# Pure ammonium hydroxide cycling aquariums ?



## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

OK I did a search on 'Pure ammonia and fish less cycling' and didn't get anything recent here on TPT.

Lots of jugs labeled 'Pure Ammonia' but they all had surfactants listed as an ingredient or they failed the shake the bottle test. One looked promising as all the bubbles and foam dissipated in less than a minute, but surfactant was the third and last ingredient listed.

Anyone know the exact brand name of truly pure ammonium hydroxide solutions you can get in a retail store?


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## VeeSe (Apr 16, 2011)

Yes. ACE ammonia janitorial strength, from Ace Hardware. It's a 10% ammonium hydroxide solution, no other ingredients. I've used it to cycle all my tanks.


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

Thanx a bunch!

Roughly how many drops/gallon to get a consistent 3-5ppm?


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## tlyons01 (Nov 23, 2011)

I have Blue Ribbon Clear Ammonia. I had found others that used this as well, it must not be full strength as it took more than just drops to get the ammonia readings to start showing. Bought mine at a local mom and pop hardware shop


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

The absolute maximum strength of atmospheric pressure room temperature ammonium hydroxide solution is ~28%. Get a whiff of that and it'll knock you back a few feet at the very least. We used it as a lab reagent and I remember getting it at the local drug store when I was a kid. Don't think they do that anymore.


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## wintu (Feb 2, 2012)

+1 ACE ammonia janitorial strength, just bought one yesterday . i put 25 drops to 17 gal tank with readings around 3ppm but its better to use couple of drops , test and add more and test again


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

I'm gettin' some tomorrow, wringing out my poly sleeve from my 45 tall into my 20L and juicin' it up with soma dat ACE. roud:


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## Doc7 (Apr 7, 2011)

Mcmaster.com sells pure ammonia as well and for me anyway they ship same day for free to my workplace (we get two delivs a day at 10 am and 2 pm)

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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

You'll need 5-8ml in 45g to get 3-5ppm.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Here's a link to a great calculator that helps you determine how much ammonia you'll need for fishless cycling.


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

somewhatshocked said:


> Here's a link to a great calculator that helps you determine how much ammonia you'll need for fishless cycling.


Thanx. Looks like I'll need only 3.6ml for my 20L.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

So only put in half, allow it to circulate, and test. If it really is only 2-3 ppm then add more. You start the fishless cycle with 5 ppm.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

You don't want anything above 4ppm. It's toxic to pretty much anything, plants, bacteria etc..


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

Got the ACE ammonia for $5. Absolutely no suds when shaken. That's the stuff roud:

I'll do a water change, hard scape, plant some mini microsword and a couple anubius, EI ferts, bring up the ammonia up a bit and seed the tank with my 45g canister filter.


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## jccaclimber (Aug 29, 2011)

mistergreen said:


> You don't want anything above 4ppm. It's toxic to pretty much anything, plants, bacteria etc..


I've been wondering what the upper limit for ammonia is on the beneficial bacteria. Can you point me to a source for that? For some reason my Google-Fu has failed me.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I forgot what paper I read it from but 4ppm seems to be the number I remember. It's toxic on plants at that number too.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...eria&btnG=Search&as_sdt=0,36&as_ylo=&as_vis=1


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Dr. Tim Hovanek has shown that 5 ppm is about the upper level for ammonia and for nitrite for the nitrifying bacteria. Google that name and look for papers and similar reports of his studies about the bacteria that are responsible for the nitrogen cycle. Somewhere in that I remember reading it. He also has a web site. Maybe it was in the 'fishless cycle with nitrospira' article at his site. 

Also, the scientists that developed the fishless cycle instructions that I keep posting also found that starting with 5 ppm got the cycle off to the fastest start. But the ammonia removing bacteria would grow so fast they would produce too much nitrite before the second group of bacteria were ready, so the nitrite would go too high (over 5 ppm). That is why the method is to provide 5 ppm ammonia for only the first few days. Test daily. At the first sign of nitrite, allow the ammonia to drop to 3 ppm, and maintain it there through the rest of the fishless cycle. 
This was on line quite a few years ago, but that site is no longer there, and I do not remember the names of the scientists who studied this. 

Diana Walstad, Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, page 20:
Plants differ in their tolerance for ammonia. 
Some plants are OK, or just a slight reduction in growth at ammonia levels between 3.2 and 9.6 mg/l (ppm). Some can even handle higher amounts (to 26 mg/l)
Other plants cannot handle even .9 mg/l


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

Thanx Diana. I thought you were Diana L. Walstad when I first saw the intelligence and expertize in your posts these last few weeks, but she lives on the other coast.

I'll start at 5 and let it drop to 3 and keep it there for awhile until the cycle is done. I've got to get a nitrite test kit too, but I'm too broke after spending $$$ so far on this little 20L to get it set up to this point. Maybe I can get some spare change from people who want me to fix their infested computers LOL.


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## CaliKid (Feb 20, 2012)

Good timing on this thread. Hope you don't mind if I jump aboard. Actually using this method right now to get my cycle started. I'm using the Salifert Ammonia test kit and the results are in mg/L. Does anyone know how this translates to ppm?


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## jccaclimber (Aug 29, 2011)

^They are the same.


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## CaliKid (Feb 20, 2012)

jccaclimber said:


> ^They are the same.


Thank you


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

I am not Diana Walstad. I admire her work, and have read her book and use it for a reference. (Of course, always with a note as to where I got that info)

My background is in horticulture, including soil chemistry, botany, entomology, landscape design, blueprint reading (when they were really blue), irrigation, and basically anything you need to know to design and install ornamental landscape. I use Autocad, now, but can still draw designs by hand. I have done enough installations to have ruined my back, so now I just do the design part. In the words of Frank Lloyd Wright, "You cannot design anything until you know how to build it". Been there; Done that. 

I have also been a beekeeper, and caretaker for a disabled child whose mother was very interested in nutritional healing.


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## CaliKid (Feb 20, 2012)

Was dosing ammonia to reach approx 4-5 ppm. Started dosing 5 drops per 10 gal. I have a 75g, so I just rounded to 80. 40 drops which ended up being approx. 0.5 ml. Waited an hour. Tested. Barely registered. I'm dosing the ACE janitorial strength ammonia and using the Salifert ammonia test kit. Added more ammonia (same dose). Waited another hour. Still nothing. Added more ammonia. Hour later tested. Maybe .25 ppm. So, now I'm thinking screw it. I don't have any livestock in the tank, so I add like 75ml. Waited an hour. Tested. Ok, now it's up to 1.0 ppm. So I add 100ml this time (really throw some stank on it) hour later test. Still at 1.0 ppm. The room is starting to smell like ammonia. This is getting ridiculous. I stop dosing, so I don't pass out. It dawns on me. The BRAND NEW test kit I got from Marine Depot is crap. I checked the exp. and it doesn't expire till feb next year, but that's just a sticker with a date someone typed on there. Stopped by Petsmart today on my way home from work. Got those simple test strips. Tested and whamo! Frickin thing turned blue right away. BTW, blue isn't even on the radar. Doing a massive water change now. Anyhow, just wanted to share


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

I got API test kits. Seem to be working.


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

OK my initial ammonia dose was 3 ml for 5ppm. Now it's zeroed out and the nitrite is 1-2ppm after a few days.

I added another 2.5 ml of ammonia for ~3-4ppm. Looks like the nitrite bacteria are slower to build up than the ammonia bacteria as predicted.

How long should the complete process from ammonia to nitrite to nitrate take to know that the tank is fully cycled and ready for some fauna?

Once the cycling is done, I'll finish up with the rest of the water column shrimp ready parameters.


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## xxbenjamminxx (Aug 8, 2011)

To know if it is fully cycled or not you would be able to dose around 2-3 ppm of ammonia and within 24 hours your testing should show no signs of ammonia or nitrite, only nitrate. That is how I learned from other forums over the years and used quite successfully at that. 

Also, yes the bacteria that convert nitrite to nitrate are slower to build up then the ammonia to nitrite ones. Everytime I did it it took around 3 weeks, give or take with completely new unseeded media. If I used seeded media I have added fauna as early as around 9 days after zero readings for nitrite.


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

I found this helpful post in another TPT thread:


Diana said:


> The bacteria that change ammonia to nitrite grow pretty fast, and can produce nitrite faster than the nitrite removing bacteria can grow. Even when you add the right species of bacteria, the ammonia removing ones get going faster.
> 
> The nitrite removing bacteria grow slowly. They are removing as much nitrite as they can (turning it into nitrate) but the other bacteria are growing faster. You added plenty of these when you added the right species of bacteria (Nitrospira), they just take a few days to get going, to catch up with the ammonia removing bacteria.
> 
> ...


Fishless Cycling from Age of Aquariums.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

A fishless cycle, starting with no bacteria, takes 3 weeks. 

The item posted by Steve was an answer to someone with a substrate that keeps adding ammonia to the water. This is a handy way to do the fishless cycle, but it can add too much ammonia, so you still need to fine tune it with water changes. Their cycle had stalled with high nitrite, if I remember, and the soil was producing less ammonia. 

I read the link to Age of Aquariums. 
Couple of problems with it:
If you want to use a bacterial supplement look for Nitrospiros species of bacteria. All other 'cycle in a bottle' products have the wrong species of bacteria. 
At the end of the cycle you can fully stock the tank. If you do not the bacteria will die off to match the fish load. Then, later, you add more fish (thinking the bacteria are still there) the tank goes through another cycle, stressing the original fish and the new fish, as well as the aquarium keeper who now has to do as many water changes as needed to keep things under control.


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

1 day later: NH3 = 0 ppm, NO2 = 1 ppm

Added another 3ml NH3 dose ^3.5 ppm

Looks like some activity in the NO2 bacteria is starting up. The NH3 bacteria are already kickin' @$$.


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

OK I thought I had only 1 ppm NO2 based on the color card, but after a 95% water change it's still off the chart magenta even though it looks purple. So the NO2 beasties haven't even gotten started yet.

My tap and 45gal tank are light blue 0 ppm as expected.


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## CaliKid (Feb 20, 2012)

audioaficionado said:


> OK I thought I had only 1 ppm NO2 based on the color card, but after a 95% water change it's still off the chart magenta even though it looks purple. So the NO2 beasties haven't even gotten started yet.
> 
> My tap and 45gal tank are light blue 0 ppm as expected.


Ok. I was jealous because I haven't registered any NO2 yet. Ammonia holding steady around 4-5 ppm according to the API test strip 

Got some nice slime building up on the substrate.

Oh ya, I'm also dosing the "Special Blend Microbe Lift" bacteria.

I totally missed the KH requirements for the cycle. Checked params yesterday. Didn't realize our water supply in El Dorado County was so soft. It was around 1-2 KH. Dosed Superbuffer dKH yesterday. Tested today and I'm at 5-6 KH. We'll see how things go over the next few days. Testing ammonia and nitrite.


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## VeeSe (Apr 16, 2011)

audioaficionado said:


> OK I thought I had only 1 ppm NO2 based on the color card, but after a 95% water change it's still off the chart magenta even though it looks purple. So the NO2 beasties haven't even gotten started yet.
> 
> My tap and 45gal tank are light blue 0 ppm as expected.


NO2 readings will remain very high for awhile, and then one day they suddenly will be down close to 0, quickly reaching 0 and staying there.


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

Well they are 20x5ppm based on the dilution. Sounds kinda crazy. I put in some more NH3 to keep those bacteria live. I'll do another 95% water change tomorrow.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Microbe Lift's Nite Out II has Nitrospira. I am not sure if their other products have the correct species of nitrifying bacteria. Some of their products are more heterotrophic bacteria and other microorganisms. Good, and useful in an aquarium, just not the ones you are aiming at growing with the fishless cycle.


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

So I'll look for Nitrospira on the bottles. I don't know if wringing out my cycled tank's poly filter sleeve into the new tank will do the trick or just blow dirt into it.


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## CaliKid (Feb 20, 2012)

Several days into fishless cycle and still no nitrites. Ammonia steady at 4 ppm since the 10th. KH at 6dKH. If I don't see any nitrites by Friday, I'll try adding a few plants from the LFS and see if they'll allow me to borrow some used filter media. I just need to be patient I suppose.

Tank: 75G
Lighting: 4 x 54watt T5 HO
CO2 injected. (drop checker lime green with approx 5 bps)
Substrate: 2 in. Of MGOPM Capped with 2in. Of Black Beauty Coal Slag.
Filtration: Eheim 2215
Temp: 80 deg. F.
PH: 6.6


Anything I should be doing besides waiting for nitrifying bacteria to show up? Was thinking of hiring one of those people that dance on the street corner with a sign. "Hey Bacteria! This way to the tank cycling party!"


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

> ...wringing out my cycled tank's poly filter sleeve into the new tank...


You might squeeze some bacteria off it, but the bacteria grow in a biofilm that is pretty well stuck to the material. How about put the floss into the new filter? Then you are guaranteed to be adding the bacteria. 


Calikid, I am not sure what is going on, but can you reduce the CO2, allow the pH to come up closer to neutral? I have heard a lot of cycling problems when the pH is an the acidic side of neutral. 
After it is cycled you can drop the pH and the bacteria may slow down, but the plants are part of the cycle, too.


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

It's a poly sleeve from my Magnum 350 canister. I don't want to chop it up, but I could just let it float in the tank so some of the bacteria could migrate around the 20L tank. If the nitrites start dropping, then I'll know they are present and will spread around with the food source.


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## CaliKid (Feb 20, 2012)

Diana said:


> Calikid, I am not sure what is going on, but can you reduce the CO2, allow the pH to come up closer to neutral? I have heard a lot of cycling problems when the pH is an the acidic side of neutral.
> After it is cycled you can drop the pH and the bacteria may slow down, but the plants are part of the cycle, too.



Thank you Diana. I'll give that a shot.


75G high tech

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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

Alrighty then... I didn't add that filter sleeve yet, but just measured and got zero on both NH3 & NO2. I'll keep adding 3ml of ACE ammonia every day until I'm ready to start stocking this puppy. Time to start working on the other shrimp water parameters and get some plants in the tank. I'll finalize the hard scape too.


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## CaliKid (Feb 20, 2012)

I HAVE NITRITES!!!!

YES!!!

Doing cartwheels!!!!


75G high tech

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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Way to go! (Both of you)


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