# Black brush algea



## NWA-Planted (Aug 27, 2011)

Possibly the most dreaded, annoying algea to get rid of... Dose excel, spot treat with hydrogen peroxide and prune, also crank up your co2!

All this helps but as always you want to identify the root cause! after dealing with it in my own tank and never getting a real break or headway until now I really started wondering what the heck is different! 

I have no proof other than what I have observed, but co2 consistency seems to be the most important factor with this stuff! started running my co2 all day and night turning the bubble count down.... Low and behold it began going away. even crazier is my co2 has been out of commission for roughly 2 weeks and the BBA has not grown more and has even gone away some more! which further leads me to believe its more the fluctuation of co2 than just not enough that causes it to grow. this can be very problematic in tanks that are densely planted due to the co2 build up at night vs usage during the day. hopefully I am explaining my thoughts correctly.. I just think its bizarre that if low co2 really is the cause it should have blossomed while my system was down.

Just some interesting observations and wanted to share!

125 gallon, moderately planted
Sump filter setup
Pressurized co2

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## dthb4438 (Nov 12, 2007)

I had a horrible problem with bba, blue-green algae and the like. I also had holes starting in my snails shells. I stopped the C02 altogether and everything has turned out 1000% better. Maybe it's just my system set-up that was messed up but I am watching for the next couple of months to see what happens next. The snails shells have healed since.


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## NWA-Planted (Aug 27, 2011)

dthb4438 said:


> I had a horrible problem with bba, blue-green algae and the like. I also had holes starting in my snails shells. I stopped the C02 altogether and everything has turned out 1000% better. Maybe it's just my system set-up that was messed up but I am watching for the next couple of months to see what happens next. The snails shells have healed since.


bizarre isn't it!?

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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I have come to believe tanks go through an algae phase when newly set up, and any algae in the the tank at the time can flourish dramatically. But once you get the tank passed that stage, the algae just can't get a foothold like it did before.

I've recently seen this with my 90g and I'm now seeing it with my 75g. When I changed my 90g from a cichlid tank to a planted tank, I nuked it with bleach to sterilize it. Even though I had ran that tank for years with the same lighting and all, the tank went through a horrible algae phase. All sorts of algae appeared, including BBA. I was busy at the time so I didn't pay much attention to the tank so even green water started taking over. I nuked the tank with H2O2 and a week later, it was pristine. Even though I have not changed a thing, the algae has not returned.

I'm now seeing this same pattern emerge with my 75g. I broke it down and also nuked it with bleach. It's been about a month or two, and the tank is breaking out with algae. I just nuked it with H2O2 yesterday. I'm running the same settings as I had run on that tank before so I know the lighting, ferts, and CO2 is well adjusted. I feel very certain that the H2O2 will kill the algae and it will not return.

There seems to be something that happens as a tank matures that affects algae. It's not a matter of the tank cycling since in both cases, the tanks were cycled at the time. There just seems to be something else that happens. Once the tank passes that point, you can get away with a whole lot of things without the algae coming back.

I've also seen this with my two 29g tanks. One of the tanks started out as a 20L with plants only in it. I could radically prune the plants without any problems. But if I was to do that to a newly setup tank, it would throw it into algae city!

I don't know what it is about mature tanks that affects algae, but I've come to believe there is definitely something there.


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## In.a.Box (Dec 8, 2011)

after dosing 40-50ML of h202 my BBG still looking alive.
Spot treat here and there but doesnt see any improve.
I jack up the co2 up till i cant count BPS, turn off 2 of my CFL light still nothing.
add a powerhead and all it do is push my plant to the right.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Well, you know my radical treatment idea. I get my hands slapped for dare speaking it out loud, but darn it, it works.

Rather than repeat it, you can read it here in this post: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1915176&postcount=34

I just did it to my 75g tank yesterday (dosed 300ml H2O2). Different algae, but same results. As long as the algae can be killed by H2O2, then this will work. However, be sure to note the risks involved.


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## jstehman (Dec 13, 2010)

@nwa-planted/ did you alter any of your lighting (intensity, duration) or ferts as well or just CO2?


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## NWA-Planted (Aug 27, 2011)

The lighting hadn't really changed, I did back off the fertz a little since I was not injecting co2 at the time. I say it didn't really change as prior to my co2 going out (as in at least a month) the lighting was more intense. 

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## herns (May 6, 2008)

NWA-Planted said:


> Possibly the most dreaded, annoying algea to get rid of... Dose excel, spot treat with hydrogen peroxide and prune, also crank up your co2!
> 
> All this helps but as always you want to identify the root cause! after dealing with it in my own tank and never getting a real break or headway until now I really started wondering what the heck is different!
> 
> ...



I agree that CO2 fluctuation often cause BBA to appear. It happens most on DIY CO2.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Hmmm. Co2 is the cause on BBa. Interesting. I think sewingalot mentioned this; it has more to do with the pH swing that triggers BBa.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I'm not so sure. I first got BBA when I bought some anubias with BBA on them. In my innocence, I thought I could kill it before putting it in my tank. Instead, I killed the anubias and infected my tank with BBA.

At the time, I was running injected CO2 on a pH controller. So my CO2 and pH were very stable, day and night. I eventually learned how to increase the CO2 to the point of stressing the fish and brought it down one tiny notch. That's what helped stop the BBA.

However, I have had traces of BBA in all my tanks ever since. It doesn't grow rampant in any of my tanks because they are stable. Some have injected CO2, some have no carbon source at all. As long as the tank is stable, I only get a small trace of BBA in a few places, but nothing really noticeable.

The tank that had the original BBA problem was a fairly new setup which still fits with my hypothesis that new setups are more algae prone that mature setups with all other things being equal.


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## In.a.Box (Dec 8, 2011)

I also starting to think its co2 that cause Bba.
Maybe it is, maybe its 80% is. I do run 2 air stone in the tank.


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## NWA-Planted (Aug 27, 2011)

Complexity said:


> I'm not so sure. I first got BBA when I bought some anubias with BBA on them. In my innocence, I thought I could kill it before putting it in my tank. Instead, I killed the anubias and infected my tank with BBA.
> 
> At the time, I was running injected CO2 on a pH controller. So my CO2 and pH were very stable, day and night. I eventually learned how to increase the CO2 to the point of stressing the fish and brought it down one tiny notch. That's what helped stop the BBA.
> 
> ...


my original 55 gallon didn't get bba until I was gone two weeks on training and even longer without co2, big swings at night as the tank was so densely planted.

All the way prior never saw any :-/

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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

So is it the fluctuation of CO2 or simply a drop in CO2? Perhaps fluctuating CO2 drops long enough to allow BBA to get a foothold? In that case, low CO2 is the root cause.


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## NWA-Planted (Aug 27, 2011)

Complexity said:


> So is it the fluctuation of CO2 or simply a drop in CO2? Perhaps fluctuating CO2 drops long enough to allow BBA to get a foothold? In that case, low CO2 is the root cause.


I think it is more of a consistency problem. like in my 55 when the co2 was stopped the swing from night time co2 levels to daytime co2 levels there was a drastic swing.

Kinda the flip flop in my current tank the co2 would drop considerably at night (due to Sump) and then ramp back up in the morning.

However with out running co2 day and night in my tank were pretty consistent I imagine due to the constant water turbulence from the Sump and then injecting co2 24/7 at a reduced amount I also noticed the bba dieing off some.

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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

So what accounts for my tank breaking out with BBA when the CO2 was being kept at a stable level by a pH controller?


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## NWA-Planted (Aug 27, 2011)

Complexity said:


> So what accounts for my tank breaking out with BBA when the CO2 was being kept at a stable level by a pH controller?


thats a good question, but then i had that 55 that never had it till way down the road. 

Really doesn't have a rhyme or reason almost... Its definitely a pain to get rid of!

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## alohamonte (Jul 25, 2006)

I'm getting BBA in a new tank just the last few days, tank is less than a month old. It's appearing in the tips of the leaves of the tallest plants - ones closest to the light source. No c02. I have ottos and nerites so hoping this all just works itself out.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

alohamonte said:


> No c02. I have ottos and nerites so hoping this all just works itself out.


I hate to be the one to tell you, but it won't. BBA _never_ works itself out, especially if you don't have CO2. Nerites and otos won't touch the stuff.


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## sepehr (Oct 6, 2010)

No matter what you do, BBA is going to appear sooner or later. I've had it in low & high tech tanks, CO2 injected & carbon free tanks and also mature tanks. The root causes could be so many and also complex. Perhaps we could find a cure for it before we land on Mars.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

sepehr said:


> Perhaps we could find a cure for it before we land on Mars.


I doubt it. It's more likely we'll find that Mars is covered in the red form of BBA, explaining the red coloring of the planet. :icon_lol:


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## DrGonzo (Apr 12, 2012)

I never had a bad case of bba until in added co2. It would only grow on the tips of my spiralis that were closest to the light and I would trim and it would be fine. Now with co2 its spreading to my dw and the rest of my plants.
I have a 5# tank and ph controller and a single t5ho over a 75 right on top.
Wish I could figure out how to get rid of it. Can only keep it somewhat at bay with h2o2.


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## sepehr (Oct 6, 2010)

DrGonzo said:


> I never had a bad case of bba until in added co2. It would only grow on the tips of my spiralis that were closest to the light and I would trim and it would be fine. Now with co2 its spreading to my dw and the rest of my plants.
> I have a 5# tank and ph controller and a single t5ho over a 75 right on top.
> Wish I could figure out how to get rid of it. Can only keep it somewhat at bay with h2o2.


Maybe that explains why the people at my LFS are able to keep anubias and moss BBA free in their low light, no CO2, no ferts tanks and when it comes to keeping aquatic plants, they haven't got a clue. On the other hand, I've had planted tanks for over 3 years now and I still haven't figuered out how to keep anubias & moss algae free in the long run no matter what I do.

You can get rid of CO2 and cut down on ferts & lights but then again you could risk losing your more demanding plants. This has happened to me also.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Light is what drives all plant/algae growth, so using less light will always make it less likely that BBA will become a problem. Good tank maintenance habits combined with less light gives you an even better chance to avoid BBA. But, once it starts, it is like your unemployed brother in law who moved in. It stays!

We have sent enough probes to Mars now that it can almost be guaranteed that Mars will soon be the black planet. We are a litterbug civilization, after all. (However, BBA is actually a red algae -it just looks black)


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## NWA-Planted (Aug 27, 2011)

Some of the comments in this are cracking me up.

The other interesting thing is that all algea is in the water column to, just waiting.... For the right time to strike!

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## In.a.Box (Dec 8, 2011)

My Bba is slowly dying even since my co2 ran out which was 1 week + ago. I see less on the rock and tip of my plants. I also stop dosing the EI since I ran out of co2. I still keep 3 light on.
So the big question is, is it co2?


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## NWA-Planted (Aug 27, 2011)

In.a.Box said:


> My Bba is slowly dying even since my co2 ran out which was 1 week + ago. I see less on the rock and tip of my plants. I also stop dosing the EI since I ran out of co2. I still keep 3 light on.
> So the big question is, is it co2?


keep us updated on it! curious to see how yours goes!

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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I don't think CO2 will cause BBA. Your experience is interesting, but puzzling.


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## In.a.Box (Dec 8, 2011)

i Just add the co2 back yeserday with a new filter(odyssea)
should start dosing EI on monday again.
i also raise the light up 3inch.

will report back in a couple week


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## funkjosh (Feb 22, 2010)

my plant growth looks great. however, bba and green dust algae is growing on everything except plants. glass, filter, powerhead, etc. algae growth is very gradual. i just raised my light a wee bit and i think im going to pull back on dosing since my tank is not heavily planted yet. i keep co2 in the green which creates pearling on some of my plants.


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## In.a.Box (Dec 8, 2011)

Reporting back in.

Check the tank and guess what o found?
Bba yep Bba is kicking back in. Been 16 days since I post.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Any ideas what may be allowing it to grow back in?


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## In.a.Box (Dec 8, 2011)

Not really sure what's causing it.
I'm shooting 1 bps.
I have ton of water movement at 800gph on that tank.
2 filter, 1 power air with air stone.
With all that I still see greenish(drop checker)


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Sounds like you're not doing enough CO2. Try to increase the CO2 until the drop check has some yellow in it. Or you can keep raising it until the fish are gasping, then drop the CO2 back down a notch. I do this very slowly so I can see how the fish handle it day and night. You may need to pull the air stone out if it's gassing off too much CO2. Or just raise your BPS count.

How are your plants growing? Any other problems? Any other algae?


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

I have finally beat the scourage of my life, BBA. I know, exaggerated...

I set up a 57 gallon a year ago and had been fighting BBA up until now. I was dumb founded because I had a 46 Bow front for years, working well, algae well controlled. So, I thought i had it figured out. Anyway, transferred plants, substrate, lights, filter without cleaning and bingo. A year long fight with bba. I even had thread algae and never had that before. But that just needs a toothbrush.

I have to agree that any new tank seems to have to "break in" and, that requires fighting whatever algae happens to be present in the surroundings. As far as the "break in" period taking me a year, that's probably from not leaving the needle valve(CO2) alone. I would tweak the CO2 higher until the fish gills started moving faster then, tweak it back. Since I was also experimenting with different diffusion methods requiring higher or lower working pressures, this meant further tweaking.

When i finally settled on my favored diffusion method and working pressure, adjusted needle valve to the current bubble count and...left the needle valve alone for several weeks, I finally saw the BBA diminish. Of course you know, you have to physically remove the existing BBA because it won't go away on its own. Leave CO2 levels ultra stable, and you will see it not come back.

I think I have found, if you tweak that needle valve, even if the drop checker stays yellow through the changes, the change will cause the BBA to appear. My guess is experienced people get it less because, they have a standard recipe for their CO2, lighting and fertilization methods that they repeat from one tank to another. If you are tweaking this and that to find the magic combination, the changes signal the BBA to flourish.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

In.a.Box said:


> Not really sure what's causing it.
> I'm shooting 1 bps.
> I have ton of water movement at 800gph on that tank.
> 2 filter, 1 power air with air stone.
> With all that I still see greenish(drop checker)


There are a lot of variables there. 1bps could be putting practially nothing in the tank, with the air stone, and good surface agitation, depending on your diffusion method. What are you using to diffuse co2. What do you have causing surface agitation, and what are you dosing.


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## In.a.Box (Dec 8, 2011)

Before I was doing bps to the point you can't count.
The dc show greenish yellow, with that there was more Bba in the tank.
After cutting the co2 off for 2 week the Bba start to die off.
Adding the co2 back this time with 1bps for 2 week already Bba has start showing again.

I'm dosing EI, I'm using a reactor.


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## inkslinger (Dec 28, 2003)

Just a quick question! When you turn up the co2 to get your drop checker green or green/yellow or when the fish are gasping , does anyone know what there ph would read.
{like a ph at 6.0 ?}


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

inkslinger said:


> Just a quick question! When you turn up the co2 to get your drop checker green or green/yellow or when the fish are gasping , does anyone know what there ph would read.
> {like a ph at 6.0 ?}


Depends on what your pH was before the CO2.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

DrGonzo said:


> I never had a bad case of bba until in added co2. It would only grow on the tips of my spiralis that were closest to the light and I would trim and it would be fine. Now with co2 its spreading to my dw and the rest of my plants.
> I have a 5# tank and ph controller and a single t5ho over a 75 right on top.
> Wish I could figure out how to get rid of it. Can only keep it somewhat at bay with h2o2.


i've rearely seen a thread were someone with a ph controller doesn't have algae. not that its not possible but the count keeps going up in my head

ph controllers have to see the change in ph before they turn on the solenoid, and c02 takes 15 minutes to change ph after being injected, likewise it takes about 15 minutes after turned off before carbonic acid starts lowering due to c02 off gassing, so its easy to see why without a very accurate and precise ph meter, you are geting c02 swings daily. all day long, BBA loves this sort of environment

i have no proof to back this up only my basic understanding of ph probes, but i do understand the relationship between c02 and ph changes and im using logic to work this out


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

inkslinger said:


> Just a quick question! When you turn up the co2 to get your drop checker green or green/yellow or when the fish are gasping , does anyone know what there ph would read.
> {like a ph at 6.0 ?}


I'll expound upon this, complexity is spot on, and also it depends on your oxygen and c02 ratio
more oxygen means you can have more c02 without gassing ur fish
being able to have good gas exchange through surface agitation allows you to inject more c02 becuase it will not build up to intolerable levels. gas exchange EVEN though its c02 is very important. for high tech tanks, the more light you have, the more c02 you need. you have to be able to inject a lot and circulate it through the tank, but to do that, you need to waste some so that again, it doesn't build up to intolerable levels.

what comes out of my output is far greater than the sum of concentration in my tank.

for example... figurative numbers here. my output is 1 inch I.D. with 334GPH output, lets say my concentration on output is 221 ppm but as it circulates through the tank is 62 ppm the actual tank concenration is 42 ppm or 10ppm at the base behind a mass of plants because of good surface agitation. so i am circulating a high amount but what is actaully dissolving and staying in suspension is lower

this is my fundamental understanding of c02 and agiation based on testing i've done on output flow and actual concentrations in different parts of the tank

the numbers wil vary from tank to tank, but the concept is the same


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Carbon dioxide is soluble in water, in which it reversibly converts to H2CO3 (carbonic acid).

The hydration equilibrium constant Kh (at 25 °C) of carbonic acid is [H2CO3]/[CO2] = 1.70×10−3: Hence, the majority of the carbon dioxide is not converted into carbonic acid, but remains as CO2 molecules not affecting the pH. It is an amphoteric substance that can act as an acid or as a base, depending on pH of the solution.

The relative concentrations of CO2, H2CO3, and the deprotonated forms HCO−
3 (bicarbonate) and CO2−
3(carbonate) depend on the pH. In neutral or slightly alkaline water (pH > 6.5), the bicarbonate form predominates (>50%) becoming the most prevalent (>95%) at the pH of seawater. In very alkaline water (pH > 10.4), the predominant (>50%) form is carbonate. The oceans, being mildly alkaline with typical pH = 8.2 – 8.5, contain about 120 mg of bicarbonate per liter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide
fwiw


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> i've rearely seen a thread were someone with a ph controller doesn't have algae. not that its not possible but the count keeps going up in my head


Well, I guess I can take that count back down a number. My 90g does not have BBA, and it's running off of a pH controller. I'm not having to treat it for BBA or any other algae (except for a touch of dust algae on the glass and some spot algae, neither CO2 related).

My 75g is also ran off of a pH controller and is only now showing any signs of BBA, but it's very mild. That tank is still going through the new tank syndrome so the BBA is no surprise. It's actually late in the game as I've been battling diatoms and other algae prior to seeing any BBA appear. I'm slowly inching the CO2 up to the yellow zone.

However, I've ran my 75g on that pH controller without any BBA problems before. I've also ran one of my 29g on a pH controller without any BBA problems.

With each tank, what I have experienced is an uptick of any and all possible algae starting about a month after the tank has begun (even though it's already cycled) which lasts until I can finally break the tank free and into a more mature mode. The more "high tech" the tank, the more pronounced this process (which basically means the more light, the more algae issues in the beginning). However, once I get the tank passed this algae phase, it then runs clear of algae problems.

The pH controller is not the changing element in these situations. It is the maturity of the tank. I cannot explain what's going on, but I've seen this repeated with my own tanks and with many of the people having algae issues.

I will also say that a pH controller is better able to maintain a stable CO2 level than any other method I've heard of. Even if there is a delay in pH reporting (which doesn't seem right from what I've experienced), we're talking about a fraction of a pH change. No other method can keep up with the dynamic changes of a tank with growing plants.

Injecting a stead flow of CO2 (2 bps, for example) is highly erratic when you take into account that the plants will use more CO2 during peak growth while not using any CO2 when not growing. This causes a day/night swing in CO2. Further, as a plant grows, it gets bigger which means it will use more CO2 than before. A tank full of rapidly growing plants can have a very large change in plant mass in just one week. So not only is there a day/night swing, but there's another swing going on between plant peak growth and prunings.

In both of these cases, the pH controller would register the changes in pH and would alter the CO2 dosage accordingly. This allows the pH controller to handle these day/night and growth/pruning changes dynamically by compensating as needed in order to maintain a stable CO2 level in the tank.

Only a pH controller can account for all these dynamic changes. So even if there is a 15 minute delay (which I still question), the pH controller is still better able to maintain a steady amount of CO2 in the tank than any other method available.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Is this the right one? 
Batrachospermum: [low power]
This alga is found in shaded areas of reservoirs that contain soft water. Batrachospermum will not live in
water that is constantly exposed to the sun. It lives only in cold water that has low levels of organic materials. Thus it is an indicator of "clean water." It creates a problem when large growths in irrigation canals slow the flow of water.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Complexity said:


> Well, I guess I can take that count back down a number. My 90g does not have BBA, and it's running off of a pH controller. I'm not having to treat it for BBA or any other algae (except for a touch of dust algae on the glass and some spot algae, neither CO2 related).
> 
> My 75g is also ran off of a pH controller and is only now showing any signs of BBA, but it's very mild. That tank is still going through the new tank syndrome so the BBA is no surprise. It's actually late in the game as I've been battling diatoms and other algae prior to seeing any BBA appear. I'm slowly inching the CO2 up to the yellow zone.
> 
> ...


 
IM SOOOOOOO GLAD to hear that. i've read too many stories of bba and ph controllers. they may not even be linked. just something i've associated

the PH swing is invariable. it does happen. the accuracy of the PH controller and probe will affect this

as bruce pointed out carbonic acid levels are relative to how much carbon dioxide is present in solution. c02 itself does not affect ph directly
it takes aoubt 15 minutes for either gas to be added and ph go down, or gas to be removed and ph go up because it has to leave suspension allowing carbonic acid to transform back to c02 which will now leave suspension.
ur ph will change, ur controller will kick on and the cycle continues the other way, c02 goes in concentrations increase and some c02 turns into carbonic acid.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I'm definitely listening as I know there is something involved beyond just simply carbonic acid dropping the pH.

I have an interesting setup with a 90g and 75g that are almost twin tanks (with the exception of the extra height on the 90g, obviously). But both tanks have identical light fixtures, identical bulbs (bought at the same time), identical filtration, identical pH controllers, identical CO2 setups, identical uv sterilizers, heck even the furniture and tanks are the same brand from the same LFS. Oh, and they have identical substrate bought at the same time. The only real difference is that I brought up the 90g about 3 months before the 75g (I did it that way to swap over plants, fish, inverts, and bacteria).

Oh, and I also perform water changes with the exact same python from the exact same water faucet and treat the water from the exact same bottle of Prime.

So... with all that identical stuff, you'd think I'd get identical pH reading, right? But I'm not.

My 90g is reading 6.4 and my 75g is 6.7. Both drop checkers are showing greenish yellow so I don't know that I can crank the CO2 up much higher without gassing the fish (I am very slowly increasing the CO2 on both, but I wait a night between each adjustment to see how the fish handle the setting during the night hours).

I think a 0.3 pH difference is significant given how identical the two tanks are. And, yes, of course I calibrated the probes using identical solutions and methods.

What I do see that's not identical between the tanks is that my 90g is growing plants like there's no tomorrow and my 75g is still not quite there. I'm still battling some algae issues from being a new startup tank (but it's getting better). I see the plant growth difference when (you know what's coming) I've put stems of the same plant in both tanks. The stem grows much more vigorously in my 90g than my 75g. The leaves and stems are larger, thicker, and stronger in the 90g.

So two tanks that are almost identical, but have different pH readings. There is a strong correlation with the plant growth. Maybe it's the oxygen the plants are giving off? Maybe it's the higher rate of growth is using more CO2? Unfortunately, for all that I know on the subject, there's more I don't know so I'm at a loss to understand why the two tanks are showing different pH readings. So far, what I've been doing is not worrying about trying to make the two tanks match and simply adjusting the CO2 to whatever seems to work best for each tank, regardless of how similar the tanks may be.

Any ideas on why the 90g has a lower pH reading that the 75g?


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Not alone in this either. (twin tanks)
Setup 75g 'bookend' tanks.
The only difference was the substrate. Flourite original in one and Eco-Complete in the other same blah blah, ferts, CO2, lights (ran off the same timer) and even plants. First one to get BBA was the EC tank. 
Plant growth was completely different and eliminated the 'bookend' effect within 6 months.

BBA is the mystery misery of planted tanking, the rest seem easy


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Complexity said:


> I'm definitely listening as I know there is something involved beyond just simply carbonic acid dropping the pH.
> 
> I have an interesting setup with a 90g and 75g that are almost twin tanks (with the exception of the extra height on the 90g, obviously). But both tanks have identical light fixtures, identical bulbs (bought at the same time), identical filtration, identical pH controllers, identical CO2 setups, identical uv sterilizers, heck even the furniture and tanks are the same brand from the same LFS. Oh, and they have identical substrate bought at the same time. The only real difference is that I brought up the 90g about 3 months before the 75g (I did it that way to swap over plants, fish, inverts, and bacteria).
> 
> ...


i've started using fish as my guide, which u are doing, the difference being, i dont use the drop checker for anything other than a reference saying my c02 is working.. mine turns yellow about 1.5 hours after c02 comes on. and my fish don't gasp, they swim and play, and eat the way they should.

just because the c02 setups are the same does not mean they inject excalty the same
also being 3 more months mature, it has time to buildup debris and organics, those release carbon and hemic acid whicd does help plants absorb nutrients.

another factor to consider is height taller tanks direct light in a more downward manner than lowe tanks do
hoppy has done much research on depth, and the distance between light and water surface.. ur plants probably have more PAR on the taller tank than they do on the shorter tank given the distance to substrate is the same for both
my plants don't REALLY start growing till about 6 inches up frm substrate then they get all huge and pretty. so when i get a new plant in, i have to grow it slowly and then when it gets really pretty chop it all off so i can start a strong base, takes two cuts usually to do this as the plant was just growing in well and i chop it off


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Just to start with the 75 has 1.2 times the light. After that the variables include plant types, fish loads and feeding habits to name just a few. What is that saying about initial conditions? 

It is probably just the same with the bba there are just too many things that might trigger it. Finding the cure is probably a better focus.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> i've rearely seen a thread were someone with a ph controller doesn't have algae. not that its not possible but the count keeps going up in my head
> 
> ph controllers have to see the change in ph before they turn on the solenoid, and c02 takes 15 minutes to change ph after being injected, likewise it takes about 15 minutes after turned off before carbonic acid starts lowering due to c02 off gassing, so its easy to see why without a very accurate and precise ph meter, you are geting c02 swings daily. all day long, BBA loves this sort of environment
> 
> i have no proof to back this up only my basic understanding of ph probes, but i do understand the relationship between c02 and ph changes and im using logic to work this out


Interesting comment, but what are you posing as the control/alternative? Just a CO2 on a timer, with a set BPS that has been adjusted/refined over time?

I guess a setup like that would be more stable if you left if on 24/7, yes. But I wonder how much fluctuation a ph controller really gives. My pretty much stayed at within .1 range all the time - but that's just looking at the digital readout. It's hard to know how accurate it really was


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Dave-H said:


> Interesting comment, but what are you posing as the control/alternative? Just a CO2 on a timer, with a set BPS that has been adjusted/refined over time?
> 
> I guess a setup like that would be more stable if you left if on 24/7, yes. But I wonder how much fluctuation a ph controller really gives. My pretty much stayed at within .1 range all the time - but that's just looking at the digital readout. It's hard to know how accurate it really was


m c02 is on a timer, one hour on before lights, off with lights
i haven't adjusted it in 2 weeks now
my plan for adjustment is 2 weeks away until things get bushier


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Certainly that would cause a big fluctuation at the begining/end of the lighting period. Is it your theory that the small up and down fluctuation that would be associated with the ph controller might cause algae more than just the day/night fluctuation?

It certainly could be, I had a controller + algae problems after running it at the same setting 24/7 for a looong time.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Daily pH fluctuations even without CO2 injection on a heavily planted tank can be almost a full point shift! Test a non injected, lightly buffered (2dKH) tank in the morning before the photo period starts and again after the lights have been on for 8-9hrs. Seeing can be believing.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

ARgh.. to many moving parts in the discussion about controlling algae


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Dave-H said:


> Certainly that would cause a big fluctuation at the begining/end of the lighting period. Is it your theory that the small up and down fluctuation that would be associated with the ph controller might cause algae more than just the day/night fluctuation?
> 
> It certainly could be, I had a controller + algae problems after running it at the same setting 24/7 for a looong time.





wkndracer said:


> Daily pH fluctuations even without CO2 injection on a heavily planted tank can be almost a full point shift! Test a non injected, lightly buffered (2dKH) tank in the morning before the photo period starts and again after the lights have been on for 8-9hrs. Seeing can be believing.


i am not concerned with the amount of ph shift, im concerned about the c02 concentrations variance with the ph shift


in nature c02 builds up at night in most cases and is highest right before th sun rises, we don't have a river stream or 20 feet of substrate either. we have a very closed loop system that holds the same water, turning the c02 off a ight allows the bacteria to do what in many peoples tanks can' do during the day. bacteria are far less efficient below ph of 6.5 my tank ow with aquasoil gets well below 6 with c02 on so nightime is a time of rest and oxygen use. and before lihts come on i give the plants wha they desire,, they don't need it at night its just easy to keep stable that way, i inject far more than the average person on here as well


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Dave-H said:


> ARgh.. to many moving parts in the discussion about controlling algae


haha I can't control algae but the speculations on CO2 when I know what daily fluctuations I actually tested gives me a giggle (sorry)


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Here is a thought to kick around. Perhaps the bba is after the phosphorus locked in the substrate and in the wood. I have no idea what that would mean. 

Soluble phosphorus, either from fertilizer or natural weathering, reacts with clay, iron,
and aluminum compounds in the soil and is converted readily to less available forms by
the process of phosphorus fixation. Because of these fixation processes, phosphorus
moves very little in most soils (less than an inch in most soils), stays close to its place of
origin, and crops seldom absorb more than 20 percent of fertilizer phosphorus during
the first cropping season after application. As a result, little soil phosphorus is lost by
leaching. This fixed, residual phosphorus remains in the rooting zone and will be slowly
available to succeeding crops.
http://www.rainbowplantfood.com/agronomics/efu/phosphorus.pdf

Phosphorus (P) accumulated in decaying log segments of all
three species, especially fir logs in which the P content was nearly five times the initial
content after 14 years.
http://www.fs.fed.us/psw/publications/documents/gtr-181/031_Prescott.pdf


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Ok that was so far over my head that I can't even comment


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

Im wondering if re-occurring fluctuations are more effective in triggering BBA. After all, you will get a huge fluctuation on water change day. Yet, I don't see any evidence of a water change triggering BBA. Unless, it takes a week for the BBA to infest the tank.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

BruceF said:


> Here is a thought to kick around. Perhaps the bba is after the phosphorus locked in the substrate and in the wood. I have no idea what that would mean.
> 
> Soluble phosphorus, either from fertilizer or natural weathering, reacts with clay, iron,
> and aluminum compounds in the soil and is converted readily to less available forms by
> ...


i will add to this that, algae is a simple organism it can survive of tiny amount of nutrients that are in low enough amounts as to not be detectable through standard testing... this may be something to look further into, but it grows equally fine on hard rocks and filter tubing


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Fun with google first hit, phosphorus plastic tubing. 
“A process for forming plastic tubing which involves extruding a molten plastic composition through a die which produces an extended length of plastic tubing, passing the hot tubing through a vacuum sizing tube wherein the wall of the tubing is sized by being drawn to the wall of the sizing tube by a vacuum, and cooling the sized tubing so that the tubing will be self-supporting at normal ambient temperatures, wherein the plastic composition contains a phosphorus-containing additive in an amount sufficient to cause an improvement in the smoothness of the interior of said tubing.”


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Hahahahahahaha


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

BruceF said:


> Is this the right one?
> Batrachospermum: [low power]
> This alga is found in shaded areas of reservoirs that contain soft water. Batrachospermum will not live in
> water that is constantly exposed to the sun. It lives only in cold water that has low levels of organic materials. Thus it is an indicator of "clean water." It creates a problem when large growths in irrigation canals slow the flow of water.


No, but you are close, it is a Rhodophyta. More often than not, the name BBA refers to Audouinella species. Most often Audouinella hermannii - sometimes daviesii, unifila, species, rarely floridula. (I've collected samples from lots of people throughout the states.) An interesting fact about BBA - it reproduces sexually. It needs good flowing water to do so (but even a snail bumping into it will do the job on a small scale.) That is why you often see it in abundance in high flowing streams. 

I've successfully eliminated it from the 55 gallon and 15 gallon. I know how to grow it and how to destroy it without any trouble. Nowadays, I ask others to send it to me for more mad scientist experiments as I only see one or two tufts in my experimental tanks/jars. Many of you are seeing/experiencing the theme on how to treat it successfully. "Being consistent."

(Oh - and I gladly take BBA samples from anyone that is plagued by it. I am always messing around with algae and have a new set of "tanks" waiting for new donations. :hihi


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Thanks. I figured I was probably wrong. I have been playing a lot with various algae lately, not necessarily by choice. I have no idea what any of them are specifically. I assume just like moss there are thousands of them. I have been keeping tanks off and on for many years but I have never had any bba that I can remember. I usually only use moderate light and never use co2. So I have been curious about why and how it survives. It strikes me that I have only ever seen it in bubbling fish shops.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

You are right in your assumptions. Thousands upon thousands and they like similar plants can have hybrids. I used to have nothing but trouble with BBA. Now, it's a rarity to even see. The best way to cure BBA algae is to prevent it from getting into your tank to begin with. Difficulty is it hitchhikes on plants, in the bellies of fish, on decorations, etc.


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