# i need a substrate...



## latchdan (Sep 7, 2007)

What type of carpet? Ive used sts and glosso holds fine hc or Monte Carlo prolly wouldnt. Its cheap 5 bucks filled my 40b. Its a little lighter un weight then flourite.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Many use what I believe is called Black Diamond Blasting media from Tractor Supply.
You can spread some Osmocote+ under it and/or get the capsules of it from a few people on here. Needs to be used only according to the directions so sparingly if just spread
under the sub before putting it in there.


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## delgado4604 (Dec 28, 2014)

latchdan said:


> What type of carpet? Ive used sts and glosso holds fine hc or Monte Carlo prolly wouldnt. Its cheap 5 bucks filled my 40b. Its a little lighter un weight then flourite.



I think id like a carpet of HC

Bump:


latchdan said:


> What type of carpet? Ive used sts and glosso holds fine hc or Monte Carlo prolly wouldnt. Its cheap 5 bucks filled my 40b. Its a little lighter un weight then flourite.





Raymond S. said:


> Many use what I believe is called Black Diamond Blasting media from Tractor Supply.
> You can spread some Osmocote+ under it and/or get the capsules of it from a few people on here. Needs to be used only according to the directions so sparingly if just spread
> under the sub before putting it in there.


Ill get the osmocote. And my concern with sand is i used to have play sand and it wouldnt allow anything thrpugh ot so everything would clump on the surface it was gross and id imagine terrible for plants to root. Im trying to find out if that black diamond sand will compact like that. As for the osmocote this might sound like a dumb question but if its all the way at the bottom how do plants utilize its nutrients through the sand...


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

It is in the form of slow release beads.
I would wait till others who have used the Blasting "sand" answer this thread.
They seem to have a preference for a certain size of grain for it. It comes in different
sizes of grains.
There is a tank "style" that is called a "Walstad" tank which is totally different from most tanks, but the main reason that I mention this is that the tank uses dirt as a sub,
but the top for the sub...they suggest you not use sand as it won't allow the water through it to contact with the dirt. The want circulation in the sub and suggest a fine gravel, yet not so fine as sand to be used for the cap.
The grain size that people prefer for that Blasting sand in more coarse than sand.
How much so is what I don't know. But not pieces as large as Fluorite I'm fairly sure.


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## delgado4604 (Dec 28, 2014)

Raymond S. said:


> It is in the form of slow release beads.
> I would wait till others who have used the Blasting "sand" answer this thread.
> They seem to have a preference for a certain size of grain for it. It comes in different
> sizes of grains.
> ...


Well i just found out the place you buy the black diamond from is too far from me so id need to order online making it not worth the money. I currently have pool filter sand which gives a beach look and the grain size is bigger then sand water flows through it good juat not sure how HC would hang on in it. So now im wondering am i better off buying say black sand from a petco or keeping my pfs and adding osmocote to it since i want carpet i prob wont notice that its sand? Im planting to where theres no floor visible


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

I have no experience/w growing that at all so someone who does would give a better answer than my guessing at it.


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

I haven't been able to find it on there website or catalog, but I've seen some bags of Black Diamond blasting sand the last time I was in my local Harbor Freight. Since you have several around Miami it might be worth a few phone calls.


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## essabee (Oct 7, 2006)

A sprinkling of gypsum and calcium-phosphate on the floor of the tank, spread an inch of laterite layer on top of it, and then cap that with pool sand - you will have a substrate which will support any plant you care to grow.


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## delgado4604 (Dec 28, 2014)

essabee said:


> A sprinkling of gypsum and calcium-phosphate on the floor of the tank, spread an inch of laterite layer on top of it, and then cap that with pool sand - you will have a substrate which will support any plant you care to grow.



that actually sounds very intereting im kind of leaning towards this then the osmocote. what is the gypsum and calcium phosphate for? also arnt i missing other nutrients like say my macros since laterite is a prime source of iron but that about it? correct me if im wrong dont know much on this topic. i do plan on keeping my pool filter sand unfortunately its already been established and running for over a year in my aquarium so its going to be a huge pain in the @$$ to get a layer of something under


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## essabee (Oct 7, 2006)

Laterite, especially nodular laterite, is rich in minerals especially iron but have very poor content of Ca, S, & P. Iron exist in both ferrous and ferric states but the ferric iron is unavailable to plants. Iron is the most difficult of all the fertilisers to deliver through the water column - we use costly chelated ferrous iron fertilisers but usually most of it is converted into ferric state before being utilised by the plants.

Iron is present in the unavailable ferric state in laterite and it only becomes available to plants after being reduced to ferrous state by the action of certain anaerobic bacteria. The ph in lateritic strata tends to stay low this reduces bacterial activity. The Ca added by gypsum and phosphate will help in maintaining a higher ph and also supply the S & P needed by the bacteria which reduces the ferric iron to the soluble ferrous state in which the plants need them.

The rest of the macro and micro nutrients are very easy to deliver to plants through the water column. So I prefer the substrate to be set up as I posted. 

In my tanks; instead of using the granular laterite you all must be using; I use the fine dust that I sieve out from nodular laterite. Nodular laterite is quite easily available in my locality and it is there for the taking in shovelfuls. I mix this dust with gypsum and the phosphate and put a inch thick layer in the bottom of my tanks and cap it with sand.


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## bsherwood (Nov 22, 2007)

I am brand new to the whole "blasting sand' thing.....I have three tanks with blasting sand as substrate
1. shrimp tank 55 gallon. so far so good. shrimp and plants are thriving
2. 4o gallon, I have had some cllouding issues...but that seems to be from some driftwood that had algae on it prio
3. 55 dirt tank....still messing with the co2 with this tank but the blasting sand looks great


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

If I had money, I'd try one tank with ADA Amazonia, and probably do the rest with Flourite Black Sand (not actually sand - just fine-grained baked clay, so it has the high CEC of Flourite). Since dirt becomes pretty barren over time, I probably wouldn't bother capping with anything. In any big, high-tech tanks that I was going to dose regularly, I'd go with blasting sand.

I've done Flourite, Flourite Black Sand, Flourite Black Sand capping dirt, and a small-grain gravel mix. Straight Flourite Black Sand has been my favorite. Never tried blasting sand, but I expect it would look similar to the Flourite Black Sand. Never tried ADA anything. I've been able to carpet in all of them, given high enough light, nutrients, and pressurized CO2. I expect that you could have similar results with anything but the largest-grain substrate.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Sand is packaged in several forms. 
'Play Sand' is a mix of fines and not very coarse particles. This blend of sizes means the pore spaces pretty much get clogged with the fines, so there is very poor water movement through this type of sand. Think of a box of ping-pong balls, with marbles, and dried peas, and flour. (I have no idea why this is 'play' sand- I sure would not want my kids to play in it- they would track it into the house all too easily. Coarser sand could be brushed off before they come in)

'Pool Filter Sand' is almost always sifted so all the particles are the same size, usually 20 or 30 mesh. These same size particles maintain good space between the particles. Think of a box of ping-pong balls, with just a little flour (from shipping and handling). 

'Blasting sand' is also graded for size. For example, one size of the Black Diamond material available at the local Tractor Supply is 20-40 mesh. Think of ping-pong balls and large marbles. 

Many other sizes of particles are available. Check with local masonry stores and similar- rock yards, soils, and so on. Lapis Lustre is one brand name that packages sand in different sizes. 
The one thing they all have in common is this: The particles of sand are so coarse they do not hold onto fertilizers in a way plants can get them. 
Finer materials like clay (a certain soil particle size) and humus (very finely decomposed organic matter) are so fine they can show a charge, like a polar material. Charged fertilizer molecules can cling to these polar materials until the plants remove them. Good sources of this size particles include the montmorillonite clays such as Safe-T-Sorb, Turface and similar things. 
Garden soil (Walstad concept tanks) will have a blend of materials, and often include some clay sized particles. The soil particles (especially the finest ones) are clumped together in a way that makes them act like coarser materials, with the pore space between the particles that will allow good water movement. Think of a popcorn ball- small particles are held together into larger balls. Water flows between the larger balls, and between the popcorn pieces that make up the balls. Yet the finer material retains its polar properties and the right kind of garden soil can be a good material for an aquarium. 

Some commercial substrates are also like this.


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## delgado4604 (Dec 28, 2014)

essabee said:


> Laterite, especially nodular laterite, is rich in minerals especially iron but have very poor content of Ca, S, & P. Iron exist in both ferrous and ferric states but the ferric iron is unavailable to plants. Iron is the most difficult of all the fertilisers to deliver through the water column - we use costly chelated ferrous iron fertilisers but usually most of it is converted into ferric state before being utilised by the plants.
> 
> Iron is present in the unavailable ferric state in laterite and it only becomes available to plants after being reduced to ferrous state by the action of certain anaerobic bacteria. The ph in lateritic strata tends to stay low this reduces bacterial activity. The Ca added by gypsum and phosphate will help in maintaining a higher ph and also supply the S & P needed by the bacteria which reduces the ferric iron to the soluble ferrous state in which the plants need them.
> 
> ...



Well that was informative. I like the idea and laterite is pretty cost effective. My thing is the idea of getting this stuff under over 50lbs of pool filter sand in a tank thats already running... lol this is gonna suck. Do you think it would work to make this powdered mix and put it in empty pill capsules and start digging then in? I know id need A LOT of pills lol i just know this tank wont be dry for me to sprinkle powders in and im not removing all this sand


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## delgado4604 (Dec 28, 2014)

kevmo911 said:


> If I had money, I'd try one tank with ADA Amazonia, and probably do the rest with Flourite Black Sand (not actually sand - just fine-grained baked clay, so it has the high CEC of Flourite). Since dirt becomes pretty barren over time, I probably wouldn't bother capping with anything. In any big, high-tech tanks that I was going to dose regularly, I'd go with blasting sand.
> 
> I've done Flourite, Flourite Black Sand, Flourite Black Sand capping dirt, and a small-grain gravel mix. Straight Flourite Black Sand has been my favorite. Never tried blasting sand, but I expect it would look similar to the Flourite Black Sand. Never tried ADA anything. I've been able to carpet in all of them, given high enough light, nutrients, and pressurized CO2. I expect that you could have similar results with anything but the largest-grain substrate.



Man the cost to fill my 75g with some ada aquasoil i cant even imagine... id love some though even flourite black sand to get enough is expensive maybe one day when i win the lotto ill buy a few bags lol


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## essabee (Oct 7, 2006)

delgado4604 said:


> Well that was informative. I like the idea and laterite is pretty cost effective. My thing is the idea of getting this stuff under over 50lbs of pool filter sand in a tank thats already running... lol this is gonna suck. Do you think it would work to make this powdered mix and put it in empty pill capsules and start digging then in? I know id need A LOT of pills lol i just know this tank wont be dry for me to sprinkle powders in and im not removing all this sand


I don't like the idea of disturbing a settled tank for just having a laterite base. I would rather leave the tank substrate as it is till the tank needs to be redone. 

Disturbing a tanks substrate, especially when the tank has been running for some time, will create several problems to be dealt with. Every tank which has been running for some time has stratified substrate contents both living and inert. The top layer has a lot of inert organic matter and aerobic organism. The inert matter is usually food for microscopic life and once it gets into the water column we have bacteria and algal blooms. Most of the aerobic organism present are beneficial to your tanks health, some are involved in your nitrogen cycle but most form the base of a food chain we often discount but is beneficial to our fishes.

As we dig deeper we enter the more anaerobic zones of the substrate. Here too we have microscopic life some are good but not directly beneficial and some produce toxins for macro-life. So indiscriminate and large disturbance of these zones are to be avoided as much as possible.


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## delgado4604 (Dec 28, 2014)

essabee said:


> I don't like the idea of disturbing a settled tank for just having a laterite base. I would rather leave the tank substrate as it is till the tank needs to be redone.
> 
> Disturbing a tanks substrate, especially when the tank has been running for some time, will create several problems to be dealt with. Every tank which has been running for some time has stratified substrate contents both living and inert. The top layer has a lot of inert organic matter and aerobic organism. The inert matter is usually food for microscopic life and once it gets into the water column we have bacteria and algal blooms. Most of the aerobic organism present are beneficial to your tanks health, some are involved in your nitrogen cycle but most form the base of a food chain we often discount but is beneficial to our fishes.
> 
> As we dig deeper we enter the more anaerobic zones of the substrate. Here too we have microscopic life some are good but not directly beneficial and some produce toxins for macro-life. So indiscriminate and large disturbance of these zones are to be avoided as much as possible.



i agree and youre right about the problems it can cause. my fear stems from never having done an inert substrate to grow plants especially doing a high tech tank. now i hear a lot of people saying you really only need to dose fertz to the water column like i will be doing with dry ferts to get all you need to your plants and that the nutrient rich substrate is more of a safety net. substrates are depleted over time anyways right solely relying on water column dosing and these older planted tanks do fine somehow. im just trying to avoid failure after spending a lot of time researching and purchasing everything only to fail just because i didnt have the right base. it be nice if someone would just say oh youll be fine just use the pool filter sand inert as is and dose your dry fertz and your plants will grow just the same lol but i know im not getting that answer


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## Sam D (Nov 8, 2015)

Hey I was wondering if Petco aquarium sand is OK to grow plants. I picked some up yesterday but after reading all this I'm worried about my plants. I'm planning on putting some osmocote+ ( I think that's how you spell it lol) under the sand and using ferts but no co2 right now other then co2 booster.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

I use Black Diamond blasting media and Osmocote root tabs in my 55. i have had no issues with plants rooting through the sand. In fact if I look under my tank it looks like a root highway.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Nlewis said:


> I use Black Diamond blasting media and Osmocote root tabs in my 55. i have had no issues with plants rooting through the sand. In fact if I look under my tank it looks like a root highway.


This is the way to go it you want substrate on the cheap. IMO you should either use this or get aquasoil. Everything in between is inferior.

I have a very successful hair grass carpet using black diamond and osmocote in my high tech 75g. You can grow anything in that stuff and it is great to plant in. Delicate plants like HC could easily root and take hold. It is a very heavy substrate.


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## GertrudeRollins (Dec 11, 2015)

I have never used a carpet and always got the substrate from the website I got my fishes and the entire setup. I would love to try for the carpet for my next set of aquarium


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