# My Planted Shrimp Tank Method/theory (almost no WC)



## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Hello all,

I just wanted to share my humble experience and I hope to learn more and more, most I consider knowledge but there may be some belief mixed in. There is plenty of examples of shrimp keeping/breeding out there, this is just mine and doesn't negate other methods nor I pretend to present this info as "the right way to do it".

*This thread refers to my 30 gallon main tank with medium light, pressurized CO2 24/7 and lean Ferts.

**got destroyed when I was away by my housemate:icon_evil, so this is history.

Disclaimer: I want to say that there is not much evidence of CO2 24/7 been better for cardinias vs timed, I do it just because some successful shrimp keepers/breeders do it, its my belief. Same with how much ferts and WC. This is my personal approach.

This tank had a LOT of surface agitation, thus very good oxygenation/atmospheric gas exchange 24/7.

*It's between 65-70F* so its colder than a tropical planted tank and is PH 5.6, very acidic. _I believe _colder water favors the retention of CO2/O2 and acidic PH encourages photosynthesis, therefore I can get away with injecting little CO2 in comparison with a hotter/alkaline tank with the same light. Seems like Algae is also kept easier under control in a colder tank.










*plants:*
blyxa japonica
lobelia cardinalis
assorted mosses
anubias nana petite
rotala vietnam
rotala mexicana
hygrophilia pinnatifida
ALTERNANTHERA REINECKII
Myriophyllum matogrossense
hydrocotyle verticillata
Ludwigia x lacustris
Hygroryza aristata
cryptocoryne balansae
Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Tropica'
Limnophila Mini

The family shot:









I kept CRS SS, CBS SSS, OEBTs and blue velvets. CRS and CBS were breeding, I had a bunch of babies but OEBTs and neos were not I think because of the low PH (5.5)


**(I also have a 6gallon almost non dosing, non co2 which has a different method that includes more often WC)**



Here is the intro:

Once upon a time.... when I had a "_planted tropical fish tank_"....













I was totally clueless about how I was keeping my tank lush as I was just following directions from my favorite LFS to dose and plant. Yes, I was buying liquid ferts from them. One day, the guy who always helped me left that LFS and had to deal with a new guy. He tried pushing a new set of ferts and a HO light on me, when I heard the price, I got a bit skeptical and I ended up buying the light bulbs only. Things went really wrong then, algae wrong. I came back for the ferts and I aldo got some puffers... and things got super really wrong then, mega algae bloom wrong. And then, just then I started searching for help online.

This is how I started here:









I met The Planted Tank forum and SFBAAPS!! yay! people here helped me out figure that my co2 had run out....DOH! lol!  ...at the same time some gurus like Hoppy, Plantbrain, Youjettisonme, Speedie, Ralph G. and others helped me realize that I needed to know more about what in the heck was in my water and what and why I was dosing ferts. The last two got me into shrimp tho!

The adventure began.

Here is the thing:

I started by buying dry ferts and trying PPSpro (perpetual preservation system) as it was in grams and allowed me (IMO) to calculate and understand better what I was dosing... I ended up just shooting for Estimative Index (Tom's EI) recommended ppm levels and I cranked the co2 to the max, mainly after understanding the law of the minimum (It states that growth is controlled not by the total amount of resources available, but by the scarcest resource (limiting factor).)

Once I got rid of all limiting factors I started to pay attn to my testings before and after every fertilization. There was an obvious pattern of consumption and build up. It was a simple subtraction. For example: I had 20ppm of NO3 to start and I had only 5 left. Therefore I assumed that if I was using 15ppm of NO3, then I should dose that only.I did the same calculation with everything else. And If I wanted to use less (have less concentration in the water column) then I needed to have less light. I shortened the photo-period and sure enough the consumption diminished, therefore I had more buildup.

I played around with this for a while, in the meantime I always had my co2 all the way up, so that wasn't the limiting factor (because is the most important) without co2 plants cant use the available nutrients, algae can. Same with ant other leftover from any other limiting factor. When I played around dosing very lean there was plenty of light and plenty of CO2, instead of getting mostly algae, I would get mostly plant deficiencies, this showed me how important is co2 in a planted tank. 

Side note: Around this time I started getting very interested in only shrimp tanks, I bought an established 6 gallon with a nice Neocardinia colony from Youjettisonme that came with a lot of teachings and wise advice.:thumbsup:

This is how it ended up after all those experiments, before I decided to convert it to an only shrimp tank set up:










The main thing, IME was to keep the proportions. PMDD (poor man's daily drops) and PPSpro had it already figured out. As i had already mixed PPSpro solutions, I kept using that.

I ended up dosing to have only about 5ppm of NO3 in the water as I planned to keep High Grade Shrimp (cardinias) and they are nitrate, nitrite and ammonia sensitive (I believe what I'm told here). So I dose PPS pro daily to keep those values at the with the least CO2 possible. To reach that I did the following:

Around 04-10-12 I re-started the tank with inert substrate, planted it heavily and set the timer for 10hr light. Full Co2. Filter was already cycled for about... 8yrs (lol) and I added a new huge canister that would house more nitro bacteria. All plants were covered in biofilm as well as the back glass of the tank as scraped the other 3 (not sure if scraping the glass kills its biofilm).

This is how it looked fresh right after shrimptank set up:










I started dosing as mentioned above to have 5ppm of NO3 spread on 7 days, that means like 0.7 a day and I used this calculator to figure that (http://calc.petalphile.com/). I dose daily because I learned and believe that sensitive shrimp prefer stable conditions and dosing daily is easier on their lil tails.

I waited until I started seen the deficiencies to start I shortening the photoperiod. This would slow down the tank metabolism and the nutrient deficiencies will improve in theory. Once it was all good (8hrs), I started lowering the co2 until I got to 1 bubble per 3 sec, and then like several months later some GSA in my spraybar, so I increased to 1bps, that stopped it.

note: BPS is not a measure that works the same in all tanks it is a very specific of a single tank arbitrary way to eyeball how much co2 is going into the tank. Also, measuring CO2 by using the PH/KH chart is also a pretty inaccurate way to adjust co2, the best way is knowing your plant/algae response

The whole figuring out this set up's right metabolism to keep my water quality stable took me about two months since i started this Planted Shrimp Tank, which is what I was gonna wait anyways before bringing in the shrimpanzes.

I knew that I wanted to keep my TDS low, under 200. I decided to change water at 170-200tds. Guess what! I never reached that. If I hadn't cleaned my canister then I would be in month #5 without a WC, and I probably will have several months ahead without the need for a WC. 

The whole idea is that plants are another filter that keep the water quality very well. Therefore very few to no water changes are needed In this theory.... it would not be possible with few plants and mostly moss tho, in theory/method...

Another way to look at this is: If I start with DI water, zero TDS, and I start adding the nutrients I want to have in ppms, I would end up with about 130pmm total maximum. The tank was always under 150 TDS, I had to buy mosura TDS UP to reach 160-170TDS for my OEBTs. 

How come I dont have to change water? well, water evaporates pure so I only top off with DI water wich is pure. toping off with tap adds buildup that doesnt evaporate. Calcium/magnesium doesnt evaporate and is used just a lil bit by the plants and bugs so can be considered a constant once is there. Nutrients are consumed by the plants and If i see that my TDS is marking a bit high, I skip dosing a couple of days and test again. Usually that brings it down like 5ppm. Feeding is lean with shrimp like every other day about half a pea size in food that is designed to not foul the water quality. I trim the plants once or twice a month, that takes out waste / nutrients out of the water in the form of a plant. And finally I overfilter the tank, I have two canisters running a DIY UGF and a big sponge in their intakes. 










*I don't know about the UGF lasting forever*. I won't last forever myself! Lol!  I may have to start over in 2-3 years because i will move out for sure and I hope that it would work that long. The substrate is akadama drl large grain (1") in the bottom 3 inches and small grain (1/4") from 1" to 3" which makes the whole thing 4" to 6"

One thing that is key in this kind of set up is to know that is not a plant farm. Plants grow slow or just get stuck and look good but there is not much happening. For example blyxa doesnt grow but roots ok and stays the same. In the other hand red cabomba for example didnt do good at all but I'm not sure if the PH was the main reason for it to fade away. PH is 5.5ish in this tank. So I recommend to buy plants that are already looking good because they may grow really slow and it will take time to fill up spaces in between. Plant tight. 


There is a few things I forgot to mention, I will just point them out here:

• nutrient consumption varies a bit, I assume it's because of the plant growth/mass, some deaths or rotting stuff.
*• I created a LOT of surface agitation with the spray bar, no splashing tho. I think this is critical with co2 injection 24/7.*
• You can't see it in the picture but I have at least 1/3 of the surface covered by floating plants, shrimps hang out a lot there nibbling in their roots.
• I'm generous with Indian almond leaves.
• I feed them every other day alternating 13 different high end shrimp foods and fresh blanched organic zuchini/spinach.

See my surface agitation and floaters:
http://youtu.be/d1wmeaC4P0c

*I recommend the following reading/links:

-(post #1) as a must for all people starting in the hobby of shrimp keeping by Youjettisonme*: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=176557

*-Setting up a Shrimp tank and DIY UGF (like mine) by Mordalphus *: http://aquarliam.com/2012/02/setting-up-a-shrimp-tank/

-*CO2: why some tanks might need more CO2 than others and why some folks gas their fish by Tom Barr*: http://www.barrreport.com/showthrea...than-others-and-why-some-folks-gas-their-fish

-*Dosing fertilizers with Freshwater Shrimp, by Ryan wood @ Planet Inverts*: http://www.planetinverts.com/Dosing Fertilizers with Shrimp.html

*Other examples of high grade cardinias in planted tanks with ferts and co2:*
*
Plantbrain*: http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/5068-EI-dosing-with-Crystal-Red-shrimp-over-a-year

* Youjettisonme*: http://plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=167472

*YU CRS CENTER (top notch Taiwanese breeders)*: http://youtu.be/sVjYLHlOQqM

En español(Chile): http://www.acuaristas.cl/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=93366

Trusted Sources:

*My Shrimp Dealer, Speedie: * http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=161792&highlight=speedie+shrimp

*MY Shrimp Food/suplements Dealer, H4n*: http://mail.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=183859

*MY Plant Dealers, H4n and Plantbrain*: http://mail.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=152439

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/member.php?tab=visitor_messaging&u=1333&page=3

* My Fertilizer Dealers, GLA*: http://greenleafaquariums.com/aquarium-fertilizer.html

:bounce:

••••*Appendix 1, A deeper explanation on stable TDS*••••

"no water changes? What?"

-USING A TDS METER.

This is the most important tool, without it is a guessing game and this is like an exact Science kinda game.

I need to measure total dissolved solids every day or two when the tank is running at "idle". Without this info it's impossible to determine if the method is working or not.

Simple example: 
One gallon of zero TDS water.

I need ~120ppm of GH (6dGh) for the inverts, and I know that to reach that we need to add GH booster. The booster is not just GH so it would probably bring the TDS to 140-150 depending on the brand. 

Now I have clean water with enough GH at 150TDS. (120ppm of calcium + magnesium and other stuff)

I allow ~10-20tds(ppm) to fit all nutrients, micros and macros. (very exaggerated) .

Now i have ~ 170 TDS maximum for clean nutritious water. 

I can set up a maximum tolerance of 200 TDS (which is pretty conservative) and skip/lower dosing when the TDS are above 180TDS. 

A few days ago I reached 185 TDS, I've stopped dosing and now after 3 days I'm back at 180 TDS and I hope to get to 175 TDS soon.


- INERT SUBSTRATE. 

While having an active substrate is tempting, at least in this case, I choose to use an inert substrate for more accuracy when measuring how much does this tank "eat".

The nutrients in an active substrate slowly deplete, making it difficult to dose always the same because this inconsistency.

-MEDIUM TO HIGH LIGHT AND CO2.

I have tried doing this with non co2 tanks and it seems to be impossible to me to handle a nutrient buildup of some sort, even when skipping ferts.

A quicker metabolism, as with more light intensity and co2 injection, allows quicker consumption of nutrients, therefore it's easier to dose accordingly to the bioload and the plant consumption.

-DRY FERTILIZERS.

Commercial brands are not going to disclose their mixes. Figuring out how to dose with seachem or Ada liquid fertilizers for this purpose would be very challenging.
Dry dosing is more customizable, with the help of a number of online calculators i can make my own solutions... Literally, but pps-pro or pmdd work fine as well for me.

-LEAN TO NO LIVESTOCK.

The advantage to this is the control over waste and nitrogen compounds. 

I can always add more kno3 for my plant needs but the only way to dilute a buildup would be to change water thus making no sense with the method. 

Inverts is the way to go to start doing this.

-GOOD FILTRATION.

The whole point on using filters is to improve water quality, by over filtering a tank with this method we are just making it easier as the water won't get stagnate, there would be no scum pockets/film, better co2 distribution and very good oxygenation if a spray bar is used to move the surface.

-HEAVILY PLANTED from day one.

I don't want to give algae a chance. 

More plants will be able to process more nutrients/waste and therefore better water quality. A lot of the beneficial bacteria (biofilm) is already in the plants.

NO TAP WATER!

Tap water has stuff in it, maybe good if im changing water but not in this case. Every time i top off with tap, i add TDS to the tank. 

It's a must to use deionized (zero tds)
or at least RO water.

Blank canvas. Same as substrate.

••••*Appendix 2, about short photoperiod*••••

"4 hrs light? What?? 2on,3off,2on,17off??"


Been that light is the most important driving force in dictating the "metabolism" of a tank, adjusting it will dictate what method can/should be applied. 

I'm convinced that same plants could be grown with less intense light with a longer photoperiod and maybe less nutrients/co2.

I have powerful lights in this tank, 2x T5HO 22" (~50PAR @ substrate level). If I have a longer photoperiod I would need more concentration of available nutrients and co2. This conflicts with what _is believed_ to be good for cardinias shrimp. 

So, for the plants to process the available nutrients without a higher concentration of co2 I need a shorter photoperiod with this lights. If I want a longer photoperiod, I will need more co2 (or raise the fixture which would look ugly) to outcompete algae. Nutrients will be processed either way, it's just a matter of who has better conditions, plants or algae.

The general consensus is that algae issues are a consequence of lack of co2. From my point of view is caused by excess of light, therefore the need for more co2. 

BBA tells me: "hey! Got to much light going on!"

As I can't (or don't want) dose more co2, I must reduce the amount of light. And as I don't want to raise the light fixture to reduce its intensity, then I must shorten the photoperiod.

I hope this is clear enough.


••••••


I think that is all I wanted to share for now, I'll keep adding.... as I said before most of it is stuff I learned and some is stuff I believe. I may be leaving things out or unclear but I will be happy to fix that. Please don't take this as a PRO guide, is just a synthesis of my journal. Just one guy with a couple of tanks experience.

Does all of this make sense? If there is assumptions I made into beliefs, I would love to learn more so please don't hesitate to teach me something new, I'm just a passionate newbie and "Ego is not your Amigo".


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## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

Very thorough and well written.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Thank you Kiran, I just saw some typos so I will correct them later. Keep in mind that English is my second language  lol!


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## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

Haha, I wouldn't even know it!


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## zdnet (Aug 13, 2010)

pejerrey said:


> How come I dont have to change water? well, water evaporates pure so I only top off with DI water wich is pure. toping off with tap adds buildup that doesnt evaporate. Calcium/magnesium doesnt evaporate and is used just a lil bit by the plants and bugs so can be considered a constant once is there. Nutrients are consumed by the plants and If i see that my TDS is marking a bit high, I skip dosing a couple of days and test again. Usually that brings it down like 5ppm. Feeding is lean with shrimp like every other day about half a pea size in food that is designed to not foul the water quality. I trim the plants once or twice a month, that takes out waste / nutrients out of the water in the form of a plant.


I like the idea that you do not have to change water. And your explanation makes sense. 




pejerrey said:


> And finally I overfilter the tank, I have two canisters running a DIY UGF and a big sponge in their intakes.


Can you keep your DIY UGF running forever without have to tear it down for cleaning? 

BTW, how did you create your DIY UGF?


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## radioman (Oct 29, 2007)

+1 with what Kiran said. I like how it is written to teach others but also gives examples and first hand experience.


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## zoony (Jul 7, 2012)

Nice write up, but I'm still a bit skeptical about planting shrimp.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Thanks guys, I forgot to add that I keep CRS SS, CBS SSS, OEBTs and blue velvets(neos). 
CRS and CBS are breeding, bunch of babies! 
OEBTs and neos are not and I assume it is because the ph is 5.5.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Oh I don't know about the UGF lasting forever. I may have to start over in 2-3 years because i will move out for sure and I hope that it would work that long. The substrate is akadama drl large grain (1") in the bottom 3 inches and small grain (1/4") from 1" to 3" which makes the whole thing 4" to 6"

I followed Liam's instructions to make it out of PVC pipes. I made a "square 8" shaped loop to help prevent clogging from a dead end.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

The whole idea is that plants are another filter that keep the water quality very well. Therefore very few to no water changes are needed In this theory/method.


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## sergio sinay (Nov 12, 2011)

@pejerrey what is your native language?


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Spanish from Chile, castellano. Why?


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## sergio sinay (Nov 12, 2011)

Oh cool! My native lenguage is spanish too. I. Will send you a message : )


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

There is a few things I forgot to mention, I will edit the first post soon:
• nutrient consumption varies a bit, I assume it's because of the plant growth/mass, some deaths or rotting stuff.
• I created a LOT of surface agitation with the spray bar, no splashing tho. I think this is critical with co2 injection 24/7.
• You can't see it in the picture but I have at least 1/3 of the surface covered by floating plants, shrimps hang out a lot there nibbling in their roots.
• I'm generous with Indian almond leaves.
• I feed them every other day alternating 13 different high end shrimp foods and fresh blanched organic zuchini/spinach.


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## InannaMoon (Jun 3, 2012)

Love it! I'm looking at starting a shrimp tank so I love reading about other peoples' experiences with them!!


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

InannaMoon said:


> Love it! I'm looking at starting a shrimp tank so I love reading about other peoples' experiences with them!!


 I hope is somewhat helpful.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

So why no go whole hog and not use Excel or CO2 at all? 
Then you do not even dose.

You just feed.

I'd say the CO2/Excel stuff in far more detrimental than the dosing.
I had 10 to 20X more brood production in a non CO2 enriched system than a CO2 enriched system. Others have reported similar brood production differences.
That's not small potatoes. 

I've yet to find any issue with NO3 or dosing and shrimp over the last few years I've had a wide range of shrimp. Shrimp will respond to water changes with a molt, but lower light, sediment based ferts, wood/tannins etc, then CO2 is easy and with good current= good O2, you can easily get away, at least most can, with once a month water changes or longer.

So simply slowing things down with light, makes CO2 and algae issues much easier and extends the water change much better than testing and dosing daily. Or use low light + non CO2..then you are down to fish and shrimp waste being able to supply most of the plant needs.

All methods grow plants, the difference is at what rate.
All methods are constrained by Liebig's Law as well, so we can limited via nutrients, or CO2 or light or balance all 3.......to get the desired level of routine for our goal. It is more holistic to approach this from the big three, rather than just one facet and would yield a more robust method, since the goal here is stability.
Testing can help if you are doing it just a bit or to reduce the dosing/WC scheduling.... but needs done well, adding the CO2/light into this mix will make that more robust and easier to apply.

I try to tell folks the virtues of non CO2 tank methods, so does Diana Walstad, but folks love the dope: CO2 gas :icon_cool

I change the water on my 70 Gal about once a month now that the grass filled in. I dose about 2x a week. About 1/4 EI, less I get diatoms and brown algae, more, I'll need to do more water changes. I can eyeball the plants and algae to know when to dose, but over the years of keeping plants etc, these end up being the best test kits there are.

Try non CO2 and see how the brood production does for you.
It's night and day for me and I saw it with several types of shrimp, not just Fires or CRS.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Here's a CPVC grid I made about 25 -30 years ago:



















If you run these reverse flow, they will never clog in a planted tank or a fine sand tank.

A small burp hole is added near the top of the surface for the incoming prefiltered water.


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## fusiongt (Nov 7, 2011)

I'm interested to see your results. I would also like another test afterwards to see if 1-2 water changes a week is beneficial to a tank that doesn't need water changes


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Hey Tom!

I have another tank (6gal) where I don't use co2 at all and for a while I didn't dose at all but plants show deficiencies like te yellowind and loosing of lower leaves, pinholes and stagnation/dwarf new growth. I started dosing and things have improved in te new growth. It's low light so I never really had algae worries. However there is a point where there is no more improvement and I see a bit more algae on the glass and I assumed that was when the limiting factor was co2. I believe. I just measured build up an there was still deficiencies and some algae started showing (oh, a bit of thread algae also). My next step is injecting co2 in this tank.

I know 2 people that breed cardinias both injecting co2 24/7, I thought that I was on the safe side by doing that. However, most people believe and assure that co2 diminishes breeding. That said, I'm not a breeder. I just want to have nie planted tanks and high grade shrimp. Seems that to have shrimp is an excuse for having ugly tanks.

I know the light in the tank in question in this thread (30gal)
Algae will come with no co2 and there will be deficiencies without dosing, feeding an waste is not enough as there is no much PO4 in it. As I stated in the first post, I've been trying all combinations in this tank. However, I'm increasing the dosing a lil bit at the time (2 drops) but the $600+ in shrimp I have in there make me be prudent. (50PAR at substrate level)

That UGF you are showing there is exactly what I did in this tank, can I use the pics as an example if people ask me how? The only difference is that mine is like an 8 only, you have a couple more pipes in the middle there.

I'm interested on trying te reversed flow in my next set up for sure, I went to the library to read more about flora in wetlands and I read a couple of times the links you provided in a similar topic. I found that the book you cited is only available at uc berkeley's library and to buy it is like $200.... Although im curious that is a bit out of my reach.

Now I know that Phosphate can be made available for the plants in the substrate as lomg as its not disturbed (if I understood), but I don't know how much does an UGF affects that.

Side note: As I understand you are going for a phd on botany right? I would like to have a little chat about that if you don't mind because I'm trying to make up my mind on academic paths.

Thanks for checking this out.

Edit, lol! Yes, i like co2, guess who got me hooked? Remember that radio show not that long ago? 

http://m.blogtalkradio.com/aquabotanic/2012/03/17/aqua-botanic-c02-in-the-planted-aquarium-with-tom-barr

This is where I got the idea of using UGF to make co2 available for plant roots also. I mean, it was my own interpretation of the availability of co2 in under substrate water in natural conditions. Lol! my logic was to make co2 available to the roots also but mainly I did it following the practice of known breeders to stabilize PH swings, at the time i didnt know about reversed flow tho.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

fusiongt said:


> I'm interested to see your results. I would also like another test afterwards to see if 1-2 water changes a week is beneficial to a tank that doesn't need water changes


 I have done that, I was pretty much changing water from the tank at 100 TDS for new DI water and adding 100ppm of GH booster. Seemed to to me as unnecessary to do as a routine based just on my belief. I was tought to use TDS to know when to change water, this is what I did here but never reached my personal 200tds limit. Therefore the water changes got almost abolished. 

Edit: this I experimented in my 6gallon with the same set up but no co2. I will make a thread about that one, it has water changes.

That said, I just finished dosing no planaria in my 30 gallon (tank featured here), I changed 10% of the water yesterday and I will do 10% today. DOH!! 

I hope I don't have to change water for other reasons like no planaria, to demonstrate how long I can go under 200 tds while dosing at the same time.


Thanks for reading and stopping by.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> Here's a CPVC grid I made about 25 -30 years ago...


 Man, when I met you I thought you were like 30-35 yrs old!! did you make that when you were like 5yrs old?:icon_eek:

If not what is the secret? is there something like EI for humans? 



InannaMoon said:


> Love it! I'm looking at starting a shrimp tank so I love reading about other peoples' experiences with them!!


 Thank you, remember that this is not a gospel . Read as much as you can from everyone. There is different approaches and I hope you find the best of all that fit your style of keeping shrimpies.

Is this tank a High Tech or a Low Tech?

What do you think?


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## king kong (Jul 2, 2012)

Akadama substrate....very interesting. I use it for my bonsai.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

king kong said:


> Akadama substrate....very interesting. I use it for my bonsai.


 Yeah, it's very popular among cardinias sp. keepers. Buffer the ph down to like 6ish. Also its said to soften the water, I can only account for that in the first month as my GH was constantly dropping. Now it's stable.


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## Chaoslord (Feb 12, 2011)

Well written. 
When you use the PVC for your UGF do you also lay a screen over the PVC or do you just lay the gravel bed on top of it?


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Chaoslord said:


> Well written.
> When you use the PVC for your UGF do you also lay a screen over the PVC or do you just lay the gravel bed on top of it?


 Hi chaoslord, thank you. 
In this tank is only substrate as described in the first post. Very large pieces right in top of it and small grain at the surface of the substrate. I did lay media bags on top of my nano tank's UGF tho.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

I added a few links with what I consider is a "must know" and a picture of my filtration system.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

I'm learning more about plant root/microorganism systems and Co2 at Tom's Barr Report:

CO2: why some tanks might need more CO2 than others and why some folks gas their fish

Enzymatic hydrolysis of organic phosphorus w/UGF


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Updated First post with new FTS.

I also have this one  :


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

I just switched to timed co2 to see if brood improves or there is any changes on plant growth/algae.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

With CO2 on timer (lights) since 7/26/12:

So far, no ph swings.... steady 5.6 in one meter and 5.8 in a different meter, shrimp seem more active but I may be biased. Ive had one CRS death.

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update to the OP:

Other examples of high grade cardinias in planted tanks with ferts and co2:

Plantbrain: http://www.barrreport.com/showthread...mp-over-a-year

Youjettisonme: http://plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=167472


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Came back to co2 24/7 today as I notices a few BBA spots in the substrate and the manzi.

As far as I observed in regards to plant growth and shrimp behavior, there is no difference. I'm injecting just 1bps in a glass inline counter, so may be too little to be consistent enough to prevent BBA.
--
TDS 178


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

TDS 175

Dosed mosura old sea mud powder and only 5 drops of pps pro and brought it up to 182 but I'm sure it will drop by tomorrow. 

TDS are steady in this tank. 

Ph constant ~5.6 at any time, night or day.

BBA under control now.

I haven't seen any berried females for a couple of weeks but I see some tiny baby bees lurking around.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

*081412*

updated FTS


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

A word about this method's lack of water change.

There are things to take into consideration that are unique of this set up.

No water change? What?

Let's take into consideration some important factors in this particular method. There may be other totally different methods, that is great, but this is MY method.

-USING A TDS METER.

This is the most important tool, without it is a guessing game and this is like an exact Science kinda game.

I need to measure total dissolved solids every day or two when the tank is running at "idle". Without this info it's impossible to determine if the method is working or not.

Simple example: 
One gallon of zero TDS water.

I need ~120ppm of GH (6dGh) for the inverts, and I know that to reach that we need to add GH booster. The booster is not just GH so it would probably bring the TDS to 140-150 depending on the brand. 

Now I have clean water with enough GH at 150TDS. (120ppm of calcium + magnesium and other stuff)

I allow ~10-20tds(ppm) to fit all nutrients, micros and macros. (very exaggerated) .

Now i have ~ 170 TDS maximum for clean nutritious water. 

I can set up a maximum tolerance of 200 TDS (which is pretty conservative) and skip/lower dosing when the TDS are above 180TDS. 

A few days ago I reached 185 TDS, I've stopped dosing and now after 3 days I'm back at 180 TDS and I hope to get to 175 TDS soon.


- INERT SUBSTRATE. 
While having an active substrate is tempting, at least in this case, I choose to use an inert substrate for more accuracy when measuring how much does this tank "eat".

The nutrients in an active substrate slowly deplete, making it difficult to dose always the same because this inconsistency.

-MEDIUM TO HIGH LIGHT AND CO2.

I have tried doing this with non co2 tanks and it seems to be impossible to me to handle a nutrient buildup of some sort, even when skipping ferts.

A quicker metabolism, as with more light intensity and co2 injection, allows quicker consumption of nutrients, therefore it's easier to dose accordingly to the bioload and the plant consumption.

-DRY FERTILIZERS.

Commercial brands are not going to disclose their mixes. Figuring out how to dose with seachem or Ada liquid fertilizers for this purpose would be very challenging.
Dry dosing is more customizable, with the help of a number of online calculators i can make my own solutions... Literally, but pps-pro or pmdd work fine as well for me.

-LEAN TO NO LIVESTOCK.

The advantage to this is the control over waste and nitrogen compounds. 

I can always add more kno3 for my plant needs but the only way to dilute a buildup would be to change water thus making no sense with the method. 

Inverts is the way to go to start doing this.

-GOOD FILTRATION.

The whole point on using filters is to improve water quality, by over filtering a tank with this method we are just making it easier as the water won't get stagnate, there would be no scum pockets/film, better co2 distribution and very good oxygenation if a spray bar is used to move the surface.

-HEAVILY PLANTED from day one.

I don't want to give algae a chance. 

More plants will be able to process more nutrients/waste and therefore better water quality.

NO TAP WATER!

Tap water has stuff in it, maybe good if im changing water but not in this case. Every time i top off with tap, i add TDS to the tank. 

It's a must to use deionized (zero tds)
or at least RO water.

Blank canvas. Same as substrate.

.... To be continued.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Double trouble.


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## FisheriesOmen (Jan 14, 2012)

I am on the completely opposite spectrum as you. Minimal technical stuff, lots of plants and frequent WCs. But great write up either way.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

FisheriesOmen said:


> I am on the completely opposite spectrum as you. Minimal technical stuff, lots of plants and frequent WCs. But great write up either way.


Thanks! We all have our way of doing it , right? As long as it looks good and life is happy in there, its great.

I would like to take a look at your work, may you provide a link? 

I can't see signatures from tapatalk


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## FisheriesOmen (Jan 14, 2012)

~~~`The Shrimp Bowl Omen http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/pl...bowl-omen.html`~~~
That's my current shrimp bowl that I have going.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

FisheriesOmen said:


> ~~~`The Shrimp Bowl Omen http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/pl...bowl-omen.html`~~~
> That's my current shrimp bowl that I have going.


I see, nice bowl!

I have a 8x8x8 betta tank that is heavily planted too. Has an HOB tho, which is how I keep it from constant water changes. I dose a couple of ppspro drops once a week or every two weeks.

"Betto" is going to be replaced by shrimp soon. no more :fish:


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Back down to 182 TDS! 

About the photoperiod:


Been that light is the most important driving force in dictating the "metabolism" of a tank, adjusting it will dictate what method can/should be applied. 

I'm convinced that same plants could be grown with less intense light with a longer photoperiod and maybe less nutrients/co2.

I have powerful lights in this tank, 2x T5HO 22" (~50PAR @ substrate level). If I have a longer photoperiod I would need more concentration of available nutrients and co2. This conflicts with cardinias shrimp. 

So, for the plants to process the available nutrients without a higher concentration of co2 I need a shorter photoperiod with this lights. If I want a longer photoperiod, I will need more co2 (or raise the fixture which would look ugly) to outcompete algae. Nutrients will be processed either way, it's just a matter of who has better conditions, plants or algae.

The general consensus is that algae issues are a consequence of lack of co2. From my point of view is caused by excess of light, therefore the need for more co2. 

As I can't (or don't want) dose more co2, I must reduce the amount of light. And as I don't want to raise the light fixture to reduce its intensity, then I must shorten the photoperiod.

I hope this is clear enough.


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## Green_Flash (Apr 15, 2012)

Hello, at what TDS level should a water change be preformed? also when you use 0 RODI water, do you add any minerals? And what TDS level do you want that at?

For shrimp keeping, do you think the essential testing gear would be a TDS meter, GH/KH test kit and a digital pH meter?


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Green_Flash said:


> Hello,
> 
> 1-at what TDS level should a water change be preformed?
> 
> ...


Hello,

1- TDS levels are mostly at the keepers judgement. Opinions vary, I would say that I choose 200 TDS because it's the most common number, although some websites say 100. (too low in GH for my comfort)

2- yes, I do but *ONLY for a water change* I use seachem equilibrium and/ or mosura mineral plus. Calcium/magnesium doesn't evaporate. For top offs(evaporation) I use pure 0tds DI water with no minerals. 
•• All this is explained in post #1••

3-I know that one gallon needs 1/4 teaspoon of equilibrium or 8-10 drops of mosura mineral plus( I didn't dilute it). The TDS is different for every GH booster. It can vary from ~120-150 to give you 6dGH. Test your products in a gallon of 0 TDS water.

4- Absolutely. I don't like guessing. (ph meters can be a bit inaccurate. I have two and I average in between their difference of .2

There is TDS/PH/Temp meters (HM brand) that are worth buying all in one.

Thanks for checking it out!


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

I will copy and paste an explanation I had to share in another thread about WHY I cant just do 15 gallon water changes every week:

"I could be doing water changes. I just love to be polemic and controversial I guess. Lol!  

The truth is that I have to haul DI water from whole foods because my roommate is a ----- about me using common resources (utilities) for my hobby. So, 15 gallons of water are heavy to carry to a second floor every week. There was no quorum to install an RO system. He needs to know he's not paying for anything related to my tanks. And opposes my multiple tank set up.... I have to keep them all with a kw meter so he can see the cost.

But hey... He can leave the lights on all night and day.... and wash dishes with the water running full throttle the whole time. Ok, I'm venting... Sorry.



Oh, and about the plants... I have a lot of hardware and a massive sponge on the left (7x5x5) to hide, for example... Do you see my spray bar? "

**TDS are still steady at ~190 today. Im planing to do a canister manintenance where I may have to change 5-10% water soon.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

4 gallon water change for maintenance of big canister filter. Added media, carbon and purigen.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

5 gallon wc

TDS 195

Ph 5,6

GH 7


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

5 gallon WC

TDS 185

--

My conditioned tap water with prime and mosura mineral plus(5dGH) is 110.
This is without ferts.

---

Co2 is on timer now, starts one hr before the photo periods and is 3-4 bps (inline glass bubble counter).


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Colder water, but nearly 20F means that MET rates will be slowed down by about 1/2 the growth rate vs say 84F.

Every year when the weather warms up, the algae spores are everywhere........
tank temps start climbing, we see more algae issues.

This is what is likely going on(Huge temp reduction slowing growth rates down considerably).

Pejerrey- such a large temp drop makes a huge difference in any method. 

I've kept unheated tanks for a few years, and they always did better and ran much better at virtually every level.

The problem was the fish I like enjoy warmer tropical temps. 
The O2 is a good 1-2 ppm higher, detritus is much less etc.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> Colder water, but nearly 20F means that MET rates will be slowed down by about 1/2 the growth rate vs say 84F.
> 
> Every year when the weather warms up, the algae spores are everywhere........
> tank temps start climbing, we see more algae issues.
> ...


Oh! Cool! This tank is ~70F
Thanks for the info!

What is MET?


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

another video, shows co2bps and surface agitation:

http://youtu.be/UU3B7vewcmE


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## KFryman (Sep 4, 2012)

Tanks look great! What kind of rocks are those? I want to get into doing more hardscape and the rocks look awesome. Also, I have seen those balls in other shrimp tanks, what are they and where do you find them?

Also where do you get the glass feeding dishes? I want to avoid food being left uneaten in the substrate when I try my hand at shrimp


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Got the yamaya rocks from afa in japantown.

Got the glass dishes from H4N here at TPT.

Thanks for stopping by!


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## KFryman (Sep 4, 2012)

Great to know! Does H4N still have some or one? Can't find any on eBay, though I don't know if I'm searching the right word or not...

I need to go to AFA sometime, I always hear great things about them. I usually go to Neptunes, whixh i believe has a bit higher prices on some items, cheaper on others. When I redo my 15 I'll have to go to AFA for some amanos.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Yes, im sure he has more!

Buy all you need for shrimps from H4n, he's really affordable and great service.

I also buy plants from him.

There is links to his stuff for sale at the end I my first post.

What I like about this feeding dish is that first have any writing (pyrex) on it.

He has both kinds tho.

Let me know when you are planning to come to afa. I work at kabuki springs on the weekend, maybe I can give you a pass for the springs. There is also really good food around and a couple of other interesting stores to see in japantown.


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## KFryman (Sep 4, 2012)

I'll look into buying plants from him! Might as well get more out of the shipping then one glass dish.

Oh that would be awesome! I have never been to Japantoen, I don't think Chinatown either, but they both sound cool. I would rather go to Japan town because of AFA though.

What is Kabuki Springs?


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

KFryman said:


> I'll look into buying plants from him! Might as well get more out of the shipping then one glass dish.
> 
> Oh that would be awesome! I have never been to Japantoen, I don't think Chinatown either, but they both sound cool. I would rather go to Japan town because of AFA though.
> 
> What is Kabuki Springs?


It's a spa... Sauna, pools, steam room... Google it.

You can get plants, food, conditioners, supplements, fertilizer, tools, medicine (like no planaria), accessories and shrimp from H4n, so worth to try!


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

5 gal wc, a lil trimming and replanting blyxa. 

Blyxa Japonica doesn't root very well in akadama drl.

TDS 176
GH 7
Ph 6

Added some crushed coral because I'm timing the co2 (+KH) and I want to
See I this helps the tigers and neos to breed.

Saw some CRS berried females.

Tried Jake's organic barley shrimp food, it's awesome! 

(from seller somewhatshocked)


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## fusiongt (Nov 7, 2011)

So are you doing weekly water changes? If so this thread is dead! You tricked me...


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

fusiongt said:


> So are you doing weekly water changes? If so this thread is dead! You tricked me...


Lol! Yeah, I'm preparing for vacations.
I will be 3 weeks away and I will have a friend refilling and feeding twice a week so I want to lower the TDS slowly.

Once I reach 150ish it will be another 6 months without it I guess... Lol!

However, it says (ALMOST NO WC) in the title!!


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## fusiongt (Nov 7, 2011)

pejerrey said:


> Lol! Yeah, I'm preparing for vacations.
> I will be 3 weeks away and I will have a friend refilling and feeding twice a week so I want to lower the TDS slowly.
> 
> Once I reach 150ish it will be another 6 months without it I guess... Lol!
> ...


Just giving you a hard time 

Throughout the start of your thread I had a question on my mind. Have you thought about using a Fluval G3 or G6 filter as they have TDS measurements built into it. I have on my tank and use that as a measuring device - granted I don't know how accurate it is as I don't have anything to compare it to. I think if the TDS measurement was accurate on it (and it should be as that's a major selling point for the product) it would fit your tank and less-WC idea very nicely.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Oh geez that sounds awesome! Is it the screen built in to the body o the canister? Because my equipment is hidden behind screwed in doors from my stand:










So I cant easily access them. (neither my son)


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## fusiongt (Nov 7, 2011)

Yea it reads through the fluval g3's front LCD so you won't be able to see them (but when your son gets older or if you do it with another tank, it's a possibility)


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

pejerrey said:


> Oh! Cool! This tank is ~70F
> Thanks for the info!
> 
> What is MET?


Metabolic rate of respiration.

Q10 is a theory that states that for every 10C change, MET rates increase by a factor of 2X.

This is from say 10-20 C and 20C-30C, maybe 30-40C, but not beyond these ranges, since you freeze or fry.

http://www.physiologyweb.com/calculators/q10_calculator.html

Note R1 and R2 could be the different is dry mass growth rates over time, say 10% increase vs 20% increase.
With Temps being 20 C and 30C


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

fusiongt said:


> Yea it reads through the fluval g3's front LCD so you won't be able to see them (but when your son gets older or if you do it with another tank, it's a possibility)


Cool!


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> Metabolic rate of respiration.
> 
> Q10 is a theory that states that for every 10C change, MET rates increase by a factor of 2X.
> 
> ...


Oh! That is great info! 

Never stop learning with you around! Thanks!

You just made me open another can of worms! 
 (fun worms)


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Found 2 dead crystals so I took out the coral. 

5 gal WC.

Tap with prime and mosura mineral plus is 100tds

Tank after wc, mosura old sea mud powder and dosing ferts is 176tds.

Slowly working my way down to 150 TDS.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Another 5 gal wc on the 16th.
PH is 5.9 during photoperiod. Gotta measure at night.
TDS 180
GH 6-7
Feeding blanched spinach every other day.

Few thoughts:
- I don't know if the WCs, the crused coral or the spinach are getting the blue velvets to breed more. They are breeding now, few shrimplets and few berries females. Maybe they are old enough now.

- bees are not breeding, I don't see berries females nor new shrimplets, I guess they liked it without WC. However, they seem very active to me.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

> - bees are not breeding, I don't see berries females nor new shrimplets, I guess they liked it without WC. However, they seem very active to me.


Nevermind, I see a few crs/cbs shrimplets and a couple of berried CRS... there is a lot where to hide in this tank!!









and finally got a pic from a velvet shrimplet!


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Last night I did the LAST 5 gal WC prior to my vacations.

A reefer friend is gonna come and top off/feed every 3rd day.

TDS 170

crystal and velvets babies

treated the tank with paraguard a few days ago.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

this tank had a leak when I came back from vacations in early Dec 2012.

I had to torn it apart.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

damn, I miss this tank....


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## Scottyhorse (Mar 13, 2013)

That was such a great tank! I really liked it.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Scottyhorse said:


> That was such a great tank! I really liked it.


Thanks! There is a few things that I would do differently if I had to do it again!


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