# What is causing this? Brown leaf edges. Low on something (but what?)



## Plant_andersen (Oct 25, 2019)

Hi everyone, long time forum reader, first time member and poster. I have been running a low tech setup for quite some time but recently made some major changes and am seeing my Amazon sword, Java fern and Anubias all start to go brown. Here are my details:

11 hours of light (increased from 9.5 a month ago after yellow leaves, added iron rich root tabs and saw good growth after this)

48” LED (joyhill from Amazon, 38W, 1120 lumen, 7250 k) 

Spotlight LED (15W: 800 lumen approx?)

90 gal deep tank (probably quite low par at bottom, however java fern that is brownest is near top, possibly too much light? (Opinions?)

Fish load is low, feed twice a day. 

Water always 0ppm ammonia 0 ppm nitrite 5ppm nitrate (too low from surface pothos?)(opinions?)

1 large Amazon sword (brown on edges)
1 small Amazon sword brown and a few holes
1 java fern, new leaves are small and have chlorosis at tips, some new growth but old leaves very brown and crisped looking
3 anubias, growing slowly but now have browning too

New plants,

Jungle Val at back
Floating hornwort
Floating frogbit 
Floating dwarf water lettuce (brown and melted)
1 hygrophilia
1 bottom right unsure of species (help to ID?)
Surface pothos

Dosing:
Recently weened off a Seachem excel due to melting and unsure if it was doing anything
1 capful of Seachem Fluorish twice weekly,
15% water change weekly
Fluorish root tab and API root tab under the Fluorish black substrate 

Due to my higher plant load I know I am running low on nutrients somehow as I know Fluorish isn’t enough on its own. I do my research but my evacuation and methodology is sometimes inconsistent to my over caring and “treat and react too quickly” mentality. I am looking to slow down my plant adding now and call this my complete setup, and add just what these plants need however I do not know what to add in addition to Fluorish for nutrients now. Any advice is greatly appreciated


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Is that a typo or do you have 5ppm nitrite? Cause there really shouldn't be any nitrite in an established tank...

Anyway you are low on macros. Flourish does not have much in the way of macros. Your root tabs will have macros in them but that is only helpful if 1) they are still there and 2) your plants have found them. If you have root tabs generally under the substrate and its been more then say 4 months since you put them there, then they are gone. Root tabs are fine as supplemental fertilizer but they really can't carry the load by themselves especially once something like a sword gets big.

Anyway you should rethink the ferts. A popular choice around these parts is Thrive, for your tank sine you are not injecting co2(??) is ThriveC since it contains a source for carbon. It comes in a pump bottle and you pump some in once to twice a week.

The fact that your water lettuce died is further support for this, it likely couldn't get the nutrients it needed.


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## Plant_andersen (Oct 25, 2019)

Thanks for the reply! I was looking at ThriveC so thanks for he suggestion, I am wondering though if the liquid carbon in it will melt the jungle Val? I had some jungle Val melted in the past and wondered if it was from the Excel I was dosing and didn’t see major changes to other plants so I weened it back off. But I just read jungle Val is a nutrient hog so maybe it was starved too and I didn’t realize? 

And yeah maybe it’s the way I wrote my water but 0-0-5. 5 is my nitrate, wondering it’s too low and if the pothos is robbing the other plants? The thriveC probably has what I’m missing in the comprehensive fluorish but I’m just hoping to do this next step right and avoid any algae blooms as I finally just got rid of my new tank brown algae that coated everything for weeks

And no not injecting c02. Surface agitation is a slight ripple from fx6 output. Stopped using an air stone a few weeks ago as well


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Any phosphate readings? 

Fluorish has almost no NPK so phosphate and potassium probably low. I’d recommend you go to something like thrive and dose at 1/3-1/2 recommend rate, it’s more a complete fert with about 10x the NPK as Fluorish. Seachem is actually a 4 bottle system so you’d need to buy their separate N, P, K bottles. Thrive is also more concentrated and cheaper, it’s also currently on sale.

Thrive 500ml | Premium Liquid Fertilizer | NilocG Aquatics

I couldn’t get pic to open to bigger pic but think plant bottom right might be willow leaf hygrophila.


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## Plant_andersen (Oct 25, 2019)

DaveKS said:


> Any phosphate readings?
> 
> Fluorish has almost no NPK so phosphate and potassium probably low. I’d recommend you go to something like thrive and dose at 1/3-1/2 recommend rate, it’s more a complete fert with about 10x the NPK as Fluorish. Seachem is actually a 4 bottle system so you’d need to buy their separate N, P, K bottles. Thrive is also more concentrated and cheaper, it’s also currently on sale.
> 
> ...


Ok yeah Thrive it is. Just trying to decide between Thrive and ThriveC. I was worried about liquid carbon melting the jungle al but their site says this “ It also contains a non-glut based source of bio-available carbon which provides 2-3x the amount of other carbon supplements.” Do we know if jungle Val can tolerate the non glut form?

Also, no phosphate readings no. I have been using a master test kit with ammonia nitrite and nitrate. Any suggestions for a test kit for the planted aquarium?


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

I've never heard of anyone having jungle val melt from liquid carbon... There is a first time for everything but there are a lot of folks out there with val and thrive in their tanks.

I have val nana in my spec v and while its currently not doing great I think that's more from all the sag I have in with it. I am dosing thriveC twice a week. It certainly has not melted.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

minorhero said:


> I've never heard of anyone having jungle val melt from liquid carbon... There is a first time for everything but there are a lot of folks out there with val and thrive in their tanks.
> 
> I have val nana in my spec v and while its currently not doing great I think that's more from all the sag I have in with it. I am dosing thriveC twice a week. It certainly has not melted.



Actually what I read is Vals are one of the few sensitive to glut plants.
some report one can acclimate them to glut by using low dose increments..


not a plant I have experience with but trust my err "research".... 





> Many people experience the same as you. Most Val die if in contact with gluteraldehyde.


https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/33-plants/1113634-excel-melting-vals-deficiency.html
YMMV...


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## Plant_andersen (Oct 25, 2019)

minorhero said:


> I've never heard of anyone having jungle val melt from liquid carbon... There is a first time for everything but there are a lot of folks out there with val and thrive in their tanks.
> 
> I have val nana in my spec v and while its currently not doing great I think that's more from all the sag I have in with it. I am dosing thriveC twice a week. It certainly has not melted.


Ok going to get some and give it a try. Will post the results. What are your thoughts on Seachem advance? I am wondering if the phytohormones will give my tank a boost or if it’s just a gimmick. 

Thanks

Bump:


jeffkrol said:


> Actually what I read is Vals are one of the few sensitive to glut plants.
> some report one can acclimate them to glut by using low dose increments..
> 
> 
> ...




Research in this hobby has officially become listening to everyone’s experience and then trying to find a common denomantor and then relating it to my experience and setup. I have gone back and foreth on over maintenance and under maintenance tactics with short term results. Looking for consistency now


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Plant_andersen said:


> Ok going to get some and give it a try. Will post the results. What are your thoughts on Seachem advance? I am wondering if the phytohormones will give my tank a boost or if it’s just a gimmick.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Research in this hobby has officially become listening to everyone’s experience and then trying to find a common denomantor and then relating it to my experience and setup. I have gone back and foreth on over maintenance and under maintenance tactics with short term results. Looking for consistency now



I blame the root tabs.. 


> They are very different in composition. API root tabs have a higher macronutrient content, but with no micronutrients besides iron. Flourish has a much bigger range of nutrients with both macro and micro, but the macro (which plants need more of) is a lot lower.



How many and when are you using them?

My current "hypothesis" is root tabs are lucky to last a week...
I have no proof of this though...


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

jeffkrol said:


> Actually what I read is Vals are one of the few sensitive to glut plants.
> some report one can acclimate them to glut by using low dose increments..
> 
> 
> ...


Huh, learn something new every day.

I have had Val Nana in my spec v for around 6 or 7 months. When first introduced it took off and did great. Then the advancing tide of sag caught up to it and it stopped doing much of anything. During that entire time though I was dosing excel daily. That said... its the nana and not jungle val. And you know n of 1.


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## MtAnimals (May 17, 2015)

jeffkrol said:


> I blame the root tabs..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


DIY root tabs,or the ones that cost a buck each?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

MtAnimals said:


> DIY root tabs,or the ones that cost a buck each?



Granted, mainly the DIY ones but find it hard to believe in a 100% aqueous environment any will last well.
There is an Osmocoat (not available in the US) that uses a specific "shell" around the nutrients and does seem to prolong release.
https://www.scottsaustralia.com.au/...-trace-elements-water-gardens-aquatic-plants/
Even those would be sort of questionable..


> *How it works*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just can't see any pellet/tab type or DIY gel caps lasting months..


Like I said, I just, personally, need more proof.
not that it works.. just works as advertised.
not they don't work, after all they are fertilizer..


Biggest issue would be too many leaching too fast.



In an active substrate (high CEC) it makes little difference since the nutrients will bind to it..EXCEPT if too much (toxicity)
W/ a passive substrate like Flourite/sand.. it will just enter the water column..



> Here are the instructions for the Flourish Tabs:
> Insert one Flourish Tab™ in the gravel for every 10–15 cm (4–6 in.) radius. A standard 10 gallon aquarium requires 6 tabs. Distribute the tablets evenly throughout the gravel bed. Push each tablet midway into the gravel bed. *Add new tablets once every one* to three months for optimal plant growth. Tabs will not alter pH, but, in very soft or unbuffered water, they have slightly acidic properties similar to peat moss.


Besides my weeks really isn't THAT far off... 

SIDE note.. Never got a decent answer from Scotts why it (fancy water Osmocote) is sold in AU and NZ but not NA...


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Plant_andersen said:


> Ok yeah Thrive it is. Just trying to decide between Thrive and ThriveC. I was worried about liquid carbon melting the jungle al but their site says this “ It also contains a non-glut based source of bio-available carbon which provides 2-3x the amount of other carbon supplements.” Do we know if jungle Val can tolerate the non glut form?
> 
> Also, no phosphate readings no. I have been using a master test kit with ammonia nitrite and nitrate. Any suggestions for a test kit for the planted aquarium?


Well if you want to get serious about this get both the api phosphate (even though I like salifert better) and api GH/KH tests. 

After initial cycling the ammonia and nitrite aren’t really of much use in a established tank except if you have some mysterious fish death etc. phosphate test is actually better gauge of wether your fish feeding/poop is keeping up with NPK demands of tank. KH and GH are numbers all planted tank keepers should test, PH, GH and KH are all numbers you should run your change/tap water after it has set in a bucket for 24hrs.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

jeffkrol said:


> I blame the root tabs..
> 
> 
> 
> ...





jeffkrol said:


> Actually what I read is Vals are one of the few sensitive to glut plants.
> some report one can acclimate them to glut by using low dose increments..
> https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/33-plants/1113634-excel-melting-vals-deficiency.html
> YMMV...


Yep, that's been my experience. My vals are acclimated to the standard glut dose and grow like crazy.

That said, I've noticed that when I trim them they do melt more--perhaps the cut edges are more sensitive to glut? That didn't happen when I wasn't dosing glut. 



jeffkrol said:


> Biggest issue would be too many leaching too fast.
> 
> In an active substrate (high CEC) it makes little difference since the nutrients will bind to it..EXCEPT if too much (toxicity)
> W/ a passive substrate like Flourite/sand.. it will just enter the water column..


I make DIY root tabs with half OsmocotePlus & half SafeTsorb--on the theory that the STS will absorb any free nutrients and release them slowly to the plant roots. (Substrate is also STS) Never notice any nitrates leaching into the water column, and the plants really start taking off in a couple of weeks after putting them in.


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