# LED regrets



## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

IWANNAGOFAST said:


> Ok. so I know i'm eating my own words here since i've been such a huge supporter of LEDs and such in the past few months. But I'm having some regrets about my set up.
> 
> I'm running 24 cree xp-g cool whites with meanwell dimmable drivers with 65 degree optics, and 8 royal blue crees with no optics.
> 
> ...


There's plenty of people using LED fixtures with great results so it's more than likely something your doing, not the LED fixture. I've gone through the same question with t5's when I first got them (first couple months), but soon realized it was my error not the light. As long as the wave lengths of light are usable by the plants, it's not a problem. 

However, that does not support the fact that the cool white LED's may be supporting algae by having too much of one piece of the visual light spectrum.


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## O2surplus (Jan 31, 2010)

I've had LED lighting over my tank for nearly 2 years now, and have run into the same issues. The thing is though- The problems that I've had are the same ones that I struggled with prior to switching to leds. I know for a fact that leds will grow plants just as well as other types of lighting, as I've seen lush growth with nearly non existent algae for months on end, and then the algae comes back around. The Algae problem has to be due to some sort of nutrient imbalance that goes unnoticed and uncorrected. I've tested my tank water when the growth was good and found nitrate hovering around 20 ppm and phosphate at .25ppm. Later on- as the algae reared it's ugly head, nitrate levels had dropped to 2ppm and phosphate was not measurable. I try to dose nutrients- Macro&Micro on a regular schedule now, but even then the results vary. I'm keeping my leds and I'll continue to struggle with the plants- I look forward to those short lived times when everything just seems to work out and my tank looks awesome. Here's one of those times-


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

IWANNAGOFAST said:


> My stems never look as good as they can be, the middle of the stem seems to rot out pretty quickly. I'm getting some gnarly algae growth too(mostly green hair algae). I dose EI and have good co2, and my light is only running at about 40umols at the substrate...


You are dosing per the EI method - therefore no shortage of any of the basic nutrients.
You have 40 micromols of PAR, which has been proven to be enough to grow almost any plant - therefore no problem with inadequate light.
You have good CO2 - hmmm, considering just how difficult it is to dial in an appropriate level of CO2, and have it be available to all plants in the tank, this is probably the problem. Maybe you should try slowly, over several days, increasing the bubble rate a little, to see if the plants react favorably. If so, you very likely have inadequate CO2 for the amount of plant mass you have and the amount of light you have. You could also verify that the water circulation throughout the tank is good, and the water surface is pretty well covered with ripples.


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

IWANNAGOFAST said:


> Ok. so I know i'm eating my own words here since i've been such a huge supporter of LEDs and such in the past few months. But I'm having some regrets about my set up.
> 
> I'm running 24 cree xp-g cool whites with meanwell dimmable drivers with 65 degree optics, and 8 royal blue crees with no optics.
> 
> ...


I cannot comment on why this is occurring, but a lot of the reef guys have switched back to T5s due to a number of factors: unpleasant coloration [Kelvin rating] when compared to T5/MH, poor or bleached color growth (could be due to focused 40 degree optics) and the fact that LEDs do not output light in various wavelengths (ie. UV is missing).

Check RC, plenty of people ditching their AI Sols, etc.


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

Yeah, I have an AI Sol over my reef and I don't like the color that much. Although I like the blue-actinic look, it's missing a lot of the warm spectrum too.


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

Hoppy said:


> You are dosing per the EI method - therefore no shortage of any of the basic nutrients.
> You have 40 micromols of PAR, which has been proven to be enough to grow almost any plant - therefore no problem with inadequate light.
> You have good CO2 - hmmm, considering just how difficult it is to dial in an appropriate level of CO2, and have it be available to all plants in the tank, this is probably the problem. Maybe you should try slowly, over several days, increasing the bubble rate a little, to see if the plants react favorably. If so, you very likely have inadequate CO2 for the amount of plant mass you have and the amount of light you have. You could also verify that the water circulation throughout the tank is good, and the water surface is pretty well covered with ripples.


I'm running 2 ehiem filters, a 2236 and a pro3e, and there's a koralia 425gph that is directly above my diffuser to blow the bubbles around.

I'll look into other issues too but for the life of me, I can't think of anything other than the light that could be causing these issues.


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## demonr6 (Mar 14, 2011)

I was using a 10W LED floodlamp on my nano and it worked great. No complaints. Granted it is on a much smaller scale but it was hung 18" above the water line and had to penetrate 7" to the sub. 










You can see it was a good ways up, not as close as it should have been considering how weak it was but again, no alage and great growth.


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## Rich Conley (Jun 10, 2008)

Raul-7 said:


> I cannot comment on why this is occurring, but a lot of the reef guys have switched back to T5s due to a number of factors: unpleasant coloration [Kelvin rating] when compared to T5/MH, poor or bleached color growth (could be due to focused 40 degree optics) and the fact that LEDs do not output light in various wavelengths (ie. UV is missing).
> 
> Check RC, plenty of people ditching their AI Sols, etc.


 
Most of the people ditching LEDs in the reef world were early adopters who bought fixtures that simply don't put out nearly enough PAR to grow reef corals. 

That isn't a problem here.


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

Rich Conley said:


> Most of the people ditching LEDs in the reef world were early adopters who bought fixtures that simply don't put out nearly enough PAR to grow reef corals.
> 
> That isn't a problem here.


No, the posts I read involved recent adopters. 

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2108055&highlight=sol

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2070551&highlight=led+regret

A lot more posts can be found that resemble the thread above.


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## Storm (Aug 7, 2011)

O2surplus said:


> I've had LED lighting over my tank for nearly 2 years now, and have run into the same issues. The thing is though- The problems that I've had are the same ones that I struggled with prior to switching to leds. I know for a fact that leds will grow plants just as well as other types of lighting, as I've seen lush growth with nearly non existent algae for months on end, and then the algae comes back around. The Algae problem has to be due to some sort of nutrient imbalance that goes unnoticed and uncorrected. I've tested my tank water when the growth was good and found nitrate hovering around 20 ppm and phosphate at .25ppm. Later on- as the algae reared it's ugly head, nitrate levels had dropped to 2ppm and phosphate was not measurable. I try to dose nutrients- Macro&Micro on a regular schedule now, but even then the results vary. I'm keeping my leds and I'll continue to struggle with the plants- I look forward to those short lived times when everything just seems to work out and my tank looks awesome. Here's one of those times-


This is a very good observation. I've noticed similar things in my LED tanks. Here is my theory: Diana Walstad, in Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, says that light in the blue wavelength tends to break down iron into a nutrient that algae feeds on and promotes algal growth. I'm not sure of the exact chemical process, but if you read the algae section of the book she talks about it.

My theory is: strong blue light from LEDs combined with iron from dosed micros in the water column creates an algae bloom. Things you could do to resolve this - try using only 6500K LEDs that shouldn't produce so much light in the blue spectrum - dose less iron - although that's tough when you have red plants in your tank.

Let us know if turning off the blue LEDs helps at all.


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

that's an interesting idea. I'm going to try to shut off the blue LEDs and see how it fares.


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## moze229 (Dec 10, 2011)

My personal belief about the LED market is that it's still too new to reliably judge whether or not something is going to work the way its intended. There are simply too many variables involved, and not enough consistency between products. Two lights from the same batch, same manufacturer, same factory - different lumens. LEDs are made similar to the way processors are made, but not exactly. They may run a batch of 1000, and the ones that come out the best are driven higher and sold for more. Intel has been doing this with processors for years. I'm referring to the individual LEDs - not the pre-fabbed fixtures.

We also have to think about the numbers of people that are DIYing these. I think most are capable of setting these things up properly, but there are a lot of areas to make mistakes. LED lights aren't necessarily a technology that you setup to either "work" or "not work". There's a lot of wiggle room there.

Being into reefs myself for the past 15 or so years, I haven't tried LEDs and don't plan on it anytime soon. I think that the technology is great, it's just not "dialed-in" enough for me yet. Until I saw this thread, I hadn't heard anything about anyone going back to CF or halide once switching to LED.

If you want the shimmer - it's still halide for me.


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## zachary908 (Feb 12, 2011)

Raul-7 said:


> I cannot comment on why this is occurring, but a lot of the reef guys have switched back to T5s due to a number of factors: unpleasant coloration [Kelvin rating] when compared to T5/MH, poor or bleached color growth (could be due to focused 40 degree optics) and the fact that LEDs do not output light in various wavelengths (ie. UV is missing).
> 
> Check RC, plenty of people ditching their AI Sols, etc.



If you have unpleasent color and poor coral growth than you are using the wrong LED fixture, simple as that... Have those reef guys try out MVAVA or Reefbrite and tell me what they think. roud:

If anything you will get BETTER color and growth...


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## mjproost (Feb 13, 2006)

IWANNAGOFAST said:


> Ok. so I know i'm eating my own words here since i've been such a huge supporter of LEDs and such in the past few months. But I'm having some regrets about my set up.


I am so sorry to see you have these experiences and post this:icon_frow I have built two setups based partly on your DIY projects and some of your advice. Both, IMHO, have been very successful in the short term(7 months or so on one and 5 weeks on the other). THANK YOU!!

I believe that all things in moderated excess is best, including planted aquariums. I absolutely do not want to question the many far more experienced and knowledgeable aquarists who have created this great community and made this so much easier for me. But, maybe 40 micromols of par is not "enough" in all cases? Your issues certainly sound like a light source issue in my limited experience.

I hope this is OK, But here is a PM exchange we had in May:


IWANNAGOFAST said:


> I would not run optics if this was your plan. at 8 inches, you'll be in the 100's for par, way way way WAY too high, even if you're only using a 350ma driver.
> 
> I'd go w/ 2 strings of leds, 3-4 each string if you want to use the 350ma driver. Or, you could do 1 string using a stronger 700ma meanwell driver.
> 
> ...


Well, I ended up building 2 setups on Edges with the 350ma drivers and XR-E's, one with optics(for a friend in June) and one without(mine dry-start 3 months ago and flooded a little over a month ago. IMO, both are doing really well and have no significant algae issues aside from a BGA outbreak I attribute to BGA colonization during the dry-start phase. However, the optic tank has denser lower HC growth and beautiful rotala stems. Both are EI tanks with injected CO2, however I cannot be sure nutrients levels are equal. So, my experience is purely anecdotal, I have no hard data or measurements. 

Is it possible we are underestimating the amount of light required to get the type growth we want? Maybe there a difference between enough light to "grow almost anything" and enough to create the growth we might be looking for?


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## nikonD70s (Apr 6, 2008)

i think its best to stick to T5's or PC's for planted tanks. and LED's for fish only. but i love the shimmering effect the led gives. just bought 2 marineland double led for my altum tank and they make the tank really nice.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

I don't have time to look at the specifics of the particular LED's your using, but I have noticed the spectral curves of a lot of LEDs is much narrower than many of the normal bulbs we use. This is "good" for most of their original purposes, but not great for us, I suspect. 

40 umol is plenty of light. You could even have too much in some areas. 

Co2 is almost always what I suspect. Trying to up it is worth a shot. How is your surface ripple? Oxygenation? I am a firm believer that you need good oxygen levels, too. This is usually underestimated in our tanks.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Raul-7 said:


> I cannot comment on why this is occurring, but a lot of the reef guys have switched back to T5s due to a number of factors: unpleasant coloration [Kelvin rating] when compared to T5/MH, poor or bleached color growth (could be due to focused 40 degree optics) and the fact that LEDs do not output light in various wavelengths (ie. UV is missing).
> 
> Check RC, plenty of people ditching their AI Sols, etc.


Me too, I am a fan of ATI(ain't cheap, but vs ADA, they are much cheaper) and I use less energy vs the LED and the dim controller is awesome.

I do like the shimmering though.

I'm still green with T5 color type of bulbs, I have not tried enough, the PC's, I'm comfy, with HQI, I'm comfy........
I've run quite a few different LED 3 w Cree and a few others......but still not happy.

It'll be awhile.


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

Yeah, the color when I run all my cool whites is about 5500k, which in my eye is too yellow for me, so I threw on the blues, which brings it up to about 8000k. 

I've shut off the blues for now, we'll see how it goes.

I've actually built another fixture for my gf's tank, slightly different than what I've done before. This one has 3 clusters of 3 LEDs, 1 blue, 1 cool white, 1 neutral white, using a dimmable driver/controller, I was able to set the exact color I want. However, this tank is at her apt at school and I haven't been up there in a while so I don't know how things are growing. I'll have to check soon...


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## generalpetres (Sep 28, 2011)

try throwing some red leds in there to see if it might help.


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## Naekuh (Oct 19, 2011)

I have led regrets...

my regrets are i didnt listen to hoppy and went overkill, and ended up with an epic algae bloom on biblical sizes... 

I fixed that... and i have no more regrets... but i have NO PROBLEM growing anything thats high light requirement... 

Then again... if u ask anyone that knows me, they will probably say i am koo koo on LED's.


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

are you running red LEDs or anything other than cool white on yours Naekuh?


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## Naekuh (Oct 19, 2011)

IWANNAGOFAST said:


> are you running red LEDs or anything other than cool white on yours Naekuh?


i tried everything...

I ran the bridgelux cool white.. which are near the cree's... not there but near..

and i ran the 660nm reds, and i ran the 10w arrays..

if u ask me... the 10W arrays are the BEST. Color spectrum falls in 5000-7000k so its not too blue.

They have what in my eyes looks like the closest daylight u can get.... have enough of them, and it looks like the sun is hitting your tank directly. 

The bridgelux give off a slight blue.. which most of u guys are complaining about.. 
In honestly i dont think u need any blue in your array unless its purely for bling, you get enough blue in the spectrum from the cool white.

I decided to pretend to be smarter then hoppy and others and added red... 
660nm.... i realized why they only use it on canibus plants now and not fish tanks... although they may work in a air setup really good... non submerged. 
It attracts hair algae on epic sizes... or in my tank it did... and i tested it with intensity on different led's and kept getting hair algae when i added the red. 

I remember reading... blue light stunts growth on plants... while the red makes them grow longer... Well it makes algae GROW VERY VERY VERY VERY LONG too... lololol.... 

if u guys ask me... the chinese 10W the ones u can get either in circle or square are the BEST... and i will stand by this.. this is why people u see with LED flood lights, aka 10W or higher class, work, and the owners are happy. 

infact, im getting a couple more in and i think this time i may send hoppy one to run though his par meter and give me real numbers, and i bet you hoppy will agree the 10W's are the BEST.


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## prototyp3 (Dec 5, 2007)

Good topic for discussion.

I've also been seeing more and more people admit to being disappointed with their LED lights. I figure it's got to be pretty bad for people to admit their mistake given the hefty investment made.

I think there could be some truth to the limited spectrum theory. I always thought a simple cool whites + royal blue was silly. (no offense to anyone using this sort of arrangement) I understand that it adjusts the color to be more appealing to our eyes, but plants don't care what we think of their light source.

That being said, I'm currently building a 4 channel LED light. I have red, green, and blue, with white channel for extra strength. I'm hoping that mixing these different channels will give both a balanced spectrum and a pleasing look. I'll definitely post once it's completed. I'm guessing I shouldn't sell my T5's or halides just yet..:biggrin:


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## Naekuh (Oct 19, 2011)

u dont need green unless that is for bling.

The reason why plants are greed is to filter out the green light.

Chloraphyl works the best with red.. but that means everything thats a plant algae included will flourish from red light.


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## prototyp3 (Dec 5, 2007)

The thinking is that green offsets the blue and red to make a more visually appealing "white" light.


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## Naekuh (Oct 19, 2011)

prototyp3 said:


> The thinking is that green offsets the blue and red to make a more visually appealing "white" light.


which is why i said a 10W is the best cuz u get the closest to daylight:










vs the standard blueish tint u guys are accustomed to:


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

Yeah, I like the 10w floodlight color too, I'm using it on my refugium in my reef. Hard to make a good looking fixture though using those. I wonder if they're dimmable, hook them up to a controller and get that sunrise/sunset feature.


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## Naekuh (Oct 19, 2011)

IWANNAGOFAST said:


> Yeah, I like the 10w floodlight color too, I'm using it on my refugium in my reef. Hard to make a good looking fixture though using those. I wonder if they're dimmable, hook them up to a controller and get that sunrise/sunset feature.


meanwell 48P can handle up to 4 of them and is dimable... however u need to DIY it and u cant use the flood light unless ur going to gut it for the LED only. 

You pair with a PWM driver... (this is what i got) ~ 60 dollars
http://www.rapidled.com/servlet/the-159/DDC-dsh-01-PWM-Controller/Detail









And u get your daylight...

how does that dimmer work? 
It has preset memory options... 12 hour cycle... 8 hour cycle.. 6 hour cycle... and the intensity at which each cycle should hit. 

When the timer goes on, the last preset cycle starts... in my case its the 12 hours... so 1 hour for it to get full intensity, and 1 hour to shut off after the cycle is complete, and the timer i have then turns the unit off until the next day where my cycle starts up again.


My only real grief is i spent way more $$$ then i should playing with LED's to get a final product... but i love playing with TOYS, so i dont really consider it a grief as it killed a lot of time which i wanted killed.


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## prototyp3 (Dec 5, 2007)

You're welcome to rate the 10w as the "best" but everyone has different tastes. I prefer the flexibility to adjust things, that's why I went for the multi channel route.


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

We're setting up a tank at my LFS, and we'll be using the Kessil Amazon sun LED, it's supposed to be able to provide a full spectrum of light. Will be interesting to see how it looks and how well it grows.


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## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

Raul-7 said:


> No, the posts I read involved recent adopters.
> 
> http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2108055&highlight=sol
> 
> ...


Alot of the bleaching occurs also because people were impatient and would put too much light onto the corals as they were adjusting to the more intense light. Some corals can take up to 3-4 weeks to adjust to an increase in light. Disappointed with their impatience, they decided to blame LED's.

Wave lengths are wave lengths 

And BTW, there are now UV spectrum leds


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## Naekuh (Oct 19, 2011)

fishykid1 said:


> Alot of the bleaching occurs also because people were impatient and would put too much light onto the corals as they were adjusting to the more intense light. Some corals can take up to 3-4 weeks to adjust to an increase in light. Disappointed with their impatience, they decided to blame LED's.
> 
> Wave lengths are wave lengths
> 
> And BTW, there are now UV spectrum leds


OHHHHHH i have so much experience in this..

when you nuke your reef tank with light... roughly double of what it was, you will photo bleach corals... 

they go into shock from the uber light, and typically would require at least 2 weeks to get acclimated to them. 

I had this happened on MH... and people who are blaming the LED's are stupid, because bleached corals means u didnt acclimate, and you have way more light then you originally had without acclimating the corals up.


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## Rockhoe14er (Jan 19, 2011)

I just wanted to add that i started using LED's about 7 months ago and love it. I have cool white and royal blue and i do admit that i get some bleaching of color. However, my plants are growing really well at the moment. I was having problems when i had my par above 45mmols because i couldn't seem to get enough co2 in my tank to prevent algae. Ever since i dropped it down to 45 things have been growing amazing. I am getting good reds (not excellent because my rotala sunset doesn't look as amazing as it does in some pictures). I just wanted to say that the growth seems good and much better than my T5HO fixture that i had set up before and the light distribution is 100x better.

here is a picture of my tank with the T5HO fixture it has a 10,000k and a 5,000k bulb and the led has 12 cool white and 2 royal blue. I also wanted to point out that the T5HO is right on top of the tank and the LED fixture is 24 inches above the tank.


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## zergling (May 16, 2007)

I personally get a headache when I watch those LED-lit reef tanks for more than a minute. I think my slightly-far-sighted eyes have a hard time focusing on things when the shimmer effect is on full blast.

With that said, I do have a Archaea 30cm 3W LED light on my 12" cube that has been doing well so far. Growth is slow as you would expect from any low-light tank, but it's my first low-light that's actually looking half-decent LOL, so I'm very happy with that.


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## Storm (Aug 7, 2011)

zergling said:


> I personally get a headache when I watch those LED-lit reef tanks for more than a minute. I think my slightly-far-sighted eyes have a hard time focusing on things when the shimmer effect is on full blast.
> 
> With that said, I do have a Archaea 30cm 3W LED light on my 12" cube that has been doing well so far. Growth is slow as you would expect from any low-light tank, but it's my first low-light that's actually looking half-decent LOL, so I'm very happy with that.


I actually love low light LED tanks and I'm tempted to try one of those Archaea lights. One of my favorite tanks that I have right now is a Fluval spec with a bunch of java fern and a marsilea minuta carpet. It grows so slow you wouldn't even notice it grows at all unless you saw it 6 months ago, but it never needs any maintenance other than water changes and the plants look beautiful - never any algae.


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## Naekuh (Oct 19, 2011)

zergling said:


> I personally get a headache when I watch those LED-lit reef tanks for more than a minute. I think my slightly-far-sighted eyes have a hard time focusing on things *when the shimmer effect is on full blast*.


lol to think some people actually pay a lot of money to get shimmer.

well shimmer is mostly to blame on the water movement on top of the tank as its refracting the LED.

you dont get much on a CF because the CF itself strobes... its strobes faster then your eyes can pick it up, but it does strobe...

Which leads a whole new topic of its own.... as if the strobe vs a constant light source like a LED actually helps... because u dont see the sun strobing.


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## zergling (May 16, 2007)

Storm said:


> I actually love low light LED tanks and I'm tempted to try one of those Archaea lights. One of my favorite tanks that I have right now is a Fluval spec with a bunch of java fern and a marsilea minuta carpet. It grows so slow you wouldn't even notice it grows at all unless you saw it 6 months ago, but it never needs any maintenance other than water changes and the plants look beautiful - never any algae.


The Archaea light on my cube is nice, but it does have a little too much blue, I think -- as I can see the pond snails having a slight blue tint to them LOL !



Naekuh said:


> lol to think some people actually pay a lot of money to get shimmer.
> 
> well shimmer is mostly to blame on the water movement on top of the tank as its refracting the LED.
> 
> ...


Well, the shimmer, believe it or not, actually gives it a more natural feel, IMHO. I've snorkeled a few times, and it is fascinating in clear sky conditions. Unfortunately for me, it hurts my eyes if I stare too long, so it's something I'm not planning on having on my OWN tanks.


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

fishykid1 said:


> Alot of the bleaching occurs also because people were impatient and would put too much light onto the corals as they were adjusting to the more intense light. Some corals can take up to 3-4 weeks to adjust to an increase in light. Disappointed with their impatience, they decided to blame LED's.
> 
> Wave lengths are wave lengths
> 
> And BTW, there are now UV spectrum leds


The complaints were beyond the bleaching that resulted from too much intensity. Some of the people indicated that their colors changed colors or didn't look as nice.

Wavelengths are wavelengths, but LEDs do not emit light at all spectra or at output which resembles natural sunlight.










Note the reduce output in the UV range and abnormally large output in the blue spectrum.


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## zergling (May 16, 2007)

Raul-7 said:


> The complaints were beyond the bleaching that resulted from too much intensity. Some of the people indicated that their colors changed colors or didn't look as nice.
> 
> Wavelengths are wavelengths, but LEDs do not emit light at all spectra or at output which resembles natural sunlight.
> 
> ...


....and if I'm remembering correctly, there was a big thread that our very own scolley started at reefcentral regarding the resulting colors/aesthetics of certain LED bulb combinations.


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## prototyp3 (Dec 5, 2007)

zergling said:


> I personally get a headache when I watch those LED-lit reef tanks for more than a minute.


I agree with this. 
Yeah surface agitation comes into play, but it seems to be exaggeratedly worse when the LEDs are equally spaced out along the tank. You get all these little micro shimmers fighting with one another. I'm a fan of clustering the LEDs tight, as it tends to keep the shimmer more relaxed. Added bonus of clustering is the color blending better.

---

A lot of what's being discussed isn't just bleaching of corals. So many of the posts are by well informed hobbyists who acclimated their tanks to the new lights properly.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

If someone were to buy a FishNeedIt T5HO light and use it for a few months on their planted tank, then report that T5HO lighting is not good for planted tanks, would we take them seriously? I hope not. And, the same is true of LED lighting. LED lighting isn't available as an assembly that has clearly defined parameters, well designed for a planted tank, unless you just get lucky and find one that is. If you DIY a LED light you will likely have a steep learning curve as you figure out how to get the kind of light you want. That doesn't mean LED lighting is not good for planted tanks.


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

That's true Hoppy. 

I did a major trim and tried to manually remove as much algae as possible, sprayed everything down with excel. I turned off the blue LEDs too.


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## Naekuh (Oct 19, 2011)

Hoppy said:


> *If you DIY a LED light you will likely have a steep learning curve as you figure out how to get the kind of light you want.* That doesn't mean LED lighting is not good for planted tanks.


i can say AMEN x 100 to this statement...

That being said... i dont think i can ever go back to conventional lighting. 

All my tanks will be a DIY LED setup, and will stay LED.


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

Hoppy said:


> If someone were to buy a FishNeedIt T5HO light and use it for a few months on their planted tank, then report that T5HO lighting is not good for planted tanks, would we take them seriously? I hope not. And, the same is true of LED lighting. LED lighting isn't available as an assembly that has clearly defined parameters, well designed for a planted tank, unless you just get lucky and find one that is. If you DIY a LED light you will likely have a steep learning curve as you figure out how to get the kind of light you want. That doesn't mean LED lighting is not good for planted tanks.


Who was arguing against LEDs for planted tanks? I certainly hope my posts didn't give that impression. In fact I eagerly await Kessil's 'Amazon Sun' fixture to be released. 

My post are merely what I came across from researching LED lighting over the past month and a half. Most of what I read concludes that their spectra output is not on par with T5's or not yet at least.


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## Salem (Jan 17, 2011)

i have 4 t5ho and one double bright led i initaly added the led because at the time my main light a 4bulb t5 fixture broke down ( dam you finnex )leaving me with 2 t5 bilbs only the led didnt seem to have any effect besides keeping the plants growing very slowly but growing after adding another 2 bilb t5 and bringing up my CO2 the plants went wild and truly took over the tank i have fully broken down and moved the tank about 3 times now and the 4 t5 bulbs and 2 rows of white one of blue led continue to being me the sometimes rediculas over-groth very little alge issues i dont think ill ever run leds on there own but in conjunction with t5s they do very well


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Salem said:


> i dont think ill ever run leds on there own but in conjunction with t5s they do very well


If someone put an 8 watt T5NO light over their 55 gallon tank, and reported that it was too dim to do any good, and they would never want to use T5 lights for a planted tank, would you agree with that? That is essentially what you are saying.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Hoppy said:


> If someone put an 8 watt T5NO light over their 55 gallon tank, and reported that it was too dim to do any good, and they would never want to use T5 lights for a planted tank, would you agree with that? That is essentially what you are saying.


:thumbsup:
I'm happier with my ATI's.
Done did both.

But when folks think LED's are super effective..........they are not really that much better than ATI watt/watt and I like the colors better with T5's, at least till proven otherwise and convinced more, much more.........

I know they have done well with Reef tanks, but...there's a MUCH larger market and focus there. And many of the hoods are designed for those, not planted systems.

I have 3w x 14(2 of these) for sale LED's and the pair 60 W pendents.


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## Pen3 (Jan 2, 2007)

i wish i could keep my Lumen Max HQI pendants with ADA and ADA-NAG bulbs on my Cube. Its just the heat thats impossible in summer and not to mention electricity. I am still venturing in this whole LED thing and iam on my 3rd setup.


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

ok so on my girlfriend's tank that I set up for her, things are growing in spectacularly, it's been about 5 months now. No weird algae, no melting plants. With her light, I built light clusters instead of strips, so I did 3 clusters of 3 LEDs, 1 cool white, 1 warm white and 1 blue. The warm and cool white provide the spectrum and the blues add the coolness (I like an 6500k to 8000k color)

I set up my 60f using the LED light I built for my riparium, 11 cool white 10,000k bridgelux leds.. nothing was growing in at all, and I was getting some strange grey snot algae all over the HC... I just added a 21watt t5no grow light (pinkish bulb) with no reflectors, so the light level is fairly low, so we'll see how it goes.


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

I've added a lot more LEDs to my main fixture









So total LEDs are as follows
24 cree xp-g cool white
4 xp-e royal blue (350ma)
4 bridgelux royal blue (350ma)
4 bridgelux pink
4 bridgelux 4500k white
4 bridgelux 2700k white

the pinks and warm whites are ran off a aquastyleonline.com driver, maxed out at 700ma but they're probably running at about 500ma. I've dimmed the xp-g's down to about 400ma, but these have optics on them. 

I haven't been able to measure par yet but in the few days that I've had them on, the tank does look noticeably better, no other changes other than the lighting.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Let's see a FTS Tu.


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

I wouldn't touch LEDs with a ten foot poll.



> I believe that all things in moderated excess is best, including planted aquariums. I absolutely do not want to question the many far more experienced and knowledgeable aquarists who have created this great community and made this so much easier for me. But, maybe 40 micromols of par is not "enough" in all cases? Your issues certainly sound like a light source issue in my limited experience.


I agree. I don't know why 40 microlols is the magic number, and I don't know how you can accurately measure LEDs: LEDs are way to variable. They are all made in China and none are made specifically for the planted tank. I will stick with T5s. I am never to poor to afford a new light bulb every year that I know works the way it is supposed to.



> I just added a 21watt t5no grow light (pinkish bulb) with no reflectors, so the light level is fairly low, so we'll see how it goes.


Why go with a T5 NO when a T5 HO gives you so much more light?


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## samamorgan (Dec 31, 2011)

Robert H said:


> I wouldn't touch LEDs with a ten foot poll.


Thats a lot of votes, i wouldnt want to touch anything with a poll that long either.



> I agree. I don't know why 40 microlols is the magic number, and I don't know how you can accurately measure LEDs: LEDs are way to variable. They are all made in China and none are made specifically for the planted tank. I will stick with T5s. I am never to poor to afford a new light bulb every year that I know works the way it is supposed to.


The number comes from experience. You can accurately measure ANY light source with a PAR meter. LEDs are no more variable than a T5 or halide setup. There are also plenty of LEDs manufactured specifically for planted tanks. And the cost savings is threefold: bulb changes, energy cost, and heat (heat only presents a problem in MH setups mostly).

Just some FYI for you: 90% of every product you personally use for your aquarium originates in China. Fact of life for nearly everything we buy.



> Why go with a T5 NO when a T5 HO gives you so much more light?


Because it's unnecessary. Light is only an issue if you have too much or way too little. Everything can be grown, and grown well in medium light. I and many others have experienced this first hand. This is like saying "why get a gardenhose for your garden when a firehose works so much better?"

Please dont trash talk LEDs when you don't understand them and have no experience with them. People come on this forum and read stuff like that and start assuming this (not so)fledgling lightsource isn't viable. We're likely to see LEDs take over the entire lighting industry in the future, just like DVDs trumped the VHS, and now streaming media is trumping the DVD (slowly).


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

There is nothing magic about 40 micromols of PAR. But, it has been well demonstrated that with about that light level, and good CO2, you can grow whatever you want to grow, but it grows slower than with higher light intensity. Unless you are growing plants to sell a slower growth rate is an advantage - less pruning, aquascapes last longer, less worries about excessive plant mass in the tank, etc. And, I agree with Samamorgan about the ease of measuring the PAR no matter what type of lights you use.

It isn't necessary to use fluorescent bulbs designed for planted tanks either. The difference between them and ordinary fluorescent bulbs, as far as results with plants go, is minimal, and certainly not worth paying 3X higher prices for.


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

Robert H said:


> Why go with a T5 NO when a T5 HO gives you so much more light?


I had it on hand, I wasn't about to go out and buy a new t5ho light just for an experiment.


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

speedie408 said:


> Let's see a FTS Tu.


You got it Nick!










and here is a shot that shows the LEDs a little better


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

The new additions make your tank pop dude! Nice job! Now go make me one! I'll hook you up with some shrimp


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

lol man for the cost of this light i could've bought a 4 bulb tek fixture and be done with it!


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## samamorgan (Dec 31, 2011)

And be done with your plants you mean, after the algae decimated everything.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

IWANNAGOFAST said:


> lol man for the cost of this light i could've bought a 4 bulb tek fixture and be done with it!


But the shimmer.... lol 

I dropped by Neptunes today... saw those Kessels on the show tank. How much do one of those run bro?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Or an ATI and kick the LED's butt.roud:

Ian was right along time ago about them(and good rimless tanks), but the controller was the deal clincher for me. 

I have some LED's I can make you deal on if you want to add to this system Nick.

28 10,000 and 8000K on 2 rails.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

samamorgan said:


> And be done with your plants you mean, after the algae decimated everything.


I have this much on my 120 Gallon and add 50% to that number in umols.

No algae issues after a year.


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

I think the kessils are 260 a piece. Pricey for not having any controllability but so far the growth is good. Time will tell though. 

If you've seen that big ol tank that's been sitting on the ground, we're planning on running 3 kessils over that one.


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## astrosag (Sep 3, 2010)

Completely unrelated but just dropping in to say its good to see some old timers still posting making sure the science of this hobby is sound 

Been in and out of TPT over the past year.


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## Schneeball (Dec 28, 2011)

Here is my DIY LED setup on my 100 gallon tank after 2 months running 15 Cree XML T6 on a 700ma Inventronics driver burning a whopping 32 watts going through my Kill A Watt meter. I added C02 and lite ferts a few weeks ago and things have been steadily improving.


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## they call me bruce (Feb 13, 2011)

Im running 6500k t5ho's 8" over the top and its a heavy planted tank i only ei dose pherts
once every 4 days and iron once a week i do pump co2 pretty lime colored and its been running perfect for 8 months now--lights are on 11 hours--
Im on a led build anf
d i thought a equal mix of neutral and cool would get me to 6500k am i wrong?
ive never seen anywhere a place that names a led 6500k


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## samamorgan (Dec 31, 2011)

Most manufacturers work on a chromatic scale, and not color temperature, bruce. So the LEDs you would get should fall under a range of white shades, mostly indistinguishable by the human eye.

The only manufacturer i've seen selling LED fixtures in the 6500k range are the Ecoxotic with their panorama freshwater fixtures. Most are 8000k.


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## Schneeball (Dec 28, 2011)

they call me bruce said:


> Im running 6500k t5ho's 8" over the top and its a heavy planted tank i only ei dose pherts
> once every 4 days and iron once a week i do pump co2 pretty lime colored and its been running perfect for 8 months now--lights are on 11 hours--
> Im on a led build anf
> d i thought a equal mix of neutral and cool would get me to 6500k am i wrong?
> ive never seen anywhere a place that names a led 6500k


Cree give min-max temperature ratings. For XML they give.
Cool white 5,000k-8,300k
Neutral white 3,700k-5,000k

http://www.cree.com/products/pdf/XLampXM-L.pdf
I don't know about others but I'm running all cool white.


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## salmon (Apr 14, 2011)

they call me bruce said:


> Im running 6500k t5ho's 8" over the top and its a heavy planted tank i only ei dose pherts
> once every 4 days and iron once a week i do pump co2 pretty lime colored and its been running perfect for 8 months now--lights are on 11 hours--
> Im on a led build anf
> d i thought a equal mix of neutral and cool would get me to 6500k am i wrong?
> ive never seen anywhere a place that names a led 6500k


Just DIY'd one myself using 2/1 ratio of cools to neutral XML's, looks great. when looking at the leds themselves you can tell the neutrals from the cools, but when over the tank, they blend and you cant see a diff. it's more eye appealing than my midday 6500k t5h0, but the plants will tell the real story.

To try to answer your question though, when you start mixing, it's kind of a shot in the dark as to what kelvin rating you'll end up with, so many variables with LEDs....but in short yes it should put you in that ballpark.


************

OP, have the new additions made a noticeable difference yet or still to early to tell? It looks really good. the scape is looking great too btw roud:


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

it's still too early to tell. I haven't had a chance to trim out the algae yet so i'm not sure if it's new growth or just the same. 

Probably in 2 weeks I'll have a good answer for you all


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## they call me bruce (Feb 13, 2011)

salmon &Schneeball does a putting them on a dimmable driver with a pot make a difference in k rating?


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

they call me bruce said:


> salmon &Schneeball does a putting them on a dimmable driver with a pot make a difference in k rating?


No, a dimmable driver just lets you control output. Has nothing to do with the K rating of the leds.

You could (and I have) run different color leds on different drivers allowing you to fine tune the color you want. The fixture I'm working on at the moment goes from about 3,000K to 20,000K by playing with different color leds running on separate drivers. 

No one really mentions it but instead of just say going with all cool white leds, you get a much better result using many different colors. 

When you think about the color spectrum analysis from a florescent tube, it has many little peaks of different wave lengths. Leds on the other hand have a very narrow peak in a specific wavelength. To get the full spectrum you'd get from a t-5 or Mh you need to use a hand full of different color leds. 

For an idea of what I'm talking about I have not only royal blue and cool white leds in my reef fixture but also have some neutral white, deep red, violet, cyan, and blue.


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## they call me bruce (Feb 13, 2011)

very good that makes sense ill have to pull up the spectrum plants get from the sun and overlay it with led,s to see what combo works best thanks


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