# Ok, what´s the best filter for the 75 gal.? What about overflow/sump?



## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

Please tell me what brand would be top of the line, what would be the DON`T GETs and if you can, models and some sites to look at.
I´ve been looking the threads but still confused.
If you can post your experiences with the 75gal. and explain the facts...
I really appreciate.
Echinodorus.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'd personally go with a combo of 2x Rena XP3s or Eheim 2217s. Whichever I could find the best deal on at the time. I prefer to have 2 intakes and 2 outputs on a long tank b/c it helps with both flow and mechanical filtration (picking up debris from both sides of the tank).

I'm currently running an XP4 and an AquaClear 110 on my 90gal, but I'm going to swap out the AC with a new XP3 (b/c the durn lid keeps rattling loose and drives me batty).


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

A matter of opinion of course, but mine is that the best filter for a 75 gallon tank is two filters, two Eheim 2028s, or two Eheim 2217s, or a combination thereof. Two Rena XP3s would do also. Filter ratings do not take into account flow reduction that occurs in a planted tank, and dual filters allows for split cycle cleaning of the two and redundancy.


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

I´m planing to make an overflow box, if Perfecto glass tanks are ok to drill (not tempered). I contacted Perfecto but they didn´t respond yet.

Then I´ll make a sump and place the filter conected to that. In that case, do I still need the 2 filters for filtration? We can always place small powerheads in the tank also.

Unless for a planted tank would be good to have more filtration (media/bacteria).
Another thing would be place the return for the sump in the tank and also the filter directly connected (inlet/outlet) to the tank for extra circulation.
I did a search on Eheim and those 2028s look good to me. Maybe I could buy one at a time, if need 2.
What about overflow in a planted tank? Does anyone do that?

I don´t mind to have 2 Eheims 2028 if that would make a great difference and it´s necessary or make my life easier, because I can wait and buy when I can also. Still have to make money to buy CO2, substrate, light fixture...

Thanks for the info!
Echinodorus.


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

I've run sumps before your better off with canisiters as its easier to keep the co2 from outgassing. also most tanks now adays have tempered botoms.

Craig


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

lauraleellbp said:


> ... I'm currently running an XP4 and an AquaClear 110 on my 90gal, but I'm going to swap out the AC with a new XP3 (b/c the durn lid keeps rattling loose and drives me batty).


Just take that rattling AC filter lid off. This is what I do with mine. I can't stand it either. Also, I've never had an AC filter overflow with the lid off. My two AC's are the 70 model.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Left C said:


> Just take that rattling AC filter lid off. This is what I do with mine. I can't stand it either. Also, I've never had an AC filter overflow with the lid off. My two AC's are the 70 model.


Yeah the problem with that is I've got 4 furry pets in this household; they all especially love hanging out with me in my office so there would be nonstop pet hair in the filter. Ugh. I tried putting something heavy on it - and it rattled right into the tank! LOL The XP3 should be here soon, so problem solved.


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

Craigthor said:


> I've run sumps before your better off with canisiters as its easier to keep the co2 from outgassing. also most tanks now adays have tempered botoms.
> 
> Craig


Thanks a lot Craightor! Perfecto said that only the bottom glass is tempered, but my hole will be on the side. 
Question: How is that the CO2 outgass easier with an overflow?
Could you please provide any articles or other source of info on that? Not that I don´t trust you. You must say that because you had your experience, of course, but I don´t see why. Maybe you were using hight flow sump. I´m planning to run low flow rate. The reason is to export the protein scum that blocks the light and affects the gas exchange in any type of system. Note: it´s not an wet-dry, only a circulation box.

If you have/had sump please post to help me understand. I wanna hear from you.

Thanks,
Echinodorus.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

I use an one ocean clear filter driven by a Iwaki WMD-40RLT...its great! 
The pump is louder than canisters and does use a lot of power, so those are two issues you need to think about with this kind of set-up. 
Its nice on a rimless tank, like mine, because I run bulkheads in the bottom of the tank and you can hide all the equipment. 
Here is a thread with some of my equipment...
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...07-rimless-75-gallon-close-loop-filter-2.html

If you buy the pump and filters used (ebay or on SNS) you can do it cheaper than 2 canister filters. That was what convinced me to do it that way.... Plus my flow is amazing and filtration is excelent. I would agree that the other good option would be two renas or eheims.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Outgassing is caused when there is higher surface area of water to air...CO2 is a gas, so it goes off into the atomosphere easily. For this reason, sumps are usually not used in planted tanks with CO2 injection. 

As far as scum goes...I use 2 black mollies in my tanks to keep the scum away. May sound crazy, but it works! They seem to scury around the surface churning/eating? the scum.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

The issue with an overflow is that you have to make sure the tank is constantly topped off or you will lose the CO2 when it falls into the overflow chamber, and can have the same issue with the waterfalls in the sump, depending on the design of the sump.

In the end, if you've got a big enough CO2 tank and a good controller, you should be able to compensate by increasing the CO2 being pumped into the tank, but it's just one more thing that can make the levels fluctuate depending on the water level in the tank.


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## rich815 (May 21, 2008)

I have two filters running on my 72 gal. Both eheims, a 2026 and 2028. The 2026 has an inline DIY PVC CO2 reactor on the outflow and the 2028 is the main filter and has an inline heater on the outflow. 

I ran the 2028 alone for almost a year before I went higher light and with CO2 and based on specs it supposedly enough for a 72 gal tank. 

I specifically bought the 2026 to run the CO2 reactor inline. After 2 days of the additional filter on there I simply had NO IDEA just how clean and crystal clear my tank could really look. It is simply gorgeous. 

Ignorance was bliss before with only my 2028, I thought all was fine, how wrong I was. I am now a big proponent of "overfiltering". Certainly does not hurt and really helps in keeping the CO2 dispersed around the tank too.


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## smooththg69 (Jul 23, 2008)

It can be done with minimal co2 loss I'm currently running a 72gal bow with built in overflow an have minimal loses it just takes a lot of tinkering but if you do think of wet dry the best thing you can do is seal the the top of the unit with duct tape or some kind of gasket. If done properly the wet dry acts some what like a big reactor. also adjust the overflow so the water dosent fall more that 2 inches or so. the up side is you have less equipment in the tank and never really have to top the tank off because the wet dry filter compensates. I do miss my canister though.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

At the risk of being the odd man out, I can't let this become an all Eheim response. I have a Fluval 405 on my 70 and I've had zero problems thus far. I just purchased a second 405 to add to it. 

P.S. I reserve the right to complain about anything in the future, up until and including the moment I die!


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## taekwondodo (Apr 16, 2006)

Craigthor said:


> I've run sumps before your better off with canisiters as its easier to keep the co2 from outgassing. also most tanks now adays have tempered botoms.
> 
> Craig


Agreed - the amount of CO2 I'm losing with water falling into my sump is un-friggen-believable. I'm redoing things at Christmas to fix this (I'll still have a sump, but it will not be for filtration at all and be "off" most of the time... I'll use it for dosing, have it on a timer, and use it to keep a constant water level in the main tank - that's it).

I've got CO2 pumping in so fast right now just to keep my DC slightly yellow, I couldn't count the bps with a high-speed camera!

- Jeff


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

I want to thank everyone!!!!

I´ll still have the Eheim for filtration on my 75gal. Probably the 2028. Even if I really want to do the overflow/sump.

I don´t like wet-dry filtration at all. 

There must be a reason for the CO2 been dissipated so fast from your tanks with sumps besides the fact that the surface of the water is overflowing to a sump. That´s not a racional explanation. When the gas CO2 is released close to the bottom of the tank (or mid way)on the opposite side of the overflow that shoudn´t be a big problem. Again, if one makes the high flow plan, that will do it. The high flow to the sump will drive CO2 out of the display down the pipe. 

Sooner or later, in any system, some of the CO2 gas will reach the surface to be dissipated into the air anyway.

The plan here is to hold the CO2 in the water for longer regardless of the type of set up, right?

It would be great to hear more people posting about overflows in planted tanks.

Yeah, I´ll need to make that money for my Eheim 2028...
Hummm.
Thanks again.
Echinodorus.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Equinodorus said:


> There must be a reason for the CO2 been dissipated so fast from your tanks with sumps besides the fact that the surface of the water is overflowing to a sump. That´s not a racional explanation.


Why not? High water to air interface=high outgasing=water overflow. seems rational to me...


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## taekwondodo (Apr 16, 2006)

shake a can of soda and see what happens (I prefer this experiment with Diet Coke) - it's CO2 that's making the explosion. Or, just pour the can out as slow as you can onto a flat surface area. Watch what happens. CO2 doesn't _like_ to be dissolved in water and will easily come out. Large surface areas, turbulence (like an over-flow, and the tubing down to the sump, and the water rolling in the sump as it exits) will get most of the CO2 out of the water. The more "pump" (GPH) you roll through there, the faster you are putting CO2-less water into your tank.

I would not use a standard sump as a filter, there are much better options. I use mine to maintain a fixed water level in the tank and to throw ferts and stuff in.

Night before last I put a gate-valve and slowed the circulation to/from my sump to a trickle, and it's made a huge difference. There are other ways to handle this... sealing the sump is one - but I like the ease-of-access for adding water (don't want to be pulling Saran-wrap off every time I want to access it, for the reasons I use it).


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

"Why not? High water to air interface=high outgasing=water overflow. seems rational to me... "

Yes, high flow,,, yes.

"shake a can of soda and see what happens (I prefer this experiment with Diet Coke) - it's CO2 that's making the explosion. Or, just pour the can out as slow as you can onto a flat surface area. Watch what happens. CO2 doesn't like to be dissolved in water and will easily come out."

Nah, can´t think compressed saturated cans of soda with an ope air interface system. No way. Sorry

"Large surface areas, turbulence (like an over-flow, and the tubing down to the sump, and the water rolling in the sump as it exits) will get most of the CO2 out of the water. "

Yes, some. Not most.

"The more "pump" (GPH) you roll through there, the faster you are putting CO2-less water into your tank."

Yes, I totally agree.

"I would not use a standard sump as a filter, there are much better options. I use mine to maintain a fixed water level in the tank and to throw ferts and stuff in."

I would never use a standard pump as a filter. That´s impossible. I said that I would use a Eheim 2028 as a filter.

"Night before last I put a gate-valve and slowed the circulation to/from my sump to a trickle, and it's made a huge difference."

There you go! You got that now. 

"There are other ways to handle this... sealing the sump is one - but I like the ease-of-access for adding water (don't want to be pulling Saran-wrap off every time I want to access it, for the reasons I use it)." 

Hehe, do you think to seal with tape will handle gas for long? Nope, sorry, If it´s a wet-dry it will be really bad for your nitrification. Bacterias will need O2, not excess CO2.

This topic is getting hot! I wish more people could participate.
I want to thank you one more time for your posts and appreciate you participation.

helgymatt & taekwondodo:

I respect your opinion, don´t get me wrong. I still couldn´t be convinced yet. Who am I to say that you are 100% wrong. Anyone here that have a planted tank knows more than me because I never did. Just think that you could try improve your system´s configuration before totally condem the overflow/sump possibilities in a planted tank.

Of course... no overflow... good for you. Overflow... play with the flow/circulation rate. But I like the overflow a lot and would really want to be able to have it. I´ll do a search on that...
Thanks again my friends.
Anyone else?
Any articles on that? Please..

Echinodorus.


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

I moved the topic Oveflow / sump out of this thread:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g.../78326-overflow-sump-planted-tank-yes-no.html

Thanks gain friends.


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## lovelandbmxrider (Dec 6, 2008)

i like amirical (spelled wrong i know)


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## taekwondodo (Apr 16, 2006)

I'm not going to debate what I've clearly stated are my experiences. 

My only other recommendation is for you to try it for a few years and see for yourself if you have the same challenges and reoccurring issues, and come to the same conclusion I and many others have. 

As a filter, there are much better ways to go. CO2 loss is experienced and noticeable unless you do a lot of tinkering. Most of that tinkering is a PITA.

Again, what I like a sump/overflow for:
1) Keeps constant water level in the tank - just make sure there's enough, and not too much (if the pump shuts off, the sump could overflow - been there, done that), water in the sump. However, this could be achieved easily with an ATO (see reefing DIY)
2) The overflow keeps the surface of the tank's water crystal clean,
3) The sump is a place to throw ferts

Have at it 

- Jeff

[for the record, I'll keep my sump for reasons 1-3 above.]


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

taekwondodo:
I want to thank you very much for posting and trying to help me out with this. I´ll try the overflow unless someone comes with scientific explanation regarding the CO2 and have done the experiment in the same type of set up I want to make (low flow).

The reason I want the overflow/sump are the 3 points you mentioned. Right on!

Thanks again.
Best regards,
Echinodorus.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Equinodorus said:


> taekwondodo:
> I want to thank you very much for posting and trying to help me out with this. I´ll try the overflow unless someone comes with scientific explanation regarding the CO2 and have done the experiment in the same type of set up I want to make (low flow).
> 
> The reason I want the overflow/sump are the 3 points you mentioned. Right on!
> ...


You will find the CO2 issues mentioned all over this forum...I would be more cautious, rather than just assuming all of these comments are not worthy. Its not really scientific...People get rid of their sumps/overflows and find they need to add way less CO2. What more evidence do you want? Now if you are fine with excess CO2 loss, then go for it. After all, CO2 is cheap.


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

helgymatt:

I´m considering all opinions. I´m a begginer and know that I need to learn basically all about planted tanks. My opinion is not definitive yet and that´s why i´m posting here. I need you guys to help me choose because of your experiences. 

But... if you read the topic carefully you will see that every system is different and the differences can change opinions and facts. Not all are against the overflow/sump set up.

If the people write more about what and how they did the plan it could help much more to understand and decide.

I don´t think anyone wrote an article with comparison between yes and no for overflow/sump use in planted aquarium. If had, I would think that it would be posted already.

Please don´t think that I am not taking in consideration all of your posts! 

Thanks again. I won´t ignore your words either.
I´ll keep searching.
Echinodorus.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Equinodorus said:


> helgymatt:
> 
> I´m considering all opinions. I´m a begginer and know that I need to learn basically all about planted tanks. My opinion is not definitive yet and that´s why i´m posting here. I need you guys to help me choose because of your experiences.
> 
> ...


Gotcha...just don't expect a lot of people to come forward and talk about sumps/overflows, because not many use them. Most go with some kind of canisters. Try some digging around this site,,,http://www.barrreport.com/

I know Tom Barr and some others have used them and commented about pros and cons a lot. Here is one thread where you will learn a lot from. http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquat...32-mazzei-uv-placement.html?highlight=venturiYou can ignore the stuff about mazzei and UV if you like. Much of that LONG thread is about the guys sump issues, but there are some canister/pump filtration units described too. In the end I think they guy decided the sump was not worth the effort and tinkering.


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## Joetee (Mar 28, 2006)

I personally like the Fluval 405's and would use 2 of them. I have a 205 on my 29 that has been in use for about 3 years. And a 405 on my 50 that I've used for maybe 6 months.

In my experience, in any planted tank that is at least 24 inches wide, It seems that two filters is always better. One reason is for water flow. I would place each of the filter outputs in the back of each corner and both intakes in the middle of the back.
Another reason for two is for cleaning. You can clean one filter at a time to preserve bacteria.

Joetee


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## taekwondodo (Apr 16, 2006)

I just performed a quick observation -

pH of tank: 6.3 (~60ppm of CO2)
pH of sump: 6.8 (~19ppm of CO2)
Water dkh = ~4

Remember, earlier in the week, I significantly slowed-down the flow through and back to the tank - at the slow rate, I am losing *68.3%* of the CO2 I'm injecting into the tank as the water flows through the sump.

OUCH!

(using a calibrated Milwaukee meter)


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

Humm, that´s a fact right there. Thank you so much!!!
Could you do me a huge favor:

Do not change anything with the system.
I´m assuming that there is a timer for the lights on your system.
I would like you to remeassure the pH again at the same time after 24 hours in both (display and sump). 
The meassurements shouldn´t change or should show almost same values.
Then stop the flow going to the sump completely and remeassure the pH for both (display and sump) after 24 hours.
If the pH for the display is lower than before it should be true and would be a proof of the "theory".

Are you actually measuring the CO2 also, or comming to a pH/CO2 conclusion?

If you are meassuring CO2, please do that again together with the pH, would you?

How many gallons is the sump?

Good job! Thanks a lot.
Echinodorus.


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## taekwondodo (Apr 16, 2006)

The sump is a 10-gallon sump, but generally holds ~4-8 gallons between fills. I'm not sure why stopping the water going the sump is any different than letting water sit in a glass cup (like the one I left on top of the stand this morning - I can read that pH when I get home if the wife doesn't do anything with it). The tank's pH is controlled to stop at 6.3, so turning off the sump will only save CO2 in the tank, so,the 24 hour test would only apply to water outside the tank (and I'm NOT turning the CO2 off for 24 hours, as I'm at the tail-end of an algae outbreak as a result of other issues I've recently resolved and don't want to let-up on the progress  ).

And, without a few grand, I can't measure the CO2 directly. But as the water in the sump is the same as the water in the tank, the only delta would be any de-gassing it experiences on it's way from the tank to the sump.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

What about the 2076 or 2078 Eheim Professional 3e?
http://www.eheimasiapacific.com/prod_e_extfilter_pro3e.html
http://www.eheim.com/base/eheim/inhalte/index8baf.html?key=liniendetail_28383_ehen


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

Ok...

Your sump size is perfect.

Let me explain... I wanted to know if when you stop using the sump the CO2 would kinda accumulate somehow in the display tank because you said that you are loosing 68% of your CO2 injected. That´s a lot man!!!! If you are really thinking that it´s that much gas lost because of your sump you should stop using the sump. Or at least do the test. So simple...

Stop the flow of sump (don´t overflow the water from tank) and test after 24 hours at least without automatic CO2 controler.

You would need to remove the pH control, yes. Because of your problem with the algae and your choice not to do the test, I can´t really rely on the difference of (display/sump) pH.

I really don´t want you to come up with another trouble with algae because of me.

Thanks a lot anyway for your observation.
I really appreciate your help.

Echinodorus.


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

Yeah, that filter is amazing! I´ll take in consideration when I´m ready to buy.
Thanks Left C!
Echinodorus.


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## Bowles42 (Mar 5, 2008)

I run a Fluval FX5 on my 75g, and have had no problems. I've used smaller Fluvals before, like the 404 and have had problems with rattling and leaks, but I would recommend the FX5 to anyone.


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

Thanks Bowles42. More people were talking about leaks on Fluvals. I think I´ll stay away from those for my 75gal. I´ve got a 20gal. holding my baby angels in it for now with a Fluval 404 running. Thanks.
Echinodorus.


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## taekwondodo (Apr 16, 2006)

Equinodorus said:


> Ok...
> Let me explain... I wanted to know if when you stop using the sump the CO2 would kinda accumulate somehow in the display tank because you said that you are loosing 68% of your CO2 injected. That´s a lot man!!!! If you are really thinking that it´s that much gas lost because of your sump you should stop using the sump. Or at least do the test. So simple...
> 
> Stop the flow of sump (don´t overflow the water from tank) and test after 24 hours at least without automatic CO2 controller.
> ...


Turning off the controller or anything else proves nothing - there are too many variables (surface area, turbulence, etc...). The proof here is that when water exits the tank and goes down the tubing into the sump, it loses 68% of the CO2. If you want results from that type of experiment, simply ask someone without a sump how long CO2 lasts in the tank when they turn off the controller...

In my case: I'm essentially "changing" the water as it moves through the sump, replacing 60ppm C02 water with 20ppm water. The faster I do that (by controlling the rate of flow through the sump), the more CO2 I need to inject into the tank to keep the steady-state 60ppm. 

If I stopped injection, losing 68% as water continually cycles through the sump, I would very quickly have the pH in the tank rise, and the pH in the sump rise till the CO2 levels were almost non-existent (same as the external air) as both the sump/tank approached equilibrium with the air.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

taekwondodo said:


> Turning off the controller or anything else proves nothing - there are too many variables (surface area, turbulence, etc...). The proof here is that when water exits the tank and goes down the tubing into the sump, it loses 68% of the CO2. If you want results from that type of experiment, simply ask someone without a sump how long CO2 lasts in the tank when they turn off the controller...
> 
> In my case: I'm essentially "changing" the water as it moves through the sump, replacing 60ppm C02 water with 20ppm water. The faster I do that (by controlling the rate of flow through the sump), the more CO2 I need to inject into the tank to keep the steady-state 60ppm.
> 
> If I stopped injection, losing 68% as water continually cycles through the sump, I would very quickly have the pH in the tank rise, and the pH in the sump rise till the CO2 levels were almost non-existent (same as the external air) as both the sump/tank approached equilibrium with the air.


Why do you need 60ppm of CO2? That is really high. Do you have fish in there?


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

I mean to stop the controller, not the injection:

Make the injection constant. 
Make sure it´s lower than it could give you algae problems.
Make sure turn injection off at night (solenoid).
After couple of days (to let pH sattle) measure the pH in sump and in display.
Turn off sump flow completelly. 
Wait 24 hours.
Measure pH of display. 
The pH should remain almost the same as first day measurement (display).

Independent of the experiment:

Depending of your flow and internal circulation, you will loose virtually no CO2 because of the overflow.

I want you to know that you normally loose CO2 from the water surface. Even if there is no overflow running on that system. In that case, depending of the water circulation and position of difuser you will loose more or less CO2 to the atmosphere.
I hope you know that.

Well, I´m just trying to help you understand that your aquarium still can have that overflow and run without major problems. The minimum CO2 lost because of the water movement (degassing) is not a reason to change any configuration.

I think that if you really assume that your system is not doing well, or could get better without the overflow/sump you should start making another plan for your system soonn and remove the overflow/sump set up. I wish you luck and hope someone else can explain better than me, with his/hers own experiences regarding the issue. 


The point here is:
Nobody can just state that CO2 degassing in an aquarium with an overflow is higher than the same aquarium without that overflow with the same configuration, if he or she didin´t actually tested (removed the overflow). Period.


Thanks again my friend,
Echinodorus.


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

helgymatt: Your aquarium is beautiful! Congratulations.
Echinodorus.


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## taekwondodo (Apr 16, 2006)

Equinodorus said:


> The point here is:
> Nobody can just state that CO2 degassing in an aquarium with an overflow is higher than the same aquarium without that overflow with the same configuration, if he or she didin´t actually tested (removed the overflow). Period.
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know what else I can do to prove it to you. One moment, the water has a pH of 6.3, moments later, those same ions of water are in the sump at 6.8... minus the CO2.

Same water.

Seems pretty straight forward to me.


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

How much is the overflow rate (GPH of return pump will tell you that)? 

Best configuration for the overflow to me would be to have the diffuser under it (bottom of overflow area) with a flow running the oposite way to keep bubbles in the system´s water long enogh.

The fact that the pH in sump is higher could and possibly means that CO2 is lower, but it could be that when the water goes to the sump is already without most of the CO2 dissolved in water and taken by plants and out of surface´s water (degassing to atmorphere). That´s why it´s not a proof yet.

So, that doesn´t proof to me that for sure absolutely the overflow is "taking" (by degassing)alone the CO2 from the water. Because could be that the water that goes to the overflow is already with less CO2.

Could be...

If you stop the flow and the CO2 gets much higher (lower pH), than we can try believe!

The fact that the water sump is going up to the display again doesn´t count because the balance of the system (sump and display) is what matters and depends on the concentration of CO2 in the display tank, not the sump, simply because the plants are the focus (meaning) of the CO2 injection.

The biochemistry in sump is not the same as in display.

We always get the little difference reading pH from sump to display in any system because they are different environments too. That´s not a huge gap. 

Are you going to measure the pH of your Canister? That´s a different environment too. Did you know that? The water´s pH form canister could and probably is different than your display tank.

Got it now?

Echinodorus.


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

Canister is a sealed systems where as a Sump is a open to the air. Alot of degassing happens in a sump due the the water falling down the pipes to the sump and through any wet dry media. If you look at most planted tanks water agitation is kept to a minimum to reduce any out gasssing of CO2. Canisters don't allow air contact with the media or internal parts so there is no degassing.


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

Yeah, I noticed that Craigthor. You´re right on your posting.

How much is the internal flow normally for a 75 gal. planted tank with CO2 injection?

Do you agree with 2 canisters?


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## taekwondodo (Apr 16, 2006)

Equinodorus said:


> <snip>
> The fact that the pH in sump is higher could and possibly means that CO2 is lower, but it could be that when the water goes to the sump is already without most of the CO2 dissolved in water and taken by plants and out of surface´s water (degassing to atmorphere). That´s why it´s not a proof yet.


I know what you are saying, and it makes _no _sense at all.

The tank has _significant _flow. I can move the meter probe around the tank and read the same 6.3 throughout the tank. That's the water (the 6.3) that goes down the sump. It's all the same water in the tank. The ONLY difference is what happens to the water when it leaves the tank, AT 6.3, and arrives AT the sump at 6.8. In that SHORT time, there are no plants involved... there are no biological aspects "sucking" the CO2 out of the tank water prior to it leaving the tank, or while it's in the sump...

I think I've made my point.

- Jeff


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

Equinodorus said:


> Yeah, I noticed that Craigthor. You´re right on your posting.
> 
> How much is the internal flow normally for a 75 gal. planted tank with CO2 injection?
> 
> Do you agree with 2 canisters?


I've run as much as 1000gph on a 75. just depends on alot of factors. Tank, style of planting, quantity or plants fish, etc...

For a 75 I would recommend one of the eheims 2060 or 2260 if you want 2 go with 2 2217 or 2 of the Pro series.

Craig


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

Craigthor said:


> ...For a 75 I would recommend one of the eheims 2060 or 2260 if you want 2 go with 2 2217 or 2 of the Pro series.
> 
> Craig


In your opinion what´s the best one?

What kind of maintenance and how often do you for the protein scum?

Others are welcome!
Thanks.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

taekwondodo said:


> I know what you are saying, and it makes _no _sense at all.
> 
> The tank has _significant _flow. I can move the meter probe around the tank and read the same 6.3 throughout the tank. That's the water (the 6.3) that goes down the sump. It's all the same water in the tank. The ONLY difference is what happens to the water when it leaves the tank, AT 6.3, and arrives AT the sump at 6.8. In that SHORT time, there are no plants involved... there are no biological aspects "sucking" the CO2 out of the tank water prior to it leaving the tank, or while it's in the sump...
> 
> ...


I agree.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Equinodorus said:


> In your opinion what´s the best one?
> 
> What kind of maintenance and how often do you for the protein scum?
> 
> ...


Protein scum...we are not running salt water tanks here....
I have said this before, but nobody seems to take any sense in it...If you have any kinda surface scum, put one or two black mollies in the tank. It works every time for me. I would think any kind of molly would work. 

Thanks for the nice comment about the tank!


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

either one the 2060 and 2062 are the same just one has a larger pump. I used a tee fitting with the eheim surface skimmer inline with the intake.

I would go for the bigger of the 2 the 2062 or 2260 which ever one it is. 

Craig


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

eheim surface skimmer inline with the intake?


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Are you not interested in the Eheim Pro 3e's?



Left C said:


> What about the 2076 or 2078 Eheim Professional 3e?
> http://www.eheimasiapacific.com/prod_e_extfilter_pro3e.html
> http://www.eheim.com/base/eheim/inhalte/index8baf.html?key=liniendetail_28383_ehen


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

It will depend on my money. Can´t buy nothing right now.

But yeah, it´s nice...


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## adstudio3d (Jun 8, 2007)

I may have missed a few posts, but I haven't seen anyone suggest a good compromise to using a wetdry/sump...

If you have your regulator on a solenoid and control the time it turns on and off, why not have the sump on a timer as well? Just make sure your return tube is the same level as the overflow so your water level does not change when you turn the powers off, and don't have to worry about flooding the sump or reverse siphoning.

Have your Co2 kick in the same time your sump shuts off, and power on the sump when the lights and Co2 turn off. That way you get the benefits of having a sump without the huge Co2 losses.


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

Yeah, I was thinking to do that sometimes while on the discussion. 
Have you done that? 
Do you have a sump?
That might be one of the solution for the fresh water systems with CO2 injection.
I won´t have a wet-dry.

Nice tip! Thanks for posting.


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## adstudio3d (Jun 8, 2007)

I have a 55gal tank with a 40gal wetdry/sump. I stopped using my sump until I get a new overflow, I was using a DIY overflow and had some issues with it, luckily I was home to shut off the return pump =) It was a fish only tank but I'm converting it to a plant tank so I'm redoing this setup:

55gal tank
Aquaclear 110 + some whisper filter - Will be running 24hrs
40gal sump - going to turn on 1hr after lights out and off 1hr before lights on.
pressurized Co2 - Turn on 1hr before lights on and off at lights out.
3 timers - 1 for lights, 1 for Co2, 1 for sump

I like the idea of having the extra room for bio material, filter media, and ease of adding water so the sump is great to have. 

My only concern now is will this setup create too large of swings in PH by turning sump on and off everyday? Not sure if this would stress sensitive fish or cause algae blooms???
If anyone has done this yet I'm really interested in hearing your feedback.


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

"...My only concern now is will this setup create too large of swings in PH by turning sump on and off everyday? Not sure if this would stress sensitive fish or cause algae blooms???..."

Not too bad if you set the sump´s timer for on and off 3 time a day. Nothing wrong with that.
CO2 would be off at night.

People don´t even like to think about that type of things because they are used to the conventional fresh water set up. Fine with me. This is a hobby and everyone get their own tastes. That is what makes things different.

I´m glad I´ve got to know this forum. I´ve been learning a lot in the last days!

Cheers to all!!
Echinodorus.


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

adstudio3d said:


> If you have your regulator on a solenoid and control the time it turns on and off, why not have the sump on a timer as well? Just make sure your return tube is the same level as the overflow so your water level does not change when you turn the powers off, and don't have to worry about flooding the sump or reverse siphoning.
> 
> Have your Co2 kick in the same time your sump shuts off, and power on the sump when the lights and Co2 turn off. That way you get the benefits of having a sump without the huge Co2 losses.


If your bacteria bed is in the sump wouldn't that cause some problems with the aerobic bacteria?

"...My only concern now is will this setup create too large of swings in PH by turning sump on and off everyday? Not sure if this would stress sensitive fish or cause algae blooms???..."

I think many would agree that a large ph swing (one full degree) caused by the daily on/off cycle of CO2 injection has no adverse effects on fish. My set up has proven it to my satisfaction:homemade overflow box, 10gallon sump (sealed) with bio balls, CO2 reactor regulated with controller-solenoid shut off at night by a timer. I've been running this filter set up longer than some members are old I'll bet. Since the early 90s. Use of a ph controller is new the last couple of years though, before I just used a timer.


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

I would like to bring something here for our attention:
Sump is different then wet-dry filter.:icon_wink
Sump is a water circulation box only and wet-dry is the box where we place media for aerobic filtration by bacteria.

I believe that if you close tight a wet-dry filter, holding CO2 in it, of course would be a negative action for the aerobic bacteria population because it needs O2 to trive. Needs free air, not closed CO2 rich air.

:fish:


MarkMc: thank you for your post! Your experience shows that it is possible.
I agree that probably there is some CO2 lost but can be minimized with some safe notes.

There is CO2 lost with "water flow" in a tank without overflow also.

I believe there is a guy called Takashi Amano from Japan that has a large tank with an overflow. He knows a lot and has been in the hobby for loooooong time.:bounce:










Cheers.roud:


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

Equinodorus said:


> I would like to bring something here for our attention:
> Sump is different then wet-dry filter.:icon_wink
> Sump is a water circulation box only and wet-dry is the box where we place media for aerobic filtration by bacteria.
> 
> I believe that if you close tight a wet-dry filter, holding CO2 in it, of course would be a negative action for the aerobic bacteria population because it needs O2 to trive. Needs free air, not closed CO2 rich air.


You're forgetting the the O2 in the water. With a somewhat heavily planted tank and every plant sending out streams of oxygen bubbles there is plenty of O2 in the water exiting the overflow. I typically don't do ammonia/nitrite testing when I add new fish to see if there are spikes but my subjective experience tells me that the filter adjusts very quickly to bio-loading. Even still I suspect I loose a lot of co2 with my set up-it's not completely air tight as I would like it to be.


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

MarkMc said:


> You're forgetting the the O2 in the water. With a somewhat heavily planted tank and every plant sending out streams of oxygen bubbles there is plenty of O2 in the water exiting the overflow. I typically don't do ammonia/nitrite testing when I add new fish to see if there are spikes but my subjective experience tells me that the filter adjusts very quickly to bio-loading. Even still I suspect I loose a lot of co2 with my set up-it's not completely air tight as I would like it to be.


Oh yeah. Well posted! The O2 from the plants when lights are on. You´re right, I forgot about that.

How do you seal your box? Pics?

How many gallons per hour runs on your overflow?
How many gallons is the display tank?
How many Lb is the CO2 tank and how long do you need to fillup?

Important question: Do you regret having your overflow for any reason?

Thanks a lot for posting your experiences here!


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

Equinodorus said:


> Oh yeah. Well posted! The O2 from the plants when lights are on. You´re right, I forgot about that.
> 
> How do you seal your box? Pics?
> 
> ...


I've sealed the top of the wet dry with duct tape. The outside of the overflow has a cover-it's a two part homemade job.
I use a quite one model 1200 pump-I'd guess it's pumping around 200gph.
55 gallon display tank with a 10 gallon tank for the sump/filter which has about 4-5 gallons of water in it.
Here's a pic of the wet dry http://home.roadrunner.com/~mcluvlyland/wetDry.jpg
The overflow box back http://home.roadrunner.com/~mcluvlyland/backOverflow.jpg
The overflow box front side (there is a glass cover that covers 90% or more of the top of the tank. http://home.roadrunner.com/~mcluvlyland/insideOverflow.jpg
I think one of the short comings of this set up is circulation-it needs more in the tank. Here is a shot of the display tank. http://home.roadrunner.com/~mcluvlyland/full.jpg
It's a work in progress. I neglected to prune for about a month and the java moss that was growing on the back glass grew out covering the top and the lawn of micro swords that covered the right side bottom died except for a couple that you see in the middle.


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

Oh, I forgot to answer one more of your questions. I have a 30lb cylinder of co2 and it gets filled every 4 to 6 months. I'm sure that I'm losing a lot of co2 compared to a canister system but I've no plans to change-I like having a constant level in the display as another member mentioned and I like having a bacteria matrix (bio balls) that can handle what ever happens and it's fairly easy to replace the filter floss that is used for polishing the water and it's a convenient place to have the pump for the co2 reactor.And everything is out of sight.


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## adstudio3d (Jun 8, 2007)

One more idea...

Since the only downfall of a wet dry is Co2 loss, then you could always do a lowtech tank and not inject Co2... just use ferts. Granted your plants won't grow as fast, but some would think this is an advantage as you won't need to prune as much either. This is what I'm doing with my 55gal and wetdry/sump.

Can't wait to get it all setup, I just got my eco-complete in the mail and just waiting for my lights from AHsupply to get here. Anyone know someone on this forum that sells healthy plants in good portions for decent price? I also need a few pieces on driftwood for my new aquascape.


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

Hi guys:

I was thinking about no CO2 gas adstudio3d, but ferts will be more expensive than CO2 gas in the long run for sure. Even so with the CO2 gas lost.

Another thing is the fact that I don´t need to do wet-dry and don´t need a canister filter either!

There is natural filtration in the substrate already.

If I just put the ceramic rings under water in the sump in a box that will do the job just like canisters and I can put a lot of them... :thumbsup:

Those are facts.:icon_mrgr

This way I can invest the money I was spending for canister with other things.

Thanks a lot everyone.

Is there anyone out there with these type of experiences?

Cheers :bounce:


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

CO2 is, by far, the largest expense I have in keeping my aquarium. Fertilizers are really quite inexpensive by comparison.


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

imeridian said:


> CO2 is, by far, the largest expense I have in keeping my aquarium. Fertilizers are really quite inexpensive by comparison.


WOW. You must been loosing a lot of it.:icon_eek:

Plus, if you use them together you´ll need less ferts, of course. He was talking about only ferts and no CO2 gas at all, right?


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

Hi Imeridian:

What do you think about the the Amano´s tank with the overflow?
What about the large possibilities with ceramic rings in a sump?

Thanks


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

I was replying directly to you, you said fertilizers were more expensive than CO2. This is not even close to true from my experience. 

I think you overestimate the cost of fertilizers and underestimate the cost of CO2.

I fill my 5lb cylinder approximately every three months for my 75 gallon tank, each fill is $25. This usage rate is not unusual for a tank running canister filters.

Off the top of my head I can't recall just how much dry ferts I use in terms of pounds per year, but let's just say it's about $10 worth. A 2L jug of flourish is $30 and lasts the year. That portion of the equation could be substantially reduced by using dry micros.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Echinodorus said:


> What do you think about the the Amano´s tank with the overflow?
> What about the large possibilities with ceramic rings in a sump?


I have no opinion on Amano's tank. I imagine he can do pretty much whatever he would like with expense never being an issue. 

I've also never used a sump or wet/dry. I wouldn't consider one for a planted tank. I like canister filters, they work exceptionally well for the purposes of a planted tank.


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

Yeah, CO2 does cost more than dry ferts. If you dose liquid ferts, than that might be understandable that ferts cost more. I bought some extra dry ferts awhile ago because Orlando made me abit worry about fert prices going up. Still got a lot though. KNO3 is used a lot but my KH2PO4 is following pretty closely behind.

My 5lb refill (switching) cost $15. $25 is a bit too much imo imeridian, but I would guess each place has its own price.

Man, sucks waking up with a headache, now I gotta pop some pills :icon_roll


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

If you dose CO2 you need less aditional ferts than a tank without CO2.

Thank you so much for your help imeridian. I appreciate your time to reply. I believe that if you have room to change for a 10lb CO2 tank you could save some money.:hihi:Just my 2 cents.

Anyone else?
I would like the most experienced guys in the hobby around here to post and come with good deep explanations about the issues posted for me and the others. 

Those are: 
:fishverflow/CO2 loss.
:fish:substrate as complementary filter media.
:fish:ceramic rings in sump (under water) instead expensive canisters.
:fish:tips on dosing ferts to save money.

I would like to know if the ideas posted before are relevant or not. 
I would avoid expose personal preferences just because... That way, we could really learn instead fix a general rule to be followed.

Hope you guys can help me on that.

Thanks a lot all of you.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Natty said:


> My 5lb refill (switching) cost $15. $25 is a bit too much imo imeridian, but I would guess each place has its own price.


Yes, I'm being a bit gouged. The problem is they charge a 'hazmat' fee on top of the cost of the gas and the fee keeps increasing. It used to be $18 when I started. They also don't keep 10lb cylinders in stock or I would have changed over. It's really not that big of a deal, thus I haven't looked for a different place. One needs to keep in mind that I live in a small town, the options aren't as plentiful as those in more urban areas.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

This is not true. If you have a tank with out co2 you will normally not have enough light to necessitiate it. If you have a tank with low lighting that allows you to not use co2 then you wont ned to do fert dosing = low light/tech tank.



Echinodorus said:


> If you dose CO2 you need less aditional ferts than a tank without CO2.


Thank you so much for your help imeridian. I appreciate your time to reply. I believe that if you have room to change for a 10lb CO2 tank you could save some money.:hihi:Just my 2 cents.

Anyone else?
I would like the most experienced guys in the hobby around here to post and come with good deep explanations about the issues posted for me and the others. 

Any agitation in your water will lose co2 due to off gassing. How much exactly is not known. If you want to be as efficent as possible with co2 then try to avaid it. Plain and simple.

I use the EI method with TPN/Florish for micros. There really isnt a :"cheaper way of doing it unless you want to get very involved with trying to make your own mixtures. In my case if I tried doing that it would evenuually become much more expensive in the long run. Ill let the big companies foot the research bill. :thumbsup:



Echinodorus said:


> Those are:
> :fishverflow/CO2 loss.
> :fish:substrate as complementary filter media.
> :fish:ceramic rings in sump (under water) instead expensive canisters.
> :fish:tips on dosing ferts to save money.


I would like to know if the ideas posted before are relevant or not. 
I would avoid expose personal preferences just because... That way, we could really learn instead fix a general rule to be followed.

Hope you guys can help me on that.

Thanks a lot all of you.[/QUOTE]


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## adstudio3d (Jun 8, 2007)

+1 on the overflow/Co2 issue I'd like to know this also, plus best way to set it up to minimize Co2 loss.

For ferts I'd say go to aquariumfertilizer.com
I got over a years worth for $29 + shipping.
Cheapest I've seen anywhere else that sells ferts that I could find.
Oh, and the ferts arrived at my door 2 days later with standard shipping =)


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

adstudio3d said:


> +1 on the overflow/Co2 issue I'd like to know this also, plus best way to set it up to minimize Co2 loss.


I guess we can begin like this:
:fish:Water level in the overflow box to the max. Less bubbles, the better.
:fish:Make sure the water circulation in display helps more contact for CO2 and H2O.
:fish:Choose return pump carefully. Can´t be too strong. The slower the better, so the overflow to be slow.

:fish:The need for circulation in tank to be acomplished with other than return pump. Can be done with canisters, if you already have one.
:fishon´t be lazy to make the overflow. Plan/modify it carefully.
Anyone can do it!

Everything simple. No stress. It can be done and works great. People have been doing this already. Amano does that guys!:icon_cool

Thank you all.


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

:bounce: 

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL OF YOU!


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

Just a positive FYI: my daughter's boyfriend's mom has a 120 gal planted angel/community tank with a wet/dry tickle filter. No co2. Her plants and fish are lovely.


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## Echinodorus (Dec 5, 2008)

Hi michu, 
Could you please post how she did the set up?
Can you bring pictures of the overflow?
I love angels, what type does she has?
Thanks.


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