# Clay-Based Substrates?



## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Eco Complete isn't clay-based. It's basalt - essentially crushed lava rock.

But there are dozens of clay-based substrates available in North America and even more in Europe. That's just actual aquarium substrates, not including other products that we use in planted aquaria like Turface, Safe T Sorb, cat litter, bonsai soils, hydroponic mediums, et al. 

CaribSea, Seachem, Fluval, JBA, Dennerle, Landen, ADA, Marfied/UNS, Mars, UP, Brightwell, SL, Sera, et al. All of those companies have multiple clay-based options. There are dozens of other companies that are also in the market. Creating your own may be fun to try but it's like reinventing the wheel. There's an option available for pretty much anything you'd want to accomplish - globally there are more than 100 active/buffering products available. There are even products available that increase alkalinity. Hate to spoil anyone's hopes but definitely do it for fun and not for profit. 

Note that you have to use the report function to get moderator attention.


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## MoreliaViridis (May 19, 2021)

BluCardi said:


> I am looking into creating a active substrate and was wondering how many clay substrates are available. So far I've found...
> 
> Seachem Flourite
> JBL mando
> ...


All aquasoil is basically clay mixed with nutrients(or other soil that contains nutrients) and fired in a ball shape.

And there is other unfamiliar stuffs that bonsai people use.
Akadama is famous one and can be used well in aquarium.
There are some hydroponics stuffs too..

When you look into that kinda stuffs try agriculture and gardening first. Basically all aquatic plant products are derived from there or literally the same thing. 



You can indeed make your own AS and substrate fertilizer(power sand) using commercial fulvic acid, seeweed extract, amino acid, EM and Lactobacillus extract......and whole bunch of other suspicious and stinky stuffs.
















Some guy where I live made his own substrate fertilizer and set up tank using that. 
It took about 3~4 months just sitting out...waiting for bacteria to do their thing.
















The tank looks like this after few months.
Like any other asian tank..No liquid ferts. Only substrate feeding.
Therefore tank is N limited in water column...and maybe tiny bit of editing.
(But N limited plants can actually color up that much.)


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

BluCardi said:


> I am looking into creating a active substrate and was wondering how many clay substrates are available. So far I've found...
> 
> Seachem Flourite
> JBL mando
> ...


Turface and some clay cat litters...
chart..some are more "humus" based though.See #24 and #20..









Cheapest and clay based "I" know of is Turface.
It's light though.
Well cat litter and saf-t-sorb is up there.

Flourite is not high in CEC nor is eco complete
No idea what makes up JBL Mando (clay vs humus) but if stable probably fired clay.
Quick find


> Manado is produced from *a natural raw material (clay)*, which can exhibit slight fluctuations in mineral composition, depending on where it was found. The "magnetic component", which can be traced to iron kernels, occurs in isolated cases, but does not have any harmful effect on tank operation.





> Well cat litter and saf-t-sorb is up there.


added those 2 but composition varys by region and or brand.


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## BluCardi (Dec 29, 2021)

Hey TPT people.

I should make the distinction that I'm looking for aquarium based products. I had settled on soil until recently, when I found several forum posts and videos on social media about the levels of ammonia they leach. ADA leached 8.0ppm in one such test etc.

Could you please post links to the clay based substrates please. That, or post the actual name to the product as a search doesn't seem to bring anything up.

Cheers.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

BluCardi said:


> Hey TPT people.
> 
> I should make the distinction that I'm looking for aquarium based products. I had settled on soil until recently, when I found several forum posts and videos on social media about the levels of ammonia they leach. ADA leached 8.0ppm in one such test etc.
> 
> ...


Well you first have to find "aquarium products" that actually list their ingredients.. Good luck with that.
Awhile ago I tried getting info on Tetra Active from Tetra themselves and they refused to release that info.


> Dear Jeff,
> 
> Thank you for your email.
> 
> Unfortunately we cannot provide you those internal informations.








Tetra Active Aquarium Substrate


Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but I bought this stuff under the impression that it was suitable substrate for aquatic plants? Am I right or does it need more than it says on the package? I rather like the colour so I'm uninclined to cover it up, but I will if that would help...



www.ukaps.org





ADA I believe has a large humus content and clay.


> ADA Amazonia, the _clay_ is baked with peat, NPK and micronutrients...


So far you are left with JBL Mando.

Not to mention what might be available in your country.

It's not "us" but "them".. 

Says a lot.. of nothing..








Scaper's Soil - Dennerle (EN)


Active substrate for freshwater aquaria Scaper’s Soil is an active substrate specially developed for aquariums. It creates a slightly acidic, […]




dennerle.com




Apparently humus and clay.
From the pH drop and various comments.. lots of humus.

You might find something if you expand to Bonsai or Hydroponics..








Akadama - A cheap substrate


Had a bit of fun browsing the APC forum to see if other people had also used Akadama as a substrate. Came across a few so decided to post some links here as it's quite interesting to see other peoples ideas. I've also included the following text to the original article as well. Other peoples...



www.ukaps.org


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Says a lot.. of nothing..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It states "special nutrient formula means that the nutrients primarily benefit the plants rather than the algae"

Oh, tell me more. This should be good


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## BluCardi (Dec 29, 2021)

jeffkrol said:


> Well you first have to find "aquarium products" that actually list their ingredients.. Good luck with that.
> Awhile ago I tried getting info on Tetra Active from Tetra themselves and they refused to release that info.





Asteroid said:


> It states "special nutrient formula means that the nutrients primarily benefit the plants rather than the algae"
> 
> Oh, tell me more. This should be good


So you understand the struggle 😂 

Manado is widely reported to trap air making it hard for plants to root. Leaving me with Seachem Fluorite dark as _the_ clay option.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

BluCardi said:


> So you understand the struggle 😂
> 
> Manado is widely reported to trap air making it hard for plants to root. Leaving me with Seachem Fluorite dark as _the_ clay option.


Flourite dark may be clay but it is not an "active" substrate.
None of the Flourites are afaict.





Understanding flourite black?


So I have a planted tank already . It's just black sanda I've had poor performance with plants mostly stems. I'm looking to try a low tech planted tank with flourite black on my 60l just as a tester and if everything goes well transition it into my 140l. I want more of an understand of how it...



www.ukaps.org





Addendum:
Results:

Organic potting soil sources:
humus - 200
vermiculite - 150
sphagnum peat moss - 100 - 200
fine clay soils - 55-65
2:1 v/v) barkerlite - 24
(1:1 v/v) peat:vermiculite – 141

Tripepi, R. R. (2014). What Is Your Substrate Trying to Tell You Part II.
https://www.extension.uidaho.edu/nursery/Landscape problems/Substrate/CEC and CN ratio.PDF

Common planted tank substrates:
Special Kitty Cat Litter – 27
Seachem Fluorite – 1.7
Seachem Onix – 1.3
Caribsea Tropic Isle Laterite (similar to eco-complete) – 6.7
Calcined Montmorillonite Clay (Safe-T-Sorb) – 30-40
Play Sand - < 0.1

Also:








What is the best substrate for a planted aquarium?


This article talks about cation exchange capacity, and why aquasoils are a superior choice for a substrate in a planted aquarium.




www.aquascapeguide.com


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

BluCardi said:


> I should make the distinction that I'm looking for aquarium based products. I had settled on soil until recently, when I found several forum posts and videos on social media about the levels of ammonia they leach. ADA leached 8.0ppm in one such test etc.


Have you done much reading about ADA's products? Releasing ammonia is a feature, not a bug. One uses it when setting up a new tank in part _because_ of the ammonia release. That's why there's a water change requirement in the beginning. The ammonia is great for kicking things off for plants and means one doesn't have to dose their own ammonia solution to initially cycle a tank. Enriched soil/clay substrates that release ammonia aren't generally meant for use in established systems.



BluCardi said:


> Could you please post links to the clay based substrates please. That, or post the actual name to the product as a search doesn't seem to bring anything up.


Google is your friend in this case.



jeffkrol said:


> No idea what makes up JBL Mando (clay vs humus) but if stable probably fired clay.


It's a calcined clay-based product. Some colors are just straight-up Turface/Safe T Sorb - even sourced from the same places. Other versions of Manado are calcined clay rolled around in peat, humic acid and some really rich soils - they can get pretty messy. 

I've used a few varieties of it a couple times after bringing them home while traveling and am unimpressed. Too many other, cheaper products available in the hobby to pay it much mind. I've got a couple types of it in storage somewhere I should dig out and photograph. I think (could be mistaken but doubt it in this instance) they use leftover bits from other JBL/Dennerle/shrimp product lines and use them with calcined clay to create Manado. It's an interesting idea in theory.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Yea, the jbl stuff " looked" appealing at first.
Not related to the o/ t but some of the hydroponic " soils" are interesting. Granted some are just Turface rebagged.

Anyways no idea if cec clays or not, they don' t "sell" it that way but food for thought.
Haven' t crunched numbers on any of these though.








Amazon.com: wohohoho 2.2lbs Mini Hydroponics Clay Pebbles Balls, Upgraded 3mm-5mm Grey Hydro Ceramsite, Horticultural Plant Top-Dressing Decorative Rocks for Aquaponics, Drainage Water, Purification, Cultivation : Patio, Lawn & Garden


Amazon.com: wohohoho 2.2lbs Mini Hydroponics Clay Pebbles Balls, Upgraded 3mm-5mm Grey Hydro Ceramsite, Horticultural Plant Top-Dressing Decorative Rocks for Aquaponics, Drainage Water, Purification, Cultivation : Patio, Lawn & Garden



www.amazon.com





Unlike saltwater going outside the box is much more available in fw .. 

4 mm round pellets.


> They are pretty small and uniform clay pebbles balls, the traditional LECA is just too big for small plants. They are also much gentler on the roots, it's perfect for more fragile root systems.
> Multi-functions: Place these mini clay pebbles at the bottom of the pots or mix them with the soil for drainage and air, which prevent your plants from rotting and get rid of excess acidity, the gentler protection for the fragile root systems. Place them on the top to keep the soil moist. You can also use them for hydroponic growth.











Amazon.com : UQYES 3-4MM 4.4lbs Blue expanded Clay Pebbles,Gardening ceramsite,Potted Balls for hydroponic Growing,vases Supplies,Bonsai Decor of Orchid and Succulent Plants (leca Balls in Color) : Patio, Lawn & Garden


Amazon.com : UQYES 3-4MM 4.4lbs Blue expanded Clay Pebbles,Gardening ceramsite,Potted Balls for hydroponic Growing,vases Supplies,Bonsai Decor of Orchid and Succulent Plants (leca Balls in Color) : Patio, Lawn & Garden



www.amazon.com


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## BluCardi (Dec 29, 2021)

somewhatshocked said:


> Have you done much reading about ADA's products? Releasing ammonia is a feature, not a bug. One uses it when setting up a new tank in part _because_ of the ammonia release. That's why there's a water change requirement in the beginning. The ammonia is great for kicking things off for plants and means one doesn't have to dose their own ammonia solution to initially cycle a tank. Enriched soil/clay substrates that release ammonia aren't generally meant for use in established systems.


I haven't done a deep dive into my water source but traditionally, ammonia above 0ppm in my aquarium promotes algae. In my setups ammonia is the active ingredient. So obviously when I saw that ADA soil can leach ammonia up to 8ppm... I obviously had to rethink things.

That's not a knock on ADA soil/substrate systems. The conditions just wouldn't be right for my future setup.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

BluCardi said:


> I haven't done a deep dive into my water source but traditionally, ammonia above 0ppm in my aquarium promotes algae. In my setups ammonia is the active ingredient. So obviously when I saw that ADA soil can leach ammonia up to 8ppm... I obviously had to rethink things.
> 
> That's not a knock on ADA soil/substrate systems. The conditions just wouldn't be right for my future setup.


I don't think you quite yet understand how these active substrates function. They release an initial load of ammonia - it's not a forever thing. It's for tank cycling and initial plant growth. Algae doesn't become a problem or millions of us (tens of thousands of us on the forum alone) wouldn't have been using the products for a couple decades now.


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## BluCardi (Dec 29, 2021)

somewhatshocked said:


> I don't think you quite yet understand how these active substrates function. They release an initial load of ammonia - it's not a forever thing. It's for tank cycling and initial plant growth. Algae doesn't become a problem or millions of us (tens of thousands of us on the forum alone) wouldn't have been using the products for a couple decades now.


Truth be told, I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean?

I, and when I say "I" I'm talking specifically about myself. I don't want 8ppm of ammonia in my aquarium introduced via ADA soil. In "my" experience, ammonia above 0ppm for a few days introduces algae. I shudder to think what 8ppm would introduce for a month.

I appreciate that the experience of others may differ.


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## MoreliaViridis (May 19, 2021)

BluCardi said:


> Truth be told, I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean?
> 
> I, and when I say "I" I'm talking specifically about myself. I don't want 8ppm of ammonia in my aquarium introduced via ADA soil. In "my" experience, ammonia above 0ppm for a few days introduces algae. I shudder to think what 8ppm would introduce for a month.
> 
> I appreciate that the experience of others may differ.


Yea thats why you do frequent large% WCs(80+%) for first few weeks.
Ideally before setting up and planting the rest.
It should be written on instructions or sth.
Setting up tank using AS and not doing WC is simply WRONG.

First week is the worst and it quickly recedes.
After about 2~3 months(given that you did regular WCs) leeching is not that much(usually less than 5ppm NO3) and most of that is in form of NO3.
Because when bacteria converts NH4+ attached to AS surface to NO3-, it becomes an anion so soil cannot hold onto...
So after first 1~2 weeks NH4 rarely becomes a problem. 
If you are not using TC plants then even first week NH4 leeching doesn't matter. 
Established plants will happily suck up all that NH4, including sensitive plants...

Ammonia content is...literally why you use soil.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

BluCardi said:


> Truth be told, I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean?
> 
> I, and when I say "I" I'm talking specifically about myself. I don't want 8ppm of ammonia in my aquarium introduced via ADA soil. In "my" experience, ammonia above 0ppm for a few days introduces algae. I shudder to think what 8ppm would introduce for a month.
> 
> I appreciate that the experience of others may differ.


It's not that the experience of others may differ. I just explained how Aqua Soil Amazonia works.

To be a bit more blunt without being a jerk: You're still confused about it how it works and are, for whatever reason, not trying to figure it out. Or that seems to be the case. This is causing your more work than necessary.

Do a bit more than just scratching the surface. Read an ADA product guide or an instruction manual on their website. See how others use the products. Maybe follow a tank journal or two here to see how easy the products are to use. The ammonia is half the reason people use the product. It's why these substrates exist and are so exceptional for growing plants. You'll find that none of what you think happens is actually happening. And the mere presence of ammonia does not cause algae growth.

I'll explain it a bit more.

ADA Aqua Soil doesn't release 8PPM of ammonia for a month. Most of ADA's products don't ever release that much. It sounds like you're potentially reading information from about a decade ago, though, as products have changed a bit. At most, it's a strong release for a week (maybe 5-6PPM), during which you do large water changes. Beneficial bacteria is establishing itself throughout this period - as it would with any other method of cycling.

Water changes are reduced the second week. The third week you may not need water changes. I never change water unless ammonia hits more than 5PPM. Which is a fairly common concentration people use to cycle tanks with any other substrate. After 4 weeks, the tank is usually 'cycled' and ready to go as it would be with any other fishless cycling process. You fully stock the tank at that point because the tank is cycled and you've got a month of plant growth under your belt.

You don't have livestock in your tank during this period. Plants are not harmed. Algae doesn't explode or usually even appear because of water changes. I know this because millions of people use the product. Thousands of them are on this forum and they've documented it for you to read about. I've used it probably 200 times. One of my 20gal longs has been going for over a decade with it. Still buffering. Still growing crypts. Never had an algae issue.



MoreliaViridis said:


> Yea thats why you do frequent large% WCs(80+%) for first few weeks.


Large water changes are generally for the first week. Smaller ones from there on out.



MoreliaViridis said:


> Ideally before setting up and planting the rest.


ADA recommends planting from day one. Most hobbyists plant from the very beginning. I always have. It's been terrific for plants.



MoreliaViridis said:


> After about 2~3 months(given that you did regular WCs) leeching is not that much


Leeching isn't much of a thing with the substrate after the initial 'cycle' period. Especially if a tank is even moderately or lightly planted. The nutrients that remain in the soil are there to be used by plants.


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## MoreliaViridis (May 19, 2021)

somewhatshocked said:


> Large water changes are generally for the first week. Smaller ones from there on out.
> 
> ADA recommends planting from day one. Most hobbyists plant from the very beginning. I always have. It's been terrific for plants.
> 
> Leeching isn't much of a thing with the substrate after the initial 'cycle' period. Especially if a tank is even moderately or lightly planted. The nutrients that remain in the soil are there to be used by plants.


Details might be bit off but its more about general idea. Yanamsayn?

I always have problems with TC in fresh soil. I know there are people who experience the same. If its not TC then I agree 100%.
Somehow for first week plants grow very well at high NH4 without a hint of algae.

I was not including plant uptake when mentioning that.(thats just how I think..) 
Yes it is very moderate so that even lightly planted tanks will constantly hit 0 NO3. Its almost negligible.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

BluCardi said:


> ...snip...
> The 8ppm reading isn't a decade old. It's actually from a hobbyist that I've known for years who recently, in 2022, set up a 180 X 55 X 60 cm aquarium with ADA soil and another who set up a 120p with the same substrate. One missed a couple of water changes in his first week and due to his London UK water source came back to algae everywhere.
> ...snip...
> So when I say " I " don't want anything that introduces ammonia, let alone ammonia at such high levels. I hope you can respect that.


Here's the rub... ADA substrate comes with very specific instructions, and that is to change water daily for the first week, every other day for the second week, 2x in week 3, and then weekly after that. This is to prevent a build up of ammonia that _can_ cause an outbreak. The ADA substrate is meant to bhe used as a part of a system, and without following that system, you can't blame the soil for the algae issues.

If you don't want anything that introduces ammonia, then you really done want a planted tank. All of your livestock will release ammonia, as well as any plants that have dead or dying leaves. what you need is a biofilter capable of handling ammonia, and enough plants to absorb it before it feeds algae.


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## MoreliaViridis (May 19, 2021)

BluCardi said:


> One missed a couple of water changes in his first week and due to his London UK water source came back to algae everywhere.


Water CAN kill humans when consumed in large amount.
But that doesn't mean drinking water is bad.

You should really just stick to ADA AS or similar types...Thats all I can give you.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

In addition to water changes, it should also be noted that ADA recommends using 75% carbon media to start a tank. This helps until the biofilter and plants get up to speed processing toxins. I'm not saying that the ammonia wouldn't be a problem for a smaller subset of setups, but the carbon, combined with the water changes does alleviate many problems in most tanks. Unfortunately many with planted tanks think adding Carbon is the devil, but it really has minimal affect on hi-tech tanks that have sufficient ferts.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

I get all the arguments for specialized soils but something in the darkest corners of my heart just feels more comfortable with an inert substrate. I think there are SO many things I’d do differently if I were starting over, but my choice of Flourite sand is one thing I’d keep.... especially for a low tech tank, it just feels way more predictable and user friendly. Lots of caveats with ADA. ‘It works perfectly!! But you have to not cap it, not crush it, change water, use carbon, watch for depletion, not feed it after midnight, wear a wreath of garlic every time you approach the tank and only plant things with your left hand.’ 😂

I get all these things are not that hard to do and are second nature to anyone who’s been working with the stuff.... but to me it just feels like a big no, whatever the plant benefits. That and the fact that it looks like bunny poop 🐰


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

One thing I won't do is clean up this thread again. But I will send people packing for insulting others - including insulting moderators.

When you lash out at others, you lose the ability to respond. Folks need to deal with whatever frustrations they have in life privately - without taking them out on others here. That kind of behavior is not tolerated.

When you're repeatedly asked to stop a behavior? Stop.

Now, back to the discussion.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

jellopuddinpop said:


> Here's the rub... ADA substrate comes with very specific instructions, and that is to change water daily for the first week, every other day for the second week, 2x in week 3, and then weekly after that. This is to prevent a build up of ammonia that _can_ cause an outbreak. The ADA substrate is meant to bhe used as a part of a system, and without following that system, you can't blame the soil for the algae issues.
> 
> *If you don't want anything that introduces ammonia, then you really done want a planted tank.* All of your livestock will release ammonia, as well as any plants that have dead or dying leaves. what you need is a biofilter capable of handling ammonia, and enough plants to absorb it before it feeds algae.


Thanks for explaining it again, @jellopuddinpop.

There are instructions to be followed and ignoring those instructions - literally about how the substrates work - leads to confusion, apparently.



MoreliaViridis said:


> Water CAN kill humans when consumed in large amount.
> But that doesn't mean drinking water is bad.


100% this.


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## Allentan97 (Jul 1, 2012)

MoreliaViridis said:


> All aquasoil is basically clay mixed with nutrients(or other soil that contains nutrients) and fired in a ball shape.
> 
> And there is other unfamiliar stuffs that bonsai people use.
> Akadama is famous one and can be used well in aquarium.
> ...



Would you please give some more info regarding the DIY power sand? I am highly curious about this


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