# Tank Crashed



## DMAXNAZ (Sep 30, 2015)

Saturday morning shrimp were dead laying all on one side of the tank. The fish that were still alive were at the top of the tank trying to breathe fresh air. Shrimps and tons of ramshorns were all also at the top of the water line. 

Here is a picture I took last week after removing the hob. I was amazed at how far it has come in the last few months. I ended up losing my L201, 95% of my shrimp and my oldest sterbai. It was very upsetting to see the carnage in the tank Saturday morning. I was able to save a few shrimp including a few babies, my nerite, three sterbais and my beta. They were rehoused between two other tanks. I had to run down to petsmart to grab some hiding places for the rcs shrimp in my edge 6g. My old beta in there thought dinner was coming early on Saturday. I had to remove my danios and ghost shrimp from my edge 6g and move them downstairs to my spec 5g. Quite an ordeal to figure out how to house everything.

Now to why this happened. I'm hoping for input on this. The tank had been running fine with a 30g hob and a foam filter in the tank. I added a canister a week prior. Come Wednesday I figured that the tank had enough bio and with the sponge going in the tank I could take the purigen and bio media from the hob and move to the canister. I checked my water parameters Friday and they were close to normal. Ammonia was .25ppm which for some reason seems to have been the norm since day one with this tank, Nitrites 1ppm and Nitrates 20ppm which have also been the norm. I needed to add water anyways so I also added so added some API safe start. Enough to treat the tank. Did this kick something off overnight? After rehousing Saturday morning I checked the parametres again. Ammonia .25ppm, Nitrites 3ppm and Nitrates 40ppm. Tank water still clear. Saturday afternoon the tank clouded right up and you could see the cycle.

Did removing the hob cause this? I figured relocating the media to the canister would be fine since I still had the foam filter running. Did the API safestart do something?? What did I do wrong??


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Here is one possibility.

Sudden gasping at the surface and lots of dying shrimp are usually from a lack of oxygen. The hob probably agitated the surface enough to keep the water oxygenated well. When it was removed for the canister this was lost. If you had a high number of fish and shrimp they probably used up all the oxygen and suffocated to death.


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## DMAXNAZ (Sep 30, 2015)

The spray bar has the surface moving a little and the foam filter is ran by an airline which puts oxygen into the water. Was that still not enough you think?? They were fine for two days without the hob...


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

I dont think lack of 02 was the issue. Is it possible a contaminant entered the water like copper? Once those shrimp die I would have expected an ammonia spike? So I guess I would think that copper or something else killed the shrimp then the dead shrimp caused an ammonia spike which then affected the fish. I dont know if this is what happened but maybe it seems logical enough to explore.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

> Nitrites 1ppm





> Nitrites 3ppm


NO2 at 1ppm is toxic level. Gotta do something right away.
NO2 at 3ppm is emergency action (90% water change) required. 

Rising nitrite shows the nitrifying bacteria have been partially killed. The ammonia -> Nitrite bacteria are still on the job, maybe something bothered them a bit (based on the trace of ammonia), but they mostly are still busily turning ammonia into nitrite. The ammonia oxidizing organisms breed somewhat faster than the nitrite oxidizing organisms, and are more tolerant of some possible problems, so they would recover a bit faster if something did happen.

Nitrite -> nitrate bacteria are partially gone, proven by the rising NO2 and NO3. Enough survived to keep turning some of the NO2 into NO3, but enough had died to not turn all the NO2 into NO3. These are the slowest growing ones. If something happened to the bio filter, the ammonia oxidizing species take less of a hit, and recover faster. They then produce more NO2 than the compromised population can handle. 

Nitrite binds with the fish blood in a way that the blood cannot carry oxygen very well. The technical name for this is methemeglobinemia. (Mammals get it too). The fish basically suffocate, so are found high in the tank trying to get more oxygen, or else weak or dead on the floor of the tank. In this case it seems to have affected the shrimp and snails, too. 
https://www.addl.purdue.edu/newsletters/1998/spring/nitrate.shtml

Treatment:
1) Immediate 90% water change, or 2 x 75% water change back to back. Use a dechlor that locks up nitrite (Prime is one). Continue water changes at a frequency and volume to keep the NO2 under 1 ppm. 
2) Add salt (NaCl) at the rate of 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons. This is a low level, well tolerated by fish and plants. The chloride interferes with the NO2 crossing the gills, when the NO2 is at lower levels (under 1 ppm). When you do a water change dose the new water at this rate (ie: a 5 gallon water change gets 1/4 tsp salt). When the NO2 no longer shows on the tests stop adding salt and allow regular water changes to get rid of it. 
3) Add a source of Nitrospira species of bacteria. These are the Nitrite oxidizing bacteria that this tank is missing. The correct species can be found in Tetra Safe Start, Dr. Tim's One and Only and perhaps a few others. Read the label and do not be mislead by someone saying 'it is just the same'. If it is not labeled Nitrospira do not waste your money. 

Viable options:
~Moving livestock to other tanks.
~Sharing filter media with healthy, cycled tanks. (do not remove more than 25% of the media from any one tank, or else the donor tank can start having similar problems).
~Add more plants, faster growing plants, better light, other fertilizers (no nitrogen) to encourage the plants to remove more of the ammonia, which leaves less to be turned into nitrite. 
~If you can rehome all the livestock, then you could complete a fishless cycle on this tank to regrow the dead bacteria. 

Prevention:
Do any filter operations (cleaning, swapping out old media for new, changing to a new filter) with extreme care to protect the bacteria colonies. 
When in doubt add one of the bottled products containing Nitrospira species of bacteria to boost the population.


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## DMAXNAZ (Sep 30, 2015)

So I assume here is what I should have done after adding the canister..

1. Dosed the tank with prime upon adding the new canister, which I use.
2. Used Tetra Safestart, not API.
3. Left the hob on for a month or so before transferring the media from it into the new canister.

Should this maybe have been the approach Diana??

This morning all of the ramshorns still in the tank were cruising around like normal. Not at the top like Saturday morning. At this point since everything alive I wish to keep has been relocated I'll just let the tank do its thing for the next few weeks. I have new filter media coming tomorrow. Matrix and Substrat pro. I'm going to remove the bio balls that came with it and put as much of these in as possible.

Bump:


thedood said:


> I dont think lack of 02 was the issue. Is it possible a contaminant entered the water like copper? Once those shrimp die I would have expected an ammonia spike? So I guess I would think that copper or something else killed the shrimp then the dead shrimp caused an ammonia spike which then affected the fish. I dont know if this is what happened but maybe it seems logical enough to explore.


I did try a new food Thursday. Hikari sinking wafers. I looked and they should be free of copper. Nothing else was added other than API quick start.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

You can move the established media to the new filter. This will move most of the bacteria. There is not a lot of surface area on the actual box of the old filter, not a lot of bacteria here. Moving the cycled media to the new filter can be done like this:
If it is a cartridge with glued-on floss, cut off the fluff, and put this in the lowest level of the canister. Put the activated carbon or other stuff in a cut-up nylon stocking (they make nice media bags!) If it is loose media like an Aquaclear, sponge, then it is OK to cut up the media (if it needs to be) in whatever way makes it fit the best. Then, as water flows past this fluff it will carry some bacteria into the rest of the filter to colonize the new media. 
Obviously, there is some loss if you are cutting the floss off a cartridge, some floss stays stuck to the plastic frame. 

Using any of the Nitrospira products is good. You can use some of a bottle, and keep the rest in the fridge, and add with each addition of fish as you restock. 

Prime or other dechlor which specifies that it locks up ammonia and nitrite (Prime does this per Seachem, I am not sure if it is on the label, but I think it is. This was a side effect they had not realized, had not aimed for when they created Prime) are good to use in this situation. 
Read the label on the Nitrospira product. Some of these specifically say not to use a dechlor within 24 hours of dosing the Nitrospira. Respect the timing on the labels. 

Test frequently and be ready to do an immediate water change at the first sign of a problem. 

Side note on the trace of ammonia- 
I have seen posts from others, and I have seen my own test results showing a low level of ammonia, under .25ppm, within 24 hours of treating with certain dechlor. Prime is often listed. I have several different dechlorination products on hand, and use a lot of Chloramine Buster, but also use Prime (whichever bottle is closest- I have no favorites among these 2 products). My tap water has chloramine, and will test 1 ppm for chlorine and 1 ppm for ammonia. 
My understanding is that some dechlor will react with some test methods and show ammonia, even if it is locked up. 
The way to get around this is to test more than 24 hours after using dechlor. Ammonia tests then should show a solid zero, no trace of ammonia. Any trace after that 24 hour wait = a problem that needs immediate attention.


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

I like what @Diana said. I'm curious about something because I would have thought the tank would remain stable with the transferred media. Did you wash or rinse the media before putting it in the canister? I'm paying attention here because I have a 10g shrimp tank that I am going to be moving over to a 20. It just has a sponge and powerhead but I plan on replacing the sponge with a different style. I'm sorry to hear you have lost livestock. I found a single dead shrimp in mine sunday and it always makes me feel bad when that happens.


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## DMAXNAZ (Sep 30, 2015)

Diana said:


> You can move the established media to the new filter. This will move most of the bacteria. There is not a lot of surface area on the actual box of the old filter, not a lot of bacteria here. Moving the cycled media to the new filter can be done like this:
> If it is a cartridge with glued-on floss, cut off the fluff, and put this in the lowest level of the canister. Put the activated carbon or other stuff in a cut-up nylon stocking (they make nice media bags!) If it is loose media like an Aquaclear, sponge, then it is OK to cut up the media (if it needs to be) in whatever way makes it fit the best. Then, as water flows past this fluff it will carry some bacteria into the rest of the filter to colonize the new media.
> Obviously, there is some loss if you are cutting the floss off a cartridge, some floss stays stuck to the plastic frame.
> 
> ...


I had an Aquaclear so I removed the bag of Purigen and the mesh bag of bio media and placed in the new canister. I didn't move the sponge though. I also assumed that the sponge filter in the tank have to have had a ton of biological growing in it as an added safety measure.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

I still preach the bacteria transfer method, although I have never tested for levels.
I don't wait for fish to get sick if I know a tank is cycling, I know it has ammonia, and it will need water changes.
If I want to set up a new filter, I place it in an established tank, and give one or two panes of glass a good wipe down.
Now let the filter do its work and collect al that bacteria from the glass for a day or so. With floss type filters you will see the discolouration.

Do not consider this filter fully colonised, but it is going to have miles more bacteria than a virgin filter or I suspect one does with a bottle of bacteria from the shops.


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## DMAXNAZ (Sep 30, 2015)

thedood said:


> I like what @Diana said. I'm curious about something because I would have thought the tank would remain stable with the transferred media. Did you wash or rinse the media before putting it in the canister? I'm paying attention here because I have a 10g shrimp tank that I am going to be moving over to a 20. It just has a sponge and powerhead but I plan on replacing the sponge with a different style. I'm sorry to hear you have lost livestock. I found a single dead shrimp in mine sunday and it always makes me feel bad when that happens.


No rinsing at all. It was a quick transfer too. I opened the canister, added the material, closed it back up, primed the lines and had it back up and running.


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

How long did you have the foam filter in the tank prior to the hob removal? May I ask what the stock list was before the crash?


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## DMAXNAZ (Sep 30, 2015)

thedood said:


> How long did you have the foam filter in the tank prior to the hob removal? May I ask what the stock list was before the crash?


A few weeks on the foam filter. The HOB since day one.

1 - Beta
4 - Sterbai Cory
1 - Nerite
1 - L201 Pleco
20-30 Red Cherry and Fire Shrimp
Too many ramshorns. I remove them constantly.

Beta gets hand fed 5-6 pellets each night
Corys get fed 6 shrimp pellets each night
Not sure what the L201 was eating. I saw him on a shrimp pellet once.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Could it be that adding prime to an established tank could starve some of the existing bacteria?
I use a different product so not familiar with its properties. Many of these products claim to lock up ammonia and nitrates for 48 hours.


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## brandynhart095 (Jul 27, 2015)

Just get a nice strong bubbler, i had my bubbles turned down too much and my fish were gasping at the surface so I turned it up and they got better.


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

I dont know. It seems to me that between the sponge and the canister with seeded media that the tank should have been stable. @Diane do you think a spike caused the shrimp deaths or do you think the spike was a result of the shrimp deaths? Either way as Diane pointed out there was a spike and not enough bio filter to absorb it.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Only a guess:
first I assume you were using the API test kit?
I've NEVER had much luck w/ the Ammonia kit showing zero Ammonia.. always a "tad" green w/ aquarium water..Strips always showed zero..
So to be honest that isn't "the biggest" worry.
Prime will bind it for 24hrs..
BUT the Nitrite test I always found was accurate... sooo
THAT really was your biggest possible problem. You never had enough of the Nitrite-Nitrate bacteria.. 
and messing w/ it was a big part of the problem. It would have been better to run the canister for a good 2 weeks and not remove anything till nitrites were zero..

Now besides the media swap a few things.. Did you check pH? pre and post?
Did you do anything else like clean the gravel???

Cloudy water was most liekly due to a bacterail bloom. Usually caused by a release nutrients from somewhere..


> Heterotrophic bacteria become a problem when their population grows rapidly to feed on high levels of organic materials dissolved in the water column. This sudden heterotrophic bacteria growth is known as a bacterial bloom, causing white cloudy aquarium water. A bacterial bloom consumes large amounts of oxygen from aquarium water, so from the onset of a bacterial bloom make sure the tank gets additional aeration. Also, a bacterial bloom may coincide with rising Ammonia levels, so be sure to routinely check for Ammonia spikes.


In other words a more likely "effect" than a cause.

I'm not ruling out an ammonia spike BUT.. the point is if nitrites go to zero, more than likely ammonia will go to zero..


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## DMAXNAZ (Sep 30, 2015)

I didn't touch anything in the tank. I was checking it out last night when I got home and the glass appears to have a coat of something on it, and the water is still cloudy. My new filter media should be here in a couple days. I'm just going to let the tank do its thing after that. The only other thing I could think of is I have crushed a couple snails here and there figuring my catfish would clean them up. I might clean the glass today to see if that does anything.


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## alcimedes (Dec 7, 2014)

If you were reading ammonia and nitrite, even at small levels, I would guess you tank was at the absolute brink of what it could processes, and then had a bit more on top of that. (or you would have read 0 for nitrites)

My guess?

The sinking wafers were probably just enough to push the bioload over the top.

I've seen that with wafers, they're a pretty dense food, and if they sit in the tank overnight, will start adding to the bioload.

I think your tank was already just a hair beyond capacity, and the wafers were enough to kick things on the downward spiral of a crash. My 2 cents.


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## Dariofan (Aug 4, 2014)

Hi, so sorry to hear about your tank. To me it does sound like you had a problem with your cycle when changing out the filters-that's been well covered by others. Not sure if you know but canister filters can use up oxygen due to bacteria activity/decaying detritus, and do not add oxygen back in the way HOB and sponge do. I think you also had a lack of oxygen due to the filter, it's a very common problem, I would have thought the sponge filter would have covered you, but it seems not enough). Maybe the bacteria in the media you moved over to the canister were also not used to the less oxygen in the canister and some died off as they adjusted causing your tank to start a cycle. In your photo it looks like your spray bar is low in the tank-about half way down-I would move the spray bar up to just below the surface of the water to increase oxygen exchange.


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## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

Did the fish have abnormally red or brown gills? Were they flashing? Were the corys going up for air more often than normal? Were fish faded? Rapid breathing? Did you notice the fish less active and perhaps gasping/breathing hard for hours before dying?

Maybe your tank has never had enough biological filtration, which seems so due to always having traces of ammonia and nitrite. Cycled yes, but not a big enough beneficial bacteria population, maybe due to not enough surface area/biomedia. But that does seem pretty unlikely as autotrophic bacteria should just end up growing other areas to an appropriate colony size. Unless your test kit is just that inaccurate?

Fish's gills can get damaged when exposed to ammonia, and with enough time/exposure, enough gill tissue is damaged that they have a harder time breathing. Nitr*I*tes can cause what is called "brown blood disease", it pretty much causes the blood to carry less oxygen so the fish gets less oxygen/has a harder time breathing.

Do you have anything possibly leaching ammonia? Some ferts/root tabs use ammonia in their formula. Excess organics decaying, being broken down by heterotrophic bacteria into ammonia? Substrate leaching? Highly doubt a couple crushed up snails would cause any issues.

You mentioned not bringing over the HOB sponge, those sponge may actually have a ton or even most of the beneficial bacteria. The HOB being the first established filter may actually have had all or nearly all of the beneficial bacteria, and the sponge filter could of had very little since the HOB already had the job covered (especially if the sponge filter wasn't pulling in much dissolved oxygenated water compared to the HOB).

From the 1st picture your spray bar does look well below the water surface and seems to not agitate the water surface much. Also the bubbles from your sponge filter look very underpowered and doesn't look like it would agitate the surface much either. With the spray bar mounted so low, it is pretty much only circulating water, and the only oxygenating is through mere atmospheric exchange which is not much without surface agitation.

If the water surface has always been that still since you removed the HOB, then it is very possible the inhabitants died due to lack of air (Corys can last longer, but still can suffocate if in low enough o2 levels long enough, and yet older individuals can't tolerate the stress and low o2 levels like younger corys can). The HOB, with it's waterfall effect, pushing dissolved oxygen down within the aquarium.

Fish use up oxygen, so does bacteria and even plants do (especially at night).

So it's either nitrogen poisoning or not enough dissolved oxygen or just the combining stress of the two.
It's not the SafeStart as that would actually help supply the nitrifying bacteria.
I guess there is a _rare_ chance that the canister filter had something toxic contaminated on/in it.
But it sounds like you did the media transfer correctly which should work with no issues, it just seems you were on the breaking point for bioload/nitrogen poisoning and/or oxygen levels. Both seem present so it is very likely the combination of the two.
By the way, the tank cycle wouldn't be fully crashed, it's still salvageable. Although it might still be best to remove inhabitants and do the fishless cycle (need to provide ammonia as food source for beneficial bacteria) until it's fully cycled (which shouldn't take long at all since it's already working most of the way and you just added safestart. Just make sure to use enough biomedia and oxygenate enough 

Just curious, what's your pH?



And to the above post, @Dariofan, aerobic bacteria would use up oxygen regardless of the filter. Canister filters do/can (if outlet positioned correctly) add dissolved oxygen in the same exact manner as sponge filters and HOB's do, it's all surface agitation, just looks a bit different (except Biowheels). But yes, it does seem the OP mounted their spray bar too low and not angled correctly. 



@Nordic
regarding Prime, it binds up ammonia, nitrite and nitrates into a non-toxic form for up to 24-48 hours, but still leaves it in a form that is usable to plants and beneficial bacteria. After the 24-48 hour period, the nitrogen becomes free again and is no longer detoxified (if the nitrogen is still present and has not been used up by plants/bacteria).
Prime questions... - Page 2 - Seachem Support Forums
Post #12 goes more into detail of how Prime works.
Not sure if Kordon AmQuel Plus works the same way or not, but does have similar features.


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## DMAXNAZ (Sep 30, 2015)

Water;ife,

I didn't notice anything different on the fish. They were at the top breathing hard.
I use the API test kit as well as the Tetra strips. 
I have nothing else leaching in the tank I am aware of.
The spray bar is so low because that is the highest it can go. The bend in the outlet tube is resting on the rim of the tank. I could pull it up, but then the bend in the tube would be sitting quite higher than the rim of the tank.
I removed the hob on wednesday, and the tank crashed sometime between 8pm Friday and 6am Saturday.
I did have the spray bar shooting at a 90* angle. I have since angled it at 45* pointing towards the surface.
I did have the sponge filter air supply turned down low from day one. I have since cranked it up for 100% more flow. There is some serious surface agitation now.
For my PH. The strips always say 7.6-7.8 and the API kit says 8.2.

Is there a kit I can buy that will relocate my spray bar closer to the surface? If I could find a piece of tube and two more 90* I could loop it back up....


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## yakal (Sep 4, 2015)

Im just curious as to when is your day 1? I mean i just want to know when you started the tank because i was thinking you may not have enough bacteria in there even before transferring your media to the canister filter because you are reading ammonia and nitrite.. Just a guess


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## DMAXNAZ (Sep 30, 2015)

yakal said:


> im just curious as to when is your day 1? I mean i just want to know when you started the tank because i was thinking you may not have enough bacteria in there even before transferring your media to the canister filter because you are reading ammonia and nitrite.. Just a guess


10/15/15

Bump: Tank is still cloudy. Here are my parameters last night. PH 7.4, Ammonia .25, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 160. My new media comes today. I'm going to remove all of the media that came with the canister and add all good stuff.


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## touch of sky (Nov 1, 2011)

WaterLife said:


> Fish's gills can get damaged when exposed to ammonia, and with enough time/exposure, enough gill tissue is damaged that they have a harder time breathing. Nitrates can cause what is called "brown blood disease", it pretty much causes the blood to carry less oxygen so the fish gets less oxygen/has a harder time breathing.


Brown blood disease is caused by nitrites, not nitrates ... probably a typo on the poster's part, but thought it should be corrected.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

If you remove all the media from the filter and add brand new media,you will most certainly lose a good portion of bacteria that presently resides on the old media.
I would wait until the tank stabilized and remove a portion of old media and replace with new media and then at next filter cleaning,remove some more old media and replace with new media .
Will assume there are basket's that hold the media or foam pad's that you can replace in increment's rather than total swap out which will in all likelihood result in bacteria bloom =cloudy water . (possible ammonia spike)
Would leave substrate alone for next month or two.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

With NO3 at 160 and the other 2 low to zero it sounds like the bacteria have recovered. I agree that some dechlor seems to make certain ammonia tests read about .25ppm, and this might be what you are seeing. Do water changes to start getting the NO3 down. I would suggest 25% twice a week, see if that puts a dent in it. If that is not enough then do more frequent water changes or larger water changes, as long as the parameters (GH, KH, pH) of the new water match the tank water. With each water change do some minor tank cleaning, but do not jump in and do too much at any one time. Example: one day you clean half the substrate. Another day you clean the inside of the glass, (making sure to vacuum out the bits that you scrape off), another day you clean the filter in the water you remove from the tank, another day you clean the other half of the substrate... 

Do not simply remove the old filter media, you have just re-seeded with the beneficial bacteria. Do it in a way that conserves the bacteria, or else add new bacteria to more than replace the bacteria you are removing. 
Here are a few ways to do this:

Method 1) 
Do a really big water change.
Remove the old media.
Put the new media in the filter.
Add more TSS.
Put the old media in the tank. Large things like sponges can be turned loose. Smaller things like ceramic bio media can be placed in mesh bags and hung on the side of the tank in several locations. Make sure there are at least half a dozen things. 
Remove one item- a sponge, a mesh bag... once a week. This should take 6 weeks or more. This slow removal of the bacteria plus the boost from the TSS ought to ease the transition. 

Method 2)
Put the new media in a large bucket with a big bubbler or use the HOB filter (these fit pretty well on straight sided storage containers) and do the fishless cycle. (You can jump start the cycle with TSS). The new media can drift free in the container, but there should be enough water movement that you can see it moving around. These bacteria use a lot of oxygen. They also have a few other preferred conditions so they will grow as fast as possible (See fishless cycle below). 
When it can remove 5 ppm ammonia overnight, and no nitrite show up, it has a really big bacteria population, and can be moved over to the aquarium. (yes, 5ppm is more than the normal fishless cycle- you want to be sure the media has the biggest possible bacteria population)

Method 3) As suggested by roadmaster. Each week remove _less than_ 25% of the old media, and replace it with new media. Good idea to add TSS each time you do this. It may take a couple of months to get it switched over. Let it take time. 

Through all of this, keep on top of the testing, and be ready to do a big water change (or 2 in a row) at any time. Fast action can prevent a problem from spiraling out of control. I would keep a bottle of TSS on hand (It can be kept in the fridge after it is opened) so you can add it right away, at the first sign of a problem. 

Do not move the fish somewhere else, you would just have the problem of keeping 'somewhere else' cycled. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is the fishless cycle. Whether you use it in this case or not, there is a lot of information in here about the optimum conditions for the beneficial bacteria. If something in the aquarium was making the growing conditions hard on the bacteria it can crash pretty fast. 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cycle: To grow the beneficial bacteria that remove ammonia and nitrite from the aquarium.

Fish-In Cycle: To expose fish to toxins while using them as the source of ammonia to grow nitrogen cycle bacteria. Exposure to ammonia burns the gills and other soft tissue, stresses the fish and lowers their immunity. Exposure to nitrite makes the blood unable to carry oxygen. Research methemglobinemia for details. 

Fishless Cycle: The safe way to grow more bacteria, faster, in an aquarium, pond or riparium. 

The method I give here was developed by 2 scientists who wanted to quickly grow enough bacteria to fully stock a tank all at one time, with no plants helping, and overstock it as is common with Rift Lake Cichlid tanks. 

1a) Set up the tank and all the equipment. You can plant if you want. Include the proper dose of dechlorinator with the water. 
Optimum water chemistry:
GH and KH above 3 German degrees of hardness. A lot harder is just fine. 
pH above 7, and into the mid 8s is just fine. (7.5-8 seems to be optimum)
Temperature in the upper 70s F (mid 20s C) is good. Higher (to 95*F or about 35*C) is OK if the water is well aerated. 
A trace of other minerals may help. Usually this comes in with the water, but if you have a pinch of KH2PO4, and trace elements like CSM+B that may be helpful. 
High oxygen level. Make sure the filter and power heads are running well. Plenty of water circulation. 
No toxins in the tank. If you washed the tank, or any part of the system with any sort of cleanser, soap, detergent, bleach or anything else make sure it is well rinsed. Do not put your hands in the tank when you are wearing any sort of cosmetics, perfume or hand lotion. No fish medicines of any sort. 
A trace of salt (sodium chloride) is OK, but not required. 
This method of growing bacteria will work in a marine system, too. The species of bacteria are different. 

1b) Optional: Add any source of the bacteria that you are growing to seed the tank. Cycled media from a healthy tank is good. Decor or some gravel from a cycled tank is OK. Live plants or plastic are OK. I have even heard of the right bacteria growing in the bio film found on driftwood. (So if you have been soaking some driftwood in preparation to adding it to the tank, go ahead and put it into the tank) Bottled bacteria is great, but only if it contains Nitrospira species of bacteria. Read the label and do not waste your money on anything else. 
At the time this was written the right species could be found in: 
Dr. Tims One and Only
Tetra Safe Start
Microbe Lift Nite Out II
...and perhaps others. 
You do not have to jump start the cycle. The right species of bacteria are all around, and will find the tank pretty fast. 

2) Add ammonia until the test reads 5 ppm. This ammonia is the cheapest you can find. No surfactants, no perfumes. Read the fine print. This is often found at discount stores like Dollar Tree, or hardware stores like Ace. You could also use a dead shrimp form the grocery store, or fish food. Protein breaks down to become ammonia. You do not have good control over the ammonia level, though. 
Some substrates release ammonia when they are submerged for the first time. Monitor the level and do enough water changes to keep the ammonia at the levels detailed below. 

3) Test daily. For the first few days not much will happen, but the bacteria that remove ammonia are getting started. Finally the ammonia starts to drop. Add a little more, once a day, to test 5 ppm. 

4) Test for nitrite. A day or so after the ammonia starts to drop the nitrite will show up. When it does allow the ammonia to drop to 3 ppm. 

5) Test daily. Add ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. If the nitrite or ammonia go to 5 ppm do a water change to get these lower. The ammonia removing species and the nitrite removing species (Nitrospira) do not do well when the ammonia or nitrite are over 5 ppm. 

6) When the ammonia and nitrite both hit zero 24 hours after you have added the ammonia the cycle is done. You can challenge the bacteria by adding a bit more than 3 ppm ammonia, and it should be able to handle that, too, within 24 hours. 

7) Now test the nitrate. Probably sky high! 
Do as big a water change as needed to lower the nitrate until it is safe for fish. Certainly well under 20, and a lot lower is better. This may call for more than one water change, and up to 100% water change is not a problem. Remember the dechlor!
If you will be stocking right away (within 24 hours) no need to add more ammonia. If stocking will be delayed keep feeding the bacteria by adding ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. You will need to do another water change right before adding the fish.
__________________________

Helpful hints:

A) You can run a fishless cycle in a bucket to grow bacteria on almost any filter media like bio balls, sponges, ceramic bio noodles, lava rock or Matala mats. Simply set up any sort of water circulation such as a fountain pump or air bubbler and add the media to the bucket. Follow the directions for the fishless cycle. When the cycle is done add the media to the filter. I have run a canister filter in a bucket and done the fishless cycle.

B) The nitrogen cycle bacteria will live under a wide range of conditions and bounce back from minor set backs. By following the set up suggestions in part 1a) you are setting up optimum conditions for fastest reproduction and growth.
GH and KH can be as low as 1 degree, but watch it! These bacteria may use the carbon in carbonates, and if it is all used up (KH = 0) the bacteria may die off. They use the carbon from CO2, and this is generally pretty low in water, but can be replenished from the air and from carbonates. Keep the carbonates up to keep the pH up, too. 
pH as low as 6.5 is OK, but by 6.0 the bacteria are not going to be doing very well. They are still there, and will recover pretty well when conditions get better. To grow them at optimum rates, keep the pH on the alkaline side of neutral. 
Temperature almost to freezing is OK, but they must not freeze, and they are not very active at all. They do survive in a pond, but they are slow to warm up and get going in the spring. This is where you might need to grow some in a bucket in a warm place and supplement the pond population. Too warm is not good, either. Tropical or room temperature tank temperatures are best. (68 to 85*F or 20 to 28*C)
Moderate oxygen can be tolerated for a while. However, to remove lots of ammonia and nitrite these bacteria must have oxygen. They turn one into the other by adding oxygen. If you must stop running the filter for an hour or so, no problem. If longer, remove the media and keep it where it will get more oxygen. 
Once the bacteria are established they can tolerate some fish medicines. This is because they live in a complex film called Bio film on all the surfaces in the filter and the tank. Medicines do not enter the bio film well. 
These bacteria do not need to live under water. They do just fine in a humid location. They live in healthy garden soil, as well as wet locations. 

C) Planted tanks may not tolerate 3 ppm or 5 ppm ammonia. It is possible to cycle the tank at lower levels of ammonia so the plants do not get ammonia burn. Add ammonia to only 1 ppm, but test twice a day, and add ammonia as needed to keep it at 1 ppm. The plants are also part of the bio filter, and you may be able to add the fish sooner, if the plants are thriving. 1 ppm twice a day will grow almost as much bacteria as 3 ppm once a day.


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## DMAXNAZ (Sep 30, 2015)

I guess I should have said all media. I was just going to remove the bio balls and ceramic rings that came with the canister. I will leave in 1 1/2 baskets of foam and floss and the bio media from the hob filter that I added a week ago.


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## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

touch of sky said:


> Brown blood disease is caused by nitrites, not nitrates ... probably a typo on the poster's part, but thought it should be corrected.


Yeah I meant nitrItes (NO2), not nitrAtes (NO3). Thanks for pointing that out typo! I corrected it now


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## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

DMAXNAZ, sorry for not checking back sooner. I usually never come back to threads unless I get a notification or see them pop back up in the New Posts section. All other forums I go on always notify you in some way (in a separate page list with new replies at the top of the list in bold if the new posts haven't been read yet) if there is any new reply to a thread (even if the reply isn't directed to you and even if it isn't your own thread). This is the only thread I've seen that doesn't do that, and for me, checking back on my old posts to see if anyone made a new comment is a bit of a hassle for me. Does this forum indeed do what I described (without needing to subscribe to threads), but I just haven't allowed/checked that option when registering (don't want email notifications)?

Well anyways, I need to refresh my memory on this thread.

So, the tank that "crashed" is still running with the canister filter and sponge filter with no fish (just snails), correct?

From the sounds of it, it does seem like low oxygen levels and some toxicity of ammonia/nitrite/nitrate were both to blame.

Sounds like you should have the oxygen taken care of now. You don't really need to have 100% air flow to the sponge if you don't want to. Just make sure you have enough surface agitation overall, which doesn't really need all that much. You can sort of gauge by how your fish do with the given oxygen levels. For the canister outlet height, I have SunSun canister filters and the outlet does dip down into the tank too far for me if I want the outlet closer to the water surface/top of the tank. I have left my green tubing the full length for now (will cut once I add on a co2 reactor), so the tubing is fairly heavy that the suction cups don't hold position very well and the outlet dips back down, so what I have done is use an empty water bottle with it's lid, just place it under the U bend of the black piping, on top of the tank, and just crush the water bottle filled with air until you get the desired height of where you want the spray bar. Not the prettiest thing, but it works and is adjustable haha. So yes, the black U bend will end up sticking up above the tank. I guess you could buy the appropriate fitting if you wanted to go that approach (it might reduce flow slightly). Or you could cut some of the piping to shorten it (but you gotta figure how to connect the piping then).

I must have missed the part of there being cloudy water (in the pic the water looks pretty clear). White cloudy water can be a bacterial bloom of Heterotrophic bacteria (common for New Tank Syndrome/not fully cycled tanks). The Heterotrophic bacteria feed on organic matter and break that down to ammonia, so usually ammonia spikes are present if you have cloudy water. They do use up oxygen as well. Heterotrophic bacteria are always present, even in established tanks, just not in a big enough population to really see/no cloudy water. When there is a excess of organic matter (uneaten fish food, detritus, etc) is when the Heterotrophic bacteria population can bloom to an amount so big they make the water look cloudy. The cloud/bacterial population will subside when the large amounts of organic matter have been reduced (broken down with time or physically removed). So to clear it faster, you can vacuum out excess organics, clean your mechanical media, etc. to remove the bacteria's food (organic matter). Well that is if the cloud is a bacterial bloom, as there are other reasons for cloudy water.

I haven't use SafeStart yet, but I recall some saying it would cloud (white or pink cloud?) the water, which should just be the bacteria free floating around until they can settle/attach to place (which is why it's recommended to add directly to the filter/media). Hmm, just was pondering, I don't know if this is possible, but what if the SafeStart bottle wasn't stored properly and all the bacteria died, and pretty much just became pollutants that you would be adding to the water, not sure if that would cause ammonia issues. Again, I am not sure if that is even possible. Maybe you could test it by getting a glass of water, add some safestart and test the water.

For the constant ammonia issue, the bacterial bloom _may_ be a cause. Or maybe something else is leaching ammonia (ferts, substrate). Or maybe your beneficial bacteria colony isn't sufficient for your bioload (not enough biomedia/surface area?). Or maybe the turn over rate isn't high enough to filter the water fast enough to keep the Nitrogen levels down (How many gallon tank and what canister filter and HOB were you using?).

If the beneficial bacteria are still converting ammonia down to nitrite down to nitrate, the tank hasn't fully crashed, it might just not be "well established" enough to fully stock the tank. But the Safe Start should help things along.

Again, that sponge from the HOB could of very well had a good amount of beneficial bacteria.

The majority of our beneficial bacteria function best with a pH closer to 7.2, the further away from that, the less efficiently they function, and too far they pretty much don't perform at all (not entirely sure if they die off). 7.4-7.8 is fine. 8.2 is a bit far, but still should perform decently. Ammonia toxicity is also pH dependent (in your case, it's more ammonia rather than the less toxic ammonium). Bacteria performance is also temperature dependent as well (the colder the less efficient at nitrifying, but typical aquarium temps are fine). And yes, nitrifying bacteria do need oxygen to oxidize ammonia/nitrite (low o2, less efficient).

But yeah, you are on the right path. Oxygen taken care of and the beneficial bacteria/media is coming along, after that you should be good to go!

By the way, that bronze colored crypt in the middle of the tank is a nice touch 


EDIT: Oh I see you say SafeStart sometimes and Quick Start, there is Tetra SafeStart which I know has the correct bacteria. I am not sure what bacteria API Quick Start contains so I can't comment if it is effective or not. Many other bacteria products contain land/soil-based nitrifying bacteria which don't do very well in aquariums. The bacteria you want are Nitrsomonas (oxidize ammonia) and Nitrospira (oxidize nitrite) -these nitrifying bacteria are largely found in aquatic environments, which Tetra SafeStart and Dr. Tim's One and Only, contain.


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## DMAXNAZ (Sep 30, 2015)

Thanks Waterlife! I really appreciate everyone's feedback. My order of Substrat and Matrix arrived yesterday. I filled one up basket with Substrat and the other with Matrix. I still had room for a filter pad in each basket as well as my Purigen and biomax from my original hob. I also did a huge water change, and this morning the tank looks the best it has in days. I'll check parameters again tonight.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

DMAXNAZ said:


> So I assume here is what I should have done after adding the canister..
> 
> 1. Dosed the tank with prime upon adding the new canister, which I use.
> 2. Used Tetra Safestart, not API.
> 3. Left the hob on for a month or so before transferring the media from it into the new canister.


Did you was the canister? It could had some chemical which shrimp are sensitive to. Looks like the spray bar should be up higher 3in.


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## DMAXNAZ (Sep 30, 2015)

I think two things happened. First, I should have turned up the air on my shrimp filter before removing the hob. I think lack of oxygen was maybe the issue. Second, I should have spent the $20 on Tetra Safe Start when adding the new canister. I have used that product in the past with no issues.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

DMAXNAZ said:


> I should have spent the $20 on Tetra Safe Start.


It about $10 on amazon.


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## DMAXNAZ (Sep 30, 2015)

Tank parameters are back to normal after a week. I threw by buggard danios in it to see how it goes. Within one day of adding my danios to another tank I already had one ghost shrimp die, and I found my amano shrimp in the sink to it last night. Mt amano in that tank was always out on the wood just hanging out until they were added. I guess he decided to crawl right out.


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## DMAXNAZ (Sep 30, 2015)

I ordered parts and moved the spray bar up. It's about 1/2" below the water line now. I also moved it to the side of the tank.


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## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

That's more like it! The filter outlet and intake positioning is personal choice, but also wise to factor in circulation (wouldn't make a ton of difference either way in that tank).

So you finally getting 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and X nitrate? Or still a bit of ammonia and nitrite?
Just trying to double check to help prevent issues from reoccurring.


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## DMAXNAZ (Sep 30, 2015)

My test kits vary for ammonia. Either zero or .25. Nitrite zero. Nitrates 20ppm. These are the same old parameters for this tank.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Looking so peaceful, I could stare at that for hours, and the fish is just the perfect scale.

My wife and I both agree we like the light thrown by ripples on the water surface to just flat light.
I can imagine how sweet the light moving through the tank would be.


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## DMAXNAZ (Sep 30, 2015)

Nordic said:


> Looking so peaceful, I could stare at that for hours, and the fish is just the perfect scale.
> 
> My wife and I both agree we like the light thrown by ripples on the water surface to just flat light.
> I can imagine how sweet the light moving through the tank would be.


It's at the end of both of my couches. I can lay on one couch and stare into the front, or the other couch and stare into the side. Pretty cool.


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