# Crocodile toothpick fishies!



## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

Any pics? Id love to see these guys!


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## Varmint (Apr 5, 2014)

I found this page. Not a lot of info but an adorable picture. I didn't know there are freshwater pipefish. Very cool! Keep us updated on how yours do!
http://theaquariumwiki.com/Indostomus_paradoxus


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

Technically they aren't pipefish, they just act like them. 
There are freshwater pipefish, one species, in fact.

I just saw another one today, drifting lazily around.

Here's all I have on them from research and observation.
Maximum size: 3 cm or so, males maybe a bit smaller. Very small, very thin, low bio-load.
Food: Very small things. Could possibly be weaned onto Cyclop-Eeze, but can usually feed themselves from bugs in plants. 
Compatibility: Not afraid of active fish like emerald eye rasboras, don't care about others. Probably safe with anything that won't eat them. Will also be safe with any cherry shrimp past newborn stage- they're very tiny and have small mouths. 
According to the former owner, they prefer to have others of their kind around, like ottos. That's why I got all five, so none would be left with too few companions. 
Breeding: Not sure. Egg-layers, I think. Probably best to keep them in a heavily planted tank and just let them do their thing. 
Gender determination: Males (sometimes) smaller and skinnier than females. I have two males, one female, and two indeterminate ones that are in-between. It's possible they can change gender- no one's really sure. The only breeding instance I've read about was basically a bunch of them in a planted tank on their own, so we have no proof they can't change gender like many fish can. 
Other stuff: They hover around a lot and use any nearby object as 'down', so they can be seen swimming vertically. They're very slow, methodical feeders that kind of just drift around... I'd say they need special feeding, except that they feed themselves. 
Do not keep in a non-planted tank. Also, probably best to give them some oak leaves in hopes of growing bugs. 
You will NOT see them often. They aren't skittish, just kind of reclusive. They prefer to hang around in the background and will only sometimes drift out to look around. 
They are simply not afraid of most fish. I watched one sit in the middle of an emerald rasbora swarm for a few minutes, and it didn't seem to care that it was surrounded by streaks of chaos that were bigger than it. They're also very curious about shrimp, but they aren't able to eat an adult one or even bother it very much. 
Very rare in the hobby, as far as I'm aware. Grab them if they turn up.

Down at the bottom we have a picture of all of them in the bag, and also the only good picture I have of one while it's in my tank. It's demonstrating that anything it chooses is the floor.

If you get the chance and have a planted tank with fish small enough to not eat them, buy these guys. You may not see them much, but they have such a low bio-load it's okay. Plus, that just makes it more awesome when they do come out.


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## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

Those are some awesome fish!


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

They most definitely are.

And I've just confirmed something else about them: They like to be under things. Two of mine are currently hanging out under a piece of driftwood, upside down with their bellies a millimeter away from the wood, and they were doing similar things in the display tank. Interestingly, being in a display tank didn't seem to bother them at all... They were just doing their thing.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

From the pictures, they look like Loricaria.

v3


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

They do look a lot like tiny whiptail cats, I suppose, but they definitely aren't. They have pipefish heads, for one, and they're much rounder. Whiptails are kind of flattened if you look at them from the side.


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

I think I can safely say that these guys are not suited for tanks that aren't tiny. I just don't see them at all. 
Perhaps a better setup would be a bunch of leaf litter at the bottom and a piece of driftwood, maybe a plant or two. Loads of leaf litter = loads of bugs, but that would mean they might be out more. They didn't seem too timid in the display tank- which is interesting given that many fish are -so I think they'd be okay with the much sparser environment.


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

Saw two of them today, and one was the largest one. That probably bodes well. 
One just came drifting out to spend some time sailing around the bottom right out in the open. He's my new phone wallpaper. Little thing wasn't scared at all... In fact, I put my finger up to the glass a quarter inch away from him and he just followed it around with his eyes. They're remarkably bold for such reclusive, tiny little things.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

Armoured stickleback is what I see them sold as most often. I had a hard time getting mine to eat anything other than live foods when I had them years ago. They have tiny little mouths. Having a well established, mature planted tank will help as it can provide an additional food source from the micro fauna in there but will still need to provide them with live foods from my experience.

They could be either Indostomus paradoxus or Indostomus crocodilus.


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## gillie (Jun 13, 2010)

Varmint said:


> I found this page. Not a lot of info but an adorable picture. I didn't know there are freshwater pipefish. Very cool! Keep us updated on how yours do!
> http://theaquariumwiki.com/Indostomus_paradoxus


They are more closely related to the stickleback group, but pipefish, seahorses and sticklebacks are all related.


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

ua hua said:


> Armoured stickleback is what I see them sold as most often. I had a hard time getting mine to eat anything other than live foods when I had them years ago. They have tiny little mouths. Having a well established, mature planted tank will help as it can provide an additional food source from the micro fauna in there but will still need to provide them with live foods from my experience.
> 
> They could be either Indostomus paradoxus or Indostomus crocodilus.


The ones I'm seeing are still plump and happy. I think they're good...
The former owner had them in a 2.5g and wasn't feeding them. He gave his betta mysis and that was it. I think they'll be okay, but I am offering them foods now and then to see if they want any. They won't take anything. 
They're eating at something I can't see, definitely. I see them picking at things, and even when it's right on the glass I can't see what it is. Must be something tiny. 

How would one tell the difference between the two? The pictures I found seem to indicate that crocodilus have larger back spines...


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

Betta132 said:


> The ones I'm seeing are still plump and happy. I think they're good...
> The former owner had them in a 2.5g and wasn't feeding them. He gave his betta mysis and that was it. I think they'll be okay, but I am offering them foods now and then to see if they want any. They won't take anything.
> They're eating at something I can't see, definitely. I see them picking at things, and even when it's right on the glass I can't see what it is. Must be something tiny.
> 
> How would one tell the difference between the two? The pictures I found seem to indicate that crocodilus have larger back spines...


They are probably feeding on micro organisms in your tank if it's a mature and well established tank but I would still try to supplement them some live food. Daphnia, baby brine shrimp, or micro worms. The only difference that is noticeable is in I. paradoxus the males don't posses dark brown or black bands in the dorsal and anal fins. Regardless of which species they are they both require the same needs. Very cool fish but can be a little tricky when it comes to getting proper nutritional needs.

One more thing is keeping them in a appropriate sized tank. A smaller tank will make it easier for them to catch the food.


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

Hmm... Micro worms? I could try that- bet I can get a culture. If anything, the tank would love them. I know they can survive for a while underwater, maybe I'll just put a bunch in the back and see if anybody wants them.

I can't vouch for coloring on the fins, they're a bit reclusive. I'll have to try next time I see one. 
Any way to sex them? I'm guessing that my two smallest are males and my bigger fat one is a female. Not sure about the two in-between ones. 

They're in a 29g but tend to stick around the back of the tank, possibly because they prefer the shadows. 
Do you think they're shy or just a bit reclusive? They don't seem afraid or anything when drifting around in the open, but they stay in the back a lot. I see them perching on the underside of the wood, so I think they like shadows. They appear to love my hornwort clump, too. 
I'm working on growing a moss/hornwort clump area for critters to breed in. I bet they'll love it.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

They do prefer to hide under branches as that is what they would do in the wild. You can also add leaf litter. They are a shy and reclusive fish but as long as they are getting their dietary needs met you should be good. Any floaters will also make them feel more at home and diffuse the light. I had mine in a 10 gal. tank and the bottom was covered with leaves and they always were hiding under them or on the underside of wood. You could also put some PVC pipe in there for them to hide in but I prefer to keep it as natural as possible so the wood and leaf litter did just fine. I just noticed the other day that a new sponsor here, Aquarium CO-OP has these listed for sale. I may have to try them again in the future as I haven't seen them at my LFS for over 9 years. Probably because most people wouldn't even notice them in their tanks. Keep this thread updated as I would like to know how they do for you.

Edit: Here's a cool video of one eating I found on YouTube

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KtmXLPDhNtU


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

Lots of duckweed and hornwort up top, some oak leaves in the bottom, also some twigs. I think I'll add more leaves, but I gotta find some that don't release buckets of tannins. Maybe pecans... Lots of veins and places for buggies.
I may add a few more sticks for them. Hopefully that'll make 'em come out more just to hover under the sticks. 
I hardly see them, but I wouldn't get rid of them if I could. They have so little bio-load that the little I see of them is worth it. 
I'll update now and then with anything new or just continued success stories, and with the occasional cutie photo. 

I really hope I can coax them into breeding for me... I doubt it'll happen, but maybe if I'm really lucky.


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

Saw two of them today. One was a bit larger, and the small one was under an overhang. Larger one went under the overhang, small one fled. Not sure if it was territorial or what. 

The males appear to have blackish stripes across the rays in their fins, but the membrane is clear. Does that tell anyone what kind they are?

Edit: 
Confirmed! Indostomus crocodilus, judging by the markings on the fins of the two I know are males. 
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/indostomus-crocodilus/

Anyone know if a lack of the stripes means it's a female? These are from the same source, so presumably they're all the same.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

Betta132 said:


> Saw two of them today. One was a bit larger, and the small one was under an overhang. Larger one went under the overhang, small one fled. Not sure if it was territorial or what.
> 
> The males appear to have blackish stripes across the rays in their fins, but the membrane is clear. Does that tell anyone what kind they are?
> 
> ...


If they are indeed Indostomus crocodilus then the males will have wide elongated pelvic fins that curve and the females pelvic fins are straight and not as wide.


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

Can you confirm that a slightly darker color and the black stripes on the fin rays mean I have crocs? The membranes lack any color, as far as I could see.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

Betta132 said:


> Can you confirm that a slightly darker color and the black stripes on the fin rays mean I have crocs? The membranes lack any color, as far as I could see.


That's usually the case. The males in Indostomus crocodilus will have dark brown or black lines in their dorsal and anal fins.


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

Good... That should help me figure out if I have any females. Hoping I do... I wanna see if they'll breed for me. 

Males appear to be mildly territorial when it comes to nice spots. One of mine puffed up a bit and kind of looked display-ish towards a smaller male who was under a nice dark overhang. Tiny one retreated but didn't seem particularly mad.


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

One of these is a contrast shot against the Biocube lid when it fell in. Very good picture of a little fella. 
Other two pics are just cute things, including one showing what he does when he's nervous about a phone or similar; rests down on the bottom and just sits still. 

Not sure if that video worked or not. Let's see.
It's just a video of one little fella swimming around.
No, he didn't get nipped by that one rasbora- it just bumped into him. They do that now and then, bump into others who suddenly appear.


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

To sum up some of the things I've learned about these guys, especially today: 

They like to swim with their back pressed to the underside of a stick. Makes them look like a piece of bark. 

They should NOT be kept without wood or sticks or similar. It's their favorite place to be, as far as I can tell.

They can actually move very fast when startled, despite their tiny fins. 

The tail is mostly used for steering, but the fin can be used for one strong push if they need to dart to cover. 

They have a pair of tiny fins in their stomach area that they often rest on.

Males tend to become more active if they see each other. Not sure why. It doesn't look aggressive...

Males do not have gonopodiums, as far as I can see, so I doubt they're livebearers.

They don't seem to school or anything. Their habit of being near each other is likely due simply to them liking certain spots- such as all hanging out under driftwood. 

They aren't a huge fan of bright lights but will venture out into the open now and then to investigate. 

They're curious and seem very smart. 

Upon noticing somebody watching them, they often pause to stare at their watcher for a minute or two.

They like to sit still and pretend to be twigs. 

They aren't particularly bothered by other fish. They do avoid large clumps of activity, but they don't look scared... They just slowly circumvent the overly active area, eyes on the activity, and proceed on their way once they get past the chaos. 

They don't like being approached from behind by larger fish and will quickly swim a few inches away before continuing. 

Oddly, being run into by an emerald eye rasbora (fast, about as long as the 'crocs but three times thicker) doesn't bother them beyond making them race away a few inches and put something between them and the offender- at least, from what I saw. Little guy didn't even look upset, just kind of annoyed.


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## dasob85 (Feb 4, 2012)

Very cute. A friend had these breed in her tanks and I brought over a macro lens for some photos. not sure if she had crocodilus or paradoxus though.


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

Care for the two is identical, as far as I can see. 
How did she breed them? Did they just decide to breed, or did she do anything in particular? Got any pictures of fry?


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

I've just found one dead  
The smallest one... No marks on it aside from missing eyeballs and an apparent missing gill cover. I blame the baby MTS for those, as I found one chewing on its belly. Its belly doesn't look sunken in or anything, so I don't think it starved... 
My guess would be perhaps old age? I was told that they grew in the time that the former owner had them, but I'm assuming they were juveniles or young adults when captured. I doubt anybody caught a tiny baby toothpick out of the wild... They're simply too small. I'll have to ask how long the former owner had 'em.


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## CoryLover8 (Jul 31, 2014)

They seem inflexible based off of the video that was posted above. Have you thought of moving them to their own tank?


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

They are pretty inflexible little fish, they just motor around with their fins. They can bend their tails if they need to, but they usually don't... Like twig catfish. 
I don't have the space to set up another tank, and plus they need a very established tank so they can eat the little bugs. Also, not sure if I could even find them to move them!


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

Was starting to get concerned about the rest, as I haven't seen them in a while, but one came out today. He looks healthy, at least. He's darker colored than I remember, though, and the two little fins on his underside are black along the bases and leading edges. The coloring is even, so I don't think it's some kind of illness... I bet it's a change in response to the black sand in the tank. Many of the more reclusive fish I've seen can change colors to some extent.
Two of the emerald eyes took nips at his tail as he swam up through the school, but he didn't seem too bothered... He darted a couple of inches, then resumed his leisurely swimming. These fish are really not scared of things, so I'm not sure why they spend so much time hiding. Not afraid of the boisterous rasboras, not afraid of me outside the tank, not afraid of my hand IN the tank adjusting things... I don't get it.


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## Jaseduck (Sep 14, 2014)

I have some in my tank and I have no idea how they got in there.


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

Really? 
Could they have come in on some plants, perhaps as eggs? 
Any clue how many? 
Happen to have a picture or two?


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

The three largest are still alive, but I'm not sure if I have all four. Can't tell.


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## NotCousteau (Sep 25, 2014)

Jaseduck said:


> I have some in my tank and I have no idea how they got in there.


You're the luckiest aquarist ever.

Really great, helpful thread, Betta132. Thanks for sharing, and keep us all updated!


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

I haven't seen them in quite a while, and I'm kind of worried. The plant life in the tank has been dying off, probably due to too much duckweed draining all the nutrients, and I don't know if they're just sticking to the back because of lack of cover or if they're gone due to lack of food. There's lots of mulm and stuff, so I hope that's growing enough food for them.


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

The tank crashed a few days ago. They're gone. So is just about everything else. Weirdly, the only survivors are my amano shrimp and the nerite snails.


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## elo500 (Apr 24, 2013)

Sorry to hear that. What were the water Params /ph that you kept them in? Do they need soft water ?


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

I'm not sure what parameters they need, actually. They did fine in Austin water with some tannins in it, so I'd say anything not too far to the hard side of things should work well. It would probably depend on the source. 
They don't seem terribly sensitive to nitrates, though the planted tank meant I didn't have high nitrate levels. Overall, these little dudes seem reasonably hardy if they can find enough food.


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## jellie (Jan 31, 2010)

Betta132 said:


> Care for the two is identical, as far as I can see.
> How did she breed them? Did they just decide to breed, or did she do anything in particular? Got any pictures of fry?


Hey, that's me. Heh.
I'm a year late but I just got ahold of a few more of these fishies (I.crocs supposedly) with the hopes of breeding them again. I hope you don't mind if I post in your thread? Please let me know.

To answer your question, back then I kept them in a wild sand tank as in it was literally in a north facing window getting morning sunlight and most of the plant growth was riparian with a mess of roots underwater. Minimal care. I topped off the water, threw in ketapang leaves or any browned plant leaves lying around the house, occasionally fed brine shrimp (I use a hatchery dish), daphnia and scuds (when I had them), greenwater/infusoria (window cultures). I had microworms on hand back then but I don't recall if I fed those regularly. I must have but I don't have the sense that I did... odd. I can agree that the toothpicks like it dark so I had a big piece of overhanging driftwood pretty much blocking any direct sunlight and many random pieces of binchotan bamboo charcoal tubes for their houses. lol PVC pipes also do the trick, I've heard.

I did observe that the females were hugely fat when the fry appeared (eggs or cannibalism, I will never know...). I will try to track down those pictures.

This happened in the winter, in February, which is odd considering that there was the cold from the window affecting the tank temperatures. Maybe the breeze mocked their natural monsoon season (I believe they are native to Burma/India), when the cold/dry season comes in? I have no idea.

pH was slightly acidic, brown with tannins
TDS was soft 40-120ppm
temp was set at 70-80degF

I did not get the opportunity of raising the fry since I left overseas soon after they hatched and by the time I returned, there were none remaining despite my extra precautions of adding moss and brown leaves. Later that year, my breeding stock sickened until I was down to one adult survivor. That tank has been torn down.

Surprisingly this survivor is still fat and alive and ornery as ever. I added three youngsters recently (.75"), and am looking for more, in the hopes of seeing them breed again. Looks like Spring/Summer is the best time to look for these fish. Wish me luck. I can't sex these guys for my life. I can't even tell if they're crocodilus or paradoxus.

Here's pics of the fry, that's sand under it:









And for size, that's Najas grass:









macro pics from dasob85:


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## elo500 (Apr 24, 2013)

Did you buy them from the wet spot?


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## jellie (Jan 31, 2010)

elo500 said:


> Did you buy them from the wet spot?


That's right. I got my first I.croc group from Franks Aquarium, second were I.paradoxus from Wet Spot, and now this is my third group, I.crocs also from Wet Spot. It may or may not have been the paradoxus who bred, actually...


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## elo500 (Apr 24, 2013)

Lol I was too cheap to pay the shipping from the wet spot.


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## jellie (Jan 31, 2010)

elo500 said:


> Lol I was too cheap to pay the shipping from the wet spot.


I used to group buy to cut down on shipping costs but this one time I said screw it, I want my fishies now. And to think they had just sold another 6 the month before. :icon_frow


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

Oh my gosh they're _precious!_ Tiny little mottled babies with tiny fins and huge mouths- he looks like he could eat his own tail if he could bend that much!
Aquabid has toothpickies now and then, though there's no guarantee of species.
Hmm... do you suppose crocodilus and paradoxus could hybridize? I don't think there would be any behavioral issues with combining the two, but hybridization might be a bit of an issue.


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## jellie (Jan 31, 2010)

I wish I could tell you about hybridizing since I kept my two species together. I think there were some 30-40 babies, it was an impressive number.

BTW, did you ever observe them get really mad at the glass on the tank? They would venture from their territory and "attack" the glass and keep it up for hours. I always worry that there's something wrong with the water then but I don't know. My oldest toothpick is doing that this morning.

Their tank, as of today,


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## sombrerobanana (Nov 3, 2012)

I hate to hijack this thread, but where are some places that I could buy these fish online? I've checked Frank's Aquarium and aquabid and there's nothing available. I'd love to get some of these guys, they're awesome.


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## Kehy (Feb 5, 2012)

sombrerobanana said:


> I hate to hijack this thread, but where are some places that I could buy these fish online? I've checked Frank's Aquarium and aquabid and there's nothing available. I'd love to get some of these guys, they're awesome.


I believe The Wet Spot has some, and I've heard nothing but good about them.


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## sombrerobanana (Nov 3, 2012)

Kehy said:


> I believe The Wet Spot has some, and I've heard nothing but good about them.


I'm not seeing anything on their website, unfortunately...


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

They seem to be somewhat seasonal, and very unusual. I suspect it's because nobody can find them to collect them, they're probably accidental collections with other stuff. Just keep an eye out, they pop up now and then.


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