# Freshwater sump idea



## Something-Fishy (Jan 16, 2018)

Hey guys, I'm new here so thought I'd say hi and share an idea for a couple of sumps I had.

I know they are a bit too full, so I would lower the baffles and water levels, but what do you think of the co2 idea and the sump in general? I have implemented a diffuser in there so it starts to mix in with the bio balls like in a reactor, and the foam at the top to polish the water and finish off any micro bubbles that may not have dissolved yet by that point.

Tried to keep baffles low and minimum to prevent evaporation, but for me it's mostly the water surface that evaporates so by having the weir I can stop doing that too.

Many thanks


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## jasa73 (Jun 3, 2007)

Why so many baffles? Why not set up the foam from most porous to most fine in one chamber, and if you need another chamber for bio media (thought the foam would probably have way more then you need) one for that.


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## agrasyuk (Jan 5, 2018)

A note about the heater. Mine was also in the last chamber together with the pump. 

As it happened with our hard water here those heaters started developing a small build up of scale. That scale didn't stick for to long and quickly ended up in the tank - really hated the floating particles everywhere.

If I to do sump filtration again I would place the heater in chamber before the mechanical filtration happens.


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## Something-Fishy (Jan 16, 2018)

jasa73 said:


> Why so many baffles? Why not set up the foam from most porous to most fine in one chamber, and if you need another chamber for bio media (thought the foam would probably have way more then you need) one for that.


Yeah I could do that bud, fair point. I was just thinking more pressure and flow from the baffles really, but also more CO2 loss I guess so that might be an idea yeah?

Bump:


agrasyuk said:


> A note about the heater. Mine was also in the last chamber together with the pump.
> 
> As it happened with our hard water here those heaters started developing a small build up of scale. That scale didn't stick for to long and quickly ended up in the tank - really hated the floating particles everywhere.
> 
> If I to do sump filtration again I would place the heater in chamber before the mechanical filtration happens.


Thanks for the heads up Agra, my water is actually very soft here but it could still happen for the sake of moving it between sponges it's probably worth it!

Anybody any thoughts on the CO2 method at all?


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## jasa73 (Jun 3, 2007)

Im setting up a new sump too. Im buying Poret foam from Swiss Tropicals and placing the foam vertically like a mattenfilter but with 10ppi 20ppi then 30 ppi. in the first chamber. Im thinking about skipping out on any bio media. I love sumps, even on freshwater planted aquariums.


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## Something-Fishy (Jan 16, 2018)

jasa73 said:


> Im setting up a new sump too. Im buying Poret foam from Swiss Tropicals and placing the foam vertically like a mattenfilter but with 10ppi 20ppi then 30 ppi. in the first chamber. Im thinking about skipping out on any bio media. I love sumps, even on freshwater planted aquariums.


Awesome! I'm based in the UK  Will source some poret foam too.

You recon the foam will be enough bio then really? My bio balls were going to be two-fold anyway, serving as a mixing reactor for the CO2 you see, so I thought to kill two birds and act as bio as a bonus too.

Are you injecting CO2, or going non-techy? I am unsure how much CO2 I will lose.


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## FreshPuff (Oct 31, 2011)

*Nice design!*

Hey fishy- I envy your design skills. Being able to do that sort of rendering before taking on a diy project would have helped immensely! Overall your sump looks good. There are maybe a few tweaks I'd recommend doing to the design before going forward.

The first thing I noticed was the safety issue with the heater. If the pump chamber for what ever reason empties then that heater will overheat, melt, or crack. You want to make sure where ever the heater is placed water will always be covering it, even during a situation where the pump continues to run and there is no water entering the sump. hope that makes sense. 

The other suggestion is get rid of the diffusor in that tight space. Diffusors need periodic maintenance. Where you have it, getting to it might be a pain when it comes time to clean it. Id highly recommend using a co2 reactor instead. 

And I will just repeat what the others have already said about the bioball compartment. You don't need it. The poret foam and wet-dry chamber is all the bio-filtration you need! Id probably put a short baffle after the wet-dry chamber with enough room for the heater.


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## Something-Fishy (Jan 16, 2018)

FreshPuff said:


> Hey fishy- I envy your design skills. Being able to do that sort of rendering before taking on a diy project would have helped immensely! Overall your sump looks good. There are maybe a few tweaks I'd recommend doing to the design before going forward.
> 
> The first thing I noticed was the safety issue with the heater. If the pump chamber for what ever reason empties then that heater will overheat, melt, or crack. You want to make sure where ever the heater is placed water will always be covering it, even during a situation where the pump continues to run and there is no water entering the sump. hope that makes sense.
> 
> ...





FreshPuff said:


> Hey fishy- I envy your design skills. Being able to do that sort of rendering before taking on a diy project would have helped immensely! Overall your sump looks good. There are maybe a few tweaks I'd recommend doing to the design before going forward.
> 
> The first thing I noticed was the safety issue with the heater. If the pump chamber for what ever reason empties then that heater will overheat, melt, or crack. You want to make sure where ever the heater is placed water will always be covering it, even during a situation where the pump continues to run and there is no water entering the sump. hope that makes sense.
> 
> ...


Hey FreshPuff - thanks man, appreciate your feedback.

I'm gonna have another go and post an update me thinks based on what I've heard - and there have been some common thoughts too over on UKAPS with what you have said. Heater I think I'll lie flat on the intake chamber to prevent said problems, and bio balls I wouldn't keep if the CO2 went. I have the Dennerle turbo co2 mixer - have you used that at all? I will look into co2 reactor and try to integrate one of those I think. Would wet/dry degas CO2 further do you think?


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## FreshPuff (Oct 31, 2011)

Something-Fishy said:


> I have the Dennerle turbo co2 mixer - have you used that at all?


Ive not used that product but I have used the ISTA WaterPlant Max Mix CO2 Reactor and the Sera CO2 Flore ACTIVE REACTOR with great success. I think they are similar to what you have. 

How big is your tank btw? And what sort of flow are you looking to pass through the reactor? 



Something-Fishy said:


> Would wet/dry degas CO2 further do you think?


When I used a wet/dry it was required that seal the compartment where the trickle plate was. It does cause a lot of degassing. But if you can cover it with a lid (polycarbonate not acrylic because acrylic warps with moisture) then you should have no problem with degassing too much co2.


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## d33pVI (Oct 28, 2015)

@FreshPuff covered my initial concerns with the heaters and the diffuser location. The other thing I would suggest is to make your return chamber as large as possible. Unless you are running a large ATO or doing a continuous water change system the water level there will be fluctuating from evaporation so keeping it large buys you more time between top-offs.

I'm really liking my sump set-up. First chamber is the inflow/fish catcher. Water flows over the first baffle through some filter floss and then a 3" thick coarse sponge, then back up through a fine sponge and down into the return chamber. I keep some sponge filters and old bio-media in the return for emergencies, and the chamber is large enough to put the heaters horizontally near the bottom so I don't have to worry about them running dry. There is a photo of it in my journal in my sig.


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## coldmantis (Aug 17, 2010)

You can build it like mines and have an reactor out of the sump. This design is co2 degass friendly but you have to use a herbie style drain.


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## vanish (Apr 21, 2014)

The more bottom touching baffles you have, the less water is available for the pump chamber, meaning water top ups more often.

Not a problem if you have an ATO, but I don't and its one of the things I love about having a sump. My 150G can go 6 weeks between top ups.


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## Something-Fishy (Jan 16, 2018)

Great question I should have mentioned that! Tanks are 22l (tiny haha so want to get all the gear out of it and increase water volume amap!) and a 75l tank, and I have a 350l in the pipeline that was going to be marine but I think will be planted also! Once I am happy my sump idea I will just copy and paste accordingly really!

Updated my sump based on comments, so first chamber is sock and heater flat on the bottom, with water that overflows, then all foams various PPI, then bio / other such as bamboo/carbon/purigen, and final one is much larger now to allow more fill and account for evaporation - and a CO2 reactor in there with a mini pump to mix and push into return pump.

I could seal with some sort of flexi rubber lid, or just lid the last chamber for the minimal gas loss?

How's that looking now fellas?


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

Too many baffles and your drain section is too small. Make a drain section that holds either 3x 4in filter socks or 2x 7in ones.


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## Kampo (Nov 3, 2015)

jasa73 said:


> Why so many baffles? Why not set up the foam from most porous to most fine in one chamber, and if you need another chamber for bio media (thought the foam would probably have way more then you need) one for that.


this is my plan for my sump. 40 Long under my 120. water enters one side then goes thru 3 2in mattenfoam filters in coard thru fine grades. then flow into a 30inch long refugeum filled with safe-t-sorb substrate and prolly wisteria. and prolly will be a fry grow out spot as well. then on thru another 2inch matten filter then to the pump and heater chamber. planning on drilling the sump in on the pump side and plumb it to a floor drain in the next room over. so when I need to change water all I need to do is toss in a hose in the display for 20-30min.


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## hotashes (Aug 25, 2016)

I'm in on this thread, based in London uk. I've a sump systemised set up on both my tanks. I found them confusing at first, but now glad I have them.. Reason for posting is also to learn as I have ordered my CO2 regulator and looking at ideas on where I can insert my CO2?








My baffles are chamber 1 main overflow,alfagrog,coarse & medium foam with an over style baffle, chamber 2 now has maximum siporax hula hoops in a cage style crate topped with fine filter floss, and my heater positioned at an angle with another over style baffle, then a tiny under baffle to remove any bubbles in the return pump. My return pump is hard plumbed so I cannot really use an inline diffuser!!! I think a cut plastic bottle placed at the inlet of my return pump (preventing gassing off) to feed my Co2 direct into the pump my be my only option here. 

Any other ideas I find I will add here later on, glad to be amongst other sump users.


Aqua oak tanks 4'x2'x2' & 5'x2'x2' both freshwater set up on apex Neptune systems. 
Mortgage & Protection Adviser Full Time,
Peace


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## Something-Fishy (Jan 16, 2018)

gus6464 said:


> Too many baffles and your drain section is too small. Make a drain section that holds either 3x 4in filter socks or 2x 7in ones.


I can increase the first chamber a bit then, sure. There are only two baffles though now, do you still consider that too many?.


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## d33pVI (Oct 28, 2015)

Something-Fishy said:


> Great question I should have mentioned that! Tanks are 22l (tiny haha so want to get all the gear out of it and increase water volume amap!) and a 75l tank, and I have a 350l in the pipeline that was going to be marine but I think will be planted also! Once I am happy my sump idea I will just copy and paste accordingly really!
> 
> Updated my sump based on comments, so first chamber is sock and heater flat on the bottom, with water that overflows, then all foams various PPI, then bio / other such as bamboo/carbon/purigen, and final one is much larger now to allow more fill and account for evaporation - and a CO2 reactor in there with a mini pump to mix and push into return pump.
> 
> ...


That last baffle isn't doing anything. Running the CO2 on a separate pump is a decent idea if there is room in the return chamber. I may give that a go myself if my new griggs reactor doesn't pan out.


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## vanish (Apr 21, 2014)

What's the plan for removal / cleaning of the filter socks? It doesn't look like much room to work in there.


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## FreshPuff (Oct 31, 2011)

Id just cover the whole portion of the sump to keep the co2 in the sump with this design. 

Another option is to have the water flow in the manner below. and get rid of the last baffle on the right. 









Here's another example of a sump design using poret foam. I grabbed this image from the swisstropicals website. You can simply use the poret foam in a vertical manner too and forget the filter sock. There wont be as much co2 degassing and seems like its much easier to build.


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## Riceman (Nov 17, 2014)

I went the dry sump route,just throwing this out there.
Been up and running for about 4 years,seems to work well.


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## Something-Fishy (Jan 16, 2018)

FreshPuff said:


> Id just cover the whole portion of the sump to keep the co2 in the sump with this design.
> 
> Another option is to have the water flow in the manner below. and get rid of the last baffle on the right.
> 
> ...


Hey Fresh

Nice input man, thanks!

Yeah fair points, what and use the co2 pump in the bottom idea? You think foam alone is enough then? Do you use spacers to keep them apart, and go from low PPI to high PPI left to right, or? How about evaporation and top-ups / flow with no baffles?

I guess I could swap foam for a plastic filter block of anything else too (Carbon/Purigen/etc)?

People saying about the last baffle not doing anything - misunderstanding on my part then in that case! I did that as I thought it would allow more water to sit in the last chamber 

Bump:


Riceman said:


> I went the dry sump route,just throwing this out there.
> Been up and running for about 4 years,seems to work well.


Looks good Rice - probably get some degassing on that dry area though without a lid on the unit - a rubber membrane that's easily removed I was going to look into! Looks good though obviously working for you, I'm getting nice dissolving with the cheap Dennerle Turbo unit through testing in tank currently. I had a few inline ones but the seals went in them from pressure changes in using a solenoid.

Bump: Fair - I thought it would allow for more water in the last chamber, but perhaps gravity is not as friendly as I thought it was in that instance! It would just sit at the level before the baffle then you are saying?

I'm getting nice dissolving with the cheap Dennerle Turbo unit through testing in tank currently with a pump, so I would recommend for saving gas!

One of my nano tanks is only 22l, but I am convinced that adding an extra 30l in a 42l sump must still be a good thing, right?


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## hotashes (Aug 25, 2016)

Hi, is the dennerle turbo unit you have easy to install in the sump? Do you have pictures? 


Aqua oak tanks 4'x2'x2' & 5'x2'x2' both freshwater set up on apex Neptune systems. 
Mortgage & Protection Adviser Full Time,
Peace


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## Something-Fishy (Jan 16, 2018)

hotashes said:


> Hi, is the dennerle turbo unit you have easy to install in the sump? Do you have pictures?
> 
> 
> Aqua oak tanks 4'x2'x2' & 5'x2'x2' both freshwater set up on apex Neptune systems.
> ...


Hi Hotashes

It's easy to set up yeah, for sure, you just add a pump and the CO2 in the top, and tweak how much you want the flow to be between going in the unit to mix CO2 (with the tap on top), and how much to leave going out to the tank.

To save as much CO2 as poss you would want the pump pretty much pounding the cylinder with 70% power and 30% gap to let water out, depending on your pump power obviously, you would need to play with it to mix it really really well, and only a small amount of external flow as the water released would be very well mixed and the sump flow would handle the current, the CO2 pump is purely to mix.

I will get some pictures once I build the sump, it's in my small tank currently as I am testing it with a drop checker.


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## Riceman (Nov 17, 2014)

Hi S-F
The lid is covered with a piece of 38mm foam board,and entire sump is insulated with it as well.
The water level in the last chamber fluctuates with evaporation,have to add about a gallon every
week and a half.Dripping noises let me know when it's low.


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## theDCpump (Jul 22, 2016)

Use a filter bag tied off on your 1st down pipe to the sump.
Get creative with the quick method to tie it off on the sump down-pipe.

1. saves a ton of time on washing felt or other styles of socks with rings and time consuming chores.
2. balloons out like a parachute for plenty of filter area if the overall bag is just right for your chamber area.
3. the foam down range will have enough bio to eat up/convert the terd water.
4. catches snails.
5. dial in which micron size bag you want (50, 75, 100, 200).


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## DLBoge (Dec 7, 2017)

Great design. Just a few observations

1. I would substitute K1 in place of the bio balls and put the K1 in the “Bio Media” section. K1 has three times the surface area of bio balls and is cheaper than bio balls in bulk.
2. I would also put K1 in the “Space for carbon/bamboo char/Purigen etc.” I find “chemical filtration” to be useless and I’m a chemist.
3. I don't understand lowering the water levels of everything? That just reduces the amount of biofiltration. I like to maximize that by maximizing the water level. Also the more water the more stable the system.
4, I would add K1 in a large bag to the pump section. That way you maximize biofiltration and its stlll easy to access one of the pumps or the co2 injector for maintenance.
5. I liked the large foam section in your first design. Medium ppi foam is simply the best biomedia going, with an effective surface area triple that of K1 and 9 times better than bio balls. I would move the foam section to after the biofiltration sections
6. Great ideas to move the heater and to increase the volume of the pump chamber

So the 5 sections in your design become: sock filtration/heater - K1 - K1 - Foam - Pumps/CO2/K1 in bag

Just some personal opinions from an old fart who's been keeping many aquariums for 50 years


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## Something-Fishy (Jan 16, 2018)

Filter bag sounds a good plan, thanks!

DLBoge - Thanks for your input, it's all useful!

So you think my sump design could work then? I was thinking about redesigning more like the Swiss Tropicals one and using foams only with a single area of water.

My ONLY concern here is with the water levels, and how the top up would work as there are no 'sections' for water levels just simply one tank?

Thanks


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

Something-Fishy said:


> Filter bag sounds a good plan, thanks!
> 
> DLBoge - Thanks for your input, it's all useful!
> 
> ...


The ATO goes on the return pump section. That is the only section where the water level will fluctuate if the sump is designed correctly. Also do buy an ATO if you are using a sump. You shouldn't be running a sump without an auto topoff unit.


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## Something-Fishy (Jan 16, 2018)

gus6464 said:


> The ATO goes on the return pump section. That is the only section where the water level will fluctuate if the sump is designed correctly. Also, do buy an ATO if you are using a sump. You shouldn't be running a sump without an auto top off unit.


Will look into that thanks! I was more meaning that the Swiss Tropicals diagram has no baffles which confused me how that would work?


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## FreshPuff (Oct 31, 2011)

Just add a baffle after the foam. Place the heater in the first space where the water enters the sump so that water level will never go below the heater. Place the ATO in the return (pump) area.


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## Something-Fishy (Jan 16, 2018)

FreshPuff said:


> Just add a baffle after the foam. Place the heater in the first space where the water enters the sump so that water level will never go below the heater. Place the ATO in the return (pump) area.


Like this? Various PPI foams with egg crate strip braces to hold and to separate them. :nerd::smile2:

Auto-top-up wise, what are people using currently? Ball valve or? would a timed release or slow trickle work? maybe 0.5cm per day equiv on the sump.


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## FreshPuff (Oct 31, 2011)

I see that you keep adding the last baffle. Its really not needed. And in your diagrams I see that you have a higher water level in return area where the pump is. That is not possible. The return area water level will be the lowest...


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## hotashes (Aug 25, 2016)

I always thought the last baffle will prevent bubbles getting into the compartment!!


Aqua oak tanks 4'x2'x2' & 5'x2'x2' both freshwater set up on apex Neptune systems. 
Mortgage & Protection Adviser Full Time,
Peace


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## Jmcguire79 (Jan 24, 2018)

*Is a sump necessary if the tank is a overflow?*

Hey guys, this is my first post and I don't know if this is the correct thread to post it. But I am planning for a new 125 gal planted tank. Near future, hopefully. But I want it to be an overflow filtration so I can hide all the plumbing. Is a sump necessary with a overflow filtration? 

Thanks in advance!


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## vanish (Apr 21, 2014)

The filter bag is a neat idea. Have two of them and rotate. I might have to try that. I current use filter floss on a mesh and its works great but is a mess to pull out.


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## FreshPuff (Oct 31, 2011)

hotashes said:


> I always thought the last baffle will prevent bubbles getting into the compartment!!


Reefers use skimmers that sometimes produce bubbles and the trap is used to prevent the bubbles from reaching the return area. Since we don't use skimmers in freshwater aquaria we don't need a bubble trap.


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## Something-Fishy (Jan 16, 2018)

FreshPuff said:


> I see that you keep adding the last baffle. Its really not needed. And in your diagrams I see that you have a higher water level in return area where the pump is. That is not possible. The return area water level will be the lowest...


I see, ok! I misunderstood with the last baffle as I assumed I would need both or the 'part' baffle wouldn't really do anything different to the diagram from SwissTropicals where there is no baffle at all?

My worry was just the dropping of the water levels really, plus I'm a bit bummed out at losing half of the volume of the sump which I'd love to utilise.

All of this and that fact I need a lid to prevent evaporation leads me to think I'm better off creating a sealed lid for this SUMP and just having it as a large filter/sump hybrid which I can fill much higher and would get less evaporation too. Then just create a float that releases water from the top up when it gets low?


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## astex (Aug 13, 2009)

Post 31 shows how my sump is and it works great. I put in dividers to hold the poret foam, but they're more a nuisance than anything, if you get foam a bit wider than the tank, 2" poret foam stays put just fine. Just keep in mind how you're going to get the foam out for periodic cleanings.


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## Something-Fishy (Jan 16, 2018)

astex said:


> Post 31 shows how my sump is and it works great. I put in dividers to hold the poret foam, but they're more a nuisance than anything, if you get foam a bit wider than the tank, 2" poret foam stays put just fine. Just keep in mind how you're going to get the foam out for periodic cleanings.


Sweet - thanks man! I think the foam would hold but getting it out could be tricky - would the gaps between not help the flow and help to prevent compaction of current where all the foams touch? I was thinking just some egg crates top and bottom to help slot the foams in, making them easier to remove too without all the dirt coming off them?

What do you use in terms of top up?


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## FreshPuff (Oct 31, 2011)

Something-Fishy said:


> I see, ok! I misunderstood with the last baffle as I assumed I would need both or the 'part' baffle wouldn't really do anything different to the diagram from SwissTropicals where there is no baffle at all?
> 
> The last picture i posted had a baffle that keeps the water level higher to the left of it so that you can place a heater in it.
> 
> ...



I hope this helps


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## theDCpump (Jul 22, 2016)

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/black-egg-crate-for-aquariums-2-x-2-square.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4NDm38L02AIViFcNCh0AVAqfEAQYBSABEgKHAPD_BwE *<-- Egg crate.*

Zip tie black egg crate to form a "u" shape that will support your last slab of foam making a solid upright wall of foam that won't budge.
The pump is in the open part of the "u".

I have a 40 breeder with a few slabs of foam that sometimes shifted a bit, but the support of a rigid structure helped keep it locked in place.
No baffles are needed on this build.
No bubbles make it to the pump past all that foam.
I run a Herbie downpipe.

1. Easy filter bag tied to the down pipe.
2. Add Foam.
3. More foam.
4. Foam support structurefor the last slab of foam.
5. Add return pump( I would suggest using a really silent DC pump, Sicce 7.0 or 9.0, Vectra M1 on 50-70%, or an Elos DC). Some are truly whisper quiet.
6. Money doesn't matter for happiness...K.I.S.S Keep. It. Stupid. Simple. 


[url=https://ibb.co/nNT1Rw][/URL]



[url=https://ibb.co/jLoMtb] https://imgbb.com/[/URL]


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## Something-Fishy (Jan 16, 2018)

Thanks for this @theDCpump 

I have actually coincidentally bought a nut milk bag 200mcrn instead of the sock, and ordered a load of egg crates before reading this - ha!

Replacing the last baffle with a foam eggcrate - 

1. Why can I not just use one piece of eggcrate siliconed on, rather than build a box please?
2. Also - How will this replace the baffle as that was to keep water levels to the left always a certain height - the foam wall will behave differently won't it?

I like the points and will take this into consideration, I just need to think about the weir overflow now and I'm all set I think! I was thinking a corner weir and outpipe inside the wier - that would be fine right?


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## Something-Fishy (Jan 16, 2018)

Hey guys

Here’s the sump guys just soaking the filter sponges (smells of acrylic!!) and here’s the first little nano tank this ones going on to increase volume and keep everything out of it! Any reason when a plastic version is used with a form of comb or grill that this overflow idea wouldn’t work? Trying to KISS still and see so many over complicated overflows for sumps.

Was thinking something like this [Ebay Link Removed]


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## theDCpump (Jul 22, 2016)

Something-Fishy said:


> Here’s the sump guys just soaking the filter sponges (smells of acrylic!!) and here’s the first little nano tank this ones going on to increase volume and keep everything out of it! Any reason when a plastic version is used with a form of comb or grill that this overflow idea wouldn’t work? Trying to KISS still and see so many over complicated overflows for sumps.
> 
> Was thinking something like this [Ebay Link Removed]


Use every open pore foam or fabric store mesh-grid for yarn projects as a 1st method of keeping stuff out of the "down" pipes in the display tank.
Show us some pics of your exact pipe work and the herbie or other method.


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## Something-Fishy (Jan 16, 2018)

Ok will try and get something thanks! Are most people in agreement that having a non drilled sump drainage with anything 'over' the tank is dodgy as there's a siphon break risk? I also think they the return pump would 'flood' over the overflow on a normal setup, whereas my proposal of having the outpipe sucking via a tube skimming the top section of water proves harder to keep balanced based on the return pump right? Really not sure about that.


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