# my first planted tank...please help :/



## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

I've had my tank for a few months now and am getting frustrated with my plants. They are not dying, but don't look healthy are are not growing.

TANK: 20gal 24Lx13wx17h
LIGHT:18" 15watt full spectrum
SUBSTRATE: 1/2 eco complete substrate. 1/2 quarter inch stones
FERTILIZER: Flourish Seachem. Weekly doses
TEMP: always right around 79 degrees
PH: around 7, but just ordered an API Pro kit to replace test strips
All other tests seem to be in normal ranges....according to test strips
FISH: 7 fish, 3 red cherry shrimp. just lost my Oto Cat 
PLANTS: 2crypt parva, 1rangeri sword, 2bronze wendtii, 1lutea, 3noname grasses

My main question is why my plants arent growing. lights are on a 9hr cycle, I use weekly flourish seachem doses, weekly 25%-40% water changes always with conditioner....is it the lights? I just ordered a Co2 diffuser to go with my DIY Co2 system which will be in in a few days.
If you tell me to get better lights please give me some recommendations and/or links....I've been reading and shopping for the past couple nights and am really not sure which way to go. Theres so many options and brands and I don't want to buy the wrong one. Aqueon doesnt make a good versatile hood, so I'm ready to make a decent investment.
ANY advice will be MUCH appreciated!!!


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## mitchfish9 (Apr 30, 2012)

Definitely upgrade the lights! And if you are going with the pressurized co2, upping the lights, as well as upgrading to a dosing regimen(you can google EI dosing). Theres tons of options for lights depending on what you want to spend, but I would look at Hoppy's article in the Lighting section on this website. Learn about PAR, then make a light decision based off of that knowledge. But the light is the main problem your having right now in my opinion.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Thank you Mitchfish! always nice to have reassurance. guess I'll jump into research mode and try to learn at least the basics. And I'm experimenting with the yeast and sugar Co2 system. I looked at pressurized and its def out of my price range. I actually set it up 4 hours ago with just a regular air stone till i get my diffuser in, and it looks like it about ready to start bubbling already. being cautious with it though.
as far as dosing goes, is there a basic 'all in one' mixture you would recommend? instead of buying everything seperately....

nice bowfront btw! that size will be my next buy cuz this tank is unfortunately a joint financial effort with my gf.....so she has to approve with all the plants i get.....and she doesn't like my 'overplanting' ideas....


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## Redtail84 (Nov 27, 2012)

Lighting options are pretty versitile with this type of tank. I personally am running 2 x 20 watt LED flood lights over my 20 long and am getting great results with the lights, DIY CO2 and twice weekly dosing of Flourish comprehensive. If you want to go T5 HO, you can start looking around online for a 24" fixture. there are several out there. I don't really have any experience with T5. I just know that I've seen a lot of different options.


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## CoffeeLove (Oct 31, 2012)

I have a dirted 20gal long tank with two dome reflectors with I think 13watt cfls. No co2 and good growth. 

---
I give my fish coffee


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

thank you redtail. i have been looking at the T5 lights. would love LED, but theyre super expensive to get LED's that will actually benefit the tank. I'll def look into the Flourish Comprehensive too!
I have a while to do research for my next tank, but do like the idea of a dirted tank like coffeelove has 
For anyone reading....are there any types of moss or a ground cover that would do good in a very low light situation? I'm thinking of having a cave setup in my next tank


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## Mantis992 (Feb 13, 2013)

jonnyboy said:


> thank you redtail. i have been looking at the T5 lights. would love LED, but theyre super expensive to get LED's that will actually benefit the tank. I'll def look into the Flourish Comprehensive too!
> I have a while to do research for my next tank, but do like the idea of a dirted tank like coffeelove has
> For anyone reading....are there any types of moss or a ground cover that would do good in a very low light situation? I'm thinking of having a cave setup in my next tank


Check out the 24 in finnex fugeray or possibly the finnex ray 2


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

i like both of those actually! currently researching and pricing out the "LEDgroupbuy" DIY kits. satisfaction of building it yourself, and they look great. read nothing but good things about the site. thank you for the recommendations though!


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

I have a problem with plants not growing. And a similar Sword symptom. I dosed potassium and it has helped a little. But I had a plant with pinholes before I dosed. I think I'm missing something. Lighting is ok.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Django, Look into Flourish Seachem. They have many different dosage options. I'm still in the learning stage, but it sounds like you aren't giving enough nutrients. Mitchfish told me to look into EI dosing, (http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilizing/15225-estimative-index-dosing-guide.html) which is what you ultimately need to do to keep a healthy planted tank. I'm going to try going by these guidelines to see what happenens. I also made a DIY Co2 system that is currently on 24/7 and have been watching my buds start to grow faster already!


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

Thanks for the info Jonnyboy.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

So I went with the finnex ray 2 LED lights, and My amazon sword buds are growing a noticeable bit each day. still have lots of brown and pin holes on the leaves though. Will they go away? seems like its getting worse....or should I be dosing twice weekly?

Also, the day after I installed the lights my plants were pearling! next day I noticed alot of green hairlike algae starting all over the plants. Is that due to improper dosing or is it normal for a significant light change?

I'm looking for personal preferences on EI dosing please. Should I buy all my fertilizers seperately? or gradually switch from Flourish Seachem to a different fertilizer?

THANK YOU FOR ANY HELP!!! I'm still a wicked noob....


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Here's a pic of the algae. I'll post a better pic of the plant once I'm home. There's also a soft white algae on the glass, and brown algae on the substrate/gravel. Gonna pick up one or two more oto cats to go with the one I already have and maybe some amano shrimp


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## kclone (Nov 11, 2011)

You went from a low light tank to a high light tank overnight! If your tank isn't heavy planted, algae will start to grow with the new light. I'll let other experts chime in, but you may need more CO2.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

just read a little about neutral density filter sheets to reduce the light. I'll get some tomorrow and whatever else the experts may suggest. thanks kclone!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

The crypts need richer substrate. Seachem Tabs are the best. Cheapest at LNT.com for they don't have any shipment charges.

I would add a siesta period of 4 hrs. Lighs on 4hrs 2xs.

What about Co2? Cheapest route is to dose with Cidex diluted. Excel contains 1.5%  Glutaraldehyde.  Excel alternative is Cidex 2% Glut matched to excel is dilluted 3:1 solution which is 75% metricide/ 25% water. Then dose 10ml daily until it dies. If you don't have fish in the tank lower the water and dose.

For the lights you might want to hang them to decrease the light to make it a low tech tank. Hoppy has info on that. Also Hyzer made his 29G tank with a T5O light strip 

You basically need to decide if you are going to keep low tech or high tech. High tech is high maintenance and required injecting Co2. With high tech you can have red plants


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Mr. Hilde,
Thank you for the pointers! I was going to get rid of the crypts for something that will do better with my poor quality substrate. This is basically an experimental tank with my gf. She picks the fish I get some plants. So don't want to spend too much more money on it. I don't mind maintenance though.

I will try doing a 4hr cycle with the lights. How long in between the 4hr intervals?

If I lower the power of the lights wouldn't my DIY Co2 system and some EI dosing with KNO3, KH2Po4, and trace elements be sufficient? Im only gonna buy plants requiring moderate light, so I know that's limiting but it's not a big deal. I know the Co2 helped cuz I had that going before I got the new lights and noticed the new growth sprouting faster.

I basically want to keep my plants healthy and growth would be nice too. I now know overdid it with the lights, but using some 'neutral density filter sheets' would help right? I appreciate the help! I enjoy working on my tank, but don't have alotta money I can throw at it

Thanks


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## mitchfish9 (Apr 30, 2012)

jonnyboy said:


> Mr. Hilde,
> Thank you for the pointers! I was going to get rid of the crypts for something that will do better with my poor quality substrate. This is basically an experimental tank with my gf. She picks the fish I get some plants. So don't want to spend too much more money on it. I don't mind maintenance though.
> 
> I will try doing a 4hr cycle with the lights. How long in between the 4hr intervals?
> ...


I answered the question you asked me, just to let you know. 

Have you started dosing? Because that could be your algae problem. Finnex ray 2 is not an overwhelming amount of light especially with DIY co2. Now I think you just need ferts really bad!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jonnyboy said:


> I will try doing a 4hr cycle with the lights. How long in between the 4hr intervals?
> 
> If I lower the power of the lights wouldn't my DIY Co2 system and some EI dosing with KNO3, KH2Po4, and trace elements be sufficient?


Looks like you have the beginnings of BBA. Imbalance of Co2 causes that. A 4hr siesta helps balance Co2 with light output.
What is the filter output? How is the circulation where the algae is?

Didn't know you were injecting Co2. You can grow a lot of different plants when injecting Co2. Good possibility lowering the lights would work. It is a balancing act and the lights are the engine. Check out hoppy's threads on par of lights. Could you post a full view picture.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Sorry Mitchfish I had alot of questions. I'm pretty much following your advice with the lighting.

And I just did a water change and dosed with Flourish excel and flourish comprehensive. Should I be getting something for macro elements as well? My DIY Co2 is slowing down and I still haven't gotten my diffuser in the mail...


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Hilde, As I told Mitchfish, my Co2 is basically non exhistent right now. I dosed flourish comprehensive and excel after a water change tonight. Should I take the Co2 out completely until I can keep it steady and actually have a diffuser?

I also replaced the dying crypts with a couple dwarf baby tears. And i added the plants in the back....don't remember what my LFS called them. And three amano shrimp to maybe help control the algae burst a little.

I truly appreciate you guys helping me and sharing your knowledge and opinions!!!


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Actually I don't know the name of the plants in the back middle(newly added) or the ones in the back left


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

I don't see the algae in the full shot. Which plant is it on. 

Your light is not very strong. Looks like the light I get from a 10w flood light, which is medium low light. With Seachem excel you have to dose at least every other day. I would dose at least 10ml daily until the algae on the plants starts turning brown.

The plant in the middle is Rotala Macradra v narrow leaf[ The addition of Seachem iron would help it stay pink.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Well Im temporarily lowering the power with paper. It's much less powerful than it was. 

And thank you for pointing out the plants

Here's a closer look at the algae. It's growing mostly on the sword

I'll try to get that pic up soon as possible. It's not letting me right now

Thanks for more pointers!


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Most of the algae growth is on this sword.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Yeh that is BBA. It loves the crypts. I had a constant problem when my tank was new. Siesta period, excel and KNO3 helped me in the beginning. Have you checked your nitrates?


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Thanks! I mixed the bronze ones in with the regular. And awesome, hopefully I can balance it out soon. And I check them weekly. So far they've ways been around 20ppm


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jonnyboy said:


> I check them weekly. So far they've ways been around 20ppm


That is at the max level range quoted by Rex Griggs.

Mine got up to 40 when I was over feeding my fish. Water changes was the only that lowered it.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Hilde said:


> That is at the max level range quoted by Rex Griggs.
> 
> Mine got up to 40 when I was over feeding my fish. Water changes was the only that lowered it.


Just tested using the API pro kit and my results were,
PH- 6.8 to 7
Ammonia- 0
Nitrites- 0
Nitrates- 0
GH-
KH- 

The algae has def stopped or at least slowed down.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Hilde said:


> Yeh that is BBA. It loves the crypts. I had a constant problem when my tank was new. Siesta period, excel and KNO3 helped me in the beginning. Have you checked your nitrates?


Oh I thought you said, 'I love the crypts' hence the thank you haha


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Just an update for anyone still interested or reading. Did a big water change/cleaning/light adjustment/Co2 change Saturday. Been waiting to do all this because I'm treating the tank for mouth rot right now. Seems to be under control though. 

The finnex ray2 led light is now hanging over tank making it 20" over substrate. According to Hoppy's article and estimates that puts me at 50 par. Might raise them a little more depending on algae growth. 

Running two DIY Co2 generators that make a little less than 1 bubble per second. Still haven't seen my diffuser I ordered 3 weeks ago.....so have the bubbles going up into a pocket in the driftwood to help the Co2 dissolve better.

Going to order the smallest power head I can find to help make better circulation in the tank. And suggestions? Looking at the hydor koralia 240 right now. Don't want too much current. Also going to get some seachem iron to add with my dosing.

Dosing flourish comprehensive twice weekly, and excel every other day now that I have the Co2 back.

Only new growth I've noticed is on my rangeri sword and those leaves look good. Any leaves on all the plants that aren't new don't look very healthy though....is that normal that thay arent coming back with the new lighting? (I had horrible low lighting for a while)


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## asuran (Oct 12, 2007)

finnex ray2 is too bright, you can try to add some frogbit to your tank or adjust the height of the light,
the eco complete is just insert, doesn't provide nutrients, dosing flourish is not enough
pls refer to EI(google) and
http://www.sudeepmandal.com/hobbies/planted-aquarium/low-tech-planted-tank-guide/


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Yeah so I will raise the light some more and do more tea search on EI dosing. Anyone know of a link they can share that explains what different nutrients actually do for the plant? I want to be able to understand all this inside and out!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jonnyboy said:


> Yeah so I will raise the light some more and do more tea search on EI dosing.


I would leave your light where it is. It is just a little brighter than mine is over my 29G. The rotala will have better color with the light as it is. 

For ferts I would just add Seachem iron for the rotala to get more pink in the leaves. The crypts could use some API root tabs. Cheapest here. No need for the EI fert plan for the plants that you have. 

Why not put the co2 tube below the intake of the filter? That is what I have read that many do. Also can put it in the into a powerhead.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Thank you hilde! I will most likely get some root tabs along with the iron. And I did have the co2 going into the filter intake tube but it didn't seem to make any difference. Tough to tell when I don't have a Co2 indicator. It would also make loud noises which got annoying when I was trying to sleep haha!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jonnyboy said:


> Tough to tell when I don't have a Co2 indicator.


In the DIY section you may find a DIY indicator. Think I saw 1 there made with plastic ball from toy machine.


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## rowdaddy (Jan 20, 2012)

IDK if your still having growth issues, but here's my 2 cents

Up the lights.

Substrate fertilization.



I am Rowdaddy. 
SC Aquaria

75 Community
20H Community
20L Convict "Bedroom" 
20L Growout
10gal RCS
1.5gal in progress
55 gal Paludarium/Vivarium coming soon


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

I don't mind spending $10-$20 for an indicator. Already found one on amazon. And I think if I fertilize the substrate(which I've never done) it will help. The only plants that haven't shown new growth over a reasonable amount of time are the narrow leaf, and the crypts...which are slow growing anyways. So not too worried about growth, mainly healthy looking leaves staying healthy


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jonnyboy said:


> I don't mind spending $10-$20 for an indicator. Already found one on amazon.


Try Ebay. May not have shipping cost.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

I finally got my glass nano Co2 diffuser the other day. It's been installed with a fresh mixture in my two Co2 generators for more than a day now....still no bubbles. Is this one only supposed to be used with pressurized Co2? I did notice that it was extremely difficult to blow air through it when I installed it....wicked frustrating since it took 4 weeks to be delivered....


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Nvm. I figured it out


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

I'll try to keep this short....but having plant problems again.
My rangeri sword which has never done well, is doing worse. Holes/brown spots on leaves(new or old) and black algae growing on them. Broad leaf has also never done too well is no longer growing, and has always has a 'wrinkly' look to the leaves. My red melon sword has actually done very well at times is looking sickly with leaves dying, wrinkling a little, and black algae on it. The crypts have a bunch of algae on them, but no change with them. They always have a wrinkled look, but I think they're supposed to. The only plant doing well still is the rotala. Also have alotta green/brown algae on bottom

Dosing seachem's flourish, trace, excel, and potassium. Have 11 fish, and 4 amano shrimp. 20 gal tank, with two quiet flow pumping 200gal/hr. temp 77. Par at about 50-55. Lights are on 4hrs, off 2hrs, and then back on for 4hrs. Was running 1 bubble every 4 seconds with my DIY Co2 and diffuser which I've had off for almost a week now. No change in anything from that.

Only recent change I've made is adding the second filter. As always, any help is much appreciated!


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

I am using root tabs btw. They didn't seem to help anything aside from the rotala


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

I put a new root tab under my melon sword a week or two ago and it's putting out all kinds of white roots and 2 new leaves, in the midst of a Cyanobacteria bloom. So I think they work, maybe take a week or two.

I don't know PAR values off the top of my head, but check out the thread on PAR posted by Hoppy and look at the tank in terms of brightness.

Every staggered light description I've read was 4 on, 4 off, 4 on. I don't know that that has anything to do with these problems. It sounds like perhaps one or more of the NPK nutrients is too low, or micros need to be at a higher dose. It has been difficult for me too figure out that kind of problem in my tank. Following is a visual of plant nutrient deficiency symptoms. 

http://infographics.myaquacalc.com/?p=333

Nutrient Calculator: http://calc.petalphile.com/


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

I've been using the root tabs and am due for my second usage. It's probably co2 deficiency....I'll have to get an indicator and find a better way of regulating a consistent bubble count. That diagram is nice though! Thanks for that

Any opinions on the seachem plant pack? I don't want to dose daily, so I'm avoiding dry ferts. I like seachem, they're straightforward and easy to use.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Does it matter if I add all my seachem products to my weekly water change or should I spread them apart? I'm doing a 40% water change every 10 days or so.

So I was thinking of dosing the comprehensive, trace, and excel with my water change. And a couple days later add the NPK dose.

Still have pretty bad algae on substrate and some on glass which is the main reason for my water change every 10 days. I'm hoping I can stretch that to a water change every 2-3 weeks....should I just keep raising the lights after every wc till Im happy with it? I'm at about 45-50 par and have 1 bubble every 2 secs going through my diffuser


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

jonnyboy said:


> Does it matter if I add all my seachem products to my weekly water change or should I spread them apart? I'm doing a 40% water change every 10 days or so.<br /><br />
> <br /><br />
> So I was thinking of dosing the comprehensive, trace, and excel with my water change. And a couple days later add the NPK dose.<br /><br />
> <br /><br />
> Still have pretty bad algae on substrate and some on glass which is the main reason for my water change every 10 days. I'm hoping I can stretch that to a water change every 2-3 weeks....should I just keep raising the lights after every wc till Im happy with it? I'm at about 45-50 par and have 1 bubble every 2 secs going through my diffuser


<br /><br />
<br /><br />
If you're dosing trace, you don't need the Flourish Comprehensive. That's what Flourish Comp is for - same thing. Matter of fact, if you're running a low-tech tank, people have told me that for low light all you need is Flourish Comprehensive - the plants get the NPK from the new water and fish poop.<br /><br />
<br /><br />
I would raise the lights a significant amount, like 12&quot;, and look at the tank from the front and see if there is enough light. Adjust as necessary, and decrease the photoperiod to 6 for a few weeks and see if the algae goes away. I found that doing weekly 50% changes helped with the algae, and I also removed the algae as much as I could manually. I had hair algae too (I think that's what you've got. Put up a pic and peeople will id it. I'll see if I can put up a link to help with the algae. Also, re-check the recommended dosage of Flourish Comp.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

It does say that you can use comp and trace together on the bottle, but I will try using up the comp by itself first then. And that's what I thought with the NPK nutrients, but I guess since I rushed into getting a new light a couple months ago it puts me in the high tech? With what I've read and what I've been told the only thin that makes sense is lack of macros.
I'm doing a cleaning/water change tonight so I'll raise the lights another inch. Which will put me at 40-45 par according to hoppy's estimates. We will see if adding a low dosage of macro nutrients will help too. Thanks for the help dgango

And here's a pic of the worst of the algae on the bottom. The algae on the glass doesn't bother me too much. I just have to scrape it once a week. It's a whitish color on the glass, but green on the scraper. Got the black algae on the plants under control as well


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

Django said:


> <br /><br />
> <br /><br />
> If you're dosing trace, you don't need the Flourish Comprehensive. That's what Flourish Comp is for - same thing. Matter of fact, if you're running a low-tech tank, people have told me that for low light all you need is Flourish Comprehensive - the plants get the NPK from the new water and fish poop.<br /><br />
> <br /><br />
> I would raise the lights a significant amount, like 12&quot;, and look at the tank from the front and see if there is enough light. Adjust as necessary, and decrease the photoperiod to 6 for a few weeks and see if the algae goes away. I found that doing weekly 50% changes helped with the algae, and I also removed the algae as much as I could manually. I had hair algae too (I think that's what you've got. Put up a pic and peeople will id it. I'll see if I can put up a link to help with the algae. Also, re-check the recommended dosage of Flourish Comp.


Algae Identification/treatment: Algae ID/Treatment


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

The link didn't work. But it's some brush algae on the plants, a little spot algae here and there on the glass....still trying to figure out for sure what the algae on the glass and substrate is. That's the worst of it but can't find good or matching pictures


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

GReen dust algae on the glass....perfect....and now I'm jus seeing and reading contradictions about other algae that I might have. This is very frustrating


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

jonnyboy said:


> The link didn't work. But it's some brush algae on the plants, a little spot algae here and there on the glass....still trying to figure out for sure what the algae on the glass and substrate is. That's the worst of it but can't find good or matching pictures


<br /><br />
<br /><br />
Algae ID/Treatment: http://www.aquaticscape.com/articles/algae.htm


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

The only one I can't ID is what's on the substrate. But I guess it's not that important. I think the lights are where they should be now. And work on balancing the tank too I guess. Gotta get my hands on a Co2 indicator and possibly a uv sterilizer in the near future for the GDA. Thanks for the help chaps


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Plants are still struggling. I was told to dose Epsom salts or magnesium chloride. I don't know how to dose these and have been reading through threads on here for a while now. Links usually don't exhist that are supposed to help, and I'm no chemist so I get confused with some things. I'm not going to dose till I know what I'm doing, but if someone can help me that would be much appreciated!

I have an old thing of Epsom salts. It says it's a 100% natural mineral. The brand is 'white mountain' if that means anything to anyone.


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

Django said:


> Algae Identification/treatment: Algae ID/Treatment


Sorry, it's this new editor. Click on this for the article: Algae ID/Treatment


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

I would first make certain you have good water circulation where the algae is. 

The algae on the rocks looks like the green algae you get on the glass.

Dosing with substance like epsom salts can alter water parameters and thus kill fish. That is what happened with a ram I had.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Thanks for the link Django! It did help after I found where you got the link haha

Algae is still existent but not a nuisance anymore. And that's why I'm trying to find a dosing chart for the Epsom salts....but it's the only thing I haven't tried for my plants! The symptoms point to lack of magnesium chloride....unless you can think of somethin else that I haven't tried?


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

jonnyboy said:


> Does it matter if I add all my seachem products to my weekly water change or should I spread them apart? I'm doing a 40% water change every 10 days or so.
> 
> So I was thinking of dosing the comprehensive, trace, and excel with my water change. And a couple days later add the NPK dose.
> 
> Still have pretty bad algae on substrate and some on glass which is the main reason for my water change every 10 days. I'm hoping I can stretch that to a water change every 2-3 weeks....should I just keep raising the lights after every wc till Im happy with it? I'm at about 45-50 par and have 1 bubble every 2 secs going through my diffuser


Er, I'm a little out of my league with NPK and LED lights. The plan to keep raising the lights sounds reasonable, if you want feedback from someone with only 14 months under his belt and not a fantastic record with my 10g tank.

I would concentrate as you seem to be doing on providing the proper environment so the plants will grow. I don't know about the NPK...you should ask in the parameters/ferts forum. Comprehensive and Trace are largely reduntant. Read the labels and find out which one has more contents. I have it from a reasonably trusted source that I wouldn't put formaldehyde or whatever Excel is, in your tank. It seems like the best advice is "Grow your plants." The algae will respond when the conditions are right and the plants are growing and have the needed light and ferts. Oh and do weekly 50% water changes - they will dilute whatever the algae is liking.


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

Django said:


> Er, I'm a little out of my league with NPK and LED lights. The plan to keep raising the lights sounds reasonable, if you want feedback from someone with only 14 months under his belt and not a fantastic record with my 10g tank.
> 
> I would concentrate as you seem to be doing on providing the proper environment so the plants will grow. I don't know about the NPK...you should ask in the parameters/ferts forum. Comprehensive and Trace are largely reduntant. Read the labels and find out which one has more contents. I have it from a reasonably trusted source that I wouldn't put formaldehyde or whatever Excel is, in your tank. It seems like the best advice is "Grow your plants." The algae will respond when the conditions are right and the plants are growing and have the needed light and ferts. Oh and do weekly 50% water changes - they will dilute whatever the algae is liking.


Oops - quoted. Well, about the epsom salts, I think you don't need cloride floating around the tank - bad for plants and fish. I kinda doubt that there is a magnesium deficiency - it's not NPK so likely there's enough in Comp or Trace. So don't do it.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Django said:


> Er, I'm a little out of my league with NPK and LED lights. The plan to keep raising the lights sounds reasonable, if you want feedback from someone with only 14 months under his belt and not a fantastic record with my 10g tank.
> 
> I would concentrate as you seem to be doing on providing the proper environment so the plants will grow. I don't know about the NPK...you should ask in the parameters/ferts forum. Comprehensive and Trace are largely reduntant. Read the labels and find out which one has more contents. I have it from a reasonably trusted source that I wouldn't put formaldehyde or whatever Excel is, in your tank. It seems like the best advice is "Grow your plants." The algae will respond when the conditions are right and the plants are growing and have the needed light and ferts. Oh and do weekly 50% water changes - they will dilute whatever the algae is liking.


Well I tried the NPK cuz it made sense at the time. I dont do the full dosage of comp or trace. Just want to make sure the plants have their food. I only dose excel when I do a water change to help keep the Co2 balanced. My bubble count is usually only around 1 bubble every 2secs. Which I think is fine considering what my par is at now.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Django said:


> Oops - quoted. Well, about the epsom salts, I think you don't need cloride floating around the tank - bad for plants and fish. I kinda doubt that there is a magnesium deficiency - it's not NPK so likely there's enough in Comp or Trace. So don't do it.


There IS or IS NOT enough comp or trace? And this was a suggestion to me because of how the plants, especially the swords, are slightly transparent and not as green as they should be. But what else would cause this? All I've read is I have a lack of nutrients....but that shouldn't be possible with my tank's parameters.
But you do now have me questioning this even more, especially with the chloride comment....I just want a healthy tank!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jonnyboy said:


> Nvm. I figured it out


Figured what, the diffuser? I have read that some have been having a problem using it with DIY Co2. Yet I am planning to try it. Did you get it working? 

Have you checked your nitrate levels?

What does NPK mean?


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Hilde said:


> Figured what, the diffuser? I have read that some have been having a problem using it with DIY Co2. Yet I am planning to try it. Did you get it working?
> 
> Have you checked your nitrate levels?
> 
> What does NPK mean?


Yeah I got the diffuser to work. I had a leak. Glass bottles, and use rubber stoppers because they make a better seal. You have to drill through them to get the air hose through them obviously. And I have two generators, changing one per week so each goes for two weeks. Working very well actually. 

I'll let you know what my levels are at when I do my next water change.

Nitrogen, potassium, and potassium. So in total I dose those along with comprehensive, iron, and excel on my water changes. All seachem products.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

*nitrogen potassium and phosphorous=NPK


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Two weeks without any maintenance on the tank....which is why the ph is a little high. I usually use some 'easy balance' with water changes. 

Ph- 7
Ammonia- .25
Nitrite- 0 to .25
Nitrate- 0 to 5


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

I just want to say one thing so we're all on the same page. Many knowledgeable people have assured me that a low-to-medium light low tech tank runs fine on fish food -> fish poop for P and K, Nitrogen from the dissolved compounds in the water, plus trace elements (Comprehensive) as directed. With that in place, any problems must be something else, or the light is wrong, etc.

Unfortunately, although Aquariology sits on some science, we don't have the equipment or the training to use it. So, it becomes an art. I am coming to the conclusion that for myself, a familiarity with what to do with a planted aquarium comes through personal experience, and there's no hurrying it along any faster. It *is* useful to find out what other people are saying about and doing with their balanced Planted Aquariums so it may be used when you get there.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Thanks Django! I understand what you're saying, it's just so frustrating to think I might have the solution...and then I'm back to the drawing board.

I'm going to be building a good for the tank hopefully in the near future. When I do I'm getting some different lights. Probably some T5's and get away from the LED's....much as I love they make the tank look


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

jonnyboy said:


> Thanks Django! I understand what you're saying, it's just so frustrating to think I might have the solution...and then I'm back to the drawing board.
> 
> I'm going to be building a good for the tank hopefully in the near future. When I do I'm getting some different lights. Probably some T5's and get away from the LED's....much as I love they make the tank look


jonnyboy, good plans, but you still have to learn by experience. You know "overthinking?" Well, I think you're overdoing. You have to be patient and wait for the results to show in the plants, and try one thing at a time so you can find out what works and what doesn't. I'm not being critical and I'm trying to be constructive, to sort of set you in the right direction. I know it's frustrating when the plants aren't doing well, and you want to throw everything you've got at them. But especially in this particular endeavor, slow and steady, you know? I really hope you take this in a positive way.

Steven


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

PS Put up some pics - they really help.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Django said:


> PS Put up some pics - they really help.


This was after scraping glass and water change last night. The three longer sprouts on the rotala are the only thing that's grown in the last three weeks. Aside from the broad leaf on the left side of the tank. Rangeri and red melon swords are doing horrible....crypts haven't changed much basically ever. Ignore the baby tears....they're a failed attempt. I will put up more detailed pics tonight when I have time if anyone wants.


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

Great picture! Just a couple of comments - the filter looks like it may be too small to circulate water around the tank, but that's not the problem. It might shed some light on the subject <ahem> if you looked up the light requirements of Rotala. It's doing well, so you will be able to see what intensity light you have. That's about it - none of the plants, that I can tell, have deficiencies.


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## BigTom (Sep 16, 2011)

Sorry, I'm a bit late to this thread and haven't read through the whole of it, but there doesn't seem to be much wrong with those plants. Low tech growth is always slow and sometimes very slow; your number one asset here is patience. Many of the plants you've chosen (the crypts and swords) have pretty low potential growth rates anyway, regardless of the conditions you provide.

If you want more plants, buy more plants. Then as long as they show stable, sustainable growth at any speed you shouldn't have any problems. A larger plant biomass will probably also help slow down your algae. Otos or shrimp would also be a good addition if you don't have any already.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jonnyboy said:


> Rangeri and red melon swords are doing horrible....crypts haven't changed much basically ever. Ignore the baby tears....they're a failed attempt.


I am thinking that they would improve with KNO3.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Django said:


> Great picture! Just a couple of comments - the filter looks like it may be too small to circulate water around the tank, but that's not the problem. It might shed some light on the subject <ahem> if you looked up the light requirements of Rotala. It's doing well, so you will be able to see what intensity light you have. That's about it - none of the plants, that I can tell, have deficiencies.


Thank you! I have two filters to help circulate the water....also want to get a UV sterilizer to try to kill even more algae. Is it normal to get a bacterial bloom on a fairly mature tank? I haven't seen one in it for like 5 months, but have one now. And for the lights Hoppy has a par graph he made and I've been going by that


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

BigTom said:


> Sorry, I'm a bit late to this thread and haven't read through the whole of it, but there doesn't seem to be much wrong with those plants. Low tech growth is always slow and sometimes very slow; your number one asset here is patience. Many of the plants you've chosen (the crypts and swords) have pretty low potential growth rates anyway, regardless of the conditions you provide.
> 
> If you want more plants, buy more plants. Then as long as they show stable, sustainable growth at any speed you shouldn't have any problems. A larger plant biomass will probably also help slow down your algae. Otos or shrimp would also be a good addition if you don't have any already.


Well the plants aren't too bad right now, but I also pulled off the bad leaves during cleanup....but compared to how they looked when I bought them....the swords look horrible! They're not getting better or worse for the last month or so. 
Don't bother reading through the whole thing haha! Lots of basics covered pretty much
And I do want to get some more foreground plants in a couple weeks.
I have 4 Amano's and 2 Otto cats.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Hilde said:


> I am thinking that they would improve with KNO3.


I think you may have suggested that before...can't remember. But I'm going to order that tonight. Thank you


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

jonnyboy said:


> There IS or IS NOT enough comp or trace? And this was a suggestion to me because of how the plants, especially the swords, are slightly transparent and not as green as they should be. But what else would cause this? All I've read is I have a lack of nutrients....but that shouldn't be possible with my tank's parameters.
> But you do now have me questioning this even more, especially with the chloride comment....I just want a healthy tank!


Oh, I just went back and my whole post is gone. Well, there's enough trace elements in comp or trace. Also I wouldn't put in NPK components. I have gone through this whole thing!

The best suggestion for your problems I've heard is to put in more plants, preferably fast-growing stem plants,or sometimes they call them "bunch plants" I think, and watch the lighting - don't put it up too high. I hope your water circulation is enough, like 100 gallons per hour for a 10 gallon tank (10 * tank volume), I have heard. Meanwhile, Google and read!


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Django said:


> Oh, I just went back and my whole post is gone. Well, there's enough trace elements in comp or trace. Also I wouldn't put in NPK components. I have gone through this whole thing!
> 
> The best suggestion for your problems I've heard is to put in more plants, preferably fast-growing stem plants,or sometimes they call them "bunch plants" I think, and watch the lighting - don't put it up too high. I hope your water circulation is enough, like 100 gallons per hour for a 10 gallon tank (10 * tank volume), I have heard. Meanwhile, Google and read!


Roger that! I have the potassium nitrate shipped and on it's way, along with a UV sterilizer which I will use to create even more flow till the algae is better. Which I think I'm just fightin it still from having my lights way too bright. Maybe this weekend I'll get more plants....which I've been wanting to do for a while. Oh and with the two filters I think I'm at 200-250 gph. Only problem is they're hob's so I can't control where the current is going


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

jonnyboy said:


> Roger that! I have the potassium nitrate shipped and on it's way, along with a UV sterilizer which I will use to create even more flow till the algae is better. Which I think I'm just fightin it still from having my lights way too bright. Maybe this weekend I'll get more plants....which I've been wanting to do for a while. Oh and with the two filters I think I'm at 200-250 gph. Only problem is they're hob's so I can't control where the current is going


I'd put the HOBs together at the middle of the back of the tank. That's where I put my HOB. Or separate them so they're evenly spaced. Potassium is one of the three macronutrients and has to be balanced with Nitrogen and Phosphorus. Nitrogen is in Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrates so you have to keep an eye on the nitrates if you add them. P and K are included in fish food, which is why we don't add them.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Django said:


> I'd put the HOBs together at the middle of the back of the tank. That's where I put my HOB. Or separate them so they're evenly spaced. Potassium is one of the three macronutrients and has to be balanced with Nitrogen and Phosphorus. Nitrogen is in Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrates so you have to keep an eye on the nitrates if you add them. P and K are included in fish food, which is why we don't add them.


Thanks. When I try adding KNO3 I will def be testing regularly! I'll probably move the HOB's around when I put the sterilizer in. Try to get the best current possible.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

*The detailed photos I promised*

Base of the rangeri....I did this a long time ago when I had no idea what I was doing....leave it or try pulling them off? Or even cutting them closer to the base?....


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Transparency. Good or bad? This is the sword again.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Red melon sword. Most of the leaves look 'crimped' overall it looks healthy. Have lost 8 leaves within the last 3-4 weeks and no new growth.


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

Root Tabs Root Tabs Root Tabs! Seachem Root Tabs.


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## jesseliu13 (Jun 3, 2013)

root tabs. definitely. and you may not have the right balance for your plants if your still having problem with root tabs. I havent read everything in this thread but looking at your equipment from your first one you seem to have the same problem I have... You dont exactly have enough light.. or the light may not be the right spectrum for your plants... I suggest a desk lamp with a cfl of 6500K. representing daylight 23 watts. I am doing this now. I can see my plants doing a bit better. though i have a nutrient difficiency i must solve. I just have to find out which one it is...


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

jonnyboy said:


> I've had my tank for a few months now and am getting frustrated with my plants. They are not dying, but don't look healthy are are not growing.
> 
> TANK: 20gal 24Lx13wx17h
> LIGHT:18" 15watt full spectrum
> ...


You need another fixture and two bulbs - T8. The thing that stumps me is why, if you don't have a lot of light now, are you having so many problems with algae? The general answer would be because the plants aren't growing, which means there is a limiting factor. Having had good experience with lowering the light and photoperiod, I would suggest using non-metal window screening or raising the fixture to lower the light. It also helped me with BGA to vacuum the gravel, which I guess wouldn't apply to you with e-whatever fluorite. Could try cleaning your filter if it needs it.

Make absolutely sure you're adding the right amount of Comprehensive, and put Root Tabs way underneath the swords and other root-feeders. What is your Nitrate level?? Be prepared to wait at least 1 week for fast-growing plants to start to grow, more for slower ones.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Django said:


> Root Tabs Root Tabs Root Tabs! Seachem Root Tabs.


Yeah I was using API root tabs....and I feel like that were junk.


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## johnson18 (Apr 29, 2011)

jonnyboy said:


> Red melon sword. Most of the leaves look 'crimped' overall it looks healthy. Have lost 8 leaves within the last 3-4 weeks and no new growth.


Just read through this whole thread! It looks like your swords originally had emersed growth, which might explain some of the leaf loss. This sword looks really nice. If you've trimmed most of the old leaves off you should probably start getting some new growth! Just stay on top of the root tabs. You've got a good start on this tank!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jonnyboy said:


> Base of the rangeri....I did this a long time ago when I had no idea what I was doing....leave it or try pulling them off? ..


Looks like BBA. Cut the leaves off. The other plants look okay. Just cut the leaves that you don't like off and they should grow back bushier.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Django said:


> You need another fixture and two bulbs - T8. The thing that stumps me is why, if you don't have a lot of light now, are you having so many problems with algae? The general answer would be because the plants aren't growing, which means there is a limiting factor. Having had good experience with lowering the light and photoperiod, I would suggest using non-metal window screening or raising the fixture to lower the light. It also helped me with BGA to vacuum the gravel, which I guess wouldn't apply to you with e-whatever fluorite. Could try cleaning your filter if it needs it.
> 
> Make absolutely sure you're adding the right amount of Comprehensive, and put Root Tabs way underneath the swords and other root-feeders. What is your Nitrate level?? Be prepared to wait at least 1 week for fast-growing plants to start to grow, more for slower ones.


I didn't have algae problems till I got the fugeray ray2 led's. I had them wayyy too close. Don't have the 18 watt anymore. I'll do a thorough vacuuming when I get more root tabs which should be delivered soon. Nitrates are 0-.25ppm.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

johnson18 said:


> Just read through this whole thread! It looks like your swords originally had emersed growth, which might explain some of the leaf loss. This sword looks really nice. If you've trimmed most of the old leaves off you should probably start getting some new growth! Just stay on top of the root tabs. You've got a good start on this tank!


Thanks! I've only had one leaf starting for the only new growth in the last month or more. I'm due for root tabs...we shall see I guess


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

jesseliu13 said:


> root tabs. definitely. and you may not have the right balance for your plants if your still having problem with root tabs. I havent read everything in this thread but looking at your equipment from your first one you seem to have the same problem I have... You dont exactly have enough light.. or the light may not be the right spectrum for your plants... I suggest a desk lamp with a cfl of 6500K. representing daylight 23 watts. I am doing this now. I can see my plants doing a bit better. though i have a nutrient difficiency i must solve. I just have to find out which one it is...


Thank you! I want to get some new lights but won't be able to for a while. Maybe I'll build my own instead of buying a strip. Def enough light, but it's 10,000K so you're probably right with that? I need to read some more about lighting


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Hilde said:


> Looks like BBA. Cut the leaves off. The other plants look okay. Just cut the leaves that you don't like off and they should grow back bushier.


Okay. Cut the leaves at the base of the leaf? Or base of the stem? Cutting them at the stem has not worked for me. Or I've read breaking the leaf off by hand is supposed to work too?


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Thank you all you guys for your help!!! I truly appreciate it!


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

jonnyboy said:


> Okay. Cut the leaves at the base of the leaf? Or base of the stem? Cutting them at the stem has not worked for me. Or I've read breaking the leaf off by hand is supposed to work too?


This is what I think you have:










This is where I got the pic from - you should skim around the whole blog: aquariumalgae.blogspot.com

I think you have fuzzy algae on your Sword in the picture. I think it's there because the Sword isn't growing at full capacity. From what I've read, there must be a balance between all elements of your aquatic environment - enough light, nutrients for that level of light, and on... If you can clear up the problem creating the algae, the plant will grow better and out-perform the algae, which will go away. Check out the aquariumalgae.blogspot.com.

Steve


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jonnyboy said:


> Okay. Cut the leaves at the base of the leaf? Or base of the stem?


I cut at the base of the stem or close for I don't want to see where I have cut it.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Django said:


> This is what I think you have:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wish I had found this before I started the tank! There's some very helpful info in that! I learned a few things. So thanks again! I think I'm getting close to a balanced tank....just not quite there yet


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## PeterN1986 (Jun 15, 2011)

jonnyboy said:


> I didn't have algae problems till I got the fugeray ray2 led's. I had them wayyy too close. Don't have the 18 watt anymore. I'll do a thorough vacuuming when I get more root tabs which should be delivered soon. Nitrates are 0-.25ppm.


Cut out 1 or 2 rectangles of window screen to put in front of the Ray2. I had to do this when I got it for my 20H. One layer will reduce the light intensity by like 50% or something. It's an easy cheap solution that just requires the window screen, scissors, and double-sided tape. 

I eventually hung it like 10" above my tank and don't have any algae issues. You should get some amano shrimp or RCS's to munch on the algae.

Your swords look fine, you don't need to fret about them. I have a red melon sword also and they are a dark shade of maroon, but the leaves have no stem. I like how your leaves have some stem on them.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

PeterN1986 said:


> Cut out 1 or 2 rectangles of window screen to put in front of the Ray2. I had to do this when I got it for my 20H. One layer will reduce the light intensity by like 50% or something. It's an easy cheap solution that just requires the window screen, scissors, and double-sided tape.
> 
> I eventually hung it like 10" above my tank and don't have any algae issues. You should get some amano shrimp or RCS's to munch on the algae.
> 
> Your swords look fine, you don't need to fret about them. I have a red melon sword also and they are a dark shade of maroon, but the leaves have no stem. I like how your leaves have some stem on them.


I was actually wondering how much the screening would reduce it. I think I'll do two screens and put the good that came with the tank back on. Won't have to too the water off as often that way. 
I have 4 amano shrimp, but they are always more interested in the fish food. I feed every other day, and sometimes the shrimp fight over the food lol! But there's plenty of algae for them to munch on. Might just get a baby pleco and then just bring him back to my LFS when he gets too big.
Thanks for the reassurance. I'll be putting seachem root tabs under each plant this weekend. Seachem's last wayyy longer than API's!!!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jonnyboy said:


> Might just get a baby pleco and then just bring him back to my LFS when he gets too big.


Some plecos stay small. The bristlenose pleco does not get real big


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Hilde said:


> Some plecos stay small. The bristlenose pleco does not get real big


I had one for a while. Brought him back cuz he was damaging new plants that hadn't rooted yet. Oto cats that I have are too picky of eaters though imo. I need something that's gonna eat about anything. A friend actually almost got me a royal pleco....don't know why he didn't lol


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

So what's a good range for me to aim for with my nitrates? I wanna start dosing the KNO3, but would like some reassurance. My nitrates are 0-5ppm right now, ammonia and nitrites are almost non exhistant. I was thinkin somewhere around 10-15 and see what happens? Test every other day and see how the plants and fish are reacting


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

jonnyboy said:


> So what's a good range for me to aim for with my nitrates? I wanna start dosing the KNO3, but would like some reassurance. My nitrates are 0-5ppm right now, ammonia and nitrites are almost non exhistant. I was thinkin somewhere around 10-15 and see what happens? Test every other day and see how the plants and fish are reacting


So far the consensus of what I've read is less than 20 parts per million, can go up to 30 ppm sometimes. I forgot what size your tank is. If it's small, you don't need to dose Nitrates or Potassium and shouldn't. I don't with my 10g. Someone who wanted to embark on that journey with a small tank would have to use Nitrogen, Phosphorous, Potassium and trace elements, and use them all, in the correct proportions, very small doses. I wouldn't advise it. It's for high light and pressurized CO2.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Django said:


> So far the consensus of what I've read is less than 20 parts per million, can go up to 30 ppm sometimes. I forgot what size your tank is. If it's small, you don't need to dose Nitrates or Potassium and shouldn't. I don't with my 10g. Someone who wanted to embark on that journey with a small tank would have to use Nitrogen, Phosphorous, Potassium and trace elements, and use them all, in the correct proportions, very small doses. I wouldn't advise it. It's for high light and pressurized CO2.


It's a 20gal. I dosed a 1/4 tsp last night and my nitrates are still the same. I'll wait tonight and dose a 1/2 tsp tomorrow, which is what the graph gave me, but I just wanted to be safe. And I already dose Nitrogen, Phosphorous, Potassium and trace elements. I also dose an API product which has iron and potassium sulfate. It was the only iron product I could get at my LFS....very slim pickings. As far as Co2 goes, my DIY makes 1/2 bubble per second at a surprisingly steady pace.
I appreciate you helping me out though! We will see how this goes I guess...

Oh and why low doses? I do weekly water changes, and have read it's not bad to have too many nutrients in the water....but there are so many conflicting arguments out there! Just curious what your reasoning is


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jonnyboy said:


> Oh and why low doses? I do weekly water changes, and have read it's not bad to have too many nutrients in the water.


I have read many post that when people do EI dosing they are dosing excess nutrients. Thus they do weekly water changes.

I dose minimum for I only do water changes monthly. For doing a version of El Natural set up. For I want a low maintenance tank.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Hilde said:


> I have read many post that when people do EI dosing they are dosing excess nutrients. Thus they do weekly water changes.
> 
> I dose minimum for I only do water changes monthly. For doing a version of El Natural set up. For I want a low maintenance tank.


Gotcha. I'm still doing weekly water changes in an attempt to get rid of the algae completely....if that's possible, and with my new UV sterilizer hopefully tht will help too! But in the meantime I will try to figure out a balance for dosing. So kinda works out for me


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

jonnyboy said:


> It's a 20gal. I dosed a 1/4 tsp last night and my nitrates are still the same. I'll wait tonight and dose a 1/2 tsp tomorrow, which is what the graph gave me, but I just wanted to be safe. And I already dose Nitrogen, Phosphorous, Potassium and trace elements. I also dose an API product which has iron and potassium sulfate. It was the only iron product I could get at my LFS....very slim pickings. As far as Co2 goes, my DIY makes 1/2 bubble per second at a surprisingly steady pace.
> I appreciate you helping me out though! We will see how this goes I guess...
> 
> Oh and why low doses? I do weekly water changes, and have read it's not bad to have too many nutrients in the water....but there are so many conflicting arguments out there! Just curious what your reasoning is


Using only one macronutrient or too high a level of macronutrients/micronutrients is an invitation to all kinds of algae to start growing, given sufficient light if I'm not mistaken. If you don't have light and CO2 at the level that the amount of ferts is enough for, the extra won't be doing you any good. Most low light low tech tanks don't use additional ferts. CO2 is a little better, glad you have a good steady level. Replace it before it runs out - unstability in CO2 is also a big invitation to algae.

Low doses, because you're not high light and compressed CO2, are all that is needed for maximum plant growth even if your 20 is packed full of well-growing plants. And I'm glad to share whatever I have picked up in the last 14 months.


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## Quick5ilver (Jun 24, 2013)

I'd like to advise u to use finer gravel as because u are having plants that grow complex root systems. The coarse gravel will damage their roots.


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## shambhalove. (Jan 22, 2013)

jonnyboy said:


> It's a 20gal. I dosed a 1/4 tsp last night and my nitrates are still the same. I'll wait tonight and dose a 1/2 tsp tomorrow


Do not rely on your test kit to give you accurate results. Adding 1/4 tsp of KNO3 to 20 gallons of water will put the nitrates right around 10 ppm. Which is right where you want to be.

And yes, pick up some KH2PO4 and a trace mix like Plantex CSM+B.

See here http://rota.la


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Django said:


> Using only one macronutrient or too high a level of macronutrients/micronutrients is an invitation to all kinds of algae to start growing, given sufficient light if I'm not mistaken. If you don't have light and CO2 at the level that the amount of ferts is enough for, the extra won't be doing you any good. Most low light low tech tanks don't use additional ferts. CO2 is a little better, glad you have a good steady level. Replace it before it runs out - unstability in CO2 is also a big invitation to algae.
> 
> Low doses, because you're not high light and compressed CO2, are all that is needed for maximum plant growth even if your 20 is packed full of well-growing plants. And I'm glad to share whatever I have picked up in the last 14 months.


Again, thank you very much! I know the risks now, and have been paying extra attention to fish health, tank parameters, and algae growth. So far no change! The plants on the other hand are actually growing and looking healthier. This could be coincidence of course....
I change one bottle every week. So one bottle will run for two weeks total and then be replenished. Works for me. 
And I'm gonna try lowering the dosage a little. See what happens. 'You are a scholar and a gentleman'


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Quick5ilver said:


> I'd like to advise u to use finer gravel as because u are having plants that grow complex root systems. The coarse gravel will damage their roots.


I have been wanting to do that actually. I wasn't planning on a planted tank when I initially set it up, and jumped into the plant aspect with a little too much excitement lol. Gonna get my 5.5 set up so the fish I hav will have a place to live while I rescape this one.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

shambhalove. said:


> Do not rely on your test kit to give you accurate results. Adding 1/4 tsp of KNO3 to 20 gallons of water will put the nitrates right around 10 ppm. Which is right where you want to be.
> 
> And yes, pick up some KH2PO4 and a trace mix like Plantex CSM+B.
> 
> See here http://rota.la


So you're sayin I should stick with 1/4 tsp instead of upping to a 1/2 tsp? It would coincide with what Django said about keeping low dosages I suppose. And why KH2PO4? How does it benefit the plants?

Does anyone have a link that would explain how plants utilize each fert? Or rather, the effect of the ferts on the plants directly?


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## shambhalove. (Jan 22, 2013)

jonnyboy said:


> So you're sayin I should stick with 1/4 tsp instead of upping to a 1/2 tsp? It would coincide with what Django said about keeping low dosages I suppose. And why KH2PO4? How does it benefit the plants?
> 
> Does anyone have a link that would explain how plants utilize each fert? Or rather, the effect of the ferts on the plants directly?


Yes, do not trust your test kit unless youve calibrated it.

KH2PO4 is mono potassium phosphate, it gives the plants P and more K. I didnt realize you were already dosing both.

Theres no quick answer for that haha. Google macro and micro nutrients for plants and start there.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

shambhalove. said:


> Yes, do not trust your test kit unless youve calibrated it.
> 
> KH2PO4 is mono potassium phosphate, it gives the plants P and more K. I didnt realize you were already dosing both.
> 
> Theres no quick answer for that haha. Google macro and micro nutrients for plants and start there.


I hadn't even though of doing that. I'll look that up along with macro and micro nutrients. Thanks


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

All you guys helped me out alot on this thread. I truly appreciate it. Literally had no idea what I was getting into...and now I'm hooked. In the process of doing a rebuild and figured I would share the link to the journal. Hopefully I do things better this time haha

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=478593


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