# Five picos together



## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

Very cool, are you breeding bettas? How'd you setup the filtration?


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## atom (Sep 28, 2011)

Awesome. Do they all have Bettas and what kind of plants? Looks great.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

*The setup*

5 x 2.25 gallon cylindrical vases 15" high x 7" diameter
Marineland - ML Double Bright LED Light, 36-Inch to 48-Inch
CaribSea - Eco Complete Black Planted Aquarium Substrate 20 lbs
5 x Hydor - THEO Submersible Aquarium Heater 25W UL

Filtration:
Active Aqua - Air Pump 4 Outlets 10W 15L/min
5 x Lee`s Aquarium - 2gal Undergravel Filter 5in
Penn-Plax - Lok-Tite 5-outlet Air Regulator Gang Valve for Aquariums
Two Little Fishies - 12 Piece Aquatic Micro Airline Hose Fittings
2 x Penn-Plax - 25' Standard 3/16" Flexible Airline Tubing for Aquariums
4 x Tom Suction Cup for flexible airline tubing 4 pcs

What I didn't use:

TOM Aquarium - Hang-on-the-Tank Rapids Mini Canister - 80 gph [The pump motor was DOA. Seller was out of stock, so could not replace. Returned for refund. I had intended to test this one unit for useability in these 2.25 gallon setups, but feared it would still have too much water flow. I settled on trying it with undergavel filters for reliability, cost, and appearance.]
Lee's - Flex Aquarium Tubing, Clear, 1/2-Inch by 100-Foot [keeping it for future use]


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## FisheriesOmen (Jan 14, 2012)

That's really cool! I was thinking of doing the same thing except lower tech and it would all be Glass Bowls either way very nice! you know how to treat a plant right


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

Very cool. Looks awesome!


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

scottwww said:


> 5 x 2.25 gallon cylindrical vases 15" high x 7" diameter
> Marineland - ML Double Bright LED Light, 36-Inch to 48-Inch


Interesting to see how you got that light mounted?

And holy filtration!

You should hang a black sheet of contact paper or something on the back for more contrast


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

xenxes said:


> Interesting to see how you got that light mounted?
> 
> And holy filtration!
> 
> You should hang a black sheet of contact paper or something on the back for more contrast


For the light, it's not the final setup. I have a 7" diameter clear glass plate (from the dollar store) on top of each vase. Right now, the light is just sitting on top of that. The plan is to build a wooden cabinet with a back, sides, canopy, and maybe a base. I would probably want to also have a false back in the cabinet for the black or colored background, and with the power cords and airlines falling between the false back and the back of the cabinet. Then these cords and tubes would all exit the cabinet at one spot, together, keeping a cleaner appearance.

The air pump is too powerful. Even turned down to minimum, I am still using the gang valves to limit the air volume. Turned up to max, it pumps so much air, it is like a jacczzi in all five bowls! And the pump isn't quiet enough for me. I'll get a smaller and quieter pump soon.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

*Softscape*



atom said:


> Awesome. Do they all have Bettas and what kind of plants? Looks great.


Thanks for the compliment! I like these already, and hope they grow well.

Number 1:
Windelov Java Fern (Microsorium pteropus) [Top Fin - Small Live Aquarium Plant]
Hornwort (Cerontophyllum Demersum) [Petco miscellaneous plants]
Microsword (Lilaeopsis brasiliensis)

Number 2:
lead weighted cutting [Petco miscellaneous plants]
Peacock Fern Plants (Selaginella wildenowii) [Top Fin - Live Plants For Aquariums and Tropical Terrarioums]
Green Cryptocoryne (Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Green')
Microsword (Lilaeopsis brasiliensis)

Number 3:
Bacopa (Bacopa caroliniana)
Microsword (Lilaeopsis brasiliensis)

Number 4:
Fast growing plant taken from another aquarium.
Microsword (Lilaeopsis brasiliensis)

Number 5:
lead weighted cutting [Petco miscellaneous plants]
Green Cryptocoryne (Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Green')
Microsword (Lilaeopsis brasiliensis)


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

*Fish population*



xenxes said:


> Very cool, are you breeding bettas? How'd you setup the filtration?


Breeding bettas sounds like an interesting idea. I don't know what I would do with them, if I were breeding them. The original idea was to have a betta in each bowl, and maybe some other assorted companions. Here is what occupies these bowls right now...

Number 1 (wife's picks):
2 x some kind of Cory Cat
2 x Fancy Guppy (male)

Number 2:
5 x Glowlight Tetra

Number 3 (daughter's picks):
2 x Glass Cats

Number 4:
Betta

Number 5:
Betta


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## Petrie (Dec 30, 2011)

that looks awsome, gotta add this to my new list of "oh man I gotta do that some day"


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## FisheriesOmen (Jan 14, 2012)

wow glass cats work well in a 2.5g? Man i really underestimate the size of those things....overall good job ^^


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

FisheriesOmen said:


> wow glass cats work well in a 2.5g? Man i really underestimate the size of those things....overall good job ^^


LOL. Maybe they will not work in this small environment.

She picked out the two smallest glass cats in the store. If they get to looking like they need a different environment, then they'll be moved to her 20 gallon tank. It's pretty stable after two years operation.

Maybe that move will be made sooner rather than later after picking alternate stock for her bowl. The light level in these is pretty high, compared to the 20 gallon tank. I read one description of glass cats that stated they prefer more subdued lighting.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Are all the tanks parameters about the same? You could probably get away with a larger canister filter and then chain together all your tanks. And then mod the discharge from the filter into each tank. That would save you tons of time during WC's (as draining from one tank would drain from all of them) and electricity (driving only one canister filter instead of all of those). Just a suggestion!

But 5 tanks in a row ALWAYS looks cool


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## TexasCichlid (Jul 12, 2011)

Cool Betta or shrimp tanks there.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> Are all the tanks parameters about the same? You could probably get away with a larger canister filter and then chain together all your tanks. And then mod the discharge from the filter into each tank. That would save you tons of time during WC's (as draining from one tank would drain from all of them) and electricity (driving only one canister filter instead of all of those). Just a suggestion!
> 
> But 5 tanks in a row ALWAYS looks cool


Originally I had been trying to figure out how to use one canister filter for all five of these betta bowls. But I just couldn't dream up a plan to have it cycle water to and from all five simultaneously without overflowing some of them, and sucking others dry. Do you have a link, or a search terminology, to get information on how to do this? I had in mind that filtering and heating would all be centralized with one canister.

Since I couldn't figure that out, and I went the route of heaters and filters for each bowl, it may end up working best as I could try to tweak the environmental variables to be optimized for plants and livestock. I'll have to find all the info on what is best practices for individual plants and fish, and try to get each bowl setup that way. But lighting variables may not be quite as doable unless simply tinting glass covers as light filters to give the desired light level. This would not likely be effective in adjusting color temperature.

I'm getting beyond the present scope of this project thinking about these kind of details... but the single canister filter sounds like a good idea if it is workable.


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## atom (Sep 28, 2011)

The five look great together. If you can figure out how to use just one canister filter it will be even slicker and cleaner. I am sure that will be quite the feat if you manage it.

Btw, any close ups of the flora or fauna? Love to see the bettas.


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## FisheriesOmen (Jan 14, 2012)

personally I'm getting sick of bettas :/ But still love the picos


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

scottwww said:


> Originally I had been trying to figure out how to use one canister filter for all five of these betta bowls. But I just couldn't dream up a plan to have it cycle water to and from all five simultaneously without overflowing some of them, and sucking others dry. Do you have a link, or a search terminology, to get information on how to do this? I had in mind that filtering and heating would all be centralized with one canister.
> 
> Since I couldn't figure that out, and I went the route of heaters and filters for each bowl, it may end up working best as I could try to tweak the environmental variables to be optimized for plants and livestock. I'll have to find all the info on what is best practices for individual plants and fish, and try to get each bowl setup that way. But lighting variables may not be quite as doable unless simply tinting glass covers as light filters to give the desired light level. This would not likely be effective in adjusting color temperature.
> 
> I'm getting beyond the present scope of this project thinking about these kind of details... but the single canister filter sounds like a good idea if it is workable.


http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/t...ha-more-tanks-4-dirt-tanks-4.html#post1584317 This is the setup I'm talking about. You can make it look much better with some clear PVC or vinyl tubing, or even drill some holes in the glass.

Yeah your advantage with the different systems for each tank allows for different parameters, but it will make you use 3x the amount of electricity and 5x the effort when doing WC's haha.


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## chumblaka (Jan 4, 2010)

What a neat set up, you should add some shrimp to the tanks!

I have a question on those heaters. What are the dimensions on them and how well are they keeping the right temps in that tank size? I am looking for a heater for my 2.5 gallon. Thanks!


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

chumblaka said:


> What a neat set up, you should add some shrimp to the tanks!
> 
> I have a question on those heaters. What are the dimensions on them and how well are they keeping the right temps in that tank size? I am looking for a heater for my 2.5 gallon. Thanks!


These heaters seem to be pretty good, so far. I haven't noticed much fluctuation. The odd thing is that you turn the knob counter-clockwise to raise the temperature, rather than clockwise. Once I figured that out, then no trouble.:icon_smil: It's about 6-1/2 inches long.

I bought three of these Hydor Theo 25w heaters at Amazon.com ($18.35 each), and two of them at wag.com ($19.99 each).

There aren't that many shrimp to pick from at local pet stores. I was thinking of maybe buying fish through a web seller, but I am skeptical about getting them to arrive alive. Same goes for shrimp. :icon_sad:


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

scottwww said:


> There aren't that many shrimp to pick from at local pet stores. I was thinking of maybe buying fish through a web seller, but I am skeptical about getting them to arrive alive. Same goes for shrimp. :icon_sad:


You should really buy some shrimp from this forum. There's professional shippers here.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/t...ha-more-tanks-4-dirt-tanks-4.html#post1584317 This is the setup I'm talking about. You can make it look much better with some clear PVC or vinyl tubing, or even drill some holes in the glass.
> 
> Yeah your advantage with the different systems for each tank allows for different parameters, but it will make you use 3x the amount of electricity and 5x the effort when doing WC's haha.


Thanks for the link. It's something to keep in mind for a different project. But I would still be afraid of losing a siphon and flooding the room. Maybe a safer way would be to drill the bottoms of the vases and set them up with a sump system. But again, for me, that's a future project at best. That would be an interesting way to do it.


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

diwu13 said:


> You should really buy some shrimp from this forum. There's professional shippers here.


+1 You'll get way healthier and cheaper shrimps from SnS and most sellers on here give DOA on the shrimps. When I started, I've purchased crappy CRS and Yellows for $7-$9 dollars from LFS. They are 1/2 that price here on TPT.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

scottwww said:


> Thanks for the link. It's something to keep in mind for a different project. But I would still be afraid of losing a siphon and flooding the room. Maybe a safer way would be to drill the bottoms of the vases and set them up with a sump system. But again, for me, that's a future project at best. That would be an interesting way to do it.


If you lose siphon the water won't overflow since it's just using gravity/pressure to circulate the water. That is, if you do a WC all you have to do is drain water from one tank, and ALL tanks will have their water level lowered. It's really neat and fool proof


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## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

Good lookin tanks man. I love it. It almost looks like one continuous tank with the way the plant scape ended up. One thing I will say is this, the peacock fern will not survive submerged. Take it out of there, stick it in a planter pot and dump it in a window or outside if it is warm enough. Other then that, good job, and keep it up.:icon_smil


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

atom said:


> Btw, any close ups of the flora or fauna? Love to see the bettas.


So, I snapped a few pictures and cropped to size.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

cableguy69846 said:


> Good lookin tanks man. I love it. It almost looks like one continuous tank with the way the plant scape ended up. One thing I will say is this, the peacock fern will not survive submerged. Take it out of there, stick it in a planter pot and dump it in a window or outside if it is warm enough. Other then that, good job, and keep it up.:icon_smil


Had I known about the peacock fern before hand, I wouldn't have bought it. It's just about dead. Now I know why. Thanks for the tip!


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## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

scottwww said:


> Had I known about the peacock fern before hand, I wouldn't have bought it. It's just about dead. Now I know why. Thanks for the tip!


No problem man. I did the same thing. I want to get some again and put it in a pot in the window though and see how it does. It is a cool plant and from what I have read, will get massive.

Good lookin fish too.:icon_smil


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Hm... are those male bettas in those two tanks right next to each other? Do they flare up a lot or can they not see each other through the two panes with reflection?


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> Hm... are those male bettas in those two tanks right next to each other? Do they flare up a lot or can they not see each other through the two panes with reflection?


Apparently they can see very well. They flare at each other quite a lot. Before I added heaters, filters, and light, they slept a lot. That's about all they would do was sleep. Now, they are pretty interesting to watch.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

They wont' get injured repeatedly bumping into the glass? Or do they not try to fight each other?


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> They wont' get injured repeatedly bumping into the glass? Or do they not try to fight each other?


LOL. I don't know.

The disadvantage of not having square sides is that you may have to adjust your angle of view to see anything.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Oh true, so they would only be able to see each other in a little bit of the glass.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

Just brought home 5 Ember Tetras. I hadn't noticed these at the pet stores before. Aand almost got some tiny red Rasbora. But I thought they might not get along with a betta. What I would like are some Galaxy Rasbora to put in with the Glowlight Tetras to make them (the tetras) look big. :icon_lol:


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

How many tetras are you gonna put per tank? Technically you should only be putting 2.5 lol, but you got tons of filtration though...


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## atom (Sep 28, 2011)

Very very nice! I guess the benefit of a tall circular tank is that the bettas won't be able to view each other all the time. That could stress them out.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> How many tetras are you gonna put per tank? Technically you should only be putting 2.5 lol, but you got tons of filtration though...


Isn't the general rule something like 1 inch of fish per gallon? That would be tough to do. I guess I will just add what I want, and see how it goes. I think five tetras with one betta is pretty good. If I can get some of those itty-bitty rasboras, then there should be room for a good school of them, but no betta.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

atom said:


> Very very nice! I guess the benefit of a tall circular tank is that the bettas won't be able to view each other all the time. That could stress them out.


I think they see each other well enough. they flare at each other a lot, which is always interesting to see. I just hope the little Ember Tetras will be safe. I figured they were big enough to be out of danger, but that betta keeps looking as if he likes to hunt.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

scottwww said:


> Isn't the general rule something like 1 inch of fish per gallon? That would be tough to do. I guess I will just add what I want, and see how it goes. I think five tetras with one betta is pretty good. If I can get some of those itty-bitty rasboras, then there should be room for a good school of them, but no betta.


Yea, that's the general rule but if you over filtrate your tank and have a large colony of BB form you can easily overstock. But you should gradually increase the bioload so the BB can increase accordingly If you throw in like 4 tetras with the betta they might all die. But if you put in two tetra, wait a week, then another two, you'll allow the BB to grow according to the ammonia/nitrite generation.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

The plants are growing very fast in these little tanks. Algae has started to grow as well. I guess I will need to limit the number of hours the lights are on. Other than experimentation, is there guidance for how much to limit the light cycle?

Other changes are that my wife bought a Betta for tank number 1. It didn't take long before the Guppies tails were getting shredded. So, I have moved the Guppies to tank number 2 where they should live at peace with the Glowlight Tetras.

Today I added 13 Mosquito Rasbora (Boraras brigittae) to tank number 3. These guys are tiny. The store where I bought these had them labeled as Red Fin Rasbora. Examing them with a magnifying glass, and comparing with pictures on the internet, they are definitely Mosquito Rasbora. I assume they will be both safe with the Glass Cats, and they will also not be stressful for the cats.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

I find generally 6-7 hours is plenty enough for plants to grow. Never had huge algae issues with that amount of lighting. When I went to 8 hours initially I had BGA growing on the glass of my tanks :X

New updated picture with all the tanks and fauna?


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> I find generally 6-7 hours is plenty enough for plants to grow. Never had huge algae issues with that amount of lighting. When I went to 8 hours initially I had BGA growing on the glass of my tanks :X
> 
> New updated picture with all the tanks and fauna?


Six to seven hours doesn't sound like much. I guess how long the light cycle should be will depend upon many variables, like light intensity, color temperature, oxygen/carbon dioxide levels, plant density, and maybe water qualities... I'll have to search through the how-to threads, or just trial and error.

New pictures coming up next.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

These are the "betta bowls" or "pico tanks" or whatever they should be called. I made individual pictures rather than a group picture.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

And here are the newest inhabitants. This is the betta my wife brought home for tank number 1.


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## atom (Sep 28, 2011)

Beautiful setups. Love the bettas.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

I never did show a picture of the Glowlight Tetras. They were really shy and hiding behind the plants until they decided it was OK to be seen a couple days ago. But their water is murky with what I believe to be algae. 

There is also algae on the glass. I added a snail today to this tank. Also, added a snall to tank 3 as it has even worse algae in suspended in the water, and some on the glass. Unless the snails become a necessary part of each of these tanks, I'll move them around as needed, and possible take one or both out to resettle them in an established 20 gallon tank that grows algae on the glass.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

The Mosquito Rasbora in tank number 3 are super tiny. Apparently they max out at about 20 mm in length. There were 13 of them when I bought a baker's dozen (paid for twelve and got thirteen). I have found two dead  which isn't bad for all these fish in these little tanks, that hadn't really gone through a full nitrogen cycle, yet.

We're just impatient about populating their space. These little guys are accompanied by a couple small glass catfish.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

These I just brought home today. They are Black Phantom Tetras. I believe I have a female on the left, and a male on the right. They are in with my biggest betta in tank number 4. The betta was chasing them around for a little while after they were first introduced. They seem to be getting along alright now. Maybe the betta realized he was too slow to catch these guys, like it seems the betta in tank 5 doesn't chase the Ember Tetras any longer.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

And finally the Ember Tetras. I really like these guys. They are smaller than the Glowlight Tetras, but much larger than the Mosquito Rasbora. I like their color. They also group together really well. In a few days, I may just pick up a few more while they have them at the fish store.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Yea it's looking like you're getting some green water in your tank. I know that plants grow when light is present (kinda obvious lol) but if there isn't enough nutrients in the water for plant growth, like nitrates are used up, then algae will start to grow in it's place using whatever remaining nutrients are left over. The fact that you are getting some algae indicates your lighting cycle is too long, or the light is too close. For my 6-7 hours I dose ferts sparingly and have 6500K 2x 15W bulbs over my tanks. I should switch out the 15W to 10W and then I can light for longer, with lower intensity.

Since your tanks are not fully cycled you should consider adding some "Tetra safestart" to your tanks. That stuff works really well. But make sure you buy one that isn't expired, as they go bad really fast.

Finally.. you can attach pictures IN your text if you click on the "insert image" link. This lets your narrate between pictures instead of having text, then pictures.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> Yea it's looking like you're getting some green water in your tank. I know that plants grow when light is present (kinda obvious lol) but if there isn't enough nutrients in the water for plant growth, like nitrates are used up, then algae will start to grow in it's place using whatever remaining nutrients are left over. The fact that you are getting some algae indicates your lighting cycle is too long, or the light is too close. For my 6-7 hours I dose ferts sparingly and have 6500K 2x 15W bulbs over my tanks. I should switch out the 15W to 10W and then I can light for longer, with lower intensity.
> 
> Since your tanks are not fully cycled you should consider adding some "Tetra safestart" to your tanks. That stuff works really well. But make sure you buy one that isn't expired, as they go bad really fast.
> 
> Finally.. you can attach pictures IN your text if you click on the "insert image" link. This lets your narrate between pictures instead of having text, then pictures.


Thanks for the suggestions.

The PH in each of these five tanks all measured at the highest mark of at least 7.6 PH. My daughters well-established, and healthy, 20 gallon tank measured 6.8 PH.

I just added two teaspoons of Tetra SafeStart to each tanks. Also, I added about 2 to 3 ml of Aqueon Aquarium Plant Food to each.

What I didn't do was use the Tetra Algae Control that I just picked up. I want to see what happens to the algae in the next few days with these other changes and an adjustment to the light cycle. Also, the two snails that are intended to be shared between the five tanks should have something to eat... though that could be resolved with algae wafers.

About the pictures... Is there a limit on how much space you can use for uploaded pictures? I noticed that there is a red/green indicator as to how much space is used for pictures - and it's getting more red. At this rate, it will not take long to use up all the available space for uploads.


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## bsk (Aug 18, 2010)

that looks really cool


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## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

scottwww said:


> About the pictures... Is there a limit on how much space you can use for uploaded pictures? I noticed that there is a red/green indicator as to how much space is used for pictures - and it's getting more red. At this rate, it will not take long to use up all the available space for uploads.


There is a limit. Can't remember what it is. Usually we all use a picture hosting site, like Flickr, Photobucket, ect, ect, and paste the Image code in our post so it can be seen. Much easier to do. And I think you can add image room on this site by buying a membership, but I am not sure on that one.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

scottwww said:


> Thanks for the suggestions.
> 
> The PH in each of these five tanks all measured at the highest mark of at least 7.6 PH. My daughters well-established, and healthy, 20 gallon tank measured 6.8 PH.
> 
> ...





cableguy69846 said:


> There is a limit. Can't remember what it is. Usually we all use a picture hosting site, like Flickr, Photobucket, ect, ect, and paste the Image code in our post so it can be seen. Much easier to do. And I think you can add image room on this site by buying a membership, but I am not sure on that one.


Does your daughters tank have driftwood or anything else that releases tannins? The pH shouldn't really fluctuate between an established tank and one that isn't. Tannins, CO2, and active substrate are the main things that can swing the pH in tanks that are using the same water source.

Sounds good on the control testing with the different products. I know the Tetra algae control will kill inverts, so your snails might die dosing that.

And as cableguy said, we use other photo hosting sites and then you "right-click" on the photo and get the image URL. Then you paste that in where the text is. I use facebook !


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> Does your daughters tank have driftwood or anything else that releases tannins? The pH shouldn't really fluctuate between an established tank and one that isn't. Tannins, CO2, and active substrate are the main things that can swing the pH in tanks that are using the same water source.
> 
> Sounds good on the control testing with the different products. I know the Tetra algae control will kill inverts, so your snails might die dosing that.
> 
> And as cableguy said, we use other photo hosting sites and then you "right-click" on the photo and get the image URL. Then you paste that in where the text is. I use facebook !


This is how the 20 gallon tank looked Jan. 27, 2010. That was shortly after initial setup. (The spotlight effect is just because of the three flash units I used to illuminate the picture.)










By Oct. 5, 2010 the driftwood was added. It was Mopani wood from Petco, I believe. The HOB filter was replaced with a canister when this picture was taken.










And this is the way it looks today. It's been since about Christmas that it has been illuminated with a Marineland Double Bright LED, rather than the T5 that came with it.










Water for the betta bowls and the 20 gallon tank is all from my RO filter.


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## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

That is a lot of java fern man.:hihi:


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

cableguy69846 said:


> That is a lot of java fern man.:hihi:


We've been talking about giving it a good pruning. Just haven't gotten around to it yet. :smile: That is the same Java Fern that's been there for two years.


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## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

scottwww said:


> We've been talking about giving it a good pruning. Just haven't gotten around to it yet. :smile: That is the same Java Fern that's been there for two years.


Java fern will get massive if you let it. I have stuff that I have had for a couple of years now too. It is great.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Glad you figured out how to add photos! But that mopani wood will definitely leech tannins causing a drop in pH. Have you tested the pH straight out of your tap? It's probably going to be ~7.4


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## atom (Sep 28, 2011)

I can't java fern alive. Do they require high nitrates because they always turn brown on me.

Nice lush growth btw.


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## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

atom said:


> I can't java fern alive. Do they require high nitrates because they always turn brown on me.
> 
> Nice lush growth btw.


Are you using any ferts in the water column at all?


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## synthorange (Feb 1, 2012)

I thought the only way to kill java fern was to either burn it alive or bury the roots.


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## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

synthorange said:


> I thought the only way to kill java fern was to either burn it alive or bury the roots.


:hihi:


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

Here is an updated photo of the five "betta bowls" today. 










Algae has been a bit of a problem. Snails and a more limited light cycle may reduce the algae. A little aquarium plant food and driftwood have been added.

The two newest pieces of driftwood (in number 1 and number 3) were first boiled in a pressure cooker for a few hours to remove much of the tannins. The drifwood in number 2 and number 4 was bought from the local fish store taken from an aquarium looking like it was already seasoned for use. In number 1, it still looks like the tannins are coloring the water, so I must have needed to pressure cook again. But in person, this may be the best looking water of the five bowls, though maybe number 5 which is the clearest still looks best.

Bowl number 1 and number 5 don't have nearly as much algae as 2, 3 and 4. I am sure this is because there are half as many of these double-bright LEDs directly over them at the ends of the fixture.

The intent is still to build a cabinet around this five bowl display. I still have to make a detailed plan for the design before buying the materials. All in all, I like what is going on here.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Keep us informed with the planning of the cabinet. Maybe leave some extra room for a couple more of the 2.5G bowls for the future haha?


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

I am thinking of what type of plant would go well on top of the driftwood in tank # 3. It's kind of a platform with a lot of space sloping upward toward the back-right. This gives quite a bit of shaded area under here for fish that like the shadows. Maybe somthing red/brown/orange/yellow... other than green for this one spot.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Hm.. ludwigia grows red leaves and isn't super picky either. Other besides that I'm not too familiar with non-green plants :X.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

The wood in tank number 1 leached a lot of tannins into the water in just a few days, making it too brown for the liking. I moved it to tank five. It may be that it will need to be pressure cooked more to reduce further the amount of coloration it will introduce to this small amount of water.

Other changes were to add a Banana plant and another Cryptocoryne to tank number 3. To tank 4, an Anubias and a Bleheri were added

The algae is reducing slowly in the water. The snails seem to be doing a good job of cleaning the algae from the plants, and to an extent, from the glass.










The cat likes to watch the fish.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Very cool project! Those are neat vases/bowls for this application for sure.

-Andrew


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

If you test the pH of the bowl with the most tannins you should find the pH considerably lower.

You should update the first post of this journal with the current flora and fauna of each tank!


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> If you test the pH of the bowl with the most tannins you should find the pH considerably lower.


So far, the only changes in PH are in tank 2 and tank 3. Tank 2 has dropped from 7.6+ to 7.2. Tank 3 has dropped from 7.6+ to 6.6. The other three have remained at 7.6+ PH. 

RO water out of the tap measured 6.4 which is the same as the reading of my daughter's 20 gallon tank. 

One day last week, when adding driftwood to one of the tanks, I used some water (maybe 1/2 gallon) from the pressure cooker. It was a brown about as dark as watered down coffee, or strong tea. The PH on that 1/2 gallon was measured at 6.8 PH, and I don't see how it could have accounted for the drop to 6.4 PH in tank 3. I'm not sure it was tank 3 I had added it to anyway. Initially I had been thinking it was tank 1 because the water had become so brown... I should have made a written note at the time the brown water was added.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> You should update the first post of this journal with the current flora and fauna of each tank!


*Softscape*

*Number 1*:

Windelov Java Fern (Microsorium pteropus) [Top Fin - Small Live Aquarium Plant] [added 1/1/12]
Hornwort (Cerontophyllum demersum) [Petco miscellaneous plants] [added 1/22/12]
Microsword (Lilaeopsis brasiliensis) [added 1/21/12]

*Number 2*:

lead weighted cutting [Petco miscellaneous plants] [added 1/22/12]
Peacock Fern Plants (Selaginella wildenowii) [Top Fin - Live Plants For Aquariums and Tropical Terrariums] [added 1/1/12] [removed 1/26/12]
Green Cryptocoryne (Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Green') [added 1/21/12]
Microsword (Lilaeopsis brasiliensis) [added 1/21/12] 

*Number 3*:

Bacopa (Bacopa caroliniana) [added 1/21/12]
Cryptocoryne (Cryptocoryne wendtii) [added 1/21//12]
Cryptocoryne (Cryptocoryne wendtii) [added 2/4//12]
Banana Plant (Nymphoides aquatica) [added 2/4/12]
Microsword (Lilaeopsis brasiliensis) [added 1/21/12] 

*Number 4*:

Fast growing plant taken from another aquarium. (possibly Wisteria (Hygrophila difformis)) [added 1/22/12]
Anubias (possibly Anubias Barteri var. Congensis) [added 2/4/12]
Bleheri (Echonodorus paniculatus) [added 2/4/12]
Microsword (Lilaeopsis brasiliensis) [added 1/21/12] 

*Number 5*:

lead weighted cutting (possibly Hygrophila difformis emersed) [Petco miscellaneous plants] [added 1/22/12]
Green Cryptocoryne (Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Green') [added 1/21/12]
Microsword (Lilaeopsis brasiliensis) [added 1/21/12]


*Fish population*

*Number 1*:

2 x Panda Cory [added 1/22/12]
2 x Fancy Guppy (male) [added 1/22/12] [moved to Number 2 1/29/12]
1 x Betta [added 1/26/12]

*Number 2*:

5 x Glowlight Tetra [added 1/22/12]
2 x Fancy Guppy (male) [added 1/22/12] [moved from Number 1 1/29/12] 

*Number 3*:

2 x Glass Cats [added 1/22/12] (-1 on 2/2/12)
13 x Mosquito Rasbora [added 1/30/12] (-3 by 2/1/12)

*Number 4*:

1 x Betta [added Spring 2011]
2 x Black Phantom Tetra [added 2/1/12]

*Number 5*:

1 x Betta [added Spring 2011]
5 x Ember Tetra [added 1/27/12] (-1 on 2/2/12)
5 x Ember Tetra [added 2/3/12]


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Hm... interesting. Tannins is definitely known for lowering pH. Seems to be doing the opposite for you ?!?! I am confused haha.

You should stick all that juicy info in the original post (first post) by "editing" it. That way it won't be buried here when your journla gets longer!

Hm... tank 5 might be overstocked a ton if you have 10 tetras and one betta. Have you tested nitrates in that tank recently?


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> Hm... interesting. Tannins is definitely known for lowering pH. Seems to be doing the opposite for you ?!?! I am confused haha.
> 
> You should stick all that juicy info in the original post (first post) by "editing" it. That way it won't be buried here when your journla gets longer!
> 
> Hm... tank 5 might be overstocked a ton if you have 10 tetras and one betta. Have you tested nitrates in that tank recently?


Maybe I will get a nitrate test kit. Other than that, I'll frequently do partial water changes.


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## D-Mac (Oct 7, 2011)

A bit of frogbit in each would look quite snazzy, I think. Would also help suck up some of those nitrates. 

Very nice btw


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

D-Mac said:


> A bit of frogbit in each would look quite snazzy, I think. Would also help suck up some of those nitrates.
> 
> Very nice btw


I will look for frogbit next time I stop in at the local fish store.

In the meantime, I've added well-cooked driftwood to tank 1. I doubt that piece of wood will give up much more color.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> Hm... interesting. Tannins is definitely known for lowering pH. Seems to be doing the opposite for you ?!?! I am confused haha.
> 
> You should stick all that juicy info in the original post (first post) by "editing" it. That way it won't be buried here when your journla gets longer!


I think I know why tank 3 has the lowest PH, but can't explain why the others are so high. Tank 3 has had the most water changes, trying to keep the green water algae down. Since the RO water tests at 6.4, the tank water at 6.6 is just a bit higher. I think tank 2 has had the least water changes. The PH there is coming down (from 7.6+ to 7.2 when last checked).

Post #1 is updated with the current list of flora and fauna as well as a current full-size picture. I'll update the list and the picture occasionally.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

scottwww said:


> Post #1 is updated with the current list of flora and fauna as well as a current full-size picture. I'll update the list and the picture occasionally.


That's the way to do it!

You know.. if you add more substrate into tank 4, then tanks 3 and 4 will look like they are one continuous scape with the driftwood angled like that !


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## atom (Sep 28, 2011)

How are your bettas getting along with their tank mates? Thinking of getting some cories for my betta in my 3 gallon.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

atom said:


> How are your bettas getting along with their tank mates? Thinking of getting some cories for my betta in my 3 gallon.


There is no problem with the Panda Corys and the Betta. The guppies tails have been shredded by the betta and they are moved to tank 2 to try to grow their tails back and keep them alive.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

Is the snail in this tank eating the surface of the Bleheri leaves?


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## Robotponys (Sep 7, 2011)

LOVE THIS! It sounds overstocked, but it doesn't look like it is. I am going to try this one day with just 1 vase.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

scottwww said:


> Is the snail in this tank eating the surface of the Bleheri leaves?


Snails generally won't eat healthy plant matter. So if it is eating it then the plant must be dying by itself?


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> Snails generally won't eat healthy plant matter. So if it is eating it then the plant must be dying by itself?


They were not pock-marked like you see here when first planted in this tank. I've done some searching to see if snails like to eat this plant, but haven't found anything that says so. If not the snail, what else would cause this so quickly?


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Those areas could just be dying off due to change in water parameters or a variety of other regions. The snail is only eating the dead parts. Unless it starts eating the entire plant, it should recover.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

Robotponys said:


> LOVE THIS! It sounds overstocked, but it doesn't look like it is. I am going to try this one day with just 1 vase.


None of them look overstocked, except maybe tank 5. But even with 9 of these Ember Tetras and a Betta, it looks really good. I don't want fewer than 9 Ember Tetras in here. They are pretty small.


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## Robotponys (Sep 7, 2011)

scottwww said:


> None of them look overstocked, except maybe tank 5. But even with 9 of these Ember Tetras and a Betta, it looks really good. I don't want fewer than 9 Ember Tetras in here. They are pretty small.


Yup, that's what I meant.  I'm not the best at writing creatively lol.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

*Water quality testing*

To monitor water quality in these tanks, I just picked up an API Freshwater Master Test Kit. This should be more useful than the PH test alone. Probably will want to get a water hardness test kit as well.

PH has dropped in tanks 1 and 3 as well as the 20 gallon tall tank. At this point, it is difficult to tell what the PH has done in tanks 2, 4, and 5 as this is the first time I had a test kit to measure high PH.










I'll probably test Nitrate weekly until I get a feel for how long these tanks should go between water changes. I know that the 20 gallon tank doesn't get water changes frequently enough. Water drained and Water added as shown here is measured in inches. Added water is greater than drained water as this accounts for evaporation.










Water in all tanks is cleared up, except tank 5 is brown from the wood that was added to it. Light cycle has been about 6-1/2 hours a day for the last week. It's nice to not have green water. I'll probably add an updated picture tomorrow with it looking good.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

Other changes..

The male Guppy that was moved to tank 2 after his tail was shredded by the Betta in tank 1 died today. It hadn't looked good for him since the shredding. He had a hard time swimming strong enough to keep himself afloat. He would often lounge on top of the wood in tank 2 because he just didn't have enough energy to wiggle his way around the tank.

Two more little Panda Corys were added to tank 1.

The snail from tank 4 was moved to tank 5 as he seemed to like eating Bleheri (Amazon Sword).

I plan to replace the Wisteria in tank 5 with something else as the emerged form just isn't looking so good underwater any longer.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Very nice excel spreadsheet images. I keep that myself with the API test kit results. A faster way to test for nitrates is if you buy a TDS meter (~$30). You measure the TDS out of your tap for ~10 days, that should remain constant. Then you measure the TDS in your tanks before and after a water change. You'll notice the TDS will be considerably higher, this is from all the nitrates and nitrite build up. Measuring the TDS takes ~10seconds, works like a thermometer. Just some food for thought, not required or anything but will make your life easier instead of doing the test tube test for all 5 tanks.

Interested in why your pH keeps fluctuating like that. Your water might have no kH at all...


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> Very nice excel spreadsheet images. I keep that myself with the API test kit results. A faster way to test for nitrates is if you buy a TDS meter (~$30). You measure the TDS out of your tap for ~10 days, that should remain constant. Then you measure the TDS in your tanks before and after a water change. You'll notice the TDS will be considerably higher, this is from all the nitrates and nitrite build up. Measuring the TDS takes ~10seconds, works like a thermometer. Just some food for thought, not required or anything but will make your life easier instead of doing the test tube test for all 5 tanks.
> 
> Interested in why your pH keeps fluctuating like that. Your water might have no kH at all...


I use LibreOffice Calc on OpenSUSE Linux. I have no Windows on my primary computer.

Thanks for the tip on the TDS meter. I'll have to get one.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is no kH, if reverse osmosis water has none. All the water added to these tanks is RO water.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Ah. I'm so used to windows. I use Linux during programming for research but I can't get used to it haha. Instead of navigating through terminals I open up the folder graphic display :\.

This is a great TDS meter and has build in automatic temperature control (ATC) as the ions will have different conductance at different temperatures. This is the one I use and has been working well for 2+ months. I believe after about a year you should re-calibrate it.

Yea, if you're using RO/DI water without remineralizing it you'll have zero kH. So that's why your pH swings are huge. You might want to consider remineralizng the water with something like "Kent RO Right" or your fish might not get enough nutrients from the water. I know for inverts it's a problem as they need the gH in the water to build healthy exoskeletons, but I'm not too sure how it effects fish.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

I'll have to get the TDS meter from an online store as neither Lowe's nor Home Depot had anything.

I was surprised that Petco and PetSmart didn't have any kH or GH test kit, or they were simply sold out. Nobody had any re-mineralizing stuff in stock. A local fish store had an API KH (Carbonate Hardness) test kit, but was sold out of RO Right.

Testing each tank showed that my RO water had zero (or near zero) Carbonate Hardness. Once I get the RO Right, I guess I will determine how much to add when doing water changes. I'll want to study up to find out how much kH and GH is desirable with the plants and fish I am keeping.










From what diwu13 said about invertebrates, adjustments will need to be made, especially as the intent is to get two or three Crystal Red Shrimp for tank 3.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

I would generally order those kinda things online. You can try http://www.kensfish.com/ , that will have a lot of what you need. As will amazon.com.

For inverts, having a kH near zero is fine. What is more important is having enough gH in the water for them to have healthy exoskeletons. Not sure about fish and if they need kH or anything.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

The green water has cleared from all five tanks. Scrubbing the algae from the glass with a paper towel worked better than what the snails have been able to achieve.

Next will be to decide whether to pressure cook the wood in tank 5 that continues to color the water brown, or to just deal with it in water changes, eventually leading to clear water. I lean toward cooking again as that worked very well with the wood in tanks 1 and 3.










Black Phantom Tetra in tank 4









Glowlight Tetras in tank 2


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Haha wow, tea colored tank 5. Tanks 1-4 almost looks like a continuous scape!


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

+1 to continuous scape,


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

chumblaka said:


> What a neat set up, you should add some shrimp to the tanks!


Three Crystal Red Shrimp were just added to tank 3. I don't think the Mosquito Rasbora or the Glass Cat will cause the CRS any trouble (?). The Rasbora are quite a lot smaller than the CRS. And the Glass Cat only rarely comes out of hiding from the shade under the driftwood.

Also, for tank 3, I added a couple small Java Fern taken from my daughter's 20 gallon tank. These are planted on the driftwood.

I removed the Wisteria from tank 5 and added a new plant (it looked like some kind of Cryptocoryne to me).

Also, for tank 1, I added a colorful stem plant . The shopkeeper at the local fish store didn't know what it was. He said something like it may be a kind of Rotala.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

The plant with orange leaves was added to tank 1 yesterday. The local fish store didn't seem to know for sure what it was. Any idea?










These are two of the Crystal Red Shrimp added to tank 3 yesterday.










A pair of Long-finned Serpae Tetra were added to tank 2 today.










The 2nd guppy in tank 2 doesn't look very good. I don't think it will survive. The best idea I have of what may be happening to this guppy is that the PH is low and hardness is low. What I read is that guppies like a higher PH and harder water.

I picked up an API General Hardness test kit. The GH in all tanks is low, right along with how low kH measured. Now I am considering what, if anything, to do to adjust the hardness. Kent RO Right was suggested. There isn't any in stock at any of the stores I have checked. I could buy it online, but I need a plan for what to do with it once I get it. I'm guessing that all of these tanks could use at least some hardness added to the water, but I don't know to what level this should be adjusted. With these tanks, small as they are, cost for the stuff shouldn't be a real consideration. Maybe the time involved in monitoring and adjusting levels would be too much hastle. Or maybe making adjustments would actually lead to greater fluctuationc causing more stress on the fish and plants than just having low levels. (?)


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

scottwww said:


> The plant with orange leaves was added to tank 1 yesterday. The local fish store didn't seem to know for sure what it was. Any idea?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The orange leafed plant looks like Alternanthera reineckii to me


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

Chlorophile said:


> The orange leafed plant looks like Alternanthera reineckii to me


Thanks for the tip! That might be it. Here are a couple other views if that helps in confirming the identification.

A view from above:









A closer side view:


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## inka4041 (Jul 27, 2008)

Looks like ludwigia repens to me. +2 on the continuous scape. The transition between 3 and 4 is especially nice.


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## Durgidog (Jan 16, 2012)

This setup is beautiful. What about adding some crushed coral to the substrate of the cylinders with low ph?


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

inka4041 said:


> Looks like ludwigia repens to me. +2 on the continuous scape. The transition between 3 and 4 is especially nice.


Aha! It does look like Ludwigia repens in some of the pictures I found with Google images. Others look maybe not so much like it. A lot of the photos have the stems in red and the veins on the leaves in green. So I am not certain from what I see. I guess there is a lot of variation in this species of plant where the one I have would simply be one of the many? I would rather it be Ludwigia as the descriptions show it to be easy to keep alive.



Durgidog said:


> This setup is beautiful. What about adding some crushed coral to the substrate of the cylinders with low ph?


I will definitely consider crushed coral. I just don't want to make any changes to the water chemistry without first knowing exactly why I am doing it, and what it will take to get the desired result. I guess that some of these fish and plants prefer low PH and soft water, whcih seems to be what I have. Ultimately, I would probably want to get the tanks to be as stable as possible with low maintenance as I can make them. Then just plant and populate with what does well in those conditions.

I'll probably have to give it time for things to settle into their natural order. If they all tend to get to the same water quality, etc., then adding some crushed coral or other modifications to tweak an environment for dfifferent occupants might be where I want to go with this.

On the other hand, I may want to make each one just a variation on a theme, like the Amazon River. I don't know. I'll see where it goes.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

I think I have some Ember Tetra eggs in tank five. At least that what it looks like to me. They are on one of the leaves of a Cryptocoryne. I counted 35 "eggs" in an area of about one square centimeter. The "eggs" were not there last night.

Once they hatch, I won't expect them to live. I'm not prepared to take care of them.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Hm... that's pretty interesting you can see the eggs. Are you sure they aren't snail eggs ?


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> Hm... that's pretty interesting you can see the eggs. Are you sure they aren't snail eggs ?


I thought that snails laid their eggs above water. I haven't seen anything that met the description of snail eggs, that I have read. I don't have a snail in this tank (not for the last week, or so.

Here's a picture of the "Ember Tetra eggs". I assume that is what this is.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Hm.. looks a bit like snail eggs to me @[email protected]


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> Hm.. looks a bit like snail eggs to me @[email protected]


Dang it! I don't want lots of snails. Don't they lay their eggs above water rather than near the bottom of the tank? I guess they could have been there before I moved this crypt to the front of the tank a couple days ago, and I just didn't notice. But I thought I would have noticed it.

Snails? If it were fish eggs, I don't have what it takes to raise them right now.

I went looking for info on what Ember Tetra eggs look like, and thought this met the description, though I didn't find any pictures. The snail that was in this tank was a generic snail, probably what they call a mystery snail. Is that a specific type of snail? Or just a generic term? Snail eggs? I'll have to eradicate those.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

Updated picture as of 2/23/12. Added some plants this week.


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## calebkraft (Jan 3, 2012)

looks like pond snail eggs. Extremely common. While it might make sense to call them mystery snails, that's not what they are. Mystery snails are a specific kind that are actually pretty neat and quite large compared to pond snails. 

Pond snails will reproduce like crazy. You scrape them out, which is a pain. Smash them with your finger, which is a pain. or get something to eat them. For your small setup, your options are limited, but an assassin snail might do the trick.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

scottwww said:


> Dang it! I don't want lots of snails. Don't they lay their eggs above water rather than near the bottom of the tank? I guess they could have been there before I moved this crypt to the front of the tank a couple days ago, and I just didn't notice. But I thought I would have noticed it.
> 
> Snails? If it were fish eggs, I don't have what it takes to raise them right now.
> 
> I went looking for info on what Ember Tetra eggs look like, and thought this met the description, though I didn't find any pictures. The snail that was in this tank was a generic snail, probably what they call a mystery snail. Is that a specific type of snail? Or just a generic term? Snail eggs? I'll have to eradicate those.


Yea so apple snails will lay their eggs out of the water. But most other snails (the common ones like MTS, ramshorns, pond snails) lay their eggs in the water on anything really. Their eggs can look like:








and I've seen them lay eggs even on other snails !

As the previous user stated, since this is the first time you've seen them if you scrape it out now you could potentially nip the problem before it gets more serious.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

calebkraft said:


> looks like pond snail eggs. Extremely common. While it might make sense to call them mystery snails, that's not what they are. Mystery snails are a specific kind that are actually pretty neat and quite large compared to pond snails.
> 
> Pond snails will reproduce like crazy. You scrape them out, which is a pain. Smash them with your finger, which is a pain. or get something to eat them. For your small setup, your options are limited, but an assassin snail might do the trick.


Alright. It looks like it is pond snail eggs. I also noticed in tank 3 a couple small snails (maybe 1/8" size). They were probably hitchhikers on the Cabomba. The Cabomba came from the same tank at the LFS as the cryptocoryne where these snail eggs are found. [edit: Maybe not from the Cabomba as I watched the guy at the LFS remove the fresh shipment of Cabomba from the plastic bag it came in. He did put them in the tank just before picking mine out... Maybe that was in there just long enough for a couple of these pest to hitch a ride.]

There is more than one blob of eggs on this cryptocoryne as I examine it closer. The snails I bought are much bigger (at least 1 inch) than what the pond snail description specifies (up to 1/4").

I'm going to yank that cryptocoryne out the the tank right now, and after work, examine the tank more closely to see if there are any other egg blobs. Hopefully they just hitched a ride on the crypt.

Damned snails!


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

scottwww said:


> Damned snails!


I feel your pain


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## inka4041 (Jul 27, 2008)

Wow, man. These things continue to look more and more like 1 unbroken scape. I love your magnifying glass stand as well!


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> I feel your pain


Thanks for the help. I'm glad you identified these eggs for me. I probably would have blindly let them hatch into a snail infestation thinking they were going to be Ember Tetras.

That was a close call.

I went back and checked my notes on this Cryptocoryne plant. It has been in the tank since 2/14. So maybe there is at least one adult pond snail in the tank that laid the eggs, as the eggs develop within just a few days... is that right? At least I haven't seen any eggs anywhere except this one plant. I also inspected the Ludwigia repens in tank 1 as it was bought from the same aquarium as the Cryptocoryne, and transported in the same bag. This wasn't purchased at the same place as the Cabomba.

The two tiny snails in tank 3 were definitely pond snails. I removed them from the tank. I'll have to keep a close eye on that to make sure I got them all. I just don't want any of these pests. Just wondering where these came from if not the same place as the pond snail eggs.

I am pretty certain that the snails I bought from the local fish store were Pomacea diffusa. That is referred to as Apple Snail or Mystery Snail. It should be easy to find and remove any eggs they may deposit as they go above the waterline.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

inka4041 said:


> Wow, man. These things continue to look more and more like 1 unbroken scape. I love your magnifying glass stand as well!


Thanks! I am really enjoying these five tanks. They have turned out better than I expected. Hopefully they will thrive. 

However, it is disappointing that the apple snails in tanks 2 and 3 don't do a very good job of cleaning algae from the glass. I almost jettisoned the snails entirely when the one that was in tank 4 munched on the Amazon sword "bleheri". Since then, new leaves on the bleheri look great - at least as well as when I first got it.


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## inka4041 (Jul 27, 2008)

Nerites are probably a better choice.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

inka4041 said:


> Nerites are probably a better choice.


Do you keep Nerites? I was looking for those locally, but couldn't find any. I had read that they reproduce only in brackish water. Are they also less likely to eat plants? And do they do a good job keeping the glass clean?

Also, I was considering whether shrimp added to each tank would work. I would choose different species for each tank. I hope they would help keep the tanks clean. But I don't know enough about shrimp yet.


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## ZLogic (Aug 7, 2011)

diwu13 said:


> Yea so apple snails will lay their eggs out of the water. But most other snails (the common ones like MTS, ramshorns, pond snails) lay their eggs in the water on anything really. /
> 
> 
> > MTS don't lay eggs, they are aesexual livebearers.


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## inka4041 (Jul 27, 2008)

As far as I can tell, they leave plants entirely alone. They like the meatier algaes, diatoms, green dust, stuff like that. If that's generally what you have, then absolutely, they'll clean the glass spotless. GSA is a bit more likely to stand up to their scraping. I have a bunch that I move from tank to tank, because you also have to worry about them starving when they run out of food. I'd go with the smaller varieties like the clithon species, or batik nerites. Maybe get a couple, and switch them out between your vases, so they always have fresh stuff to eat.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

inka4041 said:


> As far as I can tell, they leave plants entirely alone. They like the meatier algaes, diatoms, green dust, stuff like that. If that's generally what you have, then absolutely, they'll clean the glass spotless. GSA is a bit more likely to stand up to their scraping. I have a bunch that I move from tank to tank, because you also have to worry about them starving when they run out of food. I'd go with the smaller varieties like the clithon species, or batik nerites. Maybe get a couple, and switch them out between your vases, so they always have fresh stuff to eat.


I called the local fish store and they have Red Onion, Striped, and Horned Nerites.


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## inka4041 (Jul 27, 2008)

Willing to bet those horned nerites at least are clithon. Striped could be as well, or they could be the regular zebras. Check it out!


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

inka4041 said:


> Willing to bet those horned nerites at least are clithon. Striped could be as well, or they could be the regular zebras. Check it out!


I just picked up some snails at the local fish store.

They described these as Horned Nerite, Red Onion Nerite, and Striped Nerite. The guy that took them out of the tanks for me seemed confused about whether the striped one was a Nerite or not. He called it an Assassin Snail. He also seemed confused about whether these three types of snail could breed in fresh water, or whether they required brackish water. His own tank has the striped one, and now it has many of them "because he added bogwood". It sounded like he didn't know what he was talking about.

I don't want snail babies. I just want good snails to clean the algae from the glass and plants, without eating the plants, and without multiplying in number.

As I read a little about Assassin Snail, I see that this one that I bought is Clea helena. This is not a Nerite snail. The Zebra Nerite is the one I wanted. I did see some empty Zebra shells in the tank with the Assassins.

Apparently these Assassin Snails don't do well with eating algae. I guess I will put it in tank 5. If I find out this thing is likely to reproduce by itself, then I'll have to take it out. I just don't want an infestation. But I would like to keep it around in case it's needed to hunt down pond snails or MTS.


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## inka4041 (Jul 27, 2008)

Assassins don't infest. They do lay eggs, but at a much slower rate, and their rate of breeding is very much tied to the amount of live food (snails) you have lying around. Beyond that, they hold their price somewhat, so if you ever do find yourself with too many, you can usually sell the excess very easily.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

Here's a picture of the new Red Onion Snail [aka: Orange Track Snail or Polka Dot Snail] This is a Vittina Semiconica Nerite Snail.









And here is a picture of one of two Horned Nerite Snails This is Clithon corona Nerite Snail.









No picture of the new Assassin Snail, yet. It got away and is hiding out somewhere.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Assassin snails wont' eat algae and some are known to attack and eat nerites/shrimp as well.

*edit* those are some really nice looking nerites!


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## doncityz (May 17, 2011)

Dang!! Looks pretty bada$$!!! Very coolllll


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## Greedy (May 26, 2010)

VERY nice work of art.


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## alfalfa (Jan 19, 2012)

That onion nerite is cool!


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

I didn't think these tanks were all that different from one another in what has gone into them that would affect parameters like hardness and PH to this extent. But these are the current API test kit results:










In the GH/KH tests, each drop equals 17.9 ppm or 1 degree dKH.


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## Robotponys (Sep 7, 2011)

Assassin snails eat other snails. Solution for your pond snails! But they do reproduce fast.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

Is this what "pearling" looks like? What little I have seen here about pearling is that this occurs if the plant is doing well in its environment

I've been concerned about the Cabomba furcata in tank 3, as the spec sheet that I read indicated it to be hard to keep. If it is pearling, is this a good sign that it isn't likely to just turn to mush?










Just a couple hours prior to this, was a 30% water change (refreshed with reverse osmosis water) and the addition of 1 ml / gallon of Aqueon Plant Food.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Yup that's pearling!

I don't know if it means it will survive though. Just that it is getting the nutrients and light it needs currently.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

I like this picture of the Apple Snail in tank one.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Wow, normally apple snails are too heavy to cruise over plants like that!


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

A couple days ago I bought some more snails from the local fish store. I picked up another two Horned Nerite Snails. The shopkeeper referred to them as "bunny ear snails". Also, I picked up a Zebra Snail, Red Onion Snail, and two more Assassin Snails.

Zebra Nerite Snail









Since the Assassin Snails would kill any other small snails, I removed the Horned Nerites from tank 3 so the Assassins could replace them for a time. I want the Assassins to kill any Pond Snails that are still in there.

I had read somewhere that Assassin Snails might kill shrimp as they do other snails. But I figured that concern was probably not a real threat as shrimp can just run away. And then I read that Assasins bury themselves in the substrate to lay in wait for prey. The Ecco Complete substrate I have would seem to keep these snails from burying themselves this way.

Well, today I saw something in the bottom of the tank and could only find one of my three Crystal Red Shrimp alive! It looked like the carcass remains of one of my shrimp. 

I couldn't be sure it was the waste of a good shrimp, so I turned the tank around, and turned it around further, then back the other way. Just two shrimp!

Assassin Snail









Then finally I found the third one. No dead shrimp. I hadn't thought of the shrimp moulting. I haven't had these very long and haven't noticed talk of it much in the information I have read. That was a relief to decide it was just a discarded shell. I didn't want to have to move the remaining live shrimp just so the Assassins could finish their task.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Sometimes if the assassin snail doesn't find enough food in your tank it might just decide to "tag" a shrimp with it's snout-tube thing. That secretes some type of paralyzing toxin that allows the assassin to "drink" from it's victim. In the case of shrimp, they're only at danger right after they molt when their exoskeleton is soft. But if the assassin has pond snails to eat it should leave your shrimp alone.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> Sometimes if the assassin snail doesn't find enough food in your tank it might just decide to "tag" a shrimp with it's snout-tube thing. That secretes some type of paralyzing toxin that allows the assassin to "drink" from it's victim. In the case of shrimp, they're only at danger right after they molt when their exoskeleton is soft. But if the assassin has pond snails to eat it should leave your shrimp alone.


Maybe I should be concerned. I haven't seen any more pond snails since shortly before introducing these two Assassins. I just figured that if there were about ten I had taken out of there, then there must be more still. Other than live food, what do Assassins eat?


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

They'll eat anything from algae wafers to fish flake food. They aren't really picky, which is why they sometimes go after shrimp :X


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## GMYukonon24s (May 3, 2009)

I agree with diwu13 they eat algae wafers and flakes.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

I just added a couple Bee Shrimp to tank 3. I figured they would look good together with the three Crystal Red Shrimp.

But, I have four Crystal Red Shrimp now. There is a tiny baby. It is really tiny. Since there is this one, is there likely more?

Correction: There are two babies. One is about twice the size of the other. They are both very small.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

Here are the two babies, a parent, and one of the new Bee Shrimp.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

The bees will breed with the CRS just to let you know. But they look adorable


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> The bees will breed with the CRS just to let you know. But they look adorable


If they breed together that's fine with me. I assume that they always will produce either black or red stripes, and typically with about the same grade on their markings. I did a small amount of reading that suggested you can improve their hardiness by crossing Bees with CRS.

Will Mosquito Rasbora (Chili Rasbora) eat shrimplets? Even these two little survivors might just disappear, if they haven't already.

Is it generally so, that if CRS produce offspring that they will continue to do so monthly if the environment remains stable?


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

You can also end up with brown as a color as well.

And mosquito rasboras might eat shrimplets. I have 6x in each of my shrimp tanks to eat nemotodes and have not seen myself if they've eaten any. But I do see a lot still alive. However, others have said they will eat shrimplets. I think if one swims in front of them, it's dead. But usually shrimplets will hide so you shouldn't have had a problem. But the shrimplets need to be TINY, like... just born, for them to be considered a meal. As soon as they grow past like o- that size, they will no longer fit in their mouths.

And yes, shrimp in general will continue breeding if they like where they are. Until they grow too old to do so.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

One think I see in tank 3 are a few white balls scattered over a small area on the driftwood. I suspect these may be eggs from the Black Phantom Tetra. I can't think of what else would have laid eggs that size. Through the curved glass, they look like maybe the size of those little round candy sprinkles you might put on a cupcake. Perhaps 1.5 mm diameter. What little I have read about these tetra eggs is that they are white if they are not fertilized.

Will a tetra lay eggs only in an environment that is suitable for them? Or do they just pop them out when they get full of eggs? If it takes them being satisfied with their environment, then I guess the male may not be as satisfied as the eggs were not fertilized?


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## Al Slick (Jan 22, 2012)

Are you plants still pearling? I'm certain that those bubbles were just outgassing from your water change. If it's not pearling thaan thats's not a bad thing at all!

I really feel like your tanks are WAY too small for your fish. I would never put fish in such a small area of water. I can't believe nobody has chimed in and mentioned this already. 

It's a cool idea and your tanks are beautiful but they are clearly overstocked and your fish will never display natural behaviors or be comfortable.

Just my opinion.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

Al Slick said:


> Are you plants still pearling? I'm certain that those bubbles were just outgassing from your water change. If it's not pearling thaan thats's not a bad thing at all!


They haven't been pearling since then. But they are growing fast. I've thinned out the Cabomba by moving about half of it to a 20 gallon tank, and it keeps growing and filling in the space. Once I have my next tank setup, I may move some of to the new one.

Gas from the water change had nothing to do with it. I have made many water changes and never saw that effect before or since.


Al Slick said:


> I really feel like your tanks are WAY too small for your fish. I would never put fish in such a small area of water. I can't believe nobody has chimed in and mentioned this already.


Well, certainly they are too small. Anything is too small compared to their natural habitat. That doesn't stop any of you from adding fish to your aquariums. It doesn't stop us from having animals in cages at the zoo. Given unlimited money and space, I might have multiple larger tanks. But I wanted to use this space for something different. I like the way it is going. It's possible that once I have my larger tank setup, that I would move some of these fish to it, but I'll probably treat it separately. I'm thinking to make it a comfortable environment for German Blue Rams or something. I'm in no hurry with that project, and moving slowly to plan it at each step, as well as this noob can do.



Al Slick said:


> It's a cool idea and your tanks are beautiful but they are clearly overstocked and your fish will never display natural behaviors or be comfortable.
> 
> Just my opinion.


I've wondered why there hasn't been that kind of commentary. I know they are overstocked, but they seem healthy so far. This is a work in progress and will continue to develop in directions that I have not planned.

I like the plants, but I don't see plants alone holding my interest enough to maintain any tank. With these little tanks, I am developing an interest in the hobby, and perhaps giving these more attention than many casual keepers of fish do.

I guess my tone in this reply is defensive. Basically, it is what it is. I didn't have space or knowledge enough to make biotopes.


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## Al Slick (Jan 22, 2012)

It's fine, you don't sound defensive to me. I understand your points and I feel that they are logical. Your water has cleared up and your plants look beautiful so obviously any water quality problems have subsided and everything looks very healthy. 

I didn't mean to sound rude or judgmental but I just felt that I should bring up the question since nobody had already. I agree with your point that none of us replicate our fishes' natural habitats and this truth is something that I regret often! I do feel badly for all our fish but I suppose you're right. People are going to do what they do and we can't change that.

I am not trying to beat you up about it and I'm glad to see somebody who's interested and is making a wonderful start at fish keeping.

I wish you the best of luck with your tanks!


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## Al Slick (Jan 22, 2012)

Oh btw congrats on your tetra eggs! I think that tetras are egg scatterers so those are likely from your fish! I think that it's likely that they are unfertilized as well, but that doesn't mean your males are unsatisfied. It could be that you have no males or that they simply aren't ready to breed quite yet.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

Here's the latest picture of these five tanks.










They are looking good. The Nerite snails in tank 4 are doing a great job cleaning up. The plants (except the Wisteria) are all cleaned up now, and the glass is looking better than ever since algae came into these tanks.

Unfortunately the Assassin Snails in tank 3 aren't doing anything that I can see for the glass. And I still keep finding living pond snails, maybe one or two a day. Usually they are situated where I can't reach them with my tongs, so I have to leave them alone.

The single Zebra Nerite in tank 2 with the Apple Snail just don't do enough for the glass. The rest of the tank looks clean. Even tank 5 is getting some algae on surfaces because the only snail in there is one Assassin.

I did a water change on the tanks today, followed by Flourish Excel, Aqueon plant fertilizer, and the first application of RO right (supposed to be enough to turn RO water into very soft water (Discus friendly). I don't want to go further than that with the hardness until I know what I really want to get from it.

This resulted in the Cabomba Furcata in tank 3 (and the Java Ferns to a lesser degree) to pearl like crazy.










Well, maybe not like crazy. There aren't columns of rising bubbles (though I do remember seeing the rising bubble column last weekend for a few hours from just one part of the Cabomba). 

The Cabomba is still growing fast. I have removed half of it and moved it to the 20 gallon tank where it doesn't get nearly as much light.

Where I am disappointed is in the Baby Tears in tank 5. It just has not done well. Maybe it needed more light. Maybe the water is too low pH. I don't know.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Dang that is a ton of pearling! Looks like you're doing right!

And assassins won't eat any algae pretty much. Algae wafers, but not actually algae. They also sometimes won't eat snails either lol. But they generally leave baby snails alone until they get large enough for a good meal.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

Are newly hatched Crystal Red Shrimplets as small as seamonkeys?

There are dozens of these little white/clear things on and above the substrate, darting around in a small area at the front of tank 3. They are small enough that if they weren't moving as they are, without a magnifying glass, I would think them to be dust.

Just bugs? Or shrimp?


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## inka4041 (Jul 27, 2008)

My bet is ostracods. Baby shrimp are crazy small, but are identifiably shrimp shaped, and a good deal bigger than dust particles.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Baby shrimp are about "o-" when they are newly hatched. You should easily be able to tell that they are shrimp and not something else. You don't need a magnifying glass either.

Probably copepods.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

Ostracods or Copepods, whatever they are, I am guessing they are not something to be concerned about? I did a small amount of reading and what was reported was that Copepods may make up the largest amount of biomass on earth! Maybe the Mosquito Rasbora will eat them. That would be good for them to have live food. I was thinking of buying frozen brine shirmp to supplement the diet (or provide a snack) for all the fish in these tanks.

Looking at these things in the magnifying glass, they're very small. About the most I can see is they are longer than they are wide, white in color, and the back end of them has two smaller spots that resemble Mickey Mouse ears. It could be that is what this thing looks like without a microscope:










They don't all look the same, so it seems there is a variety of bugs in this tank.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Nope they are completely harmless and generally mean your tank is well established! The mosquito rasboras will eat them, so you should be fine! I just got some of those to control my nemotode population as well . They are such cool looking, cute fish !

The "Mickey mouse ears" are the egg sacs of the female copepods.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> I just got some of those to control my nemotode population as well . They are such cool looking, cute fish !


I just read a wiki on Nematodes. They are everywhere!


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Yeah, some types of nemotodes are bad news -> horsehair worms. If you got those... ugh. But most of the ones you see, the wigglers, are fine. I actually just saw one of my mosquito rasboras eat one haha.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Oh so I noticed you have 13 mosquito rasboras in tank 3. How come none of them show up in the pictures ? They are peaceful with your shrimp right? I'm considering getting a few more, I have 6 in each 10g tank.

And I was wondering.. if you ever go on vacation how will you feed all those tanks?


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> Oh so I noticed you have 13 mosquito rasboras in tank 3. How come none of them show up in the pictures ? They are peaceful with your shrimp right? I'm considering getting a few more, I have 6 in each 10g tank.
> 
> And I was wondering.. if you ever go on vacation how will you feed all those tanks?


I think it is down to 9 of these Mosquito Rasbora. Some died within a few days of intrduction to this tank. They hide out mostly on the back side of the tank. I wonder why they like that space. Maybe it is because the light is so bright, that they stay under cover when it's on. They do come out a little at times, just not that active. I've never seen them bother the shrimp at all.

The shrimp are doing really well. With five adults and ten young that I have found, I'll have to be moving some to other quarters soon.

I haven't worked out how to feed these during vacationsl. Last summer when I had a bunch of bettas, I had an automatic betta feeder on each bowl. But those feeders will not do for these tanks. I'll probably get an Eheim auto feeder for the 37 gallon column I'm putting together. I put one of those feeders on my daughter's 20 gallon tank last year. It has done a pretty good job feeding the fish ever since. The Eheim is too large for these little vases, so I don't know yet what I will do when we go on vacation. Maybe a friend would be willing to drop in a couple times during the week.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Aw, sorry to hear about the fish deaths. Are they active when you feed them at least? If not.. there might be something wrong with your water parameters.

Hm... let me know if you ever figure out a way to feed them without having your friend over. I'm thinking of something as well when I set up more tanks. It's hard to set up feeders for like 5x tanks, it will sure cost a lot of money getting a ton of auto feeders.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> Aw, sorry to hear about the fish deaths. Are they active when you feed them at least? If not.. there might be something wrong with your water parameters.
> 
> Hm... let me know if you ever figure out a way to feed them without having your friend over. I'm thinking of something as well when I set up more tanks. It's hard to set up feeders for like 5x tanks, it will sure cost a lot of money getting a ton of auto feeders.


One advantage to these cylinders is it's easy to turn it to face another direction to give a different view. I turned tank three about 180 degrees to see the backside. Under the driftwood, it is all shade. This is where all the Mosquito Rasbora hang out together when the tank is turned the other way. But they have moved to the other side now that I want to see them.










Before they moved away, I counted seven of them. There may still be nine with just two out of sight when I counted.

This one here seems to like to hang out in this one visible spot.










About water parameters... I don't remember if they started hiding just recently, or always have. There is one problem with the water I have been dealing with. Just prior to receiving my TDS meter, I added RO right to all five tanks according to the label on the container. This should have made for very soft water even good for discus. However, once I received the TDS meter, I discovered that the RO Right actually brought TDS up to 197 ppm in this tank and even 268 to 328 in the others. I purposely added less to tank 3 because there are shrimp that I understand prefer soft water.

Since then, I have been using just the RO water in water changes. Tank 3 came down to 85 TDS, so on the last water change, I added RO water adjusted to TDS of 100 ppm. I am shooting for maintaining about 100 TDS in all five tanks now. Of course, that target could be adjusted as I learn more what to do. I guess it was just not quite right to keep it at 9 ppm as the RO water comes out of the tap. Maybe the TDS changes have been stressful on these little fish. I rarely see them eat.

The best eaters are in tanks 1, 4, and 5. They all do well. In tank 2, I rarely see one of the Serpae Tetras. The smaller one always hides under the driftwood, sometimes to come out and eat.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

I think the large addition of RO water might have caused some stress. But then again you said this was a while back?

I guess as long as you maintain the 100TDS everything should be fine. I'm not sure if fish need more gH in the water than shrimp though.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

Al Slick said:


> Oh btw congrats on your tetra eggs! I think that tetras are egg scatterers so those are likely from your fish! I think that it's likely that they are unfertilized as well, but that doesn't mean your males are unsatisfied. It could be that you have no males or that they simply aren't ready to breed quite yet.


I noticed a few little baby snails in tank 4. They don't look quite the same as the pond snail babies in tanks 3 and 5. This made me wonder if they may instead be Nerites. But Nerites don't breed in fresh water. Well, I wanted to find out what Nerite snail babies look like and found a picture of Olive Nerite eggs. These look like the eggs seen in tank 4.

This tank has Red Onion Nerites and Horned Nerites. Rather than Tetra eggs, they must be Nerite snail eggs. And now I have some baby Nerites. The Nerites do such a great job cleaning that I will probably not try to kill the babies like the pond snails. Actuallly, I'll probably end up moving some to tank 1 as it is getting too much algae on the driftwood, leaves, and glass. The good thing is that algae is not in the water in these five tanks on an eight hour light-cycle.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Sad to tell you this.. but nerite young are free floaters. So they will be quickly sucked up by your filter or eaten by the fishies. There's no chance that the nerite young would have survived enough to be able to actually move around your tank . I'm positive those snails you see are either ramshorns or bladder snails.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> Sad to tell you this.. but nerite young are free floaters. So they will be quickly sucked up by your filter or eaten by the fishies. There's no chance that the nerite young would have survived enough to be able to actually move around your tank . I'm positive those snails you see are either ramshorns or bladder snails.


Dang it! I wouldn't mind having a few baby Nerites if there weren't too many. The others, I don't want. Maybe pond snail eggs would have caught a ride on a tool that I have used for clipping plants and for grabbing snail egg sacks to remove from the tanks. I don't know where ramshorns would have come from since I haven't added any plants to this tank for awhile. Is bladder snail another name for pond snail?


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

I am pretty sure what you have are bladder snails. Look at their eye stalks. Are they like "^" or like "|"? 

And the snail eggs can come from anywhere... and gets the best of us . Only 100% way to make sure your plants are snail free is if you dip them in like H2O2.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> I am pretty sure what you have are bladder snails. Look at their eye stalks. Are they like "^" or like "|"?
> 
> And the snail eggs can come from anywhere... and gets the best of us . Only 100% way to make sure your plants are snail free is if you dip them in like H2O2.


Thanks for the info. The snails I keep plucking out of tanks 3 and 5 are bladder snails rather than pond snails, as you suspected.

The baby snails in tank 4 still don't look like the baby bladder snails in 3 and 5. I guess I wont really know until they grow. The numbers of snails aren't that high. With me crushing them, or removing them, and all the empty snail shells left by the assassins, the bladder snails are not winning.

I'll have to read up on the procedure and start using an H2O2 wash whenever I add plants. Hopefully this is not detrimental to the plants.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Hm... if you can describe what the baby snails look like I suspect they are ramshorns. Might even be mini ramshorn snails.

Some plants can't survive an H2O2 wash. I'm not very familiar with it. What I do with my plants is soak them in a large bucket with some food on the bottom. Leave it like that for ~3 days and usually all the snails go onto the food. Of course.. it doesn't kill any eggs on the plants :\


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> Hm... if you can describe what the baby snails look like I suspect they are ramshorns. Might even be mini ramshorn snails.
> 
> Some plants can't survive an H2O2 wash. I'm not very familiar with it. What I do with my plants is soak them in a large bucket with some food on the bottom. Leave it like that for ~3 days and usually all the snails go onto the food. Of course.. it doesn't kill any eggs on the plants :\


I guess they kind of look like miniature ramshorns in shape. They are clear, or maybe gold. Skinny little antennae like the bladder snails. It looks like they have shells even when very small.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Are they carrying their shells vertically or horizontally. So side view.. is it like:

.O vs .=

if that makes any sense to you?


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> Are they carrying their shells vertically or horizontally. So side view.. is it like:
> 
> .O vs .=
> 
> if that makes any sense to you?


Vertically. That's why I acknowledged they resemble ramshorns. If they are ramshorns, then they came in with the plants long ago (several weeks) because that would be the first I have seen of that type of snail.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

So vertically = ramshorns. The horizontal ones are mini ramshorns. They're like different haha. The mini ramshorns don't grow larger than 0.5cm.


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## GMYukonon24s (May 3, 2009)

That's nice to know. I just kept thinking they were all pond snails that I had.


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## Wicket_lfe (Aug 21, 2008)

This has def inspired me to do something similar, great work!


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## Wicket_lfe (Aug 21, 2008)

where did you find the vases?


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

Wicket_lfe said:


> where did you find the vases?


These vases came from a local craft supply store. Similar pieces are found ocassionally at Michael's, Kroger/Fred Meyer, even Walmart. I would actually like to have vases of higher quality glass than these, but for now, it is just fine.


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## Wicket_lfe (Aug 21, 2008)

scottwww said:


> These vases came from a local craft supply store. Similar pieces are found ocassionally at Michael's, Kroger/Fred Meyer, even Walmart. I would actually like to have vases of higher quality glass than these, but for now, it is just fine.


 
Online i've seen 8X14, but none locally around me. So i got a 6x14 from a craft store for $5. lol.

I want to keep searching for the perfect size, but I am also getting impatient and want to start now.

Checked out a florist, and he wanted $85????


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

Thought I would mention something that happened with tank 1. Last week, I noticed that I had some fish that looked really sick. One looked nearly dead. There were white patches on their sides near their heads. This was the Panda corys.

I had noticed a couple days before, a large number of very small white things that looked like it was being carried by the current from the filter flow. Over the next couple days, these increased in number. There must have been several hundred of these, if not thousands.

Then I noticed that the air to this undergravel filter was not producing any circulation. There were no bubbles. 

I looked closer at this white stuff, and with a magnifying glass, I could see that this was little worms, wiggling to swim. rather quickly and together, to look like it was stuff suspended in the water current.

As near as I could determine, these must have been nematodes. Not that nematodes are necessarily a bad thing. But so many could not possibly be a good thing. This was when I first noted the splotches on the Corys. This didn't look good.

I restarted the undergravel filter hoping this would restore the prior balance.

I had also just put a couple nerrite snails into this tank to do something about all the algae that the worthless apple snail didn't care to eat. The algae was getting so bad that the plants leaves were covered enough that they just couldn't compete. Leaves were coming off the plants. The whole thing looked sickly. The horwart was a mass of algae. Hair algae grew from the driftwood and the stem plants.

The other four tanks didn't look like this at all. This tank was also one of the two low light tanks being at one end of the light strip.

I had just received my Coralife Turbo Twist 6x UV sterilizer, so I figured I would try it out on this tank to kill these nematodes that were going to kill my fish. And if there were any BGA in the water, it would deal with that, too. But the algae didn't seem to be suspended in the water, just on plants and wood.

The UV sterilizer needed to be connected with something to drive the water flow. So the next day, I bought a small power head rated at 120 gph.

Unfortunately the connectivity for the UV sterilizer was for 5/8" or 3/4" hose, not 1/2". So, I rigged hoses to connect, but they were "glued" with aquarium sealer (not glued to the UV sterilizer) as it is difficult (and too expensive) to get 5/8" to 1/2" hose barb reducers. The two I bought for another project cost $12 for two from an auto supply store. They didn't even have them in stock. They had to be ordered.

Of three nerrite snails in this tank, two looked dead as they hadn't moved in over a day, from their upside down shell on the bottom of the tank.

So, I'm making this a long story...

Well, the next day, I connected it all up. The power head delivered the water to the UV sterilizer, and returned to the tank.

I had already done about 150% water change the day before. This didn't rid the tank of the nematodes. It looked like it didn't even reduce their number enough to win the battle.

With the UV sterilizer connected, surprisingly the flow really didn't look over-powering at all. I had wondered if the 120 gph flow rate in 2.5 gallons water would just churn. But not at all.

I ran this for three or four hours, checking on it from time to time. The number of nematodes in the water kept declining. This thing was working quickly! And there was no filter connected.

I didn't want to leave this running overnight. I noticed that the water temperature had risen to 83 degrees. I disconnected and removed the UV sterilizer aparatus and restarted the undergravel filter again.

The next day, I was surprised to see no sign of nematodes. And the algae was looking like it was dead. Since then, still no nematodes. The water is extremely clear. The algae has turned like gray or black. I'll try to remove that dead stuff.

Although one of the Panda cories and a horned nerrite were lost, the red onion nerrite emerged from hibernation to start foraging. The cories and the betta look so much better. I'll have to look to determine whether there is any sign of their prior illness.










I had thought all the fish in this were going to die. But the UV sterilizer did a remarkable job. Most surprising was that the hair algae and the other algae all died even though they didn't pass through the UV sterilizer.

This was an amazing, and somewhat unexpectedly good result that would likely have been better if I had been prepared to act on it when the problem was first noticed.

Since I have been working on another project, I haven't paid much attention to these five little tanks. It must be I have to keep a watchful eye on them daily.


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## Wicket_lfe (Aug 21, 2008)

Lol so i just realized we have the same 37 gallon tank, and I'm inspired to do multiple vases by this thread, which is also you.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

Wicket_lfe said:


> Lol so i just realized we have the same 37 gallon tank, and I'm inspired to do multiple vases by this thread, which is also you.


I'm glad to hear that these little vases can be some inspiration.

Were I to start over with them, I would try to find a way to just get small canister filters for each of them. Or in using undergravel filters, with the four-outlet air pump, I wouldn't send all the output to a gang valve to split to five tanks the way I have done it here. I would keep the air outlets with each dedicated to just one tank. I have frequently been having to make very small adjustments to the gang valve just to keep air moving in all five tanks. 

What I think I will do is to get at least one canister to try on one of these tanks, then run just four of them with undergravel filtration.

Also, the undergravel filters are sometimes noisy. I could probably eliminate that by connecting the air line to an airstone to stick down the tube, rather than letting big bubbles make their noises. And the airpump I used was really overkill. I keep it turned down to minimum rate, and it still makes more hum than I would have wanted to accept. So, for all these reasons, and more, the more expensive canister filter would be the way to go.

Another thing I would change is, if I could find and afford them, to get better quality glass. The craft store vases are not optically appealing. No big deal if you aren't critical of your fish bowl display.

Another change I would make is to keep just the smallest fish. Even the Glowlight tetras seem a bit large for their little home. The Mosquito Rasbora seem to be ideal. The Ember Tetras are my favorite, but I think I would rather keep them in a larger tank and in larger number.

Ulitimately, I may just turn all five of these into betta bowls. Either that or shrimp bowls, and move the other fishes except the Mosquito rasbora to other quarters.

Despite hindsight, these vases have been interesting to keep. I like them. My wife likes them. Even my kid, and one of the cats likes them.

If I had more time and money, I might just upgrade them to five, fifteen gallon tall tanks. Side by side, that would be something like less than five feet wide, eighteen inches tall, and twenty inches deep. That would seem to leave a lot of potential to terrace the aquascapes, and to keep more than the smallest livestock. And I have determined that I prefer looking through flat glass. Yet as small as they are, two to three gallons of water change a week total is very easy to do.

I hope these comments don't dissuade you from doing multiple nanos together.


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## Wicket_lfe (Aug 21, 2008)

So i was hoping to keep it a surprise, but I kind of gave up on this idea, but I was thinking of having multiple Vases like these, on a egg crate stand in a window box/sump. So i would pump water from the sump up into the vases, and just let the water overflow back down into the planter box, like a fountain. Then I can just put heaters and such in the planter box, and increase total water volume. 

I might still do this, but the evaporation rate, and the risk of contaminents on such an open system, worries me.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Sorry to hear about your single tank troubles. I would do a large water change if you haven't already. If all those nemotodes died you might have some problems with an ammonia spike from their decaying bodies.

Glad everything is fine now though!


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> Sorry to hear about your single tank troubles. I would do a large water change if you haven't already. If all those nemotodes died you might have some problems with an ammonia spike from their decaying bodies.
> 
> Glad everything is fine now though!


Saturday is when I usually do a 30% water change on all five. I'll test for ammonia in tank 1. Yesterday I removed the plants and wiped off all the dead algae with a paper towel, then replanted them. There isn't any algae on the wood. I wiped dead algae off the glass.

This thing is really clean, with crystal clear water. I may just have to take the two nerites out to move them into a tank where they can find some algae to eat.

Edit: Ammonia test showed 0 ppm.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

Wicket_lfe said:


> So i was hoping to keep it a surprise, but I kind of gave up on this idea, but I was thinking of having multiple Vases like these, on a egg crate stand in a window box/sump. So i would pump water from the sump up into the vases, and just let the water overflow back down into the planter box, like a fountain. Then I can just put heaters and such in the planter box, and increase total water volume.
> 
> I might still do this, but the evaporation rate, and the risk of contaminents on such an open system, worries me.


That's something like what I had in mind for these vases when I was planning it out. I had thought that putting them into a 30 or 40 gallon tank to keep five bettas and fill the tank to keep other fish also would make an unusual display. But I don't know what to think about how it might actually turn out.

It would seem to be easy enough to have water returns to each of the five vases, and the water outlet to a canister filter from the main tank. But then your water parameters would be essentially the same for all tanks. Maybe that would be a good thing. It's still something I might do in the future. But then it might be best to just take the same 30 or 40 gallon tanks and add glass dividers. It would probably work just as well, if not better, and might produce a more attractive end result.

There are a lot of ways to do something like this. It would be interesting to see some examples and hear more ideas. It would seem that it would cost a lot less than having five small canister filters and five heaters. And in testing or correcting water parameters, you wouldn't have to do it five times.

I would be interested in seeing what you do with your idea. With yours, it might also work to have it as part of a "water feature" where the overflow from the vases runs down a waterfall or a little creek to a planted pond below, then is filtered and pumped back up to the vases.

There are some cool possibilities to consider.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Hm... interesting. Sounds like that UV sterilizer is magic and powerful stuff


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> Hm... interesting. Sounds like that UV sterilizer is magic and powerful stuff


I don't know.

Since getting the UV sterilizer, I've read more about it. There isn't that much said about it in the forums here. It seems to be something that gets a "shrug" response. Maybe this initial impression I got from what happened with tank 1 was just coincidence. 










I'm happy that the tank is looking good after a difficult few days, and what part in the recovery the UV sterilizer played, I don't know. But it is now "permanently" installed on another tank. I'll probably not ever take it down to run it on the nanos. I have thought of getting a Coralife Turbo Twist x3. At least that would hookup directly to 1/2" tubing. Then it could be run as needed on the nanos and on my kid's tank.

If the success here was due to the UV sterilizer, maybe it makes sense when you consider that redox of +400 mv is said by some to be where you want your freshwater aquarium (Tom Barr). Though most sound like they would not use a UV sterilizer to get there, or even care about redox, it sounds like a healthy system would work out to about that level.

In the case of this 2.5 gallon tank with 120 gph water flow through the UV sterilizer for a few hours, that must have produced redox well in excess of +400 mv.***

Something I read last night:

"In 1972, the World Health Organization adopted an ORP standard for drinking water disinfection of 650 millivolts. That is, the WHO stated that when the oxidation-reduction potential in a body of water measures 650/1000 (about 2/3) of a volt, the sanitizer in the water is active enough to destroy harmful organisms almost instantaneously." -link

How high the ORP (redox) went I may never know. I wonder how high it would have to go to kill the fish in the tank, or to kill the plants.

*** Edit: I may have misinterpreted some things on UV sterlizers and redox. It looks like a UV sterilizer reduces the millivolts rather than increases. So, when I ran the UV sterilizer on this tank, it probably brought it way low in Oxidation/Reduction Potential milivolts.


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## scottwww (Jan 22, 2012)

At least two of my CRS in tank 3 are very berried. 

I'll be moving over some of the fish from these nano vases to my new 37 gallon tank. That should make more of these nanos available to keep CRS.

If these eggs survive to grow into shrimplets, I should have some Crystal Red Shrimp available for trade in Boise.


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