# Water changes can kill your fish from ammonia spikes.



## JuanPeces1508 (Dec 18, 2015)

thats shocking. just did a water change ill test it right now


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

This is something that has been around for years. By this time, I would have thought just about everyone knew about it. However, it's worth repeating. 

As much as I don't care for API, I don't know if you can put all the blame on them. The produce does deal with the Chloramines and chlorine. If the water had been aged a few days after using the product, I don't think you would have had a problem.


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## JuanPeces1508 (Dec 18, 2015)

api shouldve place a warning on the label, from now on ill let my water age before every water change.


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## Straight shooter (Nov 26, 2015)

Whoa! Slow down with the accusations about API TW Conditioner. 

APITWC detoxifies the ammonia in chloramine making it harmless to livestock. This ammonia is then consumed by nitrifying bacteria. You will still get an ammonia reading, consider it a false positive and ignore it.

Prime does exactly the same thing so you've effectively wasted your money buying 2 products that perform the same function. 

Research first..... then post.


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## JuanPeces1508 (Dec 18, 2015)

but ammonia causes algae


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## Zhylis (Nov 25, 2015)

Straight shooter said:


> Whoa! Slow down with the accusations about API TW Conditioner.
> 
> APITWC detoxifies the ammonia in chloramine making it harmless to livestock. This ammonia is then consumed by nitrifying bacteria. You will still get an ammonia reading, consider it a false positive and ignore it.
> 
> ...


MSDS for API Tap Water Conditioner

Actually, API Tap Water Conditioner does *not *detoxify ammonia (unless they've recently changed their formula within the last year). Last I knew, API TCW is sodium thiosulfate, which breaks apart chloramine but does not bind the resulting ammonia. It can cause an ammonia spike. It is not the same as Prime or AmQuel.


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## Straight shooter (Nov 26, 2015)

You're right. Thankfully the plants will take up the small amount of ammonia present very quickly anyway, as will the nitrifying bacteria.


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## redranger (Dec 13, 2015)

JuanPeces1508 said:


> thats shocking. just did a water change ill test it right now


Get one of these babies and you can monitor the ammonia in real time. 

Aquarium Test Kits : Amazon.com: Seachem Ammonia Alert

Mine turned from yellow(safe) to green(alert) settings. 

I am not sure how you prepare the water, such as in 5 gallon buckets but maybe try testing the entire treated container of water then test the ammonia before and after adding the tap water conditioner and let me know what you find. 

I had absolutely no idea that these water changes were so deadly. I always thought that a fish would die from a water change because of a temperature shock or PH shock. 

Now I know it was because of ammonia caused by the water change. 

The ironic part is that I change the water to bring down ammonia but I was actually increasing it.

Bump:


DaveK said:


> This is something that has been around for years. By this time, I would have thought just about everyone knew about it. However, it's worth repeating.
> 
> As much as I don't care for API, I don't know if you can put all the blame on them. The produce does deal with the Chloramines and chlorine. If the water had been aged a few days after using the product, I don't think you would have had a problem.


It may deal with Chlorine however I don't consider dealing with Chloramines by converting it into a more toxic ammonia. 

Chloramines maybe take some time to kill fish however ammonia is much more toxic I think. 

They should really advertise it as a Chlorine remover and say that if you have Chloramines, then you need to use another product with additives to deal with the resulting ammonia. 

The only reason I know about this is because I read the information on the seachem Prime page and was shocked to learn this myself!!! 

I don't see how letting the water age would do anything unless you have biological filtration that can convert the ammonia to nitrites, nitrates,etc.. 

You are saying it will evaporate or something? 
Even if that were the case, the API product advertises that it works instantly to detoxify both Chlorine and Chloramines. 

Detoxify Chloramines ( by converting it into more toxic chemical! ) 

Wow, I wonder if this is ground for a class action. I am not a lawsuit type of guy but this is very reckless on their part.


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## SL Dan (Sep 20, 2015)

Did you lose fish?


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## redranger (Dec 13, 2015)

Straight shooter said:


> You're right. Thankfully the plants will take up the small amount of ammonia present very quickly anyway, as will the nitrifying bacteria.


I believe the API Stress coat product does have additives to detoxify the resulting ammonia however their standard TAP WATER CONDITIONER™ does not! 

So that guy doing an aggressive emergency water change or a newbie setting up an aquarium for the first time is going to kill their fish with the resulting ammonia from the water change. 

I really hated chloramines before but now I REALLY REALLY hate chloramines now that I found out it byproduct is ammonia when using tap water conditioner. 

I am going to write them a letter telling them they need a warning label or to update their formula to include chemicals to deal with ammonia. 

Its foolish to say that it will detoxify chloramines but fail to tell you that you get massive ammonia as a result. 

Its like detoxifying methane gas by replacing it with nerve gas. Its a deadly step in the wrong direction.

Bump:


SL Dan said:


> Did you lose fish?


I have lost a lot of fish due to this. 

Probably like 15 neon tetras and a ton of tropical fish, and I could not figure out what I was doing wrong. 

I probably put my goldifsh though hell with the ammonia spikes. 

Everything stop dying when I started using prime vs the API product and now I know why.

I have been keeping fish for years. If this happen to me, then I am sure it happening to other people. 

API is owned my MARS( the Candy tycoon) M&M, Skills, Mars bar, dove, etc... 3 musketeers, big red, etc.. over 33 Billion dollars last year and over 75,000 people. 
They are partly own by Berkshire Hathaway(Buffett 2nd richest man in the world)

You would think they would know better then that.


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## chocological (Nov 13, 2012)

Straight shooter said:


> Research first..... then post.


:laugh2:


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Many, many people have been doing 50% water changes about every week and this is the first time I have read anything about fish being killed by the ammonia in the chloramine from those water changes. I have always used Prime, largely because it is designed to be used with chloramine treated water. It has always been known that the ammonia test will show a positive reading when you use Prime, or any of the similar products. But, that ammonia doesn't kill the fish, nor does it cause algae (as far as I know from my experience and reading here, as well as from watching "expert" planted tank members doing water changes.)


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Hysterical noise is often passed as information. Examine the amount of ammonia in chloramine and then rethink the subject. 

Since millions of people use this product daily without trouble does is make sense that you would be the only person to notice it suddenly kills the fish? 
People who don't like to be "forced" to have clean, safe water should consider the alternative. There are many places where you can live and die without having clean water available. 

If you have not cleaned the tank routinely and then do a water change to stir a lot of muck out of the bottom, you can kill your fish but it is not the dechlor product that is at fault.


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## Zhylis (Nov 25, 2015)

I'd say ammonia toxicity would depend on several factors: the pH, temperature, and the size of the water change. 

I've actually had issues with ammonia toxicity when dechlorinating tap water when I lived in Portland. This was during the set up of completely new breeding tanks. I used to use pelleted sodium thiosulfate from Kens Fish because it's a really cheap and effective dechlor. Unfortunately, the tap water also tested 2-3ppm for chloramines. 

Back of the envelope number crunching: 
Average chloramine concentration - 2.5 ppm

Ratio of molar mass of ammonia:chloramine - approx. 1:3

So, 2.5 * 0.33 = 0.825 ppm of total ammonia generated by dechlorination.

I ran breeding tanks for F0-F2 Rift Lake mbunas @ pH 8.6, temperature @ 82°F.

Which results in ~0.18 ppm of toxic NH3. The fish weren't flopping over dead, but they were definitely flashing, clamping, and gasping. I ended up having to switch to Prime for water changes. (It's relief to be in Ohio, just to be on a Cl2 system. Water is hard as rock, but at least I don't have to play with chloramines.)


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## redranger (Dec 13, 2015)

Hoppy said:


> Many, many people have been doing 50% water changes about every week and this is the first time I have read anything about fish being killed by the ammonia in the chloramine from those water changes. I have always used Prime, largely because it is designed to be used with chloramine treated water. It has always been known that the ammonia test will show a positive reading when you use Prime, or any of the similar products. But, that ammonia doesn't kill the fish, nor does it cause algae (as far as I know from my experience and reading here, as well as from watching "expert" planted tank members doing water changes.)


Because Prime and other products have added chemicals to deal with ammonia converting it into a non-toxic form of ammonia whereas the API product will have the real toxic ammonia which will kill or damage fish.


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## redranger (Dec 13, 2015)

PlantedRich said:


> Hysterical noise is often passed as information. Examine the amount of ammonia in chloramine and then rethink the subject.
> 
> Since millions of people use this product daily without trouble does is make sense that you would be the only person to notice it suddenly kills the fish?
> People who don't like to be "forced" to have clean, safe water should consider the alternative. There are many places where you can live and die without having clean water available.
> ...



What are you talking about? 

These are relatively new tanks without muck in the bottle and most tap water conditioners I have seen have additives to convert ammonia into a non-toxic form except this particular API product. 

Do you think its going to make national news that little Sussie's barbie aquarium fish died? Its not exactly news worth considering the terrorist threat at our doorstep. 

I don't even know how to respond to the " There are many places where you can live and die without having clean water available. " comment of your Bernie.

Maybe too many types of deodorants are causing kids to starve or I should not care about a product creating toxic ammonia from tap water because there is aids in Africa? This is a nonsense argument and not relevant whatsoever to this post. 


Perhaps with heavy biological filtration, planted tanks and smaller water changes the fish might be able to survive the ammonia dump in the treated water however its reckless of the API company to advertise a product works instantly and removes chloramines without telling you its converting those chloramines into toxic ammonia. 

People want a water conditioner that is going to make the tap water safe for the fish not more toxic which is exactly what this is doing since ammonia is more toxic than chloramines. 

I have lost many neon tetras after every 50% water change even know I made sure the temperature was equal and as soon as I got the real time ammonia monitor and found out about the chloramines converted by ammonia(toxic in API's case), I now know why. 

Companies in the USA have been sued for far less.


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## Marty.h (Dec 20, 2015)

I know I'm new here but for those with not to good water would it not make sense to use a 4 stage RO system then just re-mineralise as that's what I will be doing if I change back to freshwater from marine I would just use RO water at least that has a 0 TDS with all nasties removed.


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## redranger (Dec 13, 2015)

NERD!!!! :nerd:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRsPheErBj8

Just kidding. You are really smart and did not think anyone actually did the mathematical calculations on it. Are you a chemist? 


I am not sure why so many water districts are using chloramines instead of chlorine now. I am frankly upset that they are adding many chemicals which are disastrous for fish and possible may be linked to lower IQ and other defects/diseases into the water such as fluoride. 

The directive for the water treatment plants is suppose to make the water as clean and safe to drink as possible not to try to do medical experience on massive of people or forced mass medication of a population. I believe there are these Eugenics people who have suggested mass sterilization of a population by adding chemicals in the drinking water to sterilize mass groups of people. 

I know that this translate into being very bad for the fish, plants and especially in salt water aquariums for more delicate fish and corals. 

I actually have read the tap water condition report from my local water district and 2 out of the 3 around me are using chloramines vs chlorine. 

I hear they are being pressured by the feds to use chloramines instead of chlorine which is where all these problems come from. 

These chloramines I think are even issue with RO water. 

Technology and infrastructure is suppose to get better not worse. This is very disturbing. 



Zhylis said:


> I'd say ammonia toxicity would depend on several factors: the pH, temperature, and the size of the water change.
> 
> I've actually had issues with ammonia toxicity when dechlorinating tap water when I lived in Portland. This was during the set up of completely new breeding tanks. I used to use pelleted sodium thiosulfate from Kens Fish because it's a really cheap and effective dechlor. Unfortunately, the tap water also tested 2-3ppm for chloramines.
> 
> ...


Bump:


Marty.h said:


> I know I'm new here but for those with not to good water would it not make sense to use a 4 stage RO system then just re-mineralise as that's what I will be doing if I change back to freshwater from marine I would just use RO water at least that has a 0 TDS with all nasties removed.


I have heard that RO may even have issues with Chloramine leaving behind ammonia. 

May I ask what RO unit you have? Do you have bad tap water in your area? 

Is there a lot of waste water with the RO unit? 

I have a zerowater which is kind of a small pitcher product they sell at target I think. I am considering getting something more industrial for my new saltwater aquarium. 

Please let me know what you are using. 

Thanks


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

Redranger, I'd suggest switching to Prime. Thanks for the warnings about the API product, though I have a hunch there may be more at play here than ammonia. Your specific results of mass fish death are clearly not the norm. If, after a couple months of Prime use, you could report back, it would be a better indicator of whether the API product and ammonia were the problem. Also interesting would be testing tank water after 1 hour, 12 hours, and 24 hours to see how quickly the tank deals with the excess ammonia. Both plants and beneficial bacteria feed on it, so it should disappear fairly quickly. "Heavy biological filtration" basically applies to all mature planted tanks, as there are only enough bacteria to consume the amount of ammonia available. Excess bacteria starve and die off.

Marty.h, RO water works, but it requires the user to re-mineralize the water for use. It's more expensive, requires more work, and is usually not necessary, though those who have hard water, and for whatever reason require soft water, may choose to use it. And most of the "nasties" that are removed are either beneficial or harmless in a planted tank. But no harm in it if you're okay with the requirements that come along with it.


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## Marty.h (Dec 20, 2015)

@redranger 

I have a 4 stage unit with Di pod my TDS from tap water is around 300 and nitrates can be as high as 50ppm



@kevmo911 
Only reason I would use RO is because I already run a system for my marine setup and to re-mineralise the water would still work out a lot cheaper then the salt I'm currently mixing with it at least you then know the quality of the water you are putting into the tank.


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## redranger (Dec 13, 2015)

kevmo911 said:


> Redranger, I'd suggest switching to Prime. Thanks for the warnings about the API product, though I have a hunch there may be more at play here than ammonia. Your specific results of mass fish death are clearly not the norm. If, after a couple months of Prime use, you could report back, it would be a better indicator of whether the API product and ammonia were the problem. Also interesting would be testing tank water after 1 hour, 12 hours, and 24 hours to see how quickly the tank deals with the excess ammonia. Both plants and beneficial bacteria feed on it, so it should disappear fairly quickly. "Heavy biological filtration" basically applies to all mature planted tanks, as there are only enough bacteria to consume the amount of ammonia available. Excess bacteria starve and die off.


It was not massive fish dead with 1 water charge but it would be like a few neon tetra would die with each water change and those deaths added up in the long run into a lot of fish dying. 

I was trying to keep a very clean tank and the fish that would die, the more I did water changes and it just escalated into a lot of fish dying. Since I started to use Prime, the fish death have stopped. 

Also, to be fair, its not ALL API products which are a problem. For example, stress coat by API I think had added chemcials to deal wtih ammonia however their basic " API tap water conditioner" does not. Which kind of makes it worse that they are aware of the problem but continue to tell their products to people who will be harming their fish as a result. 

Quickly setting up a temporary holding tank for fish by adding tap water and API condition would result in your fish being dumped into a holding tank filled with ammonia which is not what people expect from a tap water conditioner. 

I hear people at Petco saying to people " Put this tap water condition if your tank and the water is now safe for fish" which is not true of the basic API product. 

At very least, they should issue a warning on the label. However I would prefer they revise their formula to detoxify the ammonia. You know that API is own my Mars which is a multi billion dollar company and is also partly owned by warren buffet, the 2nd richest man in the world. So they would know better and make this product safe or at least warm people of the dangers.


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## Zhylis (Nov 25, 2015)

redranger said:


> Just kidding. You are really smart and did not think anyone actually did the mathematical calculations on it. Are you a chemist?


> My poison of choice is viruses, but I know enough chemistry to do the basics. Plus when you've got $600+ in fish that are completely stresses as [censored], you try to figure out what went wrong ASAP and NEVER repeat it. Seeing an API ammonia test hit 1ppm straight from the tap about gave me a heart attack. Especially when the pH in the tanks range between 8.2 and 12. Ammonia is deadly then, especially with wild-caught fish.

If I was running S. American biotopes, I wouldn't even blink. There would have been practically no NH3 to speak of. One of the downsides of the Rift Lakes...


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

When chloramines were first used in tap water in place of chlorine many people with aquariums had trouble with the ammonia. At that time all dechlorinators could only neutralize chlorine, not chloramine. This created a problem for all aquariums, and people quickly learned that the traditional dechlorinators no longer worked. Since then Prime and some of the other manufacturers products were made to effectively handle chloramine treated water. In other words this was once a problem, but it is now common knowledge in the hobby, and is no longer a problem for those who have kept up with the changes in the hobby. I didn't think you could even still buy a dechlorinator that doesn't handle the ammonia in chloramines.

Chloramine was put in use because it works better than chlorine to kill bacteria in tap water. Chlorine has a relatively short life in water piping, causing some households to get water that had bacteria loads that exceeded safe limits. Chloramine is much more stable and eliminated that problem. I think it is now required that all tap water be switched over to chloramines. Since that water is for human consumption, not for keeping fish, that was a good decision. If there is a villain here it is pet stores and fish stores where they still sell the old dechlorinators and falsely tell their customers that it works with their local water.

Maybe the lesson to be learned again is that pet stores and fish stores are not the place to get information about how to do this hobby.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Many of the cheaper dechlors will not do anything about the ammonia. 
If you read the label there will be no instructions about ammonia. 

Some good dechlors can also be used to help the fish when a problem crops up that results in ammonia in the tank. Then you can dose some of these dechlors, and it will lock up the ammonia. 

The good ones will state how much chlorine, chloramine and ammonia a certain dose will deal with. 

The almost as good ones will state that they do not handle ammonia, and you should buy one of the other products the company makes. Sometimes this is in fine print, and new comers to fish keeping might not know that this is a problem. 

The cheap/bad ones will try to make it sound good by listing chloramine, but remain mute about the ammonia. Often these are sold at chain stores.


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## Zhylis (Nov 25, 2015)

The problem for me was/is that use of chloramine isn't standard across the nation. Out of the 5 places that I've lived, only Portland used chloramines. Every other place used Cl2 gas or NaOCl. My fault for not checking the water quality report after moving. There's not exactly a warning for that sort of thing. Live and learn, I guess.

In any case, a simple switch to Prime smoothed that transition.


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## redranger (Dec 13, 2015)

Hoppy said:


> When chloramines were first used in tap water in place of chlorine many people with aquariums had trouble with the ammonia. At that time all dechlorinators could only neutralize chlorine, not chloramine. This created a problem for all aquariums, and people quickly learned that the traditional dechlorinators no longer worked. Since then Prime and some of the other manufacturers products were made to effectively handle chloramine treated water. In other words this was once a problem, but it is now common knowledge in the hobby, and is no longer a problem for those who have kept up with the changes in the hobby. I didn't think you could even still buy a dechlorinator that doesn't handle the ammonia in chloramines.
> 
> Chloramine was put in use because it works better than chlorine to kill bacteria in tap water. Chlorine has a relatively short life in water piping, causing some households to get water that had bacteria loads that exceeded safe limits. Chloramine is much more stable and eliminated that problem. I think it is now required that all tap water be switched over to chloramines. Since that water is for human consumption, not for keeping fish, that was a good decision. If there is a villain here it is pet stores and fish stores where they still sell the old dechlorinators and falsely tell their customers that it works with their local water.
> 
> Maybe the lesson to be learned again is that pet stores and fish stores are not the place to get information about how to do this hobby.


Chloramine actually work worse in sterilizing water. If you are trying to sterilize something, you use bleach. When they were making a containment area for Ebola, they would dig trenches around the area and use tons of bleach in it to make a perimeter that Ebola could not escape, they did not use Chloramine. In swimming pools, they use chlorine but Chloramine because it works much better at killing bacteria and diseases. 

Chloramine will last longer but does a worse job at killing the things you are trying to kill in tap water.
Adding chloramine to the water supply will cause the pipes to corrode increase exposure to lead, due to the corrosion of lead pipes, resulting in increased lead levels in the bloodstream, which can pose a significant health risk. 

Your body is better able to handle bacteria then lead. 

Unless there is an area which has the problem that you described of the chlorine breaking down before it reaches its destination, chlorine should have been the better choice. 

Now we have constantly worse water quality for all so everyone can be even. 

Secondly, you make it seem that the only problems are happening with people using a 20 year old water water conditioner they found in their grandmother's basement. 


The API product which I purchase was maybe 1 year ago. API still continues to make and sell this product advertising it will make tap water safe for aquariums instantly for both Chlorine and Chloramines. I actually saw it at the pet store yesterday. 

So the fish stores are responsible to warning people to stay away from Aquarium pharmaceuticals incorporated(API) owned by a multi-billion dollar company because they want to continue to sell an outdated product and refuse to put a warning label on it? 

I am thinking that API has some explaining to do.


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## redranger (Dec 13, 2015)

Diana said:


> Many of the cheaper dechlors will not do anything about the ammonia.
> If you read the label there will be no instructions about ammonia.
> 
> Some good dechlors can also be used to help the fish when a problem crops up that results in ammonia in the tank. Then you can dose some of these dechlors, and it will lock up the ammonia.
> ...


This information should at very least be disclosed as well as perhaps a waiting period for the ammonia to evaporate in the event of Chloramine being used. 

Its reckless to say that it works instantly and will remove Chloramine from tap water without saying what chemical it will convert it to. 
API is own by Mars one of the largest companies in the world and Warren Buffet(2nd richest person in the world) and not some fly by night company. This is like the google of pet products doing something that you might expect from a Chinese counterfeit product. 

This is so irresponsible of API, I can't believe it. You know, I don't expect companies to do inner city outreach programs or build community gardens, or build homes for the homeless,etc... 

The one thing I expect them to do is have a product that *does what its suppose to do*!!! This is the one thing this API product does not do!


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## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

Yeah, this has been known about products like this, that don't detoxify ammonia when the bond between chlorine and ammonia (chloramine) has been broken.
Even mentioned here API Tap Water Conditioner (bottom of page)
I understand what you mean though. Always got to be aware of marketing tactics of companies trying to take advantage of the unknowing consumers. API does have other products that are good though.

With that said though, you must have a pretty high level of chloramine in your tap water to kill off your fish so fast. On the Seachem Ammonia Alert, yellow (safe) to green (alert) would not be enough ammonia present to kill the fish so quickly.

Here is Seachem's interpretation of the readings:
"As little as 0.02 mg/L of free ammonia will produce a greenish hue on the detector surface. This corresponds to a total ammonia (both ionized and free ammonia) of 0.25 mg/L in marine water at pH 8.3. In freshwater at pH 7.0, this corresponds to 3.6 mg/L total ammonia. Free ammonia is much more toxic than ionized ammonia. As free ammonia, the ALERT color corresponds to about 0.05 mg/L, ALARM to about 0.2 mg/L, and TOXIC to about 0.5 mg/L. The *ALERT* concentration is *tolerated for several days*, ALARM for a few days, and TOXIC is rapidly harmful. This product is not recommended for use at acid pH" Seachem. Ammonia Alert

Google your city's water quality report or call your local water department and look into how much chloramine is found in your tap water.
What is your tank pH and temperature (as they have effect on toxicity)?

Not "challenging" you (as I do know the product in question doesn't detoxify ammonia -BTW most water conditioners that detoxify ammonia only do so for 24 hours which usually is enough time for nitrifying bacteria to take care of it before the ammonia is free again), just trying to help get to the bottom of what is really causing the fish deaths. So I would recommend looking into other possibilities that are causing the fish deaths (disease, etc.) as I doubt the whole, chloramine/ammonia issue, is the main cause of death. Before pointing fingers, all variables should be looked at.

By the way, much respect for calling in about the fluoride.


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## redranger (Dec 13, 2015)

Zhylis said:


> The problem for me was/is that use of chloramine isn't standard across the nation. Out of the 5 places that I've lived, only Portland used chloramines. Every other place used Cl2 gas or NaOCl. My fault for not checking the water quality report after moving. There's not exactly a warning for that sort of thing. Live and learn, I guess.
> 
> In any case, a simple switch to Prime smoothed that transition.


My understanding is that the US federal government is highly pressuring all water municipalities to use chloramines. However besides the problems already talked about here, they corrode old pipes and can cause lead to be in the water causing serious health issues for humans. My area use to be 100% chlorine however now there is only 1 chorine district and all others have been converted to chloramines. 

Not sure if its unintended consequences or if someone is trying to destroy us from the inside but a lot of these government decisions don't make a whole lot of sense to me however that may be a topic for another place and time. 

Another problem is there are a lot of video on youtube which people are tells people to age their water for a day or two then use it in their tank however chloramines last for a very long time and aging it for a few days will do nothing to stop it from harming fish. 

The funny thing is that chloramines don't even kill bacteria and diseases that well. Chlorine actually works a lot better. This entire this is about having it last longer even if it does not work well and causes lead in the water. 

So bottom line is chloramines are causing a lot of trouble for both humans, fish, plants, corals,etc... I drink bottled water when I can as well as use a water distiller combined with a small reverse osmosis filter.


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## Straight shooter (Nov 26, 2015)

In reality, chloramine exists as three different forms or species: monochloramine (NH2Cl), dichloramine (NHCl2) and trichloramine (NCl3). They are chemically related and are easily converted into each other; thus, they are more appropriately called chloramines. Water companies tell us that you will find only monochloramine, but it is impossible to have only monochloramine. It is not unusual in water systems for harmful di and trichloramines to occur.

The three species of chloramine constantly and rapidly shift from one form to another. The species that predominates is dependent on pH, temperature, turbulence, and the chlorine to ammonia ratio.

Chloramines are all respiratory irritants with trichloramine being the most toxic (order of toxicity: monochloramine < dichloramine < trichloramine-most severe.)

The biggest worry for us humans is not lead etc but trichloramine!


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## redranger (Dec 13, 2015)

WaterLife said:


> Yeah, this has been known about products like this, that don't detoxify ammonia when the bond between chlorine and ammonia (chloramine) has been broken.
> Even mentioned here API Tap Water Conditioner (bottom of page)
> I understand what you mean though. Always got to be aware of marketing tactics of companies trying to take advantage of the unknowing consumers. API does have other products that are good though.
> 
> ...


These "marketing tactics" are absolutely reprehensible to any reasonable person. Like I said before, API is own by mars, one of the largest companies in the world worth billions and billions(with a B) as well as Warren buffett(2nd richest guy in the world) do they really need to fool people with these shady " marketing tactics" ? 


The link you said which talked about the ammonia problem was written by Kmuda from the ultimate oscar community as kind of a sticky post not from API themselves. I actually have the API bottle in front of me and have read every inch of directions and it does not warn you at all about the ammonia problem. 

I guess he is saying its ok if you are dealing with only chlorine issues as a basic tap water conditioner however on the bottom it said " Somewhat Misleading Advertisement: Claims to "detoxify chloramine". I suppose, legally, this is correct. Because it breaks the chlorine/ammonia bond, so "chloramine" no longer exists. But what is left behind is toxic ammonia" 

This information is not common knowledge. I have been keeping fish for many years and I have just learned on this a few days ago. I had been under the impression that chloramine was just a harder type of chlorine to break down however its much worse then that! 


The seachem guide said that green is " tolerated for several days" but here is the problem. 

In a new tank setup when the beneficial bacteria colony is not as strong as it should be, the ammonia may already be in the green for several days. When a person takes action to lower the ammonia in the tank by performing aggressive water changes, they are actually increasing the ammonia even more. When they see the ammonia levels raising, they are going to perform even more water changes which lead to even higher ammonia. So you end up digging yourself deeper into the hole. 


My fish were fragile fish to begin with, the tank was not as established as it should have been. I had taking an overkill sponge filter from a established aquarium and placed it into the larger aquarium to get the ball rolling. 

All the water in the aquarium had been treated with the API product causing massive ammonia. The fish I got were stressed, fragile fish and probably in the green zone for far too long thanks to the API tap water conditioner. This is probably why I had so many fish die. 

On my other established tank, I have neon tetra which are like the canary of the aquarium world. If anything is wrong with the tank, they die first. Just like they used to use the canary to see if there was any toxic air in coal mining. 

So whenever I did a aggressive water change, the neon tetras would keep dying for no reason the next day. I did the master test kit before the water change and all levels are zero ammonia nitrites, nitrates.

The only thing I did is a aggressive water change using the API product with a sudden spike in ammonia and it would kill a few neon tetras each time. I would test and it had a spike in Ammonia. 

I believe some people use to say that doing a water change must have removed too much beneficial bacteria from the tank causing the spike however now we know better and that it was the water conditioner and chloramine . 

Thank you for the kind words about the fluoride issue. 
That is so messed up on so many levels, don't get me started on that. :smile2:

Fluoride Action Network | Broadening Public Awareness on Fluoride. Reading about the fluoride issue is also very upsetting. Probably 100 years in the future we will look back at fluoride in the drinking water like we look back at outlawed and outdated medical practices from 100 years ago. 

Thanks.


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## Straight shooter (Nov 26, 2015)

With regards to API...

What percentage of all tap water in the US is treated with chloramine? About 20%. So if we have a look at the API conundrum again, technically their product services over 80% of the US aquarium market effectively. The mass market really only needs chlorine removed, not chloramine. And this is just the US, could you imagine what percentage of the global market really needs chloramine detoxified.. even less again.. 

Why should they spend the money to insert a warning label on their packaging for only 1/5 of their market, or EVEN LESS of the global market?

https://www.wqa.org/Portals/0/Technical/Technical Fact Sheets/2014_Chloramine.pdf


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

> Wow, I wonder if this is ground for a class action. I am not a lawsuit type of guy but this is very reckless on their part.



You have to show damages for a lawsuit. I doubt very many lawyers will jump on for their percentage of a few lost neon tetras.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

Kubla said:


> "_Wow, I wonder if this is ground for a class action. I am not a lawsuit type of guy but this is very reckless on their part._"
> 
> You have to show damages for a lawsuit. I doubt very many lawyers will jump on for their percentage of a few lost neon tetras.


I can't see this being feasible at all. Petco still thinks that running your tank for 24 hours is cycling it. There is much more detrimental information out there in this hobby than anything mentioned in this thread, from what I read.

EDIT: Read some more of this thread. Aside from the laughs, I didn't really learn much. API's product doesn't seem to stack up to Prime. You live and learn. Hard to blame a product for something that is well documented online and not contained in the product description at all. Sounds a lot like common medicine and side effects.

EDIT 2:



Straight shooter said:


> W
> 
> Why should they spend the money to insert a warning label on their packaging for only 1/5 of their market, or EVEN LESS of the global market?


 Just to play devil's advocate, why do we need a warning label about babies drowning in 5 gallon buckets? I bet that pertains to less than 20% of the market. hahaha.


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## s_s (Feb 15, 2012)

In all seriousness, how can this topic somehow manage to get posters to invoke the demons of both "big fed gubmint" and "slimy, evil corporations" in the same breath? 

And how does no one mention the shadow government's genetic experiments to create alien-human hybrids?


Aren't we just asking a basic chemistry question? Does anyone have a MSDS on any of these products?


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

To be honest, the solution has been found already so there isn't much need for anything else.


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## Straight shooter (Nov 26, 2015)

Freemananana said:


> Just to play devil's advocate, why do we need a warning label about babies drowning in 5 gallon buckets? I bet that pertains to less than 20% of the market. hahaha.


That's more a point about the value of human life versus aquatic life when a company assesses for potential liability in lawsuits. Many more fish shrimp and plants die in buckets everyday than babies do, yet there is no warning on the label for that. 

Quick someone call child protective services!!!!



Proving APIs liability for livestock death and subsequently suing them relating to a product that has been around for YEARS, that treats possibly 95% of tap water effectively on a GLOBAL scale (not just US, not every country uses chloramine), sounds a tad absurd. 

APITWC has likely passed all of the necessary legal/regulatory requirements relating to it's sale as a pet product. This would have included providing detailed info about the chemicals used, known effects, toxicity etc.

If you did win, you wouldn't get much. The courts just don't value domestic animal welfare in dollar terms, except when dishing out fines for animal cruelty and neglect (as they should), but suing for the cost of your fish may cost $50000 just in legal fees to win at most $1000. Sounds risky. Especially up against a big company that can afford better lawyers than you can. Plus your condemning a product that has been around for ever..... Hmmmm...


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## redranger (Dec 13, 2015)

Straight shooter said:


> With regards to API...
> 
> What percentage of all tap water in the US is treated with chloramine? About 20%. So if we have a look at the API conundrum again, technically their product services over 80% of the US aquarium market effectively. The mass market really only needs chlorine removed, not chloramine. And this is just the US, could you imagine what percentage of the global market really needs chloramine detoxified.. even less again..
> 
> ...


My understanding is that the EPA is all but outright mandating Chloramines. Where do you come up with 20%? Those may have been 2008-2009 numbers before any pressure was placed on water treatment centers by the feds. 

If you do a search online, all you read about is various districts changing from chlorine to chloramines. You never see the opposite.

Why should they spend the money to type out the correct information on their bottles? So they are paying by the keystroke now? So a company with 33 Billion(with a B) sales revenue last year and over 75,000 employees is unable to spend money or staff on typing the correct information on their bottles? 

First of all because 1. Its advertises it works *instantly *for *chloramine *and implied that the water is now safe for fish when the chloramine is being replaced with an even more toxic chemical(ammonia) which may instantly kill the fish. That is why. 

Where do you get that only 20% of the US uses Chlorinates, when the trend is to get 100% using chlorinates and is was well over 20% over 6 years ago before the pressure was there by the feds? 

I live in a very densely populated part of the US and every water district is using chlorinates except 1. 

You know that companies have been sued and lost for far far less then this. Gnutella was sued and paid a settlement because some women thought it was health food since the commercial showed kids running around playing before they had it as part of their breakfast. 

Unlike Gnutella, this API thing is real legit negligence, false advertisement, immortal, reckless, etc.. with real consequences. 

There are 90 class-action against in that pet food contamination in 2007. 

There is absolutely no reason why a warning label does no exist on this product and the average reasonable person has no way of knowing this unless they are a chemist or happens to come across a post like this. 

Do you use API water conditioner or do you use something like prime?

Bump:


Kubla said:


> You have to show damages for a lawsuit. I doubt very many lawyers will jump on for their percentage of a few lost neon tetras.


What about if 68,000 people lost 1 neon tetra. Thats $170,000 worth of neon tetras. What about punitive damages, what about their reputation? False advertisement, willful negligence and endangerment of a minnow :grin2:. LOL 


I don't know how these lawyers do it but 

I know that a women sued a supermarket because her own kids injured her and the supermarket failed to supervise. How about just doing the right thing? 


Another person was driving an RV and decided to turn on cruise control while the jumped in the back and would make a grilled cheese sandwich. The RV crashes and she sued the manufacturer and won. I don't know how but she did. 

Would a reasonable person think that a cruise control in a RV is the same as a self-driving car? 

Would a reasonable person think that putting tap water conditioner as directed on the bottle to remove the chemical listed on the bottle would create a more toxic ammonia in the aquarium that will kill the fish faster then the chlorinates alone? 

This would be a real case for a class action I think especially considering how outright silly cases still manage to win. Imagine what happens when a real case of negligence.


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## Fish Em (Jul 3, 2015)

I am sorry, but is this whole post a joke?? Maybe I am a bit slow. I'd really like to know!


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## Straight shooter (Nov 26, 2015)

I've been visiting an alternative doctor for my erectile dysfunction, but I found out the other day he was a fraud. I was going to sue him, and thought I had a pretty good case, but my lawyer said I'd never get it to stand up in court. Teeheehee...

Ah well. I hope you have more luck with your court case.


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## randym (Sep 20, 2015)

The EPA is pressuring utilities to switch to chloramines. Or at least, they are encouraging them to stop using chlorine, and chloramines are the cheapest alternative.

The reason is so-called "disinfection by-products." Chlorine breaks down and produces many byproducts that are toxic and/or carcinogens. Chloramines produce far fewer of these. 

Well, that's the theory, anyway.

My local pet stores have been pretty good about keeping their customers informed. When the local utility switched to chloramines, they stopped selling the old water conditioners, and did tell their customers about the change.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Fish Em, the basic concept is real:
Some dechlorinators will break the chlorine-ammonia bond that makes up chloramines, then lock up the chlorine, but do nothing about the ammonia. 
This can release toxic levels of ammonia into the tank. The level of ammonia depends on several things, so might not be toxic in all cases:
1) If the pH of the water is low, then more of the ammonia will be in the less toxic form of ammonium (NH4+). 
2) If there is not very much chloramine in the tap water. 
3) If it is a small water change or top off. 
4) If you are using some other product that does lock up the ammonia.
5) If your fish are more sensitive to it- wild caught, or fry, or certain species then even the lower levels can cause problems. 

The ammonia is removed from the water by plants and nitrifying bacteria. If the amount of ammonia is small then you might never notice an ammonia spike, it is removed before it causes problems. 

IME the dechlors that really are good for chloramine, that is, they lock up the ammonia, say so on the label. 
The ones that are produced by good companies but do not lock up ammonia, say so on the label. 
The ones in this discussion that do not lock up ammonia may say 'Chloramine' on the label, but are then mute about the ammonia. Not even the warning that you might need an ammonia remover in addition to the dechlor. In general these are the ones sold in chain stores. I would like to refresh my memory about some of these, I cannot see the whole label on line. They all include 'chloramine' on the front of the label. 

Tetra Aqua Safe- breaks the chlorine-ammonia bond, but depends on nitrifying bacteria to lock up the ammonia. (Says so in the Q&A part of the site, but how many people really look there, or know to look at that?- What is on the label?)
Top Fin- says nothing about ammonia on the front.
Wardley (Hartz) Pond Conditioner- Says nothing about ammonia on the front. 
Drs Foster and Smith sell chlorine remover and ammonia remover in separate bottles. The chlorine remover also lists chloramine, but says nothing on the front about ammonia. Does anyone have a bottle? What does it say about ammonia?
API Stress Coat does not say anything about ammonia.

Kordon Nov Aqua states on the label it does not remove ammonia, and suggests another product if ammonia is present. 

API Ammo Lok handles all 3- Chlorine, Chloramine, Ammonia. 
Clear Pond Chloramine Buster handles all 3- Chlorine, chloramine, ammonia. 
Seachem Prime and Safe handle all 3- Chlorine, chloramine, ammonia. 
Kordon Amquel and Amquel Plus handle all 3- Chlorine, chloramine, ammonia.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

Diana said:


> *Tetra Aqua Safe*- breaks the chlorine-ammonia bond, but depends on nitrifying bacteria to lock up the ammonia. (Says so in the Q&A part of the site, but how many people really look there, or know to look at that?- What is on the label?)
> *Top Fin*- says nothing about ammonia on the front.
> Wardley (Hartz) Pond Conditioner- Says nothing about ammonia on the front.
> *Drs Foster and Smith* sell chlorine remover and ammonia remover in separate bottles. The chlorine remover also lists chloramine, but says nothing on the front about ammonia. Does anyone have a bottle? What does it say about ammonia?
> ...


This is the best bit of information I have read on this site in a long time and should definitely be stickied somewhere in the noobie section and probably in all subforums dedicated to tank start ups or chemicals.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

I would like input from someone with a bottle of each item in front of them. Read the label, just like a person would do (hopefully) in a store. 

While I have had most of these in the house at some time over the years, I do not remember all the labels, and would like some confirmation about how each company addresses the ammonia part of chloramine. What does it say on the back of the label?


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## Zhylis (Nov 25, 2015)

Diana said:


> I would like input from someone with a bottle of each item in front of them. Read the label, just like a person would do (hopefully) in a store.


Well, I have some older bottles of dechlor in the house. Looks like Tetra AquaSafe and TopFin WC. I have Seachem Safe but not in the original container. Neither of them directly or indirectly address the ammonia issue except for Seachem. Top Fin sort of alludes to it by mentioning use with a bacterial starter/supplement. 










The back of the TopFin WC:


> -Reduces harmful Chlorine, Chloramine and heavy metals
> -Replenishes necessary electrolytes to reduce stress
> -Measuring cap included
> 
> ...


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## redranger (Dec 13, 2015)

I did a massive water change after I purchase some new fish from the store and a few turned up dead. 

I notice a few bubbles on top and did not know if perhaps one of hose I use for water change came in contact with some kind of chemical that did not rinse off enough. 

I did another water change a few hours later. 

I looked at the seachem badge and out of the 4 stages it was on TOXIC!!!! 
1. Safe
2. Alert
3. Alarm. 
4. TOXIC., 










Let me say that again, just by doing an aggressive water change my aquarium ammonia levels went from safe to TOXIC!!!!!!!!!!!!

So in other words, if I had used API standard water conditioner, all my fish would be dead!!!

Lucky I used prime and the additives converted the ammonia into a nontoxic form. If its true that this safe form of ammonia is only temporary, I hope my biological filtration can convert it before it turn toxic. 

Just wanted to let you know how dangerous that normal water condition is when you are doing large water changes with chloramines in the tap water supply.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

When you do an "aggressive" water change I hope you do it quickly, dry aquarium sides = dead bacteria.


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## Straight shooter (Nov 26, 2015)

Nitrifying bacteria even survive in potting soil, so not underwater. The importance is oxygenation and moisture.. they don't need to be completely underwater to survive, so long as there is significant moisture.


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