# 60-P: quest for REDs with LEDs



## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Initial re-do.

*Stats*:
60-P
Used AS
2 x 24" Current Satellite Plus+
Eheim 2213 with factory media + Eheim Jet outflow, cycled
Injected co2

~24 x Ember Tetras
1 x Sunburst Platty (grow out)
1 x male guppy
X x Ramshorn snails

Blyxa Japonica
Baby Tears (HM)
Bacopa caroliniana
Limno
Ambulia
Rotala rotundifolia
Pogostemon erectus
AR mini
Hygrophila corymbosa Angustifolia
Water Sprite (temporary)
Water Lettuce
Amazon Sword "compact"

78°F

Most of the ideas are coming from these current run-away threads:
- Fertilization methods http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/1259481-ideal-phosphate-levels.html
- Red plants under LED http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/1256369-tired-leds-making-my-ar-mini-look-like.html
- Water changes http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/1256258-gla-gro1-regulator-so-disappointed.html

This is work in progress: comments / advise / questions / jokes are welcome.

30% WC with 2 ml Glut 18 + 5 ppm K after the initial planting
Light
- back @ 75% white and max red/green
- front @ 50% white and max blue/green


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

My primary goal is to grow Rotala macrandra under LEDs.

I have some macrandra and mini butterfly in a grow-out tank and I will plant them in this tank in a couple of days, together with
- Nesaea pedicellata "golden"
- Rotala green
- Mayaca
- Hydrocotyle tripartita 'Japan

My other goal is to get anal about water conditions and fertilization, running a tank leaner then EI.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Both lights 3 pm to midnight
CO2 1 pm to 11 pm

+ drop checker + 5 drops of pH test solution

+ 1 O+ tab under sword
re-planted Ambulia with healthier plants (6)
+ 1 Ludwigia mini red top with 4 leaves, half-dead

pH 6.5
GH 5
KH 4

NO3 10
P 0.5

TDS 262

+ 5 ppm K
+ 2 ml Glut


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> My other goal is to get anal about water conditions and fertilization, running a tank leaner then EI.


Nice start to the tank and looking forward to this with great interest.


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## OreoP (Aug 12, 2016)

Following. Is glut primarily used for algae control?


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

OreoP said:


> Is glut primarily used for algae control?


I am not sure, yet. I used Excel on an ad hoc basis before and I have no first hand experience with what it actually does if used on a consistent basis. Using Metrex Metricide 14 because of the glut = clean subliminal association in my head.

That tank has a history going back to 2012 when I used 24" 2 x t5 bulbs. When we moved 150 mi 2 years ago it was one of 3 tanks that I stuffed with plants and fish and moved half-filled. For the last 2 years it remained a dumping grounds for cuttings, hodge podge collection of crypts and a home to Embers. When I pulled the tank apart a couple of weeks ago I was rather surprized at how many crypts a 17g can hold.

The tank in March 2013:




























And in July 2016:


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## voyetra8 (Sep 24, 2010)

OVT said:


> I am not sure, yet. I used Excel on an ad hoc basis before and I have no first hand experience with what it actually does if used on a consistent basis. Using Metrex Metricide 14 because of the glut = clean subliminal association in my head.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




These look great. Hope to see you pull off something similar under LEDS! 

FWIW / I dose 5ml glut in my 60P every day. Since I started doing that, I've had no issues with algae on anything but the top of my hardscape, which easily gets twice the light of the substrate. 

On weekly 50% water change I dose 10ml. 

It's definitely the most "algae-free" I've ever had the tank, so I'm afraid to stop using it. I push CO2 hard as well. 

I'm dosing baseline EI, but honestly I'm not experienced to know if I should adjust up or down. 

All of that said... I had a 45P full of UG that I never dosed glut, and it was also spotless. (Although I just pulled all the UG and switched to glosso.) 

So maybe it's not the glut, but experience keeping things algae free... I'm too afraid to find out.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

The drop checker is yellow right before lights out and 1 hr after co2 is off. A bit surprising. Slight pearling on R. rotundifolia, none on water sprite or other plants. A couple of older leaves on Amazon Sword do not look that hot, but the roots were trimmed before planting.

My biggest concern is surface film and somewhat cloudy water. I am seeing particulate mater in the water column (recycled AS?), but the color is reminiscent of uncycled tank. Filter intake/outflow are on the oposite sides of the tank and I need to change that and to re-cut the filter tubing. Give it another week or so before cleaning the filter.

I have no 1/2" Lilly pipes and this looks tempting: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018HRFIZ4/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=AJOA880DXV3BM

co2 is at marker 7 on the valve
TDS 254, virtually unchanged from 2 days ago.
*Water changes*:
- at, say, 275 TDS or
- 1 - 2 weeks or
- NO3 > 20
Interested to see what triggers first and how it will change over time.

ph 6.5
KH 5
KNO3 10
P 0.5

*New plants*:
- more R. rotundifolia
- several melting Ludwigia mini red rejects
- a bit of Hydrocotyle tripartita 'Japan'
- 1 x 1" P. erectus


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

The current state of affairs:


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## voyetra8 (Sep 24, 2010)

Looking good!



OVT said:


> My biggest concern is surface film and somewhat cloudy water.



Since you don't yet have pipes, you should consider one of the combo lily intake / skimmers. I just started using one and it's amazing to see the gunk the top skimmer collects. Hard to get a good shot of it, but see if you can see the brown biofilm in this... frame center:









It's this one: Glass Lily Pipe Inflow with Surface Skimmer for Aquarium Planted Tank (17mm for 16/22mm (5/8'') tubing) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LWSEEBD?ref=yo_pop_ma_swf 

Also noticed it seems you aren't running your red channels... what's your thinking?


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

@voyetra8: thanks for the link and the recommendation, I'll check it out.



> Light
> - back @ 75% white and max red/green
> - front @ 50% white and max blue/green


I want to start at the lower end and ramp it up slowly. The plants in the back are taller and will be mostly rotalas (more red) and I want the plants mid / front to grow in (more blue). Logical? Maybe. Will that work? Only one way to find out.


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## voyetra8 (Sep 24, 2010)

OVT said:


> @voyetra8: thanks for the link and the recommendation, I'll check it out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ohhhh, I missed that the back LED had the red pumped up. Disregard.  

I just posted video of the skimmer in action... makes it more clear what it's doing: https://youtu.be/VHpb7psy-VU


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

This tank is taking a lot of time. Still looks flat, hopefully when plants reach their full size I can increase the depth perception.
The plants are growing for sure, aromatica is getting taller and AR mini is rooting nicely. Not much color on R. rotundifolia. Almost none on aromatica. The next plant in will be rotala mini.

- Added black background
- Build up substrate at back corners
- Added a small driftwood and twigs as a future home for C. habrosus
- Bumped back and front lights one notch

- Re-planted Bacopa (was held down by plant weights)
- Added remaining H. japan at foreground
- First trim of Ambulia
- Moved aromatica closer together to make room for more plants
- Planted R. green (I think)
- Planted Mayaca
- Planted R. macrandra

TDS 283 yesterday
TDS 299 today -> 30% WC
NO3 5
P 0.5

Top:










Front:




























Interesting to see how rotala changes growth from one tank to another:


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Bumping co2 up a bit was not such a good idea - all fish are at the surface with red gills in < 2 hours.

Note to self: don't rush it and it's too easy to kill all fish with a slight turn of the knob.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Rotala mini does not look like much:










Rotala macrandra started to pearl:










And the long-time residents are alive and well:


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

The tank is now 2 weeks old. The plants are now pearling later in the evening but still not much color.
I am seeing spots of diatoms on H. japan and Amazon.

- Moved some stones around, replacing the far right with a taller one
- Bumped both lights one notch

- Trimmed water sprite, some rotala, and HM
- Removed some old outside leaves from Amazon sword
- Planted 2 tops of Nesaea pedicellata 'golden' (all that I got left from emerged conversion)

- Re-homed Sunburst Platty with her kin. She promptly ended on the carpet a day later.
- Moved in C. habrosus from a holding tank. I put in 6, pulled out 8.
- Moved in a Dwarf Gourami from another holding tank. He seems to be a shy, timid guy, for now.

My stocking is now complete. Maybe add 2 - 4 Amanos later.

TDS 305 -> 40% WC, TDS after is 276, so far, looks like 5 days between WCs
NO3 5
P 0.5 (got to watch this)










Cories checking out the new home:









Embers hanging together:


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Water parameters are holding steady:

TDS 302
NO3 5
P 0.25

Some terrestrial moss like algae developing on the rocks and still some diatoms here and there.

No red color on aromatica and the new growth on Ambulia has much longer internodes. HM is holding still while in an EI-rich environment I would have trimmed it at least once by now. Rotala macrandra has decent, not gread, pink tops and is about to breach the surface. I will let it trail across the top before trimming. The Golden is holding on and is actually showing some signs of life. If it continues to grow then I'm interested to see when and if it starts developing black spots on lower leaves.

With the current flow and temperature the tank is at max on co2 but the 2 Satelight+ are not maxed out on white. Visually, the tank is the brightest (and the cleanest) in the house. Can I push the light higher with lean dosing? That still remains to be seen.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Planting 1/4" stems is a pain.

Some fuzzy green hair algae on the back wall and AR is looking worse. Could not grow it well before either.
Trimmed ambulia, bacopa, and HM. Added more plants.

TDS 332 -> WC










Tiny:










Tank boss is checking my workmanship:










Rotala is getting taller and pink-er, but meh:


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Alot of healty plants from Liquid Creations. The space for blyxa and other "pedestrian" plants is now at a premium. I am still arranging and re-arranging, pulling and adding, but this is where I stopped for the day.

A bonus find: 2 Panda Cory fry! They must have hitchiked on plant leaves as eggs, as I do not have Panda Cories in this tank.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

The tank is getting overgrown and I had to remove / trim a bunch of plants. The recently added red plants are loosing color.
Nitrates are at 0 for the first time, added 2.5 ppm.

TDS 301 -> 40% water change
N 0
P 0

Harvest:










Had to remove the 3 largest L. aromatica to make room for trimmed and re-planted R. macrandra. I already miss them as they gave more lushiness and illusion of depth. These macrandra trimmings went in instead:










The color is not that great but at least it's getting some:










The new growth on new red plants is loosing color:



















The current state:










60-P is a great tank and I am enjoying it, but it is small for a lot of plant species and keeping a larger collection is becoming a challange. It's future direction is still unclear: a scape or a plant farm? Likely to end up being both.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Thanks for sharing the update, I am enjoying watching and reading about the progress!


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## ChrisAZ (Sep 13, 2013)

The plants look like they had much deeper vivid color with the original fluorescent light. What’s your opinion on the difference between it and the led your using now?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Plants are growing, some too much. No room for Amazon compact.
Trimmed H.japan as it was getting taller then the surrounding plants.

TDS 321 -> WC
NO3 < 5 ppm
P 0


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)




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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Did you mean to put N02 (NITRITE) @ 5ppm? Are you saying phosphate is at zero? Do you dose iron? 
I don't know what the "minimum" is but I try to keep nitrate over 20ppm and no higher than say 40 or 50 tops. Looks nice and dense though with lots of plant mass.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

@The Dude1: my bad, I ment NO3.

Phosphates are at 0 and I am trying to keep Nitrate < 5 ppm. I am having a hard time getting the reds I want with the LEDs I have. I started this tank about a month ago with specific plants and very lean dosing to see if I can get more red from different plants with limited Nitrogen. I do not dose extra iron besides whats in CSM+B.

As you can see from the pictures, no success yet.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

You're going to have a hard time trying to get good red colors out of a standard LED. There's a reason why all the best Dutch tanks use T5s...


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Before I spend another $250+ on yet another light, I want to prove to myself that I have no other choice if I want those colors. I might even decide that what I am getting out of these plants with the current lights is good enough for me.

My secondary goal is to prove to myself that EI does not make a difference under certain conditions. I've used EI since I discovered TPT and I have a pretty good idea what I can grow with it under 6 x 48" t5s. I know that I can grow stems at some 6" per week in rainbow of colors, cut the top 6" and replace the algae at the bottom in time for another picture. Even though I understand the ideas behind EI, the process of adding, say 40 ppm of N a week only to dump it down the drain the same week rubs me the wrong way.

BUT before I call it a day, I have a lot of 24" fixtures that I can "upgrade" to while keeping this tank lean. I'm in no rush.

I can mix and match:

4 x Satelite Plus
2 x Satelite PRO

or even write off all the $$$ I spent on LEDs, declare myself ignorant and stupid and go back to

2 x 1 t5ho
2 x 2 t5ho

I am already running 4 LED fixtures on a 18" cube and I wonder how many LED and t5 I can mount on a single 60P.

Place your bets.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

I used to be an LED lover until I realized that most of the available units are really not good for plant growth. I was actually getting more algae with LEDs than T5. The thing that made me switch was having Rotala butterfly in two tanks. One was my 120 gallon display tank - pampered, dosed regularly (with leanish dosing, much less than EI but higher than the microtox folks), lit by LEDs. The other was a 5 gallon farm tank where I thought I got rid of all the Rotala but some grew back. Low CO2 (1 bps), no dosing for 2 months, completely neglected tank,lit by a CFL. Both tanks had similar PAR at sediment.

The butterfly in the pampered 120 had poor color and small form. The ones in the neglected farm tank were gorgeous - full-leaved and blood red. I can upload pictures if you'd like.


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## ChrisAZ (Sep 13, 2013)

I’ve done A LOT of reading but in my actual experience plants grown under fluorescent and MH have been far superior to plants under common leds. I have seen a lot of pictures of richly colored plants under more complex multi colored chip led units like BML but then again these were just pictures posted by marketing departments. I just haven’t seen consistently good results with most white x r/b/g mass market led fixtures.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

I've been enjoying this thread. I like the experiment, and have been hoping someone would try this whole lean dosing nitrate starvation concept. I know what it does for me, which is starving plants and algae. 

But that's not to say it can't work, I've just not seen it here much other than with Dennis Wong. Will be looking forward to seeing how this turns out longer term, and if you can find a sweet spot.

As to T5, it's my personal choice. Just don't know if there are too many LED fixtures that can equal a good T5 set up. At least at a reasonable price that is.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Oh... nitrate starvation. I've heard of that. Interesting. 
I also have my own conclusions on T5HO vs LED's. I have 3 high tech tanks. 2 with LED's. The other was my "junk" tank with my old Catalina 3 * 48" T5HO. The T5 tank just blows away the other 2... in fact when plants are on their last leg for whatever reason they go into the T5 tank and grow like never before and once again become gorgeous plants.... that I try to sustain in my LED tanks. I just kind of accepted it. Instead of replacing the LED fixtures and eating the losses I promised to do T5's on my new 265 display tank. Funny thing is both LED tanks have a high power LED fixture and a RGB fixture... didn't seem to make any difference. It makes it easy though. 2 48" 4 bulb fixtures... done.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Plants are rapidly growing. The Amazon compact split into 2 and I removed one with 12 leaves and trimmed the remaining one to 4 leaves. Removed all Ambulia, most of R. rotundifolia, some L. aromatica, and Bacopa. Trimmed the rest.

R. colorata and A. bonsai are starting to show decent colors on the tops.

The tank before maintenance:










What went out:










TDS 308 -> 40% WC
NO3 0
P 0.25










After stem hacking:


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

*Note on Pictures*: all pictures in this thread have been taken with Samsung Galaxy S8+ in low embient light, then 50% resized using Photo & Picture Resize app, and then uploaded to TPT hosting.

L. red (the reddest I ever had it) got trimmed and replanted in the back right corner.
Moved L. aromatica "mini" from 90H and it promptly started to melt.
Planted the only stem of L. Cuba I have. It has been floating in this tank for about a month.
Had to pull some Blyxa to make extra room.
H. Japan got trimmed yet again.

I am certainly learning more about which plants look better next to what other plants, what leaf shapes and sizes contrast, differences in color shades, and plants' growing patterns. Most of my learning is by trial and error and many a time I replanted a stand and did not like the results. But I do enjoy the process and now have even higher regard for patience and dedication such scapes demand.

The next two major changes under consideration are:
- adding a red 3w LED spot light, most likely over the back left corner
- switching to @burr740 's micro mix
I plan to make these changes at least two weeks appart to isolate their individual effects.

Yet another trim:










Some colors:



















The current state of affairs:


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> Oh... nitrate starvation. I've heard of that. Interesting.
> I also have my own conclusions on T5HO vs LED's. I have 3 high tech tanks. 2 with LED's. The other was my "junk" tank with my old Catalina 3 * 48" T5HO. The T5 tank just blows away the other 2... in fact when plants are on their last leg for whatever reason they go into the T5 tank and grow like never before and once again become gorgeous plants.... that I try to sustain in my LED tanks. I just kind of accepted it. Instead of replacing the LED fixtures and eating the losses I promised to do T5's on my new 265 display tank. Funny thing is both LED tanks have a high power LED fixture and a RGB fixture... didn't seem to make any difference. It makes it easy though. 2 48" 4 bulb fixtures... done.



Hey.. 
Be a bit fair here.. What LED fixtures?
Try switching lights over tank not plants..  Re confirmation..

See funny thing for me is between the 40 and 55 if a plant isn't doing good in the 55.. goes to the 40 to "pump it" up..
Both are LED..

Same bunch, split between the 40 and 55.. planted the same time
55 has some issues I have yet to figure out but PAR and CO2 isn't one of them..
55 does have moveable pucks but used the Seneye to confirm both the 55 and 40 were relatively close in PAR at the target zone (that plant).

Not going to pretend that each tank has only one variable.. both have many..










Actually if you asked me which gets fertilized more I'd say the 55.. 40 gets practically nothing but a few root tabs and micros..

55 is begging for a complete tear down and re-build.. I blame the Turface actually (high CEC).. Flourite/rotten granite mix is much more err.. "stable" apparently..for me.

Bottom line for "me".. it ain't the light..alone.YMMV


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

jeffkrol said:


> Hey..
> Be a bit fair here.. What LED fixtures?
> Try switching lights over tank not plants..  Re confirmation..


As per my posts, there are 2 Current Satellite Plus fixtures, with white channels at 50% and 75%.
Where do you see me switching plants on you? I list 95% of my steps.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

OVT said:


> A. bonsai are starting to show decent colors on the tops.


A. bonsai?


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

MCFC said:


> A. bonsai?


A. bonsai aka "true rotala indica" aka "Rotala 'Bonsai' " aka "Ammania Sp. Bonsai"

Botanists are better make up their minds as I am getting confused myself from one year to another. 

Rotala 'Bonsai' - Tropica Aquarium Plants

@jeffkrol: I am not the one to tell you that both your 40 and 55 have issues, many issues. Maybe get them each a watch?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

OVT said:


> As per my posts, there are 2 Current Satellite Plus fixtures, with white channels at 50% and 75%.
> Where do you see me switching plants on you? I list 95% of my steps.



What I meant is if one LED tank is floundering.. moving the t5 to it would confirm..


so you have 100% of 150 W (approx) of 90Lumens / W tubes over a tank vs the satellites.. Est wattage of your satellites per tank


Point is if you have 60W of LEDs vs 150+ watts of tubes. it is NOT the LED's that are at fault.. 



So to clarify you have 2 sat pluses per tank?


.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

OVT said:


> A. bonsai aka "true rotala indica" aka "Rotala 'Bonsai' " aka "Ammania Sp. Bonsai"
> 
> Botanists are better make up their minds as I am getting confused myself from one year to another.
> 
> Rotala 'Bonsai' - Tropica Aquarium Plants


Thank you! But as a Forester I can tell you botanists will never make up their minds... because then they would be out of a job!!


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

OVT said:


> A. bonsai aka "true rotala indica" aka "Rotala 'Bonsai' " aka "Ammania Sp. Bonsai"
> 
> Botanists are better make up their minds as I am getting confused myself from one year to another.
> 
> ...



Naah I know that... Point was the difference between same plant, different environments.. about the same light intensity.

40B is horrible isn't it?









55 was decimated by BBA not too long ago..


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

jeffkrol said:


> so you have 100% of 150 W (approx) of 90Lumens / W tubes over a tank vs the satellites.. Est wattage of your satellites per tank
> 
> Point is if you have 60W of LEDs vs 150+ watts of tubes. it is NOT the LED's that are at fault..


 @jeffkrol: you are confusing the heck out of me with your posts, and not for the first time. I have no idea if the above comments relate to the tank in this journal, to some other semi-random situation, or even anything at all. Given, I am behind on my reading comprehension.



jeffkrol said:


> So to clarify you have 2 sat pluses per tank?


To clarify: this specific tank has 2 x 24" Model 4006 of these: https://current-usa.com/aquarium-led-lights/satellite-led-fixtures/satellite-freshwater-led-plus/, where each is rated at 18 watts max.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

OVT said:


> @*jeffkrol*: you are confusing the heck out of me with your posts, and not for the first time. I have no idea if the above comments relate to the tank in this journal, to some other semi-random situation, or even anything at all. Given, I am behind on my reading comprehension.
> 
> 
> 
> To clarify: this specific tank has 2 x 24" Model 4006 of these: https://current-usa.com/aquarium-led-lights/satellite-led-fixtures/satellite-freshwater-led-plus/, where each is rated at 18 watts max.



not sure what is so hard to figure out.. you stated your plants recovered when placed over 150W of light vs 18(36)(and not run at 100% to boot).. Doesn't take a genus to figure that out..


Maybe I'm not understanding you..

Sh!t.. this is all for "the dude"..



> I also have my own conclusions on T5HO vs LED's. I have 3 high tech tanks. 2 with LED's. The other was my "junk" tank with my old Catalina 3 * 48" T5HO. The T5 tank just blows away the other 2... in fact when plants are on their last leg for whatever reason they go into the T5 tank and grow like never before and once again become gorgeous plants....


SEE who I quoted in post #35.. This has nothing to do w/ you..


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

jeffkrol said:


> Sh!t.. this is all for "the dude"..


Exactly. You are mixing up a reply by @Dude1 on his experience with my posts and my journal.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

OVT said:


> Exactly. You are mixing up a reply by @*Dude*1 on his experience with my posts and my journal.


"I" didn't mix him up you did.. then I followed stupidly..

When people make statements like this w/ missing facts, I get curious..


> I also have my own conclusions on T5HO vs LED's. I have 3 high tech tanks. 2 with LED's. The other was my "junk" tank with my old Catalina 3 * 48" T5HO. The T5 tank just blows away the other 2.


but I did need to followup a bit on this one:


> @jeffkrol: I am not the one to tell you that both your 40 and 55 have issues, many issues. Maybe get them each a watch?


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Sorry about that. I suppose it would make sense to only discuss the OP's tanks in his thread. There was a thread about the LED vs T5 comparisons. I may have confused the two. Sorry about that!


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

The Dude1 said:


> Sorry about that. I suppose it would make sense to only discuss the OP's tanks in his thread. There was a thread about the LED vs T5 comparisons. I may have confused the two. Sorry about that!



Yea me too.. Actually thought we were still in a "lighting " thread..


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

No harm, no foul.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Another day, another trim. A good reminder that once the plants are growing, the next challange is how to slow them down.

The tank is getting more overgrown day by day and I am now growing more algae then I can sell. My take is that circulation is way down, especially closer to the bottom. I am also realizing that the tank gets some 8 - 10 hours of extra light a weeks as I tend to play with after lights out.

As much as it pained me, pulled out some 7 Blyxa and 5 L. aromatica and most of Bacopa caroliniana. As I am getting good color out of aromatica, it no longer belongs in this tank. And it does get large. The front was getting too tall and some 50% of Pogostemon Erectus had to get exiled.

I pulled, trimmed, and replanted most of R. macrandra as it wrapped itself all the way around the top of the tank, impeding curculation in that region also.

TDS 323 -> 30% WC

N = 0
P = 0.25

I am getting a feeling that some plants are getting more brittle, if not more colorfull. With this WC I am starting to add 5 ppm of NO3 per week and see if the plants get sturdier.

Dosed
5 ppm KNO3
0.5 ppm P
2 ml Metro 14

Continue to dose 5 ppm of K daily.

Part of the trim (now on WTS thread):










After trim (macrandra and some HM still on plant weights):


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## saiko (Mar 30, 2007)

This is a great thread! thank you for regular updates. I am really impressed by the thick Aromatica stem you have there.

what is the tap TDS like? Also what is your tank temperature like please?


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

@saiko: thank you for the encouragement.

Tap 's TDS is 262 +/- 5

The temperature was set at 78°F with in-tank heater. I pulled it out for the summer as the house's temperature stays within 78-80 with AC and I wanted more room for the plants. The plan is to plumb in an inline Hydor 200W heater if I can fit it out of sight.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

6/23/2018 - cleaned filter. The flow now is substantially higher and I closed the outflow by 25%. The improved flow + dirty diffuser resulted in loss of 0.2 drop in pH.
The usual maintenance: trim, move, re-plant, repeat.

After some 2 months of running this tank at close to 0 NO3, I am upping the residual N to 5 ppm.

Back light - 100%
Front light - 75% white

TDS 323 -> WC + up NO3 to 5%
NO3 0 (before water change)
P 0.25

Ludwidgia Red is looking good, top to bottom:










Blyxa is growing:


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Personally, I dont think light is going to make a big difference (T5 vs LED) as long as nutrients are so limited. 

Is this the tank you're dosing .1 csmb 3x week? Think you'd be amazed what an extra 10-15 ppm NO3 and a dash more P would do as far as color and general...robustness

I may have to try one of those mini amazon swords, I like that. Does it really stay small??


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

@burr740: Yes, this is the tank. Good size for me to play with and to learn from.

I started with a reasonable minimum of everything on purpose. With potential exception of co2, the tank is not maxed out on light, macros / micros. circulation, etc etc. This gives me an opportunity to slowly bump up one aspect at a time and judge the results for myself. Once I max the current lights, I'll switch over to your micro mix. After that, macros. If I am still not happy with the results, I'll move on to more powerful LEDs and start another co2/macros/micros/circulation circle. And so on until I either get plants like yours or run out of ideas.

I've had these Amazon "compact" plants for about 3 months now, both in high and low tech tanks. Height wise, they do stay well under 12". In high light tanks they tend to spread the leaves closer to the substrate. In low light tank the growth is more vertical but still relatively wide. Overall, they still occupy less real estate then, say, Echinodorus parviflorus 'Tropica'. From what I've seen, Echinodorus Kleiner Prinz is another small sword contender, but the one I got seems to have been mis-identified and grew into a huge sword in under a month.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

What annoys me in this whole thing is the fact that plants get deeper color the closer they get to the light, be it t8, t5, LED, or a candle.

Same tank, same light - closer to light, more color. Hard to explain it away with ferts or spectrum. If it is not the light intencity then what? And that's my quest.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

It's the light intensity.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> What annoys me in this whole thing is the fact that plants get deeper color the closer they get to the light, be it t8, t5, LED, or a candle.
> 
> Same tank, same light - closer to light, more color. Hard to explain it away with ferts or spectrum. If it is not the light intencity then what? And that's my quest.


In my experience, it's mostly the light.

And I'm not doubting the Dennis Wong approach, just haven't seen anyone here copy it and have the same success.

Something I've always wondered about the starvation method.....is it sustainable? Do they bring out peak color for photos? Then how long can you keep plants on the brink? And how many plants does it work with? Take some Pantanal or L. Cuba and I'm pretty sure they starve and die. Maybe why you don't see some of those plants in those tanks.

Don't understand it all, but interesting nonetheless. Great experiment. Look forward to seeing where it goes for you.


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## voyetra8 (Sep 24, 2010)

The good old inverse square law is why your plants are getting deeper colors the closer they get to the light. 

The closer they get to the light, the more significant getting closer becomes. It's exponential!

Somewhat related: You have a PM.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Bookmark: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11082747-post18.html

Keeping to the same maintenance and dosing regime for 2 months is a long enough horizon for me. To recap:

2 ml Metro 14 daily
5 ppm K daily

WC and trim when TDS > 300 results in 40% WC every 5 to 7 days

Testing every 2 - 3 days shows consistent NO3 = 0 P = 0.25

Feeding the same food once daily at the same time, skip Friday

Both lights are on the same timer, 3 pm to midnight
co2 on a separate timer, 1 pm to 11 pm, pH testing at 1 am at 6.6 +/- 0.2, same working pressure, same setting on Ideal Vernier at 7

On 6/23 I lost my nerve and added 5 ppm of (K)NO3. Today, a week later, NO3 still tests at 5 ppm. 0 uptake.

-> Given that the plants are growing and looking at least decent to my eye, *what are they eating*? The plants are laughing at my N starvation diet.

The AquaSoil is some 4 years old and has been washed at least 2 times. A single O+ root tab for the Amazon 2 months ago at initial planting. The filter got completely scrubbed a week ago. *NH4+?* Given that the pH crosses 7 twice a day in this tank, ammonium is my next suspect.

Looking at @Xiaozhuang tank, I see maybe a dozen white clouds in ~50g tank. That would put my fish load at x 2-3 of his in a 17g tank (~ x 2.5). Let's assume that the plants get to ammonium before the bacteria. I could replace the filter with a powerhead to up the plants' dibbs, but that seems like an overkill. Pulling or starving the fish to get more color out of the plants is not the right trade-off for me. Using more Prime or adding chem media like ammo lock will do nothing for NH4.

For now, the idea of nitrogen starvation, in all its usable forms, is hitting the next brick wall.
Let's tag @Edward.

Unless there are other recommendations, my plan is to switch to @burr740 custom micro mix, keeping everything else the same. With potentially higher Fe / other micros ratios / availability, the macro uptake just might up-tick also.

*Bump*: with the PHP issues on the forum, I am having difficulties replying to @Greggz and @voyetra8, but I will.


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

Plant starvation ? You guys like to use exaggerated terms. Neither do you get "unlimited" growth by dosing more (i.e. EI), you just get relatively faster growth. Growth is always limited, whether by CO2 or N or natural growth speeds - the point is how do you control the growth factors, and how low is low for a certain specie.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Well, thank you @Xiaozhuang for the picture and your reply.

At the moment, I am not focusing on limiting the plant growth but on getting closer to your colors. What in your reply can I practically use to achive that goal?


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

Nothing... In your case, probably changing the lights would make the difference. Fiddling about with minor variables looking for incremental improvements isn't going to do much.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

@Xiaozhuang what level of PAR in the pic you posted above (Would quote but no can do).

Beautiful colors. And is that Aquasoil or inert?

And plant starvation was probably wrong way to phrase it. But isn't N limitation one of the methods for bringing out the color in some of your plants? Trying to learn, and as usual you set the bar high.


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

I don't have a PAR meter... but its 8 tubes of T5 over an ADA90p 90x45x45cm (about 46gallons), so that's quite a bit.

I'm using aquasoil... I don't have tanks with inert substrates, except for portions that has sand for cosmetic purposes. I'm a strong subscriber to the concept that soil makes it easier to grow most plants - and allows a lot more room to play with water column wise; hungry plants will just devote more energy to root growth to attain their nutrient needs and there is some level of self-regulation/self preservation in that sense. This allows different types of plants with different needs to grow well even if the water column was low N.

Low N doesn't produce better red in all species; it does significantly in some (Rotala rotundifolia, ludwigia arcuata/brevipes, H. pinnatifida etc) and has not much impact on others (L. pantanal, AR). However, the baseline plant health cannot be too far off either; here I see many other issues with baseline plant health in this thread - not necessarily related to nutrient levels.... (AR, P. erectus are in bad form even though they are all not very heavy feeders, algae on L. aromatica even though it is an easy plant to keep in good health, old growth on macrandra very curled, odd tips on Rotala rotundifolia and patchy coloration - and definitely not displaying any nitrate limitation situation; in those cases new leaves will be much redder rather than green[see exhibit below], also generally elongated internodes with very little branching in plants that should branch). I don't agree with all the super low PO4 levels.... if anything, macrandra favors more of it. (If one wants to N limitation, then having higher K/PO4 levels relative to N makes sense - you get faster N limitation effects more visibly). Trace/Fe issues ? perhaps... but one thing is for sure, there is more stuff that needs to be examined. If not committed to buying a new light set, borrow a fixture of 2 weeks should be enough to verify whether it is the main impact factor.

The one non-equipment related change that I can suggest safely is that trimming should be done more regularly. If an in-tank diffuser is used; plants blocking path of flow also affects effectiveness of the device.

New shoots of RR under lean N conditions


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

So 8 tubes of T5 over a 45cm (17.75") tall tank.

I have to guess pushing 200 PAR at the substrate? 

Whatever it is, more than I would know what to do with.

You also have mentioned that with tanks like this you keep them uber clean. I know what that means to me, but imagine that means something else to you? 

And do you think a tank like that is attainable/sustainable long term for the average home hobbyist? I know @OVT is trying to duplicate it, and so far medium success. Wondering why we don't see more (on this site) trying to duplicate your methods?


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

Its not my methods. The fact is that most the world does not use EI. Think about that for a moment. Every commercial system out there from Tropica to Dennerle to seachem to ADA have dosing levels less than 1/5 or 1/10 of EI levels. Most of Asia and Europe do not use EI. If you look at ADA gallery or tanks on Tropica's site, to large public aquariums like Amano's exibition in Lisbon etc... they are all grown using much leaner methods than even what I run on my tank. Amano build his entire career dosing less than 1/10 EI in any tank. ADA's gallery's macrandra grows just fine - not the deepest reds, but no deformed matured growth as well. 

This does not mean that those systems are better or more optimal than EI for plant growth - it just shows that most of the world grows most plants fine through much leaner methods than folks on this forum like to believe. Some plants species grow better in those tanks and some do worse. Plants are actually pretty flexible within a large range of nutrient values, though adaptation can take time and depend on other variables. The main problem here is once again nutrient tunnel vision - and this is something EI folks are addicted to more so than any other users in the rest of the world - the idea that any small twitch in X nutrient must be responsible for any and all causes in changes to plant health/growth/color/quality. 

Stems from ADA gallery


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

@Xiaozhuang thank you for the thoughtful response.

Agree with you that thinking any little twitch in X nutrients must be responsible for everything. I've always felt an awful lot has to be going right before small changes in ferts will make much difference. A more holistic approach will have greater impact for sure. Guessing that's true for EI and the leaner methods you describe. 

And sorry to hijack your thread OVT, hope it's appropriate for your discussion.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

@Xiaozhuang thank you for your last set of comments - exactly what I was hopping for. The whole idea of this tank is to use mid-range, off the shelf consumer-level LEDs and see what they can do in terms of plant coloration. I do realize that I am racing a Pinto against, say, Ford GT40 of 8-bulb T5 arrays.

I did take the "Nitrogen limitation" idea too literally, way too close to "plant starvation". As Dennis so eloquently pointed out (+ @burr740), plants suffered. The plant health was indeed my concern, as I noted degradation in my prior post. It is still a valuable learning experience for me as I get to see how different plants react. It also helps to illustrate how tanks with the right choice of plants can survive, at least for a while, with no dosing.

@Greggz I hope this answers your prior question: the end result of starvation is death. And do "hijack" this thread to your heart's content. 

This tank is 2 months old today and it went through a heavy trim last night. Unfortunately, I cannot upload images via TPT's hosting due to ongoing TPT website issues. Please stay tuned.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)




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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

`Wee'elll.. since you opened the door for hijacking ... 

I hope you don't mind that I'm not @Greggz.. and excuse the messy tank in dire need of a good trim.

We have "mid-range" LEDs but as @jeffkrol would love to point out, don't forget that the RGBs are fully adjustable and it means a whole lot on how the reds "show." I mean heck, it's sort of the reason that @burr740 fiddles so much with his different bulbs. 

This is high green, high red, near max whites for midday sun and growth push: 










But this is my "evening setting" of high blue, high red and lower whites.










Same camera (phone) with its default coloring profiles.


@OVT, 

I feel the best way to post pics from google is to share photo from album, get link, paste it into the browser, then right click on image and copy image address and paste into browser again, you should then get a lh3.googleusercontent.com randomized link that's reusable on a forum. paste that image address into the insert image button on the post and it'll show up like what you see for my images. Sort of a cruddy workaround after they got rid of picasa .. but .. I guess it works for now.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

@ipkiss thanks! You are saving me hours I would not have invested in dealing with technical stupidity. I'm too busy laughing my brains out.

As @jeffkrol keeps pointing out, RGB are "woefully underpowered" on run of the mill LED fixtures. I decided to take pictures of the tank in its usual opperating mode, with all the warts and all the beauty. The people who bothered to read my first post get what I am doing.

One of the things that got re-in forced for me in this exercise is summed in my patented and copyrighted

*
OVT's Tank Recipe #1*
x 20 Blyxa Japonica - $10
x 10 Ludwidgia mini red - $10
Add AS + cheapo LED + co2
Mix up, add 15g of water

You are done. Take pictures.

Screw fertilization, screw t5s, screw trimming, screw water changes, screw algae. Guaranteed success for 2 months. I can sell this at Walmart.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

In addition, I recommend that you go 'as seen on tv' channel too! Make an ad with kitschy X's on impossibly elaborate "wrong ways" to do it, start with a value of 500 and talk your way down that we're practically GIVING this away because of our latest discovery and finally, for a limited time, you get not 1 but TWO! for 5 easy payments of 39.95, I think it'll sell!


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> RGB are "woefully underpowered" on run of the mill LED fixtures.


Actually that is more for the plus pro than the sat plus..
20White 9 RGB 30W
Would be surprised if the RGB each were driven by more than .2W where the whites are much higher..



48White 24RGB 18W
All are probably about .2W

Other people have commented on the low "range" of the sat plus pro in re: to colors.. 

for those keeping score the old fashioned way:
2.11WPG vs 8WPG...
Even considering the greater geometric efficiency of LED's .. never had a chance..


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

This tank is 2 months old today. To re-gain some of my self-respect:

Day 1:









2 Months later, pre-trim:









Top view:










Close-up:



















Trim:










Post-trim:




















2 month observation of no N or P dosing, from worst to best:

- Rotala Japan Red: 1 survivor out of 3, unlikely to make it
- Rotala mini: slowly growing, tiny deformed leaves
- Pogo stelatus: the most rapid visible decline. Grew 2 < 1" sterns into 12+
- Rotala indica: 2 plants disintegrated out of 5, the remaining are not growing, slowly dropping bottom leaves
- Aromatica mini: transplanted 3 melting plants a week ago. 1 remaining
- AR / AR mini: growing very slowly, algae on older leaves (could never grow this plan in any tank)
- Rotala macrandra: tattered lower leaves, deformed older growth, widely variable color
- Pearlweed HM: not as rapid growth as expected. Tops are healthy, older leaves are small
- Bacopa colorata: 2 original < 3" stems, 1 disintegrated, 2 grew to the top. Dull color.
- Rotala rotundifolia: rapid growth, branching, and carpeting. Tops and bottoms are too easy to pull off
- Rotala colorata: similar to rotundifolia, decent pink color approaching the surface
- Rotala green: rapid growth and branching. New growth looks deformed.
- Echinodorus parviflorus 'Tropica': planted a rhizome with 2 melting leaves < 1/2" in diameter. Slowly recovering, 4 healthy leaves.
- Aromatica: dense and rapid growth with good branching. Retains lower leaves.
- Bacopa caroliniana: grew too rapidly and large and had to be removed. Some melt of lower leaves
- Mayaca: very rapid growth and branching. Tops are brittle and seem to turn white
- Hygrophila corymbosa 'Angustifolia': 2 x < 3" stems, slowly outgrowing the tank, 2 trims. Lower leaf melting at the tip, with several tears
- Amazon compact: split into 2 sibling plants. Slow growth, staying small
- Blyxa: as expected, dense with decent branching. Golden tinge on tips.
- Ludwidgia repens: planted 1 2" stem. Reached the suface with large but pale yellow leaves
- Pedicellata golden: planted 1 < 1" stem. Slow growth but steady growth with good color and bottom leaves
- Lindernia rotundifolia variegated: started with 3 < 1" stems, turned into a branching forrest
- Ludwidgia arcuata: 2 x 3" stems rapidly branching with good growth and decent brown color
- Water Sprite: rapid growth and plantets. Remove one stem weekly
- Ambulia: too rapid growth, stunning with multiple trims. Removed.
- Hydrocotyle japan: rapid growth and carpeting. Weekly trim
- Ludwidgia mini red: the winner: the best I ever had. 3 < 3" stems multiplied into 12+, good leaf size, great branching, nice color
- Nymphaea stellata: nice slow growth with multiple stems. Good color.
- Floaters: Water lettuce and Salvinia minima, floaters ..., healthy and rapidly multiplying. Thin out weekly.

And now, I have 7 other tanks to attend to. But I'm not done with this one yet.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Musings on light:


























Bump:


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Something that strikes me is the drop off in PAR as the tank gets deeper.

Assuming those numbers are correct, the most powerful LED Plus Pro goes from 500 PAR at surface to 44 PAR at 24" depth.

That's over a 90% drop in PAR.

For comparison, here are my readings with 4 T5 & 6 T5, just under surface and depth of 29" (heavily influenced by color/brand of bulb).

4 bulbs surface 180, substrate 95, 6 bulbs surface 245, substrate 115.

Is the drop off really that dramatic with those LED's??


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

Is the forum breaking even more?! but that's not a very fair comparison... they are probably cheesing the surface measurement by using a mostly waterproof light to have the light right up against the surface, but if you put a single t5ho close enough to get such a surface reading you would probably wind up with somewhat similar numbers. Without the other 3 to 5 bulbs adding light at depth...

A satellite + is weaker than a single t5ho tube and a + pro is just barely stronger than a single tube of equivalent size (wattage wise, I don't know how efficient currents actually are...)
I suspect they could have similar numbers to yours though if only they stuck another 3-5 + pros on there for the spread for depth measurements... this is an absurd upfront cost for most people (I don't think currents are a good value myself)


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> That's over a 90% drop in PAR.


you are missing the fact that LEDs are lens-ed pseudo point light sources..
Unlike tubes which are relatively (in comparison) uniform over their length..



> wattage wise, I don't know how efficient currents actually are...


Generally speaking in this, "normal" efficiencies are pretty similar in the 90-100Lumens/Watt area for decent diodes and Ballast/tubes...
Over simplification though. Some COBs are easily 50% more efficient than a tube.and again directional. 
Catch is in delivery .. Most LEd are in the 120 degree direction where tubes are everywhere. Even w/ the best reflectors there are losses.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Yes, LEDs have very serious intensity dropoff due to being so focused straight downwards instead of having some photons spread out as is the case with T5s. This means getting good plant density in deep tanks will be a challenge.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Actually that is about the opposite of what I meant.. 

W/ the right lenses and height high PAR at the bottom is much easier than w. T5's..
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/par-from-t5-vs-par-from-led.357812/


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Ludwidgia mini trim in temp storage in another tank:


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

the other tank looks a lot like this tank now...


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

@Wobblebonk, do you mean overgrown? I hate throwing plants away, a psychological condition. I think that tank has fish ... somewhere.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

Hah I'm getting better about that myself but my sumps and some of my "fry tanks" look ridiculous from trying to save too many stems... now if I could stop myself from adding more and more plants.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

@jeffkrol those readings are for the saltwater fixture, correct? The blue heavy spectrum will yield much more PAR than a freshwater spectrum with more yellows and reds, since the former penetrates deep water much more efficiently. Here's a PAR chart for Radion's freshwater fixture. Readings are 24" below the light - even closer to the fixture than those saltwater fixture readings you posted.










I actually was strongly considering the freshwater Radion fixtures but ultimately went for the ATI dimmable T5 fixture. The PAR readings were a bit low to my taste, especially if I wanted to turn down the blue part of the spectrum to match my visual preference, which would lower the PAR even further. Meanwhile, my ATI fixture hung almost 2 feet above the tank produces 120-180 umol of PAR (depending on substrate height) at the bottom of my 24" deep tank. This is with 2 bulbs (red and pink, low PAR) at 100% and the other 6 at 55%. The bluest bulbs I have are 6500K, so my spectrum is not going to lend itself to high PAR in deep water to begin with.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________

Even if LEDs can produce high PAR in an empty test tank, this does not mean they will provide high light in a real tank. However, Radions, with their angular lens design, seem to be better about this. The problem with the vast majority of LEDs is they send light in only one direction: down. If that light ray happens to hit a tall plant or piece of hardscape, then that's it; it's out of commission. This means the light rays reaching lower parts of the tank where there is heavy crowding (lots of hardscape or dense planting) is significantly less. So the plants will not be able to grow very densely before showing poor form and dropped leaves from lack of light.

Contrast this with T5s, where the circular bulbs send light in multiple directions. You have some light rays going more diagonally and to the sides instead of just straight down. Notice that if you hang a T5 vs an LED fixture above the tank at the same height, there will be more light spilling over outside of the tank with the T5 vs the LEDs. What does this mean in the tank? You will have some of the situation I described last paragraph - rays going straight down are blocked by taller objects in the tank. But you have other diagonal light rays coming from all sorts of paths, not getting bounced off tall objects in the tank immediately, and reaching lower parts of dense plantings, meaning lower leaves get more light and the plants can grow more densely in good form without suffering from overt light deprivation.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

most of what you said is correct, (but WAY undefined) except most FW is 120degrees NOT straight down..
At 24" a point light source will "spread" 83" in [email protected] 120 degree angle.
41" @ 12"...24" dia @ 12" @ 90 degrees..



> The PAR readings were a bit low to my taste


 subjective and in part influenced by $/PAR, which is fair but not exactly err "accurate"?



> Meanwhile, my ATI fixture hung almost 2 feet above the tank produces 120-180 umol of PAR (depending on substrate height) at the bottom of my 24" deep tank. This is with 2 bulbs (red and pink, low PAR) at 100% and the other 6 at 55%.


432W compared to 90??? you think that is "fair"?

Take 3-4 Radions, and get back to me on this................ 

a spotlight of any kind will punch more light deeper than a broad source light. That is a simple fact..

Red light attenuation is overplayed at these shallow depths and using "white" light.. Losses yes.

1/2 the red at 1 meter.. 3ft.if I understand this correct.











> At what depth underwater does color disappear?
> 
> Red - 15ft
> orange - 25ft
> ...



considering the beam angle and critical angles hitting glass and refraction actually LED's are much more "efficient" in gathering light in an aquarium than broad angle light sources..

Same reasoning behind good reflectors for tubes vs crummy..



> If that light ray happens to hit a tall plant ...


not really.. back of leaf would look black, they don't .. lots of light goes right through it..or is reflected "up" to it..

https://orphek.com/or-bar-freshwater-planted-led-light/
Take 3-4 of these and it would be a fair test..


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

@Axelrodi202, I am a bit surprised by PAR for t5s posted by @Greggz and @jeffkrol. I need to find a chart by Hoppy where he compares about a dozen t5 fixtures. Using his home-made PAR reader and using a 6-bulb TEK t5 fixture with giesemann bulbs 12" above an 18" deep tank, my readings were ~ 1,000 at surface and ~ 200 at the substrate.

As both @voyetra8 and @jeffkrol pointed out, if LEDs are approximation of point source then the inverse square law applies. The published PAR values for Satellite LEDs at different distances support that assumption, while t5 do not.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

@OVT I think T5 PAR readings are going to vary quite a bit by spectrum (I favor reds and yellows which are not going to transmit as well) and fixture (since cooling and reflector design will have big effects on intensity).


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

a guy with one watch: said:


> a spotlight of any kind will punch more light deeper than a broad source light. That is a simple fact..


Maybe not when the spot is 90w and the tube is 430w, directed into an inclosed space with reflective sides. I think it is even more apples vs oranges when we consider that PAR / area / time is more "important" to us in a, say 36 x 18" footprint vs a 1" square.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

@jeffkrol good point about the wattage. When I was comparing the different options for myself I had more in mind price. $1000 covers the ATI dimmable 8 bulb fixture plus fancy bulbs I can use for several years (in retrospect I should've lurked on reef forums in search of an even cheaper used fixture), basically guaranteeing that I will be getting enough light with some configuration of the bulb intensity. $1050 would buy 3 Radion fixtures. Maybe these could give enough light. But without having the fixtures in hand I'd not be sure that the spread and intensity would be what I want. My eyes really do not tolerate blue-heavy spectrums well, even in what would be considered "normal" light to most. So if I got the Radions I would naturally turn the blues down, yielding much lower intensity at depth than the stated manufacturer values (which are with all colors on at full blast).

At the end of the day I think it is going to be a matter of individual goals. My tank is 24" deep and wide. The spotlight effect of LEDs becomes really pronounced at this depth. All the LEDs I tried (multiple brands) consistently couldn't provide even spread over that width, leading to patchy growth in parts of the tank. This was even with using multiple fixtures. Personally, while punching light deep is one consideration, it's not the only one. I need the light to be distributed broadly across the tank so my hairgrass isn't chlorotic and patchy in the front while lush and verdant in the back. 

In retrospect that need is likely why I am more vocal about T5s over LEDs than most. And Jeff, I will give you that the Radion LEDs do probably have the best designed lens of any freshwater LED on the market. But the vast majority of planted tank LEDs I have bought and used, or seen, do send light very strongly straight down below the diodes with less spread. On a smaller tank like OVT's I do not think it will matter as much. 

But if one is dissatisfied with plant density, form, and coloration, then lighting is a very important variable to consider, including other factors beyond intensity (PAR). I know that with my tank I was driving myself crazy trying to tweak different variables to get better plant growth until I realized my LED lighting was just not providing the spread nor spectrum I needed.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

@Axelrodi202, I totally agree with both of your points on spectrum and reflectors but I am still surprised that the differences are *that* large. It is painful to admit that I might be so out of touch with the (lighting) reality.

Bump:

Unfortunately, I have multiple tanks with different configurations. For this tank, I sort of stacked the deck in my favor by using two lights. A single LED light mounted right on the rim just does not have the spread. I learned that for myself before with my 18" cube, where I ended up using 4 LED fixtures. Ouch.

With my 24" cube, I run out of real estate to add more LEDs. In the end, I ended up with 2 x2 t5 fixtures and 1 LED just so that I could grow stargrass.

( @jeffkrol before you fall off your chair laughing, that was some 5 years ago, before Radions and ilk).

In all of my tanks I also work against the lights because I really like plants trailing across the surface. 
With this one, I need to learn to pay more attention to shading, as I have not seen many / any Dutch with plants taller then the tank.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Alelrodi202 said:


> In retrospect that need is likely why I am more vocal about T5s over LEDs than most. And Jeff, I will give you that the Radion LEDs do probably have the best designed lens of any freshwater LED on the market. But the vast majority of planted tank LEDs I have bought and used, or seen, do send light very strongly straight down below the diodes with less spread. On a smaller tank like OVT's I do not think it will matter as much.


well.. I'm not any less "vocal" about LEDs. 
Thing is some of the "facts" conflate LED per se w/ LED implementation.
2 VERY different things..
Photons are photons.. 

Like the Orphek "tubes".


> The available LED colors are:
> 6300K
> 12,000K
> 410
> ...





> Acrylic Lens choice 120/90/60 degree
> 120 degree – water depth < or = 60 cm / 24″ (default )
> 90 degree – water depth < or = 100 cm / 39″
> 60 degree – water depth < or = 150 cm / 60″


Make any "tube" you like..  STILL restrictive but better..
for fun lots o par..tests








https://orphek.com/about/led-par-test/

lot of the problems came from "industry" tried to sell LED's based on stupidity like 50 W = 300W MH..




OVT said:


> that was some 5 years ago


 decades in LED years.. 
I feel sorrier for reefers who spent $1000's on vaporware so to speak BUT they were really the pioneers..

There is a place for all lighting types, it's power that matters the most.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

does anyone know the part to add to link the quote to a post? i can't remember that bit at all...


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

> [ quote="NAME"][ /quote]


 @Wobblebonk Actually, it does not ;-)


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

yeah you're right...

I'm running probably a ridiculous amount of leds for most people over my 80g right now... or some 75g tanks that noone sees but me  so I don't think it's that weird to be running a whole load of bars heh. You're way more consistent than me 4x currents or whatever while I have like frankensteins monsters.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Actually you need to add it afterwords..I think. test


Jeff said:


> what?


edit quote after posting... PIA

need to post then edit to add a name...
won't "take" w/ name at first, at least for me.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

The LED guru said:


> I feel sorrier for reefers *snip* BUT they were really the pioneers..


Not quite, porn, and then PC gaming, drive the world of technology. Just look inside your monitor / TV.
Hm, hanging a 4K led TV over a tank .. cheaper per led and more control.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

TDS jumped to 403. Hm
NO3 5
P 0.5

+O+ tab for the sword, which is growing more upright. Trimmed off 4 leaves.

I am bumping up both NO3 and P. I certainly see more algae, mostly at the bottom. I am also starting to lose some plants: R. indioca and P. erectus are basically dead. 

Lowered white LEDs on the back light back to 75%. Using the remote, full to off is 20 clicks, 1 click = 5%.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Pre-trim, pre-maintenance. Is this enough "color"?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Pictures can't really tell you much..
There are 2 components of red
1)Actual pigments (easiest to judge w/ clippings and diffuse sunlight at low levels)
2)Expression of said pigments..How much red light is available to be reflected back and how much "glare" (i.e overwhelming brightness) is washing it out for the eye.

When I was playing w/ high blue LEds I was amazed at the difference between the in tank look and the clippings look.
Actually what started me on the road to CRI...


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

TDS @ 395. I expected it to go up with increased fertilization, but not by 30%.

NO3 5 ppm
P 0.5 ppm

Dwarf lily got re-homed, leaving the Amazon compact as the only non-stem plant in the tank. Same old for now: pulled out more Blyxa, trimmed everything but R. macrandra.

Post-trim:


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

TDS 345
N 20
P 0.5

Dosing 5 ppm N and 5 ml Metro 14 daily, 5 ppm N and 1 ppm P 3 times a week, CSM+B 3 times a week.

Another heavy trim and re-plant.

More color and most remaining plants are doing ok:


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

your trim needs a trim! heh


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

OVT said:


> TDS 345
> N 20
> P 0.5
> 
> ...


Just beautiful!!


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Wobblebonk said:


> your trim needs a trim! heh


That made me smile, LOL @ @Wobblebonk. I will always feel plant-poor. Every time I trim I get an anxiety attack, my hands start shaking, and I cut 4" above the intended spot.

There are a number of "special" plants hidden in the tank that make me feel good with the current state. Bacopa colorata (back center) is getting that waxy translucent color I was hopping for. A single tiny Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'Cuba' is now 3 plants and the one in front left is looking promising: nice shape and a tinge of orange. How to keep it from growing out of a 14" tank is going to be interesting. Another tiny stem of Nesaea pedicellata "Golden" is now 3 stems also and is a nice yellow color (no red stem as of yet). The new leaves look a bit deformed though - the jury is still out.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> A single tiny Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'Cuba' is now 3 plants and the one in front left is looking promising: nice shape and a tinge of orange. How to keep it from growing out of a 14" tank is going to be interesting.


I will find it interesting to see how you keep Cuba low like that in a 14" tank. Mine is a an out of control weed. Seems once it gets going you could fill that tank with it in no time. Pretty soon you might start getting 4 or 5 new tops at a time. 

You will need to keep your scissors sharp for several varieties you have in there now. 

Nice tank and have enjoyed following this experiment.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Thank you @Greggz, I've kept Cuba in a 24" cube before and, if not for the tops, I would have never come back to it. We talk about the virieties of rotalas, but how so many diverse plants got lumped into Ludwidgia family is beyound me.

Another Ludwidgia weed of dubious fame is grandulosa. At least the name suits it to a "t". Turns out that the pedestrian repens that I thought I bought is actually grandulosa and I do have a stem of it in this tank. I was watching it for a while, scratching my head, as the leaves are too big but the color looked close enough. Then I looked into my 90H last night and oh my, it is the grandulosa I remember - deep purple and all 3' of it. And I am still out of repens.

Shows you how much I know plants. Not that well, I am afraid.

On the other hand, do you think pantanal next to Cuba in the same 17g tank will be too gaudy? Or should I stick with rotalas?
;-)


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> On the other hand, do you think pantanal next to Cuba in the same 17g tank will be too gaudy? Or should I stick with rotalas?
> ;-)


I keep lot's of showy flowers right next to each other, so I am the wrong person to ask about gaudy.:wink2:

But the same for Pantanal, once it gets going, can grow an inch a day. That will take a lot of management. But I do love it, as no question it is a beautiful unique flower and nothing much quite like it. I would keep it if nothing more than to see what is does in your tank conditions.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

Heh I've got tornado white and panatanal all next to each other in the 80 tight now, 3 ludwigia inclinata verticillatas... though that whole corner is kind of a grow out corner... or supposed to be anyhow but sigh at this rate I should just go ahead and get some other ludwigia inclinatas and try to complete the pokemon collection :/


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Wobblebonk said:


> complete the pokemon collection :/


Or start a pogostemon collection...


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

Pfft that collection is well under way it's just in another tank! (and the sump...) That tanks already got too many needle leafed/la mini leave styled plants as it is

I have a suspicion that the mystery midget stem is a pogostemon or was sold to me as such but I'm not sure if it actually is. But all the pictures of what I think it was sold to me as are much larger, is there a midgetized form of pogostemon meng meng?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Wobblebonk said:


> your trim needs a trim! heh


This made me realize a trend I've been dealing with over the past year, which may be LED or light design related.

I hasten to perform a really deep trim because I know that the shorter stems will take much longer to recover. I am *afraid* to do a deep trim because of how long it will take for the plant mass to return. A significant reduction in plant mass will also change the tank parameters and now you have a moving target.

It may be that the Dennis Wong "secret" is to mount the LEDS at a high vantage with narrow lenses which will reduce the difference in PAR between top of tank and substrate.

I designed my new canopy with this in mind, giving me the ability to mount the LEDs higher, but sadly, the 75g center brace creates major shadowing the higher the lights are, so I still have them mounted near water surface. Maybe the next iteration of this tank I can remove the black plastic and replace it with an acrylic brace.

It seems that commercial led fixtures have best success on shallow and small tanks.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

ChrisX said:


> I hasten to perform a really deep trim


I feel like a word got autocorrected here... but yeah I can understand that. I mostly trim a few plants at a time several days a week so the mass doesn't change that much all at once... 
Also my dosing is probably more irregular than most (Not that I don't dose often but I do way below ei levels and uhh totally just guess at nonsense like I think I need more or less macros TODAY)


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Wobblebonk said:


> I feel like a word got autocorrected here... but yeah I can understand that. I mostly trim a few plants at a time several days a week so the mass doesn't change that much all at once...
> Also my dosing is probably more irregular than most (Not that I don't dose often but I do way below ei levels and uhh totally just guess at nonsense like I think I need more or less macros TODAY)


Oops, you're right, I wasn't even listening to myself type.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

More of the same: hacking plants and bumping ferts up:

TDS 395 (the new normal)
NO3 @ 20 ppm
P @ 0.5 ppm (aiming to hit 1 ppm)










The collection:


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

May be very hard to hit 1 ppm PO4 with ADA Aquasoil in the tank. In my case even dosing 3 ppm a day water column levels never reached more than 0.5, usually closer to 0.25 ppm. In retrospect this was probably from the Aquasoil binding the PO4 out of the water.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Thanks @Axelrodi202 but AS in this tank is around 5 years old. The peak was 5 ppm and it tooksome effort to bring it down.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Interesting. My above anecdote was with two year old AS, but I could definitely see the stuff saturating with a few more years' time.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

Heh are the little bits of dragonstone still in there? Do they really have a purpose at this point?


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Wobblebonk said:


> Heh are the little bits of dragonstone still in there? Do they really have a purpose at this point?


LOLs friend. My wife: "I cannot see the $30 you spend on rocks". Me: "Yeah, I'll get bigger ones next time, start saving".
But they are still in there. Maybe if I put them on top of the plants then we can call it a scape? Currently they are just taking up valuable real estate.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Ludwidgia Cuba and grandulosa got pulled out as they are just too big for the tank. Macrandra is not going anywhere after the last drastic trim.

TDS 403
N 10 - 20 (who can tell those colors apart?)
P 1










Trim:










And now:


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

TDS 345
N 5
P 0.5

I keep bottoming out on ferts.

Before the trim:










The trim ... :










Got to finish later today.


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## jfish043 (Jan 13, 2017)

Nice


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Where do I plant Rotala colorata?


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## lab_fly (May 6, 2018)

This tank is awesome!


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Thank you, it has been a lot of work and learning.
My next quest is posting larger pictures //


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Trimmed, lolz:


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Man that must have been a real jungle before the trim!

Looking good!


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## kaldurak (May 2, 2010)

So how do you feel you are doing in your quest for red with led? Curious because I have a lot of red potential in my tank, and I added an extra plant spotlight (also led and red heavy) over some of my tank and I'm really starting to get some great reds in mine (though still not as stunning as some I've seen under t5ho)


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Gorgeous @OVT. 

My plants are doing well- thank you. 
Especially the Ludwidgia Grandulosa in the geophagus tank. It throwing of some great color.
Even the Limnophilia Cuba has grown- not vigorously, but it has grown despite no CO2. 

I am planning on attending Sacramento Aquarium society presentation next month, November 3rd @ 7:00 pm featuring Gary Lange. Hope to see you there- I have two crypt. "Flamingo" for you.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

@kaldurak, I am pretty happy with the reds on magenta, macrandra, L. Cuba, L. mini red. So, for me, LEDs do reds  Even L. Atlantis is doing well.


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## kaldurak (May 2, 2010)

OVT said:


> @kaldurak, I am pretty happy with the reds on magenta, macrandra, L. Cuba, L. mini red. So, for me, LEDs do reds  Even L. Atlantis is doing well.


Ok, so this guy here is all transitioned tops, but the bottoms are old emmersed growth that I'll be removing today when I top and replant. How does the red look for led only?









It's under a finnex planted + 247 CC and I added a plant grow light spot light above it as well, very red heavy.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## ced281 (Jul 6, 2012)

I personally think blues are better for making your plants red because blues are photosynthesized preferentially by the red photopigments.



kaldurak said:


> So how do you feel you are doing in your quest for red with led? Curious because I have a lot of red potential in my tank, and I added an extra plant spotlight (also led and red heavy) over some of my tank and I'm really starting to get some great reds in mine (though still not as stunning as some I've seen under t5ho)


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## Mike! (Mar 26, 2018)

ced281 said:


> I personally think blues are better for making your plants red because blues are photosynthesized preferentially by the red photopigments.


I've been thinking about this a bit lately. A red plant is reflecting red light because of pigments that are separate from the photosynthetic process. Unless the plant is purely parasitic or carnivorous, it still has chlorophyll and is still somewhat green under all that red.

The one obvious effect of generating red-reflecting pigments is that the plant _reflects red light_. So maybe a potentially red plant actually turns red for the purpose of reflecting red light. It would following then that emphasizing blue light would not necessarily bring out the reds.

On the other hand, maybe those pigments are a by-product of an adaptation that serves another purpose, but since it can't absorb the red light, it needs all the blue light it can get.


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## ced281 (Jul 6, 2012)

Mike! said:


> I've been thinking about this a bit lately. A red plant is reflecting red light because of pigments that are separate from the photosynthetic process. Unless the plant is purely parasitic or carnivorous, it still has chlorophyll and is still somewhat green under all that red.
> 
> The one obvious effect of generating red-reflecting pigments is that the plant _reflects red light_. So maybe a potentially red plant actually turns red for the purpose of reflecting red light. It would following then that emphasizing blue light would not necessarily bring out the reds.
> 
> On the other hand, maybe those pigments are a by-product of an adaptation that serves another purpose, but since it can't absorb the red light, it needs all the blue light it can get.


I think you're on to something, but for a slightly different reason. I just scoured through the BarrReport to re-read what Tom Barr has said about red pigmentation.

https://barrreport.com/threads/leds-that-grow-red-plants.13200/#post-130827, post #18

(Hopefully I'm summarizing this correctly) Anthocyanins are one of the photopigments that gives plants their red color. They do indeed require red lighting in order to stimulate their growth per Tom. What's weird is that I basically spent about a 9 months of trial and error to redden up my rotala butterfly, rotundifolia, and wallichii in my grow tanks. After running multiple trials the one that seemed to work was converting all of my warm LEDs to cool white LEDs (10,000 K to 20,000 K) and switching out some LEDs for blue 460nm LEDs. Using red LEDs did nothing to the color profile of my plants and just made my tank look really gaudy. Once I get some free time, I'm going to set up my RGB LEDs though to mimic the ADA RGB lights because of how amazing it makes everything look.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

It's "complicated" and what's good for one species isn't always good for another..
Bottom line is though high intensity white is almost guaranteed to produce colored pigments..
as to wavelenghts .. that is a bit tricky..


> Light experiments were designed to determine conditions that favor anthocyanin synthesis in rough bluegrass. The scientists first evaluated whether treatment with high-intensity light could increase anthocyanin content, and then determined the wavelength(s) of light capable of upregulating anthocyanin synthesis to optimize light conditions. They also investigated the role of photosynthesis on anthocyanin production.
> 
> When exposed to constant high-intensity white light, rough bluegrass plants significantly increased anthocyanin concentration compared to untreated plants. Light-treated plants exhibited an average 117.64-fold increase in anthocyanin content, and accumulated anthocyanins in both leaf blades and sheath tissue. "Our data show that the anthocyanin content of rough bluegrass after high-light treatment is comparable to or greater than many common fruits and vegetables, particularly red leaf lettuce, and consists of the same anthocyanins," Petrella noted.
> 
> ...


Using heavy blue can produce more pigments but "show" less...

A bit more on the"quality" of light:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4274681/


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Switched to @burr740 micros 3 weeks ago. AR mini is coming back to life.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Nice!

Did you wind up dosing .15 3x per week? What are your macros these days?


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

burr740 said:


> Did you wind up dosing .15 3x per week? What are your macros these days?


Been preoccupied with local fires .., anyways.

Yes, your .15 Fe micros x3 week at 4ml.

Macros are a bit more complicated, given the tank size and that I dose each macro (dry ferts dissolved in water) individually. I am guessing that this 17g-rated tank currently holds around 13g? I dose macros x3 week, on alternate days, with 5ml solutions calculated for *10g* of tank water:

N @ 5 ppm
K @ 5 ppm
P @ 1 ppm

Relatively lean.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Plants are doing fine with @burr740 micro mix:
- AR mini is looking better and better and I was never able to grow AR at all
- on the negative side, All Blyxa in this tank are doing something strange: tops split into 2-3 branches and the new leaves are deformed and start rotting (picture below). The only major change was the switch to the new micro mix. Blyxa that I keep in 2 other tanks with CSM+B are growing normally. AR or Blyxa? Can I have both please?










Blyxa ...


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

The tank is visibly declining after the switch to new micros, looks like I lost ~ 50% of the previous plant mass. I bumped up P to 2 ppm x3 week. The resudual N is ~ 20 ppm and the residual P is ~ 1 ppm. Switched back to CSM-B x2 week with the new micros x1 per week. At this point, I'm just trying to save what I can.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

My goodness! 

Wish I knew what to tell you. Still think those residual levels are too low, esp PO4. That would never work in any of my set ups.

Dropping lower leaves, small size growth, deterioration, generally pale and colorless, to me that all says macros

Dry dose 10 ppm PO4 and see what happens. That's a quick way to see of PO4 is lacking (or NO3, K etc) If so the plants will perk up in just a day or two. Then you'll know what direction to head. If nothing happens then you can move on to something else.

I dont think now is the time to be cutting anything. Its time for a drastic measure to get these plants fed....imho


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## lab_fly (May 6, 2018)

This tank has come a long way! I hope it bounces back! Please update when you can!


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

@burr740: a shot of 10 ppm of PO4 to see what happens.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> @burr740: a shot of 10 ppm of PO4 to see what happens.


I like the spirit of exploration, and am very interested to see what happens.

Like Burr said above, my tank would hate me at those macro levels. Might need to experiment with a bit more N & K as well, but time will tell. 

Could also have something to do with higher micro level (or more effective micros, i.e. better iron source) increasing need for macros, but who knows? 

Heck, you know your tank your better than me, so keep on experimenting. I am really enjoying this.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Greggz said:


> Could also have something to do with higher micro level (or more effective micros, i.e. better iron source) increasing need for macros, but who knows?


This is my current theory as well. Before he was able to get by with lower macros because, in some way, micros from csmb were the limiting factor.

What we are seeing now is having better, more efficient micros driving the need for macros up. 

Or another way to look at it is like the metaphorical barrel in Liebig's law. Macros, either one or all, is now the shortest slat

Very interested to see what happens!


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Greggz said:


> Could also have something to do with higher micro level (or more effective micros, i.e. better iron source) increasing need for macros, but who knows?


I would have also bet on the side of increased macro demand if csmb were limiting. Instead, the residual N quadruppled to 20 and P to 1 ppm with the same weekly macros dose. Part of it can be attributed to release from die-off and fewer consumers.

In either case (macros bottoming out or spiking) I would have expected some algae bloom but that has not happened either (yet).

One thing that distingushes this tank from others with similar micros is relatively low light. Add to that my x3 weekly dose of 4ml micros that should have been closer to 2 ml and poisoning (i.e. too much of some good thing) starts to look more plausable.

Lets give it a couple of days and see what happens


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

OVT said:


> Add to that my x3 weekly dose of 4ml micros that should have been closer to 2 ml and poisoning (i.e. too much of some good thing) starts to look more plausable.


Wait what?? So you're saying that you've been inadvertently dosing the micro mix at .3 ppm Fe 3x per week instead of .15 ppm 3x?

That's enough to make a difference, but still I dont think micros are the main issue. If anything the higher levels are causing an even greater need for more macros.

But I can say that all my tanks are currently doing better, with basically your same mix, dosing .15-.2 3x per week instead of those same levels daily. Which I did for many months and never saw anything like you're experiencing. just nagging little issues in a few species 

So I still think its macros, could be wrong obviously....


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

48 hours later I am not seeing any changes, either in uptake or plants. The fish seem to be swimming the right side up, at least some good news.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

@OVT - your phosphate issue made me question some of the problems in my tank so this morning I tested my phosphate level.
In your picture above, it is difficult to tell what the phosphate level is. My tank water also looked about the same - dark.
What I did was mixed 15ml of distilled water and 5ml of tank water together, then used 5ml of that in a test tube. I got what looked to be about 2.0ppm for a reading which would equate to a true reading of 8ppm. Might be of some use to you.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

@Immortal1, I appreciate the hint, thanks.

The point of my post was that I cannot detect significant / measurable PO4 uptake in 48 hours. I took pictures of test tube right after 10 ppm dosing and another 48 hours later and I cannot tell the colors appart.

Whether or not the tank has "PO4 issues" is unclear to me but I followed burr's recommendation, as he thinks my macro levels are too low.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Now give it a blast of KNO3, 10-12 ppm. See what happens after another 3-4 days.

Remember concentration affects absorption. Just because there's a few ppm in the water column doesnt mean the plants can get, or have gotten, all they need. Especially if they've been bombarded with micros lately, via inadvertent double dosing. It could have their inner workings screwed up and it may take some time to recover

I wouldnt rely on those liquid tests to show much about plant uptake, they just arent accurate enough.

If things dont improve after this blast of macros (give it a few days) then you can just do a reset. Two 70% water changes back to back. Then start back with a little higher macros than you were dosing before, something close to EI, and the new micros at the proper .15 3x.

If that dont work then the problem aint ferts, its something else going on


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Are your micros in a clear container you can see through? Just to rule out something funky going on, if not, pour it in a glass or something clear, and also check the bottom the current container for evidence of mold or precipitory debris settled in the bottom.

I made this at the same time I made yours, back in June. Put some in a jar and labeled it as a long term test. Its the exact same blend you have, from one of those same sealed bags. 

Might be hard to tell in the pic but it's still crystal clear 7 months later. No mold, no nothing. Its just been sitting on a shelf. So Im pretty sure your micros are good, but it wouldnt hurt to check just to be sure


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

@burr740 - my mix looks just like yours, no mold, no percipitation.

Any chance you have a table comparing csmb percentages to yours? If not, I'll make one. 
I've been talking to our local Culligan guy and he says that despite the hard water and the water company's annual report our water has no Mg. The local water comes from a large network of wells, averaging 700' deep.

I also went back to my notes and I am seeing a pattern: Panda corries only, months of Nov and Dec, 1 or 2 start spiraling shortly after water change. The last couple of years I moved the ones in distress to random tanks and all recovered within a day. But this behaviour happened in 2 different houses 150 mi appart and is unlikely to be caused by water chemistry. Maybe temperature? I now pre-heat WC and watch Pandas closely.

So, yes, I am looking outside of micros. But plants vise, this is the only tank out of 7 with the micros and the only one with Blyxa going to crap. 2 other tanks grow Blyxa by buckefulls.

Love this hobby.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Comparing ppm to csmb is sorta apples to oranges because the micros in csmb are chelated (except for Mo and B). The compounds in your mix are not chelated. They are all the same compounds used in Flourish products.

So the compounds behave differently, both in the water and how the plants absorb them. Non-chelated is easier for the plants to absorb and use immediately. But they tend to not stick around in an available state as long as chelated ones. This of course varies between nutrients and depends a lot on PH levels

The other big difference is edta Fe in csmb vs dtpa in the custom. Dtpa holds at higher PH levels than edta, which starts to break loose from Fe around 6.5 (to the other micros it remains bound at much higher PH levels, Fe is the only concern as far as PH) Dtpa stays bound to Fe until around 7.5

Note that it's not an all or nothing thing where at 6.6 all the edta Fe is gone. That's just where it begins to happen. The higher the PH gets the more it separates. Ive seen studies that show about 50% of edta Fe is gone at 7.0, for example

Here's some comparisons

Your Mix:
Fe - .15 ppm
Mn - .06 ppm
B - .03 ppm
Zn - .042 ppm
Mo - .0015 ppm
Cu - .002 ppm
Ni - .0005 ppm

Csmb at .15 Fe:
Fe	0.15
Mn	0.043
Cu	0.002
Zn	0.008
Mo	0.001
B	0.018

v13.15 - which I know at least 20 people used with good results, dosing 3-7x per week
Fe - .15 ppm
Mn - .075 ppm
B - .03 ppm
Zn - .055 ppm
Mo - .0015 ppm
Cu - .002 ppm
Ni - .0005 ppm

My current recipe, dosing 3x per week
Fe -.2
Mn -.06
B - .045
Zn -.05
Mo - .0015
Cu - .0024
Ni - .0003

Fwiw I ran your same mix for a couple of months with good results. Its what I was using at the time which is why you got that particular recipe. Blyxa grew just fine! 

If anything it needs a little more B and Zn dosing only 3x per week. But we are talking about very fine tuning at this point. These small tweaks you notice between the different versions arent making a huge difference either way

Honestly your results are fascinating me right now - assuming its micro related, which Im not entirely convinced.

It would seem that long term something is running short. B and Zn are the only two that really stand out. Knowing what I know today, I do think your recipe could use a little more of those two. But not enough to cause all the symptoms you're currently dealing with. Sheesh!! 

Before doing anything drastic please raise KNO3 like I suggested in the other post. You've already spiked PO4, so this should rule macros out


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

I did not expect these results either and my goal was not to provide entertainment for the forum.

KNO3 is going up this Monday, even though the residual is > 20 ppm + 5 ppm x3 week.

Yes, I think I got your point @burr740 on concentration vs uptake. I might buy the argument 5 ppm vs 20, but 20 vs 40?

Hitting EI levels was exactly what I did not want to do, but anything in the name of science.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Well you really need to go by what the plants are telling you, not what the test says. Thats why I still think its a macro issue. 

That test is probably wrong anyway unless you've compared it to a known solution. API Nitrate is notorious for reading high


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

If you are interested, I can provide nitrate testing using my hach kit. The water will probably arrive too late to actually help you. But, I can let you know how "wrong" your kit is. Be aware that I can only reliably test from 0.5-40ppm without dilution. You can send me dated samples of at least 10mL with a few stamps I think.


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## ced281 (Jul 6, 2012)

Dont forget about CO2! Carbon is the macroest of all macronutrients in my opinion =P

I remember reading somewhere that Phosphate goes hand in hand with carbon and lighting, since phosphate is used for ATP synthesis. Though that doesn't really make 100% sense to me because it should be being reused since ATP turns into ADP + P (unless maybe it's from increased plant mass, thus more P being needed to supply enough ADP/ATP for the new cells/mitochondria)?

Anyways I digress... just consider maybe increasing your CO2 levels if all else fails?
By Leibigs law, SOMETHING is your limiting factor whether it be N, K, P, a micro nutrient, carbon, or light.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

@Jeffww, much appreciate the offer but why make life more complicated for somebody else? Worst case, I'll buy a better kit.
@ced281, thanks and noted. P is currently close to 10 ppm. Theoretically, there will always be something limiting and the question becomes when good enough is good enough?


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## ced281 (Jul 6, 2012)

Personally I like to run my show tanks so that light is the limiting factor. 0.25 to 0.5 in of growth a day in my fast growing stems is what I prefer to titrate to so I only need to trim every 4 weeks or so.

For my power growth tanks I was able to push it to close to 1 inch per day but the time involvement got too much for me. Plants I could really push were my colored rotalas because the high light would also make them color up beautifully.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Update?


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Sorry, @burr740, just saw your post.

Not much new to report, pre-WC:

TDS 330
N = 40
P = ~7

After one time boosts of N and P, I keep to my normal fertilization and maintenance routine and just let the tank be. *The plants seem to be slowly re-covering*: R. Colorata, macrandra, green, L. Cuba and mini red, H. agustifolia, L. aromatica mini and Atlantis,, mayaca, pearl weed are all doing as well as before the new micros. AR mini is looking better and better, if growing slow.

R. magenta is completely gone (I will have to buy it again), some small stubs of Blyxa are holding on, Hygrophila tripartita is growing very slowly and with small leaves.

Since the beginning of this year, my micro dosing is x2 CSM+B and x1 new micros, in hopes of retaining AR mini's good growth and re-balancing the tank for the rest of the plants.

On 01-10-19:










The hobby in mid-step: pruning, pulling, re-planting, moving, and pruning again (today):


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

OK so switching back to mostly csmb didnt fix the two most glaring issues, Blyxa and H tripartita.

Then only other reason I can think of that it might've been the new micros - when you poured the mix into the dosing bottle, did you run a little water in the empty bag to get any residual dust? Some things are in extremely small quantities. Mo for example, think 9 single grains of salt.

So if the majority of something like that was stuck in the seam of the bag along the edges, you may have would up with next to nothing in the bottle.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Yes, I did put some water into the bags and then dumped it into the bottle. I did make a mistake by putting 2 bags into a 500 ml bottle but caught it right away, put the whole thing into a 1L bottle and added 500 ml more water. Shook the mixture and let it sit for 24 hours before dosing. I shake the micros everytime, just before dosing.

Except r. magenta, nothing is lost and I will replant Blyxa and tripartita. 

Probably unrelated, but what caught my attention in a conversation with @Ken Keating1, who had a similar experience with the same plants, is that both of us cross 7 pH twice daily. Looking for similarities as I have no other bright ideas.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Interesting. My PH out of the tap is around 7.8. Degasses overnight to around 7.4, peak co2 in the 6.3 range.

Under those conditions the edta Fe in csmb is "weaker" than the same ppm of dtpa. So by going back to <mostly> csmb you basically lowered the Fe dose.

Did you ever try dosing the custom micros at only half or three quarters strength? Vin right now is getting amazing results with only .05 3x in a tank with inert sub (Pikez on BR, Saxa Tillly here) With a similar blend as you have, which I made it for him

Also from what I understand Rotala magenta is a hybrid strain that's pretty unstable. Sooner or later it tends to go to hell for most people. Even Tom cant grow it. So I wouldnt base much off how that one responded


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Right, that's what I am doing, cutting the dtpa Fe by 1/3, by using x2 csmb and x1 custom. I wonder if AR is finally getting at least some Fe. All of my prior micros were csmb, I could never grow AR, my tap was always 8+, and I could never see any "Fe benefit" by dosing extra csmb. Then again, I haven't heard of extra Fe affecting anything negatively. Live and learn and experiment.

R. magenta is a morph of R. macrandra. I have a picture in one of my threads of a single stem having both macrandra and magenta. The magenta in this tank was the reddest and the healthiest I have ever grown and I was pretty proud of it.


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

OVT said:


> some small stubs of Blyxa are holding on, Hygrophila tripartita is growing very slowly and with small leaves.


FWIW, I had issues with my dosing and HT completely shrunk and stunted(along with some other plants, while others showed improvement). I revised the dosing, and all the other plants recovered, but HT never did. 6 weeks after the revision, I removed all the HT. The next day, at our meeting, you gave me some HT and it's growing well in the tank. It made me wonder if the HT that I removed could not recover from whatever happened, because the new HT is growing fine. Something to think about.

It the Blyxa and HT I obtained from you from this tank?


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Ken Keating1 said:


> It the Blyxa and HC I obtained from you from this tank?


No, Blyxa came from my 90-U and (actually, HM = pearlweed) came from a low light tank.


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

OVT said:


> No, Blyxa came from my 90-U and (actually, HM = pearlweed) came from a low light tank.


Whoops, my bad, I meant HT. I changed my post accordingly. If you have HT from another tank, you may want to transfer some to this tank and see if the growth duplicates the existing HT.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

I do have pearl weed in this tank also and it's doing its usual thing - growing.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

The Fusion Movement is here. Proudly presenting Dutch Jungle:


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Doing maintenance with 7" of LED strips across a 12" wide tank got old and I rigged a pendant with 2 twisted CFL bulbs. That made my life a bit easier and gave me achance to compare the two light sources and to see what the tank looks like from the top.










2 CFLs:










2 x Current Satellite Plus:










And the current rim:


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Interesting - the 2 CFL's clearly are not as bright but the picture looks great! The Satellite pic looks kinda overexposed or washed out. 
Curious, if you are staying with the CFL's for awhile I wonder how it will effect plant growth?
And yes, I do remember the days when I had 2 Satellite strips and a Fluval 2.0 strip above my tank - big PITA


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

I actually prefer the colouration of the cfls. Softer than the currents, but I'm sure some of that is also due to the strength of light. 
Interesting to see how this goes.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

@Immortal1, @Jamo33, hm, we have 2 votes for CFL, the new technology tanks.

Both pictures were taken with Samsung Galaxy 8+ in Auto mode, ~1 hour apart, cropped and resized, no other editing.
The CFLs are 12" above the surface and are 60w equivalents at 5,500K. I can lower the fixture to 6" and switch to 100w equivalent CFLs. That thought crossed my mind, briefly.

This whole thread / tank was to see what's doable with 2 relatively cheap, widely available LEDs. I'm sort of getting tired of it as I think it pretty much accomplished what I wanted. And now you want to see what happens when $180 in LEDs get replaced by << $50 in CFLs? Gentleman, place your bets.

Or maybe somebody wants to give me some pointers on how to adjust RGB+W for a more photogenic tank? I am not that proud - I'll take all contributions and recommendations.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

I would love to see some experimenting done with the cfls. Distance from water and strength of bulb etc. 
As far as the currents. It just looks like its washed out, while it clearly produces good growth. It doesn't create a view as nice as the cfls. 
Thought about integrating the two? To get your colors the way you would like? I think I remember Dennis Wong doing something similar once?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

OVT said:


> @Immortal1, @Jamo33, hm, we have 2 votes for CFL, the new technology tanks.
> 
> Both pictures were taken with Samsung Galaxy 8+ in Auto mode, ~1 hour apart, cropped and resized, no other editing.
> The CFLs are 12" above the surface and are 60w equivalents at 5,500K. I can lower the fixture to 6" and switch to 100w equivalent CFLs. That thought crossed my mind, briefly.
> ...


If those are the Satellite Plus lights (not pro), I'm pretty sure you can adjust the individual RGB and W lights.
On my 20g with a Plus Pro I seem to have had good luck with the white turned down to 30-40% and the RGB closer to 100%

Suggestion, Red 100%, Blue 80%, Green - adjust to taste. Then bring up the white. Will you get 150 PAR - no. Can you get the color presented by the CFL's - likely. Can you get the color and PAR of the CFL's - I'm willing to wager 0.01 :grin2:


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

You can adjust individual RGB+W on both Plus (which I use on this tank) and Pro models. My current settings are somewhere in this thread, pretty close to @Immortal1 numbers, but with whites at 70% or so.
@Jamo33 there are a lot of threads on CFLs, including PAR data, on TPT, including a couple of my journals with them. Integrating the 2? Nah, as I don't see what I can gain for the hassle.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

I used to run two 23w 5000K cfls over a 20H, it was a great look. And I agree they look a lot better than the LEDs. All that cfl pic needs is brightening up a little.

You could write everything I know about photography on a cigarette pack with a crayon. However, Samsung's Pro mode will take a better aquarium pic than auto.

Set the white balance (WB) to auto or flourescent

ISO between 50 and 200

Exposure (or whatever you call it the brightness thing) somewhere around -1 for low light tanks and -1.5 for high light tank. That's for full tank pics. For close ups raise the number a .point or three higher.

Personally I take the pics a little darker then brighten it up after the fact. (read this tip for aquariums somewhere) It will eliminate overexposure on the brighter-leaved species and in general produce a clearer result.

What are the micros these days?

* Edit: CFL pic, just brightened it up a little using plain old Windows editor


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Good point. 
My suggestion then, just muck around with the settings until you reach a happy hue, whilst also putting iut the required PAR.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

+1 vote for the satellite's color. But with some tweaks. W70 is your problem. Just bring that down to 30 or less. 

Similar to @Immortal1's numbers. Set W20, R75, G1, B50 or around that range for picture time and w70 or above for all other times  but be warned that's probably the "richest color" only to my magenta loving mind. 

Or

Set something like that for m1 and Run that iaqua lite controller to cycle through your memory settings so that you're guaranteed to see that light profile for at least twice a day. 

But I suppose that's not the point. Because not everyone can build a controller and it wasn't your goal

However, if you wanted to achieve your goal, I'd say you did. Your plants are successfully red. The lights have enough PAR to make it happen. Rendering them in the "prettiest" color is a different aspect and very subjective. This is the problem I've come to accept in my tank as well. 

What you probably wanted was both to begin with. And that is probably the shortcoming of the satellite pros in its current configuration. To fix would be to add violet LEDs as @jeffkrol had told me. Or some combo of red/blue LEDs for "magenta." Thanks to @KZB, this may be something I will be trying soon. or a t5ho sunblaster with the right tube like some fellas have done. Oh wait, the last option breaks the goal. 

Perhaps this is why sbreef is so popular amongst the high tech planted tank group on Facebook. Really high par combined with great color rendering ability. But they're so terrible looking (the fixture itself) and not configurable at all. And the light dropoff at the edge. Humm. If I'm going to accept those problems, I may as well get a twinstar. 


@Immortal1 I would be curious of the par you can get by getting a more closer color profile to our satellites at their most "magenta" look. I think your radions are adjusted to a much warmer look nowadays. Which is why you probably like the CFL look.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

@ipkiss - yes the Radions are adjusted more towards the warmer end but I believe most of that is due to having only 2 blue LEDs. I simply cannot get the lights to generate a 8,000k with any real PAR.
With Blue @ 100% and Cool white @ 30% and all others @ 0% I can achieve 9,500K but at only 25 PAR. It's an interesting look but I guess not really what I am used to.
For a more "magenta" look, Red and Blue @ 100% is pretty ugly and only 15 PAR. Bringing in Cool White to get something decent to look at lowers the K to 5,000 ish.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

burr740 said:


> I used to run two 23w 5000K cfls over a 20H, it was a great look. And I agree they look a lot better than the LEDs. All that cfl pic needs is brightening up a little.
> 
> You could write everything I know about photography on a cigarette pack with a crayon. However, Samsung's Pro mode will take a better aquarium pic than auto.
> 
> ...



Play time:


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Immortal1 said:


> @ipkiss - yes the Radions are adjusted more towards the warmer end but I believe most of that is due to having only 2 blue LEDs. I simply cannot get the lights to generate a 8,000k with any real PAR.
> 
> With Blue @ 100% and Cool white @ 30% and all others @ 0% I can achieve 9,500K but at only 25 PAR. It's an interesting look but I guess not really what I am used to.
> 
> For a more "magenta" look, Red and Blue @ 100% is pretty ugly and only 15 PAR. Bringing in Cool White to get something decent to look at lowers the K to 5,000 ish.


I only need 6000k  sorry. I should have specified. Didnt think to check my own posting with the seneye reading.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

@jeffkrol @burr740 thank you for the work - pretty colorful !

@ipkiss, I'm using higher whites then @Immortal1 recommendation because I believe he was using PROs and I'm using Plus.

@burr740, no changes in dosing for macros or micros. And thanks for the photography hints.

My wife likes this tank, and that's more then 'mission accomplished" to me


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

> My wife likes this tank, and that's more then 'mission accomplished" to me


Did she like the reworked pics too or she just rolled her eyes?


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Gluttony is the second Deadly Sin. I killed more plants by over-planting and by hanging on to marginal, ratty plants. R. macrandra is gone, suffocated and over-shadowed. L. Cuba is not far behind, unlikely to recover. And all my tanks look the same.

Replaced Satellites PLUS by Satellite PRO and mounted both above the tank. Still messing with color settings.

Attempt to thin things out:










This is what old AS looks like:










In the middle of thinning plants out and playing with leftover Manzanita cuttings:


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

This tank is turning into AR mini farm.
Getting green fuzz algae on glass -> turned down B to 70% and W to 30%. Ferts are unchanged.


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