# Hair Algae - Nitrates & Phosphates



## SNPiccolo5 (Oct 6, 2002)

Hey I like your name! Anyway....

Algae is aka "unbalanced". Something is unbalanced in your aquarium. If you have a pressurized system (I am guessing you do since you get 15 ppm), I would put the CO2 up to maybe 20 ppm, since you definitely have enough light for that CO2 level.

If your tank is heavily planted and the plants are growing fine, you should not have a nitrate problem. This is what I would do...

1.) Increase CO2 levels to 20-25 ppm and see how plants do.
2.) Check your nitrate levels, 10 ppm is ideal.
3.) Put some Jobes Spikes under the substrate near the amazon swords and observe.

This is what I would do, and my guess it that with 4 wpg, you don't have enough CO2, but plants should be fine with 15 ppm.... Does you fertalizer have and Pottasium in it; that is a vital nutrient for plants?

-Tim


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## m.lemay (Jul 28, 2002)

I'm with SNPicollo on getting your CO2 levels up. Most people I've talked to with your lighting intensity run 30ppm CO2. Keep your lighting cycle to about 11 hrs/ day. I don't see why you would need a denitrator, thats what the plants are for. If your tank isn't already heavily planted I would add more plants. Plants also need phosphate to thrive. Zero phosphates will result in zero growth and nutrient difficiencies. You didn't say what type of algae was growing on the glass. I'm gonna assume it was "greenspot" algae. Greenspot algae is pretty much unavoidable. I think everybody on this board gets it on the glass of thier tanks and a simple monthly glass scraping will take care of that. I'm thinking, by severely limiting nutrients to the higher plants in your tank you're severely limiting thier ability to compete with the algae in your tank. At 4 watts per gallon the nutrient requirements of your plants are pretty high. By not keeping your plants healthy the algae is taking the opportunity to use what ever nutrients they can scrounge. Algae can thrive on just one nutrient while plants require a balanced diet of all the macro and micro nutrients. My advice is to do several 25% water changes this week to get your tank balanced again. Get rid of the denitrator and phosgard, crank up the CO2 to 30ppm and ,if your tank isn't already heavily planted, get some more plants, and cut the lighting down to 11 hrs/day. Oh, and make sure you do water changes at least 25% once every 2 weeks to replenish micro nutrients and get the water balanced. Once a week is probably better. I'm not a big fan of water changes either, but I know that my tank inhabitants love them. Every time I give my tank a water change my plants reward me with renewed color and vitality and my fish dart about like its mardi gras. Hope that helps!


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## bwiser (Nov 24, 2002)

have you tested your tap water for phosphate? 
I'm not sure if i've ever heard about the bacteria needing phosphate? Its possible, but all I knew was they needed oxygen and food (ammonia for nitrosomas/ nitrite for nitrobater)
I tried a denitrifying substrate set-up that i'd learnt from them reef aquariums folks in a planted tank (25gal.) one time. The plants didn't seem to like the NO Nitrate conditions too good!
I haven't done anything with swords yet, but i've read alot about adding Jobes plant sticks at there roots to help them out.
I'm fairly new here and to useing forums, or i'd probably link you to some other pages here... but if you type jobes in the search you'll probably find alot of talk about them.
david


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## lanstar (Nov 29, 2002)

Thanks, folks, for all the good information.

Yes, the CO2 injection is pressurized. 

I'll pull the Phos-guard, and (sniff, sniff - six weeks of break-in down the drain) turn off the denitrator.  

I'm fertilizing with Duplaplant tabs at water changes and Duplaplant 24 daily. I bought a box of each before I discovered that there were much less expensive alternatives (aka PMDD, Yamato Green, etc.). I don't know the exact nutrient makeup of the Dupla tablets. The paperwork doesn't say. 

I've got test kits for CO2 (good quality Lamotte), Nitrate (high range - el cheap-o), Iron (good quality, low range Lamotte), and the standard GH, KH, ammonia, nitrite stuff. I can't find a phosphate test kit locally but I have ordered one at an on-line pet store. I need a better nitrate test as well. One that will read below 20 ppm.

I've read up on the Jobes spikes and I'll go searching for some of the appropriate ones this weekend.

In the mean time, I'll start doing partial water changes, and run the CO2 levels up 5 or so ppm at a time and see if the plants begin to perl more vigourously.

I'll let you all know how things go.

Thanks again to you all for the very helpful responses!

Tim P.


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## SNPiccolo5 (Oct 6, 2002)

The best type of spike for Jobes is the ferns and palms, it is the one with really low phosphates. Others are good, but the ferns and palms are probably the best. 

-Tim


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## lanstar (Nov 29, 2002)

Well, I did another 20% water change, turned of the denitrator, added in some fertilizer tabs and PMDD and some supplimental iron (it was a bit low too) and turned the CO2 controller from a pH setpoint of 7.6 down to 7.3 (which means it comes on at 7.3 and goes off at 7.25).

One of the Echinodorus barthii is putting off a solid column of bubbles about 1/16th of an inch apart as they rise up to the surface. An E. tennellus is doing similarly. The hygrophila difformis (Wisteria) is just sitting back going "Yeah, baby, that's what I like." 

I'm scared to death that I'll wake up tonight and there will be a huge tentacle of hair algae at the foot of the bed that will growl at me and then wrap itself around my ankle and drag me into the tank.

No, I trust you guys, I really do. But I'm taking a flashlight and a ball bat to bed with me tonight... just in case. 

Thanks again...

Tim


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## SNPiccolo5 (Oct 6, 2002)

Lol!! My tank used to have a huge hair algae problem, and it smelled like vegetables! I don't know what eventually stopped it! Since your plants are really showing signs of improvment, the algae should have a lot less food!

-Tim


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## bwiser (Nov 24, 2002)

hard to see it, but....

It's a chart about pH / KH / CO2 relationships. 

http://www.geocities.com/simplemaninnc/co2.html


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## SNPiccolo5 (Oct 6, 2002)

If your KH is 7 and your pH is 7.3.... 3.6*7*10^(7.7.3) would be.... (I love my TI-83) 12 ppm!!! That means your ppm before was 6 ppm! Didn't you say it was 15 ppm? I might (very well) be wrong and made a mistake. How do you calculate your CO2 levels?

-Tim


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## lanstar (Nov 29, 2002)

I've been using a Lamotte CO2 test kit. It uses a direct reading titration method similar to the Tetra KH test except the titrated sample is 15ml instead of 5ml like the KH test. 

For me, the formula method applied to KH as read from a Tetra KH test kit consistently reports lower CO2 concentrations than the Lamotte CO2 test, kit.

Faced with this conflict, I used _impeccable_ logic:

The more expensive test kit (the Lamotte) *must* be more accurate. 

Seriously... I suppose the discrepancy could be due to imperfect calibration of my pH probe - which would throw off the tabular computation method.

bwiser: There is another, easier to read, KH/pH/CO2 chart on the Krib at:

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/kh-ph-co2-chart.html

Tim


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## bwiser (Nov 24, 2002)

I found this one yesterday in my wandering around... actually, from reading and clicking alot of stuff. Starting in Backdraft_Bagel (nick name here) Profile and clicking on His Site
And ended up a this *Chart*


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## bwiser (Nov 24, 2002)

lanstar, its sounds like its coming around 
I used a CO2 a long time ago... didn't seem to work too good. Not sure of the brand. I've heard alot of good about Lamotte kits. But i've also heard about a few things that are really hard to test with much accuracy. It seems like couple of them are CO2 and Iron.
It sounds like CO2 is ready to get out of the water any way it can... slights surface aggitation etc. And with the test kit I used I was transfering water to a vile. Makes me wonder if just adding the water to the vile could have made any difference? 
I've seen one that I believe, stays in the tank all the time, and changes colors?
But, still, i think there's even more variables in the water chemistry the can make a difference as to whether or not the plants can use it.
I haven't bothered with high dollar test kits for a while now. I use the cheaper ones, more often, and look for consistancy.
And do the observation thing 
From your observations, it sounds like a little more CO2 was a good thing
might?? wanna???
:bounce: kick it up another notch! :bounce:


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## lanstar (Nov 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by bwiser_
> lanstar, its sounds like its coming around


Well, I hope so...



> I used a CO2 a long time ago... didn't seem to work too good. Not sure of the brand.


The only problem I've had is needing to replace the pH probe about every 10 months or so. They "wear out" (get sluggish to react).



> I've heard alot of good about Lamotte kits. But i've also heard about a few things that are really hard to test with much accuracy. It seems like couple of them are CO2 and Iron.


Yes. Iron is difficult to test for because it can be in so many forms. The CO2 isn't too hard though. The CO2 test is a titration test (like GH/KH - drop at a time until the color changes). As soon as you add a drop and see even the slightest color change, you're done. I do need a good white background and good lighting to to it accurately though. 



> It sounds like CO2 is ready to get out of the water any way it can... slights surface aggitation etc. And with the test kit I used I was transfering water to a vile. Makes me wonder if just adding the water to the vile could have made any difference?


Yes it can. The "destructions" caution against agitating the test sample. It says to use the syringe and let the test water trickle down the side of the test vial until it is at the desired level. Agitating the water can make the test show a lower CO2 concentration than you actually have. However, my CO2 test results show levels higher than the KH/pH formula would predict. Again, I suspect a not too finely calibrated pH probe as the culprit.



> I've seen one that I believe, stays in the tank all the time, and changes colors?


Yes, I've seen those.



> But, still, i think there's even more variables in the water chemistry the can make a difference as to whether or not the plants can use it.
> I haven't bothered with high dollar test kits for a while now. I use the cheaper ones, more often, and look for consistancy.
> And do the observation thing


Yes, observation is the most sure-fire indicator. I fell in to the "measure everything" trap early on. I finally got to the point that if the plants were bubbling and the fish were looking happy, I just kept doing what I had been doing. In fact, it was when I got "smart" and decided to change things that the hair algae attacked! 



> From your observations, it sounds like a little more CO2 was a good thing
> might?? wanna???
> :bounce: kick it up another notch! :bounce:


I just might do that.  I was kind of going slow to make sure that the water chemistry was back to a balance where the extra CO2 would be used by the plants more than the algae!

I did another water change this evening and removed a TON of hair algae at the same time. I've got this huge bunch of Wisteria in the back of the middle of the tank. This stuff is a thick bunch about 12" wide x 8" deep x 24" tall. I call it the "Don King" plant.  I pulled two double handfuls of hair algae and hair algae coated leaves out of this thing. In any event, it'll be back to the surface in about a week. 

If I could grow everything like I seem to be able to grow Wisteria and Algae, I'd be happy!  I transplanted one shoot of this stiff over to the left end of the tank where things were a little bare. That shoot has grown to completely cover the left end, front to back, to a height of about 8" in 2 weeks.

Anyone want some Wisteria? Send a truck by and I'll load you up. 

Now, if I could just make my Amazon Swords "fart" again, I'd think things were really on the mend... Until recently, they would all release these huge oxygen bubbles right from the base where all the stems enter the gravel... about once every 5 or 10 minutes. Since the leaves started to show dead spots, they've lost their flatulence. 

Thanks again for all your help.

Take care...
Tim


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## m.lemay (Jul 28, 2002)

My wisteria grows like crazy also. I had to remove most of it from my 75 gal. I just keep a little in there now. I put some in my 10 gal guppy tank. And brought a bush 24" long by 8 " wide to my LFS for store credit. They gave me $6 for it. Better than nothing. I also have some foxtail that grows about an inch per day. I chop like 6" off it once a week and replant the tops. I was bringing that stuff to the LFS also but thier tanks don't really have good lighting or co2 so it just rots in the tank. I'm trying to get them to setup a big plant display tank where they could display all thier plants for sale. I even told them I'd set it up for them. Maybe some day they'll take the hint.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Man, I hate that I missed out on this discussion while I was gone! 

I think you guys are on track. Make small adjustments to the CO2, raising it a small amount at a time to see how the fish and plants respond. I've got as much light as you, though, and only have DIY CO2 (resulting in 6-10ppm) and I don't have the hair algae problems you describe.

While raising CO2 levels might get your plants to pearl, to get them to really grow, you need to leave those macronutrients in your water. I use PhosZorb myself, but only occasionally, when phosphate levels get out of control (more than 1.0ppm) due to disturbing a Jobe's stick in the substrate, or a dirty filter or an old piece of driftwood.

The biggest evidence of nutrient starvation is that Amazon Swords. Those things are pigs. If your Nitrates are below 5ppm, they will do horribly. I try to keep mine actually above 10ppm by adding KNO3 (stump remover) weekly.
Those Dupla Tabs are great, and will keep that substrate enriched. Your substrate is getting better with time, not worse. Jobe's sticks will provide even more potassium and much needed Nitrates to those root feeders. It will supply some phosphate as well, but you don't want to get rid of all of it. Let the plants do their job.

You've got a good understanding of higher order plants competing for nutrients against lower algae, you've just got to let it develop into practice in your tank! When nutrient levels drop, plants will suffer. Algae can survive and even thrive in amazingly low nutrient levels. Eliminating nutrients is a bad way to get rid of algae.

Get those good low range NO3 and PO4 test kits, raise CO2 in small increments every few days, and try some low Phosphate fertilizer sticks to get those Swords happy. Good Luck!


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## lanstar (Nov 29, 2002)

Here's a brief update...

Those companies that say their filter carbon is phosphate free... They lie! 

I could add phos-guard and the phosphate level would drop some but it would come right back up to over 2 ppm.

I pulled out the carbon, and replaced it with SeaChem's Renew. I also put in some fresh phos-guard. Phosphate is now at about .7 ppm. The hair algae is looking pissed off and some of the strands have broken free and collected on the filter intake screen. Dare I say it? I think it might be DYING! :bounce:

The higher plants are looking better and making O2 more prolificly. The swords are putting out new leaves.

The Lamotte titrator says CO2 is at 47 ppm.... Which the fish don't seem to mind a bit, btw.

Red Sea low range Nitrate test says Nitrates are ZERO. I'm tempted to VERY CAREFULLY add some Yamato Green-N and see if:
a) Algae stays in check 
b) The Nitrate level comes up to a detectable level
c) The plants (expecially the swords) are happier.

I'm afraid to jinx it by saying that things are on the mend... so I won't.  

(But that's what I think.) <-- Fate can't read what you type in parenthesis. 

Take care...

Tim


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

(I think things might clear up! It's a good thing fate can't read this, either.)


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