# Pros and Cons: Iwagumi vs. Nature Aquarium



## tbarabash (May 18, 2011)

I think that you sound just like most of us....

Hard to give you some advice to make you not want to replicate all the tanks you find. You gotta deal with that in your own mind believing that your tank is good enough. 

Personally I think iwagumi is kind of boring, it would be neat to set up but once it is, there's really nothing that changes. All you do is mow your lawn once every couple weeks.. there's really no dynamic changes with stem plants and possibilities for caves and cool looking driftwood.


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## Dollface (Sep 30, 2008)

The same aesthetic and technical principles that apply to iwagumi tanks also apply to NA, or any other aquarium scape, only magnified. If you find yourself having trouble with other styles, you'll probably be even more frustrated with iwagumi.


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## OiZO (Feb 2, 2010)

I have found iwagumi the hardest. You cannot hide anything every little bit of algae or any spot where plants are not doing well shows. I find that i spent more time grooming and maintaining it just to keep it looking good then any other planted style i have gone for. That said i find iwagumi more pleasing to the eye when you take the whole room as context.


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## alfalfa (Jan 19, 2012)

zchauvin said:


> Now someone kick me in the rear for being so ocd, but I'm thinking of planting everything and if it doesn't grow out rite, take it apart and go iwagumi.. What are you guys thoughts??


I was in the same situation. Iwagumi can be much more frustrating. It was for me. The good news is it stopped the runaway OCD train and I've learned to be happy with what I have... for now.


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## zchauvin (Apr 16, 2011)

Lol yeah, its just stems have to grow in and everything and it seems like forever. Idk how using just some rocks would make it hard?

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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

zchauvin said:


> Idk how using just some rocks would make it hard?
> 
> Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


You'd think so, wouldn't you 

The problem is that there's nothing to hide anything. When you work with a minimalist scape, it's more clearly a work of art. And as such, it's more important to be perfect. You might be surprised to find that you have a much clearer perception of "right" versus "not right". And so do other people (if you value anybody else's opinions on your tank).

What you really want to avoid, a couple months down the road as everything fills in, is looking at your tank and realizing "hey, my tank is just some plants with rocks in."

You seem to be leaning that way, if only to satisfy your curiosity. Go for it! Just do yourself a favor and spend some extra time setting up the hardscape.


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## zchauvin (Apr 16, 2011)

Lol yeah... And my biggest problem is I can't ever get driftwood to look right haha. Im so tired of it, blah but I will wait and let all my stems grow out and see what I think then more than likely well them all and buy rock haha 

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## EnigmaticGuppy92 (Jan 31, 2012)

i dont mind iwagumi but i dont think id do one myself to be honest i like the more rustic natural look myself i feel that it is more diverse


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## neueklare_ein (Jan 25, 2012)

As a matter of fact, most people in the West do not understand Iwagumi. If one doesn't get the philosophy behind, it looks really horribly boring. But it's actually more than that...an iwagumi setup can be amazing, relaxing, insightful to some but stupid, dull, meaningless to others.


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## Booger (May 17, 2004)

I just enjoy narcissistic pseudo poetry.

"I call this aquascape... *dramatic pause*... Nature's Gentle Hidden Mystery Farts. I came up with that while I was spooning my cat."

_"You got all that from HC and a box of rocks from AFA?"_

"It's obviously far beyond your realm of comprehension."


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## Bahugo (Apr 18, 2011)

It took me several attempts using different driftwood, different rocks, different plants over several months with several good scapes (and some poor attempts) until being happy with my scape. I still always keep an eye out for wood while I am at the LFS's in case I see that "wow I can't live without that piece". 

I say don't give up. I learn something from every good scape, and several things from bad scapes each time, it's a learning process. 

I know there is a whole "philosophy" behind Iwagima scapes, but I just find 99% of them boring, comically copycatish, and repetitive. Am I saying I don't think they are nice? No there are some that are truly amazing, just not my cup of tea. Honestly, my biggest gripe with Iwagima scapes though, is that it looks the exact same (in 99% of scapes) without water, as it does with water. I could have an Iwagima scape in my emersed setup, why do I need it in my aquarium? Fish just look out of place 90% of the time because they are just swimming there in emptiness... My fish enjoy going in the plants.


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## zchauvin (Apr 16, 2011)

Yeah, I really like some iwagumis but I love the nature aquariums. I have about 4-5 different stems coming in this week so ill plant them accordingly and see how it looks, hopefully after a few trims and ect it will be nice.

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## Dollface (Sep 30, 2008)

"It's just rocks, how hard can it be?"
"It's just rocks, it's so boring."
"It's just rocks, it all looks the same."

^ I hope nobody wonders why there's so few truly exceptional western iwagumi 'scapes.


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## Bahugo (Apr 18, 2011)

Dollface said:


> "It's just rocks, how hard can it be?"
> "It's just rocks, it's so boring."
> "It's just rocks, it all looks the same."
> 
> ^ I hope nobody wonders why there's so few truly exceptional western iwagumi 'scapes.


Was that directed towards me?


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## neueklare_ein (Jan 25, 2012)

I totally respect those who do not enjoy Iwagumi. It's just not their cup of tea. But it just doesn't sound right to really detest it and argue that it's not reasonable (it's the same with or without water, why water...) Well, most natural style tank arrangements can be replicated by terrestrial plants setups...

We gotta admit that it's mostly Eastern stuff. The kind of art that Iwagumi originated from has been there for more than a millennium. One doesn't get it, one doesn't get it. But it's not quote-unquote philosophy.

The thing is that there really can't be any copy of iwagumi setups. Coz each and every stone looks different. Even if they are arranged in the exact same ways in all tanks, they give different impressions.

But it's definitely right that it might not be the best environment for fish. XDD


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## Dollface (Sep 30, 2008)

Bahugo said:


> Was that directed towards me?


No, just towards this thread and others like it in general. I find the ~it's just rocks~ mentality that seems to permeate the hobby to be very frustrating. Iwagumi can be extremely enjoyable if you actually sit down and admire, or get the chance to do some arrangements. It's also a lot more challenging in some respects, so when people dismiss it so easily, it kind of diminishes a lot of hard work from people who've made some really exceptional scapes, esp on this forum.


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## samamorgan (Dec 31, 2011)

Dollface said:


> No, just towards this thread and others like it in general. I find the ~it's just rocks~ mentality that seems to permeate the hobby to be very frustrating. Iwagumi can be extremely enjoyable if you actually sit down and admire, or get the chance to do some arrangements. It's also a lot more challenging in some respects, so when people dismiss it so easily, it kind of diminishes a lot of hard work from people who've made some really exceptional scapes, esp on this forum.


:thumbsup:


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Dollface said:


> No, just towards this thread and others like it in general. I find the ~it's just rocks~ mentality that seems to permeate the hobby to be very frustrating. Iwagumi can be extremely enjoyable if you actually sit down and admire, or get the chance to do some arrangements. It's also a lot more challenging in some respects, so when people dismiss it so easily, it kind of diminishes a lot of hard work from people who've made some really exceptional scapes, esp on this forum.


Totally agree as well. I think from all the scapes I've done I got the most satisfaction from one of my iwagumi setups.


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## Booger (May 17, 2004)

Dollface said:


> No, just towards this thread and others like it in general. I find the ~it's just rocks~ mentality that seems to permeate the hobby to be very frustrating.


Despite my sarcasm, I agree. Difference is I've long since given up on trying to convince others to approach iwagumi (and aquascaping in general) more seriously. It's just not the culture here and I doubt it ever will be.

I once asked a famous european aquascaper what he thought of US aquascapers and his response was something like, "I look at all the websites and think maybe no more than 10-12 people in all of the country do serious aquascaping."

Asking us to appreciate iwagumi at a deeper level is a tall order when you consider where most of us fall on the spectrum of aquascapers.


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## neueklare_ein (Jan 25, 2012)

It doesn't seem to me like anyone is trying to persuade others to do Iwagumi. Nor is anyone asking people to appreciate it at any level. The concern here is that it really doesn't seem respectful to describe the style as "just stones", "boring" etc.

The truth is that Iwagumi is really an art form; there are tons of theories and philosophy behind it. Not understanding those is totally fine but one shouldn't try to make fun of it or describe it as something totally unreasonable.



Booger said:


> Despite my sarcasm, I agree. Difference is I've long since given up on trying to convince others to approach iwagumi (and aquascaping in general) more seriously. It's just not the culture here and I doubt it ever will be.
> 
> I once asked a famous european aquascaper what he thought of US aquascapers and his response was something like, "I look at all the websites and think maybe no more than 10-12 people in all of the country do serious aquascaping."
> 
> Asking us to appreciate iwagumi at a deeper level is a tall order when you consider where most of us fall on the spectrum of aquascapers.


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## Dollface (Sep 30, 2008)

Booger said:


> Despite my sarcasm, I agree. Difference is I've long since given up on trying to convince others to approach iwagumi (and aquascaping in general) more seriously. It's just not the culture here and I doubt it ever will be.
> 
> I once asked a famous european aquascaper what he thought of US aquascapers and his response was something like, "I look at all the websites and think maybe no more than 10-12 people in all of the country do serious aquascaping."
> 
> Asking us to appreciate iwagumi at a deeper level is a tall order when you consider where most of us fall on the spectrum of aquascapers.





neueklare_ein said:


> It doesn't seem to me like anyone is trying to persuade others to do Iwagumi. Nor is anyone asking people to appreciate it at any level. The concern here is that it really doesn't seem respectful to describe the style as "just stones", "boring" etc.
> 
> The truth is that Iwagumi is really an art form; there are tons of theories and philosophy behind it. Not understanding those is totally fine but one shouldn't try to make fun of it or describe it as something totally unreasonable.


I personally think the idea of aquascaping as an almost pseudo religious "philosophy", esp in relation to iwagumi, has been somewhat over inflated. Not to say that there can't be a part of the process that isn't meaningful like that, but people seem to get wrapped up in the idea that you have to convert to zen Buddhism to fully understand what makes a good iwagumi, or something. 

I think as long as you have a decent sense, understanding, and appreciation of some basic aesthetic rules, it should still be possible to go "hey, that's a _good looking_ pile of rocks" even if you still just think it's a pile of rocks or w/e.


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## Booger (May 17, 2004)

neueklare_ein said:


> It doesn't seem to me like anyone is trying to persuade others to do Iwagumi. Nor is anyone asking people to appreciate it at any level. The concern here is that it really doesn't seem respectful to describe the style as "just stones", "boring" etc.
> 
> The truth is that Iwagumi is really an art form; there are tons of theories and philosophy behind it. Not understanding those is totally fine but one shouldn't try to make fun of it or describe it as something totally unreasonable.



That's what it is to you, but to just about everyone, it's still just rocks in a fish tank. Interpreting a difference of opinion or lack of background knowledge as disrespectful isn't fair, IMO.

Telling me I need to be respectful of something I don't understand seems like a conflict to me. Here's a photo of an exhibit at the metropolitan museum of art. I'm sure there are some who find deep meaning in this, but I don't think I could ever talk myself into it with a straight face.


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## Dollface (Sep 30, 2008)

Booger said:


> That's what it is to you, but to just about everyone, it's still just rocks in a fish tank. Interpreting a difference of opinion or lack of background knowledge as disrespectful isn't fair, IMO.
> 
> Telling me I need to be respectful of something I don't understand seems like a conflict to me. Here's a photo of an exhibit at the metropolitan museum of art. I'm sure there are some who find deep meaning in this, but I don't think I could ever talk myself into it with a straight face.


So you can't appreciate the (extremely good) application of color theory in the selection of shades used for each canvas just because you don't buy whatever the "meaning" the artist says it represents?


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## neueklare_ein (Jan 25, 2012)

I am not one of those who believe that we have to convert to Zen to understand the art. Nor do I think that there really are people like that. Again, I am not asking anyone to understand that philosophy or to persuade anyone that there really is philosophy behind it. But respect it. In fact, I don't often get the philosophy either. And yes, it's a pile of rocks. "that's a good looking pile of rocks" is totally fine. Don't take what I said word by word. I was giving examples of people making fun of something that they don't understand. And again, it's totally fine, it's not something that you HAVE TO understand but respect it.



Dollface said:


> I personally think the idea of aquascaping as an almost pseudo religious "philosophy", esp in relation to iwagumi, has been somewhat over inflated. Not to say that there can't be a part of the process that isn't meaningful like that, but people seem to get wrapped up in the idea that you have to convert to zen Buddhism to fully understand what makes a good iwagumi, or something.
> 
> I think as long as you have a decent sense, understanding, and appreciation of some basic aesthetic rules, it should still be possible to go "hey, that's a _good looking_ pile of rocks" even if you still just think it's a pile of rocks or w/e.


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## Dollface (Sep 30, 2008)

neueklare_ein said:


> I am not one of those who believe that we have to convert to Zen to understand the art. Nor do I think that there really are people like that. Again, I am not asking anyone to understand that philosophy or to persuade anyone that there really is philosophy behind it. But respect it. And yes, it's a pile of rocks. "that's a good looking pile of rocks" is totally fine. Don't take what I said word by word. I was giving examples of people making fun of something that they don't understand. And again, it's totally fine, it's not something that you HAVE TO understand but respect it.


Dude but we agree tho.


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## neueklare_ein (Jan 25, 2012)

I find your reasoning really confusing. I don't know if you know Islam or not. I don't and I am assuming that most people on this forum do not. You did say "telling me I need to be respectful of something seems like conflicting". So go ahead a laugh at those who pray to the direction of Mecca! Is that what you are saying?

And you are totally right, some get it, some do not. I am not forcing anyone to get it. In fact, I don't often get it myself. But just be respectful. There are people who devote their time in doing that. It doesn't harm society. They mean to do art. Making fun of the style is disrespectful to them.

Lack of background knowledge is totally fine too. Any sane person, especially those on this forum, however, can understand that those rocks are deliberately arranged. That is the basic reason why the tank deserves respect. You don't have to know anything else in order for you to respect it. When you are confused, on the other hand, question. Think before you want to say anything that might potentially hurt someone's feeling. Things like "it looks that same with or without water", implying that the style really is unreasonable for aquarium doesn't really sound nice. Ask, instead, why do people want to add water to it even if it looks the same before and after. I don't have an answer but someone might.

That's all that I am saying. I am not forcing anyone to understand. It's fine that it doesn't prevail in North America. You can definitely look at it as just a pile of arranged rocks and don't see the philosophy behind it at all. But be respectful.

What you said really brings this discussion to another level. I wonder how many people out there are thinking like you--"asking me to be respectful to something that I don't don't understand sounds conflicting". If there really are tons of people like you, I totally understand why this country has so many problems about different ideas, cultures etc.



Booger said:


> That's what it is to you, but to just about everyone, it's still just rocks in a fish tank. Interpreting a difference of opinion or lack of background knowledge as disrespectful isn't fair, IMO.
> 
> Telling me I need to be respectful of something I don't understand seems like a conflict to me. Here's a photo of an exhibit at the metropolitan museum of art. I'm sure there are some who find deep meaning in this, but I don't think I could ever talk myself into it with a straight face.


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## neueklare_ein (Jan 25, 2012)

We do. But I am not picking specifically on people who say that it's a pile of stones. :hihi:



Dollface said:


> Dude but we agree tho.


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## Booger (May 17, 2004)

Dollface said:


> So you can't appreciate the (extremely good) application of color theory in the selection of shades used for each canvas just because you don't buy whatever the "meaning" the artist says it represents?


I can appreciate colors without grasping the supposed meaning behind them. I can look at an iwagumi and appreciate it from an aesthetic perspective, but assigning spiritual value to it is beyond my realm of comprehension. By literal definition, I see a pile of rocks. If others want to paint me as intellectually inferior for it (ironic, maybe), I can live with that.




neueklare_ein said:


> I find your reasoning really confusing. I don't know if you know Islam or not. I don't and I am assuming that most people on this forum do not. You did say "telling me I need to be respectful of something seems like conflicting". So go ahead a laugh at those who pray in the direction of Mecca! Is that what you are saying?


LOL What kind of loaded question is that?

When I have company over and they ask me if I'm going to eat my cherry shrimp or tell me that I need some blue african chicklets, I'm don't tee off on them for being disrespectful. They don't know or care anything about planted tanks, so I don't expect them to respect it as an art form. How can you expect different? Not a big deal.




neueklare_ein said:


> What you said really brings this discussion to another level. I wonder how many people out there are thinking like you--"asking me to be respectful to something that I don't don't understand sounds conflicting". If there really are tons of people like you, I totally understand why this country has so many problems about different ideas, cultures etc.


Pretty judgmental for someone preaching about respect. Consider getting out more if you think ethnocentrism is a trait unique to Americans.


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## neueklare_ein (Jan 25, 2012)

It's a pile of stones. Don't take what I said word by word. I was giving examples of people making fun of the style. You don't have to understand the philosophy. I have never forced anyone to understand that. Actually, I often don't really get that either. I have never said that those who don't understand the philosophy are disrespectful. I have always been talking about those who make fun of it or despise it. 

You do know that there are quite a number of fallacies in your argument, right?

1st: There are people out there who do not respect anything whatsoever but it doesn't mean that we can do so. Just giving examples of people not respecting your tanks do not justify people's disrespectful behavior. You didn't feel bad but I am sure that there are people who do feel bad from those questions and responses. And you know what, if those people ever make you feel slightly not good in any ways, you shouldn't do the same to others.

2nd: Same fallacy, actually. I am talking about America but I didn't say that other countries do not have the same problem. And again, even if other countries have the same problem, it doesn't mean that it's right for people in this country to do so.

I don't know what makes your tones so caustic. Preaching...I am not saying all those as if I have higher moral standard than anyone else here. The main point I want to express is that people hurt others by saying unthoughtful stuff. I am not preaching. I am just trying to avoid some people from getting hurt by what those disrespectful and irresponsible people say online. 

The question isn't loaded, I am just following your train of thought. Does it not make the flaws of your point more obvious? The only reason for you to think that it's loaded is that it reveals how naive your point really is. 

"Asking me to be respectful to something that I don't understand is a conflict" What's the logic??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I really don't know how you get the feeling that I am saying that those who don't understand the philosophy or the art are disrespectful. That's not my point. What I am saying is really simple: Just because some spent some time arranging the rocks, we, who are on this forum, should respect the scape. You are totally messing up my point. Just read carefully before you want to be mean.

What Dollface says is the closest to what I am saying:
"I find the ~it's just rocks~ mentality that seems to permeate the hobby to be very *frustrating*. Iwagumi can be extremely enjoyable if you actually sit down and admire, or get the chance to do some arrangements. It's also a lot more challenging in some respects, so when people dismiss it so easily, *it kind of diminishes a lot of hard work from people who've made some really exceptional scapes, esp on this forum*".

That's it.



Booger said:


> I can appreciate colors without grasping the supposed meaning behind them. I can look at an iwagumi and appreciate it from an aesthetic perspective, but assigning spiritual value to it is beyond my realm of comprehension. By literal definition, I see a pile of rocks. If others want to paint me as intellectually inferior for it (ironic, maybe), I can live with that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## neueklare_ein (Jan 25, 2012)

I am sorry guys. I didn't mean to hijack this thread. But the very logic gets on my nerves.


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## Bahugo (Apr 18, 2011)

neueklare_ein said:


> I find your reasoning really confusing. I don't know if you know Islam or not. I don't and I am assuming that most people on this forum do not. You did say "telling me I need to be respectful of something seems like conflicting". So go ahead a laugh at those who pray to the direction of Mecca! Is that what you are saying?
> 
> And you are totally right, some get it, some do not. I am not forcing anyone to get it. In fact, I don't often get it myself. But just be respectful. There are people who devote their time in doing that. It doesn't harm society. They mean to do art. Making fun of the style is disrespectful to them.
> 
> ...


I have seen you mention this like three times (bolded part), you really took my sentence completely out of context. 

That is why it is hard for me  *ME* too do an iwagumi scape. *Me personally.* I say that because there are so many threads on forums everywhere about "Dry start Iwagumi" then they fill it XX amount weeks later, and it is the identical tank. I enjoy watching a tank mature, trimming stem plants etc. I feel like dry start Iwagumi is the Flavor of the month. 

My comment was not directed towards anybody, or any aquascapers who have done Iwagumi scapes. Just my preference. I have great respect for people who can make a great layout, and in all seriousness too make a great layout with just stones is very hard, there is nothing too hide your flaws and it is naked. The hardscape is speaking for the tank. No plants too hide flaws, etc. * A beautiful tank is a beautiful tank in my eyes, irregardless of what style or stone or wood or plant is in it.* *It is the finished product that matters. 
*

I really loath these conversations when they come up, if you all are really disgusted with Americans and how horrible we are at aquascaping (art, etc), why not step up and further us as a country instead of bringing everybody down and calling them narrow minded and ignorant too art? I visit foreign sites now and then too browse their aquascaping stuff etc, and they are much more helpful as a whole, so much less arguing and bringing down people. Nobody steps up here, they just jump too bring people down as quick as possible too hold their head high with a superior smirk. There was a thread a few months back about how much we suck as a country at aquascaping, we get it. Maybe people should start helping, or step up and make better scapes themselves. 

You guys beat this topic too death, you also have too understand that all other countries who are out-showing the US in aquascaping contests have a far larger number hobbyist who keep planted aquariums. A far larger population keeping planted aquariums is going too equal more successful aquascapers. If they have 20,000 people doing the hobby and we have 5,000 people and 1/1000 people enter an aquascaping contest, who will have more? Common logic.


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## Dollface (Sep 30, 2008)

> I feel like dry start Iwagumi is the Flavor of the month.


Dry starts aren't just limited to iwagumi's though.


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## neueklare_ein (Jan 25, 2012)

Thanks for clarifying. But the highlighted part made me really think that you are despising the style. Don't you think so? I apologize if I am wrong.

But note that I am not the one saying that Americans are not up to standard in aquascaping. The one who is attacking me most seriously is. You might want to direct what you said to him.

I don't see anyone bringing Americans down really...(you seem really out of you mind, asking people to get out of this country just because they have a little complain on their scaping skills (no one actually said that but your imagination is beyond comparison))...patriot...

And if you like statistical logic that much, don't say 99% of them are boring. If you want to imply many just say many. You literally make 99% of those who do Iwagumi think that they are making something boring. "Common logic". Maybe 99% of them aren't my cup of tea sounds better?



Bahugo said:


> It took me several attempts using different driftwood, different rocks, different plants over several months with several good scapes (and some poor attempts) until being happy with my scape. I still always keep an eye out for wood while I am at the LFS's in case I see that "wow I can't live without that piece".
> 
> I say don't give up. I learn something from every good scape, and several things from bad scapes each time, it's a learning process.
> 
> *I know there is a whole "philosophy" behind Iwagima scapes, but I just find 99% of them boring, comically copycatish, and repetitive. Am I saying I don't think they are nice? No there are some that are truly amazing, just not my cup of tea. Honestly, my biggest gripe with Iwagima scapes though, is that it looks the exact same (in 99% of scapes) without water, as it does with water. I could have an Iwagima scape in my emersed setup, why do I need it in my aquarium? Fish just look out of place 90% of the time because they are just swimming there in emptiness... My fish enjoy going in the plants.*


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## neueklare_ein (Jan 25, 2012)

roud:



Dollface said:


> Dry starts aren't just limited to iwagumi's though.


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## Booger (May 17, 2004)

Bahugo said:


> Maybe people should start helping, or step up and make better scapes themselves.


You first. We can't even talk about aquascaping without it turning into a flame war about intolerance and disrespect. :tongue:


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## neueklare_ein (Jan 25, 2012)

roud:



Booger said:


> You first. We can't even talk about aquascaping without it turning into a flame war about intolerance and disrespect. :tongue:


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## manini (Oct 18, 2007)

Aquascapes to me is simply an art form. If it looks good to you....then its good. Like art, there are tons of art critics out there that has their own opinion. In general, I've always wondered what made certain scapes more appealing than others or why most people like certain styles and dislike others. 

Nature has its ways of making thing look natural the way they do and we try to mimic it in our aquariums. Its all in the numbers. Here is a link that a friend of mine shared with me. 

Nature by Numbers. The Golden Ratio. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkGeOWYOFoA

I hope that this will inspire you in your next scape.


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## zchauvin (Apr 16, 2011)

Guys relaxxxxx haha, I love both types as I'm sure everyone else also does  I see iwugami as the more relaxing of the two while nature aquarium, while it has its own character- seems to be more involved and cluttered and also more intriguing 

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


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## Bahugo (Apr 18, 2011)

Booger said:


> You first. We can't even talk about aquascaping without it turning into a flame war about intolerance and disrespect. :tongue:


My scape sucks then? Thanks, glad I worked on it. 

I do try too help when I can.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

For those that don't appreciate the Iwagumi design, it might look better to you one day one when you tire of cutting and replanting stems, etc. You might develop a new appreciation for it.


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## EnigmaticGuppy92 (Jan 31, 2012)

i see attraction in both iwagumi and natural setups i have never done an iwagumi and will not judge until i do i feel that you have to try before you judge just because an individual feels something is boring does not make it boring for others i think that whatever sort of aquarist you are the health of the fauna should be A1 i appreciate both styles i have more connection with natural setups but i will not criticise iwagumi because of this it just makes me wanyt to find out more about it


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## prototyp3 (Dec 5, 2007)

neueklare_ein said:


> As a matter of fact, most people in the West do not understand Iwagumi. If one doesn't get the philosophy behind, it looks really horribly boring. But it's actually more than that...an iwagumi setup can be amazing, relaxing, insightful to some but stupid, dull, meaningless to others.


I disagree with this one.

Aquariums are displays, not temples. You don't need any deep lessons to appreciate a wonderful looking aquarium. Balance and composition reign supreme to a viewer, not some weird rule of having a subservient rock bowing to its master.

---

Back to the OP... It's all about practice and patience. You're comparing yourself to one of the leading aquascapers in the world, of course we're going to come up a little short. That would be like expecting to play basketball like Kobe Bryant with a year of part time practice. These people do this stuff as a career, they better be good at it!

There is also the matter of resources available to us. Some people have access to better materials (plants and hardscape) so that's often a huge hurdle. Sure it can be overcame, but at a cost most hobbyists cannot rightfully justify. 

We also need to remember a lot of these tanks look amazing for their photo session. They don't permanently exist in that perfect state. They have equipment in their tanks. They go through ugly stages too. (trimmings and grow out, even algae) They just don't show us those stages.


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## neueklare_ein (Jan 25, 2012)

Xxx


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## neueklare_ein (Jan 25, 2012)

Just want to clarify. I was just suggesting one of the many reasons why people might dislike it. I did not mean that people have to know to philosophy to appreciate it. In fact, I did say that people should respect it simply because someone spent some time arranging the rocks.

I don't think that we need lessons to appreciate temples either.












prototyp3 said:


> I disagree with this one.
> 
> Aquariums are displays, not temples. You don't need any deep lessons to appreciate a wonderful looking aquarium. Balance and composition reign supreme to a viewer, not some weird rule of having a subservient rock bowing to its master.


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## prototyp3 (Dec 5, 2007)

neueklare_ein said:


> I don't think that we need lessons to appreciate temples either.


But I've seen some ugly shoddy temples.. Definitely not pretty, but to be respected for what they are. 
Can't say I'd show that same respect for an ugly shoddy aquarium, as it's just an aquatic display. Make it pretty, even if that means putting a sunken ship in there with a Metallic poster behind it. roud:


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## neueklare_ein (Jan 25, 2012)

Definitely! Was just talking the most basic respect. Of coz there are many levels of respect.



prototyp3 said:


> But I've seen some ugly shoddy temples.. Definitely not pretty, but to be respected for what they are.
> Can't say I'd show that same respect for an ugly shoddy aquarium, as it's just an aquatic display. Make it pretty, even if that means putting a sunken ship in there with a Metallic poster behind it. roud:


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## kcartwright856 (Jan 16, 2012)

I have to admit that I didn't go through the entire thread, so my response is based on the thread title and the last two pages of posts.

I have a great amount of respect for Iwagumi scapes and their owners. It seems to me that it takes a tremendous amount of time and patience to find the perfect rocks in just the right arrangement, and then get those tweezers out to painstakingly place each tiny little carpet plant.

That said, it takes a tremendous amount of time and patience to do any scape for folks like me! I don't really even have a scape. I'm a beginner, and I just knew that I wanted lots of plants for my fish (and me) to enjoy. It took hours, and yet a lot of people on here could look at the pictures and be able to replicate my tank within a few moments.

About the pros and cons... well, there's personal style. I'm very eclectic. I don't really have a clean, polished, modern room where Iwagumi scapes tend to shine. I have a room with funky paint and mismatched objects from around the world that have caught my eye. My aquarium replicates this! I do still feel that a nice, clean Iwagumi scape is beautiful.


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## Booger (May 17, 2004)

prototyp3 said:


> Make it pretty, even if that means putting a sunken ship in there *with a Metallic poster behind it*. roud:



At first glance, I read that part as "Metallica Poster," which would be totally awesome.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

prototyp3 said:


> ...
> Back to the OP... It's all about practice and patience. You're comparing yourself to one of the leading aquascapers in the world, of course we're going to come up a little short. That would be like expecting to play basketball like Kobe Bryant with a year of part time practice. These people do this stuff as a career, they better be good at it!
> 
> There is also the matter of resources available to us. Some people have access to better materials (plants and hardscape) so that's often a huge hurdle. Sure it can be overcame, but at a cost most hobbyists cannot rightfully justify.
> ...


Great response on all counts. 

Many newbies are fooled into believing that the tank looks the way it does in the pic all the time. Some scapers are very anal with everything and they can look outstanding 90% of the time, but there are many that don't. The money pic is usually a notch above. 
.
As prototyp3 mentioned, experience and that fact that professional scapers do it for a living. They also have more time to invest and better inventory than most. Much easier to do a three rock iwagumi with a selection of 100 rocks then a selection of 10.


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## prototyp3 (Dec 5, 2007)

Booger said:


> At first glance, I read that part as "Metallica Poster," which would be totally awesome.


Oops, I missed the "a" as it was supposed to be those loveable metal heads!












houseofcards said:


> Great response on all counts.
> 
> Many newbies are fooled into believing that the tank looks the way it does in the pic all the time. Some scapers are very anal with everything and they can look outstanding 90% of the time, but there are many that don't. The money pic is usually a notch above.
> .
> As prototyp3 mentioned, experience and that fact that professional scapers do it for a living. They also have more time to invest and better inventory than most. Much easier to do a three rock iwagumi with a selection of 100 rocks then a selection of 10.


Not to mention these photographs are often taken with professional grade cameras and lighting setups, then Photoshopped to perfection. 
I found the hobby made me happiest when I just focused on what I enjoyed, and not trying to mimic these internet pictures. The tank is something I look at every day, no reason to stress out or spend money to make the internet community approve of my setup.


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## Bunfoo (Jan 14, 2012)

I've wanted to try an iwagumi for a while (Haven't we all seen that one really nice one?) but find my lack of talent (and rocks!) doesn't really let me. 

I appreciate the style and many of the tanks, but my personal preference leans to the use of driftwoods and natural colors and themes.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Seriously, Iwagumi is insanely difficult. 
If you are OCD, or nitpicky, etc, Iwagumi will be a love/hate relationship.
I can't tell you how many times I thought everything was perfect only to hate it a day or two later..


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Bahugo said:


> I have seen you mention this like three times (bolded part), you really took my sentence completely out of context.
> 
> That is why it is hard for me  *ME* too do an iwagumi scape. *Me personally.* I say that because there are so many threads on forums everywhere about "Dry start Iwagumi" then they fill it XX amount weeks later, and it is the identical tank. I enjoy watching a tank mature, trimming stem plants etc. I feel like dry start Iwagumi is the Flavor of the month.
> 
> ...



I will keep my mouth closed in regards to most of what you just said, but I had to say that a dry start isn't the flavor of the month. 
It is a functional way of getting a tank started that is almost required due to the difficulty of keeping a tank algae free when you only have one once of plant mass in the tank and your HC floats up constantly and refuses to root properly. 

Also the word is regardless.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Chlorophile said:


> I will keep my mouth closed in regards to most of what you just said, but I had to say that a dry start isn't the flavor of the month.
> It is a functional way of getting a tank started that is almost required due to the difficulty of keeping a tank algae free when you only have one once of plant mass in the tank and your HC floats up constantly and refuses to root properly.
> 
> Also the word is regardless.


I would agree its a functional method, but it is hardly required. Just like a scaper gains experience so does one in starting up iwagumi-type setups. There are also downsides to a dry start as well, but can be a better choice if one isn't available to cater to their tank during startup.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> I would agree its a functional method, but it is hardly required. Just like a scaper gains experience so does one in starting up iwagumi-type setups. There are also downsides to a dry start as well, but can be a better choice if one isn't available to cater to their tank during startup.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've attempted iwagumi in my Mini M 4 times now, excluding some "restarts" that occured because of some failure or another. 
Maybe my water has a lot of algal spores or something but it was damned impossible without a dry-start, for me. 
I lost my HC carpet so many times... 
I think if you are using glosso or lilaeopsis and lower light then a dry-start isn't needed, or hairgrass.. 
HC, not so much, but thats just from my personal experience.


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## zchauvin (Apr 16, 2011)

Well right now I have a cabinet shop making a Ada stand and I stressed to the t that I want it perfect lol. Once that is done( about 4-6 weeks) I will be buying a Ada light stand to replace my DIY conduit and then after that, I want to replace my gla 60l with a legitimate Ada 60p clear glass. Soo, on about 3 months I would have had lots of time to view my scape with all the stems growing in really nicely and then once all that is in place, I'll probably start the 60p with a iwugami and see what happens.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Chlorophile said:


> I've attempted iwagumi in my Mini M 4 times now, excluding some "restarts" that occured because of some failure or another.
> Maybe my water has a lot of algal spores or something but it was damned impossible without a dry-start, for me.
> I lost my HC carpet so many times...
> I think if you are using glosso or lilaeopsis and lower light then a dry-start isn't needed, or hairgrass..
> HC, not so much, but thats just from my personal experience.


Well again, I don't now what your experience is or what you exactly did during start-up. Some algae is normal, but nothing that shouldn't pass or wreck a setup if it is done the way an experienced person would do it. I've setup many iwagumi-type tanks with HC without using add'l plant mass and never had a major issue algae wise. My experience is nothing unique, as many other's obviously have had success prior to the popularity of the dry start. BTW HC does not require very high light, not really more so than lilaeopsis or glosso.


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## zchauvin (Apr 16, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> Well again, I don't now what your experience is or what you exactly did during start-up. Some algae is normal, but nothing that shouldn't pass or wreck a setup if it is done the way an experienced person would do it. I've setup many iwagumi-type tanks with HC without using add'l plant mass and never had a major issue algae wise. My experience is nothing unique, as many other's obviously have had success prior to the popularity of the dry start. BTW HC does not require very high light, not really more so than lilaeopsis or glosso.


When I had my mini s I had an iwugami setup with hair grass at first and then after that I had hc. When I got algae people always jumped and told me its the lighting thats on too long, or its too little co2 ect ect. I got rid of my entire setup and stopped trying the iwugami in my small tank after numerous people gave me what they thought was wrong and it never helped.. I was using 4 pumps of each micro and macro every day with only hair grass and hc. Guess how much I use with my fully planted 18g? 3 pumps every 3 days and its perfect. I was adding waaayyyy too much fertz to my tank and never knew it. Point is, its trial and error and only time will teach you. I would have never thought then and no one else could help me in the correct way, only now do I realize and several several frustrating months and attempts how to keep my tanks balanced. In other words, your tanks aren't balanced if you get algae that bad!!!  And house, is there anyway to put too much light for micro sword? Don't get me wrong, I bought all emersed growth and its all melting now after about 5 days in tank, I take it its usual and will sprout new growth but just want to check ahead.


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## zachary908 (Feb 12, 2011)

Settle down, guys. Surely the people here on TPT can debate in a civilized manner. Aren't we better than this?

Oh, and for the record. My tank (Torn down now) Was just a box of plants. :tongue:

My new tank is going to be a box of wood.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

For some reason, I love iwagumi style tanks but don't like natural style with driftwood, not sure why. I have never done a true iwagumi but hope some day I can get both the right stones, and the right placement to do one. I don't want to get into any arguments but if you have seen a truly well done iwagumi scape in person, it's not boring. Remember, their are usually living creatures in the tank as well.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

zchauvin said:


> When I had my mini s I had an iwugami setup with hair grass at first and then after that I had hc. When I got algae people always jumped and told me its the lighting thats on too long, or its too little co2 ect ect. I got rid of my entire setup and stopped trying the iwugami in my small tank after numerous people gave me what they thought was wrong and it never helped.. I was using 4 pumps of each micro and macro every day with only hair grass and hc. Guess how much I use with my fully planted 18g? 3 pumps every 3 days and its perfect. I was adding waaayyyy too much fertz to my tank and never knew it. Point is, its trial and error and only time will teach you.


Very true. It's always hard for someone else to pinpoint what ails one's tank. Your own experience's is the best solution. The typical answer here is usually co2/light, but that's far from bulletproof. In regards to iwagumi, upping co2 is only gonna get you so much. It's not an algaecide. If there's no plant mass to begin with what is upping co2 going to do? It's only effective since it can push uptake, how much uptake is a new iwagumi going to have. At startup especially you need a biofilter as fast as possible and you need clean water. The plants aren't much of a biofilter so you need to control organics. The best way I have found is to hit it from all sides. That means mulm, purigen, carbon, short light cycle, consistent water change, consistent trimming, dead plant material removal, nutrient needs met.



zchauvin said:


> And house, is there anyway to put too much light for micro sword? Don't get me wrong, I bought all emersed growth and its all melting now after about 5 days in tank, I take it its usual and will sprout new growth but just want to check ahead.


No, not realistically. The more light the more nutrients, co2, clean water, but your not gonna kill the plant because it has too much light on it. Same goes for most lowlight plants. They're lowlight because they can live in lowlight not because they'll die in highlight.


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## zchauvin (Apr 16, 2011)

Yeah, thanks thought so 

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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

> I know there is a whole "philosophy" behind Iwagima scapes, but I just find 99% of them boring, comically copycatish, and repetitive...my biggest gripe with Iwagima scapes though, is that it looks the exact same (in 99% of scapes) without water, as it does with water...Fish just look out of place 90% of the time because they are just swimming there in emptiness...


Unfortunately, 99% of scapes that are perceived as iwagumi scapes, are not really iwagumi scapes. 

That's not to be negative: it's just to say that at best, many people are practicing at one day achieving a true iwagumi. I would include myself in this lot. 

Just for reference, this is my iwagumi as it stands today (no photoshop, just a quick mobile video).

We could say iwagumi is just a pile of rocks, and i'm totally okay with that. A house is just a pile of brick or plywood (now-a-days anyway). A car is just a pile of aluminum and plastic. The internet is just a pile of opinions. 

*Why most layouts are not in fact iwagumi layouts.*

First, let's define one thing: there are iwagumi layouts, and then there are _iwagumi layouts._

The former is built on a simple principle: some rock, a carpet plant and a stone that is placed in some way, shape or form caters to the almighty _"golden ratio."_ Put another way: it's a word that describes a certain setup.

That kind of layout is one thing: a stone layout and nothing more. It *is a pile of rocks*. Most of those layouts *are hopelessly repetitive.* To be frank, these layouts are the equivalent of finger-painting before we move on to Art 101. *And we all start there.* To put it another way, we can say that these are the first step in *developing the skill* for a true iwagumi. 

The latter, _iwagumi layouts_ is very simple yet again, and most, if not all, at some point confuse the true _iwagumi layout_ with philosophy. 

*Iwagumi is not philosophy.* Iwagumi is _*mastery*_ of the *technique* of the planted aquarium. The philosophical viewpoint *follows *the mastery of technique. 

It is in ways the ultimate test of skill. As you 'stair-step' through mastery, you increasingly will see other layouts for being messy, or identify their problems on the spot. 

It's about *balance*, and creating it at all levels. 

A _true iwagumi_, may have shared characteristics of other iwagumi layouts, but at the end of the day, that isn't the impression you take away from them. It only uses hair grass, which is commonly available, and stone that by themselves is no more special than most available. So, if you can honestly look at my layout posted in the video and say it looks like every other 'iwagumi,' layout, then I don't know what to tell you.

It's almost sad to say that the truth of the matter is, it's either something you see or you don't see. Which is totally fine, there is no universal thing that everyone has the vision for. Except maybe drinking water. That's a pretty universal one.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Francis Xavier said:


> ...
> A _true iwagumi_, may have shared characteristics of other iwagumi layouts, but at the end of the day, that isn't the impression you take away from them. *It only uses hair grass, which is commonly available,* and stone that by themselves is no more special than most available. So, if you can honestly look at my layout posted in the video and say it looks like every other 'iwagumi,' layout, then I don't know what to tell you..
> .


I'm a little confused by your post. Are you saying it's really not accurate to describe many tanks that have a main rock and a formation and species of foreground plants other than hairgrass as Iwagumi? Who's definition is this?


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## xgteen (Mar 7, 2012)

It doesn't seem right to criticize any styles in particular...


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

houseofcards said:


> I'm a little confused by your post. Are you saying it's really not accurate to describe many tanks that have a main rock and a formation and species of foreground plants other than hairgrass as Iwagumi? Who's definition is this?


Oh god no, my only point by what you quoted is to say that the materials are commonly available or not particularly rare. E.g: take one aquarium with rocks and hair grass next to an iwagumi with rocks and hair grass and they won't look similar or copy cat syndrome.

The point of the post is two classifications of iwagumi:

One: Development, the aquascaper is learning the basis for what will one day be a great iwagumi. This is where you see people beginning to use the concept of main stone, supporting stones, composition, etc. It's usually focused on just one plant type; which enables mastery of how that plant grows (which will later on feed into being able to put together complex combinations of plants to achieve different looks). 

Two: Total Mastery of techniques. This is the true definition of 'iwagumi,' the mastery of how each plant grows, the precise placement of stone, the exact balance of the ecosystem. In other words the attainment of harmony within the landscape. Exact pruning, trimming, etc. This is where you can use the same plants, same stone type, etc. over and over while maintaining total uniqueness. I don't think there are any Americans currently in this category. 

Mastery of Classification Two means you can pretty much pull off any aquascape with any layout style. It just so happens that these traits are hyper-emphasized and usually are attained quicker and more skillfully through manipulation of iwagumi, due to the exacting needs.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> Well again, I don't now what your experience is or what you exactly did during start-up. Some algae is normal, but nothing that shouldn't pass or wreck a setup if it is done the way an experienced person would do it. I've setup many iwagumi-type tanks with HC without using add'l plant mass and never had a major issue algae wise. My experience is nothing unique, as many other's obviously have had success prior to the popularity of the dry start. BTW HC does not require very high light, not really more so than lilaeopsis or glosso.


Yea I agree. 
I don't have any idea why it never worked very well for me. 
I had rhizoclonium, which was very very persistent and smothered everything. 
=[

My hc gets far too leggy under the sort of light I would grow lilaeopsis under, glosso would also get too leggy for me though. 
I trim like crazy but still, the actual growth patterns of HC under lower light is very poor, no rooting, floats away.. IME.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

My favorite Iwagumi of all time - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX4x4jF2DnU


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## zchauvin (Apr 16, 2011)

Looks really nice and deff saves on aquasoil haha 

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## youjettisonme (Dec 24, 2010)

Chlorophile said:


> My favorite Iwagumi of all time - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX4x4jF2DnU


That is as good as you will see. There is a single, simple to distinguish focal point. The rocks, in their asymmetry, still project amazing flow. Most of the rocks are nuzzled up against each other with only the single plant, the hairgrass (dwarf and tall), dividing them. It also projects open space as only about 30% of the tank is taken up by flora and hardscape. Finally, the green of the grass is contrasted perfectly with the whiteness of the sand. So many elements in tune to create a great scape.


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## youjettisonme (Dec 24, 2010)

BTW, I have never seen an "art" debate end up with someone somehow "winning" the debate. The only _winners _end up being the people that don't participate. ;-)

For serious, I am just happy that we have so many passionate people who are willing to explore. That's what makes life so interesting.


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## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

Iwagumi tanks, in my opinion, are the pinnacle of relaxation and simplicity. I can't really put it into words, but an iwagumi tank, done right, just is... relaxing. 

My all time-favorite iwagumi tank is/was bsk's "Treeless Mountain." Oh wait, now it's _my_ treeless mountain and I get to look at it every day. Kudos to bsk for producing such an original, simple scape.



> *"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." --Steve Jobs*


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

youjettisonme said:


> That is as good as you will see. There is a single, simple to distinguish focal point. The rocks, in their asymmetry, still project amazing flow. Most of the rocks are nuzzled up against each other with only the single plant, the hairgrass (dwarf and tall), dividing them. It also projects open space as only about 30% of the tank is taken up by flora and hardscape. Finally, the green of the grass is contrasted perfectly with the whiteness of the sand. So many elements in tune to create a great scape.


Exactly.. When I saw that tank for the first time I was breathless.


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## samamorgan (Dec 31, 2011)

The general theme of this thread so far seems to be completely self defeating. Posting your opinion on whether you think iwagumi or nature aquarium is better/worse/has its place is completely irrelevant and non-contributional. Form, function, style, and composition are completely relative when under the artisti microscope. All personal objects are just forms of human expression, a trait we have all shared for the last 200,000 years when we evolved into **** sapiens sapiens. Expression isn't judgeable because it's only relative to the individual and how it makes that individual feel. Whether someone else likes it or not is insignificant.

And here's an example. I have seen many aquascapes on this forum under the title "what do you think about XX?" that i would call just plain ugly. Did i tell the poster what i thought? No, that would be plain rude. Was it ugly to him? No, or he wouldnt be posting a what do you think thread. I do give advice on what i think might improve the scape or not, but those changes might make it ugly for him.

Not sure if i'm getting my point across or just babbling at this point.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Well the idea of the thread was a good one, 'Pros and Cons', which really could be anything from Maintenance, Visual, Long-term Satisfaction differences between Iwagumi and a traditional NA, but when it moves to an Art type debate than it's a no-win battle.


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