# Experiment with "dips" and algae treatments



## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

Nice experiment. To be honest, I've only had luck killing spirogyra using Algaefix. It shrugged off H2O2 and Excel and I'm afraid of killing my mosses with bleach.


----------



## ChemGuyEthan (Apr 13, 2014)

Hmm, I never really considered going with one of the branded algae killers, always seemed like they're a bit overpriced, especially if this could work. Though bleach can't be used directly in the tank...

I'll be doing a little more work experimenting with time-frames with the bleach to kill the algae but not the moss. I mean, it was the only one that worked to kill the algae.


----------



## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

A small bottle of Algaefix should last you a while since you're not gonna be using it every day like Excel. The only negative to Algaefix is that it kills crustaceans. Meaning you shouldn't use it if your spirogyra infested tank contains shrimp, crayfish, or crabs.


----------



## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Would were it me, be afraid that any successful treatment may or may not have negative effect on Fauna if not done as shown by removing affected plant's for treatment, and or in my view worse yet,,the treatment would need to be permanent part of maint routine for once the treatment is stopped,and condition's that brought it in the first place are not corrected,,it will return.
Lot's of folk's out there from what I have seen, that are willing to use all manner of chemical treatment's for stubborn algae with fishes in the tank or no fishes.
If one accept's that too much light,inconsistent CO2 ,poor distribution of CO2 to all area's before it escapes the tank,inconsistent fertz,lean fertz,all cause a perfect inbalance,and that Light intensity drives the demand for all of the above, then they might discover that reducing the light alone often can decrease demand by plant's and also cause algae to retreat permanently.
I am somewhat apprehensive of those who claim to have tried everything while battling algae ,for these folk's often do not want to wait what could be a few week's for algae to disappear after reducing light, increasing CO2 which should be easy with no fishes or critter's in the tank,harrassing the algae daily with tool's for same,increasing fertz rather than limiting measures,general trimming,regular water changes to reduce organic's and or algae spores along with removing protein's.,enzymes that plant's respire which can also feed algae,and the old standby tool of adding more plant's.
These measures take time, but folks want to see immediate result's much the same way they are willing to use all manner of medication's in the treatment of sick fish and wanting immediate result's here as well.
Some folk's are quick to try several thing's all at once while battling algae and or several med's all at once when treating fishes .(Hard to know what did/didn't work)
Algae can almost always be brought under control using less light,and fishes health problem's can nearly always be improved by improving their watery environment.
May not see improvement over night,,but then in most cases ,algae does not appear over night nor do fishes usually become sickly/weak overnight.
My two cent's.


----------



## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

I feel like this thread needs a sticky.


----------



## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Any way to compare these treatments to the 'one-two punch'?
You did a treatment of H2O2 followed by Excel, but how did these doses compare to the 'one-two punch'? (H2O2 @ 2 tablespoons/10 gallons followed by Excel @ loading dose)
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=203684

I can see there was no circulation added. Any way to test this? 

Did you do a water change between H2O2 and Excel? or Excel -> H2O2?


----------



## ChemGuyEthan (Apr 13, 2014)

Monster Fish said:


> A small bottle of Algaefix should last you a while since you're not gonna be using it every day like Excel. The only negative to Algaefix is that it kills crustaceans. Meaning you shouldn't use it if your spirogyra infested tank contains shrimp, crayfish, or crabs.


Yeah, I do have shrimp, but maybe this as a dip and then rinse it would be ok, I'll have to look into it. Thank you for the suggestion!



roadmaster said:


> Would were it me, be afraid that any successful treatment may or may not have negative effect on Fauna if not done as shown by removing affected plant's for treatment, and or in my view worse yet,,the treatment would need to be permanent part of maint routine for once the treatment is stopped,and condition's that brought it in the first place are not corrected,,it will return.
> Lot's of folk's out there from what I have seen, that are willing to use all manner of chemical treatment's for stubborn algae with fishes in the tank or no fishes.
> If one accept's that too much light,inconsistent CO2 ,poor distribution of CO2 to all area's before it escapes the tank,inconsistent fertz,lean fertz,all cause a perfect inbalance,and that Light intensity drives the demand for all of the above, then they might discover that reducing the light alone often can decrease demand by plant's and also cause algae to retreat permanently.
> I am somewhat apprehensive of those who claim to have tried everything while battling algae ,for these folk's often do not want to wait what could be a few week's for algae to disappear after reducing light, increasing CO2 which should be easy with no fishes or critter's in the tank,harrassing the algae daily with tool's for same,increasing fertz rather than limiting measures,general trimming,regular water changes to reduce organic's and or algae spores along with removing protein's.,enzymes that plant's respire which can also feed algae,and the old standby tool of adding more plant's.
> ...


Thank you for the two cents, haha. I couldn't agree more. I have had the same algae in both this tank and my corner tank. I have managed to all but irradicate it from the corner tank by doing exactly what you're saying (cut light, waited a week, bumped the CO2 and circulation a bit, waited a week, adjusted ferts, waited a week). There's certainly a methodical process to getting rid of a stubborn or persistent algae. This smaller tank (my Chi tank) was making a comeback, but apparently it wasn't enough as when I got back from vacation, it was a nightmare... So technically speaking, the problem with this tank was from neglect.

These treatments would likely not be done in-tank (especially the bleach) because the concentrations are too high. I would only advocate something like this for a dip in extreme situations, or perhaps when introducing new plants as is commonly done. But hopefully a nice time-frame can be figured out for dipping the more sensitive plants that often get torched by these treatments.

Personally, if I can figure out a good treatment, then I plan on salvaging the plants from this tank and taking them to a new one. The algae may die on its own when transferring to a healthy tank, but I'd rather not take the chance.



HybridHerp said:


> I feel like this thread needs a sticky.


Haha, maybe let me get some more info and results up before you say that...



Diana said:


> Any way to compare these treatments to the 'one-two punch'?
> You did a treatment of H2O2 followed by Excel, but how did these doses compare to the 'one-two punch'? (H2O2 @ 2 tablespoons/10 gallons followed by Excel @ loading dose)
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=203684
> 
> ...


I can certainly replicate the "one-two punch" method. But I agree there is no circulation in the tupperware like this. Hmm... I would think the point of high circulation in the in-tank method is to ensure that the relatively small quantity of peroxide and excel you add are fully distributed throughout the tank. In a small volume experiment like this, the swirling I do by hand should allow everything to distribute. When I did the peroxide/excel combinations, I did not change the water out. However, it had been quite a while between additions so particularly with the peroxide it wouldn't have been that concentrated anymore.

Thank you for the suggestion!

-------------

So to update: No changes, haha. Everything looks the same as it did on Monday. The bleach sample maybe looks a little greener?... so the moss might be pulling through.

I still want to do some time-dependent bleach dips, the full "one-two punch" treatment, and potentially get my hands on some permanganate just for completeness. I may also try algaefix, we'll see how much time I have.

Thank you all for the responses and I'll continue to keep you updated on the experiments and progress.


----------



## Grumpy1415 (Oct 15, 2013)

Great thread. Thanks for doing these experiments. I was able to grab some Jungle Clear Water (potassium permanganate) in the fish section at my local Walmart...may be an easy source for you to get your hands on a small amount as well.


----------



## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

Not to sound too redundant but algaefix is worth its weight in gold on almost all mosses with algae. The exceptions to the rule are subwassertang, pellia, mini pellia and other like "Crunchy" see through "Mosses"


----------



## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

I had a decent thread started here some time ago....

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=197452&highlight=


----------



## ChemGuyEthan (Apr 13, 2014)

Grumpy1415 said:


> Great thread. Thanks for doing these experiments. I was able to grab some Jungle Clear Water (potassium permanganate) in the fish section at my local Walmart...may be an easy source for you to get your hands on a small amount as well.


I work in a chemistry lab so I can just put some in a vial for free and take it home, haha. Not that I advocate that sort of thing...



chad320 said:


> Not to sound too redundant but algaefix is worth its weight in gold on almost all mosses with algae. The exceptions to the rule are subwassertang, pellia, mini pellia and other like "Crunchy" see through "Mosses"





chad320 said:


> I had a decent thread started here some time ago....
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=197452&highlight=


Thanks for the post to your algaefix thread! Seems like it's a nice treatment for exactly this algae, if only I didn't have shrimp in there, haha. I will keep it in mind though for the future after I transfer plants over to the new tank...

Maybe I won't bother testing that one then since you've already done so.


----------



## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

chad320 said:


> Not to sound too redundant but algaefix is worth its weight in gold on almost all mosses with algae. The exceptions to the rule are subwassertang, pellia, mini pellia and other like "Crunchy" see through "Mosses"


Chad, what do you recommend for mini pellia?


----------



## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

Unfortunately I never found a good cure-all/quick fix for MP. I used a bamboo skewer to twist some of the algae out of it but eventually got frustrated with it, and took the clean stuff as a culture to restart it. Another painfully slow trick is to grow it out emergent as this kills off a lot of algae varieties and works quite well for Subwassertang(which is easily melted by chemical treatments).


----------



## birbaliktanki (Jun 18, 2014)

i just tried the 5% bleach solution on my fissidens and christmas moss for 2 minutes dip. the fissidens became all brown. i think its dead already but the christmass moss is still green. perhaps a 1 minute dip is enough for fissidens and other delicate mosses.


----------



## ChemGuyEthan (Apr 13, 2014)

chad320 said:


> Unfortunately I never found a good cure-all/quick fix for MP. I used a bamboo skewer to twist some of the algae out of it but eventually got frustrated with it, and took the clean stuff as a culture to restart it. Another painfully slow trick is to grow it out emergent as this kills off a lot of algae varieties and works quite well for Subwassertang(which is easily melted by chemical treatments).


Hmm...maybe I'll try a few treatments with pelia, though I don't have any that's currently infested with algae *knocks on wood* I could just test it out.



birbaliktanki said:


> i just tried the 5% bleach solution on my fissidens and christmas moss for 2 minutes dip. the fissidens became all brown. i think its dead already but the christmass moss is still green. perhaps a 1 minute dip is enough for fissidens and other delicate mosses.


Seems like fissidens really is just about as touchy as the green thread algae...which sucks, haha. I can attest that algaefix works as I did a standard treatment with that in a bucket, though I forgot pictures, I'll do it again with pictures.

I did a few more experiments with bleach on different time scales. Tried really concentrated (full strength, 1:1 bleach water, 1:3 bleach water) and while all of these kill the algae quickly, as anticipated, they all killed fissidens in the same time frame. I didn't test other plants under these conditions with the bleach. After all these experiments I'm a bit against bleach except for the hardier plants, it's really quite harsh on the mosses. I did do a quick dip with other plants in a 1:20 bleach:water solution (ludwigia red, blyxa japonica, rotala colorata, s repens, and some crypts). ALL of these plants survived the dip (I didn't make any special efforts to avoid roots though some didn't get dipped cause they're too big, like the crypts), I kept them submerged for 5 minutes, since I knew this would be enough to damage the algae, then rinsed in tap water, and finally soaked for a few minutes in triple-dosed prime tap water. They all made it back into the tank unscathed (though I admit that the new growth on the L red looks much healthier, related to the bleach treatment or not I can't say).

I have not tested the potassium permanganate yet, I'll let you all know.

Now onto why I really updated. After over a week, my initial experiments are unchanged, no new growth noticed, algae dead in bleach but still green in the other two and the moss has all survived in the Excel/H2O2 treatments. I will discontinue these experiments. 

To REALLY test these last two treatments, I took some thread algae and put some in a cup with straight, 3% H2O2 and straight Excel. There were no immediate color changes with the algae (H2O2 bubbled, but that's no surprise). I didn't notice a change until the next morning where the Excel bathed algae was completely unscathed!!! The H2O2 treatment did successfully kill the algae. I will try a reasonably quick H2O2 treatment followed by Excel and see where that gets us.

Here are the pictures:

Excel treatment overnight (remember, soaked in undiluted Excel overnight):


H2O2 treatment (standard 3% topical H2O2 soak overnight):


And both:


So I think that's all the evidence needed to show that Excel does NOT affect this algae at all. Good for others, just not this one. I'll see about doing some of these other experiments discussed in previous posts later.

Thanks for all the comments and views everyone!


----------



## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

I am interested to see more experimentation with different dilutions of H2O2. Some different ratios, on different mosses, versus the algae. Mosses/ferns tend to be a higher form of life so hopefully theres a breaking point somewhere there where you can kill the algae without harming the Fiss or better yet, the softer fern type "mosses".


----------



## ChemGuyEthan (Apr 13, 2014)

chad320 said:


> I am interested to see more experimentation with different dilutions of H2O2. Some different ratios, on different mosses, versus the algae. Mosses/ferns tend to be a higher form of life so hopefully theres a breaking point somewhere there where you can kill the algae without harming the Fiss or better yet, the softer fern type "mosses".


Yeah, that's also something I'm interested in. It might be that enough treatments with peroxide would kill the algae slowly in-tank.

I'll check some different conditions out soon.


----------



## dindin (Mar 4, 2009)

I use bleach at a much more diluted strength than your experiment. It works. I will measure it out next time and let you know the %.


----------



## ahem (Dec 27, 2014)

My approach had been hack and burn with that kind of algae. If a plant is overrun I toss it or otherwise chop of affected parts. If you stay on top it, maybe have a uv to kill any spores/flagellates, I think it can eventually go away. Also I found h2o2 to burn it good in tank. Got rid of some on drift wood and substrate that way.

What would be good to know is what gets this particular species growing?


----------



## anastasisariel (Oct 4, 2009)

Monster Fish said:


> Nice experiment. To be honest, I've only had luck killing spirogyra using Algaefix. It shrugged off H2O2 and Excel and I'm afraid of killing my mosses with bleach.


Exact, same experience


----------



## anastasisariel (Oct 4, 2009)

chad320 said:


> Not to sound too redundant but algaefix is worth its weight in gold on almost all mosses with algae. The exceptions to the rule are subwassertang, pellia, mini pellia and other like "Crunchy" see through "Mosses"


I used algaefix as I had mini pelia and it did eliminate the algae and did not harm the plants. I would have paid double the price that I paid for it!


----------



## ahem (Dec 27, 2014)

This experiment was very informative. The take away seems to be the best way to fix mosses is to QT them in some algaefix.

Reading on the Spyro algae it seems it does not have a motile form, which means UV's don't do anything for it.


----------



## ChemGuyEthan (Apr 13, 2014)

Oops, sorry I haven't been paying attention to my own thread, haha. I will just start off by saying I have been slacking on experiments. I've just been too busy at work. I can try a few more as I still have a little bit of this algae around, but have gotten rid of most of it.

What worked best for me was to remove the bulk by hand, do a big (50%) water change to remove floating bits, then blasted it with algaefix. The growth had essentially stopped, and repeating this once a week has nearly eradicated it. Just have some pesky bits that refuse to come off my driftwood (though I suppose I could pull those out and nuke them separate from the tank). I have also been more diligent with my dosing/CO2/light ratios along with adding more circulation via powerhead (all I have now is in my corner tank which is a B to get these things all right in).

I do have some permanganate I can try using as well (being in a chemistry lab has it's perks...). I can report back on that when I do so. Maybe I'll fiddle around with the bleach ratio/time when I get the chance. Thanks for following this one everyone!



ahem said:


> My approach had been hack and burn with that kind of algae. If a plant is overrun I toss it or otherwise chop of affected parts. If you stay on top it, maybe have a uv to kill any spores/flagellates, I think it can eventually go away. Also I found h2o2 to burn it good in tank. Got rid of some on drift wood and substrate that way.
> 
> What would be good to know is what gets this particular species growing?


Hmm, if H2O2 burned it, my guess is you don't have spirogyra...cause peroxide and excel seemed to do nothing. And I think this algae really likes nutrients and light, just like plants. So I think it's a matter of patience to gain the upper hand to get it out of an otherwise healthy tank.



dindin said:


> I use bleach at a much more diluted strength than your experiment. It works. I will measure it out next time and let you know the %.


I would be interested in seeing what you've had success with.



anastasisariel said:


> I used algaefix as I had mini pelia and it did eliminate the algae and did not harm the plants. I would have paid double the price that I paid for it!


Algaefix did the trick, I even have cherries and amanos in the tank and after a few treatments of algaefix, they're still kicking around in there. Though I am not sure I could find dead ones since the tank is pretty thickly planted...



ahem said:


> This experiment was very informative. The take away seems to be the best way to fix mosses is to QT them in some algaefix.
> 
> Reading on the Spyro algae it seems it does not have a motile form, which means UV's don't do anything for it.


Yeah, again I'll jump on the algaefix bandwagon and say that it's the only in-tank treatment that I've had success with.


----------

