# Picked up an xp3 and I have a question



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

idontknow said:


> In the instructions it shows using 2 types of bio media in it. I had picked up some Seachem Matrix Bio Media and am going to be using a sponge prefilter on the intake. This is on a 32 gallon planted tank. Will that be good enough? Do I need to completely fill the basket with the bio media?


I would fill it with bio media.. either the ceramic noodles or get the rena bio stars.. I have both of them in my filters. you can't go wrong with bio filtration.. the more the better


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

Should be enough but I always like to have as much as possible but that is just personal preference.
Didn't it come with the 2 sponges for the bottom tray? they will act as bio also.
Just fill the rest with filter floss for the small bits...


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## White Worm (Aug 22, 2007)

I used the stars in the trays.


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

IMO if you arnt filling the filter to the max you are not utilizing the full potential of the filter.


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## Lnb (Apr 15, 2008)

> IMO if you arnt filling the filter to the max you are not utilizing the full potential of the filter.


Ditto .......... fill to the max. That's why they give you all that room, otherwise it's a box with water being pumped through it. Basically accomplishing little.



> I would fill it with bio media.. either the ceramic noodles or get the rena bio stars.. I have both of them in my filters. you can't go wrong with bio filtration.. the more the better


Yup .......... me too.


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## idontknow (May 9, 2008)

Thank you guys


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## lescarpentier (Feb 2, 2008)

Fill it up.The Seachem media is better than the bio stars,and the ceramic rings are designed as a course mechanical prefilter and should be used only in the first,(lower) tray.If you have any remaining room the cheap filter floss would work great.


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

lescarpentier said:


> Fill it up.The Seachem media is better than the bio stars,and the ceramic rings are designed as a course mechanical prefilter and should be used only in the first,(lower) tray.If you have any remaining room the cheap filter floss would work great.


where did you get that info about the bio rings? the rena specifically says to put it in the middle and top trays. as far as what I have read they are fine for biological filtration.. especially when using the floss and coarse and fine sponges in the bottom.


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## lescarpentier (Feb 2, 2008)

Torpedobarb said:


> where did you get that info about the bio rings? the rena specifically says to put it in the middle and top trays. as far as what I have read they are fine for biological filtration.. especially when using the floss and coarse and fine sponges in the bottom.


You can't always believe everything that you read,especially if it is illogical.

The ceramic rings are designed as a "course pre filter" to catch and filter out larger particles before they get to the finer media.Why use them in the middle and top when they have only a fraction of the surface area to colonize bacteria compared to Seachems matrix for example?


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

I bet if eheim said to do it.. you would


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

and.. why are they sold as a biological media then? I guess the manufacturers don't know what they are making either

there are two types of ceramic rings.. 

these..http://www.aquariumguys.com/flpr.html

and what I am speaking of.... http://www.aquariumguys.com/fluval-biomax-media-500g.html


there is a difference...


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## susantroy1 (Jul 25, 2007)

^^^^

:icon_lol: :hihi: :icon_lol: :hihi: :icon_roll 

You guys make me laugh:thumbsup:


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## lescarpentier (Feb 2, 2008)

Torpedobarb said:


> I bet if eheim said to do it.. you would


LOL You misunderstand me,and my intentions.Eheim does suggest the ceramic rings on the bottom in their Classic and ProII series filters,however my conclusions are based on logic.



Torpedobarb said:


> and.. why are they sold as a biological media then? I guess the manufacturers don't know what they are making either
> 
> there are two types of ceramic rings..
> 
> ...


Yes there is a difference,and the second product is definitely superior to the first,however it is not the best choice for the mid and the upper levels of media.In case you didn't know,Gunther Eheim designed the first canister filter,and Eheim is not a pharmaceutical company trying to edge in on the aquarium filter market.:wink:


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## ColeMan (Mar 9, 2008)

Really anything with surface area is biological media - as lescarp is saying, it's simply a matter of wanting to use the most efficient material (that with the most surface area) to maximize efficiency, to maximize the number of bacteria by giving them more room to grow...any ceramic rings can be used for bio-media, but their "performance rates" will be different even though the same volume is being used.


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

Ceramic rings, the stars or just plain old lava rock pieces, it is all good for the bacteria to grow on to be considered biological and belongs in the top trays.. Your logic of putting it in the bottom and calling it pre-filter makes no sense to me. None of this stuff is considered a pre-filter. That is what the coarse sponges are for. 
How can a a bunch of loose ceramics of any "shape" prevent debris from continuing along on its merry way?
The sponges stop it before cluttering up your bacteria colony forcing you too clean them. The sponges are also very good for bacteria neighborhoods 

How do ceramics pre-filter anything? Then in, and after they do , how do you clean out the debris without wrecking the bacteria we all desperately seek? 

Les man you lost me here, am I missing something? :icon_eek:


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## Rod Hay (Feb 11, 2006)

First, I personally think an XP3 is a lot of filter for a 32g tank.:eek5: I have an XP1 on my 35g; been running the tank safely w/ healthy, happy (i'd assume) fish for 2+ years.

Secondly, in a heavily planted tank the bio-media capacity in a filter becomes mostly a mute point. Your plants will accomplish the bulk of your bio-filter/n-cycle. 

Unless you plan to stock that tank w/ a ridiculous high fish load; four sponges in just one tray would be more than enough capacity. REALLY, what's the squabbling for anyway????


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## lescarpentier (Feb 2, 2008)

Buck said:


> Ceramic rings, the stars or just plain old lava rock pieces, it is all good for the bacteria to grow on to be considered biological and belongs in the top trays.. Your logic of putting it in the bottom and calling it pre-filter makes no sense to me. None of this stuff is considered a pre-filter. That is what the coarse sponges are for.


The ceramic rings will not house as many beneficial bacteria as lava rock or media such as Ehfisubstrat.And they are a prefilter to prevent the finer media such as sponges and lava rock from getting prematurely plugged from the larger debris such as pieces of leaves,and larger particles.




Buck said:


> How can a a bunch of loose ceramics of any "shape" prevent debris from continuing along on its merry way?
> The sponges stop it before cluttering up your bacteria colony forcing you too clean them. The sponges are also very good for bacteria neighborhoods


The point is to not let these larger particles reach the sponges.This extends the cleaning intervals.




Buck said:


> How do ceramics pre-filter anything? Then in, and after they do , how do you clean out the debris without wrecking the bacteria we all desperately seek?


With the Classic you can back flush the filter to remove most of the larger debris,again extending cleaning intervals.


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

on a classic.. where do you back flush it to? the sink.. and with what do you back flush it with? tank water or clean tap water?


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## lescarpentier (Feb 2, 2008)

Torpedobarb said:


> on a classic.. where do you back flush it to? the sink.. and with what do you back flush it with? tank water or clean tap water?


I personally use my kitchen sink.I have 2 filters so I have little concern about killing some bacteria,however to preserve all of your bacteria you should use tank water.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'm with Buck on this one. Sponges are much better mechanical filtration than bio rings, and IME easier to clean out, too.

That being said, I stuff in cheapo poly fiber to handle most of the mechanical filtration in my Filstar, and let the sponges do most of the bio. I also use a mixture of the stars and ceramic media in one of the baskets b/c that's what I had on hand.

Also, Seachem Matrix media is designed for chemical filtration. (Of course, like every media, it eventually will absorb all it can and will serve only as biological media unless replaced regularly).

Have I mentioned recently that FilterWars cracks me up?? ROFL It's like moms at a soccer game fighting over which of their kids is the best...


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

lescarpentier said:


> I personally use my kitchen sink.I have 2 filters so I have little concern about killing some bacteria,however to preserve all of your bacteria you should use tank water.


ok.. so how do you back flush it into the sink with tank water? what pumps the water through?


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## lescarpentier (Feb 2, 2008)

Torpedobarb said:


> ok.. so how do you back flush it into the sink with tank water? what pumps the water through?


Gravity.You simply remove the pump head and remove the top filter pad and pour water into the filter.This flushes the crud out the way that it came in.:wink:


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

lauraleellbp said:


> Also, Seachem Matrix media is designed for chemical filtration. (Of course, like every media, it eventually will absorb all it can and will serve only as biological media unless replaced regularly).


No wrong again.



> Matrix™ is a highly porous media *designed to provide exceptionally efficient biofiltration* for single site removal of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate from freshwater, marine, and reef aquaria. Each liter of Matrix™ provides over 160,000 cm2 (170 sq. ft.) of surface, equivalent to over 40 L (10 gallons) of typical plastic ball media! This product is sold by volume. Cited weight is minimal weight.


http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Matrix.html

You are thinking of their carbon. 


> MatrixCarbon™ is a truly unique activated carbon. It is formed as a spherical bead for optimum hydrodynamics, and will not pack. It permits maximum water flow and contact with its high density of macroporous binding sites. MatrixCarbon™ has a very low ash content as indicated by its minimal impact on pH. Even when added to distilled water, it does not raise pH above 7.0.While all carbons contain phosphate, regardless of false claims to the contrary, MatrixCarbon™ has the lowest detectable leachable phosphate content of all major carbon brands tested. MatrixCarbon™ outperforms other high grade carbons by at least two-fold when compared for total capacity to remove aquarium organic matter, rate of adsorption, and duration of use. This product is sold by volume. Cited weight is minimal weight.


http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/MatrixCarbon.html

These are obviously two completely different products.


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

Buck said:


> How do ceramics pre-filter anything? Then in, and after they do , how do you clean out the debris without wrecking the bacteria we all desperately seek?
> 
> Les man you lost me here, am I missing something? :icon_eek:


The ceramic noodles cause the water path to criss/cross through numerous paths as the water flows through the "tunnels". Which traps debris. I was skeptical at first but on my first cleaning was very surprised as to just how effective it is. 

Then you simply rinse them with tank water for cleaning.

In an earlier post someone linked to Fluval Prefilter (smooth noodles) and fluval Biomax (porous noodles) the smooth prefilter is designed to trap large particles as Les stated, and should be the vary first thing that the water comes in contact with. The biomax is for breeding bacteria and should be placed after sponges/floss so only clean water comes in contact with them. This is so that the pours wont get all gunked up with debris.


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

aahh... thanks for the clarification.. I too only saw the chemical not the biological matrix.

that looks like something to maybe purchase..


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

Torpedobarb said:


> aahh... thanks for the clarification.. I too only saw the chemical not the biological matrix.
> 
> that looks like something to maybe purchase..


It is great stuff.

I cant ID plants, but I know filters and media inside out.


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## CobraGuppy (Sep 23, 2007)

I use pony bead's as a prefilter. Works great because it traps the larger stuff before it reaches the course sponge so it clogs up less.

Heres how i put my media in my xp3 running on my 29 gallon.

Bottom basketony beads on the bottom half, two course sponges on top
Middle basket:Two finer sponges on bottom, filter floss on top
Top basket:Biomedia with either Matrix rock or Fluval rings, forgot which xp3 i had what in, on top of that is another layer of filter floss.

This setup works like a charm for me since it doesn't get dirty that easily and has different layers to get the smaller stuff.


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

that was me who posted the fluval media.. I have the bio rings and chem stars in my filter along with the 4 sponges and 1 filter floss and purigen.


I love the purigen.. it works great too.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

fsh, fsh, fsh, You LOVE this, don't you! ROFL

But this time I'm afraid you're wrong- any media that also removes nitAtes should be considered chemcial filtration. I didn't argue the point that Matrix serves as biological filtration- but the Matrix is a resin media similar to Purigen except that it can't be regenerated. Matrix actually converts nitrAtes into nitrogen gas, which is then outgassed at the surface and therefore no longer available to plants. I personally wouldn't use it in a FW planted tank, though I would (and do) use the Matrix Carbon. http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Matrix.html


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

lauraleellbp said:


> fsh, fsh, fsh, You LOVE this, don't you! ROFL
> 
> But this time I'm afraid you're wrong- any media that also removes nitAtes should be considered chemcial filtration. I didn't argue the point that Matrix serves as biological filtration- but the Matrix is a resin media similar to Purigen except that it can't be regenerated. Matrix actually converts nitrAtes into nitrogen gas, which is then outgassed at the surface and therefore no longer available to plants. I personally wouldn't use it in a FW planted tank, though I would (and do) use the Matrix Carbon. http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Matrix.html


You need to read your own link, which I also linked.

It is similar to lava rock in its appearance. It is NOT a resin.


> Matrix™ is a highly porous media designed to provide exceptionally efficient biofiltration for single site removal of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate from freshwater, marine, and reef aquaria. Each liter of Matrix™ provides over 160,000 cm2 (170 sq. ft.) of surface, equivalent to over 40 L (10 gallons) of typical plastic ball media! This product is sold by volume. Cited weight is minimal weight.





> Aerobic bacteria grow on the pitted external surfaces of Matrix™ and convert ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate. ​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is simply designed to house bacteria. Period. It doesnt remove anything from the water, the bacteria it houses does. It has nothing in common with Purigen.


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## CobraGuppy (Sep 23, 2007)

"Anaerobic bacteria convert nitrate into nitrogen gas, which is then expelled at the tank surface"

I got that from the website you gave.

Doesnt that mean that it is an anaerobic bacteria that removes nitrate? When i read that (before you posted your post) i simply thought that it housed bacteria that could take out nitrate, not the media itself taking out nitrate.

Edit: Rofl ninja'd 

This thread is moving a long so fast xD

I post reply, read the link, get a drink, come back and post my post and Fsh already says what i wanted to say :redface:


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Matrix is a artifically manufactured material not found in nature = resin

The mechanics of how Purigen and Matrix work is different, but both are resins, not natural products like Carbon


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

CobraGuppy said:


> "Anaerobic bacteria convert nitrate into nitrogen gas, which is then expelled at the tank surface"
> 
> I got that from the website you gave.
> 
> Doesnt that mean that it is an anaerobic bacteria that removes nitrate? When i read that (before you posted your post) i simply thought that it housed bacteria that could take out nitrate, not the media itself taking out nitrate.


Correct. She is misinformed. The media is designed to house large colonies of bacteria, nothing else. The media itself is inert. It does nothing. It could be compared to using lava rock. However, lava rock can not sustain nearly as much bacteria as Matrix can.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

No again fsh- Matrix is manufactured to encourage the growth of _*de*_nitrifying bacteria, in opposed to just nitrifying bacteria

It's a media more appropriate for SW or FW fish-only tanks.


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## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> No again fsh- Matrix is manufactured to encourage the growth of _*de*_nitrifying bacteria, in opposed to just nitrifying bacteria
> 
> It's a media more appropriate for SW or FW fish-only tanks.


if this is true then fish is right it is not a chemical process it is biological (which is a chemical process but w/e)

bacteria holding inert media = biological


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

lauraleellbp said:


> Matrix is a artifically manufactured material not found in nature = resin
> 
> The mechanics of how Purigen and Matrix work is different, but both are resins, not natural products like Carbon


You are wrong. Let it die. You stated Matrix was similar to Purigen but it could not be regenerated. You are wrong. 

It is similar to Eheims Efhisubstrat and Efhisubstrat Pro. 

Even IF Matrix is artificially manufactured, doesnt make that a filtration resin in the aquarium sense.

Resins in the aquarium sense actually absorb wastes, Matrix does not.


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

lauraleellbp said:


> No again fsh- Matrix is manufactured to encourage the growth of _*de*_nitrifying bacteria, in opposed to just nitrifying bacteria
> 
> It's a media more appropriate for SW or FW fish-only tanks.


So now you are admitting I was right?
Be that as it may be, it is not what you were stating it was. Period.

*The argument was not where this product is better suited to be used, but what it was.*


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Now we're just arguing semantics, which I agree is pointless.

The point really is that denitrification isn't really a desirable process in a planted tank, and whether you classify that as biological (fsh's definition) or chemical (my definition) process is pretty much a moot point.

fishsandwitch is correct however that just because something is a resin doesn't mean that it is or is not inert (for example, my resin "driftwood" I had in my 46gal was inert).


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

lauraleellbp said:


> fishsandwitch is correct however that just because something is a resin doesn't mean that it is or is not inert (for example, my resin "driftwood" I had in my 46gal was inert).


I bet it wasnt a very effective filter media.


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## atrius (Apr 10, 2008)

I agree with fsh. Matrix is an artificially manufactured poduct (probably sintered glass or quartz) but not containing an aquatic "resin". It is similar in composition to Eheim`s Ehfisubstrat. Wheter its better or worse than substrat I don`t know, but it is less expensive (at least I found it to be so at my LFS).


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## MedRed (May 20, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> No again fsh- Matrix is manufactured to encourage the growth of _*de*_nitrifying bacteria, in opposed to just nitrifying bacteria
> 
> It's a media more appropriate for SW or FW fish-only tanks.


Matrix is designed to be a complete bio media. It hosts nitrifiying on the surface and denitrifying in the pits.


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

I made popcorn for those who are watching :hihi:


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## MedRed (May 20, 2008)

Torpedobarb said:


> I made popcorn for those who are watching :hihi:


lol... I just ate some kettle corn. the bag is still in front of me.


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

I am bored already. I hate being right all the time. He He.


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## Lnb (Apr 15, 2008)

> I made popcorn for those who are watching :hihi:


Mine with plenty of butter please. :angel:


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

what to drink?


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## Lnb (Apr 15, 2008)

> what to drink?


Some Liptor for the cholesterol and a nice ice cold "Pepsi". Bet you thought I was gonna say beer! Though a Corona wouldn't hurt either.

Hey, what's this, the end already???


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

I LOVE POPCORN. 

I just can't eat movie popcorn because it makes me fart and I am not talking one isolated soft little fart. 

Deadly.

But I love popcorn with an ice cold cherry sprite! Yummy!

I love beer, however the mix of popcorn and beer sounds gross.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

ROFL

It's OK, I don't mind it if ya can't admit it when you're wrong :fish: :fish1: :fish: :fish1: 

:flick:


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

Oh I have no issue with admitting when I am wrong. It just doesnt happen that much. 

*I* like to do a little research first if I am unclear on something. Unlike some people I know.:icon_evil :flick: :icon_evil


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

LOL

The only thing you and I disagreed on really was semantics. I know full well what Matrix is, and what it does and does not do- I've actually done quite a bit of research on Seachem's FW products. You want to define resins and biological vs chemical filtration differently. I'll let you have your definitions, but personally I think mine are better :icon_evil  :icon_evil


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

You can disagree with me, however, "MY" definitions (in this case) are exactly the same as Seachems.

The only thing Matrix does is house bacteria. It is pretty straight forward.


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

you said fart... lmfao!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Remind me not to sit next to him at the movies.

If you like cherry sprite, you ever had Cheerwine?


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

Not a huge fan of any wine.

Ice cold beer, vodka or Patron are my poisons. Or all three. Yummy.

Hey, I bet my liver is bigger than yours!
* Flexes muscles*


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

I am kind of a stickler for semantics myself. 

Some of the guys I work with say, "That server is hacked!"

I generally tend to say, "That server is compromised."

And here is why. Most servers I see that are compromised are done so through a program downloaded via the Internet that is designed to find exploits on servers. Any fool can use one of these programs.

A hacker, on the other hand, knows what he/she is doing on a system and generally goes undetected. The last thing a hacker wants to do is to be obviously detected on a system that they aren't supposed to be on. As soon as that happens, their presance can be removed by rebuilding the server, etc.

I agree that the removal of Nitrates is similar to a chemical reaction and could be confused with chemical filtration, but the fact that bacteria is performing the actual operation to start the filtration process makes me leant towards the fact that it is indeed a biological filtration method.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Wooohooo! Welcome to the party, Biscuit! A little late, but better late than never... what'd ya bring to munch on?

Actually, Cheerwine is a soda, not ETOH, and I'm pretty sure you can only get it in North Carolina, though I've no idea why. Cherry sprite actually reminded me of it first time I tried the sprite, though I really like Cheerwine better. I need to find some place to buy it online and have it shipped...

LOL @ fsh... and yellower too!


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

lauraleellbp said:


> Wooohooo! Welcome to the party, Biscuit! A little late, but better late than never... what'd ya bring to munch on?


Tums 

LL - Don't think you are going to find too many guys that admit to drinking Cheerwine. Just doesn't sound like a manly thing to drink.


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

Cool, I will have to check it out. I am going to get my son and bring him home from Ft Bragg, North Carolina. I will check it out.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

AnnihilationWine, DeathWine, or OctaneWine now that is a different story.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

You've never had it either? It rocks! Don't you have some friends or relatives in NC? Ask them!

Pass the tums to fsh- I think I got his panties all in a bundle :hihi:


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

I drink cherry coke zero! and corona..


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

lauraleellbp said:


> LOL @ fsh... and yellower too!


Actually, they turn blackish green from drinking. HAHA gotcha!


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> You've never had it either? It rocks! Don't you have some friends or relatives in NC? Ask them!
> 
> Pass the tums to fsh- I think I got his panties all in a bundle :hihi:



wow... panty wedgies! :hihi:


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Torpedobarb said:


> I drink cherry coke zero! and corona..


ewwwww

I stick with regular coke and Don Q. Got addicted to that stuff in Puerto Rico- LOVE it! Can't ever find it when I'm out someplace, though.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Yup- but then YOU turn yellow from jaundice. Pretty far gone at that point...


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

I thought were were talking about my liver color.


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

I don't mix them! I drink the cherry coke zero because last year I had to go on a diet and lose weight.. which I did.. (80lbs) and I can't drink regular soda or pop now. I can taste the sugar way to easily..


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

LOL but you still drink Coronas?

fsh - you do need to do something about that wedgie...


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

lauraleellbp said:


> fsh - you do need to do something about that wedgie...


It is physically impossible for me to have a wedgie right now. :icon_eek:


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

commando! nice touch! lmao! :hihi:


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

Wow... I think this thread might just set a record for how off topic it has strayed. LOL


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

I was just thinking the same thing! lol


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

Its LL's fault.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

lauraleellbp said:


> ... you ever had Cheerwine?


I grew up 25 miles away from the Cheerwine plant in Salisbury, NC. You could only get it locally until the late 70's/early 80's and then they expanded their marked somewhat.

You can still get Cheerwine like it has been made for over 90 years with real sugar in it and not corn syrup. They are available now in the 90th anniversary bottles that resemble the original glass ones. They just have the 90th anniversary symbol on them. 

This is a very good soft drink. There's a hot dog stand just around the corner that serves them ice cold. They're delicious!!

You can purchase Cheerwine in cans and various sizes of plastic bottles, but they are sweetened with corn syrup and they aren't nearly as good as the "original" ones in the glass bottles. Diet Cheerwine is also available.

If someone happens to come to NC, you should check out a glass bottle of Cheerwine. Yum!!!











http://www.cheerwine.com/Since1917_3.jsp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheerwine


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

OMG I KNEW I liked you Lefty! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: 

Diet Cheerwine is just WRONG though! :icon_eek: 

(fsh I totally can't think of anything to say ATM that's PG-13 or less so I'm just gonna behave ROFLMBO!)


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

http://www.plantedtank.net/imagehosting/view/1605/








I win!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

What'd ya win?


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

a battle of witts. You ran out of ammo.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I did?


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

lauraleellbp said:


> (fsh *I totally can't think of anything to say ATM* that's PG-13 or less so I'm just gonna behave ROFLMBO!)


You said you did. Considering everything on this site has to rated under PG-13, I would say yes. You ran out of ammo. I haven't even tapped into my material that is rated over PG-13.

I would like to go drinking with you. I bet that would be a hoot.


I got you some gold stars.







I hope that makes you feel better.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Awwww you're getting soft in your old age!

How does it count if the only material you have left too is over PG13? ROFL

I'm actually one of those ppl who never gets drunk. I'm totally off the wall enough stone-cold-sober. I need to be able to put a damper on when it's time to!! Want to go table dancing? :icon_cool


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

lauraleellbp said:


> Want to go table dancing? :icon_cool


Fsh... on a table... dancing... eeeewww, gross!


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

It will be in perfect character with his wedgie! :thumbsup:


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Guess he really ran out of ammo this time... no response? :flick: 

Oh well... nite! 

Me >  fsh > 

Popcorn for Torpedobarb > 

Tums for Biscuit >










Purigen (NOT MATRIX!) for Idontknow >


----------



## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

I was watching TV. 

It counts because you can't use it. I have plenty left. 

Smilie war huh?


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## lescarpentier (Feb 2, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> I'm with Buck on this one. Sponges are much better mechanical filtration than bio rings, and IME easier to clean out, too.


After reading through the thread do you still honestly believe this?
I agree that sponges are necessary,and good,but they don't belong first in line to stop the larger debris.Sure they can be placed first if you like to clean the filter frequently.High maintenance like this is a huge drawback in a canister filter.



lauraleellbp said:


> Have I mentioned recently that FilterWars cracks me up?? ROFL It's like moms at a soccer game fighting over which of their kids is the best...


I don't see them as funny at all.A lot of useful knowledge can be exchanged during these debates,.and the wise person can learn a lot from them.


----------



## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

lescarpentier said:


> After reading through the thread do you still honestly believe this?
> I agree that sponges are necessary,and good,but they don't belong first in line to stop the larger debris.Sure they can be placed first if you like to clean the filter frequently.High maintenance like this is a huge drawback in a canister filter.



Thats how I have my filter set up. Am I missing something?

Filter setup is as follows:

Coarse sponge
Finer sponge
Bio media
filter floss

I thought you wanted to filter out the larger particles first and finer and so on.


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## MedRed (May 20, 2008)

i agree with lauraleellbp on sponges as the first line. yes they clog quickly but that's the point. they catch the big stuff that would clog and render the surface area of bio and chemical filtration less effective to useless. You can always squeeze a sponge out and keep trucking. once bio media is plastered with gunk... it's severely impaired. something porous like ceramics looses the vast amount of its surface area. ceramics are not good as prefilters. it's very easy for things to make it around or through ceramic pieces just by flowing along with the current.


----------



## lescarpentier (Feb 2, 2008)

BiscuitSlayer said:


> Thats how I have my filter set up. Am I missing something?
> 
> Filter setup is as follows:
> 
> ...


My filters have a coarse sponge too,but after the ceramic rings.The ceramic rings trap most of the larger particles before they clog the coarse sponge.This is why I can have 6 month intervals between complete cleanings.The larger particles can be back flushed out of the ceramic rings,but not the sponges.



MedRed said:


> i agree with lauraleellbp on sponges as the first line. yes they clog quickly but that's the point. they catch the big stuff that would clog and render the surface area of bio and chemical filtration less effective to useless. You can always squeeze a sponge out and keep trucking. once bio media is plastered with gunk... it's severely impaired. something porous like ceramics looses the vast amount of its surface area.


That is the reason for the ceramic rings,to prevent clogging the sponge.Who in the world wants to wring out that nasty and offensive thing every month?



MedRed said:


> ceramics are not good as prefilters. it's very easy for things to make it around or through ceramic pieces just by flowing along with the current.


Excuse me,but you are very uninformed about these rings.They catch most of the larger particles,such as leaves,etc.before they reach the sponge.They have been used and proven for many years so this is barely a debatable subject.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

I'll buy that. Makes logical sense to me.

I have to clean out my filter about once every 3 months. I'll try switching stuff around and see if there is a difference in my case.

LC -

Its misinformed, not uninformed.


----------



## MedRed (May 20, 2008)

lescarpentier said:


> My filters have a coarse sponge too,but after the ceramic rings.The ceramic rings trap most of the larger particles before they clog the coarse sponge.This is why I can have 6 month intervals between complete cleanings.The larger particles can be back flushed out of the ceramic rings,but not the sponges.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hardly debatable my foot. not misinformed or uniformed. your eheim might have the ceramics before the sponges, but please tell me what marineland recommends, or rena, or an aquaclear, or any other filter. sponge/ filter floss is meant to prevent the big stuff from getting in the way of the other media doing it's job. the sponges are meant to be disposable. the bio media is only meant to be changed when it's too clogged to be effective anymore... which is hastened by throwing it up front in the line of solid plant parts, fish wastes, uneaten food, etc.


----------



## lescarpentier (Feb 2, 2008)

BiscuitSlayer said:


> LC -
> Its misinformed, not uninformed.


LOL,Thanks for the correction!

Read this..


fshfanatic said:


> The ceramic noodles cause the water path to criss/cross through numerous paths as the water flows through the "tunnels". Which traps debris. I was skeptical at first but on my first cleaning was very surprised as to just how effective it is.


----------



## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

So when you clean your Eheims, you clean the noodles too?

One thing I always try to aviod is cleaning my bio media. I actually even set some aqarium water aside and set the bio basket in the aquarium water while I am cleaning out the rest of the filter.


----------



## lescarpentier (Feb 2, 2008)

MedRed said:


> hardly debatable my foot. not misinformed or uniformed. your eheim might have the ceramics before the sponges, but please tell me what marineland recommends, or rena, or an aquaclear, or any other filter.


What Rena,Marineland,or Aquaclear recommends is of very little concern to me.I know what works,and have seen it.Eheim recommends the ceramic rings first,and I have found this to be the most effective.



MedRed said:


> sponge/ filter floss is meant to prevent the big stuff from getting in the way of the other media doing it's job. the sponges are meant to be disposable. the bio media is only meant to be changed when it's too clogged to be effective anymore... which is hastened by throwing it up front in the line of solid plant parts, fish wastes, uneaten food, etc.


Who says to put the bio media in front?That would be ridiculous.Try reading this whole thread from start to finish and you may learn something..


----------



## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

MedRed said:


> the bio media is only meant to be changed when it's too clogged to be effective anymore... which is hastened by throwing it up front in the line of solid plant parts, fish wastes, uneaten food, etc.


Thats why you place the bio-media last, after all forms of mechanical. As you want the cleanest possible water flowing around the bio. 

I have owned a few fluval filters as well as the numerous Eheim filters that I have now. Fluval also says to place the mechanical filtration first and bio/chemical filtration last. This is so that those types of media dont get gunked up as fast. Followed by floss or some polishing pad.

Your prefilter whether it be sponges or ceramic rings should be the first thing the water passes through. In Eheims case this is their Ehfimech, in fluvals case it is what they label "prefilter", both of these are ceramic noodles. 

If you remember the Fluval 300 series canisters (which flowed from bottom to top) you will remember that they recommended course media ( lava or their prefilter media) then chemical in the middle tray and finally toped off with the large round sponge. 

IMO the two manufaturers that have been making canister filters the longest, Eheim and Fluval BOTH make and recommend their "prefilter" media. These are pretty much the same and they are both ceramic "noodles". They then recommend some type of mechanical "trap" such as sponges, topped with biomedia of some sort and finally floss or "polishing pad".

I find it odd that this is so hard to understand.


----------



## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

BiscuitSlayer said:


> So when you clean your Eheims, you clean the noodles too?


Clean? No, rinse. It doesnt take much to rinse them out.


BiscuitSlayer said:


> One thing I always try to aviod is cleaning my bio media. I actually even set some aqarium water aside and set the bio basket in the aquarium water while I am cleaning out the rest of the filter.


You should rinse it with tank water, this will rinse off all the fine debris that tends to collect on it.


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## lescarpentier (Feb 2, 2008)

BiscuitSlayer said:


> So when you clean your Eheims, you clean the noodles too?
> 
> One thing I always try to aviod is cleaning my bio media. I actually even set some aqarium water aside and set the bio basket in the aquarium water while I am cleaning out the rest of the filter.


I back flush the filter every 3 or 4 months which cleans the rings.The bio media doesn't even get dirty,and just gets a rinse with tank water during the back flush.Everything gets trapped in the rings and the sponges.


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

lescarpentier said:


> I back flush the filter every 3 or 4 months which cleans the rings.The bio media doesn't even get dirty,and just gets a rinse with tank water during the back flush.Everything gets trapped in the rings and the sponges.


I wouldnt go that far. After all, you place floss or a polishing pad at the top and those do get gunked up.


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## MedRed (May 20, 2008)

lescarpentier said:


> LOL,Thanks for the correction!
> 
> Read this..


and as i said... that is sacrificing the efficiency of the bio media for the sake of the sponge... which is meant to be disposable. 

I don't disagree that ceramics can be used that way... it's just reducing the efficiency of each part doing it's job. If a canister has multiple layers and you can add another layer of bio after the sponges, then whatever floats your boat. There's a reason why a filter pad doesn't go in backwards (open flow strainer, carbon, floss). a sponge is much better at mechanical filtration than ceramic noodles. who cares if it means you have to service it more often.


----------



## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

MedRed said:


> and as i said... that is sacrificing the efficiency of the bio media for the sake of the sponge... which is meant to be disposable.
> 
> I don't disagree that ceramics can be used that way... it's just reducing the efficiency of each part doing it's job. If a canister has multiple layers and you can add another layer of bio after the sponges, then whatever floats your boat. There's a reason why a filter pad doesn't go in backwards (open flow strainer, carbon, floss). a sponge is much better at mechanical filtration than ceramic noodles.


Noodles are a designed to act as a* PRE-FILTER*, they do an excellent job at what they are designed for. They trap the truly larger pieces so that your sponges wont get clogged up as fast. The water flow then breaks these larger pieces up which then get trapped in the sponges. The result is longer times between sponge cleanings. It is actually very simple and effective. Also, sponges should last you YEARS. I would not consider that disposable.

How often are you forced to clean your filter due to decreased flow from clogging due to debris in your canister? Me, I can go upwards of 4-6 months before I am FORCED to clean it out. I am betting yours cant go as long.


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## lescarpentier (Feb 2, 2008)

fshfanatic said:


> I wouldnt go that far. After all, you place floss or a polishing pad at the top and those do get gunked up.


I change the fine pad on top every time I clean,or back flush the filter.:wink:
I don't even try to clean it.


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

I know.. But thats not what you said here. 


lescarpentier said:


> I back flush the filter every 3 or 4 months which cleans the rings.The bio media doesn't even get dirty,and just gets a rinse with tank water during the back flush.*Everything gets trapped in the rings and the sponges.*


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

Ah HA! Semantics.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

pwned


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

BiscuitSlayer said:


> Ah HA! Semantics.


I am just yanking his chain....


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## lescarpentier (Feb 2, 2008)

fshfanatic said:


> I know.. But thats not what you said here.


It is late and you are splitting hairs..


----------



## lescarpentier (Feb 2, 2008)

......


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

OK, eheims aside...

The Filstars filter from the bottom up. Traditionally the mechanical sponges are on the bottom, then chemical, then biological. One thing that fsh said is that you want the cleanest water possible to hit your biological media. 

This seems to contradict what you are saying though if you put your biomedia first in line.

I am not trying to be dense or argumentative. Just trying to make some sense of this.

Lets forget eheims for now (especially since the thread is related to a filstar)


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## MedRed (May 20, 2008)

The eheims use the noodles as mechanical and then something different for bio. I'd bet money that sponges catch more debris than the noodles do. eheims may be designed for the media to go this way... but the ceramic noodles designed for the filstar and the filstar itself isn't designed this way. That's not saying that it can't be done...


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

MedRed said:


> The eheims use the noodles as mechanical and then something different for bio. I'd bet money that sponges catch more debris than the noodles do. eheims may be designed for the media to go this way... but the ceramic noodles designed for the filstar and the filstar itself isn't designed this way. That's not saying that it can't be done...


Ultimately, it probably doesn't matter that much as long as the biofilter is in tact and the water is coming out clean and unrestricted. Everything else would be pretty much acedemic.


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## Jeremy VanderKelen (Jan 18, 2008)

The rings or noodles or whatever you want to call them are not put in the spot that Les and Fish are arguing for because of them doing bio media jobs. Sure they might do that cause almost anything you stick in the filter is going to house biological filtration. The rings are there first to catch the big stuff and disrupt the water flow. Thats it. Period. Do they do some biological filtration? Of course.

Then the water goes thru whatever you like to use for chemical (purigen or carbon or whatever floats ur boat). The rings help the water go thru multiple streams thru this chemical area. Thats one of the main reasons for the rings first in my opinion. 

If you use a sponge first sure it catches more stuff than the rings but also creates water flow to only certain areas when it clogs. This makes for less contact time with other stuff in the canister. 

I think this is the main argument here. Basically anything you put in the canister is going to do some biological filtration eventually, right? I think that what you want to focus on here is making sure the water is getting spread around in the canister and that it is not getting clogged long before it should be.


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## MedRed (May 20, 2008)

The OP is asking about his filstar

les... as you said earlier.



lescarpentier said:


> ...the ceramic rings are designed as a course mechanical prefilter and should be used only in the first,(lower) tray.


Rena says:



> *Ceramic Rings are specially designed for use in all FilStar filters*. They have a higher cumulative pore volume per liter than standard biological media used in most canister filters. Their highly porous, hollow design effectively distributes water flow and allows massive colonies of beneficial bacteria to grow on and inside each ring, creating an ideal "biological filter." FilStar Ceramic Rings create the ideal substrate for the growth of nitrifying bacteria that remove toxic ammonia and nitrite from aquarium water. They will not break down in the filter or alter pH or water hardness.


these rings are all about bio filtering. putting them up front will clog the the porosity and drastically reduce their effectiveness.

and Rena says about the sponges?

Coarse sponge:



> Removes coarse debris and solid wastes before they enter chemical and biological filtration chambers. Can be rinsed and re-used many times.
> Open-cell design permits free flow of water.


finer sponge



> Removes fine debris and solid wastes before they enter chemical and biological filtration chambers. Can be rinsed and re-used many times. Open-cell design permits free flow of water.


The filstar (as are the vast majority of filters) is designed to use ceramic as bio filter media... after the mechanical sponges. And as I said earlier, i'd bet money a sponge does a better job at blocking more solid particles than the ceramic noodles do. i can already see hikari micro pellets sweeping in and around the noodles and continuing on their merry way.


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

Jeremy VanderKelen said:


> *The rings or noodles or whatever you want to call them are not put in the spot that Les and Fish are arguing for because of them doing bio media jobs.* Sure they might do that cause almost anything you stick in the filter is going to house biological filtration. *The rings are there first to catch the big stuff and disrupt the water flow. Thats it. Period.* Do they do some biological filtration? Of course.
> 
> Then the water goes thru whatever you like to use for chemical (purigen or carbon or whatever floats ur boat). *The rings help the water go thru multiple streams thru this chemical area. Thats one of the main reasons for the rings first in my opinion. *
> 
> ...


EXACTLY!


----------



## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

MedRed said:


> *Ceramic Rings are specially designed for use in all FilStar filters*. They have a higher cumulative pore volume per liter than standard biological media used in most canister filters. Their highly porous, hollow design effectively distributes water flow and allows massive colonies of beneficial bacteria to grow on and inside each ring, creating an ideal "biological filter." FilStar Ceramic Rings create the ideal substrate for the growth of nitrifying bacteria that remove toxic ammonia and nitrite from aquarium water. They will not break down in the filter or alter pH or water hardness.


Then they are designed more like Fluval's BioMax. Which are bio-media. Two completely different things. That is why I kept saying the pre-filter noodles.


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## Jeremy VanderKelen (Jan 18, 2008)

I personally go rings then a floss or sponge depending on whats available. Then purigen followed by another sponge or more floss and then a polishing pad at end. I definetly think that the rings before the sponge help me space out my cleanings. But I do agree that a sponge before the chemical filtration is good. I just think that rings before the sponge or floss helps out. Just my 2 cents.


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

if you go back to the beginning of this thread there are two different types of noodles that are used... pre filter noodles and bio noodles.. they are saying to use the pre filter noodles before the sponges.. and the bio media after the sponges.


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## MedRed (May 20, 2008)

fshfanatic said:


> Then they are designed more like Fluval's BioMax. Which are bio-media. Two completely different things. That is why I kept saying the pre-filter noodles.


yes, you may have, but reading the beginning of this thread... les is recommending to use the ceramics at the bottom. 



Torpedobarb said:


> if you go back to the beginning of this thread there are two different types of noodles that are used... pre filter noodles and bio noodles.. they are saying to use the pre filter noodles before the sponges.. and the bio media after the sponges.


I did go back and read... and that's not what the first page says at all. Les even says the noodles may do a better job than the rings (now that that distinction is made) but the rings were not designed for bio. 

the whole multiple streams business becomes pretty moot in the size of a canister and the amount of water flowing. once past an obstruction, the water is going to fill in the given volume. Proper maintenance will of course keep the sponges clean in the first place. 

being the first doesn't mean you're the best... often times it means you're unwilling to change. Mercedes had one of the first cars, and was one of the last to adopt 4 valves a cylinder and active valve control.


----------



## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

MedRed said:


> yes, you may have, but reading the beginning of this thread... les is recommending to use the ceramics at the bottom.


Might be splitting hairs here, but I know the pre-filter noodles are ceramic, but are the Bio-Max type also ceramic or are they a splinted glass type material?

I know the fluval ones are not ceramic.


----------



## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> Actually, Cheerwine is a soda, not ETOH, and I'm pretty sure you can only get it in North Carolina, though I've no idea why. Cherry sprite actually reminded me of it first time I tried the sprite, though I really like Cheerwine better. I need to find some place to buy it online and have it shipped...
> LOL @ fsh... and yellower too!


wrong again! You can get cheerwine in kansas. I got it from a vending machine this summer... But it was nasty. 

Cheerwine is available in most of the southeastern United States, from West Virginia south to Georgia, but is better known and has been a longtime favorite in the Carolinas and Virginia. It is famous in Charleston, South Carolina and along the Carolina coast. It is available in Cincinnati at Jungle Jim's. Other spots to find Cheerwine are the many "specialty soda" stores throughout the country, such as The Fondren Beverage Emporium in Jackson, Mississippi. However, as of late 2002, the beverage is now also distributed in Norway through Oslo-based American Marketing. There are plans to expand distribution to the rest of Scandinavia in coming months. In April of 2005, other regions of the United States began to bottle Cheerwine; mainly through Pepsi distributors. The first area outside the traditional market area was Quincy, Illinois. Other areas added recently include Burlington, Iowa; Duluth, Minnesota; Chattanooga, Tennessee (in certain stores); Tulsa, Oklahoma; Topeka, Kansas; Rolla, Missouri; and South Yankton, Nebraska. It can be found in vending machines in eastern Ohio and in Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology of Terre Haute, Indiana, and in some restaurants in San Francisco, California. 

Try http://www.beveragesdirect.com/


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

Holy Crap! $29 and change for a case? Jesus, beer is cheeper than that.


----------



## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

I am sure it would be way cheaper to buy can though

what about caffine water 20 bucks for a case...http://www.beveragesdirect.com/detail-69-Water_Joe_Caffeinated_Water_24_Pack.asp


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Don't you ppl SLEEP? ROFL What's the big idea continuing the party without me???

Yes, Les, I still consider sponges better mechanical filters than ceramics of any sort, shape, size, brand, blah blah blah. And I personally still find squeezing out sponges to be easier than cleaning rings or noodles. 

I also like that Rena's sponges are black- I'm not so tempted to replace them simply b/c they _*look*_ "dirty" like I would lighter colored sponges (that's a bit of a woman/cleaning thing LOL). I won't replace the black sponges till they are falling apart. (the white micro-sponge is another story... but I haven't needed to change mine yet so I've no idea how often I will want to, maybe once a year or once every few months... tank's not stocked yet so have to take that into account...)

Since I use filter floss for the majority of my mechanical in my XP2 my sponges don't clog every month. Want to debate which is better mechanical, filter floss or ceramics? :hihi: 

I agree with Jeremy that in the end, it all gets the job done.

Les- you should totally take a job selling Eheims! ROFL

fsh- u need some plumber's putty for that...


----------



## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> fsh- u need some plumber's putty for that...


what???


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

fshfanatic said:


> Holy Crap! $29 and change for a case? Jesus, beer is cheeper than that.


Yeah I bet it's b/c it's the bottled version...

You going to get your son to bring you some?


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

fishsandwitch said:


> what???


Post #87

He was exhausted from losing the battle of wits with me and resorted to mooning :icon_roll


----------



## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

lauraleellbp said:


> Yeah I bet it's b/c it's the bottled version...
> 
> You going to get your son to bring you some?


Probably not since I am picking him up and could get it my self. 

And your plumbers putty remark went right over my head. No idea what your talking about.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'm sorry, I forgot I need to Keep It Simple...:flick: 

Plumber's putty for the Plumber's Crack


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

Going a little crazy with the caps?


----------



## MedRed (May 20, 2008)

fshfanatic said:


> Might be splitting hairs here, but I know the pre-filter noodles are ceramic, but are the Bio-Max type also ceramic or are they a splinted glass type material?
> 
> I know the fluval ones are not ceramic.


the fluval ones say ceramic, just like the rena ones


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

fshfanatic said:


> Going a little crazy with the caps?


You think? I can always use question marks instead, if you like them better?


----------



## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

Fluval has two types just like Eheim, both have a pre filter ceramic rings Ehiem calls them Ehfimech and I think fluval just calls them pre filter rings.
Both also have a porous ring/rock/ball designed for bio activity.
Ehiem calls them Ehfisubstrat and Fluval calls them Bio-max.

Hehe, hope that clears up this silly argument


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

uh oh... he's thinking... don't send those hamsters into overdrive, their wheel is getting hot!


----------



## lescarpentier (Feb 2, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> Les- you should totally take a job selling Eheims! ROFL


What do you think that I have been doing?

I have been responsible for more than a few sales.


----------



## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

fishsandwitch said:


> wrong again! You can get cheerwine in kansas. I got it from a vending machine this summer... But it was nasty.
> 
> Cheerwine is available in most of the southeastern United States, from West Virginia south to Georgia, but is better known and has been a longtime favorite in the Carolinas and Virginia. It is famous in Charleston, South Carolina and along the Carolina coast. It is available in Cincinnati at Jungle Jim's. Other spots to find Cheerwine are the many "specialty soda" stores throughout the country, such as The Fondren Beverage Emporium in Jackson, Mississippi. However, as of late 2002, the beverage is now also distributed in Norway through Oslo-based American Marketing. There are plans to expand distribution to the rest of Scandinavia in coming months. In April of 2005, other regions of the United States began to bottle Cheerwine; mainly through Pepsi distributors. The first area outside the traditional market area was Quincy, Illinois. Other areas added recently include Burlington, Iowa; Duluth, Minnesota; Chattanooga, Tennessee (in certain stores); Tulsa, Oklahoma; Topeka, Kansas; Rolla, Missouri; and South Yankton, Nebraska. It can be found in vending machines in eastern Ohio and in Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology of Terre Haute, Indiana, and in some restaurants in San Francisco, California.
> 
> Try http://www.beveragesdirect.com/


That's true. Cheerwine has expanded it's market over the years, but for 60+ years it was only available locally.

In the 70's, I went to NCSU in Raleigh, NC. which was about 3 hours away from the bottling plant. You could not get Cheerwine there and very few people had even heard about it.


----------



## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

fshfanatic said:


> Holy Crap! $29 and change for a case? Jesus, beer is cheaper than that.


Wow! That is a ripe off! http://www.beveragesdirect.com/browse/search.asp?KEYWORDS=cheerwine&I12.x=15&I12.y=9

That's more than 2X the price that it sells for here.

You only pay $1 for a bottle when you buy it in restaurants around here.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Actually, depending on shipping (I didn't check that out) that price isn't that much more... a case is 24 bottles.

I don't think I've had any Cheerwine since the late 80s or early 90s... been a long time!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

lescarpentier said:


> What do you think that I have been doing?
> 
> I have been responsible for more than a few sales.


LOL

Figures!

You and fsh should go into business together. Selling ice to Eskimos, too...


----------



## lescarpentier (Feb 2, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> I don't think I've had any Cheerwine since the late 80s or early 90s... been a long time!


Your mother used that for formula? :eek5: :hihi:


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## idontknow (May 9, 2008)

I should have read the information on the matrix a little more carefully. Lauraleellbp, was that a joke on post 86 of yours? About me needing the purigen? On the website it says it also removed NitrAtes like Matrix.


----------



## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

idontknow said:


> I should have read the information on the matrix a little more carefully. Lauraleellbp, was that a joke on post 86 of yours? About me needing the purigen? On the website it says it also removed NitrAtes like Matrix.


That would be incorrect.


> Purigen™ is a premium synthetic adsorbent that is unlike any other filtration product. It is not a mixture of ion exchangers or adsorbents, but a unique macro-porous synthetic polymer that removes soluble and insoluble impurities from water at a rate and capacity that exceeds all others by over 500%.Purigen™ controls ammonia, nitrites and nitrates by removing nitrogenous organic waste that would otherwise release these harmful compounds. Purigen’s™ impact on trace elements is minimal. It significantly raises redox. It polishes water to unparalleled clarity. Purigen™ darkens progressively as it exhausts, and is easily renewed by treating with bleach. Purigen™ is designed for both marine and freshwater use. This product is sold by volume. Cited weight is minimal weight.


Matrix is an inert media that houses bacteria which breaks down Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate, Purigen is an absorbent. Two completely different filter medias.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Cheerwine in those bottles; a 6 pack is a little over $5 and a 24 bottle case is a little over $14 at the grocery stores. That's what it meant when I said that $29 for a 24 bottle for a case is a rip off or over 2X more. It is $1 for an ice cold bottle at Zack's Hot Dogs. I always get 2.:icon_smil


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

idontknow- No, I wasn't joking- I do think that Purigen is more appropriate media for a FW planted tank than Matrix, though I was mostly poking at fsh just to get him going again :hihi: 

Nice try Les- you're not getting me to admit my age! :wink:


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## idontknow (May 9, 2008)

This is taken from Bigals site


> Purigen is a premium synthetic adsorbent that is unlike any other filtration product. It is not a mixture of ion exchangers or adsorbents, but a unique macro-porous synthetic polymer that removes soluble and insoluble impurities from water at a rate and capacity that exceeds all others, even Hypersorb , by over 500%. *Purigen ; removes proteins, nitrites and nitrates, ammonia, and a broad spectrum of organics*, yet its impact on trace elements is minimal. It significantly raises redox. It polishes water to unparalleled clarity. Like hypersorb, purigen darkens progressively as it exhausts, and is easily renewed by treating with household bleach. A 100 ml bag of purigen purifies and polishes up to 100 gallons of water for up to six months. Purigen is designed for both marine and freshwater use. Not to be used with any products with slime coat in them, this can cause the product to become toxic.


So just to clear up my confusion, Purigen removes the nitrogenous organic waste waste that would normally create ammonia, nitrites and nitrates? Vs Matrix which supports a nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria which rmoves amonia, nitrites and nitrates?

So whether I use Matrix or Purigen either way I am without nitrates correct? Which was the argument as to why I would not want to use Matrix in a planted tank. Am I missing something?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Like fsh keeps pointing out, Purigen works differently from Matrix. Purigen works much more like carbon, absorbing impurities. 

According to Seachem, Purigen won't absorb non-organic sources of nitrAtes, only organic- so if you're dosing ferts it won't matter. Whether or not you want to use either product in a planted tank is the same debate whether or not to use carbon... some ppl do, some ppl don't, you can have success either way.

Seachem also claims that Purigen was designed to focus specifically on organic compounds that discolor water, like tannins/humic acids. http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/seachem/36654-purigen-6.html


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

I quoted from Seachems site. They manufacture it. 

No, you wont be totally void of nitrates. Both these produces help reduce nitrates, in one way or another, but I have never seen them totally rid a tank of them and I have used both these products for yrs.

Plants like Nitrates. They are (if planted heavily) a great nitrate "sponge". Alot of people actually add Nitrates to their tanks.


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

idontknow said:


> I should have read the information on the matrix a little more carefully. Lauraleellbp, was that a joke on post 86 of yours? About me needing the purigen? On the website it says it also removed NitrAtes like Matrix.



I think that the only joke is that it was post # 86.. omg.. this is hilarious.. poor thread that we took over:biggrin:


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

lauraleellbp said:


> Seachem also claims that Purigen was designed to focus specifically on organic compounds that discolor water, like tannins/humic acids. http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/seachem/36654-purigen-6.html


That is the reason that many people use it, for its polishing qualities. I know that is the main reason I use it.


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

filters.. suck... matrix sucks, purigen sucks, bio noodles suck, filter sponge sucks.... inert chemical biological ecological economical illogical logical southern cal... blah blah... lmao... you guys crack me up... seriously.. this is one of the best threads on this board... 

thanks to everyone who participated to keep me entertained! woot woot!:hihi:


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Torpedobarb said:


> I think that the only joke is that it was post # 86.. omg.. this is hilarious.. poor thread that we took over:biggrin:


Yeah but we had fun doing it! :biggrin:


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

* fanatic leans to the left and farts in Torpedobarbs general direction *


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

fshfanatic said:


> That is the reason that many people use it, for its polishing qualities. I know that is the main reason I use it.


OMG fsh quoted me!

Stop the presses! Hold all flights! Call the President!

How many stars is that worth? :angel:


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Torpedobarb said:


> filters.. suck... matrix sucks, purigen sucks, bio noodles suck, filter sponge sucks.... inert chemical biological ecological economical illogical logical southern cal... blah blah... lmao... you guys crack me up... seriously.. this is one of the best threads on this board...
> 
> thanks to everyone who participated to keep me entertained! woot woot!:hihi:


I even tried a couple of times to get Les to bite on the whole "filter floss is the BEST mechanical media" but never could... LOL


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

fshfanatic said:


> * fanatic leans to the left and farts in Torpedobarbs general direction *


smells like old potato chips and cheerwine


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> OMG fsh quoted me!
> 
> Stop the presses! Hold all flights! Call the President!
> 
> How many stars is that worth? :angel:



the red phone was ringing here.. but I am too busy reading to pick it up:hihi:


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> I even tried a couple of times to get Les to bite on the whole "filter floss is the BEST mechanical media" but never could... LOL


omg.. get him and cleveland to get in here and I will have to put on the flak jacket!

there would be so many F bombs dropped... and I mean *FILTER* bombs! :hihi:


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

lauraleellbp said:


> I even tried a couple of times to get Les to bite on the whole "filter floss is the BEST mechanical media" but never could... LOL


But it is not. I micron cartridge in a pressurized system is the most efficient mechanical media.

I quote you all the time. Generally to state you are wrong. :angel:


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

wow.. that was a good one fsh... I have to hand it to him laura.. sorry!


you coded!


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## Lnb (Apr 15, 2008)

*Stop!!*

OK folks, it's time for everyone to stop and thank Bill Gates for giving us Windows! For without window we wouldn't be conversing on 3-4 or more threads at the same time!

Now all bow .............. *as i slowly back out of this thread*

Ding, ding ... please back to places everyone ....... GO!!

:hihi:


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

:hihi: oh.... she wants in too... inb gets pummeled!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

fshfanatic said:


> But it is not. I micron cartridge in a pressurized system is the most efficient mechanical media.
> 
> I quote you all the time. Generally to state you are wrong. :angel:


I'm a woman. You HAVE to factor cost-effectiveness in here somewhere, so I'll still disagree with you.

Apparently you're just a glutton for punishment! :biggrin:

C'mon Imb- jump in- it's a free-for-all! :hihi:


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## Lnb (Apr 15, 2008)

> :hihi: oh.... she wants in too... inb gets pummeled!


Sssh ..... I'm not here. I'm cruising for a Co2 right now. *poof gone*


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

lnb said:


> Sssh ..... I'm not here. I'm cruising for a Co2 right now. *poof gone*


LOL don't worry, Resistance is Futile... You'll be back :bounce:


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## idontknow (May 9, 2008)

Torpedobarb said:


> filters.. suck... matrix sucks, purigen sucks, bio noodles suck, filter sponge sucks.... inert chemical biological ecological economical illogical logical southern cal... blah blah... lmao... you guys crack me up... seriously.. this is one of the best threads on this board...
> 
> thanks to everyone who participated to keep me entertained! woot woot!:hihi:


I would just like to take this time to take credit for starting this :bounce:


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

that is what I look like doing jumping jacks!


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## lescarpentier (Feb 2, 2008)

Torpedobarb said:


> that is what I look like doing jumping jacks!


You think that is bad.
This is my normal mode of conveyance...:bounce:


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

lauraleellbp said:


> I'm a woman. You HAVE to factor cost-effectiveness in here somewhere, so I'll still disagree with you.
> 
> Apparently you're just a glutton for punishment! :biggrin:


One time purchase verses disposable media. You also have to factor in time taken by constant removal and replacement of floss. Where Micron filters can be back flushed in seconds. No fuss no muss.


lnb said:


> OK folks, it's time for everyone to stop and thank Bill Gates for giving us Windows! For without window we wouldn't be conversing on 3-4 or more threads at the same time!
> 
> Now all bow .............. *as i slowly back out of this thread*
> 
> ...


Winblows? I am on a Linux box.


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## Lnb (Apr 15, 2008)

> Winblows? I am on a Linux box.


So what! 

M$ and all that .......... as long as it works and it's color coded I'm happy. Show off! :flick:


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

My experience with micron filters is the opposite- they are the ones that get clogged to the point of no return- no squeezing, rinsing, back-flushing or anything will get them back to optimum performance.

Here's the advantage of media baskets- replacing the floss takes 10 min to disassemble, reassemble, and hook back up the filter. With the Filstar's nifty shut-off valve I don't even need to reprime the filter if I make sure the canister is completely filled with water first.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

lnb said:


> So what!
> 
> M$ and all that .......... as long as it works and it's color coded I'm happy. Show off! :flick:


AHA! I told you you'd be back! :thumbsup: :bounce:


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## idontknow (May 9, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> Here's the advantage of media baskets- replacing the floss takes 10 min to disassemble, reassemble, and hook back up the filter. With the Filstar's nifty shut-off valve I don't even need to reprime the filter if I make sure the canister is completely filled with water first.


That is what sold me on the xp3. 

Team-Lazy


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

lnb said:


> So what!
> 
> M$ and all that .......... as long as it works and it's color coded I'm happy. Show off! :flick:


I was responding to your comment:


> OK folks, it's time for *everyone* to stop and thank Bill Gates for giving us Windows!


Not everyone uses Windows or other MS products. So, thats what. 



lauraleellbp said:


> My experience with micron filters is the opposite- they are the ones that get clogged to the point of no return- no squeezing, rinsing, back-flushing or anything will get them back to optimum performance.


Never had that problem. However, I always had a spare and just swapped them out. Rinsed the dirty one then soaked in a 5 gallon bucket with bleech and water for a couple days.


lauraleellbp said:


> Here's the advantage of media baskets- replacing the floss takes 10 min to disassemble, reassemble, and hook back up the filter. With the Filstar's nifty shut-off valve I don't even need to reprime the filter if I make sure the canister is completely filled with water first.


The only filter I ever had an issue with priming was fluval. Bleh. I have never had an issue keeping a prime with my Eheims. With the classics just pop off the top pull out the floss and replace. No bothersome baskets to deal with.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

fshfanatic said:


> Never had that problem. However, I always had a spare and just swapped them out. Rinsed the dirty one then soaked in a 5 gallon bucket with bleech and water for a couple days.


Too much work! 




> The only filter I ever had an issue with priming was fluval. Bleh. I have never had an issue keeping a prime with my Eheims. With the classics just pop off the top pull out the floss and replace. No bothersome baskets to deal with.


...then you have to suck on it to reprime... LOL


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## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> T
> ...then you have to suck on it to reprime... LOL


you stick some airline down the intake and suck and it primes real easy


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

lauraleellbp said:


> ...then you have to suck on it to reprime... LOL


I have never lost prime with my eheims. Never. The Fluvals were a PIA, thats why I don't like or use them.



fishsandwitch said:


> you stick some airline down the intake and suck and it primes real easy


Had to do that with the fluvals all the time! Hated them.


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## MedRed (May 20, 2008)

wow... this thread... lol. completely off topic. man i'm glad to be home!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Are we? I thought we'd sorta come back around... sort of... maybe at least 1 in 5 posts, anyways? ROFL


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

idontknow said:


> That is what sold me on the xp3.
> 
> Team-Lazy


I am definitely on that team! :thumbsup:


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> Are we? I thought we'd sorta come back around... sort of... maybe at least 1 in 5 posts, anyways? ROFL



you guys strive for excellence.. don't worry!:eek5:


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