# Does "bad" light foster algae?



## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

Short answer- no, "bad" light does not promote algae.

Longer answer- "bad" light may not provide the correct wavelengths needed for optimum photosynthesis in higher plants, and this can lead to simpler plants/algaes/bacterias outcompeting the plants for nutrients, being less demanding in their use of light. It doesn't promote the growth of less desirable things, it simply is less likely to allow the growth of desirable things, and naturally this is seen as the algae "taking over" due to the increased production, as they are better suited to less than ideal conditions.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Lingwendil said:


> Short answer- no, "bad" light does not promote algae.
> 
> Longer answer- "bad" light may not provide the correct wavelengths needed for optimum photosynthesis in higher plants, and this can lead to simpler plants/algaes/bacterias outcompeting the plants for nutrients, being less demanding in their use of light. It doesn't promote the growth of less desirable things, it simply is less likely to allow the growth of desirable things, and naturally this is seen as the algae "taking over" due to the increased production, as they are better suited to less than ideal conditions.


Thank you. So the answer is "yes" in a roundabout way. 

I suppose when a light has a high CRI, that means it mimics sunlight and will provide at least "good" conditions for plant growth.

The blue/red grow lights apparently will grow plants better per watt because they only provide what plants need, not what the human eye cares about. However, I have also read that blue and red emitters are less efficient.... so that begs the question, why aren't growers using "daylight" bulbs to grow their plants? 

The reason I ask these questions is that I am undertaking the design of the light for my 75g tank. There seem to be two approaches: 1) Plant lights that represent individual spectrums with the ability to tune reds/blues for potential control over flowering and vegitation 2) High CRI lights, with color channels to alter "look".


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

White LED's are blue emitters plus phosphors.. soooo can't be any less efficient than a blue emitter..always some losses..
Green are the de-facto least efficient emitters.. Look up green droop..That is why Luxeon developed lime and pc amber.. Both phosphor corrected one color diodes..afaict
https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2016/02/f29/hahn_leddroop_raleigh2016.pdf


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## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

ChrisX said:


> Thank you. So the answer is "yes" in a roundabout way.


Uh, sure :smile:



> The reason I ask these questions is that I am undertaking the design of the light for my 75g tank. There seem to be two approaches: 1) Plant lights that represent individual spectrums with the ability to tune reds/blues for potential control over flowering and vegitation 2) High CRI lights, with color channels to alter "look".


The horticultural industry isn't focused on providing aesthetically pleasing or "normal" looking lights, and we are. Similar approaches exist for sure, but cross pollination of ideas is not a bad thing. 

I hate pointing people to manufacturing rags and info other than technical specs, but the Luxeon Sunplus/horticultural series have some pretty good documentation, and even cited sources on some of their available papers. 

I really like the Sunplus approach to lighting, some of the usual suspects (blue, red) for photosynthetic "punch" with some very useful auxiliary colors for stimulating addition responses or affect, and a really nice all-purpose white that is very effective and aesthetic on its own. Very useful to us aquarium dudes :smile:


I had a much longer response typed up, but the page auto-refreshed, so it's lost to the aether, so that's all for now.


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

The biggest advantage of blue / Red grow lamps is that less electrical power is needed. If you are not producing green and yellow light you don't need power for these colors. And contrary to popular believe plants don't only use red and blue light. In fact plants can use the entire visible spectrum of light. Plants can use red and blue very efficiently while efficiency under green light is low. 

While the amount of light a plant or algae need can be different there can considerable differences in the amount of needed for any type of plant or algae. Some verities of algae may prefer red blue grow lights while others may perform poorly. 

In my personal experience with algae and lights the Kelvin Rating doesn't mater (I am using 3000K). My lights have a fixed CRI rating over 90 and since it has a dimmer going from Very bright to very dim had no noticeable effect on my algae. The only way I was about to get my algae under control is by eliminating all deficiencies in my fertilizers. Other people use incandescent bulbs (CRI100) and others use fluorescent with a wide variety of kelvin and CRI ratings. So the only things that I think are important are that the light brightness, and your personal preference on for CRI and kelvin rating.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Lingwendil said:


> I hate pointing people to manufacturing rags and info other than technical specs, but the Luxeon Sunplus/horticultural series have some pretty good documentation, and even cited sources on some of their available papers.
> 
> I really like the Sunplus approach to lighting, some of the usual suspects (blue, red) for photosynthetic "punch" with some very useful auxiliary colors for stimulating addition responses or affect, and a really nice all-purpose white that is very effective and aesthetic on its own. Very useful to us aquarium dudes :smile:


My concern about the SunPlus series is that the white looks good, but as soon as you start adding the plant spectrums, the whole look will be purple. IN which case CRI goes out the window for the efficiency of the red/blue leds. In which case, why even use the blue and red?

Maybe if the set is calibrated to look like sunlight with all four colors (+ lime) running in concert, then its more than just a marketing campaign. But that begs the question, if those four colors dont provide a high CRI, then why use them? (No where in the literature is CRI stated, from any combination of leds.)

Also, if the sunplus is really for horticulture and not CRI/viewing, do you really think a high CRI was a design requirement for that set?

I started the sunplus thread and people made assumptions about the quality of the white an it's synergy with the other colors. No one really knows what is going on without specs, and unfortunately that thread is only a best guess. Until I see a four channel sunplus build, I hesitate to jump.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> mydata lime.txt [120°] x4
> philipslumileds luxeon-rebel royalblue (440-460nm) [120°] x1
> philipslumileds luxeon-rebel deepred (650-670nm) [120°] x2
> ----------------------------------------
> ...


*@d50*



> * mixing list
> ----------------------------------------
> mydata lime.txt [120°] x3
> philipslumileds luxeon-rebel royalblue (440-460nm) [120°] x1
> ...


*@d65*


> Lime LEDs
> With parts exceeding 200 lm/W efficacy, LUMILEDS' LUXEON Lime emitters enable the most efficient, tunable white light
> 
> Image of LUMILEDS' Lime LEDsAs a substitute to regular green, lime’s unique color point is much closer to the Black Body Curve. When mixing to create white light, much less of the inefficient red is required to meet the right color point. LUMILEDS' Lime’s high efficacy as a standalone emitter already provides a big boost to overall system efficacy. Lime’s wide spectral bandwidth enables significantly higher CRI and R9 than common RGB combinations.
> ...


https://www.digikey.com/en/product-highlight/p/philips-lumileds/lime-leds


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

OK, so where is this lime+red+blue build so i can see it? Not just "simulation data".


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

ChrisX said:


> OK, so where is this lime+red+blue build so i can see it? Not just "simulation data".


Not sure about Jeff's, but that is a different look. Not sure what the PAR is. Plants look decent - fish, not so much.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> OK, so where is this lime+red+blue build so i can see it? Not just "simulation data".


Well, that is for you to judge for yourself..
First people have their own "reaction" to any toning
Secondy photographs or jps aren't exactly "real"

It really needs to be experienced in person..
You can buy a Hue and see for yourself..
https://www.popularmechanics.com/te...r-changing-connected-led-lightbulbs-15675126/



> And Hue certainly is interesting. Each bulb has five lime-green, four red–orange, and two royal blue LEDs. Philips says that combination allows for the best possible tunable white light and can effectively form any color in the spectrum


https://www.popularmechanics.com/te...r-changing-connected-led-lightbulbs-15675126/

moving upscale:
https://www.chauvetprofessional.com/news/lime-light/
Though it does also contain amber (Pc-Amber?)
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...MI9fDalpzZ2QIVyLjACh14-QsSEAQYASABEgJKtPD_BwE

Point being that there are way fussier color people finding it worthwhile..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

If its so great, where are the tanks with them?

Bump:


Immortal1 said:


> Not sure about Jeff's, but that is a different look. Not sure what the PAR is. Plants look decent - fish, not so much.


Thats horrible.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

That's just RGB from a Radion I assume.............

for fun.. OCW (Ocean Coral White) LED board (deep red, cyan, royal blue (RGB) )









LEd' offer infinite color combos and infinite "whites"..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Has anyone actually put together a SunPlus W+RBL build for planted tank with the purported 97+ CRI?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Be the first.. actually I thought Linwendil was messing w/ them...........

Why do you mis-trust science.. 

* MIXING LIST
----------------------------------------
myData sunplus6500c.csv [120°] x5
myData lime.txt [120°] x1
PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel RoyalBlue (440-460nm) [120°] x0.5
PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel DeepRed (650-670nm) [120°] x1
----------------------------------------

* SIMULATION DATA
----------------------------------------
Luminous flux : 1,295 lm
Radiant flux : 5,191 mW
PPF : 23.7 umol/s
TCP : 6410 K
CRI : 98
λp : 659 nm
Color : #FFD3DF

Of course proportions may not be exact.. Took some liberties entering lumens and notice the blue is "dimmed"..
Slight tone.. 
#ffd3df Color Hex


I know, probably tired of seeing these..
BTW: Who do you know that owns a $1900 spectrophotometer so "we" can verify CRI?
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...MIs7Ga7ITb2QIV0bfACh2E3wSfEAYYCSABEgKy7fD_BwE


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## napaeozapus (Feb 22, 2014)

I think the answer to this question is going to be one of my old professor's favorite answers, "It depends." In forest ecosystems with multiple canopy layers, the lower level, shade tolerant species tend to have more accessory pigments to pick up green and red wavelengths not utilized by the higher canopy layers. I see no reason why aquatic plants (including the various species of algae) should be any different. The difficulty as I see it is in determining into which category a given species might fall. In nature, the depth at which a plant grows and water clarity may also affect the wavelengths of light to which it has access. As far as I am aware, the photosystems of algae and higher plants are pretty much the same. With cyanobacteria, the picture is a bit different as I recall. I believe I have seen references to things like "Chlorophyll F" and other such oddities not found in plants corresponding to the ability of cyanobacteria to utilize wavelengths of light not used by plants.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

This thread just reminds me of an "old" build that has everything but the kitchen sink.. well maybe even that..


















http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/2...-leds-prev-vero18-*updated-2017-01-18*-5.html
I recommend the entire journey...


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Be the first.. actually I thought Linwendil was messing w/ them...........
> 
> Why do you mis-trust science..


I question the accuracy of the data you're using. Didn't you pull it from the advertizing graph from their website? And assume that the white was identical to one of their whites in another series?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> I question the accuracy of the data you're using. Didn't you pull it from the advertising graph from their website? And assume that the white was identical to one of their whites in another series?


Yea the data is an estimate but I doubt it has more than a few % inaccuracy and maybe even less than between lot to lot variation of LEd's in general..

My only real catch is the lumen values.. Kind of ballparked them so a single diode (or chip) will be possibly stronger or weaker than in the calculation but that is a dimming thing.
Well along w/ drive current changes ect..

It's ALL a ballpark figure..and if you play w/ the charts you will see that even like 10% "dimming" will throw off the CRI by huge amounts esp w/ blues..
kind of like the Radion example, just tweaking the %'s of RGB make it go from "bad" to good..

Yes, I'm still questioning the Fresh fish vs sunplus vs 6500K "normal" Luxeon..
Wrote to Luxeon twice now regarding this issue..still awaiting the response but they are slow..
curves looked pretty similar and should have been more similar (I thought) then they ended up w/ AFTER importing the data..
If I get an answer from Luxeon I can verify WHO was in error.. 

Matter of fact most of my imports were pretty close to manuf specs except for a few chips.. Sunplus white being one and Citizen COB being another..
Frankly, and this is just my opinion, the erroneous ones w/ with their specs not mine..
Sunplus does not come close to 6500k and the Citizens does not come close to the listed CRI..
Was it their curve or was it a loose interpretation?? Can't honestly say..

The Spectra program itself, though a massive undertaking, may have it's own flaw as well....


When I imported the "advertising" curve into Spectra for the FF came to about what I was told by them as to CRI.. Kelvin kind of followed along.
Have no doubts about the fresh fish being the highest easily available 6500K LED out there ATM.. ATM.. 
Sunplus looks to be a good white chip. First in terms of quality and output, second in terms of spectrum 

don't forget you can adjust colors in, depending on the dim protocol 256 "steps". Tweaking color to taste in 1% increments.. 

If you thought I ever assumed to state put x,y,z colors at x,y,z percent and you get 95CRI. too many variables, but I TRY to give people the idea of what is a good start to not waste time and money..
I suggest, to the best of my knowledge, what would be a good starting point.
Funny thing about people is no matter what "I" say, they ALWAYS, w/out fail will put their own stamp on it..
Suggest they use all 500mA drivers and sure enough, they wil go but 1A ones... 

Everything is a balance ....

BTW: Every high K high CRI LED follows roughly the same "pattern"..
Yuji violet pump high CRI white.
Pretty much BY DEFINITION..Follow the sun line..
https://www.yujiintl.com/high-cri-led-lighting









LED curves have a "tell" so to speak...


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I agree with science, but there are too many sources of error for me to put my money behind it... unless I've seen someone else.

The proposed sunplus four channel solution would have one "correct" (high CRI) setting, and other variations could be used to simulate sunrise/sunset and moonlight. I mean, wouldn't that be the perfect tank light? 97+ CRI with the ability to modify the RGB channels for plant growth or time of day. 

I'm intrigued... but what is so special about these leds this time? (Why didn't anyone find this ez pz high CRI combination before.. lime red and blue have existed for a while now...) 

AFAIK, the multicolor commercial LED "any color" bulbs are not using these RBL+W leds. If they could achieve 97 CRI... AND achieve effecient plant growth, wouldn't they be the basis for most of their home lighting solutions? I mean this is holy grail stuff... the bulb would look like daylight AND you could also grow all your house plants with them.. efficiently. IMO, you are using Spectra tool to convince yourself that these are holy grail leds.

I'm actually leaning more towards emulating the SBReef 55x3 epi plant light. Cost of leds.. $30.

https://sbreeflights.com/sbox-fw-plant-lights/21-basic-fresh-water-plant-led-light.html

Each channel could be split for four total channels (giving more predominantly red and blue channels for sunrise/sunset/moonlight) It wouldn't have the SB reef optics, but performance would be somewhere in the neighborhood of what's presented in their video. Would buy the SB Reef, imo its a good deal, but would need two running at half or less for a 75g. Better to just spread leds out and run a little hotter.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Do you remember how bad florescent started out and the years till they got more "real" looking..

Same w/ CF...

Same W/ LED..

Plain economics and the "good enough" philosophy of capitalism..


To be honest, and trying not to be too conceited, don't think anyone, prior to me, giving it ANY attention AT all.. (CRI).
sure there had to be others but.... selective memory..
Now this isn't to say it is THE important issue, it's not but it arose from the gosh awful color of early white LED's and the 
"they look terrible next to my flourescents" (which had already gone down the maturity road)

Then of course it was the hort branch selling as "economically" feasible LED's w/ no yellow/green ect. 

In industry nothing moves till the money starts moving. As long as "good enough" is accepted nothing will change..
)

There are/were other factors like cultural differences , metal halide "looks" ect.. Blame Amano 
Industry concentrating on "incandescent" CRI ect..

Then there is the blue thing, circadian rhythm, eyes, ect......



> IMO, you are using Spectra tool to convince yourself that these are holy grail leds.


That is just silly, just trying (and there are dozens of ways to do this) to match daylight "white" and have some control over toning..

no secret that warm sunset/sunrises are part of my "required" set and to be honest this Lime/R,G,B doesn't really even allow THAT.. .
I'm sort of following here not leading..just trying to keep people from making those "horrible" lights.. 

Took me at least a year to even CONSIDER lime for anything..The leaders in lime showed me it was possible and expanded from there..
jedimasterben was probably the first fw person to use them at all and maybe the first for his reef tanks as well.

You want simple "holy grail" aquarium lighting:
http://www.luminus.com/products/studio.html

One of each color temp..



> High lumen output
> Over 25,000 lm @ 3150K, 25ºC
> Over 27,000 lm @ 5600K, 25ºC
> 3150K and 5600K CCT
> ...


My imported data from their "advertising" chart..


> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> myData LuminousStudio5600k .csv [120°] x1
> ----------------------------------------
> ...


close enough.............. 

you, yourself rejected the COB's so I just followed along......... 



> *"Show the world what quality LED lighting looks like."*


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> you, yourself rejected the COB's so I just followed along.........


I rejected COBs because I haven't seen them meet the hype on larger tanks. Spotlighting and inability to mix colors make them uninteresting to me.

Light distribution and tuning are more important than CRI imo.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Thats not exactly fair.. 
Physics covers spotlighting on large tanks..
Even Kessils get "uniform" at depth..

Color mixing sort of goes both ways ..
IF in the COB good..
IF outside the COB not as good.

Linear high dense arrays are the best. If you go over my "history" it shows I've personally always favored them for the most part.

I've seen others here use lime..it works.
I didn't consider it more than a fad (fine w/ it, fine w/out it) till I "played" w/ the spectrum. 
Certainly better than "normal green" in both output and spectrum.


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