# 60 Gallon Starfire Dutch



## cosmic_shaman (Oct 2, 2015)

That stand is a beauty!! 
Looking forward to more updates, I'm excited to see your tank 


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## tomb1981 (Sep 18, 2015)

Amazing. A lot of promise. I build a stand myself a couple of weeks ago and I know how much work it can be (including the design). But its also very rewarding to have a self made product ;-). Keep up the good work and I am looking forward to see the progress.


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## vilenarios (Jan 28, 2015)

It was definitely rewarding to have a self made product. I learned a lot in the wood working process. It probably would have gone faster if we had a more accurate table saw and didn't apply 10 gallons of glue to all of the biscuits and joins... but the stand will hold an elephant and will last hundreds of years.

So I had the CO2 on yesterday during the light period for perhaps 4 or 5 hours. I noticed this morning the co2 checker was still lime green, even though it has been off all night. Is that normal?


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

vilenarios said:


> I noticed this morning the co2 checker was still lime green, even though it has been off all night. Is that normal?


Yeah, I wouldn't worry night is when plants are respiring so they're releasing CO2, but not taking in CO2, causing the lime green colour. As long as you're not hitting yellow at any point you're good. Also, I would just go ahead and have your CO2 on for your entire photoperiod. (Well like have it on an hour before and have it off an hour before) 

Lovely tank by the way, once you get a carpet going then it will be super baller. Also in regards to fauna I would get some Amanos as a clean up crew and schools of smaller fish like some Harlequin Rasboras and who doesn't love some Cardinals. But, of course, it's up to you and an angel or other more 'centerpiece' fish could look great as well.


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## bennyjam (Nov 6, 2012)

Excellent work work on the stand. Impressive set up overall. Subscribed!

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## vilenarios (Jan 28, 2015)

Almost a week in. I haven't had much time to tweak anything, other than do a water change. I accidentally let it fill up too much and had a nice overflow. My first "OH CRAP" moment! Nothing a couple towels couldn't dry up, but I was lucky it didn't pour down the back. The water is starting to look much nicer, and the plants are acclimating a bit. CO2 has been stable, and I can only assume my macros and micros are getting dosed. Only pulled out a tiny bit of hair algae so far (knock on wood)

I'll test the ammonia tomorrow. Hopefully something more reasonable, so I can get some fish in there this weekend. Plants are nice and all, but its just so empty looking without those lil guys in there. I should be getting some more plants soon once the LFS restocks, and I going to try to fit in some small shards of wood for some moss and some rocks I got from Lake Champlain. I'm thinking Christmas moss, mini AR, a java fern, another buce and who knows what else.










I definitely wish I had a par meter. This light is the most powerful one I've had, so not much to compare it to.


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## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

vilenarios said:


> Almost a week in. I haven't had much time to tweak anything, other than do a water change. I accidentally let it fill up too much and had a nice overflow. My first "OH CRAP" moment!




Don't worry, there will be plenty more of those to come xD


Especially me trying to get things done as quick as possible, but turns out I'm not very good at multi-tasking trying to do water changes/maintenance on so many tanks at once. I've warped plenty of the laminated wood flooring.


Keep an eye on those rimless tanks though, more chance of overflowing fish onto the floor!

Nice stand by the way! Did you use a glossy sealant? (looks nice and glossy in one pic)


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## vilenarios (Jan 28, 2015)

WaterLife said:


> Nice stand by the way! Did you use a glossy sealant? (looks nice and glossy in one pic)


After everything was built, I sanded it down with 60 and 220 grit sandpaper so it was nice and smooth. Then I used 2 coats of Minwax Classic grey stain. After that, I added 2 coats of Minwax Semi-Gloss polyeurathane (3 on the top surface and top trim). Between the coats of poly, I used steel wool to smooth out the surfaces some more. Poly sometimes leaves tiny bubbles, which after drying, become rough to the touch. The steel wool really helps with that, although it does make kind of a mess and you will have to blow it off with an air hose or blower or something.


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## tomb1981 (Sep 18, 2015)

Maybe you could give use a stock list of the plants in the tank? This is sometimes hard to grasp from the picture alone ;-).

In the Dutch style, pruning/trimming and balancing growth levels is very challenging. Have you thought about how you are going to do that?


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## vilenarios (Jan 28, 2015)

Ok, so I was able to sit down and document what I have in there. I added a bit more plant yesterday and ad some lighting issues this week, but those are resolved as well. 

So my light schedule is as follows. Channel 1 is a mix of 7.5k, 10k and 495nm Cyan. Channel 2 is 3.5k, 4.5k and 660nm red. Channel 3 is just for moonlights, with just 5 14k leds. The 24 hour time is a little wonky compared to the 12 hour time, and originally i assumed 0:00 hours was 12am. This caused my light cycle to click off every day at 12pm (since the ramp timer then thought it was 12am and went to nighttime mode for 5 hours). The light is probably a foot and a half off of the tank.

24Hr	CH1	CH2	CH3	12hr
0:00	10	30	80	12:00 PM
1:00	15	35	80	1:00 PM
2:00	20	40	80	2:00 PM
3:00	15	35	50	3:00 PM
4:00	10	30	50	4:00 PM
5:00	1	20	10	5:00 PM
6:00	0	10	0	6:00 PM
7:00	0	1	30	7:00 PM
8:00	0	0	30	8:00 PM
9:00	0	0	30	9:00 PM
10:00	0	0	30	10:00 PM
11:00	0	0	5	11:00 PM
12:00	0	0	1	12:00 AM
13:00	0	0	0	1:00 AM
14:00	0	0	0	2:00 AM
15:00	0	0	0	3:00 AM
16:00	0	0	0	4:00 AM
17:00	0	0	0	5:00 AM
18:00	0	0	5	6:00 AM
19:00	0	1	1	7:00 AM
20:00	0	2	0	8:00 AM
21:00	0	5	0	9:00 AM
22:00	0	10	20	10:00 AM
23:00	0	20	30	11:00 AM

Im averaging it out to about 8 hours of light, since I dont consider the early morning, later at night as enough light for the plants to do much. CO2 turns on at 9:30 and off at 4:30, probably at about 4 bubbles per second. The water looks like seltzer a bit, but the drop checker stays lime green during the main lighting period.

Macros at 8:20, Micros at 8:45 every other day. Ammonia was still at 40 when I checked last night, so holding off on fish for another week or until it gets lower. Added some more plants, and I got more on the way this week.

Plants	
Nuphos Japonica
Tonina
Buce Green Wavy
Ammania Gracilis
Rotala Wallichii
Vallisneria Natans
Hygrophila Pinnatifida
Ludwigia Peruensis
Cryptocoryne walkeri lutea
Alternathera Reineckii
Rotala Indica
Rotala Macandra Narrow
Cryptocoryne Wendtii[censored](tissue culture)
Staurogyne Repends (tissue culture)
Utricularia Graminfolia (tissue culture)
Hemianthus Cuba (tissue culture)
Glossostigma elatinoines (tissue culture)
Pogostemon Helferi (tissue culture)
Lobelia Cardinalis (tissue culture)

I think I may be missing one in there. As you can see in the pic, a couple are not doing so good. The utricularia is looking particularily grim. A bit of hair algea/melting going on with it. Im hoping stable parameters will bring it back.

The challenge of doing the Dutch scape is partly why I wanted to try it. I understand that there is an art to managing the fore, mid and backgrounds, as well as the groupings of each plant species. Ive been keeping my Fluval Edges trimmed decently over the last year, so i expect trimming this to be MUCH easier in regards to being able to freely move my hands. My hand/arm will cramp up after a while of working inside those tiny nano tanks! 

I really wanted to get some kind of hardscape in there, so I added some small stones my brother in law got from Lake Champlain, VT. I have some small pieces of wood I want to use for more buces and some mosses, but unsure how to best fit them in there. The more I look at the tank, the more I kind of figure out how I want each grouping to be, height-wise and width-wise. For now though, im really just wanting everything to grow healthy, with the intent to trim/tweak things as I go.


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

I would be careful with mixing the carpeting plants (the Glosso and HC), they will eventually grow into each other and one will grow underneath the other and then cause lifting of the substrate which is no fun. So, just separate them (with hardscape etc.) and you'll be A-okay, it's not quite an immediate problem, but it's something to be aware of.

Good progress though! Sure the tank will start to look great soon(ish).


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Life will be easier if you add more plant mass to that tank. If you start to run into algae don't be afraid to put in a bunch of 'temporary' plants to suck up nutrients and out-compete algae / save your permanent plants. This is a common and effective strategy.


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## tomb1981 (Sep 18, 2015)

We are almost 2 weeks from the last update, how are things going?


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## vilenarios (Jan 28, 2015)

Whew time is flying by as usual! Having a bit of issues but still progressing. Finally got some fish in the tank after parameters stabilized somewhat.
Ammonia went down to .15, but nitrites were 2ppm and nitrates are really high for some reason - 100ppm or so. I think I somehow screwed up my macros, so I am going to remix them tomorrow. Plants are doing well for the most part. Totally lost the dwarf baby tears, and riccia. Didn't seem like enough flow at first, and the surface was getting kind of nasty, so I got another Korania nano 420, but I'm honestly not sure if its too much now. Some ludwigia repents I put in melted really hard from the bottom of the stems up, but a couple survived and are doing very well. I ended up getting the following additions:

Limnophila Hipporoides
fissidens fontanus
Alternathera Reineckii Variegated
Rotala Macandra Narrow
Tonina sp Belen
trithuria 'blood vomit'
buce brownie red
java fern 'thor's hammer'
java fern 'windelov'
Calogloss cf. Baccarin 'red moss'

I think tomorrow I will start trimming some of the longer stems. The rotala macandra narrow in the back right is very stunted and refuses to grow anything but tiny thin leaves. The nuphar japonica is really starting to put out some nice leaves, as is the glosso. I don't know why but the staurgyne repens is starting to fall apart as well. I love this plant and its doing so well in my 6g fluval edge with no co2 or ferts.

I also added some fish a couple nights ago
Fish	
5	Rummynose Tetra
1	Peacock Gudgeon
1	Flame Gourami
2	Ruby Barb
3	Melanistrus corydores
8	Cardinal Tetra

They seem to be doing OK so far with the CO2 coming on. I just checked and most are just chilling on the bottom of the tank now. I definitely need some Otos to fight the bit of diatoms starting to form on the bottom of the front glass and buce leaves. The cardinal tetras look awesome, and Id like to get 7 or 10 more, maybe a third ruby barb and 5 more rummynose. Would that be too much? The tank still seems kind of empty, but the plants have alot more room to grow.

Its been kind of difficult getting a good mix of light and co2. I feel like I'm continually fiddling with the bubble counter when I'm around, and making the light 5% more or less powerful at a given interval. I need to just leave it alone!!


































I got to take some videos, especially with the moonlights. I think it looks the best at night!


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## vilenarios (Jan 28, 2015)

Well it was a bad idea to go for the Ruby Barbs. They were fun to watch, but unfortunately found my blyxa, nuphar japnica and UG as a nice snack. The tank got a pretty bad bought of diatoms, so had to give it a nice cleaning yesterday during water change. Nitrates are still around 40ppm, but nitrites finally bottomed out to 0. I stopped my Nitrate dosing until things level out. I have a feeling im dosing too much CSM+B, so im going to cut that in half for a week and see if the plants respond better. Some of the tops of the AR are very curled. The rotala is doing incredibly poorly - not dying or melting, rather just growing very slowly and incredibly stunted. 

I still need to get the trimming down properly, so the bunches grow in evenly. I traded out the Ruby Barbs, and got a trio of Threadfin Rainbows, along with a beautiful killifish and 5 oto cats. Hopefully the otos keep the tank clean.

Should I be running an airstone or something at night? Would that help with the thin oily film that I sometimes see?


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

A surface skimmer will help with the film but it's not really detrimental to the tank (the flim that is)

EDIT: My bad it is not so great for livestock, was only thinking plants sorry sorry!

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## tomb1981 (Sep 18, 2015)

I am using a small Eheim skim 350. It also helps in generating some more flow in the tank. Works really well and is cheap (at least here in Europe).


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## vilenarios (Jan 28, 2015)

Well, my beautiful Killifish jumped out after night one. Found a tiny fish jerky on the floor the next morning. Poor little fella! Its strange, the longer I keep fish, the more personal it gets when they die. But at the same time, I had no problem scarfing down some baked flounder last night.

Anyway.

Picked up a couple more threadfin rainbows and some cardinal tetras along with a stiphodon goby.

Current list:
1 x Peacock Gudgeons (Tateurndina Ocellicauda)
5 x Oto (Otocinclus vittatus)
2 x Dwarf Gourami (Colisa lalia)
8 x Rummynose Tetra (Hemigrammus bleheri)
3 x Peppered Cory (Corydoras paleatus)
15 x Cardinal Tetra (Paracheirodon axelrodi)
5 x Threadfin RainbowFish (Iriatherina werneri)

I think im going to rip out the stunted Rotala Rotundifolia in the back corner. Its just not growing at all. The rotala walichi isnt coloring up how I would like either, and is staying pretty green. Ill wait until my nitrates finally bottom out, as I've read high nitrates inhibits the redness in plants.


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## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

I'm sure the Rotala Rotundifolia will come out of it's stunted state with some time. I'm no plant expert and don't know what causes growth stunts, but I had a Hygro that was stunted for quite some time, but eventually started growing again without me doing anything different, just gave it time.

As for high nitrates, I have tested growing rotala wallichii (other various red plants as well) in a tank with high nitrates and it still had a pretty good amount of red at the tops still (definitely a good amount more than yours are showing).

Again I am by no means a plant expert, and no offence, but from the results I have seen from many others (with similar or even "lesser" set ups), for what you are doing (pretty much high tech), you should be having much better growth results than you are having. I am not sure what is going wrong. Might be worth posting a separate thread (with more appropriate title) asking for opinions on growth results from those more inclined.

Bump: Oh and by the way, add at least 3 more Pepper Corys for a group total of at least 6 since they are social shoaling fish.

The Peacock Gudgeon wouldn't mind 1-3 more of it's kind as well (preferably balanced sex ratio or more females).

Sucks to hear about the Killie, they are natural jumpers in the wild. Stiphodon goby can jump as well if scared of you, they only jump about a inch or so though at the tank walls, so just keep the water level down a bit.


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

What is your water hardness? I specifically needed to add magnesium for Rotala. It grew fine for a while then stunted which was very frustrating. More NPK+M did nothing, more CO2 did nothing and of course more light hasn't anything to do with stunting.

I find that plants tend to sit there for a month or so then start growing well. When you see them responding well move your lighting up a notch every couple weeks remembering the danger of BBA is a few months after the tank is started, don't get cocky that your tank is nice and clean yet. My Belem hairgrass sat for a week, looked really sad for a couple weeks, perked up after that but only started carpeting when I upped the lighting a couple notches. I don't have a RB [5' unit came out well after I 'needed' to upgrade] but I think my LEDzeal is similar and now run it at 100% for 15 minutes a day amping up/down to 40% for about 5 hours and just enough to enjoy the tank for the other 10 hours a day. I do use pennywort as floater as well though.

Water film reduces oxygen exchange and is detrimental to the fish in the tank. Livestock capacity is determined by water/air surface area, less exchange and fewer critters can live in the tank. You might drop an airstone on a timer in at night time for your fishes' health. In time the film may dissipate and you can take it out.


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## vilenarios (Jan 28, 2015)

My poor threaded rainbows got ich!!! Put in some malachite green after doing a solid 50% water change today and cranked the heat. I managed to catch 2 of the 4 and gave them a salt bath, but not sure if that helped. I haven't seen any signs of it on the other fish, so I'm crossing my fingers it doesn't spread. One of the rainbows bit the dust though. Before this happened, I added a male and female scarlet badis. I find myself always looking for them when I walk up to the tank. Also put in a fourth cory and a mystery snail.

Hmmm yeah it does seem like the growth and coloration is not what id expect from a high tech tank. I did some trimming today and added some more plants... I think its looking good so far, I just need to work on the shape of the groupings and coloration. I bumped up my light intensity as you suggested, so we will see how that goes this week. The bubble wall I added runs at night and has helped with the film, plus it gives me more of a peace of mind that I can oxygenate the tank to help with fish health. I lowered the co2 a bit until the inch outbreak goes away, since I was reading that additional stress is no good for the fauna. 

I'm done stocking the fish and plants finally, and just focusing on homeostasis and good growing plants. Got an iron test and saw I basically had nowhere near enough, so I added a few tablespoons of iron Chelate to my CSM+B to give it a boost. I noticed that my autodosing may not be distributing the amount I think. So ill have to tweak that. Still not dosing nitrates, as they were around 40 before the water change.

Pic is with 100% all channels. My max is 45% cool channel and 60% warm channel.


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## kalan850 (Aug 21, 2012)

Wow what an incredible build nice job


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

WaterLife said:


> I
> 
> Again I am by no means a plant expert, and no offence, but from the results I have seen from many others (with similar or even "lesser" set ups), for what you are doing (pretty much high tech), you should be having much better growth results than you are having.


not to be snarky but what type of growth would one expect after 40 days?











vilenarios said:


> My poor threaded rainbows got ich!!!


That sucks.. Good luck. I used heat and salt one time but of course it damaged tons of plants (many lived through it and yes, I should have removed them but at the time they were considered expendable)


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## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

jeffkrol said:


> not to be snarky but what type of growth would one expect after 40 days?


Hmm, to be honest, I don't quite remember what I was referring to exactly.

But looking back, maybe I was just talking about the growth rate over this 16 day span as seen in these pictures.

I don't have much experience with high tech tanks, but the growth I have seen in similarly set up tanks, their growth rates were considerably more and the reds would be more pronounced.

In my medium light tank with just inert substrate, minimal ferts (but I feed a lot of fish food, high fish-load as well), but no injected co2 or glute (but I do overstock fish so maybe they are giving off enough co2?), even my plants (comparing the same species we both have) seem to grow more within that time span and I am using a inferior set up. And no, my plants aren't all lengthy growing vertically quickly just to reach more light, they actually have quite short internodes. 

Maybe it just because the tank/plants have "settled in" yet and will take off soon or maybe just something is a little out of tweak. 

Don't mean to come off as rude, just wanted to point that out that I would expect growth to be better with the given set up so that maybe it could be better looked into to see if improvements/fixes could be made. 

But yes, from the 40 day transformation it does look to have grown in nicely, but might be a bit of a illusion since it seems some plants were added in during that time.

But anyways, OP, hope the threadfins get better. If it really is ick though, you should probably treat the whole tank as usually the whole tank is infected (even though visible cysts/signs might not be present yet). Don't use Malachite Green on the snails. There is Kordon Ich Attack (NOT Rid Ich) that is natural, very gentle/well tolerated by livestock and is safe for inverts and the plants as well, so safe to use on the planted tank with everyone in it.


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## vilenarios (Jan 28, 2015)

Thanks for the comparison shots Jeff. I cant believe it has been 40 days already! I definitely added alot more plants from the original picture, and the latest one was taken after i trimmed my rotala wallichi and macandra. I got to trim the limnophilia hipporoides next since its getting beastly.

Im expecting things grow in nicely this week as I've fine tuned the fertilizers (reduced csm+b, added more FE) and increased the light. Hopefully its not an algeabomb waiting to happen!


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## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

From what's been said, algae is not directly caused by high ferts, otherwise all EI dosed tanks would have tons of algae. It's more so if the light to co2 levels (with plant mass in mind) are not in balance.

Read the "CSM+B toxicity" thread that's been going around lately if you haven't. Lots of great interesting info to take into consideration, albeit a lot of it goes over my head since most of it's well beyond my current level of comprehension of plant nutrient needs (deficiency/optimal/toxicity).


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## vilenarios (Jan 28, 2015)

WaterLife said:


> From what's been said, algae is not directly caused by high ferts, otherwise all EI dosed tanks would have tons of algae. It's more so if the light to co2 levels (with plant mass in mind) are not in balance.
> 
> Read the "CSM+B toxicity" thread that's been going around lately if you haven't. Lots of great interesting info to take into consideration, albeit a lot of it goes over my head since most of it's well beyond my current level of comprehension of plant nutrient needs (deficiency/optimal/toxicity).


That thread is what tipped me off to CSM+B toxicity. Its definitely a bit above my head too, but i was noticing the same behaviors on some of my plants. I toned it back a bit but upped the FE, and figure that I can always dose more traces if I see a deficiency. Ill see how a week of it goes and measure again on the weekend.

Oh and I didnt take your comments being rude at all


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## vilenarios (Jan 28, 2015)

Just took some measurements today at 2:15pm.

Nitrate - 30ppm - i cant seem to get these down - i havent dosed Nitrates in a couple weeks now. They were up in the 100s a month ago.
Nitrite - 0ppm
PH - 6.0
Phosphate - 1ppm
Ammonia .1 ppm
Iron .1ppm
KH - 4
GH - 8

Going to give some things a good cut now, and put some purigen in the filter. I kind of feel bad throwing away the good growth, but the limnophilia is getting immense. I ordered a 2 litre jug of flourish to replace the CSM+B, since it was on sale on Amazon. Ill still keep the remainder of the dry csm+b just in case, but im curious if I will see anything grow in differently. I will maybe even supllement with additional iron on a fourth dosing pump.


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## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

Amazing looking tank already! How hard is the Blood Vomit to grow? I was thinking of getting some because it looks nice and the trimmings can be sold for a good price.


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## vilenarios (Jan 28, 2015)

sohankpatel said:


> Amazing looking tank already! How hard is the Blood Vomit to grow? I was thinking of getting some because it looks nice and the trimmings can be sold for a good price.


Well, lets put it this way - I still have all 5 of my original Blood Vomits, but I have put them through a lot of stress. My fish keep pulling them out, so I have had to replant them several times. Every other morning I find one floating at the top. They are starting to lose their color and get some bba, however I think I see a couple of them already starting to form clones. Hoping if they are just left alone for a bit they will perk up.

Trimming up the plants was more challenging than I thought and took a lot longer (as per usual whenever I do anything involving a fish tank). The rotala was a mess, as was the AR. I decided to let the macandra and walichi grow a bit more before replanting. I'm afraid to remove too much plant mass at once, but not sure if its too big of a deal. Definitely need a better system of removing plants and not making as big of a mess on the floor...

Is there a trick to removing BBA on old leaves?


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## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

vilenarios said:


> Well, lets put it this way - I still have all 5 of my original Blood Vomits, but I have put them through a lot of stress. My fish keep pulling them out, so I have had to replant them several times. Every other morning I find one floating at the top. They are starting to lose their color and get some bba, however I think I see a couple of them already starting to form clones. Hoping if they are just left alone for a bit they will perk up.
> 
> Trimming up the plants was more challenging than I thought and took a lot longer (as per usual whenever I do anything involving a fish tank). The rotala was a mess, as was the AR. I decided to let the macandra and walichi grow a bit more before replanting. I'm afraid to remove too much plant mass at once, but not sure if its too big of a deal. Definitely need a better system of removing plants and not making as big of a mess on the floor...
> 
> Is there a trick to removing BBA on old leaves?


Flagfish are FANTASTIC BBA eaters, they demolish it when they are hungry, SAE also eat it. I have 2 flagfish that i got when i started getting BBA, and now there is none, however they don't eat algae as much because they have been spoiled by food for the other fish.


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## Positron (Jul 22, 2013)

vilenarios said:


> Just took some measurements today at 2:15pm.
> 
> Nitrate - 30ppm - i cant seem to get these down - i havent dosed Nitrates in a couple weeks now. They were up in the 100s a month ago.
> Nitrite - 0ppm
> ...


Keep us updated as to how things start growing with the flourish. I'd start by adding up all the mL you'd dose a week, divide by 7 and dose that amount every day. I'd so if the label says 5 mL twice a week, id dose 1.3 mL. Be sure to use actual water volume and not the volume of the tank. I.E my tank is 75g but only 65g of water are in it bc of the stones and substrate.


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## vilenarios (Jan 28, 2015)

Positron said:


> Keep us updated as to how things start growing with the flourish. I'd start by adding up all the mL you'd dose a week, divide by 7 and dose that amount every day. I'd so if the label says 5 mL twice a week, id dose 1.3 mL. Be sure to use actual water volume and not the volume of the tank. I.E my tank is 75g but only 65g of water are in it bc of the stones and substrate.


Will do. I'm hoping its at my doorstep when I get home from work...

Do you think I will have to supplement with additional Iron?


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## tomb1981 (Sep 18, 2015)

I would look at the condition of your plants. Are they becoming a bit yellow?? Then add some iron.

I sometimes take a look at these two sites for more help on plant reaction on nutrition deficiencies:
- Infograph
- Aqua rebell

Still it sometimes is a bit of fiddling around and hoping for the best ;-).


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## vilenarios (Jan 28, 2015)

Well its been a solid month of maintenance, small tweaks and trimming. I changed up to flourish, and while I don't think I was having extreme symptoms of csm+b toxicity, it seems that my macandra and AR are doing much better. I'm dosing 3 ml per day, which is a tiny bit higher than the recommendation. Had a small bout of staghorn when I switched to flourish comprehensive, which I spot treated with h202 and got four SAEs who seem to be loving all of the different kinds of plants. The scarlet badis have both disappeared. Well one of them "disappeared" to the floor of my office. The rest of the fish seem to be doing well. Fat bellies, no visible stress and some nice schooling habits.

The rotala walichi just wasn't getting the color, and was just growing way too fast, so I replaced it with some kind of echindorus. I think it should get taller. The more I trim the plants, the better I know how they react, especially since the growing conditions seem to have really stabilized. I ripped out a ton of the downoi as well, which made for a good trade at the local fish store. I think I need to take out the glosso in the bottom right and replace with something a bit more controllable, since its kind of a small area. Its starting to get a spot of cyano bacteria, which you can also see on the glass under the dirt. Not sure how to control that...

I'm going away for 10 days... Someone will be coming to feed the fish, so I'm going to make a little infographic for them on basic maintenance. Should I lower light and co2 or will that mess up new growth? I'm worried about the evaporation, as right now I lose like 4 gallons by Wednesday from a sunday water change. Maybe I can convince them to do a water change. When I get back, I'm going to try to actually take a few nice pictures. The cell phone pics don't do it much justice!


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Beautiful tank.. 
BTW: I know you thought it was "too green" w/ the cyans..
Feel the same now??

As to the 10 days, sorry no good advice but cutting the light down a bit (don't think I'd cut the CO2 unless you are already running close to max) may help the caretakers a bit..


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## TLE041 (Jan 16, 2010)

Tank looks great!

Have you thought about adding a piece of driftwood to break up the plant mass and add some visual interest?


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## vilenarios (Jan 28, 2015)

jeffkrol said:


> Beautiful tank..
> BTW: I know you thought it was "too green" w/ the cyans..
> Feel the same now??
> 
> As to the 10 days, sorry no good advice but cutting the light down a bit (don't think I'd cut the CO2 unless you are already running close to max) may help the caretakers a bit..


Sometimes I think it looks greenish when the two channels are equal intensity, which is only midday. I think its mostly due to the reflection of the light through the glass onto the off-white wall behind the tank. It definitely makes the colors pop. The variegated AR has such a nice red color and its only 2 inches off the substrate at the moment. The moonlights though are the best. The cardinal tetras almost sparkle blue.

Ive thought about adding wood to the tank, or should I say more wood. I wanted to try to stick with some of the more traditional rules to Dutch aquascaping, and not rely on a lot of wood. I do have a couple small pieces. One with caloglossa moss and the other with Christmas moss. Both of them are really starting to take off. Maybe on day ill rescape everything and do something more nature style with more wood and stone. 

Bonus fluval 6v edge shot since its filling in well. Just a daily dose of excel.


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## heel4you (Mar 8, 2015)

vilenarios,
Pm'd you with some questions about your light.
Thanks!


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## vilenarios (Jan 28, 2015)

heel4you said:


> vilenarios,
> Pm'd you with some questions about your light.
> Thanks!


Responded!

So I went on vacation for 2 weeks, and luckily the tank survived with just a daily feeding from my sister in law. The nitrates shot back up to like 80+ since there was no water change, but no loss of flora or fauna, just some stunting and greenness from the Rotala Macandra. Going to do another water change tonight and take some updated pictures. My mosses are finally doing very well and have almost covered the small bits of driftwood. The downoi, which was doing incredible seems to have slowed down since my last hack job, and my Hygro Pinatafida also needed a good hacking since it started growing out of the tank and the lower leaves got very pinholey and melty.

Pictures to come later.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

Any updates?


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## vilenarios (Jan 28, 2015)

Hey All,

Kind of fell off the radar a bit. The tank and scape has been chugging along. Ive been reducing the plant species count over time, as I feel larger groupings are easier to maintain. Plus some things, like the pogostemon helferi started melting and withering away, so I traded it out. The red moss also started to get out of control and growing on everything, so I removed it. Here are some pics after the latest trim.

Current Plant List:
Limnophilia Hipporoides
Ludwigia Peruensis
Ludwigia Sphraerocarpa (single stem, which isnt doing so hot)
Alternathera Reineckii Variegated
Alternathera Reineckii
Blyxa Japonica
Crypocryne Wendtii
Christmas Moss
Nuphar Japonica
Rotala Macandra
Lobelia Cardinalis
Java Fern "Thors Hammer"
A few hidden buces that im not sure how to integrate into the scape and may move to my smaller tanks

There are a whole lot of fish in there, but they always hide in the back. I have no clue why. They are afraid of me or something!

As you can see, im struggling to keep the Ludwigia Peruensis happy in the back left. I dont know why. Some stems look very stunted with crinkled curly leaves, but other look very nice, and the bottom leaves almost always end up falling off. I screwed up hanging my light so its not directly over center of the tank, so the lack of light to the back left may be causing problems. I got to hack down the staurogyne repens and plant the stems in the foreground for a thin carpet going across. That stuff grows like a weed so I dont think it should be an issue. Ive had to trim and throw out pounds of blyxa and limnophilia. My Eheim 2217 doesnt seem to be keeping up with the demands of the tank as well, the flow is slower than I would like, so I may upgrade that with something bigger at some point. No matter how many times I clean it, the flow always goes down to a trickle. Any tips on keeping my lily pipes clean?

Im toying around with the idea of putting some kind of frosted glass backing to the read of the tank, or even a black background. A part of me wants to tear down the whole dutch scape, trade off the plants, and do something more Nature style with some nice wood and rocks.

As always thanks for reading!


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## ScubaSteve (Jun 30, 2012)

I love the way your current setup looks...but I can understand why you would want to go to a "nature" type scape. Maybe instead of replacing the 2217, just add another one....I think 2 would be adequate for a 60 gallon. In my experience, you aren't going to get much better than a 2217.


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## MaroMan (Jan 6, 2010)

Just went through the thread from the start, your tank progression looks great! I like the groupings of plants over the collectoritus type scape. Keep up the good work!


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

I'm liking the Dutch! Hope you keep at it.


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## HBdirtbag (Jun 15, 2015)

love the stand you made!


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## vilenarios (Jan 28, 2015)

HBdirtbag said:


> love the stand you made!


Thanks! Im not really a wood worker, but its definitely the nicest, most quality built thing I've ever made. I think I may have to reorganize the inside a bit, especially if I am going to try to squeeze in another filter. If I did it all again, I would make the holes for the tubes a bit bigger on the right side.


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## Sub1117 (Sep 21, 2014)

Wow, stand is beautiful! Tank is thriving as well :thumbsup:


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## Fissure (Jun 29, 2014)

Nicely done, looks wonderful !


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## vilenarios (Jan 28, 2015)

*Fall is here*

Hi All,

Ended up getting a puppy in July. Needless to say, our new addition has taken up some tank time. I fiddled with my light too much, and ended up with a lot of green dust algea on everything. Not a pretty sight. Some of the plants are just finally starting to recover, especially the lobelia cardinalis mini. I totally ripped out the Blyxa, as it was just too much of a beast and i was tired of it dominating the center of the tank. I also downsized the ginourmous crypt bunch that developed on the right side.

As you can see, the middle/right side of the tank needs work. Im hoping some of the new plant additions take hold. Ill select the ones that grow the best. The nesaea crassicaulis is already looking stunted - no idea why - perhaps too many nitrates, as the tank runs rich of nitrates overall. I chopped up the last piece of drift wood I have, and reapplied my christmas moss, since it was just getting too fluffy. I also attached a few buces i traded for on a small piece in the bottom right. Lets see how well they do. The thors hammer java fern has also turned into a beast of a plant. Maybe ill give a big trim, but for now im just cultivating the baby ferns and trading them.

Still running the single eheim 2217 - but perhaps this christmas ill upgrade. The only issue is that i dont know if I have enough room underneath for 2 filters. I may have to get a bit creative... I did however manage to purchase a Biotek Marine BTM3000 par sensor - which is AWESOME. My first measurement at the substrate was like 150 PAR during peak light (which was probably only like 40% power). No wonder I was having algea issues! Im going to be doing some more analysis with my light - ill post the results in case anyone is interested.

(Bonus puppy pic)


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## vilenarios (Jan 28, 2015)

A few changes for the tank this weekend.

I added a few 450NM blue LEDs to my light. Of course, I messed up a bit and a couple arent working, but overall I think it improved the greenish huge. I was able to take some really good PAR tests.

At 100% on all channels, at about 16 inches off of the tank (20 inches deep), I'm getting 350+ PAR. 200+ in the corners (holy crap!!!). The full tank shot below is at 100% on all 3 channels. The second one is at 30/33/50 which is the max I run it at now, which is only around 115+ PAR at substrate. My cell phone camera does not do the colors justice.

24 Hour	CH1	CH2	CH3	12 hour	PAR
0:00	25	33	50	12:00 PM	115
1:00	30	33	50	1:00 PM	123
2:00	25	33	50	2:00 PM	115
3:00	10	53	0	3:00 PM	108
4:00	0	53	0	4:00 PM	88
5:00	0	35	0	5:00 PM	58
6:00	0	5	50	6:00 PM	20
7:00	0	0	80	7:00 PM	17
8:00	0	0	50	8:00 PM	10
9:00	0	0	30	9:00 PM	6
10:00	0	0	20	10:00 PM	5
11:00	0	0	10	11:00 PM	4
12:00	0	0	0	12:00 AM	0
13:00	0	0	0	1:00 AM	0
14:00	0	0	0	2:00 AM	0
15:00	0	0	0	3:00 AM	0
16:00	0	0	0	4:00 AM	0
17:00	0	0	0	5:00 AM	0
18:00	0	0	0	6:00 AM	0
19:00	0	1	0	7:00 AM	4
20:00	1	5	0	8:00 AM	14
21:00	3	17	50	9:00 AM	47
22:00	5	27	50	10:00 AM	85
23:00	20	33	50	11:00 AM	106

Do you guys think this is a big enough light period? 

The cabinet needs some reorganization... got to get creative to save some space.

I have the rest of the layout in my mind - the right side needs to fill in. Im hoping the ludwigia arcuata bushes up and reddens a bit. Ive already lost hope for the amania cressicalis. Its really stunted - no clue why  Overall im trying to let things grow out for the next couple of weeks and then do a major trim. I recently pulled out a lot of my crypt becketii and trimmed that huge Thors Hammer java fern.


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## vilenarios (Jan 28, 2015)

Now that the weather is really cooled off and the leaves are (mostly) raked, I have much more time to spend on the dutch tank. Winter time = the best time for aquariums in my opinion.

I decided to change up a couple things a few days ago.

- I added Purigen back into the filter. I'm hoping it will help me remove some nitrates. I'm desperately trying to keep them between 5-10 - but its rather challenging. Just did 2 50% water changes this week, so I'm hoping that gives me a good baseline. 
- Changed my iron fertilizer to edta, dtpa and ferrous gluconate mix. Between this and lower nitrates, I'm hoping my luwigia arcuate reddens up.
- Eheim Skimmer, which has been AMAZING.
- Added a much needed shelf
- Removed the 2 pea puffers I had - which improved the community greatly. the tetras actually school nicely now.

Having some issues with my Jaebo pump tubes popping off. The fertilizers build up in the very tiny openings, and cause back pressure which cause them to pop off. Kind of annoying to find a mess in the cabinet from time to time. Still seeing what is going to happen with the right side of the scape. I'm liking the Ludwigia Arcuata and cryptocryne walkeri. The variegated bacopa is also very nice, however I'm worried it will end up to be something I will have to trim every few days. I would love to keep the Nesaea crassicaulis. Some side shoots are looking better, but overall the plant is still stunted. I'm totally happy with the left and middle parts of the scape. Just got to fine tune the plants over time. I gave the Staurogyne a huge mowing down to the bone. Its already coming back, but I'm thinking I may just get rid of it so I can bump up all of the plants to the foreground just a bit more. Perhaps keep just an inch and a half between front glass and plants.

Tank is filling up now, but will post some new pics once it clears.


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## vilenarios (Jan 28, 2015)

Decided to put together a Flora map in Visio. I definitely need to reduce the right side by a species. If the ammania doesnt pull through that will probably be it... but then I will have to rethink the overall right side, as the colors are all too similar. If the Ludwigia Arcuata would redden up that would help...

I think this Christmas I'm going to ask Santa for a nice camera for fish pics.


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## vilenarios (Jan 28, 2015)

I violated my first rule of having a fishtank yesterday... I have been SUPER careful about refilling this tank... but yesterday I was letting it fill up and had to go into my garage to get something... 20 minutes later i hear my wife screaming my name, only to come back upstairs to find a couple of inches of water in my office. FU**!!!! I frantically dried everything with every towel in my home, but i think my nice oak floors are already suffering from some cupping thanks to my mistake. Usually i only do a 60% water change, but this time it was probably like 125%

Anyway, plants are looking beautiful with the exception of the Riccardia, which is growing very slowly and some of it just disappears over night. I may pull out the chunk of wood and just make the lobalia street a bit wider. Its time for a trim and retop for the ludwigia arcuata and limno hippuroides. The Nuphar Japonica has the most leaves on it ive ever seen - the thing is a beast of a plant. The bottom left corner is still a bit of a mix of Buces and i put in some anubia nana petite on some rocks. I also made the mistake of adding a dozen red cherry shrimp... much to the delight of the few apistogrammas i have in the tank - as they made a nice dinner for them. 

After another week or two of growing ill try to take some pictures for the 2017 AGA competition. Ultimately, I havent been spending too much time on this tank otherwise though since I am planning on converting my Fluval 12G edge to a reef.

Anyone know what on earth is growing under my java ferns? Looks like tiny egg sacs of some kind...


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Sori most likely..



> Sori occur on the sporophyte generation, the sporangia within producing haploid meiospores. As the sporongia mature, the indusium shrivels so that spore release is unimpeded. The sporangia then burst and release the spores.


Reproductive structures..
Ferns have a complicated life cycle..


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## kalan850 (Aug 21, 2012)

Oh man! I did that earlier this week. Broke my own rule trying to do too many things at once and overflowed my 125. Luckily I caught it in time with only about a .5 gallon on the floor. Hate it when that happins. The tanks looking great though!

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## vilenarios (Jan 28, 2015)

Thanks for the explanation Jeff - although I think i only understood 25% of the words contained in your quote. Im glad those are just spores and not some weird alien organism growing.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Beautiful tank btw..


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