# Char's 46g Planted Community Journal - New fish pics! 27/01/09



## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Yay, my first tank journal and my first real aquarium!

I went to Big Al's yesterday and maxed out my spending limit on a brand new 46g bowfront tank, I intend to turn it into a planted community. But first I need to get it set up. Until then, enjoy these pics while I get the substrate in and figure out how to work my canister.

Equipment-
-36x12x20, 46g bowfront

-Nova Extreme 2x39w T5

-Rena xp2

-Rena 200w smart heater

-3 bags of fluorite original


The tank!.....empty.


My lighting. It's x2 39w T5. I plan to run that for now, and in a year or so I'll pick up another one of these and a CO2 system. I'll be using excel until then.


The canister. Yes I've upgraded from HOBs!


And here's a shot of my other tank, 10g standard. Not what I want it to be really. Still, I like it! I'll be transferring all of these fish, except the platies, into the 46 when it is cycled, along with all the plants except the vals at the back, plus a ton of other plants. I'll be using this as a fry raising tank, because that little floating trap in the top left is ugly. And don't worry, I'm using fluorite this time instead of that junky regular gravel I have in this one.

And thats it for the first installment! I love (constructive) critism and any advice you can give me along the way.
Oh ya, I don't really know if it really is a 56k warning, but I put it in anyways just to be safe! 

Cheers!


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

so you will be going low tech for a year?


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> so you will be going low tech for a year?


If low tech means medium light and no CO2, then yes I will be. Whenever I have the money I'll upgrade my lights and put in a CO2 system. But first I'll be seeing how everything works out this way. I have about 1.8wpg of T-5, individual reflectors, so my plant choices aren't too limited but I won't be able to get everything I want...yet. 

Do you think I could keep a red-colored plant like ludwigia or something in this light and still have show some color?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

medium light? sorry to burst your bubble but you dont even have 2wpg. no thats low light. medium light is 3wpg to 4wpg, above that is high.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> medium light? sorry to burst your bubble but you dont even have 2wpg. no thats low light. medium light is 3wpg to 4wpg, above that is high.


Really? I always thought 1-2 was low, 2-3 medium, 3+ high. Guess it depends who you ask. I shall call it...low-ish light.

But it's all about the lumens really. With individual reflectors and the extra bang that T5 puts out, I have roughly the equivalent of 2.3wpg of CF. Still, kind of low, which is good, because I won't need CO2 right away.

We'll see how it turns out!


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

I think its low medium, t5's are great. Look forward to see this thing watered-up


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## Coltonorr (Mar 12, 2008)

Char, first of all good luck with your new tank...
I would call your lighting moderate as well, like you I think low light is 1-2 wpg, anything over 3 is high light, at least in my book...


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'm running this fixture over my 46gal bowfront (2x21watt), and I consider it low light. However, my red swords are nice and RED. :thumbsup: 

http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsU...6/cl0/coralifefwt5aqualightdoublestriplight36

I agree with Char- with a 2x36 watt T5 that puts you in "medium" lighting. T5 and PC are just very different lighting.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Thanks guys!

And a quick update!



I filled it with water, made the mistake of leaving the last half a bag out in the rain for 5 minutes and decided to fill it anyways. Oh well, lesson learned. Really hope it clears up soon.

I know what you guys are thinking.....
Wow! I wish my tank looked like that! 

I stole the little piece of mopani driftwood from the old tank, and I have a taller piece of malaysian soaking right now. Other than that I have no idea what I'm going to aquascape. Put random stuff in and see what looks nice.

I've been setting this tank up since 7am and its 7:30pm now.....phew. I'm not as fast and efficient as some of the other guys here. :fish1:

But anyways, tomorrow afternoon I plan to get the lights and canopy on, maybe the filter too if I have time. See ya!


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

And now I have some quick questions about the lighting and my xp2 canister.

1) The Light fixture came with a 10000k bulb and a "freshwater" bulb that glows pink. Is the pink bulb just as good/better in some ways than the 10000k? Or should I replace it with another 10000k?

2) The Rena xp2 comes with a bio-zorb, but I don't like chemical filtration. Can I replace it with a microfilter or a foam pad?

3) How often do I replace the media? It has....
- Foam 20ppi
- Foam 30ppi
- Filtration pad
- Bio Chem Stars

Do I really need to replace any of these, how often? Or can I just wash them? How often?

Thanks!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

The pink bulb is great- I'd leave it as is unless you decide you don't like the way it looks (personally, I really like pink and 10k combos). If you do replace it, I'd go with a 10k/6700k, personally.

No, you don't want to use the bio-zorb pouch, you do want phosphates in your tank for the plants. Personally, I put Purigen in mine instead, but you can certainly replace with any of the other sponges or biomedia if you'd like. You really can put just about whatever media you want in a canister- that's why they're so great. :thumbsup:

How often you need to clean out and replace your pads will differ from tank to tank somewhat. You shouldn't ever need to replace your foam pads, just occasionally squeeze them out in some tank water to keep them from getting clogged (I do this probably once a month/once every other month). The biostars won't need to be replaced unless/until they fall apart (IDK how long they last, but I'd guess at least a few years).

I do replace the floss/floss pads pretty frequently, probably every 2 weeks. I use both cheap polyester floss and Micron filter pads in mine, and usually need to replace the Micron pad at least once every few months.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

I replaced the chemical media with another 30ppi filtration pad, and I took out the microfilter pad and also replaced it with a 30ppi. Mainly because I've heard that you have to replace the micropad after every month, and I don't want to have to take apart my filter a week after it cycles, you know.

I also picked up a very nice red ludwigia. Its in my 10g right now until the tank cycles. Mainly because I don't want to leave all my lights on during a cycle and create and algae bloom for a couple little plants.

Pics coming soon!


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Question.....

I have the filter set up, the RENA xp2, and there is a tiny bit of air in it. About 1/2" from the surface. Yet it is still pumping water. Is it ok for there to be a tiny bit of air in the canister or should I not be able to see any at all?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

There shouldn't be any in it at all. You can play with the clamps a little to let it out (sometimes that works) but what I do is I fill mine in the sink and put the top on there and seal the clamps so it's already full when I hook it back up to the tank. Pretty easy to do with the nifty handles on the top, and no air ever in the filter. :thumbsup:


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> There shouldn't be any in it at all. You can play with the clamps a little to let it out (sometimes that works) but what I do is I fill mine in the sink and put the top on there and seal the clamps so it's already full when I hook it back up to the tank. Pretty easy to do with the nifty handles on the top, and no air ever in the filter. :thumbsup:


Thanks Laur, I tried it and there's no air at all anymore!

Another question, how much surface movement should I be aiming for? The spray bar is pointed at a 55 degree angle from the substrate and there is no surface disturbance, but the the small amount of oil on the surface is moving around slightly. No little ripples or anything, but there is movement....good?

Also, how sloped should the substrate be? Right now its about 1"-1 1/2" at the front, 2" half way, and 4" at the back. Good?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

There's really no "right" or "wrong" for either of those questions, it's up to you how you want to do both depending on what you decide you want to achieve.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> There's really no "right" or "wrong" for either of those questions, it's up to you how you want to do both depending on what you decide you want to achieve.


 I want to achieve lots of nice plants! 

How sloped is yours then?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Mine is sloped about 3" from front to back, and also 3" from the left to the right.

If I had it to do over, I'd probably go with just sloped back to front, and made the slope much steeper, maybe 6-8".

My footprint is different than yours, though. I'd probably go for a 4" slope in a 46gal, personally.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

And the last update for awhile.



I have the lights on, and let me know what you think of the way I set up the filter. As you can see, the heater is in place of the intake tube. Set at 78 degrees F and keeping the tank at exactly that.

This will likely be the last update for awhile. I just started adding pure ammonia and there shouldn't be any breaking news until the tank is cycled. So sad.....


And another question.

In a tank with a canister filter....where do you mix the ferts and chemicals? In my old tank I would add the ferts right to the HOB so they would be mixed up a little before entering the area where the fish live....but I can't do that in a canister. So where should I mix the stuff?


Also, should I keep the tank warmer for the cycle? I like to keep it around 78F usually, but should I bump it up to 80/81/82F for the cycle?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

well its fine. the only thing is you just laid a peice of wood down on the substrate. stick it in so it stands upright (diagonal works best most of the time). it looks better in almost every tank that way.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> well its fine. the only thing is you just laid a peice of wood down on the substrate. stick it in so it stands upright (diagonal works best most of the time). it looks better in almost every tank that way.


I have another piece of of driftwood soaking right now, and I plan to do exactly that with it. And a might get a big fake branch and lay it on the back. Then just cover the entire thing with java moss.

Thanks for the advice though! 
Anyone think they could take a crack at some of my previous questions?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

sorry, didnt see em. here goes:

1. in the tank. i just drip it in while moving my hand over the tank so it doesnt concentrate in one area. you could just squirt it right in though, it wouldnt harm the fish since it dilutes pretty quickly. you could also squirt it in front of the filter output.

2. keep the temp as is. too high temps arent good either. but since you dont know the optimal temp for the bacteria (since you cant even be sure which ones are in your tank) just leave it at what you want it to be for the fish and plants. the bacteria will adapt to it (bacteria are extremely good at adapting, dont worry, they will be fine).


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Ok, thanks.

I put about 3/4mL, or 17 drops of pure ammonia right in front of the spray bar, for starters. I'll test the ammonia in an hour or so and see if I need to add anymore.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

More questions!

I added the ammonia, the 17 drops like I mentioned above, and I tested 1 hour later. The drip test still read 0 ammonia.

So I think I'll add another 50 or so drops and see if I can get a reading.

Anyways, my question is, how long should I wait after adding the ammonia before testing to get the most accurate result possible?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

dont add more. it might need to be decomposed. also, test your nitrites. maybe your water doesnt have as much chlorine and you got a good dose of bacteria.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

wait, does the bottle say its pure NH3?


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## fastfreddie (Sep 10, 2008)

Very cool! I love bow fronts. I have a Rena XP. You will love it!
Good luck!


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> wait, does the bottle say its pure NH3?


It says household ammonia, no added fragrances or color. For all your cleaning needs. I got it at wal-mart for $2 so I know its good stuff. 

And thanks!


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

then its probably not pure ammonia. so test the next chance you get, and if its still none, add more.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> then its probably not pure ammonia. so test the next chance you get, and if its still none, add more.


Ok, thanks.

I added more drops last night, tested it this morning and it was .25. Added a ton more drops and now its at 1ppm. Took me roughly 110 drops. So it probably is pretty watered down or something.

So I'm going to add another 100 drops and bring it up to 2ppm right now.

Thanks again!


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

the problem with the ammonia for cleaning is that they dilute it so the ph is closer to nuetral, so it doesnt eat away carpet fibers, paints, etc. if i were you, i would have just dumped some fish food in (1/4 of what you plan to feed the tank when fully stocked).


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> the problem with the ammonia for cleaning is that they dilute it so the ph is closer to nuetral, so it doesnt eat away carpet fibers, paints, etc. if i were you, i would have just dumped some fish food in (1/4 of what you plan to feed the tank when fully stocked).


Seems kind of messy....couldn't I just do the ammonia thing? It seems to work ok?

Wait.....so are you saying it could mess my pH up?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

sure it works. the fish food gets decomposed into different stuff, some of which is ammonia. but its easier to add fish food. it sink down pretty soon, and unless you went way overboard it doesnt stink or cloud the water or anything. 

did you think ammonia was nuetral? if it was it would be a pretty pathetic cleaning agent. im not sure but i think ammonia has a ph of around 11.5. thats why water changes are critical when you start up with AS (at least how i understand it, i may be wrong on this though). it leeches so much ammonia, that the water can actually become to acidic fo nitritifying bacteria. but dont worry, anything with the regular range of a cycle makes a negliable difference. and its unavoidable since no matter what you use to cycle, you need ammonia at some stage. think of it this way: lets say you have 5 ppm of ammonia. now thats 5 molecules that have a ph of 11.5, out of every million molecules, the rest of which are nuetral (assuming the water is pure). so the difference of those 5 molecules might not even show up on your ph test kit.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Ah, I see.

Well, my water is 7.2 now, and the tap water is also 7.2.

I'll keep an eye on the pH, and do a 90% water change (without touching the gravel or filter of course) before adding any fish.

I added another 120 drops about 4 hours ago, and the ammonia is around 3ppm right now. Which is good I guess, I've heard thats where I want it to be.

Another question, does it really matter to the bacteria if the ammonia is constantly moving around? Like if it's 3ppm one day, 1ppm the next, and 4ppm the next? As long as there is always some ammonia will there be some bacteria?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

when done cycling there should be no ammonia. but since you are adding raw ammonia, you will need to add some daily. the bacteria colonies will grow to be the exact size needed to process the ammonia so fast that within a 24 hours its 0 again. then you put in more, unless you have fish. that provides a steady supply of nitrites for bacteria to make them into nitrates. so you will need to add some ammonia daily, but it should drop to 0 pretty fast (though you add less then you did initially). 

yet another reason while putting in something to rot is better. it rots at a steady rate, supplying steady ammonia. i highly suggest putting in 3-4 flakes of food and just letting them stew and forget about the tank except for testing.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

There's always more than one way to skin a cat. IMO dosing straight up ammonia is nice b/c it's a more exact way to be sure what to dose w/out overdoing it. Fish flakes do work just fine, though.

Here's a few good articles on fishless cycling, in case you haven't already read them:

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article14.html

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/4468/cycling_without_fish.html


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Ok then, say I were to put in flakes.

How many should I put in?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

depends how many bacteria you need. i never had a 46 gallon. i would put in 1/2 or 1/3 of what you plan on feeding your fish, but wait you already put in some ammonia. make that a 1/4 of what you would feed the tank fully stocked.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

I don't even know what I'm going to be feeding my fish....I haven't had a 46 gal either....:hihi:

Question- Won't the flakes just get sucked up by the filter? Or is that the plan?

- How long would it take before the flakes begin producing ammonia?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

1. depends. its an aquarium filter, not a vacuum cleaner. it doesnt have that strong of an intake to pull the flake in from the other side of the tank. but if it drops really close, it may go in. it doesnt matter where the flake is in the tank. its in warm water with bacteria and its going to rot. the by-products of the bacteria are suspended in the water and get everywhere (including the NH3).

2. depends. it depends on the heat, the ph, the type of bacteria, the type of flakes, the amount of bacteria, etc. theoratically, the moment the first bacterium reaches it and starts to feed. but that wont create results that any test is sensitive enough to measure. id give it 3 days (it doesnt even take that long in my tanks).


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

OK, so I put in about 1/3 of what I would feed in Omega One Flakes. 

I also put in ammonia in the afternoon, by night its around 3-4ppm, and the late morning-early afternoon its down to 1-2ppm. So something is happening I think. Still no nitrite though.

I swished around some old filter media from the 10g yesterday. Hopefully lots of good stuff in there.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

your putting in way too much effort. its a cycle. just let the bacteria do their thing.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

The ammonia is going down but you're not reading nitrites? Are you getting nitrate readings?


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> The ammonia is going down but you're not reading nitrites? Are you getting nitrate readings?


I haven't tested for nitrate yet. I'll test for nitrate when I see some nitrite. So no, haven't seen any nitrites yet. But I'm only 5 days into the cycle.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

go ahead and test. the way i always see it written online is that the conversions are done by two different bacteria, so there would HAVE to be some lag time. but the way i read it in ecology of a planted aquarium, its done by the same bacteria, and nitrites are the results of it not completing the whole process. now most people DO see a lag, so they automatically believe its 2 bacteria. but if it processes ammonia, and makes nitrites for energy, and then nitrites to nitrates; most likely the bulk of the energy would be extracted in the conversion of ammonia to nitrites. so if it has access to lots of ammonia, it may not find it worthwhile to finish the proccess, but sometimes it might do it anyway.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Ok, I tested for nitrates. The result was a very surprising, and very clear 5ppm! 
So this leads to my obvious question.....WHAT!?!

I also tested everything else while I was at it.

Nitrites read an equally clear 0ppm.

And the ammonia test wasn't as clear, but I beleive it to be somewhere around 1.5ppm.

So...what does it all mean?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

it means your local water treatement doesnt kill the bacteria as much as most. when i cycle, it normally takes me 5 days. in one tank where i added a bit of mature filter media, the tank did not cycle at all. i could put fish straight in. for some people almost all the bacteria are dead and they would need to wait 3 weeks if they didnt seed the tank. 

it means, when you ammonia is 0, and you put in 1ppm of ammonia (thats what raw ammonia is good for), and the next day its 0 again and you still dont have nitrites, you can go get a few fish (not all of them. you never stock the tank all at once. i like to do it in fourths).


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> it means your local water treatement doesnt kill the bacteria as much as most. when i cycle, it normally takes me 5 days. in one tank where i added a bit of mature filter media, the tank did not cycle at all. i could put fish straight in. for some people almost all the bacteria are dead and they would need to wait 3 weeks if they didnt seed the tank.
> 
> it means, when you ammonia is 0, and you put in 1ppm of ammonia (thats what raw ammonia is good for), and the next day its 0 again and you still dont have nitrites, you can go get a few fish (not all of them. you never stock the tank all at once. i like to do it in fourths).


Hmmm....wow.

Are you absolutely certain of this?

I mean, my tap water has 5ppm nitrates normally, couldn't it just be sitting there?

Ok, when my ammonia gets lower....maybe tomorrow, I'll put in a couple zebra danios.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

oh, well if its your taps regular level, then no (unless you have plants already in there) it is not cycled.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Aha! I knew it was too good to be true....

So then where is all my ammonia going?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

???
is the tank planted yet? if so, the plants are soaking them up. if not, then they must be becoming nitrites or nitrates, theres nothing else that can happen to them.

if you end up with 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites and your nitrates went up some more from the 5, (like to 6 or 7) then its cycled.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Nope no plants....
If you see my last picture, its just a piece of wood. Maybe I'm reading them wrong.....

Anyways, I have another problem. My tap water is 7.2, yet my tank's pH has been steadily increasing. For the 5 days I've been monitering pH, here's the trend.

Day 1- 7.2
Day 2- 7.2
Day 3- 7.4
Day 4- 7.5
Day 5- 7.6

What do you think is causing this? Is it the pure ammonia, or could it be oxygen?
Is there any way I could keep it at a steady 7.2 with a kH buffer? 
How exactly do kH buffers work anyways, I mean, how do you use them properly?
Or could I just use the Seachem Acid buffers?
Should I get a kH test kit?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i doubt it. they are drop test right? most likely API? they are all pretty simple to do.

ugh. i hate explaining ph. to many things to it. ok here goes:
i dont know what you know, so ill start from the beginning. 7 is nuetral and not at all corrosive. 6.9-1 is acidic and corrosive, the further away from 7 the more corrosive; also, the degrees go exponentially (5 is 10 times more acidic then 6). acids are corrosive because they have positively charged hydrogens (basically, just protons) floating around in them. bases are basic (some people say alkaline, but that actually talks about the gH, not pH). they go from 7-14 and have OH- in them (negatively charged oxygen and hydrogen bound to each other). you mix negative OH and positve H you get two nuetral H and 1 nuetral O bound together. H2O. 
CO2 with water makes carbonic acid. any CO2 will lower your ph. ammonia happens to be a base with a ph over 11 i think. so that will raise you ph, the more you have, the higher it goes. i dont know about nitrites and nitrates though.

kh is carbonate hardness. basically, the higher it is, the more it takes for you ph to change. you cant add carbon without raising you ph. to lower you ph usually means lowering kh. however, it doesnt if you use CO2. and your plants will thank you for that.

so i suggest you get a kh test kit, find out what corrisponding ph using just CO2 will give you 30ppm and get a pressurized setup with a ph controller and a timer (ph controller for daytime stability, timer to not waste CO2 at night). and to find out the kh and ph values to give you 30ppm, type "co2 kh ph chart" into google images. youll get plenty of hits.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Or maybe I should just forget the whole pH deal, eh?

It's only .1 a day anyways.... what do you think?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

you didnt get my point of exponential did you?
if its not slowing down, its changing more and more each day.

i suggest you dont worry. add plants and CO2 (plants LIKE ammonia) and see what you get after a week or 2 of that. most likely it will be perfect for fish. plants and animals both usually do better in the prescense of each other.


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## Jace (Feb 20, 2008)

So char, is your tank 3x as awesome as anyone elses? Sorry, I couldn't resist but if you don't get the reference that's okay.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

There's no rocks in this tank? Nothing other than Flourite and DW?

How much water is evaporating- is it noticible?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i dont think he could have that much evaporation in a 46 gallon tank to cause such a big change in ph, though it is gradual.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> you didnt get my point of exponential did you?
> if its not slowing down, its changing more and more each day.
> 
> i suggest you dont worry. add plants and CO2 (plants LIKE ammonia) and see what you get after a week or 2 of that. most likely it will be perfect for fish. plants and animals both usually do better in the prescense of each other.


Sorry, if you look back at the times on out posts your post about pH was at the exact same time as my post, so I hadn't read it until after.

I said before though, I can't afford CO2 yet. I probably won't have any for at least a year, so I will not be able to lower pH that way, unless by a $20 manual CO2 or something like that. Basically anything over $100 is out of my budget for now. I've been thinking of DIY CO2 but it seems like I would screw that up. :icon_wink

Not much water is evaporating. Yes, nothing but fluorite and DW. I lost maybe 1/4" total. My lights aren't on yet though, I'm still waiting for BigALs to mail me that missing piece. Should be soon though.

And I'll get a kH kit as soon as I can, and yes I am using API drip tests.

Only reason I don't want to put plants in yet is that I may get an algae bloom with only a few plants and lots of light. I plan to buy lots of plants all at once or something.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

I think the flakes have fully disintegrated or something.

There are little white threads...or maybe what I would even call nets hanging from the spray bar and floating on the surface.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Ok, so......regardess of knowing whether or not this was a right decision, I have added some plants. (pics will come tomorrow, camera battery is drained).

Basically I have:
1-huge Amazon sword
1-mini amazon sword
1-Scarlet Temple
1-Wisteria
2-Red Ludwigia
1-Java Fern
5-Dwarf Sagittaria


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Here it is with some plants in it. Not done yet, and I'm still soaking a piece of driftwood to put on the left.



Side view


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Well, what do you guys think about the way I placed the plants? 

Oh, and my nitrites read 0.25 today, so the end is in sight!


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

The pictures are too small to tell


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## resowner92 (Jul 23, 2007)

clwatkins10 said:


> The pictures are too small to tell


click them


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

resowner92 said:


> click them


Ahaha, I was a bit preoccupied to think right. Its seems that you need more plants


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

you need more plants. way more. get some stems in there. and a carpet (moss carpets are good in low light). and some kind of midground (crypts would work great for that).


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Of course, of course, still working on that.

I just stopped off at my local petsmart and got these. The realy pet store (big als) is an hour away from me. But whenever I do decide to venture down there I'll pick up a ton of plants. Hopefully.

I'm also hoping that the dwarf sag on the bottom right will form a kind of carpet. If not, I may take a bunch of rocks and lay them all together to make a little moss bunch.

Also, I've added some little cambomba stems here and there. You can barelt see a difference so I'm not gonna take my camera out for it. But just imagine!:icon_roll

Ok, so....I'll look for some crypts. Anything else?

Oh, and my amazon sword is showing signs of iron deficiency....but I can't just throw in some iron during a cycle, can I? So should I just wait it out?


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Ok, so here's some other plants I want to get. Please tell me what you think and feel free to add the my list.

*Java Moss*, on rocks and driftwood
*Bacopa *(monnieri?), for the mid-background
*Anubias Nana*, foreground
*Cryptocoryne Balansae*, mid-background (if I can find it around here)
*Rotala Indica*, background, filling in the corner on the left

What else? I know I need more than this, but nothing comes to mind.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

why cant you? iron and the nitrogen cycle are pretty unrelated. plants need both in certain quantities, but bacteria dont care if they have more iron. during your cycle you can dose the following:
N, P, K, trace, and excel. 
trace make exceptially little difference. excel has some stuff which is bad for bacteria, but in such low amounts it make no differance.
trace are all minerals. why would decomposition be affected by iron or sodium or magnesium? 
feel free to dose as you would a cycled tank.

i dont know if you have enough light for rotala.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> why cant you? iron and the nitrogen cycle are pretty unrelated. plants need both in certain quantities, but bacteria dont care if they have more iron. during your cycle you can dose the following:
> N, P, K, trace, and excel.
> trace make exceptially little difference. excel has some stuff which is bad for bacteria, but in such low amounts it make no differance.
> trace are all minerals. why would decomposition be affected by iron or sodium or magnesium?
> ...


I'd have algae out the wazoo if I tried to dose iron in a tank with that much ammonia and nitrite.

If not rotala what else could I add? I don't really mind at all if the rotala loses its red color, as long as it grows a bit.
I need some more back-midground plants I think.

When the tank is cycled I'm going down to big als and I'll pick up whatever they have. Until then, this is what I got.

Oh, and I added that driftwood. Pics will come tomorrow.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

depends, you should have 5-10 ppm of nitrates. ammonia and nitrites can both be counted as nitrates in ppm to plant nutrient needs, since plants are after the N, and all three have just 1 N (some are easier to suck up and use then others though).
but everything else you can/should dose normally.

well, how many wpg do you have?


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

1.8wpg of T5, individual reflectors.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

I've been thinking of DIY CO2.

Specifically, this design. 

http://www.qsl.net/w2wdx/aquaria/diyco2.html

Do I need it? If not, would it at least help?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

yeah, thats low light. youll need to stick to low light plants. 

CO2 never hurts (if done correctly). a carbon source is very helpful to the plants. CO2 is THE carbon source, its the one they use in nature, the one they adapted to use perfectly. 
in your low light tank, you dont need that much CO2, unless you have a lot of surface agitation. that also means that you wont have as big swings inbetween night and day normally associated with DIY CO2, because photosynthesis will acount for a smaller portion of CO2 reduction. 
their diagram is the tipical DIY CO2 setup, it works. though i suggest starting with one of the bottles being smaller, and then if you still need more CO2, add a bigger bottle, or another small on (multiple smaller bottles works better then a big one, they give more stability). dont change the DIY mixture every 3 weeks, but change one bottle 1.5 weeks early the first time, so you dont change both at the same time, so your CO2 is more stable (the supply from these setups goes in a bell-shaped curve). 
that site gives you a lot of the scientific background knowledge, which is good to know, but not vital; so dont panic if you dont get anything. just put water sugar and yeast in a bottle in relative quantities to each other and hook up the bottle.
i preffer inline reactors. they work well and are out of site. many people use the glass diffusers too (for this, you really should get ADA, i hear theirs is truly beyond the competition and worth the price). i have never heard of a a bell before. and i dont think it would as effective, but i have never used it, so i dont know.
oh, and i just wanted to mention that i keep my CO2 at 30ppm. the optimal is between 25-35ppm.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> yeah, thats low light. youll need to stick to low light plants.
> 
> CO2 never hurts (if done correctly). a carbon source is very helpful to the plants. CO2 is THE carbon source, its the one they use in nature, the one they adapted to use perfectly.
> in your low light tank, you dont need that much CO2, unless you have a lot of surface agitation. that also means that you wont have as big swings inbetween night and day normally associated with DIY CO2, because photosynthesis will acount for a smaller portion of CO2 reduction.
> ...


I was planning to use a glass nano diffuser, sorry, should have mentioned that.
Think I should just do one bottle instead then?

Also, what about kH buffers? Will it mess up my pH any?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

one big and one small, then go from there.

what is the kh in your tank ATM?
unless its a real extreme, i wouldnt touch it.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> one big and one small, then go from there.
> 
> what is the kh in your tank ATM?
> unless its a real extreme, i wouldnt touch it.


I'm not sure exactly. I can't find a kH test kit anywhere near me. I may have to special order one.

What company makes a good one? API?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i use api. its a kh and gh combo test kit. i would check out drsfostersmith.com and bigalsonline.com, they will probably have it for sale. 
you really shouldnt be thinking about kh buffers if you dont even have a kh test kit.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> i use api. its a kh and gh combo test kit. i would check out drsfostersmith.com and bigalsonline.com, they will probably have it for sale.
> you really shouldnt be thinking about kh buffers if you dont even have a kh test kit.


I'm looking for one.

I think I'll start with 2 2l's, but just add less yeast and sugar or something and see what happens.
How high do you think the CO2 could get?


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Awwwwwww.....

My nitrites are still going strong, and I don't want to dose anything until the tank is cycled. My params are as follows-
Ammonia (even though I am adding more each day)- 0ppm
Nitrite- 1ppm
Nitrate- 5ppm (even with plants)
What does it all mean?

Problem is the plants are showing signs of nutrient defficiency.

My question here is, how long does does it usually take for the nitrites to go down? And could I start dosing stuff here without a giant algae bloom?

Oh, and I also got a kH test kit.

The water right out of my tap has a dKH of 6.
The pH is around 6.8 out of the tap, but the water in my tank is 7.6. I'm guessing because the CO2 is gone. This shouldn't be too much of a problem though, I'm getting my CO2 started up this week anyways.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

K does not affect the cycle, go ahead and dose.
P does not affect the cycle, go ahead and dose.
micros do not affect the cycle, go ahead and dose.
natural bodies of water have N, P, and K, and micros, but they still have the N bacteria. 

your plants are low light plants, they wont really affect the N values. they grow slow and dont need much, they soaked themselves full of ammonia, and now they are using that (plants preffer ammonia to nitrates, and use nitrites only as a last resort).

yes dose, you MUST dose. just dose only a little. use light as the main limiting factor, and keep the nutrients in proportion (basically, dose as much as the plants need, and have a smaller photoperiod then you intend to; when you increase the photoperiod, increase the dose).

dont try and buffer kh. your kh is fine. you cant keep erios in it, but otherwise thats it. and besides, its actually higher then some peoples, not lower. 

adding less yeast doesnt matter in the long run. decreasing both may lower the amount of CO2 being given off at the peak. the yeast will just take longer to multiply and get to their peak.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Sounds like a plan!

Oh, and I also got a ton more plants. I'm not sure which ones will actually live though.

I got Green Hygro, Hygro Rose, Rotala indica, and crypt wenditii. I'm waiting for the tank to cycle before adding the crypt though.

Oh, the crypt came in one of those little pots. Is it ok to remove the pot so I can separate the crypts?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i dont know about the hygros (never kept hygros), and the rotala may be ok. just dont trim it too short and it should be fine. 
yep, go ahead and tear up the rockwool; but do it inside a bowl of water. otherwise it gets dry fast and becomes harder. you need to tear up the rockwool as gently as you can, crypts dont like their roots being damaged, and it will definately melt. but it will also grow back.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> i dont know about the hygros (never kept hygros), and the rotala may be ok. just dont trim it too short and it should be fine.
> yep, go ahead and tear up the rockwool; but do it inside a bowl of water. otherwise it gets dry fast and becomes harder. you need to tear up the rockwool as gently as you can, crypts dont like their roots being damaged, and it will definately melt. but it will also grow back.


OK....hmmmm. Is it ok to plant the crypt in direct light? Or does it have to be shaded by something?

Oh, and instead of the glass diffuser I got this- http://pet-king.stores.yahoo.net/15561176989.html for my DIY CO2.
Good enough?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

the crypt will be fine. it can be in low to medium-high light without a problem. its not an anubias that grows so slow it is sure to get algae in all but the best tanks. plant it where you want it, and it should do fine.

that works. its really a reactor not a diffuser, since the bubbles arent made smaller and spread out through the water, rather they are slowed on their travel to the surface, giving water enough time to dissolve them and form hydrogen bonds and become carbonic acid.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

I got everything I need to set the CO2 up. I'll probably do it tomorrow, but I won't turn it on until after the cycle.

And I'll get pics up as soon as I can find a camera, it needs and update anyways.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

it will not hurt the cycle. it has a .00000000001% chance of affecting the cycle, and even that would be negligable, and it would help (it would lower the ph, and if you ph is basic, which it probably is, then lowering it would help the bacteria). 
besides, how do you set it up and then not turn it on? when you mix the water, sugar, and yeast, the yeast WILL start to eat the sugar, weather you want them to or not.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> it will not hurt the cycle. it has a .00000000001% chance of affecting the cycle, and even that would be negligable, and it would help (it would lower the ph, and if you ph is basic, which it probably is, then lowering it would help the bacteria).
> besides, how do you set it up and then not turn it on? when you mix the water, sugar, and yeast, the yeast WILL start to eat the sugar, weather you want them to or not.


Sorry, but how will it not affect the cycle? Not questioning you, just curious.

Beneficial bacteria thrives on oxygen, and when we add Co2, even though the bacteria will adapt, it will not be created as quickly, or work as efficiently. Therefore, slower cycle.....right? Anyways, if I were to increase Co2, I would have to increase dosing and increased dosing during a cycle seems like begging for an algae growth....Come to think of it I haven't seen a speak of algae in my tank at all yet, besides the bba that came on the plants.

That reminds me, will Co2 pretty much control bba?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

dont think of it as a balance between O2 and CO2 saturation. CO2 and oxygen are completely unrelated (despite what some people believe) in water. O2 is mixed into the water, and though you say dissolved oxygen, its not actually dissolved. dissolved means that their is a solute and solvent. water is the universal solvent, but oxygen is not a solute. a solute and solvent need to be polar or ionic (have polar covalent bonds, or ionic bonds inbetween the atoms). O2 is a non-polar molecule, so water cant dissolve it. CO2, however is. and thats why when it comes in contact with water it forms hydrogen bonds with it and becomes carbonic acid. 
O2 can be mixed in carbonic acid.

if your water is basic, then lowering it will help the bacteria. the bacteria live in the ph range of 6-8. the optimal for them is 7.5-6.5. if your tap ph is 7.6 like mine, then CO2 will actually help the bacteria, but a negligable amount. 

not if you dose right. you need to balance your light and CO2. light and water (which you dont need to balance, since the whole plant is submerged) and CO2 make glucose (that is C6H12O6) which is plant food. the more food the plant has, the more energy it has. the more energy the faster it grows. to grow it needs material to grow. this is what we call nutrients. the main nutrients they use are N P K C Ca Mg and Fe. N is nitrogen and you provide that through ammonia (NH3), ammonium(NH4), and nitrates (NO3). P is phosphorus, and is usually given through phosphates. K is potassium and is given through potash. C is carbon. you usually give that through CO2 (it is food, but cellulose makes up the cell wall of plant cells, and cellulose is a chain of glucoses linked to each other). Ca Mg and Fe are micronutrients needed in the highest quantity by plants. they also need a bunch of others like B Mn Cu Zn Cl S and a bunch of others. 
if you dose too much, you get algae. but if you dont dose enough, you also get algae (just different algae). you need to get the balance.

you bought plants with BBA on them?
you are masochistic.
GET CO2 IN THERE NOW!
AND EXCEL!
no it does not control BBA, it prevents it. but even a small slip (say 2 days no CO2) and it can show up. and then its much harder to get rid of. you will need good CO2 and a lot of hard effort to get rid of it.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> you bought plants with BBA on them?
> you are masochistic.
> GET CO2 IN THERE NOW!
> AND EXCEL!
> no it does not control BBA, it prevents it. but even a small slip (say 2 days no CO2) and it can show up. and then its much harder to get rid of. you will need good CO2 and a lot of hard effort to get rid of it.


LOL, had to get google dictionary for that one....masochistic. Oh well, learn a new word everyday! 
I didn't know it had it when I bought it, but now I do.

Ok, I have excel going already, but should I use excel with the CO2? When you have Co2 you don't need excel...right?

I won't be able to get the Co2 up for another....4 days at least. I still need to wait for the silicone to dry on all my bottle caps. And I haven't been able to find a 1L bottle to act as a gas seperator. I think a 500mL bottle would be fine though, right?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

you dont need it. but it doesnt hurt.
and it is used to get rid of bba, thats how i managed. check the algae forum for info (there is a bunch on excel as bba treatement).

idk, i never used a gas seperator.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Ok, well, everything is ready to go. All I am waiting on is my nitrites to drop (still at 1ppm), and for the silicone on all my bottles to dry.

Its really high quality silicone, and it takes longer to dry than most....should be a week.

But my plants have been doing great so far! Only problem is that the spray bar pushs all of my hygros over. Is there any way to stop this without moving all my plants away from the spray bar?


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Well, I figure I'm due for an update. Here's some pics of the tank. The only other plant that I have that is not in there is the wenditii. Its in my other tank until this one cycles and gets CO2 going.

Full tank shot

The right side

The left side



Comments?


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

I'm still wondering about my other question.

How do you stop the tall plants from getting pushed right over by the spray bar? Any placement trick to it?

The pics above were taken with the filter off.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

well, you could aim it more upwards, since its above all your plants, the flow would pass over them. or you could get some plastic tube and make a DIY spraybar and place holes on multiple sides and more of them to help disperse the flow. i personally always found it difficult to hide the output of a filter with plants without them getting bent over.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> well, you could aim it more upwards, since its above all your plants, the flow would pass over them. or you could get some plastic tube and make a DIY spraybar and place holes on multiple sides and more of them to help disperse the flow. i personally always found it difficult to hide the output of a filter with plants without them getting bent over.


Hmmm...maybe I'll just move the spray bar around the tank, see where it does the least damage.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

OK, I've fixed the spray bar problem by switch around the heater and the bar. But now I have another problem.

My 10000K bulb won't work.

I don't know what happened to it, it doesn't show signs of being burnt out, and I've only had it for 3 weeks.

The pink freshwater bulb works fine, and I moved the 10000K around and it isn't the ballast, it is the bulb.

I can get a new one easy, but I want to know if anyone knows what may have caused this. It was working fine when I turned it off yesterday both bulbs were going strong. Just today it wouldn't turn on at all.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

I don't get what's going on with my cycle.

I add about 50-60 drops of ammonia daily, which turns out to be about .5ppm. Or would be, but all ammonia is instantly turned into nitrite.

But, even with all this ammonia I'm always getting 1ppm nitrite. 

So...where did all that ammonia and nitrite go? No nitrate and all that ammonia...but still always 1ppm nitrite....?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

what test kit are you using? are you sure its accurate?
you have plants, and they could be sucking up a lot of the ammonia, and some nitrates (they preffere ammonia, so they would take that first). still your nitrites should be going down.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> what test kit are you using? are you sure its accurate?
> you have plants, and they could be sucking up a lot of the ammonia, and some nitrates (they preffere ammonia, so they would take that first). still your nitrites should be going down.


All my test kits are API....you think I should be adding more ammonia?

I could add ammonia at night so the plants don't use as much.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Ok, so I added ammonia 4 or 5 hours after lights out for the past two days.

I tested for ammonia in the morning and there was none. So either the plants still use ammonia at night, my pure ammonia died on me, or it is being used by the nitrifying bacteria.

I still want to know where the nitrite is going though. I have 5ppm nitrate still.....where could that be coming from, I thought the plants would have used it by now.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

ok. get this straight: ammonia, nitrates, and ammonium (and nitrites, but not nearly as much), are used by plants to get N. this is used in a bunch of molecules in the cells of all organisms. it is a meterial used to build stuff. building stuff (organelles, cell walls, cell membranes, chloroplasts, etc) happens 24/7. photosynthesis requires light. photosynthesis is the creation of food, and in nature happens an average of 12 hours a day. it is 6CO2 + 6H2O => C6H12O6 (glucose; food) + O6. the energy which is the real goal, is stored in the glucose. the glocuse is stored for the other 12 hours there is no photosynthesis, and to build cellulose. the energy is obtained in cellular respiration, this also happens 24/7. the energy is used for everything. 
the photosynthesis, and N uptake relate in the amount of each is proportionate, but not timewise throughout the day.

it is being made into nitrates and the plants are using some of that. if you have 0ppm NH3/NH4 and 0ppm NO2, your tank is cycled.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> ok. get this straight: ammonia, nitrates, and ammonium (and nitrites, but not nearly as much), are used by plants to get N. this is used in a bunch of molecules in the cells of all organisms. it is a meterial used to build stuff. building stuff (organelles, cell walls, cell membranes, chloroplasts, etc) happens 24/7. photosynthesis requires light. photosynthesis is the creation of food, and in nature happens an average of 12 hours a day. it is 6CO2 + 6H2O => C6H12O6 (glucose; food) + O6. the energy which is the real goal, is stored in the glucose. the glocuse is stored for the other 12 hours there is no photosynthesis, and to build cellulose. the energy is obtained in cellular respiration, this also happens 24/7. the energy is used for everything.
> the photosynthesis, and N uptake relate in the amount of each is proportionate, but not timewise throughout the day.


Ok, I get that part now. Thanks



> it is being made into nitrates and the plants are using some of that. if you have 0ppm NH3/NH4 and 0ppm NO2, your tank is cycled.


But the thing is I don't have 0ppm NO2....I'm adding ammonia but it is being used pretty much instantly. Yet I still have 1ppm nitrite constantly.....shouldn't this also disappear instantly?

*EDIT: *Breaking news update. I retested my nitrates just now. 
Results are a very surprising and insanely high *40*ppm!
This means that:

My ammonia is 0, even though I'm adding more everyday.
My nitrites are at a steady 1ppm.
And yet I still have 40 ppm nitrate.

So, I'm not even really going to ask what is going on, but rather....what should I do next?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

do a 50-75% water change. you want nitrates 10-20ppm. you should be dosing P and K with that. 

i would put in some extra amquel or something else to bind the nitrites, and wait a few days and see if they go up. im out of theories why your nitrates would rise while your nitrites are just hovering at 1.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> do a 50-75% water change. you want nitrates 10-20ppm. you should be dosing P and K with that.
> 
> i would put in some extra amquel or something else to bind the nitrites, and wait a few days and see if they go up. im out of theories why your nitrates would rise while your nitrites are just hovering at 1.


So...do a water change. And the stop adding ammonia...right? Or do I keep adding ammonia?

And then if the nitrates rise but nitrites stay at 0 I'm good?


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Hooray!

I retested and my nitrites are at 0ppm.

I'm assuming that when I tested the nitrites and nitrates yesterday the nitrites were just beginning to go to nitrates, and I tested half way.

So-

Ammonia- 0
Nitrite- 0
Nitrate- 60
pH-7.2
kH-5 

And I am good to go!

Tomorrow I will do a 80% water change, and hopefully I'll be putting in the fish from my old tank- 1 bolivian, 4 rasbora het., 1 zebra danio(for lack of a better home, will not be adding to his school), 3 peppered cories (I'll be getting another 3 or 4 more of these guys), 1 swordtail (until he finds another home), and 5 amano shrimp. From there I'll get some cardinals, maybe some diamonds, some apistos, some cherry barbs....and so on and so forth.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i done reccomend adding all those fish at once. put in the danio and the rasboras. then in at least a week the swordtail and bolivian, and in at least another week the cories.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> i done reccomend adding all those fish at once. put in the danio and the rasboras. then in at least a week the swordtail and bolivian, and in at least another week the cories.


Really?

4 rasboras and a danio doesn't seem like much of a bio-load.

I have 3 platies I could throw in to keep the cycle going, then take them out when I'm putting in the bolivian.


Was wondering, what is the reason I can't add all these at once? I thought that was the point of fishless cycling. And its not like its too much of a bio-load, I used to have these guys in a 10g.
Again, not questioning you, just curious to know the reason.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Well, I put.

The water is pretty much the same, but I did a 30min float acclimation anyways.....thats just how much free time I have.

Anyways, pics tomorrow.

And the CO2 is still not set up, the silicone is taking forever to dry.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

the size of the tank and bio-capacity are different. your probably dont have enough bacteria to immediately sustain all those fish, so you need to add them in groups, so the bacteria will build up. you may have enough, but its much safer in groups.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Wow...my rasboras are really freaked out.

They seem all calm and happy, but if I go within 5 feet of the tank they go mental, and some are hitting there heads on the glass canopy.

How long until this goes away?

One of them actually got stuck in my CO2 diffuser. You know the one where the bubble travels up that winding maze? He was jammed sideways in the maze, and was running up it like a bubble. It would have been hilarious if I wasn't so terrified. I got him out fine though....but I think something bad is going to happen with this much excitment going around.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Just a quick update!

The tank is doing great. The hygros have really taken off, the dwarf sag is starting to spread, and my DIY Co2 is up and working. I got a krib and 5 cherry barbs in addition to the rasboras, danio and ram. All my fish have calmed down and gotten used to the new home. Everything is working out great.

I'll put up some pics later this week as soon as I get my black background on.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

My DIY Co2 is working PERFECTLY!!!

Its amazing!

I get a bubble a second, bring me up to 20ppm Co2, at night I turn it off and put a bubble on quickly and I can maintain a pH between 6.8-7.0.

I can't even discribe how proud of myself I am! Everything about my tank is going absolutely 100% perfect! I didn't think stuff like that ever happened!

I'll get some pics up soon!

And thanks for all that have helped me!


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

I've got the Co2 up to about 25-30ppm now. I can't see much of an impact on bba.

I can tell you though that there is this algae growing on every plant in the tank. Very fine algae, I'm praying that it isn't bba, it look more like normal old green algae. But its on EVERYTHING!!!!

So my mission for today is to find a pet store that sells otos by the dozens. I figure I might pick up some rummys or cardinals while I'm there too.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Ok, I finally gots some pics.



Full tank shot. As you can see I kind of have a big gap of nothing to the right of the big driftwood and left of the hygro forest. I plan on putting some big red plant there. Whatever looks nicest at BigAls really.



The right side. My dwarf sag is growing nicely. I started with 3 plants, now I have 8 and a new plant is growing shooting up every 2 or 3 days now.



Hygro jungle. The aerial roots are killing me.



A different angle


As you can see....I have no real aquascaping abilities. So if you have any suggestions at all on plant placement, or some plants I should get,
SPEAK UP!


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

the tank is looking nice.

bba is much easier to prevent then to get rid of. i warned you.
you have a few monthes work at least to get rid of it. id get some excel and/or H2O2, and some young SAE.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

I know.....

Its actually much better than it was a week ago. Main reason I was holding out taking this picture. But I still have problems.

I just came back from lfs. I picked up 5 otos and 6 rummies. They didn't have any SAE, but the otos should take care of the green algae on my crypt and driftwood, even if they don't they're still cute little guys.


Any aquascaping tips marko?


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Long long should I leave the lights on in this tank?

Right now I have them going 9h 40min. Think that's ok?


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

I'm thinking of doing some rescaping in the near future.
I eventually want to turn it into a kind of concave shape.

I'm thinking of replacing the wisteria on the right with water sprite, and cutting the wisteria down to size to use as the low point of the concave shape. Maybe with some hairgrass in front of it. What do you think?


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

AAAAA, this is driving me crazy.

I need to decide on a centerpiece school. I want to get 2 dozen or so of one small tetra, but I can't decide.

Its either neons or glow-lights. 

Problem is all the lfs near me have one neon in a tank of 200 that has NTD. Do you think I should risk it? What are the chances of the others having NTD? I like cardinals but all the ones I recently purchased died in 2 days, and there aren't any pet stores near by that sell cardinals besides that one, I don't want to buy from them again.

I've had a new thought.

I have got to bump up the rummies and rasbora anyways. I've had those rasboras for years, the school just keeps shrinking, it needs to be fixed, and when I bought the rummies there was only 4 in the whole store. So why not bump the rummies up to 3 dozen or so, the rasbora to a dozen, and then get a school of 8 or so congos. I like it, what do you think?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

how do you acclimate? if it keeps happening, id say acclimation is a problem. also, what day does the store get new shipments of livestock? buy 2 days after that, so they still have a large selection, but you got fish that have calmed down a little and arent as stressed anymore.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> how do you acclimate? if it keeps happening, id say acclimation is a problem. also, what day does the store get new shipments of livestock? buy 2 days after that, so they still have a large selection, but you got fish that have calmed down a little and arent as stressed anymore.


1.5 hour drip acclimation. I've acclimated my rummies and cardinals longer than anything. pH testing, little heater in the bucket, and I drain about 10 gallons of water from my tank to do it.

I'm thinking its just the guys I bought it from. These are the only fish I have ever lost in that short a time. I think these guys got a bad shipment.
I won't buy from the for the next little while.

What do you think of the idea Marko?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

well, it could be them.

well, i guess you should try online then.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

I got a good deal with a BigAls an hour away from me.

They say $2.80ea if I buy over 20. Thats where I'll go I think.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Wow, bba, bba, rhizo, and more bba.

From far away my tank looks pretty good, but close up and my wisteria is covered in rhizo, my sword is coved in bba, and my hygros are coated in what appears to be a rhizo/bba mix.


Unfortunate series of events that took place.

I ran out of Excel, but ordered some more. They said it would be 5-12 days, 3 weeks later no excel. During that time I was having CO2 troubles, so I had to cut down to about 10ppm. Then there was a period of time where I ran out of yeast, and I was snowed in my house, so my DIY CO2 was completely off for about 5 days.

Now I have Excel, and my CO2 is off the charts, and it has been like this for the last week. Unfortunately most of the stuff is still there. Rhizo took a huge hit, but the bba lives on.

Double, even triple dosing and spot treating excel doesn't really seem to damage it. 

And even the parts that do die (turn a brownish color) still stay on the plants depriving them of light.

How can I get rid of the stuff completely?


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## Ethoxide (Nov 26, 2008)

I just read through your thread and I have got to let you know that you actually have high light. T5HO bulbs that you are using throw the WPG rule out the window. BBA is caused by excess light and not enough CO2.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

> I just read through your thread and I have got to let you know that you actually have high light. T5HO bulbs that you are using throw the WPG rule out the window. BBA is caused by excess light and not enough CO2.


Ah, I have no idea what kind of light rating I got going!

Soooo confusing......

Some people say low light, some say high, some say med and everything in between the 3. Everyone seems to have a different idea, not sure where to go with it.


It does seem though that bba is very selective on the plants it grows on.
It doesn't touch my rotala rotundifolia, or my red ludwigia, or my green hygros.
Most of my dwarf sags are spared as well, but my sunset hygro, my amazon swords, my crypt and my wisteria especially take the full front of it.
Rhizo has gone down significantly since in the last week, I had 50+ppm CO2, but I had to cut that out. Too many ill effects on the fish. Now its back down to 25ppm. I have no trouble keeping it above 30, but its the stability thats getting me I think.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

See my old picture, where the amazon sword is? I don't like it, it won't grow.

Any suggestions on what I should replace it with?


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## malaybiswas (Nov 2, 2008)

Characins said:


> See my old picture, where the amazon sword is? I don't like it, it won't grow.
> 
> Any suggestions on what I should replace it with?


Are those wisteria on the right. IMO swap positions between those and the sword in the center. You might also want to move the sword from the left to the right. Looks too isolated and hides the plants behind.

I would also consider some more fore ground cover. With your setup my preference would be hairgrass or micro sword.

Another opinion. You mentioned a few "dozens" of rummynose in your post earlier. Isn't that too much fauna for a 46g along with your current load?

I know the processes of drip acclimation but I normally put the fish in the bag directly on my tanks, floating for 1/2-1 hr and then release them. This has worked for me pretty well even with discus and cardinals.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Well, I suppose to really answer this question I should have a *recent* pic of my tank!
So, here you go.

My main problem is evident in this pic. You can see all the rhizo on the driftwood. Its also on most of my hygros and the wisteria.



Here's a neat little shot of my sunset hygro. Beautiful colors, too bad the bba in the background messes it up, and it could probably have moved the airline tube! Oh well, its my first real attempt at close up photographing plants, and its not as easy as I thought it was. 



I could be wrong, but as far as I can tell I am the only person in existence to do a full on rotala rotundifolia foreground. I really like it though, more people should try it.



And here's the full tank shot. Everything has grown except the sword. The rotala has taken off! Its crazy how great that thing grows, I love it! The wisteria did reach the surface at a point but I cut it back. My foreground is not yet fully developed, and the overall shape of the tank I have yet to realise. Let me know what you think!


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## malaybiswas (Nov 2, 2008)

This one looks much better. Looking at this I feel since you have rotala in the foreground, you perhaps can get all the swords in the midground to give a texture contrast between the foreground, mid ground and back ground.

As far as the rhizo and BBA is concerned, try reducing the light timing and feeding (I have resorted to feeding once every alternate day to get things back in shape) and manual clean/water change perhaps twice a week until things get back in shape.

Also what type of ferts do you use? Have you checked for phosphate levels? I have seperate potassium, nitrogen, iron and micro nutrients which i mix to required proportions instead of using standard fert products.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

I'm dosing with Seachem's full line right now, but as soon as that runs out I'm doing estamative index all the way. I will reduce my light now maybe down to 7 hours? 

And thanks for that sword suggestion!

I like the idea of putting some kind of sword in front of my hygros, although I guess I could do a crypt of some tall foreground plant just as well, or even anubias...unless that gets taken over by algae. Great idea.

Although, eventually in the middle of the tank I was thinking of doing something along these lines.
http://www.aquatic-eden.com/2007/01/aquascape-analysis-4-filipe-alves.html
Where the two foregrounds meet I'd like to put in a little path or something. Think it would be a good idea?


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Hmmmm....

It seems I can't really cut back on light without messing up my feeding and maintenance scedule.

Do you think it would be possible to have a 2 or 3 hour period of darkness in the middle of the day?


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## prjct92eh2 (Apr 8, 2008)

I'd raise that spraybar up a good bit. May be the reason those cardinals didn't makeit.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

That whole issue is totally fixed, but thanks for your concern.

Now its more of an aquascaping thing! What to do!
I was thinking I could put a midground in between where the hygros are and what is just gravel. I was thinking of using hairgrass for that.

And I want to replace the amazon sword at the back with something, preferably something similiar to the rotala rotundifolia I have there now. A tall, dense, quick growing plant.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

I'm thinking, is estamative index a good idea for this tank? Being DIY CO2 and all? And any other plant suggestions for where that sword is now would be greatly appreciated.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

I got a new fish!
Not sure if it was a good idea or not but here she is!








About the size of a quarter right now. Hope she doesn't grow too fast.


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## DarioDario (Nov 8, 2008)

MARKO you really need to be given a pat on the back, I followed this thread from post 1 and I gotta say I admire your patience. 

Characins I would consider yourself very lucky having a knowledgeable person following your thread.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

DarioDario said:


> MARKO you really need to be given a pat on the back, I followed this thread from post 1 and I gotta say I admire your patience.


 LOL, that makes me feel good. 
Thanks for your comment though, they are all appreciated. Any opinions on the tank itself?

I just ordered KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4 and CSM+B from GLA. I will start dosing with that right away, rather than continue with Flourish. I also got a drop checker so I can figure out exactly how much CO2 I really have rather than refer to those annoying charts.

And I'm trying to grow some sunset hygros out of water for dramative effect. So far all the leaves died off and new emersed ones have been slowly growing in.


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