# Differences: Clippard Mouse, Clippard Maximatic, Burkert 6011



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Great info. I have made the switch from Clippard to my Burkert 6011 and will not go back. After my last Clippard solenoid burnt out in about 6 months I decided to get the Burkert. There is a pretty lengthy thread on here that I started that details how I ended up with the Burkert and also how to wire one up and where to get them. 

Thanks again!


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## MoeBetta (Feb 5, 2011)

For our application the mouse is a clear best fit. It's only real con is those #10 ports.

Do many people really experience failures there? I won't be touching my reg all that often.


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## Jim Miller (Dec 24, 2002)

Use the manifold version of the mouse with a single port manifold. Aim the port upwards and mount your nv-55 atop that then the check valve and barb on the nv. 

Use inline bubble counter. 

Jim


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## btimmer92 (Mar 12, 2011)

Hmmm that is very specific. Not everyone has to set theirs up like that, but I do think it is not a bad way to set it up.

And betta, people do not experience failure with the mouse. Bsmith was referring to the maximatic. 

Bsmith, I think that should be noted in your post.


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## Jim Miller (Dec 24, 2002)

I think the paranoia about the 10-32 ports is misplaced but if you want to reduce the stress from the moment arm my suggested way is an approach that works. Frankly making a big elongated stem of 1/8" pipe fittings seems a little kludgy IMO.

Jim


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## MoeBetta (Feb 5, 2011)

I was referring to the #10 connections. Everyone seems to fear them, which if the regulator was being used more actively I could see the issue, but as is... it's very low risk in it's application.

Basically my question is why is #10-32 connections so frowned upon?


EDIT: Jim pretty much addressed it.


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

Regarding the 10-32 fittings, it also depends on things like whether you use some sort of sealant to strengthen the joint, and whether you have mounted check valves and bubble counters, and whether you have more than one nv/bc assembly attached to it. In addition, needle valves can go from tiny and almost no weight to huge and quite heavy.

It's correct that with even several light needle valves, so long as the bc's aren't mounted, the 10-32 fittings aren't a problem.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

i have never used a Mouse and was not aware that the one I had fail was called a maximatic. But that was a horrible piece of equipment.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

MoeBetta said:


> For our application the mouse is a clear best fit. It's only real con is those #10 ports.
> 
> Do many people really experience failures there? I won't be touching my reg all that often.


I've actually snapped more 10-32 threads than I care to admit. On "quick" fittings, barbed fittings, and even one on a manifold mount mouse solenoid. It is easy to do if you aren't careful. Though I admit I was either using too large a wrench(too much torque) or a funny angle put sideways torque on them. 




btimmer92 said:


> Hmmm that is very specific. Not everyone has to set theirs up like that, but I do think it is not a bad way to set it up.
> 
> And betta, people do not experience failure with the mouse. Bsmith was referring to the maximatic.
> 
> Bsmith, I think that should be noted in your post.


The failure in reference was specific to the threads, not the valves. The 10-32 threads are less than desirable, but the way you manifold mount them eliminates most of that problem. 

I do have some OLD mouse valves from ebay that have failed. They seem to be the "proprietary" valves that are 24v and unknown use, but they do not seal. Buy new and 12v and I can't imagine that will happen.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

OverStocked said:


> I've actually snapped more 10-32 threads than I care to admit. On "quick" fittings, barbed fittings, and even one on a manifold mount mouse solenoid. It is easy to do if you aren't careful. Though I admit I was either using too large a wrench(too much torque) or a funny angle put sideways torque on them.


+1, did the same thing even with the clippard stainless steel 10-32 male thread union connectors, and damage several clippard MNV-3 needle valves. now I don't use too much torque on the 10-32, and avoid 10-32 if the needle valve is not SMC AS1000 series(thicker stainless steel 10-32 male thread).

and hardening pipe cement really help on the 10-32.

the clippard manifold provide endless possibility if you have the tools and know-how on metal working. I think I am going start a thread and show how to modify the manifold pretty soon.


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## maknwar (Aug 10, 2008)

MoeBetta said:


> For our application the mouse is a clear best fit. It's only real con is those #10 ports.
> 
> Do many people really experience failures there? I won't be touching my reg all that often.



Not really sure how you came to that conclusion. 

Only problem I have with the mouse solenoids are the electrical connections. I wish they sold an adapter to fit on them. DIY is the only choice we have for connecting them to our 120v outlets. Of course the 10-32 threads are a real pain in the but to work with too. Like everyone said, using some type of sealant is needed.

I really wish the maximatics were more reliable like they used to be. They were cheap and they worked great. They did get hot but that never seemed to bother anyone. I am sure there are a ton of people out there with them still in use.

The only bad part of Burkerts is the price. Other than that, they are perfect.


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## MoeBetta (Feb 5, 2011)

Makinwar, not sure how you don't come to that conclusion.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

MoeBetta said:


> Makinwar, not sure how you don't come to that conclusion.


Nothing about it is "clear". 

I would say the Burkert is the highest quality, most "solid" option of them all. The 10-32 threads are something I'm done with. I actually bumped a reg with my canister filter once and snapped a 10-32 fitting clean off. Deal breaker.


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## maknwar (Aug 10, 2008)

Lol, I asked you first moebetta. Why do think they are the best?


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## MoeBetta (Feb 5, 2011)

OverStocked said:


> Nothing about it is "clear".
> 
> I would say the Burkert is the highest quality, most "solid" option of them all. The 10-32 threads are something I'm done with. I actually bumped a reg with my canister filter once and snapped a 10-32 fitting clean off. Deal breaker.


Thanks for the example, that's what I was asking for earlier.



maknwar said:


> Lol, I asked you first moebetta. Why do think they are the best?


FWIW, you asked nothing, hence the lack of reply.

It's got the correct specs. The burkert has nearly three times the closing pressure and it's temperature range is wider than the mouse's. It's well known for it's quality, and has the preferred connection.

None of those specs really matter though unless you really hate #10-32 that much. The mouse already is capable well above the pressures we deal with, the temperatures that would make either fail would present problems elsewhere in this hobby, and it consumes less than a fifth the energy and runs far cooler.

I can also open it up and service it if need be.

Idk maybe ignorance is bliss on my part.


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## Mr. Fisher (Mar 24, 2009)

MoeBetta said:


> For our application the mouse is a clear best fit. It's only real con is those #10 ports.
> 
> Do many people really experience failures there? I won't be touching my reg all that often.


How do you figure that? 

The Burkert is much more of a stout piece of equipment. It will last longer if you're worried about radiant heat. Bettatail has asserted that heat and flow are the main causes of solenoid failure. If this be the case, then the Burkert will outlast both the Mouse and the Maximatic. But, in actuality, the tolerances of the Burkert 6011 are near bulletproof. They are heavy duty units. You can get one for $48 plus $6 shipping. The Clippards are about $10 cheaper--not sure about the mouse--? Clippard has outragous shipping prices, IME.

The older maximatics would last longer, but, even they, would leak after a while at the seal. Their internals would stick, too, but there were ways around this.

If price is an issue, I would still buy a Burkert, b/c you'll be replacing your Clippard in a matter of years rather than potential decades.


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## Mr. Fisher (Mar 24, 2009)

MoeBetta said:


> It's got the correct specs. The burkert has nearly the times the closing pressure and it's temperature range is wider than the mouse's. It's well known for it's quality, and has the preferred connection.
> 
> None of those specs really matter though unless you really hate #10-32 that much. The mouse already is capable well above the pressures we deal with, the temperatures that would make either fail would present problems elsewhere in this hobby, and it consumes less than a fifth the energy and runs far cooler.
> 
> ...


 
There is no correlational link between heat and the durbaility of the Burkert solenoid. Heat isn't a bad thing. It just means that the coil is electrified. That's it.

I really doubt you'll notice a difference between the clippard mouse and burkert in terms of energy consumption. 

The Burkert will pay for itself over time. Once your Clippard leaks or malfunctions, you'll have already spent more than the cost of a Burkert by replacing it with another solenoid. My Burkert will still be runnning. 

I think what it comes down to is initial cost versus replacement cost. 
If you drop and extra $10-20 (the difference in cost between the Clippard Maximatic and a Burkert 6011) on the Burkert, you'll actually save $$$ in the long run.

Many people who have run Clippards in the past have replaced their units with Burkerts once their original units failed. I know quite a few people who have done this (TPT members as well as SFBAAPS and TBR).

I am less familiar with the Clippard Mouse, but anything that requires soldering (metal fab or sealing to work) is not going to be as practical in the long run when you need to replace parts. I think 1/4 and 1/8" NPT is the way to go if you want durability and mindless leak-free operation.

I've built quite a few of these units over the past year or two, and I've come to the conclusion that the three parts you don't want to skimp on are:

1) the needle valve
2) solenoid
3) bubble counter

I have solved the bubble counter issue by deleting it. The check valves on JBJs fail all the time. This can leak the contents of the bubble counter into your solenoid (dangerous) and into your regulator (depending on configuration).

The fix: use an in-line glass bubble counter.If you're hell bent on using a bubble counter that is hard plumbed to your regulator post body, use a dependable check valve such as the Swagelok SS-2C2-1/3 (or the brass version).

I don't like headaches and having to fiddle with things once they are set. 
This is why I also use Swagelok NPT fittings instead of ace hardware stuff.

You pay a little more for a much better product. Fewer heaches and less time wasted. More time to watch your plants grow.


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## Jim Miller (Dec 24, 2002)

The mouse doesn't require anything special to use. No soldering or gluing. 

Agree on the inline bubble counter. 

Jim


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## Mr. Fisher (Mar 24, 2009)

Jim Miller said:


> The mouse doesn't require anything special to use. No soldering or gluing.
> 
> Agree on the inline bubble counter.
> 
> Jim


Good to know.


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## Jim Miller (Dec 24, 2002)

Here's a pic:









Didn't have an inline check valve handy but they're about the size of the barb and would go between the NV55 and the barb. Note the lack of big lever arm to break anything. This is more than sturdy for any reasonable use.

Jim


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

Jim Miller said:


> Here's a pic:
> 
> View attachment 33276
> 
> ...


It is a nice one, you must sort things out well before you build it this way.

you can add more ports on the same manifold.
same hex manifold, more needle valves.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Bettatail said:


> It is a nice one, you must sort things out well before you build it this way.
> 
> you can add more ports on the same manifold.
> same hex manifold, more needle valves.


That's a neat looking set up.


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

As far as I'm concerned, The Burkert 6011 is the best choice for a planted tank regulator. The materials, craftsmanship, and engineering is just better suited to our application. 

You can however do some cool things with a mouse solenoid. Yesterday I decided to see just how sturdy I could make the connection between a manifold mount mouse and a 10/32 port NV-55. Don't be fooled into thinking some solider is going to keep you from breaking it off.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

oldpunk78 said:


> Yesterday I decided to see just how sturdy I could make the connection between a manifold mount mouse and a 10/32 port NV-55. Don't be fooled into thinking some solider is going to keep you from breaking it off.





how did you solder it?

only soldering not work, you need to drill hole and increase the contact area of the solder metal.
and make sure it is the lead free metal solder with the right flux, not the electronic circuit connection solder.

by the way, that matheson regulator is really a nice one, let me get you a modified manifold and you can put the swagelok or an ideal valve on it.


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

While I do agree some drilling and silver solider is a good solution, I don't believe your average Joe has a drill press and soldering station just waiting out in the garage. Nor do I believe it's worth doing. That's just way beyond many of the folks reading this. Even more, that's a only a good solution for using a tube connection. What happens when you want to run a needle valve with 1/8pnt 10/32 ports?

To answer your question, I did not solider anything in that picture.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

one more time look closer on the elbow(from the manifold to the needle valve), did you stuck the solder into the elbow and make a female 10-32 port base on the solder metal?

if it is, it is not work. solder is soft, can not be backbone support for the needle valve.


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

Bettatail said:


> one more time look closer on the elbow(from the manifold to the needle valve), did you stuck the solder into the elbow and make a female 10-32 port base on the solder metal?
> 
> if it is, it is not work. solder is soft, can not be backbone support for the needle valve.


I edited my other post. I didn't solider anything.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

oldpunk78 said:


> While I do agree some drilling and silver solider is a good solution, I don't believe your average Joe has a drill press and soldering station just waiting out in the garage. Nor do I believe it's worth doing. That's just way beyond many of the folks reading this. Even more, that's a only a good solution for using a tube connection. What happens when you want to run a needle valve with 1/8pnt 10/32 ports?
> 
> To answer you question, I did not solider anything in that picture.


, that is why it is unique.
It takes me 20-30 minutes to modify a manifold even with the right tools, though.

1/8" npt port(female or male) is ok to mount on a manifold also, I built some but never show them. Kevmo911 can verify this.
10-32 ports is easy, only need to open a 10-32 port on the manifold, no soldering needed.


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## Mr. Fisher (Mar 24, 2009)

I'm not really a proponent of customizing already manufactured products to increase their output. SOmething about this seems too jury rigged for my liking. It is also not tested to the same tolerances as the original manufactured product. Although if it is written somewhere that you can drill and solder safely, why not? I doubt this is the case, though.

The proper way to do it would be to run a manifold with multiple solenoids.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

it is alright, the manifold is a brass block, if you have handy hands, you can get a regular battery charged power drill, and drill holes on it, but you need to make sure the alignment is perfect so later on when you tap(also the alignment needs to be perfect) and mount a needle valve, there is no leak.

I modified the first two manifold this way, but got a drill press to make sure the alignment is perfect, and save more time, hand held power drill method takes about an hour to modify a manifold.

And you can custom order the same modified version manifold from clippard, but don't bother to ask them, cost too much..

I am not going to modify whatever in the solenoid, for sure,


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

will start a new thread to show how to modify the manifold, so things will be clear, and it is not hard, anyone handy enough to build a high quality setup, with some simple/right tools can do it too.


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## btimmer92 (Mar 12, 2011)

I think the burkert is great, but don't know why others are slamming the mouse.... I just use fabco nv-55's with them. They are really not that easy to break IMO, just as long as you are somewhat careful. When I build regs with 1/8 npt needle valves (nv-55-18 and 52-1-12) I just use a Burkert. But in terms of solenoid operation, the burkert is really no better than the mouse. THEY ARE JUST BOTH GOOD. End of story.

So it is all about options. If you are okay with using a 10-32 port NV, then to me the mouse is a clear choice because it costs less. Both mouse and 6011 are equal IMO in terms of operation and durability. But if you want a NV with 1/8 ports, then go with burkert.


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## Mr. Fisher (Mar 24, 2009)

btimmer92 said:


> I think the burkert is great, but don't know why others are slamming the mouse.... I just use fabco nv-55's with them. They are really not that easy to break IMO, just as long as you are somewhat careful. When I build regs with 1/8 npt needle valves (nv-55-18 and 52-1-12) I just use a Burkert. But in terms of solenoid operation, the burkert is really no better than the mouse. THEY ARE JUST BOTH GOOD. End of story.
> 
> So it is all about options. If you are okay with using a 10-32 port NV, then to me the mouse is a clear choice because it costs less. Both mouse and 6011 are equal IMO in terms of operation and durability. But if you want a NV with 1/8 ports, then go with burkert.


It's a bit like the Ford versus Chevy debate, but the Burkert is a bit heavier duty than the mouse. Will we notice a difference? Prob not. 

The Burkert will last adecade or more. Not sure about the mouse b/c I've never run one. The DIN 2506 and power cord on the Burkert is def a plus over the mouse. I guess you can wire up a regular power cord on the mouse, but I have yet to see any pictures of this here. 

The maximatic is crapo, though. Def stay away, imo/ime.


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## Jim Miller (Dec 24, 2002)

The Mouse runs on DC rather than AC. A 100ma wall wart of appropriate voltage range is all that is necessary.

How does "heavy duty" apply to what is basically a controlled leak?

the mouse is good for a billion cycles and is used in machine and process control where it is cycled many times a minute. the only moving part is a little spring diaphragm. i really don't care what solenoid anyone choses but damning by faint praise the mouse seems a bit inappropriate.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Jim Miller said:


> The Mouse runs on DC rather than AC. A 100ma wall wart of appropriate voltage range is all that is necessary.
> 
> How does "heavy duty" apply to what is basically a controlled leak?
> 
> jim (shaking head and unsubscribing...)


So the controlled leak can be controlled for a longer time.


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## Mr. Fisher (Mar 24, 2009)

Jim Miller said:


> The Mouse runs on DC rather than AC. A 100ma wall wart of appropriate voltage range is all that is necessary.
> 
> How does "heavy duty" apply to what is basically a controlled leak?
> 
> ...


I don't know if my post was the catalyst for your "un-subscribing" to the thread, but...

If you'd check the specs, you'd see why I am suggesting that the Burkert is heavy duty compared to most. It's rated to higher than the mouse across the board. That said, no-one is "damning the thing by faint praise."

Actually, I have admitted to not running this mouse-beasts. I probably never will because I am running Burkerts. I'm sure the mouse is a solid unit for what it is. I'm sure it will work. 

How is expressing one's opinion about a particular solenoid "inappropriate?"

If it's "snarky," don't apologize, edit it out. Or else you want to make a point?

I linked the specs of these units in an unbiased way in the OP.


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## btimmer92 (Mar 12, 2011)

Just throwin this out there, the burkert has wider specs of temperature and pressure, but the mouse's range is 30-180 F, which we will never go outside of, and the pressure cap is 105, which no one sets their working pressure that high. You don't need your solenoid to go outside of those ranges, or else maybe the burkert would be a clear favorite. But as it is, both solenoids will do what we want them to. So just because the burkert has higher specs that are unnecessary, doesn't mean it is more heavy duty. 

For use on a fish tank co2 system, both solenoids should not run into any problems based on stats. The only way you can say that either is more heavy duty in our case, is if you know how long on average both parts will last.

Again, I am not saying which solenoid is better. I am saying that it hasn't even been proven which solenoid is better, so we don't even know.


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## Mr. Fisher (Mar 24, 2009)

btimmer92 said:


> Again, I am not saying which solenoid is better. I am saying that it hasn't even been proven which solenoid is better, so we don't even know.


I can agree with that. The whole "what's better" debate is kinda weird, imo. I think either will work well for our purpose. I'd still stay away from the maximatic, though.


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## genetao (Jun 25, 2008)

Okay we all pretty much agree that the Clippard Mouse and the Burkert 6011 solenoids are both winners, especially over the Clippard Maximatic.

I really hated my Maximatic, and am glad that it finally died recently. I can't tell you how many times I've burned my #!&^$ upper arm when I'd accidentally brushed up against the damn thing while reaching behind the aquarium stand (CO2 tank is on top of the stand next to the aquarium).

Q: How hot does the Burkert get? Enough to feel a burn? I know it WON'T fail from over heating, but what about feeling the burn against your triceps?


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## genetao (Jun 25, 2008)

BTW, did I mention how I hated how freakin' hot the Maximatic got? I've been meaning to take a sledgehammer to the deceased solenoid. Kind of like Office Space and the fax machine -_^


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

It does get hot. I mean, you can touch it but you can't leave your fingers on it very long. Not sure it this helps or not. :s


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## genetao (Jun 25, 2008)

Thanks for that useful piece of info Oldpunk.

Hmmm..... whether I go with a Maximatic (which I won't ever), or a Burkert, I'm gonna end up getting burned again huh?

The mouse may end up being the least of all evils then.


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

I'm using a mouse solenoid on my regulator. I'm quite happy with it. You just need figure out how to make the 10-32 port as strong as possible.


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## genetao (Jun 25, 2008)

Which is your preferred method for making the 10-32 ports as strong as possible?


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

A stainless coupling and Loctite.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

Oops, forgot to post how to modify the manifold.

There are several other solenoids that are low flow as the mouse, parker hannifin miniature solenoid, numatics/ASCO miniature, MAC low power consumption miniature, SMC low power miniature.
these solenoid are all 10-32 connection(non manifold), but the manifold version available and share the same type of manifold as mouse solenoid.

Got to be lucky to find one, not cheap.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

oldpunk78 said:


> A stainless coupling and Loctite.


+1 for the loctite, I just received two bottles of red 569 last week, heavy duty 10,000 psi rating.


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## genetao (Jun 25, 2008)

Loctite huh? Really? Okay, well if you guys are recommending that, then Red Loctite it is. It just seems so semi-permanent and difficult to remove. Much more so than Oatey Great White Pipe dope.


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

You need to do a lot of test fitting first before you use a thread locker. You also must realize what you are putting together will stay that way. There's also the alternative of running your mouse in-line. Stay away from the brass 10--32 coupling. They are very easy to break. I'm not sure if pipe dope would leak or not. 10-32 threads do not taper like npt threads do. That's why you see those being sealed with little gasgets. When you use thread lock on the steel coupling, it gets pretty strong and doesn't bend like brass would.


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