# Many Substrate Questions:



## Patric (Jun 14, 2019)

I'm in the process of setting up a six foot, 125G freshwater tank that will be low-tech, at least initially. I will be fully planted and aquascaped. A mountain w/ carpeting plants on the left, a river in the middle and a jungle to the right. I have been studying suitable substrates extensively online and here are my questions:

Some use a thin layer of crushed lavarock directly on the glass before adding a regular substrate, like Amazonia for better water circulation. Is this a good idea? Will it affect PH? The water where I live is very hard, so I don't want to add something that increase PH, like crushed coral.

Amazonia, Tropica & Stratum seems to be the preferred active substrates for professionals as well as serious hobbyists. The price is off-putting though, especially for a large tank, like mine. Also, it is my understanding those substrates compact after a year or two and needs to be replaced. The nutrients will also be depleted by that time.

So it would appear to me, a beginner at planted aquariums, with only a 20G tank that is aquascaped at the moment, that inert media would be ideal for me since I don't want to tear it all down after a year or two and replace all the substrate. I use root tabs and liquid fertilizer in my 20G tank with great success. 

Flourite is so filthy that I choose Eco-Complete for my current tank. I know many members here and on other forums don't like it and I would like some feedback on the cons. 

Since I will be using carpeting plants on the left side in my 125G tank, I was considering using a thin layer of premium Tropica Soil Powder on top of the Eco-Complete, so the small roots of those plants have something to grab onto. Any objections on using an active substrate on top of an inert one?

I know this was a lengthy post. Thank you for reading and replying.


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## reddhawkk (Dec 28, 2011)

I believe the lava rock under the substrate is for the iron in them. I do not know if they change the ph.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

I don't think I have seen anyone put lava rock against the glass to increase circulation. Not saying it doesn't happen, just not something I have seen.

I have also heard of using lava rock for iron, though I don't know how needed that is if planning to use liquid fertilizers which most do at some point.

I personally won't use eco-complete again because I find it annoying to plant into and not visually appealing. My next tank will use a substrate that looks more natural.

I think you will have difficulty getting a carpet going without co2. You can certainly plant without co2, but you likely won't see your plants carpet till added to your tank.

My next tank is going to be a 120 gallon, my current plan is to use some type of crushed stone for my substrate. I will be buying it from a local landscape supplier and it will almost certainly be substantially cheaper then even eco-complete. Since eco-complete is also an inert substrate you don't receive any advantages in using it over any other inert substrate except it won't require much/any washing. You will however pay a lot more for it then say a few bags of paver base, black diamond blasting sand, pool filter sand, crushed stone, kitty litter, safe-t-sorb, chicken grit, various other coarse sands, and whatever else folks are using this week for substrate.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I have a base layer of Eco-complete with a thicker layer of Caribsea Crystal River in my 180 gallon. Its a very natural looking sand and excellent to plant in. I can post a picture if would like to see how it looks. 

With the larger tanks, like you said, its so hard to use active substrates because of the need to replenish them over a certain time period.


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## Patric (Jun 14, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> I have a base layer of Eco-complete with a thicker layer of Caribsea Crystal River in my 180 gallon. Its a very natural looking sand and excellent to plant in. I can post a picture if would like to see how it looks.
> 
> With the larger tanks, like you said, its so hard to use active substrates because of the need to replenish them over a certain time period.


Please post some pics. Would love to see them.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Some of the Eco-complete has made its way up to the top of the substrate; but, to me, I think its gives it a very natural appearance. The larger pieces on substrate are leftover from catulpa bark pieces put in tank awhile back. 

Some pics:


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## Miller (Aug 9, 2017)

Dang! Should I cancel my large order of substrate I just made!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Miller said:


> Dang! Should I cancel my large order of substrate I just made!


Do you like the substrate?


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

I'm surprised the sand hasn't made it's way to the bottom. The only couple of times I ever tried capping sand over something coarse, I wanted to cry after each vacuuming of the gravel. And you have geophagus to help! What's your secret?

Bump: Meant to respond to this and got sidetracked by @discusluv 's beautiful tank.



Patric said:


> Flourite is so filthy that I choose Eco-Complete for my current tank. I know many members here and on other forums don't like it and I would like some feedback on the cons.


I have Flourite or Eco Complete in most of my tanks. I like both, though wish Eco Complete came in a natural color. Flourite is fine once you rinse it a hundred times. I know it's a pain upfront, but years down the road, you'll have forgotten all about that day you spent rinsing and the several more days it was cloudy!


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> I'm surprised the sand hasn't made it's way to the bottom. The only couple of times I ever tried capping sand over something coarse, I wanted to cry after each vacuuming of the gravel. And you have geophagus to help! What's your secret?
> 
> Bump: Meant to respond to this and got sidetracked by @discusluv 's beautiful tank.
> 
> ...


You basically intentionally let and actually help finer substrate settle into wider spacing/gaps in coarse substrate at setup. Then from that point on you go with pure sand/finer cap level on top and it stays there because there is no space left for it to sink into.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> I'm surprised the sand hasn't made it's way to the bottom. The only couple of times I ever tried capping sand over something coarse, I wanted to cry after each vacuuming of the gravel. And you have geophagus to help! What's your secret?
> 
> Bump: Meant to respond to this and got sidetracked by @discusluv 's beautiful tank.
> 
> ...


 My husband reminded me that we capped the Eco-Complete with Caribsea Rhizomat, and then added the sand. I think you could probably find and use a more economical (but, organic) hull material.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> My husband reminded me that we capped the Eco-Complete with Caribsea Rhizomat, and then added the sand. I think you could probably find and use a more economical (but, organic) hull material.


Pretty sure its just coco fiber mats same as used for reptile tanks. Just marked up and packaged for aquarium use. 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07PZS1SNH/ref=psdcmw_3048865011_t2_B07LF3QYHG

It would probably make a nice slower breakdown alternative to real compost type soils.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

DaveKS said:


> Pretty sure its just coco fiber mats same as used for reptile tanks. Just marked up and packaged for aquarium use.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07PZS1SNH/ref=psdcmw_3048865011_t2_B07LF3QYHG
> 
> It would probably make a nice slower breakdown alternative to real compost type soils.


There you go- definitely more economical. :smile2:


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

Tried eco complete and flourite clay stuff whatever it is, didnt like either one. Tried BDBS in my 10 and sekrete medium commercial sand (basically PFS and very similar to the stuff Discusluv has). I ended up tearing down the 10g and putting the same sand in it as well. 

Now both my tanks have it and it works very well IMHO. The plants root in it just fine, easy to plant in, the corys really like it and so do the shrimps from what I can tell. Oh the nerites like burrowing thru it also. 

A quick rinse before adding to the tank it your water is clear within a few hours tops. Very little dust comes out during washing but there is some. 100lb bag is $10 at home depot.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> There you go- definitely more economical. :smile2:


Damn this place. You actually peaked my interest in this material again. Got these, only 1cm (.4”) thick vs 1” on those other. 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077SSZ3DG/ref=sspa_dk_hqp_detail_aax_0?psc=1

I’ll set up a mini tray in my grow out tub to test. I’ll probably use some fine lava on bottom, coco mat, seed it with some mulm water and cover with some turface/blast sand mix and see how it goes. Bet it works great. :grin2:


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

DaveKS said:


> Damn this place. You actually peaked my interest in this material again. Got these, only 1cm (.4”) thick vs 1” on those other.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077SSZ3DG/ref=sspa_dk_hqp_detail_aax_0?psc=1
> 
> I’ll set up a mini tray in my grow out tub to test. I’ll probably use some fine lava on bottom, coco mat, seed it with some mulm water and cover with some turface/blast sand mix and see how it goes. Bet it works great. :grin2:


Excellent!


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

Aquasoil doesn't have to be replaced... not sure where such rumours come from - the nutrients however, do deplete and if you have chosen to root feed plants then substrate has to be enriched (osmocote, root tabs, fresh soil etc).
The usage of clay chips/lava rock isn't to improve substrate circulation - its just there to reduce the amount of soil used in very thick substrates. 

Aquasoil tank that is using substrate 2 years old








enriched over time with osmocote










In a very thick substrate tank (tank rear)


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Xiaozhuang said:


> Aquasoil doesn't have to be replaced... not sure where such rumours come from - the nutrients however, do deplete and if you have chosen to root feed plants then substrate has to be enriched (osmocote, root tabs, fresh soil etc).
> *The usage of clay chips/lava rock isn't to improve substrate circulation - its just there to reduce the amount of soil used in very thick substrates. *
> 
> Aquasoil tank that is using substrate 2 years old
> ...


kinda wish ive seen this before the 150 lbs of safe t sorb arrived at my house LOL

at what point do you consider substrate to be very thick? youre sub is about 6~7" in that 3rd pic right?


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## Patric (Jun 14, 2019)

Thanks Dennis. I have read every word on your webpage. Excellent information for a beginner, like me. I suspect even advanced aquarists can learn a thing or two.


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

Like Dennis said the lava rock is just substrate building. 

I have seen amazingly beautiful tanks using every kind of substrate which just lets us know that it does not matter. The nutrients you dose into the water column end up in the substrate because there is no difference between the two. Water flows through it just like the rest of the tank which is why it is such a great source of beneficial bacteria. 

Dennis creates amazing tanks using nutrient based substrates and doses are modified because of it and people like burr and greggs and others simply compensate by dosing more while using inert no nutrient added substrates. Don’t stress about the choice just know what you have to do dosing wise for each. 

That being said some plants, such as lanterna, appreciate and may require more nutrients in the substrate so either dosing the substrate or letting it age is preferable. But being that you’re starting low tech and will eventually go high tech I wouldn’t worry about that either. 

My $0.02 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Patric (Jun 14, 2019)

Thank you Will. I appreciate it. My low-tech, 20G long w/ Eco-Complete (pic in 1st post) looks fantastic with root tabs and high quality liquid fertilizer. It's not like Dennis and I probably will never have anything that colorful but that was not my goal either. I wanted to achieve a natural, heavy vegetagation look and I'm very happy with the result. 

Can't wait to get started on the 125G. So much more canvas.


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> kinda wish ive seen this before the 150 lbs of safe t sorb arrived at my house LOL
> 
> at what point do you consider substrate to be very thick? youre sub is about 6~7" in that 3rd pic right?


It depends on how the substrate is constructed and what it is made out of. 

Generally speaking, if you have decent pore space and low organics, going deep is safe. The finer, more compact, more labile, higher organic load the substrate, the risker it is to go deep.
Low organic/mineralized soils - I think up to 4/5 inches is fine, but probably counter productive unless large plants, can fill lower layers with inert subs instead.
Aquasoils - never saw an issue even with 7/8 inches over long term
Fine sands - only used as thin caps
coarse sand - as thick as you want, but research on managing deep sand beds


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Xiaozhuang said:


> Aquasoil doesn't have to be replaced... not sure where such rumours come from...


I'm not speaking from experience as I've never used Aquasoil, but the rumor comes from conversations about how supposedly AS turns to mush after a couple of years.


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

There are quality differences between brands, and even batches. Even ADA which is highly popular, isn't consistent. So there are tanks which definitely turn to mush so to say, in even shorter time frames than a couple of years. Statistically, still a small number, perhaps 1 or 2 out of every 200 tanks I've seen may have aquasoil quality related issues. It's reliability is why for planted tanks in Asia and most of Europe, aquasoil substrates are the norm/standard as they are the one of the easiest methods to get plant growth without much knowledge/skill as the substrate softens the water and provides nutrients - this is also why the hobby has expanded so much in these regions. The higher marginal cost of shipping to the US instead slapped aquasoils with the label of being unnecessarily expensive, hence forums here are filled with folks trying to justify why it shouldn't be needed. Make no mistake - you could run a good tank without aquasoil, but by far it is the easiest method to grow aquatic plants.

As with all news, the few sensational bad examples stand out. Everyone has about 30,000 times higher chance dying of cancer or heart disease compared to terrorism, and chances of getting strike by lighting is higher than getting killed by a terrorist, but guess what occupies the news/minds of most folks ?


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Xiaozhuang said:


> There are quality differences between brands, and even batches. Even ADA which is highly popular, isn't consistent. So there are tanks which definitely turn to mush so to say, in even shorter time frames than a couple of years. Statistically, still a small number, perhaps 1 or 2 out of every 200 tanks I've seen may have aquasoil quality related issues. It's reliability is why for planted tanks in Asia and most of Europe, aquasoil substrates are the norm/standard as they are the one of the easiest methods to get plant growth without much knowledge/skill as the substrate softens the water and provides nutrients - this is also why the hobby has expanded so much in these regions. The higher marginal cost of shipping to the US instead slapped aquasoils with the label of being unnecessarily expensive, hence forums here are filled with folks trying to justify why it shouldn't be needed. Make no mistake - you could run a good tank without aquasoil, but by far it is the easiest method to grow aquatic plants.
> 
> As with all news, the few sensational bad examples stand out. Everyone has about 30,000 times higher chance dying of cancer or heart disease compared to terrorism, and chances of getting strike by lighting is higher than getting killed by a terrorist, but guess what occupies the news/minds of most folks ?


You wanted to know where a rumor came from, so I answered your question. Now that you've shined light on the subject, maybe people will stop { insert any adjective you want to use} about it. 

As for what news occupies the minds of people, I have no idea. I love my fish and take care of my plants, but I don't spend my days with my brain in the planted tank hobby; my life doesn't allow for that.


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