# Kahuna's Revenge (30+ days away OK - NOT!) (56k!)



## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

Sweet!!!

I was wondering when we were going to start another adventure with scolley?

jB


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## Lil boy blue (Jan 26, 2006)

Its goin to be awesome.....from what i can see now Cant wait to see the day pictures


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

dynamite! *Gets bag-O-popcorn*


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## bigstick120 (May 23, 2005)

HA HA HA, that is funny Steve, looking forward to the daylight pics, I like the looks of that wood already!


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## triple red (May 27, 2005)

awesome scolley....nice to see ya jumpin right back into the game


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## turtlehead (May 31, 2005)

Back so quick? At first I thought I was look at an alien landing. Hopefully this will be as amazing as one.


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## yznj99 (Nov 1, 2004)

Finally back with vengeance!


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## D.gilly (Sep 25, 2005)

the adventure begins... the end starting a new begining  it looks good already i cant wait ive always read your journal but never posted im looking foreward to probabily one of the best tanks on the fourm in my eyes your last scape was one of the best too! good luck with the new begining it already look great :thumbsup:


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## Y0uH0 (Dec 19, 2005)

Welcome back to the arena,let this be a real smooth sailing setup. Will be anticipating the daylight pics. Looking good so far already~!


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

No expensive coasters in the water pleeease!!!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

No coasters this time. That's a promise!

Maybe I shouldn't have posted anything, because I'm not intending on an update for quite a while. I'm not gonna wait until the tank is fully mature, but I do want to wait until it gets it's legs, is healthy. And I might... might, wait until it is fully stocked with fish. I'm not sure about that though, as that is going to take a while. But I also am certain that this is one that could be made/broken by the right choice of fish.

All you can really see here is that there is a lot of grow-in to do. It's not a flat aquascape by any means, and I got my hands on a pretty good bit of excellent driftwood.

Thanks for the encouragement. I'll work up some pics of the tank as it was being built. But I'm holding off on actual planted shots until it's ready.


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## jhoetzl (Feb 7, 2005)

Hey, what kind of algae causes that green glow like that?  

Best of luck, waiting (and it sounds like it will be a while) for the update and "daylight" pics...


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

Strange . . . is that the theme from "2001: A Space Odyssey" I hear in the background ?


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## turbowagon (Dec 30, 2005)

Is that moss on the driftwood, or the start of some nasty thread algae??? :eek5: 


















I keed, I keed.... :hihi:


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

Yeah Scolley....it *is* safe to go back in the water! lol


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Here are the obligatory set-up shots...*

I'm trying out some of the ADA stuff. So here's some clickable (for a bigger pic) setup shots.

Here's the blank tank. I to had put a riser on the back left outflow, to get it higher up. And I moved another outflow to the left. Over on the right hand side you can see an air stone to bubble into the tank at night. And the little tube on the far right needs a bit of hard foam filter material on it to keep critters out. It is the tube that will supply the water to the pressure sensor under the tank that controls my auto-water change/auto-top-off.





And as per ADA instructions, here is a layer of Tourmaline BC, but only under the areas where I will be putting Powersand. I didn't use any of their other products that go under the Powersand because...





I used 3/4 of 1 6-liter bag of Powersand Special-M. Apparently the "Special" only needs Tourmaline BC under it, having all those other goodies in it.

I really enjoyed working with the Powersand. For all the world it looks like dirty gravel with chunks of compost in it. It is super easy to spread, and it stays where you put it.





Here's the 2 & 3/4 9-liter bags of Aquasoil Amazonia. It too was really easy to spread. It piles up real easily and does not spread. Though I must confess that with all of this stuff, to make sure I had nice piles working, and tight boundaries, I used a large glass measuring cup to pour the Powersand, Aquasoil, and the...





1.5 8-kg bags of ADA Bright Sand. Unlike pool sand I've used in the past, this stuff did not need to be rinsed, and went in ultra-clean, with no silica dust! Also fairly consistent grain sizes and was clearly pre-cleaned. No bits of garbage in it like some sand I've seen. Great stuff.






And finally, the really cool stuff - the driftwood! The ADG website says to call Jeff Senske and tell him what you want in driftwood, and he'll pick out something that he thinks fits your description. Well, I did. And he did.

I couldn't be happier with the stuff I got. In this photo it is really many different pieces, lashed together with monofilment fishing line and brown twist-ties. The twist ties are the ADA Wood Tight product. But at the end of the day, it's really a nice big spool of brown twist-tie material. It does a pretty good job of holding driftwood together though.




This was obviously all done just before the planting. I finished most of the planting the same evening, with just a little follow-up the next day. So as you saw in the first post, the plants are all in and growing. Now I've just got to get past the whole new tank syndrome stuff, let things grow in, and then maybe add fish.

After that, pics!


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## yznj99 (Nov 1, 2004)

Ah cool ADA stuff, driftwood looks so nice, hope the substrate does not blend! What does the outflow do? filter intake?


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## JED (Nov 10, 2005)

*Awesome start*

Subscribed!!! I must admit I've haven't been on in a while. I finally got my tank established and have become complacent. I really like what you did with the drifwood and sand. This is going to be a great aquascape! So....have you decided on your fertilization method yet? Is it going to be EI? I am looking forward to seeing how this comes along. Thanks for sharing!!! :thumbsup: 

Best regards,

JED


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

yznj99 said:


> What does the outflow do? filter intake?


Yup, bulkheaded through the bottom of the tank. This has been in place for almost a year now with this tank. Works good. But the bulkheads can be finicky. I should have sprung for higher quality bulkhead - but I have 5 and they are expensive. These, if a lot of lateral stress is put on them, can begin to weep. So I get them set up and leave them a lone (unless the tank is drained) and they are fine.


JED - I suppose I could go into the fert plans a bit...

I'm trying to begin with a really lean water column. Hoping to use that as my primary tool in keeping algae from getting a hold - don't feed it. That means vigorous removal of decomposing stuff until the tank has the ability to absorb all the ammonia that creates on its own. That plus for the first few weeks I'm doing a 50% water change every 2 days. Again, that is to keep the levels of ammonia and stuff down until the tank starts to take off.

I'm not planning on fertilizing at all for the 1st month or so, if I can help it. My water has tonnes of N and P in it. I'm depending on the Aquasoil to provide anything else at first.

After that I'm hoping to move to the ADA Step 1 Green Brighty for a few months. That is primarily micros, and not too heavy with iron. During that period I'll dose iron if, and only if, I see signs of deficiency.

After that I'm planning on easing into a fairly normal macro and micro dosing schedule with my existing cache of Greg Watson ferts and TMG. But IMO this aquascape is not going to be a fert sponge - will not be requiring lots of feeding. So I will not be dosing to recommend EI levels.

Every plant I have that is a substrate root feeder should be getting a lot of nourishment from the Aquasoil. Everything that is not a substrate root feeder is a slow grower. So I'm going to keep the levels of ferts in the water column farily moderate.


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## attack11 (May 5, 2006)

that's excessive water changes, why do you don't put some ammonia neutralizing media in your filter and let it cycle naturally without worrying about a spike?

on the topic of a spike .. if you don't have fish, what's the point of worrying about ammonia?

that tank is going to rock once it's grown in.


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## mecgeorgeneo (Aug 12, 2005)

nice, you went for the big baller goods. coool glad to see the tanks back.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

attack11 said:


> that's excessive water changes, why do you don't put some ammonia neutralizing media in your filter and let it cycle naturally without worrying about a spike?
> 
> on the topic of a spike .. if you don't have fish, what's the point of worrying about ammonia?


50% water changes every 2 days for the 1st week or so is what ADA recommends. I'm gonna try it and see if it works.

As for the ammonia, I gather its presence is an algae growth trigger.


And as usual folks, thanks for the kind words. And please don't get put off if I don't respond to every post. I'm really, really going to try to make my contributions to this thread light on words, and heavy on pictures. Thanks.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

Your threads are always a blast to read but you give us so much to work with it is easy to see why this thread will do a page a day :bounce: 

Might be better to start a journal in addition to this album.  
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/journal.php



scolley said:


> And please don't get put off if I don't respond to every post. I'm really, really going to try to make my contributions to this thread light on words, and heavy on pictures. Thanks.


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## JenThePlantGeek (Mar 27, 2006)

I'll keep my comments to a minimum, but I gotta subscribe to this thread. NICE work Scolley!


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Ah, the first green "Abyss" picture brought a smile to my face. Looking forward to it Steve! Substrate fert feeders? Sounds like Anubias etc. and less work for you...judging from the number one deep six photo. This is gonna be fun!


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

Steve, the wood looks fantastic!
I love the color contrast of substrate. How do you vacuum it and keep it separate?


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## Curare (Sep 15, 2004)

WOOO!!!!

Looking good scolley!

This is gonna be a winner methinks!


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

BlueRam said:


> Your threads are always a blast to read but you give us so much to work with it is easy to see why this thread will do a page a day :bounce:
> 
> Might be better to start a journal in addition to this album.
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/journal.php


You know, Steve, I think he's right. I've never even noticed the "Journals" option up there (Duh!), but exploring it a bit, looks like it keeps the comments separate from the updates which is a good feature. As much as I like reading the comments, I also like to get to the meat of the tank history, and some of these threads tend to get rather, er, long :hihi:.


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## Defchilde (Jul 12, 2005)

scolley said:


> Here's the blank tank. I to had put a riser on the back left outflow, to get it higher up. And I moved another outflow to the left. Over on the right hand side you can see an air stone to bubble into the tank at night. And the little tube on the far right needs a bit of hard foam filter material on it to keep critters out. It is the tube that will supply the water to the pressure sensor under the tank that controls my auto-water change/auto-top-off.


*Scolley*, I am curious about the strainers that you have over your filter intakes. Where did you get them?


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

OK - I'm gonna give the Journal a shot!

I don't know how the journals work really. And I don't plan on getting massively long winded over there. But I started one up under the same name - Kahuna's Revenge.

So if I understand how that works, please field most discussion type stuff over there. I'm not asking you to post everything there. Just understand that I'm gonna hold most of my discussion about the tank there.

So, I'm gonna jump over there right now, and answer Defchilde and fresh-newby!


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Its a nice idea and I just found it myself. But, I wonder how many folks will want to navigate to another place. Its just my opinion, but, I like keeping it all in one spot. BTW, that is one scary picture you have on the 75 in the sig, LOL! I imagine you will be glad to retire it soon.


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## Defchilde (Jul 12, 2005)

*Scolley*, thanks for your reply.

*Betowess*, I too am not sure that I would want to be flipping between two windows to see what is going on with a tank. Details about the tank in the journal and photos in a thread here. I think "big clear Kahuna" was one of the threads that _inspired_ the concept of journals.

We will see if it becomes popular or goes the way of the dodo bird.


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## natx (Jun 6, 2006)

I think the journal is actually less appropriate for group discussion since the comments are hidden by default. A forum thread such as this is much better for a long running discussion, seems like the journal is more directly about information that the author wants to share.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Not sure the journal is what I need... what do you think?*

Thanks natx. I'm not real sure about this journal stuff either.

I'm not really interested in keeping a journal - not in the sense of documenting every thing I do. That's what I'm looking to avoid - did that last time.

But I really DON'T mind answering reasonable questions... like the strainers on the outflows - reasonable question, that I'm happy to answer. Questions about the fert plan, or my lack of stems. Same thing applies.

But I'm not convinced this journal thing is going to work...

1st, because I'm not using it as a journal as the function is intended - I'm not posting every change to the tank or maintenance regimen.

2nd, because people have to flip back an forth between the two threads.​
I'm not sure how to balance the fact that I want to not have the thread turn into just another gargantuan discussion without a lot of picture, and the fact that I do what to answer reasonable questions - and get your advice.

I'm inclined to just go with the thread and forget the journal. *What do you folks think? *Thanks.


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

One thread.


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## JED (Nov 10, 2005)

One thread.


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## the_noobinator (Jun 10, 2006)

it's nice to remember your progress via the journal, but then you have to document all your mistakes and errors and outbreaks too, which is desenheartening to look at. i'm way less prone to visit the journals section to view other tanks, mainly because it's another click away, plus i can't read other people's comments which might be helpful to me, or offer comments which might be helpful to others.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*OK, no journal for now...*

OK - that was a pretty quick set of responses. Thanks.

I see the logic of one thread. But I'm not too sure I want to make that one thread a journal. In the Journal it could be all pics on the primary post. But from what I can tell, it could be really, really hard to find a particular comment or subject of discussion.

So I'll stop the journal stuff for now unless a clear case for the journal presents itself.


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## the_noobinator (Jun 10, 2006)

i would only use the journal if i had a huge tank or project to start that a lot of people might want to follow. for now, i'm a novice so that isn't happening.


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

Well, as I tell the husband figure, "How are you going to know if you like it unless you try it?"  

Looks like the "ayes" have it, your "public"  has spoken! Ultimately you are the one of course who is doing the work on either and/or thread/journal and has the final say.


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

The irony is one whole page spent. :hihi: oops guilty as well. :icon_redf


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*What did we miss from the (short) Journal?*

I'm talkative by nature... so if I can just resist responding to good comments, that in itself will keep the thread shorter. So I'll just say :thumbsup: to the last comments.

The Journal did have some stuff that probably bears repeating here, so I will...



*Defchilde *- I got the strainers here. I think I got like the 3.5" variety. And I'm pretty happy with them. They have big slits in them, so your coarse filter in your canister kind of takes a bit of a pounding, due to all the stuff that makes it in. But since they are in the tank you are trying to hide them, usually close to plants. And IMO little tiny slits would be getting constantly clogged.

I spend very little time having to pull decomposing gunk off these. And they are big enough that a big leaf can wrap itself around one, and there still be enough slits open to all decent circulation to continue.

Yup. They are big and bulky. And IMO they do a great job because of it. And of course, having two instead of only one makes a pretty big difference too I think.​

*fresh_newby* - I'm not sure I'm going to be able to keep the substrates separate. But I'm gonna try. The Aquasoil is really granular, nice big chunks. And I've already had some spill over that was fairly easily cleaned up - just pick up the chunks and put them back.

As you can see there is some driftwood that will help keep some of it separate. And I may have to lay down more driftwood to ensure the separation. But at the moment I've got a nice foreground plant growing in the Aquasoil. It is my hope that when (if!!!) it creates a nice carpet over all the Aquasoil, I won't have worry about keeping them separate. Hopefully the carpet will do that for me.

Also, I shouldn't say this because I'm not planning on talking about my plants yet... but IMO stem plants are the biggest enemy of keeping substrates separate. Anything that requires periodic pulling up OR replanting of stems just destroys substrate separation efforts. Well, this tank does not have a single stem plant. Nothing that has to be replanted. Other than trimming and pulling up the periodic runner, I'm planning on leaving the substrate alone.

Hopefully that will help.​

And when fresh_newby asked about the wisdom of starting a tank without stems I added...


*fresh-newby* - I AM DEFINATELY concerned about not having any stems in the tank. Amano has conflicting information on this. One of his websites advocates starting out with stems for all the reasons we all know about. But he has also documented lots of other new installations with either no stems, or so few it's really hard to imagine that they are making a difference.

I'm hoping the keeping most of the nutrients in the substrate, and not the water column will avoid this problem. Also, he advocates AGGRESSIVE removal of algae every 2nd day for the first month or so. And I'm doing that, and until last night (day 7) there were absolutely no visible signs of algae, glass included.

One of the thing Amano advocates is the INSTANT the ammonia peaks and begins dropping, to dump in a ton of Amano shrimp. That's exactly what I plan on doing, and hopefully the small army of hungry amanos will keep any algae trying to show up at bay.

But yes, I am concerned about no stems.​


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## nellis (Oct 27, 2005)

scolley... where are you getting all this methodological information by amano from? all i've ever seen from him are photos and oddly translated sentimental prose. even in the old nature aquarium world books there's not too much information. i'd love to read some of his in-depth stuff if you're getting it from a free source.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

nellis said:


> scolley... where are you getting all this methodological information by amano from?


Where ever I can find it in English! This is a good place for starters.


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

Thanks Steve. I will be interested to see how it turns out. I would be too scared to do it that way...hence my name lol


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## D.gilly (Sep 25, 2005)

I enjoy reading the long explanation post from the old journal lots of good informative stuff i vote for keeping one thread no matter how much writing is done rather than pictures:icon_roll besides pictures are a good thing to take a look at after youve spent 400 hours reading an 82 page thread :icon_roll i cant wait for some daylight pics :thumbsup:


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## cbennett (Oct 20, 2005)

I also vote for keeping one thread, I find all the replies very educational and entertaining plus the journal thing is kind of hard to use. But of course, it's your thang so my vote doesn't really count.  Can't wait to see more pics!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

cbennett said:


> But of course, it's your thang so my vote doesn't really count.


Of course it counts. That's why I asked! :icon_wink 

Seems to be a pretty solid consensus around single thread, and the journal just won't work IMO. So this is it!

Gonna be a while on the daylight pics though. I want to wait until the tank is ready. Right now it's a little thin looking.

To some extent every tank needs really nice photography to show it off. I'm concerned that this tank is going to be very much that way. By design it does not have a lot of color variation, not a large diversity of plants. I chose to keep it very simple so it will provide a dramatic backdrop to fish. That's why the fish choice will be so important.

A wildly diverse set of plants (lots of colors, leaf shapes, leaf sizes, textures) tends to "swallow up" fish visually. The fish don't stand out with so much going on in the background. This tank is just the opposite, a boringly consistent set of plants, with hopefully just enough variation to keep it from being insanely boring. But it should make an outstanding backdrop for the right fish.

So I'm probably waiting on the fish, and that could be quite a while. Sorry.

Right now I'm just happy to be green water and algae free. Knock on wood!


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## naX (Jun 15, 2005)

Subscribed!!!!!! :thumbsup:


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Pics (changed my mind)*

I decided that I was acting badly by not posting any pictures at all. Sorry. I just don't want to be under pressure for updates. But I figured, hey - there's no harm in posting pics from the 1st 24 hours.

Clearly there is a lot of improvements to make. Lot's of grow in. And lot's of cosmetic trimming. This first planting that you see here was just about getting most of the stuff in the areas where it will have to grow. I expect this to look much different, and hopefully better, over the coming months. This is just day 1.

So here's the tank the night I planted. The bubbles are from an air stone that bubbles every nite. It kicked on because it was late. It took a lot of time to wire in over 30 anubias. Be careful if you click these shots - they link to some pretty big photos.




And here is the most common viewing angle in the room it is in. This is the angle it will be most often viewed.




And here I've tied on some moss the next morning. It's not the only place moss is growing. I just don't have a lot and I need to let it grow out more and then spread it around.





Notes about the pics

1) Plant List 
Anubias barteri v. 'Nana'- 27
Anubias Barteri Round Leaf "Giant Mother Plant" - split it up into multiple plants up top, trying to make the top plants larger.
Balansae crypt (Cryptocoryne crispatula) - 10 or so, you can't see them here. They are currently filling in the middle and left background.
Crinum Calimistratum - three of these wacky looking plants. Two to the left, one as contrast on the far right. My buddy Bob's tank (Betowess) got me thinking about how much I've wanted some of these.
Marsilea minuta - you can't see this either. It is spread all around the Aquasoil, and is filling in right now.
Taiwan Moss - Taxiphyllum alternans (or at least that's what I think it is at the moment!)​
2) Tannins
The brown/green coloration is the wood leaching tannins. It's better now. But it is still there.​
3) Things waiting on growth...
The background filling in with crypts
The Marsilea covering the aquasoil
The Anubias growing enough to propagate a bit and spread further
The moss needs to grow out and be spread around. A lot.​
4) Things waiting on the mail...
And I've got a very limited amount of Anubias barteri v. 'Petite Nana' or Anubias Pygmy Nana, on the way. Hoping to spread it on some of the right most wood to not overpower it, and to create a progression of leaf sizes - biggest at top left and hanging out of the tank, smallest on the bottom right.​


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## JenThePlantGeek (Mar 27, 2006)

I had to wipe the drool off my keyboard! Anubias was my first love, and this tank is absolutely marvelous. It actually reminds me a lot of my current 110 (I'll try to post pictures), though I think I like yours better . I have Anubias built up in a triangle to the left topped off with bolbitus, though over driftwood which is more dense - a piece about as big as my leg. Instead of leaving the right side low like you, I put in a HUGE amazon sword, but I'm considering tearing it out. I wish mine was open top like yours! 

I am imagining an A. coffeafolia centered near the bottom, where the ^ shaped driftwood comes together with the /-\ shaped driftwood... making the < - does that make a bit of sense? Haha. Maybe I'll play with photoshop later and see if I can illustrate what I mean.


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## JenThePlantGeek (Mar 27, 2006)

Oh, what's the filter on the right? Is that your main filtration or something extra?


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks Jen. I'd love to see those pics of your ideas! Thank you.

I have to admit, I'm not really a big fan of Anubias. I've grown them before, but they just have never been a plant I am crazy about. But I went with them in a big way because every plant in the tank does not require a lot of light, and can tolerate warm water, and are not particularly tasty to fish. 

So if you take that bit of a clue, coupled with the large area of sand, it doesn't take a genius to figure out what type of fish I'm trying to keep my options open for. Well, that's why I went with Anubias anyway.

OH I forgot! I also chose them because I wanted to go very dimensional with the plants, tiering them like this. And the easiest way to do that is with driftwood and plants that will grow on it. It all kind of added up to Anubias.


The filter on the right
That's just my HOT Magnum micron filter (polisher) to pull all the dust out of the water from the 1st night's filling. It was only there 24 hours.

The primary inflows are two IUnknown supplied lily pipes behind the wood at the top left. And the outflows are on the bottom, left side, somewhat hidden by the plants and driftwood. They should be completely hidden soon.


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## pineapple (Jan 22, 2004)

Lovely aquarium and nice design. Looks like it will mature nicely. My only comment is that the Marsilea minuta tends to get looked over in such settings. The regular Marsilea species, though, does very well and tends to the 4-leaf version too if left to do its thing. Another fern, Isoetes is also a possibility. Looking forward to seeing how this works out and how the powersand does.


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## JenThePlantGeek (Mar 27, 2006)

Haha, I cut out a picture of the A. coffefolia from a picture that fresh_newby posted of her tank. It is a start that I sent her. In real life it wouldn't be quite so dark, alas my photoshop skillz are lacking! It might make a nice eyecatcher though 

OOOOoooh and I think I know what fish you'll have... *excited happy dance*!!!


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## naX (Jun 15, 2005)

scolley said:


> So if you take that bit of a clue, coupled with the large area of sand, it doesn't take a genius to figure out what type of fish I'm trying to keep my options open for. Well, that why I went with Anubias anyway.


Hmmmm, got any plans for rocks in your hardscape?


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## bigstick120 (May 23, 2005)

Nice Steve, African cichlid tank perhaps???


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

I wouldn't think African Cichlids would be too happy with a CO2 injected tank. I'm thinking Discus, although I don't know too much about them so I could very well be way off base.


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## bigstick120 (May 23, 2005)

Africans are fine in a CO2 tank see my sig! Discus are plant friendly and he says, plants that have a bad taste!


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

Well, if that happens to be the case and they're anything like the Brichardi my BIL keeps, he'd never get bored with the aquascape as the little b*ggers are always moving rocks around to suit themselves :hihi:!


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## cbennett (Oct 20, 2005)

i'm sooooo glad you changed your mind! I really love photos of tanks while they are being put together as it is more helpful for me to figure out what to do rather than try to reverse-engineer a perfect grown-in tank. 

I personally love the look in this 'scape, it is very dramatic and there's a lot to be said for having different textures rather than different colors vying for your attention. I personally love anubiases(?) anubiasi(?) because there are so many shapes, sizes, textures. I have barteri, nana, coffeefolia (lovely crinkly texture plus yellow underneath!), lanciolata(sp?), frazerii and a marbed nana. I think the balansae crypt, moss and marsilea will look perfect together (again I'm biased since I have them too) and you will find them easy to grow. I have the larger marsilea but I found it quickly filled in my tank (I have all AS Amazonia) while not having the overwhelming properties of glosso or HC. I did notice that the marsilea did jump over a terracota cave to get to the back of my tank, so keep an eye out for runners going to the lighter areas. Easy to cut back if they do. 

I love the hints about the fish! If I had to guess, will you will be getting some african or central american cichlids in there?


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## alexandre (May 11, 2005)

Very sweet! The triangular layout is the best adapted if your are not seating just opposite your tank, so I am sure you will be pleased with it. If I’m right and your choice is discus or wild discus your choice of plants is clever (don’t need to mush of macro dosing and the minimum maintenance inside the aquarium).


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Wow! Thanks folks. Lots to reply to. I'll try to not get too long winded...

*pineapple *- Thanks for the advice. But I'm kinda planning on the Marsilia getting overlooked. I don't want it to call attention for itself. I just want it to green in the aquasoil - cover the dirt as it were. It IS NOT, in my mind, a feature to this tank. Just a ground cover that works within the conditions of the tank.

*Jen *- I like the coffefolia. Gorgeous plant. But I'm trying very hard to create a monochromatic tank. I want the tank to be one color so the fish will POP! visually to the viewer. But if I was not being monochromatic, that is a great suggestion IMO. Thanks.

*Nax *- no rocks. Actually would have used them if I could have easily gotten my hands on some that did not mess with the water chemistry. But I would have hidden them anyway - they would have been just filler under the driftwood.

*bigstick120 *- Cichlids? Could be. But Africans? No. Too hard for me, rearranging stuff on me... Though the are beautiful.

But did I mess up on the clues? I though Discus could be a problem with tearing at some plants. Nothing like Africans, but still an issue... Sorry if I misled you with that!

*RoseHawke *- Cindy! Ding! Ding! Ding! That's the ticket!
I want Discus. I really, really, really do. But I've never kept them. And I can think of a world of reasons why I shouldn't. But I think they would look great in this tank.

And some of you may have notice that I've been busting my hump trying to get an automatic water change mechanism working. I know there are lot of talented discus keepers that will tell you that large, frequent water changes are not necessary. But I'm not an experienced Discus keeper, so I've got the tank automatically doing 50% water changes on me every two days - with out any intervention on my part - so I'm ready for big water changes if my lack of discus keeping skill forces that upon me.

But I should emphasize... I WANT discus. But I'm not sure I'm ready for that step. The tank is designed to be suitable for them if I make that leap, and workable for a large number of other tropicals if I don't.

*cbennett *- Thanks for the comps. And that was an astute observation... I am absolutely going for contrasting textures, on a monochromatic color palette. And frankly, I'm trying to make the anubias shape the dominant plant texture with moss, and two different types of long thin crinkly leaves as a counterpoint. 

It's also worth noting, and this may be a mistake, but I'm trying to break up that monochromatic, dominant anubias leaf texture by the progression in leaf sizes. Big at the top left, average in most of the tank, and very small in the bottom right when I get the petite nana planted in a few days.

*alexandre *- Ding! Ding! Ding! for you too! Not only did you get the discus, but you correctly intuited that between the AS for the soil planted plants, and the slower growing anubias on the wood, I have a very low requirement for ferts in the water column. Again, just another very strong plus for this as a discus tank! Good thinking!

And yes, while the tank does look OK straight on (IMO) in person, it definately looks best when viewed at an angle - the primary viewing angle - much more dramatic. You can see the build up of layers and progression of height, that just does not show up as well viewing straight on a tank that is only 18" front to back. Viewing at an angle improves the perspective a lot, or at least that was the plan.


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## Y0uH0 (Dec 19, 2005)

Fantastic looking tank! Really natural looking and perfect for discus which u are intending to keep. I'd love to see the tank mature and fill in.But one thing is for sure,with that amount of water change on such a regular basis,it's gonna be a huge rip out of your wallet.But then again,it is the end product that we are all yearning for and no amount of money as long as it is within our means will stop us from fulfulling our goal.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Y0uH0 said:


> one thing is for sure,with that amount of water change on such a regular basis,it's gonna be a huge rip out of your wallet.But then again,it is the end product that we are all yearning for and no amount of money as long as it is within our means will stop us from fulfilling our goal.


Good point certainly. But I don't intend to keep at 50% water changes every 2 days but for a little while longer. Amano recommends a week as far as I can tell. I pushed it to 2 weeks. By the 4th or 5th week I'll be down to a normal 50% weekly I expect, unless an algae problem starts.

This is day 14 for the tank, and so far no visible algae anywhere... but I'm almost afraid to say that. Don't want to jinx myself.

And I don't WANT to do 50% every 2 days to just keep Discus. And I'm not at all sure I'm ready for discus. In fact, I probably will wind up with something easier to keep. I've just set up a tank that keeps my options open.

One of my biggest reservations is that I've set up a tank that should require minimal maintenance. Seems a shame to offset that with a fish that may be a constant struggle to keep healthy and happy.


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## alexandre (May 11, 2005)

Steve,

Discus are not that hard, providing you get them from a good source, give them good diet, good water and keep a minimum of 8 (juveniles) or 4/5 (adults) for the size of your aquarium.
With a discus tank; You keep the water and the water will keep the discus.


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## Bert H (Dec 15, 2003)

Steve, glad to see the resurrection of the kahuna! I like the look you've set out with. I also tip my hat to your starting a tank heavily with Anubias. I know when I set up my 50, I placed a whole foreground of petite nanas in, and they slowly, but surely, became an algae magnet. It took me six months to get over it. But then again, I wasn't dealing with AS - that may well be the trick. :thumbsup: If you're interested in any Crypt. spiralis, I will be removing a few plants from a tank next week, let me know. Again, looking good!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks Alexandre. The provision of good food is no big deal. Water I've got covered. It's the feeding part I'm concerned about. If I get adults I gather I can get away with as little as 1 or 2 feedings a day. But I really, really don't see myself as willing to gravel vac that excess food up once or twice a day. Too much work.

Also, if I bought adults (with the intent of reducing the required feeding frequency) then I'm looking at a serious investment in fish that live for years. Suddenly my "planted tank" turns into a "discus tank". And when this aquascape eventually goes south, as they all do, I'll be scrambling to create something new that is suitable for discus again. Instead of being free to try something new.

So you can see I am ambivalent about discuss. I really, really, want them. And have gone to a lot of trouble to be able to keep them if I chose. But I have some significant reservations also.


Bert - you ninja posted on me, so I'm modifying this post....
Thanks pal. I'm sorry to hear about your trouble with the petite nana's. My water column is really lean. So I'm hoping I won't fall into that same trap. But that is the trap for all Anubias really - algae on everything but the new leaves. But Amano seems to be able to do it big time, so I'm hoping the AS will do the trick to. Gonna be an expensive experiment if I'm wrong.

Thanks for the plant offer. But I've got the last of it arriving today. And once I get them in, other than frequent pruning of dead or dying leaves (very strong Amano recommendation for that initially) I'll be keeping my hands out of the tank and leaving the plants alone. Thanks though.


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## alexandre (May 11, 2005)

I understand your point. When I was living the UK I was keeping and breeding discus (just for the fun, nothing big). But when I left to go to work in Cyprus, it was mush harder than I thought to have to sell the discus. It ended up to be a real bummer.
If you feed your young discus 4/6 times a day in small quantity there is no raison to vacuum every day. This is more for bare bottom aquarium and discus breeder who want fast growing by providing a lot of food and very good water quality.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

Steve this tank looks AWESOME!! the discus are going to love it. 

just so you are aware, if you get some little ones its best to keep them in schools of like 4-6 ish. they are less stressed that way. you should prolley feed them a couple times a day too and with them being in a plantd tank, they are going to grow much slower and not as big. they will still get some very nice size to them but they wont be dinner plates like some are. with the little juvis and such like that it is alittle more important to do regular water changes on them but my big fish dont mind the lack of changes really. however, the tank in general just needs the changes so they get a semi regualr change anyway. 

i wish you the best of luck with this tank, i cant wait to see how it fills out, if its even half as good as the onther one i'll be amazed.


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

Discus are beautiful, and I used to think I wanted to have some (a loooooong time ago,) but geez! These days I equate them with orchid-growing - a very _specialized_ branch of the hobby. I'll just admire other folks' .


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks Geoff. And thanks for the feedback folks. But let me bottom line this...


I'm NOT gonna feed anything more than twice a day. My schedule does not permit that.
And I'm not vacuuming the bottom any more often than once a week AT BEST. I'm too adverse to routine drudgery - would take the joy out of it for me.


And please keep in mind, I don't WANT big discus. I'm not interested in swimming dinner plates. A school of 5-6 small discus would be outstanding.

So where does that leave me with discus? Your thoughts are MOST welcome. Thanks.


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## Dood Lee (Jan 14, 2005)

I feed my discus frozen bloodworms via feeder cones. It took a while to train them (for me at least) but now they all know to peck at the cones to get their food. This means that no food will go to waste, and any worms that make it to the bottom would be eaten by other fish or shrimp. Also, since you have an open top tank, you can just remove the feeder cones when the discus are done eating.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

scolley said:


> Thanks Geoff. And thanks for the feedback folks. But let me bottom line this...
> 
> 
> I'm NOT gonna feed anything more than twice a day. My schedule does not permit that.
> ...


where that leaves you is fine. i feed mine twice a day and if they are still hungry they beg and can forage in the plants for something to eat. they are algae eaters in the wild believe it or not. 

not vaccuming the bottom is fine anyway. makes for some nice mulum. haha. when my 55 was set up good and growing plants well, i never once vaccumed it or did water changes really. is it the best way to go about things, prolley not but as soon as i started getting regualr with them the tank started to have terrible algae problems. so the leasoni learned is stop touching it and it will fix itself. 

your want for a school of 4-6 discus is very possible and good for the fish. in that tank at 2x feedings and wc every couple days i would expectthem to get about 5" or so. maybe alittle smaller then that but they will be great looking in there. i would still go for it steve. :thumbsup:


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

pineapple said:


> Lovely aquarium and nice design. Looks like it will mature nicely. My only comment is that the Marsilea minuta tends to get looked over in such settings. The regular Marsilea species, though, does very well and tends to the 4-leaf version too if left to do its thing. Another fern, Isoetes is also a possibility. Looking forward to seeing how this works out and how the powersand does.



Ditto... Very, very nice Steve! I have a good feeling algae won't really be an issue this time, save for normal new tank issues etc. Love the Crinum too. They will do a lot better with enough light so the ones on the left might not grow as fast. Only thing is, in my overstocked tank, they are a BBA magnet. But a squirt of Excell seems to clean them up pretty fast.

I have not found that Marselia crenata morphs to the four leaf version, at least not in my tank, yet. Occasionally I see a few clover four leafs, but not very often. And I vote yes for the minuta! Because I wanna clipping, LOL.

But moss, well, I've come to the conclusion that it really is a higher maintenance plant ...quickly collecting detrius unless one trims it and fluffs often. This is going to be an outstanding tank. But no surprise there, except for the Discus. :thumbsup: So, is the foreground sand area going to be left clear?


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

wow i catch this thread a few days late... and i already missed the chance to beat everyone to tell them what's going in it.... lol.

i think that the tank will look GRREAT i would wait a few months on the discus first tho to make sure everything is good... which it seems like you are gonna do. 

before you add the discus i would add a good group of cory cats and otto algea eaters as well as shrimp! 

now what im wondering is what type of discus are going in there? i also just look at the tank and want to see threadfin or really small rainbows in there for some reason.... ehh who knows.

goooood luuuuuck! cant wait to see it with the fish!

(if you want any other moss... like striny moss let me know i would love to send you some)

- fish newb -


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

Wow looking great, I cant wait until you release more photos, especially with the discus in there.

Jumping back a ways, I agree with the one thread decision, however if you were to post your big photo updates in the journal then people could catch up on the thread quickly, of course you dont have the problem of monster threads so that is kinda moot. . .


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Not going "by the book" confession...*

WHEN'S THIS TANK GONNA CYCLE?
I did not set the tank up _exactly by the book_. Well, that is if I was supposed to _start with an empty tank, and dry filter_ anyway.

I've got so much wacky plumbing (_in-line heat, in-line CO2, in-line pH probe, in-line electrical ground, in-line drain/fill, in-line temp probe, in-line UV, and bulkhead drains, bulkheaded level sensing, and bulkheaded airation_) that plumbing changes can be a real PITA. A lot of stuff has to be drained if I'm gonna dry out the tank. The flip-side of that is whenever I change anything, I have a lot of joints that have to be confirmed as OK when I refill the tank. Also I needed to keep the tank full so I could test my auto drain/refill mechanism.

So after I treated for the algae from my prior scape, by flushing the chlorox and hydrogen peroxide (at different times!), I did not leave the tank drained and dry.

Instead I refilled my tank, changed the filter media (seeded with media from my 20g) and tossed in a bunch of moss and handful of cherry shrimp, and 1 otto cat (all from my 20g). The tank ran like this, as a grow-out place for moss, with shrimp and an otto for a quite few weeks. And the moss grew great!

I used a good bit of that water in my new aquascape when I planted it two weeks ago. And did not change filter media. So now my problem is, _the tank water/filter, may have cycled while I wasn't paying attention_.

Now that the tank is really planted, every day ammonia is about 0.25, nitrites 0, and nitrates 5-10. I have nitrates in my tap BTW. And this is complicated by the fact that I'm following the Amano dictum of putting carbon in the filter at first, and doing 50% water changes every 2 days.

So I test and watch. But in two weeks there has been no ammonia spike, no nitrite spike. Maybe it's already cycled. Maybe it won't cycle with the carbon and high water changes. Maybe I haven't waited long enough. Don't know.


RESPONSES

*Dood Lee* - Thanks for the cone tip. Sounds like a good idea.

*TheOtherGeoff *- Thanks Geoff. Sounds like discus are still on the roster of possible fish! Cool.

*Betowess *- Thanks Bob. I've got my eye on that shaded Crinum. That may be a mistake in this tank. I'll be watching it. And most of my moss it above the floor, so I'm hoping it will stay clean. Again, time will tell. And yes, that sand area will remain just as you see it. In fact, keeping it that way will be one of the challenges.

*Fish Newb* - Thanks for the moss offer. But this stuff is growing like gang-busters. And I don't want to start mixing mosses - going for a consistent look.

*lumpyfunk *- Yea, it kinda comes down to "do you want to do photos in the Journal? Or text in the Photo Album?" I pick the latter, and some other people indicated their preference for the same.


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## Wingsdlc (Dec 9, 2005)

So I have been reading through your thread. It looks like you have done a very nice job up to this point. Great work with the plumbing and drift wood. I was wondering if you could take some picture of your plumbing to show it off. It seems quite interesting and creative on your part. 

Discus will sure look sharp in this tank!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Pics at end of Week 2*

Wingsdlc - I'm gonna have to think about those stand shots. It is so jam packed, that at a distance it won't look like much. It's well organized and sturdy, but there is so much in there, with much out of view, or hidden behind other things, that I don't think photos would do it justice. I'd need a wide angle lens, and worse, about ten pages of text to describe everything. But I'll think about it.


*PICS*
Here's some pics at the end of the 14th day. This is after I've added 10 more nana's, a hand full of petite nana's, another crinium, a couple more balanese. 

I should also mention I dropped 35 amano's in a couple of days ago. Six have since croaked in the tank, and at least two tried to crawl back to Japan and died in the effort. There could be more. And I added a few more ottos, for a total of 6. It's nice to see them hanging out together.

Here's a straight on shot




The right side (best angle in person)




Left angle




And the current "Abyss Shot", as Bob put it.:hihi: 





I suppose this isn't going to look dramatically different without fast growers in there. All the Anubias are flowering like mad - I assume just from the change in conditions they went through. And the balanese crypts have had a moderate amount of melt, but not awful. The crinium has had some dieback too, primarily on leaf ends. But the marsilea is spreading around happily.

The moss is growing great, so I'm using trimmings to cover more driftwood. Over the next six weeks I should have enough to have covered any driftwood that is going to get covered. After that it will be maintenance trimming only.

There's no algae yet that I can see, but my outflows are getting GSA, so I'm gonna have to deal with that this weekend.

And it has now become clear that I will have to put something in to keep the AS on the left separate from the sand. That's OK - I can fix that. I just want to keep the plants healthy and algae at bay!


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

Looks like your moss is really taking off ! Great!

With your choice of plants you won't have much if any problems with runners, but I just wanted to mention that I think I've found the real use for that ridiculous little spatula thingie that's always included in landscaping kits.

Runner knife . Especially if you sharpen it a bit. Take it and drag that sucker through the substrate around the plants you're trying to keep corraled to sever wandering roots. Works a treat. If somebody's already wandered over the border, once the runner is severed they're much simpler to pull up without uprooting half the tank.

Maybe another bit of driftwood for a separation on the left side? Although with the one you've already got that looks like it's serving a similar function that may look too artificial.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

RoseHawke said:


> Maybe another bit of driftwood for a separation on the left side? Although with the one you've already got that looks like it's serving a similar function that may look too artificial.


Cindy, I'm frankly quite concerned about that "artificial" look. I don't know if you can see it, but the driftwood going around the curve on the right is now covered in moss. I may do that to the other piece. But that may not be the end point.

It is my hope that when (if!) the marsilea fills in, that I'll have the option of removing the driftwood boarders completely without the threat of the AS spilling into the sand.

Also, IMO when the marsilea fills in, the eye will not be so sensitive to the border. I think the reason we are so sensitive to that border now is because we can see the Aquasoil. When that's invisible, it should all just look like a stand of plants growing on the sand. I hope.

And with your sharpened spatula thingie tip (thanks!) I could conceivable keep that border reasonably neat, but still natural looking. It's gonna take time to see how that pans out.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

awesome. thats gonna be a great discus house.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

it keeps getting better looking day by day..... its funny how you said its nice to see the otto's together and in the pic. with the otto its all by itself :icon_roll lol....

on the left what if you left it like that and let it mix in some? soon it should be hidden...

good luck the tank looks great! i was actually thinking of doing something like this... and now that ive seen it done i want to do it even more.... 

-=- fish newb -=-

oh and twords the right side whats with the bubbles? is that co2? i thought you had filter intakes there but idk why it would bubble....


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## Dood Lee (Jan 14, 2005)

Has anyone here kept discus in an open top tank? The more I think about it, the more hesistant I am to suggesting that discus be kept in Scolley's tank. I have heard of discus jumping out of tanks, and I wouldn't want Scolley to spend money on fish that would end up making the leap. Just something to think about...


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

Looks great, Steve. Trust me, the Marselia fills in quicker than you think. I think the shape of the Marselia leaves will compliment the shape of your Anubias bigtime. Looks great!


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Dood Lee said:


> Has anyone here kept discus in an open top tank? The more I think about it, the more hesistant I am to suggesting that discus be kept in Scolley's tank. I have heard of discus jumping out of tanks, and I wouldn't want Scolley to spend money on fish that would end up making the leap. Just something to think about...


My local fish store keeps all their Discus in open top / MH lit tanks. Spendy ones and wilds too. Well, they're all spendy I suppose.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

i kept my discus in an open top tank. they were fine in there. only reason i have a top on now is because 86* water evaporates REAL fast. haha


discus really arent that spendy, just talk to the fish store and see about local clubs, you can usually find a breeder who will sell em cheap. i know two of them and i can get discus for free and very cheap too. its all in who you know. hehe


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## Curare (Sep 15, 2004)

Ooooohhhhhh love it Steve!

Soo Impressed, I love the minimal look, and the general clean look of the tank and the setup.

I'd have to say I Like this a better than the original kahuna.

And it can only get better man.


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

I'm glad things are progressing well, Steve. One criticism if I might (shudder) ... the left side is a little dark because of all the mass near the top of the water. This might hurt you a bit when it comes to entering the tank in AGA or ADA contests.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

John P. said:


> One criticism if I might (shudder) ... the left side is a little dark because of all the mass near the top of the water. This might hurt you a bit when it comes to entering the tank in AGA or ADA contests.


Criticism is welcome John. Especially when it is one I agree 100% with. :icon_wink 

I spent hours and hours cobbling together different driftwood arrangement. And everything I liked overall had this high-up top/front heavy problem. And the ADG driftwood was soooo nice, I was loathe to start breaking or sawing pieces up. I did break one piece, and it broke my heart to do it.

So this went together with this understood "limitation" that I'm just going to have to keep my eye on as things grow out. It could be that judicious trimming will help. Or I may be forced to take a hacksaw to some of the driftwood. Time will tell.

As for the AGA contest. I''ll enter. But this tank is just not prize winning caliber. So I don't have a lot of emotional baggage wrapped up in that event this year.



*NEWS FLASH!*
Upon request, last year the AGA entered peoples aquascapes into the ADA International Aquatic Plants Layout Contest 2006. I just got notification that the old Big Clear Kahuna aquascape placed 603 out of 959. that's the bottom half! I suppose I can take solace in knowing that in the big league contest, 1/3 of the entries were worse, and that by the skin of my teeth I squeaked into the middle third.




*Fish Newb *- whenever you see those bubbles, it's because I've stayed up late working on the tank and that the automatic night-time airstone aeration came on - and I was too lazy to shut it off for pics.


*Curare *- Thanks pal. I don't mind saying that in my mind's eye of where I hoped the original Big Clear Kahuna aquascape could go, it could have been better. We all only saw it in it's infancy (or sick). The original design, if it could have worked, I think might have been stellar. But it didn't work, and that's water under the bridge now.


*Dood Lee, Betowess, TheOtherGeoff* - The open top/discus jumper issue is a great one. Thanks for your thoughts. 

Someone PM'ed me about this a few days ago, and I'm glad you have evidence that it will be OK. I've got an open top 20g, and I can tell you I definately lose jumpers at a higher rate in the rimless 75g. So it's open top, but worse. I think just not having a rim increases "successful" jumper.

My experience to date with this tank is that I will lose a significant number of fish to jumping. Usually in the first few days of the fish being in the tank. But it is still a common occurrence in my house to walk into the den and find a dried up fish (or shrimp) on the floor in the morning by the 75g.

From what I can tell, for both shrimp and fish, those that are gonna jump do. And they do it primarily in the first few days, or for the less jump inclined, over the next few months. But after that any given population of fish seems to settle down to a group for whom jumping is rare or even never happens.

Maybe there is a Darwinian thing going on - the jumpers get taken out. And those that have the temperament for the environment (not jumping) remain.

I IF I get discus (and that is a really big IF) I'll get a few more than I hope to retain long term. So for a group of 5, I'll buy 7.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

in all honesty steve if you get your discus from a good supply then i would not be worried about losing any at all. only reason i lost themis because the angels i had paired and started killing EVERYTHING and then i lost one to some crazy baterical infection that was just having a good ole time doing a genocide on my tank but that certain fish was recently cured of HTH diesease which didnt help the situation. solution to that, feed more garlic. haha. i still think you should get some. they arent nearly as hard to take care of as people make them out to be.


i just thought of this, you know what would look awesoem in that tank, red line barbs. expensive and prolley more fragile then discus but they would look so sweet in there. or about 150 cardinals. haha


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## attack11 (May 5, 2006)

a huge school of harlequin rasboras would be pretty nice once they colored up.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

In all likelihood, if it is not discus, it will be a large set of a schooling fish. Just shoaling is not enough - they gotta school. It's either discus, a big school of fish, or a combination thereof.

That's the plan anyway.


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## jsenske (Dec 20, 2004)

WHOA STEVE! Amazing job, man! I am very impressed. So glad the wood worked out for you! You brought it together like a real veteran. 

My personal advice would be to stick with schooling fish/tetras or rasboras. Attack11's suggestion is great I think. So many possibilities with that layout. 

Discus are do-able, but honestly I think they will add to your maintenance requirements quite a bit. 
1. They can jump-- I had 3 jump out of an open top recently, mostly when the tank was new and they were still easily frightened. 
2. Bloodworm only diet does not yield superb growth and is quite messy in the long term. HAI-FENG "Ever-Nature" Discus is an amazing dry food that is VERY high in protein (bloodworms are mostly WATER), and fish absolutely LOVE IT! Also, it is VERY VERY clean-- much cleaner than any frozen food. 
3. If you do go discus, remember they really prefer groups, and honestly, IMO, your tank is a littel small for them. It is do-able, but IMO a little small to really do discus right. If you do them, get a nice adolescent size. Stay away from small fish as they will likely not grow very well on a limited diet and water change regimen such as that we do an a planted tank. Breeders grow out small fish by feeding HEAVILY and changing water daily/several times per week. Trust me, I have done this/tried this many times. I also have a dear friend right here in Houston that is one of the premier breeders in the country, and have learned tons from him. 

Tetras/rasboras are just so easy and have no negative affects on any other aspect of the tank. 

Again, AWESOME tank and so glad I was able to help you get some goods for this new venture. I will be following closely and anxiously along with everyone else!


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

scolley said:


> In all likelihood, if it is not discus, it will be a large set of a schooling fish. Just shoaling is not enough - they gotta school. It's either discus, a big school of fish, or a combination thereof.
> 
> That's the plan anyway.


Well put a whole buncha tetras in there and a couple of big a** angels :hihi: I guarantee they'll school.

Of course, you'll have to have a weekly tetra budget .


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

scolley said:


> *NEWS FLASH!*
> Upon request, last year the AGA entered peoples aquascapes into the ADA International Aquatic Plants Layout Contest 2006. I just got notification that the old Big Clear Kahuna aquascape placed XXX out of 959. that's the bottom half! I suppose I can take solace in knowing that in the big league contest, 1/3 of the entries were worse, and that by the skin of my teeth I squeaked into the middle third.


Congradulations on the AGA result. I though we need to wait for the official anouncement to release our numbers... I was just glad not to be 959.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

scolley said:


> In all likelihood, if it is not discus, it will be a large set of a schooling fish. Just shoaling is not enough - they gotta school. It's either discus, a big school of fish, or a combination thereof.
> 
> That's the plan anyway.


You hit it on the head re: jumpers in the first few days. And that's what an expert breeder of Cichlid/LFS owner told me once too. So the easy solution is to put a top on it for a day or two with new fish... and remove after a couple of days if its a spendy school.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

RoseHawke said:


> Well put a whole buncha tetras in there and a couple of big a** angels :hihi: I guarantee they'll school.
> 
> Of course, you'll have to have a weekly tetra budget .


lmao i was thinking the SAME THING! some nice gold veil pearlscales would look awsome in that tank.....

as for the fish jumping... here is a crazy idea.... get a few BIG pieces of plexiglass(plastic) and use them to cover the tank when you get new fish.... so like the first week they are in it... so they cant jump out of the tank:icon_roll they can try,... buut probly not get that far....

you could also hope to try and find a group of discus who are runts or something so they never get too too big but that would probably be rare....

congrats on ada contest.... if i entered mine i woulda came last in aga! i have NO scape atm.... lol

so those where airstones! i thought so =-p

good luck... im sure whatever you have in there will look great!

also have you considered altums? i think that tanks big enough for a treo... how tall is it?

- fish newb -

BOB YOU NINJA POSTED ME!!!! o[qugypgbfvqe[vq lol


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*jsenske *- Wow Jeff! A nice compliment like that coming from a pro like you means a lot! Thanks. Was that just payback because I said nice stuff about your book? :hihi: Just kidding! I'll take compliments like that any day!

And thanks a mil' for the good discus advice. But discus is just a possibility. Not an inevitable thing.


*RoseHawke *- I'm not an Angel fan Cindy, but you are indeed RIGHT ON TARGET. I could not agree more in principal. I believe I've stated before, I'm strongly inclined toward a nice school of fish plus some big honking predators to make d*mn sure they school! Would look awesome, even if you did have to periodically add extras to the school, to make up for the ones that go "missing" periodically.


*BlueRam *- Whoa! You got me! I wasn't supposed to say anything? Is that what all that ill-translated mumbo-jumbo legal stuff was in that letter? I guess I messed up. Can't wait to see how everybody else did though! Hint hint.


*Betowess *- Good idea Bob. I figured that one out as I lost one expensive Rainbow darter a night. By the third night I finally had a blinding flash of the obvious and created a night-time cardboard top that I used for the next two weeks. After that, no more jumpers - except 1 about 3 months later. But that was all. It settled into a "not jumping inclined" population. I'm sure the same thing could be done with discus.


*Fish Newb* - What newb? Another Angel recommendation? I dunno. Maybe there was something wrong with my upbringing - I just don't like angels. I'm not sure, but I suspect that it is because when I was a kid, eons ago, every doctor's office had a big tank of angels for you to look at to calm you down before you went in for your shots.

I suppose it's conditioned response, Pavlov's dogs and all that. Now when I see angels, I wince and go "ouch!"



BTW - I should not say this, because I'm not telling. But the only decision I've got to make is Discus or schooling fish, or both. But on the schooling fish side, if I do it, I made up my mind about that fish long ago. I do appreciate the suggestions, as I'd love to find out about a mistake before I make it. But short of compelling new information coming in, the schooling fish species has been narrowed down to a field of one.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

dont do angels. do something different. only angels i could see in there are altums. that would certainly be yourpredator making the little fish school. haha. that big tank Oliver Knott has in germany has like a dozen altums in it. in one year they ate like 3-400 neons. haha


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

SAE's school. (LOL, just kidding).


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## mecgeorgeneo (Aug 12, 2005)

nice pics of your tank, i like what you did with the anubias, looking good


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## Defchilde (Jul 12, 2005)

TheOtherGeoff said:


> i just thought of this, you know what would look awesoem in that tank, red line barbs. expensive and prolley more fragile then discus but they would look so sweet in there. or about 150 cardinals. haha


I think that red-lines would be a nice fish for that tank with/without the discus. The colors would really jump out at you with the backdrop of green. However, one note of caution. I am not sure that your marsilea would do well with red-lines, I had _Echinodorus tenellus_ in my tank UNTILL I got red-lines, now I have none. Some have had success with their red-lines not eating the plants in the tank, mine have, and continue to chew on my plants from time to time.


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

> Another Angel recommendation?


I think it's more that we all _know_ that tetras look great in a big school, and that we *also* all know that angels are their natural predators. It's just a logical progression .

Although personally I like angels (_my_ dentist's office just had an indoor "pond" with goldfish  ,) and am trying to figure out what variety I might like to add to my tank later. Pearlscale veils, maybe super-veils, of some sort is all I know for sure at the moment.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*New topic... I'm done with fish (don't even have any yet!)*

I've been trying to put together a tank set up timetable based on what I can gather on bits and pieces of Amano's (or ADA) thinking. And I'm trying to follow that with my tank for the first few months of its life.

That means among other things that I don't put anything in the water for the first month except Python Git. And I have been using that regularly.

But in my recent readings, I noticed ADA recommending using their Brighty K product to dechlorinate water. That is apparently one of its minor properties, the other being basically a potassium liquid fert. And it got me thinking...

The new plants dependendent on ferts in the water column are supposed to be getting their limited N and P needs from natural processes in the tank right now, but not K. Maybe that is another reason ADA uses Brighty K. New tanks do well on their limited internal sources of N &P, but have no source of K, so maybe it's needed at first.

And then I did a hard look at the plants, and sure enough, the Anubias are starting to show possible potassium deficiency - dark spots on older leaves, turning into pinholes!

So I whipped out the Greg Watson and dosed about 4 (no, not 40) ppm of K2SO4. I figure I'll continue dosing a bit of K at the same rate as I do a 50% water change, which at the moment is about every 3 days.

If this works out, I'll be starting the ADA low-iron micros (otherwise called Step 1) in about a week and a half. 


PS - 18 days and not a spec of algae to be seen. Not on the plants, hardscape, or glass (just that limited green spot in the in-flow tubes). Knock on wood.


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

makes sense about the Potassium needs. The other macros are present, but you cannot get enough Potassium from the Aquasoil alone so a supplement is needed.
We are rooting for ya, Steve....
Algae free!


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## Lorenceo (Jan 29, 2004)

Looks fantastic so far man. roud:
I hope it all goes well and the algae stays non existant.
Be sure to post plenty of pictures..


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

I've always put 1.5 teaspoons of K in 50 gallons of change water for a long time. No other K during the week til the next water change. I think I got that from Rex. Its simple and it has always worked out OK. My source is from Greg Watson too. Glad to hear its algae free Steve!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*It's baaaaack!*

Well, because I'm clearly working off some bad karma from another life, I found evidence of thread algae on the glass yesterday. 

There were little tiny bright green threads, maybe 1 mm long, but some were beginning to form branches and were about 1.5 mm long. I almost soiled my bloomers!

But instead I recalled my brilliant deduction yesterday, and my subsequent addition of Potassium. That's the only thing that has changed, other than the fact that my ammonia was finally falling. So I leapt into action and did the unthinkable - a 95% rapid water change. While the water was low, I scrubbed the inside glass until my windex and paper towels could not pick up a hint of green. I had my fingers crossed about the animal's survival of that process.

If I make it past this thread algae this time, I'm going to have to definately do something about the AS boarder with the sand. With all the rapid blasting of water going on yesterday, the only places that is not a mess now are the spots separated by driftwood. Everything else is a disaster that is going to require real work to clean up this weekend.

And today all is better.​
No recurrence of the dreaded thread. Only 1 Amano shrimp dead. And the tank looks really good. In fact, I think I had a minor GW bloom - not surprising considering the major water change. But it sorted itself out on its own, and looked fine by the end of the photoperiod. :thumbsup: But I've had it with the supplemental potassium. Lesson learned. I'll be watching any addition of ferts to the water column REAL carefully.

Wow. The fun never stops.


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## yznj99 (Nov 1, 2004)

Windex? Man, not sure what's inside but definitely not recommended for aquariums


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

I can't believe I just found your thread! I almost peed my pants when I learned you started a new tank. It's almost more exciting than the invention of the wheel. If I had been drinking a pop I would have shot coke out of my nose. Looks good!

By the way, what are the bubbles? Is it your CO2? I'm sure you said it somewhere in this thread but it would take half an hour to read all the comments.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

yznj99 said:


> Windex? Man, not sure what's inside but definitely not recommended for aquariums


Does it leave an evil residue? Most of it evaporates big time, leaving the glass pretty clean. I dunno. Maybe I screwed up. But the thread algae was not back today and the fauna all seem ok.


*Banderbe *- Your point about reading the thread is well taken Barry. But since this will be the third time dealing with this question, the moral of the story is that Steve Needs to Turn off th Bubbles before taking pictures! Ask me enough times and I'll figure it out...

The bubbles are just an airstone that bubbles in the tank at night. It seems that I only work on the tank at night, and then turn on the lights for pics. But I've neglected to turn off the aeration for the pictures. At night the lights go off, the CO2 kicks off, and the bubbles turn on. When I turn on the lights at night for pics I need to turn the aeration off to stop confusing people. Sorry.

_"If I had been drinking a pop I would have shot coke out of my nose." _

I hope I can quote you on that! That's one helluva backhanded compliment! :biggrin: Thanks!


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## natx (Jun 6, 2006)

The main ingredient in *normal* Windex is ammonia, which will kill basically anything. There is also a vinegar based Windex, you can tell the difference because its clear. However I believe it still contains an assortment of other chemicals.

Safest bet would be just straight cooking vinegar on a paper towel or some such.


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## Sietch31 (Feb 13, 2006)

Hi Scolley,

Just a few words about your new setup !

THIS IS GREAT !

If I am able to acheive half of that I would the happiest aquarist in the middle of that desert !!!!

And no, I will not go back to fishes suggestions dut I really think that nice wild Altums in there.......

Sietch


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

yznj99 said:


> Windex? Man, not sure what's inside but definitely not recommended for aquariums


I clean my aquarium with Windex all the time.

The secret, if it can be called that, is to spray down the paper towel in another room. Then wipe down the tank.

If you spray in or around the tank, then yeah probably all your fish will die. Otherwise it's pretty safe. I have never had a problem.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Not sure if Potassium causes that algae Steve. I have always heard K is fairly unrelated to algae issues. Could have been something else and the radical water change/windex wipe was the fix. But face it, you've been around before. You are going to get some algaes as its to be expected and totally normal in a healthy tank. Algae likes most the same things plants need. But I know you know all this. 

Are you sure it wasn't some varient of normal glass dust algae? I've had that before and it can get many inches long, though I haven't seen that one in a long time. Probably the coaster experience might leave you over cautious. Just my .02, my friend.


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## triple red (May 27, 2005)

banderbe said:


> I clean my aquarium with Windex all the time.
> 
> The secret, if it can be called that, is to spray down the paper towel in another room. Then wipe down the tank.
> 
> If you spray in or around the tank, then yeah probably all your fish will die. Otherwise it's pretty safe. I have never had a problem.


he said he cleaned the INSIDE glass with windex.......:hihi:


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

In reading the "ill-translated-mumbo-jumbo-legal-stuff" I found this page:
http://adana.co.jp/

Which very clearly lists the results.
I don't want to sully your thread with my results though...



scolley said:


> *BlueRam *- Whoa! You got me! I wasn't supposed to say anything? Is that what all that ill-translated mumbo-jumbo legal stuff was in that letter? I guess I messed up. Can't wait to see how everybody else did though! Hint hint.


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

BlueRam said:


> In reading the "ill-translated-mumbo-jumbo-legal-stuff" I found this page:
> http://adana.co.jp/


OK, If I could understand the language that site was written in I could probably respond.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

Page 1:
http://adana.co.jp/pdf/ranking06e_1.pdf
Page 2:
http://adana.co.jp/pdf/ranking06e_2.pdf

They were a quite tough on Biotopes which would explain why Scolley's placed so low. While my tank scored higher (first page), I would much rather have a tank like his (algae and all).



fshfanatic said:


> OK, If I could understand the language that site was written in I could probably respond.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Multi topic...*

*WINDEX*
The windex worked great. It was the blue ammonia stuff, and I didn't use a lot. Just enough to moisten a paper towel a bit. And it worked like a charm. Other than the 1 shrimp that died the next day, everything has been fine. And it's worth mentioning that I've lost a shrimp or two every day since I got them, until that last one and then no more shrimp death. I think everyone is fine, and the windex worked so well in that application that I doubt I'll hesitate to use it again in a similar fashion.



*POTASSIUM*
Yes, I DO know potassium is not implicated in algae problems. I also know the NOTHING had changed for since the addition of the shrimp and ottos, EXCEPT for the addition of potassium the day before the appearance of the thread algae. And it was the same old thread algae - I KNOW what that looks like now.

It hasn't reappeared since the massive water change and wipe down. So I added 2 ppm work K2SO4 today to test it again. If I have more thread algae tomorrow I'm be doing a repeat of my process earlier this week, windex and everything. 

And if it doesn't come back, all the better.



*ADA AQUASCAPE CONTEST 2005*
Thanks for the post BlueRam. Can congratulations on being on the top page! Not a lot of Americans there I see. Congratulations! Maybe next year I'll see you there. Maybe.:icon_wink 



*THE TANK*
Tank's looking OK. Lots of new growth, but I'm concerned about the periodic loss of a leaf or a flower stem. It's kind of random. Sometimes I'll lose a big older leaf, sometimes a new one, sometimes a flower stem. I suppose I lose about one a day, which is slower than new leaves are appearing thankfully.

They are always soft (as in mushy) at the base, with the rest of the leaf looking good. I know potassium deficiency makes stems weak. And I also know that I let my sole remaining dwarf crayfish loose in the tank when I first set it up. I hope it's not the crayfish. Camberellus shufeldtii are not supposed to harm plants. I suppose I'll see if the addition of Potassium helps.

The 95% water change caused a pretty radical change in water color for a couple of days. I guess the driftwood are still kicking up tannins, but it's definately much less than initially. But after seeing how nice the tank looked after the massive water change, I look forward to the tannin leaching finishing up.

I'm not taking pictures because this is primarily an Anubias tank. Changes that you can immediately see will only happen slowly. Maybe pictures in a few weeks.


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## pineapple (Jan 22, 2004)

Another nice thread, Mr. Scolley. I watch from afar and enjoy.

IME, thread algae relates to not enough NO3 or increased Fe. Leaf dropping I have (and am) experiencing in a high light (5.5 wpg), high growth aquarium with a Rotala. I have always dosed that aquarium highly with PO4 and always dosed as much K2SO4 as I do KNO3. In summer months especially, I find that plants use much less in the way of nutrients (while in spring they use a lot). I have dropped the PO4 dosing down a lot and strongly suspect overdosing - or more likely build up - of K2SO4 in the system relates to the leaf dropping. I am countering it fairly successfully by, as I say, lowering phosphate dosing and now decreasing K2SO4 dosing. It seems to be working. Keeping up with steady - but not too much - NO3 and, in my case, Tropica (used to be called) Master Grow seems to be the solution. Not sure if this will help in your aqua scene though! NYC is very soft, BTW.

Looking forward to reading more - I always learn from your threads and I am way behind on my tuition payments ;-)


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" - quote from The Wizard of Oz*

A while back there was a request for shots under the tank. My last aquascape thread has those, but a lot has changed.

So OK - I know it is an impossible task to describe what is going on under my tank, not within the time I'm willing to spend on the task, and not without charts, diagrams, a nice macro lens, and color coded explanations. I don't have any of that. But here are some shots and I'll try to take a minor stab at explaining every thing that goes on under the tank.

And before you have an knee-jerk reaction, and go "Oh my god!", I would respectfully that ask that you consider a few things:

1) These photo's have poor depth of field. So it all looks very flat. In person this becomes much more dimensional, and much more easily understood.

2) Upon careful inspection you will see there is a method behind the madness. There is a series of cable raceways at the very top that runs all the electrical wiring. Under that (in case of leakage) run all the liquids. And there is a "wet" side - the left side of the stand, and a "dry" side - the right, where all the electrical controls reside.

3) Under the tank, around the inside edges of the stand - out of view, are a number of rubber lips that channel any tank leakage away from the electrical side. I've overflowed the tank a few times (not paying attention to the python!) and it works.

4) I've never had a major failure that was not covered by a planned backup system. It just works.

5) Finally - Please don't bother to weight in with slogans like "KISS". Of course simple things are less likely to break. But that doesn't keep us from building battleships or nuclear subs - just because it's complicated, or does not hold to a "pure" theoretical design. Some solutions are complicated. And many complicated solutions work - like this one. It's not a sub - it's just an aquarium. So I will not debate the risks of complexity here. If feel stronlgy about the virtues if simplicity, you are welcome to that philosophy. But please take it to another thread. And please feel free to link to this as a good example of bad overly complex design if you thing that's appropriate.​

For my part, I know this works as designed. So I assume all responsibility for the risks that complexity brings, and happily revel in the labor saving benefits that it brings me each day.

So, on with the show...

BTW - All these pics are clickable for a bigger image.


This is the left door. No big deal. Just a convenient, but necessary, place to store tools because the drawers in the stand had to be ripped out to accommodate the 5 different through the tank bottom attachments. That meant no drawers in the stand, and doors became valuable storage space.



This is the right door. A bit more interesting because it has three X10 switches. From these wireless switches I can turn on/off any of the following: the 2 bulb bank of the Tek light, the 4 bulb bank of the Tek light, the UV, the CO2 solenoid, the aeration air pump, the tank drain components (1 switch powering multiple components), or the tank fill components (again, 1 switch powering multiple components). And finally, the last button will begin an automated cycle of draining 50% of the tank and then filling it back up.

I find I have to be real careful about the button I push :icon_eek: . That's why they are all nicely labeled.




This is just a shot of the stand with the doors open. Furniture in front of the tank prevents a more straight on shot. Sorry. But from here you can roughly see the left "wet" side, and the right "dry" side.





Here, on the left "wet" side, there are a number of things visible. First on the far left, the two peristaltic pumps that supply micro's and macro ferts in-line. They draw their ferts from the two large white hanging rectangular jugs in front. They are currently empty. My tank is not being auto-dosed at the moment.

To the right is the Eheim Pro II. I have to confess that the filtration plumbing - the thing many of you want to see most - will not be discernible at all in this series of pics. So let me at least briefly explain here:

The water comes out of the tank through filtered bulkhead drilled in the bottom left side (this side) of the tank. Those connections are not visible in this pic. But you can see two flexible PVC tubes pointing upward. Out of view those tubes connect to big ball valves and have water rushing down through them. At the other end of both those tubes, hidden from view on the left of this photo, is a contraption that I've documented in other threads. It takes the inflow of water and runs it past several in-line contraptions: a pH meter, a temp probe, and an electrical ground, and consolidates the two flows into a single green Eheim tube (visible) that flows into the Pro II.

The outflow from the Pro II does a U-turn (yes, bad I know, but a deliberate design compromise) to a number of components that are not easily visible in this left hand view, or even the right hand view of the stand. The components are in the dead center of the stand and are hard to see. But in a nutshell, the Pro II flows to a DIY CO2 diffuser to a "Y". One side of the "Y" goes to a Hydor in-line heater, and back out the stand and into the tank through one of IUknown's lily pipes. The other side of the "y" has it's flow rate controlled by a ball valve. It lets a precisely measured 55 gph through to a UV, and then back through the stand and back to the tank in a separate lily pipe. That UV is not on all the time - but that's a different post.

Behind the Pro II you can see a couple of RO type canisters. They both hold carbon matrix filers that filer the chlorine out of the water that goes into the tank from the house tap water. And off to the top right you can see two small black cubes. Those are solenoids that control the flow of water into, and out of the tank. One solenoid is a drain. It is connected to a "T" in the secondary return line of water back to the tank. If the solenoid is turned on, water flows out of the return line (instead of going back into the tank) through the solenoid, and to an Eheim hobby pump that powers it through quite a long run of tubing, back to our home's water drainage. 

The other solenoid is for filling. If it is turned on, it will allow pressurized water from our home's water system to flow through the two carbon matrix filters (they are in series for extra filtration) and to a "T" in the primary return line, where it flows into the tank.





I'll have to break the right side explanation into two shots. This is the first. Primarily in this view, the "dry" side, is the CO2 rig obscuring things on the back stand wall, and a lot of electronics on the right wall. On the obscured back wall is a gray dual-stage temperature controller directly behind the CO2 rig (barely visible), a green SMS 122 to the right of that, and my gray DIY automated tank level controller. It looks like a box with two electrical plugs. The top is the "pump up" plug. And the bottom is a "pump down" plug that has a yellow 3-light circuit testing device plugged in it while I debug the system (actually it works!!!). And the jumble on the right is just that - a jumble. There are two banks of plugs that have a ton of things plugged in. Everything is labeled, but it is still a mess. The jumble of wires sits in a white box with drainage holes in the bottom - just in case.

On some of the wires you can see white X10 controller boxes that shut the flow of electricity on/off for that device. I pretty much use X10 controls instead of standard timers. The white switches on the stand door (discussed earlier) can turn on/off some (but not all) of these devices. All of them are ultimately controlled by a small controller box connected to both my PC and my electrical system. The box shuts off, or turns on, everything at programmed intervals. Those intervals are set by a PC program called Active Home Pro. Here are just a few screen shots of Active Home Pro that control EVERYTHING going on in my tank.









Also I would like to point out... if you look to the upper right, you will see a large bundle of wires descending from the top of the stand. These are the electrical wires running along the raceway that I mentioned earlier. All electrical wiring is elevated above the water lines - again, just in case.





This is the 2nd right hand shot. It doesn't offer a lot more to offer except for a few subtle things. First, in the back to the left of the CO2 tank you can see a blue air pump bolted to the bottom of the stand. That blows air up through a tube (see the black check valve in the vertical tubing to the left of the CO2 rig?) up through a bulkhead into an air-stone in the tank. It only does this at night (controlled by Active Home Pro), and is the reason everyone keeps asking me about bubbles in my pictures!

Also you can just barely see in the top right a vertical airline tube connected to a black slip fitting (it's to the back left of the bundle of vertical electronic wires). That is a water tube, carrying water through a bulkhead, that fits into a pressure sensor mounted inside the DIY gray fill sensor (next to the green SMS 122). In fact, in this shot, you can see a blue thin screwdriver sticking out of the gray DIY sensor and plug housing box. That's because I'm using the screw driver to turn a screw on the pressure sensor to fine tune the proper level of the tank. When the the pressure through that tubing is high enough, the sensor turns off the power to the top socket (a gray plug is in it) which should shut off the power to the solenoid that is open and letting water flow into the tank. Easy as pie right? Got enough water? Great! Shut off the power to the thing that fills the tank. Too easy.

In this shot is also evident a simple, but wickedly important little feature. At the top left you can see a bright circular halogen light. There are several of these scattered around the interior of the stand. The doors have switches. So, open a door - on come the halogens! Makes things SOOO much easier I would recommend it to everyone.





This pic doesn't show much more. It just exposes a few things that were previously unseen. You can see the Hydor heater, and the Eheim hobby pump. Probably most important is shows the PVC DIY diffuser (on the left) which is no big deal really. Except that it has the important role of not only being the point at which that CO2 enters the return flow of water. It is also the point at which the flow from the peristaltic micro and macro pumps get their ferts into the water. You can see this (with black check valves in-line) going into the CO2 Diffuser. While it is not very discernible in this pic, at the spots where the CO2, micros, and macros enter the diffuser, I've got plastic micro airline valves permanently installed. It is a great little help to maintenance. If you need to work on something, just turn off the valve, and unplug the tubing. Simple.



*In conclusion:*

I know this looks like a god-awful jumble. I wish you could see it in person. From that perspective it reveals its true nature - a tight, but well planned, understandable and reliable machine. It just works. 

There was a massive time investment in getting everything set up right - lots of trial and effort - too much money and time wasted on things that didn't work. But now this works great - no kidding - and will be a model for every tank I set up from this point forward. The time savings it provides are truly unbelievable.

And that's not to mention the the most important design consideration of all - getting as much equiptment as possible out of the tank.


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## yznj99 (Nov 1, 2004)

OMG, that's very very impressive, I am speechless...


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## Lorenceo (Jan 29, 2004)

Wow. Impressive system you have there.
If the waterchange controller is a success, you should consider marketing it. I'm sure people would be interested in automatic waterchanges.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Lorenceo said:


> Wow. Impressive system you have there.
> If the waterchange controller is a success, you should consider marketing it. I'm sure people would be interested in automatic waterchanges.


Actually I've got another thread that deals with that function specifically. And I have to admit, I'm stalling on posting the detail that I've said I would for two reasons:

1) I've learned that the currently marketed "cheap" solutions to do this do not work as promised, and I understand why. I've spent too much money learning the hard way.

2) I've spend a wicked amount of time figuring out how to make this work reliably, and have.​
So I am indeed thinking about selling this "auto-fill" solution. If I do, it will not be cheap. But consider for a moment, will any system that requires water filtration, and connections to both your household water and drainage systems be cheap? No. Of course not.

But for those people that can/will make the investment, it will be a god-send. I cannot EVEN BEGIN TO TELL YOU how awesome it is to be doing 50% water changes every other day on a new tank (to keep the concentrations of evil stuff down), and not even have to LOOK at my tank.

It's too cool, and I'm thinking very hard about marketing the solution before I post it for everyone to copy. Yes - my altruism does have its limits. This is something worth selling.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Amazing Steve. Did you plumb through the floor into your houses water in a crawl space? Cool you came up with the water level controler outside of the tank. Dude, its a nuclear sub under there. So cool you have programed your computer to run the show and figured out ways to use the solenoids to auto fill etc. Don't show this to Bill Gates. It does seem logical when you think about it, but getting from a concept to reality. Wow. I'm dazzled. I think a lot of folks are going to be spending some time reading post 125 over and over!!:thumbsup: WOW infinitum...LOL


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks Bob. The biggest problem was just space. There is just not a whole lot of space under a 48"x18" tank. At least not when you are trying to get the kitchen sink in there. And having EVERYTHING in the stand was a design criteria. I just would not give up on a particular thing until I knew how to incorporate it into the stand, invisible from view.

The plumbing isn't really finished. I have a good friend that is supposed to be visiting sometime soon, and he'll be running copper tubing under the crawlspace of the room the tank is in. Until that time I've got two lengths of RO tubing running around the room where the wall meets the floor. I installed some hollow hardwood molding along that edge to protect the tubing and shield it from view.

It terminates in the wet bar in the same room as the tank. I'm luck that there was already a drain and a water line there - both very easy to tap into.

The solenoids are NC, or normally-closed. So if any power loss shenanigans happen, they will snap closed and filling or draining stops. And the biggest risk is obviously over filling. So the pressure sensing fill controller is really only a redundant backup device to ENSURE the tank does not overfill.

I'm using a little water speed reducing gadgets that RO systems employ. It cuts the water speed way down, to a set, predictable, no-to-be-exceeded rate of flow. The drain removes water in a similar predictable speed pattern. So the Active Home Pro turns on a macro (at programmed intervals) to drain the tank for a set period of time (buy turning on the drain solenoid and Eheim hobby pump), and then turns on the DIY Fill Sensor (which has the fill solenoid plugged into it) for a set period of time. This fill time is always a minute or two longer than it needs to be, to accommodate for possible evaporation, and in that last minute or two the DIY Fill sensor shuts off the solenoid. And shortly after that, that the Active Home Pro controller shuts off power to the DIY Fill sensor. So one way or another, the fill solenoid loses power before an overfill occurs. It would take the failure of both the DIY Fill sensor and the Active Home Pro controller to overflow the tank on any given single filling.

In the scenario I described above, failure of the DIY fill sensor would eventually overflow the tank, the level creeping up a few millimeters each time a drain/fill cycle happens. But it would take quite a few cycles to do that, and should be caught before it actually overflow - _"Dad! Is the water on the tank supposed to be up to the very top edge like this?"_

And even then, if that happened, it's only going to overflow a quart or two of water. Overall, the risk is actually pretty low.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

*Oh, this is too cool*. I was wondering if a timed equal flow would allow a drain and fill sequence to work without one of those top of the tank floats... and here, you have done just that it seems, or something like that. 

So, since my "fish room" is in a room I built in my garage next to our utility room - well, you can guess since it has proximity to plumbing. My next tank is going to have some bulkheads built in the bottom to facilitate this type of setup. Just this week we had to put in a acid nuetralizer setup in our well house and now my water is close to nuetral pH so I can eliminate the water prep tank and could do something like this (except I might have to add mg and ca for GH). Sorry I'm going off topic. Anyhow...

I just showed your undertank setup to my wife and got another big WOW too, LOL. I'll just have to save up a bunch of bread and decide whether the next tank is a 120 or a 180 gallon, LOL. Steve, you da MAN!


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## uncskainch (Feb 22, 2005)

Wow.  I'm totally in awe of your under-the-tank setup. I'm learning so much from all of your threads. When we move and I have a bigger tank, I'll be coming back to this thread for some set-up inspiration.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

Nice work as always. You might want to think about a set of hose clamps etc as that hobby pump looks ripe for a leak...


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

WOW!! I am in total awe here. That is probably the most impressive setup I have ever seen in someones home.. 

Great Job. I wish I had the time to do something similar with mine.. 

** Bows head in shame and sneaks out the back door **


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

heh ive seen the pics before somewhere..... because i remember you giving (i stole...) the idea to lable the cords..... 

but what im REALLY impressed with is the wireless switches.. and being able to controll it on your comp.:icon_roll thats just tooo cool..........

keep up the good work!

- fish newb -


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

If this ain't a FIVE STAR thread, then what is? hint hint...


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks folks. I tell you, I look at these pictures and it looks like a mess. But in person it isn't quite as bad. Now the basket on the right that holds all the excess wire IS a mess. But everything else is a bit like a car under the hood. If you've never looked at one and aren't familiar with what's in there it can seem bewildering. But once you know what all the stuff is, that jumble of wire, belts, and metal can begin to look logical and even make sense. Same here - just a lot of stuff in a small space.

BlueRam, you are insightful as always. That darn hobby pump is indeed the weak link. Now from you comment, you could be referring to the way I cobbled the connections between it's native Eheim 16/22 tubing (I think) and the RO tubing. I could not find anything to adapt it, and was amazed at how well the "small tube slipped into a larger tube" adapters worked. But it is a weak spot.

And I'm assuming that's what you are referring to, unless of course you are referring to the hobby pump itself. I've already found out the hard way (or rather the wet way) that those things aren't particularly good at holding water. They seem to be much better suited in submerged applications. This thing sprung a leak and I damn near lost the whole tank. I mean this was the one big leak I had in setting this up - a defective (leaking) Eheim pump! So I replaced the defective part in the hobby pump. But I'd be a whole lot happier if someone could recommend a nice, reasonably inexpensive, in-line pump that does not leak. This is indeed the one place that I have any reservations about.


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

JenThePlantGeek said:


> Haha, I cut out a picture of the A. coffefolia from a picture that fresh_newby posted of her tank. It is a start that I sent her. In real life it wouldn't be quite so dark, alas my photoshop skillz are lacking! It might make a nice eyecatcher though
> 
> OOOOoooh and I think I know what fish you'll have... *excited happy dance*!!!


Jen...impressive!


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

ok so I will rate it 5 stars for chrissake...lol
Great job, Steve. Honestly, this is my ultimate goal.....auto water changes and auto dosing.....I set up a program similar to yours and though still in infancy, yours tells me it is all possible. great work! I can't wait to watch the progression of this amazing project!


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

You got it right. The "small tube slipped into a larger tube" adapter is what caught my eye (fix with hose clamp) but there are a number of unsecured fittings about (use a plastic clamp for the plastic airline barbs, I don't want you to break those). Basically the design looks great so you should "harden" the plumbing because leaks like to wait for the worst moment. 

Full disclosure: I was given a 404 filter in fish club. The hoses leaked so I replaced the tubing. I was careful in that I set it up in the evening and confirmed that it worked so I shut it off and went to bed (being safe right?) Well the seal leaked (you have to wiggle it closed) so I woke up to a puddle. Luckly the tank was only partially full and fish free. The good news is that the wife flooded the laundry room about a week later. This is why we bought a hose with a concrete slab and cheap carpet as spills happen. 

So now I look for places where the system can leak. You might consider a screamer (noise when wet) and a macro that detects an unplanned drop in water level to alert and *definitely* shut off the top off side.



scolley said:


> BlueRam, you are insightful as always. That darn hobby pump is indeed the weak link. Now from you comment, you could be referring to the way I cobbled the connections between it's native Eheim 16/22 tubing (I think) and the RO tubing. I could not find anything to adapt it, and was amazed at how well the "small tube slipped into a larger tube" adapters worked. But it is a weak spot.
> 
> And I'm assuming that's what you are referring to, unless of course you are referring to the hobby pump itself. I've already found out the hard way (or rather the wet way) that those things aren't particularly good at holding water. They seem to be much better suited in submerged applications. This thing sprung a leak and I damn near lost the whole tank. I mean this was the one big leak I had in setting this up - a defective (leaking) Eheim pump! So I replaced the defective part in the hobby pump. But I'd be a whole lot happier if someone could recommend a nice, reasonably inexpensive, in-line pump that does not leak. This is indeed the one place that I have any reservations about.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

BlueRam said:


> You might consider a screamer (noise when wet) and a macro that detects an unplanned drop in water level to alert and *definitely* shut off the top off side.


Thanks for the tips. Will definately follow through on the clamps.

As for the screamer - I've got one. IMO it's worthless. They are cool if you happen to have a place that the water is always going to pool, so you can place the sensor there. But on a level floor water can go in a number of directions - just depends where it originates.

I've sloshed water over the side of the tank because I've got my arm in it, and have the screamer about lose its mind. And then when the Eheim hobby pump blew a gasket in the middle of the night, and spewed water everywhere, the Screamer was silent as a clam.

But I've got an ME buddy that tells me there is some sort of large, mat-like sensor that you can substitute that would work a lot better. If I find out about that I'll let everyone know.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

The flat water sensor looks like this:
http://www.safehomeproducts.com/shp2/sm/stop_water_leak.asp?hash=sm-am-fssensor#sm-am-fssensor

I am not quite sure how to hook it into the X 10 system though...


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## yznj99 (Nov 1, 2004)

Now this tank screams for discus, with easy 50% water changes, I say put 10 pigs in there


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## Curare (Sep 15, 2004)

reeeet reeeet reeet!


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

LMAO..I look at the pics of your tank and remeber you typing to me
_Too much tech. I want something simple_

I sit back and laugh!

Nice tank by all means. NIce work! Great job! I will definitely enjoy reading through your posts if I ever want to go this far.

I dont mean to be negative with my first comment


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## tundragirl (Feb 15, 2006)

I think I just crawled out of a cave. LOL :icon_redf Where have I been?
Just found the thread today- I have been waiting for your start over. Looks great!!

The technical side of your tank is just mind blowing to a newbe like me. Wouldn't know what to do with half of it-much less hook it up.


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## Blackeyes (Jul 6, 2006)

I've been looking through this whole thread, and im am in awe. This tank is by far the best looking tank that i have ever seen, all the anubias look amazing. I love the overall look that your going for. I have a few suggestions fish wise. Have you thought about dwarf cichlids at all? I think a few pairs of Apistogramma agassizi along with some schools of Dwarf Neon Rainbows or tetras, and some type of bottom dwellers ex: amano or cherry shrimp. I think it would look very nice with the addition of those fish. Again AMAZING JOB SCOLLEY



-Matt


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## the_noobinator (Jun 10, 2006)

that is the most ridiculous setup. with 2 laptops, one of which is constantly with me wherever i go, the auto-WC and auto-dosing would probably be pointless for me.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Lot's of different opinions around here...*

*THOUGHTS ABOUT POSTING*
When I first started posting here, I was shocked when people said directly negative things - as in not constructive criticism, just negative without a spirit of being helpful. I was even further shocked when I saw people deliberately pulling a rating down - hearing/seeing something they didn't like and slamming the thread rating. It kind of makes it ironic really - being behind some of the most popular threads here, yet still struggling to get a five star rating like some of the threads out there that less than 20 people have seen.

But I've come to understand that my paying attention to that stuff is stupid. The reality is that the vast majority of people out there are wonderfully constructive, and supportive. And for that I thank you! Thanks a million! Makes this hobby SO much more fun! These posts are for YOU, so we can learn together.

As for the negative stuff, that too can have merit. So let me start with a few replies...


*REPLIES*
*the_noobinator* - It works for me. Sorry it doesn't fit your sensibilities.

But for the record, the PC does not control the X10 modules. There is a piece of PC software that sets the parameters of the X10 controllers that gets downloaded (through a USB cable) to a small controller box that controls the X10 modules. That controller is plugged into the house electrical system, and takes its power from it. In case of power outages it has batteries. So even with a power outage, things get set to the proper state. And it does need to be connected to the PC EXCEPT to download changes in operational parameters - such as moving from an 8 hour photo period to an 8.5 hour photo period.

*Blackeyes *- Matt, all I can say is THANK YOU.

*tundragirl *- Thanks. But don't spend too much time on the technical. That's just for fun. It's the stuff in the tank that I'm doing this for, and I suspect you too!

*Brilliant *- What the heck could I have been thinking when I told you that? :hihi: I'm such a geek, I can't keep my hands away from wires and tubes and such! Maybe I was referring to high-light, high-fert, and high growth? That I have remained very much true too. I'd had it with life on the edge with that last tank, and definately went for something that has change happening on a nice, slow, lazy pace. I definately need a break from high-light tanks.

*Curare *- What the heck is a "reeeet"?

*yznj99 *- I AM still thinking about it...

*BlueRam *- The Screamer is not hooked to the X10, but I am interested in something like the flat senor you linked to. I'd replace the sensor in the screamer with it.

I'm not worried about hooking it the the X10 - that implies that I'm trying to shut down something in the auto-fill process. But I could not be less worried about that. Believe me - that works.

If something is leaking - it's not because that system is over filling - it's because something is leaking. And we all are subject to that risk, though with the number of joints in my in-line systems, I'm sure I'm more at risk than most.


*TANK UPDATE*
Well, I've restarted the periodic potassium ferts. It is now clear to me that it did not spur the thread algae I saw.

I've also started very limited doses of Green Brighty Step 1 - the ADA micro solution that has very low iron. And BTW, I'm philosophically VERY MUCH in line with that. I'm all for micros, but IMO too much iron is the root of MUCH evil in planted tanks. I'll add iron when I start seeing deficiencies.

I also added another 20+ Amanos, and another 10 otto cats. That brings the current total to about 40+ Amanos and about 15 Otocinclus.

I've reduced the water changes to 50% every 3.5 days. I'd be willing to bring it down to 50% a week, except I'm going on a 2 week vacation in a few days and I know no one will be removing any dead or dying matter in the tank. This kind of helps with that little lack of important-early-tank-maintenance.

I'm still waiting for the driftwood to stop leaching tannins. It's not bad, just frustrating. 

And the tank itself appears to be thriving - all except for the marsilea, which IMO just needs more light. But it is going to have to wait until after vacation for that.

The anubias have stopped shedding leaves. They are busy sprouting new ones instead.:thumbsup: 

In two days is the four week mark. I'll try to post pics.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

Discus as "pigs" in yznj99's post...



scolley said:


> *Curare *- What the heck is a "reeeet"?
> 
> *BlueRam *- The Screamer is not hooked to the X10, but I am interested in something like the flat senor you linked to. I'd replace the sensor in the screamer with it.
> 
> ...


The risk of a "dumb" auto topoff sensor is that if water is hitting the floor, the sensor detects "low" and dumps in more water, which hits the floor etc. Generally not favorable so most reefers use some think like a bucket or a low flow DI to reduce possible volume spill. It sounds like you have it based on timing though...


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

BlueRam said:


> The risk of a "dumb" auto topoff sensor is that if water is hitting the floor, the sensor detects "low" and dumps in more water, which hits the floor etc. Generally not favorable so most reefers use some think like a bucket or a low flow DI to reduce possible volume spill. It sounds like you have it based on timing though...


Actually it is based on both precise timing, and detection of a full condition. Either one stops the fill process. So two independent systems both have to fail to have an overflow occur. And the great thing is, both work very well - hence my confidence and comfort.


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## bigstick120 (May 23, 2005)

Sounds like you have everything in check Steve. Dont get to caught up in the stars and that crap people are jealous of what they cant and dont have. And what they dont understand or apperciate. Your tank and setup is top notch!


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## Curare (Sep 15, 2004)

I agree with Big stick,

Mate, if you're having fun with the gear you're installing, then who's to tell you not to do it? 

The aim of this hobby is fun, and for the tech heads amoungst us, that is part of the attraction, some people keep fish, others plants, and some just like building controlled microcosms! Even if most people don't understand or like what you're doing, you're paving the way in some of this technology and no doubt in years to come they'll be able to gleen something from your efforts.


Oh, and Reeet, is the sound of piggies


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks guys. The reality is that this is a 50/50 hobby for me, as I gather it is for many of us. One side is the aesthetics of having a lovely planted tank, and/or the satisfaction one gets from growing things successfully. And the other is the tech gadgetry.

I've had a good time trying to put everything possible in-line - *done*. Automating fertilization routines - *done*. And finally, auto top-off/refill - *done*! I started looking at the hobby over 2 years ago and went "Hey, this could be improved IMO..." So I've taken these three milestones as personal hobby challenges, with reasonable outcomes I think.

But my technical solutions are far from perfect. And I'm WIDE OPEN to constructive discussions on improving them. We all benefit from that.:icon_wink 

But I'll step away from the technical, and get back to this being a photo album. I believe I said I would do that...

So no more posts from me until I have some nice pics for you. But remember, this is a principally an anubias tank. Changes are slow.


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## Curare (Sep 15, 2004)

Is there any secret to getting anubias to grow faster?


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

Let's take turns sneeking ever larger anubia each night.:thumbsup: 



Curare said:


> Is there any secret to getting anubias to grow faster?


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## JED (Nov 10, 2005)

Awesome Steve, things are really coming together. I love what you did with the PLC and controllers - very cool. Don't worry about the negativity, its folks like you who really advance the hobby :thumbsup:


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## saint27 (Apr 27, 2006)

I fell just like you do with that 50/50 comment. I love having a planted tank and growing things just makes a person feel good. But I am an engineer on the other hand and love all the tech stuff. Ever since I have gotten into this hobby I have been dreaming of setting up an automated system like yours. I can't wait to get out of my apartment and into a house so I can start fiddling around.

PS. Those pictures of everything under the tank are true something an engineer can love. I have looked them over a few times and can't really think of a better way or another at all that you could have accomplished that.


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## Zulu (Aug 18, 2005)

scolley said:


> One side is the aesthetics of having a lovely planted tank, and/or the satisfaction one gets from growing things successfully. And the other is the tech gadgetry.



For me it's more of an excersize in growing brown algae.... :-\


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## Badcopnofishtank (Jan 20, 2004)

Planning: 10/10
Execution: 10/10
:icon_eek: factor: 11/10

I have heard of auto-top off systems in larger sumps (usually an evaporative cooler valve on a float), but your auto fert system / and auto top off has peeked my interest.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*One Month!!! Yahooo!!!*

*PROGRESS REPORT*
Well, it's been a month as of today, since I laid the substrate and planted the tank.

In a nutshell, I'd say it has worked out as well as I could have asked for. My anubias have stopped dropping leaves. The thread algae is being successfully kept invisible (adding 10 more ottos definately helped that), and there is very, very little algae to be seen - just a smidgen of green hiding in the edges of my silicone. But none on the glass. None on the plants.

I've still got tannins leaching from the driftwood. But it is definately improving. I suspect that by the time I hit the two month mark it will be very hard to tell, and at three months it will be past history.

I'm still working to keep the sand and AS separated - an ongoing challenge that I will eventually win.

The ottos and inverts are all apparently healthy. I'm amazed that I got this last batch of 10 ottos and 25 amamos from Dr's F&S three days ago, and have not lost a single one. Not only does that speak well for that vendor, but it's also a pretty good indicator for the tank IMO.

My ammonia never spiked, and nitrites never became measurable. But my ammonia did suddenly plummeted to zero a couple weeks ago and has remained there. So I suppose any cycle questions are pretty much history.

And I'm adding about 2 ml daily of ADA Green Brighty Step 1, and about 1 ppm K daily of K2SO4 with my autodosers. And I've hit the tank pretty hard 5-6 times this month with ADA Python-Git.


*PICS*!
So here are a few pics of the tank at 4 weeks in.

There are a number of reflections in the shots. And lots of light from around the room. Sorry. I took them in the evening when the summer sun was very much still up. Better than nothing I suppose.

There isn't any real order here, just various angles and distances.

Please note! - If you click these pics you will get a HUGE pic - maybe more that 1 meg in size! But if you have a browser like Firefox, or something that lets you zoom into pictures, it's really cool because you can see the detail.




























*NOW THAT YOU'VE SEEN THE PICTURES*
First, you should know that the new leaves on the anubias DO NOT look yellow, though they do in some of these pics. My color correcting software is somehow pulling out the color of the tannins in the water and messing up the new leaves at the same time. They are light green.

Now that said, they are lighter green than I would like. And I would start adding ECA (the ADA iron product), but I'm going on two weeks vacation in a few days, and I'm not about to start adding the first iron in the tank now. It will have to wait.

And if you look real hard at some of the pictures of the right hand side of the tank, on driftwood toward the bottom, you can see the petite nana. What a pita that plant is to tie to driftwood! It is TINY! Someday when I build a nano this will get transferred, but for now it's fun to watch grow. It is BTW, putting out new leaves.

Also on the right, but on the upper right of the glass, if you look real hard you can see a piece of tape I put on the outside of the glass. That tape is where the water level was when I set the automatic refill sensor three weeks ago. Please keep in mind that most of that time the tank has gone through six or seven automated 3.5 gallon drain/fill cycles each day - doing a 50% water change every two days - NO manual intervantion in three weeks. So under a normal schedule of weekly 50% water changes, that amount of water level drift that you see would take something like 9 or 10 weeks time. Not too bad IMO.



*RESPONSES*
I'm gonna keep this short and just say thanks for the kind words of encouragement! Really. But I do want to say especially - Badcopnofishtank - thanks for the chuckle! Well placed humor will always be welcome (if not coveted) in any thread of mine!

And Jed - thanks - I am actually working hard at advancing the hobby. It's not just under my tank though. If you read my threads I've said a lot of things that make it clear that I do not blindly accept conventional wisdom either. Lots of mythology running wild in this hobby IMO. It applies to what we can and cannot accomplish with technology, but it also applies just as strongly about what is, and is not, good for plants - and why.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

cool. looks awesome steve. cant wait to see fishes in it


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## Oqsy (Jul 3, 2004)

Steve! Somehow I missed the start of the new kahuna! is there some explanation as to the end of the previous kahuna? is this an all new tank or just a cleaned out and restarted incarnation of the last tank? beautiful so far! I am actually in the midst of a total tank overhaul at the moment, and will be watching your progress very closely to pick up as much useful info as possible. Great start! I dig the substrate , wood, plants, and japonicas! just all around beautiful, man... i'm subscribing to this thread this minute!

Oqsy/Chris


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## organic sideburns (Dec 22, 2005)

Wow man looks really great and natural. I love the wood and moss! I really like all the crevices in the 'wooded jungle'. The fish you put in there will love it!:thumbsup:


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

If you wanted to make me envious, you've accomplished your task well. 

I haven't been around in a while, Steve. Glad to see you are back in action. Your old tank taking a crap on you was the best thing that ever happened to this tank. That wood arrangement is just nuts. I'm sure you didn't spend anytime scrutinizing it .

*subscribed*!!!!!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks Geoff, Chris and O-Sideburns!

And Ted, welcome back! I covet your envy and will do everything I can to make it worse.:icon_wink Thanks.

The driftwood is really the heart of the tank. Even if it gets completely obscured, it provides the structure. It may not look like it, but I figure there is a good 20+ linear feet of driftwood in that tank.

I emailed Jeff Senske some pics of a few different type of aquascapes I'd like to try, and his help was outstanding. On one type of aquascape he had me go back and look the the enormous quantity of driftwood it required. So not wanting to take out a 2nd mortgage for driftwood, I took his advice and scaled back my expectations a bit.

Then we had the great dialog - "_Do you want to set a $ cap on the wood, and just live with it if you find you don't quite have a wide enough assortment of wood to do what you want to do? Or do you want to get too much, knowing that you'll have enough to get most any design (like the pics) done, but will likely have some left over?_" Good questions actually. So I grimaced to myself and said "_I'd rather have leftover wood than not be able to do what I want to do._"

So I've probably go 7-8 linear feet of really nice driftwood left over. But I'm SOO glad I got "too much", because I spent hours, and hours, and hours swapping pieces out, rearranging, taking pics and thinking, and tearing it all down and trying something different. Having enough raw material really made a big difference in the options I had.

And my hat's off to Jeff. He sent a truly wonderful assortment of wood - very much the type of wood (size, shape, texture, color) of what I wanted to do. When I opened the box of driftwood I was like a kid on Christmas morning! It was great stuff! In fact it was so good, I had to send him an email complaining because of all the pressure he put on me! The driftwood was so nice, that if I couldn't make something decent out of it, it would be a clear proof that I have no aquascaping skills at all!

So your intuition was correct Ted. I did not just slap it together. I'm not good enough for that. It was an investment (reusable!), and is the core of the aquascape.


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## Brunog (May 1, 2006)

Tank looks amazing...

I've never seen such a well done automated system... :icon_eek: 


One thing tho... about the annubias, i find they'll yellow and lose some leaves when i transfer them... they've always done that to me... takes about 2-4 weeks to go back to normal and to start making new leaves... 

Great tank! brilliant...

Oh... i have one question... was the ADA substrate really worth the money??

Thanks!


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## bavarian3 (Feb 22, 2005)

Brunog said:


> Oh... i have one question... was the ADA substrate really worth the money??
> 
> Thanks!


aquasoil is absolutely worth the money.....not that its particularly any more expensive than other brand name substrates..


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## Y0uH0 (Dec 19, 2005)

bavarian3 said:


> aquasoil is absolutely worth the money.....not that its particularly any more expensive than other brand name substrates..


i'll second that. Never had such beautiful growth with other substrate types before. Furthermore,it really isn't expensive if you were to make a comparison. Definately well worth the money spent!:thumbsup:


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

Jaw drops! What you hide under that cabinet! 
That's a real piece of work man figuring out what you wanted and really going for it.
Outstanding! Something I'm going to aim for in my next project since I've totally scratched one tank. [front AND back!]

As for the discus, go for the wild varieties. The are a more 'normal' size. You just need to train them to eat dry food.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

the tank looks like its coming along nicely! 6 stars.... well if only! 

anubis usually are a little melty but after that come back strong... for me the leaves are usually very light for a while then darken up. 

now im wondering what happened to the bubbles!!!! :hihi:


keep up the gooood work!

- fish newb -


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## Bert H (Dec 15, 2003)

Steve, tank looks great, and the 'inner workings' are amazing! I tip my hat to you. :thumbsup: 



> And if you look real hard at some of the pictures of the right hand side of the tank, on driftwood toward the bottom, you can see the petite nana. What a pita that plant is to tie to driftwood! It is TINY! Someday when I build a nano this will get transferred, but for now it's fun to watch grow. It is BTW, putting out new leaves.


 The petites are one of my favorite plants. They will surely, though slowly, grow for you. I probably have enough in my 3 tanks to do an entire 75 gal tank in it.  Instead of tieing them to wood, I find a crack on the branch and 'slide' some roots into the crack. Over time, it anchors and you get a bushy plant growing on the wood and spreading.


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

Steve...any critters in there yet?


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## the_noobinator (Jun 10, 2006)

i see some amanos i think? anything else?


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

the_noobinator said:


> i see some amanos i think? anything else?


he posted earlier... amano shrimp and 15 ottos at the moment... he is waiting to make sure tank is stable before he adds other stuff.... but i do think i saw some snails in there.....:icon_roll 

- fish newb -


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## uncskainch (Feb 22, 2005)

Looking great, Steve. I love all the anubias. As always, you're an inspiration. And that extra driftwood is an excuse to start some more tanks perhaps? 

I just got new driftwood for my 29g and moved the small piece that was in there looking undersized to a 5g where it is a great centerpiece -- driftwood is so much fun to work with. It really is the bones that let you flesh out the rest of the tank.


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## jasonh (Oct 26, 2003)

steve,

I'd hardly say I'm a regular on here, so I don't even really know what happened to your last layout, and just now found this thread today. I did read the old thread occasionally, so I at least knew what it looked like and whatnot 

Anyway, I have to say you've stolen my dream idea. Completely X10 controlled tank with auto waterchange...It's amazing. Well done.

I must say I really like this layout. The old one had potential, but I think this one tops it. I love seeing tanks that keep species variety sweet and simple. I think you threw out the KISS strategy when it comes to the tech behind the tank, but for the layout you've nailed it. I love it.

As for the fish, I'm going to have to go against everyone on here and say don't go Discus. I don't have any experience with them, nor will I ever (the wife and I aren't too fond of them...and too much work), but I think a smaller sized fish would do the tank good. You have a layout that makes the tank look vast, I wouldn't ruin it with floating "dinnerplates" as someone put it. This is just my $0.02 though. Just looking at the link in my sig to my 29, you can tell I'm far from being as experienced as you or a lot of others on here...

Now for your issue with keeping the sand and AS separate. Why not use long strips of a thin and bendable plastic put in the substrate to keep the two separate? Something like overhead transparency material or something. You could make it maybe 1/4" below the surface of the substrate to make sure you never see it, and it would keep most of the sand and AS from mixing, and fend off stray runners that find their way into the sand. Just a thought.

Sorry for the long-winded post. Keep up the good work.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Back from 2 weeks vacation*

Thanks for the suggestions and comments folks. Am only now back from vacation, and have lot's catching up to do...

The tank was untouched by human hands for just over two weeks - kind of a big deal for a 4 week old tank. And while everyone was gone it did the equivalent of over four 50% water changes with no one watching - too cool! But I must admit, I lowered the water level about 4 inches before I left. Risk does have to be managed. 

I was hoping to find that the tank had changed little. Instead I returned to find a somewhat bad GSA on the anubias. I knew it would show up eventually, but I didn't think it would come on this fast, this hard. A number of the oto cats died also. Not sure how many yet.

My tank was pretty stable the last week (6 days actually) before I left on vacation - and there were very few hints of algae. So I'm not sure what did this - time, decomposing fish, or maybe just a build up of the small doses of ADA Green Brighty that I've been auto-dosing. Hard to say.

I'll just cut back the ferts a bit, clean out the dead oto cats, clip the badly hit leaves, and keep an eye on it. I'll try to get pics later this week.

And oh, yeah... we had a number of power outages while I was gone. All the high-tech stuff self in the stand recovered just fine.


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## bigstick120 (May 23, 2005)

Dosent sound to bad for 2 weeks of no human contact! Up the PO4 and if you can get ahold of a some nerite snails. 10 should do the trick in the 75.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

bigstick120 said:


> Dosent sound to bad for 2 weeks of no human contact! Up the PO4 and if you can get ahold of a some nerite snails. 10 should do the trick in the 75.


No kiddin!

contact Fresh_newby she has lots of nerite snails im sure you two could work something out.

- fish newb -


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## jasonh (Oct 26, 2003)

scolley said:


> And oh, yeah... we had a number of power outages while I was gone. All the high-tech stuff self in the stand recovered just fine.


I know you said the electronic stuff recovered fine, but have you thought about getting a UPS and running everything except the lights and heaters off it? Not too expensive for a nice insurance policy


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

jasonh said:


> I know you said the electronic stuff recovered fine, but have you thought about getting a UPS and running everything except the lights and heaters off it? Not too expensive for a nice insurance policy


Yeah, I've thought about that Jason. I've got UPS's on some of my home network rig (it kicks butt on my aquarium stand!), and they really annoy me...

They have to be replaced every few years, they are a major disposal problem (they're quite toxic), most of them have the most annoying beeping when the power is out (I'd have to shoot myself if I had to listen to it long) and I'd be REALLY afraid to get one wet. So I just set things up so they will recover OK. The lights are never off so long that it really matters. Thanks though.


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## Mikee (May 11, 2006)

Hi Scolley nice tank! just remember if you do get discus remember to keep the water clean especially if their still young discus since their still growing(adults that are almost full grown doesnt matter all that much ive had 2 adult discus (breeding pair) in green water for weeks and they did fine) finally moved them along with another pair to 75g tank possibly adding the 5th discus soon. Also remember they like high temperatures around 28C is best. For filtration all i use is sponge filters. So like a few others said discus arent that hard to keep..as long as your water is cycled and clean and water parameters are in order there shouldnt be any problems just have to let them get use to your water. IMO I think discus would like nice in that setup!


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## attack11 (May 5, 2006)

if you're using an apc ups then just plug it into your comp with the rj45/usb cable and disable the alarm with their software. the alarm drives me crazy at work.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Need information or advice*

Thanks for the advice folks. Now I need a bit more if you don't mind...

Let me start with a current pic (clickable) of the tank. This is after cutting out about 35 of the worst GSA infected annubis leaves. They all have it to some extent of another, so I just pruned the worst.



The background balanese crypt is finally happy with it's new home and is taking off. You can't see it very well, but it is growing like gang busters, and I expect in 60 days the back corner of the tank will have the surface covered with long flowing crypt leaves... or so that's the plan.

I'm really posting about this problem below though. In the two leaves that you see one - the yellow one - was quite dead, and rotting on the substrate when I got back from vacation. It was the only dead leaf. But I took a pic of it because its yellow color, and clear disintegration looks so perfect, I was curious if it might be symptomatic of something. But it's the green leaf that has me worried.

This leaf was the only one like this that I saw pruning last night. It looks as if it has been eaten. I DO have snails (a problem for another day) and I've got a lot of Amano's, that WILL eat vegetable matter if there is no algae to their liking. They spend their day on the sand, picking though that, so I assume that means there is little algae, except the GSA on the anubias that they clearly don't eat.

Could the amano's have done this? I would suspect it being symptomatic of some deficiency, except it was the only leaf I found with this problem.

Any thoughts?


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## bigstick120 (May 23, 2005)

Interesting, was the green leaf attached or did it die and fall off? What I also notice is that the veins are still left in the yellow leaf. This leads me to beleive that it was eaten by the shrimp. I have seen photos of those almond leaves in shrimp tanks and they eat everything but the veins.  Do you see any pin holes in other leaves? Could be lacking in K, or just a soft spot in the leaf. As far as the GSA, thats and easy one add more PO4 until you dont see it anymore.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks. I should have mentioned, that green leaf was attached. Between the hole in the green leaf, the perfect "cleaning" of the dead leaf, and the fact that the amano's spend most of the day sifting sand, I'm starting to wonder if I have too many amanos - and too little algae. Or if I need to feed them a bit, or if they need more fish poop to eat.

As for the pin-holes, yes, I do have some. I have not added ANY ferts to this tank until after its 1st three weeks (3 weeks ago now). Then I started moderate doses of Potassium, and I think the pinholes have abated as a result.

I appreciate the advice on the PO4, but I can't at the moment. I should publish my fert plans for you guys, but I'm working a modified ADA fert schedule. In that schedule you don't switch to macros (other than K) until after month three. But instead of switching to ADA Step 2 (macros) at that time, I'm planning to start adding regular Greg Watson forms of Nitrogen and Phosphates then. So the GSA reduction from PO4 will have to wait another 6 weeks or so, assuming that actually works consistently.


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## gabeszone247 (Jul 8, 2006)

Your tank is awesome!!:thumbsup: I wish my tank could be half as clean looking as yours!!:biggrin:


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*No Discus*

:icon_cry: 

I hate to say it, but I've pretty much decided that I'm not putting discus in this tank. Not yet anyway. It's taken a while in "getting to know" the tank to come to this conclusion. And a little introspection has also helped.

For those of you that followed it, that last epic battle I went through with the thread algae in the original "Big Clear Kahuna" was a bear. It took a lot out of me. If my discus experience wound up being a problem experience, I'm just not sure I'm ready for that. Not yet.

Also the tank is so wonderfully low maintenance. I'm doing everything I can to make it even more so. I'd hate to counteract all that low-maintenance karma with high maintenance fish right now.

So, as boring as it sounds, I'm going for subtle visuals, color being the most important consideration. After that I'll work in some amusing fish - probably Apistogramma. 

I still feel like I have a lot more to learn about having a good planted tank. And until this one is rock solid, I want the emphasis of my efforts being on the plants. Not fish.

So maybe discus in a year, once this tank is fully mature.

So sorry for those of you that this will disappoint. I'm disappointed myself. I set this tank up with Discus keeping in mind as an option. And I still may get there with this aquascape. But not initially.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

I was going to say no Discus but didnt want to give them a bad rep. I think you made a wise decision and to quote you, _I'd hate to counteract all that low-maintenance karma with high maintenance fish right now._ pretty much explains it clearly and exactly what I was thinking back when the idea was first tossed around.

Apistogramma are wonderful fish. They dont push the environment off too much and Ive had a really good time with them so far. There are some really neat ones out there too!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Brilliant said:


> I was going to say no Discus but didn't want to give them a bad rep. I think you made a wise decision...


Thanks pal. I know that it's not a _exciting_ decision. No guts - no glory, and all that. But if I learned anything at all with my most prior, algae plagued, aquascape, it's that I'm in this hobby for relaxation and fun. Not for stress. And discus seem to have a really big number on the "risk potential" quotient. Especially for newbies with high expectations. And mine are.

So for me, right now, that means the discus adventure will have to wait. Thanks for the support.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

I wouldnt consider it a negative. Having a lovely low-maintenance tank is the goal and I think you achieved it. :thumbsup:


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

Wow Steve is looks really cool-- even better when the crypts grow in I'm imagining. Apistos sound like a great pick, and this is a good size/set-up for them. 

I hate fishing for comments, but I'm just curious what you'd think of my new aquarium dude, so please drop me some feedback sometime.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Yeah for Apistos. They do move slowly, unless chasing each other :hihi:.The big A. viejita males are pretty cool looking if you can find one. They are around sometimes. I got this breeder listing from Diablo C. They do a lot of varieties of Apistos, I believe...mailto:[email protected] I got some Apisto cacatoides females from them after looking locally for months. He threw in some Apisto sp. algodon juvis as well, which I need to find a home for before my A. viejita female kills them.

Edit, just saw the tank! Looks terrific! I wonder if its just the one leaf like that, that it was damaged and going to die or hurting and the snails did that. And you may well have some starving Amanos. With no fish and no Macros, its probably a pretty lean tank, much like in the wild...my guess. As a test, maybe throw in an algae wafer or a Hikari sinking tablet and see if the Amano's go crazy. I bet they'll devour it or anything you put in there, especially if they ARE starving.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks *Brilliant*. The real initial goal is on it's way to being achieved. Still have a ways to go for tank to settle in. And I'm hoping the lovely part will improve with that maturity too. Hoping.

*Steven *- I'll definately come take a look! And yep, the balanese are all planted along the back left to back middle of the tank. Since the lily pipes are in the back left of the tank there should be a number of nice leaves on the surface back there soon, floating over to the more empty and open area on the right. That's the plant anyway, and they are finally starting to take off with good growth. Woo hoo!

*Bob *- I love your A. cacatoides! And I love that fish in general. So I'll be giving the whole Apisto gang a good look. But that will only be for a little contrast and amusing personality for the tank. I'm looking elsewhere for color.

And the shrimp could be starving, though I do have some tiny amounts of GSA on the glass that no one is eating. I'm a bit surprised though. Currently I've got about 50 Amano's and at least 40 Oto's. I'm not feeding them, and they aren't dying. So they've got to be eating something.

As for that leaf, I think I've got an iron deficiency, and a possible very slight potassium deficiency. So I've increased the K2SO4 the tank gets every day to 2 ppm/day, and have started dosing ADA's Iron micro - ECA. We'll see how that works out over the next week or so.


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## ForeverGreen (Sep 5, 2006)

I just read all pages from the beginning and it's awesome!:thumbsup:


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## SuRje1976 (Feb 2, 2006)

Steve, 

I was reading your thread, and was hoping I could assist with the Eheim Pump to RO Connection. I have an automatic water changer that I fabricated from several components (and will be posting about very soon) that (at one point) involved making this transition from an Eheim 1250. Here's what you need for the input side of the pump:

3/8"JG x 1/2" NPT Male Connector

That part gets screwed right intom the hobby pump itself - you remove Eheim's insert. This is if you're using the 1250! Then this plugs right into that:

1/4"JG x 3/8"JG Stem

Your RO tubing goes straight into this.

For the output (on the 1250 is smaller) side you'd need:

1/4"JG x 3/8" NPT Male Connector

The RO tubing can go straight into this.

Use teflon tape (obviously).

Now I still think that the pump is your weak link, not because it will leak on you, but because you're going to be subjecting it to a TREMENDOUS amount of back-pressure. Mine has done fine thus far. If you're using a pump larger than the 1250, these fittings will not work (the larger pumps use 3/4" fittings on both the input and output side). Custom Aquatics sells a bushing that you could use to reduce these 3/4" sockets to 1/2":
 
3/4 inch x 1/2 inch Reducer Bushing MPT x FPT

Then you could use the above setup (described for the input side of the 1250), but the back-pressure might be a little too high for the pump to handle long term if you're reducing down to 1/4" RO.

Hope this helps - your tanks and threads have truly inspired me since I started keeping plants.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

scolley said:


> *Bob *- I love your A. cacatoides! And I love that fish in general. So I'll be giving the whole Apisto gang a good look. But that will only be for a little contrast and amusing personality for the tank. I'm looking elsewhere for color.


Yeah, I'm sure you know its easiest to just have one male Apisto and a few of his gals in a tank. Otherwise there are bound to be some ugly battles.


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## cbennett (Oct 20, 2005)

i love that you've chosen to go with apistos - they're my favorite and I'm loving my new 60 gal tank filled with tetras and apisto trifasciatas and dicrossus filamentosa. My tank looks so huge since the biggest fish is the BN plecos but the behaviors of the cichlids are so interesting I'm always hooked on the tank. It also helps that everybody is small when my schedule gets overwhelmed and I skip a waterchange or two. I recommend Home and Mainly Cichlids Home Page for apistos. 

I would recommend throwing in an algae tablet once a week for your algae crew. The dead yellow anubias leaf i don't think is anything to worry about, i usually get them on the bottom of the anubias after the leaf has been around for a looong time or if it's started to get shaded by other leaves. I just pluck it off as part of normal maintenance - doesn't happen too often though.


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## Ryzilla (Oct 29, 2005)

scolley said:


> *Bob *- I love your A. cacatoides! And I love that fish in general. So I'll be giving the whole Apisto gang a good look. But that will only be for a little contrast and amusing personality for the tank. I'm looking elsewhere for color.
> .


If you are looking for color why not go all endlers. I think I may have said this to you before in a pm. When I get my new tank ( I have no idea when but soon), I want it to be filled with endlers. I cant wait to have a 90g endlers species tank.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Ryzilla said:


> If you are looking for color why not go all endlers. I think I may have said this to you before in a pm. When I get my new tank ( I have no idea when but soon), I want it to be filled with endlers. I cant wait to have a 90g endlers species tank.


i think we all decided his tank was going to have red and blue substraight and LOTS of ornaments with guppies in the last thread.... lol...


but seriously endlers would look good. 

i would also look into blue/gold rams. they are awsome! a few pairs would look sweet.

but remember... they have a tendency to like shrimp!

the leaf thing... the yellow one was probably dead and got eaten by shrimp.
green looks like snails opposed to shrimp, i would throw in some summer squash or zuccinni for your algea eaters opposed to algea wafers as a treat to make sure they are getting enough food.

tank looks great!

- fish newb -


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Lot's of replies...*

Well, I've got lots of replies here. So hang on, this may be long (sorry). But first...


*TANK UPDATE*

I got my fish today! Woo hoo! :bounce: It's taking every thing I can do to write these replies (guilt kicking in), and not just stare going ga-ga at the tank. With these fish added, and the little trimming I just did, I cannot believe that I actually own a tank that looks this good. (please don't take that the wrong way...) It's taken a long time to get to something that looks like this, and I am THRILLED!

Pics soon. Promise.


*REPLIES*
*Brunog *- Thanks pal. And thanks for the info on the Anubias. And your Q on the AS was a good one, considering that the mass of this tank is either moss or anubias tied to drift wood. I could have had a glass bottom almost.

But the planted plants I do have seem to be doing real, real well. That's with the Marsilea, which is doing OK, but spreading real slow. But I attribute that to the low/moderate light that I'm running.

So I'm with *Y0uH0 *and *standoyo *- it seems to be worth the money.


*Fish Newb* - Thanks!


*Mikee *- Thanks for the good discus advice. I'm just not ready for discus I'm afraid. I'm willing to auto-top off my tanks while I'm on vacation. But I'm scared of discus. But soon though. I promise.


*attack11 *- Thanks for the APC pointers. I'm still afraid to get them anywhere near water though. That's a LOT of juice if it gets wet. With A/C at least you can ground out stray current. With a battery it could be a bit trickier.  


*gabeszone247 *- Worried about keeping your tank 1/2 this clean? Well let me tell you, since something went astray on vacation and I got the GSA on the annubias, there has been very, very little algae in this tank. It IS clean. So please keep posted. I'm learning here myself, and thankfully I'm doing something right. Hopefully we can learn together.


*Brilliant *- Thank you very much for the kind words - especially from such a clear, major, discus person. It is a REAL switch from the agonizing frustrations of my last tank! But with this one, I'm am really beginning to think I may just have achieved my goals too! Fingers crossed... :icon_conf 


*greenmiddlefinger *- Thanks Steven. Comps mean a lot when they come from a real artist like yourself!


*Betowess *- Thanks for the advice. I love apisto's. I've had a few myself. But I want yours! They look so good that I fall into the temptation of coveting. And yours I do covet. :icon_wink 


*ForeverGreen *- Thanks! Sorry you had to go through so many words. I'll have to work on more pics.


*SuRje1976 *- Wow! That was EXACTLY the info I needed. Thank you! I will absolutely go out and get those parts and fix that weak link.

But with that said, the link is weaker than you know. While I am not using a 1250, I am using a 1048. And the throttle is not the 1/4" RO tubing. It's the 1/8" opening in the solenoid. So that pump is really laboring hard. I need a smaller pump. Care to write up the same great info for a 1046?


*cbennett *- Wow! Thanks a million for those GREAT links! Do you have experience with their fish? Are they as good as they look?

As for the Apisto choice. It's not a DEFINITE. But it is a probably. I love their personality. And they can have nice color. And they are semi-aggressive, which could induce my new fish into schooling (I hope).


*Ryzilla *- Ry I LOVE endlers! Though I've never had any.

I'm already making inquiries for my next tank. In fact I've already started buying plants for it (not this 75g, but a tank I've not yet bought). And if all goes according to plan, endlers are going to play a BIG part. Thanks.


*Fish Newb* - Thanks Newb. I'm definately going to have to start tossing in a bit of tasty vegetation for the critters to eat. They aren't eating the GSA, and that's all I've got (thankfully not too much!) and there are just too many of them - 50+ shrimp, 40+ otos. I need to feed them. As for the snails, my crystal ball says they have some Botia striata in their future.

Thanks.


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## cbennett (Oct 20, 2005)

I've ordered fish from both places and both were awesome quality. I've actually gone to MainlyCichlids (they're local) and have seen the whole place and got to net my fish etc. Great place and Jim is awesome - really knows his stuff and really takes the extra step with everything. The trifasciatas I have now I got from him, which I think he got from Oliver Lucanus. They started breeding almost immediately after they went into the tank and have since raised several batches of babies in my 60 gal community tank. It's hilarious to see a half-inch fish boss an entire tank around!


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

Pics Steve!!!


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## SuRje1976 (Feb 2, 2006)

scolley said:


> And the throttle is not the 1/4" RO tubing. It's the 1/8" opening in the solenoid. So that pump is really laboring hard. I need a smaller pump. Care to write up the same great info for a 1046?


Steve, If I'm reading Eheim's website properly, the connection on the output side of the 1046 is 1/8" threaded anyway, so it might not be working harder than it was designed to, actually. Here's what I think you'd need:

Input side:

1/4"JG x 3/8" NPT Male Connector 

Output side:

1/4"JG x 1/8" NPT Male Connector

If you're using a 1048 (you mention both the 1046 and 1048 in your post), the input side is the same, but for the output you'd need:

1/4"JG x 1/4" NPT Male Connector

If you care to spend a wad of cash, this is what I'm using as a solenoid with my 1250 setup - it has a 3/8" opening - it works GREAT so far:

PF-HW5652-110

Of course this takes a series of adapters similar to the pump itself, but it's ROCK SOLID. 

Hope this is helpful.


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## JenThePlantGeek (Mar 27, 2006)

> I got my fish today! Woo hoo! It's taking every thing I can do to write these replies (guilt kicking in), and not just stare going ga-ga at the tank. With these fish added, and the little trimming I just did, I cannot believe that I actually own a tank that looks this good. (please don't take that the wrong way...) It's taken a long time to get to something that looks like this, and I am THRILLED!


It sounds like you're no longer 1 coaster shy of guru... don't you think?


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

JenThePlantGeek said:


> It sounds like you're no longer 1 coaster shy of guru... don't you think?


I don't know... last tank he was fine "originally" untill the coaster kicked in... maybe there is one in there again for good luck? :flick: lol... 


yeah you deffinatly will have to feed the algea eaters... mine dont eat GSA either or dust algea  

i cant believe you have 40+ ottos though. thats alot! it doesnt even seem to be that many!

now come on! your always being a tempter/cliffhanger/ suspencefull guy! why do you ALWAYS do this to us? :hihi:

over n out

- fish newb -


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

What kind of fish did you get and where? Please point me to this post I am missing I must be blind.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*I got a problem... can't wait for pics...*

*REPLIES* first...

*cbennett* - Thanks. I had a great chat with Jim today. Seems like a great guy and a great source! Thanks again for the recommendation.

*fresh_newby *- Pics before the weekend is over. Promise.

*SuRje1976* - Thanks for the additional info! I mentioned the 1046 because I might get one since it's smaller. And your solenoid is AWESOME. But that does take deep pockets! Especially if you need two. Mine were "only" $50 a pop. You could have bought 6 or 8 of mine and run them in parallel. :icon_wink 

*JenThePlantGeek* - Jen, that's the nicest thing I've heard in a long time. Thanks! But I still don't feel much like a guru. Not unless being a guru means know a lot about some stuff, and being real clear about what you don't know. In which case, I'm there.

*Fish Newb* - Good point pal. And in just a moment I'm going to describe a problem that just may destroy this tank. Not literally, but esthetically.

*Brilliant *- Read on...


*THE FISH*
OK, I'm not going to hold the surprise on the fish, since I now know they are not going to look as great as I hoped.

I got about 70 Paracheirodon simulans "Green Neon Tetras". I wanted to overlay all green plants with a real rich blue. Something that would school. Not shoal. School. Some of you may have figured that out from my recent post in "Swap and Shop".

One of our members, billionzz went WAY, WAY beyond the normal kind gesture, and told me where I could get them, and then actually picked them up at the LFS (which was not quite local for him!) and then boxed them up and shipped them to me! Wow. Thanks billionzz! You ARE the best.

Anyway, they all arrived massively healthy. And still are. And after acclimating them, I transferred them to the tank and WOW! They were spectacular looking! They schooled fantastically all evening! It was awesome, this big fluid mass of brilliant blue, winding its way around the tank! That was yesterday.

Now it appears they are comfortable. They have spread out everywhere. School schmool. When you first walk in the room they bunch up for a few seconds (the ones that don't hide), and then quickly they just spread out again like they own the place. Bummer! Not nearly as visually dramatic as yesterday!

So now I've gotta get fish to make them school again. Big enough to scare them, but not big enough to eat them, or the amanos (I can afford to lose a few otos if I have to).

And it gets worse. I figured out yesterday that I could actually make the extended deadline of the AGA 2006 contest. The tank isn't ready, but I feel like I've got to give it a shot anyway. 

So now I'm looking for a colorful fish, that will cause the green neons to school, and won't eat the amanos, and do it in a hurry.

Any thoughts? I AM ALL EARS.

Thanks.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Thats nice. My Apistos dont eat my Endlers. I just tossed in a few really small ones and my largest cac didnt eat em. I am sure they will pick off a few here and there but only the smaller ones. These fish are the size of Cardinals right? I would still go with Apistos...a nice trio of something special at least.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Brilliant said:


> Thats nice. My Apistos dont eat my Endlers.


Yea, but _do they eat Amano shrimp_? And even more important, _will they induce green neons to school_?

Adult green neons are a little smaller than adult neons or cardinals. About 1". I gather the big ones may go 1.25" or so. None of mine are bigger than 1", many are about 3/4".


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

those apistos shouldnt touch the green neons either. most of the dwarfs are pretty calm around other fish. the ones you have to worrry about are the agazzgis, they can get nippy at times but sounds awesome steve. i cant wait to see pictures of it all


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Amano shrimp are gigantic! I will put in my new cherries in the 75g to test my cacs if you want. One is gravid already so I am expecting some more.

Aggies are harder to keep but dont let me steer you away from anything. Some are little more delicate.

I dont think my Endlers are at ease in the tank around the Apistos...there is a fine line between food and friends and they are pretty close to it.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Yeah, I've had cacatoides in a tank with a bunch of cardinals. They never bothered them. And I don't THINK they bothered my amanos - but I had too few to be really sure.

What I'm concerned about is that they might be too calm (except of course with each other). They need to whip up a little anxiety in the green neons.

Frankly, though I've never had them, I was considering agassizi just because of that reputation. Again, maybe that might help schooling.

Also, there's angels or altums. Though they just might eat the neons. Hard to know for sure I suppose.

Brilliant - please don't waste any cherries on my account! Thanks though.

And thanks for the feedback. I am all ears.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

I'm pretty sure my A.viejitas are eating Amanos. Never seen it happen, but I had around 30 Amanos in that tank and I can only count around 11- 13 or so a few weeks later. And there is nothing else in there that could. The Amanos were for a first phase attack on some Clado. Now I'm thinking Excel is a much cheaper method. 

In my 90G, I've never seen my A. cacatoides go after shrimp. But I have seen him swallow a whole Hikari wafer in one gigantic bite, plenty of times. And my Amano population in that tank is diminishing. Might be attrition, Rainbows, doubtfully the Apisto, or a combination. Both Apisto species are really slow moving and don't bother other fish, unless its a dwarf Cichlid. 

I'm thinking anything large or fast enough will school up some neons. My Neon tetras were terrified of three large SAEs I had. They wouldn't school up however. Just hid in the bushes until I moved out the SAEs.

Now I have a feeling you're looking for something South American. But if you aren't, Rainbows definately school up the Neons, but never scare them too much...My Black Neons school up with my juvi rainbows (and sometimes the clowns... its pretty entertaining to see three species schooling together!:smile: )


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## cbennett (Oct 20, 2005)

my A. trifasciatas haven't eaten the one amano shrimp in the tank but they have chased it a few times and of course, trifasciatas are much smaller than cacatoides. However, they haven't bothered my jelly-bean tetras which are pretty teeny. Between the dicrossus and apistos in the tank, the tetras stay nice and schooled. :thumbsup:


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

scolley said:


> Also, there's angels or altums. Though they just might eat the neons. Hard to know for sure I suppose.
> 
> .


They do once they reach about 10" height!
By the time they reach 6" heigh, a school of 6 altums would dwarf a 72G.


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

scolley said:


> And it gets worse. I figured out yesterday that I could actually make the extended deadline of the AGA 2006 contest. The tank isn't ready, but I feel like I've got to give it a shot anyway.
> 
> So now I'm looking for a colorful fish, that will cause the green neons to school, and won't eat the amanos, and do it in a hurry.
> 
> ...


You can try dwarf neon rainbows. 
Boesmani rainbows may grow too big.
Smaller ones like adult lemon or diamond tetras tetras would also compliment your tank IMHO.

IMHO for pictures, you need human intervention to make them school! :hihi:


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

yeah skip the angels. they would eat all your green neons. my old angels ate cardinals like nothing. desimated a school in one night. 

right now im really liking he bleeding hearts for a bigger fish. they school with each other real good and have a neat personallity. im trying to find more to add to my 75, gonna shoot for about a dozen of them.im trying to think of something else but having brain lock, its too early in the morning for this. haha


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

OK, no angels/altums.

Rainbows are OK. Bummer. My problem is that I've had a few and I'm just not real fond of them. Very nice looking fish, but not my cup of tea from a personality perspective (_why is it that I expect no personality from a little fish like a neon, but want to see some from a larger fish??? Not exactly fair, is it?_)

Standoyo, I don't want human intervention for them to school. I understand that is what I may have to settle for (darn it). But it ain't what I want. I want to walk in the room and see them _doing it_.

A. viejitas eat Amanos. OK, that's out too.

A. trifasciatas could work. I'll have to look into them. 

Lemon, diamonds, and Bleeding Hearts are all good tank mates. But I'm assuming another tetra will to absoutely nothing to encouraging schooling. Unless of course I tossed in the one, true, schooling tetra - Rummy Noses. And I like those fish a lot, but I've got nothing to say for their color unfortunately.

CONCLUSIONS
So, that appears to leave me with Rams. Not as much personality as Apisto's, but pretty fish. And I'm still on the fence about Apistos. Maybe agassizi's. Or maybe cacatuoides, and just assume that I've got to be on a continuous "Amano" replenishment plan. Don't like that much. But I'd like some decent fish beyond cleaners and tiny schoolers.


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

I know what you mean Steve, fish only school when they're excited/scared. As a thought... but these are larger though- Rasbora kalochroma-Clown rasbora. 10cm max size. 6 for your tank. These guys are real schoolers. They might scare the Green neons into schooling but they themselves are a delight to watch.

Don't like replenishing shrimp or otos too but I once had an idea to get like cherries or CRS that can breed and replenish their own numbers. Unfortunately they[fry] are fish food.


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

I recently heard that flame tetras can be nasty. There are also a few tetra species that have a rep for it (serpae). But, as you said, I got 0 knowledge of whether green neons will KNOW to be scared by these types of fish.


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## bavarian3 (Feb 22, 2005)

Scolley, im in the same dilemma myself! I keep going back and forth between getting a pair of rams, or having a single male apisto.
Either way ill have a school of rummynose to go with. I may even just keep rummynose tetras only. Im sure they will look awesome if kept as a species only tank. Fish always do better when kept with their own kind.
To be honest i think rams have a better personality than cacatoides. cacatoides are pretty mellow and hide alot.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

bavarian3 said:


> To be honest i think rams have a better personality than cacatoides. cacatoides are pretty mellow and hide alot.



Agreed on mellow, but my cacatoides is out front most all the time. Of course he has three ladies he diggin on. He is not shy at all, and sometimes when my hand is in the tank he won't move away from me, like if I've a razor or such. Sometimes I think he is a few bricks short.

BTW, I ordered some Aqua Soil...


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*OK, thanks for the fish help, but now PICs!*

Well, I'm gonna try to minimize the words here, so...

1) These pics are crap. A reflection of my skills with a camera.
2) But these pics were taken 8 weeks (to the day) from when I planted the tank. Kind of an anniversary as it were.
3) It's worth noting that in my last aquascape I had algae problems on day 10. And by 8 weeks I was already ripping plants out that had clearly been overcome with algae.
4) Other than one panic reaction in my 2nd (?) week, after seeing the tiniest bit of hair algae on the glass, this glass has not been cleaned. It IS clean.
5) I do have some GSA. It is minimal. But present. There is NO other algae.
6) The d*mn green neons won't school. As you know, I'm working on that.
7) If it still looks this good in 8 MORE weeks, I'm gonna revert to that "guru" status as Jen suggested. But 8 weeks is a long time from now...

And as often happens with my pics... watch out. Clicking these will bring up some pretty big pics. I know that's a pain. But if you are looking for the warts in the tank, I'm exposing them for you to see.













Sorry I'm not better with a camera. It looks pretty cool up close.


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

Wonderful pics, only better if perhaps a pro was at it. 

I think since it's been only 8 weeks, good idea to withold on that coaster! :hihi:

Only GSA? You're doing great. Shade plants get more algae problems than that IME. The great pain is hair algae and BBA. I find hair algae more annoying because they grow in moss and is really hard to remove and no real remedy except with tootbrush and bleach!


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

looks wonderful steve. im still wishing i could see a couple discus swimming about in there.


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

I think . . . you need more fish Scolley, I can barely notice the simulans in there.

Looks great though! Actually, the two things that impress me most is the condition of the moss, and the anubias' ability to grow above water as I'm somewhat doubting you have very high humidity in your house.


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

Steve, what about a dwarf puffer, I have no real clue but have heard that they are mean and will chase everything. . .possibly induce your schooling? I would think that they are too small to eat amanos. Of course if it dosent work getting the little bugger out of there would be tough.


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## Evergreen (May 1, 2006)

Sorry, I don't like it.


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

that moss is KILLER. LOVE it.


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

Evergreen said:


> Sorry, I don't like it.


Why? It would be better if you explained yourself-- than you'd be helping him.


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## SuRje1976 (Feb 2, 2006)

Looks amazing Steve!


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Could have been snorkeling in the tropics with those closeups! Killer growth. And killing us in suspense for which bigger fish you end up with. BTW, I don't know if I believe this, but I read somewhere that Angels won't eat Neons if the Angel is a juvi when introduced and they grow up together... Of course if an Angel started munching, you could trade to someone or a LFS maybe...


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

Yes, I did that but of course after they grow up you'd want to keep them as I did! ha!


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## briandmiles (Feb 23, 2005)

*Rams*

Well I started a few months back with a tank full of neons and cherry shrimp. Then I got some rams and I haven't seen any shrimp in weeks. I've personally witnessed the male stalking, killing and eating the shrimp. You can actually hear it when he gets them. As for amano's, they may be too large for the rams to go after and the rams don't touch my endlers. They are very interesting fish and absolutely beautiful. This male will actually nibble at my fingers when I am messing around with the tank. 








and he always comes to the front and says "hi" when I come into the room. I highly recommend them. As far a sources you can get them from FLORIDA GUPPIES PLUS 

Brian


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## Bert H (Dec 15, 2003)

Steve, tank is looking great! :thumbsup: There's nothing wrong with your photography skills.


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## mecgeorgeneo (Aug 12, 2005)

your anubias is looking great! if i ever get another tank, i think you will be the inspiration for the anubias  that one little oto is so cute 

that ram above is so beautiful!


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## Paulie (Oct 11, 2005)

I'm extremely jealous, beautiful tank and low maintenance too. Maybe I missed it but what lighting are you using and how long is it on?


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## ianmoede (Oct 1, 2004)

Pearl gouramis herd my flame tetras like crazy, and they are pretty spectacularly colored in good lighting, ill have to get a picture of mine at some point. I also keep them with otos and amanos in a 10g, no problems whatsoever other tha theyre pretty agressive amongst themselves.


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

Looking good, Steve :thumbsup: ! Well done! 



scolley said:


> ". . . So, that appears to leave me with Rams. Not as much personality as Apisto's . . . "


You've never had any Rams have you ? I've only had one pair, but they without a doubt had more personality (with the exception of some Bettas) than anything else of that sort I've ever had. The Amanos _might_ be too large for them, or they might not. It's something you'd have to experiment with . . . and of course that might be an expensive experiment! 

I absolutely love the color of Rams though, almost fluorescent under the lights, and hope to get another pair or two myself in the future. 

Personally I vote for Rams, but I could be prejudiced .


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## Urkevitz (Jan 12, 2004)

I finally have a better appreciation of rimless tanks. The emmersed growth and wood wouldn't look nearly as good with a black frame blocking it.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Hi!*

I'm only replying briefly to say THANKS! for all the kind words, and even more THANKS! for the advice on fish. There has been some REALLY GOOD advice here - stuff I never thought of and am researching.

But I'm not gonna labor on a longer reply, 'cuz I'm locked in bitter, gut wrenching, and agonizing mental wrestling over a fish decision. I could spill out everything I'm thinking here, but it would just be unfair. I'd rationalize this fish, and that fish, and the really great merits of those other fish. And then when all was said and done, I'd wind up getting something else for a completely different set of reasons.

My wife doesn't have a hard time with this stuff. She says "_Flip a coin, and then do what you wanted to do anyway_." Good point. 

So I'm wrestling internally with that question... _just what is it that I really want to do_???

More later, after I'm able to get a bit more decisive.


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## jojo4rmdabronx (Dec 27, 2005)

dude, ur tank is soo friggen nice and clean. im jealous. how much do u think u spent on the plants and driftwood so far?


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

Steven, just pick some fish and if they don't work out return them to the LFS and buy some others. That's what I do.

I kept apistos and they are okay.. sort of reclusive.. mine just hid among the plants and only came out for food once in a while.. 

ramirezi are braver, and are almost always out in the open where I can enjoy them.. only problem is they die pretty easy.. apistos are hardier in my experience.. best to find an LFS with rams in a planted tank.. they seem to acclimate to the Co2 environment well.. pair I have now are the longest I hvae been able to keep a pair alive..


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*The fish are arriving Friday!*

*FISH DECISION*

Well, I have AGONIZED over this silly decision. Yes Barry, I know I should not make such a big deal over it. But this is my hobby and my passion, so I'm a bit overly caught up in such decisions. I can't help it. Sorry.

So, the fish are on order - arriving Friday. I imagine that it will be a week before they color up again and are worthy of pics. So stay posted.

My big dilemma now is the AGA contest. The fish will arrive in time for pics. But the tank itself is just not ready. I've decided that I'm going to enter anyway though. Not because I think my tank has a chance in the general "Aquatic Garden" category - much less in the heavily entered "Large" aquarium size class. I'm doing it just to support AGA and the contest. I won't even get an "honorable" mention. But I can feel good about just supporting the contest by fielding a semi-competitive entry.



*RESPONSES*

*banderbe *- I wish I could be so cavalier about a fish choice Barry. I guess I just don't have enough experience. I'm still at the stage of this hobby where every decision is important. I'm sure with more years in the hobby that will change.

*jojo4rmdabronx *-Thanks pal. But I'd rather not think about how much has gone into the plants and driftwood. Let's just say it's way more than $250. After that I'd rather not think about it.

*Urkevitz *- Thanks Kathy. Growing stuff out of the tank was not the primary reason why I went rimless. But it's nice to have the option of having things protruding, and even growing out of the tank. If you haven't seen it, you need to go take a look at Kingborris' thread here. It puts my efforts to miserable shame. That guy's efforts in this space set the bar at a new level!

*RoseHawke *- I've had rams Cindy. Blue rams. But maybe not enough, or not long enough. I just found the constant bickering among apisto's more amusing. From my limited experience, apisto's are fighters. Rams are lovers. That's better for the rams :smile: ,but not as much fun to watch. And thanks for the kind words.

*ianmoede *- I've got to give it to you... your Peal gourami suggestion came right out of left field! Cudos on something I hadn't even considered - hadn't crossed my mind. Good suggestion, thanks! 

*Paulie *- Thanks. My lighting is a large part of why I have no (almost "no" anyway) algae. It's a Tek 48" HO T5. I've got 6 54watt tubes. But every day I only turn on 1 10,000K and 1 6,700K bulb for 8 hours. That's it. Low light.

*mecgeorgeneo *- Thanks. I'm not rally an anubias fan. But it was the right plant for what I'm trying to accomplish. And BTW, I'm going to have too many Oto's soon, once the tank is completely stabilized. So since you seem to love them, shoot me a PM if you want some.

*Bert H* - Generous in your compliments as usual Bert. Thanks.

*briandmiles *- I gotta tell you Brian, that's the best looking Blue Ram that I've ever seen! Thanks for the good source too. But why don't you save me a lot of trouble, and sell me that one. :icon_wink That's one good looking fish!

*SuRje1976 *- Thanks Sergio!

*Betowess *- Suspense is the name of the game Bob! You know that. It's kinda like foreplay, but done with forum posts instead.

*danepatrick *- Thanks Dane. I wish I was experienced enough to know exactly why my moss is so happy. But it is definately trying to take over the tank.

*Evergreen *- Well, you can't ever please everybody. Thanks for sharing. But as Steven said, putting a little "why" behind a negative comment would be particularly helpful.

*lumpyfunk *- Like ianmoede's suggestion, your Dwarf Puffer suggestion was something I had absolutely never considered. A great suggestion IMO too. Thanks!

*greenmiddlefinger *- You are right about the Simulans Steven. I took those shots at night, turning the light on after it having been off for a few hours. So not only were most of them hiding, the ones that did come out were sporting their boring nighttime colors. It's better in the day.

And as for the anubias growing out of the tank, I'd love to address that briefly, and it also answers Urkevitz a bit more fully...

One of the primary reasons for selecting anubias was precisely because I knew they were not a true aquatic, and grew well out of water. My house is definately not very humid - rather dry actually. The success is in nothing more than selecting the right plant IMO - A. barteri. And I doubt if anyone has noticed, but I've got three types of anubias. Anubias barteri, A. barteri v. nana, and A. barteri v. nana petite. And as you view the tank, the A. barteri are at the top left growing out of the tank, the v. nana are the primary plant in the water, and the v. nana petite are on the ends of all the driftwood descending into the sand at the far right. The petite were viciously expensive, so I'm waiting on time for some propagation to allow them to become more visible. But the whole visual effect is supposed to be a similar leaf shape and color to be largest in the top left, descending to the very smallest on the far right.

Sorry for the long explanation. But I know you to be the passionate artist Steven, and I figured this was a subtle point you would appreciate. But it's gonna take some more time for it to be more visible.

*TheOtherGeoff *- Thanks Geoff. Discus? D*mn! Why didn't I think of that?

*standoyo *- Thanks Stan. I can only assume my lack of problems with algae in the moss is due to my keeping the water column just lean enough to feed the plants, but not enough to promote algae. That plus somewhat low light, naturally.

*bavarian3 *- Well! There's another strong vote for rams vs. cacatoides! Maybe my experiences are colored by the fact that when I had cacatoides I ignored conventional wisdom and put in practically all males, and put them in a very small space. It was never boring. Thanks for the tip though!​


*CONCLUSION*

So look for fish pics in a week or so. Please wish me luck. Once again, I think that in some respects I've gone out on a limb with my fish decision. It won't be boring, I promise you that.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

hehe sorry to throw the d word back at ya. but i think with whatever you end up within there its gonna look great.


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## ianmoede (Oct 1, 2004)

Those pearl gouramis are gonna look GREAT


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

good luck with the fish thing i know how it can be i ended up just going all inverts lol... but for other reasons as well. i do love blue rams though. i have 2 in my 10g i thought it was a pair but it looks to be 2 males. they always seem to be hiding, my tank is pretty covered in moss so i guess it would probably be a similer case for you but im hoping to trade in one male for a fm or get two more fm's but i think two pairs in a 10g is pushing iit a ttaadd bit much. 

the tank is AWSOME its filled in GREAT! in my experience moss doesnt like to be bothered alot. so once it sits and gets used to its place and it likes it it will be a weed. yours looks like just that. 

im not sure what you ended up ordering since you didnt tell us :hihi: but if you are up in RI rumford to be exact there is a great fish shop called "Rumford Pets" they have a very good fish selection usually and plants too. they have i think a 75g filled with blue rams and are around $7.50 per (pricy but I've yet to have one die on me from the change between tanks) they tend to be scared of me though,... im not sure why. if you are there for some reason i would ask for "Marino" he's the manager of the fish room great guy. and im pretty sure you get a discount for AGA members. just remembered this.... i think you just need like the membercard or whatever shows your a member...

i think ive found that when i had fish my juli corries would help my rummnose to school more also... it was very funny to watch 6 rummnose,3 juli cories, and even at time my otto and SAE's going around. 

ehh maybe im just talking stupid now i should stop lol... but your tank looks really good i have to say! its really filling in! 

good luck with the tank!

- Fish Newb -


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

Thanks for the info Steve-- I guess the petite's have a bit to go to make their presence felt. Mostly I was curious, because I've kept anubias in terrariums before and my experience was that they got burnt if the water level sank below them. Maybe the trick is to allow them to grow their leaves out of the water naturally, and make sure to not let the water level change too much.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*fish arrived today!!!*

You know what?!!! 

Discus will make Green Neon Tetras school like nobody's business!!! :bounce:​
I should know.  


More later, after I can bring up the lights and the new fishies decide that hunger is more important than hiding behind all those wonderfully comforting moss and anubias covered branches.


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## briandmiles (Feb 23, 2005)

I was hoping for discus


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## kingborris (Feb 25, 2004)

yay.... discus


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

scolley said:


> *CONCLUSION*
> So look for fish pics in a week or so. Please wish me luck. Once again, I think that in some respects I've gone out on a limb with my fish decision. It won't be boring, I promise you that.


I am going to hold you to that. Even pictures of the pigs in bags will do!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Having to explain myself...*



scolley said:


> :icon_cry:
> 
> I hate to say it, but I've pretty much decided that I'm not putting discus in this tank. Not yet anyway. It's taken a while in "getting to know" the tank to come to this conclusion. And a little introspection has also helped...
> 
> ...


I truncated that long post of mine. But either way, yes - I said that. And when I said it, I meant it.

So please don't think I'm not deeply appreciative of your non-discus fish information and suggestions you provided me with. I am. Because I REALLY HAD decided NO DISCUS. So even though I had designed this tank with discus in mind, my deciding to avoid them because of the extreme effort they can command left me in a quandary. I had never really considered anything else, and I really needed your advice. Thank you for helping me with that.

Some of you came up with outstanding suggestions IMO! But in my mind's eye, I had a view of what this tank was supposed to look like when complete. And nothing but discus could complete that picture. When I sought your help for finding a discus alternative, it never occured to me that I would not be able to accept anything else. It took me a lot of real hard looking at the wonderful choices suggested here to bring me to that realization.

So what do I learn from this? It's like I mentioned before - you do as my wife suggests, _"Flip a coin, and then do what you wanted to anyway!"_

I suppose we are all creatures subsumed by the dictates of our passions. Mine said _"It's gotta be DISCUS!"_


So when they decide to stop hiding, I'll snap pics (I promise BlueRam.)


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## Mangala (Jul 23, 2006)

I know it's (an aweful lot) late to be posting about the tank set-up, but I just found this thread yesterday (and finished reading through it today:icon_mrgr ), and I have one question:

How do you keep the water exit flow tube from getting all clogged with fish gunk and then making your water not exit as quickly since it's on a timer and then making your tank overflow 'cause your water intake thingy is on a timer toooo... and... omigawd, I would so panic with that system! 

But then, I'm so lo-tek with my tank... I use a cup and a bucket to drain water. I don't have a siphon at all.

So, do you drop some cleaner down the outtake tube?

(btw, I just thought of this when I realized the reason my filter (the first filter I've ever had, mind you) wasn't going as quickly was because it was clogged with gunk in the tube)

Also, I'm glad you didn't go with a dwarf puffer. From all I've read on them, they'd take chunks out of whatever you had in the tank with them, regardless of whether it'd fit in their mouth. I personally would get a dwarf puffer if I were breeding fish and needed a "garbage disposal". 

Otherwise: Love your tank. Gorgeous, beautiful growth, Love the moss! I'm a big fan of moss though I can't find it 'round here and will be buying from a seller on here when I have another tank to build. This tank is making me want to walk back down to the shore and pick up more driftwood.  

Thank you for the ideas!

Alyssa


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Mangala said:


> How do you keep the water exit flow tube from getting all clogged with fish gunk and then making your water not exit as quickly since it's on a timer and then making your tank overflow 'cause your water intake thingy is on a timer toooo... and... omigawd, I would so panic with that system!


Thanks Alyssa. Simple question - long anwer...

The drain doesn't clog because the in-line "T" that feeds the drain is on the outflow of my canister filter. So all the water going in the drain is clean and junk free.

And I don't worry about that on the inflow side because all the water flowing in is filtered by two 10 micron carbon block filters (primary purpose to remove chlorine) that remove any junk coming in.

But the crux of your question is about timing. You are assuming that if the timing gets messed up (either water flowing out, or water flowing in) that an overflow can result. Not true.

The "Fill" side of the "Drain/Fill" sequence is ended by a timer, in principal. But in reality, the fill timer is set just a bit longer than is necessary. That's in case the drain does indeed slow down for some unforeseen reason. So why doesn't my tank always fill more than it drained?

Because I have a pressure sensor that is set for a certain height of water in the tank. If that sensor senses too much water (in terms of inches height of water), then it shuts the fill process off.

So in practical terms, with every single drain/fill sequence the fill timer is set to fill the tank just a few millimeters higher than it started. But the fill sensor is set to shut the fill process down at the point where the drain started. And if the fill sensor failed, because this "extra" fill is only a few millimeters, it would take quite a few days for the tank to actually overflow. And when it did, the timer would limit that to only a little bit.

Or so that's the idea anyway. :smile:


PS and BTW - I'm thrilled that I have this wonderful auto-water change mechanism working. I don't think I would have selected discus with out it. Yesterday I had the thing set to do multiple small changes every day that amounted to a 50% change every 5 days or so. Normally dropping dicus in would have represented such an immense change in bio-load (I didn't buy juvies) that I would be terrified of overwhelming the tank and having a major algae bloom. But with this system, I've just just reset it to doing a 50% w/c every 2 days. So hopefully this is suffecient for a number of weeks (or months) for my tank to catch up to the bioload, and I can begin to work that number back down to something closer to 50% every week.


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

I'm really happy for you and your discus Steve. :bounce: 

Tonight, I had a similar realization-- I set up this tank wanting to have the plain black nerites, and damn it I'm going to want them no matter what!! Even if the water is all soft from CO2 and Aquasoil!! So I set up a desk tank as their hard-water rest tank today and will order soon.

I agree! In the end there's no stopping the human animal from getting what it wants, and no stopping the artist's need to have his vision filled! Go Steve!!:bounce: :bounce:


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

All right, *DISCUS! *







!

Well, Steve, like they say, you'll never know unless you try roud: .


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

I cant wait for the Pics!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*1st Discus Pic*

:bounce: Taaa daaa! 




Here's my first pic. I'll do more later, after they settle in.

They are Cobalts, about 4" to 4.5", purchased from one of the real "Discus Whisperers" out there - Daniel Villasenor of Gulf Coast Discus.

FedEx royally mucked up the overnight shipping. It's a testament to the quality and health of Dan's fish that these things are coming out like this in less than 24 hours. FedEx darn near killed these fish (but that is a long story), and I'm thrilled to see them doing so well today!

I got this size because I wanted to not have to feed too often, and to get beyond all those "childhood" ailments discus get. I got this quantity because I know that they are going to get big, and that a 75 is a small tank. So this is the smallest number I though I could get away with and still have them happy.

And if you think I wrestled and agonized over fish choices, you have no idea how long it took me to decide to get Cobalts! I know Jeff Senske has practically made blue discus with a planted tank somewhat of an icon. And this would certainly appear to be just copying that (though I do believe Jeff uses Blue Diamonds). But the fact is, that image is iconic precisely because blue looks so darn good in front of a green background. That's why amano uses all the green neon tetras (that are actually blue). 

And when I looked at all the other multicolored discus, I decided that I wanted the tank to be peaceful. Not flashy. So blue was the color. Cobalts was my choice of blue. Now I just have to wait for them to color up. They are a bit stressed, new to the tank, and still young. But they are already showing some color. And it's only going to get better!

I'm so thrilled with this decision! I'll post more pics as my new buddies settle in!


And yes Steven and Cindy. This was indeed a passion thing. Sometimes you just can't help yourself. Like Cindy said, otherwise you will never know.:icon_wink And so far, I'm d*mn glad I did!


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Oh YEAH! Very nice compliment to the tank. Bet those Neons start schooling up too! I love the Cobalts!roud:


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## mecgeorgeneo (Aug 12, 2005)

wow amazing. the discus look great! (blue against green- same story with neon tetras) sorry to hear fedex messed up shipping. thats always a scare  but they're all alive. cant wait to see more pics!

EDIT: just read the previous page. well considering you're not an anubias fan, you certainly did a great job! hmm lots of oto babies? thats a great offer! at the moment, i have no space but one day. i'd love to have a school of otos (i know they dont always school  )


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## Sietch31 (Feb 13, 2006)

Waouh !

Great !

Very nice looking, can't wait to see a full shot of the tank....


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

They look sweet Steve . . . nice choice . . .


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

Oh, *MAN*, Steve, they look great! I hope they do well for you. Like mecgeorgeneo said, the blue against the green looks awesome. Of course I've always been a "cool" color person anyway, and that might have something to do with it. Even if the tank isn't ready for the contest, it still looks good. And after all the trials and tribulations you went through with "Kahuna 1.0" its about time that "Kahuna 2.0" straightens up and flies right!


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## cbennett (Oct 20, 2005)

w00t!!!!! Awesome! When I saw your post I was like, "aaaaaalright!!!" My husband was like, what the heck's going on? Heeheehee. Anyway, you made my day. :bounce: I wish my tank was big enough for discus but it's only 60 gallons. Just as well, because I tend to be lazy. :icon_mrgr I can't wait to see how everything settles in, the tank will look awesome!


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## danDman (Nov 2, 2003)

Looks great Steve. A couple of days they should be settled in and their fins should open up.
I want ppl to know that Steve is very passionate in this hobby and is one of the nicest guy I ever dealt with.roud: roud: 

Thank you Steve. 

KIT,
Dan
Gulf Coast Discus


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## hazeen (May 21, 2006)

woow .. what to say ! .. you are the king Steve.roud:


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

Amazing, you went for it! Looks fantastic. No regrets man that's what i say.

I think Discus is the one of the best choices[if not the best!] if you want a calm atmosphere.

Great, now you got me thinking too. hmmm.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

very nice steve. they will be awesome looking once they get settled in and the color really comes out. im glad you got them


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks folks. This is pretty exciting for me! Having to be patient as my new friends get acclimated to their new home.

Nothing much to report, other that what you would expect...

The discus are spending most of their time hiding. Sometimes they get spooked and leap into the air (potential trouble there...). They are eating, but not voraciously. I'm looking into T5 bulbs that will accentuate their color better. And the Aquasoil is really getting kicked onto the sand - I'm gonna have to find a solid solution to that problem.

It's all transitional stuff. I'm sure things will be very well settled in a few weeks. Right now I'm just happy I haven't seen any algae spikes yet. Fingers crossed on that one - my ammonia is up to about 0.1 (a bit more than the usual zero), but nitrite is 0, and nitrates are still hovering around 5 ppm, just where I want them. So as long as I can keep the water column lean, and algae at bay, the discus can take all the time in the world to acclimate. I'm in no rush.

Thanks again for kind words and support. I'll get more pics as soon as the start spending less time in the bushes.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

HA! You ended up getting Discus!!!
That is really cool and for sure a good move getting larger ones.
You have an automatic water changer huh...I have to look more at your setup.

They look really nice! roud: 
I thought Cobalt were solids. They look more like my Brilliant blues or Royal blues with the markings.
They look so good right now I cant wait to see more mugshots :thumbsup:


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

Brilliant said:


> I thought Cobalt were solids. They look more like my Brilliant blues or Royal blues with the markings.
> The looks good right now I cant wait to see more mugshots :thumbsup:


I thought so to. But the markings on the body save the face tend to fill up as they reach maturity. We'll know in less than a year. lol.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

cobalts arent always solid. the soild blue ones are blue diamonds. plus they will prolley change color some as they mature. i know one of my pigeon bloods started off white and grey, now its bright yellow and blue.


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

YAY DISCUS... I can live vicariously through you now...lol nice choice. Steve


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

wow when i scrolled down and saw them my jaw dropped....  roud: thats one of the few times it has on here. awsome job! its great you just went for the discus now. they look awsome! can you give a full tank shot to show how they look in relation to the whole tank? the color is stunning looks great with the neons... and you said that they wherent all colored up yet............:bounce: 

i think its time you change that title to guru. but make sure to stay on top of things!! as always,.,.....

- fish newb -


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks folks! It always feels good when you know people are getting a kick out of what you are up to. I have no doubt that _I'm getting the biggest kick_ though! But I'm glad you are enjoying it too!

I suspect it's going to be a while before I can get a decent shot to you. One of the known downsides of getting larger discus is that they take longer to acclimate. Well these have hunkered down to full hiding mode. They do come out - more today than yesterday, thank goodness! But it's clear that it's going to be a little while before the are comfortable enough with the new home to strut their stuff for the camera.

I do have this one shot that get's most of the tank. It's not a great shot. And it's not all of the tank. But it's the closest I can get to a full tank shot. Sorry. Check back in a few weeks for better.




*AGA Aquascaping Contest 2006*
I should probably mention that I will probably have to drop out of the contest this year. These fish absolutely freak when I put my hands in the tank. And the tank needs a major trim before it's contest ready. So I've decided I'm not going to stress the fish just so I can get good shots of the tank. But I'm also convinced that I'm not going to send in poor shots with the tank looking less than its best. So chances are, I'm not gonna get the shots in need in the 4 days before the submission expiration date.


*Tank Update*
The tank itself is looking killer - from a plant health perspective anyway. I had that outbreak of GSA while I was on vacation about a month ago. Well that GSA is almost completely gone now. And I've had problems with pinholes - on old leaves, and necrotic spots on some leaves - new growth primarily. So I doubled the micro doses (ADA Green Brighty Step 1), tripled the iron (ADA ECA), and doubled the potassium (K2SO4 stock solution). And I began dosing just a wee bit of Calcium Chloride and Magnesium Sulfate - just enough to raise my GH 1 degree.

And I'm happy to report that pinholes are gone. And the necrotic spots are definately greatly reduced. Not quite sure if gone though. But every thing is growing like gangbusters for a low light tank, and all the growth looks just as healthy as can be. Yaahoo!


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## turtlehead (May 31, 2005)

Nice updates scolley, how much did each of the discus cost you?


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## JenThePlantGeek (Mar 27, 2006)

Haha, I doubt he'll want to spill the beans on that one, but you could always ask the supplier


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## Stan the Man (Dec 12, 2005)

Scolley, that is an absolutely gorgeous tank. Your hard work and perserverence has really paid off! I'm so jealous of your automated water changer. Something to aspire to one day.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

scolley said:


> I've decided I'm not going to stress the fish just so I can get good shots of the tank.


The tank looks great. I am glad you are taking this first stage lightly and not thinking of medicating the fish for hiding. I like what you are saying here, it sounds like the fish come first thats what I like to see. If you have Discus AND a show winning plant tank thats quite a feat 

:fish:


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## sNApple (Nov 6, 2005)

super nice


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Hey, what's with the quotes???*

I tried to use the new multi-quote button, and it's not working at all with my IE 6.0.29. I guess I'll respond the hard way until I figure it out...




turtlehead said:


> Nice updates scolley, how much did each of the discus cost you?


Thanks. I did list the web site. Check it out. Pretty good prices IMO. Just don't buy all the bigger cobalts please, until I figure out whether any of mine are going to take the "_midnight jump of death_".




JenThePlantGeek said:


> Haha, I doubt he'll want to spill the beans on that one, but you could always ask the supplier.


 Thank Jen. So true.

But truth be told, I've been reasonably open about costs on my threads. It just seems to me that cost is one of the many factors we all have to consider when evaluating possibilities in this hobby. I hope that I've been equally candid about how easy something was (or hard), how successful I was (or not), how good it looked when finished (or crappy), or how long it took... All factors for consideration, so people can either avoid my mistakes, or properly evaluate the "cost" of repeating anything I was fortunate enought to do right.

But I should probably be more circumspect about discussing money. 

And BTW - I don't think I've taken the chance to do this publicly... but please allow me to extend heartfelt _congratulations _ to you on your new status as a moderator! It could not happen to a better board member, and I KNOW that we will all be deeply in your debt for your contributions! I am consistently amazed at the good judgment shown here at the choices of moderators. We are truly fortunate.




Stan the Man said:


> Scolley, that is an absolutely gorgeous tank. Your hard work and perseverance has really paid off! I'm so jealous of your automated water changer. Something to aspire to one day.


Stan this week I finished the last tweak to the water change system. I'll have to watch it for a few weeks, but I think it worked. There was a problem with rapid on/off switching of the system as the tank approached a full condition, and someone walked near the tank. Vibrations set it off. Never a risk of flooding, just an noisy and disconcerting electromechanical event. Well with a lot of basic circuitry research (I've got zero background in electronics), some practice with a soldering iron, and few bucks spent at Radio Shack, that's a thing of the past.

I have decided that when time permits I'm going to write it up - not gonna worry about trying to sell the sensor. Too small a market, too small a profit margin, and too easy to copy. So I'll post it soon. I'm happy to share it as it has absolutely turned this hobby into a joy. Until I had it, I really did not appreciate how fantastic automated water changes would be. A short list of benefits...

1) get back 45 minutes a week (if doing a weekly change)
2) allows you to massively increase water change frequency if temporarily needed - like for a brand new tank - or just after having added a bunch of fish (like 5 decent sized discus!).
3) it makes your water very, very consistent day to day​




Brilliant said:


> I like what you are saying here, it sounds like the fish come first thats what I like to see. If you have Discus AND a show winning plant tank thats quite a feat.


Is there any choice about fish coming first? Unless you want neurotic fish. Noooo, I want happy, happy, happy fish!

And you got me laughing out loud about "show winning" tank! Goodness knows I'd love that, but I'm nowhere near there yet pal! Thanks for the thought though. Check back this time next year. Fingers crossed...




sNApple said:


> super nice


Thanks! And it's FUN too!


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

I agree but it seems people dont care about the fish. I dunno maybe I am misunderstanding. Just dont walk up to the tank too quickly and everything should be OK my only jumper was startled by my abrupt presence in front of em I even has glass lids :icon_eek: sucker slipper right out of the sliver in the back for the filter tubing....I have my fingers crossed with you.


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## triple red (May 27, 2005)

omg....those discus are beautiful......oh and your tank is ok too.:hihi: 
i really love what your doing .....its obvious that youve put alotta thought into your tank ...and its coming out fantastic

you know ..if you ever want to get rid of those fishes...i live right down the road...


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## danDman (Nov 2, 2003)

Hi Steve,
Sorry Steve. I wish there is something I can tell you to speed up the acclimation of the fishes. The only thing I can think of is to feed them a little frozen bloodworms when you approach the tank. They will come to think of you as food. Another way is to add more discus. They seem to feel more comportable in larger group. Please let me know asap because they will be gone soon.

daniel


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## Badcopnofishtank (Jan 20, 2004)

Perfectly constructed ADA style tank. Check
Automatic water changing unit. Check
Automated dosing. Check 
Wood provided by planted tank icon. Check
Cobalt discus. Check
Tank envy factor: Priceless

:thumbsup:


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Daniel*- Thanks for the advice. As we discussed today, there were multiple possible sources of this shyness and nervousness...

1) Me having CO2 at 50 ppm rather than a more tolerable 30.
2) I did not put my food in the open, but put it close to their hiding places.
3) I didn't take advantage of the discus hunger cycle and feeding them a little bit a few times a day (to break them in to my presense), where I had been giving them 1-2 feedings a day because I clearly scared them.
4) Not enough fish.​
So I'm fixing all that! I look forward the the next three cobalts you are sending tonight! Thanks. My ammonia is back down zero, so I don't think I've overloaded the plants yet. But I may find myself stuck on a really frequent water change cycle. 


*Brilliant *- thanks for the concern. Maybe my fixing all of the problems above will help. Hope so.


*triple red* - Thanks neighbor! And with these extra fish, after they get over their skittishness I just may need you to take a few off my hands. So I can do less frequent water changes...


*Badcopnofishtank *- LOL! And Thanks! That post was "_priceless_"!


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## Stan the Man (Dec 12, 2005)

scolley said:


> I have decided that when time permits I'm going to write it up - not gonna worry about trying to sell the sensor. Too small a market, too small a profit margin, and too easy to copy. So I'll post it soon. I'm happy to share it as it has absolutely turned this hobby into a joy. Until I had it, I really did not appreciate how fantastic automated water changes would be. A short list of benefits...
> 
> 1) get back 45 minutes a week (if doing a weekly change)
> 2) allows you to massively increase water change frequency if temporarily needed - like for a brand new tank - or just after having added a bunch of fish (like 5 decent sized discus!).
> 3) it makes your water very, very consistent day to day​


I would love to 'upgrade' my 70g planted tank to automated water changes. I guess one of the difficulties is that the tank would need to be drilled, and connections made directly to a water line (unfortunately there's no plumbing nearby the tank). Anyways, I'd love to see the schematics behind your auto water changer one day, although I'm sure that it'd be many years before I'd be able to set it up.


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

Wow more discus and auto water change? What's the double of priceless?

Would love to see that tank auto-water change schematics. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## Y0uH0 (Dec 19, 2005)

Great fish choice for your tank which makes it all the more beautiful. A pity that you will be dropping out of the contest. It would have been great to see how the judges would have commented on your tank. But then again,i really love your tank alot.


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## the_noobinator (Jun 10, 2006)

i like that the fish are all (for the most part) blue.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*AGA 2006 Contest reject photos*

The fish chilled out enough that I felt OK about trimming the plants a bit yesterday. That's what was needed for me to take AGA pics, so I did. I was afraid the fish would freak. But they just hid in the weeds, which was good enough for me!

My entry this year will definately be compromised. There's a number of things wrong with the aquascape IMO. There just hasn't been enough time with this tank, and these fish, to correct them all. But that's OK. There's always next year. God willing.

So I entered photos this year anyway. Primarily to support AGA and the contest by keeping the number of entries up, and maybe even by providing just a little bit of competition. But don't get me wrong. I've go zero expectations for my entry this year. But I DO hope the judges at least have something nice to say. That's human nature, right?

Here's the rejects - the best of the pics I decided not to use in the contest. As usual, don't click on them unless you want a really big file coming your way.





















Very best of luck to everyone else that is entering!


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

It's all come together Steve-- I'm glad you got to enter this year 

It's hard knowing I got to wait until the 2007 contests to enter, so I hope you have fun even if you think the tank's still immature.


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

The tank and the fish look great....the pics; however, are a bit lacking. The quality and lighting are going to hurt you more than the tank immaturity. I love the tank! The fish don't look shy at all. Good luck bud.


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

Wow. Those pics almost look fake. I hope you don't take offense to that. What a great choice of fish. I'm almost thankful I don't have that tank in my house. I'd never be able to get up from in front of it.


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

jart said:


> Wow. Those pics almost look fake. I hope you don't take offense to that. What a great choice of fish. I'm almost thankful I don't have that tank in my house. I'd never be able to get up from in front of it.


That's interesting, that's almost the exact same thing my BIL said about the plants in my tank; "They almost look fake!" You take it as a compliment.

I know you've heard it enough (yeah, right  ) Steve, but it's looking great! And those Discus---! Words cannot describe. I think someone prior mentioned it, we'll just live a vicarious Discus existence through you :hihi:


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

fresh_newby said:


> The tank and the fish look great....the pics; however, are a bit lacking. Thde quality and lighting are going to hurt you more than the tank immaturity....





jart said:


> Wow. Those pics almost look fake. I hope you don't take offense to that...


Perfectly reasonable comments. In fact, I DO appreciate your candor. SO, if I may be BOLD, I'd like to give you an HONEST response.

This tank looks SO MUCH BETTER in person than these pictures convey, IT'S BEYOND WORDS. These pics look like sh*t. The tank is, IMO, jaw-dropping in person. But using my cheap photography equiptment...

1) You can't see the detail of the plants. Small wonder they look fake.
2) IT LOOKS FLAT. That drives me crazy. My cheap lens requires me to use low f-stops, which devastates any "depth of field" in the photos. So what in person looks wonderfully dimensional (great impressions of scaling from front-to-back) are COMPLETELY lost to the photos. Bummer.
3) The water looks OPAQUE! Due to the cheap photo equipment (poor light gathering ability) I have to BLAST the lights. At this level of light, ANY water is going to look cloudy. Under normal light, this water appears CRYSTAL clear. Another p*sser, that problem.
4) Glare. Truth be told, I'm not willing to wait until the perfect time of day, and raise all kinds of light screens to perfectly control the light hitting the tank. So glare is a real issue. So be it.​
Bottom line, I'm kind of pleased that I'm at a point where photography matters. Kind of an accomplishment IMO. When my issues are not lack of vision, algae, unhealthy fish, or green water, I figured I've learned something anyway. For next year I will just have to either invest in better photography equipment (fat chance!) or make friends with someone who has it (Hey Beowtess, I'll buy the beers if you'll fly to Connecticut!).

I apologize for being so frank. It is, of course, my opinion. But I post it here because it's important for me for you to know, that a really nice tank is not our of reach. If you want to know how, my posts are one of your many painfully honest resources for figuring that out. 

And as always, I DO APPRECIATE your comments. Thanks!:icon_wink


PS - Cindy, I fully appreciate the "vicarious" discus experience need. So being the not so completely nice person that I am, I'm ABSOLUTELY going to share that discus experience here. What you have seen to date is the VERY BEST that I've seen of discus. There is LOTS about these d*mn fish that has royally p*ssed me off. Now that the AGA 2006 Contest photographs are out of the way, I can start sharing those "joys" very soon.:hihi:


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## jasonh (Oct 26, 2003)

So, they may have changed it, but wasn't it a requirement for entering the same tank in the AGA contest 2 years in a row that the aquascape had to change significantly? Wouldn't that keep you from entering next year if you don't change a lot and just let it mature, scolley? Or am I wrong and they changed it?.


or maybe I'm wrong completely and they just require new photos....

anywhoo, looks great scolley! And btw, you don't need expensive stuff for good pics....a decent $300-400 camera would suffice


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

jasonh said:


> So, they may have changed it, but wasn't it a requirement for entering the same tank in the AGA contest 2 years in a row that the aquascape had to change significantly? Wouldn't that keep you from entering next year if you don't change a lot and just let it mature, scolley? Or am I wrong and they changed it?.
> 
> 
> or maybe I'm wrong completely and they just require new photos....
> ...


Thanks Jason. I can't tell you about what the rules "were". But I can tell you that no such rules apply now - just that your pics cannot have been used previously - not the aquascape itself. If that were the case I'd have waited until I had my ducks in a row and waited until I had an actual chance.

But I do appreciate your advice on the photo equipment. I can always use the excuse to buy a better camera. But my camera DID cost EXACTLY between $300 and $400 just under 2 years ago. Maybe things have changed - A LOT. Or maybe I'm just a crappy photographer. :redface:


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## jasonh (Oct 26, 2003)

scolley said:


> Thanks Jason. I can't tell you about what the rules "were". But I can tell you that no such rules apply now - just that your pics cannot have been used previously - not the aquascape itself. If that were the case I'd have waited until I had my ducks in a row and waited until I had an actual chance.
> 
> But I do appreciate your advice on the photo equipment. I can always use the excuse to buy a better camera. But my camera DID cost EXACTLY between $300 and $400 just under 2 years ago. Maybe things have changed - A LOT. Or maybe I'm just a crappy photographer. :redface:


Well I must just be mistaken then. That would actually suck pretty bad to basically have to come up with a new scape every year.

As for the camera, who knows. I think you'll be best off with a camera that you can at least set aperature and exposure compensation. Older cameras may not have this ability, especially since prices are lower now for better stuff. It took me a while to get a really good pic out of my camera, and now I only use that mode (aperature priority) for pics of the aquarium. Funny, my "A" mode is for Aquarium, I just realized that 

What actually kind of helps is to watch a video on using a professional camera. I watched a video on using the Cannon EOS20D (WAY out of my price/skill range), but it really helps to understand some of the settings and functions. 

just my $0.02 worth of babbling though....keep up the good work.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

WOW! Looking great Steve! roud: roud: roud: 

-Jeremiah


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Zoom In!!!*

Hey! I just realized that my first picture was linked to NOTHING! So if you clicked on it, you got NADA. But I've fixed it now.

If you want to see solid proof that the fert regimen that I'm currently on will not only sustain healthy growth, but can also be followed without encouraging algae, please click on one of these pics, and observe the leaves of the slow-growing anubias under high magnification.

There's the proof, submitted for your review.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

looks wonderful steve. i wish you the best of luck this year in the AGA


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## donaldbyrd (Jun 8, 2005)

Steve just a suggestion on the feeding, Aquatic Foods Home Page carry california black worms, my discus go crazy for them, they forget all about being shy when they know they are getting worms.


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## danDman (Nov 2, 2003)

Wow Steve. They look great.roud: roud:


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## Mangala (Jul 23, 2006)

Hey, just a thought... Have you (or any of you) thought of getting a professional photographer in to take pics of the tank? I know my personal photography skills blow so much I wouldn't be able to enter any contests even if I HAD a possible prize-winning tank.... because the judges would be like, "what's that green blob? is that a plant? huh, I guess it probably is. could just be algae, though. Oh! she says it's the blue gourami... but it looks green in the pic!" etcetera, etcetera...


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## Oqsy (Jul 3, 2004)

crinum was a stroke of brilliance, steve... it makes all the difference in the world  discus are brilliant, and once again i have tank envy! keep it up.

Chris


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

Steve, 

The tank looks magnificent!! My favorite picture is the second one, however I would crop out the surface of the water and the seam on the left. I am excited to see your entry pictures!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*jasonh *- problem is Jason, I think I understand the rudiments of photography, at least the settings on my camera anyway. I tinkered in photography as a teenager and college student, and still actually remember what an f-stop is, depth of field, and all that. And that is enough to know my real issue is my lens - can't gather enough light. Great in the daylight, and great indoors with a flash. But with no flash indoors, it's a struggle. An alternative is a whole bunch of reflectors and such around the tank. But I'm just not going to be bothered with that. Planted tanks are my hobby. Not photography (anymore).

*crshadow *- Thanks Jeremiah!

*donaldbyrd *- Thanks for the tip Donald! I've been told about how they go nuts over black worms. Actually I was told "feeding frenzy", I believe. But I'm not putting live critters in my fridge. And they come out to eat now. They just don't stay out much. But thanks for the tip.

*danDman *- Thanks Daniel! And thanks for the quick turnaround on the additional three fish! Having three more does seem to bring them out more. But to my amazement, there is actually room in the driftwood in that tank for 8 four inch (average) discus to hide. Unbelievable.

*Mangala *- That is a good idea. And I've talked to a couple of people, and the bottom line was they don't do favors, and their prices for a "shoot" at my house were a lot more than my tank cost. Maybe I don't need a professional (or can't afford one), but should try to find a serious amateur.

*Oqsy *- Thank Chris! And thanks for mentioning that crinium. That is turning out exactly as planned. And I am thrilled. There are a couple more off to the left. They are in the shade and subsequently growing slower. But even as they begin to poke out, they will not be nearly as visible. I'm hoping though they will provide a bit of balance - bringing that texture as a visual element to the other side of the tank. I want the main crinium to look a part of the whole (because you see the texture elsewhere in the weeds).

*lumpyfunk *- Thanks Lump! But don't hold your breath about the AGA shots. They aren't much better really. Just a shade better than these.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

I like the tank soo much more with fish!
They look very happy. Best of luck to you.


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

Scolley, just a thought, you might try playing around with foamcore for low-cost lighting reflectors, I'm not a photographer and only ever dabbled in it when I was younger (no money to _really_ get into it.) I can't get to the exif info on your pix to see if I might even be able to make an uninformed suggestion . You did inspire me to try a couple things with my own camera, though, and I was actually able to _finally_ get a halfway decent pic of one of the little "rockets" by bumping the ISO up to 400 (the max on my camera.) I thought surely the quality would be unacceptable at that, but honestly I can't tell any difference. I'm going to have to piddle around taking some more pix now!

(clickable thumbnail)


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

As someone who also did AGA'ed my tank I will back up everything that Steve posted above about it being REALLY hard. (And his pictures are WAY better than he would have you believe)

Luckily the first question in the AGA contest FAQ is "Is this a Photo Contest?"

Last year I was lucky enough to have the owner of thekrib.net shoot my tank. The better gear (and knowledge on how to use it) make a huge difference. For example a remote flash (short wire to camera body) makes for great fish pictures as the flash is held above the fish.

Next year (well every year) I have the idea of organizing an AGA photo shoot (pair the photo nuts with the tank nuts) to go around and shoot several tanks in the area...


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## jasonh (Oct 26, 2003)

scolley said:


> Maybe I don't need a professional (or can't afford one), but should try to find a serious amateur.


Maybe find a photography student or two to do it on the cheap? You could put up some flyers at a local college or something and try to get the photography students to bite....


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

What I think you really need is a GIANT piece of black card board that can be put on the front of the aquarium to make sure that the only light going into the camera from the aquarium lights is coming "through" the aquarium, and not from "above." I got this tip from the CAU site and it's helped me a lot. Of course, your tank is a lot bigger so it may be difficult finding such a large piece of cardboard. :hihi:


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

Steve, I hope you didn't take offense, I think the real point I was trying to make was that the tank looks amazing...I meant really great. I know that it shows extreme depth in person, only because I know what species you have in there and how dimensional they really are....i.e. the pics do not do it justice. That is it. I know you are saying it isn't worth dealing with the photography part, but good photography makes a mediocre tank look great....all I am saying is imagine what good photography would do for yours. That's all. You have been through it all, and now you have reached a point where you should show it off properly....all I meant


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Long post - sorry*

*fresh_newwby* - No offense taken AT ALL. PROMISE. I apologize if my response made you think you I did. It was an honest, reasonable comment about how to make things better. If I can take that, I need to stop posting about my stuff!

No, the problem is this d*mn medium - writing. We type stuff away, and the readers can't tell if we are smiling, fuming, or scratching our heads in confusion as we write. So misunderstandings are inevitable. A couple of days a go I PM'ed a board member, someone I consider a friend, joking about some stuff. But it wasn't evident from my words that I was jesting. He thought I was angry at him! Darn! No, the written word can be tricky, and sometimes it doesn't get read in the same spirit that you wrote it. Sorry if I gave any impression than this - Thanks! Good comment, good point, and I appreciate it!

And thanks for the clarification (which was really a compliment!).


*Brilliant *- Thanks. My wife likes it better with fish too. She's been putting up with this hobby for a few years now, repeating one patient refrain - "_When are you going to get some colorful fish? Ones big enough to see?_" Now she's a bit happier - thank goodness!


*RoseHawke *- Thanks for the ASA tip Cindy. I have tried that in the past, but I noticed that in lower light (indoors w/no flash) that it introduced a lot of digital artifacts into the pic - noise in the image. But I gotta tell you, your pics look GREAT. Outstanding pics Cindy!:thumbsup: 

I've been using ASA 100 ever since I discovered the "noise" problem with digital cameras - but if you took that at 400, then I've got to go back and try it again. Maybe my problems were with my prior (1st generation) digital camera. Thanks for the great tip!


*Blueram *- I assume Connecticut is not "in the area". Bummer. Thanks for the point about the AGA FAQ. But the truth is, IMO, that while they intend for this to not be a photography contest, it is impossible for photography not to play a large part. I do not mean to impugn the integrity of the judges, I'm sure they are playing by the rules as much as human nature will allow. But I know that photography can bridge the gap from a "_ho-hum_" response to "_Wow_"! It's visceral, not intellectual. And that aspect of human nature will have to have some measure of influence over how the judges perceive a tank. How can it not?


*jasonh *- That's a GREAT idea! Thanks! There are a number of universities and junior colleges in the area. Maybe a few notices on bulletin boards, and an offer of $50 might get me some outstanding pics from a photography student! Thanks for sharing that. I do believe I will do that!


*greenmiddlefinger *- Did you know that I _actually have _a giant piece of black cardboard Steven? Actually it's better, it's black foam-core board - very rigid. I'll just tape it to the top edge of the tank to block out all the glare from the Tek light. Thanks! That is easy. I'll do it and report the results.



*POINT OF CLARITY ON THE PICS*
Just so you know, even though the fish did let me trim a bit, I did not go all out on the contest this year. To repeat myself - the tank and the fish are not ready - my entry is just to support the contest.

Next year, on the other hand, is a different story (Yes, I've said that before). After the agony I went through with that last tank, and the time pressure I put myself under when I was building it, I decided that I WAS NOT going to set my sights on this year's contest. If it made it, fine. But this tank was going to be done slowly and deliberately. My one objective this year is success - getting a new tank successfully on its feet. I've almost done that.

The culmination of my artistic aspirations will take a bit more time - in time for the AGA 2007 I hope.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Just a few more pics...*

Since I spent so much time yakking in my last post, and since this is supposed to be a photo thread, here's a few more "AGA Reject" pics. Just more of the same stuff really...


Don't click it unless you want a big one! And BTW, if you are using Internet Explorer, the big one won't be much bigger. It shrinks the photos. If you use something like Firefox though, you can zoom in on the detail.


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## StUk_In_AfRiKa (Jan 30, 2005)

The tank and discus are lookin' great Steve!


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

awsome pictures!

a few comments/Questions.

first of all, are those simaltens aka green neons starting to get their red stripe? in the second of the new reject pics it looks like a few of them are... or did u add cardinals also?

in the bottom left hand corner what did you end up adding as the devider? is that slate, a plastic? or a coaster?:hihi: lol just kidding on the coaster..

and i have to say the plants are amazing looking. the anubis has no algea! must be one of the only tanks in the hobby... lol.

all in all the tank is stunning in the pics and in real life i bet i could look into it for days... lol..

great job!

- fish newb -


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

Steve:

While I was uploading my pics to the AGA site I knoticed that the format (or compression?) changed. Now in all of your posts you seem to shoot at the highest quality you can (a good thing) but these pictures are always scaled down and compressed for "web viewing" anyways. In you past comments this leads to a little Jeckle and Hyde (ie the one here looks great, but if you open the large picture and REALLY zoom in...). Perhapse the image details as to Max viewing size, resolution should also be on the AGA FAQ. And a happy emotocon  

I hope you tank places well.


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## Alight (Dec 10, 2005)

Similar to the above question. Are those Cardinal Tetras? I hope so, as they really to quite well at Discus water temps, while neons don't do so well.

OK, now that I know you have Cardinals??? try the 5,000 or 5,500 K bulbs. They really do the job for Cardinal tetras. Both the blues and the reds will be maxed out. The 6,700 and 10 k bulbs really wash out the reds in Cardinals.

I really do envy you the lack of algae. If only I could come up with results like that. Makes be want to tear down my set up, sterilize and start over. Just might do that if I can ever get the energy and time to do it.

Nice photos--I believe they'd look better if you had some really bright 5,000 K bulbs over the tank. I wouldn't use them permanently though. Only for the photos.

Oh, yeah, about Discus--if you give them a place to hide, they will. If you don't they won't. 

I know of no way to reverse that. They also seem to find a favorite corner in a planted tank, where everyone wants to be, even if there is tons of other tank space, and they really hate each other. When they get to spawning age, that corner becomes the favorite site for the pair, and only they are allowed near it.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*quick response...*

I just noticed most of the recent posters are on-line, so let me get back quick, and then I'm off to dinner...

Those are NOT cardinals. They are Paracheirodon simulans - Green Neon Tetras. I don't know about how they do in "warm" water, but I've got them in 81 degreed (F) water. They seem very healthy. I bought 65, and have not seen a single death in the three weeks that I've had them. The red you see is, I gather an artifact of age in the species. They either get a touch of it as they age, or the other way around - I can't remember.:redface: 

As for the algae on the anubias. It IS there. But you have to look REAL hard. I had an outbreak when I was on vacation, and the tanks was maybe a month old. I'm still not positive why it happened, but I trimmed off around 35 leaves (total) over two trimmings - first the worst (25), then the remnants (10) a few weeks later. Everything else is pretty much algae free EXCEPT the petite nana, which also got it while I was away. But it has so few leaves (and is SOOO expensive) that I haven't trimmed it yet.

New AGA compression requirement Blueram? I missed that. :icon_eek: I hope my pics met the requirement! I just shot at my highest resolution and uploaded away! :hihi:


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*a bit more, after dinner...*

StUk_In_AfRiKa - Thanks pal! I'm tickled pink myself!

Alight - sorry to have little time on the last post, much I want to respond to!

Thanks for the advice on the 5,000 or 5,500 K bulbs. While I do not have any red, I definately need color help with the blues. The single Planta bulbsI put in definately has very strong peaks in both the red and blue spectra, outside of being conducive to plant growth. I've only slotted one in because I don't want to color shock my plants. But when the fish swim under that bulb they seem to light up. So I believe I will try a few more over time.

As far at the algae, I know you have had a battle, as did I. Best of luck. I'm successful so far because I've subscribed to a philosophy that is somewhat unorthodox on this board - low light, low macros (except abundant CO2 and Potassium). Arguably the cowards way out. But it's hard to argue with success IMO.

And your advice about discus hiding in plants is not news to me, though I do appreciate the input. Dan V., of GulfCoastDiscus, was wonderfully instrumental in coaching me in my purchase decision. I put him in a really bad position too. I wanted only a very few discus, 2 or 3. He talked me through all the scenarios about how that COULD work. But he was very clear about saying that in a planted tank, discus are going to hide. Even happy discus.

So I put him in a tough spot. He had to council me to buy more. But if you know Dan, as I do now, that wasn't profit motive. He was trying to help me. So naturally he was thrilled when I decided against 3 and went with 5. And he was even happier when I decided I needed 3 more. But he did have some reservations about my not sticking to the Asian convention of lucky odd numbers. :hihi: But that's OK. I'm one of the luckiest guys I know. If odd numbers are required for good luck, then no doubt one of my 8 will jump out of the tank one night very soon.

So I have 8. And a heavily planted tank. I figure at any given moment there will be 2-6 showing. And once a pair forms, I'll have 5 or 6 showing most of the time.


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## the_noobinator (Jun 10, 2006)

*scolley* - i currently have one of your pictures as my desktop background! i've actually got compliments on it at work. don't worry - i gave you a shoutout.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

scolley said:


> New AGA compression requirement Blueram? I missed that. :icon_eek: I hope my pics met the requirement! I just shot at my highest resolution and uploaded away! :hihi:


The AGA compression to "web viewable sizes" is a fact. How this relates back to the best resolution to take pictures at is the unknown. I will ask next time I see Eric. I will try shooting at half the resolution next time to see if the results are different.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

BlueRam said:


> The AGA compression to "web viewable sizes" is a fact. How this relates back to the best resolution to take pictures at is the unknown. I will ask next time I see Eric. I will try shooting at half the resolution next time to see if the results are different.


Higher resolution really refers to PPI (pixels per inch). The gold standard is 300PPI so the file is sized to that at whatever maximum outprint "print" size you want. All the web stuff is usually resolved at 96 ppi which is fine for viewing on a computer monitor. So you size there with minimum compression to the size of picture you want to come up on the screen. Just don't expect it to look OK if sized at 96ppi and printed by a photo lab.You guys prolly know this stuff.

One other thing, a lot of folks shoot higher res than they need to. The compression is the thing to watch out for. The artifacts and jaggies come up from pictures being opened and closed and saved with numerous changes from all the compression and decompression of the JPEGs. So just save as a Tiff or PSD until you are done with any changes, then you can save as a high res JPEG so you aren't killing the lab with gigantic files... I've gotten great prints at 16x20 inch shot on 6megapixel Fine Jpegs. Its all in how it is manipulated. Of course the print has to be sized as a 16x20 inch at 300PPI. 

A 12.8 MP Camera will give you more creative cropping resolution, so that is a benefit of bigger/spendier cameras like the Nikon D2X or D200 or the Canon 5D or 1DS MarkII. But that's a whole long topic, ugh...

BTW, I might be in Conn next fall Steve. My wife is overdue for a family visit. 
I like drinking Porters:hihi:


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## jhoetzl (Feb 7, 2005)

Curare said:


> Is there any secret to getting anubias to grow faster?


Photoshop :smile:



Don't know how I missed this thread lately, but looking really good there!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

I got all the porter you want Bob! Even more if you bring your camera!:hihi:

PS - LOL - Very funny Joe! FWIW, I don't own photoshop.


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## jhoetzl (Feb 7, 2005)

Oh, if you want some more reading material to hurt your brain about PPI and resolution, you might want to have a read of these:

A Real-World Problem of Image Resolution - How to Calculate Resolution for Publishing Photos
Say No to 72 dpi

And you might want to experiment some more with the "M" or Av Modes on the A95. You aren't getting enough light into the tank with just the overheads (a common problem in aquarium photos), and I don't know if you've tried tissue paper diffusing the on-board flash, but it might get you some interesting results.


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

Are you going to comment on your dosing philosophy here, or is this a thread reserved for praise of the tank?:flick:


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

jart said:


> Are you going to comment on your dosing philosophy here, or is this a thread reserved for praise of the tank?:flick:


:hihi: That's too funny Jart! LOL!

I've got a number of posts I need to get back to... that comment however, is somewhat compelling. So...

I will spill the beans on the whole dosing thing, and why I have so little algae in my tank. (BTW - did you know that I cleaned the glass before the AGA pics, and there was nothing on it? It was spotless!) But I'm not gonna be able to spill the beans tonight. Got to get to bed.

But hopefully tomorrow night. But I'll you started now...

8 hr photoperiod. 108 watts of T5s over a 75g. CO2 from day one. Moderate (but iron free) micros after 1st month. Moderate iron later, as plants indicate needing it. No macros except Potassium (have a little N & P in my water - fish add it too).​
Here's the checklist I constructed for myself. I didn't follow it religiously, but pretty darn close. Take a looks, and will answer question (if any) tomorrow I hope.


*Once the plants are ready to be planted... *
1) DONE Figure out appropriate level of CO2 and set it (amano recs doing this after a few weeks)
2) DONE Figure out appropriate level for lights, set for 6 hours/day (not amano rec)
3) DONE put carbon in filter
4) DONE add rocks, driftwood, lay down substrate layers
5) DONE add plants
6) DONE - for first week: 5-5g water changes/day or 1 50% every other day
7) DONE - for first week: manual algae removal every other day; glass, wood, stone - suction residue
8) DONE - for firs week: slowly increase photoperiod from 6 to 7 hours / day (not amano rec)
9) DONE - use Phyton-Git heavily during 1st month
10) DONE daily look for ammonia spike. when ammonia cycles, add 50 amanos (should be added 2nd week though)
11) DONE daily look for nitrate spike, when nitrite is gone, add otto cats (should be added a bit after amanos)
12) DONE beginning 2nd week: remove all dead or withering leaves before they rot. keep this up for 2 months.
13) DONE during 2nd week: replace carbon
14) DONE during 2nd week: slowly increase photoperiod from 7 to 8 hours (not amano rec)
15) DONE Amano recommends using Brighty K for water changes to remove chlorine (and add Potassium), I'm going to add 4ppm K2SO4 instead, every 50% water change.
16) DONE in the 3rd week remove excess amanos
17) DONE in 3rd week trim the stems (if any)
18) NOT DONE (due to Discus) in 4th week water changes should be down to 50% weekly
19) DONE in 4th make sure Co2 is setup correctly (already did this first week)
20) DONE in 4th week begin light (low iron type - 1 ml squirt Green Brighty per 20L water daily) trace dosing (at least) (also potassium)
21) DONE in 5th week begin adding fish
22) IN PROGRESS at some time (maybe 4th week?) begin ECA after water change, or if leaves look pale
23) in 3rd month remove the carbon
24) Sometime after 3rd month, if tank seems solid, move to ADA Step 2 ferts OR normal Greg Watson type


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

That's a damn nice list for this lay-out Steve. Actually, I don't even have Amanos yet . . . since I knew I was working with HC I just figured it'd be too much of a pain in the ass to have them around until way later . . . It's a great schedule built on a lot of experience!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*tank start up schedule*

I can't exactly say this schedule is from experience. It is more based on what I've read, heavily leaning on ADA thinking, and my own opinions. There principles I tried to follow in this tank start up schedule are as follows.

*Tanks Startup Principles*
1) Gradual addition of light, yet still keep it low
2) Gradual increase in macros, up to constant low level
- my water has N&P in it
- fish contribute too
3) Gradual increase in micros
- iron free micro only
4) Gradual increase in iron
5) Aggressive algae removal initially
6) AS provides most of the macro needs for rooted plant (except K & C)
7) All N&P for the anubias (not rooted) are in water column, and are kept very low
8) Keep all nutrients low, but never bottom out (daily fertilization)
9) Don't introduce fish until tank is ready (algae eaters first)
10) Aggressive early water changing​
In my prior post I mentioned that what I tossed up was my loose schedule. It was what I worked up initially. This gantt chart below really shows a lot better what my plans actually were. And this chart only goes out for 16 weeks. My plan was really that at the 16 week mark, everything would be stable, with no additional changes in tank maintenance routine required. That is, until the AS has run it's course, and that will naturally require some changes in the fert schedule.

On thing this schedule does not show is the gradual addition of the iron (ECA) micros (Green Brighty Step 1), nor the Potassium (K2SO4). In all of those cases I did not begin with the doses I'm showing here. I gradually increased dosing over a week or two to ensure that I was not causing problems.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

the_noobinator said:


> *scolley* - i currently have one of your pictures as my desktop background! i've actually got compliments on it at work. don't worry - i gave you a shoutout.


Sorry to take so long to reply, but that was REALLY great compliment! Thanks!


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## mecgeorgeneo (Aug 12, 2005)

the pics look great steve. honestly i dont know what all this talk of getting a photographer is about. i think the pics look fine. sure if you zoom in on it in firefox, its blotchy. but c'mon internet resolution sucks! plus when you get a great pic, then you can say "i did it!"


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

mecgeorgeneo said:


> the pics look great steve. honestly i dont know what all this talk of getting a photographer is about. i think the pics look fine. sure if you zoom in on it in firefox, its blotchy. but c'mon internet resolution sucks! plus when you get a great pic, then you can say "i did it!"


I'd agree on that. Beyond the limitation of the gear, i think those are great pics Steve.
Borrow a buddy's camera if you must but getting a great pic on your own is something to be happy about. This hobby's great for learning stuff other than planting.

I never dreamt I'd see an excel chart on dosing! lol!


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## Stan the Man (Dec 12, 2005)

Scolley, just curious how you filter your incoming tap water? I noticed in the pics showing the hardware, that there appears to be a RO unit. Are you also using a UV unit? 

Tbe reason I'm asking is that I'm wondering whether by filtering/treating your tap water, you limit the presence of algae spores entering your aquarium water.

Thanks for posting your maintenance schedule to date. It definitely has paid off for you!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*mecgeorgeneo *- Thanks. I suppose to think the pics could look better would require seeing the tank. Don't get me wrong, this ain't god's gift to tanks or anything, but IMO it does look better than the pictures. But without actually seeing it, I suppose you will never really know. Sorry. But thanks for the comps!

*standoyo *- Hey! That was MS Project! But Excel, Project, whatever... I guess I wanted to lay it out as plainly as possible. With this, if someone cares to try, it should work for them too. And yeah, I never took up this hobby so that I would touch up my skills at close-up photography! Never entered my mind...

*Stan the Man *- I'm not sure if I can credit any algae success to filtering out spores. But for the record, it's not RO really. I just am running the tap through two filter canisters, each with a Kent 10 micron carbon block filter cartridge. That serves the dual purpose of stripping the chlorine out of my water, and filtering crap out of the water so nothing gets stuck in my solenoid (that opens and closes the flow).


*UPDATES*...
The discus are coming around, but I have experience a significant GSA algae spike on my anubias leaves.  I attribute it COMPLETELY to the extra nitrates and phosphates the fish have contributes, along with the problem of my (strongly suspected) excess feeding. I'm gonna have to get this under control. Ammonia is zero. Nitrite is zero. It's gotta be the food. But I'll get this under control soon. 

I'm also having some health scares with the fish. Nothing bad. It could even be false alarms. One fundamental problem is that I'm a discus newb, and don't know a problem from a red herring. But that two will work out soon enough.

In a nutshell, I'm going through a learning curve at the moment, and adjusting the tank as required. Nothing bad really - to be expected I suppose.

So expect more pics and good looking discus and tank in a few weeks!


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## cbennett (Oct 20, 2005)

scolley, GSA (the hard to scrub off stuff) is due to a LACK of phosphate. Trust me, got a LOT of first-hand experience with this one. Now I just dose 1- 2 mL of Fleet enema 3x a week and I'm GSA free! :thumbsup:


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

cbennett said:


> scolley, GSA (the hard to scrub off stuff) is due to a LACK of phosphate. Trust me, got a LOT of first-hand experience with this one. Now I just dose 1- 2 mL of Fleet enema 3x a week and I'm GSA free! :thumbsup:


Sorry. IMO that's a myth.

I have more GSA than ever before, now that I have plenty of nitrates and plenty of phosphates. When I had very little of either, I had almost no GSA. Thats just a simple fact. If your mileage is different, I would suggest that there is something else at play that was mitigated by your adding phosphates. 

I know what you have stated is a well respected bit of conventional wisdom. And I don't question your results - I'm sure you speak the accurate truth. But my results posted here are also accurate, and they fly in the face of that thinking. I'm not willing argue/contemplate the various reasons here other than to say that I suspect that when adding phosphates eliminates GSA, it's because there was an excess of something else that could not be entirely used until more phosphates were provided. In such a case, the GSA was not caused by a lack of phospates per se (that's putting the cart before the horse - something fed the GSA - and it wasn't a LACK of something), but from an excess of something else, like nitrates.

This entire line of thinking is a little like saying "ABS brakes reduces auto deaths". Sure, just like adding phosphates reduces GSA. But if you look at root cause, you might instead say "If you didn't drive so fast, you wouldn't need ABS brakes, and that would also reduce auto deaths". In the case of this discussion, if you didn't have an excess of something else (light, nitrates, iron, who knows... ), you would not need to add the limited phosphates to use up the excess of something else causing the GSA.

Thanks for sharing that, but I don't buy the conventional wisdom. It doesn't add up.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

scolley said:


> I have more GSA than ever before, now that I have plenty of nitrates and plenty of phosphates.


I get tons of GSA in the summer (greens up the glass every week), and very very little in the winter. It's been this way for 3 years. Even now, as Fall rolls in, the GSA starts to disappear. I currently have to scrape the glass once every few weeks.

No water/chemistry changes occur (as far as my few testkits show). 

My point, geography is a factor we rarely address. But, one I suspect plays a significant roll in the health and appearance of our tanks.

Oh yeah, and I wait with baited breath to see your AGA entry roud:.


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## yznj99 (Nov 1, 2004)

Good luck on the GSA, it always takes care of my old anubias leaves, very annoying.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Good point Ted. I think that might underscore my assertion, that there is more to this than meets the eye.

And thanks yznj99. It's not that bad. It's just a disappointment when I had almost none before. I assume it's the fish and/or food, and their contribution to higher nitrates and phosphates.

But the truth is, this has not been a stable few weeks for the tank. Other things have changed. Slowly raising my water from 80 to 83 degrees F, replacement of one 6700K bulb with a Planta bulb, and reducing my CO2 ppm from 48 to 30 ppm. All, or any, of these could be contributors. And all done to benefit the discus.


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## Alight (Dec 10, 2005)

Steve, hope your Discus are OK. Most people see things wrong, when nothing is really wrong. 

You can always PM me here, or at Simplydiscus.com if you have a question about their health, and don't want to sift through all the good and bad responses you'd get if you posted the the sickness/diseases forum over at Simply. 

My way of dealing with Discus is "first do no harm". Don't do anything until you've watched them for a bit of time to make sure something really is wrong. With fish the size you have, you always will have time to react. There is nothing that could be wrong with them that will kill them very quickly, at least nothing you could do anything about--except perhaps bloat. Bloat can be very benign if treated quickly, but can kill a fish if you wait even a few hours. It's pretty obvious when you see it though. Easily treated, too.

Anyway, never panic. You'll only end up hurting your fish and killing your plants.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks Al. I'll certainly shoot you a PM in the future if Q's. At the moment I'm dealing with a few symptoms that could be nothing. Or could be external parasites:

1) White spots on the tails of a few fish, with a single salt sized white grain on the tail of one, and the pectoral fin of two fish.
2) One previously dominant and hungry fish now almost black, and hiding most of the time.
3) Periodic shivering of several fish.

All of these things can have good explanations not worth belaboring here. Or it could be parasites they encountered when they mixed with the tetras and plants in my tank (and stressed from the shipping and new digs). Other than that they are eating like pigs and out and in my face most of the time. I suspect things are OK.

But after consulting Dan V. of Gulf Coast Discus, and Georgiadawgger here, I decided to go ahead and run through a 1/2 strength course of Rid-Ich +, a relatively mild FMG med. Have only lost 1 oto, and the plants seem fine. And my biofilter seems fine too (judging from the lack of surface film in the tank). So as parasitic treatments go, it seems to be holding up to its relatively benign reputation.

I understand quite well that many (most?) new discus owners race headlong into probably unnecessary medications. But BELIEVE ME I did not jump into this course of action without a lot of hesitation, reflection, and consultation. Replacing 8 discus is EASY if I have to. Replacing a healthy planted tank is HARD. But after getting the assurances I needed that this Rid-Ich + is a fairly mild treatment (for FMG that is), I'm kind of happy to give the tank this one-shot "scrubbing" and get it out of the way.

Since I got the discus strict quarantine type procedures have been observed on this tank, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future:

1) no more fish
2) no more plants
3) dedicated maintenance materials (nets, pythons, etc.)

The tank and equipment was throughly sanitized before I started this aquascape. But then I introduced new plants and fish. I should have gone through a cleansing effort like this before I introduced the discus. Now it will be out of the way (if late).

Thanks for the offer of help! I'll definately give you a yell in the future!

This will be over in a few days, and I'll be posting my first shots over at Simply. I'm anxious to meet that community too! Goodness knows I've spent enough hours reading (and reading, and reading) the information available there.


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

Hey Steve, I have an honest question for you.

Why does everyone love you so much?

Seriously. Your posts get hundreds of replies. Why? No offense but I don't see anything that compelling about your tanks. They're nice, sure, but nothing I've not seen before.

And let me underscore, I am happy for you that people seem to love you like the Beatles. You are truly a rock God on this website. People seem to worship anything you come in contact with. I want to understand what it is that you do that makes people go gaa-gaa over your posts. Can you share it with us?

It's mostly a psychological quest I'm on... I want to know what it is people find so wonderful about your posts. It's not just this one as you know.. it's all of them.. they attract people by the hundreds and all of them are only interested in telling you how wonderful your aquariums are, even though your aquariums are not that amazing. I mean they are good, sure. You have made lots of progress, no doubt.. more than I have, for certain. But some of these threads seem like idol worship. Am I just totally out of line here? I suspect I am.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

A fair and humbling question Barry. But I'm not going to discuss it here. Lemme PM you...


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## organic sideburns (Dec 22, 2005)

He answers everyones questions, and responds to everyones post and ppl like that. I've been following your logs since i came here, tho I dont post much.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*A bit off topic, but putting a question to bed...*

I'm a little embarrassed by Barry's post. I don't mean he didn't ask a fair question. He did. I just have a hard time answering it in public. But just in case it might help the community in general, I'm gonna take a shot at guessing what it takes to have thread that people actually care about, since I do seem to have had one or two of those...

1) Be honest
2) Be accurate
3) Don't cover up your mistakes
4) Be thoughtful (don't rush to action or responses)
5) If humor can be slipped in, by all means DO!
6) Demonstrate original thought, even if it flies in the face of conventional wisdom, or might even (God forbid!) prove to be wrong
7) Make your mark - do something original
8) Document what you do.
9) Be passionate about the hobby
10) Be nice
11) And most important, connect with the community - the people that post! We are all in this together! No thread that I have ever had that was really popular was "my own", but was a community property. Cindy (Rosehawk) originally pointed that out I believe, and Organic Sideburns was most astute in pointing this out! Thank you.​

But that's just my list of assumptions. Still hoping we can all learn (and have fun) together... :icon_wink


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

I think this has to do with how the strongest aquascapers don't really open up to the public. They just don't-- which I personally think is really bad for them and for aquascaping.

People relate to Steve better. I once discussed a similar topic with some fellow forumers and found that there are many who feel like the top aquascapers are elitist, seclusionist, and not helpful to others. The posts by CAU are a good example of threads that everyone gagas over, but die after 1 or 2 pages because they don't go far in the discussion area (not saying CAU guys are snooty, it's mostly due to a language barrier). The threads are rated 5 but only via 1 or 2 votes. This is of course completely different from Steve's giga-byte approaching journals. XD

Most threads where you find the amazing photos at the start, you will see the same effect though, regardless of the aquascaper's English, regardless of how open the aquascaper is. In part, people are so intimidated by their level and serious competitive attitude (which even if not said is apparent in the photos) that no real discussion can be made.

Too most, Steve feels like a good aquascaper, who's human, and who actually talks to people. He doesn't try to "hide his intentions," as he has said himself a number of times. Also, because unlike the really competitive aquascaper-types, Steve's goal is more similar to that of others. Yes, he wants to compete, but he does it for fun and really he wants (and really thrills over) having a great-looking tank in his house.

The difference between a competition-oriented attitude, and that of the average forumer, certainly causes aversions. The two attitudes just don't communicate all that well.

Steve is a really great guy that everyone can relate to, and who's still willing to say stuff in his post like, "It's a dream come true, after all that struggle, I can't believe I can have a tank this great in my own house." The really competition-oriented guys almost never talk about satisfaction, and I think it's frustrating to forumers that someone could not be satisfied with the type of tanks they accomplish.

Sorry for indulging the off topic Steve, I know you really hate it. I just share this type of admiration for you and wanted to help explain it.

Here's an on-topic question then: What moss are you using? I don't think I caught which one. Doesn't look like Java, that's for sure. For a tank that I assume doesn't have really strong current, the moss looks to be really healthy!  (ok, still going a different direction from the rest of the thread but can't blame me for asking, right?)


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

I think it's all the above and most of all I feel i'm talking to the fellow in steve's avatar :hihi: He looks to be a friendly sort. Fellow primates like me can relate to that! [I'm without a suit though. kekeke.]


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

standoyo said:


> I think it's all the above and most of all I feel I'm talking to the fellow in steve's avatar :hihi: He looks to be a friendly sort. Fellow primates like me can relate to that!


I AM that guy in that picture! Or close enough for me to be really comfortable with the choice:

1) Wears a suit
2) Thinks he's cool
3) Has something to say

And the BEST part is, at the end of the day he's still ONLY A MONKEY. So the question is I suppose, _how seriously are you going to take a monkey?_ :hihi:​
*Stephen *- Thanks for the kind words buddy!

And I can tell you why some top aquascapers might seem elitist, just based on my own experience...

Say a "Planted Member", or a "Planted Tank Obsessed" board member starts up a thread that I'm interested in. They say "_I think this..._", and I post a reply, "_fair enough, but I think THAT_". I should be able to do that. That kind of communication is what this place is about, polite, honest, frank exchange so we can all learn. Well having some popular threads and a high post count can change all that. Now I find that sometimes when I disagree with someone they take it like a public smack-down, when I'll wager if a newbie had said the same exact thing they would not have cared a bit. I've got the PM's to prove it. 

So I post less in other peoples forums now. I don't like upsetting people and I don't like not saying what I think. So now more often than in the past, I chose to keep quiet.

And if you didn't know better, I could definately see this reduced participation in other threads as being "elitist" (though I'm not a top aquascaper :icon_wink ). But nothing could be farther from the truth.​

*Back on topic - Moss!*
I wish to heck I knew what that moss is. No matter what I do it grows like a weed. It doesn't like light that gets to high or it gets algae. But it clearly tolerates a wide range of temperature well (73-83). And will grow in shade and moderate light. I can't kill the stuff. It is worth noting though, that I belive (can't confirm) that this stuff really started taking off for me after I stopped atificially boosting my GH and KH, and began to leave it closer to my tap levels of KH 1.75 and GH 3.0.

I got the moss from John P., who suspected it might be Taxiphyllum alternans (Taiwan moss), but after reading a recent TAG v18 #3 moss article, I started to believe it was Vesicularia ferriei (Weeping moss).










The aforementioned TAG issue compares the dramatically similar Java, Christmas, Erect, Singapore, Taiwan, and Weeping mosses.

At the macro level, it appears similar to Java moss, and very similar to Taiwan moss. But at the microscopic level, Java moss is eliminated due to the lack of fine "teeth" along the entire length of the leaf edges, possessing instead "teeth" only near the apex.

Also at the microscopic level (I've checked) it seems to distinguishes itself as Weeping moss (as opposed to Taiwan moss) due to its lack of elongated and pointed leaf tips, possessing instead slightly more abruptly pointed tips characteristic of Weeping moss. This last call is a subtle one. But it is reinforced by having larger, and more pronounced, leaf cells than Taiwan moss. which appear to clinch any question.

So I gave a bunch of this stuff away to several mods as Vesicularia ferriei - a.k.a. Weeping moss. But I got resounding responses that it was not in fact Weeping moss. But no one knew what it was either. So it's something like Taiwan moss, but not. And something like Weeping moss. But not.

I think.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Wow! :eek5: 

10) Be nice
Something I think I have to learn. I hope your fish are doing good. You sound like you are a "Brilliant approved" keeper. LOL.


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

scolley said:


> I got the moss from John P., who suspected it might be Taxiphyllum alternans (Taiwan moss), but after reading a recent TAG v18 #3 moss article, I started to believe it was Vesicularia ferriei (Weeping moss).


Thanks for looking into it. Interesting findings. I agree--grows like a weed regardless of the rest of the flora in the tank!


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

That frond does look a lot like Java, but one can't really say with mosses unless you look at the microscopic level . . .


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

greenmiddlefinger said:


> That frond does look a lot like Java, but one can't really say with mosses unless you look at the microscopic level . . .


It seems I wasn't clear earlier... I did look at it under the microscope. And using the information in the aforementioned TAG, I came to the conclusion that it was Weeping moss. And my kids looked at it under the microscope, looked at the descriptions and pictures supplied in the TAG, and they came to the same conclusion.

And THEN I sent it to a bunch of mods, and they said it wasn't Weeping moss. Fine. I'm OK with that. Doesn't look exactly like Weeping moss at the macro level anyway. But I wish I had pics of what we saw in the microscope, because when viewed at that level, based on the info in that TAG, if it's not Weeping moss, then it's Taiwan moss.

Or maybe it just takes an expert eye...


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

It's his character, he's just like Steve Irwin. Very enthusiastic and open about what he does - it's a breath of fresh air compared to your average aquascaper and people are drawn to that.

BTW, Scolley - what sand did you use? I know you've probably repeated it numerous times already but I've been always looking for that yellow-toned sand you have?


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

Ah, yeah I just thought the moss doesn't look like weeping. I don't subscribe to TAG but I've seen the microscope photos at killies.com, and no matter what they tell me to look for, I can't tell the difference in those photos.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Raul-7 said:


> BTW, Scolley - what sand did you use?


Thank Raul. The sand is ADA Bright Sand. I ordered it from ADG. I can't say enough good things about it.

These darn discus get spooked periodically and will dart from one place to the next. And I thought I had this separation of sand and AS substrate pretty much worked out... until I got the discus. If one of those suckers is over the aquasoil and gets spooked, substrate goes flying! So until this stuff develops a harder crust on the top from age, I'm gonna be spending time cleaning AS out of that nice Bright Sand. So I bought another big bag this week.

The stuff is great. After sucking up old messed up sand, I just scoop up more in a measuring cup, submerge it in the water, and pour it where I want it. It requires no rinsing. Has no dust, no crap in it. Great stuff IMO. :thumbsup:


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

greenmiddlefinger said:


> That frond does look a lot like Java, but one can't really say with mosses unless you look at the microscopic level . . .


It doesn't grow like Java ... the fronds are much more like Taiwan or Christmas Moss (maybe that's what it is?).


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

That sand is really nice to use. The moss I find is easier to identify if growing well in clumps. Otherwise you might want to ask Mr. Ghazanfar Ghori who was the champ at guessing the mosses!


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

Just FYI John, Java is a taxiphyllum also, and given good conditions can grow into triangles.


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

looks like java under good conditions...to me


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## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

Damn Steve!!! Havent been on in awhile. Just found yer thread....

I have ta say bud that you definately dove right back into things full force!!

Discus as well?? roud: 

Tank looks great! 

By the way, ya spendin any time over at simply discus at all?

FWIW...I just set up a 75G, an headin in the same direction with discus I believe. I imagine we will be seein a bit of each other in the near future, cause ya live just up the road.

brewmaster15 (al) lives in Northford Ct, an he is one awsome Discus breeder, Mostly Wilds, be he breeds others. We might have to take a road trip to his place!! I have talked with him before, an he said "sure come on up". There arnt many people who know more about discus than he does! Maybe thats why he is the admin... Anyways shoot me a pm. Dont wanna hijack the thread on ya. Maybe we can set sumthin up...


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

John P. said:


> It doesn't grow like Java ... the fronds are much more like Taiwan or Christmas Moss (maybe that's what it is?).


I think is it Taiwan John, just like you originally told me. But I cannot explain the fact that under a microscope, it is more like Weeping. And I wish I could remember why, but I do recall that when we did the microscope probing, Weeping moss was not even in the running.

*standoyo*, *fresh_newby *- Since I got the discus I've been keeping my hands out of the tank. So I've got some big, untrimmed clumps of that moss that I'll take a pic of and you (and everyone) can take a shot at it. We can all play "Name that Moss"

*Mark *- PM sent neighbor! Thanks for the post.


*TANK UPDATE*
Should have some more pics soon. I want to wait until this course of Rid-Ich is complete. The fish are looking good though. I just don't know if it is the medicine or the 50% daily water changes I'm doing with it.

JUMPER! I'm down to 7 fish now. One jumped. At night. I suppose I should put one of those little frowny faces HERE, but I'm actually not upset about it. Don't get me wrong, I feel sorry for the fish. But I always assumed I'd have from 1 to 3 jumpers over time. Otherwise I'd have never gotten 8 fish. And now with 7 fish I'm back with the lucky odd numbers again, at least until the next jumper. :icon_eek: 

Auto-feeder! I got one of those nice little Eheims. Did you know that you HAVE to have a hood for those things - that they DO NOT attach to a rim of a tank? They should tell you that!!

Well I cut out some clear Lexan and made little corner shelf for it to sit on, so it worked out OK. But that was a nasty surprise, especially for what they cost!

It doesn't look good on an open top tank - knew it wouldn't. But I want to use it for the next 6 months or so until I can get the fish onto a morning and night feeding schedule. Right now, as large juveniles, they get more.

And you can say that you heard it here first... _an auto-feeder is a GREAT way to get discus to not hide in the weeds of a planted tank!_ Before they would mostly hide and then come out when they see me (Mr. Food). But now they hang out in front all the time because they never know when that little d*mn box is going to dump some more yummies! :hihi: I think it is hilarious. They want to hide, but they aren't willing to risk not being the first fish to the food!

I'll try to get some pics up soon.


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

Thanks Steve. 

Could you possibly post pictures of how you made the little platform for the Eheim feeder to sit on? I have the same problem with their Liquidoser and I can't find a resonable solution yet.


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## Nightshop (May 12, 2006)

I've sat down several times reviewing your thread, steve, and I have to say your care and insight for your fish and plants is very impressive! Hope the Ridich takes care of any potential problems for your fish!


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Re: the moss did you try this guy? He's the prof. PM him your picture and he'll tell you straight. 

List of Aquatic Moss. How to grow Aquatic Moss. Info on Java Moss, Christmas Moss, Taiwan Moss, Peacock Moss, Stringy Moss

Re: Barry. Man, why put a good man on the spot? 

Its simple... All those good qualities previously mentioned, and the fact that you're the first one to hand build a "clear kuhuna" a couple of times *in public* - with all that chit underneath...LOL 

Bottoms up Stevie wonder..


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Betowess *- Thanks Bob.I've been PM'ing with Barry. We're cool. It WAS an interesting question...

I've seen your list before - it's killer! Thanks for posting it. But I looked at those various mosses posted there until I'm blue in the face. And now I could not be more confused! Under the microscope the leaf tips look just like the sharp pointy tips in the Christmas moss and Singapore moss. But IMO to the naked eye, the little fronds don't look like that, but more like the Taiwan moss. I dunno. Maybe John. P. can figure it out. It's moss. It's healthy. I'm happy.


*Nightshop *- Thanks. I don't know anything about fish keeping really. I guess you just have to pay attention, and weight the various conflicting information sources with what your own observation and common sense tell you.


*Raul-7* - The platform was cut from a little 8"x10" piece of Lexan polycarbonate (0.093" thick) I got a Home Depot for 3 bucks or so. It has protective sheet of paper on one side that I drew my desired shape onto, and went at it with a hand held hacksaw. It took a workbench and an extra person to hold it, but the job was done in 5 minutes. In the pics below you can see both the Eheim feeder sitting on top of it (I can't WAIT for the fish to outgrow the need for that so I can remove it!). And on the last pic you can see it from the top, giving you an idea of the very simple shape I cut out to rest the feeder on. The black spot on the Lexan is Velcro. And you can also see where I secured it with a piece of household transparent tape to keep the whole thing from accidentally getting bumped into the tank.


*REAL QUICK PICS*
So when I was taking pics of the Lexan, I thought, "What the heck, take some candid pics of the tank." So what you are seeing is how it looks all the time now. Feeder on top, Aquasoil mixed into the gravel, and whatever. There were no preparations at all. I promised myself that if I could not just walk in the room and snap some shots within 2 minutes, they weren't really candid. These are.

Rosehawke mentioned setting my ASA higher, and I knew I had gotten problems with digital noise when I did that. So these were taken at ASA 400, vs. my normal 100. The exposure was much better - plenty of light. But the noise it introduced on this camera is evident in these pics. Glad it worked for Cindy though. Maybe next time I'll try ASA 200.






















Maybe someone can zoom in and figure out what kind of moss this is.

And BTW, AGA 2006 Aquascaping results are tomorrow! I'm not getting my hopes up for this tank, but I am looking forward to seeing the entries! I hope someone from PT makes us proud!


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## cbennett (Oct 20, 2005)

I can't answer for other people, but the reason *I* read your threads religiously are:

1. nice guy, even when he disagrees
2. posts everything, the good the bad and the leaky
3. the building of the big kahuna - who could resist that thread? everyday i logged on with baited breath, hoping today would be the day with no leaks. "Joo can do it!"
4. the real reason: video of the great kahuna sacrifice to the silicon gods! :hihi: anyone who could make that (and publicly post it) has gotta be worth a read.


beautiful pics! even if they're not crystal clear you can get a real sense of how the tank is evolving. I love the crinkly tall plant!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Wow! What a bone-head I am! I thought the contest results were tomorrow... October 11th. It's over on NOVEMBER 11th!

Duh! :icon_redf


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

greenmiddlefinger said:


> Just FYI John, Java is a taxiphyllum also, and given good conditions can grow into triangles.


Here is what-we-think-is-Taiwan-Moss in my tank a while ago:


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

Nice shot John, that definitely looks more like Taiwan than Java too. But then, those two taxiphyllums in particular do have some over-lap in their range of possible appearences. Maybe that one strand that Scolley photographed earlier that looks like Java is just particularly thin? Well, unless you know exactly what it is or have someone identify it, the whole moss identification is impossible :icon_redf


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

It's actually quite easy to differenciate taiwan and java if you have both because of the size difference in fronds and longer fronds of java moss.
Taiwan is much smaller in comparison and denser in leaf structure.

I'd take a guess yours is taiwan moss-Taxiphyllum alternans.
[hope you haven't got any SAE's!]


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

scolley said:


> Wow! What a bone-head I am! I thought the contest results were tomorrow... October 11th. It's over on NOVEMBER 11th!
> 
> Duh! :icon_redf


dang it Steve you made me get all excited for a sec!


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## JenThePlantGeek (Mar 27, 2006)

Steve, are you going to come out to San Francisco for the big announcement at the AGA convention?   If you can, it would be great to meet you!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*John P.* - Wow! Beautiful pic! Thanks. And yes indeed, I'm inclined to agree, it does look like Taiwan to me too.


*Steven* - Don't believe every thing you read! :hihi: I'm just kidding... I was excited myself!


*Jen *- Hey! That's really sweet! Thank you. I'd really love to meet you too! Really. And that doesn't even say anything about a large number of other people I'd love to meet. But I ran it by my wife last nite (you know, the $99/nite rooms if you act fast deal). But it just didn't add up, with time away from work, airfare, etc.

So I've got a good idea... why don't we BOTH come next year to the east coast conventions! Don't they alternate coasts? I'll be there. Hope you will!


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

greenmiddlefinger said:


> Ah, yeah I just thought the moss doesn't look like weeping. I don't subscribe to TAG but I've seen the microscope photos at killies.com, and no matter what they tell me to look for, I can't tell the difference in those photos.


heh it must take a real looser with a (small) moss obsession to understand whats posted there. i do somehow!

steve if you would like I'm going to be sending Loh K L who is the admin of killies.com a bunch of moss from me, if you can pay shipping from your house to mine, ill include it in the package! Loh is going to get the mosses IDed by Dr. Tan as soon as he can once he gets them. so we could have 80%+ correct ID (since you dont know where it originated from ?right?)

so let me know over pm if you want to, for the $5 for priority mail to my house it is probably worth it. but its your choice! i think it looks like tiwan moss also. but i dont keep that moss so i cant say with 100% confidence.

I think the tank looks great no matter what you say! puts mine to shame!:thumbsup: 

- Fish newb -

Ps. that offer is to anyone else also who has moss they wish to be IDed just get it to me and i will add it to the shipment. pm me and we will work out details.:thumbsup:


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Fish_Newb* - Thanks pal! I saw you had a thread about this generous offer to get moss identified. IMO that's a great service to the community. Thank you!

But you know, I'm just not worried enough about what it is to get a positive ID. It's great stuff. It grows in a wide temp range. It loves a good range of light (but not too much), and is generally real happy as long as water conditions are good. I'm happy too have it. But too lazy to pack some up, generate a label, dig up a box, and go to the mailbox for a Priority Mail mailing.

But you are only in RI. I'm in CT. PM me your address and I'd be happy to send it 1st class from my mailbox. The weather's pretty moderate right now. I'm sure it would be fine if it takes 2 days to get there - can't possibly take longer.

Lemme know. And lemme know if I need to send extra, just in case you feel compelled to keep some for "scientific study". :icon_wink Thanks!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Raok*

OK - I've not heard back from Fish_Newb. No address, no mailing. So...

I did my first major tank trim today and I got a TON of this moss, whatever it is. I'm not going to post this on the "Swap and Shop", just because I want a small way to say "Thanks!" to you guys that have been so supportive for so long.

So PM me with your address and I'll mail you some if you are interested. If I get a bunch of PM's, I'll wind up sticking it in baggies and 1st class mailing it. If I only get a few, then expect a pretty big chunk in the mail. I figure if it let it all expand out in the water, I trimmed about a basket ball's worth. We'll see how far that goes!

The tank looks GREAT IMO after the trimming. It was getting dark, shadows cast by the large anubias growing out the top and everything. Not to mention the moss that was trying to take over the edges where driftwood met sand. So my attempt today was to open up as much sand as possible, and to let in as much light in from above as I could.

I want the bottom of the tank to be brighter, and the light from above to shin through the tank more. Both of these contribute to discus that are less dark - brighter colors.

We'll see how it works!

PM me if you want "mystery moss".:icon_wink

PS - Do NOT PM me for moss if you have no way to eradiate snails. I've got some type of "not too aggressive" snail in my tank, and I'm sure the moss has got to have eggs, or snails, in it somewhere. So please don't PM me if you don't want to risk that.


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## yznj99 (Nov 1, 2004)

Scolley a few questions, how are the green neons? Did the discus teach them to school? Ignore them or eat a few of them? How are your amano shrimps? Have they got eaten yet? Is there any fast growing plants in the tank?


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Bunch Of Pics*

Well, as you might see from some of these pics

OK, I've been waiting more than a month to do a real trim in this tank, and I was able to do it last nite. And I had a bit of free time this afternoon, and I wanted to use it trying to improve my tank photography skills. I'm sure better pics can be taken, but without a detachable flash, or lights, I think this is about as good as I'm going to be able to get with my little Canon A95.

So here is a whole slew of pics. The first is the tank itself, because as you know I kind of hate looking a any tank, plant, discus or otherwise, without understanding what it looks like in it's true setting. After that are just pics of the fish. A bunch of them...

All of these pics are "clickable", as in clicking it will pull up a larger shot.

I hope you enjoy them. I know I do. (The fish I mean!)

















































The tank is a bit more crowded than I'd like. But since I've never kept discus before, and the open top, I figure it's highly possible that this population of 7 turns into a bit less crowded 6 or 5 eventually. And I can always find another home for a few of the discus if needed.

The runts (there's a couple) don't get much food, so the difference between their size (almost 4") and the bigger ones (5"+) is getting bigger all the time. If that keeps up, maybe I'll put them up for adoption. 

But for the moment, the fish seem fine. Algae is under control. And I'm just tickled pink to have this planted discus tank setup and working at last!

And finally, to answer your questions yznj99, the Amano's seem fine. Though the immediately took to hiding when I got the discus. I can't say how many there are anymore. But if you look real hard, a bunch can still be found.

The green neons do school but not all the time. If the discus are just hanging out, not moving much they spread out a bit. But once activity picks up, they shoal. And if things get really interesting (like big water changes or me trimming the tank, or a discus feeding frenzy) they school in tight formation.

And sorry, the tank has zero fast growing plants. But almost no algae... nice trick huh?:icon_wink

PS and FWIW I've put a nearly identical post out on SimplyDiscus, getting to know that community too - now that my tank is spanning two distince communities and aquarium disciplines.


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## triple red (May 27, 2005)

looks very nice....but are you happier about the look of the tank or that you dont have any more thread algae?:hihi:


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

The discus looks really nice and comfy! Orange creeping in? XXXXX bits I presume!
Tank is coming along nicely, IME anubias takes a little time to look grown in. 

When all the discus grow up to be pastry dishes, [or perhaps dinner plates? :hihi:] then what? :icon_roll


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Nice, Nice, Nice!! The tank looks so great now with that trim. I love the second photo of the Discus. We could easily take out the tank edge and smooth the sand and reflected sand into one continuous piece. Turn that into a killer pic Steve. My photoshop gal could do it 15 minutes. Diagonal Discus. Very nice comp and the tank is a gem now. Five thumbs up.:thumbsup: 

BTW, how are your Apistos doing?


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## billionzz (Jul 9, 2003)

The discus are looking great, they look like they have adjusted well to your tank. Are they only on bloodworms or have you been able to change their feed?
Dan always has some nice fish.

Bill


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*triple red* - Thanks. But I don't even think about the thread algae anymore. As far as I'm concerned that was just nature's way of claiming some of the nutrients that weren't being adequately utilized but the plants that were being slowly poisoned. Simple. And, thank goodness, history.


*standoyo *- Yeah, I think that read is Tetra Color Bits. At is also coming out just a shade more saturated than in real life. My Photoediting software seems to turn reds up just a click.

And yup, the anubias are growing slowly. But growing. I'll take a year for this tank to be lush with anubias - if ever. I do have to trim the leaves with GSA. But not many thankfully.

And as for the "dinner plates", I bought from Asian stock (rather than some nice Germans) specifically because they tend to get not quite as large. I'm hoping most of these will top out soon. But if not, I'll just give the small ones away. Want some discus?


*Betowess *- Bob, you'll have to let me know how much that gal costs! Sounds like in interesting idea!

The pair in the pick is, I suspect, actually a pair in the making. Those are the two largest (just barely) and most dominant fish. The guard the prime feeding spot together, and never chase each other off, just the other fish. At least half the time they are nose to nose or side by side. So, not being discus knowledgable, I'm assuming that they are pair bonding. Cobalts are supposed to breed pretty true, so if that happens, they should make some nice looking fry IMO!

And the Apisto's are doing GREAT! Thanks. Specifically that's an Apistgramma viejita pair, an Apistogramma borelli pair, and an Apistogramma cacatuoides pair - all in my 20g grow out tank. I've rescaped the tank so there are multiple areas of dense heave growth interspersed between small open areas. It's not that great to look at, but it creates multiple little "zones" that they claim as territory. And they don't spend all their time fighting, because each open zone (or territory) is set up so that it is difficult to see through to the other territories (and fish). So they don't see each other much, and they are all aparently pretty happy. Or at least not fighting. No eggs yet though!

And BTW "Fishhead", I think you are supposed to be showing "Guru" now! So I'm goning into my User Control Panel and setting mine back to that designation. IMO you should think about it. I know what's going on... people are being humble. And that's great IMO - it's why I changed mine - I don't think I deserve the designation. But I assume these titles were set up to give people a quick visual indication of the level of contribution of the members in question. If only the people that really feel like they are Gruru's leave the desgnation in place, we'll have very few people labeled as such, and may possibly defeat the purpose of the lablelse. So I'm putting mine back. And for the record, it means I've got 2,000 posts. No more. No less. Anything more or less than that will have to be in people's own personal (and private) judgement - as it should be. 


*billionzz *- I've been feeding frozen bloodworms lightly morning and evening, with the liquidoser feeding a few feeds of Tetra Color Bits through inbetween. TCB being the primary food source. But my wife has concented to my putting live worms in the fridge, so California Blackworms are going on the diet next week. But no more than a light bit each day, or every other day. And I've got a small bit of frozen Mysis shrimp on order, just to see if they will eat it. I'm assuming the CBW are going to be an instant success though.

Dan does aparently have nice fish! These are turning out well IMO! Hard to imagine these being his "cheap" fish! Or that's how he's priced them anyway. I suppose Cobalts just aren't as popular anymore, or maybe they are just highly available, hence lower prices. Worked out well for me anyway. How are your fish from Dan working out? Blue Diamonds I believe?


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Guru for sure, I envy you. 

I am at the point where I really need to go back and read your threads my water changing system is coming soon.

Those fish look nice and happy in your tank. I noticed the red also and standoyo beat me to it.

You have a really nice tank. I wish I could get some fish soon, looking at yours makes me happier.


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

There's definitely something about winning over shy discus till the point of them eating out of your hand. That feels great. I really love the curious wonders that are so graceful and not so graceful[when they see food]!

I just gor four tiny tots 2 inch size- virgin reds i think, some with eleven bars and their curiosity and lack of fear really bowls me over! I've got discus fever too! lol


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## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

You have ta be completely extatic Steve! From all the trial an tribulations ya went thru, looks like ya found that happy medium..Well done!!roud: 

Ricca would look sweet in the foreground ya know!:wink: hairgrass would prolly look better though. Or you can leave it like it is....I wonder what AGA would think about a nice carpet of hairgrass.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

lookin great steve. glad we all convinced you of discus.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Update*

Well, so far having discus has been an adventure! A bit more adventure than I wanted.

I've been grappling with health issues, and getting a lot of excellent help over at SimplyDiscus. I've sought the help there as my issues have not been planted tank issues per se, they've been discus health issues.

It's been a real roller coaster. First I had a bout of what appeared to be Ich. And treated it with as 7 day, 2/3 strength course of Rid-Ich+. Then I had a fish get this huge pencil-eraser sized zit looking thing on it's mouth. Apparently a very, very uncommon affliction - one not easily diagnosed.

I was lucky enough to have a genuine discus expert visit my home and conclude the most likely culprit was secondary infection from a wound - with the wound either being caused by the fish dashing into driftwood, or from the rasping the fish were getting from my otos. He was able to show me (I hadn't noticed) the marks all over the fish where my otos were munching on their slime coats.

I treated it with two 4ppm 30-45 minuted doses of Potassium Permanganate. And I've removed nearly all of my otos, and I've got my fingers crossed about the algae spread that could result because of that. What's worse, the otos were eating the excess discus food, and now they aren't. Hopefully the remaining otos and amano shrimp can keep up. It has been strongly suggested that I get some Corydoras to eat the excess food, but by tank already has too high a fish load. I'm going to take the wait and see approach to that.

Well the zit popped and promptly healed. But my health problems did not end there.

Another fish developed a number of nasty looking marks on its side. I was concerned that this could be associated with the zit, but I was counseled to assume it was from either more driftwood abrasion, or more likely, fighting.

That too has improved greatly over the last week. So things are finally looking stable with these fish.

I started with 5 good sized ones, and due to their hiding all the time, ordered 3 more from the same batch. The subsequent 3 were not as large as the first 5, since my first order got all the biggest and best fish from the batch.

One of the three smaller ones was a jumper one night, taking total to 7. But one of the other small ones was getting emaciated. It just could not get any food at all, and was constantly getting beat on. It really had no chance of eating, and was getting stunted looking and football shaped, so I euthanized it.

As a result the territorial dynamics in the tank shifted, and lots and lots of fighting broke out. I believe this gave rise to the marks on that one fish's side. But that abated within 4-5 days, and all seems well now.

I was planning on having my fert regimen shifted to its end-state by now - dosing Green Brighty Step Two + K2SO4. But I've stuck to my Green Brighty Step One + K2SO4 + ECA because I'm loathe to introduce any more changes to the tank until I'm sure this balance between discus, excess food, and reduced cleanup crew is stable. Fert schedule changes can wait.

Gee, aren't discus fun?


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## ianmoede (Oct 1, 2004)

Man, don't wanna be too critical of you, but euthanization for a sub-dominant fish? Someone local coulda taken if off your hands don't you think?


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

ianmoede said:


> Man, don't wanna be too critical of you, but euthanization for a sub-dominant fish? Someone local coulda taken if off your hands don't you think?


That's not too critical IMO. It's a fair question, and I'd rather not start a long debate on culling fish here. But the question deserves a response. 

The fish was not healthy - weeks of being food deprived at a time in its development when it needed many regular feedings each day was taking its toll. The fish was already stunted and mal-formed. For anyone to take the fish would probably have been an act of compassion vs. any actual desire to possess such a fish. It was a solid month before my next local fish club meeting where I would have had the opportunity to find a home. No pet shop would want it. And I did not think the fish would make it that long. It seemed more kind than a lingering slow death in my tank.

Those where my thoughts before I killed the fish. But I must admit that after the fish was dead, looking at the fish I was both moved and saddened at what I had done, and I regretted the decision.

While I certainly have reservations regarding my decision, I also recognize that discus keeping itself is one that promotes "unnecessary' death, either actively or passively. Almost all responsible discus breeders practice aggressive culling. Most engage in progressive culling, destroying imperfect fish as they grow and can be identified as such. Buying a discus in the US supports that process. It is an often unseen, but very large part of the hobby.

For my part, I made a decision, and I'm not particularly happy about it. But it is what occurred.


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

It is a difficult decision and brave of you to do it. I sometimes do it when it is a DLC[dead lost case]. When it's emaciated, pale and gets blown about by the slightest current. Luckily it's not what i have to do often like what a breeder does to keep strains hi-quality for example.

What did you do? I've put one in a bag and frozen it before. A whack is sometimes appropriate but thats generally not easy to do.


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## ianmoede (Oct 1, 2004)

Fair enough, i definately did not want the culling thing to blow up either, and well spoken on your part, thanks for not blowing a gasket. I guess it happens more behind the scenes especially in the heavily bred species (discus especially for their expense of growth) , than you really recognize. Although in species where you still sell a ton of culls (goldfish, bettas, pretty much any livebearer) it probably doesnt happen as much.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

standoyo said:


> What did you do? I've put one in a bag and frozen it before. A whack is sometimes appropriate but thats generally not easy to do.


Also a fair question Stan. But this one I'm not going to answer here - only because I know that the best method for euthanizing a fish is a subject of significant, and sometimes heated, debate. And I don't want to start that here.

I have done a reasonable amount of research on the topic in this, and other, forums. In the absence of a clear consensus on the best method, I've had to try to intelligently draw my own conclusions. So based on what I've read, I used the method that, as far as I can tell, is most humane and causes the least distress.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

ianmoede said:


> ...thanks for not blowing a gasket.


No problem. :smile: As long as we can talk calmly about this stuff, I'm happy to entertain it. But this subject is one that is so complex, and worthy of discussion, that I just don't want to get the subject really cranking here.

I'm not trying to hide my actions, but it is a topic that is worthy of its own thread.


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

Nice shots Steve! BTW, I didn't know the small tank was right next to this one.


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## yznj99 (Nov 1, 2004)

Scolley I am glad you are having fun with discus How often do you siphon the substrate? I heard many people keep discus in bare bottom tanks just for easy cleaning, with planted tank this can be a problem, and since you don't have any fast growers in the tank, I am sure you don't want the detritus breaks down naturally, well maybe it's not a big deal after all.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Gorgeous Steve! This is one of my all time favorite styles of aquarium and you've done a fabulous job with it. Good choice of color strain in the discus too. 

If you don't mind me asking, how much was that wood? I'm considering redoing my tank and I need a new source. If ADG is selling, I'm buying.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

scolley said:


> It has been strongly suggested that I get some Corydoras to eat the excess food, but by tank already has too high a fish load. I'm going to take the wait and see approach to that.


I have heard some folks consider Corys a zero net gain in fish load - due to their cleaning capacity...


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## ianmoede (Oct 1, 2004)

Hmmm. Theres no way that they're eating as much as the other fish are wasting. But, one or two cories are certainly not going to break the camel's back, and they would most likely make a noticeable difference. I might suggest sterbai cories, i think that they're particularly well patterned and did very well for me.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*TheOtherGeoff *- Thanks Geoff! I'm VERY glad I was convinced too! I know I sounded like I was whining a few posts back, but that's just getting some of the frustration of new discus off my chest. I'm actually thrilled, and have never enjoyed a fish more!


*bastalker *- Thanks Mark! No foreground plant's though. At least not in the foreground! That's open on purpose, to feed the discus, and to let them pick the food up a their leisure. The only rotting food in the tank is that food that DOESN'T fall on the sand. Everything that lands on the sand gets eaten. No, the sand is critical IMO.

BTW folks, I met Mark (Bastalker) yesterday - one h*ll of a nice guy BTW - over at the home of the gentleman that owns SimplyDiscus.com. Boy! Looking at that massive fishroom full of perfect specimens of discus was quite humbling frankly. But fun!


*standoyo *- Stan I've gotta agree with you about their eating out of your hand. That is way cool! But are you saying you've got 2" fish in a planted tank? If so, you are a braver man then I am! That's gonna be a lot of food floating around. I trust you will be sticking to less messy foods. Good luck!


*Brilliant *- I'm glad I can help bring you a little vicarious happiness. I'm still bummed about your fish. But figure my pics are 3-4 months into the life of the tank, so recovery is not necessarily that far off. Good luck.


*Steven_Chong* - Steve, what happened to Greenmiddlefinger? You must have made someone mad! Thanks about the shots, though I've still got some learning to do. 

That little 20g is stuck right next to the 75, and I hate that! It detracts from viewing the 75. But there is no place to put it, and it does serve a purpose as a grow-out and holding tank, that actually has some fun fish in it. But it's not much to look at. I don't try to keep it that way. Maybe I should though... now that the 75 is stabilizing, having 2 show tanks might not be so bad.


*yznj99 *- I do want the detritus to break down naturally - that's exactly right - so I never clean it. But I do clean the sand every few weeks. Things break down well enough on the sand too. But fish poop just isn't real attractive there IMO, so I'll get out a hose to siphon it off every couple of weeks.


*Phil Edwards* - Thanks Phil! But I know you are just saying that because you're so glad I failed at my attempt of a biotope! All kidding aside Phil - thanks.

The driftwood is a funny story. I bought at least 20 feet of really high quality stuff, so it wasn't cheap. Do the math. But frankly I think it could have easily cost more too - some outfits would have charged more. I may have inadvertently caused Jeff Senske a problem by saying how wonderfully he worked with me on this stuff - and he did. But it sounds like my well wishes and appreciation of Jeff's help may have backfired.

When I bought this stuff ADG advertised driftwood on their website. So I called Jeff, who to my good fortune, took a personal interest in helping me set this tank up. He didn't have any of the type of driftwood that I wanted in their store stock, so he pulled mine out of a reserved stash. So I'm still into Jeff for that favor, one I'll need to figure out how to return. Now in the interim, I'm given to understand people have read my posts and called ADG for driftwood. But apparently they don't sell it anyone. So instead of sending the Senske's business, my mentioning it is just causing a problem. Bummer. So I'm afraid what I spent is a moot question because it appears not to be available, at any price. Sorry.

And good luck in the contest Phil!


*Betowess *- Thanks for the tip on the cories Bob. I think that probably makes sense up to a point. And that point would be, as long as there is leftover food for them to scavenge. But I've as soon as you have no excess food, you need to feed them too, and you've crossed the line. And at the moment my tank is not growing algae (well not much anyway). The few remaining otos, amanos, and my biofilter all seem to be keeping the excess food in check (for now). Outside of no algae to speak of, my test kits show 0 Nitrite, 0 Ammonia. And my nitrates are testing somewhere around 8. That nitrate value is just a hair higher than my tap's 5 or 6 ppm. And the tank gets a lot of that with 50% w/c every two days. So while one could argue that between the nitrates I'm adding though water changes, and the nitrates that are an end product of the excess food, that there is more going in than the plants can keep up with - that's why the tank reading is higher than that tap. True.

But soon I'm going to be reducing the frequency of my water changes, and that reduction may reverse that trend. It seems counter intuitive - less frequent water changes decreasing your need for cleaner fish - but it's could be the high nitrates in the frequently added tap water that's adding to the net increase.

Less tap water less often might mean a net decline in nitrates, which when viewed in light of my zero amonia and nitrates, would indicate that cories are not needed. I'm still thinking about it.


*ianmoede *- thanks for the input. Please see my response to Bob above. Though I had already decided to get C. sterbai if I get cories, and if they are available when I was purchase. But it sounds like you've had them... do they really need to be in schools of 6+? I'd be much more inclined to try 2 or 3, than to get the 6 or more that many people seem to believe are needed.


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

Steve,

I asked the administration to change my username to my real name. I'd had it with a provocative username that I had made as a stupid high shooler. For a while I've been contemplating having it changed, but didn't have the guts to ask. Fortunately, the admin understood and granted my request. 

Yeah! I'm all supportive for the second-show-tank idea. XD

Since it's your "cool fish" tank, why not just make an organized for-fun-dutch/collectoris deal. It's easy, and the non-aquarium folks aren't so good at knowing the difference anyway! XD


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Phil Edwards* - Thanks Phil! But I know you are just saying that because you're so glad I failed at my attempt of a biotope! All kidding aside Phil - thanks.

Steve,

I'm sorry to hear that it didn't go well. I've pretty much fallen off the face of the aquarium earth for the past year or so. The most I've done has been to work with N. zhenkeri in my 75 in trying to figure the species out. Mostly because it's an easy plant to keep and I needed something super low maintenance. 

Alas, nothing for the contests this year or the forseeable future. As much as I love the AGA and want to support the organization I'm sick of competition and all that. When I get my tank ramped up again, and I can feel it coming, it's going to be only for myself and nobody else. To be honest though it's going to be a while in coming. My current goal is figuring out how to eradicate duckweed in a tank with a textured 3-D background. Not so easy..


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## Solstice (Jan 9, 2006)

I can't believe I read this entire thread without noticing the "new discus pics" portion of the title! When did you add that Steve? I'd like to think it was a short while ago (took me several sessions to get though the whole thing) and I just didn't notice it because it was bookmarked with the old title :tongue: 

I haven't been around for long (lurked for 7 or 8 months and only have a few posts) and I haven't started my own planted tank yet, but I've got to hand it to you Steve. You're an inspiration. I identify with you easily in that we're both IT guys and love the technology almost as much as the beauty and flora and fauna themselves. On top of that, I've PM'd you several times and always gotten a response back from you with suggestions for bulkheads and tank gadgetry. You along with the other gurus make this forum the fantastic site that it is.

So anyway, I recently got a 90 gallon tank which is currently occupied by a couple of very non-plant compatible residents, but will be starting a smaller 15 gallon experiment as a warm up to the day that I can move onto the big one. But the point of this post is, it's just an opportunity to give a very public THANK YOU for the help and for inspiring a newb to push forward and finally give a planted tank a shot. 

And of course, your tank and fish are absolutely gorgeous. :icon_lol:

~ Jon


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

scolley said:


> OK - I've not heard back from Fish_Newb. No address, no mailing. So...
> 
> I did my first major tank trim today and I got a TON of this moss, whatever it is. I'm not going to post this on the "Swap and Shop", just because I want a small way to say "Thanks!" to you guys that have been so supportive for so long.
> 
> ...


as for this moss. i recieved some spikey moss from Loh and he also surprised me with some tiwan moss, the day i had your msos, and his i seperated them and put them in mesh to grow out for the time being. as of now it deffinatly looks like tiwan and will keep a close eye on it. i'm not sure how the plants did going to singapore and hope that customs didnt destroy it 

hopefully we will know soon, i ended up sending at least a dozen moss samples from my tanks.

as for the fish, I'm sorry to hear that you had to put one down. its always a hard decision but you probably did the right thing, i would suggest getting around 5 corries for your tank, they arent much of a fish load. 

have fun!

- Andrew


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

You know I think you made a wise decision to get large fish after the tank was complete. I understand this as the best thing to do also, but I cant stand not having these fish right now.

Your tank is like the sunday and the fish the cherry on top. Sorry to hear about the grief with the fish, it seems even if you do everything perfect something still goes wrong.


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

SCOLLEY said:


> Stan I've gotta agree with you about their eating out of your hand. That is way cool! But are you saying you've got 2" fish in a planted tank? If so, you are a braver man then I am! That's gonna be a lot of food floating around. I trust you will be sticking to less messy foods. Good luck!


Cool eh? read that years ago in one of Bernd Degen's books. Considering how shy they are at first, it's like you've won them over!

I've actually got plan B so it's more like an experiment to buck the trend although I know it's gonna be quite a bit of work since feeding is manual.
I'm using a little liquid vitamin mix with some AP2 granules. The idea is to let it absorb the vitamins and let it sink so that it doesn't float around.
I also feed a chicken+pork heart mix that sinks and is eaten greedily and not as bloody.
I feed once in the morning and twice at night. WC is once a week[lazy me-it's a ~80G WC. of 120G
I've 9 discus now :bounce:

Since you use an auto feeder, i might suggest you use a white collander feeder thing that has a suction cup, cut a big hole about 2 inch in diameter and position it below the drop zone so that it collects the food drops and prevent it from floating all over. I know this means more equipment in the tank and knowing how allergic you are to that. :hihi:

Alternatively you can make a nice floating ring[or find an equivalent child's toy-or an 'O'?]. Tie with fishing line and float it under the food drop zone.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

Phil and Steve:

When the AGA results were posted I went looking for friends and was surprised to see where the biotopes ended up. This is very strange because they both start with observation of nature. However the ADA seems to be favoring "a more perfect nature" (or entirely fabricated scenes!) and the biotope "an actual place" warts and all (Steve's AGA description was quite open about the warts if I recall).

Just like the parked cars in movies are always clean and the roads are always wet which is completely unrealistic! (outside of Seattle). 

Anyways, I sad when Steve gave up on his biotope because he was trying to do REALLY hard things (native fish, big fish, native algae control, miniature water treatment plant). As it turns out Steve was doing everything right with the exception of the X-factor. Likewise I have been waiting to see how Phil's textured 3-D background works out (I use sumps which make quick work of floating plants like duckweed) so please consider posting your work anyways. 

I am still holding out hope that Steve decides to replace the 20G garden with a larger biotope in a less visible place so that we can have adventures of Mr. Piggy II etc!



Phil Edwards said:


> *Phil Edwards*
> 
> Steve,
> 
> ...


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Update and responses*

*UPDATES*

*Fish*
The discus are doing well IMO. I've removed and given way most of my otos, and their little nibble marks in the discus' slime coats are gone. They are looking really nice IMO. Plumping out, getting more blue, and stress bars disappearing. They are also getting bigger.

They hide very little now, which is great! They do spook every once in a while, but not often. And they usually don't even hide then, just a quick run to the edge of the plants, and then come right back in a few seconds, once they figure out that one of them was just being stupid.

They are animals for their food now, which is great. I can't come into the room without their coming to the front of the tank. And when I feed them they will come right up for the food - to the point that many of their dorsal fins stick up out of the water! Too cool!


*Algae*
Not much. A little on the older anubias leaves, so I just trim those off. And the lily pipes get greenish-brown over time. But the GSA on the glass is gone now. That seems to have been temporary - apparently related to the massive changes the tank was going under; big new fish load, bio filter harming medications, excess food - the whole balance thing. That has all improved for the moment, and the GSA on the glass (what very little there was) is gone.


*Disease*
I had an outbreak of something that looked like it could be the beginnings of Ich a few weeks ago. I blasted it with a week's course of Rid-Ich+ at 2/3 dosage, and all signs of it went away. In hopes that it was stress related, and that the stress level of the fish was reducing, I held off on any of the recommended follow-up courses. I didn't want to stress either the fish, the plants, or the biofilter any more than I had to. Well apparently that was a mistake.

One fish has a single salt looking grain on one pectoral fin (one of the prior symptoms that went away with during the Rid-Ich+ treatment). So I'm going to be treating for Ich again, but this time I'll be sure to do the follow up courses, especially now that I know from experience that this medication does not put too bad a stress on the plants or fish.



*RESPONSES*

*Steven_Chong* - Well Steven, I like the new name. A good change IMO. :wink: As for the 2nd show tank... I dunno. I want to spend a few low maintenance months first. Maybe if I get bored.

*Phil Edwards* - Sorry to hear you aren't in the competition Phil. But frankly, I'm not either, not in terms of being competitive - not this year. I just wasn't ready in time. Your reason is even better though, even if I do hate to hear it. So good luck with the sabbatical, and I hope you re-discover the part of planted tanks that you enjoy real soon.

*Solstice* - Thanks for the kind words Jon! Now that you're inspired, it is indeed time to give it a shot. And BTW, the first program I wrote was crap - I'm sure you can relate. But I got much better with practice. Nothing different here IMO. Good luck! Have fun! Put that creative energy to work and figure us out a cool new DIY solution!

*Fish Newb* - Have you looked at Loh's Taiwan moss through a microscope? Or mine? Externally it looks like Taiwan, but it was that microscopic inspection that made me think it might be something else. Either way though, I'll be glad to know what it is soon. It's great stuff whatever it is.

*Brilliant* - From reading your recent thread, it looks like you just could not wait for more! Well I can certainly understand. At least you are putting the little guys in a reasonably mature planted tank (as I recall). So maybe it'll take up the nutrients kicked out by that messy food. Good luck. I hope it works for you!

*standoyo* - I am indeed d*mn near _allergic _to crap in the tank Stan. I _hate _it. But your suggestions regarding methods of corralling the food are good. I'm actually trying both out now - a cone for the bloodworms, and a floating ring under the autofeeder.

My original plan was to get discus that were as large as I could afford, grow them out with multiple feedings each day, and then back off to one or two daily feedings once they were full grown. In principal that would mean removing the junk from the tank - cones, rings, feeders. I don't know if I'll get there, but I do know for now I'm stuck trying methods like this to control the food distribution in the tank. - at least until they stop growing. Thanks for the suggestions.

*BlueRam *- Sorry pal. I 'm not doing a "warts and all" tank if it can't be attractive. Frankly I don't like having my little 20g around either. But I need a grow-out tank, and there's no out of sight place to put it. Hmmmm. Maybe I DO need a 2nd show tank... but I'm out of the biotope game I'm afraid - not if I have to keep the warts.


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## m.lemay (Jul 28, 2002)

To all who have been following this thread lately and have seen the online pictures:

I saw this tank live and in person this week and WOW... it's beautiful. The Discus are nice and healthy, the green neons are a really nice compliment to the discus and the plants. Everything in this tank is pretty as a picture. As far as I'm concerned , there is no algae in this tank. The GSA that he's talking about on the old and dying anubias leaves is really just Steves psychosis talking. There are 3 old growth anubias leaves that have a few spots of GSA on them...and thats it. Clip the leaves Steve.:hihi: 

I didn't think it was possible to have such a pristine tank. 

I'll tell you what else is really impressive is the hi-techiness of this setup. This tank gives new meaning to the word Hi-tech. His lighting, fert dosing, water changes and just about anything else you can think of, is centrally controlled from his computer with home automation software and control modules plus a bunch of sensors that he has personally tinkered into the system for redundancy. He has dosing pumps which are also programmable from his computer. Water changes happen automatically. It's a fish geeks dream.

Steves attention to detail is remarkable and the tank really exhibits his career as a software logic geek. 

I've gotten to know Steve over the past couple of years and I remember his tank when it was still in the leaking stage.:tongue: 

Steve,You've come a long way baby!!!!


Marcel


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

Wow . . . thanks for the behind-the-scenes Lemey!

Oh and awesome job Steve. :hihi:

Steve psychosis . . . I love it . . . :hihi:

And to think, all that logical, geeky, no-screw-around-back-up-ing-greatness from the guy . . . 

who invented the ritual to the silicone gods . . . 

Truly awesome Steve, and if you ever to decide your bored with the software and instead start the aquarium tribal religion, I'll follow ya in.  Heck, I could go for some good-luck talismons for "snail destruction" or "fast HC growth" right now. :icon_lol:


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## yznj99 (Nov 1, 2004)

Scolley, if you don't mind, what's your nitrate and phosphate levels?


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

scolley said:


> *UPDATES*
> *Fish Newb* - Have you looked at Loh's Taiwan moss through a microscope? Or mine? Externally it looks like Taiwan, but it was that microscopic inspection that made me think it might be something else. Either way though, I'll be glad to know what it is soon. It's great stuff whatever it is.


I've been comparing early growth. I am growing them about 6 inches apart the same way and the early growth patterns are exactly the same. forgot about the microscope ID will pull out a microscope tomarrow:hihi: the Dr. should be IDing them sooner or later, Loh got them and they came great he said. its just a matter of time when the Dr. has a break to have some fun:hihi: 

Maybe there is a market for 'fish tank talismonds?' !! Helps keep snails down and BBA!! $10!

Maybe I'll make some :hihi: 

- Andrew


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

m.lemay said:


> I saw this tank live and in person this week and WOW... it's beautiful. The Discus are nice and healthy, the green neons are a really nice compliment to the discus and the plants. Everything in this tank is pretty as a picture. As far as I'm concerned , there is no algae in this tank. The GSA that he's talking about on the old and dying anubias leaves is really just Steves psychosis talking. There are 3 old growth anubias leaves that have a few spots of GSA on them...and thats it. Clip the leaves Steve.:hihi:
> 
> I didn't think it was possible to have such a pristine tank.
> 
> ...


Echo! Echo! :thumbsup: Thanks for the on-site report Marcel!

Steve, the tech behind your tank is really a plant geek's wet dream lol!
Wish I really knew how to put those little gadgets together!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

m.lemay said:


> To all who have been following this thread lately and have seen the online pictures:
> 
> I saw this tank live and in person this week and WOW... it's beautiful. The Discus are nice and healthy, the green neons are a really nice compliment to the discus and the plants. Everything in this tank is pretty as a picture. As far as I'm concerned , there is no algae in this tank. The GSA that he's talking about on the old and dying anubias leaves is really just Steves psychosis talking. There are 3 old growth anubias leaves that have a few spots of GSA on them...and thats it. Clip the leaves Steve.:hihi:
> 
> ...


You shouldn't be impressed. I had to pay Marcel to say that. 

Thanks Marcel! I think anyone would agree, things are a long way from when we first met... with us standing on my deck looking at a big DIY all glass tank - one that wouldn't even hold water! No matter how hard I tried. :hihi: That was a little obstacle that was nice to get past.


*Steven_Chong* - I've got a good luck talisman for snails - Botia striata. They are lucky:smile: for me anyway. Whenever I put one of these little good luck charms in a tank, the snails magically disappear. 

*yznj99 *- I've got a ton of Nitrate and Phosphate in my tap water, and with the tons of food these fish get, plus all the discus poop, I don't add either to the tank. I rarely test, but this morning I checked and it's testing out to about 9 ppm Nitrate, 1.2 ppm Phosphate. That phosphate number is creeping up, and I don't like it. The rate it is hitting the tank is higher than the plants can use it, which could be throttled by more water changes But I'm doing 50% every two days now until I get past this cycle of medication. Since my tap has around 0.8 ppm Phosphates, reducing water changes may actually help lower that number. Likewise inserting a bright "noon" period in my photoperiod might get the plants taking it up a bit faster. But until I get past these meds, I'm gonna keep things as they are.

*Fish Newb* - Those mosses are probably the same thing. We'll get confirmation soon. Franky, my messing up a microscopic assessment is not that far fetched. 

*standoyo* - Stan I think I've just been officially labeled a fish geek. I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with that though. I just don't know that much about fish keeping - plants and hardware maybe, but with fish I'm a serious newb.


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

lol, that's a good one Steve. :hihi:

We should make that a new common name, "lucky loaches." :icon_lol: 

I got pea puffers right now which seem to be gettin' the suckers but it seems rather slow . . . ok, I'm just impatient . . . heh heh

were there loaches in here? I don't think I noticed.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Spawn! Maybe...*

I had my first discus spawn today! Too cool! Well, sort of anyway... It could have happened last night around "lights-out" time for the tank. I wasn't around, so I can't be sure. But by wife saw this a lunch time today. 


The pics are crappy. I had to shoot something quick, as I didn't want to upset them and initiate an egg-eating session. In this first pic you can see all the curious on the left, with the proud parents on the right, guarding and blowing on their anubias leaf of eggs.



The darker fish, that I assume to be the mom, is barely visible in this shot. But the eggs are a bit more visible.



They've been doing a real good job of fanning the eggs, and taking turns chasing off the other fish. But I'll be shocked if the eggs are productive. I've got several reasons:

1) I started a round of daily Rid-Ich+ treatments a nearly a week ago, so this water has got some bad stuff in it. Can't be good for eggs. I know my crypts don't like it!

2) These fish can't be more than 8 months old. A wee bit early for a female to be laying eggs, and quite a bit early for a male to do anything about it. Or at least that's what I'm given to understand.

3) And while these two fish have been close buddies for quite a while now - in a previous post I've got a shot of these two happily nose2nose - I don't think these eggs CAN be fertilized. I don't think these two are a "_pair_" in the strictly traditional sense. I suspect they are instead... well... well, I guess you'd call them "_life partners_".​
The gentleman I bought these from said that he suspected that he sent me nothing but females. And I had the owner of SimplyDiscus over to my house a few weeks ago, and he offered his opinion that they all looked like females to him.

So, this HAS been exciting! And its real cool to see all this parenting behavior. But I don't think I'm gonna see anything come of it. Bummer. Particularly with them being such good parents and everything. :icon_frow


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

thats awesome thing to see though steve!! tank looks good from what i can tell though


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

wow talk about your ups and downs. 
from rid ich to spawning this is unreal!
Gotta love em!

watch them next time they spawn I dont think it will be such a mystery about the sex. The "life partners" thing is funny.

Is the pic "IMG_6150-fixed-smaller.jpg" ?
I would like to know if the other fish makes passes after the female makes egg trails.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Brilliant said:


> watch them next time they spawn I dont think it will be such a mystery about the sex.


Huh? Do you mean be there for the 60 minutes or so this happens in? To see the second fish pass by after the eggs are laid? That would be pretty nice timing on my part. I suspect it'll be a while before I'm lucky enough to actually witness it. But I suppose having a front row seat would clear a few things up.

But I gotta give it to them, "life partners" or not, they are really into it. In the pics you can see there are two fish that are really dark. Not just one. So either this is a male/female pair, or two female with BOTH of their hormones kicking in hard. And both are really attentive, and taking turns where required.

In fact, that's how it was first noticed. It all started with a "_Hey, didn't you say that when your fish get dark that something is wrong?_" To which I answered, "_Yeah, unless they are just camouflaging in the plants._"

And it really scared me when my wife responded "_Well you better come look, because they aren't really in the plants. But two of them are almost black, and not moving at all except for breathing really hard. I think they're dying... _".

Scared me good! I can't say how relieved I was to see the two of them fanning eggs!

And thanks Geoff!


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## esarkipato (Jul 19, 2005)

Tell them to wait until a saturday for the next spawn  I was lucky enough to see my Rams spawning on a Saturday morning....couldn't have been luckier, except they ate 'em up pretty quick.

Great pics steve....and awesome tank, as usual. Good luck with the discus eggs!


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Yes sir! You will be able to predict this happening. The female (most often) will peck at something and go all twitchy. Along with some unison arch pattern movements with both of the fish swimming upwards together as if from opposites sides of an arch then meeting at the top looking as if they side swipe each other then each returning to the opposite side of the arch. IMO it is pretty easy to see it coming.

I am more interested to see if this life partner performs the part rather then determing sex. Are these the two performing fish in this pic "IMG_6150-fixed-smaller.jpg"?


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## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

Congrats Steve!!!roud: 

You have got to be pretty excited about this for sure!! How great would that be if they got it right the first time...I see more tanks for ya!

I didn't notice if you had an RO unit. Sorry! I guess I am hoping yer gonna tell me ya dont.:wink: I know the breeders say ya need one.

Your tank is looking great also!


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## tpl*co (Nov 4, 2006)

Congratulations Steve!


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

Well, you know they're happy at least roud: !


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*No more eggs...*

Well, given the conditions of the water, it could have been good parenting. Or it could have been bad parenting. Either way one of the fish spent the day nibbling the eggs off the leaf one-by-one. :icon_frow No more eggs now.

A few of the eggs were hit by fungus (I think that is what that is) because they turned whitish. The ones that were light brown, and clear, as of this writing have almost all been eaten. It will be over soon.

I found it amusing though that the fish continued to fan the eggs, even as they were eating them. And the eggs themselves raise some questions:

1) If some of them were hit by fungus, but most weren't, does that mean that they were fertilized? If the eggs were "bad", might not all of them be hit by fungus instead of just a few?

2) There were definately black dots in the middle of the good (non-fungus) eggs. My problem is, the dots were really small. So I'm not sure if this means they were fertilized - normally it does. But it is possible that the faint dots, or dark spots, were just due to the fact that the eggs were translucent little spheres, where the empty interior looked darker just due to some sort of shadow effect when bright lights were shone on them. Anybody know?​

Thanks for all the well wishes though folks! Maybe it will happen again in a while, though I do have to do another couple of rounds of Rid-Ich+, so it will go away and actually stay away. But if they are spawning this young, I'm sure round two (or 3, or 4, or 5, or... ) is just a matter of time.



Brilliant said:


> Are these the two performing fish in this pic "IMG_6150-fixed-smaller.jpg"?


Could be. But hard to say from that pic. They are larger now and look a bit different. I can tell you though that I'm pretty sure this is the pair in this pic. Though again, this is an older shot, 30 days later they are bigger and more solid blue.


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## cbennett (Oct 20, 2005)

i've never owned discus so take this with several grains of salt. But for the other types of fish that I've been able to breed, the dots in the middle are fertilized (it's the eyes of the babies I believe that you're seeing) and the white eggs are the unfertilized. So perhaps you don't have 'life partners', maybe you have a metro male. :hihi:


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

check the eye spacing on them. the males will have the eye further back on the head. the females willhave them closer to the ridge of the head. its kinda hard to get what i mean but once you see it you definitly know what to look for.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

cbennett said:


> i've never owned discus so take this with several grains of salt. But for the other types of fish that I've been able to breed, the dots in the middle are fertilized...


Thanks. I hope you are right. That would be great! But the "dots" were REAL tiny - possibly a lighting issue. Every one that was not white had it. But it is possible that discus eggs are large enough to show a darker spot in the middle due to light reflecting off the outer membrane. I dunno. But I don't care if I have a metro sexual. Fine by me. But I'm not paying for designer plants, or any expensive "finicures". :hihi: 




TheOtherGeoff said:


> check the eye spacing on them...


Thanks for the tip - now I know about 2 dozen and one ways to tell. That sounds good, but here is what I've observed about about sexing discus already:

1) there are many methods
2) none are anywhere NEAR reliable, or else everyone would agree on that method
3) I got the fish from someone that has sold THOUSANDS of discus, and he could not tell for sure, so it must be hard. _(Though he suspected all females.)_
4) I had these fish looked at by a preeminent discus hobbyist, and biologist by trade, a few weeks ago. He couldn't tell for sure, so it must be really hard. _(But he too suspected all females - and he did not know I had been told that by the vendor. He came up with that conclusion on his own.)_
5) It seems to be one step away from voodoo, and you don't know until you KNOW.​
But I've posted the pics. If anyone can do what these two experts could not, by looking at the pics - by all means please take a shot. :wink:


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## cbennett (Oct 20, 2005)

you know what you need to do, don't you? A sacrifice to the discus fertility gods! :hihi: :tongue:


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

cbennett said:


> you know what you need to do, don't you? A sacrifice to the discus fertility gods! :hihi: :tongue:


D*mn! I hadn't thought of that. Great suggestion!

But what does one wear? And what do you sacrifice?


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## cbennett (Oct 20, 2005)

leopard thong and some oysters? 

Um... actually, if you do that DON'T post the video. :icon_mrgr


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## Petrus (Aug 15, 2003)

Amazing journal Steve. Your discus have very nice shape and color. What's your maintenance routine right now? Any increased algae growth? Really nice pictures also.. keep them coming!


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## Alight (Dec 10, 2005)

Steve, Simplydiscus.com seems to be down for the count this week.

Were you seeing the black spots after 24 hours? 48 hours? I can never seen the eye spots until at least 36 hours, and then, sometimes not for sure until 48 hours (they hatch between 50 and 60 hours). Shadows can definitely make them look like they have black dots.

Red Turqs can breed successfully at quite young ages--I've had succesfull spawns as early as 9 months old, so you're not too far away from that. 

You can tell the male from the female within an hour before spawning (sometimes more) to a few hours after spawning by looking at the breeding tubes. The female's will be larger and square like while the male's will be smaller in diameter and triangular. 

Based on finage, your fish could all be females, but I've seen males with the same fin pattern (often the male has a sharp, sometimes long trailing tip on the top-back part of his dorsal fin). I've not yet seen a female with this fin pattern, but I wouldn't be surprised if others have seen it. 

The male sometimes has a bump near the top of the forehead, but again, this is no better than the finnage patern for distinguishing.

Two females will sometimes spawn together (not that uncommon, btw). Either they can't really tell either, or homosexulality is not necessarily only a human thing.

If you really want to know if you have a fertile pair, just pull the eggs next time, and put them in a spare tank with exactly the same water parameters as your tank, and see if they really do get dark and hatch.

Your water must be less than 6 GH for fertilization and hatching. I seem to remember you were well under that, so RO is not needed.

If well fed, your Discus will spawn every 5-10 days once they get into it. They often get into a cycle where you can predict exactly the day they will spawn next (every 6 days, every 7 days, etc.). 

A water change will often precipitate a spawn if they are showing signs of spawning (picking at a plant leaf together, for example).

If you really want to raise some of these fish, get a 20 high, or 29 high tank, bare bottom. Get a flower pot, piece of tile, or glazed brick, and let them have at it without all of the other fish around. You have no chance of getting beyond the wriggler stage in a community tank, and only a pretty small chance of even getting to the wriggler stage.


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

That's right, I'm of the same experience that it's too hard to have successful spawns in a community tank. Tried a dozen times. Planted makes it even harder. BB tanks would be a better bet. Steve, can imagine if you setup a similar setup but BB, that would be a different set of mechanics to take into account won't it? Feeding and cleaning 5 times a day for babies/juvies... :lol:


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Replies and ALGAE!*

*cbennett *- If you look up either the word "obscenity" or "disgusting" in the dictionary, you can indeed see a picture of me in a thong. :hihi:I agree, that would be a bit much. But how about one of those slightly larger numbers worn by "Borat"? :hihi: 


*Petrus *- Thanks pal. My current maintenance routine is:

1) Two 14.5 gallon water changes daily (into a nominal 70g tank)
Note - my tap has about 8 ppm Nitrate, and 0.8 ppm Phosphate
... so water changing adds N and P
2) 12 drops ADA ECA (iron) daily
3) Daily adding enough of my K2SO4 stock solution to increase K by 3.5 ppm
4) 8 hours 2x54watt T-5 light - 1 6,700K bulb, 1 10,000K
5) Feeding 2 cubes frozen bloodworms twice daily (4 cubes total)
6) Feeding just enough Tetra Color bits to be consumed in 5 minutes, 3 times daily​
As for algae, I'll address that below.


*Alight *- Yeah! Where's Simply when you need 'um huh? Bad timing for me.

Clearly you understand about the "dots". I don't know when the spawn was, so my observation was either after 24 hours, or closer to 36 hours. Not sure. But I thought the dots looked more pronounced later in the day (day 2 of my being aware of the eggs) than earlier. But that could have been a trick of the lighting. And as you are clearly aware, even my perception of seeing dots at all could have been a shadow effect.

My GH is 3, and KH is 1.75, so no issues there. 

I wasn't aware about the early breeding of Red Turqs though. Thanks. And thanks for the sexing tips. But as I indicated before, I've read so many different ways to sex discus, that it is clearly fraught with uncertainty in the best of situations. And if Dan and Al could not tell, I'm just not even going to try. I know when something is beyond my observational ability - egg "dots" being one good case in point.

I increased the volume of blood worms about a week ago, and I'll wager that's what triggered this. And as for the dual-female spawning, as much as that's no fun, I'll wager that is indeed what's going on here.

Thanks for the tips on raising fish, but it is takes another tank, it ain't gonna happen. That said - everyone says raising fry is near impossible in a community tank. But they have to have a better chance in a planted community tank. And these green neons cut the discus a real wide berth. As long as any fry stayed REAL close to the parents, they might have a chance to last a little while. But ultimately, I'm sure they'd just be fish food.


*standoyo *- Why is it harder in a planted community Stan? Plants should give the fry a place to hide.

As far as the separate BB - ain't gonna happen. Not unless one of the kids wants to make a few bucks trying to raise discus. I'm not doing it - I know that for sure!



*ALGAE ALGAE ALGAE!!!!!!!*
Well I sure am glad Marcel witnessed my nearly algae free tank to bear witness to the fact. Because that fact is a thing of the past. :icon_frow 

I've got serious GSA on many of my anubias leaves, maybe 1/2. I'm talking about a lot. And my crinium (on the right side, in the open under the light) has it too! D*mn!

It all happened this week - inside of 5 days. Given that things have been SO stable (from an algae perspective) for SO long now, I've got to consider what has recently changed to determine the culprit:

1) I switched to San Fransisco Bay brand bloodworms from Hakari. SFB are messier IMO. I thought I ordered a whole box of Hakari, and SFB arrived. I had to use them since I was out of the Hakari.

2) I increased the amount from 2-3 3.5 oz cubes daily to 4 cubes every day. This also probably triggered the spawning.

3) I treated the tank for 6 days with Rid-Ich+.​
It's my guess that these three things in conjunction that caused this particularly outbreak. I used Rid-Ich+ once before, and noticed a slight increase in GSA later, but I did not feel the two events were definately related. I was willing to accept the possibility that the small amounts of GSA has been building up and that I just hadn't noticed.

But this happening again like this, I'm pretty sure it's part of the problem. Likely greatly suppressing (as in slowly killing) my bio filter or something.

And I'll wager that the increase amount of messier bloodworms just added insult to injury.

I can cut the bloodworms back to the old levels (only a 1/4 to 1/3 decrease), but now the GSA is here. The only way I can significantly reduce its presence in the tank is to cut off almost 1/2 of my anubias leaves, and cut that lovely crinium down to a nub. Bummer. :icon_frow


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

oh Steve...that really stinks!
I think it is a combination of all of it. Just trim. I know it stinks since anubias and crinium are super slow growers. How is the CO2 level? I would crank it as high up as your fish can tolerate...


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

fresh_newby said:


> oh Steve...that really stinks!
> I think it is a combination of all of it. Just trim. I know it stinks since anubias and crinium are super slow growers. How is the CO2 level? I would crank it as high up as your fish can tolerate...


Thanks Fresh. Yeah, you are exactly right. It does stink. Particularly since they are such slow growers. I think I'm just gonna have to trim back a portion of both (maybe 1/2 of the effected leaves), so maybe cut 1/2 the crinium, and a total of 1/4 of the anubias. Then set things right and after a bit of recovery, hit the other 1/2 of the crinium and 1/4 of the anubias.

Needless to say, it will have spread by then. But if I get the other problems under control, maybe not too badly.

But the BIG problem is that I had to do this round of Rid-Ich+ PRECISELY because I chose not to do a 2nd and 3rd round a bit after the first one. So what happened? Small Ich-like spots returned. 

So now I'm forced into another couple of rounds this this stuff, hopefully shorter this time (maybe 3 days instead of 6). But it's gonna hammer the tank again.

As to the CO2, it's rock solid. My KH is 1.8 (as per my Lamotte kit that I trust), and the pH floats between 6.1 and 6.2. I'll not even go into how I know that, but it is an agreement between 3 data points - a test kit, my weekly calibrated SMS 122, and my weekly calibrated hand held electronic dip tester.

But this is a CO2 ppm between 30 and 40. I suppose I could crank it. But frankly, my fish are acting so calm, so normal, and are nice and colorful, and not hiding in the plants - that I HATE to aggravate things by cranking the CO2.

Maybe I'll give it a little bump. But not much. Thanks.


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## Petrus (Aug 15, 2003)

Hi Steve,
Sorry to hear about your algae outbreak. According to the obsrvations from my discus tank, feeding them frozen bloodworms resulted in algae for me. I've gotten rampant green dust and spot algae when I feed them lots of frozen bloodworms. I think they create more ammonia and water changes just can't keep them low enough. Right now, I feed my discus almost exlcusively tetrabits, and all the bloodworm they can eat the day before my 50% water change. They have been spawning almost weekly so bloodworms aren't really needed for spawning.

Also, algae appears and grow very fast. Much faster than anubias or crinum can grow new leaves. So if you keep trimming infected leaves, sooner or later youi're going to end up with stems . 

Good luck and I look forward to following your progress!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Petrus said:


> Also, algae appears and grow very fast. Much faster than anubias or crinum can grow new leaves. So if you keep trimming infected leaves, sooner or later youi're going to end up with stems .


Ain't that the truth! Sad, but true.

Thanks for the advice. I'll wager the additional FBW, combined with this messier brand, plus the Rid-Ich+ was just too much for the tank. I'm gonna have to cut back the bloodworms. Too bad though. The fish were really seeming to be doing well on the richer diet. And fighting seemed to be reduced too. But I cannot abide the algae, so I'll make the change.

As to the amonia though, as soon as I noticed this outbreak I immediately tested my water. N - 9 ppm, P 1.1-1.2 ppm - both where I expected - no spikes. And the amonia - 0 ppm - not measurable. So I'm not sure what to say. The plants seem to have absorbed any additional amonia.

But I suspect your FBW observations are dead on, and the solution to my new problem. Thanks!

PS - Just saw your thread. Awesome tank! roud:


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## Petrus (Aug 15, 2003)

Thanks for the reply Steve. I wonder if algae is much more responsive to the change in ammonia level than test kits are. But my observations have been very consistent: whenever I load up on FBW, I get algae within a couple days. Can't tell you why though. I'm sure they're people out there who had no problems whatsoever with FBW..I'm just not one of them. Kinda like the whole "excess nutrients cause algae" issue.  
Another thing. Are you sure the FBW is more nutritious than tetrabits? Last time I checked my FBW, most of it is just water (~90%) and very little protein. Tetrabits, on the otherhand, have something like 30-40% protein. I also noticed that my discus has better color from a tetrabit diet also.

Just my 2 cents


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Petrus said:


> I wonder if algae is much more responsive to the change in ammonia level than test kits are. But my observations have been very consistent: whenever I load up on FBW, I get algae within a couple days. Can't tell you why though.


Me neither. But I would not presume to argue with your observations. Even if my test kit can't detect any amonia, that doesn't change the fact that as a planted tane person (new to discus) I look at all that food and go "_Holy crap! That's a lotta something! Poop! Uneaten food! Amonia! Something! But what ever it is, it's a LOT for a planted, no chemical-filtration, tank!_"

As for the nutrition, maybe I misspoke. I am not the person to comment on the nutrition of FBW vs. TCB. But I have observed a very definite improvement in temperament and, as far as my untrained eye can tell, general visible health of my fish, all since I reduced the TCB and increased the FBW. But that does not mean it's better for them. And as a discus newb, my observations should not count for too much either IMO.

As for color, the TCB DEFINATELY colors them up more - if you like RED that is. I'm looking for blue fish, and mine do get bluer with age. But the TCB just seems to keep pulling out that red that I'm hoping to lose.

So, problems, problems, problems. Big deal. I got discus because they are amusing and beautiful fish. All this is just fun stuff to deal with as we learn how to do this better!  

Though I must admit I would be happier without this new round of algae.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

have you ever thought about that home enima trick? since it makea a boost in potassium and makes the GSA break down? i dont know the whole details of how you should do it but i hear it works darn well.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Geoff, if I was going to do that, I'd just up the dosage of K2SO4 instead. You know of any one that has actually had this work? And can tell a credible/reliable story? I'm definately not boosting the ferts in my tank on heresay. But I'd be thrilled to see information that looked like actual "proof".


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

yeah i know what you mean. Jim, who i used to work with, did this to his 55 to get rid of the GSA. but he did put some research into it. i might try and dig up soe info on it if i can find it.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Cool. Thanks Geoff.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

congrats on the spawn never kept discus yet maybe some day. After collage:hihi: 

sorry about the delay on the moss ID things got tied up and I will do it tomarrow since I have the day off from school 

I would worry about the algea after the ICH\ICK 

Can't wait to see AGA results, I know you can't either..

- Andrew


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## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

How about lettin yer P04 creep up to around 5 ppm at least... That usually gets the GSA to give up. Just something to consider.


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

bastalker said:


> How about lettin yer P04 creep up to around 5 ppm at least... That usually gets the GSA to give up. Just something to consider.


getting back to the enima treatment...hmmmm worth a try, Steve.


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## m.lemay (Jul 28, 2002)

bastalker said:


> How about lettin yer P04 creep up to around 5 ppm at least... That usually gets the GSA to give up. Just something to consider.


Upping phosphate some will probably help but I'm not sure about 5ppm that could bring all sorts of other problems IMO. Personally, I still like to keep PO4 at a 1-10 ratio with nitrates 1-5 at most.

Marcel


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## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

m.lemay said:


> Upping phosphate some will probably help but I'm not sure about 5ppm that could bring all sorts of other problems IMO. Personally, I still like to keep PO4 at a 1-10 ratio with nitrates 1-5 at most.
> 
> Marcel


With the sufficient amount of C02? Tom Barr himself said "It doesn't matter how much extra N or P you introduce into the tank, as long as C02 is sufficient." Thats the magic word...Sufficient. In Steves tank I am pretty certain he has the C02 down...

Matter of fact he explained to me that my 80 ppm of N, an my 10 ppm of P was nothing. As long as the C02 is there, it doesn't matter what the nutrient levels are.

Now we know that high P04 will alliviate GSA, but in Steves case, what will the fish tolerate?

A level of 5 ppm would probably be ok IMO...


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## m.lemay (Jul 28, 2002)

Tom Barr has his opinions which I followed religiously for a year and a half with mixed results. After many problems, I went back to the old tried and true. Consistency is what seems to work the best for me. Keep things within a certain range and the plants adapt well. Bounce things around to much and trouble rears its ugly head. I've been doing planted tanks for 6years now, I know what works for me and what doesn't. Astronomical nutrient levels bog down growth and dirty the tank, thats what I've learned. Not to mention all the mysterious fish deaths.

Marcel


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

scolley said:


> *standoyo *- Why is it harder in a planted community Stan? Plants should give the fry a place to hide.


Ok Steve, I guess I should explain.
After the eggs hatch, the fry in the beginning are sticky[yolk sac], mum and dad can pick them up and place them in safe corner where they can guard them.
Once they become free swimming[yolk sac consumed], they swim everywhere- absolutely almost no chance for mum and dad to save them if they decide to head straight for the filter intake or any dark contrasty place especially when lights out time.
They're attracted to dark contrasty places as you've probably heard.

Once mum and dad can't find them, they are basically lost as they need to constantly feed on mum and dad's milk to survive.

I've tried to have just a pair with no other fish in a planted tank but no success. The fry would just get lost.
Here's some pix of a pair i kept 2 years ago. http://forum.discusnews.com/gallery/album65
The pair eventually spawned succesfully a batch of a hundred in a bare tank but i failed to keep them alive. :icon_frow


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## cbennett (Oct 20, 2005)

scolley, i definitely had a huge GSA problem until i started dosing extra phosphate. I use the fleet enema only because it's easier on my small tank but I have used the dry ferts too. Either way, all i know is that once i started dosing the phosphate (about 2 mL of enema 3x a week for my 60 gallon) the problem simply disappeared. It went from constantly covering the glass to me not having to wipe the glass for 6 months. No other variables were changed. Everyone's tank is different, but I'd try bumping up your phosphate target 1 or 2 ppm higher.


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

m.lemay said:


> ". . . I know what works for me and what doesn't."


And *that* is the magic phrase. It's why you see the acronym YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary) so often.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*I'm not increasing Phosphates*

Folks, I REALLY appreciate you trying to help with my GSA problem. But first let me put it in perspective...

*It ain't that bad*
I trimmed the tank this weekend. Yes, 1/2 of my Anubias leaves now have GSA on them. And do you know how many I looked at and decided that they just had to go? Seven.

My anxiety is over that fact that my tank was previously d*mn near pristine. Now it's just very, very low on algae. The only "problem" per se, is that I have algae at all now. It's still a clean tank. So...

*I'm not increasing phosphates*
I've stated my opinion on the "benefits" of adding phosphates to eliminate GSA in this tread before, and I don't really want to get into that debate. But I will lay out the essence of my beliefs with regard to high fert levels, and high ferts in this tank in particular.

1) For every person that steps up and says "These high fert levels have worked great for me", there's two or more whose tank it screwed up. They just aren't so quick to post about it. As Cindy indicated YMMV.

2) High fert levels in a relatively low light tank, like mine, is just begging for trouble. CO2 or not.

3) Plants will thrive at traditional moderate nutrient levels.

4) EI has become popular because it is almost idiot proof. It often fixes problem tanks because people bottom out of a particular nutrient without realizing it. It keeps you from bottoming nutrients, or driving a nutrient so low that it's not usable. But if you can keep from bottoming out, then EI is not necessary, and may bring no substantial benefit. Don't believe me? Mr. Amano seems to be able to produce some killer tanks without injecting his water column full of nutrients.

*And as to increasing phosphates to eliminate GSA*
1) IMO phosphates are the most potentially troublesome nutrient we use, with the possible exception of iron.

2) Adding it may help some problems sometimes (likely because there was a drastic shortage previously), but too much causes disaster frequently. 

3) Going quickly from a low level of anything to a high level is inviting trouble. As Marcel said - slow changes are the name of the game.

*Concluding*
Sorry I'm so stubborn about this. I'm afraid I've got my opinions, and in this tank I'm sticking to them. My tank has been wonderfully low in algae, and frankly still is pretty decent. So I'm not going to risk my "low light/low fert" maintenance philosophy for this tank just to get rid of what is now, merely an annoyance.

*PS *- Marcel is due to stop by tomorrow. Maybe we can get him to weigh in again with regard to how bad my problem is.


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

Sounds like a good idea since all this talk of algae still sounds like "Steve-Psychosis" to me. I bet the tank is pretty damn algae free to a normal person.

Just teasing you Steve.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Steven_Chong said:


> Just teasing you Steve.


Believe me Steve, that was a fair comment! :hihi: 


*Winning AGA - Not*
Now that the AGA Contest results have been posted, I wanted to point something out...

I know some of you must think I've been BS'ing about not anticipating any win in AGA. Now I can prove it.

Go look at my entry. See how horrible that lighting was? Do you think I would do that if I thought I had a chance? Heck no! I ripped those shots out pretty quickly. I knew the tank wasn't ready, so I just took some pics so I could get some comments from the judges - and with those comments, and the time for the tank and fish to mature - then NEXT year you'd see some nice pics!

That was the plan anyway - to get the judges comments. But it appears they aren't doing that this year. Bummer.

Either way, now that you can see the lighting in my pics, you can hopefully believe this entry was fishing for judges comments. But next year is a different story - gonna be harder now without those judges comments though. :icon_wink


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## cbennett (Oct 20, 2005)

wow, i didn't realize there were no judges' commentary this year. that was the best part, it was so educational. I hope next year they have it.


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## JenThePlantGeek (Mar 27, 2006)

I see the judge's comments... I wonder why you don't?



> "I like your layout very much. But I think your choice of white background with the white sand is too much, both for the eye and for your Discus. I don't know if it is always lit this way, or if it was just for the photos, but the Discus are clearly trying to avoid the brightness. Speaking of Discus, I think I count 7? That's an awfully heavy fish load for a tank of this size." ---Karen Randall
> 
> "I find this creation a bit too open. I believe a much better effect would have been achieved if the background had been dark since it would provide the necessary contrast to the white sand and the open layout." ---Ole Pedersen
> 
> "Your layout is good the plants are in good condition it seems that you touched up the foreground before the picture, try doing it at list a week before the picture that way the water will clear up. One comment only, your fish are beautiful, they just don't belong to your composition not the size or the species. Just picture a shoal of African tetras and some Pelvicachromis instead and you may understad my point of view. Very nice!" ---Luis Navarro


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

jen, they didnt add the judge comments til yesterday evening. i was looking at them from around 3-4:40 central time and they werent posted. i checked back in around 9:30 central and they were up.


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

for those of you who would like to see the entry click here


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## alexandre (May 11, 2005)

Hello Steve,

Your aquarium looks very nice to me. And he look quiet different, compare to what we are use to see. I have to agree about the fish load. But picking on the foreground and background colour seam a bit BS to me. I remember PJan mentioning in one of his post to choose a black background for the photo, I guess he was right.
Still enjoying reading your journal.
Best of luck for next year.


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

ok Steve, well we at least know they don't like the white background~!
Regardless of background and fish type, <bs IMO>you did a great job and we here all commend you.


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## timr (Mar 23, 2005)

Hey Steve,

Nice tank!! Beautiful fish. Glad to see it working out for you. And i'm with you on being stubborn for treating the GSA. A little GSA never killed anyone. However, what about a UV sterilizer to help with the parasites? Then maybe things will level out once the Rid Ich is gone. just a low experience thought. good luck, I can't wait to see those fish mature!


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

lumpyfunk said:


> for those of you who would like to see the entry click here


Thanks for the permalink. Every time I go hunting...

There is a button to vote popular choice at the bottom of the page...


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Well I'm glad they finally posted the comments! There seems to be some confusion around here - people seeing them and not understanding that the comments were missing for a day or so. Those of us that initially didn't see them weren't missing them - they weren't there, not have been posted yet.


*alexandre *- thanks for the kind comment. My fish load is too high for what we are "used" too seeing. But if the fish get along, and the water is clean, and teh plants are healthy - who's to say what "too high" is. That said, I have always stated that I bought more than I need or want, and am holding on to the possibility that I will be giving some of the fish away as they mature and grow larger.

And I'm completely with PJAN on his background thinking. My tank is background free - none. But I do believe it looks better with one in photos. I'm not absolutely convinced black is the best color, but it does help in photos usually. And as I stated previously, this was not a serious entry for me - the aquascape and fish were both immature. So I didn't bother with putting up a background, much less set up the best lighting for the pics.

Thanks for the feedback though!


*fresh_newby* - Thanks pal! It ain't perfect, but it still looks pretty good in the family room I think. :icon_wink 


*timr *- I run a UV about 18 hours a day, so I am using that on parasites too. But there is something external - ich like - that keeps popping up, and goes away, so I want to knock it out before it gets a chance.


*Blueram *- Thanks pal! Did you have an entry in there yourself? Do tell if so!



*
M.Lemay Visits Again*
I'm really lucky to have a Moderator living so close by! Marcel was able to come by again today and see my GSA. I'm not sure if he'll post his observations. But it's good he came by! What I thought was GSA on the edges of my Crinium, upon closer inspection looks much more like BBA!  

So it's gonna get a good trimming real soon, maybe cut off every leaf and hope for a decent rebound. Will depend on the close-up inspection. Darn! I really liked that plant too!


*Love Is In The Air*
Well, two of the fish are getting dark, snuggling up, romantically picking at a different anubias leaf, and engaging in elaborate full-body shimmying at each other. Much more out in the open this time too. Maybe they are exhibitionists to boot.

I'll try to keep an eye on them this time... see if we see any verifiable male spawning behavior. For the looks of things to day, it could be soon.


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

Wow, so it's not steve psychosis . . . :hihi: 

I think for Navarro at least, I can somewhat see where he's coming from with the fish ideas . . . since anubias is so prominant here, I can visualize how his ideas could feel more natural.

That said, and this is just my intuition talking, I don't feel that the most natural is necessarily the best-- that there's some virtue to the fish Steve picked though it makes for a more fantasy feel than strictly natural. Fantasy can be good too.

As for the background, my gut just doesn't sit well with black. If I visualize this tank with black, it's just wrong and off-- a completely different personality. Over exposed white might not be the best either (no matter how it looks for some), but black I think is not a good pick.

I actually think if you were to use Navarro's fish choices, black might work well because the overall feel of the tank would be more natural, and probably darker.

The current fish, and fantasy quality to it makes me feel like a brighter background is more harmonious with it. I could see the background with a color tint though-- not sure what color. Well, next year just get a bunch of different tints to try.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

scolley said:


> *Blueram *- Thanks pal! Did you have an entry in there yourself? Do tell if so!


This post is so hijacked I feel completely ok posting this link: :hihi: 

2006 AGA Aquascaping Contest

Things learned:
*Decided Thursday night to enter (Friday deadline)
(The tank has been going for ~ 6 months but I did a quick clean/tidy before dinner and shoot before bed...)
*Pulling a dirty sponge filter clouds the water
*Stirring up the substrate clouds the water
*Shrimp hide on the best of days
*Babies are more important than hobbies

So last year I got busted for too much stuff. This year I got busted for not being show sharp. Oh well. My private tanks are just not best-money-can-buy perfect.


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## alexandre (May 11, 2005)

Sorry Steve, I did not mean to criticise. Anyway I have question about your set up.
How do you do to have enough current in your tank? At first I thought you had a Hobby pump link to your filter to help the flow, but rereading your post I realise you don’t. I am asking that because I have a bit a similar set up (Eheim proII 2028, AM 1000 reactor, Hydor 300W and 17mm lilly pipe) and my water flow is very low in my 40G. So I was wondering how do you do it?


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Hey Steve,

Well because of the holiday I didn't have school on tuesday so I dusted off the old microscopes, and well I think you have tiwan moss. I had to stop after a while because my eyes started hurting lol. at a certain point I couldn't remember which moss came from who which for me made it obvious it is the same moss. So as for my ID I see Tiwan moss, the Dr. may see diffrent time will tell.

I personally think they where very pickey on your comments, granted I have seen better photos of your tank on the thread but even commenting on fish load? Isn't the contest about the planted scape? Not your fish? As for the backround I don't think you are going to put a black one up, but if you where thinking about it please don't make it perminent. I can't picture black looking good... Maybe a light gray or light blue or something but not black. Looking at those pictures your fish have gotten big! 

Well have fun with your algea!:flick: 

- Andrew


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Spawning - again!*

Folks, please accept my apologies for not answering your queries and comments. I'll definitely get back to you... I'm just a bit distracted at the moment. Because, as it looked like might happen, the little fishies were at it again today. Spawn number 2! Cool.



You can see one of the two parents in front, and another (the dark one to the right) chasing off an unwelcome intruder. And of course, the leaf with the light brown eggs.

I caught them today - _in flagrant e'_! roud: And it was sooo cool to watch. One would drag their ventral side over the leaf, and then move aside, gently swimming past its mate, as it in turn took it own pass over the leaf. This repeated many times.

Each pass was just fractions of an inch from the leaf. I was watching at a distance (not wanting to disturb them), and I was never able to see the actual depositing of eggs, or an emission of silt or anything. But I could see the gradual increase in the quantity of eggs. And I could tell that each of them had something protruding underneath as it passed the leaf. The one in the picture (the less desirable shaped of the two) had a larger protrusion. Does anyone know what that indicates?

So I assume I've got a mated pair. This was way too coordinated for one to be just playing along, while actually the wrong sex, just seems hard to believe. But I suppose there is still no proof. And the eggs will not last.

Nope. For as I indicated the other day, I've got a couple more rounds of Rid-Ich+ to go. And even though I knew a spawn might be imminent, I started a course of it this morning. And will follow up with more for 2 more days.

Spawning is clearly a pattern now. It'll come back. The Ich I want gone.


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## m.lemay (Jul 28, 2002)

scolley said:


> M.Lemay Visits Again[/B]
> I'm really lucky to have a Moderator living so close by! Marcel was able to come by again today and see my GSA. I'm not sure if he'll post his observations. But it's good he came by! What I thought was GSA on the edges of my Crinium, upon closer inspection looks much more like BBA!


You can also try the excel spot treatment which works real well on small areas of BBA. A little will go a long way since you don't have very much BBA at all. I should have mentioned it when I was there.

I did'nt think your fish load was excessive. But after reading the judges comments it got me to thinking that the fish load might be the root of your small but present algae problem. Ammonia is algaes best friend, and as per our discussion that day, tiny ammonia spikes, though immeasurable, could be your culprit.If you think about it, how does fish waste get converted to nitrate?? Fishkeeping 101: it starts out as ammonia then, it gets converted to nitrite befor it finally becomes nitrate. I don't think that more water changes are the answer either. Since the amount of tank space is limited, the only way that comes to mind would be to have a constant water exchange going on. In other words, bleed off the equivalent of 20% of the water thruout the day and let your auto fill keep the water level constant. Seems drastic but you have the setup to accomplish it with ease.

Marcel


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## magicmagni (Nov 7, 2003)

Cool tank Steve.

I totally relate to a lot of the things you've gone through on this tank especially with the challenges of keeping plants and these fish. If they are spawning though you are doing something right.

My fish like the Anubia leaves too! What is it with that? I don't know. THe first time my fish spawned they didn't really know what they were doing either. After a few tries your fish will get the hand of it and you should see more and more eggs each time that are viable. They will eventually hatch in about 36 hours at which time the parents will take them in their mouths and either move them or sometimes keep them in the same place. You will see these little black headed things waving their little tails.

In about maybe 3-4 days the fish will start to become free swimming. This is generally the time when they will search for the parents slimecoat, but if your tank is like mine this is when the other fish will pick them off.

I've tried to relocate the parents once to give them a chance, but no more loving feeling even after a few weeks so I put them back in the planted tank. Next day a spawn! Go figure. Enjoy your tank.

Jeff


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## Alight (Dec 10, 2005)

I think you may have a pair. I was able to blow up the pic above, and I believe you are right, that this one is the female. I can just make out enough of the breeding tube to tell.

The only way I tell male from female most of the time is by looking at the breeding tube. Larger and square (from a side view), round and straight across the bottom in 3 dimensions. The males tube is triangular from a side view, and round and diagonal across the bottom in 3 dimensions and smaller in diameter than the females.

If you get into it, do the second tank thing and see if you can raise some babies. Once you do, you'll be addicted to it!! Seeing the babies all over the adult's backs is pretty amazing.

The pair is still very young, so it wouldn't hurt to let them have a few more months in the community tank before you have them try the real thing in a separate tank.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Huh? Do you mean you were there for the 60 minutes or so this happens in?
Wow good timing...lol....anyways. Tough luck about the tank. Good thing is there are some great comments to learn from. Better luck next time. :icon_smil

Spawning Discus and ICH what a world!


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## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

Alight said:


> I think you may have a pair. I was able to blow up the pic above, and I believe you are right, that this one is the female. I can just make out enough of the breeding tube to tell.
> 
> The only way I tell male from female most of the time is by looking at the breeding tube. Larger and square (from a side view), round and straight across the bottom in 3 dimensions. The males tube is triangular from a side view, and round and diagonal across the bottom in 3 dimensions and smaller in diameter than the females.
> 
> ...


Uh huh........Like i said earlier, More tanks...LOL

Then I know ya dont really want more tanks. Would be cool though ta try an fit jus one 30G somewheres, an let em get it right.:wink:


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*No more eggs*

Lots of posts to get back to... Thanks! Will do this weekend. But first an update.

The paired fish were very diligent about taking turns guarding/aerating the eggs. I was impressed. And this morning (day 3, but only 48 hrs later) the eggs definitely had dark spots. I had a better view to the eggs this time, and the spots seemed both more pronounced than yesterday, and more clearly visible than the last spawn. So my assumption is that they were fertilized.

But the number of eggs was less this morning than yesterday, and less this afternoon than this morning. At the same time, I've seen no evidence of either fish pecking at the eggs like last time. Last spawn (first spawn) there were far more eggs that were white (fungus? not fertilized?) than now. So maybe it was more "successful" in their estimation. Who knows?

Anyway, at feeding time today I dropped in their evening bloodworms and everybody RUSHED to the feed. Except one fish that hung back. And while everybody else was chowing down, that fish rapidly chowed down on a little caviar.

I don't know which fish this was. For all I know it was a parent. But when dinner was over, there was not an egg left. Bummer.

Well, all this is certainly fascinating to observe. And hopefully it will repeat itself in a week or so.


PS - a few of you have indicating that spawning discus means something is right. Is that really an understood axiom - "spawning discus = good environment/husbandry"? Or is it possible that these fish are just horny, regardless of the tank conditions?


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

There seems to be more then one axiom surrounding the discus aquarium. 

I dunno those fish look ridden with ICH to me. I cant believe they are spawning....NOT. Which fish have ICH I must have missed this...the fish in the pics look clean, a photo of your tank was just entered into a contest. Id say your doing things right.


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## magicmagni (Nov 7, 2003)

That they are spawning is a good sign of health. It takes them a lot of effort and work for them to take care of the eggs. They wouldn't be engaging in this unless they were doing good. Sickly weak fish just can't do this.

Too bad the other fish got the eggs. As they mature they will be better parents. My pair will take turns to the feeding cone to protect the eggs, but it took a few times of trying before they made it that far.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Brilliant said:


> Id say your doing things right.





magicmagni said:


> That they are spawning is a good sign of health. It takes them a lot of effort and work for them to take care of the eggs. They wouldn't be engaging in this unless they were doing good.


Well, that's good to know. Thanks. I really didn't know because I raised guppies as a kid, generally in water that looked like pea soup. And they still reproduced LOTS. So clearly some fish species are prolific in all kinds of conditions. But apparently discus aren't. Cool. It's nice to have a kind of a built in metric of tank conditions - if discus are spawning then they are OK. Cool.

And that's especially nice considering I've got a 2nd pair getting ready now!

Now that I know what to look for, it's pretty easy to see - hanging close together (real close), darkening up, lots of mutual shimmying at each other, and mutual picking at a particular surface. 

One of the fish is definitely not one of the last pair. It's my best fish IMO, and easy to recognize. The other fish could be one of the pair that just spawned, or not. I can't tell.

Might this be the male from the pair that just spawned, hooking up with a new babe, with his old squeeze looking on? Or are they monogamous, implying that this is a totally new pair?


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## Petrus (Aug 15, 2003)

Hi Steve, my discus are definitely not monogamous. I have one male and two females, and the dude shares his time with both. Although one of the gals is his favorite, he occasionally goes out with the other and spawn with her. You should see how the two gals catfight every now and then for the male. I think he's getting a bit warn-out lately..lol..

You're definitely heading the right way. Congrats! Is the algae situation getting better?
- Poe


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

Wow Steve, Congratulations, the discus look even better than before! My how they have grown! I am no expert, but I think you have hit a home run with Kahuna's Revenge!


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

scolley said:


> And that's especially nice considering I've got a 2nd pair getting ready now!


In the terms of judging i would have to assign +1 point for "sustainability." In related news, TAG has a blurb from about this being a photocontest:

"Of course the result of the contest is decided not by the photography performance, but the layout itself. However, it is also true that judge cannot make a grading if the picture does not show the condition inside the aquarium properly."

A link to the top 10 ADA results:
ADA Aquatic Plants Layout Contest 2006 Top 10 Winners


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*If I coulda' only had it this good in college...*

I'm sorry that I haven't gotten back to everyone. Lot's of wonderful comment here that I REALLY need to get to. Just got a lot going on right now, and it's keeping me busy. I definitely will.

However, these fish are unbelievable! With this pic, please let me introduce you to the NEXT happy couple. I'm pretty sure this is not the same couple as the last two spawnings. And it's definately not the same couple that looked like they were going to go at it this weekend. In each of those other two couples, there is one uniquely identifiable fish that is not shown here - even though the tomfoolery this weekend appears to have been just some real heavy flirting.

This appears to be a brand new couple, and their small clutch of eggs!


I'll wager this is just one male making the rounds! What a life.

Assuming that the female is the one with the large dangling thing, and the male has the small one, the male is the one on the left - less dark. Doesn't he look smug. Can't say I blame him...

So, by my reckoning, this is two females that have spawned in a week. And one more that was really, really playing like she was going to this weekend. Yup, I guess the judges were right... I've got too many discus in this tank. They are clearly unhappy. :hihi:


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*My shortest post ever*

All eggs eaten by morning.  

Tank looks good.:icon_bigg 

More over holiday.


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

At least they are eating the eggs when you not watching, my Congo tetras have been spawning like mad lately and it is a swimming smorgisborg for all the other fish!


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

scolley said:


> All eggs eaten by morning.


Can you see where it's going? After a hundred times of this repeating, the novelty wears off. [jaded me!] A bit sad really but your tank looks great. better eggs on the leaves than algae!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

standoyo said:


> Can you see where it's going? After a hundred times of this repeating, the novelty wears off. [jaded me!]


Thanks. The novelty has worn off for me to some extent too, except for one very interesting dynamic going on in the tank - the continued emergence of breeding pairs. 

This last bit of info - all eggs eaten by morning - was interesting to me because it's further proof that this is a new pair, and even possibly a new male. That's because the original two spawns were watched very carefully, and attentively by both mates for two days (48 hours) before the eggs were eaten.

In this case, though I didn't report it, the male did his business and split. And the female showed scant attention to the eggs - a little but not much. So for the moment anyway, this even more poor parenting behavior is cool, because it points heavily to a new, totally unique pair.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Love And War*

Wicked busy, still need to respond to all your kind posts. Don't have time now, but an update is in order...

*Algae - bad*
I made the mistake of trying a little 2-hour noon type midday increase from 2 56w bulbs to 4 56w bulb. Now this was only 2 hours a day. And I only did it for 1 week. Well the GSA exploded. I had to try. Now I know. Will take a long time to undo this little experiment. :icon_frow 

*Fish Identification*
Well with all the spawning happening, I had to knuckle down and try to learn to tell the difference between my fish. So I've finally identified, recorded, and can recall as necessary, the various markings I need to positively ID the fish. They even have names that align to physical characteristics: Blue, Notch, Line, Football, Glasses, and Runt.

*Spawning, Spawing, Spawning*
Well Line and Football, my first pair to spawn, and the only pair that I've caught doing the lay egg, fertilize, repeat routine have spawned the third time. First two times all the eggs were eaten by day three. But now they are better at guarding them and I've got wrigglers! Not many, lot's of casualties to be sure, but they are there! Too cool. They even moved them to a "safer" place, and take turns going to the feeding cone. They do not leave the wrigglers alone.



And if that weren't enough, Blue and Notch spawned today too - right on the front glass of the tank. This is the pair that I indicated before that seemed hot and heavy, but I ultimately saw nothing more than flirting. Well one of them layed a clutch of eggs today - that's a first! I DID NOT catch them doing the fertilization hand off, so I do not know if there is a male in that pair, but I think there is... should know in a few days. But I am glad that between my new ability to tell my fish apart, and this spawn, it confirms what I thought before, there are at least two pairs, even if the sexual orientation of this pair is not yet confirmed.






And of the last two fish, Runt and Glasses, Runt shows no interest in sex. But Glasses is clearly frustrated, getting all dark, shimmying and shaking, and no one left to cha-cha with. I suspect that of the two pairs I mentioned above, one of the males had a brief spawn with Glasses a few weeks ago, but all were eaten quickly. Glasses should have been a better mom, 'cus now she's all dressed up with no one to go to the dance with.

And things have been getting FEISTY around the tank! Anyone getting out of their space is asking to get HAMMERED. I've got all that darn GSA on Anubias in there, but I am NOT sticking my hand in that tank at the moment. It's a war zone in there.  


And this pic shows something I've never seem before in this tank. A dead green neon tetra. Or rather 1/2 of a dead tetra. I don't think this is coincidence. I think this was just someone involved in a little "eat and run" and wasn't good enough at the "run" part.

If you look in the pics above, you can see the tetras hanging close by. I think I know where the eggs and wrigglers are going, and it's not the Discus. The tetras always hang about 9 inches from the eggs.

I supposed there indeed will be no babies. Not in this community planted tank. It's been interesting observing though.:wink:


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## Yzmxer99 (Aug 7, 2006)

Love the title there Scolley! I'm only at "woes" right now, declared some minor skirmishes against the algae and I hope to not have to declare "war". But if it comes to it I know which thread to go to for advice. 

I know I haven't responded to this thread before, but I have been following it. In fact it was the inspiration for putting my nano mini journal up. So thanks, keep up the good work.


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## cbennett (Oct 20, 2005)

scolley,

fantastic photos and hooray! you have at least one actual pair and perhaps more! 

Last year, Oliver Lucanus came to speak at our club and he showed some incredible video of this river in the Amazon somewhere. These big fish (some type of cichlid) had eggs they were guarding and these little tiny tetras were trying to get them every time they thought the parents weren't looking. I guess I always thought of these cute little aquarium tetras as harmless, but I could see how they were very effective predators. Makes you appreciate the dynamics that happen when we trap various fish in a small glass box. Hopefully your discus will be good parents and you'll end up with a bunch of surviving babies. *fingers crossed*


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

scolley said:


> A dead green neon tetra. Or rather 1/2 of a dead tetra. I don't think this is coincidence. I think this was just someone involved in a little "eat and run" and wasn't good enough at the "run" part.
> 
> If you look in the pics above, you can see the tetras hanging close by. I think I know where the eggs and wrigglers are going, and it's not the Discus. The tetras always hang about 9 inches from the eggs.


Revenge of the discus? hmmm. Quite a bit of drama in there. :flick:


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

steve, this fish are looking great. really showing a ton of blue and two spawns. thats awesome. and i wouldnt put it past the discus to eat a neon if it got too close. i know my biggest heckel ate a bunch of cardinals when my power went out. haha.


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## Bert H (Dec 15, 2003)

Hey Steve,

I haven't commented lately on your new saga here. But it sounds really interesting! :thumbsup: The tank is looking pretty good to me - I know, I know, it's got some algae.:wink: . Isn't it funny how when we look at our own tanks we find all kinds of deficiencies while when others look at them they look wonderful to them?

The discus look great! Sorry if I missed it earlier, but is one of your goals to successfully breed them? I would guess with as much hanky panky as they have going on there, eventually some young 'uns will survive long enough to transplant them to safer environs.

Out of curiosity, what were you trying to accomplish with the 'noon burst'? Were you seeing deficiency signs?


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## timr (Mar 23, 2005)

Steve, you need to leave well enough alone!! 

Congrats on the breeding. That's really awsome. Now you need to set up more tanks to raise the fry! But you can use store bought tanks this time if you want.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Yzmxer99 *- Thanks. And glad you got a journal going - sorry I haven't had a chance to visit it yet. But good for you for doing it! That's how we learn - from watching each other! Thanks for doing that (especially since my next project is gonna be a nano!)


*cbennett *- Predators? You better believe it. Aren't tetras related to piranhas? They certainly attack in packs. And they DO NOT get far from eggs. 

In fact, all the wigglers were gone this morning. :icon_frow And needless to say now, virtually every tetra in the tank is hanging about a foot away from this new batch of eggs. Kind of like those little chicken sized dinosaurs in Jurassic Park II. Not much individually, but in a group, they can be lethal.


*standoyo *- Never a dull moment! That's how I like it.


*TheOtherGeoff *- I thought Heckels were tetra eaters though. Or so I heard. I think these overly domesticated ones like mine just don't usually see them as food. No. I suspect this was a crime of passion.


*Bert H* - I know what you are talking about. It's the "Your tank looks great, but my tank sucks" syndrome.:hihi: 

And no, I NEVER had raising discus as on objective. My primary objective was to have a nice looking, low maintenance, planted tank. And then, if possible, with interesting fish. And then, if possible, to have discus as the primary interesting fish. Successfully breeding them was never on the radar. It would just have been cool if it were possible. Notice I'm not clipping egg-laden leaves and trying to raise them in a separate tank - too much work!

And as for the noon experiment, I had a few motivations. My Marsilea minutia just is not taking off. I suspected more light was needed. Also, my anubias were getting leggy - long stemmed. Again, more light. And my N and P levels are creeping up - not enough fert intake. Again, might be helped by more light. And finally, the discus look better in brighter light.

So it was worth a shot. And it did it for a week because I wanted unambiguous results. Well I got them - the discus looked better - the new anubias leaves were shorter - the Marsilea almost doubled in density - and the GSA had a field day. So the benefits aren't worth the downside. And I'm back to 2 bulbs all day.


*timr *- Store bought? No way pal! Where's the fun in that?


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

thats prolley true steve. haha. if only i could get the big one to eat more. hes getting skinny and doesnt look too great right now. trying beefheart to get em fat which they seem to have gotten a hang of eating


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

Steve! Great to hear that there is a male! :hihi:

I'm comfortable about the whole life-partner idea, but I just think the bond between partners is just not as beautiful as the bond between parent and wiggler. I mean . . . oh never mind. Sounds like your tank is doing great! Keep it up!


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

scolley said:


> And no, I NEVER had raising discus as on objective. My primary objective was to have a nice looking, low maintenance, planted tank. And then, if possible, with interesting fish. And then, if possible, to have discus as the primary interesting fish. Successfully breeding them was never on the radar. It would just have been cool if it were possible. Notice I'm not clipping egg-laden leaves and trying to raise them in a separate tank - too much work!


Discus are neat in that the fry feed of the parents slime coat so you do not separate the eggs. Kinda involved but breeding discus has its reward$.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

BlueRam said:


> Discus are neat in that the fry feed of the parents slime coat so you do not separate the eggs. Kinda involved but breeding discus has its reward$.


But you DO have to pull the eggs out of the tank if Tetras are gonna eat them - whether you remove the parents with them, or resort to the "artificial" parent-free methods of discus fry rearing - in a tank of hungry tetras, the eggs gotta get pulled.

And yup, the reward$ :wink: have definitely not been lost on me. Thanks. My kids desperately want to spend the time required to rear them - and then share the reward$. But I've got no place to put the big tank they'll eventually require, especially when I consider the 50% daily water changes, and regular bottom suctioning, that most people say the immature discus require.


And Steven, I've got to agree on the parental bond. Watching my primary pair so act in such perfect unison to prepare, deliver, and jealously guard their young is awesome to behold. Tossing food in the tank, watching one dash off for a bit of food, then come back and tag out with the other - repeated several times - is just a level of attention and cooperation that is just incredible to observe in a fish.


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## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

What a dilema huh Steve?? 

Your fish are looking simply amazing! And I know your tank isn't as bad as you are lettin everyone think it is...:wink: 

I am sittin here chuckling to myself, cause if I were in your shoes, I would be moving the livin room set out to the garage, an teachin my kids how an when to feed the breeders in there new 30G tanks. :hihi: 

BTW... Goin to Al's Sunday for 10 (i dunno what yet) for the 55G BB.roud:


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

Oh, I thought we were still using metaphors to make political jokes. Well I guess it's true for discus too. :hihi:


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

scolley said:


> But you DO have to pull the eggs out of the tank if Tetras are gonna eat them - whether you remove the parents with them, or resort to the "artificial" parent-free methods of discus fry rearing - in a tank of hungry tetras, the eggs gotta get pulled.


Yes, a tetra stocked community tank will not work :smile: I believe breeder pull to pair into a bare bottom breeding tank and let them lay eggs/hatch/feed etc until the fry feeding start to damage the parents at which point the fry are pulled. The degree of parental care is one of the defining characteristics of Chiclid keeping.  I have 3 day old angel free swimmers now. Very funny with the large BBS bellies. Next up, Rams!


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## the_noobinator (Jun 10, 2006)

that's really cool! i hope your kids keep up with the water changes.


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

Pressure mounting from kids... plot thickens. lol


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*I sure am having fun now! This beats the crap out of battling thread algae!*

Well Glasses finally got what she wanted (again) - a guy. Line was no longer busy and performed the requsite stud service. But I'll give him his due, he is a dutiful parent. But I can't say the same for Glasses. That little trollop laid a new clutch this afternoon, and was the first fish to the feeding cone tonight! Nobody watching the eggs!  Line, while feeding, realized Glasses left her post, and rushed back to cover for Glasses. She should have tagged out first.

I finally understand that dynamics in the tank now...

Runt - who knows? Too small (young?) to be involved. He's very well shaped, but not invited to any of the parties.
Blue - Undetermined sex, but 1/2 of the Blue/Notch egg laying pair.
Notch - Same as Blue.
Line - Male. Nice body. Not monogamous, but fertile.
Football - Female. Worst body of the bunch. But fertile. Sweet on Line. And a devoted parent.
Glasses - Definitely female. Great bod, and will do it with Line at the drop of a hat if he's not busy. Not a good parent IMO.​
There was a day this week where there were no eggs, no wigglers. But since Glasses was darking and shimming her stuff all over the tank, I figured I'd better sieze the moment to clean the tank. I was able to pull 35 of the worst GSA covered anubias leaves out. Plus some dying c. balanese leaves. But you couldn't even tell I'd touched the tank. I suppose that's a good sign... it's filling in.

The glasss it getting a very slight GSA film on it. But I'm not cleaning it. I have blamed the 7 days of my "noon" light experiment on the GSA outbreak. But I went back and checked my records (I keep wickedly detailed records!), and saw that I did a rare glass cleaning the same day I switched to the noon light schedule! So while I've assumed the GSA outbreak was due to my minor, 2 hour, daily light increase. It could have been because I scraped the GSA off the glass.

I'm gonna leave it on the glass for a week. And if I can confim that the GSA outbreak is over, I'll clean it off. In the following week, if I see no outbreak of GSA, I'll know this last bout was caused by the light increase. But if it does explode again after the cleaning, I'll know it wasn't the 2 hour noon light increase at all - but spreading all the spores around the tank from the cleaning instead.

Will know more in a couple of weeks!

*RESPONSES*

*Broken Record* - A couple of pages ago there was much talk around the AGA Contest time-frame that I haven't responded to. I will. But much of what the judges said p*ssed me off enough that I've been waiting for a calm, level head, to return before I responded to those posts. I'm feeling calmer every day...

*bastalker *- Dude. I've got a couple of spare Discus if you want them! Just let me know. One of them is a trollop though.

*Steven_Chong* - I love metaphors! Bring 'em on. Also, I noticed that you are "respected" now. Congratulations! Could not have happened to a more deserving man!

*BlueRam* - How can you not love Chiclids? I know I do. And Rams are GREAT IMO. Looking forward to pics!

*the_noobinator* - Thanks pal. My kids are willing (and begging!). But the problem is THEY ARE KIDS. So I know that if I let them start discus rearing, dad is going to be left cleaning up the mess. I've only known my kids all their lives, so maybe I'm prejudging. But I'm pretty sure that the chances of them doing daily 50% water changes, and 5X daily feedings plus bottom vacuuming will last about... oh maybe... I dunno... 15 minutes?

*standoyo *- Don't hold your breath Stan. This one is going nowhere. :icon_wink


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## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

Hey Steve...You know my position on the Discus thing.

I would love to take them off yer hands! Wait though, I think we can find a home for em!roud:


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## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

scolley said:


> *the_noobinator* - Thanks pal. My kids are willing (and begging!). But the problem is THEY ARE KIDS. So I know that if I let them start discus rearing, dad is going to be left cleaning up the mess. I've only known my kids all their lives, so maybe I'm prejudging. But I'm pretty sure that the chances of them doing daily 50% water changes, and 5X daily feedings plus bottom vacuuming will last about... oh maybe... I dunno... 15 minutes?


Never under estimate yer kids!!:icon_wink


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

:hihi: :hihi: I love their names and personalities!!! Cracking me up!!! I have decided that it is time that we start the Glasses fan club. 



> Also, I noticed that you are "respected" now. Congratulations! Could not have happened to a more deserving man!


I think I'm dense but, I don't think I understand this part. Is there like a scale or something? *confused/embaressed*


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Steven_Chong said:


> I think I'm dense but, I don't think I understand this part. Is there like a scale or something? *confused/embaressed*


It's the little "Respect" green square under your name. Let your mouse hover over it, a little thingy should pop up that says "Respected". I don't know what the scale is, but I know is starts out gray and "Not Respected" for everyone. After people use the respect options, to give you "Respect" points, it changes to green and "On Way To Respect". If you get enough points it turns into where you are "Respected". There's not a lot of those out there. Look around. It means a lot of people like what you've posted here. roud: I have no idea what cames after "Respected", if anything.

And BTW all respect points are not the same. If you are "Respected", when you give points it awards more points than normal. And since you've been a member for 2 years, any respect given by you will be even more points. And finally, when you hit "Guru wannabe" soon from your postcount, a respect point given by you will take anyone a good way toward the "Respected" level themselves.

So if you wanted to accumulate a lot a respect points, the best thing you can do, I think, is to get points from a Respected Moderator, that's been a board member for a bunch of years. Hmmm.... Gotta go. I'm gonna go find one of Momotaro's threads and try to say something intellegent. :icon_wink


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

Steve, I know this isn't a practical option, but if you can't take the Discus out of the tank, maybe you could take the tetras out of the tank :hihi:. Wouldn't that be fun, catching all those little b*ggers!

Awesome that you've got the pairs though, even though it's unlikely that any of the wrigglers will survive to actual adulthood.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Cindy, actually what I'm thinking is this...

I'm still in the first phase of the tank now - Setup phase. That is getting the fishload and plant biomass stable and balanced. Soon I'm gonna reduce the number of discus in the tank. I never wanted this many. It's a little too crowded IMO. And it will reduce the current pressure the fishload puts on the tank. I know breeding indicates the discus are happy. But they will continue to grow some, and aesthetically it could be a bit more "open" IMO. And losing two discus will free up some room, and leave me with two breeding pairs.

Next, I'll shift into "competition" phase. That is growing out the tank and shaping it up to a nice competitive appearance, which will include the Green neons (actually QUITE blue) as a counter balance to the blue discus. The tank should be in that condition for a few years. Then, the tetras will start dying off - being much shorter lived than the discus. As the population falls off, I can fish trap the longer lived hold outs and move them to m 20g.

That puts me in to the "breeding" phase where, with tetras gone, the discus can finally start a little actually fry rearing.

That is all assuming I can stand to wait a few years.


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

Thanks for the info scolley :icon_lol:

Catching . . . the . . . green . . . neons . . . *horror stricken* . . . *eye twichting*

Sounds like a task more terrifyingly difficult than than removing bba by hand. :icon_lol: 

Maybe after you do it you should sit down with Noah and have a discussion about who had more difficulty collecting all his animals. :icon_lol:


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## m.lemay (Jul 28, 2002)

Steven_Chong said:


> Thanks for the info scolley :icon_lol:
> 
> Catching . . . the . . . green . . . neons . . . *horror stricken* . . . *eye twichting*
> 
> ...


Hey Steve: Whenever your ready to get rid of that school of green neons, you got a buyer right here.:biggrin: 

Marcel


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## jt20194 (Oct 16, 2006)

Steve, love what you have accomplished with your setup. My how the hobby has changed over the years… To the point, your setup is remarkable and I know I speak for everyone on this forum that we appreciate your input to this hobby and how to make it better. Based on some comments you made on my thread about your X10, I have given it some thought and wanted to share my ideas. 

First, I don’t think there is a single solution that covers everything you want to do with X10. I believe we both agree on that. Second, by blending various applications and devices, you can achieve total control while still being able to have a more robust and stable X10 solution. Since your X10 switches send on, off or dim commands, your X10 program can sense when they have been executed, assuming that you have a transceiver like a LynX PLC-10 or equivalent. 

I am not sure whether or not your X10 program can support state flags but if it can then you could define flags for every device that you want to be sure is kept in its current state (on/off). Basically, simulating what the AquaController does to ensure that any device attached to it is properly set. Once your flags are set then you would write an X10 program that is triggered by the specific switch codes you want to control. Note that the actual X10 controller would have a different code so that it would not be directly controlled by the switches. Perhaps you could use the same unit code but a different house code so that the switch would only trigger the program not the X10 controller. The program would be triggered by any switch that you want to set a controller by. The program would reset to the start point any time it is triggered. This would ensure that any changes received during its 5 min wait loop or retransmission sequence would be halted and the proper state be executed. This would only work with X10 controllers that have an on or off state. The HCA program can easily support this type of programming should your application not be able to. Just some thoughts on the subject… I have played with X10 for sometime now and know it has a number of weaknesses. A10 is up and coming and should overcome some of the inherit X10 flaws. PM me if you want to discuss further. I have some additional thoughts but don’t think it is appropriate for this thread.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

jt20194 said:


> Steve, love what you have accomplished with your setup. My how the hobby has changed over the years… To the point, your setup is remarkable and I know I speak for everyone on this forum that we appreciate your input to this hobby and how to make it better. Based on some comments you made on my thread about your X10, I have given it some thought and wanted to share my ideas...


Thanks for those kind words. Sharing with this crew is a pleasure!

As for your well constructed thoughts about X10, I agree. But it requires a PC running something like HCA to act on this. PC's can be had cheaply these days, but one of my other major little "goals" I've set for myself (like keeping crap out of the tank, and low maintenance through automation), is keeping everything possible in the stand. And I don't see a PC going into there.

So instead I have to blame you, and your impressive setup in your thread, for a little indescretion this weekend. I went and bought an Aquacontroller Jr., with the serial port option, plus the DC8 direct connect 8-socket AC rack, and an X10 controller for it - making a total of 12 plugs, and up to 8 of them direct connect. Merry Christmas to me... Merry Christmas to me... :icon_wink 

So pretty soon I'm gonna have a lot of spare X10 modules, a really nice X10 controller, a dual-stage temperature controller, and an SMS 122, all just sitting unused on the shelf - waiting for my next big tank.


*m.lemay* - Hey, welcome back pal! But sorry, those Green (blue!) neons aren't going anywhere. Getting a whole school of them was HARD, and it cost an arm-and-a-dillo. Nah, I think the little blue things darting about make a nice contrast to the big blue things lounging about - when the big fish aren't making whoopie that is.


*Steven_Chong* - I bet I could get them with a fish trap. They are really hungry little fish, and don't appear to be smart.


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## m.lemay (Jul 28, 2002)

Hey Steve: I have my whole tank setup with X-10 now too. I hava a total of 8 modules with the Active home controller, similar to yours.

3 modules for 3 banks of lights
1 module for moonlights
2 modules for 2 seperate dosing pumps
1 module to turn on the UV at night
1 module that I haven't figured out what I'm gonna do with yet.

My tank hasn't been this stable.....ever, and it's starting to pay off in the way of happy plants and no algae.

I'm very happy with the X-10 controls. It's very cool stuff!roud: 

Marcel

BTW: I was just getting in my "dibs" in case you were serious about getting rid of the green neons. :biggrin: Those are some fabulous looking fish.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Hey don't get em wrong Marcel, I'm not knocking X10. It's got it "gotchas", but if you are aware of them, and plan around it, it works GREAT! But you have a major advantage over me - you bought all those X10 sockets. I've got modules.

With 10-12 things being controlled by X10 and/or timers, I've got too many wires terminating at one end of my tank. And all those wires go into an X10 module. And the module either plugs into a very crowded power strip, or rests in a basket and an extension cord from it plugs into that strip.

It works, but it is the tanks weak point - by bringing all the electrical to one wall, the requirement to plug everything into X10 modules down at that crowded end of the stand was bad planning on my part. And I've got too much wire down there - it's just unmanageable. Reaching into that tangle is a risk of unplugging something accidentally every time.

I'll still be using X10 with the AquaController Jr., just not as much. And it will eliminate my two-phase temp controller, which was built to withstand a nuclear war - that will eliminate a LOT of wire.

I'll still have my X10 around, but this will make the tank more manageable.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Hysteresis!!!*

Oh yeah!!!! I forgot one more REAL important reason why I went ahead and got the Aquacontroller Jr. - it controls hysteresis!

My auto-fill shutoff switch rapidly cycles between on and off when someone walks across the room when the tank is almost full. I've mentioned this before - waves on the surface, and pressure differentials from vibrations in the plumbing do this - it's a real sensitive instrument (sensitive is good - keeps water off the floor). This is the whole reason why I've not documented this little jewel so far - I've not been able to effectively fix this problem - and have wasted countless hours on it. Right now my work around is to have the fill cycles only happen late at night, when no one is walking around the room. The aquacontroller fixes this.

I can rig it up so that it is attached to my sensor, and it tanks a "Fill on / fill off" signal from the sensor. But the aquacontroller's hysteresis function allows you to set a delay between any on-to-off or off-to-on switching. So I can set it so that when it is in a fill cycle (fill sensor says Fill On), and someone walks across the room, and the fill sensor switches to Fill Off, I can set it to delay 15 seconds before it will turn on again. It is effectively just pausing the fill for a few seconds until they've walked across the room. No more noisy and annoying relay rapidly clicking on/off/on/off/on/off/on/off/on/off/on/off/on/off/on/off/on/off/on/off... 

Sorry for the long explanation. But that problem has been a pain in my b*tt. And I can't wait for this to fix it. :smile:


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

Glad you fixed it! I am sure it is not in the tank, is the pressure sensor in one of the bulkheads? (you probably already covered this about 10 pages ago) Was there a huge difference in the sensitivity of the different sensors? I completely understand the need for accuracy, I am just wondering if you are in the 6 sigma range (is that the right term?)


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

lumpyfunk said:


> Glad you fixed it! I am sure it is not in the tank, is the pressure sensor in one of the bulkheads? (you probably already covered this about 10 pages ago) Was there a huge difference in the sensitivity of the different sensors? I completely understand the need for accuracy, I am just wondering if you are in the 6 sigma range (is that the right term?)


The pressure sensor is in the stand, connected to some airline tubing that connects to a nipple on the bottom of one bulkhead. Inside the tank that bulkhead has another nipple connected to a little bit of tubing, with a bit of coarse filter foam covering the end. So the sensor below the tank "feels" the pressure of about 30" of water above it.

There is a massive difference in the accuracy of various sensors on the market. I wasted too much time and money on bad ones. And even worse, many of the otherwise accurate sensors, have a huge "deadband". That is kind of complicated to explain other than to say, once it detects a "Full" condition, it can't detect it successfully again unless you first reduce the water by 6-18" inches. In otherwords, you can't do just a little top up because once it says "I'm full", it's going to keep reporting that until some time in the future, when you've lost a lot of water, then it say's "OK, I'm definitely low on water now... I'll let you know when it gets full again". Worthless.

I'm not sure what my accuracy is, but I get to within about +/- 0.25 inches of the same spot every time I fill. I add a bit of paranoia to that by not letting the water line get within about an inch from the top. So my water is always just under, or just over, 1" from the top of the glass.

And since it's gonna be a while until I write all this up... THIS is the sensor you want, if you want to try it at home. :eek5:


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Luv and algae*

Well, my tank is nothing but one nonstop orgy these days. There is not a day that goes by without eggs on some leaf, somewhere. So far there have only been days where a single, or double set of fish are guarding eggs on any given moment. But I'm just counting the days until I see THREE sets of eggs at once. It's got to happen soon enough.

And all that's well and good. But it's KILLING my anubias. Do you have any idea how bad laying a clutch of eggs is to an anubias leaf? It's instant algae when the eggs are gone. And given the slow rate anubias grow, and the rate at which these fish are spewing eggs... it's killing my aquascape!

Experience is a great teacher, and I'm finding out that making discus so happy that they are constantly spawning, coupled with s low maintenance aquascape (translated - slow growing) can be a bad combination!


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## bigstick120 (May 23, 2005)

YEAH, you could fund the tank by filming fish porn! :icon_eek:


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## jt20194 (Oct 16, 2006)

> So instead I have to blame you, and your impressive setup in your thread, for a little indiscretion this weekend. I went and bought an Aquacontroller Jr., with the serial port option, plus the DC8 direct connect 8-socket AC rack, and an X10 controller for it - making a total of 12 plugs, and up to 8 of them direct connect. Merry Christmas to me... Merry Christmas to me...


Steve,

How is that AquaController working out for you? I like the DC8 option and was thinking of getting it. I was wondering how you go about setting the ID codes on the DC8. I assume it uses the X10 House/Unit nomenclature. Good to hear your discus are doing their thing!

Jim


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Jim,

I'm really excited about the AC Jr. But it's not set up yet. It is going to take quite a bit of time. I've spent too much of my career managing technology to be foolish enough to just find a free afternoon, and start ripping out old stuff, plugging in new stuff, and trusting everything will work. Nope, I'm working out a "migration plan" which included parallel testing of CO2 and temp controls, then moving plugging everything in under the tank, just to confirm it all works. THEN if everything works I'll start ripping stuff out, and permanently installing it. Gonna take a few weeks I suspect (time being a limited commodity).

The DC8 is addressed in the AC Jr just like the X10 devices - same nomenclature. And there is a series of DIP switches on the side of the DC8 that allows you to set the addresses it responds to - A, B, C, or D - and 1-8 or 9-16.

I also got the X10 controller for it. So I'll be putting my most critical stuff under the DC8's "direct" control, and all my non-critical stuff will remain under X10 control. Though with the AC Jr's regular refresh of state (every 5 minutes), I don't suppose it really matters. It makes X10 FAR more reliable than most of the other X10 controllers on the market.

And to anyone reading this, right now Neptune Systems is having an awesome sale on Aquacontroller Jr's with one DC8 bank of plugs. It's WELL worth checking out.:icon_wink


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

I've been overdue for some pics...

The tank is almost 6 months old now. And pretty stable IMO. The discus have settled in, though I do hope to lose a couple to thin the tank out a bit.

This weekend I had a now unusual thing happen - no eggs anywhere. So it was good time to rip out all the algae infested anubias leaves. There were quite a few, but at least over time the anubias seem to be getting a bit thicker, even with the periodic trimming. So I think the aquascape is sustainable. And I had to pull some leaves on the crinium on the right. They were getting faint dark marks on their edges - I suspect the beginnings of BBA. So I ripped out quite a few.

And it's too bad, because all the twisty, wrinkly leaves on the right side of the tank helped set the boundaries for some territories. With most of the leaves removed, vicious fighting has broken out between "Blue", the alpha male, and anyone that comes near him. He's the most blue fish, seen on the far right of the tank in many of these shots. Unless he has a lady over for a conjugal visit, that is his territory - definitely not to be violated. In many of these pics you can see how his lips are white and swollen from so much fighting.

Anyway, I've taken a bunch of shots of the tank. I took them at feeding time, so that kind of boosts the fighting too. Even with this recent fighting, most of the time it's pretty peaceful. But it does get sporty at feeding time. You can see that in these shots.

I haven't bothered to crop the pics or anything of that. And I'm posting a bunch of pics - not just the best ones. IMO that way you get to see the tank as it really looks - warts and all. Not just a few special "beauty" pics.

I took these at night, so you may see bubbles coming up the back of the tank. I the evening I turn on an airstone. Also, on one or two shots I had the Eheim autofeeder. I took it off though. That was just one wart that is too unsightly so I did make that one concession to "beautifying" the shots.

It's a lot of pics - I'm gonna post them over at SimplyDiscus too. Hope you enjoy them. And they are "clickable" if you want to see big pics.


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

Wow, Steve..the balance of plant species is remarkable. I really love how this tank matured. The Discus look pretty settled in here. The green neons and these discus really complement eachother. How difficult has it been to keep the sand border seperate? Do you vacuum this area?
You photographt skills sure have improved as well. Keep it up~:icon_mrgr


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks fresh. It's kinda hard to see that maturation. But it's there. I suppose that's what you get with an anubias heavy tank... slow changes. 

The sand is a bit of a PITA. If it weren't for the sand, the tank would be remarkably low maintenance. I rarely trim, rarely clean glass. Ferts and w/c is automatic. So that just leaves feeding (2x a day) and the sand. That sand had been vac'd a couple of days ago. It gets discus poop and AS in it (still). So every 3 or 4 weeks I vac it up, top layer of sand included. Then I pour the sand through a big strainer I bought (for this purpose) and the sand pours though. Everything else gets tossed. And the sand goes back in the tank.

The amount of AS that gets in the sand is reducing over time. I'm hoping that soon most of the AS that is likely to get in the sand, will have already been there - and been tossed - never to trouble me again.

And thank on the photograpy skills. But IMO they are just the same. I think when the subject looks OK, it's easier to take nice shots.  And between the discus and the tank maturing, the subject is slowly improving.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Hi Scolley,

So thats what big discus look like  Mine are soo small yet...

I am getting itchy for automatic ferts. Maybe you can help me out. I am searching around for what ferts to mix what not to mix. Is your dosing setup in this thread? My dilemma...I have five ferts and two pumps.

BTW soo strange to hear about your promiscuous discus!


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Tank looks awsome, Especially the plants and hardscape.

It looks like those fish in there will need a bigger tank soon:icon_bigg  

It has matured a ton and is only getting better!

-Andrew


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## |GTO| (Oct 9, 2006)

Some alternate views from an admirer of your work:

I think these 2 shots really express the cramping the discus may be feeling.



scolley said:


> I think these 2 shots really express the cramping the discus may be feeling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

looks good steve. i think the discus may be begging a bit for some food.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Brilliant *- I've posted my fert regimine, but don't bother looking for it. If you've got 5 ferts, you and I are doing something completely different. I'm just dosing ADA micros and K2SO4. You need to go look at one of Wasserpest's autodosing threads. There's a ton of info about what you can mix, and what you can't.

And I'm sure you remember... discus do get bigger.  


*Andrew *- Thanks buddy!


*Jim *- Actually, I think you are assuming that I think the fish are cramped because I want to lose two. Not at all. I want to lose two to reduce the visual impact the discus have... you don't notice the plants for all the fish. And to reduce the impact on the biofilter.

In fact, I strongly suspect that the whole bare bottom practice has gotten discus keepers to begin to think that is the natural state of affairs for discus. I'm lucky enough to have gotten a copy (signed!) of Heiko Bleher's new book - Bleher's Discus Volume 1 - and it is filled with iron clad proof that my tank is FAR more natural to a S. aequifasciatus or S. haraldi discus (which is what Cobalts are bred from) than a bare bottom, empty tank. Why do you think they are breeding like rabbits? They are happy.

That said, these pictures tend to flatten out for the viewer. Even the side view is quite deceptive. My aquascape does not take a 1/4 of the room in the tank. And even more, it's hollow - go take a look at the early shots in this thread. What looks like a wall is just scaffolding for plants. They have so much room to swim under, around, and behind the plants it's silly.

I don't mind your bringing this up at all. I appreciate the feedback! That's one of the big reasons I post. But in this case, I think the photo's make it look much worse than it is. And I really don't think the discus community (generally speaking) realizes that giving discus structure doesn't take away room. It ADDS it.

That's why the fighting broke out when I trimmed the crinium. That wimpy little plant provided a visual reference for territory. With the reference replaced by open water, fighting ensued. I firmly believe, that for territorial fish, any stocking rules for an open tank should be INCREASED for more density, not decreased, when structure is added to the tank.

And if you don't believe me... research the conditions S. aequifasciatus or S. haraldi are taken from. It ain't open water...

But that said, these shots really do make it look MUCH more crowded than it is. I can see why you would think that. I'll see if I can get some better shots to show what I mean.


*Geoff *- Thanks buddy. They are up front because they were GETTING fed. And I thought they just enjoyed seeing me...


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## |GTO| (Oct 9, 2006)

Hey scolley!!

Im jdb416, i.e. J. Buckallew--not Jim! hahaha honest mistake

I must say that I am no expert here, especially on discus seeing is how I cant afford their majesty or the required volume of water to house them properly.

You are right indeed. Pictures of aquariums truly deceive the true amount of space. Just as the camera adds 10 pounds to us humans 

Dont take my comments as negative, please. I think your tank is fantastic. Its odd how large circular fish such as discus distort the vision of the viewer into believing that there are dinner plates with eyes floating vertically in a big clear box of water. :icon_bigg 

Judging 3 dimensions with big flat fish is quite decieving. I see your point of view, and I now understadn why reducing the load by two fish is your target achievement...

just one question???

how in the world will you choose which 2 fish to let go??

impossible task, I commend your fortitude. :icon_mrgr 

cheers,


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

jdb416 - sorry about the mistaken identity! :redface: 

And I'm not taking the comment negatively at all. I hope I don't sound too strident. I'm aware of it because I'm definately sensitive to it! These big saucer sized fish are amusing. The point to the side, and you go "Wow!" They look straight at you and you say "Hey, where'd they go?"

This is a little evidence to that point:





When pointed the right way, their visual impact if very misleading. They aren't near so big as they seem. That said, visually they seem big. So a couple need to go.

You can identify the one I call "Runt" - the smallest and least developed. That's one. And the other will be one of the two females that is NOT the one that mates with the alpha male. So that would be "Football" or "Glasses". In my prior photo post, in the top pic, Runt is easy to find. Football is the one facing the right. If you look at her you can see that her shape is more triangular than round. BUT unfortunately she's also the only fish to have gotten to the point of wigglers. So her genes aren't the ones I want to pass on. But she's the best mom thus far.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Ripped out a TON of equipment...*

I mentioned earlier that I got an Aquacontroller Jr, with a DC8 bank of direct control sockets and an X10 interface. Well I've been spending days getting it hooked up. I'm not finished. I still have to hardwire my pressure sensor's connection to its serial port. It's connected now, but held together with electrical tape - not good. And I want to shorten my electrical cords to reduce some of the cord clutter under the tank.

But the amount of equipment that one little thing replaced is AMAZING.

Here's a pic of the stuff I was able to pull out of the stand - replaced by the Aquacontroller Jr.



That's:
7 two pronged mini-extension cords
3 three pronged mini-extension cords
6 three-to-two prong plug adapters
2 Intermatic timers
1 X10 RF Controller
6 X10 Appliance Modules
1 SMS 122
1 Ranco Dual-stage Temperature Controller
1 DIY Level Control Power Circuit
1 big white basket to (hold all that crap)​

All that leads to an amazing reduction in clutter in my stand, with much few things plugged into other things - which of course reduces the risk of something critical getting unplugged. And all my truly critical stuff is now plugged into the Aquacontroller's DC8, which are really solid plugs. So anything plugged into it is TIGHT - not gonna come out without a really hard pull.

And I've lost some flexibility. I can't use those nice little switches on the door anymore - the ones the turned things on and off. But I'm trading that for extra dependability. Unlike most other automation solutions that use X10, this one has no problem at all if you lose power. Every five minutes it checks what state everything is supposed to be in (on or off) and sends the commands again - just in case it wasn't "heard" before.

Hop mentioned these things in my Big Clear Kahuna thread more than a year ago. And I loved them. But I'd just bought all the stuff for the tank that does what this makes redundant. I wasn't about to chuck all that brand new stuff out. But after more than a year of living with the the old solution, I decided I wanted to improve things with something a bit less risky and a lot more manageable. Seeing jt20194's setup got me off the dime.

Now I just have to figure out if I want to put all this redundant stuff up for sale, or save it for another tank.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Phew! I haven't seen this tank in a while, Steve. You have GOT to be grinning ear to ear. Such a difference compared to your old struggles. Seems this one slipped right into place.

I got to say, this is the most surreal tank I've seen. The contrast between the discus and the layout is so severe (in a good way) that my eye keeps telling me the picture is the work of photoshop. This is especially the case when all of the discus are turned broadside. To me, this adds a 2nd layer of appeal. I love it!


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## standoyo (Nov 6, 2005)

Hi Steve,

I'm always amazed at the progression of this tank and beneath it. 
Looks and feel like I know this tank warts and all almost!

The Aquacontroller jr sounds like a worthwhile investment! Hmmm.

Merry X'mas everybody!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks *Ted*. I AM INDEED grinning ear to ear. This tank is a joy. Easy to maintain. Attractive IMO. And with cool fish. Wildly low maintenance. And wildly automated. I've got some gripes about the plumbing that I'm going to straighten out this winter. Then I'm gonna feel like this is just about as slick as it gets.

I do love it.  

Thank you *Stan*. I'll post an interior pic once I finish the Aquacontroller hook up. It should look quite a bit better - though there still are a ton of wires.


And the BIG TEST is just about to start. In a few days I've got to go off on a business trip again. A long one - gonna be gone for 30 days. The only maintenance the tank will get is my son tossing in frozen blood worm cubes each morning and evening. Other than that, it will be free of human intervention.

It will be a great test. If I can have a successful planted discus tank, with no intervention other than feeding for a month, I think it will be a real milestone.


Merry Christmas / Happy Holidays to everyone! I hope this is a joyful time for all my friends! :icon_bigg


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## Storm_Rider (Sep 30, 2006)

i wouldn't mind buying all those redundant stuff if it fits my budget. PM me with a price if you decide to part with it. Merry Christmas!


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Wow, the tank is looking fantastic! The Cobalts have really colored nice and blue. Like Ted said, I haven't been here in a while. Glad to see you are having so much fun. AWC does make things so much easier... Now you've got me intrigued by the Neptune system "Aquacontroler". Looks fantastic at a very fair price. I'll have to find jt20194 setup. Are you still running the X10 program to set up the timers? (Edit) I just found this info earlier in the thread...
Great job and have a safe trip Steve! bob


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## Hop (Mar 27, 2004)

Wow this is a nice suprise to log on and see the new and improved "pond de la scolley". I'll have to play catch up and see what I've misssed over the last few months. Great job scolley!


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## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

Hop said:


> Wow this is a nice suprise to log on and see the new and improved "pond de la scolley". I'll have to play catch up and see what I've misssed over the last few months. Great job scolley!


Hop!! How ya been bud??? an hows the reef comin along?

Steve...Hows the ol Kahuna lookin these days??? Havent heard from ya in awhile!!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

bastalker said:


> Steve...Hows the ol Kahuna lookin these days???


Thanks for asking Mark, but I would not know. I've been in Australia for a couple of weeks - won't be back for at least two more. The tank is probably pea soup by now.

I sent my good buddy Curare a note for a beer - seems he's stuck a thousand miles away or so. Too bad - this is as close as I'm gonna get to his part of the world.

I had an OUTSTANDING time at the Sydney Aquarium. AWESOME planted tanks, with rainbow fish swimming in planted biotopes! Absolutely stunning! And needless to say, the rest of it (non-planted SW tanks) was absolutely world-class. A sight to NOT BE MISSED by visitors to Sydney.

Anyway, I hope your beautiful fish are doing well Mark. Mine on the other hand are complete unknown. My oldest son says they all died (and snickers as he says it), while my youngest son says the tank looks great.

I suppose in a few weeks when I get home I'll find out. :icon_wink


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

holy smokes...nice work Steve! A few months go by and you've drastically changed things and are actually HAPPY!!! :biggrin: 

The discus look great and healthy! Don't worry about the football..should have no negative impact on her genes...its the environmental growth that probably led to her shape. I have a football swimming around too and she's the female that drops eggs on a regular basis. IMO, that's the sacrifice we are making for having a planted tank with these cool critters. 

Great job! I like the island effect too!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*'dawgger *- Thanks for the kind feedback - and thanks for the advice when I was setting this up. Getting this setup was due to help from many people like yourself. That and combing through posts here and over at Simplydiscus. We all support each other.roud: 


*Hop *- Thanks pal. That AC Jr. was originally your idea, long ago. It took me a long time to get to it, but so far it looks like a great investment. Thanks for the suggestion!


*Betowess *- Thanks Bob. I was thinking about you while I was at the Sydney aquarium. I know you love your rainbows, and they have some really nice planted tank biotopes filled with rainbows in their native setting. Very cool.


*Storm_Rider* - Thanks for the offer. But I'm not sure if I'm going to part with it. It's redundant now, but I might want it to control another tank. Maybe. When I add up all the parts, it actually cost more than the Aquacontroller. But if I change my mind, I'll probably post it in the swap-n-shop thread. Thanks though.


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## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

Steve!!!! I had no idea you were in Austrailia!!

My son did the same to me over the Christmas holidays. We were in Del, he went back a day early. Soon as he got to the house he calls me tellin me half the fish were floatin!!:icon_eek:

I bet you are missin the weather* here* huh??? :icon_wink

I am sure everything will be jus fine, an yer tank still looks great!!!

Al stopped by today to evaluate the fish, an bring up some FBW flats. He gave em a roud: 

Now I need to get rid of 3 snakeskins...:icon_sad:


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## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

> You can identify the one I call "Runt" - the smallest and least developed. That's one. And the other will be one of the two females that is NOT the one that mates with the alpha male. So that would be "Football" or "Glasses". In my prior photo post, in the top pic, Runt is easy to find. Football is the one facing the right. If you look at her you can see that her shape is more triangular than round. BUT unfortunately she's also the only fish to have gotten to the point of wigglers. So her genes aren't the ones I want to pass on. But she's the best mom thus far.


Genes have nuthin to do with how footballs fry will turn out Steve. Put her fry in a 45G BB tank after they have attached for a month, feed em good, cull correctly, sell a few, an keep 4-5 of the best, they will be just as big an round as any other discus!!roud:


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## isop (Jan 8, 2007)

süper bir akvaryum olmuş .
balıklar süper .
dizayn süper .
aferin sana


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## dufus (Nov 13, 2006)

OMG........This is the sweetest journal ever!
Nice tank,fish,plants,wood,sand,scape.........


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Reporting from Down Under*

Thanks *Mark*. I hoped Football's gene's would be OK. Maybe she'll be a keeper. And boy, do I wish I had more room in my tank - would LOVE your extra snakeskins!


*isop *- Wow! What ever you are speaking (Turkish?) it gave all the on-line translators a run for their money. But if I got it right, those were some very high praises. So I'm not sure how to say it in Turkish - but please do accept a very grateful "Thank you!"


*dufus *- Thanks a mil'. It's always nice to know your efforts are appreciated!


*RETURNING HOME! *:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: 

I travel a lot for my job. That's why I've adopted such fanatical automation in my tanks. But this trip down under for a month is a long time away from home for me. I'm be home in a few days and I CAN'T WAIT!!!!

I dearly love my wife and kids... but I'll not go into that here. That would be kinda like hijacking my own thread (can you do that?). But I am indeed looking forward to seeing my tank.

My youngest son and wife report no discernible algae. But I don't believe it. They probably see algae about as well as I see dust when my wife tells me I have to help clean. :icon_wink It's gotta be there.

I called home and my teenage son told me the tank looked great, "even though the fish were all dead." Every family has its comedian.

And while I would like to report that the tank has had zero maintenance - other than frozen blood worms tossed in twice a day - that would not be completely correct. I've not kept track of the rate at which I go through KNO3. But with the 50% water changes every two days - it's a brisk pace. So thankfully I mixed up a big batch of stock solution before I left. My son had to refill my 500ml jug a week or so ago. So much for hands-off.

I suppose it could have been hands off though - i just needed a bigger fert jug.

Well I'll report my honest findings when I come back. And BTW, I left right after Christmas - before New Year - and in the Christmas rush I never cleaned the tank. So strictly speaking, when I get back I will have not touched it for almost 6 weeks. It needed a good gravel vac and trim (and glass cleaning) before I left. It will definately be interesting to see what I find when I return!


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## Anti-Pjerrot (Jan 20, 2006)

Promise you take some photos before cleaning the tank, and after so we can compare...


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Anti-Pjerrot said:


> Promise you take some photos before cleaning the tank, and after so we can compare...


Good point! I promise.

Now if you go look at my post number 532, the one with all the photos, that's the last time cleaned the tank. Technically I did make a LOT of changes in the stand between those photos and when I left. That's becasue I set up the Aquacontroller Jr, which required a LOT of changes in the stand.

But the tank itself has not been touched since those pictures. And the stand has not been messed with since I left a month ago - other than the aforementioned addition of KNO3.

The pictures will tell it all.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Steve looks great. I have to warn you about that crinium though, I had one take over my 56 gallon column tank. They get huge and it will completely destroy your triangle look. 

I saw you were pondering using all that equipment in another tank. Truthfully, if you are happy with your new controller why would you use all that stuff instead of investing in another one?


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## pineapple (Jan 22, 2004)

What a gorgeous aquarium. I am catching up on this work in progress and it's well worth the read and to see how the plants have grown up. I like the Marsilea. It's a quiet plant that keeps on coming back. I have taken it out of the front of tanks and it slowly creeps around the back and one day many months later I see little four leaf clovers coming around the front glass - always a pleasant surprise.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*pineapple *- Thanks. And I like that Marsilea too. It needs to grow in more, but I think it is throttled by the relatively low light I have on the tank. But it is slowly claiming its ground, and requires next to zero maintenance.


*sean *- I'm not actively planning another tank. No place to put it. But you never know, so I'm hesitant to part with the stuff. If I sold it, I'd give someone a good deal - I'm not big on asking maximum bucks on used stuff. IMO used stuff should be sold cheap. So I wouldn't get nearly the money I need for another AC Jr. And to make matters worse, the AC Jr. was on sale - they are running a bundle with the DC8 (around $100 off as I recall).

But I can tell you that after having the AC Jr, anything else is going to feel like a poor substitute. Hmmmm.... maybe I should sell anyway.... :icon_roll

And thanks for the warning on the crinium. But believe it or not, I'm planning on it getting bigger. I'll just keep it trimmed to a suitable size. It used to be bigger, but started to get some BBA and I aggressively cut the leaves back. It's growing back out now - I think it looked better larger. Seems counterintuitive I know - filling up all the space to the right. But I hope you'll agree when you see it larger, that it actually looks nice.

And the discus freely swim among the crinium leaves, and they help the discus establish territories - the leaves reduces fighting.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

scolley said:


> I called home and my teenage son told me the tank looked great, "even though the fish were all dead." Every family has its comedian.


GAck! 

This comment deserves a little taunting back. Perhaps you need to tell him you know a a new Volvo at a fantastic price (half off?) and send him to a picture of the Volvos recovered when the Tricolor sunk?

World's Largest Saw - Popular Mechanics
http://media.popularmechanics.com/images/cars-sm.jpg

http://www.wreckedexotics.com/newphotos/weird/weird287.shtml


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

Steve, the tank and your dedication are always an inspiration. Definitely want to see the "before" pics when you get back from your voyage Down Under. I was having a bit of GDA (Green Dust Algae,) _again_, before the first of the year, so my tank also had not been touched for at least six weeks. I tossed out at _least _a half of a 5 gallon bucket the other day of plant trimmings :eek5: when I came to the conclusion that the time had come to do some tank maintenance.

But your tank, wow! Hats off to you, _amigo!_


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*"The horror..." - (M. Brando from Apocalypse Now)*

*Blueram *- you had me laughing out loud buddy! But my eldest is too clever for such payback. It's hell having kids with more smarts than you do. :icon_frow 

*Cindy *- All I can say is "Thank you". Coming from you, I want you to know, that means a lot.

*Now, down to the painful truth*

Well, I got back from the land down under, and found all was not well in New England paradise. Now well at all...

My son (and my wife) swear the tank looked great until a week ago. I kind of suspect now one paid attention until dad was about to come home. But who's to say? Either way, I found an algae mess. In one of the pics I submerged a paper plate to provide a little contrast and background so you could see just how bad the algae on the glass actually was.










I did an 90% drain on the tank so I could clean dry glass, and not spread the algae in the process. With this tank that is a major hassle because so many of the anubias are way, way above the substrate - so it means constant re-wetting of leaves and roots with water as you clean.

All in all I clipped off over 100 anubias leaves. All covered with GSA. Not GDA, and no GDA on the glass. It was all GSA. That is except for the sand. On that you can see AS piling up - that's no big deal. But the very clear BGA on the glass under the sand is a bit of a concern.  

I'll post more tomorrow on the test kit readings I got on the tank - and what I think went wrong in my absence. And as always, more important, what I've learned (the hard way) from this lesson. :icon_sad:

PS - that distinct line on the glass where the GSA stops is the line where the water drain/fill stops every night. So at least it is interesting to note that GSA does not tolerate even a few minutes exposure to air - for what good that does.


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## jt20194 (Oct 16, 2006)

*It all relative...*

Steve,

Good to see you back!!! Hope all went well for you on your trip. For six weeks of unattended maintenance other than feeding, which by the way could be part of the culprit, the tank looks great. I know that you are striving for that perfect balance using technology to keep the algae out, plants happy and breeding Discus. You’re closer to achieving that than anyone else here. Will look forward to hearing what your readings were. I'd be intersted in your PO4 level and what you think your CO2 levels are...

JT


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

IMO it was all about the CO2.

Before I left my pH probe seemed to be reading high. When I calibrated my little Milwaukee dip reader, and compared it to my AC Jrs. probe, it read about 0.3 points lower. Trusting the hand held Milwaukee, and having to leave immediately, I set the pH in my tank to 6.3, thinking that was actually about 6.0.

Now with a KH of 1.3 degrees, that left me with a CO2 ppm of 36. If I was wrong, and the AC Jr. was right, and my pH was actually 6.3, then my CO2 ppm was 18. Not good, but I had to make a call - I was leaving in a hurry. Better to have algae than to set it too high than to risk fish jumping out of the tank.

But while I was away, the completely unexpected happened. The carbonates in my water dropped. I'm not sure what that's about. Maybe the water supply changing because it's winter? It's worth noting that I don't add any N or P to my water - it comes with it. So since my feeding is constant, my light is constant, and my water change rate is constant (@ 30% a day), my N and P should stat the same unless my biomass changes radically. And I did have a good bit of growth. Anyway, my N stayed the same at about 0.9, but my p dropped from 1.2 to 0.8. I'm wondering if the carbonate drop is related to the P drop, possible due to reduced agricultural runoff upstream of my town's watershed.

Anyway, I came home, did more testing and came to the conclusion that my AC Jr. was reading correctly - that the Milwaukee hand held is wrong. so that means my pH has been 6.3 - not 6.0. Not good considering my KH dropped from 1.3 to about 0.9 or below. That's a co2 ppm of 13 or less!

No wonder I came home to algae - a bad pH reading to start with, and falling carbonate hardness. Not a good mix.

And for the record, my feeding is two little Hikari frozen bloodworm cubes in the morning and evening. They go in little plastic feeding cones, so virtually none goes uneaten - any that escape are food for the tetras. And through out the day there are 3 very small feedings of Tetra color bits - which again, the tetras love.

*Soapbox Time*
Now I know some of you are chomping at the bit to tell me to get my Phosphates up into the 3.0 space - that you did it, and lo and behold your GSA disappeared. Sorry. I don't buy it. I strongly suspect that in most cases where someone states that they should really be saying "I didn't know it, but I was bottoming out on my phosphates and GSA kicked in, but now by adding excess phosphates I don't accidentally bottom out anymore, and the GSA is gone."

Well, I'm not bottoming out. Ever.

I believe this to be a CO2 issue. It could be phosphate related. But I'm going to see if I can resolve it with proper CO2 amounts. If that does not work, then I'll consider more phosphates.

Oh, FWIW... I'm one of the lucky few with a Lamotte Potassium kit. K2SO4 is the only macro I dose, and I keep it in the 15-25 ppm range, where it is now.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Is the GS mostly on the glass? Did some GSA show up on the Anubias? Tank still looks great. I didn't realize you were doing 30% per day... Wow. You better get your PO4 upto 3ppm. HaHa, just kidding... BTW, get the Hanna. Much better handheld, IME.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Betowess said:


> Is the GS mostly on the glass? Did some GSA show up on the Anubias? Tank still looks great. I didn't realize you were doing 30% per day... Wow. You better get your PO4 upto 3ppm. HaHa, just kidding... BTW, get the Hanna. Much better hand held, IME.


You bet it was on the leaves! I had to cut out 100+!!! I counted. That's a lot of anubias leaves. :icon_sad: 

Yeah, I'm gonna have to get a Hanna or something. Never being certain of your pH is drag.



*This is gonna be long-winded. But here's why I left thinking my AC Jr. was wrong...*

...and my Milwaukee hand held was right. And then why I decided that I had it backwards. This is mind blowing...

Before I left the Milwaukee said 6.0, the AC Jr. said 6.3. So I open a fresh packet of 7.01 solution, dip the Milwaukee in and it says 7.0. Then - because I was leaving and it was IMPORTANT - I opened a fresh bottle of 4.01 solution. I dip the Milwaukee in that - and it reads 4.0. Cool! Milwaukee's good.

So I dip the Milwaukee in the tank - 6.0. Clearly the AC Jr. is reading high. I call Neptune systems, complaining because I has calibrated this d*mn thing not two days prior. They said my ballasts or a ground loop could cause the problem. Only way to tell was to pull the probe out and test a glass of aquarium water. No time for that - my probe is mounted inline. Pulling it is a PITA. So I decided I had to assume the AC Jr. was reading high, and adjusted the pH settings for the tank (increased them by 0.3) setting the tank at 6.3 - thinking that's what it would read when it was really 6.0. Big mistake.

I come home, see the algae, and go "Boy, this looks like a CO2 problem". So I repeat the same tests on the Milwaukee probe - 7.01 solution reads 7.0 and 4.01 solution reads 4.0. Great.

Then I go through the PITA and pull the AC Jr. probe (have to turn of my filter and lock down the plumbing). I stick it in the 4.01 - it reads 4.0. Cool. I stick it in the 7.01 - it reads 7.0. Cool.

Then I get a glass of water from the tank and stick both probes in. Milwaukee says 6.0, AC Jr. says 6.3. WHAT?!?!?

How can that happen? I try it again - same impossible result. I have no idea how they can both zero in on reference solutions correctly, but test differently for a water sample. Goes beyond my understanding. But AT LEAST one of them has to be wrong.

For now I'm assuming it's the Milwaukee. First because it's a Milwaukee. Second because it is moving very slowly, where the AC Jr. zips right to the number - and speed of change is a sign of "freshness" in a pH probe. And third and most important, if the Milwaukee was right, my CO2 was OK. But the algae makes it look like it was not.

So that's the reason for my confusion. I'm gonna go get a Hanna or something. I CANNOT STAND not KNOWING what my pH his.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Hey Steve,

Despite all the problems you keep finding with your tank I think you should admit that it looks amazing for 6 weeks of no maintenance! If I left any of my tanks for 6 weeks they would look worse than ever! 

So a 6 week break and only some GSA isn't too bad! 

Do you have any MTS? That would probably help with the algae in the sand bed...

So I think your tank still looks great!

-Andrew


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Steve, IME its pretty common to have two different brands off by .2 or so, even more. Might be the age of the probe or some other varience of pH. It seems so fickle, pH does.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Fish Newb said:


> Hey Steve,
> 
> Despite all the problems you keep finding with your tank I think you should admit that it looks amazing for 6 weeks of no maintenance!


Thanks Andrew. Kind of you to say, but you have to be practical here. First, it was just shy of 6 weeks. Second, and most important, it was getting what amounted to a 50% water change every two days. Lots and lots of people's tanks would look great with that kind of cycling.

No, I've got some work to go. If the tank is "right", if it is balanced, the only maintenance it should need is the removal of old/dead growth. Other than that is should be self maintaining.

That said, obviously I cleaned it up. And it looks pretty good IMO. But then again, that's why I harp on not believing every thing you see or read. I could post pics of the tank tonight, and people that had never seen this thread might be going "Wow! Great tank!" They don't know that yesterday it looked like crap. IMO the proof of the pudding is in the eating.


*Soapbox time again*

_This hobby, unlike most scientific endeavors, does not have a peer review process. As I'm sure you know, in the world of research and applied science, if you want to make a point - and have it believed - you have to have it published and scrutinized by your scientific peers. We have no corollary in this hobby except these forums. People spout "information" and people make claims. I'm publishing cold hard - and sometimes humbling - facts for public review. I can't substantiate the "facts" except with my pictures. If I'm successful, you should be able to see it in my before - after - and in between - pictures of my tank.

I challenge you to question sources of "information" that do not back it up with visual proof. An unsubstantiated claim is just that - a claim. Nothing more or less.

Want me to believe? Show me the pictures. Of your tank. Before. And after.

And if you personally take less as proof, please pm my your mailing address - there's a wonderful business opportunity I'd like to share with discerning individuals like yourself. :icon_wink _

This hobby would be much further along if more people would just say the simple words "Show me the pictures - before and after." We accept so much on unsubstantiated claims that it is IMO astounding.


*Bob *- Your point about probes is well taken. But you may missing my point. My two probes COMPLETELY agreed about both the 7.01 and 4.01 reference solutions. But they widely diverged on points in between. I would have bet money that that was not possible. It just goes to show what I don't know.


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## Curare (Sep 15, 2004)

Don't fell too bad scolley, My tank was so green I couldn't tell if I had fish or not!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks pal. I don't feel bad at all. I'm learning. :smile:


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## SuRje1976 (Feb 2, 2006)

scolley said:


> I could post pics of the tank tonight, and people that had never seen this thread might be going "Wow! Great tank!" They don't know that yesterday it looked like crap. IMO the proof of the pudding is in the eating.


Good points Steve. And I'm sure it does look great. That being said though, I don't think there is anyone who has never seen this thread - last count it was viewed over 44,000 times :icon_wink . We are all learning with you!


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## KevinC (May 24, 2004)

scolley said:


> *Bob *- Your point about probes is well taken. But you may missing my point. My two probes COMPLETELY agreed about both the 7.01 and 4.01 reference solutions. But they widely diverged on points in between. I would have bet money that that was not possible. It just goes to show what I don't know.



Steve:

Let me throw in a little of my experience with pH probes: The ionic strength (TDS) of the solutions can be a cause of the problem you describe above. pH standard solutions are usually very high ionic strength (they put in a lot of buffer salts to ensure it stays at the stated pH), while your tank should be at a fairly low TDS (assuming this from your kH reading and what I know of your tank GH in the past). When measuring in a low TDS solution, the assumption that the junction potential (voltage from the pH probe itself) is constant from the buffer solutions to the sample is often false. There is not a simple solution to this problem - especially for the hobbyist. I might suggest calibrating with 1:10 or 1:50 diluted buffer solutions and see if the probes have better agreement on a sample. However, diluted buffer solutions are more likely to become contaminated or "wander" from the designated pH, so there is a risk anyway.

This article: here is a bit old (1985) and quite technical, but take a look at Table 3 to see the possible variation between probes.

Kevin


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## Jubs (Apr 5, 2006)

Well Steve I have to say I have spent about 8 hours reading this whole thread over the past couple nights I have to say the tank is amazing! I really respect the fact that you have completely documented the good and the bad aspects of the journey. This is a great thread and accomplishment the tank and fish are outstanding! 

Justin


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Death of the Big Clear Kahuna*

You might want to go look here. I think this particular thread is about finished...


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## jt20194 (Oct 16, 2006)

Now I understand why we haven't seen you here for awhile...


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

Nah, he was on a trip to Australia, but now . . . man . . . that's just terrible. It's like standing at the top of Mt. Everest and then getting pushed off. Very cruel joke.

Well, if its PTs Scolley, I know even falling off Everest wouldn't kill 'im. I'd like to extend my words such that I'd be a friend to wait by you until the ambulance comes-- really sorry Steve. But I know you're going to be alright and get back up.


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## jt20194 (Oct 16, 2006)

Steven, I knew he was in Australia, I was refering to the last week.:icon_wink 

Jim


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

KevinC said:


> Let me throw in a little of my experience with pH probes: The ionic strength (TDS) of the solutions can be a cause of the problem you describe above.


*Kevin *- Thanks for the insight! It's really nice to get that from a pro, because frankly, I KNOW I was testing appropriately. And the results were just not making sense.

There is a lot of comfort in knowing that I was not going crazy... testing two different probes in 7.01 and 4.01 reference solutions and getting consistent results - but also KNOWING that testing the two probes in my tank water yielded wildly divergent results.

Thanks for letting me know that I'm not going crazy.

If you look at the explosion of GSA in my tank during the 30 days while I was gone, I think you will see it was directly related to my having insufficient CO2 in the tank. And AMAZINGLY that is related to my tank popping (more on that later).

At the bottom of all this is that it appears to be REALLY HARD to know your pH in a tank that has wildly low KH and low TDS.

THAT IMO is something that we SHOULD ALL BE LEARNING FROM.

Thanks for the tip! roud:


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## Curare (Sep 15, 2004)

Steve, I've done a bit of a reread, and I've gota say you've inspired me to annoy the living hell out of my fish and do a major rescape of my tank.

I'm curious as to what you're on about with popping tanks.


please, do continue.


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## sNApple (Nov 6, 2005)

Steve any advice for leaving a tank alone for 3 weeks without maintenance?
OH NO, just saw your thread.... RIP TANK!:frown:


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

KevinC said:


> Steve:
> 
> Let me throw in a little of my experience with pH probes: The ionic strength (TDS) of the solutions can be a cause of the problem you describe above. pH standard solutions are usually very high ionic strength (they put in a lot of buffer salts to ensure it stays at the stated pH), while your tank should be at a fairly low TDS (assuming this from your kH reading and what I know of your tank GH in the past). When measuring in a low TDS solution, the assumption that the junction potential (voltage from the pH probe itself) is constant from the buffer solutions to the sample is often false. There is not a simple solution to this problem - especially for the hobbyist. I might suggest calibrating with 1:10 or 1:50 diluted buffer solutions and see if the probes have better agreement on a sample. However, diluted buffer solutions are more likely to become contaminated or "wander" from the designated pH, so there is a risk anyway.
> 
> ...



Kevin: Does this apply to a low KH but normal TDS as well?
I haven't had any problems, and my KH is 1 and GH is 4


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## KevinC (May 24, 2004)

fresh_newby said:


> Kevin: Does this apply to a low KH but normal TDS as well?
> I haven't had any problems, and my KH is 1 and GH is 4


But GH and KH alone are not a measure of the TDS. You could have a higher TDS than those numbers indicate, thus having no problems. Are you comparing the numbers from two different probes/meters? The best way to know the "true" pH is by potentiometric titration - but this is difficult in the hobby situation and especially when considering a dissolved gas. You may have "consistent" readings, but if they are consistently off by 0.1-0.2 units, it really makes the pH-kH-CO2 chart irrelevant.

I'm in a similar situation (low TDS), but I just don't worry too much about the accuracy of my pH readings - I keep my CO2 on, and I'll tolerate a little GSA (and keep my phosphates high:icon_bigg ) and scrape the glass a little each week . . .


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

KevinC said:


> But GH and KH alone are not a measure of the TDS. You could have a higher TDS than those numbers indicate, thus having no problems. Are you comparing the numbers from two different probes/meters? The best way to know the "true" pH is by potentiometric titration - but this is difficult in the hobby situation and especially when considering a dissolved gas. You may have "consistent" readings, but if they are consistently off by 0.1-0.2 units, it really makes the pH-kH-CO2 chart irrelevant.
> 
> I'm in a similar situation (low TDS), but I just don't worry too much about the accuracy of my pH readings - I keep my CO2 on, and I'll tolerate a little GSA (and keep my phosphates high:icon_bigg ) and scape the glass a little each week . . .


I don't really bother with my pH either...it kind of stays around 5.9-6.2 but I have the CO2 on 3-4bps all day and off at night. I don't have GDA and everything pearls so if it aint broke, why fix it? I doubt I would use a potentiometer and I really don't care about precision in this environment....but it makes sense wht it is what it is. See Steve? You are not going nuts! <well at least not for that reason> :icon_mrgr


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## Mv1175 (Feb 1, 2007)

WOW....what a tank and thread....this took me 12 hours to read and absorb. Nice job Scolley. You a inspiration to us all


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Well, I'm afraid in my grief I started a new thread. That is, I did when the Bigh Clear Kahuna popped a massive leak! I lost it all!

But all's well that ends well.

You can check out my misery that ensued with the tank ruptured - if you are into that kind of thing :icon_frow - here.

And I've started a new tank - Son of Kahuna.

And EVEN BETTER, a kind and brave soul has taken on the Big Clear Kahuna name, and tank. You can read about that here.


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

wow it toook me a day and half to read this, but i lovee your threads they're so amazing. you're completely my hero


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