# Cycling: Liquid Ammonia vs Fish Food?



## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

Why do people use ammonia instead of fish food when cycling a new tank? It seems easier to me to add fish food since it's slow release and doesn't need to be added every day.


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## g4search (Aug 10, 2014)

Fishly,
how would you know that your tank is cycled unless you measure the turn-over of ammonia?

Fish food may never release ammonia, or the low levels of ammonia produced may not be detectable and they could also be metabolized further.


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## caique (Mar 16, 2012)

It's easy to measure, for instance 2 drops in a 20 gallon 1 ppm ammonia.

Check in a few days.


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## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

g4search said:


> Fishly,
> how would you know that your tank is cycled unless you measure the turn-over of ammonia?
> 
> Fish food may never release ammonia, or the low levels of ammonia produced may not be detectable and they could also be metabolized further.


You can test the water for ammonia from the fish food the same way you would test for it from the bottle. I don't see how there's a difference in that regard. 

As I understand it, ammonia is released whenever something rots, especially under water. Unless the fish food had some magical preservatives, I'm pretty sure it would release enough ammonia for a cycle.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Fishly said:


> You can test the water for ammonia from the fish food the same way you would test for it from the bottle. I don't see how there's a difference in that regard.
> 
> As I understand it, ammonia is released whenever something rots, especially under water. Unless the fish food had some magical preservatives, I'm pretty sure it would release enough ammonia for a cycle.


 You would be correct.
A pinch of fish food every other day for three or four weeks would start and feed bacterial colony.(or,,raw/ small cocktail shrimp)
Would see ammonia after the first week or thereabout's, followed by nitrites after about two weeks, and nitrAtes would come quickly following the nitrites.
No need for near daily dosing of ammonmia /testing.No water changes required .
Once ammonia and nitrites read zero for three consecutive days and nitrates are present,then perform 50% water change and can stock fish slowly a few at a time (not a dozen).
Can also perform "silent" cycling if one wishes, by stuffing the tank with as many plants (preferably fast grower's) as will fit, and the plant's would consume ammonia/nitrites/nitrates.
A week after placing the plant's in the tank,one could add a few small fish every six to ten day's to be safe.
Can swap out the fast growing plants later for whatever your particular method allows and or suits your fancy.
Can also perform fish in cycling without harm to fishes but this method only works with very few/small fish per volume of water, and very sparse feedings which most are unable to do.
Have performed all of the above methods while setting up class room tanks for small children who are not inclined to sit patiently for weeks while staring at empty tanks.
Nor were they to be trusted with toxic chemicals such as ammonia.
More than one way to skin a cat so to speak, but they all require patience which seems to be problematic for many.


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## jrill (Nov 20, 2013)

When I add ammonia I can regulate the amount and adjust to reach whatever level I am looking for. With fish food its hit and miss.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Ammonia is very cheap and it is consistent where using food is slow and varies. As stated, when you are trying to do a fishless cycle to the max benefit, ammonia is the way to go. You can figure how many drops to get the correct level. But if time and what level of bacteria is not a concern, food will work.


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

Ammonia doesn't have to be added everyday unless your cycled and your not ready to add fish. Its give you quicker results though. I can say that I will never use food to cycle. The price for a bottle of ammonia is cheaper that most containers of fish food. Ammonia will always be high in concentration compared to fish food. I don't know the ratio of fish food per gallon of water that is equal to 100% ammonia but I am sure its quite high.


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## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

You can use other things besides fish food - raw shrimp, canned tuna, dog/cat food, etc. The beneficial bacteria don't care where it comes from. And why would you wait until you got fish to buy fish food? Wouldn't you get it at the same time as the other supplies?


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

I have heard from those who claim the fishless cycling is faster and this intrigues me, for I have not found it to be any faster than any of the other methods available.
You can add all the ammonia or food you wish, but the bacteria will develop at it's own speed .
Yes ,you will have larger bacterial colony with ammonia method capable of supporting larger numbers of fish,But the bacteria don't develop any faster using ammonia that I have ever seen.
You just wind up with larger colony of bacteria ,but takes the same or very nearly the same amount of time assuming temps,pH, were same across several tanks and no seed material from other established tanks or snake oils are/were used.

Bump:


Fishly said:


> You can use other things besides fish food - raw shrimp, canned tuna, dog/cat food, etc. The beneficial bacteria don't care where it comes from. And why would you wait until you got fish to buy fish food? Wouldn't you get it at the same time as the other supplies?


 
Yep,I have used dry cat food food,dead crayfish or minnows from bait tanks,shrimp,liver.
The use of these however can get smelly if you use way too much, so large water changes might be needed to knock the smell back depending on volume of water and how much was used.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Anything with protein has nitrogen, and will get broken down into its component parts, each organisms in the system using some of it, and producing waste products, one of which is ammonia. 

Think about this: When the tank is running the source of ammonia is NOT the fish; it is the fish food. The fish are just the agents that break it down. 

It is entirely correct that you can cycle the tank, grow the amount of bacteria you want simply by feeding the tank fish food, just as if there are real fish in there. 
I would select the highest protein fish food I could find, and slightly overfeed the tank to be sure of growing a really good population of nitrifying bacteria. 

However, since I am simply using fish food as a route to adding ammonia (after all, that is what the protein from any source breaks down to) I find it simpler just to dose ammonia. Save the fish food for feeding real fish. 

As for how fast... 
Nitrifying bacteria are slow growing. Several studies have been done that show these bacteria only reproduce about twice a day compared to many other bacteria that reproduce every few hours. 
So it is going to take time. 
The fishless cycle that I keep posting has been studied and it is the fastest way to grow a colony of bacteria capable of supporting a full tank of fish. It was designed by a couple of scientists who wanted to fully stock a Rift Lake tank all at one time. They worked with the dosing until they had the timing down to 3 weeks, with no starter colony, no jump start. 
They also tried the planted tank method, and indeed, when the plants were dense and thriving that was all the biological filtration the tank needed. I am hesitant to tell this to a beginner, who may not be able to keep the plants thriving. Then there would be a tank full of fish, and dying plants to make things worse. Much better, IMO for a beginner to do the fishless cycle, and get some grasp of the water chemistry before actually getting fish. 
The fishless cycle can be jump started by sharing media from established tanks. The more you can share (without causing problems for the donor tank) the faster the cycle will go in the new tank. I have taken up to 25% of the media out of a filter and not had problems in the donor tank. By taking several such donations from several tanks the new tank's filter is pretty well established and it can handle about 50% of a fish load from day 1. Combining this with the 'silent cycle' of a planted tank will go a long way to getting the tank populated with fish and bacteria very quickly. 

The fish-in cycle takes a lot longer because you have to build the population very slowly, and do lots of water changes to keep the ammonia low enough to be safe for the fish. It will take about a month just for the initial colony to get going, enough to handle just the waste load from your first fish, and now these fish have been exposed to varying levels of toxins for a month. The stress can affect their immune system, the ammonia can burn their gills and other tender tissue, and the nitrite causes brown blood disease. 
Then you add just a couple more fish, and repeat the cycle. It will go a bit faster, but you are still monitoring and changing water, and now exposing more fish to the toxins. A couple of weeks later you can add a few more fish and repeat. 
And repeat. And repeat... 
Finally, you will build up the fish population to a full tank, but it has taken 2-3 months, and the fish have been exposed to ammonia and nitrite over most of this time. 

The source of the ammonia can indeed be almost anything else with protein, many things are already listed. They work. There may be some smell from some, and as these things rot there may be fungus covered bits in the tank. Perhaps that is OK, it is growing a more complex web of microorganisms. 
I have done the fishless cycle with fish food, and with ammonia. 
Simply monitoring the ammonia level keeps it on track. 
Yes, there is a slight delay in the response to fish food. Add it today and test tomorrow or the next day. 
With ammonia, just let it circulate (I give it an hour more or less) and test the level. Adjust as needed. 

Here is the fishless cycle, worked out to grow the bacteria in the fastest manner possible. 

Cycle: To grow the beneficial bacteria that remove ammonia and nitrite from the aquarium.

Fish-In Cycle: To expose fish to toxins while using them as the source of ammonia to grow nitrogen cycle bacteria. Exposure to ammonia burns the gills and other soft tissue, stresses the fish and lowers their immunity. Exposure to nitrite makes the blood unable to carry oxygen. Research methemglobinemia for details. 

Fishless Cycle: The safe way to grow more bacteria, faster, in an aquarium, pond or riparium. 

The method I give here was developed by 2 scientists who wanted to quickly grow enough bacteria to fully stock a tank all at one time, with no plants helping, and overstock it as is common with Rift Lake Cichlid tanks. 

1a) Set up the tank and all the equipment. You can plant if you want. Include the proper dose of dechlorinator with the water. 
Optimum water chemistry:
GH and KH above 3 German degrees of hardness. A lot harder is just fine. 
pH above 7, and into the mid 8s is just fine. 
Temperature in the upper 70s F (mid 20s C) is good. Higher is OK if the water is well aerated. 
A trace of other minerals may help. Usually this comes in with the water, but if you have a pinch of KH2PO4, that may be helpful. 
High oxygen level. Make sure the filter and power heads are running well. Plenty of water circulation. 
No toxins in the tank. If you washed the tank, or any part of the system with any sort of cleanser, soap, detergent, bleach or anything else make sure it is well rinsed. Do not put your hands in the tank when you are wearing any sort of cosmetics, perfume or hand lotion. No fish medicines of any sort. 
A trace of salt (sodium chloride) is OK, but not required. 
This method of growing bacteria will work in a marine system, too. The species of bacteria are different. 

1b) Optional: Add any source of the bacteria that you are growing to seed the tank. Cycled media from a healthy tank is good. Decor or some gravel from a cycled tank is OK. Live plants or plastic are OK. Bottled bacteria is great, but only if it contains Nitrospira species of bacteria. Read the label and do not waste your money on anything else. 
At the time this was written the right species could be found in: 
Dr. Tims One and Only
Tetra Safe Start
Microbe Lift Nite Out II
...and perhaps others. 
You do not have to jump start the cycle. The right species of bacteria are all around, and will find the tank pretty fast. 

2) Add ammonia until the test reads 5 ppm. This ammonia is the cheapest you can find. No surfactants, no perfumes. Read the fine print. This is often found at discount stores like Dollar Tree, or hardware stores like Ace. You could also use a dead shrimp form the grocery store, or fish food. Protein breaks down to become ammonia. You do not have good control over the ammonia level, though. 
Some substrates release ammonia when they are submerged for the first time. Monitor the level and do enough water changes to keep the ammonia at the levels detailed below. 

3) Test daily. For the first few days not much will happen, but the bacteria that remove ammonia are getting started. Finally the ammonia starts to drop. Add a little more, once a day, to test 5 ppm. 

4) Test for nitrite. A day or so after the ammonia starts to drop the nitrite will show up. When it does allow the ammonia to drop to 3 ppm. 

5) Test daily. Add ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. If the nitrite or ammonia go to 5 ppm do a water change to get these lower. The ammonia removing species and the nitrite removing species (Nitrospira) do not do well when the ammonia or nitrite are over 5 ppm. 

6) When the ammonia and nitrite both hit zero 24 hours after you have added the ammonia the cycle is done. You can challenge the bacteria by adding a bit more than 3 ppm ammonia, and it should be able to handle that, too, within 24 hours. 

7) Now test the nitrate. Probably sky high! 
Do as big a water change as needed to lower the nitrate until it is safe for fish. Certainly well under 20, and a lot lower is better. This may call for more than one water change, and up to 100% water change is not a problem. Remember the dechlor!
If you will be stocking right away (within 24 hours) no need to add more ammonia. If stocking will be delayed keep feeding the bacteria by adding ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. You will need to do another water change right before adding the fish.
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Helpful hints:

A) You can run a fishless cycle in a bucket to grow bacteria on almost any filter media like bio balls, sponges, ceramic bio noodles, lava rock or Matala mats. Simply set up any sort of water circulation such as a fountain pump or air bubbler and add the media to the bucket. Follow the directions for the fishless cycle. When the cycle is done add the media to the filter. I have run a canister filter in a bucket and done the fishless cycle.

B) The nitrogen cycle bacteria will live under a wide range of conditions and bounce back from minor set backs. By following the set up suggestions in part 1b) you are setting up optimum conditions for fastest reproduction and growth.
GH and KH can be as low as 1 degree, but watch it! These bacteria use the carbon in carbonates, and if it is all used up (KH = 0) the bacteria may die off. 
pH as low as 6.5 is OK, but by 6.0 the bacteria are not going to be doing very well. They are still there, and will recover pretty well when conditions get better. 
Temperature almost to freezing is OK, but they must not freeze, and they are not very active at all. They do survive in a pond, but they are slow to warm up and get going in the spring. This is where you might need to grow some in a bucket in a warm place and supplement the pond population. Too warm is not good, either. Tropical or room temperature tank temperatures are best. (68 to 85*F or 20 to 28*C)
Moderate oxygen can be tolerated for a while. However, to remove lots of ammonia and nitrite these bacteria must have oxygen. They turn one into the other by adding oxygen. If you must stop running the filter for an hour or so, no problem. If longer, remove the media and keep it where it will get more oxygen. 
Once the bacteria are established they can tolerate some fish medicines. This is because they live in a complex film called Bio film on all the surfaces in the filter and the tank. Medicines do not enter the bio film well. 
These bacteria do not need to live under water. They do just fine in a humid location. They live in healthy garden soil, as well as wet locations. 

C) Planted tanks may not tolerate 3 ppm or 5 ppm ammonia. It is possible to cycle the tank at lower levels of ammonia so the plants do not get ammonia burn. Add ammonia to only 1 ppm, but test twice a day, and add ammonia as needed to keep it at 1 ppm. The plants are also part of the bio filter, and you may be able to add the fish sooner, if the plants are thriving.


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