# The kitty litter idea...



## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

I'm glad you're taking the plunge and trying this experiment! Kitty litter certainly has its disadvantages. If you like to re-arrange your plants often, you'll get frustrated with how cloudy the water will get every time you disturb the substrate. But I've get to see more impressive roots from ANY other substrate I've tried (Laterite, Flourite, Sand, regular gravel). Try getting some plants that can grow some really nice roots structures. The Anachris just doesn't do much else than grow upright and send out a few runners.

I've got some Hygrophilia Siamensis (Giant Hygro) with long, thick, trailing roots in my 15g tank that has 50% Special Kitty substrate. In my 55g tank with Flourite, the same plant gets just a small patch of threadlike roots that barely hold it down.


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## ridns (Aug 9, 2002)

I'm glad you rinsed it good! Like GCA said, you will get roots like you've never seen before. Plant your tank well, the more the better and don't be to afraid to add fish. The plants will use up most of the amonia thus little stress to the fish. The only thing is it helps to mix some gravel with that first layer(kitty litter) . If you don't, over time it will pack up and be hard to plant in. If you have a diatom filter, run it for a while right after planting to get the cloudiness cleared up....no more. Good luck and enjoy!
:bounce: :angel: :hehe:


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

I usually mix in equal parts 1:1 of play sand with Kitty Litter to help keep it from compacting (the clay won't bind with the silica) and then top it with a layer of regular gravel, the color of my choice, just for aesthetics.


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GulfCoastAquarian_
> I've got some Hygrophilia Siamensis (Giant Hygro) with long, thick, trailing roots in my 15g tank that has 50% Special Kitty substrate. In my 55g tank with Flourite, the same plant gets just a small patch of threadlike roots that barely hold it down.


Very interesting. Plants should only put out the minimal amount of energy required to get the job done, so it would appear that a plant, this plant, can get the root-only available nutrition it requires with tiny, weak roots in Flourtie but requires long massive roots in clay.


I'd guess that the more open porosity of the Flourite allows more nutrients to travel to the roots, where the more dense clay requires that the roots travel to locate nutrition as it is used up. While clay can hold lots of nutrients by virtue of it's high CEC, it still has to have nutrients delivered to the sites to be held until needed and utilized. Now if that clay were mixed with a complete fertilizer, I wonder if the results you saw would be any different?

In land plants you have gravity allowing water to run past, carrying nutrients that are bound to the available sites in the clay. But in a tank with dense clay, there would be very little motion of nutrients unless you had heater cables I suppose. 

Just theorizing here, based on your comments.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Interesting interpretation of the results, though. I've always considered thick, prodigious root production with healthy plants. But you might be right. Hmmmm


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

I have to agree with anonapersona here. I know in my dirt garden plants that are well fed in good soil develop less of a root system than plants in poor soil. I see this same thing with trees also.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

I can understand concerning water convection through Flourite being considerably better than Kitty Litter, but Kitty Litter has 15x the Cation Exchange Capacity that Flourite has. This is obviously affected by its brittle nature, and subsequent much larger surface area. 
Regardless, it is good advice to mix some sort of gravel to aid in water convection through the substrate.


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## DivingDW (Feb 24, 2003)

I decided to buy three bunchs of Amazon Sword plants to see how they do. I also added a strip light to the tank, so I estimate its getting a nice wpa. Also, instead of buying danios, I decided to get some Buenos Aires Tetras. They were just as cheap and I honeslty like them a lot better. Love watching them eat as well.


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

for those of you interested in some long (and sometimes heated) discussions about the pros/cons of kitty litter, try:

http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/

do a search for kitty litter. there are a lot of posts by a fellow called Dan Quackenbush.


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

Now I learned that one of the substrates is made of Fuller's Earth, which is the same clay that many kitty litters are made of, I think the stuff was Profile.

anona, who can argue both sides with no problem


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## ridns (Aug 9, 2002)

Having Kitty Litter in my Aquarium now for about 5 months, let me just say I wish I had never heard of this idea! Yes, the cation exchange in kitty Litter is exemplary, and yes Litty litter contains much more Iron. I have mentioned on several occasions that my water out of the tap is hard enough to drive nails. This is a constant battle for me to fight even with the help of RO water. I have even shyed away from Potassium Sulfate so as to exclude adding Magnessium. After all this caution, my waters GH continues to be high. I am at my witts end! I went back and closely examined the specs of Kitty Litter as compared to Flourite. Kitty Litter contains enormous amounts of Ca and Mg. I don't believe I could EVER remove enough of these elements to make my water soft. I can get to a certain point with having nice healthy plants and then it goes downhill causing me to have to go back and try again. I am at this time looking at substrates once again. I will remove this HEADACHE from my tank and hope the garbage men will take it. My order goes in to "Litemanu" today and the "no salt", "stump remover", "epsom salts", and "fleet enema" go back on the shelves where they came from. No more "short cuts" that become "long cuts" for me! I'm hoping the plants and fish will survive while I extracate the "Kitty Litter" and replace it with something known to be a proven sucess as a substrate. I am so disgusted with this "Kitty Litter" idea I can't find enough words to completely express myself! Anyone considering this route... save yourself many headaches and get a proven substrate.   :evil: :twisted:


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

Yes, there are two types of montmorillenite, (excuse the spelling, too lazy to look up the info, recalling a discussion on a koi board) one is Calcium something, the other Sodium something. Koi Clay was one type the kitty litter was the other. Koi Clay will cloud the water then settle, leaving behind something that makes koi glittery, very good for skin and health, kitty litter clumps, both were used to kill string algae. Bentonite and Fullers Earth are all types of this same stuff, with small differences, Profile substrate is made of Fullers Earth. I think it was CyberFins.com that had the discussion archived. Sorry I can't recall more.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Sorry to see you've had such a foul experience with Kitty Litter, ridns. Did you use a mixture or 100? I have fairly hard water as well and haven't noticed a trend of rising KH over the years I've had Kitty Litter in there. That is not to say yours is not causing a problem, but when used just as fuller's earth might be used, it is an economical alternative.

One thing is certain, though, no DIY quick fix is as sure a thing is a proven formula. I wish you luck in finding stability in your system!


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## ridns (Aug 9, 2002)

I'm just happy to have finally figured out what my problem is. I also noticed there are two kinds anonapersona, I evidently got the bad stuff. Now I find I have another problem. The substrate I picked to replace the kitty Litter is going to cost me an arm and a leg. Does anyone know of a bargain counter for substrates? :wink: :? :shock:


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

Tex blast, large sand used for sand blasting. 

Personally I don't care for the light color, whites and beiges and browns, no dark colors. I read about a black blasting sand but have never found it. I saw black sand at the local store, but they would not claim that it was inert. I saw large black gravel at the rock and boulder pit, but a splash of muratic acid foamed and bubbled, so not inert. I hesitted to get the smaller black gravel that appeared to be a crushed version of the large.


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## ginnie5 (Jan 9, 2003)

shot my ph way up overnight. Dh has a machine shop so I've even had him on the lookout. No luck. I did find one lfs that would order some for me and charge me their cost for a case. I just didn't order it in time to get my 75 set up.


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## doooog (Mar 17, 2003)

hey anonapersona, I was just curious of your background.

You seem very knowlegeable about the cadion exchange capacity of materials, and of the different forms of clays. I ask this as I am learning about this in one of my classes at Purdue. Just curious (you sound a bit like my proffessor ) 

montmorillinite, illite and kaolinite are the three classes of clays, i know that on has a higher CEC than the others, one swells like crazy in water, i believe mont' has a CEC of 100, i don't have my notes handy to spout off the other values. I would also like to point out that organic matter has a much higher CEC of roughly 200, so why not just add peat? sure it may make it complicated and all, but even a little should go a long way.

Good Luck all,

~Doug


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

doooog said:


> hey anonapersona, I was just curious of your background.
> 
> You seem very knowlegeable about the cadion exchange capacity of materials, and of the different forms of clays. I ask this as I am learning about this in one of my classes at Purdue. Just curious (you sound a bit like my proffessor )
> 
> ...


Bsckground, well, in reverse chronological order, part-time landscape designer with "most of" a certificate in horticulture, "most" of a Masters of Engineering (petroleum), BS Mechanical Engineering (completed but no PE). I don't always finish stuff :roll: So, the Geology sort of runs into the horticulture and then designing the pond got me into all of this reading online and of course the high tech koi stuff piqued my interest in the hows and whys of all that, though it really only barely related to the goldfish I was keeping.

A lot of what I recall about this was from the Koi and Pond type forums, Roark's Experimental Puddle was the most technical of these and also CyberFins.com had some wonderful archived discussions on kitty litter as water conditioner for koi as a Koi Clay substitute as well as a planting medium for pond plants and a treatment for string algae (which I've never seen even mentioned in the planted aquaria world). 

Anyhow, I found all of that clay discussion fascinating for I know of bentonite from drilling mud, and the mud facial that all of us use here at home for "beauty treatments" by mom, "zit removal" by the teens, and "mosquito toxin remover" by everyone (which costs $10 a lb and is very hard to find), and I always wondered if drilling mud would be pure enough to use as a skin treatment. Then it turns up as pond planting media (fired Fuller's Earth at $34/bag as Profile) and koi treatment for ($14/ few ounces). And, of course the backyard is sandy clay and a hole will hold water for nearly a week. So, all these things run together. Anyhow, somewhere here I have a phone number of a mine in Arkansas that will sell 50 lbs of the pure stuff for maybe $30 including shipping, but I never got comfortable enough with it either as facial quality or really useful for planting.

Re the peat, many folks do use peat, but sometimes it goes foul, so to speak, according to my reading. Maybe someone who has actual experience in this will explain more. I'm still very new to planted tanks, and so I have to be careful about sounding like I know things when really I've only read of them. I do know from the pond that organic soil will really stink, not to mention tending to float if given a chance. 

I circumvented most of that by getting flourite and as I washed it I saved the "fines" and allowed the bucket to settle and then to dry (nearly). Then when I filled the tank I put this dust and fine gravel in the very bottom, then dry gravel on top. I figure I have "nearly" clay down deep where the roots benifit, but clean gravel on top. If I were to add kitty litter, I think I'd use maybe 1 tablespoon per square foot, as I doubt that it would take much to acheive the CEC benifit.


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## doooog (Mar 17, 2003)

wow, you're really well rounded 

it's part of the ycle for peat to decompose, it actually becomes a big part in the nitrogen cycle, as bacteria digest it and all, eventually they will (after the C:N ratio decreases) add nitrogen to the substrate and help a bunch. It's good stuff, depends upon alot of your water parameters how long it will last. 

Good Luck

~Doug


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## DivingDW (Feb 24, 2003)

Ok, after using the kitty litter for a month, I've decided that it wasn't as good as Flourite. My Anacharis grew huge roots which is the upside, but the actual Stalk grew maybe a whole centimeter over a month. The Amazon swords just looked like they were about to croak. I had to take them out of there. My experience has told me that Kitty Litter should only be used under great experience and caution, as I have seen a few of you have had good luck with it. I still would suggest Flourite over Kitty Litter.


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

The use of Kitty litter was actually first introduced on the internet a few years ago by a gentleman named Dan Quackenbush, a DIY plant guru who had his own business selling plants out of GA. He passed away I think it was in 1999.

When he first came up with this idea, Flourite had not yet come out, and he came up with this as a low cost price alternative to expensive laterite at that time. He chemically tested several brands of Kitty litter, and found many contained very low amounts of iron and minerals, and some were not made of clay at all, (actually processed wood shavings or paper) while other also contained chemicals and perfumes not suitable for the aquarium.

The brand he tested for iron and other minerals that came out pretty good was Hartz Mountain. But even this brand varied depending on what type of clay it was made from and what part of the country it was mined frrom...but even so, he was a firm believer of using this, and had a dedicated legion of followers.

But then Flourite came out...and later other simular products... then a couple years ago people discovered a cheap clay gravel sold at Home Depot... first under the name Profile Aquatic Plant soil, then under the name Schultz clay conditioner, and then under the name Turface.

All of these are actually the same product made from a type of clay called Fullers earth. It has good iron levels as well as several other minerals, and extremely high CEC. Its very porus and light weight. It is slightly alkaline.

I use this product quite a bit because it is cheap, available in bulk, and works satisfactorily. It is much safer than kitty litter.

Kitty litter comes from questionable sources, is not always uniformaly the same, and it breaks down...disintergrates. This Fullers earth product is oven baked just like Flourite is, which makes it last fore ever.

AS far as long plant roots indicating a problem? I'ver never really heard this before, but I think it really depends on the plant in question. some plants just have very shallow roots, while others grow very massive roots.

A sword plant for example growing very healthy over a period of years will almost root bound a small aquarium. Lilies grow massive roots with long trunk roots that send out runners all over the place, 6, 8, 10 feet away from the plant.

Great site here folks! Congrats! I kept seeing in my site statistics all these people being reffered from this place, I had to come check it out! 8)


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Thanks for that history on the kitty litter story, Robert. I didn't know most of that! And welcome to the board. Many of us members here head to your board when we want the in depth scientific explanation to our questions. If properly researched, fullers earth and some kitty litters are apparently a good supplement for an enriched substrate, but caution is evidently advised.
Again, welcome!


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Welcome to the dark side Robert :twisted: Just kidding of course. The problem with kitty litter as I see it is that it is really a soft baked clay product that is designed to absorb liquid. The problem with the vast majority of kitty litter is that it will break down/soften up over prolonged exposure to liquid. Note that hard baked clay products, Flourite, Turface, Profile and the like do not absorb any measurable amounts of water. If you shop around you can get the Turface/Profile product pretty cheap, and the color, while normally rather orange, is a lot more pleasing to me than the tan/grey of wet kitty litter. I would not hesitate to recommend Turface/Profile to someone as a inexpensive substrate.


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

Well, I am glad to see someone got this forum software to work! Kitty litter is also EXTREMELY dusty. People complain about Flourite, its nothing compared to clay kitty litter. But if you want something really cheap, Poor mans kitty litter: aka clay floor sweep, the stuff people use to put on oil spills on driveways. Usually around $5 for 50 pounds.

The biggest problem with kitty litter as I see it is you really have no idea of the mineral content unless you do a lab chemical analysis of it...and how many of us are capable of that?


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## Anonymous (Mar 2, 2003)

I want to know if anyone out there has used bentonite or kitty litter for a substrate in a pond . or what could i use insted of a liner so that i could grow large plants intothe soil?


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

I've used kitty litter in potted plants in a pond, but never loose as a basic substrate.


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## Kris (Feb 27, 2004)

would you guys recommend fullers earth/kitty litter over ecco complete ?


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