# frroK's ADA Mini-M REDUX ! --journey complete



## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Ok, so I figure I should probably do this proper and start a journal for my ADA-Mini-M re-scape. Entitled, *REDUX* This tank was set up with driftwood and lava rock prior, in this thread. this time around I've opted to try an iwagumi layout. I've always been fascinated with them. And of course I take my inspiration from Amano AND lots of folks from this message board. Anyway, i've settled on the rock placement and got some great feedback in the Aquascaping section, you can read that here. As you may or may not know, I suffered some seriouos damage to my home from Super storm Sandy and I am just now finally able to start up some tanks again. Now that most of the work is done, I am able to dedicate some time to keeping tanks and pursuing my goals in aquascaping. 

So here is the latest from today. I was done with work early and finallly got around to planting. I am dry-starting for about 1 month or so, so that the HC can root. 

Flora:
Hemianthus callitrichoides
Staurogyne repens
Eleocharis acicularis
Echinodorus tenellus
Moss(hitchhiker)
Algae 

Lighting:
Aquaray Mini 400 65K.

Filtration:
Eheim 2211

Fauna: 
Either, boraras urophthalmoides, microdevario kubotai or boraras brigittae
Amanos and ottos

DAY 1









This is it. 12/29/13


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

Oh hello there. I was wondering when you were gonna get this thing rolling! Looks great already. :thumbsup:


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

*frroK's ADA Mini-M REDUX !*



freph said:


> Oh hello there. I was wondering when you were gonna get this thing rolling! Looks great already. :thumbsup:


Thanks dude!


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## Hayden (Feb 21, 2012)

Looks Awesome Frrok! I like S. Repens a lot, this scape looks really promising, keep us posted!


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Great start... I'm very interested in this LED light so I'll be following along the progress


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## Green_Flash (Apr 15, 2012)

Ditto, nice start.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

*frroK's ADA Mini-M REDUX !*



Brian_Cali77 said:


> Great start... I'm very interested in this LED light so I'll be following along the progress


Check out my old thread. This light works well. Although, I did have an issue with red plants. So you may want to take heed. 

Everyone else, THANKS!


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

sexy


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## junglefowl (Oct 30, 2012)

*frroK's ADA Mini-M REDUX !*

Finally planted!!! +1 love staurogyne repens!
So you don't have to use any thing to cover on top when doing the dry start method. Im new to this.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

*frroK's ADA Mini-M REDUX !*



junglefowl said:


> Finally planted!!! +1 love staurogyne repens!
> So you don't have to use any thing to cover on top when doing the dry start method. Im new to this.


Hey-- Thanks! I really like staurogyne as well. I didn't get a chance to use it in my old scape. But now I can. I took the photo before I covered the tank because otherwise it would get too foggy and the pic wouldn't have come out too well. 

I just used Saran Wrap and covered the top tightly. I open it every day for gas exchange. And it needs to be as humid as possible but not complexity wet. Otherwise you'll get Cyanobacteria! Learned that the hard way


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## junglefowl (Oct 30, 2012)

*frroK's ADA Mini-M REDUX !*



frrok said:


> Hey-- Thanks! I really like staurogyne as well. I didn't get a chance to use it in my old scape. But now I can. I took the photo before I covered the tank because otherwise it would get too foggy and the pic wouldn't have come out too well.
> 
> I just used Saran Wrap and covered the top tightly. I open it every day for gas exchange. And it needs to be as humid as possible but not complexity wet. Otherwise you'll get Cyanobacteria! Learned that the hard way


Thanks for the detail


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## Farmer (Jan 30, 2013)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> Great start... I'm very interested in this LED light so I'll be following along the progress


I just planted a tank with this LED's cousin the Grow beam 600. I love the look but too early to say how it grows stuff.

Linds


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## Fluffles (Jul 12, 2012)

frrok said:


> Check out my old thread. This light works well. Although, I did have an issue with red plants. So you may want to take heed.
> 
> Everyone else, THANKS!


Hey Frrok, can you elaborate on this? I have the same light and while my plants are very healthy and growing, no plants are showing any red.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

*frroK's ADA Mini-M REDUX !*

So here is a 5 day update: I am seeing considerable growth already in the HC. the staurogyne is pretty much the same. I do have more of both plants and I'm thinking of adding more to the plant mass. Hopefully it we speed things up. Plus, I somehow accumulated alot of plants. And I kind of need to get rid of some. I will most likely RAOK them soon, locally.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

*frroK's ADA Mini-M REDUX !*



Fluffles said:


> Hey Frrok, can you elaborate on this? I have the same light and while my plants are very healthy and growing, no plants are showing any red.


Well from my research I believe the reason for this , is that these lights have less blue and red in the spectrum. They may spike in more of the green spectrum. But Im just hypothesizing based off of researching forum posts from various sites. I have yet to see a spectrum chart on this light. It would probably be worth contacting TMC. I emailed the company that I ordered the light from and they suggested that I add more iron! Which was a bit insulting, since I was dosing EI. Another issue I had was that not only was my red ludwigia not red but it melted as well! Yet moss and green rotala was thriving!


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

*frroK's ADA Mini-M REDUX !*

Here is a quick update a closer up shot. The HC is spreading. But I did experience some melting. A quick google search and I got some info. Some people had luck with airflow during photosynthesis. So I open the saran wrap a bit when the lights are on. I replaced most of the melted HC with some that I have growing in a separate container emmersed.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

*frroK's ADA Mini-M REDUX !*

Almost there.


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

HC spreading good. S. repens looks great as well. Fill time very soon!


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

*frroK's ADA Mini-M REDUX !*



freph said:


> HC spreading good. S. repens looks great as well. Fill time very soon!


Yea man. Thanks. I don't keep the Saran Wrap tightly covered. Instead I open the corners to let some airflow in. It helped.


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

Looks awesome but the transition from HC to S. Repens is a bit much IMO. Are you gonna let the HC grow a bit taller near the SR to help with the transition?


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

*frroK's ADA Mini-M REDUX !*



Bserve said:


> Looks awesome but the transition from HC to S. Repens is a bit much IMO. Are you gonna let the HC grow a bit taller near the SR to help with the transition?


Most likely. I'm also thinking of adding some hairgrass Belem in between the S.repens and the HC when I flood. Still
Some stuff I'm thinking about. Thanks for the advice!


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

If you add hairgrass, you'll end up with what I've got going on in my Mini with the mixed grass/HC carpet. It's quite nice.  Hairgrass creeps hard.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

*frroK's ADA Mini-M REDUX !*



freph said:


> If you add hairgrass, you'll end up with what I've got going on in my Mini with the mixed grass/HC carpet. It's quite nice.  Hairgrass creeps hard.


I know and it looks great in your tank! But I'm not sure yet if I'm going to want to let that happen. Hairgrass is very invasive and grows faster than HC. I don't want to have to keep trimming runners. Cuz I would like to have most of the foreground be HC. I Have taller hairgrass for the background that I think I might mix with chains word. If I can find any. I'm hoping under high light it will stay somewhat short. 

But all this is still things that I'm thinking about... It could change before I add water. I'm going to be patient on this...


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

Wise choice. Honestly, it looks fine with just the HC and stauro. It has a simple, yet elegant look. It'll look even better once it's fully carpeted and filled.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

*frroK's ADA Mini-M REDUX !*



freph said:


> Wise choice. Honestly, it looks fine with just the HC and stauro. It has a simple, yet elegant look. It'll look even better once it's fully carpeted and filled.


Thanks man. I agree... I like simple.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

*frroK's ADA Mini-M REDUX !*

No pic update. Getting bored. Not seeing much more growth and some HC melted a bit. Most of it is healthy though. I'm going to flood this and blast the co2 very soon. Just haven't had the time since I've been working long hours. As soon as I get some downtime I'm hooking everything up. I'll take pics and maybe some video as soon as I can...


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

Stop working so much and give that wonderful tank some love!


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

*frroK's ADA Mini-M REDUX !*



freph said:


> Stop working so much and give that wonderful tank some love!


Finally a day off! 
Off topic but everytime you post on one of my threads I think that someone has hacked my account and posted on my behalf. Our screen names are similar with the fr. Haha


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Finally flooded! Today I took some time and got to work on setting up this thing proper. I did add some two more species of plants for the background.
Eleocharis acicularis
Echinodorus tenellus 
I was thinking of adding some hair grass Belem for in between the hc and s. repens but decided against it. I think I want to just practice on one foreground plant for this scape. Maybe next scape ill try a mix. Sorry for the crappy shot. It's late and I'm pretty tired from two surfing sessions and setting this up in between. 
The Hc looks kind of haggard right now and there's some green algae , which I think is Cyanobacteria on my aqua soil. Tmrw ill dose done H2O2. Should clear it up. Now that I got some time ill get and do more updates. I'll be dosing EI with a photoperiod of 8 hours to start. 3-4 bps. Let me know what you think!


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

Looks great.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

MamaJu said:


> Looks great.


Thanks!


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## junglefowl (Oct 30, 2012)

Look like the HC spread out really good in the tank...I love to see close up picture of the new plants...


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

junglefowl said:


> Look like the HC spread out really good in the tank...I love to see close up picture of the new plants...


Thanks. There was some die off but most of it looks good. I will try to take a shot with my better camera later today. Need to start daily water changes because I'm sure my ammonia is thru the roof.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Here's a quick video I shot with my iPhone 5. Just as I thought ammonia readings were high so did a 50% water change. Going to try and do one everyday this week. Luckily my 2211 is packed with bio media. I'm hoping I can cycle this in a week. By the way, the 2211 has the perfect flow for the mini-M.!

http://youtu.be/45LBLO2jPRc


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## junglefowl (Oct 30, 2012)

Really nice set up man!!! What will be tank's inhabitants!!! Taiwan bee???


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

junglefowl said:


> Really nice set up man!!! What will be tank's inhabitants!!! Taiwan bee???


Hmm, don't think I will be going with shrimps this time around. Most likely boraras sp. maybe boraras urophthalmoides. Some pics online show them with some yellow. I would like some yellow and green. Anyone who's ever had this species would like to chime in on coloration that would help. Hard to tell from all the different pics online.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Updated plant list. 
Flora:
Hemianthus callitrichoides
Staurogyne repens
Eleocharis acicularis
Echinodorus tenellus
Moss(hitchhiker)
Algae


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Here is a no -photo update. I'm a little embarrassed to show the tank in its current state. I'm dealing with a major outbreak of what I believe is most likely BGA. it's all over my plants, substrate and stones. It's basically covered my whole tank. I tried to does with h2O2 to kill it but the bubbles for the h2o2 were pulling my HC out of the aqua soil. So I've since stopped. I added carbon to the filter and water changes everyday. I've done some research on how to kill it and I think I'm going to try and hit it with erythromycin. I don't want to do a blackout because i dont want to slow down my plant growth. Only thing I'm worried about with the EM is killing my beneficial bacteria. Anyway, if anyone has any advice it would be much appreciated. As soon as I'm cycled I'm adding a whole bunch of algae eaters to to keep it in check after I dose the EM.


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

Have you tried sprinkling bacter 100? What's the flow like? Nitrate levels?


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

freph said:


> Have you tried sprinkling bacter 100? What's the flow like? Nitrate levels?


Don't have any bacter 100. My flow is great.my 2211 is working fine. Im dosing EI so I think im good there. 

The BGA outbreak happened before I even flooded the tank. It had developed on the Aquasoil due to the fact that I had too much water in the tank. kind of weird cuz there was no obvious pooling of water. My lights are really strong. So maybe it was just a little too wet. once I flooded the tank it spread everywhere! I tried dosing with h202, and some of it did die off but it came back with a vengeance. After this experience, I doubt I'll ever dry start again. If the EM doesn't work I may restart the tank.


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

EM will work. I've used Maracyn on two different tanks with BGA, both cleared up in 5 or so days.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Couesfanatic said:


> EM will work. I've used Maracyn on two different tanks with BGA, both cleared up in 5 or so days.


Cool. Thanks!


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## plecostomouse (Jun 9, 2011)

Just read the thread!
super nice tank, love the scape and the gear!
hopefully your algae issues go away quickly  

goodluck!


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Decided to post pic anyway. I trimmed the s.repens the other day because most of the emmersed leaves were melting away. I noticed that its starting to spread laterally through the rocks. Very cool. 

As you can see if you zoom in. The BgA is pretty much all over everything. Lol. I checked out a petco by my job yesterday but they didn't have maracyn. Looks like only petsmart carries it. There's one in soho; may stop by there tmrw during lunch or after work. I want to get rid of the this stuff fast. 

Another interesting note. Most of the HC is growing well and pearling intensely! It's just covered in BGA. The parts that are doing the best are in the upper corners of the tank. 

Another note. Ammonia levels have gone to 0 but nitrite is still pretty high. Hopefully it will clear in a day two and I can add Amanos.


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## CPDzeke (Jan 4, 2013)

You should see my BGA. Icky icky stuff. I wish I had no livestock, then I could nuke with Algaefix and Maracyn...


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## Hayden (Feb 21, 2012)

Hey frrok I had B. Urophthalmoides for a short period of time and they were more orange, maybe umber. Maybe a small yellow on the top of the stripe like in the picture. Not very strongly colored over all.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Hayden said:


> Hey frrok I had B. Urophthalmoides for a short period of time and they were more orange, maybe umber. Maybe a small yellow on the top of the stripe like in the picture. Not very strongly colored over all.


Hey. Thanks. I noticed a few different color variations online for sure. So this is good to know.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

plecostomouse said:


> Just read the thread!
> super nice tank, love the scape and the gear!
> hopefully your algae issues go away quickly
> 
> goodluck!


Hey. thank you for your nice comments!


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

It's been a week of dosing the EM and I'm sad to say that the BGA is still around. Some of it has died but I think the infestation is just too great. Plus I kept the co2 and fertz going while medicated the tank. That probably helped to keep some of it alive. Anyway, I went through all the packs of the EM, so rather than going out and buying more I'm just thinking of starting over and replanting everything. But this time no dry start. I have some HC and s.repens growing emersed right now but I will probably need to hunt down some more along with dhg. Every time I look at the tank it just makes me depressed. Had such good potential. Just goes to show that if you make one dumb mistake it screws up the whole system. What a waste of time!


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

I have a solution!


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

Can you suck most of it out with an airline tubing? I'd suck it out and then do the EM.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Couesfanatic said:


> Can you suck most of it out with an airline tubing? I'd suck it out and then do the EM.


I tried that but it sucks up the HC along with it.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

^ Dude, I have the same problem as you! My HC Cuba grows great but some of it is covered in BGA. Using a suction tubing, it just uproots part of the HC if I'm not careful.

It's interesting to see the HC Cuba's response to an Algae (bacteria) attack, it will send runners and grow new stems while the affect ones melt. What you get is a healthy top stem that floats away from the affected runners. 

I haven't tried EM yet, but I can tell you that a black out didn't work for me. The BGA was present in the filter media which is completely void of light. Limiting or increasing fertilizers did nothing but affect the rate of growth of my plants. 

This is what I'm going to try to do, maybe you can try this method before tearing this beau of a tank down:

Manual removal, 
Manual clean of filter media,
New Tubing for Canister filter,
EM or try Kanaplex's Seachem medication 
(You might have a strain of BGA resistance to EM)

Daily Bedtime stories to the plants, 1 hour before lights off.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

FlyingHellFish said:


> ^ Dude, I have the same problem as you! My HC Cuba grows great but some of it is covered in BGA. Using a suction tubing, it just uproots part of the HC if I'm not careful.
> 
> It's interesting to see the HC Cuba's response to an Algae (bacteria) attack, it will send runners and grow new stems while the affect ones melt. What you get is a healthy top stem that floats away from the affected runners.
> 
> ...


Yep. HC is growing fine. Actually pearling. But the BGA is so thick in some places within it. That I can't suck it out. I try and pull out as much as I could with tweezers. But it's tough to get it all without uprooting the HC. After the week of EM treatment, I cleaned the tank, pulled out more BGA. cleaned the glass and rocks, did a 90% water change and cleaned the filter media. There was no BGA in the media or my tubing. A lot of it is dying but there is a good amount that is still green. 

Really the only thing left to do is just clean everything again and pull out all the plants. My s.repens is dying back, It may have been affected by the EM. I'm not sure. But dhg, hc and e. tennelus is growing. . I have some leftover aqua soil I can replace with whatever I pull out inadvertently. I will most likely keep the hard scape in place just clean the rocks really good and get all the BGA off. Going to try and source some more plants and pump it with co2 and get the plants growing well from the start.

The journey continues...


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

bserve said:


> i have a solution!


? ..


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## CPDzeke (Jan 4, 2013)

How about a pic update?


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

CPDzeke said:


> How about a pic update?


I'll try to get a pic tonight... but too be honest... it looks like crap. :icon_frow


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Here's a pic. I'm trying h2o2 again. But double the dosage. Doubting wether this is worth it. It's pretty bad.


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## CPDzeke (Jan 4, 2013)

I know that feel bro...


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

That's some nasty stuff. You might want to reduce your lighting and find out the parameters of the water coming out of you tap..


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

CPDzeke said:


> I know that feel bro...


Damn! Yes you do. Exact same stuff... Pearls like crazy! Big bubbles... And slimy


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Since you have no livestock, can't you just do EM again but with a higher dose? Also, if you think your BGA is EM resistance, you can try Seachem's Kanalpex. The medication comes from the same family, I believe it's worth a shot rather than a total break down. 

I was also told copper does the trick but that will nuke everything.


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## synaethetic (Oct 4, 2011)

Frrok, that does not look like BGA to me, appears to be rhizoclonium. 
I had the same algae ruin my hc DSM, the one and only time I tried 

CPDzeke, that is deffinitly BGA.


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## CPDzeke (Jan 4, 2013)

Once I started PPS-PRO ferts it went away for me, at least the rhizoclonium. +1 about what synaethetic said.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

synaethetic said:


> Frrok, that does not look like BGA to me, appears to be rhizoclonium.
> I had the same algae ruin my hc DSM, the one and only time I tried
> 
> CPDzeke, that is deffinitly BGA.


Did you start your tank over? I'm leaning towards that.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Hey ffrok, my BGA is responding well to EM. I also thought it was rhizoclonium, which I had in my 6 gallon, but with my 60-P, this algae has a foul smell. 

Everything is working a lot better when I change my filter tube, try EM and new tube!


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## synaethetic (Oct 4, 2011)

frrok said:


> Did you start your tank over? I'm leaning towards that.


Yes I did. I have had much much better success growing HC from a submersed start.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

synaethetic said:


> Yes I did. I have had much much better success growing HC from a submersed start.


After your post...I did some more research and did look at some pics of rhizoclonium... And now I am thinking that I may have had this the whole time! No wonder the EM didn't really work. well, I dosed H202 a few times and did water changes and last night I looked at the tank and noticed that it may be on its way out. Not sure if my plants will bounce back though.. If I had more time I would hit it with peroxide everyday but since this was a holiday weekend I really only got a chance to do it twice since my last post. 

I have been growing some back up plants just in case in an emmersed set up. got some HC, e.tennelus and s. repens. only plant I dont have is the tall dhg. So, given the fact that this stuff is not BGA. Im considering adding some of my amanos from my 4 gallon so they can start munching away it. If the amanos dont die then I know its not BGA!(would hate for that to happen)

the saga continues....but Im determined to turn this tank around. stay tuned.....


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## synaethetic (Oct 4, 2011)

Amanos, h202 and manual removal will work the best for getting rid of it. I've had a little bit of luck using a toothbrush to snag it out. 

Spot treatments work best with H202 but maybe in your case you should do a standard dose for the whole tank.. I've heard lots of different opinions about how much to dose, i'd say 1ml for every gallon, once a day for a few days, any higher than that and it will probably screw up your plants and livestock. Cannot recall how the bio-media handles h202.

I've used h202 to rid my tank of spirogya in the past, just a light dose for a few days and it all dissappeared, the rhizoclonium should react similarly.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Ok. So I took the time yesterday to re-do almost the whole tank. I pulled out all the dead and algae infested HC, cleaned pipes, substrate, glass, filter media, etc. I didn't remove all the s.repens though. I did notice that some of it was clean but i did cut off all the plants that had algae. And pulled out a few. The roots on it were insane! Wish I took a shot of it. Must be the aquasoil. Also, added some more aquasoil since I also sucked alot of it out. Today I'm buying a new ammonia test kit to test my water and see if my beneficial bacteria can handle the possible ammonia spike. I also dropped my photo period to 8 hrs(10 before) and raise my light and inch or so. I think I'll keep the co2 at around 2-3 bps. See how that goes. I wish I had a little more HC but I think I think I did the best that I could with what I had. Here is a shot. Please exuse the quality it was late and I took it with my iPhone. 
Thanks for looking and let me know what you think.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

You're get a lush carpet of HC in no time. It's like riding a bike, once you grow HC it seem easier than the first time. Take a gander at my tank, the carpet is coming along nicely after the EM treatment.


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

looks good, I want that outlflow.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

FlyingHellFish said:


> You're get a lush carpet of HC in no time. It's like riding a bike, once you grow HC it seem easier than the first time. Take a gander at my tank, the carpet is coming along nicely after the EM treatment.


Cool man. Thanks for the encouragement. This is my first stab at HC and its been a rough ride so far. Just have to find a balance. I'm starting to get brown algae which I consider a good sign. No ammonia reading so adding three ottos to help. Next would be to add amano's but I'm waiting unt the HC roots well enough that they don't uproot it.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Couesfanatic said:


> looks good, I want that outlflow.


Aquatic Magic. Not bad at all. I like the smaller diameter. But I'm super careful not to break it. One broke already.


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## Green_Flash (Apr 15, 2012)

Good idea to just reset the tank, that can be the easiest solution to the problem. Does your LED have a dimmer? That might be handy.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Green_Flash said:


> Good idea to just reset the tank, that can be the easiest solution to the problem. Does your LED have a dimmer? That might be handy.


No. Top much $$ .. I made my light hanger so I can raise the light quite easily.


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

frrok said:


> Aquatic Magic. Not bad at all. I like the smaller diameter. But I'm super careful not to break it. One broke already.


Long story, but they no longer sell those pipes. They are using a different version.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Couesfanatic said:


> Long story, but they no longer sell those pipes. They are using a different version.


Do they look different? Oh well. Guess I got lucky with these.


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

Yes they are way different. Not worth buying. The bell is twice as big and the point downward like the do aqua pipes. They only have one suction cup. Complete junk if you ask me


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

ok so here is an update on the situation with this tank. Haven't felt that happy about it to be honest and Im a little embarrassed to show it but I don't know really what else to do. Im hoping some of you guys can help me out. I think I have the brown algae under control now. I had a pretty bad bout of it. I think my HC suffered as a result. I finally added some amano's and ottos to help eat it. I think they are doing a good job. that along with some water changes and its died off significantly. But my HC and s. repens are doing poorly. I think my S. repens has melted due to the constant change in environment. Ive read that they are like crypts. When you change something they melt back. I added a few new emmersed stems that I had as back up but I trimmed all the dead leaves away. Im hoping new leaves sprout back where I trimmed off. the roots are well established. Also my HC, although I see some new growth, its really slow to bounce back. Not sure if you can tell in the attached pic. Should I stick it out a little longer with the HC? OR start completely over..AGAIN with alot more of it? I think this is my main issue ....NOT having enough plant mass to start. I should have known this but being cheap or not having access to plants has made this journey difficult. I did add some more DHG behind the main stone to help speed up its progress. Anyway, im not quite at the point to start over again. I have invested so much. this can be a really good scape.... Wish Frank was here!! 
let me know what you think. thanks!


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

8/6. Less HC but mostly healthy. Things are settling down. Algae pretty much gone. Hairgrass and s. subulata(originally had e.tennelus but somehow melted) is sending runners.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Anyone have any tips for growing HC? the leaves are kind of small and its not really spreading. I dose EI, Co2 at or around lime green(actually re-filling my pb tank today) Have powersand and aqua soil, My light is pretty powerful and gives me about 50-55 PAR @14 inches, which is about where I have it suspended from the substrate right now. It did take a beating with some brown algae but that has since died back with the addition of amanos and ottos. The amanos have def uprooted some of the stems though, which is why it make look more sparse now. I am contemplating getting some more but I feel it if I get some more that is in emmersed pots it will just take forever to adjust. I think this is what may be happening here....but I'm not 100% sure. Other that that, the only other thing is that maybe my ferts are bad... but Im not sure that can happen. My fert bottles(dry diy mix) were sitting in storage for a few months during Sandy. After some google searching, it seems as though dry ferts can be fine as long as the temps stay reasonable. the other plants , like s.repens and s. subulata are starting to grow back. Am I not being patient, enough? I feel like everything is ready to go...

So if anyone has anything to add or are more experienced please chime in. thanks!


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## Ach1Ll3sH33L (Mar 1, 2012)

h.c can take a while to really root in and establish before it starts to spread when submerged, more so if it was grown emmersed in a pot. Ive found a little extra iron helps, as well as a double dose of excel to give it an extra kick in the ass to grow(this also helps prevent algae from smothering it. I would remove the amano shrimps if they've cleaned up the brown algae, in one of amanos old books he mentions amano shrimps being able to eat newer growth filiments.. i would have to find which book it was in, but this may also be a factor as well.


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## melanotaenia (Mar 26, 2013)

I would personally continue with what you have, because if you replant and start over you'll just go through the stages of algae blooms of a new tank.

Since HC is relatively inexpensive I would try to pick up 2-3 pots of it and spend a few hours breaking it up and planting strands throughout the open areas where you want it to be (if in fact you are trying to get a full front carpet).

I find that with HC, it will slowly grow at first, but once established grows better. I have also found that giving an Excel boost along with CO2 is very helpful in transitioning new emersed pots when planted. I have also found that lighting is far less important than CO2 and ferts in growing HC successfully.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Ach1Ll3sH33L said:


> h.c can take a while to really root in and establish before it starts to spread when submerged, more so if it was grown emmersed in a pot. Ive found a little extra iron helps, as well as a double dose of excel to give it an extra kick in the ass to grow(this also helps prevent algae from smothering it. I would remove the amano shrimps if they've cleaned up the brown algae, in one of amanos old books he mentions amano shrimps being able to eat newer growth filiments.. i would have to find which book it was in, but this may also be a factor as well.


I did remove one amano so far. I will look up some more info on what your talking about with amanos. thanks for the advice. need to pick up excel at some point.

also, i dose csm +B, that should have enough iron? not sure




melanotaenia said:


> I would personally continue with what you have, because if you replant and start over you'll just go through the stages of algae blooms of a new tank.
> 
> Since HC is relatively inexpensive I would try to pick up 2-3 pots of it and spend a few hours breaking it up and planting strands throughout the open areas where you want it to be (if in fact you are trying to get a full front carpet).
> 
> I find that with HC, it will slowly grow at first, but once established grows better. I have also found that giving an Excel boost along with CO2 is very helpful in transitioning new emersed pots when planted. I have also found that lighting is far less important than CO2 and ferts in growing HC successfully.


Do you think it will come back? it looks kind of stringy and small leaves. could that be a deficiency? this new batch of HC has been in the tank for almost 3 weeks now. it looked great in the begining but the brown algae kind of messed it up...


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## Ach1Ll3sH33L (Mar 1, 2012)

csm probably has enough iron, but i always mix a 1:4 (iron:micros) ratio
whats the other tank params, do you use r/o?


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Ach1Ll3sH33L said:


> csm probably has enough iron, but i always mix a 1:4 (iron:micros) ratio
> whats the other tank params, do you use r/o?


no r/o, my water is soft but I have seriyou stones. Like I said earlier, i have C02 @30ppm or so, dose EI, LED 65k aqua ray with 55 [email protected] inches. aquasoil and powersand. I think I have plenty of nutrients. iron thing is interesting though... if I can get some dry stuff. I can does a little extra and see if that helps.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

8/11 shot --Update from the weekend. I shot this with my canon G12 after a water change and maintenance. I think I am on the up swing with this tank. algae only develops on glass by the end of the week which is very easy to clean up. I consider that a good sign. HC slowly but developing new growth. and s.repens is also looking ok. some melting leaves but they were emmersed leaves on the bottom of some of the plants. I do notice something very odd. Dwarf Sag which is normally very hardy plant for me, for some reason has melted slightly. But is a runner. weird. not growing fast at all. DHG has been trimmed down to its base. most of the leaves were emmersed. I did make sure it was sending runners prior to trimming. hopefully it will show more compact growth over the next couple of weeks.

by the way, could the aquasoil powder be the problem? ive heard that there was a bad batch of these at point. i don't remember when that was from though. maybe im just shooting at straws... the journey continues. let me know what you think!y


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

As someone who has thought HC was an easy plant until my last 2 tries, something new I have tried that is working great is taking health HC an propagating that. I will just take a clump, plant about 3mm pieces. The healthy stuff grows much more quickly and breaking it up will obviously help it spread more quickly. I will just do one clump of healthy HC per day, discarding the unhealthy part. Only takes about 15 minutes or so, way easier than trying to plant the whole thing, especially under water.

You may want to add some water sprite or another fast grower, just float it.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

talontsiawd said:


> As someone who has thought HC was an easy plant until my last 2 tries, something new I have tried that is working great is taking health HC an propagating that. I will just take a clump, plant about 3mm pieces. The healthy stuff grows much more quickly and breaking it up will obviously help it spread more quickly. I will just do one clump of healthy HC per day, discarding the unhealthy part. Only takes about 15 minutes or so, way easier than trying to plant the whole thing, especially under water.
> 
> You may want to add some water sprite or another fast grower, just float it.


 Funny that you mention that...because thats what I've been trying to do. little by little. and I think its helping. I was thinking of trying to trim more and replant the tops.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

HC should not be this difficult to grow!  Atleast the s.repens is sort of growing back. And the chain sword I added has some new growth. Hairgrass looks like poo. Spindly blades. Not growing thick after trimming ... I thought that's supposed to happen when you trim it? All about done with this scape. I really have no clue what the issue is. I even started dosing .5 ml of excel. But I'm not sure if its hurting or helping the HC. I reset my dosing bottles to see of maybe they went bad... Not sure about that. I'm starting to think that maybe using powder aquasoil is somehow causes me these issues. Other people with similar setups but normal AS don't seem to have these issues. I went by a local hobbyist who has similar parameters but larger tank and his HC is thriving! (Although he has t5s as well as led). So I don't know. Failing sucks.


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## ThatGuyWithTheFish (Apr 29, 2012)

Having the powder type is definitely not the problem. Amano uses it in all his scapes, not just small ones. I'd say something is not right. Not enough nutrients, too much light, or too much CO2, I'm not sure. Play around with it. And I'd maybe try T5s, too.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Having the powder type is definitely not the problem. Amano uses it in all his scapes, not just small ones. I'd say something is not right. Not enough nutrients, too much light, or too much CO2, I'm not sure. Play around with it. And I'd maybe try T5s, too.


thanks for the advice, I guess your right about the Aquasoil powder. ADA does suggest using it in nanos. As I've said before. I am dosing EI. I had my ferts in solution bottles for awhile in storage after Sandy. I just kept on using them after I got back into my place and set the tank up again. I tested my nitrates and there was a def reading. So I didn't think I was lacking anything. I used this calculator to mix my solutions into a 8fl(around 240ml) dosing container. I refilled them the other day just to make sure anyway. my C02 should be around 30ppm, drop checker is lime/yellow green. fish are ok. i have soft water but with the seiryu stone I tested my GH and it goes up to around 8 by the end of the week right before my water change. I have started dosing Excel. My light is 65k high powered Aquaray LED and I get about 55 PAR @14 inches. I actually lowered it again to maybe see if it will spark new growth. I had a bout of cyano when I first dry-started which turned into rhizoclonium after I flooded. I tried killing it with H202 but may have overdoesed it. the HC took a hit. so I removed most of it along with the algae and did a mjor cleaning of everything. After I took care of that I replanted most of the plants. And it been a struggle ever since. the HC starts to grow then some of it melts. the s.repens died back completely but just started to get itself together. Overall growth is slow on all sp., contrary to all the research I have been doing on the plants and the system I am using. reg DHG is normally a fast grower if there is ample amounts of light a C02. but its slow for me. 

I got some more submersed HC from a fellow local hobbyist. It too started to melt. The pieces you see is left over cuttings that i still need to plant. Im hoping with more plant mass I can get things moving again. I am almost ready to give up... I've invested so much so far, I can't get new lighting because I honestly cannot afford to. I need to stick with what I got and see what happens. Im skeptical that its the lighting because I had nice growth with it in the previous scape --> notice the plant mass.


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## ThatGuyWithTheFish (Apr 29, 2012)

Yeah, but those are all very easy plants.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

It doesn't look like you have any fish and your drop checker is yellow, I am wondering if you are putting in too much CO2. It's fine if you are using more than you would if you had livestock but I had major issues when going well above what livestock can handle (as in 2x-3x as much if not more). 

As soon as I dialed back my CO2 to a more "realistic" level, my plants started to do much better. I still am far from being where I want but I had all sorts of issues before that. I honestly don't know what the problem was, it wasn't the first time I did that but it helped. 

You can get some idea of what was going on in my 13 Stones journal in my sig. It talks mostly about Glosso as that was my plan but I did have HC in there that was doing the exact same thing, it sounds like. It would grow but melt as it grew, never really getting much bigger as the melting/growth were about the same. Now it is spreading very well that I adjusted my CO2, and a few other things that seem to be less important.


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## Forumsnow (Feb 22, 2012)

I had hc growing in low light, no fert, no co2 like mad. Easy inch of growth a week. It is a very very easy plant to grow, try making things more simple


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

talontsiawd said:


> It doesn't look like you have any fish and your drop checker is yellow, I am wondering if you are putting in too much CO2. It's fine if you are using more than you would if you had livestock but I had major issues when going well above what livestock can handle (as in 2x-3x as much if not more).
> 
> As soon as I dialed back my CO2 to a more "realistic" level, my plants started to do much better. I still am far from being where I want but I had all sorts of issues before that. I honestly don't know what the problem was, it wasn't the first time I did that but it helped.
> 
> You can get some idea of what was going on in my 13 Stones journal in my sig. It talks mostly about Glosso as that was my plan but I did have HC in there that was doing the exact same thing, it sounds like. It would grow but melt as it grew, never really getting much bigger as the melting/growth were about the same. Now it is spreading very well that I adjusted my CO2, and a few other things that seem to be less important.


I do have 2 ottos and an amano. When the co2 is on the fish are considerably less active. I will try and dial back the co2 a tad to see if that helps. I would likely have to raise my lighting as well though. . . That diffuser is very efficient maybe I need to keep an eye on it. But well see. Thanks for the advice. 'll check out your thread


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

frrok said:


> I do have 2 ottos and an amano. When the co2 is on the fish are considerably less active. I will try and dial back the co2 a tad to see if that helps. I would likely have to raise my lighting as well though. . . That diffuser is very efficient maybe I need to keep an eye on it. But well see. Thanks for the advice. 'll check out your thread


If it's not too much for fish, it may not be your problem. I just didn't see anything so made the assumption. Another thing that I feel helped me was floating some plants. I don't like floaters so I just use fast growing stems. Easy to remove but the same effect as floaters.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

talontsiawd said:


> If it's not too much for fish, it may not be your problem. I just didn't see anything so made the assumption. Another thing that I feel helped me was floating some plants. I don't like floaters so I just use fast growing stems. Easy to remove but the same effect as floaters.


looks like you were having similar issues. ok, i do have some frog bit in another tank... i can try and throw some in... cant hurt right? or maybe some rotala. i just dont want to uproot anything.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

frrok said:


> looks like you were having similar issues. ok, i do have some frog bit in another tank... i can try and throw some in... cant hurt right? or maybe some rotala. i just dont want to uproot anything.


That would work fine. The only thing I really don't like with floaters and HC (not that I ever purposely did it) is it's hard to separate the HC from the floaters compared so stems. Outside of that, it should do exactly the same.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

frrok, one thing I forgot to add is dosing Excel daily helped me start to turn my tank around as well. I do the dosage recommended after water change each day, 5ml per 10 gallons. I am sure you know plenty about Excel but not only does it help plant growth, even with pressurized co2, it also acts as an algaecide at the same time for certain types of algae so results are not only good, they were quick for me as well. That may be your biggest help.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

talontsiawd said:


> frrok, one thing I forgot to add is dosing Excel daily helped me start to turn my tank around as well. I do the dosage recommended after water change each day, 5ml per 10 gallons. I am sure you know plenty about Excel but not only does it help plant growth, even with pressurized co2, it also acts as an algaecide at the same time for certain types of algae so results are not only good, they were quick for me as well. That may be your biggest help.


Thanks!! I have been dosing it everyday. I only dose about .5ml though. I may raise it over time.


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## Jonnywhoop (May 30, 2012)

Hey, sorry you're having such problems with your HC. Is that an airstone in the back right? It could be out flowing the co2 that's being pumped into the tank. Also maybe you filled up your tank too soon? I just skipped to the last page of your thread to respond. 

Your light could also be fairly weak.... I'm using a 6x 39w t5ho in DSM mode and my plants are booming. I'm planning on turning on the last two bulbs for a sun afternoon burst. Picking up some more HC and replanting maybe a good idea as someone stated. It would take forever to fill everything in! I'll try to repost a better response after work today.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Jonnywhoop said:


> Hey, sorry you're having such problems with your HC. Is that an airstone in the back right? It could be out flowing the co2 that's being pumped into the tank. Also maybe you filled up your tank too soon? I just skipped to the last page of your thread to respond.
> 
> Your light could also be fairly weak.... I'm using a 6x 39w t5ho in DSM mode and my plants are booming. I'm planning on turning on the last two bulbs for a sun afternoon burst. Picking up some more HC and replanting maybe a good idea as someone stated. It would take forever to fill everything in! I'll try to repost a better response after work today.


Hey thanks for trying to help. i appreciate it. The air stone only runs at night after the lights and co2 are off for aeration. I've tested my lighting and I get about 55 @ 14 inches, which according to most research is mid-high light. And I already added some more HC two occasions. even submersed plants melt. So I've pretty much looked at everything...


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## Ach1Ll3sH33L (Mar 1, 2012)

Whats the gh of your tap? You might be low on mg/calcium. you might try adding some mg(epsom salts) and see if things improve. use wets calculator to determine how much to add. ca to mg ratio should be around 3:1 or 30ppm ca and 10ppm of mg at the minimum.


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

keep it up, you will get it figured out. Both old and new scapes look good.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Ach1Ll3sH33L said:


> You said before you were using r/o water and relying on seryui stone to raise the gh? correct this if im wrong.
> If that's the case, you probably have a calcium/magnesium deficiency. Seruyi stone tends to raise tds levels, but not necessarily replenish calcium back into the water, nor magnesium for that matter. Mg is the fundamental building block of plant structure so to speak, so if this is low or absent, plants wouldnt do very well. Whats your tap water like? i heard ny has great tap water, maybe not your area however? most people tend to try and reach a gh of 6. You might try cutting your r.o with tap water, try and reach a gh of 6.


Gh of tank after a week is 8. my tap is around 2. I never said I was using r/o, just said i have soft water. my test kit is right around the three year mark. Im hoping its still reliable. i don't have the $$ to buy new ones but accroding to my test it should be accurate. i thought that seiryu raises your hardness...hence ca/mg...? it is in my case.


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## Ach1Ll3sH33L (Mar 1, 2012)

frrok said:


> Gh of tank after a week is 8. my tap is around 2. I never said I was using r/o, just said i have soft water. my test kit is right around the three year mark. Im hoping its still reliable. i don't have the $$ to buy new ones but accroding to my test it should be accurate. i thought that seiryu raises your hardness...hence ca/mg...? it is in my case.


i edited my post after i went back and re-read. seryui can raise hardness, i wouldn't rely on it to feed calcium however, though gh is only a measure of calcium and not magnesium, so you could still be lacking mg. If it were me, i would add mg just so i know its present, you cant overdose it, and its one less things to rule out. it takes about 1-2 weeks for plants to recover from low mg, though it should be noticeable after a week.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Ach1Ll3sH33L said:


> i edited my post after i went back and re-read. seryui can raise hardness, i wouldn't rely on it to feed calcium however, though gh is only a measure of calcium and not magnesium, so you could still be lacking mg. If it were me, i would add mg just so i know its present, you cant overdose it, and its one less things to rule out. it takes about 1-2 weeks for plants to recover from low mg, though it should be noticeable after a week.


Ok cool. I'll try it. Thx -- I have seachem booster or you think I just just add epsom salt ?


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## Ach1Ll3sH33L (Mar 1, 2012)

you can add equilibrium, but this will also raise your gh, so maybe try just epsom salts to raise mg without also raising gh(calcium)


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

HIGH TECH TANK FAIL. Finally getting growth but also more algae. Next week I have to go out of town for work. So this tank will most likely collapse. I am going to raise the light and drop the co2 to 1 bps and dose once before I leave. When I get back I am going to dump all the HC and try something else. Everything else is growing. I already see some algae that looks like either hair algae or stag horn growing on the stones. Can't really tell. Also there is some GDA AND GSA in the glass.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

After almost two weeks away from the tank I came back to an algae farm. Even though I took appropriate measures in the end it didn't matter. I had a brief power outtage when I was away and the digital timer than runs my co2 reset. I wasn't able to explain how to reset it to my gf. So the tank was basically co2 -less half the time. See below for the before and after. I cleaned it all up this weekend and added some dhg belem in between the HC since I'm having so much trouble getting it to carpet. I may just pull all of the HC since some really cyano bacteria grew all over it. I cleaned up most of it though. It will take some time to get rid of some if the bba though. I have a lot of it on my stones. Along with spot algae. You'll notice I have a different diffuser. It's only temporary since I had to clean my atomic with bleach since it had bba growing all over it. It's soaking in prime at the moment. Thx for looking. Pls comment if you like. 
BEFORE.








AFTER.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Cleaned up nicely... sorry to hear about the disaster you had to come home to. Sucks the power went out.


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## bitFUUL (May 14, 2010)

Yeah nice clean up!

I've had the same power problem. An outage caused a misalignment in my lighting, CO2, and nightlighting. Looks like you handled it well though.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> Cleaned up nicely... sorry to hear about the disaster you had to come home to. Sucks the power went out.


Thanks. Yea man. Those digital timers kind of suck if you unplug them. They reset.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

bitFUUL said:


> Yeah nice clean up!
> 
> I've had the same power problem. An outage caused a misalignment in my lighting, CO2, and nightlighting. Looks like you handled it well though.


Thank you. I'm hoping I can turn this tank around.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

That's strange... don't the digital timers have a back-up battery in them? Mine does.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> That's strange... don't the digital timers have a back-up battery in them? Mine does.


Oh really? I had no clue. Haha, Maybe they do an mine expired. I'll check today. Thanks for the tip!


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## PeterN1986 (Jun 15, 2011)

You had a power outage in Far Rockaway? Stupid ConEd


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

PeterN1986 said:


> You had a power outage in Far Rockaway? Stupid ConEd


Lol. It's actually not conEd. We have LIPA out here for gas and electric.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Atomic diffuser back in and better than ever. Nice and white. Amazing what a little bleach soaking can do!


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## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

frrok said:


> Atomic diffuser back in and better than ever. Nice and white. Amazing what a little bleach soaking can do!


Bleach destroys algae. I love it to clean my pipes.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Looks good... I'm not sure if this matters any in a nano tank, but I've been always told to place the drop checker on the opposite end of the diffuser. 

You should probably (just a suggestion), put the diffuser on the same side as the outflow so you can get a better distribution of the co2. Then again, it's a small tank so I'm not sure if it matters?


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> Looks good... I'm not sure if this matters any in a nano tank, but I've been always told to place the drop checker on the opposite end of the diffuser.
> 
> You should probably (just a suggestion), put the diffuser on the same side as the outflow so you can get a better distribution of the co2. Then again, it's a small tank so I'm not sure if it matters?


Cool. Thanks for the suggestion Brian. Never really thought about it. But I think it makes sense.


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## ThatGuyWithTheFish (Apr 29, 2012)

Why is your inflow pipe backwards?


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Why is your inflow pipe backwards?


It's an aquatic magic lily pipe. That's how they are made. Not sure of the reasoning behind it. It was $50 shipped for the set. So that's your answer right there.


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

any update?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I don't know why I didn't see this but nice recovery. It looks like you have finally found some sort of balance here so I hope this keeps going well.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Couesfanatic said:


> any update?


Not much to update. I'm doing maintenance tonight, I'll snap a pic. Thx!


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

talontsiawd said:


> I don't know why I didn't see this but nice recovery. It looks like you have finally found some sort of balance here so I hope this keeps going well.


Hey thanks man. Still struggling with some algae but it's definitely coming around, albeit slowly.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

As promised. 

BBA And hair algae slowly starting to take over. I tried to dose with h2o2 but I'm not diligent enough with it. Just don't have the time. I've just about had enough with this scape/tank. I was going to stock with some rasboras but now I'm starting to reconsider. I'm going on a 2 week trip in January and I'd rather not stock then have to figure out what to with fish. I think want to rescape this again anyway. So. I'll see this tank through until the end of the year and most likely rescape when I get back from my trip. Or unless algae gets out of control. I might just tear it down and save some ferts and co2. Lol. I feel like I need a clean break. New soil, new hardscape, plants, etc... Hell, maybe even new filter media. Start completely fresh. We shall see. My real passion is to get a bigger tank. But my current financial situation makes it unfeasible. And I refuse to get a cheap tank. Just not my style. Anyway, thanks for all the help everyone. It's really nice to have this community of people who you can count on for support.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

frrok said:


> As promised.
> 
> BBA And hair algae slowly starting to take over. I tried to dose with h2o2 but I'm not diligent enough with it. Just don't have the time. I've just about had enough with this scape/tank. I was going to stock with some rasboras but now I'm starting to reconsider.


Dare I say Algae fix, especially if the tank isn't stocked. H2O2 can negatively effect HC, many says it doesn't, I know it does. Not as bad as Excel but it can destroy it. Algae fix may not kill BBA, I really can't remember but it lets you get ahead of things and is super easy. 

It just looks like you are starting to win in the pics. Even if you just cleaned the glass, plants are looking good.


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

It does look good, just needs some growth. More plant mass might help with the algae. I would turn the co2 up if possible.

I know how it is to want to ignore the tank for a while. Sometimes I just take it down and leave it empty for a while. Throw some soil in there eventually and plan a scape when you get the time.

I'm in the same boat with wanting a bigger tank. I'd love to do a 90p or 120p but I really shouldn't while I am busy with school/career stuff. A couple years down the road and I will. You should throw some cherry shrimp in there. Make a little bit of money just to keep in the hobby fund. Thats what I do anyway.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

talontsiawd said:


> Dare I say Algae fix, especially if the tank isn't stocked. H2O2 can negatively effect HC, many says it doesn't, I know it does. Not as bad as Excel but it can destroy it. Algae fix may not kill BBA, I really can't remember but it lets you get ahead of things and is super easy.
> 
> It just looks like you are starting to win in the pics. Even if you just cleaned the glass, plants are looking good.


I do have some livestock, 2 amanos and an otto. but I can easily move them if I had to. And I agree with H2o2 and HC. I killed the first batch of it that I had dosing too much. Plants are growing but so is the algae. Only a matter of time before the algae wins. thanks for helping man...its appreciated.



Couesfanatic said:


> It does look good, just needs some growth. More plant mass might help with the algae. I would turn the co2 up if possible.
> 
> I know how it is to want to ignore the tank for a while. Sometimes I just take it down and leave it empty for a while. Throw some soil in there eventually and plan a scape when you get the time.
> 
> I'm in the same boat with wanting a bigger tank. I'd love to do a 90p or 120p but I really shouldn't while I am busy with school/career stuff. A couple years down the road and I will. You should throw some cherry shrimp in there. Make a little bit of money just to keep in the hobby fund. Thats what I do anyway.


Theres a lot of plants but at this point this tank has been running for so long that it really doesn't matter. algae has already settled in. Unless I keep on top if it everyday its only going to get worse. Thanks for the help man...means alot.


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## Fat Guy (Nov 19, 2003)

ok whoa!! just finished reading your journal. man, you have been on quite the journey with the tank. I showed my wife the youtube video you took and said "see, that's a cool little tank out there on the rock. yeah?" she agreed. 

But man oh man did the algae monster come looking for you!! But first off, let me say, I think your tank looks awesome right now. It looks like it is starting to bounce back in a major way but it may be too late if it is starting to get under your skin. I think by January it should be pretty lush. The mini m's are hard because it is such a small amount of water. And when you start tinkering with it to address a problem that arises like bga, aquarists like ourselves feel like we are chasing after the wind. I forget who wrote the comment in this thread, but somebody had mentioned that it may be fortuitous to simplify. Once you start throwing erythromycin into the water the road can get quite bumpy. 

Did you say that you measured the PAR from this light? What is your photoperiod btw? I've only had bga issues once in a 29g more than 10 years ago....whoa. I remember I had manually removed it and increased the water flow which seemed to help. How often do you clean your filter? Once a month? Do you change the filter floss media for the 2211 near the propeller? I change mine every three weeks or so and replace it with batting. It always gets way dirtier than I imagined and has a dramatic effect on the water flow. 

What's also hard with these small tanks is that when we address a problem or change a particular aspect pertaining to the water quality, we want to see results immediately. sometimes it takes weeks before we see results and take notice of how our plants respond. but if the result doesn't formulate sooner, we go at it harder. I'm speaking solely for myself and my experiences here but I think you may be able to glean something out of this diatribe I'm having. 

Not sure what your tank regiment is like, but I think you should rinse your filter media, switch out the filter floss, raise the light on your tank a few inches higher, reduce your photo period to 6 hours and manually remove any algae you see along the way. bga is a bacterial problem, which your most aware of, but maybe these little adjustments will calm the algae storm. I've read how cyanobacteria thrives off of the smallest available nutrients, but don't let that keep you from dosing. and don't forget the co2. keep it cranking if you don't have any fauna in there. This all should buy you some time and maybe make the tank more manageable. And those plants will grow. they will most definitely grow. 

clean filter, ample light (you don't need high light intensity for those plants), more than adequate co2, and ferts and you will be ok. 

Not sure what you will need to do when you go away for your trip that you mentioned. You could possible raise the light even higher when you are gone and keep the photoperiod to 6 hours and your nutrient co2 demand will be more manageable in your absence. just some thoughts for the surfing aquarist out on the rock.

-w


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Fat Guy said:


> ok whoa!! just finished reading your journal. man, you have been on quite the journey with the tank. I showed my wife the youtube video you took and said "see, that's a cool little tank out there on the rock. yeah?" she agreed.
> 
> But man oh man did the algae monster come looking for you!! But first off, let me say, I think your tank looks awesome right now. It looks like it is starting to bounce back in a major way but it may be too late if it is starting to get under your skin. I think by January it should be pretty lush. The mini m's are hard because it is such a small amount of water. And when you start tinkering with it to address a problem that arises like bga, aquarists like ourselves feel like we are chasing after the wind. I forget who wrote the comment in this thread, but somebody had mentioned that it may be fortuitous to simplify. Once you start throwing erythromycin into the water the road can get quite bumpy.
> 
> ...


Thanks for reading my journal. I believe I shortened my photoperiod to 7 hours now. I've also raised my lighting and over the weekend I finally put in a shade so there should be no sunlight issues from now. I just feel this tank has been cursed from the beginning. Lol. Cyano is actually not much if an issue anymore. It's more BBA Now. But I have a plan in place to fight it. The slow growth thing is definitely bumming me out though. And the HC issue. Really don't understand why it would not want to spread. Anyway, I'm going to see this tank through until the holidays but I won't be adding anymore livestock. Not sure if I'll try HC again. Might go a different route on plants. We'll see. I really loved this hardscape it's just too bad the layout didn't quite come out how I envisioned it in my head. But hey, I'm still learning and I consider myself a newbie as far as aquascaping goes. Let's see what the next scape brings... Oh and the PAR is 55 @14 inches. Give or take...


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Tank is kind of on its way back. Things are growing and algae is at bay. So let's see if my plan works out... I'll take an update shot soon.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

11/7. Its been a little over a week and as you can there is def some improvement on growth. Also, I think i've managed to hold off the BBA. I think that adding a shade to the window that is next to my tank, dramatically decreased the rate of algae growth. Also do not get as much on the glass after a week. I still am a little disappointed on the growth of the hair grass... I would have liked it to growth a little taller behind the E.tennelus. Under this light it grows shorter and slower. Which, according to my research, it should grow as weed and certainly taller. The belem hair grass is a stark difference, it is spreading at a nice pace. not super fast but enough to where I am seeing progress. Belem growth pattern is a definitely different to regular dhg, as it grows shorter and curves down toward the substrate. it will have a nice effect once fully carpeted. thats all for now.. let me know what you think...


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## Fat Guy (Nov 19, 2003)

lookin good! maybe I can send you some e. acicularis from my tank once I thin it out some to grow in the back behind the e. tenellus if you are having some issues. mine gets over 9" and grows like mad.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Fat Guy said:


> lookin good! maybe I can send you some e. acicularis from my tank once I thin it out some to grow in the back behind the e. tenellus if you are having some issues. mine gets over 9" and grows like mad.


Ok cool man. Thanks so much. I actually have a whole bunch growing in my emmersed tank right now. I originally bought mine from pacific and it was tall. But as it transitioned the new growth seemed to be shorter. Maybe it has something to do with LEDs? I have pretty strong lighting. I know there are differences in growth patterns between t5/fluorescents and LED. a neat experiment would be to test it out under t5... See what happens.


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## Fat Guy (Nov 19, 2003)

ok cool. looks like you have the e. acicularis on backup already so you won't need any from over here. pretty sure the plant that pacific gets is grown emersed in those cups and then they submerge it in their tanks when they get it. sometimes they get them with flowers on it too, which I've never seen underwater. they just put some new tanks in the back of their shop (a long overdo update). Waiting for them to get some male endlers in for my edge. glad you didn't give up on the tank. it looks great cleaned!! these little tanks need crazy maintenance for them to keep looking good with high light over them. I'm sure the window shade is working wonders. sunlight can really get the algae going. for your bba have you upped your co2? I noticed a small tuft appearing on one of my rocks. It wasn't black though, it was light green but looked just like a bba tuft. I increased the co2 and everything is peaches now. You bleached your atomic diffuser right? I picked up an acid wash for my inline diffuser from GLA which is amazing. three drops of it cleans it pretty well if you let it sit for more than 30 minutes. I read somewhere not to use bleach on the atomic diffusers? I'm not sure what it does exactly to it though. anyway. co2 fluctuations can be a big issue too. another thing to keep maintained. lookin good. keep it up!


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

After my water change yesterday I decided to try something out. I lowered my light! I know I know. I'm asking for trouble. But I'm hoping it will spark some life back into my HC. All in all things look ok. Well see what happens in another month. Latest shot:


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Growth are the tennelus is now almost daily or every other day. Pretty crazy. Hair algae starting to form tho and BGA rearing it's ugly head. What a battle. Can't wait to take it all down and start completely fresh! Lol. 
What do I have to do to get the HC to grow faster and carpet. It's pearling tho...


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

Change that title!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Bserve said:


> Change that title!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


haha...done. wish I could get fish but not really worth it since I'm going away in January. can't depend on anyone to look after the tank since ill be gone for 2 weeks.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

growing. and so is hair algae. not sweating it. i see a little HC growth as well. if you compare the last photo to this one, you'll notice it. also, my atomic went kaput. i think cleaning it with bleach ruined it but I'm not really sure. so i put in a glass diffusor. may be the reason why i have algae. inconstistant co2? if I get a chance this weekend, I'll take a nicer photo.


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

I'd bet that diffuser is the cause of the algae. The scape is filling in nice and coming together. Looks great.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Couesfanatic said:


> I'd bet that diffuser is the cause of the algae. The scape is filling in nice and coming together. Looks great.


Thanks bud. I really didn't believe it would look this nice. Haha. I'm going to set up one nice photo before I tear it down. Already have some ideas for a new scape!


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## DizzyD (Apr 24, 2013)

I love the way you have your rocks. Looks very simple and neat.


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## Fat Guy (Nov 19, 2003)

yeah. I've heard that bleach will do that with the atomic diffusers. I acid wash mine every three weeks or so. works well. inconsistent co2 is definitely a plausible algae inhibitor. glad you didn't take the tank down yet. I'd love to see the repens fill in and thrive more and get lush throughout the background maybe even replace what you have in the bg. but that's just where my mind goes. looks good.


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

any update frrok?


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

probably needs a trim soon... but I am tearing it down before I go on vacation. If I have time Im going to take a better shot. unfortunately I killed some of my HC on the left side of the tank overdosing H202  so its not really ideal.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

DizzyD said:


> I love the way you have your rocks. Looks very simple and neat.



Thank you!!


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Final Shot. Almost done tearing it down. I think I came along way. I am def satisfied in the way it turned out. for my second aquascape I think it came out well. I learned so much. thanks for everyone who followed along. New scape coming in 2014.
ps. taking a good shot is harder then it looks. :icon_cool


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

roud:


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

Outstanding result and final picture! Looks awesome. What are your plans for the rescape?


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Couesfanatic said:


> Outstanding result and final picture! Looks awesome. What are your plans for the rescape?


thanks!

I'm thinking of a triangle design for my next one...from right to left. stones and wood. we'll see... thats sort of what I have in my head right now. probably similar plants...but not quite sure what to do about foreground yet...

it won't be for awhile though.. I need to source some aqua soil plus going away on trip...


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## Charlieeex3 (Aug 18, 2013)

Wow just finished reading your journal and it seemed you came a long way lol. I'm curious what did you do to get your final result? Your plants seem to be greener. Did you change your light system?


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Charlieeex3 said:


> Wow just finished reading your journal and it seemed you came a long way lol. I'm curious what did you do to get your final result? Your plants seem to be greener. Did you change your light system?



No change in lighting. Same 65k LED. Just took a photo with a better camera for the final shot Instead of my iPhone. It's amazing what a better camera can do. Manual settings help a lot. It really brings out the true green of the plants.


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## Ach1Ll3sH33L (Mar 1, 2012)

Looks good frrok, amazing what a month or two or growth can do!


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

Very lovely set up, shame you had to tear it down, but look forward to seeing your next one! Your last photo is very nice, you've probably posted this info, but what camera do you use?


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

AquaAurora said:


> Very lovely set up, shame you had to tear it down, but look forward to seeing your next one! Your last photo is very nice, you've probably posted this info, but what camera do you use?


thanks...its a Canon G11. thats what I used for the final photo. all the others are just from my iPhone 5. I'm still not that good at photos but for my first photoshoot it came out ok. I will do a better one on the next scape. I just didn't have time to everything right. my trip came up really quick.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

This Scape placed 1339 out of 2320 in the IAPLC ! not bad for my first entry... need to work on my skills more... and make sure to have fish in my scape next time, lol.


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## Dantrasy (Sep 9, 2013)

frrok said:


> This Scape placed 1339 out of 2320 in the IAPLC ! not bad for my first entry... need to work on my skills more... and make sure to have fish in my scape next time, lol.


Congratulations! Very respectable result, with some wriggle room to do better next year. 

Are you going for AGA 2014?


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

Dantrasy said:


> Congratulations! Very respectable result, with some wriggle room to do better next year.
> 
> Are you going for AGA 2014?



Yes. Same scape. I have another layout going right now but it won't be ready in time.


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## Dantrasy (Sep 9, 2013)

frrok said:


> Yes. Same scape. I have another layout going right now but it won't be ready in time.



Me too. I thinking we'll be in the same category, nanos. Good luck.


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