# 20 20’s 75 gallon - updated 02-21-09



## CobraGuppy (Sep 23, 2007)

Nice tank, can't wait until it evolves more and more.

About the e tennelus, I bought some too and when i put it in my tank, a lot of the leaves melted like yours. But, i kept it in there to see what would happen and already new shooters are shooting out and new plants are starting to bud while the mother plants are withering away.

I think the crypts will grow back too, i hear that they do not like being moved much.

Shrimp might be a problem because of your angels. But i think that if you have a dense enough aquascape, the shrimp will survive.

Dont know about the other questions, sorry.

Your off to a good start though! (better than i was when i started)

Btw, i love your ph controller


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

up the bubbles per minute. and are there any waterfalls or such that would outgas CO2? also is your CO2 on a timer or ph controller? i highly reccomend the ph controller.

never kept pygmy chain swords, so i dont know.

if you move a crypt, it will melt at least a few leaves. if you remove it from rockwool (which you need to if it is in rockwool) then it often melts all the leaves; but it will grow back. actually you may see new growth before its even done melting.

you have to have a completed cycle before adding fish, so if you didnt start one with some flakes, or whatever. it will take less if you dose nitrogen for your plants (so they dont steal from the bacteria, or at least not as much). no sequence, just do it a few at a time.

never kept cories, but most likely. but from what i hear about them, wait until the HC is well established and has good root system.

shrimp will be fine, but very few if any shrimplets will survive to adulthood; just dont buy small shrimp. amano will be fine, RCS may be (i dont know if the angels will try to eat them). you probably wont see the shrimp though, they hide if there are big fish in the tank. 

you bioload will be pretty good without them, but they add very little and tanks with big bioloads can be healthy too (like mine). id start with 20 or 25. if you start seeing high nitrates, give some away.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Thanks for the replies and answers. I run a Milwaukee PH controller. I keep upping the bubble count, I'm at maybe 4 a second. Trouble is, the rate won't stay constant, it keeps slowing down. I bought the regulator used, maybe it's bad? No waterfalls, either, but the output from the XP3 spray bar really moves the surface of the water. The XP3 is the filter with the CO2 reactor on it.


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## SeaSerpant (Feb 20, 2008)

It looks nice right now but when i fills in it will look really beautiful. Are the ludwiga going all the way to the back on the left side? i can't really tell.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

No, not all the way to the back. It's a bit deceiving, as the flow from the xp3 spraybar has that ludwigia leaning towards the back. I plan on putting in bacopa carolina (around 30 stems) in that empty spot at the back left.


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## 9am53 (Jan 23, 2008)

I have 2 angels in a smaller (less room to hide) tank with a bunch of ghost and amano shrimp. I was wondering about the angels eating my shrimp too initially, but I was told by several members to add the shrimp after feeding time, when the angels arent looking for food, and to add the shrimp in nets directly to a heavily planted part of the tank so they can instantly hide. This will help you because the angels wont recognize the shrimps as food, if you just dropped them in they would get pounded. My amanos were shy for a couple months, but now all my shrimp come out all day long to eat and mingle, and the angels ignore them, it seems the angels are used to the shrimp as tankmates, not food.


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## SeaSerpant (Feb 20, 2008)

Ok that explains alot.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Still debating the angels vs shrimp idea. In anyones opinion, do shrimp really help control algae, enough to make a dent? Don't have algae yet, and hopefully won't have any/much, but seeing as this is my first planted tank, I'm expecting the worst.:redface: 

I've had probably half the crypt leaves melt away, the rest seem to be doing OK. Need to keep an eye on them.

As far as the E. Tennelus, the leaves that are melting aren't completely melting, just becoming opaque, and brown (if that makes any sense). There are a few new leaves growing on a couple of the plants. Should I take off the melting leaves, or just leave them?

I've adjusted the spraybars to be a bit lower in the tank, now there isn't nearly as much surface movement. No change in the PH, however.


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## KurtG (Dec 10, 2007)

What is the working pressure on the regulator? You might be able to up that a bit and get a more constant bubble rate.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

The output side started out around 10 psi, I've been upping it gradually once in a while to get the bubble count up, which happens for a while, but then drops down again. Right now I think it's at around 20 psi, but I'm at work and can't verify that. There's a reply from Milwaukee that got posted in one of the threads in the FAQ section with a method to try and get consistant counts, I'll try that tonight. But I don't have a lot of hope.


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## KurtG (Dec 10, 2007)

I have a Milwaukee that runs perfect and very stable. I use a working pressure around 22 psi though and moderate flow with the valve. 10 psi is definately too low to get a stable flow.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

I was following the instruction posted here:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/p...lwaukee-ma-957-co2-regulator-instuctions.html

That says to use an output psi of 10, so that's what I did. Trial and error is having me raise that, just like you.


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## KurtG (Dec 10, 2007)

Not sure I agree with those instructions. Up the working pressure and fine tune the flow with the needle valve, not the regulator. I'm sure you will get more stable results.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Current state:

PH - by controller - 7.2
PH - by 'low ph test' - 6.6
PH - by 'high ph test' - no higher than 7.4 (that's as low as the test goes)
KH - 5
GH - 125.3
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 40 (maybe 80, tough for me to read the test)

So. Couple of questions. Look at those different PH readings. Something ain't right!  Could be the controller is bad, maybe I calibrated it incorrectly, maybe the PH test kit is bad or I took the tests incorrectly. I think my next move is to recalibrate the PH controller. It's a Milwaukee, I calibrated it with the 7 ph solution that came with it (I've done this type of thing before, successfully, too!  ).

I know there's a relationship between PH, KH, and CO2 levels, so I've kept the controller set to about 6.6 (the KH reading last time was 4). I'll adjust that as I figure out the PH mess. Can someone tell me exactly what the GH is telling me, as I have no idea.:redface: 

New pics:



















The E. Tennelus that is melting (kinda). I am getting new leaves, so that's good:


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## mpodolan (Mar 27, 2007)

That gh reading is in ppm. To convert to degrees, divide by 17.9. So, you have a gh of 125.3/17.9 = 7 degrees. This is generally considered to be reasonably soft in our hobby. 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/water-parameters/357-german-degrees-hardness-question.html
http://www.drhelm.com/aquarium/chemistry.html


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Ah, thanks for that info. So, are a KH of 5 and GH of 7 acceptable? I think so, but I'm just a newbie, so bear with me.:tongue:


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## mpodolan (Mar 27, 2007)

Yea, they're both fine for most fish/plants. There are very few species (ie. toninas and erios) that can't adapt or grow well in these conditions.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Great, thanks!

Now to figure out what the heck is up with my PH. PH controller says 7.1 this morning. The output gauge on the regulator has been at about 25 since yesterday morning, the bubble have been fairly consistant, I would guess that's why the drop in the meter reading. I just gotta figure out why the test I did read 6.6...


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Figured out what was wrong with my PH readings. Doh. Controller was calibrated incorrectly. I went out at lunch and got some 7.0 calibration fluid, the meter was set .6 above that. I've calibrated PH probes before, and never screwed up like that. At least now I know. 

Things are growing, so that's pretty exciting. In addition to plants, however, snails and some algae are growing. Small snails that are easy to squish, but I'm a bit worried that I won't be squishing enough, and I'll get 'overrun'. And not a lot of algae, but I've got some green hair algae (that's my newbie identification, wouldn't be surprised if it's wrong :icon_mrgr ) on my ludwigia repens:










It's on other stems of the plant, in addition to what's circled in red above. Quite a bit of the plant has it. Anything I should do about the algae? Throw out the plant? I'd hate to, it's starting to get some good growth. Just leave things as they are, and hope I've got the conditions right so the algea will starve? It's not starving so far, as you can see!


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

Is the algae slimy or coarse? If it's slimy, it's hair algae, if it's coarse it's cladophora. Hard to tell from the picture.

Manually remove the algae, you can leave the plant, and adjust tank parameters as necessary to keep the algae away.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

I haven't touched it but it looks more slimy than course. Is it possible to just remove the algae? Must be, since you suggested that, eh? I'm not sure if I could do that with this stuff, it's all over most of the stems, short so you can't see it in the picture, but it's there.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

I pulled out the stems with the worst of the algae, now I'll just wait and see what happens.

I would like some advice on my lighting period. I've got the 40 watt normal flouresent set to come on at 10 AM, and off at 11 PM, 13 hours. The 260 watt PC fixture is set to come on at 11 AM, and off at 10 PM, 11 hours. Is that time period OK, or should I cut it back some?


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## pweifan (Nov 2, 2006)

I would keep the total photo period around 12 hours, but the "peak" period (the additional lighting) about 6-8 hours. From what I've read on this lately, people are saying that a "blast" of 4 hours of high light is enough to make a tank happy.

I really like the layout of the tank so far. You'll almost surely move things around as plants grow in, but it's off to a great start


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Thanks for the reply! As far as lighting, I've got two sets, one at 40 watts, the other at 260 watts. Are you suggesting to have the 260 watts only on for 6-8 hours a day? I've seen some of the 'blast of high light' posts/suggestions also. I would think that would be feasable if I could split the 260 up, but with this fixture it's all or none. I could possibly see doing this if I could have 130 watts for 10-12 hours, and 260 for the peak time, but since I can't, I don't think that would be a good idea. But, being new to this I'm open to all suggestions and opinions, so if anyone else can weigh in on this issue I'd appreciated it!


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## CrimsonKeel (Jul 12, 2004)

I know your not going ot like my suggestion really but I'm giving it anyway.
take out two of those 65 bulbls so they dont even come on.
with that little amount of plants and in an unestablished tank your just asking for a outbreak of some sort of algae. You can adjust accordingly if your not getting enough growth with the bulbs missing but at this stage you will want some baby steps to get established. I made the same mistake you are with dumping tons of light on my tank before the plants got dense and i had a huge bad case of green water and am still fighting off hair algae.
my current tank is a 55 and is running 2 65 watt pc bulbs instaed of the 4 i started out with. Only issue with the 75 maybe with less light will be the HC not forming carpet. Up to you if you start getting bad algae i would cut your lights.
at the very least cut back your photo period. full bore for 4-6 hours then run your other light for the rest of the time. (my preferance is blast at end of day when your home to see the tank)


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Interesting point of view. I'll watch the algae, and cut back the 'full bore' if it gets any worse. Thanks!


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Question about my fish stocking. No fish in the tank yet. My original thoughts on stocking was:

Cardinals - 18
either rummy-nose or rasbora - 18
silver hatchets - 6
Angels - 4
oto's - 6
Cories - 2

I'm contemplating doing without the angels, and getting another set of smaller fish. I know tiger barbs are active and 'nippy', would they be ok if I added 10 or 12 of them? The list would then be:

Cardinals - 18
either rummy-nose or rasbora - 18
silver hatchets - 6
Tiger barbs - 10 or 12
oto's - 6
Cories - 2


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

I'd leave out the cories, or add a few more. You'll rarely ever see them if there are only two, but seem to be much more active in groups of 4-5. 

Angels can be nippy, and of course tiger barbs can be too. I've kept both, and enjoyed them both quite a lot, but perhaps the angels more so because I got them to breed, and sold a lot of extra-long tailed varieties for some extra cash


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

I can add 3 or 4 more, I've always liked cories. Not looking to breed, at least not for a long while, if at all. I'm just thinking that without large fish in the tank it will have more 'depth', and sense of size. Just wasn't sure if tigers, if kept in groups of 8 or 10, would leave the other small fish alone. Anyone have any other recommendations for small fish? Would harliquin rasbora's go well with cardinals and rummy noses?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If you go with the tiger barbs make sure to get them very young, and don't get any less than you are planning ATM. I've been able to keep tiger barbs successfully with other small schooling fish but the secret was buy young and make sure to get a big enough school.

I personally would skip angels unless you go with larger schooling fish; full-grown angels are notorious for snacking on small fish like cardinals and otos.

If you get hatchets make sure there's not a single gap anywhere in your tank cover. These are literally flying fish.

I think rasboras would be nice with the other fish, and I agree get a larger school of cories, or don't get cories at all if you want small carpeting plants like HC...


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> or don't get cories at all if you want small carpeting plants like HC...


Well, I've growing a carpet of HC, and that was one of my concerns with cories. I've been trying to find out if cories would be OK with the HC, if I let the HC mature and develop good roots. Haven't gotten a definitive answer, if there is such a thing in the world of fish-keeping.:tongue:


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

LOL yup it's hard to get a definititve answer because so many ppl's experiences will vary... I've never grown HC at all but hear tons of grief about ppl who tried but the cories kept pulling it up... if yours is well rooted you might have a better chance, but cories do like to shuffle up against carpet plants looking for goodies...


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

If I don't get cories, what other 'creature' would do the same job of cleaning as them, that will be OK to keep in a community tank with an HC carpet?


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

New photo's, some with flash, some without. Tank is 1 week old:

Full tank:









Part of my HC:









Algae on the rock, and one of the plants:






















































Side shot:


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

Looking good! 

Nice assortment of plants, hope they all do well for you!


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Thanks! Being my first planted tank, and not really know what I'm doing, I kinda went 'pot-luck' with my plant selections and placement. My main concern right now is the algae. Keeping an eye on it...


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

You're growing a lot of the same ones I do 

Is that Ludwigia Brevipes in the left corner? If so, it's looking very nice!!


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Sold to me as Ludwigia arcuata.


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

So it is!

Thanks for the clarification


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Great start- can't wait to see it all grown in! :thumbsup:


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Friend or Foe?










Same stuff, but in the substrate:


















First image is of some plant/algae growing in some other stuff that I believe is algae of some kind. Does anyone know what exactly it is? Should I yank it out?


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## CobraGuppy (Sep 23, 2007)

that is riccia i think. Friend unless you let it grow too much on the surface and blocks out your light. It doesn't grow that fast though.

Very nice tank, so much growth lol. Your ludwigia arcuata is awesome, is it a fairly easy plant to keep?


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## jelisoner (Mar 27, 2008)

I have 5 cories in my 29g and have had hc planted for 6 days with no problems from the cories so far


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Riccia, eh? Nice hitchhiker I guess! 

Yeah, I think I like cories enough to give 'em a try. I'll just let the HC grow in well before I get them.


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

Riccia is one of those plants, like moss, that once it's in your tank, it is hard to eradicate completely.

I don't mind it myself though.


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## i love planted tanks (Apr 27, 2008)

nice tank cant wait to see it when it grows out more


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## i love planted tanks (Apr 27, 2008)

*nice tank*

cant wait to see it when it grows out more:smile:


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Thanks, me too! Me too! 

I might just pull the riccia, don't really know where I'd want it in the tank, and I think I have enough types of plants without it. Just a bit concerned about the algae at this point.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Pulled the riccia, but...

Algae and Snails and Algae, OH MY!:eek5: 

So, here's some pics:

























You can see the green/brown algae on the rock, the brown hairy/slimey algae on the plant and the driftwood, there is also some very short black (and I think hairy) algae on the narrow leaf java fern, and what looks like diatoms on the wood and maybe on the substrate.

I'm currently dosing dry, and have been, for 9 days. KN03 (3/4 tsp) and KH2P04 (1/4 tsp) 3 times a week, trace Trace (1/4 tsp) 3 times a week. On water change days (once a week) I dose nothing. Tonight was the second water change in this tanks short life.

Pressurized CO2, with RexGrigg reactor. Red Sea drop checker is green. 

4 wpg, 40 watt NO flourescent on for 13 hours, 260 watt PC's on for 11 hours.

Water parameters 30 minutes ago:
PH 6.9 (had been hovering around 6.8 before this)
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 40
Kh - 4
Gh - 5
Temp - 80

So, what I'm going to do:

- Just did a 50% water change.

- Cut photoperiod back to 8 hours of 260 watt PC's, 10 hours 40 watt NO flourescent.

- I've just received some true 4 dKH solution, so I'll 'reset' the drop checker with that instead of the tank water the Red Sea drop checker instructions say to use, and check the color in a couple of hours.

- If I can get to the fish store tomorrow, get 6 oto's.

- Put some lettuce in the tank tonight, and see how many of the snails I can catch with it by tomorrow morning.

Also, the water smells a bit (wifes not real happy with that), so I'm going to put the 'bio-chem zorb' (Rena's brand of carbon) into the XP3 and see if that helps. 

So, if anyone feels like it, please 'critique' the steps I'm taking, and let me know if I'm on the right track, or if I should be doing something else or differently. ALL opinions greatly appreciated!:thumbsup:


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Any reason you're keeping your temp at 80? At those temps it's likely algae will grow better than most plants. 76-78 is average for most tropical plants and fish.

Your nitrAtes were sky high (40ppm is the level where the fish danger zone begins) so it's good that you did a PWC. You may want to think about reducing your N dosing.

I'm not so sure that you want to add a chem-zorb pad to the Rena; IMO the goal here should be growing your plants so they can outcompete the algae, not stripping you water column.

IMO you've got wayy to much light going into this tank. I'd drop the entire photoperiod down to 8 hours, and maybe only 2-4 hours with the 260watts... at least till you get the algae under control.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

I'm not trying to keep it at 80, I'm trying to keep it at 78, and that's where it's been until today. Right now, after the WC, it's back at 78. Not sure why it went up today.

40 nitrAtes is sky high? (40ppm is the level where the fish danger zone begins) so it's good that you did a PWC. You may want to think about reducing your N dosing. I can cut back the N dosing, that's the KN03, right? I have been dosing 3/4 tsp 3 times a week, does cutting it back to 1/2 tsp 3 times a week sound like a good starting point?

I'm adding the chem-zorb pad to the Rena because of the smell of the water. Don't want to strip the water column, but what should I do about the smell? Will 'getting things right' (water paramters, dosage, etc) eliminate the smell?

I'm surprised that you think I've got way too much light, but you're not the first to say that. (Not that I did anything the first time I was told, eh?  ). It's 4 wpg, I know that's high, but didn't think it was out of line for a tank running pressurized CO2 and dosing dry ferts. Trouble with alternating my "watt's" is that I've got two fixtures, each with only one on-off switch. A 40 watt NO flourescent fixture, and a 260 watt PC fixture. So you're recommending running the 40 watt fixture for 8 hours, and the 260 watt fixture for only 2 to 4 hours?

_Oh, and thanks for the reply!:thumbsup: _


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

The tank may be warming up due to the warmer weather. Seems like you may have a 2 degree fluctuation on your heater with the weather, so I'd prolly move the thermostat back to 76 so the tank will stay in the 76-78 range. 

Also the smell may go down just with a lower temp. Did your water change make any difference with the smell? How long has it been since you cleaned your filters?

Your dosing may need to go even lower than 1/2 tsp, but if you test your nitrAtes for a few weeks you should be able to get a better feel. Perhaps test right before you dose, and then again a few hours after you dose, and keep a journal? IMO 20ppm nitrAtes is a gracious plenty to keep in the water column.

I think that those Rena chem-zorb pads strip the water of phosphates... which will be a problem with your CO2 and lighting. Nitrates and phosphates need to be maintained in ratio with each other to avoid plant deficiencies and algae growth.

You might also want to read through BiscuitSlayer's journals for some pointers- I think he keeps his tanks around 4wpg. That kind of lighting makes for quite a balancing act...


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Temp is around 78 today, I'll keep an eye on it, and if it goes up again, I'll adjust the heater down as you suggest.

Yep, smell is a bit better after the water change. I've never cleaned the filters. But then again, they've only been running for 10 days.:tongue: I'll keep an eye on the nitrates, I've started the 1/2 tsp dosing. I do keep a journal, so I can get the trend. I'll also remove the chem-zorb pad. About the lighting, are you recommending to run the 260 watt fixture for only 2-4 hours, leaving only 40 watt's for the remainder of the 'daylight period'?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Oh I forgot that question, sorry- Yes, I'd try something close to that photoperiod at least till the algae is under control.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

How DARE you forget one of my questions!:tongue: 

Actually, you've been very helpful, and it's greatly appreciated. Now, off I go to yank out the chem-zorb, and set back the light period.

And just to show you that algae isn't the only thing growing in my tank, a before-after set:

'Before', 05-03-2008:









'After', 05-14-2008 (first one with flash, second one without):


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

Those plants are cookin! Very significant growth, and significant lighting to go with it 

I'll second lauralee's recommendations on the new photoperiod.

You can have success with high lighting levels, you just need to find the balance point of where the light is simply excessive.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

First, a tip. For all of those as clutzy as me. Don't, whatever you do, when unhooking your XP2 (or 'insert your filter of choice here'), DON'T accidently hit the on-off switch on the powerstrip while reaching to unplug the filter AFTER you've already turned off the powerstrip and unhooked the tubing. Just don't... _(because I just did...)_


And second, a further lighting question. Which would be 'better', setting the 260 watt PC fixture to run for 4-ish hours, or remove two of the bulbs so it's putting out 130 watts and run it for 8-ish hours. It may make no difference at all, or one way may be better for both plant growth and algae 'inhibitance' (I just made that word up...). I'm most concerned about the growth of my HC, I want it to continue to spread along the substrate, not start growing vertically.


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

Good question!

Either will work, and I don't know which would be more effective.

I'm inclined to say running half power for 8 hours would be the best route, but the 40 watt tube with a 4 hour burst may prove more effective. 

Sounds like it's time for an experiment on your part!


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Just tested the water:

Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 20 to 40 (I hate these color coded tests!)
PH 6.6
Phosphate - 5.0 (year old nutrafin test kit)
temp - 80

I adjusted the heater down a bit, we'll see if the temp stays a couple of degrees lower. What should the phosphate level be? I have no idea.

Today was the first day with a 4 hour period for the 260 watt PC's, and 6 hour period for the 40 watt NO. Their was a great deal of algae on the wood, but it seemed to be 'clumped' a bit more than before. Also some on the substrate. I siphoned off a great deal of it with airline tubing, so we'll see how it looks tomorrow.


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## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

dont expect changes within a day...

Use all the bulbs for less time. 2 bulbs is not intense enough for HC


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

My biggest concern with the shortened time period is the HC, as you say. I'm running 40 watts for 6 hours, and adding the 260 watt PC's (for a total of 300 watts, 4 wpg) for the middle 4 hours of that time. I think that's what you're suggesting...


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

I've been thinking about the high phosphate and nitrate readings. Should I stop dosing for a bit, until the levels come down? Maybe combine that with extra water changes? Not sure what the best way to handle this issue is, and would like some more advice. 

Also, would it be OK to start adding oto's and maybe some amano shrimp? I was thinking of adding 6 oto's, and maybe 10 amano shrimp. Any opinions on whether that's a good idea or not, and if so, would those be good amounts to add?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

IMO otos and Amanos are a great idea... but not till you get the nitrAtes under control. Otos especially are very sensitive to nitrogenous compounds. Water changes are always a good way, but you also need to understand the source (which is probably your dosing, but that's just guesswork on my part).

It's going to take some experiementing on your part; your specific plantload is going to grow differently and at a different rate than any other person's, so other than a general "educated guess" from someone else there's no way around the trial-and-error period that it will take to figure out just the right "balance." 

Plus, there's usually more than one way to skin a cat as the old saying goes... so just try something that makes sense to you, and journal what happens  

BTW- algae or no algae, the tank is looking great! :thumbsup:


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Thanks for the advice, it's greatly appreciated. I'll start with more water changes, maybe twice a week, and less dosing, and see what happens.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

I haven't dosed macros for 3 days, and then I tested nitrates this morning. It was in the 20-40 range, probably closer to 40. Then did a 50% water change, and tested the nitrates again. This time is was solidly in the 10-20 range. Range is now good. I'll monitor the level daily, to see how it goes, before I start dosing again. My phosphate test kit was at the very end of testing liquid, so I don't really trust the super high readings I'm getting. I need to get a new kit, then I'll check the phosphate levels. I'm still dosing micro's on the regular 3 times a week schedule. I don't think the algae is getting any worse, so we'll see.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

stuffing the tank full of algae eaters will help you out a bunch, when they stop eating your algae will come back, but if you are fixing the source of the algae problem while they are eating it goes away a lot faster.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

I want to get 6 oto's and maybe 10 amano shrimp, but I wanted to get my nitrate leveldown from the 40 it was at. I'm at that point, so hopefully this week I'll at least get the oto's. Any other suggestions?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

SAE. they are complete algae murderers (young ones anyway, the adults arent as good).


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Any issue with them uprooting fairly newly planted HC? Also, I've read quite a few times about 'true' SAE's, and 'non-true' (I just made that work up). Any hints as to how to identify a true SAE versus a 'non-true'?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

yep, big issues with new HC. i just put HC into my 20L and i am constantly replanting it. they are clumsy with their tail (youll know what i mean if you see them swim). wait until the HC is pretty well established before getting SAE.

this is a pic of a SAE off google:








notice the stripe has a zig-zag edge and continues the whole lenght of the fish.

this is a chinese algae eater off google:








different colors and different stripe. 

this is a siamese flying fox off google:








closely related to SAE but with visible differences in appearance (and behavior).


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Thanks for the info!


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

no problem


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Just a word of warning- SAEs are known to become more aggressive and tend to eat fish food instead of algae once older... some ppl love them and never have issues with them, however.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

No fish yet, but I did buy a new phosphate test kit. Sure enough, the old one, which was reading a solid 5.0 (or above, that's as high as that kit went) had to be bad. The phosphate level with the new one (Salifert) was 0.25, way to low. Nitrates were at 20, so that's good (I think). I think I read somewhere that the phosphate level should be around 2 to 3, can anyone verify that?


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Last night I dosed phosphate, but I'm still not dosing nitrates. Tested the water again tonight, nitrates still at 20, phosphates at approximately .40. I'll watch the levels, and adjust accordingly. Still would like someone to verify the phosphate level I should be targeting, I've seen anywhere from 1 to 3.

Oh, and I just put 6 oto's in the tank.


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## mpodolan (Mar 27, 2007)

I'd recommend calibrating your test kits to see how accurate they are. Here is a link that explains how to do so.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/water-parameters/65027-mixing-reference-solutions.html

As for the phosphates, it doesn't really matter, as long as it doesn't become a limiting factor (ie. there is enough for the plants). Just shoot for anywhere in the 1-5ppm range, and you'll be OK. Don't fall for the myth that phosphates cause algae. An imbalance or limiting factor (often co2) is behind most cases of algae.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Thanks for the info!


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Tested the water, did a 50% water change, and tested again.

BEFORE
Nitrate - 15
Phosphate - .25

AFTER
Nitrate - 10
Phosphate - .10

So, I'm going to start back with dosing macros. A bit less than originally for nitrates, now 1/2 tsp as opposed to 3/4 tsp. The same for phosphate, 1/4 tsp. I'll continue to monitor, and adjust accordingly. Hope I get it straightened out by Friday, because I'm leaving Saturday morning and not getting back until Wednesday, leaving my 17 year old boy to take care of the tank.:icon_eek: 

Actually, he's pretty good at this stuff, he's had 55 and 75 gallon tanks himself, so I'm comfortable with him doing this. Just not sure what levels to have him dose. Hmmmm... 

Algae is still there, I'm siphoning it off with an airline hose, comes out pretty well. Hopefully I'll get the dosing 'ok', and with the oto's it'll stop coming back.

Now, on to the pictures!:tongue: 

Well, only a few. Full tank shot, with flash and without:


















One of the oto's:


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## CobraGuppy (Sep 23, 2007)

nice tank! 

Your hc carpet is filling in slowly but surely 

Is the plant next to your L. Arcuata still the Rotala Rotundifolia you said you had there in your first post?

It looks really different from my rotala rotundifolia


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Thanks! The HC was filling in nicely, but since I cut the photoperiod back to 4 hours it's started to grow vertically, and the leaves are starting to turn brown. I've just bumped the photoperiod back to 7 hours, so we'll see. And I had a couple of plants mislabeled in that first post. The rotala and sunset hygro should have been switched. What's happening is the rotala is grown slowly, and the hygro is growing fast, so it's overtaking the rotala. You're probably looking at the hygro in this latest photo. There is also a stand of bacopa carolina behind the ludwigia and hygro. I'm starting to think I've got too many different types of plants.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Time for an update. Algae is almost gone, just a bit of green algae on the rocks and glass. I've had to trim twice so far, the last time two days ago. All plants seem to be doing real well, some growing faster than others, but all doing well. Phosphate was low, so I've been dosing extra to get it up, and I've seen a couple of holes in the crypt leaves, so I've started dosing potassium. I've just added 18 cardinals (woohoo!), and have 30 amano's on order. Now a few pictures, again, sorry for the bad quality:














































Those pictures don't really do it justice, I'm very pleased with the progress.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Couple more pictures, and then a funny story...



















When I left the lfs today with the cardinals and a couple containers of fish food, my eyes started getting a bit itchy. I itched, they got worse. And worse. And worse. Watering, red, puffy. I have slight hay-fever, and figured something in the air just got to me. I get home, my 17 year old says "what did you do to your eyes!?". Heh. Anyway, my wife gets home about 2 hours later, and says "what did you do to your eyes!?". I tell them it's probably hay-fever, etc. About an hour later, my wife looks at me and says "Hey! Remember when you had your last fish tank, something gave you the same reaction?". Doh. About 14 years ago I had a 29 gallon community, that I fed flakes, tubifex worms, and frozen/live brine shrimp. One day I decided to get some freeze-dried blood worms. I had this same reaction one day, after feeding the fish. Didn't make the connection. Next time I fed the blood worms, same reaction. Third times a charm, I finally made the connection. I tried feeding the blood worms a 4th time just to make sure. Yep, sure enough, I'm allergic to freeze-dried blood worms.:tongue: And I had forgotten. So, today I got the reaction just from handling the container, never even opened it up. I had my boy put it in a ziplock back, so I can take it back to the lfs and get credit for it.

_Whew, that was a bit of rambling, eh? _


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## stargate_geek (Mar 31, 2008)

Awesome looking tank!

I'm trying to pin down what I'm allergic to with my aquarium "stuff" too... I haven't fed bloodworms in a long time, so it's not that. And I'm trying to eliminates certain foods (I have many food allergies myself, so it seemed logical), but sometimes i react and sometimes not. I better not be allergic to the fish themselves! Oh well... hives for now... I'm NOT getting rid of the tank(ssssss) :icon_lol:


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Of the 18, 6 are dead, I can find 9 live ones, and can't find three of them. Checked the water parameters:

Temp: 80
PH 6.6
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 40
Phosphate - .35
KH - 5
GH - 6

I drip acclimated them for an hour and a half. Any ideas?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Cardinals are touchy. Most are wild-caught. Getting good stock can be pretty tough. Lost any more since the first day or two?


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

6 left, 7 bodies found, 5 missing. But the 6 left sure look good!


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Update time. I added 6 more cardinals, now I have 12, and 4 rummy's, all of which seem to be healthy. Algae problem is gone, but now I've got a regulator that won't hold the bubble count, and no more fish budget to get another one. So, once or twice a day, I fiddle with the regulator to get the bubble count right. Seems to be working. Here are a couple of pics from tonight, bad photography skills and all. First with no flash, second with flash:


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

the plants are growing in very well, good job.


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## Chrisinator (Jun 5, 2008)

Awesome tank! Jealous hits me


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## tlef316 (May 10, 2008)

beautiful tank. those background plants have filled in really well.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Thanks! Some plants are doing better than others, but overall I'm very pleased with it so far. A bunch of the HC got uprooted after I put 30 Amano shrimp in it, but what's left seems to be rooted nicely. The plants in the back right side are growing much slower than the rest (rotala sp. green, Bacopa Monneri), and I've got some bacopa carolina in the very back of the left side that had been growing fairly well but is now being completely outgrown by the Sunset Hygro and the Ludwigia arcuata, so I'm going to have to figure out something else to do this those plants. I also plan on getting more cardinals and rummy's, maybe some silver hatchets, and a few angels.


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## markalot (Apr 8, 2007)

> Of the 18, 6 are dead, I can find 9 live ones, and can't find three of them. Checked the water parameters:
> 
> Temp: 80
> PH 6.6
> ...


Isn't that Nitrate a bit high? I keep mine below 5 (for my red plants) but the way I understand it below 20 is ideal.

In my opinion with limited experience I would not introduce neons or cardinals to a tank less than 6 months old. There are all kind of 'cycles' going on in new tanks that these fish can't seem to handle.

I think your aquarium looks great by the way, natural looking.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Yeah, the nitrate was high. It's steadied at between 10 and 20, without dosing. After I introduced the first batch of cardinals, the tank went through a cycle, as I was getting nitrite readings. Never ammonia. So, I waited until the nitrate reading was zero, then waited another week before adding any more fish.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Small update. I now have a full fish load, and the plants are doing well for the most part. My ludwigia got very leggy, so I cut the tops off, got rid of the bottom part, and replanted the tops. So far so good. Amano's dug up quite a bit of my HC, I'm just letting the rest go and see what happens. Fish:

13 cardinals
10 rummy's
10 lemon tetras
6 angels
4 dwarf neon rainbows
5 oto's


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

Nice! Great depth! I really like your tank


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## CobraGuppy (Sep 23, 2007)

Awesome tank as always!

Jeez, is that e tennelus in the front right? I didn't know it got that tall lol.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Thanks for the comments! Yep, that's e tennelus. I didn't know it got that tall either, or I wouldn't have gotten it. It's kinda growing on me, though (no pun intended).


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If it keeps getting taller, I suspect you may actually have E. angustifolius, not E. tenellus. Do the runners stay under the surface of the substrate, or are they on top and turn green?

Tank looks gorgeous! :thumbsup:


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

On top and turning green.


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## cah925 (May 18, 2007)

very nice, hopefully that HC will fill in for you.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

20 20 said:


> On top and turning green.


Pretty sure then that you have E. angustifolius. How wide are the leaves?


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Maybe 3/8 inch, fairly narrow.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Just looked up "Echinodorus Angustifolia" in the 'plant profiles', and that's not what I've got, if the picture is accurate. The Angustifolia is 'twisted', mine is not, in fact, it looks exactly like the picture of the tenellus.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

No, you must have looked at E. angustifolius 'vesuvius'

Here's both in my tank:

E. angustifolius:
(from the top, 25" tall tank)









From the bottom, showing the green runners:









E. angustifolius 'vesuvius':










E. tenellus runners stay under the substrate, and therefore stay white.

There's at least 2 (maybe 4) varieties of E. tenellus, but none should get taller than 6-8" and their leaves shouldn't be broader than 3mm.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Yep, you're right, I was looking at the E. angustifolius 'vesuvius'. And yep, you're right again, mine looks like your E. angustifolius. Runners above ground, green. How tall will the E. angustifolius get?


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Pulled out the sunset hygro, it just grew too fast and overshadowed everything on that side of the tank. two new pics, one with flash and one without (yeah, I'm horrible with a camera):






















I also did some 'organizing' in my stand, built a couple of small shelves to hang on a door. Egg crate, twist ties, and those 'sticky' hooks you can get from Walmart:


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## Chrisinator (Jun 5, 2008)

Awesome set-up!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

20 20 said:


> Yep, you're right, I was looking at the E. angustifolius 'vesuvius'. And yep, you're right again, mine looks like your E. angustifolius. Runners above ground, green. How tall will the E. angustifolius get?


Oops, sorry- never caught this question.

In my tank it's staying as tall as yours is now (I was hoping it would get taller), but it can grow 18"+; the original growth that mine arrived with when I bought it was about that.

I like the rescape, and I think it will look REALLY nice once the foreground grows in.

I do think that you need a midground plant now in the left in front of the stems, and the E. angustifolius needs some thinning.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

I've been thinking of an Anubius nana for the left front, I could put it on that small piece of driftwood. And I've thinned out the E. angustifolius a few times already, but have let it go for a bit. Yep, it's time for a thinning again.  And I'm not having much luck with the HC, it keeps getting uprooted.


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Update after a battle with BBA that I've finally won, first pic without flash (blurry), second pic with flash:




















Excel and upping my CO2 finally beat the bba/ The HC is looking healthier and is starting to _slowly_ spread. Thinned out the E. angustifolius, and moved some other plants around a bit. I'm liking the way it's starting to look, but you know I just can't keep my hands out of the tank!


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## klumsyninja (Apr 16, 2008)

Gorgeous. 

Great job, love the stand doors gotta do something like that in mine too!


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Thanks! Wish I could take better pictures, but a bad camera combined with lousy photography skills, well, you see what you get. I spent an hour tonight catching little bits of HC that have gotten uprooted and stuck in all the other plants, and then replanted them, hopefully they'll stay. If not, the hunt will be on again!


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## CAM6467 (Feb 11, 2009)

Updates? This thread is awesome and I want to see more!


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

I got tired of the overgrown look, so I pulled/trimed a lot of plants. The pics look kind of bare now, buti real life it looks great, not bare, and the fish are showcased a bit more. In fact I was thinking of getting rid of the plants and switching to African cichlids, but once I did the big trim, I'm back in love with the tank. I'm looking for a smallish red plant (started a different thread on that), and I'm thinking of 'maybe' glosso, since I couldn't stand replanting 1/4 of my HC every week as it floated around the tank. So, the pics:


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## CobraGuppy (Sep 23, 2007)

Nice tank, your crypts are huge!


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## 20 20 (Feb 7, 2008)

Something has been bothering me about my tank, but I couldn't put a finger on until a week or so ago, but it finally hit me. Even after the major trim/hack of 2 weeks ago, I realized that the plants were still overwhelming the tank, so much so that the fish took a back seat to the plants. Stuffed with plants, the fish were hard to see. I want a much more evenly balanced tank, with the plants and the fish complimenting each other. Look at the picture of my tank a few posts above, that was right after the major trim I had mentioned in the first post of the thread, and it's still too much 'plant' for me. Too many big crypts, not enough open water, not enough balance and color. So, I've begun a fairly major rescaping. This includes
- Pulling most of the crypts and quite a bit of the other plants
- removing one of the two rocks in the tank
- Aquiring 3 new plants: Pogostemon stellatus 'broad leaf', Pogostemon stellatus 'narrow leaf', and alternanthera reineckii.

The pogostemon stellatus is doing well, but the alternanthera reineckii arrived in fairly bad shape, my fault with the shipping arrangements and weather. I've got half the tank looking like I want it, but still need to work on the other half (more pulling/trimming), and let the alternanthera reineckii recover. Once that has happened I'll take more pictures, and also decide if I want any other/more small plants or maybe a 'carpet' of glosso.


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