# 180 Gallons Grandpa Low Tech Tank



## leemacnyc (Dec 28, 2005)

Welcome aboard!


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Good call in ditching the canister for a sump.

I personally recommend just capping dirt with something cheap like black diamond blasting sand. I used to have dirt capped with eco complete and can say that BDBS is way better. Stuff is like $8 per 50lb bag. Just make sure you rinse the crap out of it.

What are you planning for fish? In a large tank like that a school of like 100 fish of the same species would be cool


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## wlevine09 (Apr 7, 2014)

I would say to make the substrate deeper. One inch of nutrient rich substrate is not very much if you were to have long rooted low light plants such as crypts etc. even if you reverse it to 1 inch sand 2 inches soil or 2 inches of each I think you might be better off.


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## Mariostg (Sep 6, 2014)

A 180 gal dirted, awesome. Welcome aboard.

Personally, I like to cap my dirt with play sand. But that's just me, myself and I.


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## whonc (Oct 2, 2015)

klibs said:


> Good call in ditching the canister for a sump.
> 
> I hope the sump don't leak to much CO2. I will try to lessen the surface agitation
> 
> ...


 I hope the sump don't leak too much CO2. I will reduce the surface agitation by making a full syphon with bean animal system. Do you have a sump? Can I start a low tech tank with this kind of filtration? 



I still evaluating my fish option:
1.- Angel fish, tetras neon, axelrod rasboras, cory cats
2.- Royal blue discus, axelrod rasboras, pearl gouramis
3. Schools of danios, tetras, rasboras…



wlevine09 said:


> I would say to make the substrate deeper. One inch of nutrient rich substrate is not very much if you were to have long rooted low light plants such as crypts etc. even if you reverse it to 1 inch sand 2 inches soil or 2 inches of each I think you might be better off.


 I can do 2 inches of soil and 2 inches of sand, how deep my substrate can be? Can you do hills with this kind of substrate?


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## cosmic_shaman (Oct 2, 2015)

Welcome! I just joined this month, and my tank "hobby" has turned into quite a big obsession! The people are nice and their tanks are mighty impressive.

I don't really have much advice for you, as I'm still learning and don't want to say something that may turn out to be wrong, but wanted to welcome you aboard and to say that I'll be watching this thread closely for updates and information!


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## wlevine09 (Apr 7, 2014)

Hills will be difficult as the substrate tends to flatten itself out unless it has support structure in it. Id shoot for 3-4 inches of substrate or so so your roots have plenty of space. most people slope low in front to high in back to add depth


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## randym (Sep 20, 2015)

whonc said:


> I still evaluating my fish option:
> 1.- Angel fish, tetras neon, axelrod rasboras, cory cats


Strongly recommend against this option. The angelfish will get large enough to eat the neons and rasboras, and they will. 

They might live together for months or years if the angelfish are very young when introduced to the tank, but eventually you'll find your neons and rasboras mysteriously disappearing.

Discus are stunning, but they are not low-maintenance fish.

Large schools of tetras, etc. would be amazing, but it would cost a lot for that many fish. Unless you breed them yourself. ;-)


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

whonc said:


> I hope the sump don't leak too much CO2. I will reduce the surface agitation by making a full syphon with bean animal system. Do you have a sump? Can I start a low tech tank with this kind of filtration?
> 
> I can do 2 inches of soil and 2 inches of sand, how deep my substrate can be? Can you do hills with this kind of substrate?


The sump should be fine if you put a lid on it, i believe that's what Tom Barr did with his set ups

For the hills, you can use corrugated plastic sheets as support. for really tall slopes/hills you can add lava rock too. Dirt -> Lava Rock stack-> cap it all with sand.


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## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

I agree with the others, you should do a minimum of 2" dirt (3 or 4" is better, plus it brings the substrate level closer to the light) and cap it with some cheap sand (1-1.5" at least) so the water doesn't get so cloudy when you (or the fish) plant/mess with the substrate.

And for the fish, Angelfish do get large enough to eat neon tetras and similar sized fish (I hear Cardinal and Rummy nose tetras, which get a little bigger than neons, are safe). Discus I don't hear them snack on little fish as much, but they do require at least 82*F water, so that limits your selection of plants that can survive in those temps.

As for hills/slopes, ask for others advice as I haven't done any of those yet. But I've seen people use plastic egg crate/light diffusers.


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## walklong (Aug 31, 2013)

Couple schools of six to eight corys are fun to watch and will spawn and give you more fish. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

I'd go with making a row of rock where you want the slope to be. Rocks can have plants growing between them or could have moss/Anubias/ferns growing on them, they wouldn't be wasted space! And by row I meant more or less continuous barrier, not a straight row! I'd be sure to completely block possible movement of the soil with plastic strips a bit higher than the level of the soil. You don't much mind sand traveling down hill but soil traveling down might be a problem. If you want a good slope then fill the back of the tank with socks of gravel or lava rock, place the barrier row of more decorative rocks, put down a soil barrier then put on the dirt and the cap.

I haven't actually dirted a tank but less is more. The dirt is a more permanent fertilizer is all, not an actual substrate meant to hold plants safely. An inch of dirt is suggested in that really long thread about mineralizing soil.

Angelfish are fine with deep bodied tetras like diamond, bleeding heart, phantom, pristella, lemon but avoid the torpedo shaped ones like neons and cardinals. Agree about the corydoras, lots of fun to watch and they do breed in the tank. If there is enough cover you may have some babies surviving. Also consider the 'clean up crew'. Since they are busy they can be the most interesting tank occupants. Even large shrimp could have trouble surviving angelfish but platies/swordtails and bristlenose plecos are fine.

As for equipment, sumps are great as you already know and if you can do a beananimal I am envious, I only have a Herbie. It is the drop in the overflow and the bubbling from the drain that degas CO2 the most. With the BA the bubbling is not an issue and easy enough to keep the tank/overflow levels close enough that there isn't much of a drop. The tank shouldn't lose any more CO2 than any other tank with a similar surface area. I only have a 200 watt heater in the tank and so far so good, have another in reserve in case. The lighting will be pretty low light.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Completely open to correction here, but in a non injected tank exchange is not an issue 
it happens when the CO2(or Oxygen) is higher than normal. Since the plants will make it lower than normal as they use it the actual exchange will go the other way as in back into the water from the atmosphere. Albeit slower that that rate which the plants will use it.
Were this not the case a tank would not replenish it's CO2 supply overnight while the plants aren't using any. Also a no light period in the middle of the day gives this opportunity for gathering more CO2 as the plants aren't using it during the lights off period.


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## whonc (Oct 2, 2015)

randym said:


> Strongly recommend against this option.  The angelfish will get large enough to eat the neons and rasboras, and they will.
> 
> They might live together for months or years if the angelfish are very young when introduced to the tank, but eventually you'll find your neons and rasboras mysteriously disappearing.
> 
> ...


Thats why discus are my second option. I know angels can be aggresive but its a good option because of the height of the tank.>


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## whonc (Oct 2, 2015)

Kathyy said:


> I'd go with making a row of rock where you want the slope to be. Rocks can have plants growing between them or could have moss/Anubias/ferns growing on them, they wouldn't be wasted space! And by row I meant more or less continuous barrier, not a straight row! I'd be sure to completely block possible movement of the soil with plastic strips a bit higher than the level of the soil. You don't much mind sand traveling down hill but soil traveling down might be a problem. If you want a good slope then fill the back of the tank with socks of gravel or lava rock, place the barrier row of more decorative rocks, put down a soil barrier then put on the dirt and the cap.
> 
> I haven't actually dirted a tank but less is more. The dirt is a more permanent fertilizer is all, not an actual substrate meant to hold plants safely. An inch of dirt is suggested in that really long thread about mineralizing soil.
> 
> ...


I'm thinking doing hills with lava rock, maybe a big hill in the side of the tank of 15 inch. When I start the hardscape I will send some pictures.

I hope to build a good beananimal systems, is the first time! Well is the first time for most of the things we are going to do.

I'm worry about the light, I read the thread about this finnex light and the par readings shows a low to medium range. Do you think I need more? Some people use generic 6000k led flood lights with good results and are cheaper. Also the original finnex lights are cheaper and I can buy almost two for the price of one finnex planted 7/24. I like the automatic day cycle of the planted 7/24 though.


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## whonc (Oct 2, 2015)

Finally some pictures of the tank. As you can see "WE" have a lot of work to do! lol. Remember that this is a 25 year old tank.


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## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

hmm, i am kind of obsessed with the fish aspect, so i may be able to help.
Angels would be cool and you could do a decent number of them.
A few large schools of tetras would look awesome IMO
Some discus would be awesome if you have the money
Roseline sharks would be EPIC in that tank, you could put a dozen in there and they school really well
African Cichlids?
Just a warning, you will start low tech and quickly want to escalate to high tech, i joined this forum not knowing anything, i learned some, then i decided i wanted a carpet, you need co2 for a carpet, so i decided to go all in and start a high tech planted tank, i just planted it yesterday, but it looks awesome IMO


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## whonc (Oct 2, 2015)

I start a test on a topsoil and I think is pretty good. Is only black soil with no fertilizers added and when I wash it almost 80% of the soil went down in less than two hours. I read a thread in dirt substrate saying that if this happens is a good soil. But I don't have experience in this, any recommendation would be appreciated. 

I don't know why the pictures are rotated.


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## caique (Mar 16, 2012)

I agree, Angels tend to eat little neons.


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## tuffgong (Apr 13, 2010)

Don't wash/rinse your soil. You will end up losing most of it and left with a bunch of wet gunk.


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## whonc (Oct 2, 2015)

tuffgong said:


> Don't wash/rinse your soil. You will end up losing most of it and left with a bunch of wet gunk.


I read a lot of threads about this and they suggest to do it for cleaning the soil of possible fertilizers and debrits. Also they suggest it to reduce the amount of nutrients going to the water in the first month that can cause algae issues. What is your experience using the soil out of the bag? It will be great if you can share your experience.


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## tuffgong (Apr 13, 2010)

I've setup at least 9 dirt tanks since I first decided to go dirt. The biggest being a 150 gal. Each time I picked all of the big chunks/chips of wood and rock out after pouring each bag into the tank. So I would pour the bag into the tank, clean out all of the unwanted stuff, then pour the next bag and do it again. I've never had a problem with any of the tanks and I like my soil layers to be at least 3-4" deep. I also keep MTS in my dirt tanks to aerate the soil.

I think the rinsing you are referring to maybe for the process of making mineralized top soil.


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## TheAnswerIs42 (Jul 10, 2014)

I agree with tuffgong, don't wash your soil. 

My process is to screen the soil with some 1/2" wire mesh to remove any large pieces and break up clumps and get it to a nice fine consistency. I also use a sand cap of about 2" on top of the the soil. I make sure to rinse the sand really well before putting it in the tank. fill the tank, careful not to disturb the cap. If you want really nice clear water, you'll have to do a bunch of water changes in a row, I tend to leave my tanks with the tanins from the dirt, the fish tend to enjoy it. It takes a few months for the water to completely clear up if you go that route. Be careful not to disturb the soil layer when planting; plant the roots into the sand cap.

This way you keep all the nutrients in the soil for the plants and your soil will last at least 18 months. I also add red clay powder to my soil (for iron) if you use active filter media when you start your tank, it will only take a week or so for the nitrogen cycle to stabilize.


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## whonc (Oct 2, 2015)

Thanks for sharing your experience. For now I'm just testing the soil, I think it’s going to be good, when the time comes I will go with 1.5 inch of soil and 2 inch of eco-complete. I just going to screen the soil. I am not washing another 50 kilos of soil. Lol.

Need help on the lights, I have until tomorrow to decide the light we’re going to use. The first choice was the finnex planted+ 7/24 but for that depth I think it will not do the job. My second choice is a SnakeEyes Quad 72" Timer 6500K 3W LED Aquarium Light Freshwater Plant Discus. Third choice is 3 50watts flood light. Options please!


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

Regular dirt that has had the chunks shifted out is a decent idea. I'm a fan of just black diamond blasting sand some root tabs if you are into that. A low tech tank can carpet. My dwarf sag is actually spreading like wild fire. I'm a huge advocate of low tech and I love it. The tank looks pretty good. Something this size could easily house a good school of Rosaline sharks (I have some if you want to check them out). I think I have 8 in my tank, which is pushing it. A good sump will go a long way. A trickle filter, aka wet/dry, will off gas a bit of CO2. I'd consider going with a submerged sump if you can, somewhere in the 55g range for a tank this size. The bean animal overflow is an excellent idea. 

I think you're on your way to having a great tank. I would highly suggest keeping it low tech just for ease of maintenance. A 180g tank is a lot of tank.

EDIT:

I read that you had some concerns about lighting. I've got shop lights with 13w CFL spiral bulbs over my 75g. They are suspended a good 8" from the top of the tank (32" to the substrate) and grow low tech just fine. I actually had to downgrade to 3 lamps instead of 4 because I had too much lighting and I couldn't raise them anymore. So something cheap like that could work. Total cost, $40 for me. I even have dwarf sag carpeting now. I will admit it is not pretty. You could move the mirror and build a cheap hood to house them. An open top hood would keep the temps down, or a closed top would keep the dust out. Mine is closed but has a 2" gap between the wall and I haven't had any issues with temperature lately. I did, in the middle of the summer, see my tank spike about 3* during the day.


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## theatermusic87 (Jun 22, 2014)

I dont wash the soil, but I do put it in the tamk, add water, stir, let it sit an hour or so, stir again, wait an hour and then skim off whatever hasnt sunk in that time. Drain water add cap plant and filla bit messier, but everything in the tank sinks then


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## whonc (Oct 2, 2015)

I think I will buy the Evo Green SnakeEyes Quad 72" Timer 6500K 3W LED Aquarium Light Freshwater Plant Discus.

What size of grain for the black diamond blasting sand, medium of fine?


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

Definitely go with medium. The fine BDBS gets sucked into the filter a lot more. It also floats a lot more than the medium. I have the medium in my 75g and enjoy it much more than the fine I had in my 30g.


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## JCrush (Oct 15, 2015)

Hey, good to see another aquarium enthusiast returning to the hobby. I too am back with the fish tank thing after about a 25 yr. absence and joined the forum a couple days ago. I'm in the middle of planning my new tank set-up. It hasn't arrived yet but I have ordered a 180 gal. tank also. Seems like there is a good chance you, your dad and I will be going through the same experience with maybe some growing pains simultaneously . My tank size is 72 x 18 x 30. The 30 inch. deep thing is a little concerning because I am finding it hard to find LED lights to penetrate that depth without having to go with a high-end lighting set-up that will be very costly. Aside from raising fish the big thing for me is growing live plants. Right now I'm considering three Kessel A360we LEDs. Also, like you, the substrate issue is a little struggle too. I think I am going to go with 2 inches of seachem fluorite sand and 1 and a half inches of super natural sand (sunset gold) maybe.

I'll be following your posts to see how things are progressing for you and I'll also be posting questions along with how things are progressing for me also.


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## whonc (Oct 2, 2015)

JCrush said:


> Hey, good to see another aquarium enthusiast returning to the hobby. I too am back with the fish tank thing after about a 25 yr. absence and joined the forum a couple days ago. I'm in the middle of planning my new tank set-up. It hasn't arrived yet but I have ordered a 180 gal. tank also. Seems like there is a good chance you, your dad and I will be going through the same experience with maybe some growing pains simultaneously . My tank size is 72 x 18 x 30. The 30 inch. deep thing is a little concerning because I am finding it hard to find LED lights to penetrate that depth without having to go with a high-end lighting set-up that will be very costly. Aside from raising fish the big thing for me is growing live plants. Right now I'm considering three Kessel A360we LEDs. Also, like you, the substrate issue is a little struggle too. I think I am going to go with 2 inches of seachem fluorite sand and 1 and a half inches of super natural sand (sunset gold) maybe.
> 
> I'll be following your posts to see how things are progressing for you and I'll also be posting questions along with how things are progressing for me also.



Hi JCRush, welcome aboard, the fellows in this forum are great. I hope you have a good return to the hobby. I read a lot about the light and if I understand correctly you will need a light that have no less than 3 watts led and beam angle of no more than 90 to penetrate to the substrate. The kessel are very good lights but the beam is circular so you will have to gang them upper to minimize dark areas in your tank.

Here is the link of the 3w thread: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/127515-3w-1w-leds-better.html

Good luck.


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## whonc (Oct 2, 2015)

Finally, this couple of weeks, have the time to work on the tank. Some pictures:


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## whonc (Oct 2, 2015)

Still working hard. The front glass was very dirty and scratched so we decide to change it.


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## whonc (Oct 2, 2015)

Pics


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

whonc said:


> Finally, this couple of weeks, have the time to work on the tank. Some pictures:


The Jebao/Jecod DCT pump needs to be in the sump. they cant be used externally from what ive read (minor leaks)


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## whonc (Oct 2, 2015)

Yes, they are not supposed to be use in external applications. I have heard successful stories using it though. Also for the price I will give it a try, if it starts with leaks or warm issues it’s going to be replace.

I already tested circulating water on the sump and is doing very well.

Thanks for the warning. Thats why I'm posting this journal so you can stop me before I do a mess.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

It's awesome that you have access and ability to work with glass like that!


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

Is that 1 1/2" PVC coming off of the return pump? That thing is tiny! Which model did you go with? 

I will say that I LOVE your nearly CTC (coast to coast) weird setup! Beautiful. If you have issues with fish getting in it, make a fence out of gutter guard. I bought mine in black at Lowes (hardware store). Very cheap and it keeps most fish and plants out of the overflow area.


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## whonc (Oct 2, 2015)

Freemananana said:


> Is that 1 1/2" PVC coming off of the return pump? That thing is tiny! Which model did you go with?
> 
> I will say that I LOVE your nearly CTC (coast to coast) weird setup! Beautiful. If you have issues with fish getting in it, make a fence out of gutter guard. I bought mine in black at Lowes (hardware store). Very cheap and it keeps most fish and plants out of the overflow area.


 The pump is a Jebao/Jecod DCT 6000 with an output diameter of 1 ¼” but it’s reduce to 1”. 



That’s funny, yesterday I was thinking what materials are needed to make a fence to keep the fish out of the overflow box and the first thing that comes to my mind was the gutter guard and the plastic mosquito guard.:laugh2:


I try to make the overflow box the larger I can to skim all the surface and to have some emerged plants that cover the upper back wall of the tank.


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## whonc (Oct 2, 2015)

It’s time to start with the plants. The idea is planting on the sides of the overflow box some emerged plants, like a riparium. The plants I’m thinking are:


Hygrophila Polysperma “Rosanervig “
Echinodorus Amazonicus
Bacopa Caroliniana
Cryptocoryne Usteriana


The submerged flora is:


Lilaeopsis brasiliensis
Flame Moss
Vallisneria spiralis
Echinodorus "Ozelot"
Egeria densa
Ludwigia repens "narrow"
Rotala rotundifolia


I try to choose easy and fast growing plants. Most of this plants are on their way. The plan is to fill the tank on Sunday.


For the hardscape I’m planning to use volcanic rock and driftwood. 
As always all your comments and suggestions are welcome.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

You're definitely right on track! Great job and you've really got all my ideas covered. Gutter guard worked well for me. It allows a lot of flow too, compared to a weir with teeth in my experience.


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## whonc (Oct 2, 2015)

I got a new kind of fish that help designing hardscapes! :laugh2:


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## whonc (Oct 2, 2015)

After a week of drawbacks and a lot of learning the tank is taking shape:


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## ROYWS3 (Feb 1, 2014)

Nice! I'm certainly going to keep track of this taking shape!


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## whonc (Oct 2, 2015)

All the plants are growing "Fast" for a low tech tank. Some pics:


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## Larry Grenier (Apr 19, 2005)

Great start!


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## whonc (Oct 2, 2015)

Fauna update:

- 5 x-ray tetras
- 5 red eye tetras
- 10 neon dwarf rainbows 
- 4 pearl gouramis
- 5 giant danios
- 4 bronze cory
- 3 albino cory
- 6 boesemani
- 3 ballon rams


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## lnstevens (Aug 9, 2010)

I may have missed it but what did you finally end up with for lights? I saw the sump/wet/dry setup and the glass replacement, etc.. but somewhere I missed the lights.

And that is an awesome tank.  Seems to be a great generational project as well, which is really cool.


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## whonc (Oct 2, 2015)

It's a Beamswork Snakeeye 3 watt Led light. It's working great, in the bottom of the tank was growing some algae and have to reduce the photoperiod.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Very nice installation. I am also training a fish like yours, this morning she fetched both my wallet, keys and phone from the bedroom on command.


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## whonc (Oct 2, 2015)

It’s has been a long time since my last post but I want to give an update and ask for some help. 3 months ago I went on vacations and my uncle who was helping me to kept the tank leaved open the water valve that is use for water changes for hours and when he realizes of the mistake it was too late. Half of the fish where dead by the next day and the Valisneria Spiralis and the Egeria Densa melted right away. On the other hand, the Bacopa caroliniana, Hygrophila polysperma rosanervig and the Rotala rotundifolia grew a lot.

Right now all the plants are growing slow and the Cryptocoryne usteriana and the Echinodorus "Ozelot" have brown parts on the leaves. So I need to find out what are the deficiencies.

The tank still is a low tech setup, every 3 months a 25% of the water is changed and I don’t dose anything.


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## Bill Williams (Aug 18, 2016)

whonc said:


> I hope the sump don't leak too much CO2. I will reduce the surface agitation by making a full syphon with bean animal system. Do you have a sump? Can I start a low tech tank with this kind of filtration?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can add a small vortex to the pump outlet in the sump and plumb the Co2 directly to that. solve any loss


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## whonc (Oct 2, 2015)

Start dosing ferts a month ago. Each week we dose:


1 teaspoon of seachem equilibrium
1 teaspoon of K2SO4
1/2 teaspoon of KNO3 
1/8 teaspoon of KH2PO4.


With this the plants are looking healthier, the growth still is slow though. The background plants were trimmed and replanted and starts to look like a jungle. In the front we planted some sagittaria subulata and cryptocoryne parva.


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## Brian Rodgers (Oct 15, 2016)

Just gorgeous layout. Beautiful craftsmanship too


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

I would really do more water changes than 25% once every 3 months.
Your fish would thank you for it.
What is the line of green stuff in the top back?


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## whonc (Oct 2, 2015)

Nordic said:


> I would really do more water changes than 25% once every 3 months.
> Your fish would thank you for it.
> What is the line of green stuff in the top back?



In the last 25% water change the hole ecosystem stunt, so I'm still deciding what is the best course of action. Some say that no water changes for a low tech tank are fine and some say that 2 or 3 each year. The last water change was on August and right now everything seems to be normal. The evaporation in this tank is amazing so daily we have to fill between 2 to 4 liters of water. So if you do the math every 3 months we refill more or less 25% of the water, additional to the 25% I was doing every 3 months. I know that this doesn't help get rid of the toxins but the ammonia and nitrite are 0 ppm and the nitrates are between 10 and 20 ppms.

The line of the green stuff is the return overflow that is cover of brown diatoms. Part of the overflow is fill with substrate because we want to grow some emerged plants on there.


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## IntotheWRX (May 13, 2016)

whonc said:


> In the last 25% water change the hole ecosystem stunt, so I'm still deciding what is the best course of action. Some say that no water changes for a low tech tank are fine and some say that 2 or 3 each year. The last water change was on August and right now everything seems to be normal. The evaporation in this tank is amazing so daily we have to fill between 2 to 4 liters of water. So if you do the math every 3 months we refill more or less 25% of the water, additional to the 25% I was doing every 3 months. I know that this doesn't help get rid of the toxins but the ammonia and nitrite are 0 ppm and the nitrates are between 10 and 20 ppms.
> 
> The line of the green stuff is the return overflow that is cover of brown diatoms. Part of the overflow is fill with substrate because we want to grow some emerged plants on there.


i would listen to the tank to see if you need a water change or not. many people here have a made up rule in their head that you need to change #% of water every 7 days. those are all made up rules. I think for a tank like yours, you're doing fine. every 3 months - 4 times a year is fine. as long as you have plants, there is a eco system going on and it's balanced. only the newbies who mess with their water and throw off all their settings and almost comes crashing is when they need to hit a "reset" button and do a water change. but if you have everything balanced, its fine.


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