# Taiwan bee grading guide?



## Puddles (Jan 5, 2013)

Is there any sort of picture guide for taiwan bees? I mean the basics are easy but sometimes I wonder if a certain shrimp is a nice panda or a poor bkk, or same with the rubies. I think I heard there is one in the back of breeders n keepers but does anyone know of one online?


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## bostoneric (Sep 7, 2011)




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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

yep that is the best there is thanks again for creating this wonderful chart rah-bop


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## Subtletanks91 (May 29, 2013)

Haha I've seen this chart so many times in the last three months. It would be nice with actual pictures of the shrimp though, so from the looks of it if you cross golden or Snow White bee with King Kong or wine red you get red bolt or blue bolt??


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

Subtletanks91 said:


> Haha I've seen this chart so many times in the last three months. It would be nice with actual pictures of the shrimp though, so from the looks of it if you cross golden or Snow White bee with King Kong or wine red you get red bolt or blue bolt??



No a red bolt is a mutation of a bb per say. There is no real formula to get one. There is discussion about a bb and a rb even being a tb but a Snow White mutation.


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## Subtletanks91 (May 29, 2013)

Ok so I'm looking at the chart wrong then. I understand it now though because the arrow is pointing towards bb and rb and there both not even in the tb box. IDE love to see a white King Kong. How do you get the blueish hue from a King Kong to create shadow pandas. And what breeds together to even get green hulks of blue jelly


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

They are all mutations so there is no breed this with this or cross this to that to get desired resluts. It is all a gamble and when you get desired ones you seperate them and breed for that trait.


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## bostoneric (Sep 7, 2011)

this was made before pintos and mosura grade bkk/wr. 

things change fast!


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## Subtletanks91 (May 29, 2013)

What was the original tb that all these mutations came from. And what crossed to create that tb. Tb aren't crystals. And there not tigers. Or tibees. So were the heck they came from. I'm trying to understand the origin of these guys


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

Mutaion from a crystal.... That is how TB all started. They came from your CRS CBS as a start.


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## Subtletanks91 (May 29, 2013)

So they are basicaly crystals that have been bred for these colors and mutations.


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

Not breed for colors a actual mutation that happened. That cause the TB color and genes. Happened around the same time in germany and Taiwna. You can google it and you will find the 2 that found the mutation


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## Subtletanks91 (May 29, 2013)

Ok I'll do it when I get back from some errands. Thank you


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Actually, from what I've researched Taiwans came to be by tibee breeders letting their tanks run rampant Even Monika Poehler has shown some blue bolts that have popped out of her tibee tanks that have never had any form of a 'Taiwan' in them.


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

That could happen seeing a tibee would carry crs genes which intern crated the tb. But everything I have ever read and seen where they were created out of a mutation from the bee shrimp may it have been crs CBS. Orfisherhunter had a posted that states the female that found the mutation and I think he even had the German person too


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

I believe Imke did an article on it before she pulled her site.


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## Subtletanks91 (May 29, 2013)

Seems as though there is controversy on where they came from. How do you guys find the sites and this info at.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Subtletanks91 said:


> Seems as though there is controversy on where they came from. How do you guys find the sites and this info at.



Hahaha, LOTS of googling and lots of translating pages Crustahunter is a good start, then you can hit other sites from there, translate, etc.


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

This chart is a bit confusing as to which can breed with which to produce (...)

So Tigers CAN'T breed with Taiwan Bees directly right? What happens if a Tiger breed with Hybrids?


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## Rock Island (May 29, 2013)

Has anyone got a really hi res version of this? I've got one that's 1500x981, but I'd like to find a really big one and run off a copy on the plotter at work. It's so beautiful, it'd make a great poster for my office. I can't even imagine my coworkers reactions. "What the heck am I looking at?"


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

MsNemoShrimp said:


> This chart is a bit confusing as to which can breed with which to produce (...)
> 
> So Tigers CAN'T breed with Taiwan Bees directly right? What happens if a Tiger breed with Hybrids?


every thing on this chart will cross breed with each other


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

Rock Island said:


> Has anyone got a really hi res version of this? I've got one that's 1500x981, but I'd like to find a really big one and run off a copy on the plotter at work. It's so beautiful, it'd make a great poster for my office. I can't even imagine my coworkers reactions. "What the heck am I looking at?"


you can click the bar across the top to make it bigger or you can search the shrimp secion for "threads started by rah-bop"


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## bostoneric (Sep 7, 2011)

thats about as big as you'll find with google.


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## Rock Island (May 29, 2013)

That's what I thought. Thanks Eric.


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

If everything on the chart can crossbreed, what happens when you breed a Royal Blue Tiger with a Wine Red? A shrimp with red, white and blue and call it the "American Shrimp"? Lol

All joking aside, it would be difficult, if not impossible to breed those two because Wine Reds like 5.5 pH, KH 0 GH 4 while RBs like 7.5 pH, KH 4 GH 8. They wouldn't be able to live in the same tank let alone breed in it


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## Subtletanks91 (May 29, 2013)

This all depends on the breeders tank parameters too though,


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

most keep tb in the low 6 range ph wise along with alot of the tigers are kept in low ph as well. the thing with most crosses done using tigers is it takes several generations before you start seeing something cool come out of it


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## Subtletanks91 (May 29, 2013)

So for the f1 you cross tiger and tb say. For f2 you use f1 and a tb or tiger?


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

I have raised Tigers at a lot pH like at a 6 before, but they never breed and slowly die off


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

I have to find the reference. I think the B&K #1 mentioned that TB came from tiger x crs... Give me a day to two to find the blurb.


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

yeah ive heard that theory as well as they are just a mutation. i dont think any one is 100% sure where they came from. and who ever had them first isnt talking lol


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

The links on this thread don't work but it is where it was discusses, and in other articles I have read and from breeders I have asked, it is widely accepted as a crs CBS mutation

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=186221


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

The Germans I've spoken with widely accept it as a tibee mutation. It's not a contest No real need in arguing, I don't know for a fact one way or another I'm only going off what I've read. And until we link those actual articles we are just discussing anyway. Soothing sent me a great article about blue bolts originating from tibees but I'm trying to find the article right now. The *look* can probably occur a variety of different ways, the genetics may play a different role entirely. I have had a lot of people ask if my super tiger tibees are C grade CBS. I've likewise had people ask me if my C grade CRS are tibees. Many goldens are so rosy red they look like red bolts. Many goldens have a blue tint that makes them look like low grade blue bolts. Until I have a blue bolt pop out of my tibee tank I'm not going to state anything factually Likewise, when I have a Wine Red or Ruby red pop out of my CRS tank.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

http://www.crustahunter.com/tibees-von-monika-pohler/

Again, shrimp that look like blue bolts or red bolts but are tibee crosses. Yes, bee shrimp is there but still tibee not straight up bee shrimp. Just saying, think out of the box In *theory* it might look like the Midnight Prince came from a bunch of CBS crossing. It didn't.


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## Subtletanks91 (May 29, 2013)

Why can't there be a website that has these german articles already translated to English?!?!


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

here is a google translation:

by Monika Pöhler
0
November 16, 2012
by Momo

written by Ulli Bauer

Monika Pöhler occupied since his 4 years with the intersection of tiger prawns with bees . Through consistent selective breeding they came over time to amazing results. She was kind enough to answer a few questions.

wtb

White Tibees ( Photo: Chris Lukhaup )

Monika has among other blue - black animals bred with white markings , which she calls midnight prince. The partially red eye color is an interesting side effect of selection.

midnight- prince prince1midnight - black- tibee

CH : How did you get this color variation ?

M: Since early 2008 I have been breeding the black shrimp. First, I have selected on solid black or blue color , later the white markings were added. Among the solid color distribution has indeed suffered partly something, but I took pleasure in buying ; the complete pigmentation of shrimp can indeed again a breeding goal sein.Diese line is something special , because I can not quite deny a longtime bees influence. It is therefore no longer a simple black tiger shrimp. Meanwhile, they are 80 to 90 % erbfest several features which I personally attach great importance . The midnight prince prove robust and prolific . There are in this line different characteristics and qualities. The better ones now fall more frequently and my breeding goal come quite close, I would like to raise in the " nobility " .

detail -black- cock - tibee 1black -tiger- bee -2

CH : Fallen at the Prince still " more typical " Tibees , or the animals are pure dark ?

M: When the prince will be no more "typical" Tibiformen , or have so far fallen there. They are just for the most part tigers. But this I must say , even if I am alone so that I think black tiger anyway for Tiger with a little black bee . There were earlier only other Tiger forms. The princes are more blue than black. There are next to the prince still "normal" black and blue solid - OE Tiger.Nach a younger backcross with a Tibi (including red portion) falls recently even a different color.

shadow- term bee - bee 1shadow - term

One small thing that I think is important: the princes have not yet this gene or the gene mutation that the shrimp is always fully colored. But I assume that this " Vollgefärbtsein gene" may well be come from the Black- OE Tiger and therefore with a bit of luck also could still occur with me.

black -and-white - tigerbee

CH : How did the late Prince reproduce it?

M: The Prince proliferate well in my opinion . It may well be that the pup rate is still very increase could if you would operate similar high effort , as for Hochzuchtbees . This I reject for me (! ) Because I do not go on quantity alone but put emphasis on beautiful but sturdy animals. This has a very pragmatic reason : One has a life apart from the prawns and therefore the attitude for me at all love must be simple and practical bleiben.Ich keep the animals in rain water at the following values ​​: Ph 6.8-7.2 - KH0 - 3-100 microseconds

Another interesting color variation are the animals that called Monika " Snow Shrimp " .

tibee -bleeding -heart- typustuerkis - white - tibee

CH : Have you ever tried to breed a Schneegarnele with a red bee?

M: The " shrimp snow fall from the " White Tiger " breed , so red bee is already with them in it. A backcross is conceivable and in some cases even durchgeführt.Bei the snow shrimp degree I find most interesting is that they are " colorful " are in . So red AND blue pigments on the cheeks and head zusammen.Und course, I also find the exciting, the turquoise / green blue pigments haben.Aber are still very fresh , plus I can not say anything further , I must still observe something .

Other exciting color forms ...

monika - poehler - 71ablue -tiger- prussian -blue - pink tiger bee dark brown - white - tiger bee

All images ( unless otherwise indicated ) : Monika Poehl


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

BTW, I just went through the B&K #1 and found the article that had some very compelling evidence that TB is from the TiB hybrids is written by Monika Pohler. Shadow shrimp, KK, etc. She asserts that snow whites are also from having TiB somewhere in the background.

if you haven't gotten your B&K, it really is the best mag in offered in the US right now, IMHO.


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## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

When the 1st taiwan bee came out from Fu Shrimp farm, they stated the mutation came from a tank full of CRS, CBS, and Golden. Now guys are saying this isn't exactly true, and it came from Tibee?


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

One of or.if not the first to report this mutation was silaine and he said his came from crs CBS snow white. He is in taiwan, there are just 2 opinions. The reason I follow the crs theory is this hobby originated out of Taiwan and the Pacific and Germans got into it importing from there. So I always look to the original source for the best info

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## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

sbarbee54 said:


> One of or.if not the first to report this mutation was silaine and he said his came from crs CBS snow white. He is in taiwan, there are just 2 opinions. The reason I follow the crs theory is this hobby originated out of Taiwan and the Pacific and Germans got into it importing from there. So I always look to the original source for the best info
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


I followed that theory too - that's why it was called TAIWAN bee. 

Silane is very knowledgable, but it was mention that he was like 3 generations behind the breeders. Is he in Taiwan? I always thought he was in Singapore.


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## bostoneric (Sep 7, 2011)

"Silane" is in Taiwan. great guy, full of helpful info!


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

Darn spell check changed his name. Like bostoneric said he is in taiwan and was part of fu shrimps when the mutation was found I believe or right there after became part of fu

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