# ADA 90-P 'Forest Edge'



## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

Welp, the day has finally come to start my journal...I can't believe it's finally here!:bounce: Real, quick, I just want to thank: LeftC for all his help on co2, Jason Baliban for his amazing website, curtis (lyretailsaquarium.com) for all his help and all the hosts of others who wrote journals detailing there failures and successes. Journals of note: Mr JG's 40g, CL's original 48g, Surje's 120-p, and Unirdna's 90-P. But many more have inspired me.

My goal is to make a scape that is both objectively stunning and most importantly subjectively stunning as well and after hundreds of sketches while waiting for the money/equipment to accumulate, the 'Forest Edge' concept may be the winner. We'll see. 

Without further ado...the stand:









Dad and friend helping me with the Formica...









Finished product...









Finished product in the home...









Equipment:









Nova Extreme 4x39 watt (2xGeissman Aqua-flora & 2xGeissman Midday)
Marine Pinpoint Controller w/ PH probe
Filters: Eheim 2217 and Cascade 1000
Aquamedic Reactor 1000
CO2: Victor Reg with Sol, 20# Tank, Awesome Parker Needle Valve & JBJ Bubble Counter

Hydor Inline 300w heater
aquariumplant.com's ph probe inline holder
Dry Ferts

All that is needed is tank (about to be ordered), hardscape and substrate. 

Thanks again for all those who's proverbial milk I borrowed, hopefully the cheese at least will come from me. I hope this tank journal is as interesting as those I've read and please give me feedback as I set up and begin designing the hard scape.










The Plant List:
Rotala Rotundifolia
Microsorum pteropus
E. Tenellus
DHG
Hemianthus micranthemoides
Glossostigma
Fissidens Nobilis
Christmas Moss


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## Lycosa (Oct 16, 2006)

wow.. that stand looks great! Your list of hardware choices is pretty impressive too.. going to be a great setup.


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## TeamTeal (Mar 31, 2010)

looks like you have got it all together. the stand looks great


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## rushr (Jan 11, 2010)

I like the stand as well and the formica. It must make it scratch and water resistant (Thanks for the good idea ).

It seems like it'll be a cool tank. Can't wait to see the scape. :thumbs up:


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## dizzle 21 (Jul 8, 2010)

i love the stand looks just like JB's. i want to make one. what was the cost?


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

Dang, that stand is a plywood beast. Even the doors are 2 ply. Awesome job so far. Nice equipment too. I'm looking forward to seeing more progress


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

That thing is bombproof! No sleepless nights for you...Can't wait to see the 'scape!


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## Centromochlus (May 19, 2008)

xmas_one said:


> That thing is bombproof! No sleepless nights for you...Can't wait to see the 'scape!


That's what i need, a bombproof stand to put a pressurized co2 tank in. Maybe that'll convince my parents.

Great job with that stand. Is the formica hard to cut? I hear it's really sharp?


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> wow.. that stand looks great! Your list of hardware choices is pretty impressive too.. going to be a great setup.


Thanks! That comes from just taking a year and saving and learning without making purchases. I remember when I first started learning about planted tanks back in August I was sold out on the Red Sea Co2 system, lol. 



> looks like you have got it all together. the stand looks great


Thanks. Had tons of help too.



> i love the stand looks just like JB's. i want to make one. what was the cost?


The cost is substantial, especially when you consider that I borrowed my dad's tools so I didn't have to purchase those. ADA sells there version of this stand for $900 not including shipping. I used to think that price was ridiculous. Anyway check out Jason Baliban's website and search articles for more info about the stand.



> Dang, that stand is a plywood beast. Even the doors are 2 ply. Awesome job so far. Nice equipment too. I'm looking forward to seeing more progress


Yeah it's heavy as crap too. Thanks for the compliment, as I said I had tons of help. Unfortunately, even after I purchase the tank and substrate it's going to be while before I can get hardscape materials. 



> That thing is bombproof! No sleepless nights for you...Can't wait to see the 'scape!


Thanks!



> That's what i need, a bombproof stand to put a pressurized co2 tank in. Maybe that'll convince my parents.


Yeah, been reading about your co2 denial issues. Sorry about that bro.



> Great job with that stand. Is the formica hard to cut? I hear it's really sharp?


Thanks! It is very sharp...you must be careful when using it. It is easy to cut but you must have a router. 

If anyone is interested in purchasing a stand like this one (though probably better since I built the thing) the guy who helped me with the formica is a master cabinet maker and will build these ADA style cabinets for roughly $650. I said I'd advertise for him since he helped me as a favor to my dad. Just let me know...you'd have to work out shipping with him.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

Well, my 90-P came in last week and it's by far the most gorgeous tank I've ever owned. Just sitting there empty it's still beautiful...I find myself just staring at it :icon_eek: Anyway, had my birthday last Sunday so I've got some more money that I'm allowed to spend on this bad boy. I've got about $177 left after I had to make a custom glass shield for my nova extreme and filled my 20# tank for $31:icon_evil.

I still have to buy some clear tubing and some brackets for my ph probe holder and aquamedic reactor 1000. That should be cheap though. I'm debating on waiting a little longer...say a month and getting all me hardscape and substrate at once from various sites. As of right now i could only buy my substrate and part of my hardscape. For substrate I plan on using Aquasoil amazonia. For my tank it would take about $106 including shipping. So that's where I'm at and here are some pics...


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## deleted_user_6 (Jun 19, 2010)

How much did that parker NV set you back(if you don't mind me asking)?
What model is it?

Love the stand, and pretty much all the hardware too :biggrin: 
The stand looks pretty beefy underneath. Is it just me, or is that really thick plywood?


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> How much did that parker NV set you back(if you don't mind me asking)?
> What model is it?


It's a Parker Metering Valve and the part number is 2F-H3L-V-SS-TC and it has the most revolutions per turn (15) that I've seen on a needle valve. I paid around $80 for it since the ideal one on Rex's website was $72 and this one is a little prettier, more revolutions and stainless. Plus, unlike most other needle valves, this claims it can hold direst tank pressure (though I'm not going to see if they are right). :icon_smil



> Love the stand, and pretty much all the hardware too :biggrin:
> The stand looks pretty beefy underneath. Is it just me, or is that really thick plywood?


Thanks! It's actually 3/4" plywood that's been double plied with water proof wood glue and screws. I live in a 2nd floor apartment so I decided to take no chances.


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## zeldar (Jun 24, 2009)

Very nice setup you got started. That stand really is sweet. If this is your first planted tank, you sure know how to start with a bang. Most of us start with a 10gallon and neon colored gravel. haha

What do you plan to do with your hardscape? From the sound of "Forest Edge" and the tanks you listed as inspiration, I would guess a driftwood setup. 

PS- love the picture of all the guys standing around, drinkin beer and workin in the woodshop. Thats a manly picture if I've ever seen one.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> Very nice setup you got started. That stand really is sweet. If this is your first planted tank, you sure know how to start with a bang. Most of us start with a 10gallon and neon colored gravel. haha
> 
> What do you plan to do with your hardscape? From the sound of "Forest Edge" and the tanks you listed as inspiration, I would guess a driftwood setup.
> 
> PS- love the picture of all the guys standing around, drinkin beer and workin in the woodshop. Thats a manly picture if I've ever seen one.


Thanks Zeldar, since my wife and I made a commitment to stay debt free I've had to simply save and save and save, which has afforded me time to pour over various equipment reviews, articles, forums and journals until I saved up enough. It was quite an interesting evolution. 

My goal with this tank is to compete. I have a concept I've drawn many times and it too has evolved. Here's an earlier drawing that I sent to Steve Lo of aquaforestaquarium.com to give him an idea of the stone sizes I wanted:












> PS- love the picture of all the guys standing around, drinkin beer and workin in the woodshop. Thats a manly picture if I've ever seen one.


Those guys helped me tons with the stand that took me like 40 hours of solid work over the course of 4 months.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

Here's a pic of the setup inside the cabinet:










I also might have a problem. I have seen some DIY scapers hang a light inches above the stand in order to increase the light spread over the bottom of the tank. But my nova exteme 4 x 39" is so narrow that even haning it might not be enough:










So should I just get another light to sit on top of the front part of the tank (which I don't mind too much even though it sort of defeats the purpose of a rimless tank) or if I raise it a few inches would it be adequate?

Thanks guys for your input.

One other thing. I just ordered my substrate: 3 bags of Amazonia and one small bag of Orinoco sand I believe.









So my Aquasoil Amazonia arrived today and it was bittersweet. Although this marks a major milestone in the progress of getting this setup ready for competing, I have another waiting game before I get the hardscape materials. So in the bags it will stay for about a month or two until my spending money builds back up again. I don't mind the wait too much though. It will afford me more time to learn and hone my layout and hopefully make this a smooth first planted tank. Thanks for your comments and for bearing with me on the slow progression.


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

4x39W will be more than enough spread, even when placed on the tank like you have it. I have the GLA version of the 90P and a 4x39W T5HO as well. I do have it raised, but that's because I needed to reduce the light intensity.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> 4x39W will be more than enough spread, even when placed on the tank like you have it. I have the GLA version of the 90P and a 4x39W T5HO as well. I do have it raised, but that's because I needed to reduce the light intensity.


That's good to hear and thanks for responding. So would you recommend that I build a conduit hanger anyway to lower the intensity of the light?


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## tcampbell (Jun 8, 2006)

It is always useful to have the light hung. It gives you more options down the road to adjust the intensity in accordance with plant growth rates and denisity.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

Got it thanks, september's discretionary spending will go towards some driftwood for the harscape and a conduit light hanger.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

Here's a new draft of what I'm going for with the "Forest's Edge" concept. I don't know if it's clear or not but what do you guys think? Any obvious design flaws? 









I'm trying to bring the "edge" of the forest further along towards the back left of the tank so that it's not so segmented (or cut in half). I want the rock in front along with a red plant in the back to be the focal point thus obeying the 2.168 rule which would be about 13.74" according to my 36" long tank. I am planning on using "ADA Black River Stone" for my rock and getting driftwood that "leans" over the stream I'm creating with ADA Orinoco sand. Any feedback appreciated.

I also plan on using various moss and crypts to give it that "Old Forest" look.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Any updates on this one? I am really hoping you are still planning on this tank, I am excited by your drawing.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

Wow, it has been a while since my last post. It's encouraging to see that there's been some interest in this scape. The good news is that there has been some significant progress made piecing this together. I have purchased my driftwood and rock and man let me tell you, when I have enough time I'm going to properly thank Rod or "dsdrifter" for his generosity and class. All my driftwood and rock came from him so if you like what you see, check him out @ thedriftwoodstore.com. Anyway, I'm still sticking to my forest edge concept with possible some minor tweaks. I've got a friend coming over tomorrow and we are going to put down the aquasoil and play around with the hardscape and try to get perfect. Since the purpose behind this is to compete, I may still wait on filling with water until I get exactly what I want with the scape. But without further ado, the pics:

Here's some shots of the driftwood in the tank. A black vinyl has been applied and I have built a light stand out of plumbing pipe. 


















the rocks...









I'll be posting pics over the weekend and in the ensuing weeks as I get the plants. Please be ready to give feedback on our hardscapes!!! Pics will be coming soon!!


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## Loubard (Dec 16, 2005)

I am going to following this. Initial setup looks good!


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

That big piece of wood on the right is awesome, but it's going to make planting very difficult.


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## OoglyBoogly (Oct 19, 2010)

HURRY UP!

Heh Just kidding. Great work with keeping a log of your progress and it's great that you are taking your time reading/learning and acquiring equipment. I started reading about making my own T5 HO light hood and had the CC out ready to buy 3x ballasts each able to drive 2x T5 54w 48" lights which I think would be overkill for my cheesy tank that doesn't use CO2. I just want to build things haha! I'll be keeping an eye on your nice setup.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

Ok, so we hit a snag. We decided to go with the smooth darker rock and we only had three pieces we really liked. So...for now this is what we got. We'll hopefully get some more rock from dsdrifter soon. Thanks for the feedback...keep it coming! 

With one bag of ADA aquasoil and some hardscape, we'll probably be sticking with the wood the way it is just because i'm committed to the "Forest Edge" concept. What I really need help with are the stone placements, so, please fire away on the comments.





















> I am going to following this. Initial setup looks good!


Thanks for subscribing! Feedback welcome!



> That big piece of wood on the right is awesome, but it's going to make planting very difficult.


Thanks I like it too. I don't understand why it would make planting difficult but maybe you can enlighten me. I've put in an angled photo so that may give you a better angle of that big awesome piece.


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## SearunSimpson (Jun 5, 2007)

Sick set up you got started there! I'm not sure if you were wanting to put moss on the wood or not, but I usually find it easier to do before placement of the wood- especially on really branchy pieces. 
Maybe some needle-leaf would look good back there?


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## gringostar9 (Oct 11, 2010)

Looks great. Can't wait to see more pictures.


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## rickztahone (Jul 20, 2009)

great progress! i really like the wood pieces. subscribed!


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

I would place the rocks more on the left to help balance the strong right.following along


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## rickztahone (Jul 20, 2009)

problemman said:


> I would place the rocks more on the left to help balance the strong right.following along


now that you pointed that out you are right. i think if you pulled that rock that is closest to the middle (left side) and put it all the way to the left at the base of that wood piece it would look awesome.


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

I really think the largest rock should be there and then cascade with the heights


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> Sick set up you got started there! I'm not sure if you were wanting to put moss on the wood or not, but I usually find it easier to do before placement of the wood- especially on really branchy pieces.
> Maybe some needle-leaf would look good back there?


Great suggestion and thanks for the complement. I might just wait to finalize the hardscape until after the plants get here so that I can connect moss and ferns to the driftwood easier. And yes, I'm definitely going for that "thicket" look on the right so needle leaf java fern will be involved.


> Looks great. Can't wait to see more pictures.


Thanks! Pics will be coming in a couple of weeks...this is a slow meticulous endeavor. 



> great progress! i really like the wood pieces. subscribed!


Thanks...I highly recommend dsdrifter for similar pieces. Thanks for subscribing!



> I would place the rocks more on the left to help balance the strong right.following along


Yes I agree, that's due to the shortage of rock I mentioned earlier. I'm hoping to score on some pieces like the rock in the front.



> now that you pointed that out you are right. i think if you pulled that rock that is closest to the middle (left side) and put it all the way to the left at the base of that wood piece it would look awesome.


See above comment...thanks for he feedback!



> I really think the largest rick should be there and then cascade with the heights


I don't understand your feedback.


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

Read it again lol


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

Where's "there"? In the middle where the medium sized rock is? I think the larger rock would look out of place being in the front but I may play around with it and try it there. It could give it scale...


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## R33 GTR (Mar 13, 2009)

Damm that aquascape looks awsome looking foward to see it finish


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> Damm that aquascape looks awsome looking foward to see it finish


Thanks man...I've read your posts on other's journals and your always encouraging. I'm about to get some more stone then it will be a few more weeks until I plant. I'll post pics of the rocks in the scape when I get them.


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## malaybiswas (Nov 2, 2008)

Setup looks great so far. As per ur last sketch guess you r planning on c. Helferi on left? Won't they be a little to tall for the edge concept you are creating?

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> As per ur last sketch guess you r planning on c. Helferi on left?


 Is this another name for GHG? I'm thinking about using some of that tall wispy grass on the far back left and right to lean over the void. The void space that you can see on my sketch is to simulate the stream valley going off into the distance.


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## VadimShevchuk (Sep 19, 2009)

Beautiful set up. Where do you get the separators for the substrate?


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> Beautiful set up. Where do you get the separators for the substrate?


From Lowes, I just had them cut some plexi-glass sheets the right length.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Ahem. Updates? I am really itching to see this tank develop. That stand is sweet, by the way.


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## SkyGrl (Jan 7, 2010)

lol yeah updates.. we are a demanding crowd here on TPT!

Amy


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

Yea, I wish so badly I had updates, but my rock supplier has fallen off the face of the earth. He's agreed to sponser my tank which is great news because his supplies some of the most beautiful rock I've ever seen but it's been three weeks and no word from him. If it continues I'll have to go the ADA route for my rock which I think has less potential than this guys stuff and which is why I'm giving him as much time as I can for him to return my e-mails/texts. Thanks again though for your interest in this project, you probably know how encouraging it is when people ask for updates. I will be waiting one more week for him to get back to me and then post what ADA rock I will go with which may have to include a rescape.


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## rickztahone (Jul 20, 2009)

i thought i had replied to this thread...anyways, i wanted an update as well. I have been subscribed since you started it


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

So sad about the rocks.  I am staying subscribed, as I know this will be lovely regardless of what rocks you go with.


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## OoglyBoogly (Oct 19, 2010)

Weekly updates take the edge off of waiting 

it's sunday... my email has beckoned me here... WHERE ARE THE PICS?! 

j/k

Waiting for people is the worst when you really want to finish a project and you're at the point where you need to wait for someone because you're at the point in the project where the steps are now linear and you can't just do something else in the meantime to keep things moving along.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> i thought i had replied to this thread...anyways, i wanted an update as well. I have been subscribed since you started it


Thanks, I hope you enjoy the journey.



> So sad about the rocks.  I am staying subscribed, as I know this will be lovely regardless of what rocks you go with.


Thanks for your kind words as usual. 



> Weekly updates take the edge off of waiting
> 
> it's sunday... my email has beckoned me here... WHERE ARE THE PICS?!
> 
> ...


They're coming soon I promise!! 

So Great news!!! I got in touch with my rock guy and he's sending my package out tomorrow which means it will get here by the latest Friday! I'm so glad for the wait because I've used the last 2 months of just looking at this hardscape and at some of my favorite scapes (including the AGA's 2010 contestants) and making plans for this rock that's coming. Since August 2009 I've been planning this tank and a few more months isn't a big deal. It's allowed me to keep this hobby a hobby and not an obsession. Anyway, it's more river rock that's on its way of a very chocolaty, smooth, but has a lot of character.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

This tank is one that really inspired me.

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/Img2010/View/296.jpg


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

Whee did you find that pic I'm looking for inspiration for my tank


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> Whee did you find that pic I'm looking for inspiration for my tank


Google AGA Aquascaping Contest 2010


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## gbose (Nov 21, 2010)

That is a great-looking tank! can't wait to see the final !

GB


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

Rocks came in!!! SO I have some scapes I would like you to vote on and/or tell me your thoughts on...

Here are three pics and know that the rocks are a little chaotic as I have to figure out the placement of the driftwood before I can finalize it. Where the little sticky note is, that's where a stream bed complete with ADA's Orinoco sand will be. 

First Pic: (Small and Medium pieces)









Second Pic: (Small and Large pieces)









Third Pic: All three pieces









Please let me know what you think and thanks for checking out my journal!

-Dan


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## rickztahone (Jul 20, 2009)

i personally like 2. the 3rd one looks a little to chaotic and busy IMHO


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## 10gallonplanted (Oct 31, 2010)

I like two too.


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## JamesHockey (Nov 10, 2010)

^^^^^^^^ 22222222 or move the med to the left and the small to front left and large on right and take a pic


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

I vote for number two, but that last piece is far too nice to leave out, so I would put it on the left side (maybe move the smaller piece thats on the left side now forward some and put the other piece behind it)
Or maybe take the smaller piece that's on the left side and put it in front of the large piece on the right, then take the last piece (the middle sized one) and put it on the left. 
Just some ideas.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

Hey guys thanks for the advice! I don't think I'll be moving he piece on the left though I can understand why you'd want to do that. I'm getting that people are liking #2 most so I included another picture with all three and the largest piece is in the front with the medium piece behind it. I think this scape creates depth but we'll see. Please tell me your thoughts. Thanks! And I hope to get this puppy up and running this next week.


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

I personally like #1 idk why I just feel the 2nd picture looks to dominating for the tank


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## cblwry (Sep 15, 2010)

I was looking for DIY stands and came across your journal. Absolutley awesome setup!!! I like the fact that you hung the light instead of letting it sit on the tank. The scape looks great. Can't wait to see it evolve. subscribed.


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

Dan the Man said:


> Google AGA Aquascaping Contest 2010


That site is what got me here, LOL! 

Love you scape. Can't wait to see what comes of it . . .


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## defiesexistence (Sep 13, 2010)

Either put both the small and medium in the back left corner (maybe with the medium to the right of the small), with the large in the front like you had it, or switch the large and medium pieces, so the medium is in the front. Or, if you have enough room, put the medium to the left of the large piece on the right side.

Just some ideas to dabble with, but I love all the stone work! IT'S SO PRETTY! That will be an awesome Forest's Edge.


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## rountreesj (Jun 12, 2007)

how about moving the big one to the back right
the smaller the the front left and the medium to the back left. I think many of the scapes are too filled with wood. remember plants will fill in a lot and to create a field of depth you don't want to hide the smaller ones on the back
bring them up front, and leave the larger in the back


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> I was looking for DIY stands and came across your journal. Absolutley awesome setup!!! I like the fact that you hung the light instead of letting it sit on the tank. The scape looks great. Can't wait to see it evolve. subscribed.


Thanks a lot, it was fun doing all that and I learned a lot.




> That site is what got me here, LOL!
> 
> Love you scape. Can't wait to see what comes of it . . .


Thanks, yeah that sight has given me tons of inspiration over the last year 
and a half.



> Either put both the small and medium in the back left corner (maybe with the medium to the right of the small), with the large in the front like you had it, or switch the large and medium pieces, so the medium is in the front. Or, if you have enough room, put the medium to the left of the large piece on the right side.
> 
> Just some ideas to dabble with, but I love all the stone work! IT'S SO PRETTY! That will be an awesome Forest's Edge.


I think i understand what your saying but I believe the whole back ground would be wood and I want some negative space. Also, one of your ideas sounds like the third pic I believe where I use all three. The medium piece is in front of the large piece on the right and the small piece is on the left.
Thanks for the compliments on the rocks! I had to wait over a month for those thangs!


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> how about moving the big one to the back right
> the smaller the the front left and the medium to the back left. I think many of the scapes are too filled with wood. remember plants will fill in a lot and to create a field of depth you don't want to hide the smaller ones on the back
> bring them up front, and leave the larger in the back


Yeah I agree on scapes being filled with too much hardscape. I definitely want to avoid a big blob of green that doesn't allow the viewer "into" the scape. Here's the only thing. I do want to create a sort of "forest edge" on the right with a thicket feel. On the left, if I bring the small piece forward, then my "meadow" affect with be hurt by the small piece obstructing the view (maybe). Now the slope could allow the viewer to see the meadow behind the small piece but if I have the medium behind it I essentially loose my "meadow" affect. I want the pieces on the right to be mostly "thicketed" and the spindly branches to be mostly bare except for a few that will be mossed. My hope is that the viewer will be drawn first to a stream bed with over hanging branches. Maybe I need to get better driftwood


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## rountreesj (Jun 12, 2007)

why not do a forest edge across the entire back and make the meadow in the front on both sides of the river. and by placing something in the "meadow" like driftwood, it will break the flatness, and move your eyes around some...


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## defiesexistence (Sep 13, 2010)

Yeah, pardon, that was really confusing. I can hardly understand what I wrote, looking back now. Disregard it.

Aha! Overhanging branches. I understand now. For the overhanging branches, you've got some nice driftwood. Don't get better ones. It's your tank, and it'll look incredible whichever way you keep it. If a tank is perfect in everyone's eyes but yours, it'll drive you crazy. It's for your enjoyment; make it how you want. That said, which of your options are you leaning toward?


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> why not do a forest edge across the entire back and make the meadow in the front on both sides of the river. and by placing something in the "meadow" like driftwood, it will break the flatness, and move your eyes around some...


That sounds good but these pieces of driftwood are just to big to relegate to the back and they are angled which means if I put them in the back and angled them towards the front, the largest piece would be almost touching the front pane, the others are so narrow that there would be big gaps in the "thicket" towards the back. The only way I could effectively change the edge to be in the back instead of the side is to order different driftwood that I can see. Thanks though Justin as I value a lot your opinion as I have enjoys multiple scapes you've created.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> Aha! Overhanging branches. I understand now. For the overhanging branches, you've got some nice driftwood. Don't get better ones. It's your tank, and it'll look incredible whichever way you keep it. If a tank is perfect in everyone's eyes but yours, it'll drive you crazy. It's for your enjoyment; make it how you want. That said, which of your options are you leaning toward?


Thanks Def, it's good to be reminded of that. It's true that even if everyone loves something but I don't I'll go crazy. One of my goals with scape is to compete and so the aesthetic beauty has to be both subjective and objective. As far as my own favorite, I think I'm still leaning towards all three pieces mostly because I want to adhere to the "thicket" idea of forest edge, it's hard to let something you've been dreaming of for over 1 and 1/2 years to die. But more than that my desire is to place in the AGA aquascaping contest, so I believe I'm willing to move things around. I'd rather get things as good as I can get them before I fill the tank and have to live with it for a year.


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## rountreesj (Jun 12, 2007)

Definitely, follow the advice of doing what you want, HOWEVER, personally i find that tanks with a sudden break seem unnatural. I think the large piece looks incredible, and if stems were allowed to grow behind it, and then hang over a little, it would appear like a forest. and quite natural , because it will be at a different direction... and on the other side some stems from behind the other driftwood doing the same thing will also give the same appearance and on a smaller scale, keeping things natural looking...

I suppose it's difficult for you to see what i am imagining...

the pieces look cool, and your possibilities are endless


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## rountreesj (Jun 12, 2007)

the second or third pics are DEFINITELY MY FAVORITE btw...


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## celine (Nov 19, 2010)

i like the first one. i feel like the large piece of wood leans to the left a bit much, and it sort of looks like an optical illusion, like it's making the tank lean, haha.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> Definitely, follow the advice of doing what you want, HOWEVER, personally i find that tanks with a sudden break seem unnatural. I think the large piece looks incredible, and if stems were allowed to grow behind it, and then hang over a little, it would appear like a forest. and quite natural , because it will be at a different direction... and on the other side some stems from behind the other driftwood doing the same thing will also give the same appearance and on a smaller scale, keeping things natural looking...
> 
> I suppose it's difficult for you to see what i am imagining...
> 
> the pieces look cool, and your possibilities are endless


Yes that's exactly what I want to do. I was thinking (with the big piece in the back) that I could plant in it some needle leaf java and behind it some bacopa carolina or altanera reinecki sp? or some other kind of plant that can help give it that thicket feel. I also want to plant some nam' all around the base of the thicket intermingling it with nana petit and taiwan moss. I want to moss up the branches but not much. I don't want their beauty to be covered up. the left side if the tank with be a meadow running into a stream bed with the forest or thicket on the other side. The scape was always going to be "abrupt" but i think the smaller piece on the left will break up the segmented look, or that's what I'm hoping. And yes the little piece with also have stems behind it. Whatever I choose to plant on the right, I will try and mirror the main plants on the left. I was also thinking of using arugula. Thanks for your thoughts Justin? and please keep them coming.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> i like the first one. i feel like the large piece of wood leans to the left a bit much, and it sort of looks like an optical illusion, like it's making the tank lean, haha.


Yeah, I'm hoping that once the plants really fill in the only real exposed part of that big piece will be part of the trunk and some exposed "fingers". Thanks for the feedback and please keep it coming.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

So after much much internal debate and turmoil, I think I've singles out a scape I'm comfortable with. Now ofcourse I'm going to sit on it a while but I think this scape makes the most of what I got yet still allows me to do some neat things with the viewer's eyes. Here's the evolution of this scape:










So here I tried three pieces again but as mentioned before it just seemed too busy and I couldn't get excited about it.










Here's one with just the small and medium size piece but I felt the right side of the tank needed something, something I don't have. I like the look of these two pieces together especially since they were cut from the same root tangle but just didn't like the emptiness of the tank.










Same thing but on the other side. Still same emptiness. 










Finally one last effort with all three. I liked the thicket feel of it but again I just felt it was too busy. So finally after much thought and consideration and just being ready to put something in I'm leaning towards this. In fact, I've already pretty much finished my rock work on the right. So tell me what you think!?










So there's still some adjusting of the slope on the left and some on the rock work but by and large I think this scape has the most potential. Remember, orinoco sand will be poured into the stream bed when the rest of the scape is finalized. I can't wait to clean the glass off too!


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

One other thing I'd like to point out is that I was really wanting to have some branches or fallen tree-like things in my "meadow" but I just don't have any driftwood pieces to put there, so what I did was bent the long "wispy" piece to the ground and hopefully as the glosso/DHG grows around and among it the fallen branch look will have been achieved.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

And now with sand!!!


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

Looks great!


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## Coltonorr (Mar 12, 2008)

Wow! Very Nice!
Looking forward to seeing this develop.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

After some tweaking, I've grown more and more in love with this scape idea, no longer a "forest edge" per se, still something I think will develop well. Thanks guys so much for your help!










Also, once I put a good amount of plants and fill it for the first time, should I dose full ferts? I know that as lighting goes, most recommend a stunted photo period. I was thinking maybe 4-5 hours a day for the first week. Any recommendations on photo period and for how many weeks? Thanks and stay tuned for the evolution. I think it will be exciting!


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## Chrisinator (Jun 5, 2008)

That is pretty awesome!


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> Looks great!


Thanks Prob, I like your high tech 75 too. 



> Wow! Very Nice!
> Looking forward to seeing this develop.


Thanks! ME TOO!!!



> That is pretty awesome!


Thanks! Any thoughts on my ferts/lighting questions?


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## rickztahone (Jul 20, 2009)

yay! i really liked the 2nd one and it seems you went with it. This scape has great character. I'm very new to the hobby and when i fully planted my tanks i used a lot of plants and kept the photoperiod at 8hrs from the start and had my co2 at full blast at around 3-4 bps.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> yay! i really liked the 2nd one and it seems you went with it. This scape has great character. I'm very new to the hobby and when i fully planted my tanks i used a lot of plants and kept the photoperiod at 8hrs from the start and had my co2 at full blast at around 3-4 bps.


Thanks Rick, and thanks for the tips...CO2 full blast and a full 8/9 hour photo period.



> Not sure if this helps, but Amano uses carbon filtration initially to help reduce the amount of nutrients leeching out. This is supposed to help with the filters trying to cycle. He eventually replaces NA carbon with Bio Rio or something else.





> Oh, and I wouldn't do 4-5 hour lighting period. Plants wouldn't be able to photosynthesize long enough to utilize all the leeching ammonia and CO2. That would be a real cause for algae. AFA's typed handout mentioned having frequent water changes daily for about the first week concerning ADA Aquasoil. Whatever you decide to do, you have an awesome journal ahead of you


Thanks agent, preciate the vote of confidence. I have carbon in my Cascade 1000. Hopefully that will be enough. One question would be that if I only have plants in my tank, should I even care about the ammonia. Don't plants like ammonia? Or is it to cut down on the algae bloom?

And roger that on the full photo period. Thanks.


Question


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> Oh, and I wouldn't do 4-5 hour lighting period. Plants wouldn't be able to photosynthesize long enough to utilize all the leeching ammonia and CO2. That would be a real cause for algae. AFA's typed handout mentioned having frequent water changes daily for about the first week concerning ADA Aquasoil. Whatever you decide to do, you have an awesome journal ahead of you


So after the first week of daily water changes I should start to dose full ferts then?


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

I would start slow to see when enough is just enough...


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

Thanks agent, I read through that whole article but I didn't see anything addressing when to start dosing ferts. I definitely learned a lot about water changes and other tips during a tanks initial period.


> During the initial period after an aquarium is first set up when nutrients such as nitrogen can easily leach into the water from the substrate, frequent water changes at the rate of two to three times a week may be necessary. Once aquatic plants grow densely and start taking up nutrients actively, it is alright to reduce the frequency of the water changes to about once a week.


So while the plants are becoming dense I shouldn't need to dose ferts? When I start going to one water change a week is when I dose them?


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

If you're planning on doing EI dosing, I would just go at it from the get go. EI is basically overdosing the tank anyways right? and the weekly water change (in your case, probably more) will reset the fert levels anyhow. Might as well give your plants a fighting chance.

From what I've read from Tom Barr's stuff, fert levels never cause algae, it's light and co2 issues.


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## Wingsdlc (Dec 9, 2005)

A person from our fish club kills java moss by keeping her tanks too clean. I don't think the plants are getting what they need.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> If you're planning on doing EI dosing, I would just go at it from the get go. EI is basically overdosing the tank anyways right? and the weekly water change (in your case, probably more) will reset the fert levels anyhow. Might as well give your plants a fighting chance.
> 
> From what I've read from Tom Barr's stuff, fert levels never cause algae, it's light and co2 issues.


Low oxygen levels and high organic content can also contribute to algae. Refer to this blog here: http://www.aquariumalgae.blogspot.com/

If you're into who endorses what, Tom Barr has mentioned that this is a good article to read on algae prevention.

Think about it; low oxygen levels hurt the aerobic bacteria that convert ammonia waste. High organic buildup means more bacteria will try to convert dead leaves, waste, etc but will cause higher demand for oxygen. This can cause a drop in O2 levels, hurt bacteria which leads to poor Ammonia conversion, and will subsequently encourage algae growth.



> You're ok to dose NPK and Micros using EI method, but just remember that EI method is about making water changes weekly, NOT daily. So do your frequent water changes and dose accordingly until your Ammonia and Nitrite readings are at zero ppm. Then you can start EI dosing with just one water change a week. Hope that makes sense.


Thanks guys, while I do have bags of dry ferts, I went ahead and bought some lightly dispensed pfertz brand ferts which recommend 1 squirt per 10 gallons. Obviously this is based on a once a week water change regimen. I agree that dosing EI would probably be a little wasteful if I don't need to due the frequent water changes. What would happen if I didn't add any ferts to the tank for a few weeks. Disaster? Is this just a wasteful time in a tanks life fertwize? Thanks for your'alls help!


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

If you don't add ferts your plants will start to die and then algae sets in. if you keep ferts going and good water circulation for the plants to get to all the nutrients then you will be fine.make sure you keep the filter un clogged and cleaned if debries the plants will grow and use up the nutrients.if you use alot of ferts the water change sets everything back to normal thus keeping it balanced....does that make sense?


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

agentkhiem said:


> Just a minor note; you can STILL get algae even if you aggressively fertilize his tank during the first few weeks. It's because of these factors taken from the article I linked:
> 
> 1. Low Oxygen level
> 2. Insufficient water circulation
> ...


So I missed #4


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## Zareth (Dec 13, 2010)

Dan the Man said:


> Hey guys thanks for the advice! I don't think I'll be moving he piece on the left though I can understand why you'd want to do that. I'm getting that people are liking #2 most so I included another picture with all three and the largest piece is in the front with the medium piece behind it. I think this scape creates depth but we'll see. Please tell me your thoughts. Thanks! And I hope to get this puppy up and running this next week.


I think it would look good if you put the big rock where the big driftwood is, more the big driftwood where the medium driftwood is, and move the medium driftwood where the big rock is.

edit: i see you've already decided on a scape, woops. 
At any rate, a stunted photo period wont cause algae.
Plants love Ammonia. 
Start with a 6 hour light cycle and increase it by 2 hours a week, if you see algae cut back one hour. 
As long as you aren't putting any fish in there for a bit you can crank up the co2 and hopefully avoid algae.
With AS you shouldn't have to dose anything for the first 2-4 weeks depending on how high your light is.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> Just a minor note; you can STILL get algae even if you aggressively fertilize his tank during the first few weeks. It's because of these factors taken from the article I linked:
> 
> 1. Low Oxygen level
> 2. Insufficient water circulation
> ...


Gotcha, so I will keep all those in mind...

1) I have spray bars so hopefully I can aim them in such a way to cause sufficient surface disturbance for more oxygenated water.
2) I have an eheim 2217 and a cascade 1000, should be sufficient.
3) I guess water changes would be the only way to tackle this?
4) Just takes time I think.

As for fertz, I will dose them fully even though I will be doing mad water changes. Thanks problemman and Agent!




> This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 1024x768.
> I think it would look good if you put the big rock where the big driftwood is, more the big driftwood where the medium driftwood is, and move the medium driftwood where the big rock is.


Actually on page six I believe I've decided on the final scape but thanks for your input!


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

New Updated Scape...thoughts? (compared to my last scapes). 

OLD SCAPE









NEW SCAPE









What i did was take the big stone and put it with the small piece of driftwood. I then took the large piece and pushed it towards the background. I think this keeps the large piece from garishly sticking out since it was half way between the foreground and background.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

I have to bump this because my plants are arriving on Friday. Need to finalize this.


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## rickztahone (Jul 20, 2009)

Dan the Man said:


> New Updated Scape...thoughts? (compared to my last scapes).
> 
> OLD SCAPE
> 
> ...


looks great! what plants do you have coming in?


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

Glosso, DHG, Rotala Rotundifolia, Xmas moss, needle leaf java fern, anubias nana petite, possibly E. tenellus, and possible HM. Would love some ludwigia brevipes but no one has any.


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## rickztahone (Jul 20, 2009)

Dan the Man said:


> Glosso, DHG, Rotala Rotundifolia, Xmas moss, needle leaf java fern, anubias nana petite, possibly E. tenellus, and possible HM. Would love some ludwigia brevipes but no one has any.


i think i just saw someone post some on SCAPE. let me check and if so then i'll ask them if they'll ship to you.


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## rickztahone (Jul 20, 2009)

no, sry, it was Ludwigia Peruensis. Free too.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

Aw thanks man, I appreciate it. Actually after my $158 plant order I'm broke.  Shipping in cold times of the year makes me do next day air which makes up half of the price of these orders! I'm happy though, this has been 19 months in the making, saving and scraping up all my dough for the best equipment/tank etc. 

Question though, what's the best way to lay/plant x-mas moss on some rocks? Is it just a matter of tying it down and if so what kind of thread do you use?


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## rickztahone (Jul 20, 2009)

Dan the Man said:


> Aw thanks man, I appreciate it. Actually after my $158 plant order I'm broke.  Shipping in cold times of the year makes me do next day air which makes up half of the price of these orders! I'm happy though, this has been 19 months in the making, saving and scraping up all my dough for the best equipment/tank etc.
> 
> Question though, what's the best way to lay/plant x-mas moss on some rocks? Is it just a matter of tying it down and if so what kind of thread do you use?


a lot of people do it with fishing line which i have never tried. Personally i have just used regular sowing string and it has worked great for me. You call also use super glue.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

So the tank has been filled and what an experience. First, I ordered 3 different shipments of plants from 3 different suppliers, one being my LFS. Well, one of the online stores called me and told me even though they advertised having some moss, they really didn't and would wait till they got a shipment in before they sent the rest of the order with the moss, which I didn't mind because it was a minor order. Then, I received my order from the other online retailer and they just subbed one plant for another without telling me. Just didn't have it even though online they said they did. But I was like, hey, i can order it later and the other plants were in good shape. Then, the same day, my plant order arrived in my LFS and their supplier thought glosso was HC...LOL and my anubias nana petite's were freezer burned, thankfully the LFS didn't charge me for them but just gave these 3 clumps of green mush. So even though the invoice show 3 pots of glosso, they sent 3 lava rocks with HC on it and thought it was glosso. Even the owner of the fish store thought it was HM. So, at that point I was pretty deflated. After a year and a half, I had hyped up this moment in my mind so so much. Glosso was going to be the main foreground plant in my scheme. So I have a tank filled with about half the plant species I ordered and no foreground plant...yet. Glosso's on the way. Then, the driftwood that was pledged not to float or release tannins did BIG time! It almost uprooted all my plants when the pieces started to drift up!!! Then, my new PH probe holder from aquariumplants.com leaked like crazy so I had to take it out of the plumbing which was a huge wet mess because I forgot about the ball-valves in the holder so it just sprayed for like 3 secs which is a long time. So with all that I finally have settled down and have done one 60% water change. Man what a freekin nightmarish Friday! The crap we have to put up with to enjoy this hobby eh?

Day 2...









P.S. So the rock awkwardly place on the left and right pieces of driftwood is to weight it down. The plants in the back left and right is Rotala Rotundifolia, there's DHG around the base of the big left rock and the small rocks at the base of the large piece of driftwood. There's HM in the back center and right mid-ground and then the random replacement plant of parva on the left foreground. And all the empty area is for the glosso.


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

What a day for you! I would be do irritated


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## Armonious (Aug 16, 2010)

Good luck with setting up the scape. Seems like you've run into abit of bad luck.

From whatI have read, and will hopefully soon experience, Purigen or activated carbon really helps with tannins from driftwood or aquasoil. 

Keep on keeping on, it will be worth it in the end.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> Good luck with setting up the scape. Seems like you've run into abit of bad luck.
> 
> From whatI have read, and will hopefully soon experience, Purigen or activated carbon really helps with tannins from driftwood or aquasoil.
> 
> Keep on keeping on, it will be worth it in the end.


Yeah I know about purigen and Activated Carbon, but I have suspicions that these logs won't leech long. Thanks for the encouragement though, and I am excited about the future of this scape.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

How long will a batch of purigen and carbon last on a new leeching tank? Is it really worth it or can I just wait it out?


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

Yeah I guess I just prefer to wait a little while. Hobby money's in short supply so I'll spend it on necessities. I did about a 60% water change and I think the tannins are on the decrease already. We'll see, on another note, can I over CO2 my tank when there's just plants in it?


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

But I thought CO2 and O2 didn't occupy the same space or in other words, compete for saturation...but that doesn't really make sense to me.


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## Buff Daddy (Oct 19, 2010)

Dan, I just wanted to say how much I've enjoyed this journal of yours. It makes me want to post my photo log of the 75G modified Iwagumi I'm doing.

About the release of tannins, it does have a certain aesthetic quality to it. I know it's not what you want to see, but don't worry much about it. As long as you've already waited on this tank, a couple of weeks more is a piece of cake. You could always remove it and boil it, which would also help it stay "rooted", too. 

Keep enjoying the journey. It's not about arriving at the destination, you know...


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> Perhaps they do. But that doesn't take any practical consideration into why fish gasp for air if CO2 is left on overnight. All I can say for sure is that if fish can be deprived of oxygen, then possibly bacteria can be as well.
> 
> Drop checker should be your best indicator for how much CO2 should be in there. Keep it at safe levels to prevent any harm to any lifeforms in there, including bacteria.
> 
> Somebody chime and double check my sanity


I'm sure you're right so what I'm going to do (because my drop checker still hasn't become green) is have my solenoid put on a timer that allows it to come on an hour before the lights come on and come off an hour before the lights are off. That way I should allow enough O2 to develop. I just don't want these plants not to flourish for lack of CO2!



> Dan, I just wanted to say how much I've enjoyed this journal of yours. It makes me want to post my photo log of the 75G modified Iwagumi I'm doing.


Great glad to be an encouragement! Journals were a huge encouragement to me as well...glad to pay it forward.



> About the release of tannins, it does have a certain aesthetic quality to it. I know it's not what you want to see, but don't worry much about it. As long as you've already waited on this tank, a couple of weeks more is a piece of cake. You could always remove it and boil it, which would also help it stay "rooted", too.
> 
> Keep enjoying the journey. It's not about arriving at the destination, you know...


Thanks Buff, yeah I don't like the tannins to be honest but I think even after one water change the wood is sinking and the tannins are lessening so I'm just going to wait it out. 

Day 3...









So I already see new growth! With my crappy point and shoot camera I'm not even going to attempt to catch it but real tiny next to the stalks all my plants I see little plantlets forming! The next generation! I will probably hate this growth rate in another 2 months! The stems are doing well too as the tops are producing new growth. So Day 3 comes and goes and the week charges on. I did one water change on Day 2 and I'm going to do one on Day 4. Then again probably on Day 6. That's my plan anyway...stay tuned!


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

To be honest now that the tank is filled and some plants I really like the wood placement. I was hesitant to be honest


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## chumlee (Nov 4, 2010)

Maybe try some purigen to get rid of those tannins. Or you could boil some tank water and make a nice cup of tea. 
the tank is looking really good, I like how the wood is placed. the only thing I dont like is that one stray rock but Im guessing it's to hold down the driftwood.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> To be honest now that the tank is filled and some plants I really like the wood placement. I was hesitant to be honest


Yep, it really is the only driftwood setup I was comfortable with. All three looked to busy and only the smaller pieces looked to empty. So...we'll see. 


> Maybe try some purigen to get rid of those tannins. Or you could boil some tank water and make a nice cup of tea.
> the tank is looking really good, I like how the wood is placed. the only thing I dont like is that one stray rock but Im guessing it's to hold down the driftwood.


Lol, yeah it's the same thing tea releases...so I guess I have driftwood tea..probably doesn't taste very good. I don't think I'm going to shell out for purigen but instead just wait it out. As mentioned before, a year and a half I've waited to set this up...I think I can wait the weeks of tannins. And yes, that weird rock out there is just weighing down the driftwood. I'm going to have to figure out something else though when the glosso gets here. 

Here's an update...Day 4


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

Day 7...










So I finally added the last batch of plants including the java fern on the driftwood, fissidens nobilis also on the driftwood. Added glosso to cover the masses of empty foreground and xmas moss in and around the base of the driftwood. Sorry for the bubbles from a fresh water change but hope you get a decent picture of where this is going.


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## Da Plant Man (Apr 7, 2010)

Looking good! Looks like you got the glass to pearl! That has to be a good sign!


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## Senior Shrimpo (Dec 4, 2010)

Lol nice yellow dropchecker. :hihi:

Really nice. The glosso's gonna look great when it fills in.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> Lol nice yellow dropchecker.


Yeah I have no idea why my drop checker is still yellow unless it has something to do with it having the wrong dKH which it was all in Chinese so i'm not sure if it was 4dkh or 5dkh. I have my CO2 starting at about 8-10 bps about 45 minutes before lights and off about 45 before lights out. My ph goes from about 6.8 to 6.2 during the photoperiod with Co2 blasting. I don't think my CO2 is low but I may be wrong...any thoughts?



> You're definitely on a roll.


Thanks for all your help in figuring things out. Tying the moss and java fern to the driftwood was a challenge but also provided a cool opportunity to spend time with my wife while tinkering with this hobby. She loved watching her handiwork add so much to the scape but not as much as I enjoyed seeing her get excited!


> Looking good! Looks like you got the glass to pearl! That has to be a good sign!


Thanks man! Yeah, gotta love those hyper-oxygenated water changes. And my crappy point and shoot digital camera doesn't help either. I love the way the tank looks and hate the way it looks in the pictures I take. O well. Perhaps that will be next on my list.


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## Gookis (Dec 28, 2010)

Dan,

It may have been posted earlier but what did you use for the background?

That driftwood is awesome btw!

Matt


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## rickztahone (Jul 20, 2009)

Dan the Man said:


> Yeah I have no idea why my drop checker is still yellow unless it has something to do with it having the wrong dKH which it was all in Chinese so i'm not sure if it was 4dkh or 5dkh. I have my CO2 starting at about 8-10 bps about 45 minutes before lights and off about 45 before lights out. My ph goes from about 6.8 to 6.2 during the photoperiod with Co2 blasting. I don't think my CO2 is low but I may be wrong...any thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



did you get this from ebay from overseas? if so, that liquid is Brom Blue. You need to buy some dkh4


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> did you get this from ebay from overseas? if so, that liquid is Brom Blue. You need to buy some dkh4


Actually I got it from a guy on SnS...guess I got taken for a ride...yeah it's definitely Asia as their is not english anywhere on the bottle. So I'm using the wrong solution you say...you know of a good cheap source for the right solution? And why wouldn't Brom Blue work for me?


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> an,
> 
> It may have been posted earlier but what did you use for the background?
> 
> ...


I used black vynal for the background.


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## Gookis (Dec 28, 2010)

The sticky-backed kind or just plain black vinyl? 

Thanks Dan!

Matt


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> The sticky-backed kind or just plain black vinyl?
> 
> Thanks Dan!
> 
> Matt


Well you basically wet it and then use a squeegee to get the air bubbles out...it's the same kind of stuff they use to tint windows I believe except mine is more opaque. I didn't apply it, my LFS did so I'm not sure about the back being sticky or not.


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## Gookis (Dec 28, 2010)

Aha, thanks Dan! 

I have some stickyback stuff and I'm trying to decide if I just use or attempt one of the "less permanent" solutions.

Matt


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

The tannins have greatly decreased. DHG and rotala growing well. Soon I will do a mighty pruning and hopefully train the glosso to carpet. 

Day 10...


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> Your drop checker is red... are you using something other than Bromothymol Blue? Great progress by the way.


Yeah I'm not even caring about the drop checker anymore. I plan on getting the right dkh when I'm ready to buy fish.


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## rickztahone (Jul 20, 2009)

Dan the Man said:


> Actually I got it from a guy on SnS...guess I got taken for a ride...yeah it's definitely Asia as their is not english anywhere on the bottle. So I'm using the wrong solution you say...you know of a good cheap source for the right solution? And why wouldn't Brom Blue work for me?


i'm sorry Dan, i just saw your question. Contact Gitmoe, that is where i got the dkh4 solution and fortunately for me i used the pH reagent from the API test kit. but, you have the brom blue already, that's what the asian writing bottle is. So just get the dkh4 :icon_lol:


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

Thanks Rick...that's what I'll do when I'm poised to purchase fish. After all, I can't out gass my plants can I?


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## rickztahone (Jul 20, 2009)

Dan the Man said:


> Thanks Rick...that's what I'll do when I'm poised to purchase fish. After all, I can't out gass my plants can I?


most certainly not, lol. I currently do the same thing on my 10g. The ISTA is always yellow, even in the morning. I get crazy pearling. My concern is what is going to happen when i stock it with shrimp and i have to bring down the co2 significantly.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

Day 14...just bushwacked the glosso. It was getting bushy but wasn't exactly spreading so I felt it was time to prune.


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## semperfimrn1 (Jan 19, 2011)

looks awesome!


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## antbug (May 28, 2010)

I can't believe this is the first time I've see your journal. Wonderful job so far. I was thinking of doing something similar in my tank with the Glosso hill. You're giving me great ideas for my new scape. Subscribed!


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> looks awesome!


Thanks!



> I can't believe this is the first time I've see your journal. Wonderful job so far. I was thinking of doing something similar in my tank with the Glosso hill. You're giving me great ideas for my new scape. Subscribed!


Thanks man. Yeah you can't really see it from the angle I take my pictures but there is indeed a glosso hill on the left. Your 120p will give you even more opportunity to exploit that. I will watch your tank with interest.


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

Looks Great! Love the hardscape


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

Day 21

About to trim the glosso again. Can't wait for it to start growing horizontal. Also, experiencing some algae woes.


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## rickztahone (Jul 20, 2009)

i'm on the same boat with the algae. i have a tank with nothing but glosso and Tropica 049 and i get crazy algae since it's a new tank.


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

Lower the light time and up the co2


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

Yeah there's no way I could increase the CO2 since I think it's at 15bps currently and already wasteful. I did just a couple days ago raise my lights up about 4" and lower my photo period by two hours to seven hours total. We'll see how that works. Unless you think that is still too much light.

-Dan


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## Rion (Dec 29, 2006)

If you plant the glosso deep so the leaves are just barely sticking out of the substrate you might notice more spreading than bushing. At least that's what I had to do to mine to get it to spread, you could try it with a few to test and see if it will on yours. The light period you set now sounds fine for now while the tank fills in, maybe add some more stem plants to help soak up nutrients or at least be sure to replant any rotala trimmings if you can.


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

Add some temporary floating plants

Shades a but and soaks up about everything. I have them in all my tanks for that reason


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## kat (Feb 2, 2011)

this is a great thread. the progression is so much fun to watch. i know you are having algae problems but from the algae i can see in your most recent picture it made the aquarium look so much more natural then the previous picture. 

subscribed


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> If you plant the glosso deep so the leaves are just barely sticking out of the substrate you might notice more spreading than bushing. At least that's what I had to do to mine to get it to spread, you could try it with a few to test and see if it will on yours. The light period you set now sounds fine for now while the tank fills in, maybe add some more stem plants to help soak up nutrients or at least be sure to replant any rotala trimmings if you can.


Hey Rion, thanks for the feedback. Yeah I'm definitely pushing the glosso down and trimming it everytime is starts bushing. If you have any other tips on the glosso that would be appreciated but I've learned that it's just about being patient. Also I will definitely be planting my stem cuttings. How tall do you let your rotala stems get before you cut them? I'm letting them get almost to the top.

Also, do you think my adjustments on the lighting will be enough to make the algae go away as is or should I add a lot of floaters as problemman suggested? 4 x 39 watts suspended about 10" and on for 7 hours. 



> Add some temporary floating plants
> 
> Shades a but and soaks up about everything. I have them in all my tanks for that reason


I this the competition argument that plants eventually out compete the algae for nutrients? Any plant suggestions or just any floater will do. I heard wisteria is a good one for this purpose. 



> this is a great thread. the progression is so much fun to watch. i know you are having algae problems but from the algae i can see in your most recent picture it made the aquarium look so much more natural then the previous picture.
> 
> subscribed


Thanks for the kind words and I'm glad your enjoying the thread.


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## Rion (Dec 29, 2006)

I have shorter tanks but I generally cut them when they hit the top as well, unless you're noticing a lot of die back on the lower sections then maybe trim sooner.

With the lights you might still get some algae with the hours you have set but you have to balance it out with how much your plants are getting. The more the plants grow the less algae you tend to get. It's really hard to say what you specifically need as light can be affected by many things so what works for one person might not work for another. If you still notice more algae maybe try floating plants and see if the extra shade helps but you don't want to "over shade" the plants below because things like glosso can sometimes be finicky about the light they receive. Really I guess what I'm saying is it's going to take some experimenting and seeing what works


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

> I have shorter tanks but I generally cut them when they hit the top as well, unless you're noticing a lot of die back on the lower sections then maybe trim sooner.
> 
> With the lights you might still get some algae with the hours you have set but you have to balance it out with how much your plants are getting. The more the plants grow the less algae you tend to get. It's really hard to say what you specifically need as light can be affected by many things so what works for one person might not work for another. If you still notice more algae maybe try floating plants and see if the extra shade helps but you don't want to "over shade" the plants below because things like glosso can sometimes be finicky about the light they receive. Really I guess what I'm saying is it's going to take some experimenting and seeing what works


Yup, I agree. We'll see how these new measures work and go from there. Thanks for the help.


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## NeuRon (Feb 6, 2011)

This is looking good. I can't wait to see it grown in more.


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## farmhand (Jun 25, 2009)

Just found this journal through your link. Great tank. Love the wood. Any updates?


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## komodoking (Aug 3, 2011)

Wow, wow , wow


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## doncityz (May 17, 2011)

I love the way your tank progresses. Would love to see the update on it... awesome stuff


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## demonr6 (Mar 14, 2011)

Dan, update please. Pins and needles here waiting to see how this has turned out.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

Hey guys...sorry about the lack of updates...I was out of the country for a while this summer and the guy taking care of my tank, well, let's just say, struggled with it. It's been in the ICU for a while since I've been back and I'm beginning to turn things around but it's not pretty. I'll post a pic tomorrow since I know how much I appreciate well updated journals...(unlike mine).


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

As the owner of a 90p do you have any regrets? Do you ever wish for the longer length of a 120p? I'm trying to decide if my next tank will be 75, 90, or 120 P.


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## Dan the Man (Sep 8, 2009)

honestly, I couldn't be happier with my 90p. I however am limited in space but truthfully, the longer the tank, the harder to scape IMO. I think the 90p is a good marriage between size and "scapability". I do look forward to owning a larger tank someday but with my budget and living space this tank is perfect.


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## Uptown193 (Apr 25, 2011)

Very nice. I would like to see how it look now since it should be all crystal clear now.


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

We gotta see the pics, good or bad!! It looked nice before you had gone and seemed to have plenty in the filtration dept, but no CO2 could have started trouble.


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