# BBA w/ press. CO2 tank



## tanksalot (Jan 2, 2006)

I've been fighting BBA for a long time, unsuccessfully. It's a drilled 90 gal. with the overflow going to the top of a 2-stack wet-dry/sump. I've been feeding the CO2 to the top of the wet dry (with media) and have a pH probe in the sump controlling the CO2 flow prior to the return pump (1250 Eheim).

I had set up a dosing system prior to the previous trip, but I'm concerned that something went wrong and I blasted it with too much PPS pro. Upon returning from this most recent trip, the photo shows what I found:







. I had totally turned off dosing anything during my absence, but had a 2 gal./day water change going.

I've cleaned the wet/dry, removed ceramic media and left the cleaned sponge in the wet-dry. (left out the ceramic media due to csm+b leaching fears.) 

I'm going to put in 6 bags of Eco-complete instead of Turface. Using a Finnex LED light fixture. pH controller set at 6.1. KH about 3.

Questions: 1. Do you think feeding CO2 into the top of the wet-dry is problematic? Causing a lowered Oxygen level? I have very little surface agitation, trying to keep the CO2 in, but the fish seem sluggish.

2. Should I try to clean the existing plants (out of the tank) or use healthy ones from my 110 gal. (which looks fine without water changes or fertilizers......same water, HO lighting instead of LED and a pH setpoint of 6.4.

3. I'm going to Eco-complete. Will start PPS pro dosing w/o CSM+B. Should I add agitation withing the tank. Although I enjoy the peace of a nearly-still tank, what I've been getting isn't very attractive.

4. Since I'm not going to be on a trip for a while, I can fine-tune this system until it's RIGHT. What would you change, and how would you make this look Great? Thanks....a lot.


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

My suggestion:

1. Do not attempt to clean the algae of the plants as it is pointless if you cannot solve what is wrong with the tank. What you want to see is new healthy growth or tips that is growing algae free. Once this appears then you can technically start cleaning up the algae mess. If you attempt to clean the algae of the plants now without solving the underlying problem then you are just wasting your time because algae like BBA will simply grow back. Healthy leaves can technically grow untouched by BBA once the conditions are right. 

2. I'd start with the CO2 but a check on the nitrate levels might give you a clue. BBA is something that has a hard time growing when all the water parameters and CO2 is correct. If you can get a good KH kit and a PH pen (w/ calibration solution) then you can try to figure out your CO2 concentrations by using the PH, KH and CO2 chart. You should aim for 30+ ppm CO2. Never trust a drop checker or a PH titration kit for determining CO2 levels.

3. Reset the tank parameters by doing 50% for the next 2-3 days BUT make sure you can put the nutrients back. I would use the fert calculator and dose the tank 10 ppm NO3, 2 ppm PO4, 5 ppm K, .2 ppm Fe from CSM+B. If you know your water is soft then dose some additional Ca and Mg. 5 ppm Mg and another 5 ppm Ca is ok. Most of the time Ca and Mg exists in the tap.

4. Recheck the nitrates and phosphate levels at after 2 to 3 days. Nitrates and phosphate must never be 0 and should end up higher than 10 ppm NO3 and 2 ppm PO4. If these are 0 then simply dose to hit 10 and 2 ppm nitrate.

5. If you've only been dosing K from the PPS-Pro or whatever fert method you are using then seeding the tank with 5-10 ppm K is a good way to make sure you have non-limiting amounts of it. I usually aim for 20-30 ppm K. Most of the time K levels increase in the tank. You'll need K2S04 fert for this. 

It should take 1-2 weeks to see good growth but once it happens then you are on your way. 

What I would avoid doing:

1. Don't mess with the light schedule or light intensity. If you fix your tank with a lower light intensity or a shorter photoperiod then going back to the original setup will require to recalibrate the CO2 and nutrients for that levels. Never mess with the lights once they are set unless you cannot provide CO2 or the nutrients needed.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

So you are basically going to rebuild the aquarium. 
The little I can suggest is to reconsider the Eco-Complete substrate. It is coarse, too light to hold plants and most importantly have unpredictable impact on balancing nutrients. 

To use or not to use the old plants question I would use them, they have a good chance to recover. And for the dosing, I would do 2 ml per 10 gallon solution #1 macros with 50% weekly water changes until the plants grow back. During this time and after, dose of 1/10 of the recommended solution #2 micros will be optimal, unless you see pale new growth. Leaving plants without daily micro addition may not end up well. 

Your existing 2% automatic water change is unlikely adequate. There are many things, like substrate, wood, rocks and so on, leaking and dissolving due to CO2 injection, ruining the water column parameters. If you want to have it under control than get a cheap conductivity reader. It will tell you when and how much water needs changing. Read more and here.

And take the wood out, it is a BBA magnet.


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## tanksalot (Jan 2, 2006)

Thanks for the responses. The Eco-Complete is enroute, so I guess I'm committed; sending it back would be some serious $$. Plus, I've always wanted a dark substrate. 

My big frustration is the contrast between my two tanks....the 90 gal. that is overwhelmed with BBA and my 110 with black angels. Exact same water supply. (I have a water softener but the supply comes from before the softener for both tanks). Here's a photo of the 110 after my absence:







.

This is the technology behind the 90 gal.:









Here's a comparison of the 2 tanks:


Filter: 90-wet/dry 110-Eheim 2215 canister
pH 90- 6.2 110-6.3
Water change 90-2 gal./day 110-none
light 90-Finnex LED 110- two HO fluorescents
substrate 90-Turface 110-soil w/Turface topping (soil 15+ yrs old)
CO2 Into top of w/d in-tank Ista reactor
nutrients PPS-pro earlier none ever

Same fish food (more for angels), exact same water supply. 

I've gotten concerned (perhaps unnecessarily) that I overdosed with CSM+B when dosing the 90. That's why the removal of the ceramics from the w/d and the change of the soil. 

I have the pH probe downstream of the wet/dry "stack" which is fed from the tank overflow. I could move it but it's hard to believe that's the cause of the problem.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Just a quick look, but the 110 with the Angels has a canister filter with heavy plant mass (good) the 90 has a wet/dry with low plant mass (bad). That BBA has been building for a long time. So something has been off for a long time. Can you confirm co2 (which is a problem with wet/dry) and light intensity/duration.


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## tanksalot (Jan 2, 2006)

Photoperiod 90 - 9 hours on
Photoperiod 110 - 6 hours on

Wet/dry is sealed at top and no air gap at bottom. pH probe is downstream of wet/dry.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Assuming it's good light, (do you know the intensity) then 9 hrs is probably too long, if your having issues cut back on duration. Also I'm very skeptical of the co2. How does it not degas going through those bioballs.


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## tanksalot (Jan 2, 2006)

houseofcards said:


> Assuming it's good light, (do you know the intensity) then 9 hrs is probably too long, if your having issues cut back on duration. Also I'm very skeptical of the co2. How does it not degas going through those bioballs.


The CO2 line feeds the bioball container. No air comes in from the overflow, so the bioball container is not a source of loss. Plus, the pH probe is downstream of the bioball container.

I have no idea of the output of the Finnex light. It's about $125 on Amazon so I would suspect it's not all that much.

The light is a "Finnex FugeRay Planted+ Aquarium LED Light Plus Moonlights"....$135 on Amazon.


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## dzega (Apr 22, 2013)

from my experience its impossible to clean plant from BBA.
regarding your problem, you need like 10x more plant mass. fast growing stems if possible


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## tanksalot (Jan 2, 2006)

dzega: I agree; but plant growth is minimal in the 90. I'd like to understand the real problem before replanting.

Right now the 90 gal. has only fish and a Turface substrate.

That's it.

Given the BBA problem, I thought I'd slowly lower the pH setpoint until I saw fish distress, then back off by 0.1. The water KH is "blue at 2 drops, yellow at 3" in both tanks. Same as my well water. Although I use a water softener to remove iron, the water for both tanks is taken from before the softener.
*
Right now the pH in the 90 gal. is 5.6!!!!!* Fish are swimming happily; no signs of distress. The pH/KH table doesn't go below 6.

I've checked the pH of the tank right near the overflow (as opposed to after the stack) and it's essentially the same, 5.6. Right now it's a bare tank with Turface, no plants whatsoever. Happy fish. (???) Why?

I've cross-checked the pH readings by testing the 90-gal. water with the 110 probe, and the controller in the 90 reads about 0.1 -0.2 low. 

Before I landscape the 90 and add plants I need to understand what's going on.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Not that familiar with the light, but BBA will grow eventually in high or low light, depending on the maintainance required for each setup. It will take longer to grow in a low light setup, but it will eventually grow. Looking at the pic, it looks like that algae has been there a long time and the tank wasn't maintained on a regular basis. Sometimes with a lot of dense growing plants the tank will take care of itself longer, but that tank doesn't really have anything growing so the algae took over based on the organics and the light.

If your confident that your co2 is good and your dosing. That just leaves light. Now too much light with high organics (inconsistent or too small water changes, too much food, too much stock) and low plant mass that will definitely give your BBA. You can still get the BBA with less light it would just take longer. 

Someone with experience with that light hopefully will chime in. My guess is that's a deep tank and the plants weren't really growing that well so the BBA took hold over an extended period of time.

Edit: What is your PH without adding co2.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

tanksalot said:


> The water KH is "blue at 2 drops, yellow at 3" in both tanks. Same as my well water.


 That would indicate 1.5 dKH in 5 ml I guess. That’s not a problem.



> * Right now the pH in the 90 gal. is 5.6!!!!!* Fish are swimming happily; no signs of distress.


 What signs you talking about? Fish love low pH, unless they are from Tanganyika. 



> The pH/KH table doesn't go below 6.


 Here you have tables with any pH. Take a cup of aquarium water and let it sit overnight. The following day, test for pH. If below 7 than CO2 tables are not applicable. Though, a simple bubble rate count doesn’t lie.



> Although I use a water softener to remove iron, the water for both tanks is taken from before the softener.


 You need pH, KH, Fe, Ca and Mg analysis of your source water. Also, a TDS reader would help with aquarium water quality maintenance due to substrate, CO2 and pH interactions.


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## tanksalot (Jan 2, 2006)

houseofcards said:


> Edit: What is your PH without adding co2.


 In the 110, when I run out of CO2, it'll go up to 7.8. Not sure on the 90, I'd guess 7.6.

I'll be home for the next few months, so I'd like to enjoy it. Even when I was home, It would go through a cycle..BBA....redo...hope the new growth continues so I could cut off the BBA, then watch it deteriorate again. I suspected that during one of my absences the dosing pump overdosed, so I changed gravel, washed ceramics in wet/dry and left it for 2 months (another trip) without any dosing. Came back to what was pictured. Now all I have in the wet-dry is sponge. Other than the light (which has gangbuster reviews on Amazon) the only other diff. between the 2 is the wet-dry vs. the canister. With all the edges very tight, I can't see why that would matter; Also, the pH of the water TO the aquarium is very low, so even if the wet-dry leaked the CO2 input would compensate.

Under the 110 I have a 20 gal. tank of guppies. I'll probably put in the Eco-complete, fill it and then see how low (on the pH meter) the guppies can tolerate it. But I'm still very puzzled as to why I can go so low without gassing anything.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

tanksalot said:


> Under the 110 I have a 20 gal. tank of guppies. I'll probably put in the Eco-complete, fill it and then see how low (on the pH meter) the guppies can tolerate it. But I'm still very puzzled as to why I can go so low without gassing anything.


 The guppies don’t care about pH but certainly can be poisoned by high CO2.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

*"so I changed gravel, washed ceramics in wet/dry and left it for 2 months (another trip) without any dosing."*

So you basically restarted the tank, with a most of the bio-filter gone since your changed the gravel. If you ran lights 9 hrs and didn't dose the tank there's no way anything is growing but BBA.

*"But I'm still very puzzled as to why I can go so low without gassing anything."*

If your going from a ph of 7.8 to about 5.8 that's alot of co2, without any real uptake by the plants. Something is off since the fish aren't having any issues.


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## tanksalot (Jan 2, 2006)

Edward: As I type this, the pH of the tank is 5.6 and the fish are swimming happily. My plan is to risk a couple of guppies, learn the lowest pH that is fish-safe in my system, then bump it up 0.2. 

Then I'll risk the cardinals, loaches etc. 

I'd love to understand why I can run it so low. I didn't think KH of 2.5 would allow this without gassing the fish.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

tanksalot said:


> Edward: As I type this, the pH of the tank is 5.6 and the fish are swimming happily. My plan is to risk a couple of guppies, learn the lowest pH that is fish-safe in my system, then bump it up 0.2.
> 
> Then I'll risk the cardinals, loaches etc.
> 
> I'd love to understand why I can run it so low. I didn't think KH of 2.5 would allow this without gassing the fish.


 You didn’t see my post #12.
The guppies don’t care about pH but at the same time are sensitive to CO2 levels. You are all about CO2 –> KH -> pH correlation. This is ok until something goes wrong. For example pH probes are ok when taken out of calibration solution but then shortly after can go wrong fast. Also, when there are tannins, organic acids from peat and so on, than the actual CO2 levels are unknown because the pH is wrong. You can get misleading CO2 information and therefore assume wrong CO2 levels.

CO2 as carbonic acid in water is a mild acid. It lowers pH up to around 3.65 pH max, which is not a problem for fish or plants. (Except Tanganyika cichlids) In order to achieve so low pH while having low CO2 level, the KH must be low to zero. 

Anyhow, this is not your problem. And there is no need to torture or kill fish in order to find the highest CO2 levels. 

Your aquarium doesn’t need more than three bubbles per second. If you set it to the three bubbles per second, you can be sure you have enough CO2 and not torturing fish. No need to play with pH and KH either. Keep it simple.

I have some more questions in post #12.


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## Brian727 (Aug 3, 2015)

Hey!!! I got this BBA and Hair Algae Killer that works wonders. It took 3 weeks to see it disappear completely. I'm on the last week of 4 recommended for the treatment. I have a 120 gallon and if I would take the time to post pictures you'd be surprised. I got it from elevateshrimp.com. It's shrimp safe and plant safe and all of my plants are just taking off now. I've never been happier with my tank. Seriously give it a try. You'll only need one bottle. It's $20 or something cheap like that. 

I'll agree with Edward up there that the driftwood is a BBA magnet. It only took a few months of being in the tank before BBA showed up everywhere. But that was because my water parameters were terrible and fluctuating. I've fixed the problem with a different source of R/O water, different lights (My one light was too powerful but not enough displacement), added co2, and did this amazing treatment. Picked off BBA here and there and removed old hair algae growth after new growth sprouted. It takes time, but if you do this treatment you'll be very happy and will probably find me on here and thank me again. I'm telling you it works wonders. I am not affiliated with this place one bit, just very very very satisfied with the progress. 

I have black substrate in my tank, it's fine and is growing plants just fine. Adjusting your water parameters and correcting them to what's in your tank is very important. I believe that you can grow any plant in any substrate (Obviously not ANY substrate but you get what I'm saying) with the right water parameters for your unique setup. A tank is a huge eco system and each one is completely different depending on what you have in your tank.

If I were you, I would:
1. Remove as much of it as you can. Manually pick it off with your fingers. It's not easy as its tough to grab, but it can be done. 
2. Do massive water changes. Get your water parameters to where they need to be according to what's in your tank.
3. Use this algae killer Hair Algae Killer ? ElevateShrimp 
Do the regiment as it states. It's very simple. I have a plastic syringe that I use in the tank and I squirt it on the source of the algae. Do water changes right before each dose each week. 50% water changes, FYI, could get costly with your source of water. 
4. A month or so down the road, come back on this site and send me a message telling me how awesome I am. 

Hope this helps, and I wish you the best.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Thank you Brian727, good to know!
.


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## tanksalot (Jan 2, 2006)

Brian727: Thanks, but I'd like to find the source of the problem, rather than treating the symptom. 

The pH of my aquarium water, after sitting overnight, is 7.2. I checked the KH again today, using the overnight-sitting water. It turned green at 6 drops. (About the same with the aquarium water). Edward: I don't understand dividing the # of drops by 2. My instructions show a 1:1 relationship between KH and # of drops.

Something strange is happening here. With the pH at 5.6 (caused exclusively by pH injection) and a KH of 6 (or even 3, yesterday ???) that guppy should have been in severe distress with CO2 poisoning (over 300 ppm CO2). The angel aquarium works fine at pH 6.3 and no water changes; pH controller & Istamax dissolver. The 90 is a mess. The difference between the two is the wet dry, which is sealed at the top & bottom. 

Edward: You said "CO2 as carbonic acid in water is a mild acid. It lowers pH up to around 3.6 pH max, which is not a problem for fish or plants." I don't understand. Isn't CO2 in excess lethal to fish?


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

tanksalot said:


> Brian727: Thanks, but I'd like to find the source of the problem, rather than treating the symptom.
> 
> The pH of my aquarium water, after sitting overnight, is 7.2. I checked the KH again today, using the overnight-sitting water. It turned green at 6 drops. (About the same with the aquarium water). Edward: I don't understand dividing the # of drops by 2. My instructions show a 1:1 relationship between KH and # of drops.


You are correct, the number of drops equals the hardness in German degrees.


> Something strange is happening here. With the pH at 5.6 (caused exclusively by pH injection) and a KH of 6 (or even 3, yesterday ???) that guppy should have been in severe distress with CO2 poisoning (over 300 ppm CO2). The angel aquarium works fine at pH 6.3 and no water changes; pH controller & Istamax dissolver. The 90 is a mess. The difference between the two is the wet dry, which is sealed at the top & bottom.


I'm sure no fish would survive 300 ppm of CO2, so you don't have that. If you are doing your measurements in the sump and not in the tank, that could be the problem. The CO2 could be outgassed by the transfer of water back to the tank. Splashing could do that, or extreme rippling. But, a much more likely explanation is the usual one - you can't measure CO2 using the KH and pH of the water unless there is nothing in the water affecting the pH or KH except CO2 and carbonates. That is rarely the case with an aquarium.


> Edward: You said "CO2 as carbonic acid in water is a mild acid. It lowers pH up to around 3.6 pH max, which is not a problem for fish or plants." I don't understand. Isn't CO2 in excess lethal to fish?


Several years ago I read a paper that showed that the limit on pH caused by CO2 was around 5 to 5.5. I haven't found that paper since then, and my memory is what it used to be, so I could be mis-remembering. But, I am almost certain the limit isn't as low as 3.6 pH. And, yes, it is the CO2 that is lethal, not the pH.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I thought the same thing, that co2 is being outgassed, but OP states that his PH without co2 is 7.2 and with it 5.6.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

tanksalot said:


> I don't understand dividing the # of drops by 2. My instructions show a 1:1 relationship between KH and # of drops.


 Sorry, my KH kits go by half a degree per drop. Surely follow your kit’s instructions. Who makes your KH kit?



> The pH of my aquarium water, after sitting overnight, is 7.2. I checked the KH again today, using the overnight-sitting water. It turned green at 6 drops. (About the same with the aquarium water).
> Something strange is happening here. With the pH at 5.6 (caused exclusively by pH injection) and a KH of 6 (or even 3, yesterday ???) that guppy should have been in severe distress with CO2 poisoning (over 300 ppm CO2). The angel aquarium works fine at pH 6.3 and no water changes; pH controller & Istamax dissolver. The 90 is a mess. The difference between the two is the wet dry, which is sealed at the top & bottom.


 You let you aquarium water air out overnight and tested 7.2 with a kit or a probe? Your aquarium water tested 3 dKH yesterday and 6 dKH today??? 

You are describing two aquariums, I am lost. We need to deal with one only.

This is how it works;
Test aquarium water pH that was airing overnight in a jar. With a pH test kit.
Test aquarium water pH, from the tank. With the same pH test kit.
Test aquarium water KH, from the tank. 

Then use pH – KH – CO2 table to figure the CO2 concentration. 



> Edward: You said "CO2 as carbonic acid in water is a mild acid. It lowers pH up to around 3.65 pH max, which is not a problem for fish or plants." I don't understand. Isn't CO2 in excess lethal to fish?


Yes, CO2 is toxic at higher concentrations. 

This is what I said: “CO2 as carbonic acid in water is a mild acid. It lowers pH up to around 3.65 pH max, which is not a problem for fish or plants. (Except Tanganyika cichlids) *In order to achieve so low pH while having low CO2 level, the KH must be low to zero.”*

In zero KH, CO2 injection can push pH down up to 3.65 with small and safe amount of CO2 gas. CO2 pushes pH down and KH pushes pH up. If there is no KH then there is nothing stopping CO2 from reaching low pH even with small amount of gas. So, it is not pH killing fish but dissolved CO2 levels.


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## tanksalot (Jan 2, 2006)

houseofcards said:


> I thought the same thing, that co2 is being outgassed, but OP states that his PH without co2 is 7.2 and with it 5.6.


 Those numbers are correct (or at least that's what my test results give me). Today I rechecked the KH, both of the aquarium water and the sample that sat overnight. KH is about 6. No idea why the diff.

Here's a photo of the setup. The tank overflow is the large tube top right. Goes into the top of the 2-stack bioball drip section. CO2 goes into the gray elbow. Now I also have air going in there since the fish appeared sluggish for a while, and I learned that the air won't inhibit CO2 absorption. The bottom edge of the lower box is below water level, so CO2 loss is minimal.

The ceramic bio-media is directly below the two-stack section. That flow goes underneath to the sponge section, where the flow is up. Following that is the pH probe, another sponge, and then the return pump. There's a check valve (see green foam) and then a 3/4 inch line feeding to the bottom of the aquarium. 

I've washed and replaced the ceramic biomedia, which was stored under water in a bucket. Overdosing of trace elements in my absence made me suspect the media, but with it washed and put into use for a day, the residue (if any) should be minimal. I plan on doing a large water change tommorrow. 

I'm getting tempted to forget the wet dry entirely, but I can't find a technical reason to do so, other than a crappy aquarium. I really like the technology being behind the scenes, with crystal-clear water and fluorishing plants, but that goal seems unattainable in this setup. Plus, nearly no problems in the 110, with essentially no maintenance.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

houseofcards said:


> I thought the same thing, that co2 is being outgassed, but OP states that his PH without co2 is 7.2 and with it 5.6.


Yes and other problems on top of that. Cannot have KH of 3 degrees and the next day 6, or vice versa.


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## tanksalot (Jan 2, 2006)

Edward: "Yes and other problems on top of that. Cannot have KH of 3 degrees and the next day 6, or vice versa."

I know this is puzzling. That's why I'm here. My choice is to tell it like it is (and risk ridicule) or not to. My viewpoint is I'll tell you'all the absolute truth and together we'll figure out what's going on. I do appreciate your help.

I re-tested the KH again this evening. Green at 6 drops, yellow at 7. Thus 6.5? 

I've got the CO2 flow set up at 3 bbs. The pH controller is now just a monitor. I'll post the tank's pH in the morning. Should I leave it on all night, or turn it on in the AM and post later in the day?


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

You don’t have to worry, we are here to help. 



tanksalot said:


> I re-tested the KH again this evening. Green at 6 drops, yellow at 7. Thus 6.5?


 This is seven of whatever your test kit’s instructions say. Do you have the instructions? We need to know what the seven drops represents. 



> I've got the CO2 flow set up at 3 bbs. The pH controller is now just a monitor. I'll post the tank's pH in the morning. Should I leave it on all night, or turn it on in the AM and post later in the day?


 I have CO2 running 24/7 at a fixed bubble rate, simple. You can leave yours on too. This way, you don’t have to worry about the pH regulator acting funny. 

Tomorrow, get the KH reading, not just number of drops but the real value it represents, and the pH reading tested by a test kit, not the probe. Then we will know the CO2 level.


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## tanksalot (Jan 2, 2006)

Will do. thanks


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## tanksalot (Jan 2, 2006)

Progress: Yesterday I THOUGHT I left the CO2 on at 3 bps, but this morning I realized I had not. Plugging in the CO2 controller, the pH read 7.7!! When I turned on the CO2 to 2 bps, it dropped slowly to 7.2 and stayed there.

I re-calibrated the pH meter & probes, which are shown below. I use an Omega lab-grade pH controller and Orion 9157BN probe. The probe alone goes for $360 on Amazon. Comparing the two aquariums (90 & 110 pH's, moving water samples around) shows at most a 0.2 pH difference. I have full confidence in the accuracy of the readings.

I also, in a pre-emptive question strike, measured the KH of the aquarium again, and got about a 6.5. The test IS a one drop = 1 dKH system. On a whim, I measured the 55 gal. plastic barrel of water, which was heated to 75º and was going to be used for the large water change. Lo & Behold the KH was 2.5!!!! This also reflects the KH increase from the other day that was so puzzling, when I initially reported 2.5 but then upped it to 6-7.

My initial thought was to blame the ceramic media that I re-introduced yesterday, but then I did some research on Eco-Complete. Seems my experience was not unique, and there are lots of reports of Eco-complete raising KH & pH in soft water aquariums.

My plan now is to lower the pH to 5.8 or so (watching the fish health) for the purpose of "washing" the Eco-Complete. Then a large water change and check on the system tommorrow.

Thoughts/opinions?
thanks for your feedback!


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Very good, now I understand what is going on. 
I should say “again”, because this is the same nightmare people have been experiencing with soft “smart” substrates. And what makes it much worse is the combination of such substrates with pH -> CO2 controllers. I will explain.

Substrates other than inert are continuously reacting with carbonic acid from CO2 enrichment. This reaction is releasing carbonates KH into the water column. Lower the pH is, faster the reaction therefore higher the KH. When this higher KH appear, the pH goes up. Then when the pH -> CO2 controller reads the higher pH it injects more CO2 to compensate. More the pH -> CO2 controller compensates by increasing CO2 injection, more KH is being released by the substrate thus increasing the KH higher, increasing the pH again. See the never ending vicious cycle?

As a result, you see 3 dKH form tap and 6 dKH in the aquarium. This is causing massive CO2 fluctuations as the pH -> CO2 controller is trying to maintain the preset pH. 

As a consequence, the plants are being bombarded with massive KH and CO2 swings and unable to adapt. 

Solution:
In order to have stable KH and stable CO2 levels, both must be controlled independently. 
To monitor the KH daily is not practical with test kits. However, when KH from substrate goes up then conductivity goes up as well. A simple TDS meter can monitor this daily or even in real time and trigger proper water changes, either automatic or manual. Once you control this KH issue then the pH -> CO2 controller will do its job.


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## MoreyFan (Jul 3, 2014)

The only way I got rid of BBA was cutting it off. Always seems to show up when I put new plants in.


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## tanksalot (Jan 2, 2006)

Edward: You're correct. I've been keeping up with this thread by re-loading from my history. Leaving the lights off gives me a pH of 7.3. With lights on and 3 bps I get down to 6.9 pH.

I totally agree; by running the pH down to 5.6, I dissolved a significant portion of the carbonate component of the EC. Then I did a large water change. Now my hardness is about 3.5 with pH at 6.9.

The 3bps won't drop the pH lower. I've set up the system to dose the non-trace component of PPS pro dally. Water change at about 2 gpd.
I'm putting both air and CO2 into the 2-stack for the wet-dry, and have re-introduced the ceramic media. Any suggestions, or just wait and see?

Thanks very much for the follow-up!


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

In order to grow healthy plants the KH has to be *consistent*. 
Your tap KH is 3 degrees which is very good for plants. However, your substrate due to CO2 is releasing extra KH altering the water column. The KH higher level is not as harmful as the fluctuations. 

To keep the KH under control with water changes you have two monitoring options, a KH test kit or a TDS meter. 

The KH test kit takes more time and has low resolution of 1 degree or 0.5 degree if you double the test water. The TDS meter takes only a second and has higher resolution and includes other dissolved components from the substrate and also includes *unused fertilizers*. You get better results with the TDS meter, highly recommended. 

Once you get the KH stable then use the KH -> pH -> CO2 table to determine the right pH for 20 ppm of CO2. The CO2 injection can be regulated by the pH -> CO2 controller or by manual fixed bubble rate. 

For the fertilizer use solution #1 macros at 1 ml per 10 gallon and solution #2 micros at 2 drops per 10 gallon. Both daily before lights go on. 

In the meantime think about removing portions of the substrate for serious cleanings.


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## tanksalot (Jan 2, 2006)

TDS probe is on order; Now dosing 12 mL of macro's and 12 mL of a 50% diluted micro solution daily. Have 55 gal. of water warmed for next water change. Will use gravel cleaner to drain water prior to refill. CO2 at 3 bps. pH at 6.8 before lights on. KH of 4.

Plants looking good and no signs of BBA regrowth.


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## tanksalot (Jan 2, 2006)

Got the probe today. Aquarium Dkh is 4, drum of spare water is 3 Dkh
TDS of Aquarium is 172......TDS of drum of spare water is 124

pH of aquarium is 6.8. Plants are still looking good with no signs of BBA regrowth. Gravel was washed during last large water change. 

I appreciate the help very much.!!! How do I use this data?

Thanks in advance

Stan F.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

tanksalot said:


> Got the probe today. Aquarium dKH is 4, drum of spare water is 3 dKH
> TDS of Aquarium is 172......TDS of drum of spare water is 124


 See the relationship between dKH and TDS readings? Your dKH has increased from 3 to 4. At the same time, your TDS increased from 124 to 172. This is the same increase rate of 36% for both. What measurement was easier to do? Was it the KH test kit or the TDS stick done in a second? 

Please see this thread http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/1013169-tds-meter.html


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## tanksalot (Jan 2, 2006)

pH is holding steady at 6.8 - 6.9; 3 bbs 24/7. ppm is 187, KH is 3. Spare water drum is still 125 (didn't take KH reading). Tank is still looking good. I'm tempted to drop the pH via controller to 6.5 to raise the dissolved CO2. But, since I've gotten this far listening to your advice, I thought it would be prudent to run it by y'all.

Is it reasonable to conclude that the ppm is slightly higher due to unused fertilizer, and the higher CO2 rate would cause that figure to drop?

Objections/concerns?

Thanks in advance
Tanksalot


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Hi, 
can your TDS meter be switched to µS (micro Siemens) mode or does it have only ppm?

Ok, so your water source TDS is 125 [ ] and aquarium TDS is 187 [ ], and slowly rising. Let’s wait until the aquarium water tests 100 TDS more, 125 + 100 = 225. When it happens then water change is due. 

The CO2 regulator is not going to work yet, why the rush. Aren’t healthy plants more beautiful than fast growing algae infested forest?



> Is it reasonable to conclude that the ppm is slightly higher due to unused fertilizer, and the higher CO2 rate would cause that figure to drop?


 Yes, fertilizers, substrate and other items are increasing the total TDS readings. So, higher CO2 may use little more fertilizer but the main TDS contributor is the substrate right now. Preventing the TDS from rising over a set value with water changes is the goal.


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## tanksalot (Jan 2, 2006)

Edward: Thanks for the feedback. The meter read TDS only.

I'll be checking the TDS and getting back to you in a few days.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Hi
I have done some TDS meters tests please see post #25 for update on ppm TDS meters. The +100 may not apply to ppm meters. Thank you.


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## mredman (Sep 4, 2015)

BBA can be controlled but not eliminated. An eight to nine-hour photoperiod should not be problematic.

Like weeds in your yard, BBA needs a program to keep it under control. I find Eco-Complete a good substrate in my heavily-planted tank. In the first two months after setting up my 135-gallon tank, I had problems with both BBA and staghorn algae. 

The first step is to make a commitment to a heavily-planted tank. You can buy several types and eventually pull out the species that become boring or too much work. I migrated from a lot of "green plants" and later replaced some of them with "red plants". 

I use a combination of RO and tap water. It is important to know if your tap water may be a source of phosphates. Furthermore, the use of test kits are very important. Although there is no good test (in my opinion) for potassium, there are good tests for nitrogen, phosphates, calcium and iron. In the earlier stages of my aquarium, I noticed some of the classical potassium deficiency (pinholes in some of the leaves), so I increased potassium levels. I was alternating between potassium salts of sulfate, phosphate and nitrate. After a while, I noticed some of the algae coming back and I checked the phosphates, which were more than 20 ppm. I eliminated the supplemental potassium phosphate. My potassium levels returned to the 2 to 3 ppm level. 

Two important tools are hydrogen peroxide and glutaraldehyde. When I make water changes, I mist the hydrogen peroxide on the exposed glass, spray bars and exposed wood. After the water change, you can immediately see the fine bubbles where you sprayed any organic matter. I have never seen any damage to plants or fish.

Every day I also spot treat 2.6% glutaraldehyde with a syringe without a needle. The next day, the BBA will normally turn purple, then white before disappearing. Some plants can tolerate a direct hit from glutaraldehyde (swords, African fern) but other like Madagascar lace plants and some bucephalandra may be damaged. The lace plants will become brittle and break off. I use 25 ml every day and any excess that I don't treat with the syringe is poured into the tank. Glutaraldehyde will wipe out BBA very quickly when sprayed on wood. 

Mike


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

There is a variety of TDS meter modes and units, KCl ppm, “442” ppm, NaCl ppm, µS microS and converting between them is impractical. In order to overcome this we can use the following,

Take three readings,
tap
tap with 10 drops of solution #1 macros in 1000 ml
aquarium

then,
water change IF [ aquarium ] > [ tap with 10 drops of solution #1 macros in 1000 ml ]

The first two readings will not change, so only one reading will be needed to determine water changes. The aquarium readings.


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## tanksalot (Jan 2, 2006)

Water in drum this morning: 156 
Drum water with 15 drops macros in 1500 mL: 192
Aquarium before fert. regimen: 193
Aquarium after fert. regimen: 214.

It'll be interesting to see what the aquarium reads at 9:30 am, before the pump starts putting in trace & macros. Ideally, it should read 193 (correct?).

I can see why the TDS meter could be a very useful tool.

Thanks again


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

tanksalot said:


> Water in drum this morning: 156
> Drum water with 15 drops macros in 1500 mL: 192
> Aquarium before fert. regimen: 193
> Aquarium after fert. regimen: 214.
> ...


 Thank you very much for posting your data.
Your addition of 10 drops of macros in 1000 ml caused an increase of 36 ppm. I have the same reading with a generic TDS ppm meter. 

This 36 ppm represents the highest amount of residual fertilizers we want to have in the aquarium. For this to work your drum water should have consistent parameters. Then, 
water change IF aquarium > drum + 36 ppm

If you want to know the daily fertilizer ppm addition you can add into 1000 ml, 10 drops of macros and 1 drop of micros. Then, 
ppm daily fertilizer = ( ppm drum with fertilizers – ppm drum ) / 20

For this amount of fertilizer to be consumed in one day the aquarium would have to be fully planted and the plants to be in perfect shape. This will take some time. In the meantime, you will be experiencing ppm increases caused by substrate in higher rate than the daily fertilizer addition. 

When you get the ppm under control, you can increase the bubble rate or hookup the CO2 controller to have at KH of 3dGH, 6.6 pH, and 23 ppm of CO2.


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## tanksalot (Jan 2, 2006)

I recently ordered some Myrio Guyana. The plant was extraordinary, bright green, healthy, lush, huge. I've had it about a week, and there are a few scraps left. You can see it in front of the Bolbitis, which was covered in algae from my other tank. Of more concern is the photo of the anubias, showing a bright green new leaf but also a "brownish hairy scum" which can be seen on the leaf in the foreground.

Aquarium TDS is 224, 55 gal drum of water is 176. PO4 is 0 from drum and 1-2 ppm in Aquarium. pH is 6.7. ( I couldn't resist and turned up the flow slightly). NO3 is about 2.5 ppm KH is 3.
Although things don't look "horrible", that brownish fuzz has been a problem for a long, long time, and very much worries me. Older foliage goes from bright green to brownish-crappy. . The aquarium lacks that "sparkly bright green healthy" look. Suggestions....Please!!


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

This is like 4th day of restoration. The aquarium TDS is 224 ppm and the drum is 176 ppm. The difference is 48 ppm. Your tested NO3 including unavailable organics is only 2.5 ppm which may be about 5 ppm TDS at most. So, there is still 48 – 5 = 43 ppm of unwanted compounds to be removed with water changes. 

Next 55 gallon on 120 gallon is 45% water change will result in
224 -> 202 ( - 22)
202 -> 190 ( - 12)
190 -> 184 ( - 6)
184 -> 180 ( - 4)

It should be 176 (drum) + 5 (2.5 ppm NO3) = 181, not 224. It will take at least four more water changes to clean it up. Can you double the daily macros from 12 to 24 ml for a week? No change to micros. This is to get things started.


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## tanksalot (Jan 2, 2006)

Thank you. Will change tomorrow (maybe tonight) and get back to you.


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## tanksalot (Jan 2, 2006)

Edward:

Sorry for the lengthy absence, but I've learned a lot recently. After making repeated water changes, I noticed the new leaves would algae-up faster. The tap water contains silica. Plus, I've had a very fine pore sponge filter that never got totally clean in my wet-dry. I believe that would leach silica into the water, compounding the problem. I'm now using rain water, have taken out the fine sponge filter and new green leaves are staying green longer without a brown slime buildup. Once the silica in the system is depleted and the tank is doing well, I'll either use PPS classic or try PPS Pro with tap water.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Hi
Rain water will make your plants collapse, no minerals in it. 

Seeing more algae after intensive water changes is normal, any rapid water parameter change will do that. Still, it is the only way to clean the system up. You need to get the aquarium TDS under control and stabilize it there with small and organized water changes. 

But that is impossible when your tap chemistry changes substantially and fast. In matter of days your tap chemistry changed 40%! Do you add something to it or is it natural?

Tap TDS ppm,
124 post #35
125 post #37
156 post #43
176 post #45

If you don’t add anything to the tap water then this explains one of your significant problems. 

Plants cannot adapt to ever changing parameters. Also, this explains your brown dust and slime algae. It is indicating a problem with biological filtration. No wonder it doesn’t work. The colonies of beneficial organism for biological filtration cannot develop without having consistent water parameters.

Also, how are we going to monitor TDS for water changes when the tap increases 52 TDS in days? This is more than the maximum limit fertilizer increase of 36.

If you can do rain or RO water then there is a way.


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## tanksalot (Jan 2, 2006)

Edward: 
I thought it would be fair to get back to you with a progress report. The last two weeks i"ve been using rainwater with Barr's GH booster added for a GH of 6 and a KH of 4.5 (with NaHCO3). Also adding 12 mL of PPS pro solutions daily. The brown dust that has driven me crazy is non-existent. When I tested the aquarium water for silica I got ZERO (of course). I'm ashamed to admit this, but I have been dosing PPS pro incorrectly for a LONG time. I had been adding both the macros and the micros in equal amounts. Yes, color me stupid. I re-read the directions at the same time as I went to rainwater, and have adjusted. (I SO MUCH did not want to reveal this).

Being buoyed by good plant growth (mostly) and no brown dust, and seeing the need for a water change due to high TDS and BBA showing up, as well as being out of rain water, I decided to go back to tap water. I cleaned EVERYTHING - gravel, wet/dry trimmed plants. The first photo shows the aquarium water silica test after the change. With rain water it was totally clear.

Prior to me or the dosing pump adding anything, I tested the aquarium and got the following: KH 4, GH 7, PO4 0.75, PO4 (water in drum) 0, NO3: 0, FE: 0 . Using fertilator I added appropriate amounts of k2so4, kno3 and CSM+B.
Having read that Mg deficiency will cause the green stripes on the crypts, I also added 10 gms MgSO4. I had purchased the Salifert Mg test kit, but it's only made for salt water ranges. Do you have a better brand for freshwater use?
It's looking like PPS classic might be a better choice. More control, no more moving barrels around and a better idea of exactly what's going on.
Thanks for your support. The tank TDS (after adding the above) is 262. The barrel reads 137 - 138. I can change the water tommorrow with the drum water.

I'd appreciate your thoughts after you finish laughing about the micro dosing tsunami. Thanks again.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Hi
Thanks for the update
By using the “GH booster” you are adding at 6 dGH crazy 70 ppm of K. Overdosing K like this will create nutrient unbalance and consequent deficiency symptoms.

Don’t worry about the micros dose. It was dosed like that for years and worked well. The only problem was accumulation in some substrates. 

The rain water was a good idea too, but changing back and forth won’t make plants happy. It takes time for them to adapt. 

Your tests are good. See the problem? Aquarium NO3 is at zero? That’s no good!

Deficiency and toxicity pictures look alike in many situations. I wouldn’t judge and dose based on that. We don’t test for Mg directly. It is done by GH and Ca test kits and then calculating the Mg. 

So, I am not sure what you want to do next. 
PPS-Pro will need water changes because of inconsistent tap parameters and so be adding more impurities. You could dose daily and flush 50% weekly. No testing after initial set up.

PPS-Classic requires weekly testing of GH, Ca, NO3, PO4 and documenting results. Then calculator, based on the results will tell you what and how much to dose next. There are three macros solutions, one Mg solution and dry CaSO4. In two months the pattern becomes obvious and will require testing only every two weeks. Later, once a month testing is doable when parameters become consistent. I have done aquariums like this for many years with zero water changes.


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