# Does any Substrate expires after a certain time???



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Define "expires".


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## JoraaÑ (Jun 29, 2009)

Wasserpest said:


> Define "expires".


To come to an end or Good until certain months/years etc....or will last over...

I am asking cause in my 75g with Aquasoil which is there for 4-5 years now, I don't see any growth at all....(everything remaining the same, co2, fert,w/c etc).


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I remember that plantbrain or somebody else posted some comparison shots using brand new and old (used) Aquasoil, and indeed, the plant growth was very different. Can't find the thread right now, perhaps someone else is better in searching.

Then there is this thread with some related discussion.

Aquasoil is somewhat soft, so over years of replanting and aquascaping it will turn to finer particles. It will also lose the initial charge of nutrients (N) over time. I wouldn't call it "expired", rather than "exhausted".

That's the reason I stick to "harder" substrates which don't provide the initial growth spurt, but last pretty much indefinitely with the infrequent addition of fertilizer sticks and such.


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## JoraaÑ (Jun 29, 2009)

I also tried searching the thread but can't find either.....Seriously thinking to change now to Turface as it is relatively cheaper but can't find any distributor near by me....sometime I hate to be in city!


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## Jadelin (Sep 30, 2009)

joraan said:


> I also tried searching the thread but can't find either.....Seriously thinking to change now to Turface as it is relatively cheaper but can't find any distributor near by me....sometime I hate to be in city!


Don't worry, they don't sell it anywhere at all in the western US, as far as I can tell. You're not alone.


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## dhavoc (May 4, 2006)

just had some shipped to me from johndeere in LA this week (Hawaii turface rep doesnt stock charcoal, and i would have had to buy a pallet of 40 bags to special order). goggle them, they stock it.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Turface is available at several places in the San Francisco Bay Area. 

Fine substrates with a high CEC can 'expire' if you are skimping on the fertilizer. Then the fertilizer is used right away by the plants, and they draw on the reserve in the substrate. If you follow a more generous fertilizer program then there is some give and take but the substrate remains rich in fertilizer.
So, in the sense that the substrate runs out of fertilizer, yes, it can 'expire' if you treat it wrong. 

The particles can break down. Aquasoils seem to break down relatively fast (few years). I have been using Soil Master Select (about the same as Turface) for several years now and there is no sign of the particles breaking down. Sands and gravels do not break down in the life of the aquarium, but they are not very good for growing plants. I have seen some tanks with Flourite that had been reused for at least 1 change in aquascape, and it (the Flourite) seemed intact. I do not know how old it was when the rescape was done, nor how long it lasted.


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## Jadelin (Sep 30, 2009)

Diana said:


> Turface is available at several places in the San Francisco Bay Area.


I stand corrected; apparently it's not sold anywhere in the Western US except California. As far as I know, they only sell it at Lesco (at least the hardware-type stores around here don't seem to carry it), and there aren't any near me! If you look at the map of their stores, it's kind of depressing (for Seattlites, anyway) http://lesco.com/prodcatalog/storefinder.aspx 
Makes you wonder what people around here use on their golf courses and ball fields!

My random comment has become a bit of threadjack. Sorry about that! :icon_neut


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## kingfisherfleshy (Jun 4, 2010)

I was just wondering the same thing today...I have eco-complete...its a year old.

I also had questions related to how you guys "maintain" your substrate. I had some plants go bad while co2 was offline for a week and a half...and as I was taking them out today, I decided the wisteria needed a trim too. After up-rooting all the old plants, and the wisteria the tank was a MESS. Now..about every other week I mix up the substrate with my hand...and siphon out as much of the crap as I can...but this was scary. Plus after pulling out the wisteria there are always tons of roots left in the substrate. What do you guys do to keep the substrate clean of massive dying root clumps and detritus...I have been thinking about tearing the tank down and rinsing the substrate...but I dont know. No experience here.


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

Jadelin said:


> I stand corrected; apparently it's not sold anywhere in the Western US except California. As far as I know, they only sell it at Lesco (at least the hardware-type stores around here don't seem to carry it), and there aren't any near me! If you look at the map of their stores, it's kind of depressing (for Seattlites, anyway) http://lesco.com/prodcatalog/storefinder.aspx
> Makes you wonder what people around here use on their golf courses and ball fields!
> 
> My random comment has become a bit of threadjack. Sorry about that! :icon_neut


Turface is sold by many companies and if you go to the Turface website you can search distrubtors based on zip code.

Craig


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

ADA aqua soil retains the nutrients over decade or more? But it does decline rapidly with respect to one element: nitrogen.

Tannins also decrease after a few months.
A little peat in the filter if you wish........

And add more KNO3, then the issue is resolved.

Some prefer adding N to the sediment again, so osmocoat or the Root medic tabs etc.

Up to you. there was no significant difference between every nutrient except N after 18 months of higher light.

So it should last longer than most aquascapes, as long as you account for the decline in N and dose KNO3/add ferts back to the sediment.

So it's pretty good stuff.
Most clay soils should behave this way.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## JoraaÑ (Jun 29, 2009)

TnX! Tom!


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

How old are you lights joraan? I find this the main culprit in lagging plant growth when ferts and co2 are stable.


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## Centromochlus (May 19, 2008)

I bought 150lbs of Turface here in Arizona at Ewing Irrigation about a week ago.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

I don't think Seattle needs irrigation. So no irrigation stores.


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## Jadelin (Sep 30, 2009)

Diana said:


> I don't think Seattle needs irrigation. So no irrigation stores.


Aah, it all makes sense now! 



AzFishKid said:


> I bought 150lbs of Turface here in Arizona at Ewing Irrigation about a week ago.


Well, it's nice to know that it IS available in the west . . . now I just need to actually find it in Seattle!


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## NJAquaBarren (Sep 16, 2009)

What does "expire" mean? Thought all substrates need fert/root tab suppliments eventually, so does Expire just mean when and how much augmentation, or do they really breakdown to the point of needing replacement?

I just used AS for the first time in a nano, in fact one of Tom's cubes. Find it a little nuisance to work with as it so light, but it did bring PH way down and soften the water a lot.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

AS is a pain in the regard that is is somewhat light but the rewards that can be reaped far outweigh the inconvenience in my book.


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## NJAquaBarren (Sep 16, 2009)

I agree. Like AS. Can't imagine altering water paramaters as much as easily. I do dread moving stuff though.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

bsmith said:


> AS is a pain in the regard that is is somewhat light but the rewards that can be reaped far outweigh the inconvenience in my book.


This is true for any enriched soil, clay, worm casting etc type sediment, ADA , Azoo, Up Aqua etc........

I deep vacuum these when I move or break down a tank, then add fresh back on top or mix in the rich layer, then cap.

This gets rid of most of the fines.
After some time, replanting tops and uprooting is not bad vs sand with the ADA AS.

It last maybe a decade also, except....for N, it's mostly NH4 that's available to plants initially, and this declines exponentially over time(I did for 18 months). So the first month is starts out real rich, then drops fast initially, then slower and slower.........

As long as you dose some KNO3, it should do pretty good, but dosing the full complement of say EI, will only extend the lifetime vs say going limited in the water column. Even with that, the N dropped considerably.
But, the good news is that none of the other nutrients hardly moved at all.

Perhaps it was simply the bacteria attacking the NH4 on the clay ADA As grains over time and converting it to NO3/removal by plants as well. Maybe some NO3-> N2 gas denitrification also? Not sure. Did not do that test.

So I think there are many running around claiming DIY soils, ADA As last only 1 year etc.........well, in respect to as N source, perhaps, but not the other nutrients, and resolving the N issue is easy as pie/cheap.

Dose some KNO3 which can be added to trace mix as well etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## NJAquaBarren (Sep 16, 2009)

Thanks Tom. So dose N fairly soon and AS will outlast any aquascape, maybe a decade especially if cleaning and mixing in some new with each re-scape.

Good and simple. Thanks as always.

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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I neglected my mini-m which has as II ammazonia as a substrate for at least 4 months. The only added elements if fertilization were co2 and some food for my shrimp. I can honestly say that the plants grew just as well in this time period as when I was adding flourish Fe, Flourish, and TPN+ to the tank. This AS was also over a year old too. So as tom has tested and experienced and I have just only experienced AS is almost good enough to "set it and forget it".


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Well, as far as nutrients: more light, more CO2, more plant biomass/faster growing species, no/less water column dosing, fewer fish/feedind etc.........will reduce the total nutrients in the sediment.

And a reduction in the list above will increase it.
You might still have growth, decent etc, but compared to real full nutrient non limiting ppm's, it might be a lot less growth than you think.

Still, once the tank has fully grown in, most want it to slow down and not be such a weedy burden growing too fast. This can be done with nutrients indirectly limiting growth, but less light would make everything easier including the grow in phase and the longer term care.

So either way, less light is among the best option to get more out of less.

If you want to test the reverse, the worse case scenario: then lots of light/CO2 and no water column dosing, plenty of weeds etc........then most aquariums will fall somewhere between these two relative extremes.
This makes a much better test than one tank or a typical aquarium if you want to compare results, this way you have two relative reference/control measures, an upper and lower bound.




Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## herns (May 6, 2008)

A 3 year old thread...good info on ADA AS.


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## Vermino (Jun 14, 2012)

herns said:


> A 3 year old thread...good info on ADA AS.


definitely agree

good resurrection because I was kind-of wondering this question myself lately


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## meppitech (Apr 29, 2011)

So the nutrients stay in tact very well, but what if you are using AS for the ph lowering qualities? Whats the time frame for that being exhausted? And we will say using remineralized ro water.


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## herns (May 6, 2008)

I was also wondering if frequent water changes decreases nutrients?


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