# T5's to bring out some reds?



## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Is R. macrandra an "easier" plant? Tropica has it listed as "advanced"...


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> update: it was a Manganese and Zinc deficiency. now. all plants are fine.
> 
> the only change was: i replace de Zn EDTA chelate with Zn Sulphate. and i add more in my own micro mix... i switch to a ratio of 3:1 (Fe: Mn) from 4:1


https://barrreport.com/threads/r-macrandra-help.15575/page-2

Worth a try..


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

I'd ditch the csmb, your PH is too high for the edta chelate to remain bound to Fe. This can present a myriad of problems, which some set-ups experience worse than others.

Or without doing anything drastic, you could just double up the Seachem Fe and see what happens. 

Best case using csmb with your PH level is you can assume a good portion of the Fe is being lost.

The other edta chelated micros in csmb are not a problem, it's just the Fe.

If the plants are growing full and healthy with no stunting, then most likely all you need is a dash more Fe.... or a redder light.


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

MCFC said:


> Is R. macrandra an "easier" plant? Tropica has it listed as "advanced"...


I have it growing in a 90 gal low light, no CO2 lean ferts and very minimal water changes without issues... Not super red or anything but its growing no problem.

Bump:


jeffkrol said:


> https://barrreport.com/threads/r-macrandra-help.15575/page-2
> 
> Worth a try..


Current weekly levels 

Mn - 0.0865 ppm
Zn - 0.0155 ppm


Might be worth bumping it...

Bump:


burr740 said:


> I'd ditch the csmb, your PH is too high for the edta chelate to remain bound to Fe. This can present a myriad of problems, which some set-ups experience worse than others.
> 
> Or without doing anything drastic, you could just double up the Seachem Fe and see what happens.
> 
> ...


I figured as much with the CSM+B. Would the Fe come back into solution as the pH dips below 7 during the CO2 period? Or once it precipitates out it's basically lost for good?

I can double up on the Flourish, simple as pressing a button on the auto doser... I've only done 1 dose of CSM+B this week, maybe I'll stop and just continue to double the Flourish comp and Iron. 

Plants are mostly healthy, they were stunted but are recovering nicely for the last 2 weeks or so.


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

The free edta will stick around looking for something else to bind with. The Fe is gone for good.


----------



## OreoP (Aug 12, 2016)

From my experience: I used to dose CSMB early morning when pH was about 7.1. Then started running CO2 24/7 with a ph of 6.6. Dosing was still done early morning. Did not see any significant improvement in the red plants.

Introduced a red power veg light and saw a marked improvement in the red plants. Second step was custom rolled micros. A few weeks later the reds are really popping. So it is a combination of available Fe and light. CO2 is now turned on 90 mins before lights on and turned off 60 mins before lights go out


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

OreoP said:


> From my experience: I used to dose CSMB early morning when pH was about 7.1. Then started running CO2 24/7 with a ph of 6.6. Dosing was still done early morning. Did not see any significant improvement in the red plants.
> 
> Introduced a red power veg light and saw a marked improvement in the red plants. Second step was custom rolled micros. A few weeks later the reds are really popping. So it is a combination of available Fe and light. CO2 is now turned on 90 mins before lights on and turned off 60 mins before lights go out


Powerveg 660 is out of the question, unless you have a Canadian source of a 36" model that won't cost me an arm and a leg, CO2 24/7 I'm not comfortable with (cheap reg + needle valve).

CO2 is on 3 hours prior to lights and off 2 hours prior to lights. 

I am open to custom ferts, just need to wrap my head around the correct products and rates. 

I can lower the pH if need be, I just need to play with me RO mix.


----------



## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Quagulator said:


> I am open to custom ferts, just need to wrap my head around the correct products and rates.


 @burr740 just sent me a package so I could start rolling my own custom micros. It's not super cheap paying for shipping from the US, but I bet he'd send a package your way if you wanted. If he doesn't feel like dealing with the border again I wouldn't mind sending you some. I could even pre-mix some if you asked nicely , but that's probably not necessary. @Greggz has a really good step-by-step instruction post in his journal on how to weigh and mix the ferts, and burr is incredibly helpful when it comes to target ppm's.


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Run CO2 until an hour before the lights go out, or 30 minutes. 

Two hours is a long time and the last thing you want is insufficient levels during the last part of the day. Might be part of the problem...

PM if you wanna talk fert shipping


----------



## OreoP (Aug 12, 2016)

Quagulator said:


> Powerveg 660 is out of the question, unless you have a Canadian source of a 36" model that won't cost me an arm and a leg.


Unfortunately Power Veg does not make 36" tubes. A budget friendly option would be True Lumen FLora. I would still consider custom micros. Up front cost for Burr's package may seem high but it will last you years and will yield positive results. And as mentioned above, @Greggz has a fantastic step by step write up in his journal


----------



## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Grrr. Not yet another thing to consider ...


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Even at 2 hours before lights go out there is still a CO2 bubble stuck in the reactor, stays in there for another hour after the lights go out. I should really look into building a more efficient reactor... (I cannot use diffusers/atomizers as my reg working pressure maxes out at 30ppm.) 

I think I would be interested in some custom micro's, time to PM a few members I guess


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

It doesnt matter if there's a bubble in the reactor. That doesnt mean co2 is hitting the tank at the same level as when it's on.

Check the PH during the last hour and see if it's starting to climb yet


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

burr740 said:


> It doesnt matter if there's a bubble in the reactor. That doesnt mean co2 is hitting the tank at the same level as when it's on.
> 
> Check the PH during the last hour and see if it's starting to climb yet


Will do that tonight, I just HATE the end of day annoying gas bubble, drives me INSANE listening to it. Usually I just turn the reactor upside down to release the bubble.


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

So, after doing some tests I think my CO2 is not staying at sufficient levels throughout the photo period, thanks to Joe for reminding me that you can never test enough (despite "thinking" my levels were fairly consistent). 

So, originally the tank was running with:

pH - 7.5 dropping to 6.4 w/ CO2
kH - 4
gH - 8
TDS - 250-300ppm

After testing today and last night:

pH - 6.8 dropping to 6.0 w/ CO2 and creeping up for the last 2 hours of the photo period (after CO2 shuts off, confirming what Joe was describing a few posts back). 

kH - 5
gH - 8
TDS - 250-300ppm

So, I have no clue why the pH is running so much lower than it once was. I used a calibrated pH pen and confirmed with an API pH test tube for this test and the previous tests a few months back.... Does this lower pH make CSM+B invective? I'm continuing on the full EI daily dose of flourish comp and flourish Fe, no CSM+B and watch for results... 

Next step? I have a spare Rena XP (I think its the large version, says up to 175 gallons), would pushing more water through the reactor help dissolve more? I would think so... or is it more related to back pressure increasing the amount forces into solution? 

Either way I think I'm ready for more flow in the tank... Just need to go to the hardware store and grab some tubing for the Rena.


----------



## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Quagulator said:


> So, I have no clue why the pH is running so much lower than it once was. I used a calibrated pH pen and confirmed with an API pH test tube for this test and the previous tests a few months back....


Not saying this is the case, but keep in mind the KH (and hence pH) of tap water can change. Many have documented here in various threads. True in both municipal and well water supplies, and many times is seasonally related. 

Good to see you checking it closely and trying to correct. I know for me, getting CO2 drop right is extremely important. My tank is used to pretty high levels, and just slightly lower levels (.2) are noticeable. Personally I wouldn't be afraid to shoot for a larger pH drop. Many here are closer to 1.2 or more (1.35 in my own tank).

Good luck and looking forward to seeing where this goes.


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Quagulator said:


> Does this lower pH make CSM+B invective? .


Down in the 6s is better than up in the 7s. Being up in the 7s is why I pointed out the potential problem to begin with.

The Fe in csmb is chelated with edta. Edta starts to break loose from Fe around 6.5. Unchelated Fe is very unstable, it quickly precipitates or bids with/changes to something else, FePO4 for example

It's not an all or nothing thing where at 6.6 it's all gone. That's just the point where the edta chelate starts to lose it's bond with Fe. The higher the PH gets the quicker and more separation happens.

Note that 6.5 is edta's threshold for Fe only. To the other micros it stays bound much higher. 


Personally I think you should start by fixing CO2. You may not even to adjust ferts


----------



## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Quagulator said:


> thanks to Joe for reminding me that you can never test enough (despite "thinking" my levels were fairly consistent).


Amen. My sentiments exactly, on both points.

If the filter already dissolves 100% of co2, then more flow will not help in that department. BUT more / better flow will make a difference in co2 distribution throughout the tank. That point hit me (again) last night when I was trimming 60P: I first noticed the pH drop apperently shrunk by 0.2 within a couple of days and *then* I realized that the plant mass increased by 30++% within 4-5 days. More mouths to feed and the last in line go on a diet.

In any case, I'm cleaning my filter tomorrow.

On a parallel topic, thoughts on suplemental red -only LEDs? Saw some on Amazon in the $30-50 range and I am now a great target for any related snake oil.

(what happened to "better dead then red"?).


----------



## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> On a parallel topic, thoughts on suplemental red -only LEDs? Saw some on Amazon in the $30-50 range and I am now a great target for any related snake oil.
> 
> (what happened to "better dead then red"?).


I seem to recall this coming up from time to time, and the general result was little to no effect.

Now I'm sure that might be different depending on the power of the add on LED's you are considering. In a couple cases I remember folks just adding some cheap strip type LED's and their main fixture simply out powered them and drowned out any effect. 

Would be interesting to test this with a Seneye monitor to see if it would create any actual additional PAR or PUR.


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

OVT said:


> Amen. My sentiments exactly, on both points.
> 
> If the filter already dissolves 100% of co2, then more flow will not help in that department. BUT more / better flow will make a difference in co2 distribution throughout the tank. That point hit me (again) last night when I was trimming 60P: I first noticed the pH drop apperently shrunk by 0.2 within a couple of days and *then* I realized that the plant mass increased by 30++% within 4-5 days. More mouths to feed and the last in line go on a diet.
> 
> ...


Got a web link to one these red LED strips? I'm curious to what some reds / pinks will do... 

My Fluval should be pushing 200+ PAR directly at the surface and the reds aren't popping too much. Even being rated at 7500K I find it too be too warm, so I've got a 50/50 white/blue 15w strip on there too, helps with color attractiveness with minimal if any additional PAR.


----------



## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

For giggles:

https://www.amazon.com/Light-Topled-5Metres-16-4ft-Spectrum/dp/B01EZTUYRA/ref=sr_1_38?ie=UTF8&qid=1528877456&sr=8-38&keywords=aquarium%2Bled%2Bred%2Blight&th=1

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LFFUV2A/ref=twister_B01GW1VKUY?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

Claims UV:

https://www.amazon.com/Niello-Aquarium-Light-Spectrum-Growth/dp/B01M4JG74A/ref=sr_1_21?ie=UTF8&qid=1528930119&sr=8-21&keywords=aquarium+red+led+light

Swap in a couple of these for the night (jk)

https://www.amazon.com/Osunby-Growing-Indoor-Plants-Hydroponic/dp/B075JFPLY1/ref=sr_1_55?ie=UTF8&qid=1528930291&sr=8-55&keywords=aquarium+red+led+light

I have a couple of 3w red Deep Blue sun flare stick-on lights. I used one as accent light at night on the back wall and I was dumbfounded when I saw that floating ricca attached itself to the wall and grew a dense mat perfectly within the light's triangular reflection. Pure magic.


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Finnex monster ray is a pretty good color enhancing LED, but they're not exactly cheap.

Never tried one personally. Vin had one on his Dutch at one point along with a BML, it made a big difference


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

burr740 said:


> Finnex monster ray is a pretty good color enhancing LED, but they're not exactly cheap.
> 
> Never tried one personally. Vin had one on his Dutch at one point along with a BML, it made a big difference


Wish I had access to Finnex..... 

Could probably find an American supplier that will ship here, but then it is quite $$$


----------



## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

I will continue to think that lack of UV is the culprit ... until I prove myself wrong.

Finnex? Like fixing / replacing much?


----------



## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

@OVT - Don't the PowerVeg's have a UV component? Maybe $50/bulb is better than a $50 LED?


----------



## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

MCFC said:


> @OVT - Don't the PowerVeg's have a UV component? Maybe $50/bulb is better than a $50 LED?


Indeed. That did cross my mind and I can always switch back to 100% t5s.

My personal issues: I have the time, I hate to admit defeat / mistakes, I like to fuel the fire. In the end, it does not really matter in the scope of life.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

A reminder.. Zero UV....]









https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/light-tuning-spectrum.html


----------



## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

@jeffkrol: no UV in BML Dutch?

Then it must be next to a window  Good reminder, dang.


----------



## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

jeffkrol said:


> A reminder.. Zero UV....]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting Jeff.

Much of what you see here has little or nothing to do with lighting. It has more to do with creating the conditions that bring out certain colors in particular plants. Lean dosing and nitrate starvation. Works with a few select plants, but is a complete failure with others. 

And is it sustainable and something many can duplicate? Well, I've rarely if ever have seen it. It's like walking a tightrope......very easy to fall off and crash anytime. Fine line between showing those colors and stunting and melting and gone. Sure Dennis can do it......but anyone else here on this site???? You??

And my guess would be the colors would like the same or even better under T5.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

OVT said:


> @*jeffkrol*: no UV in BML Dutch?
> 
> Then it must be next to a window  Good reminder, dang.


He did a custom spectrum.. not even any 660nm.. 

https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/uploads/1/0/4/4/104405095/bml-custom-led-diodes_orig.jpg




Greggz said:


> Interesting Jeff.
> 
> Much of what you see here has little or nothing to do with lighting. It has more to do with creating the conditions that bring out certain colors in particular plants. Lean dosing and nitrate starvation. Works with a few select plants, but is a complete failure with others.
> 
> And is it sustainable and something many can duplicate? Well, I've rarely if ever have seen it. It's like walking a tightrope......very easy to fall off and crash anytime. Fine line between showing those colors and stunting and melting and gone. Sure Dennis can do it......but anyone else here on this site???? You??


I'm sure others here on the site can..

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...-light-can-grow-red-plants-really-well-2.html









Greggz said:


> And my guess would be the colors would like the same or even better under T5.



Spoken like a true T5 fan boy.. 
2013 AGA Aquascaping Contest - #513


> Lighting 8x52w T5HO


416W.. How many here could even handle that?
110Gal tank
How many would use like 300W of LEDs?









Pretty sure that photo is "enhanced"..but ??

t5's or LED's NEITHER is part. "easy"....


Besides red isn't exactly "healthy".. 










https://youtu.be/ghaiqx4AzcI

Oh heck.. one more..


> On the right is Mark Crow's planted tank under twin BML LEDs. Finding a good spectrum selection can take effort though. Examples such as these fully dispel the notion that "LEDs can't grow aquarium plants" or that "LEDs can't grow red aquarium plants well".


https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/light-t5vsled.html









https://www.aquascapeawards.com/scapes/dutch-jungle-160202093828/


----------



## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Custom BML, double BML Dutch - affordable alternatives to t5's they are, straight from Amazon and LFS. Twinstar S are looking good, @ $500 for two, sans a bundled controller.

Take a look at the red plants in the picture you posted:










Ludwidgia red and Rotala colorata and AR mini. Half dead DH though. Me thinks Satelites Plus can grow that also. Still a nice scape.


----------



## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

It may be more about the ratio of LED/light than the PAR. For instance, the twinstar has 40 red LEDs compared to the 55 white LEDs, a near 1:1 ratio. Dennis' BML fixture has 4 reds to compliment the 4 3000k and 4 5000k LEDs. Burr's 6-T5HO mix has 3 pink and 1 purple bulb. My own tank has 1 red for every 2 whites. That's a ton of red. The Fluval 2.0 (36") has 9 reds, 9 blues, and *98* whites (counted from the product images). If you want to have similar appearance as these other tanks, you need more red light.

I don't have a Satellite plus, but it looks like you can customize the R G B, and W power. Try setting your planted plus to 50%, then have 100% ONLY red LEDs on the satellite (no other colors). It will probably look very pink initially, but after 5-10 minutes your eyes will adjust and you'll notice the reds and greens will look more saturated.

As an experiment, we might be able to get multiple people to take pictures of their red-plant trimmings in direct sunlight on white paper. Then we can see if it's the plant itself, or merely an effect of having more red light available.


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

SpringHalo said:


> It may be more about the ratio of LED/light than the PAR. For instance, the twinstar has 40 red LEDs compared to the 55 white LEDs, a near 1:1 ratio. Dennis' BML fixture has 4 reds to compliment the 4 3000k and 4 5000k LEDs. Burr's 6-T5HO mix has 3 pink and 1 purple bulb. My own tank has 1 red for every 2 whites. That's a ton of red. The Fluval 2.0 (36") has 9 reds, 9 blues, and *98* whites (counted from the product images). If you want to have similar appearance as these other tanks, you need more red light.
> 
> I don't have a Satellite plus, but it looks like you can customize the R G B, and W power. Try setting your planted plus to 50%, then have 100% ONLY red LEDs on the satellite (no other colors). It will probably look very pink initially, but after 5-10 minutes your eyes will adjust and you'll notice the reds and greens will look more saturated.
> 
> As an experiment, we might be able to get multiple people to take pictures of their red-plant trimmings in direct sunlight on white paper. Then we can see if it's the plant itself, or merely an effect of having more red light available.


Fluval 2.0 can't adjust color.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

SpringHalo said:


> As an experiment, we might be able to get multiple people to take pictures of their red-plant trimmings in direct sunlight on white paper. Then we can see if it's the plant itself, or merely an effect of having more red light available.



That is actually a really good point.
My orig. LED builds grew plants that were certainly "redder" when looked at in daylight than when in the tank.
It is def. one piece of the puzzle..


----------



## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

Quagulator said:


> Fluval 2.0 can't adjust color.


Can you adjust brightness? I thought you mentioned in the original post that you had a Satellite plus, which would be used for the single color accent. If it's not a Sat+ Pro, you might not be able to try that either. In that case, my only cheap non-DIY suggestion is trying out "Marineland Red Accent Hidden LED System" as they're going out of production and are $20 each instead of $50. The issue I see with that option though, is that it uses deep red 660nm LEDs, which are only 1/3 the brightness (to your eyes) than the typical 630nm LEDs. Combine this with the low power of the LEDs (72x 0.06W), they're only equivalent to a couple of red 3W diodes.

I don't like recommending DIY to people who would rather get pre-made, but it might be the best option to get your red-boosting accent light at 36". You could get RapidLED solderless LEDs and driver, and a 36" stevesleds HD heatsink, and assemble everything without any soldering. I'm not sure how much It'd cost to ship to canada, but it's $32 for the heatsink, and $65 for the LEDs before shipping. The led mix would be 10 standard red and 3 standard blue leds.

Another option is to get some aluminum C-channel from your friendly home improvement store and slap a few rows of RGB led strips on. You'd get 5 rows if you buy the typical 5m strip, and that should get you enough red (plus some blue and green; you can experiment) to at least see if more is worth pursuing.


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

SpringHalo said:


> Can you adjust brightness? I thought you mentioned in the original post that you had a Satellite plus, which would be used for the single color accent. If it's not a Sat+ Pro, you might not be able to try that either. In that case, my only cheap non-DIY suggestion is trying out "Marineland Red Accent Hidden LED System" as they're going out of production and are $20 each instead of $50. The issue I see with that option though, is that it uses deep red 660nm LEDs, which are only 1/3 the brightness (to your eyes) than the typical 630nm LEDs. Combine this with the low power of the LEDs (72x 0.06W), they're only equivalent to a couple of red 3W diodes.
> 
> I don't like recommending DIY to people who would rather get pre-made, but it might be the best option to get your red-boosting accent light at 36". You could get RapidLED solderless LEDs and driver, and a 36" stevesleds HD heatsink, and assemble everything without any soldering. I'm not sure how much It'd cost to ship to canada, but it's $32 for the heatsink, and $65 for the LEDs before shipping. The led mix would be 10 standard red and 3 standard blue leds.
> 
> Another option is to get some aluminum C-channel from your friendly home improvement store and slap a few rows of RGB led strips on. You'd get 5 rows if you buy the typical 5m strip, and that should get you enough red (plus some blue and green; you can experiment) to at least see if more is worth pursuing.



I use the Fluval for the main light, it does all the heavy lifting. Average 100+ PAR @ substrate level. 

I use a 50/50 cool white / actinic blue 15 watt modular strip for helping counter the yellowy look of the Fluval.

I was, not anymore, using a 24" Sat+ non-pro "just because". The reds on it are horrendously low powered. 

After diving in deeper, testing + measuring things, I am not reaching sufficient CO2 levels nor am I getting the most out of my ferts, so I am going to tackle CO2 and ferts first, look for a response and then possibly look into lighting. 

For CO2, I am going to go ahead and opt for a much larger filter, pump more CO2 into the reactor and make sure I keep it at suffiencent levels throughout the photo period. This will also help with flow in the tank, I am noticing some dead spots as the filter ages + more plant growth. 

I just fixed a few issues with my auto doser, so my ferts "should" be up to spec for the time being (until I inevitably roll my own blends). 

I'm with @OVT on this one, I want to see if "over the counter" common LED's can get some nice reds. I can't see this tank being torn down for a while, so I'm excited to see what I can get out of it. 

I will look up that Marineland one tho....


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

https://orphek.com/or-bar-led-light/

Pick one for supplemental color.. Pretend it's a tube.. 

ask yourself what is the difference between apparently successful BML's (extinct) and current fixtures..


----------



## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

Though I'm not sure of the cost this thread https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/buy-today-the-new-orphek-or-120-90-60-bars-led-lights.390915/ would indicate that they are open to customizing the leds used.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...&oi=scholarr&usg=AOvVaw2UaP4CJ94KC494dNvF9ZJu

There is a lot of work going on in trying to "stimulate" anthrocyanin (red -ish pigments) production w/ LED's.. so take heart..


----------



## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

jeffkrol said:


> https://orphek.com/or-bar-led-light/
> 
> Pick one for supplemental color.. Pretend it's a tube..
> 
> ask yourself what is the difference between apparently successful BML's (extinct) and current fixtures..


And I was hopping for the intimate details from @jeffkrol.
$120 for 24".

The freshwater planted tank on their site is ... um, planted:


----------



## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

That's my tank :/


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

OVT said:


> And I was hopping for the intimate details from @*jeffkrol*.
> $120 for 24".
> 
> The freshwater planted tank on their site is ... um, planted:



Do your own homework.. like the rest of us...


----------



## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

jeffkrol said:


> Do your own homework.. like the rest of us...


Deal, I'll send you another watch.


----------



## acino (Nov 14, 2017)

In case you guys are interested, I discussed many of these aspects of lighting from the perspective of a photochemist here:

https://barrreport.com/articles/light-in-planted-tanks.48/

In terms of purely harvesting energy, plants are quite undemanding and almost any wavelengths will do. However, besides chlorophyll and some auxiliary pigments most of you are familiar with, there are many more photoactive compounds present in the plants, i.e. photoreceptors such as UVR8, cryptochrome, photothropin, phytochrome which are responsible for governing many processes within the plants. Unfortunately, these mechanisms are still relatively poorly understood, and even more so for aquatic plants. Some of the examples are discussed in the article above and the literature provides many examples where induction of pigment formation is wavelength-dependent (especially for UVA and blue light). 

Some things might not be discovered yet at all - for instance, recently so called "orange carotenoid protein" has been discovered in cyanobacteria. This protein triggers synthesis of carotenoids upon exposure to blue/cyan light. Interestingly, it absorbs around 470-490 nm, exactly where most of the LEDs nowdays lack emission the most. Could such protein exist in plants too? I don't know, we don't seem to know yet.

As a photochemist, I would love do some experiments regarding this, but I don't have the time and money for this right now. 

Loving the discussion though!


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

acino said:


> In case you guys are interested, I discussed many of these aspects of lighting from the perspective of a photochemist here:
> 
> https://barrreport.com/articles/light-in-planted-tanks.48/
> 
> ...



The above paper I posted used 500nm (cyan) as one of the monochromatic lights. Results were somewhat interesting.

and you are correct, translating some things from terrestrial to aquatic has its perils...


----------



## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Wobblebonk said:


> That's my tank :/


Nice tank. Healthy looking plants and well presented.

You should start a journal. Would like to learn more about it.

Bump:


jeffkrol said:


> Spoken like a true T5 fan boy..


Jeff I do use T5 now, but who knows, at some point I could go to LED.

And there is no doubt there are plenty of fantastic tanks using LED. If you follow Vin's Going Dutch with Aquasoil thread, he uses LED light. To me one of the best threads and and most beautiful tanks to learn much from. Interestingly, the LED fixture he uses are BML Dutch, three of them on his 180G tank. Seems many of the best LED tanks I have seen use BML, too bad they are not available anymore. What is about those lights that makes them different than others? I truly don't know but surely have seen enough nice tanks using them that there must be something.

What I have noticed is that sometimes folks purchase an inexpensive LED light and expect it to perform like T5. From what I have seen, it takes a bit more investment or a good DIY build to get there. And I'm sure the perfect LED light for planted tanks is coming, and then I'll consider changing over. I'm sure it would be a blast just from the aspect of using a controller to adjust colors/intensity and build lighting programs. 

In the meantime, when you see me bring up T5, it's that sometimes folks forget it's an option. It's still an affordable way to get high PAR and color over a tank. And yes, it can also be done with LED, just seems a bit more complicated and costly at the moment.


----------



## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Greggz said:


> What I have noticed is that sometimes folks purchase an inexpensive LED light and expect it to perform like T5. From what I have seen, it takes a bit more investment or a good DIY build to get there. And I'm sure the perfect LED light for planted tanks is coming, and then I'll consider changing over. I'm sure it would be a blast just from the aspect of using a controller to adjust colors/intensity and build lighting programs.


Some of the cheap LED lights look great, they just lack PAR and reliability is a concern. Its amazing what they can do with low quality diodes when they mix the right colors together.

Some of the higher quality LED fixtures like the Twinstar look amazing imo, and of course Dennis Wong's tanks.

One of the hallmarks to me of good led lighting is that it is colorful yet does not have that purple tint I associate with fluorescent planted tanks. This might be because there are no "green" fluorescents and the grow lights are purple.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

acino said:


> https://barrreport.com/articles/light-in-planted-tanks.48/
> 
> 
> Loving the discussion though!


NOTE: Interesting papers:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC549873/?page=6
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1061720/
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...2111/pdf-vor&usg=AOvVaw1NoWnDXGVZ0W5HQ1D_BRXL
Yea, gets complicated fast..


> When exposed to constant high-intensity white light, rough bluegrass plants significantly increased anthocyanin concentration compared to untreated plants. Light-treated plants exhibited an average 117.64-fold increase in anthocyanin content, and accumulated anthocyanins in both leaf blades and sheath tissue. "Our data show that the anthocyanin content of rough bluegrass after high-light treatment is comparable to or greater than many common fruits and vegetables, particularly red leaf lettuce, and consists of the same anthocyanins," Petrella noted.
> To determine the primary wavelength(s) of light responsible for upregulating anthocyanin synthesis, dark-grown and light-grown rough bluegrass seedlings were exposed to blue, red, and far-red LED light. Blue light, at intensities between 150 and 250 mmol·m-2·s-1, was the only wavelength that increased anthocyanin content. However, when red light was applied with blue light at 30% or 50% of the total light intensity, anthocyanin content was increased compared with blue light alone.


 Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2016-12-high-intensity-anthocyanin-accumulation-rough-bluegrass.html#jCp

https://phys.org/news/2016-12-high-intensity-anthocyanin-accumulation-rough-bluegrass.html







Greggz said:


> And there is no doubt there are plenty of fantastic tanks using LED. If you follow Vin's Going Dutch with Aquasoil thread, he uses LED light. To me one of the best threads and and most beautiful tanks to learn much from. Interestingly, the LED fixture he uses are BML Dutch, three of them on his 180G tank. Seems many of the best LED tanks I have seen use BML
> In the meantime, when you see me bring up T5, it's that sometimes folks forget it's an option. It's still an affordable way to get high PAR and color over a tank. And yes, it can also be done with LED, just seems a bit more complicated and costly at the moment.



Sorry, just pulling your leg a bit..
Tubes probably had over a decade or 2 to be "worked out" where, to be honest, as far as I'm concerned, LED design is only a few years old for the point of being ACTUALLY concerned w/ high quality..


BML was an outlier and, unfortunately, less profitable than their current direction (assumed of course).


Actually Reefbreeders did custom spectrums as well but few "bothered" themselves to go that route.
Understandable it takes more commitment than just plopping $'s down on a CC.....
OLD custom reefbreeders.. not "red targeted" really..though the PAR output helps..











now, lets being honest, there are 'looks" that are not all one size fits all..


----------



## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

Dennis Wong does red by nutrient starvation so not a good example of lighting.

At the end of the day T5 is pretty much plug and play when it comes to reds. LED not so much.

Also that AGA tank link with the T5 that purple colored plant is not happening easily with LED.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

gus6464 said:


> Dennis Wong does red by nutrient starvation so not a good example of lighting.
> 
> At the end of the day T5 is pretty much plug and play when it comes to reds. LED not so much.
> 
> Also that AGA tank link with the T5 that purple colored plant is not happening easily with LED.


t5..LED both do it...











Not convinced this is not both N starved and photo enhanced by adj. color saturation..

https://youtu.be/zrYrWW98XE0

There some really carnival lighting here.. Glass glowing blue certainly isn't normal??

Maybe need a blacklight LED.. 

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2017/show757.html

good assortment of tubes and LED's..

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2017/show681.html

just for fun..
Zetlight ZT6400
http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2017/show749.html


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

OVT said:


> Deal, I'll send you another watch.



Ive always wondered what if both watches had the same time? Does the guy know or is he still not sure?


----------



## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

burr740 said:


> Ive always wondered what if both watches had the same time? Does the guy know or is he still not sure?


????????????????????????????

You hittin' the sauce early tonight Joe???:wink2:

I'm sure that means something, but darned if I have a clue??:grin2:


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

burr740 said:


> Ive always wondered what if both watches had the same time? Does the guy know or is he still not sure?






> *Segal's law* is an adage that states:
> "A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure."[1] The mood of the saying is ironical. While at a surface level it appears to be advocating the simplicity and self-consistency obtained by relying on information from only a single source, the underlying message is to gently question and make fun of such apparent certainty – a man with one watch can't _really_ be sure he knows the right time, he merely has no way to identify error or uncertainty.
> Nevertheless, the saying is also used in its purely surface sense, to caution against the potential pitfalls of having too much potentially conflicting information when making a decision.





> In reality a man possessing one watch has no idea whether it is the correct time unless he is able to compare it to a known standard, in which case he effectively has more than one watch.[2] This situation is not made any worse by having two watches. One might even think that it is better since if the two watches are in approximate agreement one might assume that both are working and an average of them will yield the correct time to within some accuracy depending on the specification of the timepieces. While this is true, the probability of knowing the right time is still exactly the same as with one watch. This is because the probability of all combinations of states of the two watches needs to be taken into account. Let there be two states: W (working—showing the correct time), and B (broken—showing the incorrect time). The set of possible states of the two watches are then;..............................................
> (SNIP)
> see link..


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segal's_law

See just like ANY discussion... 


> Maths doesn't make sense
> 
> Some logical thought can show that the maths in this article doesn't make sense:
> 
> ...


----------



## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

jeffkrol said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segal's_law


Oh Geez reading that makes ME want to start hitting the sauce early!:grin2:


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

jeffkrol said:


> t5..LED both do it...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


here's his journal, i remembered book marking it cuz he used hydroton clay balls for substrate 
2nd attempt on high-tech planted: 50 shades of red

but yeah im pretty sure that video and photo have a bit of color adjustment.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> here's his journal, i remembered book marking it cuz he used hydroton clay balls for substrate
> 2nd attempt on high-tech planted: 50 shades of red
> 
> but yeah im pretty sure that video and photo have a bit of color adjustment.


6-11-12
Funny..


> As for the Vertex Illumina LED, i have now swapped back to T5HO using ATI Sunpower dimmable unit. Vertex was sexy but i just didn't feel the end result as good as T5HO. I have tried all different settings including adding red modules in to boost plant growth but the cool white effect just didn't do it unfortunately. I think its definitely catered for reefers as i know MASA members are all having a ball with the Illumina light.
> 
> I know few members have taken down the DIY route with LEDs and some have excellent results. As for myself, after spending almost 4k on this unit, i can conclude that T5HO/MH is still the way to go. Until these high-end LED companies spend some R&D on planted light.... might be a while, as the market for planted is still relatively small compare to reefers.






> Im sure you can achieve that Sam, its really not rocket science, plenty of light, plenty of Co2, plenty of iron and trace. My ADA soil is still quite new hence I'm growing everything well, the challenge starts later down the track when the nutrients are depleting.
> Like you would have imagined, its hard to keep every plant sp happy the same time, im dosing lean nutrient to make my plants 'redder' but looking at my stauro and hygro corymbosa, they look slightly stunted from low No3 (*only maintaining at 5ppm*)



BTW: After switching to t5's.. 


What did I say earlier? They all do it...


----------



## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

I am trimming and replanting some plants in my 60P. That tank has 2 lowly Satelites Plus with white channels at 75% and 50%. Regardless of which plant I look at,

---> the leaves closest to the surface are the healthiest, greenest, reddest

and that has been my consistent observation in all my tanks through the years.

My personal experience denies any credibility to assertions that aquarium plants are not light hungry. Species specific, not unlike terrestrial plants, the number of photons needed to survive is drastically different from the number of photons to prosper.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

OVT said:


> I am trimming and replanting some plants in my 60P. That tank has 2 lowly Satelites Plus with white channels at 75% and 50%. Regardless of which plant I look at,
> 
> ---> the leaves closest to the surface are the healthiest, greenest, reddest
> 
> ...



Need perspective.... 


*1.8*

*That is the DLI of 50 PAR @ 10 hours /day..*


----------



## acino (Nov 14, 2017)

OVT said:


> I am trimming and replanting some plants in my 60P. That tank has 2 lowly Satelites Plus with white channels at 75% and 50%. Regardless of which plant I look at,
> 
> ---> the leaves closest to the surface are the healthiest, greenest, reddest
> 
> ...



Is this the effect of (only) higher light? The tops have generally the best access to CO2 and nutrients due to best flow around them.


----------

