# How to keep java fern growing big and green?



## Blah4Life

Thanks for asking this question. I'm curious about this too. I read that java ferns should are best planted directly on a rock or wood. I recently planted one in my tank, but planted it right in my dirt. Is that bad for the fern? Should I relocate it?

Sorry, OP, don't mean to hijack your thread, I just thought it was a related question. I love the look of your tank by the way! The different levels and use of rocks and sand are great. Makes me wish I would have used some sand in my scape.


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## DrGonzo

Blah4Life said:


> Thanks for asking this question. I'm curious about this too. I read that java ferns should are best planted directly on a rock or wood. I recently planted one in my tank, but planted it right in my dirt. Is that bad for the fern? Should I relocate it?
> 
> Sorry, OP, don't mean to hijack your thread, I just thought it was a related question. I love the look of your tank by the way! The different levels and use of rocks and sand are great. Makes me wish I would have used some sand in my scape.


Yes relocate it, tie it to a piece of wood or stone with sewing thread or fishing line, can also super glue but don't get it everywhere as it turns white underwater.


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## Blah4Life

Cool. Thanks! I'm going to do that tomorrow. I'll probably use string or fishing line, otherwise I'd have to drain too much water.


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## DrGonzo

If you put it on driftwood or a rock with superglue just pull the piece out and towel dry and put on the superglue, let it set for a minute or two and voila! you're done. No water drainage necessary.


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## CryptKeeper54

Does anyone think I should be dosing ferts in small amounts? Or should I leave my ferns alone and just do water changes every week.


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## brainwavepc.com

Your gonna need co2 and better lighting scheme to make java fern look bright green and bushy. Uneven light won't make it easy. Also ferts will help


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## ony

You don't need CO2 for java fern. 

Ive had some growing in a low light tank for a year or so and its only about 4x the size it was when I got it but definitely bright green and bushy. Moved it to medium light a couple of months back and started dosing excel. The only difference so far is that it grows much faster.

Don't really know what went wrong with the OP's last batch. I just threw mine in the tank, no special treatment/ferts etc.


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## CryptKeeper54

Thanks for the input. I think I'll let them be and watch how they look and grow in this tank with just routine water changes. I'll update this thread in a couple months or so.


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## bloo

You do NOT need CO2 to get Java fern big, bright, and green. 

I grow it in 2 tanks, both low tech. The first is my office 65g tank. It gets weekly ferts. Grows under a single T5HO with a bad reflector. This tank grows LOADS of it. In fact I stocked my 265g with ferns I had to pull out of this tank because they overgrew everything else. My 265g tank grows them pretty well too (although not quite as well as the 65g). That tank has 2 T5HO with good reflectors 36" off the substrate. I do not dose that tank with ferts at all. The ferns are nice looking and pretty big in both tanks.


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## CryptKeeper54

@ bloo:

What exactly is the fert regimen u have going? Sounds like ferts or no ferts, java fern will do ok once its established.


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## GrampsGrunge

What hasn't been asked in this thread is, what is the chemistry of the water coming out of the tap, used to change the tank water?

Most municipalities will have a in depth chemistry make up of their tap water for the asking if they're anywhere near honest. I know our previous city did so, you could get a monthly report on dissolved gasses, solids, minerals, trace elements, and possible bad chemicals. 

Since we're on a well system our water is a lot more stable because of no chlorine, and seasonal CO2 because of heavy rainfall adding, but the chemistry is less friendly to plants so I have to add trace and iron supplement. 

Folks whose tanks are doing great with little input other than frequent water changes are probably benefiting from the chemistry of the water straight from the tap.


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## DogFish

brainwavepc.com said:


> .... better lighting scheme to make java fern look bright green and bushy.,,,


*I completely disagree* 

You could not have picked a better light the PAR38 LED flood for this shape tank.

What you need to know is that light comes down with a 'cone' type effect. the center will get more light that the outer ring. If your plant all the same plants on the edges they will get the same amount of light and have the same growth pattern. Any plants directly under will get more intense light.

I run two of these on my 40 and I've learned to plant to take advantage of that so I get the growth I want. The way the 'cone' of light illuminates forces us to look at aquascapong differently that complete even coverage of conventional lights.

Also, most commercial grown Java fern is grown emerged. Those leaves are a bit thicker than submersed leaves. They will die off and be replaced with Submessed leaves. Be patient and allow the plant to adapt.

Jaca fern is the focal point plant in my own display tank with the same lighting. (see my isg link)


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## BruceF

Java fern will grow under any conditions you like but if you want it really big, green and bushy it will need tender loving care that includes co2.


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## 150EH

You should be fine as it is, no ferts need if your fish load is high enough, plus the water changes should be every other month or you will have problems.

when you go high light, CO2, daily ferts, this is when you need weekly water changes.


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## CryptKeeper54

DogFish said:


> *I completely disagree*
> 
> You could not have picked a better light the PAR38 LED flood for this shape tank.
> 
> What you need to know is that light comes down with a 'cone' type effect. the center will get more light that the outer ring. If your plant all the same plants on the edges they will get the same amount of light and have the same growth pattern. Any plants directly under will get more intense light.


Just did a H20 change today and noticed my ferns right under my light seem to be "burning." Forgot to take a pic, but the leaves seems to be dying, turning black. Java fern on the outer perimeters seem to be doing fine, but definately not as vibrant and healthy as when I first got them. I might have to adjust the light height (as it currently sits 3 inches off water level.


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## CryptKeeper54

GrampsGrunge said:


> What hasn't been asked in this thread is, what is the chemistry of the water coming out of the tap, used to change the tank water?
> 
> Most municipalities will have a in depth chemistry make up of their tap water for the asking if they're anywhere near honest. I know our previous city did so, you could get a monthly report on dissolved gasses, solids, minerals, trace elements, and possible bad chemicals.
> 
> Since we're on a well system our water is a lot more stable because of no chlorine, and seasonal CO2 because of heavy rainfall adding, but the chemistry is less friendly to plants so I have to add trace and iron supplement.
> 
> Folks whose tanks are doing great with little input other than frequent water changes are probably benefiting from the chemistry of the water straight from the tap.


I've got to look into this. I just do 50% H2O change weekly, with nothing added. My ferns may just look worse because of emersed to submersed transition, but I have not done any scientific tests to find out. I'm just not that advanced. Anyone on the island of Oahu care to chime in?


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## CryptKeeper54

150EH said:


> You should be fine as it is, no ferts need if your fish load is high enough, plus the water changes should be every other month or you will have problems.
> 
> when you go high light, CO2, daily ferts, this is when you need weekly water changes.


Problems with weekly water changes? Can you elaborate. Is it becaue I would be disrupting beenficial bacteria or something? I do it mainly to clean the sand bottom of all the unsightly fish poop.


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## CryptKeeper54

@ dogfish: so all my emersed form leaves are going to die? Or does the leaf form structure change somehow? Does this mean I need to rescape everything from scratch, from the baby ferns that are developing on my leaves now?


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## DogFish

As the emessed leaves die new submersed leaves sprout on the rhizome. The die off is not as dramatic as crypt melt.

What I do is remove the baby ferns when they are about 1" long with a few roots,. I superglue (gel) them to the driftwood to thicken up the planting and/or start a new area. I've doubled my Java Fern in 5mos. like this.

My*TWO* bulbs are 14" from the top of the tank and mine are dimmable. I run 10hr days as the lowest level. I usually do a 2hr full power peak when I'm home to change the dimmer control. I sometimes do a short light day also.

Keep in mind that while our plants are Tropical, they do not always get full Sun 12hrs a day. The Sun moves across the sky, trees block it, there are cloudy days, there are storms.

So yes, make some height adjustments with your lighting. Give the Java a change to adapt...it will. To me the greatest thing about Java Fern us the fact it grows slow. I don't care to mirvo manage my Aquarium.

BTW - I do weekly water changes and add a tiny bit of Mircos (1 drop per 2gl)I didn't get the memo on NOT doing that for a low light/non-CO2 tank
:wink:


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## chicken

BruceF said:


> Java fern will grow under any conditions you like but if you want it really big, green and bushy it will need tender loving care that includes co2.


It may take a long time to get big, green, and bushy without co2, but co2 is not essential. I've got a lovely clump of it in my 20 long, with no ferts or co2, and only the stock lighting. It took over a year to get to its current state, but it got there.


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## chicken

DogFish said:


> BTW - I do weekly water changes and add a tiny bit of Mircos (1 drop per 2gl)I didn't get the memo on NOT doing that for a low light/non-CO2 tank
> :wink:


I believe the conventional wisdom is that weekly water changes (especially large weekly water changes) in a low light, non-co2 tank leads to algae. Something about fluctuating co2 levels from the tap water, I believe. However, this has not been true for me. I typically do large weekly water changes on all my tanks, low-tech and high-tech, and they all seem to do well with this. My experience may not be typical, however.


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## BruceF

I've been growing java fern without CO2 for about 25 years. CO2 is not essential, we all know that. But like I said if you want it to grow big and green and bushy it will need tlc and co2 to look its best.


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## CryptKeeper54

Glad to hear responses from experienced planted tank owners.

Day one of planting:










Couple months after, some dying and browning of leaves, a few baby ferns sprouting at tips of older leaves. Weekly 50% water change, no co2 or fertz:


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## LAKE

That does look like a good light selection for the tank!

Curious though, could experimenting with a lens under the LED manipulate the light distribution as desired?

Places that grind eye glass lenses often have a box of rejects that were simply cut the wrong shape for the frame and would likely have a range of prescriptions to try that will not fit well under the light. Polycarbonate (most) lenses can easily be shaped with a wet grinding wheel if you mark the center and axis before you begin. 

Maybe an uncut lens is a better choice?
Stock lenses are really cheap. If you find the prescription that you really like under your light, anti glare/reflection coatings are worth every penny. Not all coatings are equal, if you chose to get one, price is a good indicator of value or just get a hard to order Nikon lens.

That looks like a great tank/light/plant combo to try this with!

I like to set vertical driftwood on top of the roots and let it take to the wood naturally.


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## CryptKeeper54

LAKE said:


> That does look like a good light selection for the tank!
> 
> Curious though, could experimenting with a lens under the LED manipulate the light distribution as desired?
> 
> Places that grind eye glass lenses often have a box of rejects that were simply cut the wrong shape for the frame and would likely have a range of prescriptions to try that will not fit well under the light. Polycarbonate (most) lenses can easily be shaped with a wet grinding wheel if you mark the center and axis before you begin.
> 
> Maybe an uncut lens is a better choice?
> Stock lenses are really cheap. If you find the prescription that you really like under your light, anti glare/reflection coatings are worth every penny. Not all coatings are equal, if you chose to get one, price is a good indicator of value or just get a hard to order Nikon lens.
> 
> That looks like a great tank/light/plant combo to try this with!
> 
> I like to set vertical driftwood on top of the roots and let it take to the wood naturally.


Don't think I will be doing the lens experiment anytime soon. Sound cool tho...


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## CryptKeeper54

Hard to see in this pic but got a few yellow lab frys. Didn't plan on raising them so it'll be a miracle if they survive. Fish continue to hide. Reading up on "dither" fish to help with the shyness. Gonna add some neon tetras to this tank tommorow and see if I can coax my cichlids to hang out more rather than hiding in the rocks all the time.


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## kamikazi

Blah4Life said:


> Thanks for asking this question. I'm curious about this too. I read that java ferns should are best planted directly on a rock or wood. I recently planted one in my tank, but planted it right in my dirt. Is that bad for the fern? Should I relocate it?
> 
> Sorry, OP, don't mean to hijack your thread, I just thought it was a related question. I love the look of your tank by the way! The different levels and use of rocks and sand are great. Makes me wish I would have used some sand in my scape.


I would just like to point out that java fern is fine planted in the substrate as long as you don't bury the rhizome. Most people just tie it to wood or rock as it will take hold on those objects. java fern and other plants that take hold like java moss and anubius are great in tanks with inert or even no substrate.


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## exv152

Yellow labs and neons are the best combination of fish to keep together, you should definitely read up on their compatibility. As for the java ferns they do require nutrients even in a low tech setup. I read you do 50% weekly water changes but you're not adding any ferts. Usually with low tech setups the opposite is better - adding an all-inclusive fert (may once a week) along with less water changes to keep the CO2 levels consistent. Sounds like your fern may be starving for a carbon source, or a lack of other nutrients, or all the above. The lighting is good though.


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## CryptKeeper54

After doing some research, added some leopard danios as "dither" fish. Worked like a charm. I immediately saw more out and about play from my cichlids. My yellows got big quick. Beautiful fish. Java looks okay but definitely thined out cause of dying leaves. Still some new growth.... could be better but shouldn't expect much without CO2 or fertilizer regimen.


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## CryptKeeper54

exv152 said:


> Yellow labs and neons are the best combination of fish to keep together, you should definitely read up on their compatibility. As for the java ferns they do require nutrients even in a low tech setup. I read you do 50% weekly water changes but you're not adding any ferts. Usually with low tech setups the opposite is better - adding an all-inclusive fert (may once a week) along with less water changes to keep the CO2 levels consistent. Sounds like your fern may be starving for a carbon source, or a lack of other nutrients, or all the above. The lighting is good though.


Thinking I may switch it up as you suggested. Bi-weekly 50% H2O change and weekly fertz and see how it goes. Hope water quality doesn't suffer cause I think I have a huge bioload (6 yellow labs, 6 demasoni, 21 leopard danios, and 1-2 otos, actually seen them, guess they're surving for now). My ferns definately can't get worse. I love this tank but kind of wishing I had a 4 ft tank or larger for these cichlids and more ferns and anubias of course.


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## Hilde

CryptKeeper54 said:


> Does anyone think I should be dosing ferts in small amounts?


Usually ferns don't need ferts but you said you had a problem with them in the past so ferts are in need. I have found that they love phosphates. Living near a big city my water is treated with phoshates, thus they flourish without other ferts dosed. Tinking 5ml a week would be helpful. I use a baby's medicine measuring spoon, which is any drug store.


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## CryptKeeper54

Update: this is my nikon d5100 pic. You can see my ferns in better detail. Only doing bi-weekly water changes now. Water clarity and plant stability seem the same. Still contemplating a fert program for this tank. It's a lot more thinned out vs. when I first planted; got rid of a lot of dead leaves. Still got slight growth. Also, either I got a few trident ferns, or just regular ferns with a difformity for some reason. Ferns directly beneath the light seemed to have "burned."


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## Hilde

CryptKeeper54 said:


> Still contemplating a fert program for this tank.


Try Potassium sulfate from aquarium fertilizer or green leaf aquariums or perhaps the swap shop at this forum.


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## CryptKeeper54

Hilde said:


> Try Potassium sulfate from aquarium fertilizer or green leaf aquariums or perhaps the swap shop at this forum.


How much and how often? I EI dose on my nano tanks, using dry fertz from GLA. 

Did you come to this conclusion by looking at the leaves? Excuse my ignorance. I read and read and read till I go cross-eyed and it still doesn't sink in.


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## brainwavepc.com

What is your ph and kh and gh in this tank?


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## brainwavepc.com

This isn't a very good setup for your cichlids. I'm hoping your using some salts and have high pH for them.

Please consider reading up on the labs and demasoni.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/p_demasoni.php
http://webgazelle.hubpages.com/hub/Caring-For-An-Electric-Yellow-Cichlid

It is best to keep mbuna cichlids only with other mbuna cichlids. Also 55g is usually the smallest recommended for African cichlids. 34 fish in that tank is very crowded and labs can get territorial while breeding and hurt your other fish. I have a 125g cichlid setup and only 28 cichlids in it.


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## CryptKeeper54

brainwavepc.com said:


> This isn't a very good setup for your cichlids. I'm hoping your using some salts and have high pH for them.
> 
> Please consider reading up on the labs and demasoni.
> http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/p_demasoni.php
> http://webgazelle.hubpages.com/hub/Caring-For-An-Electric-Yellow-Cichlid
> 
> It is best to keep mbuna cichlids only with other mbuna cichlids. Also 55g is usually the smallest recommended for African cichlids. 34 fish in that tank is very crowded and labs can get territorial while breeding and hurt your other fish. I have a 125g cichlid setup and only 28 cichlids in it.


Will do. I have to admit, this was a rush job to satisfy my 18 mo old daughter's new found curiosity for fish. I set this tank up at my mother's house since she baby sits frequently. I just picked fish that looked great. I did brief research and knew I was taking a chance. Irresponsible fish keper on my part. I was acutally shopping for a 110 gal to transfer everything into but the craigslist deal fell thru. Thanks for the informative links.


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## jerrybforl

I have several low tech tanks. I do weekly 50% WC and no issues. With Java fern, you have to pull the babies off. They kill the mother leaf if just left. I have a huge java in my 100 gallon that gets nice CO2 and ferting. 

Use the EI method for good results. Do you know how much PAR you have from the light? 

Also I saw a demasoni in there, and they will kill your danios. How many labs do you have in there? With yellow labs, you need a nice group not just 2-3. I had a 75 set up with them and I had a about 12 in there. They were always out and about. Demasoni are far more aggressive than YLs. You need more of them than the YLs. Otherwise they will just pick on the YLs. I like the look of the scape though. 

Look into the EI method and dose once a week of each fert...KNO3, CSM+B, and K2SO4.

Dose the CSM+B once a week and the other two once a week.


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