# Crinkled leaves, old and new.



## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Is this same tank as posted bout 1 month ago?(Your previous post's)
Still practicing reduced CSM+B? Dosing this each day as written?
Possible peat in system still affecting pH controller? 
What lighting ? for how long? Have you tried decreasing light for longer than a few day's?
Have you tried increasing CO2? over a few day's for longer than a few day's?
Might resume CSM+B to previous level's before reduction of same, considering little improvement noted.
Other's who have tried the trace detox reported near immediate improvement followed by near as rapid decline according to post's/thread's here ,and elsewhere.
But if as posted ,you are adding it daily , then reduction to twice weekly would not in my veiw have any negative effect.
According to your previous post's if this is same tank from a month ago, you increased the plant mass considerably.
While I think nutrient's are easy to dump in the tank ,and lighting is easy to reduce/increase, CO2 and it's application is tougher to get right for many but maybe tougher yet,while light energy,possibly in excess is driving demand.
I might reduce light intensity and or duration while seeing if I could not improve on CO2 distribution and adopting consistent nutrient delivery.
Would dose CSM+B day after dosing macro's.(not with macros)
Tank and most plant's are still fairly newish.A little patience is often rewarded.


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

Yes this is same physical tank but it has new light, new filter, new co2 distribution, all new plants.

I reduced the CSM+B in the last post but when I rebuilt the tank I also reset to stock EI due to the plant mass being increased 20 fold with all fast growing plants.

I don't think peat would be affecting the controller as any false lower reading would still be false in the degassed water. To clarify if it is reading 0.8 low when I degassed a container and placed the probe inside that reading would also be 0.8 low resulting in the same 1.54PH difference.

The light is now 2 light bars with 3watt leds and 90deg lenses run by a computer simulating sunrise/set, I have been running at 45%, 10h photoperiod split into 2 periods for 3 weeks. Yesterday I reduces to a 7h photoperiod, 45% is still enough to produce pearling within 1.5h of lights on.

The Co2 is now being directed into the intake of a 1200l canister and I am pushing almost as much as possible without having bubbles come out the outlet. I have only increased very slightly. On the topic of Co2 my tank was running on fumes when this started although the controller never registered a rise in PH.

I can try raising the Co2 some more and splitting the fert days. All the plants were growing out of control since planting until the last 7 days when this occurred, come to think of it the plants came with a boat load of hair algae and about a week and a half ago I resorted to a 3 day "algaefix" dose. Killed all the hair algae good and proper, do you think being a biocide it may have contributed at all? I dropped a half dose in after the big WC for good measure.

This problem is worrying as I am about to leave for a month and my roommate can only dose what I tell him, no WC's and I won't have phone access.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

I see that the NO3 is over twice the target I generally aim for, perhaps cutting all the ferts to 25% of the current dosing and doubling the water changes. Then, just using NO3 as proxy, maintain the NO3 not higher than 20. The range will be determined by how fast the plants are using it. But 20ppm might be the maximum build up at the end of a week's dosing. This represents the excess fertilizer the plants did not use.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

The plants you have are supposed to have undulating leaf edges. They do not look pathological to me and in fact look quite normal. Have you googled pictures of these species?


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

It's a micronutrient toxicity.


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

Diana, I will be reducing the No3 I just doubled it as I had a No3 deficancy. I am currently dialing it in.

Zapins, I will try post better pictures of the leaves to point out the problems. The broad leaf green plant in the first pic for example had perfectly flat leaves when I harvested it from the wild, the leaves in the second pic very flat and rich red, and the upper leaves in the 3rd pic have a distinct curled down side edge which is new since yesterday. My Hygrophilia sunset new growth looked like it got jammed in a printer and was stunted, it looks alot better post WC. The lilly had flat leaves until a week ago and the red stem up the back has crown leaves twisting an entire 360 degrees.

Roadmaster, I checked my previous post you mentioned and that was a different issue, those Hygro leaves were curling up along the length of the sides. I never discovered what caused it but that plant is in this tank currently and is perfectly healthy, better than its ever been.

Solcielo lawrencia, I hope it is just that, but would a toxicity show up so soon after a 80% WC? For the past year I have been dosing micro a total of 1.2gms a week with no issue, now I have increased plant mass 20X suddenly I started dosing micro 1.75gms total a week. Is it possible it is acually a micro deficiany instead as the photos for iron deficiacy on Iron Deficiency in Ammania gracilis « Deficiency Finder look very similar.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

I am not saying it is a micronutrient toxicity, but here is a possibility. 

Here is how a toxicity MIGHT happen:

You go along for a while over dosing whichever mineral is causing the problems, but it is just a very small overdose, not toxic at all. 
The substrate and organic matter in the substrate latch onto the minerals, taking them out of circulation. They are not out of the system, but locked up in a way the plants could get them if needed, but the plants do not need them.

Then you add more plants, and increase the dosing. The tank was already pretty full of trace minerals, and this excess in the water has nowhere to go. So it enters the leaves. They start to curl, or grow slowly.

You do a big water change. The minerals are still in the substrate, but now the water is better. So the plants improve. 
But you keep dosing, and very quickly reach over load again. 

Pretty easy to test: 
Do a big water change, then don't dose unless a test shows something is needed. Then monitor how long it takes to drop back down.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

There are many unknown factors in the aquarium hobby that can cause strange effects on our plants. Some are pathological and others are reactionary. The changes in your plants do not appear to be pathological at this time and are within the normal range. The plants seem to be growing well, do not have damage on new or old leaves and all growing tips are in good shape. Twisting is generally not a good sign for anything in particular, sort of like feeling tired isn't a sign of anything in particular, it could mean you've had a hard day at work, didn't get enough sleep the night before, or have cancer, it just isn't a good marker for anything. Many things cause twisting, most of which are not harmful.

Furthermore, plants can change the shape of their leaves, the orientation, etc depending on environmental factors very quickly. Light levels are one of those things. One possibility is that perhaps when you took it from the wild there is less light in your tank than the full Australian sun can provide which triggered a reactionary/compensatory change in the plants. Or perhaps the water chemistry is slightly different, perhaps it is a temperature change and the list goes on. 

At the end of the day your plants appear to be extremely healthy. You can try chasing down whatever the cause of this is, but I doubt you'll be able to 100% pin it down to anything in particular and you may do the plants some harm by trying to fix something that isn't broken.


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

*New Symptom*

Yesterday I did a 60% WC and dosed my standard macro, leaving out micro as Diana suggested. I came home from work today and found melting old leaves, one of the Malay Red lily leaves has died, a whole Hygro has started melting and fell apart as I touched it and a couple of other species had a few leaves showing similar melting from either the centre, stem, tip or edge of the leaves.

Bump: Pics


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Have you used excel, peroxide, other chemicals in the tank recently?

How long have these plants been in your tank?


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

most including the red lily has been in 2-3 weeks, the green hygrophilia one about a year. 

I have spot treated BGA with peroxide, 50ml total in a 160L tank about 5 days ago. The only damaged plant anywhere near the treatment was the red Lily.

7 days ago used a half dose of algaefix.

My micro solution has a tiny bit of excel to keep away mould.

Today I came home from work, the plants look healthier. One in particular couldn't hold itself upright yesterday, the leaves were just laying down tangled is now almost vertical again and the leaves are flatter too. I can see 1 or 2 leaves on my Hygro still melting but for the most part all the plants leaves seem to be flattening out slowly and the growth rate seems to have increased all round.

I still have not dosed micros since the WC.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

My thoughts on this are:

1) Your CSM+B dose is not toxic and you should keep adding the amount you were. Your dose gave you 0.7 ppm a week iron which was a safe amount
2) Your plant's leaves likely died and were damaged from the algaecide you added a few days ago. That stuff is phytotoxic and is designed to damage photosynthetic organisms, be they algae or plants. Some of these chemicals are labeled as "plant safe" which I have my doubts about, but most are not plant safe and will damage them as well. 
3) You'll need some time for the plants to recover and grow out healthily.


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

Ok thanks, that makes sense, just one more question, its a bit off topic.


I have to leave my tank in the wife's hands for the next 3-4 weeks. She has no idea or interest in my tank so WC's are out of question. I leave in a few days, I have some annoying BGA that shows up in small patches periodically. 


My preparation is: instructing her how to put the daily doses in, instructing how to chop off excessive growth and remove dead leaves, multiple lead up WC's, massive trim of my hygro sunset (2in daily growth), put 4 SAE and 4 sucking catfish in, put a surface skimmer on timer 5m per 2h, gave a phone number for a shop that stocks E-mycin with dosing instructions, and instructed to keep the water level up.


Do you think that will be enough?


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

Dose the required concentration of the nutrients into the water. Back way off on the light.

Leave the wife to feed, and feed only (sparingly).

By backing off on the light, the plants and algae will spend two weeks or so adapting to the reduced light levels, upon which time they can only grow at a reduced rate due to the reduced light. The reduced rate of growth will reduce the rate of consumption of nutrients, so by dosing to ensure the nutrient levels are on the higher side, you reduce the chances of nutrient levels reaching a deficiency induced state.

Return, thank loving wife for showing interest in maintaining your tank, give her some lovin', remove any algae, large water change, begin standard dosing regime, begin *slowly* increasing light levels.


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## touch of sky (Nov 1, 2011)

When I go away on holidays (three weeks at a time), I leave premeasured packets of fish food so the tank is not overfed. I tend to make these light feedings. Light feeding helps a lot when not doing water changes. Also, clean your filter and do your water changes as mentioned before leaving. Also, I am assuming she will be able to get in touch with you if she needs help and you can walk her through what to do.


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

Thanks, my fish get barely get fed at it is, usually once every three days. I will instruct her to do the same and I will turn my lighting down from 45% to 25%. 

On the BGA front: I am 100% that it is caused by high organics due to the decaying hair algae that the algaefix killed, the BGA only grows on surfaces with plenty of dead material atached. I am removing all my HC, and trimming all leaves with excessive rotting matter attached. I also found some Tetracycline at the local LFS and I will do a 4 day cycle with it followed by the final WC and insert a carbon pad into the filter. Hopefully this will stop any reoccurrence while I am gone.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

What is the tetracycline for? Tetracycline will not help the plants better not to use it.


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

Zapins said:


> What is the tetracycline for? Tetracycline will not help the plants better not to use it.




Its to kill the Cyanobacteria thats starting to take off in my tank, I am using it as a last resort because I can't risk having it explode into a blue green swamp while I am gone. E-Mycin it hard to get hold of here.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

BGA is due to excess nutrients. The term "organics" should not be used since this is just another term for nutrients. Do a 200% WC to reduce nutrient concentrations and this will reduce the BGA.


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

I have done 6 60-80% WC in two weeks. By organics I was referring to decaying organic material. The original occurrence was due to zero nitrate. Now the Bga only appears on surfaces with rotting dead algae from a massive hair algae outbreak. I went in yesterday and removed every single leaf with any sign of algae or damage and thoroughly vac the gravel.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

BGA is not related to no nitrates. It's just a correlation, not causal. No N results in no growth, which results in no nutrient uptake, which means plenty for BGA.


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

Ok, that makes sense. I was curious how people N starve their red plants without bringing it on.


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

So it's been a week since I started dosing Micro again and now the new growth on my Hygrophilia sunset and one other plant is white. Not all white leaves just half the leaf, the half from on the stem side and green tipped. Any idea what cause cause it?


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

The white leaves are now dying, growth has stopped, red leaves have turned dark green and look sick, one leaf is purple, one set of red plants has turned deep brown.

My older leaves are not turning yellow so I don't believe its lack of N, which I can't test as I am 3600km from my tank. Zapins says it's not micro toxicity, Diana says it is. Can anyone offer another opinion or +1 on the above list?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

How about a few new photos when you can next? Its been quite a few weeks and whatever the issue was has probably matured into a more recognizable problem.

Also, keep in mind it might be an additional new problem that has started since you went away.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Let's go back to the beginning, from your original post - 



Jok178 said:


> G'Day,
> 
> The only thing that helped was a 80%WC. Within 2 days I had a huge growth spurt and healthier stem plant leaves but now on day 3 things seen to be getting worse again.


The logical deduction here is that there is too much of something. 

.7 csmb/week is still a whopping amount for a lot of people. If I go much over .05 or .07 3x week I experience toxicity symptoms. Certain species immediately twist and curl, droop, lose color, etc This is for a heavily planted 75 gallon tank, 110 PAR at the sub, and a 1.3 PH drop from CO2. I also add an additional .15 or so ppm Fe from a combination of dtpa and gluconate - 3x week.

Not trying to get into a toxicity debate, just sharing my particular case, which Ive spent the better part of a year and a half figuring out.


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

burr740 said:


> Let's go back to the beginning, from your original post -
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Burr, do you have soft water?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

fablau said:


> Burr, do you have soft water?


Moderate I'd say, 5-6 KH, GH is 50 ppm Ca, ~5 Mg, w/another 5-10 Mg added at water changes. 100% tap, Sub is inert sand


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

The hygro was just starting to go white when I left but I wanted to wait and see what would happen so I let it go.

Burr your list "Certain species immediately twist and curl, droop, lose color," has summed up every problem I have had with it. I should say that my CSMB is not actually CSMB, but a copy that my local plant guy gets special made. He said it should be exactly the same though.

Last night the person looking after my tank said it is getting worse so I told them to cut away all micros and trim off the white tips from the affected plants so I can see if anything changes.

Here are the photos, sorry for the quality I got them through SMS.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

That is almost certainly an iron deficiency. Classic white new leaves and mild twisting on certain species. Red species are often difficult to assess for iron deficiency compared with green species. 

Here are some other iron deficient photos from www.DeficiencyFinder.com


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

Ok cool, thanks Zapins I'll tell them to restart micros and start adding in florish iron to boost it.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Sounds good. Please update this threads with photos in a week or so after adding the traces if you get the chance. It is always helpful to others in the future who have similar problems to know what worked.


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

Will do


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## Jok178 (Sep 8, 2015)

Sorry it took a while to post, it was an iron deficiency. This photo was taken 6 days after the addition of flourish iron to the water on top my normal fert doses. The difference is huge, that red lily on the left had been at ground level with 4cm leaves for weeks, now the leaves are about 20cm an high in the water column. 

When I got home there was a significant amount of damage, most my Hygro had melted away, my Bacopta was completely gone, my drop checker had shattered leaving me with zero co2, BBA all over substrate, and GDA everywhere. 

It has been 2 weeks since my return. I can't get my plants red anymore like I used to even with my light turned way up, my plants used to pearl like an air stone at 45% light now its barely noticeable on 75%. I believe low Phos is the cause of these problems as the GDA keeps returning strong when removed. It doesn't matter too much as tomorrow I am tearing it down and installing MTS substrate. 

Cheers for your help.

Bump: pic


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

If iron deficiency goes on long enough that the plant leaves die and necrose it takes quite a while for them to recover. Raising the lighting intensity during this recovery phase puts the plants at more risk since they are trying to heal and now have to deal with more oxidative stress from higher lighting.

Either way, glad you got it sorted out and are switching to a new substrate.


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