# The Dudes 150 is getting planted.



## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I've had this running for a couple years. It is all male Haps and Peacocks. There is also a breeding albino BN pleco pair, 1 Syno Euruptus, 5 - 6 Syno multipunctatus, and 10 Synodontis lucipinnis. I'm losing interest in it and I want it to be full planted and pressurized C02. I have all the equipment. Just have to plumb in the reactor.
















The cichlids have systematically killed everything. A couple anubias and some unkillable crypts have held on. 
I want to start with something I have always wanted to do... planted HOB's. I have an AC70, AC110 and an XP3. 
















I plan to follow this AWESOME thread.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/2...ay-aquaclear-hobs-updated-again-cleaning.html
I've got some vesicularia moss coming and I was thinking over using that on the spillway. To start I was thinking about some anubias nana on the sponge.
Obviously my lights are on top of the tank, so... I need to add lights for the HOB's. I could do a cheap T8 fixture on the top of the canopy or I could do a single 23w CFL over each HOB. I like this canopy so I want to do this with a minimum of modifications to it. I was thinking of just hanging a CFL over each... I'd love any ideas
The last time I used the cheap dual T8's over a tank they didn't do well...


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

The phish are too small to pan fry!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

This ought a be fun! Are you moving the Bows over to it?

Subscribed.


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## johnson18 (Apr 29, 2011)

Looking forward to seeing this transition. Dude, I hope you’ve got some buddies or a pulley system to move those bad boys! Otherwise I feel for you back. 


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Yep Rainbows and probably Nigerian Reds will go in here. Going to remove all the rocks and do driftwood. It's going to be rough. Some of those stones weigh close to 100lbs.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

So... I'm super tempted to do Congo Tetras again. I was thinking a group.of 12 - 15 Congo Tetras, 2 pair of Nigerian Reds, 1 pair Thomasi... and perhaps a large school of Neons?? I know Neons aren't Africans but I don't know any that are.
Or move all the Rainbows and add to the group. They again will have to share with at least a pair of Nigerian Reds... and then Cardinals, Neons, or maybe Celebes? I could then do 7-8 Congo's in the top 75 with a pair of Nigerian Red Kribensis and a pair of Thomasi and maybe 50 Rummynose?
This tank has to be the nicest tank in the house... nicest fish... my wife isn't crazy about doing it so it's got to be breathtaking. I'm even considering keeping the syno dwarf lucipinnis maybe?? 
Please help me out guys. Might go by the local place tomorrow and rehome them. He sells them.at this size.for like $50 - $60 each.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

So I'm bouncing around. I don't want Congo's since they get so large. I want lamp eye Congo's, but not at $25 a piece plus shipping. I'm thinking I want 50-75 small schooling tetras. I want to keep the synodontis, but I may have to rehome the euruptus. I definately want one or 2 pairs of Nigerian Reds and the Thomasi... so I'm thinking of Lemon Tetras. I can get them for $1 each and they are wider bodied than the Neons, Cardinals, and Rummynose which I'm afraid the synodontis would snack on.
I'd like to keep it all African... but the combination of size, color, and cost are not available as I can see.
I thought Emporers, but I have them with the Rainbows and I don't want to try and catch them and move them. I thought move Rainbows, but I want something new to be honest and I really like how that 75 works and looks. I'm still mulling it over.
For now I need to rehome the cichlids. I also need to replace the Eheim 2213 on the 11.4 with an AC50 to make room for the C02 tank under there. I need some tremendous plant mass so I'll work on growing that out. I also don't want to move my original pair of Kribs so I need to raise some fry.
I'll try to get all this done in the next few weeks and get the C02 going. 
I'm thinking alot of anubias, moss, and java ferns along with some bolbitus. I will probably stay away from stems. Maybe some patches of Marsilia Hirsuta.
If anyone local would like to take all of the Haps and Peacocks they are free.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Cichlids and hardscape will be removed tomorrow. I'm also going to remove a good portion of the substrate and use plain pool filter sand. I don't need any higher pH. Wood has been soaking for a week so we will see what happens


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Cichlids are gone. 








































Unfortunately NONE of the wood is waterlogged yet. It's been soaking for 2 weeks. The large rooted portion is being held down by a piece that was in there previously. The rest of the wood is long twisted thicker branches that will look like roots coming out and then back into the substrate towards the right which will stay open.
I don't have the plant mass that I need either. I'd like one of the roots to be covered in windolev then into some Christmas moss. Probably some of the anubias azfelli along some wood branches in the back. 
No stems in this tank either. Just ferns, mosses, anubias, maybe a hygro kompacta bunch.
I got the rest of the fittings for the reactor. Just need to get a filled bottle. 
Lastly the LFS that I gave my Africans to gave me 25-30 Pristilla tetras and they ordered me 25 Lemons that will be here next week. 
As of right now I'm going to aim for 30 Pristilla tetras and 30 Lemon tetras and see how it looks. I've also got 10 Syno lucipinnis, 5 Syno multipunctatus, and 1 Syno Euruptus. The Euruptus may eventually get big enough to eat some smaller tetras, but I'm going to wait and see what happens. I really like their look.
Suggestions or thoughts? Don't mind the floating anubias... I don't have a place to put it


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

The anubias is tied on and the windolev was tied into bunches. The anubias looks really ratty.. leaves and rhizomes growing every which way. Hopefully it straightens out. The synodontis were a pain knocking out the windolev bunches. Dosing 10ml of metricide daily until I hook up the tank.


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## CharlesV (Dec 24, 2017)

Looking good so far!


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

So today was my first day with a few free hours... and I did not hook up the reactor nor did I get a C02 cylinder. I'm not sure if they are open tomorrow. If they are I will get it hooked up tomorrow. I made up a quick batch of DIY C02, but it's probably pointless. It makes me feel better. I'm also still dosing 10ml of metricide daily.
I was expecting to pick up 25 Lemon Tetras on Wednesday and another 20 today... none of them came in... so hopefully next week.
The hygro seems to be happy, but the windolev does not. I need to get the C02 on there.
I also tossed in a couple more branches. I like the look. I'm hoping another larger piece sinks spon.so I can have a piece of driftwood covered in a clump of bucephelandra. I'm not going to drop the buces in there until the C02 is on there though.


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## Jjonesls1 (Apr 26, 2017)

Good looking scape! A tank that size, with that much free space, is begging for more than tetras. The "cave" needs an inhabitant(s), maybe some type of pleco or a few clowns.

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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Jjonesls1 said:


> Good looking scape! A tank that size, with that much free space, is begging for more than tetras. The "cave" needs an inhabitant(s), maybe some type of pleco or a few clowns.


They only come out under the dim evening lights, but there is a breeding pair of albino BN plecos, a 4" syno Euruptus, 10 Syno lucipinnis, and 4 or 5 Syno multipunctatus.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I've been dragging my feet with some Physics studying so I told myself if I finished the homework today (due Wed) and finished the quiz with 100% that I would drive to the big LFS in Tampa and treat myself. So I did. It was nuts... had to park in the alley... had to have been 20 cars.... and the selection was mind blowing.. brilliant rasbora, emerald eye rasbora, tetras of every type and several I had never heard of.. literally EVERYTHING. So I found my lemon tetras and was waiting for someone to become available... but the next tank over just kept catching my eye.. it was black phantom tetras... then there was blue king tetras... there were several others but I wanted both of these over the lemon tetras... in the end I thought the black phantoms were just too cool.. so I bought 15 and they are getting another 25 for me next week. They have a fantastic contrast to the Pristilla tetras... but now I'm wishing I did blue king tetras and black phantoms only... so what do you guys think about 30 to 40 of each?? 3 groups of tetras in a 150?? 
I'm going to pick up the C02 tank this week. Finished putting together the reactor and just have to actually plumb it in and position everything. I figured I'd do it all at once to make sure there are no issues. 
The reactor will not fit inside the cabinet so I'm attaching it to the center brace on the back of the stand. Should work fine.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

Black phantoms are nice. Take a look at yellow phantoms as well. 


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

mbkemp said:


> Black phantoms are nice. Take a look at yellow phantoms as well.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ooohhhh.... yellow phantoms?? They did not have those... they had red, but those look similar to serpae tetras. In watching them I am torn now between the blue king tetras or lemons... or yellow phantoms... I wanted some kind of breeding, but the synodontis will make that impossible in this tank so I'll just have to stock the numbers I want.

I also really like sparkling gourami's. A group of 6 is kind of appealing.. any experience with those??


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

I love those. I have not owned them. You can’t go wrong with yellow phantoms and sparkling gourami unless you own shrimp


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Woke up to 2 dead black phantoms. One was almost entirely eaten. They all looked fantastic yesterday. So went back and got 6 more, but they gave me 7. So I should be at 20. I also got 3 sparkling Gourami. I don't know why I didn't get a larger group. When I decide on the next group this week I'll add 3 - 5 more. They are really entertaining! Very bold and interactive.
The Lemon tetra is coloring up nicely. I'm thinking that a group would look nice. I definately need more plant mass and cover to bring out the colors, but it's only been a couple days. As a nice round number I'm thinking 30 of 3 species along with my group of sparkling Gourami would be cool.
Any thoughts on the 3rd species? I really like the look of the Lemon Tetras with the bright yellow bodies and red eyes. I'm regretting the Pristilla tetras.. hopefully they improve in appearance over time.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Got the C02 hooked up today, but I'm chasing down a leak somewhere. Looks like it's the XP3 seal... I really hope not. It was fine until I had to tear everything apart today to plumb in the reactor. 
Really no changes in plants and such. Also my LFS couldn't get Lemon tetras... again... and I have a feeling that the other 2 places get them from the same people. 
I did get 3 more sparkling gourami's. 
My LFS has 2 epic stumps for sale... but they might be too big for what I want.

As for stocking I decided I'm just going to stock what I want. Once I get the remainder of the wood and plant mass it's going to be jungle like. So far I'm thinking 20 Lemon Tetras and 20 Super Blue King Tetras. I'm going to choose between what I can get locally due to cost and ease of expanding / replacing school members.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Earlier today
























Picked up a nice piece of mopani.
























No lemon tetras anywhere... but I love Neons. Picked a really good looking group of 20. Probably get to 75 or so in here... and the Lemons and whatever else I like. I think I can do several schools in a tank this size. I also need to work with the regulator. The reactor is working alot better than I anticipated. The needle valve isn't good on this aquatech... so I figured 2bps would be good. Then I wasn't sure if it was actually ENOUGH C02. Cranked it up a flick worth and put the drop checker in. It was enough to have all the fish at the surface within 15 minutes. Put it back to where it was and within 2 hours Ive got a lemon yellow drop checker.. need to turn it down some, but the needle valve isn't very user friendly.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I know I want more wood in the areas in front. I'm thinking another largish piece of mopani would look good and could serve as a little bucephelandra garden. I want to keep the details in the new mopani stump visible... but it needs something on the piece sticking up. Id like to do some bucephelandra there too... or anubias nana petit. 
Or do I go with a branch type thing of maybe some manzanita?
I also packed some subwassertang into one the openings in one of the pieces of wood. I'm not too sure how to plant that stuff..


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Went to pick up the Beckfords yesterday before they opened (I'm in class during all of their open hours Tues - Thurs. Someone already bought the Beckfords.. but that night at the meeting (which i couldn't attend due to exams) someone brought in 10 green neons. So i bought those and another 15 regular. They were doing me a favor so I didn't want to get too greedy. Going back Friday for hopefully 40 Neons and anymore Green Neons. I'd like 30 Green Neons. I'll also get the Pencilfish for the little tank if they get some.
Doesn't seem to be a ton of growth... but most of the plants are slow growers and the crypts had some melt, but they are putting out new leaves now. They probably weren't happy going from a C02 inject3d tab k to a non C02 injected.. and then a week later C02 was added. I'm also having trouble keeping the subwassertang in one area. Apparently the catfish like digging in it and flinging it around.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I'm reminding myself that not having losses with tetras is uncommon. My prior group of 15 which had been in the store for 3 days.. all survived and were moved. Of the 15 Neons and 10 green Neons I have lost 1 green neon and maybe 6 regular Neons. Also had a dead black phantom this morning. No signs of anything wrong with them.. 
In my 75's I haven't lost a fish is months.
Still waiting for the last couple pieces of driftwood to sink so I can finish the hardscape and planting. I'm going to go buy the LFS today. I know they got more Pencilfish, but I may use the 11.4 for QT for a while until I get stocking where I want on the 150. The 2.6 just isn't big enough for the significant group sizes I need to add.
I've also got a little cyanobacteria, but it seems to be halted and maybe slowly regressing already. I'm pretty sure it was due to the low nitrates in the beginning, but I've upped the kno3 dosing. I need to order more though. Between 3 large high tech tanks I went through the entire jar in about 7 months.


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

I was going to recommend some of the larger tall bodied tetras like Bleeding Hearts and the Columbian tetra.

My 50 gallon tank from back in 1992...









Despite the pinkish overall tone Bleeding Hearts are magnificent fish. The Red Phantoms I was keeping with them were also spawning, and despite the chances of the BHT being baby fish eaters, the youngsters managed to hide well enough to increase the population of the Red Phantoms to almost double.

The Sparkling Gouramies are great fish, but I think they're so tiny that they'll get lost in the background of a 130. They tend to be shy and a bit afraid of hanging out in the full light of a planted tank. I had to move mine into a low light 20 gallon with some Harlequin Rasboras and they did much better, fed more easily and were AFAIKT happier..?


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I did see large bleeding heart tetras for the first time a few weeks ago and they are gorgeous. I'm still fumbling around in this tank and I've got some room (I think) to move some schools into one of my 75 gallon planted tanks. I've never had big schools so I'm wanting to see what school and combination is the most striking. 
I can appreciate the concern about the sparkling gourami's in a large tank. I like getting close to it to see what each little busy body is up to. 
Once I decide on what fish school I will choose to expand (maybe 2 schools) I'll consider some other stuff. I've got a 265 that I'm hoping to have setup by August so plenty of room to move fish around.
That being said I'm still finding the Neon/Cardinal schools the most striking in a dense green tank. More than likely I will try for 125-150 Neons / Cardinals and maybe a smaller school of green Neons (like 30). 
Still waiting on a group of Lemon tetras... that single Lemon tetra always catches my eye. I'm also thinking ahead a little and if I have success breeding the Beckfords pencilfish I may do a group of 40 or 50 of those.. 
I'm GREATLY enjoying this tank with its current direction. More than I have ever enjoyed any tank. Pretty enjoyable visiting the LFS twice a week and coming home with 25-30 fish each time. Unfortunately the stocking is getting pretty heavy and some of the fish are settling in meaning quarantine of any new fish will be necessary. Couldn't keep the 11.4 as a QT so I will have to set up a 20 long going forward. I never manage to grab the entire 50-75 Neons when they come in and it's not fair to pay for the initial losses when they come in... or when they are sitting there.. for me or the LFS. So I get what I get when I come in. 
































Working on my picture taking skills so they don't always come out so washed out. Really captures the look I see of the Neons when they are grouped around the one completed stump
Still waiting on the other pieces of wood to sink so I can finish the hardscape on the other side. I'm thinking of using needle leaf java fern up the main piece leading to the surface of the tank. The fish really appreciate stuff higher up as they only use that portion of the tank on the side with the stump.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

That's looking better and better each time. I'll second the Bleeding Hearts. With all of the smaller bodied species you've got in there, something a bit larger will help bring some visual diversity and interest. Emperor Tetras would also go nicely in there. Their dark color would contrast well with the ones you've got already. 

Keep it up Dude!


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

The thing about Bleeding Hearts is that you usually find them as 3/4" to 1" sizes and they don't really impress anyone at that size, as they're sorta like over grown young Serpaes. 

You have to grow them up for at least a couple years before the males get that beautiful pinnate dorsal and the amazing shimmery reddish purple body sheen. That color is always best seen in side light, like early morning sunlight slanting into the room. It's a lot like the same color Flame Tetras get when they're in prime condition.

BHT are a bit boisterous, but always among themselves like any healthy Tetra. The males spar, side display and will endlessly chase each other through the thickets, it's harmless, they don't shred plants like Silver Dollars and Buenos Aires Tetras do.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

It doesn't make any sense to have the two 75 gallons pretty much done... but in another room and only looked them occasionally. Figured I'd take most of what I need to get this tank closer... and a chance to make some changes to the hardscape in the lower tank. 
I am trying to decide how I'm going to get plant mass higher up... I wanted to add a large group of crypt Balansae to the area in the middle closer to the new stump, but I didn't have enough and I didn't want to chance losing it due to melt. Hopefully it starts producing some new plants. I've got that massive red flame sword.. but it would ruin the scale I'm trying to create. I also don't want stems... I think some patches of Marsilia Hirsuta would look cool and it's going pretty fast and spreading quickly in my 75 so I took a patch. 
Anyone know how tall bolbitus gets?? It was at the top of the tank and laying along the top in the 75 so it may not have reached its max height. Maybe some kind of Hydrocotyle floating?


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## lisals (Jun 21, 2017)

No idea on the bolbitus... just wanted to comment on how amazing it's looking. It all looks great, but I REALLY love what you've done with the right side.
The way the plants and wood look together looks so natural but still so clean too. It's looking awesome!


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

lisals said:


> No idea on the bolbitus... just wanted to comment on how amazing it's looking. It all looks great, but I REALLY love what you've done with the right side.
> The way the plants and wood look together looks so natural but still so clean too. It's looking awesome!


Thank you! I ravaged the other tanks, but I think it will give them the opportunity for new growth. There was so much bolbitus stuffed in there that there was very little room for light to reach new growth and the oldest growth was getting BBA on the leaves. I intentionally lrt the bolbitus and windolev get very dense in the hopes of getting some Emporer Tetra fry. But all of the hungry rainbows and the fry predating emporers have shown me that my hopes were futile. I think the Emporers are too large to go in the 2.6 breeding tank given their proclivity to violence... so if I want more I will have to buy and quarantine them... which doesn't particularly appeal to me. My stocking is so close to what I want that the idea of anything getting into one of the tanks gives me nightmares.
Apparently bolbitus grows REALLY slow... like a couple months for a frond... or really fast... I tried to position the filter outakes to hit the bolbitus to keep flow high. 
After these pics were taken I took out some of the crypt ponterifollia and put a couple more stems of hygro kompacta in the middle. Also placed a large rhizome of bolbitus behind it on the wood that runs along the back of the tank. I like the bushy look especially with bolbitus, but there was no way I was going to be able to secure enough rhizomes on that wood without tearing down my driftwood roots on the left side... and that took me weeks to get right and the windolev is just starting to attach. 

I'm going to do some calling around today and see if... again.... anyone got lemon tetras. 
I may end up moving one or two of the groups to one of the 75 gallons. The Rainbow tank has 10 Emporer tetras which I love and I'm considering moving to this tank. I would need at least 15 more. Even full grown they don't have much of a presence on their own and they don't really school or shoal. They are very cichlid like.


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## touch of sky (Nov 1, 2011)

I agree, it is looking great!


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Wrote out this long post and the token expired... 
I am hoping the bolbitus grows quickly. I've got portions in 3 high tech tanks now growing out. I also want to add some c. balansae in the middle area near the smaller stump. I'd also like some ranunculus inundatus near the larger stump / cave. A member graciously pointed out some deficiencies so I'm waiting on some Ca, Mg, and Fe to rectify the problems. 
The tank is an amalgamation of decent sized groups while I decide what I want to stock. 
Right now it's
6 Sparkling gourami's 
65 Neons
10 Green Neons 
25 Pristilla tetras 
22 Black phantom tetra 
30 Glowlight tetras
I definately want a massive group of Neons. Maybe 50 more. I love the Sparkling Gourami's so they are staying. I really like all of them and I am also hoping to get some Beckfords pencilfish breeding so those are an option.
I've got room in other tanks to move a couple groups. I like having large groups of small fish so the Beckfords are the largest I'm considering at this point.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Can anyone suggest how much Ca, Mg, and Fe I should start with for a 75 gallon high tech tank? I'm assuming double for a 150? Do I need to dose on a separate day from macro's? What about CSM+B?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Ca: 15-20ppm; I'd start with the 15 and work your way up. Aroids need a lot of Ca in aquariums so don't be surprised if you have to increase the dose quickly.

Mg: 5ppm to start with and add more if the plants start showing signs if interveinal chlorosis.

Fe: about 0.1ppm to start with.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Phil Edwards said:


> Ca: 15-20ppm; I'd start with the 15 and work your way up. Aroids need a lot of Ca in aquariums so don't be surprised if you have to increase the dose quickly.
> 
> Mg: 5ppm to start with and add more if the plants start showing signs if interveinal chlorosis.
> 
> Fe: about 0.1ppm to start with.


I was hoping for x teaspoons, but I suppose there is tremendous variation in municipal sources. I'll need to buy test kits.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

If I had the space, I would go for a huge school of Red Eyes.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I was VERY close to doing red eye tetras.. I think they called them head and tail light tetras? Are those the same? There were only a few though. I think I would prefer them to the Pristilla tetras possibly. The Lemon Tetras have bright red on The eyes and a really nice bright yellow color... I just can't find them.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I don't know if I have serious deficiencies in this tank yet or if they are resultant from my other tanks from which they originated. 
I was dosing 2 times per week. I'm going to add a third day.

3/4 tsp KNO3
1/2 tsp KH2P04
1/2 tsp K2S04

I'm going to add 
2 tbsp of Ca 
2/3 tbsp Mg

On opposing days I do 1/2 tsp CSM+B 
Add 1/8 tsp Fe 

Originally I wanted a nice easy to maintain tank of slower growing plants and enough C02 to keep them happy and healthy without too much work. I suppose that was unrealistic given the plant mass I want to keep.
The fish are doing awesome and honestly I don't think I'm going to remove any of them. I really like the diversity. I still want to add at least 15-20 lemon tetras as I have only 1 and he does not seem happy by himself. I want another 50 Neons... other than that a single pair of Nigerian Reds would really do it for me I think. I'm very surprised by the changes in the Pristilla tetras. Their tails are getting bright red and the yellow and white on their fins contrast nicely with their larger silver body shape. Not only do I no longer regret buying them, but I really enjoy them.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Bump:








Growth has been fantastic this week with the addition of Ca and Mg as well as increasing everything else and adding iron to the CSM+B. The greens are much brighter and deeper and the plants look much healthier.
When I went to the LFS hoping to get more green Neons and Beckfords pencilfish, I saw that they had 12 Green flame tetras... but again no green Neons, no pencils, and again no Lemon tetras. 
I'm going to just order what I want.
I'm thinking 20 Green Neons
Now green fire (They hang out much higher.. and I just like them)
And 10-15 Beckfords that I will actually move to a breeding tank.
Additionally I think 2 of the green fire tetras... are something else... one I'm pretty certain is a female threadfin. The other... I don't know. 
Regardless the tank and fish are doing awesome! I just need to add to my schools without starting any more new ones.
Of course I got more Neons.. 20 I think. I don't really know how many I've got yet so I'm hoping I can get 30 more next week and be done with them at least.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

There are a few Lemon Tetra auctions on aquabid atm.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

ChrisX said:


> There are a few Lemon Tetra auctions on aquabid atm.


Ya I'm going to see how much money I can stash away real quick and see if I can get all.... or most of what I still want from a single seller on there to make shipping costs worthwhile.
One of the sellers on there has Lemon Tetras, Black phantom tetras, and Beckfords Pencilfish. I think that would be worthwhile... I'd really like to get more green fire and green Neons too, but those aren't as easy to find apparently. I'm spoiled with the occassional offerings at my LFS. Green fire for $2 each, Beckfords for $3 each and Green Neons for $1.50 each. When they have Lemons they are only $1 each.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> When they have Lemons they are only $1 each.


Now you know why they never have any in stock!


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Got my Lemon Tetras today!! 25 of them. I'm going to need to move at least one group. Picking up another 40 Neons tomorrow or Friday. I'm thinking I may rehome the Pristila tetras and Glowlight tetras. Keep just the Neons, Black Phantom tetras, and Lemon Tetras. About 120 Neons and groups of 30 for the other 2.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Well.... all but 8 Neons were already sold. So I got the 8. I inspected the Lemons
when I picked them up... but I must have missed something as I lost 2 overnight from apparently very subtle fin rot. In total I've probably lost 6 or 7 now. Moved a couple to QT and they died within a few minutes... I guess they are just really stressed. Decided to dose some Paragaurd to the entire tank and do daily water changes for the next 3 days. As of right now all of the remaining fish look perfect. Everyone is eating.. the affected fish wouldn't eat, but I assumed that was them adjusting and normal. I'm going to pick up another 10 tomorrow and put them into my little QT tank. They ordered like 45 and I only got 25. I added some Neons and have yet to lose any... stupid stupid stupid...10 more Lemons and 30 more Neons that will be there Wed will have stocking where I want it. It is definately heavily stocked but the colors and movement are awesome. 
The bolbitus, lobelia cardinalis, and Marsilia Hirsuta that I transplanted from the other tanks are starting to adjust and put out some new growth. I've been hacking at the bolbitus pretty hard to remove the leaves with heavy BBA. I'm thinking about setting a powerhead back there blasting right on the Bolbitus, but that will preclude it's use for catching eggs and keep them from the parents... everything is growing much better since adding the Ca and Mg thank you Seattle Aquarist! 
I want to add some ranunculus inundatus in one area and some buces on a few small pieces of mopani. I'm really enjoying this tank. Toying with the idea of calling it my $1 tetra tank. The synodontis were pricey and the Black phantoms were a little more, but I paid $1 each for Neons, Lemon Tetras, Pristilla tetras and the Glowlight tetras!! I think I paid $2 each for the Sparkling gourami's.


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## Aframomum (May 23, 2015)

Your tank is really looking good. I like the large schools of neons - they really do contrast very well against all the green from the plants. Nice!


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

The carnage appears to have stopped. Everyone looks good and is eating voraciously. In all I lost about half the lemon tetras... maybe 13... I'm going today to get more Neons to hopefully finish out stocking for this tank as well as breeding groups for two separate breeding tanks. I may get a few more lemon tetras if they are healthy. I wanted about 20 as that is the smallest school size I have in the tank and keeping numbers up makes it less haphazard looking. I think 40 Neons should do it. Put 30 into the main tank and 5 into each breeding tank and start building up some tannins. 
No Nigerian Red fry yet... so the syno's have full run of the caves. You rarely see them until food hits the water and then it's like a swarm of sharks. Really cool looking.
Anubias leaves have regained normal shape and coloration... again thanks Seattle Aquarits and Greggz. Bolbitus finally seems to have woken up and started putting out some new fronds. I'm gradually hacking off anything with BBA buildup and they appear to grow faster with each hack job. 
I'm going to start researching buces next. I want something easy to grow with cool purple, pink, and blue colors. I'm very pleased with how this tank is coming along. I really enjoy it and find myself looking a reason to sit at the table and watch it.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

It doesn't look like there is more than 200 fish in there


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I'm getting VERY frustrated again with these Neons. I've lost maybe 7 in the last 4 days?? 7 perfect looking fish. I noticed one fish developing some fin rot/fungus on the tail. I couldn't catch him so I dosed some Paragaurd. Two days later he is now looking better, but 2 other fish died today and a 3rd has a colorless spot on his side! He is not staying in the group, but again he is too fast for me to catch!! I'm relatively certain it's fungal, but man this is getting old... this is why I need to figure out the breeding thing. Of this group of 40 I put 30 in the main tank, 5 added to the 11.4 with the previous 4 and 5 into the 2.6. Down to 4 in the 2.6, 2 in the 11.4 and I've lost at least 7 in the main tank. I'm really beginning to consider stripping the 75 and taking the 65-80 in there and transferring them. Having 2 tanks with 100+ Neons is just too tedious. But then.... nothing gives the pop of a Neon or Cardinal. Well... Rainbow fish, but I've got a tank of those..
Maybe I'll transfer all the Glowlights. Ive got at least 5 that look like they're ready to pop.. I could likely seperate a couple and get some fry.

What do you guys think would give the greatest pop and diversity, but still be cohesive?? I was thinking about following some earlier recommendations and moving my Flameback Bleeding Heart tetras in here. I've got 9 or 10 I think?
Then maybe all of the Neons and Cardinals total which would put me at about 200 and then possibly one other group?? 
I have 
25 Lemon Tetras 
25 Pristilla tetras 
30 Glowlight tetras
20 Black phantom tetra 

In my Rainbow tank I have 10 large Emporer tetras and the aforementioned Flameback bleeding heart tetras (really like these)

In the other 75 is the remaining Neons / Cardinals, 10 Rummynose and 10 Celebes Rainbows. What you you put with what??

I'm also thinking Flameback Bleeding Heart tetras, Emporer tetras, and Neons / Cardinals would look really cool in the 150. I'd need more Emporer Tetras and more Flameback Bleeding Hearts.

Put the Lemon Tetras with the Rainbows and the glowlights in the other tank. Not sure which would be best for the Pristilla tetras. I guess the Rainbow tank, but that's 50 tetras in addition to the Rainbows..


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Had to thin out the anubias nana in one of the 75's. I also think I'm going to rip out the lackluster lobelia cardinalis on the right side and getting a large grouping of windolev in that area in the hopes of an occasional fry. The glowlights are dropping eggs all over the place


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Looking good man! Keep up hope with those Neons, a lot of them are still wild caught.


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## david00061 (Mar 11, 2018)

ChrisX said:


> If I had the space, I would go for a huge school of Red Eyes.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVxFaEy4WUc


I'm going to have to get a hundred of these guys


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

The lobelia cardinalis on the right side just wasn't looking like I wanted. It was just sitting there. Took it out. I moved the portion of bolbitus from the left side of the center plants and have it all on the right side. The portion that was there previously had some bad BBA, but after the H202 dip it's gone... but it still needs to recover I guess. 
Also added 60 Neons. I know it's a risk, but it was either this tank or the 75 with the Nigerian Reds which are more important to me and then try to get them out in a month. I spent about an hour looking over them and could not find anything in any fashion that wasn't perfect. Dosed a full dose of Paragaurd just in case. 
It sure doesn't LOOK like there's more than 150 Neons in there. The total fish load is good though. Lots of action and movement. I may move some fish around at some point. Maybe move all of the Neons and Cardinals into this tank and move the Pristilla's and Black phantom's into that 75 gallon tank. I added the last 3 Flameback Bleeding Heart tetras to my Rainbow tank bringing the number to 12. If I moved the Flameback Bleeding Heart tetras and Emporer Tetras from that tank to the 150 and move the Lemons and maybe even the glowlights into that Rainbow tank?? That would look really cool, but I would need to add to both groups I think. 
It would bring the stocking of this tank to about 225 Neons and Cardinals, 25 Emporer Tetras, and I'd love to get up to 25 Flameback tetras.


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## david00061 (Mar 11, 2018)

Looks fantastic.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> I'm getting VERY frustrated again with these Neons. I've lost maybe 7 in the last 4 days?? 7 perfect looking fish. I noticed one fish developing some fin rot/fungus on the tail. I couldn't catch him so I dosed some Paragaurd. Two days later he is now looking better, but 2 other fish died today and a 3rd has a colorless spot on his side! He is not staying in the group, but again he is too fast for me to catch!! I'm relatively certain it's fungal, but man this is getting old... this is why I need to figure out the breeding thing. Of this group of 40 I put 30 in the main tank, 5 added to the 11.4 with the previous 4 and 5 into the 2.6. Down to 4 in the 2.6, 2 in the 11.4 and I've lost at least 7 in the main tank. I'm really beginning to consider stripping the 75 and taking the 65-80 in there and transferring them. Having 2 tanks with 100+ Neons is just too tedious. But then.... nothing gives the pop of a Neon or Cardinal. Well... Rainbow fish, but I've got a tank of those..
> Maybe I'll transfer all the Glowlights. Ive got at least 5 that look like they're ready to pop.. I could likely seperate a couple and get some fry.
> 
> What do you guys think would give the greatest pop and diversity, but still be cohesive?? I was thinking about following some earlier recommendations and moving my Flameback Bleeding Heart tetras in here. I've got 9 or 10 I think?
> ...



Honestly, i wouldnt try breeding them until you have a stable population. My 25 neons in 10g have been stable for six months now. If they are dying, they arent going to start spawning. I think part of fish health is psychology, if they are stressed, they may succumb to even minor disease or just give up.

Btw i solved my neon sb problem. I release flake crumbs below waterline..after eating they
are still level. Floating flakes they gulped air and would swim nose down several hours after eating.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

ChrisX said:


> Honestly, i wouldnt try breeding them until you have a stable population. My 25 neons in 10g have been stable for six months now. If they are dying, they arent going to start spawning. I think part of fish health is psychology, if they are stressed, they may succumb to even minor disease or just give up.
> 
> Btw i solved my neon sb problem. I release flake crumbs below waterline..after eating they
> are still level. Floating flakes they gulped air and would swim nose down several hours after eating.


These guys are just display. I'm not pretending that I could select a plump female out of here and actually catch her without destroying the tank. 
The 4 in the 2.6 have been in there for about a month so I'm still trying to plump them up a little. They will be moved to the 11.4 when spawning is complete. I figure they've got at least 2 months before any actual spawning could take place. I still haven't figured all this out considering the parameters in the spawning tanks will be drastically different from the display tanks. 
This will probably be my last addition to this tank given the chance of disease. I still want to add to my 75 gallon though


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I'm going to post in the plant forum but does anyone know if a straight H202 dip on bolbitus fronds would kill them?? I have it in 2 tanks. Both had between alot and a moderate amount of BBA that was beginning to affect the overall health of the plants. I dipped the group from the 75 and the park and the 150. One week later ALL of the bolbitus from the 150 that was dipped had dead fronds. I'm hoping the rhizomes are still good so I put them in another high tech tank to monitor. The batch from the 75 looks good... health has definately improved since the BBA was killed by the dip. Did the H202 kill it and not the other batch?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

The Dude1 said:


> I'm going to post in the plant forum but does anyone know if a straight H202 dip on bolbitus fronds would kill them?? I have it in 2 tanks. Both had between alot and a moderate amount of BBA that was beginning to affect the overall health of the plants. I dipped the group from the 75 and the park and the 150. One week later ALL of the bolbitus from the 150 that was dipped had dead fronds. I'm hoping the rhizomes are still good so I put them in another high tech tank to monitor. The batch from the 75 looks good... health has definately improved since the BBA was killed by the dip. Did the H202 kill it and not the other batch?


Yes, straight H2O2 dips will kill them. I've killed Anubias with straight, or not diluted enough, H2O2 dips. You're better off trimming 90% of the fronds than doing a high concentration dip. If you can increase the flow to the Bolbitis (even more?) that'll help them recover faster. They really do like flow.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

So I moved a little 425gph Koralia powerhead right next to the bolbitus hoping to maximize growth and minimize BBA build up. Id love to have a dense background of Bolbitus in the near future. It eventually grew in my high tech 75, but it was never the nice algae free bright green fern that I've seen in other tanks.
I had a few Neons develop bacterial infections which is common when I add them. I've probably euthenized 5 or 6 of my last group... so not quite as good as normal. Additionally a black phantom showed up today with a bad bacterial infection. I dosed a second dose of Paragaurd today. Everyone else seems really good. Going to add 25-30 Neons to my 11.4 to QT for now. I'll dispense them between my 150 and 75 in 3 to 4 weeks. I figure another month before I can start anticipating some breeding. I'd like to keep at least 12 in the 11.4 in addition to my breeding group of 4 just to rotate them around.
I'd like to pack the right side with java fern. I think that would be cool looking.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Hoping to fill that entire left side with java fern. Id also like to add a nice group of windolev on the inner end of the wood on the left.
Added 30 Neons to QT yesterday... I would have liked more, but that's pushing it in a 11 gallon tank.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Ordered 2 large clumps of bucephelandra from junglefowl. I'm not entirely sure where to put them. Tying them to the roots will require the dismantling of the wood caves and that took a very long time to get right. Then I thought of just securing them to small pieces of mopani, but I would like some that are incorporated into the layout. I may secure some individually to the black lava rock and plac3 them at the base of the roots. I also found a Buce attached to the inner part of the driftwood. Must have floated in there at some point, when the withering rhizomes were floating around while I was trying to remove them and transition them to emersed in the hopes that they recover. It's only got 3 leaves, but it's healthy. The rhizomes in the emersed bins are putting out new leaves, but growth is very slow. I don't know when or if they will ever see an aquarium again.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

Just finished reading this thread today. Can't wait to see how another big tetra tank goes besides mine! 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

chayos00 said:


> Just finished reading this thread today. Can't wait to see how another big tetra tank goes besides mine!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


The evolution of the aquarist amuses me. I started with a betta... like most of us... then the big cichlids... because they are aggressive and "cool"... then on to Africans... lastly a Peacock / Hap tank... eventually I ended up more concerned about the environment I was able to create... and those "boring" tetras became some of the most desirable fish.
I'm still hoping to have some success breeding Neons for the simple fact that I can't get enough of them. Unfortunately I haven't had your success thus far. I've got 6 20 long tanks in the garage that I intended to use for breeding. Just don't have the time or air conditioned space to set them up in this house.
I was thinking about your Von Rio deaths. The hardyness of my tetras have followed a very predictable species related pattern for the most part.
Lowest to highest hardiness
Cardinals - Rummynose - Neons - Black phantom tetra - Lemon tetra - Glowlight - Emporer tetra - Flameback bleeding heart 
Lemon Tetras may be a little higher up. My first group I lost half. Second group no losses at all.
It seems once a fish makes it about 2 weeks they are 100% good to go.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

The tank is progressing amazingly. I think I finally stumbled onto success. The Buce from junglefowl looks terrific and the portions were fantastic. I'm going to get 2 or 3 large clumps of the kedagang (thin long leaved type) this week and see if I can get it running up the stump on the right side. I also cleared out several spots in the 75's, but I'll post pics of those later on. This tank gets priority. I'd love to add 50 more Neons if I could get any through QT. I'm very happy that I did not add that last group and dose the tank as I have done before. Also no fish deaths... the tank has really been a bright spot for me lately. The crypt lutea between the stump on the left and the hygro kompacta has started to fill in and stand up. I'm just really pleased for once.
I have plans on buying a UV sterilizer to put on the QT tank until I get numbers up to where I want them and then transferring it to this tank. Maybe turn it on one hour a week or something?? Any of You try the less expensive ones?? I think Sunsun makes one?? Should I do 2 of them? The ones I was considering were like $40 a piece


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I swear I am the luckiest guy alive. My wonderful wife saw how stressed and how much I've been working this semester and got me a $300 Visa gift card "for fish stuff". I just spent $50 last week on the buces and she saw how excited I was and was listening when I was telling her how close the big tank was to where I wanted it to be. I told her one big clump of Buce and maybe 75 more Neons. 
I ordered the clump today of the narrow leaf red kind Aurora?? And since I've got some cash I decided to consolidate. Got all of the Neons and Cardinals out of the 75 except for maybe 5 or 10 and added them to the 150. I've got over 200 in there now and it's a sight.
I'm not 100% positive that I shouldn't remove one of the group's, but I like it even if it is a little diverse. The cardinals look insane in this tank... and the ones from the 75 are a good deal older and more resilient than the guys in here. Haven't lost one in either tank in several weeks... probably months from the 75. So now I've got a ton of room to do something in the 75. There are maybe 9-10 Rummynose in there and 12 Celebes in addition to the Kribs and Thomasi... I'm thinking of adding 30 Rummynose.


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## The Bungulo (Aug 28, 2017)

is nice.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Got the Buce "aurora" today. Gorgeous clump. Put a couple rhizomes on lava rocks to grow out for other tanks. Put the remainder here. I really like it.








FTS showing my 2 new additions of Buce.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Still have noticeable cupping of leaves and hooking of leaf tips. I've been dosing 3 tsp of Ca and 1 tsp of Mg at each water change every 7 days. Same symptoms in my 2 75 gallon tanks. I'm adding 1 tsp of Ca and 1/3 tsp of Mg. I have pretty hard water and slow growing plants. In surprised I'm having these issues..


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Turns out Ca and Mg are supposed to be dosed in Tbsp, not tsp... I will need to order a large amount of both in the next week. 
Added 1 tbsp of Ca and 1/3 tbsp Mg to this tank.
Added 2 tsp of Ca and 2/3 tsp of Mg to each of the 75's and I'll see if things improve. The anubias nana is growing really fast in all of my tanks... which is a good thing. I have to trim many of the older leaves to start knocking back the BBA that has taken hold in my tanks.

Bump: You guys think if I removed the 25 Pristilla tetras that I could add 12 lamp eye Congo's to this tank?? I guess I could also remove the lemon tetras or black phantoms... the lamp eyes are yellowish so the lemon tetras are redundant.


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## lisals (Jun 21, 2017)

OOO that was so awesome of your wife. Give her a giant high five for all of us in the hobby lol.
No idea on the fish, just wanted to drop in and say your tank is looking amazing!
What's the plant on the far left? The one up front that is growing to the top?


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

lisals said:


> OOO that was so awesome of your wife. Give her a giant high five for all of us in the hobby lol.
> No idea on the fish, just wanted to drop in and say your tank is looking amazing!
> What's the plant on the far left? The one up front that is growing to the top?


Thank You! I think it's Hydrocotyle Leu.... something? Maybe just Brazilian pennywort?? I got it from a buddy. It's pretty much the only fast growing plant in any of my tanks. It also rots away super fast if areas don't get light. 
I'm thinking that gift card is going to the lamp eye Congo's. I will tell you this.... C02 is so much easier than low tech... so much more enjoyable...


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## lisals (Jun 21, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> I will tell you this.... C02 is so much easier than low tech... so much more enjoyable...


Lol... Yeah.. I don't ever remember having any major problems when I had co2 going.. well.. other than not seeing that the tank ran out and having to go get more, but still not a huge problem or anything heh. Sigh..... those were the days :wink2:


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

CO2's great for low tech tanks too! Looking forward to seeing those Congos.


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## johnson18 (Apr 29, 2011)

The Dude1 said:


> Thank You! I think it's Hydrocotyle Leu.... something? Maybe just Brazilian pennywort?? I got it from a buddy. It's pretty much the only fast growing plant in any of my tanks. It also rots away super fast if areas don't get light.
> I'm thinking that gift card is going to the lamp eye Congo's. I will tell you this.... C02 is so much easier than low tech... so much more enjoyable...


Hydrocotyle leucocephala. Great stuff, my 90p is stuffed with it.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

So I've decided to forgo the Neon breeding and try Rummynose perhaps.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...lackwater-rummynose-tetra-breeding-tanks.html
I've got to bring both tanks up to my tap parameters so I can transfer the remaining Neons into my 150 and the Rummynose into these. In the meantime I noticed I've got some super robust Glowlights and I hear they're easy to spawn. 
























I figure you can never have too many Glowlights. They're like JELLO. There's always room for Jello.
I will have to set up at least a couple of the 20 longs on the rack in the garage to transfer the Rummynose to after they spawn. Can't put them back into their tank due to water chemistry differences. In the meantime I CAN place 2 robust female glowlights and 1 male, feed them live food and check daily for the stomachs to return to a normal size. Then plop them right back into the 150 and raise the fry in the tank.
Figure I should start off with a relatively forgiving species. I don't really know where I would put them because I'd like to keep just Rummynose, Celebes, the Nigerian Reds, and the Thomasi in the 75 that I took the other 55-70 Neons / Cardinals from.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

So I removed 2 very robust Glowlights and 2 what I believe to be males and placed them in the 11.4. I also added the last of my "breeding" group of Neons to the 150. There were only 8 or 9 total. 
I inadvertently learned how quickly those glass lids get caked over with mineral deposits... it was crazy!! My tank looks 30% brighter! Ive got to say... I'm really becoming fond of the idea of a massive school of Neons and a school of maybe 100 Glowlights in here... Maybe move out the other full bodied Tetras. Haven't ordered the Lamp Eye Congo's yet. I'm thinking of completely rehoming the Pristilla tetras and moving the black phantoms and Lemon tetras into other tanks.. maybe their own 20 longs?? I'm definitely unwilling to part with any inhabitants of the top 75 gallon. I also think that the bottom 75 gallon would really be most enjoyable with a large group of Rummynose without the addition of any other species.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> So I removed 2 very robust Glowlights and 2 what I believe to be males and placed them in the 11.4. I also added the last of my "breeding" group of Neons to the 150. There were only 8 or 9 total.
> I inadvertently learned how quickly those glass lids get caked over with mineral deposits... it was crazy!! My tank looks 30% brighter! Ive got to say... I'm really becoming fond of the idea of a massive school of Neons and a school of maybe 100 Glowlights in here... Maybe move out the other full bodied Tetras. Haven't ordered the Lamp Eye Congo's yet. I'm thinking of completely rehoming the Pristilla tetras and moving the black phantoms and Lemon tetras into other tanks.. maybe their own 20 longs?? I'm definitely unwilling to part with any inhabitants of the top 75 gallon. I also think that the bottom 75 gallon would really be most enjoyable with a large group of Rummynose without the addition of any other species.


I moved about 6 glowlights into a 20g breeding setup. Let's see who gets babies first! I'm thinking I need to put some peat into some pantyhose and plop it into the tank too, as I've seen they are blackwater fish too. But also that they drop 120-200 eggs at a time. Plus I just got an intank brineshrimp Hatcher that I'm gonna try. As well as I've got vinegar worms that I can harvest, as I've had them for about two months now breeding in two different containers. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

​


chayos00 said:


> I moved about 6 glowlights into a 20g breeding setup. Let's see who gets babies first! I'm thinking I need to put some peat into some pantyhose and plop it into the tank too, as I've seen they are blackwater fish too. But also that they drop 120-200 eggs at a time. Plus I just got an intank brineshrimp Hatcher that I'm gonna try. As well as I've got vinegar worms that I can harvest, as I've had them for about two months now breeding in two different containers.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I've already got a little media bag filled with Sera peat granules in there! Are you going to keep the lights out from here on out or what are you going to do?? The two females looked like they were about to burst.. there's about a 2" layer of moss over the entire substrate and probably a dozen oak leaves strewn about. The success or failure of this venture may have a substantial impact on my stocking choices for the 150... so I'm hopeful!! My only concern would be that your fish are in a much lower pH and softer water and already acclimated to it. Might give you an advantage. We'll see!


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> ​
> I've already got a little media bag filled with Sera peat granules in there! Are you going to keep the lights out from here on out or what are you going to do?? The two females looked like they were about to burst.. there's about a 2" layer of moss over the entire substrate and probably a dozen oak leaves strewn about. The success or failure of this venture may have a substantial impact on my stocking choices for the 150... so I'm hopeful!! My only concern would be that your fish are in a much lower pH and softer water and already acclimated to it. Might give you an advantage. We'll see!


This tank I've got chunks of Cholla wood with a bunch of small Java ferns in it so I didn't do the mass dumping of peat moss. I have a small tub of Süsswassertang in there to give them a spot to egg drop, as well as I put a spawning mop in the water right above it. I'll get a pic of what it looks like tomorrow. For the light dimming, I just got a bag of red root floaters that I'm going to let cover the tank. I used frogbit to dim the Kerri tetras tank in the same manner. 

For your water start some RO or distilled water to soften it down some. Just do a slow acclimation. Can always just get a 5g bucket and lid and get some water from a place that dispenses drinking water. That's how I started. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

chayos00 said:


> This tank I've got chunks of Cholla wood with a bunch of small Java ferns in it so I didn't do the mass dumping of peat moss. I have a small tub of Süsswassertang in there to give them a spot to egg drop, as well as I put a spawning mop in the water right above it. I'll get a pic of what it looks like tomorrow. For the light dimming, I just got a bag of red root floaters that I'm going to let cover the tank. I used frogbit to dim the Kerri tetras tank in the same manner.
> 
> For your water start some RO or distilled water to soften it down some. Just do a slow acclimation. Can always just get a 5g bucket and lid and get some water from a place that dispenses drinking water. That's how I started.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I was reading last night and it seems your way is the more productive method. With the tanks densely planted and moss all over it seems sometimes they just hide. Maybe I'll rearrange today. I've got about 10 gallons of RO and another 5 gallons of tap that's been soaking with a gallon bag of peat and oak leaf extract with a powerhead for several weeks. If they are still plump today I'll do a small water change and feed some mosquito larvae. Apparantly the gauntlet has been thrown down!


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I keep looking into the tank and it doesn't seem like there are over 200 Neons... I was watching the syno Euruptus and his mouth doesn't look big enough to eat a Neon. Also last night I watched him for more than an hour with just the night lights on and he doesn't seem at all interested. Either way he's going to have to go here in the near future.
I went to the big LFS today and saw some really nice looking Neons... so I got another 20. Hopefully they all make it through QT. Added some Amano shrimp last week and saw all 3 last night in the Hydrocotyle.
I also went on a massive hack in this tank. All of the damaged or BBA infected leaves had to go. Only spots left is on some of the Bucephelandra leaves. I'll trim those or make up an H2O2 dip and quickly dip them.
Also took out every piece of wood with BBA and scrubbed and dumped H2O2 on them. I actually didn't put half of it back. It was just taking up too much space and not adding any visual appeal at this point. Hopefully I'm ahead of all the BBA and can stay there.

Bump:
















Sorry about the glare


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Final step in my all out war with BBA today. Took out the brownie blue which is the only one of my Buces with any BBA. Mixed up some gluteraldehyde for a dip given my poor results with H2O2. Mixed 1 part glut to 3 parts water. Dipped just the affected leaves for about 7 seconds and then washed them off. Broke them up and tied them to various pieces of driftwood throughout the tank. I'm really hoping it doesn't kill the leaves, but I had to do it at some point.
Also trimmed all the hygro kompacta leaves with any BBA or damage. This has been a pain... I've had to mow down most of the plants in both tanks. I'm going to do some research into BBA and see what I may be able to do to kill the spores without killing inhabitants.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Moved the syno Euruptus out today. Also had tremendous luck with the 1:3 glut solution. Killed all the BBA and didn't damage a single leaf. I'm probably going to add more Neons and Cardinals. It doesn't look like near 200 to me... and it's not possible to get a decent count.

Bump:
















Does it look like 200 Neons to you?
































And my buces...


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## dmastin (Jun 19, 2009)

Great pics Dude I've been wanting to see your neons in all their glory.
BTW, you're wonderful advice regarding hospital/quarantine tanks which I took quite seriously absolutely backfired as you predicted it would.
Now I have four main tanks.
Seriously though, after I realized even hospital and quarantine tanks really should be cycled why not add a piece of slim wood and dragon stone, I've always wanted to try dragon stone etc.
Ok, back to your tanks.
How about a little movie. Seems like we really need some video, although even with video it's difficult to capture how great I imagine they look in person.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

Those neons look awesome in that large group, but yeah.... I think that's maybe at most like a hundred or so. I really want to breed my Cardinals now! LOL I was thinking about it and I'm gonna have to shut down my garage QT tanks for out trip to Hawaii in September for two weeks. So hopefully my Cardinals will be mature then! 

Tanks looking good! 

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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Wow...that's a big group of tetra's you've got there. I think it needs another 500 or so to really fill in.  Here's an idea for you; try separating out your Hygro. It's looking a bit crowded. That particular plant likes a bit of space. That should help get a bit more flow around the plants and help with BBA. 

By the way, I'm completely convinced that BBA is a result of POC and DOC. I've got it growing on my old and decaying wood and on old, dying leaves. Keeping things clean; especially my filter, really does a number on it. With all the fish you've got now, could it be possible your filters are past capacity? 

Cheers,
Phil


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

Phil Edwards said:


> Wow...that's a big group of tetra's you've got there. I think it needs another 500 or so to really fill in.  Here's an idea for you; try separating out your Hygro. It's looking a bit crowded. That particular plant likes a bit of space. That should help get a bit more flow around the plants and help with BBA.
> 
> By the way, I'm completely convinced that BBA is a result of POC and DOC. I've got it growing on my old and decaying wood and on old, dying leaves. Keeping things clean; especially my filter, really does a number on it. With all the fish you've got now, could it be possible your filters are past capacity?
> 
> ...


POC? DOC? 

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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

dmastin said:


> Great pics Dude I've been wanting to see your neons in all their glory.
> BTW, you're wonderful advice regarding hospital/quarantine tanks which I took quite seriously absolutely backfired as you predicted it would.
> Now I have four main tanks.
> Seriously though, after I realized even hospital and quarantine tanks really should be cycled why not add a piece of slim wood and dragon stone, I've always wanted to try dragon stone etc.
> ...


Lol! It's hard to keep perfectly good tanks empty! As for the Neons there are so many fish that they are all over the place unless I'm feeding and then it's this huge mass the size of a softball, but it doesn't look like 200 to me.. which is my concern. No bodies, no illness, nothing other than the synodontis and his engorged stomach. Really makes me mad. He didn't eat the ones that died.. he ate healthy ones that acclimated... for each one he ate i bought like 3 to get that 1 healthy fish. That's why it's important to have a plan from the start and not stray from it as I did... or I should have rehomed him with all the African cichlids.

Bump:


Phil Edwards said:


> Wow...that's a big group of tetra's you've got there. I think it needs another 500 or so to really fill in.  Here's an idea for you; try separating out your Hygro. It's looking a bit crowded. That particular plant likes a bit of space. That should help get a bit more flow around the plants and help with BBA.
> 
> By the way, I'm completely convinced that BBA is a result of POC and DOC. I've got it growing on my old and decaying wood and on old, dying leaves. Keeping things clean; especially my filter, really does a number on it. With all the fish you've got now, could it be possible your filters are past capacity?
> 
> ...


It's possible. I've got an AC110, an AC70, and an XP3. I clean one AC every 2 weeks and the canister every 6 weeks. I did a massive clean out of all my tanks last week. Gravel vaca, trim dead or poor looking leaves, everything on the substrate, and even dipped and scraped ever piece of wood I could remove.
In the middle of this I'd like to get my 265 up and running and once I understand the sump stuff better perhaps I'll run a sump on this tank.
Guess I'll see if the LFS has anymore good looking Neons when I go to get some Bloodfins and Rummynose today.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

chayos00 said:


> Those neons look awesome in that large group, but yeah.... I think that's maybe at most like a hundred or so. I really want to breed my Cardinals now! LOL I was thinking about it and I'm gonna have to shut down my garage QT tanks for out trip to Hawaii in September for two weeks. So hopefully my Cardinals will be mature then!
> 
> Tanks looking good!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


It's so hard to count. A group of 20 can hide in a 4" by 4" spot. They break off into little groups all the time. I was only able to find 1 green Neon yesterday. I had 10 healthy ones... so I need to accept that do to my own ineptitude I probably kept him very well fed on very healthy Neons. 
I went to Neons after my initial struggles with cardinals, but having them both in the same tank you can tell the Cardinals from a good distance. Much larger, more robust, and striking. For me, finding healthy cardinals is much more difficult than finding healthy Neons.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

The Dude1 said:


> It's possible. I've got an AC110, an AC70, and an XP3. I clean one AC every 2 weeks and the canister every 6 weeks. I did a massive clean out of all my tanks last week. Gravel vaca, trim dead or poor looking leaves, everything on the substrate, and even dipped and scraped ever piece of wood I could remove.
> In the middle of this I'd like to get my 265 up and running and once I understand the sump stuff better perhaps I'll run a sump on this tank.
> Guess I'll see if the LFS has anymore good looking Neons when I go to get some Bloodfins and Rummynose today.


I'll be happy to answer questions about sumps. I've run them for years. How about trading in the Synodontis for credit toward more tetras? 

Bump:


chayos00 said:


> POC? DOC?


Particulate Organic Carbon (food, feces, and other organic debris) and Dissolved Organic Carbon/Compounds (carbohydrates, plant exudates, compounds released from particulate breakdown, etc). Algae are much better adapted to using DOC than are higher plants, which is why we start seeing them when filters get dirty and we don't remove debris/vacuum the substrate. It's also why we see algae growing on old and/or damaged leaves. Their integrity is compromised and they leak things like carbohydrates that algae love.

Cheers,
Phil


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

Phil Edwards said:


> I'll be happy to answer questions about sumps. I've run them for years. How about trading in the Synodontis for credit toward more tetras?
> 
> Bump:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the explanation! 

I can also answer what I understand about sumps from my use of one in the past year. 

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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Phil Edwards said:


> I'll be happy to answer questions about sumps. I've run them for years. How about trading in the Synodontis for credit toward more tetras?
> 
> Bump:
> 
> ...


I actually kind of hinted to that today. Their response was understandable. Very few people want a big predatory catfish. Additionally it would take up a good portion of tank space on the floor of the store. I'm sure they would have had a different tune about the lucipinnis. They were selling small ones for $22 a piece. "Medium" size was $35. I'm not willing to part with them though. Even after more than 2 years they aren't big enough to eat a RCS I don't think. 
I'm really bummed as I look into the tank. Now I'm noticing... had 12 Green Fire tetras... all gone. 10 Green Neons... only 2 left... I can only imagine how many Neons... 
That wouldn't be the end of the world, but Ive also been hit for about 7K between scholarship money and a remarkably fortuitous loss of my homestead exemption application by the County Tax Collector which resulted in a 2K INCREASE in my property tax's. Funny how that works. 
Nothing more on the 265 this year and no new car.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> I actually kind of hinted to that today. Their response was understandable. Very few people want a big predatory catfish. Additionally it would take up a good portion of tank space on the floor of the store. I'm sure they would have had a different tune about the lucipinnis. They were selling small ones for $22 a piece. "Medium" size was $35. I'm not willing to part with them though. Even after more than 2 years they aren't big enough to eat a RCS I don't think.
> I'm really bummed as I look into the tank. Now I'm noticing... had 12 Green Fire tetras... all gone. 10 Green Neons... only 2 left... I can only imagine how many Neons...
> That wouldn't be the end of the world, but Ive also been hit for about 7K between scholarship money and a remarkably fortuitous loss of my homestead exemption application by the County Tax Collector which resulted in a 2K INCREASE in my property tax's. Funny how that works.
> Nothing more on the 265 this year and no new car.


Do you have a tank with bigger fish that would be safer? The cost of fish is exactly why I'm trying to breed fish vs buying more. I'm gonna keep my buy limit to 12 fish and then breed them the fill the tank with them. 

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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

chayos00 said:


> Do you have a tank with bigger fish that would be safer? The cost of fish is exactly why I'm trying to breed fish vs buying more. I'm gonna keep my buy limit to 12 fish and then breed them the fill the tank with them.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Ya I put him in with my Rainbows, Emporer Tetras, Flameback Bleeding Heart tetras, and Corys in one of my 75 gallons. I may look for a new home for him. I'd eventually like to try breeding the Emporer Tetras and he would definately eat young juveniles. Tuesday is my last exam and then I've got like 10 days until summer classes so ill try to get at least a 20 gallon set up somewhere so I can have a legit breeding tank.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> Ya I put him in with my Rainbows, Emporer Tetras, Flameback Bleeding Heart tetras, and Corys in one of my 75 gallons. I may look for a new home for him. I'd eventually like to try breeding the Emporer Tetras and he would definately eat young juveniles. Tuesday is my last exam and then I've got like 10 days until summer classes so ill try to get at least a 20 gallon set up somewhere so I can have a legit breeding tank.


How ya like those bleeding heart tetras? They are some I wondered about too. 

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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

chayos00 said:


> How ya like those bleeding heart tetras? They are some I wondered about too.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Mine are the Flameback ones. They are awesome. I wish someone would be able to get them in locally so I could get more. They are gorgeous. I'll snap a pic when my lights come on today.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

While you're doing that, would you please write down a list of the fish you've got in there? Common trade name is fine. 

Thanks,
Phil


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Phil Edwards said:


> While you're doing that, would you please write down a list of the fish you've got in there? Common trade name is fine.
> 
> Thanks
> Phil


I've got 3 high tech tanks. 2 75 gallons and the 150.

150 has
12 synodontis lucipinnis 
Neons 
Pristilla tetras 
Black phantom tetra 
Sparkling gourami's 
Glowlight tetras 
Lemon Tetras
2 Albino BN pleco's 

75 gallon Rainbow tank 
2 Bosemani Rainbow 
4 Kamaka rainbows 
2 Millenium Rainbows 
2 Maculloch's rainbows 
2 Yellow Rainbows
2 Red Laser rainbows
2 Goyder River Rainbows 
10 Emperor Tetras 
12 Flameback Bleeding Heart tetras 

















12 Panda Corys 
1 Syno Euruptus 

75 gallon
3 Nigerian Red Kribensis 
3 Thomasi
10 Celebes Rainbows 
10 Rummynose tetras 
30 Bloodfin tetras


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> I've got 3 high tech tanks. 2 75 gallons and the 150.
> 
> 150 has
> 12 synodontis lucipinnis
> ...



Yeah I like those flamebacks, they look good. If you have 12 of those catfish in with your neon's, no wonder they are missing. Googling them says they are "heavy feeders" so they are probably loving the "live foods" that you keep providing!


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

chayos00 said:


> Yeah I like those flamebacks, they look good. If you have 12 of those catfish in with your neon's, no wonder they are missing. Googling them says they are "heavy feeders" so they are probably loving the "live foods" that you keep providing!


I've had the lucipinnis for more than 2 years. They are still under 3" and can't eat a normal sized cichlid pellet. There alot of... conflicting... information on the tanganyikan syno's. At feeding time these guys actually get bullied by the Neons who are intensely aggressive in this size group. In all honesty at this point I doubt that the lucipinnis will EVER get large enough to eat even the smallest Neon. They don't like to come out when both fixtures are on. When the first cuts off I'll see if I can drop more food in there and get you a direct comparison between one of them and some average size Neons. I'm a bit strapped at the moment, but maybe by August I'll be back on my feet and I can start finishing out stocking. I don't know how many I have obviously, but I think that another 50 Neons, 12-15 Cardinals (they seem to be getting snobby and like to stick to their little group) would look good and I'll rehome or drop off at least the Pristilla tetras at the LFS. Another great thing about the tank being so stocked is that the fish don't hide... they may dart off, but they come right out along with the massive group. This is the only time I have ever not had to tear a tank apart to catch fish... it's so weird. I'm really thinking about moving the Lemon Tetras in with the Rainbows and moving the Flameback Bleeding Heart tetras into this tank with the Neons and Cardinals, Glowlights and maybe something a little more special like green fire tetras or Black Emporer Tetras. 
Did you guys see my basically spontaneous Carbon Rili shrimp outbreak?? Going to let the colony grow a bit and then seed the tanks with them and more Amano shrimp.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Ugh... so the bolbitus in THIS tank is now covered in BBA. I don't get it. It's right under the output for the C02 and has a powerhead 5 inches from it. Mixed up another 1:3 glut dip and dipped them. Hopefully I have the same results as I've had with other plants. Otherwise I'll have to trim all the fronds again and put it in with the rest of my bolbitus rhizomes and start from 0. 
The rhizomes that I put in the 75 with T5HO are doing awesome and growing well... they just grow slow. Seems that's the only tank that they like?? Only difference is LED vs T5HO...


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

This shows the syno lucipinnis in relation to a black phantom. They're a long way from being able to eat anything but small fry.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

Yeah if he's not doing it, where are they going?!


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

chayos00 said:


> Yeah if he's not doing it, where are they going?!


Sorry I must not have specified. I HAD a syno Euruptus in there. He was definately eating them. I didn't think his mouth was quite large enough, but his belly was always engorged. He was eating them at night when lights were out. He's been relocated to the Rainbow tank. No more tetras for him. I should have rehomed him when I rehomed all the Peacocks and Haps.
Those little guys are syno lucipinnis. I don't think they get more than 3". 

I wish I could get a decent pic of all of them in one area. I think there is room for at least 50 more.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> Sorry I must not have specified. I HAD a syno Euruptus in there. He was definately eating them. I didn't think his mouth was quite large enough, but his belly was always engorged. He was eating them at night when lights were out. He's been relocated to the Rainbow tank. No more tetras for him. I should have rehomed him when I rehomed all the Peacocks and Haps.
> Those little guys are syno lucipinnis. I don't think they get more than 3".
> 
> I wish I could get a decent pic of all of them in one area. I think there is room for at least 50 more.


Okay, I thought I saw you removed the you thought was eating them. But sometimes threads mix together in my mind and I loose track of what's what. LOL

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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Hopefully this was the last big trim on the anubias to get ahead of all of the BBA. Last time I just trimmed the leaves that had a notable amount of BBA. Today I removed leaves with any amount of BBA even if it was just on the edges. I've been dosing 15ml of glut daily and I've cut the photo period to 7 hours. I'm also injecting C02 2 hours before lights on. Also added some crypt Balansae along the back between the tall driftwood on the left and the big hygro compacta bush. I couldn't believe the root system on these plants given the relatively few leaves. Like Amazon sword root system... I'm also considering adding some e xingu in the foreground in that area right behind the little driftwood with Buce on it. Plants are really looking good. Got ahead of the Ca deficiencies and keeping filters extra clean. Been cleaning each filter every 3 weeks as I try to eradicate the BBA and get ahead of the organicz. Some of the Buce clusters are washed out (in the pics), but they are doing fantastic. I did lose some leaves on the cluster on the far left on the root. All of the Buce clumps are now BBA free. Also all of the BBA on the bolbitus is bright red. So far the fronds appear to be healthy. If something changes I've got a ton of rhizomes recovering from total removal of fronds doing well in the lower 75.

Bump:


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

AAAAHHHHH!!! I feel like throwing a brick through this tank!! I introduced all the remaining Neons from AT last week. About 75... all looked great. 2 days later a lemon tetra is dead. Next day 2 Lemon Tetras are dead and I see one with discoloration on its dorsal area... looks like fungus or bacteria. I also see that 2 of my gorgeous mature huge cardinals have a couple of ich spores on them... closer look and I see a couple spots on other neons. Do a full dose of Paragaurd . Next day the infected Lemon is dead and 1 Neon. Another full dose of Paragaurd. That night the massive gorgeous cardinal is doing the blown around in the current thing. So I euthanize him. Also find ANOTHER Lemon with the patch. Catch him and euthanize him. This morning ANOTHER dead Lemon tetra... what??! Why are only my healthy established fish dying?! Today I did a water change and turned up the temp to 81* I will dose again tonight (wait a full 24 hours) and then again 24 hours later. Then another water change. I don't know that I've ever lost a fish to ich. Foolishly I thought my husbandry and tank were so pristine that my fish had impenetrable immune systems. Down to probably 15 Lemons now.... why couldn't it be the Pristilla tetras?! Not a spot or patch on a single one of them... not a spot or anything on a single Black Phantom.. 
I have been researching Peacock Gudgeons and I would like to add a group, but I can't do that now. 
Then I start worrying... my plants have NEVER looked so good or grown so well. Now I have to raise temps and dump chemicals in. My bucephelandra are putting up 4-5 leaves a week!! The anubias are recovering and throwing up new leaves like their life depends on it. Even the c balansae thar i transferred from my 75 and planted behind the large bush has not melted at all and has probably added 7 new leages and as much as 3" to preexisting leaves!! 
I'm also worried for my Nerites (I've got at least 15 in here) and my newly added and doing fantastic Amano shrimp (7 of them). It's like I can't catch a break and reach my stocking goals before SOMETHING comes and knocks me back down. I'm very frustrated. I have had poor luck with lemon tetras for too long so they will not be replaced. I'm not sure I even want to introduce their weak immune systems into another tank. I will have to add Cardinals. They may look similar to Neons, but they are the true jewels in the tank. The good news is that I think 5 would be ok in the 2.6 for 2 weeks while I observe them. I don't want to risk my growing carbon Rili population. I am so frustrated. I was riding this high for the last week at the tremendous growth I have seen with the Bucephelandra. At this rate I will have enough to cover nearly every exposed area and much of the substrate with buce and hardscape in 6 months.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> AAAAHHHHH!!! I feel like throwing a brick through this tank!! I introduced all the remaining Neons from AT last week. About 75... all looked great. 2 days later a lemon tetra is dead. Next day 2 Lemon Tetras are dead and I see one with discoloration on its dorsal area... looks like fungus or bacteria. I also see that 2 of my gorgeous mature huge cardinals have a couple of ich spores on them... closer look and I see a couple spots on other neons. Do a full dose of Paragaurd . Next day the infected Lemon is dead and 1 Neon. Another full dose of Paragaurd. That night the massive gorgeous cardinal is doing the blown around in the current thing. So I euthanize him. Also find ANOTHER Lemon with the patch. Catch him and euthanize him. This morning ANOTHER dead Lemon tetra... what??! Why are only my healthy established fish dying?! Today I did a water change and turned up the temp to 81* I will dose again tonight (wait a full 24 hours) and then again 24 hours later. Then another water change. I don't know that I've ever lost a fish to ich. Foolishly I thought my husbandry and tank were so pristine that my fish had impenetrable immune systems. Down to probably 15 Lemons now.... why couldn't it be the Pristilla tetras?! Not a spot or patch on a single one of them... not a spot or anything on a single Black Phantom..
> I have been researching Peacock Gudgeons and I would like to add a group, but I can't do that now.
> Then I start worrying... my plants have NEVER looked so good or grown so well. Now I have to raise temps and dump chemicals in. My bucephelandra are putting up 4-5 leaves a week!! The anubias are recovering and throwing up new leaves like their life depends on it. Even the c balansae thar i transferred from my 75 and planted behind the large bush has not melted at all and has probably added 7 new leages and as much as 3" to preexisting leaves!!
> I'm also worried for my Nerites (I've got at least 15 in here) and my newly added and doing fantastic Amano shrimp (7 of them). It's like I can't catch a break and reach my stocking goals before SOMETHING comes and knocks me back down. I'm very frustrated. I have had poor luck with lemon tetras for too long so they will not be replaced. I'm not sure I even want to introduce their weak immune systems into another tank. I will have to add Cardinals. They may look similar to Neons, but they are the true jewels in the tank. The good news is that I think 5 would be ok in the 2.6 for 2 weeks while I observe them. I don't want to risk my growing carbon Rili population. I am so frustrated. I was riding this high for the last week at the tremendous growth I have seen with the Bucephelandra. At this rate I will have enough to cover nearly every exposed area and much of the substrate with buce and hardscape in 6 months.


Oh man! Ich is no joke for sure. I've always upped my temps to 86°F for two weeks and daily paraguard dosing during that same time, starting with 1/3 dose on day 1, 1/2 dose on day 2, 2/3 day 3, and full after that. Seachem probably loves me as I buy half gallons of the stuff at a time.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

chayos00 said:


> Oh man! IHC is no joke for sure. I've always upped my temps to 86°F for two weeks and daily paraguard dosing during that same time, starting with 1/3 dose on day 1, 1/2 dose on day 2, 2/3 day 3, and full after that. Seachem probably loves me as I buy half gallons of the stuff at a time.


I am scared to death to up the temps... do you do it all at once or over several days? Also how often are you doing water changes while dosing Paragaurd? Did it kill invertebrates? So a full 14 days no matter what? How did you plants tolerate the temps? This has me sick to my stomach. I've worked on this tank and spent so much money and it's SO CLOSE to wht I wanted. Even my bucephelandra are growing like crazy now... no BBA... it's such a monumental achievement for me and the though of having to replace stock or lose plants is really worrying me. I lost ANOTHER Lemon tetra since making my last post. I don't know what's up with them. 
I'd really appreciate any type of info you can share about treating this with minimal losses.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> I am scared to death to up the temps... do you do it all at once or over several days? Also how often are you doing water changes while dosing Paragaurd? Did it kill invertebrates? So a full 14 days no matter what? How did you plants tolerate the temps? This has me sick to my stomach. I've worked on this tank and spent so much money and it's SO CLOSE to wht I wanted. Even my bucephelandra are growing like crazy now... no BBA... it's such a monumental achievement for me and the though of having to replace stock or lose plants is really worrying me. I lost ANOTHER Lemon tetra since making my last post. I don't know what's up with them.
> I'd really appreciate any type of info you can share about treating this with minimal losses.


I up the temp the same as how I increase the dose of Paraguard. A few degrees a day. So I do 77 normally, so I'll take it up like 3 degrees a day till 86. That way it's not a shock to the fish too. The plants I have didn't get phased by the temps. But some of the fish seemed to "whiten" their color, but lived through it and returned to normal after cool down. I've got amano's and some Malaysian trumpet snails in my tank, no more inverts. than that. 

Ich sucks, I hope you can kick it's arse, just remember, gotta treat the whole tank and not just the sick fish. So I don't separate any fish after they get sick or to prevent them from getting it.


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> AAAAHHHHH!!! I feel like throwing a brick through this tank!!....


One request - if you do happen to throw a brick through your tank, record it and share :grin2: Lol

All kidding aside though, sorry for the losses man. Went through mysterious deaths here a few months ago, lost a ton of fish and never did figure out what was killing them . Ended up throwing everything and the kitchen sink into the tank - MetroPlex, KanaPlex, General Cure(redundant with the metronidazole, but didn't have just straight prazi), so on and so forth. Everyone seems alright now thankfully, but it's a bummer when you lose fish you can't easily reacquire. Biggest loses for me were Cory habrosus and no one around here has them so...mail order it is.


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## Aframomum (May 23, 2015)

Sorry to hear about this setback - you were just getting ahead with the BBA. I wish you luck and don't get discouraged - also, leave the bricks outside! 

BTW, I don't know how you do 3 large tanks and school - I barely was able to keep up with a single 20 gallon reef while doing classes!


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## lisals (Jun 21, 2017)

UGH that sucks! I'm sorry you're losing fish. Hopefully you won't lose anymore though.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Some of my buces. They are putting out leaves faster than the anubias at this point and not the slightest hint of BBA. I'd still like to get a few more types. Eventually I'd like to have groups in each tank, but I think the Emporer tetras in one of the 75 gallons may be nibbling on new leaves.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Lights on and ...... 6 dead fish... 2 Lemon Tetras and 4 Neons. I spent hours watching yesterday and everyone looked fantastic and gorged themselves on live and frozen food... I've noticed only a couple of ich spots on 2 of the cardinals. I'm not going to change anything. Temps should be about 83 and that's where I will keep them. I'm dosing a full 60ml of Paragaurd every 24 hours. Have not lost a single Black phantom tetra, Pristilla tetra, or Glowlight tetra... I will not replace the Lemons. 
I'm going to move as many of the carbon Rili as I can find in the 11.4 today and move them to the 2.6. This weekend I'll pick up 10 Cardinals and 30 Neons from the more expensive LFS as their tetras seem to be much healthier. 
This sucks... but I'm not going to risk my plants and other fish trying to save weak or poorly bred fish. I've not seen more than 4 or 5 spots at worst on any fish... what is killing them?? Nothing has changed in the 5 or more months that I've had these lemon tetras... when I see a "questionable" fish I immediately remove them... how are 6 fish going from perfectly healthy to completely dead in 15 hours??! I'm out of ideas. I'd really like any hypothesis you guys can come up with.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> Lights on and ...... 6 dead fish... 2 Lemon Tetras and 4 Neons. I spent hours watching yesterday and everyone looked fantastic and gorged themselves on live and frozen food... I've noticed only a couple of ich spots on 2 of the cardinals. I'm not going to change anything. Temps should be about 83 and that's where I will keep them. I'm dosing a full 60ml of Paragaurd every 24 hours. Have not lost a single Black phantom tetra, Pristilla tetra, or Glowlight tetra... I will not replace the Lemons.
> I'm going to move as many of the carbon Rili as I can find in the 11.4 today and move them to the 2.6. This weekend I'll pick up 10 Cardinals and 30 Neons from the more expensive LFS as their tetras seem to be much healthier.
> This sucks... but I'm not going to risk my plants and other fish trying to save weak or poorly bred fish. I've not seen more than 4 or 5 spots at worst on any fish... what is killing them?? Nothing has changed in the 5 or more months that I've had these lemon tetras... when I see a "questionable" fish I immediately remove them... how are 6 fish going from perfectly healthy to completely dead in 15 hours??! I'm out of ideas. I'd really like any hypothesis you guys can come up with.


Unfortunately from my experience Ich will kill fish that don't always show it. However the temps may need to come up still if the Ich is still reproducing. The point to the higher temps is to not just speed up it's life cycle, but to get the temps to a point where it stops it from being able to reproduce. Just my 2 cents. I've heard of some really PITA strains where getting to about 92°F before it will kill or stop it from breeding. 

Also I know it sucks to probably hear this. But sounds like the tank just needs to sit and not have anything added for a while till it's balance comes back into check.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

chayos00 said:


> Unfortunately from my experience Ich will kill fish that don't always show it. However the temps may need to come up still if the Ich is still reproducing. The point to the higher temps is to not just speed up it's life cycle, but to get the temps to a point where it stops it from being able to reproduce. Just my 2 cents. I've heard of some really PITA strains where getting to about 92°F before it will kill or stop it from breeding.
> 
> Also I know it sucks to probably hear this. But sounds like the tank just needs to sit and not have anything added for a while till it's balance comes back into check.


That's a good point. I'll increase temps some more tonight. Since my last post I lost another Neon... the poor looking cardinal is still doing ok. Everyone gorged on BBS tonight... I also moved most if not all the shrimp into the 2.6. The replacements will spend a full 30 days in QT once I get this settled and am confident that it's over.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Keep up the treatments and temperature and DON'T get any more fish. The parasite's got a month long life cycle. As irritating as it may be, your best bet is to let things go for two months after you find the last dead fish. Without removing all fish for a couple months, you won't get rid of the parasite, but at least you'll have resistant fish. I'm sorry you're losing all the ones you've lost man. That really sucks and I hope you can get past this without too much more loss.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

These pictures are very poor quality and the fish are all swimming in one of the filter outlet areas so there are lots of bubbles. These pictures are of 1 cardinal. He is the only one displaying the "saddle" but columnaris would explain the sudden symptomless deaths up to this point. I have not been able to catch him.








You can see the ich on some of the others.








































Although it's difficult to see in the pics, the spot is more of a fuzzy patch than a "saddle" that is distributed evenly near the dorsal fin. Here in lies my dilemma. If it is columnaris heat will strengthen it. At the same time I KNOW that there is ich... which really necessitates higher temps to ensure the parasite is dead. Lights go on in 2 hours... regardless I'll think I'll be ordering a gallon of Paragaurd. If symptoms continue despite the 4 days (today will be day 5) of Paragaurd then I will have to try to remove plants and inverts and treat with kanamycin. Can I treat with both at the same time?? Kanamycin is antibacterial and Paragaurd is anti parasitic.... or is there a better safer combination for my less hardy inhabitants? 
I'm going to try to remove any last shrimp from the 11.4 today. Then I'm going to see if I can replace it with a 20 long under there strictly for QT until I get the stocking back up. That way I can QT ALL of the new fish in 1 tank at one time and be done introducing diseases and pathogens into this tank.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

No dead fish today. I bought some ich shield from NLS yesterday. Fish were eating it, but it may be too big for some of the Neons and Cardinals and definately Sparkling gourami's and Peacock Gudgeons. I decided to start batches of baby brine shrimp and crush up the pellets into a powder. It worked very well. Ick spots continue to decrease, but they are still not all gone. I was only able to get a 250ml bottle yesterday. I'll order a gallon I guess. 
I also believe I saw a slightly discolored spot on one of the lemon tetras. On his side and definately not consistent with the "saddle" of columnaris. I tried to track him down and euthanize him (I feel that's the best strategy at this point) but he was more than vigorous. He easily darted away into the mass of fish.
I did however get everything together for the 20 long QT in the garage. I will fill it on Wednesday and begin monitoring temps. I may need a heater to keep it at a constant 80*, but circulation in there is good and temps stay rather consistent. We will see. Nothing from the contaminated tank had any involvement with this tank. 
I also moved the shrimp from the 11.4 to the 2.6. There were at least 40 shrimp in there and I didn't get them all!! There are 2 gorgeous bright blue shrimp (blue velvet?) And one was berried. There were also 4 red Rili. I decided to keep them all together as the variety is pretty cool. If I sell any I will be sure to state that there is a chance of red Rili and blue velvet off spring.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> No dead fish today. I bought some ich shield from NLS yesterday. Fish were eating it, but it may be too big for some of the Neons and Cardinals and definately Sparkling gourami's and Peacock Gudgeons. I decided to start batches of baby brine shrimp and crush up the pellets into a powder. It worked very well. Ick spots continue to decrease, but they are still not all gone. I was only able to get a 250ml bottle yesterday. I'll order a gallon I guess.
> I also believe I saw a slightly discolored spot on one of the lemon tetras. On his side and definately not consistent with the "saddle" of columnaris. I tried to track him down and euthanize him (I feel that's the best strategy at this point) but he was more than vigorous. He easily darted away into the mass of fish.
> I did however get everything together for the 20 long QT in the garage. I will fill it on Wednesday and begin monitoring temps. I may need a heater to keep it at a constant 80*, but circulation in there is good and temps stay rather consistent. We will see. Nothing from the contaminated tank had any involvement with this tank.
> I also moved the shrimp from the 11.4 to the 2.6. There were at least 40 shrimp in there and I didn't get them all!! There are 2 gorgeous bright blue shrimp (blue velvet?) And one was berried. There were also 4 red Rili. I decided to keep them all together as the variety is pretty cool. If I sell any I will be sure to state that there is a chance of red Rili and blue velvet off spring.


That's a start! You know things are getting right when you stop losing fish! Hope you can keep that up! 

Never had columnaris, gonna have to google that now.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

chayos00 said:


> That's a start! You know things are getting right when you stop losing fish! Hope you can keep that up!
> 
> Never had columnaris, gonna have to google that now.


No dead fish today and there is a marked decrease in ick spores in addition to the number of fish exhibiting them. I'm pretty confident that I had a combo... ick and either NTD or columnaris. I've been keeping a close eye in fish. Anyone exhibiting symptoms and is able to be caught will be euthanized. That will be in effect for a few more days. I'm going to continue Paragaurd and ich shield for 10 more days.... after that?? I don't know. I have only 10 or less lemon tetras. I really like the Peacock Gudgeons and their interactions with the Sparkling gourami's. 
Either way I'll have to cycle the 20 long first. I'm kind of disinterested in adding fish... to any of the tanks now... 
I also found all 5 of the clown killies today eagerly eating the live BBS. I wouldn't mind seeing if I can just keep them healthy and seeing if I could get some fry.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

I would love to see your gourami. That is another fish I want to keep some day!


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

mbkemp said:


> I would love to see your gourami. That is another fish I want to keep some day!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll try to get some pics today. They are super bold interactive little guys. I swear sometimes I can see them thinking... "should I dive into that school of tetras to grab that food". They look around and then dart in, grab it, and dart away.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

4 or 5 dead Neons this morning and 2 additional culls. This log will now serve to document what I believe to be Neon Tetra disease Pleistophora hyphessobryconi. I have made 2 cultures from 2 of the least decayed fish. One of which was living and displayed coloration variances that would likely also be associated with columnaris. I will allow the pathogen to culture over the weekend and will do a gram stain for 1 (if gram negative then we will know it's columnaris) and an acid fast stain on the other (if it is positive then we know it is Neon Tetra disease. It is what it is so hopefully this can be used by others in the future. I didn't think to get more pics, but there will undoubtedly be more fatalities to come. I will continue with Paragaurd and ich shield for the fish as I am not willing to kill a tank full of fish.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> 4 or 5 dead Neons this morning and 2 additional culls. This log will now serve to document what I believe to be Neon Tetra disease Pleistophora hyphessobryconi. I have made 2 cultures from 2 of the least decayed fish. One of which was living and displayed coloration variances that would likely also be associated with columnaris. I will allow the pathogen to culture over the weekend and will do a gram stain for 1 (if gram negative then we will know it's columnaris) and an acid fast stain on the other (if it is positive then we know it is Neon Tetra disease. It is what it is so hopefully this can be used by others in the future. I didn't think to get more pics, but there will undoubtedly be more fatalities to come. I will continue with Paragaurd and ich shield for the fish as I am not willing to kill a tank full of fish.


Awww damn! That totally sucks! But what you are going to do is right up my alley where I work. Dealing with tissue staining, I work for a large cancer diagnostics company for IHC/ISH, SS, and H&E instruments, not going to name drop on here though. If you want to know direct message me.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

chayos00 said:


> Awww damn! That totally sucks! But what you are going to do is right up my alley where I work. Dealing with tissue staining, I work for a large cancer diagnostics company for IHC/ISH, SS, and H&E instruments, not going to name drop on here though. If you want to know direct message me.


That's awesome! Im not too familiar with the different companies involved in that segment of the industry. I am still getting any and all prereq's for PA school and the PhD program before I start PA school in the Fall. The PhD program is in Cellular and Molecular Biology and focuses on Cancer research. It is a part of the Moffit Cancer Institute in Tampa. Im assuming you enjoy your work? 
Well... 2 dead lemon tetras this morning. Both looked fantastic with exceptional color and flawless appearance. There were 3 dead neons. One on the intake of each filter. I also found a single Neon with a colorless "patch" on one side that was "fluffy". It was not consistent with the colorless non raised patches on the other fish, but he had ostracized himself from the group so he was euthanized. 
I don't get it. I watched the tank for HOURS yesterday. Every fish looked perfect. Everyone was eating aggressively... and 12 hours later 5 dead fish. 
I also noted that the tank temp did not drop back down when I turned down the temps realizing that I was dealing with more than just ich. I don't know if the heater is shot or what. Ive got it set on 75* now and it is cycling on and off at 81.5*. Once money becomes available (which is not looking good, as I just learned today that my roof leaks) I will look into one of the larger Fluval heaters and an inkbird controller. 
I got water and everything into the 20 long in the garage. Unfortunately I don't have a thermometer to monitor temps, no light, and no heater. I think its warm enough to at least cycle so Ill start with that. 
Im thinking one of two things now.
1. Do nothing and see who survives and when the dying stops. Problem there is I am not going to add the survivors to the new inhabitants nor will I add them to other tanks. Perhaps I will give them away with the caveat that they were in a tank ravaged by disease?? 
2. Break down the tank and euthanize everyone. I will then be tankless and put all my effort into getting the 265 up and running and let this tank bleach and soak uninhabited for several months.
Im thinking I would like to try Electric Blue Rams and Discus next, but I would like to buy adult discus as Im not willing to do the necessary work to raise them appropriately... I don't even know if that's an option. Anyone know if adult discus can be maintained in a nice high tech C02 injected tank with just weekly water changes??


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Are your temps just too hot for the Neons?

I had a heater malfunction last week, I walked past the 10g tank with the Neons and many were floating and swimming in circles. Turns out the heater was stuck on and the temp was 98*.

i did a 20 minute transfusion from another tank to bring the water down to 84.

Surprisingly, only four fish died. My Neon pop was stable at 25 for the past six months, now it is at 21 and they seem back to normal. I would say they are pretty tough little fish. 

I didn't buy a new heater for this tank and its stabilized around 72-73*. The Neons seem fine with this.

My understanding is that 78* is good for Cardinals, too hot for Neons. Maybe neons prefer 72-75?

Cascading water will definietely cool it off. Keep the water level an inch lower and have a hob dump water back into the tank, should bring the temp down a few degrees.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I guess it's possible... temps are at 81* now while treating ich... but it's ONLY the Neons and I wouldn't think that a few degrees would kill them off like this...
2 more PERFECT looking Neons dead this evening... there is nothing to even examine... bellies full of baby brine and medicated food...

























That doesn't explain the lemon tetras dying 2 at a time... I'm kind of stumped. Hopefully Tuesday presents some answers. Would 80* temps... up to 82* kill Neons??


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

It would keep them in a stressed state so that they start dying off.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

No deaths in 5 or more days.. could be 7.
Got sick of waiting for these Moliwe to spawn again so they and the Thomasi were moved to their permenant home in here.
























































I should still have 200+ Neons. I lost 30-35 Neons total. 5 cardinals and 10 or 12 Lemon Tetras. If I ever add any more tetras it will be a group of 30-40 wild green Neons. I'm done introducing fish... even in that QT tank. Temps are normally 83* but I've seen them as high as 89* so I need to figure out a way to cool it as summer approaches.... or figure a spot for it in the house which may incur the bosses wrath... don't think I'm willing to do that.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> No deaths in 5 or more days.. could be 7.
> Got sick of waiting for these Moliwe to spawn again so they and the Thomasi were moved to their permenant home in here.
> 
> 
> ...


You can always use a fan blowing over the top of the water to use evaporative cooling to bring the temps down, but of course evaporation rates will go up. I would do that in my garage here last summer. But I just added two large styrofoam sheets at 1.5" thick in front of my garage door that's already insulated (as are all the walls), but the metal part gets hot from the direct sun it gets in the first half of the day. So far seems like temps have gotten a bit cooler. My long term goal is to get an AC unit into the garage to keep it cooled for when I work out in the garage.

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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I found a nice 5" 130cfm fan that comes complete with plug that has some great reviews. It should cool enough to keep temps from getting over 85*. Going to run another 2 fans in the windows to blow out the hot air and get some circulation. Figure one of the dual controller Inkbirds can run a 50w heater to keep it from dropping below 81* at night and then turn the fans on when it hits 85* during the day. Im going to run a sponge filter to help keep the water oxygenated and turning over. Should also give the fry something to graze on. Not bad. The real test will be if this Moliwe ever gives me some more fry and Ive got to get it to 78* and keep it there. Might run a line from the chest freezer drain port to the tank that sits right next to it. Then have the fan blow that freezing air over the tank. I think Ive got this figured out... now I just need some money


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Went to my first club meeting last night. It's a relatively new club that a cool guy that works at the LFS is doing. Met some really nice people. My wife went with me and she was amazed at how "normal" and pleasant everyone was. 
It didn't occur to me to bring some plants... but I'm still growing stuff out and getting my emersed bins going. Next meeting is in 2 months and I'm hoping to be able to bring some plants and maybe some shrimp. 
Coolest part.... I brought some lobelia cardinalis in for the guy that runs the meetings a few weeks earlier. Somehow they got planted in one of the display tanks so the owner asked me to point them out so he could give them to Jeff (guy who does the meetings). Well I noticed what looked like to crinum calastratum plants in his display tank. I've wanted one of those for a while, but they are expensive and I've heard of many people having difficulty growing them... anyway the Owner said "pick out the nicest one, it's my gift to you" YAY!!! Maybe I was a little too excited, but that really made my week! 
















It is directly under the DA fixture (Beamswork) which is the brightest of the 2 (the other is an FSPEC). It likely doesn't get alot of light from the FSPEC due to the hygro compacta and crypt ponterifollia several inches in front of it, but I trimmed the crypts to make sure none of its leaves were blocking the crinum. 
I can't imagine that not being enough light... thoughts? I know it will be slow to get established so I won't mess with it.


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## lisals (Jun 21, 2017)

That's awesome  I would've been super happy and excited about that too!
I have no clue about that plant. I just remember someone on youtube that I watch has a huge one in one of their tanks... maybe the aquarium co-op guy? /shrugs
Anywho! That was really cool of that guy to give it to you. Hope it settles in well and grows nice and huge for you


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

lisals said:


> I have no clue about that plant. I just remember someone on youtube that I watch has a huge one in one of their tanks... maybe the aquarium co-op guy? /shrugs


Think if it's the same plant that would be Dustin's Fish tanks. 

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## Mike! (Mar 26, 2018)

Everywhere I've seen crinum described it's supposed to be "easy", low everything (for example Tropica). I've been eyeing it for a while as a potential replacement for vals.

There really is nothing better than unexpected generosity, especially in a new situation where you might not know how well you might fit in.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

If it weren't for the beautiful plants that have taken so long to acclimate I would dump a couple gallons of bleach in this tank and walk away. 3 dead Neons today and thats not the worst part... the nondominant male Moliwe was dead... suprisingly dead.. and tore up... 
So I have not lost any sparkling Gourami, Peacock Gudgeons, syno lucipinnis, Glowlight tetras, black phantom tetras, shrimp... and all 3 of the Thomasi are doing great. 
The only thing giving me pause is that the female was VERY gravid and she and her mate were going after the other male pretty hardcore... I didn't think anything of if as it's a 150 gallon tank and these guys are barely 3"... Additionally the female is now positioned in a cave area made of driftwood and roots... which surprised me as I put 3 cichlid caves in there and apparently they don't like any of them? The male was hanging closely to her, but when he saw me he was ready for food. She did not come out. I can't tell if she is breathing heavy, but it is faster than the male. Last point is the tetras are suddenly congregating all around that cave area... and very near the absolute bottom of the tank.. which is weird as they are normally hanging out in the middle.
Neons... whatever... done with them. I'm done with all of it for a while, but I can't make a decision about what I'm going to do until I figure out if then female is sick or laying and guarding eggs.

If she doesn't make it then everyone is gone I think and I'm going to bleach the tank and start over aiming for Discus and Rams. My hesitation is I'm not sure how well my plants like my Buce and anubias will fare. I'm very attached to them.
OR... deaths stop and / or all the Neons are euthanized. Perhaps I will dedicate the outside 20 gallon to breeding my Glowlights and try to get 200 + of them and I will have to get a couple new pairs of Moliwe.
Anyway... did a big water change and fed some frozen brine shrimp and bloodworms mixed with live BBS with ick shield mixed in.. I plan to run that for about a week after the last mass die off and 25 days of Paragaurd. Made it almost 14 days without a death until today...


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

Man sure does suck that they keep dying on you! Maybe they are just poor specimens? You didn't get them (neons) from the local big box pet stores right? 

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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

chayos00 said:


> Man sure does suck that they keep dying on you! Maybe they are just poor specimens? You didn't get them (neons) from the local big box pet stores right?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


2 more dead. They came indirectly through seacrest (both distributors). Honestly I don't know. I always expected to lose 25-30% in the first 2 weeks of getting them. I keep on adding them (up until 3 weeks ago) and it's a never ending cycle. Had no place to QT the big group I wanted. I don't know man... 90% of them look perfect when I find them. The ick is gone.. and I treated for 25 days with Paragaurd. And it's only them and the Lemons (worth mentioned the the first group of 25 of these I purchased ALL died in 10 days. This last group of Lemons has been in there for a couple months... but it's only the Neons and Lemons. I think they might just be garbage.
I'm very upset about the Moliwe though... he was the odd man out, but now all I have is my pair... and I would be crushed if I lost one of them.
I think massive Glowlight project is in the works. Ive got one of those hard tubs meant to go in the ground for a water feature that I might look into setting up outside... I don't think they're as nice as Neons and Cardinals, but they live... and seem pretty close to bullet proof... none of them got a single ick spot.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

*Please some suggestions?*

Female Moliwe was dead this morning. I KNEW not to move them until I had fry!! I knew it!! I'm just going to leave these fish to their fate. I'm going to continue caring for the plants to the the best of my ability. Hopefully at some point the die offs stop.. or at least 100% contain themselves to the Neons... but even then I would be concerned about adding a new group of Moliwe. 
What I would LIKE to do is euthanize all the Neons and move some glowlights to the 20 long outside to see if I could get some fry. Then pack my tank with them and eventually... 2 months? 3 months? 4 months? Add a group of 6 Moliwe... but whatever it is in the tank they seem to be susceptible to it... they died about 5 days after their introduction so it wasn't an acclimation thing. This tank and the tank they came from have the exact perameters...

I don't want to break the tank down due to how well the plants are doing. Thus far I have had deaths from only 3 of 9 species in the tank. That makes it unlikely to be columnaris. Acid fast stain was negative, tank has been treated with Paragaurd and ick shield for 25 days... no outward symptoms... they just die overnight...


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> Female Moliwe was dead this morning. I KNEW not to move them until I had fry!! I knew it!! I'm just going to leave these fish to their fate. I'm going to continue caring for the plants to the the best of my ability. Hopefully at some point the die offs stop.. or at least 100% contain themselves to the Neons... but even then I would be concerned about adding a new group of Moliwe.
> What I would LIKE to do is euthanize all the Neons and move some glowlights to the 20 long outside to see if I could get some fry. Then pack my tank with them and eventually... 2 months? 3 months? 4 months? Add a group of 6 Moliwe... but whatever it is in the tank they seem to be susceptible to it... they died about 5 days after their introduction so it wasn't an acclimation thing. This tank and the tank they came from have the exact perameters...
> 
> I don't want to break the tank down due to how well the plants are doing. Thus far I have had deaths from only 3 of 9 species in the tank. That makes it unlikely to be columnaris. Acid fast stain was negative, tank has been treated with Paragaurd and ick shield for 25 days... no outward symptoms... they just die overnight...


Sorry to hear about your lady fish! When I was having issues it seemed just leaving the tank for a few months seemed to help out. But I'm sure my issue was my source of fish, as I had ordered a ton from liveaquaria.com. Not a single one of my 70 ordered Cardinals lived more than 2-4weeks, luckily most had died during their two week live guarantee so I got my money back each time. Finally got good stock from another local fish store that obviously had much better quality stock. 

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## lisals (Jun 21, 2017)

UGH, I'm so sorry you're having these continued problems. It's so frustrating, especially when it spreads to fish you really like. And equally sucks when you treat with everything you can think of and whatever it is still spreads. 
Damn shame that neons seem to be so fragile. Such pretty fish, but notorious for being so sickly.

I would definitely leave the tank alone. Hopefully the deaths will eventually stop sooner rather than later and after a couple of months you can add in something else.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I've spent all day thinking about it. I can't kill those fish... I am going to leave the tank alone with the exception of immediately culling any fish with physical symptoms (colorless patch) or swimming funny (at the surface or doing that weird loop thing). Once this 20 long cycles I'm going to place some glowlights in there and see if I can't get some fry. Didn't lose a single one so obviously they're a better choice for the group and I don't need to really introduce anything. I would really like to try Bloodfins also, but they jump and I will need the top off the tank for the fan setup... unless I can make some kind of screen thing... that's an idea... 
Culled 2 more Neons when I got home. 
The crinum looks really good! I swear it's grown since being placed in there.
Also gave most of the buces a diluted glut dip... I've got blooms coming up from 2 of the buces and another from the anubias nana. The plants are really looking nice and there is minimal algae on a couple of the leaves of the slow growers.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

The plan now is simple. I'm going to dig into the Burges manual and learn what I can about the microsporidia that is NTD and columnaris. I'm going to collect better samples. I will then move all of the fish into a 150 gallon tub with sponge filter and treat them. The tank will be allowed to remain vertebrateless for twice the period that either pathogen can survive without a host. Once that is done I will begin the Glowlight breeding project and add 150 Glowlights of my own breeding. No introduction of pathogens. If I get this far then I will begin looking for 2 pairs of Nigerian Red Kribensis. Here goes


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## Aframomum (May 23, 2015)

This has been a rough time for you but I like your plan to remove all the fish from the affected tank. Give them a chance to get treated and give yourself piece of mind that your main tank is getting cleared out on its own.


Were you successful in isolating, culturing and staining the organism(s)? 


At least on the upside you found a nice club and got some free plants!


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

That's funny... I was just looking at some Black Phantoms tonight. I've had them before but none now. Almost bought some myself. One thing about those is that the lighting can make a big difference in how they look in the tank. Too bright/certain temperatures of light can make them look sort of washed out. A little lower lighting/warmer temp with lots of plants really seems to bring out the blacks and reds and they just look beautiful.

I've not had the Blue King's so I don't know how they compare, but on the positive side for the Pristellas is they do tend to school up well. Which a lot of people like. Mine are pretty much always together in a bunch.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Aframomum said:


> This has been a rough time for you but I like your plan to remove all the fish from the affected tank. Give them a chance to get treated and give yourself piece of mind that your main tank is getting cleared out on its own.
> 
> 
> Were you successful in isolating, culturing and staining the organism(s)?
> ...


I should have made replicates and done a better job sterilizing... I only did a gram stain which showed gram negative, so likely columnaris. I took a sample from the same fish showing physical symptoms and did an acid fast stain which would show the microsporidia that is associated with NTD. That doesn't mean that I just didn't take a sample from the correct area.. need to do more tests.... but still.... MOST of the species in the tank were completely unaffected.
Unaffected fish
Black phantom tetra 
Glowlight tetra
Pristilla tetra 
BN Pleco
Synodontis lucippinis 
Peacock Gudgeon
Sparkling Gourami 
Analochromis Thomasi... it's just weird... columnaris is highly virulent. The only affected species were Lemon Tetras, Neon Tetras, and Cardinals.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

So it seems I've had a spot of luck. No deaths over 2 days.. that I've found. Almost as exciting... the crinum is growing like gangbusters!! It's grown nearly 2" on most of the leaves since I planted it! 








Something is going on with the remaining Nigerian Red. He seems to have been displaced. He is no longer top dog... and I swear that he is lonely since the loss of his mate. Unfortunately there will be no additions to this tank in the foreseeable future. 
The Thomasi on the other hand have started to color up


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Get a high quality UV sterilizer. Dont go crazy with fertz. Increase aeration x10. Consider 24/7 CO2 to keep pH constant. Don't overstock. Use a cycled QT for 3+ weeks. 

Things will live.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

ChrisX said:


> Get a high quality UV sterilizer. Dont go crazy with fertz. Increase aeration x10. Consider 24/7 CO2 to keep pH constant. Don't overstock. Use a cycled QT for 3+ weeks.
> 
> Things will live.


I think we discussed UV sterilizers months before this. I just never followed up on it. If I remember correctly the cost for the size I would need would have been about $200?? It would have more than paid for itself by now. That is the next thing I will purchase. Is there one you would suggest? Did we determine wattage I would need?

Looks like 36w Turbo Twist (as high as they go) is about $180 or Pro-Max 55w for $275. I think the 55w is probably the way to go. I'd need to buy a pump since the XP3 is already super slow with the reactor. This will be expensive


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> I think we discussed UV sterilizers months before this. I just never followed up on it. If I remember correctly the cost for the size I would need would have been about $200?? It would have more than paid for itself by now. That is the next thing I will purchase. Is there one you would suggest? Did we determine wattage I would need?
> 
> Looks like 36w Turbo Twist (as high as they go) is about $180 or Pro-Max 55w for $275. I think the 55w is probably the way to go. I'd need to buy a pump since the XP3 is already super slow with the reactor. This will be expensive


I've done some reading about UV sterilizers and sounds as if most don't really do that well for tanks. Seems like you really have to have a very specific flow and wattage to actually kill off things that are in the water like bacteria and those kinds of things. IMO read up on them for sure before pulling the trigger on one.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

chayos00 said:


> I've done some reading about UV sterilizers and sounds as if most don't really do that well for tanks. Seems like you really have to have a very specific flow and wattage to actually kill off things that are in the water like bacteria and those kinds of things. IMO read up on them for sure before pulling the trigger on one.


Seems like saltwater guys swear by them and they invest big money in fish. I believe the difference in opinion may be that the saltwater guys spend hundreds on UV sterilizers and get appropriately rated sterilizers where the freshwater crowd goes for the 8w or 13w Green Machine sterilizers for $35. The worst part is I had a 40w or 55w sterilizer when I bought this tank from a guy that had it set up as a reef tank. At some point I tossed it like the Octopus skimmer and vortex powerheads... just not thinking. As you mentioned though... it's alot of money for an "I hope it works" piece of equipment. Im going to chew on it a while. To think this could have been avoided by following a QT... and in the end I might as well have never added several hundred Neons. Just money thrown away. 
Good news.. so I'm blown away by the growth rate on this crinum... well I noticed today it seems to be putting out a daughter plant!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

This is what I have on my 180 gallon.


Classic 15 Watt | aquaultraviolet.com 


I have very rare, expensive fish in this tank who have never been sick- with anything. This sterilizer is a beast!


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

Discusluv said:


> This is what I have on my 180 gallon.
> 
> 
> Classic 15 Watt | aquaultraviolet.com
> ...


Now this looks like what I was reading about for decent UV filters. Looks like a 25w unit would be good hooked up to my CO2 reactor loop. However I personally would overdue it and base it off the higher SW ratings to ensure it's killing diseases that it can kill in our tanks. 

But man the cost of a decent UV system isn't cheap for sure! 

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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Discusluv said:


> This is what I have on my 180 gallon.
> 
> 
> Classic 15 Watt | aquaultraviolet.com
> ...


I was thinking of using much much higher wattage. The Pro-Max one is 55w. About $275. That's a huge variation in wattage. How many gph are you running through it? Found them. Looks like the 25w one is $310 with wiper. Do you have a filter or water pump running water through it? That's going to be a while before I can swing that, but I certainly see the value. Thank you! If that's the one you're using and you've had success then that's good enough for me!


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

What about the pond UV units? They tend to be made for higher flows and with higher power for a lot less than the marine units. Just adding "marine" to the title of anything seems to increase the cost by +50% where as "pond" only adds about 20%. ; )

e.g.: https://www.amazon.com/Jebao-Aquarium-Fish-Light-Sterilizer/dp/B00CQRFGT0

Not pointing to that one in particular, just a random example. Lots out there from well-known makers for a little more/less.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Mike A. said:


> What about the pond UV units? They tend to be made for higher flows and with higher power for a lot less than the marine units. Just adding "marine" to the title of anything seems to increase the cost by +50% where as "pond" only adds about 20%. ; )
> 
> e.g.: https://www.amazon.com/Jebao-Aquarium-Fish-Light-Sterilizer/dp/B00CQRFGT0
> 
> Not pointing to that one in particular, just a random example. Lots out there from well-known makers for a little more/less.


I have wondered the same thing. I'm just not a big "reinvent the wheel" guy. It may be just as good and half the cost, but it's worth it to me to go with a unit someone else has tried and had success with. I would love to hear if anyone has used a pond version with good results.


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

The one that I had for my pond worked fine. I don't run it anymore since the pond and landscaping has grown out and now I only have a little string algae in the early spring before the plants take off and trees leaf out to shade it. But at the time it was running with an 1,800 gph pump (not effectively that much through it) and would take +1,000 gallons from pea green to clear within a week or less. Biggest catch with them is that the bulbs don't last very long. At least that was my experience outdoors. One thing that I don't know is how much they might affect temperature. Didn't really matter with that much water in the pond but might in a smaller more contained volume.


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## johnson18 (Apr 29, 2011)

Damn man, sorry to read of all your troubles. It definitely blows when things aren’t going well. I’ve been lucky with most of my fish, especially when added larger groups like my pencils which I ordered 20-35 at a time. Lately I’ve been struggling with the plants in my 55. I some how got the double tank herpes. I thought the duckweed was bad but I ended up introducing riccia flutans into the tank from some where. I’ve not had any for a couple years at least. Now it’s super thick and shading everything in sight. I’m gonna have to replant half the tank... just ripping out so much stuff. My 20L is doing great though. I was sad to see your female Nigerian Red passed. Those fish are quite stunning. Hopefully a UV filter will help. You definitely want to do your homework on that before pulling the trigger. 


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

My husband set it up and I am very un-knowledgeable about such things-- I just know it works  : He plumbed it to a flow-meter and it is attached to one of our FX6 filters in this tank. Here are some pictures:
If you have any specific questions I can ask him when he gets home.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

johnson18 said:


> Damn man, sorry to read of all your troubles. It definitely blows when things aren’t going well. I’ve been lucky with most of my fish, especially when added larger groups like my pencils which I ordered 20-35 at a time. Lately I’ve been struggling with the plants in my 55. I some how got the double tank herpes. I thought the duckweed was bad but I ended up introducing riccia flutans into the tank from some where. I’ve not had any for a couple years at least. Now it’s super thick and shading everything in sight. I’m gonna have to replant half the tank... just ripping out so much stuff. My 20L is doing great though. I was sad to see your female Nigerian Red passed. Those fish are quite stunning. Hopefully a UV filter will help. You definitely want to do your homework on that before pulling the trigger.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ya I didn't even bother to update, but the Nigerian Red females mate... my last Nigerian Red Kribensis stopped eating day before yesterday... was dead yesterday morning. Kind of weird... whatever is in the tank is wiping out Neons, Lemon Tetras, and now all the Nigerian Reds... but everyone else is completely unaffected. The upside is the crinum, bucephelandra, and other plants are growing exceptionally well. Looks like the Thomasi will be the big dogs in this tank. 

BUT... I know I mentioned that a pair of the GBR/EBR hybrids had eggs, but actually 2 pair are guarding eggs!!! That tank is doing well and I think I'm getting somewhere with the Rainbow tank. 

What plants did you lose? Or did they just get stunted?
@Discusluv... wow... that is one slick set up. So that flow meter measures the flow through the UV sterilizer? That is really cool!


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## johnson18 (Apr 29, 2011)

All of the stems a few large Crypt. affinis ‘metallic red’, & then a bunch of randoms like the C. undulata & pontederiifolia, as well as most of the mixed carpet. I’m selling the riccia clump off this weekend at our local meeting. Let some fool deal with it. Lol. 


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

johnson18 said:


> All of the stems a few large Crypt. affinis ‘metallic red’, & then a bunch of randoms like the C. undulata & pontederiifolia, as well as most of the mixed carpet. I’m selling the riccia clump off this weekend at our local meeting. Let some fool deal with it. Lol.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Do you have plants to replace them? I've got some lucens, lutea, and another taller copper colored one. I also got some bolbitus and hygro kompacta I could send you? The hygro is emersed, but it transitions really well for me. Let me know. Nothing coming from the 150 gallon tank of death.. my pontederiifolia is all in that tank unfortunately.
And I've got the ludwigia Rubin emersed too


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Yes, the flow meter slows down the water to the UV sterilizer so it gets maximum contact to kill bacteria, parasites, and some algae ( this one is debatable). I have algae, but maybe I would have alot more without the UV sterilizer. 
I found this quote from a thread on UV Sterilizers that I now remember my husband telling me when he was doing research for the required wattage we would need for our system. He did alot of research prior to deciding which system to go with. 

""UV Sterilizers are created in many different sizes from 8 watts to 240 watt for the aquarist, and even higher wattages for larger applications. What wattage to go with is decided by the size of the aquarium you plan to use it on. The unofficial rule of thumb in determining the wattage is 10 watts per 75 gallons water volume for saltwater application and 10 watts for every 150 gallons for freshwater closed systems. In pond application this is greatly increased to 10 watts per 1000 gallons, due to the suns natural capability of producing UV rays. It never hurts to get the next size up from the minimum to allow for bio-load, particles, and turbidity of the water. These factors affect the efficacy of the unit. "
*
As you can see, a freshwater system needs far less UV wattage for effectiveness than a saltwater system. Here is the thread I found this quote in:
Flow rate of a UV filter- is slightly slower better? - Reef Central Online Community


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Discusluv said:


> Yes, the flow meter slows down the water to the UV sterilizer so it gets maximum contact to kill bacteria, parasites, and some algae ( this one is debatable). I have algae, but maybe I would have alot more without the UV sterilizer.
> I found this quote from a thread on UV Sterilizers that I now remember my husband telling me when he was doing research for the required wattage we would need for our system. He did alot of research prior to deciding which system to go with.
> 
> ""UV Sterilizers are created in many different sizes from 8 watts to 240 watt for the aquarist, and even higher wattages for larger applications. What wattage to go with is decided by the size of the aquarium you plan to use it on. The unofficial rule of thumb in determining the wattage is 10 watts per 75 gallons water volume for saltwater application and 10 watts for every 150 gallons for freshwater closed systems. In pond application this is greatly increased to 10 watts per 1000 gallons, due to the suns natural capability of producing UV rays. It never hurts to get the next size up from the minimum to allow for bio-load, particles, and turbidity of the water. These factors affect the efficacy of the unit. "
> ...


That makes perfect sense. In reading reviews there are alot of complaints about the less expensive sterilizers leaking and allowing water to get into the bulb area and causing all kinds of issues the least of which being complete failure of the device. I don't think I've ever regretted buying the higher quality or overpowered option. One and done. I greatly appreciate the help. Since this tank will give way to the 265 in the near future (at least until I set this one back up lol) I'm thinking I should size it based on the 265 since that will house the Discus and Rams. I have to decide how I will get water into the sterilizer. The 265 will have a large sump... so spending the money on another big canister might not make sense. Well.... I've got time to think about it. That's alot of money for an unemployed grad student lol!


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

Discusluv said:


> "...In pond application this is greatly increased to 10 watts per 1000 gallons, due to the suns natural capability of producing UV rays."



Hmmm.... Not sure about the rationale for that one. I can say from practical experience that the sun's capability to produce algae in a pond is pretty darn good. lol Green ponds everywhere demonstrate that whatever inhibition is minimal and there are tons of bacteria and protozoans and everything else in there too, all of which are well adapted to grow in sunlight. 

I think that the difference may be that the UV lights mostly use shorter wavelength UV radiation. Which doesn't penetrate water very well. And that's in close, forced contact with whatever cells are in the unit and without all of the energy supplied by the rest of the spectrum to offset it in the case of photosynthetic organisms.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Mike A. said:


> Hmmm.... Not sure about the rationale for that one. I can say from practical experience that the sun's capability to produce algae in a pond is pretty darn good. lol Green ponds everywhere demonstrate that whatever inhibition is minimal and there are tons of bacteria and protozoans and everything else in there too, all of which are well adapted to grow in sunlight.
> 
> I think that the difference may be that the UV lights mostly use shorter wavelength UV radiation. Which doesn't penetrate water very well. And that's in close, forced contact with whatever cells are in the unit and without all of the energy supplied by the rest of the spectrum to offset it in the case of photosynthetic organisms.


I have no experience other than in a lab setting, but since the sun produces some UV versus zero UV in aquariums I could see some kind of cummulative effect. Of course ponds can be several feet deep. I don't know... you both have substantially more experience than I do. I'm still confused as to why 1 company says you need 55w for 200-300 gallons and another says you need 25w for up to 500 gallons. This is with units of almost the same physical dimensions.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> I have no experience other than in a lab setting, but since the sun produces some UV versus zero UV in aquariums I could see some kind of cummulative effect. Of course ponds can be several feet deep. I don't know... you both have substantially more experience than I do. I'm still confused as to why 1 company says you need 55w for 200-300 gallons and another says you need 25w for up to 500 gallons. This is with units of almost the same physical dimensions.


I think it would be the cheap units with poor UV lights vs the quality UV lights and also proper rated flow to the UV light to do its job. That's the best I can summarize from what I have read myself. 

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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

The Dude1 said:


> I have no experience other than in a lab setting, but since the sun produces some UV versus zero UV in aquariums I could see some kind of cummulative effect. Of course ponds can be several feet deep. I don't know... you both have substantially more experience than I do. I'm still confused as to why 1 company says you need 55w for 200-300 gallons and another says you need 25w for up to 500 gallons. This is with units of almost the same physical dimensions.


Put that aquarium in a sunny window and I can pretty much guarantee what's going to happen as far as any 'inhibition' of algae growth goes. ; )

I think chayos00 is probably right. And probably just reflects what sizes, powers, etc., they happen to sell to a great extent too.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

So I dug out my old AC70 powerhead and got one of the filter head attachments. I think it will be an excellent semi permenant solution to pump water through the UV sterilizer. My wife's got this great system of hiding away cash in our big safe in little envelopes. We never see it, it's not in any account, and she takes it out on payday so she budgets without ever considering it. She's going to set up a little bit for me to work towards the UV sterilizer. She appreciates the heartache these deaths are causing me. Plan right now... get the UV sterilizer up and running and see if the deaths stop. Then maybe my Rams, Rummynose, and Bloodfins will get a new house twice the size! Perhaps that will lead to some Discus...


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## lisals (Jun 21, 2017)

Yay for your wife!  Hopefully it does help. I'll be watching this closely when you get it! Maybe it's something I need to invest in as well.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

@Discusluv do you know what your flow rate is set to? According to the manufacturer the FX6 does like 925gph. The AC70 powerhead is 400gph. I would think that would be slow enough. I believe I have an AC50 powerhead too


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

On the flow meter itself it is reading .70 g/m.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Discusluv said:


> On the flow meter itself it is reading .70 g/m.


Is the g for gallons or grams? Can't imagine it's grams


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

My husband wrote the following for you about our unit:

The flow rate is expressed in gal per hour. 

Our setup has a T-splitter on the output of the canister filter going back to the tank. One path is straight through to the tank. The other path out of the T is routed to the UV sterilizer. I put a Ball valve on the path going to the sterilizer (after the split, before the UV sterilizer) - this allows control of the flow rate going through the sterilizer. This is critical as the UV sterilizer needs time to expose the water to the UV light to kill bacteria and parasites. If the water flows too fast, then the bacteria/parasites are not exposed a long enough time for the UV light to kill the organisms. Also, you would not want an extremely slow/low rate as the bulb generates heat, you need to keep water flowing over it to prevent it from burning out. If you stop the flow of water through the sterilizer, you need to turn the unit off.

After consulting Aqua UltraViolet's website I was able to determine the flow rate needed to kill parasites for our 15 watt model. Parasites require a longer exposure time, thus lower (i.e. slower) flow rate than bacteria. The lower parasite flow rate will obviously kill the bacteria, as well. The flow meter was installed on the Output side of the UV sterilizer. Probably does not matter whether on the In or Out side of the sterilizer - just that the Ball valve is before the flow meter. After the flow meter -the path continues back to the tank. 

A note on sizing - our 15 watt model is 20 inches long. Higher wattage models are even longer. Higher wattage would allow a higher flow rate - thus more water can be exposed to the UV light in the same time. We did not have the space for a larger unit, plus the replacement bulbs are more expensive (all sizes have the same life span - 14 months). Our model of sterilizer has a wiper on the quartz sleeve. A wiper is a ring around the sleeve attached to a rod that allows you to "wipe" off the sleeve of material build up. That requires an additional 8" of space to pull/extend the wiper rod out and back in.

If you have any specific questions on what you would like to do for your set-up, let me know.


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## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

Late to the show ..I have a hard time finding my way around .
I have used traditional meds for columnaris and found them not to be my go to choice .
Straight out using kanna and furan2 for double length[do we really think 5-6 day dose will work? they don't on many other animals...] and eventually seeing the phantom issue return …
Columnaris IMO is like our flu lately. Always around the corner and adapting to what we do...
My greatest and sure fire treatment of a real nasty columnaris infection is Potassium permanganate...

It is a product that can have a steep learning curve so proper and knowledgeable use is required. You can wipe out a whole tank . 
Most meds work basically through strength and duration with larger stronger infections being in need of stronger and longer doses of meds to kill.The stronger the med the 'larger' the organism it will be able to kill.
With PP you can bring large organisms[fish] pretty close to death without long term effect and thus kill the next sized down organism[the issue]... 
It works on a great number of issues and really is a whole medicine box in one IMO...
You just need to know how to mix it up, install proper dose ,and finally neutralize...
It once understood is just that easy ,1,2,3 done.....
First link ; Potassium Permanganate
Mixing link ; Using Potassium Permanganate aka PP - Page 3
Not sure why everyone was trying to use safe or prime [$] to neutralize but H202 is my go to and must be next to tank when dosing...
I would remove media like the rocket scientist [Roddy] in first link and thoroughly rinse sponges before treatment. The more dissolved organics in the water the faster the PP will be used up and become ineffective ,noted by color change. This is also true of all meds so the use of PP can sometimes tell more then we thought we knew about our water...


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

Nice! I use this stuff for complete oxidation. I would love to find the balance for just enough. 


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Discusluv said:


> My husband wrote the following for you about our unit:
> 
> The flow rate is expressed in gal per hour.
> 
> ...


That is fantastic! Thank you!

Bump:


Coralbandit said:


> Late to the show ..I have a hard time finding my way around .
> I have used traditional meds for columnaris and found them not to be my go to choice .
> Straight out using kanna and furan2 for double length[do we really think 5-6 day dose will work? they don't on many other animals...] and eventually seeing the phantom issue return …
> Columnaris IMO is like our flu lately. Always around the corner and adapting to what we do...
> ...


I'm almost certain it's columnaris based on the gram stain results, negative of acid fast stain (although I should do another) and the symptoms. I'm certainly not complaining that it's only affecting the Neons and Lemons. I think the plan moving forward is to remove all inhabitants once I have the UV. Surviving inhabitants will get a P.P. treatment per your recommendations and the tank will be plants only with the UV going for maybe 30 days. That way I don't negatively impact the plants that I've put so much effort into and also treat the fauna effectively. After the treatment period the 150 will house the inhabitants from the 75 Ram tank and the others will get the 75. I'll probably part with the Pristilla tetras since I don't love them and it would reduce the stocking by a good 25 fish.
I'll do the P.P. treatment in the outdoor tub I'm going to get (150 gallons) and just set up some sponge filters.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

Since PP has been brought up, I was wanting to find some myself, but seems like I can only find the dry stuff in sub 100 gram amounts. Anyone find a place where it can be found in bulk, like up a few pounds worth? 

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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

chayos00 said:


> Since PP has been brought up, I was wanting to find some myself, but seems like I can only find the dry stuff in sub 100 gram amounts. Anyone find a place where it can be found in bulk, like up a few pounds worth?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Did you find the PP? Seems deaths have stopped. Probably be 3 days since I've found a dead or less than perfect Neon. Whatever. Plans haven't changed. Get the UV on there and remove and treat the inhabitants in a tub. 30 days of the UV running and I'll slowly raise the temp to 84*. I want to do Discus, German Blue Rams, Rummynose, and Bloodfins, but I'm not sure I've got the confidence to spend that kind of money on adults. And from what I've read I don't have what's necessary to buy juveniles and raise them properly. Turned down the offer from the LFS on their Discus.


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## AdamRT (Jan 23, 2018)

Once you get the uv sterilizer plumbed in and you feel the tank is ready for the new stock list, start off with the bloodfins and/or rummynose. If they do well and you don’t have any disease outbreaks after a month or two, add the rams. Give that another month or two, and if all is still well take the plunge on the discus. At that point you’ll have kept most of the stock list alive without issue for 3-4 months which should bolster your confidence enough to drop the money on discus. 

I’d see if you can find discus around 2 1/2”- 3”. I found this was the sweet spot for me, big enough to hold their own and made it through the first few hurdles in their lives, but still small and young enough to adapt to your water conditions and grow in to the tank. If you’re not going to add all the discus at once, start of with smaller ones and make sure that any discus that are added later are a little larger. Should keep them from getting picked on as long as you’re not over stocked and none of them have paired off. I wouldn’t add any more if you are seeing breeding behavior in the tank.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> Did you find the PP? Seems deaths have stopped. Probably be 3 days since I've found a dead or less than perfect Neon. Whatever. Plans haven't changed. Get the UV on there and remove and treat the inhabitants in a tub. 30 days of the UV running and I'll slowly raise the temp to 84*. I want to do Discus, German Blue Rams, Rummynose, and Bloodfins, but I'm not sure I've got the confidence to spend that kind of money on adults. And from what I've read I don't have what's necessary to buy juveniles and raise them properly. Turned down the offer from the LFS on their Discus.


No I haven't yet, I honestly got side tracked with non fish stuff the last few days. But I found some on eBay, not sure if it will let me link to it.

https://rover.eba
y.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eb

ay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F191972131490

Remove the added enters and paste the link all together. 

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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Big suprise!! My wife told me to go ahead and get the UV sterilizer if I could get a deal on it! I've got the 15 watt Aqua UV sterilizer on the way. Plan is to use the AC70 powerhead to pump water through it. Hopefully I can get mounting figured out without too much hassle. I'm pretty excited. It's been a few days since I've pulled any dead fish out. I also have not seen a fish with any physical symptoms in several days.
Its moving in the right direction!


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> Big suprise!! My wife told me to go ahead and get the UV sterilizer if I could get a deal on it! I've got the 15 watt Aqua UV sterilizer on the way. Plan is to use the AC70 powerhead to pump water through it. Hopefully I can get mounting figured out without too much hassle. I'm pretty excited. It's been a few days since I've pulled any dead fish out. I also have not seen a fish with any physical symptoms in several days.
> Its moving in the right direction!


Awesome to hear about the UV!! Hope this helps you out for sure!!


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Perhaps this will make my decision for me. Once this tank is disease/death free for 6 weeks I'm going to either:
1. tear apart my 75 gallon with the Rams and this tank and basically swap inhabitants. With this option I would be preparing the 150 gallon tank for Discus and Rams.
2. Keep everyone where they are and add a group of Pelvicachromis Moliwe (from CoralBandit). Maybe some green neons (following an extensive QT) I would then maybe get the Rummynose school to 25 and add another 14 Beckford pencilfish to my existing 1 in the 75 gallon Ram tank.

Right now I am curious if anyone knows if an increase in temp to 85 - 86* would negatively impact the plants. Other than the anubias and java ferns, I've got a good amount of bucephelandra doing very well, a gorgeous crinum calastratum, and some crypt balanse getting situated behind the hygro kompacta. 
Does anyone know how they would fare? I'm really happy with the progression of the plants and scape in these tanks. I dont want to have to totally revamp the tank.

I'm also still trying to figure out how I'm going to set up this UV sterilizer. I figure I'll mount the AC70 with the output point up and run tubing from the outlet to the input of the sterilizer... but where/how do I mount / position the sterilizer? I can't move the stand to get behind it. I dont think running the tubing all the way down to the floor into the sterilizer and then all the way back into the tank. I'm thinking about making some kind of bracket hanging from the stationary back top portion of the hood. I'll have to see how large it is.. but that would be minimal tuning length


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## Aframomum (May 23, 2015)

Congrats on getting the "go" for the UV sterilizer! You do realize your heading towards a sump in the future right? lol 


Any way you can mount to the wall behind the tank or is that totally out of the question? 


What UV are you getting?


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> Perhaps this will make my decision for me. Once this tank is disease/death free for 6 weeks I'm going to either:
> 1. tear apart my 75 gallon with the Rams and this tank and basically swap inhabitants. With this option I would be preparing the 150 gallon tank for Discus and Rams.
> 2. Keep everyone where they are and add a group of Pelvicachromis Moliwe (from CoralBandit). Maybe some green neons (following an extensive QT) I would then maybe get the Rummynose school to 25 and add another 14 Beckford pencilfish to my existing 1 in the 75 gallon Ram tank.
> 
> ...


Sump sounds about right! LOL 

But for the UV, down on the ground is going to doubtfully work, as that AC70 is just a HOB filter and not like a canister. Another thought is that you could put a T on a canister (think that's what you've got) and then run a line up to the tank to return and have a ball valve on the line to regulate the flow. However you could always just run it on the UV output, or input, whichever is the bigger line. It's got a decent rated GPH too. Of course the slower the better for full death to "ickies" LOL 

Fresh Water Sterilizer 200-500 gals / Flowrate - 700 gph for 30,000 µw/cm2
30,000 µw/cm2 (EOL)	700 gph	
45,000 µw/cm2 (EOL)	466 gph	
60,000 µw/cm2 (EOL)	350 gph 
75,000 µw/cm2 (EOL)	280 gph
90,000 µw/cm2 (EOL)	233 gph

But for the HOB method, a bracket on the back of the tank or zip tie it to the HOB and It's 6" wide by 15" long. 

Classic 15 Watt | aquaultraviolet.com


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

chayos00 said:


> Sump sounds about right! LOL
> 
> But for the UV, down on the ground is going to doubtfully work, as that AC70 is just a HOB filter and not like a canister. Another thought is that you could put a T on a canister (think that's what you've got) and then run a line up to the tank to return and have a ball valve on the line to regulate the flow. However you could always just run it on the UV output, or input, whichever is the bigger line. It's got a decent rated GPH too. Of course the slower the better for full death to "ickies" LOL
> 
> ...


 I should have clarified. It's the AC70 powerhead. Rated at 400gph... which probably a little conservative. It pumps a ton of water. I'll post a pic. Tank has been fantastic. All the remaining fish including close to 100 Neons look fantastic. Sterilizer will be here tomorrow

Bump:








16 oz waterbottle for scale. Also picked up a good amount of mopani yesterday. Cost me $4


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Aframomum said:


> Congrats on getting the "go" for the UV sterilizer! You do realize your heading towards a sump in the future right? lol
> 
> 
> Any way you can mount to the wall behind the tank or is that totally out of the question?
> ...


It's the 15w Aqua UV. Supposed to be great quality. 
I can't get behind the tank. I might even have problems finding an outlet lol. The goal is to keep tuning minimal. I'm thinking maybe use some of the intake pipes from an old XP3 to run the tubing down and maybe mount it to one of the boards on the inside back of stand? I could then run the tubing to the old output of the XP3. Pretty much run it like a canister. We will see when it gets here. Might have to use a tubing adapter.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> I should have clarified. It's the AC70 powerhead. Rated at 400gph... whish probably a little conservative. It pumps a ton of water. I'll post a pic. Tank has been fantastic. All the remaining fish including close to 100 Neons look fantastic. Sterilizer will be here tomorrow
> 
> 16 oz waterbottle for scale. Also picked up a good amount of mopani yesterday. Cost me $4


Oh.... I've got no clue now.....


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## Mike! (Mar 26, 2018)

The Dude1 said:


> I should have clarified. It's the AC70 powerhead. Rated at 400gph... which probably a little conservative. It pumps a ton of water. I'll post a pic. Tank has been fantastic. All the remaining fish including close to 100 Neons look fantastic. Sterilizer will be here tomorrow


I can attest to the competence of the AC70 for this job. I've got one for my sump return and it does a fine job moving water through ~4' of vertical hose with a 3/4" ID.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

I was looking at UV filters myself today, I came across this one just a moment ago, maybe an idea on how mount it as a hang on back setup. Using the output and making a "hook" to hang it off the back of the tank using PVC piping. 

https://www.amazon.com/Aqua-watt-Advantage-2000-Sterilizer/dp/B003WRL6KG

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

chayos00 said:


> I was looking at UV filters myself today, I came across this one just a moment ago, maybe an idea on how mount it as a hang on back setup. Using the output and making a "hook" to hang it off the back of the tank using PVC piping.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Aqua-watt-Advantage-2000-Sterilizer/dp/B003WRL6KG
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Oh!! Now I see what you're saying








So the output is the barb furthest from the cord end. I need to measure the size of the powerhead output, but it's much smaller then the barbs on the sterilizer. I was thinking I would use the parts from the XP3 in the photo, but I think building it all from PVC is the best idea. I'll use tubing from the output of the powerhead but I'll build 98% from PVC. So maybe 5" of tubing from the powerhead to a barbed fitting that will then screw into a 90* PVC into 2" of PVC to another 90* bend. Hang that over the back of the tank and run it into additional 90* bends back to a 3/4 barb fitting to a 3/4 tubing then onto the input barb. I'll run a super short amount of 3/4 tubing into barb fitting into the same 90* PVC and construct an exact U back into the tank. I'll probably just attach on of the straight outputs from the XP3 so the outgoing water isn't blasted toward the substrate. 
I dont think this will be bad at all. I'll try to get it all set up tomorrow. 
Pics to follow. 
Again no deaths today. I'm still sticking to the 6-8 week timeframe. It was VERY tough today. The LFS got in some green neons AND blue tetras... I'm not going to lie. I was tempted.


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## Mike! (Mar 26, 2018)

The Dude1 said:


> The LFS got in some green neons AND blue tetras... I'm not going to lie. I was tempted.


Comments like this make me feel better about the good LFS being on the other side of town. If it was on the way home from work, for example, I'd have problems. As it is, the PetSmart impulse buys are real.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Got this figured thanks to Chayos00. Of course there were issues. The threads on the barbs weren't compatible with the threads on the PVC. I wasnt going back to the hardware store and playing that game. Used threadless elbows and the threaded barbs fit very snug. So I siliconed all the threads and then used JB weld on the outside. Also the nozzle from the powerhead will not swivel 90* utilizing the mounting clip. So it's just going to hang in there like an intake. Shouldn't be any issues. I'm going to run both the powerhead and the UV on the same timer as the C02 so it will run 9 hours a day. Used another 90* elbow so the output doesn't drop the water right back onto the powerhead. I'm going to let it cure and settle for 24 hours and I'll hook it up tomorrow. 
And.... no fish deaths again. I think I MIGHT be good at this point, but I'm sticking to at least 6 weeks.
I am very apprehensive about stressing out my fish and about taking on more difficult Discus.. so I will likely just do a large group of blue kerri tetras and some moliwe from CoralBandit.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

Sweet! I'm glad you already got a design figured out and implemented!! I'm getting excited for you! Here's to soon having healthy fish! I'd say maybe for the first week I'd run the UV filter probably like 24/7 just to sanitize the water as quick as you can. Then go to the timer method for running. If and when I do my UV, I'd hook mine inline with my CO2 setup and run it shorter times which would then also help the UV lamp to last much longer than the 14 month replacement interval suggested by the MFG!


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

chayos00 said:


> Sweet! I'm glad you already got a design figured out and implemented!! I'm getting excited for you! Here's to soon having healthy fish! I'd say maybe for the first week I'd run the UV filter probably like 24/7 just to sanitize the water as quick as you can. Then go to the timer method for running. If and when I do my UV, I'd hook mine inline with my CO2 setup and run it shorter times which would then also help the UV lamp to last much longer than the 14 month replacement interval suggested by the MFG!


Excellent point. I need to double check the fully cured times for aquarium silicon and JB weld. I dont want to poison fish because I rushed it. I think I'll be good, but just to be sure
Yep.. 24 hours for both


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> Excellent point. I need to double check the fully cured times for aquarium silicon and JB weld. I dont want to poison fish because I rushed it. I think I'll be good, but just to be sure
> Yep.. 24 hours for both


Sounds like time to set that outside where it's a bit warmer to speed up the cure! LOL Sure don't want to poison those fish!


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## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

I run pipes I plumb with solvents in a bucket for a little while to 'rinse ' them.
I also might be inclined to use carbon for first week in the tank as a precautionary measure ?
As for the sterilizer run it slow if you want it to kill.
High flow will only 'dis infect' as opposed to sterilize.
It is the dwell time in the unit [exposure to the light] that kills bacteria.Most UV can not sterilize a tank completely as the turnover necessary to do the job is too high to allow the unit to function to its maximum ability.
It should help but will not be the reason for cure IMO.
I am all in on PP for columnaris .We have worn out the standard kanna and furan combo and most have very limited success with that method IMO .
Research says columnaris can have a life cycle of over a year ,not the standard 33 days you see in most links …Most think they are dealing with a different issue instead of realizing it is still the same infection 'flaring up' again IMO.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Coralbandit said:


> I run pipes I plumb with solvents in a bucket for a little while to 'rinse ' them.
> I also might be inclined to use carbon for first week in the tank as a precautionary measure ?
> As for the sterilizer run it slow if you want it to kill.
> High flow will only 'dis infect' as opposed to sterilize.
> ...


That's a good idea. 1pm will be 24 hours then I'll do 2-3 hours on a bucket. Supposedly this unit will kill bacteria, mycobacteria, and protozoa at 700gph. This powerhead is rated at 400gpg, but with filter head its probably closer to 325gph. We will see. With the exception of columnaris the other 2 possibilities were mycobacterium and microsporidia. Both ofthese have significant dormant periods.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

So this thing is really unobtrusive... LOL!! Geez... maybe I'll figure something out later... or once the crinum gets to a decent size it shouldn't be quite as in your face. I let everything cure for 25 hours then ran it for 2 hours on a 27 gallon Tupperware bin. I changed out the water a couple times. Now I need to think about which tetras I'm going to do. 

Emporers - can move the ones from the rainbow tank and set a pair up in the 20L once I get the temps figured out. They're really pretty, but very cichlid like

Kerri's tetras - even prettier than the Emporers with gorgeous blue colors. Getting them from a reliable source may be difficult and then doing QT... nervous about adding fish to my system after this last incident 

Green Neons - gorgeous and a continuation from what I originally wanted... but I'm extremely nervous about anything with the Neon name... also require QT and very unlikely to breed successfully for me


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> So this thing is really unobtrusive... LOL!! Geez... maybe I'll figure something out later... or once the crinum gets to a decent size it shouldn't be quite as in your face. I let everything cure for 25 hours then ran it for 2 hours on a 27 gallon Tupperware bin. I changed out the water a couple times. Now I need to think about which tetras I'm going to do.
> 
> Emporers - can move the ones from the rainbow tank and set a pair up in the 20L once I get the temps figured out. They're really pretty, but very cichlid like
> 
> ...


No thinking about new fish! That's what got you in trouble in the first place! LOL ;-) Where's your 6 more weeks of don't change anything!? Gotta murder those "bugs" with UV! 

But IMO that powerhead isn't too ugly, as at least the color blends with the background to semi hide it. I'm very hopeful this UV device works well for your issues you've had with fish deaths.


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## Aframomum (May 23, 2015)

Don't worry about the looks - just think about the benefit your doing for the tank. Plus, you may come up with an idea later down the road for a more permanent solution.

For now...just enjoy the tank and your fish!


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

[/RIGHT]


chayos00 said:


> No thinking about new fish! That's what got you in trouble in the first place! LOL ;-) Where's your 6 more weeks of don't change anything!? Gotta murder those "bugs" with UV!
> 
> But IMO that powerhead isn't too ugly, as at least the color blends with the background to semi hide it. I'm very hopeful this UV device works well for your issues you've had with fish deaths.


Oh no dude... no fish for 6 weeks for SURE. I'm just thinking about it for fun/anticipation. Everyone still looks great and no deaths... I've noticed one of the female emporers chased behind the powerhead in the 75... cichlid style. There are only 3 males and 7 or 8 females... but they dont last long once they get chased up there. By keeping the side access door to the garage open temps dont exceed 85*. Fine for Rams... but I'm thinking that it seeks asthough the Emporers need more space and more dither fish. I cant add a species when I have one that meets the criteria struggling in another tank. I'm trying to figure out a plan 
So that the wife agrees to let me move the 20L inside to the guest bedroom that is a disaster area anyway. I'm going to try my hardest to make that happen this weekend. If it happens... I'll move 1 male and 2 females into the tank Chayos00 style. I will make sure she is one of the females. 

And in case I didn't state this with enough excitement.. NO DEATHS!!


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

No deaths!! I've accepted that the lighting is lacking. Tank is 60" and I'm using a 48" FSPEC and a 48" DHL. They are staggered to hit each side. Even with only 7 hours of light, EI dosing, and 35ppm of C02 the lighting is too much for my primarily anubias, java ferns, and bucephelandra. Additionally the red spectrum is sorely lacking and I feel this is contributing to my sub par growth. I was thinking of 3 options.

1. T5HO 4 bulb retrofit. Problem... doesnt dim, wont ramp up and down and I really want some of the effects.

2. Hook up both Beamswork fixtures to a controller to dim and an Emerson booster bar. Problem it doesnt free up any lights for my other tanks that also need some adjustments. And the Emerson board is $130.

3. Replace the DHL with a Satellite Pro Plus and run a dimmer on the FSPEC. I think this is the winner. I would be able to raise both fixtures a bit to get them off the glass tops and cover the aquarium better. Both fixtures have reds... looks like about $230 for the Satellite Plus Pro and $30 for a TC421. Hopefully in the process I can figure out how to control 2 Beamswork fixtures over one of the 75 gallon tanks. 
Also did some reshaping today and took out a ton of hygro kompacta to make room for the crinum. Also added a massive java fern to one side and some windolev near the relocated hygro. Lights are off for the night, but I'll get a pic tomorrow.

Bump:









Bump: Also added some crypt lucens in front of the hygro kompacta


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Four weeks today!! I've drastically cut down on lighting until I can get the new light and TC421 on the Beamswork FSPEC. Right now I'm doing 4 hours of both the DHL and FSPEC and then 4 hours of just the FSPEC. My hope's are to extend my photoperiod through sunrise and sunset modes and dimming.
This is what I'm thinking. I'm not sure of percentages yet.
8am C02 on
10am Fluval 3.0 begin sunrise ramping up to full light at noon.
Sunset will begin at 7pm and go until 9pm
FSPEC will begin at noon and full power at 2pm. It will start to ramp down at 4pm and completely off at 6pm.
Can this work or do you think it's simply too long of a photoperiod? I'm intending for the periods between 10am and noon and 7pm to 9pm to be strictly dim viewing. The Fluval will be the primary fixture used for dimming etc with the Beamswork FSPEC as a supplemental fixture. Any suggestions on what percentage I could use for those periods on the Fluval 3.0?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Looking great!


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> Four weeks today!! I've drastically cut down on lighting until I can get the new light and TC421 on the Beamswork FSPEC. Right now I'm doing 4 hours of both the DHL and FSPEC and then 4 hours of just the FSPEC. My hope's are to extend my photoperiod through sunrise and sunset modes and dimming.
> This is what I'm thinking. I'm not sure of percentages yet.
> 8am C02 on
> 10am Fluval 3.0 begin sunrise ramping up to full light at noon.
> ...


I'd love to tell you, but playing with extending my lighting gave my BBA a boost LOL. I've got 4.25 hours for ramp up, and 4.25 of ramp down and like 2hrs of max lighting. Try giving yourself another hour of max lighting and see how it takes it and if good, add another hour till you get what you want. IDK.... just a thought.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

So I hooked up the TC421 on the Beamswork FSPEC today. I could do it all again in 30 minutes now that I've done it once. I used an extension so none of the fixture wires were cut or altered. Mounted it on the side of the canopy for easy access and secure mounting. 
Long story short... I've got the FSPEC coming on at about 20% at 10am. Ramps up to 100% at 2pm and stays until 4pm. Then ramps down until it cuts off at 9pm. Pretty dim from 7pm to 9pm. Also cut down the time for the high power DHL fixture. It is only on from 12pm to 4pm. I think I'm replacing that one for the fluval 3.0 to have some fun with a remote and color control. 
I need to figure out how to hook up a TC421 to this light. The DHL runs more amps than the TC421 is rated to handle.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

I use a StormX.
The con is I use it for all my tanks and photoperiod is the same for all.
I don't like the lightning and cloud cover (turned off).

Photo period is 6.5 hours of full light, 15 minutes for ramp up and down.
Ramp up begins at 4:30pm so by 11:30pm I'm @ moonlight settings.

Pros are this controller can run a lot of LDD drivers w/16 channels.

Why to keep extending the photo period and increase an algae risk?

Plant growth doesn't need a long photo period just a consistent one.
Been same photo period for several years now.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

84W.. Thats what the TC-421 can handle per channel @ 21V. 84/21 = 4A
Any DHL except a 72" one is fair game.. the 21 vs 15 voltage mismatch is still a problem though..for 1 TC.

you can use that external dual MOSFET board and the TC 421 "hak" (5V PWM wire off the gate of the TC-421 internal MOSFET.

Or get a second TC-420..

There are things one can do..
This is both a 24V strip light and a LDD running off the same channel of this PWM dimmer..
https://youtu.be/NcEA1gLPgdY

Maybe it wasn't you?


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Maryland Guppy said:


> I use a StormX.
> The con is I use it for all my tanks and photoperiod is the same for all.
> I don't like the lightning and cloud cover (turned off).
> 
> ...


It's not for the plants. It's for me. I love watching my tanks. Some days I'm in class from 7am to 945pm. Some days I'm off. I'm reducing intensity hoping to extend my photoperiod using dim lighting. 
Normal photoperiod was FSPEC 100% 12am to 8pm and DHL 12pm to 6pm. I am hoping this will work. If not I will further dim the dim times. From there I'll scale back on hours, but I REALLY hope I dont have to do that.
Has someone already tried this?
If someone has I would greatly appreciate how to get a viewable period from 10am to 9pm.

Obviously tonight is my first night with these dim hours and its incredible. Both BN pleco's are out. All of the syno's ste out blasting around the tank, I've seen at least 6 or 7 Amano shrimp... I almost never see any of these fish...


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

The Dude1 said:


> So I hooked up the TC421 on the Beamswork FSPEC today. I could do it all again in 30 minutes now that I've done it once. I used an extension so none of the fixture wires were cut or altered. Mounted it on the side of the canopy for easy access and secure mounting.
> Long story short... I've got the FSPEC coming on at about 20% at 10am. Ramps up to 100% at 2pm and stays until 4pm. Then ramps down until it cuts off at 9pm. Pretty dim from 7pm to 9pm. Also cut down the time for the high power DHL fixture. It is only on from 12pm to 4pm. I think I'm replacing that one for the fluval 3.0 to have some fun with a remote and color control.
> I need to figurwe out how to hook up a TC421 to this light. The DHL runs more amps than the TC421 is rated to handle.





jeffkrol said:


> 84W.. Thats what the TC-421 can handle per channel.
> Any DHL except a 72" one is fair game.. the 21 vs 15 voltage mismatch is still a problem though..for 1 TC.


Really?! So are you saying I could run two 21v lights on a single TC421 with a properly sized power supply? I dont yet understand what mosfets are. Only that drivers go between the tc421 output and the light fixture. 
So no problem doing to simple wire job with ps going to positive and negative on input and then positive output to both fixtures and negative run from channel 1 to one fixture an ch2 to second fixture? If I'm using lights that do not have preset channels for different colors?? 
I've got to rework lighting on both 75 gallon tanks now. I need to see what the voltage is for the fixtures I have. You are saying voltages from each fixture must match correct (for simplicity sake)?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> Really?! So are you saying I could run two 21v lights on a single TC421 with a properly sized power supply? I dont yet understand what mosfets are.



Yes each channel on the TC-420(1) is capable of handling 4A (20A total)
But yes "best" to use a single power supply that is the sum (JUST amps which you figure by looking at the specs on the DHL ps's.) of the 2-4 lights (one on each channel) 










MOSFET is a solid state high speed switch or "relays" which opens and closes w/ a "gate" impulse..
The tc outputs 5V at 500Hz ish (going from memory, close)..So a really fast "switch"..
There are 5 inside the TC..









Little black "boxes"
Q4,2,8,5,3


This one has the "gate" tapped to use the 5V PWM signal.. used to run LDD's or larger MOSFETS if needed.


Actually using the tap and appropriate logic level (3-5V) NPN MOSFETS power handling is easily increased..

rough showing some possibilities for larger power handling:


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Wow! @jeffkrol- are you an electrician or just born this way, kinda brilliant.
Geez, so Greek to me.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Discusluv said:


> Wow! @jeffkrol- are you an electrician or just born this way, kinda brilliant.
> Geez, so Greek to me.


Don't swell him up too much with all them watches! >


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Don't swell him up too much with all them watches! >


LOL! No, wouldn't want to do that :laugh2: !


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Wise guys huh.. 

No, it's just the modern world (outside of programming) is mostly tinker toys..
So one concept can feed into another.
And the Chinese making millions of tinker toys helps..

Now the multi-power supply configuration has a few ???'s I'm not sure of.. like making sure all power supplies and TC share a common ground.

I'd personally prefer 1 power supply one TC..
I can't guarantee everything I post and one of the reasons for doing it is to get fedback from the wiser than I.

WHAT would be genius is if someone hacked the TC-420(1) and put more "elegant" software in there.
Pretty sure it's possible and THAT would be impressive. More so than my dabbling in "parts"..

don't know if I was the "fisrt or not but others have worked on the TC and ar much better w/ diagrams.. ..

In case you go to full blown constant current..


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## MasterofCloak (Jun 27, 2017)

Quick question: Do your different species of tetras school only with their own species or is it kind of a jumble of fish? I just bought a large school of serpaes and want to know if I could add another school of tetra without them intermixing. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

MasterofCloak said:


> Quick question: Do your different species of tetras school only with their own species or is it kind of a jumble of fish? I just bought a large school of serpaes and want to know if I could add another school of tetra without them intermixing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Now they have all become a hungry mob. Whenever I'm visible to them they are swarm. Pretty much just a big blob of tetras begging for food most times


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Again I appreciate the help @jeffkrol. I'm still not there yet. It looks like for my situation and lack of skill that this is perhaps the best option, but I would like your experience in creating the cleanest possible install. I would like to utilize plugs so that no modification is made to fixture components. I'll include a pic of what I'm talking about.









1. With 3 FSPECS on 1 TC421 the negative will be split between 3 channels while the positive will all share the single positive voltage output. How can I cleanly and securely fashion each of those into a plug to rin into each fixture? 
1 tank will have 2 FSPEC's for ease of install. The other tank will have the third FSPEC and another TC421 running the DHL. 

So will I have to simply open a new project for each TC421 and then set a mode and upload? Can the software I have for my first tc421 do everything I need for the other 2? 
Lastly can you suggest which Meanwell power supply to run the 3 FSPEC's? And I wont need anything else right? Other than wiring components. I'll try to draw out what I'm saying. Electronics for me is very visual.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

Incredible ms paint skills...


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Wobblebonk said:


> Incredible ms paint skills...



Thanks for the help..


YEA hardest "concept" is thinking positive is GROUND...

15V 350W..
What are the watts of your beamsworks?
https://www.ledsupply.com/power-sup...MI2Nj9mLmr3AIVC4hpCh1uCgyIEAkYASABEgJcrvD_BwE
4ft bw are roughly 60W..
Can run 5...
adj. from 13.5-18v approx.. so you can shorten or lengthen your lights life.

200W $28 350W $33.50

Each channel is a light head. 
Each channel has it's own program points.
All you can do is ramp up/down .
No color adj obviously..

funny not too long ago "ramp up/down" was THE luxury...


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I dont have any idea what the watts are... is the 350w Meanwell adjustable? I just want the lights running whatever power they are running now. 

As for the positive wire I wanted a cleaner install. I was hoping for some kind of splitter I could mount on a piece of plexiglass with the controller. A single input and then 3 outputs that I could run to the plugs and use a heat shrinked butt connector to make everything nice and clean. I'm sure that something like that is out there. Maybe for car audio stuff.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

What volts are they all running @ * Amps should be listed on the psus they came with.
So if they are 15V 3A *3 would be 9A * 15V or 135W+ a few more for overhead/ whatever the tc421 may use. I believe you are looking for a constant voltage source so even if you went 350W one it would be okay, it would just be less efficient and wasteful as they are usually most efficient run at just about max capacity. I think the adjustment on one would be changing what voltage is actually being output, it won't force 350W through the circuit it will force 15v through the circuit... at whatever amperage that happens to be (up to whatever it is capable of.)

So look at your light's current psus... they will tell you roughly the wattage you need.

What you describe with the splitter is no different from the wires, yes you can do something like that... anything you want as long as something conductive connects all 3 to that terminal in some way and doesn't touch the other contacts except through the light itself.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Wobblebonk said:


> What volts are they all running @ * Amps should be listed on the psus they came with.
> So if they are 15V 3A *3 would be 9A * 15V or 135W+ a few more for overhead/ whatever the tc421 may use. I believe you are looking for a constant voltage source so even if you went 350W one it would be okay, it would just be less efficient and wasteful as they are usually most efficient run at just about max capacity. I think the adjustment on one would be changing what voltage is actually being output, it won't force 350W through the circuit it will force 15v through the circuit... at whatever amperage that happens to be (up to whatever it is capable of.)
> 
> So look at your light's current psus... they will tell you roughly the wattage you need.
> ...


Looks like 15v @ 4amps... so 60 watts? So 350 watts should be able to overdrive them? Or does it not work that way?
I saw something at Home Depot that had 4inputs for wires, but it looked super cheap and all 4 inputs were on 1 side. I think it was like 10 in a pack and a pack was $5. I just thought it seemed too cheap.

Something like this but i dont know if it would work with 14 gauge wire
https://www.amazon.com/Carwires-PDB...&sprefix=wire+splitter+&sr=8-3&ref=mp_s_a_1_3


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

"overdriving" them would basically be jacking the voltage up with the adjustment past 15V for this kind of led. I wouldn't suggest doing it very much.

But yes 60W each then, and yes you can use that splitter I think. Though maybe it's possible the top screws don't go down far enough to clamp a 14 awg wire, Usually they can clamp all the way down.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

LED's are passive devices, they don't "pull" amps so it doesn't matter except the LEd's will be dimmer or ps will puke..

What is the "output" specs written on the power brick? 



> As for the positive wire I wanted a cleaner install. I was hoping for some kind of splitter I could mount on a piece of plexiglass with the controller. A single input and then 3 outputs


Can't be done except if you want all 3 on one channel, then you will prob exceed max current of the MOSFETS..

OK was on the wrong page. Most has been worked out..

BUT some understanding of LED's is in order..
FIRST potential drives the current.
Potential across the LED (VOLTAGE) will decide how much current they will draw.
LED will not light till a threshold voltage is reached..
Feed an LED 1V nothing 2V nothing 3V.. starts to draw current..
Increase the voltage to 3.3V MORE current will pas through it, making it brighter. Feed it 4 volts and even MORE current passes and, unfortunately heat has been increasing w/ every increase in voltage. Eventually heat starts to completely break down it's natural resistance and starts to draw even more current and producing more heat, till it basically breaks down from thermal runaway. Sort of a self perpetuating chain of events leading to its destruction as it goes to allowing (pulling is really incorrect) infinite amps across it....

And voltage adds in series.. Take 4 3.3V v(f) in series and you need 13.2V to fire up the string. At that voltage it will only pull the current it wants..Again increase voltage and more current and brighter diodes..


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> LED's are passive devices, they don't "pull" amps so it doesn't matter except the LEd's will be dimmer or ps will puke..
> 
> What is the "output" specs written on the power brick?
> 
> ...


Maybe I am not understanding what he is saying but I thought he just meant he wanted the one + (ground?) terminal to extend the connection to somewhere else instead of on that one terminal?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Wobblebonk said:


> "overdriving" them would basically be jacking the voltage up with the adjustment past 15V for this kind of led. I wouldn't suggest doing it very much.


Yea was kind of getting to that.. 14.2-3 ect may be max.
Bit more fun to use it as a sort of universal dimmer.. like 13.5V

Bump:


Wobblebonk said:


> Maybe I am not understanding what he is saying but I thought he just meant he wanted the one + (ground?) terminal to extend the connection to somewhere else instead of on that one terminal?



Wasn't quite sure myself.. no matter what he need at least is #lights plus 1 wire to go to the TC..
And 1 4A light per channel..
You can common the plus anywhere..


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

Not sure what you are looking for as a splitter, but this was a pricey option I saw when doing my LED lamps. But it's more of a splice device from what I can tell. Not sure if this company has something else that might work. 

Wago 221-413 LEVER-NUTS 3 Conductor Compact Splicing Connectors Qty 50 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B017NQWDY4/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_AQtuBbVG2SCZC

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

chayos00 said:


> Not sure what you are looking for as a splitter, but this was a pricey option I saw when doing my LED lamps. But it's more of a splice device from what I can tell. Not sure if this company has something else that might work.
> 
> Wago 221-413 LEVER-NUTS 3 Conductor Compact Splicing Connectors Qty 50 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B017NQWDY4/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_AQtuBbVG2SCZC
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Ya that's kind of what I'm talking about. I clean little splitter to split the "+" output wire into 3 outputs. Then run 1 to each of the ac dc plugs that will plug inline with each fixture. I guess I could just use some double sided tap to secure it to the piece of plexiglass that the controller will be mounted on. I didn't see one with 4 ports so I would have to use one with 5 ports and leave one empty. It's just my OCD kicking in. I like things clean and simple.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Alright I'm going to draw this out.. but for now...
I had to move some bucephelandra out of my emersedtank as it was getting overgrown. The problem is the yellowing of leaves. I normally water with EI tank water once a week and mist with with RODI several times a day. I use RODI to prevent mineral buildup on the glass. I'm thinking that I should be misting with tank water 100% of the time at this point as there is also yellowing in the HC cuba. Do you guys agree?

































And I cleaned up mounting and wiring for TC421


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I'm starting to believe that the Fluval 3.0 isn't going to really be worth the cost to me. So im thinking I'll replace the DHL with another FSPEC run off of this controller. What power supply do I need? I would like some room to run a strip of 660nm reds st a later time perhaps. The FSPECS are 15 volts at 4 amps. Do I need a dimmable power supply?









In another thread Jeffkrol suggested this one. https://power.sager.com/se-350-15-2...MI2Yr356KI3AIViAFpCh0_Vw7fEAkYAyABEgLUxvD_BwE
But for more lights. Will it work for 2 FSPECs with room to grow?


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I've got very little time to figure out my lighting. Seem like the Finnex CC does everything I want. Only downside is I'm not crazy about programming with the remote.

My other option is new power supply - $45
Another FSPEC- $65
And build some kind of supplement light with 660nm reds, regular reds, greens, violets, etc... but I dont have any idea what I should expect that to cost. I dont know how I would wire that up.
How many LDD drivers? 
I would have 3 open channels on the TC421.

Maybe 2 of the 300mm heatsinks and have one on each side of the brace?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> I've got very little time to figure out my lighting. Seem like the Finnex CC does everything I want. Only downside is I'm not crazy about programming with the remote.
> 
> My other option is new power supply - $45
> Another FSPEC- $65
> ...



"How to design a light like a Beamswork"
LED series parallel array wizard


so let's say you have a ba 15V power supply ..
(really should be no bigger than 300W but no issue that I know of as long as you aren't pushing 4 A per channel or 20A total)
no harm no fowl w/ the 350.. that's only "possibilities".. 











Note the "3W" diodes are really "run" at 1.8W
Want 700mA of current (now 2.5W), change resistors to 1 Ohm, 1W 
Your resistor is sort of the constant current driver...
Easiest to just do every "color" separately due to spec differences.. like red



















Shift your power supply to 14 and the warning goes away.

These are constant voltage designs.
W/ constant current you can mix/match V(f) w/ no problem,,

Affordable "real" heat sinks for 3W diodes..
https://www.heatsinkusa.com/1-813/


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Awesome!! Thank you for taking the time to post all of that! I really appreciate it!

Whoa!! I just checked pricing on a 48" heat sink and AMAZING!! I want to build at least 1 fixture, but at that price I think its foolish not to do at least 2... thanks again!


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Yea, most people just throw an LDD in and mix colors to their hearts desire..
There are many good reasons for doing it that way.


The above "simple" resistor series/parallel is actually harder than it looks to get it "perfect"..BUT it does work..

Wish they offered black anodizing for the heat sinks. Really helps out passive cooling.
Can't have everything.. cheap-sh.. 

hint w/ heatsinks. Usually wider gaps in fins and taller fins is desired..and lots of surface area..for passive cooling..

https://www.heatsinkusa.com/2-079-wide-extruded-aluminum-heatsink/
$15 @ 48".. better than bar stock.. 
Throw in the est 1W pattern:


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

The interim lighting changes have been a smashing success. Several weeks ago I disagreed with Jeffkrol regarding the efficacy and comparative ease of LED lights vs T5HO. He was very convincing and I took it as an opportunity to learn and experiment. The idea was that I would install a TC421 on my FSPEC which is a cheap, but very effective reliable RGB full spectrum light. I needed more red wavelength surely and likely green and UV. Before I spent $500 - $600 to build what I thought might work I bought a Finnex CC. Its definitely far from what I want/think would be most effective, but it would give me some comparison to my T5HO tank. Its blown me away. In total I have a 12 hour viewing period and I've been able to stop dosing gluteraldehyde. The plants are now the most vibrant algae free in all of my tanks including my T5HO tank running only a 6.5 hour photoperiod on 2 bulbs. I'm still battling BBA in that tank. 
So it's all custom LED lights from here on out for me. 
When I get some cash Im going to make this my Ram tank with bloodfins, Green fire tetras, Rummynose, and beckfords pencilfish. Working on breeding green fire tetras now.


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## lisals (Jun 21, 2017)

Wooow. That is looking sweeeeet. Wish my anubias looked that good. /jealous! lol


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

Yeah I need to get some spare cash some time or another and get myself that UV filter! Jealous! LOL


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## lisals (Jun 21, 2017)

My brain just doesn't understand anything that jeff posted rofl. I read through it and it might as well have been in a foreign language


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

lisals said:


> My brain just doesn't understand anything that jeff posted rofl. I read through it and it might as well have been in a foreign language


I'm not exaggerating when I say I read through it 5 or 6 times, then read other links, then back to his, then more links, and then a third session before I started to understand.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

The Dude1 said:


> The interim lighting changes have been a smashing success. Several weeks ago I disagreed with Jeffkrol regarding the efficacy and comparative ease of LED lights vs T5HO. He was very convincing and I took it as an opportunity to learn and experiment. The idea was that I would install a TC421 on my FSPEC which is a cheap, but very effective reliable RGB full spectrum light. I needed more red wavelength surely and likely green and UV. Before I spent $500 - $600 to build what I thought might work I bought a Finnex CC. Its definitely far from what I want/think would be most effective, but it would give me some comparison to my T5HO tank. Its blown me away. In total I have a 12 hour viewing period and I've been able to stop dosing gluteraldehyde. The plants are now the most vibrant algae free in all of my tanks including my T5HO tank running only a 6.5 hour photoperiod on 2 bulbs. I'm still battling BBA in that tank.
> So it's all custom LED lights from here on out for me.
> When I get some cash Im going to make this my Ram tank with bloodfins, Green fire tetras, Rummynose, and beckfords pencilfish. Working on breeding green fire tetras now.


Can I ask what the stocking is of the tank now?


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

RollaPrime said:


> Can I ask what the stocking is of the tank now?


25 Pristila tetras (want to move them out)
8 blue Cochu tetras 
3 Lemon tetras 
35-40 Neon tetras 
25 Glolight tetras
5 cardinal tetras
20 black phantom tetras 
12 syno lucipinnis 
3 peacock gudgeons
2 sparkling gourami's 
3 thomasi cichlids
2 albino BN pleco's 
6 Amano shrimp
15 Nerite snails... 

The pathogen wiped out hundreds of neons and 22 of my Lemon tetras.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

The Dude1 said:


> 25 Pristila tetras (want to move them out)
> 8 blue Cochu tetras
> 3 Lemon tetras
> 35-40 Neon tetras
> ...


I couldn't get a handle on the stocking so figured I'd ask. Great tank and Journal. I've been reading through it recently. Wondering just how long it takes you to catch a school of fish and move them to another tank without "rearranging" the hard scape and plants.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

RollaPrime said:


> I couldn't get a handle on the stocking so figured I'd ask. Great tank and Journal. I've been reading through it recently. Wondering just how long it takes you to catch a school of fish and move them to another tank without "rearranging" the hard scape and plants.


Sometimes its super easy. The fish in the 150 swarm to me when I approach the tank even when I'm looking down on them with a net in hand. To get all of them it's a 2 net 2 person job and we can do it in about 30 minutes most times.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

I can only easily catch the Kerri tetra's in mine, as they always swarm together like it's feeding time when I come to the tank. All others hide behind crap! LOL


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Man.... I dont know what direction I want to go with this tank. I've had 3 super healthy german blue rams die in the last 3 days.. that tank and fish are now in QT until 6 weeks AFTER I get another Aqua UV sterilizer on it...

Maybe you guys could turn me into something. I wanted Bloodfins and Rummynose - maybe 40 of each due to their schooling behavior. I've got 10 Rummynose and 25 Bloodfins in the now quarantined 75 gallon Ram tank. I also want a group of 20 Beckfords pencilfish (I've got 4 or 5 in Ram tank) and then I couldn't pass on the green fire tetras so I got all they had which was 5. Hoping to breed them. I also love green neons.. 

Starting from scratch what do you think would look good? I also want a bold colorful active dwarf cichlid that I could possibly breed (probably need to move the syno lucipinnis out for that). 

Last one that I can't get over is the lamp eye congo tetras. I could probably do a group of 8, but that's $200 plus shipping. 

I'd love to hear the combos you guys think would work.

I've also got 12 flameback bleeding hearts in another tank which might look cool in here. No Emporer tetras as they decimate the hygro and young anubias leaves.

I also have like 35-40 Neons which I wouldn't mind keeping and 25 glolights that also could look cool. 

I was considering Bolivian Rams, Moliwe Kribesnsis, or a hearty Apisto. 

I really enjoy the dynamic between the Rummynose, Bloodfin, and Beckfords, but that's alot of red.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> Man.... I dont know what direction I want to go with this tank. I've had 3 super healthy german blue rams die in the last 3 days.. that tank and fish are now in QT until 6 weeks AFTER I get another Aqua UV sterilizer on it...
> 
> Maybe you guys could turn me into something. I wanted Bloodfins and Rummynose - maybe 40 of each due to their schooling behavior. I've got 10 Rummynose and 25 Bloodfins in the now quarantined 75 gallon Ram tank. I also want a group of 20 Beckfords pencilfish (I've got 4 or 5 in Ram tank) and then I couldn't pass on the green fire tetras so I got all they had which was 5. Hoping to breed them. I also love green neons..
> 
> ...


I personally like the coloration of the Cardinals for my tank, just need to get them to breed at the end of September after my vacation. If you are still wanting some of the Kerri's I can try to breed some more of those guys when I return too.

I've never seen such expensive tetra's before you listed these lampeye ones! I checked the wetspot and I assume based on their price that's where you found them.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

The Dude1 said:


> Man.... I dont know what direction I want to go with this tank. I've had 3 super healthy german blue rams die in the last 3 days.. that tank and fish are now in QT until 6 weeks AFTER I get another Aqua UV sterilizer on it...
> 
> Maybe you guys could turn me into something. I wanted Bloodfins and Rummynose - maybe 40 of each due to their schooling behavior. I've got 10 Rummynose and 25 Bloodfins in the now quarantined 75 gallon Ram tank. I also want a group of 20 Beckfords pencilfish (I've got 4 or 5 in Ram tank) and then I couldn't pass on the green fire tetras so I got all they had which was 5. Hoping to breed them. I also love green neons..
> 
> ...


I'd go for the Bloodfins and Rummynose combo with an Apisto trio.


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## dmastin (Jun 19, 2009)

Oh nooo. I am so sorry to hear this.
Are you still thinking it's Columnaris?
You know I now have a quarantine tank thanks to your advice.
What went wrong? Again, I'm so sorry, I know this hurts.



The Dude1 said:


> Man.... I dont know what direction I want to go with this tank. I've had 3 super healthy german blue rams die in the last 3 days.. that tank and fish are now in QT until 6 weeks AFTER I get another Aqua UV sterilizer on it...
> 
> Maybe you guys could turn me into something. I wanted Bloodfins and Rummynose - maybe 40 of each due to their schooling behavior. I've got 10 Rummynose and 25 Bloodfins in the now quarantined 75 gallon Ram tank. I also want a group of 20 Beckfords pencilfish (I've got 4 or 5 in Ram tank) and then I couldn't pass on the green fire tetras so I got all they had which was 5. Hoping to breed them. I also love green neons..
> 
> ...


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

RollaPrime said:


> I'd go for the Bloodfins and Rummynose combo with an Apisto trio.


That is a killer combo. Almost exactly what I have in my 75 and unfortunately I'm down to a trio of Rams as well...
To get the action I like I would need at least 100 Rummynose and 100 Bloodfins. The bloodfins would be easy whether bought or bred (easy I hear), but healthy Rummynose are hard to come by... but man what a sight it would be!!

Purely out of fear of losing my healthy fish in 2 tanks by doing a switch and tear down I decided to switch out some species and add some species I've always wanted. 
I've got small groups of several fish in QT. In each case I bought all they had. Green neons (5), Green Fire (11), Blue cochu (13) Beckfords (3) Bolivian Ram (1).
I need 20 more green neons to put me around 120 Green neons/neons/cardinals
7 more blue cochu to put me at 20
I'm going to try to raise some green fire tetra fry and add a group of 40
3 more Bolivians to put me at 4
And I am keeping the 12 synodontis lucipinnis 
2 Albino BN plecos and 3 Thomasi cichlids (these guys are just so peaceful and nice even if they aren't the most colorful)

Once all those groups are in and settled and no losses I'm going to do 6-8 lampeye congo tetras and I'm done. 
The green fire tetra breeding should give me something to focus on while these guys go through QT and hopefully I can do the rest in 1 final addition.

I'll be removing all of the Pristila tetras (25) and all of the black phantoms (30) to make room for the others. 

I also got a killer piece of driftwood that I'm going to put in tomorrow if it sinks.

I'll get some pics up tomorrow


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

dmastin said:


> Oh nooo. I am so sorry to hear this.
> Are you still thinking it's Columnaris?
> You know I now have a quarantine tank thanks to your advice.
> What went wrong? Again, I'm so sorry, I know this hurts.


I dont know. It had to have been something on the net. No other deaths since the last Ram and no one is showing any symptoms. I'm really clueless. Need to figure out how much the wife's B-day gift will cost so I can figure out how much I have to put towards another UV sterilizer. 
As to the QT tanks.. I've got 3 going now lol... I wont make that mistake again! 
I bought new nets today so this doesnt happen again.


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

The Dude1 said:


> Man.... I dont know what direction I want to go with this tank. I've had 3 super healthy german blue rams die in the last 3 days...


That sucks. Was hoping you were done with that with this group.


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## dmastin (Jun 19, 2009)

I'm so unhappy for you.
I have two healthy blue rams and 24 neons (and other fauna) thanks to you.
Ok, so should we be sterilizing our nets regularly do you think?



The Dude1 said:


> I dont know. It had to have been something on the net. No other deaths since the last Ram and no one is showing any symptoms. I'm really clueless. Need to figure out how much the wife's B-day gift will cost so I can figure out how much I have to put towards another UV sterilizer.
> As to the QT tanks.. I've got 3 going now lol... I wont make that mistake again!
> I bought new nets today so this doesnt happen again.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Who knows, but I highly doubt it's the net.

I've kept GBR's many times over the years.

Overall a weak breed, and can die suddenly. Happens all the time. Likely not your fault, they just don't live that long.

Beautiful, but I have sworn off them.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

It would be best to have a separate set of everything for different tanks for possible cross contamination. But with that being said.... I don't. However things can be sterilized for sure. 

I have to ask, the blue cochu tetras, do they really look as nice as they do on this site? https://aquaticarts.com/products/blue-king-tetra?variant=31069226316

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

I love my Phenacogrammus aurantiacus but they are expensive and definitely need to be A. quarantined and B. treated for parasites when you get them (a single treatment of Prazipro should do the trick). I did have one batch I didn't quarantine and they all died and took out a bunch of other fish with them. Two more batches since then were quarantined and all survived just fine. They do usually come in very small and anemic looking. Not much larger than Cardinal tetras and skinny. But they put on size pretty quickly. Other warnings I have is that they do jump, lost one out of a small gap in a covered tank, and I have found Congo tetras and all there other medium sized African tetra relatives to be susceptible to gas bubble disease so take precautions if you use a Python to fill your tank after water changes. But well worth it.

Phenacogrammus aurantiacus by Kaveh Maguire, on Flickr


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## jbvamos (Mar 18, 2018)

The Dude1 said:


> I dont know. It had to have been something on the net. No other deaths since the last Ram and no one is showing any symptoms. I'm really clueless. Need to figure out how much the wife's B-day gift will cost so I can figure out how much I have to put towards another UV sterilizer.
> As to the QT tanks.. I've got 3 going now lol... I wont make that mistake again!
> I bought new nets today so this doesnt happen again.


Man that sucks! how many do you have left? How long have you had them?


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## AdamRT (Jan 23, 2018)

If you’re looking for a high wattage uv sterilizer that’s not going to cost hundreds of bucks, check out the jebao pond uv sterilizers. 

I’m running a 36w on a 120 gal at about 500gph and it’s worked like a charm so far. First livestock when in like a week ago and I Haven’t even lost a $0.39 ghost shrimp. I think it was $80? They make a 55w or thereabouts for around $100 that would prolly be a good size for your tank. 

Just out of curiosity- with all that anubias, have you considered going with African tetras/kribs/tearspot barbs? That would be an awesome tank for African softwater fish!


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## dmastin (Jun 19, 2009)

I have a 24 watt UV green killing machine sitting in my closet for a couple of years.
My tank is 55g with blue rams and neons and other misc fauna.
For those of you with UV sterilizers how do you use them/how should I use this?
Do your run periodically prophylactically or only on your quarantine tank or only when there is trouble?
Dude, do you anticipate running a UV to clear your tank and then put it away?


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## AdamRT (Jan 23, 2018)

People use them a number of different ways (there are some dedicated threads on this subject if you search “uv sterilizers” that are worth reading), but it really boils down to what your goals are. 

If you’re looking to clear up an outbreak of green water, just run it at the rated gph til the water is clear.

If you are using it to aid in the recovery of a disease outbreak, I’d run it 24/7 until symptoms subside plus 1 week. A few caveats to this: 1. uv sterilization May affect degrade certain medications so it’s important to follow the instruction and turn off uv if meds call for it 2. Killing waterborn pathogens generally requires much longer contact time with uv light than killing algae, so flow should be adjusted downward accordingly. Several charts available on aquarium shop websites. 3. UV sterilizers only kill pathogens that are in the free floating waterborn stage of their life cycle so they’re not always the best choice for treating fish that are already sick (although I have found that they do aid in recovery by reducing continued exposure to the offending microbe. They also help with stopping the spread of various pathogens between fish). 

If your goal is disease prevention, I would run it 24/7, but plenty of people successfully run them for a few hours a day on a timer- really boils down to contact time, size of unit vs. tank, and design of the specific unit (some are designed to be run intermittently). 

Having tried all of these methods at one point or another, I have found that I get the best results from running my uv all the time. 24 Watts on a 55 gal should be sufficient for killing most pathogens and preventing algae outbreaks with the pump that comes with green killing machine (assuming you get at least 2-3x turnover per hour)- but a word of caution: when I worked at eddies aquarium, we observed an interesting phenomenon in tanks that were using a uv long term and then stopped... it’s not very pc but we called it “fish aids”. We saw time and time again that fish would lose much of their natural ability to fight off disease after being exposed to “sterile” water for too long and if the use of the uv was stopped after a few months (usually once a bulb died), many fish would get sick and die thereafter if a new fish was added to the tank because the existing stock lacked the immune system to fight off any nasties brought in by the new fish (this can happen even if the new fish had no outward signs of illness). 

It’s like what would happen if the kid from that movie bubble boy all of a sudden left the bubble and went to school, or kinda like what happened when Europeans first came to the America’s- without exposure to a pathogen, living things like people and fish have no natural immunity against it. We saw this happen several times in sw tanks where the effect was much more servers, but observed it in fresh water and planted tanks as well. 

So if you do decide to run a uv 24/7, you should be ready to keep it going for the life of the tank. Probably less of an issue if you only run the sterilizer 12 hours a day, which some people do, but I’ve always gone all or nothing. 

Considering the limitations on use of certain types of filter media in planted tanks, I like having a uv sterilizer as a permenant part of my filtration system. It keeps the tank clear in a way I haven’t been able to match without one and dramatically cuts down on the need to clean the glass. For example, the diatom bloom in my new build lasted all of two days and then completely vanished. I also added shrimp pretty early in the cycle and haven’t lost a single one- idk if I can tie that directly to the uv, but it def didn’t hurt!


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## dmastin (Jun 19, 2009)

Thanks AdamRT for your thoughtful reply.
It's always smart to search before you ask and I did read some great threads here on planted tank by just searching _green killing machine_.
It's nice to hear a latest opinion and I'm looking forward to hearing Dude's plans.
Especially interesting was your experiences at eddies aquarium.
Thanks again!


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## AdamRT (Jan 23, 2018)

Yeah not to get too off-topic, but the same issue we were seeing when people stopped using a uv sterilizer is also why neon tetras crash as often as they do. They’re bred in Asia (hong Kong and Indonesia I believe) in near sterile conditions, they get stressed during the trip half way around the world and when they end up in pet shop tanks that are anything but sterile they just don’t have the means to fend off disease. 

Haha not super relevant but it’s another example of the “fish aids” phenomenon that can occur when long term use of uv sterilizers is stopped.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

chayos00 said:


> It would be best to have a separate set of everything for different tanks for possible cross contamination. But with that being said.... I don't. However things can be sterilized for sure.
> 
> I have to ask, the blue cochu tetras, do they really look as nice as they do on this site? https://aquaticarts.com/products/blue-king-tetra?variant=31069226316
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I think for me given my poor luck I need different sets of nets. Sterilizing frequently would concern me with residual agents remaining in the nets.

I'm down to 3 healthy Rams. Ive had them for several months now and I swear they were really thriving! I know Rams are usually weak, but these guys are from CoralBandit and are like no Rams I've ever seen. Active, energetic, and fearless like oscars. I'm certain it was my fault. Not even the faintest symptom and the day after I use the nets to get some Beckfords into QT (2 of which promptly died, i may have left that out) I lose 2 magnificent male Rams and a female. I feel terribly guilty. 

As to the UV. I'm sure there are less expensive options out there and I truly do appreciate the tips as I will be setting up a very large system in the next 18 months. The Aqua UV captured my heart when it stopped the deaths cold in their tracks the first day it was installed. I feel I owe them some consumer loyalty. 

As to the use of the UV. That depends on which you get. Bulb life and replacability varies wildly. Aqua UV RATES its bulbs based on them being on 24 hours a day for 14 months!! So anytime before that point they are exceeding their output. I like that. I ran mine 48 hours straight and now it comes on for 9 hours per day each and every day. AdamRT hit everything on the nose about the use of UV in my opinion.

Triport I appreciate the heads up on the Lampeye congo tetras. I was not prepared for that... I may have to wait until it cools down so I can use the 20 long in the garage for QT. I'll buy some prazipro. I'll have to take all the riparium plants out, but I do have a full glass lid for that tank. Is there any other med you suggest running preemptively? Should I set a UV sterilizer on that tank as well? I'm figuring almost $300 for that group so I will prepare as you suggest.

The plans for the tank are pretty solid now. 30 more green neons, 10 more blue cochu, 3-5 Bolivian Rams, 8 Lampeye Congo's, and 40 Green fire tetras (these guys are thriving in their tank right now). So alot of QT time still ahead of the lamp eyes. The Pristilas and black phantoms are coming out in 2 weeks when this current QT group may be able to go in. 

As to the Cochu tetras. At first I would have said NO... but something in the dynamic of the tank has changed in the last 3 days or so. Not only the blue cochu's, but the Thomasi cichlids and the Glolights have completely turned on their colors. Maybe they are all maturing at the same rate or??? I really dont know?? I have recently made some small changes in hardscape which unfortunately due to the amount of anubias really isn't visible from a distance. The new piece of driftwood provides like 10 new caves/crevices that the previous solid piece did not. There is alot more swimming/hiding real estate is the left corner now. So yes that is a prettyaccurate depiction of them under normal lighting. Go heavy on the blues like you can and they are a violet purple. They are very nippy. As long as they are the minority in a tetra heavy tank they seem ok. I will saythey are as ravenous and aggressive as Bloodfins st feeding time. I've had to change my entire feeding strategy so that other fish get food. I believe they would eagerly eat themselves to death. Feeding time is very frenzied. I dump live, frozen, freeze dried, and flakes, pellets and algae wafers all at once into a filter output so that it is dispersed enough for everyone to have a chance. Any fish that is feeling the slightest bit under the weather would surely perish from starvation. Its a sight for sure! QT will have to serve as a fattening up period as well.


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## lisals (Jun 21, 2017)

My goodness.. those plants look so darn good! That sucks about the rams though 
Dr Foster & smith still have their aqua sterilizers on sale. Not sure for how long though.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

lisals said:


> My goodness.. those plants look so darn good! That sucks about the rams though
> Dr Foster & smith still have their aqua sterilizers on sale. Not sure for how long though.


Ya I had about $500 squirreled away for all this, but my wife's birthday is the 24th and we share an account and I dont work. So it was between me getting my stuff or her getting a big surprise of something she really wanted, but couldn't afford. Needless to say she will have a nice surprise and I'm back to square one. I'll get there again.


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## lisals (Jun 21, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> Ya I had about $500 squirreled away for all this, but my wife's birthday is the 24th and we share an account and I dont work. So it was between me getting my stuff or her getting a big surprise of something she really wanted, but couldn't afford. Needless to say she will have a nice surprise and I'm back to square one. I'll get there again.



Could you put your sterilizer in to the other tank for a little while? I know there was that whole post about cross contamination though, but maybe something to think about if you're willing to risk it.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> Ya I had about $500 squirreled away for all this, but my wife's birthday is the 24th and we share an account and I dont work. So it was between me getting my stuff or her getting a big surprise of something she really wanted, but couldn't afford. Needless to say she will have a nice surprise and I'm back to square one. I'll get there again.


Tank is looking good sir! Got to also keep the wifey happy! Our anniversary is this weekend and that reminds me I need to get her something..... But at least I have an idea.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Good news! A little money became available. It's not the $500 I had, but should cover the Bolivian Rams, Green neons (if I can find them), and even the Cochu and Green Fire numbers I want before adding the lampeye Congo's.
I've got another 27 gallon Tupperware for QT for these guys. Might just use some 5 gallon buckets and/or 12 gallon Tupperware containers. I should be able to hit the 2 LFS's Friday.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

I keep forgetting to mention it, but have you checked out Imperial tropicals? https://imperialtropicals.com/ They are somewhere down in your area. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

chayos00 said:


> I keep forgetting to mention it, but have you checked out Imperial tropicals? https://imperialtropicals.com/ They are somewhere down in your area.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I'll send an email to see if could pick them up in person, but their prices seem really high. About double what I pay at either LFS. At the moment they have 2 Beckfords and 3 Rummynose. I will keep checking with them. If I could make 1 trip and get 20 Beckfords and 30-40 green neons, etc it may be a very good option. Thanks! Everytime I think I'm ready to try shipping through a business I chicken out. A hobbyist is one thing... if everyone packed their fish like ApistoDave or CoralBandit it would be another story. I got 6 Rams from CoralBandit for like $65 shipped... all perfectly healthy. It would have cost $70 PLUS SHIPPING from TWS. I really wish more hobbyists would breed special tetras. Like you do Kerri tetras, another specializes in green neons, maybe 1 day I could be the source for healthy tank bred green fire tetras... ah... to dream..

Maybe I'll figure out a system to breed lampeye congo tetras and RULE THE AQUARIUM TRADE!!


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Someone beat me to the green neons. I did get 12 more green fire tetras. No cochu tetras either though. I am very pleased that I was able to resist the Rummynose... one tank at a time. Once I get this one situated I will get the UV sterilizer for the Ram tank and work on acquiring and QT'ing those inhabitants. 

So I've got 23 Green fire tetras in total now. I figure 3 weeks from today should be good. I'll make the cochu tetras and 4 green neons wait that long in QT as well. I am going to call the LFS in Tampa and see if they got a new shipment since I was there. I'll take out the Pristilas and black phantoms maybe the day before adding the group in QT now. 

I am VERY surprised by the photoperiod I've been able to enjoy. Seems like the lights start dimming on around 830ish... and aren't completely off until 10pm. I love it... Granted most of the time the lighting is dim. The fish seem very happy with this, especially the pleco's and syno's.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

WHO IS EATING MY ANUBIAS AND NOW MY BUCEPHELANDRA???!!!

A few weeks ago I noticed that the newly forming anubias leaves were getting munched on. This was around the time that I tried to marginally reduce feeding. My reason was that I thought that perhaps my overfeeding led to some aspect of the disease outbreak. None of the fish I have in this tank are known plant eaters. They include
Pristilla tetras
Black phantom tetras
Neon tetras
Green neon tetras
Cochu tetras
Glowlight tetras
Synodontis lucipinnis catfish
Albino BN plecos
Peacock gudgeons
Analochromis Thomasi cichlids
Nerite snails
Amano shrimp
I noticed today that the bucephelandra... all types are really looking bad. Very few leaves. Surviving leaves look... chewed on... some don't even have leaves!! I had some gorgeous large patches going... I took some of the bare rhizomes out and put them in my emersed grow out tank hoping for recovery. None of these fish are known plant eaters, but someone is doing it. My Pristilla tetras and black phantoms have gotten huge and FAT. They are always devouring food before anyone else can get to it. Feeding so that others get food is very difficult and to be honest these are by far my least favorite fish. Given their voracious appetite and my plans to remove them to make room for a large group of green neons and green fire tetras... my guess is them. Its ALOT of anubias and buce in there as you can see by the picks... Like it would take a group of about 50 fish to do this much damage in maybe 10 days time. So yesterday I popped my top. Tore the tank down and removed all of the Pristilla tetras and black phantoms. I was shocked by the cylindrical mass of these fish. Bulging bellies on the brink of rupture. I did not have time to get them to the LFS and I forgot they are closed on Monday. For now they are in a 5 gallon Home Depot bucket with driftwood, some plant scraps, an airstone, and a bag of ceramic media from another tank. 

Questions...

How likely is it that I am correct? Anyone heard of any of these fish eating plants?

How long will it take for me to notice a distinct recovery. I am impetuous and prone to rash decision making. I need a timeframe from which to compare todays pictures.

I also reduced my ferts from full EI to 2/3 EI due to elevated nitrates by water change time and in an attempt to reduce GSA on the glass (Which has worked amazingly). Ive also noticed improved growth, color, and general lushness in the plants along with increased activity long term tank inhabitants This sounds crazy, but I have ZERO algae now... even on the anubias that is only maybe 5-6" from the light. I don't believe this to be the cause for the bucephelandra issues for obvious reasons, but it is a variable that I wanted to mention. 


Lastly... due to the improved plant health I stopped dosing metricide completely. Related? I don't know... 


The anubias leaves are large and remain attached to the plants when they are eaten. The bucephelandra leaves many times do not. While cleaning up yesterday I noted several bucephelandra leaves stuck to the filter intake... this has NEVER happened before.

Ive got ALOT of money in my bucephelandra collection and up to this point it has been thriving and I have removed overgrown bucephelandra from my emersed cube to add to this tank. Should I take some of the species of which I do not have emersed replicants just in case? Then they would have to transition back to emersed which in their current state may do them in...


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Some of the damaged bucephelandra


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

I find that the emersed leaves (especially old ones) or even just old leaves from different conditions actually do kind of melt away and get replaced but it can take months... not fast like crypt melt. I think high fish load/organics and or relatively higher temps makes the melt more agressive. Personally I find that as long as the rhizome doesn't turn to mushy/brittle black or brown crud then it comes back. For example my dark achilles had no leaves at one point, and even though it's not looking great now the new leaves are getting bigger and bigger and are now coming out all over. I'm probably going to split it into several chunks. It's just a really slow process compared to stems.

I've seen this most obviously with buce tissue cultures, I've only actually tried 2 petco tissue cultures of buce, but with both all the leaves melted away(/devoured by snails) and grew back from bare rhizomes. I thought my snails were being dicks but they don't touch the new leaves at all.


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

The Dude1 said:


> How likely is it that I am correct? Anyone heard of any of these fish eating plants?


I have both the Pristellas and Phantoms and I've never seen either show any interest at all in any plants including my buce. Zero. Never even looking at it and thinking about a nibble. They both definitely are fat little pigs though as you say. 

Some of the buce that I get from various places looks like it's been chomped on and has holes, etc., like that right out of the box. Even in the case of some of what I believe is grown emerged. Not sure what causes that but I don't think that it's fish in most cases. I also see the same at times in other tanks without the Pristellas/Phantoms or any other fish that I would expect to munch on it.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

That's good to hear. Another well versed member said that there are trustworthy sources that state that synodontis may munch plants if they are underfed. I ran out of algae wafers about the same time and I've tried using some of larger NLS cichlid pellets, but the catfish may not be getting them. I'll order more tomorrow as well as some other sinking vegetable based food to make this less likely if it is the cause. 
I think either way, the removal of the Pristila and Black phantom tetras should allow the other fish a better opportunity to eat. Waiting for QT is really a bummer though


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

The Dude1 said:


> That's good to hear. Another well versed member said that there are trustworthy sources that state that synodontis may munch plants if they are underfed. I ran out of algae wafers about the same time and I've tried using some of larger NLS cichlid pellets, but the catfish may not be getting them. I'll order more tomorrow as well as some other sinking vegetable based food to make this less likely if it is the cause.


That sounds more likely. The Pristellas and Phantoms pretty much just hang out in their zone all the time. Maybe chasing each other or getting chased by something else now and then. That's pretty much it for a day in the life of... They're not really around the tank searching for food and picking at plants like that as lots of others do. Not that I've ever seen anyway. 



> I think either way, the removal of the Pristila and Black phantom tetras should allow the other fish a better opportunity to eat...


No question about that. The Pristellas are some of the biggest food hogs ever. Super quick at feeding time. Kind of go into a frenzy. Just eat and eat and eat until it's gone. Phantoms not quite as bad but not too far behind them. Other bigger and more aggressive fish don't even have a chance to bully them out of food since they've already eaten it and they're gone on to grab the next piece half way across the tank. lol Yeah, I know I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know... ; )


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

I've found that after my chopping back of my anubis, I haven't really paid attention to it's growth and I realized these last two days while digging around in my tank I've realized that the anubis has sprung back a TON. There's good growth all over it now! However every so often when you find damaged leafs they just need to be chopped back and to let the good leafs grow and feed more new untouched ones. I did this the last two days with my regular java fern growing on my rocks, I know they will come back, but just have to have faith that fresh leafs will return better than those you chopped off. I have faith! You can do it! Just give the fish some more food and lets hope they leave them alone again. 

Since you mentioned the nitrate levels, what are they? I've actually upped mine a touch, I'm adding 35ppm a week now.


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## lisals (Jun 21, 2017)

BN plecos definitely eat plants. Not sure if they like anubias or buce, but the one I have (and the long since dead ones) loves eating my swords. But the damage they do is pretty obvious. 
Hope you figure out what is eating them


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## Mike! (Mar 26, 2018)

I have to agree that doesn't look like eating, but rather buce melt. One of my varieties or another will tend to have leaves that look like that at any given time.

It's possible that some of the growth wasn't a fan of the changing fert conditions. The good news is that new growth will be.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Mike! said:


> I have to agree that doesn't look like eating, but rather buce melt. One of my varieties or another will tend to have leaves that look like that at any given time.
> 
> It's possible that some of the growth wasn't a fan of the changing fert conditions. The good news is that new growth will be.


That could be true... I'll have to watch. I'm going to start doing algae wafers and a piece of zucchini a couple nights a week as well


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

The Dude1 said:


> That's good to hear. Another well versed member said that there are trustworthy sources that state that synodontis may munch plants if they are underfed. I ran out of algae wafers about the same time and I've tried using some of larger NLS cichlid pellets, but the catfish may not be getting them. I'll order more tomorrow as well as some other sinking vegetable based food to make this less likely if it is the cause.
> I think either way, the removal of the Pristila and Black phantom tetras should allow the other fish a better opportunity to eat. Waiting for QT is really a bummer though


Do you have Amano shrimp? I group of Amanos ripped a bunch of reineckii mini to shreds once. At first I was confused as to "who done it." Imagine my horror when I caught my amanos red handed.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

RollaPrime said:


> Do you have Amano shrimp? I group of Amanos ripped a bunch of reineckii mini to shreds once. At first I was confused as to "who done it." Imagine my horror when I caught my amanos red handed.


I do have a group of maybe 6? I almost never see them. They are bigger than most of my tetras now.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Man... these Bolivian Rams are such timid feeders. I dont know if they're ill... no signs... they just look emaciated and aren't eating... even bloodworms and mysis shrimp


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

The Dude1 said:


> Man... these Bolivian Rams are such timid feeders. I dont know if they're ill... no signs... they just look emaciated and aren't eating... even bloodworms and mysis shrimp


Yeah, that's not really typical. A little less aggressive eaters at feeding time than the GBRs but generally not shy about it. How long have you had them?

Have any bottom-feeder wafers? Mine love the small Hikari sinking wafers. When I dump those in intended for my corys along with frozen brine shrimp/bloodworms for them and others, they'll usually still steal the wafers away over the frozen.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Mike A. said:


> Yeah, that's not really typical. A little less aggressive eaters at feeding time than the GBRs but generally not shy about it. How long have you had them?
> 
> Have any bottom-feeder wafers? Mine love the small Hikari sinking wafers. When I dump those in intended for my corys along with frozen brine shrimp/bloodworms for them and others, they'll usually still steal the wafers away over the frozen.


I've had the 2 super timid ones since Saturday. The other for a week longer. The first one is getting better as is one of the 2 newer ones. I actually just got more hikari wafers yesterday. I drop them in at night for the synodontis. I'll drop one in and dim the lights. Maybe their just slow to acclimate?


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## Mike! (Mar 26, 2018)

The Dude1 said:


> I've had the 2 super timid ones since Saturday. The other for a week longer. The first one is getting better as is one of the 2 newer ones. I actually just got more hikari wafers yesterday. I drop them in at night for the synodontis. I'll drop one in and dim the lights. Maybe their just slow to acclimate?


Google "new Bolivian rams not eating." It's a popular enough forum question to suggest it's a thing. I have no experience with it, but I was pretty sure I'd read that before, so I searched...


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

The Dude1 said:


> I've had the 2 super timid ones since Saturday. The other for a week longer. The first one is getting better as is one of the 2 newer ones. I actually just got more hikari wafers yesterday. I drop them in at night for the synodontis. I'll drop one in and dim the lights. Maybe their just slow to acclimate?


That's not very long and a good sign if they're coming around. One that I have was a little more timid at first. Still is in general. Just a smallish, more timid fish by nature. The rest all pretty much eating well within a day or so. But none of mine were shipped so I'd expect that would make a difference if yours were. The only one that I ever had that didn't eat well within a relatively short time was one that was the last left in a tank for a long time that looked really rough that I felt bad for and finally bought. Didn't make it and I shouldn't have bought it to begin with but I'm a sucker for abandoned fish sometimes.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

In my experience a Bolivian Ram who is not eating with gusto is not well. 


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

mbkemp said:


> In my experience a Bolivian Ram who is not eating with gusto is not well.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ya. I think you're correct. I just noticed one of the two that I am concerned about has long white stringy poop.... parasites. Wouldn't even eat the mix of bloodworms and black worms that I squirted right in front of him. The other literally avoids food like it is attacking him/her. Both of their stomachs are sunken. I ordered Seachem Garlic, Prazipro, and more Paragaurd (for my Rainbow tank). The original Bolivian Ram has quickly captured my heart. What personality!! Charges to the front when I approach. Follows me around and charges at any fish that invades his private space!! Just a little poke, but super funny. When I try to spot feed the others it appears that the healthy gives them a minute to eat, then when they don't he kind of moves them along and happily eats the food. Im SUPER excited to get all of these fish healthy and together. I think its going to be incredible! 
2 of the Cochu tetras did not pass QT. One had a tail that was growing increasingly white... no fluff... just white like it was necrotic. I was able to catch him with my hand so that is the kiss of death in my experience. Another... I don't know what happened... one day he was a little sluggish with a huge belly (from overeating it looked like) the next day he appeared to have been torn to shreds. Everyone else looks great. Adding the remainder of the Green Fire tetras today. 
Im thinking I should move the healthy Ram from the other two... or should I leave him in there for treatment? I am pretty confident that the other 2 Rams will be fine. They are thinner than I would like, but most of my fish are somewhat stocky so... I was thinking that I may add more?? I have 3 Thomasi in there that have split the tank into thirds… but they are comparatively small, shy, peaceful cichlids. I believe the Rams will work well with them. I also have much better luck with aggression in overstocked tanks and I personally just love the look and action in them. There is no shortage of dither fish that's for sure! 
Right now I think I have 
5 Cardinals 
3 Lemon tetras
75+ Neons
10 Green Neons
12 Cochu tetras
35+ Green fire tetras
25 Glowlight tetras
3 Thomasi
Pair ABN plecos
12? syno lucipinnis (I say ? because I found a skeleton in there a few days ago. It could only be from a syno with the bony head and ventral spines)

3 Bolivian Rams in QT.... I think that's it. Oh I also have some regular Neons that looked great,a single green neon, and 4 really good looking cardinals in QT. 
Id still like to get another 20-30 green neons
and Im hoping to have some success breeding green fire tetras and Glowlights in the fall. 
Id also like a solid school of 20 cochu tetras. I like the action and blast of blue/purple they add in their chasing. 
It sounds like a lot more fish than it looks. I rehomed a total of 50 black phantoms and pristillas several days ago and I swear the tank is much more active without them.

Any tips on how to treat the possible parasite issue? Will the UV in the main tank prevent it from spreading if I don't catch it all or if I prematurely move the one healthy Ram?
I plan on just dosing Prazipro and soaking the free dried black worms in garlic juice.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> Ya. I think you're correct. I just noticed one of the two that I am concerned about has long white stringy poop.... parasites. Wouldn't even eat the mix of bloodworms and black worms that I squirted right in front of him. The other literally avoids food like it is attacking him/her. Both of their stomachs are sunken. I ordered Seachem Garlic, Prazipro, and more Paragaurd (for my Rainbow tank). The original Bolivian Ram has quickly captured my heart. What personality!! Charges to the front when I approach. Follows me around and charges at any fish that invades his private space!! Just a little poke, but super funny. When I try to spot feed the others it appears that the healthy gives them a minute to eat, then when they don't he kind of moves them along and happily eats the food. Im SUPER excited to get all of these fish healthy and together. I think its going to be incredible!
> 2 of the Cochu tetras did not pass QT. One had a tail that was growing increasingly white... no fluff... just white like it was necrotic. I was able to catch him with my hand so that is the kiss of death in my experience. Another... I don't know what happened... one day he was a little sluggish with a huge belly (from overeating it looked like) the next day he appeared to have been torn to shreds. Everyone else looks great. Adding the remainder of the Green Fire tetras today.
> Im thinking I should move the healthy Ram from the other two... or should I leave him in there for treatment? I am pretty confident that the other 2 Rams will be fine. They are thinner than I would like, but most of my fish are somewhat stocky so... I was thinking that I may add more?? I have 3 Thomasi in there that have split the tank into thirds… but they are comparatively small, shy, peaceful cichlids. I believe the Rams will work well with them. I also have much better luck with aggression in overstocked tanks and I personally just love the look and action in them. There is no shortage of dither fish that's for sure!
> Right now I think I have
> ...


Not sure what to say about most of it, but for treating the Rams, I would treat all of them. Better safe than sorry! 

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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

Levimisole is good for treating camellanus. If they will still eat Fenbendazole is broader spectrum 

If they will still eat bloodworms then follow directions with Fenbendazole would be my advice as well as epsom salt baths. 

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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

If you are seeing white feces, but fish still eating then you have flatworms and one treatment of Prazipro would be sufficient. If you see white feces, fish not eating, ( especially in Cichlids) then you want to treat with metronidazole Seachem Metroplex. I would treat all the Rams at same time. 



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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Discusluv said:


> If you are seeing white feces, but fish still eating then you have flatworms and one treatment of Prazipro would be sufficient. If you see white feces, fish not eating, ( especially in Cichlids) then you want to treat with metronidazole Seachem Metroplex. I would treat all the Rams at same time.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Why do all these fish diseases require an interview, family history, fecal and tissue analysis. I dosed Prazipro last night and I'm soaking all the food in garlic juice along with some ick shield (I figure it works for some parastites). It states not to use any other meds while doing Prazipro. Based on what you said I will probably need to do metroplex. That's what I get for trying to save 2 nice looking Bolivian Rams from Petsmart. This particular one is always spotless and I've never seen an obviously sick fish in their tanks. I blame Mika.. she loves Petsmart, Lowes, and Home Depot and always drags me in there


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> Why do all these fish diseases require an interview, family history, fecal and tissue analysis. I dosed Prazipro last night and I'm soaking all the food in garlic juice along with some ick shield (I figure it works for some parastites). It states not to use any other meds while doing Prazipro. Based on what you said I will probably need to do metroplex. That's what I get for trying to save 2 nice looking Bolivian Rams from Petsmart. This particular one is always spotless and I've never seen an obviously sick fish in their tanks. I blame Mika.. she loves Petsmart, Lowes, and Home Depot and always drags me in there


Mika is so beautiful!


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

We had to put down our girl back in 2015 and after Hawaii we were thinking now it's time to get another Doberman. There's a couple of show dogs in my town and as I follow them on FB, they posted about having a prego girl. I messaged them about what they will sell the puppies for and was told $2k! OMG.... Guess I won't be getting one from them! But am I crazy thinking of getting a puppy and then having a 3 year old and a 1.5 year old. HAHAHA

Bump: We had to put down our girl back in 2015 and after Hawaii we were thinking now it's time to get another Doberman. There's a couple of show dogs in my town and as I follow them on FB, they posted about having a prego girl. I messaged them about what they will sell the puppies for and was told $2k! OMG.... Guess I won't be getting one from them! But am I crazy thinking of getting a puppy and then having a 3 year old and a 1.5 year old. HAHAHA


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## AdamRT (Jan 23, 2018)

Hey dude! 

Having kept all diff size planted tanks over the years, I’ve found that with my larger tanks there is always something going on that requires intervention. If it’s not a fert imbalance it’s an issue with one or more of the fish or a new type of algae growing or surface film on the water or co2 fluctuations or (fill in the blank)...no matter what, it seems like it’s always something. 

While I do think larger tanks allow for more stable parameters overall, that is sometimes offset by the following: larger tank= more fish= more opportunities for disease/aggression/feeding issues. 

Larger tank= higher rates of fertilization= more opportunities for imbalances. 

Larger tank= more diff species of plants= more competition between species for available resources= one or more species out competing the others for certain ferts= specific fert deficiencies/specific plants not doing as well as others. 

Obviously in a well kept tank all of these issues can be addressed without too much trouble, but add on top of that the need for more/larger equipment, more co2, more powerful lighting, and it can get tricky. I think this is why I’ve been seeing more and more larger tanks being set up as low or medium tech with slower growing species of plants, lower lighting, dirt substrates, and sometimes no co2. 

However, there are very few sights as beautiful as a large well-kept high tech planted tank and the benefits def outweigh the downsides imo. 

I read through all the latest posts and have a few suggestions that might help with some of the issues you’re working to address: 

1. Feed smaller foods: my neons are no where near as aggressive at feeding time as the rummy nose and green fire tetras. In order to make sure everyone has a chance to eat, I feed hikari cyclopods+ at least once a day (usually when lights are just starting to ramp up in the am or are almost off for the night). The volume of individual prey items a single cube of cyclopods provides ensures that everyone has plenty of access and the neons seem to enjoy the more subdued feeding response in from the other fish. They all just kind of hang out in the current gently snatching individual pods as they float by. 

the less frenzied way they feed on the pods and the way the food items are dispersed throughout the entire water column allows for a very natural feeding response and even the most peckish of fish get to eat their fill. 

This is also true with frozen daphnia, though the response is a little more ramped up and the food isn’t quite as dispersed since the individual items are larger than the pods. I alternate between the two, but I always make sure they got pods at least once a day. All the hufas and caratenoids in the pods really help bring out the fishes colors (especially reds). 

As far as reducing your ei levels to address high nitrates, I’ve had to do the same thing when dosing thrive +. I’ve ordered a bottle of thrive c to see if that is a better fit given the relatively high bioload in my tank. If you are scaling back your ei dosage, one thing to be mindful of avoiding is P or K deficiencies. You mentioned having some gsa in the tank, which I find only happens to me when the phosphates are too low. So When I dialed back the thrive+ to address Excess nitrogen I made a point to dose P and K separately from the thrive and it immediately knocked out the gsa. Glosso factory sells liquid npk in individual bottles along with micros, and these have worked very well for me for this purpose. 

Sometimes I’ll dose seachem flourish instead of micros in order to get the additional K, and this also seems to work well as long as I don’t overdo it. 

Hope this helps.. Your tank looks great!


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

chayos00 said:


> We had to put down our girl back in 2015 and after Hawaii we were thinking now it's time to get another Doberman. There's a couple of show dogs in my town and as I follow them on FB, they posted about having a prego girl. I messaged them about what they will sell the puppies for and was told $2k! OMG.... Guess I won't be getting one from them! But am I crazy thinking of getting a puppy and then having a 3 year old and a 1.5 year old. HAHAHA
> 
> Bump: We had to put down our girl back in 2015 and after Hawaii we were thinking now it's time to get another Doberman. There's a couple of show dogs in my town and as I follow them on FB, they posted about having a prego girl. I messaged them about what they will sell the puppies for and was told $2k! OMG.... Guess I won't be getting one from them! But am I crazy thinking of getting a puppy and then having a 3 year old and a 1.5 year old. HAHAHA


A puppy and 2 young children would be hard. Mika is 2 and she wants my full attention and wants me playing with her during all her waking hours. When she does finally nap she pins me down one way or another. We dont have any kids and I dont work so there's usually someone home. 
Man I'm sorry. I cant imagine losing Mika. When I'm not in class we are together. She is a HUGE part of my life. Mika was very expensive. She came from a breeder that supplies my Police Dept and some Government units with K9's. Each dog undergoes extensive physical and psychological testing and we were able to look at each puppy and their intuitive responses to a number of situations. I figured it was worth it for the first time. I would like to rescue our next dog/dogs. Especially now that I know about pet insurance.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

The Dude1 said:


> I would like to rescue our next dog/dogs. Especially now that I know about pet insurance.


Dude1 adopting a rescue is a very satisfying thing to do. Many of these dogs would otherwise be raised in a very tough environment.

Here's one of mine. A pit mix and just a great all around dog. Many times I think about how different his life would have been considering where he is from, and how much a part of my family he is now. Well worth looking into. Do it.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The one bonus of my job is that I do work from home and have for the last two years, so pretty much there is always someone at my house. But yeah, Yazmin was a big part of my life and I even still have a very hard time looking at her pictures without tearing up.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Some recent pics


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

How are the rams doing? 

I lost one of my two oldest GBRs last week. The mother and grandmother for all of the rest that I have. No apparent reason that I can see. Fine one evening, gone the next morning. No other fish seemingly affected before or since. *shrug*


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Mike A. said:


> How are the rams doing?
> 
> I lost one of my two oldest GBRs last week. The mother and grandmother for all of the rest that I have. No apparent reason that I can see. Fine one evening, gone the next morning. No other fish seemingly affected before or since. *shrug*


I'm starting to believe that's just what happens with GBR's. I cant recall ever seeing a sick GBR (ick, columnaris, mycobacterium....) I think they just die. My remaining 3 GBR are doing fantastic. They constantly lay eggs.. eat them the next day. The single Bolivian Ram in this tank is my favorite fish.. he is so entertaining.. of the 2 that had parasites only 1 survived, but he is doing fantastic... kind of stubborn. He only wants live food. Wont bother with mysis shrimp, blood worms, and black worms soaked in garlic... hopefully I can get him a little bigger and develop a stronger feeding response. He'll starve in the 150.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Thanks for sharing that article on Columnaris, it really is one of the most comprehensive research articles Ive found that discusses both the bacteria in food fish and fish in the ornamental trade. I have re shared it on another forum because I think its important to recirculate well-researched, scientifically based, and peer reviewed articles when we find them. --- As a means to counteract that " My experience has shown, therefore... "x,y,z". Not that personal experience is not relevant as a contribution to knowledge, but it can never account for variables or analyze and cross-reference data in the same way a controlled experiment/ controlled environment can. But, I am telling this to someone who know this already.


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## Coope (Sep 30, 2016)

What a beautiful tank


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I've been having trouble getting other Bolivian Rams to add to the tank. First 2 had parasites. I treated with metroplex and it appeared that 1 survived and was doing well. I moved him into another tank and he stopped eating again and died a few days later. I've got 1 more in with 5 green neons, but he is still hiding and reclusive. I dont think he's eating either. The green neons are doing exceptionally well, but they are very small. Going to keep them in the 11.4 until they get some size. 
I also had a possible columnaris issue in the 150. No losses though. I dosed the tank 1 time with Kanaplex and everyone is good. 
I'm setting up some 12 gallon totes for a breeding group of green fire tetras and another for glowlights. A local place is getting a big group of green neons for me. Once those make it through QT assuming no other tragedies I think it's where I want it.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

So the 5 green neons are down to 4, but they are super active, bold, and hungry. Saw something that could have been the beginnings of ick on one so I've been treating them with Paragaurd for 5 days now. I will see how the one looks when I do water changes later and do 4 more days after he is clear. Bolivian Ram is still hiding 99% of the time, but is eating live foods at least. I've got 50-60 (have not gotten final number yet) green neons coming this week. Assuming they do well that will probably round out the stocking on this tank for the foreseeable future. Everything else is going really well. Still seeing some die of from the bucephelandra though. Fortunately the algae wafers st night seemed to have halted the herbivory thus far.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

I hope you post pics when you get more green neons. And as for the ram, does he have a female in there? It should bring him out of his "shell" so to speak.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

Ich even with the UV going?? Damn that sucks! Hope those new neons work out for ya! 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

chayos00 said:


> Ich even with the UV going?? Damn that sucks! Hope those new neons work out for ya!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


No they are in the 11.4. No UV on that tank. My main tank is still doing awesome. I'm super excited for them. I think he's sending them tomorrow so I'll get them Thurs. He's had them for 4 weeks and already went through a General Cure treatment. Not sure where/how I'm going to do QT. May have to set up both 27 gallon bins... additionally they may be small like the 4 I've got in QT. I need to put some size on them before they can go in the main tank.
I've got 1 Bolivian ram in the 150 and another in the 11.4. The one in the 11.4 was being a finicky eater, but I've got him going nuts for live food. Need to get him eating frozen/freeze fried food and a bit more size before he goes into the 150. For me Bolivians stop eating when introduced to a new tank. Lost 3 this way. Not losing another.
I'm waiting to hear final count but should be 50+ green neons. It's going to look insane


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I received my 60+ green neons on Friday. I cant say enough about the vendor Aquatic Clarity. I heard him mentioned a couple times on another forum and I am truly grateful. Aside from the entire experience being seamless, these are the best looking green neons I've ever seen. I have not lost a single one and they are all a very good size and obviously in tremendous health. They were eating baby brine shrimp the same day!! I'm going to keep them in QT for 14 days. This vendor had them in his tanks for weeks before shipping them to me. I'm just beyond elated with this order. I have decided that this will be the last addition to this tank. I may add some glowlights if I have success breeding them. I've also got 3 remaining green neons and 1 Bolivian ram in QT. I started out with 5 green neons. They were very small and 1 died within a day or 2. A second disappeared after the completion of a round of Paraguard for some white pathogen (possibly ick) that has now appeared on another fish. I'm very eager to be done with trying to battle these introduced pathogens.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Finally have what I wanted. Everyone is healthy. I've got maybe 75 green neons along with the survivor neons and cardinals. The 2 Bolivian Rams are doing good. I'm going to start focusing on the GBR tank and see if I can raise some fry


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> Finally have what I wanted. Everyone is healthy. I've got maybe 75 green neons along with the survivor neons and cardinals. The 2 Bolivian Rams are doing good. I'm going to start focusing on the GBR tank and see if I can raise some fry


Looking good! Good luck on your fry! I've got my project for breeding some more finally started too. Just need to confirm what they need for breeding and start tweaking the tanks water for each of them. Cardinals, CPD, and pea puffers.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

When it comes to GBR's the good news is that they don't need any specific water parameters to spawn.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

@The Dude1 Hope things are going well! Haven't seen you around in a bit.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

chayos00 said:


> @*The Dude1* Hope things are going well! Haven't seen you around in a bit.


Yup. We need some updates!


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

RollaPrime said:


> Yup. We need some updates!


He hasn't logged on TPT since Dec 2018. I hope he's just lost interest in the hobby/forums vs the other aspect I unfortunately can imagine....


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

chayos00 said:


> He hasn't logged on TPT since Dec 2018. I hope he's just lost interest in the hobby/forums vs the other aspect I unfortunately can imagine....


Yeah he was an active poster and updated his journal frequently. I hope he gives us a heads up soon!


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