# Any experience with Substrate by AquariumPlants.com?



## IneedAbiggerTank (Jan 15, 2010)

By the way, I recently joined this site and I’m loving it; a lot of very valuable information and a very good opportunity to learn from a lot of experienced hobbyists. Thanks in advance for your help.


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## kid creole (Dec 25, 2008)

If you're willing to pay top dollar, flourite and Eco and the like are great.

If you're looking for the best bang for the buck, MTS and something like a turface cap is going to be CHEAP compared those optiions. That's what I'm going to do on my next tank.


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## IneedAbiggerTank (Jan 15, 2010)

Thanks Kid creole, I'm trying to avoid something too messy and that is why the substrate in question got my attention as an alternative to flourite or eco-complete, have you tried it?


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## alan j t (Feb 13, 2008)

i use it. i like it.
i got it in black and its uniform.
if you can get turface pro in black, then save your self 50 bucks and get it. its the same stuff as the name brand substrate. from what i hear on the forum.


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## IneedAbiggerTank (Jan 15, 2010)

Thanks Alan, it never crossed my mind that AquariumPlants.com's substrate could be the same stuff as Turface, they advertise the former as containing minerals and nutrients and rich in iron, and I thought turface had none of that. I'm very confused now.


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## kid creole (Dec 25, 2008)

IneedAbiggerTank said:


> Thanks Alan, it never crossed my mind that AquariumPlants.com's substrate could be the same stuff as Turface, they advertise the former as containing minerals and nutrients and rich in iron, and I thought turface had none of that. I'm very confused now.


Any substrate that really has a significant amount of nutrient _available_ to the plant are going to be mush or depleted quickly. So, you will need to either fertilize, or cap something mushy (like MTS).


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## IneedAbiggerTank (Jan 15, 2010)

Thanks Kid creole, I have no problem using something like flourite and fertilizing, I was just trying to find out if the substrate by AquariumPlants.com is comparatively as good as Flourite because it appears to be much cheaper; but now Alan mentioned that AquariumPlants.com's substrate is the same stuff as Turface pro, so, considering that it is advertised as containing minerals and nutrients and rich in iron, I am pretty confused now.


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## kid creole (Dec 25, 2008)

IneedAbiggerTank said:


> Thanks Kid creole, I have no problem using something like flourite and fertilizing, I was just trying to find out if the substrate by AquariumPlants.com is comparatively as good as Flourite because it appears to be much cheaper; but now Alan mentioned that AquariumPlants.com's substrate is the same stuff as Turface pro, so, considering that it is advertised as containing minerals and nutrients and rich in iron, I am pretty confused now.


You're not confused. it's almost as good. Flourite just isn't _that_ good. It does have minerals, nutrients, and rich in iron...it's just not that easily accessible to plants. But it is accessible. Some substrates are entirely neutral in this regard.

To answer your original question, Turface will probably not 'outperform' those other high end substrates. It will be pretty close to equal, and exactly equal if you are fertilizing.

Personally, I use flourite now, and I just want to change to have the experience. I have nothing bad to say about flourite. Everything we do in this hobby has drawbacks and bonuses. Sometimes it's cost, sometimes it's maintenence, sometimes it's reliability.

Say Turface or aquariumplants.com isn't the best? So what. Think what you can do in your tank with the money you save. heck, you could buy another tank with that kind of scratch.


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## Juicy19 (Mar 3, 2009)

I use Aquariumplants.com substrate. It is a fired clay substrate similar to flourite. As mentioned earlier, it is the same as turface. 

It's a good product. My only complaint is it is light and can be blown around. Once it is saturated though, i haven't had any issues holding freshly planted plants down. I do fertilize per EI.


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## IneedAbiggerTank (Jan 15, 2010)

Thank you very much everyone! How about particle size for turface pro, is it small enough for planting? is it a good size?


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## alan j t (Feb 13, 2008)

when turface is new and does not have that "bio film" it will be light, but after a few weeks its pretty good.
if you do use turface. use some npk sticks. and you should be ok.
plus with all the money you saved you can buy a better light or co2 equp:bounce:


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## IneedAbiggerTank (Jan 15, 2010)

Thank you very much for all your help guys. I guess my last comment would be that, if in fact AquariumPlants.com's substrate is the same stuff as turface pro, they are advertising it as it if were something much better than it is, and I don't like that very much. Or maybe they add something to it, who knows, but from what I hear, I'm glad I asked...even if it is cheaper than Flourite, what would be the point of buying turface, branded as aquarium substrate, only more expensive? But I had at least to give it a shot; it would have been nice if the product was what I thought it was. Thank you all for your help.


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## kid creole (Dec 25, 2008)

IneedAbiggerTank said:


> Thank you very much for all your help guys. I guess my last comment would be that, if in fact AquariumPlants.com's substrate is the same stuff as turface pro, they are advertising it as it if were something much better than it is, and I don't like that very much. Or maybe they add something to it, who knows, but from what I hear, I'm glad I asked...even if it is cheaper than Flourite, what would be the point of buying turface, branded as aquarium substrate, only more expensive? But I had at least to give it a shot; it would have been nice if the product was what I thought it was. Thank you all for your help.


One benefit to me would be that Aquariumplants.com is guaranteeing it is ok for use in the aquarium. Turface carries no suck claim, and as such, is liable to change the mix or the composition as it suits them. ap.com is pretty affordable, that may well be worth it for a buyer concerned about becoming the guinea pig.


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## IneedAbiggerTank (Jan 15, 2010)

Good point kid creole, thanks again


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## EdwardN (Nov 7, 2008)

Check my posts. I don't believe one word about 'superior' quality of one Turface over other. It is the price which is decidedly 'superior'. Probably because is in buckets and not in paper bags as any decent priced Turface cost!!!!

I have Turface as a substrate, soaked in fertilizers one uses in normal tank fertilization and covered by a layer of pool sand ( tiny gravel, to speak the truth...) and my plants growth in it is truly superior.

And especially because I did not became a victim of a sleek salesman...


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

kid creole said:


> One benefit to me would be that Aquariumplants.com is guaranteeing it is ok for use in the aquarium. Turface carries no suck claim, and as such, is liable to change the mix or the composition as it suits them. ap.com is pretty affordable, that may well be worth it for a buyer concerned about becoming the guinea pig.


The thing is... Aquariumplants.com (which is local and shady a hell, if you ask me) is just repackaging turface, so no, there is no other guarantee than that.


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## IneedAbiggerTank (Jan 15, 2010)

Thanks Edward, one thing that concerns me is that, considering that Flourite is already pretty light, if turface is even lighter it must be a pain in the neck to plant in it, isn't it?


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

After some time it isn't bad at all. You could cap it with sand if you wanted, but I think the sand would eventually work down. Just search turface here, to get the reviews from lots of people.


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## EdwardN (Nov 7, 2008)

*Turface*



IneedAbiggerTank said:


> Thanks Edward, one thing that concerns me is that, considering that Flourite is already pretty light, if turface is even lighter it must be a pain in the neck to plant in it, isn't it?


 I refer you again to my posts on the subject written in the past. You soak Turface for several hours ( I do in fertilizers) and it is not so 'light' anymore. Then I have it topped by tiny gravel ( pool sand) and I really plant in that gravel, so Turface is not coming up to the top. 

Later on, when I was removing all sorts of Amazon plants because they grew to some 3 ft lengths and shaded every other plant in my tank, I pulled out some Turface to the top, but it did not change anything, and after a light cover back with some gravel, the surface looks as it looked before. 

Turface is superior for anothe reason too: it lets percolate water column all the way to the bottom and ogen in it as well, preventing accumulation of gases from decomposition of organic material; letting fertilisers to the root sphere and it is a subject to colonisation by nitrifying bacteria. 

I used Turface since it came on the market in the beginning of 70' and alvays with the same...superior results.

By the way, if anyone grows any succulents, cacti included - Turface with a bit of peat makes also superior medium.


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## Grouchy (Dec 2, 2009)

I have AP.com substrate in my 40, Soil Master Select in my 55, and Turface All Sport in my 29 gallon.

There are no differences in the level of plant growth or water test results or effect on the fish.

The SMS and Turface were significantly less expensive. 

As others have stated, there are numerous posts here about AP.com, SMS and Turface (history, future). Lots of good reading.


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## IneedAbiggerTank (Jan 15, 2010)

Thank you very much everybody, all your help is much appreciated. In addition to all the valuable information learned, I have to say I'm pretty disappointed at AquariumPlants.com. Learning that behind all that "AquariumPlants.com's own Freshwater Planted Aquarium Substrate" and all those inflated statements on their website regarding “their” product, all there is is the company just repackaging turface! That is just not right!


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

You get a 'free' bucket with the fancy product ;-)

I have used Turface and Soil Master Select. 
GOOD
Lower priced. 
High CEC
I like the color of the black or 'charcoal'
Takes the KH out of your water, which may help. 
Lightweight (my poor back much prefers using this instead of heavier options)

BAD
Does not come with any fertilizer. (Easily remedied- with high CEC it will hold any fertilizer you add to the tank, and make it available to the roots)
Hard to plant, it is so light (So push the plants down to the bottom of the tanks and put a few pebbles over the stubborn plants)
May cloud the water (just about any substrate will- see below)
Lighter than sand or pebbles that you might want to use for paths. These materials can still be used, but I have found I need to set up a sealed retaining wall to keep the sand on one side and the SMS on the other. If I just make a row of rocks the sand seeps under and the SMS drifts over, until the tank has a layer of sand on the bottom, and the SMS on the top, sort of confined by the rocks. 

Set up the tank this way to avoid cloudy water:
Put the substrate, rocks and driftwood in the tank with no water or very little (an inch or so). Make all the hills and valleys. 
Then add only enough water to barely show, even in the low spots. 
Plant, misting often. 
Fill by pouring the water in slowly over a plate or a plastic bag. Allow the water to seep over the edge of the plate or bag.


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## IneedAbiggerTank (Jan 15, 2010)

Thank you very much guys


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## James77 (Aug 21, 2008)

IneedAbiggerTank said:


> Thank you very much everybody, all your help is much appreciated. In addition to all the valuable information learned, I have to say I'm pretty disappointed at AquariumPlants.com. Learning that behind all that "AquariumPlants.com's own Freshwater Planted Aquarium Substrate" and all those inflated statements on their website regarding “their” product, all there is is the company just repackaging turface! That is just not right!


Hate to say it, but there are plenty of products, especially in the aquarium hobby, that are just repackaged cheaper products. Baking soda is sold at amazing premiums as buffer in almost every fish store. Aragonite sand was sold at $30+ per bag, when identical stuff could be purchased at home depot as play sand for $3/bag. No pretty pictures though :icon_smil. So what if it is repackaged Turface-the shipping is free and no taxes.

I use the AP.com substrate in my tank, and I like it so far. One large bucket coverd 6 SF at about 2.5-3 inches. I put eco-complete underneath it, as well as some top soil. I planted a bunch of clippings I got from someone on this board, just quickly planting them to get them in the water, and none have pulled up. 

As for AP.com themselves, someone ^^ said they were shady, I have had zero issues with them. I use 2 of their regulators. One I bought used, and they were willing to service it under warranty. Im not downplaying anyone elses negtive experience, I just don't have the same. Any orders I have done were shipped quickly, and items were exactly as pictures on their site.


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## IneedAbiggerTank (Jan 15, 2010)

I get your point James but I feel that, if in fact Aragonite sand was sold at $30+ per bag, when identical stuff could be purchased at home depot as play sand for $3/bag, and if the people behind it were selling it as if it was something more than it really is, that just makes them as wrong.

But just in case I am getting the whole thing wrong, do you (or anybody else in the forum) know if AP’s substrate (or turface in general if it is the same) actually “contains minerals and nutrients and rich in iron”?, and, if it does, if these are in a form that is utilizable by plants? They advertise it with those words (in quotes here), immediately continuing with “Provides optimum fresh water aquatic plant growth” as if one was a consequence of the other. 

And I’m asking this because they also say that it “outperforms ALL other planted substrates (guaranteed)”, and I was under the impression that for example, even if not by much, Flourite was better than Turface because it contains minerals in a form that, to some degree, is usable by plants, whereas Turface (by itself) is pretty sterile. I was under the impression that people were using Turface because, even though it’s not “as” good as Flourite, it is much cheaper and can be supplemented with fertilizer; hence getting comparable results but much cheaper, which is particularly good for people with large tanks.
Again, I may be getting the whole thing (or part of it) wrong, and if I am I would love to know it, simply because if I’m getting it wrong and what AP claims about their substrate is correct I’d love to buy it and use it… or if what they claim is true not only for their substrate but for Turface in general, I think I would only use Turface from now on.
In the other hand, if I am not getting it wrong, then I’d have agree with Over_stocked’s reply and admit that they are kind of shady.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

I have Turface and SMS in several tanks. I dose CSM+B and chelated iron, and macros. 
Tests for iron in the water have been inconclusive. Mostly seem to say 0, but sometimes the test turns colors that are not on the chart. 

IMO the SMS and Turface MIGHT be removing the iron from the water and holding it for the plants. I KNOW these products will remove the carbonates from the water, but not the Ca and Mg that I measure as GH. So it will remove some things. 
The other option is that the plants are grabbing all the iron I add almost as fast as I add it. I am not seeing iron deficiency, even when I miss dosing, so I think the substrates are stocking up on several of the micros, probably macros, too, then the plants are taking advantage of this supply of nutrients. 
IMO this is what having an active substrate is for: The cationic exchange capacity becomes a reserve of fertilizers. 

Whether the product in the bucket already has any of these fertilizers I do not know. I am saying that I think I have charged up my substrates over time, a little bit at a time over the years they have been in the tanks. The Soil Master Select in use the longest has quit removing the carbonates. In simple terms it is filled up with... something. All carbonates? Or other things as well?

In short, I like these materials, both for the price, and for how they are working for me in my tanks. Yes, there are some things that are not perfect, but each substrate will have its problems.


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## kid creole (Dec 25, 2008)

IneedAbiggerTank said:


> I get your point James but I feel that, if in fact Aragonite sand was sold at $30+ per bag, when identical stuff could be purchased at home depot as play sand for $3/bag, and if the people behind it were selling it as if it was something more than it really is, that just makes them as wrong.


Henry Ford invented the automobile and built a giant auto company named after himself, Ford Motor Company. Ford was a pioneer in the automobile, beginning in 1908 with the Model T. He also is credited with inventing the assembly line method of production, a method that lowered costs drastically in not only the automotive industry, but several other companies. Ford is said to have been a tightfisted man, despite being worth over $188 billion. One time, a part broke in the electrical generators of his factory. Ford called Charlie Steinmetz, who built the mighty generators, to come fix the problem. Steinmetz came out to the factory, toyed with the generators for a couple hours, then had them up and running again. Ford was very pleased until he received Steinmetz's bill-$10,000. Shocked, Ford inquired of Steinmetz why his bill was so high for only a couple hours of tinkering. Steinmetz replied: "For tinkering with the generator: $10. For knowing where to tinker: $9,990." Ford paid Stenimetz the entire $10,000.

True or not, this story has a lot to do with what we pay for the things we buy in this hobby. Not all of us know what to put in out tanks. We pay big money for someone who does to tell us what to do with it. There are also snake oil salesmen, and there is a difference between the two. ADA, I'm looking in your direction.


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## James77 (Aug 21, 2008)

kid creole said:


> True or not, this story has a lot to do with what we pay for the things we buy in this hobby. Not all of us know what to put in out tanks. We pay big money for someone who does to tell us what to do with it. There are also snake oil salesmen, and there is a difference between the two. ADA, I'm looking in your direction.


Exactly. A good chunk of hobbyists don't want to look around, or find out about, what materials are what and where to buy them the cheapest in bulk. The premium you pay AP for repackaged Turface, if it is just that, is for the convenience of it being sourced, packaged and shipped to your door. 

Do they put anything in it or is it the best substrate ever because of it? I don't know. I wouldn't expect them to exactly say "this is just repackaged turface, but it does grow plants well". Unless someone has analyzed the AP substrate, it is hard to say if they added anything to it. You could ask AP, IDK what response you'd get.

That repackaged aragonite sand was called Southdown sand, almost identical to Caribsea oolitic sand IIRC. But being repackaged into smaller bags costs money, as does shipping it through distributors and freight companies- on top of that the LFS retails it for probabaly double what they paid to pay for the brick and mortar, employees, taxes, etc. So, it is not really shady and happens everywhere. For the same price you'd pay for a bag of gravel, you could get literally a ton of it at the gravel pits.

The poster that said they were local and shady, I would like to see him elaborate a bit more on that.


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## snoz0r (Jun 6, 2008)

Can't speak for the AP.com substrate, but I HAVE ordered plants from them quite a few times. As far as that goes, they always got here on time or before, packaged EXTREMELY well and the plants themselves were in great condition/looked awesome.

So, atleast in that aspect I can vouch for them.


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## Franzi (Dec 7, 2009)

I'll give some props to AP.com too. I use their substrate, ferts and bought plants from them. All I can say is that everything is growing out of control and the plants arrived in great shape.

The only crappy thing is that their liquid fertilizer has ZERO information about what's actually in the bottle, nor does it have any dosing instructions. Switching to EI next week will solve that problem...at least I got the cool bottle.


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## thewesterngate (Jan 22, 2010)

Very quick question, since I'm also using AP. All debate aside, I know it needs to be rinsed, but also that the water will probably never run clear, and a little cloudiness never hurts because it clears in the long run inside the tank.

My question is, after it's rinsed, should I lay it out to dry all over again, or put it into the aquarium damp? It seems like it would defeat the purpose of washing it just to dry it out again. Thanks for any input. :]


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## smp (Dec 6, 2009)

I rinsed mine once and put it into the tank wet. I filled the tank by laying a plate on the substrate and then a small bucket on top of that.

After filling, the water was a little cloudy. At the time I had 2 Penguin 350's on the back of the tank (90 gal).

Water was crystal clear in 2 days and has stayed that way since.

Plants are growing VERY WELL in their substrate.

It's a tad light and the fish uproot things every now and then, but I like the color (Natural Amazon) and the texture.


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## thewesterngate (Jan 22, 2010)

smp said:


> I rinsed mine once and put it into the tank wet. I filled the tank by laying a plate on the substrate and then a small bucket on top of that.
> 
> After filling, the water was a little cloudy. At the time I had 2 Penguin 350's on the back of the tank (90 gal).
> 
> ...


Thank you for the quick response! I just finished rinsing (as well as I can) one 5 gallon bucket and needed to know soon.


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## smp (Dec 6, 2009)

Don't over rinse. I think twice is the max.


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## bunnie1978 (Jan 22, 2010)

Turface Pro League Grey is about $20 for I believe 25lbs. That's really cheap, and it's made out of Montmorillinite clay. High iron content. It's made out of the same stuff that Oil-Dri (auto section - $3.50 at walmart) but it's fired at a higher temperature so it's a darker color. And lasts longer. But Oil Dri is great, soft neutral colors, but it's high in silicates, which I suspect Turface or SMS is too. I don't know though. I've been using Oildri for about 3 months in 5 tanks.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

I pour in Soil Master Select, dry, no rinsing, or else wet it in the bucket to avoid breathing the dust, but not rinse and dump the water. 
Fill as per Steve: pour water in slowly over a plastic bag. 
Very little clouding, just a faint haze that mostly clears by the next day, and is absolutely clear in 48 hours. 

I have not had major problems with Diatoms (indicators of silica) in SMS tanks. (or in Turface tanks). Sure a little shows up here and there, but just as much in tanks with gravel or pool filter sand (known silica source). It never seems to linger, Mollies and many Loricariads eat it. Worst case I had was in a new glass tank using old coral sand as a substrate. But another new glass tank had almost none, using new EC and new SMS.


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## Jlw (Jan 30, 2010)

"Has anybody used this substrate? Their website claims that it “outperforms ALL other planted substrates (guaranteed)”. Their website also claims that 5 gallon bucket of their substrate (sold at $64.99) will cover 4 sq ft at a depth of 3" (a 55 gallon aquarium measures 48" by 12" or 4 sq ft.), and that this is equivalent to 6 bags of "eco-complete”. They claim that Eco-complete takes 120 lbs (6 bags) to cover the same area, at a cost of over $180.00.

I have never used Eco-complete, but I heard it is pretty good, I do have used Flourite and works very well for me, additionally it looks pretty nice. I guess my only complaint would be that it is very light and therefore not very easy for planting (keeping new plants in place). Over all, I love Flourite, but I have to say it gets pretty expensive.

I am interested in any comments (not coming from the company that makes and/or sells it) regarding AquariumPlants.com’s substrate because it seems a little too good to be true that a product that “outperforms” all other substrates for planted tanks would be so much cheaper, I am pretty skeptical sometimes. But then again I wouldn’t want to miss it if this is true, all products deserve a chance and I certainly deserve to save the money LOL. 

Even if it doesn’t “outperform” all others, but it is as good or comparatively as good as Flourite (or Eco-complete if you guys think is as good as fluorite, I just haven’t used it), it would be a pretty good deal at that price, and I would like to know about it.

I want to make VERY clear that I am not promoting ANY brand of substrate; I am just a hobbyist trying to find the best possible substrate at the best possible price (or at least the best possible deal for my money), and therefore seeking advice from fellow hobbyists. Please, if you work for the company that makes the substrate in question, don’t reply to me telling me that your product “does outperform all others” (I already read that in your website) or why... true or not, I’d like to hear the opinion of unbiased sources, people who has used it, fellow hobbyists. Thank you very much and I apologize for the lengthy post." 


Do NOT buy this stuff, It is TOTAL CRAP. I bought 8 square feet for my 90 gallon and it doesnt grow anything, Seriously, Dont waste your money, Go with something else that is proven for you.


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## VadimShevchuk (Sep 19, 2009)

I use eco complete in my tanks. Great to work with since it doesnt cloud and has a nice color/texture to it. Only thing i would change for it is amazonia 1. I also wanted to try oynx sand from seachem. looks nice but i dont know how it goes. Intresting comments on this topic. =D


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## James77 (Aug 21, 2008)

Jlw said:


> Do NOT buy this stuff, It is TOTAL CRAP. I bought 8 square feet for my 90 gallon and it doesnt grow anything, Seriously, Dont waste your money, Go with something else that is proven for you.


This is a pretty ridiculous statement. Many have had plenty of good results using AP substrate. People also have had great results from using Turface, which is pretty much what the AP.com substrate is. 

Saying it does not grow anything is pretty vague. There are other factors which grow plants as well- lighting , fertilizer, CO2. Please explain your setup and what equipment you were using, as well as what was happening to your plants.


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## alan j t (Feb 13, 2008)

that stuff is not crap,i use it with good results.

james ,nice to see people from RI here more often.
i was raised in RI for most of my life


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## Jlw (Jan 30, 2010)

I gave the guy my opinion on the Substrate he asked about, Nothing wrong with that. im in the process of siphoning this junk out of the tank now. I have 4x65 compact lights, When I have more time, I will post more about my tank. Im in the process of putting ada aquasoil with sand capped with gravel and I will eventually put in a Co2 system, but even without the C02, I would bet that it will grow plants better than the AP stuff, I also tried putting Iron and Trace in the soil as directed and the plants still did not fourish, only died. I think its junk and thats my opinion, You're welcome to think whatever you want.


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## gene4christ (Oct 25, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Jlw*  
_Do NOT buy this stuff, It is TOTAL CRAP. I bought 8 square feet for my 90 gallon and it doesnt grow anything, Seriously, Dont waste your money, Go with something else that is proven for you.

OK I am confused given light and a place to put there roots down plants will grow in just about anything granted they will do better and thrive in better soil but they live in even very poor soil if the other elements are there in right order light fert and water quality ? 
Now that being said the better the soil the better the plants will do and they will live longer and look better for sure but to say that poor soil won't grow anything is a bit of a stretch should at least grow alga :icon_roll
Gene4Christ 
_


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

gene4christ said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jlw*
> _Do NOT buy this stuff, It is TOTAL CRAP. I bought 8 square feet for my 90 gallon and it doesnt grow anything, Seriously, Dont waste your money, Go with something else that is proven for you.
> 
> ...


Basically it is overpriced, marked up Turface. They claim a nutrient level but I do not believe it for one second.


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