# Aquasoil + powersand



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Just get 6L of AS and no PS.


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

Either way I would get the 6L


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## sweetpuff (Feb 9, 2007)

I have the almost the same problem as kmg9000.

Will putting an inch of black sand on top of aquasoil be alright for a shrimp only tank? Will it still be able to lower down the pH? Buying another bag of aquasoil is pretty much out of the question for now.


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## Storm_Rider (Sep 30, 2006)

is it neccessary to cap the aquasoil with something at all or can it be used alone


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## aquanut415 (Jan 21, 2006)

give powersand a try, you might like it.


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

It does not need to be capped and I think it's better not to cause it will all mix eventually making it look like crap.

I have powersand/aquasoil layered and so far there are zero complaints


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## typically (Dec 29, 2006)

i have a 10 gallon and used powersand and aquasoil and i wish i didn't use the powersand. i was pulling plants and if the plant has a good root system it pulls a whole crap load of the powersand to the top. it took me 5 mins to pull plants and an hour to pick all the powersand that it brought to the top out. if you plan on changing things in your tank keep this in mind.


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## aquanut415 (Jan 21, 2006)

correct placement of powersand in the tank prior to the addition of aquasoil is imperative for optimal performance, and ease of maintenance.


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## NewMariner (Sep 30, 2002)

aquanut415 said:


> correct placement of powersand in the tank prior to the addition of aquasoil is imperative for optimal performance, and ease of maintenance.


Could you expand on this comment a little? Im about to setup a tank with ps and as. What is the correct placement of ps? I was going to spread it out about an inch or 2 from the sides of the glass, and then layer about 2-3 inches of as on top. What am I missing?


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## aquanut415 (Jan 21, 2006)

well.. there are a few different ways to make it work. take your pick..

one, is to simply add powersand only to the back 1/3 of the tank area, and keep it mounded so that it rests against the back piece of glass. kinda like making a bead of silicone against the bottom piece of tank glass, and the back piece of glass. works well, but you will get powersand pulling up during replanting...

alternatively, you can evenly distribute the ps all over the bottom of the tank, and secure it with some stainless steel screen. then add aquasoil over that...

another would be to put the powersand in a sturdy thick filter sock, and place that under the aquasoil in an area you do not plan to plant so deeply.

or, put the powersand in the canister of a filter... 

the list goes on... be creative, and yet, but thoughtful, and you might find yourself using powersand on all your tanks with aquasoil....possibly even fluorite?


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## typically (Dec 29, 2006)

man i wish i would have know about the ss screen over top of it a few months ago =] oh well live and learn thanks for the tips aqua


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## aquanut415 (Jan 21, 2006)

no problem.

i strongly urge anyone using aquasoil for the first time to endulge, and try some powersand as well.

initially i didn't see a use for it. but, after having setup a few tanks with and without, and watching them for a while now, i will not be setting up any tanks without it any time in the near future.

(now, i'll just sit back and watch all the nay sayers do just that!) and still not care at all.


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## CmLaracy (Jan 7, 2007)

I'm making a tank with PS and ASA and I'm using plants like HC and Hairgrass, 
what would be the best method of use with the Power Sand. I would hate if the 
Power Sand mixed with the ASA, so keep that in mind.


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

You could use Profile or Turface instead, similar porosity but better CEC than PowerSand. Then add whatever additives you want (plant tabs, peat, etc.)


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## aquanut415 (Jan 21, 2006)

Raul-7 said:


> You could use Profile or Turface instead, similar porosity but better CEC than PowerSand. Then add whatever additives you want (plant tabs, peat, etc.)


 instead of buying one thing designed for the plantedtank, you are gonna go buy another not designed for the planedtank? where is the logic in that???


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## aquanut415 (Jan 21, 2006)

and where are you getting your information from? where is the CEC for powersand stated?


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

aquanut415 said:


> instead of buying one thing designed for the plantedtank, you are gonna go buy another not designed for the planedtank? where is the logic in that???


Hobbyists have been doing it for years. Shultz Aquatic Soil is another alternative, however Profile is exactly the same yet cheaper. Not to mention, nothing is really magical about PS, it's just pumice, carbon, peat and maybe some trace elements. Not to difficult to replicate without the high price tag, pumice can be bought for cheap at a bonsai or hydroponic store. Add some laterite, maybe some Greensand (it's loaded with traces and K) and some regular filter carbon - there's your PS at 1/5th the cost.


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

aquanut415 said:


> and where are you getting your information from? where is the CEC for powersand stated?


It's nothing but peat and pumice (inert glass). The only CEC comes from the peat and the carbon they add. The pumic is simply for the porosity which provides a medium for the beneficial bacteria to grow and it helps aerate the roots.


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## aquanut415 (Jan 21, 2006)

Raul-7 said:


> Not to difficult to replicate without the high price tag, pumice can be bought for cheap at a bonsai or hydroponic store. Add some laterite, maybe some Greensand (it's loaded with traces and K) and some regular filter carbon - there's your PS at 1/5th the cost.


there you go.. instead of using powersand you are saying to use greensand and laterite. where does one go about buying greensand? i guess i have to go to the home supply place... there is some more time and money spent. what about the laterite??? i guess then i can drive to the aquarium store and buy that too. before you also mentioned roottabs..... and on and on and... on... did you forget to mention diamond black? and mulm from an established tank?? .......

im suggesting that the expense of aqusoil is worth it when you consider the amount of simplification it offers. 

and if PS is so useless, why go to through all that trouble to duplicate the effects it creates?


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## aquanut415 (Jan 21, 2006)

Raul-7 said:


> It's nothing but peat and pumice (inert glass). The only CEC comes from the peat and the carbon they add. The pumic is simply for the porosity which provides a medium for the beneficial bacteria to grow and it helps aerate the roots.





aquanut415 said:


> and where are you getting your information from? where is the CEC for powersand stated?



im still waiting for your answer.


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

aquanut415 said:


> there you go.. instead of using powersand you are saying to use greensand and laterite. where does one go about buying greensand? i guess i have to go to the home supply place... there is some more time and money spent. what about the laterite??? i guess then i can drive to the aquarium store and buy that too. before you also mentioned roottabs..... and on and on and... on... did you forget to mention diamond black? and mulm from an established tank?? .......
> 
> im suggesting that the expense of aqusoil is worth it when you consider the amount of simplification it offers.


But you have to consider a bag of Greensand, laterite and peat will be enough to setup 3-5 tanks. Root tabs are also cheap and plentiful. Mulm is free and is proven to have live bacteria unlike the questionable claims you get with usual 'bacteria starters'. Diamond black is not needed, it is simply a hardened form of peat.



> and if PS is so useless, why go to through all that trouble to duplicate the effects it creates?


I never claimed it was useless, I claimed it could be done much cheaper by simply using your own materials.


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

aquanut415 said:


> im still waiting for your answer.


What answer? It's common sense that pumice is an inert form of glass. It's like saying sand has a low CEC. No one would doubt that.


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## aquanut415 (Jan 21, 2006)

its like 25 bucks a bag... thats not enough cost to justify me wasting all that time.

and you are making a lot of assumptions about what ada is putting in thier bags.

point is you don't know the whole story, its proprietary.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

aquanut415 said:


> correct placement of powersand in the tank prior to the addition of aquasoil is imperative for optimal performance, and ease of maintenance.


But does the PS really do anything or is it just that you _want_ it to do something? I tested what is in it and we can easily tell.

What is Ps optimal performance? What does that look like in terms of plant growth, ease of care, replanting etc?

Basically what I've been nagging all those that support the use of PS, what do I really get out of using it vs not using it?

No one has shown me, nor anyone a reason as of yet.
Am I the only one that's used it and tested both methods?
No, those that have used just the ASA As have also reported similar findings.

Are you suggesting otherwise and if so, what effects, functions, anything discernable can you verify are due to the effects of PS?

If you do 2 treatments, one with and one without and cannot see a significant difference, is there really a reason to use the product vs ADA As alone?

Why bother?
I know you have heard this all from me before and it's not just to you, it's to anyone that can show me that there is a difference.
Explain and show the test up and I'll try it myself.
I have extra PS sitting here roud: 

KISS.

Same type of thing with heating cables.
I asked if they do much.
The theory did not make sense, neither does this anymore than adding a jobes stick in there.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

aquanut415 said:


> and where are you getting your information from? where is the CEC for powersand stated?


The CEC for powersand is that of pumic.

See Jamie Johnson's old analysis of various components of sediment types used in aquariums.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

aquanut415 said:


> im suggesting that the expense of aqusoil is worth it when you consider the amount of simplification it offers.
> 
> and if PS is so useless, why go to through all that trouble to duplicate the effects it creates?


I don't, but others have.
I agree with KISS.

Which is why I do not suggest DIY PS.
It's _better just to buy ADA PS_ unless you are doing very large tanks, and I sudder to think about that with PS.

As far as knowing what is in ADA PS, I've done 3 test and will publish them this summer. Then you will know as far as what is all in the ADA AS, ADA PS, the liquid ferts line.

I've already done 2 seperate test on PS and know there is nothing suprising in it. Severla threads have shown that and from more folks than just myself, some folks actually try the methods I suggest for the experimental design and set up that are easy to do and address the issue within reason for an average hobbyist. A quick method course method is all that's been done, I'll do a more thorough extraction later on.

I sent Ian and sample I did on 5 soil types already. 
I'll be doing a similar test coming up using several soils, that we use for aquariums. 

As far as that mumbo about improving flow characteristics, anyone that works with wetland soils and plants knows that is baloney. It's the same baloney used to support the heating cable issue. Which is and has always been baloney. You are welcomed to buy and support ADA, I'm not suggesting otherwise.

However, there is no support that ADA substrates do ineed work any better without PS other than claims from ADA. 

If you compare 2 treatments, one with more nutrients than one without, of course anyone can predict the outcome, the one with more nutrients will grow faster/longer/better etc.

Adding PS vs say adding Osomcoat/ thin layer of soil/ jobes etc addresses that. Knowing the concentration and the longer life and less mess involved using osmocoat seems wiser to add that vs the PS.

If you assume that it's nutrient sources alone.

If you assume it's peat, well, that's cheap 2$.

If you assume that it's better flow etc, pumice is also very cheap.

All these factors can and have been tested for many years, there are a lot of hobbyists who discussed this stuff ad nauseum in the past.

What has not been discussed is these in the context of the PS or the ADA AS.

You cannot claim that it is both the AS+PS that helps and causes the positive effect unless you have done them individually as well.

Which brings up a nice point and one that is easily testable:

Plain sand + ADA PS.

Regards, 
Tom Barr






Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## aquanut415 (Jan 21, 2006)

as fas as PS... ive used it.. i like it, and will continue to use it. its one product in one bag... not five products i need to go out and shop for.

ive also setup tanks according to your other protocols (peat, mulm, diamond black, laterite, ........whatever) and i truly can't say those tanks were any better or worse than the tanks ive setup using AS and PS. 

so id say you are right on one respect... we aren't really sure its doing anything, but even when ive setup tanks according to your other protocols, ive never gotten better results than i have using AS and PS. 

that means no EI, and powersand.

maybe you are so much better at keeping planted tanks you don't have the same issues as I?.... im ready and willing to admit that. 

but don't tell me based on your experiences PS doesn't do anything, cause in my experiece it does no more or less than setting up the substrate the way you have been recommending to others. 

so... i continue to use it, cause of the simplification it offers. 

go WARRIORS!!!!!


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## ianiwane (Sep 7, 2004)

Raul-7 said:


> Diamond black is not needed, it is simply a hardened form of peat.


Daimond black is not a hardened form of peat. It is Leonardite. Which is a clay-type material that contains humic acid. 

My question here is have you tried any of this or is this all just on your part speculation? Experience is worth a lot more than something that you read. Have you tried using Greensand, laterite and peat with aquasoil? Have you even tried aquasoil? Please answer this question, I really would like to know.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

aquanut415 said:


> as fas as PS... ive used it.. i like it, and will continue to use it. its one product in one bag... not five products i need to go out and shop for.


I agree there is a lot to be said for that idea.



> ive also setup tanks according to your other protocols (peat, mulm, diamond black, laterite, ........whatever) and i truly can't say those tanks were any better or worse than the tanks ive setup using AS and PS.
> 
> 
> > So you have set up tanks using ADA AS only?
> ...


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

ianiwane said:


> Daimond black is not a hardened form of peat. It is Leonardite. Which is a clay-type material that contains humic acid.


They both serve the same purpose, a supply of humic acid to provide the bacteria with the organics it needs to grow. 



> My question here is have you tried any of this or is this all just on your part speculation? Experience is worth a lot more than something that you read. Have you tried using Greensand, laterite and peat with aquasoil? Have you even tried aquasoil? Please answer this question, I really would like to know.


No, but Art (former ADA supplier long before anyone knew Amano) has and he recommends it.

I have no reason why it should not work, people have been using nutrient rich additives and soils for years. This nothing new. Greensand is 0-0-5 and is loaded with trace elements, nothing dangerous. ADA does sell their own laterite that they recommend using for long-term, laterite can be found cheaper locally. Peat, that is found in the PS is the same peat found anywhere (ignoring the geological factor).


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## aquanut415 (Jan 21, 2006)

tom, we are both well versed in the scientific method... im not in need of a lesson on how to setup an experiement, or a reminder to be subjective and thorough when considering evidence. ive only been using ada products for a year and a half, but i have done considerable tinkering with setup practices. yes ive used AS alone. also setup a tank with AS and turface underneath....ive setup tanks with as and ps.... and a few other setups as well. 

our opinions are based on our observations, which are not backed by real numerical data.

my observations lead me to believe the money spent on PS is worth it, yours obviously differ.

why can't i continue to believe what im observing is real? 

im not telling people that using peat and mulm and all that stuff is useless.... im saying there is one bag with all that stuff already in it and it only costs ~$25.. like it or leave it.


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## yoko (Mar 16, 2007)

What exactly is in ADA Aquasoil?

I think I might just make my own soil mix and experiment :icon_neut


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## MrJG (Feb 21, 2007)

Aquasoil is people!!!

Sorry I couldn't resist. While I have nothing constructive to add to the discussion with such little experience using AS, I will say thank you to those who discuss things of this nature and have the ability to test the outcome. It only helps further the hobby in general and it helps people like me greatly who do not have the proper tools, time, or money to do so. I truly hope everyone feels the same way.roud:


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## ianiwane (Sep 7, 2004)

yoko said:


> What exactly is in ADA Aquasoil?
> 
> I think I might just make my own soil mix and experiment :icon_neut


People say it is mostly Black soil. People at aquaforest confirm this, they say the type II basically has less black soil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_soil


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

aquanut415 said:


> yes ive used AS alone. also setup a tank with AS and turface underneath....ive setup tanks with as and ps.... and a few other setups as well.


You suggested you had not prior......perhaps I misread.......?



> our opinions are based on our observations, which are not backed by real numerical data.


Mine are.
Would you like the dry weight comparisons for Ludwigia and Myriophyllum?
I have 4 sets of replicates to compare ADA AS and ADA + PS.
So 8 pots total for the Myrios(8 for the Lugs).
Be nice to have 20 etc of each. 
But this is enough to get a decent idea.

I've measured stem length, new side shoots and will do a dry weight before and after 6 weeks. So far(3rd week), there's not any difference, nor with another set of sediments using delta soil, Tahoe soil and potting soil + sand.

One plant is submersed, the others are emergent.

There is a definite difference between SMS, Plain sand and flourite however, about 60% less growth in terms of length.

If there is a difference between ADA AS and ADA AS + PS, it's awful subtle and doubtful it'll be significant. I'm not done with the sediment test as of yet however and the dry weights tend to be pretty good indicators also.
Delta soil is the fastest growing sediments so far and it's a black clay rich sediment.

The system is a slow rate flow through(about 300 gallons), so water is continuously exchanged and thus no interactions between water column leaching is present(water column is continuously flushed).

All growth is due to the sediment nutrient supplies other than Ca, Mg, CO2, light.



> my observations lead me to believe the money spent on PS is worth it, yours obviously differ. why can't i continue to believe what im observing is real?


I'm not saying what you believe is real or not, I'm saying you have not tested it to demonstrate that it is real, there's a difference. That is what I do and like to do. I am looking for more than my belief. Heck, I do not trust myself that much.

You have not offered a method to see or offer support for your hypothesis, have you considered other factors? What might those potentially confounding factors might be? Lack of a green thumb? Come on , I know you better than that. CO2? Dosing? Light?

Why might 2 folks see different things and how might the issue be resolved?
Are both folks right?



> im not telling people that using peat and mulm and all that stuff is useless.... im saying there is one bag with all that stuff already in it and it only costs ~$25.. like it or leave it.


No issue there.
I'm not saying peat is all that great either, mulm simply adds bacteria and some organic carbon to a new tank, similar issue with peat.

ADA AS already is soil/clay and has the peat/reduced carbon, so those extra items are not required/needed.

If you have really tested ADA AS without PS, then you'll also note that it softens the water well and lowers pH, that is due to humics and peat fractions that ADA AS contains.

So it's already got the reduce carbon, the peat and humics.

So we can cross out those ands the the need to add them.

So.........that leaves us with?

Pumice(for better flow in the sediments) and NO3. PS seems to add mainly NO3 in the initial stage(which are used up fairly fast). PS and AS have about the same NH4 content.
I've tested it.

So what is special about pumice and NO3?
That appears to be the main difference between the AS and PS.

Do you have anything to offer as to why what I said might be wrong concerning humics/peat/reduce carbon sources in either product?

I cannot see much difference there.

So all we are left with are the water flow(heating cable theories abound here, after a decade of messing with that one, I'm alright knowing that does not work), so then I'm left with NO3.

Adding KNO3 in the bottom or the water column works fine.
I add things to the water column anyway.

So when I do EI and ADA AS, the system grows better than with the ADA line and ferts alone. 20-28% more. 

Some do not like faster growth, so use less light which is a more practical method to control growth rates(and something ADA does).

I've no issues with folks using PS, I'm just saying and questioning whether it really does anything and should/do we need to bother with it at all.

The ADA PS specials has some other items such as bacteria/clarifier etc, but at 25$ for little bag, then having to add SS mesh to keep it from coming up, now I'm getting a bit past the practical and getting a cost and a hassle issue.

I did note that ADA AS does indeed work and have since switch my tanks over to it. I'll be interested to see how well the soils do against the ADA AS, so far they are the same.

Now this is with just two common weeds, however, I am not going to test 300 species and sacrifice them for dry weights and test. Still, it's more than what's been done by any hobbyists thus far :icon_idea 

Are these are not good questions to ask or something???
I think so and it's nothing personal towards you or whether you should buy something or not, it's your $, but.............

We got PMDD and other $$ saving devices/methods by testing things and using such questioning and approaches rather than simply going, "sure okay, it's easier for me to pay the $$$."

May as well buy the full on ADA tank with everything, like folks did with the Dupla systems, 20 years ago. Folks made the same statements about PO4 limitation and Heating cables back then also. They said you have to do it to have a good tank. They claimed it made things better over the long term and it was subtle(thus not really a difference either way).

Not everyone is willing to drop a $$$ for such stuff if they get the same or similar results without. 

We also learn a lot more by testing and can see and help other folks resolve far more issues on far more types of methods/systems/product lines etc they might have rather than telling them to buy the entire ADA line up.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

ianiwane said:


> People say it is mostly Black soil. People at aquaforest confirm this, they say the type II basically has less black soil.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_soil


Ian, it's got high clay content and then mix the black peat rich soil in.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## aquanut415 (Jan 21, 2006)

im not sure what your point is tom, and ive read every post you have written in this thread at least twice... what are you trying to say?

let me edit that... after rereading your last post again i do understand what you are saying. why use it if it offers no benefit? i think?

as i said earlier, i can't see a big difference between using AS + PS and an established filter during setup than i do with any of the other ways i start aquariums. but i always do something to get the bacteria working for me in addition to using an established filter, if its a lowtech tank i use mulm, or PS for high tech tanks these days. things are working just fine. im willing to part with $25 for a bag of "PS special" rather than ask Ian to take some of his mulm. thats just me.

but i will say, that you have probably discouraged more people from trying to use ADA stuff than encouraged... and for what purpose? if you use it they way ADA says to use it, it works greaT! and that is a great marketing gimmick, you can't buy any product by seachem, or whatever that is so complete and works so well. some people, including myself, would prefer to have a lot of the work done for them when it comes to planted tanks (ive been doing this for years, im over messy substrates, and daily dosing, id pay to have someone come over and clean my tank weekly if i had more money, and all i would do is plan layouts and sit back and observe)... and ada has it almost all in neato little bags and boxes.


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## thatguy (Oct 11, 2005)

AS and PS for me. simple. KISS right.

No dosing, great growth....i grow lbs of HC toninas, erios, etc. 

Ive said it before and I will say it again...if you want to scape plants and focus on design use ASA products. ADA stuff is well designed and visually pleasing.

If you want to spend time chasing down DIY methods, looking for components of a 4 part substrate recipe, testing this or that, wondering about ppm levels, and making your tank a lab, then by all means dont try ADA stuff.


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## thatguy (Oct 11, 2005)

ASA =ADA ..typo.:icon_redf


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