# Can I keep cardinal shrimp in my water?



## Destroyer551 (Dec 1, 2009)

Straight from the tap -

TDS - 126
Ph - 7.8-8.0
Kh - 1-2
GH - My new kit is defective :/

Living in Florida, the well water has always been hard. I've tried cardinia with a low amount of success. Neos as always, have been easy, but lately they've been incredibly boring. The original copper pipes in my house were replaced with pvc and I no longer have a problem with 550 tds and an undetectably high ph lvl. Cardinal shrimp have recently caught my eye. I'm thinking of dedicating a 10 gallon to them. It's been up a week with 53 watts of light, sand/gravel sub, Eheim 2211 with 2213 prop (more flow), and some anacharis. As far as I know, having the tank cycle for awhile and a good amount of rocks/crushed coral would complete the tank for cardinals. If anyone who has/is keeping them can say their tank/water specs, I'd appreciate it.


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## ThatGuyWithTheFish (Apr 29, 2012)

I suppose if you can raise the hardness a lot and keep it hot.


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## ProduceGuy (Mar 8, 2013)

I currently breed them. It's very important to keep the water temp pretty warm. I keep my at 80, but 78 to 82 is good. My water is as follows:

Temp: 80 degrees
pH: 7.8
TDS: 200
GH: 8 / 160 ppm
KH: 7 / 70 ppm

I'm very fortunate, as they are very healthy and have never stopped breeding.


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## Destroyer551 (Dec 1, 2009)

ProduceGuy said:


> I currently breed them. It's very important to keep the water temp pretty warm. I keep my at 80, but 78 to 82 is good. My water is as follows:
> 
> Temp: 80 degrees
> pH: 7.8
> ...


Awesome, thanks. Any ideas on how I can raise KH?

Temperature shouldn't be a problem. Just haven't put the heater in yet. That was my main problem with CRS/OEBT, the tank temps would hit 82 in the middle of summer, without a heater!


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## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

Destroyer551 said:


> Any ideas on how I can raise KH?


People are using Salty Shrimp Sulawesi Mineral.


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## oblongshrimp (Jul 26, 2006)

If you just want to raise KH you can use baking soda. Salty Shrimp Sulawesi Mineral is great if you are starting with RO water since it adds everything you need.


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## Destroyer551 (Dec 1, 2009)

oblongshrimp said:


> If you just want to raise KH you can use baking soda. Salty Shrimp Sulawesi Mineral is great if you are starting with RO water since it adds everything you need.


Right, thanks. 

One more question, is it safe to assume that since my KH is low out of the tap, that GH will also be low or somewhere around that ballpark?


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

Destroyer551 said:


> Straight from the tap -
> 
> TDS - 126
> Ph - 7.8-8.0
> ...


Sorry to rain on your parade, but at least 9 out of 10 people fail when trying to use tap water for these shrimp. Save your time and money and don't make the same mistake that I made when I first tried keeping them.

Your best bet is to use RO water or distilled water from the Grocery store with Salty Shrimp Sulawesi Mineral 7.5 or 8.5. I use 8.5 and my params are pH 8.5, GH 7-8, temp 82, and TDS 150-180. Mine are breeding like crazy in those params.

Good luck!


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## Destroyer551 (Dec 1, 2009)

Lexinverts said:


> Sorry to rain on your parade, but at least 9 out of 10 people fail when trying to use tap water for these shrimp. Save your time and money and don't make the same mistake that I made when I first tried keeping them.
> 
> Your best bet is to use RO water or distilled water from the Grocery store with Salty Shrimp Sulawesi Mineral 7.5 or 8.5. I use 8.5 and my params are pH 8.5, GH 7-8, temp 82, and TDS 150-180. Mine are breeding like crazy in those params.
> 
> Good luck!


Thanks a lot! I suppose it takes a lot of the guessing out of things, even though the stuff isn't cheap. 

What are your reasons for choosing 8.5 rather than 7.5?

Also, how exactly do you mix the stuff?


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## oblongshrimp (Jul 26, 2006)

The 7.5 is much easier to mix the the 8.5 which is harder to get to dissolve properly. The 8.5 was designed for the harder to breed Sulawesi shrimp and the cardinals do well in both the 7.5 and 8.5.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

I use the 7.5, works great, but my pH is over 8 even though it's called 7.5, haha. 

Most critical part is keeping them over 80 degrees.


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## Destroyer551 (Dec 1, 2009)

mordalphus said:


> I use the 7.5, works great, but my pH is over 8 even though it's called 7.5, haha.
> 
> Most critical part is keeping them over 80 degrees.


Sounds good, heat is easy to provide!

What is your kh and gh? I suppose you would have to pay little attention to these while using salty shrimp, correct?

How often do you/should I perform water changes?


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

I've never done a water change in over a year for my cardinals. And there's hundreds in there. 

My gh is around 8, I don't know my kh. 

I do have to top off quite frequently because of the high temps, even though I have a cover on the tank. 

Here's a video


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## Destroyer551 (Dec 1, 2009)

Over a year?!?! That contradicts everything I've read so far, lol. Do you know your TDS? You top off with RO water correct?

I'll certainly be interested in some of your shrimp once my tank is cycled.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Yah, over a year, haha, and it's only because it's the top tank on this rack, and my water change tube doesn't reach it, and I'm really not keen on manually removing the water.

But it seems to work fine for the shrimp, I've never had a problem breeding them! 

Last i checked the tds it was around 450.

I use tap water for top offs, but my tap is basically RO (tds around 10 this time of year) 

I have another 20 gallon tank I'm thinking about converting over to sulawesi so I can double my breeding, but I have like 15 pounds of akadama to pull out of it, and I haven't felt like getting muddy.


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

oblongshrimp said:


> The 7.5 is much easier to mix the the 8.5 which is harder to get to dissolve properly. The 8.5 was designed for the harder to breed Sulawesi shrimp and the cardinals do well in both the 7.5 and 8.5.


I haven't found the 7.5 to be that much easier to dissolve. I always have undissolved mix left in the bucket.

I use 8.5 because I want to be ready for other species if they become available.

In order to get 8.5 to dissolve for me, I use 3 scoops per 5 gallon bucket of ro water. I heat each scoop of mix in a small amount of ro water in the microwave to a boil, and then add to my 5 gallon bucket of ro water. I age and aerate the water for 2 days and heat it to tank temperature. This brings my params where they need to be.


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## Destroyer551 (Dec 1, 2009)

Sounds simple enough.

What do you do with the undissolved pieces, btw?


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

Destroyer551 said:


> Sounds simple enough.
> 
> What do you do with the undissolved pieces, btw?


They stay in the 5 gallon bucket. I always use the same one for my Sulawesi water.


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## Destroyer551 (Dec 1, 2009)

Quick Q - 

Should I buy some Salty Shrimp now, and treat my tank water with it as soon as possible, to allow the tank to cycle with Sulawesi parameters? Or will it not matter? I'm still 5-6 weeks away from cardinals.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Doesn't matter, I think the pH being 8 is all that matters make it warm though so e bacteria will be used to the pH and heat.


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## Destroyer551 (Dec 1, 2009)

Ok, I got my kh and gh kit today and did a retest on water straight from the tap:

Ph- 8.3
TDS-141
Ammonia-0
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-0
Gh-8
kh-6

As far as I know, these are all good parameters for cardinal shrimp, correct? I suppose I'd rather save the 30$ for 3 more cardinal shrimp instead of buying Salty Shrimp.

Opinions? Stick with tap, or rather than risk it, go with Salty Shrimp?


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## DarkWater Aquatics (Apr 10, 2013)

Thank you for this thread! I've been wanting to try cardinals myself but have always been wary of the params.


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## Destroyer551 (Dec 1, 2009)

DarkWater Aquatics said:


> Thank you for this thread! I've been wanting to try cardinals myself but have always been wary of the params.


Not a problem, It's good info for newcomers to cardinals/sulawesi shrimp. Even though they've been around for 5 or so years, there's seems to be only a handfull of people who are vocal about how they keep them.

I see you are from Orlando as well.


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## DarkWater Aquatics (Apr 10, 2013)

Yep, smack dab in the middle of O Town. If you are available this Saturday, I'm having a get-together for the local aquarium geeks. I'd love to meet you and talk shrimp


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

Destroyer551 said:


> Ok, I got my kh and gh kit today and did a retest on water straight from the tap:
> 
> Ph- 8.3
> TDS-141
> ...


Those parameters do seem just about perfect for Cardinals.
Even so, you are still more likely to have success using the Salty Shrimp product with RO water. There are sometimes trace contaminants in municipal water supplies that sensitive shrimp like Cardinals don't like. If I were you, I would set up a tank with Salty Shrimp and then wait until I had success under those conditions to try some in my tap water. This is the safest way to proceed. If you don't mind risking your initial investment in Cardinals, then go for it with your tapwater.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Yeah that tap water is pretty good. I suggest getting some from a breeder instead of from a store or importer though. Imported cardinals are very poor health and not hardy at all. I have had enough issues shipping captive bred cardinals, when I've ordered wild ones, they almost always come in 100% dead. 

Mine aren't quite as hardy as cherries, but they're getting close, haha, I put them through some pretty awful things, but as long as the temperature doesn't dip too low they've survived


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

mordalphus said:


> Mine aren't quite as hardy as cherries, but they're getting close, haha, I put them through some pretty awful things, but as long as the temperature doesn't dip too low they've survived


You haven't tried them in that nasty Seattle tapwater, have you?:red_mouth


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## Destroyer551 (Dec 1, 2009)

Thanks for the input guys! Still 50/50 on tap vs salty shrimp, but I guess I'll see where things go in the next couple weeks. I'm pretty low on funds, but maybe that gives me a pretty good reason on why NOT to risk 100$ worth of sensitive shrimp with tap water. Lex brought up a good point about tapwater though, even with somewhat low TDS there's no telling what's really in there. 

Mord - Yeah, I certainly don't plan on importing any, I've read a bunch of horror stories already about imported sulawesi shrimp. I suppose I have a few options as far as CB cardinals. (Mord, Lex, and a seller or two from aquabid)


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Lexinverts said:


> You haven't tried them in that nasty Seattle tapwater, have you?:red_mouth


I couldnt do that, my tap water is 0 gh 0 kh, 6.5 pH, tds 25,

But I have let their aquarium evaporate down to half full and then topped off in a matter of hours. Yikes! No deaths though. 

Their aquarium is farthest away from my water source, and hottest, so it evap fast. I SHOULD top off every day, but it ends up being every week or sometimes every other week.


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## Destroyer551 (Dec 1, 2009)

mordalphus said:


> I couldnt do that, my tap water is 0 gh 0 kh, 6.5 pH, tds 25,
> 
> But I have let their aquarium evaporate down to half full and then topped off in a matter of hours. Yikes! No deaths though.
> 
> Their aquarium is farthest away from my water source, and hottest, so it evap fast. I SHOULD top off every day, but it ends up being every week or sometimes every other week.


You seriously seem to be the only person who can raise these guys in relatively poor conditions, lol. You might as well be raising up a new strain of super hardy cardinals. 

Do you mind testing your water for the latest params?

If anything, I'm more worried about getting shrimp from you and having them die off because I'm keeping them TOO well, haha!


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

Destroyer551 said:


> You seriously seem to be the only person who can raise these guys in relatively poor conditions, lol. You might as well be raising up a new strain of super hardy cardinals.
> 
> Do you mind testing your water for the latest params?
> 
> If anything, I'm more worried about getting shrimp from you and having them die off because I'm keeping them TOO well, haha!


There's a guy on Aquabid that keeps his in GH 13 water. He's probably at about F20, so maybe it gets easier the longer they have been captive bred.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Yah, and mine have been captive bred since 2010, who knows what generation by now. 

I'll test tonight before I top off and again after I top off, will be interesting


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Ok, I just tested the water before I topped off.

TDS - 458
KH - 7
GH - 19-20
Nitrates - 40 ppm

And here's a photo of the aquarium to see how much has evaporated since I last topped off a week ago.


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## Destroyer551 (Dec 1, 2009)

Uh, wow? I wouldn't even keep cherries in a GH that high, lol.

Any recent Ph readings?

Thanks for taking the time to test, btw.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

The test I have says pH is 8.2


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

After the topoff (just finished), the TDS is 380. I'm not going to test the GH and KH again, but they're probably about 20% less as well.

So they swing regularly between GH 15 to say GH 25 on occasion (when I can't get to them for more than a week).

Doesn't seem to affect them, except for the fact that their molts are SOLID when the water gets low. I've only seen one bad molt before, and it was after I got back from a 3 week trip to Japan. The water level was down to the top of the bottom two tubes on that breeding tubes. eek!


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

mordalphus said:


> After the topoff (just finished), the TDS is 380. I'm not going to test the GH and KH again, but they're probably about 20% less as well.
> 
> So they swing regularly between GH 15 to say GH 25 on occasion (when I can't get to them for more than a week).
> 
> Doesn't seem to affect them, except for the fact that their molts are SOLID when the water gets low. I've only seen one bad molt before, and it was after I got back from a 3 week trip to Japan. The water level was down to the top of the bottom two tubes on that breeding tubes. eek!


You drip acclimate when you do top-offs, right? You don't just dump the new water right in the tank....In my experience, if you don't add the new water slowly, you'll get some deaths.

Those parameters are really interesting to see. I'm guessing from your experience that having a mid-range GH is not that important as long as they are getting some essential mineral(s) from the Salty Shrimp mix. 
I doubt they would survive in those parameters if they were in someone's strait tap water.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

I drip the new water in. It took 3 hours to drip in 5 gallons. 

I'm not convinced the salty shrimp has anything to do with it, the breeder I got mine from originally just used aragonite and nothing else to adjust params. 

Think about the lakes and how they were formed. They were originally salt water reefs, a volcano appeared, changed the geography just enough to slowly change the reef from saltwater to brackish to fresh over many many years. So animals in the lakes are very close to their saltwater counterparts. The sponges there still feed like saltwater sponges, there are macro algae like charra, full on gobies, etc. It's a really interesting area to me. 

Jared Green at atyidae.com is a good source for what's what about the lakes they come from. I just think once they're this far from wild (as far as lineage is concerned) they just don't need what they used to anymore.


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

mordalphus said:


> I drip the new water in. It took 3 hours to drip in 5 gallons.
> 
> I'm not convinced the salty shrimp has anything to do with it, the breeder I got mine from originally just used aragonite and nothing else to adjust params.
> 
> ...


I've bred them in RO over aragonite too, but I never had the success that I am having with the Salty Shrimp mix.

I'll check out Jared's site. Thanks.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Lex, I think you just need more confidence!


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## Clemsons2k (May 31, 2009)

mordalphus said:


> Ok, I just tested the water before I topped off.
> 
> TDS - 458
> KH - 7
> ...


Mother of god thats some soupy water :icon_eek:

:flick:


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Clemsons2k said:


> Mother of god thats some soupy water :icon_eek:
> 
> :flick:


Haha, yeah, well it's not that bad. 

Only 40ppm nitrates and I feed powdered food all the time.


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## Destroyer551 (Dec 1, 2009)

mordalphus said:


> Haha, yeah, well it's not that bad.
> 
> Only 40ppm nitrates and I feed powdered food all the time.


 
Have you noticed yours eating commercial food or is the powdered stuff mostly for bacterial growth?


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

I'm still trying to train mine to eat wafer food. The powders I feed are a spirulina/chlorella mix, and ebiken Ei. 

There is a way to use neocaridina to train them faster. Simply put some Cherry Shrimp in with them and they'll see the Cherries eating the food and will eventually join in.


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## Clemsons2k (May 31, 2009)

They just eat biofilm and other natural goodies then?


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

They eat the powdered food


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

mordalphus said:


> Think about the lakes and how they were formed. They were originally salt water reefs, a volcano appeared, changed the geography just enough to slowly change the reef from saltwater to brackish to fresh over many many years. So animals in the lakes are very close to their saltwater counterparts. The sponges there still feed like saltwater sponges, there are macro algae like charra, full on gobies, etc. It's a really interesting area to me.


My understanding is that they are really ancient lakes. The shrimp, snails, and sponges in the lakes represent much more recent colonizations (in evolutionary/geological time) of the lakes from the ocean. They are fascinating ecosystems!


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Yeah, too bad a lot of what we like about the lakes is disappearing fast! Nickel mines and introduction of sport fish *facepalm* have not been good for the ecosystem


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

mordalphus said:


> Yeah, too bad a lot of what we like about the lakes is disappearing fast! Nickel mines and introduction of sport fish *facepalm* have not been good for the ecosystem


Introduced Tilapia may be the thing that makes Cardinals disappear in the wild.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Well the Snakeheads and wolf fish need something to eat, those little shrimps just aren't big enough! Hah


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

Here's a couple shots of what one of my Cardinal tanks looks like. I have inert sand substrate with lots of rocks on the bottom. Cardinals are territorial and like to have their own little nook between some rocks. They seem to do better for me when there are lots of little shelters like this. The babies also love to graze on Indian Almond leaves.


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## Destroyer551 (Dec 1, 2009)

Thanks for the pictures, I was beginning to doubt you had any cardinals.  Any FTS shots?

So far I have a bunch of lava rock in mine. I'm "growing" a bunch of pea gravel outside in the sun so hopefully when I add that, my tank will be even more cardinal friendly. Haven't had the tank setup for long but I'm already getting an enormous amount of biofilm and algae growth, maybe I can get some shrimp in there sooner than I thought?

Approximately how many do you have?

EDIT: Oh, and how are these guys with water flow? Do they like things still?


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

Destroyer551 said:


> Thanks for the pictures, I was beginning to doubt you had any cardinals.  Any FTS shots?
> 
> So far I have a bunch of lava rock in mine. I'm "growing" a bunch of pea gravel outside in the sun so hopefully when I add that, my tank will be even more cardinal friendly. Haven't had the tank setup for long but I'm already getting an enormous amount of biofilm and algae growth, maybe I can get some shrimp in there sooner than I thought?
> 
> ...


What are FTS photos?

I have an Aquaclear hang on back filter on both of my Cardinal tanks and a sponge filter, so there is a fair amount of water flow, but not tons.

There are probably about 50-75 shrimp in that tank. Lots of babies, so it is hard to tell for sure.


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## Destroyer551 (Dec 1, 2009)

FTS - Full Tank Shot


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

Destroyer551 said:


> Haven't had the tank setup for long but I'm already getting an enormous amount of biofilm and algae growth, maybe I can get some shrimp in there sooner than I thought?


Maybe, buy you do want to have a well-established cycle. I use Tetra SafeStart with some Red Cherry Shrimp for a week or two in order to make sure everything is good to go.


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## Destroyer551 (Dec 1, 2009)

Lexinverts said:


> Maybe, buy you do want to have a well-established cycle. I use Tetra SafeStart with some Red Cherry Shrimp for a week or two in order to make sure everything is good to go.


 
Yeah, still working on the cycle. 0 ammonia but 5ppm+ nitrite right now.

Is Tetra SafeStart sold at places like petsmart/petco?


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

Destroyer551 said:


> FTS - Full Tank Shot


Here you go:



I have a couple of incandescent fixtures on the tank with 6700K "daylight" compact fluorescent bulbs. I have lots of light in order to grow lots of algae for the baby shrimp to eat.


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

Destroyer551 said:


> Yeah, still working on the cycle. 0 ammonia but 5ppm+ nitrite right now.
> 
> Is Tetra SafeStart sold at places like petsmart/petco?


Petsmart always carries Tetra SafeStart. Petco is not as reliable for it.


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## Destroyer551 (Dec 1, 2009)

Awesome, thanks. I'll look into getting some safestart in the next few days.


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## assasin6547 (Feb 6, 2013)

Those are some nice cardinals.

Would it be good to keep them with a coral based substrate to keep ph, GH, and KH high? Now I really want to get some.


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

assasin6547 said:


> Those are some nice cardinals.
> 
> Would it be good to keep them with a coral based substrate to keep ph, GH, and KH high? Now I really want to get some.


No, you should use inert substrate.Sand works well. Salty Shrimp 8.5 or 7.5 plus RO water is all you need to keep your parameters constant. You also want a lid on the tank to minimize evaporation.


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## Destroyer551 (Dec 1, 2009)

Tank specs as of earlier today -

Ph- 8.0
TDS- 220 (170 after a 25% WC)
ammonia- .25
Nitrites- unreadable (*dark* purple!)
Nitrates- 80ppm
Gh- 6
Kh- 1

Low gh and kh were probably from WCs with RO water, so I'll probably stick to tap to build that back up again. I noticed calcium deficiency on my anacharis too. I added 2 ghost shrimp the other day, and they seem perfectly healthy, despite the nitrite. Also got some Tetra SafeSmart and dosed that; hopefully it'll deal with the uber high nitrites.

Also, I'm probably just gonna stick to tap. I noticed most people with the massive cardinal populations seem to do very little for them, and also use nothing but tap. I kept S-SS CRS/CBS in tapwater a couple years ago and they did just fine and had eggs. (Although no babies survived, but that's probably because of the high ph)


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## Destroyer551 (Dec 1, 2009)

Geez, Tetra SS works. One 50ml bottle and 0 ammonia and nitrites 24 hours!


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Yeah. That stuff works really well.


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## Destroyer551 (Dec 1, 2009)

Another question Lex, do you feed your cardinals anything?


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

Destroyer551 said:


> Another question Lex, do you feed your cardinals anything?


Absolutely. I grind up Hikari Shrimp Cuisine, Hikari Crab Cuisine, and Ken's Veggie Sticks with Calcium with a mortar and pestle and mix it with Shirakura Chi-Ebi or Borneo Wild Bebi (microorganism powder foods). I feed with this powder at least once per day. They eat algae in the tank as well. Sometimes I mix some Spirulina powder into the powder, but the veggie stick already have this in them.


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## Destroyer551 (Dec 1, 2009)

Lexinverts said:


> Absolutely. I grind up Hikari Shrimp Cuisine, Hikari Crab Cuisine, and Ken's Veggie Sticks with Calcium with a mortar and pestle and mix it with Shirakura Chi-Ebi or Borneo Wild Bebi (microorganism powder foods). I feed with this powder at least once per day. They eat algae in the tank as well. Sometimes I mix some Spirulina powder into the powder, but the veggie stick already have this in them.


Ok cool.

Approximately how much do you feed?


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