# Angelfish in Hard Water?



## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Same process/reasoning that allowed you to narrow down choices to those fish that thrive in hard water should allow you to re-consider the Angelfish.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

My water runs 7.8-8.0 and is very hard. Above the normal color on the test so I can only say more than 300PPM. This part of Texas is on top of massive limestone so the water is used to it. 
I have never seen any problems with raising and breeding angelfish due to water qualities. Problems, yes! Like four fish in a 55 and suddenly being two pairs? I had no more room so stuck in temporary dividers and hung slate for them to lay eggs on. 
So one group laid eggs on the heater and one group on the filter intake. Neither was a good plan and they both failed but not because of the water. 
Go for it and they will do well, if all else is right. 









Angels are great fish and I find they are often very good for swapping to shops due to the difficult shipping they involve. Shops tell me they can sell all I want to breed as shipped angels tend to arrive in bad shape.


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## Bushkill (Feb 15, 2012)

I probably have 700 of the 900G I keep, dedicate to breeding them and I'll readily confess I don't have a clue of the Ph in any of the tanks. But given where I live and the fact that my water comes from a community well, it ain't blackwater material. The vast majority of privately bred angels have adapted to a wider range of Ph than was the norm years ago. The best advice I can give is to seek out a local breeder and go from there. 

If a LFS does buy angels from a private breeder, they'll usually note that. Otherwise they are selling farmed fish from Florida, or Asian wholesalers. As Plantedrich correctly noted, larger angels are notorious bad shippers. Cram a bunch in a bag and hand them to the airlines and you have fish whose time is marked.

There are several breeders in Fla, but none I can recommend more highly than Carol Francis. PM me if you want contact info.


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## Oceangirl (Feb 5, 2013)

florida water is so hard, when fish get tired of swimming they go for a walk! Get some that are local bred, post on the stated section here on planted tank. I have rams and angels in straight tap!! Gold ones too!! They were bred here in florida water!! Try getting some florida bred tap or from your local breeder!!


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## psych (Jan 7, 2013)

I also have hard water and keep two angels in it. None have shown any problems because of the harder water.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Hmm,,
Wonder how's come none of these folks here who report success with breeding their Angelfish in hard water, ain't offering to sell/trade some of their fry to the original poster?
Maybe there is succsess and maybe there ain't.
I would agree that more and more domestic Angelfish (doubtful with the wild ones), are being bred in wider range of water chemistry and I have kept them along with Discus at 12 dgh but the moderately hard water did not allow for many eggs to be viable and when I began to inquire about this with those who breed them, It was suggested that the water may be too hard for males to fertilize the egg's and that to be more successful,,I might consider cutting my tap water of 12dgh with some R/O or rain water and then wean the fry onto straight tap water as they matured over a few week's.
As I was not interested in breeding the fishes but rather for displaying them in my living room tank(s),I did not pursue the effort.
Just sayin,,when considering fishes/cichlids for hard water,, Angelfish are not the first fishes that come to my mind.


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## Bushkill (Feb 15, 2012)

roadmaster said:


> Hmm,,
> Wonder how's come none of these folks here who report success with breeding their Angelfish in hard water, ain't offering to sell/trade some of their fry to the original poster?
> Maybe there is succsess and maybe there ain't.
> I would agree that more and more domestic Angelfish (doubtful with the wild ones), are being bred in wider range of water chemistry and I have kept them along with Discus at 12 dgh but the moderately hard water did not allow for many eggs to be viable and when I began to inquire about this with those who breed them, It was suggested that the water may be too hard for males to fertilize the egg's and that to be more successful,,I might consider cutting my tap water of 12dgh with some R/O or rain water and then wean the fry onto straight tap water as they matured over a few week's.
> ...


Shipping in this goofy weather is a real roll of the dice, couple with the fact that adult angels are never good shippers; they need a lot of water per fish and truly need to go overnight. The cost of that often leaves folks with a case of sticker shock. Knowing there are several quality breeders much closer to home, that suggestion seemed the responsible thing to me.


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## Oceangirl (Feb 5, 2013)

My angels were bred in tap, these guys are only 5 months old. They were bred by my neighbor. The rams are born at a farm that uses local florida water.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Guess one would need to determine what is hard water.
Would also suggest that one not believe everything they hear.
Some folks will sell fishes (online) they claim were bred/ raised in hard water but actually may have been something similar to what I described in previous post where they were actually raised in softer condition's and then weaned onto the harder over a few week's or month's. 
Could also be that the OP who expressed desire for cichlids for hard water has a substrate that is the root of his/her hard water and by swapping it out for something more inert,,he/she would not have as hard of water as they report.
Just sayin ,tap water usually comes with some CO2 content and after allowing it to set for a while ,the CO2 gasses off and the pH would rise even higher than the 8.6 reported which I think would indicate water more suited for African cichlids ,or tanganiykan's.(sp)


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## goodbytes (Aug 18, 2014)

The tap water is indeed 8.6 which is exceptionally high even for Florida but it makes sense in the context of Gainesville geology. Home brewers seem to take pH quite seriously and there's a big community of them here in Gainesville. They apparently had the tap water tested at Ward Labs which is an agricultural laboratory that offers specific services to home brewers as well. There are numerous sources that report a figure of 8.6 but I'll probably put in a call to a local microbrewery to corroborate these figures if they're willing. 

I definitely have some thinking to do but the success stories are inspiring as there are few other commonly available fish that have the striking appearance of Angelfish and even fewer that can be afforded. I may just go with the same thought of trying to streamline the process and fill the tank with assorted Mbuna Cichlids instead of trying to find something more striking. A planted tank with Mbunas is possible and has been done but I'll have to place rocks around the base of the Swords and buy a bunch of rock caves for them. Angelfish sure would be nice though.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Why would one raise angelfish and not offer to sell the poster some? 
Really not too hard to figure that one if you have tried it. I think I mentioned the difficulties of shipping angelfish and that they are highly sought after? Why bother shipping if I can sell all I raise with a simple trip to the shop? 
DUH!!

But then I would also encourage the OP to look at a wider group of cichlids than just the mbuna. There are easier groups of African cichlids who have many of the nice aspects without the ones which can give planted tanks so much trouble. 

An all male tank of haps might be an easier go for starters. Thinking of ones who spend less time on the bottom and under the rocks so that they dig less.


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## neonmkr (May 16, 2008)

If your goal is to keep a planted display tank with angelfish and you don't plan to breed them, then I wouldn't worry about your hard water. My tap water is made to order for africans but my angels are doing quite well in it. I think you'll be much happier with angels in a planted tank than trying to keep mabunas from rescaping your tank for you.


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## CowBoYReX (Nov 30, 2013)

PlantedRich said:


> My water runs 7.8-8.0 and is very hard. Above the normal color on the test so I can only say more than 300PPM. This part of Texas is on top of massive limestone so the water is used to it.
> I have never seen any problems with raising and breeding angelfish due to water qualities. Problems, yes! Like four fish in a 55 and suddenly being two pairs? I had no more room so stuck in temporary dividers and hung slate for them to lay eggs on.
> So one group laid eggs on the heater and one group on the filter intake. Neither was a good plan and they both failed but not because of the water.
> Go for it and they will do well, if all else is right.
> ...


What is that star-like plant? It looks like some stuff growing in my yard


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

I can only answer that question if you promise not to tell!!
This was a tank that I set up on first arrival in Texas. Pre-planted tank? In getting a few angelfish from a local breeder, I saw a nice healthy looking plant in his growout tank and he pulled it out and gave it to me but could only say it was "river plant". 

It grew wonderfully and I got interested in planting again, so I looked for the name.

HYDRILLA- one of the worst and most disgusting plants ever turned loose on a warm water lake. Rough, course leaved, and impossible to get out of the local lakes and rivers where it is a real problem. I no longer have the plant, fish, nor tank. 
But it certainly grew well when I wanted cover for a divider in the tank.


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## CowBoYReX (Nov 30, 2013)

PlantedRich said:


> I can only answer that question if you promise not to tell!!
> This was a tank that I set up on first arrival in Texas. Pre-planted tank? In getting a few angelfish from a local breeder, I saw a nice healthy looking plant in his growout tank and he pulled it out and gave it to me but could only say it was "river plant".
> 
> It grew wonderfully and I got interested in planting again, so I looked for the name.
> ...


Huh, lol I won't say a word. I thought that was more similar to elodea, reckon I'll go have a look. Thank you, and I've had specimens I shouldn't have had too lol


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