# Build my led or finnex



## triggergun (Jul 2, 2012)

I'm looking for a 18" light for a 18"x 18x18  cube. I have it narrowed down to these two lights. Build my led has no par data so I'm not sure which one is the better light. Whats everybody's opinion?


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

What kind of light levels are you aiming for?


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## triggergun (Jul 2, 2012)

High. Im going to try to get a carpet of HC along with a few other plants.. I plan on dry starting it and will only have a handful of tetras once filled. I will be EI dosing and pressurized Co2.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

triggergun said:


> Build my led has no par data so I'm not sure which one is the better light.


They have pAR data but in a different form..
*Micromoles:* 12" Fixture = 22 / 48" Fixture = 88
- *Input Watts**:* 12" Fixture = 18W / 48" Fixture = 72W
- *Input Voltage**:* 90-305 VAC
-* Color Temperature (CCT)**:* 8500K
- *Color Rending Index (CRI)**:* 77
- *Operating Temperature **:* -20C to 45C
- *Predicted Life**:* 50,000 Hours
- *LED Selections per 12" Board:*
(10) 5700K, (3) 660nm, (2) 450nm - 

Personally I like 1W LED's Arguably better penetration (and optic choices)
http://www.buildmyled.com/freshwater-planted-tank/#sthash.708rWs6S.dpuf


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## jestes (Dec 22, 2010)

I went with build my led with the recommendation of people on here, and I'm glad I did. The plants are doing very well, and the tank doesn't look completely washed out. Their planted spectrum utilizes lights in the red and blue part of the spectrum, so it works well for plants even if it doesn't look too bright to us. Just give them a call. Plus, built in the USA never hurts.


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## triggergun (Jul 2, 2012)

So would the pre configured lights from Build My Led be just fine? Or would I need to have a custom light made?


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## MarkM (Sep 16, 2012)

*Just Received Mine*

I went with Build My Own. Just received and tried it actually. I have never seen the Finnex so I can not compare. I can say:
The actual par value as measured is within 5% of what the par chart predicts.
They have a 3 year warranty.
The quality is top notch in terms of build, fit, and finish.
I was able to get my questions answered on their forum and via a direct phone call.
Dimmer words great.
Silent.
Tank looks great.

I can not tell you if the plant growth color selection works yet.

Have fun learning!


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

If your budget permits, go with the Build My LED fixture. That way you can dim it if you were to decide to go low light.


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## poverty (Jul 8, 2013)

I'm happy with my Finnex RAY2. For the price I'm extremely happy.


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## triggergun (Jul 2, 2012)

thanks for the help. I think I'm going with the build my led fixture.


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## triggergun (Jul 2, 2012)

If I do go the "build my led" route what would be the best leds to select?


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## MarkM (Sep 16, 2012)

*Light Spectrum*

I bought the plant growth unit. I did look at the light spectrum chart for the plant growth unit and compared that with the generic light spectrum chart for plant growth and it was pretty close.

I debated getting the all white unit which is 6000K I think as that is close to the T5 6700K I use now. But was swayed with the numbers in the chart as well as the tests run with the growth lamp.


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## fermentedhiker (Oct 28, 2011)

It's a tough call. I'm debating this for my next tank build. I have a Ray2 on one and a fugeray on another 40B and it would be nice to have a buildmyled to compare it to. The dimming option is a really nice feature, but if that's the only reason someone would want the buildmyled feature I'm not sure it's worth the cost as you can dim the finnex by either adding layers of window screening in front of the leds or raising the fixture. I personally think that I might like the light from buildmyled a little better because the color temp on their plant fixture is 8500k whereas the finnex is 7000 and I like my light a little on the bluer/crisper side. But I think that's a viewers preference and shouldn't matter much to the plants.


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## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

triggergun said:


> If I do go the "build my led" route what would be the best leds to select?


The best leds colors to select would be blues and reds, but that would look aesthetically unpleasing. Play around with the diy app, it's fun to do. It is practical to get a light that has *high apparent brightness*, *good par* and a *color temperature of 5500-5900k* [*noon tropical sunlight*] and *high color rendering index 98 [CRI]*


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## tricken (Jun 27, 2013)

i went with the show on a 48 inch for a standard 55 gal tank, and with a hoppy meter i get 78 par at the substraight 20 inches down and 58 on the sides. this is 90 optics and with tank mounts, the light is top notch color is good and the plants are just eating it up.


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## MiSo (Oct 26, 2005)

triggergun said:


> If I do go the "build my led" route what would be the best leds to select?


i went with this configuration.
http://www.buildmyled.com/custom-report-details/?partNo=PS3690S101AATAATAAATAATAA


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## kingdave (Feb 20, 2010)

My 36" Build My LED Planted Tank Fixture shows up on Wednesday... I'll let you know how it looks.


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## poverty (Jul 8, 2013)

MiSo said:


> i went with this configuration.
> http://www.buildmyled.com/custom-report-details/?partNo=PS3690S101AATAATAAATAATAA


Yes, please follow up with some photos. I'm considering a 100w multichip with pretty much the exact same setup.


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

My experience with buildmyled. 48" for my 45 gal tank.

All of page 4 (with pics)
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?p=4044890#post4044890


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## Fishmommy (Feb 16, 2013)

Ooh... New lights are so much fun!


Sent from my gadget using Trippytalk HD


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

samee said:


> My experience with buildmyled. 48" for my 45 gal tank.
> 
> All of page 4 (with pics)
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?p=4044890#post4044890


Somewhat fair and some what not.............................

Not knowing all the conversation it is hard to judge everything but I don't see why you couldn't just pop off the lenses or hang the light higher... 
LED's are pretty much point light sources and it is fairly obvious using a 90 triangle that you wouldn't have full coverage that close to the top of the tank.. I doubt that you would have needed to raise it more than a few inches to get that coverage..

As to PAR and their ability to grow things.. seems you really didn't test it to the fullest..


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## MiSo (Oct 26, 2005)

i love the color the lights puts out. this is taken with a iphone. it looks way better in person.


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## Current USA (Jun 5, 2013)

Beautiful tank!


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

jeffkrol said:


> Somewhat fair and some what not.............................
> 
> Not knowing all the conversation it is hard to judge everything but I don't see why you couldn't just pop off the lenses or hang the light higher...
> LED's are pretty much point light sources and it is fairly obvious using a 90 triangle that you wouldn't have full coverage that close to the top of the tank.. I doubt that you would have needed to raise it more than a few inches to get that coverage..
> ...


I agree. No clue why he would tell you that you would be ok when placing the light on top of the tank when there is no way 90deg optics can cover anything greater than 12" wide when you place it right above the water line. Even 120deg can't get you that on something that wide. For wide tanks you have to increase LED output and hang at least 6" above water line to get coverage.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

gus6464 said:


> Even 120deg can't get you that on something that wide. For wide tanks you have to increase LED output and hang at least 6" above water line to get coverage.


Or tilt it a smidgen...


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## nofearengineer (Mar 20, 2013)

MiSo said:


> i love the color the lights puts out. this is taken with a iphone. it looks way better in person.


Miso, if I read your other post right, you went with the 5000K spectrum?

I just ordered two 4-footers for my 75 with that spectrum. It looks great on your tank.


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## MiSo (Oct 26, 2005)

nofearengineer said:


> Miso, if I read your other post right, you went with the 5000K spectrum?
> 
> I just ordered two 4-footers for my 75 with that spectrum. It looks great on your tank.


that's right. got the idea from this thread.
http://forum.buildmyled.com/index.php?threads/new-5000k-planted-tank-spectrum.225/

you'll be very happy with the results!
will you be suspending your lights? 
two will be very high light.


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## nofearengineer (Mar 20, 2013)

MiSo said:


> that's right. got the idea from this thread.
> http://forum.buildmyled.com/index.php?threads/new-5000k-planted-tank-spectrum.225/
> 
> you'll be very happy with the results!
> ...



Yes, I'm suspending them about 12 inches above the surface. I got the 45 degree optics, and the 4 inch spacer, so I will have light in the front and back of the tank. I am counting on dimming them down somewhat, which will extend their life and spectral output for years and years. I figure with the capability of more than 200 PAR at the substrate, I can grow just about any carpet I want.


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## tricken (Jun 27, 2013)

this my show on a iphone taken dimmed to about 90% one week after getting it.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

nofearengineer said:


> Yes, I'm suspending them about 12 inches above the surface. I got the 45 degree optics, and the 4 inch spacer, so I will have light in the front and back of the tank. I am counting on dimming them down somewhat, which will extend their life and spectral output for years and years. I figure with the capability of more than 200 PAR at the substrate, I can grow just about any carpet I want.


Heat is what kills LED emitters and nothing else. As long as you have sufficient cooling it doesn't matter if you run at 10% or 100%. It is the same principle as CPU's. You can overclock a CPU and run it for years with 0 ill-effects with proper cooling. The 50k hour rating will be the same no matter what power you run them.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

A power spike is not good for LED's life either.

http://www.ebay.com/gds/LED-Lighting-Myths-Facts-and-Common-Problems/10000000004575147/g.html

v2


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

There is a big misconception going around about prolonging life of LED's and this and that. An LED is nothing but a semiconductor, and the biggest enemy of a semiconductor is heat. One thing I have noticed is that planted LED manufacturers tend to skimp on cooling while reefer lights are usually overbuilt.

I agree OVT that a surge is not good either, but no semiconductor tends to do well with power spikes.


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## nofearengineer (Mar 20, 2013)

gus6464 said:


> Heat is what kills LED emitters and nothing else. As long as you have sufficient cooling it doesn't matter if you run at 10% or 100%. It is the same principle as CPU's. You can overclock a CPU and run it for years with 0 ill-effects with proper cooling. The 50k hour rating will be the same no matter what power you run them.


Gus, an LED in a lighting fixture does not run at the same temperature at 10% as it does at 100%. Dimming an LED reduces the junction temperatures and does indeed extend their usable life.

I currently run a BML fixture, and dimmed down, you can definitely tell the difference in heat sink temperature.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

nofearengineer said:


> Gus, an LED in a lighting fixture does not run at the same temperature at 10% as it does at 100%. Dimming an LED reduces the junction temperatures and does indeed extend their usable life.
> 
> I currently run a BML fixture, and dimmed down, you can definitely tell the difference in heat sink temperature.


That's because manufacturers will design the cooling on the lowest common denominator which is not the way to go. You design the cooling as if the LEDs are going to be run at 100% all the time. You do not design a CPU cooler based on idle temp, but on full load temp. This same design principle should exist aquarium LED lights, but only reefer lights tend to be designed with that in mind.

I can run my cannons at full power with the heatsink being only warm to the touch. I guarantee you my LEDs will last as long as yours even if you run them at 10% power vs my 100%.

In the end all you are doing is excusing poor design.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

gus6464 said:


> That's because manufacturers will design the cooling on the lowest common denominator which is not the way to go. You design the cooling as if the LEDs are going to be run at 100% all the time. You do not design a CPU cooler based on idle temp, but on full load temp. This same design principle should exist aquarium LED lights, but only reefer lights tend to be designed with that in mind.
> 
> I can run my cannons at full power with the heat sink being only warm to the touch. I guarantee you my LEDs will last as long as yours even if you run them at 10% power vs my 100%.
> 
> In the end all you are doing is excusing them of poor design.




Err.. not quite: Your forgetting one fact.. Even if the heat sink is "efficent" the heat is still generated at the junction point..Short of supercooling, there will always be a lag of heat transfer..Not to mention baking the LED envelope and phosphors.. 
 Main point: do you really want to drive your LED's @ full power.. or more..
I agree that "correct" manufacture should have the fixture running cool but there are otehr things to consider in aesthetics and marketing.. Like cost/duration/ and appeal.. Some people dislike things like fans and like things like "petite".. so as long as the light lasts as long as the manuf. thinks is should..

That aside.. I'm not to certain an LED driven at 10% would not outlast one driven at 100% short of it frozen in ice... 

I wouldn't doubt that reef lighting has a tendency to "overdrive" their lights..and def. need better cooling.. Not to mention that the heat sink temp is only partially related to junction temp... 



> 3. Heat is the bane of LEDs. Cree LEDs must be kept below 150 C at the solder junction. If they get hotter, their lifespan will be adversely affected, or they may fail. Increasing the drive current over 350 mA greatly increases the cooling requirements (it’s not a linear relationship…driving an LED at 700 mA takes more than double the heat sink capacity than an LED driven at 350 mA). Additionally, and apparently this is little known among the self-professed LED “gurus”, a hotter LED produces LESS LIGHT! *An overdriven LED, running near its maximum temperature produces only 68%* of the light output!*  (*For white LEDs. Royal LEDs produce 78% of the light at maximum temperature.) So, to continue with our previous example, let’s assume that the LED driven at 350 mA can be kept under 50 C, and it is producing better than 95% of its rated flux of 107 lumens (let’s say 102 lumens). Now we’ll overdrive it to 1000 mA. Cree says we can expect to achieve about 220% the rated output, but this assumes that the junction temperature remains at a very cool 25 C. From our experience, this is impossible to achieve at this current. Even with very agressive cooling and a large heatsink, you can expect to see junction temperatures of 75-100 C at this current, reducing your 220% expectation to a less compelling 176% increase. If you decide to cut your cooling a little short (heatsinks can be expensive, fans can get dusty or fail), at maximum temperature, you will only achieve 150% of the light output of the nominally driven LED. Now, you’re paying the power company for 2.6 times the energy for only 1.5 times the light! (…and, you’ve spent more money in heatsinks and fans…and, if a fan or two fails, kiss your LEDs goodbye!)



Read more: http://reefbuilders.com/2009/12/21/...ohn-explains-led-drive-current/#ixzz2bt4OgLVq

Poor design or design choice???? 

you both have a point.. but neither is as simple as it seems.. Until you have a refrigerant line attached to an LED... 

Correct manufacture would have all copper heat sinks.. or diamond



> The most common heat sink materials are aluminium alloys.[6] Aluminium alloy 1050A has one of the higher thermal conductivity values at 229 W/m•K [7] but is mechanically soft. Aluminium alloys 6061 and 6063 are commonly used, with thermal conductivity values of 166 and 201 W/m•K, respectively. The values depend on the temper of the alloy.
> Copper has excellent heat sink properties in terms of its thermal conductivity, corrosion resistance, biofouling resistance, and antimicrobial resistance _(see Main Article: Copper in heat exchangers)_. * Copper has around twice the thermal conductivity of aluminium and faster, more efficient heat absorption.* Its main applications are in industrial facilities, power plants, solar thermal water systems, HVAC systems, gas water heaters, forced air heating and cooling systems, geothermal heating and cooling, and electronic systems.


I believe your heat sinks are copper cores ..........
correct design is fluid...........


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## nofearengineer (Mar 20, 2013)

Gus, you obviously agree that keeping LED's cooler extends their life, otherwise I wouldn't imagine you having such obvious pride in your mega-cooling solution. I'm just not sure why you don't believe keeping them cooler by dimming them will achieve the same life extension. Cooler is cooler. 

I didn't buy two fixtures just so I could turn them down. I bought two fixtures for better lighting distribution in an 18" front-to-back tank, and the dimming down is just a happy bonus.

EDIT: Well shoot, Jeff. You said it much better than I did. Kudos and thanks.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

jeffkrol said:


> Err.. not quite: Your forgetting one fact.. Even if the heat sink is "efficent" the heat is still generated at the junction point..Short of supercooling, there will always be a lag of heat transfer..Not to mention baking the LED envelope and phosphors..
> Main point: do you really want to drive your LED's @ full power.. or more..
> I agree that "correct" manufacture should have the fixture running cool but there are otehr things to consider in aesthetics and marketing.. Like cost/duration/ and appeal.. Some people dislike things like fans and like things like "petite".. so as long as the light lasts as long as the manuf. thinks is should..
> 
> ...




Yeah my heatsinks are copper core. One variable that is missing from the argument though is life expentancy of the light by the user. Who here is really going to keep an LED fixture for say 10 years? Let's say we both keep our lights for 5 years, does it matter if he ran his lights at 10% output and me at 100% during that time? Also resale value is irrelevant at that point since neither light will be worth anything.​


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

nofearengineer said:


> Gus, you obviously agree that keeping LED's cooler extends their life, otherwise I wouldn't imagine you having such obvious pride in your mega-cooling solution. I'm just not sure why you don't believe keeping them cooler by dimming them will achieve the same life extension. Cooler is cooler.
> 
> I didn't buy two fixtures just so I could turn them down. I bought two fixtures for better lighting distribution in an 18" front-to-back tank, and the dimming down is just a happy bonus.
> 
> EDIT: Well shoot, Jeff. You said it much better than I did. Kudos and thanks.


I didn't design my cooling on the total life expentancy of the LED. I did it because I wanted to drive the LEDs at 100% without them going poof! in a year. Just how I do my CPU overclocks, I did it based on how long I would keep the fixture which is probably no more than 3 years. I mean who here can honestly say that they are buying all these LED fixtures to keep them 10 years?


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## nofearengineer (Mar 20, 2013)

I'm not just being argumentative, but I think I would keep my lighting fixtures as long as the spectral output was good. 50,000 hours at L70 (70% rated lumen output, don't really have such a thing for PAR, but I guess it will work), at 10 hours per day is almost 14 years.

I really don't want to buy a lighting fixture based on 50,000 hour life and only use it for 20,000. It's not like chlorophyll is going to change, so why would the light?


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## rcs0926 (Jun 14, 2013)

I'm not part of this discussion, but I'd love it if my Finnex Ray 2 lasted 10 years especially if I'm not able to upgrade to a bigger tank within that time frame.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

rcs0926 said:


> I'm not part of this discussion, but I'd love it if my Finnex Ray 2 lasted 10 years especially if I'm not able to upgrade to a bigger tank within that time frame.


Yeah but during those 10 years you not only have to worry about the emitters but also the other components like the power supply and driver. I am pretty sure my LEDs will long outlast my drivers and power supply.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

gus6464 said:


> Yeah my heatsinks are copper core. One variable that is missing from the argument though is life expentancy of the light by the user. Who here is really going to keep an LED fixture for say 10 years? Let's say we both keep our lights for 5 years, does it matter if he ran his lights at 10% output and me at 100% during that time? Also resale value is irrelevant at that point since neither light will be worth anything.


no it is not missing.. It is also included in Cu vs Al and passive cooling vs fans..
My 10W chips run at 50 degrees C @ fullish power.. probably not good for them but they are quiet and easily replaced and, of course, I don't expect them to last 10 years. It was a design decision on my part.. No fans, cheap heat sinks but do the best I can.. see what happens.. 
OF course this is not what I expect from a commercial manufacture, which considering "planned obsolescence" it may be more beneficial to dim them and get more life out of it IF it still does what you want.........
considering your build I could just as well say "hey shed a few years and shed the fans, your just going to do another build"... 

On a personal note: I have little faith in any "commercial" electronics lasting 5 years or more by physical breakdown or obsolescence.......... Mostly due to the "capacitor" thing.. 

As to fans, I had added one for my "power box".. Wife told me it annoyed her.. sooooooooooo out it went.. We will see how long my drivers last..


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

jeffkrol said:


> no it is not missing.. It is also included in Cu vs Al and passive cooling vs fans..
> My 10W chips run at 50 degrees C @ fullish power.. probably not good for them but they are quiet and easily replaced and, of course, I don't expect them to last 10 years. It was a design decision on my part.. No fans, cheap heat sinks but do the best I can.. see what happens..
> OF course this is not what I expect from a commercial manufacture, which considering "planned obsolescence" it may be more beneficial to dim them and get more life out of it IF it still does what you want.........
> considering your build I could just as well say "hey shed a few years and shed the fans, your just going to do another build"...
> ...


I think we are for the most part on the same page about our lighting in that we base the life expentancy on the whole system as a whole and not just the emitters. If my $30 power supply lasts more than 3 years I am going to be really amazed.

What I am trying to convey (poorly) is that you can baby your emitters all day long, but 3 years from now when your driver or power supply goes down the crapper, good luck finding a replacement that will fit the pretty slim housing. There is a reason the manufacturer only gives you that one year warranty.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

gus6464 said:


> What I am trying to convey (poorly) is that you can baby your emitters all day long, but 3 years from now when your driver or power supply goes down the crapper, good luck finding a replacement that will fit the pretty slim housing. There is a reason the manufacturer only gives you that one year warranty.


Understood.. And probably recapping the PS would fix it... There is no reason one should die in 3 years...Back to that planned obsolescence.. 

So in a sense DIY and manuf. are on the same page.. Just get through 3 or so years.. 
No need for 50lb heat sinks.. Or $200 worth of copper.. Or liquid cooling.. but is sure is fun..Just build it so they don't [email protected] out in a few months from overheating the LEDs... 



No sense in buying 100 1W led's and running them at 10% instead of a 10W led and running it to "spec"..


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Funny semi-related "incident"...........



> I reciently had a power supply failure which toasted my cooling fans on my DIY lights.
> Setup was 3 20,000K 50W chips, and 10 Cree Royal Blue 3W stars. The Royal Blues died. The miltichips are still OK.





> fix the insufficient heat sinking first IMO
> LED's should still run under their max temp even without forced cooling.


Thought it was funny...........


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## herns (May 6, 2008)

EDIT. double post.


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## herns (May 6, 2008)

OVT said:


> A power spike is not good for LED's life either.
> 
> [Ebay Link Removed]
> 
> v2


Thats a good link! :eek5:

I think I'll stay with my CF bulbs for the time being.


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