# Totally baffling 20g..Please advise



## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

> I have followed the recommendations that I have researched online and in my LFS as far as fertilizing and only succeeded in growing more algae. However my Lace, sword, crinum and java fern have managed to thrive and consistently put out new growth until lately they have all just stopped growing. I tried dosing Excel but that just made my hygro melt almost away so I put it in my 10g betta tank and stopped dosing. I was told to try Flourish and promptly had a new kind of algae show up but no plant growth.


You algae issue is being caused by a nutrient deficiency. When plant nutrient levels are too low plants will not grow but Algae can. In theory a fertilizer would resolve that. Unfortunatly some fertilizer are junk while other will work well for some types of water but not for others. Also there are 14 mineral nutrients plants need very few supply all 14 nutrients.

What fertilizers have you tried? Also what is your GH and KH of your tap water. If you are not using tap water what is your water source? also what are the dimensions of your tank (WxDxH).



> I have read and been told many times that adding Co2 is the only option but do I really have to add Co2 to correct this problem and improve growth?


CO2 will not work if you have a plant deficiency which I believe is likely in your case. You can grow plants wihtout CO2 but growth will be slower. Also sometimes the rapid plant growth CO2 promotes can create deficiencies.


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## oscarlloydjohn (Dec 3, 2017)

Ammonia of 0.25 could indicate problems - possibly causing algae too. You also have 0 nitrates which could mean your plants need more; when they have a deficiency then algae can take hold as the plant cannot outcompete it.

Oscar


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## sfsamm (Apr 3, 2017)

I'm far from great on this but agree with everything stated above. Ammonia being present is a sign that your tank hasn't or has lost the cycle. I would rectify that as your first priority. An Aquaclear 30 runs at about 150 GPH and is rated up to 30 gallons which realistically even with your stocking is completely sufficient, which leads me to how often and how you service the filter?

You said aggressive water changes? I don't understand what that means. If you are referring to the volume I change about 75% in every tank once a week except shrimp tanks which get 20-30% unless I see nitrAtes over 10ppm then I change more accordingly.

Excel won't hurt your shrimp.

You have the finnex 24/7, what setting is it on for that 6-7 hours? If your blasting them at full bright during that period I have a feeling that is a significant portion of the issue.

Also dirt tanks deplete their nutrients around a year which may be what happened. You don't need to replace the dirt just add root tabs.

What ferts do you use? What is your fert schedule? Can you post a photo of the tank and the algae that is growing? Several types of algae grow more prevalently in certain deficiencies. 

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## SpartanMom (Mar 13, 2018)

I have been dosing Flourish twice weekly. i was thinking of adding root tabs as well. Im sorry if this sounds stupid but how do I increase nitrates. Feed more? Add more fish? HOw often and what should I be dosing. So overwhelmed with all of the options and things. Thank you for the input.


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## SpartanMom (Mar 13, 2018)

Surf said:


> What fertilizers have you tried? Also what is your GH and KH of your tap water. If you are not using tap water what is your water source? also what are the dimensions of your tank (WxDxH).


I have tried Flourish Twice weekly. I use remineralized RO water. Using Equilibrium, Acid Buff and Alkaline Buff. Tank is 24x16x12.


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## SpartanMom (Mar 13, 2018)

@sfsamm
I clean the filter tubes at every water change to clear any blockage from dead plants, dirt, etc. I rinse the sponge about in tank water once every two weeks. I have to replace the purigen because it has been recharged once. The biomaxx gets replaced once every three to four weeks. Never anything all at once. 

When I say "aggressive" I just mean that I change 25 -30% of the tank and clean as much algae off of the glass and hardscape as I can. 

My Finnex is set on the 24/7 setting and I turn it on early am ( EST) for three hours with a short siesta period then back on. The lights are very dim for the first part of the photoperiod.

I will be posting pics shortly as soon as I figure out how. Thanks bunches for the input.


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## sfsamm (Apr 3, 2017)

My understanding of the whole photosynthesis process in aquatics has led me to the understanding that plants do not reach peak photosynthesis abilities until around 4 hours of lights and that a siesta period is useless if not over 2 hours in order to actually disrupt the photosynthesis ability of most algae. That said different plants and different algaes will differ a bit.

Why do you replace the biomax at all? It's ceramic rings isn't it? Stop replacing it and just rinse it off in old tank water every couple weeks. That is very very likely why you are getting Ammonia. 

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## SpartanMom (Mar 13, 2018)

sfsamm said:


> My understanding of the whole photosynthesis process in aquatics has led me to the understanding that plants do not reach peak photosynthesis abilities until around 4 hours of lights and that a siesta period is useless if not over 2 hours in order to actually disrupt the photosynthesis ability of most algae. That said different plants and different algaes will differ a bit.
> 
> Why do you replace the biomax at all? It's ceramic rings isn't it? Stop replacing it and just rinse it off in old tank water every couple weeks. That is very very likely why you are getting Ammonia.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Thank you for the info. I am still new and learning all of the different variables. As far as the ceramic rings, I must admit that I wondered if I was restarting the cycle when I did that because was getting rid of a lot of my good bacteria. Thank you for all of your time, input, and patience for my learning curve. :grin2:


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## sfsamm (Apr 3, 2017)

SpartanMom said:


> Thank you for the info. I am still new and learning all of the different variables. As far as the ceramic rings, I must admit that I wondered if I was restarting the cycle when I did that because was getting rid of a lot of my good bacteria. Thank you for all of your time, input, and patience for my learning curve. :grin2:


I'm still learning myself with planted aquariums and always trying new different stock. I'm glad I could be of any help  I think you'll see some improvement with root tabs and a stable cycle to start.

Still post up some photos if possible and we'll see what other help we can provide in algae issues.

As for root tabs, look at ingredients and be sure to get N, P, K in them. Swords seem especially P hungry in my experience. Thrive, Seachem and API all make tabs with different mixes and all have their purpose. API might be a good place to start since they are easily available and contain primarily N, P, K. With soil still likely containing enough of the other nutrients that's where I'd start personally as to satisfy those nutrient needs without adding anything else. You can always change it later if you see other issues. I'd also recommend adding iron (Fe), in any form you choose. Adding the Fe to the water column is easy and you can add it a couple times a week, pretty much any liquid Fe is going to be the same so take your pick. 

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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

> I have tried Flourish Twice weekly. I use remineralized RO water. Using Equilibrium, Acid Buff and Alkaline Buff. Tank is 24x16x12.


Are you are talking about Flourish comprehensive (sachem sells multiple Flourish products).

Flourish comprehensive has all the needed nutrients. However if many are only present at very low levels if you follow Sachems dosing instructions. It works well if your water has nutrients in it. Your water has no nutrients. And I know from personal experience plants won't do well with just flourish. If your water is deficient in just 1 or 14 essential plant nutrients they won't grow while algae can. If the plants have all the nutrients they need they will grow and algae tends to struggle under these conditions.

Flourish comprehensive has no nitrogen in it you want your nitrate level at about10ppm. it has potassium (K), phosphorous (P), calcium (Ca), magnesium (Mg), and sulfur (S) but at rather low levels. Phosphate should be dosed at 1/10 the nitrate value or 1ppm. 

The micro nutrients are chlorine (Cl), iron (Fe), Boron (B), Manganese (Mn), Zinc (Z), Copper (Cu), Molybdenum (Mo, Nickel(Ni) flourish has all of these but if you follow the dosing instructions on the bottle. You likely are short everything but Cl and Fe. Equilibrium also has Mn and Fe which will help. So you still need more B, Z, and Cu. Mo and Ni are only needed at 1 part per billion and fish food should supply much of the needed Mo and Ni. 

Surprisingly most fertilizers on the market Don't have any Ca, S, Cl. I guess the manufactures assume your water has them. Also tap water is often very rich in copper so most fertilizer have very little to no copper in them. Most copper in aquarium come from the copper pipes in most homes. Adding enough Equilibrium for 2 degrees hardness should supply all the K, Ca, Mg, S, you plants need and would significantly help in supplying Fe, and Mn. Adding 76milligrams or 1/64 of a Teaspoon of table salt will supply all the chlorine plants need.

You could try a different fertilizer, Thrive (available at Nilocg.com may be a good choice. That with Equilibrium would cover macros Boron, and supply some zinc and copper. This might work for you. A lot of people on this forum for micros use CSM+B. Unfortunately the ingredients in CSM+B are PH sensitive. It works well in CO2 aquarium because the CO2 makes the water acidic. It will not work at your PH. You could try mixing RO with Tap water but it is impossible to know if that will work. A RO tap mix with fertilizer and a GH booster may work. In my case I decided to make my own Micro but this isn't simple to do.

As to your elevated ammonia levels. Healthy plants can easily reduce that level. until you can get good plant growth I would do 50% water changes at least once per week or more frequently to get that down to about 0.1ppm or lower. Generally 50% water changes once a week is a good thing to do. Apply fertilizer and GH booster after the water change. Any attempt to resolve your problem right now by adjusting lighting will not be effective. You need to resolve your nutrient deficiencies issues first.

using root tabs will help but it would be even better to use them with a liquid fertilizer. As to the acid buffer and alkaline buffer I would not use them. Instead I would put a couple sea shells in your filter. These are a solid form of KH. They will counteract any acid that may form in the water as plant consume nutrients and stabilize your PH at about 7. Sea Shells are not used with CO2 injection. The reason is that CO2 makes the water acidic. The shells will react with that acid and cause the GH to continuously increase.


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## SpartanMom (Mar 13, 2018)

Wow ya'll, thank you so much for going through the trouble of breaking it down for me so succinctly. Definitely helps a lot. I will be taking the advice on fertilizing and water changes. I have seen NilocG raved about on this forum and I have seen some really great pictures of the results, so just a little more research is needed. I am trying to keep this tank as low tech as possible as I am terrified of the whole Co2 injection jump.

As for adding tap water, I am not sure about it because this tank has never had it. If I tried it would I still need to use Equilibrium in my RO?

Why would you not use Acid Buffer and Alkaline buffer? 

I have been using Flourish Comprehensive. 

Did a big change today and added the root tabs that I had.(Seachem) Will test in the morning and take some more pictures and try to get them up here tomorrow. Thanx again for you time and input.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

SpartanMom said:


> As for adding tap water, I am not sure about it because this tank has never had it. If I tried it would I still need to use Equilibrium in my RO?
> 
> Why would you not use Acid Buffer and Alkaline buffer?


If you have an RO system, I would say continue to use it. By using it you dictate the water going back into the tank where your tap water can change over time. 

Go grab both of those bottles and throw them in the trash. The best ph is a stable one, don’t try to chemically alter it. 

Not sure if anyone has noted this or not. The tank a year old and there’s a very good chance that the soil you used is nutrient depleted.


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## evilgenius (Nov 15, 2017)

I've seen a marked growth in my 30 gal since the use of NilocG micro & macro ferts. I am however currently battling black hair algae growth. I've introduced Flourish Excel and that seems have started slowing down the bha. I even took a few new baby plants out and put them in a 5 gal I've started cycling to thin things out a little.


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

I'm wondering why you're using RO water. Many, many FW tanks are run with conditioned tap water (or like me, well water) and the plants and fish do just fine. An exception are the folks that have 'liquid rock' (hard) water and often they just dilute 50/50 or so with RO water. With tap water there's typically no need for acid/alkaline buffers! 
Depending on the hardness of your tap water, you might still benefit from Equilibrium. (I add a tsp of Equilibrium following each water change).

I have the finnex planted+ 24/7 and am running it in 24/7 mode from 6am - midnight and my plants are doing just fine.

Your water changes are really not aggressive. A 50% weekly water change is beneficial.

Since your tank is a year in, the soil is likely long depleted so the addition of root tabs for [just] heavy root feeders should help some. Flourish comp is good but you might want to adjust the amount and/or test some other ferts like Easy Green or Thrive (and there are other dry ferts that many on this forum like quite well).

Good luck and tank on!


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## SpartanMom (Mar 13, 2018)

Nlewis said:


> If you have an RO system, I would say continue to use it. By using it you dictate the water going back into the tank where your tap water can change over time.
> 
> Go grab both of those bottles and throw them in the trash. The best ph is a stable one, don’t try to chemically alter it.
> 
> ...


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

SpartanMom said:


> Nlewis said:
> 
> 
> > If you have an RO system, I would say continue to use it. By using it you dictate the water going back into the tank where your tap water can change over time.
> ...


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## SpartanMom (Mar 13, 2018)

No, Im sorry to say that I havent tested my tap water. I do have gh/kh test kit. I'm on city water.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

SpartanMom said:


> No, Im sorry to say that I havent tested my tap water. I do have gh/kh test kit. I'm on city water.


Ok test your gh/kh from the tap. You should also be able to pull up a water report from your water provider.


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## SpartanMom (Mar 13, 2018)

Ok, will do. What level should I be looking for? I was told I should be shooting for between 3-5 gh/kh. Im sorry if all of these questions seem stupid, Im just trying to get this right. A little frustrated with my LFS right now cuz it seems like I have been doing things wrong all along.


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

SpartanMom said:


> @*sfsamm*
> My Finnex is set on the 24/7 setting and I turn it on early am ( EST) for three hours with a short siesta period then back on. The lights are very dim for the first part of the photoperiod.


In 24/7 mode, the unit starts up at 6am feature time (sunrise) and slowly ramps up to midday daylight with the maximum brightness at 3pm, then it ramps down to sunset/moonlight. Doing what you're doing (resetting back to 6am), your plants will never see sufficient light! If you want to run the way you have been, you need to have it on max for the 6hr photo period. In 24/7 mode, you need to let it run it's full cycle at least from feature 6am until feature 3pm+.
As I mentioned in a previous post, in my 60g (24" deep), I run 24/7 mode. On a timer that's on at 6am, off at midnight.


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## SpartanMom (Mar 13, 2018)

Tested my tap..
GH- 4
KH - 3

THe ph is high though. Knowing this, do you think I should start doing an RO/tap mix?


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

SpartanMom said:


> Tested my tap..
> GH- 4
> KH - 3
> 
> THe ph is high though. Knowing this, do you think I should start doing an RO/tap mix?


Your water is fine. I would still add equilibrium to get the gh up around 6.


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## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2010)

This sounds about as complicated as keeping a Reef Tank . LOL


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

> Your water is fine. I would still add equilibrium to get the gh up around 6.


I would also recommend you still use equilibrium. The GH test doesn't tell you anything about how much calcium and magnesium is in the water. In some places the GH reading is entirely due to calcium in the water with little to know magnesium which is bad. The same GH reading can also be generated by a lot of magnesium and little calcium which is also bad. Some people have symptoms of calcium or magnesium deficiency even though there water has a GH about 2 times your level.

ideally we would measure calcium and magnesium levels separately. Unfortunately there are not many such kits on the market and sometimes they are only for salt water tanks.

When I first suggested mixing tap with RO I was thinking your tap water was hard and had a lot of minerals in it which might help. However your tap water is soft so there isn't a lot of mineral content in it. However water with a GH of 4 often needs a GH booster and fertilizer to get good results. So you can use your tap water if you want but you still will likely need Equilibrium and a good fertilizer. 



> Ok, so no Acid or Alkaline buffer. What about Equilibrium? I am using RO because I didn't want to risk tap water and I use those to buffer because that is what was suggested by "The Plant Lady" at my LFS. I don't have an RO system. I buy my water from them. It's a reasonable price so I don't mind. But I guess Im going to have to get another bucket. LOL


The PH and KH have to be applied frequently because they typically don't last long. If you miss a dose the you PH may change. 

The method of placing sea shells in the tank works better. Doesn't require you to do anything, The shells can last years, and they cost a lot lessMy tank PH stay between 6.5 and 7 which is a good range for a low tech tank.


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## SpartanMom (Mar 13, 2018)

Surf said:


> The method of placing sea shells in the tank works better. Doesn't require you to do anything, The shells can last years, and they cost a lot lessMy tank PH stay between 6.5 and 7 which is a good range for a low tech tank.



Where should I source the shells from? I live at the beach, is that an option? Any particular type of shell, oyster, clam, etc? Should they go into the tank itself or into the filter along with the other media?

Bump: After everyone's awesome advice. I have gone ahead and ordered the NilocG root tabs. Im going to continue to use the Flourish, since the bottle is damn near full. And Excel. Just a couple more questions though... Should I start doing the flourish 3x a week instead of two and what about Excel? Thank you all for being so patient with me. I just really want to get this right... I love to watch things grow and I hate that I am not being a very good plant mommy.


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## jaz419 (Jan 21, 2018)

SpartanMom said:


> Where should I source the shells from? I live at the beach, is that an option? Any particular type of shell, oyster, clam, etc? Should they go into the tank itself or into the filter along with the other media?
> 
> Bump: After everyone's awesome advice. I have gone ahead and ordered the NilocG root tabs. Im going to continue to use the Flourish, since the bottle is damn near full. And Excel. Just a couple more questions though... Should I start doing the flourish 3x a week instead of two and what about Excel? Thank you all for being so patient with me. I just really want to get this right... I love to watch things grow and I hate that I am not being a very good plant mommy.



I still think that you will need to supplement either dry or liquid macros (NPK). I'm not sure the root tabs will get that job done effectively, although they will help, it's just not the best way to get NPK into the water column. The flourish comprehensive can still be used in addition. 




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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

> Where should I source the shells from? I live at the beach, is that an option? Any particular type of shell, oyster, clam, etc? Should they go into the tank itself or into the filter along with the other media?


any type of shell will work. They are all primarily calcium carbonate. Crushed coral is also calcium carbonate. It doesn't matter what type of shell. Yes you can collect them from the beach. Just boil them before putting them in the tank to kill any parasites or bacteria. Best place to put them is in the filter where you have a lot of water flow. However if you want to use them as a decoration in the tank that will also work.


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

> Im going to continue to use the Flourish, since the bottle is damn near full. And Excel. Just a couple more questions though... Should I start doing the flourish 3x a week instead of two and what about Excel? Thank you all for being so patient with me.


Yes you can do that but due to the very low level of the nutrients in it I would try the manufactures recommended dose or more but once every day. Or you can get thrive and dose that a the manufactures recommendation and then add the flourish. I think Thrive plus flourish I think that would be the better option for consuming your excess fertilizer. Although you would have to play with the mix of fertilizers to get a good mix.


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