# HELP! Can an overdose of Chelated Iron harm fish or inverts?



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I dosed my first round of dry chelated iron (premixed with water), and I don't know if I got something wrong, but the water is YELLOW!

While I'll look into my dosage for next time, I'd like to know if it is possible for an overdose of Chelated Iron to cause harm to fish or inverts? I don't know if it's just a cosmetic issue or something harmful. If it's harmful, then I need to know it and start doing water changes immediately.


----------



## lopez_316us (Jan 25, 2008)

I followed your dising regimen and my water turn yellow too. It goes away in a few hours. It's been two weeks since I started and no problems yet.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Whew! Thank you! I didn't think I had overdosed it, but I was not expecting the water to turn yellow like that. So I thought it was best I check on what an overdose might do just in case.

I'm going to see how this works on the plants, but I may cut my dosing in half. I guess I'll wait and see how this turns out. At least I know I didn't just poison all my fish!

Lopez, since you've been using it for a couple of weeks, have you seen any benefits in your plants?


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

yes, overdosed micros can kill... The first to go are the inverts and then the fish..

Your tank water shouldn't be a color, that's bad.


----------



## jargonchipmunk (Dec 8, 2008)

how much are you dosing? that would help in figuring out if it's too much. Chelated iron goes a LONG way.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

mistergreen said:


> yes, overdosed micros can kill... The first to go are the inverts and then the fish..
> 
> Your tank water shouldn't be a color, that's bad.


And I have 55 amanos in my 75g tank.  So far, they seem to be behaving normally, but that doesn't guarantee that they're okay.



jargonchipmunk said:


> how much are you dosing? that would help in figuring out if it's too much. Chelated iron goes a LONG way.


Oh, wow, I have a whole thread on the subject.

How do you dose Chelated Iron into a tank?

Epic said that 5 grams of the powder is approximately 1 teaspoon.

And then read posts 14 and 15 in that thread. Here's a link to post 14.

So for my 75g tank, I mixed 9 teaspoons of chelated iron with water to make a 12oz solution. Then I dosed 1oz of that solution into the tank this morning.

That means I dosed 1/12th of the 9 teaspoons or 9/12 which comes to 3/4 tsp. If 1 tsp of dry powder is about 5 grams, then 3/4th of that would be about 3.75 grams of dry powder.

So, with basic rounding at play, I put in approximately 3.75 grams of chelated iron into my 75g tank this morning.


----------



## jargonchipmunk (Dec 8, 2008)

3/4tsp in one pop?

I'm at work and too tired to do more math but something about that sounds way too high for chelated iron dosing. I'm not saying it's dangerous per say, or is going to kill your fish or cause algae to come a' runnin, but I do think it's a waste of ferts. (if my tired, workloaded brain isn't just way off)


----------



## jargonchipmunk (Dec 8, 2008)

you should be somewhere closer to like 1/16t not 3/4.


----------



## Minsc (Jul 9, 2006)

Check your math again. 9 teaspoons separated into 12 doses= 3/4tsp per dose. Assuming the iron is 10%, that gives you 1.16 ppm per dose according to the fertilator at APC. That amount is certainly higher than it needs to be, but doesn't sound outrageous either.

The recommended dosage for iron is .1 ppm, but I find much better results around .5.

Do you dose other micros as well, Flourish or CSM?


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Oh, no!

I dosed Plantex CSM + B with the iron this morning.

Quick, how much water do I need to change out? BOTH of my tanks were dosed with this much iron this morning.

50%, 90%, how much water! I need to do this quickly as I'm about to leave!


----------



## Minsc (Jul 9, 2006)

I've never heard of excess iron harming anything.
Do the fish/shrimp seem stressed?


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Python's draining the 75g right now. Just need to know how large of a wc to do. I'll start with a 50%, but will do more if those thinking straight can tell me how much more. I'm in panic mode at the moment so I can't think straight.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Minsc said:


> I've never heard of excess iron harming anything.
> Do the fish/shrimp seem stressed?


They're not gasping or anything. Just swimming around a lot. But I have an active tank so the fish swim around a lot most of the time. The amanos will swarm sometimes, but not too bad right now.

So I guess the answer is no, the fish do not appear stressed.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I'm still doing a water change. Fresh, clean water never hurts anything.


----------



## Minsc (Jul 9, 2006)

Complexity said:


> I'm still doing a water change. Fresh, clean water never hurts anything.


Very true


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

I actually posted that each teaspoon = ~4.4grams.

You dosed 9/12 teaspoons, or 3.3 grams.

Using the Fertilator, http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilator.php:

3.3 grams of chelated 10% Fe in a 75 gallon tank yields 1.16ppm...like Minsc stated earlier.

Doing a 50% WC will drop the ppm in half to more normal levels.


----------



## jinx© (Oct 17, 2007)

I would think a 50% water change should get you back in a safe zone. 

I've been curious as well as to what's a proper amount to dose some extra iron using the 10% chelated type in conjunction with CSM + B.
I dry dose all my ferts per EI method, and have never really seen a clear suggested measurement (as in tsp measurements) for dry dosing %10 chelated iron.


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

jinx© said:


> I would think a 50% water change should get you back in a safe zone.
> 
> I've been curious as well as to what's proper amount to dose some extra iron using the 10% chelated type in conjunction with CSM + B.
> I dry dose all my ferts per EI method, and have never really seen a clear suggested measurement (as in tsp measurements) for dry dosing %10 chelated iron.


Since CSM+B contains ~6% chelated iron already, you have to recognize any iron deficiencies and dose accordingly. The iron dosage is already included in the micros (CSM+B) with EI dosing. But if you feel you have an iron deficiency, trial and error is probably the best way to determine appropriate dosing levels for your tank. Again, EI stands for Estimative Index which, like the name implies, is only an estimate of what's required for a range of tank sizes.


----------



## jinx© (Oct 17, 2007)

epicfish said:


> Since CSM+B contains ~6% chelated iron already, you have to recognize any iron deficiencies and dose accordingly. The iron dosage is already included in the micros (CSM+B) with EI dosing. But if you feel you have an iron deficiency, trial and error is probably the best way to determine appropriate dosing levels for your tank. Again, EI stands for Estimative Index which, like the name implies, is only an estimate of what's required for a range of tank sizes.


I understand the principles of EI dosing, and that CSM+B contains %6 chelated iron. 
It's not deficiencies that I'm referring to, or that I'm troubled about. I'm fine in that department.

My comment is geared more towards comments and recommendations of dosing extra iron for redder plants but never seeing a clear measurement for the amount of extra iron they're dosing when making these claims.

I should have been clearer on the previous post.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Both tanks have 50% water changed. At least the water isn't yellow anymore. It feels a little better now. Several fish are trying to entice a mate into spawning so I guess that's a definite sign they're not stressed.

As far as how much to dose, I'll double check the fertilater again, but if I remember right, it was something you downloaded and ran on a PC. I have a Mac. But maybe I'm wrong.

My adrenaline was pumping because the thought of losing all my fish flashed before my eyes so now I'm trying to come down from the chemical rush. I'd be devastated if I lost all of my fish and inverts!


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

jinx© said:


> ...recommendations of dosing extra iron for redder plants but never seeing a clear measurement for the amount of extra iron they're dosing when making these claims.


Or in my case, I was seeing an iron deficiency and wanted to add extra iron. I used up the Flourish iron that I had and thought I'd switch to powder. But then no one could give me an idea of how much to dose. So I tried to figure it out in that other thread I had started.

I honestly have no idea how much to put in. Obviously. If I just had a basic idea, I could at least start from there and dose more or less, depending on the results. But I didn't know if 1/32 of a tsp or 1 tbsp was considered a decent starting point.

When I calm down, I need to edit my post where I did my calculations. No one caught my mistake, and I know of at least two people who seem to be following it. So that's my mistake multiplying to others now. Not good.

Just in this thread alone, I have one person suggesting that 1/16 tsp is about right while another is saying that my calculations aren't that far off from the fertilator. So I'm really confused.

I will tell you this... it's either my imagination or some of my plants are actually much redder than they were yesterday. Could iron change the color that fast? I didn't even know iron was supposed to help with the red color. I was trying to deal with plants with pale leaves and green veins which I believe is due to a lack of iron.

At this point, having done a 50% water change, it's similar to having dosed 1/2 of what I dosed this morning. So maybe I should only use 1/4oz (1/4th of my original dose) and see what that does. If it's good, then that's my dosage. If not, then I can raise it. So it'll be pretty much a trial and error sort of thing for me.


----------



## jargonchipmunk (Dec 8, 2008)

chelated iron doesn't stay in the water column for long at all. yes, certain plants (especially fast growing stems) can show changes very quickly. I'm guessing that half of that is an actual change in color and the other half is your "chemical rush" in your brain you were talking about haha. 

Honestly, you'd have to have snapped pics before and after to really be able to tell. My mind plays tricks on me all the time about certain plants' colors. That's why I like having a journal with too many pics in it. ;-)

Basically, tune down the dosing you did today by about 1/4 or so. start with 1/16 or 1/8 at most and if you still see deficiencies after a few weeks go up by 16ths until you reach what you believe to be optimal levels. Keep in mind, however that plants not being as red as you want is not a deficiency in a lot of cases and there are a lot of factors involved. (I'm sure you already knew that part, but I didn't want to tell you to keep upping your dose if that's why you were dosing)


----------



## jargonchipmunk (Dec 8, 2008)

also about the math... I can see how it could go wrong. move the decimal over in one place in the final calculation and you have the correct levels (~0.1%) instead of the actual levels you were dosing (over 1%)

I'm horrible at math and had to get out the calculator, make a spreadsheet and sit in front of the fertilator for days worth of spare time at work to not feel like I was making some sort of doomsday device to kill my fish with lol.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I wasn't dosing for the red color, but I wouldn't mind if it helped! I adore reds in the tank!

I was thinking of doing pretty much what you suggested so I'll go from there. At least I think I got a starting point even if it wasn't exactly figured out the way I had wanted. :icon_lol:


----------



## jargonchipmunk (Dec 8, 2008)

haha yeah. when I was a kid I figured out I couldn't fly. It wasn't the way I wanted to figure it out... but I learned! lol

if it makes you feel any better I also recently figured out one of the many reasons people harp on and on about using check valves in Co2 lines  about 5 gallons of water into the downstairs neighbor's kitchen later I understood!


----------



## jinx© (Oct 17, 2007)

I followed your other thread where you asked about iron dosing, as well as another thread or three on the topic, but like you said there wasn't a lot clear cut information per say.

Like you, I just wasn't sure of a good starting point basically. I know there's probably no universally correct answer as there's a lot of variables involved between tank A and tank B etc., but I was thinking just a ballpark dry measurement to start with in the EI scenario of things.


----------



## ColeMan (Mar 9, 2008)

The sticky on EI (done by wolf) seems easy enough to understand: 1tbsp. per 250mL water. I mix mine in an empty 250mL excel or prime bottle and dose with a syringe used for dispensing liquid meds I got at the drug store. They even have adapter lids that allow easy access to the solution when it gets low, all for just a couple of dollars....


----------



## jinx© (Oct 17, 2007)

I've seen that one, but like I said earlier, I was referring to a measurement for dry dosing every other day with CSM+B rather than a premixed solution.

I may end up going the premix solution route as I have everything needed to do so, but still curious on the dry dose. More so, I'm just curious as to how much some members may be using in their own setups.


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

your inverts are great indicator if you added something bad..
the shrimps will swim in a corkscrew manner and then dive onto the substrate, basically, not normally how they swim.. They'll do this for about 10 minutes and then they'll die... geeee, I wonder how I know that.. ahemmmmm, *cough.


----------



## ColeMan (Mar 9, 2008)

jinx© said:


> I've seen that one, but like I said earlier, I was referring to a measurement for dry dosing every other day with CSM+B rather than a premixed solution.
> 
> I may end up going the premix solution route as I have everything needed to do so, but still curious on the dry dose. More so, I'm just curious as to how much some members may be using in their own setups.


Right, right. I can relate, but I have to admit that rather than battle the numbers for determining dry dosage amounts, I kinda caved and took the "easy way out." As you mentioned, it seems like information is scarce, so my assumption was that most who dose iron dose it as a pre-mixed solution. 

I too am curious about how other members add additional iron to their tank (ie iron in addition to that typically included in micros), so I'm hopeful some folks may one day divulge their iron dosing routines. :icon_smil


----------



## crabcake (Dec 19, 2007)

i think that chelated Fe does create some extra stress for fish. i have a number of breeder tanks with numerous fish in them and some also contain plants, which respond well to Fe dosing. water params are usually pretty good in these tanks, but they have a lot of fish in them. more than once i have found just one or two dead fish the next day after dosing iron at recommended concentrations. 

i have guessed that these fish were probably of compromised health already, but the extra Fe was enough extra stress to do them in.


----------



## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

I've experienced clouding on the day I dose which others have said here I shouldn't but no livestock issues to date. The water usually clears in a couple hours.


----------



## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

so whats the right amount of 10 % chelated iron powder to dose per gallon? anyone have any idea.
i have some myrio that addores iron, whenever i add flourish it gets the nicest reddest colors ever but if i can get the same effect with dry ferts then it would be easier. 

how do the plants look now vicky? did it have a good effect or bad?


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Enough time has now passed for me to feel certain of the results of my iron overdose. And the results are...

All fish are fine.
All inverts are fine.
All plants are fine.
All my nerves are recovering. 

It seems pretty clear that most people are in the same place I am in not knowing where to even begin dosing dry chelated iron. At least my experience has given me _some_ form of measurement towards the equation. What I dosed is too much. Now how much between none and the amount I dosed would be considered a good, general amount to dose, I have no idea! But I'll try to figure it out at least for my tanks.

My dosage was based on 1/10 (or 0.10) of a teaspoon per 10 gallons. So I think I'll dilute it down to 1/30 (or 0.03) of a teaspoon (to dose 1/3 of what I originally dosed). I'll give that a try and see what happens. If nothing else, I can always do a water change. But if everything survived my original dosing amount, then I should be okay to experiment with a lower amount even if it's not considered an ideal amount.

Or I could just close my eyes and throw a dart. Might be more accurate! :hihi:

Thanks to you all for offering help when I was panicking. It's helpful when you don't have to go through these things alone!


----------



## Dmaaaaax (Feb 3, 2009)

I replied in your other thread and my calculations came to just under 1/8tsp dry dose per 80g of water is around 0.1ppm. I have been dosing 1/8tsp dry in my 75g tank without any problems. I assume this is around 60g of water so my dosing is just over ~0.13ppm.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

So if I cut my current dosage of 3/4tsp per 75g water by 1/4, I'll end up with 3/16th which is just under 1/4th. So 1/8th for 60g makes 1/4 for 75g sound about right.

I'll give that a try and see what happens. I'm really surprised that so few people out there have concrete measurements in tsps like you do. I appreciate your help!

I actually do have an iron test kit, but I have never used it. Maybe I should run some tests just for grins to see what levels I'm getting. I had heard that the test kits weren't very accurate, but since I have it, why not?


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I dose Fe/TE at high levels, I've never seen any evidence it hurts inverts and certainly not fish.

I'm not sure why the Fear Mongering crowd runs around telling everyone in the hobby it's bad, kills shrimp, fish, causes algae and promotes a myth. There's just no specific evidence. Some guy has some correlation and automatically thinks it must be that causing their problem, yet 10 other folks do the sme treatment that he/she suspected........and the fish/shrimp are fine.

That guy claiming they died due to hgh Fe etc, CANNOT be correct in and of itself for Fe/TE etc. The treatment was done by several others and had no effect. If no effect effect is observed with suspected toxicants with several folks over time, you likely never had an independent test measuring the Fe/TE, some other factor caused th deaths of the critters/algae bloom.
The other folk's had an independent test and did the same suspected treatment,m yet had no deaths.

You both cannot be right. They did thesame treatment and had very different results. For the TE/Fe suspect killing the shrimp or fish, you ***must test the hypothesis that says=> high(choose a ppm) Fe/TE will kill shrimp or fish. 

If that does not kill any shrimp, fish etc, then you must reject that hypohtesis. You tested it and is was shown to be false.

The results show this. This is not suspected, this is not just correlation, or speculation, you are not going to weasle around this with semantic and trying to ask other questions..........these are the results. Accept and move on to the next suspected reason that the shrimp might be dying etc.

It has to be something else other than TE/Fe etc.

This topic has come up 150X in 15 years on every board and forum and mailing list, and the same old tired claims appear every single time. 
Few bother to test, those that do generally find no effect.

But, we get one whining who runs around screaming on every board that will listen how it must be true that all their shrimp died due to TE/Fe. Then they cite the same old tired myths that have been up for some years/decades as evidence to support their claim.

Curiously, they have little more than a passing comment as to why my or other folks who add high TE/Fe have shrimp and fish that are fine, breed and grow and look healthy. Generally " I don't know why your shrimp are not dead, mine are"....then they take the rest personally or try and say the shrimp/fish you have are special, or you are doing something etc, never accepting the possibilty they might have been doing something else they overlooked that is causing the issue.

It's called denial:thumbsup:

I've added what many assumed to be high Fe for 20+ years. Fish bred, shrimp breed, no losses, large healthy fat fish, shrimp no algae etc.

Not just once, everytime.

People kill shrimp and fish for 1001 reasons, even without plants or dosing nutrients. What's the likelyhood it's some other of those 1001 reasons vs the TE/Fe? I'd say a few thousand to 1 at best.

How dare someone question my long held myth?:redface:

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I've added up to 1ppm of FE without any issues.
I've also added 200mls of SeaChem and 100mls of TMG to 75 liters for 1 week without any effect, well...........other than yellow water

No algae, no shrimp issues(Amano), fish issues(Soft water species), stunted plants etc.

This is about 20-40X the daily dosing level for a high light CO2 enriched EI dosed tank.

So there are some numbers for acute toxicity, which does not seem to exist at least at these concentration doses.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## jargonchipmunk (Dec 8, 2008)

Tom Barr you are completely wrong!

I can prove that there is an adverse effect using 1ppm dosing of Fe in my tanks versus using .1ppm

It costs ten times the money in wasted Iron! 


Tom, you speculated but never TESTED my wallet! 

(kidding of course. thanks for all of your rants, they're always.... informative


----------



## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*high doses of Fe*

Pleased to see Tom Barr saw this thread! In reading it on the 19th I just couldn't locate the article he had published regarding higher dose rates. (probably more than one) I knew I had read he maintained huge doses of iron without issue but couldn't search my way around back to it. With the ensuing panic and suggestions of large water changes I tried to find it without success, also assumed without locating it that a post of "I read somewhere that high iron levels won't hurt anything" wouldn't help. 

Again just glad Tom Barr saw it and injected his wisdom / experience. 
People like him make having the internet,,, priceless


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

wkndracer said:


> Pleased to see Tom Barr saw this thread! In reading it on the 19th I just couldn't locate the article he had published regarding higher dose rates. (probably more than one) I knew I had read he maintained huge doses of iron without issue but couldn't search my way around back to it. With the ensuing panic and suggestions of large water changes I tried to find it without success, also assumed without locating it that a post of "I read somewhere that high iron levels won't hurt anything" wouldn't help.
> 
> Again just glad Tom Barr saw it and injected his wisdom / experience.
> People like him make having the internet,,, priceless


The only wisdom was the mistake I made, then realized that no adverse effects occurred. Plenty of hobbyists do this type of thing with out any purpose, but can watch and make sure once they do make a mistake, some can do it on purpose this time and watch closer just to double check to ensure there's no risk.

Then keep doing it over time, watch plants etc as well.
Then after a fairly long time frame, many aquariums, you look and see what research also suggeest any similar observation, if they match, then you have a prettty good case against beating the myth into it's last death throes.

Now some folks do not like to be told that their long held and cherish advice and myth is not correct, so expect some resistance

If you make a mistake and it's found not to be true, let the wrong assumption go......correct things and move on. 

That's how you learn.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

And on this note to make a CSM+B/ Iron mix using Toms guidelines is 4:1:1 I mix in a 500ml bottle. This is for softer water, Tom has another ratio for harder water in the Ferrous Gluctonate thread in the Fertilizer sub forum...

500ml Water

2 tbsp CSM+B
.5 tbsp Chleated Iron
.5 tbsp Ferrous Gluconate


----------

