# clado or thread algae?



## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

well.. here it goes.. 





































so i'm not sure what it is.. from other photos, it looks only like thread algae. some say too much iron. guess i'll have to cut back. i'm going to cut back to maybe 0.5ml of iron instead of 2.0ml. also going to cut back on lighting from 7 hours to 6. i'm about to head to the tank and remove with a toothbrush. seems like the more i pull, the more that grows. :icon_frow

any ideas, suggestions, please?


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## frozenbarb (Dec 16, 2006)

thread, claudo doesnt looks llike that, IN the lake im fishing in has so much claudo its unbelieveable. all those people throwing bed in the water


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

yea.. i was hoping that's what it was. any advice?


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

bumping for some advice from those who are experienced. i know you see this.


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## ToYoTa (Jan 30, 2007)

looks like dirty water causes this. I have had that myself. I just do major water changes 75% then 40% weekly because my Bioload is well establised, and turn some black mollies loose and they are happy. I dont even have to add food. thats what it is fish food.


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## ToYoTa (Jan 30, 2007)

It looks from the pic your using aquasoil substrate? Huh?


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

ToYoTa said:


> It looks from the pic your using aquasoil substrate? Huh?


yep. sure am.


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## ToYoTa (Jan 30, 2007)

" i'm going to cut back to maybe 0.5ml of iron instead of 2.0ml. also going to cut back on lighting from 7 hours to 6." 

If you cut back on ferts I would not cut back on the lights. Unless there in high watts per gallon. You should run 2watts per gallon for 8-12 hours a day. 10 hours is probley going to be magic * might be better for your plants. just let them work for you and grow and you determine what you like. I reccomend 10hrs at 2watts per for now. You dont need to add any ferts at all in aquasoil on these plants (Pictured). They will growout real nice for you. Do 60% water changes once a week for two weeks then 20% every week to two weeks. This is to help balance your water parameters. I also assume you have fish in there only?


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

check out my journal. specs are in there.


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## ToYoTa (Jan 30, 2007)

Hair Algae

Very common on plants and rocks. Can be many different colors but is usually green or greyish. They are long thin strands sometimes growing 3-4 inches long. Normally due to overdosing of liquid fertilizers, especially ones high in iron and phosphates. 

Getting rid of it
Just reduce the amount and frequency or completely erradicate adding any fertilizers to stop it from growing or add more potassium so the plants will use the phosphates quicker. It is easy to pull off so you can just pull it off until you get rid of it.


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

it's completely smothering the HC. i've lost nearly 85% of what i have. it's terrible.


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

i can't seem to shake this thing. it's only getting worse. i've cut back the light and nutrients. i've tried removing as much as possible. the co2 is cranked up as much as i can without killing my fish and i'm dosing 15ml of excel every day. what am i doing wrong here????!!!!!


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## pittiepride (Feb 13, 2007)

If you are using CO2, you should not need excel but will need macros and micros. Maybe I'm missing something but I did not read about your fert regime.

kara


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Have You checked Your N, P NH4/3 and N02 Levels? If You haven't then You may want to check them to help us figure out what's going on, and it needs to be done before a WC, of course. Amount of light? Dosing schedule?

If its clado--the reference at Rex's site says Low N and Low C02. Excel doesn't seem to phase it much, IME. May want to try H202 at 1ml/gal. every other day.

If You have the test kits check everything You can.....

HTH


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## Galactic Doug (Apr 14, 2006)

You might have a look at this link http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aquainfo/algae_peroxide.html, and give it a try. I did on a 29 gallon tank a short time back to see if it works and it did just fine. No harm to fishes including a Black Ghost knife (doesn't like most meds or anything like it), and some shrimps and snails. 

Also the tank had a vareity of plants in it including some java moss, java fern, various crypts, Echinodorus sp, and bushy plants like ambulia, and cabomba. No plants were injured with a dosing of 3 TBL per 30 gallons every 12 hours for two days( 3% solution commonly available). Then a complete 80% water change.

Good Luck!
Doug


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

here are the params:
pH @ 6.4
kh @ 9 degrees
PO4 @ 1ppm
N @ 5ppm

remember, this is all low since i have not dosed.

to alter dosing, i have now decided to dose:
1/8tsp KNO3 x 3
1/16tsp K x 3
1/8tsp PO4 x 3

3ml fluorish x 3
1ml iron x 3

20ml excel x 6 (hopefully i'll go back down to just 10 or 15)

lighting was 96w for 6 hours with a 2x96 bust for 2 hours. but now, only 96w for 6 hours.


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## ToYoTa (Jan 30, 2007)

I would not add any iron. Untill your plants look like they are missing it. look at your plants what do they need. If they are not using phosphates then they need potassium. Add 1/2tsp potassium per 20gal works for me with 2watts light per gallon. just test the phosphate daily or every 2 days they shouldnt get lower than 2ppm. my range is between 2ppm - 5ppm on phosphate, why because my plants need it. As for excel I add 10ml in 55gal day of W/C them 10ml 3-4days later, then again at next W/C. feed your plants not your algae. give it nitrates to 10ppm-20ppm even 40ppm will be ok.without nitrate plants wont use the others. Hang in there and keep your params in range and Keep it simple.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Ok, I'm still a bit confused. Your journal is about 200 posts long and the specs change over time as You have changed things--so, its very time consuming and confusing to try to get current info from there.

With the new specs that You have listed--what change occurred when and when in reference to the algae showing up? That's a tough, time consuming question to answer, and a really tough one for us to try to guess and piece together.

I have reservations myself on whether or not its clado, but if it is clado and You haven't been dosing N03 (recently)--then You should be out of N03. *BUT* AS seems to add N03 to the system and that may explain the low (5ppm) level of N03. Another factor is the accuracy of the test kit itself. So, its really hard to say whether Your N03 is bottoming out or not.

Your pH is 6.4 and Kh is 9. Do You have any idea what that leaves Your C02 at? Do You have a Drop Checker? Ph monitor? Do You know what Your pH goes up to without C02? The C02 chart on Rex's site shows ~105ppm. Is there any fish, etc in the tank to indicate that this is wrong? Also, AS is not an inert substrate, so I believe the C02 chart is worthless.

If its thread algae then I would have to say its related to micros/Fe. There does seem to be some correlation there--generally,--and You do seem to be dosing a lot of Flourish and Fe. According to the Seachem chart they recommend 5ml 1-2x/wk on a 60gal. What You are dosing (9ml/wk Flourish + 0.21ppm FE) may have worked well in the past when Your light levels/duration were much higher, but I'm thinking that the Flourish level *plus* the extra Fe is just too much--that's MO. What I would do is cut the flourish in 1/2 and skip the extra Fe for now. Once You get this under control then You can try adding the extra Fe back and see how it goes. If You have a UV, You may want to run it to help precipitate out the Fe and get things moving in that direction. If not then a WC would be much cheaper.....:tongue: The luxury uptake of plants is very high on micros, so it may have taken a while for the excess to start building up and show itself via the algae.

With the past light levels and Your recent dosing(1/4tsp's)--I would guess that You need to add a bit more N03. The fertilator indicates that You are adding ~5.54ppm/dose and ~16.63ppm/wk. According to the fertilator: 1 1/4 tsp/*wk* will give You ~27ppm/wk.

The fert levels that You show indicate that Your tank is not "polluted"--with the possible exception of micro/Fe. If anything--Your levels may be running low. I don't think reducing things down to 1/8tsps is going to help at all. I think its just going to cause things to bottom out and generate more problems.

What I would do is this:

Pick a lighting scheme ( wpg, duration, burst) and stick with it--then adjust C02 and ferts to fit it--unless the lighting is just too high. 

2x 50% WCs to reset the tank. 

Manually clean out as much of the algae as possible, and start dosing the 3% H202 at 1ml/g every other day and see how things look after 3-4 doses. 

Dose P and K at the 3x 1/4tsp and slightly more N03 *for now*(to ~25ppm/wk). 

Eliminate the extra Fe and cut the micros in 1/2. 

Test N and P--1x/wk *or more* to get an idea of what's going on with those to see if there is a problem there, and to sort out what's going on with the K.

If You decide to follow this--please let us know what lighting scheme You decide to go with....roud: 

HTH


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

seems this is what everything is boiling down to. 
looks like there very well may be a short of N. i apologize for the confusing thread as i have changed my tank around NUMEROUS times in the event of algae outbreaks and frustration. some people know where i'm coming from.

i'm gonna take some time here and try to make things a bit more clear.
the previous set up (before the one i currently have) did its best with 20w for 6 hours with only a 116w burst for only 4 hours. so, 3hours(20w)-4hours(116w)-3hours(20w). so that's how the lighting cycle was. as far as dosing, it was 1/4tsp kno3, 1/8tsp K, 1/8tsp PO4. i can't recall what i dosed for traces, but i know that i certainly didn't use Fe. i was too scared.

so i guess then you ask, "why did it fail?" well, i ended up with a green dust algae. couldn't handle it, and started over.

as far as my co2, it has always been extremely high. so high that i get a film on the surface of my water. i've put in a drop checker several times to check it and it is always yellow. co2 is definately where it should be. on that note, i did have an issue with some BBA which i've been lead to believe it was due to poor circulation. to fix that, i changed from a fluval 305 to a xp3.  ha.

dosing, i'll do 1/4tsp kno3, 1/8 tsp k, 1/8 tsp po4. 3ml of trace 2x a week, or 3?

i'm going to do a large water change tonight, and change up the lighting cycle. i would like an opinion on this. let me try 4 hours @ 96w, 2 hours @ 192w, 4 hours @96w, for a total of 10 hours. i know that's a lot of light, but out of 7 species of plants in my tank, 5 are stems. they'll use a lot, and the co2 is up high.

i'm in need of your opinion.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Hi Patrick,

Keep in mind that *Change* is one of the main things that causes algae! Algae adapts faster then plants--so Change allows the algae to grab the temporary nich and run with it.

Personally, I *don't* think that the: 4 hours @ 96w, 2 hours @ 192w, 4 hours @96w, for a total of 10 hours is "too much", but the duration may or may not be too long. Just keep that in mind as things progress. The 96w is 2.54wpg and the burst is ~5wpg. It should average out to ~3wpg total--definitely workable.

Your C02 sounds like its in a Good place. Keep in mind that the vast majority of drop checker info available is based on a DC solution of Kh4. Most folks shoot for a Green solution, but yellow is better than blue--in MO. :tongue: 

AS adds NH4/3 to the system. That alone *can* reek havoc on a system. And from my understanding it adds N03 also. Testing is not fun for most, but You may want to test things for a while to get an actual gauge on Your system. Lately, I have been testing N, P, Ammonia, Nitrite, Gh, Kh, Ca, TDS and pH (The TDS and pH are done through monitors). I had a String algae issue and with some help over a APC, I managed to get things sorted out--but I needed to do the testing in order to figure out what was wrong and what I needed to do to fix it. For me it helps put a "Visual" on what's going on in the system.

I'm still confused on what You were dosing when the algae showed up. I think is was:

1/4tsp KN03 x3=16.63ppm--too low
1/8tsp KH2P04 x3=10.19ppm--too high
1/8tsp K2S04 x3=22.17ppm--maybe Ok, maybe too low

But I'm not sure on what You were dosing......

MO on Your current lighting scheme, plus Your Yellow DC is (Per *Week*):

1 1/4 tsp N03=27.71ppm
3/16tsp KH2P04=5.09ppm
3/8tsp K2S04=27.06ppm(--Total from KN03, P04 and K.)

That's Total per *Week*. Divide the dosing up as evenly as possible. This is why I went to liquid solutions a long time ago--I shoot for ppm, not TSPs. :tongue: 

You can tweak that later if You need to.....

Micros:

I am going to* Assume* that the luxury uptake for your plants on micros is basically full, so You probably don't need a lot right now. Again, that's an Assumption based upon this being thread algae. The EI dosage is based upon CSM+B, not Flourish. So, at the recommended 5-10ml/wk/60g--I would try 5mls/wk for now and see how it goes. Your plants may be loaded with micros and not need much for a while. If a micros problem arises down the road--Up the micros to 10ml/wk. *In Theory*, CSM+B, Flourish, etc contain enough Fe, so I would skip adding any extra for now. If You begin to see Fe deficiencies then either up the micros or start adding a bit of extra Fe. A little goes a Loooong way....roud: 

From sitting in this chair--that's what I would do if it was my tank. Just keep in mind that You have to be flexible. You have to be willing to make changes and run with the ball, but its better to sort out what changes need to be made and why--First. Then make them as smoothly as possible and as few as possible. And actually--that seems to be the hardest part of all of this....:tongue: 

HTH


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

well i'm going to take your advice on this one. i removed majority of it. i don't know if i have enough plants to uptake a full 27.71ppm of N, etc.. i have everything that i have in the most recent photo of my journal minus the HC. i lost it all due to the thread algae. personally, i have NEVER dosed as much as what you are suggesting i dose based upon that calculator. quite frankly, it's scaring me.  i'm thinking i'm going to take it a little slow as i just did a major hacking on everything tonight. can you maybe suggest something for just after a trim?


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Hi Patrick,

I am assuming that You do 50% WCs/wk. 

The 27ppm N is to make sure that You don't bottom out on the N, but nowhere near excessive enough to be considered as "pollution", plus the 50% WCs will keep it in check and testing will let You know what's going on over the long haul.

Same Story with the P. I feel out of the three that the 5ppm of P is a bit High, but not enough to cause problems and enough not to bottom out either.

The K is about right from my experience (~25ppm). So, if You start seeing a K deficiency then either add more K or test and reduce P and N.

My setups are 2-2.5wpg and these are fert quantities that I have used long term. There's no problems with those quantities. They are not excessive enough to be pollution and not minimal enough to worry about bottoming out. Give it some time, do some testing and tweak from there.....:thumbsup: You will probably end up having to tweak the N and P downward, and leave the K alone, and micros may need to come up. But this is a safe starting point. Give it 2-3 wks before You start trying to tweak things. Just test in the interim to see what's going on.

Don't worry about the recent trim....:thumbsup: 


Do the H202 dosing for 3-4 doses and see where You are at. If the H202 dosing that I suggested (less) doesn't seem to help--then look into the other routine suggested. I have used the one I suggested, it worked and it is considerably less then the other--Less just makes it a better risk against the potential negatives.

No Fear!


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

i'm going to go ahead and try some h202. peroxide right? and if i'm seeing your numbers right, you're saying 1ml/gallon every other day? so then i would do 38ml every other day? for how long?


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Hi Patrick,

From Your prior post:



danepatrick said:


> personally, i have NEVER dosed as much as what you are suggesting i dose based upon that calculator. quite frankly, it's scaring me.


You've had plenty of issues with the high light and algae. Honestly--You probably just haven't been dosing enough. One thing or another has been bottoming out and that's where the problem comes from. Higher light means You need to dose more. Don't sweat it, just give it a whirl......:thumbsup: 

Yes, 38ml per dose every other day for 3-4 doses. 6-8 days total time span. And just for the record, its 3% H202 (hydrogen peroxide) that is commonly available at the drug store, grocery store, walmart, etc.


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

well naja, i just wanted to give you a little bit of an update. i've been dosing as you prescribed and i can see a few changes. i definitely notice the plants pearling more. i've never seen them pearling this much. granted, i know pearling doesn't mean a thing, it was just something i noticed. i also notice that the greens are a lot greener and the reds are a lot redder. seems things are maybe healthier? after pulling out all the HC, i've noticed one little sprout popping out of the soil. i'm going to let it grow out a little and hope i can make it spread. i have noticed still some thread algae surviving. i've dosed the H2O2 twice now and haven't seen the algae being affected. although, it hasn't grown at the pace it was. would it turn a different color? also, should i do a water change monday? will that affect the H2O2 dosing? i probably should though..


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Hi Patrick,

Good to hear that things appear to be going well. MO is to do the WC and then dose the H202 afterwards. I really don't know if the H202 will work on that particular algae, so its somewhat of an experiment. At this point, just manually remove as much of the algae as possible, keep up with the H202, keep the ferts going in, and do some testing to sort out what's going on in the tank. This can be a large learning lesson for You if You just jump through all of the hoops for a while.

With the H202: If You need to dose today and do a WC tomorrow--then just dose today, do the WC tomorrow and re-dose. The H202 is just going to breakdown into H20 and 02.

The "Extra" Pearling is probably from all the extra 02 that the H202 is adding to the water....

Please post Your testing results for the rest of us.


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

does it hurt to add the H2O2 on a weekly basis? i can't seem to shake this Naja.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Hi Patrick,

Is it growing or is it just sitting idol?

H202 is an Oxidizer. It can harm Your livestock including Your Beneficial Bacteria. Just like Excel can be harmful--if misused. More is not necessarily better. The object isn't to find an "Algae Maintenance Program", but to eliminate it and keep it from coming back.

As stated before--I don't know if H202 will work on the algae that You have. So, I guess the real question is: Does it seem to be helping at all?


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