# help with my ugly tank!



## Fahnell (Jan 20, 2011)

you have a Ramirezi right?
I will go for a Heiko Bleher style
Lots of bogwood, some slim twisted one up to the surface, catapa leaves on the bottom (lots of them)

Look at that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V555uY4pmLs

or that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOVu6S2ex6w&feature=related


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## seadreamer (May 6, 2007)

I like your wall. Is there any way you could just leave the blue gravel under the wall area while replacing the rest with another color then just layering over the blue? It's hard to tell from the photo if that's possible or not. 

Off the top of my head mosses, anubias, or java fern will grow on your slate.


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

Fahnell: yes, she is a ramirezi, but I'm not really looking for a blackwater style tank. I appreciate your reply though. Those tanks are very cool, just not really my thing.

Seadreamer: You know, as soon as I read your post I said DUH! Yeah, I certainly can leave just a little bit under the wall. In fact, do you by chance know of any aquarium safe clay I could put under there? If not, it's really no big deal, I can certainly leave the ugly blue gravel, and just cover it with something else. And thanks for the wall comment, I like it too. Even if it was/is a pain.

I was thinking of sticking a few pieces of fissidens fontanus in a few spots on the wall (not sure if you can tell, it's full of holes) and I'll look into anubias. I kind of wonder what would look good sitting in front of the wall. The only reason I built it, was because I don't like seeing all the wires and everything from the filter and heater behind my aquarium, nor am I a fan of the fake poster things that people put up as backgrounds.


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## decoman (Nov 2, 2010)

i had a tank like that then went all natrual buy things (starting with the rocks) and buy all brown or tan with a lot of plants


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## Wolfgang (Jan 23, 2011)

For substrate I recommend eco-complete. The bamboo will have a shorter life span if it is completely underwater. Since this is the low tech forum, I assume that you do not have very strong lights. In this case, you might want to try moss, java fern, or anubius. Attach them on driftwood. Have a lot of fun with the tank!!!!!


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## drlower (Dec 14, 2010)

love the slate wall, great job. i would remove as much of the blue gravel as possible and i like flourish substrate available in brown, red, or black.agree with woldgang on the fern and moss. they are not buried and can be tucked into the spaces in the slate. one of the hardest things to create in a scape is height and depth. you already have a leg up because of the options with the slate wall. bamboo is not a true aquatic plant and will not live long submerged. one of the biggest things you need to watch for is many of the plants sold at the chains and even lfs are not true aquatic plants and will live for only a couple months submerged, best of luck.


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

I've been looking at anubias, and it does look like a great plant for this aquarium. I'm thinking about making a carpet of fissidens fontanus, and putting some anubias on one of the shelves that are sticking out of the wall. But I think something growing on the very top of the wall that could sort of drift down into the tank would look very good. So what kind of plant would have a drifting vine effect, which can tolerate very high light? (the top of the wall is about 3 inches from the hood light)
I'm tossing around the idea of putting in some driftwood, or instead some longer somewhat pointy rocks, sticking up out of the substrate, almost like a "cliffs of doom" out of the princess bride movie. As far as the driftwood goes, I could only use very small pieces, maybe get some manzanita branches, because the wall sits about 2 inches away from the back of the tank (for the HOB filter and heater to have room) plus it's another 2 inches thick, I only have about 8 inches from the front of the wall to the glass.
I assume it won't hurt my fish to replace the substrate then? Since nobody has commented on it... Also, are anubias and ferns my only options here? I think I need something a little taller to help tie everything together...


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

What light do you have over the tank? Light level is crucial to plant selection.

IMO you'll probably have better luck with the Fissidens on the wall rather than down as a carpet. It can collect lots of debris, and since you can't have any shrimp to help keep it clean (your Ram would eat them), I'd put it up on the wall where it's a little less likely to collect. Debris = algae, and mosses are especially prone to algae since they're relatively slow-growing.

I'd get some driftwood and attach the Anubias onto that. It would add a bit more depth to the aquascape, too.

Yes, you can switch out the substrate without harming the fish- as long as you're careful to do it in a way that minimizes disturbance to the tank's cycle. Do a thorough gravel vacuuming just before breaking down the tank, and collect as much mulm (debris) as possible. Pour off most of the excess water, and then lay the mulm down underneath the new substrate. The mulm is full of N-bacteria so can really help to get the new substrate cycled and minimize ammonia and nitrite spikes.

Reseve about 50% of the tank's water to put back in the tank, to help reduce the risk of water parameter shifts.

Also, be sure not to clean your filter for a few weeks before and after the substrate swap.


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

Lauralee: I have a singe 15 watt bulb, and it's a 10 gallon tank. The slate wall probably takes up about 2 gallons worth of water, and most light doesn't reach behind the wall. Mainly just to the very top, and the front of the tank.
Do you think mineralized topsoil would do well in this tank? Oh, and Laura, I'm pretty sure I've read my way through all of your tank builds at one point or another (I've been a lurker for a while) And I have to say, great job on all your tanks, and I'm totally jealous of your amazonian fishing trip!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

LOL you've done alot of reading! :hihi: But thanks!

Yes, I think mineralized soil would work well. Cap it with whatever you want.

You might like Pennywort (Hydocoytle leucocephala) for the "vine" you're talking about?

Marselia minuta would make a nice carpet.

Rotala rotundifolia would be a good stem, planted directly under the light.


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

So here's what I'm thinking, I already have some topsoil that I just need to dry out and screen a few times so that I have everything needed for substrate. I'll just get some kind of smooth white sand for the topping. Then, 

Carpet: Marselia minuta (thanks Laura! this stuff looks great, where can I get it?)

long stem going from bottom to top on left side: Echinodorus 'vesuvius' 

Mosses for cracks, and top of slate wall (which sits about an inch under the surface of the water, and 4 inches from the light): Taxiphyllum alternans or maybe HC for topping

a plant tied to a slate shelf on the right: Anubias barteri 'Nana' 

But I'm thinking about some sort of centerpiece... should I just leav the slate as the centerpiece, and have it basically "framed" by plants? I was thinking something kind of bushy, and hopefully colorful, like a red or purple plant, right in the center in the front. What do y'all think?

P.S. hopefully in another month I'll have my DSLR, and be able to get a decent shot of the tank!


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## AquaStudent (Jan 4, 2011)

Your slate wall is awesome! great job with it. I really think that should be your main focus on the tank. You could also consider a small piece of driftwood. I could see this tank with mosses and java fern on the slate wall with some sort of larger stemed plant (like an anubais) on the left side and a small piece of driftwood with some mosses/java fern on it on the right side. The rest of the plants would go in like you were thinking framing up the slate wall.

I wouldn't consider this the ugliest tank at all. It's got a lot of potential and you seem to have the knowledge to get it done.


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

Thank you so much for your comment on my slate wall, Aquastudent! I like the backgrounds you did on your 10 gallon as well. And, even though I copied and pasted the latin names of the plants that I saw on here and said "ooh... pretty..." doesn't mean that I have the knowledge to get it done, but thanks for your faith!! 
I think I'll start playing with the dirt either tomorrow night, or friday night (no life, I know) and I'll start getting things together for the substrate. Once I have that all done, I'll get to the fun part, and order some plants.
Next time I'm at a pet store, I'll look at the driftwood... I'm just having a hard time picturing how it would look. Also, I really wish I could show you guys how this thing looks in person. There are a few shelves in the wall as well, so it's not just a flat wall. I'm also thinking that I will try to eliminate all the duckweed that's in there as well... it's definitely the plant you learn to hate!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Check here in the swap and shop for Marselia minuta, that's just about the only place I ever see it since for some reason the online stores only seem to carry the other species?


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## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

lauraleellbp said:


> Check here in the swap and shop for Marselia minuta, that's just about the only place I ever see it since for some reason the online stores only seem to carry the other species?


Aquariumplants.com used to carry it, but like you, all I see is the Marselia Hirsta (sp?) or the quadrifolia


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## SgtPeppersLHC (Dec 9, 2010)

Good luck with the duckweed.
From what I've read so far I hope to never get it piggybacked in my tanks.
Grows back from the smallest bit of it when you think you got it all.


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

I actually like the duckweed... kinda... It's a small pain, but I think it looks good when there are just a few leaves floating around. I do weekly water changes, and just take out a couple of handfulls. and after about three days, the stuff explodes! And a few days after that, comes another water change. It's only a little more maintenance, and since I'm new to planted tanks, I still like it... sort of... lol. Only trouble is, once I plant some carpet, in an already low light tank, I just don't think anything will survive with the duckweed blocking the little light that I do have. BTW, love the name! First time I heard the song was when I was watching yellow submarine. Great music video!


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

Alright, so I did a water change yesterday, and picked up a couple things for the mineralized topsoil. I couldn't find muriate of potash anywhere, but I discovered that all it is, is potassium chloride. Which is used in some types of ice melt, some types of water softeners, and is the main ingredient in NOSALT (a salt substitute) So I picked up some nosalt, as it was the only potassium chloride I could find. I also got some cork (more on that later) and some HC from my LFS. 

I also had a hard time finding "pottery clay" I had some clay at my house, but it's grey, not red. And since you need the clay for iron, which I assume is the reason the clay is red in the first place, the clay I have probably won't work. So I did a little brainstorming, and vuala!! I have steel wool! So I grabbed some steel wool, put it in a tupperware container, filled it with tap water, and by the time the water evaporates, the wool should pretty much be in powder form. It's been two days, and there is alot of iron oxide in the bottom of the tupperware. Also, just to make sure that there will be iron in the tank for a long time, I wadded up little balls of steel wool, and encapsulated them in clay. The clay isn't waterproof, so the steel wool should oxidize inside the little balls, and slowly leach the iron into the dirt. I'm guessing they will last for years this way, as long as the clay doesn't break down too quickly.

With the cork, I made a small planter on the very top of my slate wall (pics to come) And I made a very tiny amount of mineralized topsoil. I found out from an old post by Tom Barr that you can mineralize topsoil by boiling it for about 10 minutes. Fortunately I have a loving wife who didn't mind me boiling dirt in her pots.:icon_bigg So I boiled my dirt, mixed in a little nosalt, and some of the steel wool water, and poured it into the planter on the wall. It was probably only about 4 or 5 tablespoons. Then I planted the HC in it. So the HC is sitting about 3 inches away from the 15 watt light, under 3/4 of an inch of water. I think this should be plenty of light for it.

The reason for the cork is because I've seen people grow HC emmersed in ripariums where cork was used as a planter. The HC will attach to the cork pretty firmly, so... hopefully the HC will grow out of the planter, and attach itself to the cork, covering the entire top of the wall with a nice, green, lush, carpet.

I'll post some pics of the planter, and steel wool clay balls later. Hopefully tonight, if I don't get too busy.


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## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

Lucky bamboo will die if submerged. take it out...


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## defiesexistence (Sep 13, 2010)

I've heard lucky bamboo will survive if it is emergent and has leaves above the surface. I'd still grow it taller and pot it as a houseplant though.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

moonshinetheslacker said:


> Alright, so I did a water change yesterday, and picked up a couple things for the mineralized topsoil. I couldn't find muriate of potash anywhere, but I discovered that all it is, is potassium chloride. Which is used in some types of ice melt, some types of water softeners, and is the main ingredient in NOSALT (a salt substitute) So I picked up some nosalt, as it was the only potassium chloride I could find. I also got some cork (more on that later) and some HC from my LFS.
> 
> I also had a hard time finding "pottery clay" I had some clay at my house, but it's grey, not red. And since you need the clay for iron, which I assume is the reason the clay is red in the first place, the clay I have probably won't work. So I did a little brainstorming, and vuala!! I have steel wool! So I grabbed some steel wool, put it in a tupperware container, filled it with tap water, and by the time the water evaporates, the wool should pretty much be in powder form. It's been two days, and there is alot of iron oxide in the bottom of the tupperware. Also, just to make sure that there will be iron in the tank for a long time, I wadded up little balls of steel wool, and encapsulated them in clay. The clay isn't waterproof, so the steel wool should oxidize inside the little balls, and slowly leach the iron into the dirt. I'm guessing they will last for years this way, as long as the clay doesn't break down too quickly.
> 
> ...


That's what I call some nifty DIY thinking! Please keep us updated on how all your substitutions seem to work out for you?


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

With regard to the lucky bamboo; I've had the lucky bamboo in there for over six months now, and it has done perfectly fine. A little algae growth on it, but that's about it. I do know that supposedly lucky bamboo will die if it is totally submerged. Right now I do have it potted as a regular houseplant on the window sill. Once the mineralized topsoil goes in, the bamboo will also go back in. I would assume that if you take the lucky bamboo out every few months, and plant it for a week or two, it would probably live just fine in the aquarium. The reason this stuff dies when it's totally submerged is because it gets water logged and rots. So, as long as it gets to dry out every few months, I figure it will be fine. Also, it only cost me 3 bucks. So if it dies, I'm not too terribly concerned about it.

Laura, I will certainly keep you posted on how the mineralized topsoil does. I'm a little worried about all the substitutions that I'm using, but then again, if nobody ever took a chance, we probably would have never invented the wheel. So if everything thrives, and nothing dies, then most people will think it's quite a bit easier then previously suspected to do this.

I figure most people don't want to use MTS, or can't for various reasons. Like, not having a yard to dry soil in. Or don't have the time to keep wetting and drying for several weeks, or just can't seem to find the proper clay, or dolomite, or potash. So I would imagine a few more people will do this, as long as everything works out well... and I'm certainly hoping it does!

Does anyone know if I can use tums instead of dolomite? Their main ingredient is calcium carbonate, just like dolomite, but it doesn't have the magnesium that dolomite does. The only thing that looks like it might actually hurt the plants in tums would be the Sodium Polyphosphate... what effect would have have on the plants or fish? I have some tums laying around, along with some magnesium supplements. I'm guessing that they would work..? Help?:icon_conf


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'd probably use some crushed coral or cichlid substrate if dolomite isn't an option.


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

I stopped by petsmart today, as I had a little bit of time on my hands (very rare) and saw some stuff in the reptile section called "calcium sand" made of calcium carbonate. Anyone know about this stuff? I called the manufacturer to ask them a question, and the guy read to me exactly what was on the back of the bag, and said that's all the info he had.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I remember hearing some bad stuff about using that stuff in reptile tanks... Can't remember exactly what the issue was and if it would transfer to an aquarium, though?


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## seadreamer (May 6, 2007)

moonshinetheslacker said:


> Seadreamer: You know, as soon as I read your post I said DUH! Yeah, I certainly can leave just a little bit under the wall. In fact, do you by chance know of any aquarium safe clay I could put under there? If not, it's really no big deal, I can certainly leave the ugly blue gravel, and just cover it with something else.


Sorry. I forgot I responded here. :icon_redf Looks like you've moved on but, no, I don't know about aquarium-safe clay. It may exist. I'm no expert. 

You might consider crypts for some low-light plantings. Lots to choose from.

As for growing moss near the surface, I've done it and had no problem. I think it was java moss. I had it tied to a piece of wood and hung from the top of the tank. It made a moss overhang, which was my intent. Anyway, it was about 2 inches from my lights (had a glass top) and thrived.


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

Here's a couple pics of the planter I did on the top of the wall





































Also, some pics of the substrate science experiment that's taking over my kitchen counter, lol!



















There's the steel wool, the encapsulated steel wool, the small amount of substrate I made for the HC, and a pot of boiling dirt. I threw the duckweed in there because DEATH TO DUCKWEED! hehe... I figured boiling it for 15 minutes would make me feel better. And it did. :icon_twis

Oh, and Seadreamer, I just wish there were a book entitled "Crypts, sizes, and needs" It would make things a bit easier, that's for sure!


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## Budget aquarist (Feb 1, 2011)

first, if you have such low light wattage, i recommend taking out the duckweed, then, i would get driftwood, eco-complete black gravel, and a few low light plants. ( anubias, java moss, java fern, bacopa, and spiranulis crypt)


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

Well, the tank is full of mud today! Once the water clears (tomorrow, or the next day probably) I'll plant the crypt parva I just picked up, along with the crypt spiralis going up along the left side, and the anubias is jammed between the stone wall, and the glass, on the right side. I'm still trying to find some marselia minuta, but if nothing else, I'm wondering if I might be able to make a carpet out of the parva?

Quick update on the clay and steel wool: Don't bother. The clay melts within about 24 hours. But, I suppose the steel wool will just rust away under the substrate anyway.


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## GoodwillTKE (Dec 30, 2010)

lauraleellbp said:


> I remember hearing some bad stuff about using that stuff in reptile tanks... Can't remember exactly what the issue was and if it would transfer to an aquarium, though?


My wife has had a variety of reptiles. From what I gather talking to her, the main issue with the calcium sand is that the critters can swallow bits of it while feeding, which can potentially become impacted in their intestines causing nastiness. 

I know that may not clarify things in this scenario as far as water quality goes, but thought I would just throw that out there.


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

Thanks for the input, Goodwill. I tried calling the manufacturer about the stuff, and they read to me word for word what was written on the back of the bag. When I told the guy that, he sounded pretty embarrassed. Nonetheless, what you say both makes sense, and does clarify things a little bit. If the only problem with a critter eating this stuff, is that it might impact their digestive tract, then it obviously doesn't have any chemicals in it that are too terrible to life, otherwise the reptiles would die of some sort of poisoning.

Update thus far: it's been about 36 hours since the new substrate went in. Since there was still about 4 inches of water in the tank (couldn't drain all of it, because the khuli loaches under the wall would die) I didn't put the NoSalt and calcium carbonate layered on the bottom, as per recommendations. I just mixed a couple table spoons of each, with the dirt, after I took it off the stove. I also poured in the nasty rust water from the steel wool, as the mud was boiling. I'm sure the substrate now has plenty high iron content! Well, I planted one crypt spiralis, two crypt parvas, some sort of grass that I picked up from petco about 6 months ago (sort of a long story about that stuff) the anubias, and a single strand of my unknown grass from the chesapeake.

Ammonia spike.
Nitrite spike.

I did a 30% water change, threw in an ammonia neutralizing alka seltzer tablet thing, along with some extra bacteria culture I had from when I cycled the tank. I also put some metafix (tea trea oil) and solazyme (alo vera extract) in, just in an attempt to keep the fish a little healthier. Once the water is all cleared up, I'll take another pic.


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

72 hours. Been doing daily water changes. Ammonia is way down, nitrite is at zero. All fish are still alive and active. Just as the dirt settled down, I put in the white sand topping, so the tank is all cloudy with sand particulates now. Hopefully I'll get some pics up by sunday.


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

Ammonia zero, nitrite zero, and I personally think the tank looks a LOT better. Even if my photography skills suck more than a hungry SAE!

Thanks to everyone for their advice. I really appreciate it. I hope my plants do well with the MTS and all the substitutions I made. I capped everything off with some white play sand. It washes out my ram quite a bit, but for the overall look of the tank, it brightens it up a bit against the grey slate background.

Once again, thanks y'all!


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

Not really intending to bring this thread back from the dead, but I wanted to do a little bit of whining... My german blue ram, Moe, was dead when I got home today. Somehow she swam sideways and jammed herself between two of the pieces of slate in my stone wall... Not really sure how she did it... certainly don't know why! I guess she got spooked about something during the day. We do have some minor construction going on. Also, she had gotten a little aggressive about owning the entire front half of the tank, and maybe she was chasing one of the other fish away? Don't know... But she was certainly my favorite fish. 

Also, thought I'd say thanks to everyone who helped with this thread again. I REALLY can't wait to get my SLR back from my parents so I can take a picture of the tank that doesn't suck. The pics truly do NOT give it justice. Even if I am missing my centerpiece ram now...


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## AquaStudent (Jan 4, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear about your Ram. They were a very pretty fish. There's nothing worse than coming home to a casualty.


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## warhead_71 (Mar 7, 2011)

Marselea Minuta doesn't grow very thick or very fast in low-light... might grow algae on it. I think HC would do much better.


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## digitallinh (Jun 22, 2011)

The tank definitely looks a lot better with the natural look. I am not sure if its the photographs or the plants, but what could you do to get your plants to brighten their greens? or are those plants simply that color? Really need that green to sparkle to give the slate some constrast I think!


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

The plants aren't very green, but the picture makes it look a lot worse than it is. The crypt on the left melted, btw, and now the ram is dead, but I 'think' I can make the plants green up a bit more with more light. Which is one of my many projects that I need to do. Nonetheless, since the ram is gone, I think I'm going to try a bunch of fire red cherry shrimp. That should give it some really good contrast, I think.


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