# Is this a deficiency or overdose?? (CSM-B Toxicity)



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

So nobody wants to take a crack at this one, lol?

Anyway, I did a 75% water change yesterday, and today added the same dose of macro. Im thinking about skipping the Fe for a while and see how it goes. May also go with only 2x weekly dose for a while, instead of 3x. Probably just observe what the plants look like on day 3/4, and test nitrates and phos then too, for maybe an idea of how rapidly everything is being used.

From what I understand there's only a very few things that will cause problems if overdosed (at the relative amounts Im dealing with). It doesnt seem like there should be that much too much of anything at this point, but idk. My tap water is really hard if that makes any difference. Maybe it was just too much of a change all at once? 

I dont think it's a big problem or anything, just a little something needs tweaking. I figured somebody around here would have an idea maybe what is happening.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Maybe could increase the CO2 ?
Ensure good flow throughout the tank.?
CO2 on timer to come on 2 hours before lighting?
Were it me, I would add more macro's a bit.no worries doing so with weekly water change.
If none of what I mentioned appeals to you ,then reducing light and thereby reducing demand from plants would be my move.
Less light,less demand for everything else and slower growth.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Thanks for the suggestions. Im almost certain it's something to do with the ferts though, considering the time line and reaction.


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

Co2 is the main problem. You trying to compensate by overdosing is another.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

mrkookm said:


> Co2 is the main problem...


Yup.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

mrkookm said:


> Co2 is the main problem. You trying to compensate by overdosing is another.


It may very well be, but I dont see how I can be Co2 deficient now when up until two months ago, I didnt have any - same plants, same light.

This is not a high-light driven tank, it's in the low end of medium at best. It's the same light I had for almost 5 months with nothing but Excel and Flourish comp. Everything grew fine, except as plant mass effectively tripled, I began to notice what looked like a macro deficiency.

Enter Seachem liquid N P K Fe. These helped a lot, for a brief period of time, @ around 1.5 "beginner dose."

Couple weeks later, added DIY Co2. (yes I know the consensus, not good for a tank this size) My system is very sound though, and any is better than none - as long as it is consistent - right? Im doing thee 2 liter bottles staggered 1 week apart. There's no up and downs. Degas and PH/KH tests indicate in the 20-25 ppm range, although I suspect it's not that high. Drop checker is green though so it may be. Here's a build thread with full details. Regardless, plants absolutely blew up, changed color, etc. Only thing after a few weeks the macro deficiency got worse and worse. Which came as no surprise after the Co2 accelerated growth. Those seachem liquids are incredibly weak, esp at the dose I was using. 

Which brings us to one week ago, dry ferts arrived and I started EI routine based on 55 gal levels. My tank is 75 gal btw, so obviously Im not trying to "compensate by overdosing", as you put it. :red_mouth


If there was a deficiency, then things should have gotten better. I believe the slight potassium symptoms are secondary and unrelated. The negative response was so dramatic, and happened so fast is what makes me suspect toxicity. If low Co2 was the problem, I doubt it'd make leaves wither and start dropping within a matter of days. Would it? 

Regardless, Im going to do a full 75 gallon dose for a week or two and see what happens. Things will either get better or worse. :icon_eek:

Thanks for the suggestions.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

If you're dosing EI I doubt you're having a deficiency, especially at lower light levels. If you're dosing EI then you're doing weekly water changes which kind of negates the idea of an overdose. As your plant mass increases, the amount of C needed also increases as does competition between plants for the amount of C present. Increased plant mass can also cause stagnant areas preventing some plants from receiving enough CO2. What may have been enough CO2 in the beginning may not be later on.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

The thing that is in least supply for the plants is what will limit the plants growth rate. That can be light, which is the best way to limit the growth, or it can be CO2, which is the most likely to be in short supply, or it can be any of the NPK and trace elements, which is very unlikely if you are following the EI dosing method. When the plants have too little nitrate, for example, their resulting slowed growth can hide a shortage of iron, for example, or CO2. When you fix the first shortage, the others then limit the growth. By following the EI method you can be sure none of the basic plant needs other than CO2 or light will be limiting the growth. So, it is then easy to eliminate the limitations - increase the CO2 supply and/or increase the light supply. But, ideally you want to end up with the limited light being what limits the plant growth rate.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Thanks for the info guys. I do understand the three legged stool of light/nutrients/Co2. It may be the latter, if not now eventually, but I feel like at this point it's fert related since there were early signs of deficiency before adding Co2, which then seemed to snowball with the accelerated growth rate. 

How long does it take for a nutrient deficiency to correct itself? It's only been a week, in other words 3 doses, which to begin with were based on a 30% smaller tank.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

burr740 said:


> Thanks for the suggestions. Im almost certain it's something to do with the ferts though, considering the time line and reaction.


If I had a nickel every time some said that ....:redface:

If you had limitatings prior, then you also had issues with your CO2, what happens when you have no limiting levels of ferts?

the CO2 issue is highlighted. EI simply rules out the ferts and makes them independent. That is the utility with EI, it shows if the CO2 is well run and other factors(Good filtration, water changes etc). If not, then you will get those tale tell signs. 
I dose something close to your routine, maybe a bit more, but I have more light also.




Point is, ferts are very easy to rule out, but if you another issue, say CO2, then..............well.............you are guessing and making a "bad" guess.
But if someone adds those same ferts, and does NOT have issues, then you can say, at least independent of OTHER factors, that the ferts are not the issue.

Wildly popular to blame ferts, but IME, I've seen no cases to date where they have issues ....other than simply not adding enough of them. And that's going on about 20+ years........


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

plantbrain said:


> what happens when you have no limiting levels of ferts?


 In this case, we dont know because I just started adding adequate amounts of everything. That is my point. We'll soon find out though. If it turns out more Co2 is needed, then I'll throw another bottle or two in the mix, or bite the bullet on a pressurized system, which I plan on doing anyway. Was hoping to hold off til Christmas and make my girlfriend can buy it for me though, lol


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

Did you increase your CO2 intake as you got more plant mass? You probably had a nutrient deficiency at first but now that the plants have all the nutrients they could want available they will also want more CO2.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

15 Months later update. The problem was overdose of csm-b. 

Went to pressurized CO2 shortly after starting this thread. The problem was never CO2. 

After several months of trial and error, and many fried plants, I became certain that either traces or Fe was indeed the problem.

Long story short, I went about 3 months with no micros at all. Everything grew fine again. Only when I started to notice a deficiency did I bring csmb and fe back into the mix. 

One confounding factor was that I'd used a considerable amount of Osmocote+ to supplement the inert blasting sand substrate. I suspected that was causing EI levels of trace to become too much.

But now, Im not even sure the Osmocote+ made any difference, because there's hardly any in there now and I still cannot dose much csmb.

The routine that has been working well for the past few months is csmb dosed for .1 ppm Fe 3x week, and .06 ppm Fe dtpa 11% dosed almost every day. 

75 gallon tank
Densely planted
120-ish PAR at sub
1.3-1.4 PH drop with CO2
KH 6-7
GH 8-9. 

I use straight tap, which the water report claims 70 something ppm Ca and 8 Mg, so I add 10 ppm Mg via Epsom salt with each water change. Although I cannot say for sure if it makes any difference.

Macros dosed 3x week - 7.5 ppm N, 2.5 ppm P, 5 ppm K2S04.
Micros as listed above.
Calculated for 65 gallons.

Weekly 60-70% WC 


Figured I would update this since trace toxicity seems to be a hot topic atm.

TIFWIW


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

That's good to know. Since my tap has a GH=2, 15ppm of Ca, 5ppm of Mg, toxicity occurs at 0.1ppm of Fe per week. So one dose of 0.1ppm of Fe from CSM+B is toxic in such soft water. I wish I knew that this was the case because I would have saved so much fertilizers if I didn't dose so much.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

burr740 said:


> 15 Months later update. The problem was overdose of csm-b.
> 
> Went to pressurized CO2 shortly after starting this thread. The problem was never CO2.
> 
> ...


Did you ever experience an issue growing S.repens, downoi, or AR mini?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

bcarl_10gal said:


> Did you ever experience an issue growing S.repens, downoi, or AR mini?


Both the s repens and downoi have grown like wildfire for me the whole time. They dont seem to care. Neither does HC or gloss in my experience.

I only acquired the AR mini a few months ago, so they werent around when the problem was going on.


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## 58417 (Dec 18, 2012)

The sad thing is that although you did find the root of the problem (i.e. toxic levels of micronutrients in this case), some people will still blame CO2 ... no matter what the reality is.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> That's good to know. Since my tap has a GH=2, 15ppm of Ca, 5ppm of Mg, toxicity occurs at 0.1ppm of Fe per week. So one dose of 0.1ppm of Fe from CSM+B is toxic in such soft water. I wish I knew that this was the case because I would have saved so much fertilizers if I didn't dose so much.


.1 per week? Wow

Im going to cut mine in half to .05 3x to see if I get any positive results or changes in plant growth. There still may be some toxic effect even though everything "looks" healthy.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Interesting update Burr. Looking at some of my lower ludwigia leaves wondering if I have a problem. I am running the basic PPS-Pro csm-b


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Kind of unrelated but I think burr might appreciate this update on my tank...

I am dosing 1/4 tsp CSM+B and 1/8 tsp Fe in my tank now. My AR mini has always been a disaster. Last week I took out like 90% of my plant mass and re-planted a lot of stuff. Mostly just took out the rotala and am going pure ludwigia arcuata/brevipes/red along with blyxa j and my DHG carpet. Also lowered my lighting by like 15%. AR mini new growth is PERFECTLY HEALTHY now. I can't believe it. I hate this hobby sometimes (mostly all the time though).

Bottom line is that I have had increased success by lowering micro dosing as well. I dose quite a bit of iron and see no bad results from that. I also have seen curled growth on some of my plants and am quite certain it is due to Ca / Mg imbalance. In my particular scenario I give the tank 1tsp of CaSO4 and 1/4 tsp of MgSO4 each week after I do a water change.

First time in a while that I have been getting healthy growth consistently throughout all plants.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

klibs said:


> Kind of unrelated but I think burr might appreciate this update on my tank...
> 
> I am dosing 1/4 tsp CSM+B and 1/8 tsp Fe in my tank now. My AR mini has always been a disaster. Last week I took out like 90% of my plant mass and re-planted a lot of stuff. Mostly just took out the rotala and am going pure ludwigia arcuata/brevipes/red along with blyxa j and my DHG carpet. Also lowered my lighting by like 15%. AR mini new growth is PERFECTLY HEALTHY now. I can't believe it. *I hate this hobby sometimes* (mostly all the time though).
> 
> ...


LOL, yep.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Where that massive thread about the CSM+B toxicity? I started reading the first few pages and now it's gone. I can't seem to find it anywhere here, pm me the link. Am I going crazy? I swear there was close to 10 pages of posts.


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## aclaar877 (Feb 19, 2014)

FlyingHellFish said:


> Where that massive thread about the CSM+B toxicity? I started reading the first few pages and now it's gone. I can't seem to find it anywhere here, pm me the link. Am I going crazy? I swear there was close to 10 pages of posts.


Yeah, I went looking for it too. 21 pages as of last night. Let me ask.


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## bsantucci (Sep 30, 2013)

It's gone due to Audionut's rant I believe. He kinda tore into Solecia.

That being said, I experienced the same as you burr740. I'm actually moving to dosing lower amounts of Miller's Microplex. It's mixed evenly from the manufacturer versus the CSM+B which you can clearly see is not even in each dose.

I figured making sure I have an even amount and lesser amount of my dose will be safer. I started reducing my CSM+B dosing about 3 weeks ago and ALL plants are resuming healthy growth. AR Mini, Colorata, and L. Glandulosa all straigtened out their leaves and stopped stunting.

I had my water tested and found toxic levels of copper, zinc, and iron from my previous dosing.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

The CSM+B sold in Canada has a higher concentration of Boron, if anyone has the thread I would like to read it. 

Audionut's rant? Solecia? That must of been one EPIC rant to shut down a 20 page thread.


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## bsantucci (Sep 30, 2013)

FlyingHellFish said:


> The CSM+B sold in Canada has a higher concentration of Boron, if anyone has the thread I would like to read it.
> 
> Audionut's rant? Solecia? That must of been one EPIC rant to shut down a 20 page thread.


LOL, it was rather epic. It was a straight up attack on him. Lots of good information was lost in that thread as a result. I'm kinda bummed about it.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

I did not participate in any rant, I ignored it, so please don't mention me. He was clearly looking to start trouble and derail the thread.

As for the boron, different suppliers add different amounts of boron, some 3x more than manganese! E.g. (in mmol/L) Fe = 33.3, B = 27.7 B, Mn = 8.74. The ratio's are completely off so it's very possible that boron toxicity can occur. However, it's not just boron that's different. Other elements are also in different ratios from the manufacturer. This may be due to customizing for different crop nutrition in certain countries, who knows? In any case, the online calculators are not reliable for CSM+B and should not be relied upon if you acquire it in countries other than the USA. Read the content label to be certain.

Since there's concern about the toxicity of CSM+B, until an alternative can be found or formulated, I recommend using Seachem Flourish or Easy-Life ProFito. Both are very similar in nutritional content and of similar price (~$8 for 500ml, though AMZ just doubled the price of ProFito; the price of Easy-Life tends to have massive fluctuations on that site.)


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## Positron (Jul 22, 2013)

Last night after finely coming to the conclusion CSM+B will never give me what I want, I grabbed a 500mL bottle of flourish and added it to a 1000mL fert container. I added enough DTPA for .02 ppm iron per dose in 1000mL, and filled the bottle to the top with distilled water.

Apparently I just love diluting my micro's 

Because the flourish is diluted by a factor of 2, I need to dose double the amount to obtain the same results as seen on the label. I was going to do 4mL per 75g 3x a week (instead of the prescribed 5mL per 60g 2x a week), but now it's 8mL per 75g three times a week.

.02 ppm iron from 11% DTPA
.05 ppm iron from flourish (iron gluc)

dose 3x a week.

The heavy metal content is much lower than CSM+B, and I worked out that with no uptake none of the heavy metals would ever be even close to a toxic threshold (what that threshold is can be found in scientific reports). None of the metals are chelated in flourish, which is fine by me. In the long run the metals will either wind up in the substrate, taken out in water changes, or taken up by the plants. 

We'll see how things go!


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

I haven't dosed micros in a long time because I always had issues when doing so. 

With a good stock of fish and seeing how my tank is a crypt and moss only setup, I don't run into any issues.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

philipraposo1982 said:


> I haven't dosed micros in a long time because I always had issues when doing so.
> 
> With a good stock of fish and seeing how my tank is a crypt and moss only setup, I don't run into any issues.


I'm in the same boat with you. I've not dosed micros on any regular basis in a long time.


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## Saxa Tilly (Apr 7, 2015)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> Since there's concern about the toxicity of CSM+B, until an alternative can be found or formulated, I recommend using Seachem Flourish or Easy-Life ProFito. Both are very similar in nutritional content...


Thoughts on Seachem Flourish *TRACE*? Don't see it on calculators. 

Is Trace similar to Comprehensive? And if used according to label directions, what are levels of potentially troublesome metals?


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## RedDelPaPa (Oct 1, 2005)

Hi folks.

This could very well be the problem I've been scratching my head over for quite some time now. (Zapins?) I have 2 75 gallon tanks linked together in a circulating system. Heavily planted, med/hi light with co2 injection. I have been dosing 1/4tsp csm+b to each tank 3 times per week along with my regular macros. I do not make typical water changes where tank water is first drained and then replaced with new/fresh water. Rather, I have a drip system with a leveling siphon calibrated to drip 70 gallons total of fresh water per week. It's a very nice hands off system, but I see the potential for high levels of trace metals to accumulate in this system. This does not equate to standard 50% water changes.

For the last year, my plants have looked rough. They grow, but slowly, and they all display what appears to be a mild to moderate fe deficiency. No matter how much csm+b I dose. Algae is a constant issue. That said, I have noticed that my tanks will not grow BBA or staghorn. None. Not a bit. That may sound great to some, but I suspect this to be linked to my plant health issues. Back when my plants grew well, my tanks always used to grow BBA or stag if I neglected things.

Your thoughts?


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## Positron (Jul 22, 2013)

Saxa Tilly said:


> Thoughts on Seachem Flourish *TRACE*? Don't see it on calculators.
> 
> Is Trace similar to Comprehensive? And if used according to label directions, what are levels of potentially troublesome metals?


Don't quote me on this, but I think it is similar. I have an old bottle around here that i can post percentages from. It includes all the standard heavy metals plus a few more (Vanadium, Strontium and I think Nickle.). It doe NOT contain any iron. You must dose that separately. 



RedDelPaPa said:


> Hi folks.
> 
> This could very well be the problem I've been scratching my head over for quite some time now. (Zapins?) I have 2 75 gallon tanks linked together in a circulating system. Heavily planted, med/hi light with co2 injection. I have been dosing 1/4tsp csm+b to each tank 3 times per week along with my regular macros. I do not make typical water changes where tank water is first drained and then replaced with new/fresh water. Rather, I have a drip system with a leveling siphon calibrated to drip 70 gallons total of fresh water per week. It's a very nice hands off system, but I see the potential for high levels of trace metals to accumulate in this system. This does not equate to standard 50% water changes.
> 
> ...


Hey RedDelPapa,

I actually remember reading your original post a long time ago and thought how similar our problems where. 

Try stopping all micro dosing. What do you have to loose? Give it a month and see what happens. Continue dosing macros as normal.


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## Saxa Tilly (Apr 7, 2015)

Positron said:


> Don't quote me on this, but I think it is similar. I have an old bottle around here that i can post percentages from. It includes all the standard heavy metals plus a few more (Vanadium, Strontium and I think Nickle.). It doe NOT contain any iron. You must dose that separately.


Yes, plan on dosing Fe separately. But trying to get an idea of how to compare Flourish Trace with the non-iron portion of CSM+B.

Using Flourish Trace per label direction is what…20% of EI strength CSM+B? 50%? 5%? Wish calculators included Flourish Trace as a drop down option. 

I supposed I could dilute a big batch of CSM+B. But I'm suspicious that the stuff is not evenly blended and that 1 spoonful of it today will have too much of one metal versus a spoonful tomorrow. 

Buying a bottled product won't have that variability issue. Not to mention it will be mostly water, weaker and safer.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

Saxa Tilly said:


> Using Flourish Trace per label direction is what…20% of EI strength CSM+B? 50%? 5%? Wish calculators included Flourish Trace as a drop down option.


My calculator does include Flourish Trace. In fact, you can add any fertilizer you want on your own. That's one of several advantages of having a downloadable application versus an online version. The link is in my signature.

So here are the numbers...

*Plantex dose targeting 0.5 ppm of Iron and Flourish Trace per the label*
Flourish Trace: 5ml per 80 liters
Plantex CSM + B: 612.56 mg (roughly 1/8 teaspoon) per 80 liters



```
[B]Plantex CSM+B	Flourish Trace[/B]	
	
B	0.061 		0.033
Cu	0.0069		0.038
Mn	0.14		0.1
Mo	0.0038		0.0035
Zn	0.028		0.2
```


```
[B]Elements in Flourish Trace not found in Plantex[/B]

Co		0.00035		
Ni		0.000035
Rb		0.000094
V		0.000024
```


```
[B]Elements in Plantex not found in Flourish Trace[/B]
	
Fe	0.5
Mg	0.11
```




Saxa Tilly said:


> I supposed I could dilute a big batch of CSM+B. But I'm suspicious that the stuff is not evenly blended and that 1 spoonful of it today will have too much of one metal versus a spoonful tomorrow.
> 
> Buying a bottled product won't have that variability issue. Not to mention it will be mostly water, weaker and safer.


I agree with this. It would be nice if we could buy concentrated trace solutions. Until then...


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## Saxa Tilly (Apr 7, 2015)

Zorfox said:


> So here are the numbers...
> 
> *Plantex dose targeting 0.5 ppm of Iron and Flourish Trace per the label*
> Flourish Trace: 5ml per 80 liters
> ...


Perfect. Thank you, Zorfox! I'm aware of your calculator…but haven't used Windows since Dubya was in office. :grin2:

Anyway, just what I was looking for…and concerned about. 

5.5X more copper in Flourish Trace.
7.1X more zinc in Flourish Trace. 

And this is when compared to full strength EI dose of CSM+B. 

Is this an issue?

Would regular Flourish be better? 

Is there consensus amongst those trying to reduce trace toxicity about which commercial product offers the safest trace levels if used per label directions - Flourish Trace vs Flourish vs EasyLife ProFito vs ??


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## Silversea (Jun 13, 2013)

@burr740 Does your water report report Ca and Mg as CaCO3, if so then you have much less in actual ppm.
Ca actual 28.1 and Magnesium actual 1.9ppm. Calcium is fine but you would want to add Mg or you could bottom out quickly.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Silversea said:


> @*burr740* Does your water report report Ca and Mg as CaCO3, if so then you have much less in actual ppm.
> Ca actual 28.1 and Magnesium actual 1.9ppm. Calcium is fine but you would want to add Mg or you could bottom out quickly.


Thanks. It says "Calcium, as Ca" 49.8 ppm and "Magnesium, as Mg" 4.45 ppm.

** I was mistaken earlier when I posted 70 and 8, that was from memory. Got confused with tests results done on my water by user PortalMasterRY, into which I'd added a bit of GH booster. Just looked again to be sure.

Anyway, for the past few months Ive been adding 8-10 ppm Mg via Epsom salt at water changes. There was an immediate improvement. So that could've been part of the problem to begin with. So many confounding factors!

But regardless, even to this day Ive never been able to add more than .1 or .2 ppm csmb without rapid catastrophic results....for whatever reason.

Things look better at .1 than .2. Things like undulation and stunted growth, algae prone older growth, etc. Symptoms that dont necessarily jump out at you, but are obvious if you know what a plant is supposed to look like.

But in general, things have been cruising along pretty well for the past few months.

Never being one to leave well enough alone, about two weeks ago I changed over to Flourish Comp dosing at .07 ppm Fe, along with .1 ppm DTPA. Once again there was an immediate improvement. Honestly my plants have never looked better. 

Im not sure if this will be enough to sustain things long term, may still be in a honeymoon type period, idk....


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## rhiro (Sep 21, 2012)

Saxa Tilly said:


> Perfect. Thank you, Zorfox! I'm aware of your calculator…but haven't used Windows since Dubya was in office. :grin2:
> 
> Anyway, just what I was looking for…and concerned about.
> 
> ...


These are the concentrations I have for Trace and Comprehensive. My Trace values differ significantly from Zorfox. Sorry for the readability but I could not get it to format properly.

Trace
B 0.0028% 0.002
Co 0.00003% 0
Cu 0.0032% 0.002
Mn 0.0085% 0.006
Mo 0.0003% 0
Ni 0.000003% 0
Rb 0.000008% 0
V 0.000002% 0
Zn 0.0169% 0.011

Comprehensive
Fe 0.32%	0.0704
B 0.009%	0.002
Ca 0.14%	0.0308
Cl 1.15%	0.2532
Co 0.0004%	0
Cu 0.0001%	0
Mg 0.11%	0.0242
Mn 0.0118%	0.0026
Mo 0.0009%	0
S 0.2773%	0.61
Zn 0.0007%	0
Na 0.13%	0.0286
N 0.07%	0.0154
P	0.001
K	0.068
NO3	0.068
P2O5 0.01%	0.002
PO4	0.003


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## rhiro (Sep 21, 2012)

burr740 said:


> Thanks. It says "Calcium, as Ca" 49.8 ppm and "Magnesium, as Mg" 4.45 ppm.
> 
> ** I was mistaken earlier when I posted 70 and 8, that was from memory. Got confused with tests results done on my water by user PortalMasterRY, into which I'd added a bit of GH booster. Just looked again to be sure.
> 
> ...


How often are you dosing the Flourish Comp and DTPA Fe?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

rhiro said:


> How often are you dosing the Flourish Comp and DTPA Fe?


3x week, alternated with macros


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## rhiro (Sep 21, 2012)

burr740 said:


> 3x week, alternated with macros


Thanks burr. Not sure if you are interested but here is the nutrient concentration you are adding if you are following the recommended dose for 1ml/12 gal for Comp. The first green column is your weekly total.


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## RedDelPaPa (Oct 1, 2005)

Seems to me if EI is done correctly, you should never have more accumulation than double your weekly doses. But you MUST do your weekly 50% water changes and NEVER miss one. So, this should also mean that if your plants do well on EI for a month or more and then turn south, the problem should never be toxicity from accumulation of ferts. Right?


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## Christophe (Oct 23, 2013)

RedDelPaPa said:


> Seems to me if EI is done correctly, you should never have more accumulation than double your weekly doses. But you MUST do your weekly 50% water changes and NEVER miss one. So, this should also mean that if your plants do well on EI for a month or more and then turn south, the problem should never be toxicity from accumulation of ferts. Right?


That's about right.

With all the recent hubbub about micros it's important to recall that EI is not so much a specific dosing regimen carved in sacred stone -- It's really more the concept of providing abundance of nutrients so that even the least competitive of your plants still can always get enough.

What's really the question then is 'What actually constitutes abundance for each nutrient?' There are some baseline guides around, but how well-supported are they? It appears one size does not fit all, for all circumstances. I now kinda think less is more, with regard to micros anyway.


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## damnmosquitoes (Oct 16, 2019)

@burr740 

Hi Burr, old thread I know but couldn't help to ask. After you figured it was csm+b toxicity, you said you dosed fe almost every day, did you dose fe on same days as macros as well?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

For grins and giggles,

1% = 10,000 mg/L. If something's at 0.02% it's in a solution concentration of 200 mg/L or 0.2 mg/mL. One mL of this into 1 liter will get you 0.2 mg/L (ppm). I've found this to be an excellent way to calculate doses as all of our plant nutrients have to be reported in % to comply with fertilizer regulations.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

damnmosquitoes said:


> @burr740
> 
> Hi Burr, old thread I know but couldn't help to ask. After you figured it was csm+b toxicity, you said you dosed fe almost every day, did you dose fe on same days as macros as well?


Wow what a blast from the past! Lol

Yes its fine to dose macros and micros on the same day


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