# Rimless/Frameless Tanks



## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Last month travis posted this link of ADA HQ in Japan.

Does anyone know where to find the large rimless/frameless tanks shown in that link? They don't look like they even have eurobracing in the top, just wide open. And they look like glass.

Anyone know where to get these in large (55+ gal) sizes in the states?


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

I read somewhere (APC?) that Oceanic will build one custom in this sort of manner.

I sure wish Hagen (yes, Hagen) would import these  to the USA. They are sold in Canada.


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## GDominy (Jul 30, 2002)

Those hagen tanks are actually pretty sharp.. got to look at some recently, and I would consider them hands down for a tank with a suspended fixture above it etc..


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## turbomkt (Jun 9, 2004)

Jeff Senske mentioned that Oceanic would build tanks to order and they have had a look at ADA tanks. I'd say to e-mail him at ADG (http://www.aquariumdesigngroup.com/).


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

GDominy said:


> Those hagen tanks are actually pretty sharp.. got to look at some recently, and I would consider them hands down for a tank with a suspended fixture above it etc..


Are they priced reasonably?

I love the black siliconed seams, too.


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## GDominy (Jul 30, 2002)

If by reasonably you mean "drastically overpriced" then yes ;-)


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## Ahkuma (Dec 5, 2004)

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11343&highlight=starfire is a link where IUnknown goes into detail where he got his, for how much and so forth.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks folks. I knew that IUnknown's tank was Starfire, so I never looked at his vendor's website. But they apparently do make regular glass tanks - I've asked for a quote. But I'm hoping for something in the 75-90g range, and in a starfire tank, I'm sure that would be viciously expensive. 

John P. - thanks for the Hagen link, but if I read it right, they do go up to around 55g, but not quite as large as I'd like.

GDominy - this is absolutely for a hanging fixture - I love the open top, uncluttered look! You can see from the link in my sig, on my "training wheels" 20g I'm trying to move in that direction. In my current 20 though, the light is not suspended, and it's wires trail down behind the tank (hate that), and the rim is a significant visual distraction. But I got a pair of lilies from IUnknown (thanks!) that really cut down on the visual clutter. Now just got to see if I can find (afford) the right tank.

turbomkt - I shudder at the thought of the cost of a custom Oceanic tank. But I will check that out. Thanks for the ADG recommendation.

I got the excel spreadsheet off the Oceanic site before I posted this, and it doesn't look like they do frameless rectangular glass tanks. But the descriptions are not real clear. They do have a "brick style". I don't know what that is, but they start at 180, which is too big. I'll give ADG a yell.

Thanks folks! :icon_bigg


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## Account_Cancelled (Dec 23, 2004)

As far as I know, any of the 55g or higher Hagen frameless tanks have a centre brace to eliminate bowing and stress. Even with the centre brace on my 75g frameless (24H) I can still see some bowing. 

These tanks are beautiful though. When I set up my tank I never thought anything of it. It was just what I ended up getting. The top edge is bevelled and it gives the tank a sharp look.


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

Oceanic from my experience was the most expensive (this was for the 20 gallon),


> Oceanic will build the tank, as described in your
> attached note, and deliver the product to my
> distributor (Central Pet, Sacramento) for a cost to
> you of $1100.00.
> ...


This might be your best bet if you are looking for the least expensive,
http://www.glasscages.com/

To have the ADA tanks imported by ADG,


> The CLEAR (starfire-type) 120cm (75 gallon) tank is $1,035.00. (That price will not increase with the increases referred to below). The $388.00 quoted in the previous e-mail was for the regular clarity glass. I have the regular clarity glass 90cm (58 gallon) tank and it's very nice.
> 
> The price on the 120cm wood cabinet-stand would be $1950.00.


I don't know how much it would cost from aquariumobsessed.com without starphire,


> 48x18x21
> * 4 sides Starphire glass - 1/2 glass"
> * All edges ground and polished
> * trimless
> ...


All-glass is coming out with a starphire line this year. People have been talking about taking off the rims by hand.


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

You could also probably get an acrylic tank made for around $100.


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

I just asked for a quote, from Glasscages, on a 58g(36x18x21) with Starphire glass and he said it would cost $220, while only $120 for regular glass. Is the $100 difference worth it?

IUknown, where'd you get your aquarium?


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

aquarium obsessed.com. Search through reef central on glass-cages.com. I guess their starphire isn't PGP but some lower quality low-iron glass.



> Is the $100 difference worth it?


That depends on your taste. Is the clarity of an acrylic tank compared to a glass tank noticeable to you?


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

Raul-7 said:


> I just asked for a quote, from Glasscages, on a 58g(36x18x21) with Starphire glass and he said it would cost $220, while only $120 for regular glass. Is the $100 difference worth it?
> 
> IUknown, where'd you get your aquarium?


Sounds like a good deal to me! roud:


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## Urkevitz (Jan 12, 2004)

Raul-7 said:


> I just asked for a quote, from Glasscages, on a 58g(36x18x21) with Starphire glass and he said it would cost $220, while only $120 for regular glass. Is the $100 difference worth it?
> 
> This sounds too good to be true, I would buy either one in a second.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

IUnknown said:


> 48x18x21
> * 4 sides Starphire glass - 1/2 glass"
> * All edges ground and polished
> * trimless
> ...


Is this a quote you got from aquariumobsessed.com?





Nokinja said:


> any of the 55g or higher Hagen frameless tanks have a centre brace


Thanks for the warning about the brace, but unless I'm misunderstanding their website, Hagen doesn't currently make a frameless tank over 55, brace or not.





IUnknown said:


> This might be your best bet if you are looking for the least expensive,
> http://www.glasscages.com/


I've looked at glasscages, and talked to them on the phone. Seem like nice people, but if you look at their tanks on their website, they look sloppy to me. If someone thinks my observation is poor, please say so. I've heard people say good things about them, and I've heard some people say other things. I know that's not substantiated, but I have not heard consistent raves. :icon_frow Their prices can't be beat, but I'm willing to pay (within reason) for a tank that really looks nice.


And I'd definitely prefer Starfire, but from the sounds of things, a 75g rimless tank (polished edges, neat silicone, and all that) will cost an arm-and-a-dillo for regular glass. And that has nothing to do with shipping. Once I find that, in good quality at a good price, then I'll see if there are enough shekels left for Starfire! :wink:

Still waiting on that quote from AquariumObsessed...


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

Lots of info,
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=491386
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s...=4219926&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending



> Is this a quote you got from aquariumobsessed.com?


Yeah, it might have been a lower price because the 20 had minor scratches.


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## Account_Cancelled (Dec 23, 2004)

> Thanks for the warning about the brace, but unless I'm misunderstanding their website, Hagen doesn't currently make a frameless tank over 55, brace or not.


Apparently not currently. I picked mine up about April of 2003. (120x40X60) I wonder whey they stopped? Hmm, hope there are no problems...


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

IUnknown said:


> Search through reef central on glass-cages.com. I guess their starphire isn't PGP but some lower quality low-iron glass.



I went back and looked up my notes from a conversation with glasscages. They use some low iron glass called Ultra-Weight, and Tom stated that they charged a $6/square foot premium for it over the cost of their regular tanks.

Still waiting on my quotes...


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Just an update...

Got a good quote from aquariumobsessed, too bad I have to factor shipping into it, because that really whacks the value proposition. And I'm getting multiple delays on an Oceanic quote. ADG kindly told me that due to location, and how shipping is handled by Oceanic, I'd get a much better deal locally. So when I get that I'll provide a full report. What I'm seeking quotes on is...


75 gallon, approx. 48x18x21 inches (L x W x H)
glass, not low-lead or other branded variety
clear, minimal and neat, silicone
frameless / rimless

Will let update when all quotes are in...


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

Scolley,
Also find out how thick the glass is that they are using. I was quoted 1/2" for a rimless 75 gallon. With regular float glass this might look green.


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## 29gallonsteve (Oct 4, 2002)

I have a 75 from GlassCages. The construction is good quality. There are some bargains out there that fall under the axiom of "You get what you pay for...". Glasscages is a good manufacturer, but they are not in the Oceanic/ADA 'elite' class. The price is very good for the quality. The silicone beads could be better, but not bad considering the price. They were very friendly and accomodating. The transaction (including the pickup) went smoothly...


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

IUnknown said:


> I was quoted 1/2" for a rimless 75 gallon. With regular float glass this might look green.


I never got a thickness. What should it be, assuming any bowing (at all) is completely unacceptable?

As for the green, yeah, I know. They also gave me a quote for 3 sided starphire, and with shipping here, it begins to add up. But the warning is appreciated, and something I assume I have to think carefully about. But at the same time, I'm getting a quote from Oceanic, and I assume that I run into the same "green" glass issue there. I would like to think they both sell a similar quality of generic glass.





29gallonsteve said:


> "You get what you pay for..."


Thanks for the recommendation. It's a very good point.

But my problem is that I am looking for very, very high quality silicone and glass edges. If I saved a few hundred bucks, only to get a tank that didn't look spectacular, I'd be really bummed. I could get lucky, but I also just might get what I paid for.

Too bad too, because they deliver to a location about 15 miles from me, making the whole equation dirt cheap by comparison to tanks from other vendors.

It's too bad you have to pay up front. If I could inspect the tank first, making clear my expectations, I could be great. But I don't think that's how they operate.


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## 29gallonsteve (Oct 4, 2002)

Steve,

Call glasscages and ask them for the ability to pay COD. I think that for the right situation and a good phone call, they may be able to accomodate...plus, it would 'persuade' them to increase their quality control on the tank...

Thanks,
Steve


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

Check these guys out, too. They also make frameless tanks (& I've seen their glass tanks in person & they're of great quality).
http://clearforlife.com/vg.html

I have one of their acrylics . . . wish I would've gone glass.

(UPDATE-- just called them--you'll need to find a dealer to go through. In any case, they build them quite large--some with no center braces, so with 2. All have a glass surround around the top edges, sort of like an acrylic aquarium. Starfire glass IS an option for the front panel, too.)


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

29gallonsteve said:


> Call glasscages... 'persuade' them to increase their quality control on the tank...


I did...
You want to know how to initiate a really lively conversation? Tell someone at GlassCages that you are interested in an "Oceanic quality" tank. Wow!

I never got around the COD question. They said that they do not do edge polishing, but are hoping to start within a couple of month and to call back. Fine. If I've not done something by then, I'll ask about the COD. Good advice though.





John P. said:


> Check these guys out, too...


Thanks, I did. They could not direct me to any retail channels anywhere near the east coast, only on-line vendors, and they only sell the Clear-for-Life, not the Visio Glass. Bummer.






John P. said:


> . . . wish I would've gone glass


Now THATS a bummer. I'm sorry to hear it. You've got such a gorgeous set up (love that stand!). But I do appreciate your sharing that insight.

Between the huge cost (with shipping), or inability to get a quality product, or not being able to get it at all on this side of the US, acrylic could have been an option that I may well have considered. Thanks for the advice.

Amazingly, as things are shaking out, the cheapest option by far may be to give up on frameless/rimless and go pick up a standard Oceanic out of an LFS inventory.

Wow! I never thought Oceanic would look like a "cheap" option.


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

You could always build your own tank!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

That's a joke. Right?

In this massivley DIY community, if you could really build your own tank, I'd expect to see plans and bragging rights to successful projects. I've seen some wild stuff built by DIY'ers, but not that!


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

Some glass, corner braces, etc. Wouldn't be the most difficult thing in the world.

It's out there.


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

John P. said:


> Some glass, corner braces, etc. Wouldn't be the most difficult thing in the world.
> 
> It's out there.


Check this DIY out


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Wow. I'm blown away!

Why don't you try it and let me know how it turns out. :wink: 

I've seen that car project of yours! You can do it - then let us all know how it turned out! :biggrin:


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

John P. said:


> You could always build your own tank!


Thanks to John P, I've been looking into that. And it is tempting.

I've located a glass fabrication facility nearby that will produce low iron glass sheets, edges ground and polished, in the sizes I need for much less than I can get a similar tank built for, and much, much less than the total cost when I factor in shipping. But there are two things I am having trouble finding...

1) Every link I find to calculate the required glass width seems to be for tanks that have some form of top brace or frame. Where can I find instructions for calculating glass width requirements for a braceless/frameless tank?
2) How do you calculate the size of the glass when factoring in the fact that the silicone some depth? How wide is that seam of silicone between the glass sheets supposed to be? I saw a link somewhere indicating that it increases with tank size in someway, but now I can find the link!

Anybody know?


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

Why don't you reconsider Glasscages? I've seen the tanks people posted on RC and they look pretty good for the price. Also, I read that he has become less sloppy with the silicone and you can take off the trim if you want to. Did you ask him if he could bild a tank to your specifications?


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks Raul-7. Good questions...



Raul-7 said:


> ...they look pretty good for the price.


Yes they do! But I'm trying for a really high quality end product here, not lowest cost. BTW - I know that's a little like someone one that can't play tennis to save their life paying a god awful amount of money for a racket. Kind of makes them look stupid! So when I get through with all this, and the end product is no big deal, you can all have a good chuckle. :icon_wink 




Raul-7 said:


> you can take off the trim if you want to.


Are you kidding? Surely tanks are built according to a given set of spec where removing structural support violates the design specs. Otherwise, why would Oceanic not just say "Yeah, pay the regular X for the tank, and we'll just charge a minimal additional charge to rip the plastic off." 
I assume that's because without the trim, the tank will begin to bow.




Raul-7 said:


> Did you ask him if he could build a tank to your specifications?


Yes. He said "no, call back in a few months." :icon_sad:


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

John P. said:


> You could always build your own tank!


OK JohnP. You started it...

I've researched tank building, and I'm ready to give it a shot. I've even gotten a quote from a local glass fabricator on some big, thick, low-iron glass. And it's a LOT less than I can get a rimless/frameless tank for, regardless of the glass type.

So I've placed an order for glass to build a test tank, just a 10 gallon long with cheap glass. I figure I have to...

1) see if I can do it
2) see if this company can turn out nice, polished glass
3) and most important, practice before I spend any real money

I'll let you know how it turns out. And for the record, I currently have 10 fingers and 10 toes. I wanted to just state that up front, just in case that changed in the process of building a tank. :icon_wink


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## Aphyosemion (Oct 15, 2004)

Haha, too funny, Scolley! We will expect an update on your fingers and toes when you are done!
As for the DIY tanks, while it sounds interesting, small tanks are cheap, unless you make them starphire. The larger tanks that would be where you would really save the money would be a disaster if one leaked or had a blow out on a seal.
I think I will stick with the professionally manufactured ones, heh.
-Aphyosemion


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

That's why I'm doing this - for practice before I make a big tank. Already priced it out, and the savings is large enough to buy some really, really nice metal halides with the difference!

Assuming of course I still have the digits required to get my wallet out of my pants...


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## Scissors (Oct 21, 2004)

Rest assured scolley, it seems all that's needed for building your own tank is gluing and measuring. Unless you happen to silicone your fingers to the glass and need to amputate them. :wink: 

I think the bigger problem with building a tank that large is the structural integrity, like Aphyosemion stated. If the ends weren't square or the seams were uneven, I'd imagine some sort of warping/leaking would occur in larger tanks that hold larger volumes of water.

I have a 10g that was DIY. The curing process went horribly and the aquarium is uneven (the water line is noticeably uneven) but it seems to hold since the water volume isn't too great and generous amounts of silicone was used. As long as you watch out for incorrect alignment of the glass I think you could build one. The article John P. mentioned before from about.com is a great step-by-step guide to DIY tanks. Although the glass width calculator is useless when you factor in that you want rimless/frameless.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks Scissors, before I decided to do a practice little tank, I read everything JohnP pointed me to and much more. Then I consulted a good friend that has been a "jack-of-all-trades" kind of mechanical engineer for the last 25 years.

The primary consideration appears to be the glass width. I've done a god awful lot of calculations that have led me to believe that for a 48"x18"x22" tank (approx 75g), that 1/2" is sufficient for a tank with no rim/frame/brace. I believe the "safety factor" would be about 4.9, which is a lot better than the recommended 3.8 overkill level, and worlds better than the 2.0 minimal safety level. That said, it won't really be that because it will have no rim! But I calculated the deflection (lost the notes) and it was SO small, that I was COMPLETELY unconcerned. Didn't even save the notes it was so good. Kind of an apparent dead issue. This I confirmed with my ME friend.

Silicone and the glass alignment is obviously another issue. Those two together are the primary reason why I'm building the trial tank. First to see if this fab can deliver glass to spec. And second to see if I can set it right.

Do you know why you had a curing problem? I've gone to all the local LFS's and measured the width of their 55, 75 and 90g tanks, and will be hoping to duplicate the same.

But hey, I might mess up the little test tank, and all this will be just hot air!


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

Ohhhh good stuff. I think you can buy corner braces at Home Depot. 

That reminds me--I have an awesome planted tank book (Euro,, translated) for the early -mid 80s that has step-by-step instructions for building a tank. Let me look into that for you.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

More instructions? Cool. Thanks!

What's a corner brace? Really.


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## Scissors (Oct 21, 2004)

The curing problem was solely due to incorrect alignment. The silicone holding the bottom piece shifted every so slightly (not enough tape) when it wasn't fully cured. The tank sits level because a bottom frame was attached but there is a noticeable "slant" on the water level.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks Scissors. Is the moral of your story "Make sure the glass cuts are square, the cut surfaces flat, and use plenty of tight tape"?


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

Some good ones,

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s...25&highlight=building glass tank&pagenumber=1

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=390652&highlight=glass+tank

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=96763&highlight=DIY+glass+tank


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Just an update here... As mentioned below, am building the small 10g Long as a test tank. Ordered the AGA Silicone, it's in. The glass is supposed to be ready Monday. But there is another item that I figured out that I'll need, that I had to order, which may slow me down since I'm waiting for that too. I'll tell you what that is...

I started worrying about maintaining the proper width of the silicone seam. It would appear that there is a certain amount of expansion and contraction that glass does, and having a bit of flex in the silicone provides for this. But there has been very little I can find on the web about this topic.

To check it our I went to several LFS to measure the gap between the glass, that is of course filled with silicone. As you would expect, the gap gets bigger as the tanks get bigger. And the 75's all have a little over 1mm gap.

So what I ordered is something that will help me maintain that gap. I'll be testing it out on to 10g long test tank, and should create a 1mm gap which is too large for that size, but that's OK. I don't think it will hurt, and it will let me know if the technique is going to work.

What that technique is... What did I order to support that technique? hmmmm... I think I'll tell you next week. :tongue: 

It'll either be a great surprise (I've never heard of this being done), or it will be a good laugh on me if it flops! Either way it will be fun!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Well, got thru with the first round of siliconing on the test tank today. All I've got to say is...

Whoaaa, what a mess!- and -​Silicone work is clearly is not my strong suit.


More later.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

scolley said:


> Well, got thru with the first round of siliconing on the test tank today. All I've got to say is...
> 
> Whoaaa, what a mess!- and -​Silicone work is clearly is not my strong suit.
> 
> ...


 Pics!
Pics!
Oh, and pics, if you get a chance. hehe


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## AquaNerd (Dec 13, 2004)

Yes and what was it that you used for the 1mm spacer between the glass panels?


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

No no... Not yet...

This is the TEST tank. No pics, no spilling the 1mm spacer beans.

IF this work, and that's a real big if, I'll build the Big Clear Kahuna and there'll be pics and explanations galore. But for now, just let me get that sticky crap off my hands, and out of my hair, in peace. :icon_cry:

Boy, I hate that stuff...


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

Did you see this post,
http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47877


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

No I hadn't seen that. Thanks. But if they hold to their original quote, I can get starphire, or one of the three or four rough equivalents, for about what it would cost for me to buy a similar sized Oceanic.

I've looked at 1" samples of 3 different brands of Starphire-like glass, and they are all remarkably similar, though some are a lot more expensive than Starphire. The people I'm dealing with are willing to go cheap on the glass if I'm willing to mix and match, based on the remnants they have on hand.

That's fine with me - it's all remarkably clear. Beyond that it's just a mix of brand names. I'm certain that anyone looking at it would never know the difference.

Problem is, based on my current progress with this 10g long test tank I'm building, I may not have the courage (or stupidity) to try to take on the Big Clear Kahuna.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I build all my own tanks.
I can offer some tips

Tape, use it!
Wait 24 hours for stuff to dry!
Use a razor blade(new clean) only to remove it. They have special solutions as well.
Use more clamps than you think you need.
Use thicker glass than you think you need.
Get sanded or light beveled edges.

Tape every side except the area to be sliliconed.
Use a T square to get the proper alignment.

I found a place that has sets of 5 tanks, all rimless, framless open top.
These are 10,6,4,3,2,1 gal sizes, they have bent glass fronts like most acrylic tanks. The 10 is 24L, the 6, 18" L, 12, 10, 8L
All great sizes! If you are close to Sac or the Bay area, you can get a set!!

Albany Aquarium in the Bay area is getting 3 sets of these. They are quite reasonable.

I bought two sets since making little tanks is a PITA and this was cheaper.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> Wait 24 hours for stuff to dry!


Yep. Unless you are particularly bad with silicone and it's so thick that it takes 48 hrs to dry (like me!)





plantbrain said:


> Use a razor blade(new clean) only to remove it. They have special solutions as well.


Thanks, figured that about the blades out the hard way today. Will be asking the glass people here about those solutions though. Razor blades and acetone are clearly not the way to get all silicone off glass. Will be asking them about a better way, 'cuz with this much work, I KNOW they've got a one.





plantbrain said:


> Use thicker glass than you think you need.
> Get sanded or light beveled edges.
> Use a T square to get the proper alignment.


Yup. Did that.




plantbrain said:


> Use more clamps than you think you need.


Based on the instructions found here , I've got no idea where clamps come in.





plantbrain said:


> Tape every side except the area to be sliliconed.


Wow! If I'm siliconing every side, and using tape to hold them together, how do I do that?





plantbrain said:


> If you are close to Sac or the Bay area, you can get a set!!


My bad luck. Massively east coast I'm afraid.


But mostly Tom thanks for the encouragement. This first tank is just a small 24" 10g long that I'm experimenting on to try out the techniques I would use for a 48" 75 to 85g all glass rimless tank.

Have you done this on medium (55 to 125) sized tanks? The techniques seem to need to be a bit different. Most importantly (other than criticality of glass thickness) being a reasonable amount of silicone between the panes - no silicone and assemble stuff. There seems to be some required minimums on silicone seam thicknesses to allow for glass compression/expansion in longer tanks.

Any feedback on that point would be PARTICULARLY appreciated.

Thanks.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*update*

Tested the test tank today. No leaks!

Really messy though to look at. Recorded all the lessons learned to post when I build the Big Clear Kahuna! Which I have decided to order the glass for!

Given the above decision, I'm increasingly comfortable with the monkey (yes I know it's really an Ape) avatar.


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

Great! I'm glad you are giving it a shot!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

John P. said:


> You could always build your own tank!


John P. You started all this. I'm not sure if I should thank you, or get really pissed. :wink: I suppose the jury is still out, waiting for me to build the Big Clear Kahuna. A 75+ isn't really big, but as far as I can tell from Internet roaming, it is the biggest I have seen for self-built, all glass, rimless tanks.

I've posted some pics below of the tank I built as a concept tank. It is unfinished, and it think always will be. I made the huge mistake of believing what I read on the Internet, that excess silicone could be easily scraped away and removed. What a crock of sh*t! Once that stuff cures, it is unbelievably tenacious. Good thing I approached this as a "throw away" if it didn't work.










As a consequence, I wound up with seams that are a lot wider than I'm willing to invest the time to painstakingly trim and clean (I'm talking maybe 4 hours a foot here!) But for the test to be valid, I had to trim at least one edge down to the "razor" minimum of silicone that I want. So I trimmed two. What I did not do after the trimming was the painstaking clean up of the residue. But it held water like a champ!

The moral of this story is that if you want nice seams, you've got to mask it off. Though I've not tried it, I have enough "feel" for silicone now that I'm certain it will work very well. Not even going to test it. I have confirmed that silicone can be easily masked in conversations with people that install all-glass shower doors.

The BIG issue for me has not been the silicone's inherent messiness. Masking tape will make that go away. The issue is SPACING. Indirect evidence on the Internet, visual confirmation observed in large tanks in pet shops, and discussion with my buddy the mechanical engineer all confirm that at any reasonable length, the bond between two panes of glass must have some slack to accommodate shifting loads and expansion/contraction. This tank was a test of creating a 1+ MM seam, consistently around the tank, that held water, and the glass.

My initial thought was to use multiple Chem-Marin dosing syringes, filled with silicone. The needle is very strong, and just over 1 mm thick OD. I was going to tape them in place (I bought a whole bunch of them!) and when the silicone was almost cured, to gently remove them, squirting the silicone in the hole as it's withdrawn. Instead, I found that people that install glass need spacers too, and I got a bunch of those from the glass shop where I got the glass. They're perfect - 1 MM thick, and silicone does not permanently adhere to it. And they were free. I don't know what they are called, but they've got to be easy to find. The glass shop had scads of them. There is a strip of several of them to the left in the pic below.










So I did the siliconing in two passes. First the major assembly pass. Then 48 hours later, I removed the spacers, and used the dosing syringe to squirt silicone in the gaps. My major fear was that THAT would not work - fresh silicone bonding to semi-cured silicone. I had to wait 48 hours because I didn't want the silicone compressing the 1 mm gap to something less. It had to support the weight of the glass.

So below are some unflattering pics. I do not have the time/patience to finish the trimming and silicone cleanup. 

Trimmed, but not cleaned, edges.









And this is what you start with, if you don't mask, or are not really adept and practiced with silicone!









Anybody need a 24"L x 8"W x 12"D all glass sump?


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Hold Everything - Important Update!*

Whoaaaa! I've got some clear glass on order, set to arrive in a week, to build the big tank. See this thread for the ridiculous details.

But while waiting for the glass, I've resumed my "due diligence" on my presumed assembly procedures, and came to a disturbing conclusion - the 1mm spacing may not be required at all. I went back and looked for the sources where I got this idea from, and could only find one. So I went back to multiple LFS' to inspect their tanks, where I clearly measured siliconed gaps of 1-1.5mm.

Well. Those gaps, upon very, very close inspection, were not what they appeared. In all the tanks that I can find now where those gaps appear, those gaps do not go all the way between the panes. They are the result of beveled edges on the glass, filled with silicone. So if you look at the glass from the vertical side, there appears to be a good sized gap filled with silicone - just like the one source I read on the web said was necessary. But if you take some calipers to measure the glass, which I did, you can find that the glass is thicker than the visible edge - i.e. - the edges have been beveled, so the visible gap is larger than the actual gap between the two panes of glass. Please see the diagram below for an explanation...










So, I've got to rethink the whole "spacer" thing before I screw up this glass. Since Tom Barr is the only one I know that has done this with a decent sized tank, I've got a PM into him, hoping for an answer to whether any space between the panes has to be accommodated for, or if you just press the panes together and let them dry.

Not going to do a d*mn thing with the glass until I get a good anwer to this one!


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## Ultramouse (Feb 24, 2005)

Effectline aquarium, its what i have, and looks waaaaay better than a normal glass Aquarium, especially once the backs painted black (with a black frame of course)










Its got no bracing, except a thin black plastic strip, which if it really bothered you could be removed, ive got a Overtank Luminare from Arcadia over the top, looks the nuts.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Hey Ultramouse, I gotta admit that that is one good looking aquarium there! Especially in the size shown, where the size of the rim is visually diminished by the size of the glass. But I can find no evidence of those being available in the States (where I am) :icon_sad: 

But hey, good for you anyway! Great tank! roud:


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

Nice find Steve, be sure to update us on the tank every step of the way. We can all learn something from your expierence. :wink:

BTW, Ultramouse is that your aquarium?!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

OK, it's confirmed by Tom Barr, and I'll paraphase... "Spacers, what spacers? Clamp those puppies down, squeeze 'em tight, let 'em dry, and fill 'em up!"

Sorry Tom. But that was the idea, right?

So now it's off to rethink those assembly instructions before the glass gets here.


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## rwong2k (Dec 24, 2004)

I recently purchased a 4 gallon rimless hagen tank, it was $14.99 CAD + tax,
and my 21 gallon rimless hagen tank was $39.99 CAD + tax, they're a little bit more $ than the AGA tanks with the black frame/rim, but it's not too overpriced, (that's for tanks 21,4,3,2,1 gallons that my LFS stocks) but a little bit more $, as for 50+ gallon tanks I haven't seen those at my LFS though

Raymond




John P. said:


> Are they priced reasonably?
> 
> I love the black siliconed seams, too.


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## Ultramouse (Feb 24, 2005)

Yes and no, I do have that exact same model, but i have the arcadia overtank luminare above it. I like to have an open top tank. 

The company they trade under in Europe is Ackvastabil, you might have better luck searching under that.

Id get some photo's of the actual set up, but its new, and got a bit of algie, im waiting for the floating bits of dead stuff to die off, then hopefully the light should penetrate a bit better allowing the plants to make better use of the C02.


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