# Seachem Rep told me that 1 liter of Matrix = 10 liters of Ehfisubstrat Pro. True?



## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

I was asking Seachem about their Matrix biomedia and I was told that one liter of Matrix was equivalent in surface area to TEN liters of Ehfisubstrat Pro. 

DAMN. He told me that Seachem reccomends 100 ml's of Matrix per ten gallons in your average aquarium, and since all I have is five otos and shrimp in my 60-P I could probably use 100 ml's of Matrix instead of the liter of ehfisubstrat Pro I have in there now. I may decide to get five more otos and maybe even ten Pygmy corydoras. This is a little overstocked but wince the fish are small, the tank is heavily planted, and for all intents and purposes I wouldn't be feeding the ottos I am not concerned. 

If I switched over to Matrix slowly, I could easily fit 100 ml's (probably 250 ml's) in the top basket of my Ecco 2236 where I keep my Purigen. This would let me Free up A WHOLE LITER of media space, or one whole basket, that I could fill with more filter floss.

Here is the deal... There has to be a catch. I smell BS somehow... How can matrix really have ten times the biomedia capacity of Ehfisubstrat Pro? matrix also claims to house denitrifying bacteria which I don't want. I suspect that if I broke up any larger pieces of matrix that this would prevent any internal anaerobic areas from developing. 

Even though matrix isn't spherical, if only 100-200 ml's are needed for my tank then the irregal shape shouldn't matter anyway. 

How can this be true, especially since matrix is cheap compared to ehfisubstrat pro?

Thanks clint


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Just my opinion but I think biomedia is biomedia. It doesn't matter if it's noodles, coco puffs or looks like gravel it all works in the same manner. 

As far as Seachem having much more surface area than Eheim, I don't know. About all you can do is go by the manufacturer's claims, whether they seem true or not.

I'm not sure how you're going to avoid denitrifying bacteria since you'll find them in all healthy tanks.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

It's true. But really, are you going to use 1/10th as much? I dont, I still just fill my baskets. You can trust that they have that much surface area, but you cannot look at it and tell.

I just use the same amount as with bioballs or lava rock, or dish scrubbers, or pvc curlings, or whatever else is hot at the time. The only reason I use matrix right now is because it's cheap and as far as I can tell it works great.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

I am just thinking of using matrix because if I can use 100-250 mls of matrix and remove the 1,000 mlsof ehfisubstrat pro I have in there now, that gives me 750-900 cubic centimeters of free space I could add other stuff in, like more floss or Renew (a product I have been thinking of trying.)

For me, I view it like upgrading from one of those 90's big screen TV's that is two and a half feet thick to a modern flatscreen TV that's two inches or less thick. The screen is the same but it takes up a small fraction of the space.


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## [email protected] (Jul 17, 2008)

What are your plans for when the pores clog up?
That extra surface area would have to come at the expense of more but smaller holes. 

Here is the official word from their web site. 
http://www.petmountain.com/product/aquarium-bio-media/11442-512391/seachem-matrix-bio-media.html

Matrix bio media is a highly porous media designed to provide exceptionally efficient biofiltration for single site removal of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate from freshwater, marine, and reef aquaria. Each liter of Matrix provides over 160,000 cm2 (170 sq. ft.) of surface, equivalent to over 40 L (10 gallons) of typical plastic ball media! This product is sold by volume. Cited weight is minimal weight.

DIRECTIONS: Use 500 mL of Matrix for each 200 L (50 gallons*) of water. Matrix may be placed in any kind of filter, and is particularly effective in a canister filter. Matrix is sufficiently large that no filter bag should be required for most applications. Matrix works well in drip tray systems, but you may find that the larger Pond Matrix is better suited for such applications.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

That's not their website and I've read everything on the seachem website, their forum, and spoke with the representative. Giving me the directions saying what I already know doesn't really help me out much....

If the pores clog up but there is no detectable ammonia or nitrite then I guess it's still doing it's job...Every media has pores that can clog.


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## willknowitall (Oct 3, 2010)

i use about 4 liters of matrix on my 75gal
can i be over doing biological filtering ?

about pores clogging ,
i rotate new matrix in constantly on differant trays
theres always older stuff , medium and newer stuff
when it gets really old i replace and soak in peroxide
rinse and let dry , after it looks like new


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

You can't overdo it


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## MChambers (May 26, 2009)

*Did you read this?*



justlikeapill said:


> That's not their website and I've read everything on the seachem website, their forum, and spoke with the representative. Giving me the directions saying what I already know doesn't really help me out much....
> 
> If the pores clog up but there is no detectable ammonia or nitrite then I guess it's still doing it's job...Every media has pores that can clog.


There is this particular article on the Seachem website, comparing Matrix to Substrat Pro:

http://www.seachem.com/support/SpecificSurface.pdf

which appears to support Seachem's claims. I use Matrix, and it seems to work well, but of course I'm not doing any scientific testing. It does seem logical to think that the smaller pores will get clogged over time and lose their effectiveness.


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## jetajockey (Aug 23, 2010)

Agreed. You can't overdo biofiltration, the important thing is having the surface area for the bacteria to colonize if/when needed. Depending on stocking levels, it may not need much at all, but better safe than sorry IMO.

Overall I would just be concerned with cost efficiency, I've never had a problem using scrubbies, bioballs, or wads and wads of filter floss. So I just go with what is available. I also emphasize understocking, though, so I'm sure that plays a part.


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## AquaCamp (May 31, 2010)

justlikeapill said:


> Here is the deal... There has to be a catch. I smell BS somehow... How can matrix really have ten times the biomedia capacity of Ehfisubstrat Pro?


FYI - Even in their self-funded study, they are not claiming 10X the biomedia capacity instead only around 4 - 4.5X, see the conclusion section. They are only claiming 10X the surface area, admitting that not all the area is biologically useful.

_BET surface area measurements indicate that Matrix contains nearly 10 times the specific surface area of Substrat Pro, and more than 20 times the specific surface area of MicroMec. Practically all the specific surface area of both Substrat Pro and MicroMec are in the range of pore diameters to be biologically useful, while some of the surface area of Matrix is in pores that are reserved for physical and chemical processes, not biological processes. Estimates from two different pore geometries indicate that Matrix contains between 4 to 4 1/2 _
_times the biologically active surface area of Substrat Pro, and between 8 to 9 times the biologically active surface area of MicroMec._

​It’s healthy to be skeptical when big business tries to use their own staff to conduct “scientific research” to show they are superior to the competition.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

If you want to spend money to spend money... go for it. But biomedia in a planted tank is not particularly that important. In my 75g I use 1 bag of ac110 rings. Thats it. I've never had any sort of instability related to it. You can likely reduce the amount you have and still be just fine, without wasting money on something else.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

I cut my biomedia down to 500 mls which fits into the basket that I keep my purigen in just fine.

There wasn't any rise in ammonia at all. I am wondering if I need any biomedia at all.

I view biomedia as heal insurance.... In case crap happens you'll be glad you had it, you know? Like when adding fish or a fish dying.

I am about to order ten Pygmy corydoras and am a little concerned about putting ten fish in at once with just 500 ml's of ehfisubstrat pro now.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

No matter how much bio media you have, you will have the same amount of bacteria in your tank. Biomedia attempts to culture it in one spot, but you can't stop it from growing on sponges, hoses, walls, substrate, and the like. If you have a decent plant load, you have lots of cushion right there.

Also, the best thing to do is twice daily ammonia testing(calibrated test) and water changes as needed. No matter how much media you have, this will not change the adding of more ammonia to the system. The level of bacteria depends on food, not homes for the bacteria...


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I use matrix and have never had any issues with anything in my tanks. I would say I rinse all of my bio-media with tank water every 4-6 months and have notices no issues with bio-media being clogged or settling.


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## [email protected] (Jul 17, 2008)

I goofed on the web site. I hope everyone will accept my apology for that. 
It should have been this one.
http://www.seachem.com/support/SpecificSurface.pdf 

This gave me a smile.
_A larger copy of the log differential volume plot for Matrix was photocopied onto 24 pound copy paper. The area under the entire curve was then cut out with scissors, and weighed. The result was 0.334 g. Another cut with the scissors produced the portion of the area that arose from pore diameters of 0.4 microns and less. This section of the curve weighed 0.133 g. This means that 0.133/0.334 = 0.3982 (or 39.82%) of the total volume was consumed by the pores of 0.4 microns or less. _


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

over_stocked said:


> Also, the best thing to do is twice daily ammonia testing(calibrated test) and water changes as needed. No matter how much media you have, this will not change the adding of more ammonia to the system. The level of bacteria depends on food, not homes for the bacteria...




You mean in the context of adding new fish right? Not in general.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

As far as testing.


justlikeapill said:


> You mean in the context of adding new fish right? Not in general.




Sent from my Dinc.

Sorry I was not clear in this statement. Yes, I meant in the context of adding fish. Otherwise... I only test research tanks... because I dose them at near toxic levels....


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## ReefkprZ (Aug 21, 2010)

over_stocked said:


> Sent from my Dinc.


I dont know what a dinc is but the first time I read it I was like.... whaaaat. he didnt seriously,.....


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## willknowitall (Oct 3, 2010)

over_stocked said:


> No matter how much bio media you have, you will have the same amount of bacteria in your tank. Biomedia attempts to culture it in one spot, but you can't stop it from growing on sponges, hoses, walls, substrate, and the like. If you have a decent plant load, you have lots of cushion right there.
> 
> Also, the best thing to do is twice daily ammonia testing(calibrated test) and water changes as needed. No matter how much media you have, this will not change the adding of more ammonia to the system. The level of bacteria depends on food, not homes for the bacteria...


sorry but this makes no sense at all
from what your saying you will have the same amount of bacteria on a gram of biomedia then a pound
yes bacteria will grow on sponge , gravel etc but there only so much surface area there
what happens when theres more ammonia nitrites available then that colonized area can devour 
'' biomedia attempts to culture it in one spot'' yes because the bacteria thrives in the highly porous high water flow area
''twice daily ammonia testing '' hah id rather have way more biomedia then could possibly be needed and not have to even think about it


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Your twice daily ammonia tearing comment really confused me as well... I have been keeping dish for a long time and have never tested ammonia except while cycling, or if i have a reason to test such as adding new fish or a fish dying...

I don't see a reason to test ammonia ever unless you suspect there is a problem or your cycling or changing something like the bioload or biomedia.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

willknowitall said:


> sorry but this makes no sense at all
> from what your saying you will have the same amount of bacteria on a gram of biomedia then a pound
> yes bacteria will grow on sponge , gravel etc but there only so much surface area there
> what happens when theres more ammonia nitrites available then that colonized area can devour
> ...


Ok... I think you have completely misunderstood how ammonia consuming bacteria work. Bacteria is not dependent on flow. The highly porous are you speak of has no properties that make it more likely for bacteria to congregate there... other than NOT being replaced or washed frequently. The twice daily testing is still needed during a cycling process... That is the only time I have ever tested ammonia. You could have 5 L of biomedia but if you dump a bunch of fish in the tank, you will have an ammonia spike. No one has ever proven in any meaningful way that you need X amount of biomedia per gallon or per oz of fish or per ppm of ammonia. You've given us nothing of use in this discussion. 




justlikeapill said:


> Your twice daily ammonia tearing comment really confused me as well... I have been keeping dish for a long time and have never tested ammonia except while cycling, or if i have a reason to test such as adding new fish or a fish dying...
> 
> *I don't see a reason to test ammonia ever unless you suspect there is a problem or your cycling or changing something like the bioload or biomedia.*


And this is the time I was referring to. If you are going to add 10 fish to your tank, making sure levels do not reach toxicity has nothing to do with having enough bio media. It has to do with keeping levels in check while allowing bacteria colonies to adapt to the size needed to keep ammonia in check. 

No mater how much bio media you have, you will NEVER have more bacteria than there is food to supply it. If fancy bio media was so essential, pot scrubbies wouldn't be one of the most popular medias in highly overstocked cichlid tanks. 

I'll say it again... if you add fish to your tank, the money is much better served watching ammonia levels and doing water changes to keep ammonia levels low than by adding bio media that has no bacteria on it... 



Look at it this way:
_Have you ever met anyone who said they couldn't keep their tank cycled because they did not have fancy enough bio media? _


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Thanks for the clarification, Justin. It sounded at first like you were suggesting to test twice daily every day forever. Sounded crazy 

So do I need biomedia at all? What's the point of it period in a shrimp tank? I uave five cories and just ordered ten Corydoras Pygmaeus, hopefully five will survive. 

Dk I need biomedia at all? Why not iust let the substrate act as the biomedia.... It seems to me that the bacteria colony count will rise as you remove biomedia from the filter to compensate.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

I think the convenience of biomedia is that if you happen to gravel vac or the like you have a little cushion somewhere else. That being said... I bet we have all ran tanks over stocked with just HOB filter.... I ran filters that I replaced the cartridges every other week... no bio media at all and I actually tested a ton back in those days....


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

I think biomedia is a sham of sorts. You should try to get enough in your tank that cleaning your filter isnt going to crash the whole thing. And by cleaning I dont mean a complete clean, but rather a rinse. Having a ton of biomedia in your filter will serve more of a purpose as a mechanical filter than actually benefiting anything. Like justin said, theres no more there than theres food for.
On a side note, a shrimp tank has a fairly small bioload and extra biomedia seems like a waste of equipment money. My shrimp tanks all run with a small HOB and have been fine for a long time.


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## willknowitall (Oct 3, 2010)

''youve given us nothing to use in this discussion''
thanks but speak for yourself
''bacteria is not dependent on flow''
try turning you filter off for a day and see what happens
you still didnt answer my question , what happenes when the surface of the gravel sponge, glass etc doesnt house enough bacteria to devour all the ammonia and nitrites
''but you can't stop it from growing on sponges, hoses, walls, substrate, and the like''
''The level of bacteria depends on food, not homes for the bacteria...''
well you contradicted yourself here 
sponges, walls substate and the like is a home for the bacteria


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

willknowitall said:


> ''youve given us nothing to use in this discussion''
> thanks but speak for yourself
> ''bacteria is not dependent on flow''
> try turning you filter off for a day and see what happens
> ...


This makes no sense at all and doesnt contribute to the topic in any way, shape, or form other than condescending argument.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

I agree. Chill... I don't want my thread locked. 

Getting angry over sponges... Ay dios mio.


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## willknowitall (Oct 3, 2010)

chad320 said:


> This makes no sense at all and doesnt contribute to the topic in any way, shape, or form other than condescending argument.


i think ''youve given us nothing in this conversation'' is condescending
ok ill chill , sorry if it seems out of hand , that comment set me off


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

The point that Justin and my own combined 40+ years of fishkeeping is trying to make is this. If a fish or shrimp dies, your tank has enough bacteria to adjust for the spike in ammonia. If a bunch of fish die, there is no point in having alot of biomedia in your filter because the bacteria simply arent there because there was previously not enough ammonia to support them. Would the extra remove ammonia sooner? Sure. By that time you should notice the deaths and could do water changes which would be quicker than the bacteria could reproduce rendering the extra biofiltration useless. Which is the way it should be done instead of relying on your filter to carry the extra weight, which also takes longer.


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## willknowitall (Oct 3, 2010)

chad320 said:


> The point that Justin and my own combined 40+ years of fishkeeping is trying to make is this. If a fish or shrimp dies, your tank has enough bacteria to adjust for the spike in ammonia. If a bunch of fish die, there is no point in having alot of biomedia in your filter because the bacteria simply arent there because there was previously not enough ammonia to support them. Would the extra remove ammonia sooner? Sure. By that time you should notice the deaths and could do water changes which would be quicker than the bacteria could reproduce rendering the extra biofiltration useless. Which is the way it should be done instead of relying on your filter to carry the extra weight, which also takes longer.


yes that makes perfect sense
though ive never had a bunch of fish die
just like a pill was asking about biomatrix and if he could use way less to to save filter-space, not overstocking or overfeeding to get a ammonia spike
overstock is saying you need none the way his argument goes
and im conter arguing your better off with alot 
its no big deal here


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

I agree with you. Alot IS better than none at all. I am with the side that says his $$ is better off spent on quality shrimps rather than on something thats going to be rendered useless in the long run. A shrimp tank has to be SEVERELY overstocked to make a boatload of biomedia useful. Its something better suited to reef tanks.


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## willknowitall (Oct 3, 2010)

chad320 said:


> I agree with you. Alot IS better than none at all. I am with the side that says his $$ is better off spent on quality shrimps rather than on something thats going to be rendered useless in the long run. A shrimp tank has to be SEVERELY overstocked to make a boatload of biomedia useful. Its something better suited to reef tanks.


why do you say rendered useless in the long run?
because you have more then is needed or because because the biomedia becomes less effective over time?

in my situation (and i admit it is over kill)ive got a 75 gal tank thats under-stocked with fish i think
ive got enough filtration to filter a 200 or bigger gal tank by filter manufacture specs
i didn't but out a ton of cash for this
ive got lots of available trays for filter media
biomatrix is cheap and as far as i know lasts forever (i soak old media in peroxide , rinse and let dry , after it looks like new)
what i want from my aquarium is absolutely crystal clear water , no diseases no dyeing fish or shrimp and ive got hundreds and hundreds ,anything else to me is a failure
my philosophy is better safe then sorry
in terms of filtration bio or otherwise i say the more the merrier
the only fish or shrimp that die in my tank die of old age
what i believe is this that a high points of ammonia etc that bacteria feed on they will multiply to eat up available food supply
when the food source diminishes they will go dormant they just dont die
if you do a 50 percent water change and theres 50 percent less food does 50 percent of the bacteria die off, i dont think so ,certainly not right away


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

From a cost effiency aspect you dont need alot in your filter. As I stated before its not going to help other than to become mechanical filtation. Maybe im missing the piont of where it might come in useful?


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

I am not filtering a pond here and the tank is 17 gallons... No matter what media I go with (and i already have the most expensive anyway) or how much i use its not going to break the bank.

I don't see why you say it's mechanical filtration...most people put it after their sponges/floss which is mechanical in order to keep it clean. It's purpose is to be a place for lots of bacteria to grow.

As I said earlier I just ordered ten Pygmy corydoras and am thinking of getting a few more otos. I have cut my biomedia in half and am using half a liter now. There was no rise in ammonia when removing the other half liter.

Now I am starting to think that biomedia is pointless in my situation and if I slowly remove it over a couple months, more bacteria will grow in the aquasoil to pick up the slack from the biomedia that was removed. Eventually all of the ehfisubstrat pro will be removed and the bacteria in my aquasoil will increase enough to basically function as my biomedia. Plus I wanted to get some Power Sand for more bacteria growth under the substrate.

Is my line of thinking correct?


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

Yes. That was exactly my piont when I said you dont want your tank to crash everytime you clean your filter. The idea is to get the bacteria to grow in your tank and keep your filter clean so your system isnt reliant solely on the bacteria in your filter.


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## willknowitall (Oct 3, 2010)

17 gal , you dont need very much
i use biomatrix here because its a third the price of eheim stuff
eheim stuff they say to change with new stuff every i dont know , 6 months i think?
where as biomatrix they say lasts forever 
i dont know but for the buck i go biomatrix
i stated much earier in this thread that i im useing way more biofilter then i probable need
maybe i should ues less and sub in more mechanical filtratuon


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## willknowitall (Oct 3, 2010)

like a pill wrote 
I was asking Seachem about their Matrix biomedia and I was told that one liter of Matrix was equivalent in surface area to TEN liters of Ehfisubstrat Pro.

well you could take there word for it , im sure they have run tests on it
its easy to do. hopfully there not bs ing us

to test something like that all one has to do is have two tanks same size
add the same water and the same size filter
in one put a lb of biomatrix the other ten of sbstrate pro or simular ratio
add the same amount and type of bacteria
add the same amount of ammonia and nitrates , nitrites , disolved organics
to each tank once a day , say enough to kill fish
wait a few weeks and do some water sample testing
this could also be done on different amounts of the same biomedia
say a oz in one and a lb in the other filter and see which one reduces the bioload faster
the test results could vary considerably depending on many factors such as tank size ,amounts of bioloads added , oxygen levels, ph , temperture

not something we really want to try at home :hihi:


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## Crispino L Ramos (Mar 29, 2008)

[quote - biomatrix is cheap and as far as i know lasts forever (i soak old media in peroxide , rinse and let dry , after it looks like new) - quote]

How does peroxide clear biomatrix pores from dirt? It could make the color lighter but clearing the tiny pores inside the spherical balls seems impossible.


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## willknowitall (Oct 3, 2010)

Crispino Ramos said:


> [quote - biomatrix is cheap and as far as i know lasts forever (i soak old media in peroxide , rinse and let dry , after it looks like new) - quote]
> 
> How does peroxide clear biomatrix pores from dirt? It could make the color lighter but clearing the tiny pores inside the spherical balls seems impossible.


i get crud on the surface which would block pores
the peroxide completely brakes it up 
when i look at container with soaked biomatrix all the crud has floated to the surface 
how deep this cleaning goes i dont know but it definitely clears of the stuff on surface leaving pores exposed
i would guess that when soaked it deep in biomtrix it would do the same , but cant confirm, i guess i could snap one in half and look at the before and after
peroxide breaks down organic material , oxidizes it, it works great for glass diffusers too , completely dissolves any bacteria , algae and stains 
much beter and not toxic like bleach 
ive tried bleach and soaked over night and get no results . the peroxide, instantly stuff starts floating to surface, try it


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