# Can not stop the BBA!!



## ledzeppman (Jun 23, 2009)

Alright so here is the run down. Within the last 5 months I have experienced an endless problem with keeping BBA from growing with my 45 gallon planted. I have cut lighting, increased co2 and spot treated with excel as well as lots and lots of cut backs, but the BBA keeps coming back. All of my BBA is in the middle region to lower region of the tank, including on my substrate (Eco-complete). Here is my current set up.

45 gallon tank (about 35 gallons of water)
96w CFL 6700k bulb
8 hour lighting schedule

Water temp - 78-80
PH - 6.5-6.6
KH - 3dkh
co2 - 30ppm

NO3 - 2
PO4 - .25
K - ~20ppm
Fe - .1

Dosing seachem Flourish line. NPK are dosed 3 days a week and trace 3 days a week, alternating days between macro and micro dosing.

50% water change once a week

The tank is pretty well established with Hemiathus Micranthemoides, Glosso, Eleocharis acicularis, Hygrophila Kompakt, Rotala Walichii.

I only notice BBA growth on older leaves of all these plants, some on are lower light areas and others in high light areas of the tank. Still getting new growth on all plants that BBA is not attatching itself to. But come a couple weeks down the line and that once new growth starts getting BBA.

Where have I gone wrong?


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

It sounds like you're trying to implement EI dosing with the Flourish line, but your nutrient levels are way off.

You need ten times more NO3 and PO4, and two times more iron. K is good.

Although if you're getting those numbers from tests, it might be useful if you post actual dose amounts. Tests can be wrong.

CO2 could also slowly be increased to ~60ppm. Watch fish for signs of gasping, and make sure pH doesn't go below 6.2.

Once that's taken care of, a whole tank Excel overdose will be more effective than spot treatment, in my opinion. I omitted the initial dose, started at 1x daily dose, and *slowly* increased to 2x over a period of about 10 days, watching for any sign of trouble. I then held it there for two weeks. My tank has been BBA-free ever since.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

DarkCobra said:


> Although if you're getting those numbers from tests, it might be useful if you post actual dose amounts. Tests can be wrong.


Ad DarkCobra mentioned, tests can be wrong. I would also try to make a reference solution/calibration solution for your NO3 and PO4 tests. 



DarkCobra said:


> CO2 could also slowly be increased to *~60ppm*. Watch fish for signs of gasping, and make sure pH doesn't go below 6.2.


Surely, you mean ~30 ppm? 60 ppm of CO2 is a lot.


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Darkblade48 said:


> Surely, you mean ~30 ppm? 60 ppm of CO2 is a lot.


On this one I'm going along with the advice that CO2 should be kept near the max possible without harming fish.

I experimented and found that my fish start gasping when I exceed ~80ppm. So I backed down to 60ppm to give myself a safety margin.

Those numbers are from my tests. Since tests can be wrong, I may not actually be running as high as 60ppm. But I know my fish appear healthy, and the plants are pearling better than when run at 30ppm. I've seen other people report positive results on plant growth and algae supression when they exceed what they believe is 30ppm as well.

If Ledzeppman's tests are off, he might be getting less than 30ppm; and even if not, he might still benefit from more.

But the nutrients are definitely the big issue here, not the CO2.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

DarkCobra said:


> Those numbers are from my tests. Since tests can be wrong, I may not actually be running as high as 60ppm.


How are you testing the levels of your CO2?



DarkCobra said:


> But the nutrients are definitely the big issue here, not the CO2.


For sure, the nutrients are off balance, but BBA could also be due to fluctuating CO2 levels, hence my asking.


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## cah925 (May 18, 2007)

I agree with the above posts about nutrient levels being off along with CO2 levels.
I had a bad BBA outbreak recently as well. I did a 3 day blackout and then cut my lights to 6 hrs. I still had some residual BBA after the blackout. My LFS got some Amano shrimp in a couple days after my blackout. I added 10 shrimp to the tank and they went to town eating all the dying BBA. 3 days after putting the shrimp in, the plants are clean and algae free and the shrimp are vigorously cleaning the wood. I have resumed my regular dosing schedule and the plants are happy again.


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## ledzeppman (Jun 23, 2009)

DarkCobra said:


> It sounds like you're trying to implement EI dosing with the Flourish line, but your nutrient levels are way off.
> 
> You need ten times more NO3 and PO4, and two times more iron. K is good.
> 
> ...


NO3 at 20ppm??
PO4 at 2.5ppm??

I am using EI method for dosing. Seems to me that having nitrates so high is harmful to fish and phosphates at 2.5ppm would promote algae growth. 

I doubt every test kit I'm using is wrong. 

I am dosing amounts based on the formula given to achieve the nutrient numbers Im looking for within 35 gallons of water. I dont dose NO3 or PO4 unless I have tested the water first to ensure I am not overdosing.

From what I understood BBA is brought on by two things, excess light and low co2. So if my lighting is high co2 needs to come up. My CO2 ppm is based on a drop checker with 4dkh solution as well as using the degas method for calculating CO2. Everything reads 30ppm.

Last night I started bringing up my CO2 levels. I would like to hear others responses about nutrients being low. From what I have read and heard NO3 over 10ppm is excess as well PO4 over 1ppm, depending on plants and how heavily planted, but most of the time I see NO3 around 5ppm and PO4 around .5ppm


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## rich815 (May 21, 2008)

ledzeppman said:


> ....Seems to me that having nitrates so high is harmful to fish and phosphates at 2.5ppm would promote algae growth.....


Well, firstly both of those statements are incorrect. I've run Nitrates at 30-35ppm and Phosphates at 10ppm+ in the past and fish lived and I had hardly any algae issues. 

What are you using to test levels? Consumer test kits are notoriously inconsistent and unreliable. Dosing EI with the Seachem line must be expensive. Go dry ferts, much, MUCH cheaper. Make sure CO2 is consistent and strong. And get the nutrients consistent too. Remove ALL traces of BBA on any leaves (remove the leaves, or entire plant if needed), using a syringe spot hit the BBA on rocks, equipment or driftwood with either H202 or Excel with the filters and all flow off. Monitor BBA daily. Remove it with diligence. Then it's just patience. Took me 3 months of this to beat it a few years ago. Was a 15 minute ritual every night after work for a while. Finally got on top of it. Hardly have any now.


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## ledzeppman (Jun 23, 2009)

rich815 said:


> Hardly have any now.


 
If you "hardly" have any now, you still have some and sounds like you havent solved the root cause of the problem. Just sounds like you are deligent in removing it.

I want specifics on nutrient values


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## rich815 (May 21, 2008)

By hardly I mean every month or so I see a speck on a piece of substrate or an old leaf. BBA is never 100% gone particularly since I trade plants and such. As for specifics on nutrients what's the point of EI then?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

How long has the tank been setup and how often do you clean your filter? It's erroneous to always blame BBA on fert levels and co2 especially if your plants are growing.


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## rich815 (May 21, 2008)

houseofcards said:


> How long has the tank been setup and how often do you clean your filter? It's erroneous to always blame BBA on fert levels and co2 especially if your plants are growing.


H.O.C. has it right too. A stable situation in the tank is truly one of the best defenses against BBA. Could be why my BBA finally got under control after 3 months of being real consistent with ferts, my CO2 and my BBA elimination scheme.

Forget measuring levels of NPK and just start following a good EI regime with dry ferts in teaspoon measurements for your tank (or the equivalent in the Seachem liquids until you run out of those). Great place to buy dry ferts: www.aquariumfertilizers.com . Get a drop checker and be sure use 4dKh water in it and crank the CO2 where the drop checker is showing green-yellow and fish are still fine. Personally I have my CO2 on timer that starts it 1 hour before lights on, and off 30 minutes before the lights go off. Then:

Not many people know this but "Kasmir" is a perfect song to play while doing your daily BBA elimination routine. Start that track on your iPod or stereo. Then get a chair and put it in front of the tank. Turn off all filters and any power heads. Have a plastic syringe ready filled with H202. Scan your tank side to side looking for BBA. Remove leaves that have it. For that which cannot be easily removed (on rocks, driftwood, equipment) get ready to squirt it with the H2O2. By the time you're ready to start squirting it will be about 2:11 on the song and the changeover is perfect. Try to find a tuft of BBA and squirt it with each Bonham drum rift as he hits the cymbals. Around 3:22 Robert starts singing about how the BBA you squirted is dying and will be changing color soon, that keeps you going.....you're on a roll now. At the song change over with about 1:50 left will be around the time you've hit all the BBA you can find with H202 and it's all pearling and bubbling. Stand back with your hands on your hips and view your tank. Nod your head knowlingly as your tank fizzs like a champagne glass with all the BBA dying from your treatment. Do this every night for a couple of months. BBA will be defeated and under control. (Be sure to only use about 15-20ml of the H202 in total each time and wait about 5 minutes at least before putting the filters and power heads back on).

Then watch and attack any small tufts that arise at WC time each week.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Yes I did know about "Kasmir" and I highly recommend it.

As long as your plants are growing and your dosing the organic control is so important. Filter maintenance, keeping the tubes clean, small fish load, less food. All these things in conjunction with reducing light cycle has always kicked it for me. You need to hit it (BBA) from all sides since there are too many variables in one's tank for anyone to pinpoint what's causing your BBA.


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

ledzeppman said:


> NO3 at 20ppm??
> PO4 at 2.5ppm??
> 
> I am using EI method for dosing. Seems to me that having nitrates so high is harmful to fish and phosphates at 2.5ppm would promote algae growth.
> ...


Nitrate at 20 ppm and phosphate at 2.5ppm?
Yes. Nitrate and phosphate numbers that high are ok-they are probably way lower than mine-I don't measure with consumer tests kits because yes, they are mostly inaccurate unless you make reference solutions to calibrate them-buy a digital scale, lab beakers and distilled water to make solutions if you wish to use those test kits. This also applies to your CO2 levels-a drop checker is a rough estimate. If you wish to do EI ditch the Flourish line and get dry ferts-much easier to use accurately and much cheaper. Use Excel to apply directly to the BBA. BTW I'm no expert by any means and like you I believed the same things ie; phosphate causes algae ect but I found out on this forum that that's not true and I prove it to myself with each improvement I see in my tank.


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

According to APC's "Fertilator" calculator:

_NO3: 10-20ppm
PO4: 1-2ppm_

According to the EI dosing guide here:

_NO3: 5-30ppm
PO4: 1-2ppm_

I could quote more, and they're all slightly different.

But NO3 at 2.0 and PO4 at 0.25? That's deficient by _any_ measure, especially the scientific data Plantbrain designed EI around regarding plant uptake ability at various nutrient concentrations. The whole idea of EI is to make sure the plants' nutrient needs are met at all times by providing excess.

And yes, test kits really can be wrong. I've created a 10ppm nitrate reference solution, and it tests 10ppm. I test my tank and it measures just over 5ppm, even though I'm dosing enough that it should be near 20ppm. Then I add enough to raise my tank by 10ppm in addition to what's already there, test it, and it still measures just over 5ppm! The test kit is "good" because it successfully measures the simple reference solution, but something in the tank is interfering with the test kit.

As for CO2 tests, I use both a drop checker and the pH/KH test method. The drop checker is currently suspect; a long story which I've discussed in another thread. Suffice it to say I've come away with the knowledge that high tank pH (due to high KH), irregardless of actual CO2 level, can interfere with a drop checker.

Assuming nothing is interfering with the pH/KH tests, I have 6.5pH, 7°KH, and 66ppm CO2. But the KH test kit only measures to the nearest degree. And color matching the pH exactly is impossible. So I might actually have:

pH=6.4, KH=7.5°, CO2=89ppm
ph=6.6, KH=7.0°, CO2=52ppm

A 37ppm difference by introducing the slightest measurement errors!

But neither the drop checker or the pH/KH tests are needed to figure out the right CO2 level. They are useful for estimating your level, but the response of the plants, fish, and algae is more important and is indisputable.

"Kasmir"? I will have to try that.


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## blackandyellow (Jul 1, 2009)

I´m also beggining to see some BBA. My tank has been set up for 2.5 months now. Last time it was a pain to control it through consistent trimming, spot treating with excel and h2o2. 

I changed from Seachem products to dry ferts but the mix was prepared by a LFS, and since the change I started seeing the algae growing more. 

How do you think I should tackle it before it gets out of control? I already reduced the light period from 9 to 7 hours. 

From what I understand it´s a combination of too much light and not enough nutrients?


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

Usually not enough CO2 and too much light.


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## blackandyellow (Jul 1, 2009)

I pumped up the Co2 and reduced the lighting period to only 6 hours. I will clip off all the leaves that are being affected this weekend, and will manually clean the anubias with H2O2.

I hope the nasty thing gets under control with these measures. Last time it took quite some effort to control it


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## Rooted (Feb 8, 2010)

IME when using excel to "treat" algae, consistent, daily doses per the package instructions (roughly 1mL per 10 gallons per day and 3-4x more after water changes) has been most helpful. also tells me that i'm short on a carbon supply. i just imported a bunch of java fern from a friend that was infested with bba and the bba all died off within a week of being in my tank. all these specific amounts of minerals and individual doses just go straight over my head.

edit: incidentally my friend who gave me the java fern had a waterfall type thing going on so probably lost a ton of carbon through all the surface agitation, thus creating a carbon shortage and enhancing the bba growth IMO


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## MoonFish (Feb 12, 2006)

blackandyellow said:


> I´m also beggining to see some BBA. My tank has been set up for 2.5 months now. Last time it was a pain to control it through consistent trimming, spot treating with excel and h2o2.
> 
> I changed from Seachem products to dry ferts but the mix was prepared by a LFS, and since the change I started seeing the algae growing more.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure I would trust a mix? I'd find out what was in it.


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## blackandyellow (Jul 1, 2009)

This weekend I declared war to bba before it gets out of hand. I did a major prunning of my Java Fern (it already needed it anyway) taking out all the leaves that had even the slightest piece of bba fur. I spot treated with excel all the anubias and plants that showed a bit of growth. The pressurized Co2 was raised to 5 bps, though I think the problem is actually my diffuser rather than the ammount being released. Lights are on only for 7 hours now.

Do you know if I can dose excel AND have pressurized Co2? I was thinking on doing this to help combat the bba


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## captain_bu (Oct 20, 2007)

There is no reason you can't dose a CO2 injected tank with Excel.


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## blackandyellow (Jul 1, 2009)

Great. I´ll do this for a full week to help rid the bba. Let´s hope I win the battle


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