# Slight BBA, but why?



## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

Any plant deficiencies that you can see?


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## bsantucci (Sep 30, 2013)

Nah none. Plants are showing great color and growth. 

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

bsantucci said:


> Mr. Aqua 48g. Been up about 2 months now. Pressurized co2, fair amount of surface agitation allowing me to run the co2 higher, drop checker is between green and yellow. Plants pearl daily. I do weekly 50% water changes, same time each week. I dose EI, skipping KNO3 as my nitrates sit around 30-40ppm w/o it. I dose KS2O4 and KH2PO4 along with Plantex CSM+B.


Every setup is different in terms of what kind of uptake is needed to keep BBA and/or other algae away. Sounds like your doing everything right, but it doesn't mean the bio-filter (plants/media) is enough to handle the organic removal in your setup in relation to your plant mass/lighting/fish load/feeding. Several things could help including more water changes/add carbon/purigen to filter, less feeding, less lighting. Obviously doing all these things is the best but sometimes it's not possible to reduce any further.


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## bsantucci (Sep 30, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> Every setup is different in terms of what kind of uptake is needed to keep BBA and/or other algae away. Sounds like your doing everything right, but it doesn't mean the bio-filter (plants/media) is enough to handle the organic removal in your setup in relation to your plant mass/lighting/fish load/feeding. Several things could help including more water changes/add carbon/purigen to filter, less feeding, less lighting. Obviously doing all these things is the best but sometimes it's not possible to reduce any further.


Thanks for the reply. I can add more info from yours.

The filter is established and seeded for the bioload I have. I moved from one tank to another, forgot to add that. Never had BBA in the other tank. There are less plants as I went from Dutch to Iwagumi.

I do feed only every other day, and I tend to feed on the light side, so it really shouldn't be food. I have purigen in the filter already actually. I do run dual LED's however at only 70% and suspended 9 inches from the water (23 inches from substrate).

Any other ideas? I mean I can reduce my lighting to less than 70%, but I can't believe it is that.

Like I said, I know how to get rid of it, just want to keep it from coming back!


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

bsantucci said:


> Thanks for the reply. I can add more info from yours.
> 
> The filter is established and seeded for the bioload I have. I moved from one tank to another, forgot to add that. Never had BBA in the other tank. There are less plants as I went from Dutch to Iwagumi.
> 
> ...


Not saying it's the lighting itself, just listed everything that could have an effect on your setup. If you went from Dutch to Iwagumi that would be big. All the co2 in the world will only have a marginal effect since the plant mass isn't that for uptake. Be wary of the one-two punch you don't want to loss your fish over a small algae issue. You could add carbon and/or increase water changes. Iwagumi setups are tough to keep pristine since you have to drive light to the bottom, but the plant mass is usually low. Easier to do with shallow tanks that require less light to reach bottom.


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## bsantucci (Sep 30, 2013)

Hmmm, what effect would carbon have over purigen that I'm already running? So you think it's just from build up of organics? I am growing out a giant forest of blyxa along the whole back wall, so hopefully that will help suck up more nutrients. This BBA is all I'm getting, no other algae. And it's just slight, around the edges of leaves on the plants.

I've done the one-two punch before to rid some other hair algae in the old tank w/o any fish issues, so I thought it would work this time. What else would you recommend to get rid of what I currently have? Just keep cutting the leaves that develop it? I could spot treat, but I think it would take forever since it's on a lot of the plant mass, just in small amounts.

Do you think it will kinda work itself out once the Star Repens carpet I'm doing gets to size and more lush?


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

BBA usually means a CO2 fluctuation so that would need to be addressed. A DC isn't sensitive enough to indicate these changes. Use the pH/kH table instead before the photoperiod, during, and at the end. Also keep in mind that ambient light can be enough to start the photoperiod long before you turn on the CO2 or lights. This is why I had constant BBA issues for months. Starting the CO2 at sunrise minimized the BBA and once I dialed the CO2 in, it's stopped growing.


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## bsantucci (Sep 30, 2013)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> BBA usually means a CO2 fluctuation so that would need to be addressed. A DC isn't sensitive enough to indicate these changes. Use the pH/kH table instead before the photoperiod, during, and at the end. Also keep in mind that ambient light can be enough to start the photoperiod long before you turn on the CO2 or lights. This is why I had constant BBA issues for months. Starting the CO2 at sunrise minimized the BBA and once I dialed the CO2 in, it's stopped growing.


I have a pH monitor as well on my Apex system. My starting pH daily is 7.46 and it drops to 6.4 or so each day, so I'm seeing a full point swing which should indicate 30+ppm, so it doesn't seem to be fluctuating co2. I run a fully pressurized system from GLA and don't touch it once I get a new tank refill each time. It's extremely consistent.

There's also no ambient lighting. The room is pitch black actually until the lights come on. 

That's why I'm so puzzled here. I've tried to remove all the variables that people say are BBA causes, and I just can't figure out why it's happening in my tank.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

bsantucci said:


> I have a pH monitor as well on my Apex system. My starting pH daily is 7.46 and it drops to 6.4 or so each day, so I'm seeing a full point swing which should indicate 30+ppm, so it doesn't seem to be fluctuating co2. I run a fully pressurized system from GLA and don't touch it once I get a new tank refill each time. It's extremely consistent.
> 
> There's also no ambient lighting. The room is pitch black actually until the lights come on.
> 
> That's why I'm so puzzled here. I've tried to remove all the variables that people say are BBA causes, and I just can't figure out why it's happening in my tank.


IMO you should never take any advice about someone pinpointing your BBA or other algae issues to Co2 if they haven't seen your tank. Co2 is completely dependent on plant mass. Co2 is not an algacide. It simply helps the plants uptake more. If you plants are healthy and your co2 readings are good it's more than likely not your co2. I gave broad strokes to other possible issues after reading your OP that your plants are healthy and your co2 is good. I have like seven some have no co2 and I do large water changes (flucatating co2 and no BBA). I have co2 setups that the co2 comes on with the lights (fluctating co2 and no BBA). One thing that has a positive effect on ALL setups is lower organics (water changes/carbon/purigen/plant mass/large bio-filter) and of course making sure the plants have what they need thru dosing.


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## bsantucci (Sep 30, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> IMO you should never take any advice about someone pinpointing your BBA or other algae issues to Co2 if they haven't seen your tank. Co2 is completely dependent on plant mass. Co2 is not an algacide. It simply helps the plants uptake more. If you plants are healthy and your co2 readings are good it's more than likely not your co2. I gave broad strokes to other possible issues after reading your OP that your plants are healthy and your co2 is good. I have like seven some have no co2 and I do large water changes (flucatating co2 and no BBA). I have co2 setups that the co2 comes on with the lights (fluctating co2 and no BBA). One thing that has a positive effect on ALL setups is lower organics (water changes/carbon/purigen/plant mass/large bio-filter) and of course making sure the plants have what they need thru dosing.


Agreed on the co2, that's the one thing that doesn't change. I mean, it goes on an hour before lights and off an hour before the lights are off, but that's a regular routine.

I do run purigen, but wouldn't carbon be overkill with it?

Since the tank is only 2 months old I seriously doubt it could be organics. Before my weekly water changes I use a turkey baster to stir up the substrate so I do get a lot of the junk off it. I'm not talking hurricane force stirring, just enough to lift anything off the surface. How would doing a second WC during the week affect EI dosing? Like I said, nitrates are 30ppm w/o dosing kno3, but I believe that is coming from the root tabs I put in when I set the tank up.

Here is a shot of my tank after my last trimming/moving things around to show it's not in squalor lol.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

The tank doesn't have to look 'dirty' to have too much organics. They will build up in the substrate. Now if you stirred things up (I never do that) you might have released nh3 into the water column, but again everything is related if you cut down plant mass and are running the same setup you might not have enough to uptake everything. I would rather have lower 'natural' nitrates and dose everything. This way you could do large water changes and not worry about anything running short. The inorganic salts that we add NPK will not cause algae issues, but by-products of organic decomposition will. 

What kind of lights are you running and for how long? 

No reason not to run both carbon and purigen if your having issues. It will only help they are similar in what they remove but are different and will increase organic removal.


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## bsantucci (Sep 30, 2013)

What do you mean by lower natural nitrates? By keeping organics down? How do you recommend cleaning the tank? I clean the filter ever two months and do the weekly changes sucking up whatever detritus I see. I don't stir it up like crazy, I just kinda whirl around the surface of the substrate to make sure nothing is just sitting on it.

I run dual BuildMyLed lights, 6300k and 10000k for 8 hours. 2 hours are spent ramping from 10%-50%, 1 hour ramping from 50%-70%, then 3 hours at 70%, then 1 hour ramping from 70%-10%, then 1 hour at 10%. So there is only 3 hours at the highest intensity I run.

Should I still be dosing KNO3 do you think even though my nitrates show 30% w/o it?

Also, I used new substrate in this tank when I started it, I didn't recycle the old.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

It's on only an hour before lights. It can take two or more hours for it to stabilize. So if the CO2 isn't stabilized by lights on, try turning on CO2 2 hours before lights.

Edit: another possibility: ramping up the lights increases CO2 use which can lead to a drop in concentration. If the lights were more stable, then CO2 use would also be more stable.


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## bsantucci (Sep 30, 2013)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> It's on only an hour before lights. It can take two or more hours for it to stabilize. So if the CO2 isn't stabilized by lights on, try turning on CO2 2 hours before lights.


My lights run 10%-50% over a 2 hour period, so it's not high lighting by any means. It's completely stable by the time the lights are full intensity.

I don't want to gas my fish, 2 hours before lights on seems a bit much.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I have all my lights come on with my co2 and go off with my co2. (one timer / two plugs) I have no BBA. It's ridiculous to debate co2 problems with your numbers are good and your plants healthy. I also do 50% water changes in the middle of the day so it takes a few hours for the co2 to go back up. I have no BBA. I do 50% water changes to non-co2 tanks with tap water again different co2 levels no BBA. 

If you had a tank with no plants and ran co2 would it kill algae like Seachem Excel? co2 is not an algaecide. It simply increases plant uptake assuming light and fert demand is met?


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## bsantucci (Sep 30, 2013)

Well I'm still completely confused as to the source of the BBA then haha.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I tried :icon_roll


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## bsantucci (Sep 30, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> I tried :icon_roll


I appreciate it. I know everyone points to co2, but I'm with you, it's steady and the right level in my tank, so I don't peg that as the culprit.

Just can't figure out what is.....


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

bsantucci said:


> My lights run 10%-50% over a 2 hour period, so it's not high lighting by any means. It's completely stable by the time the lights are full intensity.
> 
> I don't want to gas my fish, 2 hours before lights on seems a bit much.


When I was DIY CO2, it was run 24/7 without issues.

Also, another possibility, but highly unlikely in this case, is that vacuuming stirs up muck that gets into the water column. I've had a severe BBA outbreak the very next day after doing a vacuum of the substrate, which I hadn't done in more than a couple of months.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> When I was DIY CO2, it was run 24/7 without issues.
> .


What do you mean? Without issue?


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