# HELP! - Ammonia for fishless cycle (SURFACTANTS)



## FewestKitten896 (Dec 13, 2013)

Unfortunately it isn't pure ammonia. The surfactant is a substance that helps when cleaning. I had to get some at ace hardware...I believe it was called janitorial ammonia...it works pretty good...not sure if you will have to tear down and restart or just do a major water change...


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

I cannot afford to tear down my entire tank - there are almost $200 worth of plants in there right now. I am going to do some emergency water changes in the next week and hope for the best.

Hopefully someone with first-hand experience in this can lend a hand... I am terrified that I ruined my entire tank.

The more I research this the more bleak my outlook becomes...


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## FewestKitten896 (Dec 13, 2013)

Yeah I am not sure...I think if you did enough water changes you should be ok...just gotta make sure it gets out of your substrate...but I would wait til someone else chimes in before you take my word...









Here is what the bottle looks like if you were curious...


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

I am so scared / pissed off / upset right now


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## MedRed (May 20, 2008)

Is this your dirted tank?


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Jan 16, 2013)

The foamy stuff is detergents. For peace of mind I'd breakdown the tank, and clean everything. Consider it a learning curve, plenty more ahead.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

I too would place plants in tub of dechlorinated water and tear down the tank /filters and replace all filter media and clean the tank .
Start again with fresh substrate.
I believe even with daily 70-80% water changes for a month the surfactant will still linger.
Ain't what you want to hear I know.
Could have this tank back up and running in a weekend.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

MedRed said:


> Is this your dirted tank?


Yes

I did a 90% water change last night.

I've only added in total maybe 15mL of the ammonia solution... If I do 10+ 90%+ water changes does anyone think I would have a chance? I am not really willing to waste $100s of substrate / plants on redoing the entire thing. If it wasn't a dirt tank and I didn't already have an HC carpet- maybe. But it is...


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## Bushkill (Feb 15, 2012)

I can be a little on the practical side about stuff like this and certainly feel your pain. With only 15ml added and a 90% water change under your belt, I would just keep up with the water changes at a higher percentage than even I would do for a while longer, run carbon, check parameters and then start cycling over again. I'm certain you'll get differing opinions here.

On a semi-related note, most bleaches have surfactants in them now as well. They make the bleach thicker and less prone to splashing so you don't get little bleach spots on clothes and stuff in the area. What makes it really tough is that the majority don't even list it as an ingredient. With plastics it's not a big deal since rinsing well is all it takes, but any sort of fabric needs extensive rinsing before re-use. I have no idea how this effects regenerating Purigen.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

klibs said:


> Yes
> 
> I did a 90% water change last night.
> 
> I've only added in total maybe 15mL of the ammonia solution... If I do 10+ 90%+ water changes does anyone think I would have a chance? I am not really willing to waste $100s of substrate / plants on redoing the entire thing. If it wasn't a dirt tank and I didn't already have an HC carpet- maybe. But it is...


 Dirt is cheap, and plant's could possibly be salvaged by placing them in tub as suggested but it's your call.
The filter will need good cleaning and I would without a doubt get rid of the media that has been affected and replace it.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

How sure are we that I'm screwed though? Will trace amounts of this stuff make a tank unlivable for its entire life?

Everything I read is just people saying "oh you have to tear it down" without and proof to back why it is totally necessary to tear the entire thing down.

It will be a major time/$$$ investment to go through setting this tank up again - mostly due to the fact that it is dirted and I do not want to mineralize my mixture. Would a THOROUGH rinsing of my eco complete cap do the trick? Can the dirt be saved? I am VERY reluctant to replace EVERYTHING in the tank...


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Just forget the ammonia all together. Run the tank for a month or two then add fish.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

BruceF said:


> Just forget the ammonia all together. Run the tank for a month or two then add fish.


But will any soap/detergent/surfactants linger and still ruin the tank?

I am totally fine with doing frequent, large, water changes on this tank and waiting it out for a few months w/o fish if the problem has a chance of going away

Edit: I have also read that activated carbon can help vs. this sort of thing. Lucky for me I have a TON of this stuff so I will load up my canisters when I get back...


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

People spray soap on plants all the time to kill off insects. So change the water some and change the carbon some and don't worry about it.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Also I am going to put some live fish in there to see if they survive (don't get mad at me).
Is it a reasonable assumption that if they survive for a week or two that I could be safe?


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## Aqua nut (Jul 5, 2014)

All you had to do is go to your lfs and get some API Quickstart. 
google it.. I hate to be rude but,Who ever started this ammonia BS should be shot!!
I'm never like this,but it just erks me. why put harmful chemicals in your tanks???
I've been fish keeping for 17 years now. There is always new safer products out there.
Whew.. Glad I got this off my chest. Sorry I just had to vent .


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Aqua nut said:


> All you had to do is go to your lfs and get some API Quickstart.
> google it.. I hate to be rude but,Who ever started this ammonia BS should be shot!!
> I'm never like this,but it just erks me. why put harmful chemicals in your tanks???
> I've been fish keeping for 17 years now. There is always new safer products out there.
> Whew.. Glad I got this off my chest. Sorry I just had to vent .


Yes I know... Thanks for confirming how mad I should be at myself though (I am very mad at myself lol)
This is what I get for trying to save a few bucks / avoid potentially killing a few fish...


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## MedRed (May 20, 2008)

I'm not sure why you'd add ammonia to a dirted tank. You already have an ammonia source.


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## 691175002 (Apr 28, 2009)

Your tank will be fine.

Surfactants are literally just dish soap. You have essentially put a few drops of soap into a cup of water, and then 15mL of that soapy water into your tank.

Obviously fish wouldn't have been very happy, but a few water changes and possibly some carbon and it will be fine.

There are people out there who wash their aquarium equipment with soap because they don't know any better.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

691175002 said:


> Your tank will be fine.
> 
> Surfactants are literally just dish soap. You have essentially put a few drops of soap into a cup of water, and then 15mL of that soapy water into your tank.
> 
> ...


This is along my line of thinking...
I am going to tough it out and if things look bad after a little while then I will go into panic mode and re-do everything. As long as my plants will be fine (I think they will be) I am willing to be VERY patient with regards to adding livestock. If my tank was bare w/just substrate (no dirt) and no plants then I would have no problem cleaning it all out.

I have come too far


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## jfynyson (Apr 15, 2013)

Even if your 15mL of ammoniated solution was 100% surfactant (which it's not of course) then 15mL into a 75gal tank (figure 283,875mL that is) is only 0.00528% or 53ppm total surfactant. A 90% water change puts you at 5ppm (very roughly) of that solution now. Normal bacteria in the water will eat up that little bit of surfactant pretty quickly as well. Carbon will help bind some too.

No worries here at all. roud:

Live & Learn though.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

jfynyson said:


> Even if your 15mL of ammoniated solution was 100% surfactant (which it's not of course) then 15mL into a 75gal tank (figure 283,875mL that is) is only 0.00528% or 53ppm total surfactant. A 90% water change puts you at 5ppm (very roughly) of that solution now. Normal bacteria in the water will eat up that little bit of surfactant pretty quickly as well. Carbon will help bind some too.
> 
> No worries here at all. roud:
> 
> Live & Learn though.


Thanks for your input - I am certainly going to load my canisters up with carbon later / boil & rinse all of the media in there now. Hopefully I can survive this...


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## jfynyson (Apr 15, 2013)

Also...do you have another tank up & running or have a friend with a tank with water conditions you trust are sound ? If so, then simply get some of that water ~say a 5gal pail or two and add it to your filter & tank. The bacteria will be there to help more quickly seed your system. I've done this a couple times in the past and recently upgraded my filter. I kept my old filter media in the old filter, added the new one for a few weeks then removed my old filter's media and now simply use it to push my CO2 through the reactor with better flow. Once things stabilize I'd remove the carbon.

Best of luck.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

jfynyson said:


> Also...do you have another tank up & running or have a friend with a tank with water conditions you trust are sound ? If so, then simply get some of that water ~say a 5gal pail or two and add it to your filter & tank. The bacteria will be there to help more quickly seed your system. I've done this a couple times in the past and recently upgraded my filter. I kept my old filter media in the old filter, added the new one for a few weeks then removed my old filter's media and now simply use it to push my CO2 through the reactor with better flow. Once things stabilize I'd remove the carbon.
> 
> Best of luck.


Yes I will be doing this. I have a stable 30G that has been up for years.


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## lochaber (Jan 23, 2012)

If you don't have fish in it, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I think a few other people on here have made similar mistakes, and most of the advice I've seen given to them was basically:

Switch to a surfactant-free ammonia source

Do a water change or few

Continue with your cycle normally.

I imagine that betwixt the water changes and the cycling time, most of the surfactant that got into your tank will either be removed via water changes, broken down by microbes, or stuck to surfaces and then covered in biofilms (which will eventually get broken down by microbes).


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

lochaber said:


> If you don't have fish in it, I wouldn't worry too much about it.
> 
> I think a few other people on here have made similar mistakes, and most of the advice I've seen given to them was basically:
> 
> ...


Again, thank you everyone for your responses.

I put 3 black skirt tetras in tonight as well as a solid amount of activated carbon in my filters. None of the tetras seem to be having a bad time after a few hours. We will see how they fare in the coming days...

More large water changes to come! Praying for the best..


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## MedRed (May 20, 2008)

You messed up yesterday with ammonia, then added fish today? C'mon man! I don't know a lot of details, but I'm assuming you were using ammonia to cycle the tank. If that's the case, cycling with fish is cruel to the fish. If not, disregard. 

Also, there's no need to add ammonia to cycle a dirted tank as the dirt is going to create the ammonia that will kickstart the cycle. Maybe I don't have enough details, but this just seems all over the place.


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## Pandanke (Jun 13, 2014)

This is a little confusing for sure, but definitely I would not add any fish until you clear up the situation.

This involves, at minimum:
- Discarding basically all filtration media, which will wreck your cycle. 
- 90% water change -and then some- probably going to want to try to clean the bottom as best as possible, really swish the plants. You'll need at least a couple changes of 50% after that 90% for fish safeness, in my opinion.
- Reseeding the media and restarting your cycle. You mentioned you have a 30g going, just take some of the old media in it and pop it on over. Carbon will help to remove the chemicals.

If your tank is heavily planted, dirted, and with some seeded media, you should be good to slowly begin adding fish over the course of a week. Go slow. Very slow. Test often.

You don't want to lose livestock to this mistake, and if you're unwilling to change out everything in it, which is understandable, do your due diligence to your fish and clean it out as best as possible before adding anyone.


Edit: Saw you put fish in already. I really wouldn't have recommended that, especially since you have to re-cycle...


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Can google "effects of soap or surfactant's in the aquarium"
Don't take much to have negative effect on fishes.(as little as 5ppm)
I place a much higher value on fishes I care for than weed's.


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## navarro1950 (Jul 25, 2014)

15ml in 72gals is not that much. Do the water changes and keep a close eye on your tank and do like BruceF said add a couple of platies and pray they survive.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

navarro1950 said:


> 15ml in 72gals is not that much. Do the water changes and keep a close eye on your tank and do like BruceF said add a couple of platies and pray they survive.


Pretty much exactly what I'm doing right now.

I know its inhumane, etc. to throw fish in right now but it's a ridiculous risk for me to take extreme enough action to potentially kill some of my plants. 1/2 HC carpet is absolutely not going to waste here... That + other plants so far value at over $150 and A LOT of time on my part. 3 tetras value at $5 and a trip to the LFS. I'm sorry but it only seems logical to test this right off the bat - not going to be the end of the world if a few fish die because of it. #1 priority is fixing my tank params ASAP and seeing if anything is capable of living in there right now - not worrying if a few tetras have the best life possible when I am eventually going to remove them / give back to LFS anyways.

I feel I have received enough responses saying I should be fine to break everything down after coming this far... Updates on how things go to come. Will be doing another 70%+ water change in the next day or so.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Well,I half understand but would have likely just waited to see how plants did after water changes/carbon.
Let's say the few tetra's do OK, but then subsequent fishes added begin to show distress or flat out die or the tetra's do. Then what do you blame?Bad stock ? Fertz ?(alway's a likely suspect for some),Parasites,bacteria, etc etc.
If you only added the one dose,then perhaps the damage will be miniscule and tank will be OK but do consider cleaning the filter media if you can't/wont replace it.
This is where all the water flows through and everything collects.
With plants and healthy bacteria from the 30 gal you have already established..there was no need for the ammonia at all.(just sayin for future reference)


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

roadmaster said:


> Well,I half understand but would have likely just waited to see how plants did after water changes/carbon.
> Let's say the few tetra's do OK, but then subsequent fishes added begin to show distress or flat out die or the tetra's do. Then what do you blame?Bad stock ? Fertz ?(alway's a likely suspect for some),Parasites,bacteria, etc etc.
> If you only added the one dose,then perhaps the damage will be miniscule and tank will be OK but do consider cleaning the filter media if you can't/wont replace it.
> This is where all the water flows through and everything collects.
> With plants and healthy bacteria from the 30 gal you have already established..there was no need for the ammonia at all.(just sayin for future reference)


I am replacing the media in the next few days - waiting on an order to come in. You're right that it is very important to do this at the least. Along with the media change I will throw some more in from my 30 gallon as well as do a large water change while I'm at it... Also going to do a simultaneous water change on the 30 gallon and put at least 10 gallons from that into the 'problem tank'.
Thanks again for the advice.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

klibs said:


> I am replacing the media in the next few days - waiting on an order to come in. You're right that it is very important to do this at the least. Along with the media change I will throw some more in from my 30 gallon as well as do a large water change while I'm at it... Also going to do a simultaneous water change on the 30 gallon and put at least 10 gallons from that into the 'problem tank'.
> Thanks again for the advice.


 
Little to gain by adding water from your thirty gallon as the bacteria aren't free floating but rather they cling to hard objects.
Better to add some filter media from the thirty gal to help establish bacterial colony in the problem tank.
In a healthy aquarium,you could remove as much as half the filter media and stuff it in the filter of the problem tank along with new media or cleaned media.


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## MedRed (May 20, 2008)

klibs said:


> Pretty much exactly what I'm doing right now.
> 
> I know its inhumane, etc. to throw fish in right now but it's a ridiculous risk for me to take extreme enough action to potentially kill some of my plants. 1/2 HC carpet is absolutely not going to waste here... That + other plants so far value at over $150 and A LOT of time on my part. 3 tetras value at $5 and a trip to the LFS. I'm sorry but it only seems logical to test this right off the bat - not going to be the end of the world if a few fish die because of it. #1 priority is fixing my tank params ASAP and seeing if anything is capable of living in there right now - not worrying if a few tetras have the best life possible when I am eventually going to remove them / give back to LFS anyways.
> 
> I feel I have received enough responses saying I should be fine to break everything down after coming this far... Updates on how things go to come. Will be doing another 70%+ water change in the next day or so.


Disgusted by that mentality, but whatever. There was absolutely no need to put ammonia in a dirted tank in the first place. The worst thing is that damage that could have been done to your plants could have been sustained already regardless of adding fish or not. Also, whatever might harm your plants might not have the same effect on fish. In other words, unnecessary. 

If you were really that worried about the $$$ you would have done thing right in the first place and then not cut more corners after the mistake was made. /rant


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

MedRed said:


> Disgusted by that mentality, but whatever. There was absolutely no need to put ammonia in a dirted tank in the first place. The worst thing is that damage that could have been done to your plants could have been sustained already regardless of adding fish or not. Also, whatever might harm your plants might not have the same effect on fish. In other words, unnecessary.
> 
> If you were really that worried about the $$$ you would have done thing right in the first place and then not cut more corners after the mistake was made. /rant


 
We all make mistakes. No need to pile on the what if's
or should have could haves.(can we agree?)
Hard to do the right thing from the outset if you don't know what the right thing is.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

At the end of the day I'm going to do what I feel will be best - if there are disagreements I can understand. Bottom line is that I don't need a scolding here - I 100% realize I messed up... I need advice and suggestions vs. just slamming me for mistakes and highlighting what I _should_ have done. I made this thread in a panic because it's too late to do the right thing.



roadmaster said:


> We all make mistakes. No need to pile on the what if's
> or should have could haves.(can we agree?)
> Hard to do the right thing from the outset if you don't know what the right thing is.


I agree with this post wholeheartedly. This is my first dirt tank / high tech setup and I went into this knowing I could be in over my head. I do not completely know what I'm doing. Learning a ton from this process - but it has been painful at times lol... Made many mistakes so far but no disasters large enough to ruin everything (yet)


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

klibs said:


> At the end of the day I'm going to do what I feel will be best - if there are disagreements I can understand. Bottom line is that I don't need a scolding here - I 100% realize I messed up... I need advice and suggestions vs. just slamming me for mistakes and highlighting what I _should_ have done. I made this thread in a panic because it's too late to do the right thing.
> 
> 
> I agree with this post wholeheartedly. This is my first dirt tank / high tech setup and I went into this knowing I could be in over my head. I do not completely know what I'm doing. Learning a ton from this process - but it has been painful at times lol... Made many mistakes so far but no disasters large enough to ruin everything (yet)


I just went through this with the same product at walmart. I cycled the setup with that ammonia, fed the setup for probably a couple of weeks with fish food, then added 8 fish (4 platies, 4 mollies). They all died within 24 hrs....yes, they were very healthy when I bought them. That was back at the beginning of June. Since, I have not added any more fish, but the plants are fine, and now I have pond snails....so, I think things are ok. I do have some algae issues, but I would definitely say that is not in any way related to the use of the ammonia.

The tank definitely cycled with that ammonia, so I do not believe that it prevents or kills beneficial bacteria.

I also cannot say that it was the surfactants that killed the fish, but that would be my first guess. Maybe my acclimation of them was not sufficient.

Personally, I would not go through everything of breaking the tank down, etc, etc, etc. Your plants should be fine along with your bacterial colonies. Personally, I would just suggest doing some major water changes, waiting a month (treat it as a normal plant-only tank) and then get a couple test fish to see....maybe some snails. Good Luck! roud:


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Naja002 said:


> I just went through this with the same product at walmart. I cycled the setup with that ammonia, fed the setup for probably a couple of weeks with fish food, then added 8 fish (4 platies, 4 mollies). They all died within 24 hrs....yes, they were very healthy when I bought them. That was back at the beginning of June. Since, I have not added any more fish, but the plants are fine, and now I have pond snails....so, I think things are ok. I do have some algae issues, but I would definitely say that is not in any way related to the use of the ammonia.
> 
> The tank definitely cycled with that ammonia, so I do not believe that it prevents or kills beneficial bacteria.
> 
> ...


Good to hear... Thank you for your response!
I also have some minuscule snails that popped up (rarely can I look at this as a good thing) and my 3 black skirt tetras have been in there for a few days with no signs of distress.

I will update as time goes on...


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## FewestKitten896 (Dec 13, 2013)

klibs said:


> Good to hear... Thank you for your response!
> I also have some minuscule snails that popped up (rarely can I look at this as a good thing) and my 3 black skirt tetras have been in there for a few days with no signs of distress.
> 
> I will update as time goes on...


Glad to hear everything is going alright.


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## lochaber (Jan 23, 2012)

Apologies if I wasn't clear in my last post, when I said complete the cycle, I was meaning a fishless cylce, which typically runs about 3-4 weeks, including a whole bunch of water changes.

Anyways, I understand that's not an option for you, so I guess I'd try carbon and lots of water changes, and hoping for the best?

Snails aren't a great indicator of anything other then you having snails in your tank. They do great in all sorts of horrible conditions. I had a thriving snail population in a tank that was getting daily doses of 5ppm ammonia, and it didn't affect them in the least.

Also, the dirt will only help cycling if it's high in fertilizers/manure. MTS won't do anything, as it's effectively pre-cycled, and MGOCPM won't noticeably affect a cycle.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

lochaber said:


> Apologies if I wasn't clear in my last post, when I said complete the cycle, I was meaning a fishless cylce, which typically runs about 3-4 weeks, including a whole bunch of water changes.
> 
> Anyways, I understand that's not an option for you, so I guess I'd try carbon and lots of water changes, and hoping for the best?
> 
> ...


Current plan:

I am currently doing a large water change every other day (50% + every other day is a huge PITA with a 75 gallon but it gives me peace of mind) and running a solid amount of carbon in my filters.

Going to see if the tetras can handle another couple of days and then I will return them and resume fishless cycle with a RELIABLE ammonia source. After a good week of surviving in the tank it will give me confidence that the water is safe enough to sustain a bunch of fish in the long run...

I will also be completely replacing my filter media for when I start the fishless cycle again - totally fresh start.


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## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

klibs said:


> Current plan:
> 
> I am currently doing a large water change every other day (50% + every other day is a huge PITA with a 75 gallon but it gives me peace of mind) and running a solid amount of carbon in my filters.
> 
> ...


Having made cleaning chemicals for a living I'm of the opinion that the surfactant that was introduced to your system was negelable at best. Having read through this thread I'm of the opinion that any concerns reguarding even minute traces of surfactants at this point can probably be dismissed. Surfactants are binding/suspension agents and what hasn't been diluted out durring your water changes has been absorbed buy your current fliter carbon. Stop worrying about it, it's in the past. Besides you didn't really put that much in to begin with, a 55gal batch of that stuff is around 1/2 to 1 gal surfactant, 10 to 15 gal pure amonia, and the rest is stright water, unless it's scented or colored then scent is 1 cup, dye 1/4 cup if that. Most liquid cleaners you buy at the store are mostly water, seriously.

What I don't understand is why not just go ahead and do a fish-in cycle now that the tetras are already in there and still swiming?


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

> Surfactants are binding/suspension agents and what hasn't been diluted out durring your water changes has been absorbed buy your current fliter carbon


Ditto. 
Swap out the carbon at least once, maybe a couple of times. This will do more to get rid of the surfactants than most other things. 

In answer to those who question the fishless cycle:
It is more humane and much faster to cycle the tank with ammonia from a bottle, compared to ammonia from live fish.
A planted tank might not need the full 3 weeks that a fishless cycle can take, it could be done in a few days, if the plants bring in plenty of bacteria, and the plants are treated right so they get busy right away removing nitrogen.


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## bulgogiboy (Jan 28, 2014)

an easy way to check to see if ammonia has surfactants is to shake the bottle. If tiny micro bubbles appear then no bueno. If you don't have an Ace's Hardware store near you, try The Dollar Tree store, they sell 64 oz of "Austin" brand ammonia which is fine to use.


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## MedRed (May 20, 2008)

klibs said:


> Current plan:
> 
> I am currently doing a large water change every other day (50% + every other day is a huge PITA with a 75 gallon but it gives me peace of mind) and running a solid amount of carbon in my filters.
> 
> ...


Your tank is dirted. There's no reason to add ammonia as you already have an ammonia source. At this point, all you need to do is monitor your ammonia and nitrite. When they read zero, you are ready for a small bioload or you can use a bacteria source to prepare for a larger bioload.


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## lochaber (Jan 23, 2012)

MedRed said:


> Your tank is dirted. There's no reason to add ammonia as you already have an ammonia source. At this point, all you need to do is monitor your ammonia and nitrite. When they read zero, you are ready for a small bioload or you can use a bacteria source to prepare for a larger bioload.



Not all dirts produce ammonia, it depends on it's composition. I've done 3 tanks with MGOCPM, which is fairly commonly used, and none of them had any detectable amounts of ammonia from the soil.

I'm rather fond of the fishless cycling method, and Diane posts an excellent and thorough guide explaining how to do it properly. I understand it's not ideal for everyone, but it's excellent for some people/situations, and if done properly will give you a tank that can be stocked heavily in a single day.


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## MedRed (May 20, 2008)

I've done plenty of fishless cycles, and many of them documented here. MGOCPM does produce ammonia from the poultry litter. Depending on how much dirt and how many plants, the conversion process can happen very quickly based on how much is able to leach into the water column at any given moment. There are plenty of documented setups here with ammonia readings from MCOCPM.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Many soils will produce ammonia when they are first submerged. This ammonia production may last long enough to grow a respectable bacteria colony, or it may not produce much, and quit soon. If this happens then you can continue the fishless cycle by adding ammonia, or you can add bottled bacteria (look for Nitrospira species) and add fish right after. 

Best way to deal with this is to test the water after the soil has been submerged for a day or two and see if it is producing ammonia, and how much. 

If you test zero, that still does not mean the soil is not producing any, but that plants and bacteria are keeping it under control. Ask yourself: Can the plants and bacteria handle MORE ammonia? Like from adding fish? Add some ammonia (from a bottle) and see! 
If whatever you have in the tank (plants and bacteria) can handle 3 ppm ammonia, without any nitrite showing, in less than 24 hours then go ahead and add fish!


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Diana said:


> Many soils will produce ammonia when they are first submerged. This ammonia production may last long enough to grow a respectable bacteria colony, or it may not produce much, and quit soon. If this happens then you can continue the fishless cycle by adding ammonia, or you can add bottled bacteria (look for Nitrospira species) and add fish right after.
> 
> Best way to deal with this is to test the water after the soil has been submerged for a day or two and see if it is producing ammonia, and how much.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this. I am returning my 3 fish today and am going to add some ammonia / see what happens. Best case scenario is that my tank is already cycled - worst case is that I have to wait a few weeks to get more fish.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Still passes my understanding why folks with already established tanks such as the OP still insist on making things tougher than they need to be.
No need for ammonia if you already have healthy filter in another tank that you can borrow from to jumpstart bacteria in a new tank.
Add to this the ability of plants to take up ammonia much faster than bacteria can process it,and it would lead me to purchase more plants rather than bottle of toxin.
My two cents


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

I'm not putting the ammonia in to do a full cycle from the start - really just to test to see if the tank can kill it within 24hrs and verify that it is 100% safe for more livestock. Might be overkill / unnecessary but whatever - I'm a bit paranoid. Avoiding a mini-cycle or something of that kind when adding a group of fish would be worth the $2 in ammonia and a few days of waiting vs. the death of some fish. Just my thinking right now...


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## MedRed (May 20, 2008)

Your build thread states otherwise. It would have been nice if you would have posted the results of your water tests.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

klibs said:


> I'm not putting the ammonia in to do a full cycle from the start - really just to test to see if the tank can kill it within 24hrs and verify that it is 100% safe for more livestock. Might be overkill / unnecessary but whatever - I'm a bit paranoid. Avoiding a mini-cycle or something of that kind when adding a group of fish would be worth the $2 in ammonia and a few days of waiting vs. the death of some fish. Just my thinking right now...


 
Sometimes we overthink I think.
Let us say the three or four tetras you had were as you say ..doin OK
The tank was maturing and plant's were present also and doin OK.
This would be gradual maturing of the tank albeit slower than some can stand and after a week or two,one could add another three or four of the small tetras and so on and so on.
By removing the first few tetras now and dosing ammonia to whatever level ,it is very likely to be at higher concentration level than that which was being produced by the fish and or foods assuming sparse feeding of same few fish.
Could very well realize ammonia in ppm and this is where plant's can help compensate for immature bacterial colony in new tanks.
Alway's would opt for more plants were it me rather than possibly increasing the wait time for tank to mature.
Truly ,patience is I think the toughest part of the hobby for many.
Was this way for me when I was much younger .
Ammonia combined with often too much light and little in the way of CO2 and or fertilizer's Is hard on new plant's which have just been plopped into afore mentioned conditions.
Is however,prime environment for Algae.
Slow and steady maturing of the tank while using lot's of plants and not too much light unless you can also readily increase CO2 and fertz,is I think the way to go for those who claim they want just good steady growth albeit more slowly than gas injection . I advocateLOW tech low maint.


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