# A bunch of newguy questions!



## darkstar22 (Oct 10, 2009)

OK, I asked about lighting in that section: I have a 29 aga tank. 2x65watt pc light which I will run just 1 light over the tank to keep in the 2wpg range. Suggested to me in lighting...(right now it is a 10000k) will switch to 6500k. The plan is an Amazonian river biotope to house Angel fish (Pterophyllum Scalare or Altum). Questions: What substrate should I use? What type of driftwood? Is CO2 neccesary? What plants besides Amazon Sword? Can I use peat to soften the water, and darken it? Should I use my RO/DI water or tap? Sorry for all the questions, but I am totally new to freshwater plant tanks. I have successfully breed Angels in the past, but had no plants, and have had only saltwater reefs for the last 15 years.
Thanks for your help!


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## vca2004 (Sep 7, 2009)

What are your water parameters out of the tap? It would be interesting to know how much want/need to lower the pH/kH with certain substrates. You can find that out by contacting your local water supplier.
If you need to soften your water, you can use a pre-packaged soil like ADA Aquasoil or you can soften the water with peat hanging it in the filter or sprinkling it on the aquarium bottom under the final substrate layer.

CO2 is not necessary if you stay in the wattage range that you're in. If you go higher light, then carbon will become the limiting nutrient and algae will get a foot in the door.

As far as driftwood you can pretty much take any driftwood that you like and can find for a good price. Make sure you boil it for about 20-30min to get some of the tannins out that would otherwise over time color your water yellowish and to water-log the wood, so it won't float. 

As far as plants go, most plants like soft, acidic water. I don't know what angelfish need but you need to make sure that the plants can take the higher temperatures of an Amazon biotope. There are quite a few different Echinodorus species including little foreground plants like E. tenellus. There are some other plants that can take higher temperatures, but they are from Asia or Afrika. So it depends if you want a true biotope or just a pretty aquarium. www.tropica.com has lots of info on various plants, their origin and keeping conditions.


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## darkstar22 (Oct 10, 2009)

Thanks vca2004....do any of you just go to a river and get driftwood, and just boil it before placing in the tank, or is it advisable to buy it? 
As far as the tapwater, I'll have to have it checked, I only use RO/DI in my reefs so never bothered to have the tap checked. I'll check out the site you posted as well.


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## vca2004 (Sep 7, 2009)

There are some people who just get some driftwood from their local river and it all works out fine for them. It's your own decision.


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## darkstar22 (Oct 10, 2009)

Yeah I did this in the past, and had no problem, but didn't know if I had just gotten lucky. I've decided on Ecocomplete by Caribsea for my substrate, and have some ideas for plants too. Will research some more, and ask a million more questions!


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## Philosophos (May 7, 2009)

2x65w and no CO2 over 29 gal. is going to land you with a tank full of algae. Even at 1/2 those light levels, you'll have algae problems without compressed CO2. Leibig's law and the low carbon requirements of algae make it more of a scientific fact than just conjecture. You can try to get around it with PO4 limitation, but that will stunt your plant growth and encourage GSA.

If you add compressed CO2 you'll drop out the pH as well, which is great for spawning SA cichlids. That and some peat and drift wood should keep your pH low. If you want to go obsessive with things, or if your tap is liquid rock, some RO/DI can help things along. 50% RO works in most cases.

You'll want fertilizers; your tap and some food isn't going to provide enough unless you dial your tank down to 1wpg and keep the feeding heavy or the plant load light. DIY ferts are the cheapest, most effective thing you'll find. K2SO4, KH2PO4 and KNO3 will take care of NPK, CSM+B takes care of micros, and a little CaCl2 and MgSO4 may not hurt depending on whether your tap water contains enough. 

If you have a KH over 4, get CaSO4 and dose for 5-10ppm, below that it may be more convenient to dilute some CaCl2 in tank water before adding it back to the system to get your levels high enough. MgSO4.7H2O is something you can look up on water quality reports for your area, and if the tap doesn't have it, you can find epsom salts at your grocery store.

the eco-complete is a nice rooting substrate but the nutrients listed on the bag are not bioavailable. Do not rely on it to provide anything significant besides iron.

-Philosophos


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## vca2004 (Sep 7, 2009)

@Philosophus: He'll only be using one of those 65W bulbs over his 29gal tank if you read his first post.


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## darkstar22 (Oct 10, 2009)

wow! OK, I was just thinking of using the PC fixture, because it was available, but it sounds like I can just get by with a DIY light, and have plenty of light if 1-2 watts per gallon is the desirable wattage. Can you guide me to a DIY option or a store-bought light that would be good for the 29 aga plant tank (low tech setup in mind). 
I'll use the PC fixture for it's intended use....anothe reef tank! hahaha
Thanks any advice is very welcome


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## vca2004 (Sep 7, 2009)

You can get some here:
http://www.ahsupply.com/36-55w.htm (I'd go with the 55W Kit)

or you can build one with screw in CFs (the spiral ones) like this:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/94383-spiral-fluorescent-bulb-canopy.html


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## Ariel301 (Sep 7, 2009)

I collect my own driftwood. I've used various pines, cottonwood (this one rots fast, not a good one), unidentified wood, and currently I have some branchy pieces that are leftover from a cactus that grows here called 'jumping cholla'. (it's neat stuff; it looks like manzanita only it's full of holes). Just be sure to wash whatever you use really well and boil it first if you can, if you collect your own.

That size tank should be nice for a couple of angels. I find that they breed better in a planted tank; when I was raising them, all my pair tanks were bare, and then when I put potted amazon swords into them, the fish were happier and I had more spawns.


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## darkstar22 (Oct 10, 2009)

Thanks vca2004...are you suggesting the 1x55w kit? Also they don't come with the lamps. Which spectrum? 6500k? 
Also thanks Ariel301..I have many rivers near here so I'll start exploring.


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## vca2004 (Sep 7, 2009)

6500K is the best IMO, very good for plants and very pleasant to the eye. And yes, I think the 1x55W kit should be great. I wouldn't go over 2wpg if you want to keep it simple.

BTW, the spiral fluorescents are also available in different wattages, not just the 20W.


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## darkstar22 (Oct 10, 2009)

Yes I want to keep it simple, 1x55w 6500k...great! I will go that route then! Thanks allot, and I'm sure I'll have more questions too.


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## Philosophos (May 7, 2009)

If you're already into the hobby enough to have reef tanks, you should try a little compressed CO2. If you're using a calcium reactor by any chance you can just split your CO2 line off with a manifold and go from there. CO2 makes a very large difference on planted tanks; less algae, better growth, more options for plants, etc.

-Philosophos


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## darkstar22 (Oct 10, 2009)

Philosophos..I don't use a calcium reactor, but dose 2 part. Anyway do you think that the 2x65w pc fixture can be used over the 29g if I use co2? If so what spectrum bulbs to put in it, and any other tips to make it work. If it's too much light period, any ideas? I'm looking at this as a way to utilize existing equipment ie: the 29g, and pc fixture in a freshwater realm. Thanks!


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## Philosophos (May 7, 2009)

I run a 1x65w over a tank similar to yours in size, and 1x65 with compressed CO2 is perfect. The same fixture over 20 gal was a challenge. 2x65 can be done, but it will leave you chasing algae. There are many famous aquascapers who use both low and high light. The only difference I've seen between them is how much time they spend trying to clean algae off of things. Award winning tanks happen at 2-2.5wpg with good light spread and CO2 all the time.

So, in short, run 1x65w with CO2 for a happy, comfortable tank outside of CO2 break-in pains for a week or two at most. For a tank requiring more work but less money, 1x55w with DIY and excel. Personally I keep a bottle of excel around regardless of tech levels; it's just good stuff to have for spot treating algae.

As I've gotten deeper into the hobby, I've found that compressed CO2 isn't a requirement for a nice tank. I have nice tanks that happened by accident with stock bulbs, some drift wood, basic plants, good substrate and good ferts. For an amazing tank though, I'd accept nothing less than compressed CO2.

-Philosophos


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## darkstar22 (Oct 10, 2009)

Thankyou so much..everyone who responded! This forum is very helpful, and nice people! Now I have a basic idea as to what I need to get started, but here is another question..lol...what filtration? A simple biowheel? Canister? 
Thanks


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## Philosophos (May 7, 2009)

A canister will do a better job of keeping the water clean, and it's a prerequisite to compressed CO2. They're definitely more expensive, though. For a tank your size, you should be able to get a Rena XP1 for about $90-140 depending on where you go. Check ebay. I strongly recommend the Rena's in terms of best quality for the money.

HOB's are something I have yet to go wrong on for low tech tanks. Most brands do the job. Some people are very attached to biowheels, though I haven't played with them.

-Philosophos


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## darkstar22 (Oct 10, 2009)

I've had great success with biowheels, even on my first saltwater tanks. Found a nice one today a Marineland Pro 280 for 50 bucks, may get that. Also was looking at some Floramax-Midnight black that I could mix with Eco-complete....would this be a good combo? Oh, and for a DIY light, are regular home depot type fixtures doable? I'm so used to HQI MH, and T5's that I feel clueless on this plant stuff!


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## Philosophos (May 7, 2009)

Floramax will probably do its job well in terms of grain size, but caribsea openly states that there's no nutrients. Eco-complete is more or less just a rooting substrate with some iron; the rest of those nutrients listed on the bag are not actually bioavailable.

Make sure you fert well; an inert substrate means it'll take time for nutrients to collect in it. Competition from algae will be a bit tighter.

Light wise, sunblaze has individual strip lighting; not sure if they've got 24'' but I know they've got 36'' and the bulbs that come with it are in good spectrum. You may have to hang it, or DIY some legs, but it's a good option for cheap, effective lighting. I've got 2x 48'' 54w T5HO of this type on my 48 right now and it's a bit intense. Once the emersed growth phase is over I'll be either using shade cloth or timed durations on half power to get things adjusted. I believe it cost me about $100 to get everything shipped to my door for that setup.

Anything you find at home depot can work as well. I tend towards programmed start fixtures (saves money on bulbs) when I can. At worst you'll end up scrapping the bulbs because of the yellow tint; some tanks look pretty ugly with it. The spectrum shouldn't be a problem most of the time though.

Individual parabolic reflectors will get you the best efficiency on your lighting. Try to get at least individual reflectors, even if they're angled.

-Philosophos


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## darkstar22 (Oct 10, 2009)

Would this be a good light? Nova Extreme SLR T-5 (30"L x 5.5"W) 1x24w 10000k and 1x24w 6700k. It's at Dr. Fosters Smith for 75.99. Sounds good right? 48watts over a 29G. No DIY hassles! LOL..Thanks


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## Philosophos (May 7, 2009)

Nova's are decent lights. I've got one of their CF's and it's worked quite well. It'll work if you're avoiding DIY. The problem with it is that they're packing two bulbs in so close together, and they don't put true individual reflectors on the bulbs. It'll still work well, and it will be more efficient than CF, but the spread of DIY won't be there. I'd make sure you have the option to only run one bulb at once, just in case you need to reduce lighting by having only half the light at some times.

Oh, I just remembered; I was kicking my self for not having bought this:
http://shop.bhg.com/show_product/93928/?utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=datafeed&utm_term=93930

Pretty much the same thing I've got but as T5 with the option for legs. Not programmed start, but probably the best flexibility on spread and light you can get without DIY. Get reflectors individual reflectors for it, and you'll probably only need 3 of these to do the job. The legs should solve any mounting problems with the Sunblaze fixtures.

-Philosophos


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## mynameisjonah (Jan 22, 2008)

I'm not sure how many angels you could successfully house in a 29 gallon long-term, especially if you end up with a breeding pair amongst them. Breeding pairs are incredibly territorial and aggressive...Your set up may be a tad bit on the small side for a group of angels. You're probably better off with south american dwarf cichlids that don't have the potential of outgrowing your tank.


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## darkstar22 (Oct 10, 2009)

I've successfully bred Angels in a 29G before, just 1 pair and some Cory cats. It's a good size tank actually...for 1 pair that is! They will fight if you have more than that.


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## darkstar22 (Oct 10, 2009)

Thanks everyone for the input. I'm now getting things ready. Have to repaint my stand first. I have 40lbs of Eco-Complete, an HOB Biowheel filter, and will be using the existing 2x65w PC fixture on the 29G tank. I am ordering 2 6700k bulbs today to replace the reef lighting. I will run 1 bulb for 5-6 hrs have it switch off, and then the other bulb on for 5-6hrs. I think it will get a nice even lighting that way. I will also be making a DIY Co2 system. Hopefully I'll have water in the tank on Monday. 
Thanks again to everyone!


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## genEus (Oct 10, 2009)

Philosophos said:


> Nova's are decent lights. I've got one of their CF's and it's worked quite well. It'll work if you're avoiding DIY. The problem with it is that they're packing two bulbs in so close together, and they don't put true individual reflectors on the bulbs. It'll still work well, and it will be more efficient than CF, but the spread of DIY won't be there. I'd make sure you have the option to only run one bulb at once, just in case you need to reduce lighting by having only half the light at some times.


FYI, I just bought this light for my 29g tank from DrsFS and yes they do come with individual reflectors. Unless I am misunderstanding you when you say "true individual reflectors" but mine look like below.

```
__    __
/   \ /   \
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darkstar22 said:


> I've successfully bred Angels in a 29G before, just 1 pair and some Cory cats. It's a good size tank actually...for 1 pair that is! They will fight if you have more than that.


I got 4 large marble Angels in my 29g now (I am in love with them so much so that my gf is jealous). I had 3 before in a 20 gal long for about 7 months and they were doing beautifully, but I recently noticed that it was getting a bit cramped for them. I do weekly wc's so water quality was never an issue. But you now got me worried about my 4 fighting. I haven't seen them fighting yet. There is one bully among them but it's mostly for show. I sure hope I wouldn't have to return any.


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## Philosophos (May 7, 2009)

I'm glad to hear they have individual reflectors then. I was under the impression that they had sort of a rippled pattern with only partial bulb coverage that allows for 180 degree light. Perhaps that's what it is with yours. My reflectors look more like:



> --_____
> -/-------\
> |--------|


Sorry about the dashes; spaces don't seem to be staying.

-Philosophos


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## genEus (Oct 10, 2009)

Philosophos said:


> I'm glad to hear they have individual reflectors then. I was under the impression that they had sort of a rippled pattern with only partial bulb coverage that allows for 180 degree light. Perhaps that's what it is with yours. My reflectors look more like:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh yeah they are called now "Nova Extreme *SLR*"

I have also heard that they used to have a uniform reflector. I think that's why they also named them SLR now too. Check it out:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=16770


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## Philosophos (May 7, 2009)

Ah, now the SLR is something I'm not familiar with. I'm glad to see that businesses keep up with the hobby now and then. Taam finally stuck fractioning impellers on their rio+'s as well.

-Philosophos


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## darkstar22 (Oct 10, 2009)

Hi genEus, the Nova looks nice. Almost bought it, but thought I'd make do with the existing equipment. As far as the Angels go. When they pair off they become very agressive! I mean violent! At least mine did. Both the male and female killed every other angel in the tank! Left the other fish alone, but kept them away from their area.


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## darkstar22 (Oct 10, 2009)

Oh, I just noticed you are In Rochester...I grew up in Dansville..just a bit south of Rochester. Do you have some nice LFS there now? Would like to check them out next time I visit..


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## genEus (Oct 10, 2009)

darkstar22 said:


> Oh, I just noticed you are In Rochester...I grew up in Dansville..just a bit south of Rochester. Do you have some nice LFS there now? Would like to check them out next time I visit..


There are a few. Not spectacular but very decent for a hobbyist. There is one in Buffalo that is better than all three combined here though... If you're ever in the area.


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## Centromochlus (May 19, 2008)

Don't know if this has already been said, but i wouldn't start out with altums if i were you. They are much harder to care for than the scalare species, and they require different setups.

Sounds like you're on the right track though!


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## darkstar22 (Oct 10, 2009)

Thanks Az, yea I agree, Never tried Altums before. There is a local Breeder here that I'm going to check out when the tank is ready. Apparently he has some very nice Scalare Angels!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

No way you'll fit 2 adult Altums in a 29gal tank.

Keep in mind that if you're keeping a high tannin level in the tank to encourage breeding that this will significantly impact the light levels that actually reach the plants. So you may need more WPG than you would with clear water. How much will depend entirely on the tannin levels.


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## darkstar22 (Oct 10, 2009)

Hi lauraleellbp,
I plan on having only 1 breeding pair of Scalares in this tank with some Cory's or other cats. Maybe some dither fish such as tetras. I've done this before with good results. Actually raising fry to adult size, however I did not have a planted tank at that time. No plants, and driftwood only, peat filtration etc...My lighting will be 1x65w PC 6700K over a standard 29g tank, alternating the lighting to not have too much. The front light will be on 6hrs, and then turn off. The back light will then turn on for 6hrs. I will be setting up a DIY CO2 system. No Altums in this tank! Scalares as stated earlier in the thread. Any info or help is appreciated
Thanks Darkstar


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## darkstar22 (Oct 10, 2009)

Well, here is an update. It's been 7 months since setting this tank up. It has been neglected. (spent all my time on my 20 Long SPS reef tank!) So that is dialed in now. I have the 29G tank 2x65w pc fixture with 6700k bulbs. Eco-complete substrate, and just bought the Hagen Co2 system. ( I know I could have made from 2L bottle, but this is nicer looking) and have read that it works. The tank has 4 Buenos Aries Tetras, and 2 glow light tetras, and lots of green fuzzy algae on the driftwood, and a carpet of green algae across the substrate. The fish seem fine, and the water quality is ok too! 
My plan is to pull the driftwood out, and clean it. Vacuum the substrate well while doing my water change. About 50%, and then again if needed. Then get some new plants, and replant the tank.
Questions: How long of a photo period for 2x65w lights? 
Should I alternate the lights? For example:front 1x65w on 4-5hrs. then off, and then back 1x65w on 4-5hrs? Or both on for 8-10hrs?
I have Excel, and Flourish, and the CO2 system.
Will this work? With weekly water changes of course.
Thanks for your help!


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## max chavez (Aug 7, 2009)

If the carpet of green algae looks like cyanobacteria, then, I'd address that before you do anything else. 
I'd start with 8hrs of those lights total, 4/4 if you want. With that light and diy co2, the cyanobacteria will be waiting to come back if you don't dose macros to keep your nitrates up. If everything goes well for a while after planting, you could overlap the lights to create a 'noon burst' or extend on bothe sides. good luck!


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## darkstar22 (Oct 10, 2009)

Its a very thin layer of algae covering the substrate. I dont know what kind it is. It lifts right off, and the substrate is clean underneath if that helps you understand better what it is. I can take photos later


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## darkstar22 (Oct 10, 2009)

I looked up cyanobacteria, and I think that is exactly what it is. I'll do the 50% water change, and keep an eye on it for a while.


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## darkstar22 (Oct 10, 2009)

what is dosing macros?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Macronutrients- Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Potassium (NPK).

You can address the BGA (cyano) several different ways; get your nitrogen and phosphate ratio dialed in, increase flow, a 3-day blackout, and/or use antibiotics.


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## darkstar22 (Oct 10, 2009)

Thanks, and how do I introduce these into my tank? I'm totally new to planted tank stuff! I am used to Reef Tanks, and this is all new to me


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## max chavez (Aug 7, 2009)

lauraleellbp said:


> Macronutrients- Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Potassium (NPK).
> 
> You can address the BGA (cyano) several different ways; get your nitrogen and phosphate ratio dialed in, increase flow, a 3-day blackout, and/or use antibiotics.


I would suggest:
get your nitrogen and phosphate ratio dialed in, increase flow and use antibiotics 

I dealt with it last month, and used 'maracyn' for 5 days at 50% dosage with 50% water changes after days 3 and 5. It turns brown and sloughes off. (don't worry if you see no change days 1-3) 

do some reading around the site for "dosing macros" "dry ferts" and see what sounds right for you. 

My opinion is dry ferts(aquariumfertilizer.com where i got mine) are the way to go. My guess is you could dose 1/2 E/I method. Search for that as well

look around, ask more questions


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## darkstar22 (Oct 10, 2009)

I did a 50% water change today, so now I'll see how things go. The Amazon sword plants survived it all! Pretty tough guys I'd say. Since there leaves were covered in algae. I cleaned them all off, and replanted them.


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## Frogmanx82 (Dec 8, 2009)

If you use CO2, your maintenance will go up. Plants will grow faster and need to be trimmed more often, they will go through nutrients faster too. Also when looking at the lighting, you have to consider how many hours a day you will run it in addition to the wattage.


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