# *Graphic pics* Help! Kuhli loach died with red sore, fluffy patches



## oscarlloydjohn (Dec 3, 2017)

Could be Hemorrhagic Septicemia or maybe fish tuberculosis (this is zoonotic so do be cautious). I think it is best for you to research these diseases and see which best matches your described symptoms before starting to treat.


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

oscarlloydjohn said:


> Could be Hemorrhagic Septicemia or maybe fish tuberculosis (this is zoonotic so do be cautious). I think it is best for you to research these diseases and see which best matches your described symptoms before starting to treat.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




It doesn't seem like fish TB. No bulging eyes, spinal deformities, missing scales, dropsy or getting thin. 

Someone on anther forum has also suggested aeromonas which can cause hemorrhagic septicaemia. 

This happened super fast. Yesterday I saw all 5 eating out in the front and I saw no ulcers. I'm nervous that even after I treat it's going to infect my healthy fish in the future since it seems so severe... 

I can't understand why it took a week to show up though. 


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## oscarlloydjohn (Dec 3, 2017)

Ravynn said:


> It doesn't seem like fish TB. No bulging eyes, spinal deformities, missing scales, dropsy or getting thin.
> 
> Someone on anther forum has also suggested aeromonas which can cause hemorrhagic septicaemia.
> 
> ...




I suppose an antibiotic like API Erythromycin would be the best option. I have hardly any experience in treating fish so hopefully someone else can chime in on this one.

If you think they are too far gone, and are a risk to other livestock you might want to consider humanely euthanising them. It's a sensitive topic so I'll leave that up to you.

Oscar


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

oscarlloydjohn said:


> I suppose an antibiotic like API Erythromycin would be the best option. I have hardly any experience in treating fish so hopefully someone else can chime in on this one.
> 
> If you think they are too far gone, and are a risk to other livestock you might want to consider humanely euthanising them. It's a sensitive topic so I'll leave that up to you.
> 
> Oscar




It is just the one loach as of now but I'm very concerned since one had died after shipment from the exact same thing 6 weeks prior. 

Just trying to find out what antibiotic is best since it seems like it's gram negative bacteria. Will look that one up. 


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Those lesions are very severe. I would say it is either aeromonas or columnarus bacteria, which are both gram negative bacteria.
Are any of your other fish showing symptoms of lesions now?
If not, I would recommend treating with nitrofurazone if your pH is lower than 7.2 or Triple Sulfa if your 7.3 and above. 
While you are treating, if you do not see improvement after 3 days ( or see worsening of symptoms) then you are dealing with a more serious columnaris infection and should add kanamycin to treatment as well.


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> Those lesions are very severe. I would say it is either aeromonas or columnarus bacteria, which are both gram negative bacteria.
> Are any of your other fish showing symptoms of lesions now?
> If not, I would recommend treating with nitrofurazone if your pH is lower than 7.2 or Triple Sulfa if your 7.3 and above.
> While you are treating, if you do not see improvement after 3 days ( or see worsening of symptoms) then you are dealing with a more serious columnaris infection and should add kanamycin to treatment as well.


Hi, i just picked up Kanaplex and Stress Guard so i'm planning on doing two back-to-back treatments. I've looked at a lot of pictures of columnaris and it is almost similar but isn't even though there was some fluffy patches. Looking at aeromonas vs columnaris ulcers, it looks like aeromonas ulcers. It's like a perfect clean cut that's somewhat bloody, rather than white/yellow dead skin around it.

No fish showing symptoms, they are sand sifting and active. My ph is around 7. I couldn't find any meds with just nitrofurazone, just Polyguard by Seachem which has a combo of meds.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

On the other hand, one might ask if it is really prudent to add further expense to what may be a total loss. Sometimes when we find ourselves in a hole, it is far better to crawl out of the hole rather than digging deeper! In this case the meds may be more expensive than the fish.


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

PlantedRich said:


> On the other hand, one might ask if it is really prudent to add further expense to what may be a total loss. Sometimes when we find ourselves in a hole, it is far better to crawl out of the hole rather than digging deeper! In this case the meds may be more expensive than the fish.


I thought of this as well. If the Kanaplex doesn't work, i'm not sure what else i should/could do. Either way, it seems this is a very serious case even though it has only affected one fish so far.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

PlantedRich said:


> On the other hand, one might ask if it is really prudent to add further expense to what may be a total loss. Sometimes when we find ourselves in a hole, it is far better to crawl out of the hole rather than digging deeper! In this case the meds may be more expensive than the fish.


*This mode of thinking would indeed be the right approach for some, but certainly not all. 
*
*Sometimes we may find ourselves not being successful in treating our fish- yes, absolutely. 
*
*But, sometimes we are when carefully considered.
*
*I dont think one way of thinking or approach ( euthanizing to cut our loses or attempting to treat after careful consideration) is any better than the other. 
*
*It is the personal choice of those in the situation and one that we cannot put our own sense of monetary value on.,
*


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

Columnaris description -
"An infection will usually first manifest in fish by causing frayed and ragged fins. This is followed by the appearance of ulcerations on the skin, and subsequent epidermal loss, identifiable as white or cloudy, fungus-like patches – particularly on the gill filaments. Mucus often also accumulates on the gills, head and dorsal regions. Gills will change colour, either becoming light or dark brown, and may also manifest necrosis. Fish will breathe rapidly and laboriously as a sign of gill damage. Anorexia and lethargy are common, as are mortalities, especially in young fish."

I kinda lean towards columnaris, as Discusluv mentioned. My understanding is fish respond pretty well to treatment for Columnaris, is this not correct??


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

mgeorges said:


> Columnaris description -
> "An infection will usually first manifest in fish by causing frayed and ragged fins. This is followed by the appearance of ulcerations on the skin, and subsequent epidermal loss, identifiable as white or cloudy, fungus-like patches – particularly on the gill filaments. Mucus often also accumulates on the gills, head and dorsal regions. Gills will change colour, either becoming light or dark brown, and may also manifest necrosis. Fish will breathe rapidly and laboriously as a sign of gill damage. Anorexia and lethargy are common, as are mortalities, especially in young fish."
> 
> I kinda lean towards columnaris, as Discusluv mentioned. My understanding is fish respond pretty well to treatment for Columnaris, is this not correct??


Would this go from normal behavior to dead within 24hrs though? The gills didn't seem affected either. It makes me even more nervous if it's columnaris as the combo of kanaplex+nitrofuran is recommended but i don't have access to nitrofuran. 

I just inspected all 4 with a flashlight and nothing seems to be off. I added the medication as well.

Edit: Also worth noting, the open wound next to the gill had blood coming out of it on the paper towel


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

mgeorges said:


> Columnaris description -
> "An infection will usually first manifest in fish by causing frayed and ragged fins. This is followed by the appearance of ulcerations on the skin, and subsequent epidermal loss, identifiable as white or cloudy, fungus-like patches – particularly on the gill filaments. Mucus often also accumulates on the gills, head and dorsal regions. Gills will change colour, either becoming light or dark brown, and may also manifest necrosis. Fish will breathe rapidly and laboriously as a sign of gill damage. Anorexia and lethargy are common, as are mortalities, especially in young fish."
> 
> I kinda lean towards columnaris, as Discusluv mentioned. My understanding is fish respond pretty well to treatment for Columnaris, is this not correct??


 If responded to quickly, yes, fish do recover from columnaris with a combination treatment of nitrofurazone/kanamycin. These 2 drugs work synergistically and are much more effective in treating the condition than using one alone.

With the the description that you included of columnaris above, I would also say that the likelihood of what OP is dealing with is high that it is columnaris.


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> If responded to quickly, yes, fish do recover from columnaris with a combination treatment of nitrofurazone/kanamycin. These 2 drugs work synergistically and are much more effective in treating the condition than using one alone.
> 
> With the the description that you included of columnaris above, I would also say that the likelihood of what OP is dealing with is high that it is columnaris.


Guess i'm out of luck then. :|


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

Ravynn said:


> Would this go from normal behavior to dead within 24hrs though? The gills didn't seem affected either. It makes me even more nervous if it's columnaris as the combo of kanaplex+nitrofuran is recommended but i don't have access to nitrofuran.
> 
> I just inspected all 4 with a flashlight and nothing seems to be off. I added the medication as well.
> 
> Edit: Also worth noting, the open wound next to the gill had blood coming out of it on the paper towel


I don't know how quickly young fish can succumb to either disease. Considering they are recently purchased, lingering stress from being moved could lower immune response, allowing disease to spread more aggressively. 
You say the gills weren't affected, but it looks like there is an ulcer sitting right on the edge of the gill flap, possibly infiltrating into the gills. The blood coming out isn't surprising for an open ulcer that severe. You probably know this, but I'll say it anyways - do not flush that fish. Bury it out in the yard or chuck it in the trash. 

Medication is not my area of expertise, but Seachem claims that Kanaplex is effective in treating Columnaris. They also advise not to mix with other medications to reduce additional strain on potentially immuno-compromised fish. Take that with a grain of salt, I'd heed the above advice and mix if possible. If you can't get the nitro, maybe extend the Kanaplex dosing?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

There are four types of columnaris. Each type has its own expression of symptoms and will kill the fish at different rates. The quickest type is symptomless and can kill from 24-48 hours. The slowest can take several weeks and pick your fish off one at a time starting with the weakest fish and moving to undermine the health of the strongest. The other two types are somewhere in between in its syptoms and time-frame.
The types are variable.

Nitrofurizone can be found in API's Furan 2 @ Petco and Petsmart and Jungle Fungus Tabs at many different big box Pet Stores and Walmart. Of course, both can be found at Amazon.

Here is the Jungle Brand:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Jungle-Fungus-Clear-Tank-Buddies-Fizz-Tabs-8-Count/10313047


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

mgeorges said:


> I don't know how quickly young fish can succumb to either disease. Considering they are recently purchased, lingering stress from being moved could lower immune response, allowing disease to spread more aggressively.
> You say the gills weren't affected, but it looks like there is an ulcer sitting right on the edge of the gill flap, possibly infiltrating into the gills. The blood coming out isn't surprising for an open ulcer that severe. You probably know this, but I'll say it anyways - do not flush that fish. Bury it out in the yard or chuck it in the trash.
> 
> Medication is not my area of expertise, but Seachem claims that Kanaplex is effective in treating Columnaris. They also advise not to mix with other medications to reduce additional strain on potentially immuno-compromised fish. Take that with a grain of salt, I'd heed the above advice and mix if possible. If you can't get the nitro, maybe extend the Kanaplex dosing?


I'm not sure if these kuhlis were young, they seem to be quite larger than the others that i have. I wanted to see if the ulcer was on the gill but i wiped it a little and it's right above where the pectoral fin meets the body right next to the gill but not on the gill. Of course that doesn't really mean anything.. i put the fish in a baggy in the freezer and will put it in the trash.



Discusluv said:


> There are four types of columnaris. Each type has its own expression of symptoms and will kill the fish at different rates. The quickest type is symptomless and can kill from 24-48 hours. The slowest can take several weeks and pick your fish off one at a time starting with the weakest fish and moving to undermine the health of the strongest. The other two types are somewhere in between in its syptoms and time-frame.
> The types are variable.
> 
> Nitrofurizone can be found in API's Furan 2 @ Petco and Petsmart and Jungle Fungus Tabs at many different big box Pet Stores. Of course, both can be found at Amazon.


I'm in Canada, so no Petco and my Petsmart or Amazon doesn't sell Furan 2.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I see, didn't realize that you were in Canada, then your second choice would be a combination of Triple Sulfa ( if can get this) and kanamycin.


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> I see, didn't realize that you were in Canada, then your second choice would be a combination of Triple Sulfa ( if can get this) and kanamycin.


Is this a good alternative? https://www.seachem.com/sulfaplex.php

I will get this if after treating with Kanaplex it doesn't go away. As they say bad things come in threes, my car is also broken down and i live in a very rural area so i have to rely on someone else for a drive, so not possible to go to the store again at the moment


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Ravynn said:


> Is this a good alternative? https://www.seachem.com/sulfaplex.php
> 
> 
> 
> I will get this if after treating with Kanaplex it doesn't go away. As they say bad things come in threes, my car is also broken down and i live in a very rural area so i have to rely on someone else for a drive, so not possible to go to the store again at the moment




Yes, this is a good alternative. Do you have metheleyne blue on hand?


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

My recommendation to think over culling sooner rather than later is not simply a matter of cost but also what is happening with the other fish at the same time. We do know that it is pretty much standard operation to separate sick people from well people, so when there are sick fish and they are not separated from well fish, we are actually not doing ANY of the fish a favor. Better one, which is obviously sick, to die than to let them all die? 
But it is just a suggestion and it is a personal decision. Any good honest doctor, vet or farmer will tell you the value of preventing the spread of disease resulting in death. So if it becomes a matter of killing one fish or letting all the fish die, I advise culling, sooner rather than later.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> Yes, this is a good alternative. Do you have metheleyne blue on hand?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Nevermind, about the metheleyne blue, you have Stressguard, which will work just as well. It is also for wounds and works similarly as a redox agent. 


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

PlantedRich said:


> My recommendation to think over culling sooner rather than later is not simply a matter of cost but also what is happening with the other fish at the same time. We do know that it is pretty much standard operation to separate sick people from well people, so when there are sick fish and they are not separated from well fish, we are actually not doing ANY of the fish a favor. Better one, which is obviously sick, to die than to let them all die?
> But it is just a suggestion and it is a personal decision. Any good honest doctor, vet or farmer will tell you the value of preventing the spread of disease resulting in death. So if it becomes a matter of killing one fish or letting all the fish die, I advise culling, sooner rather than later.


The fish in question has already died, i'm confused as to what are you suggesting?



Discusluv said:


> Nevermind, about the metheleyne blue, you have Stressguard, which will work just as well. It is also for wounds and works similarly as a redox agent.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I didn't know it worked like metheleyne blue does. I heard of it online and grabbed it when i saw it. I added the recommended dose to the tank as well.

What if these kuhlis are carriers of it even with no symptoms... which makes me think what if after all of this i introduce them into my main tank and my others get it? Arghhh...

Also, should i be disinfecting the equipment i'm using for the quarantine? Like siphon tubing and bucket..


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

PlantedRich said:


> My recommendation to think over culling sooner rather than later is not simply a matter of cost but also what is happening with the other fish at the same time. We do know that it is pretty much standard operation to separate sick people from well people, so when there are sick fish and they are not separated from well fish, we are actually not doing ANY of the fish a favor. Better one, which is obviously sick, to die than to let them all die?
> But it is just a suggestion and it is a personal decision. Any good honest doctor, vet or farmer will tell you the value of preventing the spread of disease resulting in death. So if it becomes a matter of killing one fish or letting all the fish die, I advise culling, sooner rather than later.


In a display tank, I totally agree. But in a QT, which the OP stated he/she is using, and since we're quite likely dealing with a highly contagious disease, culling won't make a difference in this case. If one fish has Columnaris, then they've all already been exposed.

Bump:


Ravynn said:


> What if these kuhlis are carriers of it even with no symptoms... which makes me think what if after all of this i introduce them into my main tank and my others get it? Arghhh...
> 
> Also, should i be disinfecting the equipment i'm using for the quarantine? Like siphon tubing and bucket..


Very legit concerns. Is it a gamble you're willing to take? In theory, run the course of medication and you should be good to go. In theory...
I'd also do an extended quarantine. Keep them isolated for 6 weeks or better.

Yes, I would disinfect EVERYTHING you've used for the QT if it could ever enter your display tank.


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

mgeorges said:


> Very legit concerns. Is it a gamble you're willing to take? In theory, run the course of medication and you should be good to go. In theory...
> I'd also do an extended quarantine. Keep them isolated for 6 weeks or better.
> 
> Yes, I would disinfect EVERYTHING you've used for the QT if it could ever enter your display tank.


Oh man, i don't know! I've just gotten back into the hobby after 5 years not into it back in November and i haven't had a relaxing moment yet. I've been wanting more fish for a while but didn't have a QT set up, so finally did and i get this.

I'm using separate equipment for my tanks, was just wondering if i should be disinfecting the equipment specifically for the qt. I'm using 1 bucket for clean and dirty water so i don't get mixed up with my other buckets. Also is there anything specific that is best to disinfect?


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

Ravynn said:


> Oh man, i don't know! I've just gotten back into the hobby after 5 years not into it back in November and i haven't had a relaxing moment yet. I've been wanting more fish for a while but didn't have a QT set up, so finally did and i get this.
> 
> I'm using separate equipment for my tanks, was just wondering if i should be disinfecting the equipment specifically for the qt. I'm using 1 bucket for clean and dirty water so i don't get mixed up with my other buckets. Also is there anything specific that is best to disinfect?


Bleach. I love bleach. 
I would sterilize to prevent re-introduction to the QT. I know that in my hoses I use for draining tanks, water gets trapped and pools in places. Columnaris could just chill in those pockets and wait...
So run a bleach solution through your siphon hoses, buckets, etc.. This may be on the overly cautious side, but is there such a thing when we could be dealing with a highly contagious fish disease?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Columnaris does take the weakest fish first in a given system no matter which type you are dealing with. Most diseases whether bacteria, viral, or parasitic work this way.

The most virulent strain of Columnaris is extremely contagious, it will eventually take out the majority of your stock- beginning with the weakest and eventually taking the strong as well- a small percentage of fish will survive depending on past exposure, the species and the environmental conditions this species is in, etc...

The weakest strain of Columnaris has the capacity to kill all immuno-compromised and genetically weak fish and the strong may not be impacted if all environmental stessors are kept in check. So, there is some truth to the assertion to separate the strong from the sick and the weakened. But, doing this, separating and treating the sick (or culling and not treating) from the visibly strong in a display tank takes knowing which strain you are dealing with. If you have a microscope and the knowledge to determine the strain then this will be the correct procedure. Most do not.

The other two strains of columnaris are so variable that they can wipe out the the weak, stressed fish, certain species and not others, etc... 

So, I will not say anyone's judgement on what to do in these situations are wrong. I always choose to treat all fish when exposed and recognize Columnaris with the assumption that I have the most virulent strain.
I always treat my fish regardless of their monetary value. Others may find they weigh this before medicating. To each his/her own.


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

mgeorges said:


> Bleach. I love bleach.
> I would sterilize to prevent re-introduction to the QT. I know that in my hoses I use for draining tanks, water gets trapped and pools in places. Columnaris could just chill in those pockets and wait...
> So run a bleach solution through your siphon hoses, buckets, etc.. This may be on the overly cautious side, but is there such a thing when we could be dealing with a highly contagious fish disease?


Since i'm going to have to do water changes and doses every 48 hrs, how should i proceed with this? If i use bleach, don't i have to let the equipment sit in dechlorinated water for a specific amount of time? I might have another bucket i could use just for clean water but where should i be putting the siphon if i need to soak in bleach solution?

My head is a little fried from so much reasearch today


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

While doing water changes for quarantine tank while medicating you do not have to sterilize between each water change. Take the hose outside along with any nets have used during water change- let air-dry. Extend hose completely and place wherever it will get enough sun to dry between water changes. 

When are done treating completely can sterilize in 3 percent bleach solution all equipment used in quarantine during illness, rinse well, and then let completely air-dry like described above.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

I think you are likely to be in a situation most of us will find if we stay in the game long enough. You likely have a bit of money tied up in fish that are sick, so the question becomes one of how much more time, effort and money to invest to try to keep those fish alive. Are you more prone to being happy with saving half the fish if it takes weeks of major worry, major stress and still half have died?
It is a personal choice and sometimes we do need to go through the process several times to find what feels right for us, personally. I grew up on and around farms and it is a constant question when raising any type of animal, so perhaps, I am more inclined to cull quicker than others. 
I just simply do not have the time, effort, money or attitude to try doing a job which so often fails. I try to treat my fish or animals with the highest compassion and that certainly does include avoiding their slow, awful death. 
I have friends dying in the same awful way who have begged to die but cannot. Until you have had a friend or two die of something like Alzheimer's or cancer, it may be difficult saying death is a good thing. 
But I am allowed to make that decision for my fish!


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> While doing water changes for quarantine tank while medicating you do not have to sterilize between each water change. Take the hose outside along with any nets have used during water change- let air-dry. Extend hose completely and place wherever it will get enough sun to dry between water changes.
> 
> When are done treating completely can sterilize in 3 percent bleach solution all equipment used in quarantine during illness, rinse well, and then let completely air-dry like described above.


I'm using airline tubing for a siphon and water does sit in it after using. I'll try to keep them outside after using, it's been raining on and off here.



PlantedRich said:


> I think you are likely to be in a situation most of us will find if we stay in the game long enough. You likely have a bit of money tied up in fish that are sick, so the question becomes one of how much more time, effort and money to invest to try to keep those fish alive. Are you more prone to being happy with saving half the fish if it takes weeks of major worry, major stress and still half have died?
> It is a personal choice and sometimes we do need to go through the process several times to find what feels right for us, personally. I grew up on and around farms and it is a constant question when raising any type of animal, so perhaps, I am more inclined to cull quicker than others.
> I just simply do not have the time, effort, money or attitude to try doing a job which so often fails. I try to treat my fish or animals with the highest compassion and that certainly does include avoiding their slow, awful death.
> I have friends dying in the same awful way who have begged to die but cannot. Until you have had a friend or two die of something like Alzheimer's or cancer, it may be difficult saying death is a good thing.
> But I am allowed to make that decision for my fish!


My head has been spinning all day already. I'm very nervous about cross-contamination and i'm worried that even after treating that they will remain carriers (seems now i can't get this out of my head). I'm a person to get stressed out pretty easily.

I have a lot of money and time invested into my main tank. It may not be the biggest tank but i live in a rural area where everything costs more and rarely can you find things second-hand. My original kuhlis have been more nocturnal as of late and i was hoping to get some activity in there but now this has just put me off from getting anymore fish at all, which is another bummer since i'm not too satisfied with my tank right now.

I just don't have a lot of money lying around for experimental situations like this. I'm not sure what to do.


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

So, I woke up this morning and I was thinking about something. 

These loaches came in the store May 31st. 10 were ordered and 3 died not long after. They were there 5 weeks 5 days before I got them. Wouldn't columnaris have killed them already, before I got them? Considering it doesn't seem like I would have a slow strain of it... 

Maybe I'm wrong 


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Here are a couple articles that are excellent that may help with some of the questions you have:

https://www.myaquariumclub.com/colu...out-the-types-causes-and-treatments-1689.html

https://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/columnaris_disease.php


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> Here are a couple articles that are excellent that may help with some of the questions you have:
> 
> https://www.myaquariumclub.com/colu...out-the-types-causes-and-treatments-1689.html
> 
> https://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/columnaris_disease.php


It seems like every strain can have white lesions but this fish didn't. I don't know what to think, so I'll just continue my planned treatment and hope for the best.


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## Sentinel (Jul 15, 2018)

What the heck


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Sentinel said:


> What the heck


???


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

1st round of Kanaplex treatment was over yesterday in the quarantine. All 4 active and well. But.....

I was in the middle of a water change last night on my main kuhli tank when all of a sudden one of my kuhlis started corkscrewing around the tank uncontrollably. I scooped him up in a net and he would stop breathing then start back up again. He died just 10 minutes later. I couldn't see anything wrong with him until I shined a light on him. 

There was 2 scrape wounds on his back, underneath his eyes/above the mouth was bloody underneath the skin, his anus looked red, and one of the black bars on his body was pale.

I got him and him a few others back in May. Could this be related to what the kuhli died from in qt? Or maybe it's the other way around? Do I need to medicate my main tank with Kanaplex? I don't want my BB to die, plus I have a lot of organic material in my tank. How do I sterilize everything I use (or find the time, ha) to make sure I don't re-contaminate everything! Ugh.

I've been so anxious and stressed about my tanks, I feel like giving up


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

Kanaplex won't hurt BB. I had a very similar disease spread through my Corys in my display tank end of last year. Corys would wildly barrel roll through the water, then seem fine, then barrel roll some more and eventually die. They outwardly looked totally fine. I treated with Kanaplex and Metroplex. The deaths SLOWED after that, but when all was said and done, I had lost something like 9 out of 13 Corydoras pandas and 7 out of 9 Corydoras habrosus. It was devastating... Never figured out what the actual culprit was, I had assumed potentially fish TB, columnaris, or another bacterial infection due to how quickly many of them died after initial symptom.

As far as it spreading from your QT to your display tank, I have no idea if these diseases can become airborne and spread from one body of water to another. That's above my pay grade. If you used something from the QT in the DT, then it's certainly possible that there was cross contamination. 

@Discusluv have you seen anything like this before? Any ideas on this corkscrewing through the water?


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

mgeorges said:


> Kanaplex won't hurt BB. I had a very similar disease spread through my Corys in my display tank end of last year. Corys would wildly barrel roll through the water, then seem fine, then barrel roll some more and eventually die. They outwardly looked totally fine. I treated with Kanaplex and Metroplex. The deaths SLOWED after that, but when all was said and done, I had lost something like 9 out of 13 Corydoras pandas and 7 out of 9 Corydoras habrosus. It was devastating... Never figured out what the actual culprit was, I had assumed potentially fish TB, columnaris, or another bacterial infection due to how quickly many of them died after initial symptom.
> 
> As far as it spreading from your QT to your display tank, I have no idea if these diseases can become airborne and spread from one body of water to another. That's above my pay grade. If you used something from the QT in the DT, then it's certainly possible that there was cross contamination.
> 
> @Discusluv have you seen anything like this before? Any ideas on this corkscrewing through the water?


I have catappa leaves and other types of driftwood in my main tank. Would it be a good idea to take out the leaves before I dose with Kanaplex (if they soak up the meds)?

My qt is upstairs and my display tank is downstairs and I haven't used any equipment from the qt. I only have snails, 2 shrimp and these remaining kuhlis in my display tank. I've barely stocked it and now I have this mystery illness. How am I going to ever confidently stock it. :icon_frow


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I have heard of both parasites and water quality issues causing this barrel-rolling in corydoras. But, it appears odd to me that this occurred when doing water change. 
Were you adding water back in when this barreling started or taking out?


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> I have heard of both parasites and water quality issues causing this barrel-rolling in corydoras. But, it appears odd to me that this occurred when doing water change.
> 
> Were you adding water back in when this barreling started or taking out?




I was adding water back in but this usually makes them come out and get excited anyway. It could of disturbed him since he liked to hang out underneath driftwood. It's like he corkscrewed around because he was a few minutes away from death 


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Because the only symptom we have is this one, its very hard to determine exactly what it is. Need to search out other information.

If I had this happen in my tank I would first look at the water ( both the tap and my tank)- water tests.
I would examine all other fish closely for any issues such as not eating, external issues like discoloration or whitened areas, red gills, reddened vent, white, clear or translucent feces, red worms from vent?.
Has there been a chance of cross-contamination from quarantine to display or visa versa? Wet hands or sleeves, nets, siphon, plants driftwood or rock ( still wet)? 
Are there any stressors in display tank: these are the ways that illness gets in. Correct temperature? Nitrates- are they too high? Filters- maintained regularly and flow good? 
This is my thought process when my fish get ill.


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> Because the only symptom we have is this one, its very hard to determine exactly what it is. Need to search out other information.
> 
> If I had this happen in my tank I would first look at the water ( both the tap and my tank)- water tests.
> I would examine all other fish closely for any issues such as not eating, external issues like discoloration or whitened areas, red gills, reddened vent, white, clear or translucent feces, red worms from vent?.
> ...


Well, there was also the wounds on him and bloody parts. It's very, very hard to examine these kuhlis considering they hide all day. All of the dwarf kuhli look okay and 3 of the big ones i've seen since yesterday look okay. They're eating as far as I can tell. I've never seen poop coming from my kuhlis ever. No whitened areas as far as I can tell right now

I used filter media from my display tank to cycle the qt tank. I didn't use any nets, use separate siphons, no decorations, no wet hands since i don't do water changes on the same days. It's been very hot the past couples of weeks, we've had heat warnings.. 38C/100F outside today. Nitrates are always 10ppm or under. Filter is okay.

I'm nervous to medicate the tank without knowing what's going on.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I would suggest going to the experts on https://forums.loaches.com/viewforum.php?f=7&sid=cffe65d05584c326ca25ada717ee4e44.

I have never had loaches and they are a very particular species.


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> I would suggest going to the experts on https://forums.loaches.com/viewforum.php?f=7&sid=cffe65d05584c326ca25ada717ee4e44.
> 
> I have never had loaches and they are a very particular species.


Great idea. Will do. Thank you so much


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