# ADG Install at Picasso Exotics!



## Shango (Nov 13, 2010)

We just posted a great new video from ADG/ADA-US of a series of installs at Picasso Exotic Aquatics in Leawood, Kansas. They installed some freshwater and marine show tanks for them. The video, as usual from ADG, is incredibly well produced. We invite you to check it out. There are some surprises...like plastic plants!

http://www.tankgeek.com/2010/12/30/adg-install-picasso-exotics/


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

Whats up with the plastic in both tanks? This is borderline clown puke gravel with a castle if you asked me.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

That fake coral looks nasty. They probably use fake stuff so they don't have to maintain as much stuff.


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## tuffgong (Apr 13, 2010)

Wow, those scapes are awful with all that plastic. It's not a good thing when the best part of the scape is the equipment.


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## Cottagewitch (Oct 22, 2009)

This company is opening a "high end aquarium shop" and they had to hire someone else to set things up and give them lessons?


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## antbug (May 28, 2010)

chad320 said:


> Whats up with the plastic in both tanks? This is borderline clown puke gravel with a castle if you asked me.





EKLiu said:


> That fake coral looks nasty. They probably use fake stuff so they don't have to maintain as much stuff.


 
Ouch!


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## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

Nothing live? No live corals or plants? Well, that wouldn't be the case if I had something to do with it  
I would at least have one tank with live plants. Fake, plastic doesn't move like a living organism. Or feel


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## Lance Uppercut (Aug 22, 2009)

Lots of nice gear in there, must've cost a pretty penny to set that place up. Hopefully the economy in their area can support a higher end store of that nature.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

I would imagine that many of their customers would want minimal maintenance, so the need to set up tanks with fake plants and coral. Hopefully they will have some beautiful planted tanks as well.


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## BradH (May 15, 2008)

That store looks like it's going to be super nice! Looks like they spent a LOT of money on it. As for the fake plants and corals.... I think real would have been better, but maybe they can replace the fake with the real stuff later on when they get things rolling.


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

It takes a lot of expertise, as all of you know, to properly do an inspiring planted aquarium and a lot of long-term maintenance. For example - it takes more maintenance to keep the 60-P display perfect at ADG than it does to keep a 300 gallon hardscape only discus aquarium perfect in the same space - I'm talking like 30 minutes every two weeks to keep the 300 gallon tank perfect and at the very minimum spending one to two hours a week keeping the 17.7 planted aquarium perfect. The same goes for coral.

Since we aren't local to Kansas City (and thus aren't the people who will be maintaining the aquarium layouts), we provided something that was functional, easy to maintain and inspirational that could be kept up pristinely by the owners. 

We could have set up one of the best planted or reef aquarium layouts in the world for them - but it would have amounted to nothing but wasted revenue within a month. The alternative provides instant impact and longevity. It's not like these are petsmart plastic plants, and it's a pretty far cry from anything clown-puke gravel related. In this case it was a simple act of fulfilling the clients needs and requests.


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## Cuchulainn (Nov 2, 2010)

As for the fake plants and corals.... I think real would have been better, but maybe they can replace the fake with the real stuff later on when they get things rolling. Quote~

I really hope this is the plan, because otherwise Eww. I would rather see an air driven scuba diver in a show tank then that....stuff
Not a great way to promote the tanks or the new lfs imho

I suppose it makes good business sense to offer the low maintenance approach as well, but why would you want that in your front display windows turning a beautiful high end lfs into a dollar store front.

I do of course LOVE the driftwood pieces that were chosen


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## RipariumGuy (Aug 6, 2009)

Question for you Mr. Wazeter. Where do you get the fake plants? Yet again, some great tank builds from you guys. I especially like the half moon paludarium setup. Very cool.


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

Hey Jake, we have them custom crafted - if you are interested in some particular size and shapes then we can get a custom invoice for you for them.


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## TLE041 (Jan 16, 2010)

I couldn't get the fake plants out of my head after seeing that video. For a premium shop like this, using exclusively fake plants and corals is inexcusable. Shops like these are supposed to serve as inspiration and a launch pad for new hobbyists, but when all the display tanks are filled with nothing but fakes, the customer might as well go to Petsmart. If the shop owner specifically requested fakes because they're low maintenance, clearly dedicating adequate time for upkeep isn't a priority for them. I can picture all those fake plants being covered in algae in a few months. Might as well get plastic fishes while they're at it.

I laughed when I saw the guy set up all that expensive equipment for the saltwater tank filled with a ton of "high-end" fake corals.

-1 for ADG. That's just embarrassing.


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## RipariumGuy (Aug 6, 2009)

Francis Xavier said:


> Hey Jake, we have them custom crafted - if you are interested in some particular size and shapes then we can get a custom invoice for you for them.


Ok, thanks! I was just wondering, as I had never seen them before. Purely out of curiosity, do you guys use fake stem plants?


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

No +1 for ADG, they collected the $$$. -1 for the store.


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## TLE041 (Jan 16, 2010)

Francis Xavier said:


> For example - it takes more maintenance to keep the 60-P display perfect at ADG than it does to keep a 300 gallon hardscape only discus aquarium perfect in the same space - I'm talking like *30 minutes every two weeks* to keep the 300 gallon tank perfect and at the very minimum spending *one to two hours a week* keeping the 17.7 planted aquarium perfect.


That doesn't sound excessive to me at all. Remember, this is a retail shop, not a hobbyist's tanks. A few hours a week versus having all fake plants and corals...that's tough choice.


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## RipariumGuy (Aug 6, 2009)

TLE041 said:


> That doesn't sound excessive to me at all. Remember, this is a retail shop, not a hobbyist's tanks. A few hours a week versus having all fake plants and corals...that's tough choice.


What about the costs? All that coral/plants material and equipment cost a heck of a lot of moola. It was a good choice by ADG and the store to make them unplanted. I do agree though that the fake corals look horrid. Dead corals and rocks would have looked much better IMO. roud:


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

I suppose when it comes down to it, its the stores choice. Hopefully they'll be good owners and slowly switch them over. By the looks of it they have the $$$ to do what they want to.

On a more positive note, great work on the video. Your videos are always top notch. Just seeing the size of, or the equipment in either one of those displays makes me want to scape the crap out of them


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## trackhazard (Aug 24, 2006)

To play devil's advocate:

Being a pet retailer has nothing to do with whether or not you can design an eyecatching display.

Are you guys this disappointed at your local zoo because its displays were designed by someone else? Or uses fake trees and rocks?

As long as these guys aren't claiming the work was done by them, I don't see anything wrong. 

-Charlie


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## tuffgong (Apr 13, 2010)

I consider it a major contradiction of terms when you have a "high-end" LFS with plastic plants and fake livestock in their display tanks. ADG did a good job with what they had to work with. IME it just makes the LFS look bad and inexperienced. It probably would have been cheaper to get some real plants in there instead of having all of those fake plants fabricated.


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## BradH (May 15, 2008)

i just want to know if the store will make it. Seriously. I'm not rooting against them. I'm rooting for them. It looks like they spent a ton of money on the look and decor of the place. With the economy in crapper, will they be able to make a profit? I sure hope so. Looks like it will be a cool store.


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## elpezpr (Nov 12, 2006)

They could have used live rock for the reef tank along with the fake corals and it would not be hard to keep up.


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## Spachi (Oct 27, 2008)

I was just in that area 2 months ago. I suspect rent is not cheap there, and I hope they do well. Hopefully they get more than just window-shoppers.
Anyone know if they are open yet?


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## elpezpr (Nov 12, 2006)

I would love to see another reef setups by ADA.


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## gbose (Nov 21, 2010)

*Very Tasteful!*

I _loved_ the plastic plants. They will match the plastic fish -- coming soon in early Jan!! These come in two varieties. There's the standard hard plastic version, made of high-impact resin-polymer. But for the real connoisseur, there's the lifesize inflatable latex models with body parts powered by AA batteries. A bit pricy, but well worth the money! 

:hihi:

GB


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## evannave (Sep 15, 2006)

I normally only browse here but the level of rudeness in the replies to this video leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. While every ones taste and style is different to be so pointlessly mean about something that another person in the hobby clearly is proud of given the time they took to create these aquariums and then to edit and produce a video is surprising. At it best this is a forum for people to help each and further the hobby they enjoy. To belittle something in front of not only the person who created it but also to someone who is a sponser who pays to allow this great message board to thrive and whoose lively hood is based on their reputation is very strange to me. I would also point out that asking for help and more information is the kind of thing that will make that store sucessful in the long run because they are investing in there long term knowledge and ability to help their customers. Realizing that you still have something to learn is an great trait for a business to have. I wish them luck with thier new store.
Evan


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## Reginald2 (Mar 10, 2009)

I worked at a big box petstore when I first got out of high school. I regret that the store had animals. Employees are a major cost > fewer/cheaper employees = more money. I can't speak for an upper end retail store, but I imagine they have to play a similar game to compete. ADA/ADG were really creating markets, not joining them. 

It seems like a good idea to have some fake stuff in the window, not only to cut down on what needs to be maintained, but I mean It's in a window too.


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## FDNY911 (Dec 6, 2009)

+1 evannave. Can't believe your first post in 4 years as a member had to be this one. Well said either way.


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## antbug (May 28, 2010)

evannave said:


> I normally only browse here but the level of rudeness in the replies to this video leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. While every ones taste and style is different to be so pointlessly mean about something that another person in the hobby clearly is proud of given the time they took to create these aquariums and then to edit and produce a video is surprising. At it best this is a forum for people to help each and further the hobby they enjoy. To belittle something in front of not only the person who created it but also to someone who is a sponser who pays to allow this great message board to thrive and whoose lively hood is based on their reputation is very strange to me. I would also point out that asking for help and more information is the kind of thing that will make that store sucessful in the long run because they are investing in there long term knowledge and ability to help their customers. Realizing that you still have something to learn is an great trait for a business to have. I wish them luck with thier new store.
> Evan


+1. Why put down a shop that is building up our hobby? Fake or not, they look great and ADG did an amazing job.


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## fitness2go (Oct 13, 2005)

Remember, these are tanks with tons of ambient light (maybe even direct sunlight) on display for 9, maybe 10 hours or more, which if using live plants and coral would be nearly impossible to keep pristine algae free without hours of maintenance per week. The point is to cater to the masses with a very eye pleasing tank that is ultra clean and very easy to maintain in minutes per week. Almost every single LFS I have been to doesn't sell many plants and if they do, certainly not in any condition that I would buy them. In fact, I bought all of my plants here on TPT. Places like ADG, Aqua Forest and a handful of others fill a tiny niche that relies on mail-order/online business to supplement walk in retail. They specialize in planted tanks and see it as an art form, which isn't necessarily shared by the buying public. I haven't spoken to ADG, but I get the sense that in this economy a lot of potential clients would love to have a beautiful "live" planted centerpiece aquarium, but simply can't afford the amount of consistent maintenance that is required to keep it in top shape. They certainly aren't going to do it themselves. Of course, we would because we are a tiny group of planted tank nuts that thrive on this stuff. With that in mind, do a search on algae. Even on this website a lot of people struggle with it. Could you imagine having a business with a beautiful scaped/planted tank displayed in your lobby that just took a ultra fast left hand turn into algae'ville? That tank would come down fast. The bottom line is that these displays are huge high end tanks that are eye catching, easy to maintain and serve a purpose within a budget to attract the masses into their store with the purpose to sell to the average consumer. Just curious, is the store even going to sell live planted tanks or live coral?


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## RipariumGuy (Aug 6, 2009)

evannave said:


> I normally only browse here but the level of rudeness in the replies to this video leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. While every ones taste and style is different to be so pointlessly mean about something that another person in the hobby clearly is proud of given the time they took to create these aquariums and then to edit and produce a video is surprising. At it best this is a forum for people to help each and further the hobby they enjoy. To belittle something in front of not only the person who created it but also to someone who is a sponser who pays to allow this great message board to thrive and whoose lively hood is based on their reputation is very strange to me. I would also point out that asking for help and more information is the kind of thing that will make that store sucessful in the long run because they are investing in there long term knowledge and ability to help their customers. Realizing that you still have something to learn is an great trait for a business to have. I wish them luck with thier new store.
> Evan





FDNY911 said:


> +1 evannave. Can't believe your first post in 4 years as a member had to be this one. Well said either way.


I agree with you guys 100%. 

Just a quick question for you guys who think the plastic plants stink. DO any of your tanks look that good? Don't mean to be rude. Just sayin'! :biggrin:


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## BradH (May 15, 2008)

While I do think some people went overboard in their criticism... we do have to remember that this is a site about *live aquarium plants* so you have to expect some objection to the fake stuff. 

I'll be honest though. I thought the scapes were awesome. They looked very realistic to me, except I didn't care for the saltwater one that much, but it's just my opinion.


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

I really liked the freshwater scape, well everything but the air bubbles. The salt water though, not that great. I think maybe having some live rock, or dead rock even, then putting the fake corals on would look better.

Aqua Forest has a 180p aquarium in their window front, gets sun light as well, and they don't have issues with algae, although they are very small and have dedicated staff to maintaining the aquascapes.


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

although i agree, i prefer live plants. you have to give ada and that particular lfs some credit. 

when it comes to fake plants, those are THE NICEST FAKE PLANTS IVE EVER SEEN!! the fake coral, maybe a bit tacky. but its better to be tacky and clean than algae and dead


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## mrchach (Sep 8, 2010)

I tell you what... they may be fake plants. But I agree, theyre looking for beautiful and low maintanence. That is what they got.

As for comments to the integrity of the store because they hired ADG for tank designs.
They might not be planted tank afficianados. And they might not be the best aquascapers. But they might be some brilliant fish breeders and keepers.


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

These people getting all self righteous about using artificial plants and coral makes me laugh. Aquascaping as an art form is creating design, and artificial plants, rocks, wood, or corals is just as artistic as using the real thing. A painter uses all different types of paint. An illustrator uses different types of lead, charcoal, or ink. To an aquascaping artist, artificial items are just another tool. There is no sacrilege here. People outside of our hobby wouldn't give it a second thought at all.

I think it looks great. As an aquascaping fan I think its a wonderful alternative. As a lover of aquatic plants and living art, its not relevant.



> They might not be planted tank afficianados. And they might not be the best aquascapers. But they might be some brilliant fish breeders and keepers.


Are you talking about ADG? Do you even know who they are? They absolutely are planted tank afficianados. They have the only planted aquascaping art gallery in the whole country. They have won awards and aquascaping contests for their planted aquascapes. They are the closest thing to Amano in this country, but they are also a maintenance company and do reef and salt water.


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## kuni (May 7, 2010)

I really liked the "plastic" freshwater aquascapes. Elegant, simple to maintain, and eye-catching. They're not planted tanks per se, but they're great aquascapes.


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## wakewalking (Jan 18, 2010)

Wish ADG put up a video on how they do the plumbing.....unless the store converts these setups I don't see how this has much to do with plantedtank.net. Its basically pretty well done spam....I would hope the ADG guys do these tanks to pay for the real planted tank hobby....which is pretty sad.


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## mikeb210 (Oct 17, 2007)

Robert hit the nail square on the head. ADG has a website full of pictures and several dozen of those photos are of their planted tanks. 

Anybody getting all snotty about using fake plants needs to get over themselves first, then go look at the site before bashing an extremely talented group of aquascapers. 

Personally I don't at all mind the look of most of their fake planted tanks. Check out the 265 they set up for goldfish. Its beautiful and tastefully done where plants were not an option. 

Just because you don't like fake plants does not entitle you to some sense of superiority. ADG has definitely proven themselves in the planted tank category and they've also excelled at composing tanks which use fake plants, in a very beautiful fashion. That's not an easy task.

Anybody can grow plants. The art of this hobby is not in keeping weeds alive, its in using those plants or rocks or driftwood to create a serene and beautiful slice of nature and I say kudos to ADG for pulling it off near-flawless.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I think those tanks looked amazing and couldn't imagine the amount of maintenance that would be required on the FW tank even if it was a low tech tank. I dont even want to think about keeping a high tech tank that large, in a window looking pristine like it will the way it was set up in the video. 

This brings me back to my own personal experiences with a 50g tall that was in the waiting room at one of my dr's offices. It was horrible looking nothing even in the same galaxy as the tanks in the vid. After talking to my dr about it I found out that the tank was a rental of sorts that they pay a company to set up, stock and maintain for a monthly fee. I imagine that this store will be selling ADA/ADG products to walk in customers but probably doing the same type of thing that my dr was paying for too. 

Anyone who had anything but exuberant praise to ADG and the business the tanks was set up in is completely ignorant to any knowledge of what maintaining "real" tanks in that type of setting would require. Think about this, you may learn something. What do you think would happen to the water in a tank with that amount of real wood in it? It would be brown and look like dirty water. Then you have to take into account all of that wonderful DW mold that pops up on all newmy submerged DW for the first few months or so. What kind if perception do you think a common person with no knowledge about planted tanks walking down the streets would have? "Man that's nasty" " Those tanks are in a business that takes care of, sells and maintains fish tanks, they obviously have no idea what there doing" "If their tanks look that dirty I'm not having them do mine/letting them near any tank I want in my office/home/business". Most common people would have no clue that anything in those tanks wasn't real so now when they are walking down the street or in the store they will be blown away by the appearance of these tanks. 

I'm on my phone so I'm not going to go on anymore but just try to think about the whole picture before you put your opinions out for everybody to see.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Francis Xavier said:


> In this case it was a simple act of fulfilling the clients needs and requests.


Yep, they pay the bills, not the posters here.
I have a "hippo" tank I'm redoing for a client.
:tongue:

300lbs of malachite hippo right in the middle of the tank.
I swore I'd never......
Well, let's see how well I can make it look given this issue.

I try my hardest to train the clients if they do not wish an on going contract service. LFS are virtually impossible to train. So........these are good options for them. They need to be able to sell this product and wood etc and be able to do the install. Once they see ADG do it and the products etc, then they should be able to copy this somewhat.

Can you train them to do an ADA style planted tank?
Not likely. It could be done, but......just not likely.

But...........plastic plants on a planted forum_ is asking for mud to be thrown._:wink: Sort of like going to a reef site and posting fake coral.
Plastic fish anyone?

Cheesy ornaments?

Well, if that's what they like, that's their goal.
Now you'd better make it look good:icon_idea

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## FlSHRFun (Jun 26, 2010)

evannave said:


> I normally only browse here but the level of rudeness in the replies to this video leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. While every ones taste and style is different to be so pointlessly mean about something that another person in the hobby clearly is proud of given the time they took to create these aquariums and then to edit and produce a video is surprising. At it best this is a forum for people to help each and further the hobby they enjoy. To belittle something in front of not only the person who created it but also to someone who is a sponser who pays to allow this great message board to thrive and whoose lively hood is based on their reputation is very strange to me. I would also point out that asking for help and more information is the kind of thing that will make that store sucessful in the long run because they are investing in there long term knowledge and ability to help their customers. Realizing that you still have something to learn is an great trait for a business to have. I wish them luck with thier new store.
> Evan





Robert H said:


> These people getting all self righteous about using artificial plants and coral makes me laugh. Aquascaping as an art form is creating design, and artificial plants, rocks, wood, or corals is just as artistic as using the real thing. A painter uses all different types of paint. An illustrator uses different types of lead, charcoal, or ink. To an aquascaping artist, artificial items are just another tool. There is no sacrilege here. People outside of our hobby wouldn't give it a second thought at all.
> 
> I think it looks great. As an aquascaping fan I think its a wonderful alternative. As a lover of aquatic plants and living art, its not relevant.
> 
> ...





mikeb210 said:


> Robert hit the nail square on the head. ADG has a website full of pictures and several dozen of those photos are of their planted tanks.
> 
> Anybody getting all snotty about using fake plants needs to get over themselves first, then go look at the site before bashing an extremely talented group of aquascapers.
> 
> ...


Well said, all of you. Some people need to get off their high horses...


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

After watching the video, I don't see anything really wrong about the way ADG did the aquascapes. They actually look very good for what they were trying to create. 

That being said, I find it very hard to consider the store "high end" when they use plastic corals and plants. I can think of several LFS in my area that have large display tanks, both FW and SW, and use live plants or live corals. To me the using the real thing shows that the people in the store know what they are talking about. Plastic just screams to me saying that "we are clueless and have no idea on how to set up or maintain a large planted tank or a large reef tank".


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## wakewalking (Jan 18, 2010)

lol good business venture. well done, well done.....


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## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

JakeJ said:


> I agree with you guys 100%.
> 
> Just a quick question for you guys who think the plastic plants stink. DO any of your tanks look that good? Don't mean to be rude. Just sayin'! :biggrin:




MINE IS THE BEST OF ALL TANKSSS!!!! ...JUST KIDDING...


My first post wasn't meant to be degrading. Yes ADG did an amazing job, but as more and more people get into reef and/or planted aquariums I figured they would at least have a partially live tank; whether it be coral or plants. I think that the freshwater planted display looked nice, even though it was plastic. As for the store, I wish them the best. 

One of my favorite local stores closed down last summer due to this BS economy. (no need for it to be like this, people are just stupid with money, that's a whole different ball game). I loved that store, as they had some AMAZING tanks. When they first started the store, they had semi-live reef tanks that had SOME fake corals, but not all.

I think that if they, once the store is running smoothly, change over to live tanks it'll be easier as they do have pretty nice equipment.


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## Hookahh (Aug 24, 2010)

+1 Evannave. Ive seen many rude replies on this forum, if you have nothing helpful to say, dont even bother.


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## wakewalking (Jan 18, 2010)

Because censoring people is cool.....


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## Hookahh (Aug 24, 2010)

LOL CENSORING? This does not even come close, Its called being polite.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

wakewalking said:


> Because censoring people is cool.....


I don't think that's the point. I'm as big of a fan of freedom of speech as your likely to find but were adults (most of us) and this is a forum on planted tanks and relating topics. This is also a close community and setting where a mutual or certain level of respect exists. If of were a political/environmental/car club forum then inflamitory or aggressive remarks or comments would be expected. 

Opinions are what makes the world go around but there is a time and a place for voicing them in a certain manner.


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## wakewalking (Jan 18, 2010)

I am sorry if your feelings are hurt by some people disagreeing with some of the aspects of ADG. Was there really a question that this video wasn't going to be criticized because ADG is using fake plants on a website forum dedicated to growing live aquatic plants. People can say whatever they want.

It is sad that "adults" are so jostled by criticism on a forum...its a wonder why the economy is in the tank.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Again your missing the point. Just because we can say/do something dies no always mean we should.


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## evannave (Sep 15, 2006)

I was not trying to censor people. I am hoping to apeal to peoples better natures because I think everyone on this forum has valid and helpful things to say but sometimes with out meaing to they come across in manner that does nothing to help others learn but only serves to demean others. However it will always be up to them to decide what they feel is the line were constructive crtitisim and just being rude is. Often times online people behave in a manner they never would dream of doing in person and I am only advocating that they consider the effect of their words. I hope people would not tell someone they think their tank is ugly and disapointing in person. I was raised to only say what you would say in front of someone to their face. 
Evan


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## Reginald2 (Mar 10, 2009)

bsmith said:


> Again your missing the point. Just because we can say/do something dies no always mean we should.


I completely agree. Recently, some public figures have seemed to confuse freedom of speech with _everyone has to listen to me_. You're free to say whatever you want, but someone might call you out on it. They wouldn't be infringing on your rights for reminding you of your manners or refusing to listen to whatever you said/say.

As for the link between a thread on an internet forum and the economy... well... um... I don't guess I can argue with that.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I'll take the devil's side here.

I got poo pooed for it once when I asked the AGA about using them in their competition. I also use to use nice real looking plastic till I saw the light. Do any of you know of any respected competition that would allow plastic plants for their aquascaping competitions?

I do not.

If I posted fake plastic fish, no matter how pretty, do you think it would fly well on a fish forum? Say I had nice glass hand blown fish, very pretty colors/life like? I think it's nice(what ADG did) etc, but it is asking for a good poo poo. We all expected live plants, live corals etc, and got fake on the video.

I understand *why* they did it, just odd that it would be posted here on a live plant forum, much like posting it on a live reef forum for fake corals, or plastic fish on a live fish forum.

Plastic plants are awful hard to grow after all.

You all can get into the semantics and all that manure, but.........the bottom line is that the forum is plants and these are NOT plants, they are plastic.
No horticulture or gardening aspects are involved here. That involves something living in the scape. Wood? No, not living now, same could be said for rock, like limestone, it was living at some point in the past as well.

Can you do a nice scape for a tank using plastic and wood etc?
Sure. Does it belong on a planted tank forum? Well, if you cannot enter it in planted tank competition?

I don't know. I would not. Why not ask some judges of planted competitions?
I do not think they will be too agreeable. 



Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Keep on topic people or I'll show you some censorship 

There's nothing wrong with different opinions, just don't attack a person or persons.


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

Just for the record- we (ADG) did not post the video to the planted forums, a third party blog who thought it was cool shared the link.


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## jsenske (Dec 20, 2004)

Thank you for clearing that up Frank! I was really bummed to hear that this vid was posted on this forum. It has no place here and we are asking for whatever criticisms or general shellacking may come our way by it being here. My apologies to the planted tank.net community for this. We would have never put it on here ourselves. 
The store will be doing extensive live plants and i should have mentioned in the video that we will be going back up to do several planted tank displays and to assist them with doing a very proper live plants holding system with good light, co2, etc. The store is very intent on doing things right and they admitted that if the took on planted tanks right away while still trying to get settled, they might run the risk of being in some way compromised. The staff is very reef-knowledgable, but still new to plants. They want to get their footing in the new store, and ease into Live plants so that they can do it right and with a focus. 
Live planted aquariums are not for everyone, and as a retailer, this store wants to offer options and inspiration. These decorative freshwater tanks are a great, low-maintenance introduction for many into learning the basics of both aquarium-keeping and aquascaping at the same time. We like the idea of folks learning about composition, design, AQUASCAPING in a lower stakes setting, AND THEN move up to a planted tank. Crazy, I know.


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## FDNY911 (Dec 6, 2009)

That makes total sense ... No reason for people to bash ADG or the Pet shops choices. Looking forward to seeing how the store evolves.


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## jsenske (Dec 20, 2004)

elpezpr said:


> They could have used live rock for the reef tank along with the fake corals and it would not be hard to keep up.


They have a huge 10 ft. reef tank gong in that the staff is doing themselves. They will sell lots of corals, etc. I only showed what we were involved in, though we did quite a bit of consulting and design modification on their reef installation. I had footage of us talking about that stuff but it was kind of boring content for this video overall, so I didn't include any of that stuff. 

Sorry again for insulting the aquarium intelligence of anyone on this forum with by showing artificial plants being used. I personally love all styles of aquariums, and can appreciate any tank that is well composed and conveys its philosophy effectively (always in the eye of the beholder, indeed). These tanks have their place and purpose, but that certainly does not mean you have to like it.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

No need to apologize jsenske. Some people can get a little zealous about plants here 
Although, live plants can knock your socks off.

Hope to see you guys set up a low-tech, undemanding tank with live plants like anubias, crypts, ferns, and moss in the future.


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## jsenske (Dec 20, 2004)

Ok. Thanks. 
We've done dozens (maybe into the hundreds) of such tanks in our career. 

Our new retail store will (re)set the record straight once open this year. We will show how it's done. This store in the video was simply one of many consulting jobs we do, and they were far along by the time they called us.

With our foray into video and many on our Facebook page, etc. seeming to enjoy them, I simply documented this trip. Didnt expect much of a reaction I guess.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

jsenske said:


> Sorry again for insulting the aquarium intelligence of anyone on this forum with by showing artificial plants being used. I personally love all styles of aquariums, and can appreciate any tank that is well composed and conveys its philosophy effectively (always in the eye of the beholder, indeed). These tanks have their place and purpose, but that certainly does not mean you have to like it.


I actually took the time to watch the video since it is getting a lot of criticism. Quite honestly, it seems like we are reacting strongly due to the use of fake plants but aren't thinking about the main stream aquarist. To me, the design layouts are great even with the fake plants. Look at the last aquarium. How is it not 1000% better after? If I were still into aquariums sans live plants, I would think this was fantastic and try to mimic it. It gives the non-planted a chance to see the possibilities without the maintenance.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Adding plastic plants is still better than no plants or any sort:icon_excl
Just another aspect, side of the hobby. Plenty of folks want marine and cannot and do not want to be troubled by live corals/inverts. Same for live plants.

This might be a stepping stone, folks often have it in the back of their minds that they would really like live plants/corals etc, but are not sure, insecure at first, over time, this may change.

Still, I got some serious poo poo when I used them from the plant crowd.
They had a point, but so does plastic/fake.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jsenske said:


> Thank you for clearing that up Frank! I was really bummed to hear that this vid was posted on this forum. It has no place here and we are asking for whatever criticisms or general shellacking may come our way by it being here. My apologies to the planted tank.net community for this. We would have never put it on here ourselves.
> The store will be doing extensive live plants and i should have mentioned in the video that we will be going back up to do several planted tank displays and to assist them with doing a very proper live plants holding system with good light, co2, etc. The store is very intent on doing things right and they admitted that if the took on planted tanks right away while still trying to get settled, they might run the risk of being in some way compromised. The staff is very reef-knowledgable, but still new to plants. They want to get their footing in the new store, and ease into Live plants so that they can do it right and with a focus.
> Live planted aquariums are not for everyone, and as a retailer, this store wants to offer options and inspiration. These decorative freshwater tanks are a great, low-maintenance introduction for many into learning the basics of both aquarium-keeping and aquascaping at the same time. We like the idea of folks learning about composition, design, AQUASCAPING in a lower stakes setting, AND THEN move up to a planted tank. Crazy, I know.


Don't you guys have plenty already from the contest and ADA events?
You can post a few of those.

I agree about the lower stakes, many are initially insecure about plants, some need an easing in, but most would like to have a live reef or planted tank. 

I think you could slip a few plastic plants into a live planted tank and many would never know it if you where sneaky. I threaten to do that in an AGA contest years ago, caught some hell for the threat:tongue:

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> Yep, they pay the bills, not the posters here.
> I have a "hippo" tank I'm redoing for a client... I try my hardest to train the clients if they do not wish an on going contract service. LFS are virtually impossible to train. So........these are good options for them. They need to be able to sell this product and wood etc and be able to do the install. Once they see ADG do it and the products etc, then they should be able to copy this somewhat.
> 
> Can you train them to do an ADA style planted tank?
> ...


+1 I think that pretty much says it all. 

The very high end market many times doesn't care if the arrangement is real or not. It's about visual impact and how it will look in one's home/office. This is also true on the salt-side as well with many upscale setups including mostly fake specimens. You can't expect customers and even LFS to be in love with live plants as much as you and I that is the reason it's being panned here. Even if you use all ADA product in the tank there is still a need for a maintenance discipline that many will not pay for or understand. 

A big part of the reason ADA and other professionals tanks look good is because of this discipline/culture to take care of it. If ADG is not there, then that all goes away.


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## spaeth05 (Jun 30, 2010)

I was surprised to see this store was located in my area! This is about 15 minutes from my house so I will likely stop by when they open. I just called and spoke with someone there who informed me they will be opening likely on Friday or Saturday this week. I'd be happy to stop and take a few pictures to share with everyone so we can see if in fact they have a variety of live scaping options in addition to the fake stuff. I'm really excited about the prospect of a high quality shop nearby as I've found the shops around the Kansas City area to be a bit lacking...

The location is in an extremely high-rent area...so I'm not terribly excited about the pricing though.


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## Sushieraser (Jul 28, 2010)

I have to say that I really like these tanks, fake plants be damned. To those wondering about the integrity of a store having someone else set up their tanks. What these people did is no different then a furniture store paying an interior designer to come in and design those little rooms they have setup on their sales floor. Like that furniture shop, this and most pet stores will sell you the lamps, end tables and rugs oops I mean fish, plants and tanks you'd need to make a beautiful planted tank but they don't design your tank for you. They show you something lovely, sell you the parts you'd need to create something all your own and help you with the logistics of setting it up. Also we saw 4 tanks out of an unknown number the rest of which will be scaped and filled by the staff, they will be doing the vast majority of the work in the store. If they wish to have a few pieces done in a style they are not all that well versed in yet to inspire themselves and the customers, where is a harm?


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

sewingalot said:


> I actually took the time to watch the video since it is getting a lot of criticism. Quite honestly, it seems like we are reacting strongly due to the use of fake plants but aren't thinking about the main stream aquarist. To me, the design layouts are great even with the fake plants. Look at the last aquarium. How is it not 1000% better after? If I were still into aquariums sans live plants, I would think this was fantastic and try to mimic it. It gives the non-planted a chance to see the possibilities without the maintenance.


I agree. Honestly, the guys from ADG achieved scapes that are countless times better than many of our "real" tanks... This is for a retail space that wants something that always looks good, not just part of the time... 

That being said, Francis DID post this on ADW... and that seems odd to me. The comments there though have been much less presumptuous. 

I am not sure what about the internet allows people to say things so harshly and crude, but it is certainly a factor. Simply saying something is not your personal taste would do...

Most LFS I go to have horrid, drab tanks with clown puke and castles. This is a huge improvement over that! 


Seems silly that so many people feel so outraged by this all. ADG doing tanks like this is what helps keep them in business to offer us the rest of their products.


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

over_stocked said:


> I agree. Honestly, the guys from ADG achieved scapes that are countless times better than many of our "real" tanks... This is for a retail space that wants something that always looks good, not just part of the time...
> 
> That being said, Francis DID post this on ADW... and that seems odd to me. The comments there though have been much less presumptuous.
> 
> ...



You are correct that I posted this at ASW, the reasons being that that community, while very much based on planted aquascapes is by and large very receptive to all forms of aquascaping. While obviously there is always the preference for a live planted layout, its whole premise isn't specifically built on plants like TPT and APC.

Where as TPT and APC communities love plants specifically and emphasize aquascaping as a result of that, ASW loves aquascaping specifically, viewing the plants as merely a tool of design but as a result emphasize plants.

This subtle nuance builds into what good community specific content gets directly posted where so we can be as appropriate as possible to the content emphasis of each community in our beloved hobby.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

All this aside, these are very clean tanks and are at no lower standard than the tanks we've come to expect from you. Merely being different does not mean they are not done well. 

Sent from my DINC


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## TLE041 (Jan 16, 2010)

Why not post this video at Reefcentral? I'm sure those members would be interested in all that fancy equipment.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Francis Xavier said:


> You are correct that I posted this at ASW, the reasons being that that community, while very much based on planted aquascapes is by and large very receptive to all forms of aquascaping. While obviously there is always the preference for a live planted layout, its whole premise isn't specifically built on plants like TPT and APC.
> 
> Where as TPT and APC communities love plants specifically and emphasize aquascaping as a result of that, ASW loves aquascaping specifically, viewing the plants as merely a tool of design but as a result emphasize plants.
> 
> This subtle nuance builds into what good community specific content gets directly posted where so we can be as appropriate as possible to the content emphasis of each community in our beloved hobby.


As I've mentioned I agree with the LFS situation. Afterall it is a Local FISH store and for the most part the fish are the focal point not the plants. Big reason why salt is bigger than planted. As the expression goes "It's the Fish Stupid", but I think over at ASW it's a double-edged sword. On one hand you don't have as many collectors, but you do have more hardcore aquascapers mainly from different countries where planted is more prevalent. I guess we'll see what kind of commentary is received.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I do agree with Jeff's comment about teaching them design 1st, then plants later (perhaps if they agree to it). This is a good point to make and drive home.
Folks can teach them to grow 1st.......but then the plants look all poorly laid out, and not a good visual impact. With good design.......then they look much better(say 5x or more).

So this sells better on both counts.

Most come to the forums with algae, plant health issues, less so for design problems or advice.

So there's a disconnect there.
This would be a good goal to focus on strongly to benefit the hobby.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

houseofcards said:


> As I've mentioned I agree with the LFS situation. Afterall it is a Local FISH store and for the most part the fish are the focal point not the plants. Big reason why salt is bigger than planted. As the expression goes "It's the Fish Stupid", but I think over at ASW it's a double-edged sword. On one hand you don't have as many collectors, but you do have more hardcore aquascapers mainly from different countries where planted is more prevalent. I guess we'll see what kind of commentary is received.


Yes, that is a biased group to be certain, as well as the growers on other boards vs the those that can both grow and scape.

Still, ADG did not post this, it is a 3rd party. And I think the point Jeff made about design being taught 1st is a very wise comment. Teaching folks to grow, prune, etc is easier.

Aquarist, LFS etc, all need practice, a video or a book will not teach you what is needed, you learn by doing:icon_idea
It's like reading a math homework text and not doing the assigned problems.
Come test day, you will fail and not know the material.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I think also a big part of why the comments here are so 'colorful' is because many don't consider the use of fake plants aquascaping. I personally don't consider aquascaping only plants, because you can have some very nice 'aquascapes' with just hardscape, but that hardscape is usually 'real' rock and/or wood. Those seem to go over fine here even though there are no plants. In general you can aquascape I guess with anything. Who can really say it's not, but in terms of the planted communities I think it's a given that the scape will be real. ADA has a very big influence on aquascaping these days and that was born from a nature photographer who I believe invisioned duplicating that nature in a glass box. Same can be said for dyed or glo-fish. Even though they are living the 'fakeness' of them come through especially when put into a nature aquarium.


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## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

If someone told me I could make a tank look like that with fake plants... I most likely wouldn't have real ones right now! I found the displays stunning works of art. The aesthetics are wonderful, and those tanks would add a nice touch to any room. I do prefer real plants, but to have all that without the cost, equipment, and maintenance of a high tech tank is very appealing.

I also found the video very humorous. If I were local to this area, I would love to stop in and shop there.


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## willbldrco (Mar 24, 2007)

Sweet store! But OMG - I sure hope those windows are north facing and they see alot of cloudy weather in Leewood, KA.

Will


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## immune (Dec 18, 2010)

JakeJ said:


> What about the costs? All that coral/plants material and equipment cost a heck of a lot of moola. It was a good choice by ADG and the store to make them unplanted. I do agree though that the fake corals look horrid. Dead corals and rocks would have looked much better IMO. roud:



My lfs is not high end at all and they have only real corals in their salt tanks. The show tank is HIGHLY planted with corals and anemones for the clown fish they house...

and the shop I am speaking of looks like a rickety shack on top of a unmowed lot....

I am not insulting the work of those who put these tanks together but the choice to not use live corals would tell me that this "high end" store is all flash, no substance, and run by people who probably care more about money than happy fish.

Maybe if this store spent less money making the shop interior look like a posh bar they would have the money to hire employees who knew how to maintain live plants and corals properly.

Just my opinion.


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## Knotyoureality (Aug 3, 2012)

immune said:


> My lfs is not high end at all and they have only real corals in their salt tanks. The show tank is HIGHLY planted with corals and anemones for the clown fish they house...
> 
> and the shop I am speaking of looks like a rickety shack on top of a unmowed lot....
> 
> ...


And if you'd read thru the entire thread, you'd have seen that they DO have staff who know there business and DO have live coral tanks they'll be maintaining--but that they're just getting started as a store AND still learning how to properly handle life freshwater plants. 

While I don't find the tanks attractive *as a live tank enthusiast*, I can appreciate the eye appeal and the store owners desire to ensure they can keep that window appeal pristine for a higher end market population. In any economy, setting up a business is a juggling act. There are a LOT of business owners smart enough to take advantage of currently lowered leases in high rent areas to be able to put their stuff out there where the money still shops. That rinky dink shack might have tremendous stock and staff, but it's not going to entice a novice high-roller into the shop as they walk by on their way to get a latte. 

No different than the patently artificial editorial shots in a fashion magazine. They're meant to present a concept in an eye catching manner.


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## TexasCichlid (Jul 12, 2011)

Big minus on the plastic stuff. A lush, but low light and low maintenance tank could have been done for the planted tank. Since display tanks are used for inspiration and to drive sales, I don't understand why they would not have opted to show off things they could sell.


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## thesawguy (Dec 26, 2011)

Texas Chiclid and knot your reality... did you notice the dates on those posts? Thanks for topping the thread though, very interresting. So how is this store doing a year and half later anyway?


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## TexasCichlid (Jul 12, 2011)

fitness2go said:


> Remember, these are tanks with tons of ambient light (maybe even direct sunlight) on display for 9, maybe 10 hours or more, which if using live plants and coral would be nearly impossible to keep pristine algae free without hours of maintenance per week.


Plants don't cause algae. It will be more difficult to control algae in that tank without plants as nothing in there will be competing for nutrients against the algae.



thesawguy said:


> Texas Chiclid and knot your reality... did you notice the dates on those posts? Thanks for topping the thread though, very interresting. So how is this store doing a year and half later anyway?


I didn't notice the date, just looked at the most recent reply and went to page one to view the video. Looks like they are still open and the scapes in the video still intact.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

TexasCichlid said:


> Plants don't cause algae. It will be more difficult to control algae in that tank without plants as nothing in there will be competing for nutrients against the algae.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't notice the date, just looked at the most recent reply and went to page one to view the video. Looks like they are still open and the scapes in the video still intact.


I think the point there is that a non-planted, non-coral tank could have a MUCH lower light level.. The amount of light needed(and normally supplied with tanks) to view fish is lower than required to even grow low light plants. Long photoperiods plus ambient or direct sunlight do make algae much more likely. 

None the less, I do find it entertaining that we all have opinions on this yet none of us run fish shops. Few people here really understand the complexity of running one of these shops, nor do they understand who spends most of the money in these businesses. "Serious" hobbyists really only account for a tiny percentage of the pet industry.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

OverStocked said:


> I think the point there is that a non-planted, non-coral tank could have a MUCH lower light level.. The amount of light needed(and normally supplied with tanks) to view fish is lower than required to even grow low light plants. Long photoperiods plus ambient or direct sunlight do make algae much more likely.
> 
> None the less, I do find it entertaining that we all have opinions on this yet none of us run fish shops. Few people here really understand the complexity of running one of these shops, nor do they understand who spends most of the money in these businesses. "Serious" hobbyists really only account for a tiny percentage of the pet industry.


I totally agree and of course it's a biased 'minority' here. Nevertheless there is a market on the high-end for artificial reef and planted in which color can more easily be added to match one's decor and of course paid maintenance to keep the tank always looking good is more realistic. ADG does this on the high-end as do most other companies:

http://www.aquariumdesigngroup.com/#mi=2&pt=1&pi=10000&s=0&p=1&a=0&at=0


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## Qwedfg (Mar 7, 2012)

TLE041 said:


> Why not post this video at Reefcentral? I'm sure those members would be interested in all that fancy equipment.


 If you thought the reception was rough here...posting this on reefcentral would be at least 5 times as bad I would imagine... IMO the set up and equipment was seriously legit and the aquascapes were good regardless of the fakeness of the plants but.... Lets be honest for the people talking about maintenance. 99.999% of the LFS near me are terrible and most of them have a reasonably attractive "show tank" in the store, whether its fresh or salt. I think its kind of a cop out to say its too much maintenance, especially considering they are labeled as a high end store.


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## wipp0034 (Aug 26, 2012)

Its not a planted tank if there are no plants.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

wipp0034 said:


> Its not a planted tank if there are no plants.


Did someone call it a planted tank??


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## wipp0034 (Aug 26, 2012)

> Did someone call it a planted tank??


It was posted on a forum called "The Planted Tank." I'm not mad bro, just having a lel


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

wipp0034 said:


> It was posted on a forum called "The Planted Tank." I'm not mad bro, just having a lel


If this forum only talked about planted tanks it would be half empty. We've for sections dedicated to herps and all kinds of not-planted things....


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

OverStocked said:


> If this forum only talked about planted tanks it would be half empty. We've for sections dedicated to herps and all kinds of not-planted things....


It actually brings up an interesting point. This discussion is taking place in the General Planted forum, maybe there should be a forum for Non-planted. There's a forum as you pointed out for herps, there's also one for photography, etc., but if you have a non-planted setup it would technically fall in the Lounge with "Hey check out my new bicycle" or "I just had waffles for breakfast". I mean this setup is no more "planted" than a tank with a little treasure chest is a discovery of long lost missing jewels.


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## wipp0034 (Aug 26, 2012)

houseofcards said:


> It actually brings up an interesting point. This discussion is taking place in the General Planted forum, maybe there should be a forum for Non-planted. There's a forum as you pointed out for herps, there's also one for photography, etc., but if you have a non-planted setup it would technically fall in the Lounge with "Hey check out my new bicycle" or "I just had waffles for breakfast". I mean this setup is no more "planted" than a tank with a little treasure chest is a discovery of long lost missing jewels.


dingdingding


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## CatSoup (Sep 21, 2012)

Take a breath guys. The shop probably doesn't have the time and labor maintaining real plants and corals would take. Sheesh 

Nice hardscapes anyway.

Wow, old thread. lol


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