# Sudden discus death



## Jjonesls1 (Apr 26, 2017)

I've had my planted tank up and running for about 6 months now, and added some juvi discus about 3 months ago. I know, they say don't raise juvis in planted tanks... My fish have been doing great as have my tank, up until I got home from work this evening. 

My blue diamond, about 4" now, was floating belly up, little fin movement, barely breathing. He was fine last evening when I went to bed, and fine this morning when I fed them before work. Feeding normally, and acting completely normal.

I immediately removed him from the tank and placed him in a small 2 gal hospital tank I set up using some tank water. His belly was very bloated, and very dark grey/black in color. This wasn't looking good. I dosed the tank with Epsom salt, and covered it with a towel, hoping he would recover. I came back to check on him an hour later and he was dead. What could come on so quick as to kill a seemingly healthy fish this quickly?

My water parameters have been rock steady for months. Ph at 6.5, I change water 50% twice a week, nitrates and nitrites nearly 0, no change in water hardness.

Only two variables out of the norm are an albino bn pleco I introduced two days ago, and some new food I tried (discus gold pellets, yes I softened them). Could the bn have sucked on him? Excessive bloat from the new food?

Should I be concerned about my other discus? I have 6 other juvis all around 4", who all seem to be acting normally. But then again so was this fish less than 24 hra ago.. Are there any preventative measures I should take with the tank?

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## livingf1t (Dec 7, 2016)

What's the temp in the tank? 


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## Jjonesls1 (Apr 26, 2017)

livingf1t said:


> What's the temp in the tank?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


88* F

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## livingf1t (Dec 7, 2016)

That's really strange for it to happen so quickly, I have 8 discus and found that they weren't doing to well but that was because of the temp in the tank, I would say maybe constipation but it wouldn't have died so quickly. I would keep an eye out with the others, and at first sign of not eating I would put them in the hospital tank and start treatment. 


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Is there a bully in your tank? 


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## Jjonesls1 (Apr 26, 2017)

livingf1t said:


> Is there a bully in your tank?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have one fish (orange with black bars) that was a bully early on. I only had 5 discus at the time. I added two more, and rescaped the tank, and this seems to have solved the aggression issue. He is still noticeably larger than the other fish, and out competes them for food, but hasn't displayed aggressive behavior in over a month.

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## livingf1t (Dec 7, 2016)

Jjonesls1 said:


> I have one fish (orange with black bars) that was a bully early on. I only had 5 discus at the time. I added two more, and rescaped the tank, and this seems to have solved the aggression issue. He is still noticeably larger than the other fish, and out competes them for food, but hasn't displayed aggressive behavior in over a month.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk




I have one bully that has gotten to the point of other fish not eating but as soon as I put them all in a hospital tank it stopped. I honestly don't know how that discus died so quickly? Just keep an eye on them and hopefully it was only that one 


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## Jjonesls1 (Apr 26, 2017)

A photo of my tank from about a week ago for reference. Any further insight on the fish health would be much appreciated. I'm hesitant to seek advice on simplydiscus or similar forums as I will just be admonished for raising them in anything other than a bare tank.









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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Well I don't know the cause, but the speed is probably temperature related. High temps are good for growing out discus because it keeps their metabolism very high which is good for growth and multiple feedings. However it also means that any issues are vastly accelerated. Especially if the issue is parasite or disease related as they multiply and work much faster at higher temps.


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## SKYE.__.HIGH (Mar 18, 2017)

May I ask what size tank that is?


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## Jjonesls1 (Apr 26, 2017)

SKYE.__.HIGH said:


> May I ask what size tank that is?


This is my tank: https://www.cadlights.com/index.php...id=315&zenid=14edce26e0e716ba9d19367911b3ba77

Versa 92G

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## nel (Jan 23, 2016)

I'm not sure with this photo, but they look a little bit skinny (their body shapes aren't perfect too, but maybe that's just because they're young). Are you feeding them any frozen food? 
Did you quarantine the pleco? Discus can be really sensitive so most people wouldn't recommend any other fish with them, but you are braking the taboo with planted tank, so why not other fish ;-)


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## Jjonesls1 (Apr 26, 2017)

nel said:


> I'm not sure with this photo, but they look a little bit skinny (their body shapes aren't perfect too, but maybe that's just because they're young). Are you feeding them any frozen food?
> Did you quarantine the pleco? Discus can be really sensitive so most people wouldn't recommend any other fish with them, but you are braking the taboo with planted tank, so why not other fish ;-)


I feed mostly frozen foods (blood worms and beef heart). I could actually use some ideas on how to vary their diet a bit more. Ya, I'm breaking all of the "rules". I have the pleco, as well as some Cardinals, a clown loach, and a couple dwarf gourami. The discus were added after the other fish with the exception of the pleco, and there have been zero issues up until this point.

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## nel (Jan 23, 2016)

Jjonesls1 said:


> I feed mostly frozen foods (blood worms and beef heart). I could actually use some ideas on how to vary their diet a bit more. Ya, I'm breaking all of the "rules". I have the pleco, as well as some Cardinals, a clown loach, and a couple dwarf gourami. The discus were added after the other fish with the exception of the pleco, and there have been zero issues up until this point.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Maybe try adding some brine shrimp and other tiny scary monsters to their diet. Something with garlic wouldn't hurt too, it helps keeping fish in good health. I don't own discus now, but for my fish I just buy every frozen food that's the right size. This way I have 5-6 different types of frozen food, another 5 types of dry food and I don't have to worry if something is missing in any of them.


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## livingf1t (Dec 7, 2016)

nel said:


> I'm not sure with this photo, but they look a little bit skinny (their body shapes aren't perfect too, but maybe that's just because they're young). Are you feeding them any frozen food?
> 
> Did you quarantine the pleco? Discus can be really sensitive so most people wouldn't recommend any other fish with them, but you are braking the taboo with planted tank, so why not other fish ;-)




Talk about taboo! Lol 
!

















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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

There are going to be times when this happens and we never know what killed the fish. I have a 125 with two types of African cichlids. The main interest is the large open water Protomelas insignus with assorted mbuna who stay down in and around the rocks, mostly. All was going well with no signs of trouble but one day I heard water splashing and got there just in time to see the largest insignus head down and out of control as he had some type of spasm, stroke or heart attack. 
No warning signs, illness, etc. but just dead within less than five minutes. 
When a human does that, we do an autopsy to try to find a cause but in fish we just have to shake our head and move on.


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## TexMoHoosier (Dec 14, 2016)

Was your substrate recently disturbed either with a water change or by your pleco? If you have anything more than a thin layer of sand, you need to be extremely careful about disturbing the substrate because trapped gases such as H2S can be released and they are toxic. If that particular fish was above the substrate when it was disturbed and got a good dose than that could be the cause. I speak from experience...I got too aggressive with disturbing my substrate one time and lost a discus and a few cardinals that were hanging around where I was stirring things up. They started acting sick with in an hour and died within about 10 hours.


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## Jjonesls1 (Apr 26, 2017)

TexMoHoosier said:


> Was your substrate recently disturbed either with a water change or by your pleco? If you have anything more than a thin layer of sand, you need to be extremely careful about disturbing the substrate because trapped gases such as H2S can be released and they are toxic. If that particular fish was above the substrate when it was disturbed and got a good dose than that could be the cause. I speak from experience...I got too aggressive with disturbing my substrate one time and lost a discus and a few cardinals that were hanging around where I was stirring things up. They started acting sick with in an hour and died within about 10 hours.


Interesting. My substrate is flourite. I vaccum the exposed gravel on water changes, so that it's cycling through the siphon tube to get the gunk out. This didn't occur immediately after a water change though, it was 3 days after, the day before my next scheduled change... Should I consider a burrowing snail that cleans sub surface instead of this aggressive vac method?

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## flukekiller (Jun 4, 2013)

you can actually do or get a vet to do a necropsy(i think thats what it is called)

but did someone say taboo...

Bump:


Jjonesls1 said:


> Interesting. My substrate is flourite. I vaccum the exposed gravel on water changes, so that it's cycling through the siphon tube to get the gunk out. This didn't occur immediately after a water change though, it was 3 days after, the day before my next scheduled change... Should I consider a burrowing snail that cleans sub surface instead of this aggressive vac method?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


do you use root tabs? if you vacuum too much, same as 
releasing gases, you are releasing all the ferts from the 
tabs much quicker into the water column.


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## Jjonesls1 (Apr 26, 2017)

flukekiller said:


> you can actually do or get a vet to do a necropsy(i think thats what it is called)
> 
> but did someone say taboo...
> 
> ...


Too late for the necropsy. I do use root tabs, but not in the areas that receive heavy vac. I only disturb substrate in the non planted areas (under the canopy on the right side) my flow is also directed to leave any debris that is too heavy to make it in to the overflow on this bare gravel side for easy clean up.

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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

With the amount of circulation many of us have, I can't see a gas coming from the sub killing one fish and not the total tank with the smaller, generally weaker fish. I've totally stopped deep vaccing the sub once I have roots down there. With dirt tanks, I don't think anybody would consider trying it. With all the various people using all kinds of things on the bottom and then topping with different stuff, I'm leaning more and more away from the gas bubble poison thinking as there are certainly lots of people who do not stir the sub. 
I think it may be too easy to connect the dots in the wrong way when we do have a fish die for unknown reasons. Thinking of how many young healthy athletes suddenly drop over dead, even with all the work we do on human health, it doesn't surprise me at all when fish do the same.


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## TINNGG (Mar 9, 2005)

There's also another possibility - a blow to the head will kill a fish, and a fish being chased (or sometimes the chaser) does not always watch where it's going. I had a shebunkin male hit the tank brace and die shortly afterward. He was chasing a youngish butterfly koi in a misguided attempt to mate. Also have had several angels die from what could only be head injuries - watched one female aggressively pecking at the male's head, not too long afterward, he was hanging at the surface and died a short time later.


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## Jjonesls1 (Apr 26, 2017)

Update: all other fish in the tank are doing well, and appear 100% normal. All I can do is chalk it up to some freak injury or something. I'm still going to keep a very close eye on things for the next few days.

Side issue, although potentially related. The discus have started hunting the Cardinals in the past week. I'm down from 20 to ~6. 3 have jumped out, presumably being chased, and I have found several on the tank floor with their bellies eaten out. The chasing seems to begin late in the evening. Is this a sign that my fish aren't getting enough food, or just their aggressive nature now that they are a bit larger?

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## nel (Jan 23, 2016)

They will hunt fish that can be eaten. When I had discus (in middle school, bad idea) with Cardinals, discus were hunting in pairs tearing Cardinals in two... It didn't happen at the start, just when discus became large enough to eat them.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

In fish, there are some pretty clear groups at times like this. Cardinals are among the "food" group and most any larger fish eater will go for them as a natural move.


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## TexMoHoosier (Dec 14, 2016)

Jjonesls1 said:


> Interesting. My substrate is flourite. I vaccum the exposed gravel on water changes, so that it's cycling through the siphon tube to get the gunk out. This didn't occur immediately after a water change though, it was 3 days after, the day before my next scheduled change... Should I consider a burrowing snail that cleans sub surface instead of this aggressive vac method?


I would avoid a burrowing snail...may stir up toxins and cause other problems. Best thing to do when you have a deep substrate is to avoid disturbing anything below 1/2 deep as much as possible, and if you do disturb it only disturb a few square inches in a given water change. Good to hear your other fish are doing OK. Getting poisoned is only one of a number of possibilities. As someone mentioned, a head injury could also be to blame, either because something random spooked the fish or because your water parameters made it extra jumpy. Discus are notorious for being particularly antsy for a whole host of reasons.


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## nel (Jan 23, 2016)

TexMoHoosier said:


> I would avoid a burrowing snail...may stir up toxins and cause other problems. Best thing to do when you have a deep substrate is to avoid disturbing anything below 1/2 deep as much as possible, and if you do disturb it only disturb a few square inches in a given water change. Good to hear your other fish are doing OK. Getting poisoned is only one of a number of possibilities. As someone mentioned, a head injury could also be to blame, either because something random spooked the fish or because your water parameters made it extra jumpy. Discus are notorious for being particularly antsy for a whole host of reasons.


I don't agree about the substrate. Burrowing snails and plants keep the substrate oxygenated and safe. Actually for 10 years in my tank there has been 10 cm thick fine sand substrate with MTS and it works as another biofilter for my tank ;-) never had any problems with toxic gasses and MTS help utilising uneaten food too.


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## lksdrinker (Feb 12, 2014)

Jjonesls1 said:


> I'm hesitant to seek advice on simplydiscus or similar forums as I will just be admonished for raising them in anything other than a bare tank.


I agree that they can be a harsh bunch over there. But there is a reason so many of those members are able to keep/raise/grow such beautiful discus. Sounds like you essentially already know that you're doing something wrong and are afraid of admitting the truth. Whether or not the type of tank you chose to raise out juvenile discus in caused the death is certainly debatable. But, you're already starting at a disadvantage by not following the advice of those who have crossed this path many times before you and learned from their mistakes.


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## Jjonesls1 (Apr 26, 2017)

lksdrinker said:


> I agree that they can be a harsh bunch over there. But there is a reason so many of those members are able to keep/raise/grow such beautiful discus. Sounds like you essentially already know that you're doing something wrong and are afraid of admitting the truth. Whether or not the type of tank you chose to raise out juvenile discus in caused the death is certainly debatable. But, you're already starting at a disadvantage by not following the advice of those who have crossed this path many times before you and learned from their mistakes.


I wouldn't go as far to say that I'm doing something "wrong" in the way I chose to raise my fish. I accept that there are compromises, and added challenge in raising discus in a PT. 

Am I looking to raise NADA show winning discus? Absolutely not. Am I looking to have an award winning PT? Nope. 

I accept that raising discus places limitations on my tank, and choosing to have a PT presents limitations for my discus. Am I looking to have my cake and eat it too? Hell ya.

To each their own. I'm happy to report that all of my remaining fish are happy and doing well. I'll chalk my lost fish up to a freak accident for now. I am, however, keeping a close eye on things.









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