# "Mowing the lawn" Gloss, hair grass, HC etc



## plantbrain

This is a simple method and the regrowth and labor are far better for foreground ground covers than the older uproot and replant the tops type of methods. 

Amano has long shown folks how to do this carefully. But.....many do not see/look at these lessons I suppose. Like many hobbyists, we often just let the rug grow......and grow.........and like the bean stalk.........the rug pulls off or gets so large we no longer find it aesthetically pleasing.

Gloss is a classic weedy foreground plant. HC is as well. Care needs to be given when trimming it down.........but it's fairly easy to mow a good sized area fairly quick, then net up the left over leaves that float to the surface.

Prior to trimming:










A few minutes after the trim:









1 Week later:









New growth is tight, small and rapidly filling in.
This only took me maybe 5 min to trim and 2-3 min to net up the leaves.

Not a horrid tale of nightmarish intense trim sessions weekly...........
Curved scissors are nice to trim accurately, particularly for the smaller and more delicate species like HC. For well rooted foreground plants like Crypt(yes, you can mow these down, the root crowns will resprout) or Starougyne, larger utility type scissors work or fingers.










You can see how low I trim the foreground plants, this way they keep that nice low cover. I sell the tops etc........in 2-3 weeks, the new growth fills in and it's honestly not that much work/labor. I would never do this if I had to do the old dutch style of uprooting and replanting only the tops.
The tank also would not look nice or recover fast. Most of the time, I'd be waiting for the growth to fill back in, for the plants to send down roots etc.

This also reduces the mess made when trimming. 

Hope this helps.


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## TactusMortus

How quickly would say a crypt parva foreground grow back if you were to trim it out of curiosity?


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## plantbrain

TactusMortus said:


> How quickly would say a crypt parva foreground grow back if you were to trim it out of curiosity?


Maybe 4-8 weeks.


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## TactusMortus

What would be the purpose of trimming? Just to promote more compact growth?


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## ghotifish

Thanks so much for your helpful post. Your plants look amazing! 

Thanks for all your contributions to the art!


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## plantbrain

TactusMortus said:


> What would be the purpose of trimming? Just to promote more compact growth?


That, plus to keep the plants nice and low and in their proper place,s maybe algae attacked the leaves due to neglect, maybe to clean up the ugly leaves that where initially emergent. There's likely a few more good reasons to tend it this way.

Here's some examples from AFA's tanks:

Hair grass in particular I have mowed for many years, decades even. This keeps the grass nice and clean, moss, Riccia, Cladophora etc........detritus..........all this stuff gets in it. The belem type is greart since I do not even need to trim it for height..........I just lightly vacuum or use an electric rotary toothbrush to pull u any algae, moss etc.

This is a pic from AFA, a LFS in SF that also trims to the bone:










Mowed HC:









2-4 weeks later:









So it's not just myself etc, it's mostly ADA that is suggesting this method, and they do show these methods and others....a great deal, just folks tend to squabble over the other things and do not listen to what good advice they do offer on scaping and basic horticulture.

Then the ADA vendors try to teach and spread this information also(AFA and ADG both do this actively), but folks squabble over the cost, ship, Penac and the like, and miss the larger picture that helps the hobby.


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## Alyssa

Thank you for sharing Tom! That helps to give me a good visual! In the first pic, is that ADA soil?


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## orchidman

thanks tom! this is really a good visual! i need to get some curved scissors!


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## Couesfanatic

That last tank is awesome. Have you ever trimmed E Belem anyway? I am curious to see what it would do.


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## freph

Amazing writeup...very descriptive.  Also, I know there are several varieties of "curved" scissors out there (nude, wave, etc.). Which one is the best for trimming HC?


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## Centromochlus

Tom, how do you get your Staurogyne repens to grow tall like that? It seems like regardless of whether mine is in high or low light, it always stays extremely close to the substrate, making it a pain to trim!

Any info?


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## SpecialEffect

Might me a dumb question.. but...

When you trim glosso elatinoides... they tend to grow fairly quickly... Is it better to just uproot, cut, then replant both peices?
Or better to always trim till its 2cm above substrate and then throw the other peices out?

trying to grow a nice glosso carpet (i spoke to you already!)


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## fuzz_16

whatre the plants to the left and right of the glosso? the spiny looking critters?

and you use a long blade or short?


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## [email protected]

Can I just have a hi-res photo of your tank please. With a shot from both sides and above. I'll glue it behind the glass and quit trying to grow anything. Maybe if I print it on high gloss I can even eliminate the tank. 

That is one fine looking tank, before or after. The details are just to tease me of course.


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## IWANNAGOFAST

Since you're answering questions... 
For starou, what do you do when the old bottom leaves are already ratty? I know to trim so they don't get to that state but what if they already are? Should I just trim and replant the tops in this case?


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## jaival

hey folks, 

which is the plant in between two red plants ? the bright green with curvy leaves ?


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## [email protected]

> Since you're answering questions...


I took the name out as I don't want to pick on anyone. 

Plantbrain has several thousand posts here. He can probably answer your questions 24/7/365 if you ask the right question - because he probably already has answered it. 
There is a nifty Search feature on this forum. 
I did a quick search using plantbrain and staurogyne which returned 23 posts. 

Using Google you can search posts dating back to when he was a grad student and the internet was young. 
A lot of what we're discussing today, was being discussed by grad students when the internet mostly connected only colleges and universities.

Rant off.


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## jkan0228

IWANNAGOFAST said:


> Since you're answering questions...
> For starou, what do you do when the old bottom leaves are already ratty? I know to trim so they don't get to that state but what if they already are? Should I just trim and replant the tops in this case?


To add on that, will bare stems still shoot out new leaves? Do you ever replant?


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## HypnoticAquatic

jkan0228 said:


> To add on that, will bare stems still shoot out new leaves? Do you ever replant?


 some stems dont like to regrow if cut all the way to the roots, normally you should never have to cut it that low as most stems or plants in general will fair much much better with at least a few nodes to do photosynthesis with out those they have to work so much harder an sometimes cant recover thus this is when you replant the tops if its been that long or neglected as the root mass can only hold so much stored energy to regrow. also if the said plant gets root bound to where it can not grow anymore due to its size and overcrowding then yes its a good idea to replant then just like most general plant care.


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## plantbrain

Alyssa said:


> Thank you for sharing Tom! That helps to give me a good visual! In the first pic, is that ADA soil?


All the tanks are ADA aqua soil amazonia actually.
Nice unlike sand caps and inert sediments or mixed layers......since it's nice and soft and does not harm scissors when you trim to the nub.



Couesfanatic said:


> That last tank is awesome. Have you ever trimmed E Belem anyway? I am curious to see what it would do.


Yep, but it really does not get much more than 1", it does get filled with moss, Riccia and dirt etc, so mowing it real low and cleaning it that way, will help encourage nice new growth and clean the rug up good. 

Sometimes we slack and get algae..........this method allows us to clean things up and get rid of infected leaves etc, ratty deficient leaves etc.

Fear not, if you focus on plant growth, it will grow back nicely.



AzFishKid said:


> Tom, how do you get your Staurogyne repens to grow tall like that? It seems like regardless of whether mine is in high or low light, it always stays extremely close to the substrate, making it a pain to trim!
> 
> Any info?


Intraspecific competition, it'll mound up and pack in very thick and tight. I just thin it or mow like the above example if I let it go more than 2-3 weeks past a schedule hacking.


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## Centromochlus

plantbrain said:


> Intraspecific competition, it'll mound up and pack in very thick and tight. I just thin it or mow like the above example if I let it go more than 2-3 weeks past a schedule hacking.


So are you saying that if i let my carpet fill in really tight, it'll eventually start growing vertically because all of the stems are competing for light?
Might be worth trying out... it sure does look a lot easier to trim when it grows vertically like that.


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## plantbrain

SpecialEffect said:


> Might me a dumb question.. but...
> 
> When you trim glosso elatinoides... they tend to grow fairly quickly... Is it better to just uproot, cut, then replant both peices?
> Or better to always trim till its 2cm above substrate and then throw the other peices out?
> 
> trying to grow a nice glosso carpet (i spoke to you already!)


Well, that's the main issue and why I posted this. You can trim and toss out the left overs........like I have in the exmaple, and recovery is FAR better........so your scape will look nice and be nice more time.....without waiting a long time for the weed to grow back in, and it makes less mess of the ADA aqua soil also.

If you want to sell the plant..then uprooting might be better.

There's a 3 rd option also: trim the central area and leave the edges where it's thinner and then cut off any escapee runners.....then sell or use those elsewhere.



[email protected] said:


> Can I just have a hi-res photo of your tank please. With a shot from both sides and above. I'll glue it behind the glass and quit trying to grow anything. Maybe if I print it on high gloss I can even eliminate the tank.
> 
> That is one fine looking tank, before or after. The details are just to tease me of course.


It's got weeks(10-20?) more work to be done and my R macrandra is just starting to grow well, so that is at least one big fat group.

I have not grown that plant in years actually.
It'll look nice in here.

But....along the way, I can maintain and trim things and illustrate them for folks. ADA, ADG, Frank are you out there? Have been strong advocates of this.........I've already nagged ad nauesum about silly things like Penac, but I think much of their main focvus is more about scaping and keeping it lookign nice. 

Many think that ADA tanks cannot be kept that way for 5-1o years, they can be. 

This is good craftsmanship/care.

I'm not into it 24/7 and other things come up in our lives........so I'm actively gardening this tank right now...........this tank requires more methods to maintain the plant growths, so it's a good learning and teaching tool.

The style of the scape may be different than ADA....but much is similar.



IWANNAGOFAST said:


> Since you're answering questions...
> For starou, what do you do when the old bottom leaves are already ratty? I know to trim so they don't get to that state but what if they already are? Should I just trim and replant the tops in this case?


Starougye repens is an interesting species, it'll allocate resources only to the new growth.

So no sense in trying to save the old ratty bottoms, the stem will sprout a new tip and that new growth will be nice. The old leaf is nothing but a nutrient source for the new growth and the plant does not even try to defend it, many species of aquatic plants follow this pattern.

If the plant had long lived leves, say like Pinus longaeva........has leaves that are 25 years old or near that.......they are loaded with resins and anti herbivory agents, they protect their leaves, fast growing weeds?

Why bother?

Easier to grow a new shoot.

Same with Starougyne and most foreground cover.

So mow it......., Crypts also do this via "Crypt melt", I hardly EVER hear of this mystery "disease" as it was once called back 20-30 years ago..........folks have come along way growing plants.

No sense in trying to save a covered mangled leaf or one buried under 4-5 other leaves and is not adding anything to the plant overall.



jaival said:


> hey folks,
> 
> which is the plant in between two red plants ? the bright green with curvy leaves ?


Downoi, P helfeni.



[email protected] said:


> I took the name out as I don't want to pick on anyone.
> 
> Plantbrain has several thousand posts here. He can probably answer your questions 24/7/365 if you ask the right question - because he probably already has answered it.
> There is a nifty Search feature on this forum.
> I did a quick search using plantbrain and staurogyne which returned 23 posts.
> 
> Using Google you can search posts dating back to when he was a grad student and the internet was young.
> A lot of what we're discussing today, was being discussed by grad students when the internet mostly connected only colleges and universities.
> 
> Rant off.


I STILL am a grad student.
Hopefully....... not this time next year.


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## IWANNAGOFAST

plantbrain said:


> Starougye repens is an interesting species, it'll allocate resources only to the new growth.
> 
> So no sense in trying to save the old ratty bottoms, the stem will sprout a new tip and that new growth will be nice. The old leaf is nothing but a nutrient source for the new growth and the plant does not even try to defend it, many species of aquatic plants follow this pattern.
> 
> If the plant had long lived leves, say like Pinus longaeva........has leaves that are 25 years old or near that.......they are loaded with resins and anti herbivory agents, they protect their leaves, fast growing weeds?
> 
> Why bother?
> 
> Easier to grow a new shoot.
> 
> Same with Starougyne and most foreground cover.
> 
> So mow it......., Crypts also do this via "Crypt melt", I hardly EVER hear of this mystery "disease" as it was once called back 20-30 years ago..........folks have come along way growing plants.
> 
> No sense in trying to save a covered mangled leaf or one buried under 4-5 other leaves and is not adding anything to the plant overall.


Ok cool, I remember you telling me this last saturday. So instead of trying to save those ratty leaves at the bottom, I should trim the tops and replant those? Or just trim off the ratty leaves. I don't want to leave bare stalks.


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## plantbrain

HypnoticAquatic said:


> some stems dont like to regrow if cut all the way to the roots, normally you should never have to cut it that low as most stems or plants in general will fair much much better with at least a few nodes to do photosynthesis with out those they have to work so much harder an sometimes cant recover thus this is when you replant the tops if its been that long or neglected as the root mass can only hold so much stored energy to regrow. also if the said plant gets root bound to where it can not grow anymore due to its size and overcrowding then yes its a good idea to replant then just like most general plant care.


True, as far as horticulture, we might want to cut some stem plants a little bit below the viewer's eye level to promote branching and regrowth, and NOT see the "stumps" we just trimmed.

This works well if there's a bushy midground plant or a hardscape that hides the ratty looking stumps or lower sections.

The lower leaves do not offer much help to the plant so if if you trim them low and leave only a few ragged old leaves that have not had much....if any lighting.........they will often get algae and hopefully resprout a new tip.

This is also a function of being close/farther away from the light, as well as nutrient status of the upper vs lower leaves. This is whole plant allocation.
This is not discussed much in research nor done much, but for many crops and agriculture, it's REALLY important for obvious financial reasons. 

How does a plant decide when to forgo a leaf? When? What about Autofragmentation in aquatic plants??

These are cool questions.



AzFishKid said:


> So are you saying that if i let my carpet fill in really tight, it'll eventually start growing vertically because all of the stems are competing for light?
> Might be worth trying out... it sure does look a lot easier to trim when it grows vertically like that.


Yep, it'll just start piling on top of itself. You need to give it room and time.
It's not picky about light.



IWANNAGOFAST said:


> Ok cool, I remember you telling me this last saturday. So instead of trying to save those ratty leaves at the bottom, I should trim the tops and replant those? Or just trim off the ratty leaves. I don't want to leave bare stalks.


Well, you can do all of these methods actually and end up at the same place.

I just leave the leaves(I'm lazy..or smart, likely a mix of both).........and the stumps, they will resprout and fill in real well in a couple of weeks from now.

You can trim to the nub, those stumps will definitely regrow and give a nice thin tight layer initially. Just like the Gloss example.


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## HypnoticAquatic

plantbrain said:


> True, as far as horticulture, we might want to cut some stem plants a little bit below the viewer's eye level to promote branching and regrowth, and NOT see the "stumps" we just trimmed.
> 
> This works well if there's a bushy midground plant or a hardscape that hides the ratty looking stumps or lower sections.
> 
> The lower leaves do not offer much help to the plant so if if you trim them low and leave only a few ragged old leaves that have not had much....if any lighting.........they will often get algae and hopefully resprout a new tip.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> right but if there bottom leaves are not damaged there should be a faster regrowth just like how yours is trimmed in the pic, those bottom leaves are in good shape and still funtion for the plant(if not i doubt yourself would keep them)but if they look ratty and decaying then yes they actually are slowing the growth down for basiclly any plant as it will try an heal and fix the damage. thats all my point was so its just a basic judgement call if its healthy or not.


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## orchidman

why not just have the S. repens stems be low growing and not have to worry about trimming?


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## plantbrain

HypnoticAquatic said:


> plantbrain said:
> 
> 
> 
> True, as far as horticulture, we might want to cut some stem plants a little bit below the viewer's eye level to promote branching and regrowth, and NOT see the "stumps" we just trimmed.
> 
> This works well if there's a bushy midground plant or a hardscape that hides the ratty looking stumps or lower sections.
> 
> The lower leaves do not offer much help to the plant so if if you trim them low and leave only a few ragged old leaves that have not had much....if any lighting.........they will often get algae and hopefully resprout a new tip.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> right but if there bottom leaves are not damaged there should be a faster regrowth just like how yours is trimmed in the pic, those bottom leaves are in good shape and still funtion for the plant(if not i doubt yourself would keep them)but if they look ratty and decaying then yes they actually are slowing the growth down for basiclly any plant as it will try an heal and fix the damage. thats all my point was so its just a basic judgement call if its healthy or not.
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes it's hard for folks to tell and say if they should cut of leave them.
> 
> Try it one way once, then the other later.
> Then see which you prefer.
> 
> I'm not sure which is better depending on the plant species and the condition.
> After awhile, I'll let the plants over grow real well, then uproot and trim mostly with stems, but rarely with foreground weeds like Gloss etc, this thread is mostly for those weedy foreground plants.
> 
> But it's cool to extend to stems and other weeds
Click to expand...


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## HypnoticAquatic

orchidman said:


> why not just have the S. repens stems be low growing and not have to worry about trimming?


 this is because any plant left unmaintained will just become a mess and in time will basicly smother parts of itself out ex. bottom leafs falling off due to lack of light, cirulation, build up of debris thus compounding problems.
so just simple trimming an maintance will keep plants much more healthy an grow faster! 
every plant even low growing hc will grow ontop of itself there is a youtube video of some kids tank where its close to 2inch tall from never being trimmed so its all if you want your tank to look show status being manacured or not. 
if you do want it to say looking like it is then simple manacuring of the plant will be needed just like how u care an shape a bonzai tree they dont grow like that naturally do they? nope it actually can take several years to make a tree into a bonzai tree just like our scapes take time to trim and shape to desired effect. hope it helps ya understand it a lil more.


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## orchidman

ahh thanks for clearing that up! i want thinking about maintaining the plant, only thinking about getting the heigh and look we wanted


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## Robert H

> How quickly would say a crypt parva foreground grow back if you were to trim it out of curiosity?
> Maybe 4-8 weeks.


Cryp parva? Are you serious? Parva is one of the slowest growing plants there is. Makes Anubias look like a weed! It can go months without growing an inch! And how do you trim it anyway- its a *rosette* plant not a stem plant. If you trim the leaves off there is nothing left!


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## jaafaman

Robert H said:


> ...how do you trim it anyway- its a *rosette* plant not a stem plant. If you trim the leaves off there is nothing left!


Nothing save the rhizome itself.

And as mentioned, trimming doesn't seem to affect Crypts to any greater degree than transplant shock or "melt" where all the leaves are lost with predictable frequency - more like to a much lesser degree as the roots and some form of carbohydrate storage are already in place. Nutrient absorption and carbohydrate production can then readily ramp up as the new leaves appear.

It just happens on a more relaxed scale with Parva than with, say, wendtii...


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## Mxx

Are there decent carpeting plants which don't however require trimming to work well and look attractive? 

(It's a little against my Darwinian laissez faire natural philosophy to actively intervene in this way, and do things like intensively managing stem plants by constantly topping and tailing them).


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## nonconductive

Mxx said:


> Are there decent carpeting plants which don't however require trimming to work well and look attractive?
> 
> (It's a little against my Darwinian laissez faire natural philosophy to actively intervene in this way, and do things like intensively managing stem plants by constantly topping and tailing them).


marsilea's


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## TactusMortus

Robert H said:


> Cryp parva? Are you serious? Parva is one of the slowest growing plants there is. Makes Anubias look like a weed! It can go months without growing an inch! And how do you trim it anyway- its a *rosette* plant not a stem plant. If you trim the leaves off there is nothing left!


I don't believe this at all I get 1-2 leaves a week from every one of my parva plants. I think whatever your growing conditions are you are not giving it what it needs. Are you speaking from experience or just what others have said? Parva is not as slow growing as most people make it out to be my anubias grow far slower.


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## plantbrain

HypnoticAquatic said:


> this is because any plant left unmaintained will just become a mess and in time will basicly smother parts of itself out ex. bottom leafs falling off due to lack of light, cirulation, build up of debris thus compounding problems.
> so just simple trimming an maintance will keep plants much more healthy an grow faster!
> every plant even low growing hc will grow ontop of itself there is a youtube video of some kids tank where its close to 2inch tall from never being trimmed so its all if you want your tank to look show status being manacured or not.
> if you do want it to say looking like it is then simple manacuring of the plant will be needed just like how u care an shape a bonzai tree they dont grow like that naturally do they? nope it actually can take several years to make a tree into a bonzai tree just like our scapes take time to trim and shape to desired effect. hope it helps ya understand it a lil more.


While many do not trim, I agree with good trimming care for plants, they really do better over time and they biomass stays the same relatively in such tanks(more consistent CO2 uptake and fert uptake etc).
The Bonsai example is a good one, takes many years to torture the tree into the shape and form we desire. Weeds? a few weeks:tongue:



Robert H said:


> Cryp parva? Are you serious? Parva is one of the slowest growing plants there is. Makes Anubias look like a weed! It can go months without growing an inch! And how do you trim it anyway- its a *rosette* plant not a stem plant. If you trim the leaves off there is nothing left!


I've trimmed it a few times like this, always grew back nicely for me and the client's. If there is ample traces and CO2, it should grow reasonably well.



Mxx said:


> Are there decent carpeting plants which don't however require trimming to work well and look attractive?
> 
> (It's a little against my Darwinian laissez faire natural philosophy to actively intervene in this way, and do things like intensively managing stem plants by constantly topping and tailing them).


Belem hairgrass is another.

That and the clover are both excellent low care foreground plants if you can them free of algae and mosses etc.


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## Robert H

> I don't believe this at all I get 1-2 leaves a week from every one of my parva plants. I think whatever your growing conditions are you are not giving it what it needs. Are you speaking from experience or just what others have said? Parva is not as slow growing as most people make it out to be my anubias grow far slower.


Sorry, I disagree. I used to grow plants for a living, and for 30 years C. parva has had a notorious reputation for being an extremely slow grower. If you cut it back to the rhizome it might show signs of new growth in a few weeks, but full grown leaves? Highly doubtful. I want to see photos! Willissi, which looks very much like Parva grows much faster. Look in the Plant profile of This web site, and you will see it is listed as having a "slow" growth rate, and the comments from others. One of the pictures in the profile is mine.

Phil Edwards of the Aquatic Gardeners Association, and a friend of Tom, got so frustrated trying to grow the plant in a high tech tank that he gave up on it. He wrote a chronology about it on my web site a few years ago. (Its no longer there)

Florida aquatic nurseries who supplies 90% of all the plants in stores in this country, started growing the plant in mass production just a couple years ago. They grow it in pots ABOVE water hydroponically in order to grow it fast enough to sell. Its a cool plant, and fairly easy to grow, but its SLOW.

Here is more references

Aquatic Plant Central data base



> As mentioned above, C. parva grows very slowly, something that does not change even under ideal conditions. Unlike most Cryptocoryne spp., it requires a fair amount of light. To some degree, it will lose its desirable low growth and will grow even more slowly than normal under lighting considered adequate for related species. The addition of ample carbon dioxide and root fertilization benefits growth considerably. In addition, C. parva seems to need a good deal of both iron and potassium to look its best. Without both, it is susceptible to chlorotic and pinhole-riddled leaves.


And George Farmer, one of the leading authorities in the UK

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=2715



> How to grow it
> It will grow in lower lighting conditions if provided with good nutrients, but expect incredibly slow growth. It does well in warmer water, making it suitable for low-maintenance planted Discus tanks.


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## Francis Xavier

plantbrain said:


> It's got weeks(10-20?) more work to be done and my R macrandra is just starting to grow well, so that is at least one big fat group.
> 
> I have not grown that plant in years actually.
> It'll look nice in here.
> 
> But....along the way, I can maintain and trim things and illustrate them for folks. ADA, ADG, Frank are you out there? Have been strong advocates of this.........I've already nagged ad nauesum about silly things like Penac, but I think much of their main focvus is more about scaping and keeping it lookign nice.
> 
> Many think that ADA tanks cannot be kept that way for 5-1o years, they can be.
> 
> This is good craftsmanship/care.
> 
> I'm not into it 24/7 and other things come up in our lives........so I'm actively gardening this tank right now...........this tank requires more methods to maintain the plant growths, so it's a good learning and teaching tool.
> 
> The style of the scape may be different than ADA....but much is similar.


I was just sitting back and reading for a while!

But to emphasize the point - you want to trim your carpets with decisive fervor, and not do it half-heartedly. Trim all the way to the base of the plants and you'll, as Tom posted, get tighter, cleaner smaller growth.

We've gotten really busy - so we missed the prime photo shoot / video opportunity for the 60-P (which is all hair grass), and it was at the 'overgrown,' point of the layout, so just this past Monday I trimmed everything in the tank down to the base of the plant. It's already growing back with clean growth. 

This ensures a more even carpet across the whole base of the layout.

Otherwise, just letting the plants grow actually results in a collapse of the ecosystem within the aquarium. Think of it like the fruit fly experiment in High School. You put a pack of fruit fly eggs into a vial with some food and wait. and wait. The fruit flies get to the point where they are thriving and they perfectly sustain themselves - however, they continue to grow and reproduce and don't stop until there is absolutely nothing left in the system except the dead carcasses of fruit flies. 

It's the same thing with plants - to keep them free of algae, to keep the ecosystem on a micro and macro level stable and consistent, it's a good idea to trim the plants back.

The ideal state of a planted tank, is when the plants in the layout "sparkle," which they literally do kind of sparkle (silly sounding I know), but once you achieve this with a tank you will understand what I mean. This doesn't occur in overgrown systems - it just has a look of decay about it by comparison.


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## houseofcards

Overall I think the trimming in general is something most don't do enough. Getting in there for a few minutes a day or every other day makes a big difference in the way a tank presents.


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## Robert H

> Otherwise, just letting the plants grow actually results in a collapse of the ecosystem within the aquarium. Think of it like the fruit fly experiment in High School. You put a pack of fruit fly eggs into a vial with some food and wait. and wait. The fruit flies get to the point where they are thriving and they perfectly sustain themselves - however, they continue to grow and reproduce and don't stop until there is absolutely nothing left in the system except the dead carcasses of fruit flies.


I think that is true depending on the growth rate of the plant and the amount of time it takes for the plant to recover. I don't think you can make a blanket statement like that for all plants, particularly Cryptocorynes and others who may go into shock. I am much more comfortable thinning out a bed of plants than a total buzz cut to the substrate. Stem plants can recover pretty quickly and the cutting of stems often trigger new growth, but a rosette plant that relies on the rhizome or tuber to spur new growth is riskier. If the bare rhizome gets damaged or anaerobic its done.

I will give you another example: Lilaeopsis brasiliensis. Considered by most to be relatively slow growing and VERY light demanding. It takes a lot of patience and careful attention to get a nice thick "lawn" of this plant, and the last thing I would want to do after several months of work is to cut it back to nothing and start over. Hairgrass is easy because it spreads and grows fairly quickly.


----------



## Francis Xavier

Yes, true enough but there are few enough exceptions as to where the blanket statement is possible. I am merely talking of carpet plants exclusively - where the vast majority of staples benefit the most from a trimming to the base. If we want to argue over minutiae, then a quick bullet point list to mention is to just list the ones you mentioned as exceptions, don't do this to crypts, etc. Crypts are a beast entirely on their own for demands. Of course, this is also not to confuse the actual e. tennellus with what is commonly thought of as microsword, as e. tennellus benefits greatly from a trimming to the stem directly and benefits enormously from such. 

The vast majority of staple stems also benefit greatly from a regular trimming.

Trimming is actually one of the hardest aspects of the planted aquarium - and specifically they are a huge part of cultivating a planted aquascape. You have to guide and direct the growth in a very specific way to achieve the vision you want. Plants will not randomly grow into the perfect layout and it takes a lot of practice with trimming.

But, there is a huge gap in mindset between horticulturalists and aquascapers in this hobby - with a few who overlap the two worlds. I for example don't care much about a singular plant being particularly rare or the like, I care more about how it fits into the aquascape and how to grow it properly from there and what I can do to shape it's growth to fit the idea I want. Where as others may just not care about the aquascaping part at all and geek over a plant simply because it is rare or they just want to grow it to grow it. One isn't right and the other isn't wrong, but it does warrant mentioning the presence of this difference in mindset. 

Either way, given enough time and without any counterbalancing forces, any living organism will destroy it's own environment via it's own over-expansion.


----------



## Church

Robert H said:


> I will give you another example: Lilaeopsis brasiliensis. Considered by most to be relatively slow growing and VERY light demanding. It takes a lot of patience and careful attention to get a nice thick "lawn" of this plant, and the last thing I would want to do after several months of work is to cut it back to nothing and start over.


This is, in fact, the _only _way I grow my lilaeopsis. I have tried letting it grow on its own without touching it, and I have mowed it frequently. It prefers to be mowed, in my experience. I think people who say lilaeopsis doesn't grow fast are people who don't mow it. It comes in thicker, faster, and with shorter blades, after each mowing.

Just my experience, that's all.


----------



## TactusMortus

Robert H said:


> Sorry, I disagree. I used to grow plants for a living, and for 30 years C. parva has had a notorious reputation for being an extremely slow grower. If you cut it back to the rhizome it might show signs of new growth in a few weeks, but full grown leaves? Highly doubtful. I want to see photos! Willissi, which looks very much like Parva grows much faster. Look in the Plant profile of This web site, and you will see it is listed as having a "slow" growth rate, and the comments from others. One of the pictures in the profile is mine.
> 
> Phil Edwards of the Aquatic Gardeners Association, and a friend of Tom, got so frustrated trying to grow the plant in a high tech tank that he gave up on it. He wrote a chronology about it on my web site a few years ago. (Its no longer there)
> 
> Florida aquatic nurseries who supplies 90% of all the plants in stores in this country, started growing the plant in mass production just a couple years ago. They grow it in pots ABOVE water hydroponically in order to grow it fast enough to sell. Its a cool plant, and fairly easy to grow, but its SLOW.
> 
> Here is more references
> 
> Aquatic Plant Central data base
> 
> 
> 
> And George Farmer, one of the leading authorities in the UK
> 
> http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=2715


You can throw all the evidence in the world at me but I am going to have to go with my own experience as I gaze over at my tank full of parva that started from 12 pots and is nearly 25 pots deep now. I have personally witnessed 1-2 new leaves on every plant in my tank since Tom recommended dosing more micros only a week and a half ago. I see no reason why it wouldn't sprout 6-8 leaves in 8 weeks time as he suggested.

You say you want photo proof well I have that as well.


















This is over the period of 8 weeks exactly prime example if you ask me of how parva is indeed not that slow of a grower. Keep in mind these plants also stared out as emersed plants straight from aquatic plant nurseries so they would have likely spread even more if they did not have to make the transition.


----------



## Gatekeeper

Trim Crypt parva? What? Did I misread this or was this misunderstood?


----------



## Jeff5614

I'm seeing conflicting opinions on whether I should trim my Lilaeopsis mauritiana. Any others with experience on trimming that particular plant or any species of Lilaeopsis?


----------



## TactusMortus

Jeff5614 said:


> I'm seeing conflicting opinions on whether I should trim my Lilaeopsis mauritiana. Any others with experience on trimming that particular plant or any species of Lilaeopsis?


I know one of the most beautiful lilaeopsis maritiana carpets I have ever seen in one of laurelleeb or something like thats tank. I don't think she ever trimmed or atleast the pages I read on her thread about it led me to believe she never trimmed it.

Oh and thought I should mention I am not going to be trimming my crypt parva back anytime soon. However if I had a major algae outbreak I could see myself trimming it back.


----------



## plantbrain

Francis Xavier said:


> I was just sitting back and reading for a while!
> 
> But to emphasize the point - you want to trim your carpets with decisive fervor, and not do it half-heartedly. Trim all the way to the base of the plants and you'll, as Tom posted, get tighter, cleaner smaller growth.
> 
> We've gotten really busy - so we missed the prime photo shoot / video opportunity for the 60-P (which is all hair grass), and it was at the 'overgrown,' point of the layout, so just this past Monday I trimmed everything in the tank down to the base of the plant. It's already growing back with clean growth.
> 
> This ensures a more even carpet across the whole base of the layout.
> 
> Otherwise, just letting the plants grow actually results in a collapse of the ecosystem within the aquarium. Think of it like the fruit fly experiment in High School. You put a pack of fruit fly eggs into a vial with some food and wait. and wait. The fruit flies get to the point where they are thriving and they perfectly sustain themselves - however, they continue to grow and reproduce and don't stop until there is absolutely nothing left in the system except the dead carcasses of fruit flies.
> 
> It's the same thing with plants - to keep them free of algae, to keep the ecosystem on a micro and macro level stable and consistent, it's a good idea to trim the plants back.
> 
> The ideal state of a planted tank, is when the plants in the layout "sparkle," which they literally do kind of sparkle (silly sounding I know), but once you achieve this with a tank you will understand what I mean. This doesn't occur in overgrown systems - it just has a look of decay about it by comparison.


These are things that many hobbyists and newbies really are VERY UNSURE about and the habits are good for the soul if they start on them right away, and......their friends will be jealous.........

I think many enter into the hobby with the idea of gardening nice planted tanks, then get side tracked often times with other issues.

I've just seen one too many ratty foreground planted tanks I guess.
They had a great tank, but this ratty Gloss.



Church said:


> This is, in fact, the _only _way I grow my lilaeopsis. I have tried letting it grow on its own without touching it, and I have mowed it frequently. It prefers to be mowed, in my experience. I think people who say lilaeopsis doesn't grow fast are people who don't mow it. It comes in thicker, faster, and with shorter blades, after each mowing.
> 
> Just my experience, that's all.


Ditto, I've seen it get mowed at AFA a few times and the result was the same.
If you can grow the plant well, then mowing is not a bad method, if not? well, then pick your leaves one by one:biggrin::icon_lol:

This why both being a good grower and a good trimmer helps.
You have less fear about aggressive trimming because that weed will simply grow back meaner than before.

The 120 Gal example is a good tank for this reason, it uses many species, some rare, some not so rare.........in terms of species, it's more complicated than what I normally do. 

So are the trimming methods.

But it's not huge amount of work, I am just consistent on keeping on top of the tank and trying different things.

So changing things around also is a MYTH when using ADA soil and layouts, because I've been doing it nearly every week, but only a group to three etc at a time each week.......but still........yea, my water is a tad hazy after for 2-3 days, bu that goes away.

Some of these plants I've grown in the past, but some are plants I've not grown in many years. So it's fun to hack them back and see their responses.



Gatekeeper said:


> Trim Crypt parva? What? Did I misread this or was this misunderstood?


Done it a few times now. Dang client had a CO2 issue and BBA on the leaves, mowed it and it ended up looking like this a few months later:










That was enough to convince me.

FYI, Jan Bastmeijer trims ALL the leaves off his crypts and then ships, these leaves will melt anyway, so you have the roots, the crown etc, but no leaves. These sprout and grow back fairly quick if you give them happy homes.



TactusMortus said:


> Oh and thought I should mention I am not going to be trimming my crypt parva back anytime soon. However if I had a major algae outbreak I could see myself trimming it back.


C parva rarely needs to be trimmed, otherwise, it can be done for the algae etc issues.

It does not keep getting taller nor piles on itself much, it took a year before it got super thick in the client's 450 Gal.

The more typical weedier crypts, mow them! They will not stop growing.


----------



## TactusMortus

You have any pictures of how densely that 450 gallon parva carpet was planted intially?


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## Robert H

Sorry TactusMortus, but I do not see a huge amount of growth of your parva from one photo to the next, each photo looks pretty much the same to me. Go ahead, cut every parva plant down to the rhizome with no leaves left. I dare you!



> Trim Crypt parva? What? Did I misread this or was this misunderstood?


Yes Glenn. They are trimming parva down to the rhizome :icon_eek: :icon_wink



> FYI, Jan Bastmeijer trims ALL the leaves off his crypts and then ships, these leaves will melt anyway, so you have the roots, the crown etc, but no leaves. These sprout and grow back fairly quick if you give them happy homes.


True, but he ships rare Cryps that do not even grow in an aquarium, and his clients are advanced Cryp collectors like you Tom. His goal is to grow a single rhizome in a pot above water under special conditions to flower, not aquascaping an aquarium. And we are talking about PARVA, not all Cryps in general!



> This is, in fact, the only way I grow my lilaeopsis. I have tried letting it grow on its own without touching it, and I have mowed it frequently. It prefers to be mowed, in my experience. I think people who say lilaeopsis doesn't grow fast are people who don't mow it. It comes in thicker, faster, and with shorter blades, after each mowing.


There is a difference between mowing, cutting it shorter, and cutting it all the way down to the roots leaving no leaves at all. I trim mine all the time too, but not down to the crown.

Are we talking about the same Lilaeopsis specie? There is a HUGE difference between mauritiana and brasiliensis. Brasiliensis is the slow grower. Mauritiana grows much faster and is much less light demanding. It is still a fairly new plant to the hobby, only discovered about three years ago. Brasiliensis has been around for ever, and is much harder to grow.



> C parva rarely needs to be trimmed, otherwise, it can be done for the algae etc issues.
> 
> It does not keep getting taller nor piles on itself much, it took a year before it got super thick in the client's 450 Gal.


Well that sounds a little more reasonable!


----------



## Church

Robert, the only kinds of lilaeopsis I've grown are L. brasiliensis and L. macloviana. Mowing them down to the substrate has always worked for both species, for me. I'll try to find some pictures. I know I've got some somewhere...


----------



## Gatekeeper

There is a difference between pruning, mowing and grooming. I have never in my experience, ever heard of "mowing parva". 

Pruning to remove algae covered leaves or removing dead matter is a more reasonable assertion. The use of the word "mowing" is leading me to believe that you are claiming you can cut the parva along the petiole and it will regenerate growth like a stem plant would. Cutting a perfectly good parva plant leaf off seems counter productive!

It takes so long to grow those leaves! Why would you want to cut them off!


----------



## Church

Could we all be talking semantics here? I mean, when I say mow I think of it like mowing the lawn. You don't _shave_ the lawn and leave no leaf behind. You're cutting them all low down to the ground, but there are visible blades of grass. So when I say mow, others might think of it as simply trimming.

I don't see how you could trim rosette plants any lower than the substrate though, where the rosette actually is... the scissors cut above the substrate line, not below it, so won't there always remain a visible part of the cut leaves or petioles?

Once again, I'm speaking for lilaeopsis, not parva. Here are a few crappy pics that show how I mow:


10-26-09 (planted for 3 weeks, never mowed):












11-04-09 (just mowed):











11-23-09 (~3 weeks later):


----------



## TactusMortus

Hah, no offense Robert H but I am going to go out on a limb here and say you have read about Parva and have never actually grown it yourself. If you had this wouldn't be a discussion we would be having. It is indeed a slow grower one of the slowest crypts I have. However it grows far faster then any of my anubias. As for not seeing any growth from the pictures it is the plant that is in the foreground. If you do not see it growing and spreading from the FTS alone. I have to respectively ask you to get your vision checked! :icon_bigg Also like I mentioned I am not going to be trimming mine however I do believe that in 8 weeks time after trimming you would see a lot of good growth from parva. Like Tom said he did it himself. So you are saying me and him are liars and you have to be correct because you read some articles that said it was an extremely slow grower? Lets start speaking from experience and not just opinion.:icon_mrgr



Robert H said:


> Sorry TactusMortus, but I do not see a huge amount of growth of your parva from one photo to the next, each photo looks pretty much the same to me. Go ahead, cut every parva plant down to the rhizome with no leaves left. I dare you!
> 
> 
> 
> Yes Glenn. They are trimming parva down to the rhizome :icon_eek: :icon_wink
> 
> 
> 
> True, but he ships rare Cryps that do not even grow in an aquarium, and his clients are advanced Cryp collectors like you Tom. His goal is to grow a single rhizome in a pot above water under special conditions to flower, not aquascaping an aquarium. And we are talking about PARVA, not all Cryps in general!
> 
> 
> 
> There is a difference between mowing, cutting it shorter, and cutting it all the way down to the roots leaving no leaves at all. I trim mine all the time too, but not down to the crown.
> 
> Are we talking about the same Lilaeopsis specie? There is a HUGE difference between mauritiana and brasiliensis. Brasiliensis is the slow grower. Mauritiana grows much faster and is much less light demanding. It is still a fairly new plant to the hobby, only discovered about three years ago. Brasiliensis has been around for ever, and is much harder to grow.
> 
> 
> 
> Well that sounds a little more reasonable!


----------



## houseofcards

Fast growing fields of shimmering Parva and a kaleidoscope of brilliant colors in lowlight. Please get me a ticket for this magic carpet ride!


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## TactusMortus

houseofcards said:


> Fast growing fields of shimmering Parva and a kaleidoscope of brilliant colors in lowlight. Please get me a ticket for this magic carpet ride!


No one ever said it was fast growing just not nearly as slow as some suggest. I displayed my own photo proof. When you can display your own photo proof get back to me. Keep in mind I did say "your own photo proof". Otherwise your clever little comments offer nothing to this thread. We all think we are funny and clever sometimes we need a reality check, here is yours.

Upon a quick search of the thread I found this interesting post. Where this member announced that FAN was going to be carrying parva. He also made the following statement.

"They also tell me this cultivated version grows a little faster than the imported plants." Robert H

Which i think might have to do with the confusion on growing rate. Maybe some have the slower growing strain.

Here is a link to the thread:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/plants/96303-new-mass-produced-cryps.html


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## tetranewbie

plantbrain said:


> Belem hairgrass is another.
> 
> That and the clover are both excellent low care foreground plants if you can them free of algae and mosses etc.


 
Going back a little bit in the discussion, is this ^ to say that you shouldn't trim clover? Or just that it's not as needed as with some pickier plants?

Also- what about UG, do you trim/mow it? 

And how often do you do this?


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## houseofcards

TactusMortus said:


> No one ever said it was fast growing just not nearly as slow as some suggest. I displayed my own photo proof. When you can display your own photo proof get back to me. Keep in mind I did say "your own photo proof". Otherwise your clever little comments offer nothing to this thread. We all think we are funny and clever sometimes we need a reality check, here is yours.


Telling Robert H to get has vision checked and your comments here don't exactly go along with the spirit of the forum. I believe I can make comments that are light-hearted and add a bit of humor to the situation as many do in many threads, especially when it relates to my experience with the plant.


----------



## TactusMortus

That is why I put the smile face there so he understood that I wasn't trying to attack him or anything. It was a joke I am sure he is not going to go get his vision checked because I said so. We were not having anything but a debate on parva. Your comment added nothing to the discussion nor was it humorous.


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## Bahugo

TactusMortus said:


> That is why I put the smile face there so he understood that I wasn't trying to attack him or anything. It was a joke I am sure he is not going to go get his vision checked because I said so. We were not having anything but a debate on parva. Your comment added nothing to the discussion nor was it humorous.


Yet another thread derailed because of arrogance. Tactus, you should probably add more details about your time line your pictures could be very misleading, the whole front of your tank isn't even parva:



TactusMortus said:


> What's what


And in another post you added this comment: 



TactusMortus said:


> Thanks! It only took 12 pots of parva. I have around another 12 on the way. I am not the most patient person.


If it is indeed growing as quickly as you are barking about, then why in the world would you need too order another 12 pots? 

I have crypt parva emersed and previously submersed, it is not a quick growing plant by any means. 

______________________________________________ 
______________________________________________
Back on topic though: 

Trimming glosso leaves down too the runners (sniping the leaves off) works great, I have done it in the past and the new leaves that grew in were much more compact and neat looking. It also fills back in considerably quick.


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## TactusMortus

I received in the mail another 12 pots it came in this past friday I haven't had time to plant a single one yet, so that is irrevelant. However just as I said in the post I am impatient. Like I said it is not a fast grower I never said that. I said it is faster then some are making it out to be it does produce a few new leaves every week. I even said it is the slowest rowing out of all my crypts just not as slow as anubias. It doesn't take two years to grow out like some are suggesting. However as you said back to the topic at hand. I am done with this thread some people have a hard time understanding the difference between it is not that slow to it is growing at lighting fast speeds.


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## houseofcards

If you want to talk about "photo proof" yours leaves alot to be desired. You first posted your parva background on 8/25/11. By 9/18/11 you hadn't even planted the left foregound with the stuff you had some other larger crypts there, but by 10/24/11 that area that was just planted on 9/18/11 is the thickest and the area that was planted on 8/25/11 doesn't look that much different.


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## TactusMortus

Look houseofcards I hope there are no hard feelings I am moving on. I am going to take a few photos now of one plant all by itself and track it's growth progress. We can discuss when that time comes. However lets just agree to disagree for now. I do want to make clear that I never said that parva was a fast grower though. I simply said it is not as painfully slow in my experience as some make it out to be.


----------



## plantbrain

houseofcards said:


> Fast growing fields of shimmering Parva and a kaleidoscope of brilliant colors in lowlight. Please get me a ticket for this magic carpet ride!


Not a fast grower like say Gloss, but.........Crypts, including this one, can be mowed with BETTER results, than say the alternative.................which is uprooting the plants and trimmign each individual leaf off that's errant etc and then replanting it.

Why? Takes a longer time for Crypts ........more than weedy foreground plants to recover from uprooting. Crypt growers are well aware of this. the cut plants will resprout nice clean new leaves not long after trimming. It's not something folks would do like they might for Gloss, which is a far more weedy plant, but......they can still do it if needed for C parva. 

Gloss unlike Crypt parva will pile on itself aggressively. I agree there's not a great deal of need horticulturally, unless algae etc. Still, it recovers much faster using THIS method, than the uproot method. 

I've made several large foregrounds with and good sized groups over the years. If you are reluctant, then simply do not trim it:wink:
If you have decent growth rates and it's got emergent grown leaves that have algae, mow it.

Recovery is not nearly as bad as many seem to be making it out to be.
I could say the same argument about gloss grown in a poor environment also.
Happy C. parva does in fact recover fairly reasonably. Squabbling over this one minor species aspect is HARDLY the point of the OP and the topic here however.



TactusMortus said:


> Look houseofcards I hope there are no hard feelings I am moving on. I am going to take a few photos now of one plant all by itself and track it's growth progress. We can discuss when that time comes. However lets just agree to disagree for now. I do want to make clear that I never said that parva was a fast grower though. I simply said it is not as painfully slow in my experience as some make it out to be.


Well, uprooting Crypts generally leads to a long recovery time also, so without having done this trim method themselves, they have little to compare to.
Do not talk the talk, walk walk. Then you know.

Try it and trim yourself. So cough those pics and the results up to show the problem if you disagree. This method works well for me for most all carpeting species, including E tennellus as well.



plantbrain said:


> Done it a few times now. Dang client had a CO2 issue and BBA on the leaves, mowed it and it ended up looking like this a few months later:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That was enough to convince me.
> 
> FYI, Jan Bastmeijer trims ALL the leaves off his crypts and then ships, these leaves will melt anyway, so you have the roots, the crown etc, but no leaves. These sprout and grow back fairly quick if you give them happy homes.


This is about 3-4 months after a Trim.

Each rhizome will send up a leaf in about 2 weeks and then a new one thereafter at this rate, since there are MANY rhizomes in a well established foreground......this is not as terrible as many seem to think.
Heck, the plants do in fact grow back and look nice when they do.

Tell folks what, disprove the method for this plant, show me that is takes years to replace it, not a few weeks/2-3 months.

You NEED a well established foreground plant 1st though.

This is that same gloss lawn and mere 1.5 weeks after the full mow to the nub.











Also note, the shallow depth that the foreground plants are growing in.


----------



## talontsiawd

Sorry, I didn't read the whole thread. Trimming down to the substrate is the way to go with so many plants. People get scared, it will grow back. With certain plants, when done consistently, it actually makes it grow more compact, an added bonus. 

I never got why people get scared, they say they spend so much time growing their carpet out, well, that means it is healthy and will only get better.


----------



## oldpunk78

Well... I just mowed down my E. Belem. 

Thanks Tom!


----------



## Chafire

Mowed my Ludwigia as well, looking forward to the results.


----------



## charpark

As someone asked earlier, what about UG? Hasn't been specifically addressed, am curious since it's a different kind of foreground plant. Same mow method?


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## plantbrain

charpark said:


> As someone asked earlier, what about UG? Hasn't been specifically addressed, am curious since it's a different kind of foreground plant. Same mow method?


I'm trying that now, most have NOT mowed it from what I have gathered, this might be due to fear or other reasons.

I took 1/2 the rug and left it, then uprooted and added plugs to one side, I'll be trimming and mowing the UG lawn next to see. It's a funny plant. 

I'll compare and contrast from there. Since it grows slower compared to Gloss and we are uprooting for the test also, the comparison will take longer (4-8 weeks). If the mow method looks and regrows faster........I see no reason why not.....then I'll adopt that method of trimming and suggest that.



Chafire said:


> Mowed my Ludwigia as well, looking forward to the results.


I've done this with the Red Ludwigia, but the L perunesis seems to do better uprooted and then the tops replanted.

R wallichii seems to do better uprooted with new tops replanted.

14 days since trim











So what about riccia stones and moss stones?

These require good trimming to stay this way over time.
Moss will attach fairly well over time.

Some folks use the retie method.
Simply after 8-10 weeks, when the growth has expanded too much, you pull the stones up and retie them. Some pull all the plants off and then tie, I think it's easier to simply rewrap them with string before they get too far gone.

This tends to be a LOT OF WORK.
So Gloss is much easier overall, than Riccia etc.

Riccia also ends up in EVERYTHING, can become as bad as algae to get rid if not worse. Same with moss.


----------



## houseofcards

I actually think Riccia gets a bad rap. Most simply don't know how to maintenance a tank with it. Since it doesn't attach to anything and it's a floater, turning off your filter and shaking plants, etc will bring most of it to the surface. The rest can be removed either during a water change with a 1/2" tube or with a tweezer. Also if it's attached to stone, much easier to remove the stone, trim and replace. Even if a few pieces remain so what, it's not really visible or hurting anything like algae.

Had it in this tank for year's without issue:


----------



## plantbrain

houseofcards said:


> I actually think Riccia gets a bad rap. Most simply don't know how to maintenance a tank with it. Since it doesn't attach to anything and it's a floater, turning off your filter and shaking plants, etc will bring most of it to the surface. The rest can be removed either during a water change with a 1/2" tube or with a tweezer. Also if it's attached to stone, much easier to remove the stone, trim and replace. Even if a few pieces remain so what, it's not really visible or hurting anything like algae.
> 
> Had it in this tank for year's without issue:


Yes, if you trim it consistently..........same deal with Gloss I think also, if folks trim it consistently, it's less work.

Many folks end up NOT trimming these plants and letting them go to pot.
Then they end up uprooting or having to retie things and that's a big PITA many folks simply lack to the on going motivation for, a few good snips with scissors and 5-10 min or trim and post netting, it's not bad.










If I had a lot more area to cover, well, then it's a longer job obviously.........still, Riccia is EXCELLENT since recovery is almost immediate and in a week.......you cannot even tell.

Riccia is also not a bad seller.

The sinking dark form where the Riccia smashes its aerenchyma is a nuisance.
No pretty bright green, not pearling and a bear to remove from other plants etc.


----------



## houseofcards

plantbrain said:


> Yes, if you trim it consistently..........same deal with Gloss I think also, if folks trim it consistently, it's less work.
> 
> Many folks end up NOT trimming these plants and letting them go to pot.
> Then they end up uprooting or having to retie things and that's a big PITA many folks simply lack to the on going motivation for, a few good snips with scissors and 5-10 min or trim and post netting, it's not bad.


I totally agree. Ongoing trimming is easy, fun and so beneficial. A 10-minute tiddy does wonders.


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## orchidman

i love riccia! the look of it is really awesome!


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## charpark

plantbrain said:


> I'm trying that now, most have NOT mowed it from what I have gathered, this might be due to fear or other reasons.
> 
> I took 1/2 the rug and left it, then uprooted and added plugs to one side, I'll be trimming and mowing the UG lawn next to see. It's a funny plant.
> 
> I'll compare and contrast from there. Since it grows slower compared to Gloss and we are uprooting for the test also, the comparison will take longer (4-8 weeks). If the mow method looks and regrows faster........I see no reason why not.....then I'll adopt that method of trimming and suggest that.


Please please tell us your findings! Think this type of experiment is difficult for the avg person both from time and money so would appreciate the insight. 

Also been considering riccia rocks as discussed. Using the hairnet/loofa method...if you were to trim frequently can you go indefinitely without retieing? Since it never attaches like moss I would think that you can go longer without retieing but at some point would still need to.


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## plantbrain

charpark said:


> Please please tell us your findings! Think this type of experiment is difficult for the avg person both from time and money so would appreciate the insight.
> 
> Also been considering riccia rocks as discussed. Using the hairnet/loofa method...if you were to trim frequently can you go indefinitely without retieing? Since it never attaches like moss I would think that you can go longer without retieing but at some point would still need to.


I'm not fond of the hair net, I suggested it years ago, but blah.....not tight like fishing line.

Another method was to mix Xmas moss and if the Riccia pulled off, there was always some retained in the moss, which aggressively attaches, Riccia really does not. Not the worse, nor the best look over time IME.


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## idex

Mowing worked well for my UG, it grew back thicker. Only did it once so far.


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## tetranewbie

Does this "mowing" also apply for DSM? I.e. should you only mow when the plant is submerged or would it work with emersed growth as well? 

Thanks!


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## houseofcards

plantbrain said:


> I'm not fond of the hair net, I suggested it years ago, but blah.....not tight like fishing line...


Really surprised. Always more than one way to do these things, but for Riccia hairnet is my preferred method. Much neater and holds everything in place better from the get go. It also allows for more uniform coverage right away. If you use dark brown, black hairnet it also disappears into the hardscape your placing it on, not like the loofer method. The hairnet also can be twisted and tied on the bottom to get a snug fit.


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## plantbrain

houseofcards said:


> Really surprised. Always more than one way to do these things, but for Riccia hairnet is my preferred method. Much neater and holds everything in place better from the get go. It also allows for more uniform coverage right away. If you use dark brown, black hairnet it also disappears into the hardscape your placing it on, not like the loofer method. The hairnet also can be twisted and tied on the bottom to get a snug fit.


The twisting and tying would help. The hair nets are also good become they do not cut into the thalli as much as a fishing line.

I might give it another try, but was not too fond vs the look and results with the fishing line, but......if it works well, it works.



idex said:


> Mowing worked well for my UG, it grew back thicker. Only did it once so far.


Good to know.



tetranewbie said:


> Does this "mowing" also apply for DSM? I.e. should you only mow when the plant is submerged or would it work with emersed growth as well?
> 
> Thanks!


DSM can be mowed, but the main point to get decent growth, thick etc, then fill the tank. But sometimes spots will grow more than others.


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## plantbrain

4 weeks later after the mow.











Dense, thick and managed well.
So once a month mowing would be a typical routine.

I could mow it today....but I'll wait another week or two. So now it's just a matter of repeating this same process.

Different foreground weeds will grow at different rates, but they are similar in the care.


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## Dollface

Yes, you can 'mow' UG. It will respond in basically the same way as hairgrass. I'd go as far to say that it should be mowed even more aggressively because of its tendency to pile on top of itself much like HC.


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## CmLaracy

I need to mow my HC and I find it nearly impossible with straight scissors... and leaving the roots and clipping the clovers doesnt just cause the root systems to rot?


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## Francis Xavier

No, just leaving the roots will be fine. It'll grow back great! I know first time is a little nerve racking.

You need curved scissors for easiest foreground trims.


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## plantbrain

Good curved scissors are key to much of the mowing. Also, left an d right handed trimming is required to gte many spots, which can be learned........but takes some getting use to if you are clumsy.


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## tetranewbie

Dollface - did you "mow" or trim your emmersed grown UG?


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## Dollface

tetranewbie said:


> Dollface - did you "mow" or trim your emmersed grown UG?


No. The emersed form has much more compact growth, I had sections of my farm growing for almost a year that never reached the point where it would need to be trimmed.


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## plantbrain

Dollface said:


> No. The emersed form has much more compact growth, I had sections of my farm growing for almost a year that never reached the point where it would need to be trimmed.


I've done a hybrid method of uprooting and replanting the plugs, then trimming it and keeping down that way, the mound has/had gotten a bit too loose.

This worked pretty good, about 4 weeks later, it's formed a nice rug.
Much faster than the initial planting(8-10 weeks).


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## tetranewbie

Thanks guys!


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## astrosag

Tom, I'm wondering if you can help me help my tank....

I've got wisteria, crypt parva and bronze wendtii. I'd like to know, in particular, if trimming crypt parva and bronze wendtii helps propagate the plant and if so, how you would recommend trimming down.

The wisteria grows crazy and I'm not sure how exactly to trim it down. I'd prefer it to be more stubby and bushy but its rather long and tall with large leaves in the top. 

Any help is appreciated!


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## doonie

Thank you for the post. I mowed my Glosso two weeks ago after seeing this post and it started to spread faster, and thicker. Now it needs to be mowed again. I lowered my CO2 levels and plan on raising my light in hopes that it will stop this from growing like a weed.

If any one wants a for ground plant that grows fast and spreads fast Glossostigma is for you.


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## Realistik84

Tom,
I dont want to seem like a Thread Hijacker, but am starting a 65G next month. It is a 24" High tank, with Dual T5 Fixture.  Will be Flourite with gravel on top. 

I am really wanting to do a full carpet of either DHG, Glosso, or Microsword. After going through this experiment, would yoyu suggest I plant with prior to adding water, having the lighting go for some time, trimming, and adding water down the line? Or am I missing something.


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## plantbrain

astrosag said:


> Tom, I'm wondering if you can help me help my tank....
> 
> I've got wisteria, crypt parva and bronze wendtii. I'd like to know, in particular, if trimming crypt parva and bronze wendtii helps propagate the plant and if so, how you would recommend trimming down.
> 
> The wisteria grows crazy and I'm not sure how exactly to trim it down. I'd prefer it to be more stubby and bushy but its rather long and tall with large leaves in the top.
> 
> Any help is appreciated!


wisteria is easy and forgiving, hack and replant the tops.
Leave the stumps as they will sprout and form new tops.
Trimming will help clean up the crypts or if they get too dense, you might consider mowing them, but the bronze crypt likely will be the only one you might consider. C parva really does not need it unless you get algae on it etc.


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## Bahugo

Have you ever mowed emersed plants? More specifically glosso and dwarf hairgrass


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## thefisherman

plantbrain said:


> I've done a hybrid method of uprooting and replanting the plugs, then trimming it and keeping down that way, the mound has/had gotten a bit too loose.
> 
> This worked pretty good, about 4 weeks later, it's formed a nice rug.
> Much faster than the initial planting(8-10 weeks).


bah they just discussed your question earlier 


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.749110,-73.756759
Sent from my iPhone


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## plantbrain

Then all of it:









It'll be back in a week or two.

The UG filled in nicely and fast using the plugs and then I trim like grass from here on.
The larger mound was too far gone to trim since the middle had pulled up from the roots. 

So it was removed and replanted with plugs. The trick is to prevent that from getting too thick and away from me before trimming it.

Same is true for Gloss and HC.

Trim before it gets going too much other wise it will uproot and the edges will be the only rooted part.


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## TheJadeShrimp

plantbrain said:


>


What is the semi-dark green plant in the middle? Next to the red leafy colored plants.


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## knuggs

TheJadeShrimp said:


> What is the semi-dark green plant in the middle? Next to the red leafy colored plants.


Downoi


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## TheJadeShrimp

knuggs said:


> Downoi


Okay thanks. -adds plant to want list-


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