# Water changes for a 3g Walstad tank?



## Coastlife247 (Dec 6, 2013)

3 gallon vase with a 65 w clamp light on 8 hrs a day. It's only been set up 5 days but I'm trying to figure out how often I should do a water change and how large a WC until tank is established?

Stocking:
betta
nerite snail. 

Plants:
Java fern
Java moss
Anacharis
Brazilian sword
Horn wort


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

I'd get a test kit to help you figure out how much/often to change by how high ammonia/nitrate is as its cycling. Remember to bring the new water to same temp as that in the tank (if it comes out of the tap freezing let it sit over night in a warm part of the house) especially if you don't have a heater in there.


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## Coastlife247 (Dec 6, 2013)

AquaAurora said:


> I'd get a test kit to help you figure out how much/often to change by how high ammonia/nitrate is as its cycling. Remember to bring the new water to same temp as that in the tank (if it comes out of the tap freezing let it sit over night in a warm part of the house) especially if you don't have a heater in there.


So I got it tested yesterday. The parameters were:
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 5.0
Nitrate 80

I'm assuming the nitrite and nitrates are from the soil since it's only been 5 days.


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

I'd recommend a partial water change with those nitrites and nitrates, is the soil capped with sand or gravel?


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## cbachmann (Aug 6, 2013)

Damn. You better do some agressive WC, and soon. That poor betta is going to die very quickly with levels like that. Do you have any kind of a filter?


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

bettafish [dot]com has a lot about betta care and the people there are probably more familiar with low/no tech new betta 'tanks', I'd recommend you read up or post your question over there too.


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## Coastlife247 (Dec 6, 2013)

AquaAurora said:


> I'd recommend a partial water change with those nitrites and nitrates, is the soil capped with sand or gravel?


Yes I have it capped with sand. It may have seeped out when I was burying the first plants. But I did a %30 water change today. I'm trying not to do a complete water change and throw off the cycle. I do have a separate bowl that I can put the betta in if the high levels continue.


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

I would concentrate on the lighted plants to get rid of the ammonia and possibly the Nitrite. But you do have to worry about the stock. Standard procedure would be to test the water every day and change enough to lower the test results (i.e., 50% is half the test results).

Putting in stem plants heavily (Anachris is one) should take care of the problem as long as the light is sufficient and the plants are growing.


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

Django said:


> I would concentrate on the lighted plants to get rid of the ammonia and possibly the Nitrite. But you do have to worry about the stock. Standard procedure would be to test the water every day and change enough to lower the test results (i.e., 50% is half the test results).
> 
> Putting in stem plants heavily (Anachris is one) should take care of the problem as long as the light is sufficient and the plants are growing.


I agree, daily wc and daily testing are in order, but don't expect the plants to do all the work. I had anacharis in a simular volume tank I did a fish-less cycle in (used pure ammonia and a syringe), and while it is a great fast growing it won't make the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate plummet on its own, you have to help it along with water changes. Your benificial bacteria will grow on the substrate and any hardscape (decor) you have, as long as you treat (de-chlorinate) water and bring it to temp with the tank they should not be stunted by the water changes.


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## jeremy va (Dec 22, 2012)

Hopefully someone else who knows their chemistry will chime in but:

If the bag you show contained the soil you used I think you need to immediately remove and rehome you livestock somewhere temporary while you correct the problem and I really mean immediately. Your parameters are way high and will get worse because it appears, from what I can see on the label, that you have a seed starting mix that contains supplemental fertilizer. That's indicated by the 0.05 0.05 0.05 and the ingredients N, P, and K.

In the longer term, I would take the tank down and start over because I don't think you can buffer out those chemicals or neutralize them in any easy way. I don't think bacteria will keep up with the leaching and you are setting yourself up for disaster. There are full instructions on creating a soil tank on this site and one critical ingredient is the correct substrate/soil. You should read these and go buy the correct mix. The mix you have now is probably also releasing some form of ammonia but I'm not a chemist so I'm not sure how that works. As you know, ammonia will kill your fish.

WCs will only lower the parameters temporarily -- basically the soil is full of nitrogen (see label) and it is leaching out into the tank. I'm surprised you don't have an algae bloom. 

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news.


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## Coastlife247 (Dec 6, 2013)

jeremy va said:


> Hopefully someone else who knows their chemistry will chime in but:
> 
> If the bag you show contained the soil you used I think you need to immediately remove and rehome you livestock somewhere temporary while you correct the problem and I really mean immediately. Your parameters are way high and will get worse because it appears, from what I can see on the label, that you have a seed starting mix that contains supplemental fertilizer. That's indicated by the 0.05 0.05 0.05 and the ingredients N, P, and K.
> 
> ...


I followed the steps of her journal. You can view it here. http://www.bookmasters.com/marktplc/00388Shrimp.pdf
It says that it is fine to have NPK as long as it's below the listed percentages. Which mine is being .05-.05-.05
Here's a photo from her experiment. 








She doesn't say to do water changes at least not the first week. So I may just remove the betta to another bowl until the ammonia disappears.


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## jeremy va (Dec 22, 2012)

On the caption below the picture you just posted Ms. Walstad says something along the lines if: "I've gotten good results using MGOPM. It contains well composed organic matter, no chemical fertilizers (e.g. ammonium sulfate) and has a desirably low NPK ratio of etc etc etc..." But the label you posted earlier in this string indicates that fertilizer has been added. It is a little ambiguous but I think we are talking about the difference between the ingredients (on the soil you used) and the analysis (on the label in the book).

I think if you still have the bag and you look at it there may be other clues -- it sure looks like a supplemental starting mix from what I can see. I'm speculating now, but I'm guessing a supplement is much more readily available and will leach into the water column faster than the naturally occurring NPK -- I think that is what you are seeing.


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## Coastlife247 (Dec 6, 2013)

jeremy va said:


> On the caption below the picture you just posted Ms. Walstad says something along the lines if: "I've gotten good results using MGOPM. It contains well composed organic matter, no chemical fertilizers (e.g. ammonium sulfate) and has a desirably low NPK ratio of etc etc etc..." But the label you posted earlier in this string indicates that fertilizer has been added. It is a little ambiguous but I think we are talking about the difference between the ingredients (on the soil you used) and the analysis (on the label in the book).
> 
> I think if you still have the bag and you look at it there may be other clues -- it sure looks like a supplemental starting mix from what I can see. I'm speculating now, but I'm guessing a supplement is much more readily available and will leach into the water column faster than the naturally occurring NPK -- I think that is what you are seeing.


No, I did plenty of research on the soil types. Checked many forums and YouTube blogs about successful naturally planted bowls. She recommends no fertilizer. But fertilizer is just feces. Fish make feces. it's broken down from ammonia (NH4) > Nitrites (NO2) > Nitrates (NO3 and non toxic to fish). It shouldn't be any different than dumping a bunch of fish in the aquarium at once. The ammonia spikes, then gets broken down to nitrite which spikes, then broken down to Nitrate (meaning the tank has cycled).


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## peachii (Jun 1, 2013)

I would recommend taking the betta and snail out until you monitor it for a few weeks or a month and make sure it doesn't suddenly leech to toxic levels. I've not actually seen anyone do a planted tank and use regular seed starting soil mix that wasn't *organic*. Everything recommended that i have researched and seen has put emphasis on using the Organic versions of whatever brand you get because there is a difference in the types that use non-organic and the way the organic is made and how long it will effect your critters in the tank and water parameters.

Not saying it won't work because eventually it will level out (i would think) but I have no idea how long it will take and how it will effect your betta and snail in the meantime.


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## jeremy va (Dec 22, 2012)

CoastLife,

I respectfully disagree. Fertilizer -- as in natural garden fertilizer -- is not "just feces". It is composted manure and there is a big difference. If you put raw cow/chicken/horse manure on your garden it will burn the plants and can kill them. I know because I've done it -). Regardless, the product you put in the tank is almost certainly supplemented with a chemical form of NPK that is readily accessible by the plants for which is was intended -- after all, it is a growing mix. There's nothing wrong with chemicals, of course, but there is a problem if the stuff is, basically, the same as the artificial fertilizer we put in our tanks if we do an EI regime. From what I can see and what you have said your tank's parameters are off the charts and the only plausible explanation is the supplemental fert in the soil which is flooding the tank. This is presumably the reason why Ms W. (who is, after all, THE expert on soil tanks), recommends that one does not use a soil that has been supplemented with fertilizer. 

I don't want to come off as being argumentative -- I just want to help but I'm reaching the point where I can't explain the chemical issues clearly. Perhaps someone else with some chem background can weigh in here...


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## Coastlife247 (Dec 6, 2013)

Sorry if I sounded argumentative as well. I admit knowing little to nothing about terrestrial animal feces and it's effects on aquatic plants. 
I used this option because organic options were not available at the 5 stores I tried. All of my plants are doing great. My hyacinth SHOULD be capable of pulling out any heavy metals and hopefully sulfates. 
I have moved my betta and snail to a 1gal bowl until I see that the ammonia and nitrites have disappeared. I have a sand cap and will not be adding more stem plants, just allowing the current ones to flourish. 
I will post the parameters each time I test it as an update. Thank you for all of your comments wish me luck as this is my first "low tech" attempt.


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## jeremy va (Dec 22, 2012)

I get MGO from Lowes or HD. They carry a bunch of different mixes that are not suitable and the MG mixes can look alike and have very similar names so you do have to be careful.

It will be interesting to see how long it takes for the tank to stabilize. You'll then need to think about future plantings and whether you will, by disturbing the soil and removing the cap, create a situation where the chems leach out again. One other thing that may come out is the perlite but that's probably a nuisance and not a threat. I hope it works out though, as I said earlier, my instinct would be to start over.


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## Coastlife247 (Dec 6, 2013)

jeremy va said:


> I get MGO from Lowes or HD. They carry a bunch of different mixes that are not suitable and the MG mixes can look alike and have very similar names so you do have to be careful.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how long it takes for the tank to stabilize. You'll then need to think about future plantings and whether you will, by disturbing the soil and removing the cap, create a situation where the chems leach out again. One other thing that may come out is the perlite but that's probably a nuisance and not a threat. I hope it works out though, as I said earlier, my instinct would be to start over.


I checked the lowes and Home Depots to no avail. I will keep the tank as is. Basically because I'm interested if it will work, then I can post my findings later.


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## Coastlife247 (Dec 6, 2013)

jeremy va said:


> I get MGO from Lowes or HD. They carry a bunch of different mixes that are not suitable and the MG mixes can look alike and have very similar names so you do have to be careful.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how long it takes for the tank to stabilize. You'll then need to think about future plantings and whether you will, by disturbing the soil and removing the cap, create a situation where the chems leach out again. One other thing that may come out is the perlite but that's probably a nuisance and not a threat. I hope it works out though, as I said earlier, my instinct would be to start over.


Here the video I found when researching. 
http://youtu.be/QIXMeysnBv8


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## AGUILAR3 (Jun 22, 2013)

Coastlife247 said:


> I checked the lowes and Home Depots to no avail.


My Home Depot didn't carry the smaller bags of MG so I tried Walmart and found the small bags I needed


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## GadgetGirl (Oct 11, 2013)

If you notice, the bag also states wetting agents and perlite, neither of which is good for submerged soil. 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4


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## Coastlife247 (Dec 6, 2013)

GadgetGirl said:


> If you notice, the bag also states wetting agents and perlite, neither of which is good for submerged soil.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4


Most of the perlite was picked out before hand. And then some floated to the top where I removed it. The rest is capped. The surfactant shouldn't be a problem in dry plants it's beneficial for nutrient absorption. I doubt it will have any major effect on the hardy plants I chose.


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## Coastlife247 (Dec 6, 2013)

Also I just realized I had bubbles on my horn wort. And that my hyacinth had new roots sprouting. This is good news right?


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

new growth (leaf/stem/root) is always good, and the hornwort might be pearling or left over bubbles from a water change stuck on the needle like leaves


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## Coastlife247 (Dec 6, 2013)




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## Coastlife247 (Dec 6, 2013)

Ok update. So I did the 30-40% water change and removed my betta 3 days ago. I got my water tested today and there was no ammonia, a small amount of nitrate and nitrate. I miss placed the exact amounts but they said they were negligible. 
So I have put some ghost shrimp (3) into the tank to see how they hold up. The nerite snail remained in the tank and seems to be more active than the last few days. 
Also I found a hitchhiker snail that obviously came in one of the plants. Should I remove him now or allow him to be in the tank?


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## jeremy va (Dec 22, 2012)

On the 8th you were reading: Ammonia 0.25 Nitrite 5.0 Nitrate 80. Today, five days later, the tank is good but you have done a number of wc's. I'd wait and see where they are in two or three days -- don't do a w/c you want to try and determine if the soil is leaching chems. If the test you do in two days or three is same as today's or close to it then put the fish in. I've found it really helps to write down the test results wight he date so I can compare what happens between tests. I hope this helps.


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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

FYI your brazilian sword is not aquatic.


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## Coastlife247 (Dec 6, 2013)

Monster Fish said:


> FYI your brazilian sword is not aquatic.


It seems to be doing well. Should I remove it?


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## Coastlife247 (Dec 6, 2013)

jeremy va said:


> On the 8th you were reading: Ammonia 0.25 Nitrite 5.0 Nitrate 80. Today, five days later, the tank is good but you have done a number of wc's. I'd wait and see where they are in two or three days -- don't do a w/c you want to try and determine if the soil is leaching chems. If the test you do in two days or three is same as today's or close to it then put the fish in. I've found it really helps to write down the test results wight he date so I can compare what happens between tests. I hope this helps.


I try to write it down. I was just in a rush today so he wrote it down for me. Then I lost it...


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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

Coastlife247 said:


> It seems to be doing well. Should I remove it?


It will keep on trying to grow out of the water. If it breaks the surface it might be fine. Not sure if the leaves underwater will survive though. Otherwise, it will eventually rot away underwater since it's commonly sold as a potted house plant. Look up _Spathiphyllum sp_., aka. peace lily


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## Coastlife247 (Dec 6, 2013)

Monster Fish said:


> It will keep on trying to grow out of the water. If it breaks the surface it might be fine. Not sure if the leaves underwater will survive though. Otherwise, it will eventually rot away underwater since it's commonly sold as a potted house plant. Look up _Spathiphyllum sp_., aka. peace lily


Are you sure that's it. Those leaves look awefull waxy. That's a cool looking stamen tho lol


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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

Coastlife247 said:


> Are you sure that's it. Those leaves look awefull waxy. That's a cool looking stamen tho lol


If you got it at the LFS and it was sold as a Brazilian sword, it is definitely non-aquatic.


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