# How Not to Plant a Tank



## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

I've got about 3-4 months of catching up to do w/ this journal. I feel the need to explain myself before I even get started on the tank. I will try to keep it short, as I am sure no one cares, so, feel free to skip the first couple of paragraphs.  

I love all kinds of animals- except slugs. Slugs are creepy. I am especially partial toward cats and reptiles, mainly turtles. I've had all kinds of reptiles and several red eared sliders. After I spent a long time doing research, I finally was able to keep one RES alive. His name was Tuffie. When I was 18, I moved out, and got a 55 gallon aquarium for Tuffie. I got a Mississippi map turtle, Murtle, who I kept in the 29 gallon where Tuffie spent the first few years of his life. I had Tuffie for nine years and Murtle for two...Something happened... I couldn't keep them anymore... If anyone asks, I had to get rid of them because they took too much time and money. I contacted a wild animal rescue place I found on the internet. The guy said he would keep Tuffie at the college nearby, I could come see him whenever I wanted; he assured me it would be fine. It was not fine. I cried when I gave them away, it was like putting up my kids for adoption. A couple of weeks later, when I contacted the rescue person, he told me he had given them to someone else and he couldn't give me their contact info. I asked him to give that person mine but I never heard about them again. 

Their tanks and equipment stayed in my parents basement for a few years. I started working for them in their office, and my dad mentions something about keeping a fish tank in the office. No problem, I think. I have all the stuff for it already. This will be cheap and easy. (November, 2011)

I was wrong. Terribly, terribly wrong. I set the 29 gallon (30 x 12 x 17) up using the larger rocks that I used for the turtles and their old filter (Fluval 104). I go to the LFS and buy some tetras and some aquatic plants. I get home and realize: the light I have isn't strong enough to grow plants. The plants won't be able to grow in the rocks I am using. The plants I have aren't even aquatic (except one annubias nana)...

*sigh* 

After doing some research and asking around, I decided that a T5 AquaticLife HO fixture with the 5600K and Roseate bulbs that came with it would be sufficient enough for plant growth. I got some Ecocomplete and switched out the substrate. Added a few more plants (brazilian sword, or peace lily which may not be aquatic either, but it's gotten a couple of new leaves since I've got it so we'll see how it goes) and removed the large decoration. Also got two angelfish at some point. Things were fine for a few weeks, until I started noticing this green slime forming on the substrate. 

Then it was all over all over everything. I would vacuum it out, scrub everything down, and change some of the water - and by the next day, you couldn't even tell that I had done anything. I tried blacking out the tank for a few days, but that barely made a difference. I got four otocinclus to help eat the slime - they didn't touch it. So I nuked it with Erythromycin, as I read that the slime was BGA (cyanobacteria). I bought all new media, since I didn't have anywhere to store the media I was using, and started the cycle over. Within a few days, the BGA was gone, but the water was murky, swamp-like. It was disgusting. I tried doing some partial water changes and I couldn't even tell a difference. I figured maybe theres so much dead BGA that it's murking up the water. I tore everything apart, put the fish in buckets, rinsed the substrate for a couple of hours and set it back up. I added a small in-tank filter that I had lying around for circulation. The order I placed for brazilian microsword came in and my neighbor gave me a java fern and a wisteria plant. The water was crystal clear. For about a week. At most. Back to the swampy murk. (January, 2012)

*sigh*

I spent a couple few weeks on this forum talking to very helpful people who are much more knowledgeable on the subject, and doing 30% water changes daily. There are also ugly diatoms all over everything. I come to learn that not only do I _still_ have poor circulation, but the filter is too small. I had a larger filter (Fluval 304) in the basement that I attempted to re-use. I bought a pump that could be used in circulation mode or as a powerhead and put a more appropriate background on it. I scrubbed off the diatoms, trimmed the dying leaves, removed the non-aquatic plants, and drained as much water as I could. I tried the pump in circulation mode at first. It was definitely circulating the water. The plants were sideways from being pushed over from the current and the fishies couldn't swim. I go to unplug it and switch to powerhead mode and realize there is water all over the floor. The larger filter was leaking. 

*sigh* 

So I put the smaller filter back up and plan to replace it soon. I suppose I will go with another Fluval, just because I am comfortable with them, I have used them for years and they are quiet. I will just run both for a few months, until the bigger one has gotten enough bacteria in it. 

As of now, the water is cloudy, and still somewhat resembling the murky crap I have been at war with for almost month now. I have two otos left, the two angelfish, and five tetras. I hate the way the tank looks. I want to actually have a design in the tank, as opposed to random plants being thrown in there wherever they fit. But I have to get control over the water quality first. And upgrade the filter. And the heater. 

*sigh* 

I might have missed a few details, or put the details I do have in the wrong order, but, basically, that's the gist of my first adventure in planted aquarium keeping.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

Meh, I can't figure out how to use the attachment manager either. I wanted to put the pics in the order they should be in the story. But I can't. So. If _this_ works:








swampy murky yucky stuff 








slightly less swampy murky yucky stuff 








getting better 








most recent

PS I am awful with cameras.


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## Manda0922 (Jan 23, 2012)

The bottom picture is the best and Im glad to see you switched out that background! So far so good!!


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## kcartwright856 (Jan 16, 2012)

I care! I'm sorry to hear about your turtles, and the bad experiences you've been having so far.

I'm certain that it will get better, especially with all of the knowledgeable people around here.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

Yay! Glad someone cares  

And thanks, I have a strong will when it comes to this tank. I'll figure it out eventually


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## Kyguylal (Jan 21, 2012)

In the first few pics, what is that green lance like plant that has the white stripes on each leaf?


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## Hawkian (Apr 14, 2010)

Don't despair! I've been at this over two years now and still battling some of my own monsters! It's a never-ending battle but it does get better. And when it does get better, you'll start making problems up so you can keep coming back at it 

I know that's what i do!

But it's never cheap...

*sigh*


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## morselchip (Jan 15, 2012)

You'll be fine- you're doing better than most by keeping the fish alive this far! I'm happy to see you've found a good resource too!


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

Kyguylal said:


> In the first few pics, what is that green lance like plant that has the white stripes on each leaf?


dracaena sanderiana is the white and dracaena variegatus is the gold. they're also known a ribbon plants and lucky bamboo and they are not aquatic. the one w/ the bamboo stalk is growing in a vase w/ rocks and seems to be doing ok. i put the other two in pots with potting soil and i've been noticing the leaves yellowing  i really do like them as houseplants and hope i can keep them alive.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

Hawkian said:


> Don't despair! I've been at this over two years now and still battling some of my own monsters! It's a never-ending battle but it does get better. And when it does get better, you'll start making problems up so you can keep coming back at it
> 
> I know that's what i do!
> 
> ...


lol, making problems up  don't need to. 

the worst part is waiting :icon_redf


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

morselchip said:


> You'll be fine- you're doing better than most by keeping the fish alive this far! I'm happy to see you've found a good resource too!


well, I've killed two otos and two tetras so far, so... 

I am pretty impressed with the ones who have made it through all of this tho. Also impressed with the plants. They've been moved so many times and covered in diatoms and yet some of them seem to be doing really well. 

And yes I am very grateful for this forum, and to HD Blazingwolf who has been most helpful and patient with me


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

Manda0922 said:


> The bottom picture is the best and Im glad to see you switched out that background! So far so good!!


really?! i thought that was worst... yes the coral background looked ridiculous, but I already had it and thought it looked better than nothing, with all of the tech stuff and this horrid flowered wallpaper in here. 

im afraid that the black is making it look even murkier and the diatoms are really noticeable on it. i want to make one w/ slate and moss someday. maybe. oh, the possibilities!


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

MY TANK WATER IS CLEAR!!!!!!

Super excited. 

Got the new filter set up Sat., did a large WC, and it's been crystal clear since. Plan to do 10% WC every other day for a week, 50% at the end of the week, then every two days, then every three, etc, until I am just at 50% every week. 

Got a couple of new plants (cryptocoryne parva) and two pieces of malaysian driftwood. Boiled the driftwood for an hour and a half or so and will soak it for however long it needs to. One piece I'm going to break into pieces to make branches and attach to the other piece to make it look as close to a tree as I can. Once it's ready I will put in an order for weeping moss. 

I'm so excited to start working on the aquascape and not have to worry about the water quality. I'm hoping that I've finally got it so that the water will stay clear and I won't ever have to see that murky crap in there again.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

Well the tank water is still clear, which is definitely good.

I spent a lot of time cleaning/trimming/changing water yesterday and noticed a lot of green spot algae :'(. Also something that resembles BGA on the substrate. 

And the marbel angel, Cornelius, has a red gill on one side and his eyes are red. He's also been kind of aggressive toward Elyria, the gold angel fish. They used to never leave each other's side. 

So I'm still pretty worried :/


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

Hhmmmm... Don't know what's going on with Cornelius' eyes and gill, but what are your water parameters? I have only had two occasions to worry about aggression, but both times it was pretty obvious. Your angels are obviously young (no older than 4 or 5 months) and it could be that you just got two male angels. One of which may be a little more aggressive than usual. Therefore one is dominating the other, now that fishy-puberty has kicked in.


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## crazydaz (Mar 18, 2007)

It'll be OK, Mommabear.....the first couple of months is all about researching and learning as much as you can; it's a steep learning curve! Eventually, things start making sense, and you begin to understand what questions to ask. Part of the joy of this hobby is that there is always something else to learn or try. Everyone has it tough in the beginning.

Sounds as though the angel is showing signs of becoming territorial, which is normal. You can add several more in due time; essentially you are making it crowded so the angels cannot form territories, and aggression is spread evenly so no one fish takes a constant beating. Or, you just keep one fish.

The red gill sounds like it may be infected. If it gets worse or doesn't go away, you should think about antibiotics from your local PetSmart or some place similar. However, I am NOT an expert on such maladies.....you should post a pic, if you can.

Don't get discouraged, and yes, we do care!  Thanks for posting!


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

moonshinetheslacker said:


> Hhmmmm... Don't know what's going on with Cornelius' eyes and gill, but what are your water parameters? I have only had two occasions to worry about aggression, but both times it was pretty obvious. Your angels are obviously young (no older than 4 or 5 months) and it could be that you just got two male angels. One of which may be a little more aggressive than usual. Therefore one is dominating the other, now that fishy-puberty has kicked in.


If by water parameters, you mean l x w x h its 30 x 12 x 17

He seems to be in a better mood today... they're hanging out together again. i had heard that angels can be aggressive but the guy at the lfs told me he had three in a 30 gallon (mine is 29) for over a year and they weren't aggressive at all. so i thought it would be ok, and haven't had any problems until yesterday i noticed he was getting nippy. 

I had a horrible experience with putting medication in the water. i will hope that it goes away for a little while longer. he is camera shy and not letting me get a picture atm.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

crazydaz said:


> It'll be OK, Mommabear.....the first couple of months is all about researching and learning as much as you can; it's a steep learning curve! Eventually, things start making sense, and you begin to understand what questions to ask. Part of the joy of this hobby is that there is always something else to learn or try. Everyone has it tough in the beginning.
> 
> Sounds as though the angel is showing signs of becoming territorial, which is normal. You can add several more in due time; essentially you are making it crowded so the angels cannot form territories, and aggression is spread evenly so no one fish takes a constant beating. Or, you just keep one fish.
> 
> ...


I've definitely been doing my research. And yes, there are all kinds of things I want to try  i'm glad i at least got the water quality taken care of (so far). huge relief! I'll keep an eye on him. I really don't want to use medication because of the nightmare I went through the last time I tried that :S I'm hoping that since the water quality has improved, maybe he will heal on his own.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

just wanted to post this to have the info readily available 

Started 11/2011
Lighting: 30" AquaticLife T5 HO Dual Lamp with 6400K bulb and rosatte bulb
Equipment: Fluval 104 and Fluval 304 canister, maxijet 400 powerhead, 2 heaters
No CO2 right now
Size: 29 gallon/30 x 12 x 17
Fertilization: Flourish 
Plants: Annubias barteri (nana), Spathiphyllum tasson (brazilian sword or peace lily), Lilaeopsis brasiliensis (brazilian microsword), Hygrophila difformis (wisteria), Microsorum pteropus (java fern), and cryptocoryne parva
Inhabitants: 5 red minor tetras, 2 angelfish, and 2 otocinclus


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

By water parameters, I mean how many ppm (Parts Per Million) your ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are at, as well as the temperature in the tank, and anything you may have added to the tank (medicines, fertilizers, snake oils, etc.) I personally am very new to angels, and consider myself to still be very new to aquariums. I've had fish for 1.5 years now, and have managed to keep supposedly difficult fish alive and thriving, and killed some of the hardyest fish around. 

I've purchased 5 angels, and have two. Both of which are thriving. One of them is the oldest one I purchased, and the other is the newest. The three in between died off, without ever showing any signs of stress... so take my advice for what it's worth.

You might consider adding a little bit of aquarium salt to the tank, as it helps the fish fight infections. You can find some at just about any local fish store. Directions will be on the box. It's basically just a small amount of electrolytes to help the fish's immune system.

But most of all, don't sweat the small stuff. There is a lot to learn about aquariums. The basics (from what I've learned) are as follows:

Don't overstock your fish
Know how big the fish you purchase will be when they are full grown
Don't overfeed your fish
Do weekly water changes, between 25-50%
Have a filter
Have a heater
Have a thermometer to make sure the heater is working
Purchase a water testing kit, and use it.

There's a lot more, but those are the necessities.


P.S. lucky bamboo will grow under water just fine, as long as some of the leaves and stem are sticking out of the water. I've had a shoot of "lucky bamboo" live over a year, growing out the top of an aquarium. I finally tore down the tank, and didn't have a place to put the bamboo. I tried a vase, and the stupid thing died a week later.

Good luck!


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

moonshinetheslacker said:


> By water parameters, I mean how many ppm (Parts Per Million) your ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are at, as well as the temperature in the tank, and anything you may have added to the tank (medicines, fertilizers, snake oils, etc.) I personally am very new to angels, and consider myself to still be very new to aquariums. I've had fish for 1.5 years now, and have managed to keep supposedly difficult fish alive and thriving, and killed some of the hardyest fish around.
> 
> I've purchased 5 angels, and have two. Both of which are thriving. One of them is the oldest one I purchased, and the other is the newest. The three in between died off, without ever showing any signs of stress... so take my advice for what it's worth.
> 
> ...


 
ammonia and nitrite are 0, nitrate between 5-10. I add flourish when I do water changes, which is 1 - 2x a week. 

Does the aquarium salt effect the water.. parameters?  

the fish were nipping at a piece that had come off the stalk on the bamboo. It worried me because I know that the leaves are slightly toxic. So I removed it. It's doing ok in the vase, so far, but it still has the dead spot on it. The ones in dirt in pots aren't doing so well.


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

Well to be perfectly honest, the only sick fishies that I have been able to bring back have been kuhli loaches, and a zebra danio. The kuhlis, I just kept the water really clean, and used aquarium salt. The zebra danio needed medication. 

And as far as people helping you try to cure a sick fish, you will want to tell them every single thing you possibly can about the water. That includes everything you put in it. It's probably one of the reasons nobody is able/willing to help me out with my tank. They assume any deaths I have are related to all the crazy stuff I put in my substrate... which is why I don't bother telling them about all that crazy stuff. hehe.

p.s. I didn't know that dracaena leaves were toxic. Learn something new every day, eh?


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

have you ever heard of fish diseases being contagious? 

indeed we do learn something every day... although i'm pretty sure i also forget something too, so, it equals out


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

I'm not entirely certain that I've heard of non-contagious fish diseases. If any fish is sick, the first piece of advice that I've ever gotten was "separate immediately, quarantine, and medicate"


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

moonshinetheslacker said:


> I'm not entirely certain that I've heard of non-contagious fish diseases. If any fish is sick, the first piece of advice that I've ever gotten was "separate immediately, quarantine, and medicate"


Ahhh... I don't have a quarantine tank :/ 
People at the pet store think it is a parasite and they gave me Jugle Parasite Clear. I don't trust pet store people too much though and am afraid to use any medication because of what happened last time. 
But I can't seem to find information online, so I guess I don't have much of a choice.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

Time for an update. After my 50% WC over the weekend, I took out all the brazilian microswords, wiped the brown algae off, and replanted throughout the tank. It looks kind of messy now :S 

Also added the piece of mopani driftwood that has been soaking for 3 months and attached the java fern to it. I like it, but today when I came in, one of the java ferns had fallen down, so I need to try to get it back in place.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

Crappy cell phone pics


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

Final diagnosis for Cornelius is a bacterial infection. God help me, but i bought a used 10 gallon tank for $25. It seemed like a good idea at the time, because it came with all the stuff. I won't be using the stuff that came with it so........ Fail. Waiting on ecocomplete. Then will get it running and treat poor Cornelius. 

Moved some stuff around in the 29 gallon. Still dissatisfied. Hopefully I will get around to making the tree trunk this week for the much anticipated moss tree.


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## ucantimagine (Jan 8, 2012)

This hobby is definitely an exercise of patience. Everytime I try to do anything other than feed or change the water, I find myself sayin, "Why does everything have to be a chore!?" Nothing wants to cooperate, I get water everywhere, and things always take longer than I thought they would. sighhhhh I just take a deep breath and push through. The payoff is staring at my tank and stalking my shrimp like a peeping tom. hahaha 

Your tank has come a long way, and the problems do level off with time.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

ucantimagine said:


> This hobby is definitely an exercise of patience. Everytime I try to do anything other than feed or change the water, I find myself sayin, "Why does everything have to be a chore!?" Nothing wants to cooperate, I get water everywhere, and things always take longer than I thought they would. sighhhhh I just take a deep breath and push through. The payoff is staring at my tank and stalking my shrimp like a peeping tom. hahaha
> 
> Your tank has come a long way, and the problems do level off with time.


lol! not that i don't enjoy staring at my tank. i just... don't like it. kind of frustrating, to put all that work into it and still be dissatisified. gives me something fun to do though. i just hope eventually i will like the way it looks. i've seen such beautiful tanks on here and i look at mine and it's just... meh.


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## ucantimagine (Jan 8, 2012)

Many of those tanks have been worked on for years...and many of those tank owners are simply more talented them me at this. Lol I have accepted this fact. I hate my 12 gallon tank.I changed the substrate to soil and have had ammonia problems ever since. My crypts are doing great though. Sighh


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

ucantimagine said:


> Many of those tanks have been worked on for years...and many of those tank owners are simply more talented them me at this. Lol I have accepted this fact. I hate my 12 gallon tank.I changed the substrate to soil and have had ammonia problems ever since. My crypts are doing great though. Sighh


yeah i think read something about all the bio breakdown that happens w/ soil. so i spend the $ on the substrate :S I think eventually there won't be anything left to decompose and then you shouldnt have ammonia problems anymore. isn't waiting fun?  (i dont really know what im talking about. ive read so much, it's all run together and i don't know what i know anymore.)


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

looking back at these pictures is quite astonishing. doesn't even look like the same tank. i have a wisteria aquarium now, hah. it filled up the tank. been cutting pieces off and throwing them out. its going pretty good besides some algae, but its not as problematic as it once was. Very slowly working on the tree. Hard to find a good time to use a loud machine that spews pieces of driftwood everywhere around an 18 month old. fancy that. 

i finnnnnnnnally got the back up/quarantine tank set up and Cornelius has undergone one full dose of antibiotics. i can't even slightly tell a difference. I'm also suffering from a great deal of "mom guilt" from moving him. I took him out of his home, away from his friends. He hid behind the filter like a caged animal (I mean, he is, but.. you know what I mean). My 18 month old daughter kept excitedly screaming and hitting the tank. She means well, I'm sure. We're working on it. Its been almost a week and he comes out from behind the filter and he is eating now. So at least he is getting used to his new home. I'm just concerned that I put him through all that and the medicine isnt working. I thought I had read something about some fish having a missing palate or something.... 

I dunno. Will post updated pictures in the near future.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

updated pics


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

the tree project. completely forgot to take a picture of the 2nd piece before it was cut into branches. kinda too late now. 

using a mix of aquarium glue/silicone and superglue. the branches just barely seem to be hanging on. i dont think a screw would go through this stuff without splitting it. not sure how it will hold in the current.


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## mattrt09 (Jun 12, 2010)

the updated pictures look great! getting better just takes time!


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## crazydaz (Mar 18, 2007)

Keep up the good work, Mommabear!! This hobby is pretty much like golf: you either love it or hate it.....which are you?

I doubt that your little one will do much to the tank if she is hitting or slapping it, unless she has something really hard in her hands (like a rock, etc.). Just don't let her tilt it over!! 

Your antibiotics may or may not work on Cornelius. I gave up using them as they seemed to kill off all the "good" nitrifying bacteria and never really healed the infection or solved the actual problem. I'll keep my fingers crossed for him!


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

thanks matt! 

crazydaz - thanks, im really enjoying it! not a lot of time (or money) right now to do the research required for what i want to achieve with this. so i just have to let it be for now.

i don't think she's strong enough to tip it over (i flipping hope not). but she can open the lid and stick her hand in there so that could mess something up. but the tank cornelius is in is just a back up... for now... i dont think its even cycled. i was just going to keep him in it to medicate him.. didn't want to risk killing off my good bacteria in the established tank with the antibiotics. someday i would like to do something with it but it will be many moons from now. i will try giving him another round of anitbiotics and if there's still no difference, maybe i'll just take him back home and assume that the red hole by one of his gills and his red eyes are normal. :/ he'd been like that for months before i finally got the back up tank set up and him in there. must not be _too_ sick.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

LOL and u told me growth was slow.. as u can see now. the bigger the plant get. the faster it grows in man cases

especially concerning a weed such as wisteria

doesn't look like the algae is too rough.. lemme know how things are going. u gotst ma numbers


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

lol.. the growth of everything besides the wisteria is slow =P 
algae not too bad, no, compared to what it was. you can't really see in the pictures that its all over the plants. not the wisteria so much, but everything else.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

Invested $1.00 in a scrub pad and then went to work on the algae infesting my tank. I'm thinking the blue-green slimy sticky stuff in the front right corner could've been in part due from poor flow in that area. So I moved the powerhead to face that corner. It's unsightly but we'll see if that helps. Gently vacuumed the gravel because someone was way too generous with the fish food over the weekend, spent some time trimming, and changed about 60% of the water. Some kind of grey, chalky stuff came off of the filter tubes. Dead algae, maybe??? I also rinsed out the filters and replaced the old carbon with filter floss. Replaced some of the floss that was in the small filter too. Pretty nervous about the effect all that will have. There was still a chunk of floss I left in there and both filters have bio max in them so hopefully I didn't destroy too much of the bacteria. 

So we always have trouble getting the smaller filter to run again. Not sure what it is. My poor fiance was vigorously pumping it for about 15 - 20 minutes and couldn't get it going. He then stops, leans over, does something, comes back up and says, "Erin... maybe you should plug this in first." Somehow, I am still engaged.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

I should not be allowed to own pets. I lost the fish food for a couple of days. And then today realized the second (larger) filter wasn't plugged in. It probably hasn't been plugged in since the last water change, which was over a week ago. Anyone know what that will do? Is the bacteria completely dead or just dormant, maybe??

I can only hope that the algae all over everything was made worse by the fact that one of the filters wasn't running. I am so frustrated with this thing.


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## 2in10 (Feb 8, 2011)

Clean the second filter thoroughly and change out the filter material. It may poison the tank. If you open up the lid and smell inside it will most likely smell like rotten eggs. Be very careful and make sure you work in a well ventilated area when you first start working on the filter.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

....its been running for almost 6 hours... what did i do to my fish?!


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

The plants seemed to have stopped growing and started dying. Even the wisteria seems to be dying. I trimmed a LOT of it a couple of weeks ago, because it was covered in algae. The newer growth is bright green, but its slow compared to what it used to be, barely even noticeable. Also a sheet of BGA over the gravel and some of the plants. Brown and blackish algae all over everything else. : / The leaves are breaking off. 

Maybe a cover over the tank to decrease the amount of light thats getting in? I fertilize w. flourish comp once a week but thats it. I can't seem to remember to put the excel in so basically no CO2. Ive been meaning to get snails to aerate the gravel. This thing has kind of been put on hold for awhile. But I'm almost ready to start working on it again. 

I'm afraid I'll have to just throw the plants out and start over. I'm not entirely opposed to that since I hate the way this looks anyway, but I'm afraid I'll just have the same problems again. I can't seem to get rid of the BGA or diatoms. :'(


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## Pooky125 (Jul 30, 2002)

I'm curious, what are the water parameters of your tap water?


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

I dunno, don't have any tests


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## Pooky125 (Jul 30, 2002)

Most fish stores will test your water for free if you bring in a sample. Are you using city water? Or well water? Is there a water softener softening your tap water?


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

Well I tested it when I started this around November last year and it was nitrates 0 nitrites 0 ph 7.5 (i think) and either gh or kh was kind of high, but not extremely high, some where around 5 maybe??? I don't really remember what the strip levels were. I'm assuming it hasn't really changed, but I do know that they recently updated the filtration system in this city. A couple of months ago the water reeked of chlorine because they had put too much in. It still has a slight chlorine smell. I am using a tap water conditioner that removes chlorine/chloramine and detoxifies heavy metals. I don't treat the water before I do the change tho. I put it in right after the change. So I'm not sure if that's having an effect on it or not.


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## Pooky125 (Jul 30, 2002)

Not treating it before adding it to the tank shouldn't make much of a difference. I've always done it that way and never had any problems. (Though I'm sure there are other people have...) But, if your plants started going downhill a few weeks after your cities new filtration system, you may have found your problem. I think it would be worth getting it tested again, or looking up your cities water quality report online and seeing what they say is what.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

Could be, but the wisteria was the only one that grew in the first place. The rest of them had completely stopped growing and now the leaves are breaking off. When I cut a bunch of the wisteria out, it seemed to have stopped growing too.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

bad storm. Powers been out since 6 last night. I'm assuming the media will need replaced. Are my fish safe with no filtration or circulation??


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

*sniffle*


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## marcosis (Jul 1, 2012)

Proof that hobbies can take over your life..lol I wouldn't have it any other way though good luck mommabear you sound like you could use a little keep at it and try to be methodical and regular with the tank chores try keeping a little diary of some sort I found it worked for me :-D


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

I was regularly changing the water and was pretty good about rinsing the filter media once a month, too. i put flourish comp in once a week. there weren't too many plants in there so i'm not sure that it needed much more than that. i wasn't too good about vacuuming the gravel, either, but at one point there was so much wisteria that that would've been difficult anyway. so i'm not sure what other tank chores i was missing. obviously something was off tho. i was keeping this as a diary 

the city sent a water report. i didn't see anything that could be causing a problem (although i wasn't entirely sure what i was looking for... nitrates and chlorine wasn't extremely high tho). they did say that chance of contamination was relatively high... which isn't very specific... 

so now I am anxiously awaiting the arrival of several plants thanks to xenexes (who said there should be some snails coming with them) and sjbj1987 (who is also sending osmocote and iron root tabs). 

Plants will be: 
- ludwiga arcuata
- green cabomba 
- ludwiga repens
- hydrocotyle
- random mosses & pellia 
- random floaters
- l. sp. red 
- bacopa caroliniana 
- vallisneria sp. 

this should be a nice variety of easier plants to practice with. 

i haven't moved the fish back home yet because i figure they'd appreciate having the plants in there before they get moved. i've been turning the light on for a couple of hours a day for the sickly java fern and c. parva. i've been dropping some fish food in there to feed the bacteria/test that there even is bacteria. so far ammonia - 0, nitrite -0, nitrate - 10 (im guessing, since it goes from 0 - 20 and its not quite 0 or 20). I'm assuming the bacteria has survived the power outage from those tests but i guess we'll find out after its stocked. 

Sooooo... now I'm trying to learn about fertilizing. I seem to be having trouble finding the info that I need. If anyone wants to provide links or words of wisdom... it would be much appreciated... I don't even really know where to begin ATM :/


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

plants!! worst aquascape ever :/ just kinda threw em in there for now


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

Thought I'd update and write the thoughts running around my mind down.. 

I've been dosing with dry ferts for a week or two:

Mon: 1/4th tsp KNO3, 1/16th tsp (pinch) KH2PO4
Tue: 1/16th tsp traces, 1 tsp MgSO4, 1/16th K2SO4 
Wed: 1/4th KNO3, 1/16th tsp KH2PO4
Thur: 1/16th tsp traces 
Fri: prune, clean glass, 50% WC, add 1/4th tsp KNO3 & half cap Flourish

I need to get some calcium... I have hard water so not too worried about it.. If anyone would like to critique my regime please do so because something seems off about it.. 

I put the CO2 tube in a powerhead and I can hear it when the bubbles go through it and see a little mist, but I can't tell a difference in my tank.. 

Which is probably because... 

There's diatoms all over everything. All. Over. Everything. 

I put four otos in there yesterday... but they don't seem to be working on the thicker masses of diatoms... Or maybe they haven't found them yet? 

I've read you can take the plants out and put them in one part bleach, ten parts water. If the plants are already fragile since they haven't recovered from being shipped and then didnt have ferts for a couple of weeks... will this bleach completely kill them?? the diatoms are going to kill them if the bleach doesn't anyway... :/ 

I'm in the process of getting everything for DIY CO2, will increased CO2 help with diatoms too? 

Also I've read that diatoms like low light. I've had the lights (6700k t5ho and a roseate) since Nov of last year. Should I put new bulbs in? Should I try a 6700k and a 10000k this time?? I read somewhere that I need to be leaving the lights on longer. They're on about 10 hours a day. Should I increase it to 12?


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## dubels (Jun 14, 2012)

Give the otos time. I have two in my dwarf puffer tank that was almost completely brown. In less than a week they took care of all the diatoms. 

Don't pull the plants unless you really have to. You will have problems with replanting the roots later. Diatoms can grow regardless of light, they really depend on silicates to grow. The otos will take care of it an the diatoms will also slowly go awy on its own.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

thats what i've been told and what i've read, but i haven't been able to get rid of them. this is the 2nd time i've started over tho so maybe im just not waiting long enough.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

The otos have done a great job. Those things are adorable. There are a couple of plants still covered in algae. I thought it it might be some type of filamentous diatoms, but now I'm afraid it might be BBA? I couldn't really get a good picture. The only way I can describe it is hairy and brown. There are also black dots on some of the plants. And green dots, kinda green smears on the glass in the back. And black smears on the front of the glass. 

I've been dosing everything but calcium - just need to order it but since I have hard water I wasn't too concerned about it. Honestly just don't want to pay shipping for one fert, so I was going to order some other things I needed at the same time from the same place if possible. 

Also changed the schedule to: 

Mon: 1/4th tsp KNO3, 1/16th tsp (pinch) KH2PO4, 1/16th traces 
Tue: 
Wed: 1/4th KNO3, 1/16th tsp KH2PO4, 1/16th traces 
Thur: 1 tsp MgSO4, 1/16th K2SO4 
Fri: 1/4th KNO3, 1/16th tsp KH2PO4, 1/16th traces 
Sat or Sun: prune, clean glass, 50% WC, half cap Flourish

Since I read that you _can_ dose macros and micros in the same day as long as the macros have diluted before you add the micros or vice versa. 

The only thing that's left that I could be doing wrong is the CO2, right?  I was planning on doing DIY CO2 but man that seems like a lot of work. I probably will anyway, it's just... I thought that BBA had something to do with CO2 fluctuations and those are probably hard to avoid with the DIY. 

I have a lot of studying to do, but if someone can tell from this crappy picture what the hairy stuff is and let me know, I'd be much obliged.


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## vannyvanny (Aug 7, 2012)

Awwww Mommabear! I've just began reading your journal today and let me tell you, you've had some horrible luck with everything. Here's an idea of how to decorate your aquarium with plants. 

Take the plants out and put them in size order. Put the largest ones in the back and move your way down. Adjust them how you like it and put driftwood in dense areas. Plants should be planted largest to smallest from the back to the front, in order to get the most "Looks" out of it. 

Or just design your aquarium on a piece of paper and work from that. Haha. If you're making a moss tree I think you should put that in front of your filter, as to hide the tube and make your aquarium prettier. Seachem has a product called "Purigen" which works really well, from what I heard. It works kind of like carbon, and transforms you water into a crystal oasis. >.> Corny, I know. 

If I had your aquarium problems I would have gave up a long time ago since I do not have the funds to buy that much equipment. It is clear that you really want to make this work and I applaud you as an aquarium owner!


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

LOL thank you for the advice.. I know it looks really bad... I'm waiting for some dwiftwood from Mr. Tom Barr to finish soaking and then I will rescape it. It should be done in about a week or so. I don't see a point in trying to replant everything if I'll just need to do it again in a week or so anyway. Moreover the plants were hard to even identify when I first got them so I just kinda tossed em in there until I could see what they were going to look like.. 

Even with all those excuses I know I'm still not an artist so I'm just hoping that even after I've figured out the details I can get the tank to look pretty... 

This is a shared expense. There is no way I could've paid for this alone. Sad part is... all this time and effort and money.. and it looks like _that_!! :'(

But thanks for the applause! I could use the encouragement. I'm not gonna give up!


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Aw.

Just keep trying, keep it simple.

Regards.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Look, this may help:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=180044

And look at this examples:

http://en.iaplc.com/results12/popular_vote/


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

lol jeez guys.. *hangs head in shame* i know it looks bad! i'm just trying to GROW the plants right now.. i'll work on scaping it later.. 

Does anyone know what type of algae that is??


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Doesn't really matter what kind of algae it is, for the most part.

Assuming the light is a constant. Lack of co2 and surface agitation is usually the culprit. You can diminish the light, increase surface agitation and if that doesn't work then increase co2.

All of which must be done isolated and observed for 2 weeks to get a good impression of what is causing it.

You can improve the surface gas exchange by using a $10 skimmer, I had one with fluval canisters like yours, but the outflow of those canisters is not as good as a spray bar pointed to the surface. That REALLY makes a big difference.

With this co2/o2 equilibrium you will experience better growth and no algae.

This one for the co2/o2, surface agitation/skimmer:

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php?t=10282

The $10 surface skimmer:
http://www.hagen.com/pdf/aquatic/Surface_Skimmer.pdf

My medium light method:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=183530












My low light method:










Pretty much, good surface agitation, no co2, pps pro dosing, bi weekly wc.


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## vannyvanny (Aug 7, 2012)

mommabear1007 said:


> LOL thank you for the advice.. I know it looks really bad... I'm waiting for some dwiftwood from Mr. Tom Barr to finish soaking and then I will rescape it. It should be done in about a week or so. I don't see a point in trying to replant everything if I'll just need to do it again in a week or so anyway. Moreover the plants were hard to even identify when I first got them so I just kinda tossed em in there until I could see what they were going to look like..
> 
> Even with all those excuses I know I'm still not an artist so I'm just hoping that even after I've figured out the details I can get the tank to look pretty...
> 
> ...


Don't be silly! Everybody can be an artist when it comes to aquariums.  I really like the driftwood in the first picture you put up. It has many holes and nice curvy edges. I skimmed through pejerrey's link and it says something about plants being less is more. Even the simple wisteria can turn your 29 g into a masterpiece, right? Keep being optimistic! Your aquarium doesn't look that bad, since you're going to rescape it and such.  I actually like the unknown hairy plants o_o 

Plants with huge leaves will make your tank look smaller, while plants with smaller leaves will give it a bigger scale look. You can invest in a DIY CO2 system and REALLY get those plants flourishing before rescaping it.  As I said earlier, drawing it out will and can help. 

Never think that the aquarium you started out with will be the aquarium you end up with. My tank was devoid of all living plants except for a few. 










I changed the lighting and got a few more plants plus driftwood and it became this. 









It may not be the best or most organized tank out there, but I'm pretty darn proud of it.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Ok, updated post 66.

Links provided.



PS. Doesn't matter what you dose, if the plants don't have enough co2 to process the nutrients then algae will have to do it. That is the way nature works.

Don't want co2? Then make sure You have low light.


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## vannyvanny (Aug 7, 2012)

pejerrey said:


> Doesn't really matter what kind of algae it is, for the most part.
> 
> Assuming the light is a constant. Lack of co2 and surface agitation is usually the culprit. You can diminish the light, increase surface agitation and if that doesn't work then increase co2.
> 
> ...


What a beauty


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

vannyvanny said:


> What a beauty


Thanks, the funny part is that the first one doesn't even need water changes. This are the most low maintenance tanks I've ever had.


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## Em85 (Apr 16, 2009)

mommabear1007 said:


> *sniffle*


This made me lol so hard. 


Don't give up


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## vannyvanny (Aug 7, 2012)

mommabear1007 said:


> plants!! worst aquascape ever :/ just kinda threw em in there for now



You need taller plants!


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

increase surface agitation for more O2, right? if increasing O2 doesn't help, then increase CO2?? that seems kind of conflicted? i read those links and i knew that increase surface agitation decreased CO2 but isn't that the opposite of what i'm trying to do?? i have a decent amount of surface agitation. I don't really want to suspend the lights and can't leave them on any less than 8 hrs, since it's in an office, which is open 8 hrs a day. 

I'm pretty sure the problem is lack of CO2. since i've been fertilizing, the need for CO2 has probably increased. And since the amount of CO2 hasn't increased, the algae is probably using the extra nutrients. I think. 

I had been considering DIY yeast method but the more I think about it, pressurized seems the way to go. I've been reading up on it... I think I can do it... Is there anything I should know? 

Vanny, that first piece of driftwood with the holes and such.. was a fake decoration I just tossed in there until I got enough plants. I liked it too, and still have it, but it goes against the natural thing I'm trying to achieve. 

I can't wait until that driftwood i ordered is ready to put in the tank. I think just having the driftwood in there will make a huge difference. Even if I do have too many different kinds of unhealthy plants haha  I kinda just wanted to get a bunch of different ones and see which ones did well and which ones I liked most, and stick with those


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

Em85 said:


> This made me lol so hard.
> 
> 
> Don't give up


glad i could give ya a giggle


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

vannyvanny said:


> You need taller plants!


i need the plants i have to grow!!


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

mommabear1007 said:


> increase surface agitation for more O2, right? if increasing O2 doesn't help, then increase CO2?? that seems kind of conflicted? i read those links and i knew that increase surface agitation decreased CO2 but isn't that the opposite of what i'm trying to do?? i have a decent amount of surface agitation. I don't really want to suspend the lights and can't leave them on any less than 8 hrs, since it's in an office, which is open 8 hrs a day.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the problem is lack of CO2. since i've been fertilizing, the need for CO2 has probably increased. And since the amount of CO2 hasn't increased, the algae is probably using the extra nutrients. I think.
> 
> I had been considering DIY yeast method but the more I think about it, pressurized seems the way to go. I've been reading up on it... I think I can do it... Is there anything I should know?


The only conflicting thing is the way you interpreted it. 
It's ok you don't understand why, but that doesn't make it wrong.


Increase surface agitation for atmospheric gas exchange, yes O2 but also CO2. And with more available O2 plants process better or need less CO2. It's not always about increasing stuff, is about making it efficient. 

Try making co2/o2 balance more efficient first, observe two weeks. Then move on to increase the co2 injection if needed. Observe 2 weeks, try again.

Learn about photosynthesis and photorespiration and BOD(biological oxygen demand).

Surface agitation conflicts co2 when there is splashing (surface braking) or bubbles like from an airstone. Also temperature affects a liquid capability to retain dissolved gas.

Please read this:

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php?t=10282

Take a look to the links provided in post #1.

About the light, it's more about doing what the tank needs, do what you can/need to do and not what you want to do and things are going to be better.

Planted tanks teach very deep philosophical lessons in my opinion. 

This tank's light is 3 hrs on, 3 hrs off, 3 hrs on and 15 hrs off. Total 6hrs.










You said you have good surface agitation? Is it like this?
http://youtu.be/d1wmeaC4P0c

You may see some BBA in my spray bar, I had my lights on 2 and 6 hrs (total 8). it's gone after increasing the co2 and shortening photoperiod. Compromised for the good of the tank.

Nothing is life is absolutely black OR white. It's all about balance, look at my tank's pics, I'm just trying to help. Let me know if I should stop.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

No don't stop, I need all the help I can get  

Those links in the link, if that makes sense, were way over my head. I'm also on my third day of not smoking so processing much of anything is hard to do right now. I will definitely read up about photosynthesis and photorespiration and BOD. 

I just want what my tank needs! Haha its hard to figure that out tho. Quite a bit to consider. 

Funny I was just thinking that about the philosophical lessons of a planted tank a few days ago...


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

The whole thing about aquatic plant growth and health becomes very simple and obvious after the tedious process of learning the context. But it should be fun to learn as you have passion for the hobby. Right? Just be patient with your learning pace.

It took me a few times to read and understand all that info, but it's fun to learn about this and it pays at the end with its results. Less fret for better looking tank.

It's like if my car transmission brakes and I get all this people telling me what tools I may need to repair it. I get all the tools and open the hood to fix it without basic knowledge. Well, I'll take me a minute to realize the tranny is not under the hood to start.

As I said before, I think you should address the surface first. Then observe and read more about the topic in the meantime. You should also work on making the layout a bit more pleasing, grouping plants a bit more together.

When people gives you advice, look at their work, there is a lot of people in this forum that gives advice without even having it together themselves. They are trying to help of course that is very generous, but may not be very accurate.

I can say that i did do that too.

Good luck! 

-c


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Hello, here is another article about aeration and plant growth:

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php?t=9494

There is a misconception about too much aeration causing slow growth due to photorespiration. Well, aeration is different than oxygenation. Air is not pure oxygen, so you can't go past the atmospheric concentration of O2. But as you mentioned, if you overkill the surface agitation into splashing and such, then you will loose co2 and favor algae and decrease plant growth.

The key is balance. 

The more the merrier as long as it is in the right proportions. This is the principle of EI dosing as I understand it.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

I still have a quite a bit of reading to do, but I wanted to reply now so you didn't think I had abandoned you. Thanks so much for the help. I really appreciate it. 

I don't quite understand about Fick's laws of diffusion. I've read those links a couple of times and I just don't get what they're trying to say. :/ Can you help me understand this? I think Fick's law just a mathematical equation for the rate of diffusion? The thread is saying that if I don't have good surface agitation, then there is a layer of scum that I may or may not see, which is keeping the CO2 inside the tank. Is this right?? 

i realized i didn't answer your question about the surface agitation. Yes that video that you posted what my surface looks like - on half of the tank. If you go back a few pages on this journal you will see a picture of my empty tank with just the intake and out take tubes from the filters. I have them like that because I was trying to get more circulation to the bottom of the tank. I now have a powerhead that's basically in the same place as the out take thats toward the bottom, to the left. so i could cut the out take hose so that it ripples the surface on that side. I will do that today.

.... I may or may not have ordered what I needed for pressurized CO2. I've decided not to mess with DIY. I understand what you're trying to tell me about inefficiency and I realize I have a lot more to learn - but even so, I will still need CO2 somehow and the DIY method honestly is just too much of a pain in the ass lol. I would really prefer a steadier supply. I don't think I could possibly have enough without any type of CO2. There's only one fish and four otos.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Hello, about the law of diffusion. 

I think that what basically matters in this topic is to understand that this want to try to balance out to the same concentration. Therefore you couldn't possibly have more diluted o2 in the water than what is in the air you are exchanging gasses with, same with co2. But when we inject pure co2 the concentration is greater than in the atmosphere therefore we can reach higher concentrations in the water, but over time, because of the same law, we will loose that higher concentration and this can be sped up by temperature and too much surface agitation.

I didnt see your agitation, but as I had fluval canisters as you have, I know that is difficult I provide proper agitation without splashing this loosing co2.

The proper way to do that is by pointing up a jet towards the surface from below it. That will ensure proper gas exchange and also good distribution.

And about reading an understanding all of that. I still dot get all the phd blah blah, I just focus on what is relevant for my hobby.

Is truth that you may need more co2, but in the meantime you can reduce that need by lowering the intensity of your light.(hrs, height, dimming,etc).

That way, while you wait for your co2 set up (u r wise to get the real deal), you are not gonna get your tank covered in algae.

Do you understand Liebig's law of the minimum? 

If not, wiki it. It's important too.

Cheers!


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

i do understand Liebigs law. I stumbled across it learning about ferts. I believe I have studied these elements backwards... I'm kind of a backward person anyway so I guess it fits. 

So... use the powerhead to agitate the other side instead of the other filter hose? I didn't end up cutting it when I did my water change like I said I was going to :x. I've been trying to decide if I want to put the CO2 into that filter or through the powerhead. I'm worried about losing the CO2 if I have it go directly to the surface. Where do you think the best place to put the CO2 is?


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

I got a pressurized CO2 system!!

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=188400

that was fun. thanks complexity and hd blazingwolf for walking me through that! 

Rescaped. Not at all what I had in mind but I did an alright job hiding the equipment. Not entirely satisfied but i did what i could with what i had. that's tom barr's wood if i didnt already mention that earlier in this journal. he sent me a whole box full for a great price!! it soaked for 3 weeks but the water was still a lil yellow so i hope the water doesn't end up looking too bad. me and my impatience 

The tops need to curve in more and be branchier, i know. I need some type of plant that will do ok attached to the wood like tree top leaves. that will help. don't really wanna use moss. i have some wisteria i will try. anyone who has a better plant idea please offer your suggestions. 

i need to put some cabomba on the other side too, like bushes. that ludwiga needs to hurry up and grow taller! i like that plant but for the jungle direction i'm kind of ending up in i'm not sure about it. it probably needs to be on the other side too. 

i need a background plant. jungle val? hairgrass? what do you guys think?

i might also end up putting some of the small river rocks i have under the arch as a river or path. but i'll wait to make sure i dont get algae. 

i'm kind of concerned about water movement in the right corner. :icon_roll

critiques/suggestions/ect please!! 

pics:


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

mommabear1007 said:


> i do understand Liebigs law. I stumbled across it learning about ferts. I believe I have studied these elements backwards... I'm kind of a backward person anyway so I guess it fits.
> 
> So... use the powerhead to agitate the other side instead of the other filter hose? I didn't end up cutting it when I did my water change like I said I was going to :x. I've been trying to decide if I want to put the CO2 into that filter or through the powerhead. I'm worried about losing the CO2 if I have it go directly to the surface. Where do you think the best place to put the CO2 is?



Ok, this is my opinion:


Now, you should read about Fick's law of diffusion:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fick's_laws_of_diffusion
It's a wiki, but simple enough to understand. About o2 and co2 gas exchange and surface agitation.

There is many ways to do co2, start with a diffuser and position it in a way that one of the outlets will spread the mist. You can see it. That is cheap, easy and effective. Like most Ada set ups.

When you need A LOT of co2, with halide lights and stuff, then think to go more complex into a reactor or something. But only IF YOU NEED TO.

Get a spray bar and point it up in an angle from below the surface a few inches.

I doubt you need a powerhead, do you have two canisters right? 

About the plants, looks better! I like the driftwood! 

If im not mistaken, all those plants are like background plants. I would move them back. 
They grow fast and tall. 

You need slower growing plants in the middle. And some smaller ones in the front. 

To my taste that is like 1/2 of how much I would plant my tank to outcompete algae. And maximum 5 hrs of light until co2 is present.

When co2 is ready, try estimative index dosing method and weekly 50% water changes. 8hrs of light.

Later, when things are doing fine, you can adjust to less dosing and less water changes if you like.

Again, this is what I would do. There is may ways to go to Rome.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

Yes two canisters. can i get a spray bar for the fluval? 

Probably don't need powerhead... Probably don't need 2 canisters.. I had intended on replacing the small one w the big one but now worried about not having enough circulation. The outlet of the smaller one is lower, helping to circulate the water at the bottom of the tank. The powerhead is helping with surface agitation on that side of the tank, and is also churning up the CO2 bubbles. You think i should take out the powerhead and get a diffuser?


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

mommabear1007 said:


> Yes two canisters. can i get a spray bar for the fluval?
> 
> Probably don't need powerhead... Probably don't need 2 canisters.. I had intended on replacing the small one w the big one but now worried about not having enough circulation. The outlet of the smaller one is lower, helping to circulate the water at the bottom of the tank. The powerhead is helping with surface agitation on that side of the tank, and is also churning up the CO2 bubbles. You think i should take out the powerhead and get a diffuser?


Oh, well... If its already there... Keep it that way and observe without any changes for two weeks. 

The powerhead gives you Good surface movement right?


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

I must not have read all of your post before I replied to it. 

Thank you for saying it looked better  I still have a long way to go, I know. Yes those are background plants. Not sure if I will keep the ludwiga when I get replacements. I like the cabomba as "bushes".. I will just have to trim it often. I was thinking maybe a moss wall for the background. Also thinking annubias and java fern to put on the wood. Along with some moss. But not sure about what else to get. Do you know of any other plants that would look jungle-ly? Hydro pinnatifida and xmas moss were suggested to me. Do you think I have enough light for a carpeting plant? I'm sure i could pull of dwarf sag but i dunno about glosso or dwarf hairgrass or HC. 

CO2 is working, now, after mysteriously being turned off. I've been doing EI for a few weeks. 8 hours of light. 

And yes the powerhead gives good surface movement.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Just see if it's working by observing the tank for a couple of weeks.

Your set up is a bit different from what people usually do. If doesn't work, try something that has worked for others.

As for plants, it would be easier and cheaper to ask H4N (seller) to send you what he think is going to fit your needs as a starter pack. He has a lot of plants for real cheap and is very generous.


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

wow just browsed through your journal. Not really sure what your goal was when you first started but I feel bad for you and wish I had seen this sooner. Impressed that you are sticking with it. Check out my old journal for my 29 gallon HERE this doesn't even show how this tank looked when I first started out but you get the idea. There is a link in my signature for what the tank looks like now. As well as journals for my other tanks. 

Personally for beginner I recommend low light to medium light/low tech set ups. A little late for that now since you already have all this equipment but oh well. With the light you have, you are definitely in high light territory, so it is a good thing you got the CO2 system. 

With high light and CO2 you should be able to grow carpeting plants. Cryptocoryne species are pretty easy jungle looking plants. They come in different colors and sizes. 

I'm amazed that running two canisters on this tank isn't creating a huge torrent knocking over all your plants. I would definitely recommend spray bars. You can make your own pretty easily. I made a short one with a bit of siphon hose and a check valve as a cap on the end. You can make better ones with PVC.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

pejerrey said:


> Just see if it's working by observing the tank for a couple of weeks.
> 
> Your set up is a bit different from what people usually do. If doesn't work, try something that has worked for others.
> 
> As for plants, it would be easier and cheaper to ask H4N (seller) to send you what he think is going to fit your needs as a starter pack. He has a lot of plants for real cheap and is very generous.


What do you mean mine is set up differently? If what, specifically, doesn't work? 

I will try asking h4n soon. i saw he sold a drop checker too i think. how important do you think it is that i get a drop checker and a test kit? i know some people say they test after every water change. others seem to just watch their plants and fish. i don't know that i'm experienced enough to just watch - to know what to watch for. on the other hand i would rather not spend $ on a test kit and drop checker if i didn't have to.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

kamikazi said:


> wow just browsed through your journal. Not really sure what your goal was when you first started but I feel bad for you and wish I had seen this sooner. Impressed that you are sticking with it. Check out my old journal for my 29 gallon HERE this doesn't even show how this tank looked when I first started out but you get the idea. There is a link in my signature for what the tank looks like now. As well as journals for my other tanks.
> 
> Personally for beginner I recommend low light to medium light/low tech set ups. A little late for that now since you already have all this equipment but oh well. With the light you have, you are definitely in high light territory, so it is a good thing you got the CO2 system.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what my goal was either  I knew I wanted plants but had no idea the things you could do with them and obviously didn't even know what they needed. But thanks. It's been trying at times but I've just put too much into this to back out now. I will definitely check out your journals when I get more time. 

You think I have high light? Someone wouldnt even sell me plants because he said the plants he had required more light than what I had! I've read the stickies in the lighting sections and a few articles here and there and I can't seem to figure out whether my light is high or medium. The light fixture I have didn't have a PAR reading in the sticky.  

It's a good bit of circulation but not knocking anything over. Things seem to need to be rooted well before they stay where I put them tho. But that might be because of the substrate too. I've also caught my angel picking at them and uprooting them. My plants dance in the current... it kind of makes me happy  I didn't originally plan on having 2 but now i'm afraid of messing something up by taking the 2nd one out. 

I'm not sure that i'm crafty enough to make my own spray bar. I will have to look into that tho


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

mommabear1007 said:


> I'm not sure what my goal was either  I knew I wanted plants but had no idea the things you could do with them and obviously didn't even know what they needed. But thanks. It's been trying at times but I've just put too much into this to back out now. I will definitely check out your journals when I get more time.
> 
> You think I have high light? Someone wouldnt even sell me plants because he said the plants he had required more light than what I had! I've read the stickies in the lighting sections and a few articles here and there and I can't seem to figure out whether my light is high or medium. The light fixture I have didn't have a PAR reading in the sticky.
> 
> ...


I go by Hoppy's yellow/gray chart in THIS THREAD. A standard 29 gallon tank is 18 3/4 inches tall it looks like your lights are about 4 inches above the water surface. You have a dual t5HO so that puts you into high light. 

If stem plants can stay put and not bend over like crazy you are probably fine. my angels always ripped apart my stringy stems. Wisteria withstood them, alternanthera does well with them. Hygro pintanada or whatever seems to hold up well with them. 

All you need is the right size tubing/pipe (the size will depend on your outputs), something for a cap on the far end, and a drill with various size bits.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

Aha.. I see where you're getting that at now. 

Nice tanks.. I like the look of having plants grow out of your tank that I've been seeing. I may try that someday. I like the viney plant over your lights too


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

mommabear1007 said:


> Aha.. I see where you're getting that at now.
> 
> Nice tanks.. I like the look of having plants grow out of your tank that I've been seeing. I may try that someday. I like the viney plant over your lights too


The vine plant is commonly called pothos, and a few other names. I use to have it growing out of the tank, but the roots starting going everywhere so I removed it and now have it growing out of a small bowl on top of the tank.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Is different because of the position of your outlets mostly. I didn't say doesn't work. Just watch your tank.

I personally don't believe in drop checkers nor any way of measuring co2 besides observing your plant/algae growth and livestock for suffocation symptoms. I always inject as much as I can safely, and If I have to adjust the needle vale I make sure to be around for hrs to watch the livestock behavior. 

A for a test kit, get the GH/KH if your tap doesn't have enough GH. If you are dosing EI and doing 50% water changes weekly, testing is over ruled.
But, if you want to know what is going on and be able to tell what is off then get API freshwater master test kit and the GH/KH test kit.

Do you want to know what is in your water source? I think it will be handy to know what is in there to start. There is places that have up to 20ppm of no3 already.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

ive been reading about household plants and that pothos one is one of 10 that is great for removing toxins from your indoor air. i wouldn't be able to put it anywhere inside where it would get enough light, i don't believe. i did get a peace lily and a spider plant today (also good for removing toxins). i'm excited to have them. funny cuz i had a peace lily in the tank when i first started and didn't know it wasnt aquatic. it melted and i tossed it. wish i would've kept it. its quite beautiful. 



kamikazi said:


> The vine plant is commonly called pothos, and a few other names. I use to have it growing out of the tank, but the roots starting going everywhere so I removed it and now have it growing out of a small bowl on top of the tank.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

because the one outlet is at the bottom? or because they're on the back? i've moved them to the sides. 

thanks for the backup.  i probably won't get a test kit or drop checker. i have enough GH but use the booster anyway since i've started injecting CO2. and yes i saw my city's water report not too long ago. nothing of concern there. 



pejerrey said:


> Is different because of the position of your outlets mostly. I didn't say doesn't work. Just watch your tank.
> 
> I personally don't believe in drop checkers nor any way of measuring co2 besides observing your plant/algae growth and livestock for suffocation symptoms. I always inject as much as I can safely, and If I have to adjust the needle vale I make sure to be around for hrs to watch the livestock behavior.
> 
> ...


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

growth. doing pretty well except still some BBA on ludwiga and on some of the hydrocotyle and whatever that is (bacopa something?) in the middle.. i keep snipping off the infected leaves.. i'm not sure if the ludwiga will survive but we'll see.


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## TheBigSleep (Aug 28, 2012)

mommabear1007 said:


> and whatever that is (bacopa something?) in the middle..


Might that be Cardamine? I've got a little clump of the stuff that hitchhiked into my tank & took forever to identify, it looks similar to what you have


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

i dont think we're talking about the same plant. i'm talking about the one right next to it. i think the one you're talking about is this one


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

Just wanted to post some pics before and after the trim. Waiting on plants to come today hopefully to fill in the spaces. I decided not to keep the ludwiga since I couldn't seem to get the bba off of it. I don't really like it for the look I'm going for anyway. I don't really like the limnophilia for the look I'm going for either, but I do really like that plant. Both the unaffected ludwiga and the extra limnophilia went home to a lone plant in a 10 gallon (which looks much better now, and the fish are much happier). 

Waiting on fissidens, glosso, dwarf baby tears, c. balansae, and persicaria kawagoeanum.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Looking good healthy!

careful with taking out so much plant volume (IMO) because of throwing things out of balance. Now you have about 2/3 of the plant mass.

You could have planted some trimmings back in there right? 

If you took them out because try were getting BBA. Then what is probably going to happen now is that the BBA is going to start growing in any other surface in that area. The cause (imo) is the light without enough co2 in that section of the tank for plants to outcompete algae. So taking out the plants is going to give algae more prevalence.

What about floaters? If you can't increase the co2 or lower light intensity then they would shade some areas. At least one third of my main tank is covered with frogbit and others.

It's looking good, congrats!

What is your temperature?
What is the minimum temperature your livestock can handle? Colder water retains gasses better, like co2 and o2. Therefore less effort to provide them.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

The new plants are in. I wouldn't have removed so much if I didn't expect to have at least that many put back in very soon.

I had the BBA before i added co2. I took everything out, dipped in an extremely mild h2o2 solution, trimmed as much bba-affected leaves and stems as i could, then replanted the same day the co2 was added. I continued to snip as much bba as i could, replanting the trimmings. it kept forming on the lower parts of the ludwiga - nothing else. finally decided it was more effort than it was worth and just ordered more plants, and yanked the old ones out, thinking that the bba problem should correct itself now that there's co2. 

lo and behold i remove the plants and notice bba is starting on the driftwood. i started to spot treat today with excel, 1 ml at a time, and figure i will do that every day to different areas until (hopefully) it goes away. im afraid to increase co2 any more, it's at 2-3bps already. fish seem fine but don't wanna risk it. although i might. 

the other thing about the co2 is that every time i do a WC, i push the timer back 30mins-hr since i just flip the power strip off. I fixed it today so that it comes on a half hour before the lights come on and stays on till a half hour after they're off. for the past few weeks, it had been coming on half hour after the lights came on and staying on an hour after the lights were off. so hopefully this will help. 

yesterday i noticed the temp was low - 72 or so. i increased it and it's at about 76 now. apparently they can handle 72, you think i should leave it that way? i thought fish were healthier with warmer temps. 

floaters don't float in my tank. i had tried a handful or so of a few different ones and they just collect in the back left corner and get caught in all that equipment. try as i might to keep them out of that corner, i couldn't, eventually they all died off.  i do have some moss and dwarf baby tears now that i will attach to the driftwood that will hopefully use up the light that the bba is using.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

i feel like updating. 

moss is a b*tch to plant. 

took the DW out twice and wrapped string around the tiny pieces of fissidens. the 2nd time most of it is still in place but i'll be surprised if it survives since there's more string than moss. some of the moss is already covered in black hair algae. :/ i tried to wrap the d. baby tears around the arch with the string as well. it stayed for a week or so but i need to try to find it and attach it again. 

i now know for future reference to dry start with both moss and d. baby tears to get them going. also know to secure DW before securing plants since i couldn't get it back the way i wanted it. not that i liked it much where it was before. 

glosso is starting to grow in the areas that aren't completely shaded by the other hydrocoytle and limnophilia. i really like that plant although i'm starting to wish i had tried dwarf sag again instead since i wanted it to carpet and it's growing up instead of out and not at all where it's shaded. 

persicaria kawagoeanum seems to be growing in well. i'm excited for it to grow. 

hydrocoytle and limnophilia and bacopa carolinia are doing impressively well. 

pre trim pics:


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

i want to take the arch out, maybe all of the DW out, scrub the BBA off and then try to grow the fissidens and baby tears emersed. can i do that? what type of light would i need? would i need to fertilize them or just mist with water?


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Congratulations! 

There is a huge difference from this:









To this:









I'm really glad to see how things are going!


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

thanks!  still not crazy about the design but i'm still proud of myself. my eyes always widen a bit when i go through this journal and see how things have progressed and what the plants have turned in to:


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

completely unrelated but read this and thought it was interesting.. 

http://mom.me/parenting/education/l...best-kid-inventions-history/item/18830-param/

(#8 if it doesn't link directly)


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## crazydaz (Mar 18, 2007)

As well as you should be, MB!! This hobby is ALL about small victories! That's some excellent progress!!


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

I just read through most of this thread and I think your tank is great! I think you've done an excellent job.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

thanks to both of you! 

i don't know what it is but i just dont like this tank. 

my 10 gal at home i barely tried at all and i like that one. it's simple. 

but this, ugh. 

maybe i feel like it should look a lot better after all the work, money, and time i have in it. or maybe it's the opposite. maybe i only like the 10 gal because it's barely any work or time or money. 

and i don't know what needs done to this one to get it to where i like it. i don't like the plants or the wood for the look i want. i don't really like the look i want, lol..

i feel a rescape coming with time but for now it is what it is.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

I can be the same way sometimes - I don't like it, but I can't tell ya' why. I've gotten so much inspiration from this forum, so looking at others' pics has really helped me decide what I DO like. 

Good luck!


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

yes this site is an awesome source of inspiration. 

recreating.. not so awesome for me haha


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

took the DW out of the one side, moved some of it to the left side.. 
looking better, but i really need to find a replacement for the hydrocoytle. just don't like it. having difficulty shaping the limnophilia the way I want it. i really love that plant but not sure it works with the forest thing. maybe i'll give up the forest thing and replace the DW with lucky bamboo and go for an asian thing. im not really sure where that plant grows naturally, but it makes me think of asia. 

the black beard algae has diminished quite a bit. i dosed it with h2o2 during a WC when the water level was low, let it sit, then filled it back up. i did that for two weeks in a row. i also took a deep breath, and set the timer so that the lights take a lunch break for about an hour. its still there, but hardly noticeable. a bit of diatoms, or something that looks like diatoms still shows up here and there, and i've been seeing green spot algae on the plants and the glass but it doesn't seem to be overtaking the tank, so, im not too worried about it. 

i definitely want to put a path with the river rocks that i originally had in this tank in between the limnophilia. i need to figure out a way to move the substrate and keep it moved, so if i don't like it, i won't have to try to pick the rocks out of the eco complete. i've seen people use plexi glass and landscaping trimming, but they attached it to the bottom of the tank when it was still dry. is there a way to do this with water in it? other suggestions?


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

Removed most of the DW and removed the persicaria kawagoeanum and hydrocoytle. I don't think it looked right, athough I liked them... 

Plant list: limnophilia, few patches of glosso, one c. parva, one c balansae, and fissidens on the arch. Not sure how long the balansae is going to last.. i think i would prefer a c. parva carpet as opposed to a glosso carpet. 

I think once it grows in, it will look alright. 

The photoperiod is as follows: on 3, off 2, on 4.. seems to be helping with the BBA issue, quite a bit. 

I'd like to put the rock path under the arch and spreading out in the front of the tank. I'm not sure how to put it in there. Has anyone ever separated the substrates while there was water in the tank?? i don't know how to keep the barrier in place. the only thing i can think is to put the bag of rocks in the middle of the two barriers and slowly kind of shake the rocks out, does this make sense?

anyone know how to change a title of a thread?


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## CoffeeLove (Oct 31, 2012)

Tank is looking sweet! Glad to see I'm not the only one who likes serpae tetra either! They're cool little fish. People say they harass other fish but I haven't noticed that but maybe it's because I have mostly tetra in my tank. I saw a bloodfin chasing a serpae actually.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

hmmmm i haven't heard that. i haven't noticed it, either, but then again, the only other fish is the angel and she isn't one to mess with.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

When i first started this, people would come in and get this weird look on their face.. Not entirely disgusted, but just kind of a "....da fuq??" Look. Now people look at it and their eyes widen a bit... Not entirely impressed, but just sort of fascinated. Now i know this tank isnt going to win awards or anything, im just proud that i stuck to it. Every other hobby ive had got forgotten about or i just gave up because it was too hard or i didn't put the time or practice into it that it needed. Even when i was sure i would never get it, i would never figure it out, i stuck to it anyway and finally have something to enjoy, to be proud of. Thanks to everyone here who helped me out and have advice and kind words. Couldn't have done it without you  

It still has a bit of bba and gda, but it is manageable. I think i figured out how to put the rock path in it, its just a matter of getting around to it. The plants are doing great. Except the glosso, i don't think i can keep the limnophilia trimmed enough to allow for enough light for them. I think i might try to find some more c. Parva instead. 

I guess that's it


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Nice turnaround!!


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

why thank you


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

Getting pretty fed up with the BBA. There are also spots of GDA on the glass, which are annoying, but not nearly as annoying as the BBA. I cut it all out, clean the filters, change the water, and sure enough, next week, it's all over the plants again.  I've tried putting some h2o2 on it during the water change, I've tried putting excel on it during the water change. Wondering if maybe the spores are still everywhere and if a UV sterilizer might help??? The last thing I want is more equipment in this tank but I am soooooooo sick of the BBA


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

Haven't updated this is in awhile so here goes. 

I think there is something wrong with the co2 regulator (which is probably why the bba is taking over), its been suggested to me to increase the working pressure and adjust the needle valve and if that doesn't work to put a second valve inline. So that's where I'm at with that. 

I put a screen over the light to try to discourage the bba, and it worked, but the plants are leggy. I haven't changed the dosing schedule either and not sure if I should? I keep changing the water once a week ~50% so shouldn't hurt anything just seems unnecessary.

I want to do two things: 

1.) remove the 2nd, smaller filter. It doesn't disconnect correctly and its a real PITA to clean now. it's also overkill as my main concern was circulation, but there is a powerhead next to it (i'm diffusing the co2 through it) so it really doesn't need to be there. i was thinking of slowly removing the media piece by piece over time so that the sudden removal of bacteria wouldn't be such a shock, but I also kinda wanted to use it in the 10 gallon at home, and therefor don't want to throw the bacteria away... so not sure how to go about doing that... AND...

2.) i want to add more fish. right now there is one angel and 5 red minor tetras and I would like to add 5 more red minor tetras and 10 or 15 neon tetras but I don't know if that would be too much. I also don't know that I should remove the 2nd filter if I add so many fish. I wouldn't add them all at once, obviously... but don't know if i should...


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

What is the temperature?
Proper aeration?


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## Nami (Apr 15, 2013)

You're really brave for sticking it out this long! I've always been scared of plants but am just starting to do this myself.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

pejerrey said:


> What is the temperature?
> Proper aeration?


temp 80 :/ i've turned the heater down
very good surface movement, yes


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

Nami said:


> You're really brave for sticking it out this long! I've always been scared of plants but am just starting to do this myself.


thanks! but i don't know if brave is a good word. I'd say stubborn  i've invested too much to quit. 

you've come to the right place, there is loads of info and helpful, knowledgeable people here. you can do it! if there's anything i've learned its: do the research FIRST, or you will have a lot more work in the long run!


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Shorten your photoperiod then. I know u are hard headed about that! 

How many hrs is now?


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

pejerrey said:


> Shorten your photoperiod then. I know u are hard headed about that!
> 
> How many hrs is now?


8, but on for 4, off 2, on 4. i can't shorten the period any more now that i've added the screen, the plants are struggling. growing slowly, not near as thick, and they've gotten really leggy. i've actually considered lessening the break. 

i did end up cutting three lines in the screen to add a bit more light. 

and the increase in the working pressure seemed to stabilize the bps rate (but its only been one day) so hopefully that problem is fixed and i can bring the light back to normal. i will probably do that slowly though.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

what is ideal temp?


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

Holy cheese. 

Those plants were much worse than I thought. I went to trim them, moved some around to fill in a gap, ended up removing probably 35% of the plants. At least. They're looking rough. I removed the screen completely. 

Maybe I would prefer the BBA :/


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## 10gallonplanted (Oct 31, 2010)

78-76 is a temp I like.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

What I would do:

Keep ur tank about 70F with no screen for the lights but no more than 6hrs on total. 

Tropical tanks are way more complex to upkeep.


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## mommabear1007 (Nov 8, 2011)

ok, ill try it..

the bps rate was down again


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