tank is amazing!
> your lemon tetras are actually pristella tetras also known as x-ray tetras.


 A quick google tells me you are absolutely right! Pet depot had them as Lemons. I did look them up when I first got them, but obviously didnt look close enough, haha. Thanks for the info!


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## burr740

Did a major trim yesterday, which resulted in the virtual elimination of the moss cave structure. I got to messing with it, trying to reduce it's overall footprint. Idk if you can tell from the pics, but it took up almost the whole right side. There was only a small space behind and to the right for anything. Directly to the left was right under the center brace, so anything there always grew sideways reaching for the light.

Anyway, after taking it apart I could never get it back together right, so wound up with just two rocks and one little hole. Not sure how long I'll keep that honestly, Im loving the extra space. Just seems like that side needs something though, may scoop up another piece of wood or something.

Here's some pics - 


*Pre-trim*

Two days ago, six days after CO2 began, stems have exploded











*Post-trim*










I pruned nearly every stem and replanted the tops. Moved the L. glandosa out from the back wall and added some regular Baby Tears behind them. That puts them more underneath the light, and I think a green background will make a nice accent for them. They've really colored up since adding the CO2. The BT looks a little rough atm, I took it from another tank, and it sat curled up in a small bucket with no light for 2 days. Hopefully it recovers nicely.

Took out one of the swords and moved the biggest one to the middle. Also moved some Crypts around, and added some Compact Corymbosa to the front left.


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## burr740

*Left Side:*











Got some pearling action going on :bounce: All the Ludwigia are oozing bubbles from their underside. My photo skills stink, but here you can see the Baby Tears with a big bubble or two..if you look real close haha


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## burr740

*Middle:*











*Right:*

Wysteria is starting to blow up. Got a feeling it's about to command some major attention to be kept in check.


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## burr740

As always, thanks for having a look! Drop checker should be in in another week or so..


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## burr740

Drop checker in. Color is a rather dark green (though not quite as dark in person as in the pic). Between that, PH/KH chart, and degas test, Im fairly confident in a ppm between 15-20. That's really all Im shooting for atm with this DIY. Still running three bottles, changing out one per week.


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## burr740

Totally re-arranged things a few days ago. Moved the wood to the other side, took out a bunch of Ludwigia, added a melon Sword (thanks OVT for ID).

The right side is packed in tightly, left side needs to catch up some now. What do you think?


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## burr740

Turned the lights on in the middle of the night to takes pics, that's why the L Glandulosa leaves are turned up.


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## johnson18

Your tank looks good. Just read through the progression, seems like the ferts & DIY co2 have really helped. You've got some nice colors mixed in there. Ha the upturned leaves are definitely noticeable throughout the tank in the last few pics. I have a tendency to do the same things with my pictures! lol.


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## vanish

Great colors! One of the few tanks I have seen where the substrate contrast is spot on.


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## burr740

johnson18 said:


> Your tank looks good. Just read through the progression, seems like the ferts & DIY co2 have really helped. You've got some nice colors mixed in there. Ha the upturned leaves are definitely noticeable throughout the tank in the last few pics. I have a tendency to do the same things with my pictures! lol.


Thanks! Indeed, the ferts/co2 have made all the difference in the world. With everything Ive read about the uselessness of DIY on bigger tanks, Ive been pleasantly surprised to see such a dramatic response. 



vanish said:


> Great colors! One of the few tanks I have seen where the substrate contrast is spot on.


Thank you. Between the background and the substrate, sometimes I feel like there's too much black. Not sure how "natural" it looks, but the plants really stand out so Im cool with it for now.


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## burr740

OK those nighttime pics are getting on my nerves, lol. Here's a couple quick daytime shots with the leaves are more natural.


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## desertfish24

Great tank, Impressive to see how much its changed since your first post.


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## The Dude

Man I am loving the tank! There is so much contrast with the colors and variety of plants. You've done really well. It looks awesome


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## CluelessAquarist

burr740 said:


> *Left Side:*
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> Got some pearling action going on :bounce: All the Ludwigia are oozing bubbles from their underside. My photo skills stink, but here you can see the Baby Tears with a big bubble or two..if you look real close haha



What is that big sexy red plant right there?


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## burr740

desertfish24 said:


> Great tank, Impressive to see how much its changed since your first post.





The Dude said:


> Man I am loving the tank! There is so much contrast with the colors and variety of plants. You've done really well. It looks awesome


Thanks a lot guys. 



CluelessAquarist said:


> What is that big sexy red plant right there?


Ludwigia glandulosa. It's on the right side now, you can see in those last pics. I prune it back to about half the tank's height about every two weeks now (cut off the bottom and re-plant the tops). It'll hit the surface again in about 10 days. Here it is a few months ago, before ferts/co2. It was a cool specimen even then I think.


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## usgetata

Impressive planted tank man!


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## philipraposo1982

Hi there,

You seem to have dialed in the DIY co2 on your tank, I keep reading how on a 75g and larger tanks that DIY co2 is more trouble than its worth.

How do you do it? Do you have any algae in the tank? from the looks of it everything is doing great. 

If you up for sharing some secrets I would be interested in knowing your setup as I might want to try this in my 75. I would only aim for low co2 levels as my lighting is nothing super duty but I feel it would help with my growth and overall plant health.

You should do a DIY co2 rightup for the larger tank  

Any specific info would be awesome, I never tried co2 and I know very little of it. But i can't use excel / glut cuz my vals will melt. and wouldn't want to spend crazy money on a pressurized co2 system without trying diy first.

thanks in advanced. pm if you want


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## burr740

usgetata said:


> Impressive planted tank man!


Thanks a lot. 



philipraposo1982 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> *(1)* You seem to have dialed in the DIY co2 on your tank, I keep reading how on a 75g and larger tanks that DIY co2 is more trouble than its worth.
> 
> *(2)* How do you do it? Do you have any algae in the tank? from the looks of it everything is doing great.
> 
> *(3)* If you up for sharing some secrets I would be interested in knowing your setup as I might want to try this in my 75. I would only aim for low co2 levels as my lighting is nothing super duty but I feel it would help with my growth and overall plant health.
> 
> *(4)* You should do a DIY co2 rightup for the larger tank
> 
> *(5)* Any specific info would be awesome, I never tried co2 and I know very little of it. But i can't use excel / glut cuz my vals will melt. and wouldn't want to spend crazy money on a pressurized co2 system without trying diy first.
> 
> thanks in advanced. pm if you want


Hi phili, thanks for the interest.

1. All Ive ever read said the same thing, that it's not worth it on big tanks. The list of people who've tried 5-6 bottles and still had nightmares is a long one. I've been pleasantly surprised with the results so far with only 3 bottles. 

2. A leak-free system, good diffusion, and consistent amounts are the main thing. Need to have multiple bottles with staggered start times, so there is never a big fluctuation. I experimented on a 20 gallon for a while, and found a simple recipe that lasts 16-17 days before beginning a slight decline in production. That is how I arrived at 3 bottles, replacing one per week. (see #4) 

I have no algae to speak of, other than just some routine dusting on the glass that gets wiped off once a week or so. Ive actually upped my photo period to 10-11 hours. 

3. See #4, and feel free to ask about anything or send me a PM. 

4. Here's a build thread with lots of details. Most everything is included here too though, a page or two back.

5. I also wanted to try a bit first before investing in a pressurized system. I will probably go pressurized eventually, but what Im doing now is fairly easy and seems to be working fine. I just change one bottle/week on the same day as water change. Takes about 10 extra minutes.


----------



## philipraposo1982

Thanks for the info, after reading more and more about co2 I have decided not to mess with a good thing. If my tank gets to a point where things are going bad and need to try something then co2 would be one of my options. But for noweverything is almost perfect and don't want to ruin that.

I like your new rescape too, its a lot more natural looking. Keep up the good work!


----------



## desertfish24

Any new pics?

also, Hows the osmocote working for you? any issues thus far?

And any advice on the dry ferts?

Thanks, keep it up


----------



## burr740

Hi desertfish, the last month has been pretty crazy. About the time I began the EI routine, went through sort of a rough patch for a couple of weeks where some of the stems didnt do so well. Starting to get everything dialed back in now hopefully. Tank is doing well overall. 

Re Osmocote, Im a big big fan. Had great results in several tanks. I think Ive over done it some in this one though. Nothing major, just that I have SO much in there it's affecting how much trace I need from dry ferts. I suspect a good bit is leeching into the water column - or, it could be that my penchant to uproot half the tank and re-plant everything causes big spikes from disturbing the substrate so much. Without a way to test for certain things, Ive just been having to tweak amounts and watch how the plants respond. It's actually been an interesting learning experience.

I'll make a proper update with new pics here pretty soon. Thanks for inquiring! :red_mouth


----------



## burr740

Lots of changes since my last post. Time for a long overdue update. :bounce:

*First the boring stuff:*

- After much trial and error, turns out I had way too much osmocote+ in the substrate. It was leeching into the water, causing an overdose of micros when combined with dry ferts, specifically Fe. I literally destroyed several species before narrowing down the problem. Ironically, it was mostly the red plants. Luckily I had more of the same plants in a 20 gal grow out tank to replace them with, and continue trying to fix things.

To make a long story short, I went 7 weeks dosing only macros, no micros at all. Never saw a deficiency. Finally started back with a 20 gal dose of csm-b twice a week. Plants seemed to perk up, so that told me the issue was resolving. Did that for a couple weeks, then bumped it to a 40 gal dose. That's where Im at now, three times a week.


*Updated equipment:*

- Ditched the HOBs for a SunSun 304B canister filter, really like it so far. I have the spray bar at one end of the tank. It's enough to make the plants on the other end gently sway. Still have the powerhead blowing across the foreground.

- Along with the canister, also got a Sera Flore CO2 reactor , to use instead of the powerhead. I was going to build a griggs style, but for 40 bucks I decide to just save the trouble. The reviews were all good, plus a couple users here recommended them. So far it's living up to my expectations. 100% dissolution, and it's relatively quiet. No more sprite water!


*Changes to DIY CO2:*

Went from three 2L bottles to four 3L, changing out two per week. Collectively, the bubble count stays between 39 and 43 bubbles every 10 seconds, or right around 4 bps. That's as consistent as Ive been able to get it so far, pretty good for DIY iyam.

Here's a pic. All this is sitting behind the tank. My current stand doesnt have a cabinet underneath to put stuff in. 











Keep in mind those are 3 liter bottles. That's how big the SunSun is. :icon_eek:












Im going pressurized in another month or so. Already kopped a 10lb tank, just gotta decide which route to go as far as the reg...



*New Light:* 

Upgraded to a quad T5HO hydroponic fixture. It was just over $100, with a choice of bulbs included. I got two 6500K and two 3000K "red." Currently running one 6500K, one 3000K, a TruLumen Flora, and a ZooMed Ultra Sun (6700K). 












Bulbs are not in this same order, I have the two red ones in the middle. 











I was really nervous about increasing the light so much. Currently have it 6" off the surface, ~24" from substrate. Started out with a 6 hour photo period for a couple weeks. Then went to 7, then 8, which is what Im doing now. So far no algae and the plants are obviously loving it.

One thing that surprised me is what little algae I had before has actually gone away now. I never had much with the old light, but there was always a bit scattered about on some of the older growth. I guess the new light is helping the plants out compete it even more now. Knock on wood, everything seems pretty well balanced atm.



*Here's the tank* in its final, previous state, probably mid Oct, and still with the old light.











I decided the swords and crypts had to go. They were getting huge. It had gotten to the point they were shading almost the entire footprint, esp the two swords. It's hard to see in the pic, but I'd probably trimmed off 2/3 of each ones leaves right there. It was time for a change.


Cue major re-scape. I added some S repens, dhg and some other grass to the foreground, and changed pretty much everything else in the process.

Here we are a few days later. This is what happens when you overturn the entire substrate all at once. The dreaded Green Water. :confused1:











It was at this point I bit the bullet on the SunSun w/UV sterilizer. It cleared it up in just a few days. Couple weeks later...












I have no plan or goal in mind for the scape. It is sorta just evolving into whatever lol. Here's the latest pics. Did a major trim and eliminated a couple species. It's back to grow out mode once again.











Between the L glandulosa in the far right, and the couple stems of Moneywort near the center (which will probably remove soon), there is wide open space. Not sure what I want to do right there. I'd like for the java ferns to continue to stand out, so it needs to be a stark contrast to those. Thinking about letting all that become one big sea of red glandulosa. That stuff grows pretty fast, it wouldnt take long to fill the area up with cuttings.




















Had to get rid of the Tiger barbs. It was crazy. Never had a problem with them eating plants. Then all of a sudden they decided they liked the taste of bacopa, and proceeded to strip every stem bare over the course of 2-3 days. I wound up trading them in for 20 Neons.

Current stock list:

20 neons
11 pristella
6 candy cane
4 cherry barb
7 ottos
3 flying foxes






























The little Crypt in the center (left side of pic) is going through a melt. I guess from being moved. Strange because Ive move them around dozens of times before in this tank and never had any to melt. It's starting to come back though so hopefully it's all good. It's the only Crypt in the tank now.











As always, thanks for having a look.


----------



## burr740

Time for a trim...










L aromatica has sorta lost it's color, not sure why. Also added some A reineckii just in front of those. It's still pretty small.

Having a real dilemma what to do with the foreground. I planted those three varieties sort of as an experiment, just to see how each one did and looked. Now they all are blowing up, Im not sure what direction to take it. Any feedback is appreciated.

As always, thanks for having a look.


----------



## mattjm20

Just read this entire thread. Really nice tank.


----------



## korbinavery

Found this through this (http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?p=7150042#post7150042) thread. Really happy to see your tank going so well. Recently upgraded my 75 gallon planted, substrate from sand to eco-complete, upgraded my lighting from 4 - t8's to a finnex 48" planted plus, started dosing dry ferts and micros and now adding the diy co2 using your method. I got the plant fever after years of breeding different cichlids. Your tank and thread have been an inspiration, thank you.


----------



## tomz

Wow talk about an ever evolving tank.. Amazing job. How do you get your plants to stay in the sand? I always hear such mixed reactions about using sand and plants.


----------



## burr740

Thanks for the kind words guys.  

@tomz, Ive never had a problem with plants staying put. Substrate is about 3" deep most places, some areas closer to 2." I usually just push everything down, almost to the bottom, using tweezers for the stems.
______________________


Finally got my pressurized system hooked up, going on a couple weeks now. Man it's so nice to be able to turn it up and down. I started out around 5 bps, slowly increased it to pretty much a steady stream now. So far the fish have shown no signs of distress. Plants pearling like crazy. It looks like an upside down rainstorm in there. I'll probably continue to raise it over the next few weeks, hit the limit then back it off some.

Bought a new aluminum 10lb tank from a local home brew store. It was $115, filled. Thought that was a pretty good deal, at least based on what I'd seen them go for online.











Decided to go with an Aquatech Premium regulator. For now I just wanted a turn key system that didnt cost an arm and a leg. Replaced the plastic bubble counter that came on it with a brass one. It's working well so far.


----------



## burr740

Tank hasnt changed very much. I have some ideas where I want to go scape-wise. For the time being Im just getting everything dialed in, and growing some things out. 











Thinking about making another carpet of S repens on the right side, tapering both sides down as they meet more or less in front of the open area under the wood. And maybe reducing the footprint of the current carpet, front to back wise. I would do it now but I recently got a couple new crypts and I want to give them a chance to grow and adapt some. Plus I wanna see what they are gonna look like for a better idea where to place them.





















Maybe somebody can tell me exactly what kind they are. LFS had them as simply crypt. red, or something like that. Old leaves are the green ones, new leaves are reddish orange.





















As always, thanks for having a look!


----------



## HybridHerp

crypt looks like wendtii to me


----------



## EndlerGame

Yeah, it's probably C. wendtii "red". Give that a few months and you'll have a pretty dense little bunch of plants there. I haven't kept the red variety but my C. wendtii "green" grows like gangbusters with or without CO2.

This is a really nice tank...I recently set up a 75 gallon tank, my largest tank so far and first with pressurized CO2, so I like to see others working on the same setup...the "75 gallon club" is way better than those "Fluval Spec" Clubs, etc. 


Once you have the aquascape arranged the way you have got planned for it, I think you should get a larger fish for this nice size show tank!... 

I really like Pearl Gouramis, they're one of my favorite fish. Their patterning is spectacular, and the slow, graceful movements really compliment a planted tank and are very pleasing to watch. A group of 6 (2M/4F) would have plenty of room in there and wouldn't go anywhere near to stretching the limits of your tank capacity. With plants growing up to the surface, they may build bubble nests and breed for you!

Anywho, great looking tank. That S. repens carpet is impressive, as well as your java fern growth. I've never had as much luck getting that plant to fill in well, but its expensive to buy much of it around me...keep it up!


----------



## knm<><

That's looking pretty sweet. I love the carpet.


----------



## burr740

HybridHerp said:


> crypt looks like wendtii to me


Thanks. I just checked out your 75, wow 



EndlerGame said:


> Yeah, it's probably C. wendtii "red". Give that a few months and you'll have a pretty dense little bunch of plants there. I haven't kept the red variety but my C. wendtii "green" grows like gangbusters with or without CO2.
> 
> This is a really nice tank...I recently set up a 75 gallon tank, my largest tank so far and first with pressurized CO2, so I like to see others working on the same setup...the "75 gallon club" is way better than those "Fluval Spec" Clubs, etc.
> 
> 
> Once you have the aquascape arranged the way you have got planned for it, I think you should get a larger fish for this nice size show tank!...
> 
> I really like Pearl Gouramis, they're one of my favorite fish. Their patterning is spectacular, and the slow, graceful movements really compliment a planted tank and are very pleasing to watch. A group of 6 (2M/4F) would have plenty of room in there and wouldn't go anywhere near to stretching the limits of your tank capacity. With plants growing up to the surface, they may build bubble nests and breed for you!
> 
> Anywho, great looking tank. That S. repens carpet is impressive, as well as your java fern growth. I've never had as much luck getting that plant to fill in well, but its expensive to buy much of it around me...keep it up!


Thanks a lot. Im definitely on board with the Gourami suggestion. Having schools of small fish is nice, but they dont really stand out in this tank unless you're right up close. Ive been wanting to replace them with some kind of a larger, showcase type fish. Something slow and peaceful.

As for the Java fern, yeah their growth has been crazy. They may not _need_ high light and CO2, but no doubt they love it. When I added them back in July, they were just tiny little plantlets.











Good luck with your new 75. Hope to see pics or a journal for it someday. 



knm<>< said:


> That's looking pretty sweet. I love the carpet.


Thank you. Trimmed it for the first time about six weeks ago. It was about 3 inches tall and I basically just hacked it down to about an inch. This being my first experience with S repens, I was more than a little nervous about it. :icon_eek: But it has responded very well so far. New growth is coming quick.


----------



## All4Fish

Wow, nice tank. I envy the neatness and design. I will have to look at mine again for a redo. I have an 80gallon with 2 german blue rams with rummynose and rainbows, cory. So far so good - the rams have a ton of personality and are always begging for food, not at all shy.They do like their little hiding spots, but always come out when they see me. I think I have a male and female but not sure.


----------



## burr740

All4Fish said:


> Wow, nice tank. I envy the neatness and design. I will have to look at mine again for a redo. I have an 80gallon with 2 german blue rams with rummynose and rainbows, cory. So far so good - the rams have a ton of personality and are always begging for food, not at all shy.They do like their little hiding spots, but always come out when they see me. I think I have a male and female but not sure.


Thanks for the kind words. 

I thought about getting some rams a while back, but it's not really set up for them to have much hiding spaces now. I'd love to have a tank centered around a few though.

**********

Re-installed the night lights. Two 17" Marineland Hidden LEDs. Amazon.com : Marineland Hidden LED Strip Light, White and Blue, 17-Inch : Hidden And Accent Led : Pet Supplies

Had them installed to the back of my old light, never got around to posting pics. I dont like them inside the tank. There's always a glare when viewed at eye level. Fortunately they suction cup right onto the back of the new light fixture. So they're also 6" above the surface, pointing straight down. I use them for non-photo period viewing. You can run just the blues but it's too dark to really get a pic.


----------



## burr740

Sent my fish gasping to the surface earlier today. Im starting to see the knock on Aquatek regs. Man that needle valve is finicky. Bump it up slightly one day and it increases just a little bit. Move it the same amount tomorrow and it's liable to go through the roof! Since the bubble rate is more or less a steady stream, it's hard to tell by just looking. Probably gonna replace that stock valve with a better one pretty soon.

Here's a pic, pardon all the bubbles. That's from an airline I ran into the powerhead to help with O2 and off gassing. Shut the co2 off and changed 10 gallons of water. Couple hours later everyone seemed fine again.










Top center^ if you look close you can see the Flying Foxes are actually laying on the plants while sucking for air. Probably didnt have the energy to hover on their own. :icon_eek: Most all of the Pristellas and Candy Canes went to the bottom under dark cover.


In other news: The other day I added a rock with some Willow moss at the base of the dw, and started a little glosso. 










Not sure Im feelin the rock. Gonna give the Willow a chance to fill out and see what it looks like. It was in pretty rough shape when I got it so it's a little brown atm. That's a tuft of Java moss on the wood right above it. It's coming back out in a couple spots where I _thought_ I'd scraped it all off a few months ago. It's beginning to sorta hang out and over right there. Thinking maybe they'll merge for a nice effect...... or not. 

Also beginning to phase out some of the S.repens. I dont think I did it right for one thing, started it out planted too close......or something. It's so extremely thick and dense now. I put the gravel vac on it during WC and suck tons and tons of gunk out of it every week. So there's a whole lot of organic waste right there all the time, which cant be good for the system. 

I could just keep it mowed down better, but probably just going to start over with it - as soon as I figure out exactly what kind of shape I want the patch to be. It's going to be a much smaller footprint than it is now, that's for sure.

I'll get some new pics up pretty soon. The tank is basically a farm right now. Just growing some things out and playing with different arrangements. 

As always, thanks for having a look!


----------



## Hyzer

burr740 said:


> Sent my fish gasping to the surface earlier today. Im starting to see the knock on Aquatek regs. Man that needle valve is finicky. Bump it up slightly one day and it increases a little bit. Move it the same amount tomorrow and it's liable to go through the roof! Since the bubble rate is more or less a steady stream, it's hard to tell by just looking. Probably gonna replace that stock valve with a better one pretty soon.


I feel your pain. This can happens even if you have been using a pressurized setup for a few years with an excellent valve. On Saturday evening I found all my corycats seemingly lifeless and belly up. The gasping tetras had lost all their color and were just barely hanging in there. All because I forgot I had switched off a powerhead and the surface skimmer the night before. Just a lack of surface agitation did it for me. I felt bad for putting the fish through that and was lucky to bring them all back with an airstone. Glad you were able to do the same.

It's awesome that you grew such a great looking tank with DIY CO2. I bet you don't miss changing all those bottles though. Keep up the good work!


----------



## burr740

Thanks Hyzer. I definitely do not miss the weekly bottle washing! The biggest difference to me though is the ability to adjust it up and down. With DIY the best you can ever hope for is an adequate level of CO2 that runs consistently. I didnt fully realize what a luxury being able to increase or decrease it with just a turn of a nob would be.


----------



## burr740

Redid the foreground. Ripped up all the Staurogyne and just started over. I figured out where I went wrong before. I gave it a halfway down trim instead of all the way. New growth looked great, old growth quickly turned ratty and started collecting algae.

Saw Tom explain in one of his old journals. Here's the quote, some great info in that thread btw, more than you could learn from any book.



plantbrain said:


> Starougyne repens is an interesting species, it'll allocate resources only to the new growth.
> 
> So no sense in trying to save the old ratty bottoms, the stem will sprout a new tip and that new growth will be nice. The old leaf is nothing but a nutrient source for the new growth and the plant does not even try to defend it, many species of aquatic plants follow this pattern.
> 
> Why bother?
> 
> Easier to grow a new shoot.
> 
> Same with Starougyne and most foreground cover.
> 
> So mow it......., Crypts also do this via "Crypt melt", I hardly EVER hear of this mystery "disease" as it was once called back 20-30 years ago..........folks have come along way growing plants.
> 
> No sense in trying to save a covered mangled leaf or one buried under 4-5 other leaves and is not adding anything to the plant overall.



First re-planting











Started with this 












Glosso coming in well. Big difference in now and that first pic from a week ago. Ditched the rock. That was never going to work lol. This little center crypt grows but it's looking rattier and rattier. Soon I'll either mow it down and see how it comes back, or just remove it entirely. Thinking this may be a good spot for the A reineckii. I dont want to move that plant just yet. Read that it doesnt like being moved, and it seems to be taking it's own sweet time adjusting period. 











Im this close to yanking the Java fern, maybe the whole piece of wood, cant decide. Gonna at least wait til it warms up some so it will be safer to ship if I decide to sell it. It's four really nice main plants on there. I keep them trimmed back mercilessly. The rhizomes are huge, could probably separate into a couple dozen.

Everything just got a big trim, that's why the Aromatica is kinda pale. Background plants are sorta haphazardly placed atm. Just growing some things out, getting a feel for what grows how, what I like and dont like, and practice trimming methods. I do have somewhat of a plan in mind for the near future though.











With so much plant mass gone all of a sudden, I wanted to decrease the PAR a little bit. In stead of raising the fixture I replaced the rear 6500K with an actinic I had laying around. it has about 9 months of use on it and only 28 watts to begin with. It really made a big difference in the color rendition, I like it very much. If plants grow well probably keep it in there. Also been wanting to try a purple plus so that is another possibility.

Currently bulbs are, back to front -

Blue actinic
Trulemen Flora
ZooMed Aqua Sun
ZooMed Flora Sun

Surface pic











Flying Foxes pause from grazing on wood to check out the camera....











Added a few snails. Hopefully I wont regret it, I like snails as long as they dont get outta control. Have about 10 in there now....pond snails I think?


----------



## burr740

New Scape!!











Just kiddding...


Doing a water change earlier, I decided to pull the left biggest Java fern off and see how it looked. I really liked the additional depth it created. So then I pulled another one...and another...before I knew it I had them all off. :icon_eek: :icon_eek: 

Ripping up half the tank wasnt exactly in the plans for this morning, but now I had to figure out what to do with the wood.

In the pic, I'd just turned it upside down and sorta hung it on the side get it out of the way for a minute. Then I was like Wow that's pretty cool, gonna have to remember that. It was surprisingly stable just sitting there. A dab or two of silicone would easily fasten it. The screw is kinda loose so the log can swivel back and forth in different positions.... 











....but I digress. 

So anyway, I messed around with it for a while and finally came up with a placement I think will do well going forward.

These pics are all crap. Only the actinic and one red bulb on in most of them, plus the tank looks like a dust storm hit it. But here's a couple quick shots of what I wound up with.





















Of course the plants are going to be totally redone. Everything is just stuck somewhere for the time being. Gonna mull it over for a few days and figure out what I want to do with everything. Im thinking Dutch-ish streets of contrasting colors and a bright green carpet or two.

Im already loving the extra depth, it's like a whole different tank now. The ferns had it basically cut in half on that side, front to back wise. This opened up a virtual toy chest of new possibilities.....


As always thanks for having a look.


----------



## Saxtonhill

Thoroughly enjoyed reading the entire thread.  Looking forward to further updates


----------



## burr740

Thanks Saxton 



Still working out the wood placement. Here it stands as of this morning. (plants are just moved out of the way so pay them no attn)











I found that the little piece fits perfectly against the back of the other on one. It hasnt been in there long. It should soon darken up and match the other piece better. Im sorta digging it this way. I dont want the wood to take center stage, more of a subtle divider between sections than anything, a way to contain the carpet, etc..










Not sure I like the patch of moss on the very front of the big piece, may take that off. Im thinking glosso would probably creep up onto that part and look a lot better than the moss does. Probably do gloss in the middle and stauro on one of the sides. Still working all that out, as well as how the substrate is gonna slope.

The plants have took a beating these last couple days. :icon_eek: I took a couple things out, the rest have just been moved aside back and forth. Gonna try to finalize it tonight, hopefully get everything planted back tomorrow....


----------



## burr740

Plants are tentative, some things are just there to add some color and/or plant mass

Gotta little carried away cleaning the small piece of DW. Now it's light colored and doesnt match at all. Ive done this before, it should darken up pretty soon..











Put the glosso in the middle, small patch of stauro on the right




















Glosso











Osmocote+ put down under the stauro, did about the same thing for the gloss and micro sword on the left...











Surface shot of the light













Thanks for having a look.


----------



## burr740

9 days update



















































Put the 6500K back in place of the actinic. Front to back now,

ZM Flora
ZM Aqua
Trulumen Flora
Generic 6500K


----------



## Chizpa305

Nice description of the DIY CO2 system. I liked the idea of the adapters as seals. I used clay since it is oily and hydrophobic and can be molded tightly around any surface. It does the job great, but the setup you have looks cleaner. I also like the individual tubing for bubble checking. I have two 2-litter bottles in my tank for the CO2, but I never add new yeast. What I do is when it is time to change I take almost all the water out, leaving only a small fraction at the base where the yeast deposit is. I do this using a tube so that I don't agitate the deposit at the bottom. Then I add new water and new sugar (shake) and the yeast population starts to grow again slowly. I am too lazy to go to the store and buy new yeast lol. But this method works, it just takes longer for it to go full throttle-about four days after mixing. So that is why I have 2 bottles, I alternate the mixture renewals - one week I change one, the next week I change the other and so forth, that way the CO2 remains pretty stable.


----------



## burr740

Glosso should be ready for a mowing in another month or so. Added a small java fern to the left side of the wood. Notice the push pin...











Stauro filling in nicely










Yanked the micro sword in front left and put in some Topfin P helferi. It's 4 days old.

Need to find a better midground plant to replace this crypt. It's growing flat as a pancake. Also the one on the right side. Too much light I guess. Any suggestions?











One of the tips broke off the ZooMed Flora bulb :// Been rolling with this combo for a couple of weeks.

Front to back:
6500K generic
Actinic
3000K Plantmax hydroponic
ZooMed Ultra


----------



## philipraposo1982

even with my 1 finnex planted plus on my 75 I find my crypts don't grow too tall. I went for about a month of full mini water lettuce covering the surface and sure enough all my plants started to grow nice and tall. I think with all that light the crypts and other rosette type plants will stay very low.

Bump: tank is looking good though, good job.


----------



## burr740

Thanks philip. Yeah Im starting to see that. I went out of town for a couple of days and just turned the co2 and lights completely off. When I got back the crypts were standing straight up, like a whole different plant..


----------



## jart

Awesome pics... love the choices in plants. Nice healthy stems... nice flying foxes too! I'll need to read through the whole thread after the kids are in bed.


----------



## burr740

Thanks jart.

So I was fortunate enough to score one of Hoppy's new PAR meters. Holy crap, this is way more than I thought I had...












Stauro filling in well











Downoi is doing great. Yanked that red crypt and replaced it with another one. This is a brown wendtii, or undulata....Im not entirely sure.











Mowed down the glosso. It had gotten 3 layers deep. I saw Barr do it like this one time so Im just hoping for the best. :icon_eek: I have a little bit more in another tank so if it doesnt work out I'll just start it over..





















FTS wise, nothing much has changed. Still keeping the stems pruned low


----------



## Phil Edwards

I love this tank Burr! The old school simple planting in decent sized groups looks great and has a nice feel. Your plants look very healthy and happy too. Well done!

What part of 'Bama are you in? 

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## burr740

Thanks Phil. Im in the huntsville area


----------



## Mitashade

Beautiful. Coming in very nicely. I wouldn't worry about the glosso, I trim mine like that every 2 weeks and it comes right back in a few days.


----------



## burr740

Thanks Mitashade 

Man this Aquatek reg is getting on my last freakin nerve. It refuses to stay consistent. I can set it to one thing, come back two hours later and it's something else entirely. Lately it's gotten into the habit of starting and stopping. Like bllllllllllllllp...stop...blllllp...stop.

Anyway I just ordered a Fabco needle valve to replace the stock one. Hopefully that helps..


Downoi is coming in great. It is quickly becoming my favorite plant..











Glosso filling back in nicely after the trim. Getting a slight bit of algae, for which I blame on fluctuating CO2, but overall it seems to be out running it. 











Loving this front most green gecko, that's the same plant right behind it...go figure.












Gonna be tweaking the arrangement probably next trim. Have a couple ideas in mind...


Thanks for having a look


----------



## andrewss

the tank is lookin great so far! when it is really filled in it will be stunning


----------



## chinaboy1021

I love that black back panel and that black sand. What kind of sand is that? Is it readily available? 

Also root tabs, is it okay if you uproot them when replanting?

Btw, the one Altinic bulb you use, any algae issues?


----------



## burr740

chinaboy1021 said:


> I love that black back panel and that black sand. What kind of sand is that? Is it readily available?


Thanks. It's Black Diamond blasting sand. Tractor Supply carries it, $7.99 for a 50 lb bag.




chinaboy1021 said:


> Also root tabs, is it okay if you uproot them when replanting?


I can only speak re Osmocote+. Im constantly exposing loose individual balls. I just do whatever Im doing, and poke them back down when Im finished. It doesnt hurt a thing to uproot them, but I doubt you'd want to leave many of them scattered around unburied.




chinaboy1021 said:


> Btw, the one Altinic bulb you use, any algae issues?


Not as far as I can tell related to the actinic. Still using it. Had a little bba recently, most likely due to issues with the CO2 reg.

I really like the added color rendition it creates in combination with the other bulbs. Initially used it to reduce PAR a little bit, now I just love the way it looks.


----------



## chinaboy1021

Alright thanks!

Really digging your tank's contrast.


----------



## Freemananana

What size powerhead is that on the left? It also looks like you changed filters since the OP. I just skimmed through the first page, but it looks like a lot has changed in a good way! Good luck with the CO2.


----------



## Islandgaliam

burr740 said:


> Thanks Mitashade
> 
> Man this Aquatek reg is getting on my last freakin nerve. It refuses to stay consistent. I can set it to one thing, come back two hours later and it's something else entirely. Lately it's gotten into the habit of starting and stopping. Like bllllllllllllllp...stop...blllllp...stop.
> 
> Anyway I just ordered a Fabco needle valve to replace the stock one. Hopefully that helps..
> 
> 
> Downoi is coming in great. It is quickly becoming my favorite plant..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Glosso filling back in nicely after the trim. Getting a slight bit of algae, for which I blame on fluctuating CO2, but overall it seems to be out running it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loving this front most green gecko, that's the same plant right behind it...go figure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gonna be tweaking the arrangement probably next trim. Have a couple ideas in mind...
> 
> 
> Thanks for having a look


Just love this tank...nice job  My Aquatek gave me fits...either too much or not enough, had a hard time with keeping it from leaking. It got replaced with a GLA after I came home and the drop checker was yellow, all the fish were gasping at the top. Luckily I didn't lose any fish.


----------



## burr740

Freemananana said:


> What size powerhead is that on the left? It also looks like you changed filters since the OP. I just skimmed through the first page, but it looks like a lot has changed in a good way! Good luck with the CO2.


The circ pump is a Koralia Nano 425. Filter is SunSun 304B canister. And yeah a lot has changed since the OP...pretty much everything lol. Maybe I will add an updated equipment list to the OP.

Thanks for stopping by. 



Islandgaliam said:


> Just love this tank...nice job  My Aquatek gave me fits...either too much or not enough, had a hard time with keeping it from leaking. It got replaced with a GLA after I came home and the drop checker was yellow, all the fish were gasping at the top. Luckily I didn't lose any fish.


Thank you. So far Ive not had a problem with leaks, except for one time around the bubble counter which was my own fault. But that needle valve has been inconsistent from day one, and it's gotten a lot worse recently.

The Fabco NV is supposed to be in today :hihi:


----------



## tigerterror

That's one EXCELLENT planted tank!


----------



## bpb

Love this tank, following along. Probably going to be copying alot of what you're doing


----------



## burr740

Thanks guys. 

So I havent replaced the needle valve yet. The stock one is still a piece of crap, but it turns out the problem was the bubble counter. Apparently mineral oil will screw up the check valve in certain cheaper brass ones like I was using. There's a couple threads about it here if you title search mineral oil. Still going to install the new Fabco nv, it's just not as urgent now.

Couple of new pics...





















Usually keep the drop checker down low, a few inches from the bottom. I moved it up there out of the way to vacuum the stauro, then sorta forgot about it.













Not sure what Im going to do with the glosso. It's doing fine...I just dont like it. Curious how the center area would look with it completely gone, or with something else. Probably will trim it down again, and this time cut it way back off the glass and make a smaller patch, tapering someway. See how that goes...


----------



## Mitashade

Gorgeous.


----------



## bpb

Question for you. You're still using the 4x54 watt t5ho light fixture correct? How high do you have it over your tank?


----------



## Phil Edwards

How about an Eliocharis or Lilaeopsis where the Glosso is?


----------



## burr740

bpb said:


> Question for you. You're still using the 4x54 watt t5ho light fixture correct? How high do you have it over your tank?


Yeah, 4x54w Grow Crew hydroponic fixture. It's 6" above the surface, 130 PAR using Hoppy's new meter. If I'd known it was that much I probably wouldve raised it up a couple more inches. But since everything is doing well just gonna leave it where it is.



Phil Edwards said:


> How about an Eliocharis or Lilaeopsis where the Glosso is?


Actually have a little of both in another tank. Not sure if I want a grassy look right there. It's hard to see now, but the driftwood sorta has a small cave effect just under the moss. I'd like for that to show somehow, so I may abandon doing a full carpet of anything there. 

Im thinking maybe some Erio sp or if I can get a hold of some Blood vomit. I wouldnt hesitate to reduce or relocate some of the compact hygo. Also would like to work in some Blyxa somewhere, like a midground line of it on one side or the other. 

The left background is a work in progress. Need to fatten up the mermaid weed, and gonna adjust the AR as soon as it grows out some more. Those few sprigs of Moneywort will probably have to go at some point.


----------



## bsantucci

How on earth do you keep your plants growing so straight up? Even your Aromatica doesn't bend. My Aromatica bends, turns, corkscrews, never straight. 

Love your tank though, looks great!


----------



## Mikeygmzmg

Super sick. Love this tank. The black background is perfect too. Makes me want to go Dutch on my next scape.


----------



## Nazdaq

The blasting sand seems like an interesting option to aquarium sand/gravel. How much of a hassle is it? Since it is pretty much inert isnt it.


----------



## andrewss

such a lovely tank, you keep it in such a great condition


----------



## Freemananana

Nazdaq said:


> The blasting sand seems like an interesting option to aquarium sand/gravel. How much of a hassle is it? Since it is pretty much inert isnt it.


I use the same sand (I think) and it isn't a hassle at all. It holds plants, looks good and is cheap. You just have to substitute nutrition that you could find in other substrates.


----------



## The Dude

Man this tank looks awesome. I'm super big on lots of driftwood because I could never organize and scape a tank like this. It really looks fantastic


----------



## HunterX

I have enjoyed reading through this thread. Great looking tank. The plants are looking very healthy. I'm getting ready to set my 125G up and I'll be using your thread for inspiration.


----------



## bbfishin

Your tank has inspried me. Everything looks amazing... we can tell you spend a lot of time on your tank. I am just starting a planted 46G bow front but am still planning & ordering things (spending too much money as usual) :icon_twis. I hope things turn out for it... Im going the LED route and hope I have enough light with my Marineland Plant (36-48" model). I plan on starting a journal as things get going. Is it possible to get a current list of your plants? I look forward to seeing your updates and hope you dont mind if I shoot you a pm asking for advice from time to time. Thanks for sharing you journey.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Burr,

What about a Nymphaea or Nymphoides in the front? Once you get them trained to stay low and are ruthless with trimming any leaves that make a break for the top, they make good foreground plants and would contrast well with what you've got in there now.


----------



## burr740

Thanks for the kinds words everyone. 



bsantucci said:


> How on earth do you keep your plants growing so straight up? Even your Aromatica doesn't bend. My Aromatica bends, turns, corkscrews, never straight.


I give them a stern talking to every morning when the lights come on!

No idea really, it's just what they do. I just wish the aromatica would color up better. The tops had a lot more pink when I had less light and diy co2. Maybe it's a nutrient thing?



Nazdaq said:


> The blasting sand seems like an interesting option to aquarium sand/gravel. How much of a hassle is it? Since it is pretty much inert isnt it.


Yeah it's inert. I supplement with Osmocote+ around any heavy root feeders. For the carpeting plants I spread some loose balls underneath before planting. There's a pic showing how much a page or two back. 



bbfishin said:


> Your tank has inspried me. Everything looks amazing... we can tell you spend a lot of time on your tank. I am just starting a planted 46G bow front but am still planning & ordering things (spending too much money as usual) :icon_twis. I hope things turn out for it... Im going the LED route and hope I have enough light with my Marineland Plant (36-48" model). I plan on starting a journal as things get going. Is it possible to get a current list of your plants? I look forward to seeing your updates and hope you dont mind if I shoot you a pm asking for advice from time to time. Thanks for sharing you journey.


Left to right, approximately...

Back:
L aromatica
A reineckii
B monnieri (moneywort)
P palustris(mermaid weed)
Cabomba
Ludwigia sp red
Wisteria

Mid:
Crypt wedtii brown (I think)
Small Java fern on the DW
Hygrophila Corymbosa var Compac
Moss on wood is java
Crypt green gecko

Front:
P helferi (downoii)
Glosso
S repens

Feel free to mssg me any time. Be glad to help if I can 



Phil Edwards said:


> Burr,
> 
> What about a Nymphaea or Nymphoides in the front? Once you get them trained to stay low and are ruthless with trimming any leaves that make a break for the top, they make good foreground plants and would contrast well with what you've got in there now.


Thanks for the suggestion. The smaller red varieties are intriguing, would like to have one of those somewhere. Actually had a couple of some kind of brown ones at one time. I apparently killed them with aggressive pruning, must've not doing something right. They got so big and would send out a new runner to the surface literally every couple of days.


----------



## Xirxes

What water column fert and CO2 regimen are you on? EI dosing?


----------



## burr740

Xirxes said:


> What water column fert and CO2 regimen are you on? EI dosing?


CO2 is pressurized, more or less a steady stream of bubbles. Diffusion is a Sera Flor reactor. It comes on 2 hours before the lights, and goes off 1 hour before. PH drops about 1.1 from degassed tank water.

Using dry ferts from GLA, roughly based on EI. I go a little heavier on P to maintain over 5 ppm, otherwise gsa starts to appear. Nitrates stay in the 30-40 range. Im thinking about scaling that back to see if it brings out more color in the L aromatica. Everything else is pretty much standard EI doses. Currently no extra Fe, just 1/2 tsp csmb 3x week.


----------



## Sarraa

Completely blown away by your tank! 
I'm starting up my first planted tank next week and I can only pray it looks half as amazing as yours! High five!


----------



## Hilde

burr740 said:


> The java moss was one of the first things I bought when I decided to change the tank. Had less light at the time


How did you get it to attach to the rock?


----------



## burr740

Thanks Sarraa 



Hilde said:


> How did you get it to attach to the rock?


I just wrapped with thread to begin with, 100% cotton. In a couple months when the thread dissolved the moss was stuck. Although Ive read where java doesnt attach as fast or as well as some others, in my case it worked pretty well.


This is Java here on the DW now. It came back on it's own from total oblivion. You can see it on the same wood in the very early pics, then I later took it off. Actually had the wood under the faucet scraping every last bit of it with a wire brush and knife blade. 

Few months later it started to reappear, from literally nothing. Glad it did, I like it now











Made a few changes the other day. Will get some new pics up shortly...


----------



## burr740

Swapped places with the wisteria and L red. I like the ludwigia being on the far end, seems like it broadens the tank from a visual perspective.

Also added an Argentine sword behind the dw, in front of the wisteria. Seen a few pics of wistria behind a sword plant and thought the contrast in leaf structure created a nice effect. Well see..

The middle/left background is still a work in progress. Waiting for the mermaid weed to fatten up then do a little rearranging. 

Not crazy about the cabomba in the middle. Need something that contrasts better with the green wisteria. May try a wider patch of the AR and then move the mermaid weed into that middle back area.


----------



## dpod

:drool:

need I say more? The colors on your plants are incredible! Beautiful tank!

If you're unsure about the cabomba in the middle, what about switching it with the L. aromatica (?) on the far left?


----------



## burr740

Thanks for kind words  and I may do something like that


----------



## andrewss

looks great


----------



## bbfishin

lookin good as always. The color on your A. reineckii is amazing. Do you dose iron too? Have you ever considered adding some Blue Rams to the tank? I love keeping them... they are fun to watch and there are several interesting varieties, especially the electric blue ram and the balloon ram. Keep up the great work!


----------



## burr740

Thanks andrewss.



bbfishin said:


> lookin good as always. The color on your A. reineckii is amazing. Do you dose iron too? Have you ever considered adding some Blue Rams to the tank? I love keeping them... they are fun to watch and there are several interesting varieties, especially the electric blue ram and the balloon ram. Keep up the great work!


Actually the AR is not quite as radiant in person because the leaves are always aimed upwards it seems. So what you're seeing the pics is the undersides (very bright compared to the top). I dont think it likes/needs this much light.

No extra Fe, 1/2 tsp csm-b 3x week and that's it. (slightly less actually. I stop just short of leveling the spoon up)

Would love some rams, but currently there's not really any holes or caves they could occupy. Underneath the DW is not as much "cave" as it looks like. It's more of a shadow than anything.

Thanks for stopping by!


----------



## Freemananana

My rams don't occupy my caves very much. I've seen a couple people keep rams without caves too, even on this site. Just throwing it out there. I have never seen my two rams in my caves. My cories go in them, but not the rams.

Your tank is looking awesome as always. I personally do like the moss. Kind of a goofy story haha. I'll keep stopping by and watching the progress.


----------



## burr740

Thanks Fremananana, your tank is coming along very nicely too 


Here's some very tentative ideas for the near future. Be glad to hear any other suggestions...












1. AR goes here. As that one java fern grows, I think it will look good behind it.

2. Mermaid weed. Lately Ive been replanting the stumps in a another little grow out tank to let sprout side shoots, so there's more of this on the way.

3. Possibly another brown wendtii...or something

4. Thinking about removing a lot of the downoi and doing a little carpet of HC or monte carlo on the very end here. 

5. Something green with contrasting texture, could just move the cabomba here, or somr Bacopa carolina? Or maybe just broaden the aromatica rather than adding another species.

Also on the far right, thinking about reducing the stauro a little bit and adding something to make that area more interesting. Something like a small line of Tonia lotus blossom, or a patch of it somehow. Ive been wanting to try that plant


----------



## Kindafishy

You have a beautiful tank, burr. What is the small green plant just behind the P. helferi?


----------



## bpb

I'm amazed that there is not one single spec of algae on this tank considering the light levels.


----------



## burr740

Kindafishy said:


> You have a beautiful tank, burr. What is the small green plant just behind the P. helferi?


Thank you! The plant is _Hygrophila Corymbosa var Compact_, AKA Corymbosa compact AKA Compact hygro, etc



bpb said:


> I'm amazed that there is not one single spec of algae on this tank considering the light levels.


Oh there is definitely some algae in there if you look close. It just doesnt show up in pics. :red_mouth

Mainly it's just a few hints of bba, gsa and gda...here and there. It comes and goes, usually on the very old growth of certain things.


----------



## burr740

Had a lot more success trimming the Stauro this time around. Basically pinched every stem off down to the horizontal roots, except for the really small ones...


:icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek:











5 weeks later, came back tight and low.

(gourami trying to photo bomb)



















Overall the tank is sorta in a state of flux. Im in the process of re-homing a lot of things to make more room. Then planning a slight re-scape.


----------



## Immortal1

burr740 said:


> Oh there is definitely some algae in there if you look close. It just doesnt show up in pics. :red_mouth


Gotta love PhotoShop! Just kidding.
Your Stauro is looking really good now. May have to try some carpeting plants one of these days.


----------



## burr740

Things that make you go hmmm....


Degassed tank water -











1 hour after lights on -


----------



## Immortal1

hmmmmm.....

An interesting scenario. One that I have also looked into a bit. In the end, I gave up trying to figure it out.


----------



## klibs

burr my dude I have a similar pH drop but it ain't no thang

~8 all the way down to ~6.55 during the photoperiod.

Do your fish show any signs of stress?



Immortal1 said:


> hmmmmm.....
> 
> An interesting scenario. One that I have also looked into a bit. In the end, I gave up trying to figure it out.


me too lol


----------



## burr740

sup klibs, thanks for stopping by! Livestock doesnt seem to notice a difference, neons and flying foxes are usually the first to show signs of distress

The Neons turn pale and huddle together on the bottom, ff's go to the surface and gasp for air.


----------



## klibs

DHG is the bane of my existence... Good luck! I'll have to stop by again and check out what you end up with


----------



## burr740




----------



## BayazGouramiz

Any new pics? Ur tank is my favorite I think. I like it even more than Tommy Barrs maybe. Its exactly want I want my tank to look like, maybe a bit fuller but that's it.


----------



## burr740

BayazGouramiz said:


> Any new pics? Ur tank is my favorite I think. I like it even more than Tommy Barrs maybe. Its exactly want I want my tank to look like, maybe a bit fuller but that's it.


Wow, thanks a lot! 

Re-scape is still in the planning stages. I know about what I wanna do everywhere except for the back right. Decided to take the big log out. It's taking up way too much floor space for what is essentially a divider. 


Got a couple new plants recently. The one little Blood Vomit I posted above. Only bought one to see if it does well in my tank. I've read it likes soft water, softer than mine, I wanted to try it out before dropping 100 bucks on 5 or 6.


3 stems of Tonina lotus blossom -










Like an idiot I floated them in another tank for about three days because I was busy...and they curled up BAD. Everything above the twist is new growth, there's also a few side shoots forming. They'll be fine in a few weeks...but seriously how hard would it have been to stick three stems in the sub?? :facepalm:

Also you'll notice the Downoi is freshly planted. I sold off most of the entire carpet, kept just enough to start it over..


Rotala indica I got from user TreyLCham (thanks, mate!) It's converting from emersed growth. Have several more in another tank, planning a big cluster somewhere..











Mowed the stauro again. The section on the right I left untouched. Trying to experiment with creating contours.


----------



## bpb

I can't get my AR to look like that for the life of me


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## burr740

bpb said:


> I can't get my AR to look like that for the life of me


I struggled with it for several months too. It looked Ok in full tank pictures, but in person it was pretty bad. Finally added some root tabs underneath and it immediately perked up. It's still not exactly right but it's doing a whole lot better.


----------



## BayazGouramiz

burr740 said:


> I struggled with it for several months too. It looked Ok in full tank pictures, but in person it was pretty bad. Finally added some root tabs underneath and it immediately perked up. It's still not exactly right but it's doing a whole lot better.


How many hours are you running your lights now?


----------



## burr740

BayazGouramiz said:


> How many hours are you running your lights now?


Generally I run them for a continuous 8 hours. If I do a big trim or re-scape, where a lot of plant mass is removed, I may go to 6.5-7 hours for a few days until things catch back up.

Ive changed out a few bulbs recently so PAR is slightly less now, about 120 at the sub. Current bulbs are B-F

TrueLumen Flora
Plantmax 6500K
ZM Flora Sun
Truelumen Flora that's about 15 months old. Did a par test between it and a brand new one. The older bulb had 31 PAR, the new one was about 42. So that's about 25% drop off, which I found interesting. They look about the same to the eye, but I suspect the spectrum has changed some too.


----------



## burr740

Sunday 8/23




















The First Draft. :red_mouth











I changed it around some more after that. Now letting it grow out for a week or two then do a trim and shape.


----------



## burr740

Grow out mode...











Got most everything tentatively placed where I think it's going to stay. There's a couple spaces I want to add another species, and a couple species I plan to change for something else. 

For now just going with what I have on hand, gonna let it thicken up in the meantime and work on my pruning skills.












Planning some moss on the little piece of dw. Im thinking fissidens or mini pellia, need to do a bit more research. 

Very back left is Bacopa carolina that you can barely see. Thinking I might want something different back there eventually, will see what it looks like first, once it catches up.


----------



## klibs

Hope it all fills in nicely for you!

What powerhead do you run in addition to the HOBs? Is that a koralia 425?

What is your secret to AR? Mine sucks and just gets bombed by GSA and is generally unhealthy


----------



## burr740

Thanks klibs

I dont have HOBs on this tank. Filter is a SunSun 304B, no spray bar, sparsely packed with media. The circ pump is a koralia 425, using a Sera Flore 500 reactor for the CO2. 

The AR perked up when I put root tabs around it (osmocote+). Plus Ive been running macros a bit leaner recently. Trying to stay in the 15-20 ppm nitrates, down from 40+. Hasnt really affected the AR but everything else is showing a lot better color. P in the 4-5 ppm range, any less and gsa comes with a quickness.


----------



## mishe

Your tank has lovely color.
Can I ask what plants are the red ones to your left?


----------



## burr740

Thanks mishe. Red plants on the left side are Alternanthera Reineckii, commonly referred to as AR.


----------



## klibs

Thought you had HOBs - I think it says that on your first page. Oh well.

Ditto that on reducing macros - I have been reducing my dosing by quite a bit. My rotala is killing it so I'm assuming all is well. Used to run pretty high nitrates now I barely dose any and it still stays up around 20+. Doing like 1/2 EI with extra Fe right now with good results.

I'll try throwing some more osmocote under the my AR.


----------



## burr740

Yeah I started out using HOBs, but they've been gone well over a year now.

Guess I should update the OP to show the current equipment.


----------



## falcooo

Tank looks awesome! I can't wait to see how everything fills in.


----------



## burr740

Thanks falcooo. Plan on changing it up soon....again. Got some small pieces of dw coming from Tom barr that Im thinking about using as dividers between groups on the bottom, doing a little moss on them maybe. Hard as I try, I just cant seem to leave well enough alone. 


Getting some insane color out the Mermaid weed. Pics arent touched at all. This is exactly how it looks in person.











As I mentioned before, lately Ive been working to reduce nitrates to hopefully get better color out of everything. They've been down around 5-10 for a couple of weeks (as best I can tell from the API chart). P still around 5, K in the 15 range. (Big thanks to PortalMasteryRy for testing my K levels.

Things have honestly never looked better.











Well, almost everything. The T lotus blossom is seriously struggling. 











I think either my water is simply too hard with a KH ~8, or it's just not liking the super low nitrates. My guess is the latter because it's mainly the lower old growth that's doing so bad. 

Added some Mini pellia to the little piece of dw. It's been about 10 days or so. Hard to tell in the pic but the hints of lighter green is new growth.


Finally getting decent color out of the L aromatica. It's more orangey than I'd like, but at least it's not solid green.












Nothing much to see FTS wise. Moved a few things around, that's about it.


----------



## Daisy Mae

Your tank just looks so tidy! 
Would you happen to be afflicted with CDO (according to my other half that's OCD the proper alphabetical way). 

Kidding aside, the tank just looks downright good.


----------



## burr740

Thanks Daisy. OCD, DCO, MTS...you name it, Ive probably got it. :red_mouth


Also forgot to mention I finally swapped out the needle valve in this Aquateck reg. Replaced it with a Fabco NV55. Works a lot better so far, big difference. It's great being able to adjust it and actually see the change in real time, vs having to wait a few minutes/hours to see where it's really at. Plus it doesnt randomly wander off all of a sudden.


----------



## burr740

:nerd:


----------



## quiquik

I'm not sure if I missed it but, what are your plans with this tank. It is a different tank right?


----------



## burr740

Nope, same tank. Took all the plants out, added a bit more sand for some height in the back, and some manzy wood. Planning a Tom Barr style layout using basically the same plants I had, for the time being..

Currently in the process of re-planting. Will get some new pics up soon.


----------



## Immortal1

Oh wow! Thought for a minute "new tank, cool" then read "same tank" and thought WHAT!!! Holy crap! 
Look forward to how the new setup turns out  Sure it will be a thing of beauty again.


----------



## bpb

I like the reboot idea. Keep things fresh


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## quiquik

burr740 said:


> Nope, same tank. Took all the plants out, added a bit more sand for some height in the back, and some manzy wood. Planning a Tom Barr style layout using basically the same plants I had, for the time being..
> 
> Currently in the process of re-planting. Will get some new pics up soon.


Ok I'll be following the progress thanks Burr.


----------



## burr740




----------



## quiquik

burr740 said:


>


Really like the wood burr. Did you use O+ in the substrate again and if so how much did you use this time.


----------



## burr740

Thanks @quiquik.

The lower pieces are white because I used a little bleach while soaking them. It should all turn dark and look the same in a couple of weeks.

No additional O+

Will post some full tank pics here shortly.


----------



## burr740

So here's what I wound up with, pretty happy with the wood arrangement.

I wont go into much detail about the plants because so much is tentative for now, and lots of the stem plants are not at their best. Sold off most all the good stuff recently and kept just enough to start over. Many of these were previously in grow out or holding tanks, undergoing fert experiments, or just sitting there....so not many prime specimens atm. 

The foreground and mid ground is pretty much set. I want to do some different things with the taller stem groups though, try some different species, etc. The wisteria for example is not even planted, it's a floating bunch weighted at the bottom just filling up space.

Anyhoo, onto the pics... :red_mouth





















The little gnarly piece of wood on top of the main stump isnt attached. It's just sitting on top growing out some mini pellia. Which, if it does well, I plan on covering the top portion of the stump with that. Might leave it though cause I think it looks pretty good on top, even though it's a separate piece. Depends on how well it blends in and matches after a while.


----------



## quiquik

Nice layout burr, the wisteria is for me anyway like a big ball of clay that I can shape and mold any way I want. It grows for me very nice of course it is an easy plant to grow. About every week or two I sit in front of the tank and plan my moves for the shaping or replanting of plants, then on wc day I do my scaping and finish cleaning the tank. Wish I had room for a bigger tank. There are times when I wish it was like 8 foot long and about 2 foot deeper.:grin2:


----------



## Immortal1

Liking the new layout burr! Will be interesting to see how this all grows in in a few months.
On another note, I see your intake is in the middle, output back right and circ fan front right. Very similar to mine except my intake is in the back left. Wondering if your arrangement would be better (center intake) for overall tank water movement.


----------



## burr740

quiquik said:


> Nice layout burr, the wisteria is for me anyway like a big ball of clay that I can shape and mold any way I want. It grows for me very nice of course it is an easy plant to grow. About every week or two I sit in front of the tank and plan my moves for the shaping or replanting of plants, then on wc day I do my scaping and finish cleaning the tank. Wish I had room for a bigger tank. There are times when I wish it was like 8 foot long and about 2 foot deeper.:grin2:


It grows like crazy for me too. I should probably spend more time and effort learning how to shape it effectively, it contrasts so well with just about anything.


----------



## burr740

Immortal1 said:


> Liking the new layout burr! Will be interesting to see how this all grows in in a few months.
> On another note, I see your intake is in the middle, output back right and circ fan front right. Very similar to mine except my intake is in the back left. Wondering if your arrangement would be better (center intake) for overall tank water movement.


Ideally, I'd have the intake either on the far left, as you describe, on the far right, same side as the outflow and the circulation pump. I believe having it on the right would be ideal. Both outflows blow across the top, the water then hits the opposite wall, goes downward, and then sorta meanders back across the lower regions of tank towards the right.

But...the filter tubing isnt long enough to reach to the far left, due to where it has to sit, and when the intake is on the far right the built in surface skimmer doesnt really do anything because there's so much surface agitation there. And I do get a bit of surface film mainly on the left half without it.

Having it in the middle is more out of necessity than any sort of logic. Ive been meaning to change out the tubing so it will reach all the way left and try it that way, just havent got around to it. Seems to work pretty well as it is however. Flow is good throughout. I keep a drop checker down very low on the right, which is about the stillest point in the tank, it stays a nice lime green to yellow just like everywhere else.


----------



## Immortal1

Ok, so maybe the arrangement I have (intake far left) is not necessarily a bad thing. Read somewhere else where somebody setup the intake and the output on the same end as you described. Just was curious on your thoughts. Built in surface skimmer??? I am curious. Any details?


----------



## burr740

Immortal1 said:


> Ok, so maybe the arrangement I have (intake far left) is not necessarily a bad thing. Read somewhere else where somebody setup the intake and the output on the same end as you described. Just was curious on your thoughts. Built in surface skimmer??? I am curious. Any details?


Filter is SunSun 304B canister which has a built in surface skimmer. It's the little 90 degree pipe you see coming out of intake tube. It's not a super effective skimmer, but it works pretty well as long as the filter isnt packed with tons of media. I tend to run it pretty lean anyway to get the most flow.


----------



## BayazGouramiz

Whats up Barr, I mean Burr xD Its been like two months since I even fed my plants or cleaned or did a water change...., so lame. But wow man your tank is amazing, and you've changed it yet again. Everything grows so fast, and is so healthy in your tank. I'm so happy for u  I aspire to one day have a tank with lush think healthy growht in all my species... I'm so fcking tired of things not growing right... SO here is a lil run down on what I wanted to talk to you about.

After pretty much letting my tank go because nothing was doing well imho. I've decided to try this one more time... As I was thinking about what the hell is wrong with my tank that doesn't allow me to grow Repens, Downoi, Gois, Erios(a few have done well), Mermaid weed, and many more; i figured my best bet was to try and figure out what your doing again. Especially since your tank is similar.

We both have 75G, both have 4 bulb T5HO's, both do EI's, and we both have aquatech co2 regs on 10lb tanks, we both have some ozmocote tabs. OH yeah we both have co2 reactors, mine is DIY Cerges Reactor, cant remember what yours is.
Think that about does it for similarities. 

My soil is a mix of Turface and ADA Amazonia Malaysia or w/e, and I think your using BDBS still? If so I can change to that pretty easy.

I have more filtration I think. You have a sunsun, and I have eheim 2217, and a rena xp filstar L. I think I may have to much circulation if thats possible idk, and you have a Hydor Koralia Nano Aquarium Circulation Pump 425? I think i may pick one of those up just to ensure circulation isn't the issue.

So anyways the plants I bought from you slowly died, except for the mermaid weed, and the aromatica. Finally got the Aromatica dialed in, and the mermaid weed is growing better finally and I dont know why. Maybe because with no dosing for 3 plus weeks and almost dying and then starting to clean things up I hit a good range of ferts. Still considering that they are not even as nice as when I opened the box. The AR died the slow no growth weird death march to GSA... So annoying and defeating... that being said I have a few questions for you.

What ferts do you use and is your EI's schedule the generic every other day, micro macro, one day off thing? 

Do you use Excel? 

How often do you clean?

How far is your light from the surface of the water?

How deep is your soil?

Whats your GH, KH etc. How do you manage that?

Why do you think plants like Red Ludwigia, and Rubins, get weird dead mushy patches after getting an unhealthy look with discoloration and the leaves fall off too... It looks similiar to AR's that arent growing, but the AR"S dont ever get to the point where leaves fall off, and the discoloration isn't as pronounced. This always happens to the Rubens and it always happens after periods of the plant doing really well. I do not see any reason for it. I know its hard to tell but maybe you've seen this type of problem before. I think this plant is indicating whats wrong with my tank. The problem is it doesn't look like any deficiencies that I look up. 

I'm also thinking about taking my fish to the LFS so I can get rid of fish waste, and fish food, and I can pump the co2 in higher than ever. Seems like it would help to get things dialed in.


Anyways I feel the plant bug again and I will be stepping up my efforts one last time ... That being said I look forward to any response, and talking to you soon. 

Peace


----------



## burr740

Hey Bayaz! Thank you for the compliments, and sorry to hear about your struggles. Be sure it happens to the best of them though, so dont lose heart! :red_mouth 

Reading about your symptoms, the first thing that jumped out to me was possible micro toxicity, either directly or indirectly caused by too much csm-b. I went through similar issues about a year ago, fried a bunch of plants, had a helluva time for several months, esp with redder species. 

Micro tox is quite the hot topic lately, here's a couple of threads which may be helpful 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...ameters/853001-csm-b-toxicity-experiment.html
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...89849-deficiency-overdose-csm-b-toxicity.html

What has worked pretty well for the past year is csm-b dosed at .1 or .2 ppm Fe, and 11% DTPA Fe at .1 ppm - 3x week. Dosing csmb at .1 has proven better than .2 (EI calls for .5) Others are claiming as low as .05 or even .01 works best for them. While many others are dosing full amounts without issues. I really dont know what the difference is, not sure anyone else does either. I just know what seems to work better for me.

But...I still have not been able to get certain species to look exactly right, red ludwigia, AR, Syn belem mainly. So Im still toying with things. 

Current dosing, calculated for 65 gallons of actual water:

*Macros, 3x week*
KNO3 - 5 ppm
KH2PO4 - 1.5 ppm
K2SO4 - 5 ppm

*Micros 3x week*
Flourish Comprehensive dosed at .07 ppm Fe (trying this out for a while instead of csmb)
Fe 11% DTPA at .1 ppm

~60% water change usually every 5 days, occasionally 7 between. Probably once a month something like 80-85%.

10 ppm Mg via Epsom salt on water change days. Tap is high in Ca with very little Mg.

*Other parameters:*
GH 8-9
KH 6-7
PH 7.6 out of the tap, 7.8 degassed from tank, ~6.4 with CO2

_Do you use Excel?_ No.

_How often do you clean?_ Canister about every 4-6 weeks, water changes as mentioned above. I make it a point to remove dead or dying leaves, skim the substrate surface with a vacuum at water changes, fluff the carpets with a vacuum to suck out mulm, etc, In general I try to keep things super clean.

_How far is your light from the surface of the water?_ 6 inches, about 120 PAR at sub according to Hoppy's meter. Typically an 8 hour photo period. I may cut it back an hour or so for a few days after a big trim or rescape.

_How deep is your soil?_ Ranges from 4" in some areas to 1.5", 100% blasting sand


If I were you, I would do a couple of back to back 80% water changes to reset the nutrient levels. Then start back with maybe 1/2 EI amounts for macros, and micros dosed at .1 or .2 ppm using Fe as proxy. Watch the plants and go from there. 

Dont skimp on water changes. Plants love it and algae hates it. Things can go south in a hurry on a highly driven tank. Frequent water changes will cover a multitude of issues.

Good luck, and thanks for stopping by my journal. Let me know if you get ready for some new plants. :red_mouth


----------



## BayazGouramiz

That updated pic doe o.0 wow man so awesome!!! 
Nice, thank you for such a detailed response. I can definitely see some areas that I can improve now. Mainly cleaning, and managing the ferts better. I also need to do the pH co2 tests as I've nvr done that. Also my gh and kh are way lower and I have no idea how much calcium I have. I'm concerned I need some. So a few more questions hehe

What brand of macros do you use? And are you using pps pro or w/e its called. If not do you know an easy way to calculate tsp to ppm? I think I will start using the flourish as well.

How are you testing your ferts cuz my nitrate test is always saying I have like 80-160ppm... I use the api master kit. I also have a TDS digital test, but I've nvr used that.

And do you have test kit for iron, and calcium? If so what do u recommend. Thanks again


----------



## burr740

I have no way to test for Ca and Fe. Should be able to google your city's water report and see roughly how much Ca and Mg is in your tap. I got my exact results courtesy of @PortalMasteryRy. He tested a few peoples water with some sort of swanky test device. (Thanks mate!) 

If your GH is low, it'd be good to add some GH booster, which consists of Ca, Mg, and usually some K. 

KH lower than mine is actually desirable, say in the 2-4 range. Ive had trouble in the past growing soft water species like Tonina and Syn belem, although the latter seems to be coming around now (fingers crossed)

Best thing to use for PH is a digital test pen. They're like $20 on amazon, and you'll need some calibration solution. It'll require frequent calibration. I'll use mine a few times over a couple of days, then it might sit for a month. I will calibrate it again next time I break it out.

I use dry ferts from GLA, the EI package. The PPS-Pro pack comes with additional Mg, but I just use Epsom salt. They also have GH booster. I have some of that too but dont need the Ca. 

For nitrates and phosphate I use the API liquid tests, ballpark figure is about all they are good for though. I just try to keep N around 20 and P near 5.

I dont really follow a specific routine like PPS or EI. Closer to EI because that's what I started with, then after a while learned that I needed a bit less of certain macros, and way less micros (apparently). I dont even know what other systems like pps call for. IMO they all should be treated like very general starting points only. Observe the plants and go from there.

@Zorfox has great nutrient calculator, cant find the link to the online version, here's the download - Zorfox's Planted Tank Calculator. Use that to calculate doses. It will show the result of a specific dose, or how much to add to reach a certain ppm, in both grams and tsp, dry or solutions, etc. It's really great!


----------



## quiquik

Hey Burr, when you re-calibrate your ph pen do you use the packets or do you have the bottles of calibration solution? I've been checking online and heard that the shelf life of the bottles are not that long.


----------



## burr740

quiquik said:


> Hey Burr, when you re-calibrate your ph pen do you use the packets or do you have the bottles of calibration solution? I've been checking online and heard that the shelf life of the bottles are not that long.


Im using solutions, claims to have a 1 year shelf life but I really cant say. My understanding is that the 4.0 holds it's value the longest, 7.0 degrades faster, and 10 degrades the fastest.


----------



## quiquik

burr740 said:


> Im using solutions, claims to have a 1 year shelf life but I really cant say. My understanding is that the 4.0 holds it's value the longest, 7.0 degrades faster, and 10 degrades the fastest.


Ok Thanks appreciate it.


----------



## BayazGouramiz

burr740 said:


> I have no way to test for Ca and Fe. Should be able to google your city's water report and see roughly how much Ca and Mg is in your tap.


I can't understand the report , I will post it maybe, and see if someone can figure it out. 



burr740 said:


> If your GH is low, it is usually good to add some GH booster, which consists of Ca, Mg, and usually some K.
> 
> KH lower than mine is actually desirable, say in the 2-4 range. Ive had trouble in the past growing soft water species like Tonina and Syn belem, although the latter seems to be coming around now (fingers crossed)


Yeah mine comes out at around 1 KH and 1 GH.... Tonia grew wonderful until I let everything go... Oh well. I have been using Seachem Equilibrium, and I also have some GH booster from nilocg, but I like the Seachem stuff better cuz it dissolves faster. I also have a lil bit of crushed coral in my filter, not sure if I like it. I haven't even checked kh since I put it in. I will be testing and adding baking soda as needed. I also have mgso4 I use to .. I have no idea how to ad that what is using GH booster. 



burr740 said:


> Best thing to use for PH is a digital test pen.


I will pick one up for sure.



burr740 said:


> Zorfox's Planted Tank Calculator[/url]. Use that to calculate doses. It will show the result of a specific dose, or how much to add to reach a certain ppm, in both grams and tsp, dry or solutions, etc. It's great!


With all this info I feel hopeful I can get it dialed in. I really appreciate bit, I'll get back in touch cuz I will buy some plants soon I hope, and give an update.


----------



## burr740

Think now it just needs some time to fill in and hopefully color up a few species, and keep the scissors handy in the meantime.....


----------



## bpb

This tank has gone from good to spectacular. Updated bulb combo? What are you running now and are you using a sump?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## burr740

bpb said:


> This tank has gone from good to spectacular. Updated bulb combo? What are you running now and are you using a sump?


Thanks bpb. Current bulbs are 1 Plantmax 6500K, 2 TrueLumen Floras, and 1 Zoo-med Flora Sun. 

Filter is a SunSun 304B canister. I hope to someday upgrade to using a sump....and a bigger tank. 



*EDIT:* Updated all the details in the OP, equipment, params, dosing, etc


----------



## Blackheart

Tank looks amazing  Truly inspiring!! Almost kinda looks dutch themed.


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## MrFishTank5372

indeed, very inspirational. keep up the good job


----------



## Little Soprano

Beautiful tank!!


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## sprint_9

Absolutely great tank. Im using it as inspiration to get my act together, I have always wanted something that looked this good but being new to the hobby I havent had much success early on. 

One question I have for you that has been a problem area for me is your Co2 reactor. Are you still using this one, Sera Flore Active CO2 Reactor 500? Based on your front page it looks like you are. How are you plumbed or how do you have the reactor part set up? And would you recommend that reactor? Ive had trouble getting my Co2 to be where I want and have had algae problems as a result. Thanks for any help.


----------



## BayazGouramiz

Thanks for posting the new pics I really enjoy looking at them. 

I haven't went back and looked through the thread to see what plants you have. That being said what is the plant on the right that kind of looks like Anubias. Its very interesting, and I think i want to find a way to put it in my tank. Also is that ET in the foreground or Pearlweed? I can't tell what the plant is on the right that's right in between the AR mini and the Rubin, it kind of looks like some sort Syngonanthus? 

What a great use of the Pinta too. Such a hard plant to fit in to a setup like yours, but you've managed to find the perfect way to do it. On a lil side note I finally tested my water. I have unknowingly gotten my GH up to 8-9 and my KH up to 5... I have been adding more on water changes and every other day with the micros. Adding like a Teaspoon 3 times a week... and 2 Tsp of Epsom salt, and all I have is 8gh. The great thing about it is that my new growth is finally looking robust. Stalks on certain plants are thicker and the tank already looks 70% better. Will be ordering plants soon. Still got some weird wrinkles on a few new leaves. It kind of looks like a plant that is in the shade for a few days, and then u stick it out in full sun, and you get the first signs of stress when the leaves get little dimples. Thats what some plants are still doing. 

Another thing is that my Nitrogen is again, as it always does, reading at 80-160. I wonder if this is for real.... I have two nitrogen tests and they both say the same thing. I dose the correct 3/4 tsp 3 times a week, and I dont over feed. I only have like 15 small fish, and 2 Gouramis. Do you think Osmocote could still be leaching out at 6 months? There are a lot of balls on the surface. 

I had fun today cleaning the tank and planting a few plants, I feel hopeful now and I'm excited again. With all of your help my tank is really starting to come back from the brink being trashed.


----------



## burr740

sprint_9 said:


> Absolutely great tank. Im using it as inspiration to get my act together, I have always wanted something that looked this good but being new to the hobby I havent had much success early on.
> 
> One question I have for you that has been a problem area for me is your Co2 reactor. Are you still using this one, Sera Flore Active CO2 Reactor 500? Based on your front page it looks like you are. How are you plumbed or how do you have the reactor part set up? And would you recommend that reactor? Ive had trouble getting my Co2 to be where I want and have had algae problems as a result. Thanks for any help.


Thanks sprint. Yeah still using the Sera 500. It does the job fairly well, surprisingly effective actually, considering the small size. Im pumping a ton of gas through it, literally a steady stream of bubbles. It's dead silent too. 

Only thing I do get a bit of mist coming out with the CO2 turned up so high. I dont mind a little mist in the tank, only thing is I could probably get by using a lot less CO2 with a more efficient reactor.

I have it plumbed into the outflow tube of the SunSun 304B canister, about 18" away from the filter, with about 4' of head beyond that going to the tank. 

The owners manual calls for a minimum of 132 gph for the 500 model. The SunSun is rated at 525, obviously not that much with media installed, but I run it pretty lean as far as media goes, so Im thinking it's probably at least half of that, 250 or so. But that's just a guess.

I believe you can download the manuals in pdf off the Sera website if you want more information.

In retrospect I should've gotten the 1000 model, but I really didnt know what I was doing at the time, and well.....it said good for 60-150 gal tanks. :/

Got plans to DIY a cerges in the near future, but it's not exactly at the top of my priority list.


----------



## Liplant

Amazing tanks 
How long do
You run your lights for ?


----------



## sprint_9

Thanks for the quick reply Burr. I will definitely look into them a little closer, its nice to see a review from someone that is getting such great results. I went DIY Rex Grigg style for my reactor and seem to not get any diffusion at all, along with some of the annoying noises it makes. Im sure I could fine tune but not sure its worth the time. The more i think about it the more I lean toward something like a Sera, or a Cerges.


----------



## burr740

BayazGouramiz said:


> Thanks for posting the new pics I really enjoy looking at them.
> 
> I haven't went back and looked through the thread to see what plants you have. That being said what is the plant on the right that kind of looks like Anubias. Its very interesting, and I think i want to find a way to put it in my tank. Also is that ET in the foreground or Pearlweed? I can't tell what the plant is on the right that's right in between the AR mini and the Rubin, it kind of looks like some sort Syngonanthus?
> 
> What a great use of the Pinta too. Such a hard plant to fit in to a setup like yours, but you've managed to find the perfect way to do it. On a lil side note I finally tested my water. I have unknowingly gotten my GH up to 8-9 and my KH up to 5... I have been adding more on water changes and every other day with the micros. Adding like a Teaspoon 3 times a week... and 2 Tsp of Epsom salt, and all I have is 8gh. The great thing about it is that my new growth is finally looking robust. Stalks on certain plants are thicker and the tank already looks 70% better. Will be ordering plants soon. Still got some weird wrinkles on a few new leaves. It kind of looks like a plant that is in the shade for a few days, and then u stick it out in full sun, and you get the first signs of stress when the leaves get little dimples. Thats what some plants are still doing.
> 
> Another thing is that my Nitrogen is again, as it always does, reading at 80-160. I wonder if this is for real.... I have two nitrogen tests and they both say the same thing. I dose the correct 3/4 tsp 3 times a week, and I dont over feed. I only have like 15 small fish, and 2 Gouramis. Do you think Osmocote could still be leaching out at 6 months? There are a lot of balls on the surface.
> 
> I had fun today cleaning the tank and planting a few plants, I feel hopeful now and I'm excited again. With all of your help my tank is really starting to come back from the brink being trashed.


That's good to hear. Sounds like the tank just needed some Lovin! 


Here's a Plant List:










1. Limnophila aromatica
2. Rotala macranda
3. Blyxa japonica
4. Staurogyne repens
5. Rotala indica (true variety)
6. Alternanthera reineckii
7. Syngonanthus belem​
8. Proserpinaca palustris AKA Mermaid Weed
9. Pogosteman helferi AKA Downoi
10. Hemianthus callitrichoids cuba AKA HC
11. Hygrophila pinnatifida
12. Mini pellia (stuffed into holes in the wood, cant really see it now) 
13. Alternanthera reineckii mini
14. Pogostemon erectus
15. Hygrophila corymbosa var. compact AKA Compact corymbosa
16. Bacopa monnieri AKA Moneywort
17. Ludwigia sp red (or rubin)




Liplant said:


> Amazing tanks
> How long do
> You run your lights for ?


Thanks. I run the lights for 8 hours.


----------



## Immortal1

Thanks for the list of plants - very helpful! Now I will have to figure out how to print that out for later use


----------



## BayazGouramiz

Hey Burr do you have any idea on what the cause of this may be...









Everything was going so well, then this starts to happen... Now its happening to almost every one of my Limnophila aromatica. Much more pronounced at the top of the plant.


----------



## burr740

No idea really, though it could be a micro toxicity. How much csmb are you dosing? I can barely dose over .1 ppm w/o pretty drastic side effects. If you are doing the .5 suggested by EI I would try cutting way back on that. Do a big water change to help reduce current level, 70-80%, then none for a few days, and start back at .1 or so.


----------



## BayazGouramiz

burr740 said:


> No idea really, though it could be a micro toxicity. How much csmb are you dosing? I can barely dose over .1 ppm w/o pretty drastic side effects. If you are doing the .5 suggested by EI I would try cutting way back on that. Do a big water change to help reduce current level, 70-80%, then none for a few days, and start back at .1 or so.


K i'll try that, see if it works. thxs man


----------



## d33pVI

BayazGouramiz said:


> Hey Burr do you have any idea on what the cause of this may be...
> 
> View attachment 561905
> 
> 
> Everything was going so well, then this starts to happen... Now its happening to almost every one of my Limnophila aromatica. Much more pronounced at the top of the plant.


Are you talking about the reddish color? They are supposed to be like that. Many plants will have more red in them as they get tall and are closer to the light source.


----------



## BayazGouramiz

d33pVI said:


> Are you talking about the reddish color? They are supposed to be like that. Many plants will have more red in them as they get tall and are closer to the light source.


No, I'm talking about the stress to the leaves. They are dimpled, a lil discolored and over all not looking to hot. Kind of looks like a terrestrial plant in the early stages of wilting to direct sun light.


----------



## burr740

BayazGouramiz said:


> No, I'm talking about the stress to the leaves. They are dimpled, a lil discolored and over all not looking to hot. Kind of looks like a terrestrial plant in the early stages of wilting to direct sun light.


Here's an older pic of some red ludwigia in a grow out tank with induced micro tox. Besides chlorosis, see anything familiar?


----------



## DavidZ

Nice looking scape, as always


----------



## BayazGouramiz

burr740 said:


> Here's an older pic of some red ludwigia in a grow out tank with induced micro tox. Besides chlorosis, see anything familiar?


It kind of does, definitely not spot on, but that that Ludwigia sp. Rubin is one of the main plants that have problems in my tank. For awhile its the best/ easiest plant in the tank, and the next week its the worst. The two lower left leaves are very similar to how my bottom leaves look on that plant when they are not doing well. The lower leaves start to get all discolored and start to fall off. Now that my tank is doing better the Rubin is starting to get that shiny look like yours has in this pic. I will keep an eye out for the super shiny twisted growth. 

I was also wondering if overdosing excel may hurt the Aromatica. I ran out of Excell and have been using API co2 booster at a daily rate for a 100g.


----------



## burr740

BayazGouramiz said:


> It kind of does, definitely not spot on, but that that Ludwigia sp. Rubin is one of the main plants that have problems in my tank. For awhile its the best/ easiest plant in the tank, and the next week its the worst. The two lower left leaves are very similar to how my bottom leaves look on that plant when they are not doing well. The lower leaves start to get all discolored and start to fall off. Now that my tank is doing better the Rubin is starting to get that shiny look like yours has in this pic. I will keep an eye out for the super shiny twisted growth.
> 
> I was also wondering if overdosing excel may hurt the Aromatica. I ran out of Excell and have been using API co2 booster at a daily rate for a 100g.


Dont think Excel harms any of these plants. Ive kept all in the past dosing metricide @2.5x seachem's recommended amount.

The leaf I was talking about is on the tallest stem up near the top. The smaller one headed slightly to the right. It has deformation just like your aromatica.


----------



## BayazGouramiz

burr740 said:


> Hey Bayaz!
> 
> Current dosing, calculated for 65 gallons of actual water:
> 
> *Macros, 3x week*
> KNO3 - 5 ppm
> KH2PO4 - 1.5 ppm
> K2SO4 - 5 ppm
> 
> *Micros 3x week*
> Flourish Comprehensive dosed at .07 ppm Fe (trying this out for a while instead of csmb)
> Fe 11% DTPA at .1 ppm
> 
> 
> If I were you, I would do a couple of back to back 80% water changes to reset the nutrient levels. Then start back with maybe 1/2 EI amounts for macros, and micros dosed at .1 or .2 ppm using Fe as proxy. Watch the plants and go from there.


How do you dose Flourish at .07 ppm FE? ( NVM I see the commercial solutions)

Upon starting up micros at the reduced rate mentioned above I would come up with the amount to be dosed using the zorfox calculator, with the filter being iron? So calculating for a 75 gallon with csm+B filtered by Fe would give me 1/8 of a tsp? and iron would be 1/16 of a tsp  cool im figureing it out i think. 

I cant believe there are so many fertilizers listed.... Makes me wonder if I need some more


----------



## burr740

BayazGouramiz said:


> How do you dose Flourish at .07 ppm FE? ( NVM I see the commercial solutions)
> 
> Upon starting up micros at the reduced rate mentioned above I would come up with the amount to be dosed using the zorfox calculator, with the filter being iron? So calculating for a 75 gallon with csm+B filtered by Fe would give me 1/8 of a tsp? and iron would be 1/16 of a tsp  cool im figureing it out i think.


I calculate for 60 gallons of actual water. Best I can tell my tank actually hold 62-63 gallons (minus the substrate, wood, etc)

.07 from flourish comp is roughly 5 ml, or 1 capful 

.1 csmb is approx 1/16 tsp
.2 approx 1/8 tsp

There are concerns dry dosing csmb at such small amounts. It is made for hydroponics to use in 100s or 1000s of gallons at a time. So the chances of 1/16 tsp containing the right ratios of everything is slim. Much better to make a 500 ml solution at about .1 and go from there. Dose would be 5 ml for .1 ppm, 10 ml for .2 etc.

8 1/16 tsp into 500 Ml for a .1 ppm Fe solution. (calculated for 60 gallons of water)

You can also add the Fe to the mix. But I like to do a separate solutions so I can adjust the levels independently.


----------



## BayazGouramiz

burr740 said:


> I calculate for 60 gallons of actual water. Best I can tell my tank actually hold 62-63 gallons (minus the substrate, wood, etc)
> 
> .07 from flourish comp is roughly 5 ml, or 1 capful
> 
> .1 csmb is approx 1/16 tsp
> .2 approx 1/8 tsp
> 
> There are concerns dry dosing csmb at such small amounts. It is made for hydroponics to use in 100s or 1000s of gallons at a time. So the chances of 1/16 tsp containing the right ratios of everything is slim. Much better to make a 500 ml solution at about .1 and go from there. Dose would be 5 ml for .1 ppm, 10 ml for .2 etc.
> 
> 8 1/16 tsp into 500 Ml for a .1 ppm Fe solution. (calculated for 60 gallons of water)
> 
> You can also add the Fe to the mix. But I like to do a separate solutions so I can adjust the levels independently.


Very noice!!! I'm on it :grin2:


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## monkeyruler90

great tank journal, love all the different scapes you've tried! 
how's it looking in 2016?


----------



## burr740

Thanks monkeyruler.

Rearranged the wood again....shocker right? :red_mouth

As for the plants, many groups are still growing out, filling in, trying to propagate, etc. So it's not trimmed or shaped much right now. I have an idea where it's all heading, still a ways to go. 

Been continuing to play with Micro and Fe dosing. Lots of things arent showing very good color atm. Spent the past couple weeks dosing only Flourish comp at .1, with no additional Fe. Think it's a little iron deficient now. Gonna start back with dtpa this week.

Few quick pics from today:










Think eventually I dont want to have both varieties of AR, other than height it's pretty much the same plant. It's taken a while to get the big version looking right, trying to learn exactly what it needs. may replace that soon if I can find a good contrasting plant for that spot.











Syn. belem has really improved lately and doing well. Those four stems all came from one. Tempted to just buy some more to fill the space up but gonna try to do it from this. 

Downoi patch is all lopsided, will sort that out after it fills in some.










Got this little Erio vietnam in a RAOK from user @StrungOut. (Thanks Mate!) A lot of it melted initially, wasnt sure it was going to make it. but then new growth started coming in pretty fast. It's already splitting which is a very good sign. I want to do a line of it following the piece of wood, going partially behind the Downoi, and then trailing down the slope in front to where the stauro begins. Hopefully it continues to do well.


----------



## BayazGouramiz

Nice man, I cant believe how healthy all your plants are always. Even with moving them around so much they are always so perfect. The HC sure has been on a tear. That suction cup on the side is awesome to btw.


----------



## iscott8

Absolutely beautiful tank!


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## bsantucci

Looking great burr! I was trying to dose only flourish as well and became iron deficient. I've moved to .1 of miller's microplex and another .2 of fe dpta. Hoping that works for me. I don't trust csm+b to be consistent in the dose where's miller's is mixed evenly. 

I started getting some orange out of my surviving Ludwigia Cubas which is a good sign. My mermaid weed though is kinda peach colored. Is that from lack of iron? I see you have it in your tank so figured you'd know better. 

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## philipraposo1982

I thought iron only makes red plants stay red. I didn't think it was to make plants more red in color, am I wrong?

As always, your tank looks super healthy. Keep it up . Your plant selection is really great too.

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## burr740

Bought some more Vietnams from Mr Barr and redid the middle Downoi area.











Gave the AR mini a severe topping











Moved the Hygro compacta over to where the blyxa was. I love blyxa just cant seem to find a place for it in this tank. It's high light color was blending in too much right there. Hygro is a better contrast. Trying a green gecko on the right where the hygro was.











Will give the stems some attn in about a week.



BayazGouramiz said:


> Nice man, I cant believe how healthy all your plants are always. Even with moving them around so much they are always so perfect. The HC sure has been on a tear. That suction cup on the side is awesome to btw.


Heh, lots of these weeds are far from perfect. :red_mouth

As for moving, most of what's in there doesnt mind being moved. Stauro, Downoi, Hygro compact, the majority of stems, can all get yanked and replanted without missing a beat. AR doesnt really like to be moved though, and I try not to mess with the Syn belem...at least until I know it's not going to die on me

The HC has absolutely exploded. It's getting time for a good mow. Trying to decide if I want to do a proper trim or just sell it off and restart it...leaning towards the latter.

In the suction cup is a tiny Erio polaris. It completely melted to begin with, seems to be doing OK now. :fingerscrossed:










Beside the Moneywort is Limnophila belem, had just a couple stems to begin with. Once that fattens up the Moneywort will be gone. Hard to see in the pic but it's starting to get a little purple. From what I understand it can be a tough plant to bring color out of.



iscott8 said:


> Absolutely beautiful tank!


Thank you 



bsantucci said:


> Looking great burr! I was trying to dose only flourish as well and became iron deficient. I've moved to .1 of miller's microplex and another .2 of fe dpta. Hoping that works for me. I don't trust csm+b to be consistent in the dose where's miller's is mixed evenly.
> 
> I started getting some orange out of my surviving Ludwigia Cubas which is a good sign. My mermaid weed though is kinda peach colored. Is that from lack of iron? I see you have it in your tank so figured you'd know better.


Cant say for sure about the mermaid weed. Mine isnt colored very well atm either. It is a fantastic indicator plant though, can change it's color and shape literally overnight. Quick to let you know if it's happy or not.

This is as deep a color as Ive ever gotten out of it, usually stays a milder orangey yellow. Happened after a week of severe nitrate limitation, so more of a stress reaction than anything. You can see the indica on the right is not at all pleased. 











Think Im experiencing what others have when detoxing micros. First few weeks were wonderful, then as the toxicity wears off more will be needed. 

Gonna increase something this next week, not sure what exactly. Considering leaving dtpa at .1 and doubling the comp, or maybe a 50% increase 



philipraposo1982 said:


> I thought iron only makes red plants stay red. I didn't think it was to make plants more red in color, am I wrong?
> 
> As always, your tank looks super healthy. Keep it up . Your plant selection is really great too.


Thanks. A main symptom of low Fe is chlorosis and pale color, it can happen to any plant, red green or whatever.

Im not really up on the chemical intricacies of everthing. I believe you are correct about the staying red thing, but a lack of Fe will certainly turn a plant pale. 


In other news, check out the coloration of this Hygro compacta I have in another tank. Ive seen new leaves start out sorta pink before, but never anything like this.


----------



## bsantucci

burr740 said:


> Cant say for sure about the mermaid weed. Mine isnt colored very well atm either. It is a fantastic indicator plant though, can change it's color and shape literally overnight. Quick to let you know if it's happy or not.
> 
> This is as deep a color as Ive ever gotten out of it, usually stays a milder orangey yellow. Happened after a week of severe nitrate limitation, so more of a stress reaction than anything. You can see the indica on the right is not at all pleased.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Think Im experiencing what others have when detoxing micros. First few weeks were wonderful, then as the toxicity wears off more is gonna be required.
> 
> Gonna increase something this next week, not sure what exactly. Considering leaving dtpa at .1 and doubling the comp


That's wild now seeing a closeup of yours. The leaf structure is completely different than mine. Yours is narrow and spindly and mine is fat with shorter spindles. I'll snap a pic of mine when the lights come on. 

I wonder what the correct structure is. And you're right it is a good indicator plant I've found too. 

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## burr740

bsantucci said:


> That's wild now seeing a closeup of yours. The leaf structure is completely different than mine. Yours is narrow and spindly and mine is fat with shorter spindles. I'll snap a pic of mine when the lights come on.
> 
> I wonder what the correct structure is. And you're right it is a good indicator plant I've found too.


Yeah I'd like to see a close-up of yours. Think there are a couple different varieties, not sure. Params can probably influence it's shape as well.

Mine looked like this when I first bought it, grown emersed











Then under medium light and excel only, it sorta stayed like this.











* not my pics


----------



## bsantucci

I'll still get some pics soon, but I've done some reading this morning and mine is the variety from Cuba. I'm guessing yours is from the US or somewhere else. I got mine from a Tropica 1-2 Grow! cup.

The Cuba variety shows the thicker base leaf like I have, with shorter blades on the edge. Where did you get yours from originally?


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## burr740

It came from a local fish store


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## sprint_9

One thing I noticed in a pic of yours is that your drop checker was down toward the substrate. I have mine right up at the top of the water under the surface a couple inches. I guess I never remember reading or seeing anything about placement of a drop checker and now I am wondering if mine is placed the best it could be.


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## burr740

sprint_9 said:


> One thing I noticed in a pic of yours is that your drop checker was down toward the substrate. I have mine right up at the top of the water under the surface a couple inches. I guess I never remember reading or seeing anything about placement of a drop checker and now I am wondering if mine is placed the best it could be.


Main thing I use a drop checker for is to check different areas to see if good CO2 is getting everywhere. 

Up top in a high flow area will generally have the highest concentration. It's the lower levels where there is less flow that I want to know about. So that's why you'll see it down low in various places.


----------



## sprint_9

Makes sense, Im going to try mine down in a back corner today when I do a water change. Thanks for the help.


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## bsantucci

burr740 said:


> It came from a local fish store





burr740 said:


> It came from a local fish store


Ok got a shot finally. Below is how they look in my tank. 










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## burr740

Big trim today

Before: 

(red bulbs only, color sorta funky)










After:












Mowed the indica down to about an inch, filled in the gaps with a few tops. Did basically the same thing to the L aromatica 





























Moved the Moneywort to the corner to have some green on the end, only 4 stems of it. The limno in front doesnt contrast at all, sorta taking a wait and see approach with that plant to see how it does.











Check out the singed tops on the Mermaid weed. For me this is always the first sign of too much micros or Fe. 

Syn belem aint very happy either, tops are drooping over....sigh 










This week did .15 ppm Comp and .1 dtpa 3x. So basically half EI for Fe. Doesnt sound like too much....but apparently it is.

Next week gonna do something like .1 comp and .05 Fe. Hopefully the Mermaid weed can right itself. In my experience if it gets much worse might as well top it and wait for new shoots to grow because it will never recover.



In other news, kopped a new 50 gallon grow out tank to replace one of my 20s. Same footprint as a standard 55, only 18" high.



























Havent decided yet how Im going to filter it. Currently blasting CO2 through the powerhead, pre-diffused with a chopstick. Flow is awesome and Im sorta digging the mist...for now anyway. On the right side is an Aquaclear 30.

Lighting with my old 2 bulb hydroponic unit, one 6500K and a Truelumen flora, PAR is about 90 at the sub, which is more than I expected but about where I wanna be. Was thinking I'd need another light.


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## quiquik

Hey burr, always impressed with your tanks! Very nice.


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## Immortal1

Have to admit, your before is quite impressive. I am also starting to understand why you trim the way you do. 
"Mowed the indica down to about an inch, filled in the gaps with a few tops. Did basically the same thing to the L aromatica"
Still trying to save my L aromatica and get my indica to look decent.
"This week did .15 ppm Comp and .1 dtpa 3x. So basically half EI for Fe. Doesnt sound like too much....but apparently it is."
Stopped dosing micros in my 20g growout tank for a couple of weeks and noticed FE deficiency in the hygrow - amazed how small adjustments can become apparent, if you know what to look at.
As always, keep us rookies posted on your progress.


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## burr740

Thanks guys^

Sold off the HC last week. :icon_eek:










The brown thing is a piece of aluminum trim coil I use to cut sections, edges, etc

So often you see people start out carpet plants with big ol' clumps. I have better luck doing something like this. Spreads faster and more evenly, and easier to plant really.




















Changed up the middle area a bit. I like the Downoi trailing down, think that's a good look. Not crazy about the patch of HC beside it though. May do the whole area in Downoi, or wait and see how it looks filled in. Something about it just isnt right, maybe the little piece of wood. 

Not sure about the line of Vietnams either. May switch the positions of that and the Downoi. 

Honestly have no idea what Im going to do right there. The long straight branch is supporting two elevations, as well as being a divider. So Im pretty much married to that, short of doing sometghing drastic.

Be glad to hear suggestions. :red_mouth

Here's a full tank pic. New log behind the Vietnam is just sitting there, it's not going to stay that way, been trying out a few different looks.











Middle back area where the Syn belem and Mermaid weed definitely needs some work, will sort that out soon hopefully.


Mini pellia on the stump is finally starting to show. Followed Tom Barr's method of drilling holes to stuff it in. It's been a couple months, didnt have much to begin with. You can see a few empty holes where more will go. Main challenge is keeping the H pinna off of it.











Have a few new species coming next week, a bit more pellia, some L sphaerocarpa, lobelia cardinalis, and a few stems of Rotala sunset that I have no idea what to do with.

In retrospect it probably wasnt the best time to mow down the indica since it's about to be relocated, ah well...


P erectus is starting to pout for some reason, few of the tops seem to be stunting. Micro tox or deficiency? Let's flip a coin...











Shrimp surfing!










That's one of the highest pinnatifida leaves. It sways gently in the current, looked like he was riding a wave up there. Wish I'd had time to take a better pic. 


Moved all the Pristellas to the 50 gal, 19 total, plus 3 Candy Canes. 

Current stock list:

~40 Neons
3 SAE
5-6 Otos
4 Emerald Cories
~12 Cherry shrimp and 4 Amanos


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## MaroMan

Burr, Just read the entire thread, you have learned and taught me a lot! What a difference in the tank from the beginning to the end of the thread, it was extremely entertaining! Your tank is superb! Your thread has made me so excited scape my tank, I am trying to bring my 75 gallon back to life after moving. Love the Syn. Belem. Keep up the good work! I will definitely be following your updates. Have you had any issues keeping the shrimp with the fish? I really want to do the same, but I fully expect them to get eaten! I'm all for live feeding but not at that expense. 

Cheers!


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## PortalMasteryRy

Awesome tank!

You need to put some buce in there and maybe give the ranunculus inundatus plant a try too =)

Have you had good success with the Sygonanthus? I've tried two different species of Syn but both of which just melted. At one point it was growing then it stopped and started melting from the top to the bottom. 

I have the remaining plants in my 20G long grow tank and I'm trying to figure out how to grow it properly. I remember growing it like a weed in my 5 gallon.


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## burr740

MaroMan said:


> Burr, Just read the entire thread, you have learned and taught me a lot! What a difference in the tank from the beginning to the end of the thread, it was extremely entertaining! Your tank is superb! Your thread has made me so excited scape my tank, I am trying to bring my 75 gallon back to life after moving. Love the Syn. Belem. Keep up the good work! I will definitely be following your updates. Have you had any issues keeping the shrimp with the fish? I really want to do the same, but I fully expect them to get eaten! I'm all for live feeding but not at that expense.
> 
> Cheers!


Thanks a lot man.  Definitely been a learning experience for me as well....and still is

No issues with fish bothering shrimp, but there's only small tetras in here so...




PortalMasteryRy said:


> Awesome tank!
> 
> You need to put some buce in there and maybe give the ranunculus inundatus plant a try too =)
> 
> Have you had good success with the Sygonanthus? I've tried two different species of Syn but both of which just melted. At one point it was growing then it stopped and started melting from the top to the bottom.
> 
> I have the remaining plants in my 20G long grow tank and I'm trying to figure out how to grow it properly. I remember growing it like a weed in my 5 gallon.


 That ranunculus is intriguing. The idea of Buces in this tank scares me, afraid its too much light and they'll get algae. Gonna try a few in another tank pretty soon though. Sure then I'll toss one in here to see how it does.

Been trying the Syn for a few months now. It grows very well...for about 2 weeks. At which point usually I nearly kill it again with too much Fe/micros. It's one of those plants that for me is uber sensitive, along with the red ludwigia and mermaid weed. Cant seem to find the sweet spot between too much and not enough. 

That's why Im having you test the Mn in both my tap and tank, along with the other stuff. There's a correlation between that and Fe (which I dont fully understand) so hoping to gain a little more insight.

My water report for both Fe and Mn says "< .5 ppm" - which for our purposes could mean anything.

Some will scoff at this being the problem but there's no doubt in my mind. The response both ways is too dramatic, and happens too fast for it to be anything else.

The past two weeks is a perfect example. I was going to talk about this anyway, but I'd planned to wait a couple more days to have better examples of the drastic improvement that happens every time.


Last week will recall a couple scorched tips on the mermaid weed after an increase in Comp. 

On Sat, 6 days ago, did an 80% water change. Normally at this point I'd hold back on micros/Fe and the affected plants would improve.

But this time, in preparation for you to test my water, I decided to double up. For one thing just to rule out deficiency.....once again (stupid!)

It wasnt pretty. These pics are from Wed, 24 hours after the 2nd dose of .15 ppm Comp and .1 dtpa.











Hard to see in the pic so I drew a line. Notice that one top bent over almost 90 degrees. Also notice the burnt (melting) top on the little one. This had already started to a small degree last week.

Also notice the mermaid weed tips, knotted up in little balls.

That was Wed evening. Thurs morning did another 80% water change, with no traces added since. Pic below is just now, at the end of photo period, 2 light cycles after the last water change.

Bent Syn tip is almost straight again. Mermaid tops are starting to relax, Im surprised to see that happening tbh. Figured those were goners.












Red ludwigia on Wed, tops severely deformed (these were fine before Sat)










Now today, they are almost flat again except for a couple spots that were affected the most.











Like I said, planned to wait a few more days to better show the improvements....but since you brought it up 


In other news, got all the new plants in - Lud sphaerocarpa, Lobelia cardinalis, and Rotala sunset. For now just stuck them in wherever there was room. Gonna let it all grow out for a couple of weeks while I decide how to arrange everything.





































^^ Talked about the P erectus not being happy last week. The unhappy stems are making side shoots, about an inch below the top, 2 or 3 in some cases. It's like they abandoned the main one and decided to start over.


Rotala mac looked a bit sad on Wed, seems happy now. This isnt "water change pearling" btw, this is just now, two days later


----------



## PortalMasteryRy

Hmmm...the curled tips could be chlorine. I remember seeing the effect on my pantanal after doing a 75% water change. I dosed my 30G grow tank with 2x the recommended amount of Seachem prime but the tips of the L. pantanal plants near the top curled and almost died. The plant recovered tough but the old growth was ugly. I still have it in my tank as I was observing what the plant was going to do and top looks like it is still growing. Look for an image of chlorine effect on plants. 

Buce in high light with proper growing conditions won't get algae. 

You AR looks goods and I've seen the same coloring with the L. rubin in my tanks. I have 2-3 specimens of the AR you gave me and I have it growing pretty much the same as yours. It actually started to show curling on the leaf margins again along with the leaves of my Persicaria Sao Paulo which I suspect is a reaction to too much Magnesium. I've been dosing to Mg to get to 20 ppm. 

I don't know how you are getting a bad response with .1 ppm Fe. I dose my grow tanks and even my main tank with .2 to .4 DTPA Fe as a one time dose after a water change. I'm currently running at 1.28 ppm Fe and I ran 1.35 ppm Fe a few weeks ago. I'm actually dosing .15 ppm Fe (daily dosing) from Seachem Iron on top of the 1.28 ppm Fe from DTPA. I was trying to figure out what was making the hyptis lorentziana plant get the purple leaf so I was bumping my Fe. 

Your Rotala Mac looks better than mine. I cannot get rid of the curled down leaf edges or the dark red coloring. It could be the iron too. 

I'm waiting for dinner to be over and I have your water. I should have the result of the water test by tonight or tomorrow morning.


----------



## burr740

Awesome, very interested to see exactly what's in the tap.

Counting the Fe from Flourish comp, the dose was .25 ppm - .15 from comp and .1 dtpa. Did that twice since Sat, mac/mic/mac/mic

Re chlorine and curled leaves, That's good to know, but the symptoms appeared a couple days after the water change, after the double doses of micros/Fe. Then improved again virtually overnight after another water change. So the timeline really isnt right for that to be it. Plus things always look better for me after a water change. Always.


----------



## burr740

Here are the results of PortalMaster's tests. Might be getting somewhere now...

(far right is Mn)










(Mn is in ppb (ug/L) so that is 0.018 ppm)









*Tap water observations:*

Ca and Mg is right in line with what my water report says. 

Zero Mn or Fe - There goes my theory that the tap may contain a significant amount of one or both, therefore causing my issue with micro dosing.


*Tank water observations:*

The glaring issue is .02 ppm Fe. What?? I'd just dosed .25 ppm about 20 hours before taking the sample, plus .1 from csmb, and another .25 + .1 two days before that. 

Something is causing it to precipitate. I always dose P on separate days from micros, so unless it is the overall level of P (maybe?) otherwise that's not it.

PortalMaster mentioned a UV sterilizer, said he's seen it take .4 ppm dtpa out in 24 hours. I do run a UV, 24/7. It's the 9 watt built into the SunSun filter. I never thought much about it, or figured it was all that powerful in the first place. But maybe it is?

So the first thing Im gonna do is turn the UV off. Then get P down to 1 or 2 ppm instead of 6 for the long haul.

--------------------------

The obvious question now is why is there always such a terrible response from micros if Fe deficiency is the problem?

From my limited understanding, Mn plays a vital role, there is a strong correlation between that and Fe. A shortage of one makes the other one toxic, and vice versa. Think Soleicio posted this somewhere if you want the general idea - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC438057/?page=7

Frankly, that is way more information than I care to try and process. I have zero desire to get that deep into the chemical aspect of things. All I want to know is how much of what to dump in there so I can get on with the fun stuff like pruning and scaping.

But anyway, if the tank has been virtually without Fe this whole time, that may explain why there is such a dramatic response whenever I try to dose a "normal" level of micros.


The first thing I did last night, after killing the UV, was dose .18 ppm dtpa, nothing else. (tank is on it's 4th day with no micros)

Plants were continuing to improve since the last water change and no micros, and the big dose of Fe seemed to agree with everything. I realize it's only one day later, but I often see a significant turn overnight when dealing with micros. Usually can tell right away if it was a good thing or not.



Here's some pics from just a few minutes ago, at the end of today's photo period. Syn continues to look better, and check out the growth on the far right mermaid weed stem, compare to a couple days ago 











Ludwigia has taken on some color. Top two stems still look bad, they took the biggest hit from last weeks micro dosing. Those leaves will probably never get right. The other stems continue to look better











I'll be positively ecstatic if the problem turns out to be Fe precipitation. I mean...there HAS to be a reason Ive been unable to dose even 1/3 EI trace levels, when so many others are doing fine with it.


Also...it should go without saying that any thoughts, suggestions or ideas will be greatly appreciated. Because Im basically just winging it here.


----------



## burr740

In other news, 

Been wanting to do some tall grassy plants in the very front corners. On the right side added some Sagitaria subulata, and on the left side a couple baby Cypress helferi, and some sort of Crinum. Maybe some of that will turn out like I have in mind.

Will be in grow out mode for a week or two, Im sure the tank could use some stability right about now....to say the least


----------



## Immortal1

As always, tank is looking impressive!


----------



## PortalMasteryRy

I tested your water for copper and sulfate. Copper levels are at 18 ppb or 0.018 ppm and sulfate (S04) is at 90 ppm. I'm not too worried about the sulfate. My levels are still out of range (Max 100 ppm). I seem to be missing one of the reagent boxes for my Zinc test but I'll keep you posted.


----------



## burr740

Thanks I really appreciate it. That seems kinda high for both. Water report shows about 9 ppm SO4. 

Couple days ago did a good 70% WC. That should've taken P levels down from 6 to 2. This week Im only dosing N and K, will start back next week with reduced P, aiming for a global 1.5-2 ppm.

For micros, now adding .15 Comp and .125 dtpa. It's been 2 doses. Early indications are positive, although nothing dramatic. Hopefully that's a good sign because usually when the micros are not agreeing, there is rapid decline after just a couple days. Barring a severe downturn gonna stick with that dose for a while and see what happens. Plants probably need some time to adjust.

Chronic Fe deficiency still being the running hypothesis. Will update with new pics here in a few days.


----------



## PortalMasteryRy

I get high sulfates because I've been dosing MgS04 and K2S04 and even CaS04 when I was playing around with the nutrient levels. I think my tap gets 20-30 ppm. Let me test your tap VS my tap. 

For Cu, my grow tanks run from 30 to 50 ppb so 18 ppb is a good range. I actually have almost the same levels on my 40B. I don't think you can eliminate Cu because it can come from the tap. 

What is your target P04 levels? I'm planning on keeping mine at 1.5 ppm and dropping N03 first to 10 then we'll see what happens.


----------



## burr740

Planning to stay in the 1.5-2 ppm range for P. It's been 5+ for several months. Will keep N and K about the same. Gonna be interesting to see if the tank uses more once this micro thing is sorted.

Shrimp and snails seem fine so I guess the Cu is OK


----------



## burr740

burr740 said:


> For micros, now adding .15 Comp and .125 dtpa. It's been 2 doses. Early indications are positive, although nothing dramatic. Hopefully that's a good sign because usually when the micros are not agreeing, there is rapid decline after just a couple days. Barring a severe downturn gonna stick with that dose for a while and see what happens. Plants probably need some time to adjust.


This didnt seem to be agreeing after a couple doses. Saw early signs of unhappiness the day after the second dose, slight droop in the Ludwigia, and overall less pearling everywhere (another signal that everything isnt kosher)

Did another 70% WC, and started back with only .06 ppm dtpa, no traces. Things perked right back up and have stayed that way for 3 days since. Will reintroduce traces in another few days, maybe after the next WC, something like .07 Comp.....then see what the plants tell me.


Syn belem has probably grown an inch over the past week.

2/07











2/14




















^ The one Mermaid weed stem is recovering nicely. Notice the growth pattern compared to where it was 9 days ago. It's the little one bottom right - 










The other four stems are toast. These are the ones whose leaves completely knotted up in little balls.

Dropped their lower leaves and stems turning black, melting from the bottom up. Replanted the top couple inches in the 50 gal, may get something out of them eventually.




















Ludwigia continues to pull through. Top left stem is one of the worst affected last week. You can see the top few leaves look nice, that is new growth from this week. Few leaves just below are still damaged.











Topped some of the R mac because it was nearing the surface, stuck it behind the AR, 3-4 days ago. For some reason it's turned a deep red back there, the ones in front continue to be lighter colored.











Also if anyone has noticed, the L aromatica has been virtually without color lately. The above pic was a couple days ago. Last couple days dosing only the Fe, it's starting to get it's pink back. You can see it in the FTS above, from today.


----------



## burr740

Did a little rearranging/thinning/pruning. Scape is a haphazard mess right now, will be moving positions of several things in a couple weeks, probably remove a couple species.


These are very quick pics, apologize for the crappiness











This week dosed .07 Comp and .05 dtpa, seems agreeable so far. 


Red ludwigia looking good. Topped 3 or 4 of the taller stems and moved them to the 50. Letting some of these side shoots grow out.












There's only 4 main stems of P erectus, everything else is side shoots from stems that were never topped to begin with.....crazy. 











Syn belem continues it's growth spurt. Cut all the branches and planted them separately. Acquired 2 more small ones from user @StrungOut , damn that boy hates to part with his Syngo! :red_mouth 

Hopefully have a long thick row in another month or two. Also topped and replanted the little mermaid stem, it's plugging right along. 











Added a couple Erio mato grosso and some Hygrophiila araguaia. Gonna see how those grow and decide what to do with them. Think the erios are destined for the front right corner, then move the Lobelia up, running behind the AR mini











So nothing major, mainly just wanted to give an update on the micro dosing. Thanks for looking.


----------



## jcdelarohe

I have read your posts and what stands out to me , aside from a beautiful tank and aquascaping skills; is the fact of your lean dosing on micros. I have experienced the same dosing miller microplex, csm+b but not flourish traces. I am almost convinced edta reacts with my setup or water. I use ro water, have used city water (soft here in Naples, Fl). Could you please share your water parameters, trying to find commonalities.
Yesterday I did a water change added 0.13ppm of miller microplex (of edta iron) and this AM leaves are not happy, drooping. Any thoughts? Thanks again for sharing !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## burr740

jcdelarohe said:


> I have read your posts and what stands out to me , aside from a beautiful tank and aquascaping skills; is the fact of your lean dosing on micros. I have experienced the same dosing miller microplex, csm+b but not flourish traces. I am almost convinced edta reacts with my setup or water. I use ro water, have used city water (soft here in Naples, Fl). Could you please share your water parameters, trying to find commonalities.
> Yesterday I did a water change added 0.13ppm of miller microplex (of edta iron) and this AM leaves are not happy, drooping. Any thoughts? Thanks again for sharing !


Thanks. 

I use all tap, which has 50 ppm Ca and around 5 ppm Mg. Then I add around 10 ppm Mg via Epsom salt at water changes. KH in the 5-6 range.

Still trying to find the elusive sweet spot for micros and Fe. Switched back to csmb about 10 days ago. After a few weeks of using Flourish Comp, several obvious toxicity symptoms were gone, but things still werent doing exactly right, bit of chlorosis on some things, minor bba here and there. My other tanks seemed to be doing better with csmb so I switched back.

Comp contains a lot of Fe relative to other traces. Here's the breakdown of both dosed for .07ppm Fe (Thanks to @Zorfox 's calculator)



> CSM-B dosed for .07 ppm Fe
> 
> B 0.008575804
> Cu 0.000964778
> dGH 0.01253792
> Fe 0.07
> Mg 0.015007657
> Mn 0.020045942
> Mo 0.000535988
> Zn 0.003966309
> 
> Flourish Comp Dosed for .07 ppm Fe
> 
> B 0.001981275
> Ca 0.030819833
> Cl 0.253162917
> Co 0.000088057
> Cu 0.000022014
> Fe 0.070445333
> K 0.067583492
> K2O 0.081452417
> Mg 0.024215583
> Mn 0.002597672
> Mo 0.000198128
> N 0.015409917
> Na 0.028618417
> NO3 0.067803633
> P 0.000968623
> P2O5 0.002201417
> PO4 0.002861842
> S 0.061045284
> Zn 0.000154099


Currently dosing .07 csmb and .05 Fe dtpa 11%, 3x week. Things are looking pretty good, think it may need some more Fe. Still baffled by the result from PMs test a couple pages back. Why so little Fe present less that 24 hours after a dose of dtpa? UV, high P, something else....idk.

Ordered some Fe gluconate I will begin adding to the mix. Not sure how that'll be any different than what's in Comp, but at least I'll have all three types of chelations going. That's what Barr and some other gurus Ive seen do. We shall see...

Ludwigia looking pretty good











Speaking of Ludwigia, user @Saxa Tilly recently pointed out that what I have is sp rubin, not sp red. All this time Ive been wondering why mine looked so big compared to others, now I know why loll. Also he was kind enough to send me some nice trimmings to try out, plus some fabulous looking Erio breviscapum. Thanks again man, too generous! 

So I'll be adding some different species in the next few days and rearranging things, good trim, shape up groups, etc 

Been letting it run amok since the last update. Syn belem is growing like wildfire, up to 12 stems now, been sticking them around wherever there's a space. Only thing it is kinda spindly looking, not fat and healthy all the way down like some Ive seen. Still very proud of the way it's turned around though.









Two weeks ago












Mowed down the stauro couple days ago. It'll quickly bounce back, more compact than before





























Thanks for looking.


----------



## Christophe

burr740 said:


> Still trying to find the elusive sweet spot for micros and Fe. Switched back to csmb about 10 days ago. After a few weeks of using Flourish Comp, several obvious toxicity symptoms were gone, but things still werent doing exactly right, bit of chlorosis on some things, minor bba here and there. My other tanks seemed to be doing better with csmb so I switched back.
> 
> Comp contains a lot of Fe relative to other traces. Here's the breakdown of both dosed for .07ppm Fe (Thanks to @Zorfox 's calculator)


I've also recently switched back to CSM+B after using Flourish Comp for several months. Some things in my tank were just not looking right. I noticed that Flourish Comp seems Mn-poor compared to CSM+B. I wonder if that's the missing link in what I've been seeing, some bad twisting in new AR leaves, a bit of tip stunting in L. Glandulosa, Blyxa continually shedding leaves. Everything else seems pretty much problem-free.

I'm doing a blend of CSM+B, Fe-DPTA, and Fe-Gluconate. With moderately hard water, I'm dosing the iron/micros later in the day, after CO2 has dropped the pH to get the most out of the gluconate.

My tap water is similar to yours, Ca 49ppm, Mg 5.5ppm, KH 100ppm, so I look to you as a good comparative benchmark.



jcdelarohe said:


> Yesterday I did a water change added 0.13ppm of miller microplex (of edta iron) and this AM leaves are not happy, drooping. Any thoughts? Thanks again for sharing !


That dose of Miller microplex brings with it a LOT of copper. Actually a LOT of everything other than the iron. I'd use it REALLY sparingly, and add iron separately, from another source.


----------



## PortalMasteryRy

@Burr: Does your AR show curly leaf margins? I am growing 2-3 plants from the original AR that you gave me and I can't seem to get rid of the curly leaf margins. It's funny I have another AR (mini) and it does not seem to show the same symptoms. I was wondering if it is just your plants that does it. Maybe my Ca is too low since I no longer dose it after the water change.


----------



## burr740

PortalMasteryRy said:


> @Burr: Does your AR show curly leaf margins? I am growing 2-3 plants from the original AR that you gave me and I can't seem to get rid of the curly leaf margins. It's funny I have another AR (mini) and it does not seem to show the same symptoms. I was wondering if it is just your plants that does it. Maybe my Ca is too low since I no longer dose it after the water change.


I can grow the mini flat as a pancake, the regular version is much more stubborn. Had the plant probably a year and a half. There have been brief intervals where the leaves completely flatten out, but for the most part the edges stay curly. I can get them to do pretty good, algae free, etc...but growth is never exactly right.

They smoothed out a lot when I started adding Mg at water changes (recall my tap is heavy on Ca and light on Mg). Also if I overdo the micros they curl worse. Root tabs help. It always does better with a bit of O+ underneath.

Another thing Ive noticed, only when it's happy does it grow vertically. If not entirely happy, it just sits there putting out side shoots.

Im probably going to phase it out entirely pretty soon because it never grows the way I want it to. Takes up too much space with little reward.


----------



## burr740

In other news, the ballast crapped out on the old 2 bulb unit I was using on the 50 gal. 

Kopped one of these bad boys - https://www.htgsupply.com/Product-GrowBright-4-Foot-2-Lamp-High-Output-T5-With-Choice-of-Bulbs#

Great light so far


----------



## burr740

Trimmed a few things, still have random stems stuck various places. Probably grow things out a couple more weeks then arrange groups.











Scalped the pinna. May do some fine leaved stems behind it and keep the pinna lower. I believe it would add some depth and also make the wood stand out better. 

The holes you see in the wood are for more pellia. There's one more under the top shrimp











Rubin is looking nice. 










Micros this past week has been .05 csmb, .05 dtpa, and so far two doses of .1 Flourish iron (gluconate). Saw an immediate positive reaction to the gluconate. Reds yellows and greens all got deeper.

For whatever reason, seems like my tank never really "gets" the dtpa.

This lone Mermaid top is turning into one of the best specimens Ive ever had. 










The bottom is still up there by the log, two little shoots starting to emerge. Also have 4-5 nubs sprouting in the 50. Should be able to do a nice group of 6 or so in a couple of weeks.


Sphaerocarpa stem acting a fool! Moved it up here because it was shading the others. Apparently it doesnt like being under the center brace. 










Not sure if this crinkled growth is normal or not. I think so?











Couple test stems of the new sp red. Have 10-12 more looking fabulous in the 50. Cant wait to do a big row of this somewhere. Thanks again Sax!











Hygro compacta is absolutely stellar. Not a spec of algae or a single pinhole anywhere.











Trying out an ATI purple. It's a lot bluer than I expected, really like the overall look though. To balance it out I replaced one of the Trulumen floras with a 3000K.

Font to back:

3000K Plantmax
6500K Zoomed Ultra
ATI purple
Trulumen Flora


----------



## Immortal1

Very impressed with how your tank is looking! Compaired to my various examples, your colors sure do seem to pop. Been working on adjusting my fert routine - can only hope to get my plants that happy.


----------



## burr740

Immortal1 said:


> Very impressed with how your tank is looking! Compaired to my various examples, your colors sure do seem to pop. Been working on adjusting my fert routine - can only hope to get my plants that happy.


Thanks for the kind words. 

Healthy plants aside, getting colors to pop is all about the light, heavy reds and blues. The neons and cherry shrimp literally glow in person. Things would look totally different under all 6500K


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## Immortal1

Agree 100% on the lighting! Have a Satellite Planted+ towards the tank and a Satellite Planted+ Pro over the front. Was surprised how much different the tank looks with the various color settings. Still working out some variables though (intensity vs run time). Pretty happy with algae level (or lack of) at the moment. From what I can see, you seem to have a pretty good handle on lighting vs algae.
"This lone Mermaid top is turning into one of the best specimens Ive ever had". It does look nice. Currently nursing a lone Mermaid Weed and L. Aromatica back to health - someday will be able to show them off again ;-)


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## jovonhaln

Really beautifull tank! Far above my head on the fertilizers, testing and so on but....really great work, watching the change as I've read your journal seeing how miniscule parameter changes have effect...both positive and negative.
The colors! Again wonderful tank.


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## Maxine023

Beautiful tank! I love how the plants pop against the dark background and substrate!


----------



## burr740

Thanks! ^


Did a little trim, grouped things together better. This is by no means the final arrangement, still in grow out mode, fattening up a few things, and also getting a feel for what might look good where, and next to what.


Here's a few quick pics












Mayaca fluviatilis courtesy of @Saxa Tilly . This plant is insane, pearls so hard it looks white! This is on a regular day, not after a water change etc...











Mermaid weed continues to look nice. Lights about to go off so it's closed up a lil











Micros this week .05 csmb, .05 dtpa, .05 gluc. Seems pretty close to the sweet spot. 


Pogo definitely wont be wrapped around like this. Thinking of putting the Rotala sunset where the rubin is, then a bigger section of sp red on the left where the sunset is now. Big AR will probably go, too many reds in here now.










Gonna reduce the HC's footprint a little, change out the long straight piece of wood for something with a twist. Have the HC wide at the bottom then becoming narrower, winding its way up to the stump...rather than just a big triangle like it is now.


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## Saxa Tilly

Looking good! Wish I could grow Sunset like you.


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## burr740

Saxa Tilly said:


> Looking good! Wish I could grow Sunset like you.


It's a mystery to me why not because you can grow everything else! Im really surprised how easy it's been considering it's reputation. Guess it just likes my water or something.


Been 3 weeks since I razed the staurogyne.

Before










After










Basically just pinched it off down to the sub...most of it. Did not uproot anything.

3 weeks later, nice tight growth w/no algae











Topped the indica 2 months ago, left the stumps....fairly slow rebound. 

1/22











Now 

The taller stems are from a few tops that were re-planted in some open spaces. Next level down is stump growth


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## burr740

Few randoms, lights had been off a couple hours so plants are closed up

Can you spot the fish?












































^ shells look kinda rough. Wonder what's up w/that?


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## touch of sky

You can just see his tail sticking up in the first picture  How many SAE's do you have in the tank? Lovely pictures, BTW, your tank is beautiful, as always!


----------



## klibs

lol @ how hard that mayaca pearls


----------



## burr740

Anyone interested in Dutch styles should check out Saxa Tilly's 180 gal journal on Barr Report. His tank is amazing and it's chock full of great information. 

Well worth the read Going Dutch with Aquasoil



touch of sky said:


> You can just see his tail sticking up in the first picture  How many SAE's do you have in the tank? Lovely pictures, BTW, your tank is beautiful, as always!


Thanks!

3 SAE
6-7 Otos
3 Emerald green cories
30 something Neons


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## Qwedfg

Excellent tank. I really love this dutch style. My next tank will use this and Tom Barrs tank as inspiration!


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## II Knucklez II

Awesome tank hope I can do a Dutch style tank some day

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S7 using Tapatalk


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## cininohio

Your tank i gorgeous. Being a gardener, I love the garden look. I told me husband that you moved plants around alot and he said, "imagine that." haha. He is always looking at my tanks and says, weren't those plants over there the last time?


----------



## BoxxerBoyDrew

SIMPLY BEAUTIFUL TANK Burr!!!!

You have really got the light vs. Co2 vs. Ferts down to a Science!!!! Your tank looks to be algae free!!! The Colors and Textures/Leaf Shape of your plants is truly AWESOME!!! You 4SURE have an Aquatic Green Thumb! I hope and Pray I will be able to get my skills to your level!

I am SUBSCRIBED! I just read threw the whole thread, and I am excited to see how the tank fills in now that you have gotten things more figured out with your micros! I learned quite a bit from this thread, so THANK YOU VERY MUCH for documenting everything in such detail and with pics, so it makes it easier for every one to understand just what each deficiency or excess was doing!!! 

My 55g has Black Diamond in it as well, but it is Dirted with Miracle Grow Organic Potting Soil, so I can't easily move around plants! But I really LOVE the Black Diamond for planting in though!!! It is easy to work in and with, and cheap too!I am working on setting up a 40B, but I decided to go with Petco's Black "sand" as I will not be Dirting it, and will be using root tabs, so I figured the Petco sand has a bit bigger grain size so hopefully the Trumpet Snails can get a bit deeper in it to help keep it stirred up a bit easier. It's also a bit more grey in color.

Anyway, keep up the AWESOME WORK and THANK YOU AGAIN for the GREAT REPORTING on the micro effects!!!
Take Care,
Drew


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## burr740

Qwedfg said:


> Excellent tank. I really love this dutch style. My next tank will use this and Tom Barrs tank as inspiration!


That is quite a compliment. Barr's tanks have certainly been a big inspiration to me. First time I saw that 120 it was like...Now THAT is what I want someday! That right there!



II Knucklez II said:


> Awesome tank hope I can do a Dutch style tank some day


Thanks Knucklez 



cininohio said:


> Your tank i gorgeous. Being a gardener, I love the garden look. I told me husband that you moved plants around alot and he said, "imagine that." haha. He is always looking at my tanks and says, weren't those plants over there the last time?


Haha, at least he's paying attention! My girlfriend thinks Ive lost my mind sometimes. I'll stare at the tank for an hour, then move something....2 inches. :rollseyes: :shakeshead:



BoxxerBoyDrew said:


> SIMPLY BEAUTIFUL TANK Burr!!!!
> 
> You have really got the light vs. Co2 vs. Ferts down to a Science!!!! Your tank looks to be algae free!!! The Colors and Textures/Leaf Shape of your plants is truly AWESOME!!! You 4SURE have an Aquatic Green Thumb! I hope and Pray I will be able to get my skills to your level!
> 
> I am SUBSCRIBED! I just read threw the whole thread, and I am excited to see how the tank fills in now that you have gotten things more figured out with your micros! I learned quite a bit from this thread, so THANK YOU VERY MUCH for documenting everything in such detail and with pics, so it makes it easier for every one to understand just what each deficiency or excess was doing!!!
> 
> My 55g has Black Diamond in it as well, but it is Dirted with Miracle Grow Organic Potting Soil, so I can't easily move around plants! But I really LOVE the Black Diamond for planting in though!!! It is easy to work in and with, and cheap too!I am working on setting up a 40B, but I decided to go with Petco's Black "sand" as I will not be Dirting it, and will be using root tabs, so I figured the Petco sand has a bit bigger grain size so hopefully the Trumpet Snails can get a bit deeper in it to help keep it stirred up a bit easier. It's also a bit more grey in color.
> 
> Anyway, keep up the AWESOME WORK and THANK YOU AGAIN for the GREAT REPORTING on the micro effects!!!
> Take Care,
> Drew


Thanks for the kind words. It is a never ending process, the learning experience. One that tries my patience on a regular basis!

Regarding algae, frequent water changes and uber clean conditions goes a long long way. 

Good luck with the new 40B.


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## burr740

Couple months ago I noticed that the SAEs were eating the bonsai. wasnt much at first, a few leaves here and there. But it soon got worse











So they had to go, the problem was going to be catching them :icon_eek:


Made a trap using a 1.8 liter Juicy juice bottle. Cut the top off and turned it around backwards.











Put some food inside and a couple lava rocks to weigh it down....had 2 in 30 minutes!











Caught half of everything else too. Was able to pour most back in and used my hand to scoop out the SAEs. Re-did the trap and it took about an hour to get the last one.


In other news: 

Im trying to improve CO2 and the overall flow in the tank. 

The little Sera 500 has been a workhorse but it simply cant handle such a large amount of CO2. Always had a good bit of mist coming out, which never really bothered me except for the fact that it takes twice as much gas than it should to reach a target.

But the biggest issue is it has 1/2" connections and the SunSun canister uses 3/4 (or whatever the metric sizes are). This whole time been using 1/2" on the canister outflow, heated it w/boiling water to make it fit originally.

Finally got around to building a griggs. It's 22'' tall, cut on the straight pipe is 16" You can see how small the Sera is in comparison










....it didnt work. Tons of mist coming out. Maybe the CO2 needs to go in higher?

I measured the flow before disassembling the Sera, pumped right at 2 gallons in a minute, or 120 gph. Always knew it wasnt much but that's a lot lower than I thought.

With the new reactor hooked up it ran a solid 4 gallons in a minute, 240 gph. So that's great....now if only it worked.

Well I built another one, 6" longer, 28" overall. It does a lot better but there's still some mist coming out.

Gonna have to come up with something better. Next thing gonna try adding a cut off valve to the exit end. Logic being that closing it just a little will increase the pressure inside the reactor, and thereby dissolve CO2 better. We shall see....

May have to do the whole bypass thing. I'd love to hear insight from anyone on a good design


Shrimps are loving the new flow, seeing twice as many out and about now. This gal's on top of the world!


----------



## BoxxerBoyDrew

You might try a cerges style reactor!

That's what I had on my 55g when it was hitech and it worked very well! I only had it running on a Fluval 204 mind you, but I never had any mist output, and it did a great job of dissolving Co2! I made it from an old r/o prefilter canister, and it only had 3/8" input/output female npt threads in the top! So if you were to get one with 1/2" or 3/4" threads you should be able to keep your flow unrestrained and dissolve all of your Co2! I believe I saw some 20" tall canisters at reefsupply.com IIRC that had large inputs that would work. I bought a used griggs from someone here on the s-n-'s, and while it had a bit better flow than my cerges, the Co2 usage was actually more with no more plant mass or surface agitation! I couldn't figure out why, but it wasn't to long after I added the griggs that I got a bad, bad, bad cladifloria (sp?) algae outbreak, and took the tank from hitech to lowtech and removed the Co2 system all together, so I never really researched it! The only thing I MIGHT worry about if adding a valve would be if it would allow Co2 to make a bubble/build up inside the reactor like it does in a cerges if the Co2 bubble count is to high vs. the water flow.?. Maybe?? Heck it might be worth a try! 


Man I hate that your SAEs were eating your Bonsai and you had to remove them!!! My Rummynose eat certain crypt leaves when they first sprout the same way, and it is the expensive ones too!!!   But I didn't realize it was them till just a few weeks ago, and the tank is coming down either for good or to be cleaned and sanitized to kill the clad. algae that I can only control by staying low tech, and I am tired of not being able to add anything new! Anyway that is the first I have heard of SAEs eating healthy plants like that! How did you figure out it was them? I finally set up a digital camcorder on a tripod pointed directly at a baby crypt Green Gecko that I found hiding in the middle of a group of Sword leaves, and the next morning when the lights came on they were on it within 30 minutes, but when I sat near the tank they would leave them alone! Tricky little rascals!!!! Are you planning to replace the SAEs with another algae eater?


Your Shrimp looks very happy up there!!! I can't wait to set up a shrimp tank!!! I haven't had any shrimp other than Bamboo a LONG time ago, and they wouldn't last more than a few days to a few weeks in my tank, so I stopped trying! Big box store animals is what I chalked it up too, as the LFS were not getting at the time! I always had them in my Salt tanks and they were one of my favorite thing to sit and watch! They are always doing something interesting!

Well I hope you get your reactor figured out so your tank stays looking soo good!!! 

Take Care!
Drew


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## Jamo33

This tank is the poster boy for "hard work pays off"
I love it! So vibrant and beautiful!


----------



## burr740

Thanks Jamo

BBD - No immediate plans for algae eaters. Wouldnt mind having a small cool pleco of some sort, but they sure do crap a lot...maybe someday

Went with a griggs instead of cerges for no particular reason. The latest version is OK, less mist than the Sera with more flow. It's just not perfect yet, small tweak or two is all it needs I believe.


There's a new wrench in the machine though....the SunSun is leaking! 

Small trickle coming from the main gasket. Fortunately it sits in a plastic storage container so it not a catastrophe. It also got louder when the flow opened up, slight rattle coming from the prop. Not even gonna try to fix it.

Kopped a Hydor Pro supposed to be here tomorrow 

Went with the 600 model - Amazon.com : Hydor Professional 600 External Canister Filter, 90-150 gal, 345 GPH : Aquarium Filters : Pet Supplies


Pretty excited about that. Hope to be able to use the SunSun's intake tube with the built in skimmer. Always liked that, and with the additional flow it works even better. 

Same size hoses I think, seems like it should work on another filter.....maybe


----------



## sohankpatel

Hmm, I haven't had issues with SAE eating my plants, they nibble on moss a bit, but that is all. NEVER GET FLAGFISH as algae eaters, they tear up my DHG carpet, and eat fine-leaved plants. Damn things are voracious, and I feed the tank heavily.


----------



## Immortal1

burr740 said:


> Couple months ago I noticed that the SAEs were eating the bonsai. wasnt much at first, a few leaves here and there. But it soon got worse
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So they had to go, the problem was going to be catching them :icon_eek:


So, THATS who's been eating the leaves on my rotela true. Thought they were just falling off due to poor fert mix but could never actually find full leaves. 

Pretty good idea on catching the SAE's Tried the tried and true 2 net method but they are just too fast.


----------



## burr740

CO2 and flow rates have been all over the place these last 4-5 days while Ive been testing these reactors.

Not only the reactors but also been moving the filter output around, playing with spraybars, running one position for a while, move somewhere else, adjusting bubble rates for the reactors, measure PH drop, rinse and repeat...you get the picture


Getting some algae as a result

The araguaia and stauro especially. This left corner was really blasted with strong current for a couple of days straight










^ also notice the mermaid stem top left...going haywire











C helferi in the front right











Those are the three main areas and it's not a big problem....yet. Just need to get things stable in the next couple days. In the meantime pinch off the worst leaves and the milder stuff should disappear on it's own hopefully. A few days should go a long way. Worst case I'll just raze it to the ground and let clean new growth come in. 

Now isnt the time to be skimping on water changes, will do at least 2x week for the next 2-3 weeks. 


Syn belem aint happy either. All these looked pretty good a week ago. 











Nothing has changed except flow and CO2 levels going radically up and down for a few days. Let that sink in for a minute...


Here it stands today. Sold off some stuff getting ready to do a minor re-scape, this weekend if all goes well.











H. pinna bouncing back well from getting scalped 3 weeks ago. It remains unphased. The Limno belem to the left has lost a bit of color, purple stripes were a lot more dramatic a few days ago










The pinna on March 12











Who says blasting sand is hard on their barbels? :red_mouth


----------



## burr740

Reactor v3.0











Decided to try a 90 degree barb on the bottom, figured the restriction would increase internal pressure. It's working pretty well, by far the best one yet. 

PH drops nearly 1.1 in about two hours, proceeds from there down 1.3-1.35 after another couple hours. Still a small bit of mist though, and it's taking a lot of CO2

The new Hydor filter is beast. Got the flow cut down to maybe 66% and it's still running over 300 gph. Filled a 5 gallon bucket to the rim in 55 seconds. I read where they are rated with media inside, seems likely to be true.










3 o'clock is 'off'











Just the filter running now, Koralia pump is gone. Awww yeah!











That PH drop with this much surface agitation.....HAS to be good, right?

Oddly enough, the tank itself is calmer than ever. I move the outflow to the front right side, aimed across the middle. Plants along the left wall are gently swaying, but not being disturbed like before. Also moved the intake from the center to the far right side in back.

Along the lower levels you can see particles moving steadily back across the tank towards the right. So the flow everywhere seems to be a lot better now.


----------



## JerrySingh

Wow wat a beautiful set up 
Keep up the great work [emoji1360][emoji1360][emoji1360][emoji1360]


From hobby to addiction


----------



## quiquik

Hey burr, just curios about the noise level with the hydor. It looks like a sweet filter.


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## burr740

Thanks Jerry



quiquik said:


> Hey burr, just curios about the noise level with the hydor. It looks like a sweet filter.


There's a slight but distinct hum, louder than the SunSun which was practically silent. Not too bad but more than I'd like. Probably wouldnt notice it much inside a cabinet, mine sits behind the tank. Expect it will get quieter after a couple of weeks, once a biofilm builds up. Most things do. 

Came with tons of media. A course pad, 2 fine pads, and 3 bags of bio rings.










Im using bio from the old filter (ceramic rings and balls) along with a bag of new, pillow floss in one basket, the fine and course sponges, and Purigen which Ive never used before.


Algae update:

Trimmed off the worst of it, not that much really










Couple water changes later (2 in 4 days) the rest is on the retreat




















Some still left on the cypress, didnt trim too much because it wasnt that thick to begin with.











At least 3 or 4 of these Syns are probably toast. Ive never been able to get one back right after it starts doing this....dang it










Limno b is once again happy











Gonna put off doing a rescape for another few days, week maybe, let everything sorta catch it's breath.

New addition :red_mouth


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## quiquik

Looks like some kind of sword... what kind?


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## burr740

Opacus verde, it's either going at the base of the stump, or over to the left as a lower secondary focal point.


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## Seetide

Tank is always looking good! I have a love/hate relationship with the Koralia pumps in my 75 and think I will eventually get another canister and get rid of them. I currently run 3 of the nano ones since my canister is only a c-220. I wanted a low flow rate through my co2 reactor so went with the smaller canister. I love the flow from the Koralias, and like that the shedding plant leaves get stuck to them which makes removal super easy! I dislike the fact that they limit the height of my stem plants in their location because they draw them in also. Are you just running the single canister now and nothing else?


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## Immortal1

Curious what size Hydor you have - looks like it a 600.
Also curious what size SunSun filter that is? Trying to get size idea of what might fit under my tank and what will not. 
Have 2 different AquaTop canisters at the moment (CF-400 on 40g tank & CF-500 on 75g tank). The larger one is a tight fit but it works. My biggest complaint is how much crap makes it up the intake, thru all the filter media (I have a lot), and all the way to the spray bar. If I had the room, I would probably put a pair of Eheim 2217's under there


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## burr740

Seetide said:


> Tank is always looking good! I have a love/hate relationship with the Koralia pumps in my 75 and think I will eventually get another canister and get rid of them. I currently run 3 of the nano ones since my canister is only a c-220. I wanted a low flow rate through my co2 reactor so went with the smaller canister. I love the flow from the Koralias, and like that the shedding plant leaves get stuck to them which makes removal super easy! I dislike the fact that they limit the height of my stem plants in their location because they draw them in also. Are you just running the single canister now and nothing else?


Yeah, just the canister. It's plenty now, and then some.

I used to have a 425 mounted on the same side as the outflow, pointing in the same direction.

With three in there, make sure none of them are working against each other - ie on opposite ends facing one another, with the flow colliding in the middle. You want everything moving flow in the same general direction. 



Immortal1 said:


> Curious what size Hydor you have - looks like it a 600.
> Also curious what size SunSun filter that is? Trying to get size idea of what might fit under my tank and what will not.
> Have 2 different AquaTop canisters at the moment (CF-400 on 40g tank & CF-500 on 75g tank). The larger one is a tight fit but it works. My biggest complaint is how much crap makes it up the intake, thru all the filter media (I have a lot), and all the way to the spray bar. If I had the room, I would probably put a pair of Eheim 2217's under there


It's the 600. SunSun is a 304B, about the same size as a CF 500 I believe.

The Hydor is rectangular shaped, side to side narrower than the sunsun, about the same front to back. Height wise it is taller. 

Needs a minimum of 24" with the hoses attached.


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## burr740

Changed the reactor again. :icon_eek: 

Figured since I had flow to burn might as well try to get it better. It was still taking a ton of CO2, plus some mist

v4.0










Shortened it 3" and filled it halfway with bio balls.

It was late when I finished, and I wasnt keen to get up in time to watch the co2 come on. So I adjusted the CO2 down to about half what it was, just in case, and set the lights to only two bulbs.

When I got up the CO2 had been running for about an hour and a half. PH down a full point. 

Finally!! That is what Ive been looking for - a big drop with far less CO2.

Too early to tell on the mist because air is still working out. But there is no doubt it is a lot more efficient now.

Not as much reduction in flow as I expected either. Got the valves opened about 75% for 300 gph. Would've used more balls if I'd known that...


----------



## Greggz

Curious. Why would shortening the unit make it more efficient and less mist? And do you think the bio balls had a big effect?

Really enjoy following what you are doing there. I can't say I have seen that Hydor filter, but looks like a good one.

And it's heartening to know that even a seasoned veteran like yourself is still experimenting and learning something new. I see the pictures of your tank and figure you are just on autopilot.


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## burr740

Greggz said:


> Curious. Why would shortening the unit make it more efficient and less mist? And do you think the bio balls had a big effect?
> 
> Really enjoy following what you are doing there. I can't say I have seen that Hydor filter, but looks like a good one.
> 
> And it's heartening to know that even a seasoned veteran like yourself is still experimenting and learning something new. I see the pictures of your tank and figure you are just on autopilot.


Oh Im FAR from a veteran. Only been doing plants for a couple years, still learning every day from many many mistakes. 

Couple reasons I shortened it. One is I think being so long made too much head pressure (or something). It was sitting on the floor, vertically. I could lift it up 5"-6" and huge gurgles of air would come out for say...a minute. Simply by lifting it up. Maybe it was CO2, not sure, but something wasnt right.

Straight line from the floor to the top of the tank is like 4' 6", plus the up and down through the reactor itself. 

The other reason is that 30-something inches is just too damn big. From everything Ive read it just shouldnt have to be that long. Keep in mind this is my first ever reactor build. 

Considering the high flow rate, I thought longer would automatically = better. Not in this case apparently.

So I shortened it 3" and mounted it to the side of the stand. It's about a foot off the floor now with less head and a shorter tube length. Early days still, but the gurgling issue seems to be resolved (I can slide it up and down through the bracket, shake it a bit, etc)

And yeah the bio balls made all the difference in the world. Huge difference. May even fill it up more if this doesnt turn out to be perfect...still have ample flow to spare.


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## Immortal1

From what I have learned, the lower the bottom of the reactor, the more head pressure present to squeeze the bubbles into submission.
The bioballs serve as a mechanical means of smashing the bubbles. More balls may not be the best answer. Having the floating balls pushed around by fluid flow should cause them to bounce around and spin, hopefully smashing into the co2 bubbles.

Hate to say this, but once you stop learning its no longer interesting ;-)


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## burr740

I think you are right. But since the balls also restrict flow, they should increase the reactors internal pressure as well. So they probably help in two different ways if you dont mind losing some flow.

May be due more to what you said than pressure, all I know is things dramatically improved.


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## Immortal1

Kinda make me want to build a clear griggs with 2 or 3 bioballs just to observe what happens.


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## burr740

Immortal1 said:


> Kinda make me want to build a clear griggs with 2 or 3 bioballs just to observe what happens.


Definitely makes me wish I'd sprung for some clear pipe like I started to.

These balls are sorta buoyant, but they dont really float. In my mind Ive had them pictured all pressed down towards the bottom. But... if they are up swirling around everywhere it's a different story.


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## Seetide

burr740 said:


> Yeah, just the canister. It's plenty now, and then some.
> 
> I used to have a 425 mounted on the same side as the outflow, pointing in the same direction.
> 
> With three in there, make sure none of them are working against each other - ie on opposite ends facing one another, with the flow colliding in the middle. You want everything moving flow in the same general direction.
> 
> 
> Thanks, I currently have them spaced out across the back of the tank with the canister output on one side and the intake on the other.


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## bcarl_10gal

Burr, 

Awesome tank man! I have very similar water parameters to your tank (dGH=5-6 KH=3-4) and wanted to share some notes on micros. I too switched to flourish comp and was not too impressed also. I have been dosing .05 of CSM+B and .05 DPTA twice a week and am still seeing signs of toxicity, which simply amazes me. I think it really has something to do with the Fe:Mn ratio. I created the clone Tropica mix adding the extra Mn so now my dose is .04 CSM .04 DPTA and .01 from Fe Glut twice a week. I added Mn to the mix to get to a total of .05ppm. So in total my Fe:Mn is approx. 2:1. I will keep you posted.


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## Saxa Tilly

burr740 said:


> My girlfriend thinks Ive lost my mind sometimes. I'll stare at the tank for an hour, then move something....2 inches. :rollseyes: :shakeshead:


Micro-managing each and every stem for maximum visual effect…now THAT is a classic symptom of a true Dutch fan!


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## burr740

@bcarl_10gal Thanks for the info. Ive seen some of your posts/threads on the subject so Ive been keeping up with your experiences. Seems like ours are very similar. And yes, please keep me posted on your results.

Interesting note: I have three tanks in the room where the 50 gal is, another 20 and a 10, all with CO2 and med to high light. I mix one solution for all three. Couple weeks ago I made a mistake with a new batch. Mixed it half strength with the intention of dosing 20 ml in the 50, instead of 10 ml. Well I forgot, and continued to dose only 10 ml for almost two weeks. During this time it was getting roughly .025 csmb, .025 dtpa, along with .05 gluc, which is separate. Everything looked great, better than ever really. This tank has many of the same finicky stems that are in the 75.

Ive tried similar amounts in the 75 before and it seemed to need a bit more, either Fe or some other micro, Im not sure. So anyway, recently Ive gone down to about .03 csmb and .03 dtpa in the 75. Nothing precise, just filling the cap ~2/3 full instead of all the way.

Some things clearly like it....others Im not so sure about.

This is a main reason I decided it was time to focus on getting the CO2 right, that includes better flow and O2. Because it makes no sense to go round in circles tweaking minute levels of micros, sweating this plant or that one, if the CO2 is suspect to begin with. I want to know for a FACT that CO2 is good everywhere, not just what's swirling around the top where I take readings from. I want to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's good everywhere.

If this past couple of weeks has shown me anything, it's what a dramatic and sudden effect poor or irregular CO2 can have.


Reactor update:

v4.5 aka The Final Answer :red_mouth










Added more bio balls, and installed a cut off to the out line. This allows to run the filter wide open and control the flow with the cut off valve, creating pressure inside the reactor.

Flow is a bit less with the extra balls, but still need the cut off valve shut a good bit to stay around 300 gph. That's about the max it can be without blowing plants all over the place, yet still provide good movement in the lower levels.

Zero mist now. 

PH drops 1.1 in ~90 minutes, hits about 1.3 in another couple of hours. That's using less bps than ever. I can almost count them now, 7-8 if I had to guess. 


O2 :hihi:


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## bpb

What's that bulb combo you're running now. Looks like a blue/actinic bulb in there


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## burr740

ATI Purple +
TrueLumen Flora
Zoomed Ultra
Plantmax 3000K

Ran an actinic for a while and liked it a lot. Great color rendition, needs something really warm to balance it out though.


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## bpb

Ah the purple + is what I'm seeing. I've got an extra one of those laying around I've always wanted to give it a try. I think I will


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## burr740

Got the final piece of the CO2 upgrade. 










Shouldve done this a long time ago. That Aquatek was so unreliable, had to check it every day and it was liable to be anything. 


BBA is all but gone now, leaf or two needs pinched off





















Opacus is on it's 3rd new leaf. Really hope the sphaerocarpa will shape up and grow nice. Had it a few months and so far it's never looked very good.











When the Sunset is happy.....e'erybody happy!











Obligatory FTS 

Currently in grow out mode, various stems stuck wherever


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## Saxa Tilly

Look at the reds! Jeez! You've got the growing and husbandry part down pat. Don't change anything!


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## LRJ

Impressive! Superb colors. Love following this tank.


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## Immortal1

"Currently in grow out mode, various stems stuck wherever"
Most of us could only hope for a tank that looks this good 
Hopefully once I get things back where they need to be I will be hitting you up for some more of your beautiful plants!

LOL, showed your grow out tank to the wife...
she said "We hate him"


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## bcarl_10gal

Looking good Burr! How do you like that micro mix??


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## Blackheart

What an amazing and beautiful tank! Those Neons must love it in there!


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## burr740

Saxa Tilly said:


> Look at the reds! Jeez! You've got the growing and husbandry part down pat. Don't change anything!


Thanks in no small part to the plants you gave me!  The sp red was a fantastic addition.

Here's the purple stauro. It's been what, 3 days? Submerged growth already starting.










Cant wait to see this bad boy in full splendor...now if I can just figure out how to scape with it. :red_mouth:



LRJ said:


> Impressive! Superb colors. Love following this tank.


Thanks. I read your journal too. Looking forward to see the new layout.



bcarl_10gal said:


> Looking good Burr! How do you like that micro mix??


Seems to be working pretty well. Noticed a big difference with better CO2/flow these last couple weeks. When things settle down I may inch the values up some to see if there's any improvement. I expect to stay close to these same levels though.


In other news: Apparently shrimps are now eating the mayaca.  Been noticing one or two hanging out in the upper levels a lot lately, starting to see some stripped leaves. 

Kinda hard to tell in the pic. You can see a little damage up high, then down about 9 o'clock there's a couple completely bare stems. 










I would think (hope) the mayaca can overcome it since it grows so fast. But if it comes down to either the shrimps or the plant...goodnight sweet mayaca!

Speaking of better CO2 and flow, plants are really fattening up. That is the biggest change so far.

The Mermaid weed is getting bigger in diameter than Ive ever had it in 2 years. Also starting to morph into looking more like the cuba version, with less spikey leaves





















Got 5 more Syn belems from @*StrungOut* , superb specimens! They are scattered about. Only one of mine survived the week of haywire CO2. It's in pretty good shape but not nearly as robust as his. 


In the process of doing a rescape. 










Did most of the uprooting, working the foreground first. Took half the night and only got 4 species set :icon_eek: 

Lobelia, downoi, and opacus are tenatively positioned...and two Lagenandra meeboldii courtesy of @*Saxa Tilly* . Thanks again man!










Ignore the wood. It's just laying there and all other plants are just stuck in the ground for the time being.

Did a 70% WC after all that, will finish up tonight/tomorrow then do another big WC. Couple days later clean the filter. Also running a UV temporarily.


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## burr740

:hihi:


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## Mathman

I can only assume a 100% diffusion with this setup you've got going. 

What about the flow? Surely it has been drastically reduced, right?


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## burr740

Mathman said:


> I can only assume a 100% diffusion with this setup you've got going.
> 
> What about the flow? Surely it has been drastically reduced, right?



Yep, 100%. This one is perfect.

The last griggs was 100% too. Problem was after about 3 hours it started to gurgle, which indicated a big gas pocket building up top. It would get progressively worse til the CO2 cut off, then slowly fade away in a couple hours. Also, you could unplug the canister and gas would push back down the hose probably 6-8 inches....pretty big bubble.

I fiddled around with the cut off valve and filter outputs for a few days, never could get it to do right with the amount of co2 I needed to push.

So finally I shortened it 6" and put a 10" cerges on the end. Now it's right. 100% dissolution and dead silent the whole time. There's about 20 bio balls in the griggs part.

It did reduce the flow a a lot. Still have the cut off valve closed maybe 20% though, just to fine tune the in-tank circulation. The reactor works fine wide open but it's a little too much turbulence.


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## Immortal1

Interesting setup Burr! But, if it works thats what matters  Being 3' tall overall, does the griggs portion end up behind/next to part of the tank? Or does your stand allow that much room under it?


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## burr740

Immortal1 said:


> Interesting setup Burr! But, if it works thats what matters  Being 3' tall overall, does the griggs portion end up behind/next to part of the tank? Or does your stand allow that much room under it?


The tank sits in a corner, only the front and left side is visible. Mainly just the front because a TV is on the left. 

The stand is sort of industrial style with one lower shelf, no room for any equipment underneath. The filter and CO2 sit behind the tank, the reactor is mounted on the side that's against the wall. From the normal points of view in the room, basically everything is hidden


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## Immortal1

I like the sound of that (everything hidden). Lets you enjoy whats in the tank even more without being distracted by whats hanging out of the tank. Industrial style is very cool but unfortunately for my living room it just wouldn't work.


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## Greggz

Absolutely love the FrankenReactor! Great work! 

Have you named it yet? I'm sure other nuts like me will be copying this design.......need to know what to call it.


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## d33pVI

Cergesaurus Rex?!!


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## burr740

Haha. The Griggacerges Rex!


Here it stands today. Foreground is pretty well mapped out. Still some work to do with the stem groups.











Im this close to doing all moss on the stump and doing away with the pinna. I like the pinna but it's just such a weed. The leaves arent the problem. It's all the runners with their aggressive roots that's a pita.

They are constantly going down into the pellia, and it's near impossible to remove without doing any damage. Im going to let it grow out one more time and try to do a better job keeping it in check. Think it would look good all moss though...

Moved the stump out from the wall a bit, gonna do something behind it, thinking about the mayaca right there, also have have some rotala mac green that has nice yellowish tips. Originally planned on putting the mayaca in the far right corner. 

Some contrast fail in the back left, will sort that out pretty soon.



















Gonna remove the smaller lagenandra in front and do a pool of HC.


Back to back 70% water changes Fri and Sat, did some major moving both days. Also had been running the UV all this time. By yesterday, the mermaid weed was looking a little short on Fe (or micros in general idk). Rotala sunset also faded a bit. Here's the mermaid on Mon










Added the .05/.05/.05 micro dose yesterday and it's looking a little better. I believe (hope) this should right itself pretty fast. May wind up needing a bit more now with better CO2. Also removed the UV, not sure how much it affects the different chelates really. It certainly doesnt help them though, I do know that...


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## monkeyruler90

looking great !


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## MaroMan

Your tank is looking great after the addition of the Griggacerges Rex! Do you have any more BBA showing up? I am running a Cerges on a FX5 and I don't think I am getting enough co2 to dissolve as I have BBA growing all over. Looking into adding a rex griggs to the system. hoping that i am having a similar issue to yours and it would be easily fixed this way. Keep up the updates! I love reading your technical analysis on the effects of your fertilization!


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## burr740

MaroMan said:


> Your tank is looking great after the addition of the Griggacerges Rex! Do you have any more BBA showing up? I am running a Cerges on a FX5 and I don't think I am getting enough co2 to dissolve as I have BBA growing all over. Looking into adding a rex griggs to the system. hoping that i am having a similar issue to yours and it would be easily fixed this way. Keep up the updates! I love reading your technical analysis on the effects of your fertilization!


Thanks 

No bba to speak of atm. But I didnt have any to begin with really. The bba showed up during the week or two when I was fiddling with different reactors and flow rates. CO2 would be up one day, down the next, or down all of a sudden in the middle of the day while I tried something different...etc. So that's when the bba appeared, and it quickly went away with a bit of pruning, once things stabilized.

Low or irregular co2 can cause it, but so can a lot of other things like dirty filters, organic waste, nutrient deficiencies, and anything else that renders plants unhealthy. 

"Low co2" always correlates to light. Light drives growth rates, and thereby determines how much co2/ferts are needed. Is the co2 low or is the light too high? All depends how you look at it. Correcting one can make up for the other.

That FX5 is pretty powerful, no? Adding a cut off valve after the reactor would increase the internal pressure inside the cerges. Run the filter wide open and restrict the flow via the cut off. More internal pressure will make a BIG difference.

I'd start by getting the tank super clean, the filter, substrate surface, prune off every single bad leaf you can find, open up some space in between plant groups, and increase the frequency of your water changes for a month or two. Algae doesnt like water changes, bba especially. Plants on the other hand love them.

It's easy to go round in circles trying to fix CO2 and nutrients when the real issue is basic husbandry tasks, grunt work like pruning and cleaning. Not saying this applies in your case, just pointing out something to consider.

I do ~60% water changes every 5-6 days minimum, twice a week whenever there's an issue. Also keep the plants well pruned and the tank super clean. I believe that's why I've gotten away with having 120 par and CO2 that's been at least suspect for the past year, and half the plants in a state of tox due to fert experiments - all this with no real algae problems, because the tank is kept uber clean.


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## Saxa Tilly

Great update! tank is looking really good. 

What are you going to do with back left for contrast? 

Since your Acmella street did not work out as planned, have you considered Floscopa scandens or Saururus cernuus, or even Ludwigia simpsonii? Simpsonii is a decent stand-in for Acmella.


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## Mikeygmzmg

That ludwigia red looks amazing.Love the mini pelia too. Great job on this, makes me miss my stem plants!


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## burr740

Saxa Tilly said:


> Great update! tank is looking really good.
> 
> What are you going to do with back left for contrast?
> 
> Since your Acmella street did not work out as planned, have you considered Floscopa scandens or Saururus cernuus, or even Ludwigia simpsonii? Simpsonii is a decent stand-in for Acmella.


Thanks man. Still plan on keeping the Acmella. It seems to have adapted and not putting out side shoots like it was at first. Gonna try leaving it about where it is, in a smaller group maybe, and work the mayaca behind in the far corner.

I'd like to swap places with the acmella and the rugosa, but the rugosa leaves are too similar to the compact hygro. Dont think it would work over there

Left side, tennative plan on moving the aromatica to the corner, then have the rugosa running in between it and the sp red. Limno belem behind the red and the syn's...something like that.

Thinking about macaranda green behind the stump. Great looking plant that'll contrast well, only thing it grows really fast just like it's cousin. 


Few more pics:


Aromatica is coloring up nicer than Ive ever had it in two years. Best it ever did was get a pinkish brown that was always more brown than pink. Now it's turning a bonafide red. This is 100% due to better CO2 I think





















Opacus verde has a tiny bit of algae on the border of two or three older leaves. It set in couple weeks ago during the great CO2 flux. Hopefully it will slough on off and not be a problem going forward.


----------



## burr740

Stem groups/species still tentative











Discovered something interesting about flow and the CO2 relationship. Ever since upgrading the filter and reactor, I'd taken out the Koralia 425. Measured flow with just the filter is a little over 300 gph, with good surface agitation and water movement throughout.

CO2 kicks on 90 min before the lights. PH was dropping from ~7.6 down to 6.5 at lights on. Then on down to the lower 6.2's a couple hours later. I could drop it faster initially, but it becomes too much for the fish later on in the day. Mainly just the Otos. Once it hit's 6.4 or so, they all gather on the glass somewhere and dont move for the rest of the day.

Few days ago on a whim I decided to put the Koralia back in. It's in the back right corner, facing left in the same general direction as the filter output. About the only position it can be without creating too much current somewhere in the tank.

Here's where it gets interesting. The next morning I checked the PH at lights on, because I thought there may be a decrease with all the extra turbulence. Guess what? CO2 was already down in the 6.3's, almost a full .2 more than before. Otos swimming around like it's all good. Later on in the day it gets down into the 6.1s, Otos still become less active, but not as much as before. 

So apparently, more flow also helps CO2 dissolution. Im at a loss to understand why in this case. I could see it if there was a big mist like using an atomizer or such, where the flow kept micro bubbles in the tank longer, swirling them around more, etc. But there is zero mist coming from this set up. Zero. 

If anyone can explain that to me I'd love to hear it. 


Few more pics...




















Mermaid weed still hasnt recovered (main reason I brought the Koralia back) Here it is just before.










Notice the pale, stunted tops. This is definitely not a toxicity. There is no withered, droopy or fried looking growth. This is a deficiency. Tank had been about a week with csmb/dtpa/gluc dosed at .0125 each, 3x week. Plants in the 50 do well at this level.

Couple days before ^that, I'd moved a lot of things around, then did a big water change, about 80%, also put the UV back on temporarily. So the already lean nutrients got a pretty big reset. Couple days later is when the above symptoms really exaggerated, but if you recall they werent perfect to begin with.

A few days with more flow/co2 didnt change anything, so Im creeping the micros up a little bit at a time. Been a few days now with .0187 csmb/dtpa, and .02-.03 gluc.

Here they are today, doing slightly better. I'll keep this dosage for another week or so, then bump to .025 depending how it looks










Everything else is pretty much thriving.










^ Lud red is freshly topped, why it looks a little rough





















Need to find a better piece of wood for this right hand branch, one slightly bigger with more presence. The branches are only there to compliment the stump, to give it a reason for being there. But I think this one is too small in proportion.










Stauro patch is spotless


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## monkeyruler90

looking great!!


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## Saxa Tilly

Looking at your tank is like a party in my eyes! I just want to sit and stare. Wow!

Your Acmella is NOTHING like mine! Funny. It's like we're growing different species. I love that the Mayaca almost looks white!


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## Greggz

It's really something the way you seem to get the most out of every plant.

I always enjoy your posts, and have learned much from reading them. Thanks for sharing.


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## burr740

Thanks @monkeyruler90 . looking forward to that wallichi! 



Saxa Tilly said:


> Looking at your tank is like a party in my eyes! I just want to sit and stare. Wow!
> 
> Your Acmella is NOTHING like mine! Funny. It's like we're growing different species. I love that the Mayaca almost looks white!


Ive noticed that too. And we know it's the same species because these are from the ones you gave me!










Take a look at the Sunset, you can see a couple stems with the sideways leaves I was telling you about. It's already a little better, 24 hours later.

Cliffs for others: Saxa is currently experimenting with Sunset, specifically lower nitrates. The other day, on one of those whims I tend to get, I dosed 8/1.5/8 N/P/K, rather than the usual 5/1/5. Sunset's top leaves all curled sideways by the end of the day. Crazy huh



Greggz said:


> It's really something the way you seem to get the most out of every plant.
> 
> I always enjoy your posts, and have learned much from reading them. Thanks for sharing.


Thanks man, that is very nice to hear.

Although I find the first part funny, because there's always one or two species that are giving me an absolute FIT! :red_mouth


*In other news:*

Moved a few shrimps to my 10 gallon. Gonna try to get some breeding going. I guess they are breeding in the 75 but it's hard to tell. There is no cover on the filter intake - there never will be - Im sure any fry that go near it probably get sucked up. 

Also not sure about the Cories, they probably eat some babies too?

Here's the 10. It sits underneath the 50, running on the same CO2 tank (10 lb) 

Light is a Finnex Stingray, about 55 PAR directly underneath, more than you see them rated at.



















Willow sp gigantea on the bottom, pretty cool moss


----------



## burr740

Trying to solve the mystery of what caused Rotala sunset's leaves to curl, as touched on above.

Here is a pic from today. Notice how the top leaves are curled up and twisting sideways, some worse than others.











This began two days ago after an increased dose of macros. Here is the current fert routine, doses are 3x week.

N - 5
P - 1
K - 5 (that's total, accounting for KNO3, etc)

Micros were - csmb, Fe dtpa 11%, and Fe gluconate, at .0125 ppm each.

A little over a week ago, as previously mentioned, I increased it 50%, up to .0187 for csmb and dtpa, and gluc at about .03 ppm. It's been 4 maybe 5 doses of this amount. Things were looking OK, the mermaid weed was getting a bit more color, but not a drastic improvement. 

So, day before yesterday I dosed macros around 8/1.6/8 N/P/K. Nothing exact, just did 8 or 9 capfuls instead of the usual 6 (I dont remember if it was 8 or 9) By the end of the photo period, almost all the Sunset's leaves had curled. 

Next day they seemed to relax a little bit. Dosed micros at .0187...

Today was macros again. I dosed slightly less than usual, whatever 3/4's of 5/1/5 is.

By the end of the photo period they look like total crap again. (above pic)

Important to note that before, probably 1 out of 5 stems were already slightly curled. but for the most part they looked OK.

I find it very hard to believe one big dose of macros could have such a dramatic effect. But since it began within a few hours on the same day, the timeline definitely fits.

The Sunset in the 50 has always looked better. They are damn near perfect. Always. That tank has been getting the .0125 routine for probably 3 months. Same 5/1/5 macros.

Here is a pic of those from today










It sounds crazy even talking about such a trivial amount, but I suspect it is the increased micros that the 75 doesnt like. 

Something else that happened in the last day or two, one Syn belem stem has gone pale. 

(bottom right, not so noticeable in the pic)









Ive seen this movie before.

That stem is history, I guarantee it. Not one time has a stem ever come back once it started showing signs of unhappiness. It is pretty obvious that Im operating on the very outer edge of what this plant finds acceptable.


So here's the plan. Tomorrow Im going to double up macros in the 50 to see if it induces a curling response in the Sunset.

If nothing happens, that will point to micros being the problem in the 75. If the Sunset curls or protests in any way, then it must be the extra macros.

Will post the results...


----------



## TaylorTurner

I'll be curious to hear how this plays out.


----------



## DennisSingh

See! Surface agitation hardly degasses.

You need to add more iron for your belem, then update us if it goes to hell


----------



## burr740

Early days yet, but it doesnt look like macros had anything to do with it. Dosed 10/2/10 in the 50 two nights ago, after making that last post. Next day the usual .0125 micro regime. This morning gave the whole tank a pretty good trim, followed by a 60% water change. Then 10/2/10 macros. I purposely didnt touch the Sunset because it can occassionally pout after being topped and replanted.

Still looking good










Here's a crappy pic just to show the level of plant mass in the tank. As you can see, it's not like there's a ton of nitrate hogs sucking it all up.










Will continue the 10/2/10 dosage a couple more times just to see what happens. But if it hasnt happened by now, I seriously doubt that one dose caused anything in the 75.

Sunset in the 75 seems to be making a slow recovery. About half are still curled a good bit, most of them will recover if past experience holds. Probably 5-6 are beyond recovery. These are already producing lower side shoots. 

Easy plant to wound...pretty tough to kill.










The whole group badly needs thinning out and a good prune. Will sort that out in a few days. Toss out the really bad ones, top and replant everything else, reduce the number and give a bit more room in between. After that it should be smooth sailing again.


The little syn stem continues to die a slow death. Another one top left is beginning to turn pale. 










Mermaid weed is basically just sitting there.



StrungOut said:


> You need to add more iron for your belem, then update us if it goes to hell


Yes, it certainly looks like it needs more iron. So does the aromatica now, notice the pale inside of the top leaves.










Pretty obvious a couple things just need more iron, right?

Not so fast. 

Take a look from a month ago, this was during the .0125 routine and 2x weekly water changes.



burr740 said:


> Aromatica is coloring up nicer than Ive ever had it in two years. Best it ever did was get a pinkish brown that was always more brown than pink. Now it's turning a bonafide red. This is 100% due to better CO2 I think


Not only was the tank getting 33% less micros and Fe then, but probably closer to 50% less due to the extra water changes.

That's why it can be so hard to figure out, because too much looks the same as not enough, at least in the early stages.

Whether it's too much micros or too much Fe, havent quite figured that out yet, but I suspect it's more to do with micros.

One good thing about an inert substrate with no cec is how easy it is to reset nutrient levels. Skipped micros yesterday, 80% water change today + macros. Tomorrow will start back at .0125 csmb, or maybe even .01, dtpa and gluc at .0125. Run that for a week or so. The next move if necessary will be small increases in Fe alone, leaving micros low.


Will update the Sunset experiment after a few more doses in the 50. Also have a couple stems of Rotala mac and mac green in there. Interested to see how they look as well.


----------



## DennisSingh

If your seeing centers turn pale then outward more green, then its iron. which if you dose you will see new results in one day.

stupid. i don't have a before pic how pale it was...
but see how the inside is more green, results were rapid, dosing iron












but i do see browning thats a bad sign and i hope you figure it out, please! don't lose all your belem, this pattern seems to be repeating with everyone....

i think myself, I got things down, but this is a very good subject interesting to me.


----------



## jaymyess

Dropping by to say those are gorgeous-looking plants! I am a sucker for well-planted tanks. I would love to have the plants you have but I am using only strong indirect sunlight which is not enough for many, if not most, of the stocks you have.

Also great technical info.


----------



## burr740

Thanks jaymyess, stop by anytime. 



StrungOut said:


> but i do see browning thats a bad sign and i hope you figure it out, please! don't lose all your belem, this pattern seems to be repeating with everyone....
> 
> i think myself, I got things down, but this is a very good subject interesting to me.


What is your KH? 

Mine is about 5.5, nearest I can tell using a calibrated API liquid test. I suspect one reason it is so unforgiving to me is because my water is borderline too hard for the species.

I know @Saxa Tilly has soft water. He can abuse the plant mercilessly without consequence. Some of his stems are a foot and half long!

For me, when everything is ideal it grows fine, and fast. But if the least little thing goes off.... Boom. Dead.


----------



## DennisSingh

I have not measured...

I use ro mix with maybe 20% tap.

I gotta say it J.

Belem is for the amateurs , you really want to get into syngonanthus, try all the others. How's madeira doing?


----------



## burr740

StrungOut said:


> I use ro mix with maybe 20% tap.


So probably 1 or 2 at the most then.




StrungOut said:


> How's madeira doing?


All dead 

That first stem shot up like a rocket, fat and green. About the time I got those other 5 had some issues in the 50. Upgraded the filter and changed CO2 delivery. Gas was low and/or all over the place for a few days. It quickly melted, just like all the belems in the 75 when I was screwing around with different reactors for two weeks.

Really like that plant though. Was intending to replace the belem with it because I prefer the look. I feel like it will do about as well as the belem for me. Fine when everything is perfect. Dead otherwise.


----------



## DennisSingh

Darn.
Work with me, I'm trying to prop as much as i can. You'll have it back eventually.


----------



## burr740

StrungOut said:


> Darn.
> Work with me, I'm trying to prop as much as i can. You'll have it back eventually.


Let me know when you have maybe six to get rid of, the taller the better. Hopefully I'll have the right environment for it by then....hopefully


----------



## a_cynical_optimist

Everything looks healthy and beautiful! [emoji1362]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Saxa Tilly

Do you think the Sunset in the 75 are pouting because they're crowded and struggling for CO2 and other resources? The propeller-style sideways twisting is mild complaint. See if the plant fully closes leaves shut an hour or two after lights out. If they can still do that, you're fine. 

Belem comes from low-nutrient areas in the wild, but they are super tolerant to EI levels of macros and micros. IME I'd say Syngonanthus complain more at low ferts than full EI. Add a tiny bit of DTPA and see if your fortunes change.


----------



## burr740

Saxa Tilly said:


> Do you think the Sunset in the 75 are pouting because they're crowded and struggling for CO2 and other resources? The propeller-style sideways twisting is mild complaint. See if the plant fully closes leaves shut an hour or two after lights out. If they can still do that, you're fine.


Already add dtpa proportionate to csmb. .0125 csm / .0125 dtpa / .0125 gluc.

So when I refer to the .0125 routine, for example, that's what I mean. 

That's not to say a bit more Fe wouldnt help, which is my next move if need be. Currently can bump only the gluc because csm and dtpa are in the same solution. Sometimes I dose .03 or so gluc. Feel like since plants in the 50 do pretty well at .0125, this is a good baseline from which to stay, or slowly proceed with more Fe.

Could very well be a crowding issue with the Sunset. I actually thought about that. The biggest stems were affected the most. Which could make sense because they need the most stuff? 

But the Syns arent crowded, neither is the aromatica. Plus the Sunset has rebounded some over the last few days. 

So I feel like "something" happened globally to send things off track. Could be wrong....


----------



## Saxa Tilly

Aromatic and Belem look like they need something. Like iron. 

The Sunset, on the other hand, I think is finicky-ness. If it were a person, it could easily be fixed with a swift smack to the back of the head.


----------



## burr740

Saxa Tilly said:


> Aromatic and Belem look like they need something. Like iron.


I agree. But then you have to ask why they both looked perfect a month ago with 33% less, and twice the water changes going on which would keep the levels even lower? 

Besides that single big dose of macros, which I think is irrelevant, the ONLY thing that changed is a 50% increase in csmb and dtpa. 

And the water changes of course, which are now every 5-6 days instead of every 3.

The aromatica has never been one to stunt, stall, wither or otherwise protest in any way. The only thing it does is change colors.



Saxa Tilly said:


> The Sunset, on the other hand, I think is finicky-ness. If it were a person, it could easily be fixed with a swift smack to the back of the head.


 :hihi:


----------



## bcarl_10gal

burr740 said:


> I agree. But then you have to ask why they both looked perfect a month ago with 33% less, and twice the water changes going on which would keep the levels even lower?
> 
> Besides that single big dose of macros, which I think is irrelevant, the ONLY thing that changed is a 50% increase in csmb and dtpa.
> 
> And the water changes of course, which are now every 5-6 days instead of every 3.
> 
> The aromatica has never been one to stunt, stall, wither or otherwise protest in any way. The only thing it does is change colors.
> 
> :hihi:


I would suspect is has more to do with the decrease in water changes than the change in micros. I also struggle with the same thing, very hard to tell the difference between to much or to little.


----------



## burr740

bcarl_10gal said:


> I would suspect is has more to do with the decrease in water changes than the change in micros. I also struggle with the same thing, very hard to tell the difference between to much or to little.


Do you mean because with less water changes there is more nutrient build up now, or something else related to water changes?

Every 3 days is roughly after 1.5 dosing cycles of macros/micros. Every 6 days is after 3 dosing cycles. The most you can build up between 50% water changes is 2x whatever is dosed in between (assuming zero plant uptake). So theoretically, I could have twice as much in the water column now than before. And that's not even counting the 33% increase.



.0125 csmb, .0125 dtpa, 0125 gluc, lets say 1.5x because that what it averages out to be changing water every 3 days. 

So total of .0187 ppm for each thing dosed between water changes.

.0187 x 2 = .0374 total possible in the water column for each csmb, dtpa and gluc.

.0374 x 3 = .112 Total possible Fe in the water column. 



Changing water every 6 days and dosing .0187 ppm each for csmb, dtpa and gluce per dose

.0187 x 3 = .0561 total ppm each for each csmb, dtpa and gluc dosed between water changes.

.0561 x 2 = .112 total possible from csmb

.112 x 3 = .336 total possible Fe

If my math is correct, assuming zero plant uptakes:

Difference in csmb is .0374 ppm and .112 ppm, max possible in the water column.

Difference in total Fe is .112 and .336, max possible in the water column. 


That means the water column potentially has 3x more now than before, holy crap!

Just worked this out for the first time actually. If I did it right, that is a sobering statistic! :icon_eek:


----------



## Saxa Tilly

I think bcarl has a point. And looks like you had an oh-sh*t moment. Although Fe of 0.336 is something many tanks can handle. 

Despite how nice your tank looks, otherwise carefree plants seem to develop a rather rigid and narrow acceptable nutrient ranges in your tank. The words 'mitigating factors' (from one of Marcel Golias' threads) come to mind. Seems like your tanks is missing some of that. Low-cec and low-organic substrate may be why your tank appears to have less toxicity mitigation. Just a wild guess.


----------



## burr740

Saxa Tilly said:


> I think bcarl has a point. And looks like you had an oh-sh*t moment. Although Fe of 0.336 is something many tanks can handle.
> 
> Despite how nice your tank looks, otherwise carefree plants seem to develop a rather rigid and narrow acceptable nutrient ranges in your tank. The words 'mitigating factors' (from one of Marcel Golias' threads) come to mind. Seems like your tanks is missing some of that. Low-cec and low-organic substrate may be why your tank appears to have less toxicity mitigation. Just a wild guess.


Yes, something to that effect. I agree.

And definitely just had a moment! I was over here like Danny the 1st grader thinking I made only a slight increase....and wondering wth 

:nerd:


----------



## burr740

Did a 60% wc today, picked and pruned a little bit.

There can only be one deficiency at a time. So when you have various symptoms across multiple species, it is either a toxicity or CO2. In this case, I know for a fact that CO2 is good.

Here's some more pics I took today of various issues.

One of the mermaid stems melted off at the bottom, here it's just floating in mid air.










From past experience, if it ever turns that deep bright orange, especially in splotches, the chances for that stem's survival arent good. The other two deep colored ones are still solid all the way down, but I doubt they make it.

The two greener ones look healthy. I topped the biggest one, replanted the top and left the stump. It should make a couple of side shoots now.












sp red is showing some mild symptoms. A few tops have stunted, crinkled and turned dark around the borders. 










Also dropping a few older leaves that look like this











About half the Ammania bonsai has lost color and stunted badly, especially the smaller ones.










Compare to the ones in the 50 











Opacus verde isnt worried about much of anything.....what micros?










Araguaia is thriving and spotless ^

Stauro is thriving and spotless

Seen other people blame micros for stauro problems, and maybe it was, but it's never been sensitive at all for me. Not in the least bit, even when other plants were absolutely frying.










AR and Downoi.....thriving and spotless. 










I know that globally speaking, it is a very mild case because AR isnt shy about protesting with twisted leaves.


And finally in other news, looks like I'll be posting some mini pelia for sale.......dammit!










This is nothing to do with ferts. That whole chunk has been loose for a while, came off today during the water change.


----------



## bcarl_10gal

I saw the exact same symptoms with my ludwigia red when I had micro tox. I think those of us that use mostly RO or have pretty soft water have a harder time fighting this toxicity balance. I'd cut it back a bit, or perform more frequent water changes. I would be curious to see if it was less sensitive if you added some Mn to your mix.


----------



## burr740

Im going back to .0125 for each thing, 3x week, and the usual 60% WC every 5-7 days. That works pretty well in the 50. I may hold off on gluc at first to see what happens. 

Also thought about trying .02 csmb and .01 dtpa. Wish I knew if the catalyst was Fe or one of the micro nutrients. Im not bold enough to try either one to an extreme, prefer to just finesse my way through. 

Overall Im not worried about it. Been here before, and much much worse, at times without a clue what was going on. Now that the possibility of CO2 or flow issues is out of the picture, it's just a matter of fine tuning the right amount. Which I feel pretty close to already


----------



## bcarl_10gal

burr740 said:


> Im going back to .0125 for each thing, may hold off on gluc at first to see what happens.
> 
> Also thought about trying .02 csmb and .01 dtpa. Wish I knew if the catalyst was Fe or one of the micro nutrients.


Wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with the Fe:Mn ratio.


----------



## burr740

bcarl_10gal said:


> Wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with the Fe:Mn ratio.


Used to think there might be some Mn in my tap throwing things off. Water report shows zero, and PortalmasterRY confirmed with his Hanna test (or whatever he uses)

I may try to strike a 2:1 balance somehow, probably should do that.

If it works, it would then be very interesting to see if the levels of everything could be raised higher than what is acceptable now.


----------



## Saxa Tilly

Ludwigia Red is not as trouble-free as most people think. It will let you know when something is not right. When I lowered light and switched from from EI to half-strength Thrive in preparation for being away, my Lud Red shed a bunch of leaves and melted some stems. I yanked it all out, trimmed, and replanted. It's fine now. But color has changed from wine red to reddish brown. 

Rotala indica is about like Ludwigia Red in its finickiness. Usually well-behaved, but it's not shy about letting you know when you've screwed up. 

My suggestion for you is to mimic your 50 routine with the 75. A bunch of water changes to reset will probably help. In the meantime, I have no clue what exactly is causing this.


----------



## Christophe

burr740 said:


> Stauro is thriving and spotless
> 
> Seen other people blame micros for stauro problems, and maybe it was, but it's never been sensitive at all for me. Not in the least bit, even when other plants were absolutely frying.


I'm finding that my stauro does better (faster growth, MUCH larger leaves) since cutting copper out of my micro dosing a couple weeks ago. I'm now pretty sure there's enough copper in my tap water without dosing additionally, just not sure exactly how much. I do know if I dose significant amounts like what I'd get doing CSM+B to 1.5ppm Fe, I kill shrimp & stall all growth.

AR leaves are also bigger and flatter with the copper cut. I need to hunt down an environmental company to test my tap, see what's actually up.


----------



## burr740

Christophe said:


> I'm finding that my stauro does better (faster growth, MUCH larger leaves) since cutting copper out of my micro dosing a couple weeks ago. I'm now pretty sure there's enough copper in my tap water without dosing additionally, just not sure exactly how much. I do know if I dose significant amounts like what I'd get doing CSM+B to 1.5ppm Fe, I kill shrimp & stall all growth.
> 
> AR leaves are also bigger and flatter with the copper cut. I need to hunt down an environmental company to test my tap, see what's actually up.



When Portalmaster tested my water Cu was 18 ppb or 0.018 ppm. This was tank water, so tap plus whatever from csmb. Seemed kinda high but I really dont know what high is. PM said his tanks are in the 30-50 ppb range. Shrimp are fine so I assume .018 is an acceptable level. 

Do you know how much was in your water to begin with?

For anyone interested Portalmaster offers to test people's water. Cost a few bob but imo worth it for certain things, just to know for sure.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/153-sale-trade/1013689-water-parameter-nutrient-testing.html


----------



## Christophe

burr740 said:


> When Portalmaster tested my water Cu was 18 ppb or 0.018 ppm. This was tank water, so tap plus whatever from csmb. Seemed kinda high but I really dont know what high is. PM said his tanks are in the 30-50 ppb range. Shrimp are fine so I assume .018 is an acceptable level.
> 
> Do you know how much was in your water to begin with?
> 
> For anyone interested Portalmaster offers to test people's water. Cost a few bob but imo worth it for certain things, just to know for sure.
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/153-sale-trade/1013689-water-parameter-nutrient-testing.html


Don't know what's in my tap -- thanks for the tip about Portalmaster, if I can't find somebody locally who does it for a reasonable price, I'll look into it.


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## PortalMasteryRy

burr740 said:


> When Portalmaster tested my water Cu was 18 ppb or 0.018 ppm. This was tank water, so tap plus whatever from csmb. Seemed kinda high but I really dont know what high is. PM said his tanks are in the 30-50 ppb range. Shrimp are fine so I assume .018 is an acceptable level.
> 
> Do you know how much was in your water to begin with?
> 
> For anyone interested Portalmaster offers to test people's water. Cost a few bob but imo worth it for certain things, just to know for sure.
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/153-sale-trade/1013689-water-parameter-nutrient-testing.html


Thanks for the plug Burr for my water testing service! 

I remember having Cu levels running from 25 to 35 ppb (not ppm). I don't think Cu was even an issue unless you are raising shrimp. 

Regarding commercial water testing, they are not cheap hence the reason I invested in my photometer. I used a service once and paid $90 for one set of tests. Usually they bundle a bunch of test which does not include the micro nutrient testing since it is usually not an issue for people growing non-aquatic plants.


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## Mathman

Burr give us an update please 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## burr740

The last couple weeks have been more laboratory than scape. Tried a couple things, didnt take photos of it all so you'll just have to take my word for it. 

The week following the last posing on 6/5, did a big water change, then .01 csmb and .01 dtpa, three doses before next wc. The sunset started to relax and look more like normal, so did the syn belem, but the arromatica got even paler. To the point a couple tops actually began to melt. Never seen that before. So it seemed like there was definitely a deficiency occurring.

Then the next week, after a big water change, dosed .025 csmb, .01 dtpa, and .01 gluc. Also added enough Mn for just below a 2:1 Fe:Mn ratio. (personally I dont think this has squat to do with anything. Too many people dosing csmb + additional fe without a problem. But if I never tried it, then I would always be wondering)

The day after the first dose, Sunset started to curl again. Nevertheless I decided to stick it out for a full week (3 doses) and see what happened.

Nothing much did, except the Sunset got worse and worse. It did seem to halt the aromatica's decline, mermaid weed perked up a bit. The Syn belem did not approve and went back to faded, browning tops. Only 4-5 decent stems left now out of 12-14 nice ones a few weeks ago. Ludwigia red has made a pretty rapid recovery through it all, after looking so bad on 6/5. 

Here is the Sunset at it's worst, at the end of the .025/.01/.01 week. Not a very good pic but you can see the severely deformed tops.










I wound up just cutting all the bad tops off, lots of new side shoots still in pretty good shape. It will grow back soon enough. 

So that brings us to today, 3 doses into the third week. This week's dosing has been .015 csmb, .01 dtpa, and .01 gluc, and a dash of Mn to get roughly 2.5:1 ratio. This is more in line with what the 50 likes, and is looking pretty favorable so far. 

I do realize that Im not giving these doses much time to play out. But the plants in question are pretty quick to show whether they are happy or not. So it is what it is. 

Here's a few quick pics from today. Water is a little cloudy because I'd just finished a water change, literally 5 minutes ago. Didnt look this bad in person, guess the camera exaggerated it.












Bonsai is recovering nicely, good top growth coming back in 











Lud sp red is almost perfect again. Growth looks good on the Mermaid Weed. To the right you can see the still suffering Syns :/









^^ The little specs on the Lobelia are sand...dont go thinking it's algae now! :red_mouth


Lagenandra has produced a couple babies 










AR mini is absolutely flawless, has been the whole time










Sunset looking better











Gonna stop playing around now, grow some things out for a couple weeks then make a more presentable arrangement....hopefully


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## bcarl_10gal

A few comments. Why did you increase your iron/micro dosing when you first added Mn? Maybe you had an overdose of other micros rather than the ratio change. Also when you adjust ratio's within mixes it takes much longer than a few days to see changes. Since you have a high CEC substrate the ratio in the substrate takes a while to balance out as well. A common theme I see is your tank likes water changes, maybe start doing 2 small per week instead of one big? 

My micro sweet spot seems to be about .1ppm per week in Fe between CSM/DPTA and bringing Mn up to about .05.


----------



## burr740

bcarl_10gal said:


> A few comments. Why did you increase your iron/micro dosing when you first added Mn? Maybe you had an overdose of other micros rather than the ratio change. Also when you adjust ratio's within mixes it takes much longer than a few days to see changes. Since you have a high CEC substrate the ratio in the substrate takes a while to balance out as well. A common theme I see is your tank likes water changes, maybe start doing 2 small per week instead of one big?
> 
> My micro sweet spot seems to be about .1ppm per week in Fe between CSM/DPTA and bringing Mn up to about .05.


Hey b

*"Why did you increase your iron/micro dosing when you first added Mn"*

Two reasons:

1) because there were deficiency symptoms progressively worse after the previous week of .01/,01. The tank needed something, 

2) If we assume an improper Fe:Mn ratio is the underlying cause of the tank needing/tolerating such small amounts of fe, then correcting the ratio should alleviate the faux toxicity symptoms....right? 

In other words, what was a little too much before should become favorable now with the proper ratio. At least that is what makes sense to me.

*"Maybe you had an overdose of other micros rather than the ratio change."*

Yes, that is what I think happened. I didnt mean the additional Mn was the problem. The problem, I believe, was the higher micros in general that week. 

*Since you have a high CEC substrate the ratio in the substrate takes a while to balance out as well.*

Substrate is inert blasting sand, very little to zero CEC. 

*"A common theme I see is your tank likes water changes, maybe start doing 2 small per week instead of one big? "*

The tank definitely loves water changes. Is there a high tech tank that doesnt?

These past 3 weeks water changes have been every 6 days with 3 doses between them

~70% WC -macros
micros
macros
micros
macros
micros

~70% WC, macros, and so on...

Actually there is no problem now. I know pretty much where the sweet spot is, somewhere close to .1 -.12 total Fe per week. 

The problem arose 4-5 weeks ago when I inadvertently went a lot higher doing water changes after 3 doses instead of after 2 doses during the .0187/.0187/.0187 routine.

The only reason I had increased then from the .0125 routine is to test whether better co2 somehow alleviated the sensitivity to micros. That theory has definitely proven false.

Back to Mn. If that ratio is so important, or the cause of toxicity, then correcting it should make previous toxic levels become favorable. That does not seem to be the case, although granted, I havent tried it out long enough with higher levels to see. And like I said earlier, there's too many people dosing csmb + more Fe without issue. If this ratio was so critical there would be more problems across the board with everyone....wouldn't there?

Anyway, at this point Im just going back to what has worked for so long in all my tanks, which were/are fine to begin with. Will still keep the additional Mn going, maybe I'll notice a slight difference somewhere.


----------



## Mathman

.1 - .12 total per week coming from CSM+B?

With this amount, do you observe any twisting or stunted new growth?

What would you say your growth rate is? I understand that this differs from plant to plant, but just to get an idea, what would you say, an inch a week?


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## Mathman

*A 75 Gallon Journey -&gt;*



Mathman said:


> .1 - .12 total per week coming from CSM+B?
> 
> With this amount, do you observe any twisting or stunted new growth?
> 
> What would you say your growth rate is? I understand that this differs from plant to plant, but just to get an idea, what would you say, an inch a week?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Looks like it's coming from both CSM+B and DTPA


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## burr740

Mathman said:


> Looks like it's coming from both CSM+B and DTPA


.0125-.015 csmb
.01-.0125 dtpa 11%
.01-.0125 Fe gluconate

2x to 3x between water changes

Staying somewhere in this range agrees with most all the plants I have.

Here's my own list of which plants care about micros and which ones dont, based on personal experience, so this is purely anecdotal.

*Very sensitive:* 

Meaning that too much = mortal danger, often in a hurry

Ammania gracilis
Proserpinana palustris (Mermaid weed)
Rotala macaranda and mac green
Rotala sunset 
Rotala wallichii appears to be the same, only had it a couple months
Syngonanthus (all)


*Somewhat sensitive:*

Meaning these do poorly - lose color, stunt/deform, get algae, etc - symptoms are often quick to appear, but typically these plants arent going to die any time soon.

Acmella repens
Ammania sp bonsai (True rotala indica)
Anubias nana sp
AR (mini and regular)
Cypress helferi
Erio breviscapum and polaris
Hygrophila araguaia
Hygrophila pinnatifida
Limnophila aromatica
Limnophila belem
Limnophila rugosa
Lilaeopsis brasiliensis (Micro sword)
Ludwigias (all)
Marsilea crenata
Mayaca fluviatilis
Persicaria sao paulo
Pogosteman erectus


*Not sensitive at all:*

Meaning up to full EI micros with no ill effects.


Bacopa caroliniana
Bacopa monnieri
Blyxa japonica
Crypt wendtii sp
Erio vietnam
Hemianthus callitrichoides (HC)
Hygrophila corymbosa 'compacta" 
Java ferns
Lobelia cardinalis 'small form'
Mosses
Pogosteman helferi (Downoi)
Staurogyne repens
Swords
Vals (corkscrew variety)


----------



## Mathman

Wow,

Great information you've shared my friend. You have dosed this amount for how long? I know you mentioned that this seems like the "sweet spot" for most if not all plants.

Recently, you've played with other amounts so just wondering how long you've stayed with this regime.


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## burr740

Since two years ago had at least 2 tanks running with med-high light and CO2, currently have 4. 

Early days, first 6-8 months, still very much a noob just following the standard EI recipe

Year or so into it, after much frustration and many fried plants, began to realize the problems I was having with certain species seemed directly related to Fe or micros in general. This was before "micro-tox" became the popular term to blame everything on...so I thought it was just me.

Current levels described above have been working well for.....idk, 8-10 months now. Although I've continued play around with various doses, that range seems to be the sweet spot for me personally.

Also would just like to point out that it's easy to lay everything at the feet of "micro-tox" ....or ferts in general. When in reality the problems are more likely to be poor CO2/flow, or lack of basic husbandry tasks - the grunt work like good cleaning and pruning. 

It is my opinion that before any discussion of fert problems can begin, those other factors need to be right - right to the point that you know they are right beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Too many times people hook up a diffuser and see a green drop checker, then mistakenly assume they have "good CO2". When in reality, it is not good at all, and this causes all sorts of problems that can look like a hundred different things.

It took me a while to realize that too.


----------



## APynckel

This tank is incredible. Are you still running 100% BDBS with osmocote+? I'm going that route in my soon-to-be planted scape. Really wanting to try the dutch method now.

Would you think a pair of Current Satellite Plus Pro's would be able to sustain that level of plant life? Really digging this setup.


----------



## LRJ

burr740 said:


> Here's my own list of which plants care about micros and which ones dont, based on personal experience, so this is purely anecdotal.
> 
> *Very sensitive:*
> 
> Meaning that too much = mortal danger, often in a hurry
> 
> Ammania gracilis
> Proserpinana palustris (Mermaid weed)
> Rotala macaranda and mac green
> Rotala sunset
> Rotala wallichii appears to be the same, only had it a couple months
> Syngonanthus (all)
> 
> 
> *Somewhat sensitive:*
> 
> Meaning these do poorly - lose color, stunt/deform, get algae, etc - symptoms are often quick to appear, but typically these plants arent going to die any time soon.
> 
> Acmella repens
> Ammania sp bonsai (True rotala indica)
> Anubias nana sp
> AR (mini and regular)
> Cypress helferi
> Erio breviscapum and polaris
> Hygrophila araguaia
> Hygrophila pinnatifida
> Limnophila aromatica
> Limnophila belem
> Limnophila rugosa
> Lilaeopsis brasiliensis (Micro sword)
> Ludwigias (all)
> Marsilea crenata
> Mayaca fluviatilis
> Persicaria sao paulo
> Pogosteman erectus
> 
> 
> *Not sensitive at all:*
> 
> Meaning up to full EI micros with no ill effects.
> 
> 
> Bacopa caroliniana
> Bacopa monnieri
> Blyxa japonica
> Crypt wendtii sp
> Erio vietnam
> Hemianthus callitrichoides (HC)
> Hygrophila corymbosa 'compacta"
> Java ferns
> Lobelia cardinalis 'small form'
> Mosses
> Pogosteman helferi (Downoi)
> Staurogyne repens
> Swords
> Vals (corkscrew variety)


Very interesting. If you were to take these same plants and rank them according to light and CO2 requirements, it seems you would get a very similar list. Do you think that's the case, and if so, do you think this says something about the nature of micro tox?


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## burr740

APynckel said:


> This tank is incredible. Are you still running 100% BDBS with osmocote+? I'm going that route in my soon-to-be planted scape. Really wanting to try the dutch method now.
> 
> Would you think a pair of Current Satellite Plus Pro's would be able to sustain that level of plant life? Really digging this setup.


Thanks for the compliment 

Still have the original BD blasting sand, it's about 2.5" deep in front and 3.5" towards the back. have this in all my tanks and like it very much.

Im glad you asked about the Osmocote+, because Ive been meaning to touch on that with all the recent fert discussion.

Early on I used a ton of osmocote+, 00 gel caps crammed full, 2-3 around every plant. Move something to a differnt location...add 2-3 more tabs for it.

Fast forward 6-8 months later when I began seeing adverse reactions to micro/Fe dosing, I assumed it probably had something to do with all the O+. Because like I said in the last post, this was before anyone ever talked about "micro-tox" being a thing.

To make a long story short, finally took all the plants out and, stirred up the sand and manually removed as much as I could. Then went over 15 months without using any. After a few months I kept expecting plants to start needing more micros, or respond differently as the O+ expired. But....nothing ever changed after 15 months. So now Im fairly convinced that O+ had/has absolutely nothing to do with the micro situation. Another thing is I never saw ammonia spikes, high nitrates, or any other issue some people claim to have with it. Not saying it doesnt happen, just that it never happened for me.

Few months back I began using it again, very sparsely this time. Now I use tweezers and add 2-3 individual balls around things like AR mini, downoi, 5-6 around the Opacus verde sword, Lagenandra, there's probably 10 balls in the middle HC area. Again, this is little single balls of the stuff, not gel caps full. 

I started out the 50 gallon using about 10-12 balls per 6"x6" area. laid down 1/4" of sand to keep them from rolling around, sprinkled in the o+, then capped it off with a couple more inches. Ideally you want it buried as deep as possible, all the way down. 

But yes I highly recommend it, works great.

Re the lighting question: Im not an LED guy, but here is a PAR chart for the Sat + Pro. http://imagizer-cv.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/537/P0j7CI.jpg

On top of a 75 gallon you'll be looking at about 50 PAR directly underneath, much less the further away from center. Having 2 will give you good front to back coverage, but doesnt add much to the overall intensity. The good news is 50 PAR will grow lots of plants, probably most everything I have except for a few of the more demanding stems. And things probably wont color up as well.

But it's always better to start with moderate light levels until you gain a little experience. Lower light is much easier to manage, and forgives mistakes a lot easier. Throw 100 PAR on a tank and things can spiral out of control in a heartbeat.

This tank has around 120 at the substrate fwiw. More than is needed really, 90-100 would be ideal, and still be very "high light"




LRJ said:


> Very interesting. If you were to take these same plants and rank them according to light and CO2 requirements, it seems you would get a very similar list. Do you think that's the case, and if so, do you think this says something about the nature of micro tox?


That is an interesting observation and I did notice it. But frankly Im not sure how much that list is worth to anyone besides me. 

For example I know plenty of people growing Syn belem just fine with full EI micros, or close to it. Other plants too. I see some people's tank and what they are dosing and think how is that even possible?? 

I dont understand why it affects some people this way and not others. There doesnt seem to be a common factor one way or the other, between anyone really. At least none that's been discovered yet.

It boggles my mind!


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> I dont understand why it affects some people this way and not others. There doesnt seem to be a common factor one way or the other, between anyone really.
> 
> It boggles my mind! :icon_eek:


Burr740 do you think it has to do with all the differences in local water chemistry? I have well water that goes through a softener. Kh around 18, and Gh down around zero (add Gh booster). This leads to it's own set of unique considerations. Some plants flat out do not like high kh water. I have to experiment to see what will take and thrive.

I have read that high Kh makes it harder for plants to absorb micros. True or not I have no idea. But I do notice if I cut down on micros, my plants do not react well. Resume regular amount and they perk right up. I dose 3/4 tsp 3 times a week into my 120 gallon (plus 1/2 tsp iron chelate). Probably seems like a lot to you. Going lean in my tank just doesn't work.

Like you said, sometimes it makes no sense at all. Like they used to say when I worked in the Financial industry, "past results are no guarantee of future performance".....or perhaps the old saying "one man's meat is another man's poison" applies here.


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## burr740

Greggz said:


> Burr740 do you think it has to do with all the differences in local water chemistry? I have well water that goes through a softener. Kh around 18, and Gh down around zero (add Gh booster). This leads to it's own set of unique considerations. Some plants flat out do not like high kh water. I have to experiment to see what will take and thrive.
> 
> I have read that high Kh makes it harder for plants to absorb micros. True or not I have no idea. But I do notice if I cut down on micros, my plants do not react well. Resume regular amount and they perk right up. I dose 3/4 tsp 3 times a week into my 120 gallon (plus 1/2 tsp iron chelate). Probably seems like a lot to you. Going lean in my tank just doesn't work.
> 
> Like you said, sometimes it makes no sense at all. Like they used to say when I worked in the Financial industry, "past results are no guarantee of future performance".....or perhaps the old saying "one man's meat is another man's poison" applies here.


Almost has to have something to do with various unique water chemistries. 

In your case with an 18, I can see why you need a lot. (Wow!)

Mine is ~5.5, best I can tell using a calibrated API drop test.

Tom Barr has like 1 or 2 if Im not mistaken. His plants damn sure arent sensitive to micros. @StrungOut has about the same and doses (I believe) close to full EI. @Saxa Tilly has soft water. He doses less than EI but still a lot more than me.

Those are just a couple examples off the top of my head that doesnt really fit with KH being the primary factor.


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## LRJ

burr740 said:


> That is an interesting observation and I did notice it. But frankly Im not sure how much that list is worth to anyone besides me.
> 
> For example I know plenty of people growing Syn belem just fine with full EI micros, or close to it. Other plants too. I see some people's tank and what they are dosing and think how is that even possible??
> 
> I dont understand why it affects some people this way and not others. There doesnt seem to be a common factor one way or the other, between anyone really. At least none that's been discovered yet.
> 
> It boggles my mind!


It's a mystery for sure. I've seen similar issues. My tap water is from the Floridian Aquifer system - EI level micros stunt ludwigia red and limno aromatica over night. I still haven't figured out what works.

There's definitely a common factor though, an underlying mechanism. Just nobody knows what it is. Not sure the hobby has the resources or patience to figure it out either. You've clearly found the levels that work for your tanks (a shockingly narrow range). So I guess the lesson is to be meticulous with trial and error in your own setup until you find the equilibrium for your specific set of conditions.


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## DennisSingh

burr740 said:


> Almost has to have something to do with various unique water chemistries.
> 
> In your case with an 18, I can see why you need a lot. (Wow!)
> 
> Mine is ~5.5, best I can tell using a calibrated API drop test.
> 
> Tom Barr has like 1 or 2 if Im not mistaken. His plants damn sure arent sensitive to micros. @StrungOut has about the same and doses (I believe) close to full EI. @Saxa Tilly has soft water. He doses less than EI but still a lot more than me.
> 
> Those are just a couple examples off the top of my head that doesnt really fit with KH being the primary factor.


I used to via nilocg 's liquid ferts. Now I just dose urea and iron irregularly. With belem I think its more about the soil over water nutrients. Eco-complete, I've never done, as seen here is doable.


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## APynckel

Burr,

Just so you know, I'm using this tank as inspiration for my new noob 30 gallon dutch cube. I love the color contrasts that you've obtained in your tank. Any plants you'd recommend for a beginner from your assortment?


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## burr740

APynckel said:


> Burr,
> 
> Just so you know, I'm using this tank as inspiration for my new noob 30 gallon dutch cube. I love the color contrasts that you've obtained in your tank. Any plants you'd recommend for a beginner from your assortment?


Thanks, that is a very nice compliment.

Just off the top of my head, some easy plants that should do well in most water, assuming good conditions otherwise

Foreground/midground:

Hemianthus Callitrichoides (HC)
Staurogyne repens
Glossostigma
Pogosteman helferi (downoi)
Blyxa japonica
Hygrophila corymbosa var. compact
Alternanthera reineckii 'mini' (AR mini)
Lobelia cardinalis 'small form'

Stems:

Wisteria
Bacopas
Cambomba
Hygrophila corymbosa 
Ammania sp bonsai (aka true rotala indica) - be great for a small Dutch
Various Ludwigias and rotalas
Mayaca fluviatilis
Limnophila aromatica
Proserpinaca pautris (Mermaid weed) - Even though this plant gives me a fit, it is generally considered pretty easy.

And there tons more out there too, just have to search around little bit.

When it comes plant selection, you want contrasting shapes, sizes, and colors. Avoid using multiple similar looking species, especially considering the size of your tank. Probably best to stick with only a couple of really reds, then maybe a couple pinkish, yellows, mixed in with a few nice green species.

Try to avoid using all fine leaved plants, pick at least one nice green with larger leaves.

Also just checked out your journal, I love those Marineland tanks with black silicone!


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## burr740

Will post an update with some new pics soon. Not much happening. Plants have rebounded well back around .015 csmb, .01 dtpa, .01 gluc, spiked with enough Mn for a 3:1 Fe ratio. Roughly EI macros, P around 2 ppm 

Also have some big news on the horizon!


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## Greggz

burr740 said:


> .015 csmb, .01 dtpa, .01 gluc, spiked with enough Mn for a 3:1 Fe ratio. Roughly EI macros, P around 2 ppm
> 
> Also have some big news on the horizon!


I was reading this and was thinking to most people this must sound like a foreign language, or someone speaking in tongues!!:grin2::grin2:

And looking forward to the big news!


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## burr740

Here's a small hint...











Unrelated...


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## Immortal1

Your getting LED lights....
As for "unrelated", i would love to have some "unrelated", LOL (very nice)


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## Mathman

*A 75 Gallon Journey -&gt;*

Burr,

You are dosing ~9 ppm Nitrates 3x a week - have you ever tested for nitrates? If so, what test kit? Or are you not concerned about the levels of nitrates just as long as you keep up with weekly water changes?


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## burr740

Mathman said:


> Burr,
> 
> You are dosing ~9 ppm Nitrates 3x a week - have you ever tested for nitrates? If so, what test kit? Or are you not concerned about the levels of nitrates just as long as you keep up with weekly water changes?


Used to test N and P using API drops, just for an idea where the levels were at. Havent tested in a long time and dont really worry about it. Total in the water column probably stays in the 30-40 range if I had to guess.

All my tanks get about 7.5-8 ppm, 2-3x between water changes. I dosed 5 for a while which did alright, but a little higher does better. While not bad at 5 ppm, plants were generally weaker, and paler than they are at EI levels.

Also have tried 3 ppm doses before. That didnt last long. Ive not seen a single positive thing by reducing macros below EI. Not one thing, ever. 

Recently ran the 50 for 7 weeks dosing 10/2/10 N/P/K just as experiment to see if higher macros had any adverse affects. Specifically certain Rotalas rumored to be macro sensitive, macs and sunset, etc. Couldnt tell a difference, if anything plants looked slightly better. So Ive concluded that those rumors are hogwash....at least for me personally

Generally I stay around 8 or so for N and total K, P around 2. For whatever reason my plants seem to appreciate slightly higher P, greens are greener. It also keeps the minor gsa away, which I tend to get at the 1.3 EI dose



Immortal1 said:


> Your getting LED lights....


LOL no. The news is much bigger than that. 

LEDS...really? We call that blasphemy round these parts! :red_mouth

There is a difference to be seen in the pic, a small indication of something bigger to come. I wonder if anyone will spot what it is....


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## LRJ

burr740 said:


> LOL no. The news is much bigger than that.
> 
> LEDS...really? We call that blasphemy round these parts! :red_mouth
> 
> There is a difference to be seen in the pic, a small indication of something bigger to come. I wonder if anyone will spot what it is....


Six bulbs, weren't you running four previously? Bigger tank on the way?


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## Mathman

Great Burr...

Basically one should stick to the recommended dose for EI and just alter the micros to meet the needs of your tank. In doing so, there's no need to test nitrates and/or phosphate levels in the water. Thanks.


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## burr740

LRJ said:


> Six bulbs, weren't you running four previously? Bigger tank on the way?


DING! We have a winner!

It's a new 6 bulb light.....to go on this new 120 gal tank :nerd:










48x24x24 Marineland with the black silicone. (those glass tops came with, I wont be using them) 

It will replace the 75. Plan is for basically the same tank, just with a bigger footprint. Similar layout, plants, etc.

Probably be another month at least before it's set up. Just getting things together for it now. 

In the meantime I couldnt resist putting the new light over the 75, anxious to play with bulb combos. Have it raised higher than the old one so PAR is about the same.


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## Immortal1

Very nice! Will be very interested to see how this turns out. The extra depth will be nice. The extra height - I can see an advantage to that as well.


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## Mathman

Show us your fixture buddy!


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## burr740

Mathman said:


> Show us your fixture buddy!


https://www.hydrofarm.com/p/FLP46


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## LRJ

burr740 said:


> 48x24x24 Marineland with the black silicone. (those glass tops came with, I wont be using them)
> 
> It will replace the 75. Plan is for basically the same tank, just with a bigger footprint. Similar layout, plants, etc.
> 
> Probably be another month at least before it's set up. Just getting things together for it now.
> 
> In the meantime I couldnt resist putting the new light over the 75, anxious to play with bulb combos. Have it raised higher than the old one so PAR is about the same.


Looking forward to seeing the new build take shape. You going to sump it up?


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## burr740

LRJ said:


> Looking forward to seeing the new build take shape. You going to sump it up?


Nah, it's going to have 2 canisters. Would like to do a sump one day, but Ive never ran one before, and my goal here is for as smooth of a transition as possible, without too many new learning curves to deal with. 

Already have the 2nd filter running on the 75 with the flow cut way down just to cycle. Went with the Aquatop 500 UV. This is the slightly more expensive version of the Sunsun 304B, which I always really liked. 

From what I understand, it's like the difference between a name brand television from Wal-mart and the same TV form an electronics store. The Wal-mart version has cheaper internal parts, which is why they sell for less. 

Using the 75 as a guinea pig, think I have the flow mapped out pretty good with the Aquatop on one end, and the Hydor 600 on the other.

One output on the front right, pointing left. The other output in back left, pointing right. This creates one big circular motion throughout the tank. Along with the Koralia 425 somewhere as a compliment.

This is the plan for now, at least


----------



## LRJ

burr740 said:


> Using the 75 as a guinea pig, think I have the flow mapped out pretty good with the Aquatop on one end, and the Hydor 600 on the other.
> 
> One output on the front right, pointing left. The other output in back left, pointing right. This creates one big circular motion throughout the tank. Along with the Koralia 425 somewhere as a compliment.


Will you add a second reactor then, for more even CO2 distribution? Sorry so many questions. I just added a second canister on my tank, so I'm working out similar flow/distribution issues, albeit on a much smaller scale.


----------



## burr740

LRJ said:


> Will you add a second reactor then, for more even CO2 distribution? Sorry so many questions. I just added a second canister on my tank, so I'm working out similar flow/distribution issues, albeit on a much smaller scale.


For now Im not going to split the CO2, think one should be enough on a 48" tank. Flow is going to be crazy, both filters will need cutting down a good bit.

I am building a new reactor though, this time out of 3" pipe. Something like this, with CO2 entering at "point 2"










Will test it out on the 75 first in case something needs changing.


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## MaroMan

Way to go on stepping it up to the larger tank! That will be great to have the extra room for additional plants! Looking forward to how the new light and tank setup turn out!! Good Luck!


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## APynckel

24x24x48" 120g's are the bees knees. Though if I went that route, I'd be going back to a salt reef again. No better profile for stacking liverock for a solid SPS wall. You should be very happy with it! Can't wait to see pics.


----------



## burr740

Thanks guys ^ 

Made this on request for another user, figured I might as well post it here too. Pic is from a couple months back -










1. Staurogyne repens
2. Hygrophila araguaia
3. Lobelia cardinalis 'small form'
4.Hemianthus callitrichoides (HC aka Dwarf baby Tears)
5. Pogosteman helferi (Downoi)
6. Alternanthera reineckii 'mini' (AR mini)
7. Hygrophila corymbosa var. 'compact' (aka Compact corymbosa, Compact hygro)
8. Lagenandra meeboldi 'red' 
9. Syngonanthus belem
10. Proserpinaca palustris (Mermaid weed)
11. Echinodorus Opacus verde
12. Staurogyne 'purple'
13. *missing*
14. Ammania sp bonsai (aka True rotala indica)
15. Limnophila rugosa
16. Ludwigia sp red (aka super red or super red mini)
17. Mini pellia
18. Acmella repens (likely, been some recent debate)
19. Rotala ramosoir 'sunset'
20. Limnophila sp belem
21. Mayaca fluviatilis
22. Limnophila aromatica
23. Persicaria sp "Sao paulo'

* Grassy blade in the front right is Cypress helferi


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## burr740

There is a new hypothesis in town re Fe and micros. This is going to be a long and rambling post. So consider yourself warned! 


Recall the results when PM tested my water , a major thing that stood out was the Fe level - .02 ppm. This was surprising because the day before taking the samples I'd dosed .35 ppm, .125 from dtpa, .125 gluconate, and .1 ppm from csmb. Also did the same two days before that.

Let's say the gluc only stuck around for a few hours and was all gone. That still leaves .225 ppm of dtpa dosed the day before. Yet the test showed .02??

In the linked post I theorized possibly the high P levels caused it to precipitate, or the UV, which at the time I was running 24/7. In the end I chose to ignore the possibility of P being the culprit and blamed the UV. Ever since then the UV only gets ran for a day or so whenever Ive moved things around or otherwise disturbed the substrate much. And for the past 3 months no UV at all because the Sunsun crapped out.


Also recall how recently certain things have been looking more and more Fe deficient. There was a discussion a few pages back with pics of Syn and aromatica. This is no surprise considering how little I dose. However, it is not as simple as adding more Fe, either alone or via csmb - never has been.

So fast forward to about a week ago. After the 10/2/10 NPK thing in the 50, I decided to amp the P up even further in the 75, from 2 ppm 3x week, to 2.5 ppm 3x.

The aromatica was already pale, to the point of being almost white. By the end of the week with higher P, 3 out of 6 stems had proceeded to melt in the center of the tops. 2 downois did the same thing. Downoi has always been a very resilient plant for me, so this was unexpected.

So here is the new hypothesis: *Uber high P levels precipitating all my Fe, or the vast majority.*

The sub plot: *IF* high P levels are precipitating the Fe, *Then* it stands to reason it could also be precipitating the other chelates in csmb. Keep in mind Ive dosed higher than EI P for...pretty much the whole time.

CSMB is reportedly 

1.5% Magnesium (Mg) (chelated)
0.10% Copper (Cu)
7.0% Iron (chelated edta)
2.0% Maganese (Mn) ( chelated)
0.06% Molybedenum(MO)
0.40% Zinc (Zn) (chelated).


What if one or more of these other chelated nutrients are being zapped as fast as Fe? I would imagine that would cause big problems. One or two things missing could make something else toxic, or just cause a straight up deficiency.

Could this possibly be why my tanks have been so "sensitive"??

In spite of everything, I still resist accepting the whole micro-tox phenomena. I feel like there is a correlation somewhere that Im just not seeing. 

Because for one thing, if csmb was "toxic' at these very small levels Ive been playing with - then it would be toxic for everyone, especially folks dosing closer to full EI levels. 

Gasoline is flammable. This is true everywhere, from Alabama to Alaska to freakin Albania. Put a match to it and it will ignite.

If csmb was actually "toxic" - in and of itself - then it would be toxic for everyone. Not just me, or the unlucky few who seem to have issues. 

*** Im not saying less than EI is not better in many cases, or some plants do better with less...or whatever. Just that it is not supposed to be such a sensitive matter, as it appears to be in my case - teetering on a such a fine line between deficiency and apparent 'toxicity.


So with all this in mind here's what Ive done, starting a few days ago. 

First I broke out the N and P liquid drop tests, both were off the charts, as expected.

70% water change

Skip macros.

Dosed micros 3 days in a row @ .01 csmb, and .0125 from both dtpa and gluconate. Total Fe .035. Yes, 3 days in a row, with no macros.

Day 4 another 70% water change. Micros again. No macros. 

At this point P levels should be hovering around zero or maybe a ppm or so. N down in the 5 range or thereabouts (not that Im concerned with N, it just happens to be a long for the ride)

Day 5, resume macros @ 5/1/5 NPK, plus another micro dose.

Well guess what? There have been no immediate symptoms of "toxicity", even after 5 straight daily doses. Global pearling is good, if not a little better, which is always a good sign. Few things have perked up, colored up a bit.

The Fe deficient symptoms present in various species are slowly improving. Nothing drastic, this may take a while, but early signs are positive. Only a couple species are obvious, but I suspect many other are sitting on the brink, like the Downoi seemed to be. 


*Also I find this hilariously ironic considering how I just wrote an expose on the wonders of keeping high P levels, lol. Guess that really shows what I know! *


Either way, stay tuned because we may be getting somewhere now...


----------



## vinizuh

Keeping a close eye on this thread as I'm also struggling with my dosing. BTW great work on this whole journal, i really enjoyed going through all of it, and a lot made sense with my situation. The colors on your plants look way better than mine. I'm guessing the blue and reds on your bulbs make them pop much better compared to the white light from my Finnex LED fixtures. I might look into T5's again.


----------



## Greggz

Very interesting. I look forward to seeing the updates and how your theories play out.

By the way, you will probably find little sympathy for your struggles. Your tank in crisis probably looks better than 99% of the tanks out there, including my own.

And if you could some time, I'd like to see how much you are dosing in tsp/tbsp's. I understand you use other formulas, but I'd like to see how it compares to what I am doing (I'm a simpleton and I just measure dry ferts with tsp/tbsp's).


----------



## jcdelarohe

Interesting approach!
For me, edta seems to be the culprit, and I know, I know millions from this galaxy and others dose csm+b or miller etc. With no issues, for me even adding API tap water conditioner (which contains edta) to bind heavy metals; caused droopy leaves and overall poor health specially in mermaid weed ,That was just a shot in the dark for me since I grew frustrated with it. (I use RO/DI water) but thought my system was allowing chlorine to pass through. 
I switched and noticed a change when using seachem traces and dtpa for iron . It took about a week after water changes and lightly vacuuming the brown residue from substrate. 
So I decided to buy a milligram scale and the micros in the sulfate form vs. edta and a separate mixture of dtpa.
So many variables in this hobby.
Congratulations on your new tank. Good job on keeping this post alive and providing detailed info. 
I thought I was alone in this micro ordeal. Lol











On the green side of the fence


----------



## Saxa Tilly

Ok - random thoughts, in no particular direction:

- 2 ppm Phosphate is not astronomical. Many people maintain this on a regular basis, with little or no issues. 
- Going from 2 to 2.5 ppm is not significant IMO to topple things dramatically. The aromatica tops may have had it coming even at 2 ppm. 
- If your test kits were calibrated and your numbers are right (both N and P off the charts) despite your WC schedule, then I suspect that something else is limiting and there has been very little N and P uptake. WC and uptake should otherwise reduce it. 
- The limiting factor could be Fe or one of the other traces. 
- I don't know if the sensitivity that you notice is actually toxicity, but rather some imbalance or limiting trace element due to low dosing levels. 

I think this approach has merit. Here are some options:

1. Since you suspect the sensitivity is being driven by excess P precipitating traces, then it is an easy test. Basically, keep doing what you're doing. This will allow you to add higher Fe + traces to get rid of white tops and not melt plants. 

2. You could keep the tank P-limited with a 10-1-10 or even 10-0.5-10 macro dose. If you then find that the plants are showing P deficiency symptoms, you can pulse with 2 or 3 ppm for a few hours before a WC. P gets sucked up quickly and plants can live off reserves until the next pulse day. It is irrelevant if the pulse causes trace precipitation since you are resetting with WC anyway. 

3. You could also try a commercial fertilizer like Thrive for a month or two to see if that solves the headache. It's a pretty well beta-tested formula that I'm happy with and others have found success with. As an all-in-one, I suspect it is somewhat low P to begin with. So this formula might be perfect for your situation.

Personally, I love it when I have a light bulb moment and find a new rabbit hole to go down. YMMV.


----------



## burr740

vinizuh said:


> Keeping a close eye on this thread as I'm also struggling with my dosing. BTW great work on this whole journal, i really enjoyed going through all of it, and a lot made sense with my situation. The colors on your plants look way better than mine. I'm guessing the blue and reds on your bulbs make them pop much better compared to the white light from my Finnex LED fixtures. I might look into T5's again.


Thanks. Im glad my journal has been of some use to you. I like reading where people have had problems and then solved them. We learn a lot more from that than just having pics where everything is in top form. Although the latter is great too!

The T5's definitely play a big role in my colors. Huge, HUGE difference than an LED with all 6500Ks.

If you are struggling with your dosing, this may help. It is probably the best write-up on EI that Ive ever seen. It is from 2008, so there are still terms like watts per gallon used (WPG). And apparently there was still great reservations about even using dry ferts. It is a really good explanation though

* Posting this for everyone

EI DOSING USING DRY SALTS | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Another good read about nutrients and algae. 

Why dont nutrients cause algae? | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Pay special attn to 'ceg4048' posts. In fact, reading them all twice would not be a waste of time.





Greggz said:


> Very interesting. I look forward to seeing the updates and how your theories play out.
> 
> By the way, you will probably find little sympathy for your struggles. Your tank in crisis probably looks better than 99% of the tanks out there, including my own.
> 
> And if you could some time, I'd like to see how much you are dosing in tsp/tbsp's. I understand you use other formulas, but I'd like to see how it compares to what I am doing (I'm a simpleton and I just measure dry ferts with tsp/tbsp's).


Well the grass is always greener... but thanks! 

You can use online calculators to figure what you're asking. Gonna explain it to possibly benefit somebody else, will post the amounts in a sec.

Fwiw I make solutions for everything using a 500 ml containers - 20 ml dose for macros, and 5-10 ml dose for micros and Fe. 

I use Zorfox's download version. I think the online version no longer exists. Here is the only one that I'm sure about online these days. Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator

It gets really specific with the tsp measurements. In most cases it's fine to leave off the final 1/64 etc, or....just heap it up a little bit. That is unless you are like me and forced to be entirely too anal about it. In that case youre better off just dropping $20 on some digital scales. 


Using rotalabutterfly -

I calculate for 60 gallons of water. The tank actually holds 62. 

Enter the tank size
Select DIY

More fields will appear

For "I am dosing with" -> select a compound from the drop down window

For "I am calculating for" -> hit the drop down arrow and select "dose to reach a target"

Enter the target ppm. Then hit "calculate" 

Results -

KNO3 at 5ppm

To reach your target of *5ppm NO3* you will need to add *1.85 grams (equivalent to 1/4 tsp + 1/16 tsp + 1/32 tsp + 1/64 tsp )* KNO3 to your 60gal aquarium

KNO3 at 10 ppm

To reach your target of *10ppm NO3* you will need to add *3.7 grams (equivalent to 1/2 tsp + 1/8 tsp + 1/16 tsp + 1/32 tsp + 1/64 tsp )* KNO3 to your 60gal aquarium

KH2PO4 at 1 ppm

To reach your target of *1ppm PO4* you will need to add *325 milligrams (equivalent to 1/16 tsp )* KH2PO4 to your 60gal aquarium


CSMB at .01 ppm Fe

To reach your target of *0.01ppm Fe* you will need to add *35 milligrams (equivalent to less than 1/64 tsp)* Plantex CSM+B to your 60gal aquarium

CSMB at .02 ppm Fe

To reach your target of *0.02ppm Fe* you will need to add *70 milligrams (equivalent to less than 1/64 tsp)* Plantex CSM+B to your 60gal aquarium

Fe DTPA 11%

To reach your target of *0.0125ppm Fe* you will need to add *26 milligrams (equivalent to less than 1/64 tsp)* DTPA Fe (11%) to your 60gal aquarium


The gluconate is Flourish Iron. To figure that you can select "premixed" instead of "DIY" then repeat the previous steps, then do the math for the container size and the number of doses.



jcdelarohe said:


> Interesting approach!
> For me, edta seems to be the culprit, and I know, I know millions from this galaxy and others dose csm+b or miller etc. With no issues, for me even adding API tap water conditioner (which contains edta) to bind heavy metals; caused droopy leaves and overall poor health specially in mermaid weed ,That was just a shot in the dark for me since I grew frustrated with it. (I use RO/DI water) but thought my system was allowing chlorine to pass through.
> I switched and noticed a change when using seachem traces and dtpa for iron . It took about a week after water changes and lightly vacuuming the brown residue from substrate.
> So I decided to buy a milligram scale and the micros in the sulfate form vs. edta and a separate mixture of dtpa.
> So many variables in this hobby.
> Congratulations on your new tank. Good job on keeping this post alive and providing detailed info.
> I thought I was alone in this micro ordeal. Lol


Nice tank!

Interesting observation re edta, will keep that in mind. I went back to Flourish Comp for a while, this was a few months ago. Couldnt tell much difference really



Saxa Tilly said:


> Ok - random thoughts, in no particular direction:
> 
> - 2 ppm Phosphate is not astronomical. Many people maintain this on a regular basis, with little or no issues.
> - Going from 2 to 2.5 ppm is not significant IMO to topple things dramatically. The aromatica tops may have had it coming even at 2 ppm.
> - If your test kits were calibrated and your numbers are right (both N and P off the charts) despite your WC schedule, then I suspect that something else is limiting and there has been very little N and P uptake. WC and uptake should otherwise reduce it.
> - The limiting factor could be Fe or one of the other traces.
> - I don't know if the sensitivity that you notice is actually toxicity, but rather some imbalance or limiting trace element due to low dosing levels.
> 
> I think this approach has merit. Here are some options:
> 
> 1. Since you suspect the sensitivity is being driven by excess P precipitating traces, then it is an easy test. Basically, keep doing what you're doing. This will allow you to add higher Fe + traces to get rid of white tops and not melt plants.
> 
> 2. You could keep the tank P-limited with a 10-1-10 or even 10-0.5-10 macro dose. If you then find that the plants are showing P deficiency symptoms, you can pulse with 2 or 3 ppm for a few hours before a WC. P gets sucked up quickly and plants can live off reserves until the next pulse day. It is irrelevant if the pulse causes trace precipitation since you are resetting with WC anyway.
> 
> 3. You could also try a commercial fertilizer like Thrive for a month or two to see if that solves the headache. It's a pretty well beta-tested formula that I'm happy with and others have found success with. As an all-in-one, I suspect it is somewhat low P to begin with. So this formula might be perfect for your situation.
> 
> Personally, I love it when I have a light bulb moment and find a new rabbit hole to go down. YMMV.


Thanks for chiming in man

I agree 2 ppm P is not out of this world. But on the other hand, anyone dosing this much is also probably dosing a lot more traces than me. Even something like half EI would (probably?) overcome some of the precipitation effect. At the levels Im dosing - and have been for a while - a little precipitation is all it would take to throw things way out of whack.

Going from 2 to 2.5 also shouldnt be a major deal. Unless the 2 already had things in a borderline state. This is what I suspect may have been going on for quite some time. At least I hope so because it could explain a lot.

Im going to make a new macro solution with .05 P (instead of 1). Then like you said, pulse P down the road if necessary.

Thrive? Eh...maybe someday. Right now Im having too much fun trying to figure it out for myself!


----------



## Greggz

Burr740 was wondering if I can pick your brain for a second. I know there is no right or wrong answer, but I would be curious as your opinion.

It seems many of the tanks here really focus on fauna, and have little to no bio load from fish. My tank is fully stocked with Rainbow's, and that is my primary focus. As I look at your numbers you talk about (kno3 10ppm, kh2po4 2ppm), I can easily surpass these numbers with no dosing at all, just from keeping and feeding my Rainbows.

Right now I dose about 1/2 EI. And things are going well. I get what I consider to be good growth, and I have to trim my stems pretty often as they get to the top of the tank. I get a little algae, only on old growth, and it's nothing that bothers me much. 

I'm thinking of cutting my ferts drastically for a few weeks just to see what happens. What do you think? If you were getting to or surpassing your targets with just the bio-load, do you think it would be better just to not dose at all?


----------



## burr740

@Greggz, from what I understand, fish food/poop will provide some N in the form of urea and NH4 (or maybe NH3 comes first, not sure) Also will add some P and micros. Not necessarily the full range of micros, but some.

Fish provide very little in the way of K or Fe, however. So you will certainly need to keep those two up. And micros in general, simply because I dont know exactly which ones you get from fish alone.

So if anything, you could slowly reduce the N and P dosing, possibly micros sans Fe, and keep an eye out for unhappy plants.

Also note that when Ive said 10 ppm KNO3, 1 ppm KH2PO4, etc, these are single doses unless otherwise noted. These are not weekly or global amounts.

Another thing to keep in mind is liquid drop tests are grossly inaccurate. This wouldnt be so bad if it was linear, but they can be all over the place. And nitrogen tests are notorious for reading high.

So unless youve compared them to a know solution, eg tested a sample with exactly 20 ppm total N content and compared it......about all they are good for is showing if you have some, none, or a whole lot or something.

My advice is dont do anything drastic (not that I always take this advice myself) and if anything, only do one nutrient at a time. Slowly reduce one thing and watch the plants for the first sign of unhappiness, then raise it back up some. Move on to the next thing.

Also remember that global nutrient requirements are going to change as plant mass increases/decreases. What is enough today may not be enough in 2-3 weeks when growth has tripled. Therein lies the benefit of keeping non-limiting levels available at all times.

Rolling with more than enough N or P wont cause any problems within reasonable amounts. 

Frankly it doesnt sound like anything is broke here...not sure it's a good idea to set about trying to "fix" it.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> @Greggz,Frankly it doesnt sound like anything is broke here...not sure it's a good idea to set about trying to "fix" it.


Thanks for taking the time to respond. I do calibrate my test kits, so I think they are reasonably accurate (or a good guess anyway).

If you want to see a funny story about that, read the following (posts 1 & 7).

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...all-ei-fertilizers-have-same-ingredients.html

I agree with what you said. But just to experiment, I am going to try cutting down on N & P and see how things react. Maybe I can get by with much lower N & P, and maybe plants will be even happier? I will find out. And leaving well enough alone has never been one of my strong suits.

As to your ain't broke don't fix it quote above, I know that doesn't apply to you or we wouldn't have the myriad models of Franken-co2 reactors that you build every week!!!:grin2::grin2::grin2:


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Thanks for taking the time to respond. I do calibrate my test kits, so I think they are reasonably accurate (or a good guess anyway).
> 
> If you want to see a funny story about that, read the following (posts 1 & 7).
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...all-ei-fertilizers-have-same-ingredients.html
> 
> I agree with what you said. But just to experiment, I am going to try cutting down on N & P and see how things react. Maybe I can get by with much lower N & P, and maybe plants will be even happier? I will find out. And leaving well enough alone has never been one of my strong suits.
> 
> As to your ain't broke don't fix it quote above, I know that doesn't apply to you or we wouldn't have the myriad models of Franken-co2 reactors that you build every week!!!:grin2::grin2::grin2:


Oh wow, had not seen that thread! Good job figuring it out. 

Hmm, I wonder if my csmb is actually muratic acid...

And yes, the hypocrisy of my previous advice did not escape me. 

Interested to see how the fert experiment works. Hopefully you'll write about it in your journal.


----------



## burr740

Lowering P is really paying off. This past week, it's like a light has come on. Growth has exploded, almost every plant is looking better than it has in a while.

Fe deficiency symptoms are all but gone. Global pearling has at least doubled. Starts now within an hour after lights on, used to take 2-3 hours.

This past week has been more of a regular dosing routine, macros/micros 3x week on alternating days, no more daily micros/Fe. 

Macros

KNO3 - 6 ppm
KH2PO4 - .75

Micros

CSMB - .015 ppm Fe
Fe DTPA - .01 ppm
Fe gluconate - .01 ppm

10 ppm K2SO4, 10 ppm Mg at water change

Ditched the Mn for the time being. If the current hypothesis is right - that most of the Fe was getting canceled out due to the extra high P levels - then a too high Fe to Mn ratio shouldnt have been a problem. Unless of course the Mn chelate in csmb was also being affected....but that's just too much to try and wrap my brain around at this point. Bottom line is adding it now would be another unknown.


Here's some pics 


Several things to notice in this one










^ The aromatica is rebounding great. All but two of these are small side shoots coming off the leftover stumps from when the tops melted 2 weeks ago.

Also if you look close at the Persicaria and Acmella, a couple sets of leaves down you can see the remnants of Fe deficiency. Then notice the top couple sets of leaves have corrected.











^ Syns doing well again...what's left of them. The Mermaid weed exploded initially, then started to suffer again on the tail end of dosing micros and Fe every day. Frankly I just need to toss these scraps and acquire some new healthy specimens, ones that haven't been through the mill like these.










^ Yesterday replanted the right side of the foreground from the Opacus over. Probably be another month or so before Im ready to start the 120. In the meantime gonna keep working on this tank like business as usual, and try to make a presentable scape out of things. Will redo all the stem groups over the next week or two.











^ Did all this HC out of a 2"x3" piece of sod from the previous carpet. Small clumps, small clumps, small clumps. The smaller the better.

Brought back a few Erio vietnams. The lagenandra has gained a lot of height, there was about 4-5 inches of stem before the leaves started. This created sort of a dark void between the HC which I didnt like (it's more obvious in person). Needed something between them, we'll see how the erios look 











^ Swapped the AR mini for the variegated version. Grew these out from one tiny little plant, probably 3 -4 months ago. So far havent been able to get the leaves perfectly flat like the regular. Not even sure they will go flat like that. All the pics Ive seen have undulation. Sent one to @Saxa Tilly , if anybody can grow it flat he can. 

In front is a young Erio breviscapum, speaking of Sax, who gave me a few several months ago. Actually many of the current species were gifts from him, the laganandra, sp red, rugosa, acmella, mayaca, and probably a couple more Im forgetting. Thanks again my friend!











The Opacus verde continues to amaze me. Ive yet to prune a single leaf off this plant. Kinda hard to see in the pic, some smaller, old original leaves on the bottom pressed down hard against the substrate....not a spec of algae to be found. I freakin love this plant!


And finally, here's what's left of the Sunset. All the rest either died or got yanked. 











These few are growing well now. Even the two that are still badly twisted are healthy and growing, pearl like crazy, but it's looking like the tops arent going to get right.

Not sweating it though, still have a few nice looking ones in the 50 to replace them with 












This isnt "water change pearling", it's mid week


----------



## Immortal1

Impressive as always!


----------



## tigerterror

Tank is a 1st rate stunner!


----------



## Saxa Tilly

Wow - the color on the Persicaria hurts my eyes! Dang! 

What's up with the Sunset in the 75? Was the drama before or after the low-P routine?


----------



## burr740

^ Thanks guys



Saxa Tilly said:


> Wow - the color on the Persicaria hurts my eyes! Dang!


Has a lot to do with the light. The colors really popped before, but now with 2 extra bulbs - Wavepoint UGs - its just insane.

Those UGs are a very strange bulb, extremely red and extremely blue. By itself is a weird purple that is very unpleasant to look at, 6500Ks alone will not balance it out.











The middle four bulbs are exactly what I had before, the Wavepoints are on each end. 










From right to left, which is front to back

Wavepoint UG
Truelumen Flora
Plantmax 3000K
ATI Purple
Zoo-Med Ultra Sun
Wavepoint UG



Saxa Tilly said:


> What's up with the Sunset in the 75? Was the drama before or after the low-P routine?


Oh way before. Posted about it maybe 3 months ago. It first happened after a bigger dose of macros. That's what actually sparked the higher macros in the 50 experiment, but the focus was on N more than anything.

It continued to struggle at like 8/2/8 NPK, did better and worse for a couple of months, was fooling with micros a lot then too. Plants in the 50 didnt seem to mind. The 75 must have something built up...or something, which the 50 doesnt have. The tanks run similar, both like basically the same thing, but the 75 is more sensitive.

Then it took a severe downturn a couple weeks ago after bumping P up to 2.5. Same time Fe deficiency symptoms in other things accelerated, the aromatica and a few downoi tops went so far as to melt a little

All of which caused me to remember when PM tested my water and Fe levels were surprisingly low, a .25 dose went to .02 in about 20 hours. Something was zapping it all. Thought about P then, but decided it must be the UV.

During all this time since, it never occurred to me that P levels could be influencing things to such a degree. Seems like now it certainly was.


----------



## Saxa Tilly

Any thoughts on PAR at substrate and near the tops of stems towards the back?


----------



## burr740

Saxa Tilly said:


> Any thoughts on PAR at substrate and near the tops of stems towards the back?


Using a Hoppy 2015 meter











Whatever plant the number is sitting on, is the approximate position the measurement was taken, ie 184 is on top of the stump, 197 is against the back glass, 216 is out a little bit

Fixture is ~14" above the tank. Could easily hit 150-160 at the substrate with different bulbs, a couple more 6500Ks for example. 

A lot of these reds arent very high par bulbs. Except for the 3000K, it's the baddest beast in there.

Had the 4 bulb unit 9" above the tank, PAR was about the same. Really dont need quite this much, gonna aim for about 100 at the sub on the new tank.


----------



## Greggz

I hope you don't get tired of the compliments, as the tank is stunning as usual.

I'm sure I am not the only one who is inspired by your beautiful presentations.

Looking forward to seeing what you do with the new tank.


----------



## ua hua

That plantmax bulb looks like no other bulb I have seen. Is it really that yellow? I have seen some Agromax bulbs on eBay and was curious about the 3000k bulb and the uv-a plus bulb. I may have to get those just to try out. I have some of the wavepoints that I have been waiting to use since I can't find uvl red sun bulbs anymore. Your tank looks really nice by the way and although I'm not a huge fan of echindorus I like the Opacus.


----------



## burr740

Thanks @Greggz, means a lot!



ua hua said:


> That plantmax bulb looks like no other bulb I have seen. Is it really that yellow? I have seen some Agromax bulbs on eBay and was curious about the 3000k bulb and the uv-a plus bulb. I may have to get those just to try out. I have some of the wavepoints that I have been waiting to use since I can't find uvl red sun bulbs anymore. Your tank looks really nice by the way and although I'm not a huge fan of echindorus I like the Opacus.


Ive also been curious about those uv-a bulbs. From all the reviews Ive seen, the consensus seems to be split between snake oil and the greatest thing ever. 

Yes, the 3000K is really that yellow. In the hydroponic world it is the common "red" bulb...but make no mistake, from a color rendition standpoint, there's nothing red about it. By itself it looks awful, about like a standard warm white incandescent, except that it is very, very bright (par wise) and the plants do love it.

It's great in combination though. Ive had one in the mix for probably a couple of years now. Works really well to tone down heavy blues like the ATI purple or even a blue actinic, which I also ran for a while with good results. It definitely helps that crazy Wavepoint. I like that bulb too, just needs a lot of warm mixed in to soften it up.

Thanks for the compliments, and nice to see you around again. It's been a while!


----------



## TropicalAquarist

Your tank is amazing, and I love how you explain everything and make it simple to understand. I'm a low tech guy, and planning on a high tech tank soon, and the information in here is very helpful!

Very interesting to see the PAR in the tank!

How often do you exchange the bulbs?

Is there any livestock in the tank?


----------



## burr740

TropicalAquarist said:


> Your tank is amazing, and I love how you explain everything and make it simple to understand. I'm a low tech guy, and planning on a high tech tank soon, and the information in here is very helpful!
> 
> Very interesting to see the PAR in the tank!
> 
> How often do you exchange the bulbs?
> 
> Is there any livestock in the tank?


Thanks for the kind words, and Im gad you found some useful info.

I usually run bulbs until they shoot, or unless one happens to dim out a good bit. It is a myth T5s need replacing every year, not even close. 

That ZM Ultra sun is over two years old, has big black rings on each end, and still within 5% of it's original PAR. TrueLumen Flora is one of my favorite bulbs, cost $10-12 at Dr Fosters Smith. Have one of those on another tank well over two years old. Still holding up fine. If I could only use two kinds of bulbs it would be a 1:1 ratio of TL flora + 6500Ks. Great combo

Flourescents do degrade slightly toward the red spectrum over time. This could be a problem on a reef tank that is reliant on heavy blues for corals. But for freshwater plants, not so much.

Livestock is about 25 neons, 6-8 otos, and probably at least 40-50 fire red cherry shrimp.

Used to have a small school of green cories, took them out because I was afraid they were eating all the baby shrimps.

Havent decided what to put in the 120 yet. Will have shrimps and otos for sure. then a big school of something small, or possibly rummy nose, harlequin rasboras, also intrigued by black neons


----------



## burr740

And thus begins the first negative response from reducing P - early signs of mid-leaf necrosis on the Opacus verde. 

Out of all the damn plants in this tank...it just HAD to be that one!! rofanitylacedtirade:


Came on quick too. Noticed yesterday a just few spots had appeared on 2 leaves. Today, many more spots, and now on 4 leaves.











So this morning I stuck three 00 gel caps packed full of Osmocote+ around it. Tomorrow is macros day, gonna increase P from .75 ppm to 1. 

In 3 days is water change. If the symptoms havent stopped in their tracks by then, will do a "pulse" the night before with 3-4 ppm. May do it sooner depending how things go.


----------



## Silversea

Can't say I ever heard of that as a sign of a phosphate deficiency before? But I guess every plant could react somewhat different.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## Saxa Tilly

Oh man! Parallel woes. 

I think Osmocote gel caps will stop the bleeding for the sword in a few days. But if the sword is out of P, then the other plants are also about to display symptoms. Ludwigia Red sheds leaves and then moves on to stem melt. It does not show mid-rib necrosis with low P. If you're a sick bastard (like me), you could wait and see what the symptoms of P def is for each plant. Zapins may encourage this too.  But you're more normal, so I suspect you will choose a saner path. 

Your 'P precipitates traces' hypothesis is still solid, but you may have swung the pendulum too far. Can you find a happy medium? Probably. 

My approach would be to dose about 5 ppm Phosphate the night before or the morning of your water change day. If the plants absorb nothing, you will be left with 1.5 ppm after a 70% water change. But you plants will suck it up very quickly and you'll probably be left with less than 1 ppm after your water change. I suspect anything < 1 ppm will not precipitate your traces. 

The only unknown to this pulse method is whether the plants suck up all the P they need to live on for a week. I'd wager yes.


----------



## burr740

Silversea said:


> Can't say I ever heard of that as a sign of a phosphate deficiency before? But I guess every plant could react somewhat different.


If let continue, it will soon become big splotches instead of spots, then outright holes. But not pinholes like K.


----------



## Saxa Tilly

Silversea said:


> Can't say I ever heard of that as a sign of a phosphate deficiency before?


It is on large-leaved plants. Necrosis along mid-rib in older leaves. Other plants get dark green old leaves. And yet other smaller-leaved plants simply shed leaves. Somewhat similar to early N deficiency. 

A link from hydroponic folks: How to Detect & Treat Plant Nutrient Deficiency 

Link to my journal where I'm having the same issue ironically, but for different reasons: Going Dutch with Aquasoil - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report


----------



## burr740

Saxa Tilly said:


> Oh man! Parallel woes.
> 
> I think Osmocote gel caps will stop the bleeding for the sword in a few days. But if the sword is out of P, then the other plants are also about to display symptoms. Ludwigia Red sheds leaves and then moves on to stem melt. It does not show mid-rib necrosis with low P. If you're a sick bastard (like me), you could wait and see what the symptoms of P def is for each plant. Zapins may encourage this too.  But you're more normal, so I suspect you will choose a saner path.
> 
> Your 'P precipitates traces' hypothesis is still solid, but you may have swung the pendulum too far. Can you find a happy medium? Probably.
> 
> My approach would be to dose about 5 ppm Phosphate the night before or the morning of your water change day. If the plants absorb nothing, you will be left with 1.5 ppm after a 70% water change. But you plants will suck it up very quickly and you'll probably be left with less than 1 ppm after your water change. I suspect anything < 1 ppm will not precipitate your traces.
> 
> The only unknown to this pulse method is whether the plants suck up all the P they need to live on for a week. I'd wager yes.


Any other plant I would be tempted, but not this one! Those leaves are ruined and Im positively irate about it.

Like you said, I think the O+ will stop the bleeding here. Then we'll see if 1 ppm is enough to sustain the rest of the tank. Probably still do one good pulse before the next wc. May even do it tonight...


----------



## Saxa Tilly

burr740 said:


> Any other plant I would be tempted, but not this one! Those leaves are ruined and Im positively irate about it.


I can understand. You were just raving about how much you liked that plant too. But this is temporary. And there is a silver lining: the necrotic leaves are the best source of phosphate for the plant at the moment. Yes, those leaves are ruined and that sucks, but let the plant mobilize as much phosphate out of those leaves as possible before you trim them.


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## burr740

So 2 days ago, on the night of the last post, added 3 ppm kh2po4 at lights out. Next morning prior to lights on did a 70% WC. 

This has apparently stopped the damage to the Opacus, but another funny thing happened - the sp red did not approve. Almost all the tops crinkled up and turned dark. It was obvious the next morning they werent too happy, but now, 2 days later, they are downright mad.

Look close at the tips and you can see it. 










Not the best comparison pic of this one particular stem, but check out the same stem 2 days ago, before the "pulse", it was stone cold perfect and they all looked like this



>


Now most all of them are shriveled like that





















What does it mean? No idea. Overnight and a day later seems too soon to have caused a deficiency, ie canceling out Fe or traces. Seems more like a toxic effect, but you wouldnt expect that from just more P. Maybe it zapped some of the traces, leaving high concentrations of others which then became toxic?? 

Idk, but it is very interesting. Any ideas? None of the other plants seemed to mind. It's not a big deal. Some of them will get right, others will need cutting off and let the side shoots come in. 


A few random pics of nothing in particular -




























Spot the bba?











Couple little tufts on the bonsai where a stem was cut off. That's Isoetes lacustris on the left against the wall. It was dying on @LRJ and rather than toss it he gave it to me. Thanks man! 

We'll see if it comes back to life. Ive been looking for something tall, thin and straight, that can handle a bit of current for right there. This plant would be perfect.


----------



## Saxa Tilly

I am willing to bet that the Ludwigia Red symptoms are not phosphate-induced trace deficiency. Too soon for that. 

If anything, it may be a slow/delayed response to the tank being phosphate limited. A lagging indicator, if you will. This plant is not as drama-free as most of us think. It has plenty of opinions. Usually complains about CO2. It is also sensitive to trace deficiency, but that does not look like this. It loves high macros, high CO2, and, well, high everything. 

The other possibility is a sudden CHANGE in macros. I've kept this plant at 3 ppm phosphate every other day for a couple of years without issues, but it still complains about various other things. Every time I feel like I'm going to kill the plant, both of us rally, get our acts together and it comes back. 

Keep us posted. 

PS: my Isoetes is running amok. I can send you some.


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## burr740

Redid all the stem groups and moved some things around. 










Everything is trimmed pretty low atm, the back stems should be nearing the surface in 2-3 weeks, hopefully will look pretty good by then.

Front right corner is Isoetes from Sax, sent me some HUGE plants. Great addition, exactly what I had in mind. Thanks man!



















S repens got a big haircut, probably 60% is gone. The one stem of Syn belem front right is mine, all the others are new. Pogo erectus in the back










Also got some Ludwigia pantanal from Bartohog. Needed a dramatic orange and the Mermaid weed wasnt going to cut it. It's rebounding well in the 50, but wont be ready in time to go back in here.

Ive been wanting to try pantanal for a while now, apparently is a very fussy plant. We'll see how it likes my bowl of soup.

Early signs are positive, had it 4 days. Here it is straight out of the box, first planted.










and today, 4 days later





























Removed the Erio breviscapum from in front of the AR and planted HC all the way over. Was able to scoot the AR forward and have more room behind it.

The bonsai I took out, probably 50+ stems. Replanted about 30 tops, 3"-4" tall

(10" tweezers)











So this is probably the final layout for this tank. Hopefully in 2-3 weeks it will have grown out and look nice. Hoping to get one last round of pics where it looks pretty good, scape wise.


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## Williak

Really like the new layout! Good strips of red moving throughout


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## burr740

Had a dire set back a few days ago. I know what happened and will try to explain it. It may or may not make sense to anyone else. 

Noticed the Pantanal tops lost some color overnight, and the very centers had turned into little balls. First though was great, me and this plant are NOT going to get along. 

But I also noticed the rugosa and persicaria suddenly began to display what appeared to be Fe deficiency. Global pearling had also decreased, which is a sure sign something isnt right. So I gave it an extra dose of Fe that evening, and the next day a 50% increase in both micros and Fe (from .01 everything to .015)

Then the next day all these symptoms were worse, also the red ludwigia tops were crinkled again, Rotala sunset was twisted bad, and a couple other plants with minor symptoms.

Frustrated as hell I was! Just when I thought Id made a major breakthrough the same sh** started happening again.... Mad!

Then it just so happened I stumbled across a random facebook post talking about Osmocote+ causing high P levels, couple others chimed in said they experience the same thing.

If you recall a couple weeks ago when the Opacus had spots, I added 4 full gel caps around it. What I didnt mention is I also added about 15 more around other places throughout the tank. These were only about 1/3 full though, 10-12 balls each.

So anyway I broke out the test and sure enough P levels were back in the 5-10 range (hard to say comparing colors, but a distinct dark blue). Then I tested the 50 gallon, which has been getting the same P routine of .75 ppm, and no recent Osmocote+. It was showing around 1 ppm. (could be .5 or 2, light green regardless) So the O+ is definitely spiking P levels

The Fix: Did an 80% WC and havent dosed P for the last 2 macro days, only N and a bit of K to make up the difference. Also have been dosing Fe daily @ .015 dpta and .015 gluc, micro days are .015 csmb + the Fe. Gonna skip the P entirely for a while and keep an eye on the levels. Wont let it drop below 1 or so. 

There was an immediate rebound.

Here's some pics

Pantanal tops are toast, might as well prune them now and get on with it.



















Good side shoots already emerging, few more down low that you cant see











Look close you can see a lot of the bonsai tops are stunted. The group as a whole lost a lot of color, but it's rebounding pretty quick. Pic is today.











Sunset is also rebounding well, though I actually lost about 5 stems. On those, the top leaves completely drooped and the bottoms shed like crazy. The ones that merely curled have almost straightened out. So that's a relief! 











HC is coming along nice











Three weeks ago











Took the Opacus out and relocated it. Heartbreaker!! It was doing fine, but had gotten too big diameter wise, and was growing sideways which only made matters worse. Gonna try to propagate a new one to use in the 120, sorta start over with it.

In it's place is Homalomena 'Sekadau South', an aroid from Borneo iinm (another gem from Sax). It's a pretty good look I think, lot easier to scape around with limited space.

This is about 5 small ones planted together to make a bush











FTS










Really dont like the corkscrew val there, it's just for the time being to fill the space.

Still hoping to get a good money shot in the next 2-3 weeks before the tank comes down. Soaking some driftwood atm, which I may not even use much. Still in the planning stage for the new layout. Cant decide if I wanna go full Dutch or incorporate a little more Manzy. Leaning towards a couple small stumps with not many branches on the bottom, heavy on the Dutch


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## sohankpatel

@burr740 
Nice tank! My 55g decided to go and crash on me, so I have an empty box of water sitting next to me, and I am using your tank as inspiration. I love the reds that you are getting from Ludwigia red, mine was more of a lighter color. What is the bright pink/red plant on the right side behind the HC? What are ALL the plants you have that are red/purple? I know you are using a t5HO light, what kind of PAR is it putting out? I have a ray 2 and STILL have some lighting problems, red plants don't want to be red, but Green dust algae are crazy on plants and on the glass. My AR gets smothered by it every time. What are you dosing (method and how much)? Is there any hardscape in there? or is it just plants?


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## LRJ

Looking great, Burr. That AR variegated is a stunner! Funny seeing you, and Sax recently in his journal, lament space constraints. I dream of a bigger tank with room to keep more/bigger plants, but I guess even with a big tank there are difficult tradeoffs to make.


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## Saxa Tilly

Glad you made the connection between the O+ and the issues. Good call on pinching off the tops and letting new growth sprout. This is not a plant that tolerates lowness of anything. This is the first time that I've been able to grow it like a weed and maintain its color. All it took was very high light, very high CO2, and rich ferts. FWIW, my phosphate dosed is around 3 ppm every other day. So with build up, I expect the actual level in the tank is 5-6 ppm. At that level, I am not seeing the issue you had. May be it takes more. Or more likely, the secondary effect of high P knocking Fe or something else off.

Interesting to see YOU lose some Sunset for a change! LOL! 

Still, I'm amazed at how algae free everything is, even with a bout with nutrient imbalance. My tank would have been coated with something by now if I had that many dead tops. Which, well, I always do.  

I think the Isoetes will look good where the Val is. A think back curtain of Isoetes about a 6-8" wide will look really nice behind all the stems. Or replace the Val with Eleocharis motevidensis available from Florida growers. And move the Feather Duster or the Val to where the Isoetes is.

Bump:


LRJ said:


> Looking great, Burr. That AR variegated is a stunner! Funny seeing you, and Sax recently in his journal, lament space constraints. I dream of a bigger tank with room to keep more/bigger plants, but I guess even with a big tank there are difficult tradeoffs to make.


I'd be whining about space even if I had half dozen 180s. I'm glad I don't have the space/time to make that a reality because it'd become a full time job.


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## burr740

sohankpatel said:


> @*burr740*
> Nice tank! My 55g decided to go and crash on me, so I have an empty box of water sitting next to me, and I am using your tank as inspiration. I love the reds that you are getting from Ludwigia red, mine was more of a lighter color. What is the bright pink/red plant on the right side behind the HC? What are ALL the plants you have that are red/purple? I know you are using a t5HO light, what kind of PAR is it putting out? I have a ray 2 and STILL have some lighting problems, red plants don't want to be red, but Green dust algae are crazy on plants and on the glass. My AR gets smothered by it every time. What are you dosing (method and how much)? Is there any hardscape in there? or is it just plants?


Thanks. Plant is AR mini 'variegated'. Purple bush in the left midground is Staurogyne sp purple. That's a wild plant, tough to scape with really. Throws side shoots all over the place and drops roots like crazy. It's not too bad to maintain, just needs a good bit of shaping up.

If you look back through the last 3-4 pages, there's a par diagram. bulb pics, numbered plant lists...and fert routines discussed ad nausem, haha

The Ray 2 by itself is never going to give good reds. You need a supplemental light with lots of red and blue bulbs, a Monster Ray would probably do the trick.

Hate to hear about the tank crash. Sounds like it's time to roll them sleeves up and get busy!!



LRJ said:


> Looking great, Burr. That AR variegated is a stunner! Funny seeing you, and Sax recently in his journal, lament space constraints. I dream of a bigger tank with room to keep more/bigger plants, but I guess even with a big tank there are difficult tradeoffs to make.


Thanks man. Probably be grumbling about space in the 120 after a month or two. So many plants I want!



Saxa Tilly said:


> Interesting to see YOU lose some Sunset for a change! LOL!
> 
> Still, I'm amazed at how algae free everything is, even with a bout with nutrient imbalance. My tank would have been coated with something by now if I had that many dead tops. Which, well, I always do.


It's the first time Sunset ever did the droop and die routine. Usually it just curls up. Some recover, some stall out completely and wind up getting topped or tossed. 

Considering that, plus the effect on Pantanal, whatever happened was pretty drastic. Im surprised the Syn belems arent protesting, they are doing pretty good so far.

And there is definitely some algae in various spots. Usually anything struggling will get some gda/gsa on the bottoms where you cant really see it in pics. The odd tuft of bba will pop up here and there. In general Im pretty good about removing any as soon as I see it. So that helps a lot



Saxa Tilly said:


> I think the Isoetes will look good where the Val is. A think back curtain of Isoetes about a 6-8" wide will look really nice behind all the stems.


May try that. The problem with having vals in the front is the current bends them over. It's worse the taller they get. Like the idea of Isoetes behind the Pantanal though.




Saxa Tilly said:


> Glad you made the connection between the O+ and the issues. Good call on pinching off the tops and letting new growth sprout. This is not a plant that tolerates lowness of anything. This is the first time that I've been able to grow it like a weed and maintain its color. All it took was very high light, very high CO2, and rich ferts. FWIW, my phosphate dosed is around 3 ppm every other day. So with build up, I expect the actual level in the tank is 5-6 ppm. At that level, I am not seeing the issue you had. May be it takes more. Or more likely, the secondary effect of high P knocking Fe or something else off.


Im not sure what the P is doing exactly. As you pointed out these levels arent all that high, certainly not supposed to be toxic. So my current thinking is it must be influencing something else.

It usually happens suddenly, like overnight sometimes. That's too soon to be a deficiency. Plus when things really go south there are multiple symptoms all over the place, which either means CO2 or a toxicity. And I know for a fact CO2 is good. 

Something else Im seeing with lower P is all my tanks seem to like or need more traces now. Or maybe plants are simply better able to utilize them. Idk really, but it's a step in the right direction. Ive increase Fe a good bit, csmb Im cautiously inching up. Have a feeling I could do a lot more though. 


Anybody know what what happens to a chelation when it breaks (or whatever it does). Are the nutrients released all of a sudden where they are available to plants for a brief period of time, or are they just gone, period?


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## Saxa Tilly

Isoetes is pretty rigid - it will not bend, sway or flop about like Val. When you need something smooth and vertical in a sea of stems, it is really good. 

So is the general inching up of iron and traces working well for the most part?


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## burr740

Saxa Tilly said:


> So is the general inching up of iron and traces working well for the most part?


Yes but it's early days still, and Im taking it pretty slow.

Both the 50 and the 75 have been getting almost daily Fe at .01 dtpa and .01 gluc on macro days. Micro days I've increased everything to .015. Next move is to go .02 for csmb, or maybe .05 if I can gather the testicular fortitude to try it.

My hunch is things could do with a lot more traces than they've been getting for the last few months, and most definitely Fe.

Also note that the Fe solution is spiked with Mn to have a 3:1 ratio. Seems like a good idea as long as the other traces are so low.


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## burr740

Sunset chronicles:

Lost 3 more stems to droop and drop. Happened earlier in the week but I havent taken them out yet (pics from just now). Not sure if this is still going to be a thing, or a leftover effect of what happened last week when P spiked again. 

Im thinking it's the latter because all the other stems have flattened out nice and are getting huge in diameter. Couple of these are over 2 1/2 inches wide. They've never been this big before in any tank. 











For some reason pics distort when I try to take a top view through the tank. High on my to do list is learn better photo skills.











Pantanal, 5 days after topping. Dont tease me now!











Syn belems have faded and showing a little brown, started a few days ago. Ive seen this movie before, and they are as good as dead. 





















Lights just came on so the Mayaca is leaning in the current. In a couple of hours it will be straight up. Think it's the accumulation of O2 bubbles which float the plant up.

Moderate trim coming up this weekend. Ludwigia needs some attention, top and replant those taller stems, fatten up the group. The far right, need to do something with the Oldenlandia, either hack it way down, or thinking about moving it to the to the back. Also tidy up the aromatica.


Edit: Oh yeah forgot to mention Ive pumped the brakes on increasing micros. Current routine seems favorable so gonna stick with that for a while longer.

.015 csmb 3x week
.01 dtpa and .01 gluc daily (or most days)


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## Greggz

Looking great as always. Your tank with a few issues still looks better than 90% of other tanks at their peak.

Really looking forward to seeing what you do with the 120G. When is the transition?


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## sir.tie

Hey, interesting co2 reactor. How does it operate? I saw "water filter" reactors like you have at the bottom but what is this PVC pipe connected to it?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## burr740

Greggz said:


> Looking great as always. Your tank with a few issues still looks better than 90% of other tanks at their peak.
> 
> Really looking forward to seeing what you do with the 120G. When is the transition?


Thanks, man.

Things left to do on the new tank:

1. Paint the back - couple hour project, no big deal

2. Assemble the new reactor - already have the parts and a plan, another couple hour project

3. Let the stumps finish soaking - almost done but still leaching a few tanins, another week or two should do it, or be close enough

4. Make a final decision on the substrate - going back and forth between trying Aquasoil or doing sand. Most likely will do sand because it's so easy to work with, it's cheap, I know it well and can grow most species that I want in it. But still there's always a nagging voice in back of my mind wondering if this or that would be better with AS. I ask myself that every time some little issue pops up.

4b. Get the substrate


That's pretty much it. Wont be this next week and probably not the next. Most likely the week after that will start the actual move.




sir.tie said:


> Hey, interesting co2 reactor. How does it operate? I saw "water filter" reactors like you have at the bottom but what is this PVC pipe connected to it?


The water filter is commonly know as a Cerges reactor. The PVC is a modified rendering of a "Rex Griggs" reactor. 

One or the other is all a person needs. This contraption is way overkill, squashing a fly with a sledge hammer. What happened is I never got the pvc reactor exactly like I wanted, finally said to hell with it and slapped a cerges on the end.

Search the forum or youtube or google for more information on either design. Tons out there.


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## BettaBettas

absolutely stunning tank, a true work of aquatic art!!  I read this whole thread, took me about 1 hour word for word, and im amazed, your tank was slowly shriveling then you saved it! the suspense of life and death, but for a plant lol. Good Job, keep up the fantastic work, subscribing to this thread immediately!


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## littlejjohnson

What are the names of the plants in the current pic?? Beautiful!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## burr740

Thanks BB










Tightened up a few groups. 

Ammania bonsai is all growing at different rates. Weird, these were all on the same tapering level a couple weeks ago. Must've been the set back, some took it harder than others maybe.

Syn belems continued to fade and turn brown so I tossed them. Put two Hygro compact in it's place....sigh


Pantanal looking pretty good. Had four stumps with no side shoots yet, moved those to the 50 and spread these out a little. Was hoping this would be a big fat group then I'd take the Vals out. Probably not time for that now. 

The new growth is very encouraging, couple more down low that you can barely see.











Sunset curled up again. The good news is, now I think I know what causes it. 










A couple months ago I noticed the top leaves on the Persicaria getting a tan colored, fried looking edge around the leaves, the day after water change. These are tall and rigid stems which remain perfectly vertical when the water is drained. It finally dawned on me they were probably drying out too much. Now I drape a paper towel over them to keep them wet, and the weight also helps lean them over some. It hasnt happened since.

Prior to yesterday's water change all those Sunset's were spectacular, fat and colorful, with perfectly flat leaves. They also stick up out of the water when it's drained. Not as rigid as the Persicaria, they do lean over some, but not enough to stay in the water.

Yesterday I was fiddling with different things and they were probably left exposed for about an hour. Then by the end of the day they were all curled up. I was thinking WTF? Because the tank is running fine these last few days. Aside from the syn belem, which was a leftover effect, there are no issues and nothing has changed, fert wise, co2, etc.

So I believe that is what causes them to curl. Thinking back I can remember a few times it happened right after a wc. Gonna pay special attention from here on out, and not let anything dry out too much. Cue the paper towels!



littlejjohnson said:


> What are the names of the plants in the current pic?? Beautiful!


I'll do another numbered pic with everything before the tank comes down in a couple of weeks. In the meantime if you are wondering about a specific plant, just ask.


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## crisp330

Just finished reading through this whole thread. Amazing stuff here, and amazing tank. So many light bulbs going off throughout the course of your story, as my story is remarkably similar to yours (although my tank at it's best has looked about 2% as good as yours). I think you have hopefully leaped me ahead light years versus what I would have ever figured out. While facing what I think are the same issues, I lack the observation and testing/tweaking skills, and the dedicated husbandry that you've shown here. My tank has had some very rough times and at it's best let's just say it hasn't been very good.

I too made a remarkably silly mistake with Osmocote+ a while back (there really should be aquarium instructions on those bottles! :laugh2. I put 30 tabs (filled 00 gel caps) into my 29g tank. :eek5: On top of that I've been dosing regular EI amounts with CSM+B plus separate Fe. The tank has never done extremely well (just doing EI, pre-osmocote), growth hadn't been good and very slow, and I've had a lot of what looks like extreme toxicities in many species. Only now I know (think) that though, after reading through some of the CMS+B discussions and finding my way here. 

My nitrates and phosphates consistently ran very high, buy hey, this is EI, that's fine... right!? If anything I need to keep adding more of everything (specifically micros since I can't test those and the others are already high, and their uptake seems very low)... must be some deficiency somewhere I thought. Pour a little more gas on the fire...

A couple months or so after adding the root tabs, I added 30 MTS snails as I was thinking my substrate (Flourite Black Sand) was getting compacted (which it was) and causing some issues. Well that's when things really went downhill. I'm not sure if it was just that time, or the MTS snails really triggered the substrate and tank go into super toxic mode with their mixing of the substrate. My Japonica Blyxa (had previously been one of the only things doing half decent) literally started disintegrating and the base. I had a good bit of it and it ALL melted away within a week or two. Everything else doing worse and worse, stems completely rotting away, etc. All the MTS died. Their shells would turn white/transparent and then disintegrate in the tank. I couldn't keep Amano shirmp alive at all, they'd always die. At least I never lost any fish (Cardinals, Otos, and a Roseline Shark). Nitrates were always high (40ppm+) and Phosphates were always off the charts and un-readable they were so dark.

Eventually I got fed up with it and took out all the plants, mixed the substrate completely by hand (hardcore mixing/stiring), and removed as much Osmocote as possible by hand (which I saw you also did at one point), did about 4-5 90% water changes at this point while mixing the sand (couldn't even see 1 inch into the tank while doing this), etc etc. I figured hopefully that reset my tank at least to a degree, un-compacted the sand, and got all the Osmocote out. 

After that I've been dosing 2/3 EI for macros and am seeing more stable results in those levels, and somewhat improved plant growth. Nitrates I'm able to keep under ~30ppm for the most part, Phosphate is more in check but still on the high side (2-4ppm) and sometimes creeps up (5ppm+). I've still been dosing regular CSM+B plus Fe amounts though, and I'm seeing what I believe are toxicities. For example, I now think that is the cause of this issue in my Ammania Gracailis, which I saw you listed as a very sensitive species to micro toxicity - http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/8...on/1078905-ammannia-gracilis-issues-help.html). My Rotala Macranda, Rotala Nanjenshan, Ludwigia Rubin/Repens/Red/Something, AR Mini, all have general leaf deformities and lack color, growth, leaves curl/twist/bend/slope downwards often, etc. I used to blame my GH and soft water for the deformations (calcium deficiency), but Equilibrium has never helped... I think it's always been a toxicity. The Ammannia Gracailis has always been the worst off though. 

*TLDR* - I think I've been trailing your same path (but much less gracefully). Im now trying to keep my macros (specifically P) much lower, and think I need to cut my micros by a huge margin. I dose daily via an auto-doser (macros and micros separated by 4 hours). I'm currently dosing:

.47ppm CMS+B per week (using FE as proxy) 
.56ppm FE 11% DPTA per week
GRAND TOTAL: 1.03ppm per week FE (plus whatever other traces in CSM+B). 

I also added a .4ppm dose directly 2 days ago. I was inspired by seeing a post of Tom Barr saying he doses FE at 4ppm (not .4, but 4) per week... now I have very cloudy water. My guess is possibly reaction with PO4 precipitating in the water.

The latest I see from you is .045 CSM+B per week and .14 FE per week (DTPA + Gluc), totals to .185ppm Fe per week. Is that accurate?

That's about 10% the CSM I'm dosing per week and 20% the iron total. Is that right, or am I missing something somewhere? Just wondering since that's a pretty significant difference. I was thinking of just cutting micros all together for a week or more and seeing what happens. Any thoughts/suggestions on that? 

(I don't mean to hijack your thread and apologize if I am! Just thought we were in similar boats and I'd share my experience, even though you're way ahead of me. Can't wait to see the new tank setup!! Your tank is my inspiration for getting mine hopefully straightened out!)


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## burr740

Thanks for the kind words. It means a lot to know that my trials and errors may have helped somebody else. 



crisp330 said:


> The latest I see from you is .045 CSM+B per week and .14 FE per week (DTPA + Gluc), totals to .185ppm Fe per week. Is that accurate?
> 
> That's about 10% the CSM I'm dosing per week and 20% the iron total. Is that right, or am I missing something somewhere? Just wondering since that's a pretty significant difference. I was thinking of just cutting micros all together for a week or more and seeing what happens. Any thoughts/suggestions on that?


I dont always dose the extra Fe every day, just most days. And sometimes I dont fill the cap all the way up, maybe 2/3s or whatever. (one cap is the full .01 + .01 dose of both types of Fe)

So those numbers are accurate, but in reality the total Fe for the week is probably a bit less.

Big water change or two, then skip micros for a week is probably a good plan. 

Usually for me, and others Ive read about, there is a dramatic improvement during the first few days, or a week or two, followed by a severe downturn as deficiencies set in. 

So a week cold turkey is about all I would do, then start back with whatever new routine you've settled on.


Another wrench in the machine lately has been the high P levels. Im not sure exactly what was causing what, but things are infinitely better now.

Two months ago there's no way I could dose this much Fe without withering some plants. Yet there was always what appeared to be chronic Fe deficiency symptoms, which wouldnt go away no matter what I did. 

Both the deficiency symptoms and the apparent "tox" issues are mostly gone now, for whatever reason.


Good luck with your tank. I'll be interested to hear how things work out. Feel free to come talk about whatever in this thread. Same goes for everyone.


----------



## crisp330

Im going to stop micros on Monday along with a WC. Will be out of town this weekend and want to watch this change like a hawk, so will let the auto-dosers run with what they've been doing through then. That's the part I'm worried about though, is going from toxicity to deficiencies and trying to find that balance. I'm hoping my line won't be as narrow to walk as yours has been. I know you don't have it all figured out (no one does), but you are certainly extremely well in tune with your tank and what it's doing.

I attributed my high PO4 to the Osmocote, but I think it was high before that as well. With my soft water (~1kh and 5.3 ph after CO2), from what I've seen others post, the toxicity level is much easier to reach, even without the PO4 issues and however that relates to everything.

I always read so much about these colorful plants needing heavy micros and iron, but your tank absolutely disproves with that. I'm really hoping and thinking this is in fact my issue... although I've definitely said that a time or two over the years . This seems the most logical and promising though, as in retrospect it explains so many things, and my trials have been so similar to yours. Hopefully I can finally start to get those respectable results which have been alluding and confounding me for so long.


----------



## burr740

crisp330 said:


> Im going to stop micros on Monday along with a WC. Will be out of town this weekend and want to watch this change like a hawk, so will let the auto-dosers run with what they've been doing through then. That's the part I'm worried about though, is going from toxicity to deficiencies and trying to find that balance. I'm hoping my line won't be as narrow to walk as yours has been. I know you don't have it all figured out (no one does), but you are certainly extremely well in tune with your tank and what it's doing.
> 
> I attributed my high PO4 to the Osmocote, but I think it was high before that as well. With my soft water (~1kh and 5.3 ph after CO2), from what I've seen others post, the toxicity level is much easier to reach, even without the PO4 issues and however that relates to everything.
> 
> I always read so much about these colorful plants needing heavy micros and iron, but your tank absolutely disproves with that. I'm really hoping and thinking this is in fact my issue... although I've definitely said that a time or two over the years . This seems the most logical and promising though, as in retrospect it explains so many things, and my trials have been so similar to yours. Hopefully I can finally start to get those respectable results which have been alluding and confounding me for so long.


It certainly sounds like you have a real nutrient soup going on atm. Resetting everything to a more controlled level is bound to help. 

I think high P levels have been a confounding factor in my case for quite some time. Otherwise, I doubt the line would've been so narrow between apparent toxicity and deficiency. Because let's face it, ferts are not supposed to be this complicated.

It wouldnt surprise me if the tank turns out needs a little more micros and/or Fe than Im currently dosing. But Im still gun shy about increasing either one too much. Everything is doing so much better, think it's probably best to ride it out for a while and see what the plants tell me.


----------



## klibs

Dig the vals in the back. Tank still lookin good! 
Have things been pretty stable for you lately?

(I didn't read any of the thread before posting)


----------



## burr740

klibs said:


> Dig the vals in the back. Tank still lookin good!
> Have things been pretty stable for you lately?
> 
> (I didn't read any of the thread before posting)


Thanks klibs, glad to see you back around.

It's funny you mention the vals. I only put them there temporarily, for lack of having anything better to fill the spot, and Ive been trying to replace them ever since. I do like the plant, just not for right there. It could work if the mayaca was somewhere else. Having those two side by side isnt the best look though.

Had a fert epiphany a couple months ago, things are better now than they've been in a while. Not that things ever got too bad, just nagging issues with some of the more finicky species. Too much to re-explain lol, can read all about it in the last few pages.


----------



## klibs

Gotcha

I'm hoping for some input from you as I begin to rebuild my 75g. Always wanted to log my work as diligently as you do but I could never do it lol. Going through an ordeal right now so I think I might actually do it this time so others can learn from my idiocy (again).


----------



## burr740

klibs said:


> Gotcha
> 
> I'm hoping for some input from you as I begin to rebuild my 75g. Always wanted to log my work as diligently as you do but I could never do it lol. Going through an ordeal right now so I think I might actually do it this time so others can learn from my idiocy (again).


Should totally do that, if for no other reason than a personal reference for yourself. Having this journal with dated pics and everything has helped me out tremendously.

I have a little calendar book where I write down daily doses and things like water changes. Helps me keep up with all that. And I do jot down a few notes on what is happening, response to something different, etc. But the note part is woefully inadequate because basically Im too lazy to do it thoroughly.

Cant tell you how many times Ive looked back to find pics where a certain plant was doing well (or poorly) just to compare what the tank was getting at the time.


----------



## burr740

So Im trying to answer a few lingering questions before setting up the new tank.

I've long thought my CO2 was insanely high, even though livestock appeared to be fine. Past few months Ive had the PH dropping 1.2 by lights on, then it proceeds on down to a 1.5 drop, or a little better.

I recall a Tom Barr post saying that much more than a 1.2 drop is probably unnecessary. So the other day I had the bright idea to drop it down to a more "reasonable" level. I set it to drop a full point by lights on, from there it proceeds down to a solid 1.2.

Next day, global pearling hadnt changed much, still good. Second day I notice one Pantanal top had lost color. Didnt think much about it being co2 related, thought maybe it's finally time to bump micros/fe a little bit (and maybe it is)

But by the 3rd day, which is today, the top that went pale is now more of a shriveled up ball, and a couple of the newer side shoots have also gone pale. Those two lower ones were previously bright orange.











Took 3 days to go from prime specimens to that^. Im fairly certain this is CO2 related, and nothing to do with ferts. Either way Ive cranked it back up like it was before. In retrospect it was a dumb idea, but hey you never know unless you try! 



Moved a few things around, nothing major. 










Replaced the Erio vietnams with Blyxa, and put a Crypt Green Gecko in place of the Compact Hygro. I really like that crypt, just every time Ive tried one in this much light it gets flat as a pancake, which is not a good look.

The Vietnam's, really need about 5 to fill that line and I only have those 3, so I stuck some byxa in there...pretty good contrast actually


----------



## Immortal1

Without digging too far back in your thread, what are you using to determine the ph of the water? Are you using a controller? If so, do you feel the probe is reasonably calibrated? If you are using a pH pen, basically the same question regarding calibration.
I ask as I am using a Milwaukee pH controller, and similar to you, I closely monitor how much pH drop I get. I also notice every month I have to pull out the pH packets, hope they are not too old, go thru the calibration process and I typically find I am off a little bit (0.2 high side, 0.1 or 0.2 low side). It does not make much difference, but I just wondered for your situation if the device you are using is off a little, your 1.2 could actually be 0.8 and your final 1.5 might be closer to 1.1 - all of which would be good for your fish and obviously good for your plants.

The other thing that I find curious, does cO2 level really make that much of a difference? and that quickly? I have been trying to nurse my tanks back to good health by changing this or that - never thought that a minor change in cO2 would make that much difference. Then again, I am talking swords, ferns, hygro, etc (pretty easy stuff). You on the other head..... well, you get the idea


----------



## burr740

Immortal1 said:


> Without digging too far back in your thread, what are you using to determine the ph of the water? Are you using a controller? If so, do you feel the probe is reasonably calibrated? If you are using a pH pen, basically the same question regarding calibration.
> I ask as I am using a Milwaukee pH controller, and similar to you, I closely monitor how much pH drop I get. I also notice every month I have to pull out the pH packets, hope they are not too old, go thru the calibration process and I typically find I am off a little bit (0.2 high side, 0.1 or 0.2 low side). It does not make much difference, but I just wondered for your situation if the device you are using is off a little, your 1.2 could actually be 0.8 and your final 1.5 might be closer to 1.1 - all of which would be good for your fish and obviously good for your plants.


Good points. Ive always been suspicious of my PH readings, especially with such a high drop and apparently no ill effects on livestock. So what you describe may very well be the case.

Im using a digital pen, $25 job from Amazon, and new calibration solutions. Both are about two months old. I calibrate it often, and so far it hasnt needed much adjustment.

Recently replaced a similar model after about a year and a half. It had gotten to where it would be off a few 10ths after just a couple of uses.

I feel pretty confident in the results, and honestly dont know of a a better way to do it. 



Immortal1 said:


> The other thing that I find curious, does cO2 level really make that much of a difference? and that quickly? I have been trying to nurse my tanks back to good health by changing this or that - never thought that a minor change in cO2 would make that much difference. Then again, I am talking swords, ferns, hygro, etc (pretty easy stuff). You on the other head..... well, you get the idea


With this much light (~120 par at sub), and this many greedy stem plants, CO2 can absolutely do that. Not sure if you were following when I was building different reactors, trying to get one just right. CO2 was all over the place for a couple of weeks while I was testing them out. Several species quickly went to hell, various algae popped up. It was a real eye opening experience about the importance of "good" co2. I got to see fist hand many examples similar to what the pant is doing now.

As long as CO2 levels remain above non-limiting, it can go up and down without causing any issues. But going back and forth between limiting and non-limiting can be a big deal, even from one day to the next.

That's a main reason why less light is more forgiving, because the non-limiting threshold is lower, which means more wiggle room for everything.


----------



## Immortal1

Now I understand a bit better 
When you are on the ragged edge, so to speak, little things can make a big difference. Once one fully understands that, it begins to demonstrate efforts and knowledge needed to keep such an impressive tank - well done!

Mine is definitely not in the same league as yours, but, every day I learn something new. Right now I am just happy figuring out how to have healthy plants (and happy fish, lol).


----------



## LRJ

burr740 said:


> As long as CO2 levels remain above non-limiting, it can go up and down without causing any issues. But going back and forth between limiting and non-limiting can be a big deal, even from one day to the next.


Thanks for the tip. Motivates me to be more consistent with top-offs. I've noticed big fluctuations depending on water level. Think it has more to do with the filter outlets (pumping in the dissolved CO2 water) getting closer to the surface as the level drops, than it does with the depth of the water itself. Someone with an in-tank diffuser or filter outlets down low in the tank might not see the same effect for example. But I observe swings as large as 5.9 to 6.2 with a 0.25" drop in water level and no other changes.


----------



## Xiaozhuang

Tank gets better and better; gonna have to come through here again and read in detail on the high CSM+B/Fe issues. Not so much for my own tanks which seem alright, but quite a number of people elsewhere seem to have similar issues


----------



## burr740

Immortal1 said:


> Now I understand a bit better
> When you are on the ragged edge, so to speak, little things can make a big difference. Once one fully understands that, it begins to demonstrate efforts and knowledge needed to keep such an impressive tank - well done!
> 
> Mine is definitely not in the same league as yours, but, every day I learn something new. Right now I am just happy figuring out how to have healthy plants (and happy fish, lol).


Heh, more effort here than knowledge. Half the time I have no idea what Im doing.....but Im pretty good about cleaning up the mess. 

Good cleaning and maintenance, frequent water changes and aggressive pruning, doing all that will cover a multitude of errors.



LRJ said:


> Thanks for the tip. Motivates me to be more consistent with top-offs. I've noticed big fluctuations depending on water level. Think it has more to do with the filter outlets (pumping in the dissolved CO2 water) getting closer to the surface as the level drops, than it does with the depth of the water itself. Someone with an in-tank diffuser or filter outlets down low in the tank might not see the same effect for example. But I observe swings as large as 5.9 to 6.2 with a 0.25" drop in water level and no other changes.


Feel that man. This tank evaporates 1/4" a day. But there is so much surface agitation to begin with, and the outflows are lower, it can drop about an inch before affecting co2. I usually top it off once, mid week.

Good to keep in mind that last tenth or two is huge. Say degassed is 7.0, there's not much difference at 6.9. But as concentration builds and it keeps on dropping, the difference between 6.0 and 5.9 can be 10-20 ppm (rough example)




Xiaozhuang said:


> Tank gets better and better; gonna have to come through here again and read in detail on the high CSM+B/Fe issues. Not so much for my own tanks which seem alright, but quite a number of people elsewhere seem to have similar issues


Thanks, I aspire to one day have tanks as good as yours!

Lots of documented pics and dosages in the last several pages, but dont expect any concrete answers because Im not even sure what happens myself, or why. 

Not even sure I buy the whole "micro-tox" phenomena, because too many people have success with more. All I know is what happens in my tanks, which is currently 4 high-techs and they all respond basically the same.



littlejjohnson said:


> What are the names of the plants in the current pic?? Beautiful!












1. Eriocaulon 'feather duster' (they get taller, these are small)
2. Staurogyne repens
3. Lobelia cardinalis 'small form'
4. Heminathus Callitrichoides (HC)
5. Eriocaulon vietnam
6. Alternanthera reineckii 'mini' variegated
7. Ammania sp bonsai
8. Homalomena sp. sekadau south
9. Staurogyne sp 'purple'
10. Hygrophila var, compacta
11. Pogosteman erectus
12. Persicaria sao paulo
13. Corkscrew val
14. Ludwigia pantanal
15. Mayaca fluviatilis
16. Ludwigia sp red, (aka Super red mini)
17. Limnophila rugosa
18. Willow moss sp gigantea
19. Laganandra meeboldi red round
20. Rotala ramosior sunset
21. Oldenlandia salzmannii
22. Limnophila aromatica
23. Isoetes lacustris


----------



## Greggz

All I can say is "wow". The tank is looking just spectacular. 

Really looking forward to seeing what you do with the new 120. I know it's going to be something very special.

On a side note, I have been adopting some of your basics lately in my own tank. You always mention the following:


burr740 said:


> Good cleaning and maintenance, frequent water changes and aggressive pruning, doing all that will cover a multitude of errors.


I've taken that to heart lately. Put it this way, just trying to always think what would Burr740 do?? :grin2::grin2::grin2:


----------



## Immortal1

what would Burr740 do?? 
LOL, you and me both!


----------



## burr740

^ 9 times out of 10 the answer is whip out the scissors and unroll the siphon! :red_mouth

@Greggz , tentative plan for the 120 is basically the same style tank, just with a bigger footprint. Only thing I havent decided is whether to use two stumps, one or none. 


Scape time is over. Sold some stuff off, gonna move a few more things then it's grow out mode until the 120 is ready. 

Pre-trim (last pic of anything resembling a scape)










The 3 remaining Pantanal looking good, almost hit the surface already.










Post hack











Check out the difference between high and low light Blyxa. The little green one's been stuck in the corner of another tank. 










Didnt do much to the left side, topped the Pantanal and Persicaria.


----------



## Tanks!

Burr,

What do you run in your canister filter? I've a smaller setup (36 bowfront) so I'm going with the Eiheim 2015 (rated for 92g). I know you say "lean" in a few places on this thread, but could you please share what exactly you have in that canister?


----------



## burr740

Got a new batch of emmersed Mermaid weed, here's one converting











Happy bonsai, and you can see a few sprigs of new stuff courtesy of @Saxa Tilly (Thanks again man, your kindness is extraordinary!)

Myrio red stem and Floscopa scandens, will definitely be using both of those in the new tank.












Limno gigantea, pic doesnt do it justice, it's over 3" diameter. Would make an awesome bush but Im afraid it might be too fast for my liking, inch a day plant. 

Probably try it out though because it's a really unique look. It's so big around half a dozen stems will go a long way. Not that hard to maintain a handful of something.












Fert update

Macros are still 6/.75/6 ppm N/P/K, 3x week.

Micros 3x week .015 csmb, and .02 dtpa, and .007 Mn

Eliminated the gluconate and replaced it with the same amount of dtpa. Was getting a lot of brown build up on the outflow pipes. That's mainly from the gluc, precipitating I guess. Also stopped the daily Fe since dtpa stays around longer.

Been going a couple weeks at those levels and everything seems happy.

Reducing P has been a resounding success over the last month or so.

*What it did:* Eliminated the raging Fe deficiency in a few species that wouldnt go away by simply adding more Fe (or micros in general).

*What it did not do: *Open the door for higher doses of micros to be a favorable thing. All my tanks still seem to like these same low amounts. That's fine with me if everything is happy.

Does make me wonder though, people who dose 2-3 ppm of P every other day, and full EI micros to go along with it, makes me wonder if those two arent just canceling out each other. And the more you dose of one the more you need of the other.

Ive never seen any concrete evidence of a tank using more than around .1 ppm of Fe per week. Im talking about actual plant uptake. Maybe the evidence is out there, but Ive yet to see it.

So why the need to dose 1 or 1.5 ppm per week if the plants arent using it? Idk, if the plants are happy what difference does it make? This whole experience has has caused me to question a few things though.


Will start the new tank in 2-3 weeks. (he said for the last 2-3 months) But for real this time. :hihi:

Obligatory FTS, nothing is arranged, random plants stuck everywhere just growing out 













Tanks! said:


> Burr,
> 
> What do you run in your canister filter? I've a smaller setup (36 bowfront) so I'm going with the Eiheim 2015 (rated for 92g). I know you say "lean" in a few places on this thread, but could you please share what exactly you have in that canister?


By lean I mean not packed tightly with lots of fine pads and floss, so as not to reduce the flow too much.

In the Aquatop it goes course sponge, loose pillow floss, bio balls, bio rings. The Hydor is course sponge, loose floss, Purigen 'the bag' with about 250ml, bio, bio.

The Hydor by itself is plenty for this tank. The Aquatop is just on there to be cycled for the 120, got the flow cut way down. Will add Purigen to that one too on the new set up.


----------



## Tanks!

burr740 said:


> By lean I mean not packed tightly with lots of fine pads and floss, so as not to reduce the flow too much.
> 
> In the Aquatop it goes course sponge, loose pillow floss, bio balls, bio rings. The Hydor is course sponge, loose floss, Purigen 'the bag' with about 250ml, bio, bio.
> 
> The Hydor by itself is plenty for this tank. The Aquatop is just on there to be cycled for the 120, got the flow cut way down. Will add Purigen to that one too on the new set up.


So, no carbon. That was what I was most curious about.


----------



## Opare

Tanks! said:


> So, no carbon. That was what I was most curious about.


For chemical filtration I think Purigen works wonders. So I use it over carbon and I think same goes for Burr.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## burr740

*Four Faces of Mermaid Weed *(Proserpinaca palustris, US variety)

So the new batch of emersed grown, I put a few in each of my four tanks. Here's what they look like each one. Nothing earth shattering, just thought it was interesting. 

Most have grown out enough that Ive been able to top and replant the new submerged growth. 


In the 10 gal - Light is a single Finnex Stingray, about 45 PAR at the sub. Less co2 than the other tanks, 1 point drop in PH.











In the 20 gal - Light is two T8s in a homemade box with pretty good reflectors, about 65 PAR at the sub. PH drops about 1.2 at peak, so more CO2 than the 10, but less than the big tanks











^ 20 gallon is also loaded with organic waste for some reason. It'll turn a 100ML Purigen bag doo-doo brown in 2 weeks. Probably because one side has a gravel/sand mix and it's going on 2 years since Ive really vacuumed it good. Gonna sort that out when the 120 is done.


In the 50 gal - Light is a 2 bulb T5 HO unit with high end reflectors, about 100 PAR at the sub. PH drops 1.1 by lights on, then goes down close to 1.4 at peak, roughly the same as the 75.

Couple of these are still attached to emersed stems










In the 75 gal - 










* all tanks get roughly the same ferts.


Fascinating, right! :red_mouth


Obligatory FTS. Tank is coming down next weekend (believe it when you see it)











Currently holding Buce auditions to decide which one to put on a stump.










Had them in this tank for about a week, they are changing colors apparently. @Saxa Tilly gave them to me a few months ago. They've been sitting in back of the 10 gal all this time. Neither is in the best shape atm

Leaning towards this one becuase it contrasts better with the Lagenandra, which Im pretty sure will be at the base of said stump.

Plus it does the underwater bloom thing which is cool











May stick both of them in the new tank for a while and see what each one becomes, probably look totally different after a few weeks

Here's the other one. I like it too, but that new growth coloration is very similar to the Lagenandra's. So Im thinking the other one might look better.










No idea what species they are btw, Im a newb when it comes to Buces. If anyone knows plz let me know.

Thanks for looking!


----------



## houseofcards

Wow that's quite a collection of beautiful, healthy plants, very nice!


----------



## PortalMasteryRy

Nice! You finally got some buces  

How is your L. Pantanal doing? Also are you still running your UV?


----------



## Greggz

Burr740.......One of the guys in my regular golf foursome is a scratch player. After about 6 holes, I'll tell him if I forget to say "nice shot" just assume it is implied. I wonder if he gets tired of hearing it so often.

I feel the same way about your tank. I hope you don't mind me saying once again, but as usual everything looks spectacular. You are a "scratch" plant grower. If I don't chime in, just assume I checked on the thread and it is implied.

And funny you have four looks to the Mermaid Weed, but none of them look like mine?!?!

I'm sure it will be bittersweet tearing down the 75, but the excitement and possibilities with the new 120 should ease the pain.


----------



## burr740

houseofcards said:


> Wow that's quite a collection of beautiful, healthy plants, very nice!


Thanks man 



PortalMasteryRy said:


> Nice! You finally got some buces
> 
> How is your L. Pantanal doing? Also are you still running your UV?


Pantanal is looking rough, dont think it's going to make it. Got a few stumps left with some weak looking side shoots emerging, but my hopes are not high.

Feel like I can do better with it because it did show flashes of greatness. Just one of those plants that doesnt handle a set back well, like Syn belems (for me at least) 

The UV - Ever since you tested my water, and we speculated over Fe being so low, I only run it if I move some things around, or otherwise disturb the substrate much. Usually for a day or two after that.

But....I dont think it had much to do with micros or Fe because in the following months, absolutely nothing changed. 




Greggz said:


> Burr740.......One of the guys in my regular golf foursome is a scratch player. After about 6 holes, I'll tell him if I forget to say "nice shot" just assume it is implied. I wonder if he gets tired of hearing it so often.
> 
> I feel the same way about your tank. I hope you don't mind me saying once again, but as usual everything looks spectacular. You are a "scratch" plant grower. If I don't chime in, just assume I checked on the thread and it is implied.
> 
> And funny you have four looks to the Mermaid Weed, but none of them look like mine?!?!
> 
> I'm sure it will be bittersweet tearing down the 75, but the excitement and possibilities with the new 120 should ease the pain.


Haha, thanks man, means a lot coming from you!

I thought you might appreciate different shots of mermaid weed. It can change colors and shape in a heartbeat. Ive had it look a lot different than this too, for unknown reasons.

Hoping it stays a nice bright yellow in the new set up, or orange.


----------



## burr740

Couple quick pics of Buce blooming


----------



## Ben Belton

Awesome as always. Will you remind me what substrate you are using?

I've never done Buces either. So much has changed in this hobby since I was big into it. (Well as far as the variety of plants) It can be overwhelming.


----------



## burr740

Ben Belton said:


> Awesome as always. Will you remind me what substrate you are using?
> 
> I've never done Buces either. So much has changed in this hobby since I was big into it. (Well as far as the variety of plants) It can be overwhelming.


Black Diamond blasting sand, available at Tractor Supply. It's a coal slag product made to use in sand blasting machines. For our purposes it's basically an inert sand.

And yeah the number of species available to hobbyists now is pretty amazing. Seen old timers talking about 15-20 years ago there were maybe 50 species available, now there's over 300! 

Or maybe it's 500, not sure, whatever it's a lot!


----------



## Ben Belton

burr740 said:


> Black Diamond blasting sand, available at Tractor Supply. It's a coal slag product made to use in sand blasting machines. For our purposes it's basically an inert sand.


OK Thanks. Did you have to rinse it? On the inert side I have always been partial to Flourite, but hate rinsing it and I'll bet this blasting sand is much cheaper. How big is the grain size? Does it compact much?




burr740 said:


> And yeah the number of species available to hobbyists now is pretty amazing. Seen old timers talking about 15-20 years ago there were maybe 50 species available, now there's over 300!


Well, when it come to age, I'm not _*that*_ old, but when it comes to being in this hobby, I'm an old timer from pre-Internet days. When I started we used incandescent and T-12 fluorescent bulbs. Metal halide if you had money. CO2 was the new hot thing and the only way you could get it was from Germany, and it was crazy expensive. Someone bought one of the systems, made a tape (VHS) of their setup, and we all mailed it around to each other.... snail mail. That was as fast as info and new ideas traveled.


----------



## Ben Belton

Ha... oh yeah, I remember when your Mermaid Weed was the hot new plant to the hobby


----------



## Saxa Tilly

Love the flowering Buces. Also love that your slow growing plants in the foreground are not all spotted with GSA. That's always my worry about putting these types of plants up front. Glad you're doing well with them.


----------



## burr740

Ben Belton said:


> OK Thanks. Did you have to rinse it? On the inert side I have always been partial to Flourite, but hate rinsing it and I'll bet this blasting sand is much cheaper. How big is the grain size? Does it compact much?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, when it come to age, I'm not _*that*_ old, but when it comes to being in this hobby, I'm an old timer from pre-Internet days. When I started we used incandescent and T-12 fluorescent bulbs. Metal halide if you had money. CO2 was the new hot thing and the only way you could get it was from Germany, and it was crazy expensive. Someone bought one of the systems, made a tape (VHS) of their setup, and we all mailed it around to each other.... snail mail. That was as fast as info and new ideas traveled.


Hah, that's awesome! By old timers, yeah I meant people who've been in the hobby a long time, not old in general. 

Blasting sand:

$7.99 for a 50 Lb bag

Comes in 3 grain sizes but they usually only stock two, fine and medium. I always use the medium, which is 20/40 grit iirc, could be wrong about that. 

Extremely dusty out of the bag. Gotta rinse it well

Doesnt compact...at all. It's really great to work with. I love it



Saxa Tilly said:


> Love the flowering Buces. Also love that your slow growing plants in the foreground are not all spotted with GSA. That's always my worry about putting these types of plants up front. Glad you're doing well with them.


Thanks again for giving them to me! They've only been in this tank about 3 weeks. Had them in back of my 10 gallon for a few months before that. They grew, but very slowly, never bloomed. They've really come alive under this light. Lots of new leaves and colored up better. You can notice the older ones are not as colorful or robust.


As long as the tank is running well, I really dont get much GSA. Even since reducing P, which I was sorta concerned about. 

Hope the buces can stay algae free in the new set up. The plan is to have at least one species on top of a stump, not a very tall stump, but still be closer to the light. We'll see...


----------



## PEdwards

Damn dude, you're doing amazing stuff! If this is what happens when I go away for a year then I think I'll say so long for good.


----------



## burr740

PEdwards said:


> Damn dude, you're doing amazing stuff! If this is what happens when I go away for a year then I think I'll say so long for good.


Thank you Phil, I consider that high praise indeed. This tank has mainly been a 3 year endeavor of learning how to grow plants. Gonna try to hone my scaping skills more in new 120. Hopefully get a little closer to your level one day! 

Also very glad to see you started a journal here for the new 80 gal. Been following the previous set up on UKaps, and I know it will be a great read for everyone.....so dont go anywhere!


----------



## PEdwards

I'll try not to go anywhere. There was a little while when I thought The Curse of the New Tank would hit and I'd have to move, but I may have found a new long term position just down the road. It's currently a temp thing to help them get caught up, but there's long term potential if they can find the money.  So....the journal will continue for now.


What sort of aquascape do you envision for the new tank? You've gotten a lot better at grouping (and growing, wowzers!) plants. I honestly think you'd have a good chance of placing if the ultra-detailed landscape panorama fad weren't what's winning competitions these days. Have you considered doing a full-on authentic Dutch style scape? Seems like that would be playing to your strengths.

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## burr740

PEdwards said:


> What sort of aquascape do you envision for the new tank? You've gotten a lot better at grouping (and growing, wowzers!) plants. I honestly think you'd have a good chance of placing if the ultra-detailed landscape panorama fad weren't what's winning competitions these days. Have you considered doing a full-on authentic Dutch style scape? Seems like that would be playing to your strengths.
> 
> Cheers,
> Phil


Thanks. The plan is to have basically the same type of layout with just a bigger footprint to work with.

I've been greatly inspired by Tom Barr's last couple of tanks. So something to that effect, except not so many branches laying around on the bottom - just enough to complete the stump(s) look.

I love the Dutch style and for a long time have toyed with the idea of trying an authentic one. A big thing that give me pause is the moss wall background and planted sides. Not sure if I'd like that very much. Plus I have a serious case of collectoritis that would need to be dealt with. 

But you never know, good thing about layouts like this is being very easy to change.

I do want to use larger groupings, have better space between groups, better depth and contrast, good focal point(s). All those things I want to get better at. So it will have many Dutch aspects. 

Now if only there was a category for _Almost a Dutch_...


----------



## APynckel

burr740 said:


> Blasting sand:
> 
> $7.99 for a 50 Lb bag
> 
> Comes in 3 grain sizes but they usually only stock two, fine and medium. I always use the medium, which is 20/40 grit iirc, could be wrong about that.
> 
> Extremely dusty out of the bag. Gotta rinse it well
> 
> Doesnt compact...at all. It's really great to work with. I love it


Just wanted to add my $.02 on this. Rinsing this stuff is critical, and you're going to need to do several rinse steps, with the final being with some dawn thrown in the mix. There is some kind of oil residue on the sand that you need to get rid of before you put it in your tank, unless you like an oil slick on the surface.


----------



## PEdwards

Burr,

What if you did Buce walls instead of moss? There's nothing saying the planted walls must be moss, just planted. I used to use A. nana a lot for the back and/or sides when practicing the Dutch style. I don't see any reason why your Beautiful Buces wouldn't work. Plus, just think of all the different kinds you could keep! >

Someday I'll have another tank with the right dimensions for true Dutch aquascaping...someday. For now I'm going to be slumming it with the NA crowd for a spell while practicing that style. I need to get better at blending the mid- and foreground, and not planting with straight lines again. 

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## Sean W.

still using t5ho?


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## burr740

Sean W. said:


> still using t5ho?


T5 fa life! :red_mouth

It's a 6 bulb Hydrofarm unit that's going on the new tank. Ive had it on here for a couple of months, raised up a bit.










Back to front (L-R)

Wavepoint UG
6500K
ATI purple
3000K
TrueLumen Flora
Wavepoint UG


On the new set up probably replace one of the Wavepoints with another 6500K or TL Flora, and change up the order some. For now it helps keep par down to a more manageable...

120 at the substrate :icon_eek:


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## Sean W.

Christ, look at that thing! I'm looking for a lighting solution for my high tech 75... I've narrowed it down between the 48" fluval led plant 2.0 and the 48" beamswork snake eyes quad 3w fixture. The most demanding plant I'll have is dhg Belem.


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## burr740

Sean W. said:


> Christ, look at that thing! I'm looking for a lighting solution for my high tech 75... I've narrowed it down between the 48" fluval led plant 2.0 and the 48" beamswork snake eyes quad 3w fixture. The most demanding plant I'll have is dhg Belem.


That Beamswork is all 6500K right? Color rendition is going to be very poor with that by itself. I'd look for something with more red and blue mixed in, emphasis on the red. You could add something like a Monster Ray if you didnt mind spending the extra $$

The Fluval looks pretty nice, Ive actually been thinking about one of those for a 20gal.

My current problem with LEDs is getting both the power and the color in one without blowing a small fortune. Even with some of the very expensive models the nice color just isnt there. 

Those hanging box type made for reefs are intriguing, whatever you call them. Full spectrum, dimmable with adjustable RGB chanels, MarsAqua is one brand I think, can search on e-bay. They are relatively inexpensive. 

Cant remember where but just the other day on another forum a guy had one on a plant tank, it looked pretty sweet.


----------



## bpb

We refer to those as "black boxes". Super cheap (by high powered lighting standards). They're really heavy on the blue end for a planted tank but you could probably get away with using only the second channel which contains all the white, red, green, violet, and some of the lighter 460-470 nm blues, and really keep channel one down low, or off, which is all 450nm royal blue typically.  They can be had for less than $100 a piece. Not a bad deal. I love t5ho though. 


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## Sean W.

I just want to crawl into a ball and cry while trying to figure out what light to get...


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## bpb

LEDs have really over complexified things with the options available. Nothing wrong with just getting a t5ho fixture for plant growing off of Amazon and sticking some decent bulbs in it. That'll literally work as good or better than any other choice out there. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## burr740

Sean W. said:


> I just want to crawl into a ball and cry while trying to figure out what light to get...





bpb said:


> LEDs have really over complexified things with the options available. Nothing wrong with just getting a t5ho fixture for plant growing off of Amazon and sticking some decent bulbs in it. That'll literally work as good or better than any other choice out there.


^This!

$99 and comes with two 6400K bulbs - HTG Supply - GrowBright 4 Foot 2 Lamp High Output T5

$10 for a good reddish bulb - T-5 HO Aquarium Lighting: T-5 HO Freshwater TrueLumen Flora

Use one of each, and you have a spare 6400K


Raised 8" above a 75gal will put you in the 70-80 par range, good spread and awesome color

It's what you see here











Hydroponic brands are exponentially cheaper than aquarium brand products. 

Amazon has similar units, Hydrofarm's Agrobrite is another good one (what Im using on this tank). 

If money was no object I go with one of ATI's dimmable models. Sigh...


----------



## Greggz

Burr740, I was going to PM you to get your thoughts on LED's, so I am glad to see you discuss it here.

I'm with you, and maybe it's old school, but good old T5HO's seem to still work pretty good.

Right now I use a convoluted combination of T5's and LED's on a bunch of timers to go from Moonlight, soft viewing light, and higher intensity light. When they come out with a plug and play LED that will do everything (color control, complete ramp up/ramp down, etc. etc.) and be easily programmed via PC, I might bite the bullet. But every time I start researching them I find a weakness.

Is that 6 bulb set up the one you are going to run on the 120G? I think my 120G is the same size as yours, 60" x 18" x 26". The tank is a little deeper than most and I've wondered if 6 would be better to get higher par at the substrate?

While we are the subject, what do you use to get your par readings? I'd really to see where I am at on mine but don't really know how to go about it for a reasonable price?


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## burr740

Greggz said:


> Burr740, I was going to PM you to get your thoughts on LED's, so I am glad to see you discuss it here.
> 
> I'm with you, and maybe it's old school, but good old T5HO's seem to still work pretty good.
> 
> Right now I use a convoluted combination of T5's and LED's on a bunch of timers to go from Moonlight, soft viewing light, and higher intensity light. When they come out with a plug and play LED that will do everything (color control, complete ramp up/ramp down, etc. etc.) and be easily programmed via PC, I might bite the bullet. But every time I start researching them I find a weakness.
> 
> Is that 6 bulb set up the one you are going to run on the 120G? I think my 120G is the same size as yours, 60" x 18" x 26". The tank is a little deeper than most and I've wondered if 6 would be better to get higher par at the substrate?
> 
> While we are the subject, what do you use to get your par readings? I'd really to see where I am at on mine but don't really know how to go about it for a reasonable price?


Yeah I got the 6 bulb to run on the new 120gal, it's 48 x 24 x 24.

Couldnt wait to try out different bulb combos so I put it on here >

This unit is 18" wide, same as the tank, too wide really. If your tank is 18" a 4 bulb would probably be better. Still be more than enough light.

On this tank I used to have the 4 bulb unit 9" above, about 27'' from the substrate. PAR was in the 125-130 range (at the sub) 

Having it 6"-8" above your 26" tank would have you in the 100 range if I had to guess. 80-100 is pretty much ideal imo, plenty for anything and a lot more manageable...and forgiving of mistakes.

The type of bulbs can also make a big difference. The deep reds and purples and blues have lower par than say, the typical 6500K, or the Trulumen Flora and 3000K.


Totally agree with you about LEDs, at least for larger tanks. Ive yet to see one that has everything I'd want at a reasonable price, or even at a non reasonable price for that matter. 


For PAR readings I was fortunate enough to snag one of @Hoppy 's 2015 models before he stopped making them. It's a converted lux meter with the sensor changed out, and then calibrated for PAR. At least that is my basic understanding, probably some additional wizardry involved.

Not sure there's an alternative other than buying an Apogee or whatever. Frankly Id be lost without one having all these tanks and different lights. If not for this jewel I'd probably just bite the bullet.


----------



## bpb

Where do you find those wavepoint and 3000k bulbs?


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## burr740

bpb said:


> Where do you find those wavepoint and 3000k bulbs?


The Wavepoints I got from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Wavepoint-Universal-Replacement-Aquarium-54-watt/dp/B00FQ87DP6

Actually lucked out and found a 4-pak on sale for $31. Not sure what that was about, it's no longer there.

They are extremely red, and extremely blue. By itself has this weird, and to me, a very unpleasant purple hue. 

It's not a good look with only 6500Ks, for example. Needs help on both ends of the spectrum to look right. Although Im sure it's great for plants and corals either way.


3000Ks are usually available form hydroponic suppliers. When I bought the 4 bulb unit it came with a choice of bulbs, so I got two of those and two 6500Ks.

Here's one from the same place I bought the light. Think mine is a Plantmax though - Spectralux T5 54 Watt HO Lamp 4 ft Red 3000K for Sale - Reviews, Prices, & More - GrowersHouse . 

It's an absolute beast too, by far the highest PAR bulb in there. 

Also is extremely warm, as you can imagine. Definitely needs something very cool to soften the look - cooler than 10.000K, think ATI purple or blue. 

I actually ran an old blue actinic in the mix when I first got it. That was a VERY good look. ATI Purple does the job now, probably a little better for plants.


----------



## bpb

Thanks for the info man. Not to derail your thread. Just enjoy discussing lighting. I've been using 4 t5ho over my 75 gallon in some cheaper fixtures but they do the job. Combo has been 2 giesemann tropics (6500k) and two giesemann super flora (their pink/red bulb). Picking up a used BuildmyLED Dutch XB fixture this weekend at a price I cannot refuse, but intend on using two t5ho bulbs to still supplement it and am undecided on what bulbs to use. I have an ati purple + here I can use but the only other spare bulbs I have are reef bulbs. Not sure what to pick up that would go good with the BML light


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## burr740

bpb said:


> Thanks for the info man. Not to derail your thread. Just enjoy discussing lighting. I've been using 4 t5ho over my 75 gallon in some cheaper fixtures but they do the job. Combo has been 2 giesemann tropics (6500k) and two giesemann super flora (their pink/red bulb). Picking up a used BuildmyLED Dutch XB fixture this weekend at a price I cannot refuse, but intend on using two t5ho bulbs to still supplement it and am undecided on what bulbs to use. I have an ati purple + here I can use but the only other spare bulbs I have are reef bulbs. Not sure what to pick up that would go good with the BML light


No worries man. I enjoy discussing anything here, and lighting is one of my favorite subjects! 

One of my favorite bulbs is the TrueLumen Flora. That would be my choice if I could only use one bulb in combo with 6500k, hell maybe even by itself. Just the perfect blend of nice reddish tones, strong bulb too. Probably similar to the Geishman Flora but Ive never had one of those. 

10 bucks at Dr Fosters, cant beat that


However, if the BML is such that you need to pull the spectrum hard one way or another, then something else might work better.


----------



## Ben Belton

bpb said:


> LEDs have really over complexified things with the options available. Nothing wrong with just getting a t5ho fixture for plant growing off of Amazon and sticking some decent bulbs in it. That'll literally work as good or better than any other choice out there.


This is so spot on.


----------



## sohankpatel

I am seriously considering swapping my Ray 2 for a 4 or 6 bulb hydroponic t5HO unit, simply because it offers higher PAR and better color rendition (Bulb color dependent). My ray2 is terrible for colors, and the PAR is about ~60 on the sub, so it is OK, but some plants just dont do well for me.


----------



## Nlewis

sohankpatel said:


> I am seriously considering swapping my Ray 2 for a 4 or 6 bulb hydroponic t5HO unit, simply because it offers higher PAR and better color rendition (Bulb color dependent). My ray2 is terrible for colors, and the PAR is about ~60 on the sub, so it is OK, but some plants just dont do well for me.


I have as well, but there aren't to many options out there for 3 foot t5 fixtures.


----------



## burr740

PEdwards said:


> Burr,
> 
> What if you did Buce walls instead of moss? There's nothing saying the planted walls must be moss, just planted. I used to use A. nana a lot for the back and/or sides when practicing the Dutch style. I don't see any reason why your Beautiful Buces wouldn't work. Plus, just think of all the different kinds you could keep! >


As if I didnt have enough to think about already....you just HAD to say something like that! :icon_eek:

The back I dont think would be be much of a problem. Come down maybe 6" -8" with a moss wall, and maybe a plant or two. Seen some Trident Java Fern that looked really good up high, I believe in one of the top Dutch tanks last year. 

That leaves both sides. The tank sits in the right hand corner of a room. The right side is actually painted black. No problem covering that side up, and Buces are a great idea! May do that regardless.

But the left side is partially visible to the room, and will be even more so with the new tank because it sits out further. I like being able to see inside that part of the tank, really rather it not be completely covered.

Guess I'll know more when the tank is actually in place, see how it looks and imagine that end covered. 

You've given me some very exciting ideas to think about though. Thank you!! 



sohankpatel said:


> I am seriously considering swapping my Ray 2 for a 4 or 6 bulb hydroponic t5HO unit, simply because it offers higher PAR and better color rendition (Bulb color dependent). My ray2 is terrible for colors, and the PAR is about ~60 on the sub, so it is OK, but some plants just dont do well for me.


For a 55 go with the 2 bulb unit I linked earlier. That'd be perfect.

The 4 and 6 bulbs would be wider than your tank, and WAY too much light.

Or you could just add a Monster Ray - https://www.amazon.com/Finnex-Monster-Aquarium-Enhancing-36-Inch/dp/B00BP6QGGA

That's their "color enhancing" unit, tons of red. I think it's actually meant to run along with Ray2s and the like. 



Nlewis said:


> I have as well, but there aren't to many options out there for 3 foot t5 fixtures.


Not sure about the cheaper hydroponic brands, but ATI and AquaticLife both make very nice units in the $300-$500 range.

Bulbs wouldnt be too hard to find, just have to look harder since they are less common. Im pretty sure ATI and Geishman bulbs all come in 36", so does TrueLumen Flora and Zoo-meds (also damn good bulbs for the money, made in Germany)

Alternatively, adding a Monster Ray might be something to think about for your tank as well. Ive never used one mind you, just going off what Ive read.


----------



## Sean W.

burr740 said:


> ^This!
> 
> $99 and comes with two 6400K bulbs - HTG Supply - GrowBright 4 Foot 2 Lamp High Output T5
> 
> $10 for a good reddish bulb - T-5 HO Aquarium Lighting: T-5 HO Freshwater TrueLumen Flora
> 
> Use one of each, and you have a spare 6400K
> 
> 
> Raised 8" above a 75gal will put you in the 70-80 par range, good spread and awesome color
> 
> It's what you see here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hydroponic brands are exponentially cheaper than aquarium brand products.
> 
> Amazon has similar units, Hydrofarm's Agrobrite is another good one (what Im using on this tank).
> 
> If money was no object I go with one of ATI's dimmable models. Sigh...



Dual t5ho would be enough for my 75?


----------



## burr740

Sean W. said:


> Dual t5ho would be enough for my 75?


With DHG the most demanding plant, for sure.

Ive got that exact unit with those same bulbs over a 50 gal. It's 22" from the substrate, par in the upper 90s (at the sub)

6" above a 75 would be about what, 25-26 inches, depending on the depth of the substrate? Easily be in the 70-80 range.

The only downside would be front to back coverage, there'd be a little less par at the very front or back. You can always cheat it a tad one way or the other. 

Coverage would still be better than only one LED unit. Even one with wide angle lenses (which sacrifice some par) It's not just par at the bottom to consider. With LEDs the top portions of the front and back get less and less light the further away it gets from center. Much less of an issue with fluorescents.

Of course you could get a 4 bulb unit, but I think it would need to be at least 12"-16" above the tank to avoid having extremely high light. These things are powerful!


----------



## burr740

@Sean W.

I put the 2 bulb unit on the 75 and took some par readings, wanted to be sure I was telling you right, and was genuinely curious too.


This is the same fixture I linked earlier, using the bulbs mentioned: One 6400K that came with the unit, and one TrueLumen Flora (which is about 2 years old)





















It's 5" above the tank because that's how tall the diy bracket is, 23" above the substrate.

PAR at the sub:

Dead center - 71

At very front, the 6400K side - 77 (bit surprised this is higher than center)

At very back, the TL Flora side - 55


Also checked the 50 and it's in the low 80s instead of the upper 90s like it was last time I checked. So it's probably time to replace the TL Flora after 2 years. I always run them until they start losing PAR. It is a myth they need replacing every year. Ive got a Zoo-Med Ultra almost 3 years old with big black rings on both ends, still within 10% of it's original PAR. 

Based on the 50's lower than normal reading, using two two fresh bulbs I feel confident that you can add 10-15 to the center and back number, meaning in the 70s to possibly low 80s throughout 

How the tank looks (ignore the messiness)




















So it turns out I was fairly close. Hope this helps.


----------



## Sean W.

burr740 said:


> @Sean W.
> 
> I put the 2 bulb unit on the 75 and took some par readings, wanted to be sure I was telling you right, and was genuinely curious too.
> 
> 
> This is the same fixture I linked earlier, using the bulbs mentioned: One 6400K that came with the unit, and one TrueLumen Flora (which is about 2 years old)
> 
> 
> 
> It's 5" above the tank because that's how tall the diy bracket is, 23" above the substrate.
> 
> PAR at the sub:
> 
> Dead center - 71
> 
> At very front, the 6400K side - 77 (bit surprised this is higher than center)
> 
> At very back, the TL Flora side - 55
> 
> 
> Also checked the 50 and it's in the low 80s instead of the upper 90s like it was last time I checked. So it's probably time to replace the TL Flora after 2 years. I always run them until they start losing PAR. It is a myth they need replacing every year. Ive got a Zoo-Med Ultra almost 3 years old with big black rings on both ends, still within 10% of it's original PAR.
> 
> Based on the 50's lower than normal reading, using two two fresh bulbs I feel confident that you can add 10-15 to the center and back number, meaning in the 70s to possibly low 80s throughout
> 
> How the tank looks (ignore the messiness)
> 
> So it turns out I was fairly close. Hope this helps.


What a huge help youve been! 

I found a Sun Blaze 42 ( 4ft 2 bulb ) on my local Craigslist for $60, brand new, includes two 6500k bulbs! I used a Sun Blaze 44 ( 4ft 4 bulb ) fixture on my 120 and loved it. Like we talked about, I just dont think there is a cost effective LED solution for this setup... and for $60, cant beat it.

I really really appreciate the help!

side note, lets see a pic of those DIY brackets! I need to drum of a bracket solution too, id be interested to see what you came up with.

-Sean


----------



## burr740

Sean W. said:


> What a huge help youve been!
> 
> I found a Sun Blaze 42 ( 4ft 2 bulb ) on my local Craigslist for $60, brand new, includes two 6500k bulbs! I used a Sun Blaze 44 ( 4ft 4 bulb ) fixture on my 120 and loved it. Like we talked about, I just dont think there is a cost effective LED solution for this setup... and for $60, cant beat it.
> 
> I really really appreciate the help!
> 
> side note, lets see a pic of those DIY brackets! I need to drum of a bracket solution too, id be interested to see what you came up with.
> 
> -Sean


Great find! Those units look very nice

For the 2 bulb I bent a piece of stainless steel and pop riveted it to the light. It just sits on the tank. There's some inward tension that keeps it nice and tight, still slides back and forth easy.











The big light is two 1x8s screwed together like this










The width of the tank and light just happened to work out, but the basic design is easy to adapt if it doesnt, as long as it's close. 

1x6s should work fine for a narrower 2-bulb unit.

Not the sexiest thing in the world, painted black doesnt look bad though. It's nice being able to slide the light back and forth.


----------



## Jaye

I ran a planted+ and a monster ray on my 29 gallon tank. It grew hairgrass just fine, and the color was very nice.


----------



## Sean W.

burr740 said:


> Great find! Those units look very nice
> 
> For the 2 bulb I bent a piece of stainless steel and pop riveted it to the light. It just sits on the tank. There's some inward tension that keeps it nice and tight, still slides back and forth easy.
> 
> 
> The big light is two 1x8s screwed together like this
> 
> 
> The width of the tank and light just happened to work out, but the basic design is easy to adapt if it doesnt, as long as it's close.
> 
> 1x6s should work fine for a narrower 2-bulb unit.
> 
> Not the sexiest thing in the world, painted black doesnt look bad though. It's nice being able to slide the light back and forth.



That looks good, I have a buddy who has a 3d printer, maybe we can conjure up something more elegant with that. :bounce:


----------



## Sean W.

What does 2x 6500k bulbs put your par at? Would it be more or less than that red bulb?

-Sean


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## burr740

Sean W. said:


> What does 2x 6500k bulbs put your par at? Would it be more or less than that red bulb?
> 
> -Sean


More. Reds are generally lower in par, although the TL Flora is more powerful than many other red types, still not as bright as the typical 6500K

The biggest issue you'll find with only 6500Ks is poor color rendition, that's where the red bulbs help, good for plants too

Here's a few individual tests that might be useful

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/762202-thread-t5ho-bulb-comparisons-2.html

(I should really update that thread)


----------



## Greggz

Sean W. said:


> That looks good, I have a buddy who has a 3d printer, maybe we can conjure up something more elegant with that. :bounce:


I work with 3D printers on a daily basis. Let me know what you have in mind and I can make that happen.

Burr740 sorry for the tangent from your thread.


----------



## burr740

No problem @Greggz 

Hey print me out some Syngonanthus that wont melt when you get a chance, dozen or so, 8"-10" tall.

Thanks!


----------



## BettaBettas

beautiful aquarium!


----------



## Sean W.

burr740 said:


> More. Reds are generally lower in par, although the TL Flora is more powerful than many other red types, still not as bright as the typical 6500K
> 
> The biggest issue you'll find with only 6500Ks is poor color rendition, that's where the red bulbs help, good for plants too
> 
> Here's a few individual tests that might be useful
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/762202-thread-t5ho-bulb-comparisons-2.html
> 
> (I should really update that thread)


Thanks for the feedback burr, you have been a massive help. I'm so glad I don't have to research lights anymore and finally have a solution!




Greggz said:


> I work with 3D printers on a daily basis. Let me know what you have in mind and I can make that happen.
> 
> As a point of interest, here is a recent 3D printed model I have been working with.
> View attachment 687217
> 
> It's a crazy wild world isn't it??
> 
> Burr740 sorry for the tangent from your thread.




Greggz, keep an eye out for a PM in the next couple days! I might have to take you up on this!

Anyway, getting this thread back on topic, Burr! FTS! GOOOOOOO :bounce:


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## Sean W.

Got my sun blaze 42!

Dividing the lumens by 70 to get a ball park par reading, I'm at around 90 with the fixture sitting on the rim. I'm going to lift it around 4". Add 3"of substrate, should put me right around 80. Perfect


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## Greggz

Burr740 I was just going back reading through this thread, and I noted you posted a picture of that new 120G on 7-19......so now it's 11-23.............the unveil has to be coming soon, right??

Personally I have no patience and that thing would have been up on 7-20!!! You have some serious patience. 

Looking forward to the next update.


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## burr740

Greggz said:


> Burr740 I was just going back reading through this thread, and I noted you posted a picture of that new 120G on 7-19......so now it's 11-23.............the unveil has to be coming soon, right??
> 
> Personally I have no patience and that thing would have been up on 7-20!!! You have some serious patience.
> 
> Looking forward to the next update.


I know right, four freaking months!

Yes it's finally up and running, been planted for about 2 weeks. Will make a new journal probably this weekend sometime.

Teaser :red_mouth













*R.I.P. 75 Gallon* 


Going....











Gone


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## Opare

All great journeys must end someday.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PortalMasteryRy

Awww it's gone! 

Are you following the same fertilization or water parameters from your 75g?


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## Immortal1

burr740 said:


> I know right, four freaking months!
> 
> Yes it's finally up and running, been planted for about 2 weeks. Will make a new journal probably this weekend sometime.
> 
> Teaser :red_mouth


Looking forward to how you setup the new tank - I'm sure it will be impressive as always. Sorry to see the 75 go though :crying:


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## Tanks!

So SORRY to see this tank end. It was SO inspiring to me. But, at least we have pictures, and the 120 to look forward to! Hey, Burr, you should make it easy on all your loyal fans and post a link here to the new build thread for the 120! (Just sayin'... don't want to miss it!)


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## burr740

Thanks guys 

Here's a shot of the new tank. Sort of a hodgepodge right now as Im trying out several species. Over the next few weeks will cut the list down and fatten up the groups better. Also need to work a Laganandra in somewhere. Im outta space already!!










Will link the new journal if I ever get around to making it :red_mouth



PortalMasteryRy said:


> Awww it's gone!
> 
> Are you following the same fertilization or water parameters from your 75g?


Basically the same. Roughly EI macros and very low micros, a little extra Mn, nosebleed CO2.

Started playing with urea about a week ago, .2 ppm daily in the 50 and 120. Havent seen much difference so far. May need to dose more but I wanted to take it very slow. 

If you are still offering the service I want you to run some test for me here in a couple of weeks. Curious to see what the actual Fe and Mn levels are, and a few other things while we're at it.




Immortal1 said:


> Looking forward to how you setup the new tank - I'm sure it will be impressive as always. Sorry to see the 75 go though :crying:


Thanks man. Built a new reactor. The main pipe is 24" x 3"




















Works great and now I can run the Hydor virtually wide open. Pumping roughly the same rate of CO2 as the 75 was getting with the same PH drop. So it's a lot more efficient than the previous contraption.

Still have to close the valve slightly or a very fine mist comes out. Closing it just barely there's no mist at all. It's amazing what a just a little bit of pressure can do. Guess it doesnt take much to squeeze out a tiny micro bubble.


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## burr740

@LRJ Here's the compact hygro showing the wild colors I was telling you about, recently pulled off a mother plant.

Im always hoping it'll stay this way but it goes back to green after a couple of weeks.


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## Greggz

WOW........that's the first thought that came to mind....just....WOW!

Seeing your tank makes me want to step up my game. An inspiration for sure. Not many are a "plant whisperer" like you. 

Nice work and looking forward to the new journey!


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## MUTigers

Absolutely amazing tank!

What is the plant in the front middle, green with red tops? It's the one in the teaser picture.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Immortal1

Nice job on the reactor! Good to hear it is more efficient than the previous model. Did you end up putting bio balls in it?
Also, new tank layout is still impressive - even if it is not complete yet!


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## burr740

Greggz said:


> WOW........that's the first thought that came to mind....just....WOW!
> 
> Seeing your tank makes me want to step up my game. An inspiration for sure. Not many are a "plant whisperer" like you.
> 
> Nice work and looking forward to the new journey!


Thanks man. Looking at it makes me want to step my game up too! 

Feels like Im dealing with a mild case of "Scaper's Block" haha



MUTigers said:


> Absolutely amazing tank!
> 
> What is the plant in the front middle, green with red tops? It's the one in the teaser picture.


That's Ammania sp bonsai



Immortal1 said:


> Nice job on the reactor! Good to hear it is more efficient than the previous model. Did you end up putting bio balls in it?
> Also, new tank layout is still impressive - even if it is not complete yet!


Nothing inside this one. I may split the co2 between both filters at some point. If I do another one gonna try going in the side with an undersized hole. See if that is truly better.

Probably just leave it though, Im pretty happy with it


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## Sean W.

What plant is this circled white?


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## burr740

Sean W. said:


> What plant is this circled white?


Rotala mac 'variegated'

It's pinker than regular mac, and harder to please. 

Only had it for a couple of weeks (thanks @Saxa Tilly ! ) It's doing well so far, got a few more in the 50. 

Thinking it might be too similar in color to the variegated AR to have both on the same side. May go back to the regular AR.... but that's a tough choice.


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## Sean W.

Does Mac stand for Macandra?


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## burr740

Yep


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## Sean W.

Its hard to keep up with you kids and your hip lingo!


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## Saxa Tilly

Greggz said:


> WOW........that's the first thought that came to mind....just....WOW!
> 
> Seeing your tank makes me want to step up my game. An inspiration for sure. Not many are a "plant whisperer" like you.
> 
> Nice work and looking forward to the new journey!


Amen to that!

I'm always amazed at the crisp healthiness of Burr's plants. And the lack of crud, detritus, and algae. Takes a lot of elbow grease and gizmogery. 

My Hygro got red like that in my Dutch after a power outage reset the BML controller back from 100% intensity from 50 or 60. In a few days, the tops got red. This reduces leaf size too. With medium light, my compacts get about 8"+ leaves. Some compact!

Bump:


burr740 said:


> @LRJ Here's the compact hygro showing the wild colors I was telling you about, recently pulled off a mother plant.
> 
> Im always hoping it'll stay this way but it goes back to green after a couple of weeks.


The AR variegated you sent me are growing. Time to thin out a little. But the damn leaves (in my EI Dutch) are super wavy/curly and not flat like this. It'd be a prettier plant if I could keep the leaves flat. It's a nutrient thing. My regular AR flattened its leaves when I went to 25% EI traces down from full EI traces. But that same reduction is not flattening the leaves of the Variegated. 

The emersed AR Var in the backyard tub (Miracle Gro soil) has small flat leaves. I have not grown it in a low-tech, low-fert condition to know if the leaves flatten out there. 

I hear that this plant does not like being moved or uprooted. I am about to test that notion. Regular AR did not care how much I moved it.


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## LRJ

burr740 said:


> @LRJ Here's the compact hygro showing the wild colors I was telling you about, recently pulled off a mother plant.
> 
> Im always hoping it'll stay this way but it goes back to green after a couple of weeks.


That's crazy! I haven't seen anything like that in mine, just the paleness after topping and replanting, but now it has reverted to normal color.

The new tank is looking great! Plants seem super healthy and stunning as usual. Many of the old staples from the 75, but a few new species too, it looks like.


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## Greggz

Saxa Tilly said:


> Amen to that!
> 
> I'm always amazed at the crisp healthiness of Burr's plants. And the lack of crud, detritus, and algae. Takes a lot of elbow grease and gizmogery.


After everything I have read and studied for the past year about planted tanks and now I have to add "gizmogery"?? Will the learning curve never end?? 

Burr740 when is the gizmogery lesson starting??? I knew you had a secret!!:wink2::wink2:


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## burr740

Saxa Tilly said:


> The AR variegated you sent me are growing. Time to thin out a little. But the damn leaves (in my EI Dutch) are super wavy/curly and not flat like this. It'd be a prettier plant if I could keep the leaves flat. It's a nutrient thing. My regular AR flattened its leaves when I went to 25% EI traces down from full EI traces. But that same reduction is not flattening the leaves of the Variegated.
> 
> The emersed AR Var in the backyard tub (Miracle Gro soil) has small flat leaves. I have not grown it in a low-tech, low-fert condition to know if the leaves flatten out there.
> 
> I hear that this plant does not like being moved or uprooted. I am about to test that notion. Regular AR did not care how much I moved it.


Ive yet to get it perfectly flat either, only phases of being close.

Never seen much of a problem with moving either variety. Sand is very root friendly though, so that might have something to do with it.

These in the 120 have literally been moved 10 times in the past two weeks, as have most of the other midgrounds, sometimes only an inch one way or the other lol

You should put one of the variegated in the kill tank and see how it grows


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## PEdwards

dooooooooooood, that looks nice!


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## LRJ

burr740 said:


> Ive yet to get it perfectly flat either, only phases of being close.
> 
> Never seen much of a problem with moving either variety. Sand is very root friendly though, so that might have something to do with it.
> 
> These in the 120 have literally been moved 10 times in the past two weeks, as have most of the other midgrounds, sometimes only an inch one way or the other lol
> 
> You should put one of the variegated in the kill tank and see how it grows


Curious, when you move a plant, do you trim the roots, or leave them completely intact? I usually trim short, but I wonder if it'd be better not to mess with them.


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## Sean W.

LRJ said:


> Curious, when you move a plant, do you trim the roots, or leave them completely intact?


You want to leave the roots as intact as possible.


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## SingAlongWithTsing

@burr740 your tank and Tom's are seriously making me want to switch to T5HO on my next tank lol


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## Saxa Tilly

burr740 said:


> Ive yet to get it perfectly flat either, only phases of being close.
> 
> Never seen much of a problem with moving either variety. Sand is very root friendly though, so that might have something to do with it.
> 
> These in the 120 have literally been moved 10 times in the past two weeks, as have most of the other midgrounds, sometimes only an inch one way or the other lol
> 
> You should put one of the variegated in the kill tank and see how it grows


AR Variegated is to the left and AR Mini to the right. This is a pic from the side of the tank. I suspected that AR Variegated would look funky, so I put regular AR Mini up front and AR Var in the back. Clearly, that was a smart move. AR Mini is much flatter-leaved and cleaner looking than the Var. FWIW, I am dosing about 1/8 tsp each of CSM+B, Fe DTPA and Fe Gluc into the 180 gal tank every other day. Used to dose 1/4 tsp of all three. The only plant that complained after the trace reduction is Pantanal, but that could be due to other reasons. Rotala Mac Var partially un-stunted (went from 95% of stems stunted to about 25% stems stunted) after trace reduction, but again, that could be due to several other reasons.


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## burr740

PEdwards said:


> dooooooooooood, that looks nice!


Thanks, man. The goal is to eventually evolve closer to a traditional Dutch, less species and bigger groups obviously. Not sure it will ever get there. Still too much a student of the game to go all in with it. There's a lot I need to learn about the growing side of things. That's easier to do with a ton of different species.

Still contemplating a planted/moss back. 



LRJ said:


> Curious, when you move a plant, do you trim the roots, or leave them completely intact? I usually trim short, but I wonder if it'd be better not to mess with them.


Ive always read that it's better to trim short, that it helps stimulate new growth. Usually I only do it if the existing roots are going to get in the way of replanting.

With ARs there usually a section or two of bottom stem that's too long to go back in, so that gets pinched off, along with whatever roots. 

The Hygro compact doesnt care what you do in my experience. It can have all or none, or chopped in half, doesnt matter.

Also done it both ways with Erio Polaris, never noticed a difference. 3-4 of these I snipped the roots off about an inch long, simply because it'd be a pain to replant. The rest were left intact.



SingAlongWithTsing said:


> @*burr740* your tank and Tom's are seriously making me want to switch to T5HO on my next tank lol


He put it well the other day



> Nature style is fine for LED's. Red fanatics, not so much.
> 
> 
> How many bulb ATI fixture is ideal for a 120p? - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report





Saxa Tilly said:


> AR Variegated is to the left and AR Mini to the right. This is a pic from the side of the tank. I suspected that AR Variegated would look funky, so I put regular AR Mini up front and AR Var in the back. Clearly, that was a smart move. AR Mini is much flatter-leaved and cleaner looking than the Var. FWIW, I am dosing about 1/8 tsp each of CSM+B, Fe DTPA and Fe Gluc into the 180 gal tank every other day. Used to dose 1/4 tsp of all three. The only plant that complained after the trace reduction is Pantanal, but that could be due to other reasons. Rotala Mac Var partially un-stunted (went from 95% of stems stunted to about 25% stems stunted) after trace reduction, but again, that could be due to several other reasons.


That's what my regular used to look like with higher micros. Pinch off a couple of the nicer little side shoots and plant them in the kill tank. bet it does a lot better.


* For anyone confused, "kill tank" refers to Saxa's experimental tank, which he is graciously documenting on TBR. Just like his 180 journal, it is WELL worth the read!

Rotala Kill Tank - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report


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## APynckel

Burr,

Been debating switching over to T5's now for a couple months. These LED's aren't cutting the mustard. Do you know of anyone that makes an 18" T5 setup / decent bulbs?


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## Saxa Tilly

burr740 said:


> Ive yet to get it perfectly flat either, only phases of being close.
> 
> Never seen much of a problem with moving either variety. Sand is very root friendly though, so that might have something to do with it.
> 
> These in the 120 have literally been moved 10 times in the past two weeks, as have most of the other midgrounds, sometimes only an inch one way or the other lol
> 
> You should put one of the variegated in the kill tank and see how it grows



Update on AR Variegated and wavy/twisted leaves and the plants' tolerance for being moved:

1. AR Variegated leaves in the very-low-trace 'Kill Tank' are now smooth and flat after being moved from the higher trace Dutch tank. There are several difference between the two tanks, but it looks like it needs even lower traces than AR Mini (in my tanks, anyway) to straighten out leaves. YMMV. 
2. All my AR grow in high traces, but I don't like the way the leaves look at high traces. 
3. I'd read on Facebook that AR (especially mini and Var) do not like being moved. That's not been my observation. I can move them around like chess pieces.


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## freshwater1

That's a very nice that you have there, Burr! I could never get my AR that pink/red when I had a few years back. 


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## burr740

120 Gal Journal - http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1117642-120-gal-dutchy-freestyle.html


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## ThePlantedMedic

Hi Burr;

Looking into a new light for my 75, currently have one 2 bulb AquaticLife T5HO. Thinking of adding a Fluval 2.0 when I rescape in the next few weeks. Do you think that will suffice? I will be running CO2 and starting EI dosing again. Thanks.


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## Tejas Kadam

really appreciate good work


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