# To Excel or Not To Excel



## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

It's an excellent algaecide when used carefully, but Seachem's marketing really frustrates me since (like most people) I felt duped into thinking it was a carbon source. There are a bunch of threads on here about what glutaraldehyde is and isn't that are worth your time. More than a few heated discussions too. Seeing as it's a hospital antiseptic re-purposed for aquariums, I would argue that it isn't "necessary" in any tank. It has its purposes for killing film algae and biofilm for sure though. I used to buy it by the 4 liter bottle, but rarely use it anymore since I keep shrimp in almost all of my tanks these days and their diet is film algae and biofilm.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @DigityDog70,

Why is it one or the other? 

I used to use Excel/glutaraldehyde heavily (standard 'Initial Dose' and 2X 'Daily Dose') until I found that it seemed to be causing 'stunting' on some of my plant species.

I still use Excel/glutaraldehyde however just the standard 'Initial Dose' after water changes and one 'Daily Dose' per week.

-Roy


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I stopped using it routinely about 4 months ago in my tanks and I really haven't noticed a difference in plant growth/ algae growth. 
To tell you the truth, I stopped using it because I worry about the frequent exposure to me and my health. I was not using gloves while I was handling it and knew that I would continue not to ( forget to) and just feel that it was better for me to stop using. 

So far, for me, I havent noticed any difference in my low-tech tank.


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## kgbudge (Feb 8, 2019)

I found it quite helpful for bringing black brush algae under control. I haven't used it since. The notion that glutaraldehyde can be used by plants as a carbon source seems more than a little fishy to me, so to speak. Glutaraldehyde-6-phosphate is an intermediate in photosynthesis, but that -6-phosphate is awfully, awfully important.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Discusluv said:


> I stopped using it routinely about 4 months ago in my tanks and I really haven't noticed a difference in plant growth/ algae growth.


Agreed.

IMO, doesn't really make any difference in a well managed tank.

Might be useful for spot treatment of certain algae, but IME little value in regular dosing.


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## Quesenek (Sep 26, 2008)

I used metricide for awhile thinking that it helped prevent algae, however even when dosing upwards of 3x the recommended amount daily through my auto doser I found that it did nothing to the algae when I had a massive outbreak of pretty much any kind of possible algae.

My recommendation is to not even bother as I've not seen anything in my tank that suggests it does much beyond spot treating situations.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

In terms of using excel for growth, I was able to grow a few species, most notably Blyxa and Riccia (submersed) without using co2 and/or dirt. The way it helps is a little suspect, but I think it makes a marginal difference in some plants by cleaning the leaf surface thus making carbon/nutrients easier to intake.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

When I ran a low tech tank, it made a big difference with high lighting. In such a situation, with too much light and no injected CO2, plants will suffer. Excel got me across that bridge because it does add carbon. Additionally, in such a situation, algae can run rampant and Excel can help minimize that. 

In a high tech tank, such as I now have, I don't use it (CO2 replaces it) other than as an occasional algaecide in a one-time dose to kill [only] hair algae when it makes a rare appearance. In that case, you need to go far above recommended dosing levels and use 1-1.5ml/gal (with other caveats).


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## DigityDog70 (Jan 20, 2017)

Hello @Seattle_Aquarist Thanks for chiming in! I'm asking myself if I need Excel and if so, why? Really it involves more than just Excel. I'm looking into a different EI dosing regimen and now I'm using CO2(again). So, if I use Excel, it won't be part of the Seachem dosing calendar anymore, it will be for proactively preventing algae and hopefully not so much for dealing with algae if I can prevent it. I'm sure I'll still have some algae, it doesn't seem realistic that I can prevent green dust algae in my tanks.


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

I stopped using it and have not noticed a difference one way or another. I spend so much on this hobby I need to cut out any extraneous nonsense.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Quesenek said:


> I used metricide for awhile thinking that it helped prevent algae, however even when dosing upwards of 3x the recommended amount daily through my auto doser I found that it did nothing to the algae when I had a massive outbreak of pretty much any kind of possible algae.
> 
> My recommendation is to not even bother as I've not seen anything in my tank that suggests it does much beyond spot treating situations.


3x recommended isn't usually near enough..


1mL/gallon for Met14 or Excel will be effective.
I preferred doing that every 2 days for an algae outbreak.

That said it's not a daily thing, even in low doses.. 

Keep in mind some things really don't like it.
Report of damage to Vals in particular. Some say you can acclimate them (slow buildup in strength) but ???

If you ever unbalance your tank and get a bad case of BBA you'll really appreciate it.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

jeffkrol said:


> Keep in mind some things really don't like it.
> Report of damage to Vals in particular. Some say you can acclimate them (slow buildup in strength) but ???.


That was my experience. I'd heard conflicting reports about whether it damaged vals or not. I started using it in my low tech tank--sporadically at first, then daily at the recommended dose. So I guess I did inadvertently build up the dose slowly. Even at full dose my vals weren't deterred in the slightest--in fact they exploded and took over the tank. The one thing I did notice was that when I had to start trimming the leaves because they were over 3 ft long and shading out everything below, the cut ends did show damage. The cut leaves kept slowly dying back, and never really looked good. But the untrimmed leaves showed no damage at all.


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## JCombra (Oct 11, 2018)

I'm glad I stumbled in here this morning to find this discussion ! I went through two gallons of Metricide over the years WANTING to believe it was doing something . After I ran out, I got a little paranoid, but didn't buy anymore.....guess what....it did NOTHING for my tanks.... both high and low tech .....I thought it was me !!... LOL .... Sometimes I think you WANT to add stuff to your tank.....you read all the forums..... and you feel like you have to always be doing or adding something...... as time goes on, I found the LESS I do, the better, and more STABLE my tanks have become..... routine cleaning..... water changes, and CONSISTENCY seem to be the keys to a well run aquarium. Again, different strokes for different folks, but Glut was a total waste of money for me.

Jim


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## mboley (Jan 26, 2018)

On the other hand, I have used Excel on this low tech tank since its beginning seven months ago. Theres no doubt in my mind that Excel contributed to its success


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## Matt69 (Jul 9, 2017)

DigityDog70 said:


> Is Excel really necessary in a heavily planted, High Tech tank?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I don’t think excel is necessary in a high tech tank. But I do know if your going to be using seachem dosing chart with seachem products in a high tech tank you better have a decent budget. Low tech I think it’s fine but in high tech you have to dose like 5 to 10 x what the recommend or it isn’t enough. 
Also I don’t know if it’s true but I have read on other forums that seachem paid Tom Barr to find out the pathway that plants were able to use excell and then they paid him not to tell anybody. Tom’s stance has been its OK to use but do not overdose so that’s what I would say. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Matt69 said:


> Also I don’t know if it’s true but I have read on other forums that seachem paid Tom Barr to find out the pathway that plants were able to use excell and then they paid him not to tell anybody.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Do they supply any proof when they make these innuendos about Barr and Seachem?
Or, is it a case that Im going to make this claim and just let it float out there-- for the suspicious minded to run a way with. Its easy to do that, you know- you can always just say "I dont know if its true. Im just repeating it."


Once done, it circulates ( like it will here) and innuendos become the foundation of truth.


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

I used Excel for several years then stopped.
Since stropping my tanks now have more hair algae and/or diatoms (brown algae) and biofilm.
While using it I had good growth under stronger lighting and no co2. 
Note many plants don't do well with it such as vals and subwasertang. I was able to dose in a tank with vals ONLY when I had a ton of other fast growing plants to absorb it quickly.
Sadly when I tried to start dosing excel again in a fissidens tank it started killing my fissidens.. but in the past I was doing 2x-3x dose in w very lush fissidens tank.. perhaps it couldn't absorb it fast enough now so it damaged the plants.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Discusluv,

When Tom Barr did one of his talks here in Seattle (he has done several) he discussed how one of the molecules in Excel / Glutaraldehyde can insert itself into the Calvin Cycle and allow the plants to make additional glucose, one of the building blocks of cells.


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## Matt69 (Jul 9, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> Do they supply any proof when they make these innuendos about Barr, Excel use, and Seachem?
> Or, is it a case that Im going to make this claim and just let it float out there-- for the suspicious minded to run a way with. Its easy to do that, you know- you can always just say "I dont know if its true. Im just repeating it."
> 
> 
> Once done, it circulates ( like it will here) and innuendos become the foundation of truth.




Anybody can go to the Barr report and get Tom’s opinion on running a high tech, low tech or excell tank he has been a regular over there. 
As far as if seachem paid him I don’t know if that’s true, it was on Ukaps.org where I read it and I’m not a member there I have read it in several threads there. I have not asked or done any research as the basis of that claim. So I can not verify how truthful it is. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @*Discusluv*,
> 
> When Tom Barr did one of his talks here in Seattle (he has done several) he discussed how one of the molecules in Excel / Glutaraldehyde can insert itself into the Calvin Cycle and allow the plants to make additional glucose, one of the building blocks of cells.


Go back and read my post more carefully. 

You somehow missed the point.

Bump:


Matt69 said:


> *As far as if seachem paid him I don’t know if that’s true,* it was on Ukaps.org where I read it and I’m not a member there I have read it in several threads there. I have not asked or done any research as the basis of that claim. *So I can not verify how truthful it is.*
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 This is the point.

Bump:


Matt69 said:


> Also I don’t know if it’s true but I have read on other forums that seachem paid Tom Barr to find out the pathway that plants were able to use excell and then they paid him not to tell anybody.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Spelled out even more clearly.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @Discusluv,
> 
> When Tom Barr did one of his talks here in Seattle (he has done several) he discussed how one of the molecules in Excel / Glutaraldehyde can insert itself into the Calvin Cycle and allow the plants to make additional glucose, one of the building blocks of cells.


But clearly does not act like co2. It only works on certain plants and in certain environments whereas co2 all plants/setups benefit with the add'l production of glucose.


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## kgbudge (Feb 8, 2019)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> When Tom Barr did one of his talks here in Seattle (he has done several) he discussed how one of the molecules in Excel / Glutaraldehyde can insert itself into the Calvin Cycle and allow the plants to make additional glucose, one of the building blocks of cells.


This is the claim I am very skeptical of. Glutaraldehyde is not part of the Calvin cycle. Glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate is, but it's a very different compound,


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## JCombra (Oct 11, 2018)

That's a GORGEOUS tank Mboley !!!


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

mboley said:


> On the other hand, I have used Excel on this low tech tank since its beginning seven months ago. Theres no doubt in my mind that Excel contributed to its success
> View attachment 891467


But have you stopped using it to see if anything changes? Because I thought it was contributing too and then I stopped using it and realized it wasn't worth the expense.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Triport said:


> But have you stopped using it to see if anything changes? Because I thought it was contributing too and then I stopped using it and realized it wasn't worth the expense.


+1....I was going to ask the same thing.

There are so many things going on in a planted aquarium, it can be difficult to pinpoint causal effect. 

I thought the same thing about Glut years ago, then just stopped dosing it cold turkey and guess what? No change, if anything better.

Of course, that was in MY tank. Others results may vary.


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## kgbudge (Feb 8, 2019)

I've known for a while, but am discovering yet again, how important it is to control your variables.

Change one thing at a time. If you change three things all at once, you don't know what's responsible for any changes you see. 

I'm working through this with a tank where a number of plants suddenly started doing better when I began treatment for a bout of ich. Quite a few variables changed during the treatment -- lighting, temperature, water changes, fertlization, CO2, etc. Now I'm trying to figure out what it was that benefited the plants. May take a while.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

The way I look at excel is that we can agree (I think) that it is an algaecide. So algae on plants affects growth. If excel is cleaning the surface of any algae (even on a level we don't really see) it can help growth. In a hi-tech fast growing environment I don't think it's really needed nor would you see any incremental benefit, but in other systems I do think it's beneficial to some plant growth.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

kgbudge said:


> This is the claim I am very skeptical of. Glutaraldehyde is not part of the Calvin cycle. Glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate is, but it's a very different compound,



Hi @kgbudge,

I took organic chemistry about 50 years ago and have forgotten more than I remember. However the explanation as to how a molecule glutaraldehyde could be utilized by a plant in the Calvan Cycle made sense to me. Like so many aspects of this hobby I think we all have to make our own decisions. If CO2 is being injected into a tank Excel is probably only providing algaecide properties.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

kgbudge said:


> I've known for a while, but am discovering yet again, how important it is to control your variables.
> 
> Change one thing at a time. If you change three things all at once, you don't know what's responsible for any changes you see.
> 
> I'm working through this with a tank where a number of plants suddenly started doing better when I began treatment for a bout of ich. Quite a few variables changed during the treatment -- lighting, temperature, water changes, fertlization, CO2, etc. Now I'm trying to figure out what it was that benefited the plants. May take a while.


You hit the nail on the head there.........but controlling parameters and making changes in isolation takes great patience. Your situation sounds interesting. Look forward to hearing more thoughts about it.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Asteroid said:


> The way I look at excel is that we can agree (I think) that it is an algaecide.


I no longer use it in the tank.
Use a cap full in my trimming tray when trimming plants.
Usually 48oz of tank water are in the tray when trimming.
Cleans the plants a bit and tends to release a lot of little snails that find there way to Davey Jone's Locker!
I wonder if snails survive in the septic tank? :grin2::grin2::grin2:


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

Never mind.


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## greenthings (Aug 29, 2019)

*Gluteraldehyde*

I would consider my planted tanks an unscientific experiment which means I usually have no proof of why certain things work. With that stated, I have used API CO2 Booster and Aquarium Co-op Easy Carbon and saw the BBA on rocks and wood turn white and fade away in a few days just by dosing in the water column. I have not used Excel but I plan to try some soon. 

Using some form of Gluteraldehyde along with Siamese algae eaters is my "go to" method of algae control. It appears to me that the Gluteraldehyde impairs the algae enough to allow the SAE's to control it. If I get lazy and don't keep up on partial water changes the algae will win the race for light and nutrients.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

greenthings said:


> I would consider my planted tanks an unscientific experiment which means I usually have no proof of why certain things work. With that stated, I have used API CO2 Booster and Aquarium Co-op Easy Carbon and saw the BBA on rocks and wood turn white and fade away in a few days just by dosing in the water column. I have not used Excel but I plan to try some soon.
> 
> Using some form of Gluteraldehyde along with Siamese algae eaters is my "go to" method of algae control. It appears to me that the Gluteraldehyde impairs the algae enough to allow the SAE's to control it. If I get lazy and don't keep up on partial water changes the algae will win the race for light and nutrients.


 I think that it is entirely possible that glut works for some in using on a routine basis. I just found, for myself and my low-tech tank, there was no difference after no longer using it routinely. 

Again, I would not claim it was across the board not effective. How would I know what it does for your tank? 

In fact, I still will use it to spray on BBA on hardscape, intakes, etc... to control it from becoming a real issue like it has in the past. Maybe 1x monthly? But, I use gloves and am very careful with it because I am unsure of its toxicity.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Do I use it? Yes.

What kind? Met14 or Excel, whichever is more convenient.

How do I describe it? It's a mild algaecide that allows users to run slightly stronger light when dosed into a tank without CO2, if it is dosed at a fairly stiff rate and on a consistent daily basis. It's algaecide properties make it a useful tool for treating bad areas of the tank or bad pieces of plant tissue / decor / equipment. It is not a CO2 replacement, or a CO2 supplement, it is a mild algaecide that may or may not break down protein films on plant tissue allowing them better access to atmospheric CO2 naturally dissolved in the water. It can and will hurt living things if used incorrectly or irresponsibly. 

Where do I use it? "Low tech" with above average lighting intensity and spot treating areas / plant dips / filter outlets & intakes.

Why do I use it? It does help when combating algae (tank dosed or spot treatments), it kills algae when using as a plant dip, it kills stubborn algae on equipment in the tank (spot treating)... see the trend here, not CO2, algaecide. 

My thoughts: Keep it in the tool box, use it when needed (if needed) or don't use it if you feel more comfortable without it. Serve the soup you're best at cooking, and only adjust your recipe when needed. Excel / Met14 is a small ingredient in a large stock pot, include it or not, it's your soup after all.

Great... now I'm craving soup.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

I keep it in my toolbox, but it is not something for my tank that needs to be added all the time. My most common use for it is a 50/50 mix of Met14 and Hydrogen Peroxide, in a spray bottle. I use this during water changes to spray all the equipment down while the tank drains (the intake, spray bars, heater...). I find it helps keep those extremely clean, and extends the time between completely removing those components for a bleach bath.

I do have it for spot treating (which I have not done in a while), as well as a pump bottle to dose directly in the tank (sometimes during water change, sometimes during the week, but no real method here- probably unnecessary at this point).

As everything in this hobby, each tank is different and each person is different. I say no right or wrong answer on this one!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Quagulator said:


> Do I use it? Yes.
> 
> What kind? Met14 or Excel, whichever is more convenient.
> 
> ...


Do you use gloves while handling it or just wash hands after using it? Or do you think there is no issue to users health with daily, temporary exposure?

Bump:


Grobbins48 said:


> I keep it in my toolbox, but it is not something for my tank that needs to be added all the time. My most common use for it is a 50/50 mix of Met14 and Hydrogen Peroxide, in a spray bottle. I use this during water changes to spray all the equipment down while the tank drains (the intake, spray bars, heater...). I find it helps keep those extremely clean, and extends the time between completely removing those components for a bleach bath.
> 
> I do have it for spot treating (which I have not done in a while), as well as a pump bottle to dose directly in the tank (sometimes during water change, sometimes during the week, but no real method here- probably unnecessary at this point).
> 
> As everything in this hobby, each tank is different and each person is different. I say no right or wrong answer on this one!


 Same question as @Quagulator

How do you handle glut? Gloves, wash hands after? Any concerns of toxicity?


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Discusluv said:


> Do you use gloves while handling it or just wash hands after using it? Or do you think there is no issue to users health with daily, temporary exposure?


I don't touch it, I don't spray it. 

It's dosed via auto doser and a large container so I don't have to top it off very often. I always have clean fresh water in a small pail to use if it spills any. 

Spot treating is done with a syringe, and mixing a plant dip solution is done with a syringe. Syringe is always rinsed really well when I'm done with it. Plants are removed from the dip with planting tongs which are cleaned in old tank water prior to me dumping it on my lawn. Plants in the dip are rinsed in old tank water before I let them float in the tank for a while to dilute any traces left on them before I reach in the tank to plant them. 

Old tubing and containers are thrown out and not washed or re-used.

I work with chemicals every day through work, I don't need another getting on my self >


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Quagulator said:


> I don't touch it, I don't spray it.
> 
> It's dosed via auto doser and a large container so I don't have to top it off very often. I always have clean fresh water in a small pail to use if it spills any.
> 
> ...



That's excellent care in handling.


It appears that the main issues with exposure are skin contact/lung exposure:


https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/hospital/hazards/glutaraldehyde/glut.html


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> Do you use gloves while handling it or just wash hands after using it? Or do you think there is no issue to users health with daily, temporary exposure?
> 
> Bump:
> Same question as @Quagulator
> ...


Always wash my hands after, and work carefully with it. Use a funnel when putting into the other bottles, and same as Quag with the spot treatment- which I have not done in a LONG time. 

Never really thought about health concerns with the spray. Typically when I spray it I am at the point where I walk away from the tank for a while after- just letting it drain out the window.
@Quagulator what dosing pump are you using? I have been thinking of grabbing one and moving to daily micros, but with the dosing pump. Actually- maybe a better topic for my journal. I'll bring it up over there later!


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

I have used it on a varying level. Lately just during water changes one dose. Sometimes a dose mid week. I was hoping it would help control GSA however in my experience that is not the case that I can tell. Phosphate dosing does seem to help with GSA on the plants or atleast weakens it enough the OTOs can eat it. Nerite snails will eat it regardless. 

Excel does seem to work better on things like that slimy green string algae or that stronger courser greenish thread clumpy algae that likes to grow in moss. 

Just my experience. 

As far as handling well wont say how I handle it. Then again I dont live in CA so I am probably ok anyways .....


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## Shazwazer (Jan 28, 2011)

For those that spot treat excel, can you please share how that is done? Im weary of spot treating for fear of dosing too much considering its effects to invertebrates and some fish.

EDIT: Just noticed that someone mentioned they spot dose with a syringe. Are there any other methods? Also, has anyone had any ill effects after spot treating due to the amount of excel that is being put into the system? Thanks, all. Great thread.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

I spot treat out of the water (brush, spray, dip, pour over... whatever best applies). I know people use syringes to blast it underwater with filters off, but I had no luck killing BBA that way which is the only algae I turn to glut for these days.


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

I would suggest if spot treating with a syringe in the tank to fill the syringe with the recommended dose (or whatever dose you want to give) and just use that amount to spot treat. In actuality you are treating the entire tank just spraying it in one spot. If you only have the recommended dosage in the syringe then you wont overdose the tank. 

Or do as BR2 suggested but rinse the items off so as not to OD your tank when putting things back in.


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## Shazwazer (Jan 28, 2011)

Quint said:


> I would suggest if spot treating with a syringe in the tank to fill the syringe with the recommended dose (or whatever dose you want to give) and just use that amount to spot treat. In actuality you are treating the entire tank just spraying it in one spot. If you only have the recommended dosage in the syringe then you wont overdose the tank.
> 
> Or do as BR2 suggested but rinse the items off so as not to OD your tank when putting things back in.



Thank you! Unfortunately, some of the most infected areas of my tank are hardscapes that would be impossible to remove without dismantling the tank. Im fighting BBA algae now and i think i will go with the syringe treatment with the recommended dose to prevent an overdose.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

I remember reading in an old algae thread about someone who spot treated by placing a plastic container over the affected plant, then used a syringe to inject glut and/or H2O2 through a small hole into the container. That kept the chemicals directly on the plant for better results. Makes sense, and saves money by not treating the whole tank--and exposing your livestock to all those chemicals.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Desert Pupfish said:


> I remember reading in an old algae thread about someone who spot treated by placing a plastic container over the affected plant, then used a syringe to inject glut and/or H2O2 through a small hole into the container. That kept the chemicals directly on the plant for better results. Makes sense, and saves money by not treating the whole tank--and exposing your livestock to all those chemicals.


It wasn't that long ago ...was it?:smile2:

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/1294877-what-deficiency-my-rotala-macrandra-3.html#post11234245

I've increased the H2O2 to 30ml / gallon.


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## Dreanimal (Sep 3, 2015)

I dose 16ml of excel daily into a 55gal medium-high tank. I have no algae and the fish haven't shown any negative effects. I dose Flourish, Trace, Nitrogen, and Iron throughout the week to keep levels up. 

Stocked with a few firemouth cichlids, a small group of cherry barbs, a small group of glass blood-fin tetras, and a small clown nose pleco. Filtered with an FX4 with FX6 outflow do reduce flow velocity and retain the mass flow. 

I have read that Vallisneria doesn't like excel, but it grows *rampant *in my tank.


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