# New Tiger Shrimp Morph - White/Ghost Tiger Orange Eyes



## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Changed substrates in my Tangerine Tiger tank the other day. Today while replanting, I found a very interesting guy roaming around. His body is clear to a white color and his eyes are orange.

Grabbed the camera and started shooting. Then I found another one. Same exact size so I'm wondering if these guys are twins.

I'm going through the pics now to see if any turned out ok.

Stay tuned.....

Anyone else find this type of morph with the Tangerines?


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Could be stressed from changing substrate and now replanting.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Ok..here we go. These are the best shots I got at the moment. They aren't the greatest unfortunately. They never stop moving. 

This is a shot of the first guy I found:









And here are the two together:


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

GeToChKn said:


> Could be stressed from changing substrate and now replanting.


Definately not stress related. Only two out of hundreds in the tank.


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## longbeach (Nov 2, 2011)

Interesting, I have one also in with my TT's, it was part of a recent hatch. A friend of mine who bought some TT's from me also found one or 2 in his tank.

Mine have crossed with CRS and are producing Tibees and I thought it might come from the cross but maybe not.... just a colorless shrimp with yellow eyes, and a few small black marks on its sides similar but smaller than the average TT.


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## pinoyghost2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Cool looking shrimps, take em out and try to breed them :thumbsup:

I inadvertently crossed my CBS x TT and what I got is an orange striped/spotted shrimp. I have a lot of them now, as they breed fast....kinda cool looking too. Orange colored Tibee.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

It's just the eyes. There's something about that white/clear body with those glowing orange eyes. Really kewl and freaky at the same time.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

I'm wondering if you could have a true albino. A simple breeding between two "whites" may prove it, if they breed true... and it is a simple recessive.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Soothing Shrimp said:


> I'm wondering if you could have a true albino. A simple breeding between two "whites" may prove it, if they breed true... and it is a simple recessive.


But I'm curious as to the eye color if it were true albino. For many years people thought albino horses existed and now we know that's not true and it's simply a maximal expression of another pattern. Have their been any true albino shrimp documented? A quick google search isn't really getting me anywhere except pictures of goldens and clear RCS. :redface:


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

As far as I know, no true albinos have existed in the world of shrimp as of yet- but then again, no real research has been done on albinism in shrimp that I'm aware of.

Some speculation surrounds the color of eye and ocular albinism, but no one has done the data yet.

Technically this would be the anerythristic form of albinism (aka black albino) if this were the case- meaning all yellow and red pigment is not produced. You can see the ghost still has black.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

I would love to experiment with this further but with only two, may be a bit difficult. I think they are both males but still a bit early to tell yet.

These guys haven't been crossed with any other Caridinas so finding other test subjects may be tricky.

I sure will be willing to bring in other specimens if other people have any of them.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Nope. Not difficult at all. Just set up a small tank with the male phantoms and female TT's. 

They'll mate with each other and then remove the fems after the babies are born. The offspring will mate back to the males and each other and more ghosts will show up- if simple recessive.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Here's some better shots from just a few minutes ago:


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

Well I love them. I think they're neat as heck.....

Please do try breeding them out. 

I thought albinism was able to happen in any organism? Isn't it just a simple genetic mistake that eventually gets passed on?




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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

MABJ said:


> I thought albinism was able to happen in any organism? Isn't it just a simple genetic mistake that eventually gets passed on?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't know about everything else but having studied equine genetics for many years, it doesn't exist in horses. 

http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/white.html


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## Bluek24a4 (Mar 16, 2010)

Those are awesome.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

MABJ said:


> I thought albinism was able to happen in any organism? Isn't it just a simple genetic mistake that eventually gets passed on?


Yepper. The simple explanation is 1) where is the gene located and 2) is it a simple recessive. ANY organism including plants can have albinism. The trick is to know if it is expressed or not. Sometimes it is apparent. Sometimes it is harder to know and educated guesses can be made.


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

Yeah that's what I thought. 

I read it somewhere. I would love to create an albino shrimp.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

ETA: Let me clarify, there have never been documented cases of LIVING albino horses because the gene responsible is lethal to horses and most die in utero or within 48 hours of birth. So yes while it CAN happen, the majority of us will never see it. I would expect this would be true for more than just horses and that the animals are so weak they don't live long past birth.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Hmmm....the only tank I have that I can use is my O. cocama tank that has Caridina propinqua in it. Might be my only option. I can probably let it ride for now and get another 10g setup but not fancy to the idea of a new tank setup for this.


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## Bananariot (Feb 28, 2012)

ravensgate said:


> Seriously not trying to derail but I can tell you without a doubt there has never been a documented true albino horse. Again, not just a casual 'reader' of equine genetics.


From what I hear it's not that they don't exist. It's that they die and albinism in horses have been linked to gastrointestinal issues as well as other fatal problems.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Similar to albino bettas then. The albino bettas popped up in 1927 and 1953 but were so weak they died before a breeding could be established. In 1994 a stronger albino finally popped up and got established into a strain.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Bananariot said:


> From what I hear it's not that they don't exist. It's that they die and albinism in horses have been linked to gastrointestinal issues as well as other fatal problems.



Yes I went back and edited my post. There has never been a LIVING albino horse documented because they die in utero or within 48 hours of birth. The W gene is thought to be lethal in horses. And as far as I know the foals that have lived to 48 hours have not been documented as albinos, only suspected.


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

Jamie, I know next to nothing about horses other than they're really neat lol. 

I'd just assume there's multiple ways for albinism to pop up? Maybe eventually there will be an albino horse. 

That wasn't my point. I just wanted to reaffirm my thought that everything in the world can have an albino trait. 

Which it was right. I'd be sad if albino shrimp died as eggs :/


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## hedge_fund (Jan 1, 2006)

I didn't read the above comments so maybe this has already been answered. The shrimp looks sick to me. Are the antennae the same exact length as the other normal looking shrimp?

http://www.shrimpnow.com/content.php/134-Shrimp-Diseases-Bacterial-Infection

I'm just taking a guess here....but look at the before last pic how the infection changed the color on the red tiger shrimp.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

hedge_fund said:


> I didn't read the above comments so maybe this has already been answered. The shrimp looks sick to me. Are the antennae the same exact length as the other normal looking shrimp?
> 
> http://www.shrimpnow.com/content.php/134-Shrimp-Diseases-Bacterial-Infection
> 
> I'm just taking a guess here....but look at the before last pic how the infection changed the color on the red tiger shrimp.



But the bacterial infection wouldn't affect the eye color would it? That last photo is an OEBT/red tiger cross which would explain the orange eyes.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

I think I'd agree with ravensgate on this. Plus for the color to vanish that much they'd have cloudy bodies by now.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

perfectly healthy shrimp and not crossed with any other caridinas.


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## Xforce (Aug 17, 2011)

Isn't that a blond orange eyed tiger shrimp ? 
looks the same shrimp you get can get once in a while with OEBT :icon_lol:


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## pinoyghost2 (Feb 13, 2012)

No its not a blonde OEBT...blondes are not white at all but a very pale blue that can't really be seen without some fancy lighting/camera skills.

That shrimp is WHITE no doubt about that! If its not a bacterial infection and I would move them to a separate area just in case, then I would do ask suggested and put one or two regular TT females in with these 2 white males and see what comes out of the next generation. What do you have to lose? If they die, then you know it was bacterial, if they reproduce and you get white again with orange eyes then you have something wonderful happening. roud:

Isn't that what this hobby is all about! After all that's what Micha Nadal is doing with his hybrid shrimps and the World is watching his creations....go for it.

If you don't want to try, sell them to me and I will do it. :icon_bigg


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Yepper.

Just to clearify:

P1 white ---> F1 No Whites but carry it in the genes ---> (F1 x F1) and (P1 x F1) ---> Some whites [if simple recessive]

The challenge is that shrimp tend to throw me off since they don't follow simple Mendelian genetics.


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## pinoyghost2 (Feb 13, 2012)

so just to show you what a hybrid tt x cbs cross looks like, here is a few of mine. You can see the black stripes from the Tiger gene and the white banding from the CBS/Bee gene. They also have spots on some too which comes from the TT. All are Orange in color!

I am wondering what you might get if you crossed a TT x Snowball shrimp? These TTs breed with anything.

Hey we could breed them to my hybrids and see what comes out :icon_cool


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Thanks for sharing those pics.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Ok....well I finally got around to doing this. Every day I keep seeing the Orange eyes and tell myself to seperate them. Always forgot to do it.

Today, I pulled one orange eye male and two very nice looking females. I didn't immediately find the other orange male and wasn't about to tear the tank up again. I'll move him later when/if I find him again.

I may do some more tanks moves as I'm not overly excited about the pH levels in the two tanks that they are in. The original tank and the one I'm experimenting with.

We'll see what happens......


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Good luck and PLEASE keep us posted! This is how we learn more about the hobby, by people sharing information.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

All three have survived the acclimation. One lady is saddled. Now we wait.....


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## rodcuda (Jul 25, 2012)

FYI on the albino horse topic. It is called lethal white and is common when breeding certain paint horses.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

That's what Ravensgate was telling me, too. Seems unless another albino mutation pops up in horses, that particular one is a bad one.


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

albino ferrets can be common as well i had a baby that was colored had the normal dark mask but had white ears and pink eyes. he was deaf. i contacted the breeder and found out in ferrets albino is linked to being deaf. so even though he only had a bit of white and the eyes it was enough to cause the problem. ...... any who back on subject, i cant wait to see what comes of this crossing and hope its something cool do keep us updated


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Almost tainted my little project here. I got to looking at the new tank where everybody is in just to make sure all is ok. Upon a closer glance, I found one of the females is actually male. Whew! I immediately removed him and put him back. I picked another female from the main TT tank (she's already berried so I know it's a gal  ) and have her ready to acclimate.

Mission continues.......


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## Merth (Sep 9, 2012)

Im new to this so may not know what I'm talking about but wouldnt it be better to put the new gal already berried in a breeder box til she has the pups :0 then put her in the iso tank?


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## Puddles (Jan 5, 2013)

Really cool shrimp. Hope the breeding process goes well.


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## CPD (Feb 7, 2012)

Very interesting. Will be following this closesly


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## pinoyghost2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I would have separated them just into a large marina breeder box until a: the new female gets berried, then take out the male and/or b: keep both females and the male in the same box, the first female will drop the babies and probably molt right away and get jumped by the male, so you will have her berried again in no time, then you could remove the male to the new tank setup, where the females can go after releasing their babies in the breeder box. The box will give you more opportunity to see the babies clearly and watch them grow up a bit....decide if this is your new strain or not.

You could just leave the male in the tank you've created for them, and give him another male to keep him company while these females have their babies.

Once you see if the babies are the same color/eyes then you can decide to put them all together in the one tank/or move them back (should they not have produced the white coloring/orange eyes) to the original tank.

With the already berried female you don't know if a regular TT male got her or the white one, so putting her in to have babies all over the tank will not give you the answer you need. 

She needs to be separated so you can see the babies. With the regular TT babies, I noticed the orange color almost from day one....if any of these babies are white and stay that way then you will know you have something to work with...if not put them back in the main tank to grow up.

Concentrate on keeping the white ones completely separated until you see new arrivals...otherwise once 2 sets of babies are in a tank you won't know who had what? 

I separate my hybrid females until I see the babies that way I can document the outcome of F1 and F2 etc.


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## Merth (Sep 9, 2012)

pinoyghost2 said:


> I would have separated them just into a large marina breeder box until a: the new female gets berried, then take out the male and/or b: keep both females and the male in the same box, the first female will drop the babies and probably molt right away and get jumped by the male, so you will have her berried again in no time, then you could remove the male to the new tank setup, where the females can go after releasing their babies in the breeder box. The box will give you more opportunity to see the babies clearly and watch them grow up a bit....decide if this is your new strain or not.
> 
> You could just leave the male in the tank you've created for them, and give him another male to keep him company while these females have their babies.
> 
> ...


+1 I was hoping I wasnt crazy


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Nobody said you weren't crazy, too. LOL


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## Merth (Sep 9, 2012)

Soothing Shrimp said:


> Nobody said you weren't crazy, too. LOL


HaHa true that I am catching the shrimp obsession after all!


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

That makes us ALL a little crazy.


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## pinoyghost2 (Feb 13, 2012)

join the club!!!


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

pinoyghost2 said:


> With the already berried female you don't know if a regular TT male got her or the white one, so putting her in to have babies all over the tank will not give you the answer you need.


Maybe I'm mistaken here but doesn't the female pass the eggs to the carriage right after mating? I didn't think there was an extended period of time where they stayed in the saddle after mating and then moved.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

james0816 said:


> Maybe I'm mistaken here but doesn't the female pass the eggs to the carriage right after mating? I didn't think there was an extended period of time where they stayed in the saddle after mating and then moved.


You are correct, female mates with many males and then recovers for a few hours before moving eggs down


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Also you should rename this, tangerine tiger has a misleading name. It's not a tiger shrimp at all, it's a separate species called serrata. Tiger shrimp (and all of their morphs) are cantonensis.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

mordalphus said:


> You are correct, female mates with many males and then recovers for a few hours before moving eggs down


Thanks for clarifying that. Had me thinking there fer a bit. And I love your description by the way..."then recovers for a few hours...." 



mordalphus said:


> Also you should rename this, tangerine tiger has a misleading name. It's not a tiger shrimp at all, it's a separate species called serrata. Tiger shrimp (and all of their morphs) are cantonensis.


This is something that has always sparked my curiosity as well in knowing that they aren't C. cantonensis then why are they called "Tigers"? I guess because of the similar Tiger features I guess. 

All reference I have ever seen is that of a TT. Is there another common name that they are associated with then?


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

I know Germans used to call them orange or red tuepfel, but I think they've abandoned that name in favor of tangerine tiger as well

But it is a new serrata morph


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## pinoyghost2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Yes that is the correct name for them and they are aggressive breeders, will breed with anything that moves  Maybe not neos, but all tigers and crs are fair game to these shrimps.

This is the same shrimp as Aura Blue which is also called Blue Tuepfel in Germany...this species comes in Red, Blue and now the Orange.


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

sorry to side track but what do the red ones look like? ive see the blues but never red


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

They look more brown than red to me, but a reddish amber I guess you could call it.


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## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

the 12th picture down is the red tuepfel shrimp. They are a color morph and sadly rather rare in the hobby and difficult to keep. Last year I was hell-bent to import them and found a German breeder who keeps them and he would have sold me a large batch. However, getting them into the country is difficult. Blue aura shrimp are the same species but a different color morph.


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

12th pic down from where?


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

LOL I was thinking the same thing.


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## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

haha ... ugh me dumb sometimes. let's try this one: http://onguru.de/hundkatzem/aquarium/garnelen/garnelen.html


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

wow i like those its a shame we cant get then and that they are so hard to keep.


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## Hobbes1911 (Mar 2, 2009)

yea the breeder i spoke to said the problem is two-fold: 1. the gene pool is small since no one is really keeping them. 2. they are rather inbred and thus are sensitive to any change. He assured me that at least 2/3 wouldn't make the transit and that's really not worth it.


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## pinoyghost2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I had both the blue and red and bred them here, however my experience with them is that they are very slow maturing shrimps (not like the TTs) and they tend to stay at the surface all the time. I found them always hanging in the floating plants rather than on the bottom.

If I fed any food that landed on the bottom they wouldn't bother with it, so I would have to keep using only food that would float around the surface area for them. Weird I know.

I would get both red and blue babies though and they were a very nice color. I sold off mine to another hobbyists.

I purchased them from an LFS in Canada that is owned by a German man who imports all his livestock from Germany and they were labeled as blue tigers, but they were in fact Blue Tuepfel or Aura Blue as they were later called in the US. I knew they weren't Tigers, I thought they were another blue shrimp called Indian Blue. Took me a while to get the info from Germany on them, and by that time I couldn't get any more.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

well....this little project looks to be dead. Just checked on the tank and get this....the males eyes turned normal. Back to black eyes! Dang it!

I didn't move anybody back to the main tank. I'm wondering if there may still be something here to explore???


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

james i would keep up with the project no tellin what might come from it. even if the eyes turned black its still a white shrimp so is still a possible color morph. i would run with it for a while and see what happens


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

I agree. I'd still try the white coloration.


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## Puddles (Jan 5, 2013)

Clear/white tigers with black eyes are still kind of cool, keep going!


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

PuddlesAqua said:


> Clear/white tigers with black eyes are still kind of cool, keep going!


But that would be just a regular Tiger then...just of a different species though. 

Ok...I'll leave them where they sit for now and just see what happens from here. Man....he looked soooooo kewl with them orange eyes too. Was on the verge of freakiness I thought.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

One thing I have l;earned working with morphs and mutations is that you may start with one thing and wind up with something else entirely that's really cool. Wait until you see future generations before making any "stopping" decisions. 

Do you have a recent pic of them with the black eyes?


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## trstarr69 (Jan 7, 2013)

All I can say is way cool.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Well this project has just taken another turn.....

checked on the wee ones just now and the males eyes have turned back to orange!! Now how wierd is that?

As an added bonus...one of the ladies is now berried!

Progessing right along......


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Interesting to see if the eye changes keep happening, or if somehow they were perhaps not lit with lighting when you saw them last.

In rats and hamsters, there is an eye color called ruby. Basically it looks black until a light is shined near them, then they look a dark red.

Here's a pic of an odd eyed rat so you can see the difference. (Not mine.) One eye is pink (right of picture), the other ruby (left of picture.). This was taken with flash to show the difference more clearly.









A pic of a black eyed rat with flash to show the difference better.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

That's freaky.

One thing I'm guessing was that the water change may have something to do with it. The next day after the WC is when I noticed the black eyes. It wasn't until yesterday when I saw they were back to orange. Kinda kewl.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Eye color differs on temp? That is weird.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

More intersting stuffs here.....

Checked the tank yesterday and all is well. First lady still holding her eggs. Second still berried.

Now here's where it gets interesting. This tank also houses C. propinqua a low order breeder. For the past several months, none of the ladies ever got berried for what ever reason. Now all of a sudden, I find (2) berried yesterday. Hmmmmm

Now I'm not saying that a potential cross happened between the C. serrata and the propinqua, but just odd that all of a sudden these gals are getting berried after such a long lull period. <scratches head>

I don't expect much from the Props anyway as they are pickers. I was trying to breed them at one point but everytime they get berried, they pick the eggs in a day or two. Very frustrating it was so I pretty much gave up on them for the moment.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Quick little update here.

Water change on Saturday and all is well. The males eyes didnt go black this time. The other lady is still saddled. Will be putting the prefilter on today.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Am really interested to see how this plays out! Cool that the red eyes are still showing.

I saw some pic recently of some caridinas that were born with red eyes and they turned black. Awesome that yours look as if to keep the red eyes.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Makes me wonder if these are Axanthic shrimp. A type of albino unable to produce yellows/reds.


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

i love this thread cant wait to see what happenes


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Things still looking good. One berried and one saddled female still. Male has been more visible of late as well. Looks like everyone has gotten used to their new home now. I finally got the pre-filter in place. We're just waiting now for a hatching.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Good to hear everyone is settling in.


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

thing to remember is you might not get any white ones from the first batches from the females it might be the f2's where white babies show up so please keep updating its so cool to see how new colors are started


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

so ur saying just leave everybody in the tank after hatching even if trait isnt passed?

this is me first selective breeding project


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

if none turn out white color i would leave them. but let some one else chime in cause i have not tried it with shrimp only breed guppies like that


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Personally after the fems deliver I would take them out and put them back in the main tank.

The fems won't have the white trait (because you didn't know who was the mom, right?), but the males will and the offspring will be at least het for it.

This lets breeding between themselves and back to the white parent happen. If it is a simple het (and since when has shrimping EVER been simple?), some white tigers should appear next generations. At that point, simply keep all the white tigers together for the next step(s).


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

thanks soothing thats what i was thinking and didnt get across lol i know what i ment just couldnt say it lol.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

I know. heh Easier to think of things sometimes than to put them into words.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

If the gene is recessive, both parents need it, in order for that to happen you have to breed your white male to a regular female, then cross those babies with the white father. After that if there's no white shrimp, it means it's not hereditary.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Yepper. You can cross the F1's with each other, too and you'll have 25% chance of the recessive white showing up.


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## gtu2004 (Feb 17, 2010)

A bit related:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2036615&highlight=#post2036615

and my thread:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=190388


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

ok...so after mum drops her eggs then remove her back to the main tank. Then as the babes grow up, let the male breed with the F1s correct?


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## metallicanick78 (Apr 26, 2011)

you got it. Since you have only males with the trait, you cant make anymore. Your colored females are just being used to create offspring with the trait that the original males can breed with. Like they all said, those F1 might not show the Phenotype of that trait (cant see it) But they should have the genotype (Genes) to pass on. Then when the original males breed with the F1s, some proportion of THOSE offspring (F2) should show the Phenotype. 

As an example, human eye color is really nice. Brown is dominantand Blue is recessive, just assume thats all the colors there are lol. Your white shrimp are like blue eyes(most likely) recessive and the normal color is dominant.

If mom has brown eyes B~B
And Dad has blue eyes b~b
When they have kids, they will be
(F1)
B~b
b~B And since B is dominant, it covers up b and All the F1s have brown eyes. But they have the b gene now. If we broke a few laws then their kids could have;
(F1)
Mom B~b
Dad b~B

(F2) would be
B~b
b~B
B~B
b~b which would look like 3/4 of the kids with brown eyes and 1/4 with blue.

Right now you have 2 dads with b~b, if one was a female it would save you a whole step. but your well on you way already.
I hope that all came out right, I will change it if I confused anyone...

Edit* You sure can just leave the white males with the F1s also, it will just make things move faster.


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

I thought Punnett squares didn't work on shrimp breeding..


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

LOL Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. This is what makes shrimping so frustrating to people like me (who would love to know "this" x "that" makes "those." :flick


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

Hmm interesting.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Take crs x cbs for example. Most times cbs is dominant. I wish other colors/shrimp followed that. LOL


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

All still doing well. Second female still saddled. I think we should be getting about close to a hatching.


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

i hope you get some white ones this is interesting lol


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Oooohhh Suspense builds!


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Mama is now hanging up top near the surface. I believe it's time.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

In all probability, they prob will look like mom in the first gen...but I can't help but hoping you'll get at least one white one!

Are the males black eyed right now?

It would be really interesting if the color white was sex linked.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

he's still white with orange eyes.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Cool. The clock is ticking then until hatching.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

The shrimp 'traits' that defy simple Mendelian genetics are likely 'complex traits' (traits that are influenced by multiple genes), correct?


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

That's my guess. Co-dominant, co-recessive, etc. Of course, then add in modifiers...


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

First berried lady has apparently hatched out her eggs but no sign of wee ones just yet.

Second lady is now berried.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Hope they're hard to find because they are clear


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

And the suspense continues.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

saw one babe today. it was hiding under a piece of driftwood. it came out long enough to say hi and then like a flash....gone again.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

the Phantom Tiger strikes again. Bwa-haahahahahahaaaa


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

soothing shrimp said:


> the phantom tiger strikes again. Bwa-haahahahahahaaaa


L O L. Couldn't help but laugh at that one.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Caught another very quick glimpse of a wee one but again, it darted back into hiding. I'm thinking with my lack of being able to only spot one or so, there may not be many in the tank. The second lady has a considerable amount more eggs than the first so we'll just have to take a wait and see approach.

Maybe the O. cocama's are having a midnight snack? Nah.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Still nothing new to report as yet. Haven't seen any wee ones from the first hatching. 

Second lady is still berried.

They look soooo small compared to the Tham's.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

"Still nothing new to report as yet."

I know what you mean. It's soooo funny I'm into selective breeding since I'm a VERY impatient person. LOL


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

It's almost like a kid at Christmas. You can see all your presents under the tree but....no touchy until Christmas day.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

LOL Apt analogy!


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Suspense is over......

Sry not the best of pics. Actually found (2) in there this morning. These guys are excellent hidders that's for sure.

So now the question is.....is there something here to work on or not?

I have to admit...these guys are just pretty awesome looking. Papa looks kewl now that he has even gotten bigger.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

I would say there is definitely something to work on. Are those 2 that you found whites?

My suggestion is to keep ALL these offspring together with the adult white, until gender is able to be determined on the offspring.

If white offspring are opposite gender of white adult, those are worth white gold to you. Those are ultimately the ones you want to keep together to breed to start your strain of whites.

Lots of things will be apparent down the line such as any problems in the strain, however as of now it is too early to tell and you have to do more breeding. 

CONGRATS!


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Kinda hard to tell actually. Some glipses you can see they are "white-ish" others look to be clear.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Well, regardless they should at least be het for the color trait you are looking for.

If you don't have the phenotype, then you want to start a colony to try to get the color expressed again. This involves mating with selected adult, and the het offspring back to each other.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

I was just trying to compare these guys with blonde OEBT's to see if they would be similar. These guys are definately better looking IMHO. Something about the stripping and the way it makes them look. I may keep it going after the next female hatches out and see what transpires.

If anything, there will be some nice looking clear/whiteish orange eye shrimpies around.


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## pinoyghost2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Keep in mind these are baby shrimps and may develop more white body color each time they molt until adulthood. 

My Bengals were a dirty brownish orange at birth ( I thought they were ugly) so I tossed all of them into the tank with the TTs (tangerine tiger I only had 5 of these) and as the babies grew up I noticed I had a lot of orange shrimps with spots/stripes that I KNEW werent' in that tank *before*....obviously they were the new morphs (20 of them) growing up

Now each generation is still Orange with black/white tiger stripes and spots. Don't discount these yet they may very well turn into swans!!! :thumbsup:


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

Looks like a wild type tiger like tt to me


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## pinoyghost2 (Feb 13, 2012)

They look a lot like wild tigers in F1, but in F2 they develop some cool features. I just noticed I have new babies in my Bengal tank...forgot one of my females was berried a few weeks ago, so these must be hers.

Keep working on this line, its too early to tell what might develope down the road. You might end up being the first to have an all white bodied orange eyed spotted/striped shrimp...OMG wouldn't that be something!


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Went down to turn off the light in the TT tank last night and I found another wee one with the big orange eyes. Recon I'll snatch him up and move him over to the other tank where the others are.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

The more of the same characteristic you want often decreases the time of setting your strain.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

You're saying to not move him over? I don't want to keep these guys in the same tank with the regular TTs to mix with that strain.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

I'm saying separate them into two colonies if you can. 

1) Your TT and your 
2) "white" colony genetics.

The more "white" genetics you have, the less time to set you strain. Clear as mud? heh


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## ohbaby714 (Feb 23, 2011)

Any update?

I'm curious cause i found some in my tank. Just put them both in breeder box this morning. Female is saddle but male still small, hopefully he can do the task


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Haven't spotted the babes in a couple of days now. Pops has really grown as well. I have left the two females in the tank still. I am debating about giving them one more go around since there were only (3) babes spotted originally.

Also, I haven't seen the other one in the main tank in a spell either. I'm getting ready to do a lot of plant trimming in there so we'll see.


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

i hope this works. i think they are so cool looking


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

I found papa and one of the wee ones yesterday. If I could get a pic to turn out, it would be awesome to show what the wee ones look like coming at you head on from out of the shadows. Them big bright orange eye...kinda creepy at times. 

I'll be tearing into the tank this evening for a massive snail removal so we'll see what I stir up.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

so i got to thinking as im tearing through this tank.....

what about the regular tt's that were born to the white/clear male? they will carry that trait with them right? i shouldnt place them in the main tt tank.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

one more quick question.....

i have papa and it looks like (5) wee ones. should i pull the regular females now or try see if they throw any more? ladies aren't berried at the moment


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Technically any f1s would be het for the white. They would carry the gene.

If the 5 wee ones are white, I personally would just work with all the white ones together. This is the ideal you want.

*If none are white* I would put the original TT moms back and just work with the offspring and Daddy white together.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

well this is fun. im tryin to seperate all the new f1's and finding several regular tt's in the process. i found one more very wee one with the trait.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Yay!


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

So I have removed all the regular TTs from the test tank except one. There is a micro wee one still in there that I need to catch. 

I did move the one white/clear guy from the main tank over to this one. 

Early indications looks like all the these guys may be male. Still a bit early to get a definitive answer but sure looking like it.

I am working on cleaning up this tank quite a bit. Removed about 98% of the snails and relocated the C. thams to another tank leaving the white/clears as the only shrimp now.


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## ohbaby714 (Feb 23, 2011)

Very nice. I do hate waiting also.
Like many, the wee one will have orange eye but do not always stay that way.
I hope the ratio is decent to work with and the trait stick 

On the side note, mine orange eye TT female was successfully barried with the male orange eye TT. She molted a couple of day ago and was berried the next day.
How long did it take for your to hatch? I figure about 3-4 weeks.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Closer to the 4 week mark.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

How many whites in all right now, James?


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

counting pops...I have (6).


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

You are almost assured to have a fem in the mix then. That's actually a very nice number to start your breeding program with! 

Many people have had the only option of starting with two and going from there, but if your's breed true from the start (we'll see), you are looking already at some nice diversity in your strain.

Because the whites appeared so easily in the F1, I'd say you have a good chance of these being recessives that may breed true! Can't wait to see the next generations!


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Well this has nearly come to a screeching halt. One water change can make a world of a difference.

Routine WCs on Friday on half the tanks. Check on Saturday, the Cocama/WTT tank is cloudy and I lost (4) of the tigers including papa.  WTH! It was the only tank that had issues which I find very odd. Immediately did another water change and the (4) remaining tigers seem ok .... for now.

Such an odd event. I'm not taking any chances. The jug that was used is out of here. That was the only thing different as all the jugs were filled up at the same time.

Hopefully...there will be a m/f match with the remaining little guys.


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## Clemsons2k (May 31, 2009)

Sorry to hear about your losses


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

James, I'm very sorry to hear about your tragedy. I think all of use who do special breeding of one type or another experience challenges at one time or another. 

Here's crossing fingers you can get your project going again!


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## Oceangirl (Feb 5, 2013)

I am sorry for your loss..


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Thanks guys....I still have (4) so we'll see. I keep a close eye on the main tank as well to see if any more have shown up there. Nothing of late.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

(3) more little ones found in the main tank. I have them acclimating over to the new tank as I type.


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## SouthernCichlids (Jan 20, 2013)

Awesome! Glad to hear that things are getting back on track


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

YAY! Good eyes, man!


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## $AN DIEGO N8 (Mar 7, 2013)

pretty darn kool


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

update?


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Any update yet?


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