# Is it my pH or something else?



## dukydaf (Dec 27, 2004)

Hmm, making decisions on pH alone is like saying you have enough food because your fridge is heavy. This being said, based on your description I think it is something in your tap. Usually with a high pH comes high KH, but I find it odd that your is 3, can you please double check ? 

The plants you list should not react that bad with the changes in pH and KH. I had some of the plants in high and low pH and KH with similar growth. But the CRS can be very sensitive, and are reported to stop breading when the KH is high or some other (TDS) parameter is not to their liking. I think your new water provider raises the pH with some unknown X substance, which can be problematic to identify and remove. I advise against lowering your pH using commercial mystery solutions , hard to maintain and problematic with CRS. Peat, leaves, wood can be used but hard to control and only lower the pH not substance X.

What specific problems are you seeing in the Crypts or in H. zoestrifolia ?

My suggestion for low-tech, infrequent wc, CRS tank would be to buy a RO system or buy RO water. From there add minerals to parameters needed for CRS.


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## beetea (Jan 27, 2012)

dukydaf said:


> Hmm, making decisions on pH alone is like saying you have enough food because your fridge is heavy.


Thanks for the feedback. Yea, I agree. I've been monitoring the tank quite closely for the last 4 months but can't see a problem elsewhere.



> This being said, based on your description I think it is something in your tap. Usually with a high pH comes high KH, but I find it odd that your is 3, can you please double check ?


I've checked this very often for the last 4 months (measurements several times a week) and the readings have been quite consistent at 2-3 KH. It actually aligns with the data that the local water district gave me so I'm fairly confident this is accurate.

The most recent update to their data suggest my tap water should be:

1. pH 7.9
2. TDS 28 ppm
3. CaCO3 (KH, right?) 8.3 ppm



> What specific problems are you seeing in the Crypts or in H. zoestrifolia ?


Crypts look healthy but are really low growing (which is odd since I thought the lower light would make them a bitt taller) and growth rate of new leaves are lower than what I've experienced in the past. I'm not *too* concerned with them since they're fairly hardy.

The H. zosterifolia is not really growing at all. It has remained roughly the same size since I added it 6 weeks ago and I see some browning of its leaves. Similar issue with the Hydrocotyle but less browning.



> My suggestion for low-tech, infrequent wc, CRS tank would be to buy a RO system or buy RO water. From there add minerals to parameters needed for CRS.


I do 10-20% WCs about once every 2-3 weeks. 

Before I go down the RO route, should I also buy a new kit and test my GH to rule that out?


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## BigXor (Dec 15, 2014)

Except for Orange Eye Blue Tigers, caridina shrimp live in soft water. Typical:
GH=5
KH=0-1
pH=5.5-6.5
TDS= max ~130ppm


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## essabee (Oct 7, 2006)

If your plants are not growing at the rate you were used to, then obviously there is limiting factor, - which has to be other than the lights, CO2, your feeding and dosing schedules - therefore the water and the easiest measurable change being the ph you suspect that.

The change in the ph would have affected the CRS more but hardly would have affected your plants. I would suspect that the nutrients you used to dose were well complemented by the water supply you used to have and now are mis-matched to your new water supply.


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## dukydaf (Dec 27, 2004)

beetea said:


> 3. CaCO3 (KH, right?) 8.3 ppm


Well 1 KH German degree = 17.848 mg/L CaCO3. But this is not to say that if you have 3 KH you have ~51 ppm CaCO3 in your aquarium. For example people also add Na2CO3 to raise the KH. The important part is the CO3. But the KH test can be somewhat inaccurate. You can read more on this topic (goes into too much detail)
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/942178-co2-ph-dkh-question.html



beetea said:


> Before I go down the RO route, should I also buy a new kit and test my GH to rule that out?


It is rather cheap, compared to a RO system and you might need it after you get the RO to check if you added the right amount of remineralizing salts.

I also think there is something else impacting the plant growth. Maybe up the dosage.


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## Oso Polar (Apr 22, 2015)

beetea said:


> The most recent update to their data suggest my tap water should be:
> 1. pH 7.9
> 2. TDS 28 ppm
> 3. CaCO3 (KH, right?) 8.3 ppm


These parameters suggest that you have *very, very soft* water. Most probably this water naturally has also very low pH and to avoid damage to pipes pH is artificially increased at water processing facility by adding some chemicals to the water - that's why you are getting 7.9. Such low water hardness can be a problem for both plants and shrimp (not enough Ca and Mg), you'll need a GH booster. 

I'd buy a TDS meter and a fresh GH test and check to be sure.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

With the amount of light you have I doubt that Excel will be enough to keep the plants supplied with carbon. For sure, occasional regular dosages of Excel won't be enough. You could try increasing the Excel dosage to 2 ml per 10 gallons, dosed daily, but even that is not enough for the amount of light you have. I think it is time to save up for a pressurized CO2 system, or use only one of those light fixtures.


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## beetea (Jan 27, 2012)

Oso Polar said:


> These parameters suggest that you have *very, very soft* water. Most probably this water naturally has also very low pH and to avoid damage to pipes pH is artificially increased at water processing facility by adding some chemicals to the water - that's why you are getting 7.9. Such low water hardness can be a problem for both plants and shrimp (not enough Ca and Mg), you'll need a GH booster.
> 
> I'd buy a TDS meter and a fresh GH test and check to be sure.


Thanks for the explanation of why my water is so soft while being so high for pH. This had be confusing me for a while. Do you know what is typically added at the treatment plant to increase the pH? Any idea if it could potentially have a negative impact on fish, shrimp, and plants?

I will definitely follow your advice and test my TDS.

Bump: Oh hey, I just read more into the report from my water source and answered my question:



> At the end of the disinfection process,
> sodium hydroxide (NaOH) is added to the water at a
> dose of 3 to 5 ppm to raise the pH of the water to
> approximately 8.0 pH units. The addition of NaOH
> ...


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## essabee (Oct 7, 2006)

"At the end of the disinfection process, sodium hydroxide (NaOH) is added to the water at a dose of 3 to 5 ppm" that could mean an equivalent to having 4.25 to 7 ppm common salt in the water. That salinity could affect some plants.


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## beetea (Jan 27, 2012)

essabee said:


> that could mean an equivalent to having 4.25 to 7 ppm common salt in the water. That salinity could affect some plants.


I was just wondering about that today. If I understand correctly, the NaOH added to the water results in Na+ ions in the water. The Na+ ions would disrupt the Potassium uptake of plants leading to potassium deficiency. This was one of the articles I read: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC139373/.

But if this were the case, my tap water would be hurting all my plants, aquatic or terrestrial, right? Hmm...


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## beetea (Jan 27, 2012)

Got the GH kit and TDS meter today and here are the measurements:

GH is 5, TDS 196 ppm

I also got home last night to see one pregnant female, so perhaps I just haven't been patient enough with the shrimp. The stargrass (H. zosterifolia) is looking horrible, though. Lots of browning since last week. I'm pretty sure every leaf has at least some brown spots... potassium, phosphate, some-other-nutrient deficiency?


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## HDBenson (Jan 26, 2015)

With a GH of 5(89ppm dGH), there are at least minimal amounts of Ca and Mg in your tap. I suspect it is the small in infrequent WCs that MAY be the culprit in both cases. Is the 196 ppm TDS tap, unchanged tank or, after WC tank water?


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## beetea (Jan 27, 2012)

The 196 TDS is not tap. I tested the tap to be much lower. I think it was in the 20-30 range.


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## Daisy Mae (Jun 21, 2015)

I am wondering why the TDS is so high, and suspect a couple of things-

Something in aquarium is leaching minerals. 
Small and infrequent WC now result in mineral/salt build up because of ongoing evaporation. 

My tap water tends to be TDS 25 or less, and with weekly 25-50% WC in several tanks, and _using remineralizer_ (less than 50% recommended for shrimp), the highest that the TDS ever gets is in the 120s. Occasionally 140 if I go just over a week for WC. 

The plants are healthy with this, including H. tripartita, Crypt becketii petchii, and another unknown crypt (all of which happen to be in various tanks, with more remineralizer, TDS 180-220). I'm just mentioning the plants that you stated were having trouble. 

I am betting on an additive in the water which is accumulating due to the small WCs coupled with evaporation through time. 

Try increasing volume of WC, and increase frequency to at least every two weeks, every week if not too prohibitive time and effort wise.


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## beetea (Jan 27, 2012)

I dose potassium nitrate, monopotassium phosphate, and Seachem Equilibrium according to this article: How to Setup a Low-tech Planted Tank: A Guide for Planted Aquariums | Welcome to Sudeep Mandal's spot on the net

I actually use a 40-gallon dose rather than a 60-gallon dose roughly once a week skipping a week here and there. I've been doing 10-20% WCs about once every 2 weeks. 

Googling around, it appears TDS measures:



> ... inorganic salts (principally calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium, bicarbonates, chlorides, and sulfates)


Quite possibly my dosing is too frequent since it appears the plants cannot absorb quickly enough?


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## HDBenson (Jan 26, 2015)

I thinks it's more along the lines of what @Daisy Mae and I said.. small infrequent WCs. Try bumping them up. Do 1-2 this week at 30%. Then level out at 40% weekly.


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## beetea (Jan 27, 2012)

Thanks @HDBenson and @Daisy Mae

I'm going to start doing larger, more frequent WCs to keep the TDS a little lower. I did a 30% WC last night and measured the TDS *before* the WC to be at 234 :surprise: I measured again this morning and it's at 193 now.

The H. zosterifolia looks quite horrible right now. It's brown everywhere and melting in some parts. It might be a lost cause. The Hydrocotyle looks OK. The older leaves melted away but it has a good amount of new growth.

I'll try to get a pic uploaded to better diagnose the problems I'm having.


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## beetea (Jan 27, 2012)

Update: basically things are looking a lot better but not before I had a small bout with thread algae (Spirogyra). And to answer the question in the title: *no, it was not my pH * Thanks for all the feedback!

Not long after the original post, I noticed that the Java fern had a fairly large die-off (browning of leaves but rhizomes remained intact). I don't know what caused this, but perhaps the water chemistry got to a point where the ferns decided it needed to adjust. The die-off also coincided to when the Spirogyra started to spiral (heh) out of control.

I started doing more water changes as suggested and kept an eye on my TDS. I also upped the dosing of Excel as many posts had suggested it would help control the thread algae. I never actually witnessed the Excel having any effect on the thread algae (I would pour the entire doses directly in clumps of Spirogyra) but at the very least, I figured it would give the plants a boost. I also removed as much dead plant matter as possible during water changes. I also added a small Koralia to increase water flow.

Slowly, things started looking better. The TDS dropped to the 120s where it's been for the last few weeks. The H. zosterifolia (and all plants, really) are looking better and baby CRS are everywhere.

My take-aways from this:

1. Don't ignore TDS. Measure it like you would pH, KH, GH, etc. to ensure the water chemistry is stable. Increased TDS may not necessarily be deadly, but may cause your plants to adapt to the new chemistry which may lead to a large die-off of leaves to make room for new ones.
2. Spirogyra thrives in conditions where plants thrive and Excel does not directly kill it. It often appears after a spike of N, like when a plants/leaves are dying. The best way to get rid of it is to cleanup dead plant matter and to physically remove large clumps of it and leaves to which it is attached.
3. After years of maintaining a sub-7 pH for my CRS, this new tank is at 7.4-7.6 and the CRS seem to be doing just as well. Water changes and flow seem to affect their happiness more than anything else. I used to keep CRS in nano tanks where large water changes were easier and the filters provided enough flow. I saw a noticeable change in activity and breeding when I increased water changes and added the Koralia in this larger tank.


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