# Little Red Worms.....



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Pour bleach in it to kill the worms. Once they're dead, rinse and use X2 dechlor. Move the tank to another location and check it in a couple of days. No worms? The you're good to go.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Probably mosquito larvae. Fish would love them.


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## AEWHistory (Nov 6, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> Probably mosquito larvae. Fish would love them.


Honestly, that's the sort of thing that I was kinda hoping for, which is why I haven't KOed the lot yet. Still, I want to be as sure as I can before doing anything further. I've also wondered if they might be early stages of bloodworms/midge larvae. Problem is, I've never seen (or noticed) any bloodworm except those that were fairly far along in development. 

This corkscrew swimming motion is what gets me wondering and I was hoping it might tip someone off. 



I'm 99% sure they aren't Tubifex; I've read that they don't swim.
They are too red to be Blackworms.
I might still have some mosquito larvae outside, I'll take a close look at them...
Do Camallanus swim? If so, any distinctive motions?
Anything else worm-esque I should consider?
Thanks for the feedback....

-Aaron


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## AEWHistory (Nov 6, 2008)

Complexity said:


> Pour bleach in it to kill the worms. Once they're dead, rinse and use X2 dechlor. Move the tank to another location and check it in a couple of days. No worms? The you're good to go.


Thanks for the advice. If it comes to that, then that is what I'll do, although I'd like to hold off another day or two in the hopes of resolving this. I wouldn't mind avoiding the work :redface: but also, any live edibles for the fish are nice to have, so maybe these will turn out to be something neat.... probably not....

On another note, I found my first leech not along ago... woohoo.... wait... why am I woohooing?


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## AEWHistory (Nov 6, 2008)

I have another tidbit to add to this. I noticed this evening that they are making a home in the substrate on the bottom on the aquarium, almost like worms in the ocean do, living in tiny little 'burrows' in between the gravel. When I when to poke at them, they immediately retreating into what I can only describe as a bolt hole. I am more and more intrigued...

I'll get pics in the next couple days...


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Pics would be great. It would be interesting to find out what they are. Any idea how they could get in the tank? And how would a leach get in? Where are your tanks located and what substrate are you using?

What you are describing is certainly not mosquito larva.

The only concern I would have for these worms becoming live food is that they could harbor diseases that would infect the fish. It's known to happen. So even if you do identify them and they are fish edible, I'd be concerned as to whether they're safe.


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## AEWHistory (Nov 6, 2008)

Complexity said:


> Pics would be great. It would be interesting to find out what they are. Any idea how they could get in the tank? And how would a leach get in? Where are your tanks located and what substrate are you using?
> 
> What you are describing is certainly not mosquito larva.
> 
> The only concern I would have for these worms becoming live food is that they could harbor diseases that would infect the fish. It's known to happen. So even if you do identify them and they are fish edible, I'd be concerned as to whether they're safe.


Oops, I just realized that one of my comments wasn't clear. I found the leech in a specimen container where I had put some plants and snails for holding. All of a sudden one day I noticed this clear looking 'thing' slowly chasing (well, it was a slow chase... :tongue: ) this smallish snail around the container, so I went and started investigating what it was. It moved sort of like an inch worm: its butt would remain anchored while the head would search around, anchor, and the butt would follow, anchor itself, and the head would lift and begin searching again. It could also really stretch itself... so I'm almost sure it was a leech; I think a plant leech actually. Anyway, I took it out, but it was about to reproduce I think as it had about 6 to 10 little seed looking dots inside of itself that I think were babies. Of course, I could be way off... :confused1: But anyway, the leech was a few weeks ago; sorry that I wasn't clear.

Anyway, back to the worms: Yea, sorry I've been so slow about the pics. I'm in the middle of finishing the move to our house here and we've only unpacked about 20-30% of our stuff, so I honestly have no idea where the cameras are and when they'll turn up. I can try the cell, but I don't know how to transfer the image to the PC to upload... I think it has a flash card port. Still, the image quality is bound to be poor to mediocre at best, so I haven't been exactly inspired to go this route, but I'll try it... I just need to find the right flash card and buy it I think.

As for the worms themselves, you make a good point, and this is even more reason to move with extreme caution. I probably wouldn't even be considering using them as 'food' except that I've already been experimenting culturing blackworms--poorly I might add--so I've had them around. So if these are just the result of a few Blackworms that ended up in this tank and literally 'took off,' I'd hate to throw away what might be a strong colony. I just can't remember ever doing anything that would lead to any Blackworms being in this tank... :icon_conf

A few more small bits of information until I get some pics:

1. I've now noticed/discovered that some of the larger worms are definitely red, while some are brown. However, these look physically the same to me and both inhabit the substrate in their little bolt holes. 

2. The smaller worms seem to all be red, but they are so thin that color is a little difficult to tell. These are the corkscrew swimmers; the larger ones make no effort at all to swim and/or leave the substrate. Could the small worms be babies of the larger worms? Or are they a different species entirely? 

3. I entirely concur that these are not mosquito larvae. While I've never seen or experienced all of the developmental stages of the mosquito's larvae, this just doesn't seem.. right. Also, they don't look right to me...

4. As to how they could have gotten in, this was a holding tank that I've used for weeks, first to cultivate cycling bacteria, then to hold specimens of animals and plants, and finally to seed my aquariums with said bacteria, plants, and animals over time before allowing. So I used it partly as a QT tank, and partly as a holding tank. So I think there were a few opportunities for something to have crept in as items came and went from the aquarium. The odd thing is that I paid _alot _of attention to this little aquarium and never noticed anything until after it sat sorta unused for a couple weeks. Only then did things get 'wormy.'

Thanks for reading my verbose postings....

-Aaron


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I'm beginning to wonder if these worms are a different kind of leech? Take a look at the picture linked below.

http://www.magiccarpetjournals.com/borneo-jungle/leech-1.jpg

And also read the information listed as 36a (35). The 2 cm size is about 3/4" which also seems to fit.

http://www.aecos.com/CPIE/inv_02.html#35


If you found one leech, perhaps there were other leeches hitchhiking on a plant that wasn't obvious until it reproduced. It would be helpful to determine how quickly a leech like that can reproduce since it would have to be fairly quickly given the numbers of the worms you have.

But this all begs the question of where in the heck did you get plants (or whatever) that had leeches? 

I completely understand the camera issue. I just moved, as well, and finally found my camera. I couldn't find it when I looked for it, but ran across it when I was looking for something else (which I also could not find!).


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I also found this short video of a leech swimming. This particular leach isn't as small as the worms you're describing, but maybe you can tell if this is similar to the swimming to the worms you have.

Quicktime movie: http://www.ucsd.tv/greymatters/movies/swim.mov


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Burrowing into the substrate doesn't sound like mosquito larvae.

Have you looked through the "bug" sticky at the top of the shrimp forum?

And have you googled "planaria"?


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## Crystalview (Aug 10, 2007)

I have these I have been told that they are either oligochaete or nematods.


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## airborne_r6 (May 2, 2008)

Crystalview said:


> I have these I have been told that they are either oligochaete or nematods.


That only narrows it down to over 25,000 possible species many of which are capable of laying 100,00 eggs a day. Nematodes are so prevalent that if nothing else remained "it has been said, they would still preserve the outline of the planet and many of its features." Straight out of my biology book. My test this week includes nematodes and oligochaetes. The spiral swimming action described might be nematodes. My book describes their action as "thrashing". If they are nematodes one end should be blunt while the other is tapered and they should not appear segmented. Oligochaetes are segmented. Common earth worms are oligochaetes. If they are nematodes they are most likely just decomposers which would explain why they are in your substrate. However, some nematodes are parasites. Trichinosis in humans, from undercooked pork, is caused by nematodes.


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## thief (Jan 12, 2008)

Hmm I have these things in my 20g Tank. Hundreds of them are in the substrate. Only thing is that I never seen them on the glass up top. I will have to take a picture but they are hair thin, red, and pretty long. They stretch out to about 2cm. I have had these guys for about 6 months. But I doubt they are mosquito larvae. My room is inclosed most of the time and sine they've been they're so long would they have hatch?

This weekend I will take some shots as I've research and came up with little on it.


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## AEWHistory (Nov 6, 2008)

Complexity said:


> But this all begs the question of where in the heck did you get plants (or whatever) that had leeches?
> 
> I completely understand the camera issue. I just moved, as well, and finally found my camera. I couldn't find it when I looked for it, but ran across it when I was looking for something else (which I also could not find!).


I'll respond to the rest of your post later as there is some good stuff there, but I've been racking my head trying to think about the where aspect and I think I nailed it. Fairly early on I wanted some floaters and stopped by a LFS here in Trenton (I'll leave out the name for now...) Because it was the end of summer at the time, they gave me a pretty good clump of Water Lettuce and Duckweed for $2, so I put a goodly portion in the 10gal. we've been talking about, I put some more in the 5gal. next to it, and I had a little extra, so I simply put that in a specimen container until I could decide what to do with it. That is when and where I found my leech and the snail chase (I still think it sounds funny...). So even though a number of other plants have come thru that tank since then, this seems like the most likely culprit. That also means, however, that you're probably correct about these being leeches.... and that sucks.... :hihi: 

BTW, I appreciate the understanding about the camera. Frankly, the move has made this semester a nightmare. To top it off, my wife and I were also in a car accident about two months ago, my arm has been hurt from said accident, I keep reinjuring it working on the house... I could go on. Anyway, progress has been slow and frustrating.... but that's what a move is all about... isn't it? :icon_wink


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## AEWHistory (Nov 6, 2008)

I think I know what they are!!!!

They're Polcheates; Detritus Worms. There _might_ be some Tubeficids mixed in. This makes so much sense. I have effectively left this aquarium stagnant after I no longer needed it. So I inadvertently created ideals conditions for these worms to thrive.... check out some of these articles:

http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/03/trematodes-and-nematodes-in-fish.html

This one discusses aquatic annelids that burrow into the substrate, just like Polycheates in the ocean:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www3.sympatico.ca/drosera1/fish/worms.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.plecofanatics.com/articles/showentry.php%3Fe%3D321&usg=__OsJx7_yKyXIbclcpkxrs9ZC3h8c=&h=581&w=800&sz=112&hl=en&start=1&sig2=US1Z7RrHfO1J-3iNYPUzTA&um=1&tbnid=vnFx9a-uFQJ0KM:&tbnh=104&tbnw=143&ei=E_YkSb-QB6jYefqHkQc&prev=/images%3Fq%3Daquatic%2Bannelids%2Baquarium%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

Okay, so this isn't 100% yet, but I'd be interested to know of anyone else's experience with these critters as I am leaning toward these....

Thanks!


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## AEWHistory (Nov 6, 2008)

One more addition:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/drosera1/fish/worms.htmm

This link mentions an 'S' type swimming motion. Yea, this is sounding more and more right....


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## Crystalview (Aug 10, 2007)

Great links!
Along with the red worms I have black leeches. I reduced my feed to 5 sinking wafers and feeding California black worms 2x a day only a small tablespoon. I do a deep vac with a magnum hot shot and with having these worm (leeches) for months nothing seems to help. I wonder if they are also the reason I can not get rid of my diatoms. So far my water stays 0, 0, 4


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## AEWHistory (Nov 6, 2008)

Crystalview said:


> Great links!
> Along with the red worms I have black leeches. I reduced my feed to 5 sinking wafers and feeding California black worms 2x a day only a small tablespoon. I do a deep vac with a magnum hot shot and with having these worm (leeches) for months nothing seems to help. I wonder if they are also the reason I can not get rid of my diatoms. So far my water stays 0, 0, 4


The Magnum Hot Shot, is that the canister filter with the paper cart., sort of like a vacuum? 

Oh, about the Blackworms, I've done a little more research and I've almost sure that some of the so-called Blackworms that my LFS so me are/were in fact a kind of Tubifex. Mind you, I'm not done researching this, so this is an early conclusion, but I'm basing this on a few things, but primarily that some of the worms I've got emulate these Detritus Worms, just as Polychaetes and/or Tubifex would do (this is where my science knowledge gets shaky, because I think Tubifex _is _a Polych., but I forget...). Anyway, if your LFS did the same to you, and I've read this is fairly common, then every time you feed ''blackworms" you are adding to the substrate worm population any worms that aren't immediately eaten. 

So besides the introduction of Det. Worms, leeches, and so on on, say, plants, it is entirely possible that this why the worms are/were so hard to get rid of. This is speculative, but what do you think?

As for the diatoms, I feel totally ignorant about algae issues. Since I've returned to the hobby I've been blessed with not having to face any algae problems... instead I've had almost all the other problems... :icon_roll so I've really not had to research algae much at all. Hmmm, I just cursed myself, didn't I? Damn....


As a sidenote, sorry to everyone for my posts above being, well, poorly edited and the links being wonky, especially the first. I was just so tired and excited last night that I just kinda rushed. For those who'd like a working link:

Aquarium-Pond-Answers Article dealing with Detritus Worms (scroll down)


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I've read old school articles where they introduced tubifex and other worms in the tank on purpose.. And then let a stable population to establish.

And then fish were introduced. The worms would be good snacks for the fishes.


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## Crystalview (Aug 10, 2007)

The fish don't seem to eat the worms or leeches.


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## AEWHistory (Nov 6, 2008)

Why isn't this done any longer? Is it because the fish don't eat the worms, as Crystal mentioned, or is it because of disease potential? Or something else? 

I've just about established that my LFS store gave me a 'culture' of Tubifex, when I wanted Blackworms (that's what they were labeled as..). I looked over my culture groups of Blackworms and noticed that my more recent purchases had redder worms than the earlier ones. So I took some of the red (possibly Tubifex) and dumped them in a different 10-gal aquarium that I've had running. First thing I noticed was that the adult worms sank straight the the bottom and slithered into the substrate like it was home, just like in the 'infected' tank. The 'baby' worms, though, started swimming.... wanna guess what they looked like? They made than same corkscrew, s-shaped, twisting sort of motion in the water. Either this would be an amazing coincidence, or these are the same worms.

So now what do I do? :icon_roll I've got not one, but two potential Tubifex colonies/cultures. I've read that my Sulawesi/Tylomelania snails like meaty foods, so I'm going to try introducing a few into the second aquarium to see if they dig out the worms. Apparently they like blackworms, so hopefully they'll be keen on Tubifex. If so, this'll be perfect. If not, I'll try the Spixis I've got coming this week.... they're somewhat carnivorous. 

Besides all of this, what is the common wisdom on Tubifex nowadays?

Thanks,
Aaron

PS- I promise, one day, I really will try to get some pics of these worms for everyone.... no really....


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