# Sump or Canister Filter



## Sordbodan (Oct 25, 2016)

I am in the process of setting up a 48”, 90 gallon high tech planted tank. I have the opportunity to get the tank in a drilled version to set up a sump system. I have never owned a sump so I thought I’d reach out to the community for your thoughts. Here are some of the thing I am wondering:

1- How easy is to maintain sumps? I find cleaning canister filters and the associated hoses a major chore and so they often get extremely dirty. My LFS said that sumps are much easier to clean. No need to clean the plumbing and everything In the sump is easy to access. Is that your experience? This is the main reason I am considering a sump.

2- What about CO2? Is there any issue with CO2 - beyond the fact that I’d expect to have to dose more due to larger surface area, which is not a problem for me.

3 - I have lots oh nano fish - tetras, raspboras etc. - and shrimp. Will the overflow be an issue with them getting sucked into the sump. If it is a problem are there any solutions without reducing the flow from the drain. One person suggested using plastic or stainless steel mesh on the weir which sounded like a good idea. Any other suggestions?

4- Anything else?

Thanks everyone for your input.


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## EdWiser (Jul 14, 2015)

One thing you do need to do is use an auto top off system. As a sump requires a constant water level to work properly.
I have used them for 30 years on reef systems. You have to clean the mechanical filter regularly. As it can cause three water level in the sump to change. 
As with all things there are trade offs.


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

Regarding nano fish and shrimp, they certainly can take a trip to the sump! I have a filter sock which will catch any joy-riders. Some fish take a ride or two then seem to figure it out and aren't caught anymore. Otos in my case fall into that category. Amano shrimp seem to be constantly getting into the sump. I try to look in the filter sock every two or three days but I have lost shrimp to this. Some folks fashion a pre-filter out of mesh but this can reduce your flow and it will need to be maintained.


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## Sordbodan (Oct 25, 2016)

EdWiser said:


> One thing you do need to do is use an auto top off system. As a sump requires a constant water level to work properly.
> I have used them for 30 years on reef systems. You have to clean the mechanical filter regularly. As it can cause three water level in the sump to change.
> As with all things there are trade offs.


Thanks. Yes you are right about the top off. I already have a 20 gallon rodi container - I use mineralized rodi water - so I should be able to set that up from the Container. When you say mechanical filter, do you mean the filter socks? If so, I see what you mean. I was hoping to use floss in the sock and replace the floss every couple of days, which I hope is manageable given how easy it is to access - but it may be a case of "the grass is greener".

Bump:


billb said:


> Regarding nano fish and shrimp, they certainly can take a trip to the sump! I have a filter sock which will catch any joy-riders. Some fish take a ride or two then seem to figure it out and aren't caught anymore. Otos in my case fall into that category.  Amano shrimp seem to be constantly getting into the sump. I try to look in the filter sock every two or three days but I have lost shrimp to this. Some folks fashion a pre-filter out of mesh but this can reduce your flow and it will need to be maintained.


Thanks. These are indeed the two I have had problems with even with the canister filter. I use a skimmer type intake on my canister, and I had to put a mesh on the skimmer since I kept of digging out dead ottos and amano from the canister at the time of cleaning. Who knows how many had disintegrated between cleanings.


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## Sarlindescent (May 14, 2015)

I am a fan of sumps when possible. Regarding the ATO for planted tanks, it depends on the design of the sump. Evaporation on FW is far less relevant that SW. SW changes salinity with evaporation. FW just increases the concentration of nutrients, normally by a nominal level. The most important thing is making sure your pump doesn't run dry. If your return section is a few gallons, this may be days or a week for it to run dry. For my sump on my 180, I have a 75 gallon sump. The pump is sectioned off with mattenfilter, so it has access to 50 gallons or so. It would take over a month to run dry. The downside would be if the overflow clogs, the display can overfill and flood. With a beananimal style overflow, this is not a concern.

There are some pictures in my build thread if you are interested in some DIY ideas.
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1312137-wills-tanks-journey-pic-heavy.html

Regarding the OG questions
1- Sumps can be as easy or simple to maintain as you want. It is mainly dependent on the design and how much crap you put down there. In FW, this is less of an issue as you wont have a protein skimmer taking space. Most people also do not run many or any reactors or algae scrubbers or....excess equipment. Additionally, stand design will effect ease of maintenance. If you have a sump under the tank and the stand it short, it may be difficult to access the filter. This will be the same issue with a canister, but just something to consider.

2- This is again dependent on the design. For instance, if your drains are above the sump waterline or are not tuned properly (gate valves are the way to go), this will create a ton of surface agitation gassing off co2. Drain lines should sit around 1 inch under the water surface

3-Nanofish will make it into the sump. Depending on design, this may or may not be an issue. If there is a lower flow section, they will make it there and be fine. One major benefit of this is if you have fry, they will make it down there and it is a sanctuary where they will not be eaten. Until I added foam to my canister intake, I would commonly find shrimp in there and occasionally a nano fish fry. They are less likely to live in a canister than a sump.


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## simplechamp (Jul 22, 2012)

As someone who setup their first sump system recently I enjoyed it very much. There is definitely a learning curve, it's not plug-and-play like a canister. But I found it very interesting and am enjoying the learning and experimentation. I like the additional water volume and customization/configuration options. I also like how open and accessible everything is. Need to rinse the coarse mechanical sponge? No problem. Where with my canister I'm like ehh do I really feel like disconnecting it and opening it up. It's not a huge difference, but I do feel like the sump is slightly better here.

I haven't had any issues with evaporation screwing up the water level. I've found it to be pretty tolerant in that regard actually. I did have one instance of level going low in the sump, but that was due to feed into sump getting backed up.

Overall if you want something that's going to be plug and play probably go with the canister. But if you are looking for a learning experience, and ability to customize and optimize the sump is the way to go.


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## Oughtsix (Apr 8, 2011)

In my opinion a sump is neither harder nor easier to maintain than a canister filter... it all depends on the design of the sump! When I design a sump I look at each piece of it from a maintenance point of view. I specifically design a sump so that I can maintain it easily. So for me my sumps are MUCH easier to maintain than the wide variety of canister filters I have owned. On the flip side I have seen sumps with such complex designs that maintenance would be a nightmare!

Mechanical media needs to be removed, rinsed and replaced on a regular basis. Design your sump so this is an easy quick task and I think you will find that you are likely to do this more often which should make for healthier and happier fish!

In one of my tanks I have guppies with the associated numerous guppy fry. I use a very coarse sponge filter in front of the overflow to keep the fry from going down the overflow. This sponge is the most maintained piece of my tank as it cakes up with debris pretty quick. It is VERY easy to pull the sponge, rinse it and replace it. I also have a second layer of the same sponge INSIDE the overflow. When I pull the outside piece of sponge I don't have to worry about the fry going into the overflow because of the second piece of sponge. I usually pull the outside sponge, clean it, replace it, then do the same for the inside sponge. I usually do this once a week because the tank level rises when the coarse sponge starts to clog. If both the outside and inside sponge clog the tank water rises over the top of both of them and goes down the overflow before the tank level gets too high and causes a flood.


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## Sordbodan (Oct 25, 2016)

Sarlindescent said:


> I am a fan of sumps when possible. Regarding the ATO for planted tanks, it depends on the design of the sump. Evaporation on FW is far less relevant that SW. SW changes salinity with evaporation. FW just increases the concentration of nutrients, normally by a nominal level. The most important thing is making sure your pump doesn't run dry. If your return section is a few gallons, this may be days or a week for it to run dry. For my sump on my 180, I have a 75 gallon sump. The pump is sectioned off with mattenfilter, so it has access to 50 gallons or so. It would take over a month to run dry. The downside would be if the overflow clogs, the display can overfill and flood. With a beananimal style overflow, this is not a concern.
> 
> There are some pictures in my build thread if you are interested in some DIY ideas.
> https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1312137-wills-tanks-journey-pic-heavy.html
> ...


Thanks. This is very helpful. I’ll make sure my drain does not cause a lot of turbulence to minimize CO2 loss. Also appreciate the Bean Animal overflow suggestion for dealing with a clogged drain. Does Herbie style overflow have the same advantage?

I look forward to checking out your build thread tonight, after work.

Bump:


Oughtsix said:


> In my opinion a sump is neither harder nor easier to maintain than a canister filter... it all depends on the design of the sump! When I design a sump I look at each piece of it from a maintenance point of view. I specifically design a sump so that I can maintain it easily. So for me my sumps are MUCH easier to maintain than the wide variety of canister filters I have owned. On the flip side I have seen sumps with such complex designs that maintenance would be a nightmare!
> 
> Mechanical media needs to be removed, rinsed and replaced on a regular basis. Design your sump so this is an easy quick task and I think you will find that you are likely to do this more often which should make for healthier and happier fish!


Thanks for your reply. I am new to sumps. Any design tips for prioritizing ease of maintenance would be welcome. Do you have a post about your sump?

Bump:


simplechamp said:


> As someone who setup their first sump system recently I enjoyed it very much. There is definitely a learning curve, it's not plug-and-play like a canister. But I found it very interesting and am enjoying the learning and experimentation. I like the additional water volume and customization/configuration options. I also like how open and accessible everything is. Need to rinse the coarse mechanical sponge? No problem. Where with my canister I'm like ehh do I really feel like disconnecting it and opening it up. It's not a huge difference, but I do feel like the sump is slightly better here.
> 
> I haven't had any issues with evaporation screwing up the water level. I've found it to be pretty tolerant in that regard actually. I did have one instance of level going low in the sump, but that was due to feed into sump getting backed up.
> 
> Overall if you want something that's going to be plug and play probably go with the canister. But if you are looking for a learning experience, and ability to customize and optimize the sump is the way to go.


Thanks. I feel exactly the same way about opening up my canister - plus I also worry as to how much effort it’ll be to get the siphon going - every now and then it is a bear. 

I do like tinkering though, so I hope it’d be fun for me as well.


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## Oughtsix (Apr 8, 2011)

My overflow. A piece of 2" PVC pipe. It has been running for 5 years without any issues.

My very dirty overflow in need of a cleaning:








Pull the outside sponge and rinse:

















Replace the outside sponge and pull the inside sponge then rinse:
















This is what my overflow looks like with both sponges removed and the return pump turned off:








This is the sump. About $60 off ebay and perfect for my 35g tank. I lift the lid, pull the filter matt, wash it then replace it all without turning off the pump:









Maintenance time is about 3 minutes.

About every month or two I will pull the fine sponge filter under the bio balls and wash it. Due to the design of this commercial sump this is MUCH more of a hassle than it should be!

For those wondering this tank is in my living room and this very simple overflow on my 35g tank is perfectly quiet. The fans on the lights are louder than the overflow.




Here is the sump I am building for my new 180g planted tank:


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## Quesenek (Sep 26, 2008)

On a large tank, the draw for me to a sump would be the ability to run the Co2 reactor on a dedicated pump to get optimal diffusion, without cluttering up the tank with equipment or slowing down the filter outflow.
Another draw is the filter media capacity versus a canister filter, being able to run through a prefilter into a range of sponge mesh sizes along with a good amount of biological filter media and chemical media if needed is really appealing.


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## Sordbodan (Oct 25, 2016)

Oughtsix said:


> My overflow. A piece of 2" PVC pipe. It has been running for 5 years without any issues.
> 
> My very dirty overflow in need of a cleaning:
> View attachment 903497
> ...


Thanks for sharing. Great re the overflow. It makes sense. Your new sump for 180G looks interesting. What is the canister doing? It looks like it is connected to the sump.

Bump:


Quesenek said:


> On a large tank, the draw for me to a sump would be the ability to run the Co2 reactor on a dedicated pump to get optimal diffusion, without cluttering up the tank with equipment or slowing down the filter outflow.
> Another draw is the filter media capacity versus a canister filter, being able to run through a prefilter into a range of sponge mesh sizes along with a good amount of biological filter media and chemical media if needed is really appealing.


Thanks for posting this. Good information. I had never thought of a CO2 reactor. I’ll look into that.


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## Oughtsix (Apr 8, 2011)

Sordbodan said:


> Thanks for sharing. Great re the overflow. It makes sense. Your new sump for 180G looks interesting. What is the canister doing? It looks like it is connected to the sump.


The canister is a Hayward EC40 Diatomatious Earth pool filter. It is like the old Diatom XL filters supersized and I will be running it full time. DE filters can trap particles so small they can even filter out disease causing bacteria and viruses. All of the return water from the sump will go through the DE filter for a final polishing before returning to the tank.

Here is a link to a thread that better explains it if you are intersested: https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/monster-diatomaceous-earth-de-filter.434493/










The sump for the 180g is plumbed into the house plumbing and will do auto water changes. Water in the right compartment of the sump will be pumped down the drain which will cause the water level in the left compartment to lower opening the float valve refilling the left compartment with fresh water. I am using a temperature compensating valve in front of the float valve so the incoming water will be tank temperature. Since I am on well water I am lucky to not have to worry about chlorine.

Easy maintenance and laziness are my goal: https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/...insula-dirt-bottom-planted-tank-build.714316/


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## Quesenek (Sep 26, 2008)

Oughtsix said:


> The canister is a Hayward EC40 Diatomatious Earth pool filter. It is like the old Diatom XL filters supersized and I will be running it full time. DE filters can trap particles so small they can even filter out disease causing bacteria and viruses. All of the return water from the sump will go through the DE filter for a final polishing before returning to the tank.
> 
> Here is a link to a thread that better explains it if you are intersested: https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/monster-diatomaceous-earth-de-filter.434493/
> 
> ...


The DE filter is actually a really cool idea, it's definitely going on the list if I ever find myself in a situation where I implement a sump.
For the charging process how will you do it with what seems like hardline fittings, and in your past experience what happens when the power goes out and pressure drops?


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## mourip (Mar 15, 2020)

Oughtsix said:


> Easy maintenance and laziness are my goal: https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/...insula-dirt-bottom-planted-tank-build.714316/


Wow! Epic build!

You may have to amortize all of the build effort over many years to get to EASY 

A great read...


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## EdWiser (Jul 14, 2015)

With an over flow the water level can only drop a couple of inches. Before it stops working. So a ATO is required. 
Any tank with a skimmer over flow requires a ATO.


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## Sarlindescent (May 14, 2015)

An example of a sump with a skimmer overflow and no ato. Note the only area baffled off is where the pipes flow into the sump. Thus the return pump has access to 50ish gallons of water and would take over a month to run dry.





























A sump with a skimmer overflow that does require an ATO. Note the small return pump chamber. Due to the final baffle, the return pump only has access to 3ish gallons and would take days to run dry.


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## Oughtsix (Apr 8, 2011)

mourip said:


> Wow! Epic build!
> 
> You may have to amortize all of the build effort over many years to get to EASY
> 
> A great read...


Thank you! I am nearing the end of the plumbing. I need to update the thread.


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## Oughtsix (Apr 8, 2011)

Quesenek said:


> The DE filter is actually a really cool idea, it's definitely going on the list if I ever find myself in a situation where I implement a sump.
> For the charging process how will you do it with what seems like hardline fittings, and in your past experience what happens when the power goes out and pressure drops?


The Diatomatious Earth actually clumps together and sticks to the screens (actually tubes of screen in the Hayward EC40) really well so it doesn't fall off during a power outage. The handle on the EC40 is there to move the screens up and down to knock the majority of the DE off the screens while the pump is off so it can recoat them with new DE shells facing the dirty water when the pump is turned back on. I always turn my pump off while feeding and I do not get DE plumes in the water. Once the DE has been initially loaded onto the screens the amount of DE that gets through the screens is very small. It is only on the very initial charging that there is a LOT of DE exiting the filter.

My next step on my 180 build is to finish plumping in the DE filter. There will be [STRIKE]a couple of valves[/STRIKE] (I just ordered a 1.5" 3 way valve off Amazon for only $18) to allow me to easily redirect water circulation coming out of the DE filter through the tank or directly back into the second compartment of the sump. I will only actually be using this for initially charging the DE. When I "regenerate" the DE by working the handle and knocking the DE off the screens so it will recoat them when the pump is turned back on I might use the bypass valve. But in the past I have just let the water run through the tank after regeneration and the minor amounts of DE that get into the tank has never bothered the fish and gets filtered out of the water column quite quickly. Any DE that settles out of the tank water just becomes part of my dirt substrate.

The majority of the longer pieces of pipe that I am using is a flexible PVC pipe. It is MUCH more rigid than PVC tubing but has a fair bit more "give" than regular PVC pipe. It has a surface resistance that is quite low, very close to if not equal to standard PVC pipe. I have had problems using the flexible PVC pipe in the past with it not making good solid welds. This time I am sanding EVERY mating surface with 80 grit to take the sheen off the hard and flexible PVC which I am confident will make for a much more solid weld.


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## Oughtsix (Apr 8, 2011)

I love your simple efficient sump design Sarlindescent! The sponges are really easy to get to and clean. How do you keep the sponges in place while the sump is running?


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## Sarlindescent (May 14, 2015)

Oughtsix said:


> I love your simple efficient sump design Sarlindescent! The sponges are really easy to get to and clean. How do you keep the sponges in place while the sump is running?





I like and dislike the sponges. They are 3" thick and slightly oversized in width, 1/2" or so. The friction allows them to stay in place. It is a very effective baffle system and not having to top off is convenient. The major downside, which only happens once a year or so, is cleaning them. Its a giant 18"x18"x3" block of fish $#@!. They are heavy and I have to load them into a rubbermaid and spray them a ton. It's very messy.


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## Squidhead (Sep 29, 2020)

If a sump interests you I would go for it. I prefer them to any other type of filtration in most instances. If you find it is not for you you can always put a plug in the bulkhead fitting and use a canister. The thing I've found over the years is whatever type of filtration you use, maintenance should be what you consider easiest for *you* to maintain! The easier it is for you, the more willing you will be to do it and less chance of ignoring it when life gets busy. There is no one size fits all with that. Depends on set up and access to your filtration. There are plenty of good suggestions by others above for your stock, such as pre-filter etc. It doesn't have to be complicated and expensive. I also make my own equipment, but that's my style. DIY is the hobby with in the hobby for me....also saves a few $$$[censored]The most recent sump I built is a 29G tank I picked up at a $ a gallon sale and used leftover acrylic for dividers. I used a wastebasket with holes drilled in the bottom and sides to hold about 5 gallons of lava rock as bio-media with 100% polyester quilt batting layed on top for mechanical. I rinse out the batting until I decide to change it out. The overflow is just a 2" pipe with teeth drilled in it. It has large bio balls in it to help reduce flow and noise. Ball valves on both drain and return to control flow. My heater is in the sump and CO2 reactor inline with return. The return is plumbed down to black 1/2" CPVC with holes drilled in it like a spray bar the holes go the length of the tank at the bottom about 1" from the substrate surface to blow any debris towards the front and to dispurce the CO2 and nutrients as even as possible. Also, a hole is drilled at the top of the return to prevent siphon back into the sump and flooding. I like having equipment out of the tank Only thing in there is the probe for CO2 controller and sensor for the thermometer hidden by the plants and Overflow. The plumbing for the drain and return are black and easily hidden with plants, driftwood, decor etc. BTW- no ATO on this one. They are nice but only necessary if your water evaporates quickly. Not enough in my situation with the exception of reef tank. I have had a period of 3 weeks before I was able to do a water change and top off and my level was good in the tank and getting close to a little low in the sump, but thats because I left the doors open one night and my dog loves to drink aquarium water


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## mourip (Mar 15, 2020)

Sarlindescent said:


> I like and dislike the sponges. They are 3" thick and slightly oversized in width, 1/2" or so. The friction allows them to stay in place. It is a very effective baffle system and not having to top off is convenient. The major downside, which only happens once a year or so, is cleaning them. Its a giant 18"x18"x3" block of fish $#@!. They are heavy and I have to load them into a rubbermaid and spray them a ton. It's very messy.


Great design. So simple.

Some questions...

What kind of sponges are these? Poret? Do they have different densities? Where did you source them?

Do the sponges act mostly for water polishing, biological filtration or both? It seems like most of the flow/filtration would happen toward the bottom of the sponges and the tops would dry out on occasion since the water level will drop somewhat unless you have auto-topoff. 

Thanks!

PS. I love the stand. Did you design and build it?


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## Sarlindescent (May 14, 2015)

mourip said:


> Great design. So simple.
> 
> Some questions...
> 
> ...



This was my first sump I designed and built. It is matten filter. Initially I set it up with 3 pieces. First was around 50ppi, second is 25ppi, 3rd is 10ppi. I believe it is the swiss tropicals poret, but its the same as matten. I have removed the 50ppi piece to increase the plant section. The foam was largely added as a baffle, but it does produce mechanical and biological filtration. It was designed for the tops of the foam to be above water so that plants and whatnot do not make it into the following sections. Initially, there were not supposed to be fish in that section, but everything in the tank except the altums have started breeding and fry have gone down into the sump. I also got some zebra plecos, that were not planned, that I trying to breed down there.


General sump design is water down the right side, dropped in under water to reduce turbulence and noise (gate valve tuned for full siphon). Then flows up and over to the egg crate grate, which I put filter floss on occasionally to polish. Then into the plant section. Then thru 25ppi foam. Then around 5 gallons of pumice and lava rock. Then thru 10 ppi foam. Then return section.


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## Sordbodan (Oct 25, 2016)

I’ll definitely try this with my exiting canister - it is 350gph s should be ok for 90G. If not I can always add another return pump. Thanks for sharing


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## Sordbodan (Oct 25, 2016)

Sarlindescent said:


> An example of a sump with a skimmer overflow and no ato. Note the only area baffled off is where the pipes flow into the sump. Thus the return pump has access to 50ish gallons of water and would take over a month to run dry.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome sump and stand. Did you build the stand? I wanted to do one but don’t have any experience with cutting aluminium.


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## Sordbodan (Oct 25, 2016)

Squidhead said:


> If a sump interests you I would go for it. I prefer them to any other type of filtration in most instances. If you find it is not for you you can always put a plug in the bulkhead fitting and use a canister. The thing I've found over the years is whatever type of filtration you use, maintenance should be what you consider easiest for *you* to maintain! The easier it is for you, the more willing you will be to do it and less chance of ignoring it when life gets busy. There is no one size fits all with that. Depends on set up and access to your filtration. There are plenty of good suggestions by others above for your stock, such as pre-filter etc. It doesn't have to be complicated and expensive. I also make my own equipment, but that's my style. DIY is the hobby with in the hobby for me....also saves a few $$$[censored]The most recent sump I built is a 29G tank I picked up at a $ a gallon sale and used leftover acrylic for dividers. I used a wastebasket with holes drilled in the bottom and sides to hold about 5 gallons of lava rock as bio-media with 100% polyester quilt batting layed on top for mechanical. I rinse out the batting until I decide to change it out. The overflow is just a 2" pipe with teeth drilled in it. It has large bio balls in it to help reduce flow and noise. Ball valves on both drain and return to control flow. My heater is in the sump and CO2 reactor inline with return. The return is plumbed down to black 1/2" CPVC with holes drilled in it like a spray bar the holes go the length of the tank at the bottom about 1" from the substrate surface to blow any debris towards the front and to dispurce the CO2 and nutrients as even as possible. Also, a hole is drilled at the top of the return to prevent siphon back into the sump and flooding. I like having equipment out of the tank Only thing in there is the probe for CO2 controller and sensor for the thermometer hidden by the plants and Overflow. The plumbing for the drain and return are black and easily hidden with plants, driftwood, decor etc. BTW- no ATO on this one. They are nice but only necessary if your water evaporates quickly. Not enough in my situation with the exception of reef tank. I have had a period of 3 weeks before I was able to do a water change and top off and my level was good in the tank and getting close to a little low in the sump, but thats because I left the doors open one night and my dog loves to drink aquarium water


Sounds like good advice and thanks for all the detailed description. Do you have any pictures? Also, have you had any problems with maintaining CO2 levels? I read in several posts people having to modify their sumps to stabilize their CO2.


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## Sarlindescent (May 14, 2015)

Sordbodan said:


> Awesome sump and stand. Did you build the stand? I wanted to do one but don’t have any experience with cutting aluminium.



I designed the stand around my setup and ordered it from Framing Tech. They will cut it for you and drop the design into a CAD program that will pressure and weight test the stand.


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## number1sixerfan (Nov 10, 2006)

Sumps have always seemed so interesting to me. They clearly look superior in function for a many reasons.. and for me particularly the easy access for maintenance and flexibility in gallon size/capacity is very attractive. 

The question I have always had is, with no plumbing DIY experience, how risky might it be? How much knowledge/experience should you really have? I'm looking at adding another larger tank and there's some options to have people deliver it and set up the overflow/sump, but I think that wouldn't be wise going into blindly. If I were to have one, I should probably know how to change/fix things myself.

I'm willing to do my youtube research and reading, but if anyone jumped into sumps without much DIY experience I'd be interested in any insight. Just always worry about some freak accident (which I know is stupid as it can also happen with canisters lol, it just never has for me (yet)).


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## Sarlindescent (May 14, 2015)

number1sixerfan said:


> Sumps have always seemed so interesting to me. They clearly look superior in function for a many reasons.. and for me particularly the easy access for maintenance and flexibility in gallon size/capacity is very attractive.
> 
> The question I have always had is, with no plumbing DIY experience, how risky might it be? How much knowledge/experience should you really have? I'm looking at adding another larger tank and there's some options to have people deliver it and set up the overflow/sump, but I think that wouldn't be wise going into blindly. If I were to have one, I should probably know how to change/fix things myself.
> 
> I'm willing to do my youtube research and reading, but if anyone jumped into sumps without much DIY experience I'd be interested in any insight. Just always worry about some freak accident (which I know is stupid as it can also happen with canisters lol, it just never has for me (yet)).



Research always helps, but the process is largely easy. Personally, I would ONLY do a sump on a drilled tank. Those over the top overflows are much higher risk. Additionally, 2 properly sized drains is fairly safe, 3 is near impossible to flood the display.


As for doing the plumbing yourself, its pretty simple. Just measure twice, cut once, and dry fit it before gluing. Unions are very beneficial to be able to dismantle and clean the system. If you have a router with a roundover bit, it makes it even more simple to put a nice chamfer on the cuts (not required for aquarium).


IMO, glue is better than threaded in anything possible. My properly glued joints have never leaked. My threaded ones normally did a little until I got the proper amount of tape on them. Additionally, most hardware stores sell clear pvc glue and lowes, at least near me, sells clear primer. Do not use purple primer if at all possible. It stains everything and shows on plumbing, no matter how careful you are applying. Spa tubing/flex PVC can be used also for some runs. It can make certain runs easier, although not needed.


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## ahem (Dec 27, 2014)

I regret not looking at a sump. I thought they would be prone to leaking but they are actually quite safe, and safer than a canister.


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## Oughtsix (Apr 8, 2011)

Sarlindescent said:


> Personally, I would ONLY do a sump on a drilled tank. Those over the top overflows are much higher risk.


I ran an over the top overflow for a couple of years... I would definitely never do it again! Once I got over the fear of drilling a glass tank myself a drilled overflow is so much better in so many ways!




Sarlindescent said:


> IMO, glue is better than threaded in anything possible.


My preference is the exact opposite. I prefer threaded joints so I can disassemble the plumbing and make changes MUCH easier. But that is the great thing about sumps, you can build it how it works best for YOU! 
P.S. I haven't used Teflon tape in YEARS!!! I use Teflon paste and never have issues with leaking threaded connections. Besides sealing better than the tape the paste lubricates the joints making them easier to screw in tight and disassemble them later.




number1sixerfan said:


> Sumps have always seemed so interesting to me. They clearly look superior in function for a many reasons.. and for me particularly the easy access for maintenance and flexibility in gallon size/capacity is very attractive.
> 
> The question I have always had is, with no plumbing DIY experience, how risky might it be? How much knowledge/experience should you really have? I'm looking at adding another larger tank and there's some options to have people deliver it and set up the overflow/sump, but I think that wouldn't be wise going into blindly. If I were to have one, I should probably know how to change/fix things myself.
> 
> I'm willing to do my youtube research and reading, but if anyone jumped into sumps without much DIY experience I'd be interested in any insight. Just always worry about some freak accident (which I know is stupid as it can also happen with canisters lol, it just never has for me (yet)).


Most DIY sumps are *WAY* over engineered (Mine included)! For a first sump keep your design VERY simple, use a drilled overflow and make sure you have enough empty space in the sump to handle the water that settles out of the display tank when the pump is shut off... you should be fine. Using flexible tubing will be *MUCH* simpler, quicker and allow you to make changes easier when you see how everything works together. I would not hard plumb (with PVC pipe or flexible PVC pipe) a first sump... I didn't on my first sump and I am glad I didn't.

My recommendation for gluing (welding) PVC joints is to sand the mating surfaces with 80 - 100 grit sand paper. This gives the cement more surface area to soften and create the bond. For flexible PVC (spa tubing) sanding off the sheen on the mating surfaces is a must in my opinion.

I had to order clear PVC primer/cleaner off Amazon as my local HD and Lowes didn't carry it. The primer is an important step for a good solid welded joint. 
1) Sand the mating surfaces
2) Prime the female fitting (the fitting the pipe will be inserted into)
3) Prime the male pipe
4) Prime the female fitting again
5) Apply the cement onto both pieces while the primer is still a little wet
6) Push the two pieces together and hold for 30 seconds so the pipe doesn't push out of the fitting
With good technique cemented joints are VERY solid and reliable.

Cutting PVC pipe to the correct length is an art in its own right. I measure the distance BETWEEN two fittings then add the length of the overlap. On my 1.5" PVC fittings the depth of the seat for the pipe is 1 1/4". If the distance between two fitting is 10" I will cut the pipe to 12-1/4" (10" + 1-1/8" + 1-1/8") This leaves 1/8" "play" in each fitting. Cutting and dry fitting all the pieces first never works for me. I can only shove a piece of dry pipe about 3/4" into a dry fitting. When the cement is applied the same pipe will easily go into the fitting the full 1-1/4".
*-- save yourself the length fitting headache on your first sump and use flexible tubing like I recommended above.*


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## Sordbodan (Oct 25, 2016)

Thanks to everyone for your input. I think at this point I’ll be going with a sump. Having seen all the amazing tanks and sumps in this thread, however, I do not think I have the skills (or the needed patience/meticulousness) to do DIY. The standard tanks like marineland seem to come with two holes only, which means doing bean animal or herbie overflows require an external return line that goes over the rim. I do not like that. So I looked at the marine tank kits such as Red Sea. Does anyone see an issue using these for a planted tank with CO2? I’ll see if I can find an affordable one.


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## Hendy8888 (Mar 6, 2008)

I don't think you will regret a sump, here is my build journal for some ideas if you want.
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?p=11103815


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## Sarlindescent (May 14, 2015)

Hendy8888 said:


> I don't think you will regret a sump, here is my build journal for some ideas if you want.
> https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?p=11103815



The plumbing job looks nice, but those plants look so unhealthy. Plants are supposed to be green, right? But seriously, very nice display.


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

I have two tanks of equivalent (display) size (~70g) - one with a sump and one with a canister, both planted. I tend to prefer the sump. here are some pros:

-you have an area to deploy equipment without the need to worry about whether or not it looks nice. the most obvious point here is the heater. i use a 500w inline heater on the canister-filtered tank, and it works fine, but in the sump tank i'm able to use dual 200w probes on a more sophisticated temperature controller.

-you can have as much filtration as you want. in a freshwater setting (i.e., with no protein skimmer in there), you have tons of room for whatever sponges, floss, bio beads, etc you may want.

-depending on your overflow configuration, it can be much cleaner visually. in the other tank i have glass pipes which inevitably get pretty scummy.

-constant water level. while it's no less work to add water to top off the ATO reservoir vs. adding it to the tank itself, it keeps the display a bit more tidy (no band at the top of the tank from evaporation)

-more overall water volume.

-surface skimming by default.

-lots of surface agitation and good gas exchange.

now, some cons:

-if you acquire pest snails (as i have done), they can partially block your primary overflow (my primary overflow has a tunable diaphragm to control flow and, therefore, noise). every. damn. day. ugh. it makes what would otherwise be a very quiet and stable design noisy and volatile.

-i think it would be difficult to have a sump be nearly as quiet as a good canister filter. at a minimum, you'd want to really do your homework and get the quietest return pump you can. you may still need to do some vibration mitigation with soft tubing and/or silicone. i didn't skimp on my return pump and it's still quite a bit louder than a canister (using an FX4 in the other tank).

-cleaning the sump *can* be a pain, depending on how you configure it. but, even if it's well-configured, this isn't something you can pick up and tip over the sink after placing your biomedia in a bucket. any crud in the bottom of your sump will need to be sucked out. since your sump is probably near floor level, a simple siphon isn't going to cut it. you'll need a utility pump for this. i find it to be a much more involved process than a cleanout of the canister.

-you may have less flexibility on your return (i.e., flow) position. you can use loc-line and nozzles to customize your flow.

-i think it's a little more difficult to achieve good co2 saturation with a sump. i have it dialed in now, but it was tricky at first. my eventual solution was a 20" cerges reactor (which sits in the sump). this is powered off the (overpowered) return pump, but all flow doesn't go through the reactor. to get enough flow in the tank, there's way too much flow in the reactor, unless you have a bypass. my return line splits off to the reactor and back from the reactor onto the main return line. in between the split off to and return from the reactor is a ball valve which is partially closed. this forces some (but not all!) water to the reactor. in the line back from the reactor, there is also a ball valve. this one lets you control reactor back pressure, which is useful for increasing dissolution and also - critically - for burping the reactor when it gets an air pocket. without this i had to try and tip the reactor to get rid of the air pockets, and this was verging on impossible because it was in the sump. this is a pretty simple setup in that it only requires one pump, you just have to overbuy on the pump in terms of GPH.

-critters will find their way into the sump. many shrimp have met their end in the primary overflow diaphragm, for example. 

-feeding can be more difficult because any floating food will go straight into the overflow. you'll probably want to turn the return pump off for feedings, which may cause other problems (see air bubbles in the reactor, for example)


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## Sordbodan (Oct 25, 2016)

Hendy8888 said:


> I don't think you will regret a sump, here is my build journal for some ideas if you want.
> https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?p=11103815


Thanks for your reply. I actually follow your thread in gtaaquaria. It gave me the inspiration to try a high tech high tank. I wasn’t aware you were on here. 

Where did you get your tank by the way? I need to find a drilled tank like yours and also a stand since there is no way I can build a stand as fine as yours.


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## Sordbodan (Oct 25, 2016)

EmotionalFescue said:


> I have two tanks of equivalent (display) size (~70g) - one with a sump and one with a canister, both planted. I tend to prefer the sump. here are some pros:
> 
> -you have an area to deploy equipment without the need to worry about whether or not it looks nice. the most obvious point here is the heater. i use a 500w inline heater on the canister-filtered tank, and it works fine, but in the sump tank i'm able to use dual 200w probes on a more sophisticated temperature controller.
> 
> ...


Wow- this is a very informative post. I appreciate your insights. It was also good to get your experience on CO2 reactors. Do you have pics or better yet a build thread?


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

Sordbodan said:


> Wow- this is a very informative post. I appreciate your insights. It was also good to get your experience on CO2 reactors. Do you have pics or better yet a build thread?


No journal for that tank. Here are a couple of pics though. First is with the ATO reservoir removed during a sump clean. Second is with it back in place.

https://imgur.com/a/Kpyq1lu

https://imgur.com/a/NRR9tsI

Note the quick releases. They're critical for being able to painlessly remove the reactor for cleaning.


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## Sordbodan (Oct 25, 2016)

EmotionalFescue said:


> Sordbodan said:
> 
> 
> > Wow- this is a very informative post. I appreciate your insights. It was also good to get your experience on CO2 reactors. Do you have pics or better yet a build thread?
> ...


Thanks for the pics. Is that a Red Sea reefer 250? How do you like it? And is the tall chamber the reactor? It looks like you connected it with a manifold? What make is it? And what return pump do you use. Phew 😅. I guess I’ll end the barrage of questions now.


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

Sordbodan said:


> EmotionalFescue said:
> 
> 
> > Sordbodan said:
> ...


It's a 300xl. Love the tank. The tall purple thing is the reactor. It's a 20 inch RO housing that I (lightly) DIY'd. 

The reactor is going back to the main return line. Kinda hard to tell in those pics because of the angle. here's a close-up of where it reconnects to the main return line above the bypass valve:

https://imgur.com/a/lqje8yE

Return pump is an eheim 1262.


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## Sordbodan (Oct 25, 2016)

EmotionalFescue said:


> Sordbodan said:
> 
> 
> > EmotionalFescue said:
> ...


Thanks. So if I understand it correctly, you bifurcate your return line into two. One feeds into the reactor and the other to the tank. The output of the reactor rejoins the line to the tank. You use a ball valve to regulate flow to the CO2 regulator. Also, is the RO canister design yours or is it something I can find on the web?

Also I am glad to hear you like the tank. I decided to go the marine tank route as well, given my limited abilities for building a stand. REd Sea 350 is one of the ones I am considering.


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

Sordbodan said:


> EmotionalFescue said:
> 
> 
> > Sordbodan said:
> ...


Here's a diagram to clarify. The reactor design isn't mine. There are some instructions floating around. Search for DIY Cerges reactors.


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## Sordbodan (Oct 25, 2016)

Perfect. Thanks. 


EmotionalFescue said:


> Sordbodan said:
> 
> 
> > EmotionalFescue said:
> ...


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## Sarlindescent (May 14, 2015)

EmotionalFescue said:


> now, some cons:
> 
> -if you acquire pest snails (as i have done), they can partially block your primary overflow (my primary overflow has a tunable diaphragm to control flow and, therefore, noise). every. damn. day. ugh. it makes what would otherwise be a very quiet and stable design noisy and volatile.


My 180 is using a synergy reef overflow box with 1.5" pipes. I had the same problem since I was only pumping 4-500ish gph. This meant on a 1.5" gate valve, it was only opened a sliver. I reduced the primary drain to 1" with a 1" gate and now this is no longer an issue since the gate is opened half way or so.





EmotionalFescue said:


> now, some cons:
> 
> 
> 
> -i think it would be difficult to have a sump be nearly as quiet as a good canister filter. at a minimum, you'd want to really do your homework and get the quietest return pump you can. you may still need to do some vibration mitigation with soft tubing and/or silicone. i didn't skimp on my return pump and it's still quite a bit louder than a canister (using an FX4 in the other tank).




Couple things can be done for this. Oversized DC return pumps are the way to go for that noise. Have it set to under 50% and you won't hear it. Second, use a piece of foam or a silicon pad under the return to isolate the pump from the sump. Lastly, as you mentioned, from return to hard plumping or return to tank, use a soft line of some sorts. This will block vibrations from the pump to the plumbing. Overall, my 180 w/ 75 sump is almost as quiet as my Nuvo 30 with a 306. The only noise from the 180 is a water trickle from the overflow box. Not a fan of the synergy reef design.





EmotionalFescue said:


> now, some cons:
> 
> -cleaning the sump *can* be a pain, depending on how you configure it. but, even if it's well-configured, this isn't something you can pick up and tip over the sink after placing your biomedia in a bucket. any crud in the bottom of your sump will need to be sucked out. since your sump is probably near floor level, a simple siphon isn't going to cut it. you'll need a utility pump for this. i find it to be a much more involved process than a cleanout of the canister.




This is why I use filter floss at the first step. If you keep most out, the major sump cleaning is a 6 month to a year. Then I use a maxijet pump so I can add a hose to the intake and outlet of the pump. If you want you hands wet, I have heard good things about the VCA MJ vacuum attachment. There is also a home depot 5 gallon bucket shop vac lid.





EmotionalFescue said:


> -feeding can be more difficult because any floating food will go straight into the overflow. you'll probably want to turn the return pump off for feedings, which may cause other problems (see air bubbles in the reactor, for example)



I use TLF feeding ring for pellets.
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/magfeeder-magnetic-feeding-ring-two-little-fishies.html


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

Sarlindescent said:


> My 180 is using a synergy reef overflow box with 1.5" pipes. I had the same problem since I was only pumping 4-500ish gph. This meant on a 1.5" gate valve, it was only opened a sliver. I reduced the primary drain to 1" with a 1" gate and now this is no longer an issue since the gate is opened half way or so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



thanks for the feedback!


the eheim is quiet enough, but if i were to do it again, i would definitely go for a dc return pump.


interesting point on the primary drain pipe diameter - makes sense. the red seas use metric plumbing, which makes tinkering with it a bit of a pain, but i will definitely look into this!


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## Sordbodan (Oct 25, 2016)

Double post.


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## simplechamp (Jul 22, 2012)

EmotionalFescue said:


> the eheim is quiet enough, but if i were to do it again, i would definitely go for a dc return pump.



+1 to this


I started out my sump with a traditional AC fixed-output return pump (basically a Danner MagDrive clone). It did the job but was quite loud. The only way to adjust flow was throttling it with a valve which caused it to get even louder. Switched over to an adjustable DC pump rated for same flow (actually 100gph more) and it was a night and day difference. At the lower flow settings it's silent, and at higher flow I can hear the tiniest bit of humming but only if I get my head right down near the sump. Most DC pumps have nice additional features like ramped startup, auto shutoff if it runs dry, a pause/feeding button. Both of my pumps were the same price, so IMHO it's a no-brainer


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## Hendy8888 (Mar 6, 2008)

Sordbodan said:


> Thanks for your reply. I actually follow your thread in gtaaquaria. It gave me the inspiration to try a high tech high tank. I wasn’t aware you were on here.
> 
> Where did you get your tank by the way? I need to find a drilled tank like yours and also a stand since there is no way I can build a stand as fine as yours.


I'm a little more active here, been getting lazy on gtaaquaria. I purchased the tank from Kraken's reef in Toronto that's now closed. It's a custom order from a Chinese manufacturer that I'm not certain of. At the time Aqua Inspiration was importing Fire Aqua tanks and I suspect it's from the same manufacturer. The closest thing I have found recently is Yi Ding rimless tanks from M&J Aquarium. It's another Chinese manufacturer with nice work, I'm not sold on the 45 degree cut corners but it's worth a call to see if they take custom orders.


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## Sordbodan (Oct 25, 2016)

Thanks. Any good ones that won’t break the bank? I used Jabao but they seemed to be short lived. I also saw Current USA ones but there seems to be little info on those. 



simplechamp said:


> EmotionalFescue said:
> 
> 
> > the eheim is quiet enough, but if i were to do it again, i would definitely go for a dc return pump.
> ...


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## Sordbodan (Oct 25, 2016)

Thanks. I actually have a 23G Fireaqua and it is pretty nice. I did visit M&J. I question the mitered corners as well but I’ll reach out to them to see if they’ll drill the tanks. I also found pureocean in Hamilton who imports Neptunian Cube - another Chinese manufacturer - but he does not have any in the showroom yet so don’t know if the quality. I’ll continue looking. 



Hendy8888 said:


> Sordbodan said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for your reply. I actually follow your thread in gtaaquaria. It gave me the inspiration to try a high tech high tank. I wasn’t aware you were on here.
> ...


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## Sarlindescent (May 14, 2015)

Sordbodan said:


> Thanks. Any good ones that won’t break the bank? I used Jabao but they seemed to be short lived. I also saw Current USA ones but there seems to be little info on those.



My choices so far have been Jebao and Reef Octopus. The RO works great, but are pricey. The Jebaos seem to be a 25% crap rate. If it lasts more than a couple months, it will last years. If it doesn't.... But Jebaos are around 1/2 price or so. On black friday, RO always has some good sales, 20-25% off. The ecotech vectra line are good, but pricier and don't always go on sale. Or if your rolling in the dough, abyzz are amazing for longevity, but pricey is an understatement. They last 10 years plus though and are insanely quite and reliable. Most freshwater people don't have the money invested in stock though to justify an abyzz.


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## Sordbodan (Oct 25, 2016)

Sarlindescent said:


> Sordbodan said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks. Any good ones that won’t break the bank? I used Jabao but they seemed to be short lived. I also saw Current USA ones but there seems to be little info on those.
> ...


Thanks. I wasn’t aware Reef Octopus made pumps. I’ll check them out. I agree that freshwater stock is much more affordable and hardier in cases of pump failures - so I do not want to break the bank. I just wanted something that is less of a gamble than Jabao. With Cheaper Asian manufacturers, quality control is more flexible. Whereas more mainstream brands aim at 1% or lower failure rate, the cheaper manufacturers are content with 5%, 10% or higher failure rates - and that is how they keep their costs down. And pumps can fail in the most bizarre ways, where the flow rate varies in time, leak electricity into the water and others that require time and effort to figure out. Not to say it doesn’t happen to major manufacturers by the way - it just happens to them at a much lower rate 1 in 100 as opposed to 1 in 10, for example.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

been running 2 jebao (DCT 6000, DCP 8000) pumps for at least 4 years now and they haven't given me a problem yet. Think my Jebao pp-8 wave maker powerhead thing crapped out in like 1.5 years though, might be from the lack of maintenance though


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## [email protected] (Oct 20, 2020)

I have a small bristlenose orange pleco and a cory fishes that went for a ride in my sump a couple times and thought they were getting in through the holes in overflow so I put a nylon screen around it but they still got in and I realized it was through the gap under my return pipe they were entering so I blocked the gap and removed the screen enclosure I had build and everything has been good since .


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## Oughtsix (Apr 8, 2011)

EmotionalFescue said:


> -constant water level. while it's no less work to add water to top off the ATO reservoir vs. adding it to the tank itself, it keeps the display a bit more tidy (no band at the top of the tank from evaporation)


I think this is a very underrated advantage of a sump! I couldn't agree with you more!




EmotionalFescue said:


> -cleaning the sump *can* be a pain, depending on how you configure it. but, even if it's well-configured, this isn't something you can pick up and tip over the sink after placing your biomedia in a bucket. any crud in the bottom of your sump will need to be sucked out. since your sump is probably near floor level, a simple siphon isn't going to cut it. you'll need a utility pump for this. i find it to be a much more involved process than a cleanout of the canister.


I hated trying to clean the crud that settles out of the water in the bottom of my sump! So I lined the bottom of my sump with a layer of cut to fit filter pad (The blue on one side white on the other side stuff). The crud now settles out of the water onto the filter pad. I pull the filter pad, rinse it then replace it. This has pretty much eliminated the need to suck out the bottom of the sump.

P.S. I purposely designed my sump to be very simple and very easy to maintain including being very easy to line the bottom with a filter pad and not have to remove a bunch of equipment to pull the pad to clean it. 




EmotionalFescue said:


> -critters will find their way into the sump. many shrimp have met their end in the primary overflow diaphragm, for example.


LOL! I have guppies that live in my sump. I have no idea how they make it past the filter pad and drip tray in my sump to make it into the bottom of the sump????... but some how they do! ...and they live down there for a few months between sump cleanings seemingly quite happily. 




EmotionalFescue said:


> -feeding can be more difficult because any floating food will go straight into the overflow. you'll probably want to turn the return pump off for feedings, which may cause other problems (see air bubbles in the reactor, for example)


I love the Jebao pumps. There is a feeding button that will turn off the pump for 5 minutes or so then automatically turn the sump back on. Works great! With my old pump I would turn it off, feed the fish and walk away only to find that I forgot to turn the pump back on several hours later.

Another idea that I came across is a floating feeding ring. It is just a circle of buoyant material (closed cell foam) that is anchored to the side/top of the tank with a suction cup to keep it from being pulled towards the overflow. You put the food inside the ring and it keeps the surface skimming of the sump overflow from sucking the food down immediately. From what I have read the fish learn that the ring is the spot to feed quite quickly.



...Just a couple thoughts to spur your imagination on how to reduce the work of aquariums with sumps and aquariums in general.


P.S. My oldest Jebao pump is about 6 years old now and has never had any problems in this time.


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## Bratmanxj (Jul 25, 2013)

Sarlindescent said:


> I like and dislike the sponges. They are 3" thick and slightly oversized in width, 1/2" or so. The friction allows them to stay in place. It is a very effective baffle system and not having to top off is convenient. The major downside, which only happens once a year or so, is cleaning them. Its a giant 18"x18"x3" block of fish $#@!. They are heavy and I have to load them into a rubbermaid and spray them a ton. It's very messy.





mourip said:


> Great design. So simple.
> 
> Some questions...
> 
> ...


I run a 20g sump on my 90g planted tank. The sump is simply 3 - 2" thick Porret Foam "walls" propped upright in the middle of the 20g tank with inlet on one side and the DC submersible pump on the other. 100% flow through the three sheets, going from coarse (10 pore per inch) to fine (20 & 30 pore per inch) foam. I purchased the Porret from Steffan at SwissTropicals. There is enough bio-growth on the foam to support my tank.

I agree that the cleaning of the foam is a messy & somewhat tedious job, but I only do it once every 4 months and to ONLY 1 sheet of foam. Each piece of foam sees about a year of service before cleaning. I take the foam outside with the garden hose (or in the tub with a shower wand) and smack it around while flushing with water. Takes about 10-15 min to flush all the solids trapped in the foam.

Edit: attached photo from some early testing. BeAnAnimal overflow down to the sump showing the three "walls" of foam. My Pencilfish that take a ride down the drain can comfortably live in the sump for a week or two with no ill effects. I actually have a colony of assassin snails in the sump for pest control & cleanup.


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## mourip (Mar 15, 2020)

Bratmanxj said:


> I run a 20g sump on my 90g planted tank. The sump is simply 3 - 2" thick Porret Foam "walls" propped upright in the middle of the 20g tank with inlet on one side and the DC submersible pump on the other. 100% flow through the three sheets, going from coarse (10 pore per inch) to fine (20 & 30 pore per inch) foam. I purchased the Porret from Steffan at SwissTropicals. There is enough bio-growth on the foam to support my tank.


I would love to see any current photos of your tank. Thanks!


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

Bratmanxj said:


> I run a 20g sump on my 90g planted tank. The sump is simply 3 - 2" thick Porret Foam "walls" propped upright in the middle of the 20g tank with inlet on one side and the DC submersible pump on the other. 100% flow through the three sheets, going from coarse (10 pore per inch) to fine (20 & 30 pore per inch) foam. I purchased the Porret from Steffan at SwissTropicals. There is enough bio-growth on the foam to support my tank.
> 
> I agree that the cleaning of the foam is a messy & somewhat tedious job, but I only do it once every 4 months and to ONLY 1 sheet of foam. Each piece of foam sees about a year of service before cleaning. I take the foam outside with the garden hose (or in the tub with a shower wand) and smack it around while flushing with water. Takes about 10-15 min to flush all the solids trapped in the foam.
> 
> Edit: attached photo from some early testing. BeAnAnimal overflow down to the sump showing the three "walls" of foam. My Pencilfish that take a ride down the drain can comfortably live in the sump for a week or two with no ill effects. I actually have a colony of assassin snails in the sump for pest control & cleanup.


I would also like to see more of this! I am planning to set up a new tank next year in the 75 gal range and was planning to do basically this same sump design, though I was considering doing a 200 micron mesh sock on the main two drains (not the emergency drain, obviously) to keep the sump cleaner.


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

So in my 110g stock tank, I have both a canister and a sump. 
The Evolution of my 110g Stock Tank


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## Bratmanxj (Jul 25, 2013)

ElleDee said:


> I would also like to see more of this! I am planning to set up a new tank next year in the 75 gal range and was planning to do basically this same sump design, though I was considering doing a 200 micron mesh sock on the main two drains (not the emergency drain, obviously) to keep the sump cleaner.


I had a wet/dry type sump before this and if I didn't notice a fish take a trip down the drain it would die on the filter pad / sock. You'd then get a spike and put the rest of the tank in jeopardy. The way I have it set up you've got 8-ish gallons of refugium for any thrill-seeker fish to collect their thoughts. I did a lot of research and picked the brain of a guy on the Cichlid forum who did twin rubbermade tub sumps on his 240g Frontosa tank. He'd routinely find a whole other ecosystem growing in his sumps during clean-up.

I've since added a 3D concrete background to the tank and pressurized CO2 in one of the discharge tubes of the BeAnAnimal overflow. I didn't see the point of making a full reactor when I already had downward flow to dissolve the CO2 with a simple nipple in the PVC drain. The sump design doesn't have much turbulence so off-gassing before the pump return isn't a problem. My 2 150w eheim jager heaters are submerged in the sump next to the 1000gpm Jebco adjustable DC pump.

I also have a continuous water change system with a 1" bulkhead on the 20g sump and 3/4" vinyl hose running into the dinning room wall and downstairs to the workshop sink. There is a 1/4" "fridge tap" on the house water and a valve at the tank to control the flow rate of fresh water to the tank. I'm 100-ish gallon running capacity and the system changes about 4-6g per day on a slow drip.

I started off with a Lake Tanganyika - Mpulunga BioTope for a few years with hardy plants. The Neolamprologus tretocephalus (baby Frontosa!) got a little to reckless and killed most of my plants. I've since gone more Amazon - Northern Brazil Biotop with Apistos & Checkerboards.

Most of my photos are a bit outdated and I haven't kept up the tank as nice as I would like. I've chopped up my plantings this summer to get my cousin off the ground with his planted Blue Acara tank. I've posted a few more photos for reference and I'll be glad to talk details if anyone wants....


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

Bratmanxj said:


> I had a wet/dry type sump before this and if I didn't notice a fish take a trip down the drain it would die on the filter pad / sock. You'd then get a spike and put the rest of the tank in jeopardy. The way I have it set up you've got 8-ish gallons of refugium for any thrill-seeker fish to collect their thoughts. I did a lot of research and picked the brain of a guy on the Cichlid forum who did twin rubbermade tub sumps on his 240g Frontosa tank. He'd routinely find a whole other ecosystem growing in his sumps during clean-up.
> 
> I've since added a 3D concrete background to the tank and pressurized CO2 in one of the discharge tubes of the BeAnAnimal overflow. I didn't see the point of making a full reactor when I already had downward flow to dissolve the CO2 with a simple nipple in the PVC drain. The sump design doesn't have much turbulence so off-gassing before the pump return isn't a problem. My 2 150w eheim jager heaters are submerged in the sump next to the 1000gpm Jebco adjustable DC pump.
> 
> ...


This is excellent, thank you for the write up. 

Yeah, killing livestock in the sock was my main concern about having it. How polished would you say your water is with your sump?

Is adding CO2 to an overflow drain line a typical place to put it? I don't run CO2 and am on the fence on if I want to in the future, but I wanted to design this system so that if I made up my mind about it I could add it with a minimum of hassle.


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## SardinePatheNews (Nov 12, 2019)

ive an odd set up on my 48" as part experiment/part using what i had around. So the frame is an old angle iron job dating from 70s or 80s made for 2 tanks one above the other, the tank is a 90s all glass and sits on the lower shelf meaning there is a anagle iron rim/shelf just above it. Over this is a wooden hood with front half hinged. The canister filter under the tank is empty, no media at all (and no cleaning other than annual de clag the impeller) , its just a way to keep the hardware outside the tank. this outputs to a diy palastic crate and lava rock shower filter on top of one end of the hood that drains into a planter trough (with pothos etc in it) running the rest of the hood length and then a drain tube back into the tank. It also extends a few inches past the tank and i have a hose pipe fitting there so can block the tank return drain and feed the return flow down a hose out to the garden at water changes. Not really a sump or a canister but kind of Frankenstein mix of the two..but no need for auto top off. I does mean you need to be the kind of person that likes to see the workings around the tank rather than some minimalist cabinetry though


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## Bratmanxj (Jul 25, 2013)

ElleDee said:


> This is excellent, thank you for the write up.
> 
> Yeah, killing livestock in the sock was my main concern about having it. How polished would you say your water is with your sump?
> 
> Is adding CO2 to an overflow drain line a typical place to put it? I don't run CO2 and am on the fence on if I want to in the future, but I wanted to design this system so that if I made up my mind about it I could add it with a minimum of hassle.


I have a simple nipple at the bottom of the main discharge pipe into the sump, from there the bubble tumble "up" the drain and mostly dissolve into the water flowing down. Seemed simple in practice and cheap to implement vs making a reactor to put on the pump return line to the tank. I obviously don't have a majorly planted tank but I have enough CO2 to grow the plants I keep at a sufficient rate. I don't believe I've ever seen anyone else do it this way, but I know some that feed into a canister filter for similar results of "contact time" with the water to dissolve the CO2.

I have 3 layers of 2" foam going from coarse 10 pore-per-in to 20 and then fine 30 pore-per-inch. I've had very clear water no mater the tank stocking, but I have good Lake Michigan "Chicago" soft tap water to begin with. I'll get mulm build-up on the pump side of sump at my 4 month clean-up but it mostly settles and does not get returned to the tank. 5 minutes with a vac line and the sump is clean, 5 minutes in the main tank to catch the stuff that collects in the corners, and 20 minutes to pull one of the foam walls and clean....that's my entire service.

My buddy got into fish because of my tank. He has a 72' bow with twin Fluval 405s that he has to tear one down every month for cleaning plus weekly water changes. We keep talking about putting a sump on his just because of the ease of maintenance.


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## number1sixerfan (Nov 10, 2006)

Somewhat reviving this. I'm thinking about purchasing a waterbox aquarium with built in sump. Pricey I know, but that's not an issue to me, plus the tanks are quality and get a lot of good reviews. I'm still on the fence of with and without a sump, and only because I found out that I may need to travel for a few weeks at a time in my new role. 

I'd have someone check my home/tank once a week, but is there any reason to think I'd have to worry about being away from a sump'ed tank in comparison to a canister? Especially if it's a foolproof (me, I'm the fool lol) professionally made sump? 

I've just never had much if any issues with a canister.. a bit paranoid. Thanks in advance for any help or opinions!


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## Sarlindescent (May 14, 2015)

number1sixerfan said:


> Somewhat reviving this. I'm thinking about purchasing a waterbox aquarium with built in sump. Pricey I know, but that's not an issue to me, plus the tanks are quality and get a lot of good reviews. I'm still on the fence of with and without a sump, and only because I found out that I may need to travel for a few weeks at a time in my new role.
> 
> I'd have someone check my home/tank once a week, but is there any reason to think I'd have to worry about being away from a sump'ed tank in comparison to a canister? Especially if it's a foolproof (me, I'm the fool lol) professionally made sump?
> 
> I've just never had much if any issues with a canister.. a bit paranoid. Thanks in advance for any help or opinions!


The only possible concern with leaving a sumped tank depends on the design of the sump. This issue would be that the pump can run dry if evaporation is too much during the time you are gone. The way I resolved this for my 180 was I only have baffles on the drain pipe section to route through filter floss. Then I use matten filter for "baffles", requiring 40ish gallons of evaporation before my pump runs dry.

The alternative method that is used all the time on reef tanks is an ATO, auto top off. I have 2 tunze osmolators on my reefs and have been very pleased with them. Basically, you have an external container of replacement water and a float switch in the pump section. When the water evaporates, the float triggers a pump to turn on and refill the tank.

Even with a canister, too much evaporation can be an issue depending on drain level or plant height. If it evaporates believe plant levels, the plants can dry out. To help with this issue, I would look into building a semi air tight lid. This can reduce evaporation significantly, in my experience by around 90%.


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## number1sixerfan (Nov 10, 2006)

Sarlindescent said:


> The only possible concern with leaving a sumped tank depends on the design of the sump. This issue would be that the pump can run dry if evaporation is too much during the time you are gone. The way I resolved this for my 180 was I only have baffles on the drain pipe section to route through filter floss. Then I use matten filter for "baffles", requiring 40ish gallons of evaporation before my pump runs dry.
> 
> The alternative method that is used all the time on reef tanks is an ATO, auto top off. I have 2 tunze osmolators on my reefs and have been very pleased with them. Basically, you have an external container of replacement water and a float switch in the pump section. When the water evaporates, the float triggers a pump to turn on and refill the tank.
> 
> Even with a canister, too much evaporation can be an issue depending on drain level or plant height. If it evaporates believe plant levels, the plants can dry out. To help with this issue, I would look into building a semi air tight lid. This can reduce evaporation significantly, in my experience by around 90%.


I really appreciate this reply. It's very helpful and does make sense. Thinking through it more, it probably makes sense not to go this route since it'll be weeks at a time away. Just a lot of complicated variables and combined with not being here probably equates to just a slight risk. 

I do have to say though, with all of the research I've done recently, sumps just seem so much more attractive than canisters and I'd go that route for sure if I didn't have the job change.


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

One thing to note about the amount of water immediately available to the pump... If your drains become clogged, the amount of water in your pump chamber is how much ends up on your floor. A smallish volume pump chamber with an ATO is a safeguard against this. If the drains clog, you may get a motor burnout, but no flood.

This is probably unlikely with a redundant drain setup and the downside is the need to regularly top off the ATO reservoir.

Just something to be aware of.


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## Oughtsix (Apr 8, 2011)

My Jebao DCP-20000 has a run dry detect and is supposed to shut down the pump if it detects from the current being drawn that the pump is not pumping water but is running dry. I am guessing that this is a feature somewhat common to DC pumps in the aquarium trade.


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## ZChalk (Jan 13, 2021)

If you are gone for weeks, I would say a canister filter is the way to go since it's pretty much straight forward and somewhat intuitive if someone is coming over weekly to monitor the tank. With a sump and ATO, you need to write up instructions on "what if" scenarios or train them on what not to do. People don't realize that the water level in the tank never changes but the sump does. I would check out the reef forums for tips and tricks too if you want advice as I would think it is the norm for medium to large tanks to run a sump. 

Also get one of those bluetooth water detectors and put it on the floor and maybe inside the cabinetry on the floor. If there are leaks it'll alert you immediately and then you can go into panic mode. lol.


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