# Keeping Red Plants Red..Please Share Your Thoughts.....



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I'm not sold on the super low NO3, but you can dose KNO3 everyday and not worry about deficiency. 

I don't dose KNO3 btw.. My fish provides all the NO3 the plants need.


Another thing is these plants were probably grown emersed and is brilliant red when you get them but changes as they grow under water. That's another thing to consider.

I consider 2-3wpg high light.. 4-5 wpg in a large tank is overboard I think. Although there are other variables like bad reflectors so I can't say for sure.


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## dewalltheway (Jan 19, 2005)

mistergreen said:


> I'm not sold on the super low NO3, but you can dose KNO3 everyday and not worry about deficiency.
> 
> I don't dose KNO3 btw.. My fish provides all the NO3 the plants need.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the thought. I was reading an article where several years ago 2-3 watts/gal was high light but now it seems people are moving into 4-5 watts as being high light. I do the EI Method of dosing so I dose KNO3 every other day.

Oh btw...I do know for sure that these were grown submersed (purchased from skewlboy)


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## fibertech (Apr 29, 2009)

I have some red plants that I started around 3 months ago. I have very hard water and my KH is pretty high(8-9). I keep iron in my water (around 1.5 ppm) and the leaves are very red. I have a low tech tank with around 1.5wpg and use no Co2.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Something I have observed recently, I started adding excel to one of my tanks upstairs. They used to be bright red and now they aren't so much. But the growth is amazing. I wonder if anyone has experienced this.


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## fibertech (Apr 29, 2009)

sewingalot said:


> Something I have observed recently, I started adding excel to one of my tanks upstairs. They used to be bright red and now they aren't so much. But the growth is amazing. I wonder if anyone has experienced this.


I am using Excel daily


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

That blows that theory. :hihi:


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## fish dork (Jan 13, 2008)

Did you ask the person you bought the plants from what their parameters are?


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## cah925 (May 18, 2007)

For red plants, I usually make clay tablets and push them into the substrate directly beneath the red plants. The extra iron in the clay is absorbed through the roots rather than having to add it to the water column and risk algae problems. I've had great success using this method with many of the plants you listed.


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## Minsc (Jul 9, 2006)

If you are trying to get your plants as red as Skewlboy's, my advice would be... don't even try:icon_eek:

I'm pretty sure his methods involve witchcraft and possibly radiation. You don't want to mess with that stuff if you aren't a trained expert.


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## dewalltheway (Jan 19, 2005)

Minsc said:


> If you are trying to get your plants as red as Skewlboy's, my advice would be... don't even try:icon_eek:
> 
> I'm pretty sure his methods involve witchcraft and possibly radiation. You don't want to mess with that stuff if you aren't a trained expert.


I second that. His Inclinata was the most beautiful red I have seen in a plant but I have cured that. It is now almost green! :icon_cry:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Minsc said:


> If you are trying to get your plants as red as Skewlboy's, my advice would be... don't even try:icon_eek:
> 
> I'm pretty sure his methods involve witchcraft and possibly radiation. You don't want to mess with that stuff if you aren't a trained expert.


Haha!

I can say similar things, many have long thought I was involved in Voodoo

But most of the plants I have develop intense reds, I'm not that keen on garrish coloration though, I like deep greens and various textures, greens etc.

The reds just sort of come with good growth, excellent CO2 and some time for the plants to really get chugging along in their growth. Once that momentum starts, then you have excellent results, no algae and no issues.

I've never bought that baloney about super high light requirement or iron makes plants redder.

Simply adding all the ferts routinely, giving things time to settle, and really keeping on top of maintenance seems to be the key.

There is no trick, no witchcraft. Mostly just basic good old horticulture work.
That said, you can ramp up the color for a particular day, or open house, photo shoot etc.

But that means more work, tweaking some NO3 for a day or two, and adding more light for day of the water changes. Keeping things really clean, doing more water changes, mega dosing, tweaking CO2 really good, cleaning filters every week or two, vacuuming any detritus out, clean the glass more than it's needed, dribble excel on equipment, rock./wood when doing the water change to kill any algae etc etc etc.
Consider running needle wheel CO2 etc.

All these tweaks add up to a really healthy tank with massive pearling.
It's not any one, this also works for any plant, not just red ones.
Once the tank is really cooking, then you can slack off, the plants are way ahead and doing well.

Just keep up with pruning and observe closely as you stop doing so much and take note of how the responses affect the tank. You'll see a dramatic difference the day of a large water change/dose thereafter. This is mostly due to circulation, removal of organic matter, and of course, plenty of CO2.

Do a large water change in the morning, say 1 hour after the lights come on, leave the lights on while you do the water change. Do 50-80%.
Refill and dose thereafter.

If things are not off the hook growth wise, look at CO2.
Particularly if things do not look so hot the 2-3-4day after the water change.
that crazy pearling and growth is the reference, so you use that a reference standard to go for.

T5 light at 3W gal is insanely high light BTW.
You do not need this much.

I have the option to adjust my lighting and watch the color of the plants over a wide range. I can add HQI, I can add 3w/gal or T5, however, I have the same colors overall with the less lighting.
I do not use my HQI's any more(electric bill is much less)
I do not use 3W/gal of T5's unless I want to grow things out and prune lots(rare), so I stick with 1.8/gal instead.

If I want a redder color, I'll chose a different species instead.
I can also allow the plants to run across the surface for a few days and then trim.............(they gets lots of light + free air CO2- something to think about with respect to good CO2). Recall that all red pigment is mostly saturated or unsaturated long chain reduced carbon, there's no iron in red pigments in plants. Take a look sometime in a plant Biochem text book
The info is there. Plants need Fe, but red color is not from the Fe itself.

Time to slowly develop the red color also helps:
Some species do very well in lower light like A reinickii:










Also, if you like redder colors, chose shallow tanks, and plant the red plants up higher on a slope, as the plants hit the surface, they often redden up (CO2) and have plenty of light.

Light is a two edge sword, you must have good CO2 with it, otherwise you never achieve the red. And never hit that good ranges for most of these issues, this is not just a red color issue, this is a growth in general issue.
We can all tweak and keep on top of things, it takes work, but once you do it and tweak the CO2, get good dense plant growth/momentum, then it's much easier thereafter.


Regards, 
Tom Barr













All this work


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## Minsc (Jul 9, 2006)

On a more serious note, they should get more color as they get closer to your lights, but I don't know if they will ever get back to the color they were. 

I have my inlinata in a 10 under 96 watts, and they are developing a nice rose color, though nothing like the blood red they had when I received them. Only time will tell if it just needs to settle in more, needs a different fert ratio, or even more light:icon_eek:


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## dewalltheway (Jan 19, 2005)

The one thing I have not had a problem with is growth. The inclinata grew about 1" a day but just lost it's red color. I am getting good pearling in my plants so I feel that my CO2 is good (I don't have a drop checker or any fancy equipment to measure CO2, I just go off the pearling of my plants). I have good lighting, I keep my filters clean, do 50% water changes every week. The other issue that Tom touched on was a shallow tank. My tank is 21" deep from the surface to the substrate. The other idea that Tom didn't mention is lower NO3. I am cutting my NO3 dosing in half for the next few weeks to see what happens.

BTW Tom....great pic! I love the color and leaf contrasts.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

dewalltheway said:


> The one thing I have not had a problem with is growth. The inclinata grew about 1" a day but just lost it's red color. I am getting good pearling in my plants so I feel that my CO2 is good (I don't have a drop checker or any fancy equipment to measure CO2, I just go off the pearling of my plants). I have good lighting, I keep my filters clean, do 50% water changes every week. The other issue that Tom touched on was a shallow tank. My tank is 21" deep from the surface to the substrate. The other idea that Tom didn't mention is lower NO3. I am cutting my NO3 dosing in half for the next few weeks to see what happens.
> 
> BTW Tom....great pic! I love the color and leaf contrasts.


I've had L inciliata blood red also, it's a frigging weed though. I hate the plant due to the insane rates of growth. Lower NO3 never did that much, I was the one that started suggesting it in the first place and told folks why back in the 1990's.

Basically the Chl is a very rich Nitrogen pigment and it's green in color. No N supply or a limited amount, and you get less Chl, this means you get less light gathering and less growth as a result, as well as less CO2 uptake since N is also heavy in the enzyme that fixes CO2........

This is a two edge sword.

So with limiting N, you limit Chl, so there is less green.
However, the red color stays the same if.........you also have good/great CO2.

Remember that limiting N limits all the enzymes as well, and this means less ability to fix CO2 and less ability to capture light. so you end up needing more light and more CO2 to compensate for this limitation. 
Additionally now you have dose more carefully and have higher light and higher CO2.

Why bother?

I think it's easy to do for a temporary picture, etc, open house, but it is a bad method since it is reducing the stability, is a sign of stress in plants, not health, can increase the likelihood of bottoming out the N. 

Reducing N does slow growth, but does so at a metabolic cost.
It reduces Chl, and helps show the red pigments. It does not increase the red pigments however. 










This is my tank right now with some red plants. the L peruensis/granulosus is pretty red/burgandy, the M turb is pretty coppery, even the Green R macrandra is semi red, there's a shaded stem of the normal R macrandra in there.

Lots of well feed fish, 1.8w/gal of T5 and 24" deep tank, and I dose 30ppm a week of KNO3, plus.........I have another source for N, the ADA AS on top of that.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## dewalltheway (Jan 19, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> This is my tank right now with some red plants. the L peruensis/granulosus is pretty red/burgandy, the M turb is pretty coppery, even the Green R macrandra is semi red, there's a shaded stem of the normal R macrandra in there.
> 
> Lots of well feed fish, 1.8w/gal of T5 and 24" deep tank, and I dose 30ppm a week of KNO3, plus.........I have another source for N, the ADA AS on top of that.
> 
> ...


Is this dosing on your 180gal tank you have? If it is, then I am right on track with my new dosing for my 90 gal tank. I was dosing 30ppm/week but have dropped back to 15ppm/week but I also have alot more lighting then you do. I am running 3.2wts/gal of 6700/10,000K CF bulbs for 7 hrs and then for 3 hours in the afternoon burst to 4.7wts/gal using 2 65watt 10,000K CF bulbs. I also raised my lights this past weekend so they are roughly around 8" from the top of the water.

Also, thanks for the lesson on NO3. It helps to understand what these nutrients do besides just someone telling you to dose this much on these days and then do a water change.

One question I do have is what do you mean by the CO2 being fixed?

Also, when are we going to see a full shot of the 180 gal tank you have? :bounce:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

This is the 180, but I cheated by using the MH's for 3 hours a day here, but otherwise, it's 2 W/gal most of the day(10 hours total). I stopped using the MH's entirely.

Growth is fine.
The L pantanal is red, but I let it get to the top for a few days and then trim to get a nice red color like you see. Takes a bit longer etc, but same type of thing.

So that's a 180, a 120 and 38 gal with lower light ranges, generally about 50-90 micromols of light at the tips. Some might hit 120-150 at the surface etc.

A 5.5 W/gal PC light on a 20 Gal is about 450 at the surface of the tank, 250 or so at the tips here:










Is it redder? Yes, but the damn plants grow 6" or more a week and on a tank that's only 16" tall, this is impractical for any scape, it's a weed farm.

Now I could limit say N, or P strongly to reduce the rates of growth, but then I'm wasting 3w/gals of light per gallon. I can add more CO2 and more N/P etc, waste a little bit of that, and it would maximize the rates of growth.
Electric cost a lot more than maybe 1/2 pound of KNO3 per year (30$ vs .25$ for the KNO3). I suppose a noon burst would reduce it, but even 4 hours is still 12$ vs .25$.

I think for gardening, we might look at this whole thing a bit different, not as a static system, rather, something that grows, fills in and changes through time.

Say we want to have certain aesthetics and growth characters, common right?

Then we can reduce the light once it's grown in at those higher rates, then the rates are slowed and we can enjoy it. Likewise, the same approach can be done with red color, for either N or light. but it's not something we might always want to do and drive the system like that.

Most folks and debates seem to assume static systerms, but there's no reason to do so. Self imposed assumptions basically.

Some suggested this with CO2 also, add CO2 then once the tank grew in nicely, yank it. This works at lower light. Or add Excel and then reduce it to the point you add "just enough" to suit for Excel dosing etc.
Few ways to skin a cattail.
But what is the most manageable? Sort of a human question, not a plant question. 

Still, there's no real way to measure red color intensity to compare one treatment with another, our eyes can be deceived very easily.:thumbsup:
There are ways but not for the average hobbyists.

Our methods are very relative, influenced by simply the color of the lights etc. Some bulbs seem to produce nice color, eg the GE 9325K etc.
So that is yet another route(use red light to give a red coloration). 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## fibertech (Apr 29, 2009)

I made a typo in my first post: It should read .5 on iron not 1.5
Sorry for the mistake


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