# Should you mix ro/di water with tap water?



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

mixing with tap can save you money on remineralizing.

but u can go the pure route and buy gh and kh boosters to reconstitute the water to ur desired levels as well


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Hmm. What are the ideal kh and gh levels? When I tested my tap water they were off the charts. So when using pure ro water do you need to add these boosters for sure? Man there's a lot to this hobby, just when I think I'm getting it down.. Nope there's more, it's exhausting!!!


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Pure RO water contains no minerals and next to nothing we keep in the hobby can survive in it until it's remineralized. The GH/KH levels desired really depend upon the livestock you plan to house.

Which fish/inverts do you plan to keep? That'll help us shoot for more specifics for you.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Apistos, checkerboards, and cardinal and scissor tail tetras, a few Otos as well. Mainly dwarf cichlids and schooling fish.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

well it depends on how effective ur RO unit is. probably AT LEAST 90% efficient

ideal kh is between 1-4 and gh is between 2-5 IMO for plants and a wide variety of fish
my gbr's are fine at 3kh and 4 gh
so are my ottos, and rainbowfish


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Thanks for all your help! Think it's easier to mix the water or use the boost supplements? I won't always be the one doing it so I'd need the easiest option. Thanks again.


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

Can I ask WHY you would remove minerals only to replace them again? It seems completly backwards lol


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

kribkeeper888 said:


> Can I ask WHY you would remove minerals only to replace them again? It seems completly backwards lol


Because the amount of minerals being removed is far greater than the amount being added back in. How else to your purpose someone go from gh of 15 and kh of 9 to a gh of 5 and a kh of 2? Reconstituting RO is the easiest, safest and most reliable way.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Yeah like I said my well water here is very hard. My levels were literally off the charts.


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

Ooh gotcha. dumb question.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Well it depends on if u'd rather ad a set teaspoon amount everytime u add water.. or would u rather try mixing ratios of tap water to ro water to reach a desired value

If u add minerals u choose what u want. Ur gh may be off the charts from potassium only. Or calcium only. Plus ull be adding any other contaminents ur currently removing by using ro..

If ur gonna use ro. Reap all the benefits imo


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

So what would you suggest purchasing if I just want to add a set regimens every time I do a wc? Thanks a ton again for all the feedback!


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Here is how I did it for the softest water fish:
Run RO into a garbage can, about half full. 
Add tap water to fill it. 
Circulate the water overnight with peat moss in a nylon stocking. 

Why it worked:
My tap water is very stable. Year round the GH and KH vary only about 1 German degree of hardness. (mostly about 4-5 degrees) So I did not even bother testing, once I had the recipe figured out. 50/50 was the ratio that worked for the fish I had then. 
________________________________________________________

What I would suggest:
Buy a gallon of RO or start with RO from your filter. 
Make several blends to see what comes closest to the values you want. The fish you list are really soft water fish. Cardinal Tetras, for example can store too much calcium from the water and die. I would aim for GH and KH not much more than 3 German degrees of hardness. 
When you figure out which mix does this for you, adding peat moss is optional. Cardinals are not black water fish (per Baensch). I am not sure about the others. 

Since you say the tap water is just about liquid rock, you might end up with as little as 1/8 tap and 7/8 RO. But try a few different mixes. The GH and KH do not need to be the same, but within a degree or so is reasonable. 
If you think the tap water varies from week to week, then you will have to test every time. This need not take too long, but it is an added step. 

Since you are removing pretty much all the minerals from the tap water do not rely on it as a source of any minerals for the plants. 

If you want to simply buy the right minerals I have done it this way for hard water tanks:
Add enough baking soda and GH booster (Seachem Equilibrium or Barr's GH Booster) to make the GH and kH I want. For these tanks I also have some coral sand in the filter. (You would not need the coral sand in the filter.)

There are other materials that you could use to add the same minerals, that is, calcium and magnesium for the right GH and carbonates for KH. Calcium carbonate, for example, adds both Ca and carbonates. Epsom salt adds magnesium. 

Do not JUST add Epsom salt and call it good. It is not. Plants and fish need calcium as well as magnesium, and Epsom salt is just magnesium. It will raise the GH, so the test might show you a good number, but that is not all the right minerals.


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## proaudio55 (Oct 20, 2011)

LOL . . . do a search of the site; I already posted exactly how mix RO water with tap! :tongue:

And yes, if you live in an area with very hard water, you need a blend of tap water with RO / distilled water. The ratio will depend on how pure your filtered water is and how horrible your tap water is.

TPT thread:
Automatic water change system – DI/RO + tap water (lots of large pics)










http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/pHosting/f/8953_RO_2c.jpg


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Oh man I love the advice but it seems complicated. I know I want dwarf cichlids and schoolers, more importantly healthy plants. So I guess I'll just make a mix of tap and ro and test for gh and kh and hope its around the 3kh mark and 4 gh mark with my API test kits? That a good start?


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Water can indeed be a complicated topic. More opinions than fact end up getting posted most of the time.
2dKH and above is more than enough buffer for a stable, neutral pH. Many test less than 1dKH and maintain stable pH based on web postings. I prefer a tested level of 2dKH myself. With the fish you listed TDS is the important part really. Having truly soft water will have a low solids reading, lower KH and low GH test results.
3-5dGH provides enough mineral content for most plants. 

If you will drink and bath in your tap water it should in most cases be fine for use in a ratio mix with the RO units product water for tanking purposes.
I don't drink my tap or bath in it due to the high mineral content and overall taste factor. It also contains tannins from the local ground source and higher Fe levels. I use 100% RO mixing GLA Ultimate GH booster and KH buffers for my tanking needs. 

Depends on what water quality you actually have to fully answer the question.
GH, KH, TDS tests give most of the answers but not a complete picture.

hope this helps


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## Dan Knowlton (Jan 9, 2009)

If you have city water, they are required to publish a water quality report. The average gh in my area is 14.8, so I used that to calculate the "dilution" with RO water to get 3gh. Obviously, it was not exact but it was pretty close. 

Of course, you could always get a testing kit and go that route. 

Dan K.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

So would just adding seachem equilibrium work then? I read on Tom barr's website that typically only a gh booster is necessary. First step is to do some testing and see where my ro water is at to start with.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

So I tested the water straight from the ro/di unit with my API test kit and the gh took 14 drops to turn from orange to green which again is off the charts and the kh took twelve drops to go from blue to yellow which reads dkh of 12 and ppm of 214.8. Is this even f'n possible? I seriously don't get it.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

unless ur RO unit is bad. not likely

ur test kit may be bad do u have a TDS meter?


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

It was pretty much plug and play after locking in the filter. The was neutral a lot lower than it was before. No tds meter unfortunately. Hmm guess I could buy test strips and see what they say. Getting über frustrated at this point.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

RO water ought to test very close to zero degrees GH and KH. Some units allow a tiny trace of things through, so MAYBE your RO water might show 1 degree, but that is all. 

There is something seriously wrong if it is showing that high GH and KH. 

Are the tests kits fresh? API has a code number on the chemicals. The last 4 digits are the date of manufacture, month and year. GH and KH tests are good for at least 2 years, maybe 3 after that date. (Mine still reported results after 3 years, but gradually quit in their 4th year)


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Hmm I will have to check the date on it. My patience is wearing thin!! Thanks


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Make sure to rinse the test tubes before you test in the same water you are testing. If they had been used for your tap water some minerals may remain in the test tubes. I sure would not expect that much, though!


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## cradleoffilthfan (Jan 19, 2009)

this is an easy question. Your RO/DI unit depending on what stage it is, 3, 4, 5, whatever, will have different micron filters and a reverse osmosis membrane trapping by the end even the smallest particles, leaving you with pure water. If these become clogged or break down, your essentially using tap water(maybe even harder than tap water depending on how much mineral deposits have accumulated in the unit), because the filters and/or membrane is not functioning. I replace my filters once a year and the membrane every two years, at least depending on how much I use the RO/DI unit. If you tested for gh and kh and are getting a hardness value, it means you have TDS's in the RO/DI water. TDS(total dissoved solids) are just a measurement of how conductive to electricity the water is. Pure water if it were 100 percent pure, would not conduct electricity. It's the minerals in the water that conduct electricity. Salt water for example would conduct electricity very well. I think you just have a dirty RO/DI unit in need of filter and membrane replacing. Once you replace these, you should have no measured gh or kh readings. I would try testing for nitrates too and see if you get a reading there. I remember one friend getting a pretty high nitrate reading when his RO/DI unit was used up so to speak.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

It's brand new. I just purchased a tds meter so I'm hoping that comes soon. Tbc...


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## cradleoffilthfan (Jan 19, 2009)

its brand new and measuring a hardness. Did it come with filters you had to put in yourself, or are we assuming the filters are in the unit already? If it's new and the filters are new and installed correctly and the pressure on the unit is good, then it's your test kit that is bad. Have you tried to have your LFS test the water out of the unit?


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Yeah I installed the filter and it's in correctly. Haven't gotten it tested at the lfs yet but may tomorrow.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

So I just got my Tds meter. Do I need to calibrate it and if so how duo you go about this? Also what should I be looking for as far as readings? Can I figure out my gh/kh with this meter?

Thanks!!


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

I guess it came calibrated from the factory.. So what are ideal TDS readings for a planted tank? Also can I figure out my kh/gh leveels from this. My test kits must be off if I was getting such high readings from my ro/di water.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

TDS aids in knowing what you have in total (including conductive organics) but like I posted earlier both GH and KH test seperately, so I do not believe you can use TDS alone. 

What was the product water TDS from your RO unit?


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

I filled up half a bucket with ro water and it read 267ppm. Tank read 576ppm. Tested my ro water at another location for a different tank and that water read 0ppm. Not sure what's going on with this one for the planted tank but this is driving me crazy!!

Any idea why fresh ro water out if a new unit would read 267?


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

> Any idea why fresh RO water out if a new unit would read 267?


Unit is not functioning right or the test meter is not. 

RO water ought to test pretty close to 0, though may test in the single digits or a little bit higher. (Some units are better than others, but unless you have hospital grade equipment a test of 0 is almost impossible)

My TAP water tests in the mid 200s, sometimes into the low 300s, and I know there is stuff in that!
GH and KH around 4-5 German degrees of hardness, 
Chloramines give the water about 1 ppm each chlorine and ammonia
Other things I do not test for (I have no tests) add up to more stuff...


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Well that would just be par for the course! What would cause a unit not to function correctly? Like I said besides installing the filter, which is a no brainier, it was just plug and play. I purchased this unit from pure water club:
Description:0PPM Portable 150GPD Reverse Osmosis RO+DI Filtration POQ-4B-150, Item #URE-POQ-4B-150
Unit price:$75.00 USD
Qty:1
Amount:$75.00 USD


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## CalmSeasQuest (May 26, 2012)

kevinmichael77 said:


> Well that would just be par for the course! What would cause a unit not to function correctly? Like I said besides installing the filter, which is a no brainier, it was just plug and play. I purchased this unit from pure water club:
> Description:0PPM Portable 150GPD Reverse Osmosis RO+DI Filtration POQ-4B-150, Item #URE-POQ-4B-150
> Unit price:$75.00 USD
> Qty:1
> Amount:$75.00 USD


Product water from an RO/DI should be 0 TDS. Anything higher means your DI resin is exhausted.

For reference, I use a BRS 75 GPD 6 stage fitted with a boost pump. ~350TDS softened well water into the RO produces ~1 TDS water into the DI and lots of 0 TDS water out of the DI. 

I can't comment on target water values as I'm still "relearning" virtually everything from having kept reefs for the past 20 years.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

sounds like the membrane is not well sealed in the inside allowing water to seep around it instead of through it


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Hmm. I'll check that tomorrow!!


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## TwoTacoCombo (Apr 13, 2012)

Also, are you sure you aren't testing the waste water? My tap water is about 9 drops in the GH test. My waste water output is around 15, while the 'good' RO water is between 0 and 1. Try testing the water from both output hoses and see if there's any difference.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

TwoTacoCombo said:


> Also, are you sure you aren't testing the waste water? My tap water is about 9 drops in the GH test. My waste water output is around 15, while the 'good' RO water is between 0 and 1. Try testing the water from both output hoses and see if there's any difference.


:icon_eek:


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Yeah it's obvious where the waste water comes out on this unit. Not sure what's going on and of course purewaterclub doesn't have a phone number or offer customer service by phone. Guess I'll just wait for an email.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

So I discovered the little valve going to the Di canister isn't letting any water pass through, couldn't even blow any air thought it.

Is this something home depot may have? I still haven't heard anything back from purewaterclub.com..


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## h4n (Jan 4, 2006)

kevinmichael77 said:


> So I discovered the little valve going to the Di canister isn't letting any water pass through, couldn't even blow any air thought it.
> 
> Is this something home depot may have? I still haven't heard anything back from purewaterclub.com..


I don't think you'll be able to blow air thru it. Did you get a flush kit with it? Which way is the valve going?

-Sent from my Samsung Note, a "Phablet"


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## CalmSeasQuest (May 26, 2012)

kevinmichael77 said:


> So I discovered the little valve going to the Di canister isn't letting any water pass through, couldn't even blow any air thought it.
> 
> Is this something home depot may have? I still haven't heard anything back from purewaterclub.com..


This might be a blessing in disguise - If your RO product water has a TDS of 267, it would have quickly exhausted your DI resin. Your RO should lower your raw water TDS by ~98%. Unless your water source is one step away from sludge your RO is not working.

Assuming this is your RO/DI...http://www.purewaterclub.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=399

It does not appear to include a flush kit. Are you sure it's a valve, or could it be a flow restricter?

I would measaure the folling and post the results,

Source water source TDS
Source water pressure in PSI
RO output water TDS
DI output water TDS

For this purpose, ignore the TDS measurements from your tank and they will be higher due to reasons not related to your RO/DI.

From what you've posted so far, I believe your RO membrane is not functioning.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Tap Tds was around 280pp, I tested the water from the ro unit before the Di canister and the Tds was 120. Not sure what the psi is but the water flies out pretty well. That is the unit I purchased on the link you provided.

I'm not sure what the next step is then at this point but to run the thing over with my car even with it being brand new. Really frustrated that I can't get any customer service!!


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

h4n said:


> I don't think you'll be able to blow air thru it. Did you get a flush kit with it? Which way is the valve going?
> 
> -Sent from my Samsung Note, a "Phablet"


How does the water pass through the little connecter if I can't get air or anything to pass through it?


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## h4n (Jan 4, 2006)

kevinmichael77 said:


> How does the water pass through the little connecter if I can't get air or anything to pass through it?


Its under pressure suppose to be like 60psi can we even blow that hard?
Take a quick pic of the valve your talking about.

-Sent from my Samsung Note, a "Phablet"


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

I'll post it tonight or tomorrow since I'm at work now. Do say I'm not getting enough psi, anything I can do beyond that?


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## CalmSeasQuest (May 26, 2012)

Your RO is defective. A boost pump will improve RO performance but even with low water pressure you should get much better performance than a 67% reduction. The improvement your seeing could very well be coming from just the prefilters and your membrane could be ruptured.

120TDS water would quickly exhaust your DI resin, resulting in similar values as what was coming out of your RO.

I'm new to planted, but from a reef perspective the goal is 0 TDS. The unit selected is very low quality (small, solid, horizontal prefilter filter and resin canisters) For reference, Spectrapure, Buckeye field supply and Bulk Reef supply are very good sources for RO/DI.

FWIW - I've used a 6 stage BRS with Spectrapure DI resin for many years and have been extremely happy.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

What do those run? I may just return this then?

Actually you can only return the unused it says even though it's not working and I've only used it literally 3-4 times.


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

That's why I went with BRS, they have all those help videos and a phone, I email PWC before I made my purchase to ask about one of their units and it took 30 days to get a response.

This is how it should look, the red feed comes of the copper to the booster pump (you need 50 psi for a 75 gpd membrane) to the first white filter underneath (sediment filter) then a 5 micron carbon block to the 1 micron carbon block up to the RO membrane, then the blue line takes the water over to the DI filters then out to the holding tank, the black line is waste water. I add 2 tablespoons of Equilibrium and one teaspoon of Alkaline buffer for a 3-4 gH and 1 kH.








If you could zoom into the photo my pressure gauge is at 70 psi so I get good water production. If you notice BRS only sell 75 gpd RO membranes and if you need more you stack them but that membrane has the best rejection rates, so far my tds are 0 going into the DI blocks and I've produced 1500 gallons of water total, waste and filtered.


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## CalmSeasQuest (May 26, 2012)

kevinmichael77 said:


> What do those run? I may just return this then?
> 
> Actually you can only return the unused it says even though it's not working and I've only used it literally 3-4 times.


A BRS system identical to what 150EH and I use is about $269 - less if you purchase through a group buy. I would argue you never really used your RO/DI as it does not work. If they refuse to accept it - contest the charges through your CC.



150EH said:


> That's why I went with BRS, they have all those help videos and a phone, I email PWC before I made my purchase to ask about one of their units and it took 30 days to get a response.


Great system, mine is virtually identical. The only difference is that I've found the SpectraPure MaxCap and SilcaBuster DI resins last about 500% longer than the BRS resin.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

How does it work to contest it? Should I go straight through PayPal? Never contested a charge before.


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## CalmSeasQuest (May 26, 2012)

kevinmichael77 said:


> How does it work to contest it? Should I go straight through PayPal? Never contested a charge before.


I'm sorry - I'm not familiar with PayPal disputes. I would,

Advise the seller you rec'd a defective unit that needs to be replaced or the purchase refunded. Give them a few days to reply. If none is received - file a dispute through PayPal (I would think the process would be on their website.) If your Paypal purchase was tied to a credit card - I'd also contest the charge through your CC provider.

I'd also let the seller know that if this issue is not resolved, you will share your negative experience in _every_ public forum including in which you participate, the BBB (although they already have an "F" rating through the BBB for issues similar to yours... http://www.la.bbb.org/business-revi...re-Water-Club-in-Rowland-Heights-CA-100081114 ) and file a complaint with the CA State Attorney General's office.

Between the potential ramification of more PayPal/CC contests and the negative exposure the hope is they would realize it's not worth screwing with you over $75 

And...next time you need a piece of industry specific equipment - Ask us first


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Cool thanks for the advice!! I actually bought this unit from a recommendation here on the planted tank in a prior thread.


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## CalmSeasQuest (May 26, 2012)

kevinmichael77 said:


> Cool thanks for the advice!! I actually bought this unit from a recommendation here on the planted tank in a prior thread.


Ouch - sorry...


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## BuckeyeFieldSupply (Nov 26, 2005)

150EH said:


> This is how it should look, the red feed comes of the copper to the booster pump (you need 50 psi for a 75 gpd membrane) to the first white filter underneath (sediment filter) then a 5 micron carbon block to the 1 micron carbon block up to the RO membrane, then the blue line takes the water over to the DI filters then out to the holding tank, the black line is waste water.


Let me throw an option at you.

Because the weakest component in these systems in terms of capability to withstand pressure is the clear housings, we recommend a configuration a little different than you've put together. The idea is to avoid exposing the prefilter housings to high pressure:








Russ


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## CalmSeasQuest (May 26, 2012)

Great point Russ - I'm going to re-plumb my boost pump this weekend - Thanks


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Alright so I've decided to return this purewaterclub unit and potentially file a dispute if I don't hear from them by Monday. So next question is what unit should I get that will work well for my situation?

I cant do a fancy system as I'm in a old apartment so I'm relegated to hooking the unit up to the kitchen sink.


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## CalmSeasQuest (May 26, 2012)

kevinmichael77 said:


> Alright so I've decided to return this purewaterclub unit and potentially file a dispute if I don't hear from them by Monday. So next question is what unit should I get that will work well for my situation?
> 
> I cant do a fancy system as I'm in a old apartment so I'm relegated to hooking the unit up to the kitchen sink.


I'm sure BFS can provide better guidance but IMHO,

Whether marine or freshwater, we work so hard to get the water "right" and it's comparatively more difficult to remove the things we don't want - I've never settled for anything less than 0 TDS water. With the exception of the replenishables (prefilters, DO membrane and DI resin) I've view the money I've spent on RO/DI as a one-time investment. As with many things in this hobby, it's generally cheaper to purchase the right equipment once, rather than have to upgrade or have to prematurely replace equipment multiple times.

A few thoughts...


You can easily vary the water source by using the appropriate adapter. Your current need to use a faucet as your water connection should not be limiting.

75GPD Dow Filtech membrane - From what I understand, this is the most efficient membrane with rejection rates up to 99%. If some day 75GDP is not enough, you can easily add a second membrane.

I like 6 stage systems. This allows for dual DI canisters providing the flexibility to run a combination of DI resins (I've had tremendous success with the Spectrapure MaxCap and Silcabuster resins.)

10", clear, vertically mounted filter canisters

Oil-filled PSI gauges - how many and where vary a bit depending on if you're using a boost pump. Allows you to monitor input water pressure and monitor pre-filter life.

Inline TDS meters allow you to gauge performance of the RO and determine when DI resin is exhausted

Boost pump if your water source is less than ~60PSI. This can dramatically improve the performance of your RO membrane and increase water production. In my case it dropped my RO TDS from 3 to 1 TDS, tripling the life of my DI resin.
BRS RO/DI Video Library - Clearly they are promoting their product, but I've found the information provided to be generally very well done and provide a wealth of information on RO/DI. 

Good luck!


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