# What am I doing wrong



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

m9090 said:


> All my water parameters are at 0
> 
> Any input will be highly appreciated.


Parameters @ zero maybe not so good.
Looks like GSA for algae, what are your phosphate levels?
Maybe 1-2ppm may curb this algae.

What is your photoperiod? How much light as in PAR, or an estimate?


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## m9090 (Jun 8, 2016)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Parameters @ zero maybe not so good.
> 
> Looks like GSA for algae, what are your phosphate levels?
> 
> ...




Thank you for your reply,

I've never measured phosphates.
I also have a Purigen bag inside my canister. Should I remove it?
I have a Chihiros "Aquasky" and the photoperiod is 6h




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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

Your plants are nutrient deficient. From the looks of the algae covered leaves, it is most likely the macro ones but I never dose just for one because you'll end up most likely increase the levels for all of them. 

In order to get good growth and have healthy plants, nutrients need to be non-limiting. This means you can't have very little of any of the nutrients or it will stunt or slow growth and cause algae. If you have 24/7 CO2 then you need to bump all the nutrients so your plants can get what it needs to keep growing. Even in high light setups, you can keep your plants algae free as long as it has all it needs to stay healthy and keep growing. 

You need to maintain 10-20 ppm nitrate, 0.5 to 2 ppm phosphate and 10-30 ppm K. Ca,Mg and Fe also need to be available including the micro nutrients. If any of these nutrients are low or not available in the water then you will never get any growth or good growth regardless of how high your light is and how much CO2 you have.


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## m9090 (Jun 8, 2016)

PortalMasteryRy said:


> Your plants are nutrient deficient. From the looks of the algae covered leaves, it is most likely the macro ones but I never dose just for one because you'll end up most likely increase the levels for all of them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you!

In order to get all those levels higher, should I remove the Purigen bag and do just 20% water changes instead of 50%?

And for the dosing, I am using Tropica Plant Growth Specialized Fertilizer for heavily planted tanks. I'm currently dosing a pump every day, should I do 2 or 3 pumps? Or should I change my fertilizer? I tried dosing the two part but it only gave me tons of hair algae so I changed it for Tropica.




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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Keep the Purigen it removes no compounds that we dose.
It is an dissolved organic scavenging resin.
It removes these items before they begin the nitrogen cycle.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Both PortalMasteryRy and Maryland Guppy are right: don’t limit nutrients (learn the “Estimative Index” approach to fertilizing) and Purigen will help with cleaning your water, although I no longer need it, having a healthy tank. 

If you get your tank to a healthy state, following the EI approach, algae will be minimized assuming you balance your light and CO2.

I have a 29-gallon FW tank and I use NO bio-filter (see my other post on this experiment for the process I used to get there). I believe this has increased the available ammonia to the plants and has resulted in no detectable NH3 levels. I also use no chemical filters, such as Purigen, but I have in the past and it is, IMO, the best chemical filter of its’ type.

I have about twice the recommended fish load and am over-the-top with the light intensity (2 Gro-beam 600’s) and time (14 hours a day). I keep CO2 in the 30-40 ppm area. My nitrates naturally run in the 25-40 ppm area (I don’t add any) and I have to add phosphate in order to get the 5-6 ppm I want (phosphate does not cause algae). Potassium is in the 25 ppm area and I suggest you simply follow the manufacturers directions for any micro’s. 

With the amount of light I use, all types of algae can develop, although it wouldn’t get bad, given the health of my plants. However, like most of us, I want no algae. So, after each weekly water change of 50%, I add WAY-over-the-top amount of metricide (similar/identical to Excel). I add 30 ml to 25 gallons of water one day a week. This kills any algae and stunts it’s ability to gain a foothold during the remaining 6 days. My fish show no signs of distress with any of this. I also have Vecton 2 UV sterilizer which adds additional knock-down of algae spores (run it at night). 

Concerning cleaning of algae on any removable items. Put those items in a container and pour enough H2O2 (3% you get in a store) to cover it. Let it sit a day and 90% of the algae will be removed (all of it is killed), making it very easy to remove any that is left with a light brushing.


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## m9090 (Jun 8, 2016)

Deanna said:


> Both PortalMasteryRy and Maryland Guppy are right: don’t limit nutrients (learn the “Estimative Index” approach to fertilizing) and Purigen will help with cleaning your water, although I no longer need it, having a healthy tank.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



With the EI method I had nothing but crazy hair algae outbreaks... I don’t know if I should change back. I’m know triple dosing Tropica Specialized Fertilizer and hopefully things will turn around.

How can I bump all my levels? Everything stays at 0 no matter what [emoji30][emoji30][emoji30]

Thanks!



... said:


> Just sayin'
> 
> Your tank looks way overstocked...




I mean,my filter is overkill and all my levels stay at 0 even without water changes lol.

I just don’t know how to bump all those levels.



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## m9090 (Jun 8, 2016)

... said:


> I could have an Oscar in a five gallon with a filter that is "overkill" and it wouldn't be acceptable. This is a good comparison to what your doing here.
> 
> All levels being 0 isn't a good thing, It means you have an uncycled tank.




My tank has been running for over a year. I highly doubt it is not cycled.

I think you’re exaggerating with the Oscar comparison. 

Thanks though.


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## jr125 (Mar 5, 2015)

More plants in the tank would compete with any algae. Not sure that would be the look you are after, but in general adding nutrients to a very lightly planted tank invites algae growth.


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## m9090 (Jun 8, 2016)

jr125 said:


> More plants in the tank would compete with any algae. Not sure that would be the look you are after, but in general adding nutrients to a very lightly planted tank invites algae growth.




Thank you. I was going for an Iwagumi inspired style. 

I have Cuba everywhere in the thank and two other ones.


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## m9090 (Jun 8, 2016)

... said:


> just my 0.2 and my 3 years of fish keeping advice.
> 
> (3 isn't a lot btw)




I appreciate it. Thank you.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

I think we need to back-up. We don't know anything about your setup or parameters. Let's get some basic info. I'll have three posts that will help us hone in on your situation so we can make better judgments. Forgive me if I seem to be talking down to you, but I don't know your level of experience and expertise.

Rule 1: don't obsess over macro (N,P,K) and micro (trace) fertilizers. As long as they are always present in the water, they are of minor importance and easy to adjust. We'll get to them later.

By far, the vast majority of plant and algae issues are sourced in light and CO2. My preference is to start with CO2, which is easier to adjust than light. Light is the most difficult of all variables. Plants are primarily made of carbon and that comes from CO2 or carbon supplements such as glutaraldehyde (Excel or Metricide). The first decision we have to make when starting a planted tank is: will it be a low tech (no CO2 injection) or high-tech (CO2 injected) tank.

So ...which is your setup: low-tech or high-tech?

If it is high-tech:
1) How do you inject the CO2?
2) What is the CO2 ppm level?
3) How do you measure the CO2 level?


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## m9090 (Jun 8, 2016)

Deanna said:


> I think we need to back-up. We don't know anything about your setup or parameters. Let's get some basic info. I'll have three posts that will help us hone in on your situation so we can make better judgments. Forgive me if I seem to be talking down to you, but I don't know your level of experience and expertise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hello, Sorry I’ve been very busy studying.

I’ve had fish for over 12 years lol, I actually had a reef for 3 years but I sold it when I got into College because I had no time. Now that I’m in university I missed having fish so I decided last year to start a planted tank. And it has it’s ups and downs I’ve been dealing with algae the whole year no matter what I tried. 

My Tank is High-tech, I used all of the ADA substrate additives and ADA Aquasoil Amazonas.
My Filter is an Eheim 2217.
I dissolve CO2 through an inline diffuser.
The tank is at a constant 26c with an Hydor inline heater.

The lighting is LED from Chihiros which is technically the same as an Aquasky without the price tag.

I’m about to do my weekly water change. I’ve been dosing 2 pumps of Tropica Specialized Fertilizer. No changes in the plants... just way more algae









Here are the parameters as of today:

PH 7.6
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 0ppm

All tested individually with API

I honestly don’t know how to fight this anymore. [emoji30][emoji30][emoji30]

Thank you.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Did anyone tell you to reduce your photoperiod yet? Please consider it. Cutting it down will slow down everything so that you'll have more time to figure out what's really wrong. IF you're lucky, it will be that you had too much light all along, the algae will slow down or stop and you're done. But in reality, if you then realize that now you don't have enough light to get the growth that you want, then it'll just reconfirm what everyone's been telling you. You don't have enough nutrients, co2, or both for the light that you're pushing. Probably review Darkblade's Primer to get what we're all trying to get at.

As for your levels being at 0, either your ferts are bad, your test kit is bad, or you're using it wrong. Tropica specialized is supposed to give you macros from what I read. What if you tested the fert solution itself? Any nitrates then? If you're still getting 0, then obviously, something is really not right.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

OK, don't worry about your tank. I think we'll be able to get you on the right track, but it will take about a month to achieve stabilization once you set your inputs right.

First, to finish the CO2 aspect, the remaining questions were important:

2) What is the CO2 ppm level?
3) How do you measure the CO2 level?


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## m9090 (Jun 8, 2016)

ipkiss said:


> Did anyone tell you to reduce your photoperiod yet? Please consider it. Cutting it down will slow down everything so that you'll have more time to figure out what's really wrong. IF you're lucky, it will be that you had too much light all along, the algae will slow down or stop and you're done. But in reality, if you then realize that now you don't have enough light to get the growth that you want, then it'll just reconfirm what everyone's been telling you. You don't have enough nutrients, co2, or both for the light that you're pushing. Probably review Darkblade's Primer to get what we're all trying to get at.
> 
> 
> 
> As for your levels being at 0, either your ferts are bad, your test kit is bad, or you're using it wrong. Tropica specialized is supposed to give you macros from what I read. What if you tested the fert solution itself? Any nitrates then? If you're still getting 0, then obviously, something is really not right.




Hello,

I don’t know why my levels are at 0z
My photo Period is from 5pm to 11pm so just 6h
My test kits are good and expire in 2021 and when I had a reef I used to test everything once a week so I’m not bad at testing.


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## m9090 (Jun 8, 2016)

Deanna said:


> OK, don't worry about your tank. I think we'll be able to get you on the right track, but it will take about a month to achieve stabilization once you set your inputs right.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you Deanna,
I honestly can’t tell you what’s my actual CO2ppm level. I measure it with the glass thingy and PH

I actually increased my co2 level to a bubble per second. And now my PH is at 6.8 from previously 7.6. So I’m assuming my CO2 was to low, and now at 6.8 it is sufficient (per rate).

Let me know if I’m wrong.

Thank you!


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Zero NO3 can = BGA
Zero PO4 can = GSA
Low CO2 can = GHA Question your pH at 7.6???

pH drop of 1.0 will usually be 30ppm of CO2.
Measure the tank water and then take a sample with an airstone in it for a half hour.
The airstone will remove all remaining CO2 and test this sample.
Degassed pH - tank pH = 1.0 or close to it.

Overfeeding can bring about a serious amount of algae.
Flake food or what ever all nestled under the plants lower leaves etc....

I have had a tank bottom out on ferts before.
I would dose KNO3 & PO4 to meet the respective ratio of 20:2
In the beginning sometimes 3x per week.
Finally stabilized after a few weeks with a high CEC substrate.

The numbers I reached didn't promote algae nor did it affect livestock.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

When did the algae problems start? Did you confirm that the tropica ferts have macros? 

The lighting is definitely an issue in my opinion. Those are strong lights and even running only 6 hrs if it's at max that's alot of light for an iwagumi-type setup. Ideally you want a few hours of intense and the rest dimmer.


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## m9090 (Jun 8, 2016)

houseofcards said:


> When did the algae problems start? Did you confirm that the tropica ferts have macros?
> 
> 
> 
> The lighting is definitely an issue in my opinion. Those are strong lights and even running only 6 hrs if it's at max that's alot of light for an iwagumi-type setup. Ideally you want a few hours of intense and the rest dimmer.




Thank you all,

This is per Tropica’s website

“Specialised Nutrition is added each week when the water is changed. The pump bottle dispenses 2 mL per push.
We recommend 6 mL (3 pumps) per 50 L water weekly. However, we recommended that this is set in accordance with plant requirements. Specialised Nutrition contains, in addition to micro-nutrients, all essential macro-nutrients. The fertiliser is particularly suitable where plants display a lack of nutrition. However note that if algae growth starts, Specialised Nutrition will promote this growth.

Specialised Nutrition contains nitrogen (N) and phosphorus (P). Dosage must therefore be adapted to plant absorption rates, to avoid undesirable algae growth. Where signs of algae growth develop, reduce the dosage by 50% and increase water changing frequency by 50%. Changing the water not only reduces the concentration of nutrients in the water, but also removes algae spores, remnants and other accumulated elements from the aquarium water”

I’m gonna run a test now.

Thanks again,


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## m9090 (Jun 8, 2016)

So I ran the test with a small drop of Tropica Specialized Fertilizer in a vial, just enough for the vial to still be transparent, and it’s showing me the Nitrate levels at about 30ppm

Now with a higher C02 level and knowing the Tropica Fertilizer does contain Nitrates, should I keep dosing a pump a day or should I double it?

Also to answer the questions, I can decrease the brightness of my Light fixture.
I do not over feed and I make sure the’s never food below the plants etc.
I do weekly 50% water changes.

Thanks again


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

m9090 said:


> I honestly can’t tell you what’s my actual CO2ppm level. I measure it with the glass thingy and PH
> 
> I actually increased my co2 level to a bubble per second. And now my PH is at 6.8 from previously 7.6. So I’m assuming my CO2 was to low, and now at 6.8 it is sufficient (per rate).


Hmmm ...the “glass thingy" is probably a drop checker, but I can’t see one in your pictures. I'm going to guess that you don't have it set up correctly. So, let's get that operating. I suggest that you go on Amazon and buy the "Fluval CO2 Indicator Solution" for $7 (also buy API’s Phosphate test kit for $7). Fill your drop checker halfway with the Fluval indicator solution (there should be a fill line on the glass bulb). You can make the solution yourself, but using this pre-packaged solution is easy and sure. The typical instructions that come with many drop checkers tell you to mix tank water with the supplied solution, but tank water will generally give you false readings.

Once set up, it will take several hours to change color. You want it to change from blue to green. Then, gradually increase the CO2 until the DC (drop checker) turns yellow - remember that it will take several hours after each CO2 adjustment to show. You can back the CO2 down very slightly to change the DC just barely to green or, what I do is keep it just barely into the yellow. Watch your fish for signs of distress and back off if you see them struggling. They will adjust to it.

pH is not a good way to determine CO2 levels. It just tells you whether or not you are changing the CO2 levels. Some people just push the CO2 up gradually and wait until their fish tell them to back off, but I prefer having the visual aspect of the DC. You can also study DC's all over this forum.

Light: If you can’t get the PAR value for your Chihiros "Aquasky", we can’t tell if you have enough light or too much light although it's probably more than enough. As one poster suggested, you could trim your photo period back from where you are but, not knowing how much light your getting, I’d tend to say keep it where it is for now and first implement the CO2 suggestion, above, and the fert suggestion, below, and see what happens over 3-4 weeks. If you get too much algae, do three daily doses of Seachem’s Flourish Excel at their highest recommended dosage. This is a short-term algae control until the longer-term stabilized healthy plants can take over.

In the meantime, apply the EI method that you discarded earlier and continue to dose your Tropica Plant Growth Specialized Fertilizer, but you also need to add micros and potassium (odd that the Specialized Fertilizer doesn’t contain potassium) or none of the above matters. Since you like Tropica, add their Tropica Plant Growth Premium Fertilizer for the micros. However, you still need to add Potassium and I would suggest simply getting Seachems Flourish Potassium (Seachemn also has a full line of ferts). For all of your ferts, use this website; Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator to determine dosages. Use the nitrate and phosphate test kits to make sure the EI minimums are maintained. You won’t be hurt by much higher levels but, if you see nitrates rising into the 20-30 area and phosphates in the 3-5 area, your fish may be supplying enough and you might be able to cut back on the Specialized Fertilizer. BTW: you didn’t get “crazy hair algae” from the EI method. You got it from too much light combined with unhealthy plants.

Secret equation:
Light with correct PAR and photo period + ~30 ppm CO2 + EI minimum nutrients = healthy plants and minimum algae

If any of those variables on the left side of the equation are out of balance, expect the result to be unhealthy plants and increased algae.


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## KrypleBerry (May 23, 2017)

+one for micros. Never saw op mention dosing micros. Ive used tropica specialized for months, I also dosed micros (flourish comp) however between macro dosing days as my plants very much needed it. I also only dosed the specialized 5 days per week as recommended on the bottle, dose micros on days you dont dose macros, similar to other EI routines. Setting a schedule and sticking to it helps a lot with dosing and water changes, the less variation the better to find the balance youre looking for. 

I use a drop checker, but to be honest my ph/kh seems to have been very much on point for the passed 7 months... So Ive used it as a reference point. I use a pinpoint ph monitor and aim for a ph drop of 1 and my drop checker backs my readings. The PH drop shows before the drop checker and helps me fine tune better.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

KrypleBerry said:


> I use a drop checker, but to be honest my ph/kh seems to have been very much on point for the passed 7 months... So Ive used it as a reference point. I use a pinpoint ph monitor and aim for a ph drop of 1 and my drop checker backs my readings. The PH drop shows before the drop checker and helps me fine tune better.


Given the experience level, I was a little concerned about KH stability, and the high level generally (dKH 10), plus other chemistry that can skew it. The pH/KH charts and other pH-derived measures often say that there is more CO2 present than there actually is, and you're right about fine tuning the direction quickly. Nothing is perfect but, like you said, the DC gives that visual feedback and it is more accurate ON THE CONDITION that the indicator solution is correct.


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## m9090 (Jun 8, 2016)

Deanna said:


> Hmmm ...the “glass thingy" is probably a drop checker, but I can’t see one in your pictures. I'm going to guess that you don't have it set up correctly. So, let's get that operating. I suggest that you go on Amazon and buy the "Fluval CO2 Indicator Solution" for $7 (also buy API’s Phosphate test kit for $7). Fill your drop checker halfway with the Fluval indicator solution (there should be a fill line on the glass bulb). You can make the solution yourself, but using this pre-packaged solution is easy and sure. The typical instructions that come with many drop checkers tell you to mix tank water with the supplied solution, but tank water will generally give you false readings.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hello Everyone, 

So I did what you all suggested me and wow I’ve seen a big improvement in plant growth and colour, the plants are so bright, however the very bad side of this is that I’ve got an explosion of what seems to be black brush algae sometimes purple.

Maybe there’s something further I need to adjust?

I will perform a water change today and test the parameters before and after and post them later on.

I hope to be able to clear this brush algae issue, at this point I’m thinking of tearing down the tank and start again from scratch.

Thanks again to all of you for your help! [emoji4]


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

m9090 said:


> So I did what you all suggested me and wow I’ve seen a big improvement in plant growth and colour, the plants are so bright, however the very bad side of this is that I’ve got an explosion of what seems to be black brush algae sometimes purple.


That’s not surprising. Algae like system disruptions and, even though your disruption was for the better, it was a disruption and a signal to the algae to grow. It should settle down, over a few weeks, as the plants continue to improve and the tank parameters remain stable (same light, CO2 and ferts every day).

Stay the course:
- No changes in light pattern
- CO2 at maximum possible levels (just below fish gasping)
- Ferts on EI

In the meantime, did you try the short-term Excel dose (max recommended dose 3 days in a row)? If you did, with no effect, I will tell you what I do that tames my hair algae. I do this because I have very high light and it’s on 14 hours a day, so algae cannot be completely controlled by a healthy tank. Be warned: this horrifies most TPT members that read it. Read up on glut. You must be careful with it.

I use Metricide 14, which is substantially cheaper than Excel, and I dose 1.1 ml per gallon the day after my weekly water change. This acts as an algae preventative for me. That would be the equivalent of dosing 1.7 ml of Excel per gallon. That’s 3 ½ times Seachem’s max recommended dose! I have never lost a fish or a plant with this weekly dose. If you are inclined to do this, I suggest that first you try the 3-day max Seachem recommendation then, after your next water change hit it with 1 ml / gal. Then ratchet-up from there – once per week only. I believe that most glut problems stem from the day-after-day or every-other-day pounding and that once / week is easily withstood by fauna and sensitive plants. If the algae isn’t too widespread, you can squirt it directly onto the algae for quicker knock-down. Glut is gone no longer than 12 hours after dosing and is destroyed even faster by UV.

Make sure you have good flow (at least ten times your total gallons). I have ~1,000 gph combined flow in my 29 gal tank. You want the glut (and your ferts) to be in constant contact with the plants and algae.


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## m9090 (Jun 8, 2016)

Deanna said:


> That’s not surprising. Algae like system disruptions and, even though your disruption was for the better, it was a disruption and a signal to the algae to grow. It should settle down, over a few weeks, as the plants continue to improve and the tank parameters remain stable (same light, CO2 and ferts every day).
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you!

I’ll dose Excel and see how things go, I just performed a 50% water change and here are the results prior to it:

Ammonia: 0ppm
Ph: 6.8
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 0 - 2 seems a little darker than the yellow (0ppm) but not orange like the 5.0ppm

I’ll keep the Excel dosing, the EI and Specialized Fertilizer. 

My tank is looking like a mess, Cuba is suffering with the brush algae, the other stem plants look great and bright green other than some having a little of brush algae [emoji33]

Thanks again!


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## m9090 (Jun 8, 2016)

All the brown is brush algae [emoji28][emoji24]


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

m9090 said:


> Nitrate: 0 - 2 seems a little darker than the yellow (0ppm) but not orange like the 5.0ppm


That nitrate seems awfully low for EI dosing. I'd prefer to see it in the 10-20 area. Are you sure about the results and about the dosing amount? You can verify the dosing amount by using the dosing calculator on Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Calculators & Information. 

Also, can you test PO4 ($7 API kit on Amazon)? Those results would be useful, too.


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## Joshism (Nov 26, 2015)

m9090, are you using Power Sand? It helps reduce algae by allowing beneficial bacteria under the substrate to survive, move around and breathe, which means less ammonia, which means less algae. Alternative is lava rock. Fast forward the video below to 8:00.


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## m9090 (Jun 8, 2016)

Joshism said:


> m9090, are you using Power Sand? It helps reduce algae by allowing beneficial bacteria under the substrate to survive, move around and breathe, which means less ammonia, which means less algae. Alternative is lava rock. Fast forward the video below to 8:00.
> 
> ADA 🌱 Aqua Design Amano 🌿 Nature Aquarium Workshop 2017 - YouTube




Hello,

Yes I am, and all the ADA substrate additives.

Thanks! 


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