# For those that use quilt batting and pillow stuffing for filters...



## Abrium (Jan 7, 2011)

That is great information and made me start looking it up because my wife makes the occasional throw pillow and the stuffing she was using contained PBDE and was listed as a fire retardant. Aside from the use as filter media this is just overall bad stuff to have in the house from the information I have found. We threw ours out.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Yeah, studies are showing it messes with the brain and other vital organs and it's kind of disturbing since it is made for bedding. I was at walmart today and all but one bag had this in it. Not worth it.


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## Arv (Oct 3, 2011)

sewingalot said:


> Yeah, studies are showing it messes with the brain and other vital organs and it's kind of disturbing since it is made for bedding. I was at walmart today and all but one bag had this in it. Not worth it.


Did you happen to notice the brand? It would be nice to start a list of these brands with fire retardants or chemicals.
Thx!


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Thanks for this. I was about to go and pick up a roll today so I'll have to be sure to check since I've used the same rolled stuff for years... boooo!

BTW, good to see you back around these parts! Last week I was wondering where you were and saw you hadn't posted since August! I was bout to message you and make sure were doing ok still!


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

It's many of the brands. The crib sizes are almost always sprayed with this crap. I am now using cotton or bamboo for most of my quilting just for this reason.

These are brands I've all used at one time or another. Not all of there products have this, but look very careful on the front and back of the product. The most common one at Walmart is the worst. They do have some that are free of chemicals, just pay close attention. I was surprised that more brands are going this route instead of the opposite.

Ha, miss me eh? I've been catching up on life duties such as cleaning, sewing and boring laundry. Thanks for asking.


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## Rich Conley (Jun 10, 2008)

sewingalot said:


> Yeah, studies are showing it messes with the brain and other vital organs and it's kind of disturbing since it is made for bedding. I was at walmart today and all but one bag had this in it. Not worth it.


 Got some links?


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Rich Conley said:


> Got some links?


http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C...ourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=pbde+health+effects


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

That's why I've never used it. I could never be sure of sewing materials. Aquarium material is way more expensive, but I don't have to worry about it.


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## Rich Conley (Jun 10, 2008)

OverStocked said:


> http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C...ourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=pbde+health+effects


 
Ok, from what I can see, its not a problem at all unless you're pregnant, or have children.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Yeah, but it can kill your livestock. I know unfortunately from prior experience. Also, there are other chemicals they typically use that are even more disturbing. Some are free of all chemicals, others aren't. 

It does a lot more damage that you'd realize. You really need to spend some time reading the scientific journals if you want to see the studies. They can be found on google as well by specifying scientific journals. 

Either way, it's your choice on whether or not to risk it.


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## zdnet (Aug 13, 2010)

From the New York Times article: "California to Ban Chemicals Used as Flame Retardants":

"Our primary concern is that PBDE disrupts the thyroid hormone balance and causes harm to the developing brain," said Tom McDonald, a toxicologist with the California Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment. "We're talking about subtle effects: hyperactivity, hearing loss, less ability to learn."

For detail and a lot more, read the book "Slow Death by Rubber Duck: The Secret Danger of Everyday Things".

BTW, in case anyone thinks that brain development stops in adult, read the article "Brain Continues to Develop Beyond Adolescence". For an in-depth coverage on neuroplasticity, read the book "Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain".


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## milesm (Apr 4, 2006)

i've got an old bag about 8 years old. made by morning glory. got it at walmart. on the bottom it gives a warning about it being extremely flammable. i'd better start conserving this stuff.


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## nalu86 (Oct 19, 2010)

Dimd... I use this crap.
It said keep away from baby's and children, don't smell something about thin film will suffocate. 

Should I remove it? its already in the filter for over 2 months, never had a fish dead in that aquarium.


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

I don't use it because the stuff just clogs. You shouldn't really need it anyway.


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## jasonpatterson (Apr 15, 2011)

zdnet said:


> From the New York Times article: "California to Ban Chemicals Used as Flame Retardants":
> 
> "Our primary concern is that PBDE disrupts the thyroid hormone balance and causes harm to the developing brain," said Tom McDonald, a toxicologist with the California Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment. "We're talking about subtle effects: hyperactivity, hearing loss, less ability to learn."
> 
> For detail and a lot more, read the book "Slow Death by Rubber Duck: The Secret Danger of Everyday Things".


And neither of those links are to scholarly sources. If you check the actual science, you'll find that the vast majority of the research on these indicates that there are chronic effects in animal models at very high levels (grams per kilogram per day) that are pretty nasty but would never be seen in a person who wasn't eating the stuff by the pound. The data on humans is far from conclusive, and it is all from population studies and suggests correlative rather than causative links, if any. 

Note, I'm not saying that this stuff is good for anyone, or even that it's not causing problems, only that we just don't know.


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## willknowitall (Oct 3, 2010)

the stuff i use doesnt say if there are any retardants and nether does their web site, i emailed them just now to get the lowdown


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## zdnet (Aug 13, 2010)

jasonpatterson said:


> And neither of those links are to scholarly sources.


So you are looking for a scholarly source? Here is one from National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences (a part of National Institutes of Health):

Polybrominated Diphenyl Ether (PBDE) Flame Retardants and Thyroid Hormone during Pregnancy




jasonpatterson said:


> If you check the actual science, you'll find that the vast majority of the research on these indicates that there are chronic effects in animal models at very high levels (grams per kilogram per day) that are pretty nasty but would never be seen in a person who wasn't eating the stuff by the pound.


Really? I do not claim to know all the PBDE studies. Since you claim to know so much about them, please show us your tally to support your above claim.

BTW, the study in the above cited "scholarly source" did not require people to eat PBDE "by the pound".

As it is, people already have plenty of PBDE in their system. According to the report (also from a scholarly source) "Polybrominated Diphenyl Ethers (PBDEs) in U.S. Mothers’ Milk", the PBDE in U.S. human milk show "extremely elevated levels (10–100 times) in many participants compared with contemporaneous levels reported in Europe".




jasonpatterson said:


> The data on humans is far from conclusive, and it is all from population studies and suggests correlative rather than causative links, if any.


I wonder what data you had leading you to claim that _all_ the PBDE data on human are from population studies? Your claim is obviously false or may be outdated. The human study cited at the beginning is NOT a population study. It was based on the blood samples and interviews of 270 pregnant women.




jasonpatterson said:


> Note, I'm not saying that this stuff is good for anyone, or even that it's not causing problems, only that we just don't know.


We do know that PBDE is correlated with the reported problems. 

It is only prudent to be cautious about PBDE. Avoid it when there is an alternative.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Seriously, we do know quite a bit about this already. It is harmful, it has been proved to cause issues in humans and other animals:

http://envirocancer.cornell.edu/pbde/brief.cfm

and one directly involving fish (the references alone are worth reading):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2174405/

If you want to use it, fine. Be my guest. However, I do believe this is important to note that many of the companies are even coming out and stating they will be using different ways to make sewing materials safer for the consumer and the environment. 

All I know is that I would get really congested after using certain quilt batting. I stopped using the flame retardant ones and I feel fine. Proof enough for me and several other quilters that were kind enough to let me know this could be the cause. The plus side is they are getting pressure to removal chemicals from the battings and have come out with alternatives. If it says flame-resistant, you are putting your fish at risk. And this it didn't harm my fish or claiming we don't know enough about it when scientific evidence points to the contrary, doesn't make it safe. Just ask people in Meigs county, Ohio what perfluorooctanoic acid did to them and the environment. People like to dispute C8 just as well despite overwhelming evidence.

However, if you want to use it, be my guest. It's your tank. But if I were breeding or keeping expensive fish, it's something to think about and research.


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## CWO4GUNNER (Nov 30, 2010)

I own a a case of bating I bought on sale a year ago and have had absolutely no problems or fish deaths with it on my FX5's and CFS500 as it is great at long term polishing on circumferential filters. In stacked basket filters it just clogs too Quickly due to there small surface area. If your concerned about chemicals just run your canister out of the bathtub of water for an hour, that will eliminate most of it and drop the any toxicity to "parts per billion", much less then we absorb from clothing, blanket, and pillows. The fish will be fine


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

CWO4GUNNER said:


> I own a a case of bating I bought on sale a year ago and have had absolutely no problems or fish deaths with it on my FX5's and CFS500 as it is great at long term polishing on circumferential filters. In stacked basket filters it just clogs too Quickly due to there small surface area. If your concerned about chemicals just run your canister out of the bathtub of water for an hour, that will eliminate most of it and drop the any toxicity to "parts per billion", much less then we absorb from clothing, blanket, and pillows. The fish will be fine


For surface toxins that would be fine. PBDE is embedded in the fibers are rinsing will not remove it.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*Geez!*

Isn't the purpose for using alternative materials and DIY projects to save just a few pennies?

Maybe to be creative and further enjoy the hobby?

Based on the results that occur when I'm 'not' being politically correct and the spiral that always follows I ignore this stuff most of the time. 

GET OVER THE DEBATE HERE! 

The chemical treatments applied to these materials contains a risk factor PERIOD! End of story! Use it at your own risk, thank the OP for providing the information then run out to Walmart buy you're kid a cheap toy made in China painted with lead based paints to play with.

G'nite Gracie


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## Rich Conley (Jun 10, 2008)

zdnet said:


> BTW, the study in the above cited "scholarly source" did not require people to eat PBDE "by the pound".


 Yeah, thats pretty much exactly what it said. Unless you're a pregnant mother.



Avoid the stuff if you can, but the paranoia is a bit ridiculous.


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## CWO4GUNNER (Nov 30, 2010)

As a trained HAZMAT incident commander I can tel you that the risk assessment is tiny and as a result I still use mine with absolutely no problems or fish deaths going into the 3rd generation of Mbuna Cichlid fry. The real threat is the abrupt changes in water chemistry during water changes when 90% of all fish death occur your really that concerned, there's a better challenge for you. Anyway if your that concerned the slogan in mitigating toxins still is and always has been "dilution is the solution to pollution". So rinse it and use IMO.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

CWO4GUNNER said:


> As a trained HAZMAT incident commander I can tel you that the risk assessment is tiny and as a result I still use mine with absolutely no problems or fish deaths going into the 3rd generation of Mbuna Cichlid fry. The real threat is the abrupt changes in water chemistry during water changes when 90% of all fish death occur your really that concerned, there's a better challenge for you. Anyway if your that concerned the slogan in mitigating toxins still is and always has been "dilution is the solution to pollution". So rinse it and use IMO.


I too hold Hazmat certifications, FF certs, the entire palate of ICS certification. I'm NREMTP, CCP, CCEEMTP, FPC, ALS, PHTLS, BTLS, CPR, PALS, PEPP, NRP, EVOC, AMLS, etc cert too... see what I did there.... What I can tell you is that they are absolutely not related to the topic at hand here. It is much like a dentist giving me advice on how to wipe my butt. Sure, they might know how... but it isn't their job nor is it relevant to the discussion you're having with your dentist about root canal. 


What we're saying is that more and more and more of these companies are using products with fire retardant chemicals embedded in them and people should be warned about using them. Yours prob doesn't have that at all, so recommending that everyone just rinse and use seems odd. Why bother recommending to a whole group of people something that could easily have long term health effects on their fish(and possibly them)?


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

We need some kind of fire retardant in these materials as many people have been maimed and killed by burning clothing and bedding. So I don't think we should get paranoid about this issue. Just be forewarned of the possible risks to your livestock and make an informed decision on the use of these materials. Maybe boil it and leach as much as you can before using it or just go for it and not worry at all. I don't use it much myself so purchasing it for much more per lb at the LFS isn't a big deal for me. I also use it bulk in building speaker cabinets (another hobby) and wouldn't use that material in my filters anyway. 

Either way there's no good reason anyone here should get the least bit upset about another's choices or excessively ague/debate about it. 'nuff said.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

audioaficionado said:


> We need some kind of fire retardant in these materials as many people have been maimed and killed by burning clothing and bedding. So I don't think we should get paranoid about this issue. Just be forewarned of the possible risks to your livestock and make an informed decision on the use of these materials. Maybe boil it and leach as much as you can before using it or just go for it and not worry at all. I don't use it much myself so purchasing it for much more per lb at the LFS isn't a big deal for me. I also use it bulk in building speaker cabinets (another hobby) and wouldn't use that material in my filters anyway.
> 
> Either way there's no good reason anyone here should get the least bit upset about another's choices or excessively ague/debate about it. 'nuff said.


Just to be clear, you cannot boil it out either. It is embedded into the fibers. 

If rinsing doesn't work, but boiling did, it wouldn't be much of a fire retardant since heat would be the release then... 

BTW, the best way to protect yourself from fires is replace your smoke detector battery every 6 months and replace the smoke detector itself every few years. 

Smoke detectors save lives. Blankets do not.


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

audioaficionado said:


> We need some kind of fire retardant in these materials as many people have been maimed and killed by burning clothing and bedding.


 
Don't smoke in bed and use/wear natural fibers. Done. No fire retardants necessary. 

And yes, I work in the textile industry and deal with the CPSC laws about flammability and textiles all the time.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Betta Maniac said:


> Don't smoke in bed and use/wear natural fibers. Done. No fire retardants necessary.
> 
> And yes, I work in the textile industry and deal with the CPSC laws about flammability and textiles all the time.


Yup. Ironically this flame retardant stuff will melt to your body just fine. If it is to that point, you'll have succumbed to smoke inhalation already. Unfortunately.


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

Electric blankets or heating pads will fire up your bedding too. My wife left ours on several years ago and it was wadded up and got so hot that I couldn't hardly touch it inside. It went in the trash that day and we've never replaced it. Down comforters FTW.

If it doesn't leach out in water, what's the problem anyway?


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Really? Implying that I am trying to create paranoia sounds a bit.....paranoid. Don't you think? If you want to debate it with others, that's fine. But implying I have an object here other than to inform others of the known harmful contents is ludicrous. 

If it is so harmless, why would major companies such stop using these types of chemicals in their manufacturing process? And why would it matter if this causes someone to stop using chemically treated materials in the fish tank? There are plenty of chemical free, and often cheaper battings available for the consumer. This is really a non issue.


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## DKRST (Jan 20, 2011)

Thanks sewingalot for the caution info!
When in doubt, avoid questionable chemicals when you can. DDT was passed of as perfectly safe for years., as was smoking. I _don_'t think this flame retardant is in the same league as DDT, just pointing out that funding for health impact studies of chemicals lags waaay behind the yearly output of new chemicals. 

If someone wants to debate the health risks associated with PDBE using the primary science literature sources, let's go! (but let's move any discussion to The Lounge).


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## zdnet (Aug 13, 2010)

Rich Conley said:


> Yeah, thats pretty much exactly what it said. Unless you're a pregnant mother.


You don't have to be pregnant...

You don't even have to be a woman...

Age doesn't matter...

A very large increase from 0.77 ppb (in 1973) to 61.7 ppb (in 2003)...

The blood levels of PBDE in U.S. men and women are similar to those
found in U.S. human milk. They are the highest reported worldwide. See:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15761315


As to fetuses and infants, although their PBDE levels are somewhat lower than those in adults, they too have high levels of PBDE. See:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17162494


People do not have to eat PBDE by the pound. They are born with plenty of it already!

Like PCB, PBDE shares a similar chemical structure.

Like PCB, PBDE is an endocrine disruptor upsetting people's hormonal balance.


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

Well to each his own. I'm not chancing it and Sara was only trying to help. Cya all elsewhere.


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## CWO4GUNNER (Nov 30, 2010)

I really think most of us need to step back and look at the big picture, the necessary chemicals that have powered the industrial age and yes also toxify us as a byproduct over time, is the very least of our problems about to face each and every one of us.


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