# Thoughts on what my plant may be lacking



## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

I am always on the verge of a balanced tank.

But I have yet to keep my tank running at top health.

I have been up and down in terms of progress but still seem to be missing things.

Currently my tank has decent growth but I am still battling GHA and maybe some staghorn.

While I try and sort that out I wondered if a photo of my Staurogyne Repens could possible help in terms of what I may be lacking.

Here is a photo.









Does the plant look like it may be missing something, nutrients etc?

I dose EI and run CO2 as high as possible. I do not dose GH booster because I have very hard water with a good amount of CA and MG per my water report.

I feel like it should be more green and have less of a yellow tone.

Maybe thats the color it should be and it doesn't need anything.

I assume the condition of the bottom leaves are from old emersed growth, but I am not sure because I lost track of how old that particular plant is. It may be original and has not fully shed it's emersed lower leaves or it may be older and just be defficient in something.

iso


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi iso,

Yes, the plant looks like it is 'missing something'; look closely at the plant - what do you see?

What I noticed first was the oldest leaves seem to be most effected showing chlorosis and holes which become necrosis (lower arrow). The less old leaves show chlorosis on the tips and the margins of the leaves (second arrow), the newest growth shows some yellowing but looks OK. When older leaves seem to become effected first it is usually caused by a mobile nutrient such as magnesium, phosphorus (phosphate), or potassium. Your problem seems to be due to a lack of potassium. You are dosing using the EI method, do you dose the full amounts? Is K2SO4 one of the nutrients you dose (some do some don't)?

If you are dosing full EI levels (KNO3. KH2PO4, Micros), and you are dosing KH2PO4 as part of the dosing regime, then I would guess you are adding sufficient potassium (K) and your K deficiency is due to high levels of calcium (Ca). If you are not dosing K2SO4 I would try adding that first (I dose an equal amount of K2SO4 as the KH2PO4). If you are already dosing KH2PO4 then you can try adding a bit more or you may have to find a way to lower the Ca in your tank.



> Necrotic spots develop on older leaves
> 
> a. Margins of older leaves become chlorotic and then burn, or small chlorotic spots progressing to necrosis appear scattered on old leaf blades. _Calcium excess impedes uptake of potassium_ cations.... *potassium deficiency*
> 
> Potassium deficiency symptoms first appear on the recently matured leaves of the plant (not on the young, immature leaves at the growing point). In some plants, the first sign of potassium deficiency is a white specking or freckling of the leaf blades. With time, the symptoms become more pronounced on the older leaves , and they become mottled or yellowish between the veins and scorched at the margins. These progress inward until the entire leaf blade is scorched. If sodium cations are present and taken up in place of K+1, leaf flecking (necrotic spots scattered on leaf surface) and reduced growth occur.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi iso,
> 
> Yes, the plant looks like it is 'missing something'; look closely at the plant - what do you see?
> 
> ...


Hi Seattle,

Here is my dosing schedule.
This is a 17 gallon tank.

I alternate the following
Micros
1/32 tsp Plantex CSM+B
1/32 tsp Iron Chelate


Macros
1/8 tsp KNO3
1/32 tsp KH2PO4
1/32 tsp K2SO4

I had problems with what I assumed was chlorosis (some plants being more yellow than green) before but could not figure out why.

I spoke to the town water dept and they told me my calcium levels are 54ppm and Magnesium is 35ppm. My GH 25 and KH 9.

I kept thinking my problem was my hard water. In my searches, the consensus SEEMED to be it should not pose a problem except for a few plants that do not like hard water, like tonina etc.
I saw pictures of people with very hard water stating they did not have to use RO and their plants thrive etc in response to peoples concerns with hard water.

So I stopped worrying about my hard water and have been trying to find problems elsewhere.

I am not saying my water is not a problem. I am just giving info on the research I did. I am open to any info you can provide on why my tap water may be the issue.

Thanks,
iso


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi iso,

I am not saying your tap water is the issue; just that it may be. You can try increasing your dosing level of K2SO4 and see if there is any improvement. Watch your new growth, not the existing growth, and see if you notice as change. I would try starting with 1/16 tsp of K2SO4 and keep the rest of your nutrients the same.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi iso,
> 
> I am not saying your tap water is the issue; just that it may be. You can try increasing your dosing level of K2SO4 and see if there is any improvement. Watch your new growth, not the existing growth, and see if you notice as change. I would try starting with 1/16 tsp of K2SO4 and keep the rest of your nutrients the same.


Thanks Seattle,

I will try increasing the K2SO4 and see what happens.

iso


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Well, things are still not better.

I am still having trouble with the following plants. Blyxa Japonica will not root or grow.(it is all gone from my tank) Limnophilia Aromatica does not grow and seems to just be stunted. Any growth is VERY slow.
My rotala Sp Green seems to do ok, but it gets beat up by the algae, so I am not worried about that one, right now.

The Staurogyne Repens, same as the LA, stunted and barely grows.

As Seattle suggested, I increased the amount of K2SO4 for a month with no change to the Staurogyne Repens, (the original problem plant).

The only 2 plants that seem to show good growth are the Star Grass and the Hemianthus micranthemoides.

I am still battling green hair algae or maybe it's Cladophora or Spirogyra. I am really not sure.
To combat this I have reduced the light intensity, cleaned my filter and did extra GRAVEL VACS instead of simply doing water changes. It still persists.

I am trying to do what many suggest. Ignore getting rid of the algae and try and grow my plants. Thus the reason for asking here how to get the problem plants to grow.

Any more thoughts?

Here is todays pic of the Staurogyne Repens. You can see it is mostly unchanged from Oct. I don't think the small amount of algae that collects on it should be having an affect on it growing. It is not so much that it blocks out the light.










Thanks,
iso


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Anyone have any other suggestions?

I have since planted new S repens from my emersed tank. (about 2 months ago)

The plants survived fine, but they still will not grow. They just seem to stay stunted until enough time has passed that they get more and more ragged. If I do get growth, it is very slow and the leaves stay very small. Eventually they get more tattered and yellow and stay stunted.

I do not have photos, will get some later, but the new plants pretty much look the same as the original photo in this thread.

The other plant that acts similar is L Aromatica. It grows VERY slow but just doesn't flourish. Thats the best way to describe it. Bottom leaves fall off even though there are only a few stems, so it's not light starved at the base.

Stargrass, Hemianthus glomeratus, Bacopa monnieri and Rotala Sp Green are doing fine. 

I don't know what else to change. Sitting around for 2 months without making a change and getting the same results from the newly plants s repens is frustrating.

iso


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Here are some updated photo's of the S.Repens. Maybe the pic of the Rotala behind the S. Repens will help identify the problem.


















I changed my light settings to have a longer photo period 7 days ago. It was at 6 hours. I changed it to 8. That was the only change I could think of trying.
I have not noticed any difference.

My Satellite Plus PRO is at 80% across all channels.

So I assume:

It's not my light.
My CO2 is dialed down one notch under fish stress. So it cant be CO2. I always read how it's almost always CO2. I don't see how it could be in my case.
Tank is 17 gallons. I have even dialed in my flow to make sure that is taken care of.
I dose per EI. My ferts come from GLA. KNO3, K2SO4, KH2PO4, Plantex CSM+B, Iron Chelate Fe
I have very hard water GH 26, KH 14 so I don't dose CA or MG. All the water reports say I have plenty of CA and MG. So I don't think adding any of those would help.

Dosing schedule:

Monday
Micros
1/32 tsp Plantex CSM+B
1/32 tsp Iron Chelate Fe


Tuesday
Macros
1/8 tsp KNO3
1/32 tsp KH2PO4
1/32 tsp K2SO4 not really needed.


Wednesday
Micros
1/32 tsp Plantex CSM+B
1/32 tsp Iron Chelate Fe

Thursday
Macros
1/8 tsp KNO3
1/32 tsp KH2PO4
1/32 tsp K2SO4


Friday
Micros
1/32 tsp Plantex CSM+B
1/32 tsp Iron Chelate Fe

Saturday: rest day

Sunday
50% Water change
Macros
1/8 tsp KNO3
1/32 tsp KH2PO4
1/32 tsp K2SO4


Tank temp is about 78deg.
Water change once a week.
Do I need root tabs? I researched this and saw no reason to add them. I have tried in the past with other plants and didn't notice any benefit.

I am not sure what's left.

Does the picture tell anyone anything?
The plants barely grow, so it's hard to tell if the very bottom leaves are the original emersed growth. I doubt they are. I planted these plants from my emersed setup months ago.
They have had plenty of time to acclimate.

Thanks,
iso


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

Root tabs have shown a little benefit in my tank, the problem is I need to trim, pull and replant a few things...but I can't because I don't want disturb the osmocote+. So I'm stuck waiting a few months to replant until they have dissolved. 

Your GH is insane. Absolutely insane. I thought mine was bad at half that. @Seattle_Aquarist mentioned that if everything else was being dosed properly, it MIGHT be due to excess calcium in the tap. Do you have access to RO? You could run RO water for a few weeks and see if things improve. You could remineralize your RO with just a little bit of tap.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

mgeorges said:


> Root tabs have shown a little benefit in my tank, the problem is I need to trim, pull and replant a few things...but I can't because I don't want disturb the osmocote+. So I'm stuck waiting a few months to replant until they have dissolved.
> 
> Your GH is insane. Absolutely insane. I thought mine was bad at half that. @*Seattle_Aquarist* mentioned that if everything else was being dosed properly, it MIGHT be due to excess calcium in the tap. Do you have access to RO? You could run RO water for a few weeks and see if things improve. You could remineralize your RO with just a little bit of tap.


I do not have access to RO. I entertained the idea in the past when these problems have occurred, but all the info I have read say's it doesn't affect any aquarium plants but a select few, which I do not keep.
I even saw the results of others with very hard tap water and their success. So I am hesitant to chase my water as the problem.

I could test it with bottled water for 2 weeks. My guess is it would take 2 weeks to see if there is any benefit. Maybe a 1 to 3 mix? We get water delivered in 5 gallon jugs. I guess I would have to sacrifice 2 of them. My tanks 17 gallons. So 5 gallons of bottled and 12 gallons of tap for week 1. Then do a water change week 2 with 5 and 12 again.

iso


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @isonychia,

What is your pH?


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

isonychia said:


> I do not have access to RO. I entertained the idea in the past when these problems have occurred, but all the info I have read say's it doesn't affect any aquarium plants but a select few, which I do not keep.
> I even saw the results of others with very hard tap water and their success. So I am hesitant to chase my water as the problem.
> 
> I could test it with bottled water for 2 weeks. My guess is it would take 2 weeks to see if there is any benefit. Maybe a 1 to 3 mix? We get water delivered in 5 gallon jugs. I guess I would have to sacrifice 2 of them. My tanks 17 gallons. So 5 gallons of bottled and 12 gallons of tap for week 1. Then do a water change week 2 with 5 and 12 again.
> ...


You'd be looking at a mixture more like 5:1 (Distilled:Tap) for remineralization, put GH around or under 6 if I can math correctly... 
At 5gal distilled to 12gal tap, you're still going to be pretty high on that GH scale, you're not even diluting by half. With your current situation and lack of access to RO, I don't know that this is realistic.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @*isonychia*,
> 
> What is your pH?


I have not tested the PH at my current house, just the GH/KH.

We are on the same water source as my old place and it was 7.6 there.

I just never thought to check it as I assumed it would be the same. I will check tonight.

Is it possible my light is set too high? I don't think I read anything that say's you can have too much light.
Obviously too much can cause alage, but I didn't think it could create poor plant health.

iso


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @isonychia (aka Iso)

Do I downloaded and enlarged your most recent pictures. What I missed earlier was the new leaves display chlorosis (yellowing) along the margins. Also, the roots don't look so good, few if any hair roots. Also could you give me a link to the local water utility water report please or the name of your water utility and where it is located.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @*isonychia* (aka Iso)
> 
> Do I downloaded and enlarged your most recent pictures. What I missed earlier was the new leaves display chlorosis (yellowing) along the margins. Also, the roots don't look so good, few if any hair roots. Also could you give me a link to the local water utility water report please or the name of your water utility and where it is located.


Here are 2 links.

2016 and 2017. I supplied both because there seems to be more data in the 2016 version.
My last location was a different water source/company. But the location is within 2 miles of each other, so the ground water should be about the same.

http://waldwicknj.govoffice3.com/ve...}/uploads/2016_Consumer_Confidence_Report.pdf

http://waldwicknj.govoffice3.com/ve...}/uploads/Consumer_Confidence_Report_2017.pdf

Thanks,
iso

Bump: BTW I have more photos. Maybe they could offer more clues. I cant upload higher res versions using the site. Maybe I can host them on my own server and upload them. The details may be helpful.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @isonychia (aka Iso),

So I looked at your new pictures, and along with pH information I have an idea.










First of all with a pH of 7.6 less than 5% of the EDTA chelated iron in the CSM+B that you dose is available to your plants and about 60% of the DTPA chelated iron in the GLA Chelated Iron to the plants. This would account for the chlorosis (yellowing) of the leaf margins of the new leaves on the Staurogyne repens. (See arrow #2) When you have used up the GLA chelated iron change over to Ferrous gluconate as your iron supplement, it should work better in the alkaline pH.

I also noticed this (see arrow #1) when I enlarged the photo; do you see the downward 'hook' at the leaf tip? That is a typical symptom of a calcium deficiency. I know you have [email protected] and you should have a calcium deficiency but that is what is indicated. 

Here is what I suggest. First increase your dosing of the GLA Chelated Iron by 50% for the next two weeks; this should resolve the chlorosis on the leaf margins. I also suggest picking up a container of Seachem Equilibrium. Initially dose 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons of tank volume. Thereafter add 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons of new water added during water changes. This will add some calcium, magnesium, and potassium to your tank.

Continue everything else as you have been except for increasing the iron and adding the Equilibrium to your dosing schedule. Next comes the hard part.......wait! Watch the new leaves as they emerge from the plants; *do not watch the existing leaves they will not change.* Do the new leaves look greener, healthier, straighter, and possibly the growth rate will increase as well. If so we are on the right track. Please provide progress reports and let us know how things go. Hope this helps! -Roy


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

One nutrient that plants nee is chlorine. Most fertilizers don't have it but almost all tap water has it. I have read that chlorine deficiency stunts roots. Perhaps you should try adding some sodium chloride (table salt). With chlorine frequently being used to sterilize tap water a chlorine deficiency is probably very unlikely. But it should be easy to test for this. A dose of 2ppm should be enough and it is not harmful to plants.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @*isonychia* (aka Iso),
> 
> So I looked at your new pictures, and along with pH information I have an idea.
> 
> ...


Hi Roy,

Thank you for taking the time to offer your suggestions.

I will do as you suggested and add additional chelated iron and add the Seachem Equilibrium. I am surprised, as you mentioned, as my gh is high, thus I always assumed I had plenty CA and MG.

After your suggestions I did some searching and saw the various opinions on high KH (or value of PH) vs the different types of iron and how some forms of iron can be more beneficial for a higher KH due to how strongly it's "protected" chelated against the higher KH.
I assume that's why your suggesting adding more of the chelated iron and eventually buying some Ferrous gluconate, which is the most protected iron or is somehow the most available form to plants?

Can you suggest a source of dry Ferrous gluconate. I currently dose everything dry so I figured I might as well keep it all the same. I see NilcoG carries it. (I think I have seen that site mentioned here before).
Or is it easier to just buy the locally available Flourish Iron. It say's it is "Ferrous gluconate iron". So I assume it is a good source, unless there are percentages of the makeup that make it a poor choice.

Thanks,
iso


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @isonychia (aka Iso),


Yes, the high pH is why I suggested changing over to ferrous gluconate. You will still need to dose either CSM+B for other micro-nutrients it contains. Either Nilocg or aquariumfertilizer.com offer ferrous gluconate. I don't think you can dose it 'dry' because it is very concentrated, I dilute it to Seachem Flourish Iron strength to use it in my tanks.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @*isonychia* (aka Iso),
> 
> 
> Yes, the high pH is why I suggested changing over to ferrous gluconate. You will still need to dose either CSM+B for other micro-nutrients it contains. Either Nilocg or aquariumfertilizer.com offer ferrous gluconate. I don't think you can dose it 'dry' because it is very concentrated, I dilute it to Seachem Flourish Iron strength to use it in my tanks.


Thanks Seattle,

Sounds like I can use Flourish if I want. Should I wait to use the Flourish Iron so I don't change too many things at once? It will take me a long time to use up all the Chelated Iron from GLA that I have, just FYI.

I will keep the thread updated and take some photos.

Hopefully the plants respond and s repens begins growing. It would be great if the L Aromatica begins growing as well. Both barely grow.

iso


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

isonychia said:


> Thanks Seattle,
> 
> Sounds like I can use Flourish if I want. Should I wait to use the Flourish Iron so I don't change too many things at once? It will take me a long time to use up all the Chelated Iron from GLA that I have, just FYI.
> 
> ...


Hi @isonychia (aka Iso),

Since your pH is 7.5 and the DPTA GLA Iron Chelate is providing some iron I would continue to use it until it is gone, just dose more heavily. If you are calculating your iron ppm then just assume the iron in the CSM+B is not contributing any iron to your total iron nutrient level. It is interesting that iron seems to be the chelated nutrient that is most effected by a high pH, the other chelated nutrients in CSM+B not so much.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Just another question while I wait for the changes to take affect.

Is it possible that somehow my light vs CO2 balance is off?

As I always say in my posts, my CO2 is cranked as high as possible just under fish distress. Last night I added a few more fish and the new raspboras I added were near the surface. I assume they were not used to my tanks CO2 levels. All the other older fish were fine. So I had to drop the co2 one notch to make the newcomers comfortable.

If my CO2 is as high as possible could I still have too much light? Could the light strength be driving the plants too hard but they are not able, for some unknown reason, to get enough Co2 for the amount of light they are receiving?

This is a small 17 gallon tank with very good flow. So I don't see how it could be a flow problem.

Since I am having growth problems with some of my plants (s repens and Limnophilia Aromatica) it seems like a poor idea to reduce my lighting strength. But it was just something I was brainstorming about after reading lots of info over the past few days.

Can plants be driven too hard with too much light and not enough CO2, but instead of just causing algae, cause stunting/very slow growth?

I always thought one outcome of too much light and not enough CO2 was algae. Besides the algae problem, I assumed there was no other negative with having too much light in terms of plant health. If algae is minimal due to excess light and not smothering plants, how else could it affect plant growth? 

iso


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

I'm just adding more photos here.

This is Limnophila Aromatica. It always drops it's lower leaves. I can never get it to stay healthy at the bottom.
You can see how the lower leaves start losing color. Eventually they melt away.
There are about 4 stems, so it is not starved of light, unless my light is just not strong enough.











Here is stargrass. Just showing the lower leaves doing the same thing as the LA.









iso


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @isonychia (aka Iso),

First, I am not aware of a condition of having too much 'CO2' unless the water becomes too acidic for a species to tolerate.

Second, I'm curious....when did you start dosing the Equilibrium? The reason I ask is when reviewing your pictures I noticed that the Stargrass is still showing the 'downward hook' on the leaf tips of the newer leaves.

Loss of older leaves can happen for a number of reasons however low light and insufficient potassium are the two most likely. Equilibrium contains potassium so if that is the problem as the new leaves mature they should not die off like the existing leaves are currently doing. Remember, the damage has already been done to the existing leaves, it is the new leaves we are observing.

New leaves are still showing 'downward hook' on Stargrass


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @*isonychia* (aka Iso),
> 
> First, I am not aware of a condition of having too much 'CO2' unless the water becomes too acidic for a species to tolerate.
> 
> ...



Hi Roy,

In terms of the CO2, my question was not can I have too much CO2, it was could I have too much light and not enough CO2/CO2 uptake, thus causing my plants to be driven too much by the light strength but not getting enough CO2 even if I am pumping in as much as possible. Thus causing them to be unhealthy.

I had to order the equilibrium. It should be here today or tomorrow, so I have not started dosing it yet. I have upped the chelated iron as you suggested. 

In terms of the stargrass. It is the plant I am holding in my hand in the pic. It has the dying/melting tip on the one leaf. The plants underneath are Micranthemum Umbrosom. That plant grows very well in my tank. I thought the leaves were supposed to be tipped down like that. Maybe they are not, I'm not sure.

In terms of potassium. 
I dose per EI with 1/8 tsp Potassium Nitrate (KNO3), 1/32 tsp Mono Potassium Phosphate (KH2PO4), 1/32 tsp Potassium Sulfate (K2SO4)

Like CA and MG I am surprised I could be lacking in potassium.

All this is definitely a mystery. I search relentlessly for clues on deficiencies and pics that relate to my problems and all the suggestions seem to point to things I am already dosing. Or to CO2 needs to be "adjusted". I hate that suggestion by the way. too much light, too little light....lol

Hopefully the equilibrium and extra iron make a change for the better.

If that doesn't work, maybe I will reduce my lighting strength. Maybe my CO2, even though it's set as high as possible, is just not enough for whatever reason.

iso


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @isonychia (aka Iso),

Ok, not having started dosing yet explains why the new leaves are still 'hooking downward'.

I believe I stated that low light and insufficient potassium are just two of the likely reasons for losing older leaves.

While we are waiting for the results of the Equilibrium dosing let's try to approximate your light intensity. What size tank do you have (physical dimensions)? What light fixture do you have (manufacturer and model)? Is the fixture on the rim of the aquarium or otherwise?


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

One thing to consider... rather than doing a thousand things trying to make particular plants look nice, try some different plants! There are many available which do well in hard water, and Limnophila, Blyxa, Rotala are not among them (I am generalizing, I know...). Try some other plants - Valisnerias, Crypts, Bolbitis, Lagarosiphon, Ceratopteris, there are hundreds which may appreciate what you do for them!

So... rather than changing your lights, ferts, etc, go the other way, and change your plants!


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @*isonychia* (aka Iso),
> 
> Ok, not having started dosing yet explains why the new leaves are still 'hooking downward'.
> 
> ...


My tank is a Mr Aqua 17 gallon.
Dimension: 23.6" wide x 11.8" deep x 14.2" high

Funny you brought up the light. I was, again, toying with the idea of buying a par meter and researching them. I just don't know if I can justify a $350 purchase for the minimal amount I would use it. I have 1 tank. If I had a few tanks and was constantly changing things, I could see needing the par meter and using it repeatedly.

Light is a Current USA 24"-36" Satellite Plus PRO LED.
Fixture is on the rim about 11" from the substrate.
Settings are: R 70%, G 70%, B 70 % White 70%
light schedule: 12:00pm-9:00pm

Here is the par data from Current's site. It says 103 par at 12" 
Of course they don't give you the RGBW intensity settings with this chart. I assume they measured it with all channels set at 100.
https://current-usa.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Satellite-LED-PAR.pdf

I originally, a few years ago, had some confusions when I was setting the RGBW intensities. Looking back at my posts and my notes, at one point I had the settings like this: R 100%, G 100%, B 100%, W 27%.

iso


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Wasserpest said:


> One thing to consider... rather than doing a thousand things trying to make particular plants look nice, try some different plants! There are many available which do well in hard water, and Limnophila, Blyxa, Rotala are not among them (I am generalizing, I know...). Try some other plants - Valisnerias, Crypts, Bolbitis, Lagarosiphon, Ceratopteris, there are hundreds which may appreciate what you do for them!
> 
> So... rather than changing your lights, ferts, etc, go the other way, and change your plants!


Wasserpest, thanks for the info. I totally understand your suggestions. I guess I just hate giving up.

I did consider changing things ups a bit. I love blyxa J. but I could never get it to survive in my tank. I ordered it a few times from some member here. It constantly uprooted itself. I tried a bunch of things, deeply burying it, putting little rocks on top of it to keep it down until it rooted, not disturbing it, etc. There were a few times it started doing ok. I don't know why. But it eventually failed, and uprooted itself and I could never get it to take again. Same with the LA. I love the look of the plant. But it hates my tank for whatever reason.
Fissidens F, cant keep the algae/mulm off it. Mini pellia, had a few good growth spurts, but it always eventually failed. It always got algae on it, got smothered and couldn't recoup. Now, java moss, sure no problem with that...LOL

Thing is, I always seem to have the same problem with certain types of plants. Star grass for instance. It looks great for a while, but the bottoms always get leggy, spots/marks on the leaves or the leaves melt. It reacts the same way that LA does. Both are plants with fine longer leaves.

Bocapa monnieri. This plant thrives in my tank. But the leaves are stout and thick, not thin like the SG or LA.

iso


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Yep, been there, done that. Have very hard water myself, although not as extreme of a GH as yours. I too tried many many plant which prefer soft water, and failed. But luckily there are many many others that do just great.
You can start cutting your water with RO/DI and do all of that complicated stuff. Or work with what you have and find plants that work well under your conditions. Good luck!


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Wasserpest said:


> Yep, been there, done that. Have very hard water myself, although not as extreme of a GH as yours. I too tried many many plant which prefer soft water, and failed. But luckily there are many many others that do just great.
> You can start cutting your water with RO/DI and do all of that complicated stuff. Or work with what you have and find plants that work well under your conditions. Good luck!


Where did you find lists of plants that don't do well in hard water. I researched this and only saw a few mentioned. Tonina being one. Maybe there is no list. Maybe it's not well documented. But I thought all the plants I chose did not have mention of hard water intolerance. I'm not saying your wrong. It's just a bit frustrating when I could not find mention of hard water being a problem. I researched it extensively trying to find evidence that it is my water that is the problem. Searches for "high GH/KH" "hard water planted tank" etc on various forums. Many people posted their KH/GH values very similar to mine and reported zero issues.
Maybe they have their parameters set differently than mine, but no mention of high GH and KH causing problems, slow growth, poor environments for plants etc. Maybe I'll post some links from this site with responses that I read about it.

iso


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

isonychia said:


> My tank is a Mr Aqua 17 gallon.
> Dimension: 23.6" wide x 11.8" deep x 14.2" high
> 
> Funny you brought up the light. I was, again, toying with the idea of buying a par meter and researching them. I just don't know if I can justify a $350 purchase for the minimal amount I would use it. I have 1 tank. If I had a few tanks and was constantly changing things, I could see needing the par meter and using it repeatedly.
> ...



Hi @isonychia (aka Iso),

Based upon your information you probably have +/- [email protected] or a little more. I have a 30 gallon (36" long) with a Fluval F&P 2.0 on it and I recently turned it down to [email protected] because my stem plants and cryptocorynes had their stems and leaves pretty much laying flat on the substrate with [email protected]+ where it was previously. The plants are now responding, stems are becoming more upright and the cryptocoryne leaves are lifting off the substrate. I run a 4.5 hour split photoperiod 2 hr + 2.5 hr. After we see the resulting of increasing the Ca, Mg, and K with the Equilibrium you may want to see how the plants respond to a change in photoperiod.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

isonychia said:


> Where did you find lists of plants that don't do well in hard water. I researched this and only saw a few mentioned. Tonina being one. Maybe there is no list. Maybe it's not well documented. But I thought all the plants I chose did not have mention of hard water intolerance. I'm not saying your wrong. It's just a bit frustrating when I could not find mention of hard water being a problem. I researched it extensively trying to find evidence that it is my water that is the problem. Searches for "high GH/KH" "hard water planted tank" etc on various forums. Many people posted their KH/GH values very similar to mine and reported zero issues.
> Maybe they have their parameters set differently than mine, but no mention of high GH and KH causing problems, slow growth, poor environments for plants etc. Maybe I'll post some links from this site with responses that I read about it.
> 
> iso


I don't have a list either, although there are books (Kasselmann etc) which can be helpful. In the end there are many factors which influence whether a particular variety grows in your tank or not, and what I have done is something called "trial and error" :nerd: mostly error, heh. Mixed plant packages give you a fairly inexpensive opportunity to try a bunch of different plants.
Like I said, try some "hard to kill" plants like Vallisneria, Crypt wendtii, Hygro difformis, Mosses, etc and see how they are doing. If nothing grows well in your tank, then you know there is a basic problem that needs to be addressed. Otherwise, there may just be a number of finicky plants that prefer a different set of conditions.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @*isonychia* (aka Iso),
> 
> Based upon your information you probably have +/- [email protected] or a little more. I have a 30 gallon (36" long) with a Fluval F&P 2.0 on it and I recently turned it down to [email protected] because my stem plants and cryptocorynes had their stems and leaves pretty much laying flat on the substrate with [email protected]+ where it was previously. The plants are now responding, stems are becoming more upright and the cryptocoryne leaves are lifting off the substrate. I run a 4.5 hour split photoperiod 2 hr + 2.5 hr. After we see the resulting of increasing the Ca, Mg, and K with the Equilibrium you may want to see how the plants respond to a change in photoperiod.


Hi Seattle,

I'm just posting some more photos and an update. I have dosed the Equilibrium for a week. I just did a second water change today and added a second dose of Equilibrium. (about 3/4 of a tsp.) I have also been dosing 1/8 tsp of the chelated iron from GLA instead of the normal 1/32 tsp for the past 12 days.

First, here is a photo I took of my Rotala SP greens LOWER stems. (higher res) Maybe this will help with the problems my tank experiences. These stems are not shaded by other stems. They are sparse in the tank. The black is not BBA. There are some threads of BBA here and there but it does not account for the overall darkness on the edges. The upper half of these stems are green and look healthy. This type of deficiency also affects Limnophilia and Star Grasses lower stems. They don't look exactly the same but they all experience various forms and levels of unhealthy lower leaves. The LA is the most affected. The leaves totally fall off and melt on the LA.











Here is a time lapse of the S. Repens.
There seems to be some improvement.
Wondering what the overall thoughts are?


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @isonychia (aka Iso),

As for the lower leaves or the Rotala that appears to be caused by a potassium deficiency; however remember that leaves that were existing prior to the dosing will not change (the damage has been done). It is the new leaves that we are watching and evaluating both as they emerge and as they mature. The Seachem Equilibrium contains sufficient potassium (K) such that as these new leaves emerge and mature the conditions you are seeing now should not re-occur.

It's only been a week but the newer leaves do appear to be larger, straighter, and have better color. Continue the current dosing level and let's see how they look in another week.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @*isonychia* (aka Iso),
> 
> As for the lower leaves or the Rotala that appears to be caused by a potassium deficiency; however remember that leaves that were existing prior to the dosing will not change (the damage has been done). It is the new leaves that we are watching and evaluating both as they emerge and as they mature. The Seachem Equilibrium contains sufficient potassium (K) such that as these new leaves emerge and mature the conditions you are seeing now should not re-occur.
> 
> It's only been a week but the newer leaves do appear to be larger, straighter, and have better color. Continue the current dosing level and let's see how they look in another week.



Thanks Seattle,

I was thinking I should top and replant some of the rotala. Then watch those stems and see if the lower leaf problems occur with the newly planted ones.
I only have 2 stems left of the LA. One is rather large. Maybe I should do the same with that. Get rid of the bottom portion that has lost it's leaves, replant the top and watch that stem to see if it continues to lose the bottom growth?


Also, originally I thought the equilibrium was being dosed for a possible CA/MG deficiency. When I read the ingredients I noticed it also had a lot of potassium. Just curious. What is the difference between adding the Equilibrium and simply dosing a lot more of the KNO3, KH2PO4 , K2SO4. I know equilibrium has CA and MG and other things. Was it simply chosen because it has CA and MG or is it because the potassium is in a different form than KNO3, KH2PO4 , K2SO4? Similar to how there are different forms of the iron?

Sorry for all the questions.

iso


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @isonychia (aka Iso),

Yes, we are dosing Seachem Equilibrium because of a suspected calcium and possible magnesium deficiency. It not only contains those two ingredients but potassium, manganese, and iron as well. Equilibrium contains the calcium and magnesium is a ratio that is considered appropriate for planted tanks, in the 3:1 - 4:1 range. You wouldn't want to dose extra KNO3 or KH2PO4 because both of those could cause algae issues is dosed in excess.

If possible, please do not trim the stems unless they are reaching the surface because they provide a good reference as to what was happening before you started dosing the Equilibrium.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @*isonychia* (aka Iso),
> 
> Yes, we are dosing Seachem Equilibrium because of a suspected calcium and possible magnesium deficiency. It not only contains those two ingredients but potassium, manganese, and iron as well. Equilibrium contains the calcium and magnesium is a ratio that is considered appropriate for planted tanks, in the 3:1 - 4:1 range. You wouldn't want to dose extra KNO3 or KH2PO4 because both of those could cause algae issues is dosed in excess.
> 
> If possible, please do not trim the stems unless they are reaching the surface because they provide a good reference as to what was happening before you started dosing the Equilibrium.


I had to trim the stems of the Limnophila Aromatica. They were about 10" tall and popping the surface. The bottom 5" were bare the top was healthier but the leaves started accumulating green hair algae/staghorn.
I replanted the tops and left some of the bare stems as they had some small shoots at the base.

Here is a new time lapse of the S. Repens.
My opinion is I am getting some growth, although it seems very slow, but the tips of the growth still turn yellow/light green. It seems the bigger and older it gets, it eventually gets more yellow and eventually deteriorates. 
Sometimes the colors look different based on how the camera takes the shot. But I think they are pretty accurate. It's also kind of difficult to "track" which leaves are the same in each shot for comparison.
Just a note: The varying amounts the leaves are turned down I think are based on when I take the photo. I usually take them in the morning when I turn the lights on (manually) for the photo. I think by the time I get home the leaves are turned up. I have to double check that. 








Here is a single closeup of the S. Repens from March 16. I am using the same plant for all these shots for consistency.











Here is a shot of a new sprout of LA. I am almost positive it's a new sprout and not a top I planted. I am skeptical because I never remember sprouts getting that thick before. Maybe it's not a good judge of overall plant health since I cant be sure if it's a new sprout or old replanted top growth. But you can see the edges are transparent. Maybe I should ignore it as a false lead. Either way, if it is a new sprout or old, it should not be clear (melting?) on the leaf edge.










iso


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @isonychia (aka Iso),

The abnormal green of the leaf margins of the Ludwigia aromatica indicate more calcium is needed. Have you checked the dGH lately...has it dropped?


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @*isonychia* (aka Iso),
> 
> The abnormal green of the leaf margins of the Ludwigia aromatica indicate more calcium is needed. Have you checked the dGH lately...has it dropped?


Hi Seattle,

I have not checked the GH lately. I will do that tonight.

I am also going to call the water dept and see if they can give me the levels of CA and MG. They don't list them on the link I have.

Do you think it's too early to make a second change and reduce the lighting strength? It seems, with what I consider slow plant growth, that reducing the light strength would be counter productive. But part of me thinks that somehow the light is too strong for the amount of CO2 in the water. Even though I am just at the fringe of fish distress on the needle valve, maybe that doesn't really mean anything. Maybe the light is just too strong for the amount of CO2 I can safely inject. Maybe the max level of CO2 based on fish response is somehow not enough for the plants based on my light strength or it's for some reason not being used fully by the plants. Maybe that imbalance somehow causes plants to NOT GROW WELL? I do have a medium amount of hair/staghorn algae. So increasing the strength seems it would just cause more algae. I am not confident it will increase plant growth and health. It seems it should, but I don't think it works that simply.

I always thought injecting CO2 to the max (under fish distress) was the key, that was the universal measurement of "max". Get CO2 to it's max and everything else should be easy and not cause problems. The only thing to be concerned with was too much light causing algae. I know we almost always have some. I was only concerned with the amount when it blocked out light or became unsightly. I thought plant health was not necessarily affected by algae. They can coexist. It was only when, for instance, the algae got so thick that it overtook Monte Carlo and shaded it from the light or became unsightly. Or LA leaves were covered with enough BBA that it affected the plants ability to thrive.

It seems I am missing something...LOL

iso


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

isonychia said:


> Hi Seattle,
> 
> I have not checked the GH lately. I will do that tonight.
> 
> ...


Hi Iso,

My Cryptocoryne growth improved when I dropped the PAR in my 30 gallon tank from [email protected] to [email protected] but before we do that lets try dealing with the calcium and iron. 

Currently you are dosing 1/32 teaspoon CSM+B and 1/32 teaspoon chelated iron. Continue the CSM+B at your current dosing level (not so much for the EDTA chelated iron but for the other micro-nutrients) but discontinue the chelated iron and dose 1/4 teaspoon of the Seachem Flourish instead....possibly the 7.6 pH may be effecting iron uptake more than I originally thought. Also, add two additional teaspoons of Equilibrium to the tank, but keep the amount you dose during water changes at 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons of new water.

What is your current photoperiod and is the fixture on a timer?


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Iso,
> 
> My Cryptocoryne growth improved when I dropped the PAR in my 30 gallon tank from [email protected] to [email protected] but before we do that lets try dealing with the calcium and iron.
> 
> ...


Photo period 1pm-8pm and it is on a timer.
Co2 is on 2 hours before lights and off at lights off.

I assume you mean Seachem Flourish IRON. Not just Seachem Flourish instead of the chelated iron, correct?

Thanks
iso


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

isonychia said:


> Photo period 1pm-8pm and it is on a timer.
> Co2 is on 2 hours before lights and off at lights off.
> 
> I assume you mean Seachem Flourish IRON. Not just Seachem Flourish instead of the chelated iron, correct?
> ...


Hi iso,

Yes, Flourish Iron to replace chelated iron. If you would like cut the photoperiod down by 1 hour (either start later or stop sooner) I would have no issue with that.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi iso,
> 
> Yes, Flourish Iron to replace chelated iron. If you would like cut the photoperiod down by 1 hour (either start later or stop sooner) I would have no issue with that.



Thanks Seattle.

I reduced the photo period by an hour.
Today was my micro day, so I dosed CSM+B and 1/4tsp of Flourish Iron, skipped the Iron Chelate. I did not add the Equilibrium. I figured it is best to add it tomorrow with my macros.
*
A note: I always dose at around 8:00AM. (Dry dose into a cup with tank water, stir then add to tank) 
My lights turn on at 1:00pm. I mention it because I don't know if the availability of the Ferrous Gluconate comes into play in this situation. I guess the FG is easily available to plants but precipitates faster and is not as stable as a chelated Iron and is not available as long for the plants to utilize? I assume it will still be available to the plants in 5 hours?*

My GH and KH are the following:

*FROM TANK*
KH: 9dKH
GH: 27dGH

*FROM TAP*
KH: 7dKH
GH: 22dGH

iso


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Just updating the thread.

I have continued to does the Equilibrium and the Flourish.

I feel like I should have seen better results by now.

Here is the latest photo of the S. Repens.









I think I need to move on to something different. Maybe I'm jumping the gun but it has been a month.

I just reduced my lighting to 60% strength across the RGBW channels. I had it at 70. I don't have a lot of algae, but it is enough to be problematic to the smaller stems. Mostly green hair algae, GSA on the glass and some random tuffs of BBA on the rocks. Plus I got some mini pellia, and I don't want it getting choked out by green hair algae. It has happened before and I want to try and give it a chance this time. I already see some GHA on it. I love the look of mini pellia but I can never keep the GHA off of it. I even use a turkey baster to flush it of any detritus to help.

Besides reducing the lighting I don't know what else to do. 
I read the repetitive "it's a CO2" problem, but besides reducing the lighting I don't know how else to "dial it in".
If I'm missing something with "dialing in" CO2 I am all ears.

Maybe it's my KH/water. As I said before, I wanted to tackle that last. It will require me going to the aquarium store and buying RO to test the theory and doing that for a few weeks. 

iso


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

isonychia said:


> Just updating the thread.
> 
> I have continued to does the Equilibrium and the Flourish.
> 
> ...


Hi iso,

I agree, typically we should see much more improvement after over 4 weeks if the only issue was Ca/Mg/K related. I will say comparing the 2/28 picture to the most recent picture that the side shoot of S. repens on the left looks healthier and I do see healthy new growth on the Ludwigia (?) stems in the picture. Because excesses of one metal cation (Ca+, Mg+, K+) can impede the uptake of the other metal cations when we deal with a high dGH there is likely an excess of one (if not several) cations is present.

The other thing to consider is Staurogyne repens is indigenous to the Amazon basin and very soft, acidic water. It could be that this species is unable to adapted to the water conditions in your area; therefor either finding a species better suited to higher hardness levels or reducing the hardness in your tank may be the only options.


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

Are you dry dosing the CSM+B or do you premix a bottle. and use that bottle for the entire week. The reason I ask this is that as you read earlier CSM+B looses effectiveness above a PH of 6.5. If you mix it in a bottle of at water at above PH of 7 most of the CSM may have degraded and is no longer availabe to plants. 

Another factor is the PH of your tank water with CO2 many people are near a PH of 6 which is good for CSM+B. However if your PH is above 6.5 that is not good. Another thing many people do is to only run CO2 when the lights are on. When the lights are off CO2 turns off and then the PH will increase overnight untils the lights and CO2 come back on. You might want to try leaving your CO2 on 24 hours for a more stable tank PH.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi iso,
> 
> I agree, typically we should see much more improvement after over 4 weeks if the only issue was Ca/Mg/K related. I will say comparing the 2/28 picture to the most recent picture that the side shoot of S. repens on the left looks healthier and I do see healthy new growth on the Ludwigia (?) stems in the picture. Because excesses of one metal cation (Ca+, Mg+, K+) can impede the uptake of the other metal cations when we deal with a high dGH there is likely an excess of one (if not several) cations is present.
> 
> The other thing to consider is Staurogyne repens is indigenous to the Amazon basin and very soft, acidic water. It could be that this species is unable to adapted to the water conditions in your area; therefor either finding a species better suited to higher hardness levels or reducing the hardness in your tank may be the only options.



Thanks Seattle,

I think I am going to chase CO2 again. Maybe from a different angle. Maybe try adding better surface agitation and read up on the CO2/O2 equilibrium thing. If that doesn't work along with the less light, I will drag my ass to the aquarium store and purchase some RO water and try that for 3 weeks.

I can do a search, but can you suggest a ratio of tap to RO? As a reminder my KH is 9 and my GH is 22. I think I need to be careful how I add the RO to not shock the fish with the change in water parameters, is that correct?

iso


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Surf said:


> Are you dry dosing the CSM+B or do you premix a bottle. and use that bottle for the entire week. The reason I ask this is that as you read earlier CSM+B looses effectiveness above a PH of 6.5. If you mix it in a bottle of at water at above PH of 7 most of the CSM may have degraded and is no longer availabe to plants.
> 
> Another factor is the PH of your tank water with CO2 many people are near a PH of 6 which is good for CSM+B. However if your PH is above 6.5 that is not good. Another thing many people do is to only run CO2 when the lights are on. When the lights are off CO2 turns off and then the PH will increase overnight untils the lights and CO2 come back on. You might want to try leaving your CO2 on 24 hours for a more stable tank PH.


Hi Surf,

I sometimes add the the micros dry directly to the tank, right by the powerhead or sometimes I dry dose into a cup with tap or tank water stir it up then add directly to the tank. Macros I add dry in a cup with tank or tap water, mix it up then dose it into the tank. For the past month, I have been dosing al ferts dry into a cup and mixing with tap/tank water then adding instead of adding dry directly into the tank. All the dosing happens in the morning before co2 or lights turn on. I did a test in 2015 at my old place which is about the same water source.
PH: 7.6 at 6:30am (CO2 off)
PH: 6.8 at 8:45pm (CO2 on for 10 hours)

I don't have a PH pen, just the API PH liquid test. So the PH readings are only as accurate as I could guess based on the color chart system.

I'm not sure if that helps.

iso


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

isonychia said:


> Thanks Seattle,
> 
> I think I am going to chase CO2 again. Maybe from a different angle. Maybe try adding better surface agitation and read up on the CO2/O2 equilibrium thing. If that doesn't work along with the less light, I will drag my ass to the aquarium store and purchase some RO water and try that for 3 weeks.
> 
> ...


Hi Iso,

I would gradually drop both dKH and dGH by 50% and see how your plants respond.


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

I looked at your dosing before equilibrium and extra iron and KSO4.

1/8 KNO3 =8.1ppm NO3
1/32KH2PO4= 1.9ppm PO4
1/32 K2SO4= O.57ppm SO4.

Given your hard water it is very unlikely you are short on any of your macros with the very slow growth you have. That could change when the problem is fixed and plants start to consume more nutrients. Based on the above I think it is likely you have a micro nutrient issue.

For your 1/32 CSM+B
Fe 0.177ppm 
B o.031ppm
Mn 0.051ppm
Zn 0.01ppm
Cu 0.003ppm
Mo 0.002ppm

Not dosed but essential for plants Ni, Cl,Ca, Mg. 

Ni is only needed at about 0.001 or 0.002. Your tap water and fish food probably has enough. Most people don't dose Nickel and still get good plant growth so there is no need to dose it. You water report shows a lot of Chlorides in your water So Cl is probably sufficient. Ca and Mg are sufficient per the information from your water utility. Generally plants need more Cu, and Zn than the CSM+B provides. But most homes have copper pipes which adds a lot of copper. My tap water has 0.05ppm of copper in it. Your hard water probably has enough zinc but we are just guessing. 

Overall based on what we know of your water and your dosing in my opinionyour plants should be growing. 



> PH: 7.6 at 6:30am (CO2 off)
> PH: 6.8 at 8:45pm (CO2 on for 10 hours)
> 
> I don't have a PH pen, just the API PH liquid test. So the PH readings are only as accurate as I could guess based on the color chart system.


While PH pens are convenient they must be calibrated and properly maintained to be accurate. At this point your API test should be accurate enough for diagnosing the problem. However the reading above are all above 6.5. 

In my opinion and experience your PH is too high for CSM+B resulting in a significant loss of micro nutrients in CSM. I tried using my CSM in low tech (No CO2) tank with a PH generally between 6.5 and 7. I had no plant growth with CSM in this PH range. 

Basically your hard water and elevated KH are keeping your PH too high. I think you should proceed with reducing your GH and KH by adding RO water. Rather than giving your a target mix or RO and tap I am suggesting you gradually reduce your GH and KH until you PH drops down to 6 with CO2 on. I also think you should leave your CO2 on 24 hours a day to keep it lower than it is now. Try to keep it between 6 and 6.5 for most of the day.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Surf said:


> I looked at your dosing before equilibrium and extra iron and KSO4.
> 
> 1/8 KNO3 =8.1ppm NO3
> 1/32KH2PO4= 1.9ppm PO4
> ...



Thanks for all the info Surf.

My tank is 17 gallons. My guess with the hardscape is maybe there's 15 gallons of water in the tank. I am wondering how to add the RO or spring water. I assume removing say 5 gallons of my tank water and simply pouring in 5 gallons of RO or spring water is a bad idea? Or will that be ok and not shock the fish or plants?

I see you are suggesting keeping the CO2 on for 24 hours. Are you suggesting that as a first test instead of going the RO route and see how plants react? I assume I would have to do that for at least 2 weeks.

Maybe the RO route is easier and less stressful for the fish instead of a 24 hour CO2 period.

iso


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## cryptopi (Jan 5, 2018)

Hi Iso,
I’m having the similar problem with my S. Repens. I have been reading and following your post, would you mind share with us the status of your tank? I’m sure many others here will benefit from it. Thanks.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

cryptopi said:


> Hi Iso,
> I’m having the similar problem with my S. Repens. I have been reading and following your post, would you mind share with us the status of your tank? I’m sure many others here will benefit from it. Thanks.


I tried distilled water for about 4 weeks with no visual improvement. 50/50 mix distilled/tap.
So I decided to stop that and continued with straight tap.
Current status of the tank is the same. I removed all the S. Repens and planted new ones from my emersed grow-out tank.

I would say the tank is overall in the same condition as always. The addition of the new S. Repens will probably cause a negative as it will take time for the emersed growth to transition/melt off until submersed growth takes over. This will cause them to get green hair algae and black dust algae...great!

Random amounts of various algae, GHA, GSP, BDA. Plants grow slow but just don't flourish.
Rotala sp green and S. Repens continues to show browning leaf edges/chlorosis. 
The Rotala has healthy sections like most plants, but it also has unhealthy sections.
I only have about 3 tiny stems of L Aromatica left. They just sit there, don't grow and slowly get more and more algae on them.

I put in a few rocks covered in mini pellia. The GHA smothered those. Ummm what else...

I dose the tank, do my water changes, clean and prune but thats about it. It's my holding pattern until I get the energy back to try and troubleshoot it further. Honestly it's very annoying to do all the troubleshooting and work involved and not get the satisfaction/positive reinforcement of a healthy all GREEN tank. Instead I stare at a tank that just struggles.

I continue to read through various threads here and on other sites to see if anyone with similar conditions and problems as me sparks a clue as to what is going on.

So that is where I am at.

Sorry for the late response but after the distilled water didn't work I got frustrated and stopped trying to troubleshoot/update this thread.

iso


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

I was just looking back through the thread and noticed this comment on page 1. 



> I spoke to the town water dept and they told me my calcium levels are 54ppm and Magnesium is 35ppm. My GH 25 and KH 9.


It is inconsistant with hard water! 54ppm Ca and 35ppm Mg is Soft Water (GH of 5)! I think we all missed that. Your tank GH and KH is however very hard. At the time you were dosing standard EI with no GH boster.

I can only think of the following that would cause this.

Insufficien water changes but you state 50% once a week. So it is not your water changes.

You are on a private well water instead of city water. Or the water utility messed up and gave you incorrect information for your location.

Bad GH test kit. You might want to try another kit to exclude this.

Something in the tank is increasing your GH. Since you are running CO2 it is possible the CO2 is reacting with something in the tank such as a rock causing the release of materials that will increase your GH.

While a high GH is typically caused by high Calcium or magnesium. the GH test can also detect Barium, Strontium, Beryllium and some transition metals. Normally these are not prescient at sufficient levels to cause problems. However in acidic water they may dissolve. They would also impact your PH and possibly CO2 availability. 

Since you have decorative rocks in your tank, I would try removing those and doing several water changes in a week to reduce contaminates. If that doesn't work it could be something in your substrate. What can you tell use about the rocks and substrate in your tank?


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Surf said:


> I was just looking back through the thread and noticed this comment on page 1.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Surf,

I haven't visited often and just saw your post.

The rocks in my tank are black lava rock. Substrate is Eco-Complete.

I am definitely on city water. I can almost guarantee we have hard water. It's a known fact in the towns around me. There is always hard water build up and people try and combat that with water softeners. I have tested my water and the water in the next town i used to live in and the results are about the same.

The ranges are:
KH: 9-14
GH: 20-28

The calcium and Magnesium levels are about the same as the last town I lived in (next town over, very similar water source, just different wells)

I am not sure what levels of CA and MG are consistent with "hard water". If the levels 54ppm Ca and 35ppm Mg are not high enough to create the GH I am reporting I am not sure why the GH is so high.

I can test my tap again and report back. The test kit is newer. I bought a newer one because of concern over my results.

Here is a recent depressing pic of some newer LA (dwarf/small version) I purchased from a member here. Planted about 3 weeks ago. They all continue to do the same thing. Lose lower leaves. Also, look at the stem of the LA. No roots. I also purchased some more Blyxa, and again, it does not send out roots. It eventually floats out of the substrate. I tried the plant before with the same results. It will not root and stay in the substrate. I know it can have problems like that, but why no roots?

In the past I have tried root tabs under these plants. No change.









The Rotala Sp Green, will get tall, but I cant get them to become dense. Too many fail at the bottoms and they don't grow fast enough to trim and replant. 

Overall the tank just doesn't grow fast or the plants grow so slow they fail or lose leaves at the bottom etc.

2 things I noticed. For some reason my monte carlo has decided to wake up a LITTLE and spread a little. Also my mini pellia (2 small rocks worth) has somehow stopped getting green hair algae on it and become a little denser. But one rock will not attach. It is growing on itself but not attaching to the rock. I bough a small clump in march 2018. It's barely grown since then. Thats the type of environment I'm dealing with. There is no progress.

I'm trying to find different plants to put in the tank since I am out of ideas as to why I cant keep these. I really don't feel like I should have to give up on Blyxa, LA, Rotala Sp Green, mini pellia, S. repens, fissidens fontanus...Thats just too many varieties for it to be a problem of "difficult" plants or "plants that don't like hard water". It has to be something else. I just cant find the problem. I almost considered changing over to a palludarium type tank. Something different since the whole fully submersed setup isn't working for me and not showing any progress for all the detective work. Or going with a buce type tank since I have a good bunch of anubias petite already in this tank. Maybe low light.

iso


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Just another update.

I just planted a whole bunch of new plants. (about 3 weeks ago)

Most are doing well but some are still showing the lower leaf loss.

Here is a new batch, from a different member than the last batch, of Limnophila Aromatica.

Like the previous batch, they are still losing lower leaves. You can see the holes in the lower leaves and the yellowing. Eventually they fall off. It is not a dense patch of stems.

I'm not going to get into the other plants I added because it will just muddy the waters.

Does this pic help rule out anything. I figured thats easier than trying to find the problem.

FYI: I'm having problems with the image uploaded, so I cant upload a new image at the correct orientation.
iso


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## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

My bet is on high Mg blocking uptake of K. Holes and shedding of leaves is a common symptom of K deficiency. Also, @Surf miscalculated your dGH based on Ca and Mg. Your actual dGH is 15.6 German degrees.

Personally, I would cut your water with RO and add some Equilibrium which will reduce Mg and add K (plus get Ca a little more inline with Mg).

Also, how is the flow of CO2 in that location? L. Aromatica hates getting CO2 and then not getting it


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

natemcnutty said:


> My bet is on high Mg blocking uptake of K. Holes and shedding of leaves is a common symptom of K deficiency. Also, @Surf miscalculated your dGH based on Ca and Mg. Your actual dGH is 15.6 German degrees.
> 
> Personally, I would cut your water with RO and add some Equilibrium which will reduce Mg and add K (plus get Ca a little more inline with Mg).
> 
> Also, how is the flow of CO2 in that location? L. Aromatica hates getting CO2 and then not getting it



Nate,

Thanks for the info.

I tried distilled/tap water 50/50 with Equilibrium for a month and I didn't notice any difference.

Flow of CO2 is fine in that location. I even moved the DC to that location to verify as well as all locations and it is the same color, yellow/green. I cant increase CO2 anymore. Its right at fish distress. Unless I resort to trying to force it by adding more O2. I don't feel like I should have to do that. I tried less light and max light. No difference. I don't know what my PAR is. I never measured it. I go by what the manufacturer specs out. But I had it at max and there was no difference. I even doubled the macro dosage for a few weeks and didn't notice any difference.

I have a lot of new plants in the tank.
The Limnophlia Aromatica and the NEW addition Mayaca Fluviatilis are exhibiting the same lower leaf loss.

Stargrass is fine, Mini Pellia, Monte Carlo, Micranthemum Umbrosom, assorted mosses are all fine. Some various rotalas are mostly unaffected. The smaller finer leaved rotalas (don't remember the names) don't do as well as the larger leaved ones.

Here is a pic of the Mayaca Fluviatilis. I doubt it will help...










iso


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Just a note.

In doing the research on high KH and GH why do I see it noted that high GH or KH has no affect on nutrient uptake or plant growth ASIDE from a FEW species?

I don't know if I can put links to other planted tank sites here, but if I can I would love to do so to illustrate my point. There is one such post with extremely GH and KH levels as mine and the poster has a GROVE of LA.

Thanks,
iso


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Hi @isonychia,

This thread is over a year old and the plants still do not grow. Everybody is out of ideas but you are still hanging in - kudos for that.
You reached out to me and I partially replied and I want to follow up on your questions in a public forum, for at least some level of peer review.

I have read the entire thread and there is some information that I do not see. What would help me is the following:
- a picture of the entire tank
- a picture of the equipment, ideally showing light, filtration, and the co2 set-up
- levels of N and P before a water change
- levels of N and P before the next macro dosage (2 days later, I assume)
Thanks!

Quick comments on the two plants you are most interested in:
- S. repens - I have tried twice and the plants lasted about 3 months before diying out
- lower leaves on L. aromatica - what you are seeing I see a lot in my own tanks. For that plant to retain its lower leaves the light has to hit the plant from most directions. This is where the light spread and shading comes into play. I personally do not grow the best L. aromatica but I sold a lot of it, some from the same tank as yours and with lower light. Interestingly enough, I find L. aromatica 'mini' to be a lot more forgiving, keeping it's lower leaves longer and healthier. And there is a hint in that - that plant is much smaller in diameter, without that huge umbrella of the regular L. aromatica on top. If that is one of the reasons, then why a similar plant, L. Cuba, hangs on to its leaves? I'll leave this question open-ended for now.

I am looking forward to continue this conversation.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

OVT said:


> Hi @isonychia,
> 
> This thread is over a year old and the plants still do not grow. Everybody is out of ideas but you are still hanging in - kudos for that.
> You reached out to me and I partially replied and I want to follow up on your questions in a public forum, for at least some level of peer review.
> ...


OVT, thanks for following up.

I will get you the pics as soon as I can. What I may do is take a quick video. That may help show the flow in the tank and also a shot of how much flow is coming out of my spraybar. On the Eheim I have an inline heater and a reactor,so I always wondered if those were reducing my flow both in/out and causing problems. (It's actually problematic connecting all that and trying to retain some sort of order with the tubing, angle, bends etc.) But the tank is so small I cant imagine it's causing a problem with CO2 distribution. I almost considered going back to a in tank CO2 diffuser and heater to test things out but I didn't want to do that for fear it would cause more problems. I also have a small powerhead on the same side as the spraybar, helping to direct the flow to the opposite side (where the LA resides).

Per the LA Mini. I may have actually tried that plant I cant remember.

Per the tests, I will do those as well. I really don't test for the ferts anymore as I never trusted the kits I have so I figured whats the point. I even went and did the calibration process posted here at one point. Either way I will do the tests and take photos of the test tubes and post them for any help they can provide.

Currently things have changed in the tank. It's kind of hard to tell what is happening. At one point it seemed things were doing better but I almost feel like I am teetering on the edge of an increase in algae. The two changes I made were to move the light further to the back of the tank where the LA is AND I bumped up my ferts slightly. Mostly my macros, N, K2SO4 and KH2PO4. The LA stems seem to have started growing more (but still VERY slow) and stopped the leaf loss BUT they now have gotten staghorn on the leaves. (maybe from the light move). 

iso


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Here are some pics.

Ignore the non-existent scape layout. I got tired of trying to create a design only to have plants fail and then having to dismantle the scape design. I wanted to get things figured out and growing properly before I attempt a design.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/HdsUveuMJiLDrfZr9


Video: 





Thanks,
iso


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

I just updated the photo album with a Phosphate and Nitrate test from Sunday PRIOR to a water change and PRIOR to Sundays macros dose. That test is 72 hours since my last macros dose. I don't see any change in color since the prior test on Friday.Last macros dose was Thursday morning.

I removed the stems of LA that had staghorn, did a gravel vac/water change and did a trim and replant of some stems.

I also reduced my light intensity. 
Prior: R-95% G-95% B-95% W-95%
New: R-100% G-100% B-100% W-80%

Thanks,
iso


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Just another update.

After reading through some of my old posts and member comments that things didn't add up, I got curious about my CA and MG levels reported by my water company.

I went out and purchased the API CA test kit and followed the direction from this site on how to adjust it to get a more accurate reading.

Here are the results and I think I understand why people were saying it doesn't add up. Seems my water company was wrong in telling me the levels are CA 54ppm and MG 34ppm. I think they divided the ppm in half.
Tank and tap water are about the same, I tested both.
CA: 120ppm
MG: 75ppm

I tested my GH and KH again.
In the past my GH and KH have hovered about the same. (Gh 20-27, KH 7-9) For some reason my GH seems to have changed and increased and I don't know why. I tested it several times both from my tap and tank and some spring water.

My current reading are:
GH: 34
KH 8

I used my current GH reading to calculate my MG levels not my older readings of 20-27.

What does this mean...I don't know.

I read about the CA:MG ratio ideal of 4:1 or 3:1. I'm not sure that is a proven idea. 
I guess mine is 1.6:1

I have yet to read anything that outlines/proves X levels or ratios of CA and MG cause problems. If it's proven please post the link so I can read up on it.

I have read that a high KH is possibly more the culprit than CA, MG, PH or GH. What is too high I don't know, but I didn't see 7-9Kh as a problem.

A list of the plants that are stunted and don't really grow well that I have or used to have.
• Limnophila Aromatica
• The needle like leaved Rotala's. I purchased a few kinds. I don't remember which. They may be nanjenshan and or bangladesh. The other rotala with the more rounded leaves, I think it's sp. green does grow fairly well. 
• Blyxa Japonica
• S Repens

Just another note. I currently have my light raised to generate a better spread and I reduced the intensity to:
New: R-100% G-100% B-100% W-70%

I don't have too much BBA or GHA problems anymore, but I have not noticed a surge of growth from the problem plants. My LA stems seem to have stopped shedding lower leaves but they have not really grown much. Maybe they have grown 1" in 4 weeks. Overall they are basically stagnant. So my guess is they stopped shedding lower leaves because they are not really growing.

I read up some more on CO2 equilibrium. I tried using the powerhead to generate even more surface agitation and then upping my CO2. I was able to add another tick or two from the needle valve, but after a day or so I saw the fish at the surface so I backed it down to where I have always had it. There is just no way I can think of to add anymore.

iso


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Hi @isonychia,

I've been looking at your pictures for a while and several things caought my eye:

- you have an Eheim Classic, a HOB, and a power head. The plants in the first video are swaying around rather violently. Think what the flow looks like in your current set-up - it's a whirlpool. A single Eheim 2213/2215 can handle that whole tank by itself.

- the Aromatica is planted too densely, the plants seem to be smooshed together. Give them some room.

- what's inside the reactor? It and the hoses and the HOB look mucked up. That and algae and water stains give the tank unkempt look. Planting is relatively dense, you have driftwood and some stones - when was the last time you stuck a gravel cleaner into the substrate? I have a feeling there is a lot of detritus in the substrate that affects thee tank's health.

If you think you can do a thorough cleaning and trimming job then that's where I would start.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

OVT said:


> Hi @isonychia,
> 
> I've been looking at your pictures for a while and several things caought my eye:
> 
> ...


Hi OVT,

I didn't always have the HOB in there. It's a new addition for a few months. I added it because I thought any additional filtration would help. I can easily remove it.

The reason for the powerhead is to create surface agitation. A few weeks ago I tried angling it up more to create more surface agitation and thus tried adding even more CO2. (I recently read the equilibrium info) But even doing so did not allow me to add more CO2. Fished gasped as surface and I place the CO2 injection rate back to where it has always been. I did notice that my drop checker returns to blue much faster with the added O2/agitation. In the past it would never really get to the blue color again after CO2 off. It would mostly stay light green/yellow all the time.

I don't know if I can remove the powerhead. Without it I get a slight film on the water surface.
My spraybar is pointed down at about 45degrees. So I cant use the spraybar to create surface agitation while also injecting the CO2 (using a cerges reactor) down into the water column. If I use the spraybar for both, I would have to angle the spraybar horizontally across the surface thus sending CO2 across the surface rather than down into the tank. *Thoughts on this?*

The only thing in the reactor is a down tube. I never used the pot scrubbers at the bottom of the tube. I didn't see a need for it.

I agree the under tank shot is chaotic. It has always been difficult to manage the angles of the tubing with the inline heater, cerges reactor (it's large) and the filter. Last night I re-did all the equipment. I noticed my inline heater was not heating the water above 70degrees (not sure for how long) and realized it was broken. I received a new hydor inline heater and replaced the old one. It took about 3 hours but I replaced all the old tubing, fixed the loops and connection as best as I could and cleaned all the existing tubing of buildup. I did not clean the filter simply because I just did that not too long ago. I currently have the tank temp set at about 78 degrees. I like to keep it a little cooler as I thought it was beneficial to the Fissidens and mini pellia????

The water stains are the least of my concerns...LOL 

I gravel vac during every water change. Some places I can get well, others the plants are in the way. If you look at the substrate in the front, you can see a layer of detritus deep in the middle. That is difficult to remove as it requires a lot of disruption and I currently am trying to grow HC in the front left side. The entire right side of the tank is new sand. I used to have all eco-complete on the right side. But I wanted to change things up a bit so I added sand on that side. So 1/3 of the tanks substrate is relatively free of detritus. As I said the tank visually is not "scaped". I want to fix the problem before I put energy into making it look nice. It currently requires a lot of work but it's not giving back in terms of progress.

I am surprised you think the LA is too dense. I have seen it very dense, healthy and lush in other photos and that is what I was hoping for. My small section is sparse and not healthy. I do have a few stems of rotala mixed in there in anticipation that I will have to eventually remove the LA and take a loss on this fight.

I am hoping the fix of the tank thermometer and increasing the temperature, with the changes in the lighting, less par R100, G100, B100 W70, raised creating more spread (all things you suggested) will show some signs of improvement. Currently those are the only real changes I made. 

Also, as a test, I replanted 2 stems of LA at the opposite end of the tank in the sand area. I want to see how they react to a different substrate.

Thanks,
iso


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

I'm about done with this process. It really pisses me off.

Certain plants just will not respond to whatever I do.

I don't understand how I can have so many problems with all these species.

*Will not flourish*
Blyxa Japonica
Dwarf baby tears (HC)
S. Repens
Limnophila Aromatica
Mayaca Fluviatilis

*Some of the plants that do somewhat well.*
Fissidens Fontanus (really took off)
Monte Carlo
Mini Pellia
certain varieties of rotala. Nothing with fine needle leaves.
Bacopa Monnieri
Anubia Nana Petite
Star Grass
regular baby tears (HM)

I can only chalk it up to my lighting (strength, duration, spread etc) or my water parameters. Thats the conclusion without any real proof!!!

When I was trying to lower my light levels I noticed the crowns on my rotala sp green started to stunt and get small. As soon as I bumped up the light intensity, within a few days the new growth came back to normal healthy sizes. Thats about the only satisfaction I have had in terms of noticing a major difference in this whole process. Something that actually worked and happened fairly quickly. Something I can say worked for sure.

I replanted some of the LA stems in my sand area as a test to see if a different location would help. Nope. They just sit there and barely grow. The lower leaves slowly die off as the plant struggles to grow taller.

Same EXACT thing with Mayaca Fluviatilis. The lower leaves slowly get smaller and die off. But once it gets tall it seems (not sure) to retain the rest of it's leaves. But it still grows very slow. Once it gets too tall, I trim it, replant and the whole process starts over. Slow growth, lower leaves die off and the plant looks bare on the bottom. But I cant get any sort of density out of it. It just doesn't grow fast enough to propagate and create a "mass" of plants.

iso


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

I am beginning to think that we may have been looking at this the wrong way. With your hard water it is possible you have too much of something in the water that is inhibiting plant growth. From a quick google search too much of any one micro can make it hard for the plant to absorb other nutrients. Or there maybe a element in the water that has a similar effect even though the plant doesn't need it. Either way the end effect is that the plant looks like it is deficient in something but in reality it has too much. 

If that is what is happening the only real solution is to soften the water by mixing in RO water or just switch to 100% RO.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Surf said:


> I am beginning to think that we may have been looking at this the wrong way. With your hard water it is possible you have too much of something in the water that is inhibiting plant growth. From a quick google search too much of any one micro can make it hard for the plant to absorb other nutrients. Or there maybe a element in the water that has a similar effect even though the plant doesn't need it. Either way the end effect is that the plant looks like it is deficient in something but in reality it has too much.
> 
> If that is what is happening the only real solution is to soften the water by mixing in RO water or just switch to 100% RO.


Hi Surf,

Thanks for the info. I added some new photos to the album here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/HdsUveuMJiLDrfZr9

Just the same poor growth and lower leaf loss on a newly relocated LA stem. And the loss of lower leaves still happening to the few remaining Mayaca Fluviatilis stems.

Just some notes. I am writing this quick. And this is not an attack at anyone. I am just frustrated and agitated so again it's not directed at anyone. I am grateful for all the work everyone has done in this hobby. I have done zero in terms of real science or testing. I just do what has been shown to work in this hobby. I am agitated at things that don't seem to make sense for my tank and the general ideas that work for most everyone else.

Here are 3 ideas/fixes that I see mentioned repeatedly on many site that really confuse/agitate me.

1. It's your CO2. Adjust your CO2. Keep tweaking it until it's right. Most people think it's good, but it's not. Get CO2 "dialed" in and things will get better. Better flow throughout the tank, better dissolving methods, more surface agitation.

My response: Dialed in???? WTH does that even mean. For my situation, it's simple. My fish gasp at the surface when I move the needle valve one click above where I have it set. I cant "dial" it in anymore. It's dialed. It's as high as it will go. End of story. My tank is 24" wide. My CO2 can easily get to the other side. This isn't a 120 gallon tank with massive amounts of plants and rocks and mountains and hidden dead spots. I have slight surface agitation. Maybe this helps me dissolve a little more CO2. But I am flirting right on the edge of fish distress, so I cannot add more surface agitation and dissolve even more. It's too risky.

2. You cant have too many nutrients. No such thing. EI is created to take the guessing game out of ferts. It's always enough and relieves people from having to test if they have enough. Test kits are faulty anyway. It may need to be tweaked for high plant mass, thus you may need to add more. But there is no scientific evidence that you can have too much and has never been a detriment to plants.

3. Stop chasing your source water. There really is no need for RO water. There are only a few plants out of the 300 that don't do well in hard water. So unless you want to keep those finicky soft water plants, save yourself the extra work and expense of RO water. Except for a few species, high GH is never a problem. Plants use very little CA/MG as long as you have enough, high GH has never been shown to affect anything. Too high a KH is POSSIBLY a problem, but it's not a definitive problem. But maybe it is. We are not sure.

----Thats all I have right now. I am sure there is more. But I will stop whining for now.


I am currently trying to find posts by others with my same problems. I have found a few where people are suggesting lowering micros or macros etc. People are suggesting as you have, that too much of some things affect the uptake of other things. I have searched on that as well. I cant find anything definitive that say's there are uptake issues when some nutrients are too high. But people are still testing or believe there things that inhibit uptake. If it is the case, then how can excess/enough nutrients been so mainstream for so long. I thought it was a studied and factual thing, even with the varying types of tanks people have kept, different water, types of substrate etc etc. Extremely smart people did the work for me. 


*In the planted tank world, I have found myself here:*
_There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area which we call the Twilight Zone._

I see those tank journals from people that "this is my first planted tank" and I see the progression photos exploding with growth in a months time and they follow the medium light, good co2 and EI dosing routine. I want to smack those people.:eek5: LOL:wink2:

They need to spend some time here:
_There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area which we call the Twilight Zone._

iso


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Also, I rented a par meter to take my light out of the equation.
An Apogee MQ-510

My light is a Current Satellite LED Plus Pro.

I found the light's par is equal to what Current advertises in their specs.

I have my light raised up and it's current par is about 55par at the substrate.

I meant to post about it in another thread in more detail for anyone that wants to know par and distances for that light. I will do that at some point.

If I put it on the rim, I can get about 100 par at the substrate if I need more light.

I assume 55 par is ok for now.

I had it on the rim at one point at full power and I didn't notice any benefits to the faster growers. All I ended up with is an onset of green hair algae on my Fissidens Fontanus and a black/green hard dust like algae on my anubias nana petite.
Since my tank is not really setup properly, I don't have those slower growers place appropriately in a shadier place.

iso


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## houstonreef (Aug 24, 2018)

Surf said:


> I am beginning to think that we may have been looking at this the wrong way. With your hard water it is possible you have too much of something in the water that is inhibiting plant growth. From a quick google search too much of any one micro can make it hard for the plant to absorb other nutrients. Or there maybe a element in the water that has a similar effect even though the plant doesn't need it. Either way the end effect is that the plant looks like it is deficient in something but in reality it has too much.
> 
> If that is what is happening the only real solution is to soften the water by mixing in RO water or just switch to 100% RO.


ISO,

Dont give up. Since you get a small tank, try %100 RO and dose GH and KH booster. 

My tap is hard too but still in the range of plant tank. it gave me some issue when i started up my 115G. I then switched to %100 RO and things got better as i desired.


Best Luck to You.


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