# large gravel: What can I grow in it?



## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

With potted plants, my experience is they don't grow very fast. I would imagine limiting root growth in any fashion, like putting substrate in bag would do the same, to what extent would depend on the size of the bag and how much the plant could feasably grown.

My hypothesis would be that it would be the same as any regular plant. You put a pine tree seed in tiny pot and it will grow until it has no room for roots, rather than growing 50 ft tall. 

Depending, it could be advantagous to you if you don't want to trim, not matter if the plant have more room for roots than it will use, or be frustrating if you do want both growth and trimming. 

But it should work fine in a pot, seems like bags of better substrate would work well too from what i could feasibly see.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

You'd have to put the pots in the substrate more than just 1/2". The roots need about 2" of substrate. So even if the pots included 2" of substrate, I think it would all fall over if only 1/2" in.

How large is your tank? Why not get substrate for plants or use the soil method which is — excuse the pun — dirt cheap!


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

talontsiawd said:


> With potted plants, my experience is they don't grow very fast. I would imagine limiting root growth in any fashion, like putting substrate in bag would do the same, to what extent would depend on the size of the bag and how much the plant could feasably grown.


One of my reason for wanting to use a bag is that it would allow the roots to extend beyond the "pot". The roots wouldn't be in all that great of a substrate at that point, but it would be better than the confinement of a pot.

Also, I figure for small creeping plants, the bag(s) would be as wide as the area the plant grew in, and as deep as the bottom of the aquarium. In this case, the bag really would not be limiting the available plant substrate anymore than if I had just dumped a plant substrate in the whole aquarium in the first place.


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

Complexity said:


> You'd have to put the pots in the substrate more than just 1/2". The roots need about 2" of substrate. So even if the pots included 2" of substrate, I think it would all fall over if only 1/2" in.


I would cover the bag with 1/2" of gravel. The bag itself would fill the area below the gravel to the bottom of the tank, which would be 2+ inches.



Complexity said:


> How large is your tank? Why not get substrate for plants or use the soil method which is — excuse the pun — dirt cheap!


I have a 46g. At this point I'm not quite ready to replace the substrate for a few reasons:


We've already replaced it once (and the tank is only 3 months old). The first time was shortly after we bought it when we realized the fake blue gravel was a really bad color choice. Now we have natural pebbles, which look nice. I really don't want to change it again.
I'm still a beginner here. I'd like to at least get some plants growing well first before trying to setup the ultimate plant tank (which frankly I'll probably never have the real desire to do).
I'd like to really understand my options well (through experience and reading forums like this one), before putting much more work and money into this. I've already made enough poor choices as a result of lacking experience (like the $90 hood I'm working on replacing because it is only 25 watts).
thanks,

Chris


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Ouch on the hood!  Good thing you're returning it.

I can completely appreciate where you're coming from. Just one thing to remember as you're trying out the idea of growing plants. What you are considering doing is much more difficult and will have a much higher chance of a poorer outcome than what most people deal with on their planted tanks. So if the plants don't do well, it may not be because you can't grow plants, but because the plants are not being given the environment that they truly need.

That's not to say your idea can't work, but to please not judge the experience of having a planted tank based on trying to grow plants in pots.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

It will cost very little to use a mineralized topsoil substrate capped with pool filter sand, or even blasting grit, for a black color. It does take some work to make the mineralized topsoil, but it almost always take work to avoid spending money. And, the advantage is that many people have had spectacular success with mineralized topsoil as a substrate. Another advantage is that you won't have to figure out a fertilizing routine for several weeks, if not many months. It is almost the perfect DIY project, where substrates are involved. (See the first thread in this forum)


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

Complexity said:


> Ouch on the hood!  Good thing you're returning it.


Not returning. Replacing. It's way to late to return it. :icon_cry:



Complexity said:


> I can completely appreciate where you're coming from. Just one thing to remember as you're trying out the idea of growing plants. What you are considering doing is much more difficult and will have a much higher chance of a poorer outcome than what most people deal with on their planted tanks. So if the plants don't do well, it may not be because you can't grow plants, but because the plants are not being given the environment that they truly need.
> 
> That's not to say your idea can't work, but to please not judge the experience of having a planted tank based on trying to grow plants in pots.


Point taken. I'm am reconsidering my approach now. Just need to figure out which substrate to buy first.


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

Hoppy said:


> It will cost very little to use a mineralized topsoil substrate capped with pool filter sand, or even blasting grit, for a black color. It does take some work to make the mineralized topsoil, but it almost always take work to avoid spending money. And, the advantage is that many people have had spectacular success with mineralized topsoil as a substrate. Another advantage is that you won't have to figure out a fertilizing routine for several weeks, if not many months. It is almost the perfect DIY project, where substrates are involved. (See the first thread in this forum)


In terms of replacing my existing gravel, it's probably the work (and the disruption to the aquarium) that bothers me more than the cost, but both are a factor.

However, if I am going to put the effort in to replace the substrate, I'd rather just pay for something that works and is simple rather than a DIY approach. Plus I don't like the idea of layering. Seems too prone getting messed up over time as you clean and move/add/replace plants.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

You sound so much like me. I started out thinking no way would I use live plants. Now, I have one high tech tank and am in the process of setting up another! :icon_lol:

There are quite a few substrates for plants on the market. Everyone has their favorites. I use Eco-Complete because it's the blackest of all the plant substrates. And it works. Plus, it's the only substrate that does not require rinsing which for me is a major selling point (my tank required 9 bags; that's a lot of rinsing!).

Take a look through the substrate forum, and if you have any questions, just ask. I thin the main thing is to become familiar with what choices you have available so you can pick whichever one you like best. Just about any plant substrate will work so you really can't go wrong. I would suggest staying away from sand substrates.

Other than Eco-Complete, I think Flourite may be the most commonly used. And then there's the ADA brand. I don't know them all so check around.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

cjp999 said:


> However, if I am going to put the effort in to replace the substrate, I'd rather just pay for something that works...


This is very smart. I've seen people get the usual gravel and then attempt to use it for plants. Then they have a real mess on their hands because they're not only disturbing the tank and fish, but the plants, too, which are usually dying since the gravel did not work.

You can have a very nice planted tank with a 46g tank. Just take it slow as you're already doing.


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

what type and size filter are you using? if you are worried about the eco system and bacteria so your tank doesn't go into a cycle again.. you can avoid a full cycle. there may be a mini cycle.. but nothing major. you can take your filter media if using a hob and place it in a bucket of existing tank water as to not kill the bacteria. take a nylon stocking and place some of the existing substrate in it like a little tube. tie it up and place it in the tank. DO NOT wash the gravel.. place it in a bucket of existing tank water too. make sure you rinse the nylon stocking first.

this was what I did when I set up my 75 gal from my 29 gal. worked fine.


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

Torpedobarb said:


> what type and size filter are you using? if you are worried about the eco system and bacteria so your tank doesn't go into a cycle again.. you can avoid a full cycle. there may be a mini cycle.. but nothing major. you can take your filter media if using a hob and place it in a bucket of existing tank water as to not kill the bacteria. take a nylon stocking and place some of the existing substrate in it like a little tube. tie it up and place it in the tank. DO NOT wash the gravel.. place it in a bucket of existing tank water too. make sure you rinse the nylon stocking first.
> 
> this was what I did when I set up my 75 gal from my 29 gal. worked fine.


My filter is a Fluval 305 (I believe rated for 70gal). Cycling wasn't really a concern, just the effort of removing the old gravel and decor and then getting it all set up again with the new substrate. I have a few options for reducing the bio-load after the switch: 10g and 6g already cycled, and a Wisper 10i filter I could always put in a 5g bucket with some of the old gravel. Plus there are only 6 fish and 5 shrimp to deal with in the 46g right now (10g is a bit crowded with some new fish in quarantine).


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

How long have you been keeping fish and tanks, cjp999? I get the impression you have most of the bases covered. It's just the laborious task of switching the substrate that you're not looking forward to doing. Is that about right?


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

Complexity said:


> How long have you been keeping fish and tanks, cjp999? I get the impression you have most of the bases covered. It's just the laborious task of switching the substrate that you're not looking forward to doing. Is that about right?


Yes, sort of, to your last question. I also need to upgrade the lighting, so now I'm debating if I should just hold back for a while and grow some simpler low light stuff that does not need a substrate. There's also a pH isue (see next reply).

As for how long I've been keeping fish; 3 months, 3 years, or 30 years, depending on how you look at it. When I was a teenager I had a 55 gal for a few years. Had no idea what I was doing, yet it all seemed so simple, and I don't recall having many complications. However, all I ever grew was anarchis(sp?), which I recall not only had a tendency to grow fast, but also drop tons of petals at the base.

About 3 year ago my then 7 year old got a 5 gal, so I've been helping her with that. I didn't know what I was doing with it either, and this time it showed. Had no idea about the need to cycle or at least monthly water changes. Lost a number of fish along the way, and always had brown algae (diatoms?).

About 3 months ago we got a 46 gal, and finally I'm taking the time to read up and do things right, although in some cases a bit late (witness the gravel and lighting misteps, and an ich outbreak that would have been largly prevented with a quarantine tank).

Chris


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

I should also mention that my pH is around 8.0, which I now realize is not so good for plants. Hardness is also high, I think 18 based on testing done when I had a new water softener installed. This is due to well water. I use water that doesn't go through the softener, as recommened by the lfs.

So, this sounds like a reason to use ADA AS, as I understand it lowers both the pH and hardness of the water. I just want to make sure levels stay ok for my existing fish:

1 Bristlenose Pleco
1 Cardinal Tetra (lone survivor of ich outbreak)
1 Silvertip Tetra (lone fish remaining from 5gal)
3 Mollies
5 ghost shrimp
1 Angel
2 Guppies
3 Indian Glassfish
I think they are Ok with lower pH and soft water. I'm just not sure how low they'll tolerate, and how low ADA AS will bring drop the pH and hardness (and for how long it will do this).

Chris


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## Preeths (Jan 29, 2008)

Why dont you make it into a moss only tank? Tie the moss to large pebbles and let it grow. You dont have to change the lighting and substrate either.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If you go with ADA AquaSoil, you're likely to need to house all your fish elsewhere for a month or so. This substrate leeches massive amounts of ammonia into the water column for weeks. 

Even starting with a cycled XP2 and lots of tank mulm under the substrate, it's been 3 weeks since I set up my 29gal with ADA AS and the ammonia just now is low enough for me to test with a few shrimp.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

cjp999 said:


> About 3 months ago we got a 46 gal, and finally I'm taking the time to read up and do things right, although in some cases a bit late (witness the gravel and lighting misteps, and an ich outbreak that would have been largly prevented with a quarantine tank).


Actually, you're not late at all. You're right on time. It's experiences like that that helps us to dig further into learning how to take care of fish responsibility. I cannot even begin to tell you the number of fish I killed in the process of learning.



cjp999 said:


> I should also mention that my pH is around 8.0, which I now realize is not so good for plants.


My pH is also 8.0. Check out my journal for the plants I can grow. I just moved my tank so only new plants are in right now, but the pictures I took on 10-25 are what I grew with a pH of 8.0 and water hard as a rock.

Here's a link to the 10-25 pics. My sig has a link to my new pics after the move.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/t...-journal-75g-new-pics-11-a-21.html#post711418

I think you can grow a whole lot of plants in pH 8.0 water. :smile:


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

Complexity said:


> My pH is also 8.0. Check out my journal for the plants I can grow. I just moved my tank so only new plants are in right now, but the pictures I took on 10-25 are what I grew with a pH of 8.0 and water hard as a rock.
> 
> Here's a link to the 10-25 pics. My sig has a link to my new pics after the move.
> 
> ...


Wow! Very nice! I've seen lots of pictures of lush tanks, but never with some many colors and variety of shapes and leaf textures.

Does your pH and hardness affect how you choose your plants, or do you find most grow without a problem, and you just avoid the ones you've had a bad experience with?

Is this a CO2 injected tank? If so, are your 8.0 reading before are after adding CO2

thanks,

Chris


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I don't really pay attention to the pH recommendations. If I like it, I plant it. If it grows, I enjoy it. If not, I don't replace it again. Simple.

I do avoid very expensive plants that are known for being highly sensitive and require a low pH. That's pushing it too far (or I should say that I'm not willing to risk the money).

Yes, I have injected CO2. I honestly think that is one of the major keys to being successful. It grows the plants for you.

My pH of 8.0 is before the CO2. I push the pH down to about a 6.9 or 7.0 pH. However, keep in mind that the lowered pH does not change the total dissolved solids (TDS) in the water. So it's not the same as having truly soft water. It's simply CO2 induced.

I also have 21 cardinal tetras in the tank which are supposed to be unable to do well in pH 8.0. I had them before I started injecting CO2.

The pH ratings are a good, general indication of a plant's needs, but that does not mean you can't grow it if your pH is out of the range. Most plants acclimate to different pHs pretty easily.


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

Complexity said:


> My pH of 8.0 is before the CO2. I push the pH down to about a 6.9 or 7.0 pH. However, keep in mind that the lowered pH does not change the total dissolved solids (TDS) in the water. So it's not the same as having truly soft water. It's simply CO2 induced.


I'm not too clear on your point here. I understand the water is still hard after lowering the pH with CO2. Are you saying that plants and fish that prefer a pH lower than 8.0 don't reap the benefits when the pH is lowered by CO2, or are you just saying that plants and fish that like soft water won't see a hardness difference with the CO2.

thanks again,

Chris


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

It's my understanding that the lowered pH created by CO2 does not affect the fish. This is what was explained to me when I worried about the sudden pH change with 50% water changes.


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

Complexity said:


> It's my understanding that the lowered pH created by CO2 does not affect the fish. This is what was explained to me when I worried about the sudden pH change with 50% water changes.


Hmm. If if doesn't affect the fish, then how would the lower pH help the plants, or doesn't it?

I have the opposite problem. Water out of the tap is very hard and heavily carbonated. Starts off with a pH of 6.8-7.0. A day later it is 8.0-8.2. If for some reason I'm doing frequent (almost daily) water changes, I usually keep a couple of 5g buckets full. After removing water with the python, I then add water from the buckets filled the previous day, top off the tank using the python, and then refill the buckets using the python. At least this way I'm not lugging buckets of water around.

For less frequent changes, I just try to change 30% or less, and usually trickle the water in over about an hour. This helps to reduce water temp fluctuations too.

Chris


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

pH is a water parameter that can be affected by many other parameters. In a planted tank, the parameters that we tend to be most concerned with are hardness (measured by kH and gH) and CO2. 

Many dissolved gasses such as CO2 will drive down pH, and it is possible to get an approximate CO2 saturation level by measuring the drop in a tank's pH once you start injecting the CO2. So this is why some people track their pH and use pH regulators hooked up to their pressurized CO2 setups.

However, pH changes related to kH and gH levels are the water parameters that impact fish more dramatically than those from dissolved gasses. As long as the parameters aren't going to extremes (it IS possible to kill livestock with CO2 poisoning, for example) the pH changes that result just from CO2 levels don't seem to impact fish much if at all. The CO2 is not impacting the levels of the dissolved solids in the water (kH or gH).

The difference in pH from your tap versus aged water is most likely from dissolved gasses in your tap water. As those gasses escape from your water, the pH goes back up.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Thanks, LL, for helping explain that. I know it, but not well enough to explain it well.

cjp999, the same goes for plants. CO2 induced lowered pH does not create soft water or an environment that's now better for plants that prefer a lower pH.

However, having said that... Unless you find a plant that really wants a 5 or 6 pH, then don't sweat it. I have found just about every plant grows in my water.

As LL said, the pH can be helpful in determining the amount of CO2 being injected, but that's all it's good for. Your water is your water, CO2 injected or not. That does not change. And even better, your water should be able to house all kinds of fish, inverts and plants. Just stay away from anything that is known to require a low pH, soft water AND is known to be very sensitive. Otherwise, your water will do great just as it is.


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

Thanks for all the help in this thread and others. I really appreciate it. I've pretty much settled on the ADA Aquasoil. I like what I've read about it so far. Shipping from Aquaforest is pretty cheap since I'm only about 75 miles away. I just need to decide on color(s). An lfs had a mixed substrate I like that I'm going to have a look at again tomorrow. I think it's a mix of different flourites and sand, so I may do something similar, but with Aquasoil.

Just ordered my new T5HO light strip today from Big Al's. Hopefully it will fit my existing hood (I'm pretty sure it will). Otherwise I guess I'll be ordering a new glass hood too. Big Al's also has Excel for $23 per 2 liter. Can't beat that, especially with free shipping. Should last me more than a year.

thanks again,

Chris


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