# Surely Not Cycled Already?!



## Thelongsnail (Dec 2, 2015)

It sounds to me like it could be cycled, but I'd keep feeding and testing for a week or so to be sure. I'm sure I read somewhere that BB can double every 24 hours, so it depends on how much was in your "filter juice" (what a name!)

I'd keep feeding larger amounts and testing for a week and then add stock slowly if all seems well


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## sfsamm (Apr 3, 2017)

I wouldn't trust that cycle for a minute... Fish food takes quite a while to release its Ammonia and is an uncontrolled release. It actually has to rot prior to releasing anything. Keep feeding it daily and watch for a at least two weeks. If your nitrAtes are the only thing that ever raises you might be alright to add one or two small fish and continue to monitor a month or so before actually adding your stock. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

Don't trust it either @sfsamm! 
Wouldn't dream of putting anything but plants in there at the moment! 

Just thought it was odd that nitrites and ammonia not showing earlier and nitrates already! Took longer for the 6.5g hex I cycled a few months ago!! 
But I know each tank, filter etc different and before the hex hadn't cycled a tank in over six years so like to check I'm going in the right direction! 
Will carry on with the food and tests and see how it goes.
@Thelongsnail yup 'filter juice' probably not the nicest of names! Certainly conjures up a pretty nasty image when you think about it!!


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## Kalyke (Dec 1, 2014)

I wouldn't trust it. It takes around 36 hours for BB to double. 


In other words, don't you think that the dirt you put in the tank was the dirt (nitrate) that needed to come out of the old tank? I think you would have to feed it some ammonia, watch the ammonia become nitrites etc, before assuming the tank is cycled. Even then, would it have enough BB to take care of a fish load?


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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

That's why I asked in the first place, as already said I'm no expert in cycling tanks, have had two for years (one nearly 9 and one six-ish years). 

I'm following advice I got a few months ago in a previous post, using this method I've had no problems and have a few young Mystery snails and a baby Rainbow that is thriving (discovered a month ago). Test water daily. So thought would give it a go in a slightly bigger tank. 

I didn't think it was fully cycled, which is why I asked the questions I did, just wanted to check I was doing the right stuff. 
I assume the grotty stuff I put in from filters was waste and that in turn would have prob produced ammonia, as well as BB, me carrying on with fish food (I know this is dated) would carry on producing some. 

I'm just going on advice from here and a little bit of experience using this method, Ive read thousands of posts and pages on cycling this seemed like a nice method compared to sticking chemicals in the tank. 

May be wrong but my pets will always come first and wouldn't put any of them into something that was a death trap!


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## Blacktetra (Mar 19, 2015)

Sounds like your on the right path.

One option is to add some "pest" snails too. They're pretty hardy with things like ammonia and nitrite. Not that you want them to suffer, but they'll eat any algae film and fish food and provide ammonia in a more direct, and regular manner than decomposing fish food might. Just a thought.

You can probably get some bladder/pond snails for free from big box stores. Just look through their tanks, and see if they have any hiding around, then tell the clerk that works in the fish department you'd like a bag of their pest snails. Toss them in your tank, and you're good to go.

If you don't like them, and are worried they will take over the tank, just spend a few days removing and squishing them. People talk about how they're impossible to remove from a tank, but that's only when a tank is packed with hiding places. A new, cycling tank should be pretty easy to clean out.

Or do what I do. Keep them, as they usually keep a pretty limited population when you don't over feed your fish.


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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

Thanks a lot for reply @Blacktetra, was questioning myself then! 

This tank's intended for some Mystery snails, had 5 adults and missed a tiny bit of a clutch hidden in plants a couple of months ago so have ended up with 10 babies (know I'm lucky, could have been hundreds!). 
Three in with baby Rainbow in 6-7 gallon and rest in big tank but gotta get moving as all growing fast! 
Nitrate climbing a bit with all the veg and stuff! 

Not sure if these guys handle the nastyness as well as pond snails etc? 
Know they're overbred, all purple striped pretty ones that are prob inbred too. Hmm. 
May be worth a try though I'm thinking?! 

Know they don't do the same as the MTS etc as pretty much stick to top of substrate? So maybe MTS would be more appropriate, but Mysteries are def pests for me at the moment!!


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## brothermichigan (Sep 5, 2017)

Grab some pure ammonia, dose the tank up to 3-4 ppm, and then test a day later. So much easier than all of this fish food guesswork.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

GobyWan said:


> Hi, a bit of advice needed please as I've not cycled many tanks!
> 
> I started cycling a 20gallon Thursday morning (13th), used the squeeze old filters into tank water method and tipped that into tank.
> Didn't test water that day as out all evening but the next day had low nitrite and ammonia levels (not quite 0.25ppm.) ph 7.4-7.6.
> ...


I'm on the "I wouldn't trust that cycle" side. I've noticed you're in the UK. I happen to have a spare bottle of pure ammonia that I don't need. I can post it to you free of charge if you like, but more importantly I'd do away with the "pinch of fish food" method and use pure ammonia to raise your ammonia count to 3-5ppm and see where the readings are after 12 hours of the filter running.


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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

RollaPrime said:


> I'm on the "I wouldn't trust that cycle" side. I've noticed you're in the UK. I happen to have a spare bottle of pure ammonia that I don't need. I can post it to you free of charge if you like, but more importantly I'd do away with the "pinch of fish food" method and use pure ammonia to raise your ammonia count to 3-5ppm and see where the readings are after 12 hours of the filter running.


Thanks for the offer but don't worry, can grab a bottle if I need it. 
Have read so much on cycling tanks over the years and this method seemed a bit too good to be true (and easier for a simpleton like me!) but has worked with small tank so far so had hoped same for this one


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## brothermichigan (Sep 5, 2017)

Your method will certainly work, but there's just so much uncertainty involved with ghost feeding and the amount of and rate at which ammonia that is produced. It just seems like a needless hassle when you can replace the fish food with ammonia and be absolutely certain of the amount of ammonia your tank is capable of processing in a given time.


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## tamsin (Jan 12, 2011)

If you have established tanks, rather than just squeezing filter go, swap around some of the media - ceramic is easiest just take some from your establish tank and replace it with the new media and then mix the old and new media in the new tank. Alternatively you can run the new filter in the old tank. If you're using the same substrate you can also swap some of that around.


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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

Thanks for replies and all the tips. 
But now another horrible problem!

My 29 gallon (where majority of snails are) has had a ph crash  
Normally 7.2-7.4. Checked it yesterday morning and was under 6 (below the lowest the api liquid test kit will go). Haven't checked for a week, do it before my w/c. So gutted. Was a tiny hint of ammonia but barely able to see really. Nitrate 20-40 which is higher than it's been for ages. 

Had read an article recently about 'old tank syndrome' but think this is 'too many snails and too much poo syndrome' 

Did two small-ish water changes yest and about to do another, showing between 6-6.4 today. No ammonia or nitrite I could see. 

So annoyed, have a few fish in there I've had years and incredibly attached to (Goby nearly 9 and pair of cories 8 and a bit) and worrying really putting them at risk of nasty stuff. Have a small gang of Rainbows and 3 Otos in there too. 
No fish are acting strangely or gasping but know they could still be suffering from such a change to their water. 

Grr, why started this tank in such a rush and was hoping would be able to shift some blinking snails ASAP. Waste from them and all the veg obv messing up my 29g. 
Think I'm gonna have to move some of the snails into this tank. Feel terrible but levels all much better than this at the moment!!

Does anyone agree?! Feel like a snail murderer but if I go slowly and add a couple at a time maybe I could keep control of the levels a bit with water changes. 
Would be heartbroken if lost any of my lovely fishies. 

Nothing's changed in tank other than a few new plants added a few weeks ago and the snails growing at speed! 
Any help hugely appreciated. 

*Am a fishless cycle person so feel bad even thinking about it!


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

I believe you just need to feed less foods = less snails and less poop, and perform larger water changes than presently.I would try and work up to 50% water change each week or by-weekly.
Snail population's and subsequent poop created by them are indication that too much food is available allowing them to thrive.
pH crashes are not likely with weekly water change unless you are taking measures to alter the pH or..water changes have become fewer and farther between.With weekly water change,water chemsirty should not be much different than source water you are using for the water changes with regard to pH.


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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

I have to admit I prob feed too much veg, every couple of days because there are so many mooching around the tank looking hungry. And with some that are pretty small compared to others I've thought maybe wasn't feeding as much as I should. Stupid me. Should know better!  

And annoyingly my epilepsy has kicked in the last couple of months so water changes not as great as usual. 25% once a week is the norm, but if I'm having a bad time with seizures can take me a couple of days to recover, should have prob doubled with the snails in there. Yup feeling stoopid!


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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

roadmaster said:


> pH crashes are not likely with weekly water change unless you are taking measures to alter the pH or..water changes have become fewer and farther between.With weekly water change,water chemsirty should not be much different than source water you are using for the water changes with regard to pH.


This is the first time this has happened, all the other tanks are fine. I've had a stable ph for years. Why I was so shocked when it came up so yellow! When been so blue for years! 

Have read about ph crashes in other's tanks, normally when cycling/new tanks etc. So has frightened me a bit. When tank going nearly 9yrs!

So I need to avoid that need-to-feed thing that I seem to have going at the moment!! And what would you suggest for w/cs at the moment as don't want to shock them? 
Small daily or every other day? For a few days/a week?
Thanks


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

Although I agree that a pinch of fish food takes a long time to decay into nitrogenous waste, I have "instant cycled" many times by squeezing the sponges from an established tank into a new tank, and added fish an hour or two later....with 100% success.
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When you think about it....when you add fish to a new tank, there isn't an instant explosion of ammonia - it's very gradual and very diluted. If there's already BB in the system from established filter "sponge juice", it begins feeding and replicating relative to the food source right away. 
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I'll grant you that putting sponge smutz in a fresh, new tank may look/seem a little gross, but it really, really works....and better than any bottled BB product.
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Frankly, there's nothing better than seeding a new tank with BB from a healthy, established tank and it makes way more sense than establishing BB colonies from the sky or buying bottled stuff that sat in a warehouse and on a store shelf for who knows how long!
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Check out the Baily Bros @23:30:
https://petfishtalk.com/shows_special/aquarium_water/PetFishTalk_aquarium_water.mp3


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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

@AbbeysDad , I followed the advice you gave on a previous thread of mine you replied to a few months ago! 
Which is why the 6.5g is going well!

I have suddenly realised though that I've been using a different water conditioner for the last two weeks, ran out of Stress Coat, and that's pretty much the only one I've used since starting the tank. And my goldie tank. 
I've used a bit less in the other tanks, just because this has more fish and I'd added plants and messed with filters, said was good for it on bottle. 
It's from wilkos if anyone from U.K. reading. 

So wondering if that's caused the issues/added to them. Grr


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

GobyWan said:


> This is the first time this has happened, all the other tanks are fine. I've had a stable ph for years. Why I was so shocked when it came up so yellow! When been so blue for years!
> 
> Have read about ph crashes in other's tanks, normally when cycling/new tanks etc. So has frightened me a bit. When tank going nearly 9yrs!
> 
> ...


Small water changes every three days while changing out larger portion each time till you get to 50 %.
Then 50 % weekly.


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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

roadmaster said:


> Small water changes every three days while changing out larger portion each time till you get to 50 %.
> Then 50 % weekly.


Thanks a lot. Hopefully my stupidity won't cause any more problems!

And back to Stress Coat just in case!!


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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

No casualties this morning thank god. Really expected half the fish to be ill today but looking ok. 

Am still feeling pretty stupid though!


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## Blacktetra (Mar 19, 2015)

GobyWan said:


> No casualties this morning thank god. Really expected half the fish to be ill today but looking ok.
> 
> Am still feeling pretty stupid though! <a href="http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/images/smilie/icon_sad.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Sad" ></a>


A few notes.
1) it's extremely unlikely that a pH change will kill your fish, so take a deep breath. Panicking causes more problems than stopping to carefully consider.
2) don't feel stupid. This is a complex hobby with a lot of unseen elements. That's why this forum is active, everyone needs help sometimes to puzzle things out.
3) as much as everyone wants to recommend huge water changes, it's almost always better to do smaller ones more frequently than to do 50% changes. This can actually kill your fish if your new water is hugely different from your old water. (i.e tap has 0 nitrate and tank has 160 nitrate) Smaller changes are fine, even stimulating for fish, but very large, very sudden ones aren't good, especially if it means a huge change in nitrate levels. There are a few instances where large WC's are warranted, but they shouldn't be considered a panacea, or cure for every and any problem.
4) if your pH has changed, it has changed for a reason. Any change in your weekly fish tank habbits could be the cause. Keep in mind that your tap may have a different pH when it's fresh, than when it's been sitting for 24 hours, so that could be a part of what you're reading. It could also be an error on your part with the test, or your test strips or chemicals could be quite old. Either way, figuring out WHY it's changed is just as important as trying to correct the problem. WC's might bring your pH back to it's usual level, but if you don't know WHY it dropped, it could very well drop again and your back to square one.
5) If you have a GH and KH test kit, try checking those. Water hardness can raise, and also stabilize your water parameters in regards to pH. If you are adding plants to a tank with almost no mineral content you'll have two problems: your plants will do poorly as they need calcium and magnesium to live. Those minerals are usually found in most tap water at various levels, and those are the minerals that make water "hard." Secondly, if you have very low mineral content (GH& KH) plants will consume parts of that over time, and as they do, your water will become so soft (i.e. lacking in minerals) that your pH will swing much higher or lower when it is affected by any type of basic (high pH) or acidic (low pH) chemical. This could possibly play a role in your pH change recently.

AS FOR YOUR NEW TANK. (Sorry this is getting quite long)
Fish food will work, but it will be an unsightly mess and far slower to work, than to do what has been recommended: dose ammonia or buy a bacteria boosting product.
If you buy some, just add a tiny bit every day and measure your nitrogen cycle parameters like you've been doing.
If you'd rather skip the purchase element, just remove all that leftover food, and add a few snails. They can stand a bit of ammonia, just feed them sparingly while you keep a close eye on your parameters. They will provide you with a slow release of ammonia, to establish your BB (beneficial bacteria). If the ammonia levels get too high you can stop feeding for a day or two and/or do a small water change.

Also, if you have too many mystery snails, see if your pet shop will take them off your hands in exchange for store credit. Then you can buy ammonia/bb bacteria/GH or KH tests. 

Lastly, if you are still reading, congrats, and sorry about the shakes. My friend has them too and it can make life complicated when they flare up.


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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

Thanks so much @Blacktetra , definitely been panicking about it since yest! The ph could have been like this since my last water test a week ago I guess, just not really seen the fish showing any probs so hadn't realised! 
Was just worrying could have been a big shock to their systems, being in the same (stable) water for years. 

I've always thought smaller w/cs were the best from everything I've read over the years! Especially for issues like this. My tap water ph is around 7.2-7.4 (same as my tanks always been), my goldie and baby Rainbow tank, and this new one, still showing this when tested yest so think def a prob with this tank. Grr

I threw away my GH and KH tests a few weeks ago (typical!) as realised they'd been open for ages and was supposed to replace when I ordered the tank but completely forgot so will get ordering new ones ASAP. I'm in a hard water area. 
I added the few new plants (easy ones, another amazon sword (pretty large), echinodorus ozelot leopard green) as thought might be good with all the nastiness from the snails. 

I called the LFS around me a couple of months ago when I realised how fast the snails were growing, had read many people lost a lot of them when breeding but my 10 were going strong and weren't going anywhere! They only take from suppliers apparently, so with me not being able to drive at the moment I came to decision I'd just have to get a new tank!
Should have prob culled or given my goldfish a nice meal but ended up in this position instead!

Think I might move a few over to the new tank, will help with all the waste in the 29g and with the bit of it the new tank needs. 
I was sent a free bottle of API Quick Start with the tank and stuff for it. I've never used it, or anything like it really. Says it detoxifies ammonia and nitrite. So could maybe give it a go. 

Most annoying thing (after the banging head and feeling like I've ran a marathon!) is the reverse sleeping patterns, will sleep pretty much all day and when wake up properly it's 1am and really don't want to go disturbing fish for w/cs!

Pretty long there too! Thanks if you got through it!!


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## Wantsome99 (Nov 27, 2016)

deleted post


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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

Quick update on tanks!

In 29 gallon I've done roughly 25% w/cs daily. 
One day chopped back my huge amazon sword that was taking over the tank and a few questionable leaves on others in tank (mainly crypts). 

Two days later cleared out some gunk! Bottom of filter, pump etc, random areas that get a bit forgotten about when not feeling too great.

The ph has gone up, first two days had risen that evening obv after w/c but back to 6 in the morning. Monday and today are showing 6.4 ish so hoping back on track. 

My 20g had two Mystery snails from this tank moved over Friday. One of the adults and a medium sized baby. 
All results the same as before 7.2ish ph and 5 nitrate, 0 ammonia and nitrite. Same for three days so I moved two more over last night. One adult and m sized bab. Same results today. 

Hoping that ridding some of the forgotten waste and moving a few of the Mysteries nasty stuff will get 29gallon back to normality and this new one will carry on going well! 
New GH and KH tests came earlier so will test when back home later. 

Fingers crossed it carries on


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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

I've just tested my GH and KH levels in the 29g and my tap water with API test kit. 

TAP WATER-
GH - 13 drops, over 214.8, only goes up to twelve drops on conversion chart!!

KH- 6 drops, 107.4. 

TANK WATER-
GH- 10 drops, 179. 

KH- 3 drops, 53.7. 

Can anyone help out with my limited knowledge!? Is this normal or could this difference be the reason I've had a ph crash? Or is the difference because of the crash? A bit useless with GH and KH! 

Ph still showing 6.4 today. 

Thanks for any help


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

DOC (dissolved organic carbon) in 6 to 9 year old substrate + mulm,detritus, could help drive down pH over month's/year's but as mentioned,, larger weekly water changes should prevent much of a change.
Could be that now that the plant matter and detritus has been cleaned up a bit, and possibly decaying matter removed from filter(s) the tank will be much more stable.
I would put test kit's away and see how fishes respond to the larger water changes each week with less food's and subsequent waste cut back.

I have used soils with peat mixed in long running tanks of a couple year's and tanks still remained fairly close to pH I have from the tap with weekly 50% water changes.

If fishes have done fine for years, I would not get too worked up chasing GH.Kh number's and might add say 1/4 tsp Epsom salt once a week to the tank to achieve slightly more hardness if and only if pH drops even lower than stable 6.2 to 6.4 with the weekly 50% water changes.
My two cents.


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## Blacktetra (Mar 19, 2015)

Roadmaster has some good advice. Don't let the numbers scare you too much when the fish seem happy and healthy.

I suggested the GH and KH tests mostly to ensure that neither were close to 0, as that can cause a huge swing in pH.

Still a bit of a mystery how/why this tank has a lower pH, but it's not likely to bother your fish if it's relatively stable.


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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

Thanks so much to you both for all the help and great advice!

Will definitely be increasing amount during water changes and have already cut back the amount of fruit and veg I'm feeding (helps with 4 of the snails moved too). 
The tank will obviously have a few less snail inhabitants soon when I make sure new one will be ok for them.

Everyone seems happy in the tank so will hide the kits away for a week and stop testing like a nutter!
Forget the tank's so old sometimes so will give it the attention it needs to avoid any more problems! 

Thanks again


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## Proteus01 (Mar 12, 2017)

This whole thread is a fantastic case study for tank parameter balancing and prioritizing, and recovery. As I have a 1 year old tank with lots of lava rock, I’m concerned about an eventual pH crash when the mulm, poop, detritus buildup decides to do something fun. I’ve got my notes taken down for when I see something changing, so I don’t have the wrong reaction in a panic. 
Good stuff, here.


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

Proteus01 said:


> This whole thread is a fantastic case study for tank parameter balancing and prioritizing, and recovery. As I have a 1 year old tank with lots of lava rock, I’m concerned about an eventual pH crash when the mulm, poop, detritus buildup decides to do something fun. I’ve got my notes taken down for when I see something changing, so I don’t have the wrong reaction in a panic.
> Good stuff, here.


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Once the decomposition process is complete, the resulting mulm is relatively inert. It may appear unsightly, but it no longer pollutes the water. So if your partial water changes are keeping newly generated pollution in check, there will be no downrange surprises.


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## Proteus01 (Mar 12, 2017)

@AbbeysDad I hope that my tank can fully process the mulm, as you said. I’d like to be able to say in a year that I’ve not had any issues. Water changes are happening and all creatures are happy today. That tank is lightly stocked and has lots of plants, so I don’t worry too much - just want to be ready.


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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

Well it's been a bit up and down, checked water 6days after last post (yup couldn't leave it the full 7!) and ph was 6 again. Grr. 

Did water changes, inspected and worried. Crept up again and during w/c a few days ago realised the holder thingy (must have a name but my brain not working!) for pump/filter/heater was coming away from the glass at the back, glue pretty old now so giving up! 
So a lot of nasty old cack has obv been collecting for a while. Can't really feel it until you get at it a bit!

Guessing that's what caused the issue, it's at the bottom, I've got gravel and it's all built up under the actual holder thing. It's at the back right obv on pic. 
That's just after planting my last plants, there are more fish in there and snails, pic looks a bit bare!!

And my gorgeous Goby popping his head out of his croc. I hate the thing and would prefer plants but he claimed it as soon as he moved in many years ago so he's allowed to keep it 

Seems ok last few days with tests so hopefully will be ok if I carry on with water changes and get cack out but think may need to try and fix stuff


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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

And forgot to say that the 20g is doing brilliantly! As that was the point of the thread in the first place!!


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## Blacktetra (Mar 19, 2015)

That built up mulm and detritus you found (if I understand you correctly) may be related to your ph change, but I wouldn't obsess over it. Ph changes don't seem to bother fish all that much so long as the shift isn't pretty substantial and relatively sudden. Even in the wild ponds often have very different pH levels throughout a 24 hour day. So far as I can see, you're being a good tank keeper, things look pretty healthy, and I'd say you're doing great. Don't let the pH concern you so long as you're doing your other duties pretty regularly (water changes, cleaning out any excess mulm/detritus/other fancy names for fish poo, cleaning filters as needed, etc.)


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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

Yes, mean nasty stuff! The first bucket of water I cleaned out was filthy, loads of crap!
Unless I pull the entire thing off the glass and get other filter/pump/heaters to replace these I'll just have to make sure it's all cleaned out every wc (have to stick gravel cleaner down at the back at an angle and clears out pretty well). But as no problems with this tank for years I'm thinking best to leave it where it is! And just up my maintenance!!

Really think this is the root of the issue, tank's gone well for so long and fish all seem happy. It's almost 9 years old so guess done pretty well so far! 

When my Goby's out and about it's normally a good sign 'stuff's' ok, he's quite a sensitive chap and not appearing to bother him at all. Or anyone else. 
So definitely won't stress about it now discovered what's prob caused ph issues. 

Thanks a lot @Blacktetra , you've been so brilliant 
Tank's not the prettiest, bit of a mess, but tend to plant 'around' the fish! Had cories so long that trashed the place, now snails, so easier to leave areas clear so everyone can get around causing the least damage! 

Got my lone Blue Rainbow fry to go in and join his parents and the gang, almost 2months old now and obv grown rather slowly being a Bow but as long as I know no major issues can get in there to cause trouble soon


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## Blacktetra (Mar 19, 2015)

Thank you @GobyWan "brilliant" is quite generous of you. Likely the first time that term has been aimed in my direction.

Any credit you give me is really a compliment to this community. The things I've learned I've mostly learned from being here and listening to those wiser than myself. Thank you none the less. I hope your fish continue to be happy and healthy.


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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

Haha you've definitely put my mind at ease, as I'm a big old worrier (when it comes to tanks and the beasts within it!). 

This forum is great, wish I'd come across it many years ago  

But many thanks to you specifically


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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

Yup another post! 

Put the lights on yest and 29g tank was really cloudy, was fine the day before. Did my good old water tests and other than 10-20 (usually 10) nitrate and ph at 6 (grr) no ammonia or nitrite. 
Had only done 35%ish w/c three days before. 

Did wc and cleaned filter (well, fine one and changed my grubby filter wool). Thought I'd get my largish bit of driftwood out and give it a good clean, this was done a couple of months ago but this time I could feel and see it's breaking down with a bit of rubbing about. Water was v brown and def not like usual feel to it. It's not mopani, just sold as driftwood, a chunky thing. 

So guessing this 6-7yr old bit of driftwood not doing anything for the tank and it's out! And may have been an issue in my ph problems. 
Going to do a slight experiment and leave it out for a few days/a week and see if changes to ph. Don't think will cause any problems to fish(?) but have a few other bits in tanks so could pop those in if I need to. 

At the point of trying anything just to figure out this annoying issue!!


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## Blacktetra (Mar 19, 2015)

I suppose the wood leaking tannic acid could be part of it.
You have a kh over 3, and a tap water that comes to a ph above 7, yet this tank is below 7. So strange.
Is it possible that your tap water has a higher ph when it's fresh from the tap, but it sinks after it's left to age for a day? I can't recall now if you had checked that. Some tap water has a bit of gas in it causing the ph to change over time.

I wouldn't change too much more. You've done a pretty thorough cleaning, of both the gravel and the filter, and removed the wood from the tank. You may have really set your beneficial bacteria colony back. Keep an eye on your ammonia over the next day or two if you can, just in case.


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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

Yes definitely very strange which is why I've been so confused! Tried everything and nothing seems to have helped!! 

I tested the tap water (and 24hr 'aged' as well) as soon as started having issues and nothing different to usual. 
We'd had a lot of problems in my area since March when we had snow and again in the heatwave over the summer, burst pipes and people having no tap water etc so thought might have missed something but nope, all ok. 

I tested the tank yest am and ph at 6.4ish. I've just tested again (10am here so 48hrs since removed the wood) and it's showing 6.8!! No nitrite or ammonia thankfully.
Quite a big jump in 2 days!

As half the snails are gone and I've done just about everything I could in the tank to reduce any built up waste or hidden stuff that could have been a problem, seems strange it's changed so quickly if the wood wasn't doing something!! But won't get too excited with the way the tank's been going!

Will be leaving everything in there alone for a while now as like you say, lots of BB gone and messed with it a lot recently.


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## mpoppler (Oct 2, 2018)

Out of curiosity are you testing your pH at approximately the same time each day? Tanks will go through small pH changes throughout the day (diurnal fluctuations), especially tanks with lots of live plants, as pH is influenced by CO2 and carbonic acids levels, as well as the buffering (KH or Alkalinity) of the water, and the GH (general hardness). Like others have mentioned...pH changes (unless way out of balance) aren't usually harmful to our fishy friends. You can do all the testing in the world but sometimes the best indicator is reading animal behavior. It seems like you know your fish well and its great you're so concerned for their well being...keep it up!


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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

Yes I tend to test at the same time (morning) but have done tests at various times in the past and have never had a ph below 6.8-7. Tried evenings recently and no change to the below 6 ph!

I feel like I know the tank just as well as my fish, why this has been a bit of a nightmare to figure out what's going on! Nearly a month of low ph, like @Blacktetra has said, so strange the kh high and ph so low. Always been a really neutral, hard supply of water and tank normally shows that!
Had never crossed my mind my piece of old wood could be causing problems!! 

I know ph isn't going to cause huge probs with the fish, would obv be far more alarmed if it was ammonia etc. More me worrying about my old guys that have been in the tank so long, the levels really haven't changed for years and was stressing would be a bit of a shock to their systems. 

But everyone seems happy so I'm happy! My largest Blue Rainbow boy and smallest girl were getting their 'love thang' on last night so know they're not bothered in the slightest!! 

ph still at 6.8 this morning so def putting this oddity down to rotting wood! 
Had noticed my trio of Otos weren't really sucking on it as much as normal but as got new plants thought was just like a new toy they were more interested in! Should have realised!!


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## Cinnamonamon (Oct 24, 2018)

Hi GobyWan! I am super new to this forum, as well as fishkeeping, so I hesitate to post. However, in my online searching for information about mystery/apple snails, I read that they can deplete calcium a bit, which is apparently related to PH. When I ended up with tons and tons of baby Apples, I noticed my PH dropping a bit & started searching. I ended up dropping a cuttlebone in each tank, and the fish and snails seem happier. I know you don't have many snails, but it might have been a small contributor. Anyway, just thought I'd mention it! 

Your tank is gorgeous, by the way! My first home tank (I "inherited" several at my job when I started last year) just arrived yesterday! I'm completely geeked about getting it set up to keep a nice 5 gallon shrimp colony, along with a couple snails and some nice plants. I'm not telling my husband yet, but I'm already planning for a 20-30 gallon sometime in the next year...I have to find a good place for it in our window filled house first, though!


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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

Sorry a couple of crazy weeks for me!

Thanks a lot, I think my tank's gorgeous but I'm biased!! Thanks for info on snails and cuttlefish bone, have read they're good for the ph and snail shells. 
Just didn't want to mess about too much when tank's been a bit out of whack!

Has been a bit more stable and ph has increased since wood's been out of the tank. 
Have actually moved my baby Lake Kutubu/Blue Rainbow in now! He/she's loving it with all the space! And a bit of non-snail company! 
Not very easy to get a good pic of though!!

Good luck with new tank! Or tanks if you can get away with it  As long as you clean it etc sure you can't get in too much trouble!!


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