# Horrible stinky green slime..?



## spinjector (Mar 20, 2005)

What is this horrible stinky green slime I have that's starting to coat rocks, plants, & glass in my tank? This is not like the usual algae I am used to. It started taking over after I stopped adding CO2. Water test looks ok, ph, kh, gh, no2, no3 all look good. Perhaps my ferts are out of whack?


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Sounds like BGA:

http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm


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## DiscusIt'sWhats4DinneR (Apr 25, 2008)

cyanobacteria...

i would first remove as much as possible. then dose maracyn half strength for a week.
then it will go away.

otherwise you can cover the tank for 3+ days without letting in any light whatsoever. no peeking, no fish feeding. then hope that it is all dead.


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## Arakkis (Dec 7, 2007)

erithro will also kill it in low doses


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

It is usually a sign of low nitrates with too much light. If you dose the antibiotics it will still come back after they have worn off. Threat the root of the issue, im betting its nitrates.


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## EdTheEdge (Jan 25, 2007)

bsmith782 said:


> It is usually a sign of low nitrates with too much light. If you dose the antibiotics it will still come back after they have worn off. Threat the root of the issue, im betting its nitrates.


That's what I thought too. I recently had a terrible outbreak of this horrid stuff. It covered everything in my 25Gal. I think it started when the tank caught some direct sunlight from a recent tree trimming outside. I upped the nitrates to ridiculous levels and cut back on lighting, removed as much as possible and it barely put a dent in it. The only thing that worked this time around (I've had this before twice a long long LONG time ago) was Maracyn.


I still think that it is caused by a crash in nitrates though... I just couldn't pump enough in to reduce the progression of the cyano.... It's amazing how fast this stuff can spread!!!!!


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I never had it terribly bad. Some on the hardscape and a little on the substrate. 

If it's terrible nuke it, if is slight to moderate I would up the nitrates I HATE using medications in my tanks.


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## spinjector (Mar 20, 2005)

Ahhhhh...so it's a bacteria then. Ok I'll try the Marycin and see what happens. I know I've heard of cyanobacteria on the science shows on tv, but I can't remember the details; I'll have to Wiki-it and do some reading. I seem to recall that BGA is the force behind the new algae blooms in the west end of Lake Erie. News reports say they're so big that you can see the mats of algae in satellite images.

So what's a good nitrate level? I've always aimed for 20ppm. Is that too low?

What about water hardness? Will too hi/low GH or KH exacerbate the problem..?

To make a short story long...

After reading all of your posts, I see what happened now. The tank I'm having trouble with is one of those old 15-gallon "fashion columns" from the early 90's with the shiny black formica stand, and integrated hood/light. A friend gave it to me a few years ago, and it's been happy in the corner of my living room since day one.

I tore the tank down and cleaned it up recently, vacuumed under the stand, cleaned out the muck under the undergravel filter, divided the plants, added some new ones from other tanks, reset the rocks, scrubbed the glass with salt, cleaned it with glass cleaner... Ya know... the whole 9-yard detail job on an old tank that needed a facelift.

The hood has (had) a built-in light with a little 12" fluorescent tube. But strangely, over the years, the white plastic panel that held the ballast & sockets in place inside, slowly broke down and became soft & leather-like and was actually sagging. It was slowly dissolving. It sagged so much that the ends of the tube were touching the clear plastic lighting diffuser and melting it a little.

So I ripped all the old hardware out of the hood, with the intention of replacing it with some new parts - maybe LED. But I haven't done that yet, and for the time being, I'd taped bubble wrap on top to cut down heat & moisture loss, and set a Coralife 36-watt CF fixture on top, with two small 10-watt halogen lights to fill out the light and make it look more sunny.

Then I switched my yeast-CO2 from a 2-liter pepsi bottle to a 1-gallon wine jug, and upped the ferts a bit. Well, the plants loved this new setup, and went crazy. The crypts sent out runners all over, the swords shot right up to the water surface, and the random unidentifiable aponogetons from the "grow your own plants" pack from the pet-chain all shot up flower pods and bloomed. I even got to that fantastic stage of little streams of bubbles rising from the plants. At that point I allowed myself that happy-smug feeling you get when your tank is healthy and looks great, and the plants are healthy and the fishies are happy.

Well... After a while, I'm like "ok looks nice but getting out of hand". So I trimmed back the overgrowth, cut back the CO2 and ferts, but kept the light. All seemed ok for a bit, but then I started having problems with green hair algae - and I mean it went crazy. At one point there were MTS snails that got snagged in it and were actually hanging from plant leaves like little cristmas ornaments.

After a couple weeks of frustrating manual removal, I broke down and went to the dark side. I got out the algicide-drops. I added a single drop per day until the GHA started to fizzle, and left it there.

Again, all was good for a while, but then bright green spots started growing on the plants near the light. I pruned those leaves right off, but then the green spots started growing on the rock formations I'd arranged on the bottom of the tank. It was spreading like mold on a loaf of bread, and started to cover the glass and peeled off in slimy sheets when I tried to scrape it away. I upped the algicide drops again, but that didn't help.

So that's where I am...

Off to the LFS today for some Marycin & something with potassium nitrate. I hope I don't have to use stump remover from Home Despot. =-)


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Nitrates above 10ppm will suffice. Just make sure your testing equipment is not expired.


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## frozenbarb (Dec 16, 2006)

What does it smell like? 

I know Greenwater smells horribly like grass.


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## DiscusIt'sWhats4DinneR (Apr 25, 2008)

Arakkis said:


> erithro will also kill it in low doses


 maracyn is just a brand name for erithromycin.


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## spinjector (Mar 20, 2005)

frozenbarb said:


> What does it smell like?


Well... Here's the closest description I can come up with... Do you know what swamp muck smells like? That stinky brown slimy muddy muck, with dead rotten leaves in it, that you find in swamps and near slow moving streams? You can also find it when you clean out your gutters and/or rain barrel..?

It smells like a cross between that swamp slop and rotten eggs. :confused1:

Update: I was at a friend's last night and put my sweatshirt on to leave, and could smell it on my clothes..!!! It sticks!!! I'm not sure if my sweatshirt absorbed the smell from just being on the hook near the tank, or if I was working on the tank and got some of the green slime on my sweatshirt. It's in the washer as we speak... :icon_redf


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## spinjector (Mar 20, 2005)

DiscusIt'sWhats4DinneR said:


> maracyn is just a brand name for erithromycin.


Ahh ok cool... I was wondering that. Thanks.


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## ER9 (Aug 2, 2008)

EdTheEdge said:


> That's what I thought too. I recently had a terrible outbreak of this horrid stuff. It covered everything in my 25Gal. I think it started when the tank caught some direct sunlight from a recent tree trimming outside. I upped the nitrates to ridiculous levels and cut back on lighting, removed as much as possible and it barely put a dent in it. The only thing that worked this time around (I've had this before twice a long long LONG time ago) was Maracyn.
> 
> 
> I still think that it is caused by a crash in nitrates though... I just couldn't pump enough in to reduce the progression of the cyano.... It's amazing how fast this stuff can spread!!!!!


maybe, maybe not. everyone seems to say (raise your nitrates to get rid of it) but i'm not sure thats the case....or not entirely. i recently read a technical paper from the state of Indiana. http://www.spea.indiana.edu/clp/WAT...tment of blue green algae in lakes of oregon' they did studies (because its a huge problem in their lakes) and found out the cause is high nitrates and phosphates along with warmer water and high disolved organic matter in the water. iv'e battled this stuff endlessly this year and tried elevating nitrates and it never made one ounce of difference. from my experiences so far...my hunch is starting to convince me that the dissolved organic matter plays a huge role.

i had other links i didn't bookmark that through research seemed to conclude similar findings. i dont know where the popular opinion came from or where/when it started that its caused by high nitrates. i wonder if anyone ever actually tested this theory and if we all havn't been parroting (well intentioned) bad information all these years. 

i came across another paper or maybe it was the indiana paper that suggested that the ratio of nitrogen to phosphate may play a role as well. it gets confusing because theres even evidence that seasonal light cycles may play a factor. its also noticed it tends to affect certain global latitudes at certain times of the year. thus light spectrum may also be a factor...specifically the 5000k- range.

interestingly enough...mine started in a small corner of my tank that gets hit with sunlight from a window across the room. it started in my amazonia aquasoil below the water line and worked its way up tp the surface.


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## EdTheEdge (Jan 25, 2007)

ER9 said:


> maybe, maybe not. everyone seems to say (raise your nitrates to get rid of it) but i'm not sure thats the case....or not entirely. i recently read a technical paper from the state of Indiana. http://www.spea.indiana.edu/clp/WAT...tment of blue green algae in lakes of oregon' they did studies (because its a huge problem in their lakes) and found out the cause is high nitrates and phosphates along with warmer water and high disolved organic matter in the water. iv'e battled this stuff endlessly this year and tried elevating nitrates and it never made one ounce of difference. from my experiences so far...my hunch is starting to convince me that the dissolved organic matter plays a huge role.
> 
> i had other links i didn't bookmark that through research seemed to conclude similar findings. i dont know where the popular opinion came from or where/when it started that its caused by high nitrates. i wonder if anyone ever actually tested this theory and if we all havn't been parroting (well intentioned) bad information all these years.
> 
> ...


Intresting ER9. Could very well be the case. I did install a new heater and upped the temps by a degree or two just about the time of the outbrake. This was also about the same time that the tree timming happened also.

I wonder.....


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

ER9 said:


> and found out the cause is *high nitrates and phosphates along with warmer water and high disolved organic matter in the water.* iv'e battled this stuff endlessly this year and tried elevating nitrates and it never made one ounce of difference. from my experiences so far...my hunch is starting to convince me that the dissolved organic matter plays a huge role.


Personally, I too believe that there is more to a BGA outbreak then _just_ low N03. But I think that the High N, P and organics just shows that the system is out of whack. Not that High N _or_ P _or_ organics *cause* BGA. There are so many interactions with these chemicals (ferts) that there's a reason why there is High N and/or P and/or organics. There's plants _and_ BGA _and_ whatever other algae--so why are these things not cleaning up the excess ferts as nature designed? There should be an explosion of plant growth, but there's not...why? Because things are out of whack....and the evidence for that _*is*_ the high N, P, organics. It's not the excess that's showing it face....it's the limitation or hidden excess that's causing the high N, P and organics. In other words, the plants are stalled for some reason.

I'm not saying that all of these issues come down to K, but I will use K as an easy example. From what I've learned (academically and through experience) is that K is a lot trickier than many realize. K deficiency shows itself by building N and P along with the actual K mobilization results (holes in older leaves, etc). K deficiency will stall the uptake of P and therefore N--and the plants will stall....favoring one type of algae or another. Not that it will germinate, but just creating conditions that are less favorable to plants which creates conditions more favorable to 1 or more types of algae. Stalling the uptake of P and N will also stall the uptake of micros. It's a chain reaction.

K excess can cause Mg deficiency which will cause Ca deficiency which will cause Fe deficiency...Been there, done that and actually going through it now. I have been a big "extra K" doser. But could never figure out why I had Ca/mg issues and eventually Fe issues--no matter _*what*_ I did. It also did not matter what kind of water I used--RO, RODI, Either one reconstituted, hard tap, distilled. I have finally discovered the "Extra K" error of my ways. *Finally!* Even though Excess K will show up as various *other* deficiencies--*it will also stall N and P uptake *(little to no Ca, Mg, Fe and other micros uptake), so plant growth will stall--and conditions again will begin to favor 1 or more types of algae.

Same principle can be applied to Ca, Mg, micros--when something is out of whack the result will stall the plant and favor algae. Stalling the plant will generally cause N to build and P to either build or deplete--depending upon the cause.

Also, P starts to create a "buffer" above ~5ppm--from what I understand. What's it buffer? Heck, I don't know yet....







...but it's on the list of things to find out. :thumbsup: So, if P is already high and creating a "buffer" will that cause N to be high also? Will it cause K to build? Will it stall the plant growth? I don't have those answers. Maybe Tom will break it down for us.

My point is that there are so many interactions and chain reactions...that I think that report is from folks _wanting_ an "excess" to be the cause...and just attributing the high N and/or P to the "cause" of the BGA. It's an old-school thought pattern and one that hasn't died yet. In other words, they go in with preconceived notions and locate an answer that fits *what they already believe*--instead of actually locating the answer.


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## EdTheEdge (Jan 25, 2007)

Naja002 said:


> Personally, I too believe that there is more to a BGA outbreak then _just_ low N03. But I think that the High N, P and organics just shows that the system is out of whack. Not that High N _or_ P _or_ organics *cause* BGA. There are so many interactions with these chemicals (ferts) that there's a reason why there is High N and/or P and/or organics. There's plants _and_ BGA _and_ whatever other algae--so why are these things not cleaning up the excess ferts as nature designed? There should be an explosion of plant growth, but there's not...why? Because things are out of whack....and the evidence for that _*is*_ the high N, P, organics. It's not the excess that's showing it face....it's the limitation or hidden excess that's causing the high N, P and organics. In other words, the plants are stalled for some reason.
> 
> I'm not saying that all of these issues come down to K, but I will use K as an easy example. From what I've learned (academically and through experience) is that K is a lot trickier than many realize. K deficiency shows itself by building N and P along with the actual K mobilization results (holes in older leaves, etc). K deficiency will stall the uptake of P and therefore N--and the plants will stall....favoring one type of algae or another. Not that it will germinate, but just creating conditions that are less favorable to plants which creates conditions more favorable to 1 or more types of algae. Stalling the uptake of P and N will also stall the uptake of micros. It's a chain reaction.
> 
> ...


Hmmm... now I'm more confused than ever. :confused1: Thanks Naja! :smile:


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

It ain't hard, but it ain't easy either. roud: Everything effects everything else so-to-speak. The reason I suggest people test for N and P is because that gives an idea of what's going on. If N and P are building--K is probably limited...meaning add more K. If N is building and P is limited--then P is probably limited...meaning add more P which will add more K.

The point is that there are so many interactions.....that something like an Fe deficiency may actually be a K excess, Mg deficiency, Ca dieficiency, etc. So, just because the plant is _showing_ FE deficiency--does not mean that Fe is deficient in the water column or substrate--it just means that for some reason the plant is unable to get sufficient Fe--either because it's limited _*or*_ because of some _*other*_ deficiency/excess.

And all of this is without even getting into Boron, Zinc, etc. et al......:thumbsup:

I think Tom's overall intent with EI is to eliminate the need to understand all of this stuff, so that more people can just have a "pretty tank"....making planted tank keeping a more popular and available hobby.


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## ER9 (Aug 2, 2008)

Naja002 said:


> Personally...........


good points..... i remember working for a commercial landscape company years ago. the bane of our existence was this very issue. we would have landscapes poorly planted/designed/established and all of a sudden a $50k planting of shrubbery or whatever, would suddenly start to die. more often than not is was due do a particular deficiency that would lock up plant growth precisly as described. many times we couldn't figure out the particular nuance affecting the plants and would loose huge, expensive landscaped areas. it was a nightmare when it happened. it makes sense that it would also happen in the aquatic world as well. a bit unsettling though because of the difficulty i remember in diagnosing the exact cause. you couldn't just throw everything you had at the problem...doing such could cause things to get worse and spiral out of control. interestingly enough in the terrestrial plant world...more often than not it was a problem with the substrate that was eithe blocking nutrient uptake or was such a quality it would effect the plant in one way or another sending this balance haywire.

very interesting way to approach aquatic plants i must add. looking for obvious problems as a possible symptom of another, instead of the main cause. may help prevent a more serious one down the line.

i cant comment on the outcome of the study adn the validity of the results as i'm not knowledgable enough but can say, even considering your point about an imbalance issue...i seem to be noticing my BGA slows down its progress after a good tank cleaning (gravel vac, filter rinse etc...) my hunch still seems to be blaming elevated organics. i'm not sure what causes this problem though....why are there elevated disolved organics in the first place? get complicated...


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

ER9 said:


> good points..... i remember working for a commercial landscape company years ago. the bane of our existence was this very issue. we would have landscapes poorly planted/designed/established and all of a sudden a $50k planting of shrubbery or whatever, would suddenly start to die. more often than not is was due do a particular deficiency that would lock up plant growth precisly as described. many times we couldn't figure out the particular nuance affecting the plants and would loose huge, expensive landscaped areas. it was a nightmare when it happened. it makes sense that it would also happen in the aquatic world as well. a bit unsettling though because of the difficulty i remember in diagnosing the exact cause. you couldn't just throw everything you had at the problem...doing such could cause things to get worse and spiral out of control. interestingly enough in the terrestrial plant world...more often than not it was a problem with the substrate that was eithe blocking nutrient uptake or was such a quality it would effect the plant in one way or another sending this balance haywire.


I'm glad that we basically agree. I certainly don't have all the answers, but I do believe that I am slowly piecing things together. Shoot, another 40-50yrs and I should have it all worked out!







I too believe that high organics plays a large role in BGA--at least in a natural system. In our systems I think it's mostly a lack of proper maintenance--ie, our own fault.






ER9 said:


> very interesting way to approach aquatic plants i must add. looking for obvious problems as a possible symptom of another, instead of the main cause. may help prevent a more serious one down the line.


Honestly, I see it really as the only approach. It's the difference between a really green thumb, a green thumb and a brown thumb. BTW I'm still working on the green thumb and really green thumb! :thumbsup: I'm at the yellow-green thumb stage right now I think. Anyway, it comes down to looking at _*all*_ of the symptoms and piecing things together--which requires an understanding of all the various interactions--something I don't have yet. But in my case, I've been a very liberal K doser....I mean more is better right? Uh, no. But I've known this about myself. I have hard water which long ago seemed to be improved by adding some extra Mg....so I've always kept that in mind. Then there's the Ca/Mg ratio or no ratio...yes/no....maybe....huh? please, make up my mind. In one setup I had bacopa growing in white. Fe deficiency, right? Yep, so why didn't adding more Fe and/or micros help? Plus the plants were showing Ca deficiency....as I dumped in more K. That setup was RO, RODI, reconstituted, and eventually tap. Nothing helped. Nothing mattered. Everything started stunting and turning to chit. As I kept adding extra K. That setup eventually faded into the sunset and I never did figure out what the problem was......except now in hindsight. Same issues with my current highlight setup---constant frickin' Ca deficiency!







Sheesh. The plants leaves were clearly showing Ca deficiency. But adding Mg really wasn't helping. Neither was adding Ca, or trying to create a ratio or making sure that there was just, you know..."Enough" of each. Then the clear Fe deficiency started showing up in the _*white*_ tips of the UG. So, what the heck is going on???....everything is getting *worse* and nothing is getting better.......as I continue to dump in more K. :icon_eek: Finally after researching around....I discovered K excess. Once I started to piece everything together....it all fell into place and made *perfect* sense--past and present.

Point is, in my case: I knew I was a very liberal K doser. I could clearly see the signs of Ca deficiency and eventually the obvious signs of Fe deficiency were just that--obvious. But treating the symptoms directly didn't help--in fact: it made things worse. And this was all in one setup after another. So, there _*had*_ to be something else going on. And the root problem was: Me. I simply didn't understand enough to piece it all together, and I did have preconceived notions. Now that I have--things are coming together! :thumbsup: My only issue at this point is to try to determine a good K amount to target....right now, I'm looking at 15-20ppm/wk.

So, honestly, I don't know any other way. If I blindly follow EI or PPS or whatever....things will generally work out pretty good. But what happens when things start falling apart? How do I put them all back together? Major reset WC and time. Otherwise, I need to be able to "grow the plants"...in order to do that...I think I need a decent understanding of what's going on.




ER9 said:


> i cant comment on the outcome of the study adn the validity of the results as i'm not knowledgable enough but can say, even considering your point about an imbalance issue...i seem to be noticing my BGA slows down its progress after a good tank cleaning (gravel vac, filter rinse etc...) my hunch still seems to be blaming elevated organics. i'm not sure what causes this problem though....why are there elevated disolved organics in the first place? get complicated...


IMO there are elevated organics--because the system is out of whack. To the best of my knowledge, even today, most of the research available points to "Excess P" as the *cause* of algae. TB has disproven that, but old myths die hard and much of what these grad students and Ph.d's read (research) is that "Excess P" is the culprit. So, they walk in believing that "Excess P" is the cause....what do they find? Excess P and algae.....what do they conclude? Excess P is the *cause* of the algae. They are just perpetuating an already disproven thought process. So, until the bulk of research material clears the air and sets the bulk of folks on the right track--the myth will live on. In short: Excess P is the symptom, not the *cause*....:thumbsup:


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Naja002 said:


> Also, P starts to create a "buffer" above ~5ppm--from what I understand. What's it buffer? Heck, I don't know yet....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


=



Tom Barr said:


> Discus buffer by SeaChem and other pH lowering chemicals have various PO4 buffers in them and these can form a non carbonate alkalinity. That's how theyn target a pH of 5.8 without CO2 and why it messes with CO23 at high levels if you use the tank's KH reading. It gives a false positive CO2 reading, you think there's more CO2 than is really there.
> 
> Peat/ADA AS/some soils do the same thing.
> Tap waters can have high PO4 they sometimes add it for corrosion control.


Phosphate reading too high

Apparently, it just acts as a pH buffer and skews the Kh/pH/C02 chart. But ~100ppm or more starts causing salt stress on the plants:



Tom Barr said:


> Massive might be over say, 5ppm of PO4.............
> The point where it starts to effect planted tanks is when it starts acting like a buffer.
> There's no toxic effects I know of or am aware of other than salt stress, which means 100ppms and more on any plant, algae or critter.


Effect of massive amounts of phosphate? 





Tom Barr said:


> It will act as a weak acid, so it will reduce pH, not increase it. You will think you have more CO2 than normal.
> 
> PO4 has little other physiological effect on plants, or critters.
> 10-20-50ppm etc, there's no toxicity data at high levels. Well, it acts like NaCl once you start talking about Salinity and reaching parts per thousand........quite hard to do that with a typical dosing error
> ...


Effect of massive amounts of phosphate? 


That's cool. I don't use that chart, so it's really a non-issue for me. The C02 that goes in...is what it is, so that's not a concern either. Good to know though....roud: Any comments...input?


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## EdTheEdge (Jan 25, 2007)

Wow this has turned into a world class thread! Lots of neat info. Thanks! Lots to think about now. It's amazing how technical this hobby has become.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

If you want a Good read...take a gander all the way through this:

CO2 revelations part 2#

Those were the good ol' days when I was a lurker and then registered. Back when people actually wanted to know and PT wasn't just "Party Central"....:thumbsup:

EDIT: If you search threads back from ~2004-2006/7...you'll find a lot more real, accurate and useful information then most current threads. Exception: Some info *is* out-dated, but a lot of it is still golden.


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