# Can i please get help with this algae?



## Michalina Sokolowska (Oct 11, 2018)

Hi I'm new to planted tank. I'm battling this algea for last 3 -4 weeks and unfortunately the algae is winning... I brought it in from lps with one of the plants when started the tank. I was hoping it will go away when planted and happy in new tank. Instead all my plants are now covered, some more, some less but definitely atm I can see more and more everyday. It is driving me mad because I will have no plants soon left. It is impossible to scrape of. I started yesterday double dose of excel 20ml / 180 litres tank (~50 gallon). I turned off the filters for 15 minutes and using siringe I spot treatment the biggest algae. Then I put filter back on. My wood shrimp didn't make it and I found it dead today... 
I have light on for about 6-8 hours everyday depend on the time I go sleep. 2x5000 lumens led.
I run CO2 baking soda + citric acid.
My salts finally came today so I started dosing using pps Pro metod.
I also noticed last couple of days new green algae on wood and glass.

What I m doing wrong???

I did previously water changes every 2-3 days as new tank cycle however now I'm trying to keep it running for week before water change but I think little green spots are sign that this is bad decision. 

My liquid test shows as :
NH3 0
NO2 0 (this value sometimes goes to <0.25)
No3 0 (this value sometimes goes to 5.0)
pH 7.8
Kh 11
Gh 21


Any ideas what else I can do or what I should do different way?


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

1. Light intensity 
What kind of lights are they? 2 x 5000 lumens is insane amount of light for 50 gallon aquarium. I am not sure how high above water they are, at 5” they produce total of 300 PAR light intensity at the substrate. Usual low light is 30 PAR, medium 50 PAR and high 100 PAR. Isn’t the 5000 lumens actually 5000 K?

2. Light photoperiod 
You have lights on 6 – 8 hours a day depending on sleep time. That will not work, you need a timer. The photoperiod is critical, higher the light intensity lower the photoperiod. If you use 1 x 5000 lumen fixture mounted 10” above water line (90 PAR) then 5 hours max. 

3. CO2
You run baking soda + citric acid. That is hopeless, it does nothing unless you use low light of 30 PAR. Then you can have photoperiod as long as needed. High LED light need pressurized CO2 injection.

4. Fertilizer
Your salts came today so you started dosing PPS-Pro method. Too bad you didn’t start earlier. How much are you dosing and how often? Plants needed food since day one. When plants health deteriorate algae start growing. 

5. Algae
Remove wood and other decorations until you have healthy plants. Healthy plants and Ramshorn snails will kill algae.


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## Michalina Sokolowska (Oct 11, 2018)

Hi, thanks for your reply. 
This is the flood light I have. I made mistake as it is 4500 lumens. I have read that this in medium light for this tank size. I have two of these. I'm currently working on rising them up to evenly spread the light by making need hood. It looks really bad on the picture but it is not as bad in reality, I think it is camera feature for deep darkness.

5 hours also sound good for me if this is the way to go as I'm out most of the day so I only can 'spend time' with my tank and make my eyes happy on evenings.

I'm dosing 4.5 ml each micro and macro. 
Yes, I stupidly belived soil as a substrate will do me at first but I quickly realised looking at my plants this is not the case. Also I received advise from other forum not to fertilise yet as everything needs to settle and plans are acting funny as suppliers normally grow them emerged and now plants are going through transformation to be submerged. I waited about week but my red plants are in a really bad state and it is only getting worse (holes in leaves, leaves literally metling in fingers) so I made decision to order salts. I spend few days educating myself in fertilising subject as I did not receive help in the other forum regarding my options or what to get and where. Also delivery took 4 days.

5 nerita snails are coming tomorrow. Enough or should I get more?


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## mrbhala (Sep 13, 2018)

Hi Edward,
What does PAR mean?


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## Michalina Sokolowska (Oct 11, 2018)

mrbhala said:


> Hi Edward,
> What does PAR mean?


I'm not Edward but I found this info helpful to understand. 
Edward correct me if this is not what you meant.

Photosynthetically Active Radiation (PAR) is the amount of light available for photosynthesis, which is light in the 400 to 700 nanometer wavelength range. PAR changes seasonally and varies depending on the latitude and time of day.

Levels are greatest during the summer at mid-day. Factors that reduce the amount of PAR available to plants include anything that reduces sunlight, such as cloud cover, shading by trees, and buildings. Air pollution also affects PAR by filtering out the amount of sunlight that can reach plants.

Why is Photosynthetically Active Radiation Important?
Photosynthetically Active Radiation is needed for photosynthesis and plant growth. Higher PAR promotes plant growth, and monitoring monitoring PAR is important to ensure plants are receiving adequate light for this process.

PAR values range from 0 to 3,000 millimoles per square meter. At night, PAR is zero. During mid-day in the summer, PAR often reaches 2,000 to 3,000 millimoles per square meter.

How is Photosynthetically Active Radiation measured?
Photosynthetically Active Radiation (PAR) is reported as millimoles of light energy per square meter.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Snails at an early stage of aquarium setup are very important. They remove dead plant matter before algae take advantage, wipe out various algae species and most importantly they remove periphyton. Periphyton is where BBA black algae starts growing. Algae and periphyton are suffocating plants and inhibiting their nutrient uptake. I have seen algae infested aquariums being transformed into crystal clear in just few weeks by snails. 

At this time I would be changing 50% water every week and dosing 15 ml Solution #1 macros and 2.5 ml Solution #2 micros, both daily and preferably before lights go on. Just to make sure, what recipe are you using?


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## Michalina Sokolowska (Oct 11, 2018)

I've this makro for 1000ml water
59 grams K2SO4
65 grams KNO3
6 grams KH2PO4 
41 grams MgSO4 

And DIY CSM+B (the only one I found in UK, seller claims it is exactly the same as original one)
Ingredients Fe – 7,80%, Mn- 2,00%, B – 1,40%, Zn- 0,40%, Cu – 0,10%, Mo – 0,06%
E 202 & E 330 EDTA Chelated 

Should I follow the doses you provided me above? And how long for?

I don't mind getting more snails but I don't want to starve them at later point if there isn't enough algae.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Michalina Sokolowska said:


> I've this makro for 1000ml water
> 59 grams K2SO4
> 65 grams KNO3
> 6 grams KH2PO4
> ...


 It looks good, for more info see link in my signature. If you have premade a liter, pour little Excel to both solutions. It will prevent mold. 



Michalina Sokolowska said:


> Should I follow the doses you provided me above? And how long for?


 Until plants look good and algae goes away, probably few weeks. Then, 10 ml Solution #1 macros and 2.5 ml Solution #2 micros, both daily and see how the system reacts. I am worried about your CO2. The baking soda + citric acid will not be enough to support the high light. We will see.



Michalina Sokolowska said:


> I don't mind getting more snails but I don't want to starve them at later point if there isn't enough algae.


 Good point. I never had the nerite snails so I cannot say. What I read from others, these snails do a good job and only few species breed. I think the gang of five will do a good job.


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## Michalina Sokolowska (Oct 11, 2018)

Snails arrived this evening and already eating algae, but they have so much to eat I recon I will take some time.
I also noticed some of the algae turning red after double dose spot treatment with excel so I believe there's a little bit of hope.

Tbh I'm quite happy with my CO2 because it was so cheap to build and works really well. I'm getting pearling from the plants every day, which suppose to be good sign? And I can see the green one on the right is twice as big as when I first got it (3 weeks), the rest of the plants are at least 2 inch bigger. So yes, they are in bad state but at least growing, I'm hoping fertiliser will be my last missing piece. I'm also thinking to add magnetic shut off valve.

I can't see your signature as I have less than 10 posts, however I'm guessing you're referring to your google website? If so this was my first source of knowledge regarding pps pro and I have it bookmarked for the future reference.

Thank you very much for all your help. I really appreciate it. Last time I gave up planted tank idea because of the algae I couldn't control, lack of knowledge and it was just frustrating. It's very assuring for any newbie like me to have help of experienced hobbyist so once again thanks!


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Michalina Sokolowska said:


> I also noticed some of the algae turning red after double dose spot treatment with excel so I believe there's a little bit of hope.


 When BBA turns red it is dead. However, I would be careful with Excel, it kills some plants. 



> Tbh I'm quite happy with my CO2 because it was so cheap to build and works really well. I'm getting pearling from the plants every day, which suppose to be good sign?


 Yes and no, plants can pearl themselves to death when they don’t have nutrients. 



> And I can see the green one on the right is twice as big as when I first got it (3 weeks), the rest of the plants are at least 2 inch bigger.


 Plants can grow for a while as they are using up reserves accumulated in their tissue from better times.



> So yes, they are in bad state but at least growing, I'm hoping fertilizer will be my last missing piece.


 Nope, it will be one more aquarium.



> I'm also thinking to add magnetic shut off valve.


 What for?



> I can't see your signature as I have less than 10 posts, however I'm guessing you're referring to your google website? If so this was my first source of knowledge regarding PPS-Pro and I have it bookmarked for the future reference.


 Yes it is, thank you, that is nice. Here is the minimum 10 post policy cancelation:

*Perpetual Preservation System*
_The most accurate Aquatic plant fertilizers_

*PPS-Classic* & *PPS-Pro*
*Photography*



> Thank you very much for all your help. I really appreciate it. Last time I gave up planted tank idea because of the algae I couldn't control, lack of knowledge and it was just frustrating. It's very assuring for any newbie like me to have help of experienced hobbyist so once again thanks!


 You are very welcome and thank you for your kind words.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Michalina Sokolowska said:


> Tbh I'm quite happy with my CO2 because it was so cheap to build and works really well. I'm getting pearling from the plants every day, which suppose to be good sign? And I can see the green one on the right is twice as big as when I first got it (3 weeks), the rest of the plants are at least 2 inch bigger. So yes, they are in bad state but at least growing, I'm hoping fertiliser will be my last missing piece. I'm also thinking to add magnetic shut off valve.


As @Edward mentioned, high light with a long photoperiod and little CO2 (DIY CO2 is not good with high light – quantity and consistency are problems) is begging for hair algae. If you think your CO2 is good, try a simple test: take some tank water and let it sit out for a day or two. Then, measure the pH of that water and compare it to the pH of the tank water at the beginning, middle and end of your photoperiod. If you get >1.0 difference at each reading, you have the minimum needed for your high light environment. Anything less and you’ll need to greatly cut down on your light to deal with the low CO2. It's also important that the three readings show the same pH level, which will indicate if your CO2 injection is stable/consistent. Your KH and pH readings indicate that you have low CO2, about 5ppm. High light setups need 30-40ppm.



mrbhala said:


> Hi Edward,
> What does PAR mean?


 @Michalina Sokolowska offered a good basic description. It’s a little more involved and you can research it here on TPT. PAR is a good measure of total white light intensity. That’s the entire visible wavelength – the whole rainbow of colors. @Edward was trying to gauge your light intensity with the PAR value to determine what type of setup you have. You can probably find those values for your particular light at your given substrate level (inches from light to substrate). PAR is good to know for intensity, but the PUR (photosynthetically USABLE radiation) is also important regarding plant growth. Plants really only use the red and blue wavelengths and PUR measures that. So, PAR tells you how strong the light is and PUR tells you how much of that is useful for plant growth.



Michalina Sokolowska said:


> I started yesterday double dose of excel 20ml / 180 litres tank (~50 gallon).


As you found, Excel kills hair algae. I dose up to 4 times recommended dosage at a pH below 7, but only once per week. It will kill any hair algae. As @Edward was discussing, it is better to tune your light, CO2 and ferts to achieve stable health, but the single high Excel dose will take out that hair algae. The technique I use is here: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/23-algae/1234042-hair-algae-consuming-moss-hc-advice.html
Post #6
Your double dose worked, so I'd do that once a week until, you get your light, CO2 and ferts tuned in. If it doesn't kill it, move up to 3x the dosage, but be sure to oxygenate heavily the day of treatment. As mentioned, daily or several times per week usage of Excel will harm/kill anacharis, vals and some moss, but the single dose approach does not irreparably harm them.

Re nerites: they will leave hundreds of little white eggs everywhere. If you're ok with that, then fine If not, you may want to reconsider adding them.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Deanna said:


> ...


 Thank you, very nice.


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## Michalina Sokolowska (Oct 11, 2018)

Deanna,
Thank you for your advice about excel. I will start from tomorrow recommended dose. But I want to ask if I can still use excel the other 6 days of the week as per manufacturer instruction as I really like idea of just feeding my plants with it on daily basis? 
With snail eggs I just hope my barbs will eat them 😉 and if not then I will just have to accept them or rehome the snails. Something to worry about at later point.

As for the lighting both of you said this is high lighting. But if I'm honest when I was doing my original research prior to the purchase I actually wanted to avoid either low or high light... I just wanted couple of easy red plants, nothing to fancy. I used this website https://www.aquariumgardens.co.uk/lighting-guide-26-w.asp to determine how many lumens is suitable for my aquarium. I'm getting atm 50 lumens per litre which follows their medium light recommendations? Anyway this light is going now much higher above the tank I hope this will reduce the lighting.



Deanna said:


> If you think your CO2 is good, try a simple test: take some tank water and let it sit out for a day or two. Then, measure the pH of that water and compare it to the pH of the tank water at the beginning, middle and end of your photoperiod. If you get >1.0 difference at each reading, you have the minimum needed for your high light environment. Anything less and you’ll need to greatly cut down on your light to deal with the low CO2. It's also important that the three readings show the same pH level, which will indicate if your CO2 injection is stable/consistent. Your KH and pH readings indicate that you have low CO2, about 5ppm. High light setups need 30-40ppm.


Now, I've read this instructions about 10 times and I don't get how to read results, but I would like to try this test.
So I take sample of water from the aquarium and wait couple of days. Then I compare to the pH levels at beginning middle and end of photoperiod. I get that bit. Then I got lost. You say it is important that pH level is the same at all 3 reading (I understand what is stable pH and why is important). 
But just before that you say 'If you get >1.0 difference at each reading, you have the minimum needed for your high light environment.'

So surely I don't understand something because I can't have at the same time stable pH and difference >1.0???
If you could clarify this for me? I would be very grateful.

Edward,

At first I was running CO2 24/7 just at slower rate to keep pH at the same stable and lower level. However, people from the other forum advised me this was and I quote 'unnecessary' as fish can and will easily manage pH changes. Also it was waste of CO2 in their eyes as the CO2 is only used when lights are on and it is better to do more injection when plants are actually photosynthesising. 
So now I'm confused what to do because it is truly pain to remember to turn on and off this CO2 every day and magnetic valve would remember for me. 
From the other side (my point of view) I could just run it 24/7 and I don't even touch it, only do occasional checks.

Yes, I still have my old tank, only very small one about 20 gallon but I recently upgraded few bits on it and I'm not going to lie I have some plans for the future, but first baby steps, and I'm not touching it until first tank is sorted... But I know what you mean 😉


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Michalina Sokolowska said:


> But I want to ask if I can still use excel the other 6 days of the week as per manufacturer instruction as I really like idea of just feeding my plants with it on daily basis?


Yes. The only issue about using it daily/every other day is if you have those plants that I mentioned. The routine dosing of Excel will harm those plants. Virtually all other plants benefit from Seachem's recommended dosing Excel, particularly if a tank has low CO2 levels.



Michalina Sokolowska said:


> Now, I've read this instructions about 10 times and I don't get how to read results, but I would like to try this test.
> So I take sample of water from the aquarium and wait couple of days. Then I compare to the pH levels at beginning middle and end of photoperiod. I get that bit. Then I got lost. You say it is important that pH level is the same at all 3 reading (I understand what is stable pH and why is important).
> But just before that you say 'If you get >1.0 difference at each reading, you have the minimum needed for your high light environment.'
> 
> ...


This isn't about stable pH for pH's sake. This is about having stable CO2 levels. Adding CO2 causes pH to drop (the drop is harmless to fish). If you add CO2, the pH will drop and stay at a certain level so long as the CO2 is held at a fixed level. It is very important to maintain a fixed level of CO2 while lights are on. Inconsistent CO2 levels, while lights are on, cause plants to struggle and algae to flourish. So, whatever your pH level is while lights are on, it should stay at that level the entire time if your CO2 injection is consistent.

The pH drop test is different from the stability issue, above. With high light (and I can't tell, for sure, if you have high light) plants generally do best with a CO2 level of 30-40ppm. If you take out some tank water and let it sit a day or two, this allows all of the CO2 to leave that water. So, when you take the pH reading of that de-gassed water, it will be your base pH level (no influence from CO2). If your tank shows a 1 point pH drop from that degassed water, it means that the CO2 level is ~30ppm, the minimum needed for healthy plant growth under high light. 

CO2 levels can be estimated from KH and pH readings. You can use this calculator to make that estimate: Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium CO2 Calculator. The pH drop test will give you confirmation.


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## Michalina Sokolowska (Oct 11, 2018)

Thanks Deanna,
It is clear for me what to do now and why.
I use standard table kh pH CO2 correlation to see if I have enough CO2 (old fashioned way I suppose to the calculator), simply because my drop checker didn't come yet and I just wanted to make sure I have some (enough) CO2 in my water. The DIY CO2 version is a learning process how co2 works and if I like it I will go for pressurised, if not then downgrade the lights I suppose. 
Thank you for all your advice and time. It is all very helpful.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Michalina Sokolowska said:


> Thanks Deanna,
> It is clear for me what to do now and why.
> I use standard table kh pH CO2 correlation to see if I have enough CO2 (old fashioned way I suppose to the calculator), simply because my drop checker didn't come yet and I just wanted to make sure I have some (enough) CO2 in my water. The DIY CO2 version is a learning process how co2 works and if I like it I will go for pressurised, if not then downgrade the lights I suppose.
> Thank you for all your advice and time. It is all very helpful.


You're welcome.

We all, likely, go through the same process as you are now. We start with DIY just to see if it makes a difference. We see that it does and we stay with it for a while. Then, after we get tired of mixing the batch every week or so and we learn (from sites such as TPT) about the inconsistent delivery of DIY, we go to the next stage of trying to decide if we want to make the pressurized investment or go back to the low-tech stage and just use products such as Excel. You can get very good results with low-tech, just not the explosive growth, colors and variety available with high-tech. The only reason that I finally decided to go high-tech was because I wanted a lot of light to better see my fish (I also run a photoperiod of about 12 hours). As was pointed out, above, this much light, for this long, can be algae heaven unless there are plenty of healthy plants (and algae still needs to be battled).


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Michalina Sokolowska said:


> As for the lighting both of you said this is high lighting. But if I'm honest when I was doing my original research prior to the purchase I actually wanted to avoid either low or high light... I just wanted couple of easy red plants, nothing to fancy. I used this website https://www.aquariumgardens.co.uk/li...guide-26-w.asp to determine how many lumens is suitable for my aquarium. I'm getting atm 50 lumens per litre which follows their medium light recommendations? Anyway this light is going now much higher above the tank I hope this will reduce the lighting.


 In the past, light energy estimation was easy. When we said T5, T8, T12 or Metal Halide, aquarium size and fixture height we knew right away what to expect. But when LED came everything got messed up. 

LED of the same power in Watts can produce at substrate;
9 PAR, LED EcoSmart
30 PAR, LED Cree
100 PAR, LED 90°
106 PAR, LED 75°
112 PAR, LED 60°
180 PAR, LED 45°
205 PAR, LED 30°

Now we change the LED 90° distance from water surface, same Watts as above; 
65 PAR at 6”
100 PAR at 1”

Now we change the LED 30° distance from water surface, same Watts as above; 
122 PAR at 6”
205 PAR at 1”

Also we have to understand that no sales strategy tell the truth. Note: values above were calculated for 50 gallon by Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Light Calculator.

When I use the calculator for your 50 gallon and 2x 4500 lumens, LED 90° (most flood lights are 120°, close enough);
12” above water, 400 PAR at substrate
6” above water, 650 PAR at substrate
1” above water, 1100 PAR at substrate

Think about it because the usual low light is 30 PAR, medium 50 PAR and high 100 PAR.



Michalina Sokolowska said:


> At first I was running CO2 24/7 just at slower rate to keep pH at the same stable and lower level. However, people from the other forum advised me this was and I quote 'unnecessary' as fish can and will easily manage pH changes. Also it was waste of CO2 in their eyes as the CO2 is only used when lights are on and it is better to do more injection when plants are actually photosynthesising.
> So now I'm confused what to do because it is truly pain to remember to turn on and off this CO2 every day and magnetic valve would remember for me.
> From the other side (my point of view) I could just run it 24/7 and I don't even touch it, only do occasional checks.


Where does your CO2 go? How does it dissolve in the water, air stone or CO2 reactor? 

Some people let CO2 escape during the night and let pH go up. Then before lights they open valves and flood water with tons of CO2 in order to compensate for the night loss, pH goes down rapidly. They call this consistency.

Not me. I prefer lower CO2 supply 24/7. Less equipment to worry about, less fish and plant stress due to CO2 and pH fluctuations. This method has been working for me for many years and under very intense lights, we talking hundreds of PAR. 

So, let’s see what your baking soda + citric acid CO2 system can do in terms of supply quantity and dissolving rates.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Michalina Sokolowska said:


> So I take sample of water from the aquarium and wait couple of days.


You can expedite this by putting an air stone in a sample for 30 minutes.
Why wait for days?


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Edward said:


> I prefer lower CO2 supply 24/7. Less equipment to worry about, less fish and plant stress due to CO2 and pH fluctuations. This method has been working for me for many years and under very intense lights, we talking hundreds of PAR.


Edward, I've been thinking, recently, about doing this. Have you tested it against the day on / night off approach? If so, can you recall some of the results that may have stood out?


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Honestly, if this monstrosity was the only way to have high light planted aquarium I would find another hobby. 


Deanna said:


> Edward, I've been thinking, recently, about doing this. Have you tested it against the day on / night off approach? If so, can you recall some of the results that may have stood out?


 No I haven’t done test like that. I am not even interested in trying it because of number of reasons, having so many aquariums, getting so many timers, electronic controllers, solenoids, pH probes and their never ending inaccuracies and calibrations. It is just wrong in principle when plants and fish have to be constantly adjusting to varying conditions.

Having said that, plants that were grown in very high CO2 levels cannot easily adapt to medium CO2 levels. Their internal mechanism is not compatible. They have to become used to the new conditions in either directions. I have plants under PAR 400 at the growing tops and they are growing fast and may not be pearling because they are so used to the steady conditions. But if I try modifying CO2 supply they start pearling. 

Sometimes, pearling is a symptom of a plant having a bad time some time ago. It may be days or hours ago.


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## Michalina Sokolowska (Oct 11, 2018)

Deanna,
I'm only not sure how easy it would be for me to find refill place and how affordable. But I'm working on it. I'm hoping maybe local brewery would like to spare me some for good price 😉 
But I'm also thinking to downgrade on light since looks like I have to do it anyway.
Like I said I never intended for high tech and now I have to clean the mess I made...

Edward,
I use diffuser. 
I used calculator from the link and this are the results. So I will be definitely downgrading, but only after new year as November and December are always very expensive months for me. 

I have original t5 fixture for two bulbs on this tank, not working but I can rewire it, no problem. What would you say about tube led? Or any other led that can be hidden in the hood if you have any recommendations?


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Edward said:


> Honestly, if this monstrosity was the only way to have high light planted aquarium I would find another hobby.
> No I haven’t done test like that. I am not even interested in trying it because of number of reasons, having so many aquariums, getting so many timers, electronic controllers, solenoids, pH probes and their never ending inaccuracies and calibrations. It is just wrong in principle when plants and fish have to be constantly adjusting to varying conditions.
> 
> Having said that, plants that were grown in very high CO2 levels cannot easily adapt to medium CO2 levels. Their internal mechanism is not compatible. They have to become used to the new conditions in either directions. I have plants under PAR 400 at the growing tops and they are growing fast and may not be pearling because they are so used to the steady conditions. But if I try modifying CO2 supply they start pearling.
> ...


Agreed: my plants seem happiest when they aren't pearling and the pearling I do get is infrequent and usually follows a disruption - good or bad.

I'm interested in maintaining my 35-45ppm CO2 estimated level mainly due to the my photoperiod. I'm running about 100 PAR at the substrate, but have a 12-hour photoperiod. I'd be very concerned that algae would explode if I didn't maximize my CO2. However, I'd be interested in trying a shift to 24/7 CO2 and, a few weeks later, try to wean the plants from the 35-45ppm area. What level CO2 do you estimate you achieve in your best tanks? What are your maximum photoperiods in those tanks?


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Michalina

Well, check your aquarium pH and dKH when CO2 is on for few hours so we can see what it does. If the CO2 level is > 10 ppm and you like the 2x 4500 lumens LEDs then go ahead and use them. Set CO2 on 24/7 and light on a timer for 5 hours a day. 

The T5 fixtures are not bad, try the light calculator I mentioned above and see what PAR you would get.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Deanna said:


> Agreed: my plants seem happiest when they aren't pearling and the pearling I do get is infrequent and usually follows a disruption - good or bad.


 So true, I am glad you see that too.


> I'm interested in maintaining my 35-45ppm CO2 estimated level mainly due to the my photoperiod. I'm running about 100 PAR at the substrate, but have a 12-hour photoperiod. I'd be very concerned that algae would explode if I didn't maximize my CO2. However, I'd be interested in trying a shift to 24/7 CO2 and, a few weeks later, try to wean the plants from the 35-45ppm area. What level CO2 do you estimate you achieve in your best tanks? What are your maximum photoperiods in those tanks?


 You saying 12 hour photoperiod, but I remember you were saying before that you use siesta type timing, a break. 

One of the opinions is that running CO2 continuously is needless waste of gas. I don’t think it is. 
There are basically three CO2 options;

1. CO2 turned on continuously 24/7. 
2. CO2 turned on only when lights are on.
3. CO2 turned on only when lights are on and activated by pH controller.

When we look at option 1, we have consistent bubble rate where CO2 level built up over long time and follows day to day routine. Option 2, is conflicting in a sense that we are trying to build CO2 levels in very short period of time when lights are coming on and at the same time cannot do it fast enough for the risk of harming fish. This method makes the worst CO2 levels across the photoperiod. Option 3, should be the best method, but when we look at the start of the photoperiod, the huge amount of gas pouring in reactor, it is as much gas as option 1 needs for the night. And usually, these systems are set to higher and often critical levels consuming more gas than any other option. 

As to your question, I had over the years very good results using passive reactors. You know the ones you said they were ugly. Probably, but my objective was to create stable CO2 supply (CO2 quantity) regardless of CO2 levels. Plants loved it even when CO2 levels were low under very high light intensity. On the 120 gallon I have a preset CO2 flow meter and it works as well as the ugly passive reactors. 

The estimated CO2 levels were between 15 - 20 ppm with light intensity of 400 PAR at substrate, photoperiod 5 - 7 hours. The difference was only growth speed and plant size. 

I guess a decrease of CO2 level from 30 – 40 ppm to 15 – 20 ppm makes as a big shock as from 15 – 20 ppm to 5 ppm. I say the same problem as doubling the light or running out of nitrogen for some time. You know what I mean.



Maryland Guppy said:


> You can expedite this by putting an air stone in a sample for 30 minutes.
> Why wait for days?


 Are you sure the stones are 100% inert?


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## Michalina Sokolowska (Oct 11, 2018)

So... I don't have a stone, I don't like the buzzing sound of the air pump and I don't find need for it. I do like the look of bubbles though. I took sample today of the tank water and I will patiently wait couple of days. 
I set my co2 to 30 bubbles / minute continuously 24/7 and we shall see. Fingers crossed. I don't want to set it too high as I nearly gased my fish second day I started using co2. It was bad to the point that I found out I have detritus worms as few decided to evacuate from the gravel and was drifting in the water. My barbs ate them. Don't ask me were I got them from in new set up tank, but I suspect my pond can be a reason and the fact I used some media from there to speed up cycling new tank. I've read if there isn't many of them then they're actually quite good dealing with breaking down fish waste.

Also I must say I think I can see improvement with algae situation, I don't think I can see any new growth.
I planted yesterday 4 more plants to outcompete the algae.
Also today is a big day as one of my plants reached finally through the water so I'm very happy as in the past I was so terrible with plants even anubias and java moss used to die within month. And now I grew about 8" within few weeks 🙂 I think now I stared fertiliser plants are growing even faster, at least this one. 

I got a little bit worried about no3 (and kno3) as my tap water has about 40ppm so I quickly run the test but still shows fairly low on the test as 20ppm (this raised slightly after fertiliser).

I feel very happy so far about results and just want to say big thank you to everyone who contributed to my post by both asking questions (that is actually mostly me...) and giving answers as it is all learning experience for me, thank you so much.

Edward,
I really don't like to ask stupid questions but can you please explain to me or at least point into right direction where to find information. What is blm 90° or 75° or any other ° ? I had a little play with calculator yesterday but not sure what these mean so I feel I can't really find right light if I don't understand basics.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Edward said:


> You saying 12 hour photoperiod, but I remember you were saying before that you use siesta type timing, a break.
> 
> One of the opinions is that running CO2 continuously is needless waste of gas. I don’t think it is.
> There are basically three CO2 options;
> ...


Yes, good memory; I have a 3-hour siesta after the first 4-hour photperiod and then an 8-hour photoperiod after the siesta. I’m not sure that the siesta provides enough ‘off’ time to say that those are two photperiods and not one. I’ve run it continuously and can’t say that I’ve seen a remarkable difference.

Concerning your options:

Option 1: I can see why a 24/7 approach would allow the lower level that you mention to compensate for a build-up that would occur during the night. I’ll be trying it over the next month or two –want to bring the CO2 level down gradually to catch any negatives before they get out of hand.

Option 2 (my current setting): I think it’s not so sudden a surge as to be destabilizing. It doesn’t fully de-gas overnight and I start it two hours before lights on.

Option 3: I would think that this would be the most destabilizing depending upon what the sensitivity setting for the pH variance is. 

Yup: those big passive things look kinda ugly in the tank. :smile2: You might get a kick out of what I’m doing now: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/1276035-co2-tube-diffuser-new-design.html.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Edward said:


> ...
> 
> Sometimes, pearling is a symptom of a plant having a bad time some time ago. It may be days or hours ago.


I never heard that one before, but interesting. One nice thing about pearling plants is that it's very difficult for alga to stick to a pearl.

I can't honestly recall having an unhealthy plant pearling, unless it's "fake" pearling from a damaged leaf or water change.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

My understanding is that the water adjacent to the plant must be saturated with O2. This is not total tank saturation, just water nearest the plant. So, having decent water circulation (whatever “decent” means) should carry this heavily saturated water away and, if good gas exchange (whatever “good” means) is also encouraged, then sufficiently O2-saturated water may never occur adjacent to the plant. For example, when my tank is running normally, I rarely get pearling. When I turn my pump and filter off, I get pearling all over within about an hour. That seems to confirm that O2 saturation develops near the leaves as the plants discard it, but I do need/want to turn that circulation back on.

Warmer temperatures will also be more inclined to cause pearling (warmer water holds less O2), but I’ve never seen a curve showing O2 levels vs. temperature. Of course, there is the brief pearling after a WC due to the O2 content of fresh water. Not in my case though because I stage my new RODI water in a tank the day before my WC, so it’s not as O2-rich.

I suppose that, by combining the right mix of the above factors, you could get good pearling while your fish are gasping for oxygen. Essentially, my understanding of pearling simply means that your plants are having either a surge of growth (maybe not a good thing) or, while growing healthily, are in an environment of locally saturated water. Conversely, it may be misleading if the assumption is made that pearling means everything is fine if the local environment is so stagnant that any O2 from the plant is not dissolving.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

I have a somewhat different opinion of "true" pearling and it has nothing to do with the O2 saturation of the water.

When a plant pearls it is producing O2 at a very fast pace. Too fast for it to dissolve in the water. Some plants you could actually see the "pearl" before it exists the leaf. This is usually visible in Java Fern.

More proof of this is that if you take a healthy stem (that isn't pearling) usually in an co2-enriched tank and cut the stem, you'll get a steady stream of O2 existing the cut. Nothing is holding it back and it streams out at a very quick pace. Nothing has changed with the O2 in the tank or around the leaf where it previously wasn't pearling. Although this isn't true pearling its similar to a plant that produces O2 so fast it can't be contained and released slow enough to dissolve.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

asteriod said:


> I have a somewhat different opinion of "true" pearling and it has nothing to do with the O2 saturation of the water.
> 
> When a plant pearls it is producing O2 at a very fast pace. Too fast for it to dissolve in the water. Some plants you could actually see the "pearl" before it exists the leaf. This is usually visible in Java Fern.
> 
> More proof of this is that if you take a healthy stem (that isn't pearling) usually in an co2-enriched tank and cut the stem, you'll get a steady stream of O2 existing the cut. Nothing is holding it back and it streams out at a very quick pace. Nothing has changed with the O2 in the tank or around the leaf where it previously wasn't pearling. Although this isn't true pearling its similar to a plant that produces O2 so fast it can't be contained and released slow enough to dissolve.


No doubt that photosynthesizing plants are putting out x amount of O2 depending upon a given tank. A cut stem is like an aerator: too much O2 to be absorbed quickly enough. Regarding the true pearling, though, do you have it consistently in your tank? If so, an interesting experiment would be to increase the circulation to see if it disappears. I recall that you don't have as much circulation [probably] as I do. You would have to have a strong surface rippling (not breaking it), plus causing gentle waving, top to bottom of the plants, in order to approximate my situation. If you then saw pearling disappear, that might support the circulation aspect.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Interesting discussion.

Just goes to show you there are many ways and methods to keep a planted tank.

Personally I am one of those who only inject CO2 during the photo period. Been doing it for years, as I have never seen any benefit to running it over night. 

And to me global pearling is a good indicator of plant health. I notice when my tank is peaking global pearling goes up. Now that is not to say that pearling is itself a goal. I could make it pearl ridiculously at any time by increasing lights/CO2. In my tank it's a byproduct of getting things tuned just right. It certainly has never indicated a problem in my tank.

And that is not to discount any of the comments above. It's just very interesting how differently some approach the hobby, and are successful at it. It's all good discussion, and I very much enjoy hearing about others methods and seeing their results.


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## mrbhala (Sep 13, 2018)

Michalina Sokolowska said:


> mrbhala said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Edward,
> ...


Thanks Michalina


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Deanna said:


> No doubt that photosynthesizing plants are putting out x amount of O2 depending upon a given tank. A cut stem is like an aerator: too much O2 to be absorbed quickly enough. Regarding the true pearling, though, do you have it consistently in your tank? If so, an interesting experiment would be to increase the circulation to see if it disappears. I recall that you don't have as much circulation [probably] as I do. You would have to have a strong surface rippling (not breaking it), plus causing gentle waving, top to bottom of the plants, in order to approximate my situation. If you then saw pearling disappear, that might support the circulation aspect.


Correct, I don't have strong flow and/or turnover. My plants usually start to pearl by late morning everyday. So your theory or belief is that the O2 builds up around the plants as they discard it. I mean of course it could be, but I don't see that addressing the O2 (pearl) you can visibly see inside the plant leaf. I mentioned the cut stem, because to me it's similar to what happens when a plant true pearls. It's producing O2 at such a fast clip that it can't be absorbed quick enough. To me they are one in the same in terms of O2 being released to quickly even though one is of a more natural (aquarium-induced) nature.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Michalina Sokolowska said:


> Edward,
> I use diffuser.
> I used calculator from the link and this are the results.


 A good diffuser works wonders in 50 gallon aquariums. Does the gas fully dissolve and where are the light results?


> So I will be definitely downgrading, but only after new year as November and December are always very expensive months for me.


 I hope you mean upgrading?


> I set my co2 to 30 bubbles / minute continuously 24/7 and we shall see. Fingers crossed. I don't want to set it too high as I nearly gassed my fish second day I started using co2.


 KH and pH?


> I got a little bit worried about no3 (and kno3) as my tap water has about 40ppm so I quickly run the test but still shows fairly low on the test as 20ppm (this raised slightly after fertilizer).


 Strange because you said in post #1 that you tested 0 ppm NO3 in the aquarium. 


> What is blm 90° or 75° or any other ° ? I had a little play with calculator yesterday but not sure what these mean so I feel I can't really find right light if I don't understand basics.


 An LED can have a lens that is spreading light beam at an angle. This is the main reason why LEDs are so powerful by concentrating light onto smaller area. 


Deanna said:


> Yes, good memory; I have a 3-hour siesta after the first 4-hour photoperiod and then an 8-hour photoperiod after the siesta. I’m not sure that the siesta provides enough ‘off’ time to say that those are two photoperiods and not one. I’ve run it continuously and can’t say that I’ve seen a remarkable difference.


 Great, you turn CO2 on 2 hours before lights and off 1 hour before lights off, I assume. That is 16 hours of CO2 on and 8 hours of CO2 off. The plants are getting 12 hours of light a day spread over 15 hours each day. I think that is very unusual, the plants must be exhausted. 

Back to the pearling issue. 
When plants are moved from very bad environments to very good environments they pearl, and often more than existing plants. This is what I described in post #20 as “Sometimes, pearling is a symptom of a plant having a bad time some time ago.”. 

Also, when plants grown in high fertilizer high light environment are moved to no fertilizer and the same light, they pearl a lot and grow unhealthy, algae follows. This is a response to post #9 “I'm getting pearling from the plants every day, which supposed to be a good sign?” So no, I don’t think pearling must always be a good thing.


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## mrbhala (Sep 13, 2018)

Deanna said:


> As
> 
> @Michalina Sokolowska offered a good basic description. It’s a little more involved and you can research it here on TPT. PAR is a good measure of total white light intensity. That’s the entire visible wavelength – the whole rainbow of colors. @Edward was trying to gauge your light intensity with the PAR value to determine what type of setup you have. You can probably find those values for your particular light at your given substrate level (inches from light to substrate). PAR is good to know for intensity, but the PUR (photosynthetically USABLE radiation) is also important regarding plant growth. Plants really only use the red and blue wavelengths and PUR measures that. So, PAR tells you how strong the light is and PUR tells you how much of that is useful for plant growth.
> 
> ...


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## mrbhala (Sep 13, 2018)

Sorry for dragging this thread into different direction.....


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## kaldurak (May 2, 2010)

mrbhala said:


> Sorry for dragging this thread into different direction.....


Don't be, this has been an interesting discussion!


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## Michalina Sokolowska (Oct 11, 2018)

Downgrading... As less light 😉
So I found someone selling original set of of lights for my tank (bulb information attached) and hopefully my friend will collect this for me on Saturday as I live quite far and not worth the travel. So high light problem is nearly sorted. From here I can really stick to t5 (53 par) or led replacement but it will be tubes so I suppose better light spread over the tank and less PAR.
Calculation for my current light also included. I uploaded it before, I think it didn't load. Comes as 150 PAR.
As for the water test regarding my co2 levels. I'm really struggling with low range pH test from my local stores... I think I will order tomorrow electronic one as that what one of the guys in store told me he's using for his co2 and the cheap ones are only few quid on eBay, he said all I need as they don't last forever and rust inside anyway.
About no3. It was 5ppm in early stages of the tank and then 0 so I just assumed plants were using it, but I think since now there's more coming from fertiliser then maybe they just don't use it all? I don't know. Now I'm feeling confused.
My tap water is 40ppm according to the information on supplier website which lots of people in UK just seem to have as standard.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Michalina Sokolowska said:


> About no3. It was 5ppm in early stages of the tank and then 0 so I just assumed plants were using it, but I think since now there's more coming from fertiliser then maybe they just don't use it all? I don't know. Now I'm feeling confused.
> My tap water is 40ppm according to the information on supplier website which lots of people in UK just seem to have as standard.


 There is a mistake in your T5 attached picture, the [email protected], Lumens/Watt, Lumens and LSI are wrong. This is because you entered 2800 Lumens/Watt instead of 2800/45=62.2 . Other than that 50 PAR at substrate is the best choice and 8000 K colour is perfect.

Under this light the existing plants cannot take more than 1 ppm NO3 a day so if your tap has 40 ppm NO3 then you don’t want to add more. I would test the tap to make sure and premix new Solution #1 macros without NO3. 

What if my NO3 is too high with PPS-Pro dosing? 
_You may have too many fish or tap with high NO3. In such circumstances you can dose PPS-Pro #1 macros NO3 Free solution. It has the same solubility and dosing strategy as the original #1 macros solution. 

PPS-Pro #1 macros NO3 Free, 0 ppm NO3, 0.1 ppm PO4, 1 ppm K, 0.1 ppm Mg
Daily dose 1ml per 10 gallon or 40L
500 ml
40 g K2SO4
0 g KNO3 
3 g KH2PO4
20 g MgSO4_

Distilled or RO water should be used to mix the solutions. I would start dosing 2 ml per gallon, which is 10 ml daily to your 50 gallon / 200 L aquarium for few weeks. This will limit nutrients to 40 ppm NO3 from tap, 2.8 ppm PO4, 28 ppm K, 2.8 ppm Mg. Solution #2 micros should be dosed 2.5 ml daily at 0.05 ppm Fe. Lights on for only 6 hours a day until algae is gone.

https://www.amazon.de/Juwel-Aquarium-86345-HiLite-Leuchtst-T5/dp/B001MX5XIS


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## Michalina Sokolowska (Oct 11, 2018)

Edward,
I attached my water supplier detailed report which actually states no3 50ppm. I just tested water and is it crystal clear in the probe so 0ppm. When I first started the tank I used some water from my pond so that could also change readings and now after several water changes + plants growing this value changed again. What I don't get is why my test doesn't pick any no3 in tap water? 

Sorry, I forgot to previously reply about diffuser. It makes a lot of tiny bubbles but they don't all dissolve in water. Lots just goes up. I put diffuser under water spray so some are pushed back into water and drift around the tank.

I had really strange case today and nearly performed surgery on my ram. Basically she got one tiny fiber about 10mm long from filter media for tiny particles stock in her mouth. I first thought it was mouth fungus or something similar. But then got her inspected and realised it was fiber. When I tried to remove it turned out if was stock around her gills and I couldn't pull it out. Literally I grabbed the fibre with tweezers and I lifted up the fish like it was on the hook. I did eventually managed to remove it (hopefully all). It has nothing to do with my lights but I had some fish for few years before and never came across anything like it.

As for the lights hopefully my new lights will come tomorrow and if that happens I have few more questions about growing plants and co2 and liquid carbon. Mistake in calculator is obviously my fault when typing values.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Michalina Sokolowska said:


> Edward,
> I attached my water supplier detailed report which actually states no3 50ppm. I just tested water and is it crystal clear in the probe so 0ppm. When I first started the tank I used some water from my pond so that could also change readings and now after several water changes + plants growing this value changed again. What I don't get is why my test doesn't pick any no3 in tap water?


 The listed 50 ppm NO3 is the maximum acceptable concentration, not the actual water concentration. According to the statement the NO3 is 7 to 29 ppm with the average of 16 ppm. So we can go back to the original recipe with NO3.

Do you have a statement that says what Ca and Mg concentrations are?


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## Michalina Sokolowska (Oct 11, 2018)

Well I'm really glad I showed you the results because I was convinced about 50ppm so thanks for pointing me out my mistake in reading these. 
Water hardness information below. My zone is Burton 1.
I have this new t5 low light. It is really dark and it makes my tank water look green? I don't like... Maybe I just need to get used to it...


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

I see cloudy water haze, bacterial or algae bloom. It should clear up in several days. And the lights are too green? I think you said they were 8000 K and that should not be green. When you lift the light fixture and aim it at white wall or paper, does it look green? You can look at the tubes and confirm the K number. Also, there should be no glass between the tubes and water. 

Burton 1 water looks good as far as the data shows. 
138.3 ppm KH = 7.7 dKH
60.3 ppm Ca = 8.4 dGH(Ca)
14.72 ppm Mg = 3.4 dGH(Mg)
Total 11.8 dGH


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## Michalina Sokolowska (Oct 11, 2018)

I will check the light tomorrow morning but I think it might the illusion, possibly caused by the cloudy water. Bulbs are definielty original as nothing non original works with this unit... 

This cloudy water was never clear from day one, sometimes worse, sometimes better, not sure the reason. I'm not that bothered yet as it is new tank, sort of I expected it to happen. I'm using quite high doses of excel still and all the algae seem to dissapeared from plants, gravel, wood and glass so I think maybe bacteria then? Also maybe my filter? I'm not sure as I always used to go for size up and this one annoys me slightly as it is just the right size but I feel not all the particles are collected and I see some dirt sitting on the plants leaves. It comes off with just gentle shake or wave. Maybe is not the filter but just fine particle pad. I don't want to start changing media quite yet as I'm still waiting for bacteria to build up. I'm also considering already new filter maybe ex1200 however I don't want river.

As for the water in my tank when I tested GH with drop test is was always 22-25 drops. I think maybe gravel I have makes it really hard. It suppose to be high quality basalt but it's unbranded product so who knows.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Tested GH 22 – 25 drops, how does it translate to GH, degrees GH? You need to read the instructions. It would be good to test also the tap as it will tell you if something is dissolving, substrate or decorations.


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## Michalina Sokolowska (Oct 11, 2018)

One drop = 1°
I will run the test today.

Test results:
Aquarium:
Kh 11
GH 23
Tap water:
Kh 13
Gh 25
Also I don't have this low range pH test but pH in the tap is slightly lower than in the tank as there's slight colour difference in the both samples. pH is around 7.5.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

mrbhala said:


> Thanks all and Thanks @Deanna, I googled it also.
> I found that my Ludwigia repens starving for light, esp for blue light as I am using a normal LED Cool white which lacks in blue region. is LED grow light advisable?



They will work, if you're sure about the PAR and PUR values. I use two strips (series of 3 red, 1 blue along the strip) as a supplement to my main lighting. These particular ones add about 12 PAR, but it's almost all PUR value. You can see the curves I posted some time ago in my pictures section. They don't overwhelm the color balance of the main lighting, but add a slight increase in red overtones, which makes some red plants and fish colors 'pop' a little more on the red side.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Michalina,
What kind of GH and KH test kit is it?


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## Michalina Sokolowska (Oct 11, 2018)

Edward said:


> Michalina,
> What kind of GH and KH test kit is it?


NT labs aquarium test kit


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

NT Labs Aquarium Test Kit instructions: https://s14-eu5.startpage.com/cgi-b.../1826.jpg&sp=63bde30e3d501785a4d8b0512309571b

Burton 1 waterworks:
7.7 dKH
11.8 dGH

Tested tap:
13 dKH
25 dGH

Aquarium:
11 dKH
23 dGH

Something is fishy. Do you have a local fish store or city waterworks that can verify the levels? 

This could mean that when your aquarium pH is 7.5 and KH is 11 degrees then CO2 is 10 ppm. You need more CO2, something between 7.2 pH … 21 ppm CO2 and 7.0 pH … 33 ppm CO2.


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## Michalina Sokolowska (Oct 11, 2018)

I can take water sample to fish store but they all use strips test. Last they checked my pH was on their scale between 7 and 8. Will see if they can check kh and GH.

You say something is fishy? (Excellent use if words btw). I just thought maybe old pipes can change GH and kh. My house was build around 1940-1950 so I can imagine there's a lot of build up in the pipes?


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Michalina Sokolowska said:


> I can take water sample to fish store but they all use strips test. Last they checked my pH was on their scale between 7 and 8. Will see if they can check kh and GH.
> 
> You say something is fishy? (Excellent use if words btw). I just thought maybe old pipes can change GH and kh. My house was build around 1940-1950 so I can imagine there's a lot of build up in the pipes?


 The test strips are very limited at higher range so the workaround is to take 1L tap water and mix it with 3L RO water or any quantity at 1:3 ratio. Give them that and wait what they are going to say, then multiply by 4. As for the old house I can’t see old pipes adding 13 dGH just by flowing through.


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## Michalina Sokolowska (Oct 11, 2018)

Thank you. I will go pet shop today to ask about RO water. Can destined water like this one be used instead ?
https://www.halfords.com/workshop-tools/garage-equipment/battery-chargers-jump-starters/halfords-battery-top-up-water-5l?cm_mmc=Google+PLA-_-Garage+Equipment-_-Battery+Chargers+&+Jump+Starters-_-402396&istCompanyId=b8708c57-7a02-4cf6-b2c0-dc36b54a327e&istItemId=lwqrxl&istBid=tztt&_$ja=tsid:94971|cid:865695754|agid:43902127095|tid:aud-297219197929la-349733618053|crid:203186037792|nw:g|rnd:9213660226754118434|dvc:m|adp:1o3|mt:|loc:1006586&gclid=CjwKCAjwmdDeBRA8EiwAXlarFmTa-4QV-gjaU2oiNX2v3Ab9T0jHDGEIBnDRYaMarFcfzrl0etzMWhoCSWAQAvD_BwE


I used to have filter but it was few years ago and I'm pretty sure it's gone now. 

Also my pH meter came yesterday finally. Accuracy 0.1. tap water 7.2, tank 7.7. I do not use co2 in the tank since new lights. 
Should I still use co2 with this medium lights?
How long is photoperiod?
Also can I make my own 4 akh water from RO / destined + tap water? My drop checker also came so if co2 is still recommended for my tank I can finally sort out drop checker to see what's going on there or should I just stick to pH - kh - co2 calculator?


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

The link goes to Halfords Battery Top-Up Water 5L. It says it is DI deionized water, if true then should be fine. Also RO and distilled water are good for the test. 

Disconnecting the CO2 injection is not a good idea under 53 PAR lights, it is not low light. The photoperiod could be set to 7 hours for now and CO2 turning on two hours before the lights go on. Also, there should be no glass between the T5 and water. 

For the CO2 quantity I would follow Deanna’s post #11 where 1 pH drop is described. Also you can check KH/pH to CO2 relationship.

The drop checker needs 4 dKH solution and 2 drops of pH test solution. Making the 4 dKH can be done by adding 0.24 grams of baking soda NaHCO3 into 2L Coke bottle with DI or distilled water.


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## Michalina Sokolowska (Oct 11, 2018)

Thank you very much and I will get the water tomorrow to continue with my tests. Co2 is running back again.

I have now deionised water from car parts store. I will get to town again till end of the week to do the tests. I went few yesterday to pet store ask about RO but person I spoke with didn't even know what I meant. I asked them to test their water as we have the same supplier and it came very hard on the API 5 in 1 strip test the darkest colour on the scale so like you said Edward most likely out of scale. 

I would like ask once I have this 4kh water done, how much of the water actually goes in drop checker with two drops of pH test ? Like 1ml or something? Drop checker is pretty standard one, as per picture.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Michalina Sokolowska said:


> I would like ask once I have this 4dKH water done, how much of the water actually goes in drop checker with two drops of pH test ? Like 1ml or something? Drop checker is pretty standard one, as per picture.


 As much as possible, here.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

I'd like to add one thing about dc's: push them into the yellow region - you can gradually adapt your fish to this, particularly if you ripple the waters' surface well. I use a dc, now, only to alert me when my CO2 runs out, but I use a 5 dKH solution and have it into the yellowish-green area.

I lied, two things: place it near the substrate, where circulation is weakest, to get a better reading on total CO2 levels


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Deanna said:


> I'd like to add one thing about dc's: push them into the yellow region - you can gradually adapt your fish to this, particularly if you ripple the waters' surface well. I use a dc, now, only to alert me when my CO2 runs out, but I use a 5 dKH solution and have it into the yellowish-green area.


 That’s how you turn your plants into high CO2 addicts unable to function in moderate CO2 levels.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Edward said:


> That’s how you turn your plants into high CO2 addicts unable to function in moderate CO2 levels.


Yes, addicted to co2. JF under hi-light, hi-co2, low-flow. Ecstasy or Agony?


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Edward said:


> That’s how you turn your plants into high CO2 addicts unable to function in moderate CO2 levels.


That's what I want: plants main-lining on dope! Can always dial it back and work through the DT's. I'm pumping so much in that I'm worried I might asphyxiate my wife. Could be that she'd make a good canary-in-the-mine to keep my fish safe.


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## Michalina Sokolowska (Oct 11, 2018)

I finally managed to sort out the test for GH. 
API 5in1 test
On the picture: Left tank, right tap
Top tap, bottom tank

So...
02.11.18
Aquarium
Gh 60 ppm
Kh 40-80, closer to 40
pH closest to 7.0
NO2 0
No3 20

Tap
Gh 60 ppm
Kh 40-80 closer to 80
pH 7.0-7.5 slightly darker than tank so more like 7.5
NO2 0
No3 <20 slight colouration but much less than 20

API website says GH 60ppm = 3.4°
KH 40ppm 2.2°, 80ppm 4.5°

I used ratio 3:1 just to confirm.

Also one of my plants shows some sign of deficiency I think. Bottom leaves go yellow. I included picture. I did my research and Google says magnesium, but please confirm this with me.

And I also bought this really bad state plant recently which I like so much and it is rare here in UK so I got it hoping I can save it (I can't add picture as too big size, too many attachments?). The top started to turn red with my old lighting (currently this process stopped or is it really slow). When I bought it all apart from very top leaves were heavily covered in brown spots like dead parts. This has not improved and I can confirm more bottom leaves are turning completely brown and die and fall off. Is there any chance I can save it?

As for pH test and co2... 
I eventually compared tank without running co2 pH 8.2
With co2 running ph 7.4
I calibrated pH meter with buffer but all this tests drop, strip, meter are all over the place and just overwhelming for me as nothing makes sense to me.

I changed location for co2 diffuser and now it is directly under inlet for my filter. All bubbles are sucked in the filter so maybe they have more time to dissolve? Is is good idea? My filter makes funny sound every so often from trapped gas, so I just want to ask it is save or am I killing my filter?

I ordered scales to make kh water but seller sent me wrong scales... I have access to the laboratory so I will try to go there over weekend to make 4akh water for drop checker.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Why do you use the strips again? What happened to the liquid NT Labs Aquarium Test Kit?



Michalina Sokolowska said:


> Also one of my plants shows some sign of deficiency I think. Bottom leaves go yellow. I included picture. I did my research and Google says magnesium, but please confirm this with me.


 Determining nutrient deficiencies from plant pictures is like palm reading.



> And I also bought this really bad state plant recently which I like so much and it is rare here in UK so I got it hoping I can save it (I can't add picture as too big size, too many attachments?). The top started to turn red with my old lighting (currently this process stopped or is it really slow). When I bought it all apart from very top leaves were heavily covered in brown spots like dead parts. This has not improved and I can confirm more bottom leaves are turning completely brown and die and fall off. Is there any chance I can save it?


 Do we know what plant it is, name? 



> I calibrated pH meter with buffer but all this tests drop, strip, meter are all over the place and just overwhelming for me as nothing makes sense to me.


 Agreed. First you started using strips, we said they are no good. Then you used liquid test kit which didn’t agree with city water report. Then you were going to a fish store to have GH and KH tested water diluted to one quarter. And today you post test strips results. 



> I changed location for co2 diffuser and now it is directly under inlet for my filter. All bubbles are sucked in the filter so maybe they have more time to dissolve? Is is good idea? My filter makes funny sound every so often from trapped gas, so I just want to ask it is save or am I killing my filter?


 It is not killing the filter but it may suck in a fish. 



> I can't add picture as too big size, too many attachments?


 Yes, you have uploaded four large size attachments. If you delete them then you can attach more small size pictures again. 

Post #3
4.1 MB, https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=870411&d=1539292567
0.2 MB, https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=870413&d=1539293134

Post #61
3.3 MB, https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=871743&d=1541175526
3.9 MB, https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=871745&d=1541176338


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## Michalina Sokolowska (Oct 11, 2018)

Edward,
Sorry for confusion and lack of clarification.

I went petshop to do the water test but instead a nice guy working there just packed me with few free test strips so I can do the tests at home. I did the test and uploaded results. 
I thought the point of this 3:1 ratio test was to check if my liquid test is simply rubbish because it doesn't match city water results and to compare to other type of test to clarify accuracy. Petshop only uses test strips so this is all they can do for me. The test is API 5in1 and I uploaded all results, as I thought might be handy to double check other readings.
Myself I never used strips before as I always read how inaccurate they are but all petshops around me do use them. I always go for liquid test.
If you want me to repeat or change anything in this 3:1 ratio test then please let me know and I will do the test again.

Mystery plant name is: polygonum sp Sao Paulo. I'm not even going to add picture as I don't believe in palm reading (most of the time anyway)

Are there any other ways to identify and confirm nutrition defitiency (if any), other than water test?


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Hi Michalina
This is what we know so far, please see attachment. Maybe the tap levels fluctuate depending on the weather, rain and so on. You should get a cheap TDS tester and it will tell you right away mineral content changes. And if you make notes it will tell you how aquarium water deteriorates with increasing fertilizer leftovers and substrate leaks. 



> Are there any other ways to identify and confirm nutrition deficiency (if any), other than water test?


 Water testing is helpful and the best strategy is to supply everything plants need. Ca comes from tap, Mg comes also from tap and even if not, the fertilizer supplies it. N, P, K, S and all the necessary trace elements are in the fertilizer. 

What’s left is KH and it is going to be difficult. You already see problems with some plants, Polygonum sp. Sao Paulo is complaining. This is a stem plant and most so called difficult plants do well in low KH waters about 0 to 3 dKH. What you can do is give the plant direct light no shade, and snails to keep it clean and leave it alone. 

You have good quality 53 PAR T5 lights, hopefully no glass above water and 7 hour photoperiod. Change dosing to 5 ml for both solutions daily and 50% weekly water changes will limit concentrations to 14 ppm NO3, 1.4 ppm PO4, 18 ppm K, 1.4 ppm Mg, 1.4 ppm Fe(TE).



> As for pH test and co2... I eventually compared tank without running co2 pH 8.2
> With co2 running ph 7.4


 Very good, it indicates probability of 20 ppm CO2. That’s good. Next time try two days degassed aquarium water. The drop checker is going to be your friend. Also check your CO2 diffuser because it should produce miniature bubbles that dissolve before reaching surface.


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## Michalina Sokolowska (Oct 11, 2018)

I will leave GH and KH alone. Petshop offered me some products to lower my values but I really don't like to add any chemicals other than necessary. With my previous not planted tanks I've experienced simple rule: the morning stuff you pour in the more problems you create.

I just want to confirm the dosage for my fertiliser. I am currently dosing double of makro since you told me to do so until plants pick up for few weeks. 
I have these yellow leaves only on the bottom on one plant from the picture (Hygrophila guanensis). Other than that it grows extra bushy and just beautiful. Probably the best one in my tank.
I also have Sao Paulo with its described above problems. 
So I lower the dose right away back to 5ml? I'm sorry if this is stupid question I just want to make sure I don't starve my plants again considering they are as you said 'complaining'.

TDS meter is on my list to buy, I need minute to find the right one. I remember I first read about it on your website as indicator for water change I think. I might be wrong though I was absorbing a lot of knowledge then in very short space of time. I don't like big and often water changes tbh. I will buy one this week.

Just to confirm because I noticed you mentioned this before there's no glass between t5 and water. On the end of photoperiod plants get extra streachy and top leaves are pointing to the water surface. I would say hungry for the light.

I will take water sample from tank today morning and I will confirm pH in couple of days.

I just want to say again thank you very much for all your help and the time you spent to write down all your replies. I have learned so much and I actually understand light better now 🙂 
I am slowly passing my tiny knowledge to other members of fishy hobby who live in non English speaking country and never heard about pps-pro or pps-classic. I hope some of them will try your method, spread the word. I just can't believe that after so many years no-one did any effort to translate even the basics.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Michalina Sokolowska said:


> I will leave GH and KH alone. Petshop offered me some products to lower my values but I really don't like to add any chemicals other than necessary. With my previous not planted tanks I've experienced simple rule: the morning stuff you pour in the more problems you create.


 Good choice. The only way removing GH and KH is by RO unit or ion exchanger, both bringing more complications. Leaving it the way it is, you can still grow lots of plants. 



> I just want to confirm the dosage for my fertilizer. I am currently dosing double of macro since you told me to do so until plants pick up for few weeks.


 Yes that’s correct, I missed it, it is in post #8. I would change the fertilizing to 10 ml Solution #1 macro and 5 ml Solution #2 micro, both daily. This will limit nutrient levels to 28 ppm NO3, 2.8 ppm PO4, 36 ppm K, 2.8 ppm Mg, 1.4 ppm Fe(TE). This dose will work better with the high KH. 



> I have these yellow leaves only on the bottom on one plant from the picture (Hygrophila guanensis). Other than that it grows extra bushy and just beautiful. Probably the best one in my tank. I also have Sao Paulo with its described above problems.


 When the tops look healthy you can cut them and replant and discard the bottoms. 



> TDS meter is on my list to buy, I need minute to find the right one. I remember I first read about it on your website as indicator for water change I think. I might be wrong though I was absorbing a lot of knowledge then in very short space of time. I don't like big and often water changes tbh. I will buy one this week.


 I use it all the time. It is easy, fast and last forever. 



> On the end of photoperiod plants get extra stretchy and top leaves are pointing to the water surface. I would say hungry for the light.


 That’s right they do that when they are happy and have all needed nutrients. They also open before lights go on once they become used to the time routine. 



> I will take water sample from tank today morning and I will confirm pH in couple of days.


 Are you getting the 4 dKH solution? You will have fun with the drop checker. 



> I just want to say again thank you very much for all your help and the time you spent to write down all your replies. I have learned so much and I actually understand light better now 🙂
> I am slowly passing my tiny knowledge to other members of fishy hobby who live in non-English speaking country and never heard about PPS-Pro or PPS-Classic. I hope some of them will try your method, spread the word. I just can't believe that after so many years no-one did any effort to translate even the basics.


 Thank you.


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