# Dirt tank question :confused:



## iskandarreza (Jul 4, 2011)

Why not have clusters of plants that pull nutrients primarily from the water column? I'm thinking some java fern varieties and anubias.


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## allaboutfish (Oct 14, 2011)

a tank full of anachris would make quick work of ammonia and all that jaz


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Yeah, umm. I think that plants in dirt might uptake more through the roots than they normally do. Dirt is amazing stuff. The relationship with the roots is much more beneficial than plain gravel.


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## Gtdad2 (Nov 21, 2010)

Water Lettuce would also do a fine job of pulling those nitrates out of the water column. However, I'm sure your still going to need weekly water changes, with goldfish, no matter what plants you use. What size tank is it and how many fish?


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I would really like to use water violet, vals, and a few other specific choices. Not anacharis, for fear of coming home to a million leaves floating around freely. I think I can pull all of the nitrogen out, because I have only two fish in a 70gal.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I think the best setup would be having everything the plants cannot get from the water in the substrate and nothing else (maybe just iron?). Force them to use the nitrogen in the water.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Lets say I tear it down and replant in shallow pots and put some nice looking root feeders in dirt pots and the functional plants (leaf feeding nitrate sponges) in pool filter sand or some such. Does this sound like a good approach? Can leaf feeders do well in plain sand? How well? I am a plant newb and don't know what I would have to dose, or how often. (I am not asking that here, I'll do the research). I just want to know if you think the N suckers would do their job better in inert media.


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## D9VIN (Aug 23, 2011)

In ecology of the planted aquarium by Diana walstad, she claims that plants prefer leaf uptake of ammonia, so I don't really think a reasonably heavily planted 70 gallon with two goldfish would have any problem. How big are these goldfish? One other thing to consider though, most carp such as goldfish love eating plants. I feed my extra duckweed to my grandfathers comets in his pond...


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

So Diana says they prefer the water source, but wont they go after the plentiful ammonia in the new dirt rather than the nitrate in the water? She never stocked heavily.


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## zdnet (Aug 13, 2010)

Gold Finger said:


> Given a rich substrate to draw from, plants will take up less nitrogen from the water column, right?


According to Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, plants prefer to take up nitrogen from water, not substrate.


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## zdnet (Aug 13, 2010)

Gold Finger said:


> So Diana says they prefer the water source, but wont they go after the plentiful ammonia in the new dirt rather than the nitrate in the water?


No. That won't reduce the uptake from leaf.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

So you suggest I keep the dirt for the plants benefit? Do you think the plants might even take more N out of the water due to being more vigorous?


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## zdnet (Aug 13, 2010)

Gold Finger said:


> So you suggest I keep the dirt for the plants benefit?


Yes. That is what I would do. However, as others had already pointed out, gold fish like salads.



Gold Finger said:


> Do you think the plants might even take more N out of the water due to being more vigorous?


The amount of nitrogen uptake depends on how much is in the water. Plants will take up more if there is more in the water.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

zdnet said:


> The amount of nitrogen uptake depends on how much is in the water. Plants will take up more if there is more in the water.


Oh. Thanks for helping a poor newb. I thought it was the amount of light that drove nutrient uptake, not the level of nutrient present.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

zdnet said:


> Yes. That is what I would do. However, as others had already pointed out, gold fish like salads.


Plants are not a problem. There are many that goldfish won't eat, and plenty of planted goldfish tanks. The difficulty is overstated in general, though there are plants you simply can't have.


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## zdnet (Aug 13, 2010)

Gold Finger said:


> I thought it was the amount of light that drove nutrient uptake, not the level of nutrient present.


It does. The more intense is the light, the faster is the nutrient uptake.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

zdnet said:


> It does. The more intense is the light, the faster is the nutrient uptake.


Thanks to you, D9vin, and the other posters. I understand now that the ammonia in the dirt won't mean higher nitrate levels in the water column, but, Um.. so then I guess I don't understand your earlier remark "The amount of nitrogen uptake depends on how much is in the water. Plants will take up more if there is more in the water." I want to understand what you are saying because I think it may be something else I can apply to keeping my nitrates down besides planting lots of fast growers.


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## zdnet (Aug 13, 2010)

Gold Finger said:


> Thanks to you, D9vin, and the other posters. I understand now that the ammonia in the dirt won't mean higher nitrate levels in the water column, but, Um.. so then I guess I don't understand your earlier remark "The amount of nitrogen uptake depends on how much is in the water. Plants will take up more if there is more in the water."


The above comment that you quoted was in respond to your concern that plants may stop taking up nutrients after getting the required amount. 

Regardless of the speed of nutrient uptake (which is affected by light intensity), plants do not stop taking up nutrients after getting the required amount. Plants will just keep taking up the extra and store them for later use. IOW, plants will take up more nutrients if there are more in the water.

Does that make sense now?


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Yeah. Wow. That's a mindblower for me. I never knew that. thanks for takin' the time to clarify for me. Went lookin' for a "light bulb" smiley to express what a revelation that is to me roud:


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## AquaLED (Oct 25, 2011)

Hey, how do your goldfish do in your planted tank?

I've had to bring in my goldfish from my outdoor pond (winter coming) and putting them in my 60 gal indoor planted tank. Generally stocked with tetras, rasboras, zebra / leopard danios, and ram cichlids (I like the larger schools of smaller fish in a big tank).

Well, within hours they nearly uprooted most of the "root" type plants I had in there. And I am talking about giant vals as well (Valisneria Gigantea). I thought those at least were goldfish proof. They only one they didn't get was the amazon sword which has a ridiculous root structure. They even managed to dislodge half of the anubias nanas I had TIED DOWN to some bog wood. 

Last winter, I had them in a separate gravel only 15 gal tank that they had to themselves, so I was not really privy as to their "active" lives. But I figured they would enjoy the extra swimming room this winter. I kind of regret my decision now.

As for the substrate, about 3-4 inches of dirt (well technically peat, not actually the dirt recommended to be used) and about 2 inches of quartz gravel. How they manage to disturb that much layer and cause a bunch of dirt to come out (along with my plants) beats me.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

If you are talking about single tailed fish, I strongly reccomend you consider hibernating them. They don't belong in tanks IMO. I hibernated my pond fish every winter for years. Almost frozen solid. Never lost a fish.


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## AquaLED (Oct 25, 2011)

I really would, the only problem being that the pond they were in was too shallow. Not deep enough so that it would not freeze through.

Perhaps this upcoming spring I will try to re-dig it and make it deeper, that way it won't freeze all the way to the bottom.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Crypts, swords, vals, dwarf sag, and most other rooted plants pull nutrients from the substrate 

Stem plants pull in fertilizers from the water column.

Both benefit from a rich substrate and water column fertilizers, but won't use them equally.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I kept mine snoozin' in a plastic garbage can in a room heated to 5 above zero.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Hilde said:


> Crypts, swords, vals, dwarf sag, and most other rooted plants pull nutrients from the substrate
> 
> Stem plants pull in fertilizers from the water column.
> 
> Both benefit from a rich substrate and water column fertilizers, but won't use them equally.


So my plan to use vals to consume fish waste is a dud? I thought any fast grower would take from the water column. I should stick to stems then, Huh?


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Hilde said:


> Crypts, swords, vals, dwarf sag, and most other rooted plants pull nutrients from the substrate
> 
> Stem plants pull in fertilizers from the water column.
> 
> Both benefit from a rich substrate and water column fertilizers, but won't use them equally.


Thanks Hilde. I'll definitely stick with stems for this purpose then. But maybe the Vals are an exception because of their super fast growth? I googled and found a bunch of anecdotal stuff about hobbyists using Vals for lowering nitrate levels or dosing nitrate to improve their health, and even a few scientific papers studying the ability and potential use of Vals to uptake nitrate/nitrite in the wild.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Waiiiiit. Am finding more research papers. Ones with different conclusions. Better one. Am smellin' what the Hilde is cookin'. Fast growing Stems like Hydrilla _will_ uptake _more_ nitrate (and ammonium) from the water column than fast growing Rosettes like Vallisnaria.


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## AquaLED (Oct 25, 2011)

@Gold Finger

I thought about doing that. What type of filtration do you provide, if any? Seeing as you are probably not feeding them through winter.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

AquaLED said:


> @Gold Finger
> 
> I thought about doing that. What type of filtration do you provide, if any? Seeing as you are probably not feeding them through winter.


None. They don't eat. They hardly breathe. I always used an air stone. (past tense- I don't keep pond fish anymore) I don't think they needed it for air; it was there to stop the top from freezing over in case the temp. dropped. I don't think I needed the air stone either; shallow ponds which freeze over but not solid are fine for hibernating goldfish. They can actually be frozen solid if you do it right, but I have never done that. The only key factor is to make sure you starve their guts empty before you do it. I live where the temp drops below minus 30. If your temp does not get so low, consider hibernating them in the pond by keeping the water from freezing by using water movement at the surface. Then you wouldn't have to bring them in.


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## AquaLED (Oct 25, 2011)

Thanks for the reply. I think I will do this with them. Put them in the garage in a makeshift "aquarium" and just have an airstone or pump running to make sure that the water doesn't freeze (just in case).


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## metallicanick78 (Apr 26, 2011)

I prefer useing a small surface heater to keep a small opening in my pond for gas exchange. An air stone does keep it from freezing at the surface but dosent allow the pond to stratify correctly. If you keep the water moving in below freezing condition then you can cool the water to below freezing as well. If you use the heater method, it dosent change the temp of the pond, just barely keeps the ice from freezing in a small (12") circle for gas exchange. Also it lets the pond stratify so the water on the bottom stays above freezing. Last thing is if you keep them in a trash can then you have to make sure the air temp dosent drop in that room to below freezing because the water will also. At least in the ground the soil insulates and keeps the bottom water warmer.


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