# Is it okay to put plants in right away in a brand new aquarium?



## Aqua3 (Aug 5, 2016)

I have done research for months and have watched videos of aquascapers putting plants directly in the aquarium that still has to go through the nitrogen cycle.

The reason I am bringing this up is because my LFS says I should wait for the cycle to end until I put live plants, he even suggested adding things like danios to add waste to quicken the cycle.

Now from all my research, I know fish cycles are somewhat cruel putting the fish through those harsh conditions. Yes a lot of the time they will survive but it is somewhat cruel.

Also I am aware that plants suck up the nitrates as nutrients and even use nitrites and ammonia as well.

Can anyone shed some light on this.

This LFS is honestly the best one near me, but it seems they give some silly information. 

*my tank is a 20 long and plan for it to be a heavily planted low tech aquarium. Eco-complete, finnex stingray LED, floruish root tabs, may add fertz.


Thanks.


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## scapegoat (Jun 3, 2010)

Yes, you can. It is often recommended.

Here's my recommendation though: buy at least 1.5 times the amount of plants you think you need... 2-3 times is probably better.

I am grabbing random images off of the internet, so I apologize if these are anyone's aquariums.

You don't want your aquarium to look like this after planting.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx229/KShoes123/Aquarium013.jpg
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3121/3160690327_2d44a22e07_z.jpg?zz=1

This is much better:

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t30/erodstrom/IMG_1078.jpg

plant the ever loving hell out of your tank.


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## Dr. Acula (Oct 14, 2009)

For sure, stuff it with plants immediately. Even consider the dry start method is often used very successfully, which wouldn't work at all if there was a problem with plants in a newly filled tank. Maybe the fact that some plants melt or transition from emersed to immersed forms when planted is causing some confusion?


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

The interesting thing is that in a heavily planted tank the plants will use ammonia as their [preferred] source of nitrogen, leaving little for beneficial bacteria to process. With your substrate choice I'd go ahead and plant away and after you've done a few partial water changes, and testing for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates, you could start adding fish, just a few at a time. Your beneficial bacteria population will likely grow slowly and be very small, but it will rise and fall based on the available ammonia, which with all the plants will be very low....but that's great - the less ammonia processed by nitrosomonas and nitrospira, the lower the nitrates.

(btw, ammonia is the preferred N2 source for most plants. Nitrates are used by some plants, but there a far fewer although in the absence of ammonia some plants can switch to use nitrates.)


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## Aqua3 (Aug 5, 2016)

scapegoat said:


> Yes, you can. It is often recommended.
> 
> Here's my recommendation though: buy at least 1.5 times the amount of plants you think you need... 2-3 times is probably better.
> 
> ...


Thanks, that is what I figured, it was just strange hearing that from my LFS. I know a lot of LFS are like that especially things like petco, but still.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Aqua3 said:


> ..
> The reason I am bringing this up is because *my LFS says I should wait for the cycle to end until I put live plants,* he even suggested adding things like danios to add waste to quicken the cycle.


Those LFS guys. They've got to stop with the comedy. :grin2:


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## theatermusic87 (Jun 22, 2014)

If you decide to go this route, you can definitely do a fishless cycle with plants in as well, though I would be careful not to go crazy high on the ammonia dose... maybe 1-2ppm instead of the 3-5ppm you sometimes see reccomend. Just because plants like ammonia primarily, doesn't mean they like high concentrations of it


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## Aqua3 (Aug 5, 2016)

theatermusic87 said:


> If you decide to go this route, you can definitely do a fishless cycle with plants in as well, though I would be careful not to go crazy high on the ammonia dose... maybe 1-2ppm instead of the 3-5ppm you sometimes see reccomend. Just because plants like ammonia primarily, doesn't mean they like high concentrations of it


I am not dosing ammonia. I figured adding a bunch of plants and letting it cycle naturally, With the bacteria from eco-complete and the plants, I am thinking it should take between 2-4 weeks to cycle. Not sure.


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## AdamTill (Jan 22, 2015)

With no source of ammonia it won't cycle. You'll even potentially kill off any beneficial bacterial on the plants that would have helped colonize the tank (assuming they came from a cycled tank).

You can wait as long as you want, but the bacterial levels only rise to the level of the ammonia source in the tank (ie fish, in the long term). The water will seem to test fine, but then the first ammonia source you add will blow the capacity of the filter bacteria.


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## Aqua3 (Aug 5, 2016)

AdamTill said:


> With no source of ammonia it won't cycle. You'll even potentially kill off any beneficial bacterial on the plants that would have helped colonize the tank (assuming they came from a cycled tank).
> 
> You can wait as long as you want, but the bacterial levels only rise to the level of the ammonia source in the tank (ie fish, in the long term). The water will seem to test fine, but then the first ammonia source you add will blow the capacity of the filter bacteria.



I am no expert and still a novice but all the research I have done says you can add plants, substrate, etc and then let it sit until the ammonia is 0, the nitrites are 0, and there are low nitrate levels. 

So could you explain it to me.

I don't want to add fish, I think that is somewhat cruel to the fish.

What do you suggest?


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## AdamTill (Jan 22, 2015)

That's okay, we all start somewhere.

You're mostly correct, in that the end of a filter cycle will show 0 ammonia and nitrite when the pH is above 6.5 (other things happen below that, don't worry if you're not in that range).

What you're missing is an understanding of the carrying capacity of the filter...not just THAT there are denitrifying bacteria, but HOW MANY there are.

If you run an Aquaclear 110 filter (or any) on a tank with 1 neon tetra, over time the bacteria will build up to the level that processes the waste from that 1 fish, and anything in the environment (food, substrate etc).

If you add another 100 tetras, there won't be enough bacteria to process the waste levels however.

Likewise, if your filter is normally supporting 100 tetras and and you remove 99 of them, bacteria will starve to the level to support that one tetra again.

So if you don't add a source of ammonia (and your substrate isn't doing it for you...most won't), you never build up a colony sufficient to support the fish later on.

By dosing a load of ammonia in a fishless cycle most people build up way too much bacteria at first, then it dies off to the level of what the fish need long term.

You can run a fish in cycle if you're prepared to monitor levels and change enough water to keep them at safe levels, but I agree and prefer a fishless cycle. I haven't needed that in two years, however, since I just keep a few extra sponge filters running in existing tanks to steal for new tanks.

Hope that helps!


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## Aqua3 (Aug 5, 2016)

AdamTill said:


> That's okay, we all start somewhere.
> 
> You're mostly correct, in that the end of a filter cycle will show 0 ammonia and nitrite when the pH is above 6.5 (other things happen below that, don't worry if you're not in that range).
> 
> ...


Thanks, I already knew that the bacteria would only be enough for say 1 fish, or 100 fish and will die when there isn't enough ammonia. 

I thought ammonia will develop in a tank with water anyway. Then the bacteria from the plants and eco-complete would start the nitrogen cycle. 

So what do you suggest as adding ammonia in the tank? Things like dr.tim's bacteria? heard good and bad things about it. I also heard the ammonia bought stores can contain chemicals toxic to fish. 

quick response is appreciated

Bump:


AdamTill said:


> That's okay, we all start somewhere.
> 
> You're mostly correct, in that the end of a filter cycle will show 0 ammonia and nitrite when the pH is above 6.5 (other things happen below that, don't worry if you're not in that range).
> 
> ...


Also, isn't if I do the method of not adding fish or ammonia and just let the tank sit, Isn't that fine, as I would slowly add fish(3-5) at a time over 3-4 week time. And if I do the ammonia method, I can add most if not all of the fish from the get go? I plan on a large school of small fish (ember tetra, glowlight danio, harlequin rasboras. I might also add shrimp and I do know some of the fish I listed will eat shrimp. 

I am fine with either method but just wondering what ammonia additive to buy


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## AdamTill (Jan 22, 2015)

Literally household ammonia with no additives or scents. Aqaurium water can't generate ammonia, it has to come from somewhere (even fish food decomposing etc).


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## scapegoat (Jun 3, 2010)

Heavily plant the tank, toss in a few fish from whatever species you want to end up with, do weekly water changes.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

scapegoat said:


> Heavily plant the tank, toss in a few fish from whatever species you want to end up with, do weekly water changes.


The thing you can't do successfully is to buy a full tank load of fish and immediately put them in the tank. Before the ammonia load from the fish can be processed by the bacteria colony in the tank the bacteria have to grow to match the ammonia load, and that takes time. The fish will likely die or become very unhealthy if you try that. But, I always start my tank with a full load of plants, wait a couple of weeks, then add a small portion of the fish I intend to keep. But, I also always put lots of plants in the tank, and those have bacteria already growing on them. For my 65 gallon tank that is generally a half dozen small fish. I wait another week or two, and add some more fish, perhaps a school (8-10) small fish. I wait another week or two and add the rest of the fish. With that much water the first small batch of fish can't generate enough ammonia to harm themselves before the bacteria colony catches up. Likewise, the second batch can't either. Even better, you should get some mulm from a cycled tank filter, and add it to your filter from the start. That assures you that you will have a starter colony of bacteria. I believe this is how most experienced planted tank keepers do it.


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## scapegoat (Jun 3, 2010)

Hoppy said:


> The thing you can't do successfully is to buy a full tank load of fish and immediately put them in the tank.


absolutely not advocating a full fish load right away. I literally meant 3 fish with a heavily planted tank.

Over the past many years I've done heavy planting with a fresh tank, and introducing fish right away. typically it's been a pair of kribensis that have gone from tank to tank, sometimes with no acclimation period... I think they were invincible though.

I wouldn't hesitate to immediately introduce a few fish to a tank right away, as long as it has been heavily planted from the start.

I'm really more advocating heavily planting from the start. I think the worst think someone new to planted tanks can do is buy 6-7 plants and expect success. I know it's more expensive to purchase 20-30 individual plants for an aquarium, but it's really worth stuffing a new tank full of plants... like 2-3 times more than what folks think they need. guilty of that myself still... bought ~100 plants for my 125 a few years ago, I'd have been happier with 200...


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

If you do it the way hobby just described you don't need to bother with all this ammonia, bacteria starters, etc. Get the plants growing first and healthy and slowly add fish and change water. That's what makes planted tanks so great. 

BTW Not only is there bacteria growing on plants there's ammonia being produced by any damaged or dying leaves. Which all tanks have when you first put plants in. Seeding it with mulm as hobby mentioned is always a great idea.


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