# hate this algae..can't find the name



## flowerfishs (May 6, 2009)

anyone know what is this algae? what cause it? how to treat it? 
I can't find any information on it.


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

Staghorn?


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Definitely staghorn. Close relative of BBA.

Treat exactly the same. Increase CO2 (if applicable) and flow. Decrease light. May actually be caused by strong flow as well.

H2O2 or Excel spot treatments, and Excel whole tank overdosing normally kill it. But not mine (see my sig). I developed the "One-Two Punch" treatment especially for it. Try everything else first though.


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## flowerfishs (May 6, 2009)

I think it's staghorn. I have strong flow on my tank.


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## jester56 (Oct 28, 2012)

DarkCobra's One-Two Punch took care of my BBA problem better than anything else. Check that one out!!


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## flowerfishs (May 6, 2009)

jester56 said:


> DarkCobra's One-Two Punch took care of my BBA problem better than anything else. Check that one out!!


 
Thanks! I will try the excel first.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

If you spot treat during a water change, and then wait say 5 min, then refill, this will toast most any BBA or Compsopogon(Staghorn). 

You likely have a CO2 issue(not enough).


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## AlanLe (Jan 10, 2013)

DarkCobra said:


> Definitely staghorn. Close relative of BBA.
> 
> Treat exactly the same. Increase CO2 (if applicable) and flow. Decrease light. May actually be caused by strong flow as well.
> 
> H2O2 or Excel spot treatments, and Excel whole tank overdosing normally kill it. But not mine (see my sig). I developed the "One-Two Punch" treatment especially for it. Try everything else first though.


Thanks brother! Your "1 2 punch" treatment works. It took out all of the green algae on the leaves, substrate and the glass.


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## foster (Sep 23, 2012)

jester56 said:


> DarkCobra's One-Two Punch took care of my BBA problem better than anything else. Check that one out!!


What does the one two punch consist of? I have some staghorn issues also.


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## bat_billy (Jun 2, 2011)

DarkCobra said:


> Definitely staghorn. Close relative of BBA.
> 
> Treat exactly the same. Increase CO2 (if applicable) and flow. Decrease light. May actually be caused by strong flow as well.
> 
> H2O2 or Excel spot treatments, and Excel whole tank overdosing normally kill it. But not mine (see my sig). I developed the "One-Two Punch" treatment especially for it. Try everything else first though.


Why would strong flow cause this type of algae? That seem counter intuitive to everything I have read.


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## jester56 (Oct 28, 2012)

foster said:


> What does the one two punch consist of? I have some staghorn issues also.


Here's the thread link...

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=203684


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## bababooey (Nov 9, 2011)

bat_billy said:


> Why would strong flow cause this type of algae? That seem counter intuitive to everything I have read.


Yes, I'm curious about this as well...


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

its not co2 related IMO, it has something to do with the Ca and Mg, is your Ca level very low? or dosing too much Mg?


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

bat_billy said:


> Why would strong flow cause this type of algae? That seem counter intuitive to everything I have read.


For the same reason BBA loves to grow on filter outflows. Especially if that outflow is the source of diffused CO2. Yes, it's 100% counter intuitive. And I can't explain why it happens, nor can anybody else. But it does happen.



happi said:


> its not co2 related IMO, it has something to do with the Ca and Mg, is your Ca level very low? or dosing too much Mg?


That is the explanation offered by the MCI algae diagnostic guide. Though I don't use MCI, I'd always found it interesting how specific the diagnostic portion is. This nutrient=this algae. I'd never had a problem with staghorn before, and I'd recently changed Ca/Mg levels. So reverting my Ca/Mg dosage what it was previously was the very first thing I tried.

It had no effect, at least in my case. Neither did adjusting ratios/levels according to MCI. Or any other combination of changes. And I have almost total control over those two nutrients since my tapwater has a GH of only one.

From there I went on to try increases and reductions of _every_ nutrient. Three months of tests, not a single improvement in the staghorn. From there I went on to look at light, CO2, and flow, and that's when I started understanding this algae.

Unhealthy leaves=staghorn
Too much light with too little flow and/or CO2=staghorn
Too much flow and/or CO2=staghorn
Too much light, flow, and CO2=LOTS OF STAGHORN


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

DarkCobra said:


> For the same reason BBA loves to grow on filter outflows. Especially if that outflow is the source of diffused CO2. Yes, it's 100% counter intuitive. And I can't explain why it happens, nor can anybody else. But it does happen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



in those cases we will see staghorn algae in all tanks, if Mg and Ca is not the cause then what causes it? it seems to spread no matter whatever changes i make, i did notice that it seems to spread more when Ca is way less than Mg. am still testing it and i cannot be 100% certain if this relate to Mg and Ca.

i am testing many algae in my tanks to find out what really causes them. i will soon report on my research.

am not sure how much truth there is to this:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/algae/69737-method-controlled-imbalances-summary.html


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## bababooey (Nov 9, 2011)

DarkCobra said:


> Unhealthy leaves=staghorn
> Too much light with too little flow and/or CO2=staghorn
> Too much flow and/or CO2=staghorn
> Too much light, flow, and CO2=LOTS OF STAGHORN


So you need healthy leaves, just the right amount of light, just the right amount of flow, and just the right amount of co2. :eek5:

While I can understand how unhealthy leaves, too much light, and even too much flow could cause staghorn.....you can also get staghorn from 'too much' co2??


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

bababooey said:


> So you need healthy leaves, just the right amount of light, just the right amount of flow, and just the right amount of co2. :eek5:
> 
> While I can understand how unhealthy leaves, too much light, and even too much flow could cause staghorn.....you can also get staghorn from 'too much' co2??


i can understand cutting the leaves will work fine, but how about when you have this algae on rocks, wood, spray bar etc, do we cut them too? :hihi:


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

happi said:


> in those cases we will see staghorn algae in all tanks


It is not an algae that exists in all aquariums, and is always ready to make an appearance, like GSA. I never saw it at all in many years of keeping planted tanks, no matter the parameters, or how well or poorly they were set up.

Then I got a new plant. I saw algae on it, which I didn't find out until later was staghorn. So I dipped the plant. Then I put that plant in my most stable tank, in which all algae magically withered away; confident that anything the dip didn't kill would also suffer the same fate. I was wrong.

So no, we would not expect to see staghorn in all tanks.



happi said:


> if Mg and Ca is not the cause then what causes it?


Already posted my explanation of cause. And if staghorn isn't present, then the same conditions that support staghorn growth, if just a little more favorable, produce BBA instead. Which is much more common, present and ready to strike in all tanks.

Since staghorn can be completely absent, I think it may be possible to achieve _total extinction_ of it as well; so that it can never reappear unless reintroduced. I periodically push conditions into favorable areas to see how well it's working. And though I haven't yet achieved extinction, I'm making some progress - these pushes now generate more BBA than staghorn. Strange as it may sound, I prefer BBA!



happi said:


> it seems to spread no matter whatever changes i make


Heh. I know that feeling well.



happi said:


> i did notice that it seems to spread more when Ca is way less than Mg. am still testing it and i cannot be 100% certain if this relate to Mg and Ca.


But when Ca is way less than Mg, that's not good for the plants. And so this fulfills one of the conditions I've stated encourages staghorn growth. Eliminating this condition will only slow it if any of the other conditions still exist.



happi said:


> i am testing many algae in my tanks to find out what really causes them. i will soon report on my research.


All tests welcome. Shoot me a PM linking to your thread when you report, I'd love to see what you've found.



happi said:


> am not sure how much truth there is to this:
> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/algae/69737-method-controlled-imbalances-summary.html


Ack, I typed PPS in my previous post. I really meant MCI. That's what I followed, and no help.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

BBA grows on filter outlets for the same reason it grows on driftwood, slow growing plants and other objects because of a buildup of organics. Many times these objects are closer to a light source as well. Even on filter returns, organic deposits build up in the pores of the plastic, glass, etc and becomes a hotbed for BBA. The fact that the filter tube is in a high-flow area is pretty much incidental.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

*Darkcobra*

what if you have both Staghorn and black brush algae?? sorry if i did not understand your last post


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

houseofcards said:


> BBA grows on filter outlets for the same reason it grows on driftwood, slow growing plants and other objects because of a buildup of organics. Many times these objects are closer to a light source as well. Even on filter returns, organic deposits build up in the pores of the plastic, glass, etc and becomes a hotbed for BBA. The fact that the filter tube is in a high-flow area is pretty much incidental.


Organics may be a factor, I won't rule that out.

But it will also grow happily on a powerhead, which isn't a huge reservoir of organics like a filter. And plants exposed to direct flow from that powerhead. While other plants exposed to the same light intensity, but not direct flow, remain BBA/staghorn free. If plants are at the same lighting and the same flow, it makes virtually no difference whether the flow is from a powerhead or filter.

In the last thread we participated in, you make it clear you do not use powerheads; as you find them too ugly, and consider generally accepted flow guidelines excessive as well. So it's not surprising your observations wouldn't include these factors.


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

happi said:


> what if you have both Staghorn and black brush algae?? sorry if i did not understand your last post


They are not 100% mutually exclusive. But once one gets established on a particular leaf or area of the tank, it does seem to exclude the other, at least at that exact spot. Doesn't mean you can't have both in different areas.

I interpret the shift from staghorn to BBA, when I push the parameters, to mean that there is less staghorn in the form of spores or whatnot; so the BBA establishes itself first.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

DarkCobra said:


> They are not 100% mutually exclusive. But once one gets established on a particular leaf or area of the tank, it does seem to exclude the other, at least at that exact spot. Doesn't mean you can't have both in different areas.
> 
> I interpret the shift from staghorn to BBA, when I push the parameters, to mean that there is less staghorn in the form of spores or whatnot; so the BBA establishes itself first.


i have both and its mostly on where the flow hits, its not on any of the plants. to be honest it was there even when i was using GH booster and EI dosing, high co2 doesn't help either. 

so 4:1 Ca Mg ratio did not help it, am trying the 1:4 Mg Ca ratio and we will see how it goes, i use 100% RO/Di water and use gram scale, so i should be very accurate at my dosing. 

looking at the MCI method, he does seem to have nice looking tanks with no algae.


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

bababooey said:


> While I can understand how unhealthy leaves, too much light, and even too much flow could cause staghorn.....you can also get staghorn from 'too much' co2??


It seems weird, I know. But algae needs CO2 too, right?

If you think about it, it would be weirder for CO2 to suddenly transition from a needed nutrient, to an algaecide, at a particular level. And that level being different in each tank. Take a tank that needs 30ppm CO2 to keep algae away. Reduce the light a bit, and it may need only 15ppm to do the same, because that's all the plants need. Nothing magic about 30ppm at all.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

DarkCobra said:


> Organics may be a factor, I won't rule that out.
> 
> *But it will also grow happily on a powerhead, which isn't a huge reservoir of organics like a filter.* And plants exposed to direct flow from that powerhead. While other plants exposed to the same light intensity, but not direct flow, remain BBA/staghorn free. If plants are at the same lighting and the same flow, it makes virtually no difference whether the flow is from a powerhead or filter.


Either you misunderstood or you really don't have a grasp here. There is plenty of organic build-up on a powerhead. Any pores in the plastic will house organics not to mention the stuff that get's stuck in the powerhead. IMO that is what's happening on the filter return as well as the powehead where water and other water column organics are sucked in. Have you ever removed a powerhead from a tank after it's been in there a while. It's usually covered. 



DarkCobra said:


> In the last thread we participated in, you make it clear you do not use powerheads; as you find them too ugly, and consider generally accepted flow guidelines excessive as well. So it's not surprising your observations wouldn't include these factors.


I don't use powerheads since they aren't necessary in 99% of tanks that as I stated are rectangles and are usually between 2 and 4 ft. Most filters work fine in terms of flow. I don't think anyone would find them attractive. If it's a must it's a must, but that is definitely not the case here so why have another piece of equipment and cord coming from your setup. 

In that other thread you made a statement that reef and fish-only tanks don't use powerheads since they rely only on mechanical and chemical filtration and they must use filters only. If that is what you believe than you are very much misinformed, since the powerhead is used all the time in those types of setups to move waste into the filters. Do you even have any experience with reefs and large fish-only setups? Doesn't seem like you do. 

Stlll trying to figure out the ADA reference you made to me (since you never replied), which was completely off-base since anyone can look at my pics and see the many different suppliers products I use, but now that you mentioned it. ADA is certainly a predominant company in planted aquaria, publishes books, guides, training, sells every product connected with maintaining a planted tank, etc, etc, but when you look through their catalog, guess what, no powerheads, and the filters their using appear to be 2-3x flow out of the box. Why is that?


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

houseofcards said:


> Either you misunderstood or you really don't have a grasp here. There is plenty of organic build-up on a powerhead. Any pores in the plastic will house organics not to mention the stuff that get's stuck in the powerhead. IMO that is what's happening on the filter return as well as the powehead where water and other water column organics are sucked in. Have you ever removed a powerhead from a tank after it's been in there a while. It's usually covered.


Plastic is not that porous. Even if it were, you're speaking as if the capability to hold and release organics is identical for both a filter which contains enormous surface area in the form of filter media, and a small plastic powerhead. This is simply beyond any comparison.

You're right that a neglected powerhead can still get rather dirty, but as part of my personal maintenance regimen I pick debris off if present, every couple of days, to avoid losing flow - since only a single large leaf can significantly restrict it, and it's easier to reach than my filter intakes. Plus I usually spritz with H2O2 during weekly water changes, when they're no longer submersed. Especially on the open Koralia-style which I favor, this keeps them nice and clean. So that's not a factor in my observations, either.



houseofcards said:


> I don't use powerheads since they aren't necessary in 99% of tanks that as I stated are rectangles and are usually between 2 and 4 ft.


This is the only reason I mentioned that other thread at all. Because you're disputing something here, that by your own statements, you have little experience with due to your personal tank style. That, at least, is relevant.

Beyond that, I have no desire to carry old and irrelevant debates over to a new thread, as the rest of your post attempts to do. I stopped replying because you persisted in being insulting and combative, despite my attempts to remain civil. Just as you're again doing in making statements like "you really don't have a grasp here". Or repeatedly challenging my experience and misquoting me on random things like reefkeeping, which were never relevant in _any_ thread. None of that has any place here. If you cannot express a difference of opinion without making it personal, then remain silent, as I won't tolerate it further.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

DarkCobra said:


> Plastic is not that porous. Even if it were, you're speaking as if the capability to hold and release organics is identical for both a filter which contains enormous surface area in the form of filter media, and a small plastic powerhead. This is simply beyond any comparison.
> 
> You're right that a neglected powerhead can still get rather dirty, but as part of my personal maintenance regimen I pick debris off if present, every couple of days, to avoid losing flow - since only a single large leaf can significantly restrict it, and it's easier to reach than my filter intakes. Plus I usually spritz with H2O2 during weekly water changes, when they're no longer submersed. Especially on the open Koralia-style which I favor, this keeps them nice and clean. So that's not a factor in my observations, either.
> 
> ...


Please go through your post and see who has been insulting. You simply can't admit that you are incorrect or understand another point of view, even when 'real evidence' is right there. You've stated things like 'overhead my head' and 'marketing for ADA' when you have no valid reply. If any MOD is reading this please go through the post (I know you have better things to do) and see who is insulting to who. I'm only replying to what seems like your arrogant attitude.

Look at the statement you just made that I bolded. There is simply no truth to that and you can look at my pictures and see my different setups. I use a tiny fraction of ADA products. How can I not have experience if I'm running tanks now without powerheads and immense flow. I've used powerheads when I first started and deemed them an unnecessary piece of equipment. That is straight from experience.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Come on - keep it friendly. You don't have to like everyone but you have to treat them with respect.

If this continues, temporary suspensions are coming. 

Unfortunately have to close this thread.


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