# please help with my Rotala macrandra 'Red-Variegated' 's issue



## StevePham (Dec 23, 2017)

Hello everyone,

I have a problem with my Rotala macrandra 'Red-Variegated'. The top, new leaves are red and nice but the old ones near the root look like they are dying



















My tank's information: (EI dosing with csm+b)
No3 15-25 ppm
Po4 1-2 ppm
K+ : 15 ppm
Fe: 1-1.5 ppm
Co2 30-40ppm (kh 1.5, pH 6.0 - 6.1)
gH 7-8
Ca 35-40 ppm
Mg 7-10 ppm

lighting: t8 1-1,5wat / litterm 10 hours / day
tds 140

Could you please tell me what is likely a problem?
Thanks in advance


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Are those nutrient values the total of what's in the water column?

May not have enough light to make it happy. That ludwigia red(?) behind it...doesnt look very red


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## StevePham (Dec 23, 2017)

burr740 said:


> Are those nutrient values the total of what's in the water column?
> 
> May not have enough light to make it happy. That ludwigia red(?) behind it...doesnt look very red


Thank you, Sir.

Those nutrient values I got from test kit (sera, api) and they can change a bit every day. I am trying to keep them in range that is not too high or low.

 Actually, my lights are nice and the ludwigia red looks really red, far different from the photo (maybe because of my old camera). Also although I have a good level of co2 (sometimes 44 -50 ppm), I still have some green spot algae and I am considering using less light.
I planted these Rotala macrandra red too close to one another, do you think that may be the cause?

btw I've been following your journal and I have to say that your tanks are amazing Sir.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Thanks for the compliment!

Being too close together is not a problem I think.

Assuming light is good, and CO2 is good, just looking at the dosing you could probably stand more P, which would also coincide with old growth issues and the GSA.

My tanks do better with P in the 5-10 range. And I know many other folks as well do better with higher P levels. I'd try doubling up on P for a couple of weeks and see what happens. 

NO3 and K arent exactly high either. Since you apparently have high light, high co2, and high micros and Fe - the last thing you want to do is limit macros.

Trying to dose according to test kits really doesnt work, plants are the best test kit. There is virtually zero risk from running higher levels of macros.


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## StevePham (Dec 23, 2017)

burr740 said:


> Thanks for the compliment!
> 
> Being too close together is not a problem I think.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice. I will definitely try raising my macros and observe the plants. I totally agree that there is almost no risk from running higher macros with high light and co2.

Once again Sir, thanks for your help.


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## StevePham (Dec 23, 2017)

burr740 said:


> Thanks for the compliment!
> 
> Being too close together is not a problem I think.
> 
> ...


Sorry to bother you but I was wondering if you could help me again?
I have been raising my Po4 level to 7-10 ppm now and the plants look good. However I notice that when I added more kh2po4, my tank looks a little cloudy now (it was very clear before). I check my pH and it was 5.5- 5.8 with co2. Nh3 and No2 are still 0, no3 25 ppm. The fish and plants are fine but the cloudy water really bothers me.
I was thinking that the reason for this cloudy water is the high amount of Po4 will contact with the FE to form Fepo4? or just because my co2 is too high and the bacteria can't work well under pH 6?
Could you and anyone please help me understand and solve this problem?
Thanks.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Are you dosing NPK and micros on different days?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

burr740 said:


> Are those nutrient values the total of what's in the water column?
> 
> May not have enough light to make it happy. That ludwigia red(?) behind it...doesnt look very red


I have to agree with @burr740. Have you ever tested your light with a PAR meter?

There is a BIG difference between T8 and T5HO with individual reflectors.

Rot. Macranda Var. is a pretty tricky plant for many. In my experience, it needs LOTS of light to get to it's full potential. For reference, Burr is running 324W on his 120G and I am running 376W on my 120G. And I would say we both have some success with it, but not perfect. Like I said, tricky plant.

And it's odd how the lower leaves are so large and have lost their color. Not typical growth when it's happy.

Just saying messing with ferts etc. can only do so much.


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## StevePham (Dec 23, 2017)

MCFC said:


> Are you dosing NPK and micros on different days?


actually I made a mistake once when I dosed macros and micros on the same day, and the next morning I could see the water turning cloudy. So I change 50% water and it looked much clearer. The problem is that although some days later I dosed them on different days, the water kept turning cloudy again. 
What should I do to get rid of that? Should I put some purigen into my filter? Will purigen remove all of my Po4? or should I just reduce the Po4 level?
thanks

Bump:


Greggz said:


> I have to agree with @burr740. Have you ever tested your light with a PAR meter?
> 
> There is a BIG difference between T8 and T5HO with individual reflectors.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your useful information. I am thinking of buying one affordable PAR meter like the DIY version of Hobby but I don't know how to.
about hight light, I also am always asking myself why GSA always appears in my tank despite very high co2 (40-50 ppm) and good nutrient.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

StevePham said:


> about hight light, I also am always asking myself why GSA always appears in my tank despite very high co2 (40-50 ppm) and good nutrient.


I know you are thinking you have algae and maybe your lights are too high.....but maybe they are too low?

Stem plants like Macranda that like high light in general don't do well in low light. And plants that are weak and growing poorly (generally unhappy) are magnets to algae. 

IMO, the best defense against algae is happy plants. Concentrate on growing plants and not defeating algae.

But then again, as usual, I could be completely wrong, but that is what I have observed in my own tank.


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## StevePham (Dec 23, 2017)

Greggz said:


> I know you are thinking you have algae and maybe your lights are too high.....but maybe they are too low?
> 
> Stem plants like Macranda that like high light in general don't do well in low light. And plants that are weak and growing poorly (generally unhappy) are magnets to algae.
> 
> ...


I am using nearly 320w T8 for my 300 liter tank (75 gal), some of the t8 bulbs are Osram 865 and Jbl natural 9000k. I am not sure that I need some more lights but I think I am going to switch to t5ho soon.
About the cloudy water, would you give me some advice? thanks in advance.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

StevePham said:


> Sorry to bother you but I was wondering if you could help me again?
> I have been raising my Po4 level to 7-10 ppm now and the plants look good. However I notice that when I added more kh2po4, my tank looks a little cloudy now (it was very clear before). I check my pH and it was 5.5- 5.8 with co2. Nh3 and No2 are still 0, no3 25 ppm. The fish and plants are fine but the cloudy water really bothers me.
> I was thinking that the reason for this cloudy water is the high amount of Po4 will contact with the FE to form Fepo4? or just because my co2 is too high and the bacteria can't work well under pH 6?
> Could you and anyone please help me understand and solve this problem?
> Thanks.


What type of Fe are you dosing? (dtpa, edta, gluconate, etc)

That's a pretty low PH. Fe gluconate is prone to precipitate in PHs around 7 or higher causing cloudy water (especially Seachem Flourish products) but with yours being so low I wouldnt think that'd be the case.

Im not entirely sure exactly how, and under what circumstances these reactions occur, but it does sound it could be the result of precipitation. Maybe somebody else has a better idea what might be happening

Are you sure its not a bacterial bloom? You could do a 60-70% water change and go back to lower P level for a few days. if the water remains clear then it's probably a precipitation/binding thing. If the water gets cloudy again then its probably a bacterial bloom unrelated to dosing.



StevePham said:


> actually I made a mistake once when I dosed macros and micros on the same day, and the next morning I could see the water turning cloudy. So I change 50% water and it looked much clearer. The problem is that although some days later I dosed them on different days, the water kept turning cloudy again.
> What should I do to get rid of that? Should I put some purigen into my filter? Will purigen remove all of my Po4? or should I just reduce the Po4 level?
> thanks


Purigen wont remove P, and I dont believe it would help cloudy water as a result of precipitation. Either way, best thing to do is figure out what's causing it in the first place.



StevePham said:


> Thanks for your useful information. I am thinking of buying one affordable PAR meter like the DIY version of Hobby but I don't know how to.
> about hight light, I also am always asking myself why GSA always appears in my tank despite very high co2 (40-50 ppm) and good nutrient.


Can you tank a picture of the light fixture, showing the bulbs and reflector? I think we could give you a good general idea based on that.

Chronic GSA is a typical sign of low P fwiw, but of course it could be other things as well such as too much light


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

StevePham said:


> I am using nearly 320w T8 for my 300 liter tank (75 gal), some of the t8 bulbs are Osram 865 and Jbl natural 9000k. I am not sure that I need some more lights but I think I am going to switch to t5ho soon.


Wish I could help you there, I just have no frame of reference for PAR values of T8 bulbs. 

I mean who knows, maybe it is high light. I just doubt it, as I know good individual reflectors make a huge difference in PAR. 

And are you saying you have ten T8 bulbs over that tank? Boy they must be squeezed in tight.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Macrandra seems to flourish with 100PAR or higher.
I tried @ 60-80 and results were similar to OP.


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## StevePham (Dec 23, 2017)

Greggz said:


> Wish I could help you there, I just have no frame of reference for PAR values of T8 bulbs.
> 
> I mean who knows, maybe it is high light. I just doubt it, as I know good individual reflectors make a huge difference in PAR.
> 
> And are you saying you have ten T8 bulbs over that tank? Boy they must be squeezed in tight.


actually I have only 8 T8 bulbs, 40w each, some osram 865 are 36w each.

Bump:


Maryland Guppy said:


> Macrandra seems to flourish with 100PAR or higher.
> I tried @ 60-80 and results were similar to OP.


Thanks, I think I really need a PAR meter but it's not easy to buy one here in Vietnam.
Would you suggest any ideas to deal with cloudy water when I just accidentally added too much Po4 on the same day of Csm+b? I changed 50% water and it looked much clearer but the next day it turned cloudy again. Also my pH is quite low (5.6 -5.8) because of co2, is that the cause of that cloudy water too?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

StevePham said:


> actually I have only 8 T8 bulbs, 40w each, some osram 865 are 36w each.


Are you sure about that? I thought all regular T8 bulbs were 32W?



StevePham said:


> Thanks, I think I really need a PAR meter but it's not easy to buy one here in Vietnam.
> Would you suggest any ideas to deal with cloudy water when I just accidentally added too much Po4 on the same day of Csm+b? I changed 50% water and it looked much clearer but the next day it turned cloudy again. Also my pH is quite low (5.6 -5.8) because of co2, is that the cause of that cloudy water too?


I would go along with everything Burr740 said above. Put it this way, if I had the same problem, he is the one I would ask.

That being said, on my own tank, my pH is at about 5.90 with CO2 on. I dose micros every day, so they get mixed with a large dose of PO4, and I have not seen similar cloudiness. My iron comes from DTPA. 

So who knows? Could be bacterial bloom like Burr said. Tough one. Hope you get it figured out.


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## StevePham (Dec 23, 2017)

Greggz said:


> Are you sure about that? I thought all regular T8 bulbs were 32W?
> 
> 
> I would go along with everything Burr740 said above. Put it this way, if I had the same problem, he is the one I would ask.
> ...


my t8 bulb is jebo 10000k and it says 40w each. Jbl t8 9000k 36w and Osram 865 36w, I am pretty sure because all the watts numbers are printed on the bulbs. Maybe because the bulbs are 120cm in length, so the watts are high.

Thanks for your time. I will try to sold this problem and report the result soon.


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## StevePham (Dec 23, 2017)

burr740 said:


> What type of Fe are you dosing? (dtpa, edta, gluconate, etc)
> 
> That's a pretty low PH. Fe gluconate is prone to precipitate in PHs around 7 or higher causing cloudy water (especially Seachem Flourish products) but with yours being so low I wouldnt think that'd be the case.
> 
> ...


thanks. I was looking forward to your reply.
my FE source is from csm+b and I think it is EDTA?
I am not sure about the bacterial bloom but when I checked my nh3/nh4 and no2 level, they were all 0.
I am taking some pictures of the bulbs and showing you guys tomorrow.
As suggested I will do a big water change and keep my po4 low as under 4 ppm for a few days.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @StevePham,

Your data does not show your location, do you live where the water is pretty soft? I did not see information on you dGH or dKH do you have that information?


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## StevePham (Dec 23, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @StevePham,
> 
> Your data does not show your location, do you live where the water is pretty soft? I did not see information on you dGH or dKH do you have that information?


hi Roy, 
I am from Vietnam and I am using tap water, gH = 3 (Ca 20 ppm and Mg 5-7 ppm). I dose Mgso4 and Cacl2 to reach gH 6-7 every time I do a water change.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @StevePham,

I downloaded and added arrows to the pictures you provided; this is what I observe:

Picture #1








Arrow #1 on the right side of the photo shows the classic leaf "hooking" downward on a newer leaf typical of a Ca deficiency; arrow #1 on the left side of the photo shows the same leaf "hook" downward on an older leaf indicating the problem has persisted for some time. Not all of the leaves show the symptom which may indicate you are close to a correct Ca level but could use a little more.

Picture #2








Arrow #1 points to the same classic leaf "hook" downward described above. Arrow #2 points to an older leaf where the the leaf is losing its color, other older leaves in the photo are showing chlorosis (yellowing). Directly above the #2 arrow is another leave just starting to loose color in its leaf tip; do you notice the 'cupping' of the leaf along the leaf margins? It could be a lighting issue as mentioned above or it could be a mobile nutrient issue. At first I thought maybe a phosphorus (PO4) issue but that deficiency typically causes smaller new leaves which we do not see in your photo. Magnesium (Mg) is another mobile nutrient that plants will 'steal' from older leaves to support new growth. An Mg deficiency can cause the chlorosis we see in the older leaves with the vein portion of the leaves retaining the leaf color longer than the interveinal areas. An Mg deficiency can also cause leave margins to cause the leaf margins to cause 'cupping' (either upward or downward). I suggest increasing the Mg dosing in your tank.

_*The existing leaves will not change with any increasing of dosing.*_ However the benefits of increased calcium dosing should show up in the next couple of weeks as the new leaves emerge, the downward "hooking" on the leave tips should no longer occur. The benefits of increasing the magnesium dosing will take longer, as leaves mature they should better retain the normal leaf color although since they will be shaded they may not be as intense in color as leaves closer to the light source. The 'cupping' should not longer occur. Hope this helps! -Roy


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## StevePham (Dec 23, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @StevePham,
> 
> I downloaded and added arrows to the pictures you provided; this is what I observe:
> 
> ...


Great! Thanks a lot Roy. I will raise my Ca and Mg to reach the safe levels and I think there will be almost no risk with a little high gH, say about 7-8.
And I just changed my bulbs to T5HO and hope that the plants will be happier.
Thanks again.


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## StevePham (Dec 23, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @StevePham,
> 
> I downloaded and added arrows to the pictures you provided; this is what I observe:
> 
> ...





burr740 said:


> Thanks for the compliment!
> 
> Being too close together is not a problem I think.
> 
> ...





Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @StevePham,
> 
> Your data does not show your location, do you live where the water is pretty soft? I did not see information on you dGH or dKH do you have that information?


Excuse me 
@Seattle_Aquarist
@burr740
Could you guys help me again?
I recently changed all my T8 bulbs to Odysea T5HO and because of the new hight light I have some other problems with the tank and some plants. Just after a few hours, the glass of my tank is covered by green Algae (not the Green Spot), I have to clean them twice a day, and the water looks green also.
My co2 is still good (over 40ppm), and all the nutrition and the fish are fine:
No3 30ppm
Po4 4-10 ppm
K 20 ppm
Fe 0.5 ppm
Ca 40 ppm
Mg 15-19 ppm
kh 1,5 pH 5.7-5.8

















Could you guys give me some suggestions? Thanks


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Macrandra seems to flourish with 100PAR or higher.
> I tried @ 60-80 and results were similar to OP.


am not sure about 100 PAR, but it grew fine under 40-80 PAR, i think thread owner might be having issue with Nutrients, those symptoms were quite normal in my tank while using csm+B


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

StevePham said:


> Excuse me
> @*Seattle_Aquarist*
> @*burr740*
> Could you guys help me again?
> ...


Sounds like you simply have too much light now, which would explain the green dust algae. Going from T8 to T5HO is quite a jump.

Are they all 6500K bulbs? It looks like it from the pic. Swap at least half of them out for red/pink flora type bulbs. This will lower PAR and also be better for the plants color.

TureLumen Flora and Zoomed Flora Sun are good economical bulbs. Geishman Flora if you want to spend more money.

I dont think there's much problem with the plants themselves. Growth looks pretty good to me. They arent stunted, just rather poor color.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Agree with Burr above. 

Curious how much T5HO did you add? And how long are the lights on?

The right colored bulbs can bring down PAR.

And having an algae outbreak like that when you suddenly change PAR is pretty normal. When I increased my lighting, same thing happened, but got better pretty quickly as things adjusted.

I'd also double up on tank maintenance. Large water change, vacuum substrate, remove any pieces of dead or dying plants, trim/prune where needed, clean filters, etc.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @StevePham,

Going from T8 to T5HO effectively doubled the amount of light going into your tank; a T8 lamp puts out about almost exactly 1/2 the amount of light as a T5HO lamp. I am guessing you did not shorten the photoperiod to compensate for the higher light output so right now you are running eight (8) 54 watt T5HO lamps (or 432 watts) over your 75 gallon tank for 10 hours per day.....is that correct?


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## matty101 (Jan 8, 2018)

I think the plant is fine its just the lower leaves arent getting as much light as the top ones and is reverting back to green i wouldnt worry if it is growin well then its happy. 

Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk


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## StevePham (Dec 23, 2017)

burr740 said:


> Sounds like you simply have too much light now, which would explain the green dust algae. Going from T8 to T5HO is quite a jump.
> 
> Are they all 6500K bulbs? It looks like it from the pic. Swap at least half of them out for red/pink flora type bulbs. This will lower PAR and also be better for the plants color.
> 
> ...


I have 4 6500k bulbs and some 10000k, 1 pink. I still have 1 spare pink bulb so I will swap it with 1 6500k soon,
I am a little worried that if I use 4 pink /red bulbs, the water and the tank would look pink and dark too.
Anyway, assume I have high PAR, what should I do to get rid of the green algae aside from using less PAR?
Thanks

Bump:


Greggz said:


> Agree with Burr above.
> 
> Curious how much T5HO did you add? And how long are the lights on?
> 
> ...


I used 8 t8 Bulbs (40w each) and I just changed to 8 T5HO (54w each) and they are on for 8 hours / day.
You are right about the algae break after my sudden change. I could really feel it. I just wonder how you got better so quickly after you increased your lighting? just double up your tank maintenance?
Thanks


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## StevePham (Dec 23, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @StevePham,
> 
> Going from T8 to T5HO effectively doubled the amount of light going into your tank; a T8 lamp puts out about almost exactly 1/2 the amount of light as a T5HO lamp. I am guessing you did not shorten the photoperiod to compensate for the higher light output so right now you are running eight (8) 54 watt T5HO lamps (or 432 watts) over your 75 gallon tank for 10 hours per day.....is that correct?


Hi Roy, thanks for the reply.
You are definitely correct about my lighting system sudden change. I was running 8 t8 (40w) for my 75 gallon tank for 8 hours a day; and then I changed all of them to T5Ho (54w each) but I still kept the same period of 8 hours. I thought I just had to increase the Co2 level but I was wrong then. 
So are you saying that I should shorten the lighting period? How long do you think I should run the light?
In case I still want to keep 8 hours and these 8 t5ho, is there any possibility?
Thanks again,


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

StevePham said:


> I have 4 6500k bulbs and some 10000k, 1 pink. I still have 1 spare pink bulb so I will swap it with 1 6500k soon,
> I am a little worried that if I use 4 pink /red bulbs, the water and the tank would look pink and dark too.


Yeah not all reds, use one or two whites along with them. The 10000K is probably less PAR as well (depending on the brand) I'd throw one of those in the mix.

Something like two floras, a 6500K and the 10000K


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @StevePham,

Normally I look at PAR/hours but lumen/hours will work too. I believe that most T8 / 48" lamps are 32 watts and depending upon spectrum put out about 2500 lumens so you were running 8 X 2500 X 8 hours or 160,000 lumen hours before changing your lamps. Now you have T5HO which typically put out about 5000 lumens so your total light is 8 X 5000 X 8 hours 320,000 lumen hours. A photoperiod of four (4) hours with the new T5HO lamps would give you an equivalent amount of lumen hours as T8 lamps were giving you in the past. Now if you wanted to increase the photoperiod longer than four (4) hours then the CO2 and other nutrients would have to increase as well.

If it were me I would start with a four (4) hour photoperiod and gradually increase the photoperiod 1/2 hour every week or two making sure the CO2 level is maintained and increasing the nutrients to compensate for the increased light. I run my tanks at medium/high PAR, typically 80 to 100 PAR at the substrate level and do a split photoperiod where the lights are on two hours in the morning and 2-1/2 hours in the evening.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

StevePham said:


> I used 8 t8 Bulbs (40w each) and I just changed to 8 T5HO (54w each) and they are on for 8 hours / day.
> You are right about the algae break after my sudden change. I could really feel it. I just wonder how you got better so quickly after you increased your lighting? just double up your tank maintenance?
> Thanks


Your tank is a 75 gallon, right? If so, that is a 4 foot tank 18" front to back?

If that's true, 8 x 54w T5HO is a HUGE amount of light. 

I run 6 bulbs over my 120G, and run 4 of them for 4 hours and all six for 4 hours. And that is very high light.

If I were you, I would only run 4 bulbs for awhile. I can't imagine you would ever want to run 8 bulbs over that tank.

And yes, in my case I kept things uber clean for a couple of weeks. It went away pretty quickly.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Wait you have 8 bulbs??? For some reason I thought there was 4, lol

Does the fixture have a single reflector for all the bulbs or is it contoured around each bulb, which would be called having individual reflectors?

If its the latter, definitely go down to only 4 bulbs!


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## StevePham (Dec 23, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @StevePham,
> 
> Normally I look at PAR/hours but lumen/hours will work too. I believe that most T8 / 48" lamps are 32 watts and depending upon spectrum put out about 2500 lumens so you were running 8 X 2500 X 8 hours or 160,000 lumen hours before changing your lamps. Now you have T5HO which typically put out about 5000 lumens so your total light is 8 X 5000 X 8 hours 320,000 lumen hours. A photoperiod of four (4) hours with the new T5HO lamps would give you an equivalent amount of lumen hours as T8 lamps were giving you in the past. Now if you wanted to increase the photoperiod longer than four (4) hours then the CO2 and other nutrients would have to increase as well.
> 
> If it were me I would start with a four (4) hour photoperiod and gradually increase the photoperiod 1/2 hour every week or two making sure the CO2 level is maintained and increasing the nutrients to compensate for the increased light. I run my tanks at medium/high PAR, typically 80 to 100 PAR at the substrate level and do a split photoperiod where the lights are on two hours in the morning and 2-1/2 hours in the evening.





burr740 said:


> Yeah not all reds, use one or two whites along with them. The 10000K is probably less PAR as well (depending on the brand) I'd throw one of those in the mix.
> 
> Something like two floras, a 6500K and the 10000K





Greggz said:


> Your tank is a 75 gallon, right? If so, that is a 4 foot tank 18" front to back?
> 
> If that's true, 8 x 54w T5HO is a HUGE amount of light.
> 
> ...





burr740 said:


> Wait you have 8 bulbs??? For some reason I thought there was 4, lol
> 
> Does the fixture have a single reflector for all the bulbs or is it contoured around each bulb, which would be called having individual reflectors?
> 
> If its the latter, definitely go down to only 4 bulbs!


many thanks to you cool guys. I've been asking for help again and again and you guys just never let me down. I think I've finally figured it out. My sudden change of the lighting system without giving my tank any chances to adapt is definitely the cause. I am now trying to reduce the photoperiod as well as do some more maintenance. I'll report the result soon.


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