# How do you guys make your low-tech tanks work? My plants are clearly unhappy and I'm not sure what to do :(



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

My approach is getting low tech plants 😅

I tried a bunch of different things and whatever took off I kept it, whatever died back or failed to thrive beyond some acceptable level I pulled and replaced with something new. 

Tank is roughly same age as yours and currently everyone in there seems happy, on the plant side at least. Only thing currently failing is the red tiger lotus (giving him another chance because I love him) and weeping moss, which will get tossed if it doesn’t make progress soon.


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## zedekias (12 mo ago)

I am an extreme novice so take this with a grain of salt. But I am having similar issues in my new low tech tank. I looked up symptoms of plant deficiencies. And I believe I have a nitrate/phosphorus deficiency. It looks like your nitrates are fine, but maybe something to look into? 

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

What is your maintenance schedule look like? 

First, I think you are off to a good start. Sure, not all your plants are the happiest, but a good proportion of your plants seem to be establishing well and the tank isn't being overwhelmed with algae. If you were way off base, you'd have a mess on your hands by four months. 

I found the "secrets" to getting my low tech tanks looking good was extremely consistent maintenance and patience. I don't maintain my tanks the same way because one is primarily a shrimp tank and my lights are different strengths, but I do the same thing every week and I have for going on two years. In the beginning I did a lot more tinkering because I didn't know what I was doing, but I believe after I established a reasonable routine (light fertilization, 50% WC in my main tank, 25% for the shrimp) the plants were able to fully adapt to their specific situation. But it takes a while, and some plants take longer than others. I kept thinking my plants had peaked and they kept getting better and better. 

I haven't grown any of the plants you're having trouble with, but I think Lobelia cardinalis is not the easiest to grow in a low tech set up. 

Is your light just blue and white LEDs? You might find that ones with some red diodes too just make the tank look a lot better.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Agree with Lidija that some plants (Stauro, Lobelia comes to mind) just don't do well without a bit of CO2. 
If you don't dose NO3, it may be getting low after a number of months. Not sure if you can trust the test kit unless you have calibrated it against known values.
Also, that 10W LED may (or may not) be too much light, concentrated, maybe sub-optimal spectrum.


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## itsdirk (Dec 16, 2021)

You just have to be ok that some plants just won’t work for you. S Repens doesn’t work for me either, it slowly withered away too. Crypts do very well for me so my tank is mainly crypts. There are quite a few ones to pick from as well.


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## Corymbosa (12 mo ago)

ElleDee said:


> What is your maintenance schedule look like?
> 
> First, I think you are off to a good start. Sure, not all your plants are the happiest, but a good proportion of your plants seem to be establishing well and the tank isn't being overwhelmed with algae. If you were way off base, you'd have a mess on your hands by four months.
> 
> ...


I scrape the algae off the glass and squeeze one coarse filter sponge before doing water changes on a weekly basis.

I decided to try dosing low amounts of tropica specialized ferts to make up for the potential lack in phosphates. I also got a Chihiros WRGB II  Now I'm wondering what temperature settings are best for my low tech tank? I should start the intensity low and slowly increase it right?


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

How big of a water change? I would do 50% easily without sensitive shrimp to deal with.

I would look into people who have that light and see what settings they are running. Just keep in mind that you'll need less light than people with CO2, but you can probably use the same channel ratios. Maybe someone has already figured out what will get you low/medium light in your tank size - that'd be fantastic. You might inevitably throw your tank for a loop figuring out the light, but it's better to err on the side of less light than too much.


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## Corymbosa (12 mo ago)

ElleDee said:


> How big of a water change? I would do 50% easily without sensitive shrimp to deal with.
> 
> I would look into people who have that light and see what settings they are running. Just keep in mind that you'll need less light than people with CO2, but you can probably use the same channel ratios. Maybe someone has already figured out what will get you low/medium light in your tank size - that'd be fantastic. You might inevitably throw your tank for a loop figuring out the light, but it's better to err on the side of less light than too much.


I usually do about 25-50% depending on how much gunk I see on the soil. I use a turkey blaster to agitate the poop and suck it all up. 

Yes, definitely less intensity than CO2 tanks for sure! I will look around and see if others have gotten a sweet spot.


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

So, when you change different amounts of water every week it changes the fertilizer levels in the tank. If you change less water and keep your fertilizer amounts the same, nutrient levels increase because you are exporting less with your water change. (Rotala Butterfly had a nutrient accumulation calculator you can play with to see how this works visually.) I recommend changing the same amount every week to keep it consistent, or adjusting your fertilizer amounts accordingly. More consistency, happier plants.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

itsdirk said:


> You just have to be ok that some plants just won’t work for you. S Repens doesn’t work for me either, it slowly withered away too. Crypts do very well for me so my tank is mainly crypts. There are quite a few ones to pick from as well.


This is my advice. Even the same exact setup with different water parameters from the tap will result in vastly different capabilities. I have found that crypts explode in size for me. I've had a single red crypt grow to be a 10" ball of leaves in a low tech tank over a year or so. Growth will generally be slow, so patience is needed. 

I have had zero luck with crypt parva, some Val's, and many mosses. I just can't keep them for whatever reason. Even java ferns kick my butt. They just won't take off and run for me. 

Finding a local fish store that sells plants and has them in their tanks really goes a long way. You can see what thrives and what struggles in similar water parameters.


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## yodog (Dec 6, 2021)

Good point, never thought of the similar water parameters from the local fish store connection


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Another thing to consider is temp differences, I saw some beauties in my lfs tanks and the dude assured me they were easy but my tank runs warm and it was not for them.


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## Hank-J (Nov 24, 2020)

Everyone has their own approach but plants don't - they need a specific environment to live in. My approach is unorthodox and works.

1. no CO2 injection - my plants grow slow but get what they need. You need patience - takes about 3 months to see something happen, but within 6 months a tank can go from one plant to a full tank of them.

2. I suggest you buy ADA Amazonia the original black one or Version2 as a small experiment (its Japanese black soil, but lacks important ingrediants) and a good potting mix (with a low wood content or your water will go yellow). I use one with added fertiliser only because I struggle to get a mix without additives and it works. You mix 50% potting mix and 50% Amazonia. After 3 months you should see some growth. No liquid fertilisers required, or substrate additives.

3. No fertilisers, solid or liquid - it just encourages algae. Potting mix is already loaded in nutrients - too many, and when you use potting mix you will get alot of algae. Putting the mix as a bottom layer and the ADA on top (50/50 mix) may help but I doubt it. Now I have mastered this set up I prefer pure brown loam from the wild and no potting mix. Keeps my tanks cleaner as there is a low nutrient level in the water column - which is the secret to growing plants properly. If you ask any plant nursery who grow pond plants they tell them never to use potting mix as it will turn your pond water green. BUT if you are starting out with aquarium plants its a good starting point. I would start small - say a 6 litre cheap clear plastic tub from a home and garden store.

Growing water plants is the same problem as maintaining healthy natural waterways. Both need low nutrients in the water column and a rich substrate (but not too rich or these nutrients will leach into the water column). High water nutrient levels cause algae blooms and other nasties in nature. In your water box it is exactly the same. The whole CO2 injection show is overrated. Last time I was in the wild I did not see a CO2 gas cylinder. CO2 is a growth accelerator (plant food), its not the holy grail of growing plants.

4. I have tried different water sources including pure rain water and find that my plants grow in either - both work. My main water source is quite hard water at PH8+. Rain water works because the natural soil base modifies the rain water just like it does in the wild. Its no longer rain water.

5. I don't use pumps, my tanks are like ponds and some are very small. As most of my tanks are soil (no ADA) I don't want to risk upsetting the substrate with water movement, but I expect I could have it if I wanted to.

6. I don't keep fish - only plants. So I don't cover my soils with gravel or anything. Zero water changes. I just top up my tanks with pure rain water for evaporation. I do have various micro-fauna in my tanks and they go crazy every time I top up with rain water.

7. The most important point is to respect the gas interchange at the air/water surface. My plants are breathing 02 and CO2 mostly from the atmosphere. Don't put a lid on your tank and keep the water surface 100% clean. If this means installing a small surface skimmer like the Eheim then so be it. Only tanks with CO2 injection can get away with a tank lid as they are artificially creating their own gases (CO2 at night, healthy plant respiration, and O2 during the day, photosynthesis) inside the tank. A tank full of plants will die if you put a lid on it. All depends how much plant matter you have in your tank.

If I get the time I intend to write a small book about growing underwater plants one day. We need to ask ourselves if low CO2 levels in water is such a problem for plants then why are there so many aquatic plant species? Its too easy to think marsh plants is the answer. Marsh plants grow out of the water because of natural variations in water levels in the wild, not necessarily because they want to harness atmospheric CO2. My marsh plants grow very well underwater and seem happy to do so. From experience I don't believe that low CO2 levels in water is as big a problem as we think it is.

That's my tip.


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## Hank-J (Nov 24, 2020)

Here is a diandrum (bit of lilaeopsis as well) tank with a 50/50 Amazonia/potting mix substrate (just mixed together by hand) about 6 months old. Began with a few small samples of diandrum (about 10 leaves in total). Began only 5% planted and now is almost a carpet. Despite the potting mix it appears to be low nutrient water - judging by the absence of green algae. This was my first ADA/mix tank - I think I originally used 1/3 potting mix to 2/3 ADA which would explain the difference. There is a lone crypt and an unidentified plant as well in bottom right corner. It just appeared one day - no idea what it is. Some jungle val growing next door in same 50/50 mix. The diandrum tank is 100% rain water (source water ph5) and val tank is quite hard water (source water ph8, GH10 if I recall). I only measure my source waters. Have too many tanks to have the time to measure their water parameters.


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## Hank-J (Nov 24, 2020)

An example of low nutrient and high nutrient water column. Tank on LEFT is in pure brown loam. Lighting is not good - its a light brown khaki color. RIGHT is in 50/50 ADA/potting mix, lots of algae (struggled to clean the plastic side) and both have no fertilisers added whatsover. LEFT is hard water, on RIGHT is rain water. Both tanks are same age, almost 6 months old and are Glosso Elatinoides. You will notice that on the LEFT the elatinoide grows horizontally, seeking the nutrients in the substrate (very low nutrients in the water), and on the RIGHT the glosso is growing vertically seeking the nutrients in the water column. Diandrum will only grow horizontal (previous post) as it appears to use almost no water nutrients at all.


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## Corymbosa (12 mo ago)

ElleDee said:


> So, when you change different amounts of water every week it changes the fertilizer levels in the tank. If you change less water and keep your fertilizer amounts the same, nutrient levels increase because you are exporting less with your water change. (Rotala Butterfly had a nutrient accumulation calculator you can play with to see how this works visually.) I recommend changing the same amount every week to keep it consistent, or adjusting your fertilizer amounts accordingly. More consistency, happier plants.


That makes so much sense! Thank you, I will do constant water changes from now on. 



Freemananana said:


> This is my advice. Even the same exact setup with different water parameters from the tap will result in vastly different capabilities. I have found that crypts explode in size for me. I've had a single red crypt grow to be a 10" ball of leaves in a low tech tank over a year or so. Growth will generally be slow, so patience is needed.
> 
> I have had zero luck with crypt parva, some Val's, and many mosses. I just can't keep them for whatever reason. Even java ferns kick my butt. They just won't take off and run for me.
> 
> Finding a local fish store that sells plants and has them in their tanks really goes a long way. You can see what thrives and what struggles in similar water parameters.


The thing is that most LFS that sells plants have co2 injection in their planted tanks and I'm sure they also dose their own nutrients. 



LidijaPN said:


> Another thing to consider is temp differences, I saw some beauties in my lfs tanks and the dude assured me they were easy but my tank runs warm and it was not for them.


That's true! I live in a tropical country so my room temperature is pretty high.



Hank-J said:


> Everyone has their own approach but plants don't - they need a specific environment to live in. My approach is unorthodox and works.
> 
> 1. no CO2 injection - my plants grow slow but get what they need. You need patience - takes about 3 months to see something happen, but within 6 months a tank can go from one plant to a full tank of them.
> 
> ...


Wow thank you so much for the detailed write-up! Really appreciate your advice! 

I will take some time to internalize it and try out some of the things you mentioned.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Hank-J said:


> An example of low nutrient and high nutrient water column. Tank on LEFT is in pure brown loam. Lighting is not good - its a light brown khaki color. RIGHT is in 50/50 ADA/potting mix, lots of algae (struggled to clean the plastic side) and both have no fertilisers added whatsover. LEFT is hard water, on RIGHT is rain water. Both tanks are same age, almost 6 months old and are Glosso Elatinoides. You will notice that on the LEFT the elatinoide grows horizontally, seeking the nutrients in the substrate (very low nutrients in the water), and on the RIGHT the glosso is growing vertically seeking the nutrients in the water column. Diandrum will only grow horizontal (previous post) as it appears to use almost no water nutrients at all.


If you ever write a book I’m buying it ⭐


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## Hank-J (Nov 24, 2020)

Thankyou for the kind words. I have only been growing aquatic plants for just over a year but have managed to devote alot of time to it (more than most people can) and I did keep aquatic plants very unsuccesfully for ten years a few decades ago. My book has changed dramatically since I wanted to write it. I would have to start over completely now. I began 100% High Tech with liquid fertilisers until my first CO2 system died after about 2 months so I then became Medium-Tech. To my utter suprise I discovered that I was able to acheive almost the same results, about 50% of the results (half the bubbles -photosynthesis) I got before with no CO2 injection so that by the time I got my present CO2 setup it has mostly been redundant - I don't use it anymore.

At the same time as I was working on what I would term 'extreme-photosynthesis' I was also experimenting with soils in other lowtech setups. The extreme-photosynthesis method made me believe that I had somehow managed to find an alternate source of CO2 in the aquarium. The original topic of my book. But I know now that this was not the case at all. Exactly how my plants fully submerged were able to pearl so heavily without CO2 injection, just with liquid ferts remains a mystery to me. I was dosing this tank daily with weekly water changes. Others have told me that I have magic water - but I don't believe I have. To acheive extreme-photosynthesis I had to use a ridiculous amount of light, which is one of the reasons presently all my tanks are solar (pure sunlight is very intense), though with low tech I could use lower levels of light - what most hobbyists would consider normal lighting levels.

Now I have gone 100% low tech and the topic will be how to do so. I believe the reason my lowtech tanks and the medium tank was able to grow so well was to do with Leibig's minimum law. The topic of my present book I intend to write. That underwater plants over millenia have developed a work-around, a 'cheat' to this law with regard to CO2 and I think I know how they do it. This has become the focus of my experiments now and I hope to write about it one day.

Dissolved gases in water is more a physics problem than a biological one and I do not believe that a limited amount of dissolved CO2 gas is actually a serious impediment to plants.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

I


Hank-J said:


> Thankyou for the kind words. I have only been growing aquatic plants for just over a year but have managed to devote alot of time to it (more than most people can) and I did keep aquatic plants very unsuccesfully for ten years a few decades ago. My book has changed dramatically since I wanted to write it. I would have to start over completely now. I began 100% High Tech with liquid fertilisers until my first CO2 system died after about 2 months so I then became Medium-Tech. To my utter suprise I discovered that I was able to acheive almost the same results, about 50% of the results (half the bubbles -photosynthesis) I got before with no CO2 injection so that by the time I got my present CO2 setup it has mostly been redundant - I don't use it anymore.
> 
> At the same time as I was working on what I would term 'extreme-photosynthesis' I was also experimenting with soils in other lowtech setups. The extreme-photosynthesis method made me believe that I had somehow managed to find an alternate source of CO2 in the aquarium. The original topic of my book. But I know now that this was not the case at all. Exactly how my plants fully submerged were able to pearl so heavily without CO2 injection, just with liquid ferts remains a mystery to me. I was dosing this tank daily with weekly water changes. Others have told me that I have magic water - but I don't believe I have. To acheive extreme-photosynthesis I had to use a ridiculous amount of light, which is one of the reasons presently all my tanks are solar (pure sunlight is very intense), though with low tech I could use lower levels of light - what most hobbyists would consider normal lighting levels.
> 
> ...


I find all of this utterly fascinating. Is there any thread where you continuously record your findings? I would really like to follow your discoveries!!!


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## Hank-J (Nov 24, 2020)

@LidijaPN, my name is Henry Kater - I will publish under that name as an e-book, probably in 10 years. 

Regarding Liebig's law of minimum, the problem may well be a misunderstanding of his proposed law and if I was able to sit down with him and explain where my mind is at he might have said that not only it is possible but in fact his law accounts for it - ie its not a cheat at all. As amateurs we are in the realm of things which are very complicated and our simplistic understanding of what a 'minimum' means is maybe our misunderstanding not his.

The Liebig problem is more akin to chemistry than physics but by applying a physics mind-frame the solution begins to appear. At least that is what I believe is going on. As an amateur non-scientist I will never be able to prove it but it makes sense to me.

Do professional botanists know what I am thinking is going on? I think they do but they have no interest in informing our hobby. I could be completely wrong of course - but its going to be fun to try to see where this goes.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Hank-J said:


> Everyone has their own approach but plants don't - they need a specific environment to live in. My approach is unorthodox and works.
> 
> 1. no CO2 injection...
> 
> ...


Wow you have it down. You must have some really nice tanks. Can you show a few tank pics using your methods?


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## Hank-J (Nov 24, 2020)

Asteroid, actually I have a youtube channel ready to go - its been my plan for a long time. There are a few channels I follow. I may start a thread here. My large tanks are not quite ready - only 3 months old and beginning to take form. My aquariums will be mostly biotopes - my ultimate aim. To replicate what I see in the wild. My ultimate aim is to keep fish in my tanks but for reasons as will be explained in my book keeping fish introduces problems in aquaria - problems I am presently avoiding. Strictly speaking a natural biotope requires no input and no output, or at least only one input - rain water. Introducing fish food to an aquarium is counter to my aim - it upsets the balance. The fish themselves are not the problem its the inputs (fish food). If I can somehow get vegetarian fish that survive on what is already in the tank, just as my micro-fauna do, then I will have acheived my aim. I have several tanks now that are in what I would call 'equilibrium', no input other than rain water, no output. Two tanks are one year old and were started with liquid fertilisers and have now reached equilibrium - no fertiliser or external inputs at all. As long as I top up evaporation every once in a while they are on autopilot. One of these tanks which I consider to be a 'success', my first one, has such green water that most people would not really desire it as an aquarium at all. But I suspect the green water has more to do with the micro-fauna (amphipoda) that lives in it than any other reason. A tank where they thrive along with the plants. I have managed to keep this species in tanks without green water but they seem to encourage this phenomenon, which also supports daphnia so I am pleased with this tank.

When my youtube channel is ready I will post a notice here.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Hank-J said:


> Asteroid, actually I have a youtube channel ready to go - its been my plan for a long time. There are a few channels I follow. I may start a thread here. My large tanks are not quite ready - only 3 months old and beginning to take form. My aquariums will be mostly biotopes - my ultimate aim. To replicate what I see in the wild. My ultimate aim is to keep fish in my tanks but for reasons as will be explained in my book keeping fish introduces problems in aquaria - problems I am presently avoiding. Strictly speaking a natural biotope requires no input and no output, or at least only one input - rain water. Introducing fish food to an aquarium is counter to my aim - it upsets the balance. The fish themselves are not the problem its the inputs (fish food). If I can somehow get vegetarian fish that survive on what is already in the tank, just as my micro-fauna do, then I will have acheived my aim. I have several tanks now that are in what I would call 'equilibrium', no input other than rain water, no output. Two tanks are one year old and were started with liquid fertilisers and have now reached equilibrium - no fertiliser or external inputs at all. As long as I top up evaporation every once in a while they are on autopilot. One of these tanks which I consider to be a 'success', my first one, has such green water that most people would not really desire it as an aquarium at all. But I suspect the green water has more to do with the micro-fauna (amphipoda) that lives in it than any other reason. A tank where they thrive along with the plants. I have managed to keep this species in tanks without green water but they seem to encourage this phenomenon, which also supports daphnia so I am pleased with this tank.
> 
> When my youtube channel is ready I will post a notice here.


I genuinely can’t wait ⭐


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## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

I'm late to the discussion but here are two of my low tech tanks:

















Both tanks are well established at nearly 30 months old. Both have inert substrates. My water is somewhat similar to your at kh 3 gh 7 and tds 120 (out of faucet). I think there are several factors. first i avoid more difficult plants to grow hence the lack of reds. Also the black tank was heavily over crowded for a while (guppies) and i think this helped a lot. There are still guppies in the tank but for a while i had no male; i recently added one and now have a lot of young guppies so we shall see what happens.
-
The top tank i had to replace the substrate due to some issues about 8 months ago. The plants didn't suffer much and in the new substrate they are growing a lot better (same plants just different substrate; the original substrate was too fine and packing and was causing anerobic (sp) pockets. There is more colour than you can see in the bottom tank due to some interesting crypts like nurii rosen but it is hard to capture it with the picture. Also the red lagenandra grows ok in the low tech tank - slowly - and perhaps a bit less colour due to the boivinianus shading. (sp). The boivinianus started out pretty small and well controlled but as you can see it has taken over the tank. That picture is a couple of months old and it is only grown larger (the plant is a full 30+ months old but it didn't grow wild until after 18 months or so). Individual leaves are over 20 inches long and unlike Ulvaceus which frequently hibernates this plant has not hibernated since it sprouted. Also a recent event is that it has started to bloom (it did not bloom the first two years).
-
Not much to say about the white tank the plants there are pretty obvious and in the open. Also not much unusual in that tank 'cept maybe the large pinto anubia. I haven't really given it as much love with interesting plants as the black tank. Oh well maybe that will change one day.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

jake21 said:


> I'm late to the discussion but here are two of my low tech tanks:
> View attachment 1037315
> 
> View attachment 1037314
> ...


Holy moly these are both beyond amazing!! Especially that wild kraken you have in the second tank!!!! 💚


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

Corymbosa said:


> The thing is that most LFS that sells plants have co2 injection in their planted tanks and I'm sure they also dose their own nutrients.


Where are you from!? I'm jealous. My LFS doesn't even have proper lighting on their tanks. The area I'm in is mostly reef centric as well. Finding a LFS that has plant knowledge would be awesome.


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## itsdirk (Dec 16, 2021)

I can’t buy from my lfs either. They all have bba on them. Definitely no co2 injection either they just put them in with random fish.


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## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

We only have one 'lfs' in my area; and they don't use co2; they do have kessil over those tanks - mostly to make the plants look nicer; they mostly sell them before much happens in their tank (I.e., they arrive; they put them in the display tank; they are sold before the plants can even begin to adapt to the lfs tank). No clue how they were grown before they arrive at the lfs...


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## Hank-J (Nov 24, 2020)

@jake21, I might have missed it in your post but how do you feed your plants? Is it just fish food and water changes? If that is the case I am impressed. Have heard about people growing plants without fertiliser but never had the chance yet to see it. Every time I see a tank photo I just assume some sort of fertiliser is going on.

I am guessing that if this is the case you do regular water changes, something like 40-50% a week. Not a critique. Not saying you should. Would just be curious to know. Whatever you are doing it obviously works.


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## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

Hank-J said:


> @jake21, I might have missed it in your post but how do you feed your plants? Is it just fish food and water changes? If that is the case I am impressed. Have heard about people growing plants without fertiliser but never had the chance yet to see it. Every time I see a tank photo I just assume some sort of fertiliser is going on.
> 
> I am guessing that if this is the case you do regular water changes, something like 40-50% a week. Not a critique. Not saying you should. Would just be curious to know. Whatever you are doing it obviously works.


I give it nilgoc thrive fertilizer at approx 2/3 dosage once a week (which in total is like 1/6 of recommended total dosage); I also dose iron once a month or so. As for water changes; I do two 50% water changes a week. There are two reasons for this - one is habbit - in the room there is a large tank and so i only do 1/4 water change twice a week and since i am doing water changes on that tank i throw in the extra 20 or 30 minutes to do water changes on the two 29s; the other reason is initially i had a huge number of guppies and i wanted to increase the amount of water change. In reality i could get away with 1 water change per two weeks (using nitrate as a measure) but I'm not sure how that would impact the plants. The black 29 has some issue in that the shading from the one large plant has started to retard some growth of the pso and even the crypts. Not sure there is a good solution to that problem other than pulling some of the leaves - i can state with careful examination there are quite a few new leaves forming so perhaps I will have to pull some of the larger ones.


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## Hank-J (Nov 24, 2020)

OK that is interesting. I would be considered some sort of crack-pot on most plant forums for saying this but I believe that your water changes are adding carbon and oxygen to your tank. It has to do with the way that gases dissolve in water. I don't presently do water changes but I have in the past.


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## Hank-J (Nov 24, 2020)

Just an update - I have about 10 aquaria but many of them are failed experiments - I only show my sucesses here.

Below is my original tiny tank of diandrum in loam. It is my greatest success so far IMO. The water has a color sometimes which in sunlight is simply amazing. The water has a slight cobalt blue tinge which is really beautiful and difficult to describe (something to do with the way the minute suspended clay particles refract natural daylight). Presently (summer) the water color has a typical slight haze because of the high clay clay content of the loam. Sometimes the water is 100% clear - it varies with the seasons and as the tank ages - not sure the blue water will ever return?. All my tanks are unheated and naturally lit so they have a winter/summer cycle. I actually dislike 100% clear water. I prefer a slight hazy look as long as its not so turbid that it harms the plant growth - by not letting the light through.

This is one of my oldest tank, in its second year of growth.

One problem with natural soils and aquaria (especially clay based loams) is that you have to accept some level of water turbidity at times. For example my tanks always begin lightly planted (about 5%) and spend the first 3 months with a lot of green filamentous algae. They can spend the first week (before I add the plants) almost completely turbid with almost zero visibility - it takes some time for the clay and dirt particles to settle. Its a completely different type of plant growing than using inert substrates or aquasoils which don't cloud the water and this method has its own unique perils. I personally prefer it. I should have mentioned to our friend at the start that if he mixes Amazonia and potting mix he may have to wait a week before the aquarium mud settles. You fill the tank as slowly as possible at first, but no manner of careful filling will prevent a brown tank water at the start. My tanks quickly settle and usually the haze only lasts about 3-4 days and I get started. I never change water, so a water change after filling is not on the cards for me.

This little tank here started with about 5 blades of grass and the water glowed orange for about 2 weeks with Zero visibility after I first filled it. Very slowly the plant started to grow and the water clear. As a rule the greater the plant growth and health - the clearer the water, I have observed in muddy aquaria and also outside ponds.


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## Hank-J (Nov 24, 2020)

Here is my attempt to upsize the diandrum tank. A bit of lilaeopsis can be seen as well. This tank is at the 6 month mark and is just starting to take off. The green filamentous algae which covered almost all of it since the beginning is still there but starting to dissappear. I never remove this algae as I consider it harmless to my plants and it doesn't seem to bother them much at all.

This tank extends at least 60 cm into the back but the low visibility prevents seeing that far. In another 3 months I expect it will begin to resemble the smaller one - I hope. This tank I estimate is about 50L of water - its a 110L capacity plastic tub (food-grade plastic) from a local hardware chain. I can't readily buy cost effective plastic aquariums - so I have had to improvise. I am a huge fan of plastic aquariums. This tank does not look like much of a success at the moment but I expect it will be.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Hank-J said:


> Here is my attempt to upsize the diandrum tank. A bit of lilaeopsis can be seen as well. This tank is at the 6 month mark and is just starting to take off. The green filamentous algae which covered almost all of it since the beginning is still there but starting to dissappear. I never remove this algae as I consider it harmless to my plants and it doesn't seem to bother them much at all.
> 
> This tank extends at least 60 cm into the back but the low visibility prevents seeing that far. In another 3 months I expect it will begin to resemble the smaller one - I hope. This tank I estimate is about 50L of water - its a 110L capacity plastic tub (food-grade plastic) from a local hardware chain. I can't readily buy cost effective plastic aquariums - so I have had to improvise. I am a huge fan of plastic aquariums. This tank does not look like much of a success at the moment but I expect it will be.
> 
> View attachment 1038715


Those look very cool!! Do you top off the water at least? You must have evaporation?


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## Hank-J (Nov 24, 2020)

Yes evaporation is a constant. I never use lids (I consider them a no-go for a low tech planted tank as I am a firm believer in the air/water interface and gas exchange). But its manageable. In summer water temperatures in my outdoor shed reach 30 deg C end of day, sometimes maybe a bit higher. Ambient air is 40+ for extended periods. But I only top up every fortnight. In winter I need less. Water temperatures can reach 4 deg C (approaching freezing), but the glosso (diandrum and elatinoides) grows well even at these extremes. Winter tank temperatures average10-20 deg C. Glossostigma elatinoides is the most misunderstood plant in our hobby. Its a cold water species, not tropical. Some cold water species can thrive in tropical water temperatures. Diandrum I would term temperate/sub-tropical.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Hank-J said:


> Yes evaporation is a constant. I never use lids (I consider them a no-go for a low tech planted tank as I am a firm believer in the air/water interface and gas exchange). But its manageable. In summer water temperatures in my outdoor shed reach 30 deg C end of day, sometimes maybe a bit higher. Ambient air is 40+ for extended periods. But I only top up every fortnight. In winter I need less. Water temperatures can reach 4 deg C (approaching freezing), but the glosso (diandrum and elatinoides) grows well even at these extremes. Winter tank temperatures average10-20 deg C. Glossostigma elatinoides is the most misunderstood plant in our hobby. Its a cold water species, not tropical. Some cold water species can thrive in tropical water temperatures. Diandrum I would term temperate/sub-tropical.


Do you overall find plants doing better in cold water rather than warm? Or is it entirely dependent on plant?


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## Hank-J (Nov 24, 2020)

I am very much aware that my successes are confined to glossostigma species right now. They appear to grow well in both cold and hot water (down to freezing, 4 deg C). Which is understandeable as this is exactly what they experience in their native habitat. A plant that can only handle warm temperatures in a temperate or sub-tropical location will not survive for long. Its also the reason diandrum grows both in and out of the water - it has to by necessity.

But I feel that cold water is its preference (same with all plants) simply because colder water dissolves more gases than warmer water. Its a simple law of chemistry/physics. Not really biology at all.

(EDIT: tropical plants don't appreciate very cold water (sub 10 deg C) - I suppose its all about their native habitat. Plants like what they have evolved to suit - their habitat. Tropicals require warmer water, at least from what I can tell. By studying their original location we can better understand what they need.)


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Hank-J said:


> I am very much aware that my successes are confined to glossostigma species right now. They appear to grow well in both cold and hot water (down to freezing, 4 deg C). Which is understandeable as this is exactly what they experience in their native habitat. A plant that can only handle warm temperatures in a temperate or sub-tropical location will not survive for long. Its also the reason diandrum grows both in and out of the water - it has to by necessity.
> 
> But I feel that cold water is its preference (same with all plants) simply because colder water dissolves more gases than warmer water. Its a simple law of chemistry/physics. Not really biology at all.
> 
> (EDIT: tropical plants don't appreciate very cold water (sub 10 deg C) - I suppose its all about their native habitat. Plants like what they have evolved to suit - their habitat. Tropicals require warmer water, at least from what I can tell. By studying their original location we can better understand what they need.)


So we could say that most plants prefer the colder end of their natural temperature range?


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## x0769 (Mar 17, 2014)

Corymbosa said:


> I scrape the algae off the glass and squeeze one coarse filter sponge before doing water changes on a weekly basis.
> 
> I decided to try dosing low amounts of tropica specialized ferts to make up for the potential lack in phosphates. I also got a Chihiros WRGB II  Now I'm wondering what temperature settings are best for my low tech tank? I should start the intensity low and slowly increase it right?
> View attachment 1037171


Your tank doesn't look too bad, but if you want to change something, I think it might be your light strength. I only have a low tech tank, but I use soil capped with gravel and sand. When I first started I had desk lamp with a white bulb. I changed the light to a more powerful light (Chihiros C2 white), and my plants started doing better. Try keeping everything the same but change the light intensity. 

Some YouTube people I follow are MD Fish Tanks (low tech tanks), and MJ Aquascaping (mainly high tech, but also has a few low tech tanks), I find their videos helpful. Also like most people here have said, it takes a lot of patience for a low tech tank. And if you change something, try to change only one thing at a time for easier trouble shooting.


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## Hank-J (Nov 24, 2020)

I believe they do - but as always, I may be wrong. I have found plants remarkably resistant to cold water extremes. I have kept tropicals in sub-10 deg C waters and almost all of them survive (hair grass, ambulia, monte carlo, crypt i forget its exact name). Anubias is the only plant I have lost so far but I have only tried a few. I find that they look terrible, but never lose their leaves completely (ie still photosynthesise), and bounce back when summer comes. I should say though that in winter the tank water willl usually rech 16-20 degrees by end of day so they do not endure sub-10 deg continuously - that may be enough to kill them outright. But mornings and nights of freezing (4 deg C) are common. Sub-tropicals (glosso) will handle these extremes no problem.

An example is diandrum - under water it is perennial, above water it is seasonal. I think that the winter frost kills it above water but below water it survives. So 4 deg C may seem cold but it has other ideas.

Tropicals seem to have the narrowest range of requirements (temperature) from what I can tell.

I would expect plants to be at their optimum at the bottom end of their range. So for tropicals my guess would be maybe as low as 20 deg C which is what that other post is observing. Lower temperature means more dissolved gases. But having said that my glosso is liking my 30 deg C water a lot! I love glosso - you've probably worked that out by now. 

Another thing we need to think hard on is this - I have spent a lot of time pondering this one - if our plants in nature can handle such extremes what about the fish? I think the same rules may apply. I have observed mosquito fish (native to Southern States USA) survive almost the same extremes as glosso outside - unfortunately this fish has become naturalised in Australia and is widespread. Haven't noticed them in winter yet - that may be their limit?


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

I’ve seen some people claim that a lot of aquarium fish endure far larger temperature ranges than we usually believe. But it’s scary to experiment with this because they are our precious babies. I’d handle accidentally freezing a plant a lot better than accidentally freezing a fish.....


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## Hank-J (Nov 24, 2020)

LidijaPN - Yes I agree fish are more delicate than plants, my only point is that they experience far more variation in the wild than we think they do. Being in captivity with water movement might be the reason they are more fragile when in captivity - in the wild they can choose their level and temperatures more easily. I have found micro-fauna much more delicate to gases (O2) than plants as well. Plants are very resilient in extremes, but tropicals are less resilient.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Come on. Don't push disinformation. It's absolute hogwash that liquid fertilizer is bad for planted tanks.

We won't clean this thread or others like it up again. But we will remove people from the forum for trolling.


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