# Bare Bottom Planted



## psychofisho (Jul 21, 2018)

I've got a 10mo mature, bare bottom 50gal, with happy discus and fancy goldfish.

The plants are not as happy. I think its because there's no substrate for them, just lead strips to weigh them down.

Got lights (2.4w/g), co2, ferts/iron.

Remaining bare bottom is non-negotiable. I've asked the fish, and they really like bare bottom, so does their fishkeeper.

What to do? Give it up and learn to be happy with rock formations and artificial plants? 
Was thinking to pot each plant with squat liquor glasses (about as tall a they are wide, 3") with potting soil and gravel on top to keep the soil intact.

Another strategy; can I crazy-glue sections of baby tear drops to the leaves of aritificial anubias?


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## wastewater (Apr 5, 2010)

psychofisho said:


> I've got a 10mo mature, bare bottom 50gal, with happy discus and fancy goldfish.



You're keeping discus & fancy goldfish in a 50 gal.? How's that working out for you?


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## ValMM (Feb 22, 2011)

I would try planting in containers with gravel. Another idea is tying them to plastic mesh (like what's used for yarn crafts) with thread and then weighing that down with gravel.


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## psychofisho (Jul 21, 2018)

wastewater said:


> You're keeping discus & fancy goldfish in a 50 gal.? How's that working out for you?


I don't recommend it for everyone. Hot and cold, overstocked, undertanked, insufficient water changing, over-gassing co2 - it'll spell trouble for a lot of people. 

If you understand enough (or think you understand enough) you can get away with doing the opposite. 

I've had the fish about 8 months, got the first goldfish and discus at 2-1/2" and they are almost 5" now. 4 of each. They are very active and seem to be growing, and there's never been any illness or health problems. 

Like I said they seem to be happy. And like I also said, don't try this at home, kids. I've got a solution/excuse for all of the anomalies (but mostly, I'm just a humble smart-ass). Too much to explain here, but happy to discuss if there is interest.

My problem is with freshwater plants. I've never had any success, but now I've got co2 for the first time, and still results are . . . meh. Unless there's a reason not to, I guess I'll give each plant their own plot of contained substrate and see what happens.



ValMM said:


> I would try planting in containers with gravel. Another idea is tying them to plastic mesh (like what's used for yarn crafts) with thread and then weighing that down with gravel.


Thanks. How do I weigh down the plastic yarn craft mesh with gravel (how is the gravel contained)?


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Now that you got the fish happy, the plants are next. Most plants do not need any kind of substrate to grow and prosper. I too have a number of bare-bottom planted tanks and your question comes up once in a while. A place to start is to measure the tank's kH, NO3, and PO4, as the plants need nutrients besides co2. Based on the values, you can set up a plant fertilizing schedule and dosing.

I posted this picture of one of my tanks just a couple of days ago in another thread: (https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/8-general-planted-tank-discussion/1282629-attaching_stem_plants_to_wood.html)


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## wastewater (Apr 5, 2010)

Interesting! If you get a chance and can post a pic, I'd enjoy seeing your current set-up.


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## psychofisho (Jul 21, 2018)

Wastewater here you go (and I like your name)
This is my first ever fish/tank pic. These guys won't position themselves properly for me. 

Mr. OVT - you've got my attention. An absolutely luscious underwater garden.
But I'm cautious at learning the sequence of spells to make the magic happen.
After my sps/clam reef days, and discuss grow-out days (way too OCD) I decided I didn't ever want to do water chemistry again. I fire-saled all of my Hannah and PinPoint monitors, and some fancy controller. I thought those days were done. I remember at one point, I was making calculations of molecules of strontium and calcium consumption for my giant clams, and thought, this was just too crazy. When the crying babies arrived, it was definitely gameover.
These pets all actually belong to my 13yo who asked for her birthday to have few goldfish, then she saw some nice discus, and wouldn't it be nice to have some plants. What's wrong daddy, can't you keep the plants green, like at the store? By the time I get this all figured out, she'll probably end up in a dorm, in another state. 
I can handle watching meth blue turn green in a glass thingie, but continually working the water for PO4/kH/NO3 with every water change - brings back nightmares of huge storage tanks for RO + Discus Essentials, an array of heaters.

But I'll get a kit, just to see where things are. I'm still committed to a low-chem philosophy, and if it turns out the regimen will require constant monitoring and additives, I'll need to bow out gracefully (disgracefully is okay too, I just need to keep a life going outside of fish/plant keeping). Thanks for sharing.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Congrats on doing what many say won't work. I often do things that are not the "standard" method but fit what I want. I do African cichlids and plants and lots say that won't work!! 
But that does give me a few ideas to pass along. First the idea of plants in pots does seem to work for me and should for you, but I'm not a discus or goldfish guy, so your decision? I put most any sub in pots and go with it when it feels right but there might also be other ways to get plants and avoid pots if you are not really wanting them. Is wood a thing to use? When I have fish who pull the normal planting, I go with holes in wood, plants and fasten the plant to the inside of the wood and then add a slate bottom to hold it all down. Same can be done with rocks like limestone that are easy to shape and drill as it gives you plenty of space to attach the plants where they attachment doesn't show. 
Considered going vertical by super gluing plants to decor? Java fern and mosses are a natural as well as anubia. A tiny amount of super glue as it shows garish white but it works really quick and easy on wet stuff to stick a few roots and then let it grow in to set firm. You may already have some things like pipes and filter in/out that would look lots better if they were covered with plants? 
The plants that don't use soil would seem to be a real starter but I might suggest first looking at some charts of deficiencies to spot some probable causes for the less than stellar plants?
https://www.google.com/search?q=aqu...hUE04MKHWesDrsQ9QEIZzAH#imgrc=Vn4aQwqnj0DI2M:


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

My breeder and grow out tanks are bare bottom (w/lots of floating plants only) but a planted display tank really needs a substrate to look 'n feel like a natural environment. I'm convinced that (coarse) sand works great, either pool filter sand or big box store play sand. Sand doesn't allow detritus to get down under like gravel and as long as it's not fine grain (that packs too tightly), sand is an excellent substrate for rooted plants. IMO, If it were a pond or stock tank, plants in pots would be fine....I just wouldn't like the look of it in an aquarium, especially if it's in a place of display....as it just looks wrong.


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## wastewater (Apr 5, 2010)

Very unique, indeed! Your fauna looks vibrant, happy & healthy. As you pointed out in an earlier post, a set-up like this isn't for the "faint of heart". Thanks for sharing.


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## rebelrebel (May 26, 2018)

Never seen a picture like that with a goldfish and discus together!

What temperature do you keep the tank at? Sometimes plants are affected by temperature.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

My 45 is bare bottom, with some leaf litter. I have epiphyte plants- anubias, windelov fern, buces, java fern- tied onto rocks and driftwood. I wanted to put some taller crypts in there also, so I planted them in some plastic trays with holes punched, substrate and a root tab. So far it's doing okay. I have the trays behind my larger piece of driftwood, which hides it somewhat.








If your plants aren't getting enough nutrient from the fish waste, try adding liquid or dry ferts? 

I have to say, I never would have pictured discus and goldfish in the same tank.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

I started in a similar fashion when our then 5 year old girl brought home a Comet in a cup.

There are many ways to reach a destination but a map helps. You can check your water district's annual water report to get some idea what your starting point is.

Looking at your pictures, I see what looks like non-aquatic plants and some that were grown emerged. You will also have to experiment with what plants your goldies will eat and which they will leave alone. Java Fern, anubias, and thick leaved crypts are a safe bet. I would then try swords (looks like you already have some), like Amazon, Melon, and Ozelot. You can leave them in the plastic baskets they come in and camouflage them with driftwood / rocks, as desired. I would also try cheap plants like Ambulia, broad-leaf Ludwidgias, Water Sprite, Hornwort, Brazilian Pennywort, Rotala rotundifolia, etc. etc. Some will live, some will get eaten but you will end up with a forest sooner or later. Overtime, you will be able to tell what their fertilizer needs are, if any, by their growth.


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## psychofisho (Jul 21, 2018)

Sorry - the pics are misleading. I've only got one live anubias there (see the roots) and one live Java fern in the upper corner sitting atop a plastic plant. All the rest are fake plants. I only wish my live plants looked as nice as my fake plants : )

Earlier in the week, I temporarily gave up and moved all the live plants and co2 over to the 20g quarantine tank, which has Eco Complete, to see if substrate would make a difference. And its easier and less stressful fooling around with a nearly fishless 20g than the fully stocked display tank. 

I had put in two squirts of Miracle Grow Indoor Plant Food, and running the co2 at med green. Don't yell at me; the tank has just snails and a male betta to keep the cycle going. I don't think M.G. has anything poisonous in it, its safe for edibles. 

Really hate testing water samples, and hesitating on buying a real test kit - nice kits are so expensive at $30+, and I hate testing water. 

I do have #s from the local water district

. Nitrate (as Nitrogen) 5.35

. Hardness (CaCO3) 210.5

. Potassium 2.84

I was using pressurized co2 with Flourish Excel, and Flourish Iron. It seems Flourish Excel is redundant with pressurized co2. Now I gotta do Flourish Nitrogen, Flourish Phosphorus, Flourish Potassium? Feels like I'm sps reefing again. My head hurts. 

I don't want to dose macro ferts and micro ferts all separately. 

What do you all think of Cory's Aquarium Co-op Easy Green All in One? 

Is there something better?

Did I mention I hate testing aquarium water?


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## Acro (Jul 7, 2012)

I kept goldfish for about 8 years and here are some of my best suggestions for growing plants with goldfish in a bare bottom tank.

Paint the bottom of the tank (from the outside) a nice blue or black. Then use one, or a mix of the listed growing methods:

1) Grow plants that attach to objects (like rocks, wood, aquarium ornaments). Here is a list I made a long time ago, I haven't updated it in a bit. The link is at the last update, but please read through from the first page if you want. https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/33-plants/723817-plants-root-onto-objects-3.html#post8337265

2) Grow potted plants. You can use glasses like you mentioned above, but glazed pots work just fine and I like how they have drainage holes at the bottom (helps with cleaning). Just be sure to use large heavy gravel at the top to prevent goldfish from digging through it.

3) Use floating plants. It's simple and can look good, but you won't be able to grow much under the water. However with some nice rocks or wood, it can look amazing.

4) Grow Riparium Plants. They stay above the water and prevent goldfish from uprooting them, eating them, and they get most all of their nutrients from fish poop. Also, no Co2 needed!

And remember, plant heavy! It spreads out the abuse and prevents goldfish from focusing on one or two plants to beat up or eat. And . . . all goldfish are different and some will eat all of one plant, but won't touch another, so experiment on what will do best with your fish and conditions. 

Good Luck!


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## psychofisho (Jul 21, 2018)

Thanks for suggestions Acro.

Will try the attachment and potted ideas. For potted, I might use some type of disposable clear plastic containers, the type from the deli or for salsa/guac. I can easily use a soldering iron blade and cut slots along the bottom for cleaning drainage. 

My goldfish do not bother the plants, so that's a good thing. No need to go heavily planted to absorb fish damage, fortunately. I've got 8, will-be-large fish in an itty bitty 50gal (actual water capacity is only 45g). Eventually, that's eight 5-6" discus and fat goldfish. I need to make more and more swim room as they grow - so I actually need to go from moderately planted, to lightly planted, for animal-tarian reasons.


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## Raith (Jun 27, 2014)

This is going to be an interesting build. I'm super excited to see it.


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## ValMM (Feb 22, 2011)

psychofisho said:


> Thanks. How do I weigh down the plastic yarn craft mesh with gravel (how is the gravel contained)?


This response is probably too late, but anyway... If you cut squares of mesh, you can tie them together into a cube with a side missing or a hole big enough to put the gravel in. You can tie your plants to the outside of the cube. You can use thread or yarn to do the tying.:smile2:


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## psychofisho (Jul 21, 2018)

Cubicle baskets filled with white pumice / matrix - ahh ha moment. 

No, not too late, I'm always trying to figure out a better way, and what you describe makes a lot of sense - thank you!

I'm kinda thinking small blueberry baskets filled with seachem matrix or gardening pumice (one of the forum threads confirms they are basically the same). Using natural looking biomedia as substrate in a basket, with the plants attached to the outside of each side of the basket - now that's thinking outside the basket!


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