# Need help! T5ho or LED?



## RCfishfreak (Aug 28, 2014)

I'm starting round 2 with my 75 gallon aquarium going with high tech planted now that funds aren't as thin even though it'll take me several months to gather all the supplies to get this thing going.

I'm stuck between the T5ho lights and LED's. 

T5 choice would be the 48" AquaticLife Marquis.

The LED choice is either the finnex fugeray 2 or the planted+ 24/7.

The distance to the substrate is roughly 18" +/- 1" (I may add another bag of black diamond before planting) I already have 100 lbs in the tank now so that should be plenty.

I will be using the EI dosing method until I get my feet on the ground with the fertz.

Plant wise I'm still choosing, but I want to include reds, not just greens. 

I'll be injecting co2 with a reactor and I will also have glass tops under the light.

I like the low profile LED fixtures but at the same time I'm still on the fence about which would be best.

Diy has crossed my mind and I have a 6 bulb capable VHO ballast I could use to make my own light but for right now I'd probably want to stick to a ready made fixture since this is my first go into a high tech tank.

Sorry for the long post, I hope that's enough tank info for someone to help me.


Also these aren't my final choices. If something else would work better please let me know. I'd like to keep the total price around or under $250.


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## York1 (Dec 18, 2014)

I had t5ho setup on my 75. 4 bulbs. I had alot of problems controlling algae. I had to cut the light way down and still had problems. 
I now run 2 planted+ 24/7 on max for 8 hours and the plants are looking better every day. The algae problems have gone away almost completely. I think once i get the ferts and CO2 dialed in that will finish off what little algae is left


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## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

The initial cost of LED's is balanced by the fact that t5Ho fixtures use alot of power and replacing bulb is expensive. A ray 2 would work well for high tech. Maybe 2 of them if you want really high light. I use only one on my 55g


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## kinzo (Apr 18, 2013)

i have a finnex fugeray on a mechanical timer. My plants are exploding and it's not very hot or too dim. Also saves electricity! Basically it's dope and you should buy it!

I have a Fluval Edge Spec V with a 20" Finnex Fugeray (mount is stock), link below is to a pic of the bottom of my tank and you can see the amount of lighting it gets and if it's what you are looking for:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/22-planted-nano-tanks/1039105-what-wizardry.html


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## RCfishfreak (Aug 28, 2014)

Thanks for the input guys, would a single ray 2 be enough to grow red plants in a 75 gallon? I'd like to stick to just one fixture if possible since I'm going to base my canopy around the lighting choice I make. I see a lot of people using 2 of these fixtures and I don't have the funds for 2 of then right now. I may add in another bag of black diamond to help take up some space so I'm not fighting for deep water par values. That should add another inch or so ontop of what I have in there now. 

I won't have a lot of red plants but the ones I will have I want then to thrive.


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## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

RCfishfreak said:


> Thanks for the input guys, would a single ray 2 be enough to grow red plants in a 75 gallon? I'd like to stick to just one fixture if possible since I'm going to base my canopy around the lighting choice I make. I see a lot of people using 2 of these fixtures and I don't have the funds for 2 of then right now. I may add in another bag of black diamond to help take up some space so I'm not fighting for deep water par values. That should add another inch or so ontop of what I have in there now.
> 
> I won't have a lot of red plants but the ones I will have I want then to thrive.


One on my 55 is growing everything i want.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

I think you need more substrate anyway. 2 bags in a 75 to me means your substrate isn't thick enough to start with. How many inches of sand is in there now?


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## kinzo (Apr 18, 2013)

I say go with the single LED and buy another later if needed/funds available. Don't forget about CO2 as well...you're gonna need lots of it for your reddies...


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## pinkkiwi1230 (Feb 15, 2016)

Hey I just wanted to say, I got the finnex 24/7+ around a month ago off amazon. After 2 weeks it broke, I got it replaced and now this one has a glitch in the white settings. Once I lower the white levels to a certain spot, it starts to flicker til I go down more.... I know the finnex brand has a good reputation but I think the 24/7 might have some problems. It works but I'm worried it's not going to last year's like the t5 bulbs or other brands of leds. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

T5 fixtures *

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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

I'll go with T5's every time. I've used a lot of different lighting over the years, but it's pretty hard to beat T5's , especially T5 HO's.
Whether you're low tech or high tech, with pressurized CO2, if you're careful with the lighting period (less is better), and careful with the ferts (less is better), is usually works out a-ok ime.


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## RCfishfreak (Aug 28, 2014)

Nlewis, I have no problem adding more substrate if need be. Right now I believe it's about 2 inches deep which for fake plants is fine but I'll probably add another bag to get up closer to 3 inches deep for the live plants. Plus it'll make aquascaping a little easier..

I have a 40# co2 tank and a medical grade regulator waiting to have a post body kit installed. I have a glass inline bubble counter and will be slowly aquitaine everything else over the course of a few months time. The light and plants will be last on the list or I may go ahead and get the light and just keep it safe until I get the plants. 

I'm looking into an auto doser for the fertz since my work schedule sometimes varies and I was thinking maybe a 6 or 7 photocycle at first and work my way up or down from there. 

I found a Ray 2 on ebay for about $200 but I'll look on amazon too. 

I love LED's but I also want my tank to be as evenly covered from front to back as possible. I hate dark spots and deep shadowing in tanks. It drives me nuts.

Thas why I'm stuck between a larger t5ho fixture and low profile LED's.


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## cubequeen (Jun 14, 2012)

York1, the situation you had sounds a lot like my situation now. I'm a little unclear on your answer. Are you saying you switched to LEDs and that caused your algae problems to go away? If so, what kind of LED? Is it all-white LEDs, or do you have a mix of colors?


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## RCfishfreak (Aug 28, 2014)

I've been researching the ray 2 and I like it more and more but my biggest issue with it is the skinyness of it and the fact that I may need to get a second one to help evenly cover the substrate. 

Does anyone have any input on the T5ho fixtures? I'd like to keep my options open to both. Not just LED's.

So far I've decided on adding a second bag of black diamond and the Co2 diffusion method but that's about it.

Also as an idea I'll need to find out what the ballast actually is but I can build a hood to hole up to 6 48 inch shop light tubes but I'll either have all on or all off unless I bought 2 strip lights and gutted them. Honestly I'm probably going to get the finnex ray 2.

There's too many options for lighting with too little specific data and not to mention all the cheap knock off lights that claim they work when they really dont.


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

On a 75 you will need 2 24/7 to make sure you have even par through out the tank. Directly under a 24/7 at 18" you will have about 40 par which is roughly med light but the light/par spread is terrible. If the light is centered you will have about 20 par in the front and back. You won't have the shadows really but you will have a noticeable difference in light intensity from front to back. Having two lights would even this out. I think you would need to spend close to 300$ for two of them which sucks. A good alternative would be t5ho fixture that would provide much more even par because the bulbs aren't a single point focus. If you buy a t5 fixture meant for aquariums be prepared to also pay for it. I'll attach a pic of what I would get. It's a sunblaze 4 bulb t5ho fixture meant for hydroponics that they sell mounting and hanging kits for so you can easily adjust height. Best bang for your buck that you would be able to achieve high or lower lighting with. More options less money.


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## RCfishfreak (Aug 28, 2014)

WillCooper what are the dimensions of that light? 

And has anyone gone with anything from buildmyled.com? I like that you can pick and choose on their stuff. Just with their fixtures were wider to cover the width of the tank better.

I'm going to look at that hydroponics fixture though. I like the looks of it


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## RCfishfreak (Aug 28, 2014)

I've made up my mind to 2 LED fixtures but am still looking into t5 fixtures.. my biggest thing is that where I live there isn't a whole lot on the planted side of things. Most places only have the "make it look pretty" lights that don't have any use for a planted tank.

1. 48" Finnex Ray 2 DS

2. 48" Zetlight ZP-4000


The specifics for the Zetlight are:

98 6500k LED's
21 Blue 465nm-485nm
28 Red 620nm-620nm

This fixture is slightly shorter than 48 inches in length and is only 2.5 inches in width. I forget the height but it's very very slim. There is a controller kit you can get for it that is a timer/ ramper built into one unit. It's only $115 on ebay vs the Ray 2 at closer to $200. I can't find PAR or PUR values for this light as of right now.


As for t5 fixtures I'm stuck on either a 2 or 4 bulb configuration. 

I really like the older AquaticLife fixture, model LF2-48. It's the one with the timer on the front and the legs on the corners. Basically the light that odyssea cloned.

The sun blaze unit is apparently TEKs hydroponics side of things and is a whopping 20k lumens and 216 watts in total. My only gripe about that is that it's either all or nothing when you turn it on. I'm unsure if that's way too much light even though I'll be dosing fertz and injecting co2. 

Is anyone running a 75 gallon tank? What light are you using on it? 

If I were to run T5's how many bulbs would/ should I run at a time? I'm going to start my photoperiod at 6 hours and go from there if need be.

I'm probably over thinking all of this but I can't afford to spend upwards of $200+ and end up with a fixture that's not up to snuff with my needs.


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## Bobbybills (Nov 30, 2015)

@RCfishfreak
I've had T5s on a reef tank and when the bulbs are new, they are good. There were no dimmable units back then with built in controllers like there are now, but the better value is still LED I believe. Without dimming, you hear members having to reduce the photo period to fight algae, but then you are starring at a dark tank either before work or after work, unless you are home during the day. Using a controlled dimmable unit allows you to reduce the high noon intensity but still maintain reduced light for viewing in both AM and PM, simulating sunrise and sunset. Not sure how much the fish and plants appreciate that, but it is more realistic and enjoyable than on/off.


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## RCfishfreak (Aug 28, 2014)

That's what draws me to the LED's is the dimable aspect of them and that they last longer. Plus they're lighter and easier to move when tank maintenance is needed. 

Does anyone have any experience with that zetlight fixture? I've been researching it and haven't found too much yet. I'm literally down to the light and which plants I'll be getting.


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

RCfishfreak said:


> WillCooper what are the dimensions of that light?
> 
> And has anyone gone with anything from buildmyled.com? I like that you can pick and choose on their stuff. Just with their fixtures were wider to cover the width of the tank better.
> 
> I'm going to look at that hydroponics fixture though. I like the looks of it


https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/8...BaseShopping&gclid=CKH79fXM28wCFdKIfgodatQA1g

Keep in mind it's not all or nothing with this. You can remove one or more bulbs to suit your needs. I use leds now but just hate the spread and don't like the look of two fixtures. Dimming is cool but just a feature that gets you the same result as going from 4 to 3 bulbs to 2 if necessary and you can always put them back in when you want higher light. I also like the look of this particular lamp. 

Regarding build my leds; I'm not sure they are still building. I could be wrong but I heard they stopped. I think they are a link on the forums home page and you can read about it there. Fixture info in attachment or link provided.

I just did a little research and found that this light should be at about 90-100 par at 24" from substrate with all four bulbs which is high lighting. If you went with this light I would start with three bulbs and use co2


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## RCfishfreak (Aug 28, 2014)

Alright, after digging around I've decided to build my own LED fixture with a 48" MakersLED heats ink kit.

Currently I'm just trying to decide which LED's to go with and how many I will need. 

It'll cost me more but in the long run ever single component is serviceable/replaceable. If one diode fails I can replace that one component instead of the whole fixture.

I'm currently looking at Cree XL-L2, XP-E2 and Luxeon Rebel Colors. 

My only confusion is the nm range I need to be shooting for and if I should find LED's that are all rated for 3000mA. The XL-L2 are rated at 3000mA and the other 3 are only rated at 1000mA.

I love making my own electronic stuff so this will be a welcome challenge for me and add to the "look what I made" part of keeping a planted tank.

Could anyone help me with the LED selecting part? I have everything else figured out now.


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## f1sleepy (May 1, 2016)

Cree XM L2s are rated for up to 10 watts. When driven at about 2-2.5A they become more efficient when you look at lumen output per dollar then using lesser rated leds. The issue becomes trying to source the proper drivers and power supply to run them at that high of a current, along with managing heat. The benefit is less leds are required.


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## RCfishfreak (Aug 28, 2014)

I'll be using the 5Up Driver Pro. It's 5 drivers in one unit and fits conveniently on to the heating itself. For a standard 75 gallon aquarium how many would you suggest using? I was looking at Cool white and neutral white Xm-l2's and the for the additional RGB I was thinking either XP-e2's or luxeon rebel colors. I'm 99% sure with what I'm going to go with, I found some full kits that have everything I'd need but they're 2 separate assemblies and I'd rather not have to hang them over the tank as I hate leaking light. 

I need help with the number of LED's and the layout of them.


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## RCfishfreak (Aug 28, 2014)

Ok for anyone reading this or looking to help me please read this first! 

Here's is what I'm planning on going with:

48inch makersled heats ink kit.
Storm X LED controller with mounting box.
Coralux Fan Power PWM board.
LDD-6 driver board with 6 DIP sockets accompanied by 6 LDD-1000th drivers connected to the controller via 2 breakout cables.
DS18B20 temperature probe.
Meanwell SE-350-48 powersupply.

The LED's so far (not sure if this is correct or not so please speak up if anything could be changed):

20- XT-E warm white (3000k)
20- XT-E cool white (5000k)
6- XP-E2 red (625nm)
4- XP-E2 green (530nm)
4- XP-E2 royal blue (450nm)

I'm not sure if I could go a better/ cheaper way on the LED's but from my endless search this is what I "THINK" will work. The green is basics just there to maybe help make the tank appear brighter.

I'm very confused by the proper lighting that I should be going with and I hope I'm on the right track. I have about half of a 70 notebook full of nothing but info for LED's and I still don't completely understand what I need to be aiming for. I know the blue light helps with fish colors and plant growth and the red helps the plants produce new growth and to become bushy. I also know that if I plan on having red plants, which I do, I'll need more blue than for just green plants.

Could I go with a lower wattage power supply? 

What I'm aiming for is good lighting for the plants and still have a "bright" tank. I'd like to have enough light to grow various red plants and still have "extra light" so I can play with the storm x mid day settings some. 

I'm good with the electronic side (minus the power supply) and the building side. I'm more hands on instead of just reading and hoping I got it right.

Thanks for any help in advance, hopefully in the next few months I'll be starting to aquire all of thsee components and building my way to a happy planted tank


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Quick advice:
Green is never needed. Substitute cyan for green. Or lime for green. Both are at Steves LEDS..Luxeon products.
"Personally" go all Luxeon. More color consistency.i 
When using reds go for either 660nm or a mix of 660/625..

Don't go w/ certain colors just because they are the only ones available (like no cyan in the CREE series) Defeats the purpose of DIY.

Consider adding some violet to the rb channel..
Don't forget to match the driver to the chips..
You will need smaller LDD's if you use 660nm and violets

Cluster RGB together a bit since RGB = W Any red like, blue like, green like

You want some large chips look to the Vero DEcor line for ww/cw.. High CRI and high output.
You got the heat sink for them..


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## RCfishfreak (Aug 28, 2014)

Thanks for the tips, I'll check them out  as for my current list of LED's (just getting my build list ironed out) I'm at almost $300 for cree LED's. 

And in the interest of knocking down the total price list for LED's I was looking on fleabay and saw all the "cree" leds. I've emailed a few places for samples but haven't heard anything back yet.

As for my color choices I only added the green for my own viewing pleasure but I'll probably take them off the list. I was also looking at going with larger watt chips for the white channels. I've looked at Cree and Luxeon (little more expensive than cree) also looked at bridgelux and the fleabay mystery LED's.


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## RCfishfreak (Aug 28, 2014)

Jeffkrol what do you think the led count ought to be? In my cart right now I have 15 cool whites,15 warm whites, 8 lime, 5 deep red, 5 standard red, 10 royal blue. If that's not right what would you change?


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## RCfishfreak (Aug 28, 2014)

Right now I have 5.4 amps worth of leds and they'll be run on 5 drivers, I'll have an extra slot for another driver if I need more of the whites. The power supply I'll be using is a 48v 400watt 8.3amp. So it'll be plenty big enough incase I need that 6th driver. My total cost right now is $596.72. Obviously I'd like to get that lower so I'm still searching around for lower prices.


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## Bobbybills (Nov 30, 2015)

I cannot comment on Luxeon or Bridgelux, I have all Cree. 12 XM-L2 cool on one channel and 12 XM-L2 warm white on another channel, driven at 2100ma each. I have three other low wattage channels in red/amber, blue and warm whites on LDD drivers for the sunrise and sunset effect, shifting the color to red and yellow at dawn and dusk. If I had to do it over again, I would probably use lower wattage and add more in order to be able to drive everything from LDD instead of the 90Watt drivers that do not dim to 0%

There are so many combinations and so many options for DIY led builds that your head will spin. I would decide if you want 1-ups or 3-ups or arrays and then pick color from there, not the other way around. You can run XM-L2s at lower wattage but that really defeats the purpose. Those LEDs are best used in limited real estate applications like flashlights where the most wattage in the smallest footprint is critical. Using LDD drivers does make the dimming options easier regardless of what mfg or color you decide.


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## RCfishfreak (Aug 28, 2014)

I have everything figured out component wise, was just looking for some input on the number of LED's listed. I see other full kits online that have anywhere between 10 and 24 LED's per side (they're a 2 piece light) for the whites.

I would like to get this price down closer to $500, right now I'm closer to $600. If I can't I can't and I'll just have to go with it but I'd really like it a little lower. But so far everything I have is what I consider bare bones minimum thanks to needing fans and other such things.


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## RCfishfreak (Aug 28, 2014)

I'm down to $539.69. All depends on if the fan controllers I want to use will work how I want them to. Hopefully so, if not I'll go back to the pwm controller from coralux..

Also this is drooping down to 4 of each colors excluding the whites.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

LED's do not save much on wattage. Check what the specs are for your size LED setup. They are using about the same wattage by the time they are powered up to work for growing plants, as T5's, CFL's, etc. But they cost a lot more, for a lot less value and function in my opinion. The only exception is a Kessil LED/fixture. But you still use about the same wattage. 

The 'LED's save on wattage' argument is flawed regarding planted tank level LED's. Currently, the failure rate on LED's is keeping me away from anything but a Kessil. But, alas, I cannot afford them yet.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

AWolf said:


> LED's do not save much on wattage.



A lot of this is design dependent.. Current small smd diodes are pushing 200lumens/watt..

T5/8/mh are in the pretty much static 100 lumens/watt on a good day..
Add a directionality factor and constant current drive (no resistor losses) and LED can easily put 2x the amount of photons/watt on any set up.. BUT it takes 
some skill..
Many older PAR measurements have shown LED to beat T5's at an almost 2x level watt per watt..
THAT said, these constant voltage arrays have an inherent loss due to the terminating resistors.. And things using the older "Bridgelux" type chips w/ sometimes at best 50L/w well those can be parity q/ t5/8 ect..

Any modern LED w/ small SMD .5W resistors are more than likely pushing the 100L/watt efficiency and have the added directional factor.. 

Just stuff:
cheap ebay DIY LED - Page 2 - Orchid Board - Most Complete Orchid Forum on the web !


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

jeffkrol said:


> A lot of this is design dependent.. Current small smd diodes are pushing 200lumens/watt..
> 
> T5/8/mh are in the pretty much static 100 lumens/watt on a good day..
> Add a directionality factor and constant current drive (no resistor losses) and LED can easily put 2x the amount of photons/watt on any set up.. BUT it takes
> ...


Very true. I think we all have to get over the initial learning curve using LED's. They are here to stay. That extra photon push can really cause algae issues in my experience. Ferts, CO2, light timing, etc., all needs to be adjusted for LED's. But that is true for all lighting scenarios. I really want to try the Kessil LED. Of everything available, it appears to be the highest quality LED available for Aquariums...and the colors are incredible.


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## RCfishfreak (Aug 28, 2014)

I'm going to go with the slim makers heatsink, I'll use some aluminum stock bolted to the top channel and use nylon threaded rod with nuts to hold the driver board above the heatsink and some more aluminum stock to hold the controller box so everything is easy to get to. It would be so much easier if I had a big piece of it in front of me though. It's only a $75 difference between the slim and the original (I like the look of it over the slim) I'll also be running 5 channels on a 6 driver board (saving room for future expansion).

As for the LED's I think while I'm getting used to the light I'll just keep a few simple plants until I get all the bugs worked out of the systems and then I'll move up to more demanding plants. That way if I screw up it won't be a huge wave of dead plants, just some very common very hardy plants.


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## Bobbybills (Nov 30, 2015)

RCfishfreak said:


> I'm going to go with the slim makers heatsink


Forgot to mention I have the classic Makers Heat sink, great product. T-slots essential, allows movement of LEDs, just put in a few extra nuts in each channel so that you don't have to unbolt an entire side just to get one more LED in.

Check to see if the slim model has 1/4" rod slots for mounting unless you are going to hang with chain or just lay on top of a glass canopy.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

AWolf said:


> and the colors are incredible.


Animated GIF of the 2 channel freshwater Kessil..








http://www.kessil.com/images/aquarium/product/Freshwater/Freshwater_A160_img01.gif

Kessil LED Lights

Depending on taste and goal the spectrum is not the "best" whatever that may be..


Fluval for comparison..


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

jeffkrol said:


> Animated GIF of the 2 channel freshwater Kessil..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good stuff. I like the graph and haven't considered Fluval LED's.


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## RCfishfreak (Aug 28, 2014)

Bobbybills, I keep changing my mind between the 2. It's going to be directly on top of the tank but with the original if I ever build a canopy it'll be easier to mount. Plus I like that the fans are hidden instead of an unshrouded fan like on the slim model. It just looks ugly with those fans. I'm going to order the power supply and a soldering iron kit tomorrow (scored a huge deal on the power supply. It's a 400watt 8.3amp unit) for $35 it's a Chinese/ Taiwan unit and I'm going to build a case for it or maybe just mount it to the inside wall of my stand on some rubber feet. And as for the driver board I'm going to mount it over a fan to pull any heat away from it (not sure how warm these drivers are going to get). I'm excited for this, but just not liking the price. Oh well, it'll be ordered in stages anyways so it shouldn't be too painful for me

And does anyone have a current working coupon for ledsupply, stevesleds, or coralux? Any little bit I can save would surely help and be greatly appreciated!


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

RCfishfreak said:


> And does anyone have a current working coupon for ledsupply, stevesleds, or coralux? Any little bit I can save would surely help and be greatly appreciated!


If you want to go a bit off mainstream do a search for "
*LUXEON Rebel"*

in "the worlds marketplace"
At least for warm white.. cool white and royal blue..
Had a lot of luck w/ these as opposed to the more common "Bridgelux" stars..
They are about 1/3 the price of any other normal retail Luxeons..


261840128612
231530946467

Ldd-s run quite cool..Only time I've heard any concerns is w/ small strings (say 6V and 48V ps's) and large ps's and these weren't even that warm


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## R|M|D Photography (Apr 9, 2016)

I absolutely love the Kessil's, The color is amazing, but the shimmer is unreal! That's one of my favorite things about my tank! The plants under the Kessils at the local shops grow like mad. You have to keep in mind, Kessil is a lab horticulture lighting company, growing plants is what they know, they were started by a plant biologist, a computer scientist and a physicist. Aquarium lighting is just a natural branch off of the lab horticulture business. And they are the only company that's developed and making their LED's 100% in house. 

Here is a video mainly showing the shimmer in my tank. The tank was just setup so don't expect much on color and plants. I have a lot of tannins in the water from my giant piece of driftwood. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0FYwhP7lU8


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

vs









Ignoring for a moment the Kessil "grow light" has practically zero green.. what else is "wrong" w/ this picture?

http://www.kessil.com/horticulture/H380.php

I'd certainly be more inclined to give Kessil a bit more leeway "if" they actually posed some specifics such as CRI (important to us) and PAR measurements (important to plants)
I find "high tech" companies that don't post basic info to be "suspect" of mostly smoke and mirrors.. 
I more than welcome to be proven wrong.........


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

jeffkrol said:


> vs
> 
> 
> Ignoring for a moment the Kessil "grow light" has practically zero green.. what else is "wrong" w/ this picture?
> ...


I see about the same green in both graphs, in fact, it looks like the kessil can dial in a bit more green to yellow than fluval? Am I wrong? The Kessil has less red, more blue... no doubt. I should think it would be the other way around. ? So the fluval graph looks better in that it has more red. I'll definitely check those out. I prefer more red than blue for aesthetics. But I'd love to see these two lights side by side in person. Kessil still has a broader spectrum by what I can see on the graph for green and yellow. 
CORRECTION: THESE are both Kessil graphs. Now I'm confused.

Regarding PAR: I'm reading where PAR is not measurable on Kessils. Weird. But I am also reading that it doesn't seem to matter, because if you dial a Kessil all the way up, you will fry your plants.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Any "white" led is high in green..It is just the proportions of blue/red that determines the color temp. It is the overall spectrum components vs "swatch" fidelity against a standard that produces CRI.
Kessil grow lights have no green phosphors and look to use just 2 wavelengths of monochrome chips for each "blue" or "red" channel..
My biggest "beef" (well not just Kessil) is the high k output and limited range (6000-9000K) and the "stark" white it generally produces..
Granted, color is a personal choice and good 6000k diodes can be pretty impressive, unless one really looks closely..

Point is w/ their tech Kessil, in my mind, can do a LOT better in their fw light but that is their choice and I feel it is based more on
marketing than facts...

both lights "miss" the cyan band as well.. Subtile differences in shades of green are muted over to one color so neither is "perfect"..

Want "perfection" go w/ this.. 









http://www.yujiintl.com/high-cri-led-lighting

to reiterate this a bit. Kessil "tech" is impressive but their choice of phosphors/spectrum for FRESHwater is really lacking in MY mind..and they can (as seen by their stage lighting division) be a lot better..
doesn't mean they don't look good nor can't "grow stuff" but it is the "little bits" that matter to some.


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## Cmeister (Jul 5, 2009)

jeffkrol said:


> A lot of this is design dependent.. Current small smd diodes are pushing 200lumens/watt..


Jeff, consumer Accessable LED's are pushing, at best, 150 Lumens / watt. Typically around 100 lumens per watt. Lumens in and of themselves are a meaningless term when it comes to aquariums.... because a lumen is based on the 'brightness' our eye sees, not the light output from the LED. These may seem one and in the same, but they are not.....

Also, the above spectral distribution involves the production of a meaningful amount of light 400nm or lower. That is UVA range, dangerous to one's eyes..... Eye health > plant health, right everyone?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Cmeister said:


> Jeff, consumer Accessable LED's are pushing, at best, 150 Lumens / watt. Typically around 100 lumens per watt. Lumens in and of themselves are a meaningless term when it comes to aquariums.... because a lumen is based on the 'brightness' our eye sees, not the light output from the LED. These may seem one and in the same, but they are not.....
> 
> Also, the above spectral distribution involves the production of a meaningful amount of light 400nm or lower. That is UVA range, dangerous to one's eyes..... Eye health > plant health, right everyone?



The base violet emitter in a Yuji is 400-ish nm.. Not really "UV" and has a fairly narrow spread.
Not much different than a cf..w ZERO emissions in the 365nm UV range..
LED's are much more directional also so less "spill" sideways and into your eyes..









Old news.. Samsung is up to 200l/watt. 
http://www.samsung.com/global/business/led/support/news-events/news-detail?contentsId=181
"Best" cfl ect can do is slightly north of 100l/w

Yes, "lumens" are a poor PAR metric but, w/ some understanding are a measurement of gross output.. If" it is all you got ..well better than nothing
As to efficiency.. give it time..











not "dismissing" your concerns. some have the same issues w/ the normal "blue base" wavelength of white leds.
http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/122-a81/



> However, the retinas of rats exposed to either blue or cool white9 LED light showed evidence of retinal damage and cell death after 9 days of exposure. Although rats exposed to cool or warm white10 CFL lights also showed some evidence of damage relative to unexposed controls, in general differences were much less pronounced than those observed in the LED-exposed rats. The authors suggest the observed injuries may have been a consequence of oxidative stress from reactive oxygen species that were generated in retinal tissue.


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## RCfishfreak (Aug 28, 2014)

Right now I'm at 15 Luxeon ES neutral whites and 18 warm whites. Would this be a good starting point for a 75 gallon tank? This whole thread has gotten off track and gotten me severely confused. I'm attracted to the "bulk" leds on ebay but they're a lower mA rating which means I'll need to run more channels to have the same output as less higher quality leds. I've about filled up a 70 page notebook from researching specs and choosing something to only scrap it and pick something else. Does anyone on here have a similarly sized tank that I could get the build plan on so I could have an actual starting point? This is getting more frustrating than its worth and quite irritating not being able to find what I need.

And please if you're going to post, make sure it's relevant to my thread. All the stuff about the kessil lights and other such info could've been posted somewhere else as it's of no help to me.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

In post 41, Jeffkrol showed two graphs, Kessil vs Fluval. But it turns out that both of those graphs were Kessil. Am I wrong? Using Kessil graphs to speak about Fluval would be bad.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

RCfishfreak said:


> Right now I'm at 15 Luxeon ES neutral whites and 18 warm whites. Would this be a good starting point for a 75 gallon tank? This whole thread has gotten off track and gotten me severely confused. I'm attracted to the "bulk" leds on ebay but they're a lower mA rating which means I'll need to run more channels to have the same output as less higher quality leds. I've about filled up a 70 page notebook from researching specs and choosing something to only scrap it and pick something else. Does anyone on here have a similarly sized tank that I could get the build plan on so I could have an actual starting point? This is getting more frustrating than its worth and quite irritating not being able to find what I need.
> 
> And please if you're going to post, make sure it's relevant to my thread. All the stuff about the kessil lights and other such info could've been posted somewhere else as it's of no help to me.



Well first you need to start w/ an idea of what your "main" tone will be. That will determine the base proportions of the main emitters (whites)
Say you like a fairly neutral tone..
Go w/ 2 cool white to every one warm white (6500 + 6500 + 3500/3 = 5500 K 

Your red/cyan/blue will just be "fill" colors..

Start w/ (most people should cover their ears at this point) 1/w led per gallon and add according to future or present demands for high light 

consider the "normal" 2.5" on center spacing and keep in mind your rows (plan on the 2 "outside" rows being the whites..
need a fair spread due to the width of your tank.
To calculate this you need to know what height you want it at.. or a range..

since most 3W led are "lensed" at 120 degrees.. 

At 19" f/b the 2 outer rows should be 4" apart if you are 4" off the water line. If you decide to lens the LED's at say 90 degrees all the geometry changes but your depth penetration improves w/ your deeper tank..
8" apart at 4" off the water line.

I suggest skipping optics and just increasing output..

so to start 24 cool white and 12 ww..


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

AWolf said:


> In post 41, Jeffkrol showed two graphs, Kessil vs Fluval. But it turns out that both of those graphs were Kessil. Am I wrong? Using Kessil graphs to speak about Fluval would be bad.


You are missing my point Just saying Kessil understands the "need" for red unlike their fw spectrum


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

jeffkrol said:


> You are missing my point Just saying Kessil understands the "need" for red unlike their fw spectrum


So you agree that this is a good spectrum. It is a great spectrum.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Parts list:
eek bay
10 RB Luxeon Rebels. $11.88
30 cool white lr $35.99
20 ww $20.00
all 1000mA driver max...)
steves
4 luxeon cyan ($10 on sale at steves.) (1000mA driver max)
4 deep red steves $11 (700mA driver max)

Diodes $88
Ldd per channel or every 12 diodes:
6x $8

$96..

48v ps 5A $51
SP-240-48: Mean Well: Power Supplies & Wall Adapters

.....running total... $147
and controller 

bluefish mini..
$100
https://aquarium-led-controller.com/product/bluefish-mini-ldd-controller/

driver board from steves..
LDD Driver Board
$12
*
Total $259.......*.


heat sink and asst board and parts..
Extra diodes for later..

Bump:


AWolf said:


> So you agree that this is a good spectrum. It is a great spectrum.


Personally the Fluval is about the best out there as to balance and color..


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## RCfishfreak (Aug 28, 2014)

Instead of mixing cool whites with warm whites what if I went with just neutral whites?
Say for example what if I went with just 30 Luxeon Rebel ES neutral whites? They're 3v and 5000k and according to steves sight they have a slightly yellow color but have a very broad spectrum. And looking at the chart for that series they produce better light than the cool white and warm white.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

RCfishfreak said:


> Instead of mixing cool whites with warm whites what if I went with just neutral whites?


depends what "color" you like.. 
Lets say 5000k and 3500k in a 2:1 ratio
And ignoring "colors" since they are somewhat a wash as to k shift.

so 4500k on average w/ all whites at 100% output (or any equal)
Picture this, shutting off all "colors" and running just whites your "range" is 5000-3500K..
At 5000k all 3500k's are off.. losing 1/3 of your output.
Using 6500k/3500k you hit 5000k (well 5500K) w/ all diodes at 100%
And you can shift from 6500k to 3500k..

Granted you can warm and cool w/ red/blues but there output contribution is much smaller..

As I said, it depends on ind. taste. If one likes the look of 6500k tanks then the "spread" would need to be wider (assuming you want a low k sunrise..) So 80000k/3500k in a ratio of 2:1 will approx. presto...6500k.

I don't know what yo like personally. so pick what you think is a good plan.

I've used all sorts of ratios of cw/ww and to be honest none is "perfect"..and I keep evolving:

Early iteration of the LED for the 40b. 50/50 3500/6500k (well cheated here a bit since I threw in a few 6500k in the rb channel so not quite 1:1) and cyan/rb/660red leds


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## RCfishfreak (Aug 28, 2014)

Jeffkrol that looks really good, I think I'll go with cool whites and neutral whites and see how that does. I'd like the tank to be a bit more white than yellow


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

RCfishfreak said:


> Jeffkrol that looks really good, I think I'll go with cool whites and neutral whites and see how that does. I'd like the tank to be a bit more white than yellow


Yea that is a good plan.. 
you can add red to the neutral white ramp up for sunrise/sunset if you so prefer..
Using cool white and red doesn't quite give it that morning "glow" being short in yellow's...


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## RCfishfreak (Aug 28, 2014)

Sounds good, I think I have everything figured out parts wise


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## RCfishfreak (Aug 28, 2014)

Well it's been a long time since I started this thread but $205 later and multiple projects later I have a 4ft long original MakersLED heatsink sitting beside my tank. It's gorgeous! 

Thanks to jeffkrol for the help and input about LED's, I've been continuing my research since I first posted and I haven't strayed to far from what was suggested. Mainly just hunting for good LED's on fleabay and have fin ally found some I'm comfortable getting. I have 4 cyans from rapid coming via ups tomorrow along with my needle valve and clippard solenoid and a few other things so tomorrow I'll be building my post body kit and buying wire for the light.


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