# Cardinals and Redlines and Harlequins, OH MY! *12/06/09 Update*



## billb (May 29, 2009)

Well, this time my wife is really not happy with me, and she has a point. I have spent too much time (and too much money) on the latest addition to my garage. As the title says, I now have 4 Sulawesi shrimp species in my 60 gallon tank.
I found a breeder in Indonesia who was selling both wild caught and tank bred shrimp (Aristocratama.com) They are a wholesaler but agreed to sell to me if I bought a minumum of one box. A bit more than I planned but I ordered the following
50 C. Dennerli - Cardinals. These are the consensus pick for hardiest Sulawesi shrimp. 
50 C striata - Red line - cool looking
50 C. spinnata - yellow cheek. These get to 3mm. pretty big
50 C woltoreckae - Harlequins also called, mistakenly, C spongicola. These are the toughest
Also:
Mini bolbitis
50 Red cherry water plant. This is a macro algae that looks like a plant:
http://www.aristocratama.com/ - go to the plant and moss gallery. 
This plant is seems to be configured to grow periphyton - a complex mix of diatoms algae and organic matter it collcts in its spiny little leaves - and is a really good food source for these shrimp. The exporter said this would be a good way to get them up and healthy ( ...he would say this). I did searching and found one paper discussing Chara sp and there position in the food chain. Seems plausible.
These Shrimp are all tank bred and the exporter kept them at a pH around 7.5 to 8. kH was 7 to 10, but he said that "breeders" would be fine with lower levels of alkalinity. He didn't know his gH. Temp 28 degrees C
His advice - *they need high levels of oxygen*. Water change - no more than 10% at a time. They come from 1 million year old ancient lakes. Stability is a requirement!
*Some pics:*

It took 3 hours to get them with trips to the air cargo place - then customs - then back to air cargo. Shipping, handling, certifications fees, inspection fees - these are expensive. You would need to order alot more to make a business out of this. These fees were 3x the cost of the animals








I had read about "mini bolbitis" and they had some - expensive, but heck, I can't find it here. Well I found out that I got the Costco size! These are two VCR size packages of mini bobiltis. ( no they are not what you are thinking...) I am sure it was grown emersed and will change leaf form soon. 








Here is a pic in my 90 gallon.








*Will absolutely sell some*! ... and will be generous with the portions. PM me if you are interested.
The shrimp came in BIG bags. Each had an Indian Almond leaf for the shrimp to hang on to and to impart some beneficial/protective chemicals or so I have heard. The leaves did probably drop the pH along with shrimp waste and CO2. The water in the bags had the following parameters:
Temp 78 - an advantage of big bags and I got them in less than 24 hours!
kH 7
gH 15
pH 7.02! This was the biggest issue. I slowly added tank water over 3 hours to get them used to the higher pH again. These guys do not like big shifts in H2O chemistry.

*Getting acclimated*. You can see a Red Cherry water plant on the lower right. On the lower left - Eleocharis sp "belem" - thanks Todd ( a fellow SCAPE club member)! There are Eleo species in the Malili lakes.









A blurry but bigger pic of Rec Cherry Water plant (RCWP from now on)








After 3 hours, I floated them in breeder tanks over night to see how they would fare. In shipping, I lost two cardinals, 3 yellow cheeks, 5 harlequins at least, and zero Red lines! I lost more yellow cheeks and harlequins over night. Worried about these guys.








The hodge-podge scape - I added even more RCWP after this shot. Function over form in this tank.









Speaking of function - a cheap Petco power head with venturi. more flow and oxygen. Take this for what it is worth - 1 data point. When I was adding my yellow cheeks to the tank I removed three dead shrimp and saw two others that were clearly about to expire - on their sides but they moved/flicked when I went to remove them. I decided to put their net breeder directly in the flow. Check out the mist coming from the left side. This revived them! I wish I had put air stone in the bags right when I opened them maybe I could have saved more Harlequins








This picture says two things - I can't ever focus my camera, and I really think these RCWPs are cool. If any one wants some I may sell 10. 40 should feed the flock. If you have Sulawesis you should try them. PM me.








The Red Lines








Not hard to see why they have the name - again a blurry picture








The Yellow Cheek - a berried female hanging out in the RCWP








Two berried Harlequins! - there were many more berried harlequins than any other type - I hope some shrimplets make it to replenish the stock!








The cardinals in the breeder box - lot's of shrimp poo on the bottom! These guys were definitely the most active and relaxed of the 4 types.








Some group shots
























I have been searching far and wide to find info on how the keep and breed these shrimp. It's tough. There are people who have had success but beyond water parameters, they give out little info. A couple people are trying to provide more complete histories and this will help everyone. I will try to document what I am doing and my thoughts behind why I am doing it. I will probably struggle but I won't hide that either. Failure teaches important lessons too!
Bill


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## HOLLYWOOD (May 12, 2007)

Super super nice purchase! Congrats!


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## aposterprises (Sep 19, 2009)

Those shrimp are beautiful!!! I hope that you have lots of luck with the breeding.


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## rasbora (Sep 1, 2006)

Thanks for the explanations. It was interesting to see how the two in the breeder were revived by the oxygen infusion.


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## Tex Gal (Mar 28, 2008)

Very amazing! Wish I could see this in person! I wish you much success!


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## jman (Sep 7, 2009)

The shrimp look awesome. Does that macroalgae stuff grow in freshwater?


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

jman said:


> The shrimp look awesome. Does that macroalgae stuff grow in freshwater?


 Yup. The lakes have sponges too. 
Bill


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## aposterprises (Sep 19, 2009)

That shop has the most amazing assortment of inverts I've ever seen in one place.


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## NJAquaBarren (Sep 16, 2009)

Very cool Billb. Wish you lots of luck. Can't wait to hear more.

AB


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## aelysa (Oct 20, 2006)

Wooo, keep us posted on how they do!


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## lopez_316us (Jan 25, 2008)

Awesome! Can u tell me how much did u pay?

Good luck!


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## legomaniac89 (Mar 16, 2008)

Haha I saw the title of the thread and I thought it meant "Cardinal Tetras and Redline Rasboras and Harlequin Rasboras", and I thought "why in the world is this in the shrimp subforum?". Now I see . This is awesome! There aren't too many people in the states that breed and raise Sulawesi Shrimp. I'll be following this one for sure. Good luck!


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## vca2004 (Sep 7, 2009)

WOW :eek5:! Fantastic description and great that the few dying ones recovered in the oxygen jet! Please keep us updated roud:.


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## vca2004 (Sep 7, 2009)

So you didn't have any problems whatsoever with customs or how did that work?


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## Rob in Puyallup (Jul 2, 2009)

Billb...

I, for one, will be looking forward to seeing your "for sale" ads!!!


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## Rob in Puyallup (Jul 2, 2009)

Aristo... has some great looking gobies, too!


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## Solid (Jul 19, 2009)

Wow, very cool! Amazing looking shrimp! Will these shrimp cross-breed?


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## dxiong5 (Sep 28, 2008)

Very nice! This Sulawesi project is going well for you


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

that macro algae is fantastic. I wonder why we don't see it more.


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## husonfirst (Sep 12, 2009)

Very nice looking shrimp!


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## mgamer20o0 (Mar 8, 2007)

mistergreen said:


> that macro algae is fantastic. I wonder why we don't see it more.


there is a lot of stuff that we dont see in the state from plants to fish. they send it to countries where they pay more.


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## vca2004 (Sep 7, 2009)

mgamer20o0 said:


> there is a lot of stuff that we dont see in the state from plants to fish. they send it to countries where they pay more.


That's not true . I am German and Sulawesi shrimp cost about as much as they cost here, maybe a little less as a lot of people are already breeding them in their tanks. It's definitely not the price. I think just many more people are interested in freshwater "pet" shrimp over there. Therefore more people are interested in importing them just like Bill did, and new shrimp will spread through the hobby faster.


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## lopez_316us (Jan 25, 2008)

How is everything going?


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

*Update - 10/27*

Thanks everyone for the well wishes - Legomaniac, I am still a member of the "haven't bred Sulawesi's yet" club. Buying does not = breeding, but i am hopeful!..
Vanessa - I got lucky with customs. Things that may have helped - showing up in person, having the indonesian health and inspection documents and all other documents. thsi was the first time I imported and it was meant for personal use. They took me drivers license to check! It could have not gone well and I could have lost my money.

Lopez316us. I got the cheap shrimp and the exporter wanted a minumum order of one box. depending on what you buy assume it will cost you about $800+

Well so far so good! I have only lost one other shrimp since the first night - another yellow cheek. Worried about these guys.
So here is what is going on with the tank:
*Lighting *- I put in some AH Supply reflectors on the old light fixture and two new 6700k PC bulbs, also from AH supply. Photo period is 12 hours but might increase that. Not having to many algae issue so far and I want a healthy layer of biofilm.
*Filtration* - way more than needed for my bioload but I think it will help keep things stable - 40 sq ft of 50 micron pleated cartridge, 7 lbs of polybead biofiltration and about 400mls of Purigen mixed with a similar amount of crushed shell chips to maintain the pH level
*Water parameters *- 
Temp 80
pH 7.9 to 8
kH 5
gH 9
*water changes* - 5 gallons at least three times per week(about 10%of tank volume/change). I use RO water stored for 1 to 2 days with crushed coral sand. A power head keeps water circulating








*Food *- OK here is where I have been spending sleepless nights. I think that one of the reasons these shrimp are so hard to keep alive is that they have probably evolved to exploit specific niches in these ancient lakes. I could be completely wrong but there are a lot of shrimp species occupying the same habitats. Also, my shrimp do not seem to like Shirakura shrimp food or Hikari Algae wafers. I spoke to another person who has cardinals and he observed the same thing.
They do scavenge for biofilm though. I am taking a two pronged approach, 
*Natural biofilm* - I am hoping to culture the organisms resident on the wild collected Red Cherry Water plants. These came from the same lakes as the shrimp so they might be carrying a good mix of algae/diatoms/rotifers/bacteria from the Malili lake system. I took a number of these plants the night I got the shipment and put them in a tray along with the water from the bags the shrimp came in. I also included some small stones and some of the indian almond leaves that shipped with the shrimp. To this, I added Kent Marine's Pro-Culture Phytoplankton media ( you need type A and type B) along with Sodium meta silicate which is recommended to grow diatoms.








Those are ten pound bottles, enough to make 7,800 gallons. I think that will do for a while. These were purchased at Aquatic Eco-Systems.com
I am trying to keep the trays lit 24 hours a day and take them out into the sun when time and weather permit. Interestingly, I do not have any visible algae in the trays - go figure.
*Artificial Biofilm* - The tank is pretty big with a 48" by 15" foot print. The rocks, wood, and plants add additional surface area for biofilm to grow but I worry about feeding the 160 or so shrimp in this nutrient poor environment. There are quite a few high quality marine filter feeder foods that have concentrated, intact, phytoplankton and zooplankton. I also noticed that the Aquaculturists use the same species to feed their fish and invertabrates so I suspect these are nutritionally sound. The particle sizes are the same as what the shrimp are designed to feed on. The only problem is the commercial formulas are designed to circulate in the water column so the filter feeders can access them. I needed something that would stick to a surface.
Here is my current solution:
*Kent Marines PhytoMax* - a viscous liquid with three or 4 cultured phtoplankton species. a good source of highly unsaturated fatty acids (HUFA) such as Omega 3
*Two Little Fishes Marine Snow* - another viscous liquid with a mix of pyto and zooplankton along with seaweed meal. 
*Argent Cyclop-Eeze* - freeze dried whole cyclops - very small and also touted as being nutritionally dense.

I found that drops of these liquid foods could be put onto flat stones and dried. The resulting plankton spots would remain in place long enough for the shrimp to find them - especially the Cardinals and Harlequins.








Tonight - 2 minutes after adding a small feeding rock








Friends smell something cooking...








I am going to keep playing with this but it looks promising. I will need to treat several small rocks and put them near the shrimp hang outs. They don't seem to wander very far after they have picked out a territory.

*Some pics:*
There is a Chocolate Poso snail eating this schefflera leaf. It is in the upper middle of the leaf (actually behind it) The blurry white thing is it. They are going to town on that leaf though. I have three Chocolate Posos and two Yellow Rabbits








A cardinal hang out with a red-line groupie. The Red Cherry water plants look like they are getting some new growth.








A red-line hang out with a cardinal groupie








No one is hanging out with the yellow cheek - it's too big








The harlequin is by himself - they rest are night owls








Last picture. The red-lines seem to have shorter, stouter front limbs than the other shrimp. A feeding adaptation? This one was pulling things from the moss, not scraping. I haven't seen that before.








Well I am definitely having fun with these guys. I'll keep posting and answer any questions I can. 
Thanks for looking,
Bill


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## catfishbi (Jun 10, 2008)

wondering if you willing to sell some or help us order some put up a group buy list


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

catfishbi said:


> wondering if you willing to sell some or help us order some put up a group buy list


 Not sure I am ready to take on a group buy, sorry. If I am successful breeding these I will offer some for sale. There have been several recent posts offering them for sale though, keep an eye on out.

Bill


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## dxiong5 (Sep 28, 2008)

Great update Bill! Your approach to culturing biofilm is some serious work, sounds like everything is working out well for you.

PS. The Red Cherry plants came in today, they look very nice! Hopefully they'll be a good source for biofilm to cultivate on and draw my shrimp out from hiding.


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## Tex Gal (Mar 28, 2008)

I am so in love with the RCWP. It's one of the coolest plants I've seen. I sure hope they do well. I'm excited about your adventure. Loving this entire thread. I'll live vicariously through you if you don't mind!


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## lopez_316us (Jan 25, 2008)

Tex Gal said:


> I am so in love with the RCWP. It's one of the coolest plants I've seen. I sure hope they do well. I'm excited about your adventure. Loving this entire thread. I'll live vicariously through you if you don't mind!



Me too!! 

This is great! 

Good luck with everything !!!


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## lopez_316us (Jan 25, 2008)

Keep posting pictures please!!!

What about a full tank pic???

Thanks!


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

Don, Drinda, I am glad your plants arrived in good condition. Don it looks nice in your tank! I have a couple plants with the orange red "tips" that gave the plant it's name - they look cool. 

Lopez316us - I am the worst photographer. I take 10 pic to get one decent one. I will try to get a whole tank shot tonight.

Here are a couple pics from last night:
my 10 gallon CRS tank - just got shrimplets!









A pic from the back side of the Sulawesi tank









Red-lines are really striking









Thanks

Bill


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

lopez_316us said:


> Keep posting pictures please!!!
> 
> What about a full tank pic???


As promised....
A couple of tank pics









*Right side*









*Left side*









*Middle*









*From the left*









The exporter said that you will see cardinals in the "*red" form* and the *"blue" form* - blue looks more like maroon. They believed that the shrimp will change color based on temperature. My tank is at 80 degrees. I will have to see if they do change.









*Closer view of the "red" form*









*Yellow cheeks also show two color forms*









*Last one* - took this shot through my magnifying glass! ( I have 10 other blurry shots because I couldn't keep from moving)








Thanks
Bill


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## Mustang Boy (Aug 11, 2009)

wow i am amazed this is an incredible thread and those are some beautiful shrimp but WAY above my expertise so i will ask some questions about the cool looking plant because it looks like it may be within my expertise lol


ok do you know any of the care needs for it like lighting? co2? ferts?
how large do they get? how do you plant them i see you have them both on rocks and in teh substrate
are there any specific water parameters required for it to thrive?
would the biofilm that collects on it be beneficial to some of the more common shrimp species in the hobby like amano, cherries, crs, etc.?
would the plant being an algae be at risk of being eaten by the more common algae eating species like amano?
would it be in danger of snail species that are usually plant safe since this is a macroalgae and not a normal plant?

im sorry about all of the questions but i am highly fascinated by this plant and the possiblilities it could bring to the shrimp keeping community


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

Mustang Boy said:


> wow i am amazed this is an incredible thread and those are some beautiful shrimp but WAY above my expertise so i will ask some questions about the cool looking plant because it looks like it may be within my expertise lol


*ok do you know any of the care needs for it like lighting? co2? ferts?*
The only info i got came from a Singapore forum, A hobbyist there keeps it in two tanks - one with CO2 and one with out - both had high light, My tank has no CO2 and 2 watts per gallon lighting. I also do not fertilize my tank but they will get some fertilizer when they cycle through my biofilm culture trays My guess is it will prove to be pretty hardy.

*how large do they get? how do you plant them i see you have them both on rocks and in teh substrate*
I think these are mature plants. They may get biggerin a CO2 tank with ferts though - just speculation. I had a few extras and sold them to a couple people. I think we will get more info over the next few months. The plant attaches to a substrte usings hold fast - rhizoids. These are not true roots and do not provide nutrients, I have seen some of the plants attached to a few gravel grains. Most of my plants just sank to the bottom and that is where they stay. I have tied a couple to stones and I have put a few into holes in the fossilized coral.

*are there any specific water parameters required for it to thrive?*
They come from lakes with high pH and pretty soft water. I can only guess on how they would do in other conditions. Acidic conditions may not work out

*would the biofilm that collects on it be beneficial to some of the more common shrimp species in the hobby like amano, cherries, crs, etc.?*
*would the plant being an algae be at risk of being eaten by the more common algae eating species like amano?*
I have Amano and CRS in my 90 gallon. They did forage on the plants but did not eat them. I think they function as a pretty high surface area substrate for biofilm but do not produce a special kind. I did try to see if there were any native diatoms and algae on these wild collected plants, but I would guess that ultimately they will be colonized by whatever is growing in your tank. The exporter was the person who told me that Red Cherry Water Plant was "food" for these shrimp (Sulawesi). I searched for Chara sp on the web and found that they are important as habitat/ grazing grounds for small invertabrates.

*would it be in danger of snail species that are usually plant safe since this is a macroalgae and not a normal plant?*
I can say that,pond snails, MTS, nerites, and two types of Tylo snails (native to the same Sulawesi lakes) have not eaten them.
*(***Note*** - five miniutes after I posted this, I got an email from one of the people who got the plant and they said their TYLO snails went after the plant! not sure which kind and not sure why mine do not seem to eat them (yet?) )* 

*im sorry about all of the questions but i am highly fascinated by this plant and the possiblilities it could bring to the shrimp keeping community*.
No problem! You are in Florida. take a look at this thread I posted recently. the plant, Chara rusbyana may be found in your neck of the woods and could be a cool plant to try. If you are successful, I would be willing to trade a couple for some Red Cherry Water plants.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/plants/95542-chara-rusbyana-bonito-brazil.html

Bill


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## dxiong5 (Sep 28, 2008)

My Chocolate Poso checked out the plant, but did not actually eat it; it just grazed over it.


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## Mustang Boy (Aug 11, 2009)

thanks for answering my many many questions. i dont make it out to the springs very often(havnt been in like 5-6yrs lol) but ill try to make it a point to get out to some of them and keep my eye out for that chara sp. because it does look pretty cool and would look great in a tank and i would be more than interested in trading a good bundle of it to you for a couple of those really cool looking plants.

and seeing the replies to your other thread got me thinking... hhmmm macroalgae planted tank with nothing but macroalgae in it :icon_idea


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## dxiong5 (Sep 28, 2008)

Mustang Boy said:


> and seeing the replies to your other thread got me thinking... hhmmm macroalgae planted tank with nothing but macroalgae in it :icon_idea


Here's one: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/planted-nano-tanks/73778-pics-my-macro-nano.html


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## Mustang Boy (Aug 11, 2009)

i remember seeing that thread and that is really cool and it is definitely different to the planted tank world being a saltwater tank but i was talking more on the freshwater side cause macroalgae isnt as common as it is in the ocean


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## datta_sid (Oct 22, 2009)

Have you seen any mysterious shrimp deaths ( specially yellowcheeks ) ?


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

datta_sid said:


> Have you seen any mysterious shrimp deaths ( specially yellowcheeks ) ?


 I am trying to decide if you are psychic or a jinx! I found 3 dead red-lines this morning. I did a 10% water change and will buy new test kits tonight to check my water parameters after I make new stds. I need to check these and keep a log so when soemthing like this happens - i can try to figure out what happened? Wierd that deaths seem to be species specific, might be chance but I need to rule out Human error...
Bill


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## datta_sid (Oct 22, 2009)

billb said:


> I am trying to decide if you are psychic or a jinx! I found 3 dead red-lines this morning.
> Bill


OMG I am so sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!

I lost 1 cardinal on my second day, I havent found any more cardinal bodies yet. (touch wood ). I never counted their full strength either.

I keep losing yellowcheeks. They are down to almost 3 from 12.

I am not sure what causes this, my tests say my water is pristine .


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

I am sorry to here about your yellow cheeks. I found this post discussing Sulawesi disease - specifically with yellow cheeks. It does say that other species can get this too. The post is from Oct 24. I hope they post a follow up so we can see if the treatment they use was helpfull

http://www.blue-tiger-shrimp.com/blog/tag/sulawesi-shrimps/

There is some good news, I have cardinal shrimplets! These are from the stock of shrimp i got locally here in SoCal. Several berried Cardinals currently too. Will try to get pictures.

Bill


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## datta_sid (Oct 22, 2009)

I have one cardinal carrying a couple eggs. Now its up to powers greater than me!


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## dhavoc (May 4, 2006)

Billb, i would slow down on the water changes, they stress the shrimp more than its worth if your water is already pristine. do test though to be sure. continued loses for weeks after are common with these shrimps, especially wild caught ones. they just dont ship well. same comment from others i have spoken to who have imported them as well. those that do survive though are tough especially cardinals. 

i have dumped many a dollar down the drain on these guys (thousands, good thing my wife is understanding), and had pretty much given up on them. i moved my last few cardinals from a tank specifically setup for them but they didnt like (lost 40+ cardinals over a couple of weeks) into a bare tank i was cycling for no specific species. i just added some crushed coral to the HOB filters and put a couple of heaters in there to warm it up. fully expected them to all die, and even started using the tank to hatch my CPO's. low and behold, 2 months later, they are still alive and i have now found 2 batches of shrimplets (vastly different sizes so assume different batches) and the original 4 are still alive and happy. they bred in this tank as none of them were berried when i moved them originally. this was even with all the cpo's running around in there. of course i removed the remaining cpo's as soon as i saw the shrimplets, and the adults and fry now come out sort of (they stay by their hiding places but come out a little to feed). whats the old saying? a watched pot never boils? good luck with yours.


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## Tex Gal (Mar 28, 2008)

I'm sorry you continue to have some losses. It hasn't been that long though. It does sound like, over all you're being quite successful so far. 

I love the look of your tank. It looks similar in feel to what I have set up. So far so good with the RCWP. My CRS shrimp continue to clean it. The tank has mineralized soil with CO2, no ferts added. Everything seems to be doing well in there.

I love reading about your adventures. Gald you're sharing with us!


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

Hey Darrin, Thanks! I am open to advice, especially from folks with hands on experience! There is a lot to learn with these guys and I will post more on this over the week end. The water checks out - I made the calibration solutions and the new kits check out. I am working with something near 2ppm Nitrates. 

I love these shrimp - they are really cool. Mine all come out in the evening around 7pm or so. My lights go off at 8:30 so I can spend time checking them out. If the room is dark, they don't get spooked. the species definitely have different behaviours, adaptations, and preferences. i am definitely going to keep a log and try to capture my observations in pictures when ever possible!

Drinda, I am glad to hear your plants are doing well. I can now confirm that the tylo snails will take a few bites of the Red Cherry Water Plants. I'm going to have to keep them fed so they don't eat through all my plants! Good thing they eat almost everything I put in front of them.

I have some interesting growth on a couple of the RCWPs - not sure what they are but I will try to take some pictures. 

Bill


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## lopez_316us (Jan 25, 2008)

WOW!!! 

Great pictures!!! Thanks man. Your tanks look really good:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Subscribe!!


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## dxiong5 (Sep 28, 2008)

Well, some of my RCWPs have started to disappear. Not sure if it's from the snails or poor water for the plants. Update on yours Bill?


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

Hi Don. I can confirm that Tylo's eat them. I am trying to keep them fat and happy but may have to put them in a separate tank. I want the plants for the shrimp. The plants in the Sulawesi tank - no CO2 and water parameters listed below - are doing pretty good. I have two in my High tech tank with hard water and pH of 6.9. Good Co2 and 3 wpg metal halide - are not doing as well but they aren't disappearing yet. here is a picture from my Sulawesi tank








I also have two aeration zones that are supplying O2 to the shrimp but maybe the flow and stable but low CO2 is helping. You can see them in the whole tank shot in a recent post

*Water parameters* 
*Temp is 79 degrees*
*kH 5*
*gH 9*
*NO3 less than 5ppm - calibrated with home made standards per Tom Barr instructions*
I am still losing a shrimp about every other day - Harlequins or Redlines. I can't help wondering if it is diet related. There are several shrimp hide outs and the dead shrimp seem to be located mostly behind the big fossilized coral (if that's what it is). Definitely hard to know. I am tempted to see if anyone at Birch Aquarium here in SD would be willing to do an autopsy. They might be able to determine if I'm fighting disease, water quality, or empty stomachs.
They might also be able to make suggestions. Hey it would at least get me to go to the aquarium!
I do see shrimp graze on my "feeding" stones but as I said before, they seem to hang around their own turf. I may need to rotate the stones around the tank.
So, on to some good news! I have not had a yellow cheek die recently - knock on wood. Lot's of speculation on a Sulawesi disease that impacts Yellow Cheeks. Maybe the rest are clean. The UV system is running full time just in case. Speaking of Yellow Cheeks, I have a gigantic one. It must be 4 centimeters, but it has been very shy and difficult to get a good look at. Just a murky shadow under the stone ledge. Well tonight it was out, and it is a berried female! Keep your fingers crossed!. I 
I tried to take a picture - and did a terrible job. You will have to take my word for it. *Here is the best pic I managed to take*








The Cardinals are doing great. These guys are comfortable in the tank and generally the most visible shrimp, especially during the middle of the day. I have several berried females and am looking forward to seeing shrimplets. I believe I have 3 to 5 young ones from my original shrimp. Here are a few pictures ( the berried females have an uncanny ability to detect cameras).
*My best crack at showing a berried female*








*A Pack-O-Cardinals plus one large harlequin and one small Red line*








*The shrimp definitely seem to prefer hanging out under ledges - more than the holes in the fossilized coral. I would certainly suggest incorporating such a ledge if any one plans to set up a tank for these guys*








*I like this shot! Look at the antenna on this guy. They have these long graceful white antennas and this pic shows one flowing in an arc. Might need to expand the photo*








*The plants seem to be doing well. One of them has these thin, dark green stems growing out of it. Not sure if this is a normal or if there is another plant - hitch hiker that is springing up. It is hard to see, but it is growing up from the plant in the center of the picture, against the rock.*








Bill


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## Mustang Boy (Aug 11, 2009)

wow the tank is looking great i wish i had the money and expertise to take care of them

i am definitely going to have to make it out to one of the natural springs around here to see if i can find any of that macro-algae you are looking for and i might just grab some for myself too maybe setup a shrimp tank with only macro-algae now that would be cool and it would definitely give the shrimp plenty to graze off of


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## justin182 (Aug 19, 2009)

amazing!
i just want to wish you good luck!


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

Hi Mustangboy - thanks and I think your idea of a macro algae tank is cool - it would be unique.

Justin182, thank you. I checked out your thread and you are making great progress on your tank. Nice drift wood!

Well things seem to be pretty stable right now but I found a yellow cheek with a brown patch on its back similar to what is shown on posts about sulawesi disease. I removed and isloated the shrimp and did lose it. No others with these symptoms right now. In searching for more info, I saw a post by msjinkzd (if i recall correctly) to a German site focused on diseases of invertabrates. The Germans are way ahead of us! This link is for the Google translated version of the page. If you have shrimp or crayfish - check it out
http://translate.google.com/transla...&prev=/search?q=crusta+krankheiten&hl=en&sa=G

Bill


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## vca2004 (Sep 7, 2009)

Bill, they have a medication list for shrimp here: Again it's all in German, but maybe you can use it somehow. I know it might be useless like this, but I don't have the time to translate right now.
http://www.garnelenforum.de/board/Heilmittel.xls


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

Thanks Vanessa, I am going to be conservative until I can determine if I am fighting disease or not. There is the Scripps institute of oceanography here in San Diego. I have frozen some of the freshly dead shrimp and will see if some one will look at them to see what has killed them. In the mean time, this brings me to .... (thanks for the lead in Vanessa!)...


_*Human error*_ - this is the last thing I needed. These shrimp do not allow you to make mistakes, and I did.
My flow had dropped and I knew that my Purigen/crushed shell filter had been packed pretty tight. So Friday evening, I got a new,larger mesh bag and filled it with new Purigen and crushed shells and rinsed them in RO water. I then replaced the two small bags that were currently in the filter with the new, larger bag. Well, I did not rinse this well enough and when I turned the filter on, my pH dropped from 8.0 to 7.5 - the new Purigen must contain a buffer. My shrimp were swimming - a very bad sign with Sulawesis. The only ones that did not seem agitated were the C. woltereckaes, the harlequins! In about 20 minutes, I lost 5 shrimp - two redlines, two cardinals( my first losses but one was berried) and one yellow cheek. I changed 10% of the water when I noticed the pH drop and the stress. Every one settled down and I think the Harlequins were down right happy. Several were sparring for territories. 
These were tough losses!
I did lose one more redline Friday night, but nothing last night.
*A couple new things:*
*I found a prepared food that all of the Shrimp go for!* Ocean Nutrition Shrimp Wafers








These are definitely shrimp sized as shown on the bottle. I can put them on the large flat rock about an hour before lights out and the shrimp will stumble into them ( these guys are not blood hounds like my CRS) The redlines and harlequins both eat them and ignore any other prepared foods I have tried. So now I have several things I can rotate in to feed them - the cutlured biofilm, the dried Phytomax - both on feeding rocks - and the Ocean Nutrition wafers.
*I have a stow away!*
There is a very young brown shrimp in my tank. It must have been in one of the bags with the other shrimp. It would have been a tiny thing back then! This shrimp looks like a Malawa and is very active. It swims all over the tank and likes the current from my filter. I will try to get a picture
*Yellow cheeks are night owls!* 
I have been losing these guys more than any others and I have wondered how many I have. I may see one or two during the day but after dark, they come out of hiding. I counted 11 shrimp tonight, incuding the giant berried female. Definitely keeping my fingers crossed.
*I got a TDS probe!*
I have been using RO water that circulates in a bucket with coral sand - I knew that this has gotten my pH, kH, and gH were I wanted them but was curious about my TDS. Reports I have read suggest that the lakes are soft
Matano had a TDS of 227 and Towuti had 180 or so. Good news, my water is 205. In contrast, my 90 gallon which uses San Diego Tap water in north of 450 ( but my C grade CRS are breeding well) I do wonder if I am missing traces though. Need to do my homework here.
I hope this is helping folks interested in these shrimp. My cardinals seem to be really happy and relatively hardy. There are at least 4 berried females at the moment and i am hoping that they will produce viable offspring. I would recommend you start with cardinals - hopefully tank raised.
The big yellow cheek is hanging in there too. It would be great to get some of these guys reproducing. No berried Harlequins or redlines however. My hope is that I won't repeat my Purigen mistake and that the remaining shrimp are settled in. Time will tell
Bill


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

SICK shrimp


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## vca2004 (Sep 7, 2009)

I am keeping my fingers crossed for you too, Bill! So how many of each species should you have left now? I know counting them is impossible, but from how many you bought and how many you lost so far...

I have read reports about captive bred harlequins and yellow cheeks at www.garnelenforum.de, so they do breed in captivity. It's just a matter of time and patience (the later I usually don't have)...


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## Rob in Puyallup (Jul 2, 2009)

Hey Bill...

Find the news about your shrimp very interesting!

Wondering how you culture biofilm...


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## dxiong5 (Sep 28, 2008)

My RCWPs are no more. Bill, if yours every propagate, I will be in contact!


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

Thanks *speedie408* - they are really cool. i am fortunate to have them.

*Vanessa* - It is hard to tell, I may have to see if I can count them tonight. My best guess:
50 cardinals
25 redlines
10 to 20 yellow cheeks
10 harlequins.

*Rob in Puyallup* - I bought the two part phytoplankton aquaculture media from Kent Marine. I also bought the sodium metasilicate that they recommended to culture diatoms (details and source listed in an earlier post). I use the term biofilm but really I have been trying to accelerate the growth of surface diatoms and algae. As the Red Cherry water plants were collected from the wild in the Malili lakes where the shrimp come from, I used them to seed the cultures. Currently I am putting small flat stones, red cherry water plants, and dried leaves in the culture trays. These are then put into the tank after a few days. Not sure how well it works but I do see shrimp on these grazing. My guess is that this contributes to the available food sources. I also have a healthy population of pond snails competing for biofilm - and they ALWAYS find the stones or leaves first - so I hope this helps

*Don* - sorry to hear that. They are tough. The two plants in my 90 gallon are looking pretty sparse. The plants in the Sulawesi tank are not thriving either, the new growth has thinner arms and smaller leaves, The orange tips are gone too. A couple of them seem to be sending out a different type of growth. i tried to take a picture of this in an earlier post. The best plant I have has been in the aquaculture media the whole time. The temps are probably too low so no big growth but it still has the thick leaves. I will keep trying.

Bill


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## aquarius45 (Nov 10, 2009)

Hi billb,
I'm a hobbyist in the UK and I'm hopefully going get a cardinal shrimp tank running!
I've been looking everywhere on the internet for that Red Cherry Water Plant but no luck 

Do you know about any other places I could get it? Or if it's ok with you, could you sell me some?

I know it's a lot to ask! Cheers a bunch - Will.


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

Hi Will,

You will enjoy your cardinals - they are beautiful and active with very different behaviour than my CRS. The white front claws are very visible and in constant motion when feeding - fun to watch. My best advice would be to find some captive bred shrimp and keep your water clean and stable. Probably enough advice from soemone with only 2 or so months of experience with them!

I do not have any good suggestions on where to buy the Red Cherry water plants. I ended up importing them from Indonesia and they have proved challenging to keep. I don't have any extras and the ones I do have really are not thriving. I have decided that they are certainly not a critical factor to keeping these shrimp how ever. Really they are just a good surface for growing biofilm - and so are dead leaves, stones...etc.

Please post your results and observations so the rest of us can benefit.

Bill


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

*pH Cycle - Frankenfilter - Hideouts*

Well I am trying to keep this journal as close to an unvarnished account as possible, and this means detailing the losses. Don't let this sour you on these guys -at least the Cardinals. There have been many posts about the challenges and for species like Harlequins, I have yet to read an account of a long term success. I hope this is just a matter of time. Supposedly the exporter I got these from is raisng them (they are sold as tank bred). 

*So some updates:*
*Water parameters*
*Temp - 80 degrees*
*gH - 9 *
*kH - 6*
*Nitrate - less than 2.5* ( the lowest point on my kit. LaMotte has a kit that goes from 0.25 to 10ppm but do I need to know exactly? I did go through the trouble to make stds though so I feel good about saying less than 2.5ppm)
*Nitrite - 0*
*Ammonia - 0*
*TDS - 218*
*pH - 8.02 *(at 7pm on monday the 9th) - and this will be the topic of my next observation.
*My pH has a regular 24 hour cycle!*
I have a pH probe in the tank monitoring the pH. I usually just check this out in the evenings to make sure things are stable. Well, after the Purigen episode I have been looking more often and noticed it varied in the morning. This probe is attached to my AquaController and all of the data is logged and can be reviewed in a graphical form. here is what I see:








The graph starts at one minute after midnight and goes to midnight on the 9th - 24 hours. What you see - and this pattern repeats every day - is that the pH declines after the lights goe out and then rise when they are on. This is what you would expect in a situation where you have plants photosynthesizing and pulling dissolved CO2. I was suprised at the magnitude of the shift in a non-CO2 tank at this pH. That said, the water is pretty soft and the dissolved solids are predominantly from CaCO3. I also have had strong aeration in the tank so I think I am getting a fair amount of CO2 into the tank. My hypothesis is that in this reasonably soft water, I am seeing the plants pulling out CO2 during the course of the day faster than my ceramic diffuser is putting it in using just atmospheric air. At night, we see a slow build up of CO2 and the pH rises
So, Is this the right explanation? Is this big of a pH shift unhealthy for the shrimp? Everyone agrees that they need good aeration and I want to drive biofilm growth. So what to do. Do I do anything?
Well I wanted to get the powerhead out of the tank and I had built in some extra ports on the manifold so I set to work and now have....*FRANKENFILTER!* OK sorry, the name popped into my head and I could not help myself.
Basically I hooked up a needlewheel pump, the Pacific Coast GenX 4100. This is pressure rated to 9 ft and has a flow rate of about 1000pgh at zero head. The intake plumbing is all 1 inch PVC to just before the pump where i added a union, a ball valve then reduced this to a 3/4 inch tee containing a 1/2 inch brass adapter with an airline barb. This Tee then connects to a short length if 1" pipe again which connects to the pump. The 3/4" tee restriction going back to the 1" pipe was to help create a venturi effect. That said, I do have the line hooked to an airpump. The venturi was not strong enough to pull through the brass check valve with a 1psi cracking pressure. The air pump feeds through a cheap needle valve cranked way down as I only need a small amout of air to get a mist going.
*The new addition to Frankenfilter:*








*The $18 GE cartridge filter from HomeDepot.* 








This is a nice buy - the red button on the top allows air to escape when priming the pump - useful. I have a refillable carbon cartridge that I modifed - you need to take out the filter material on the top and bottom to accomodate the higher flow rates. A 5 inch by 12 inch mesh filter media bag is a perfect fit and I used a 50/50 mix of activated carbon and crushed shells in the filter. This serves two purposes 
- I want to increase the pH and buffering to keep things closer to pH 7.8 to 8.0
- I did not want to introduce 700gph of flow into the tank ( the estimated flow at 3 ft of head) the filter cuts the flow to a manageable level and I am happy that I am getting gentle water movement through out the tank.
*Some speculation* - (hey I am trying to see what might be working. We'll see)
I have on two occassions revived shrimp that were clearly on there way out. In neither case was I able to save them (both yellow cheeks) but they stayed alive for and additional 2 and 3 days respectively. This was done by putting them into a mesh/net breeder and putting this breeder directly into the flow of bubbles coming from the power head. This netting knocked back the turbulent flow and created an environment with saturated O2. I recently read a piece about the commercial shrimp aquaculture industry that discusses bacterial infections impacting the gills of white shrimp. This causes hypoxia in the shrimp and eventually death. I may have been treating shrimp with a similar situation and overcame their hypoxia, but did not solve the underlying issue. The commercial aquaculture site suggested introducing agents that spurr molting, This evidently is able to relieve/reduce the bacterial infection and the srimp farmers can then "treat" the water column to remove the cause. Not sure how they do the treating, but I have my UV on all the time. I am also happy to have a mist going into the tank with good flow to distribute it.
*Some pics*








*Out gassing on my plants*
*Hornwort*








*Tiawan moss*








So - has this helped the pH shift? It seems that it may have. My cycle over the last two days has been high of 7.9 and lows of 7.7. I will keep checking the log to see how it does
And best of all - no shrimp deaths since Sunday! ( I hate saying it as I can't help feel superstitious) Sad that this should seem like a mile stone.
*As this is already too long - here are a couple more pics*
*The hang outs.* almost all the shrimp are concentrated in three places
*Under the big rocks - Hang Out 1 and Hang Out 2*








*The Cave!* - Hang Out 3. the Yellow Cheeks spend the day here - you can see the big female in this pic taken looking down into the tank - she is the brown smudge in the middle








Well lunch is over - better get back to work!
Bill


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

It seems odd to me that if O2 were a big issue for the shrimp that they would be down at the bottom of the tank in caves...?

I think it's amazing all the info you're sharing on these to die for shrimp, though- thanks for that!!

And what a nice tank setup!


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

Hi Laura Lee

They come from warm water lakes - not what you picture when you think high O2 demand. This was a warning I got from the exporter and then read in several other forums - so why risk it!

As to the yellow cheeks prefered hide out - the ones in their are presumably healthy, My theory is that the ones I tried to treat may have had bacterial infections affecting their gills - both of them were found out of the caves. The article by Great Lakes biotechnologies discussing this problem made me wonder if that was what I was seeing. I wish I knew. As you said - i am trying to show everything I do and everything that happens. No doubt there are people who would make better decisions but I won't hide my failures and I hope to celebrate a few successes

Bill


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## Tex Gal (Mar 28, 2008)

This is such interesting info. The RCWP that I got from you is slowly getting thinner and thinner. At first I thought I saw new growth but then realized it was not so. I though maybe my CRS were eating it as they always seem to be grazing on it. So I moved some into a tank without shrimp. It doesn't seem to be growing. I have it in two tanks. I'm not sure what will be the outcome. My CRS tank has lots of water current, mineralized soil, R/O water changes, CO2 and high light. The other tank has no fertilzation, frequent water changes, tap water (higher phosphates, no CO2. I guess we'll see.


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

Thanks Drinda,
Mine are getting thinner too. I have been going down the same path - is it being eaten? Does it not like the water conditions? The plants in my 90 gallon are skeletons with the exception of one plant that has started to sprout these thin, dark green leaves similar to what I see on one of my plants in the sulawesi tank

here is the 90 gallon RCWP









here are recent pictures from the Sulawesi tank



















The last picture has the plant with the new dark green spindley growth. It can be barely seen on the plant growing on the rock, center of the picture. The new growth is on the top slightly to the left. I need a better camera to show it I'm afraid. I have also noticed that my plants are not a dense as they were - by this I mean that the do not sink as fast. This is an odd observation but I know that when they utilize bicarbonate as a carbon source for photosynthesis they deposit calcium in/in the stems. The plants sank like rocks when I first got them. I think they have been losing the calcium deposits. Some of my plants have even floated up to the surface when bubbles from out gassing settled on them. Not sure what tht means though

Bill


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## marrow (Feb 4, 2007)

I may be mistaken but I read on one of the non-us forums, I think a saigon one, that chara sp. needed lots of light and that they had placed the plants in pots with crushed coral to revive them periodically. You could always try treating them in the non shrimp tank with a a bit of baking soda to see if it improves things.


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## datta_sid (Oct 22, 2009)

Just a warning I got from my plant club: small UV's (5 or 10W) are not very effective. Even with bigger UV lights, fast flow of water might make them ineffective.

Not sure if that is an issue in your case, but just thought you should know.


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

*Thanks Marrow* - I think that could well be the case, I will try to set a few up in similar conditions to see if that revives them. I appreciate your feedback!

*datta sid*, I have an Aqua UltraViolet 15 watt system. It is really important to size these for the tank and for the flow rate. For my system, I could use it to prevent green water at a flow rate of 500 to 700 gph (providing a UV dose of 30,000 uw/cm3) but to kill bacteria and parasites, you need to expose them to more UV. The flow through the filter should be less than 230gph for a dose of 90,000uw/cm3 and you should have 3-5 tank volumes per hour going through the filter - just about right for my set up of 60 gallons. The new needle wheel does not flow through that loop of the filter so my rough estimate is that I am seeing about 200gph through the UV.

Bill


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## aquarius45 (Nov 10, 2009)

Hi Bill,
Thanks for your advice; you just saved me ages of unnecessary work tracking down these RCWPs! I will definitely be sharing as much info as I can in the next few months 

Just a quick question, I've got a good pH of about 8.0 but my GH and KH are ridiculously high (about 13°-18° for both of them). Is there anyway I can make the water softer but retain the same pH? Or do you think it's better to leave it alone?

Cheers, Will.


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

Hi Will,

I have similar water issues - high pH but also high kH and Gh - my TDS is almost 500 also.

First I would find out what the water parameters are where your shrimp are coming from. If they are wild caught, the water parameters for lake Towuti are posted earlier in this thread. I'd look to be as close as possible to that. If they are captive bred - find out what the breeder has for water.
Do you have access to RO water? If so, you can do what I am doing, put RO into a bucket with crushed coral sand and a power head. Let this sit for 1 or two days. The treated water comes out with a pH of 8.2 to 8.5. kH is 2 and GH is 2. This also provdes some buffering to the water with the dissolved CaCO3. 
I set up my tank with a mix of ADA Amazonia Malaya, crushed coral sand and regular sand - and I would not do this again. I had to add a big CaCOs rich rock in the tank + coral sand + coral chips in the filter to counter the ADA acid buffering. Use inert sand or fine gravel. you can add coral chips to your filter is needed.

Good luck Will!


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## dhavoc (May 4, 2006)

not a cure all, but i use inert gravel (flourite black in my case) and just add coral chips in the HOB filters i use on the tank. water that goes in is pure RO. ph is steady, and i found that multiple small heaters do a much better job of keeping a stable temp than one larger one. if one fails on or off, it cant overheat or let the water cool off too much on its own. you have time to find the problem and replace the heater. cardinals have gone from 4 to maybe 15-20 of various sizes, and the adult female is berried pretty much all the time.

my RWC is also thining out, will try moving it to a high light nano, with crushed coral to see if it does better.


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

Hi Darrin,

I agree with the inert gravel. A much better way to go.

Sorry to hear about the RCWP - I am dealing with this as well. I think the idea of adding some HCO3 could be a good one if you are able to remove the plants. They can use this as a carbon source. I am giving it a try and will report back. Great to hear your Cardinals are doing well!

Speaking of water chemistry, I found a very interesting ( but challenging) paper on the water chemistry of Lake Matano! It was published recently and the authors took readings at various depths through the water column. In a nut shell, the lake is remarkable for it's low productivity as measured by things like phytoplankton in the water column. It has less productivity that most Arctic lakes! This is atributed to very little organic matter, phophorus, and nitrogen compounds coupled with a high levels of Nickel and hexavalent chromium. I was suprised by the levels of these metals!
Any way, here is the link - have your on-line dictionary open.
http://aslo.org/lo/pdf/vol_53/issue_1/0319.pdf

Bill


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## zxc (Nov 10, 2009)

Very interesting forum. i'm glad i'm here a lot info to learn.
Bill, you have amazing diffrent species shrimp and nice equipment.
What kind of rock in your tank? ( rainbow colour ) very nice.:icon_smil


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

Welcome to the Planted Tank ZXC!

I have found this forum to be very friendly and populated with knowledgable folks. Thank you for your kind words, I am learning about these shrimp as I go along. I hope I can keep them going.

The colorful rocks are a locally collected basalt. It does have an iron rich element in it which provides the orange/ red layers. It has proven to be inert and I can find a lot of different shapes to use in my tanks.

Bill


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## marrow (Feb 4, 2007)

Bill have you considered using actual plants (as opposed to algae) that can make use use of carbonate and grow well in hard water such as the ubiquitous vals?


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

*How to import tropical fish*

Hi Marrow - I did consider them. I have a prodcutive colony of giant hair grass so I have used these in the tank - and they are resonably authentic as sulawasi does have a native eleocharis species. Still may think about it though.

*A FIND!*

Many of you asked about importing and I provided feeble answers about what I did. I had looked at the actual regulations and it is a bit confusing but - here is a great link on importing tropical fish from Randy Carey. It is easy to understand and you will now know what is required. Turns out I did everything right - except for the wildlife inspection. 

Those interested, check out this link! 

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article15.html

Bill


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## datta_sid (Oct 22, 2009)

Hey Bill,

Thanks for the paper.

I was able to see it a few days ago, but did not save it. Now I try to open it for a serious read , and now the site asks login password .

Any way you can upload the paper somewhere ?
Thanks


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

Hi Datta Sid,

Are you talking about the water chemistry paper? If you do a google search on the title you will be able to open the link it finds - don't know why that is. I did get a copy of the paper from the author but can't post a copy righted pdf on the forum. Give it a try with google. If that doesn't work, pm me.

Bill


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## datta_sid (Oct 22, 2009)

Got it ( Google the link > Quick view > Print )


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## datta_sid (Oct 22, 2009)

Since you started to oxygenate the water with a powerhead, are all your shrimp (specially sensitive ones, yellowcheek, redline) happy ?

( Carefully worded to prevent hexing  )


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

Well - thanks!
Hey congratulations on your cardinal shrimplets! (read about that on another forum)

You know I can't say if it has made any substantial difference honestly, I have lost several redlines and a couple of yellow cheeks and I could not begin to guess at the cause!

I will say this, with out good oxyegn levels, i think I may have lost more. There is yet another paper - search on this in google
Protozoan ciliate epibionts on the *freshwater* shrimp

The paper deals with Caridina species in Matano and Towuti. Turns out they have lots of these sessile protozoan colonizing Sulawesi shrimp. Interesting reads. The location of the colonization on the shrimps bodies varies between the lakes! The authors comment that under stress ful conditions such as high densities or sub optimal conditions, the epibionts can actually foul the gill areas by over growing them. The shrimp then can suffocate! I would be willing to bet a buck or two that this might be what i was seeing and why putting shrimp into my "oxygen tent" kept them alive but didn't cure them. It may be why the exporter kept stressing the need for high oxygen in the water. Sulawesi shrimp have more species of these epibionts than any other Caridina species.

Now I also would guess that this isn't the only thing happening but I would love to know more. The best defense is to have happy shrimp that are eating and molting. Molting sheds these pests.

i will give a more detailed update this week end

Bill


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## datta_sid (Oct 22, 2009)

So hypothesis : Remove a molt if you see it, specially for the F0, it probably contains the protozoa ?

Once we have tank bred these long enough maybe we will be free of this curse ( ie sulawesis will be as vulnerable as any other. )


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## datta_sid (Oct 22, 2009)

Hi bill, I just read the paper on chemistry of lake Matano.

While the concentration of Cr, Ni, Mn, Co are really high, it is actually close to ~1ppm.

However, the concentration of Fe(II) is close to 112 ppm ( at 10m depth ). 

Maybe Iron is the material we are missing ? I am not sure of the biological needs for Cr,Ni etc, but iron is pretty important I believe.

The concentration of iron at less depth are not given, maybe its absent. The shrimp typically live in shallow water it seems, so I am not 100% sure iron is significant.

But I will sure try to put a lot of spinach in their diet . I now put spinach in to feed the Tylo's in the tank. Thinking about making shrimp cookies from spinach, chickpea powder and cuttle-bone, that should take care of a few nutrient needs.

I guess my previous comment was cryptic. I was just wondering if removing the molts ( as opposed to letting the shrimp eat them ) will help in preventing a protozoan outbreak.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I thought there was a reason not to feed spinach to aquarium residents as a green veggie?... Can't remember what it was, though...


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## Church (Sep 14, 2004)

I know that for marine fishes it's not suitable for their digestive systems. Not sure if that applies to freshwater fish also. I do know that there are many reports of people feeding spinach or lettuce to their freshwater herbivores with no problems at all, but you don't see this in the marine side of the hobby. In fact, a lot of marine fish food will state on the packaging "does not contain any spinach or lettuce." I've seen this before!


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## datta_sid (Oct 22, 2009)

Googled it, could not find what the problem might be.

However, for any vegetable you need to make sure there is NO pesticide on the thing before putting it in the tank. Thorough washing is needed.

I boil before feeding, I throw the water away....


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I couldn't find it, but I remember a thread where Carole commented on it... where's Carole been, anyways? (waterfaller1)


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## Church (Sep 14, 2004)

She's been around. I saw her commenting in the GLA forum not too long ago.


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

The Chromium and Nickel are high for aquatic systems but I am not going to try and duplicate it - hexavalent Cr is a carcinogen!

I think this paper describes the surrounding soils and sediments. 

"The surficial geology of the catchment basin
is dominated by nickeliferrous lateritic soils (which contain​
up to 60
% iron oxides) that have developed on ultramafic
rocks of ophiolitic origin (Golightly 1981). As a result, the
sediments of the Malili Lakes are Fe-rich and can contain
more than 20 weight percent Fe (hydr)oxides (Crowe et al.
2004)."​ 
Now that is a mouthful! I wondered about the sediment levels of iron as well, if not a direct trace element, it could be important for microbes that the shrimp feed on. I did go out and buy some laterite and sprinkled some of the granular material at each end of the tank near the plants. Who knows! I have also been adding Kent Marines' Essential Elements with my water changes This contains Ca, I, Fe, Mn, Mg, Molybdenum, and K. ​ 
The Ultramafic rock definition from wikipedia:​ 
*"Ultramafic* (also referred to as *ultrabasic*) rocks are igneous and meta-igneous rocks with very low silica content (less than 45%), generally >18% MgO, high FeO, low potassium, and are composed of usually greater than 90% mafic minerals (dark colored, high magnesium and iron content)."​ 
So, there are traces in these lakes, and iron seems to be a big one, at least in the sediment. ​ 
Bill​​


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## datta_sid (Oct 22, 2009)

Bill, tell us if you note an increase in shrimp survival rate since you started dosing Kent's minerals.

How is the berried yellow doing ?


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

Well - like many of the things I have been doing, I am not sure I can quantify the outcome.

Here is a quick update. I am going to write up a more detailed summary of the last 30+ days. A part of this will be a list of what i would do differently (or what I will do next time...)

I have continued to lose Red Lines and Harlequins. At this point I have one - yes one Harlequin. This is sad and humbling. I couldn't tell you why they died. Generally you could spot a problem by noticing a shrimp has become inactive. Usually the next morning you would find it had died. The shrimp seem active and feed up to this point, at least it would seem so. The redlines are down to 5. Same characteristics, inactive and then dead the next morning. I don't think the trace elements have changed this.

The yellow cheeks ( knocking furiously on wood) have been stable. Over the last 10 days or so, I have only lost one and it appeared to be a molting issue. The shrimp could not shed the head/thorax portion. I have about 10 yellow cheeks including the berried female. They may be benefitting from the current routine. 

The Cardinals have been doing well. There have been a few puzzling losses but generally cardinal mortality can be traced to human error (the Purigen debacle for instance) I keep watching the berried females hoping to see shrimplets. Seems to be taking forever!

Bill


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## datta_sid (Oct 22, 2009)

Berried females will take forever ( ~1 month ). Stop checking on them to speed things up lol.

Congrats ( and best wishes ) on your yellowcheeks. I have 3 left, I not expecting any babies from them .... I am not even sure they are the same species ( yellow line, yellow cheek ) ...

It is great that aristocratama is breeding all these, including harlequins, else we will be guilty of driving these to extinction . Now only if they will tell us their secrets ......

Anyone know anyone inside Aristocratama that we can bribe to know how they do it ? haha!


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## datta_sid (Oct 22, 2009)

PS. I coincidentally put flourite as the bottom layer of my tank. I was going to have a planted tank, but my tylo's decided to rescape my tank and now I have anacharis and rotala floating as nitrate absorbents......

I guess I got lucky since flourite is iron rich


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## dxiong5 (Sep 28, 2008)

*bill* - Sorry to hear that some of your shrimp aren't doing well. I too am down to one Harlequin (out of 5). I've had this one since mid-October; makes me wonder, since some (one) can survive in the aquarium, perhaps more can - we just need to acclimate them carefully and wish for the best shipping from overseas. I'm confident that they can and will breed in our tanks if somehow they all don't die off! >.< The question is: How can we ensure their survival..?!


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

Hi datta sid and Don 

Thanks. We are all trying to learn how to keep these beautiful shrimp and I appreciate the dialog. Don, I share your belief that we can get keep these guys successfully. Gettting them through the first couple of months will help!

Aristocratama keeps their shrimp in bare tanks with a couple pieces of slate propped up on an angle on another small rock. This must make it very easy to keep very clean tanks and probably eliminates some of the problems we are having. I think that taking new shrimp and acclimating them to new conditions might be best done using bare tanks. get them healthy and conditioned to your water and get them eating your food.

This is on my list of things to do differently next time. 

Bill

I have hornwort as my nitrate absorber. It grows quickly in this tank - I hope that doesn't suggest to much nitrate!


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## datta_sid (Oct 22, 2009)

billb said:


> Aristocratama keeps their shrimp in bare tanks with a couple pieces of slate propped up on an angle on another small rock. This must make it very easy to keep very clean tanks and probably eliminates some of the problems we are having. I think that taking new shrimp and acclimating them to new conditions might be best done using bare tanks. get them healthy and conditioned to your water and get them eating your food.


Are you referring to to the video on their site ? I am also interested in how they condition their water, to have the right minerals ( maybe filter over sulawesi rocks ? ). Also what do they feed, I have a feeling feeding mosura will be too expensive for them.



billb said:


> I have hornwort as my nitrate absorber. It grows quickly in this tank - I hope that doesn't suggest to much nitrate!


nah I think it is very happy with all the carbonate in your water.

Thanks
-Sid


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## Ravenmoon (Nov 18, 2009)

Very pretty shrimp!


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## aquarius45 (Nov 10, 2009)

*Update*

Hi Bill,
Just started up an aquarium for the cardinals. It's only holds 60 liters but hopefully it should be enough for 6-10 of them.

Equipment:

-Aquaone Horizon 60 Aquarium
-Fluval U2 filter
-Standard 55W heater
-Airstone
-Silica sand
-A lump of Ocean rock
-T4 18W x1 light

I'll try to upload some pictures soon!


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

*Update - Dec 6th*

Been a couple weeks since I updated and there have been some significant events.
The strange brown spot disease came back with a vengeance on my yellow cheeks. I don't have a picture, but there are several posts on other forums that have pictures. Often this is described as "Sulawesi disease" and seems to mostly impact Yellow Cheeks but other species have been described as having been stricken.
I saw my big female out in the open the weekend before Thanksgiving and she had three big discolored areas - and she no longer had eggs. Later that day, I saw two more yellow cheeks with the "brown spots of death" to quote Datta-Sid. This was really disappointing as it seemed the yellow cheeks were doing so well up to this point. At the same time, I started to lose some Cardinals. They did not have brown spots, but the affected animals seemed to have bright read heads and maroon tails. I was losing several shrimp per day!
Desperate, I did a lot of searching and found a lot of discussion on shrimp diseases in aquaculture articles. Gram negative bacteria seem to be the most common bacterial problem for shrimp, but I had no way of determining what was causing the deaths. There are several significant viral infections too. As I was losing many shrimp, including the cardinals, I decided to treat with Maracyn 2. This was supposed to be Invertebrate safe.
I treated for 3 days at the recommended dosage. The death rate continued and I lost all my yellow cheeks bythe Tuesday before Thanksgiving. On Wed, I lost all my remaining redlines, my last Harlequin and 5(!) cardinals. I stopped the treatment, did a water change and added some activated carbon to remove the Maracyn 2. This was a disaster.
So, I have a cardinal only tank right now and things have settled down. My best guess is that I have 10 to 12 cardinals left and they seem active. All through the time period that I was losing shrimp, I would see fresh molts. Even the yellow cheeks were molting. Some thoughts:
1) I believe that my plans to create a Sulawesi display tank was too ambitious. 200 shrimp with 4 species in a tank was too crowded and probably stressed the shrimp. 
2)The red cherry water plants probably did provide forage initially but the plants "melted" over time and the remains probably contributed to a higher bacterial load than I needed in the tank. More on Red Cherry Water plants later.
3) I will do an inert substrate next time - no ADA Aquasoil. In fact, I will likely do bare bottomed species tanks like the breeder does. Easier to maintain pristine conditions. 
4) Species only tanks would allow me to determine if the stock is diseased. and treat only the affected animals.
5) I did take some of the freshly dead animnals and freeze them. There is a shrimp pathology lab and I will see if they can look at the shrimp. I'd like to have some more insight into what killed them before importing again
The cardinals do seem to be the hardiest on the 4 species - they mostly were killed because of my meddling. I am going to curtail my urges to fiddle/improve their tank in the future - stability seems to be critical.
Well - how about a little good news? Remember i mentioned that the Red Cherry Water Plants (RCWP) had melted? Well, they appear to be regrowing out of the substrate. The ones that were just placed on the sand and left alone ( not attached to stone with thread) have sprouted new growth. There appears to be two forms. The first to appear are thin, dark green growth, very different from the original plant. Here is a crummy picture








here is a closer look








I have some algae - annoying and I don't want to go after it aggressively with Excel or H2O2 or blackouts - it would likely kill my shrimp and or RCWP. The RCWP are an algae too! I will keep manually removing what I can
Here is the second form of new growth. It looks much more like the originl plant. I am hopefull that this keeps growing. I'll have a good number of plants.
















Not sure if this thread has provided any real help for others interested in these shrimp. Certainly I have not had any breakthroughs, but I do know what I will try next time.
Bill


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## datta_sid (Oct 22, 2009)

Sorry about your loss! My condolences.

I would blame aquasoil a bit........ it might have kept the pH lower closer to the soil, where the shrimp graze. Also ammonia might have been present closer to the soil before the bacteria could get them. Ammonia I believe is deadly in alkaline water.

Also I have seen you HAVE to provide them some sort of overhang, under which they can run when scared. I decided I want to watch them anyways, so I put in a flat piece of rock propped up from 2 sides by 2 other pieces of rock (kind of a dolmen). They liked that so much, I made a double storied one too (will post pics once I get home ). They also hang out under the sponge filter. You tank had enough hiding space I believe, but not sure if that was enough for 200 shrimp. Might have added to the stress.

Eagerly waiting for your shrimp post-mortem results.

News from my side: quite a few cardinal shrimplets have appeared. I have pregnant yellowcheek (knock on wood), not getting my hopes up yet :tongue:.


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

Go Sid!

I agree completely with your observation about the over hang. It is quite likely that a lack of adequate hiding caused some stress early on, but couldn't explain later losses. I also know the breeder did not have many places for them to hide either, but they had bare tanks so the water was probably clean enough to avoid having pathogens ready to strike the stressed shrimp!

Really glad to hear about your yellow cheeks too. I do believe that they are pretty hardy to ( as opposed to harlequins) please keep us updated!

Bill


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## adrianng1996 (Dec 1, 2009)

I WANT SHRIMP LIKE THAT!! but around here cant find any...sad....i love the red lines,yellow cheeks and harlequins

AWESOME


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## feiyang (Jan 25, 2008)

any updates?


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## datta_sid (Oct 22, 2009)

Updates from my side:

Something recently happened. I am not sure what. Something to do with the recent roach infestation and people using pesticides, maybe, I am not sure.

The effect is that all my yellowcheeks disappeared. I never even found the bodies, but then again, the snails are always hungry.

My cardinals produced babies a few times before this event. But I no longer see any berries females anymore. Havent seen any for a month or so. But I have a moderate colony grazing in my tank.

Also, I cannot see them as well any more. They have figured out in this tank there is no danger from the above, only danger is me. So they no longer hide under overhangs, they only hide behind stuff like filters, heaters etc. They do come out in the open to graze, when I am not around.


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## aelysa (Oct 20, 2006)

Bill, you need to update this thread on this forum! This info is like, soooo four months ago


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## ryantube (Jan 8, 2012)

Digging up from 2010. Any updates?


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## BlackDiamondShrimp (Feb 2, 2011)

Wow wow wow! Thanks a lot for sharing!


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

These same shrimp won't be alive today...


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