# Thumb Down Flourite



## wheeling (May 6, 2013)

I bought a bag of red Flourite and found out that is is very dirty, I mean very dirty! And I donot see the justification for the price and doubt it benifits, despite of many people here claim otherwise. Here is why.

1. It is just crushed shale and slate, both are mud stone, with the latter under higher pressure in the sidimentation process so it is harder and more stable, and basically inert and no benificial to plants. 
2. The shale may have some benifits to plants, it is basically dried mud. But it will slowly dissolve in water, and that is why it is so dirty. You will be better off by using regular gravel plus some dirt from your back yard. It is a lot cheaper. 
3. It is too coarse, up to 1/4 inch in size, and too sharply angled, not good to the root.
4. There is no special treatment to the crushed rock, no additional added benifit, no justification for the high cost. 

The Floramax is basically the same materials, but crushed and graded to a much finer size, and is much cheaper. IMHO, it is much better value.

Other than AS that is specially manufactured substrate for planted tank, all the crushed rock should be treated the same, crushed rock. And they are no better than natural gravle and sand. One exception is crushed and properly graded lava rock. Their porosity has been proven to be benifitial. 

Anyway, Flourite is crushed slate and shale, poorly graded, dirty, and over priced, ordinary substrate, no better than any properly graded oridinary gravel and sand.


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

wheeling said:


> 1. It is just crushed shale and slate, both are mud stone, with the latter under higher pressure in the sidimentation process so it is harder and more stable, and basically inert and no benificial to plants.


It is hardened clay and has a high CEC, unlike sand for example.



wheeling said:


> 2. The shale may have some benifits to plants, it is basically dried mud. But it will slowly dissolve in water, and that is why it is so dirty. You will be better off by using regular gravel plus some dirt from your back yard. It is a lot cheaper.


It does not disolve in water. I am using it for more than one year. It is dirty i did rinse it the first time I used it. Regular gravel does not have CEC, but many people claim have success with gravel. Personally I mix sand and flourite.



wheeling said:


> 3. It is too coarse, up to 1/4 inch in size, and too sharply angled, not good to the root.


My red flourite is 2-3mm in size, I find it the right size but not the best for corydoras fishes.

Michel.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

micheljq said:


> It is hardened clay and has a high CEC, unlike sand for example.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


+one , Flourite is iron enriched clay (flourite red).


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## wheeling (May 6, 2013)

It is not specially treated or anything, just crushed natural rocks. BAsed on my assessment, BTW, I'm a minrologist by training, it is just slate, hard, dense, and inert, mixed with shale, relative soft, and may break down. 

The size I have is just too coarse, and it is too sharp. If you got the right size, good for you. At least they have poor QC from batch to batch.

As far as CEC goes, I just don't see what in there can provide that, not the slate, which is the majority, may be some shale, but limited. Talking about CEC, the flourite stuff is far inferiou that crushed lava, especially red lava, very rich in iron too. 

Can it be used in planted tank, sure. Is it justified for the money, NO!

I know people own it and used it will say otehrwise, but this is just my 2 cents.


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## isellcars (Mar 4, 2012)

I have it my 90g and it's about 3-4" thick. My plants love it and I never fertilize except for the occasional root tab for new plants. 
It is dirty and took me a long time to rinse it but it is worth it. My Cory's and khuli loaches don't seem to mind it either.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

wheeling said:


> It is not specially treated or anything, just crushed natural rocks. BAsed on my assessment, BTW, I'm a minrologist by training, it is just slate, hard, dense, and inert, mixed with shale, relative soft, and may break down.
> 
> The size I have is just too coarse, and it is too sharp. If you got the right size, good for you. At least they have poor QC from batch to batch.
> 
> ...


You can't even spell mineralologist,I have doubt's as to your conclusion's.
Product is calcined clay.


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## nofearengineer (Mar 20, 2013)

I have Flourite over 15 years old in my 46. Never had any problems with it. Plants seem to like it.

P.S. Internet bona fides are pretty much worthless.


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## wheeling (May 6, 2013)

roadmaster said:


> You can't even spell mineralologist,I have doubt's as to your conclusion's.
> Product is calcined clay.


So what, in the rush of things. 
Anyway, you like it, fine. I just don't think it is worth the money, period. I didn't say it is not working, just not justified for the price. That's all. It is too dirty to use.


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## steven p (Jun 22, 2012)

That dust is arguably the best part of the product. I wouldn't rinse it at all if I used it, much like how I use STS. It is a clay product, mostly aluminum.

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/FlouriteRed.html

In the rush of things? You had all the time in the world to compose your rant.

On top of that, you would have known it was dirty if you did any research on the product. Go buy eco-complete if you want something clean and no fuss.


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## wheeling (May 6, 2013)

Don't be fooled by the chemical analysis. It is more important what can dissolve in water, at what rate, not what is in there. Look at a chemical analysis of granite, very balanced, why no one is promote it as plant growth substrate? It is inert.

Agreed on the washing part, the goodies may be in the fine particles. Wash it off, waste money.


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## steven p (Jun 22, 2012)

I don't think that you're going to lose much to the water after the initial leaching. The negative charge of the product grabs ions. Granite lacks this property and for the most part, so does lava rock.


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

Wheeling you sound more like someone who is frustrated and that is against a product or wants to vent. You may find it pricey, you may hate it is your opinion. But, you should not send false information about the product.

But you do not really know what flourite is, first you called this chrushed shale and slate, then you say it is dried mud, non sense is this talking.

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Flourite.html

Flourite® is a specially fracted, stable porous clay gravel for the natural planted aquarium.

We say that after a rinse dirty particles goes out and that it will not cloud water but you do not seem to be in a mood to understand. Wait a couple of days, let the fire in your head goes down, please.

Michel.


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## gSTiTcH (Feb 21, 2013)

Ok, Wheeling....

I don't claim to have any credentials on anything. That said, I'm open to hear your ideas. Surely you've studied the composition of not only the granules, but of the "powder", yes?

Maybe you can help us save money and shut down this excessive exploitation of aquarium hobbyists! How can we recreate the product for less money?


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## wheeling (May 6, 2013)

micheljq said:


> Wheeling you sound more like someone who is frustrated and that is bitching against a product or wants to vent. You may find it pricey, you may hate it is your opinion. But, you should not send false information about the product.
> 
> But you do not really know what flourite is, first you called this chrushed shale and slate, then you say it is dried mud, non sense is this talking.
> 
> ...


 Read my original post, you will know what a dried mud is. Are you a representative of the producer? HOw many rinse I have to do?


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## wheeling (May 6, 2013)

gSTiTcH said:


> Ok, Wheeling....
> 
> I don't claim to have any credentials on anything. That said, I'm open to hear your ideas. Surely you've studied the composition of not only the granules, but of the "powder", yes?
> 
> Maybe you can help us save money and shut down this excessive exploitation of aquarium hobbyists! How can we recreate the product for less money?


You like the product, you use it, that is fine. I don't like it and I'm stuck with it. As a consumer, I have my right to voice my dispointment, I don't think it is worth the money, period. If you have the time to develope a new product, go ahead. I'll give it a first try.


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## isellcars (Mar 4, 2012)

I bought a metal colander and just ran water through it from my water hose for a few minutes then put it in my tank. It was easy to do. It took awhile since I did a little at a time. I think it is great and worth every penny I paid for it. I have about 8 bags in total in my tank. There are cheaper products but you get what you pay for.


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## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

wheeling said:


> 1. It is just crushed shale and slate, both are mud stone, with the latter under higher pressure in the sidimentation process so it is harder and more stable, and basically inert and no benificial to plants.
> 2. The shale may have some benifits to plants, it is basically dried mud. But it will slowly dissolve in water, and that is why it is so dirty. You will be better off by using regular gravel plus some dirt from your back yard. It is a lot cheaper.
> 3. It is too coarse, up to 1/4 inch in size, and too sharply angled, not good to the root.
> 4. There is no special treatment to the crushed rock, no additional added benifit, no justification for the high cost.
> ...


1. I agree with Flourite being relatively inert (it lacks N and P). It does provide some micro nutrients though so its not completely devoid of nutritional benefits. 
2. Sure it might erode over time but in the past 9 months of using the product, i have yet to see an issue with tons of dirt. More or less, its mulm, debris, etc. My tank is very clear, so if you are expecting urself to have a nice cloudy tank flourite is not going to be responsible for that. Maybe initially or when you move plants, but that can happen with any substrate. 
3. I have Pogostemon erecuts and Staurogyne repens in my tank with flourite. Both are aggressive rooters and grow fine. In fact, the P. Erectus roots so fast in a week it will have spread a few inches and you can see it through the glass. 
4. Its called Marketing


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## Algae Beater (Jun 3, 2011)

I have used flourite on many tanks, recently set up a 120 in my store with about 12 bags of it. didn't rinse at all just carefully filled the tank and let the Eheim 2080 do its work. it is a great substrate if you accept its dustiness.


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## wheeling (May 6, 2013)

puopg said:


> 1. I agree with Flourite being relatively inert (it lacks N and P). It does provide some micro nutrients though so its not completely devoid of nutritional benefits.
> 2. Sure it might erode over time but in the past 9 months of using the product, i have yet to see an issue with tons of dirt. More or less, its mulm, debris, etc. My tank is very clear, so if you are expecting urself to have a nice cloudy tank flourite is not going to be responsible for that. Maybe initially or when you move plants, but that can happen with any substrate.
> 3. I have Pogostemon erecuts and Staurogyne repens in my tank with flourite. Both are aggressive rooters and grow fine. In fact, the P. Erectus roots so fast in a week it will have spread a few inches and you can see it through the glass.
> 4. Its called Marketing


I'll show you a photo of what I got tomorrow. Without knowing what it is, I'm sure most people here will be against the use it. Maybe I just got a bad batch. But it is really bad.


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## steven p (Jun 22, 2012)

Go get some fine grain coal slag and you will really know a dirt cloud... After your bacterial colony develops, the particles will become "sticky" with biofilm. It helps hold even the mud on the bottom of a dirted tank together. 

If you have dust issues, let your filter do work over night or kill all the current, let the "problem dust" settle out and siphon it away, refill carefully.

I've dumped quarts of dry fired clay products into running tanks and everything settles out in a few hours. You will be ok. 

If it's that bad, scoop it up and sell it on craigslist or something, then go get some alley gravel buddy...


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## Black Hills Tj (Jul 19, 2008)

After reading this thread, the only conclusion that I feel confident in expressing is that your lack of proper spelling gives your statements zero credibility.


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## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

wheeling said:


> I'll show you a photo of what I got tomorrow. Without knowing what it is, I'm sure most people here will be against the use it. Maybe I just got a bad batch. But it is really bad.


Yea bad batches can happen. A local member recently had a bad batch of Aquasoil. So thats not beyond the realm of possibilities. Show me!


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## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

Black Hills Tj said:


> After reading this thread, the only conclusion that I feel confident in expressing is that your lack of proper spelling gives your statements zero credibility.


Hey let's be respectful. This guy probably just had a bad experience. I know my first time with flourite I did not rinse and man that was a nightmare to deal with. Once i rinsed it like 10 times, it was much better. I still grow plants fine in it. Also I grow BBA but thats not cuz substrate.


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## lochaber (Jan 23, 2012)

So, I'm kinda curious as to what methods you used to tell this product is crushed shale/slate as opposed to calcined clay?

As to the pricing, I don't think it's really that much more then the bags of traditional epoxy-colored gravel, and at least the color on flourite looks more natural (IMHO), and won't flake off.

If it's an old bag, or it had been handled a lot, that may increase the amount of fines in there, it's been a while since I've handled new flourite, but it wasn't especially dirty from what I remember.


Anyways, yeah, if you don't like it, that's completely understandable, find what works for you. you may even be able to recoup some of your costs and resell it to someone who actually likes the stuff. Mostly I'd just like to hear how you examined/identified it.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

If you don't think the price is justified, get turface pro league. 50 lbs for $15. Calcined clay. Same thing basically.


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## wheeling (May 6, 2013)

Here is an image of the Flourite I got after washing 20+ times. Dirty aside, the material is poorly graded and in bad shape. As you can see, it is up to a penny in size down to very fine, and sharp angular. On top of that, it is flat elongated and not equant in shape. I just can't see how good it is to root development. May be I got a bad batch. At least that is a proof of poor quality control. Buyer beware!


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## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

yup thats flourite all right. Whats wrong with this picture?


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## wheeling (May 6, 2013)

puopg said:


> Hey let's be respectful. This guy probably just had a bad experience. I know my first time with flourite I did not rinse and man that was a nightmare to deal with. Once i rinsed it like 10 times, it was much better. I still grow plants fine in it. Also I grow BBA but thats not cuz substrate.


Thanks for the understanding. Gee, I didn't expect to have such a heated exchange.


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## wheeling (May 6, 2013)

Black Hills Tj said:


> After reading this thread, the only conclusion that I feel confident in expressing is that your lack of proper spelling gives your statements zero credibility.


So what? Who kares water do you sink? This, at lest show how goody a gentlemen you is!


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## CPDzeke (Jan 4, 2013)




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## lochaber (Jan 23, 2012)

wheeling>

Yeah, that's quite a bit more variance in grain size then I've seen in any I've used. It is fairly angular, but I wouldn't say that's necessarily harmful.

I actually know very little (right about nothing...) about how particle shape affects plant root development and uptake of nutrients, but I'd certainly be willing to look at any info that someone presented.

I've had decent results with it in the past, but no where near enough experience to say whether it had a positive effect on plants, or just no effect. I think I remember seeing some pics where someone set up tanks using different substrates, but I can't even remember when I ran across that, let alone where... Flourite did okay, quite a bit better then plain gravel, but not as good as enriched substrates, if I remember correctly.

So, I'm still interested in how you determined what the composition of flourite was.


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## steven p (Jun 22, 2012)

wheeling said:


> So what? Who kares water do you sink? This, at lest show how goody a gentlemen you is!


Dude... What? :eek5:


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## wheeling (May 6, 2013)

lochaber said:


> wheeling>
> 
> Yeah, that's quite a bit more variance in grain size then I've seen in any I've used. It is fairly angular, but I wouldn't say that's necessarily harmful.
> 
> ...


I make a living by identifying rocks. But without the proper tools, I can only ID it based on experience. In any regard, be it natural slate or shale, or fired clay, it is not a very high porosity material. Both slate and shale are not porous. The firing temperature has to be very high for the clay products to be porous. This is not the case. 

Speaking effect of particle size and shape, you do not want the substrate too big, in this case, it is actually nearly 1/2 inch. And you want the particles to be uniform so that they will not be compacted in the tank. What I got is wide range of gradation, more than 10 times in sizes. You also want particles to be rounded and not flat elongated. The Flourite I got is anything but these features of good substrate. 

It is marketed as prime substrate for planted tank, IT IS NOT, IMHO.


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## wheeling (May 6, 2013)

CPDzeke said:


> View attachment 149810


I guess you want to say that AS also has different sizes. That's true, I have it and I know the size and shape. In each bag, it is very uniform and rounded, and much smaller, even for the normal Aqua Soil. 

These photos clearly demonstrated what a prime substrate should look like. Flourite is not.


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## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

wheeling said:


> It is marketed as prime substrate for planted tank, IT IS NOT, IMHO.


Yup, i agree. Flourite is overpriced for what its worth but many people think they need it to grow plants when even something as simple as kitty litter can grow plants perfectly. Substrate additives + water column is more important IMO.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

The first time I used it I had no idea how dirty it would be. I wasn't happy either. I finally gave up rinsing and just used it. Is it worth the money. no. Does it grow plants. yes. So does kitty litter for $5. There are better products out there for the price. The image from post #26 is evidence of poor grading. Of course I've never been a fan of Seachem products. It's all about making a buck for this company IMO. Example, "Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium", to the average person this would mean a complete fertilizer. How many people have you seen that thought the same thing. No respect for a company like this sorry.


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## lochaber (Jan 23, 2012)

wheeling said:


> I make a living by identifying rocks. But without the proper tools, I can only ID it based on experience. In any regard, be it natural slate or shale, or fired clay, it is not a very high porosity material. Both slate and shale are not porous. The firing temperature has to be very high for the clay products to be porous. This is not the case.



Well, this is the second time you've mentioned your expertise, yet you failed to explain how you could identify the composition of flourite. You've directly contradicted the assertion that flourite is calcined clay previously in this thread. Now you seem to be admitting that it may be clay, but can't be any good because of....?

I can understand if you are unhappy with it, or it didn't meet your expectations, that happens to everyone. Go to your local fish club, or post an add on craigslist or something and sell the flourite to someone who actually likes it, and then buy ADA aquasoil or something (I don't think they are even in the same category - Flourite is inert, and just provides CEC; Aquasoil has a high organic content, and leaches ammonia initially, and needs to be refreshed/replaced periodically) that you actually like/want.

I don't quite get why you are so upset about this, and your claims of expertise without explaining your methods aren't helping you either. Their is an abundance of well trained, educated, and experienced folk on this forum, and in this community. Many have access to research facilities and equipment. I'm not trying to say you aren't a geologist or anything, but people would be more likely to take your claims seriously if you explained how you came to your conclusions, instead of just stating your profession.


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## wheeling (May 6, 2013)

lochaber said:


> Well, this is the second time you've mentioned your expertise, yet you failed to explain how you could identify the composition of flourite. You've directly contradicted the assertion that flourite is calcined clay previously in this thread. Now you seem to be admitting that it may be clay, but can't be any good because of....?


Are you working for Seachem? Why do you care so much how I idnetify it? The gradation and shape of the product disqualify it as a prime substrate, regardless of what it is.

Now if you want to know how I identified it, prequalify yourself first. 

Do you know what is clay? What is shale? What is slate? And what is their relationship? What is calcined clay?


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Keep it friendly folks. Everyone has an opinion, and that opinion may be expressed. You may disagree with each other, but this does not mean it has to get personal.
*
If the bickering does not stop, this thread will be closed.*


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## Black Hills Tj (Jul 19, 2008)

wheeling said:


> Are you working for Seachem? Why do you care so much how I idnetify it? The gradation and shape of the product disqualify it as a prime substrate, regardless of what it is.
> 
> Now if you want to know how I identified it, prequalify yourself first.
> 
> Do you know what is clay? What is shale? What is slate? And what is their relationship? What is calcined clay?


Avoid questions much?

I wouldnt think that someone who claims to have a background in such a closely related field would have a problem explaining their methods.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

I for one don't care for the cost/reward of the product. That's my opinion. To be honest, the OP has endured enough bashing to warrant not explaining themselves. A friendly exchange of opinions and information usually yields better results than a heated argument. Again, just my opinion but I would like to keep the thread open and learn more about the actual product rather than the manufacturer's claims.


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## ssteve (Apr 20, 2013)

I used flourite in my first tank. It is indeed dirty however once I did a few water changes and allowed the particles to settle there were no more problems. 

The sharp edges of flourite do not bother the roots and runners of my plants at all. If anything I might prefer the somewhat larger particle size of fluorite to get a bit of circulation to the roots. I will say that your photo of fluorite is much more variable then what I have seen.


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## ryantube (Jan 8, 2012)

Having it in a tanks for 2 years. Gotta say it was super dirty at first but it settled down eventually. The good thing is that it didnt turn to mud **** other soils.


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## aluka (Feb 2, 2013)

I have to say, i love fluorite, i use it in all my tanks =D


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## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

If you are a minrologist then I am a scientician


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Enough with the insults.

This thread is closed.


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