# Green Water Experiment



## xcooperx (Jun 21, 2006)

Okay, i just won the battle on Brown Algae and Green Spot Algae, Now GREEN WATER is my new enemy, Hrrrrr... My tank is showing some haziness and i assumed its green water algae, the problem started when i dose IE Dosing 1/8KNO3 and 1/32 KH2PO4, i research some articles that exess nutrients also trigger green algae, so may be this is the cause. Tom. Sunday i ill be making 50% water change and temporarily stop dosing ferts for the moment and see what happen, Overdosing on my tank can be due in using 1/4 tsp in measuring 1/8 and 1/32 so i went to Linen and Things and bought some measuring spoon (pinch, smidgen, dash and Nip). 

Some Details:
Tank is Running for 1 month, Fully Planted
29 Gal.
100% Flourite
65watts CF + 20watts NO
DIY co2 2x2liter bottle
Aquaclear 50

Note: Not planning to buy UV light, Micro Filter etc.....


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## Marilyn1998 (Mar 8, 2006)

Dont stop dosing, it starves the plants and doesnt affect the green water algae at all. also, WATER CHANGES increases it!!! Loves the fresh water and O2. 

If you dont want to buy a uv or diatom, then doa 4 day TOTAL blackout. clean as much as you can, then blackout with garbage bags. dont forget the hoses, too. dont peak. dont feed, dont WC. after 4 days, open up the tank and do a good water change.

Good luck.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

IF you are the patient type, there is a simple way to get rid of green water.

Wait it out. New tanks without any seeding (used substrate, muck, water and/or filter pads from established tanks) go through these cycles. Water changes will not get rid of GW, unless something is fundamentally out of whack with the tank water (like if you get GW in an established tank).

So, to repeat myself... if you are the patient type, let it get really thick, then stop water changes for 8 to 10 days. The soup will get even thicker, and after a couple of days clear up all by itself, never to return.

Most ppl are not that patient... most end up spending a lot of money for UV or DE, and IME blackout doesn't always keep it from coming back.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Wasserpest said:


> IF you are the patient type, there is a simple way to get rid of green water.
> 
> Wait it out. New tanks without any seeding (used substrate, muck, water and/or filter pads from established tanks) go through these cycles. Water changes will not get rid of GW, unless something is fundamentally out of whack with the tank water (like if you get GW in an established tank).
> 
> ...


This is interesting! Do you think green water is like Green dust algae in that if it lives out its life cycle it cures itself? If so, does that mean it starts as a zoospore, as GDA does, then becomes an adult algae which isn't nearly as robust as the zoospore? I hope this is true!!


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Honestly I don't know... My suggestion is based on experience and things I read from others.

My theory is that GW algae need very specific conditions to flourish. And there are two situations where that most likely occurs: 1) in a brand-new, unbalanced, unseeded tank and 2) when there is something out of whack in an existing tank (like nutrients/NH4 leaching into the water column).

The "patience" method seems to work very well for 1). The explosion of GW is also its death... the millions of microorgs eat away their nutrient base, and die off. Interesting thing is that they don't return... just like most algae cycles that new tanks go through.

So in that way, I don't think it is like with green dust, although the result is certainly the same -- you wait, it disappears. You work, it sticks around. :flick:


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## vidiots (Jun 17, 2006)

Green water is easily caused by an ammonia spike. It will burn it self out. But the problem you have to worry about is all of that dead algae in the water column causing another ammonia spike. Fine filtering of the water helps, provided it's cleaned frequently. There is a liquid product sold at most pet stores called "filter aid" that helps by clogging the filter and turning a coarse filter into a fine filter.

Another technique I have read about but never actually tried is to put one of those breeders nets in the tank and put a daphnia culture in it. The daphnia are supposed to consume the algae and multiply rapidly, then you can release the daphnia and allow the fish to eat them. I personally have my doubts as to the effectiveness of this method, but I still wouldn't mind testing it, cause the worst that can happen is my fish get a snack, and the green water would persist.

This problem is very common in the first few months of setting up a tank, and very uncommon in older more estabolished tanks. Something else that may help is to get a hold of a dirty filter or some gravel from an estabolished tank and place it in your tank to jump start your bacteria colony which will help remove the excess ammonia.

The ammonia spike sometimes seen in a newly cycled tank, is usually caused by over stocking with fish, or just adding additional fish too soon after the cycle faster than the bacteria can keep up. The plants you have should also help, provided they get enough light filtering through the water and nutrients to grow well, which is where the fine filter really helps.

Don't be discouraged if it doesn't all go away immediately, it will eventually go away, even if you do nothing.


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## guaiac_boy (Nov 5, 2005)

The surest way for me to create GW is to give the substrate a good stir. There seems to be a certain threshold though. Disturbing a little = no problems at all. Disturbing a lot = enormous GW bloom. IME it does eventually go away, but it can take a while, even longer than green dust.

I have a completely unproven theory that, in my tank at least, potassium is limitted in GW conditions. On three different occasions I've been able to knock it out by stopping KNO3 dosing for a week and dosing extra K2SO4. I do test NO3 with a Lamotte kit to make sure it doesn't bottom out. I freely admit that this association is likely to be a coincidence, but I'm still playing around with it.


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## bristles (Feb 16, 2006)

I'm too impatient, I came home from a trip to find one of my tanks solid green so I ordered a UV from big Al & in less than 3 days it was clear (see photos) the cost was not that bad & it can help with parasites too ( not that I have them but just in case)


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## TINNGG (Mar 9, 2005)

But I like the fluorescent green.

I have a mini pond (20g) sitting on my deck. I filled it with water from my display tank when doing a w/c. The pond has the first case of green water I've ever seen up close and personal. My display has never had it. I wonder why the difference. The pond was getting the green water before I added fish. Its only plant is a water lily (which I'll have to do something with this winter) I'm not running any cords to this thing. The fish are 6 female bettas so they probably won't be affected by lower oxygen - at least not like other species would.


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## vidiots (Jun 17, 2006)

TINNGG said:


> But I like the fluorescent green.
> I have a mini pond (20g) sitting on my deck. I filled it with water from my display tank when doing a w/c. The pond has the first case of green water I've ever seen up close and personal. My display has never had it. I wonder why the difference. The pond was getting the green water before I added fish. Its only plant is a water lily (which I'll have to do something with this winter) I'm not running any cords to this thing. The fish are 6 female bettas so they probably won't be affected by lower oxygen - at least not like other species would.


In addition to ammonia, direct sunlight from the top and sides, and stagnant water also boost an algae bloom.

The algae and still water will probably attract bugs trying to lay their eggs, and become a nice snack for the fish.


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## TINNGG (Mar 9, 2005)

vidiots said:


> In addition to ammonia, direct sunlight from the top and sides, and stagnant water also boost an algae bloom.
> 
> The algae and still water will probably attract bugs trying to lay their eggs, and become a nice snack for the fish.


Only one side - the top.

I had a regular mosquito farm going there when I added the bettas. They had a feast.


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## steve5520 (Jul 3, 2006)

Wasserpest said:

"_Wait it out. New tanks without any seeding (used substrate, muck, water and/or filter pads from established tanks) go through these cycles. Water changes will not get rid of GW, unless something is fundamentally out of whack with the tank water (like if you get GW in an established tank).

So, to repeat myself... if you are the patient type, let it get really thick, then stop water changes for 8 to 10 days. The soup will get even thicker, and after a couple of days clear up all by itself, never to return."_

My 150 went green after about 6 weeks. I think I may have accidentally helped it by cleaning the filter too soon and modifying the amount of bio substrate that I had in the filter.

In any case, HOW patient? How long (approx) will it take to start to see improvement? It seems to still be getting thicker. I've stopped water changes, I was helping it for a week or so by changing some every day.

Does it help at all to turn the lights off? Not cover it totally (the blackout), but just turning the lights off?

I can be patient, but it's difficult when it's still getting worse instead of better.

Thanks.


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

Marilyn1998 said:


> Dont stop dosing, it starves the plants and doesnt affect the green water algae at all. also, WATER CHANGES increases it!!! Loves the fresh water and O2.


Marilyn, were you being sarcastic? the lack of water Bourne nutrients will kill your algae long before they effect your plants, which can still draw nutrients from your substrate, and store some nutrients in their stem and root systems. fresh water from more frequent water changes, and especially more O2 is exactly what you need to significantly increase to be able to kill algae without adversely affecting your plants.



Marilyn1998 said:


> do a 4 day TOTAL blackout. clean as much as you can, then blackout with garbage bags. dont forget the hoses, too. dont peak. dont feed, dont WC. after 4 days, open up the tank and do a good water change.


i know many "experts" recommend this, but the fact of the matter is there are much better quick and natural ways to kill an algae or an micro organisms plume, then doing a black out, which will also kill or stunt most of your plants, and stress out and eventually kill some of your fish.

-------

bristles, thank you for sharing your UV images and experience. while i can't afford quick fixes like that, it's good to know they are out there, and are so effective.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

steve5520 said:


> Wasserpest said:
> 
> "_Wait it out. New tanks without any seeding (used substrate, muck, water and/or filter pads from established tanks) go through these cycles. Water changes will not get rid of GW, unless something is fundamentally out of whack with the tank water (like if you get GW in an established tank).
> 
> ...


Steve, IME it takes up to 10 days to go from green, very green, thick'n'green, pea soup, to wow, it is clearing up. Getting thicker is part of the suicidal process.

Light doesn't help it either way, I would leave it on because without it, lack of oxygen might develop.

And, don't blame yourself for doing this or that to your filter, fact is that many "virgin" tanks go through this period.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Light and CO2 make a big difference here.
More light=> less chance of beating it through waiting it out, daphnia, blackouts etc.

You cannot wait it out with higher light, you can wait 3 months if you want, still nothing.

If you have 2w.gal, you likely can seed some Daphnia and things might work with a blackout.

But not at high light..........

Starving GW does not work, I'm not sure you have done much with GW if you honestly believe that bull..............no, plants will not get nutrients that supposedly unavailable to algae from the substrate while the algae starve, that's one of the biggest lies around..................algae, this species in particular, needs such small amounts you cannot even test that low.
Plants leach and leak nutrients from the sediement up into the water column also, that's something folks wanting to be enamoured with substrate ferts seems to convienently overlook time and time again.

There are many studies showing that plants clearly add nutrients into the water column from the substrate sediement sources. Plant leaves also may decompose and release nutrients as well. Fish produce small amounts of waste. All these make it very easy for most any algae to live while you go nuts doing all the water changes you want.

You can induce algae by adding dead leaves into the tank.

You can induce algae by stirring up the substrate real good and not doing a water change afterwards(now why might that be and why would a WC help?)

GW is induced by NH4, once it's there, it's nearly impossible to rid of with nutrients or other methods, UV, Diatoms/mechnical micron filtration etc will 100% of the time, but other methods are hit and miss and most of those don't work at all at high light.

Another way to induce GW once you have had it and are not quite out of the woods yet: poor CO2.

The feller has DIY CO2, high PC light, new tank.

All recipes for GW.

To avoid GW: add mulm to any new tank(gravel and filter both), crank the CO2, pack as many plants as you can, dose well and do large frequent water changes.

I never got GW for 15 years till I started using substrate ferts like Jobes sticks..........I used inert sand, I've also used soil and be able to get GW and ADa aqua soil as well by disturbing things, up rooting etc.

I've also be able to induce GW via progressively adding more and more guppies, or ghost shrimp to a tank with high light.

All these things relate to NH4 in the water column and high light being the most significant factors.

I've taken the same lighting and CO2 and added NO3, K+, Fe/traces and PO4 at extremely high levels and have never been able to induce any algae ever.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

interesting Tom. greenwater seems counter intuitive to many algae I have successfully combated in the past. I'm surprised you can't starve GW with no ferts and using a nitrate&phosphate sponge in your canister filter. using more Co2 again seems counter intuitive when compared to combating other algae. Marilyn, I apologize for doubting the validity of your earlier comments which according to Tom were spot on. At least no or reduced lighting hours will help matters, just as you would combating other algae. I guess I should be grateful I have not run into GW problems yet since I probably would have just made matters worse!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

GW is nothing to be scared of, it's the easiest algae to get rid of and least damaging.

A UV switch is all it takes, UV's have come down in the 25-35$ cheapo range. Most algae cannot be starved vs the polants and if you think this, it's only a temporary effect, algae go sexual when you limit the nutrients, plants just and don't grow, then another species of algae covers the non growing plant.

Limiting algae is a very poor method at control and does not address the real goal in our hobby: growing plants well.

NO3, PO4 etc are not the enemy, poor plant growth and NH4 are, poor CO2 causes most of the algae issues, and the rest tend to be all related to nH4 one way or another.

GW makes a good model alga to work with as it's very tough, easy to induce repeatedly.

Simply take a jobes stick and toss it in a 4w/gal or higher lighted tank and wait about 30 hours and you'll start to get GW.

You may use NH4Cl, (NH4)SO4 etc to play with NH4 as well.
Or use a good amount of fish/shrimp and their associated waste etc.

More light will increase response times.

UV's run about 2-3 days and then you are ready to start again.
Many folks have tried to water change GW out and have failed miserbly and many have resigned themslves to a UV after 6 months of the spouse saying "Gee your pea soup tank looks terrible". :angryfire 

I also never had GW till I started using NH4 based materials, I'd use soil in the past, but not much and was alwayus paranoind about it.

Now I know why I had an issue with soil, it had NH4, so boiling it(or manures etc) or soaking for 3 weeks will oxidize the NH4 into NO2/NO3.
These will not cause algae(well, NO3, I don't really like playing with NO2 and likely will not)

So then you can use soil/manures pretty easily with little chance of GW or other species such as staghorn (Compsopogon) and BBA to a lesser degree.

Regards, 
Tom Barr







Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## xcooperx (Jun 21, 2006)

Hi tom, so you mean that UV doesnt resolve everything meaning GW may come back again?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I do not follow , I did not say UV's do not resolve everything anywhere there........

They do kill off the GW and it nevers comes back generally after use for 2-4 days time.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## obet_07304 (Jul 23, 2006)

This is from my experience. If you dont want to spend too much $$$ buy ALGAEFIX. I swear after a few drops it clears my Green Water w/ in a minute!!! Just follow the instruction carefully. And a warning your fish will be affected w/ the treatment, i almost had an heart attack when i saw almost all of my fishies lying on their sides & appear to be having a hard time breathing:eek5: But after awhile they recovered & started acting normal again. I repeat this is from my own experience all my fishes survived the treatment & i only have to do it ONCE. So this is up to you, I hope you got a stong heart .


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## obet_07304 (Jul 23, 2006)

xcooperx said:


> Okay, i just won the battle on Brown Algae and Green Spot Algae,


Can you share your secret on how you defeated the Green Spot Algae. Thanks.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

obet_07304 said:


> Can you share your secret on how you defeated the Green Spot Algae. Thanks.


Sure, it's called good CO2 and PO4 at 2-3ppm PO4.
We did that years ago.

Why didn't algaefix do that? :icon_mrgr 

"Do not use AlgaeFix with crustaceans, including; crabs, shrimp, freshwater shrimp, and freshwater lobsters."

Know why?

It's not "algaefix", it's copper sulfate, one of theo oldest algicides made.

Generally, 0.4ppm or so will kill algae, and about .7ppm to 1.0ppm will kill plants.

How do I know?
We use the active ingredient to kill aquatic weeds.
It's not too effective for anyone with shrimp, snails or copper sensitive plants, high light and a number of other cases(super soft water etc).

Copper works and has for many years, but few consider it.
Still, UV is less of an issue, 100% in all cases, and they are pretty cheap on line.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## rezi (Aug 26, 2006)

I was just curious if the "wait it out" method was fish safe? Never actually seen a green water bloom before, nor do I have any idea how "thick" the water could become. Just for future reference, because the wait it out remedy sounds solid.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I think it is the safest method of all... you are not adding any questionable chemicals or algaecides, and the process is slower than when you use a UVS and kill them all off in a shorter time.

GW can get so thick that you don't see your fishies anymore, and it is sure taxing your patience.

The easiest way to prevent this in a new tank setup is to seed it with microbial life from established tanks. Used substrate, lots of plants, established filter media help to prevent these initial imbalances. I let my canister filters get really dirty, then squeeze the sponges in tank water, and use the "mud" to seed the substrate for new tanks.

Of course this is difficult if you set up your very first tank...


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## TINNGG (Mar 9, 2005)

Water hyacinths clear it out too. Not sure of the mechanics of that but the pondlet I tossed a couple into went from green water to clear in about the time it took for them to grow new roots (someone had them in a green house - they weren't happy)


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## steve5520 (Jul 3, 2006)

After 2 or 3 weeks of looking at nothing but a tank of thick green water, I guess I lost patience and bought a UV sterilizer. Been running for about 36 hours now, on 150 gallons of water I'm guessing this is going to take several days.

I'm also running a Magnum 250 HOT with the micron filter to remove the particles. I'm considering putting DE in the filter, although Marineland claims the filter cartridge by itself is just as good.

How long after I started the UV until I should do a serious water change? I know that water changes make the green water worse, so I don't want to start earlier than I should.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

If you are running a UV to kill the GW you can do the water change any time you want. It might even speed things up as you reduce the number of GW cells in the water column.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Don't fell bad, most lose the patience to wait out a GW issue, this is tyopuically successful in tanks where they have low intensity lighting, with PC's or a lot of light, forget it.

GW will beat you.

Hyacinths:
See the response about lighting above, less light=> less growth, GW is pretty responsive to high light, it's not a low light alga.

In year's past, few folks ever giot GW, we have a monthly rash these days with all the high intensity light may newbies go out and buy........:icon_roll 

Ugh.
More light is not better.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## alohamonte (Jul 25, 2006)

my first tank was an overstocked Eclipse 6 that occupied some real estate in my dorm room (many moons ago). I changed the filter and fed the fish. No water changes, no live plants. That's about it. It took maybe 3-4 months for the GW to attack. It was pea soup, I couldnt see any of the fish, visibility was maybe 1/2 inch. But, I knew they were in there. So I continued to feed them, change the filter (about once a month)... It was college, and a tank full of green water wasnt even close to the most disgusting thing in the room! HAHAHAHAHA... Well, after maybe 2 months is passed. One day green, the next day crystal clear.


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## steve5520 (Jul 3, 2006)

After looking at green water for so long, it's great to see a crystal clear tank again. Oddly enough, it looks like my plant just "took off" while it was green. Maybe I just lost track of time. :redface: 

How long is it appropriate to run the UV sterilizer after the water clears? I don't intend on leaving it on constantly, I may set it on a timer or something at some point in time. The tank is 150 gallons and it's been running a day short of 2 weeks. It actually cleared in around 6 days.

FWIW, I made the comment in a previous post that Marineland claims the Magnum HOT filter does just as well without DE. I don't think so. I ran it a few days with just the cartridge and then decided to add DE.
HUGE DIFFERENCE! In a few hours, with DE, I could see the water clearing. Filter cycle gets pretty short, but oh well.

Thanks for the help.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

You are right, the micron filter alone isn't very useful for GW. DE is what makes a huge difference, leaving you with truly polished water. It's not for continuous use, just on a as needed basis.


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## caymandiver75 (Sep 5, 2006)

Wow this is one of the most informative threads I've ever read! Now I just have to find a place that sells DE so I can add it to my HOT MAGNUM. Anyone know where I can buy it locally? Do the PETNO's sell the stuff? and how do I add it to the filter?


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