# 55 gallon Tank Journal



## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Rather than start a new topic every time we want to share tank pictures, maybe we should follow the format on some other aquatic sites and start "Tank Journal" threads in which you can continually ressurect the same thread and post additional updates.

Anyway, I did some MAJOR uprooting last night. I'm wanting to head in a new direction with this tank so I totally tore out the right side of my tank and planted E. tennulus in its place. I want a grassy field!
My lucky sister just started a planted tank and she is getting a magnificent mother Anubias coffeefolia, some MASSIVE Sagitarria subtulata talllll, lots of Sunset Hygro, Crypts and some tall Anubias lancelota. It's going to cost a bundle to ship this box! It's two feet long by 6" x 6"!

Anyway, here's the tank right after replanting. Lousy pic, a bit cloudy (from replanting) and I switched my PC's to the front (to encourage grass growth) which my Kodak DX4330 had a hard time adjusting to.


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## Glud (Nov 26, 2002)

Looks great! I think if you make a E. tenellus site only it would look really cool, especially if you make very thick forrest on the left side. Good luck!


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

That's what I'm aiming at. Also, that driftwood has just gotten swarmed by the jungle and covered up. I want it to stand out a lot more. What better way to accomplish that than having it stand out in a grassy field?


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## Glud (Nov 26, 2002)

Yeah, it would look so cool, to let it be sorunded by gras only. Maybe you can cover some of the driftwood with moss/ferns?


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## SNPiccolo5 (Oct 6, 2002)

I have found that when it comes to almost anything, strength in numbers is true! I had an elaborate foreground planned out, but have decided to go to a single plants (type of plant, that is) foreground... Great tank, it will be cool to see how the tennelus fills in....

-Tim


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

Sam thats gonna look awesome ! 
Its heart wrenching ripping up them plants though aint it , LOL ! However they are going to a place that you can at least know they have a shot at survival instead of going in the garbage can... :hehe:
That gallery you posted has started a wave... and Im riding it with ya bro... 
I have been searching "foreground" plants out for my 56G and I keep coming back to the tennulus myself... it is natures simplicity at its very best !

Love the Look Sam !

And by the way... I think thats a great idea on the doing a Tank Journal . It will keep things cleaner on the boards


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Yeah Aquarium Design Group really and truly has some talented personell. Those tanks are amazing. Buck, I'm totally envisioning your 56g like that one square tank with E. tennulus and Vals along the rear. Simplicity. It's like a slice out of nature. Not an entire river packed into four square feet like my tank is now. And all that swimming space makes the fish look so awesome. You need to select your fish very carefully. I would do a large number of one kind of fish. Make sure and start a journal for that tank as soon as you start pouring gravel!


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Just posting an updated picture. My three day blackout has just about eliminated the Green Water, but the plants are looking a bit lean and funky.
A few new additions from cvarcher (thanks!) riccia on top of the driftwood on the right, baby tears in front center and on the right, and some rotala wallichi hiding in the right rear. Oh and there's some pennywort hiding in the grass on the right, see if you can find them all!

I'm picking up my CO2 cylinder today, so things should be cranking again in no time!


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## molahs4 (Jan 9, 2003)

Is it just me, or are there no pictures in this post? I would really like to see the evolution of your tank, but the post comes up without the images.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

When we moved to the new forum software last week, it seems attachments were lost. You can see pretty much all of these pictures on my Tank Journal at my website, here:

GulfCoastAquarian's 55g Tank Journal


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Updated pic:
You can see my new plants (thanks Ghori and Cvarcher!) and a significant change. I removed my driftwood for its annual scrubbing and cleaning and when I put it back in, I decided to flip it around. Well, a nice surprise was that the other side was a lot more attractively colored and shaped! The stargrass (_Didiplis diandra_ and _Rotala Wallichii_ aren't doing well at all but all my other new plants are growing well (_Lindernia rotundafolia, Baby Tears (Micranthemum umbrosum), Pennywort, Riccia and Hottonia palustris_).


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## Work In Progress (Mar 4, 2003)

Wow thats pretty!


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## geekgirl (Feb 4, 2003)

Wow! flipping the driftwood really changes the feel. I like. I'll bet you see even more of the clowns now with the dw caves facing out. 

The dw in my tanks have lots of holes, tunnels and caves. I have 5 zebra loaches in there, and they swim through the caves all day long, except for one big fat loach who just sleeps in his cave about 23 hours a day. I swear, he only comes out at feeding time. To see him you have to get out the flashlight, stoop down and look in his hidey-hole. Then you can see one fin and about 1/4" of stripes. Too funny!

It looks like the e. tennellus has put up with the changes well. Mine melts a little when I disturb it too much. I think my tank temp is too high. Did you have to transplant much to get it to fill in toward the front glass? Mine is putting all the runners out towards the back.

Stacey


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## m.lemay (Jul 28, 2002)

Beautiful tank Sam ! I really like the aquascape. That piece of driftwood has a lot of character. :wink: 

Its amazing how the aquascape changes in a matter of weeks as the plants grow in. Nice Job.

Marcel


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Thanks for the compliments Marcel. I really appreciate them! And I certainly agree that a matured tank certainly does take on a unique character. Patience is hard to come by but sometimes the best things do indeed come when you just wait.

Stacey, my clown loaches are generally very active anyway, but I finally saw my kuhli loach after moving the driftwood after not seeing him for at least 6 months! I also remembered that I had a Spotted Rafael cat, too! Hahah. I actually moved the Rafael to another tank, though. No sense in additional bioload that you never get to see.

The E. tennullus certainly does take a while to get over the fact that I dared pick it up and move it, but I haven't disturbed it in a while so it definitely has started to grow in more full. I'm having to prune and pick at dead or dying leaves constantly, though. I like it to have a clean look. For some reason, I just can't get it to spread through the middle section. I'll plant a few large bunches there and they don't do well and end up uprooted. I think that center section is the exit to the large Sailfin Pleco's cave under the driftwood. So every time he comes out and makes his grand entrance, he distrubs the new plants too much and sets them afloat. A few long runners are making their way towards the middle,t hough and soon it will fill in, I'm sure.


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## GW (Feb 21, 2003)

GulfCoast, how tall does your e. tennulus get? Yours seems to stay nice and low while mine gets to about 9 inches. it grows fast and spreads easily. 
I really like the look of your tank.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Thanks GW! My E. tennullus grows about 2-3 inches tall but a few blades will get 4" high or so. What kind of lighting intensity do you have? Maybe the plants are reaching for more intense light.


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## GW (Feb 21, 2003)

I have 96watt pc lighting over my 30g. I'm guessing that either my tank is too tall (21 inches), my glass top prevents light from reaching the bottom effectively, or maybe its because i dont put any ferts in the gravel besides the flourite. any ideas?


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## SNPiccolo5 (Oct 6, 2002)

Gorgeous tank! I can't wait to order more plants for mine! I think the E. tenellus will spread to where conditions are optimul (though mine once put a runner under a piece of driftwood in the dark, lol!) so if you move your brightest light, or concentrate your lights in the front, then that should help.

-Tim


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## geekgirl (Feb 4, 2003)

That's what I thought too, that the e. tenellus would move toward lighted areas, but mine is actually runner-ing into shady spots. Very odd. But like I've said before, tanks (to gardeners) are like yards in miniature. Even though you think you know EXACTLY how a plant ought to behave in a certain spot, there is no reliable way to account for microclimates. Something is making my chain sword run for the shade. If I can figure it out... Maybe I'll adjust the position of the lights for a few weeks to see where it goes next.

Stacey


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

The tank is looking tremendous Sam, all the hard work really shows ! 
It seems everyones tennellus is heading for shade, I think you all just planted it backwards... _*or*_ maybe you all bought *"Dislexic Tenellus"* :lol: 

*Buck* 8) 

:stupid:


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## SNPiccolo5 (Oct 6, 2002)

Lol! Well, my experience can't really be taken b/c it was in an eclipse 12 with just over 1 wpg, so it was basically "in the shade" no matter where it was! Lol!

-Tim


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## dlwarnock (Jan 16, 2003)

Really looking good.

David


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Thanks for all the great comments, guys. Your encouragement seriously inspires me to aim higher. I am hoping to have a display potentially worthy of entering in the AGA contest. Maybe not this year, but next.

As for the E. tennulus discussion, now that all this has been mentioned, it seems the dwarf swords actually grow taller in directly lit areas and somewhat shorter in some shade. You can see it off to the left, shaded by the crypts and swords. On the right, where it is fairly open with only the baby tears and rotala out back, the E tennulus is getting a ton of light and growing quite tall. Also, that's where I most recently added Jobe's sticks. Rich nutrients in the substrate definitely seem to impact tall growth.

Thanks again!


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## ellectric (Mar 8, 2003)

GulfCoastAquarian, what is the name of that tall plant in the pic you posted on the left side with the light pink tips?


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

That's Sunset Hygro ( _Hygrophila polysperma 'Rosanervig' _ )

You can pretty much control the color of the tips with light and nutrient levels. High light and low nutrient levels make it turn a bright red and high nutrient levels makes it turn greener. It grows REALLY fast in the right conditions and can survive in even less than desireable conditions.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Everything looks great!! Maybe a bit too good... you didn't Photoshop _those_ photos did you? :wink: :wink: :wink: 

All kidding aside, wonderful job. You should be very proud!

Mike


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Hehe, nope, no Photoshop here. But you know, when you enter photos into the AGA Aquascaping contest, you're actually allowed to do quite a bit of Photoshop editing. Aside from the obvious color/contrast corrections and cropping, you can actually edit out heaters, cables, tubes, etc. and clean up the background. So if you have a few particles floating around or some spot algae on the back glass, you can actually clean those up. You'll notice most of them have these seemingly impossible black backgrounds. That's because they've been cleaned up. I need to take some more recent pictures, and after I do, I might 'prep' a picture or two to show you what I mean.

But thanks for all the compliments.


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## cousin it (Nov 1, 2002)

looking very nice there


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## AussieTanker (Dec 13, 2003)

*as they say in the real estate industry ... your tank really has that WOW! effect... *

it really is fantastic .... you should be very proud of your achievement ... i just stumbled onto this thread today and found it very inspiring ....i have been struggling with getting my own first planted tank going and have been very discouraged ... (altho on the bright side i am learning HEAPS!) 

i really love looking at pics of beautiful planted tanks like yours... they are really works of art ...

pls keep the thread going ...let us know how the plants are going .... it would be really cool if you could post a "map" of the aquarium in its various "incarnations" with the full list of plants within the aquarium and a brief rundown on how they are going .. problems and solutions etc ....it vwould be a great help for newbies to the hobby to get a more successful start......


anyway ... congratulations on a great tank ..... pls keep up the great work ... thanks for sharing your art....

regards,
aussie tanker


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Aussie, thanks for the high praise. I'm very flattered. You're right, though, this Journal is in pretty dire need of an update. Unfortunately , the tank is going through a pretty bad dry spell. Some plants are growing fine, but some just about died off. I'm having trouble figuring out why but expired test kits have a lot to do with it. I'll go ahead and post some pictures in its current state, though, to show how important it is to keep your test kits up to date. In the long-term, we rely on these test kits information they give us and when the plants don't grow in spite of that information, you have to question their reliability.

So don't be discouraged about your learning curve, even a four year old tank goes through its problems!


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Just found a few really old pictures of the tank when I first started out. Pretty dreary, haha.


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

> Just found a few really old pictures of the tank when I first started out. Pretty dreary, haha.


Well where are the NEW photos Sam ? Is your camera on "time out" ? :lol:


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

The camera is fine. The tank looks like crap. Things just aren't growing. I can't figure it out. 
NO3: 7ppm
PO4: 0.8 (both test kits less than a year old)
KH: 6
pH: 6.9
CO2: 26-28ppm
Dose 1/2 tsp K2SO4 once a week and 1ml Plantex CSM every other day.

The only time things really grow is the day right after a water change. The leaves aren't yellow or have holes in them. Things are just growing slow, as if there wasn't enough light (two 55w GE 9325K bulbs and two 2xODNO Gro-Lux bulbs!) or not enough CO2. 

I think I might have an accumulation of something or another. I need to do some major successive water changes.

I'm also suspecting water movement. The Fluval just isn't flowing like it used to. Water is pretty still. I dunno.


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## ^iMp^ (Oct 12, 2003)

Are you fertilizing the substrate at all?


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Yes, somewhat. I'm using Jobe's 13-4-5 sticks, cut into 1/4's under the e. tenellus and Crypt wedntii, which are still not growing the way they used to.


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

With those parameters you should be trimming weekly Sam... :roll: 
Very strange... are they old bulbs maybe ? If they are not showing deficiencies then the ferts should be fine, I wouldnt dose any higher... hmmm. How about the water temp maybe, plants dont do well at higher temps.
I guess Im kinda stretching it now... Dunno man, very strange indeed...although if there is no algae and it looks nice then it sure does cut down on trimming time. :roll:

As I read back on your post you say after water changes it seems to grow, maybe the micro's in the tap water are supplying something that you need that is missing in your Plantex CSM... dump it and try some Flourish for the micro's... it wouldnt hurt to try but all the Plantex nuts might have something to say now... LOL

I have to keep thinkin on this one...


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Thanks for scratching your heads with me on this one, guys. Here are some pictures. There is some spot algae, and a little BBA algae that the SAE's have been slacking off on, but for the most part the algae is minimal. 
This batch of Plantex I'm using is an unrefrigerated mix that is about 1-2 years old so I switched to Flourish and Flourish Iron (had some brittle plants) for a few months and noticed no change in growth (but the brittle stems went away).
Maybe I'm not dosing enough. I dunno. I've heard of some preeetty high dosages with Plantex - like otherwise said.
Bulbs are from that GE 9325K group purchase last fall. Can't be that! They are blackened a bit on the ends, though. 
Temp is 78F. Seems about right. 
Now, since I added a rattling, noisy old 600lph powerhead, some of the plants have started to mount a minor comeback. Most noteable is the E. tenellus that was nearly completely wiped out and has grown in (quite a bit smaller than last summer!).
Old leaves seem to die off quick. The Giant and Sunset Hygro grow new, healthy leaves, but the old ones die off so quick, the plants look leggy and sparse. The glosso really hasn't ever taken off, either.
It's got to be related to the tap water, don't you think? Either the tap is providing something I'm not normally dosing, or it is taking away something that has accumulated in this four year old tank.


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

Your hygro is starving Sam, it is only getting enough nutrition to get the new growth but not enough to sustain the entire plant. I had similar results in another tank.
That glosso is indeed in need of a kick, you have the lights, you have the CO2 so that leaves "nutrition" again...


What else could it be... everything else that is "measurable" is present... :wink:


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## m.lemay (Jul 28, 2002)

Your plants look yellow to me. Check out this link herehttp://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm It's obviously not nitrate since you have plenty of that in your tank. I'd say magnesium or iron or both. If I were a betting man I'd go with magnesium. 

The original PMDD formula contained considerabl amounts of Mg


> Conlin and Sears' latest PMDD formula
> mix with water to make a 1/2 liter solution,
> 1 tablespoon chelated trace mix
> 1 tablespoon MgSO4+7H2O (epsom salt)
> ...


Get rid of the macros in the above formula and your left with:
1 tablespoon chelated trace mix 
1 tablespoon MgSO4+7H2O (epsom salt)
per 500ml of water.

Here's the concoction I'm currently using which seems to work great.
250 ml flourish
250 ml flourish iron
mix in 1tblspn plantex+boron and 1tblspn epsom salt

I'm still messing around with dosage. I've gone as much as 1 ml per day on my 75 gal with this formula for 2 weeks and it seemed work out well.
Since christmas I haven't been dosing micros much and my plants are beginning to turn yellow. So I'm going back to dosing daily to see if this brings everything back.

I hope you can find something in this post that'll help.

Marcel


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Hmm, I used to dose Epsom Salts every once in a while but stopped since most trace mixes seem to contain some. I thought the yellowing could have been from the chlorosis (brittle stems, etc.) I was seeing but when I kept raising iron, all I saw was more spot algae so I backed down. It's got to be something else. Let's see what the Mg (Epsom Salts) do.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

GH is both calcium and magnesium, a reading above 3 does not ensure that he has enough magnesium.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

nice tank sam


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## m.lemay (Jul 28, 2002)

SCMurphy said:


> GH is both calcium and magnesium, a reading above 3 does not ensure that he has enough magnesium.


 Thanks Sean. Those were my thoughts exactly. Calcium is the main ingredient for hardness in most locales. I've never tested my local water for Mg but I bet its close to zero. I almost bit the bullet to buy an Mg test kit but decided to add Mg to my tank instead to see what would happen and the Mg did the trick. Mg and Fe work synergistically in plant metabolism. Lack or excess of one can show symptoms of the other. It's another one of those balance catch 22s. The only way to know for sure would be to test for Mg. 

Sam, you could try calling your local water dept for water stats. The water dept here is brutal, I've called them twice to try and get that info and I never got a call back.

Marcel


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

The water department publishes the average water parameter data, in my region, on the internet, and they put a flyer in with the bill once a year. Sometimes they are more responsive, I guess it depends on how many politicians live in your area.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

You guys aren't familiar with my water company. I get my monthly bill on just about a hand-written postcard. No return envelope, etc. provided. I'll call them and see.
I'll try and pick up a GH test kit tonight. Haven't ever tested GH in this tank.

As for my dosing regimen, I do a 50% water change each week and follow it up with 1/2 tsp of K2SO4, 1/2 tsp of KNO3, 20 drops of Fleet Enema (usually brings PO4 up by 0.5ppm) and 2ml of Plantex CSM. Every two days during the week, I'll dose 1ml Plantex. I'll usually dose 1/4 tsp of KNO3 mid week but the plants haven't been pulling it down (saw >10ppm NO3 mid week on several occasions) so I've stopped doing that.
I think maybe I'm just not adding enough of everything. I threw in 1 tsp of Epsom Salts this weekend and raised NO3 and PO4 to 10ppm and 1ppm, respectively. 
That synergism between Mg, Fe and even K and Ca is what is making me think. I was afraid that an excess of one is limiting the uptake of others since plants respond favorably to a water change (removal of excess?). Maybe it's not an excess, though. Maybe the tap is providing something I'm not. And if the GH of the tap proves to be above 3-4dGH, then there's a good chance it is providing several good minerals/traces.


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## pedietz (Dec 18, 2003)

If you use Chlorine/Chlorimine removers, you might wait a few hours to dose the Plantex after the water change.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

I don't think I have any GH data on my site. Do I? I don't believe I've ever tested GH in this tank. I have recieved one of those EPA-mandated drinking water reports that looked so generic that they were probably broadcast for the entire state. I'll test tonight, though, and see where we are at.
Tap pH is ~7.8 and KH is around 6 so I am inclined to say GH is probably in the 4-8 range, wouldn't you think?


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Sam I just read through your regime and it looks like you might be overdoing the Potassium. Too much potassium and you end up with what appears to be calcium defficiency, and now I'm starting to think it could cause magnesium defficiency too. The excess potassium actually blocks the plant's uptake of calcium and possibly magnesium, so while you might have enough present, the plants can't get to it. I'd stop dosing K for a bit, and switch to a nitrogen source other than KNO3.


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## Gomer (Aug 14, 2003)

Hey sam, I'm having hte same nutrient problem you are having. I've stopped dosing K2SO4 and now my only source of K is from KNO3.

I'll let you know if it helps.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

hey guys, i went through the exact same thing overdosing K and it resulted in calcium and magnesium deficiency. now, i don't dose K unless i see pinholes in the leaves, which show up on the hygros first.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

*scratches head feverishly*
But I do see pinholes in the leaves. Maybe Mg and Ca deficiencies manifest themselves similar to K deficiency? I always read Mg and Ca deficiencies were wrinkled, small new leaves. 
I'll cease and desist on the K2SO4 for now, though.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

GulfCoastAquarian said:


> *scratches head feverishly*
> But I do see pinholes in the leaves. Maybe Mg and Ca deficiencies manifest themselves similar to K deficiency? I always read Mg and Ca deficiencies were wrinkled, small new leaves.
> I'll cease and desist on the K2SO4 for now, though.


That maybe true if you have one or the other, but if you have both and potassium 'poisoning' occurring the symptoms may confound each other. I honestly would use something other that KNO3 while I was at it. Just for a week or two. The nitrogen source I use in my mix is urea so it doesn’t have the K attached to it. 

Remember we are just suggesting. Don’t do anything you feel is wrong.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

I willing to try suggestions, though. I am trying to limit myself to make one change at a time so if I do see an improvement, I can attribute it to that particular change.
Right now, I've added Mg (Epsom Salt) and am watching for a change. I'll give the plants a few days.
I'm not scheduled to add K2SO4 until Saturday, if there is no improvement by then, I will do my water change and not add K2SO4. I'll stick with KNO3 for a week or two and if there still proves to be too much potassium, I'll search for an alternate Nitrogen source. There are plenty of Jobe's sticks in the gravel so I suppose I could always stir some of them up if need be.


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## Fat Guy (Nov 19, 2003)

Very very pretty.

Your plants look very healthy.

BTW those angels are gorgeous!!


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

Hey Sam, what i did was do a water change to get out the excess potassium...you prolly have to restart your values that way. if you keep adding and adding, you will get massive nutrient buildups if the nutrients aren't being used. 


"I always read Mg and Ca deficiencies were wrinkled, small new leaves. 
"

Yes that is true. small, deformed leaves.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Thanks for the praise, FG. The only thing I'd change about those Sunset Angels would be to have two more, hehe.

I might rush along and do another water change tonight if I have time. I'll dose Mg again and no K2SO4. I don't want to get impatient, though.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

ohhh sam another thing.... it takes awhile before the plants recover from the k overdose.... after the water change and a couple days it will form new growth that is normal but that stunted part will always be there...it looks funny.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

hubbahubbahehe said:


> ohhh sam another thing.... it takes awhile before the plants recover from the k overdose.... after the water change and a couple days it will form new growth that is normal but that stunted part will always be there...it looks funny.


Yep, the "common wisdom" that is put forth is that the excess K isn't a problem because the plants will just take it up. That's the problem though, you can change water and reduce the K in solution, but the plants will still have an excess in their tissues. Until the plants grow enough to lower their internal K levels they will continue to exhibit signs of Ca and Mg deficiency. It could take a week or more for you to see any difference, which is also why I am plugging for the cessation of K introductions. :wink:


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

So what would be your recommended K dosing?

Wait for brown spots and holes, then dose? Or try to hit some target level, lower than what is recommended somewhere (20 ppm)? Maybe 10 ppm?

Adding K to my tank made a huge difference in the health of plants. I used to add one teaspoon per week per 100 gal for that ~low light tank, which should add around 7 ppm. Now I reduced it to half a teaspoon.

So how do you do it?


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Wasserpest said:


> So what would be your recommended K dosing?
> 
> Wait for brown spots and holes, then dose? Or try to hit some target level, lower than what is recommended somewhere (20 ppm)? Maybe 10 ppm?
> 
> ...


Not you, not anyone currently in balance, this is a recovery session, we'll get to long term maintanence after he gets the K level down. :wink: 

What do I do? I put K2SO4 in the substrate when I set up the tank and I dose some to the water column every now and again. I don't use KNO3, as I indicated I use a nitrogen fert' based on urea. If you were short on K adding does make a huge difference, if you have too much not adding it can make a huge difference. 

<deep breath>

If you want me to be blunt the Barr method has everyone adding K in excess. I'll have to get Ghazanfar to post about the agricultural studies he's looked at that show the damage done to plants that were allowed to take up as much K as possible and the resultant blockage of Ca and Mg uptake. 

Honest, I know you just want good information, and I'm not trying to change the basic balance and dosing effort of 10-1-10 which in most cases works, what I am doing is looking at a guy who was dosing more like 10-1-40 and trying to correct the problem. 

Oh and if you wait for brown spots and holes before you dose I'm coming to your house and confiscating your plants. :wink:


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Barr has even backed down on the K recommendation. He mentions that with 3 times more K than N in KNO3, that alone is more than enough potassium for a typical planted tank.
I think things are looking a little better. Giant hygro has some huge new, bright green leaves and the Baby Tears is showing fuller growth at the top of the stem. Rotala indica is lagging, but pearled yesterday. I'll post updated pictures this weekend.

Not pulling anyone's leg, btw! I haven't had a GH test kit for years. Haven't had a chance to pick one up yet, either (been doing tax returns, ugh). I'll have it by the weekend, I'm sure.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

I, too, have come to the conclusion that the K from KNO3 is enough for a planted tank. I was wrong in the beginning thinking that we need more K because it was a macronutrient so i thought it needed more. But KNO3 is just fine. Now i got a big bag of KCl in my garage.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

GulfCoastAquarian said:


> Not pulling anyone's leg, btw! I haven't had a GH test kit for years. Haven't had a chance to pick one up yet, either (been doing tax returns, ugh). I'll have it by the weekend, I'm sure.


Don't worry about it, I hadn't tested anything in years until I got tired of saying " I don't know" to inquiries. I still have not tested anything other that that 10 gallon tank. :wink:


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## Gomer (Aug 14, 2003)

here is my fun with supposedly K excess (which shows as Mg and Ca deficiencies). It seems to easily manifest in my Ammannia gracilis.

http://members.aol.com/auddz/AmmanniaGracilis2.jpg
http://members.aol.com/auddz/AmmanniaGracilis2.jpg

Also have signs (though less severe) with my stellata

I ahve some ammania clippings in my 10g now and it is doing just fine...no "K" problems. the 29g is about 9 months old and the 10g is aout 4 months old. They are dosed proportionately the same...good ol build up.


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## GW (Feb 21, 2003)

can too much potassium also cause magnesium deficiency? I've been adding 20ppm of k from potassium sulfate and some from kno3 which is probably around 30ppm altogether every week. I dont have any calcium problems but have some very bent leaves from older growth.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

UGH! Just as things were starting to look MUCH better, they got worse. The Giant Hygro just absolutely disintegrated, things stopped growing and I even got GREEN WATER! As I was hooking up the UV sterilizer, I noticed my CO2 tank pressure at ZERO psi!! Argh! I either had a leak or the fire extinguisher place did NOT fill my tank up last time. When I brought it home last time, the gauge only showed 600 psi, (normally shows 800-900psi). I thought it might be the cool weather but it never got higher than 650psi.
This time the tank shows 875 psi so I hope it lasts ten months, the way it did the first time! I also weighed the tank before and after and it definitely had 5lbs of CO2 in it.
Now the plants need a couple days to recuperate and then I can get back on track!


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

AAARRRGGGHHH!!

I _HATE _waiting for plants to reestablish themselves!! It makes me feel like a real screw up even though there is nothing I can do about it!!!!

Mike


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

I feel for ya, Sam. If it were me, I'd be vexed pretty sore about now. Here's hoping things work out for you real soon.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

Best wishes to you Sam, be strong, Bro ham


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Just as an update - I'm still having some problems in this tank. Granted, I haven't had the time that I used to put into the tank, but I do a 1/3 water change every 1-2 weeks, keep CO2 levels going, and test water frequently and this tank is just behaving very weirdly.
The biggest thing that confuses me is how one plants can be growing prolifically while another shrivels completely. Then a few months later, it will reverse. The shriveled plant will come back and the once-robust plant will then shrivel.
I just bought fresh test kits to see if my year old PO4 and NO3 kits were starting to age and they turned out to measure exactly the same as the new kits. About 1ppm PO4, and about 10ppm NO3.
Here's a few examples of the erratic growth.
Bacopa Caroliniana was one of the few plants that just seemed to thrive while the Giant Hygro just about died out. I was down to only one stem of Giant Hygro. Now I have a Giant Hygro forest and the Bacopa is all gone.
Then I had a Sunset Hygro explosion while the Ludwigia shriveled and now that has reversed. The Ludwigia is growing out of the tank and the Sunset Hygro is small and brittle.
Has anyone seen this kind of see-sawing growth between various types of plants?


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

It sounds like the mineral content of your tap water changed.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Possible. Could it be that the mineral content makes it more conducise for one type of plant to grow and less so for another plant? I guess I was always under the impression that when one plant flourished, they all should.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

GulfCoastAquarian said:


> Possible. Could it be that the mineral content makes it more conducise for one type of plant to grow and less so for another plant?


Different plants need different amounts of the nutrients we try to supply. 




GulfCoastAquarian said:


> I guess I was always under the impression that when one plant flourished, they all should.


That would be too easy.


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

maybe a combination of factors is the cause Sam, maybe water temp, mineral changes and the age of the plants/roots is tricking it into thinking its time to wither away like an annual thing , and then they get to a stage where they almost think its like spring again and decide to rejuvenate... :icon_roll 
It _is_ a strange occurance you are seeing, I change plants around so often its always spring to them... LOL

I know Im grabbing for straws with this theory...



> I guess I was always under the impression that when one plant flourished, they all should


 They should all grow I agree, but flourish, thats a whole new game... they each have their quirks thats for sure.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Yeah, I guess we need to accept that plants will come and go. But my baby tears has just about completely died off. The glosso is already gone. Not a trace. I dont' want to lose the baby tears though. I'm trying to rejuvenate a few stems by clipping them to driftwood right near the top, where the light is brightest. So far a few stems seem to be holding on.
Don't baby tears do better in softer water? I might try doing a few water changes with DI water and see what happens.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Interesting thing I just realized.
I recently raised my tank temps up to 82F and then 84F since I've been thinking about getting some Discus. Almost immediately my CO2 levels dropped (pH came up) and I had to increase the bubble rate. I thought this might have been attributed to the HOB Whisper Power filter and surface agitation, but the low CO2 persisted even when I turned the Whisper off.
I raised the bubble rate even further to 1-2 bubbles/second and I started hearing splashing in the external inline reactor. Even when I put the reactor on it's own line from a brand new 600lph powerhead, the gas was still not dissolving fast enough and accumulated in the reactor.
Moral of the story? Gases dissolve more easily in cold water. That's why it is nearly impossible to keep brook trout in captivity because they are used to profusely oxygenated, cold water. When you raise tank temps up to Super-Tropical levels, such as are needed for Discus, CO2 absorption will decrease.
I am going to drop the temps and see what happens. 
Also note: 
Here's a list of the plants that are dying, and the max recommended temps (from Tropica)...
82F Hemianthus micranthemoides 
82F Hygrophila polysperma 
82F Bacopa caroliniana

Plants that are still thriving, with max rec. temps...
86F Anubias Barteri v. coffeefolia
86F Anubias barteri var. nana 
86F Cryptocoryne wendtii ''brown'' 
86F Echinodorus tenellus

Then again, I just realized that all of my rooted plants are thriving. Hmmm. But maybe high temperatures affect a plant's ability to obtain nutrients from the water column?

Yep, I'm grabbing at straws here.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Interesting....

I can vouch for the Hemianthus and Hygrophila. Both melted away on my when my tank climbed to 86F (damn cat).

During this time, my canister filter also developed a big air bubble. One thing I did notice, however, was that CO2 was still dissolving rather easily in the reactor. This isn't to say that there wasn't a bubble of other gasses in the reactor. I knew that the CO2 was dissolving because, on occasion, a bubble would get stuck in the bioballs (on its way to the top of the reactor - before it mixed with the other gas) and quickly disappear. I also noticed that the pH climbed a bit, and I attribute this to loss of gas at the surface.

Oh yeah, and your brook trout comment is 1/2 right. True, they do need very high O2, and quickly die in warm (70F is lethal) water. But more importantly, they do not have any 'warm-water' enzymes. Their metabolism completely breaks down, unlike fish such as bass, which have both warm and cold-water enzymes.

Sorry for being such a dork....but I'm a fish biologist (in Wisconsin, no less), and couldn't stay quiet .

Ted


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Oh well, the trout analogy seemed good at the time, hehe. 
But the whole dissolved gases thing at elevated temps has got me thinking.


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

Maybe I am using more CO2 than would have at lower temps, but my DIY(from Python gravel tube in the sump) reactor has no trouble keeping my CO2 level high(30ppm) at 83F. I am using wet/dry, many people think that causes additional CO2 loss, although George Booth proved long time ago that is not significant. I have experimented more than 50 species of plants at that temp(goes to 86-90F for some days in summer), including the few mentioned above, and none perished due to high temp. Sufficient nutrient dosing is more important though, due to the faster metabolism of plants at high temp. There is no reason to go beyond 84F for discus, since the best breeder in US keeps them at that temp.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Ok, time for an update. It's been almost a year since I went low tech and got rid of the CO2. All things considering, I'm pretty happy with it. I'm very pleasantly surprised to see the Ambulia and Alternanthera still going strong. The rest of the tank is obviously dominated by Anubias, with the exception of a recent addition of some Hygro Angustifolia (thanks BSS!) that is doing well.



Sure was easier to get decent exposures when I had nearly 4wpg! Might need to dig out the second pair of 55w PC's to use just for photography purposes. These pictures are grainy, I know.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

GulfCoastAquarian said:


> Ok, time for an update.


OK TIME FOR AN UPDATE??? :hihi:

That is a Great piece of driftwood. If that baby was in my tank, I'd cover it in moss, bring it forward, and turn it to a 45 angle. A flaming hoop for your fish to jump through .

And what kind of anubias do you have in there. Is that just var. nana and coffeefolia?


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Yeah, I guess it has been longer than I though, haha.
I'm in love with that driftwood, too. It sort of dictates my aquascape quite a bit, but the fact that it's huge and I got it for only $20 at PetSmart makes me want to keep it. I wish I had more tank depth (friggin 55g's are so shallow front/back!) so I could angle it more without touching the front glass.
It used to be covered in so much Anubias that you couldn't even see it. I traded off a bunch of it about a month ago, though. I kind of like being able to see more of the wood. I might be open to trying some moss, so long as it wasn't java moss and stayed fairly compact. 
As for the Anubias, I've got nana, nana 'petite' and coffeefolia.


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