# What should I add to my sand to make it richer?



## Danh Vu (Jul 3, 2010)

Why not just root tabs?


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## notoriouslyKEN (May 3, 2006)

I use root tabs now, but I am getting some heavy rooted plants and I think I need more substrate to hold them down. If I am adding substrate why not add something nutritious, right?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I've started using Miracle Gro Organic potting soil in my tanks and like it quite a bit. That would be a cheap, easy alternative for you. 1-2" of Miracle Gro capped with an inch of sand (or whatever else) works well.

Here's a pic of mine under Flourite (mix) in my 90gal: 









In my 46gal you can't see the layers through the glass since I first edged the tank with my Flourite mix before adding in the Miracle Gro, so that's an option if you don't like the look. Some of the Miracle Gro will eventually mix in with the cap layer, though.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Use egg crate grill material to eliminate gravel creep along the glass.
two years and no creep of the soil to the glass,



















:biggrin:


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## Nue (Dec 27, 2009)

a huge +1 on organic potting soil


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## notoriouslyKEN (May 3, 2006)

Well, I have peat moss at my house now, but I think I will go out an buy a bag of top soil instead. That seems to be the best possible addition to my tank. Can I just mix it in? Or should I only put it beneath the sand?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If you use too much peat it can turn your tank into tea and crash the pH and kH. 

I'd be very leery of using "raw" topsoil. Topsoil can vary greatly in actual composition. Some may be safe, but others may cause water parameter issues. I'd personally test some in a bucket for a few weeks to be sure.


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## Nue (Dec 27, 2009)

you would want to put it under the sand. 

As what laura said, trust it. I didn't get the right kind of top soil and it never mineralized properly, and I had really bad issues. 

As for Miricale Grow Organic Potting Soil, it wont cost more then 5$ I also


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## Zareth (Dec 13, 2010)

Capping it is a must for non-mineralized soils in a fish tank. There will be far too much nutrients floating around the tank for plants to use if it isn't capped.
edit: its basically a must for mineralized soil too


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## takadi (Dec 13, 2010)

If you want to add mts to your existing gravel, do you have to dig up the whole thing or can you just allow the soil to sink to the bottom?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

takadi said:


> If you want to add mts to your existing gravel, do you have to dig up the whole thing or can you just allow the soil to sink to the bottom?


There is a really good procedure for assembling the mineralized soil on GWAPS website- the link is in the mineralized sticky thread. You really need to plan to break down the entire tank to replace the whole substrate if you want to go this direction.


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## Aubzilla (Mar 2, 2008)

Would you say that potting soil is pretty equal to mineralized top soil?


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Aubzilla said:


> Would you say that potting soil is pretty equal to mineralized top soil?


Mine lasted longer than MTS.


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## Zareth (Dec 13, 2010)

wkndracer said:


> Mine lasted longer than MTS.


MTS is supposed to last longer whereas regular potting soil might provide faster growth.


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## notoriouslyKEN (May 3, 2006)

Now I am a little confused. If I buy a bag of the miracle grow organic potting soil, will I have to 'mineralize' it? If so, is there a how to on the site? I plan on removing all of the plants and fish from my tank and 80%-90% of the water. Then I was going to move the sand to one side, add soil, move sand on top of soil and repeat on other side. Is this a good idea?


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Zareth said:


> MTS is supposed to last longer whereas regular potting soil might provide faster growth.



Backwards on that. Think about what your saying here.
Until the bacteria break down all the organics the nutrients aren't available to the plants. MTS is right here right now ready.


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## Aubzilla (Mar 2, 2008)

notoriouslyKEN said:


> Now I am a little confused. If I buy a bag of the miracle grow organic potting soil, will I have to 'mineralize' it? If so, is there a how to on the site? I plan on removing all of the plants and fish from my tank and 80%-90% of the water. Then I was going to move the sand to one side, add soil, move sand on top of soil and repeat on other side. Is this a good idea?


No, you won't have to mineralize the potting soil. Using potting soil is a different technique then using mineralized top soil. There is a sticky on how to make MTS in this forum.

As for your plan on how to add it, I'm not sure I'd do that. There will be layers of detritus in your sand that you will be mixing up and that can make quite a mess. If I was doing what you are(adding a nutrient layer to existing substrate), I would take out the sand and rinse it a bit with clean tank water to get a majority of the gunk out. Then I'd put in about 1.5-2 inches of front and side baffles(so that you don't see the nutrient substrate). Next put in the damped soil till its about flush with the baffles. Then cap it all with about an inch of sand.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

There is a danger with using straight potting soil you should be aware of.
It can turn anaerobic and turn you tank into a swamp 

And releases lots of NH4 and causes algae. Potting mix isn't a standard mix so it might be fine for somebody but not for others.

You have a lesser chance with MTS.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

The Miracle Gro Organic choice potting soil is fine straight out of the bag. I don't think you could turn it into mineralized soil, as it's mostly wood & peat-based.

I just put mine in the tank (I laid down a layer of mulm from the old tank underneath), drizzled enough water over it to help waterlog it (so it would stay in place) and capped it with my Flourite.

Filled the tank, set my filters back up, added my fish, and done. Did everything all in the same day. 

The water was milky for a few days, I figured there was a bacteria bloom, but I didn't observe any ammonia or nitrite spikes so the mulm and my established filters were sufficient to take care of it if the soil did release any ammonia at all...

Other potting soils I cannot speak for. I definitely would not do this with a non-organic soil.

And I expect MTS should provide a longer nutrient supply than the Miracle Gro. There are more slow release nutrients created with the mineralization process. Time will tell, though...


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## Zareth (Dec 13, 2010)

wkndracer said:


> Backwards on that. Think about what your saying here.
> Until the bacteria break down all the organics the nutrients aren't available to the plants. MTS is right here right now ready.


In MTS the bacteria break it down to non-organics before it goes in the tank - which means a steady supply of nutrients to the plants.
In regular potting soil the nutrients are all immediately available in quantities greater than can be used - it is the same thing as over fertilizing, you get algae out the wazoo which quickly eat up the excess nutrients and the longevity of the soil is far less.
What mistergreen said is correct


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## takadi (Dec 13, 2010)

Well potting soil is straight up organics while MTS consists of inorganic minerals like sand silt and clay, the last which has high CEC. MTS would definitely provide a more steady rate of fertilization


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

mistergreen said:


> There is a danger with using straight potting soil you should be aware of.
> It can turn anaerobic and turn you tank into a swamp
> And releases lots of NH4 and causes algae. Potting mix isn't a standard mix so it might be fine for somebody but not for others.
> 
> You have a lesser chance with MTS.


All true.
Very true, and additional concerns because so much can be living in the 'live' dirt that can't survive once submerged. Several folks have felt better baking it before using it just to kill whatever might be in it. 
The risk of anaerobic conditions exist with any substrate to a degree. It's simply a technical word which literally means no O2. Without any oxygen in the substrate problems follow. The release of NH4 in huge amounts could be caused by prior chemical treatments applied to the soil, no doubt a factor to consider. Ammonia can also be released in large amounts by the massive bacteria colony that exists chewing through the submerged organics without it going anaerobic. Redox consideration is a more important concern (imo).
While I suggest Miracle Gro Organic Choice Potting Soil (that's what I use). You can't buy it and simply 'trust' the contents. From one geographic location to another, one plants bagging cycle to the next, one annual season to the next. Is it made in the same place, with the same stuff, combined in metered amount? No. It's not that detailed a process. It has no man made component added. Just bagged material without the addition of fertilizer salts or chemical binder compounds to hold water or anything else being added. 

Putting any soil in a jar, adding water and seeing what it contains and releases is a first step for anyone considering this method. Admitting to owning (and reading (several times)) D. Walstad's book at this point.

But rather than falling back on it, and simply referring to her published work stating page and paragraph quotes I try to post to what I've experienced with my tanks in house as to what I see and feel works.
At this point in my experiences my opinion is;
Nothing is fast, cheap and instantly 100% safe, you can't have all three. 
Being careful you can have two. 
Set up a tank with all the purpose specific products offered by the aquarium trade and it can be done safely 99.9% of the time but never cheaply. 

Grab a bag of dirt and you have cheap but you also have an unknown. No fast setup here unless your willing to accept and ignore that unknown. 


lauraleellbp said:


> And I expect MTS should provide a longer nutrient supply than the Miracle Gro. *There are more slow release nutrients created with the mineralization process.* Time will tell, though...


What exactly is this component of the MTS process plz? Mineralization is the breakdown of all the organic materials back to mineral form (correct me please if I'm wrong)? Where is the binder creating slowed release of nutrients when using MTS in the aquarium? Once mineralization of the soil is completed the nutrients are readily available to the plants for easy uptake. I've read that statement in every thread on this process I've seen posted.



Zareth said:


> In MTS the bacteria break it down to non-organics before it goes in the tank - which means a steady supply of nutrients to the plants.


 OK, this bacterial break down of organics prior to using the soil in the aquarium makes the nutrients a steady supply of nutrients to the plants -or- _a readily available supply_?


Zareth said:


> In regular potting soil the nutrients are all immediately available in quantities greater than can be used - it is the same thing as over fertilizing.


Aaahhh! this is making my head hurt! If MTS breaks down the binding organics how is it more available while bound in organic compounds? I'm so confused reading this! Can a plant be grown in a bedding of leaves and sticks alone? No! But once the leaves and sticks rot and become minerals again gitty up! the plants grow. How nutrients are all immediately available I haven't a clue.


Zareth said:


> you get algae out the wazoo which quickly eat up the excess nutrients and the longevity of the soil is far less.


'Algae out the wazoo' 
New tank syndrome? Algae boom? Chemical imbalance's that only happen in tanks with natural soils? -or- are you posting a high percentage of natural soil tanks do this? If the latter, reading the many posted threads here and on APC this is not the normal experience reported by those that follow this method properly.


Zareth said:


> What mistergreen said is correct


I can't seem to read this posted in that information. I read it as possibly several things may happen. *
'Potting mix isn't a standard mix' *is the important information I understood to be conveyed by Mr. Green


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

wkndracer said:


> What exactly is this component of the MTS process plz? Mineralization is the breakdown of all the organic materials back to mineral form (correct me please if I'm wrong)? Where is the binder creating slowed release of nutrients when using MTS in the aquarium? Once mineralization of the soil is completed the nutrients are readily available to the plants for easy uptake. I've read that statement in every thread on this process I've seen posted.


My understanding is the mineralization process makes the nutrients less soluable in water, so they are not removed during water changes or pulled out of the water column by chemical media such as Purigen- instead, they remain down in the substrate even when the substrate is disturbed. In addition, you add in the other slow-release nutrient ingredients (potash, dolomite, etc) and use clay as a binder/flocculant. 

Sean and Aaron have had their MTS tanks going for years with very little water column dosing needed. I am not expecting my Miracle Gro tanks to last that long without needing supplementation. I know with terrestrials, I'd expect to need to repot or start fertilizing at least once or twice a year using the Miracle Gro- though like I said, time will tell as I just started using it in my tanks a few months ago.

I rather expect that the Miracle Gro alone will not prove to be as "complete" a substrate as the MTS.


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## Zareth (Dec 13, 2010)

wkndracer said:


> What exactly is this component of the MTS process plz? Mineralization is the breakdown of all the organic materials back to mineral form (correct me please if I'm wrong)? Where is the binder creating slowed release of nutrients when using MTS in the aquarium? Once mineralization of the soil is completed the nutrients are readily available to the plants for easy uptake. I've read that statement in every thread on this process I've seen posted.


The binder(not really a binder, but the reason it lasts longer) is the form the nutrients are in, the CEC of the mineralized soil, and the fact that in the mineralized version its already gone through the bacterial process. 
If you put whatever bacteria eat in your tank, it will find its way into the water column, and bacteria, which will be in no specific and planned location, will be converting it. This means where the bacteria are the, the byproducts are - *in the water column, on your glass, in the soil, on plants, in your filter. *Now you do a water change and its all gone. 
If you have already done the bacterial stage outside of the tank, you put the soil in and voila, you've got all your nutrients in your soil capped by some inert thing like flourite, some will naturally leach out of the soil, but the difference is its not being synthesized by bacteria all around the system. 



> OK, this bacterial break down of organics prior to using the soil in the aquarium makes the nutrients a *steady supply of nutrients to the plants -or- a readily available supply? *


Are you being smarmy or is that a genuine question? Both of those things are the same as far as I'm concerned. The nutrients are readily available, in their final form, in the substrate, not to be bothered by bacteria and barely available to algae which wont want to grow underground and will only use what leaches into the water column, and thus also a steady supply because they wont be going anywhere. 


> Aaahhh! this is making my head hurt! If MTS breaks down the binding organics how is it more available while bound in organic compounds? I'm so confused reading this! Can a plant be grown in a bedding of leaves and sticks alone? No! But once the leaves and sticks rot and become minerals again gitty up! the plants grow. How nutrients are all immediately available I haven't a clue.


You keep saying binding organics... The nutrients are bound in an organic state, like fish poo. After bacteria eat them they are a chemical, they are no longer organic, that's all there is to it. 
A plant cant grow on a bedding of leaves and sticks. It can grow at a decent rate on a currently decomposing pile of leaves and sticks. And it can grow at the best rate if that pile of leaves and sticks has already decomposed fully.

In both MTS and non-MTS there are nutrients immediately available, its the form they are in that's different, and that affects longevity and availability to algae and bacteria.


> 'Algae out the wazoo'
> New tank syndrome? Algae boom? Chemical imbalance's that only happen in tanks with natural soils? -or- are you posting a high percentage of natural soil tanks do this? If the latter, reading the many posted threads here and on APC this is not the normal experience reported by those that follow this method properly.


I don't want to get into algae, see "its just like over fertilizing"


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Thanks for the reply lauraleellbp, The additional components you list adding to the base when setting up the MTS no doubt changes the discussion. The topic of which would last longer between MTS (soil only) and a natural soil tank would be an apples to apples comparison. Completely different nutrient parameters adding the slow-release nutrient ingredients potash, dolomite and the use of clay. That would indeed make a difference. Then again nothing I've read so far says they couldn't be added under the natural soil  

Contained under the capping material with next to no circulation of water through the substrate I can't really see a way to validate the water column losses. (studies I've read say not but so what) Even with heating cables circulation is minimal. I've read the published studies on cation binding to soil particles and characteristics of soils and sediments. Redox and the effects of pH. Walstad over and again in her book explains how the organic matter, mineral particles and precipitated inorganic matter are contained in the submerged soil. I use Flourite original as my primary capping material. With the reported CEC of that stuff combined with the chemical process of decay and binding in humus again makes it hard to imagine a free pass to the water column. 

It's funny that I was just blasted in another thread for saying my Walstad method tank was falling short of the plant demands after 2yrs. wet. Told I should be seeing 10-12yrs. outta the system only adding water to make up for evaporation or that I should be dumping more fish food into the tank to correct the deficit. Probably keeping the wrong plants too. It's a hoot whichever way I look at it. 

Losses to the water column based on the published works I've read really seems questionable. The substrate section of that woman's book covers the benefits in great detail.

Makes for a good topic though :icon_redf

The exchange between Tom Barr and Aaron along with others made a good read awhile back, a great debate for the most part with many good points.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

A big part of making the MTS substrate is collecting and mixing in all those additives; as I believe you pointed out earlier, just the soil alone otherwise would be completely unpredictable in terms of nutrient content from soil to soil.

I'm really basing my estimates of longevity on the Miracle Gro on how quickly I do know it's exhausted with terrestrial plants (I use it frequently in container gardens)... My aquatic plants don't grow at nearly the same rate since I keep all low tech plants (nor are my aquatic plants flowering), but I still will be somewhat surprised if I haven't run into any nutrient deficiences at all in my tanks before this time next year... Since I don't ever dose my water columns, it should be relatively easy for me to tell.

I considered supplementing the Miracle Gro with the same additives I used for my MTS, but never got around to getting some more- I figure I'll just use my fert tabs.

As far as nutrients getting stirred up/leeching into the water column, I don't find that a big stretch at all. The only time I ever had a massive green water outbreak was shortly after a big rescape where I did not do a big water change immediately afterwards. I think it makes perfect sense that when all the organic matter that falls into substrate gets stirred up and exposed to light and more O2 in the water column, that the decomp kicks in at a higher rate.

The issue I have with NPTs is that you start off with the goal of not doing water changes, and then have to jump through various specific hoops in order to achieve that goal. It's not a goal that I relate to in the first place (coming from a "best practice husbandry" background), so the rest doesn't necessarily fall in line with me, anyways...


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Doing a rescape MTS or NPT your going to be pulling the stuff up. At least I do when using either method. Removing an overshadowing amazon sword from my 110g MTS it created the same problem you've reported. Now the plant and root ball are removed after using scissors around the base to cut away the root runners. Just don't see that as the same as buried under the cap and leaching until depleted. Something stirring things up, disrupting the tank is another matter. 
You might be pleasantly surprised by your results Bacopa flowered numerous times for over a year in my 55g. I placed egg crate along the back of the tank to allow the plants above the waterline and it worked very well. Reduced dosing and maintenance was my goal trying the method and it worked well enough. Monitoring TDS along with the other parameters water changes are done when ever needed here but I do enjoy not fussing with water column dosing only adding CSM+B weekly. Enriched substrate whatever the method is the way to go (imo).


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## Zareth (Dec 13, 2010)

Well for me it's all conjecture anyway. It only seems logical MTS would last longer, additives aside. 
You should redo your tank with NPT and add dolomite/potash etc and see how long it lasts this time. 
Though I can't say I'll want to wait several years to hear the results. 



lauraleellbp said:


> As far as nutrients getting stirred up/leeching into the water column, I don't find that a big stretch at all. The only time I ever had a massive green water outbreak was shortly after a big rescape where I did not do a big water change immediately afterwards.* I think it makes perfect sense that when all the organic matter that falls into substrate gets stirred up and exposed to light and more O2 in the water column, that the decomp kicks in at a higher rate.*


I second that.
And I don't see how its hard to believe water soluble nutrients don't get into the water. If loads of beneficial bacteria live in the soil in our tanks then clearly things from the water column are getting into the soil. Why cant the substances in the soil get into the water column? And then be eaten in your filter with the result being an out-of-substrate nutrient factory via bacteria


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

It's pretty clear that some substrates leech nutrients into the water column- the ammonia spike experienced while cycling ADA AS is a prime example.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*withdrawing due to a lack of further interest*



Zareth said:


> Well for me it's all conjecture anyway. It only seems logical MTS would last longer, additives aside.
> You should redo your tank with NPT and add dolomite/potash etc and see how long it lasts this time.
> Though I can't say I'll want to wait several years to hear the results.
> 
> And I don't see how its hard to believe water soluble nutrients don't get into the water. If loads of beneficial bacteria live in the soil in our tanks then clearly things from the water column are getting into the soil. Why cant the substances in the soil get into the water column? And then be eaten in your filter with the result being an out-of-substrate nutrient factory via bacteria


Reading this I feel it must be directed at me. I'm over the debate / exchange with you on the topic as it's crossed several threads already. I attempt to post information to help people as others have to answer my questions now and in the past. Never to my knowledge have I posted simply for the sake of debate. Can bacteria migrate? yes. Do most forms of bacteria travel? no. They form on a surface and multiply in a fixed location. Personal experiences and web postings aside a single published author is the primary basis of my information on soil substrates. 

I suggest you buy the book and finding what you feel are faults or misinformation debate it with the author.
*http://www.amazon.com/Ecology-Planted-Aquarium-Practical-Scientific/dp/0967377315
**Ecology of the Planted Aquarium: A Practical Manual and Scientific Treatise for the Home Aquarist, Second Edition [Hardcover]*



*Diana L. Walstad* (Author) 

*$23.07* & eligible for *FREE Super Saver Shipping*


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## Zareth (Dec 13, 2010)

wkndracer said:


> Reading this I feel it must be directed at me. I'm over the debate / exchange with you on the topic as it's crossed several threads already. I attempt to post information to help people as others have to answer my questions now and in the past. Never to my knowledge have I posted simply for the sake of debate. Can bacteria migrate? yes. Do most forms of bacteria travel? no. They form on a surface and multiply in a fixed location. Personal experiences and web postings aside a single published author is the primary basis of my information on soil substrates.
> 
> I suggest you buy the book and finding what you feel are faults or misinformation debate it with the author.
> *http://www.amazon.com/Ecology-Planted-Aquarium-Practical-Scientific/dp/0967377315
> ...


Don't get offended, if you have proof of something let me know... I haven't read her book and I don't know if she makes any comparisons between natural potting soil and mineralized, if so again, just let me know. I assumed you were just passing along the information you knew, from reading or otherwise. 
Do bacteria actively travel with cilia or flagellum? No, but do they grow where the food source is? Yes. Do chemicals diffuse from high concentration to low concentration? Yes, even more so in a water soluble form. I don't know what the end product of mineralization is and how it disperses in water, but I believe the CEC of MTS has something to do with its nutrients not all dissolving in the water. I assume that in both soils the nutrients are leeched to the water column but I don't know to what extent there is a difference. But everything I've learned thus far as far as physics and chemistry would lead me to believe the Mineralized soil should definitely last longer. 
You had been defending that MTS shouldn't last as long and dismissed that nutrients could leave the capped substrate, and the location the bacteria feed is irrelevant, I simply said I don't know how that's so hard to believe, hoping you would explain why its not a factor.
I'm sorry.


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