# Dry-start Method (DSM) Help Needed



## nel (Jan 23, 2016)

It might be a little tricky to get the HC living once flooded without CO2, but maybe... Normally when going from emersed to submersed it's nice to give as much CO2 as you can, plants emersed are used to using as much as they want.


----------



## mrnvgtr (May 20, 2016)

nel said:


> It might be a little tricky to get the HC living once flooded without CO2, but maybe... Normally when going from emersed to submersed it's nice to give as much CO2 as you can, plants emersed are used to using as much as they want.


Right. I plan to us Excel. What I'm asking above is not whether this will work, but how to go about it.


----------



## nel (Jan 23, 2016)

In this case:
1. I would use normally flooded tank-like water. Mix water with nutritiens in planned doses and use it for spraying. 
2. Light should stay for around 8-10 hours, spray at least once a day (if water evaporates quicker - more), remove cover for 10-15 minutes daily. 
3. You need to bombard them with nutritiens, Excel, light - when flooding the biggest problem is to not kill plants with lower levels of everything. 
4. The substrate will have enough bacteria to sustain the tank, but for water clarification etc. you should wait another week after flooding.


----------



## mrnvgtr (May 20, 2016)

nel said:


> In this case:
> 1. I would use normally flooded tank-like water. Mix water with nutritiens in planned doses and use it for spraying.
> 2. Light should stay for around 8-10 hours, spray at least once a day (if water evaporates quicker - more), remove cover for 10-15 minutes daily.
> 3. You need to bombard them with nutritiens, Excel, light - when flooding the biggest problem is to not kill plants with lower levels of everything.
> 4. The substrate will have enough bacteria to sustain the tank, but for water clarification etc. you should wait another week after flooding.


Thanks for your response. Unfortunately I still need more details, so here are some replies to your answers:

1. Unfortunately I have no other tank water available. The best I could do is set up a pitcher of water with dechlorinator and ensure the right parameters are there before flooding and using in the spray bottle. What nutrients, besides the aforementioned Excel, would you recommend? I'm new to all the science and only knew about Excel from my research on doing this without CO2.

2. Great info on the uncover / cover and spray regimen. Do you only want to spray with light on or off, or does it not really matter? I've heard of light regimens which span the entire 24 hour day. Something like 4 hr ON / 6 hr OFF. That may be a pain in the ass schedule-wise, but I'd like to know the best way and then back off from there if I have to.

3. Same as #1. What nutrients, besides the aforementioned Excel, would you recommend?

4. Interesting. So basically I'm accomplishing the procedure we touch on in question #3 while ensuring the water parameters = complete cycle?


----------



## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

When spraying the plants daily use just water not a nutrient mix. All the nutrients will be in the substrate. The purpose of spraying is to maintain as high humidity as possible so the plants have an easier time adjusting to the submersed form. Vent for at least a few minutes per day or leave a very small permanent vent and spray often. Make sure the water level stays below the substrate level. Lights on for 8-10 hrs a day. I don't see a purpose in splitting the lighting time since the idea of that is for algae control in a submersed aquarium. And I know you said "not if it will work" but all of the plants you mentioned really do like co2. When using excell increase the intensity of use slowly. It can be shocking to plants and kills some.


----------



## mrnvgtr (May 20, 2016)

Willcooper said:


> When spraying the plants daily use just water not a nutrient mix. All the nutrients will be in the substrate. The purpose of spraying is to maintain as high humidity as possible so the plants have an easier time adjusting to the submersed form. Vent for at least a few minutes per day or leave a very small permanent vent and spray often. Make sure the water level stays below the substrate level. Lights on for 8-10 hrs a day. I don't see a purpose in splitting the lighting time since the idea of that is for algae control in a submersed aquarium. And I know you said "not if it will work" but all of the plants you mentioned really do like co2. When using excell increase the intensity of use slowly. It can be shocking to plants and kills some.


Understood. Thanks!


----------



## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

mrnvgtr said:


> Willcooper said:
> 
> 
> > When spraying the plants daily use just water not a nutrient mix. All the nutrients will be in the substrate. The purpose of spraying is to maintain as high humidity as possible so the plants have an easier time adjusting to the submersed form. Vent for at least a few minutes per day or leave a very small permanent vent and spray often. Make sure the water level stays below the substrate level. Lights on for 8-10 hrs a day. I don't see a purpose in splitting the lighting time since the idea of that is for algae control in a submersed aquarium. And I know you said "not if it will work" but all of the plants you mentioned really do like co2. When using excell increase the intensity of use slowly. It can be shocking to plants and kills some.
> ...


You're welcome. Be sure to post pics and updates!!!


----------



## mrnvgtr (May 20, 2016)

Willcooper said:


> You're welcome. Be sure to post pics and updates!!!


Will do. Once I get everything started and hopefully things calm down a little, I plan on creating a journal thread about my experiences with the tank.


----------



## mrnvgtr (May 20, 2016)

Making a round of purchases tomorrow to cover me from DSM set-up through the post-DSM period. Am I missing anything else?


----------



## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

mrnvgtr said:


> Making a round of purchases tomorrow to cover me from DSM set-up through the post-DSM period. Am I missing anything else?


What do you have so far?


----------



## mrnvgtr (May 20, 2016)

Willcooper said:


> What do you have so far?


Just the main components listed in my original post, plus hardscape (chunks of Pikes Peak Granite), Seachem Stability (bio kick-starter), Seachem Prime (dechlorinator), Seachem Flourish Excel, power strip with timer, and spray bottle.


----------



## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

mrnvgtr said:


> Willcooper said:
> 
> 
> > What do you have so far?
> ...


Cellophane and plants for the dsm. Are you planning to put the flourish or any other nutrients into the substrate when you do the dsm?


----------



## mrnvgtr (May 20, 2016)

Willcooper said:


> Cellophane and plants for the dsm. Are you planning to put the flourish or any other nutrients into the substrate when you do the dsm?


I'm not planning on anything unless someone points me in that direction, so that's what I'm asking here (ref original post questions). I'm new to setting up anything with successful plants.

I plan on ordering the plants from the sale forum here in the next day or two, assuming I have everything else ready first. So far I've decided to start with Utricularia Graminifolia and Staurogyne Repens. However, something I just thought of is I probably need to purchase plants that have been growing emersed. Is that assumption correct? If so, then I will likely have to order them elsewhere because I think most of the people selling here are selling from their own tank stock.


----------



## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

mrnvgtr said:


> Willcooper said:
> 
> 
> > Cellophane and plants for the dsm. Are you planning to put the flourish or any other nutrients into the substrate when you do the dsm?
> ...


Don't worry about buying anything emersed. Plants do pretty well making the transition. And you'd be surprised at how many people here have emersed setups. I have a bunch of stuff growing in my emersed tanks as do many others on here. You can always post WTB in the roak/wtb section for certain plants.


----------



## mrnvgtr (May 20, 2016)

Willcooper said:


> Don't worry about buying anything emersed. Plants do pretty well making the transition. And you'd be surprised at how many people here have emersed setups. I have a bunch of stuff growing in my emersed tanks as do many others on here. You can always post WTB in the roak/wtb section for certain plants.


Awesome, thanks again for the info!


----------



## mrnvgtr (May 20, 2016)

I'm up and running as of today. I'm half expecting to fail this first try because I don't feel confident about what I'm doing. Anyway, here are a few photos from setting it up today. I have a few questions below.














































*Questions:*

1. I'm concerned about temperature. The tank is in my basement where it's a bit cool. What is the optimal temperature and what is the best/easiest way to raise it to that mark?

2. It's quite dry where I live at approx 7500 ft above sea level. Water evaporates before your eyes. What is a good range of humidity to maintain?

I think that's all I have questions I have for now.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle (Sep 22, 2015)

Did you push the roots of the grass into the soil? I would probably thin out the bunches / clumps a fair bit, this would allow light to get to all areas and avoid the parts not getting much light from dyeing off, could probably use half the amount of flora you have... im no expert tho!

Edit - also wrap the tank with cling film to keep the humidity in the tank! Let it breath every few days...


----------



## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

mrnvgtr said:


> I'm up and running as of today. I'm half expecting to fail this first try because I don't feel confident about what I'm doing. Anyway, here are a few photos from setting it up today. I have a few questions below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Generally I would agree to break up the grass more but you started with so much of it I think it will spread nicely the way it is. You want to maintain somewhere in the 70ish% humidity or higher. If you have it sealed with cellophane and you are seeing water droplets on the glass and cellophane that's not from spraying you're probably good to go. I'm not sure how you would heat it. Not a prob for me here in AZ. While my elevation is not as high our natural humidity is bone dry here so as long as you maintain droplets inside I wouldn't worry about the evaporation because the cellophane will trap it in. Vent it everyday or so for co2 exchange. Make sure you don't have any water above the substrate as this can lead to BGA. Nice start. I'm sure it will work nicely.


----------



## mrnvgtr (May 20, 2016)

doylecolmdoyle said:


> Did you push the roots of the grass into the soil? I would probably thin out the bunches / clumps a fair bit, this would allow light to get to all areas and avoid the parts not getting much light from dyeing off, could probably use half the amount of flora you have... im no expert tho!
> 
> Edit - also wrap the tank with cling film to keep the humidity in the tank! Let it breath every few days...


I started with 5 2"x2" grass squares. The way they were shipped in wet paper towel, they came out fairly flat, so I simply cut them into 1/4s and when I set them in on the roots, I sort of mushed them around a little with my finger so that the roots would have as much direct contact with the soil as possible.

I will try thinning them out / cutting them down further. I bought probably more than I needed, as you can probably see, so I'm not sure how much more I can thin them out. I'm also afraid of handling them more and damaging them. I will give that a try though.

Also, I added cling wrap to the top after that photo was taken. Initially I've decided to seal it completely to help bring up the humidity.



Willcooper said:


> Generally I would agree to break up the grass more but you started with so much of it I think it will spread nicely the way it is. You want to maintain somewhere in the 70ish% humidity or higher. If you have it sealed with cellophane and you are seeing water droplets on the glass and cellophane that's not from spraying you're probably good to go. I'm not sure how you would heat it. Not a prob for me here in AZ. While my elevation is not as high our natural humidity is bone dry here so as long as you maintain droplets inside I wouldn't worry about the evaporation because the cellophane will trap it in. Vent it everyday or so for co2 exchange. Make sure you don't have any water above the substrate as this can lead to BGA. Nice start. I'm sure it will work nicely.


Got it, thanks.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle (Sep 22, 2015)

Sounds good, I could be wrong about thinning the clumps out more, perhaps just see how it goes!


----------



## mrnvgtr (May 20, 2016)

As expected, things aren't progressing too well. It's been 3 weeks now. About 3/4 of the Utricularia Graminifolia melted away within the first week. What's left looks stable and has shown light growth and a few runners. The two small stems of Staurogyne Repens don't appear to have grown, but otherwise appear very healthy. Now I need to decide what to do next.

My plan has been to present this aquarium to my son for his birthday, which is this Sunday (3 July). I was hoping to have completed the dry-start by now and be ready to submerge everything. He's still quite young, so the plan was for me to do all the magic behind the scenes and he just enjoy the beautiful aquarium and fish.

So here are my options how I see them, based on my marginal (at best) success thus far:

1. Submerge now and hope the remaining Utricularia Graminifolia spreads and thrives. I plan to use Excel to supplement CO2. Other than looking kind of bad, is there anything wrong with having large areas of open soil?
2. Continue dry-start until Utricularia Graminifolia some day grows in.
3. Continue dry-start; add more grass and maybe source from a different vendor.
4. Continue dry-start; lower expectations and go with a different hardier low filler plant, like more Staurogyne Repens.

Another variable, temperature, should improve when I bring the aquarium up from the basement to the main level of the house where temps are about 5 deg higher. Humidity is very low in Colorado, so other than some kind of expensive humidifier setup, I don't know how to fix that. Maybe another point for submerging now.

Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks!

Photo from today.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle (Sep 22, 2015)

Perhaps try get some MC I am having good results with using MC during the dry start, seems to be a good low tech carpeting plant!


----------



## mrnvgtr (May 20, 2016)

doylecolmdoyle said:


> Perhaps try get some MC I am having good results with using MC during the dry start, seems to be a good low tech carpeting plant!


I'll keep that in mind if I have to start over from scratch. The HG seems to be hanging on and exhibits some growth so far, so I don't think it's time to cut my losses yet.


----------



## Potassium Nitrate (Jun 20, 2016)

I used to grow HC emersed (Dry start) to sell because I did not have pressurized co2 at the time. What i did was:
1. Use a dirt based substrate
2. Keep plants covered, but fan the air out at least once a day
3. Spray the plants with just dechlorinated water, sometimes adding in a bit of seachmen nitrogen, which I do not really think was necessary
As for transitioning, you are going to HAVE TO USE PRESSURIZED CO2, because the plants grown outside of water will be more used to an environment with a lot of co2. That is why people often increase the normal level of co2 going into the tank prior to filling the tank and slowly decrease the levels. 
Hope this helped!


----------



## mrnvgtr (May 20, 2016)

Potassium Nitrate said:


> I used to grow HC emersed (Dry start) to sell because I did not have pressurized co2 at the time. What i did was:
> 1. Use a dirt based substrate
> 2. Keep plants covered, but fan the air out at least once a day
> 3. Spray the plants with just dechlorinated water, sometimes adding in a bit of seachmen nitrogen, which I do not really think was necessary
> ...


Ugh, not what I want to hear, but appreciate the information nonetheless. I had such a steep learning curve leading up to attempting this and nobody specifically jumped in with that advice beforehand, so I unfortunately missed that key concept.

It seems like a have three courses of action to consider:

1. Still do nothing and cross my fingers that maybe I'm that lucky guy that it all works out for (doubtful).

2. Begin gathering up a C02 setup. It would have to be DIY and probably scrounged together the cheap way.

3. No C02. Remove the waning Utricularia Graminifolia and add more Staurogyne Repens, or some other nice looking low tech bushy grower as soon as possible.

I'm leaning toward COA 3 since this is actually past due for my son's birthday and I feel bad. :frown2:


----------



## mrnvgtr (May 20, 2016)

Yep, I've implemented COA 3. I just purchased 5 stems of Staurogyne Repens for no other reason than I like the 2 stems I already have dry-starting. I know that means nothing at this point, but they weren't too expensive. I've also purchased 25 nodes of Lilaeopsis Brasiliensis because I googled every plant in the low-light list sticky thread and thought it seemed like a good ugly red-headed step child (alternative) to Utricularia Graminifolia. I'm not sure how I'll lay it out yet, but I may decide to experiment a little and re-plant the Utricularia Graminifolia that seems to be flourishing in a separate area before I submerge. Best case, I have two different grasses to aquascape; worst case, I just remove the Utricularia Graminifolia and move on.


----------



## wantsome (Sep 3, 2006)

I have quite a bit of knowledge on growing plants emersed. I haven't read the entire thread because I'm lazy but I'll offer some advice. You need high humidity. Water dripping down on the inside forming condensation is a sign you have enough humidity. In order to increase the humidity your substrate needs to be wamer then the air in the tank. If your light is putting out heat it can lower the humidity because it's raising the air temp. If your light is heating the air inside the tank the humidity will drop. You can raise the the light more off the tank a few inches until you see the condensation form on the glass. Plants can be damaged quickly if they aren't kept moist. You won't noticed they've been damaged until they die a few days later. There is more moisture closer to the substrate. 

With Aquasoil you don't need to add any type of ferts when emersed. When I grow anubias I have the lid sealed shut air tight. I can go weeks without opening it. I never mist my plants I just them go. My humidity is above 95%. If you want to increase the humidity go to a hydroponics store and get a heat mat for a humidity dome. Put your tank on it will work wonders. They cost about $25. 

Make sure to seal your tank up air tight to keep the humidity in. Make sure the substrate is as wet as you can get it without submerging the plants. You should be fine for a week or so without having to open it up if your humidity is high enough. There is a lot of Co2 in the air we breath. Always keep the plants misted when the lid is off. 

I don't think your plants will have any problem going from emersed to submerged. When you get the desired growth just flood the tank. 

Also emersed plants can handle longer day cycles. I have my plants growing 14 hours a day. After some trial and error you'll get the hang of it it's not hard. You can always google emersed aquarium and find lots of info.

Also you might get some blue/green or other algae growing on the substrate or even mold/fungus. Just flood the tank half way for a day or two and the mold/fungus will go away. If it's an algae flood the tank and treat it with peroxide.


----------



## mrnvgtr (May 20, 2016)

wantsome said:


> I have quite a bit of knowledge on growing plants emersed. I haven't read the entire thread because I'm lazy but I'll offer some advice....


Wow, that's some great information! I just wish I had read stuff like that before I took the leap.

On the light level adjustment, do you think that with the relatively cool house temperature and dry air we have in Colorado that it makes much difference if I raised my LED light by a little bit? I guess I could answer that myself by simply trying it. I'll give that a try tomorrow.

Noted the point about my aquasoil. No ferts. Done.

On the point you brought up about sealing tight, I had read somewhere else that you want to keep a slight opening for gas exchange. However, since I have an obvious humidity deficiency, I'm happy to adapt to your suggestion and keep it air tight except for the daily mistings. Done.

Ugh, I want to get a heat mat, but I'm trying to balance the expenses and don't think I can pull it off with everything else I've gotten into. I way undersold this whole idea to my wife, so I'm swimming in the deep end with this already. The heat mat seems like it would be a game changer though, so I will spring for one at the next opportunity, especially if I'm about to extend my dry-start by adding the aformentioned two low-tech plants.

On the point you brought up about going from emersed to submerged, did you say that with my original Utricularia Graminifolia in mind, or just the incoming low-tech Staurogyne Repens and Lilaeopsis Brasiliensis? I don't mean to ignite a debate on this, since a previous poster basically posted the opposing view, especially if it's one of those situationally dependent things. Either way, it's sort of a moot point since I bought the low-tech plants to elevate my chances of success. Like I said earlier, I'll keep what's left of my Utricularia Graminifolia and worst case it'll be a failed experiment; best case, I have two grasses to try to aquascape so it doesn't look like a mess of two types of grasses.

Noted the point about emersed plants benefiting from a longer day cycle. Done.

Noted the point about potential algae problems. Will do.

Thanks so much!


----------



## mrnvgtr (May 20, 2016)

An update and another question.....

Temp and humidity has improved a lot since moving the aquarium to the main part of the house and sealing the top tight. The Staurogyne Repens really continues to flourish, as indicated by the vertical growth and rapid growth of new stems. As brought up a few posts back, I added a few more new stems (back) as well as some Lilaeopsis Brasiliensis (left) about 10 days ago just to get more coverage to make up for the initial Utricularia Graminifolia losses. The jury is still out on the new stuff because it's too early to tell if they're establishing at this point. What's left of the original Utricularia Graminifolia continues slow growth, mostly at the roots. I also see a few new stems sprouting up here and there, but I'm still far from having a full carpet though. I'm at about 6 weeks since starting now, though it feels like 12 weeks.

Question: After than giving the newer 10 day old plants more time to establish, would it hurt anything to then submerse? At the rate it's going, I think it might be another 6 months before the Utricularia Graminifolia fills in completely.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle (Sep 22, 2015)

Looking good! nice to see this in now on the right track!


----------

