# Java fern dieing off



## robertw (Feb 11, 2010)

Hey everyone,

I'm new to the this site, and definitely a beginner to planted tanks. I currently have a 55g malawi cichlid tank. I have done a some research on cichlid-forum about planted tanks, and have had my planted tank for about 5 months. 

I have never been able to get the java fern to stay alive for more than 2-3 months without it dieing off. If it doesn't die off it looks very unhealthy with black or brown spots on the leaves. I have 110w light, I keep it on for roughly 5-6hrs a day, if I leave the light on longer algae growth spirals out of control.

I have also recently started to add co2 to the tank, as well as ferts, and it appears the plants have begun to worsen. I really don't know what else to do other than go to plastic plants 

I can post pics if anyone needs more info on my lighting setup, and plant condition. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.


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## EdwardN (Nov 7, 2008)

Since English is my third language, would you, or anybody else, terribly mind explaining to me your term 'dieing'?


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## DavidZ (Nov 17, 2009)

What are your first 2 languages
not nice Ed


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## i love planted tanks (Apr 27, 2008)

java ferns are one of the easiest plants to grow.the only thing i could think of,do you have a bad snail problem in your tank?....pics would help


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

i've had problems with ferns doing what you described(turning blackish then falling apart).

the only thing i thought might have happened was they didn't like be transferred from high tech tank to a low light tank. if the minimum conditions are being met, they should bounce back.


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## robertw (Feb 11, 2010)

i love planted tanks said:


> java ferns are one of the easiest plants to grow.the only thing i could think of,do you have a bad snail problem in your tank?....pics would help


No snail problems in my tank, whatever snails that were in there my loaches should have gotten already. 

Here is a pic I have, I can get a better one after work tonight.









You can see the spots all over the plants, a few plants leaves have turned yellowish/brown in color. I have no idea what to do to save these plants.



oldpunk78 said:


> i've had problems with ferns doing what you described(turning blackish then falling apart).
> 
> the only thing i thought might have happened was they didn't like be transferred from high tech tank to a low light tank. if the minimum conditions are being met, they should bounce back.


I have no clue what I am doing wrong, I mean java fern is supposed to be idiot proof. I have the plants tied or wedged between rocks, and not in the substrate to prevent rotting. I have stopped injecting co2 to see what happens, and took the carbon out of my filters. 

I thought I had enough light to keep the plants alive (2 watts per gallon) I have a 110w compact fluorescent light, figured that should be enough to keep java's or anubias.


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## robertw (Feb 11, 2010)

Also should I not be doing water changes as often? I have been doing about 10-15%, weekly.


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## Sakmeht (Mar 5, 2008)

My Java fern looked a lot like yours and the old leaves still do, but one of the things they've responded to is better light. I had 5000K CF lights over my 30 gallon tank. About 50 watts worth, but the spread was pretty bad, so I upgraded to a coralife T5 2x18W normal output hood and I've seen new clean growth. But at close to the same time I started using Excel and Flourish Comprehensive. So, I guess it could be any of those! But I'm guessing the light. I don't inject CO2 and my javas are in the substrate. Gravel capping Schultz Aquatic Soil. 

Still learning here too, I'm guessing you'll get some more helpful replies!

Forgot to add that I haven't done a water change in a couple months. I just top off because I have an open top tank and have to keep up with the evaporation.


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## robertw (Feb 11, 2010)

Sakmeht said:


> My Java fern looked a lot like yours and the old leaves still do, but one of the things they've responded to is better light. I had 5000K CF lights over my 30 gallon tank. About 50 watts worth, but the spread was pretty bad, so I upgraded to a coralife T5 2x18W normal output hood and I've seen new clean growth. But at close to the same time I started using Excel and Flourish Comprehensive. So, I guess it could be any of those! But I'm guessing the light. I don't inject CO2 and my javas are in the substrate. Gravel capping Schultz Aquatic Soil.
> 
> Still learning here too, I'm guessing you'll get some more helpful replies!
> 
> Forgot to add that I haven't done a water change in a couple months. I just top off because I have an open top tank and have to keep up with the evaporation.


Interesting that you're having success with the rhizome in the substrate. I read that the plants rot being planted since it wont be able to get nutrients being in the substrate.

How many watts per gallon are you using now, and what spectrum of light do these plants need?


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## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

can i get some specs on this tank please...

PH?
ammo?
nitrite?
species of cichlids?
do you keep salt in the water like you should for malawi cichlids?
what substrate are you using?

thanks
F


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## robertw (Feb 11, 2010)

I will get test results as soon as I get home from work.

Substrate: Pool filter sand
Species of fish:
2 Metriaclima greshakei 
1 Metriaclima estherae 
2 Pseudotropheus socolofi 
1 Labidochromis caeruleus 
1 Placidochromis milomo 
1 Copadichromis borleyi
5 Red Tail Botia


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## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

salt?
how deep is the sand bed?


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## robertw (Feb 11, 2010)

I started the tank with some salt, and have not added any in the last 7 months since I've had the tank up and running, as far as I know from what I gather on the forums is that very few individuals use salt. Many only use it to help treat ich.

I have about 3-3.5" of substrate.


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## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

if you have java fern falling apart i think there is a decent amount of salt still in the tank.. that is the only thinkg i have ever seen kill java.

also are you dosing any ferts?


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## robertw (Feb 11, 2010)

I really have my doubts as to there being any salt left in the tank, I do weekly water changes, with a 50% water change every couple of months. 

I dose fertz (forgot which manufacturer) after every water change. 

Maybe I am doing water changes to often, and removing to many nutrients while not dosing enough. But at the same time if I don't do the water changes or dose more than I normally do I get algae blooms.:confused1:

Also could the java fern be stressed with fish occasionally nipping at the plants?


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## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

nope, i keep java with africans all the time and it does well, i keep a trace amount of salt in the aquariums, i would say stop changing water for a few weeks and keep dosing and see where that takes you...


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## robertw (Feb 11, 2010)

Do you have a lot of algae between not doing water changes as often, dosing fertz, and all the lighting?


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## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

no, i havent changed water in 3 months.. looks fine


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## robertw (Feb 11, 2010)

Interesting, I wonder what I am doing wrong lol.


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

F22 said:


> if you have java fern falling apart i think there is a decent amount of salt still in the tank.. that is the only thinkg i have ever seen kill java.
> 
> also are you dosing any ferts?


Java Fern is suppose to be extremely salt tolerant. I've had some in 1.008sg (1/3 full marine salinity) and it is doing fine. In fact it's probably doing better than my other freshwater tanks, which always have problems with java fern. They don't seem to grow at all in my low light tanks, and in my high light CO2 tank, they tend to get unsightly brown spots like the OP described.

As for the concern about planting java fern in the substrate, any java fern I've ordered has always come with the roots full of soil. Same has been true of some of the anubias I've ordered. My guess is java fern does well when planted "on" the substrate, allowing the roots to grow into nutrient rich substrate, but keeping the rhizome above the substrate.


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## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

see! this is proof that it is bullet proof


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## leemacnyc (Dec 28, 2005)

are you dosing excel? i found my java didn't like it at all...


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## DavidZ (Nov 17, 2009)

you can do the WTC no problem
it could be low PH, the salt would do it also as F22 stated, 10-20% wtc is nothing
sometimes the mother plants will show this color and basically reproduce and die off 
post your water parameters


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## fishyjoe24 (Dec 10, 2009)

do you have power heads in the tank, it needs water movement at least 1.5/a gallon but what I would do is get a par meter and test how much light you are actually getting.
I also found my java fern turning black and it was in low lighting. a 55 gallon with only 18 watts of light on each side,36 watts total and got behind on water changes. now that I'm doing water chances of 25% a week some times 2 times a week, and have 72 watts now (almost 1.5 watts) it's bloom out and growing. I started with a 8 steam java fern that has became 40-50 leafs.


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

Round #2 in my attempt to debunk salt as the blame:

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PlantedTksSubWebIndex/microsorium.htm

"One of the hardiest of aquarium plants, and certainly at the top of the list of most appropriate, readily available brackish system plant choices."

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/BrackishSubWebIndex/bracplants.htm

"One of the best brackish water plant species. In fact, about the only regularly sold aquarium plant that is "naturally" brackish."


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## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

ok, well if you really want to "debunk salt" you can I was simply stating what i have observed in my own aquariums both at home and at the shop...


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## AkCrimson (Dec 17, 2009)

I have javas in 2 medium light tanks. I've been dosing excel and mine have started getting black spots and hole in them. I'm going to stop dosing excel and switch to DIY and see if that helps. Everything else in my tanks is normal so that's the only think I can think of.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Well it sounds like you tried to grow the fern under 2wpg without co2 or ferts under less than ideal conditions. Based on the pic, it looks nutrient deficent.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

houseofcards said:


> Well it sounds like you tried to grow the fern under 2wpg without co2 or ferts under less than ideal conditions. Based on the pic, it looks nutrient deficent.


Agreed.

2wpg over a big tank usually ends up "high light." What type of fixture do you have?

Were you trying pressurized or DIY CO2? B/c on a tank this size you need pressurized, DIY won't get you anywhere.


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## robertw (Feb 11, 2010)

Test Results:
GH: looks like 0 or 30 hard to read
KH: 0
PH: 7.5
Nitrite:0
Nitrate: 40ppm
Ammo: 0


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## DavidZ (Nov 17, 2009)

your problem is the GH/KH shouldn't be 0
do the same tests on your source water
looks like you need to bring up your GH/KH a drop, to stabilize your PH.
(CC or baking soda will do the trick)


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## miguel959 (Jan 19, 2010)

fishyjoe24 said:


> do you have power heads in the tank, it needs water movement at least 1.5/a gallon but what I would do is get a par meter and test how much light you are actually getting.
> I also found my java fern turning black and it was in low lighting. a 55 gallon with only 18 watts of light on each side,36 watts total and got behind on water changes. now that I'm doing water chances of 25% a week some times 2 times a week, and have 72 watts now (almost 1.5 watts) it's bloom out and growing. I started with a 8 steam java fern that has became 40-50 leafs.


Look at my 55g. I got 18 watts of light on each side and the Java Fern I have is huge. The whole stump has Fern growing all over it. Some at the bottom of the tank and the big plant is 4 inches below the light. Either way I got good grow out of the plant in all levels of the tank with this light set up. I have never had problems growing Java Fern in low light but I also have them attached to driftwood or something else. I have never been able to keep it alive when its planted into the substrate. This is a low light plant and I don't think that light is an issue.


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## fishyjoe24 (Dec 10, 2009)

miguel959 said:


> Look at my 55g. I got 18 watts of light on each side and the Java Fern I have is huge. The whole stump has Fern growing all over it. Some at the bottom of the tank and the big plant is 4 inches below the light. Either way I got good grow out of the plant in all levels of the tank with this light set up. I have never had problems growing Java Fern in low light but I also have them attached to driftwood or something else. I have never been able to keep it alive when its planted into the substrate. This is a low light plant and I don't think that light is an issue.


THANKS, that might be my problem then it's in the substrate, I upgraded to more watts because I also needed better light for my narrow leaf ludwigia water sprite, and peacock fern. 

I also went back and agree the GH/KH shouldn't be 0. check your source water, and use some buffer.


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## miguel959 (Jan 19, 2010)

I'm looking to upgrade too but I just wanted to let Robert know that light is not a problem here.


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## robertw (Feb 11, 2010)

I am going to test my tap water, as well as my tank water tonight.

On the test strips it's tough to tell whether the kh is o or 30, difficult to distinguish the shade. And how much buffer (baking soda) is needed to adjust per gallon?

What are appropriate levels for the kh/gh?


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## Madfish (Sep 9, 2007)

What kind of ferts are you using. I had this same problem when I first started out. It ended up being to much iron and that was melting them away. Please let us know what kind of ferts and how much your are dosing.


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## robertw (Feb 11, 2010)

Madfish said:


> What kind of ferts are you using. I had this same problem when I first started out. It ended up being to much iron and that was melting them away. Please let us know what kind of ferts and how much your are dosing.


I was using tetraplant florapride. I have since stopped using it to try and solve my problem and things seem to have stabilized. The leaves of the java fern have from what I have noticed, stopped rotting away. What had been damaged is still damaged but a few of the new plants I bought, a few java fern, and 3 anubias, seem to be stable for now. 

What's funny though is that a friend of mine with a community tank does nothing, doesn't check ph, no buffers, doesn't dose ferts and his java fern is thriving lol. I think it was the fertilizer I was using since he doesn't use it and we get our plants from the same place, and use the same public water in our tanks.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

your friend's light could be much lower than yours.

All plants need, light, nutrients, and CO2 to thrive. The intensity of the light drives the need for the nutrients and CO2. So basically, lower your lights or supply more nutrient *AND* CO2 or excel (a Carbon substitute).

http://www.plantedtank.net/articles/Basics-to-starting-a-Planted-Tank/4/


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## robertw (Feb 11, 2010)

mistergreen said:


> your friend's light could be much lower than yours.
> 
> All plants need, light, nutrients, and CO2 to thrive. The intensity of the light drives the need for the nutrients and CO2. So basically, lower your lights or supply more nutrient *AND* CO2 or excel (a Carbon substitute).
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/articles/Basics-to-starting-a-Planted-Tank/4/


I had nutrients in the tank, and co2, with the addition of these two things is when I noticed the start of my plant decay. I also only have 2wpg which seems to be the minimum, running for about 4-5hrs a day, other than that it is just a bit of natural light in the room. I am going to try not using nutrients or co2 and see what happens.

Anyways I've been trying to maintain my nitrates to see if that helps, and not doing water changes as often.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

robertw said:


> I am going to try not using nutrients or co2 and see what happens.


this doesn't make much sense. Your plants are dying off so you limit/starve them.. hmmmm.

Here's a novel thought. Maybe didn't add enough ferts and CO2.
Plants need a wide variety of nutrients like N,P,K, micros, Mg, Ca, and S.

good luck with your experiment.


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## robertw (Feb 11, 2010)

mistergreen said:


> this doesn't make much sense. Your plants are dying off so you limit/starve them.. hmmmm.
> 
> Here's a novel thought. Maybe didn't add enough ferts and CO2.
> Plants need a wide variety of nutrients like N,P,K, micros, Mg, Ca, and S.
> ...


Thanks for the info mistersarcasm.

I added the amount of ferts as specified in the directions on the bottle. I had co2 as well. I already tried adding more ferts and it seemed to make things worse.

I am going to try running a 40w light as opposed to my 110 for longer periods of time, see if that has anything to do with it.

Here are the lights I have. 110w on the left, 40w on the right. I think I may pickup a daylight spectrum bulb from home depot tomorrow for the 40w.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

robertw said:


> I am going to try running a 40w light as opposed to my 110 for longer periods of time, see if that has anything to do with it.


roud:

60w-80w (t8 bulb) would be ideal. You can cut off the dead leaves.


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## robertw (Feb 11, 2010)

I believe the ballast is 40w, will I be able to run say a 60w or 80w t8 bulb?


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## DavidZ (Nov 17, 2009)

Some people don't need to add anything and low light palnts do well, with up to 2W, if they have a heavy fish load.
You might need to buffer your water a touch.


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## Kamivy (Jan 3, 2010)

robertw said:


> I believe the ballast is 40w, will I be able to run say a 60w or 80w t8 bulb?


If you exceed the wattage of your ballast, you will burn it out. You need to upgrade the ballasts to safely use higher wattage bulbs. (You can do this with T5 lighting, as they come in Normal Output or High Output, however T8's do not - I think the wattage of T8 bulbs is dependant on the length of the tube - 4ft is 40 watts for eg, You can't buy a 60 or 80 watt 4 foot T8 tube.
If you want 80 watts of t8, use a twin t8 light strip, or get another single.


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## robertw (Feb 11, 2010)

So I looked at my ballast, it uses t10's. Went to home depot, all they have are t12's, t8's, and t5's. I think they are all interchangeable except for t5's. I went with the t12 since it was 40w vs the t8 32w. 

Is there a significant difference between the 32w t8 and 40w t12 for light output? I currently only have a ballast for single bulb, I may look into getting a ballast for two t8's but is the 40w t12 sufficient for the time being? It's a 6500k, phillips daylight deluxe.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

the smaller the number the more efficient the light output.
t5 outputs more light than t10 for example at the same wattage.

You can't put a t12 in a t10 fixture and vice versa. The ballasts are designed for a specific bulb type.

What's the other fixture, 110w one?

And if you're using tap water, I wouldn't worry about the GH&KH. You probably have a bum test kit.


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## robertw (Feb 11, 2010)

mistergreen said:


> the smaller the number the more efficient the light output.
> t5 outputs more light than t10 for example at the same wattage.
> 
> You can't put a t12 in a t10 fixture and vice versa. The ballasts are designed for a specific bulb type.
> ...


The 110w is a HO compact florescent, 9325k, I went out again to look for some t10 bulbs and can't find any t10 bulbs above 5000k.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I think the light technology have moved on to t-8s and smaller.

you can sell off your lights to get 2 new t-8 bulbs or 1 t5/ho bulb fixture.

Or keep your lights and get CO2/excel and dose nutrients.


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## robertw (Feb 11, 2010)

mistergreen said:


> I think the light technology have moved on to t-8s and smaller.
> 
> you can sell off your lights to get 2 new t-8 bulbs or 1 t5/ho bulb fixture.
> 
> Or keep your lights and get CO2/excel and dose nutrients.


I threw in the t12 and it's been working for now, I'm just going to use it as a temporary solution while I look for a fairly priced 2 bulb t8 fixture.

I dosed a bit of ferts, nitrate has been around 20ppm


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

One of these Coralife T5NO fixtures would be plenty of light for your low tech setup:

http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsU...7/cl0/coralifefwt5aqualightdoublestriplight48


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## robertw (Feb 11, 2010)

With the new bulb things have stabilized. I have been dosing with ferts, and I haven't had anymore plant decay. I might buy some excel as well.


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