# building a 1200L nature aquarium with wild Discus & jungle-nature feel



## *Ci* (Jun 16, 2016)

Do you have a basement? I hate humming noise as well so I moved my canister filter to a table in my basement directly underneath the tank and ran the hoses through the floor. Needless to say, it is utterly silent in the living room and actually easier to service down there as well (near my laundry sink). After some googling, the concensus seems to be that in a closed, pressurized system there is no headloss to the pump by placing it that much lower than the tank. I would have to do a search to find the links.

Well worth considering.


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Hello and welcome!

The actual construction of this tank will determine a lot as far as filtration is concerned. 317 gallons and 8 feet long translating it to imperial. I would first find someone willing to make it with experience doing so. This would be at least 25mm glass and maybe thicker which is HARD to find in the states, not sure about where you are. Even harder if you want low iron and in the state's at least VERY expensive to purchase. Most large tanks like this are made from acrylic or are rimmed. If made of acrylic the top of the tank will be braced with a piece of acrylic that covers the whole surface except for designated cut outs. If you can find someone making this tank as a rimless.. Well I'd be impressed, I don't know anyone in the states for example that can do it. 

The requirement for a silent system also is also determinative. You can't run enough canister filters in the same room as this tank without knowing they are there. You will need a minimum of 2 canister filters to move enough water in this tank. That means either 2 eheim 2262 or two fluval fx6. Both use 1 inch hoses I believe. I am not sure if they make glassware 1 inch in diameter? Never looked honestly. 

Honestly I think you are already in the area of sump. You can install a bean animal overflow and make a sump nearly silent in a system like this. BUT that means you will have an overflow in your tank or drilled through to the backside. At which point, do you really need a rimless tank?

Sounds like really cool project, I hope you go through with it and document it.


----------



## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Here are a few points for you to consider. This is going to be kind of rambling, but these are just some of my thoughts.




A rimless tank of this size is not only going to be hard to source, it will be incredibly expensive. If you do manage to get someone to make it, it will more than likely be acrylic, not low iron glass.
(1) For filtration, you can probably get away with 2x Fluval FX6. I have one on my 125G, and it is pretty damned quiet. There is a big different between quiet and silent, however. I’ll try to get a video later today showing it running and you can decide for yourself.
(2) If you go with an FX6, you’re going to run into difficulty getting glassware. I have yet to find any 1” Lily pipes, and was forced to have a local glassblower make them for me. Your other option would be to split the return hose from a 1” to (2) @ 16mm. There would be a bit of a reduction in flow, but not a substantial amount. The problem now, is that you would have 2 filters, so you would have a total of 4 inflows and 4 outflows in the tank.
Adding together points (1) & (2), my suggestion would be to drill the tank and plumb in a sump. You could plumb a Bean Animal overflow, which is very, very quiet. You would need to do some serious work designing the sump, but it is possible to have a completely silent sump.
Just to contradict myself, if you’re planning on using CO2, you’re going to have a difficult time with using a sump. Sumps tend to have quite a bit of surface exchange, and offgassing CO2 is a problem. I’ve read through several threads of people with sumps on huge tanks simply not being able to get their CO2 concentrations up to 30-40ppm, no matter what they do.
If you’re planning on Discus and Altum Angels, temperature is going to be an issue. You’re going to need to run several large heaters to keep a 300G, open top tank at 86-88 degrees F. You can still keep these out of the tank with a sump or canisters, however. With a sump, just put the heaters in there. With canisters, you would need to split the flow like in my point #2. From there, you can add an inline heaters on each of your return lines.


----------



## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Sounds like a great build. Dont think its a great idea to use an open top with discus, however. Anyone thats raised discus long enough becomes used to hearing them hit the top glass at least a couple times a week for various reasons.


----------



## Bruce Nelson (Dec 5, 2005)

aeneas said:


> Hi from a new member; I've had Discus / Amazon-themed aquariums for 30+ years (basically since childhood), mostly 200-400L low-tech.
> We recently moved to a new house and am now planning my dream aquarium build - a ~1.200L aquarium with a "wild" nature aquascape hopefully catching the atmosphere and concept of something close to Josh Sim's Congo. There will be many technical hurdles to overcome and figure out how to do this project and I look forward to learning and hopefully getting some good tips and guidance from experts here.
> 
> I have several initial construction concepts first I need figure out and your help would be greatly appreciated. Overall I would like to (a) keep aesthetics of as clean as possible with minimal intrusion of hoses and devices in the display area (using ADA glass accessories where needed etc.), and (b) design a system that is a quiet at possible - this will be in the main living/reception area so continuous humming sound of filter pump gets really annoying.
> ...


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

*Ci* said:


> Do you have a basement? I hate humming noise as well so I moved my canister filter to a table in my basement directly underneath the tank and ran the hoses through the floor.


I have a basement where I also have a central filtration and ion exchange station; it cleans and softens the water and is good to go as is so I don't need an R/O... behind the aquarium I have existing piping to add the softened water already pre-heated and also a drain pipe for outgoing dirty water. However, drilling more for adding filter lines would, unfortunately, not be possible.




minorhero said:


> This would be at least 25mm glass and maybe thicker which is HARD to find in the states, not sure about where you are. Even harder if you want low iron and in the state's at least VERY expensive to purchase.


I agree this will likely be expensive, but worth getting some quotes; it seems these guys managed to to an open tank with similar dimensions and if I understand correctly they used 19mm Opti-White glass:








will see if I can get some quotes for this...



minorhero said:


> The requirement for a silent system also is also determinative. You can't run enough canister filters in the same room as this tank without knowing they are there....
> ...Honestly I think you are already in the area of sump. You can install a bean animal overflow and make a sump nearly silent in a system like this. BUT that means you will have an overflow in your tank or drilled through to the backside. At which point, do you really need a rimless tank?
> Sounds like really cool project, I hope you go through with it and document it.


All fair points. Indeed probably will need 2x canisters. I am thinking of putting antivibration pads underneath and then using very good soundproofing insulation of the entire inside walls of the cabinet. That could work.
Yes, I am still looking into sumps, but it seems that takes construction design (and potential problems) to a whole new level. In addition, except for some cases where people reported really nearly-silent solutions, many people complain with all the trickling noises in various parts of the sump, making it much noisier than the best pumps.

Any experience with Oase Biomaster Thermo 850? It's smaller than Fluval FX6 but 2 units would probably work. It seems like it could be a quiet canister...



jellopuddinpop said:


> Here are a few points for you to consider. This is going to be kind of rambling, but these are just some of my thoughts.
> A rimless tank of this size is not only going to be hard to source, it will be incredibly expensive. If you do manage to get someone to make it, it will more than likely be acrylic, not low iron glass.
> 
> (1) For filtration, you can probably get away with 2x Fluval FX6. I have one on my 125G, and it is pretty damned quiet. There is a big different between quiet and silent, however. I’ll try to get a video later today showing it running and you can decide for yourself.
> ...


Would love to hear if you could make a recording of your FX6... ; your point of 4x in and 4x out has a point... 
Regarding sump, your two points both frustrate me as well; it could be a good solution, but would require a LOT of planning and construction design to really make it work well, while high-tech CO2 etc. is then not as effective... Also lots of people complain about tricking noises in the sump itself, nut just the overflow, which is well solved with the beananimal.

And temperature: we have quite warm house and I do not think keeping temperature will be that much of an issue... however temperature WILL be an issue for having really nice plant growth and also in the choice of plants themselves... very few are happy at higher temperatures... But this is a challenge I will work towards in the second phase of planning 



Discusluv said:


> Sounds like a great build. Dont think its a great idea to use an open top with discus, however. Anyone thats raised discus long enough becomes used to hearing them hit the top glass at least a couple times a week for various reasons.


You have a point here. Although I've had discus fish for 30+ years, I only once had a situation of high ammonia that discus started darting around and hitting the top glass. Normally that was never an issue. However I remember when I was a kid, and I left my top open one day and left for school, I returned home and there were 2 discus fish lying on the floor dead and dry. But that was looong time ago. In recent years I never saw any of my discus having any interest in stuff above surface...


----------



## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

aeneas said:


> I have a basement where I also have a central filtration and ion exchange station; it cleans and softens the water and is good to go as is so I don't need an R/O... behind the aquarium I have existing piping to add the softened water already pre-heated and also a drain pipe for outgoing dirty water. However, drilling more for adding filter lines would, unfortunately, not be possible.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is certainly unusual. Have you had breeding discus? Males who exhibited aggression toward one another?


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

Discusluv said:


> That is certainly unusual. Have you had breeding discus? Males who exhibited aggression toward one another?


I’ve had discus breed many times in many combinations of pairs. Even had some situations where there were clearly two alphas in the tank, but they decided ton”split” the space rather than fight over it. I had many situations where male would defend the area where female laid eggs and chase others away... but never jumping out of the water...


----------



## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

aeneas said:


> I’ve had discus breed many times in many combinations of pairs. Even had some situations where there were clearly two alphas in the tank, but they decided ton”split” the space rather than fight over it. I had many situations where male would defend the area where female laid eggs and chase others away... but never jumping out of the water...


Interesting...


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

aeneas said:


> Yes, I am still looking into sumps, but it seems that takes construction design (and potential problems) to a whole new level. In addition, except for some cases where people reported really nearly-silent solutions, many people complain with all the trickling noises in various parts of the sump, making it much noisier than the best pumps.
> 
> Any experience with Oase Biomaster Thermo 850? It's smaller than Fluval FX6 but 2 units would probably work. It seems like it could be a quiet canister...
> 
> ...


The Oase 850 has just 400 gallons per hour flow as it's advertised level. That doesn't take into account media or head pressure. It's actual flow amount is probably half the advertised level. In other words, you would need 4 of them to filter this tank at a minimum. A fluval fx6 has over 900 gallons per hour flow. So despite the 850 being priced and advertised as a fx6 competitor, it really is not.

Anyway making a sump silent is not hard. A bunch of matten filters shoved in there and you are done.

I'd be wary of building this tank out of 19 mm glass. Before you sign on the dotted line make sure the builder has made tanks this size before and those tanks are still around. Anyone can make a tank out inadequate materials that will hold for a week, a month, even a year. It takes a properly engineered tank to last a decade.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

I made some sketches of how the layout could look like; going from 335 gal max (97x25.5x31.5 in) which is wall-to-wall to 225 gal min (79x25.5x25.5 in) which leaves some space on either side and is lower in height. Currently, playing with design, the best looking to me might be 97x25.5x27.5 in wall-to-wall but slightly lower height, giving me ~293 gal.

















Honestly, I do like the idea of a sump and it would allow me lots of additional flexibility - like having automated water changes with a solenoid valve letting ~50L water into the drain each night and then refilling back to the floater level; also automatically dosing nutrients and chemicals would be much easier... I have been reading about the bean animal overflow etc. but it seems waay to complicated to me for designing and all the engineering details that would need to go along. I understand overflow could be made quiet and there are some external pumps that can also be supposedly extremely quiet, but many people seem to complain about all the trickling of the water in the sump etc. If it is not done perfectly, it will be a lot of time and money wasted and my wife will not be too happy with it 
Also I worry about power failures; we live in a new neighbourhood where there is continuous construction going on so there are frequent (i.e. once every 2-3 months) power cuts. But would be happy to consider it further if you guys help me out with thinking this through.


----------



## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Well, if you want to go the sump route, then you're pretty much shoehorned into a bean animal or herbie style overflow if you want it to be silent. If you don't, you're going to hear the water overflow. On the sump end, you can put the outlet pipes way below the waterline in the sump to prevent any noise. 

If you go with the bean animal design, the third pipe (that's dry by design) will be way above the water line. This one would only carry water if the first two have failed, and the splashing noise is your alarm.


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

aeneas said:


> I made some sketches of how the layout could look like; going from 335 gal max (97x25.5x31.5 in) which is wall-to-wall to 225 gal min (79x25.5x25.5 in) which leaves some space on either side and is lower in height. Currently, playing with design, the best looking to me might be 97x25.5x27.5 in wall-to-wall but slightly lower height, giving me ~293 gal.
> View attachment 1026193
> 
> View attachment 1026194
> ...


Reducing the size of the tank will definitely help make it easier to construct. Let us know when you find a builder you like and how much it will cost, I'm definitely curious what prices are like overseas.

Sumps make noise either when the water enters the pipes from the overflow or when they go through a filter sock and drip into the main sump area, or in the sump when the water goes over baffles and splashes down into the next section. The overflow issue is resolved through use of a bean animal. Any decent tank maker can certainly incorporate a bean animal overflow into the construction of the tank. Or you can buy a premade overflow that attaches to the outside of the tank through drilled holes. To eliminate noise in the sump you simply have your lines entering the sump be below water level, thus no dripping noises. You could incorporate filter socks below water level if you wish or simple not use them which would be my preference. Once the water is in the sump you simply don't use baffles. The water stays at the same level the entire time. Instead you have 2 or 3 matten filters/foam walls of various densities (course to fine). There is a pretty gigantic planted tank that george farmer from youtube helped scape and this is the filter system they use for that tank (though clearly scaled up to the 10th degree).






Skip to 17:20 to see the filter system. Its just a bunch of matten filters (way more then you would need) and the water passes through them, In order to clean one they just pull one out and leave the others in place. Pretty nifty setup.

You size the sump so that if the power goes out the water will drain from the main tank into the sump till it gets below the level of the overflow. The sump is big enough so that it can absorb this extra water. Once the power comes back the sump pump turns on again and begins to refill the main tank until the water level reaches the overflow again. A bean animal overflow will restart automatically after a power outage. Its thus as safe as can be. If your return line is above the water level then you don't need any special precaution, if its below the water line then put a check valve in as safety to stop reverse siphon. You can also incorporate an air hole above water line in a return to break siphon depending on design. All of these issues have been worked out before by people much smarter then me frankly since what you want (a safe silent sump) is a pretty common requirement.

Regarding co2, there are plenty of folks on this forum using co2 with a sump and they don't have issues. You will certainly use a LOT more CO2 in a 300 gallon tank then say someone with a smaller tank, but that is to be expected. You will definitely want a reactor for co2 (assuming you are planning to use co2 that is), as opposed to a diffuser. A reactor can definitely be incorporated in the sump as well.


----------



## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

@aeneas, care to show yourself? Coming here for designing ideas of a large planted tank but not an ordinary hobbyist, I don't feel comfortable sharing my own design...


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

Bettatail said:


> @aeneas, care to show yourself? Coming here for designing ideas of a large planted tank but not an ordinary hobbyist, I don't feel comfortable sharing my own design...


Hi @Bettatail - I hear your concerns. Not sure how I would "show" myself, but I understand the reluctance to share thoughts with an unknown new member. As I wrote, I've had aquariums most of my life, mostly discus fish etc. But never anything serious to write or brag about. It was a "living picture" - a small space of zen that I always had somewhere in my home. Never did any particular aquascaping project... basic aquarium with some wood, rocks and various plants - anubias, cryptocoryne, valisnerias, etc. (stuff that holds well higher temperatures for discuss aquariums).

Since I can remember, however, I was dreaming that once we finally settle down in our new house, I will construct an ultimate nature aquarium... a proper "Takashi Amano" inspired discus tank (I have all Amano's books as well as Bleher's discus tomes etc.). I still don't have too much free time (hence my worry whether I dare to think about sump construction) but do have the means to pull this off.

Since this is a really really big endeavour, I do not want to do it blindly, but want to take time to study, check all my options and consult with expert hobbyists. Learn from others as much as I can in order to avoid making too many mistakes. There will be mistakes, for sure. But with such builds, drilling holes and multi-tonne weights, many decisions are a one-way ticket and are irreversible. This is why I decided to come out of "reading only" mode and get involved 

In terms of showing oneself - if you guys ever hold zoom/teams (or other VC) chats, I'd happily join. I am against posting personally identifiable photos though. Just keeping the internet presence clean. I will gladly share my aquarium build journal and post photos that have no people or kids in it


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

aeneas said:


> 1) Dimensions of the tank: 240cm width (covering the wall connecting dining area with the main reception area / living room; with this width, I am considering 65cm depth and 80cm height to give reasonable dimension proportions, but could also do 240x65x70 if lower walls would be easier to fill with scape and avoid too much empty space at the top...?
> 2) Rimless open top: for such a huge tank & water pressure, I don't know if glass would hold rimless open top design? Any ideas how to calculate?


From the glass calculator you would need 24mm glass for sides, 27mm for the bottom w/ a safety factor of 3.8 (standard).
Lower the depth the less glass thickness

@ 2400x 650 deep x 650 (or 800, doesn't change it.) mm glass only needs to be 15 and 20mm
700.... 16 x 22 bottom

Depth is the critical factor really..
Did you consider eurobracing?
Oh standard glass. Prob increase for low iron, decrease for tempered.

Weight calc..





Glass Weight Technical Data for creation of glazing specifications in Optimumcut 1D v3







www.optimumcut.com





Roughly bottom piece alone weighs 230-250-ish lbs (more for 27mm glass, 1" glass =25.4mm )..depending on chosen thickness.
DRY..about 1/2 ton.
Add a ton 1/2 for water.

235lbs/sq.ft.
ROUGH estimates.. best to consult builders.

Sort of confirmation (remeber depth matters):


> I have looked at alot of tank manufactures and have decided on 2 tanks that are within my price budget.
> 
> 
> 1. Marineland 300 with corner overflows. Glass is 1/2 in sides and 3/4 in the bottom.
> ...








What does a 300 Gal glass tank weigh? - Reef Central Online Community Archives


What does a 300 Gal glass tank weigh? Large Reef Tanks



archive.reefcentral.com


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

jeffkrol said:


> From the glass calculator you would need 24mm glass for sides, 27mm for the bottom w/ a safety factor of 3.8 (standard).
> Lower the depth the less glass thickness
> 
> @ 2400x 650 deep x 650 (or 800, doesn't change it.) mm glass only needs to be 15 and 20mm
> ...


This is very useful info @jeffkrol , thank you! This really makes every cm of depth important then - maybe wall-to-wall wide but not that deep is the way to go (e.g. 65cm or max 70cm, but certainly not 80cm).

I've never heard of eurobracing until now. I looked it up and get the point of reinforcement, but at the cost of aesthetics. Will read some more, but probably we'll not go with this approach... Thanks for bringing it up though. I will certainly do some reading.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

My wife is voting for canister filters - she says sump is too messy. I am thinking that with 2x Oase 850 Thermo (with added heater benefit) should be able to handle ~290 gal tank if properly heavily planted and with plants doing a big job in the ecosystem... if not, maybe 2x Fulvals... 
But: with canister filters installed, I was thinking how to automate water top-up as well as do a ~50L water exchange per day. Here is a sketch that I'm playing with: one of the canisters will be linked to two separate solenoid-valve controlled hoses; first one will be timer-controlled and will open just enough to let 50L drain out once per day (e.g. during the night); the other solenoid is controlled by a water level detector in the aquarium - such as Hydor, which turns it on whenever water drops below the required level and then tops up with fresh pretreated water back to required level. This then takes care then of both the evaporation as well as when the other solenoid drains 50L per day.
Tell me what you think of the idea?


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

aeneas said:


> My wife is voting for canister filters - she says sump is too messy. I am thinking that with 2x Oase 850 Thermo (with added heater benefit) should be able to handle ~290 gal tank if properly heavily planted and with plants doing a big job in the ecosystem... if not, maybe 2x Fulvals...
> But: with canister filters installed, I was thinking how to automate water top-up as well as do a ~50L water exchange per day. Here is a sketch that I'm playing with: one of the canisters will be linked to two separate solenoid-valve controlled hoses; first one will be timer-controlled and will open just enough to let 50L drain out once per day (e.g. during the night); the other solenoid is controlled by a water level detector in the aquarium - such as Hydor, which turns it on whenever water drops below the required level and then tops up with fresh pretreated water back to required level. This then takes care then of both the evaporation as well as when the other solenoid drains 50L per day.
> Tell me what you think of the idea?
> 
> ...


It would be really nice to be able to use the 850 thermo and call it a day. BUT keep in mind the 850 thermo is hugely underpowered. It simply will not be able to move water from one side of the tank to the other. Does that mean you can't use it? No, you could totally use it. But you would really want a few powerheads in the tank to keep water circulating as well. Since you mention that you want to keep in tank equipment to a minimum I don't think this is the route you want to go. Remember you want 4 to 8 times actual turn over (some folks prefer 10 times) in the tank in order to keep all the water circulating with just the filter doing the job. The 850 is rated at 400 gallons per hour without any media in the filter, and no head pressure. Add media, add head pressure, add regular accumulation of gunk and you are probably looking at half the actual gallons per hour. So each 850 is going to actually be circulating 200 gallons per hour. So if you have 2 of them that's 400 gallons per hour actual circulation. Or 1.3 times turnover per hour. So you would need four Oase 850 filters before you hit the minimum to keep all the water circulating well in this tank. That means even more lily pipes.

And unfortunately if using Euro Bracing you really can't use lily pipes unless they are some very very custom made versions. Or you need a drilled euro brace. I've never seen that but I imagine someone has done it I suppose. Not sure if its still as effective once you go and drill holes in it though /shrug.

Anyway if you don't believe me about the turnover requirements and the 850, here is another George Farmer video of his discus tank setup:






At 7:45 on the video he shows his filters. He has an 850 and a 250 working together on this tank. This is a 100 gallon tank. Also keep in mind that George Farmer is actually sponsored by Oase. The tank was given to him by Oase as were the filters. He does promos for them all the time and even he won't stick just an 850 on his tank and call it a day.

You could definitely do 2 fluval fx6 filters or 4 oase 850 filters. BUT also keep in mind that when it comes to lily pipes you will need either two sets of custom 25mm pipes, or 4 sets of the 16/17mm pipes, or use the stock pipes that come with either canister filter.

In short there is a reason you see a lot of people using sumps on big tanks /shrug

Can you do it with one set of pipes? YES definitely, but you will want some powerheads in the tank to move the water around so you don't get stagnant spots. This is a HUGE tank and has special considerations as such.

For the auto water change system, it would probably be a lot better to put everything on a timer rather then have it fill whenever a sensor gets alerted. That way you could stop your filter at the same time and thus allow the water to flow out or into the tank without fighting the flow of the filter. I am just guessing on this, I've never tried to do what you are doing here but that would be how I would do it.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

minorhero said:


> ...
> For the auto water change system, it would probably be a lot better to put everything on a timer rather then have it fill whenever a sensor gets alerted. That way you could stop your filter at the same time and thus allow the water to flow out or into the tank without fighting the flow of the filter. I am just guessing on this, I've never tried to do what you are doing here but that would be how I would do it.


I hear your point @minorhero regarding required power/flow of canister filters. I will need to think this further, but all this input is very very helpful! 

Regarding the sump/canister, I see your point regarding lily pipes (I would not use Euro bracing); but the alternative of a sump, as far as I understand, one needs to install an overflow system such as bean animal, which requires a not-so-pretty-looking box at the back of the aquarium... that one also, in my opinion, significantly impacts the aesthetics. Is there any alternative way of making the sump without the need for such an overflow box?

Regarding the water change - if sump, then it will be easy. If canister I am thinking my sketch should probably work; keeping filter "on" is a must, because when solenoid valve opens on timer, the hose is thinner than the return hose from the filter; 80% water will still continue back to tank and 20% water will go towards the drain/sewage (rough figures). The filter will push the water through this drain hose so it will help. The topping-up is connected higher up, so I'm not loosing clean water; this one comes under pressure already but then is further assisted by the flow of the canister, which pulls the fresh water along; the solenoid valve should be controlled automatically by water level because this way it will be able to continuously top up also to fight evaporation, which will probably be considerable with such a large open top tank. I will need to test the design and manually meter out the timer-vs-volume drained to set appropriate daily timer but I think this should work. Again: only in case of canister filter. If going via sump route, the solution is much easier.


----------



## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

I have a 100 gallon with a sump and a 120 with 2 canisters. When I got the 120 money was a bit tight and I already had one large canister so I decided to be cheap and go that route instead. I do regret my decision. For any future large tanks I get I'll be going the sump route.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

Triport said:


> I have a 100 gallon with a sump and a 120 with 2 canisters. When I got the 120 money was a bit tight and I already had one large canister so I decided to be cheap and go that route instead. I do regret my decision. For any future large tanks I get I'll be going the sump route.


I've read your 120 gal aquarium thread - wonderful aquarium, phenomenal photos; I subscribed to follow... you don't say anything there that you felt canisters were the wrong choice, though. Do you mind sharing your regrets? I have a 100gal low-tech discus tank with basic plants at the moment and it is completely fine with one Eheim Professionel 3 XL canister... I never had any water problems. What are in your experiences the cons that you are now having with the canisters? Servicing/cleaning the filters or water quality? Noise? What is the noise with your sump?
Do share more, please


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

aeneas said:


> I hear your point @minorhero regarding required power/flow of canister filters. I will need to think this further, but all this input is very very helpful!
> 
> Regarding the sump/canister, I see your point regarding lily pipes (I would not use Euro bracing); but the alternative of a sump, as far as I understand, one needs to install an overflow system such as bean animal, which requires a not-so-pretty-looking box at the back of the aquarium... that one also, in my opinion, significantly impacts the aesthetics. Is there any alternative way of making the sump without the need for such an overflow box?
> 
> Regarding the water change - if sump, then it will be easy. If canister I am thinking my sketch should probably work; keeping filter "on" is a must, because when solenoid valve opens on timer, the hose is thinner than the return hose from the filter; 80% water will still continue back to tank and 20% water will go towards the drain/sewage (rough figures). The filter will push the water through this drain hose so it will help. The topping-up is connected higher up, so I'm not loosing clean water; this one comes under pressure already but then is further assisted by the flow of the canister, which pulls the fresh water along; the solenoid valve should be controlled automatically by water level because this way it will be able to continuously top up also to fight evaporation, which will probably be considerable with such a large open top tank. I will need to test the design and manually meter out the timer-vs-volume drained to set appropriate daily timer but I think this should work. Again: only in case of canister filter. If going via sump route, the solution is much easier.


There is technically a third option that uses canister filters but not lily pipes. It is rarely used but you can drill a tank wherever you want, and then instead of connecting the bulkhead to a sump, you connect it to a canister filter instead. You would want to install a ball valve at the same time so you don't need to drain your tank to service things. This method has a LOT of disadvantages chief among them, you have a drilled tank whose holes will be (unless you put them way up high in the correct spot) incompatible with a sump down the line which will mean plugging them and drilling new holes should you decide to go with a sump at some future date. The advantage is that you can put them somewhere that will be hidden by plants/hardscape so you can't see them from the front. Of course another disadvantage is that it will dramatically limit your aquascape options as well. 

The reality is that the hobby does not well support very large sized tanks. ADA and UNS both make a 150 gallon tank 180cm long and that's really it for out of the box solutions. Even those tanks typically require multiple filters to work. 

Anyway regarding the filter being on to drain the tank, I think you would find the siphon effect more then sufficient to drain the tank. I have sadly learned all about siphons being VERY active when I have disconnected lines to my canister filter without removing the lily pipe from the tank. But /shrug I'm sure it will drain just fine with the filter running as well. If you wanted to put things on a timer you simply set things to run every day before you go to bed. Drain it 10% and refill etc. This has the advantage of getting it done while you are still around so if/when something breaks (because everything breaks eventually) you will be there to fix it and not wake up to the sound of water spilling onto the floor etc. Evaporation will not be so much from a single day that it will be noticeable in a tank this big, certainly less than 1 cm. 

Of course without a sump you will definitely need a sensor inside the tank to determine refill height.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

guys, I've been trying to look more deeply into the sump option. Technically I get it - would allow for much flexibility and my needs. But as far as aesthetics, I was not able to find anything that would be really pleasing to my eyes... I like the "bean animal" concept of a quiet overflow, but most of what i was able to find were really big overflow boxes on the inside of the aquarium, taking lots of space and not looking pretty and all the ready-made are, for some strange reason, made with black acrylic instead of transparent. 
Can anyone point me to a thread / build or a link that would show some nice well designed overflow that is not only functional but also minimalistic and clean-looking (in an ADA sense... clean glass, minimal intrusion into the aquarium etc.)? I'd really appreciate some pointers... I've spent hours googling but I can't find anything that I like in terms of aesthetics...


----------



## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

You can design your overflow wherever you want it. How are you planning on orienting it in the room? Are you going to have the long side against the wall, or treat it more like a room divider, with a short side on the wall?


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

The tank that comes to mind is the Amano private residence tank.

There are lots of videos of people giving tours of the tank. Here is one showing how it was made.






Not exactly rimless but you get the idea.

Anyway if I were to build this tank I would choose one of the short side walls and designate it the sump side. I would build a nice hardwood box to cover the overflow which would be external to the tank, and then put in a big door in my hardwood box to allow for easy access. When looking at the tank you would still get that unobstructed view when looking front to back, but all equipment would be hidden. And all you would see from the outside is a nice wooden wall along one side of the tank. Any tank maker worth talking to can build or install an overflow for you and out of any color of acrylic you want. Most prefer black because of algae.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

jellopuddinpop said:


> You can design your overflow wherever you want it. How are you planning on orienting it in the room? Are you going to have the long side against the wall, or treat it more like a room divider, with a short side on the wall?


I posted in post #“1 in this thread some sketches of the aquarium position. So with the restriction of the glass sliding door on the left side I would need to position the overflow box to the right of the aquarium - something like this:








Or, I could position the overflow somewhere at the back and INSIDE the aquarium so that I have no external piping and everything goes straight through the drilled holes at the bottom of the tank into the sump. This would be even cleaner from the outside perspective, but I would probably need to then mask it in black to hide the pipes and that would probably require me to paint black the entire backside... which I do not find that attractive. it makes the atmosphere of the scape even darker... any thoughts on that?













minorhero said:


> The tank that comes to mind is the Amano private residence tank.
> There are lots of videos of people giving tours of the tank. Here is one showing how it was made.
> Not exactly rimless but you get the idea.
> Anyway if I were to build this tank I would choose one of the short side walls and designate it the sump side. I would build a nice hardwood box to cover the overflow which would be external to the tank, and then put in a big door in my hardwood box to allow for easy access. When looking at the tank you would still get that unobstructed view when looking front to back, but all equipment would be hidden. And all you would see from the outside is a nice wooden wall along one side of the tank. Any tank maker worth talking to can build or install an overflow for you and out of any color of acrylic you want. Most prefer black because of algae.


This tank is a huge inspiration indeed! My wife also wants us to make some of the roots and plants grow out of the water - hence open top / rimless 
I get the point of hiding to the right side in a box, but if you look at the position of my aquarium it is set against the wall and left and right are open spaces... to the right is the dining area and to the left is the reception area - front looks into the living room. So I really need to be mindful that the aquarium is clean and visible from all three sides. I can only play at the back or drill holes through the bottom.

If I do an overflow like this - how would I calculate the right size of the overflow on the INSIDE of the aquarium? On the outside it would be bean animal box which I found lots of good instruction sketches... how would I calculate the necessary sizing on the inside? Width, height and depth? I would then drill holes through the back wall of the aquarium to the outside bean animal box.
Sizing requirements would probably be the same in case I make the entire overflow on the INSIDE with piping drilled through the bottom of the tank, right? 
...I just can't figure out the right way to do this aesthetically...


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

aeneas said:


> I posted in post #“1 in this thread some sketches of the aquarium position. So with the restriction of the glass sliding door on the left side I would need to position the overflow box to the right of the aquarium - something like this:
> View attachment 1026333
> 
> Or, I could position the overflow somewhere at the back and INSIDE the aquarium so that I have no external piping and everything goes straight through the drilled holes at the bottom of the tank into the sump. This would be even cleaner from the outside perspective, but I would probably need to then mask it in black to hide the pipes and that would probably require me to paint black the entire backside... which I do not find that attractive. it makes the atmosphere of the scape even darker... any thoughts on that?
> ...


If you want/need the backwall to be the location of the overflow then sad to say its not going to give you that clean aesthetic you want. If it were me and I was planning for that type of situation I would just go ahead and install, create, buy a background. Either the 'cheap' way of installing window film to black out the back with a color of my choice, or the more expensive way of having a custom 3d background made specific to this tank and overflow. As for size of overflow. The bigger the overflow the better the flow, BUT you can get away with a relatively small one. After all you were planning for lily pipes and think how small those are.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

minorhero said:


> If you want/need the backwall to be the location of the overflow then sad to say its not going to give you that clean aesthetic you want. If it were me and I was planning for that type of situation I would just go ahead and install, create, buy a background. Either the 'cheap' way of installing window film to black out the back with a color of my choice, or the more expensive way of having a custom 3d background made specific to this tank and overflow. As for size of overflow. The bigger the overflow the better the flow, BUT you can get away with a relatively small one. After all you were planning for lily pipes and think how small those are.


Could also hide much of the background with the scape. Looking at the Congo and many variants thereof, most of the background is hidden behind roots and plants anyway.

I've been looking at the ready-made overflows and it seems there are several decent options; Eshopss Eclipse L would probably be too small for a 1100L / 290 gal tank. Possibly the Synergy Reef Ghost 20" overflow would be best in size or the Modular Marine 3000gph one also looks very sleek. Any experience or thoughts on any of those?


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

Just further thoughts around the overflow boxes:

Exotic Marine Systems: has horizontal instead of vertical slots in the inner box: good or bad? Looks the only system that does horizontal...
Eshopss Eclipse L: probably too small for 290gal tank?
Synergy Reef Ghost 20": some review say poor / cheap quality?
Modular Marine 3000gph: seems interesting, but it looks like not available at the moment...?
Fiji Cube 2400gph: also looks very sleek...

Any thoughts on one vs the other?


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

aeneas said:


> Can anyone point me to a thread / build or a link that would show some nice well designed overflow that is not only functional but also minimalistic and clean-looking (in an ADA sense... clean glass, minimal intrusion into the aquarium etc.)? I'd really appreciate some pointers... I've spent hours googling but I can't find anything that I like in terms of aesthetics...


Here's my now gone Mbuna tank.










75 gallon tank with a standard interior overflow. This was hidden with a artificial wall. You can see the two sump return in the upper left and right. The intakes to the rear area, and hence into the overflow box then down below, are hidden in the rear wall.

The sump was a used, heavily modified 9 gallon sump sitting inside a 30 gallon tank. All the equipment was down below. I used a Herbie style overflow and it was 100% silent.





 for the sump details.

I'm running a 75 gallon planted now and I sort of wish I went with a sump. Once we retire and move into our "forever" home we'll likely build a 250-300 gallon tank with a basement sump.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

Sorry guys to keep going at this - but after lots more reading (and confusion) I am down to: 

(a) *Modular Marine*: really nice design, internal and external overflow boxes at equal levels, seems to have good review (except for a few individual cases); has vertical slits i the weir - good or bad?

(b) *Exotic Marine System*: very very similar to Modular Marine, also internal and external units at equal levels, but has horizontal slits in the weir... they claim that this gives them much more surface area to skim and much less trickling water noise that one gets with vertical slits. They also say less impact for algae growth in the slits, reducing the flow further. I worry that these may be dangerous for some fish being sucked in, although other than cardinal tetras I have no other small fish in the tank and I have never seen those swim so close to the surface.

Any thoughts on the *vertical* vs *horizontal* slits?


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Regardless of whether you have horizontal or vertical slits, any fish that can fit in that overflow will find its way there. They will go for a ride and end up in your sump. Then you get the joy of netting them out ;P

Anyway most people put some sponge or other commercial guard in their overflow to prevent this behavior. I'd highly highly highly suggest asking whatever tank builder you settle on for their opinion on the creation/purchase of an overflow as they will definitely have an opinion as to what they use and have had success with before.


----------



## pablos (Aug 22, 2020)

minorhero said:


> Regardless of whether you have horizontal or vertical slits, any fish that can fit in that overflow will find its way there. They will go for a ride and end up in your sump. Then you get the joy of netting them out ;P
> 
> Anyway most people put some sponge or other commercial guard in their overflow to prevent this behavior.


exactly .. I have added a stainless mesh to protect it ... anyway i use to find shrimps in socks whenever I clean them.


----------



## pablos (Aug 22, 2020)

aeneas said:


> my wife also wants us to make some of the roots and plants grow out of the water - hence open top / rimless


rimless Is fine, but open won’t work ... unless you want to find some of your discus at the floor. Mine managed to escape as there was just 2.5cm gap between lids.

cover your tank!


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

pablos said:


> exactly .. I have added a stainless mesh to protect it ... anyway i use to find shrimps in socks whenever I clean them.


That's a good idea - I could probably attach a thin layer of stainless mesh on the inside of the overflow box - so it is not visible from the outside, but blocks creatures from being sucked through... thanks!



pablos said:


> rimless Is fine, but open won’t work ... unless you want to find some of your discus at the floor. Mine managed to escape as there was just 2.5cm gap between lids.
> cover your tank!


Thanks for the warning... I don't know... many people seem to have jumping discus. But I've had discus fish for ~30 years and except for one occasion in the past when they darted across the aquarium and jumped (and hit the head into the cover, which is what I have now) I've never had such a situation... back then, I know what happened - it was an ammonia crisis which caused the fish to go crazy.
What I'm thinking is to cover the tank with a net for the first couple of months after the new fish are in the new tank to get used to the environment and get "ownership" of their small pockets of space... after that I think it will be safe to remain open top. I've seen many discus aquarium with open top and with some exceptions most said they did not have issues with jumpers. I guess I'll have to try.


----------



## pablos (Aug 22, 2020)

Open top creates also another issue - evaporation. I have just sump open with 0.5m2 of surface and it ‘leaks’ around 6l per day, even if I have around 60% humidity in that room. Maybe some attached monstera are plants take a credit of missing water, but still it’s quite much.

In your case evaporator surface would be few times bigger.

Regarding jumpers ... I think if you go with euro braces in your tank, your discus would have less chances to jump out of the tank. Actually euro braces is only one reasonable way for your planned 2m long tank. For my 1.7m long tank I when for few transverse braces ... and it was not a good idea.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

pablos said:


> Open top creates also another issue - evaporation. I have just sump open with 0.5m2 of surface and it ‘leaks’ around 6l per day, even if I have around 60% humidity in that room. Maybe some attached monstera are plants take a credit of missing water, but still it’s quite much.
> In your case evaporator surface would be few times bigger.
> Regarding jumpers ... I think if you go with euro braces in your tank, your discus would have less chances to jump out of the tank. Actually euro braces is only one reasonable way for your planned 2m long tank. For my 1.7m long tank I when for few transverse braces ... and it was not a good idea.


For the evaporation I intend to have automatic water exchange and top-up in the sump; it was actually my intention to replace ~50L water each night and the refill would be automatic...

For the euro bracing - this is a good idea and several have suggested I should do this. I agree it would be most sensible thing to do - I just to not like the looks; much prefer the clean view of rimless open top. Will need to sleep on it a bit more... What makes you say your transverse braces were "not" a good idea for your 1.7m tank? What went wrong?


----------



## pablos (Aug 22, 2020)

Initially there were three than upgraded to four braces (20cm each), regardless of numbers they didn't hold it properly. It was second time they glue out and tank start to bowing when I have ordered stainless steel frame. after that I started sleep way better 









top frame is painted on white and I really like its look. I think it looks even better than rimless.

without a frame









with a frame


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

pablos said:


> Initially there were three than upgraded to four braces (20cm each), regardless of numbers they didn't hold it properly. It was second time they glue out and tank start to bowing when I have ordered stainless steel frame. after that I started sleep way better


Nice looking discuss you've got there! 
What is the height of the tank, if I may ask? The height impacts the pressure the most - I initially planned for 80cm (31") but they told me that would require waaay to thick glass if I wanted rim less and open top. So now we're considering to lower the height to ~65cm (25")...

BTW, how does that K1 media work for you? Do you have any extra aeration for it or how do you make it tumble? Any added noise there?


----------



## pablos (Aug 22, 2020)

Discus (Stendker) are still young so they dont show their full colors and potentials yet ... give them some time 

The tank is 70cm high. It could not be more, as I won’t be able to do a maintenance. I think 65 is very reasonable.

Regarding K1 ... initially I had a problem to start rotating them, but after installing big doubled powerhead they finally rotate. On top of it I’m pumping 700l/h of oxygen so neither K1 nor fish can complain about lack of air.

Overall I find K1 very good, you don’t need to clean it and it’s super efficient. I’m feeding my discus 3 times per day with beef heart mix and believe or not, but my NO3 are always on 0-5ppm. I’m starting to dosing KNO3 to feed plants.

tank is in the leaving room and if it would be too noisy my wife force me to move it.K1 media is not on the top of the noisiest elements:

5- water flow, waives on surface .. but actually it’s relaxing 
3- air pump 
2 - water pump
1 - rotating media


----------



## stlhokie (Aug 21, 2018)

Another thing that will absolutely be essential for this build is for you to verify that the floor where you are building this tank is capable of withstanding the weight of the tank. Are you building this in a house?

300 gallons of water is roughly 2500 pounds, plus your hardscape materials and any potential sump you are building, which could add another 500 pounds. Over a 97in x 26 in footprint, you are looking at a floor load of around 180 pounds per square foot. Most residential construction is not rated for those type of loads on elevated floors. In the US, most residential construction is designed to carry just 40 pounds per square foot. Although I don't generally practice outside the US, I can tell you that other country standards are very similar in nature.

If you are building this on a foundation slab, it is not an issue, but as a structural engineer who designs buildings for a living, any other situation and I would be extremely concerned with existing flooring being able to support the weight of this tank. The fact that you mentioned that you have a basement in an earlier comment leads me to believe that you aren't building it on the foundation slab, and if you plan on going through with this, you absolutely need to have a structural engineer come out and look at your flooring system and verify (with calculations) that your floor will be able to handle this.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

stlhokie said:


> Another thing that will absolutely be essential for this build is for you to verify that the floor where you are building this tank is capable of withstanding the weight of the tank. Are you building this in a house?
> ...The fact that you mentioned that you have a basement in an earlier comment leads me to believe that you aren't building it on the foundation slab, and if you plan on going through with this, you absolutely need to have a structural engineer come out and look at your flooring system and verify (with calculations) that your floor will be able to handle this.


I do have a basement but the basement is made from reinforced concrete. I've spoken to the person who did statics for our house and the ground floor concrete should more than easily handle this weight.
Thanks for consideration though - much appreciate all concerns and positive thoughts!


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

Guys, next "challenge" in consideration of the set-up: assuming this will be an EMS or MM style 30-32" overflow box with a sump system in the cabinet below and a quiet return pipe, such as Red Dragon 3 mini... for a 96" long aquarium - how should I handle the return pipes? I was always hoping for the beautiful ADA glass lily pipes. But I wonder if this is possible in such setup. What would you recommend to make the water flow well throughout the entire length?


----------



## stlhokie (Aug 21, 2018)

aeneas said:


> I do have a basement but the basement is made from reinforced concrete. I've spoken to the person who did statics for our house and the ground floor concrete should more than easily handle this weight.
> Thanks for consideration though - much appreciate all concerns and positive thoughts!


Are you building this in the basement? From what it sounded like you weren't going to build it there, but rather the living room above. Most residential construction is not designed by an engineer. If you are building it one a floor above the basement, that is still a huge concern. Yes, the basement floornmay be capable of carrying the weight, but the floor above the basement you are building it on may not be able to carry it.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

@stlhokie : build is on ground floor on reinforced concrete - checked the house statics... all OK, nothing to worry

Next phase of planning: I have done much reading now regarding sump setups... Please help with some of the dilemas below. Main aim: good performance and as silent as possible operation.
I am currently thinking of three possible designs - see the images below; one has 3 major chambers, one has 5 and one has 4 chambers with K1 media included. I also have no idea how to calculate the appropriate height of the baffles separating each chamber. Is there some recommended calculation?









*Option 1:*

does the layout make sense?
Any suggestion regarding the mechanical filtration in the 1st chamber?
I noticed some people add glass strips on top of the baffle at an angle (see the small red coloured line on top of the baffle) which might make the water flow nicer and make less trickling sound. Does this make sense or is it unnecessary?
how should I calculate the necessary height of the baffles?
in 3rd chamber, are there any ideas of some additional coarse material I should use there - especially to prevent water trickling from the top of the baffle?









*Option 2:*

this one has maybe even more "organized" flow... does it make sense? I think I like it even more than the 1st option
any suggestion on the mechanical filtration in 1st chamber?
chamber no. 2: should I continue with some more mechanical or should I add bio?
same as Option 1: do these angularly placed glass strips (between chambers 2 and 3) make any sense in terms of quieting the trickling of the water flow?









*Option 3: *

maybe best option??
lots of people praise K1 media... I just do not want to add aeration pumps... this would make more noise and also lead to more loss of CO2. I could replace this with a couple of wavemakers instead? If yes, does this chamber make sense? What should be the height of the baffles? How should I calculate this so that I get correct flows?
should I add some coarse filter to the chamber 4 before the pump, just to additionally protect the inflow there?

Any other recommendations highly appreciated! 
I hope you will find the sketches useful and thank you for any inputs on this...


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Sooooooo if you put baffles in your sump its going to be noisy. As in very noisy. If you put a moving bed in your sump its going to be even noiser. If the goal is to filter a tank as silently as possible this is a fail.

Skip the baffles. Put a buch of foam in the sump so the water passed through the foam as it moves from one side of the sump to the other with no baffles. Water height the same throughout. Done.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

minorhero said:


> Sooooooo if you put baffles in your sump its going to be noisy. As in very noisy. If you put a moving bed in your sump its going to be even noiser. If the goal is to filter a tank as silently as possible this is a fail.
> 
> Skip the baffles. Put a buch of foam in the sump so the water passed through the foam as it moves from one side of the sump to the other with no baffles. Water height the same throughout. Done.


Hmm.... and I was so working sooo hard to create these sketches!! 
But I see your point. Makes a lot of sense!
So how do you create a uniform water flow horizontally? just separate layers with crates? What about the end before the return pump? Give me some tips... I like the simplicity of your suggestion...


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Most of the sumps are designed for saltwater. All those baffles create excellent aeration and allow for them to do different things in the different compartments. Its overkill for a freshwater tank. Here is someone else who did what I'm talking about in this thread. I don't want to steal his pictures.

Anyway as you can see the sump is just a tank with some foam. On one side water enters on the other side the pump has the return line.

Also unless you really really really really need to do something else, I would make sure you are using a submersible pump and put it inside the sump, not outside. Pumps leak all the time and it's a disaster if its outside the sump. If it's inside the sump you won't even know its leaking nor will you care if you ever find out. Keeping it outside the sump is again a saltwater thing. Probably something to do with the corrosion but I'll admit that's not my area of expertise.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

So something like this?
How do you ensure nice horizontal flow? For now, I have placed in there some perforated walls to separate - could even be just plastic crates placed vertically...








...pump still outside, but will consider your comment


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

aeneas said:


> So something like this?
> How do you ensure nice horizontal flow? For now, I have placed in there some perforated walls to separate - could even be just plastic crates placed vertically...
> View attachment 1026815
> 
> ...pump still outside, but will consider your comment


This is the idea. There is no issue with flow in this arrangement. The water will flow into the sump at the same rate the pump puts it into the tank. It will flow from one side of the sump to other at this same rate because the pump will be drawing the water out and the foam is porous.

You definitely do not need a bunch of ceramic media in this design but it also is not going to hurt much so /shrug. Same goes for the coarse filtration where you have the line in. It will be important for noise purposes that all drainage into the sump happen below water level except for your emergency drain. That one can be above water level and that way if it ever activates you WILL hear it. 

This design also gives you lots of room for things like heaters, a reactor, etc. Feel the need to run carbon or purigen? No problem, just drop a bag in. How many sheets of foam you put in will be directly related to how paranoid you are ;P You need at least 1. After that its up to you.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

minorhero said:


> ... It will be important for noise purposes that all drainage into the sump happen below water level except for your emergency drain. That one can be above water level and that way if it ever activates you WILL hear it.


So I get that the main drain pipe can be fully submersed as it will have 100% water flow... but the secondary drain pipe is probably completely filled with water? I am not yet fully understanding Bean Animal set-up but I understand that that the main drain pipe takes the majority of the flow, secondary takes the remainder, and emergency in case of crisis... 
so if the secondary also goes fully submersed, will I not hear bubbles regularly from the sucked-in air?


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

aeneas said:


> So I get that the main drain pipe can be fully submersed as it will have 100% water flow... but the secondary drain pipe is probably completely filled with water? I am not yet fully understanding Bean Animal set-up but I understand that that the main drain pipe takes the majority of the flow, secondary takes the remainder, and emergency in case of crisis...
> so if the secondary also goes fully submersed, will I not hear bubbles regularly from the sucked-in air?


Short answer is no.

Longer answer is that the bean animal is using 3 different types of drain. A herbie, a durso, and a straight siphon. The herbie is the one that holds the majority of the water. This drain is completely silent as its a siphon with a valve on it to control the amount it can siphon out at any one time. The durso is not a siphon, it has a very small hole in the top that allows air in. This drain takes much less water and the water, due to surface tension, clings to the side of the pipe with an open column of air all the way down. The way you calibrate your bean animal is you open up the herbie as wide as it goes which should take 100% of the water, then you slowly close it till you start to get some water coming through the durso line. Then your good to go. The durso can take a lot more flow which accounts for any changes to the inside of the herbie line that happen with general gunk build up. 

The third line is the straight siphon. This is the emergency line and 'should' always be dry. 

A properly calibrated durso will not be sucking air underneath the water's surface. If its overwhelmed that could happen.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

minorhero said:


> Short answer is no.
> ...
> A properly calibrated durso will not be sucking air underneath the water's surface. If its overwhelmed that could happen.


OK, that makes sense! Thanks for the explanation! 

I like the simplicity direction where we are going with the discussion. And low-maintenance as well. Any other comments regarding baffles vs horizontal flow in terms of (a) sump efficiency and (b) noise of water flow and trickle?
I recently bought George Farmer's book on Aquascaping and loved it... many great tips there regarding the build. But in the Sump section, there was very limited information and I feel there are still so many different DIY approaches where each one has a separate opinion on what works and what doesn't 
I would love to hear some more thoughts, but for now I think I am warming up to @minorhero's suggestion about the horizontal flow with mainly lots of good sponges.


----------



## Scully (Nov 20, 2020)

For the sponge I think you'll want an open cell foam. Look up Matten Filters for more ideas on how to set them up so that you can remove them easily. Your sump will be different than a traditional Matten, but the concept of the foam being the media will be the same. IMO you'll want at least two foam "baffles" so that you can take one out for cleaning and not reset your cycle.


----------



## Okkie (Feb 13, 2021)

As biased as it may seem I find discus builds the most exciting since I have them myself. But with this build there is one crucial factor missing and that's the attempt to limit the amount of bacteria that circulates in the filter. You need some form of prefilter system that limits the unwanted bacteria generated in the tank, from entering the main beneficial bacteria section. I use a pre filter on the intake and an oase filter with a built in prefilter. 

For discus, especially young discus, this is a game changer in terms of growth. Discus are species that are way more susceptible to bacterial issues than any other in this hobby, to my knowledge of course. I honestly believe that two large externals with built in prefilters like the "OASE 850" would serve you better than the sump system for discus. 

But that's just my humble opinion of course.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

Okkie said:


> As biased as it may seem I find discus builds the most exciting since I have them myself. But with this build there is one crucial factor missing and that's the attempt to limit the amount of bacteria that circulates in the filter. You need some form of prefilter system that limits the unwanted bacteria generated in the tank, from entering the main beneficial bacteria section. I use a pre filter on the intake and an oase filter with a built in prefilter.
> 
> For discus, especially young discus, this is a game changer in terms of growth. Discus are species that are way more susceptible to bacterial issues than any other in this hobby, to my knowledge of course. I honestly believe that two large externals with built in prefilters like the "OASE 850" would serve you better than the sump system for discus.
> 
> But that's just my humble opinion of course.


I've had discus for 30+ years and although I have managed to keep them healthy most of the time I did have a few occasions when some of them got sick and I had to treat them with various antibiotics.
For this tank I have not fully reached that stage of planning yet, but I was thinking whether it might make sense to add a UV sterilizer to the return line; I've actually got a spare AquaMedic UV sterilizer still unused... I've not yet made up my mind whether that helps or hurts the ecosystem.


----------



## Okkie (Feb 13, 2021)

I haven't been spending my own money for that long so kudos to you and your long history of discus keeping. In my own limited experience "by comparison" I have found a night and day difference between the health, growth, and fertility of the species in terms of limiting bacteria. 

I'm not a fan of Oase. I much prefer the fluval FX6 for all things filtration related but the Oase prefilter and how clean it keeps the filter... And the difference is a game changer in my experience. Which is why I figured I'd share my experience. I'm looking forward to see this build up and running.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

In parallel to all the sump discussions, I am also starting to consider the lighting options. To make this thread clean and not overwhelm with individual equipment topics, I posted a separate thread in the Lighting section.
Basically, I am considering between 

ADA Solar RGB
Kessil A360x Tuna Sun
ONF Flat One+
Chihiros Vivid 2

Personally, I am kind of between ADA Solar RGB and Kessil A360x but all of these seem to be good options.
Any feedback here or in the dedicated thread in the Lighting section would be much appreciated.


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

aeneas said:


> In parallel to all the sump discussions, I am also starting to consider the lighting options. To make this thread clean and not overwhelm with individual equipment topics, I posted a separate thread in the Lighting section.
> Basically, I am considering between
> 
> ADA Solar RGB
> ...


Have you settled on the final dimensions of your tank yet? This will affect how many lights you need and how much ppfd you can expect at substrate.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

minorhero said:


> Have you settled on the final dimensions of your tank yet? This will affect how many lights you need and how much ppfd you can expect at substrate.


Yes, the dimensions are final; I already have a quote for the build, which is acceptable. 
The tank will be 95" Length, 25" Width, 27" Height. Approx 290 gallons.

I'd love to get some help to determine the appropriate lighting needs!


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

aeneas said:


> Yes, the dimensions are final; I already have a quote for the build, which is acceptable.
> The tank will be 95" Length, 25" Width, 27" Height. Approx 290 gallons.
> 
> I'd love to get some help to determine the appropriate lighting needs!


I'd do the kessil 360x of the options listed. You will need 4 of them. Just my opinion. But be aware the kessil lights use a fan for cooling. 

I'm super interested in the quote you got for the tank though. What thickness of glass will it be and, if you don't mind, how much is it all going to cost? My wife will never allow me a tank of this size so I have to live vicariously.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

minorhero said:


> I'd do the kessil 360x of the options listed. You will need 4 of them. Just my opinion. But be aware the kessil lights use a fan for cooling.
> 
> I'm super interested in the quote you got for the tank though. What thickness of glass will it be and, if you don't mind, how much is it all going to cost? My wife will never allow me a tank of this size so I have to live vicariously.


I am using 19mm OptiWhite and the cost is going to be around 3,200 EUR, which is about 3,800 USD at the current rate.


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

aeneas said:


> I am using 19mm OptiWhite and the cost is going to be around 3,200 EUR, which is about 3,800 USD at the current rate.


Thank you this sounds about what I would expect. Are they making the stand as well or do you need to contract someone else for that? And are they making the overflow for you or do you plan to install a commercial overflow?


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

minorhero said:


> Thank you this sounds about what I would expect. Are they making the stand as well or do you need to contract someone else for that? And are they making the overflow for you or do you plan to install a commercial overflow?


I need to make the stand separately.
I will get a commercial overflow; most likely Exotic Marine Systems - or maybe Modular Marine... haven't 100% decided yet.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

i've never built my own sump, but do run a tank with an off-the-shelf sump (<- my version of 'but i did stay in a holiday inn express last night!'). i'm curious - is having a separate pump chamber considered more or less optional? with only sponges separating the return pump from the rest of the sump's water volume, there's nothing to prevent a flood if the drains are blocked. 

granted, that would be a pretty rare situation, so maybe it's just considered a non-issue with a well thought out emergency drain?


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

So, the lights have been selected - thanks again for all who helped with their feedback and support! We decided at the end to go with the GHL ecosystem which will as integrated work and as unified control of the tank as possible:

*4x GHL Mitras LX7004*
*GHL Profilux 4 aquairum computer*
*GHL Doser 2.1* for fertilization
*Probes: pH & Temperature*. _Do Oxygen & Redox make any sense in freshwater aquarium??_
*Powerbar* - allows Profilux control of each electrical switch for all other connected devices

_Any additional thoughts or comments on this part?_

Furthermore - the design of the sump is now reaching its "final" stages... we will install Innovitech's X.17 fleece roller filter, which should take care of and prefilter all the gunk and larger particles. The rest of the sump will be a horizontal flow of biomedia only. The return pump will be an "oversized" Red Dragon 3 with 100W power and 12m3/h flow (approx. 3,200gph). See scheme below:











Now, the next stage is where I am again complete beginner - coming from 30 years of just low-tech aquariums: *CO2!

PLANNING THE CO2 SYSTEM: *
Pls help me plan the right way to set-up and add to this infrastructure a good CO2 system:

what is the best CO2 kit I could get?
can I control CO2 via the pH probe in the GHL Profilux? For example - adding solenoid valve to the CO2 kit that opens on the pH readout from the GHL pH probe?
how should I connect the CO2 system - intake and output? Do I connect it to the return pipe directly or can I just make a separate independent circle to send the CO2-enriched water back to the last chamber just before the intake of the pump?
...keeping in mind the entire overall design effort, I'd rather avoid additional pumps etc. for the CO2 to keep noise minimal (the Red Dragon is - tested - completely silent despite 12.000m3/h flow)
any additional measures to limit CO2 loss from the sump?

Also: I've been reading some articles regarding automating CO2 dosing based on pH and it seems people have mixed feelings about that... What are your thoughts? I would like to minimize pH swings to keep the stress to the fish (particularly the discus fish) to a minimum... I understand plants do not need as much CO2 at night, but CO2 is cheap and I'd rather loose CO2 and refill more often than have great pH swings and stress the fish... what are your thoughts around this?

...any sketches of your own that you can share or useful threads you can point me towards would be much appreciated! I've read many threads by now but this still seems highly complicated to me and lots of DIY solutions that are beyond my "engineering" skills


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

I've tested a few different co2 reactor setups with my sump, including
1. Branching off the return line and dumping back next to the return pump (back pressure valve after reactor to control reactor flow)
2. Branching off and reconnecting to the return line on either side of a bypass valve to control reactor flow
3. Return pump connected directly to reactor which has an integrated bypass

#1 is not very efficient because some of that post-reactor water ends up going right back to the reactor. #3 is the cleanest and easiest if you want to have something else plumbed into the return (e.g., a sterilizer), but may make the pump work a tad harder than #2 which will do just as well getting co2 into the water.

I've never set up a tank this big, so the above is based on me mentally scaling up what I've done on a smaller volume tank... There may be other considerations I'm missing...


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

Guys, I've posted another separate thread regarding the water flow and return pipes... that will need some brainstorming so I wanted to create a separate topic and will only post the final solution in this journal build to keep it clean.


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Not sure how much to scale your sump drawing is, but remember to save room for heaters and possibly a uv light bar. 

Regarding co2, you will find the best quality co2 reactors and regulations are diy. For whatever reason aquarium companies really haven't caught up on this area yet. That's not to say there aren't off the shelf options available but if you want 'the best' then you will be buying the parts and making them. If you really don't want to make it yourself then look at the stuff green aqua sells. For the cylinder figure out where you will go to get it refilled first incase they have requirements on what cylinders they will use, then buy the biggest one that will fit under your stand. This of course means you need to know the internal dimensions of the stand.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

minorhero said:


> Not sure how much to scale your sump drawing is, but remember to save room for heaters and possibly a uv light bar.
> Regarding co2, you will find the best quality co2 reactors and regulations are diy. For whatever reason aquarium companies really haven't caught up on this area yet. That's not to say there aren't off the shelf options available but if you want 'the best' then you will be buying the parts and making them. If you really don't want to make it yourself then look at the stuff green aqua sells. For the cylinder figure out where you will go to get it refilled first incase they have requirements on what cylinders they will use, then buy the biggest one that will fit under your stand. This of course means you need to know the internal dimensions of the stand.


There will be plenty of space for heaters both in the 1st chamber (next to the roller filter) as well as in the last chamber next to the pump.

Rregarding the UV - I've not made up my mind yet. I have a spare aquamedic UV filter but I've never used one. What is the consensus here... useful to add a UV loop? I would probably need to hook it up with a separate pump to circulate the water through the UV or would you add that again as a "detour" to the return pipe?

Regarding CO2, I've been looking at ELOS or the CO2Art and plenty others. I can also add solenoid valve and link it to the Profilux.
My question with CO2 is particularly how to connect it with the rest of the system; do I a) add CO2-enriched water return line from a CO2 reactor directly in front of the inflow of the return pump, or, (b) make a bypass on the actual return line itself, so that part of the return water goes via a CO2 reactor and then comes back to the return pipe a bit further up, or (c) something completely different? Any input here very very welcome!


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Honestly either of the situations you mentioned will work. Some people like to hook up their system to a pH controller and let it run that way. Since you are planning a pH controller anyway it's easy enough to hook it all in together. Other people run their CO2 a set number of hours a day and after the initial setup, where they dial it in, they don't worry about it anymore.

The advantage of having CO2 on its own loop with its own pump, is that it simplifies your return line plumbing. The advantage of having CO2 on the return line, is you don't need another pump to be running in your tank to make it work. Either will produce the results you want.

Regarding UV, there is an argument that says it will help reduce some of the algae we are concerned about in a tank, not just green water. It will certainly cut down on the number of parasites that might get introduced and survive in a tank. However, you have a sump so adding UV is a lot easier then it would be for someone without a sump. You don't need a separate loop for it, you just need a submersible UV light. You just stick that next to your heaters or any space big enough, and you're good to go. You could even a non submersible light positioned over top of the sump pointing down into a specific area of the water, this is way more cumbersome though.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

aeneas said:


> There will be plenty of space for heaters both in the 1st chamber (next to the roller filter) as well as in the last chamber next to the pump.
> 
> Rregarding the UV - I've not made up my mind yet. I have a spare aquamedic UV filter but I've never used one. What is the consensus here... useful to add a UV loop? I would probably need to hook it up with a separate pump to circulate the water through the UV or would you add that again as a "detour" to the return pipe?
> 
> ...


I provided some feedback on how to connect your co2 to your return a few posts up. Your a is the same as my #1 above and I wouldn't recommend that. Your b is my 2 and that's a good solution that protects your overall flow the most since your return has a straight shot to the bulkhead. For a really overpowered return pump, I prefer (and am using myself) my #3.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

EmotionalFescue said:


> I provided some feedback on how to connect your co2 to your return a few posts up. Your a is the same as my #1 above and I wouldn't recommend that. Your b is my 2 and that's a good solution that protects your overall flow the most since your return has a straight shot to the bulkhead. For a really overpowered return pump, I prefer (and am using myself) my #3.


Thanks @EmotionalFescue! I wasn't yet able to respond to your feedback, but you are correct in terms as #1 and #2. Reading your #3. "Return pump connected directly to reactor which has an integrated bypass" - I did not completely understand this. How do you mean an "integrated bypass"?If the reactor is in the direct line of the return, would a reactor handle 1200gph flow through? Pump can handle it, but I'm not sure about reactors that would be good for this? Would you be able to make a simple sketch of the idea?


----------



## pablos (Aug 22, 2020)

I bought 9W UV submerged filter and placed it close to return pump. It doesn’t complicate design by new circuit. Filter has its own pump, so flow is controlled

In the same chamber I have co2 diffuser (not even reactor). such a simple design manages to drop pH by 1.0 within 1-1.5h hour.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

aeneas said:


> Thanks @EmotionalFescue! I wasn't yet able to respond to your feedback, but you are correct in terms as #1 and #2. Reading your #3. "Return pump connected directly to reactor which has an integrated bypass" - I did not completely understand this. How do you mean an "integrated bypass"?If the reactor is in the direct line of the return, would a reactor handle 1200gph flow through? Pump can handle it, but I'm not sure about reactors that would be good for this? Would you be able to make a simple sketch of the idea?


Here's a pic









Here's how they're oriented in the sump with a run of soft tubing connecting them









I used 3/4" pvc but you'd want to do 1" or more.

It's the same concept as your b, just with the bypass valve attached to the reactor.

EDIT: meant to add that when I said integrated bypass I meant integrated into the hard pipe plumbing I built up around the reactor, not the housing itself (though some have those - I see why that was confusing!). So the reactor doesn't need to handle the full flow of the pump, just as in option b. But the main return line is completely diverted this way and might make the pump work a bit harder.


----------



## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

If I could offer some caution on using a ph controller...

When you first set it up, you're going to use your degassed tank water to figure out where you want your ph to be, and then use the ph controller to open and close the solenoid. There are a couple of difficulties that are worth mentioning...

pH probes get dirty easily, and any build up of bacteria, protein, algae, etc will impact the accuracy. As the accuracy starts to drift, this will directly impact the amount of CO2 you're injecting. Fluctuating CO2 levels can actually exacerbate algae. To prevent this, you're going to need to be cleaning the probe very often.

On top of that, pH probes need frequent calibration. If used 24/7, you'll probably see a drift in accuracy of at least .1-.2 over the course of a week. This will also directly impact CO2 injection rates.

Finally, if something does go out of whack and the probe has a sudden problem, you run the risk of your CO2 staying on when it shouldn't and gassing your fish. If I were to have a huge tank full of Discus and Altums, there's no way I would trust my CO2 levels to a ph controller.

With all that said, there are plenty of people who use them successfully. I'll let those people argue their counter points, but it's just not something I would do.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

EmotionalFescue said:


> Here's a pic
> Here's how they're oriented in the sump with a run of soft tubing connecting them
> I used 3/4" pvc but you'd want to do 1" or more.
> It's the same concept as your b, just with the bypass valve attached to the reactor.
> EDIT: meant to add that when I said integrated bypass I meant integrated into the hard pipe plumbing I built up around the reactor, not the housing itself (though some have those - I see why that was confusing!). So the reactor doesn't need to handle the full flow of the pump, just as in option b. But the main return line is completely diverted this way and might make the pump work a bit harder.


This is a very neat looking reactor. I've been reading last night and my head hurts!!! There doesn't seem to be a clear off-the-shelf solution (Aquamedic 1000 comes closest but still seems to be underpowered for directly in-line with the return pipe).

The I'm reading about The *Rex Griggs reactor* and The *Cerges vortex reactor*, and *Tom Barr's dual venturi design*. And although I kind of get the general idea, it seems way to complicated for me to be able to pull this of and make myself. Any guidance you guys could give me in terms of choosing the right design and appropriate sizing for intended ~1200gph flow and whether any of these have greater benefit for larger flow tanks and maybe also in terms of quietness of operation?




jellopuddinpop said:


> If I could offer some caution on using a ph controller...
> When you first set it up, you're going to use your degassed tank water to figure out where you want your ph to be, and then use the ph controller to open and close the solenoid. There are a couple of difficulties that are worth mentioning...
> pH probes get dirty easily, and any build up of bacteria, protein, algae, etc will impact the accuracy. As the accuracy starts to drift, this will directly impact the amount of CO2 you're injecting. Fluctuating CO2 levels can actually exacerbate algae. To prevent this, you're going to need to be cleaning the probe very often.
> On top of that, pH probes need frequent calibration. If used 24/7, you'll probably see a drift in accuracy of at least .1-.2 over the course of a week. This will also directly impact CO2 injection rates.
> ...


Thanks for the warning. I had the same thoughts myself. I will welcome advise from people who have managed to successfully automate. However, once I get this up and running, I will make sure I monitor for a while quite precisely what is going on and if I will not be too comfortable with reliability, I might just switch to on/off on timer.


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

aeneas said:


> This is a very neat looking reactor. I've been reading last night and my head hurts!!! There doesn't seem to be a clear off-the-shelf solution (Aquamedic 1000 comes closest but still seems to be underpowered for directly in-line with the return pipe).
> 
> The I'm reading about The *Rex Griggs reactor* and The *Cerges vortex reactor*, and *Tom Barr's dual venturi design*. And although I kind of get the general idea, it seems way to complicated for me to be able to pull this of and make myself. Any guidance you guys could give me in terms of choosing the right design and appropriate sizing for intended ~1200gph flow and whether any of these have greater benefit for larger flow tanks and maybe also in terms of quietness of operation?
> 
> ...


The vast majority of reactors are going to be either cerges or rex giggs. They each have their proponents. If you have a seperate pump in your sump you don't need a bypass. If you are plumbing your reactor directly into your return line you definitely do need a bypass. The flow from your pump will be too strong if you do not have a bypass and all the co2 bubbles will just get blown into your tank without having a chance to dissolve overly much. For a rex giggs, the height of the reactor and the diameter of the pipe is what determines how much co2 is being dissolved. 

I linked this video before but its continuously relevant, in this video you can see how a tank thousands of gallons gets co2 injected. At the 18 minute mark they briefly show what is basically just a rex giggs style reactor.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

I have only made cerges reactors, so I can't comment on whether one is quieter than the other. 

In terms of ease of construction, I think you could make a cerges more easily because you could do it without cutting and cementing PVC. I don't think you could say the same about the Griggs. Here's one I made with an integrated bypass and just threaded fittings and tubing:









You could 100% make something like that. No tools required. You would just need the taller 20" housing and larger ports/fittings. I'd be surprised if you could find something off the shelf that's just right for a tank this size, but building your own does not need to be a barrier - you got this!

I would also worry about using a ph controller on its own to run the co2 (i.e. without having a good handle on the infusion rate). You're really going to want to have a flow meter. Dial in your co2 with a pH monitor and figure out what co2 flow rate is appropriate. Once you know what rate is right for your tank you can verify it and recreate it day after day with the meter. No controller required.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

Thanks guys! So considering all of the above suggestions, my return pipe would look something like this... layout would be of course much nicer and I still need to figure out details of "dual venturi" as per Tom Barr's design or regular Cerges/Griggs. As until now: efficiency and noise are important - efficiency seems to be similar, but in limited understanding so far accumulating CO2 bubbles can make some noise if not taken care of. Anyway, something to worry about later. I will try to make one DIY - thanks @EmotionalFescue and others for encouragement.
Do the two schemes below make sense?









Also, looking at UV sterrilizers, I came across this one: Lifeguard ProMax UV Sterilizer... their 3" 55W model is rated for 350gal aquariums and 3600gph flow speed, which seems to be sufficiently large not to create a bottleneck in my return pipe flow. Any experience with this one or any other recommendations for a UV that would work at such high flow rates?


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

Separate topic, but maybe some of you guys have experience with this: I intend to have GHL's Profilux aquarium computer to monitor and control many aspects of the aquarium.
In terms of "actionable" data I get from various probes, I will certainly have temperature and pH probes... 
However I am not too sure about usefulness of the following:

Redox probe?
Conductivity probe?
Oxygen sensor?

The guys at GHL gave me Redox+Conductivity probes in the quotation, but I am not sure how much added value those are in a freshwater tank? Would dissolved oxygen not be more useful? Would conductivity really be of use if I am at the same time adding a whole bunch of nutrients / plant fertilizers?
Any thoughts on these?


----------



## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

I don't know of anyone that really monitors these things


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

minorhero said:


> Regarding UV, there is an argument that says it will help reduce some of the algae we are concerned about in a tank, not just green water. It will certainly cut down on the number of parasites that might get introduced and survive in a tank. However, you have a sump so adding UV is a lot easier then it would be for someone without a sump. You don't need a separate loop for it, you just need a submersible UV light. You just stick that next to your heaters or any space big enough, and you're good to go. You could even a non submersible light positioned over top of the sump pointing down into a specific area of the water, this is way more cumbersome though.


I've been doing some additional research on UVs... it seems for my intended flow (~1,200-1,500 gph) there are only a few UV sterilizers that could support such flow (of course, in a bypass setting) - and these are priced between $500 and $1000. Now, long-term, I will be having expensive discus and altum fish and securing not just algae outbreaks but also control of possible fish infections would be very useful... I would not upfront reject a high investment if it really added value.
However, many comments and reviews seems to be unclear whether UV really helps or not, while on the other side I read some concerning comments that UV might degrade/chelate various micronutrients that I will be adding to the tank for plant fertilization etc. I would certainly not want to destroy a fertilization effort...
Any thoughts on this?
Do people switch on/off UV sterilizer depending on the days of IE fertilization etc. or what is the general consensus and recommendation here?


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

aeneas said:


> I've been doing some additional research on UVs... it seems for my intended flow (~1,200-1,500 gph) there are only a few UV sterilizers that could support such flow (of course, in a bypass setting) - and these are priced between $500 and $1000. Now, long-term, I will be having expensive discus and altum fish and securing not just algae outbreaks but also control of possible fish infections would be very useful... I would not upfront reject a high investment if it really added value.
> However, many comments and reviews seems to be unclear whether UV really helps or not, while on the other side I read some concerning comments that UV might degrade/chelate various micronutrients that I will be adding to the tank for plant fertilization etc. I would certainly not want to destroy a fertilization effort...
> Any thoughts on this?
> Do people switch on/off UV sterilizer depending on the days of IE fertilization etc. or what is the general consensus and recommendation here?


I've never heard of uv breaking down fertilizer faster then the plants can use it. 

You don't need to use UV rated for flow or have a seperate out of sump uv unless you want to. The great thing about having a sump is getting to stick whatever you want in there and having it affect your whole tank. A submersible uv light in the sump will work very well for you. Will it contact all of the water running through the sump in a single pass? No it won't but UV doesn't need to. If it contacts a specific bit of water only once a day its still doing its work. Just use a submersible uv light. They are cheap and the install is as easy as dropping it in. Tada


----------



## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

minorhero said:


> I've never heard of uv breaking down fertilizer faster then the plants can use it.
> 
> You don't need to use UV rated for flow or have a seperate out of sump uv unless you want to. The great thing about having a sump is getting to stick whatever you want in there and having it affect your whole tank. A submersible uv light in the sump will work very well for you. Will it contact all of the water running through the sump in a single pass? No it won't but UV doesn't need to. If it contacts a specific bit of water only once a day its still doing its work. Just use a submersible uv light. They are cheap and the install is as easy as dropping it in. Tada


Just for conversation sake, if a UV light is in the sump, would he need to make sure all of his bio media is sheltered from that light? I imagine the UV light would kill BB too.


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

jellopuddinpop said:


> Just for conversation sake, if a UV light is in the sump, would he need to make sure all of his bio media is sheltered from that light? I imagine the UV light would kill BB too.


It definitely will kill beneficial bacteria, but it's a simple as facing the light away from your media.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

There is an old thread on here where the topic of UV and chelated iron is discussed in some depth. Seems like it could be an issue, depending on your water, but would be obvious because the precipitation clouds the water. You could probably just run the UV at night or only for a day after a big water change, as Tom Barr suggests in that thread.

Personally, I think it would be easier to just plumb a UV inline than to try and sequester an area for it to shine in your sump.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

EmotionalFescue said:


> There is an old thread on here where the topic of UV and chelated iron is discussed in some depth. Seems like it could be an issue, depending on your water, but would be obvious because the precipitation clouds the water. You could probably just run the UV at night or only for a day after a big water change, as Tom Barr suggests in that thread.
> 
> Personally, I think it would be easier to just plumb a UV inline than to try and sequester an area for it to shine in your sump.


This was a great discussion you linked to, thank you! Indeed, I think will do as follows: I will not go buying any extra UV devices - my spare (unused) Aquamedic Max helix 36W is rated for 400gph; I intend to run ~1200gph; I will add this one to the return line in a bypass so that it gets its ~400gph with the rest of 800gph flowing by... and I will run it during the night. This should probably do a decent job in keeping the system relatively clear of algae and pathogen microorganisms; I can lower the circulation and run most of the water through the UV light in case of an emergency...


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

Good news! We had a family meeting regarding this sliding glass door behind the future tank and general consensus was reached: the door is going out! 
So: we now have much more manoeuvring space in terms of plumbing!!
I think it is best now to go back towards a more standard positioning of things - overflow box in the center and the returns on each side of the tank.
BIG QUESTION: do I need to drill and make classical return pipes with ugly plastic outflows or can I instead use two sets of the larger sized glass lily pipes instead?
I saw lily pipes from JARDLI on Amazon that are 20mm for 3/4" ID (19/25mm) Tubing; two sets of these with a Red Dragon 80W pump pushing the water I think these should be more than capable of handling ~600gph each with 1200gph combined flow? ...I also saw GreenAqua had their own glass work offering a 26mm lily pipe but they are pricing it as much as ADA... What do you guys think? Is this a possibility?


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

If it were me, I would run those two returns into a pair of spraybars or two y-split loc-line return jets (i.e., 4 positionable nozzles). I don't think the lily pipes are a natural fit for this project, and it won't matter if they look good if you have a bad flow-induced algae farm.

Whatever gives you good flow is beautiful!


----------



## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Wait... do you have a link for the 26mm lily pipes? I've been searching for 1" Lily Pipes for years with no success...


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

jellopuddinpop said:


> Wait... do you have a link for the 26mm lily pipes? I've been searching for 1" Lily Pipes for years with no success...


Yes - click the "GreenAqua" word in my post - it has a hyperlink.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

EmotionalFescue said:


> If it were me, I would run those two returns into a pair of spraybars or two y-split loc-line return jets (i.e., 4 positionable nozzles). I don't think the lily pipes are a natural fit for this project, and it won't matter if they look good if you have a bad flow-induced algae farm.
> 
> Whatever gives you good flow is beautiful!


Ehm... I'm still on the steep learning curve - so apologies for naive question: can you link to an example of what a suitable spraybar would look like and that is a "y-split" "loc-line" jet? ...Appreciate your help in my understanding this! 

EDIT: I watched this video - 



 ...much more clear now about the loc-lines and y-splits! 
In principle with 4 nozzles I would get just a bit more play on direction, while the lily pipes supposedly make a nice surface flow.
...need to think on this a bit more. Black nozzles seem ugly. Glass spraybars might look nice, but these would be tricky to position as well...


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

aeneas said:


> Ehm... I'm still on the steep learning curve - so apologies for naive question: can you link to an example of what a suitable spraybar would look like and that is a "y-split" "loc-line" jet? ...Appreciate your help in my understanding this!


Sorry for the jargon!

here's an example of the loc-line return I'm referring to:









loc-line is the brand of those segments - they snap together and they're a natural fit for tank returns because you can position them wherever you like and they stay put. The ones pictured above have 3d printed random flow nozzles fit to the ends. I have used this setup specifically. It's pretty cool and effective.

In terms of a spraybar... I'm not sure what you'd use off the shelf. I have made a couple for myself that hang on the back of rimless tanks. You can see that here if you like. If you're drilling the tank, you can obviously get more custom and not have anything coming over the rim.


----------



## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

aeneas said:


> Yes - click the "GreenAqua" word in my post - it has a hyperlink.


Well I feel sheepish....

Thank you =)


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

Played with this central positioning concept a bit more:
Scenario A: 4x glass lily pipes such as Jardli 20mm or GreenAqua's 26mm lily pipes:










Scenario B: two y-split loc-line return jets with some good quality nozzle as suggested by @EmotionalFescue :










What do you guys think?


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

This tank is going to be up against a wall, yeah? If so, I think the lily pipes might be a total PITA because they would be fitted to tubing in the space between the tank and the wall. Servicing the inner two especially seems like it could be positively nightmarish. Having drilled, in-tank returns would be much easier to deal with since you could do whatever you need to with them from the front of the tank. And, since they're not glass, you wouldn't need to do much - if anything - with them in the first place.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

EmotionalFescue said:


> This tank is going to be up against a wall, yeah? If so, I think the lily pipes might be a total PITA because they would be fitted to tubing in the space between the tank and the wall. Servicing the inner two especially seems like it could be positively nightmarish. Having drilled, in-tank returns would be much easier to deal with since you could do whatever you need to with them from the front of the tank. And, since they're not glass, you wouldn't need to do much - if anything - with them in the first place.


This makes a lot of sense. We go with drilling then! Decision is made! 

Can you pls tell me about your 3D printed nozzles - where did you get those? Happy with them? I somehow had an idea that "random flow" is more for reef aquariums and that in freshwater we want to create more a stream / directional flow, but I may be wrong. Really interested in your thoughts on these?


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

aeneas said:


> This makes a lot of sense. We go with drilling then! Decision is made!


If only politics were this easy!



> Can you pls tell me about your 3D printed nozzles - where did you get those? Happy with them? I somehow had an idea that "random flow" is more for reef aquariums and that in freshwater we want to create more a stream / directional flow, but I may be wrong. Really interested in your thoughts on these?


The ones i had were from a company called vivid creative. You're right that the random flow idea is more for reefs. I liked them because they gave the surface ripples (and therefore the shimmer) a much more organic look. I think you would be well-served using standard loc-line nozzles.


----------



## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

Has this project started? I would go with a sump over multiple canisters any day. Unless money is no object then a big high pressure sand filter and UV set up is the way to go. If sump use a plenty strong pump..something in the 2-3000 gallons per hour range for your 1200 liters ( 320 gallons). You might even consider a having tap water drip on the tank...with drain. Always fresh water and the right level.
One thing about larger fish tanks? Its money well spent to get powerful pumps,lots of media..just gives you the public aquarium look 100% of the time.


----------



## *Ci* (Jun 16, 2016)

Stan510 said:


> Unless money is no object then a big high pressure sand filter and UV set up is the way to go.


Like a pool filter? Examples, please?


----------



## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

You would have to do the research..but public aquaria use those and pumps that can be in the horsepower range..but they do it all and you only have to backflush to clean the media.
I just remembered..the DIY King on youtube? He's got that running on his 2,000 gallon aquarium.


----------



## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

I do have one question - why use a UV system? In nature we don't have UV systems and algae is more prevalent. I guess what I'm saying is it seems contradictive to your stated objective to add UV. Also I thought angels and discus were frequently found in black water:









Discus Natural Habitat | How Discus Live in the Wild | DiscusGuy


Discus Natural Habitat is very important to understand when setting up your discus aquarium. This is a must read. Click now to learn more.




discusguy.com


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

Stan510 said:


> Has this project started? I would go with a sump over multiple canisters any day. Unless money is no object then a big high pressure sand filter and UV set up is the way to go. If sump use a plenty strong pump..something in the 2-3000 gallons per hour range for your 1200 liters ( 320 gallons). You might even consider a having tap water drip on the tank...with drain. Always fresh water and the right level.
> One thing about larger fish tanks? Its money well spent to get powerful pumps,lots of media..just gives you the public aquarium look 100% of the time.


Yes it has started - many components ordered and paid for and are in the making... expecting (if all goes well) to have the tank mid-April, if time delays happen then mid-May. I'm starting to sketch hardscape ideas now...
I am going with the sump... that has been decided quite many posts ago. The pump is rated for 12000lph, which is roughly 3200gph. I will probably run it at around 1200-1500gph. I will also include a prefilter with rolling fleece from Innovitech. Curious to see how that works.
I have a softened tap water and a drain plumbed directly to the aquarium; the softened water will go through additional RO unit to remove sodium ions and then will tap continuously into the sump for AWC. Excess waste water will drain out into the drain. This also takes care of any water evaporation.
Everything is controled by GHL profilux computer, including automatic fertilization, CO2 injection etc.



jake21 said:


> I do have one question - why use a UV system? In nature we don't have UV systems and algae is more prevalent. I guess what I'm saying is it seems contradictive to your stated objective to add UV. Also I thought angels and discus were frequently found in black water:


I was considering pros and cons. I have a spare Aquamedic 36W lying around and I will add it to the bypass - for full capacity I would need the 55W unit, but since I already have this one, I will just use it. Controlling algae and parazites / bacteria.
Well... I know what the natural habitats are; but in reality I will not be recreating amazon biotope completely - I will be making a "nature aquarium" which has a lot of focus also on hardscape and plants. So it will not be a discus/altum murky river with some large roots and rotting leaves on the ground - I will try to make a beautiful aquascape that will ALSO give a nice environment to the fish. A compromise


----------



## pablos (Aug 22, 2020)

jake21 said:


> I do have one question - why use a UV system? In nature we don't have UV systems and algae is more prevalent. I guess what I'm saying is it seems contradictive to your stated objective to add UV. Also I thought angels and discus were frequently found in black water:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Naturally rivers are expected on UV-A, UV-B, where UV- C is mostly blocked in atmosphere. Out of them UV-C is significantly more affective against microorganisms, but others still play a role. In nature rivers get constant water changes so you there is no pathogen in water column. 
If you are doing 100% water change daily, bacteria won’t build up, so there is no sense of UV-C. In other cases it will be significantly reduce algae and bacteria in your tank.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

jake21 said:


> I do have one question - why use a UV system? In nature we don't have UV systems and algae is more prevalent. I guess what I'm saying is it seems contradictive to your stated objective to add UV. Also I thought angels and discus were frequently found in black water:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ehm... I just read the post in the link. I choked when I read one of the first lines "_Discus fish are found in Southeast Asia and South America around the Amazon._" Clearly the guy doesn't know what he is writing (Discus are only found in the Amazon river in SA - nowhere else in the world), so the rest of the article becomes irrelevant to me with such a blunder


----------



## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

Yea i noticed that reference to asia also which was a bit bogus. My initial thought was maybe some captive discus had been released....



aeneas said:


> Ehm... I just read the post in the link. I choked when I read one of the first lines "_Discus fish are found in Southeast Asia and South America around the Amazon._" Clearly the guy doesn't know what he is writing (Discus are only found in the Amazon river in SA - nowhere else in the world), so the rest of the article becomes irrelevant to me with such a blunder


----------



## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

This is one thing I have to go what I have read. But,all accounts of UV filters are they are a must with expensive sensitive fish,they also can clear water of any gray that you sometimes see with artificial lighting ( try kneeling down and look up at your aquarium)- UV takes away that slightest gray. Of course it does in the bad guy bacteria and algae spores.
Although they won't kill off blue green algae. Go figure on that.
Still,I see that those who have top notch Koi, always use UV. Must be a reason!


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

I've spoken to my local supplier here who installed also my current water softener and RO system etc and they proposed to use Viqua VH410 UV system, which is actually intended for UV sterilization of household water supply and handles 4200 l/h at 30mJ/cm2. Pretty powerful it seems, but the price is close to $1000. Alternative is AquaMedic Helix Max - I already have a 36W which is probably underpowered, but could swap it for 55W. That one comes almost 4x cheaper... Would it still get the job done or should go for the "pro" and expensive Viqua system?


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

aeneas said:


> I've spoken to my local supplier here who installed also my current water softener and RO system etc and they proposed to use Viqua VH410 UV system, which is actually intended for UV sterilization of household water supply and handles 4200 l/h at 30mJ/cm2. Pretty powerful it seems, but the price is close to $1000. Alternative is AquaMedic Helix Max - I already have a 36W which is probably underpowered, but could swap it for 55W. That one comes almost 4x cheaper... Would it still get the job done or should go for the "pro" and expensive Viqua system?


Using your existing system you only need to slow down the water going through it (ie run it through a bypass or a seperate pump, whichever you prefer). Using your existing uv will work fine if you run the water through it at the appropriate speed. You do not need to have every bit of your return water run through a UV system in a single pass. If it takes all day before all the water in your tank has been through the UV its just as good for your purposes.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

EmotionalFescue said:


> Here's a pic
> View attachment 1027168
> 
> 
> ...


Reviving this post on CO2; most of the other components are now ordered and waiting delivery... I will now play with making the CO2 reactor so that everything is ready when the time comes. 

I will be making a Cerges reactor with a 20" housing; I assume this is also the size of this one above?
@EmotionalFescue: any additional guidance you could give me in terms of building this thing? Why do you have ball valves on the bypass and one reactor arm only, but no ball valve on the other reactor arm? Looking at this, you would not be able to completely bypass the reactor, should you wanted to service it or for some other reasons... Would it make sense to add another ball valve to the inflow arm of the reactor as well, before the CO2 intake?
With reactor this size, do you experience any gurgling and CO2 build-up at the top or does it run more or less silent? I was reading some people then use Tom Barr's dual-Venturi concept but with my lack of engineering understanding I can't really figure out how that would work or how that could be designed. I'd prefer to keep things simple, if possible, but also really want to avoid any extra noise 
You are not using any sponges in there? Some people added sponges in side the reactor and with pump that powerful, I doubt it would impede the flow, but also wonder how much added value that would also be?


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

aeneas said:


> I will be making a Cerges reactor with a 20" housing; I assume this is also the size of this one above?


Yes, this is a 20" housing, but it's the skinny version designed to take 2.5" cartridges. For your large tank, you'll want the wide body version that takes larger 4.5" cartridges (or whatever the equivalent offering in europe is).



aeneas said:


> Why do you have ball valves on the bypass and one reactor arm only, but no ball valve on the other reactor arm? Looking at this, you would not be able to completely bypass the reactor, should you wanted to service it or for some other reasons... Would it make sense to add another ball valve to the inflow arm of the reactor as well, before the CO2 intake?


This reactor was designed to fit into a specific, very tight space:










With a larger tanks and cabinet, you will have much more flexibility than I had for this build.

In terms of valves, the one that's critical for reactor _performance_ is the bypass. I also like to have a back pressure valve like the one in the vertical orientation here because it allows you to do two things:
1. you can close it and the bypass while pushing the pressure release on the top of the housing to quickly purge all of the gas from the reactor, and
2. you can use it to reduce flow and increase pressure of the co2 in the housing, which can increase its dissolution in the water (see Henry's law - solubility of gas in water is proportional to the pressure of the gas above it


Spoiler



I'm not a chemist and I don't claim to know how much difference this makes at the modest pressures we're applying in this application, but it can't hurt amirite?!


)

For our purposes, I think the size of the housing is more important than the back pressure. In any case, having both the input and output sides valved allows you to remove the reactor from your plumbing if you need to do something with it. Which brings me to the second part of your question. Yes, it's good to have both sides of the reactor valved, including the input side, because it makes the whole unit removable. That wasn't very practical here because I didn't have space to add another valve on that side, but the output of the pump has a union which still allows me to take the whole thing out if i absolutely need to, and since it's in the sump, some draining from the reactor is okay. But, I really never need to take it out because I didn't put a sponge in it, which brings me to...



aeneas said:


> You are not using any sponges in there? Some people added sponges in side the reactor and with pump that powerful, I doubt it would impede the flow, but also wonder how much added value that would also be?


I've tried the sponge thing, but it's really not needed with an appropriately-sized housing and a bypass and the sponge gets mulm-funky very quickly, making reactor flow variable over time and necessitating regular cleaning. I wouldn't recommend this.



aeneas said:


> With reactor this size, do you experience any gurgling and CO2 build-up at the top or does it run more or less silent?


This type of design can be a bit noisy because of the way the gas enters the flow through a barbed tee fitting. The gas builds up a bit inside the barb before being swept into the water making a 'glug glug' sound. You can correct this by putting some tubing inside the barb to inject the gas directly into the water flow like this:










Alternatively, you can insert the gas directly into the housing with a bulkhead fitting like this:










The former is much simpler and easier.

Hope this helps!


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

EmotionalFescue said:


> Yes, this is a 20" housing, but it's the skinny version designed to take 2.5" cartridges. For your large tank, you'll want the wide body version that takes larger 4.5" cartridges (or whatever the equivalent offering in europe is).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, @EmotionalFescue I cannot thank you enough! This is very clear and I think I am now less worried about attempting to build this thing! 
Also a great tip regarding the tubing inside the barb! Will certainly do that. What about the build-up of the gas at the top of the housing? Does that ever make a gurgling noise or is that not really an issue? ...so cool. Will have lots of high-tech stuff in here, but also excited about some of these DIY components


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

aeneas said:


> What about the build-up of the gas at the top of the housing? Does that ever make a gurgling noise or is that not really an issue?


It's only an issue if the reactor isn't yet 'tuned'. In other words, if you have a gas pocket building up in the reactor it's because your co2 infusion is outpacing its dissolution into the water. In that situation you would either need to decrease infusion or increase dissolution. Which to choose depends on whether or not you're hitting your co2 targets (as measured by pH drop in the aquarium). I say target*S* because it's really about having the right pH curve throughout your lighting period. With a sump/overflow keeping your gas exchange high, I don't think you'll have any problems in this department.

Decreasing infusion is easy - just turn down the co2. Increasing dissolution is also easy if you have a sized-to-purpose reactor and a pump with power to spare. You simply decrease flow through the bypass, forcing more water through the reactor. That keeps the turbulence high at the top of the reactor and prevents pocket formation. Increasing back pressure is also an option here, but you may not need that, and it's also a bit trickier because it starts to mess with your overall flow. Still, better to have it as an option. 

Now, it's possible to get into a situation where you can't increase dissolution any more and you're still not hitting your pH targets. This is where having a massive tank with a sump could be an issue. I've never worked with a tank this big, so I can't say for certain this won't be a problem for you, but I suspect with the largest size housing you should be okay. If it does end up being a problem, you can place a second housing in line after the first. This would allow you to have the flow you need through the whole reactor _system_ (and, correspondingly, the dissolution rate you need). In this case, you would have more flow than the first reactor could handle on its own. I.e., you would have bubbles escaping the reactor. These would then enter the second reactor which would have the capacity to handle this reduced volume of undissolved gas. Here I should note again that I've never worked with a tank this big, so I'm a bit out of my depth (pun intended). Still, I think you'll be good with one reactor and I can't imagine why chaining two wouldn't fill a gap if one existed. You might burn through A LOT of co2 though, so you'll want to make sure you have an easy way to trade/refill tanks and use the biggest tank you can fit in your cabinet.


----------



## brohawk (May 19, 2008)

Here's my $0.02 on whether to use a pH probe or not. In addition to the issues others brought up w/ keeping the probes maintained, you also may see a gradual change in your tank's kH & gH depending on what you use for hardscape and that'll force you to constantly calibrate your system too. A lot of people tend to worry about drastic pH changes, but really, it's drastic kH and/or gH changes that actually affect your fish. Even a 1+ pH drop during the lighting period won't get noticed by them so long as the kH and gH are constant. Putting your solenoid on a timer and using a drop checker instead is going to allow you to dial in your CO2 levels at a constant 30ppm no matter where your water hardness may or may not drift towards.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

Not sure if this has been discussed in this or another thread, but for a tank this size, you will definitely need a flow meter to measure your co2.

A benefit of that is that once you dial in your co2, you don't really need a drop checker or constant pH monitoring. For example, if you figure out that turning on your co2 at 85% on your flow meter 4hrs before your lights gives you a pH drop of 1.2 throughout the lighting period, then you can recreate that scenario day after day forevermore by just making sure your flow meter reads 85%. This assumes that your gas exchange stays constant, but with an overflow (i.e., built in skimming) and consistent positioning of the returns, there's not much reason for it to change. So, you really only need to measure the pH while you're dialing in the co2.


----------



## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

EmotionalFescue said:


> If it does end up being a problem, you can place a second housing in line after the first. This would allow you to have the flow you need through the whole reactor _system_ (and, correspondingly, the dissolution rate you need). In this case, you would have more flow than the first reactor could handle on its own.


This was something I thought through with my tank, and ended up going with a 3 stage Cerges reactor. The first 2 chambers had the water flowing into the chamber through the downpipe, and out of the chamber via the housing. The last chamber was reversed, and acts as a final bubble trap. Here's a ghetto sketch to give you an idea...


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

A quick update regarding the build... most of the equipment is now already in... still waiting for the stand and the actual glass tank - expected to arrive end of the week or next week.
What I received until now are:

GHL system: Mitras lights (4x LX 7004), Profilux 4 controller, Dosing pump with 4x heads, water probes for pH, conductivity, redox
Royal Exclusive Red Dragon Speedy 3100gph pump for sump
CO2Art Elite CO2 regulator
Innovitech fleece roller filter X1.7
UV sterilizer Viqua VH410 delivering (30mJ/cm2) at 1100gph flow
a bunch of other small stuff...
...it will be lots of fun assembling all of these things 

Quick question: I now have two solenoid valves for CO2 regulator: one which is part of the CO2Art Elite regulator and one that came together with the GHL system and is part of GHL engineering. GHL looks more "hardcore" but I have no idea whether quality is comparable or should I choose one over the other? Any thoughts?


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

You're going to need a flow meter (instead of a bubble counter) for a tank that size. Whether you want it mounted to your regulator or somewhere else in your cabinet might indicate one solenoid or the other.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

Trying to prepare myself now for getting the tank up and running, so I have a few more basing items I wanted to check with you, or, alternatively, if you can point me in the right direction to read more about these things: 
*
1) Cycling the tank:* how to properly cycle a big 290gal tank???

I will plant as densely as possible and add plenty of fast growing plants (some of which I may remove later when everything settles)
I will add some of my old filter media and sponges to the sump to transfer the bacteria (hopefully no bad bacteria though... right now I don't have any discus, so it is hard to tell with these other hardy fish, which look healthy but can carry anything and will not show it)
the tank will be AWC controlled and I will do lots of water changes initially - e.g. 30% WC daily (does this make sense?)
the tank will use ADA substrate, which is nutrient rich so there will be plenty of release into the water during the initial weeks... (ADA Bacter 100 + ADA Amazonia Power Sand + ADA Amazonia Soil + ADA Amazonia Powder + ADA La plata sand)
I will only use inert rocks (like dragon stone), not having any impact on hardening of the water


when do I start with CO2 to help plant growth? CO2 lowers pH and as far as I know that will change nitrogen chemistry and may interrupt my nitrogen cycling. Any tips?
when do I start with fertilisers? ...again, thinking of the maximal efficiency of plant growth vs. nitrogen cycling?
I'll be using R/O water, but I can start and cycle initially with hard unsoftened water if that would be preferable? Should I be using any micronutrients if using R/O and not yet doing full plant fertilisers?
UV on the return flow during cycling: yes or no? Minimise algae growth? bacteria should populate the sump so probably for the nitrogen cycle I am not hurting it if I UV sterilise return water?
lights: full 7h photoperiod from the start or should I start with lower light intensity while plants are getting acclimatised?

*2) Fertilisation: *EI or lean fertilisation?

the tank will be dedicated to wild discus fish; so I need to be mindful of not overdosing nutrients and making their water parameters undesirable (they are currently being held at Ph 6.6-6.8 and with a conductivity of 300 to 400 microsiemens and a temperature of 27ºC / 80.6ºF)
I would like to establish a minimal maintenance tank so although will initially add some fast growing plants, later I would prefer slow growers and more long-term stability; I was thinking lean fertilisation would make more sense, but not sure here... I've never been in this territory of tech yet. I have a GHL-controlled pump with automatic 4 pump heads for microdosing of nutrients.
any fertilisation that I go with needs to be in liquid form... a magnetic stirrer and automated dosing. Not adding daily/weekly by spoons... Happy to mix-up stuff once a month, but then let the system take care of fertilisation regime.
...what fertilisation strategy would you recommend for such setup? 

As always, I really appreciate your inputs... this would be such a scary project doing it alone, but with your guidance I feel I have the collective knowledge of the whole team behind that can make this a wonderful success!


----------



## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

The amazonia you're going to be using has specific instructions on cycling. 50% water change everyday first 7 days, every other day 2nd week, 2× a week 3rd week, and once a week after that. With the ammonia released from it you should be able to cycle your tank without having to add ammonia. If you have any questions about it test your parameters and watch your ammonia levels and track the cycle. It could quite possibly take you less time yo cycle considering you're using precycled filter media. 

I'm running a couple comparably sized tanks and it was scary when I thought too much into it setting it up, once I just jumped in I realized that it's really no different than any other sized tanks and the oversized filtration needed allowed for enough surface area for bb to colonize and reacted in the same amount of time every other tank I've owned has taken.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

Hi all, it's been a while since my last post. We've had some challenges on the way with the manufacturer of the big glass tank etc. so this is causing some delays unfortunately. All of the equipment is now already purchased and waiting to be connected, the stand is ready, so only the glassware is missing.

HOWEVER, I have one big news I'm happy to share: we couldn't resit and we already chose the inhabitants for the new aquarium... beautiful wild discus from the Santarem company. The fish have been handpicked and selected by us (our family) and fully paid for, and the Santarem team was kind and will hold them in a special tank for us until we are fully set up and cycled and ready to receive them in their new home.
Here is a teaser - let me know what you think:


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

I hope you guys like the selection of beautiful wild royals and semi-royals... I think they will be amazing in the new tank and hardly waiting to finish it.

Now, I have ONE MORE FINAL request to make - as I mentioned... all the equipment is bought and waiting - EXCEPT FOR THE SUMP. I still cannot decide whether I have made the right design or not. As you will remember we went for a "horizontal" design to have a simple flow through the foam filter media as biological filtration (like matten filter etc.) and I have the Innovitech Fleece roller filter at the beginning to take out all the nasty stuff and biological debris. It should run pretty clean. On the sides I planned just small 3cm side wings of glass to hold the foam filter media in place and force the water through the media instead of flowing along the walls on the side. At the end - before the return pump, I added a baffle, however not sure if that adds any value? On the top I also added glass wings so that I can place some acrylic cover on top to minimize evaporation.
Here below are the last sketches. PLEASE - can you have one more look at the sump design and let me know if you think the design makes sense, would you change anything, does the final baffle make sense, should I have 2 baffles (up and down) or none? Anything else?
Is the 100cm length (with 50cm width and 50cm height) OK for a sump for the tank we are planning? Since it will be a heavily planted tank and having the fleece roller, I think it should be enough... or do you think I would need to make it 120x50x50?
I would like to confirm the build of the sump early this coming week so that I may start working on the installations etc. and then only wait for the big tank to arrive once it's finally ready - hopefully in about a month.
Much appreciated as always!


----------



## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

If there was room, I would move the heaters to after all of yoir filtration. You'll need to clean the heaters less often this way, and they'll be more efficient.


----------



## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

I'm looking forward to all this! Don't just disappear one day. With my 240 I never considered Discus,but Altums I did. Seeing Angels reach palm sized and marine like is one great looking fish.
You might try sticking with Amazon plants also..although no known mosses in the trade are South American,Monte Carlos is near moss like...plus hair grass. Use red and purple Sword plants. I saw a Russian aquarium where he did that and it was stunning as all Sword plant background on a 6' aquarium.
What are those Corydoras with neon stripe?..off use those if you find a source. $30 each is not too bad.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

Picking up this thread again after a while... the build of the tank is tanking longer than I hoped, but now seems we have a likely delivery date end of July, so not too far away.
I am starting to work on my hardscape concepts as well as picking up the list of plants for the scape.
Choice of stocking with fish will follow soon.
As you can see below, I made a mockup of the actual size with styrofoam, bought crazy amount of wood and rocks and took a shot of recreating the Josh Sim's Congo concept with three "bush" areas and two paths in between. The two bush areas on the left are slightly closer and slightly smaller as to create an asymmetric position (not really golden ratio, but at least hinting at it). The left and right bush areas are slightly more at the front and the central is more at the back, leaning forward, creating plenty of shade areas underneath. 
There will be more rocks and the whole background will be elevated with soil and sand. But at least this is a start...
Let me know what you think of the hardscape? Any comments / suggestions?

Secondly, I would very very much appreciate some feedback and input on the choice of plants. Please see my current idea of foreground (red), midground (green) and background (blue) plants below; I tried to give a rough idea where these could be positioned...
In particular I cannot truly decide what choices to make of the larger background plants... Echinodorus / Anubias / etc. and which ones? Also, I would really like to place a nice area of Rotalas - a combination of green and red H'ra etc. but again, not really entirely sure which ones and where. 
Please see the current sketch below on top of the photo of the hardscape which I put together:










*(A) Foreground plants:*

Eleocharis parvula mini: 50x
Vesicularia dubyana (Christmas moss): 25x (to be glued on to rocks and smaller pebbles)
Anubias nana Petite / Bonsai: min. 15x
Hudrocotyle verticillata: 4x
Cryptocoryne parva: 8x

*(B) Midground plants *

Vesicularia ferriei (Weeping moss): min. 15x
Cryptocoryne Wenditii Green: 10x
Microsorum pteropus Trident: 6x
Bolbitis heudelotii: 4x
Hygrophilia pinnatifida: 6x
Bucephalandra: brown? red mini? dwarf green? how many?

*(C) Background plants*

Eleocharis acicularis: 10x
Cyperus helferi: 5x
Cryptocoryne Balansae?
Echinodorus: bleheri??, tricolor?? - yes/no, where & how many?
Anubias: barteri??, coffeefolia?? - yes/no, where & how many?
Rotala: rotundifolia green??, H'ra??, orange juice??, wallichii?? - yes/no, where & how many?
Aponogeton madagascariensis? I know this one likes cooler water but I love its looks...might try one or two in the corner and see how they perform

The plants are mainly green, but would love some bits of red here and there... 
Finally, I would like to have some plants growing (a) as bacground plants reaching surface and possibly growing leaves out of the water - maybe even blooming occasionally? and (b) choosing some plants that can grow on the parts of the roots that stick outside the water so that there would be some plants growing there not submersed. What would you advise?

Also a top-view of the layout might be helpful so here is a photo of this as well:


----------



## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

I have C.balansae and its a fast grower. I also have Hygrophila angustifolia that sort of resembles it but is more wavy in a current. Its thriving and I think its the extra potassium since Hygro's for me have always started well..then got pale or pinholes..the usual problem in tanks not dosed.
For red,Ludwigia palustris is about as red as they get. Just as mine gets going- the Rainbows eat it back to stems. Alternanthera r. roseafolia has lots of color and it isnt eaten by my fish. They never touch it. Midground for that one.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

Other than helpful tips from @Stan510 (thank you!) - any other thoughts or suggestions on the plant selection and or positioning?


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

Guys, I'll need to place my order for plants within the next few days... last chance to make some comments here! 

Especially I am not convinced yet of whether to order any Echinodorus or not? ...I think broad big leaves will kind of stick away from the fundamental concept... even though the tank is big, the scape is working better with smaller / thinner plants I think. 

I have one question for you: a friend suggested I should maybe swap Cryptocoryne Wenditii Green with Staurogyne repens (more dense bushy growth); what would you think about that idea?

Also: what are some good plants to grow on the roots ABOVE the water?


----------



## gjcarew (Dec 26, 2018)

aeneas said:


> *(A) Foreground plants:*
> 
> Eleocharis parvula mini: 50x
> Vesicularia dubyana (Christmas moss): 25x (to be glued on to rocks and smaller pebbles)
> ...


You should consider that Josh Sim is a professional aquascaper (sure, he has a day job, but this is pretty much a second job for him). When he tried to recreate Congo at Green Aqua, they could not stay on top of the maintenance, and Green Aqua employs a professional maintenance crew. In a scape _significantly_ larger than either his or Green Aqua's versions, your failure point will be ease of maintenance. 

With that in mind, these are my thoughts: 

Don't use eleocharis parvula. Trimming a carpet in that size tank will be a nightmare. I would suggest small plantings of staurogyne repens, crypt parva, maybe some crypt lutea "hobbit", and hydrocotyle verticillata. You can also glue anubias nana "petite" to rocks. It looks more natural than a carpet and these all grow at a much more manageable pace than eleocharis parvula. 

Mosses: I'm generally against these, they grow way too fast and it's hard to get all the trimmings out of the tank. If you don't get all the trimmings out, it ends up looking like a mess. That said, you can't really do a "Congo" style tank without moss. I would strongly recommend replacing the vesicularia mosses with fissidens species and riccardia chamedryfolia. They are much less aggressive growers and will not take over your tank as easily.

Try to keep stems to a minimum. Hygrophila pinnatifida grows and spreads like crazy when it gets going. Rotalas can also be difficult to control once they get going. As far as pops of red, Josh Sim's was almost monochromatically green and I think that's what made it so effective. Still, rather than rotalas maybe consider a plant like crypt spirals "red". It will be easier to maintain. 

I like the tape-style plants, such as crypts, aponogetons, and cyperus helferi that you are considering. I'm not a fan of eleocharis acicularis because the tips of the plant develop new plants, and it looks ugly once it grows out. They won't show you that in marketing pictures for the plant, of course. For finer textured plants similar to eleocharis acicularis, maybe something like eriocaulon "feather duster" could be an option. I wouldn't recommend using large anubias in the background, it will kill the sense of scale of the background. If anything, use larger anubias like coffeefolia in the foreground and smaller anubias varieties in the background.

Moss will do well above the water line, as long as it is touching the water. Epiphytic ferns like davallia fejeensis are also great options, and I think they match the theme of the tank. Air plants and spanish moss can also be glued on the driftwood above the tank.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

gjcarew said:


> You should consider that Josh Sim is a professional aquascaper (sure, he has a day job, but this is pretty much a second job for him). When he tried to recreate Congo at Green Aqua, they could not stay on top of the maintenance, and Green Aqua employs a professional maintenance crew. In a scape _significantly_ larger than either his or Green Aqua's versions, your failure point will be ease of maintenance.
> 
> With that in mind, these are my thoughts:
> 
> (...cut to make reply shorter...)


This is fantastic feedback @gjcarew thank you!! Exactly what I was hoping for.
Will revise the list slightly and move forward with placing the order


----------



## mourip (Mar 15, 2020)

aeneas said:


> View attachment 1029805


I realize that the diagram above is just a preliminary to give us the general idea but the way you have the RO part drawn is not really how that system works. The RO water output comes from the filter itself and the tank is for holding pressurized water. The fitting on the lower side of the tank is for re-pressurizing the rubber bladder inside the tank with air. It is not the system output. You will not need to use the doser to push the water in your scenario, the pressurized tank will push the water. You will just need a solenoid valve and a switch that is activated by the water level in the sump to control how much water gets injected. 

There are probably a ton of explanations for doing this properly on reef tank forums as those folks tend to use sumps and top off for salt tanks is always RO or otherwise treated fresh water. I have often seen it done in two steps where the RO water is kept in a large barrel with a level switch and that water is then pumped to the sump and controlled by another level switch in the sump. Be sure to build in fail-safe so that your water will not overfill the sump!


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

mourip said:


> I realize that the diagram above is just a preliminary to give us the general idea but the way you have the RO part drawn is not really how that system works.


you might be right there... as you say, this is only a sketch; I will have plumbers come over to do the actual installation so that everything will (or should) be connected properly.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

One BIG dilemma I'm currently having still - and I need to make a choice soon - is regarding the back wall of the aquarium; the aquarium will be set against a wall and once standing there will be almost no way of tinkering with the back side... (a) should I leave it bare transparent glass or (b) should I use a dark grey/black foil (such as Filipe used in his Wild Discus tank - 



) or possibly a cloudy-white foil?

...If I use foil it makes the rear glass clean and puts the focus into the aquarium; also if I use dark foil it makes the whole thing with higher contrast; however on the other hand I also feel adding a dark foil somehow "closes" the scenery and makes the wall very very visible... you know where is the "end"... loosing depth dimension in some way.

...On the other hand, if I use transparent glass, I think the aquarium "breathes" a lot more; there is more depth and openness... but you also get to see the piping at the back; I will have three pipes in the middle for the bean-animal overflow, one pipe on each side for the return flow and four vertical alu bars that are holding the lights above the tank. So there will be some "stuff" but not a lot; I will have plenty of roots and plants to cover, but I am sure some will remain visible.

I've never done such a huge tank so really can't fully imagine what will work better; the only thing I do know is that whatever I decide, it will be more or less permanent decision, as I will not be able to do much with the rear wall once standing in place.

What would your gut feeling say?


----------



## mourip (Mar 15, 2020)

aeneas said:


> One BIG dilemma I'm currently having still - and I need to make a choice soon - is regarding the back wall of the aquarium; the aquarium will be set against a wall and once standing there will be almost no way of tinkering with the back side... (a) should I leave it bare transparent glass or (b) should I use a dark grey/black foil (such as Filipe used in his Wild Discus tank -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have a 75g tank with a 4 foot Twinstar LED fixture for lighting. The back of my tank is about 6 inches from the "wheat" colored back wall. The lighting in the tank is great. It is natural while still doing especially well with the reds. The downside of having my having a clear back side is that the red LEDs in my light panel create a pale red "stripe" on the wall. It is now mostly covered by my tall rear plants but I do still notice it. 

So depending on the lighting that you use, it's position above the tank and how you treat or do not treat the back wall, you may have an issue with the light spill. Personally I like the open back look and wish that I could have worked out a "penninsula" position for good 3-sided viewing.


----------



## mourip (Mar 15, 2020)

aeneas said:


> you might be right there... as you say, this is only a sketch; I will have plumbers come over to do the actual installation so that everything will (or should) be connected properly.


The plumber will get the RO unit set up correctly but you will still have the issue of how to regulate top-off flow into the tank. You will need a solenoid valve and/or a float switch in the configuration that you are showing. And since the water coming directly from the RO filter is already pressurized you will not need the dosing pump.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

Plants ordered... now choosing the fish! As you know, the Wild Disus are the main inhabitants here. But I want this to be a community tank so that there will be more stuff happening around various places and roots... from large to small. Here is my current thinking of the tankmates. Pls help me brainstorm. Cleaning crew sufficient?

*MAIN DISPLAY FISH*
•12x Trombetas / Batata / Irpixi Royal Wild Discus

*OTHER DISPLAY FISH*
•100x Cardinal Tetras
•10x Puntius denisonii (Denison Barb)
•8x Congo Tetras
•6x Electric Blue Acara
•6x Cockatoo Dwarf Cichlid (Apistogramma cacatuoides)
•6x Agassizi’s Dwarf Cichlid (Apistogramma Agassizi Double Red)
•6x German Blue Ram (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi)
•20 Rummynose Tetras?

*CLEANING CREW*
•30x Otocinclus
•10x Coridoras sterbai
•10x Corydoras trilineatus
•10x Coridoras aeneus CW010
•50x Amano Shrimp (XXL large ~5-7cm size)
•10x Clithon corona snails
•10x Neritina natalensis snails
10x Vittina waigiensis snails


----------



## gjcarew (Dec 26, 2018)

If it was me? Fewer different species of dwarf cichlids and more schooling fish. Denison barbs, Congo tetras and the acaras might not like the high temps (depending on how hot you intend to keep the discus).


----------



## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

One comment; the poret foam is a better form of bio media than the 'bio balls' or similar that is frequently labeled bio media. It might be helpful to put in some coarser poret foam in the area you have labelled for bio media to capture larger particles and then have finer foam where you have your poret foam. The poret foam comes in different ppi...
--
Also I would drop the shrimp i can't see them lasting long with adult acara; also the apisto you chose will not do well in the warm waters required by the german blue rams. There are apisto that do better in warm waters such as macmasteri and viejita as well as iniridae. You will have to check their temperament. Finally it was suggested to myself not to keep electric blue acara with german blue rams as they will easily out compete them for food. I would also note that the congo tetra and barbs are not south american fishes (if that matters); and the barbs are not going to be over joyed with the warmer waters for rams.
-
winemilleri geo are an option.



aeneas said:


> I hope you guys like the selection of beautiful wild royals and semi-royals... I think they will be amazing in the new tank and hardly waiting to finish it.
> 
> Now, I have ONE MORE FINAL request to make - as I mentioned... all the equipment is bought and waiting - EXCEPT FOR THE SUMP. I still cannot decide whether I have made the right design or not. As you will remember we went for a "horizontal" design to have a simple flow through the foam filter media as biological filtration (like matten filter etc.) and I have the Innovitech Fleece roller filter at the beginning to take out all the nasty stuff and biological debris. It should run pretty clean. On the sides I planned just small 3cm side wings of glass to hold the foam filter media in place and force the water through the media instead of flowing along the walls on the side. At the end - before the return pump, I added a baffle, however not sure if that adds any value? On the top I also added glass wings so that I can place some acrylic cover on top to minimize evaporation.
> Here below are the last sketches. PLEASE - can you have one more look at the sump design and let me know if you think the design makes sense, would you change anything, does the final baffle make sense, should I have 2 baffles (up and down) or none? Anything else?
> ...


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

Quick status update: the stand is in, the glass is in, the sump and installations half-way there. Intend to finish by end of the week, then scaping and planting over the weekend if all goes well. Looking good (IMO) except for the background foil which turned out too transparent... I wanted a more "milky" diffusing one that would not let through much of the background stuff. Will post more.


----------



## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

What kind of light is that on the aquarium ?


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

jake21 said:


> What kind of light is that on the aquarium ?


None yet 
But the stands are for the GHL Mitras lights. They will stay in boxes until everything else is finished.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

Quick question: filter media in the sump? I intend to use coarse foam + ceramic bio media + fine foam.
The ceramic bio media will most likely be Eheim Substrate Pro. However for the foam I cannot decide yet; I have JBL foam available cheaply - could use 10ppi on one end and then several 30ppi on the other end. 
However reading the forums, people seem to be continuously raving about "Poret" foam... is it really any different? Would a Poret 30ppm foam be any better than a JBL 30ppm?


----------



## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

I don't see the point of the bio media; the foam is a better bio media. Also I would use different density - start with coarse foam and then medium and then fine before the return to the tank.


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

aeneas said:


> Quick question: filter media in the sump? I intend to use coarse foam + ceramic bio media + fine foam.
> The ceramic bio media will most likely be Eheim Substrate Pro. However for the foam I cannot decide yet; I have JBL foam available cheaply - could use 10ppi on one end and then several 30ppi on the other end.
> However reading the forums, people seem to be continuously raving about "Poret" foam... is it really any different? Would a Poret 30ppm foam be any better than a JBL 30ppm?



It really doesn't matter. If you have access to foam that will fit in with enough rigidity to stay upright when running then that's all you need.

Looking good on the build!


----------



## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Gotta second what @minorhero suggests - go with whatever's cheapest on the foam front. Some of the Poret stuff is bonkers expensive for what it is when you have to buy really large pieces. The JBL/Dennerle foam has been just as good in my experience. 

And you absolutely cannot go wrong with Eheim's Substrat Pro. It's my all-time favorite ceramic media. But... in a tank that size, you may also want to consider just buying pumice. It would save you gobs of cash and serve the same purpose, as it's effectively Seachem Matrix media. Search around here on the forum for comparison threads and you'll find what I'm talking about.

The tank is already gorgeous and it's _empty_! Can't wait to see how this plays out.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

Hi guys, crisis in the house!!!
Today I tested with the water to check the pipes and seals and before the water was 1/4 full the corner silicone seal started leaking!!!
The guys who made the aquarium said they tested it before delivery and this probably happened during transport. They say they can mend this by squirting some fresh silicone into the crack that was created… that this will seal the leak fully. That structurally the aquarium should hold the pressure and there is not structural damage - just a small leak. 
I am not sure I buy this story. Would you trust this? Would you trust just resealing with a fresh squirt of silicone or would you request complete reglueing? Sooo frustrating!!


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

I am pretty conservative when it comes to leaks. Silicone does not stick well to silicone already dry. I would want it completely resealed if possible.


----------



## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

I'd need the entire tank to be resealed or they'd be refunding my money. Hope that's part of your warranty.

If Petco or the average mom & pop LFS can refund when there's a leak? They can do the same. Or redo the tank, which is going to be cheaper for them. More labor but still cheaper.


----------



## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

I don't think I'd ever sleep with a known leak on a 1200L tank. My tank is only 20 gal and I already jump out of my skin everytime I hear an unusual noise.

Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

They agreed to take the glass apart and completely reseal again. Will extend the whole process for approx 2 weeks...


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

aeneas said:


> They agreed to take the glass apart and completely reseal again. Will extend the whole process for approx 2 weeks...


The extension sucks but this is definitely for the best.


----------



## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

As others said definitely do not accept a squirt; the old silicon needs to be removed and new silicon applied directly to the glass.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

A quick update: tank resealed (completely) and this time looking good! 
Scaped and planted; here is a quick view... pls excuse the ugly stones which are used to keep the wood from floating until it soaks enough to stay submerged... also added lots of Tetra SafeStart bacteria as well as filter sponges and biomedia from my old 400L tank so cycling should hopefully not take too long. Added some fish from my old tank to get the "biology" of the tank going... Let me know what you think!
Now I need to figure out how to set-up these Mitras lights to have a good lighting schedule. They are amazing lights but the interface is not very user friendly to be honest 



















and a shot of the sump area... still a few items missing, but getting there:


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Wow what a journey! Tank is looking nice!

How does it feel to have come so far in making the dream a reality?


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

minorhero said:


> Wow what a journey! Tank is looking nice!
> 
> How does it feel to have come so far in making the dream a reality?


Wait till the Wild Discus arrive in a few weeks!! Then we can talk!! 😃


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

Lookin' good!


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

BTW, I just remebered some of the discussions earlier... @EdWiser - do you have any recommendation how to set-up the Mitras well, for example that you have programmed sunrise and sunset and a reasonable ramp-up with mid-day lighting and then easing down towards the evening? That is something I would ideally like to achieve - and I know it is possible with these lights, just that the interface is annoyingly "geeky"


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

aeneas said:


> A quick update: tank resealed (completely) and this time looking good!
> 
> Now I need to figure out how to set-up these Mitras lights to have a good lighting schedule. They are amazing lights but the interface is not very user friendly to be honest
> 
> View attachment 1033506


Dang, lights (and tank) look awesome .


----------



## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

how did you mount the aluminum bars which hold the lights ?


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

jake21 said:


> how did you mount the aluminum bars which hold the lights ?


This is GHL's FlexMount system for these lights; very simple to install. Here is an image from their website:


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

aeneas said:


> This is GHL's FlexMount system for these lights; very simple to install. Here is an image from their website:


Rest of the story in pictures..how to mount the bars to a cabinet...








Mitras Flex Mount Assembly Instructions


I recently bought a Mitras Flex Mount for my Mitras. It did not come with any instructions. I was wondering if anyone had a set of instructions or pictures on how it should be assembled. Thanks for the help




www.reef2reef.com


----------



## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

So if your stand has no back there is no way to attach them.... that is what i wanted to know.



jeffkrol said:


> Rest of the story in pictures..how to mount the bars to a cabinet...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## EdWiser (Jul 14, 2015)

aeneas said:


> BTW, I just remebered some of the discussions earlier... @EdWiser - do you have any recommendation how to set-up the Mitras well, for example that you have programmed sunrise and sunset and a reasonable ramp-up with mid-day lighting and then easing down towards the evening? That is something I would ideally like to achieve - and I know it is possible with these lights, just that the interface is annoyingly "geeky"


I have been slowly tweeting the lights since the tank has been set up. I will post you my current settings. 
I have a Mini Pc hooked up to my living room that is connected to the lights and the Profilux computer. So it easy to play with the lighting. Adjusting it for my wife’s taste is the hard part.


----------



## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

EdWiser said:


> I have been slowly tweeting the lights since the tank has been set up. I will post you my current settings.
> I have a Mini Pc hooked up to my living room that is connected to the lights and the Profilux computer. So it easy to play with the lighting. Adjusting it for my wife’s taste is the hard part.


How does it connect to the pc; via wifi, bluetooth or usb and what software runs on the pc ?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

jake21 said:


> So if your stand has no back there is no way to attach them.... that is what i wanted to know.


Yea, took me awhile to figure that out too.
The 04's weigh 3.5#'s

Anyways they have a lot of geeky literature on line 
Oddly the pdf won' t open in android. No issues in windows though.





Mitras LX 7xxx Manual - GHL (International)


« » Download Info Views: 6764 File size: 3.09 MB Downloads: 2195 Updated: 01/02/2017 Categories: Manuals Download Description Download




www.aquariumcomputer.com


----------



## FishBR (Sep 2, 2014)

Gorgeous tank! I am now following this thread and can't wait for updates. Sorry if you have explained that already, but what kind of wild discuss will you be getting? I am a big fan and have kept and bred wild discus for many years (unfortunately I don't keep them anymore). You can check videos of the red discus I kept in the past (mostly Cuipeuas) in my YouTube channel called "Wild Discus and Rainbowfish." Anyway, good luck with the project.


----------



## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

Should open on android probably a pdf reader issue. Guess I'll need a long usb cable; they talk about wifi in the intro of the manual and the app shows tcp as an option but no actual discussion on how to use wifi. Also no android app mentioned. Weird beast. Guess you folks really like it given the other oddness. I'd probably just hang them from ceiling since i don't think the back can support the weight of 4 units.



jeffkrol said:


> Yea, took me awhile to figure that out too.
> The 04's weigh 3.5#'s
> 
> Anyways they have a lot of geeky literature on line
> ...


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

jake21 said:


> Should open on android probably a pdf reader issue.


Only pdf I've downloaded ( dozens) that won't open.
All the others open in google drive just fine..
Odd and o/t. ..


----------



## EdWiser (Jul 14, 2015)

jake21 said:


> How does it connect to the pc; via wifi, bluetooth or usb and what software runs on the pc ?


The lights and Profilux are on my computer network. I also have long cables if I need to do firmware upgrades. 
My lights are attached the back of my custom stand.


----------



## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

Been awhile since I check it out and its looking awesome. As devil's advocate,you might want to merge the middle and outer driftwood so to avoid the 1,2,3, formal looks and instead have an island,then break,then one small island. But hey,you like what you like.
When it comes to plants? I can tell you ferns like Bolbitis and the various Java ferns and the perennial Anubias do not like 80f Discus like temps..or more for the Discus than even that. They prefer low 70's. Funny nobody ever relates the fact that ferns are forest and shade plants mostly..and that carries even to under water.
Also..did you use Styrofoam under the aquarium?.goes a long ways to spread out the pressure evenly.
Also-- even George Farmer at ten months is have serious Discus problems and Co2. I won't go on the Discus and bright plant aquarium thing. But it is about the most difficult combo there is for long term.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

EdWiser said:


> I have been slowly tweeting the lights since the tank has been set up. I will post you my current settings.
> I have a Mini Pc hooked up to my living room that is connected to the lights and the Profilux computer. So it easy to play with the lighting. Adjusting it for my wife’s taste is the hard part.


Hey @EdWiser , when you get a chance, I am very much looking forward to your light schedule / settings that work for you.


----------



## Jason K (Jan 3, 2009)

This setup is glorious. Only thing that seems a little odd is how symmetrical and evenly spaced the scape looks. Maybe move the middle island off center or combine two islands into one?…just a thought.


----------



## Jason K (Jan 3, 2009)

Lol. Just read the comment literally right above my reply that said the same thing. My bad.


----------



## Rainydazs (Jan 22, 2011)

What heaters are you going to use? I have a 220G and need to maintain 82 degrees - Needs to fit in the sump as well.

I love your setup.... been taking notes for sure!


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

How are you feeling about your equipment choices now that you're up and running? 

Happy with that Red Dragon pump? I just installed a smaller version myself and I'm really impressed with how quiet it is.

How do you feel about your flow using the four return nozzles?


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

...really curious how this project is going...


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

Hi all,
it has been way too long since my last post. It has been a crazy period in my work/private life and was hardly able to keep up with it all. In short, the tank is set-up, the fish seem to be quite happy, but I cannot get algae under control.

The final set-up is as follows:

Computer control: GHL Profilux 4
Sensors / probes: pH, Temperature, Conductivity and Redox
Pump: Red Dragon 3 Speedy 100W
Lights: 4x GHL Mitras LX7004
Sump with simple horizontal flow; lots of mechanical and bio-filtration media and peat
Innovitech X-filter as a pre-filter
CO2 electronics by CO2Art
CO2 diffusion in a large Cerges-style reactor
UV filter by VIQUA model VH410
Eheim e400 heater and Eheim Pro 400 air pump
AWC with reverse osmosis (5-stage with an active pump etc.)
remineralization of the RO water using Seachem equilibrium
***I also do have a GHL pump with 4x pump heads for automatic fertilization and 2x GHL floater sensors for AWC, but these are not activated yet... no time

Water parameters (using JBL Pro Aquatest kit):
NO2 (0.15 ppm), NO3 (5 ppm), NH4 (<0.05 ppm), PO4 (0.05 ppm), Fe (0), KH (4.5), pH (6.4), T (28), Conductivity (351uS), Redox (205mV); if tables are correct, the calculation of CO2 from KH and pH, the CO2 should be at ~50ppm - is this correct?

Fertilizers, minerals etc.: 
Because I used huge amounts of nutrient rich Tropica soil, I figured for some time I would not need to add significant fertilization, so I only add several caps of the Seachem Flourish to the water and remineralize with Seachem Equilibrium to reach ~300us conductivity.
The lights are up for 10h, of which 2h are very dark morning/evening light and only 4h at max light and the rest is ramp up and ramp down.

In short, the summary so far: 

as you know, the aquarium build was being delayed, the wild discus were waiting to be shipped in Portugal (Santarem); to speed up the cycling process I added a few bottles of Tetra Safestart bacteria and the filter media from my old tank to the sump. Cycling went incredibly fast and within ~5 days or so the entire cycle completed and stabilised. However, adding old filter media was a BIG mistake! Although I took great care there were no snails, there must have been eggs in the filter media - I now have a major snail infestation. In the old tank the snails were kept in check by clown loaches, but in this discus tank I decided NOT to have clown loaches - they are just a bit too hectic for the peaceful scenery... *what should I do to get rid of them?*
I kept cycling the tank for another ~2 weeks, slowly adding the small fish and then the 12 wild discus from Santarem Discus.
the tank also has a support crew of many Ottos, various Neritina and Corona snails and I also bought ~50 XXL Amano Shrimp
strangely, contrary to what most people said, the Neritina and Corona snails happily stay in the tank (open top) and never venture out...
however, I lost at least half of the Amano Shrimp by them choosing to jump out and I was finding them all over the place - even 10m away from the tank 
I saw once that a group of Discus attached a shrimp alive and chewed him up... but other than that, the shrimp do not seem to be a major target for Discus and are left alone

Problems: 

soon after cycling completed, algae started appearing. My worst nightmare are the "hair algae" - they completely fill up the tank within 7 to 10 days; I need to continuously remove them. They killed many plants already - most moss was destroyed by these algae, as well as many of the nice Buce plants and H'ra is continuously under attack. It seems whenever the hair algae overgrow, all the Discus get darker colour - they really are not liking something in the water... as soon as I clean up the aquarium from the algae, the Discus regain their full colour, even without a major water change... so strange.
I also have some BBA algae, but these are not such a major issue
occasionally a small patch of cyanobacteria (blue-green algae) appear, but again, these are not a major issue and can be removed quickly
...it is really the hair algae that are a huge menace and I have no idea what to do about them. Clearly the small group of remaining Amanos are no match for them and I do think the Amanos stick to the hidden areas in the roots so that they are protected from Discus... they do not venture out much.

Below are some photos to give you some idea of the tank and the fish at the moment. I did not have time to make really good ones, but will make some more effort in the future. If you can help with some suggestions on how to better establish the right ecosystem and balance of nutrients, ferts, CO2 etc. to reach the more suitable environment for plants and less suitable for the algae, that would be greatly appreciated.

The layout:









A detail on the left:









The magnificent wilds:









Some individual photos:
























































And now the uglies... these are the algae that are getting worse and worse... literally they overgrow the ENTIRE tank within 7 to 10 days and the fish can somehow feel something that the algae are producing as they become dark and less active when the algae overgrow... WHAT TO DO??? I do not have an "overgrowth" picture at the moment, but you know how it is... I'll try to take one next time before I am cleaning.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

One thing I forgot to mention... I have no CO2 control. Considering the large tank, I just have a continuous open flow of bubbles - not a massive speed but a continuous drizzle. I just had no time to play with tuning. 
So I do realise most likely my poor plant growth and algae overgrowth is due to inproper CO2 + fert balance, but would really appreciate some tips to get me started on the right path to solve this problem.


----------



## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

If you are using co2art regulator you can control the amount of co2 into the reactor and the time it comes on/off via a smart plug. 
-
For getting rid of snails you have a few choices - assassin snails (they will multiple faster than folks say but they dig a lot); loaches (zebra are probably the most mellow - but you might not want loaches); some dwarf cichild will eat them - i find my hongsloi seem to be eating them (there are a few species of apisto that can handle the warmer waters of discus but no guarantee that all species of apisto eat snails). lettuce trick (put lettuce in - let the snails get on it then yank it out - but of course this will amost never get 100%).


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Regarding co2 concentrations.. I'd be surprised if you have 50ppm of co2 since my understanding is that most fish start to suffer and die before that point, but maybe that would explain why your amanos are ditching. What is the ph difference between degassed tank water and a straight reading from the tank (presumably 6.4)?

How much par/ppfd at substrate are your lights? And what is the length of the light cycle? If you don't have a par meter you can fake it a bit with a few smartphone apps.

Your decision not to fertilize your tank with a complete fertilizer is also likely telling. You should definitely stop using flourish (which is basically a fertilizer for people with a few easy to grow plants and a lot of fish) and start using a complete fertilizer system. Before you figure out co2 ph change, strength of lights, and fertilizer, I doubt you will be able to get the algae under control because your tank is clearly out of balance.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

You've got an uphill battle on your hands, but maybe we can help you get it going in the right direction!

First, your water is very warm, and the tank is very lightly planted. Even with lights, fertilizers, and co2 perfectly dialed in, you may have your work cut out for you on the algae front, and without them dialed in...

If I found myself in this situation, here's what my approach would be:

(probably) turn the light down
I'm not sure how strong those lights are, but it looks like you could be pumping a lot in there for the plant types and volume you have, especially without having co2 worked out
Until you get things figured out, limit duration to 8 total hours
Reduce peak intensity from 100% (we may have more work to do here to figure out what's a good level)

Get co2 sorted ASAP
Get a flow meter and/or a pH controller
Target a >1 point drop between degassed tank water and peak infusion
not sure how well Discus tolerate co2 so maybe start with 1pt and try and go up to 1.2ish


Buy dry fertilizers and mix your own solution - we can help with how and how much
start fertilizing and be consistent

Establish and maintain an aggressive water change schedule
Start with something like 3 day periodicity between changes
Gravel/sand vac each time
Change out a decent amount like 50%
Remove unsalvageable plants regularly
Increase periodicity by 1 day as things improve until you can go 7 days gracefully, then stick with once per week

Stick to the plan and wait
You've got to get everything stable (lights, co2, ferts, maintenance) and then give it time to settle and improve

You could increase your plant mass in both temporary and permanent ways to increase stability in your system. For example, you have big open unplanted areas. You could create some floating plant flotillas over those areas. You could plant some really fast growers even just in pots that you can remove later once your scape is well established.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

jake21 said:


> If you are using co2art regulator you can control the amount of co2 into the reactor and the time it comes on/off via a smart plug.
> For getting rid of snails you have a few choices - assassin snails (they will multiple faster than folks say but they dig a lot); loaches (zebra are probably the most mellow - but you might not want loaches); some dwarf cichild will eat them - i find my hongsloi seem to be eating them (there are a few species of apisto that can handle the warmer waters of discus but no guarantee that all species of apisto eat snails). lettuce trick (put lettuce in - let the snails get on it then yank it out - but of course this will amost never get 100%).


CO2: indeed, I could control it via GHL computer directly... but until I know what to control it against, I am in the dark. We need to somehow figure out the pH vs CO2 and then use GHL computer to control the CO2art solenoid valve in response to pH... but I have no idea how to even start the hypothesis-test-refine approach to this?
...one extra "problem" with the CO2art (and maybe other bubble counters as well): my glass bubble counter continously runs out of water... is this normal? I fill the bubble counter with water (to ~75%) and then release the bubbles to a nice trickle... the bubbles must be pushing water mist via the hose to the Cerges reactor so in a week or so the glass bubble counter is empty... I can see CO2 gass still being pushed but the glass counter is only air (gass) by then and no water remaining. What am I doing wrong?

The lettuce is a good idea - I remember reading about this... will definitely try, at least to reduce the population somewhat. Not sure about adding more fish at the moment... 



minorhero said:


> Regarding co2 concentrations.. I'd be surprised if you have 50ppm of co2 since my understanding is that most fish start to suffer and die before that point, but maybe that would explain why your amanos are ditching. What is the ph difference between degassed tank water and a straight reading from the tank (presumably 6.4)?
> How much par/ppfd at substrate are your lights? And what is the length of the light cycle? If you don't have a par meter you can fake it a bit with a few smartphone apps.
> Your decision not to fertilize your tank with a complete fertilizer is also likely telling. You should definitely stop using flourish (which is basically a fertilizer for people with a few easy to grow plants and a lot of fish) and start using a complete fertilizer system. Before you figure out co2 ph change, strength of lights, and fertilizer, I doubt you will be able to get the algae under control because your tank is clearly out of balance.


CO2: I agree - 50ppm does not seem right since my bubble flow is decent but not crazy and the water surface is enormous plus I am using air pump with airstones in the sump which further breaks the surface. What is a good way to measure the degassed tank and fully CO2 saturated? e.g. how long do I stop CO2 to be degassed, and for how long should I leave CO2 on to saturate back?





EmotionalFescue said:


> You've got an uphill battle on your hands, but maybe we can help you get it going in the right direction!
> First, your water is very warm, and the tank is very lightly planted. Even with lights, fertilizers, and co2 perfectly dialed in, you may have your work cut out for you on the algae front, and without them dialed in...
> If I found myself in this situation, here's what my approach would be:
> 
> ...


Many many thanks @EmotionalFescue for such in-depth feedback! Much appreciated!! I will go step-by-step:


> 1. (probably) turn the light down


OK! I will also check the settings more specifically to give you a more detailed info on the light programme and intensity... but will dial-down to 8 total and maybe 2h peak



> 2. Get co2 sorted ASAP


I have a flow meter - a glass bubble counter from CO2art, until I figure out how much CO2 is needed, the counting of bubbles is arbitrary... I have it on a continous trickle. I have a pH probe connected to the GHL computer and the GHL can control on/off solenoid valve of the CO2art. However, we need to figure out what are the parameters for "on" and parameters for "off". How to go about testing this properly? ...with the colour-changing CO2 indicator, I am not sure how good that one will be since it only measures pH and since my water is very soft and pH low, I wonder if that drop checker will give appropriate results?
...So I should then degass the tank for a few days and then open up the CO2 bubbles? For how long should I let the bubble flow to assume water is saturated at the current flow? I assume I would do this by starting with the bubbles in the morning then letting them flow for a few hours and measuring the pH drop? If pH drop not enough I should increase the bubble flow and then again letting it go for a few hours before noting the new pH levels?



> 3. Buy dry fertilizers and mix your own solution - we can help with how and how much


Perfect, will do that. What fertilizers do you suggest to buy & mix as a good start? I am noticing very low PO4, zero Fe and there seems to be currently some build-up of NO2 (0.15ppm) with NO3 at 5ppm.



> 4. Establish and maintain an aggressive water change schedule


Luckily I have AWC setup so I can do that... will need to take care of remineralization schedule... and what do you do with fertilization since we will be doing a continous water change? E.g. for each 100L water replaced by remineralized RO water we add a bit more ferts back?



> 5. Stick to the plan and wait


Check! Let's figure out how to bring this one under control and flourishing!


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

aeneas said:


> I have a flow meter - a glass bubble counter from CO2art, until I figure out how much CO2 is needed, the counting of bubbles is arbitrary... I have it on a continous trickle.


Sorry, miscommunication. When I say flow meter I mean something like this:










For a tank that size a bubble counter won't help. You'll need an amount of gas that would look like an uncountable, constant stream of bubbles. The flow meters have a ball that floats in a tube through which the gas is forced to flow. You compare the height of the ball to a background scale to know what your flow rate is. You should be going through a 10lb tank of co2 every two weeks or so I would guess.



aeneas said:


> For how long should I let the bubble flow to assume water is saturated at the current flow?


I would recommend turning the co2 on two to three hours before the lights. I would draw tank water to test at the end of the light cycle at the point you would be turning the co2 off.



aeneas said:


> What fertilizers do you suggest to buy & mix as a good start?


You will need potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, potassium sulfate, and a micromix with iron. I'm not sure what's available where you live, but in the states GLA is a popular retail supplier of dry fertilizer components.


----------



## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

The honest truth. Get rid of any plant that requires anything more than low light. Stick with low-light anubias, moss, buces, java fern, etc, turn your lights way down low and increase water changes to at least 50% twice a week. I'm assuming with discus your already doing big water changes. Add anything that removes organics from the water like purigen, carbon, etc.

All the co2 in the world will not make a difference with those lights and the organic load. Co2 is not an algacide it relies on plant mass to prevent algae, you have very little and too fill it up with fast growing stems is not realistic with the Discus. If your water quality remains poor from dying plants and organic build up the Discus will eventually suffer. You need a pristine tank in every sense of the word.

Other factors going against you are the depth of the tank and your high temps for Discus. The former requires strong light to reach the bottom of the stems and the latter increases algae production.

FYI: The table for co2 is unreliable since too many variables can affect PH/KH. For example my tank has Seiryu stone in it which increases KH amongst other things. My ph is 6.5 and my kh 16 so according to the table my co2 would be around 150ppm, but somehow my fish and shrimp have survived for three years.


----------



## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

I know a few people who use ph to turn off/on but i think that is the wrong approach. For me I do it via ph drop. I shoot for .6 to .8 - basically i measure ph with no co2 and then measure when i think full saturated (2 or 3 hours of it running). As long as i get it into the range I'm happy - then i turn it on 30 minutes before the light come on and turn it off when lights begin to dim. Is it perfect no but it seems good enough. There are a lot of things that can cause algae - and i've read a ton of contradictory information. It seems to me that almost everyone will get at least a little bba. Generally other forms of algae seem to occur when growth of plants are inhibited for some reason (lack of fert, light, ...). For example i've noticed in my tank removing stuff floating on top can trigger some algae until things rebalance not because of too much light but because things have to rebalance.

For my low tech tanks i have to scrape them about once a year and even then it is just a spot or two on the glass. for the high tech tank - i scrape about once every 30 to 60 days and again just a few limited areas. I never bother with the back because i could care less if there is algae on the back.

Also when people talk about algae it is hard to tell if they are talking about a few spots on a leaf or glass or massive out-break. None of my tanks are 100% algae free but they have seem to reached a 'balance' where the algae is fairly minimal. My 3 year old tanks seem to have reached a reasonable balance and the only head-ache occurs when replacing co2 canister.

As for the bubble counter - yes mine (I have 2 regulators) are without water and i stopped refilling. I found bubble counting pointless anyway for aquariums of any real size - i think it only make sense for the nano tanks (5 or 10 gallon); for 40 and 100 gallon tanks and larger - you need a lot of bubbles 




aeneas said:


> CO2: indeed, I could control it via GHL computer directly... but until I know what to control it against, I am in the dark. We need to somehow figure out the pH vs CO2 and then use GHL computer to control the CO2art solenoid valve in response to pH... but I have no idea how to even start the hypothesis-test-refine approach to this?
> ...one extra "problem" with the CO2art (and maybe other bubble counters as well): my glass bubble counter continously runs out of water... is this normal? I fill the bubble counter with water (to ~75%) and then release the bubbles to a nice trickle... the bubbles must be pushing water mist via the hose to the Cerges reactor so in a week or so the glass bubble counter is empty... I can see CO2 gass still being pushed but the glass counter is only air (gass) by then and no water remaining. What am I doing wrong?


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

aeneas said:


> CO2: I agree - 50ppm does not seem right since my bubble flow is decent but not crazy and the water surface is enormous plus I am using air pump with airstones in the sump which further breaks the surface. What is a good way to measure the degassed tank and fully CO2 saturated? e.g. how long do I stop CO2 to be degassed, and for how long should I leave CO2 on to saturate back?


Don't try to degass your whole tank. Take a ph reading from your tank and write it down. Then take a cup of water from your tank and either let it sit for 48 hours or put a bubbler in it and let it run for 6 hours bubbling and then measure the ph from that cup of water. What you should see is about a 1 ph higher reading from the cup then the tank. BUT I strongly suspect you will see very little difference.

Anyway, I'd like to throw my support behind what @Asteroid had to say. Given the size of this tank stems are going to be a real pain even if they were doing well (which clearly they are not). I've identified a few problems here but measuring the strength of your lights and turning them to an appropriate level and length of time is going to be pretty essential. For instance, do you know right now if your lights are 20 par/ppfd at substrate or 400 par/ppfd at substrate? The former would be considered low light and turning it down lower would be all but a guarantee of plant death, the latter is so strong that almost nothing you do will allow your tank to be algae free. Finding a way to measure that strength is probably priority number 1, followed shortly by the other measures I and other folks have suggested. Fortunately you can in fact get a pretty good rough estimate for FREE either by using a lux meter and dividing by 80, or the apps I mentioned previously, or even a lux meter app.

Good luck.


----------



## aeneas (Feb 15, 2021)

EmotionalFescue said:


> Sorry, miscommunication. When I say flow meter I mean something like this:
> View attachment 1039070
> 
> For a tank that size a bubble counter won't help. You'll need an amount of gas that would look like an uncountable, constant stream of bubbles. The flow meters have a ball that floats in a tube through which the gas is forced to flow. You compare the height of the ball to a background scale to know what your flow rate is. You should be going through a 10lb tank of co2 every two weeks or so I would guess.
> ...


OK, clear! I see you have Brooks Sho-Rate; what size would be appropriate for an aquarium? how do you connect that to your solenoid? In CO2art the solenoid is directly connected to the bubble counter afterwards, so I'm not sure how then to disconnect these units?


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

aeneas said:


> OK, clear! I see you have Brooks Sho-Rate; what size would be appropriate for an aquarium? how do you connect that to your solenoid? In CO2art the solenoid is directly connected to the bubble counter afterwards, so I'm not sure how then to disconnect these units?


Getting a flow meter with the correct flow range can be a bit tricky, or at least there's a learning curve, primarily because people typically buy used. For your aquarium, you would ideally get a flow meter that has a ~100ccm (air) max flow rate. If you're willing to spend ~400 US you could get something new. A good price for something used would be ~$50-75 US.

Because you have the expandable manifold block model, it will be difficult to connect a flow meter directly to your regulator while using the solenoid you have. But, you can use the flow meter in line. To do that, remove the bubble counter from the block and remove the tubing nut from the top of the bubble counter. You can stick a co2 line right on where the bubble counter was and use the nut to keep it in place. Run that tubing into the flow meter, which you can mount vertically in your cabinet in a convenient location.


----------



## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Any updates on this tank?


----------



## kjonulak (Oct 29, 2021)

I'd like to also get an update on this tank, especially the GHL lights. If you need help programing your GHL P4, I'd be happy to help.


----------

