# 70 gallon dirt goldfish tank



## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

*Nov 22/2011*

I added my two fish (a 4.5 inch moor and a 2 inch telescope). I added 12 scraggly little mini twister vals. I added a few weeds I found in a ditch.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

*Nov 22/11*

I added a cheap 64 watt shop light and two cross braces to prevent it from falling in. I built an overflow (visible in the pic) into the tank which drains into a 5 gallon bucket which sits beside the tank. I call it a "sump" though a sump is, by definition, below not beside a tank. I may move it into the stand someday, but for now I like to see it easily. The sump contains my filter, a large, fully cycled "Hydro Sponge". I consider it the best and simplest filter on earth and will gladly rant and rave about it if you give me an opportunity. If I leave the filter for one month it is packed with mud but still flows well. The bucket also contains some water rooted terrestrial plants which will uptake any excess ammonia the soil may produce. They are temporary.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I briefly experimented with various floating plants, but decided to get rid of them due to conflicts with the overflow and surface film problems. That and they ultimately proved to conflict with my philosophy. Whatever plants I end up with, they will be easy. After about ten days, the mini twisters are starting to send out runners and new plantlets. The fish are not touching them. I think they taste bad.

My plan is to plant heavy fast growers to consume the nitrate produced by the filter bacs. Another approach would be to use only plants, no filter bacteria. I won't go this route because plants grow in spurts and may lag in their ammonia uptake creating a spike. Ammonia is more toxic than nitrate, so, to my thinking, it is better to convert to nitrate then let the plants convert that. This only works in an anaerobic substrate like mine where root rhizosperes can denitrify the nitrate back to ammonia and consume it.The only low light fast grower I know of which goldfish don't eat is vals, so I will use them. I may also plant something they do eat, but plant so much that they cannot keep up with the growth. It would be great for their health and make the tank more interesting looking. If it works I will call it "Trick No. 2" (Trick No. 1 being Sand to keep the poo out of the substrate and a good filter). I think that tons of good tasting, fast growing fodder plants ("salad") may even protect other plants they might otherwise eat, allowing me to plant whatever I like.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Noticed my water had a lot of particles in it. I used to run siphon filters which took care of this kind of thing. For this tank I switched to an overflow filter. Now I know why people run a backup power or canister filter on goldfish tanks with overflows. Only surface water gets filtered otherwise. many particles resist the surface and remain in the lower level of the water column. I added a siphon from my tank (in addition to the overflow) to remedy this. The intake is near the surface and siphons directly into the overflow box to limit leakage in case of pump failure. I would only loose a gallon before the siphon would break. My overflow box has about an eighth of an inch of head water.

Still have only mini twister vals and an unidentified stem plant which I found in a ditch. The minis are sending up shoots. The fish don't touch them.


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## squidsquiggle (Sep 27, 2011)

I think this is very interesting! I love planted goldfish tanks. I was thinking of trying something very similar with my next tank. Have you noticed your goldfish mixing up the substrate at all? I was afraid mine would dig the dirt out from under the sand. 

It would be great to see some full tank shots! Thanks for sharing!


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

They only sift the surface trying to get algae. They never "dig" per se. Others do dirt and goldfish. I have never heard of anyone having their dirt dug up. Sorry, but this is the best I can do for pics right now. My crappy cell cam won't take a full tank shot with enough detail to show anything. The tank is still pretty bare anyway. My next step will be to mass plant a bunch of fast growing nitrate eating plants like water violet, water sprite, water hyacynth, Jungle vals, elodea...you know. I want to plant so many the growth will outpace the fish eating it. I want them to eat the plants. Two birds, one stone, you know.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

*tech help*

ps. Do you know how I can get the link to this thread (which I have as my signature) to read as some other text but still work?


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

Yay for planted goldfish tanks!!
I think im going to start a journal too!!!


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Do it!


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

Lol, now i have to!


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## squidsquiggle (Sep 27, 2011)

I'm just waiting for my last shipment of plants to come in, then I think I might start a journal, too. And it's good to know that they won't dig up the dirt, I'll definitely have to keep that idea on the table. Thanks for sharing the photo! My tank needs more plants that my goldfish can eat. I'd love for my eventual upgrade tank be half goldfish salad bar.

As for the signature, you type whatever text you want the link to say, then highlight the text, then click on the 'insert link' icon and put in the address. Took me a minute to remember how I did it.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Thanks Squid. Oh, and... DO IT!


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

Ha ha, as for goldfish digging up the substrate/dirt...i think if they know its under there they will go for it....ignorance is bliss, i think of my goldies as puppies or dogs...whatever works, they are just there to have fun and if they know they can get into something they will just for the fun of it!


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Yup, they're puppies. 


I thought I'd post a pic of some nasty algae I grew. I was expecting it when I removed my terrestrial plants, since I am too lightly planted. I left it on the back glass for now.


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

Hmm, what is the significance of this picture....may i ask...?
=]


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

If anyone can tell me the point of higher filter turnover, I would really appreciate it. I have around 2x, like I have always used. It seems to work fine for me despite the folks who recommend 10x turnover. Maybe I get it and I am just being weird.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

xjasminex said:


> Hmm, what is the significance of this picture....may i ask...?
> =]


 Just a record of some slimy algae I grew :hihi:


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

perhaps if my wife sees it I'll get a nice big algae magnet for xmas


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

Ha ha, im told that fish stuff is all me and i will not be getting anything fish related for christmas...bummer. 

10x filtration is recommended for goldfish because they are dirty fish, poop machines and mess makers. Think about this...the more or less water you have passing through your filters equals more or less ammonia that is being converted into nitrite and then therefore nitrate. 

Because goldfish create more ammonia per fish than lots of other fish they require a higher filtration rate than other fish, so the faster the filtration rate the faster your ammonia gets converted and becomes less toxic. 

If you are talking about 2x the filtration rate on your 70 gallon with the two small goldfish then thats a different story. That tank is really understocked therefore it will take a longer time for nitrate to build up.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

OK. Thanks. I think I understand it a bit more now. I think I get hung up on it because I don't get the math. You know; 100 gallons goes through a filter in an hour, how much of the ten gallon water column never left the tank?? :icon_frow Anyway, I accept it now. Sometimes it depends who's telling you, I guess. I will keep it in mind. If I ever show ammonia, I will double my turnover and maybe filtration too. I think you have to strike a balance with bio filter surface area and water dwell time and turnover. Too fast and the bacs don't have a good chance to eat the nitrogen, I think. I'm gonna plant the heck out of it so it may never be an issue but it's good to know.


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

More is better, i like the idea of having more than one filter, then you have more space for bio bugs. 

And with plants you have to find an equilibrium. Plants consume ammonia just like the bio bugs, for me its gonna be to find out how much ammonia the plants consume then figure out how much filtration is needed to convert the remaining ammonia, by removing a filter and testing my water till i get the perfect water parameters that im looking for.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I am going about it the other way around. I want a massive colony of bac to eat all of the ammonia possible and leave the plants so hungry they will convert the nitrate back to ammonia for food. Perhaps this is ill advised and will lead to algae problems??? I really don't understand the relationships yet. I don't even know which, the plants or the bacs, consumes the various forms of nitrogen faster.


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## defiesexistence (Sep 13, 2010)

Gold, I like your algae :icon_smil You could clean it off, and offer it to your wife as a facial.

Plants can't convert nitrates back to ammonia. There's a 'bio bug' that does ammonification, converting it into ammonia, and water-soluble ammonium salts or so I read quickly from this: http://www.lenntech.com/nitrogen-cycle.htm... After reading an article on the decomposition of, well, dead people, I would have to guess and say bacs convert most forms of nitrogen faster than plants... But, my logic is not guided by understanding, but deduction. I just know the basics of the nitrogen cycle. I'm not trying to correct you, at all! but learn with you. Probably just an idiot's ramblings.

Anyhow. Perhaps you might be interested in the massive colony of bac on the MattenFilter: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/l...ger-mattenfilter-low-tech-setup-new-post.html. It's kind of like a sump, inside the tank. No reason you couldn't just have this be in your sump too. You could grow your terrestrial plants on that aquaponically, and submersed, any aquatic rhizome plants can grow on the filter below the water line.

Can we have a close-up of your sump?


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

defiesexistence said:


> gold, i like your algae :icon_smil you could clean it off, and offer it to your wife as a facial.


hah!


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

defiesexistence said:


> Plants can't convert nitrates back to ammonia. There's a 'bio bug' that does ammonification, converting it into ammonia, and water-soluble ammonium salts or so I read quickly from this: http://www.lenntech.com/nitrogen-cycle.htm... After reading an article on the decomposition of, well, dead people, I would have to guess and say bacs convert most forms of nitrogen faster than plants... But, my logic is not guided by understanding, but deduction. I just know the basics of the nitrogen cycle. I'm not trying to correct you, at all! but learn with you. Probably just an idiot's ramblings.
> 
> Anyhow. Perhaps you might be interested in the massive colony of bac on the MattenFilter: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/l...ger-mattenfilter-low-tech-setup-new-post.html. It's kind of like a sump, inside the tank. No reason you couldn't just have this be in your sump too. You could grow your terrestrial plants on that aquaponically, and submersed, any aquatic rhizome plants can grow on the filter below the water line.
> 
> Can we have a close-up of your sump?



Plant roots have a symbiotic relationship with both the nitrifying and denitrifying bacs which they foster on and around their "rhizoplane". They could not consume much of anything without root bacs. When I say the plants convert nitrite or nitrate backwards I mean with bacterial help, like when people digest stuff... our digestion wouldn't work without bacteria and fungi which we foster in our gut and which do some of the chemical work for us/with us.

I'll try to get a good shot of my "sump", or I'll just post a pic of a Hydro Sponge. That's all it is. (best thing ever). It amounts to a matten filter because it has a very large area of foam rubber with pore structure superior to (arguably) poret foam. It has amazing colony area, and once it gets a bit dirty and sticky it polishes the water micron style. Just squeeze it out once in a while. Never clogs. Holds a TON of filth.

So, do you think the bacs keeping the plants hungry of macros would invite algae or other problems? How do people do this? Balance bacs and plants I mean.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

In the absence of ammonia form nitrogen aquatic plants which are planted in an anaerobic substrate like mud will uptake nitrite/nitrate form nitrogen from the water column with their foliage and transport it to their roots where the anaerobes they foster denitrify it back to ammonia and the plants consume that.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

So if I plant enough fast growing stem plants (or any plants, maybe). I should be able to get away with nearly no water changes... I think. It's kinda Walstad but for goldfish, so with faster growth and more filtration and a sand cap which gets vacummed occasionally.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

If I have trouble I will switch to your approach, Jasmine. Get rid of as much bac colony as possible and rely on the plants.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Sponge: $18
Bucket: $5
Powerhead: $30


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## Lutra (Sep 30, 2011)

Gold Finger said:


> Sponge: $18
> Bucket: $5
> Powerhead: $30


... Never doing another water change: Priceless


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

hah!


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

Love it!


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

PLANT UPDATE:

Vallisnaria may be off my list for high nutrient using plants. (though I'll keep the minis for looks) It seem that it may not compete with stem plants in nitrogen uptake from the water column (particularly nitrate). Being a rosette, it will rely less on the water column, more on the substrate. I'd like some Hydrilla, but don't know if it's available. It's very invasive in the US. Very competent stem plant. Often chokes out Vallisnaria in the wild!


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

A kind member recently edified me as to plants ability to uptake nitrogen over and above the plant's immediate need and stockpile it. Hydrilla forms tubers and could therefore pack more nitrogen away than elodea, egeria, or water sprite. I guess.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

OOps. I missed this one. It's the full tank from a while ago. Picture it without the lilys and covered in a glorious coat of algae.


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## defiesexistence (Sep 13, 2010)

Gold Finger said:


> Plant roots have a symbiotic relationship with both the nitrifying and denitrifying bacs which they foster on and around their "rhizoplane". They could not consume much of anything without root bacs. When I say the plants convert nitrite or nitrate backwards I mean with bacterial help, like when people digest stuff... our digestion wouldn't work without bacteria and fungi which we foster in our gut and which do some of the chemical work for us/with us.
> 
> I'll try to get a good shot of my "sump", or I'll just post a pic of a Hydro Sponge. That's all it is. (best thing ever). It amounts to a matten filter because it has a very large area of foam rubber with pore structure superior to (arguably) poret foam. It has amazing colony area, and once it gets a bit dirty and sticky it polishes the water micron style. Just squeeze it out once in a while. Never clogs. Holds a TON of filth.
> 
> So, do you think the bacs keeping the plants hungry of macros would invite algae or other problems? How do people do this? Balance bacs and plants I mean.


I think that because plants and bacs do have a symbiotic relationship, that starving the plants using the bacs is not going to work in the first place. I think it balances out by itself, also known as 'maturing'.

Thank you for the picture and details of the sump!


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Right. No need to over think it. Lots of plants and bac area, and let them sort themselves out. Cheers.

As for my filter, it is as low maint. as I can come up with. I wish there were a no maintenance filter which separated the particles for you, like a protein skimmer does but for_ all_ particles. Do you think one could ionize the particles and attract them to a receiver plate. Ion filters work well with air don't they?


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I added a small circulation pump to my tank because I learned of the Brandtl effect. I thought my movement was low but fancy goldfish don't like much current. I also figured out the real effect of (water through filter) turnover rates, and realize that I could have less matter settle out in my tank and get away with less vacs if I raise my turnover rate. I will.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Have my main "filtering" stem plant choices down to E. Densa, or better yet HYDRILLA!  (If I can find it) It is banned in every state but I am in Canada. One government report calls it "The Perfect Weed".


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## Lutra (Sep 30, 2011)

Gold Finger said:


> I wish there were a no maintenance filter which separated the particles for you, like a protein skimmer does but for_ all_ particles. Do you think one could ionize the particles and attract them to a receiver plate.


That is an ingenious idea and I would like to see you set up a prototype.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

It is probably beyond me. Anyway, it's just a thought. That Dyson guy will probably do it.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Added some cabomba. It was the only fast growing low light stem I could find. I should probably try them all and see what works best. I don't think I will find Hydrilla through retailers. Maybe university botany labs??

The lighter green plant on the right is an unidentified stem i pulled out of a ditch. I thought it was mare's Tail at first. It ain't. I think I planted about 16 days ago. The plant was just a piece of root with no leaves which I buried. It's around 6" tall now.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

My tank is a mess. Having only overflow filtration leaves most of the debris in the water. I need a siphon filter for that and to double my turnover.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I currently feed my fish on Omega One and HBH Algae Grazers and a little broccoli once in a while. Omega One is fish protein based and is good as half of their diet. It would be a poor total diet. The Grazers are an _awesome_ Spirulina food with alfalfa, peas, carrots and spinach.


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

Just FYI, broccoli is a gassy veggie, so if your fishies start to float weird that may be the cause!

Everything looks good, i cant wait till your tank grows up! Then we can have big grown up tanks togather and figure out all the secrets to keeping goldfish with plants! HA!


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

OK. No more broccoli. I suspected as much. 

Yeah. The secrets are not safe around us. HAH!


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## Lutra (Sep 30, 2011)

Gold Finger said:


> The secrets are not safe around us. HAH!


Goldfish Whisperers!


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Three days in. The Cabomba is looking good; already showing new growth, not melting and most importantly, not being eaten. I will keep trying to find and plant another fast growing stem which they do like to eat and add it for their nutritional benefit. It may have to be something they will eat, but don't love. They made very short work of the Mare's Tail; so much so that I don't think any size of planting would have survived the ravishing.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Lutra said:


> Goldfish Whisperers!


Silly. I like it.


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## Lutra (Sep 30, 2011)

The Cabomba is untouched? Interesting. I've been assuming it would be a Sunday brunch buffet situation if I put it in.

I forget -- did you ever try Hornwort?


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Nope. Haven't tried it yet. I thought the cabomba would go too. Hornwort will likely go in next. My understanding is that hornwort has about a fifty fifty chance with goldies, but that they will eat it if they get really hungry.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

H. Polysperma is definitely on my list.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Adapted overflow box to 50% skim, 50% siphon. Will not need second filter to clear up particles. 

Moved circulation pump to give Cabomba a lower current environment. It don't like current. Am very happy it remains untouched. I like the look a lot. I would have used which ever stem exported the most nutrient, whatever it's looks. Is this trick number 3? Doubtful Cabomba would work with all golds. Have heard they eat it sometimes. Who knows, maybe they don't unless very desperate. Green food may be the key.

Am reconsidering planting food plants for the fish. Might be hard to maintain balance. I imagine sudden huge binge eating decimating the "filter". Asking for trouble. Probably better to plant only what they won't eat and continue feeding them external food.


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## Lutra (Sep 30, 2011)

On the strength of your Cabomba experience I rushed out to my LFS and bought some for my goldie tank. Bella tossed it about a bit the first day but since (two days now) has left it alone. I really had thought it would be goldfish food instantly. Just goes to show that experimentation is a good idea.

I'm working my way up to starting a tank journal, probably will start the new thread in the next day or two.


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## Lutra (Sep 30, 2011)

I take it back. I looked in just now and the top's been torn off one of the new stems, little bits are floating around in the water. Yes, it's been ---

Discabombalated.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

HAH! funny. Your pun, I mean, not the assault on the plants. I wonder if we have the same species of Cabomba??? (Do you call them species of Cabomba, or Genera? I know Jack about Botany)


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

My Cabomba remains untouched whereas others loose the plant to feeding or attack. Perhaps the species or variety is key. 

The genus Cabomba (Cabombaceae) is revised. Five species and three varieties are recognized: C. aquatica, C. palaeformis, C. furcata, C. haynesii and C. caroliniana including var. caroliniana, var. pulcherrima, and var. flavida var. nov. 


As for my plants: New growth is obvious on some (3), others (7) are unchanged. I have read that the bottoms of the stems should be discarded and the tops replanted to keep growth fast. Cut stem bottoms grow slower if left planted, they wrote.

The tops always grow faster, I suppose.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I seem to have a variety of Caroliniana which is, apparently, a good thing in terms of hardiness, adaptability and tolerance. Identifying the variety is probably beyond me.

Grass carp will eat it but do not prefer it according to experience of government plant invasion control efforts.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

enjoyed the entire thread tonight 
it will be interesting to see how it developes


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

A few things about cabomba. C.

My plants lost almost all of their buoyancy when I planted them. It turns out that they do this in winter to avoid being frozen into the ice. Mine must think it is winter.

It cannot fix carbon, but CO2 is not terribly limiting for it

They are NOT low light plants. They can survive very low light, but light is their most limiting factor.

Ph above 7-8 slows growth.

Hard water may slow growth.


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## Lutra (Sep 30, 2011)

Whatever Cabomba I have -- probably bog-standard caroliniana -- got so thoroughly chewed during the night that I pulled it out of the goldfish tank this morning -- it was clogging my filter.

I didn't know it dives to the bottom of the pond during the winter. Very clever. 

Gold Finger, can you clarify for me what you mean by "it cannot fix carbon"?


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

Just wanted to say good luck to you Lutra and your plant experiments!

As far as hornwort went with me...I floated it in my tank for a while....none of my Goldie's ate any, it's needley, it grows like incredibly fast though. The con to this is that it sheds needles. Otherwise it's a great nitrate sucker!


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Lutra said:


> Whatever Cabomba I have -- probably bog-standard caroliniana -- got so thoroughly chewed during the night that I pulled it out of the goldfish tank this morning -- it was clogging my filter.
> 
> I didn't know it dives to the bottom of the pond during the winter. Very clever.
> 
> Gold Finger, can you clarify for me what you mean by "it cannot fix carbon"?


I am using the term erroneously but as I have seen it used. I mean that it can use mineral, non gas carbon (CO2 carbon) to grow. It can eat hardness and does not need added CO2 to reach it's full growth potential. Vals can do it, but botanists seem unsure about cabomba.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Strange how our fish reacted differently to the cabomba, Lutra. Perhaps it is because of the variety (there are three or more carolinianas), or perhaps what we are feeding our fish???
I know that people say it just depends on the individual fish, but I hate to take stuff people say as the gospel. Do you have other plants in there that are working? I forget.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Am reassured that cabomba will work well as a main filter plant. Though it may require higher light (I may get another shop light) I don't think I'll need to add CO2.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Am undeniably reassured that big bio filtration is the way to go. Although I am sure I already have a redundant amount I will add another Hydro Sponge to my bucket on another Aquaclear 30 head. This way I should be able to tune the heads to push my internal overflow just past its max capacity through the drain hole ( I am presently at ~ 75% of the hole's capacity with one head on full throat). This way my overflow will function as a siphon for a day or two until the level drops far enough through evaporation then it will revert to skimming, which is not always needed but would be good every day or two. After that, it will make noise and indicate that it is time to top off.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I provoked some algal growth by disconnecting my bac colony from my powerhead a while back. I kept the algae on the back wall of the tank to help with nutrients until I get more plants. No nutrient issues so far. I am starting to like the look of the algae. I hope I am not becoming a hippy. If the dirt under my fingernails starts to look OK there I'll have my head checked.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I am really not blown away with the look of the mini twister vals in this tank. If I have any small plants that are just there for looks there are many that would look better to me. Anubias for instance.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

:icon_idea I should avoid raising my light at all costs. It would advantage the plants over the bacs, which is not what I want. If I ever show nitrate I should seek another way of boosting the plants ability to consume only that nutrient and not ammonia as well. Don't forget that ammonia is more (potentially?) harmful to plants than nitrate and less useful. Also that what's his name's law makes plants a less reliable filter in general.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Added some Ambulia Aquatica.


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

That's pretty stuff, hope it works out well for you!


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

xjasminex said:


> That's pretty stuff, hope it works out well for you!


Actually mine looks pretty weird right now. The stuff I bought was grown floating so the leaves are all crazy facing every different direction. Some Dr. Zeuss lookin' stuff.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

My algae wall and plants are competing to the point that the wall may never grow in right. The algae is a great nutrient exporter but kinda ugly if it won't grow in right ( not that I am really lookin to make a great lookin tank right now). From the front mostly diatomes are visible and it looks like the inside wall of a septic tank, but from the side viewed at an angle the GBA stands out and it looks like a waving green shag carpet.


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

Thats interesting, i had three years of and algae filled tank and im wanting a nice cleanish one now, lol.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I have never had algae before besides some experiments with using turf algae as a filter, and I am kind of interested. I think of this tank as a learning tool more than a showpiece so I am tempted, but I think it has to be plants or algae if you want either to look very good. Am not OK with a truly ugly look. Will probably stick with the plants and ditch the fuzz.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

It would be easy to use algae to filter all the nutrients from a tank and if you could get the green beard to thrive and the diatom to die off you could have a great looking, green fuzzy walled, tank but you can't do both algae and plants well at the same time. As soon as I shifted the conditions back to favor the plants the algae growth stopped completely. Am scraping it all off now to let my plants thrive. I did about a quarter and realized it was a lot of nutrient to dump into the water all at once. My fish is PIGGING OUT on it!


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Gold Finger said:


> :icon_idea I should avoid raising my light at all costs. It would advantage the plants over the bacs, which is not what I want. If I ever show nitrate I should seek another way of boosting the plants ability to consume only that nutrient and not ammonia as well. Don't forget that ammonia is more (potentially?) harmful to plants than nitrate and less useful. Also that what's his name's law makes plants a less reliable filter in general.


Perhaps If I ever show nitrate I could change the light cycle to 20+ hour and let some algae accumulate to take care of it..... Although, now that I am getting a sense of how much nutrient plants use, I am beginning to think I may never have nutrient problems unless I am swept off my feet by a pretty fish in a pet store and buy another one (can be hard to resist, you know).

PS. For anyone who may read this thread: I know I can get rid of nitrate with water changes. I am trying to minimize the need for changing water due to toxin accumulation. The main reason being that new water can be unexpectedly different from the tank water. Tap water can change it's nature suddenly and without warning. The second reason being the fun of experimenting with it, and the third being challenging the conventional wisdom surrounding water changes.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Piggin' out on algae scrapings.


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

Love it! I think my next Goldie will be a blackmoor. My mom really likes them, lol.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Yeah, get one and make yer ma happy. I'm sure you wouldn't regret it. I think Panda Moors are my favorite fish. I am a big fan of all telescopes, but every now and then I see an oranda who's personality is overwhelming... and I want to buy it! These things live decades... how do you resist buying them all the time?


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

Umm, i know i dont have the space for them, well right now i do but just for one. I haven't looked at fish in the fish store for a long time, i will eventually have a big 100 gallon tank and will have room for more of a community of them, which is what i aspire to have someday!


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

No one has room for all the fish they want. I stay out of the stores too.


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

Ha ha, i really would like a goldfish community, i find them highly relaxing and peaceful, like 100 or 125 gallon tank, planted and low tech =]


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Every time I consider what the best size of tank is it gets bigger... Think about it, wouldn't a 145 gallon be even nicer? :icon_twis


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I would really like to have a small business and a store so I have an excuse to have a bunch of big tanks, including a real monster in the middle of the store... and do some breeding too. My picture of an ideal home setup (right now) would be around 200 gallons, low tech planted with around 6-7 fish. Realistically, I would really like at least a 100 gallon when the fish I have now reaches 6.5 inches or so... then another fish or two.


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

Ha ha, im 5' 4" i have to think about how i plan on dealing with the tank....its going to be tricky!


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Yeah, it's a good thing to consider that. When I designed my stand I made it so that the substrate is at the same height as my finger tips so its easy for me to reach the bottom.


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

Now that was a good idea, I can almost reach the bottom of my 55 with a standard stand, like I can reach it but I can only do so much.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

It may be a bit early to say, but... The Ambulia seems to be growing faster than the cabomba. Neither grow as fast as the scruffy lookin' weed that got in the tank by accident. I don't like the look of that weed. I don't like the look of the mini twister vals either.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

The Ambulia (Limnophillia) is purported to grow faster than cabomba under low light conditions and is, in fact, doing so in my tank. It is also, disputably, prettier, but the two look very good together. The stems may be more fragile than the cabomba's. A fish broke one of them. I will get a lot more of it. These two will be my main filters. Probably in a ratio of around 70/30 Ambulia to cabomba.The growth rate may not be a big issue. I don't think I will need really fast growth to achieve zero nitrate creep, but better safe than sorry.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Everyone should move to Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada so they can buy their plants from "Volker". I stopped to check out this guy's basement aquarium supply business and pick up some more Ambulia... WOW... This guy has walls and walls of tanks packed with just about every plant you have ever heard of (and a really cool thick German accent to boot). He was, of course, out of the one plant I was looking for but sold me a pile of great looking plants for next to nothing. I was looking for an Ambulia which looked like the one in my tank. He had a species of Ambulia (Limnophillia), which he referred to as Sessiliflora, and which I bought and added to my tank. I think it is, in fact, L. Aquaticum (regular Ambulia) and that what I already had was L. Sessiliflora (Asian Ambulia). The Asian, which I had before, is a much fuller and prettier plant. I will go back to the place I got the Sessiliflora and get some more. He also sold me some nice tall (~32") hornwort which I also added to my tank.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

For the first time ever my hydro sponge is getting clogged quickly. I may stick to my plan and add another one which would extend the clogging time of each individual sponge by double, or I may switch to a Poret foam system. Maybe a Matten Filter dividing my sump in half. I'll go fishing for recommendations here in the forum. heh heh... fishing. :icon_roll


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I have a fine sand like substrate which keeps the detritus on the surface. I vacuum it. It occurs to me that small, flat stones would make the job easier and more efficient. If half of the bottom were covered with such stones the detritus would accumulate on the sand in the area remaining between the stones. The detritus would be condensed between the stones and cover only half the area making the vacuuming more efficient. Goin' shoppin' fer stones...


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Crummy picture of hornwort and asian ambulia


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Will definitely add a second Hydro sponge/power head to my sump. This way when one gets cleaned the other will still be gummy and fine-filtering and between the two there will be perfect flow through/dwell time somewhere. Also, if one pump fails only half my foam colony is at risk. 

Friggin' love the hornwort and Sessiliflora!


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

According to the Tokyo Department of fisheries, Aeromonas Hydrophila and Bacteroides Type A are the predominant Cassius Auratus intestinal bacteria along with A. Punctata, Pseudomonas, Clostridum and others.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

The department of fisheries in India did a study which showed that Lactobaccilus did result is increased fish growth. Also, that "Sporolac" produced even more growth. It is a medication containing Lactobaccilus Sporogenes which used in India as an antidiarheal.


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

You should do another full tank shot!


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Honestly, my camera won't produce anything more than a blur at that range. A decent camera is on my list.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Am trying to work up the nerve to yank the mini twisters out of my tank. I don't want to kill them, but don't know where to take them. Perhaps "Volker" would take them. I will go back there for more Hornwort.

The mystery weed grows like crazy. It has sent up a total of five shoots, all of which grow at least a half inch a day. I don't like it's looks, but each new stem has bigger leaves than the last. I'll let it go for a while. It must be the best Nitrate sucker in the tank by a mile.

The sesilliflora makes the C. Caroliniana look very drab by comparison. Right now I feel like I could Have nothing but it and the Hornwort in the tank. They compliment each other very well.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Gold Finger said:


> According to the Tokyo Department of fisheries, Aeromonas Hydrophila and Bacteroides Type A are the predominant Cassius Auratus intestinal bacteria along with A. Punctata, Pseudomonas, Clostridum and others.


 Turns out that these are gram negative and probably more damaging than Lactobaccilus. I will look for L. Sporogenes. and innoculate my fish with it.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

New Life Spectrum has made a better argument for a fish feeding regimen than any other I have heard. Unless I hear something more compelling, I will switch to feeding it exclusively as per their recommendations.


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## Lutra (Sep 30, 2011)

Bought any small, flat stones yet?


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Not yet. Got some more Asian Ambulia for my tank though.:red_mouth


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Planted more L. Sesilliflora

Think more frequent feeding may help assimilation and ease nitrate burden as per T. Barr's suggestion. Though studies on fish with stomachs show that more than two feedings per day does nothing to enhance assimilation, I found this study on juvenile C. Auratus:

Juvenile (3.0 ± 0.2 g) gibel carp (Carassius auratus gibelio) were fed to satiation for 8 weeks to investigate the effect of feeding frequency on growth, feed utilization and size variation. Five feeding frequencies were tested: two meals per day (M2), three meals per day (M3), four meals per day (M4), 12 meals per day (M12) and 24 meals per day (M24). The results showed that daily food intake increased significantly with the increase in feeding frequency and there was no significant difference between daily food intakes in M12 and M24 treatments. Growth rate, feed efficiency increased significantly with increasing feeding frequencies. Size variation was not affected by feeding frequency. Apparent digestibility of dry matter was not influenced by feeding frequency, while apparent digestibility of protein and energy increased significantly at high feeding frequencies. The feeding frequency had no significant effect on the moisture, lipid, protein, or energy contents of gibel carp, while the ash content decreased with increased feeding frequency. It was recommended that 24 meals per day was the optimal feeding frequency for juvenile gibel carp.

3 grams is a pretty young fish, but still... I think the twice a day regime may stem from the understanding of stomached fish and that adult C. Auratus may assimilate four meals a day better than two.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I will get a second auto feeder and split the food into four daily feedings. 

I will also switch to feeding NLS exclusively, as it seems, to me, to be the best food out there. 

I will continue to research "probiotic" gut flora. Lactobacillus seems promising, though the anti bacterial/fungal effects of the garlic in the NLS feed may well be all that is needed to keep the intestine in top health.

Yet another poster does not think I can achieve acceptable N levels with aquatic plants alone.... We will see.. I am willing to plant quite densely.

Need more hornwort.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Oh, did I mention? T. Barr recommends I improve my fish's assimilation of its food to reduce waste and keep excess nitrates down. Makes sense.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Perhaps If I cover the tank bottom with many complex obstacles like dense plants and or small pebbles I can make the food pellets harder for the fish to find, thereby further improving their nutrient assimilation. I think they would be happier too, finding food more often.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

NLS foods are all pretty much the same formula, mostly, pellet size and boyancy being the differentiating factor. NLS "goldfish" pellets are 3mm pellets, but they make 1mm and .5mm pellets as well. If I used one of these in my second auto feeder the fish would surely take longer to find them all.


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## msharper (Aug 19, 2011)

Just came over to this thread now. Without a doubt you will need to have your tank at jungle levels of aquatic plants if you want your N level to stay low with 4x daily feedings. It is possible.


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## msharper (Aug 19, 2011)

You won't regret NLS food. The colours on your fish will be crazy nice!


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Nice. Thanks a lot for the input M.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I am OK with a jungle for a tank. I chose to go this route over the nice scaped approach and will follow it through. Keep in mind I am talking about four feedings, but at the same total amount of food as if I were feeding only twice a day. Also, On the nitrate issue; I am using only stems, partly because they feed from the water column more than from the soil, but also because their shape is not designed to shade out other plants. I think I can get a lot of plants in there this way. I am mainly using Hornwort and Limnophillia. It is a low light set up and I think that CO2 will be my limiting growth factor.


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## msharper (Aug 19, 2011)

C02 only effects your growth rate not total growth. You can have the same size plants in a non C02 setup with low light it will just take longer to get there. Here is my 90 with super super low light and no C02 whatsoever. I think people would be really shocked to see that even so called "high light" plants will adapt to low light situations etc.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Right, but a lower rate means less N exported day to day, right?


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

More L. Sesilliflora in. They look like crap for a few days until they adjust to growing upright.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Whadda ya call "super Low"? I have 64 watts in a crap $20 reflector over my 70.


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## msharper (Aug 19, 2011)

That's more a question of light versus C02. If your plant has more light it will require more nutrients, including nitrates and yes...C 0 2... But the way I see it is; if your able to supply the plants with just enough light that they grow and plant heavy in your setup compared to your fish stocking then the plants will be nutrient hungry and eat up those nitrates for you!


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Cool. That's what I'm hoping for. I'm a plant newb, by the way. This is my first planted tank.


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## msharper (Aug 19, 2011)

Gold Finger said:


> Whadda ya call "super Low"? I have 64 watts in a crap $20 reflector over my 70.


Oh yeah that's super low! Hell ya! That's killer! I have 80 watts total over my 90 and they are about 22" of the substrate. No worries. Slow growth is good. At first your tank looks like crap but once things grow in you can trim and move and take away. Then it's just as fun as a high tech setup.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Got more hornwort in (Volker gave me about 30 nice stems for $16... I tried to give him $20 but he wouldn't take it  )


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

And here's a closeup. It looks lighter colored than the first stuff.


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## Lutra (Sep 30, 2011)

I like it! Looks like a science fiction landscape, complete with sentient alien life floating dreamlike by us.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I know, right?


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## Lutra (Sep 30, 2011)

Something about the lighting, maybe. Reminds me of some of the watercolor covers on old SF magazines.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Thanks, I'm diggin' it too and I really do get the sci fi thing too. The alien look may be related to the fact that none of the plants have normal leaf lookin' leaves, except for the little twisty vals which don't show up in the picture anyway. The tank, by the way, is not planted in an attempt to make it look good, but to filter well. Those plants were chosen purely for function; they are fast growing low light leaf feeders which are not shaped to shade out other plants. Though I would, obviously prefer if it looked better than worse.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

fff


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

My overflow adaptation got rid of all the floating particles, so I don't need another pump/filter. 

The fluorite black sand is sticking to the cabomba and vals badly. The constant grazing by the goldfish really kicks it up. I could live without the cabomba but if the hornwort fell victim to it I would be seriously set back. I think I will have to cap the FBS. Pool filter sand comes to mind.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Maybe sand blasting glass beads would be an ideal cap. Talk about easy on the fish's mouths! PFS or graded SBS will do though.

I should have mixed the FBS right into the mud along with the crushed coral and capped the whole mess with something dustless. The FBS must be well rinsed to get rid of the fines to reduce the dust problems. This wastes half the FBS. Even then, I don't think it should ever be used with aggressive grazers like golds when plants are involved.

I am reasonably sure that I can get away with a 1 inch cap over the FBS.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Hope everyone had a great Christmas!

Looks like the hornwort's growing over half an inch a day, and the Ambulia's not far behind it.










I think I will leave the substrate as it is for now. My two favorite, and most important, plants are unaffected by the FBS dust and I fully trust neither my amateur appraisal of the problem, nor my planned solution. Changes often have unintended side effects.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

My mystery plant is Mayaca fluviatilis. Apparently it is a good indicator of iron, the shoots turning white when the nutrient is deficient. huh.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I have a new cabomba shoot which looks way bigger, nicer, and fuller than the other stuff. Either I imported a different plant unknowingly or, as I suspect, this plant is highly "variable" (plastomorphic ???). Perhaps my conditions are better for it than those at the store it came from. The conditions there were terrible.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Am still anxious (neurotic?) about the FBS dust in my tank. It sticks to (some) plants and predisposes them to algae. I seem to have two very different looking hornworts and the larger, darker green one is suffering from both FBS dust and algae. I may still resist the urge to recap and just wait and see if the dust abates. For one thing, the sand layer beneath the FBS is begining to rise and dominate the top layer. I expected this since it has some larger grains. Perhaps they will change places entirely solving my dust problem, and bringing some nice nutrients down to the dirt with the FBS to boot.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I added a light timer I found for $3. Will run 8 hours a day. I added a second power head which does, indeed, run the overflow at full bore. This rids the need of the overflow rig to filter both the column and skim at once. The tank/overflow runs at a higher head now and filters high and low. It creates the potential to loose a gallon or two over the sump rim in case of power failure. I will sit the bucket inside a larger container. The higher current and turnover should keep the tank even cleaner and help with FBS fines. I will add another Hydro sponge to the new power head. This will open up some maintenance options and I like the split bac colony. I considered switching my sponge to poret foam which would last longer but will stick with Hydro which I think works better. I don't really know that the double filter is a big improvement beyond bacterial fail safe. It is a complication. It conflicts with my ideas about simplicity a little.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Am considering replacing the large dark variety of hornwort which occupies the back right corner of my tank with creeping jenny which is a good indicator for nitrate and must therefore be a good nitrate sponge.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Think my nutrients may still be high. Will switch to NLS food and feed less. A stable tank is more important to me than faster fish growth.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

"low maintenance", and "goldfish tank" just don't go together easily. Too much waste. If I am going to keep my nutrients down and my WC's too, I am going to have to clean my filters more often. Weekly, I imagine.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I yanked the big, dark green hornwort out of the corner since it was harboring algae and thinned a few random plants whose stems were trapping too much debris around their bases. I am done tolerating algae. Let the battle begin!

I may add CO2 to speed my growth. Guess that's not what most folks would call "low tech".


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

*Algae*

I have decided it is time to get rid of my algae. When I started this, my first planted and my first substrate, tank I let the detritus and nutrients build up. I also let the algae go wild since it was taking up nutrients as well as the plants were and keeping my fish safe. Before this I always kept bare bottom tanks and kept them spotlessly clean. Some of my old thinking is coming back...

To control algae you need to understand the dynamic relationships of lights, CO2, O2, organic matter, nutrients, flow, etc. You start with the light which drives the whole process. I have very low light which means my plants will not grow fast or use much nutrient. The benefit here is that the nitrite and nitrate will not easily get too low which is a trigger for algae. The next factor is CO2/O2. even at my very low light level I am probably too low in these gasses. I will need to add agitation and or an air stone to raise them closer to atmospheric levels. Aggravating the problem is the fact that I let my substrate and filters get too clogged. This lowered O2 and reduced the general health of my tank by allowing too large a colony of bacs including many of the wrong bacs. The second filter will help and I will increase my maintenance of it and the substrate. Flow (circulation) was another issue. I did not have enough to deliver the nutrients to my plants well.

If I still have algae problems after these measures it may mean my plants are taking up too much nutrient. Easy fix. Thin the plants.


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

They say that in the begining of a planted tanks life it is common to get algae, and that you just need to let it run its cylce....i have no info about it but thats what i have heard...


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

Ha ha, just saw your comment on my thread in the algae forum, guess we are on the same track!


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Yeah. I think I still deserve the "Algae Grower" tag. Am suspecting it is gonna be a real battle for me. It seems at least as complicated as nitrifying/ denitrifying bacteria, and those took me some time to really understand well. As for the diatomes being expected in the new tanks, I am pretty sure that is due to incompletely cycled tanks which don't get rid of ammonia well. My tank started with a fully mature filter, but I under planted and I over fed and under cleaned and ran 14 hours of light, so I got tons of it. The funny thing about ammonia is that it really is always present despite what our test kits say (0.ppm ammonia). It's what the plants are eating, so it is there and will always be. I guess the trick is getting the plants to eat it, and the other forms of N, but not letting the algae eat it. I barely understand it at all.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/algae/155230-hair-algae-no-growth-updated-pics.html#post1604609

The stuff mentioned here is carbon plus phosphate plus ammonia adsorber.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Here's another explanation on startup diatomes by a member called "Higher Thinking" which I copied from one of his/her posts:

The diatom algae is of no concern because it happens in new tanks ALL the time. The diatoms feed off your silicates and once they are used up, then the diatoms disappear.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I had vowed not to test my water ever again but... That may have been a bit... not smart.
one of my fish was not looking exactly right. The small female tele was sleeping too long so I decided I had better test. It turns out my nitrates were over 10 ppm. I knew this would happen if the plants got all of their nutrients from the ammonia and nitrite which, apparently, they are. Perhaps my new cleaning regimen will sort this out, or maybe the plants will grow faster once they have acclimatized better. Otherwise I need more plants or simply must do larger water changes. Sheesh.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I spread out the clusters and moved the plants away from the tank walls to minimize places debris collects. I also adjusted the inlets to blow around the perimeter for the same reason.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Maybe my nitrates are not as bad as I thought. Sure, right now I have 10ppm after a month with only random 5% vacs which would be too high for low WC's to control but I think much of that was locked up as algae and re released recently when I killed the algae. If it had been algae free from the beginning those nutrient would have been locked up as plant growth. Also, The bacs are obviously getting a good deal of the ammonia right now, so maybe the plants will get a better percentage as they settle in. Time... and testing, will tell.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I took about ten gallons out of the 70 while cleaning which is, of course, not enough to do anything substantial to the ~10ppm nitrate. I am still hoping it will stabilize around there, one way or another. Between 5-10ppm would probably be perfect. Perhaps 5 is too low and would prompt algae.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

This tank definitely won't reach its potential until the plants have melted, regrown, and acclimatized. 

I am thinking about adding activated carbon (AC). It removes DOC and color and odor, without, according to Tom, removing all the fertz and iron. Should be a no brainer in a low WC tank.

PS trick NO. ? is keeping the filter and substrate cleaning up.

PPS the algae seems to be kept at bay except on the melting parts of the plants. I will remove all the melting stuff I can.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Bubbler.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I added the second #4 hydro Sponge to my "sump", and a cool swiveling elbow to the tank overflow output. The elbow was designed to eliminate noise and does, but it also allows me to stop the flow (or adjust it) from the tank by inverting the elbow. Very useful for working on the filters.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I will lose most of the hornwort to total melt. The cabomba I will leave alone as it sends up new plantlets but the hornwort does not. I will have to toss 75% of the bottom of all of it because it is melting terribly. .This wil, of course, set the tank's ability to remove nitrate back. 

I found NLS with both the new and old labels. Unfortunately I need the large pellets and those had the old soy labels. I am probably too suspicious, but I just don't trust what some stranger (and salesman) tells me over what the label says, so I will wait until I find a jar of the newly labeled large pellets then switch.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

My tank is designed to be low WC because I feel this will, theoretically, tend to be more stable. The success of this depends on what accumulates. Until now I did not know what happened to DOC in this kind of tank... Here's Barr's answer to that question:

"... we export DOC's with water changes, non CO2 tanks on the other hand w/no water changes do not have that export, so then the bacteria start to break it down into CO2 and energy via respiration which removes??

O2 to oxidize the DOC(reduced carbon).

Th low bioloading in non CO2 tanks is mainly to match the low NH4 removal and limited supply of CO2.

Many folks have more fish and more algae, but it's less to do with the DOC;s, but to some degeree that can reduce the dOC loading by having less fish, but plants are also a large source of DOC themselves, like 10% of their fixed carbon is leached out as DOC's..........

Regards, 
Tom Barr

So... I won't add activated carbon or purigen... It turns to CO2!!! HA HA HA HA! (you win some  )

I may still have to consider using zeolite though... The jury is still out on what my plants can do with my bio load, though. And more plants may come. Emergent plants should take it up a notch or two.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

*Another species?*

Val would be the natural choice for another plant. Egeria needs higher light. Vals are not supposed to like Ph as high as mine but my mini's are fine. Vals would take more ammonia than nitrate but that's fine as it reduces nitrate production. Once they emerge they should not only grow quickly but also leave the water CO2


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I was mistaken about my hornwort melting. It is merely beset by diatomes, so I don't need to cut it back. It might not hurt though. I don't think the bases grow at all and don't know if the stem bases help the overall growth or not. Perhaps if I were to prune the bottom half the growth would be unaffected??? In any case, the plants adapting to my parameters is the main factor in their performance, and will take time. The plantlets are up to ten times as fast growing as their parents.

If I am right in thinking that I had an ammonia spike from killing too much algae at once, what should I have done? (besides WC) most people would have reached for the Prime, but I wonder if it wouldn't be better to keep some Stability on hand for this kind of event. Besides taking care of the ammonia spike, the bacterial boost could help keep the right bacteria dominant.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Added Stability. If it does what they claim (big if) it is phenomenal. More stable, non sulpher fixing aerobes, anaerobes, and faculative anaerobes. It can't hurt.

Have noted that pruned tops of hornwort grow at least as fast as they did before pruning. Am getting rid of diatome covered stem bases.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

The next time I do a dirt tank I will mix Stability right into the mud to inoculate it with non sulfur fixing bacs and avoid hydrogen sulfide. I'd also mix Fluorite Sand right into the mud, cap with nice PFS or, better yet, sandblasting glass beads. I'd also keep the water level low enough the plants could access some surface CO2 for a month.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Parameters are stable. Nitrate seems to sit around 10ppm. True algae is all gone. Some diatomes persist. There is a small but growing patch of BG algae on the substrate which looks really cool; like grass. I don't know why they dont eat it. Both fish now sleep much more than before. I don't know why.


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

Hmm, sleeping fish.....what temp is your tank, how much aeration? I see you added a bubbler...is that the only one?

I have been outta the loop! Sounds like your tank is growing well. Any chance you can tank a full tank shot, id love to see it!!


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Good call! I forgot, but I have been keeping this tank unheated which works out to at least ten degrees below optimum. That's why they are sleeping more... no doubt. The tank has tons of O2 because of the overflow. The bubbler is there to keep the CO2 from dropping below atmospheric levels. 

I will try to post a pic tomorrow, but there's no big change. Almost all of the growth is very slow due to my ultra low light. Though the Fluviatilis Myaca (sp. ?) grows like wildfire.


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

See, input helps!! 
Lol, im glad i could help!

I am posting new pics here in a few mins myself too!


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

no algae left except diatomes. perhaps my substrate leaches silicates???


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

I think i get diatomes, i noticed if i have my second bulb on i grow them in a few days time, so i only have the second bulb on for a few hours every other day or so....


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

Hey goldfinger!
Whats the word on this tank?


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

*Ambulia has to go*

Well... The hornwort is a real star in an ultra low light setup. It grows like a weed, especially if it gets long light hours. Those long hours promote excessive diatom growth, though. The Diatom has never died off in this tank. I think the dirt bottom is providing an endless source of silicate. I may scrap the dirt. 
The ambulia grows so densely it makes cleaning the bottom too difficult. It won't do for a gold tank. I'll be moving in a month or two, so the tank will be torn down and the experiment will be over. The growth has nearly kept up with the nitrate production after two months without a water change, but the bottom has proved too hard to clean. The FBS is too hard to vacuum properly, too. The next time I set this tank up it will probably be with a simple, inert cleanable substrate and stems which don't need to root. Hornwort, and I don't know what else... Perhaps the "wort" alone could keep up with the nitrates in a plain gravel (or inert sand like PFS) setup. Neither the dirt, nor the rooted plants work well in trying to achieve a zero nitrate creep, no WC tank with golds... IME.:wink:


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

*Update*










Well its been ??? months since my last post so I guess Its time for an update...

The tank is super stable. No WCs, no vacuuming and absolutely no filter cleanings. All I have done is top off evaporation and pull plants when they get overgrown. I don't even have to feed the fish if I don't want to, they do fine on plants, algae and baby snails. So I guess its a success.

I never got on top of algae. Its still beyond me 

Ambulia gets munched a bit sometimes. Hornwort and vals never.

Am moving into an apartment next week. I am guessing they don't allow tanks. Will sneak it in at night :icon_twis


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

The move to my new apartment may well trigger a new stage for this tank. I would like to get the upper hand on the algae, perhaps by upping the light over 1 WPG, and maybe even scape the tank a little. Perhaps even experiment with some "real" plants (stems are all I have had to date).


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

Go for it! 
It's looking good for you! 
I personally like the jungle look though!
Good luck!


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## aweeby (Oct 1, 2011)

interesting thread. I'm planning to do something similar when I upgrade my sister's goldie tank, but sans stems. goldies, love them or not, are just little bulldozers. cute ones, but still.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Anyone reading this thread to learn about low maintainance/water quality issues should note that this tank has ZERO nitrates after months of no WCs. I strongly believe that it is due to the soil base. The plants may well have been able to achieve this without the soil but my experience (quite limited) is that they don't tend to get it all all the time without soil. The anaerobic soil allows them to easily convert the nitrate back (with the help of some anaerobes) to a nitrogen form they can easily consume. 

If there has been an issue (and I think there has) it is dissolved organic solids. In the future I will do water changes or, if I wanted to avoid the WCs, experiment with seachem's Purigen, which claims to deal with this issue.

I will stick with the soil base because it is a simple and effective, automatic, low maintenance, denitrification system. I am glad I tried this before one of those complex denitrifiers you read about people fussing with forever. This is a way better way to go.

This was an experiment and my tank won't stay like this. I quite enjoy some elements and will retain them while advancing the aesthetic value of the tank in the future. It is, likely to retire from the experimental arena and become a display tank.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

*Update Sept22/2012*

Have Moved the tank to my new apartment ( I snuck it in at 3am).

I had to separate and remove the layered substrate and had to top off the cap, so I used plain ol' sand which was all I had on hand.

There are some new plants and I have upped the light to 3-4 shoplight bulbs. I am adding excell. I had some BGA and wonder if the substrate caused it when some dirt got released during planting???
I'm off to europe for a week.


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## xjasminex (Jul 26, 2011)

The tank is looking good!
Im still having troubles with nitrates, but im always trying to fix those!
Your moor is looking huge too!!


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

I may be having trouble with Nitrate too. I think I may have too little, which was partly to blame for a Cyanobacteria outbreak I recently had. I may have to consider dosing it, but right now I'm looking further into using fish food alone as a complete nutrient source. I hope I can just more. Lord knows the moor will eat everything I throw in there. He's around six inches now. I credit the low Nitrate for what I think is pretty good growth. I was hoping to get him over 10" someday, but I have come to think that kind of size may only be possible in green water ponds.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

*The End*










Well, it has been a fun and informative endeavor but my dirt tank is no more. The sand cap on these dirt setups cannot be vacuumed all the way down to the mud. Normally that is fine; the detritus ends up being eaten by the plants. The problem was that I had goldfish in there and the waste production was just too much for the system. The technique is great but won't work with too high of a bio load i.e. goldfish. Messy buggers. It isn't a total surprise. I fought the poop all the way.

Its back to bare bottom for me. We will see how rooting plants do without a substrate. Fine, I imagine.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

This has been an interesting progressive thread from start to finish. 

Your Moores are soooo cute! Black Morres have always been my favorite in the goldfish species. I used to have a gravel bottom tank, planted just for our goldfish. They were great fish and didn't eat the plants. They did however kick them out from under the stones I used to anchor them weekly. I had Anubias varieties, crypts and Lemon Swords in the tank with them...oh and some Water Wisteria which they snacked on. The plant put up a good fight, but eventually, the goldfish won.

Anyway! Great Thread!


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Thanks. Panda moors or Panda butterflys are my new favorite fish. They are a new variety. I hope to raise some someday but they are hard to come by online.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

Gold Finger said:


> Thanks. Panda moors or Panda butterflys are my new favorite fish. They are a new variety. I hope to raise some someday but they are hard to come by online.


I haven't heard of them before. I'm going to check it out definetely!


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