# rooting hormone?



## Patriot (Dec 22, 2010)

It most likely will come off in the water. Try it on emerged plants to see a better difference.


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## auban (Jun 23, 2012)

i dissolved it and added it to the water. i didnt dip the plants in it. its a bit of an odd way of going about it, but i remember extracting the same hormone from willow branches that were chopped up and soaked in water. plants to be rooted were simply soaked in the water. i figured if it works with willow extract in water, why not my aquarium plants? after a week or so, ill do a water change and see how it did.


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## auban (Jun 23, 2012)

this is what i mean. the rooting hormone powder is completely dissolved into the water. it may make no difference, but who knows. maybe a treatment of rooting hormone like this can be of benefit? either way, i will only let the tank run like this for a week. im not afraid of cloudy water, not in the slightest. i have never done water changes for cloudy water, not even for green water blooms. cloudy conditions usually take care of themselves(though i dont expect this to do so.)

the tank has composted cow manure mixed with kitty litter as a substrate, capped with paver base. the plants are all less than two centimeters tall. they were planted yesterday. i am also running diy co2, with about 4k lumens from cfl bulbs, 6500k.


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## Patriot (Dec 22, 2010)

It could work if the stem can absorb it. I'm interested to see if this works. what plants did you use. Next cutting the stem a little a apply the hormone to it, let it sit while stay moist for some time then plant into the tank.


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## auban (Jun 23, 2012)

i used fragments of rotala indica(probably actually rotundifolia though) and m. umbrosum. the fragments had been floating in a 65g for a week, long enough to give them time to shoot off some tiny roots and a bit of new growth.

btw, what branch are you in? im army.


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## Patriot (Dec 22, 2010)

auban said:


> this is what i mean. the rooting hormone powder is completely dissolved into the water. it may make no difference, but who knows. maybe a treatment of rooting hormone like this can be of benefit? either way, i will only let the tank run like this for a week. im not afraid of cloudy water, not in the slightest. i have never done water changes for cloudy water, not even for green water blooms. cloudy conditions usually take care of themselves(though i dont expect this to do so.)
> 
> the tank has composted cow manure mixed with kitty litter as a substrate, capped with paver base. the plants are all less than two centimeters tall. they were planted yesterday. i am also running diy co2, with about 4k lumens from cfl bulbs, 6500k.


cow manure will most likely fry your plants.


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## Patriot (Dec 22, 2010)

auban said:


> i used fragments of rotala indica(probably actually rotundifolia though) and m. umbrosum. the fragments had been floating in a 65g for a week, long enough to give them time to shoot off some tiny roots and a bit of new growth.
> 
> btw, what branch are you in? im army.


I'm in the Air Force stationed in Korea right now. Going to McChord AB next.


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## auban (Jun 23, 2012)

the cow manure wont fry my plants. i have been using it for several years now. 

my dad went to korea when he was in the airforce. he always told me that the airforce would treat me better than any other branch. being young and dumb, i joined the airborne infantry instead. as of late though, i am reclassing into a different MOS.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Patriot said:


> I'm in the Air Force stationed in Korea right now. Going to McChord AB next.


Hi Patriot,

When you get to McChord and get around to setting up your tank visit The Fish Store in Seattle for plants....along with the generic FL plants they buy a lot from GSAS members so you will find a lot of plants that you don't typically find in a LFS. Also please visit a GSAS meeting as a guest, excellent speakers (last meeting was Christel Kasselmann!) and you won't want to miss the 'mini-auction' at the end....fantastic plants and bargain prices.

Thank you for your service.


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## Patriot (Dec 22, 2010)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Patriot,
> 
> When you get to McChord and get around to setting up your tank visit The Fish Store in Seattle for plants....along with the generic FL plants they buy a lot of GSAS members so you will find a lot of plants that you don't typically find in a LFS. Also please visit a GSAS meeting as a guest, excellent speakers (last meeting was Christel Kasselmann!) and you won't want to miss the 'mini-auction' at the end....fantastic plants and bargain prices.
> 
> Thank you for your service.


Thank you so much for the info! That will make things a lot more interesting for sure.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Rooting Hormone - Should work, if you pulled the plants, applied the powder or gel and allowed some time out of the tank for the rooting hormone to be absorbed into the cutting site. It works by being drawn into a fresh cut and being absorbed by the plant at the 'wound' site. Same goes for trimmed roots.

I would pull the plants, make my cuts, apply the powder, wrap in damp paper towel, and place in the veggies drawer of my fridge for a few hours. Then replant.

The cool damp environment will allow time for the rooting hormone to be used by the plant without undue stress to the plant.

Adding it directly would have a very low probability of working.


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## Patriot (Dec 22, 2010)

But what aquatic plants would take so long to root that you would need it? It seems they root pretty fast.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

When I use rooting hormone it's to save a very stressed out plant, typically from shipping problems. I also use it to transition submersed plants to emersed growth.


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## Patriot (Dec 22, 2010)

But does putting a stressed out plant through that process put it under more stress? You have to cut into it, wrap it in paper towels and then throw it in the fridge for a few hours. Rooting also uses energy to produce too right? Can you help me understand how does rooting hormones help stress? I'm confused now.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

OK lets try again. 

I use it as a last resort if I think the plant is about to die. Think shocking a heart with defib paddles. At that point you have nothing to loose.

Putting an Aquatic plant in damp towels in the veggie drawer with slow down the metabolic activity i.e., and allow for some time for the cells to absorb the Boric Acid of the rooting hormone.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I've used it a few times and did some fairly basic test in the past. 
Never found it helped vs the stems that were not treated.

Good for some terrestrial species, aquatic just a rooting machines as it is. 
Why? They have to be, they get washed away, they must transport lots of O2 to the root zones etc(far more than terrestrial counter parts).

Their own endogenous abilities with plant growth regulators does the trick. I do not think they need more encouragement.

Dr Kane at UF and FAN also have little support for the rooting plnt growth regulators, Gibberillians perhaps for flowering, but most aquatics do not respond like the terrestrials.


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## auban (Jun 23, 2012)

well, i dont like to rely on what people speculate. so im testing it.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

auban said:


> well, i dont like to rely on what people speculate. so im testing it.


So if you test, make sure to dip each stem and then another set without the treatment.

Keep one group on one side of the tank, then he other on the other side ideally.
Then take 1 stem out each day and inspect the roots/amount of growth etc.

If you cannot tell a difference visually after 1-2 weeks..........
The other thing is to be specific about which plant species are affect/are not etc.

While we lie to suggest we tested it, basically most are just tossing it in and praying. Which is very little testing and a lot more speculating.

Some simple things can help answer some questions.

Super Thrive has been used for years and years for planted tanks, but no one has shown any difference. It also has the same plant growth regulators as most rooting hormone mixes like "Miracle Grow rooting hormone". It does not cost that much to fiddle with, but PGR's really do not offer much utility for aquarium hobbyist.

Even if they did, you still need to address the basic building blocks of growth, light/CO2/nutrient sot amplify growth and get different allocation patterns, you do not get something from nothing by adding them. It just changes resource allocation.

Since we only really focus on growing stems and asexual clonal parts, we really are not interested in growing more roots or flowers/fruits etc.


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## auban (Jun 23, 2012)

im already growing it. i simply dissolved the rooting hormone powder in water and added it to the tank. ill set up another one as a control. if i notice a huge difference, i will test it again. 

it may work in larger than normal doses. i added the powder last night and it has already cleared up some, most of the powder has stuck to everything in the tank. since indole-3-butyric acid is not water soluble, i imagine most of it is bound to the powder base. 

the only benefit it would have that i can see is to promote new roots to grow. these pieces took about ten days to develop a few roots while floating in water under bright lights. for the most part, i clipped the parts of the stems of that had roots, so any root growth now is going to be new.

i have noticed that the greater the root system on both of the species i used, the faster they grow in general. makes sense.


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## auban (Jun 23, 2012)

i just looked up superthrive. it uses a different hormone.


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## auban (Jun 23, 2012)

well, i didnt see any difference between the tank with the hormone and the tank without it. i guess thats not really surprising. had to try it though.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

10 days is a long time for roots. I usually have decent starter roots on my plants in 1-2 days from trimmings in my tanj
3x4 days from someone elses.. like tom said aquatic plants root fast when given everything they need


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## fplata (May 20, 2012)

auban said:


> well, i didnt see any difference between the tank with the hormone and the tank without it. i guess thats not really surprising. had to try it though.


Which PGR where you using and at what concentration, I have done extensive tests on PGRs (over 16 of then) some auxins and kinetinins in the correct ratio will have a positive effect, but in my experiments the control environment did just fine. Super thrive uses NAA which oddly so is a very untestable PGR. I spent 3 months running my tests and over 2k on PGRs and equipment. I posted some of my findings at the barrreport.com. I am continuing to test PGRs at specific ratios, etc, I am seeing their effects on aquatic weeds and algae, but as of now I have found them of very little value to the hobby. If you want your cryps to flower, I can help with that. Heck if you want gloss to flower emerged I can help with that as well 


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Another one of those great science project ideas for a student. 

I don't believe there is a valid argument that using Root Hormone doesn't work when used as designed. 

There is a valid point about how necessary it is. 

It's not unlike fuel additives for your car. You car will run fine on regular gasoline, better with a fuel additive. Will you notice the difference and is the difference worth the effort to you are the questions.

The more I'm involved with cloning in Aquaponics the more value I see in using Root Hormone. Is it need for the average Aquatic Stem Weed, probably not.


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## fplata (May 20, 2012)

I do agree with you, when ever cloning plants you certainly will benefit heavily from PGRs. They gave a purpose! I just don't believe they are for the hobby as a mass, certain individuals will benefit for sure, I'll continue using them because I have a 10 year supply 


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## auban (Jun 23, 2012)

i really dont know the dosage. the rooting hormone i used was indole-3-butyric acid, and i tested it on rotala indica. i used one teaspoon per 5 gallon tank, but i have no idea how much hormone actually made it into the water and to the plant. all i know is that powdered root hormone with indole-3-butyric acid doesnt do anything for rotala indica when added at one teaspoon per 5 gallons. i may need more, but i have begun taking on other projects that are more to my liking, so the tanks are currently in use for something else. maybe ill get back to it someday.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

auban said:


> well, i didnt see any difference between the tank with the hormone and the tank without it. i guess thats not really surprising. had to try it though.


So what would you tell the next person who posed the same question then?
Old saying: "it is good to learn from experience, as long as it's not your own."
Folks make mistakes, and that is how we learn(well, some of us anyhow).

I think you and other hobbyists would be much better served focusing on CO2 and light. Seriously. 

Aquatic weeds have few other allocation properties other than biomass vegetative growth. This means the basic building blocks of growth are the limiting factor(light, temp, current, cO2, ferts), not adding more external PGR's. 

PGR's mostly just change the allocation of resources. They do not magically make plants grow faster. Many folks, not just in the hobby, seem to have a real issue with understanding that concept.

Aquatic weeds also have the option/ability (so do terrestrial plants also if you use fertigation) to take in ferts from the water column, and the roots serve mostly as anchors/storage organs or as a back up if the water column is removed or becomes limiting.

Cedergreen and Madsen's paper(2001) even trimmed off the roots entirely and the plants had the exact same rates of growth in a nutrient rich water column. A very good paper for those interested in aquatic plant regulation and resource allocation.

Cloning, TC etc, then sure, but that's a very different goal and approach. 
Folks muddle the two with aquatic plants and these other applications. 
Good news is they do not cost much for many of the things. I've yet to meet a single person who reported any difference, it's been a good 15-20 years of looking. 

Odds are not good or in anyone's favor.


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## fplata (May 20, 2012)

I fully agree with Tom. However IBA needs to be dissolved on hydrochloric acid (hci) before its mixed with water. And if your powder was 100% or near 100% you will need a concentration of .0001 pm to .01 ppm to further complicate the issue you need to use a ratio of kinetinins and auxins to get any real results, but not in a weed, you will see results in a higher plant. Also some PGRs are used as weed killers. All PGRs are doing is overwriting nature, the presence of them provokes a response from the plant. A lot of the plants in our hobby are weeds and do fine on their own. Back to Toms point, I do not think there really is a value for these PGRs in the hobby, unless you are doing your own advanced propagation. That being said, I have seen interesting results on cryps, Anubias, bucephelandra, and glosso






as you can see its very leggy, this plant started with 4 leaves and 1/4 inch of roots 6 days later I had what you see in the picture, however regardless of light and co2 I was never able to get these plants to carpet, where they carpeted with no issue with out the PGRs.






Above are some of test tanks. 


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Gibbing the Crypts will help with flowering IME.
For many that do emergent growth, the PGR's are go for that. 

2,4,D is a classic synthetic PGR herbicide(auxin).


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## vqfive (Nov 5, 2012)

I've never had any problems getting any plant to start roots. I've had plants stems rot out but that happens rarely. I don't see any need for rooting harmones in submerged plants. for emersed plants as mentioned it can be more a benefit.


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## auban (Jun 23, 2012)

i dont really see a need for hormones, i just wanted to try it. if someone else wanted to try it, i would tell them my experience and let them decide if they want to try it. who cares if there is no actual NEED for it. someone will find a use for it.

lets use rooting hormone as an example; if it actually made a difference in rotala, i would have set up a tank with a lot of tiny floating pieces, added the hormone, and grown them into a thick floating mat. i would then see if that floating mat made it easier to aquascape. it doesnt work in a normal tank...

there is plenty to play around with in this hobby.


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