# No large stones in my Seiryu shipment



## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Hi everyone,

I have a question RE: hardscape that I need opinions on. I’m going to be moving and rescaping my 125G tank, and decided on Seiryu Stone. I bought 180 lbs of stone, and made very specific notes to the seller that I needed at least 2-3 very large stones in order to create an aquascape in a tank this large. I would have thought that this was possible with the size of the order I was placing. I just received my shipment yesterday, and there was nothing in the boxes over 10” in any dimension, and most stones were under 6". Is this normal for Seiryu stone? Did I make a mistake, and this is normally just a smaller stone?

I’m not going to say which company I bought it from because I’ve sent a request for them to work with me to make it right. I don’t want to give them a black eye if they can fix the problem. I’ve worked with this company several times in the past, and their customer service is normally top notch.

My question is more with the stone, and if I would be unreasonable to ask for a return if they can’t get larger stones for me. Is this just par for the course for Seiryu Stone, or should I have expected a few large pieces in my shipment?


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

I've ordered pallets of Seiryu Stone and rarely do I get any larger than 10"


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @jellopuddinpop,

Historically most of the Seiryu Stone (actually Ying Stone from Guangzhou in Southern China since Japan no longer allows the export of stone from the Seiryu district of Japan) was used for Bonsai arrangements and the common size of stones needed are 6" - 8" at the largest. I have a source locally that brings in stone direct from China and I have never seen large sizes in the huge wooden bins they import. You could use some clear silicone to 'glue' several pieces together and possibly achieve a better look than a large piece of natural stone. Keep in mind that Seiryu / Ying stone is a type of limestone and will increase the dKH, dGH, and calcium ppm level in an aquarium so regular water changes are important. Hope this helps!


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @jellopuddinpop,
> 
> Historically most of the Seiryu Stone (actually Ying Stone from Guangzhou in Southern China since Japan no longer allows the export of stone from the Seiryu district of Japan) was used for Bonsai arrangements and the common size of stones needed are 6" - 8" at the largest. I have a source locally that brings in stone direct from China and I have never seen large sizes in the huge wooden bins they import. You could use some clear silicone to 'glue' several pieces together and possibly achieve a better look than a large piece of natural stone. Keep in mind that Seiryu / Ying stone is a type of limestone and will increase the dKH, dGH, and calcium ppm level in an aquarium so regular water changes are important. Hope this helps!


Thank you for the information. On the one hand, I'm glad my supplier didn't just ship me junk. On the other hand, I wish that they had told me in advance that they couldn't satisfy my request for big stones.

As far as the water changes, I'm well prepared. I do 50% water changes weekly.

Bump:


Asteroid said:


> I've ordered pallets of Seiryu Stone and rarely do I get any larger than 10"


Thank you for the info. I wish my supplier had told me that larger stones weren't available, but at least they didn't just ship me small rocks on purpose.


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## pantherspawn (Dec 21, 2011)

Where does one order large quantities of stone? I can only find the smaller pieces on Amazon for 17lbs, or 5 and 10 lb increments from random online retailers.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

pantherspawn said:


> Where does one order large quantities of stone? I can only find the smaller pieces on Amazon for 17lbs, or 5 and 10 lb increments from random online retailers.


PM sent


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

pantherspawn said:


> Where does one order large quantities of stone? I can only find the smaller pieces on Amazon for 17lbs, or 5 and 10 lb increments from random online retailers.


it's sold in those increments because it fits in a flat rate USPS box. If it doesn't fit and the seller has to use a regular box the shipping fees would be more than the cost of the rocks.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

pantherspawn said:


> Where does one order large quantities of stone? I can only find the smaller pieces on Amazon for 17lbs, or 5 and 10 lb increments from random online retailers.


Some online retailers such as BucePLant and Glass Aqua that sell stone for $2.50 - $3.00 per pound factor the shipping costs into the per pound price and then charge a really small "shipping charge." I bought 150 lbs of seiryu from Buceplant earlier in the year when they had a sale and the shipping charge was under $10. Out of curiosity, I just added 300 lbs into my cart and the shipping charge is $8.50.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Jeff5614 said:


> Some online retailers such as BucePLant and Glass Aqua that sell stone for $2.50 - $3.00 per pound factor the shipping costs into the per pound price and then charge a really small "shipping charge." I bought 150 lbs of seiryu from Buceplant earlier in the year when they had a sale and the shipping charge was under $10. Out of curiosity, I just added 300 lbs into my cart and the shipping charge is $8.50.


What was the cost per pound with the 300 lb order and how was it being shipped?


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Asteroid said:


> What was the cost per pound with the 300 lb order and how was it being shipped?


$2.69 per pound including the $8.50 and I'm assuming priority mail, thirty pounds per box, if it ships the same as mine did.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Jeff5614 said:


> $2.69 per pound including the $8.50 and I'm assuming priority mail, thirty pounds per box, if it ships the same as mine did.


OK so they're sending it in multiple priority mail boxes, probably flat rate. Each box could be anywhere from $7 - $20 shipping cost, so for 10 boxes of stone $70 to $200 they're eating minus the $8.50. I guess if you order enough they can do that since there's enough margin from the wholesale price.


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## ahem (Dec 27, 2014)

Amazon has a seller reselling "Lifegard Aquatics 25G-Smoky Smoky Mountain Stone 25G Rock Kit,brown" for $54. I believe it is approximately 37 pounds of stone. I have not found a better deal than this after adding in shipping (I get "free" with Amazon prime). I wanted the Buceplant "boutique Seiryu" but with shipping it was a lot more per pound than this kit. So I took a chance bought one and am quite pleased with the stones. The large stone is about 10". They are not "brown" as the title says. They are grey though some have a small amount of brown mineral swirled in. After a several hours vinegar bath, they look really nice. It darkens them a little, though not as dark as the darkest Seiyru, and makes the white veins really pop. Ordered another 25G kit. The only thing is you don't get any small chips but I think a hammer will give me that.


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## jsvand5 (Aug 26, 2012)

ahem said:


> Amazon has a seller reselling "Lifegard Aquatics 25G-Smoky Smoky Mountain Stone 25G Rock Kit,brown" for $54. I believe it is approximately 37 pounds of stone. I have not found a better deal than this after adding in shipping (I get "free" with Amazon prime). I wanted the Buceplant "boutique Seiryu" but with shipping it was a lot more per pound than this kit. So I took a chance bought one and am quite pleased with the stones. The large stone is about 10". They are not "brown" as the title says. They are grey though some have a small amount of brown mineral swirled in. After a several hours vinegar bath, they look really nice. It darkens them a little, though not as dark as the darkest Seiyru, and makes the white veins really pop. Ordered another 25G kit. The only thing is you don't get any small chips but I think a hammer will give me that.


Did you actually get 37lbs or 21lbs? They list 37 lbs as the shipping weight but 21lbs as the product weight. Seems confusing.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

ahem said:


> Amazon has a seller reselling "Lifegard Aquatics 25G-Smoky Smoky Mountain Stone 25G Rock Kit,brown" for $54. I believe it is approximately 37 pounds of stone. I have not found a better deal than this after adding in shipping (I get "free" with Amazon prime). I wanted the Buceplant "boutique Seiryu" but with shipping it was a lot more per pound than this kit. So I took a chance bought one and am quite pleased with the stones. The large stone is about 10". They are not "brown" as the title says. They are grey though some have a small amount of brown mineral swirled in. After a several hours vinegar bath, they look really nice. It darkens them a little, though not as dark as the darkest Seiyru, and makes the white veins really pop. Ordered another 25G kit. The only thing is you don't get any small chips but I think a hammer will give me that.


A muriatic acid bath will darken them more, but be sure to read up on it. Bubbling acid, fumes, etc. can be a bit hazardous.


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## platipus (Jul 19, 2020)

Jeff5614 said:


> A muriatic acid bath will darken them more, but be sure to read up on it. Bubbling acid, fumes, etc. can be a bit hazardous.



Many many many many years ago (in this galaxy), I was the "pool guy" for a homeowner's association. My boss (who should have known better) and I decided to clean the grungy concrete back stairwell of the common area with a muriatic acid wash as an alternative to a good scrubbing. The fumes from that day still haunt me. Treat it like it is molten lava and have a plan and materials at the ready to deal with a spill or a splash if you ever decide to use it for any purpose. 





plat.


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## mourip (Mar 15, 2020)

jellopuddinpop said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I have a question RE: hardscape that I need opinions on. I’m going to be moving and rescaping my 125G tank, and decided on Seiryu Stone. I bought 180 lbs of stone, and made very specific notes to the seller that I needed at least 2-3 very large stones in order to create an aquascape in a tank this large. I would have thought that this was possible with the size of the order I was placing. I just received my shipment yesterday, and there was nothing in the boxes over 10” in any dimension, and most stones were under 6". Is this normal for Seiryu stone? Did I make a mistake, and this is normally just a smaller stone?
> 
> ...


Most of the great aquascapes that I see on YouTube are made by gluing a number of smaller stones together. In a way it gives you more flexibility and creative options. With a bit of ingenuity I am sure that you will get a great outcome...

Here is a remarkable example.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

jsvand5 said:


> Did you actually get 37lbs or 21lbs? They list 37 lbs as the shipping weight but 21lbs as the product weight. Seems confusing.


Giving a little thought to how and what it takes to ship really dense things like rock may help as it does go different than things that are less dense or have no sharp points. Rocks tend to be hard to ship because they do take more care and heavy weight packaging to keep them from tearing the package apart. So the difference may simply be the wooden crate it takes to ship the rock? :wink2:

When thinking of using a strong acid, I now use an item called "Acid Magic" instead of the real thing and find it does wonders without lots of the downside and hazards. 
https://www.wildwestpoolsupplies.co...i-oBoP9MnvLMT7B5j39q4Ynqd2OkjMBRoCKjEQAvD_BwE


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## jsvand5 (Aug 26, 2012)

PlantedRich said:


> jsvand5 said:
> 
> 
> > Did you actually get 37lbs or 21lbs? They list 37 lbs as the shipping weight but 21lbs as the product weight. Seems confusing.
> ...


They don’t ship in a crate apparently. I was reading a few of the questions on the listing and the seller says he sends anywhere from 23 pounds up to 37 pounds. Seems a little odd to not have a standard weight when you charge a set price.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

jsvand5 said:


> They don’t ship in a crate apparently. I was reading a few of the questions on the listing and the seller says he sends anywhere from 23 pounds up to 37 pounds. Seems a little odd to not have a standard weight when you charge a set price.


That is very odd since they purchase by weight not number of stones. You can easily ship those weights in USPS flat rate boxes, which are far cheaper than going by the actual weight.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Yes, sounds like they fit as many stones in the box as space allows and do not worry the point of how much weight as it costs the same to ship. It is often true that smaller lots more smaller stone can be packed in the same space to weight more than larger stones which may weight less due to the open space left between the stone. 
I find this true in buying large landscape rocks where we buy it by the pound but when choosing, we fill a large container. We often think the container is full but when we weight to pay pre pound it may be less than when we pick smaller rocks which fit together tighter.


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## misterdom (Aug 6, 2020)

Try contacting Houston Manzanita, they can get stones that are 10-12". I exchanged a few notes with them and they can send pictures of the stones before completing the sale. https://houstonmanzanita.com/

Ultimately I bought my seiryu locally from Aqua Forest Aquarium in San Francisco. The two largest pieces I have are 11.5". You might want to try calling them to see if they have anything larger. https://aquaforestaquarium.com/ After buying the rocks in store and arriving home, we realized we needed extra small stones for filler and shaping. I ordered a 5 lb bag of extra small stones from them and they shipped very quickly. 

I had thought about gluing these larger pieces to other stones to build them up but due to the weight of the stone there is a concern that the glue will not hold and the rocks will come apart and damage the tank glass. In addition, the seiryu we have does not have many flat surface areas which appear to be one of the conditions for gluing larger pieces together.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

misterdom said:


> ...After buying the rocks in store and arriving home, we realized we needed extra small stones for filler and shaping...


That's a good point. If you end up with too many larger stones you can break them up. Using myself as an example, I ordered 150 pounds of seiryu and let the seller know the tank size and that I would like a few larger pieces, but of course wanted a good variety in size. Most of what I received were of the larger size which I thought was great until I started placing them in the tank and realized I could use more smaller stones for filling and shaping as mentioned above, not to mention propping up larger stones. So I had to get out the sledge hammer which worked well making smaller stones from the larger ones.


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## ahem (Dec 27, 2014)

jsvand5 said:


> Did you actually get 37lbs or 21lbs? They list 37 lbs as the shipping weight but 21lbs as the product weight. Seems confusing.


Definitely more like 37 pounds. Yes I noticed the 21lbs too before I bought but some folks answered that they got 37 (or so).

Bump:


Jeff5614 said:


> A muriatic acid bath will darken them more, but be sure to read up on it. Bubbling acid, fumes, etc. can be a bit hazardous.


I'm not sure that is the case. I am not a chemist but as far as I can tell, acid simply dissolves anything on the outside of the rock where new carbonate/calcium mineral deposits obviously end up that then obscure the full color of the base rock. It does not "stain" the stone in anyway. So the end color is whatever is beneath the mineralized outer layer of the stone. I think a vinegar soak for hours is the same as a muriatic acid soak for minutes. And online, everyone doing the muriatic acid soak makes a huge ugly foaming mess. So I can wait a few hours or overnight for vinegar to do its thing than bother with toxic foaming chems. 

I did order some 40% vinegar (8x concentrated vinegar - 40% acid) on Amazon. That works faster than regular vinegar and is actually more cost effective. What I found is that after a certain amount of time, the stones get no darker. For the stones I got on Amazon, that was about 2-4 hours. Some stones had more deposits on them and I let them go until I got a grey rock with stark white veins through it and a few streaks of brown and green. Again, I think it just takes you to the base coloration of the stone removing the most recent carbonate minerals that obscure the full color.


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## ahem (Dec 27, 2014)

jsvand5 said:


> They don’t ship in a crate apparently. I was reading a few of the questions on the listing and the seller says he sends anywhere from 23 pounds up to 37 pounds. Seems a little odd to not have a standard weight when you charge a set price.


They shrink wrap each rock in plastic and my order came double boxed. Stones were in a tough inner box, which was then inside an Amazon box.

This picture is (2) kits ~ $110 in stone. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07J4S58Y3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

They call them "25G" for "25 Gallon" kits. So I think that is how they get around publishing an exact weight. The second kit I did not really get a "large" stone. Just extra mediums. Doesn't matter to me as I am probably making a rock mound kind of scape.

These have all been acid washed.


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## RANIME13 (Sep 29, 2020)

pantherspawn said:


> Where does one order large quantities of stone? I can only find the smaller pieces on Amazon for 17lbs, or 5 and 10 lb increments from random online retailers.


 You could use some clear silicone to 'glue' several pieces together and possibly achieve a better look than a large piece of natural stone.


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## jsvand5 (Aug 26, 2012)

ahem said:


> jsvand5 said:
> 
> 
> > They don’t ship in a crate apparently. I was reading a few of the questions on the listing and the seller says he sends anywhere from 23 pounds up to 37 pounds. Seems a little odd to not have a standard weight when you charge a set price.
> ...


I went with two packs as well for my 50g cube. Rock does look nice after an acid bath but it is killing my parameters for sure. I do water changes with RO water that is remineralized to 4GH and 0 kh. After 4 days I measure 10+ GH and 7-8 KH. Was hoping to have Crystal red shrimp in this tank but it looks like that plan is out. I have resorted to dosing seachems acid buffer to keep the params at least closer to acceptable and do 50% water changes every 4 days. Wishing I would have went with something else for the hard scape because I’m sure I’ll get lazy after a few months.


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## ahem (Dec 27, 2014)

jsvand5 said:


> I went with two packs as well for my 50g cube. Rock does look nice after an acid bath but it is killing my parameters for sure. I do water changes with RO water that is remineralized to 4GH and 0 kh. After 4 days I measure 10+ GH and 7-8 KH. Was hoping to have Crystal red shrimp in this tank but it looks like that plan is out. I have resorted to dosing seachems acid buffer to keep the params at least closer to acceptable and do 50% water changes every 4 days. Wishing I would have went with something else for the hard scape because I’m sure I’ll get lazy after a few months.


Hmm. My water is somewhat hard out of the tap. The Seiryu has been less of an effect for me and appears to have slowed down. After water change my water starts at 12dGH and 5dKH. After a few days it may drift to 13-14dGH and 6dKH. I have not measured it higher. I have been keeping a boatload of RCS and a handful of Amano. They appear healthy behavior wise and appearance although I do find dead RCS infrequently.

My hypothesis is that the Seiryu effect is enhanced the more acidic your water is, so I wonder if buffering it higher will arrest the dissolution of the stone (it dissolves in weak acid and may not dissolve at all in > 7ph water ... hypothetically).


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Depends also on how much you have in there.  In my 3 footer (only 12 Gal) I have around 18 lbs of Seiryu. My tap is usually around kh 4 and the tank ends up with kh 12, before water change. Lately I've been a little lax on the water changes and the other day my kh was 16, up from the 4 tap. My tank is around 18 months old and still going strong. i have a strong breeding colony of RCS and they seem unaffected.


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## ahem (Dec 27, 2014)

Asteroid said:


> Depends also on how much you have in there. In my 3 footer (only 12 Gal) I have around 18 lbs of Seiryu. My tap is usually around kh 4 and the tank ends up with kh 12, before water change. Lately I've been a little lax on the water changes and the other day my kh was 16, up from the 4 tap. My tank is around 18 months old and still going strong. i have a strong breeding colony of RCS and they seem unaffected.


Wow that is a big rise. How long between water changes? I have a lot of Seiryu in my tank. I will guess 30-40lbs. When I first set up I didn't water change for two weeks. GH was up around 16, kh might have been 7. I've been doing weekly ~50% with little 5-10% changes during the week as I feel like it. It seems like my rise is slowing down.

What is your ph out of the tap?


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

ahem said:


> Wow that is a big rise. How long between water changes? I have a lot of Seiryu in my tank. I will guess 30-40lbs. When I first set up I didn't water change for two weeks. GH was up around 16, kh might have been 7. I've been doing weekly ~50% with little 5-10% changes during the week as I feel like it. It seems like my rise is slowing down.
> 
> What is your ph out of the tap?


I have always done at least weekly 50% wc, but lately I missed a few. I don't think the effect will ever slow down until a good portion of the rock dissolves and that would be a very, very long time, far longer than you would have the setup. My ph out of tap is around 7.5


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## jsvand5 (Aug 26, 2012)

I’m going to stop using the GH+ for water changes and just use straight RO water. Tank should be fine for cherry shrimp but Crystal reds won’t likely work. I can do water changes in about 15 mins so it’s not too big of a deal. Sucks that I’d have to basically rip the entire tank apart to switch out the rocks. I think I have about 80lbs overall in a 50g cube.


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