# The non-CO2 Tom Barr Method



## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

NightSky said:


> For those that have had experience with this method detailed on Tom's message board and tested by a user here (who's name I don't recall), I was wondering if you could provide any tips, tricks, and/or mistakes that you may have encountered along the way that you'd like to share.
> 
> I'm going to be starting a 5g similar to the tested tank. One thing I wanted to ask right off the bat is do you have to follow everything to a "T"? I'd like to continue doing WC's once a week permanently and not just when it's set up. I'm also going to start out with small plants since I'd rather not spend so much. I have Tropica Mastergrow micro ferts and was wondering if I could just use that instead of the Seachem Equilibrium.
> I went to the store today and got 3 plants—Java fern, ophiopogon japonica (I know realize this is mondo grass and will have to return it or throw it out), and hygro corymbosa. I accidentally got laterite instead of leonardite. Is it ok if I forgo the leonardite for laterite? I only got 55oz. and it costs 20 bucks. I can return it but I'd rather not since the store was in another town.


Hi, that be me. Anyway, a few things to note. I have not updated the page for some time but basically the 5 gallon Tom Barr tank that was done by the book(other than the part about no water changes) continues to do well. The tank literally became smothered with hygrophilia difformis, so that is a plant IME that does really well with this kind of setup. The anubias and java ferns continue to do well. Ambulia is another plant that seems to really do well with this setup and it is growing slowly but spreading like a weed. This is also one of the few tanks where my java moss acutually grew well and did not turn brown. Riccia grew but very slowly and best floating. I It remained sparse when tied to rocks. The cryptocorne Wendtii while still alive is the most pathetic sorry looking plant in this setup. I inserted some Seachem root tabs in the area where it was rooted to try and give it a boost, but no such luck. It appears to be alive, but by a thread. 

When I tested with 15 watt 6500 K daylight bulb, green dust began to materialize. When I dropped to a 13 watt 6500 K daylight bulb and scraped off what was there, it did not return. There is some residual diatom algae on my anubias leaves only. There was some black brush algae at about the 3 month mark, but I removed it manually and no more formed. The Amano Shrimp, Endler's live Bearer, and Assassin Snail continue to do well as do the other snails that hitch-hiked with the plants. Sadly though, I have been unable to keep Dwarf Aquatic Frogs and Otocats in this tank, even after I stopped dosing Seachem Excel. I am not sure what this is due to. My guess is that that they are not as toleratent of slight temperature fluctuations as the tank is unheated or there is something in the tap water itself that they are extremely sensitive to. The other possibility is that the frog may be dieing of starvation due to competition from the snails and shrimp that may be getting to the food first. I have set up a seperate unplanted filtered fish bowl for 2 Dwarf Aquatic Frogs only. 

Sadly, I had no success with the Walstad Natural Planted Tank method with the 5 gallon hex, but I believe that this may have been due to the specific soil that I was using and possibly using too thick a soil bed which likely lead to anaerobic pockets. For anyone wanting to try the Walstad method, I would suggest choosing your soil carefully or mineralizing it and going with mineralized topsoil if that is not possible. Also, I would recommend not layering more than 1/4-1/2" of soil on the bottom of the tank. I converted that 5 gallon hex tank to a Tom Barr Low Tech Setup with a twist. I slightly altered the substrate. That tank is undergoing a bad case of Green Dust Algae, although the 2 Amano Shrimp, Otocat, and Assasin Snail and other snails continue to do well. The green dust algae was a recent development, and only materialized about 2 months ago, out of the blue. There is some green spot algae on the side of the tank that gets the most light. In an attempt to try and deal with the green dust problem, I have changed the bulb from 14 watt 6500 K to a 10 watt GE 6500K. So far the plants are not suffering too much and the Green Dust Algae and Green Spot Algae appear to be slowly receding, but too soon to tell if it will totally disappear. I am hopeful this will work as the same strategy worked on the 5 gallon regular to prevent the Green Dust Algae from coming back. 

I do weekly 50% water changes. This is not recommended for this method as this is believed to cause fluctuating levels of c02 and lead to algae. I have had no algae issues from doing so, unless you attribute green dust and green spot algae as resulting from water changes. I follow Tom Barr's fertilization recommendation (tapered down for a 5 gallon)as outlined in his method but dose after each weekly water change. 

Overall, I would highly recommend the method, plant growth exceeded my expectations.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

There's a long detailed thread to this water column method of dosing for non CO2 on Aquatic Quotient forum. Many here in the US don't do non CO2.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## NightSky (Feb 16, 2009)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Hi, that be me. Anyway, a few things to note. I have not updated the page for some time but basically the 5 gallon Tom Barr tank that was done by the book(other than the part about no water changes) continues to do well. The tank literally became smothered with hygrophilia difformis, so that is a plant IME that does really well with this kind of setup. The anubias and java ferns continue to do well. Ambulia is another plant that seems to really do well with this setup and it is growing slowly but spreading like a weed. This is also one of the few tanks where my java moss acutually grew well and did not turn brown. Riccia grew but very slowly and best floating. I It remained sparse when tied to rocks. The cryptocorne Wendtii while still alive is the most pathetic sorry looking plant in this setup. I inserted some Seachem root tabs in the area where it was rooted to try and give it a boost, but no such luck. It appears to be alive, but by a thread.
> 
> When I tested with 15 watt 6500 K daylight bulb, green dust began to materialize. When I dropped to a 13 watt 6500 K daylight bulb and scraped off what was there, it did not return. There is some residual diatom algae on my anubias leaves only. There was some black brush algae at about the 3 month mark, but I removed it manually and no more formed. The Amano Shrimp, Endler's live Bearer, and Assassin Snail continue to do well as do the other snails that hitch-hiked with the plants. Sadly though, I have been unable to keep Dwarf Aquatic Frogs and Otocats in this tank, even after I stopped dosing Seachem Excel. I am not sure what this is due to. My guess is that that they are not as toleratent of slight temperature fluctuations as the tank is unheated or there is something in the tap water itself that they are extremely sensitive to. The other possibility is that the frog may be dieing of starvation due to competition from the snails and shrimp that may be getting to the food first. I have set up a seperate unplanted filtered fish bowl for 2 Dwarf Aquatic Frogs only.
> 
> ...


Thank you Homer for that elaborate wealth of information.  I was convinced by one of the workers at Dolphin Pets in SJ, CA to get Flourite black sand instead of searching for Onyx Black Sand (they had Flourite in red, Flourite black sand, Natural black sand, and Eco-Complete, but no Onyx sand). He said he knew Tom Barr (aka Plantbrain) personally for a long time and basically talked me into getting it. Did I make a mistake? I set up the tank tonight and didn't end up putting the laterite because the bag specifically said that laterite was not neccessary. I'm wondering if I should get leonardite somewhere (not sure where to get this). Currently, I have two Coralife 9w bulbs over the tank. From your post, this seems like major overkill and will sprout algae. I have a one bulb CF screw in that's meant for my 2.5g. That's 15watts. It's probably too much still though, eh?

Thanks for the info plantbrain. I'll check it out.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Hopefully, PlantBrain will chime in and provide tips as he is the father of this method. I can only speak from my experience and observations and what I know about the method. If I understand correctly, the Leonardite was just to provide some organic matter. You could also use lots of mulm from another tank, or a dusting of peat instead. I used all three in the 5 gallon rectangular, but that was probably overkill. I just got into a major debate about Seachem Onyx sand here with another member. 
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/substrate/82177-fluorite-black-vs-onyx-vs-sand-2.html

I am no expert on Seachem Onyx sand but my take is that if Tom Barr recommends it for the setup and is someone that can be trusted based on his many years of experience, how bad could be. As far as plant growth(excluding cryptocornes and most recently corkscrew vals, which don't die but don't show growth), I did not notice a tank of dead plant matter from using Seachem Onyx Sand.

Fluorite Black Sand should work just as well. Since it is a low tech tank, where you are dosing the water column weekly, I doubt it would matter what you use and even pool filter sand would probably work. Having said that, I have undertaken another one of Tom Barr's proposed methods using a nutrient rich substrate like Aquasoil to see what happens. Link is the third in my signature. 

Light levels are something that I have always found interesting. Lowering light levels is what proved to be the magic bullet that finally defeated the algae in this setup. http://azdhan.googlepages.com/thelostworld

And I have found that I always had few if any algae issues with lower vs higher light levels with all other things being equal. But then you have people who claim that watts per gallon rules do not apply to small 5 gallon or smaller tanks so go high, and you see people who shine 27 watts of light over a 5 gallon tank(excel dosing daily or every other day) but claim not to have any algae issues. I will be setting up another mineralized topsoil 5 gallon experimental tank with 27 watt light in the future. For now, both my tanks suffer if I go over 10 watt for the hex and over 13 watt spiral 6500K daylight for my 5 gallon rectangular, And that is even with Seachem Excel 2x dosing daily. I guess that would not be the case if I added DIY c02, but then it takes the tank out of the realm of non-c02, low tech, low maintenance.

I have some Leonardite that I could ship to you. I am not sure how customs will treat it. Hoppy also tried this setup with the same brand Leonardite(Diamond Back brand), but he ended up with tea color water from using it and I did not but I used Seachem Purigen in my HOB filter so that could account for the difference. Anyway, I can send you some but cannot guarantee that Customs will not seize it and it will not turn your water a tea color.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Hopefully, PlantBrain will chime in and provide tips as he is the father of this method. You could also use lots of mulm from another tank, or a dusting of peat instead. I used all three in the 5 gallon rectangular, but that was probably overkill. I just got into a major debate about Seachem Onyx sand here with another member.
> I am no expert on Seachem Onyx sand but my take is that if Tom Barr recommends it for the setup and is someone that can be trusted based on his many years of experience, how bad could be. As far as plant growth(excluding cryptocornes and most recently corkscrew vals, which don't die but don't show growth), I did not notice a tank of dead plant matter from using Seachem Onyx Sand.
> 
> Fluorite Black Sand should work just as well. Since it is a low tech tank, where you are dosing the water column weekly, I doubt it would matter what you use and even pool filter sand would probably work. Having said that, I have undertaken another one of Tom Barr's proposed methods using a nutrient rich substrate like Aquasoil to see what happens. Link is the third in my signature.
> ...


I am not the father of this method, I just provided some justification for it.
It's not my idea. 

All it does is use a rate based on growth rate differences between CO2 enriched and non CO2 enriched systems, and takes the relatively easy to measure faster rates of N, P, trace uptakes, and applies it to the water column instead of the sediment.

The goal was more or less to explore algae and the differences in non CO2 systems, whether they are "truly limited" or if algae was "limited"(nope).

As far as a practical method goes, a nutrient rich sediment along with minimal water column dosing works best(uptake is rather slow). The same general principle applies to CO2 enriched systems also, just more is added to the water column, eg, a higher rate of dosing(frequency and amount).

Many folks have had water column dosing in non CO2 tanks for many years.

Understanding why they work is another topic though.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> I am not the father of this method, I just provided some justification for it.
> It's not my idea.... Regards,
> Tom Barr


Thanks for clarifying. Sorry, I will no longer refer to you as the father of the method. I just took it for granted that it was your idea as your site was the one where I saw it posted.

Apologies

Homer_Simpson


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Thanks for clarifying. Sorry, I will no longer refer to you as the father of the method. I just took it for granted that it was your idea as your site was the one where I saw it posted.
> 
> Apologies
> 
> Homer_Simpson


No need to be sorry. I just do not want folks thinking I invented all this stuff.
I just took observations and methods and justified them. Folks have done things like EI for decades before I called it that. Same deal here. Diana Walstad got her ideas from others who had done this long before her or I and reassembled them into a strong case for use in the hobby as well. Folks refer to it as her method, however, that is not her method really, and I think she really would not argue that it was "her" method. I am not sure, that is something best asked to her directly. 

Folks associate people's names with things, some like it, others, like myself, don't. I would not call my company Aqua Design Barr for example:redface:
I'm more interested in the ideas, not names, but that's just me.
I suspect Diana is as well, but I honestly do not know her, I cannot speak for her. But many folks call it her method nonetheless and the same is often applied to me, however, I have quite a few methods, so my name really does not mean much there:redface:

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## NightSky (Feb 16, 2009)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Hopefully, PlantBrain will chime in and provide tips as he is the father of this method. I can only speak from my experience and observations and what I know about the method. If I understand correctly, the Leonardite was just to provide some organic matter. You could also use lots of mulm from another tank, or a dusting of peat instead. I used all three in the 5 gallon rectangular, but that was probably overkill. I just got into a major debate about Seachem Onyx sand here with another member.
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/substrate/82177-fluorite-black-vs-onyx-vs-sand-2.html
> 
> I am no expert on Seachem Onyx sand but my take is that if Tom Barr recommends it for the setup and is someone that can be trusted based on his many years of experience, how bad could be. As far as plant growth(excluding cryptocornes and most recently corkscrew vals, which don't die but don't show growth), I did not notice a tank of dead plant matter from using Seachem Onyx Sand.
> ...


Thank you for those links. I read the one on the substrate and it is interesting. Since my attempt is geared toward low-tech with no CO2 but Excel, even if black sand isn't as useful in high tanks, it seems to not be an issue and work fine in low-tech situations, so I'm hopeful for a low-algae outcome. It's late and I should get to sleep but I'll get to reading up on your algae journal soon enough. Your journal is good stuff, btw.  Thanks for your research and providing that information for the planted tank community. When I was getting into this hobby, I found a lot of elaborate, conflicting information but not much action (aka talk but no walk. Apparently I missed Tom Barr's post -_- ), so it was hard for me to figure out what would work for someone like myself who wanted the least amount of work put into planted tanks as possible. So thanks for testing things out not just for yourself but the whole community!

Plantbrain, I read a 4pg thread on Aquatic Quotient (I'm not sure if that was the one you were referring to) and from reading a few other threads around there, it seems that if the gist of the method is implimented correctly, than the results would be successful so thanks for directing me there.

For now, I'll forgo the leonardite and see how thinks progress in the 5g. I'm gonna find a lower wattage light to put over it and dose the recommended amount of dry ferts to the water column weakly after a weakly water change in spite of WC's not being recommended (I'll see how it goes). I have added a nice, leafy Amazon sword, ciliata, and a cardinal plant besides the plants I already mentioned to try to curb the headstart for the algae, and instead let the plants get ahead first. I'll see how things go in a week and report back.

For now, here's a pic of my cloudy aquarium (this is after approx. 10 WC's to try to clear the water up from a thin, gray layer of film that was extremely difficult to get rid of), and please excuse the not so great aquascaping as it was difficult to see what was going where in the haze***:











** On a side note, the substrate is very fine. I'm hoping it doesn't clog up my HOB.*


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

I appreciate the complment NightSky. Thanks. It is still interesting that peoples' experiences with same setups seem to differ greatly, which makes you realize that sometimes this hobby is not always so clear cut.

I really think that you are taking a smart approach by going low tech. looks like you are off to a good start. There is not really much that can go wrong with that kind of setup and it is really easy to maintain. What I like is that the a low tech tank can take more neglect, but it is not something I would recommend.

I found when I used pool filter sand, the grains were heavy enough that they did not get sucked up into 5 gallon filter intake. If you are worried, you could place a little sponge over the filter intake, although you will have to rinse it regularly to keep it from become plugged up with too much debris and slowing down the flow. Another good thing about placing the sponge over the filter intake is that it will allow you to keep small shrimp like red cherry shrimp that can make a nice addition to the tank. The shrimp would otherwise get sucked through the filter intake.

Keep us posted re: your progress.


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## Shavemacman (Jun 21, 2008)

I have been using this method on a 50g tank. My blog link is in the sig if you want to check it out. 
I found that Excel is important for healthy leaves on my amazon.

I have had a continued problem with algae. Once I get one type under control, a new algae blooms. I have been getting tempted to add DIY CO2 to see if that helps with algae issues.


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## NightSky (Feb 16, 2009)

Welp, it's been 6 days and I ended up doing a WC one day early cause the plants were not fairing too good. I don't know if I was supposed to start out with putting ferts in the first day when I set up the tank, but I didn't. I was allowing the plants to get settled first and get used to the water parameters. I kept the two 9watt CF Coralife lights on it to test out how much algae would sprout with it vs plant growth. So far, I have developed a minor case of fuzzy algae (I think it's hair algae but it's not green). By minor, I mean that it's settled on some leaves and stems of the slower growth hygro. The filter's working OK. I didn't end up putting anything over it. You were right Homer, the grains are too heavy, and end up falling to the ground after only a little while of being disturbed (unlike that dang cloudy powder). The plant growth is minimal. I didn't notice much growth. Because of the deficiencies in the plants, I ended up putting some iron and nitrate in the water (I have also been dosing Excel daily). That's what I thought the deficiencies were in but correct me if I'm wrong anyone. It didn't seem to help much and I put too much iron in cause the water turned yellowish lol. Woops!  This was before the WC. After the WC, I put a pinch of Potassium Nitrate, Mono Potassium Phosphate, Potassium Sulfate, a few dribbles of TMG, and a ml of Excel.

Water perams before WC (6 days in, sorry for bad pics. I only have my camera phone):
PH 8.0 (my water's hard outta the tap)
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrate 5.0 (I don't know where my nitrite test is)

Pruned Leaves:









Closer pic of leaves:









More leaf:









5g Day 6 (I did some rearranging the second day so it may look slightly different):


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

When I first set up the 5 gallon, I believe it took a couple of weeks before tank took off. Just a few things I might suggest based on my experience.

After a lot of trial and error I found that in two 5 gallon(one hex and one rectangular) tanks that I set up using this method I could not use anything more than one 13 watt compact fluorescent 6500 K day light bulb set for a 10 hour photoperiod, without running into some algae issues. Just recently about a month ago, the 5 gallon hex developed a butt ugly case of green dust algae that was beginning to spread. I replaced the 15 watt 6500K daylight bulb with a 10 watt 6500K daylight bulb. Surprisingly the plants don't appear to have suffered a lot(perhaps they are drawing on their reserve), but the green dust algae is beginning to retreat and the tank walls are really beginning to clear. I should have taken before and after pictures but to be honest I didn't because I was skeptical it would even work, but I figured I had nothing to lose.

I also jam packed my tank full of plants and I believe this helped against algae, although
the lower light was the biggest algae preventative. I know that jam packing a tank with plants can create an aquascaping nightmare, but if you are going to go with that much light at least consider adding some floating plants(eg., water lettuce). This should help with the algae. If you don't to mess with your current setup and lighting, then I would suggest adding DIY c02 injection and or dosing Seachem Excel regularly. Also, your plants may still be acclimitizing to their new environment and so may be most vulnerable to algae if you crank up the light too much. Remember, the plants were likely grown in water under different conditions(different water parameters) and lighting and so may be going through the equivalent of transplant shock. Just give it some time and see what happens.


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## NightSky (Feb 16, 2009)

Thanks for the info Homer.  I know, you keep warning me about an algae outbreak. Call me stubborn but I want to see how the plants fair with just one type of substrate and water column dosing. I am fully prepared for algae to rear its ugly head. If that does occur and it smothers the plants, than I will tone down the lighting. I have a 10watt CF screw in bulb waiting in the cabinet if that does occur.  Since I have no fish and the only die offs I have to worry about are plants, I'm going to test out whatever works best in regards to plant growth.

Oh yes, and I have been dosing Excel daily on this tank. I think I need to create a journal for this.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

NightSky said:


> Thanks for the info Homer.  I know, you keep warning me about an algae outbreak. Call me stubborn but I want to see how the plants fair with just one type of substrate and water column dosing. I am fully prepared for algae to rear its ugly head. If that does occur and it smothers the plants, than I will tone down the lighting. I have a 10watt CF screw in bulb waiting in the cabinet if that does occur.  Since I have no fish and the only die offs I have to worry about are plants, I'm going to test out whatever works best in regards to plant growth.
> 
> Oh yes, and I have been dosing Excel daily on this tank. I think I need to create a journal for this.


Good stuff NightSky! I wish more hobbyists would be prepared to experiment with setups and share what they learn so we can all mutually benefit and learn. I am really looking forward to see what you discover.


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## NightSky (Feb 16, 2009)

Started my journal here for anyone interested:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/tank-journals-photo-album/83114-5g-low-tech-non-co2.html


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

I'm not sure I'm stuck/w it but for now I am. I bought a T5 fixture(2 bulbs) for my ten G tank and plan to do this.
If you think it will crash for any reason let me know please.
Ferts for now: After weekly water change. 1/4 teaspoon KNO3/1/32nd teaspoon KH2PO4 for the Macro to have K2SO4
added when I can later. Flourish Comprehensive 1ml for the Micro + 5ml of Tetra Pride for iron.
This has a daily dose of 1ml of Excel. This tank has the lights 12" over the sub. But it also has about a 10% coverage of Giant Duckweed.
After I get more full grown plants I intend to change to this:
About 30% coverage of the Giant Duckweed. Micro/Macro fert but no Excel. The M/M fert is a reduced dose at once per week.
Theoretically the light gives it a 3.6WPG but it is cut by calcium on the cover and the Giant Duckweed.
BTW: I am one of "those people"...who like algae. But not an outrageous amount of it. As seen in this "todays" picture.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/images/pGallery/pg_7049e.jpg


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