# Nerites Keep Dying (SOLVED) / Separating Male & Female Snails?



## Teebo

I decided I want some Nerite snails, but I do not want the headache of unhatched eggs on everything. From my research the males do not have this nuisance, but are almost impossible to distinguish from the females. 

I do have a backup tank the females can go into without an issue. I was thinking about buying some and quarantining them separately long enough to see which ones are laying eggs. 

If I do this they wont be in established water/tanks during their quarantine so they will not have anything to eat...can something be added to each quadrant for them to munch on? 

I assume within 1 week I will be able to identify the egg layers right?


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## Teebo

*Alright kind of trying this out, I bought 2 zebra and 2 tiger nerite snails. They were part of a new shipment so they seemed a bit dormant however the sales associate checked them and sniffed them to make sure they were alive. So far they have not moved, I used the same water they came bagged in for now and there is nothing for them to eat so I bought Algae Thins I cracked one in half and put it in there. If I get no eggs after about 10 days I will abandon the experiment to remove the females...I assume 10 days is long enough?* 










*This store did not have any horned Nerites so I drove to another and bought the only 2 horned I could find there and they are very small compared to the other 4 BUT much more active! Is the horned version a smaller snail in general or do I have babies? I put these 2 in one of my established tanks with some algae on the glass in some areas down by the gravel and I see them down there but they are not removing any of it where they move across so either they are too young to be effective or the horned version is just not a very effective glass cleaner. It is interesting though that they are sticking together as a pair! Has anyone seen pairing between snails before??*


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## cjp999

I find that egg laying varies a lot by time of year. I have about 50 nerites in 4 tanks, but can barely find any eggs right now. Other times of year I'll see them everywhere. Funny thing is I seem to recall this being the time of year when I normally see a lot. Maybe I'm just off by a few weeks and the eggs will start turning up soon. My point is, just because you isolate a nerite for a week and don't see any new eggs doesn't mean it isn't a female.


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## Drewet88

I looked into the same thing before I bought my nerites and I was told they prefer to lay on driftwood. Also if you see any pair off I think that means they might be mating so one of your horned nerites might be a female. Also I see my nerites go across patches of algae on the glass and they don't pick it off right away but now that they've been in there for a few weeks I can notice the difference. They ate a lot of the algae off of the glass, so much that its almost not noticeable, they'll do their job they just need some time to get to munching. 

I would let the ones in your small tank mingle for a while as a group, and then add some dividers or something and separate them so if you find eggs you'll know which one laid them based on location. If you have a rock or something that has some algae on it add it to the tank you have them in, the more natural the environment the more likely they'll try and breed which will help you figure out who is female. If you see a couple of nerites climbing on each other try and remember which ones they were in case they were breeding. 

Like @cjp999 said they don't always lay eggs right away so you might not want to quit the experiment in 1 week.


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## Kubla

All the horned nerites are a smaller size than the tiger, zebra, olive, etc. My nerites are often together. Not sure how they find each other (92 gallon corner tank)


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## Teebo

I looked in the tanks for eggs at the stores and saw barley any of them, the most were of course on a piece of wood. Maybe they clean them well or as said time of year, maybe once I start seeing them I will isolate the snails than with their own pieces of driftwood to encourage the females to lay. They do this for how long a few months out of the year? 

This morning I checked on the two horned snails I put in my tank and one was on the glass and the other was laying upside down in the gravel with his door shut. I am not sure if they sleep this way or when they are full this is how they digest or what but 15min later the one that was on the glass is now doing the same thing so I do not think they are stressed...

Good to know about all the horned species being dwarfed in size, I may stay away from these due to that fact since they will not be as effective at scraping algae off the glass but I can see them being perfect for a tiny micro tank or Betta bowl setup. 

If they need a certain time of year I would rather let them all mingle in an established tank so I do not have to worry about their water chemistry, who knows it could be months before they even lay an egg in my tank.

The 4 larger snails I bought from the other store that seemed dormant have made some but little progress overnight; the Tigers have stuck to the tank and begun to move around a little bit but I am not sure the color of their flesh is healthy? Seems dark to me like the color of a mushroom, the horned snails have a lighter flesh color and are much more active. On the other hand the Zebras have not moved yet and remain stuck to one another they must be mating?


















Lastly, is there anything specific I should know about their health? I thought dwarf shrimp were simple but I am now learning I need to monitor gH & kH as well as add iodine/calcium is there anything like that I need to know about Nerite snails? I assume anything I add for the shrimp will be okay for the snails, and I do use Flourish comp as well as Excel in this tank slightly under recommended dose.


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## Teebo

*I thought of a better way of doing this, to minimize maintaining another body of water I am already cycling a 15 gallon tank I will not even use for possibly a few months. I can simply stack tubbaware with holes drilled in it, I will put driftwood in each container along with algae wafers. Again I will wait until I see eggs before I even isolate them because do not fix what is not broken right?* 


















*My two horned snails I added yesterday are acting weird, after this morning they just laid like this on their back all day...they seemed perfectly fine this morning maybe they do not like the light?* 










*The 4 larger snails in isolation have not shown much sign of any movement so I put them in my tank and instantly they were up crawling around pissing off my Betta haha so I am not sure maybe it was the temperature because I acclimated with my tank water (minus temp). They have different social behaviors and the snails themselves under the shell looks different so "Nerite" is a very loosely used term. Tiger snails both seemed to be more brave and ran around much more, where the Zebras were shy and kept an eye on my Betta if he came close they closed up. These larger snails really do eat tough/hard algae on the glass down by the gravel line, or at least I observed the Tigers doing a great job right away:*


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## thegirlundertherainbow

If you ever find nerites upside down you need to right them, they usually can't right themselves on their own and will die.


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## JJ09

My horned nerites are smaller than the other ones, too. 
I always wondered if the different nerite types preferred the company of their own kind- because when I had two 'tomato' nerite snails in the same tank, they were frequent together whereas the others hung out by themselves.

Ditto about turning the snails over- nerites can't right themselves. If one falls upside down, turn it back over.

I'm interested to see how successful you are in separating the males from females- I've never tried it myself.


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## Teebo

Oh really? How long do I have to right them? I assume being on their back for 24-48 hours is not a problem? - With that being said I woke up this morning and all my snails were on their backs closed up, all of them but one and this includes both the horned snails that have not moved. Something seems off, as if they do not like the water which has 0-Ammonia/0-Nitrite/0-Nitrate however I do not test my GH & KH (the test is on its way now) I am told that may be why my Ghost shrimp die after a month. I do see lots of algae removed already overnight though so they were eating or at least some of them were. I hope they do not fall on their back where I do not see them, I assume they wait for the current or something to flip them I even witnessed another snail helping flip another over not sure if it was intentional or not I want to know why they fall off the glass and end up on their backs possibly my Betta harasses them and they loose suction or they get bit by bugs? I have tiny tiny worms on the glass my Betta eats, and tiny tiny water fleas also on the glass maybe they bite the snails?

I will certainly be separating as soon as I witness a cluster of eggs near a snail for verification, that is if I can keep these alive!


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## Teebo

*I caught one of the snails emerging but he did not make it far and returned to the water:*









*
I thought my Betta was going to chill out but he is getting worse, constantly around the snails even when they are not moving he focuses in on them. If one flips over he nips at the soft tissue before they close their door it must smell appetizing I swear he uses those nostrils. The shrimp are much faster than him and he gives up very quickly, but these snails are something he can actually catch haha. I am not sure this is going to work, if he does not chill out soon I will remove them.*


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## Drewet88

Well I accidently found out which one of my nerites is a female. I've been moving my fish and snails to their new tank and ended up separating my nerites for about a week. Neither snail has ever laid an egg in my 20 gallon but now that one was in a tank with DW she started lying them all over my wood. No eggs for over a month and then suddenly eggs everywhere. The 20 gallon has no DW in it and the temp was set at a stable 76 but the 29gallon has DW, live plants, and has been set to about 80 degrees. 

If you still want to see if any of them are females maybe all you need to do is increase temp? 
This is on a very small piece of DW that I could easily remove so if I ever get the room I might try and make a 3 gallon saltwater tank and see if I can get them to hatch. 

I have since switched my nerites around so if anymore eggs popup on the DW that means I have 2 female nerites, if its just the one female I don't know if I'll put her back in this tank. 

Now the betta fish will most likely never give up on the nerites because they are easily catchable. Luckily they can close themselves in their shells, just make sure the betta doesn't stress them too much.


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## Teebo

Valuable information thank you! My temp is a stable 76/77 my heater is a self controlled miniature. 

I will certainly isolate them with driftwood sounds to be key to this process. 

As for my snails go, only 1 has moved since last night the rest have still not moved and the two horned snails that were on their back for a day have not budged since I turned them over 36 hours ago. I just got my GH/KH test kit today so I will see where my water is at, possibly that is affecting them. I found 1 large Zebra on its back this morning and that was it, seems like a PITA flipping them over daily something seems wrong. Last night I observed one fall off the glass without my Betta present and I immediately flipped it over, thing never moved since. I know for a fact Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate are not a problem and are not even present I never ever have any Nitrates and I do a 50% water change every 4-7 days (testing before the water change) so my plants must eat all my Nitrates this is a Riparium with surface plants that use the tank water for fertilization.


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## Drewet88

I think the nerites might be less active because the betta. My nerites were very sluggish for a few days, I think when they realized my guppies aren't interested in them they became way more active. 

Dw does seem to be the key, I assumed I had 2 male nerites but as soon as DW got introduced eggs started popping up. I'm not sure if the heat had anything to do with it, but my nerite was very active in the warmer water. I might try the test again with DW in my tank set at 74-76 and see if she lays more eggs.


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## JJ09

Keep an eye on them, some bettas will bite the snails' feelers off. I think they survive that, or learn to keep their feelers drawn in, but it certainly can't be pleasant for the snail.


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## Teebo

*I have been on the lookout for feeler nipping because they look like worms, he loves anything white in a line I have seen him eat floating bits of plant roots and spit them back out. They were so inactive today none of them budged, I wonder if they sense his presence over them even when they can't see him he even lays sideways as to cover them with his tail he is such an ashole lol. I decided to move 2 of them into this back corner where the filter, heater, and other hardware are hidden and is where the Amano shrimp like to hang out. There is only one way into this area and once he gets over here the filter stream hits him and he gets claustrophobic and leaves haha*


















My test kit came in today for GH/KH (API) and I tested both my tap water after conditioned with Prime and my tank water. I am not sure if I am suppose to count the first drop in the conversion chart so I have two numbers/range. My conditioned tap reads 35-54ppm GH & 18-36ppm KH, the tank water read 72-90ppm GH & 36-54ppm KH.


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## Teebo

It has been two days now since I moved one of each into the back corner where the shrimp hang out, not a single snail in the tank has moved in 48 hours...really weird and the Betta has been harassing the ones I left out much less now plus I left them in groups. Stress from harassment has been removed from the ones placed behind the cave for 48 hours unless Amano shrimp harass them back there. Now I am stumped on why they are all closed up, when should I start smelling them to make sure they are not dead?


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## Drewet88

My nerites didn't move for 2 or 3 days when I first introduced them to my tank and their only tank mates are guppies who barely bothered them. My female nerite started moving on day 2 but only on a fake hollowed out tree stump that she never left, just cleaned the log 24/7 at night time the outside and day time she was in the inside. The hopefully male nerite started moving on day 3 and scours the whole tank day and night. 

Its already been 2 days so I say if there's no sign of life tomorrow go ahead and give them a sniff test but, I've read online that they could not move for up to a week and then one day they're moving everywhere. Hopefully they just need more time. I also read they like zucchini so if they pass the sniff test maybe put them on top of some zucchini when you add them back to the tank, maybe that will entice them enough to come out.


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## Teebo

Thank you for your advice! They did move instantly the first day but have since closed up, some ate quite a bit too.


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## Drewet88

No problem glad I could help. Don't forget about the zucchini, if they haven't ate in a few days that might be enough for them to decide to pop out. 

I'm starting to think I might have 2 females. 
I see more eggs in the tank but I do not know if they were there before. I'll keep a better eye on it and see if new eggs are popping up, if so I'll either have to learn to live with the eggs or get more nerites and see if I can isolate some males. 

Let me know how the sniff test works out for ya.


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## Teebo

Raw zucchini right??

You should just isolate them real quick with DW to verify, make a container out of tubbaware!


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## Drewet88

I would blanch the zucchini first, or if you're lazy like me just throw it in the microwave in a cup with just enough water to cover it for 10-30 seconds depending on the strength of your microwave, let it cool off and then toss it in. You can quickly cool it by giving it an ice bath. 
They will eat it raw, I just think softening it up a little bit for them will make them want it more. 

I thought about isolating the other one for a few days to see if its a female. I think I'll drill up a small container (just so the water is still 80 degrees and the snail is already acclimated) in the same tank its in and just put in there with a fresh piece of DW. If new eggs pop up I have 2 females :/ but I'll try hatching their eggs to hopefully get some males. Actually looking at the small amount of eggs I have its not that bothersome but I can see it being a visual disturbance if they started covering everything. It does give it more of a natural look in the tank.


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## TankPlanter

When I kept my nerite in a tank with my betta, I never saw it move (in a betta-free community tank, it moves everywhere). To test if it was alive, every couple of days I would throw in a blanched and cooled organic mini-carrot. The next morning I'd find it hidden on the underside. It never went for zucchini- guess they can be picky 

Bump: Also, check out the male and female organ pictures in this link. I asked an invertebrate breeder if it could be used to sex them, but she said the sex organ was only visible around mating time so it's hard to catch.

http://applesnail.net/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=18327&start=45


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## Teebo

*I'm not so sure they made it, still nothing so I removed them and they all smell the same...not strong but like oysters and dog chit. The smaller tiger doesn't smell so I'm not sure if its already been eaten by tiny bugs in my substrate.* 










*I bought a zucchini cut it in coins then halfs, blanched it all and froze the pieces. I did as you said, we will see if any of them take it if not someone here just said carrot. There is also an Amano shrimp on it, they seem to like it too haha:*










*Thanks everyone!*


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## Drewet88

I've never smelt a dead one before but from what I read you'll know if they're dead. Hopefully the zucchini gets them to come out if not try the carrot or maybe even an algae wafer. 

I grabbed 2 more nerites and so far no eggs, strange thing is my new nerites took no time to start roaming around the tank. They would race circles around my other 2.


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## hachi

Teebo said:


> *I'm not so sure they made it, still nothing so I removed them and they all smell the same...not strong but like oysters and dog chit. The smaller tiger doesn't smell so I'm not sure if its already been eaten by tiny bugs in my substrate*


*

You'll know if they're dead. Dead snail smells HORRIBLE. Like nothing I've ever smelled before. It's like a bad combination of stagnant swamp, rotted fish, and burning rubber. So bad. You would have known if one of them was dead.*


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## Teebo

First off zucchini was a horrible idea when it came to removing it, impossible! Falls apart made a huge mess out of my tank if I do that again it will be a much smaller piece!

*2 days on a piece of zucchini no movement at all, things do not look good. Where I had them before I found this piece that I believe fell out of a small horned snail:* 


















*Now where I moved a different horned snail the same thing...I think its a piece of the snail itself to be honest:*




















Drewet88 said:


> Strange thing is my new nerites took no time to start roaming around the tank. They would race circles around my other 2.


Mine were very active when first put in the tank as well.


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## Drewet88

Hhmm sorry to hear about that not working out. 

I heard the 1st thing to fall off when they die is the trapdoor, maybe that's what that is? 
I'm all out of ideas unless you have a different tank where they could be alone just to make sure it isn't the betta they're hiding from.


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## Teebo

I think you are right about that being the trap door, and I do have them all in the back corner behind the rock where the Betta can not get to them. It may be a little noisy with the pump, and the shrimp may be curious of them but that is about it. I think they are all dead to be honest, for whatever the reason may have been. I see a lot of those tiny white dot bugs crawling in and out of their shells probably eating them. 

If they are over stressed will they favor being closed up over eating? Will they starve themselves? There is enough to eat that they could have opened up for 10min a day and gotten the food they needed anywhere they are placed.


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## Drewet88

Not sure about nerites but I've had fish that were stressed out and chose hiding over eating. I wouldn't think they would starve themselves though. Weird that all of them would die together, normally I would guess water quality or something but if your shrimp are healthy I don't see a reason your snails shouldn't be healthy. 

Sometimes we just get a bad batch, it happened with my first batch or RCS, no matter what I tried they all died one by one. Now I got a different batch from 2 different breeders and they are doing way better than the last ones. Too bad its been so long some places will take them back within a certain amount of time if they die.


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## hollo

I thought I'd pop in and offer one piece of advise on finding out if the nerites are alive or not - pick them up and press the trapdoor in just a touch, not much. If the snail is still alive it will react by pulling the trapdoor tighter against it's shell, and you'll feel some resistance.
If the snail is dead, the trapdoor will be easy to move and there will be no resistance, and no reaction. Everyone says snails smell horrible, but I lost a large amount of Nerites when I ordered fifteen, and none of them stank - I did the trapdoor test instead to figure it out.


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## Teebo

The horned snails were from one store and the Zebra/Tiger were from another. Odd and kind of discouraging I mean its a snail if you can't keep that alive you might as well give up haha. I did not keep my receipt so they will not take them back the bastards.

The girl at the store did that test by pushing on their doors before she bagged them for me as well as smell them. Unfortunately they are all dead and that smell I got the last time I checked was the smell its just I had to hold them close to smell it and yes it was quite gross. I pulled them out and the only one that smelled was the large Tiger snail with the white fungus growth around its edge. The last Zebra I thought had a chance but I went to rinse it off and as soon as the water touched the door it popped from internal pressure...yeek.


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## Teebo

I bought 2 more Nerites tonight; one Tiger and one Zebra. She made sure to pull very active snails and I made sure to put them in the back corner of my tank FIRST so they can get used to the tank before venturing out into the Bettas territory. They are both crawling around back there so it is a good sign, at least if they get stressed out they may know how to get back or have at least gotten used to the tank before being stressed.

EDIT: I found them both on their backs this morning but at least still in the back corner, they had eaten I can see algae removed from the glass....so I flipped them over.


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## Teebo

No sign of movement today, I believe these 2 new Nerites are destine to repeat the same fate. I am so frustrated because as far as I know I am doing everything right, I even added a few more Japanese Algae Eating shrimp at the same time as these 2 new snails nothing else dies on me. Only thing I am unsure about is pH, I am trying to figure that out currently, I seem to have a maximum swing of 6.8-7.8 but I can not seem to read my API test correctly. The high range always reads 7.8 (orange) day or night...only the normal range seems to change between morning and evening (from 6.8 to 7.2) and I forget which way it was moving but I test 15min before lights come on and 15min before they turn off. 

Really, unless they need some additive like Iodide the way my shrimp do, pH and hardness is the only thing I can possibly think of. I am about to join a snail forum to solve this because they do an amazing job eating hard algae on my glass down by the gravel for the first 12 hours then close up. I really want snails!


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## Drewet88

That's so strange. Its crazy that its happening again, the only suggestion I could have would be to try getting nerites from a different location. I'm not sure if PH swings would really matter that much, I would think the shrimp would get bothered by it before the snails. I read nerites shouldn't be in water with a PH less than 7 but I don't think being at 6.8 for a little while would hurt too much. I would say maybe its your nitrate levels but I think high levels of those would hurt the shrimp before the snails too. I would even ask about copper in the water or medications but it wouldn't make sense with the shrimp being fine. I'm stumped unless that place just happens to have bad nerites. 

I ended up having to put one of the females back into my main tank so I'm sure I'll have new eggs popping up everywhere. She wasn't taking to well to the brackish tank and looked like she was dying of a few different occasions.


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## Teebo

Even if they were exposed to low pH they should at least move during the "good hours" and I agree with the shrimp being monitors, however I have not tried Ghost shrimp again since they were dying on me after a few weeks to a month. Amanos are more hearty and may even be heartier than snails, I always use Prime in my water to remove any metals. Regarding nitrates I have a 0 nitrate problem were my plants consume too much, my bio-to-plant load is so off I am about to start adding Seachem Nitrate because every week that I add a new plant my Frogbit becomes more and more bleached. 

I just removed the 2 snails, they smell so they must be dead already! It has only been 4 days, I am bringing them back to the store today because I kept my receipt this time.

*I think I may try another kind of snail to see if they live, what is the next best algae eating snail that will not breed in my tank??*

Why don't you try moving just the DW with eggs on it to the brackish and not the snail itself?


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## Drewet88

I can't think of any good alternative to nerites. I looked into it when my nerites first started laying eggs but all I came up with were different kinds of fish to try and I don't think you can go this route since its a betta tank. Maybe more shrimp? In my 20 gallon I couldn't keep shrimp alive and I never figured out why. 

I would move the DW but the piece she has chosen to lay her eggs on is too big to move around. 
Plus I read that the nerites eggs are only fertile if they mate in brackish water so I was testing that theory. Now my tiger couples are in the main tank and my zebra couple are in the brackish tank.


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## Teebo

I brought them back, and they tried selling me a $10 rabbit snail. I ended up bringing home a black mystery snail and a ivory snail. I think all mystery snails are unidentified apple snails? Even this ivory snail I think is just an apple snail? Will these lay eggs and reproduce in my tank? 


















I visited a different store as well while I was out, and found a Nerite I have not found before called a Black Racer. So I bought it for good luck although it climbed some jungle val onto an anubias leaf at the surface and has stayed on its underside I am not sure Racers like the light. 










Betta knew something was in the tank even though he could not see them, or get to them until they came up and out of this corner...and they did quickly. I think the Betta can smell the snails to be honest. 










These snails really move, and they stick together for the most part. They have a high tolerance to the Bettas harassment they just retract their antenna and lower their shell but continue about their business eating, moving, not caring the Betta is trying to eat their antenna. So much more brave than a Nerite, even when nipped they do not close up it made my Betta so mad he threw a flashing temper tantrum and bounced off everything in the tank since he couldn't aggravate the Mystery snails haha. I witnessed them eating algae off the glass, not nearly as thoroughly as the Nerites were but they spend a lot of time on the glass I have been watching them for hours. When researching what a Ivory snail was (I still think it is an apple snail) the article said they like/need calcium additives...speaking of, I asked over the phone before I went to the LFS if they wanted to test my water since I am returning snails they said sure they use liquid tests I figured what the heck I will let them check it. Got there they stuck 1 test strip in the water "yep, fine" I can double verify that with all my API liquid tests I meticulously use. A plus is these mystery snails crap like crazy and I need more bio-load since I have a nitrate deficiency, I also caught them both darting for the surface together then when they got there they stuck a straw thing out of one side and appeared to suck air for the surface and pump their head in and out of their shell really fast, then drop to the bottom of the tank haha weirdest thing I have ever seen, they are really good at landing on their bottom too!


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## JJ09

Sorry the nerites didn't thrive for you- that was strange. I can only think you were getting unhealthy snails from the petstore, or ones that were old? Glad the apple snails look to be doing well so far- I had one in a betta tank years ago- they _are_ fun to watch. I was just going to say, maybe you only want one because they are pretty big snails and do poop a lot, but sounds like that's a plus for you actually. 

I put a piece of cuttlebone in my tank to give the snails calcium- you can buy it at the pet store in the bird section. Just broke a chunk off it. I've read of other people giving the snails calcium-rich food, or adding calcium carbonate to the water- you could look into one of those options too.


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## Teebo

I made sure they were healthy snails, they are aware of my problem and made sure to pull extremely active snails for me. So it has been 12 hours, the Racer Nerite has not moved from the Anubias leaf at the surface. However the black mystery is closed up, and the pearl snail is MIA haha. I hope the apple/mystery snails open up today if not that will be a bad sign for sure. 

Any idea what my snails were doing at the surface with that little air straw pumping their heads? Are they labyrinth snails like my Betta?

I will try something with Calcium, hopefully it does not throw my hardness off though. I wanted to try marine liquid calcium but dosing was too confusing.

UPDATE: Lights came on and the mystery apples opened up and started moving about their business


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## JJ09

No idea really. Did it look like this? My trumpet snails did this when I first put them in the tank, I thought they were mating.


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## Teebo

Kind of, they only stick the straw out of one side in the front of their shell and extended it just barley above the water surface I could see them drawing the water surface toward them. They moved their whole head in and out of their shell literally like a beating heart for about 10 seconds then they detached from the glass almost instantly and dropped straight down to the substrate it was a very coordinated act.


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## JJ09

That sounds like different behavior- interesting. I bet someone who knows more about snails could tell us.


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## Drewet88

If it looked like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpUDW1hoBmo its normal. 

They're just breathing air, I've read they do this when they feel the water they are in isn't oxygenated enough to use their gill. They also use it when they lay eggs since they like to lay eggs above the waterline. 

I thought about getting a mystery snail but heard they might get kinda big so I didn't get one.


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## Teebo

Bingo! Yes. I busted out the macro lens to get a photo of both sides and it is only present on one side. Does this mean I have two females or do Apple snails have no sex?




















This may explain my problem, if they want more oxygen. They were extremely active today and the Racer Nerite just mostly stayed on that Anubias leaf upside down he is not dead because he is holding on. Eventually crawling over on a jungle val even closer to the downfall by the filter, I bet my tank does not have enough oxygen! I do not use an air pump, because my plants SHOULD be producing oxygen right? Plus the water surface is broken with the internal filter it creates air bubbles that float back to the surface. The behavior of both types of snails would say so, but there is not test for that...my Betta does not need oxygen rich water and apparently either do Amanos...this may be why my Ghost shrimp were dieing though. I have zero water surface slick too which is usually a sign of good surface agitation.


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## Drewet88

Plants only produce oxygen when the lights are on, when the lights are off they actually use up the oxygen in the water. I think all apple snails have the siphon not just the females. 

Some species of apple snails can change back and forth between male/female some can't, I dunno what species you have. This might help: Reproduction 
This one has some pics on the differences between male/female: 
Sex Of Your Snail by Terri Bryant | Photobucket 

It could be a low oxygen problem, you could start by putting a bubbler in the tank just to cut on at night to make up for the plants not producing any oxygen. If increasing oxygen gets this current nerite to be more active that might've been the problems with the other ones as well but I think nerites will try to leave the tank too if they don't think the water quality is good enough.


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## Teebo

I knew plants use both oxygen and CO2 but could not remember which way it went with the lighting cycle. 

Thank you, I need to get to the bottom of the sexing and egg laying with Apple snails I do not want an infestation!

The Racer Nerite has moved to the front of the tank onto the glass, which is a huge step for it and may be a good sign but it is not very active. The water quality is probably better than the stores, probably the best water they have ever been in EXCEPT for the oxygen so it may not drive them out of the water. 

So you say bubbler only at night right? Better that way for me since the pump I have on hand is not exactly silent, I also have a CO2/Oxygen glass diffuser so the bubbles will be really small (more effective).


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## Drewet88

Yeah bubbler only at night when your lights are off to make up for the plants using up the oxygen. I think it would be a little hard to have an apple snail infestation since they normally lay above the water line and you should see a cluster of their eggs if they do. When you see the cluster of eggs you can just remove them if you don't want any babies (its pretty big and hard to miss). 

I think as long as the bubbler doesn't upset the betta too much it might be the answer to your problems. My nerites in my breeding experiment are in a tank without a bubbler but I manually agitate the surface 2-3 times throughout the day to make sure there is enough dissolved oxygen in the water for them. If I see them at the top of the water line I do it even more, I'm looking for a small bubbler so I can oxygenate the little 1 gallon containers for them.

A couple more things I found that might help you out: 

Nerite Snails: these are small, up to 1inch, snails. They have small round shells, and come in huge variety of colors and patterns. They are very popular in aquariums because they readily eat, and survive on, algae, but do not tend to attack live plants. They also only rarely reproduce in an aquarium, so there are little problems with overpopulation. Nerite snails, however, is a very broad name. There are nerite snails for freshwater, some for brackish, and some for saltwater. Obviously, putting a saltwater snail in a freshwater tank will result in a high mortality rate. It can be difficult to find proper freshwater nerites. Also, freshwater nerites originate from fast-flowing rivers. These snails tend to be less hardy. They like aquariums with a lot of water-flow and oxygenation. They do not support high nitrate levels, like some other snails.

Mystery/Apple Snail: These are commonly bought for 2-4$. These snails have a few small swirls at the end of their shell, but are a very round shape. They have a trapdoor and can normally get up to golf-ball size. Some of the massive ones have gotten as big as a tennis ball. They come in black, golden/yellow, purplish, or ivory color. The ivory snails are harder to find. These snails' shell's can change color, if the diet changes drastically. These snails have 2 small tentacles, directly beside their mouth. They also have 2 longer tentacles above the mouth, but below their eyes. These longer tentacles can be nipped at by fish. If one is bitten off, it will grow back, just not to its former length. These snail reproduce sexually, however, a female mystery snail can preserve male reproductive material for up to a year. The female stores the sperm, waiting for favorable conditions. Once the snail is in a favorable environment it lays its eggs. Mystery snails lay there eggs outside to water, normally on the hood. This is why the water level needs to half a few inches of air, before the hood. If you don't want offspring, simply scrape the eggs off after 2-3. Makes sure they are somewhat dried out, otherwise they are gooey. If you want offspring, makes sure the eggs stay moist. The will turn a pinkish color and should hatch in about 14 days. A female will usually lay the eggs in clumps (hundreds) at night. Another really interesting adaptation of mystery snails is their lung. Mystery snails have gills, and do breath underwater, but not indefinitely. They originate from tropical areas, where they water has very low oxygen levels. So they evolved and they now have a lung, and strange siphon. This siphon in a flap of skin that the snail stretches out, to the surface of the water. The little tube breaks the water surface, and the snail can be seen heaving as it breathes. This is why it is very important to have about an inch or airspace between the waterline and hood. Also, this snail could very well exit the tank completely, so make sure the lid is tight to make sure the snail will not leave the aquarium. Mystery snails are good algae eaters when they are younger, but tend to grow out of it. They do not specifically eat live plants, but they can hurt some soft-leaved plants, if they are not fed properly. These snails really need a supplementary diet to stay healthy.


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## Teebo

Good to know!!

How would it upset my Betta? What I am going to do is place it behind the rock cave where the rest of my hardware is (heater, filter, etc) which is where the Betta does not go, this may also help being close to the filter where some of the bubbles can be sucked into the filter and chopped up even further...probably helping my bacteria colony in the filter too.

"Nerite snails tend to be less hardy. They like aquariums with a lot of water-flow and oxygenation."
*^ BINGO ^*

Good to know there are only 3 major types of Mystery/Apple, I hate the gold they seem the most common. I am glad I have one of the harder to find aka Ivory, which was about $1 more. Great read up thank you! Within 5min the mystery apple snails both headed for the surface together for oxygen, and my Racer Nerite has been at the surface all day on the glass, I am almost 100% sure we have solved this problem. Possibly one of my plants is a massive oxygen hog.


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## Caliadria

This is a fascinating discussion! 

Would it be okay to introduce a snail or two to my shrimp breeding tank, or would they eat all the algae and/or upset the shrimp?

We had some tiger snails in our old tank and I loved them... and then we moved and apparently the stress killed them off.


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## Teebo

I think they eat different types of algae, I have shrimp with my snails and they do not bother each other. There are also snails in the Cherry shrimp tank at the LFS. 

I caught one of the mystery apple snails eating a hole in my Jungle Val today but it was were the foliage was startign to rot (it had dried out on top of a piece of Anubias at the surface) so at least they eat dead greenery and stop at live vains, so far at least. 


*This is the setup I had kicking around mostly all glass for aesthetics:* 










*This is really all you can see of it is the glass loop over the tank rim in what I am calling my utilities corner. The tiny bubbles rise to the surface and get brought back down by the falling water, which gives it more time to absorb:*

















*
It is blocked off by the rock cave, thing is like an iceberg all you see is the mossy peak above the surface but it blocks a lot of flow below. I thought about placing the air diffuser on the right side to get some circulation over there but it seems fine, no oil slick, and I want it out of sight if possible. Is there anything wrong with running the pump 24/7? I am using Excel and not CO2 injection so I should not have to worry about off-gassing my CO2 right?*


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## Drewet88

I didn't know your setup was that extensive that is awesome. 

It shouldn't upset your betta I forgot you had it setup so the annoying things couldn't get to him. I'm digging the all glass hardware I thought about doing that when I built my sump but I put that plan on the backburner for now. 

I think we might've found the answer to the problem too. It's crazy that the O2 bothered the snails before the shrimp IMO but after reading more I see that shrimp have a better gill system than snails. 
@Caliadria You should be fine adding tiger snails to your shrimp tank. They'll probably work pretty well together.


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## Teebo

Thank you, yeah those long J-tubes are hard to get in one piece and after the second attempt they stop refunding you but they are only like $3 shipped on eBay from China. This one had broke and I heated an air line enough to work it over the broken end without a glass step down present. 

Racer Nerite never moved off the front of the glass last night, and after I shut off the air pump this morning by noon he was halfway out of the tank so I ended up leaving the pump on all day and he has moved a little, pooped a lot, but not active. That thing never closes up and I am starting to wonder if the "Racer" does not have a trap door?? It had a different tag then the rest of the Nerites did; Tiger, Zebra, Horned, etc, all have the same sku. Even with the air pump on all day this is now probably 20 hours with the pump on and one of my Mystery snails just came to the surface and pumped in oxygen. This is not normal behavior for Mystery snails in a healthy tank right?


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## Drewet88

I think they do it regardless they just do it more often when the water doesn't have a lot of oxygen in it. Some people have said there snail will just sit right above the waterline for hours at a time just because it feels like it. I wouldn't worry about it. 

It is possible the nerite lost his trapdoor from injury or something. It should be ok without one it just can't protect itself from predators. The nerite will hopefully start to move more now that the water is oxygenated, just give it a little time to adapt.


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## Teebo

I caught one of my mystery apple snails floating around the tank at the surface yesterday, looked really bad haha. It was fully open floating, doing the moon-walk, I read sometimes they do that to try and float down river somewhere else. I poked it, the thing bobbed then sank easily. It is fine and very active crawling around eating I am not worried about the floating incident. I decided to move the black mystery apple to my quarantine/hospital/grow-out tank since it is aesthetically dull imo, I kept the Pearl Snail in my tank though the white makes a great contrast against anything in the tank and it is very active. Here is the tank I put the black snail in with plenty to eat this is not a display tank, for anyone who says they will not eat algae here is proof do not ask me how it got onto this lace leaf but I saw it on there yesterday and he cleaned the whole leaf!










Regarding my Racer Nerite, that name is a joke it is the slowest moving snail I have ever seen. Still kicking though and it has been several days now with the air pump on 24/7, it spends about half its time sitting halfway out of the water at the surface, and never ever closes up. It has been more active the last 2 days I see it moving around the glass but no lower than 1-2" below the water surface, and poops so it is eating (not sure what up there). Maybe it has permanent brain damage from lack of oxygen haha I want to try new Nerites now with my air pump...I will put some in my tank with the black snail to see if they have problem in that tank which should have more O2 (less plants, smaller tank, and larger filter with more surface agitation)


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## Teebo

I have a new factor I want to mention and see what people think, I use those lead wrappable weights to weigh a few plants down such as Anubias where you can not see the weights. They came from the plant dealer and they claim they are non-toxic aquarium safe lead...but if it somehow leached into the water that is a heavy metal that could affect the snails, no?


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## Drewet88

Glad to hear they are all alive and somewhat kicking. I think your apple snail just wanted to see its home from a new angle. 

I've always taken those weights off of my plants when I bought them so I have no idea how it might hurt an aquarium. If it did leach into the water it would be bad for your shrimp as well. From what I just read the lead won't harm an aquarium unless you have low Ph. 
*Lead naturally builds a protective layer of lead oxide (a dull grey colour) and this layer stops the lead from leaking into the water. However if your tank pH is less than 7 then the slightly acidic water will slow corrode away this protective layer and will leach lead into the water. But at a pH of around 6-7 this will happen so slowly over several months that you will probably have done several 25% water changes over that time thereby removing any small levels of lead there may have been in the water.

Invertebrates like shrimp, triops, snails, crabs, etc. are very sensitive to levels of any heavy metals and the presence of dissolved lead in the water will kill them.
Some commercial water conditioners have the ability to de-toxify heavy metals dissolved in the water.*

So if you're worried start adding some stress coat (it's supposed to detoxify heavy metals).


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## Teebo

Good to know, still waiting for an accurate pH meter since my API kit seems useless. I think I will remove them, I use them to keep Anubias sunken into cracks on my rock cave. 

So my journey continues, I decided to try a new Nerite since this air pump seems to be helping. I found one with a rare pattern the arrows I do not see often however the shell seems to be cracked, or is this how they grow? It also has scratches on the shell I am not sure how it got scratched up, but it was active so I bought it. Found it on its back this morning grr...flipped it over and it has not moved all day, not good. I did some more snail research turns out Nerites have a very short lifespan of only about 1 year on average? Where mystery snails will live 5 or more years, less in higher temps because they are more active. My pearl snail is super overly active it moves really fast for a snail and is all over the tank one minute its on one side the next its on the opposite, and loves to free-fall I constantly catch it climbing up and parachuting to the bottom of the tank I have convinced myself its just playing seems kind of fun. I love my pear snail by far my favorite, its just not very effective at removing algae from the glass but it must be eating something. That damn racer snail does nothing but poop, it certainly moves but sooo slow and only likes the top of the tank. I got frustrated seeing it along the front top of the tank and moved it onto a rounded corner that is hard to clean with a flat brush where I have algae, that was the first time I have seen it ever close up and I now know it does have a trap door. It climbed right back to the surface though, I think the snail will go back to the store its an eyesore and does nothing but its alive, active but slow...and maybe its just me but I swear the snail itself is shrinking look how small it looks for the shell diameter:


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## Drewet88

I have a nerite with that same exact pattern. Mine is pretty active though. Mine doesn't have a crack but it does have a couple of scratches that it got squeezes past things in my tank, I've moved things around so it doesn't scrape anymore since I was worried it was going to get stuck. I didn't know they only lived a year that kinda sucks... I only have 1 small one and 3 big ones so they might be at the end of their ropes, I'll have to keep an eye on them to make sure they don't die and foul my water. 

I was wondering if you were going to try the nerite thing again with an air pump in the tank. Maybe you could take it back and grab a little one (younger maybe?) or just stick to the apple snails they seem to like the tank and are being active. I do like my nerites though so I really hope you can get some active ones in your tank.


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## Teebo

I saw a massive one the size of a small mystery snail at the store I stayed away from because the woman tried telling me just because it was big did not mean it was at the end of their life. 

I will try the smallest one I can find after that I give up because the more I read the more controversial it is check this short article out, you better start feeding your Nerites: Why Are My Freshwater Nerite Snails Dying? | Animals - mom.me


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## JJ09

I know they do have short lifespans, but it's not true they only live one year. I have one that's almost two years old now. (I wouldn't be surprised if it died on me at any time now though, because I really was expecting it to only last a year!) If the snail is always climbing to the surface that can indicate something amiss with your water quality.

Have you been acclimating them when you add new ones to your tank? Trumpet snails they are so prolific I am casual and just drop them in, but the nerites I always acclimate gradually just in case they might have some kind of shock with ph or temp difference. Just a thought.


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## Teebo

I cant understand whats wrong, multiple fish stores say my water samples are perfect even better then theirs. Mystery snails have no problem at all, either do Amano shrimps, I may try a few Ghost shrimps to see if they die because thats the only other thing that used to die on me. 

I certainly acclimate them, I do it in a separate Betta viewing tank so the temperature is not perfect but its damn close. I use minimal fish store water and slowly use a turkey baster to add in water from my tank over an hour or more. Then before I add them I remove 75% of the water and add in all tank water at once for temperature. I am buying a drip acclimation system that hangs the bag over your tank I can try that...but next is trying a tiny Nerite. They do not live in freshwater in the wild and have a much longer wild lifespan, I wish I could add a little salt to my aquarium not brackish because I have a Betta but I wonder if _some_ salt would help.


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## JJ09

I've been following your thread a while- since I was interested how you were separating males from females- and i'm baffled what could be the issue. I have nerites kept without salt, they do just fine. Maybe you are expecting too much activity from them? Mine often sit still in a corner for a long time- there's one I thought was dying because it hardly moved for three days- I kept poking it to see if there was any response- but now it's slowly cruising around again as normal. There's another one in my betta tank I will loose sight of for days at a time- always start to worry that it has died- it's the oldest one- but it shows up again. I think they just rest sometimes, so sporadic periods of inactivity may be normal?


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## Teebo

The only problem with activity is my Racer, all others are not just inactive they literally close up and die. I wonder if I have a plant that is leaching a toxin? 

I am so determined I am going to setup a Betta bowl just for snails, see if they live...if not I will try adding a small amount of salt to it and keep trying until I get this right in the Betta bowl. 

I wish I could separate males and females but I cant even keep them alive!

*EDIT:* I think my tank is too warm, the optimum temperature is 70F or less, no greater than 75F...my tank is kept 78-79F with an auto pre-set heater. Hmm...I am going to ask the LFS what temperature they keep their tanks.


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## Drewet88

I keep my tank in the same 77-79 range so I'm not sure that could be a problem but it's always worth a shot. My hatching nerites experiment tank isn't heated at all just sitting at room temp and they seem to be equally active just in a much smaller tank. 

I agree with JJ09 sometimes my snails disappear for a day or 2, sometimes they just seem to hang out in the same place, and other times they are zooming around everywhere. 

I feel like you're slowly narrowing this down. This is what I went through when I was trying to figure out why my RCS kept dying. I think my problem ended up being TDS of my water, now I do about 50/50 RO/Tap water to keep the TDS under 400 (closer to 350) and they've been doing fine. I don't know if it could be something that random with nerites (and I think your betta is a pretty good setup) so I have no idea what could be upsetting the nerites.


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## JJ09

My tanks are kept at 76 and 78-79, for what it's worth. My nerites even survived two weeks at 82 when I was treating for ich last year...


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## Teebo

Thanks for your temperature feedback!

That snail became unresponsive to my touch and he was no longer closing his trap door, did not smell at all, but there was some white slime developing it seemed to die halfway open...so I returned it. If I want to get this down I need to stop returning dead snails and take the hit or they will soon hate me.









I bought 3 more Nerites while I was there, this time all babies smallest ones I could find that seemed active. I brought them home quickly and separated the smallest one into a sandwich bag with store water, sat in my tank for temperature acclimation and over the course of 2 hours slowly added tank water using my turkey baster. Extra slow acclimation and he was very active in the bag the entire time. I finally released it before bed, in the morning it hadn't made it farther than 2" I found it on its side partially closed up and this is now day 2 of that, it goes between partially and fully closed up and never moves. 

Now, the other 2 Nerites are doing very well in isolation. When I got home I setup a 1 gallon Betta tank with a filter. I filled it with the water from the store, then conditioned tap water, no heater but it says around 70-72F. Neither of them have closed up, they are active and eating the algae thin I put in there. I was a bit surprised at the nitrate levels from the store so I added some Frogbit in there to eat the nitrates. I will allow a few more days of isolation and if either of them close up I will acclimate one of them into my basement grow-out tank, which is heated to 72-74F and has different plants than the tank they keep dying in, also I only use Excel weekly in that tank instead of daily in the tank they die in. The grow out tank has gravel only, no dirt so I suppose its another variable I can remove from this. I have high hopes for this now, the snails in the Betta tank are doing very well!


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## Drewet88

Another nerite down.. damn that sucks. 

The slow acclimation might help. I really am at a loss for what the problem could be. I'm also surprised your nerites are eating algae thins mine always let them get mushy and go bad, but when I added lettuce just to see if they'd eat it they destroyed it overnight. 

Nerites seem to do good in isolation. I didn't even know my olive nerites had antennas until I put them in isolation, I guess they didn't trust the guppies so they kept them pulled in? Maybe your snails don't trust the betta even if its not bothering them? Maybe grab the little one and add him to isolation to see if he perks back up. 

I'm just wondering if it is actually something in the betta tank or if it's the breeding stock of nerites at the store you go to. I hope it's not the Excel I just switched to Excel from API CO2 booster, so far I haven't seen any adverse effects from switching to Excel but its only been about a week. I haven't realized your betta tank is dirted, I don't think that could cause a problem but my tank is only gravel and sand. 
Did you buy a special kind of dirt or did you just use some from your yard?


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## Teebo

They love the Zucchini too, I am going to try making up some snail-jello with everything they could ever want in the recipe. 

I did notice they are far more shy to putting their antennas out then mystery snails. I went to put the tiny one in isolation as you suggested....dead, smells, has some slime. The last week my Betta pays no attention to the larger Pearl snail he gave up so I do not think he would bother Nerites anymore. I did not see him near the tiny one I added last at all. 

Well that will be ruled out once I try one in my non-dirted tank that I use Excel in. I used Miracle Grow Organic Choice soil for my substrate and removed all the thick bark pieces, pretty sure it has burnt out the small traces of nutrients it had at this point but I have tons of white critters in my substrate; worms and tiny water flea things. 

I have to say knock on wood these two Nerites are still doing great in isolation!!

*EDIT/UPDATE:* My isolated snails are doing so well I picked up 3 more guinea pigs so I have a total of 5 Nerite snails doing well, I woke up this morning and all 5 are still doing well. Knock on wood I am getting closer, I will be acclimating one of the two I bought last week into my basement grow out tank to see if it lives without a dirted substrate. I stopped using Excel and Flourish in that tank as well just as potential variables, I have 3 Amano shrimp and my Black mystery snail in there that have all been doing great for the last 2 weeks.


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## Drewet88

Nice! 

I wonder if it was just fear of the betta that has the ones in his tank dying. Keep us updated on how they make the transition to the basement tank. I've never heard of guinea pig nerites (when I tried to google them it kept autocorrecting to guinea pig neutering). Do you know what kind of little white critters you have in your substrate? 

The main reason I asked about which dirt you used was because I'm currently regretting not going dirted in my tank just sand/gravel (nothing root tabs won't fix) but my next tank I'll be going dirted with a gravel cap.


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## Teebo

I really do not think the Betta is a factor, I have introduced them in the rear of my tank where the Betta does not go to no avail. Do not forget still, the "Racer" Nerite that does almost nothing besides constantly appear in different locations at the top of the glass and poop is still with me, in my Betta tank and has not closed up once without me provoking it to do so. There is something to the Racer it is different than all other Nerites...I think you missed my joke haha. Guinea Pig "ginny-pig" I mean they are my new subjects/participants in this experiment of mine. 

Yes you should regret it, after a few weeks it compacts just do not plant for a month wait for the full tank load of water pressure to weigh down the substrate first is my recommendation. The particles will not fly as bad this way, planting is always easier than removing a plant which makes a mess but a gravel vac cleans it right up...make sure your gravel is deep enough for your vac not to begin sucking away your dirt layer. 

I am not sure what critters are in my substrate I haven't really looked into it, they are all white and extremely small..they appear to be white dots. Some are fast moving dots like water bugs and others are longer they are harmless flatworms that my Betta loves to eat as a snack but I think they make him bloated. 

IF the Nerite dies in my basement I will remove the led weights I have down there too and do a major water change and try again. My theory with my Betta tank is now pH...the swing may be really drastic overnight and that seems to be when they die on me is overnight. The basement usually has more nitrates (more as in SOME my Betta tank never has any) the plant load is not as heavy so the pH swing may not be as drastic either but I am waiting on a digital pH meter to put that to rest I need an accurate swing window to know.


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## Drewet88

O lol I was a little late to that joke. Yup I forgot your betta was already out of the running for causes to the deaths. Have you checked on the racer at night when the tank is dark to see if its more active? One of mine seems to hide from the light and only moves around at night and the other doesn't seem to care and rolls around the entire tank at all times. 

I'll probably wait until I move to set up a dirted tank (I'm hoping to get a 55 gallon to be a community tank and plant the crap out of it) but that's at least a year away. I don't think its worth the effort to take everything out of my current 29 gal plus I wouldn't have anywhere to house the occupants while I waited a month for the dirt to compact. I'll most likely do a dry start too so I can have a nice carpet going. 

I was just wondering about the critters since I seem to have had some planaria in my aquarium during the cycle, probably didn't help that I let my DW soak in the tank while it was cycling. Once I added my guppies I stopped seeing them as often, now I see one maybe once a month. 

I think the led weights should be fine I've heard of so many people using them without any problems. I've never worried about PH, I haven't even checked mine since my tank seemed to stabilize. Can't wait for the basement experiment to start, maybe it'll help shed some light on the subject.


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## Nordic

Drewet88 said:


> while I waited a month for the dirt to compact.



I know what dirt compacting is, but never heard of it in the context of aquariums...


Could you discuss this step of yours a little more.


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## Drewet88

Dunno all Teebo suggested was waiting a month before planting to give the dirt time to compact from the water pressure. I was ok with the advice since Miracle Gro tends to leach tannins and ammonia into the water so a 1 month wait is ok with me, a fishless cycle tends to take that long anyway. 

I guess my steps would be: 
place miracle gro on bottom of tank and cap it with gravel. 
fill tank up halfway then remove the water (I read that on a different thread, apparently it's to clean the dirt?)
pick a carpeting plant and do a dry start with it. 
plant carpet and keep tank humid. 
After carpet is nice and thick plant the rest and start filling the tank. 
Hopefully by then its as simple as attaching a cannister filter (with some cycled bio material) and having an awesome dirted planted tank. 
Then its time to pick fish, I've never had a community tank before so it will be fun (guppies are the only fish I've ever kept, looking forward to something that schools). 

That's just a guess on how it will go I won't be able to attempt this until I move.


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## WaterLife

Sorry I didn't read through the thread since it is long.
Just seeing if I can help figure out why the snails may be dying.

What's your pH, GH, and KH? (already saw temperature mentioned above)
I assume ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are at healthy levels (0/0/40 or less), and that chlorine/chloramines in tap water are dealt with properly.

Has a copper-based med ever been dosed in this tank?
Happen to have copper piping?

What do you feed them?

Nerites don't have a "snail lung" like most other snails do, they just have gills, so they do rely on dissolved oxygen in the water. And I know Betta tanks usually have very little surface agitation, so lower levels of dissolved oxygen. Though I doubt this is the issue since there should still be enough oxygen since there is a low livestock load and a good amount of surface area. But if you find the snails at the water surface (can't breathe air like snails with "lungs", but there is some more dissolved oxygen at the water surface) it might be possible. Again, I doubt it, but just thought it was worth mentioning.


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## Teebo

pH is unknown, GH is 5.0 and KH is 3.0

0A-0N-1N

Conditioned tap water, shrimp are fine. 

Yes I have copper piping, and no nothing has been dosed with metals such as algaecide. 

Feeding is not necessary right away they die right away, not from hunger but I do feed them algae wafers and zucchini all of this is already in this thread. The tank is established. 

Yes oxygen has been covered in this thread, I have enough surface agitation to keep oil slick away and my plants consume so much oxygen at night I added an air pump with a CO2 diffuser on the end so my water is now heavily oxygenated.

*EDIT:* I checked on the basement tank this morning after last night's acclimation of a Nerite...all is well! It is very active down there, so I will wait another day and add another. Everyone in the 1 gallon is active as well, once I get 2 of them into the basement I will start adding variables to that tank such as Seachem products for elimination. Still I can not keep Ghost shrimp in my main tank they die after a few days so I am going to try some in the basement tank to see whats up. They are far less hardy than my Amanos so MAYBE there is some metals in my substrate or something.


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## Drewet88

copper piping. Have you ever tried one of those copper tests to see how much metal might be in the water? 

Ghost shrimp aren't that hardy from what I remember. Maybe smaller amounts of metals hurt them quicker than other animals. 

I think you said earlier in the thread that you use Prime, I found this about Prime
The standard dose of Prime (1 mL/10 gallons) will remove:
Copper - 2.6 ppm in 10 gallons
OR
Lead - 8.5 ppm in 10 gallons
OR
Nickel - 2.4 ppm in 10 gallons
They say Or because that is the maximum it can handle. That information is from Seachem on a different forums that I visit. 

To bad all of those metals require different test kits. If the basement experiment doesn't help answer any questions maybe test the copper amounts. 

When you do check your Ph aim for 6.8-7.4 (thats what I read bettas like). Snails need it above 6.0 or their shells will start to deteriorate after a while but I read they like it around 8.0. And ghost shrimp like ph at 6.5-8.0. So it sounds like 7ish (close to neutral) is a good aiming spot. But, realistically I think stability is better and you should leave it where it naturally is as long as its in a comfortable range. 

*I'm just trying to throw more things out there to think about while doing the basement experiment.*


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## Teebo

I have not tested my tap for copper, but half the water in the 1 gallon is tap water with Prime, and all the water in the basement tank is also tap is Prime. 

I use about 0.15ml per gallon of top off water which is a little over the recommended. Are you saying it can not remove all 3 of those metals at their full ppm? If it were to remove all 3 it would be far less effective at each than if it only had to concentrate on one metal type?

I will certainly start looking into testing my water for metals I will ask my brother he is a plumber, I am starting a reef tank and this is a good thing to know anyway. 

From the liquid pH test kits I have tried that is the range I seem to be in anyway so without my digital I can not verify. 

Thanks!!

I just checked on the basement and the Nerite is on the glass, it ate all the algae on my back wall last night!! Holy crap!! Then entire wall is clean I need to make these work for my tank haha


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## Teebo

I think this is a substrate problem, I acclimated in a second Nerite into my basement tank and they are running around like crazy! My substrate does have Osmocote Plus in it that I layered in 6 months ago or more, which contains 0.05% copper. This may very well be the problem and it is making its way into the water column through the gravel. There are also gas bubbles that come from my substrate mostly in the center of the tank, releasing who knows what in the bubbles...no strong smell of methane that I can tell. 

I run carbon in none of my tanks because I thought it was a waste of money for the most part and could potentially remove nutrients or traces I am adding. However it will remove small amounts of copper I think from some debate I have read, so I added some to my HOB 12 hours ago and wow the water is clearer than it ever has been. I will wait 10 days and try a Nerite, if this does not work then I am going to try something like Seachem CupriSorb.

Just for more diagnosis in the meantime I went out and got 3 Ghost shrimp tonight and added them to the basement tank to see how well they do down there. The basement tank now has 3 Ghost, 3 Amano, 2 Nerite and 1 Mystery/Apple...everyone is happy and to make sure they stay that way I tossed in some New Life Spectrum and Zucchini. 

The least hardy shrimp and snails must be the least tolerable to the same currently unknown factor I am fighting.


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## FuzzyMuffin

Just throwing in my two cents. I've got a 5gal planted betta tank with two horned nerites, and I've recently (last month or two) added Osmocote Plus root tabs to this tank with no ill effects to my nerites. I also dose weekly flourish which has small amounts of copper, but my nerites are still fine. It's probably not as much fertilizer as you have in your tank, but that's my experience so far. In my other tank, where I use the tabs much more heavily and also have bubbles from the substrate, I haven't noticed any problems with my pest snails, other than my MTS coming out of the gravel more regularly, but that may be because I have a couple assassin snails on the prowl now. Maybe that helps, maybe it doesn't, but I thought I'd put it out there! lol


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## Drewet88

Somewhat off topic but I just bought the stuff to make Osmocote Plus root tabs, I got 0 size gelatin capsules does anyone know how often I should change them out? 

I dose CSM+B every other day and it contains a small amount of copper and I haven't seen an issue but like FuzzyMuffin said its probably not the amount of copper that could be in your substrate. The gas bubbles I have no experience on, I was worried about having them when I first set up my tank that's why I added the MTS. (I admit not my smartest idea but I regret nothing). 

Good call on the carbon if it does work it should help you finish narrowing down the problem. How often are you going to change out the carbon, I don't use it but I've read a lot of different time frames on how long it lasts. If you're starting a reef tank and your tap tests positive for copper you might want to look into a RO unit, especially if you're thinking about having live coral. 

Maybe you should take your sluggish racer out of the betta tank and see if it becomes more active in the basement tank.


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## Teebo

Its hard to say on the capsules, I say they last 6 months or so even under water. 

I refuse to put MTS in my tank because I like a smooth flat gravel without mixing any dirt into it. 

Good call on my Racer, I was about to move it just for the sake of I am sick of it haha. 

I will change my carbon every other week unless I end up buying more expensive carbon which I would rather do because I rarely touch the filter. I have a pico reef so I buy distilled water from Walmart (purple cap). 

Also I have dosed Excel the last few days in the basement, no problem. Those Nerites are absolutely amazing cleaners, they deserve a beer.


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## Drewet88

O wow so when I switch to diy ocmocote plus I only have to change them out every 6 months? 

Yea my MTS are always pulling some of my sand on top of my gravel but I'm ok with it. You could always just poke around a little in the substrate once a week or so with a chop stick to release the bubbles while they're still small and less likely to release a lot of whatever gas it is. 

Haha maybe the Racer will change your mind about it when you see it in the basement tank. 

O wow a pico reef I read the smaller the tank the harder it is to keep everything right. I do want to get one of those small nano tanks but it will most likely still be freshwater, I don't think I'm ready to attempt a reef tank yet. 

Yea my nerites do a great job in my tank they are beastly. I should start giving them some supplemental feeding since I don't see any algae for them to eat. Normal garden snails love beer nerites might too lol.


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## Teebo

Yup, I do not worry about overlapping them its okay to not have fertilizer in the substrate for a while most plants will be fine and start to show some signs, pair that with the 5-7 month range and you will be safe. The deeper you put them the longer they last. 

I release my bubbles when I push with the vac tube and sometimes I catch them in the syphon but rarely ever see it happen naturally. 

I have moved everything into the basement (all 5 Nerites) so that is good knews, Racer is next. 

The more I read the less hard is seems to be, check out ReefBowls some people use a vase that was my tipping point. If they can do that I can maintain a pico. 

Haha yeah the old bury a beer can level trick to catch slugs, I give them Zucchini but they only seem to like the skin...have been thinking about making snail jello soon.


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## Drewet88

Cool I wouldn't mind only needing to change them out ever 6 months or so. I only have 2 more API root tabs so I'll finish those off next week and switch to Osmocote in a month or so. 

The vac tube method works too, thats what I used initally before I started planting over the back of my tank where the sand is the deepest. Now I only vacuum the open areas so I hope the roots and MTS keep the sand stirred up enough to prevent the gas pockets. 

Yup. Keep me posted on how the Racer handles the transition. I'll look into ReefBowls and see if its something I can handle, but i'll probably have to stick to just planning. No room for another tank right now. 

I haven't tried zucchini yet, I gave mine lettuce the other day and they we're all over it (along with all the other snails in my tank). Next I'll try a small piece of carrot to see if they go after that.


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## Teebo

I shut down the 1G isolation tank, everyone is in the basement happy as can be. Even all 3 Ghost shrimp seem the be very healthy down there, they do not socialize with the Amanos they stay in their own corner which is interesting. 

After a day down there the Racer Nerite is doing the same thing just sits at the surface, preferably in the strongest current right at the filter output on a suction cup....I can not understand why it would like it there I think I just got a down syndrome Rabbit Nerite lol. At least it stays in the back of the tank and keeps the suction cups clean that are notorious for growing slime. 

Tomorrow I may jump the gun and move one of my least fav Nerites into my display tank with the carbon. 

If you feed iceberg lettuce there is no nutrition for them.


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## Drewet88

Yup maybe your Racer is always going to be a little off lol. At least it can do that one job all day everyday for you, clean the suction cups and guard the surface.

I was iceberg lettuce but only because I didn't have any romaine lettuce that day. I had tried the algae wafers but they will not go after them so I was just hoping I could find something they were willing to eat. I'm actually about to clean the nerite experiment tank now, after I clean it I'm going to try and see if they will eat some carrot. It's all I got until I go to the store tomorrow. 

How close are the temps between the two tanks?


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## Teebo

Let me know I may try a piece of carrot to mix things up, my tanks are 78F display and 72F basement.


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## Drewet88

They ate some of the carrot overnight. I mainly tried it since I heard a carrot won't foul the water for about 24hrs. I didn't blanche it just cut a small piece off (like the size of a pencil eraser) and dropped it in after cleaning the tank. I also dropped one in my DT. The one in the DT is gone, i'm not sure if it was the guppies, shrimp, nerites, or MTS since they were all going after it at one point. The one in the experiment tank is there and it looks like a bite or 2 might be missing but I'm thinking i should've microwaved it to make it softer. 
I'll retry tonight in the experiment tank after I microwave them for a bit. 

Hhmm the temps are close enough to me 6 degrees might be a lot to some ppl but I think nerites will be fine. 

As I was typing this my amazon package arrived. 3 pieces of cholla wood for my shrimp and my 0 size gel caps. I got super excited I thought it would be the plants I ordered...


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## Teebo

I may give the carrot a shot. I blanched an entire coined Zucchini then froze it. 

Whenever I order plants I go through ExtraPlant they are really great about their packaging and delivery time. 

I moved a Nerite upstairs last night to my display tank...it never closed up! I think I may move a few more up now and continue running carbon, I will do a white cup test to check if the carbon is being affective. Here is more food for thought...I was replanting one of my planters since I modified it with a strong magnet which replaced the suction cup. I noticed the clay hydroponic balls I am using as planter media is slightly magnetic they stick to the magnet!! This can not be good, they must contain a metal element I mean they are completely safe for growing plants but likely not aquarium safe! They are very porous and have likely added a lot of bio-media surface to my tank. Sediment does collect on the bottom of the baskets and when I lift them once a month or so it leaves that sediment in the water, I was told these do not shrink or break down though. However I have these same clay balls in the basement tank too and everyone is happy down there so...


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## Drewet88

Yup I recommend carrot after looking at the piece again this next morning, I left it in there and I can visibly tell something is slowly taking bites out of it. Maybe your snails will like it more, and I read apple snails like carrots too. I just recommend blanching it first, I still haven't tried softening it up but I'm sure they will love it more. I think I'm getting on board with trying to make some snail jello, I'm just worried about keeping it in the fridge lol (I can see my little cousins thinking they found jello). 

Do you have to thaw it after freezing or do you just let it thaw in the tank? 

What's the white cup test to check carbon effectiveness? 

Thats strange that they are magnetic, I always thought they were all clay. I wonder how it became magnetic. Have you checked the ones in the basement to see if they are magnetic too? Maybe they accidently got magnetized by something?


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## Teebo

I am unsure about the long term affects of inverts eating gelatin, but it would make feeding much easier and less messy. 

I throw it in frozen, it thaws very quickly in 78F water.

When your carbon becomes ineffective your water will have a yellowish tint, compare your tank water to fresh water side by side in white cups. 

I will check the basement for magnativity but I can not possibly see how they could be different. I did find one Nerite in the basement on its back but it was not dead, I flipped it over, and a Ghost shrimp died down there. Not sure if this is a bad sign or not, more time will tell.


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## Teebo

All my Nerites have been successfully moved into my display tank, I will make sure to continue running carbon. I have found one of them on my hanging planters above the water surface, it was spinning those pellets possibly eating things on their surface it reminded me of a car on jacks with the wheels spinning. The snail stayed stationary while it spun the clay balls so if they were really anything harmful it should be dead right now. I found one several inches above the planter on the back wall were there was never any water to grow algae I was concerned it wouldn't be able to find its way back down through the spaces between hangers so I moved it. None of them are closing up though so that is a good sign.


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## Drewet88

Cool. I was just thinking maybe something magnetized the little balls accidently, but if your nerite is hanging out on them and cleaning them for you it's probably a good thing. I found my tiger nerite female on her back a couple of times when I first got her but she's fine now. Maybe they just occasionally lose suction or something. 

My nerites are part of the reason I have a lid on my tank, I read they were escape artists. The 2nd reason I have a lid is the planted plus isn't water proof and I'm a little clumsy. Luckily they can hold moisture in for a long time so you don't have to panic when you see one out of the water but good thing you put it back, I'm not sure how good their sense of direction is though so good job putting it back in the water. 

Its pretty exciting knowing all the nerites made it to the display tank and have survived. You think its the carbon that's keeping them alive? Are you going to keep running it indefinitely?


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## Teebo

Okay bad news, a few days ago I woke up and everyone was on their backs half open and I had a heavy oil slick on the surface which is extremely rare for my tank. This happened about 4 days after I put the first two in and 2 days after I added another two, everyone was fine the night before and had been added in cycles 2 days apart so whatever it was affected them all overnight....pH swing? Maybe my carbon plugged up suddenly, I am not sure. I flipped them all over and they did not move, I tested the trap door pressure one responded the rest did not but no smell. One would move a little but not much, the next day I added them to the basement tank and two did die, but one that was not responding to the door pressure and closing completely did end up living through it and both have been fine in the basement for several days now. Not to mention the one I left in the basement right from the start so Nerites live in the basement tank WITH clay ball plant hangers fine, I also have been using Seachem products down there to test that variable...I even have a Ghost shrimp still! 

I did manage to catch a picture of one falling off the glass in the display tank, I do not know what to do next. I removed the carbon and the floss, added a new filter bag with new extra carbon I will run this and add a Nerite. I will order Purigen and run that instead of carbon in my display tank for now on, see if that works for Nerites because I am not doing my substrate over right now. CupriSorb will possibly be next after Purigen if that does not work and I am still not ready to redo the substrate.


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## Drewet88

Dang that's too bad and strange. I'm out of ideas hopefully the purigen works out for you, it looked like the carbon helped some. Keep us posted


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## Teebo

*I have not added Purigen yet, I did change out the carbon and dump 3x the amount in. The water has been very clear, I can barely tell the difference side by side in a white cup besides that only the fresh water had a glistening shine from the light. I moved a Nerite up from the basement and it moved around for a few days then slowed down, I added another one and its been all over and is still active. The first one I added that slowed down closed up a few days ago and has not opened, does not smell but may be dying in the shell. I am entertaining the idea of an allelopathy cause; one of my plants releasing a toxin. The one Nerite that did survive my tank trial last time, which has been in the basement for the better part of 2 weeks now finally died. I would find that thing on its back every single morning down there and after 10 days of flipping it over in the same spot I let it sit on its back. I did start using a drip acclimator unit for my snails as well:*










On a side note this tank is getting torn down soon and most of the plants and my Betta will be moved to a Marineland Contour 5 gallon tank so I will be testing the Nerites there and if I have a problem again (being a dirted tank) I will know if the Purigen worked since I will be running it all the time in that tank. I may pass my current tank to a friend without disturbing the substrate and see if she has any luck with Purigen.


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## Matuva

I have recently had a sad experience with nerites.

2 weeks ago, I was told nerites from the wild, coming from brakish estuaries can acclimate to fresh water trouble free. I rushed to a brakish spot and found some nice ones.
I acclimate them and put them in my tanks, shrimps and discus ones.















At the beginning everything was OK. The nerites were wandering all around or stay on algae spots, doing a very nice job in cleaning.









Things start to go weird after the 2nd day, in the shrimp tanks. These tanks are set with RO/rain water, with very low KH, opposite the discus tank set with tap water. So, in the shrimp tanks, the nerites first stay stucked on the glass, not moving, not eating, then, the day after, I found them laying on the substrat...

I pull them out from the tanks, install them in a container with brakish water, but I think it was too late, they then died one by one...

In the discus tank, everything seems to go fine. All the nerites but one seem to go fine. They continue wandering all around, can see they continue eating and have cleaned a lot of algae (very impressive), so I have good hope to succeed these ones.

I also remember that in the rivers, I found some black nerite with red mouth, which are full fresh water ones. I'll try to go and find some...

So, despite what was told to me, nerites are not so easy to keep. They seem really senstive to water parameters, at least as sensitive as shrimps...


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## Teebo

Thanks for the feedback! Sounds like maybe the KH needs to be higher in your case? What about temp differences? 

I decided to add Purigen, about 10min ago. Seems like a Brita filter for your aquarium. I will see what happens with the Purigen, I will pick up new Nerites next week after the Purigen has a chance to turnover my water enough.


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## Drewet88

I like that drip acclimator setup you have going, I might have to make something like that if I add more shrimp to my tanks later. I've been super busy with work these last few weeks so I had to just do the bare minimal to my tanks for the last few weeks but I'll be back on in more detail in about a week or so. Good luck I'll be back.


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## Teebo

*I think I found a potential variable, my atomizer. It does not seem to bother anything when running, however this atomizer unit appears to be oxidizing? There are bubbles in the chrome plating which I thought was going to expose rust but it did not. The blue circles are bubbles in the plating, the red circle is where I chipped it away and it exposed an unknown metal type...this may be leeching into my water column and causing all my problems!*


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## Drewet88

Thats crazy I have no idea what kind of metals it could be or if its leeching into your tank. I don't have a CO2 system what is the atomizer for?

I've been battling my own small war over here trying to figure out why I seem to have a dead guppy every morning. I've done so many water changes and cleaning even though I was sure nothing got into the tank to begin with and all my values were in perfect range since I'm trying to keep shrimp as well. Shrimp are fine guppies are dying.


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## JJ09

If that's what is causing the problem, how fortunate that you've found it! Sometimes it can just be a small thing, and I think most of the time it baffles us and we never really figure out what went wrong...

Incidentally, I think metals was a small issue for me, too. I had been using pieces of coathanger wire -the kind coated in white plastic/paint- to support my sliding lid. Every so often I would throw it away and put a new piece in, because rust starts to form on the ends (I am phasing out wire coathangers use for clothes). I never thought the amount of rust was enough to harm the tank inhabitants, nor did I think my betta looked affected. But since I ran out of hanger wire and just let the lid sag a bit between maint days (when I flip it over) my betta seems different. He hangs around more, resting on broad leaves during the day- I never saw that behavior before. And he started to build a bubble nest last week- the first time in two years!


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## Teebo

The atomizer creates fog on the water surface, has nothing to do with CO2. 

Interesting replies 

I started a new dirted tank, and Nerites are doing well in it! I noticed it shows some alkalinity when I test the water, where none of my other tanks contain any alkalinity at all. I think this is a buffer, and I am not sure how the alkalinity is being introduced to this tank. I have a very large piece of driftwood in there I assume that is where it is coming from? This may be a potential variable in the Nerite success, weird thing is they do not want to leave the driftwood and clean the glass, they are very active but stay on the driftwood.


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## payluder

Yesterday afternoon was the 3rd time I found my nerite snail outside the tank all dry and looks dead like the other times but once I drop it back in the tank I see it moving instantly. The other two time I found it on top of my power supply plug, lucky the little water it brings didnt short the outlets. I believe it crawl out at night and must be out of the tank for more than 12 hours at a time.


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## JJ09

We all want to share our own difficulties, don't we. Sorry it wasn't helpful any!
Nerites do seem to like driftwood. Mine lay eggs on glass and vallisneria, but no other plants. And definitely most of the eggs are on the wood.


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## Teebo

Wow! I wonder if its your water perimeters? That is a long time to be out of water.

I know they like driftwood, but I do not see any eggs, they just seem to like the wood. Not sure if they like eating the wood or not?


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## payluder

Teebo said:


> Wow! I wonder if its your water perimeters? That is a long time to be out of water.


I have a 17 gallon 
ammonia 0
nitrite 0 
nitrate 10 ppm
GH 9
kh 4
TDS after water change is 250 used aged tap water with prime and 1/4 recommended dose of salty shrimp gh+

I dose EI low tech and do water change 40% weekly with 50 + shrimps mix and 6 oto and 12 green tetras. 12 hours does seem very long but I read somewhere they can last up to a day outside the tank which is scary. I dont like the feeling each time I see it outside the tank.


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## Drewet88

Yup can agree nerites love driftwood. I usually have 1 on the glass and 2 on the wood 9 times out of 10 when I look at the tank. Its only been a few months but I can't see any damage to the wood if they are eating it. I think they just like whatever microalgae that tends to grow on DW. 

I've also heard nerites can last a while out of the water luckily I haven't found one out of the tank yet, I would freak out. Glad to hear the nerite was OK


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## Teebo

Does anyone have any input on the role of alkalinity and Nerite survival? I am still curious what the source of my alkalinity is and the only variable I can think of is the large piece of driftwood. Sadly I am still having no luck with my snails in the other display tank even using Purigen. I really do think it is a reaction from a surface plant, so when I pass that tank on I will add Nerites again and run it without surface plants to exclude that variable.


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## JJ09

Do you have dracanea among your surface plants? I know those are toxic to cats and children, not sure what affect they might have on snails.


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## Teebo

Good idea, but no I do not. I have it but it is outside the tank in a dirted hanger. 

Now that I have success in my NEW 5 gallon display tank, I am happy to say I have a healthy variety: Tiger, Zebra, and a Horned. The Tiger and Zebra are small (young) I will feed them if I have to since the tank is small and Amanos will steal their food anyway. 

*I wanted to add a 4th and I happened to find a healthy Nerite I have never see before!!!*


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## Drewet88

From the top it kinda looks like a helmet to me. Lol. Good to see you are having some good luck with the nerites. 

I was at a loss for what it could have been


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## Teebo

*It does remind me of a helmet lol. I am just glad everyone is healthy and happy, they get along well and are very active! Does anyone know if the horned Nerites will re-grow a broken horn??*


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## Teebo

I tried feeding carrot with no luck, I took a whole organic carrot and cut the tip off. Tossed it in and it sank, which I like compared to the floating zucchini that just falls apart. I have not seen a single snail on the carrot though.

EDIT: Flipped the carrot over and it was hollowed out! Today there are snails all over it, guess I spoke too soon! *Do carrots have all the nutrients they require?? *


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## Drewet88

Hmm. Just raw carrots? 

I have no idea if carrots have all the nutrients they need, I just try and switch it up and not feed the same thing everyday. Off the top of my head I would think they would also need something with a little calcium for shell health. Maybe try some collard greens, kale, or spinach and see if they eat it I do believe all of those have a good amount of calcium in them. 
Mine tend to let it sit there for a while too before attacking it but I always feed raw carrots so maybe they're just waiting for it to absorb some water and soften up a little.


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## Teebo

Just raw carrot, they devoured it within 3 days there was nothing left but the skin! Everyone was pooping orange lol. 

I do not feed daily, maybe weekly. Basically I find the snails the hardest to feed because of the thieving Amano shrimps. I tend to feed the shrimps algae wafer/tablets and I make sure to break it into many pieces so they can all grab one and swim around with it. If I put too much and they get bored with it, the snails get a chance to eat it. The raw carrot (I think I will peel next time) generally does not attract the shrimps, if it does they do not stay on it the way the snails do. I used to feed zucchini to the snails but it makes a mess, I REALLY need to put some time into making a "feel-all" gelatin food containing all types of vegetables, algaes, protein and frozen SanFran foods. Everyone can peck at it and get what they need for their diet, without making a mess!


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## Teebo

I bought some Kale, but I can already tell I will have the same problem as the zucchini, its going to float. 

I was thinking maybe a stainless steel clip I can weigh food down with?


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## Drewet88

Yea the Kale will float, a stainless steel clip or a suction cup should do fine. Kale is a little tough so maybe nuke it in the microwave a bit. Or just stick a couple pieces of gravel on top of it or tuck it under something in the tank to make it lay on the bottom. I usually just tuck mine in the gravel and then remove what isn't eaten the next morning.


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## Teebo

*So my snails are doing great, I swear driftwood is key to success for whatever reason. They are literally eating the wood, so I made gelatin food with a very high calcium makeup. My shrimp eat it all before the snails get a chance every single time, and I am starting to see the white spot at the tip of a few of my snails so they must need calcium. Can I water column dose Kent Marine calcium for their shells or will this not work/cause other problems in my tank? 

As a last attempt at getting them the gelatin food they need I built this feeding container, it looks rough but it will get the job done. This way they stay inside the same water chemistry the whole time where the shrimp can not steal their food (bastards). I used aquarium sealer to attach some rare earth magnets out of a hard drive, just make sure you cover the magnets fully or they will rust...I covered 3 times waiting 24 hours between coats. I left a gap on the bottom so the food will not fall through any holes, the gallatin food sinks quite nicely. I also had to cut off the rim against the back so it sat flush against the glass.*


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## JJ09

why did you put a magnet on it- is there no room in the tank for it to just sit on the bottom?


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## Teebo

No there is no room for it to sit on the bottom, my tank is very deep and narrow, covered in plants. This did not work anyway, for one putting the lid on causes them to get knocked around and end up on their backs inside even if they are attached to the sides they fall to the bottom on their back when you snap the lid on. Also, they have absolutely no interest in the gelatin food, and I am wondering if this is because it contains bloodworms and such. Maybe I need to make gelatin food with specifically nothing but greens and algae wafers. It smells strong and may deter them.


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## Drewet88

A+ for effort. That's a cool feeder you made for them too bad they didn't like the snail jello. Removing the blood worms might help I did notice when I lost a guppy a while ago that all the other snails in my tank were on its body or headed to its body but my nerites were happily cleaning the glass. 

I have no idea of ways to dose calcium into a tank besides cuttlebone. I know people have used many other things without issues but I've only tried cuttlebone and veggies so I can't help there. I do plan on trying this snail jello one day I'll just have to wait until I have some spare time.


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## Teebo

*Okay wow, what a long strange trip it has been! I finally, finally solved this after killing several handfuls of snails and Amano shrimp...I feel bad :/

That riparium setup you guys saw got upgraded from 8.5G to 15.8G and I built an entire external filtration loop...C02 reactor, UV, heater, etc. Even though I ditched the substrate and my fogger I still had issues. Snails go up in flames within 24 hours and shrimp last a few days to a week so I thought for sure it had to be the plants. 


















I started removing plants one by one until I got so fed up I removed them all for a month and did a chit load of water changes, nothing! So I removed all the substrate, and the driftwood, water change...nothing. So I was so curious that I took apart the external loop and threw an old HOB on there and kept a few plants in a single planter (Pothos, Fern, Spider) these plants I KNOW are safe. Still I killed everything, so I said FK this and turned that nice tank into a reef tank because I can not enjoy this hobby without Nerite snails they are just necessary. I continued the experiment with a 10 gallon tank without the clay pellets in the planters and guess what...everyone gets to live!!


















CONCLUSIONS: Metals/Copper was killing my snails. This started way back and the substrate and/or clay pellets sponged up and held the metals. It started as a slow snail problem and progressed into a rapid snail problem and a slow shrimp problem. From my experience Nerite snails are the most sensitive to metals, and Apple/Mystery snails can tolerate much more than a Nerite can. Amano shrimp are very hardy much more than a Crystal shrimp and likely in the hardiness class of a Red Cherry. Amano shrimp however are more tolerable to metals than a Nerite. The source of metal was the ultrasonic fogger AND the brass fittings I used on my external filtration loop on the UV unit. I will never ever use brass fittings again for an aquarium, and I should have thought more about that chrome plated fogger unit. Just to give you an idea of how toxic this tank was I had removed that driftwood and allowed it to dry out completely, I even boiled it, then used it in another very small tank and it killed a Nerite overnight.*


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## Ohiostater

I added liquid calcium to the tank in order to help the Nerites shells.......is there a chance I accidentally put in too much (5'ish ml) because over the next week almost all of them have died. I have a 55gallon long tank, two nice filters and perfect water conditions. I actually have 4 tanks all with nerite snails because I love how they keep the tanks clean. So, i know I have the proper setup, but I have never had a snail-a-geddon like this.


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