# Sick kuhli loach



## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

So one of my five kuhli loaches has turned almost all white. I have the orange and brown striped variety, and you can vaguely see where his pattern is, but that's it. You can also see a large red line going through him (intestine maybe?) regardless, there is no fuzz on him or anything, my ammonia and nitrites are zero, nitrates are about 30ppm. One of my kuhlis just died about a week ago after the same thing happened. They are all about 8 months old or so. Any help is greatly appreciated!


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

Wow I have always kept Kuhli's and have never heard of them getting ill, can you get some pics up on the screen. The red line sounds strange, maybe a worm but it could be anything, spine, etc. Is there anything at all you are doing different or added to the tank, water changes, etc. What else is in the tank fish, plants, etc?? This is a real mystery I hope someone comes along with an answer for you.


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

I got a new camera, and have been itching to take some pics of the tank. Nothing has changed other than the dead kuhli, and a guppie died on me a couple weeks ago. I figured it was about her time to go though. The plants I have currently in the tank is a single piece of lucky bamboo from Ikea, some sort of very fast growing grass that grows a lot in the freshwaters in Maryland, a crypt parva, and a tiny amount of glossostigma. I also recently had to battle some really nasty black slime stuff. Probably Algae of some sort. After I went on vacation for a week and had the neighbor watch the place, I think he left the aquarium lights on 24/7...

I've been putting slime coat and melafix (teatree oil) in the water just to try to help the guy out a bit. I think it's working, because I hadn't seen him for a couple days, until this morning.

When the first kuhli got sick, I was putting in that malachite green stuff, because I initially thought it was some sort of fungus. Now that I got a better look though, it's just that he's almost transparent. No fungus or anything.


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

Well I'm weird becuase I will never use any medications in my tank after some bad experiences, not even buffers etc. I do dose dry ferts. But I don't think the lights would do it becuase they would just hide even if they were stressed a little that should be ok. The odd man out for me is the Ikea Bamboo and here's my thinking, it's not made for aquariums so there's no telling if it was fertilized or sprayed with something to give it a longer shelf life or something is leaching out of the bamboo as it gets older that does not agree with a Kuhli. He could have also had a reaction to one of the medications, I personally would remove the bamboo and do some small water changes (25%) every couple of days for a week or so just to get the medications out of the tank. Good luck and I hope someone with more knowledge than me comes along to help you, plus get that new camera out and post a pic.


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

Well, my loaches are still hiding, and still won't touch any algae wafers I give them... Not really sure what's up with them. Maybe the heat? We don't have A/C, so the water is about 85+ degrees on most days.

I haven't seen the lighter kuhli loach for a while, and hope he/she is still alive. No ammonia spikes, so everything still looks alright.


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

That's really hot, I would angle a fan to blow across the water surface it should cool it down some, I have pulled Kuhli's (juvinile) out of the bottom of my Eheim canister thinking some had died after a month, so I started using a strainer to dump the water from my canisters so the Kuhli's won't go down the drain.


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## 4f1hmi (Apr 22, 2009)

KUHLIs are also sensitive to excel , any chemicals and high c02 concentration. So be careful. Lost mine from chemicals I can't remember. I still keep giant kuhli's together with shrimps .


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

My Kuhli's are in a tank with very high C02 levels and EI dosing with no problems, now excel is basically a watered down antiseptic hospital cleaner so too much could be a problem but you would have to really overdose it.


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

Turning pale is perfectly normal. As is the red line. Your kuhli is not sick. The reason you haven't seen the "pale" one for awhile is that is has colored back up.


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

Well, the thing is, I believe I am down to 5 kuhlis now (had 7, one died the first day in the tank, and the other which I mentioned earlier) But I only see three out at a time. They like to bunch up together in the anubias roots at the side of the tank. The pale one may have colored back up, but it doesn't explain the fact that only three are out at a time, and two are hiding constantly... It DOES make me feel better that they go pale even if they aren't sick though. Thanks Betta maniac.

And just to put it out there, I don't dose co2, and I only put a tiny bit of excel in there once a week or so. Mineralized topsoil topped with white sand for the substrate, and stock (crappy) lighting. My tank is NOT lush lol!

I'll put a fan by the tank tonight, maybe that will encourage them to come out and play like they used to. They are great fish... when you actually get to see them!


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

I have ten and rarely see more than one or two. They were out and about more before I added the CPDs, now they hide a lot. It's just how they are. If you had gravel in the tank, you'd NEVER seen them.


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## reignOfFred (Jun 7, 2010)

> If you had gravel in the tank, you'd NEVER seen them.


I use gravel and see my Kuhlis all the time. Out of the 6 I have I can almost always see at least a couple, and it is very common for them all to be out and about. Not only that but they've become bold enough to keep hanging around while I maintain the tank - I have to physically touch them for them to dash off and hide.

Also my kuhlis have no issues with my co2 injection or ei dosing - they are almost 3 years old now and living for about a year now under the co2 conditions. I have found them to be extremely tough and versatile fish - all they ask for is lots of company and lots of tank decor.


Anyway, if your Kuhli is normal pale then it should not last very long - they really only go pale IME when they are very stressed (like when I upset the tank enough to totally disturb them), and the colour returns quickly.


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

moonshinetheslacker said:


> Well, the thing is, I believe I am down to 5 kuhlis now (had 7, one died the first day in the tank, and the other which I mentioned earlier) But I only see three out at a time. They like to bunch up together in the anubias roots at the side of the tank. The pale one may have colored back up, but it doesn't explain the fact that only three are out at a time, and two are hiding constantly... It DOES make me feel better that they go pale even if they aren't sick though. Thanks Betta maniac.
> 
> And just to put it out there, I don't dose co2, and I only put a tiny bit of excel in there once a week or so. Mineralized topsoil topped with white sand for the substrate, and stock (crappy) lighting. My tank is NOT lush lol!
> 
> I'll put a fan by the tank tonight, maybe that will encourage them to come out and play like they used to. They are great fish... when you actually get to see them!


Well if your tank is not lush meaning full with a lot of plants the 30 ppm nitrates may be part of the answer, no co2, no high light, no ferts, so the nitrates and other compounds may be building a little because there's no rapid growth to get rid on nutreints, etc. from fish waste. Maybe it could just be a water change is in order, when wast your last one???


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

reignOfFred said:


> I use gravel and see my Kuhlis all the time.


Really? In all the gravel tanks I've seen them kept in, they seem to speand ALL their time burrowing.


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

150eh, that's a good call on the nitrates and low light, etc. Seems to make the most sense to me. Im actually going to be putting some more plants in, but I suppose I can replace the bulb, and put in a little bit of water ferts. Also, last water change was sunday. Sunday is water change day. I do it religiously... hehe.


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

moonshinetheslacker said:


> Sunday is water change day. I do it religiously... hehe.


Me too. Get up. Make a cup of tea. Test water perams in all the tanks. Change water, add ferts, top off as needed.


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

Did a 40% WC today, put in some new plants, and dosed a little bit of excel. Also, before changing the water, I was fanning all the crud off of leaves, the slate wall, and the bottom of the tank. I can't gravel vac, because I have regular white play sand as a cap for my mineralized topsoil. So I get all the brown crap into the water column, and then do a water change. Nonetheless. While I was stirring the stuff up, I saw my two pale kuhli loaches. Both good news and bad. Good that they aren't dead, but bad that I have yet another pale kuhli. Hopefully the water change helps. I'm also going to do another water change on sunday.

Before doing the water change, I checked the water, and everything looked identical to the way it did when I made my first post on this thread. However, I found my pH test kit and give it a whirl. My pH was rather high though, 8.2! I'm going to check my tap water tomorrow to see what it is straight from there, but 8.2 seems awfully high. Could that be affecting my kuhlis?


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## Loachutus (Aug 27, 2010)

> My pH was rather high though, 8.2! I'm going to check my tap water tomorrow to see what it is straight from there, but 8.2 seems awfully high. Could that be affecting my kuhlis?


Yes it could be. They come from waters where the PH is in the 6's and water hardness is usually under 10dh. Hardwood leaves or IAL's would help soften your water and be a great playground for them. They are used to having a lot of leaf litter in their natural habitat. You could also cut your tap water with RO water.


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

Alright, here comes my newbie questions. What is RO water? I've heard people talk about it, but don't know what it is. How do I measure water hardness? And what would be a good leaf I can put in there, that I could find around maryland?


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## Loachutus (Aug 27, 2010)

RO- reverse osmosis, http://www.thefreedictionary.com/reverse+osmosis

Testing water hardness, http://aquariumpharm.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=74

Hardwood leaves, this is from shrimpnow. If it's ok for shrimp it's cool for kuhlis. Check post #39, http://www.shrimpnow.com/forums/showthread.php/7439-List-of-Shrimp-safe-leaves/page4


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

8.2 is a little high, Aquarium Pharms sell a little DI filter ($42) that would help some, you can find them online almost everywhere and Eheim sells peat you can put in you filter but the water browns a little, but the pH would be better for everything if it were closer to neutral.


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## reignOfFred (Jun 7, 2010)

Lower pH would be nice, but it's not detrimental - my water before co2 is 8, and mine never had an issue with that either. I might make sure they have good secure hiding spots (the type where they can all disappear entirely and not just hug against plants), and make sure they have no severe competition, such as larger and more robust loaches or other bottom dwellers. Make sure they get their food, which might mean feeding in the dark so food gets to them, especially if you are a lighter feeder like me or have aggressive feeders in the tank.

With things like leaves and peat you can't expect much results with water already hard and alkaline - the more hard and alkaline it is, the less affect there is - your water changes would probably negate anything you add in this effect. The same peat that might drop pH 6.5 to 6.0 would only drop ph 8.2 to 8.0, give or take.

Anyway, this is my experience and anything is worth a shot regardless - I have no luck with Otos despite lots of care and experience and have come to the conclusion that if a fish doesn't work for you despite you feeling you did everything in your power, it might not be worth even bothering with anymore - lots of fish to choose from. Also if you are experiencing no deaths, the problem my not really be a problem afterall.


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## jdm68 (Jun 2, 2011)

Loachutus said:


> Hardwood leaves, this is from shrimpnow. If it's ok for shrimp it's cool for kuhlis. Check post #39, http://www.shrimpnow.com/forums/showthread.php/7439-List-of-Shrimp-safe-leaves/page4


I think that thread is about leaves that are ok to use as FOOD for shrimps, which isn't quite the pH lowering effect we are talking about in this thread. That being said, I'm sure that a good number of those leaves would do the trick. 

What do people think about the commercial pH lowering solutions? I have used those, and they seem to work fine. At the least, you could use it to lower the pH initially and then maintain it with peat or leaves...Thoughts?


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

Well, they certainly have plenty of extremely good hiding spots, but it may just be a feeding issue. How much food should one adult kuhli eat per day? I may have been underfeeding these little guys.
Also, do algae wafers go stale? They used to munch on them quite a bit, but now they won't touch 'em.


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## reignOfFred (Jun 7, 2010)

I just put a bunch of food in at night a few times per week- flakes, frozen, or small sinking pellets. What they don't eat will be taken care of by the shrimp and trumpet and assassin snails so I don't need to worry much about over feeding unless I really go nuts.

All fish food goes stale, and loses nutrition over time. If I don't use it within a few months I buy new.


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

Well, all 5 were out this morning when I checked on them, and the two pale ones were much less pale. Almost the same color as the rest! Two days ago I put some pH down, in the tank, and today I put a little more. I also put a large oak leaf in the tank. The only weird thing is that when I came home today, I couldn't find a single Kuhli. There are three that usually hang out in the anubias roots, but today they were nowhere to be found. Then again, it was in the nineties today, and I forgot to turn the fan on, to blow on the tank...


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