# Help! It keeps coming back!



## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

is your tank less than three month old?

pour a coup of fermented apple sauce(blended apple) in the tank and take out the filter media and foam(keep the circulation on), your tank will look gross for a week, then put the filter foam, media back in the filter to clean up the debris. 
more than likely green film algae not gonna come back after this process.
the reason for this is to build the right bacteria culture and they will compete, and green film algae is always the loser.


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

that's a lot of light to have on for ten hours....

i'd suggest you cut the lighting back to around 6 hours..


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

weeks long rain paddles under basking sun always develop the same algae in your tank,
but rain paddles longer than two month old can barely see the green film algae, only green water..
green water then replaced by plants, once the plants start growing..

in the first month, I always cover the surface of new substrate with filter extration from a mature tank. it doesn't look nice, but it helps to prevent green film algae(and to encourage the bacteria culture develop in the substrate).
or you can burry some organic mass in the substrate, algae may appear but disappear pretty soon.

be careful not to burry too much organic mass in new substrate- toxic gas will kill off everything except for the plants, then the tank goes in the opposite direction aganist your will.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

the tank has been running, with fish in and out, since june. so its not brand-new. i cycled it properly, and i actually used old filter media to do it. so i dont know what the problem is. except for the lighting maybe. how much lighting should i have? i can take one of the bubls out, but then half of the tank is shady and the other half bright ( although not as bright as before) or i can decrease the time. how long should i have the lights on? in the past i always had some otos, so a little bit of algae here and there was cleaned up and never became a problem. when i get fish ( soon ) i plan on getting an oto or two, but i still need to find the root of this problem. 

i have this fert. but i havent used it. i thought it would make the algae worse. http://www.petco.com/product/112094...hopping_FishSupplies_ConditionersandAdditives


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## Sharkfood (May 2, 2010)

That product doesn't have the amount of nutrients your tank will need.

Are your lights 2x24W T5HO? I would think that's too much light for a 10 gallon tank. At the very least you would need high CO2 levels and heavy fert dosing. I think you'd need to move the lights up about a foot or more over the tank to get into medium light range.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

i dont think they are t5s. they are normal bulbs, not florescent. what fertilizer do you suggest?


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

orchidman said:


> i dont think they are t5s. they are normal bulbs, not florescent. what fertilizer do you suggest?


Not sure what you mean by this. If they are not florescent then are they incandescent bulbs?


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

Yes, incandescent, I couldnt think of the word. I just remembered that the bulbs I have have are 15watt. Not 25. 

I'm really worried About the algae growing on the sand


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## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

You might want to try some CFL spirals in the 6500k (or daylight) temp bulbs. Incandescent bulbs aren't very well suited for planted tanks, and they give off a great deal off heat. My 10g has two 13 watt CFL spirals, they fit right in where the incandescents were.

You also are probably going to want to do either DIY co2 or Excel. Mine runs fine with one two liter bottle, and my mom's (which is a similar set-up) works great with the recommended dosage of excel. It'll help your plants out, and isn't so nice to algae.

Use your ferts. You should use macros as well (NPK). Don't worry about it having an effect on the algae. What caused the algae is most likely your plants not being healthy. Look into fertilizers a lot, trust me it pays off. roud:

"The goal is to grow healthy plants, not kill algae". They go hand in hand. Work on getting your plants up to par, then be concerned about algae. Healthy plants will "fend off" algae.

Hope that helps. Not trying to sound preachy, just down to business...


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

Is there anyway I can jeep it super low tech? I really can't have co2. And I don't know what excel is. 

I'll get you guys pictures of my light bulbs later. 

What ferts do you recommend?


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

Flourish Excel is a product by Seachem that provides an alternative carbon source for plants. 

In terms of fertilization, you can always use commercially available products, or for a cheaper price, go with dry chemicals.

However, there is nothing stopping you from having a low light, low tech tank, where you will likely not need either of the above.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

That's what I would like! A low light low tech tank. 

My light is ok high right now, so I'll have to find out how much light I need. How much is a good wpg? I'm very new to te whole planted tank idea. Im not new to the basics of aquariums, but I am new to the planted tank. 

So what should I do??


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

orchidman said:


> That's what I would like! A low light low tech tank.
> 
> My light is ok high right now, so I'll have to find out how much light I need. How much is a good wpg? I'm very new to te whole planted tank idea. Im not new to the basics of aquariums, but I am new to the planted tank.
> 
> So what should I do??


Well, no your light is not ok for a planted tank. Incandescent lights are not suitable. Even your basic run of the mill florescent fixture you buy from a pet store would be ok for a low light low tech. You need that and a source of carbon (Excel from Seachem) nitrate, potassium, phosphate and trace elements. You can buy those cheap in powdered form and in a low light low tech set up they will last for years (not the Excel though).


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

okay, is there anyway i can get them all-in-one? im going to the lfs tomorrow, and I would like to get them tomorrow. so can you recommend something i can get? the lfs is petco, if that helps.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

here are some pictures...the whole scape, the light, the fixture, and the screw-in place.

by the way, the tank doesnt look nearly that bright, i used a OB flash


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

orchidman said:


> okay, is there anyway i can get them all-in-one? im going to the lfs tomorrow, and I would like to get them tomorrow. so can you recommend something i can get? the lfs is petco, if that helps.


Probably aren't going to find Excel at most pet stores. Or dry fertilizers. Buy it online. Excel at bigalsonline or drsfostersmith or what ever. Dry ferts from suppliers that advertise here on this site. No rush be patient and get the stuff that works the best and just happens to be the cheapest. You probably can get a cheap florescent fixture at the pet store if you don't want to wait for online shipping to arrive.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

Well, I went to the mrs and thy didn't have any Otos or any nice plants. So I'll go back thursday when they get a new shipment. 

I found some cfls that will fit in my fixture. 

Can someone explain why I need cfl instead of incandescent? I don't really understand. Also, what is a good watts per gallon for a low light tank?


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## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

CFLs produce more light and less heat than incandescent bulbs. That's why they are brighter using less watts, generally much more efficient and won't heat up your tank. The 5000k-6500k (cool or daylight) have the right spectrum to grow plants in, and I'm pretty sure incandescents don't have that.

Two 10 watt bulbs should give you a nice amount of light for low light plants. Two 13 watt bulbs will give you more wiggle room. With Excel and ferts, the plants should grow at a nice slow rate but will remain very healthy. It takes very VERY small amounts of dry ferts to get good results with a low light tank.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

okay, i relly dont like the idea of ordering online. but i will at some point. i think someone said earlier its no rush. so ill probably wait till after Christmas. 

the cfls they had at the lfs were 10 watt. so ill get them. is $10 for one expensive? 

here is that link i forgot to get ( my bad )


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/swap-n-shop/121105-fs-dry-fertilizers.html

will i need any of these ferts?


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## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

I use the regular GE 6500k Daylight CFL spiral bulbs (light the kind you'd use in your regular light sockets). They should be cheaper and work extremely well.

I use all four of those ferts. A half-pound will last you forever.

KNO3= Nitrate (N)
KH2PO4= Phosphorous (P) 
K2SO4= Potassium (K)
CSM+B= Micros


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

+2 on Captivate05s response.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

Captivate05 said:


> I use the regular GE 6500k Daylight CFL spiral bulbs (light the kind you'd use in your regular light sockets). They should be cheaper and work extremely well.
> 
> I use all four of those ferts. A half-pound will last you forever.
> 
> ...



how many watts are they? or does it matter?


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## Aquaticz (Dec 26, 2009)

Your making this more complicated then need be 
more watts equals more power 
I just bought a ton of bulbs - all 2g11 base - 4 pin
I have 4 bulbs on a fixture. 
One 80 tall has 4X 55w with two 8000K bulbs and two 5000K bulbs - looks great
On a 55 gallon I have one of each.... 8000K, 6700k, 5000K & a 9328K

If you want a low light tank on a budget see if you can find a 5K bulb or use a power glo or sunlight bulb


K is simply a matter color. What I strive for is a high CRI ( the higher the better). A lot to know about light - I suggest you start reading the stickies on this site & take some notes so you do not get overwhelmed. 

Over on APC "Hoppy" has a great thread on "par verses distance". The table he put together is based off par readings of diffrent bulbs at varying distances from the substrate. They are clearly marked - so go take a peek & best of luck to you.

PS -even in my low light I dose a small amount weekly ( macro & micro) 

I have a low light tank I keep shrimp in


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

that does help, thanks. i am just trying to do the best thing i can for my tank. 

im still wondering if it matters how many watts MY bulbs have and what i should get, if it matters


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## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

Get two 13watt spirals. Chances are your fixture has a max of 15watts per bulb.

Anything in the 5000k-10000k color range works. 6500k is very popular and easy to find.

Lighting is very confusing when you first start out, there's a lot of mis-information out there and for some weird reason 10g tanks seem to be difficult to outfit. My first planted tank was a 10g, and I had such a headache trying to figure it out.

And yes, wattage matters. More watts, brighter light, higher light.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

i foudn some cfls in the cabinet, they are 15 watts, but they are soft white instead of daylight. but i figure they will be better than the incandescents. although when i put tem in, it seems soo much brighter than the incandescents! that kinda worriees me :\


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Get some Flourish Comprehensive Supplement along with Flourish Excel & dose them both regularly as recommended on the containers, for good low-tech results.
This will do the job, along with appropriate lighting, in the 1 to 1.5 watts per gallon range. If need be, plant growth may be assisted with the use of fert root tabs in the substrate.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

So your saying ferts may not be necessary? It seems easier to use fert tabs if they would do the job. 

What about the lights? Why do try seem so bright?


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

also, you guys meant a cfl with 13W ( equivelant to 60W )? or did you mean a cfl that had the equivelant of 60W?


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## gordonrichards (Jun 20, 2009)

13 Watt, equiv to 60 watts.

That is what everyone means.

It requires a trip to your local Lowes or Home Depot store.

A package of 4 13watt cfl spiral bulbs will cost you about $3.00

Best bulbs to use in a 10 gallon tank.

-Gordon


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

Thanks Gordon! Any reason though, why it seems alot brighter with the cfls than with the incandescents?


You can call me Bob


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## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

Because very little amount of the energy used is for heat. Incandescent bulbs produce a lot of heat while producing light. For the same wattage, the florescent bulbs produce about four times the light output.

That's why they are considered eco-friendly, btw. We use them in every light socket, because they cost so much less to use.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

Okay I see. But if cfls produce more light per watt, than how would this help if my tank has algae from too much light? ( one of the reasons for the algae. Not the only reason)


You can call me Bob


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## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

I'm thinking what's causing your problems isn't too much light, but unhealthy plants. Algae will take advantage of low light as well, and if the plants are not healthy it gives them an edge. Algae requirements are _much_ lower than higher order plants.

My guess is that your plants are probably slowly dying. They aren't getting what they need. So by giving them the correct light, ferts, and a carbon source, they will recover and have an edge over the algae.

Your first concern should be getting your plants healthy, then working on the algae. I have a feeling that your algae problem will go away on it's own once you meet the plants requirements roud:


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

Okay! Thankyou. I really was having a harrying getting a straight up answer. 

I'll get those lights. Than I'll have to get sown ferts and excel. Is excel really necessary? I have heard of ppl who don't use it and ive heard of people who say it isn't possible to have a nice tank without it. 

Would fertilizer pegs be okay? So I don't have to dose. 


You can call me Bob


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

got the lights, they are nice, and they are on a timer. 

any opinioons on just going the fert. tabs route?

where can i get excel?


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

You could try just the fertilizer tabs, but you may have to eventually get the liquid fertilizer, if your plants start to show deficiencies. 

Alternatively, you can always get bulk chemicals; they will be much cheaper than any commercially available products.

As for Flourish Excel, you should be able to purchase that at your local fish store.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

Someone told me I couldn't get it at a Lfs I'd have to order it. 

Can you recommend some tabs that I can get at the Lfs 


You can call me Bob


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

You can get Excel from the places suggested in previous posts. You need it now since you have increased your lighting. Plants need carbon (Excel), nitrate, potassium, phosphate and trace elements. Get all of those things in some form. Fert tabs can supplement but you probably will get better results dosing the water column rather than root tabs only.


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

orchidman said:


> Someone told me I couldn't get it at a Lfs I'd have to order it.
> 
> Can you recommend some tabs that I can get at the Lfs
> 
> ...


I believe I said you're not _likely_ to find it at a pet store. I haven't seen any in the pet stores in my area. (Rochester ny) Almost everything you buy will be cheaper online than at your lfs.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

why cant i decrease my light levels again, so i dont need excel?

thanks for your help


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

orchidman said:


> why cant i decrease my light levels again, so i dont need excel?
> 
> thanks for your help


Yes, you can do that. How will you decrease them? I'm not referring to how long the lights are on but light intensity.


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## Aquaticz (Dec 26, 2009)

you can 
It sounds like you really want a low light tank. I have both high & low light tanks & the low light are less work. I still dose but maybe once a week, no excel & no CO2 needed for low light. I'd still use root tabs. PersonallyI find root tabs to be expensive, that is why I use ( like some others) Osmocote Plus in gel caps, you get it at the Home Depot
HTH


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

Aquaticz said:


> you can
> It sounds like you really want a low light tank. I have both high & low light tanks & the low light are less work. I still dose but maybe once a week, no excel & no CO2 needed for low light. I'd still use root tabs. PersonallyI find root tabs to be expensive, that is why I use ( like some others) Osmocote Plus in gel caps, you get it at the Home Depot
> HTH


Could you describe your low light set up? Size (gallons and dimensions), light fixture, photo period, substrate ect.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

MarkMc said:


> Could you describe your low light set up? Size (gallons and dimensions), light fixture, photo period, substrate ect.


Yes please describe it!!

I do really want a low tech tank. 

I was thinking I could decrease the light by unscrewing one of the two 13w cfls. I'm not sure if this is the correct way to calculate wpg,but that would still be more than 1wpg. 


You can call me Bob


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

If your tank has a glass cover you can buy window screen material from the local Lowes/Home Depot and put it on top of the glass cover. Double it up if you need to block more light. Oh, btw I did find Excel in a pet store today. It was almost $9 for about 8.5 oz.


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## neilshieh (Sep 6, 2010)

i read the first page and then skipped to the last so... :/ 
an alternative you can consider would be metricide 14 or other glut containing substances... excel is pretty pricey... but smells nice 
for co2 you can do diy co2, i have a heavily planted 20 long with diy co2 powering it.
buy ferts otherwise with so much light algae will flourish 
get dry ferts and liquid ferts:
flourish comprehensive, some form of excel, mono potassium phosphate, kno3


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## Aquaticz (Dec 26, 2009)

So the low light tankI have is a 40 gallon. The substrate is mostly 1/4 " X 3/8 " natural river rock. I used play sand from Home Depot for the sand look in the front of the tank.
I use am ebojager heater with a 2215 eheim cannister filter . The light is a single T-8bulb by corallife wwhat is called a 50/50 25W. As for plants I currently have no list but as you can see there is nothing special. The plants in this tank came from my otherbtwo high light tanks. 

The photos are here 
http://photos.rbkkinspects.com/


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

Aquaticz said:


> So the low light tankI have is a 40 gallon. The substrate is mostly 1/4 " X 3/8 " natural river rock. I used play sand from Home Depot for the sand look in the front of the tank.
> I use am ebojager heater with a 2215 eheim cannister filter . The light is a single T-8bulb by corallife wwhat is called a 50/50 25W. As for plants I currently have no list but as you can see there is nothing special. The plants in this tank came from my otherbtwo high light tanks.
> 
> The photos are here
> http://photos.rbkkinspects.com/


Thanks for sharing that. Just like to point out to the OP that he is running a single 25 watt fluorescent bulb over a 36" tank (correct me if that is not the case) which is a lot less light than 2 13w spiral fluorescent concentrated over a 10 gallon tank.The 40 is 17" deep and the 10 is 12" deep. It's only 1 watt difference but it is way more light in the 10 gallon set up.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

MarkMc said:


> Thanks for sharing that. Just like to point out to the OP that he is running a single 25 watt fluorescent bulb over a 36" tank (correct me if that is not the case) which is a lot less light than 2 13w spiral fluorescent concentrated over a 10 gallon tank.The 40 is 17" deep and the 10 is 12" deep. It's only 1 watt difference but it is way more light in the 10 gallon set up.


then why cant i simply take one of the bulbs out?

also, i bought the bulbs that were recommended.


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

Well you certainly can but you will have a good amount of light (from a small source sure) from a concentrated point. You might experience algae problems directly under the light and poor plant growth in the half of the tank that has no light over it.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

Okay, I see how that could be a problem. 


You can call me Bob


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

What if I got lights that were less powerful? 

Or should the problem clear up once I get my ferts and excel?

You can call me Bob


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## Aquaticz (Dec 26, 2009)

Hey Bob
This is what I think. You need to go for it. Plants are driven to grow by light, CO2 and nutrients. They are vert inexpensive. Excel is used by those who think they can not afford Co2. They are wrong. However excel is used by the big guys. They use it mostly to keep algea under control . Forget about buying it in small bottles- buy the real big one (30 bucks)
On to light.... Yes you can decrease it but your plant growth will be even slower. The amount of light drives the amount of Co2 needed... But they also need those nutrients. So how many hours do you want to keep your lights on? With or without excel? Lastly what ferts? Some, none??? You will not get a straight answer because of the variables, heat? Natural light? Substrate? Photo period? Mass of plants in the tank? See what I mean Bob? Took me a while and I have a ways to go myself. Hope this helps


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

so i kept the fixture the way it was, and i set up DIY CO2. i set it up friday, so it hasnt had a chance to show improvement. but we will see what happens.


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