# Algae woes getting me down



## PlantView (Feb 6, 2004)

hchance, after reading your post, a few general questions/ideas crossed my mind.

- substrate type and depth?
- photo-period?
- temperature?
- any chemical filtration being used?
- plant types? slow-growing rooted? fast-growing stem?
- overall planting density? sparse? moderate? heavy?
- water circulation? dead-spots with local algae growth?
- fish/invertebrate bioload? light? heavy?
- are you using any other trace mix besides Seachem Flourish?
- N-P-K fertilization routine? commercial products? raw chemicals?
- water change routine? tap water pre-conditioning routine?



hchance said:


> I realized recently that I was totally overdosing on potassium, so I quit dosing it all together and have changed fifty percent of the water two times this week.


BTW, Aquarium Landscapes/FishVet.com sells a little potassium test kit which seems to be pretty well-regarded.

PlantView


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

Are you dosing any Iron Heather ? At 3 wpg you need to keep a good level of FE in there, I have found its one of the most important nutrients to plants. 
That could be the missing link... :wink: 
Do not stop dosing ferts, starving the plants will not help... you should get yourself some more fast growing stems plants in there, they dont have to stay but they will help battle the algae woes, the tank is still fairly new... even more java moss will help immensely if you like it and plan on growing it.


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## hchance (Feb 11, 2004)

Hi and thanks for replies.
Plantview-
I have 3 inches eco complete, 10 hrs per day lighting, no chemical filtration, tons of fast growing stems, one large ozelot sword and one large amazon sword, planted so densely that I can't fit any more in there. I don't think I have any dead spots of water flow but it's possible. I have the spraybar located across the back. I have about 25 tetras (black neons and cardinals), a yo yo loach, 3 ottos, one sae, 3 amano shrimp and a ram. No other trace mix other than Flourish, I have raw potassium that I was dosing dry about a teaspoon after each 50 percent water change ( too much?). I would test for nitrates every day and results were usually around 2.5 -5.0 ppm. I have raw potassium nitrate I mixed with water in a 250ml bottle and I usually added half a cap after testing. I just got some seachem phosphate and a redsea test, but have not started dosing yet. My test shows .2 ppm. I change my water religiously every week at 50%, more lately since I started having problems. No tap water routine except I do add some Prime, even thought I have well water (through water softener). The water temp is around 80. I turned down the heater (rena) down to 76 a while back, but my lights heat the water up quite a bit. Even had them crack my glass top a few times. Could the temp cause problems?
Buck-
I do have Flourish Iron. I bought it last week and have dosed it once since then, about half a cap. I was worried it would encourage my staghorn problem. I do have a good bunch of Java moss in there already. I really like it a lot, except right now it's totally covered in staghorn. YucK!

So I will start dosing again. Should I dose lightly? Do you think my phosphates are ok? I will look for a potassium test if you think it's worth it. Does it sound like I overdosed? 

Heather


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## hchance (Feb 11, 2004)

Ok--I've been reading up about algae on this forum. Now I'm not so sure I know what kind I have. I would like to show a picture but I'm not sure how. Anyway, it's grayish, about a half inch long, and all over swords, vals and microsword. It's pretty much taken over my java moss. Should I be trimming off all the affected leaves? Can you give microsword a haircut like hairgrass? I've been trying to pull some of it off but it's stuck on there good.
I would appreciate anyone's suggestions on how to kick this algae in the butt.
Thanks!


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## PlantView (Feb 6, 2004)

hchance, sorry for not replying sooner.

First of all, your husbandry, hardware, and stocking levels all sound fine to me. In fact, I think about the only area we didn't touch on is overfeeding, and I doubt that's an issue.

However, the following statement in your second post really caught my attention.



hchance said:


> No tap water routine except I do add some Prime, even thought I have well water (through water softener).


Regarding the composition of well water, gosh, that could amount to just about anything!

It isn't unusual to find one or more of the typical chemical constituents seriously out-of-balance in well water, some being sky-high, others sky-low. Realistically, the only way to know what's going on is to have a water sample tested by a competent lab. And yes, this means testing for what we normally consider trace elements.

Not always, but sometimes, well water can be seriously deficient in oxygen. In this case, it may be helpful to vigorously aerate the water for 24 hours before use (or testing). This will oxidize elements like Iron (Fe), Manganese (Mn), Copper (Cu), and so on, if present in ionic form.

Until you've got the numbers, it's awfully easy to mistake deficiency for toxicity with regard to "trace" elements.

Regarding water softening, as you may know, household water softeners work by regenerating an ion-exchange resin with Sodium Chloride (NaCl) brine. The resin swaps Sodium (Na), a trace element, for Calcium (Ca) and Magnesium (Mg) in the original source water. Just how much extra Na gets added to the treated water is dependent on the source water's hardness, among others things.

Some people elect to use (the more expensive) Potassium Chloride (KCl) rather than NaCl in their water softener. This adds good old Potassium (K), the macro-nutrient, instead of Na.

For this reason, among others, it isn't uncommon for aquarists to process their water through a small reverse-osmosis (RO) and/or de-ionization (DI) system. Then they'll mix this effluent with a percentage of their original source water. Or if using 100% RO/DI water, they'll use a product like Seachem's "Equilibrium" or Kent Marine's "RO Right" to "reconstitute" the water. This last method is roughly equivalent a marine aquarist using an artificial salt mix.

Anyhow, I'll have to apologize if you've already considered these issues. However, I just feel that the problems you've described certainly sound like your water could be the problem. If you haven't yet done so, I hope you'll be able to get it checked-out since you've already made the investment in a high-performance planted set-up.

PlantView


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## hchance (Feb 11, 2004)

Hello--
Thanks for your reply. I was hoping somebody would! No, I don't overfeed, I only feed once a day as much as they will eat. I don't think any even hits the bottom. I have considered my water quality. Our house is fairly new, about 3 years old. I was going to get some of the potassium pellets for the softener, but then was worried it would make my overdose worse. I've read many posts about the effects of the salt on plants, but I never found out what any of the symptoms would be. I don't like the idea of having to go the RO/DI route. It would just be too much more work than this tank is already. I will look into having the tap water tested though. I would like to know if there's anything in there that would be the cause of this problem. Between my husband and I we have four tanks going, three planted. This one is the only one with problems, of course it's the only high tech tank too. I'm wondering if I should just invest in less demanding plants and replace the infected ones, and remove the 30 watt fixture. Would that improve anything? What should I do about the plants that are covered in algae? Today I did a water change and trimmed some stuff off. I don't know if this is right but I gave the micro sword a haircut. It was so covered that I didn't think it would matter much. Does this kind of problem usually work itself out? How much time do you think it will take for things to improve? 
In the meantime I will try and figure out how to get my water tested. Thanks for recommending that. I appreciate any and all suggestions.

Heather


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## rumples riot (May 29, 2003)

Heather I have not read all the way through this thread but a couple of things stand out in my mind. I think your regime is ok but I have found in the past that beard algae normally comes about by two factors. High phosphates and high PH.

Is there any chance you can lower your KH so that you can drop your PH below 7.0? Then I would look at your phosphates, they are a little high. Phosphate should be as low as possible. It is thought to be the most common contributing factor to the production of algae. So hit those too things and you should see your aglae problems disappear.

Paul


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## hchance (Feb 11, 2004)

How do I lower my KH? Wouldn't I have to add RO/DI water? 
I didn't think that my phosphates were high enough. Isn't .2 ppm ok? Normally my PH out of the tap after it has sit for a day is around 8.4. I don't think I could lower it more that 7.4 with my CO2 could I?


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## rumples riot (May 29, 2003)

You could lower Kh by using RO water or by using peat. If you can get your KH to 3-4 degrees then you can get you Ph down to 6.8 or so with CO2.

Phosphates should be as low as possible. Dry foods will contribute to phosphate levels. Check what you are feeding to your fish. Some foods are worse than others.

Paul


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## ninoboy (Jan 26, 2004)

I don't think 0.2 ppm of PO4 is too high if your plants are using it. I dose PO4 to 0.75ppm in my tanks. I have more algae problems with excess micro fert and iron than PO4.

I thought the targeted PO4 level is 1ppm and 10:1 ratio with nitrate. Am I going the wrong way here? :lol:


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## hchance (Feb 11, 2004)

Ok-- Here's a picture. Hope this works.

http://www.plantedtank.net/imageh/images/20/algae1.jpg


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## ninoboy (Jan 26, 2004)

Looks like staghorn to me. Read Unirdna thread (2 thread under yours).


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## hchance (Feb 11, 2004)

Thanks-- I have read that thread--plus countless others on staghorn. I just wasn't sure if this was the same stuff. Also wasn't quite sure why I have it because I haven't really dosed much iron, which seems to be the cause. Unless I have excess iron in my tap water that I'm not aware of yet.


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## ninoboy (Jan 26, 2004)

I got hair algae with excess iron. The staghorn just shows up occassionally as and when without any apparent reason. But mine wasn't as bad before.


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## esterman (Feb 12, 2004)

I would not presume to offer any advice as i have only had my 54 gallon running for 6 weeks,but having read loads of material on this and other forums i have reached a few conclusions that may or may not be valid.It seems to me that co2 injection causes more problems than anything else.I have just one 55 watt cf and my tank looks just fine.It is becoming more apparent all the time that the old addage of keep it simple stupid might well have been aimed exclusively toward fish keeping.I am convinced that fish are more adaptable than we give them credit for,and it seems that the more chemical fixes that are added the more problems occur.The only chemical i add is a capfull of flourish every other day,and so far my plants look healthy and more importantly the fish seem quite happy.Another area of doubt i have is this apparent obsession with water changes i must confess that i do some myself,but i have to tell you that years ago before all these forums were available on the web i did not change the tank water at all and my tank stayed healthy.Perhaps its because i am a bit older and wiser,but i feel really sorry for some of the people who read thse sites and rush down to the lfs and grab all these instant remedies when in most cases nature would take care of the problems given some time after all i figure mother nature has been taking care of fish a bit longer than me.Hope you find resolutions to you current problems


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Wow, what a wide variety of opinions and recommendations! All good points...
Keep in mind that everybody's situation, water, light, nutrients, is different, and what works for you might not work for others.
If your water is very balanced with regards to minerals, and you have a low light tank with a few plants, not adding any CO2 and nutrients except for a capful of Flourish might be a good advice.
On the other hand, if you use well water and run it through a softener system, and it is high light tank, it could be more difficult to achieve a balance.
I would suspect, just like others, that the water composition is part of the problem.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

I have three 30 gallon tanks lined up that used to share 2 shop lights. Under those limited light conditions I grew wonderful plants like crypts, swords, vals and anubius. No CO2 additions, occassional (monthly) additions of FE and K. I didn't try or want to grow any stem plants. 

When I switched the light situation it was to put a single 96 watt PC bulb over each tank. That cause a great upset to the balance I had achieved and I had no choice but to begin CO2 injections. The algae had begun to overtake the tanks and the CO2 gave the plants the ability to 'fight back'. 

I've now begun keeping stem plants and 'feeding' the plants a lot more. CO2 was the 'fix' not the problem for me.


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## hchance (Feb 11, 2004)

Well--Thanks for checking out my post! Would you like an update? I have had to rip out quite a bit of my plants that were covered in the stuff. As the algae took over, I finally realized it was not staghorn but in fact black beard algae. Looked like curly black clumps of hairs, don't think I should say what it looked like! Anyway, I replaced the microsword with E. Tennelus, drastically trimmed the java moss, and added a huge bunch fast growing plants. I also started adding about 1ml of Flourish almost every day, and half a capful of Flourish Iron every other day. I upped my Co2 just a hair also. That has helped a ton! I now only have a bit of that algae on a rock, but for the most part it has been gone for almost two weeks now. I think I might have beaten it! I am still using tap water and don't plan on changing that. 
I did lose a lot of plants though. I tell ya, I don't think I can handle anymore problems with this tank . Hopefully I'll be able to sit back and enjoy it for a while!
Thanks for all suggestions to help. I really appreciate this site!


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## pauline29 (May 2, 2004)

Your ph seems very high coming from the tap and definitely adding resins like peat would soften yr water thus lowering yr kh. With CO2 injection you can bring down yr ph level to 6.8 or lower. Mine's stable at 6.2 ph and kh 1.0.

Perhaps you should stop dosing the liquid fert until situation improves-maybe 2 wks. In the meantime, if you really need to give ferts, use the tabs and bury them in the substrate, that way you'll minimise the algae by disallowing free minerals in the water.

Another tip for algae removal besides having to trim off those leaves would be to use an airline tubing and a bucket. Siphon off the water thru tube into the bucket and you can start vacumming the algae off the leaves as yr tubing is quite slim, water does not deplete so quickly. This way you have ample time to vacumm a lot of the algae whilst simultaneously conducting water changes. I've done this with my blue-green algae attack daily for 3 days and its not been back!


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