# DIY stand for a multi-tank setup (56k)



## lochaber (Jan 23, 2012)

p.lewis said:


> One thing I notice with folks' DIY stands is that they overbuild them. Just peek inside the commercial stands and realize that you need a lot less structure than you think. My design depends on the strength of the plywood and 1x4s. Although a stand built with 4x4s and other big members will be more rigid, it would be heavier and cost more for materials. This wooden structure only weighs 30 lbs or so. I can stand on it, so it is plenty strong and rigid.
> 
> I have zero access to the inside of this stand from the front or side, but the back is open. I'm going to have to think hard about how I expect to service any of the equipment inside if I place it against the wall...



I'm guilty of drastically over-building stands myself. That said, I'm a little concerned that most of your stand doesn't have direct vertical support - It looks like the back of the top tank has direct wood-on-top-of-wood support all the way from the tank to the floor, but from your pics it doesn't look like the front of the top tank, or any of the lower tank enjoy this. As it's presented in the pics, it looks like a lot of the weight of the tanks is going to be supported solely by the shear strength of the screws, and that's not something I'd be comfortable supporting possibly dozens of gallons of potential water damage on.

As to access to the inside, once you provide suitable supporting, you could use something like a sabre saw to cut panels out of the plywood twixt the supports, and then reattach them as doors.


----------



## accordztech (Dec 6, 2004)

I am not an expert on building stands either. But from the looks of it I have to agree that it needs some more vertical support. At least a vertical support on the upper front edge of the tank. At the moment only the rear is supported. 

I am a little cautious of the tanks held on soley by screws (assuming its the right type of screw), but I am now a fan of wood glue. The bottom tank can use some support as well. Especially because the main wait isnt on the side plywood, its just inside of them that isnt that strong. 

Perhaps if some of your upper support braces that connect to the vertical support brraces were interconnected it would help with strength.


----------



## OldMike (Sep 7, 2009)

I agree. Cosmetically it looks great but you need more supports. I would frame out the base and add verticals to both tank platforms BOLTED on. Screws only worries me. Just my .02.


----------



## mach_six (Sep 12, 2005)

If I were to build my stand, I'd over build it for piece of mind. 

But I think people are way under estimating the vertical strength of plywood and for such a small weight, it shouldn't have a problem that people think it does.


----------



## scapegoat (Jun 3, 2010)

that's... going to end in failure


----------



## Sugardaddy1979 (Jan 16, 2012)

Definitely add more vertical support. Then you can buy oak veneer and cover it your self. That top tank will weigh close to 200 lbs. Maybe more. Not worth the risk IMHO.


----------



## p.lewis (Sep 22, 2010)

lochaber said:


> It looks like the back of the top tank has direct wood-on-top-of-wood support all the way from the tank to the floor, but from your pics it doesn't look like the front of the top tank, or any of the lower tank enjoy this. As it's presented in the pics, it looks like a lot of the weight of the tanks is going to be supported solely by the shear strength of the screws, and that's not something I'd be comfortable supporting possibly dozens of gallons of potential water damage on.


Yea! I know what you guys mean!

That extra element was in my sketch, but I bought one 1x4 too few at the HD. Just for kicks, I did sit on top. I weigh about the same as a 20L full of water and gravel. It did survive, but that's just a short-term test. 

Actually, right now I'm debating putting this additional jack stud (if I can use framing terminology) perpendicular to the plane of the plywood to get more stiffness against the thing racking. To do that, I'd want to use a Kreg joint system, but I loaned mine out and won't get it back for a couple months. Actually, there were a lot of parts on this cabinet I would have loved to use my Kreg kit on. I am not paid for advertising Kreg.:red_mouth



lochaber said:


> As to access to the inside, once you provide suitable supporting, you could use something like a sabre saw to cut panels out of the plywood twixt the supports, and then reattach them as doors.


Good idea. It's pretty narrow (12.5" and 25", top section and bottom respectively), and working from a small hole will be challenging.

Another idea I'm having is removing the front plywood sheet and building it onto a deep drawer that slides out from underneath the 29. I'd put my sump container and all the equipment in this drawer. All the cords and tubes would need plenty of slack and flexibility to move in and out. This would be tricky.

Ultimately, I think I'm going to put this cabinet perpendicular to a wall and keep access to the back. Maybe I'll use my plywood scraps to put some doors on it.

The reason I was sharing this build was because I thought it was something new, and a demonstration that you could put something together without master woodworking tools. I can't pay good money for furniture any more. The materials and construction quality are no better than this stuff I throw together in my garage. And you can too!


----------



## Indychus (Feb 21, 2013)

That stand is fine... most pet shop stands are 3/8 particle board. You didn't mention what grade the plywood is, but it doesn't really matter since even the lowest grades of plywood are more than sufficient to support those tanks. I would only be concerned with buckling of the tall sides, and the 1" x 4"s take care of that issue.

Here's some specifications on typical laminated woods, it's a bit technical but has everything necessary to do your own calculations if wanted.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr190/chapter_12.pdf


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I would put 1/4 or even 1/8 plywood across the back to stiffen the stand from racking - rocking side to side. And, I would, for sure, use yellow wood glue at every joint. Then I think it should work fine.


----------



## p.lewis (Sep 22, 2010)

Indychus said:


> That stand is fine... most pet shop stands are 3/8 particle board.


When I built my first cabinet (a lot nicer than this one), I surveyed all the cabinets the LFSs had, and quickly came to the realization that it doesn't take much structure to make a stand that is strong enough. In fact, I saw many stands that used plywood for the entire structure. That made me scratch my head a while until I had to admit that it ought to work as well as dimensional lumber. Of course it does! Just look at all your furniture from Ikea!

Why I think people end up building stronger stands is because they want rigidity. I think the human mind perceives rigidity as strength, when in fact, flexible structures can be as strong or stronger. Maybe this goes back to the development of our monkey brains to test if tree branches can hold our weight. The difference is that rigid things are typically 10-100 times stronger than what is required to prevent structural failure. Rigidity >> Strength.

Also, Indychus, I can definitely use that reference on composites. It looks like a good read for a technical guy like me.

I'm a Mechanical Engineer. I could talk about the merits of overbuilding a cabinet to make it more rigid compared to how little material you need to make it strong enough for the load, but it would take a while to write something that would be useful to a general audience.

I won't argue with anybody who wants me to beef up this stand. There's nothing wrong with that perspective. However, I plan on moving one or two more times and don't want to make this thing too heavy.


----------



## Indychus (Feb 21, 2013)

Nice, I'm an ME also, although no real-world experience yet. Just finished my BS in ME and am working on my Masters in Aerospace. Seems like there are a lot of engineers on here


----------



## lochaber (Jan 23, 2012)

Sounds like it should work. 

As to the sump on a drawer bit, I don't think the cords/hoses should be much of a problem. Might help if you use some sort of clip or something to hold them to the frame where they enter/exit the sump/aquarium, so that way all the flex/slack stays out of the tank/sump, and just hangs out in the inside of the stand.

I really like the kreg pockethole jig. I borrowed one from the local tool-lending library a couple times, and then went and bought my own. pretty easy to use, and really useful for some otherwise difficult joints.


----------



## accordztech (Dec 6, 2004)

Indychus said:


> That stand is fine... most pet shop stands are 3/8 particle board. You didn't mention what grade the plywood is, but it doesn't really matter since even the lowest grades of plywood are more than sufficient to support those tanks. I would only be concerned with buckling of the tall sides, and the 1" x 4"s take care of that issue.
> 
> Here's some specifications on typical laminated woods, it's a bit technical but has everything necessary to do your own calculations if wanted.
> 
> http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr190/chapter_12.pdf


While you are right, if you look his tank sits on the inner portion of the plywood. So its not supported by the sides, its supported by the inner support and the screws. All the cheaply LFS ones are supported right in the sides and they can get away with it.


----------



## scapegoat (Jun 3, 2010)

accordztech said:


> While you are right, if you look his tank sits on the inner portion of the plywood. So its not supported by the sides, its supported by the inner support and the screws. All the cheaply LFS ones are supported right in the sides and they can get away with it.


this precisely. there is no wood support in the front of that 20, only screws.

Now, I'm sure the combined shear strength of the 12 screws is enough to support 200lbs. but I wouldnt trust them. 

you'd have a lot more support for this stand if the tank was placed on the end of the plywood. there is nothing wrong with the materials used, you're just not using the most efficient parts for the most important parts. 

and you want rigidity; you could support a tank with 4 2x2's at each corner, but good luck not having it come crashing down. tanks aren't soft squishy things that can handle impact or flexing, like a monkey.


----------



## Sluggo (Nov 6, 2010)

I am not an engineer, but even if the screws under the top tank held, I would be worried about the plywood wanting to bow outward at the front corners. I do like the concept, though.


----------



## GraphicGr8s (Apr 4, 2011)

One other thing. Your plywood is cut wrong. The grain should run top to bottom not front to back. And it's not just cosmetic. Although plywood has multiple plys it is stronger in one direction. That direction happens to be with the grain, just like solid wood. As has been said: Glue is your best friend.

BTW if you had used 3/4" plywood and proper joinery the 1 x 4s would not have been need for anything except trim and you wouldn't have needed a single screw.

You're putting a 29 in front. And a sump inside. How will you access the sump?


----------



## In.a.Box (Dec 8, 2011)

Y not just go with 2x4 all the way?


----------



## lochaber (Jan 23, 2012)

GraphicGr8s said:


> One other thing. Your plywood is cut wrong. The grain should run top to bottom not front to back. And it's not just cosmetic. Although plywood has multiple plys it is stronger in one direction. That direction happens to be with the grain, just like solid wood. As has been said: Glue is your best friend.
> 
> BTW if you had used 3/4" plywood and proper joinery the 1 x 4s would not have been need for anything except trim and you wouldn't have needed a single screw.
> 
> You're putting a 29 in front. And a sump inside. How will you access the sump?



If there is a complete frame of the 1x4s on the inside, the plywood will effectively just be cosmetic, with some reinforcement against racking. But, yeah, you can do a stand with just plywood, and have a quite strong one at that. I don't have the precision to cut stuff that accurately my self, but for those who do, they can build a simpler stand with fewer materials, and have it come out quite strong and nice looking.


----------



## GraphicGr8s (Apr 4, 2011)

lochaber said:


> If there is a complete frame of the 1x4s on the inside, the plywood will effectively just be cosmetic, with some reinforcement against racking. But, yeah, you can do a stand with just plywood, and have a quite strong one at that. I don't have the precision to cut stuff that accurately my self, but for those who do, they can build a simpler stand with fewer materials, and have it come out quite strong and nice looking.


Believe me I know. Sometimes you just don't have the money for 3/4" oak but with 1x4s and 1/4 you can make a great stand.

Your materials with a 1x4 skeleton behind 1/2" ply is really more not less material.

And I do remember before my skills were where they are now building skeleton cabinets. In fact last year I took apart a solid wood cabinet I built 27 years ago. (solid wood not skeleton) I couldn't believe the sloppiness of the joints and the poor design. Now I build high end stuff as a hobby. If I were to take it apart in another 27 years I know the joints will be right. I won't look back and get that letdown feeling. Every time I visit my mother's house and look at the cabinet I built under the sink I about want to cry. It is terrible. But I built it with wood I had at the skill level I was at. Man I hate that sink cabinet.

The main thing I see with his plywood really is the grain direction.


----------



## p.lewis (Sep 22, 2010)

lochaber said:


> If there is a complete frame of the 1x4s on the inside, the plywood will effectively just be cosmetic, with some reinforcement against racking.


Yup, I'm not worried about the plywood because it is only acting as a shear panel. It's equivalent to diagonal bracing, which mostly only adds strength against racking. I loved solid mechanics and structures in college; took some additional classes for my MS too. (hint... I know what I'm doing, so don't worry, folks)

Not shown in the original pics are the last couple jack studs that vertically support the frames under the tanks. Also, I'm gusseting (plywood triangles in the corners) the back of the stand for strength against racking in that plane. This is the only weakness that is preventing me from setting it up and getting some water flowing.

I don't have access to the tools to do better jointery right now. I just wanted to make something that was good enough and to show how most folks can get by with a few simple tools. Well... how to make something a little nicer looking than the utilitarian concrete block and framing lumber stand. (I'm not hating)


----------



## GraphicGr8s (Apr 4, 2011)

p.lewis said:


> (hint... I know what I'm doing, so don't worry, folks)


Now I am worried.

:hihi::hihi::hihi::hihi::hihi::hihi:


Only thing that bothered me was the grain direction in all honesty. But I won't see it from my house.


----------



## p.lewis (Sep 22, 2010)

GraphicGr8s said:


> One other thing. Your plywood is cut wrong. The grain should run top to bottom not front to back. And it's not just cosmetic. Although plywood has multiple plys it is stronger in one direction. That direction happens to be with the grain, just like solid wood.


You're right about the strength of plywood depending on the orientation. In industrial plywood, each ply is about the same thickness. If and only if there are an odd number of plys, the outside face plys define the strongest orientation, which is usually in the sheet's long dimension. I'm in 100% agreement with you on this.

Then I go look at my 1/2" *veneer *plywood and notice two things. First, the veneer thickness is ~1/32" to 1/64" thick (Google agrees) and the three plys inside are ~1/6" thick each. Second, the grain of the outermost inside plys is perpendicular to the veneer grain. It is likely that these plys contribute more to the composite strength than the veneer. In that case, the strong direction is likely to be perpendicular to the orientation of the veneer. If so, this is dumb luck on my part because I payed zero attention to grain.

This is neat stuff. Unfortunately, the text Indychus linked earlier doesn't get into the plys or the distinction between industrial plywood and hardwood veneer. I'm sure somebody has written something. I'm not sure anybody else on this forum cares about learning more.

However, for conventional furniture making, you're right that my veneer grain is in the wrong direction. Yes, it is unattractive. Call me silly, but I don't care. This is not my nice stand, just my cabin fever project. My grandchildren are definitely not inheriting it. This is proof of concept for me. I hope this attitude doesn't offend you too much.

I need to get some water in this baby and turn everybody's attention away from my shoddy carpentry. :icon_wink Maybe I should take pictures of the first cabinet I built to convince you I'm not a hack. haha!


----------



## GraphicGr8s (Apr 4, 2011)

p.lewis said:


> You're right about the strength of plywood depending on the orientation. In industrial plywood, each ply is about the same thickness. If and only if there are an odd number of plys, the outside face plys define the strongest orientation, which is usually in the sheet's long dimension. I'm in 100% agreement with you on this.
> 
> Then I go look at my 1/2" *veneer *plywood and notice two things. First, the veneer thickness is ~1/32" to 1/64" thick (Google agrees) and the three plys inside are ~1/6" thick each. Second, the grain of the outermost inside plys is perpendicular to the veneer grain. It is likely that these plys contribute more to the composite strength than the veneer. In that case, the strong direction is likely to be perpendicular to the orientation of the veneer. If so, this is dumb luck on my part because I payed zero attention to grain.
> 
> ...


Brother it doesn't offend me one bit. It just goes against the natural forces of nature and the earth and could cause a catastrophic collapse of something or other and it will be entirely your fault. Just didn't want that on your conscience. 
In my "epic" project which is almost, finally over I have a cabinet that's 54" wide. Plywood is 48" Grain has to, absolutely must, run top to bottom. It hurt to have that much waste but I hopefully will find another project to use it up. There are some things that I am OCD about. Doing it right is one of them


----------



## scapegoat (Jun 3, 2010)

GraphicGr8s said:


> Brother it doesn't offend me one bit. It just goes against the natural forces of nature and the earth and could cause a catastrophic collapse of something or other and it will be entirely your fault. Just didn't want that on your conscience.


:hihi:


----------



## GraphicGr8s (Apr 4, 2011)

p.lewis said:


> I loved solid mechanics and structures in college; took some additional classes for my MS too.


I remember way back taking a strength and materials class which I guess was the predecessor to your solid mechanics course. That was a great class. Got to destroy a bunch of things all in the name of science.


----------



## p.lewis (Sep 22, 2010)

I updated the original post with a fresh picture showing all the vertical members and diagonal bracing I added in the top back corners for some vastly improved racking strength.


----------



## p.lewis (Sep 22, 2010)

Here's what I've been up to the past couple months with this multi-tank stand (MTS... haha). 










Up top is a 20L grow-out tank of sorts for an Anubias coffeefolia and a couple Java Fern rhizomes I had left over. What we got here is inert substrate, 60W equivalent LED in a shop lamp light, HOB... a quick-and-dirty tank setup to get momentum built back up on this project. Right now it has 11 neon tetras, but it previously held my 6 Torquoise Rainbowfish for quarantine. This tank won't stay in this setup for much longer.

Check out the little Java Fern plantlets growing on the roots off of this rhizome... this is the only one I've seen this happen with.










You'll notice that I have Peace Lilies sprouting out of the tops of both these tanks. That's an experiment I started about a month ago with the suction cup planters I got from Riparium Supply. So far so good. There's new leaf growth and I see the roots growing/working their way through the media. These plants represent 1/2 of the plants I thinned out of a Peace Lilly pot I bought for $8.99 or something from one of the big home improvement stores. I plan to supplement with more planters made with similar-looking clear acrylic suction shower things I found at Meijer in the bathroom section. They're big and are shaped like a fat slice of pie to fit into the corner. I'll have to get some more plant species to try out with this. (I should document this and share if I remember.)










My intention is to have more riparium plants in the top tank to add to the height. I'm going for the most use of the vertical space.

On the bottom we have another 20L with dirt and a Flourite Black gravel cap (kinda silly, but I had the Flourite already). Sponge filter, 50W heater, and two 60W equivalent LED bulbs in some reconfigured spotlight fixtures. I'm not happy with how the bulbs stick out of the fixtures... I don't think I used the appropriate bulb size.

The dirt on the bottom is Miracle Grow Organic Choice Garden Soil (never again... too much wood) with a little less than a pound of Amaco Mexican Red Clay broken into little balls and mixed in somewhat. Tannins leaching were way higher than I expected... needed 2x 50% water changes each week or more to keep up with tannins for the first ~6 weeks and I have reduced to weekly changes. Using RO water at 6 degrees of hardness with Equilibrium, and weekly doses of 2mL Seachem Flourish for micro-nutrients. 

I planted relatively heavily in the beginning. I got most of my plants for the bottom tank from Dustin at Aquatic Jungles out of appreciation for his prolific YouTube videos; they include an unidentified Sword, Jungle Vals, Dwarf Sag., Anubias (barteri?), rotala, and some Water Sprite or something that didn't make it. The Jungle Vals are all rotting off at the substrate level and floating away, and I don't know why. I added from my LFS a bunch of crypts that completely melted and are sheepishly growing back, plus a clump of Myriophyllum mattogrossense that melted but is regrowing from the tips of the stems. These last two plant species look like hell, but I'm going to give them their time.

My plants from Aquatic Jungles arrived just before I went on a week vacation back in August. So, I let them float in the top tank because the bottom one didn't even have water in it. While they were floating around up there with the Turquoise Rainbows, the 'bows must have gotten frisky and scattered an egg or two that I must have transferred to the bottom tank. About two weeks ago I found a tiny fry wiggling around while I was removing plant debris and wood bits during a water change. He must be chowing down on all the wee beasties in the newly-dirted tank.










My next steps are to move that top tank somewhere else, move the bottom tank up top, and rebuild one of my 29 gallon tanks to sit down in the bottom spot (notice the gap between the tanks that ought to reduce with the taller 29 tank). I got a submersible sump pump and built some overflow plumbing to tie the tanks together with a hidden 10 gallon tank behind the stand as a sump. The overflow system worked great in my tests, but I'm not ready to tie the tanks together quite yet. I'll put off showing the plumbing for another post.


----------

