# Advice for growing plants in gravel?



## atyshka (Jan 11, 2017)

I've got a pretty low tech setup in a 36 gal with Anubias, Javas, Amazon Swords, Melon Sword, and a new Crypt. The thing is, way back when I didn't know what I was doing and used gravel substrate. I now get that my root feeders would be way better off with planted substrate, but I'm headed off to college in less than a year and I just don't want to spend $50-70 when it won't last long. I'm trying to make the best with what I have. I'm using flourish tabs, potassium, phosphorous, and liquid CO2 but the swords aren't doing so well. The Melon sword grows a lot but the leaf ends go yellow and then brown after a little while. Meanwhile the Amazon swords are light green and sometimes almost clear. I rarely get a leaf beyond 4 inches before it starts dying off. I've heard that gravel plants are possible with the right ferts, but my current regimen just isn't working. What can I do to perk up these swords and not kill this new crypt?


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

atyshka said:


> I've got a pretty low tech setup in a 36 gal with Anubias, Javas, Amazon Swords, Melon Sword, and a new Crypt. The thing is, way back when I didn't know what I was doing and used gravel substrate. I now get that my root feeders would be way better off with planted substrate, but I'm headed off to college in less than a year and I just don't want to spend $50-70 when it won't last long. I'm trying to make the best with what I have. I'm using flourish tabs, potassium, phosphorous, and liquid CO2 but the swords aren't doing so well. The Melon sword grows a lot but the leaf ends go yellow and then brown after a little while. Meanwhile the Amazon swords are light green and sometimes almost clear. I rarely get a leaf beyond 4 inches before it starts dying off. I've heard that gravel plants are possible with the right ferts, but my current regimen just isn't working. What can I do to perk up these swords and not kill this new crypt?


Regular gravel has basically no cation exchange capacity meaning the gravel particles do not have charged, porous surfaces capable of exchanging (storing and releasing) nutrients. Therefore root tabs are needed in your case. Try adding them when you see limited or damaged growth. Likely the nutrients do not last long, the sword and crypts will uptake a lot, and microbial activity will uptake a lot, limiting the longevity of nutrients available for plant growth. This is really important for micro nutrients, as root tabs may not be able to supply enough and many plants will really on micro nutrients being taken from soil particles.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

In terms of ferts, all you need to do is supply everything via the water column. You don't need anything in the gravel. If that's what's available the plants will take it that way. This whole "heavy root" feeder thing is a myth and has been disproven over a over thousand and thousands of time by people growing swords, crypts etc, in sand, gravel and only dosing the water column. 

Just make sure you have NPK and micros going in, and doing water changes to keep the water clean and the ferts in range.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

The other option is to choose plants that are column feeders or do well as column only feeders. Then substrate choice won't really matter. That's what I'm going to attempt to do with my upcoming build because:

1. Plant substrate is pricey. Although in reality the tank I'm doing won't need a large amount of substrate as it's only a 24x18 tank...so by the calculators I've tried...9L is about all I'd really need. But see #2 as my primary reason.
2. I don't like the idea of the substrate needing replaced eventually when it stops providing nutrients and/or turns to mush. I figure if I'm going to eventually have to use root tabs anyways...why not do that from the start and save a lot of money using a cheaper substrate. My goal is to not even have to use root tabs...unless there's a plant that I just MUST have and it needs to root feed.
3. I don't really need an active substrate to buffer my water. 
4. More choices to get the look that I want.
5. I'm not one of those folks that likes and enjoys tearing tanks down and rescaping over and over again. I'm one of those that once it's setup the way I like it...I just want to leave it like that. So reason #2 concerns me most. If that concern can be dispelled...I'd certainly reconsider using a more plant specific type substrate over inert gravel/sand/crushed lava rock.

Of course if any of my reasons are flawed...I'm all ears.


***Edit...I was typing as houseofcards was posting so he beat me to the punch and actually went a step further.


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## atyshka (Jan 11, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> In terms of ferts, all you need to do is supply everything via the water column. You don't need anything in the gravel. If that's what's available the plants will take it that way. This whole "heavy root" feeder thing is a myth and has been disproven over a over thousand and thousands of time by people growing swords, crypts etc, in sand, gravel and only dosing the water column.
> 
> Just make sure you have NPK and micros going in, and doing water changes to keep the water clean and the ferts in range.


I'm doing NPK. One problem I have is bad BGA. It's a bit of a circular problem: I have very little biomass but high ferts which leads to BGA. I've tried using stem plants like anacharis to use up excess nutrients but the stem plants get coated in the stuff and die. Advice?


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

While the availability of nutrients is a topic for a different thread (it has been the topic of numerous past threads) ideally you would want to supply the plant with sources of nutrients that are easily up taken to achieve its best growth. Plants like swords and crypts, when forced to, will utilize nutrients dosed into the water column, and vise versa will use substrate derived nutrients. Is this better/worse/the same as having nutrients readily available near the root? We won't know unless we dive into a full experimental procedure to find out. 

Nutrients dosed into the water column are also not always taken in through plant leaves. Many nutrient particles are adsorbed by the substrate, and is dependent on the CEC of that substrate. So in a gravel/sand substrate there will be far less nutrients taken from the water column, and bonded to the substrate particles. So having both easily available macro and micro nutrients in the substrate, along with in the water column should provide appropriate amounts for your plants OP. It will be up to the plant to uptake which is more readily and easily available for it.


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## atyshka (Jan 11, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> In terms of ferts, all you need to do is supply everything via the water column. You don't need anything in the gravel. If that's what's available the plants will take it that way. This whole "heavy root" feeder thing is a myth and has been disproven over a over thousand and thousands of time by people growing swords, crypts etc, in sand, gravel and only dosing the water column.
> 
> Just make sure you have NPK and micros going in, and doing water changes to keep the water clean and the ferts in range.


My other issue: nitrate get thrown off a lot with water changes. I try to overfeed a bit after water changes to recover nitrate a bit but I have accidentally mini cycled doing that. Do I get more fish or supplement with chemical nitrate?

Bump: Here's a pic of my amazon. A lot of browning and very little growth despite water column and tab ferts. I should also mention I have to scrub bga off it at least twice a week.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

atyshka said:


> My other issue: nitrate get thrown off a lot with water changes. I try to overfeed a bit after water changes to recover nitrate a bit but I have accidentally mini cycled doing that. Do I get more fish or supplement with chemical nitrate?


I experienced exactly the same scenario as you. Out of whack nitrate levels, high fert dosing and low plant mass and I got a bad outbreak of cyano. What I did was increase flow, do a 75%+ water change, black out the tank for a few days to a weak, do another 75%+ water change, cut back ferts, removed as much dead plant matter and cyano as I could and reduced my photo period and it cleared up.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

atyshka said:


> I'm doing NPK. One problem I have is bad BGA. It's a bit of a circular problem: I have very little biomass but high ferts which leads to BGA. I've tried using stem plants like anacharis to use up excess nutrients but the stem plants get coated in the stuff and die. Advice?


If you talking about "high ferts" from dosing this does not cause BGA. BGA is caused by high "organics" in the water and the tanks inability to process the organic load either through the bio-filter and/or the plants. You said your dosing flourish tabs, potassium, phosphorous. Where's the nitrogen? Are you getting that from the dosing or from the tank itself?

Bump: I just saw this:



atyshka said:


> My other issue: nitrate get thrown off a lot with water changes. I try to overfeed a bit after water changes to recover nitrate a bit but I have accidentally mini cycled doing that. Do I get more fish or supplement with chemical nitrate?


Getting nitrate from fish waste is the worst thing you can do. Not that it can't work in certain tanks, but there is a HUGE difference dosing inorganic salts like kno3 and getting nitrate from fish waste. In the latter case your purposely keeping your tank 'dirty' this gives you much less wiggle room with light and stocking to avoid algae issues. The nitrate is there because things are decomposing and releasing ammonia into your water. Algae doesn't care if it doesn't show up on your test kit.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

@Nubster

You brought out some good concerns. I haven't seen a plant that needs to have a fertile substrate yet, as long as your feeding the water column. I've had swords for like 8 years, huge crypts, etc all in substrate lost most of it's nutrients or never had any. It's not to say that a plant doesn't get a boast from a fertile substrate like AS or even soil, but you can't rely on just that long-term anyway so the water column is the key.


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## atyshka (Jan 11, 2017)

Photo period has been at 6 hours, can't go much lower. I'm trying a blackout but I'm worried that it will melt my crypts.

Bump:


houseofcards said:


> If you talking about "high ferts" from dosing this does not cause BGA. BGA is caused by high "organics" in the water and the tanks inability to process the organic load either through the bio-filter and/or the plants. You said your dosing flourish tabs, potassium, phosphorous. Where's the nitrogen? Are you getting that from the dosing or from the tank itself?
> 
> Bump: I just saw this:
> 
> ...


Thank you, I have always been told by unknowledgeable employees that nitrate is nitrate and it's a waste of money to buy nitrate if the fish will just make it. I will try some nitrate and see how it goes. Also, iron? I know there is some in regular Flourish but my plants (especially Javas) seem like they are deficient in something. The javas die off faster than they get new growth and the new growth comes in slow and crinkly.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

atyshka said:


> Photo period has been at 6 hours, can't go much lower. I'm trying a blackout but I'm worried that it will melt my crypts.
> 
> Bump:
> Thank you, I have always been told by unknowledgeable employees that nitrate is nitrate and it's a waste of money to buy nitrate if the fish will just make it. I will try some nitrate and see how it goes. Also, iron? I know there is some in regular Flourish but my plants (especially Javas) seem like they are deficient in something. The javas die off faster than they get new growth and the new growth comes in slow and crinkly.


The best lighting scenario is dim light and just a few hours of intense. this way you get to see the tank and any demanding plants get the intense light they need for a few hours without a huge algae problem. More and more lights are capable of this now, but of course many aren't. 

In a way the employees are right nitrate is nitrate but the nitrate in the tank comes with excess baggage. I don't dose extra FE. I only use what is provided in either Flourish or in CSM+B (micro mix). The micro-mix is a dry fert and is much cheaper than using Seachem's line, but sometimes I run out and just buy the Flourish. I have never seen any issue with my Java Ferns and I"m running high light, faster growth.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

So I wonder if it's worth giving some plants a root tab to get them going and by the time the tab is exhausted and the plants are big, let them transition over to column feeding. Or would that end up not working well? Or even sprinkling something like Osmocote + under the substrate in a new tank and then doing the same...just letting it exhaust and then just continue column feeding from there on out adjusting as needed to meet the needs. Just thinking that it would be a good boost in a new tank with new plants...help them establish faster and stronger. I admit I'm lost when it comes to plants and ferts...but I'm reading and trying to figure it out for when I get this new tank set up after Christmas.


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## atyshka (Jan 11, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> The best lighting scenario is dim light and just a few hours of intense. this way you get to see the tank and any demanding plants get the intense light they need for a few hours without a huge algae problem. More and more lights are capable of this now, but of course many aren't.
> 
> In a way the employees are right nitrate is nitrate but the nitrate in the tank comes with excess baggage. I don't dose extra FE. I only use what is provided in either Flourish or in CSM+B (micro mix). The micro-mix is a dry fert and is much cheaper than using Seachem's line, but sometimes I run out and just buy the Flourish. I have never seen any issue with my Java Ferns and I"m running high light, faster growth.


Thanks! As a matter of fact I have two lights. My marineland is pretty bright for no CO2 and I was getting algae issues so I switched over to a cheap LED bar off Amazon. I'll try two hours of the marineland and maybe 4 to six of the dim. The tank looks more showy with the marineland too. I also might try that micro mix. That is a trace product, what do you use for macros? Also, you said you're running high light with it: with or without CO2?


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## dukydaf (Dec 27, 2004)

Nubster said:


> So I wonder if it's worth giving some plants a root tab to get them going and by the time the tab is exhausted and the plants are big, let them transition over to column feeding. Or would that end up not working well? Or even sprinkling something like Osmocote + under the substrate in a new tank and then doing the same...just letting it exhaust and then just continue column feeding from there on out adjusting as needed to meet the needs. Just thinking that it would be a good boost in a new tank with new plants...help them establish faster and stronger. I admit I'm lost when it comes to plants and ferts...but I'm reading and trying to figure it out for when I get this new tank set up after Christmas.


At the start they are more likely to benefit from column dosing as the root system is not spread, absent or damaged from planting. Root tabs would be my first recommendation to the OP. In slow light,non-CO2 tanks with sparse plants formed mainly by plants with heavy root systems... putting a root tab that says it contains N and P would be an easy way to fertilize. My personal favorite are the clay balls available for pond lilies. Osmocote and other tabs would work as well. Even bits from a fertilizer stick if you feel brave. But it has to say it contains N and P, otherwise no buy. 

Anoter DIY trick is to mix (mineralized) dirt with water, put in a cube tray and freeze. Next you take the cubes and push them deep beneath the substrate. When the plants hit that region with their roots, you will notice. 

Also have a read here : http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/1215090-why-water-column.html


atyshka said:


> I also might try that micro mix. That is a trace product, what do you use for macros? Also, you said you're running high light with it: with or without CO2?


KNO3 is a good source for NO3 and KH2PO4 for P. There are some ready made mixes like Thrive from NiloCG. It is also way cheaper and easier on the system to dose the powders than to dose fish food and wait for it to be converted to what you need.



atyshka said:


> I'm trying a blackout but I'm worried that it will melt my crypts.
> Thank you, I have always been told by unknowledgeable employees that nitrate is nitrate and it's a waste of money to buy nitrate if the fish will just make it. I will try some nitrate and see how it goes. Also, iron? I know there is some in regular Flourish but my plants (especially Javas) seem like they are deficient in something. The javas die off faster than they get new growth and the new growth comes in slow and crinkly.


Java ferns are happy when there is something in the water column for them to eat. If they strugge it means the water column is poor. Since they are needed in more quantity it makes sense to start with the macros N, P, K and if it dose not recover , then go to the micros. 

I did not have any luck with BGA and black-outs, as evidenced by a sample of BGA that was able to survive 6 months in darkness and then regrow once exposed to light. I suggest removing as much as possible manually and addressing the fertilizer issue. If ti does not stop, spot dose with hydrogen peroxide. If this does not work, erythromycin will.


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

> I'm using flourish tabs, potassium, phosphorous, and liquid CO2


The flourish tabs will only affect the plants closest to them. Nutrients tend to move slowly through the substrate. Excluding the tabs you are dosing 2 macros and zero trace (micro) elements. There are 6 macros and 7 trace nutrients a plants need. If you are short on these algae can take over and your plants may die. Now some of these may be in your tap water but often that isn't enough. 

For the trace many people use Dry CSM+b. It has all the trace nutrient except Chlorine and does contain magnesium a Macro nutrient. For macros most people just worry about NPK, however that is only 3 of the macros. The remaining macros are Calcium, Magnesium, and sulfur. A sulfate GH booster like Seachem Equilibrium will supply the calcium, sulfur and magnesium. This will supply your tank with everything except chlorine which is typicaly in tap water.

Nilocg.com sells dry and liquid fertilizers. Seachem equilibrium is available through many retailers or you can get it at amazon.com. You can use this fertilizer calculator to determine how much to add to your aquarium:
https://rotalabutterfly.com/nutrient-calculator.php

Dose your water colomb to 15ppm of nitrate, 1ppm phosphate. For gh booster increase your tap water Gh by about 2 degrees (you will need a GH test kit to determine what your GH is).


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Yep, nothing wrong with using root tabs @dukydaf pointed out if your not using any water column dosing. If your dosing NPK+Micros through the column I just think your wasting your money and they can also make a mess when uprooting. Your simply duplicating your efforts since the plant will take it either way.

The whole Iron thing IMO is way overblown for most aquarists. You get enough either through Flourish or CSM+B mix. I've never seen any deficiency and I have mostly hi-tech tanks. So again to me your duplicating your efforts unnecessary in most cases.


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## atyshka (Jan 11, 2017)

Surf said:


> The flourish tabs will only affect the plants closest to them. Nutrients tend to move slowly through the substrate. Excluding the tabs you are dosing 2 macros and zero trace (micro) elements. There are 6 macros and 7 trace nutrients a plants need. If you are short on these algae can take over and your plants may die. Now some of these may be in your tap water but often that isn't enough.
> 
> For the trace many people use Dry CSM+b. It has all the trace nutrient except Chlorine and does contain magnesium a Macro nutrient. For macros most people just worry about NPK, however that is only 3 of the macros. The remaining macros are Calcium, Magnesium, and sulfur. A sulfate GH booster like Seachem Equilibrium will supply the calcium, sulfur and magnesium. This will supply your tank with everything except chlorine which is typicaly in tap water.
> 
> ...


I apologize, I forgot to list plain ol' Flourish in my ferts. That provides a decent amount of micros (I think). Nitrate is at 10ppm (from fish waste only) and my GH is about 4.5


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## atyshka (Jan 11, 2017)

dukydaf said:


> At the start they are more likely to benefit from column dosing as the root system is not spread, absent or damaged from planting. Root tabs would be my first recommendation to the OP. In slow light,non-CO2 tanks with sparse plants formed mainly by plants with heavy root systems... putting a root tab that says it contains N and P would be an easy way to fertilize. My personal favorite are the clay balls available for pond lilies. Osmocote and other tabs would work as well. Even bits from a fertilizer stick if you feel brave. But it has to say it contains N and P, otherwise no buy.
> 
> Anoter DIY trick is to mix (mineralized) dirt with water, put in a cube tray and freeze. Next you take the cubes and push them deep beneath the substrate. When the plants hit that region with their roots, you will notice.
> 
> ...


I'm currently using flourish tabs directly below the plants, but I'm a little confused about their content. The analysis here Seachem - Flourish Tabs says it contains N, P, and K but the description says it contains no phosphate or nitrate for algae reasons. I'm also column dosing K and P several times a week and have 10ppm nitrate from fish. Neither the Javas nor the swords seem to be doing well though and that's why I'm so confused when I seem to have NPK in the column.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

atyshka said:


> Thanks! I'm currently using flourish tabs directly below the plants, but I'm a little confused about their content. The analysis here Seachem - Flourish Tabs says it contains N, P, and K but the description says it contains no phosphate or nitrate for algae reasons. I'm also column dosing K and P several times a week and have 10ppm nitrate from fish. Neither the Javas nor the swords seem to be doing well though and that's why I'm so confused when I seem to have NPK in the column.


What light are using over what sized tank? 

kH, gH, pH, temp?


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## atyshka (Jan 11, 2017)

Quagulator said:


> What light are using over what sized tank?
> 
> kH, gH, pH, temp?


I'm using an LED strip over a 36 gallon. I also have a marineland advanced but that seemed to be too bright and gave me unbearable BGA.
kH is 4.5, I don't have a gH measurement, ph is about 7.4, temp is 78 degrees F.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

atyshka said:


> kH is 4.5, I don't have a gH measurement, ph is about 7.4, temp is 78 degrees F.


Light?


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## atyshka (Jan 11, 2017)

atyshka said:


> I'm currently using flourish tabs directly below the plants, but I'm a little confused about their content. The analysis here Seachem - Flourish Tabs says it contains N, P, and K but the description says it contains no phosphate or nitrate for algae reasons. I'm also column dosing K and P several times a week and have 10ppm nitrate from fish. Neither the Javas nor the swords seem to be doing well though and that's why I'm so confused when I seem to have NPK in the column.





Quagulator said:


> Light?


Here's a picture of what my LED looks like.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Do you know the name of the light you are using? To me it does not look strong enough to support plants, maybe very low light plants.


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## atyshka (Jan 11, 2017)

Quagulator said:


> Do you know the name of the light you are using? To me it does not look strong enough to support plants, maybe very low light plants.


I am aware that it is a dim light. I have resorted to it because I can't go any higher without severe BGA and BBA issues. I don't know what's up with my water chemistry but I can't go any brighter or else I have an algae disaster. I already have bad BGA with a 6 hour photoperiod on this dim light. Here's the link to it: https://www.amazon.com/LEDENET-6500...e=UTF8&qid=1511964424&sr=8-2&keywords=ledenet
Here's the link to my brighter light which I'm not currently using: https://www.amazon.com/Marineland-M...511964468&sr=1-1&keywords=marineland+advanced


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Hmmm... I'm thinking this is more of a lighting issue, I had a bad BGA outbreak in my low light tank and I HAD to clear that up before my plants began growing nicely again. What color spectrum are you running the light at? 6 hours a day with a low output light is likely not enough to support those plants.


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## atyshka (Jan 11, 2017)

Quagulator said:


> Hmmm... I'm thinking this is more of a lighting issue, I had a bad BGA outbreak in my low light tank and I HAD to clear that up before my plants began growing nicely again. What color spectrum are you running the light at? 6 hours a day with a low output light is likely not enough to support those plants.


Spectrum is int the 6500-7500K range


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## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

Just wanted to add a little clarity to the "heavy root feeder" issue. As has been pointed out, plants that have the capacity to meet substantially all of their nutrient needs from the substrate can have those needs just as easily met in the water column. That said, it can be advantageous to provide nutrients through the substrate rather than the water column, so if you have plants that can be fed this way, it might be in your best interest. Two advantages to feeding through substrate:

1) Nutrients kept in the substrate are less accessible to algae. 

2) Time release, using either dirt or capsules, reduces how frequently you must dose.

I’ve posted about this before, but I still see a lot of the same comments on this issue. When we talk about heavy root feeders, we do not mean plants that prefer to take nutrients through their roots. Aquatic plants vary in their ability to absorb nutrients through their roots; “heavy root feeders” are plants that have the luxury of being able to absorb nutrients from their roots as well or close to as well as through their leaves and stems. Note that nutrients in this case are not just limited to macros and micros: many plants can even absorb CO2 through their roots (go dirt!).


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## atyshka (Jan 11, 2017)

Bananableps said:


> Just wanted to add a little clarity to the "heavy root feeder" issue. As has been pointed out, plants that have the capacity to meet substantially all of their nutrient needs from the substrate can have those needs just as easily met in the water column. That said, it can be advantageous to provide nutrients through the substrate rather than the water column, so if you have plants that can be fed this way, it might be in your best interest. Two advantages to feeding through substrate:
> 
> 1) Nutrients kept in the substrate are less accessible to algae.
> 
> ...


Thanks, that advice helps! Do you have any specific recommendations based on the pictures I posted as to why my plants aren't doing well with NPK, Flourish, and glutural? I feel like it's lighting at this point but any more light leads to bad algae issues for me. I might get a BGA product but I feel like that's a band aid for an underlying problem.


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## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

atyshka said:


> Thanks, that advice helps! Do you have any specific recommendations based on the pictures I posted as to why my plants aren't doing well with NPK, Flourish, and glutural? I feel like it's lighting at this point but any more light leads to bad algae issues for me. I might get a BGA product but I feel like that's a band aid for an underlying problem.


I agree with previous comments that you are probably deficient in nitrogen. The plants you are keeping are well within the range of what can be kept in an inert-substrate low tech tank fed with fish mulm, so dosing nitrogen isn't necessarily required. However, if you are having trouble balancing your bioload with the need to do water changes, then perhaps a little nitrogen supplement might be helpful. 

I can't tell super well from the pic, but it seems the abubias you are growing as an epiphyte (cannot take advantage of substrate nutrients) is doing fine, and only the plants with the capacity of getting nutrients from the substrate are in need of assistance. That suggests to me that you could solve this problem while taking advantage of the benefits of substrate nutrients mentioned in my previous post. Root tabs that provide nitrogen might be easier for you than frequent liquid dosing.

It is my personal view that dirted tanks provide more benefits than an inert low tech setup, but with roughly the same maintenance costs; therefor, if you are going to go low tech, you might as well go dirt. I understand a full conversion would be a big hassle, but it is something to consider. You would not have to worry about nutrient issues like this (for the plants you are having trouble with).

Good luck!


EDIT:


dukydaf said:


> A
> Anoter DIY trick is to mix (mineralized) dirt with water, put in a cube tray and freeze. Next you take the cubes and push them deep beneath the substrate. When the plants hit that region with their roots, you will notice.


I missed dukydaf's entire post on my first read of the thread. My bad! Just wanted to add that I support the above advice. Considering the size of your gravel, I would only add that you might want to pour some sand over the part of your tank you are dirt seeding to ensure you have a strong cap over the dirt.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

atyshka said:


> Thanks, that advice helps! Do you have any specific recommendations based on the pictures I posted as to why my plants aren't doing well with NPK, Flourish, and glutural? I feel like it's lighting at this point but any more light leads to bad algae issues for me. I might get a BGA product but I feel like that's a band aid for an underlying problem.


The most successful BGA treatment I have used without going chemical route was a large 75%+ water change during which I removed as much BGA as possible, I did a gravel vac wherever there was no plants, cleaned out filter media (in a bucket of "clean" tank water) and completely blacked out the tank for 5 days. 

When I finished the blackout I did another 75%+ water change, reduced feeding, reduced ferts and removed any dying/decaying plants. I would make sure any "mulm" from fish waste and decaying plant matter was removed, and increased flow. I kept an eye on all parameters and kept everything stable. I reduced photo period to 6-8 hours, and made sure no sunlight was getting into the problem (corners mostly) are of my tank. 

After I started seeing no signs of it returning, I added new plants and began using small amounts of substrate ferts and dry ferts, slowly watching plant response, building up ferts until I reached a happy level of growth, with minimal algae/BGA growth. 

Light alone is not why BGA outbreaks occur IME. Low flow and lack of NO3 is just as bad as too much light in terms of BGA.


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## atyshka (Jan 11, 2017)

Bananableps said:


> I agree with previous comments that you are probably deficient in nitrogen. The plants you are keeping are well within the range of what can be kept in an inert-substrate low tech tank fed with fish mulm, so dosing nitrogen isn't necessarily required. However, if you are having trouble balancing your bioload with the need to do water changes, then perhaps a little nitrogen supplement might be helpful.
> 
> I can't tell super well from the pic, but it seems the abubias you are growing as an epiphyte (cannot take advantage of substrate nutrients) is doing fine, and only the plants with the capacity of getting nutrients from the substrate are in need of assistance. That suggests to me that you could solve this problem while taking advantage of the benefits of substrate nutrients mentioned in my previous post. Root tabs that provide nitrogen might be easier for you than frequent liquid dosing.
> 
> ...


Thanks, will definitely try that! You're right that the Anubias are pretty good, but the Java ferns are just terrible. New growth is very slow (takes several weeks for baby leaves to grow to an inch) and most new growth dies off before it gets very big. Most plants only have like two leaves per rhizome. Also, the leaves are crinkly and dotted with brown spots. I'm constantly struggling with algae on them too, I have to scrub the leaves every other day. Also, I don't know if this is normal for Javas feeding from the water column but the plants have very little roots.










Bump:


Quagulator said:


> The most successful BGA treatment I have used without going chemical route was a large 75%+ water change during which I removed as much BGA as possible, I did a gravel vac wherever there was no plants, cleaned out filter media (in a bucket of "clean" tank water) and completely blacked out the tank for 5 days.
> 
> When I finished the blackout I did another 75%+ water change, reduced feeding, reduced ferts and removed any dying/decaying plants. I would make sure any "mulm" from fish waste and decaying plant matter was removed, and increased flow. I kept an eye on all parameters and kept everything stable. I reduced photo period to 6-8 hours, and made sure no sunlight was getting into the problem (corners mostly) are of my tank.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice! Flow seems like a but of a problem for me. I have a full bubble wall against the back of my tank and a 60 GPH filter providing flow. However, I still get A TON of fish waste on the bottom of my tank. Is this normal? If not I probably have a flow problem which would explain some of the BGA. I just thought that between the bubble wall and filter I'd have enough flow.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I started out same as you, I had basic aquarium gravel and plastic plants, decided one day I wanted live plants. I started EI dosing and to help my plants I added safe-t-sorb to my tanks. It has very high cation capacity. It does affect the ph at first but I soaked mine with baking soda to alleviate that effect. At first I just bought one bag, sifted out the dust and smaller particles, and sprinkled it into my tank (trumpet snails helped mix it with the gravel). My plants started to improve with this step.

When I started my second tank, I used mainly safe-t-sorb for the substrate, with some leftover gravel on top to hold it down (it is very light and easily disturbed at first).

Just an idea.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

For me BGA is about organics and your tanks ability to process. To process it you need a good bio-filter and healthy plant mass. You have pretty much no plant mass, large fish that are maintaining I think you said 10-20 Nitrate. That is considered a "dirty tank". I don't necessarily mean dirty to your eye, but dirty where algae/BGA will form.

It's also inaccurate to think BGA will only develop with too much light, I don't think your light is strong enough to "really" grow plants. It's a 36? That's a deep tank. 

If it was my tank I would dose everything in the water column, make sure you do 50% water changes weekly (religiously) and use the 1st light you were using on a short cycle and see if things improve. Also get some more easy to grow fast growers like Wisteria that will help process the organics. Also if your tank is a 36G and you running a 60GPH filter with larger Angels that's not really a good way to go as well, but you could make up for it with the water changes.


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## atyshka (Jan 11, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> For me BGA is about organics and your tanks ability to process. To process it you need a good bio-filter and healthy plant mass. You have pretty much no plant mass, large fish that are maintaining I think you said 10-20 Nitrate. That is considered a "dirty tank". I don't necessarily mean dirty to your eye, but dirty where algae/BGA will form.
> 
> It's also inaccurate to think BGA will only develop with too much light, I don't think your light is strong enough to "really" grow plants. It's a 36? That's a deep tank.
> 
> If it was my tank I would dose everything in the water column, make sure you do 50% water changes weekly (religiously) and use the 1st light you were using on a short cycle and see if things improve. Also get some more easy to grow fast growers like Wisteria that will help process the organics. Also if your tank is a 36G and you running a 60GPH filter with larger Angels that's not really a good way to go as well, but you could make up for it with the water changes.


Okay, I've been looking to increase my plant mass but my LFS doesn't have many options in terms of low light. I might order hornwort or wisteria off Amazon, but I've heard that most stem plants want CO2. What low light, fast growing plants do you recommend?


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## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

I think houseofcards raises a good point. Your biggest problem is probably lack of plant mass. One rarely sees a jungle tank with algae problems. A thickly planted tank can suck up all the CO2 (as well as a good portion of nutrients) available in the water column during the peak of your photoperiod. Plants can store energy better than algae can, so these daily input fasts will routinely give plants an upper hand. This is how stagnant ponds and vernal pools in nature can manage to stay so clear, even in the peak of summer, if they have enough vascular plant activity.




atyshka said:


> Okay, I've been looking to increase my plant mass but my LFS doesn't have many options in terms of low light. I might order hornwort or wisteria off Amazon, but I've heard that most stem plants want CO2. What low light, fast growing plants do you recommend?


Both of those plants will do great without CO2. There is a sticky in the low tech subforum with a list of other low light plants. If you can't buy plants locally, you might consider checking out the trade section of this forum. Package deals on low tech plants are available here and on aquabid.


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## Niccoj (Oct 17, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> @Nubster
> 
> 
> 
> You brought out some good concerns. I haven't seen a plant that needs to have a fertile substrate yet, as long as your feeding the water column. I've had swords for like 8 years, huge crypts, etc all in substrate lost most of it's nutrients or never had any. It's not to say that a plant doesn't get a boast from a fertile substrate like AS or even soil, but you can't rely on just that long-term anyway so the water column is the key.




I dose flourish excel and flourish every week. My java ferns are growing well. The anubias has some holes but new leaf growth. But my amazon sword is really sad a yellow, twisted, almost transparent. I noticed I should be dosing every other day. If I start that, when can I expect to see improvements in the amazon sword?










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