# D-I-S-C-U-S - 6 Cardinal 'rules' for newbies to follow



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

What - Over 100 viewers and no feedback ?
I thought 1 or 2 of you might have chimed in to let me know what I may have missed ?


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## lonnie123 (Aug 22, 2011)

I followed your stickey and this is what i have not including two spawns yes came home from work and got more eggs


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## lonnie123 (Aug 22, 2011)

here is the tank shot pre critters


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Is very good advice.! 
Would only add that these fishes fair better in much warmer water than many other fishes appreciate. So if and when considering placing them with other fishes,,one must choose wisely.
Course ,this would become evident through researching them, but I am surprised at times at tankmates chosen for these fish.


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## prototyp3 (Dec 5, 2007)

Nice summary, thanks for sharing.

While discus are extremely colorful, I never quite understood why people kept them. (outside of breeders that is) Seems like you must make a lot of concessions in order to keep discus "properly." I like my tanks and hobby to fall in the realm of relaxing, not waiting and hand and foot on our finned friends. 

Someone tell me when they breed super soldier discus about half the size with resistance to cold temperatures and ailments. :thumbsup:


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

prototyp3 said:


> Nice summary, thanks for sharing.
> 
> While discus are extremely colorful, I never quite understood why people kept them. (outside of breeders that is) Seems like you must make a lot of concessions in order to keep discus "properly." I like my tanks and hobby to fall in the realm of relaxing, not waiting and hand and foot on our finned friends.
> 
> Someone tell me when they breed super soldier discus about half the size with resistance to cold temperatures and ailments. :thumbsup:


Thanks for your post.
Discus-keeping is in fact very relaxing, and much more satisfying given the challenge of wanting to do it 'right' and succeeding. Yes, a little extra effort is involved, but far from waiting on them hand and foot - no more than any other pet-keeping hobby. 
As to your last sentence, I for one would sure like to know more facts about these super soldier discus - never heard of them and I'm sure it would be a true revelation to me.


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## Daximus (Oct 19, 2011)

discuspaul said:


> What - Over 100 viewers and no feedback ?
> I thought 1 or 2 of you might have chimed in to let me know what I may have missed ?


I read it earlier, lol, good stuff as always. I was gonna say something but I wanted to make sure the air was clear. For a few days talking about discus around here has been like talking politics and religion in a bar. :biggrin:

@ lonnie123

Good looking frisbees you have there! :smile:


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## lonnie123 (Aug 22, 2011)

Daximus said:


> I read it earlier, lol, good stuff as always. I was gonna say something but I wanted to make sure the air was clear. For a few days talking about discus around here has been like talking politics and religion in a bar. :biggrin:
> 
> @ lonnie123
> 
> Good looking frisbees you have there! :smile:


thanks I wanted planted but went with half way so that it is MUCH easier to maintain. and i love my ufos ( unstopable floating objects) have other tanks but these guys keep me mesmerized and often passout watching them


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## akdylpickles (Feb 21, 2011)

What size tank is that? Looks awesome


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

You are so right Daximus - and to add a little more fuel to this rather pleasant discussion fire, I thought I'd throw in a little sidenote to the thread - 

I call it: "Stress" - a major "Poor" factor for discus (and any other fish for that matter)

As most of you know, stress in fish is the prelude to a lot of negatives associated with successful fish-keeping.

Here's a list of "poor" conditions causing stress, leading to a weakening of the immune system, then failing health, and serious problems for your discus (and any other fish):
- Poor water quality and conditions;
- Poor diet;
- Poor choice of numbers to be kept in a given-sized tank - i.e, overcrowding;
- Poor attention to social make-up & compatabilty - e.g. too few discus & bullying result;
- Poor choice of stocking sources for discus ( e.g. lesser quality LFS's);
- Poor research into caring for discus (and any other fish);
- Poor choice of tank size, and size of fish to keep therein;

The list goes on.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

And Lonnie - your tank looks great - keep up the good work - fantastic to have some discus spawns so early in the game !


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The rules are not much different than most rules for various larger fish.




















Both angels and Discus breed in here and have for some years. 

Had the gaudy dinner plates:










Rules?
Heck, they are big old cichlids. 
I have a one I cannot catch in a 350 Gal tank that lives just fine with Malawi rift cichlids.
They tend to get disease and issues due to overfeeding, live food vectors and trying to feed too much without doing good general care.
This is true with many fish only aquarist, this is not just for Discus.

They are quite easy to care for.

Want to try a toughie? Breed and keep Freshwater Florida Pipe fish for more than 2 years.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Fantastic looking tank, Tom.
I'd seen it before and marvel at it. Perfect example of someone well-experienced with both maintaining a superb planted tank, as well as successfully keeping discus - and wilds on top of that. Not too many of you types around !


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## akdylpickles (Feb 21, 2011)

Can you keep discus and angels in a tank together? I remember someone telling me the angels can give discus diseases?


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Angels are immune to a certain parasite that discus can catch.

I believe if you deworm your angels they're safe to mix with discus (Prazipro ect)

Discuspaul, like always enjoying your post, topic, whatever ect.

The easiest way to get high quality fish is through a local breeder or online source. Don't buy without knowing a lot about the seller, as you may get their culls, and that's never good, dying before you get them. When buying from a local breeder, buy the largest you can, and make sure the fish eats. Make sure the fish is active and out in the open, make sure it's ROUND. This will save you a lot of trouble.

Discus are very easy to keep if you're willing to work with their requirements. They deal with a lot of stuff other fish just die from. 

In regards to thinking its very stressful and too much work. It can be a lot of work but 90% of people that get discus knowing the work involved and are willing to put it in there don't think of it as work. It's very relaxing, I've got water changes incredibly stress free, stand by the tank and look at the forum. They're very very rewarding when you can look at your discus and know you raised them up, an they're beautiful.

Most importantly in my mind is when someone who has experience gives you advice, at least consider it, it'll save you a lot of trouble in the future as someone has probably had that exact experience. It frustrates those who try to help when they are ignored.


I probably forgot something, you'll get it all when you do the research!


When I wrote this post I was unaware there was more than what I read, (tapatalk hides things) I second the bare bottom, wasn't willing to say it for fear of confrontation and seeing as I'm already a nuisance I just decided to leave it.

If I repeated anything Paul said its because I didn't know there was more! Consider it a.. Double this is needed thing..?


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## lonnie123 (Aug 22, 2011)

akdylpickles said:


> What size tank is that? Looks awesome


only a 55 gallon with window boxes to hold my dirt and stuff the sword came from florida aquatic with a few wendtii green and some hygrophilia croymbosa from aquariumplants
better pic of my 6


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## nonconductive (Jan 29, 2010)

discus are cichlids, nothing more.


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## TheWonderfulWub (Jan 11, 2012)

nonconductive said:


> discus are cichlids, nothing more.


So you've got plenty of experiences to share with us about keeping discus in 74 degree water and feeding them nothing but flakes, and how yours are 12" in diameter and breeding constantly? Go on, we're waiting.

OT: In my store, I've found the simplest way to keep them healthy is just doing regular water changes. Twice a week I change out 50g out of our 120g display. Their filter gets taken apart and cleaned every other week (got a Fluval FX5 on there for the extra filtration), they get blackworms and bloodworms every morning, and New Life Spectrum pellets in the evening. They're not an impossible fish to keep, but they do require a little more planning and attention to detail than most other fish.


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## nonconductive (Jan 29, 2010)

TheWonderfulWub said:


> So you've got plenty of experiences to share with us about keeping discus in 74 degree water and feeding them nothing but flakes, and how yours are 12" in diameter and breeding constantly? Go on, we're waiting.


actually yes i do. so do others. while i didnt keep them at 74, they were fine at 78. and fine eating flake/pellet once a day, but my goal was not to grow monsters. I just recently sold them.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Paul you should include raising quality discus or raising them properly in your post, not just keeping them alive. Another issue that discus threads have. There's two kinda of discus. Quality and survivors


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## Wicket_lfe (Aug 21, 2008)

nonconductive said:


> actually yes i do. so do others. while i didnt keep them at 74, they were fine at 78. and fine eating flake/pellet once a day, but my goal was not to grow monsters. I just recently sold them.


I've raised them in similar conditions with an arowana and 2 angels. 

Breeding i never attempted and sold them before I moved.


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## Wicket_lfe (Aug 21, 2008)

TWA said:


> Paul you should include raising quality discus or raising them properly in your post, not just keeping them alive. Another issue that discus threads have. There's two kinda of discus. Quality and survivors


 
I don't think its fair to just label them "survivors". I prefer the "Show Quality" vs Non show quality.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Let's play nice, please. I've had to edit a few comments already. Stick to the topic and don't get personal so everyone can benefit from this topic. It's just fish, not worth hard feelings.


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## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

Wicket_lfe said:


> I don't think its fair to just label them "survivors". I prefer the "Show Quality" vs Non show quality.


this is a SHOW quality Discus.. :hihi:


http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?88606-EXTREME-FISH...EXTREME-PRICES

i wish i knew who got them.. we never really found out.. but DANG!!! i am sure they took lots of work.. 

i would call them more like "Show vs Pet" quality


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Warlock said:


> this is a SHOW quality Discus.. :hihi:
> 
> 
> http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?88606-EXTREME-FISH...EXTREME-PRICES
> ...


Woo eating dinner off those plates..


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## oscarsx (Mar 15, 2011)

discus talk makes some people madddd.. ARRGHHH


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## Wicket_lfe (Aug 21, 2008)

Warlock said:


> this is a SHOW quality Discus.. :hihi:
> 
> 
> http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?88606-EXTREME-FISH...EXTREME-PRICES
> ...


Lol, show vs pet sounds good to me.

Can't wait to get back into Discus. I'll probably have to buy a house first though.


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## Da Plant Man (Apr 7, 2010)

akdylpickles said:


> Can you keep discus and angels in a tank together? I remember someone telling me the angels can give discus diseases?


I spent the day with Dick Au (Really nice guy, he has lots of experience that he shares) and he said its fine as long as you get healthy angels and QT both of them.


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## Daximus (Oct 19, 2011)

akdylpickles said:


> Can you keep discus and angels in a tank together? I remember someone telling me the angels can give discus diseases?


I don't know about the diseases, but it would be tough to do this properly. Not impossible, but tough. Ask me how I know. 

It's not that angels and discus fight, it's more a problem of space in my mind. Discus and Angels shouldn't be kept in groups smaller than five in my honest opinion. People never think about it for some reason, but both are schooling fish...just like neons and the like...except they all get huge! So, if you take "my bare minimum" number of five from both groups you end up with ten fish all capable of getting very large. In my mind, a 180 gallon tank to do it properly.

That is your fist hurdle. Tank size. 

Hurdle number two is temp, although that one isn't as crucial. Angels can deal with discus temps. 

Third hurdle is feeding. For what ever reason Angels are super aggressive eaters. I know, I know...discus are pigs, but so are angels. Feed a tank with both fish as I do, the angels get the lion's share every time. I have to make sure I feed my stray discus off to the side once in a while. Looks like seven Dobermans and a Chihuahua all trying to eat out of the same bowl, lol. 

Is it doable...sure, but it would be expensive and cumbersome.


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## Da Plant Man (Apr 7, 2010)

And I like these 'hi-fin' or 'long fin' discus


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## Da Plant Man (Apr 7, 2010)

The easiest way to feed discus and angelfish is to have different levels of feeding. Repashy and flake is a good mix, if your discus only eat blackworms, you can use the blackworm feeder and repashy or some kind of slow sinking pellet.


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## Bushkill (Feb 15, 2012)

Getting back to the heart of the matter: Can some folks share what they feed and how they feed? The feeding routine, basically. Knowing juveniles and adults bring different issues to the plate, info on both would be a good thing to share.


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## TheWonderfulWub (Jan 11, 2012)

My juveniles dash to the top of the tank to catch their worms as they drift down, while my adults seem content to wait for them to hit the bottom so they can blow them off with a puff of water and eat them then. Neither will eat pellets until they hit the bottom of the tank, however.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

When mine were juveniles I fed them 3-4 times a day with bloodworms and blackworms then depending on when I was hope they get tetrabits whenever I walked by the tank. 

Just really feed as much as you can whenever you can. They'll eat a lot, so they require a ton of water changes.


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## discusonly (Mar 28, 2010)

Bushkill said:


> Getting back to the heart of the matter: Can some folks share what they feed and how they feed? The feeding routine, basically. Knowing juveniles and adults bring different issues to the plate, info on both would be a good thing to share.


In a 2 months period, I was able to get from egg-->2" plus discus. This was a Pigeon blood strain. Some strains grow faster than others.

I used the following list of food with 6-8 times feeding a day.

BBS
Beef & seafood mix
Frozen Beefheart
Angels Plus hatchery flakes
Angels Plus earthworm
Angels Plus Frys Starter #1 and #2
Angels Plus growth flakes
Spirulina Flakes
Kens BH Flakes

Now they don't grow at that rate after the first 3 months. By 6 months, they were nice and thick 4" discus.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

discuspaul said:


> Fantastic looking tank, Tom.
> I'd seen it before and marvel at it. Perfect example of someone well-experienced with both maintaining a superb planted tank, as well as successfully keeping discus - and wilds on top of that. Not too many of you types around !


Well, the tank did a few things that challenges typical Discus dogma, but , I had have a bad history with dogma in general.

The O2 and CO2 are critically monitored.
Since the water is entirely RO, and remade, we can be pretty safe with the pH/KH relationship also.

They are watched carefully, and it's roughly around 45ppm that the balance works best for CO2 and Discus large show quality adults. the behavior is weird much about this range.

Temps are in the 82-84F range, in bare bottom grow out tanks, 88F seems good and at least 10 fish in a 55-75 gal tank, pair of sponge filters etc.
I like frozen bloodworms and mysids, and live brine. Breeders here in the SF area are quite good and have used this same method, provide high grade fish etc.

I know a lot about them because of clients, not because I actually really like them, I'm much more into Altums. But, that client is doing well and has not needed to call me back since. I'd rather have the client care for the tank well. 

Then you get nice looking tanks.
And, healthier fish etc.

While many fish will survive rather tough conditions neglectful hobbyists put them through, the rules for discus are not much different than what rules should be for all fish, you will have better growth and much less incidence of disease. I do not view those aquarium chores as unneeded.

Just good old fashion work that makes a nice looking tank for full of happy fish. This same thing applies equally to planted tanks also, look at ADA's tanks, they get similar attention and water changes. So planted tanks and Discus really are a good match and you can provide nice feeding areas in the scape.

The 2x a week 50-60% water change and then dose after is great for plants. Discus like it too. Plants mop up any NH4. Where most discus only folks fail is when they use CO2 gas in their foray into planted tanks.

But that is also true with plant folks as well, even myself. CO2 is the toughest thing to master and dial in correctly. Once done though, it's a dang nice tank and easy, but stay on top of things.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

BTW, 99% of the ADA tanks lack Discus.
He has a few, but very few.


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## TheWonderfulWub (Jan 11, 2012)

plantbrain said:


> BTW, 99% of the ADA tanks lack Discus.
> He has a few, but very few.


I think that's less because he actually dislikes discus, and more because he wants the focus to be on the plants, not the huge beautiful fish inside the aquarium with them.


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## WendyRob (Feb 9, 2012)

Paul, can you please tell us how you spot a stunted juvi? I have breeders emailing me pics right now, and though I trust they are good breeders, I'd like to know. Seems like there are a lot of folks on simplydiscus who label a fish as stunted easily...How do I spot this? :help:


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## ObeytheFish (Feb 27, 2012)

I think it would be the eyes. 
Stunted Discus would have rather large eyes compared to their body


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

It's the eyes and the shape. Mostly eyes though, it's hard to describe, but if you google stunted discus you'll see way too many pictures of stunted discus. Is this an online or local breeder?


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## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

WendyRob said:


> Paul, can you please tell us how you spot a stunted juvi? I have breeders emailing me pics right now, and though I trust they are good breeders, I'd like to know. Seems like there are a lot of folks on simplydiscus who label a fish as stunted easily...How do I spot this? :help:





ObeytheFish said:


> I think it would be the eyes.
> Stunted Discus would have rather large eyes compared to their body





TWA said:


> It's the eyes and the shape. Mostly eyes though, it's hard to describe, but if you google stunted discus you'll see way too many pictures of stunted discus. Is this an online or local breeder?


THE BIBLE of what NOT to Buy 
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?46982-What-not-to-buy


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I would have referenced that but I hate trying to find links with tapatalk! Great resource though


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

WendyRob said:


> Paul, can you please tell us how you spot a stunted juvi? I have breeders emailing me pics right now, and though I trust they are good breeders, I'd like to know. Seems like there are a lot of folks on simplydiscus who label a fish as stunted easily...How do I spot this? :help:


As the others have said, Wendy, the biggest tell-tale is the eyes.
In a stunted discus you would not be able to see anymore room, from top of the head to bottom of the face (chin), than 3 eyes would fit vertically into the head, one on top of the other. In a normally developed discus, of a reasonable size, say 3' to 4' or more, you could readily fit 4, 5, 6, or even 7 eyes from top to bottom. Follow me?

However, there are times when that doesn't hold up well, and you can be fooled - for example, some breeders may tell you, when asked, that the age of the fish is quite a bit younger than it really is, in order to disguise that it may be a runt, or else stunted.

A very young discus, say 2" or so, may only have room to fit about 3 eyes, but that doesn't mean it's stunted - it would likely be only approx. 2 months old and still be growing out normally.
If that discus were 5 months old or more, it would definitely be a runt, either that or stunted, and the seller may be tempted to lie and tell you it was only 2 months old so you may not think it was stunted.

As a very general rule of thumb, a healthy, well-fed discus, kept under proper conditions, will likely grow about an inch a month for the first 4 or 5 months or so of it's life. So if you see a 3.75" discus that is said to be about 4 months old, and the eye to head ratio is about 5 eyes, then you could be comfortable believing it's a normal sized fish, and not stunted. After 5 months or so, discus growth generally slows down significantly.

Hope this helps. Pardon the length of my explanation.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I always keep the cream and sell the culls, so like most folks, you get the dregs, not the cream. Best stuff always stays with the breeder.
So you need to be careful picking the fish out.


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## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

What about Wild Discus that usually comes in little larger than the size of your palm? Granted you need to quarantine a couple of months, do you still need to grow them out before putting in a display tank? How old would these be?


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## WendyRob (Feb 9, 2012)

Paul, that was a very good way to explain it thank you. Unfortunately, I believe one of my current discus is stunted. Does he have any chance of living out a full life as a funny-looking, small discus? Or are stunted discus usually goners in a short period of time?


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Stunted discus will live fine usually, they'll just be small an sometimes odd shaped. Lifespan is pretty similar.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Unfortunately ShortFin, your question is almost impossible to answer properly in any feasible way. To my knowledge, there is no sure way of determining (even very inaccurately), the age of a wild discus that is the size of your palm (is that a large hand or a small one - lol). It could be 6 months old and it could be 2 years old. The people who caught it don't know, and nobody else does either, or ever will.

But if the size of your palm is 4" diameter or larger, then there should be no need to try growing them out any larger before putting them in a display tank. By that, I gather you mean a planted tank ?


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

WendyRob said:


> Paul, that was a very good way to explain it thank you. Unfortunately, I believe one of my current discus is stunted. Does he have any chance of living out a full life as a funny-looking, small discus? Or are stunted discus usually goners in a short period of time?


Yes, as TWA pointed out, it can remain very healthy, live out a normal life - and be a joy to you as well.


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## WendyRob (Feb 9, 2012)

discuspaul said:


> Yes, as TWA pointed out, it can remain very healthy, live out a normal life - and be a joy to you as well.


 Oh, he already is! He eats out of my hand...:icon_smil


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Hand feeding is pretty enjoyable/neat they learn to "trust you" I had a female that when I would put my finger in the tank she would come up and let me "pet" her. She would never swim away or anything unless I moved fast.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

discuspaul said:


> Unfortunately ShortFin, your question is almost impossible to answer properly in any feasible way. To my knowledge, there is no sure way of determining (even very inaccurately), the age of a wild discus that is the size of your palm (is that a large hand or a small one - lol). It could be 6 months old and it could be 2 years old. The people who caught it don't know, and nobody else does either, or ever will.
> 
> But if the size of your palm is 4" diameter or larger, then there should be no need to try growing them out any larger before putting them in a display tank. By that, I gather you mean a planted tank ?


P.S. The only way you could fairly accurately know the age of wild fish is if you knew they were caught when a very young size - say less than 2" (babies really), and then been grown out in captivity up to palm size.


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## WendyRob (Feb 9, 2012)

How about discus raised with hormones? Is there anything you can see in these fish to tell that's how they were raised?


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## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

haha, the size of my palm is around 4". And yes I meant planted display tank.

I have not seen wild babies being offer before. Altums yes, but not Discus. All of them come in size large.

I would think that the age/size of wilds would be comparable to power growing the domestic ones. There should be plentiful food in the river system for them to achieve maximum growth. Plus no stunting due to hormones or pecking order.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Color at a very very young age. Much earlier than color should be there. If you see a small discus with adult coloring, it's probably hormones.
Many pet stores etc get these because they sell better.

This might contribute to the whole discus being hard to raise because!

Hormone discus often do not last long, the hormones cause damage to kidneys and liver as well as make the fish infertile (all of these are in MOST cases) 

I believe the only indicator is the showing of mature color at a young age.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

ShortFin said:


> haha, the size of my palm is around 4". And yes I meant planted display tank.
> 
> I have not seen wild babies being offer before. Altums yes, but not Discus. All of them come in size large.
> 
> I would think that the age/size of wilds would be comparable to power growing the domestic ones. There should be plentiful food in the river system for them to achieve maximum growth. Plus no stunting due to hormones or pecking order.


You haven't seen wild 'babies' being offered before because of their much lesser value, and because the demand for them is not there.
The discus trappers are only interested in making a good buck, so they trap larger fish, where of course the demand and the $$ are.

And yes, your analogy is probably correct. A 2" wild discus is likely around 2 months old, same as domestic, so if caught then, and raised to 4" in captivity, it would very likely be 4-5 months old at that point, if properly cared for.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

WendyRob said:


> How about discus raised with hormones? Is there anything you can see in these fish to tell that's how they were raised?


Yes, once again as TWA said, coloration is the key.
Full, mature coloration in most domestic discus is generally not achieved until they reach more than 4" in size, to 5" or more, whereas when you see a 3" fish (presumably around 3 months of age) with what seems to be full adult coloration, as well as markings, for that particular strain, then it almost surely has been hormone- raised.
(Those little guys have been taking 'steroids' - lol)


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## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

getting back to raising domestic.....

Going for maximum size discus here......assumed I followed your advise and get the smallest recommended size at 3" and raising them in a BB tank, how big should they get before transferring them to a decorated tank?


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

If you're going for maximum size from the greatest number of fish (usually 6" to 7" - although a small percentage can get a lot larger), then theoretically they really should remain in BB until they reach that size, i.e. 6" or more.
If not necessarily looking for optimum/maximum size, you could readily place them in a planted environment when they get to over 4", say around 4.5" - Keeping in mind that if you do that, a lesser number, or percentage, of them will reach that 6" + size than the previous example.
The larger the fish when put into planted, the better chance it has of reaching greater size.
The smaller the discus when placed into a planted environment, generally the more risks of some becoming stunted (although there's nothing really wrong with that, imho), and the higher the odds of a greater number not reaching anything near optimum, or maximum, size. 
There is ample enough experiences by discus-keepers to clearly show that the ratio of larger discus resulting from any given lot, or litter, will be much higher when grown out in a bb tank vs. the same number from the same lot grown out in a planted tank.
I've got to stop being so long-winded - you people understand without detailed explanations, I'm sure - LOL !


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

BTW - I'm sort of a living testimony to my statement above. First let me explain:
I dislike BB tanks with a passion (a personal preference) - I have pretty much always kept (notice I didn't say 'raised') discus in planted tanks, knowing full well from the get-go that I would not have many large discus resulting from that, and that I would even have some discus becoming 'stunted', or shall we say, their growth being very limited, notwithstanding my best, most meticulous, efforts at maintaining the highest quality water conditions that I could.
That's ok by me - I have never aspired to grow out monster, show quality discus. Just want to enjoy what I have. I prefer discus to be no more than about 5"or so.

I'll post a link to my tank later - a 70+ gal. low-tech planted tank.
I originally got a dozen fish I believe it was, in 3 different lots a couple of weeks apart, at around the 3" size, or a touch smaller. I have since sold a few of them over time, and am now down to 8. The pics were taken a couple of months after I got them. You will see them below.
Now, you do the math, it's around 5 months since I took the pics, and today, several of the Red Snake Skins are over 5.5" and still growing, albeit slowly. The 2 remaining Flamingos that I have are barely over 3.75" - obviously stunted. Keep in mind that genetics play a big part here also, not just tank conditions.
Here's my tank in late Sept. last year:
http://s1105.photobucket.com/albums/h357/discuspaul/Sept2011
Hope that provides you with some form of perspective.


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## Brian Mc (Feb 9, 2012)

Well I bred and kept discus for many years and I have to wholeheartedly agree with everything you have said here Paul and thanks for sharing this info with the planted community.

I have also seen some dispersions cast around this forum at the hardcore discus people and the simplydiscus forum and was unhappy to see it. The people on the discus forum know what works for discus, just as the people here know what works for plants. Some even know both. :icon_wink

I was part of the original discus-L email list before the www and also the first discus forum DBWS back when we finally got the web. Discus keeping was much more difficult before we got the web and could finally share info among enthusiasts easily. The common methods discus people use now were developed at that time from that initial sharing and have been refined further through the years.

Anybody can keep a discus alive and even breed them but good luck growing them out to the size of the one in my avatar (look at the eye), it is just not easily done. Ask my wife. Sure you can take a good size discus and put it in a planted tank, even community tank and keep it healthy with good water quality and food. But they will not live as long as they would have in a bare bottom tank. Just speaking from experience with hundreds of them.

Back on the old DBWS forum we had a grizzly old cat named Teddy J from Australia who kept a killer planted display tank in his home and rotated his favorite discus' from his fishroom through it for a few weeks at a time and then back into the bare bottom they go. I always thought that was the ideal way to do it and did the same myself.



TWA said:


> There's two kinda of discus. Quality and survivors


^^^ Truer words were never spoken.

***edit:
Was working on the tank here thinking about the good old days lol and realized that I forgot to mention that that you were discussing angels and discus together, the common disease that everyone is thinking of that angels pass to discus are capillaria worms which the angels are not immune to but can sustain a low level infection much easier or be a carrier. They can also pass hex, gill flukes, and many other things which do not bother them a bit but will quickly infect a stressed discus. Discus not stressed? Maybe you won't have a problem. If you intend to keep them together the safest thing to do is not only quarantine the angels but also prophylactically treat them for everything. i.e. prazi, metro (in food), flubenol or panacur, the works. Well not all at the same time lol. Again just speaking from my experiences with these fish, I don't really care what you do with yours. :biggrin:


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## ZLogic (Aug 7, 2011)

> No need to use RO water or adopt any other procedures that would tend to complicate what should be a simple start to your discus launch.


I thought discus required low ph and soft water?


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Many thanks for your comments and words of wisdom, Brian.
You've obviously been around discus for a while and know what it takes to make things work, along with what doesn't work.
Good to hear of experiences like yours - I'm a little long in the tooth too, when it comes to fish-keeping and discus, and I'm still learning something new almost every day.
Thanks again for posting - you've added an extra element to what I've been trying to say on this rather long thread.
I just hope some people are getting something beneficial out of it - that's all.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

ZLogic said:


> I thought discus required low ph and soft water?


Domestic discus can be in any water provided it is stable. Breeder buddy of mine raises his fry in straight waste water from his RO. Ph of 8.5-9.0 and TDS of 600-700 

Wilds on the other hand will need soft low ph water.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

By the way this is a nice thread. No arguing, just people reading, absorbing the knowledge, and posting questions knowing they will be answered correctly. 

Let's not make it sour, blah!


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

ZLogic said:


> I thought discus required low ph and soft water?


Nah - a little misinformation - Discus do very well in pH from 5.5, up to over 8.0, so long as it's relatively stable - i.e. no rapid, almost immediate significant swings on a daily basis.
They live in relatively soft water in the wild, but domestic discus (and even wilds) have been habituated to do quite well in harder, more alkaline water. No problem.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Paul should probably quit copying me 

 

Although I didn't know about wilds, I assumed based on the fact it's kind of a sensitive fish, there's a large difference between amazon ph/hardness and our tap ph/hardness

Plus you only know what you've read when you don't own wilds now don't we?!


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## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

ZLogic said:


> I thought discus required low ph and soft water?


all my discus are in/have been in austin tap water for 2 years 

ph don't matter

soft water is really only needed for EGGS to hatch.. then can slowly change over to hard water again


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## Brian Mc (Feb 9, 2012)

I agree TWA, very nice thread. On the water hardness, yes you have to have soft water for eggs to hatch but I found that I got much better growth rates with harder water, fish take in calcium and other minerals directly from the water as well as food. 

I haven't kept a discus in around 7 or 8 years now... one day at a time...Wondering why discus people do all the crazy work they do is fruitless, it is simply an illness. I will always be in recovery and the wife almost lost it when I told her I was going to the NADA show just to look around. :biggrin:


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## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

Brian Mc said:


> I haven't kept a discus in around 7 or 8 years now... one day at a time...Wondering why discus people do all the crazy work they do is fruitless, it is simply an illness. I will always be in recovery and *the wife almost lost it when I told her I was going to the NADA show just to look around.* :biggrin:


:angel::angel::angel::angel::angel::angel:


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I just wanted to say to all you folks who have viewed this thread, but not necessarily chimed in, that I have belonged to over a handful of forums for several years, including simplydiscus.com, and forum.bidka.org (british & international discus-keepers assn.) and my main reason for doing that, seriously & very sincerely, is that I simply want to help newcomers to discus get off on the right foot, and hopefully avoid the many pitfalls that can occur in getting started with this wonderful fish.
For those of you who are interested in discus, and want to give it a try, or for those newbies experiencing some frustration with discus, this is my invitation to... not hesitate to PM me at any time with any questions you may have. I'm more than happy to help in any way I can.
Once again, sincerely, this is not in any way meant to be self-serving, but an honest effort to try and serve others.


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## ZLogic (Aug 7, 2011)

Now when you say soft water, how soft are we talking? My tap comes out at 7.4ph and 4kH. I haven't had any problems with fish or plants or algae even so I'm doing something right


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

50-100 TDS for breeding discus. The eggs would be too "hard" otherwise and the sperm could not penetrate, therefor causing most eggs to be infertile.

Hardness is a useless factor unless breeding though


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## Psionic (Dec 22, 2011)

It seems everyone has started with larger fish. I feel kinda stupid/embarrassed that I'm with small juvies 


-Val


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Psionic said:


> It seems everyone has started with larger fish. I feel kinda stupid/embarrassed that I'm with small juvies
> 
> 
> -Val


I started with 2-2.5 inchers. How small are yours?


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## Psionic (Dec 22, 2011)

They were a little under 2 inches and now at almost 3


-Val


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Rewarding huh?

How long have you had them?


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## Psionic (Dec 22, 2011)

Yea I've enjoyed watching them grow up. Hmm I'd say the first or second week into February? Around there I believe. 


-Val


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Woo pretty good actually. See how doing if right pays off..


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## Psionic (Dec 22, 2011)

I'm just worried that I'm going to kill them. I need to learn to speak fish. I need to make them new food *shudder* blending beef heart is so gross. Yuck. Also the Repashy gel powder stuff and other things I add? Bleh! It's a wicked bad smell making it. 


-Val


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I never made beef heart.. 


They're a lot hardier than you think, and it sounds like you've got it down pretty good.


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## Psionic (Dec 22, 2011)

Consider yourself lucky. I haaaated making it. I trimmed the fat and cut it into cubes. I then proceeded to put all the other ingredients (blood worms, brine, bits, flakes, 3 different Repashy, gelatin packet) into small containers and told my husband to blend it all together lol. 


-Val


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Sounds terrible actually. 
 mine had to live odd bloodworms and tetrabits. I got them free through work.

Oh my poor neglected discus.


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## Brian Mc (Feb 9, 2012)

Great job Paul, I think any discus people who might need help would be in good hands with you.

There are always reasons why things are done the way they are. One reason everybody started using their own beefheart mixes was not only for the great growth rates but it makes it an easy delivery system for medicine and the fish will eat it since they are used to it. The quality of fish from Asia is much higher now than it used to be so full quarantine and meds was standard practice when importing but some guys would skip this step and send you time bombs. Just throwing some random stuff out to explain why I own a sausage grinder lol.

Also I did want to say that reading back I do not mean to give the impression from my earlier post that it was the dark ages before the internet, we had pioneers like Wattley, Untergasser, etc. that led the way and we all read the same books but it got easier to put the big picture together once everyone got together.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I'm too much of a pansy to make my own beef heart. When I need to deliver medicine I just soak it into bloodworms.. 

I had homemade beef heart given to me by a local breeder and they wouldn't touch it. Starved them, tried everything. Gave up.


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## Brian Mc (Feb 9, 2012)

Yeah it is easier to start them on it when they are dime and smaller and they still really attack anything. They will usually eat it if you hold out but 3-4 days and you start sweating it when you think of all growth you missed out on during that time. They could get sick from being weakened too. Usually if the mix has shrimp in it they will tear it up.

Some more difficult ones I have seen it mixed with a lot of tetrabits or something they are used to, sneak it in on them lol. But I know what you mean, some of them just don't seem to recognize it as food. I am starting to recall why I don't do this stuff anymore. :hihi:


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I tried starving for two days and feeding it every couple hours on the last day, getting all the leftovers out an they wouldn't bite. 

So I got scared and just fed them what I knew they'd eat. Ha


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## Eldachleich (Jul 9, 2011)

On a sidenote... Does this BB tank growth thing apply to angels as well?


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

More water changes / cleaner water will give any fish more growth. Change more water with your guppies; they'll grow faster and larger. 

I'm pretty sure it's a rule on most fish, it's just most fish won't stunt like a discus will if you don't keep up high maintenance. 

The only reason bare bottom is to clean up the nasty easier thus giving you higher water quality.


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## Psionic (Dec 22, 2011)

I know some people also mix in garlic to help the attract the fish to the food. My fish now eat omega one, tetra bits, and frozen brine shimp. I think it's because that's in the beef heart I make them and they're used to it now. So if I'm in a rush, I can feed them those and then run out the door. 

I don't know if you're supposed to cut the fat off the heart or not. I went ahead and removed it. I wanted my discus cholesterol free! I did try feeding them Repashy food cubes a couple of times when they were smaller. They would pick on it, but not devour it like everything else. I'll have to try that again to see if they'll eat it now since I put it in the beef heart mix. 


-Val


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## ObeytheFish (Feb 27, 2012)

So you guys are saying that Discus won't live as long in a planted tank than in a bbt?


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## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

ObeytheFish said:


> So you guys are saying that Discus won't live as long in a planted tank than in a bbt?


they will live.. 

can be a whole lot harder to meet the needs of the fish and plants at the same time in same space..

people run into problems when they buy the small 2" fish cuz instead of the $150 adult.. 

once i went barebottom, i could not believe how much waste from food and fish that would accumulate in just a matter of hours.. stuff i would not see if i had a substrate..

so problems in growth or water quality illness can result


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## Psionic (Dec 22, 2011)

I can tell you in one word how to easily have discus...
Python!


-Val


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Topics: 
1) Runts and stunted discus.
2) Discus growth limitations and development ratios.

Couple more snippets of discus trivia for those who do not know, or for those who might gain a little added insight.

1) A discus runt is one that is genetically pre-disposed and destined at birth to be of an abnormally small size at maturity, regardless of quality of care levels, while a stunted discus is one that fails, during it's developmental stage, to achieve normal growth due to being raised in less than ideal tank conditions, at times coupled with an inadequate diet &/or other contributing factors.

2) Discus growth factors & ratios:
There have been a number of carefully controlled studies of 'average' discus growth results in a bare-bottom tank vs. a planted tank environment, but I can't accurately recall the specifics of the results of these tests.

However, this is my approximation of the usually expected results, based on personal experience and my recollection of prior research into the matter.

Let us assume first that one were to place a set of 12 juvie discus of the same size (under 3.0") and emanating from the same spawn, in each of 2 similar-sized tanks, one being bare-bottom, and the other being lightly or medium-planted, and then growing both sets out for a period of around 15 months or so. 

Let us further assume that the BB tank received large, daily wc's, a good diet, and quality care as to tank cleanliness, etc. which is the norm in a BB tank.

The planted tank on the other hand received 3 large wc's a week, in accord with the adopted regime of maintaining reasonable plant growth and tank display appearance. This also being the 'norm' for a planted tank.
This set of fish was also fed a good diet, and the tank cleansing routine and efforts to maintain quality water conditions, received the best attention that could be administered under the circumstances.

This would be the approximate result.

1) Bare-Bottom tank -
- 3 or 4 of the fish would reach above-average size - over 6.0", up to around 7.0" or more.
- 6 to 8 of the fish would be good-sized fish, in & around the 5.75" to 6.0" range.
- 1 or 2 fish may be runts, or have become stunted (the latter which could be for a variety of unknown reasons).

2) Planted tank -
- 1 or 2 would grow to 6.0" or larger.
- 6 to 9 would reach average, or slightly below average size, generally from 5.0" to around 5.75" - note that this is a significantly lesser 'average' size than the same group in the BB tank.
- 2 to 4 fish would be stunted, of which 1 may be a runt.

As you can see, overall, the fish in the planted tank will not reach the size of those in the BB tank, and their growth rate will be somewhat slower during the grow-out period.
I believe this gives some evidence that a planted environment will limit discus' growth
vs. BB.

As for runts or stunted fish having a shorter life span than normal-sized discus ? I really don't know, but I suspect it's entirely feasible that they will not live as long.


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## Bahugo (Apr 18, 2011)

discuspaul said:


> 2) Discus growth factors & ratios:
> There have been a number of carefully controlled studies of 'average' discus growth results in a bare-bottom tank vs. a planted tank environment, but I can't accurately recall the specifics of the results of these tests.
> 
> However, this is my approximation of the usually expected results, based on personal experience and my recollection of prior research into the matter.
> ...


Is this a fair comparison though? There are several different factors in this equation besides BB vs planted that can cause growth difference. 

I would like too see a study where *All things equal* (i.e wc's, feeding, maintenance, source of fish) then factor growth rate of bare bottom vs planted. 

*I am making myself clear, this is a discussion question not a argument generator. *


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I don't think maintenance could be the same because you can't quite clean to the same extent no matter what. Bacteria waste etc gets trapped in the substrate no matter how much you clean. There can't really be a study to have everything the exact same.

I believe if you were to change the amount of water on a planted tank as you do a bb discus tank plants would die. 

So I don't know if it really works, because of the difference in what is needed to make the tank work. Make sense?


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

I did not suggest this was a 'fair' comparison. It is simply a comparison of the normal, most frequently used approach for discus-keepers to maintain discus in a BB tank, vs. the most usual method and routine of keeping discus in a planted tank.

Ergo, it is one of the best ways to determine the growth limitations of the standard BB method against the standard planted tank method, and for discus-keepers to be able to gauge those fish developmental differences.
Of course there are always other factors creeping in that could have an influence on the growth results, both in either type of tank set-up, but you would not in any event be undertaking an all things equal approach, just by the simple fact that you have a planted environment vs. a no plants tank.

All the other major factors were equal (the feeding, the fish source, and even the tank maintenance to a degree), except for the wcs. And if that were the same, one would very likely have poorer results with plant development and growth, with more failing, decaying plants, and the presence of more decomposing plant material, and other factors, such as possible nitrate build-up, perhaps ammonia presence, and greater difficulty with tank cleansing & maintenance, that would likely occur in such a scenario, thereby likely creating even worse conditions in the planted situation, resulting in an even more unfavorable result of discus development and growth in that environment. 

That's my take.
btw, do you keep discus/ have you kept them ?


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

I still think this idea that you cannot keep juvie Discus and raise them to full size in a planted tank is in part based on fear and paranoia without an understanding of what a real plant tank is. I discussed this today with Tom Barr on my live radio show. I have yet to have a person explain to me in detail what it is about a substrate and live plants that is supposed to stunt the fishes growth. It is not the plants themselves, it is not nitrate or ammonium because the plants eliminate that... so what is it exactly? Is it the evil gravel? Is it pathogens or disease that is hiding in the gravel? 

A real plant tank has very high oxygen levels which promotes good health. You can do daily water changes to add even more oxygen and remove anything undesirable. In a healthy plant tank there would never be any measurable nitrate unless you were adding it to the water. Considering all this, I have a hard time understanding what all the hoopla is. I thought Tom had some interesting things to say about this subject.



> All the other major factors were equal (the feeding, the fish source, and even the tank maintenance to a degree), except for the wcs. And if that were the same, one would very likely have poorer results with plant development and growth, with more failing, decaying plants, and the presence of more decomposing plant material, and other factors, such as possible nitrate build-up, perhaps ammonia presence, and greater difficulty with tank cleansing & maintenance, that would likely occur in such a scenario, thereby likely creating even worse conditions in the planted situation, resulting in an even more unfavorable result of discus development and growth in that environment.


I don't know if I am taking this out of context or not, but the idea that plants create all these problems is conjecture, and a bunch of what ifs...anotherwords FEAR. All of that is easily avoided with STABILITY. Plant matter is easy to remove with diligent water changes and removal to prevent organic build up. Organic build up just does not happen over night, it takes time, and happens from NEGLECT. Most people keeping planted tanks are somewhat lazy about maintenance, I know I am, because in most cases it is not that critical, but discus keepers who believe in bare bottom tanks are EXTREMELY diligent about water changes and maintenance already and what is a normal routine for them is more than sufficient to prevent problems in a planted tank.

If you break in a new tank with plants and allow it to be stable after two or three months, there is no reason why you couldn't keep the water pristine enough to raise Discus to adulthood with the type of diligence that Discus keepers adhere too.



> I believe if you were to change the amount of water on a planted tank as you do a bb discus tank plants would die.


No, thats not the case. Plants love a continual new supply of water, in fact that is how plants are commercially grown. Large operations like Florida Aquatic Nurseries grow both fully submersed and emergent plants in a system that constantly flushes out the water and replaces it with new water every hour. The addition of continual fresh ground water actually raises the C02 level as well as oxygen and the plants love it.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Being one who believes in bare bottom I'm deciding not to chime in for fear it will sour the thread.

Reason I am posting is that you said that I'm wrong about too many water changes messing with plants, but in your quote by I'm assuming Tom Barr, he says the same thing as I do. "everything maintenance is the same etc etc but the wc" then says something about plant growth being hindered.

I can't quote exactly, tapatalk doesn't let me.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Kidding I guess it was from Paul. Either way, I've heard plants don't do well with water changes every day. I have little personal experience as I don't change water in my planted tanks very often..


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## Bahugo (Apr 18, 2011)

I agree with Robert H on this topic. Plants are perfectly fine by water changes, as long as it is a stable change with the same chemistry which you would be doing water changes with the same water parameters anyways for the discus. 

I have never seen evidence of discus being stunted from a planted tank. A very reputable breeder in my area did a speech for our club, and the reason he doesn't keep discus in a planted tank was, "Too display the true beauty of the fish without anything else in there". He never said that plants would stunt the fish, or anything of that nature. 

And yes, to answer your question I have kept discus. I sold them besides one who I lost too a internal parasite (he had it when I received him) 

You can have a beautiful tank without having anything rooted into the substrate which would allow you too still thoroughly vacuum the gravel daily. 

My question still applies, what evidence is there that if:
Wc the same, 
vacuuming the same, 
feeding the same, 
Same water chemistry,
everything else the same 

Would a planted tank stunt the growth compared too a BB tank? *This question is about discus growth, not about plant growth.* If the discus is eating the same quantity of food in tank A and tank B and everything else is kept equal besides the presence of plants, do plants create a biological or hormonal difference in growth rate of a fish? 

Again this is not too cause an argument, I want this too be a healthy debate.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Should be the same growth rate. People just don't want to change 75-80% water every day in a planted tank. 

Planted tanks make MOST people lazy. I'm included. I don't keep anything precious with plants as I don't care about water quality with plants.

If you can keep the gravel clean, feed them just as much (making sure they find it and not just letting it drop to the substrate, as with gravel it doesn't get blown up by them as easy) and doing large daily water changes, wiping down all surfaces to get rid of slime build up. All that.

Growth rate SHOULD be the same. Sounds like a lot of effort, id rather just do bare bottom for a year!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Bahugo said:


> Is this a fair comparison though? There are several different factors in this equation besides BB vs planted that can cause growth difference.
> 
> I would like too see a study where *All things equal* (i.e wc's, feeding, maintenance, source of fish) then factor growth rate of bare bottom vs planted.
> 
> *I am making myself clear, this is a discussion question not a argument generator. *


I can assure you, the Discus folks have not supported this, it's speculation and likely will remain so, even a definitive study is subjected to myths and user errors and hobbyists differences, example is poor CO2 usage, will never let this one die.

They have bred well at 45ppm.

The fish are fine and you want a size reference, eat this:

Many top Discus folks are just that, they might have nice looking Discus tanks etc, but it's rare you folks mastering both the plants and the fish to a high level.

When they fail in one area, they blame the plants, or they blame the fish in the case of the plant folks.

I agree it is easier to grow and feed and do the water changes in a non planted tank if your goal is merely to raise them. This is true for all fish, stunting could be the folks that keep planted tanks merely do not feed them enough, mine grew to 6 inches in my 90 Gal planted tank, from 3" and bred.

Now is a 6 " discus some sort hideous thing? No, not one bit, in fact, many prefer smaller fish, not larger. I mean why is that such a hoot and big deal?

If your fish is 1" shy of the max sizes?

Where the big deal about that?
Is that all the Discus folks are going with?

I've done the breeding and the growing.........if 1" is all they got, this is not really an issue unless you are a fish judge, and this means 99.9% of everybody else likely does not care much. There's some trade off, but it's not as big a deal as folks have made it out to be.

I don't know, maybe if I fed them more often or live worms, they would have made it to 7", maybe I needed to keep them longer. All ti takes are a couple of folks who have done it, to falsify the hypothesis, just because everyone makes mistakes with either the fish, or the plants.....does not imply anything, there are many ways to mess things up, totally unrelated to planted tanks.

And do we not also see those same issues on Discus web sites with folks lacking any plants.........??

You bet.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

TWA said:


> Being one who believes in bare bottom I'm deciding not to chime in for fear it will sour the thread.
> 
> Reason I am posting is that you said that I'm wrong about too many water changes messing with plants, but in your quote by I'm assuming Tom Barr, he says the same thing as I do. "everything maintenance is the same etc etc but the wc" then says something about plant growth being hindered.
> 
> I can't quote exactly, tapatalk doesn't let me.


You cannot over do water changes in a planted tank, one client has an automated system, changes daily, 20%. As long as you dose to keep the ferts up, you can do 80% daily without issues, in fact, this will make most tanks look great and produces tremendous growth and very little algae issues.

I do 3-4x a week water changes before a contest etc, or a public open house.

Well, I use to.........been awhile now.

Plants like it, fish like it, knock yourself silly!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

TWA said:


> Should be the same growth rate. People just don't want to change 75-80% water every day in a planted tank.
> 
> Planted tanks make MOST people lazy. I'm included. I don't keep anything precious with plants as I don't care about water quality with plants.
> 
> ...


Yes, you'd require some motivation with planted tanks I think. If you are really into Discus and into plants..........and only have 1-2 tanks......no spare room, garage etc.......then you end up with a planted discus tank for many.

I told Robert to simply have a carpet of water sprite on the surface: natural, no CO2 needed, fast growing, natural darker region for the fish, no sediment needed, looks decent too. Any and every tank can benefit from plants, how we decide to use them is a matter of trade offs and debate.

Same with fish.

But I think discus folks are good hobbyists and workers.they filter the water well, and do lots of water changes, this same set of traits is also good for planted hobbyists as well.

So you can have both if the person's goal is as such, and you can raise them in a BB tank, then add them to the display tank later if you need that extra 1-2" inch or there are feeding issues in the planted tank, fish hide etc.

I've bought fish from breeders and this fish here is still the largest Discus I've ever seen.


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## Naekuh (Oct 19, 2011)

Good lord Tom, is that you swimming inside your tank?? 

Every time you show off your tanks... pure jealously enrages from me..


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## Brian Mc (Feb 9, 2012)

plantbrain said:


> Now is a 6 " discus some sort hideous thing? No, not one bit, in fact, many prefer smaller fish, not larger. I mean why is that such a hoot and big deal?
> 
> If your fish is 1" shy of the max sizes?
> 
> ...


Well I do not speak for the discus people and I don't do them any longer but I will tell you, yes. That is what it is all about. Who has the nicest fish? Who has the biggest XXX. :icon_mrgr I mean look at everything they give up for their fish, it is all about the fish. Fishrooms are seen more as labs than displays.

Bare bottom tanks don't bother hardcore discus folk since they just want to see the fish without distractions. Any time you can spend with the fish is spent looking for flaws, inherited traits, signs of future illness, group behavior, etc. Who cares about plants lol? I would still rather watch a bare tank of discus than a planted tank any day. Dunno why. It is a mindset. I never entered any fish in a show and the only people who ever saw mine were a few customers, we didn't have digital cameras. But the few people I sent fish to were happy to get them we will say that. Growing them to their full potential directly shows the keeper's skills. It is literally a race against the clock, every feeding missed is lost growth. That inch comes at a great price.

It attracts a certain kind of person, the only reason I started was because I was pretty good with FW tanks and the wife mentioned her old dentist had spent over $8000 (that was a lot of money then LOL) trying to breed discus, never succeeded and almost went mad. "Bet I could do that!" I said. "No you couldn't!" says she. Challenge accepted. :icon_mrgr

I was one of the first guys in the US to run the flow-thru (constant drip) system and IMO that is the only way to do discus, set it and forget it. Never thought of doing plants in there though, hmmm. I have a perfect spot for a tank that already has a drain, maybe one day I will set up a big fully planted tank and get a batch of quarter discus and give it a run and put this to rest LOL. One day after my wife leaves me. To me that seems like kind of cheating though.

Anyway, a big discus to me is at least 8 or 9" TL but more importantly 1+ to 1.5 inches thick. It is the thickness that makes them impressive to me. Put them up against regular discus or even what most people consider big discus and there is just no comparison. I guarantee most people have never seen one. Size like this is usually selected for and takes a few generations to work up to. Saw some recently from a big US seller and meh, they were OK. They did not look to have the potential to be large discus. I am looking forward to hopefully making the NADA show and seeing the best of the best these days to see how far they have come. Or not. Selection for all the crazy colors many times takes away from the size.

Oh yeah thanks for the plants Tom! roud:

Edit:

Oh no, just realized I would need 2 tanks, one BB and one planted, dunno if I can fit them in that spot, oh the wife would have a cow. :red_mouth


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Fishes and plant's have needs, and perhaps it is more trouble, for those who want it all right now,with perhaps little expierience in either field.
I like the idea of growing out a group of Discus in a BB tank or shallow sand susbtrate, While at same time growing out plant's in a tank large enough to house the Discus once they have achieved the desired result's/growth. 

A couple notes/thought's on planted tank's,,,Water changes daily, or three or four times a week on CO2 injected tank would not maybe pose the fluctuating CO2 levels often associated with Algae,, that this routine might present in Non CO2 enhanced tank where levels of CO2 are biologically created.?
Someone, suggested that a healthy planted tank would have no Nitrates but most who run high energy planted tanks, dump KNO3 (ammonium nitrates),KH2po4,trace, into these tanks on daily basis.These mineral salt's,and increased total dissolved solids,may or may not benefit young fishes to the degree that they benefit plant's.
Many folks keep Discus at temps that encourage metabolisim,growth, and limit the chance of fishes becoming bloated NO?
I often see lists of plant's that perfer cooler ,temps and plant list's for warmer temps.
Ditto for tankmates for Discus. 

Lighting is another area that I might consider if reducing stress among the fishes is a concern.
Not many fishes, including Discus,, appreciate tanks with excessive lighting and no areas of shade to retire to.Stressed fishes, in my expieriences are more sickly.
I'm no Discus expert/pro, but have managed over the years to keep groups of these fishes with basic care you or I would afford any other large waste producing fish.(no they weren't 8 to 9 inch)For me,,I would want as mentioned,,to grow out the fish in more controlled enviornment and plant's likewise,rather than attempting both in same glass box of water if expierience in both area's was perhap's lacking?
Just my two cent's.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Brian Mc said:


> Well I do not speak for the discus people and I don't do them any longer but I will tell you, yes. That is what it is all about. Who has the nicest fish? Who has the biggest XXX. :icon_mrgr I mean look at everything they give up for their fish, it is all about the fish. Fishrooms are seen more as labs than displays.
> 
> Bare bottom tanks don't bother hardcore discus folk since they just want to see the fish without distractions. Any time you can spend with the fish is spent looking for flaws, inherited traits, signs of future illness, group behavior, etc. Who cares about plants lol? I would still rather watch a bare tank of discus than a planted tank any day. Dunno why. It is a mindset. I never entered any fish in a show and the only people who ever saw mine were a few customers, we didn't have digital cameras. But the few people I sent fish to were happy to get them we will say that. Growing them to their full potential directly shows the keeper's skills. It is literally a race against the clock, every feeding missed is lost growth. That inch comes at a great price.
> 
> ...


So ugly tank and scape......for another 10% size?
Is this the best and is this same standard applied to ALL FISH?

What is the max size in natural systems? 
These are farmed animals. This is not really "stunting".

Who has the biggest Pumpkin, who has the biggest "Cow"..........etc........

Hopefully not the wife


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

roadmaster said:


> Fishes and plant's have needs, and perhaps it is more trouble, for those who want it all right now,with perhaps little expierience in either field.
> I like the idea of growing out a group of Discus in a BB tank or shallow sand susbtrate, While at same time growing out plant's in a tank large enough to house the Discus once they have achieved the desired result's/growth.
> 
> A couple notes/thought's on planted tank's,,,Water changes daily, or three or four times a week on CO2 injected tank would not maybe pose the fluctuating CO2 levels often associated with Algae,, that this routine might present in Non CO2 enhanced tank where levels of CO2 are biologically created.?
> ...


Plants grow fine at Discus temps and the fish breed and the plants grow great, never an issue personally.

This temp thing is a myth.


KNO3 vs fish waste/NH4= apples and oranges. This has been discussed many times. One is 1000X more toxic than the other.

Water changes are good, perhaps not so much for a non CO2 tank, but with CO2 and many non CO2 set ups, a daily can be very good.

Plants and wood can easily create plenty of locations for any fish to swim to a shady spot. 

I think it gets down to the owners goal.

If you are full Discus zealotry: BB...............breeder, Discus show, 4H type stuff/approach.

If you are plant zealotry: full on plant focus, then fit the fish to those conditions.

But the reality for most hobbyist, is certainly somewhere in between.
A balance of a nice scape that's well run, and a nice fish population.

7"-9" fish can be added.
Breed and do quite nice.

NO3, temps, etc are much less the problem...........I'd say poor CO2 use and poor O2 levels are the biggest issue between larger fish and higher temps, and Discus. Smaller fish are much more tolerant to CO2 and lower O2.

Water sprite floating also works nicely if you want to get the benefits of plants without the work.


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## Brian Mc (Feb 9, 2012)

plantbrain said:


> So ugly tank and scape......for another 10% size?
> Is this the best and is this same standard applied to ALL FISH?
> 
> What is the max size in natural systems?
> ...


I agree, there is nothing wrong with normal or smaller discus for most people. Stunted fish are another issue and usually culled by the serious discus keeper due to space. Yes, the wife would have had a prize winning heffer. :icon_mrgr


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I'm going to toss this out here, this thread includes newbies in the title. Not, rules for those who have experience with discus. Until you have the hang of discus and their behavior, needs, all that, they probably shouldn't be mixed with the planted tank. For the sake of the fish and the finances of the aquarist. 

After you get the hang of it, you can do what you want KNOWING the fish and the signs something is wrong.

I don't know if discussing what could be done is beneficial for anyone new to discus reading this thread. You SHOULD learn on a bare bottom tank until you know everything about the fish and their behavior, then throw them in a planted tank. Ignoring growth, all of that. Knowing the behavior of a $30-80 fish seems more important than throwing it into somewhere it may not do perfectly in.

Raising them in a controlled environment will benefit you greatly. Medicating and all that isn't a problem in a bare bottom where it can in a planted tank. It's like a quarantine tank but instead of just making sure theyre healthy, it's learning the behavior ect of the fish. Things you often ignore when there is other focal points in the tank.

Just try and keep in mind this is discus for newbies, not what you can do when you've got the hang of them. Possibilities are endless if you want to work, but until you get the hang of it, the fish will likely suffer with your experiments


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

TWA said:


> I'm going to toss this out here, this thread includes newbies in the title. Not, rules for those who have experience with discus. Until you have the hang of discus and their behavior, needs, all that, they probably shouldn't be mixed with the planted tank. For the sake of the fish and the finances of the aquarist.
> 
> After you get the hang of it, you can do what you want KNOWING the fish and the signs something is wrong.
> 
> ...


One wonders what you did to your discus when you were a newbie LOL.......


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

TWA said:


> I'm going to toss this out here, this thread includes newbies in the title. Not, rules for those who have experience with discus. Until you have the hang of discus and their behavior, needs, all that, they probably shouldn't be mixed with the planted tank. For the sake of the fish and the finances of the aquarist.
> 
> After you get the hang of it, you can do what you want KNOWING the fish and the signs something is wrong.
> 
> ...


TWA has made a very good point here.
This thread was indeed intended to be of help mainly to newbies to discus, and I had hoped (perhaps a little naively) that it would remain that way.

TWA obviously has good experience with discus, and I suggest you beginners would be well advised to listen to what he has to say.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

kribkeeper888 said:


> One wonders what you did to your discus when you were a newbie LOL.......


I listened to my local discus breeder and kept them in a 75 gallon bare bottom tank. Changed that to sand. Sand is the best substrate, but it is still so much more work. You'd be surprised at how much nasty clouds up the tank from .25 inches of sand when you stir it up. Regretted that forever, but I didn't want to store the sand elsewhere so I never took it out. Ha! 

I, like most new people tried to do minimum work, getting it down to 30% every other day. Progressively I begun changing more and more until I was about 70-80% every day. 

Fish react well to water changes, you can see them actually perk up. 

The absolute two worse things I did, which prevented some of mine from growing to be the big guys, which If this is not important to you, doesn't matter, was letting them battle illness longer than they should have. It really hinders the ability to grow when they are barely eating, using all their energy to battle the illness. This hindered them some, along with the fact when yours begin breeding (mine at 7 months, ugh..) they then use the majority of their energy to spawn. 

Mine will never be the biggest discus, and I'm aware of that. And thus going again and again with more is what it takes. They look good, better than pet discus.

I've learned from the issues I've had and I just try to pass it along. 


I'm starting to realize that the arguments are very very stupid on Plantedtank about discus. People don't think the same. Some people believe in just keeping the discus and having it as a "pet quality" fish. Then some work an focus on the beautiful fish a discus is and believe the only proper way to keep it is to have it as a high quality looker.

To me, they're to expensive to not treat the way I feel they should. Your fish, your money, your experiments, your problems.


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## Brian Mc (Feb 9, 2012)

TWA said:


> Your fish, your money, your experiments, your problems.


^^Exactly. I think this thread has kept a very nice tone and I don't see why anybody has to get huffy about anything. If you like your fish and enjoy them that is all that matters. How you get there is usually an individual journey. There is plenty to read to help you choose your path but I think Paul has hit a lot of the commonly agreed points among discus folk. But then again they are strange people I think we can all agree LOL J/K. :hihi:

Of course others can have success with their own methods, as Tom points out is about being a good hobbyist. I agree Paul this should stick to helping newbies, sorry but I think this was the only discus thread that didn't get locked.  Nice job everyone. :thumbsup:


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

Yeah I personally dont feel the need to raise premium discus, pet quality is good enough for me lol, even if they dont look as good, heck, the personality is still there. And as long as they are happy. So am I.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I suppose I enjoy the comments I get from local aquarist that see my discus and that I raised them well. It's nice to have your work appreciated. People stop by, they compliment my planted tanks, then they compliment the discus.

You like your planted tanks complemented, I love my discus. A lot more time and effort goes into discus than setting up a planted tank.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

We are an odd breed, us discus folk. That's for sure..


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## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

TWA said:


> We are an odd breed, us discus folk. That's for sure..


jus cuz we like to water change?


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

That and the fact we are mostly crazy about these fish. Just saying. You too warlock. I know you're crazy. You tone it down here but we know. We know you.


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

TWA said:


> I suppose I enjoy the comments I get from local aquarist that see my discus and that I raised them well. It's nice to have your work appreciated. People stop by, they compliment my planted tanks, then they compliment the discus.
> 
> You like your planted tanks complemented, I love my discus. A lot more time and effort goes into discus than setting up a planted tank.


Yeah, well whatever is rewarding to each person. to each his own lol.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Brian Mc said:


> ^^Exactly. I think this thread has kept a very nice tone and I don't see why anybody has to get huffy about anything. If you like your fish and enjoy them that is all that matters. How you get there is usually an individual journey. There is plenty to read to help you choose your path but I think Paul has hit a lot of the commonly agreed points among discus folk. But then again they are strange people I think we can all agree LOL J/K. :hihi:
> 
> Of course others can have success with their own methods, as Tom points out is about being a good hobbyist. I agree Paul this should stick to helping newbies, sorry but I think this was the only discus thread that didn't get locked.  Nice job everyone. :thumbsup:


 
Re: Your last sentence, Brian:
That was because 99% of us worked hard to try and accomplish that.
( and sometimes, for me at least, working hard means remaining silent when I feel it's for the best !)


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

P.S.
And Brian, I neglected to add my thanks to you for bringing your astuteness, civility, and a definite, distinct touch of calming influence to this thread !


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

+1 

Read it and bite your tongue. Hope they learn the right way elsewhere.


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

discuspaul said:


> re: Your last sentence, brian:
> That was because 99% of us worked hard to try and accomplish that.
> ( and sometimes, for me at least, working hard means remaining silent when i feel it's for the best !)


99%?


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

:


twa said:


> +1
> 
> read it and bite your tongue. Hope they learn the right way elsewhere.


+2 :d


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## Bahugo (Apr 18, 2011)

Seriously, so we are on a *planted tank forum* and I asked a very simple, polite conversation starting question and it can not be discussed? Telling people on a planted tank forum too bite their tongue on the discussion of planted tanks and discus seems pretty harsh. 

People keep throwing different factors into my equation and I honestly as a hobbyist would like too know the answer, I don't understand why it is getting shunned. 

A low tech (*not* high tech co2, high light, daily ferts) 75 (just using this as a base size, could be any size) gallon tank with driftwood, anubias, bolbitis, java moss, java fern etc and a small layer (an inch for the question) of gravel/sand. Where the water chemistry, maintenance performed, feeding the same is same would it cause stunting of the fish's growth? 

I think people are over-complicating my question. I really think people could benefit from this question on this site who wanted too raise discus.

If a person dislikes bare bottom tanks, but wanted discus: If they were too set up a low tech planted tank *FOR DISCUS* and performed the same maintenance associated with a bare bottom tank too grow the fish too their maximum size, would they still grow too optimal size?


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Yes. That's what you want to hear, yes.

We over complicate your question and you over simplify it. There's a lot of factors that are different, not just having green in it.

The same goes with having a gravel substrate with nothing in it. A lot more stuff gets down in the gravel than you could ever get out.

Like I've said, it's a very very difficult comparison to make, but I will say yes. If you do everything the exact same, including cleaning the substrate completely like you would bare bottom, wiping down all surfaces of slime build up, growth would be exactly the same.


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## Brian Mc (Feb 9, 2012)

discuspaul said:


> P.S.
> And Brian, I neglected to add my thanks to you for bringing your astuteness, civility, and a definite, distinct touch of calming influence to this thread !


Hey thanks Paul, I like to think it is because I don't really have a position any longer since I don't keep them anymore, but really once a discus nut always a discus nut LOL.

Sorry I didn't see the question as you posed it, Bahugo. I am sure everyone would have their own opinion on this and due to many factors may have varying results. On the specific question of growing out small discus in a tank such as this vs. a BB I would also say yes but success would depend on proper setup and execution. 

As TWA noted, once you run a BB you see everything in the tank, a real eye opener. One inch of sand is a little deeper than I would like to see and I would use a very fine grain size that food and feces would not penetrate quickly. Of course that way you can vacuum it off the top every day, preferably twice. I would not use gravel or flourite. Assuming you are good with knowing exactly how much food your fish will eat in 5 mins otherwise you are vacuuming after each of the 4-5 feedings a day. What to feed a discus is a whole other subject but for my tank it would be primarily beefheart, also brineshrimp, bloodworms, quality flakes, maybe tetrabits. The frozen brineshrimp has little nutritional value but keeps their guts moving. Bloodworms not that great either but they just like them so much lol. I would also do a deep vacuum and stirring of the sand no less than once a week, preferably twice. As TWA noted a daily wipedown of the glass gets rid of the discus slime.

Ideally you would have a flow-thru drip system so you don't have to change all that water. Growing out discus I would do no less than 50% and more like 100% a day, that gets old by hand. I am sure plenty of people get by with less, that is just how I do it. 

Other factors would be the filtration, again just my opinion but I don't like canisters for discus, they hide things. I would want to see oversized bio-wheels or a nice wet-dry. You need a lot of bio capacity for these big eaters (crappers lol). You can do big sponges if you don't mind the look but I don't think that is what you are going for. Also these types of filters promote high oxygen levels which you want since you are running 85 degrees. 

I would definitely quarantine the plants without any fish at all ahead of time, sorry I can't remember off the top of my head the gill fluke lifecycle (wow never thought I would forget that lol) but I would do it a couple weeks longer than that. If you were in a hurry maybe a PP or bleach soak but there is still room for trouble there.

This is off the top of my head, there may be other factors to consider. Could you grow some nice size 6"+ discus in such a tank without all this work and get by with less? Maybe. But if you did all of this as I described you could say that you gave that fish pretty much every opportunity to grow to its genetic potential. Now when you figure out how to feed 4-5 times a day without the wife helping please PM me.

Also I wanted to emphasize what TWA said earlier about a sick fish, that is the greatest impediment to growing out a nice fish. A week or two bout with something can easily lose an inch off a fish, maybe more if it is something internal that can later impact their ability to absorb nutrients.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I battled a parasite that went through all my discus for 2-3 weeks. That's a killer. Being cheap and in denial I just changed more and more water and ignored the problem until they really looked bad, then I felt stupid and went and bought medication.

Things that could have been I guess.


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## Brian Mc (Feb 9, 2012)

Happens to the best of us. Anyone considering keeping discus I highly recommend Dieter Untergasser's Discus Health book, you will feel like a disease pro by the time you get done with that one. One reason I told the wife that I had to go to the NADA show, he is speaking. I dunno if I will even be able to catch him speaking, just want to shake his hand after I read that book so many times just wanted to say thanks lol.


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## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

TWA said:


> That and the fact we are mostly crazy about these fish. Just saying. You too warlock. I know you're crazy. You tone it down here but we know. We know you.


yes.. but most people here want to go planted.. since all mine are BB.. not much to say


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Actually most probably don't know you here. But I do, I've read the horrible things you've said. You tone it down here, I tone it down on simply. We compliment each other.


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## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

TWA said:


> Actually most probably don't know you here. But I do, I've read the horrible things you've said. You tone it down here, I tone it down on simply. We compliment each other.


sometimes the truth hurts 

besides i am here for the shrimp, not discus :icon_cool:icon_cool


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Warlock said:


> sometimes the truth hurts
> 
> besides i am here for the shrimp, not discus :icon_cool:icon_cool


I have no reason to be here.  

Plants I guess. I like plants. Absorbing the information. I can't afford the price of the pricey shrimp.

I tone it down so far on simply youve probably never seen me post besides Tefe pronouncing.


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## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

TWA said:


> I have no reason to be here.
> 
> Plants I guess. I like plants. Absorbing the information. I can't afford the price of the pricey shrimp.
> 
> I tone it down so far on simply youve probably never seen me post besides Tefe pronouncing.


:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I refuse to clutter another thread trying to communicate with you.

PMd.


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## gonefishin (Feb 29, 2012)

Nice write up and some nice tanks keep up the good work all of you...


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Bahugo said:


> Seriously, so we are on a *planted tank forum* and I asked a very simple, polite conversation starting question and it can not be discussed? Telling people on a planted tank forum too bite their tongue on the discussion of planted tanks and discus seems pretty harsh.
> 
> People keep throwing different factors into my equation and I honestly as a hobbyist would like too know the answer, I don't understand why it is getting shunned.
> 
> ...


 
I believe you could.
I did something similar with my first attempt with these fish,minus plant's other than floating pennywort.
I despised BB and kept a group of these fish in 80 gal, over sand substrate (around two inches), with large driftwood pieces,smooth river stones,and some floating pennywort as mentioned.
Trumpet snails, Sterbai corydoras,and four or five German blue rams were also housed with the young fish.
I changed water 50 to 70 % three times a week until the fishes were around six months old.I fed them a variety of foods three times a day, with exception of beef heart, and blood worms (I have issues with both) and fishes seemed to do well for me.
I went against conventional wisdom/consensus perhaps,, But my tank's,my fish.
I do not feel I did the fish a dis-service, and learned from the expierience which was at the time new for me.
Fishes did not become sickly and they grew quickly but perhaps not to the size of those "ShowFish"
Other's I kept after this initial Foray into Discus were kept with more conventional approach(BB,more feed,more water changes) to judge any changes in growth.
With more food, more frequent water changes growth rate increased ,no surprise there.
As I have said somewhere in this thread, or perhaps another that quickly deteriorated:icon_neut I'ts all about ones expectations and care that they are willing to provide.
I would however,suggest a spare tank or two with these fish depending on your personality.I say this because some fancy these fish as sedate, and are sometimes troubled by the behaivors of these large cichlids when they display behaivors similar to other large cichlids while establishing pecking order. Some fishes may be singled out by more dominate fish/fishes, and may need to be removed temporarily to ensure that they get the chance to feed unmolested.
Without a spare tank,,these fishes will slowly deteiorate in health, and are much more prone to become sickly. 
This may or may not happen depending on particualr group of fish but if and when it may occur ,and you have no place to separate fishes to,,well it drives some folks crazy to watch things unfold.These large fish can be unmerciful, and poor fish or fishes on recieving end of abuse ,are not always best kept in this type of situation.(sometimes never works out)
Just my two cent's.


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## WendyRob (Feb 9, 2012)

Can any of you tell me the best way to get a discus to start accepting new foods?


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## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

WendyRob said:


> Can any of you tell me the best way to get a discus to start accepting new foods?


patience..

and mixing some of the new food with the old food during feeding


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

I agree with Warlock, 
Is why I have issues with Beef heart,and bloodworms.Fishes can fixate on these foods and refuse other more nutritional foods.
Almost same as other large cichlids once feeder fish make the menu.
Is hard for many,,but sometimes witholding food for a few day's can help them to accept other foods.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

In addition to the 2 very good suggestions made by warlock and roadmaster, you could try adding a little bit of minced fresh garlic to the new food you want them to start taking. That sometimes does the trick.
They're like many of us, they can't resist the aroma & taste of garlic.


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## WendyRob (Feb 9, 2012)

Thank you, guys. Will try all 3 suggestions...

I have another question: I've been told by a LFS that using activated carbon will cause hole in the head disease. Is this true?


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

I don't believe I've heard/read/seen any convincing clinical evidence to that effect.
At any rate, there's no need to ever use activated carbon in a discus tank.
If you're looking for water clarification & purification, removal of tannins, odors, or medications, suggest you use Purigen instead. Is has benefits over carbon, and no potential downsides that carbon may have.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I've heard that but like Paul never read anything to back it up.

I don't use carbon in any tanks unless I'm taking out medicine though so I never had a need to look into it.


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## WendyRob (Feb 9, 2012)

And you don't have to worry about the Purigen removing the nutrients your plants need? I'd sure like to have more water clarity, but I have a planted discus tank...


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

WendyRob said:


> And you don't have to worry about the Purigen removing the nutrients your plants need? I'd sure like to have more water clarity, but I have a planted discus tank...


Ah Wendy, Purigen won't remove plant nutrients. The claims that Seachem makes about Purigen's properties are correct. Read them.
I use Purigen in my discus tank 24/7, and have done so for over 2 years straight. I always have 4 bags on the go - 2 in the filters, and 2 re-charging or resting.
Never had a problem with plant growth due to Purigen, that's for sure.
Don't like to post pics of my tank once again, as I think some of the folks here may get on my back - LOL - but pics are worth a thousand words, and maybe you'd like to see for yourself:
http://s1105.photobucket.com/albums/h357/discuspaul/Sept2011
Others need not look, and forgive me for displaying it once more.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Paul man you show your tank more than anything! 

At least it looks nice, haha.


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

lol i never get tired of looking at it!


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## WendyRob (Feb 9, 2012)

You can post your tank as much as you want, but I've already drooled all over it more than once, Paul :red_mouth

Soooo...My LFS also told me if I remove my tanins then the Peat will not lower my PH effectively. Does anyone know if this is true?


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

TWA said:


> Paul man you show your tank more than anything!
> 
> At least it looks nice, haha.


Yes, I sure do, Tyler - LOL
But I hope most folks understand & appreciate that I don't do it to 'show off' my tank - believe it or not - I do it to give some credence to discus-keepers' questions about substrate, plants, water quality, planted tanks, whatever - to back up & provide at least a little evidence as to what I'm saying or proposing in answering those queries - I'm sure you know where I'm coming from.
I really do believe in pics being worth a thousand words.

Having said all of that, I feel the need to add:

That planted tank of mine gets 3 X weekly approx. 70% wcs, with a complete inside glass wipe-down all around @ each wc, coupled with a meticulous vac of the substrate. I also do vigorous rinsing of all the filter media and pre-filters at least once a week, and media renewals/replacements as needed (e.g. filter floss and re-charged Purigen). The filter boxes and impeller assemblies receive a full clean-up maintenance at least monthly or more often.
I leave no cleansing 'stone' untouched, in order to maintain the highest water quality I can, so that I may, at least partially successfully, grow out young discus without too much growth limitation. Not easy to do.

I'm retired - so have the time on my hands - probably spend up to 6 hours a week on religious maintenance.

Main reason being, I like to keep changing my discus up - I regularly cull slow-growers (give them away or sell them cheap), or I sell some that grow well over 5", and replace them with new 'young-uns'. Since those pics were taken, I think Ive sold at least 4 of them, and have recently brought in 2 new 3" Albino Goldens.
And believe it or not, I can't recall having to medicate any discus more than once or twice over the years I've been keeping them. A lot of that comes from getting excellent stock in the first place.
Hope this rambling on helps some folks a little.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

WendyRob said:


> You can post your tank as much as you want, but I've already drooled all over it more than once, Paul :red_mouth
> 
> Soooo...My LFS also told me if I remove my tanins then the Peat will not lower my PH effectively. Does anyone know if this is true?


 
Wendy, I have not ever used peat in a discus tank, but my understanding from research, is that peat's effectiveness in lowering pH is relatively short-lived anyway, and continuation of that effort requires replenishment with fresh new peat on a regular basis. So, bottom line is, if you use Purigen to remove the tannin development, nothing is really lost, as you should be renewing the peat regularly in any event.
But larger question is, why are you bothering to try lowering your pH for the discus, with peat - are you trying to breed ?
Is your pH that high - i.e. well over 8.0? If not, suggest you consider chucking the peat - unless you really care for the tannin coloration.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I'm just giving you a hard time Paul! People love seeing a good 'scuss tank

If you're kh is real high the ph will drop and just bounce back up. If its not it'll keep it low. A pal of mine breeds his wild apistos using peat to drop the ph.

There's no need for peat in discus water, however, reason being is if you're changing water enough (Paul's 70% three times a week for example) tannins won't build up fast enough and won't do much to the water, since you're just replacing it.

Discus can be raised in ph up to like 9.0 with 500-600 TDS at LEAST. A friend of mine raises his fry with the waste water from his RO. I just use tap. You'd be advised not to mess with water for growing or just owning discus (breeding is the only reason for soft water, ph still doesn't matter) for the fact that the most important factor in discus water is STABILITY. 

Peat moss is pretty worthless in discus tanks, yup


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

discuspaul said:


> Ah Wendy, Purigen won't remove plant nutrients. The claims that Seachem makes about Purigen's properties are correct. Read them.
> I use Purigen in my discus tank 24/7, and have done so for over 2 years straight. I always have 4 bags on the go - 2 in the filters, and 2 re-charging or resting.
> Never had a problem with plant growth due to Purigen, that's for sure.
> Don't like to post pics of my tank once again, as I think some of the folks here may get on my back - LOL - but pics are worth a thousand words, and maybe you'd like to see for yourself:
> ...


Never grow tired of looking at these large ,healthy fishes in comfortable enviornment.roud:


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## thechibi (Jan 20, 2012)

Those look like some happy discuseseseses.


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## WendyRob (Feb 9, 2012)

:icon_redf Well, I'm running peat on the advice of my LFS of course! Silly me, I should have known better...our PH is 7.8 'round these here parts, and they convinced me that peat is my only way to succeed with discus. I put it in my canister before I discovered sites like this where people have discus that look 10000% better than my LFS' discus, so why would I follow LFS advice? I'll be removing it, and that'll give me more room for bio media & Purigen. Thank you, guys! I sure appreciate having people to ask my noob ?s


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Your pH @ 7.8 is just fine for discus - no need to mess with it.


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## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

I know this will not get the Discus to potential size, but will they be stunted (football shape) if you put them in a large tank (6 ft), feed them once a day, and water change once a week?


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Depends on the footprint and gallonage of that 6' tank, how many discus you're putting in it, how heavily, or lightly planted it is, how many other fish are also in it, etc.
But I would say that even if your tank is very lightly stocked with discus, is well filtered and receives good overall maintenance with your once weekly wcs, your chances of producing a greater number of reasonably-sized, normally-shaped discus are no more than fair. 
btw, a stunted discus is not necessarily oddly-shaped (e.g. football-shaped), mainly limited in growth to below average size (e.g. well under 5" at maturity.

If you want to follow the routine you're suggesting, get adult discus, not juvies.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I would feed the fish 2-3x a day min for good growth, water quality is also important for all fish, but food really has the lion's share. Discus are just looked at far closer and bred more than other fish. So folks tend to be pickier about the traits. I do not think they are all that different, the argument is inherently bias as folks bred and judge them more than other species.
Same is true for shrimp breeding and care.

There are some seriously larger questions at play here.

Since breeders/purist are concerned about the appearances of the fish, 
are natural wild fish being used as the gauge for health, body shape and prizes?

No, clearly not. Heiko made mention of this having caught many wild discus over his lifetime. 

These are not even natural attributes, these are HUMAN desired traits, not really stunted fish or natural coloration. Much like cattle, dog and cat breeding. If human desired traits are the metric, then all bets are off. 

Where is that line drawn and who is really correct? Does it not become a matter of personal aesthetics? And are these aesthetic differences not truly "minor" to some, but not others? 

These same criteria are applied to plants and the trade offs often are much less than the critics contend. I think the added effort really gets to a point of diminishing returns. Same with Betta breeding, shrimp breeding etc. This is no longer natural, these are artificially bred animals to select for traits humans like???


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## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

discuspaul said:


> Depends on the footprint and gallonage of that 6' tank, how many discus you're putting in it, how heavily, or lightly planted it is, how many other fish are also in it, etc.
> But I would say that even if your tank is very lightly stocked with discus, is well filtered and receives good overall maintenance with your once weekly wcs, your chances of producing a greater number of reasonably-sized, normally-shaped discus are no more than fair.
> btw, a stunted discus is not necessarily oddly-shaped (e.g. football-shaped), mainly limited in growth to below average size (e.g. well under 5" at maturity.
> 
> If you want to follow the routine you're suggesting, get adult discus, not juvies.


I'm just picking you hardcore discus folk's brain since this topic of Discus keeping is on the front page as I don't have a large tank. When I get it, it would be at least the standard 180g size (72x24x24 ). 

The scenario that I pointed out is what my routine would be and that was being optimistic on the weekly water changing part. 

If I ever get Discus, it would be wild discus. But my 1st choice would be Altums and I would not mix Angels with Discus. It's one or the other.

If I must have a bare bottom tank, I would rather have arowanas, datnoids, and rays. Too bad the rays are illegal here in Cali, but that's just me.

And thanks for answering all my questions. roud:


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## eklu65 (Mar 3, 2011)

Ok, so it's said that wilds look better against darker substrates/backgrounds. Anyone have any pictures of that for an example? Any particular strains of wilds that would look best with darker substrate? 

Also, Indy water isn't very stable. The pH fluctuates all the time, while Kh fluctuates less often, but still more than desirable. I also measure nitrates out of the tap as well consistently. I'm sure there's more in my water that I haven't even measured yet too. Would I be a good candidate for ro/di? I'm of the opinion that I don't necessarily want to set out to specifically have them breed, but I don't want to doom them to failure if they do breed because of my water. 

Btw, I went to the Shedd Aquarium in Chicago last week. They had a South American fresh water exhibit. Tons of severums, a few apistos, and lots of discus. The tank with the most discus actually had an anaconda in it. Biggest snake I've ever seen! That thing had to have weighed as much as a cow. They also had a tank filled with cardinal tetras. That tank was gorgeous! You could see it from a mile away.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

eklu65 said:


> Ok, so it's said that wilds look better against darker substrates/backgrounds. Anyone have any pictures of that for an example? Any particular strains of wilds that would look best with darker substrate?
> 
> Also, Indy water isn't very stable. The pH fluctuates all the time, while Kh fluctuates less often, but still more than desirable. I also measure nitrates out of the tap as well consistently. I'm sure there's more in my water that I haven't even measured yet too. Would I be a good candidate for ro/di? I'm of the opinion that I don't necessarily want to set out to specifically have them breed, but I don't want to doom them to failure if they do breed because of my water.
> 
> Btw, I went to the Shedd Aquarium in Chicago last week. They had a South American fresh water exhibit. Tons of severums, a few apistos, and lots of discus. The tank with the most discus actually had an anaconda in it. Biggest snake I've ever seen! That thing had to have weighed as much as a cow. They also had a tank filled with cardinal tetras. That tank was gorgeous! You could see it from a mile away.


I don't have any examples, mostly as I'm too lazy to look through the Internet on my phone and post! But, think about it, in nature they are in dark environments. No plants, muddy/sand bottom with tree roots covering (until rainy season when they go into the trees) so their natural color is shown when it's darker. As for domesticated, they've been selectively bred to show certain colors, so when they're in a dark environment they show colors that they weren't bred to have. I love the look of tefe discus. Paul will chime in, I believe he has more experience with wilds than I do. More money + more risk = a less interested guy in Kansas City.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

eklu65 said:


> Ok, so it's said that wilds look better against darker substrates/backgrounds. Anyone have any pictures of that for an example? Any particular strains of wilds that would look best with darker substrate?
> 
> Also, Indy water isn't very stable. The pH fluctuates all the time, while Kh fluctuates less often, but still more than desirable. I also measure nitrates out of the tap as well consistently. I'm sure there's more in my water that I haven't even measured yet too. Would I be a good candidate for ro/di? I'm of the opinion that I don't necessarily want to set out to specifically have them breed, but I don't want to doom them to failure if they do breed because of my water.
> 
> Btw, I went to the Shedd Aquarium in Chicago last week. They had a South American fresh water exhibit. Tons of severums, a few apistos, and lots of discus. The tank with the most discus actually had an anaconda in it. Biggest snake I've ever seen! That thing had to have weighed as much as a cow. They also had a tank filled with cardinal tetras. That tank was gorgeous! You could see it from a mile away.


These are actually wilds, not bred in a tank:










The combo of a dark background of plants, with th white sand gave the best coloration, we have LED's and reg FL's in this tank along with 4000W worth of MH's.

Lighting was a huge issue for the client and it paid off.

He has a dozen Bare bottom tanks for quarantine in the next room and feeds the fish well and have his various bag of tricks. But the plant routine is fairly simple and stable. 

The Shedd is still one of the best FW public aquariums I've been to. 

I talked the client out of the darker layout and the gaudy dinner plates which I teased him about with no mercy

Here's the old design and fish:



















Tank and fish look better in the new design.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

TWA said:


> I don't have any examples, mostly as I'm too lazy to look through the Internet on my phone and post! But, think about it, in nature they are in dark environments. No plants, muddy/sand bottom with tree roots covering (until rainy season when they go into the trees) so their natural color is shown when it's darker. As for domesticated, they've been selectively bred to show certain colors, so when they're in a dark environment they show colors that they weren't bred to have. I love the look of tefe discus. Paul will chime in, I believe he has more experience with wilds than I do. More money + more risk = a less interested guy in Kansas City.


Wilds, the real ones, are a whole new level of PITA.
Been there, done this. Breeders do have wild like fish they offer.

I saw some nice ones at Kenny's in Daly City recently.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showt...h-2012-Forrest-shipment-(Price-list-included)

I get most of the fish for local clients from him.

The other guy likes to pick and chose and goes to Germany often.
Good thing he is so into it, because I'm not going that far to get fish.


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## Brian Mc (Feb 9, 2012)

Awesome tank, Tom. Love those wilds, your client made the right choice IMO. roud:


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## eklu65 (Mar 3, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> The combo of a dark background of plants, with th white sand gave the best coloration, we have LED's and reg FL's in this tank along with 4000W worth of MH's.


Ok, I'm convinced.  Plus, lighter substrate would be cheaper and easier to find anyway. 



> Wilds, the real ones, are a whole new level of PITA.
> Been there, done this. Breeders do have wild like fish they offer.


That's really good news! Are these wild like discus still as picky as actual wilds? I actually prefer wild coloration to the man made strains. They just look so much prettier.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

No, Kenny has some and they are MUCH easier to acclimate and feed etc, everything is easier.

This is the other thing, these are all tank bred fish, they are use to the aquarium, they are not like the wild types regarding care. They are use to eating frozen bloodworms and easily take mysid and brine etc, or whatever else you feed. I'm not big on live foods other than brine.


Look or ask Kenny about the stock, he's good, so is Dick Au and Bing Seto, they all live in SF area, I've met them all. If you are better than these guys, then that's really saying something regarding the grade and quality of the fish stock.

They ship and sell fish also. Good starting stock makes a world of difference.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Brian Mc said:


> Awesome tank, Tom. Love those wilds, your client made the right choice IMO. roud:


They where a PITA to acclimate, but he did not care. Likely should have gone with the tank bred versions, but blah......his tank.

He does well with it.

I love the red tail Hemidous, really great fish in a tank like this. This shows they and the other fish in their full glory.


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## Brian Mc (Feb 9, 2012)

Kenny has some really nice fish, I think he is younger and wasn't around back when I was messing around with them. I never met Dick Au but I got to spend some time with Bing back in the mid 90's, he brought me a nice batch of blue diamonds when they were the new thing lol. Great guy, I was just thinking of him the other day. I just went to his discus website and man not a thing has changed since the day it went up 14 years ago lol. I should get up with him and offer him a free upgrade. :biggrin:

I have to say I am partial to the Yang fish that Mike Beals at Central Ohio brings in, if I were to heaven forbid buy a discus these days I would probably be giving him a holler. :angel:

Edit: Wow 4KW of metal halides his electric bill is feeling that


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Bump for Paul. He worked hard on this.

Bump for new folks looking to love discus.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

TWA said:


> Bump for Paul. He worked hard on this.
> 
> Bump for new folks looking to love discus.


Yep, ditto here on that.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

I'm new to discus but this king of fish is awesome to keep. I'm enjoying every minute, thx Paul and others for this thread. Nice nice wild tank Tom. Not feelin the angels though


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## thechibi (Jan 20, 2012)

King of fish.  That is awesome. I'd love to see one with a little crown. They definitely are regal.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

They've been dubbed king of the aquarium. Beautiful fish yeah


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Thanks for the recent bump, TWA.

The thread immediately below was started by me a couple of days ago, but didn't get much readership for whatever reason, so I thought I'd copy & paste it here to hopefully keep this thread going - here it is:






As a follow-up to my discus guide, and to give any of you who are interested and are seriously thinking of setting up a discus tank, i felt it would be worthwhile to advise you of some of the best supply sources for getting good quality discus in n.a.

And as i've said several times before, ensuring you get the best quality, healthy, well-shaped discus, accounts for the lion's share of being successful keeping discus.

That means avoiding any questionable sources, and getting your discus only from well-known, experienced, reputable and fully reliable retail suppliers of good quality discus.

It's a fact that the vast majority of knowledgeable discus-keepers in the U.S. and Canada buy their stock from such retail sources, usually having them air-shipped to their locations, across the country if need be.

The following is just a partial list of well-known, fully reputable commercial/wholesale discus breeders and exporters, from whom many n.a. retailers get their stock. This list is far from representative of anywhere near the gamut of quality discus breeders around the world, but will give you a grounding on, arguably, some of the better name sources.

Within each list i have also named a couple of well-known reputable importers and retailers of these quality farm-bred fish, from whom you may order, air-shipped to wherever you reside. Most of these retailers are sponsors on simplydiscus.com forum, and i believe they all have websites where you can view their gallery of stock, get prices, and any other info you may need. You may order from them online, by email, phone, or in person if you are near their location.

A small disclaimer - I make no guarantees as to the accuracy or completeness of this info, which is to the best of my knowledge at this time. As you know, this type of info is subject to change over time, and my sources may not have been updated recently.

And please keep in mind that this post is simply intended to provide a listing of quality discus importers which retail in the U.S. and Canada, and does not touch on many good local breeders of discus throughout north america who work real hard, and do produce high quality discus that beginners can get their young stock from, thus getting a good start into discus-keeping.


- Discus Forrest - Malaysia
Forrest has gained an excellent reputation for being one of the top breeder/exporters of quality discus. Among others, in the U.S., Kenny's Discus - Kenny Cheung - of Daly City, Ca., and in Canada, Canadian Aqua Farm - Rick Grange- of Vancouver, b.c., carry Forrest discus. These two retail dealers are high on the list of premier discus suppliers in their respective countries.



- Jeffrey Yang discus - Malaysia
Yang produces high quality discus, and importing retailers of these fish include Central Ohio Discus - Mike Beals - of Galena, Ohio, and Upper Canada Discus -Bob Garside - of Barrie, Ont., Canada.


- Wayne NG discus - Hong Kong
NG's fine discus are known pretty much around the world, and his discus importers include Elite Aquaria - Dan Espinosa - of Weston, Fla., New Jersey Discus (Rod & Bob), and Upper Canada Discus in Barrie, Ont.


- Tony Tan - Malaysia
also a producer of quality discus, Tan's discus are imported by Kingdom Come discus in Lexington, Kentucky, u.s.a. I have since had an update here, and it may be that Kingdom Come Discus does not presently carry Tony Tan discus. You could check. 

- Stendker Discus - Germany
German breeders have been exporting high quality discus for many years, and Stendker is renowned as one of the best. The premier u.s. Importer of these fish is the very well-known and reputable Hans' Discus of Baltimore, Maryland. In Canada, Aquarium du Nord, Montreal, P.Q. imports Stendker fish, as well as April's Aquarium in Vancouver, B.C..

- Alex Piwowarski discus - Germany
also regarded as a premier german breeder/exporter, his discus are imported by, among others, Central Ohio Discus in the u.s., and Discus House, P.Q., in Canada.

- Jack Wattley discus - USA
I would be remiss if i did not mention that Jack Wattley, of Miami, Fla. was breeding and retailing fine quality discus for many years, and his fish were sought by discus enthusiasts across america and elsewhere. Jack Wattley is now in his 80's, but still writes a column on discus in TFH magazine. He sold his majority interest in his Miami operation to Gabe Posada (his former breeder head) many years ago, (he still has a piece, I understand) but I do also understand the Jack Wattley name has been carried on well by Gabe, and that operation is still a good source for getting quality discus.


Keep in mind there are many other good quality discus breeders and exporters in the world, and some other countries which are producing fine discus include Singapore, Taiwan, Vietnam, and Thailand.

The retailers named above are well-known to have gained a solid reputation for supplying quality stock, they follow impeccable shipping practices, all but guarantee 100% live delivery of their livestock, and their prices are reasonable too !

All the best of luck to you in your discus-keeping endeavors. Contact me if i can provide any further information.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Bump, questions about discus made me bump this, a good read for a beginner


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## JasonG75 (Mar 1, 2011)

I have always wanted to have Discus in my 75 planted tank. However the presents of Angel (my favorite) has always stopped me. 
Thanks so much for putting this together.

When my Angels do "go" I will want to replace them with Discus. Can we talk about compatibility? I am not interested really in a Species only tank, so what else can I put with them?

Also I have noticed in some of the LFS Algae looking spots on Discus. Is this Algae?

thanks again


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

How big are these spots? Tiny? It's just peppering mostly likely (hopefully.......................)

Fish that go with them... Healthy fish. 

They can and will eat other fish if they're hungry enough, but mine have paid no attention to a couple ghost shrimp that made their way in there, corydoras, bristlenose plecos, or guppy fry, they actually let them grow up in the tank with them until adulthood. Any fish small enough to be eaten is a risk I suppose.

Nothing aggressive, nothing too fast and active. Both with stress the discus and stressed discus = soon to be sick disxus


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## blackandyellow (Jul 1, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> These are actually wilds, not bred in a tank:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


DROOOL at the current setup... That is ONE amazing discus tank. I love the wild discus, they look much better than the artificially bred colors. The one thing I don´t like is the white Angelfish... if it was a silver one then I´d love it.

I have one discus left (I had 6 over two years ago) in a 60 gal tank. They died of one or another thing over the two year period. The last one, I just moved him to my planted tank that houses 4 angelfish (2 adult breeding pairs). To my surprise the discus totally fluorished in the planted tank, he´s the boss and king of the tank, gets his share of food with no problems and has an awesome color.

To the one who mentioned Angelfish are schooling fish... no they are not. only juveniles. As soon as they mature they pair up and look for their own territories and will fight other Angels away. Adults never school toghether, not even when they are scared. They actually fight a lot (specially males).


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Nice of you to bump this thread, Tyler, (that's TWA, btw), it would really be nice to carry it on if it helps new discus-keepers get started properly. And I must say your posts are very helpful and on the mark !

And just a note for you, JasonG, many discus-keepers have kept Angels compatibly with discus. If you perform a good quarantine, there's no reason why you can't be successful doing so - I would urge you to give it a go.
If you don't want to risk it, and you're willing to let the Angels go, then there are many other compatible tankmates for discus. 
Cardinals, Rummy-Noses, Lemon Tetras, Cories, GB Rams, BNP's, the list goes on.
Please don't hesitate to contact me if you have any queries or thoughts about getting into discus. Be glad to try and help out.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I did not even connect that Jason didn't want to put discus with angels. Just treat the Angels with some Prazipro and you'll be okay. The angels may carry a parasite that they can live with for a while, while the discus will go downhill fast. 

They also aggressive eaters (discus are as well) so you've got to make sure there's enough food for the discus. 

Other than that, all is well with discus and angels!

And you're welcome, Paul (discus Paul  )

I enjoy this thread, it's nice at least


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Apologies, TWA, didn't mean to flaunt, or expose, your true identity, just wanted to ensure the folks know who you are in real life ! LOL Hope you don't mind.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

One of these days people will guess what TWA stands for and how old I am and then I'll really be in bad shape.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Okay - so now that we're trying to keep this thread going, are there any other questions, out of the blue, that anyone else would like to ask ?
Absolutely anything that relates to a discus tank, particularly if you want to try keeping discus in a planted environment - I'd be glad to try and answer.
Shoot !


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## LB79 (Nov 18, 2011)

OK, here's a real wide shot in the darkest of dark: how about breeding discus in a planted tank? I might want to try this in the future. Mine are about 3+ inches right now and growing steadily with multiple daily feedings and multiple weekly water changes. Not the best method, I know, but I am FAR too busy (school, sports, AND my other fish) and poor ($$$ or lack thereof) for the extra care of show-quality fish (which someday I do want to partake in). I understand this will be a more-than-worthy challenge, and want to meet it accordingly.

EDIT: The tank's a 55. I know, I should have at least a 300 gallon, but again, there's that money thing...


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

In regards to breeding discus in a planted tank, you're up for a real challenge. Maybe not you, but the fish. You will have no problem getting pairs, and subsequently spawns from your fish. This is where the challenge begins.

Im assuming your water is soft enough for the eggs to hatch.

Your fish will be young when they begin, so having a successful hatch may take months. I'm talking 4-5 months if frustration with them spawning every week and eating the eggs before hatch time. Discus have some anxiety with other fish In the tank and often won't even let the eggs hatch.

If you ever get them to hatch, the fry will probably have a hard time attaching, again the fish will eat them before they get to the point of attachment.

If they attach, which wouldn't be unheard of but isn't likely, they will be picked off by every other fish in the tank until they're gone, then they just lay more eggs

Breeding discus isn't hard. It's raising quality fry that's hard. A lot do 1-2 100% water changes a day to keep them growing fast, with 8 feedings a day.

I got sick of work to produce nice fry from discus, and put them back in the community tank.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

LB79 said:


> OK, here's a real wide shot in the darkest of dark: how about breeding discus in a planted tank? I might want to try this in the future. Mine are about 3+ inches right now and growing steadily with multiple daily feedings and multiple weekly water changes. Not the best method, I know, but I am FAR too busy (school, sports, AND my other fish) and poor ($$$ or lack thereof) for the extra care of show-quality fish (which someday I do want to partake in). I understand this will be a more-than-worthy challenge, and want to meet it accordingly.
> 
> EDIT: The tank's a 55. I know, I should have at least a 300 gallon, but again, there's that money thing...


No reason why not. Adult discus placed into a planted environment, particularly a proven mated pair, would likely spawn if they are comfortable in their surroundings and with the tank's water quality. It's been done many times, so it seems.
Question is, how do you deal with raising the fry properly once the spawning has successfully occured, and the fry are 'weaned' from surviving on the parents' slime coats. It certainly has been done, so I've read, but I can't comment on the logistics ! lol


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

There's Paul again! Following me up! 

I'm not going to preach to you about quality care, but I do want to know how many discus you have in a 55 gallon? A 300 gallon could house like, 40 discus! Did you shove 40 discus in a 55?! Are they laying on each other?! 

Jokes aside, what is it, like 6?

I understand the too busy thing, I'm at two jobs while working two jobs adding to around 50-60 hours a week, plus school, plus balancing a relationship with a lady I actually kind of like. PLUS I'm a huge baseball fan, and that just started. I find holding the hose during a water change to be relaxing. Gives me a chance to take a break. Although, my other fish don't get any care since I'm so busy


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## LB79 (Nov 18, 2011)

Haha, no, not quite forty. I've four in there, all about 3 inches (some are a little over, some are a little under; hard to get exact measurements). They get along surprisingly well after their first initial pecking-order establishment. The reason I said 300 gallons is cause 'the bigger, the better'.

Their tankmates are 6 bronze cories, 16 (there were initially 21) narrow wedge rasboras (I think these will be consumed before too long), 6 otos (don't worry, I've been shadowing these in relation to the slimesucking stuff, no action yet), an SAE (been watching it too), and some amano shrimp (no real estimate here, but I do see one or two every other day or so). Not the hugest bioload (yet). 

If I do end up with a pair, I'll probably sell/give away the remaining ones on Aquabid or S&S here. My water is GH 40-50 ppm, KH 30-40 ppm, pH 6.9-7.0, 82˚F. Apistogramma spp have no problem breeding in it, and their eggs are around 95% viable, if that says anything.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

40-50 is a good number for ppm for discus. If it means anything to you; I've yet to experience discus eating another fish. I had 3 week old endler fry I didn't want moved in with the discus, they grew to adulthood real quick with all the food and water changes, not one was eaten out of 5.

Four in a 55 isn't that much but I don't know if I would add anymore fish if you catch my drift, you may be pushing it. Sounds like you've got a good idea as to what you're doing


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## LB79 (Nov 18, 2011)

I figured once they reach 6 inches the bioload will be maxed out...

The disappearing rasboras could have been due to a very large male Apistogramma cruzi. He and his mate were removed after they spawned and just laid into the discus and corydoras mercilessly. I can't blame them, as both the discus and the cories were showing real interest in their young.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

It's been a month since LB's last post, and I was thinking that perhaps the thread might be revived a bit, and be useful to others who missed reading it initially, and who may have other questions regarding discus care, or from some newcomers to the forum who might have an interest in keeping discus in a planted environment.
Any queries or comments out there ? I'm sure the group here would be happy to help out.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I was thinking about bumping this the other day. Always willing to help


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## LS6 Tommy (May 13, 2006)

I'm reading a lot of stuff in a lot of posts that seem to be just short of argumentative... I'm not trying to start any new fights, I'm just posting some alternative thoughts on some loosely tossed around "Laws"-

1. Bare bottom tanks are a necessity-

Only for growing the discus out because of the high frequency of feeding. A planted tank could be a real pain to clean 3-5 times a day.

2. RO or DI water must be used & it has to have xx Ph, xx hardness, etc-

Maybe for wild strains or wild caught. Recreating similar water parameters to the fish breeders water is more important than how it was filtered beforehand. A firstmtimer needn't run out & spend $200.00 on a filtering syatem. Stendker is one of the worlds foremost disus breeders & their discus are considered to be of the highest quality. They use TAP water...

3. Minimum school of 5. This means a BIG tank-

Going back to Stendker again, they recommend 10-12 discus (+ tankmates) for a 40 gallon tank (although it sure seems really STEEP to me) as they are schooling fish & are calmer in large groups. 

4. Don't put discus into a planted tank until they're 4" or larger or you will stunt their growth-

Discus should reach adult size in 1.5 years when properly fed. If yours aren't at least 4" in around 9 months, they're already stunted.

5. Discus can't be "happy" in a planted tank. They need space to swim-

They come from ridiculously heavily overgrown, relatively shallow waters (excepting captive bred).

6. Temperature must be so high, plants & other types of fish won't survive-

76-78* is fine. Just acclimate fish slowly. You can find plants for that range, even warmer. Any fish or plant from the same territory as a discus will also be fine.

7. People who don't keep discus in a bare bottom tank & do 50% weekly water changes are not treating the fish properly-

I'm no expert breeder, but I HAVE had quite a few unplanned broods in planted tanks that I treated no differently than my non-discus tanks & have kept happy, round, brightly colored, large discus on & off for going on 25 years...



Again, not trying to start anything, just throwing some alternative thoughts up in the air...

Tommy


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

There's no rules when you're an expert. After 25 years you could raise them in buckets if it works for you. But as a beginner, I wouldn't put recommend putting 12 discus in a 40 breeder, or raising them in a planted tank if you want the best looking fish. 

There's tons of ways to do it for experienced folks, but for those who arent, there's tried and true methods to raising high quality discus. 

Not fighting, with all respects.


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## pandacory (Apr 18, 2011)

Had to invite the random qs? Well here is one, or several...even though I'm still probably a few years from discus, in terms of skill and having space for large tank...

What about rainbows as tankmates? I've seen pictures of various rainbows with discus but no commentary. Any experience? They definitely go against the "no fast movers" rule. Any guidelines on max rainbow size to discus size? Tank set up and stocking ratios to make it easier? Figure the discus should outsizes and outnumber rainbows with plenty of swim and hide space, but no experience, I just like both, and have this crazy idea of building the collection toward an end goal, since fish live longer than how long I hope it will take me to get the discus tank.


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## LB79 (Nov 18, 2011)

LS6 Tommy said:


> I'm reading a lot of stuff in a lot of posts that seem to be just short of argumentative... I'm not trying to start any new fights, I'm just posting some alternative thoughts on some loosely tossed around "Laws"-
> 
> 1. Bare bottom tanks are a necessity-
> 
> ...


Some good points. I believe the key things are 1) the best genetics, and 2) clean water and tiptop feeding for the first 3 1/2 inches of their life (bare-bottom grow-out tanks). After that, they are 'just another cichlid': tough (within reason), occasionally mean, and possessing that singularly cichlidian lust to live that is lacking in other fish (no offense to the non-cichlid fans here; I've simply found cichlids to be creatures of higher being than the other fish I keep). 

On the temperature, there is a strain of discus that hails from Peru; the same waters as the neon tetra and many Corydoras spp., both fish that like water no warmer than 78˚F. These discus thrive at water of 75-80˚F. Could it be that our domesticated strains are descended from these as well as the further-south Brazilian discus? My discus have been living well in water that is 79˚F, and they are feeding and growing well, with no real signs of stunting yet. The lower temperature should keep their metabolism at a lower rate, allowing for less feeding to achieve that same unique 'discus' shape. Wouldn't it be nice to have a discus that could look as great without so much maintenance?


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

My expierience with cooler temps for Discus did indeed result in slower metabolisim with young fish = slower growth, along with slower digestive process and sometimes bloated fish. 
Just relating my observation's.
Not much plant matter where these fishes are located in the wild, according to literature .
Mostly tangled root wads from trees,plant's that grow along the bank.
Is as I have said to many ,,all about your expectation's with regards to care for these fish. 
You can keep goldfish in a bowl,eagle in a bird cage, but would not expect much in return.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I did mean to comment I was under the impression there was very little plant matter where these fish come from. From what I've read at least until the forest floods then they just have the submerged terrestrial plants?

I don't like keeping them at lower temperatures since the slow metabolism means they're less active. I don't like looking at them and they're just floating stationary, I want to see swimming! Just set up an auto feeder, have it go off 5 times a day and feed them frozen once or twice, easy easy


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

pandacory said:


> Had to invite the random qs? Well here is one, or several...even though I'm still probably a few years from discus, in terms of skill and having space for large tank...
> 
> What about rainbows as tankmates? I've seen pictures of various rainbows with discus but no commentary. Any experience? They definitely go against the "no fast movers" rule. Any guidelines on max rainbow size to discus size? Tank set up and stocking ratios to make it easier? Figure the discus should outsizes and outnumber rainbows with plenty of swim and hide space, but no experience, I just like both, and have this crazy idea of building the collection toward an end goal, since fish live longer than how long I hope it will take me to get the discus tank.


Your thinking is definitely on the right track.

Many discus-keepers' experiences indicate that, generally speaking, very active, fast-moving tankmates for discus can tend to often startle the slow-moving discus, stressing them over time, leading to health issues.

Rainbows could fall into that category, but that's not necessarily so, as some discus-keepers do keep them successfully with discus. Large numbers of the fast-movers could be a big negative factor as well.
But I believe the general consensus is that it depends on when they are introduced, and how large the Rainbows are vs. the size and age of the discus, and how many there are of each species.
I would expect that if the discus are in the tank first and have become quite comfortable with their surroundings, and a modest number of Rainbows of a smaller size (not full grown, adult size) are introduced afterwards, the chances of them co-habitating harmoniously together would be that much greater.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

LS6 Tommy said:


> I'm reading a lot of stuff in a lot of posts that seem to be just short of argumentative... I'm not trying to start any new fights, I'm just posting some alternative thoughts on some loosely tossed around "Laws"-
> 
> 1. Bare bottom tanks are a necessity-
> 
> ...


Here's my take on your comments, Tommy:

#1 - Agree with your comments about BB tanks - right on.

#2 - Again, agree with your comments.

#3 - Yes, there is more harmonious discus compatability in keeping 5 or more together, so yes, that begs the need for a larger tank.
As for numbers I would only keep 10-12 discus in a 40 gal tank if they were smaller juvies, e.g. 2" -3 " (or less), but only temporarily. They'd definitely need larger quarters once the reached the 3" size.

#4 - Not necessarily so, but SOME of a group of smaller discus grown out in a planted tank may experience slower, more limited growth, with potential stunting of a minority number of them.

#5 - The first line statement is nonsense. ( I know that's not your comment).

#6 - Lower temp than 80 -82 F may be just fine for some types of wilds, but there have been a number of studies done by discus experts who have found through long term trial experiences that maintaining domestics at constant temps below 80 did in fact generally produce negative growth and development factors in many discus.

#7 - That's a general statement, and not necessarily so. (again, not your comment, Tommy). This can have some validity under certain specific circumstances, but is a bit of nonsense in other situations - e.g. adult discus being kept in a planted tank with 50% weekly wcs may very well thrive.

A good post - that's my .02


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## sphack (May 2, 2012)

After spending far too long reading this entire thread on my phone, I just wanted to say Thanks! Some day I want to get discus.

Bump!


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

*Fresh look re-scape of my tank*

Just completed a modest re-scape of my discus tank, and thought you folks might like to have a look-see:

http://s1105.photobucket.com/albums/h357/discuspaul/lolliblues

Recently sold a couple of my earlier discus, and gave 3 others to my daughter. Then promptly went out & got some new Forrest Standing Egg Blue Diamonds and some Golden Lollipops - hope you like them as much as I do.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

There's Paul showing off the tank again! 

 just kidding. That looks incredibly fun to look at and observe. I too, did a rescape of my tank, and might show that later. 

How old is this post? Couple weeks? How'd I miss it..


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## QuoVadis (Feb 5, 2012)

I have never kept discus, mainly due to what I had heard about them, their price, and frankly as a rule I'm not fond of many of the colors they come in. But recently I saw a neon blue discus that has made me reconsider keeping them. Having said this, it seems to me that fish are fish. Pay attention to their needs and they will pay you back with a long, healthy life.

Needs:
#1. Good water quailty. Slack on this and it doesn't matter if everything else is perfect, your fish will have problems.

#2. Good quality and variety in food. Most fish don't eat only one thing in nature, and ours shouldn't either. Even complete foods really need to be supplmented and rotated.

#3. Understanding specific needs of your fish, i.e. temp, water params, natural social structure, natural external habitat. I put this as number 3 because I think most fish, given #1 and #2, can adapt to changes in this area. But sometimes they can't, or at least won't trive, so you need to know you fish and know if that pH will have to change or if they can deal with it, etc.

It seems to me if you follow especially #1 and 2, and try to accomodate #3 needs, discus should be like other fish, at least as adults.

After sharing these general thoughts I do have a question for the discus keepers. I know they are schooling, and prefer companions of their own kind, however they are cichlids, which in my experience also do well being "top dog" in a peaceful(ish) tank. In fact, I think this generally is better than keeping a small number (2-4) of cichlids. Why couldn't one be kept like this in a peaceful community, where all the fish are smaller and more peaceful than them? They wouldn't have anything to make them feel threatened, so it seems like they should be able to adapt, but I've always heard you should keep more than one, the more the better. Thoughts?


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Quo Vadis:
Keeping only 2 to 4 discus MAY potentially be a recipe for undesirable and problematic aggression issues with discus, and it usually is. 
Keeping just one has been done successfully many times, but discus are generally significantly more comfortable and compatible in groups of 5 or more, so keeping just a single discus USUALLY makes for a very unhappy camper, which likely will not thrive without the presence of others. 
Nothing to say you shouldn't try it - simply observe it's behavior over a few months - that should tell you whether it's advisable to carry on with just one, or not.


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## hexapod (Jun 14, 2012)

What a fantastic tank! I hope one day too put one together as beautiful as this. (Tom's pics from the first page)


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## Stuart Chrystie (Jun 16, 2018)

What lighting schedule do you have for your planted tank and what type of lighting


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Stuart Chrystie said:


> What lighting schedule do you have for your planted tank and what type of lighting



Who's planted tank are you referring to specifically, Stuart ?


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