# Starting a planted 75g tank! Advise needed.



## Drummerboy7816 (Jan 25, 2013)

Hi All,

After failing multiple times at planted tanks in the past, I'm currently left with a 75 gallon (47.5 x 18 x 18 in) hard-scape only tank with a large piece of Manzanita wood and some dragon stones that's been running for about 3 years (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ts3lni2pt6bt0kr/Capture.GIF?dl=0). There are a few pieces of Anubias nana in there left, rhizomes still looks good but leaves are not very good looking at the moment (though surprisingly there are new tiny growth coming out of them still!). Most livestock died in the past 2 years, and I'm now left with one x-ray tetra and 2 cory cats.

Biggest thing that I've learned from my failed tank is that I NEED a very low maintenance tank (weekly top-offs as I'm evaporating about 3/4 gallon a day, monthly water changes, no dosing, no Co2, minimal trimming, semi-annual replenishment with root tabs okay). I have too many hobbies, busy job, and most likely starting a family in the next year or so.. as such, I was drawn to the idea of Walstad based natural tanks. 

Here's a visual of the re-scape I had in mind: https://www.dropbox.com/s/gfvyrzka6q6i5nv/Capture 2.GIF?dl=0

Details of my plan so far:

- Substrate: Nature's care organic potting mix with red clay inserts capped with some sort of black sand (black diamond blasting sand seems to be strongly favored as a cap for dirt, but in my area, it's $50 for 50 lbs from amazon, no local dealers in Irvine California). At that price I could go with 50lbs of actual black aquarium plant substrate like flora max or eco-complete.

- Plants: Dwarf Hair grass carpet, Water wisteria most of the background, java ferns surrounding that hill-stone area, crypts and dwarf sagg to accent the edges of branch/hill, floating frogbit to each up any excess nutrients. I think my mistake before with a 20g was that I had all slow growing plants like sagg, anubias, and java fern so that algae also found it's way into my tank with moderate lighting. I also never "packed" my tank at the start with decent speed growing plants, hopefully with lots of water wisteria, DHG and and some frogbit would be fast enough growers to out do algae. 

- Livestock: not sure on this yet, prob more cory cats, x-ray tetras, maybe a betta. Mainly I know I want a good cleaning crew: red cherry shrimp, Malaysian trumpet snails, otts.

- Lighting: Finnex planted + 48" on max setting 8-9 hours a day

- Filter: Fluval 406: Not sure if I should remove the filter media that came with it to only have the cloth filters? I think Walstad method calls for natural balance and not any chemical interference.. suggestions?

- Also have a power head on the oppose corner of the filter output so the water has a nice big circular current going through it.

What do you guys think? Any suggestion/input welcomed!!

Bump: Oh, also was thinking about dry starting (DSM) the DHG since I'm not going to have CO2, but I've heard mix things about that as DHG is still a pretty slow grower under DSM so I might be dry starting for a while.. and I heard it could die off once submerged?


----------



## ursamajor (Oct 6, 2015)

Have you been over to the Barr Report? He has some great advice about non-CO2 tanks.

One thing he emphasizes over and over again as being key to success is light! Low light, with the expectation of slow growth, is key to success in a non-CO2 tank. My experience with Finnex lights is they put out more light than I expect, but I've only ever run smaller tanks. I don't know what the PAR would be in your tank - it might be fine. Rotala Butterfly has a calculator for estimating your light levels:

https://rotalabutterfly.com/light-calculator.php

A dry start might be a good idea. It would probably help your soil cycle faster, resulting in less nutrients like ammonia leeching into the water column when you do flood the tank.


----------



## bigbadjon (Aug 6, 2015)

If low maintence is you goal I would keep some things in mind. First I would use an inert substrate if water changes are going to be infrequent, I would use some flourite red and mix it with gravel or sand. You should also keep the substate thin, like an inch in the front and no more than 2 in the back. Pack the tank with slow growing plants like crypts that will extensively root in the shollow substrate. I would avoid root tabs. This will ensure aerated subsrate and avoid many algae issues. Forget carpeting plants as you will require extensive vacuuming with these. Run the lights on lower powers for about 10 hours a day. Get an all in one fertilizer and dose once a week or so. Run the tank at low nitrates to avoid algae. When you do your water change do a big one, like 80%, and trim any damaged leaves or leaves showing algae or deformity.
I understand this is a bit different advice than most people expect but weigh this with what most people are told and how many people fail with planted tanks.


----------



## Drummerboy7816 (Jan 25, 2013)

ursamajor said:


> Have you been over to the Barr Report? He has some great advice about non-CO2 tanks.
> 
> One thing he emphasizes over and over again as being key to success is light! Low light, with the expectation of slow growth, is key to success in a non-CO2 tank. My experience with Finnex lights is they put out more light than I expect, but I've only ever run smaller tanks. I don't know what the PAR would be in your tank - it might be fine. Rotala Butterfly has a calculator for estimating your light levels:
> 
> ...


Thanks. I did read the Barr report stuff few years ago when I attempted planted tanks, need to revisit again. I think my biggest mistakes before was as you pointed out, the unrealistic expectation of fast-ish growth with low-ish maintenance. I did weekly, sometimes bi-weekly, water changes with CO2 and medium-high light with not enough fast growing plants, rarely testing water, randomly adding ferts (was using crappy substrate with just root tabs), which led to algae problems that ultimately killed off the plants. Hopefully having lots of water wisteria and some floating plants will help soak up the excess nutrients in the water while having a rich soil substrate can provided the needed fuel for them to grow properly. The great thing about the Finnex planted+ is that the lighting output is completely customizable (output strength by colors independently controlled). I think I'll try it at 80% white output oppose to max first and see how it goes. 

The light calculator seems cool, but I'm not sure how to fill it out.. what type of LEDs and watts per bulb are what I can't figure out for the Finnex.


----------



## Drummerboy7816 (Jan 25, 2013)

bigbadjon said:


> If low maintence is you goal I would keep some things in mind. First I would use an inert substrate if water changes are going to be infrequent, I would use some flourite red and mix it with gravel or sand. You should also keep the substate thin, like an inch in the front and no more than 2 in the back. Pack the tank with slow growing plants like crypts that will extensively root in the shollow substrate. I would avoid root tabs. This will ensure aerated subsrate and avoid many algae issues. Forget carpeting plants as you will require extensive vacuuming with these. Run the lights on lower powers for about 10 hours a day. Get an all in one fertilizer and dose once a week or so. Run the tank at low nitrates to avoid algae. When you do your water change do a big one, like 80%, and trim any damaged leaves or leaves showing algae or deformity.
> I understand this is a bit different advice than most people expect but weigh this with what most people are told and how many people fail with planted tanks.


Thanks for the advice. This does seem very different from the Walstad school of thought of a lush, substrate rich low maintenance tank. With this tank I do want a very lush environment, which seems like all signs point towards needing rich substrate to provide the necessary nutrients to heavy root feeders. Low-medium light does seem like a big factor to prevent algae growth, which was my down fall last time around..


----------



## Proteus01 (Mar 12, 2017)

I can give my experience as an example, perhaps. I believe simple is best for low maintenance, works for me. 

My low maint 40b tank: 
BDBS substrate (Ohio is an easy place to find this). 
Lava rock in piles at corners.
Manzanita and mopani wood.

Frogbit, java fern, anubias nana petite, amazon sword (waay too big, but thriving), aponogeton, cabomba, bacopa, marsilea, some kind of val or sag that grows 4” and spreads like mad, riccia. 

Cherry barbs (12), guppies (15+), 5 golden mystery snails, 7 pygmy cories. Not a tiny population, but definitely not overwhelming. 

I water change 20% per week or two, feed 4-6 days a week (bug bites, flakes, bloodworms), and never gravel vac (sand doesn’t trap stuff). 

My lights are diy with ledmo strips on Al threshold, on 6 hours. Filter is Fluval 406. 

With a high plant content, I have really no issues with algae - some on the glass, easy to clean up every few weeks. 

I drop in a half dose of Flourish every 2 weeks, which works out to a 1/4 dose I guess. I put some osmocote+ under the sword and aponos. 

Keep things simple and at a pace you can handle, and your plants will let you know if you need to do more. Consistency is key.


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Drummerboy7816 said:


> capped with some sort of black sand (black diamond blasting sand seems to be strongly favored as a cap for dirt, but in my area, it's $50 for 50 lbs from amazon, no local dealers in Irvine California).


Is this too far??? 

Tractor Supply
LAKE ELSINORE
18123 COLLIER AVE 
LAKE ELSINORE, CA 92530


----------



## Drummerboy7816 (Jan 25, 2013)

Proteus01 said:


> I can give my experience as an example, perhaps. I believe simple is best for low maintenance, works for me.
> 
> My low maint 40b tank:
> BDBS substrate (Ohio is an easy place to find this).
> ...


Nice, that sounds like a great set up. High plant content is what I need from the get-go!

Bump:


Maryland Guppy said:


> Is this too far???
> 
> Tractor Supply
> LAKE ELSINORE
> ...


Yeah, unfortunately that's a 3 hours out and back for me. I'll probably just end up getting some basic black sand from Petco.


----------



## fracturedapple (Jul 7, 2016)

Hello,

If you haven't done so I would recommend buying Diana walstad's book the ecology of the planted aquarium. I don't remember exactly how much but I know it wasn't too expensive if I bought it on amazon Kindle XD 

It has most if not all the answers you need for the walstad method. I know everything cannot be answered in one book. 

I went to the walstad method for the same reason, to busy but didn't want to quit the hobby. 

What I can say if you choose walstad's method, dry start is a good choice but it's not for everyone. Once water is in the tank the first couple months will be like a high tech tank with weekly water changes but when things start to stabilize it will go to the 6 months or a year water change depending on if you top of with r/o water or tap.

Chemical filtration is not recommended unless you suspect their are toxins in the water you wanted removed

My setup is 150 gallon 

Organic soil. I went to the local fish store and bought 2-3 mm size gravel for the cap. 

I use 4 kessil a160we kinda expensive I know but I already had 2 from the last tank.

Heavily planted 

Moderate fish load 

I am at the 6 month for water changes and the tank has been up a year and a half. My water was starting to turn into liquid rock so I switched to r/o water that I make myself to keep gh under control.

I only feed the tank twice a day and I over feed a little because I use no ferts and no root tabs.

What I mentioned doesn't even scratch the surface of what the book has but I wish you good luck with whatever you choose.














Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Drummerboy7816 said:


> Yeah, unfortunately that's a 3 hours out and back for me. I'll probably just end up getting some basic black sand from Petco.


How about Orange County Sandblasting???
415 West Walnut Ave.
Orange, CA 92867


----------



## Drummerboy7816 (Jan 25, 2013)

Maryland Guppy said:


> How about Orange County Sandblasting???
> 415 West Walnut Ave.
> Orange, CA 92867


That's very close to me! Appreciate the search. I'll call to see if they got some BDBS!


----------



## Drummerboy7816 (Jan 25, 2013)

fracturedapple said:


> Hello,
> 
> If you haven't done so I would recommend buying Diana walstad's book the ecology of the planted aquarium. I don't remember exactly how much but I know it wasn't too expensive if I bought it on amazon Kindle XD
> 
> ...


Wow those are expensive lights, haha.. I'm definitely ordering that book soon. How come your GH got some high? Is it because the top-off only instead of water changes?


----------



## Drummerboy7816 (Jan 25, 2013)

After soaking my nature’s care organic potting mix for a while in my backyard, it’s now got this really bad rotten egg smell I’m assuming from the chicken poo in there.. i scooped out the mud/dirt and now it’s sitting in a bucket to dry. Is this still safe to use? I’ve seen posts of people mentioning they were using NG Organic potting mix but never with much follow up (there was one where it reported higher ammonia first couple weeks then the thread dropped off). I already got my DHG in order and should be here in a week, but now I’m second guessing my choice of substrate..


----------



## Drummerboy7816 (Jan 25, 2013)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6y616j54wb0xuzk/Photo Apr 05, 11 39 53 PM.jpg?dl=0










Hardscape complete! Ended up mixing the Nature's Care with 50% regular topsoil, the smell reduced a lot after it dried up. An inch of that dirt mix, 1 inch of Petco black sand (on sale $13 for 20lbs), some gravel underneath to hold up that hill in the back left corner (didn't want to use that much dirt for fear of creating toxic pockets.. and sand would collapse over time). 

DHG and some other planting tonight!


----------



## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

Looks great! I like the arrangement and driftwood.


----------



## Drummerboy7816 (Jan 25, 2013)

Thanks! 

I basically got this tank and designed it the way it is because I liked that piece of wood so much, haha!


----------



## Drummerboy7816 (Jan 25, 2013)

Some plants in

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v9co9ziyexzflhv/Photo Apr 06, 11 38 43 PM.jpg?dl=0


----------



## Drummerboy7816 (Jan 25, 2013)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5rnk0q66zfdtf78/Photo Apr 07, 6 25 58 PM.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/paz6q7spa52wrl2/Photo Apr 08, 3 26 01 PM.jpg?dl=0


A bit cloudy/brown water yesterday as expected (first pic), did a 50% WC and 24 hours later, water remains much clearer (second pic). Also got my java fern in to put at the top of the hill. 

The Moneywort seems to doing good, crypts and sagg looks great with the stems and leaves "perking" up more now. The DHG doesn't look so hot, but it was honestly a bad batch form the start due to shipping delays (ebay seller gave me a full refund even without it dying yet). I'm not looking forward to pulling all those nodes out with the dirt...

Took some water measurements today:

PH 8.0
Ammonia 0.5
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5

PH seems a bit high but I think it's safe to start adding some snails, shrimp and fish? I also have frogbits coming in tomorrow to help reduce that ammonia even further. 

Also saw these little worms in the substrate and now tiny ones floating in the water.. not a lot, but enough that I can see if I look for it. based on some research 99% sure these are just detritus worms since they have these little "tongues" sticking out. Hopefully once I add some fish, 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vbnm91bidpucoup/Photo Apr 08, 5 49 50 PM.jpg?dl=0


----------



## Shaythesalmon (Jan 29, 2018)

Wow! I love your tank!!

I’m just starting a 55 gal myself with a dirt substrate. I’m trying to mineralized the soil right now which I have to do in tank since it’s so cold up here. 

From what I’ve read, I am going to wait at least two weeks once I have the tank running before I get fish. I will probably start with snails and a couple of my zebra danios from my 10 gallon


----------



## Drummerboy7816 (Jan 25, 2013)

Thanks!

I read some conflicting information as far as when to add livestock, but Walstad method does calls for adding it from day 1, but I think that requires very heavy planting from the start to ensure the excess ammonia from the rich dirt substrate is soaked up from the get go. I’m going to monitor my water perimeters a couple more day, especially once I add the frog bits today, to see if Ammonia is further reduced. 

Just ordered some pigmy chain swords to replace the DHG but it wont get here until end of this week.


----------



## Drummerboy7816 (Jan 25, 2013)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0kf1yyivfmgu45f/Photo Apr 10, 8 45 21 PM.jpg?dl=0

Got a surprise in the mail today! the pigmy chain swords came early :smile2:

75% water change along with planting the chains. The ones I got are TINY (about an inch of leaf). Not sure if these are a different kind but man a little concerned about the short root length of these swords, I think the seller may have cut the roots, but a lot of it is barely in the substrate right now, prob about half inch away from even reaching the dirt. A strong snail fart would uproot them.. 

Hopefully the roots grow shortly and they get the nutrients to grow.


----------



## Proteus01 (Mar 12, 2017)

You could try floating the plants for a bit (week or two) to let roots grow out. That’s worked for me when I have that issue.


----------



## Drummerboy7816 (Jan 25, 2013)

```

```



Proteus01 said:


> You could try floating the plants for a bit (week or two) to let roots grow out. That’s worked for me when I have that issue.


Thanks, they have stayed planted for the time being since I haven't really introduced any bottom disturbing fish at the moment (2 existing corries are in a temp tank). Looking okay so far, still green, no sign of melt but no sign of runners either, still early I guess.


----------



## Drummerboy7816 (Jan 25, 2013)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rmub14ego7vmr1v/Photo Apr 12, 8 41 45 PM.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/exywkfa0x55xg2p/Photo Apr 13, 9 54 07 PM.jpg?dl=0

Update. Added 15 rummynose tetra, 7 Harlequin rasboras, 15 RCS, 2 amano, and a wood shrimp. I dripped acclimated them over 2 hours. Unfortunately, I still somehow lost both amano, 3 of the rasboras, about half of the RCS, and the wood shrimp in a course of the week . My Ammonia level never exceeded 0.25, most of the time 0, 0 nitrite and 5 nitrate, water temp was around 76. Could be my water hardness (8.2)? There was 1 rasbora that didn't look right from the start so not surprised with him but the other 2 looked good and was schooling and eating after day 1. RCS mostly looked good too from the get go. My suspicion is that the flow was too strong as I had that power head in the back so the shimp really just stayed near the ground. I have since turned off that power head and it does seem like the shimps now go out mroe especially climbing and munching on the branch. Will plan to get a smaller power head. Amano literally disappeared on the second day.. never saw them. When I dropped them in they both starting munching right away, so that's weird. A bit surprised that all 15 rummynose are still doing great as I had trouble with them in the past. 

Plant wise, my Dwarf Sag was actually melting a bit and I realize it was because I buried them too deep, covering the crown. Pulled them up so that the crown just sits above the substrate, hopefully they will still recover. A tiny bit of Crypt melt but I see new growth coming in exceeding the few leaves that melted so that good! Moneywort is growing visibly. Probably an inch and an half overall since I planted 2 weeks ago. Wisteria looking real good too, really took shape over the last week. Ludwigia Repens not growing a whole lot but looks okay so far. Jave ferns looks good.


----------



## Drummerboy7816 (Jan 25, 2013)

Dwarf sag looks like it's starting to recover some the base was less yellow/brown than when I first initially pulled them up from the substrate. 

Noticing more diatom/brown algae on the leaves of my crypts. Water readings still solid (ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5, ph 8.4). The ph is climbing gradually, should I be worried? I haven't done a water change in about 10 days, just top offs,


----------

