# LED lighting a sham, trend or savior?



## RichC (Jul 8, 2012)

As long as you get the correct spectrum of light for your plants, LEDs should work quite well. I'm coming from the reef tank side of things and have corals that are rocking under LED only lighting that I actually have dimmed instead of running full brightness. Initial cost is definitely going to be higher, but operating cost is lower. However, if you have the desire to build a custom system, you could even control PAR and spectrum to very specific areas of your tank with the correct combination of LEDs and optics. That would not be easy at all with any other form of lighting.


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## nokturnalkid (Apr 3, 2007)

Led is somewhat a newer technology in aquariums. Been around for only a few years now. Most led fixtures are more geared towards reef setups but slowly there are more and more freshwater planted fixtures coming out. Marineland, finnex, and even ada are coming out with planted fixtures. Some may be on the lower side of par but diy'ing a fixture can also be done to achieve higher par values.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

I have always said "sham" until recently. I am impressed with the Finnex Ray II fixtures:

http://www.finnex.net/index.php?opt...ge.tpl&category_id=4&product_id=321&Itemid=61

They are competitively priced, and have good part ratings. Here are the par ratings on the 16", 18" and 24" units. The longer ones are just coming out and there is no data on them yet.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182904


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## mscichlid (Jul 14, 2008)

The pricing is definantly geared to smaller tanks. I think I would be more proned to be sold on this new technology if there was definative PAR data available.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

How is it a sham? Tons of people create magnificent DIY fixtures on all kinds of tanks with all kinds of plants. 

While the investment is greater in the beginning, there are tons of benefits beyond saving energy. There's typically less heat generated, they last for years and years without issue and if you're building your own fixture, you can customize everything to the T.


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

Well, there are many par numbers available, and par numbers are definitive, so I'm not sure what you are talking about.

LEDs are plenty strong enough, if you use enough to make it strong. It's all relative. If you don't put enough LEDs over a tank, you wont have enough light. If you don't put enough fluorescent tubes over your tank, you wont have enough light.

Just because a bunch of morons making weak @$$ light fixtures that are as useful as a key chain led flash light, doesn't mean LEDs aren't legit. They give off light just as real as light given off tubes.

The light isn't of lesser quality, in fact the generated light generally contains more of the spectrum of visible light. Also, LEDs (new, late generation, within the last few years) are substantially more efficient than fluorescent and MH, etc.

The technology is new and expensive, but if you have the $$$ the power required is out there. Radion, AI sol, Aqua Illumination, Aqua Ray...


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Initial price vs. on going operation costs, LEDs win hands down. Tubes just won't last as long as LEDs. I'd need to spend 3Xs the electricity with T5 tubes to get what I do from 2-18w PAR38 LED bulbs and I won't be changing the LEDs for over 50K hrs. In that time replacement tube cost alone will be more than the start-up cost of the LED system.

Going forward I'll only be using LEDS. Slowing replacing light in my home with LEDs too.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

jcgd said:


> ....The technology is new and expensive, but if you have the $$$ the power required is out there...


Granted I did my own install but the I spent apps the same on my DIT PAR38 Track Light that I was going to spend on a 2x T5 fixture. (Sunbeam 48" 2 X 45W T5 Fixture By Aqua Medic) So I'm not thinking pricing wis way out of line right now.


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

I think it is a touch early for the average person to switch their homes to LED, just until the price comes down a bit. You'll still save in the long run, but many people don't have the cash up front. I get that.

Those who still use incandescent over CF... pretty much pooping on the Earth.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Home Depot is starting to carry LED floods. Yes, no question in a year our two they will come down. I start switching over to CFLs when they came out. 

I can not afford to do the whole house. But, I can do them as they need replacing.


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

DogFish said:


> Granted I did my own install but the I spent apps the same on my DIT PAR38 Track Light that I was going to spend on a 2x T5 fixture. So I'm not thinking pricing wis way out of line right now.


Yes, but your systems is technically not ideal for planted aquariums unless you specifically want what you are receiving. Don't get me wrong, it works fine... but the trade off for the relative cheapness, is the design limitations. You have major spotlighting. You can make it work, but you don't want to use that sort of setup without taking growth patterns at least somewhat into consideration.

I'm not saying anything bad about your setup, but it's a "base" build, the budget build of the LED world. It's like cfls in screw in bases. Very economical. Very effective, not (usually) ideal.

A fantastic method for entry into LEDs though. I'm thinking of using two 18 watts over my 120cm. They are so powerful you can raise them up pretty high to get decent spread. You just have to keep in mind the tendency of the plants to grow towards the brightest spot.

My DIY build is only 6" wide, so the LEDs are about 5" apart at most. The plants all try to grow to the middle. My next big build will be more evenly space front to back over the tank


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

No offense taken. 

Consider it is only "not Ideal" if one's lighting world is based on the tradition of full coverage light in the tank thinking.

I'm not saying it is wrong to have uniform light, so plants all grow uniformly like a field of corn. 

But, if we are really trying to copy a natural ecosystem, uniform light is not natural in most of the environments that our plants come from. Our plants live in places were they get filtered Sun/full Sun at various time in the day. The sun doesn't cross the sky along the same plane every day. Some plants get prime spots in nature, plants that don't never reach the same potential. Controlling plant growth with light vs. trimming.

From a application stand point, I could have even coverage with one additional bulb in the middle. That would even out the peaks directly under the two existing bulbs. But, I did take the light pattern into consideration and a created a scape that the lights complement.

I can move the light left to right, I can dim, do peak hrs and I can offer various level of intensity for full or particle days.

If there is any real limitation it is that I have do do those things manually.

I recently looked at a hydroponic light system that automatically moves left right on a timer. Something like that would be an interesting addition although it really isn't living room display tank acceptable tech. in my home.

:biggrin:

BTW - I noticed since I built my lighting there are a lot more Lens degree options available, so that is a nice trend.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

DogFish said:


> Home Depot is starting to carry LED floods. Yes, no question in a year our two they will come down. I start switching over to CFLs when they came out.
> 
> I can not afford to do the whole house. But, I can do them as they need replacing.


When the spiral, screw in CFL bulbs first came out, they were touted as long life bulbs, that used less electricity, but cost quite a bit more than other bulbs. A CFL bulb bought then could well still be working fine. But, now you can buy a package of 2 bulbs for $1 (at my local grocery store), and the last CFL bulbs I have used lasted just a few months before they quit. Some were dim when first turned on.

I just hope LED lights don't follow that same path. I don't mind spending more for a good light that has a long life. I definitely mind buying a piece of junk that barely lasts 3 months. [/RANT]


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## Crispino L Ramos (Mar 29, 2008)

The LED lighting reminds me of electric cars. I wanted an electric car but the cost was prohibitive, so I just bought a Ford Fiesta.


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## nalu86 (Oct 19, 2010)

LED is the future, go to EU, you will see.
My parents have LED's for many years in their restaurant as main lighting. 
Also in their house, they have screw in LED's, not the outdated CFL's. 

When I renovated my house last year, I build in stainless steel 9W led's in my kitchen, they are amazingly bright. 

I wish the USA wasn't that behind on technology... 

Normal bulbs are off the market (and illegal) in Belgium, I don't know about the rest of EU.


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## lpsouth1978 (Jun 22, 2012)

Hoppy said:


> When the spiral, screw in CFL bulbs first came out, they were touted as long life bulbs, that used less electricity, but cost quite a bit more than other bulbs. A CFL bulb bought then could well still be working fine. But, now you can buy a package of 2 bulbs for $1 (at my local grocery store), and the last CFL bulbs I have used lasted just a few months before they quit. Some were dim when first turned on.
> 
> I just hope LED lights don't follow that same path. I don't mind spending more for a good light that has a long life. I definitely mind buying a piece of junk that barely lasts 3 months. [/RANT]


I have been using DIY LED builds for a while, about 2 years, on my reef tanks and have had AMAZING results. So far i have not had a single LED go bad or die on me.

It does not have to be difficult or expensive to do these builds. If you search the Internet you can find any number of companies offering LED at affordable prices. They are not the newest and greatest LEDs on the market, but in my experience they don't have to be. My most successful build to date uses cheap Chinese EpiLEDs. 

As long as you layout the LEDs correctly you do not have to worry about spotlighting either. This is especially easy with a planted tank since even a 3w LED without any optics is capable of producing 50 PAR in an 18 inch deep tank.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Hoppy said:


> .... now you can buy a package of 2 bulbs for $1 (at my local grocery store), and the last CFL bulbs I have used lasted just a few months before they quit. Some were dim when first turned on.... [/RANT]


That's just a manufactor's quality control issue. Most of that $1 Store "dump" table stuff is 3rd world knock-off junk. I saw a pc. on the News about the increase in electrical fires from Chinese Knock-off products. I wouldn't buy any cheap electronic products anymore than I'd buy discount meat or 3 day old fish. 

I've still got one of those 1st energy saver floods in my Kennel run, it must be 7 yrs. old? now. It's outside Sub zero to 101 last Friday. Don't remember what is was rated for climate wise. Granted I don't like the warn-up time it takes to get going. 

One thing that never seems to change is you get what you pay for.


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

*Imho...*



jcgd said:


> I think it is a touch early for the average person to switch their homes to LED, just until the price comes down a bit. You'll still save in the long run, but many people don't have the cash up front. I get that.
> 
> Those who still use incandescent over CF... pretty much pooping on the Earth.


I use an excellent LED Fixture and I have replaced all my light bulbs at home with the new Philips LED light bulbs (the ones I used replace 60w bulbs for 12.5w LEDs). The color (at least for the Philips LED bulbs) is indistinguishable from incancesdents, at least to my eyes. Yes, they cost a retarded amount of $$ but is it worth it? Yes. When one factors in the cost of constantly replacing light bulbs around the house all the time and the decreased electricity consumption, it eventually does indeed become worth the upfront investment. The one thing that I don't like is the .5 second between turning the switch on and the light bulb lighting up, but I guess that's just how LEDs work.


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

DogFish said:


> Initial price vs. on going operation costs, LEDs win hands down. Tubes just won't last as long as LEDs. I'd need to spend 3Xs the electricity with T5 tubes to get what I do from 2-18w PAR38 LED bulbs and I won't be changing the LEDs for over 50K hrs. In that time replacement tube cost alone will be more than the start-up cost of the LED system.
> 
> Going forward I'll only be using LEDS. Slowing replacing light in my home with LEDs too.


Exactly. Depending on usage, the minimum expected longevity of the Philips LED light bulbs I have is around 20 years. But even if I ran them all day long for 10 hours, it would still be another 10, so if that isn't worth it I don't know what is, lol.


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

DogFish said:


> That's just a manufactor's quality control issue. Most of that $1 Store "dump" table stuff is 3rd world knock-off junk. I saw a pc. on the News about the increase in electrical fires from Chinese Knock-off products. I wouldn't buy any cheap electronic products anymore than I'd buy discount meat or 3 day old fish.
> 
> I've still got one of those 1st energy saver floods in my Kennel run, it must be 7 yrs. old? now. It's outside Sub zero to 101 last Friday. Don't remember what is was rated for climate wise. Granted I don't like the warn-up time it takes to get going.
> 
> One thing that never seems to change is you get what you pay for.


I'd have to agree. I replace all the incandescent bulbs in my apartment 6 years ago. When I moved to my house I took every bulb that I bought then with me. Every bulb with the exception of 1 or 2, I had then are still going strong. I only buy the Home Depot version of CFLs though. Plus I work there so I can study the different bulbs.

As far as the LED cost for house replacement, they are pricey for sure. I installed 4 recessed can lights in my Living room Nov 2011 to place LED's in them. My cans are empty til this day because I am still waiting for price drops or sales to get the LED's I want in there.


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## Lowe (Nov 11, 2011)

DogFish said:


> One thing that never seems to change is you get what you pay for.


Agreed. And same applies to LEDs without question. There are many 'notables' one must dig in to when selecting LEDs. You could do a DIY LED fixture for dirt cheap but the colors may shift, LEDs may lose intensity or at the slightest hint of heat your diode may fail. Not to mention, heat sync compound/tape and your heat sync will also play a huge role among a wealth of other factors as well. 

Check the boards, listen to Hoppy, Samamorgan, and other lighting guru's for advice and experiences. Being well informed and purchasing quality parts if going the DIY route will save $ down the road and produce great results for your tank without the hiccups and headaches.


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## Vermino (Jun 14, 2012)

Crispino Ramos said:


> The LED lighting reminds me of electric cars. I wanted an electric car but the cost was prohibitive, so I just bought a Ford Fiesta.



hmm i think of LED's is like LCD/plasma TV's where CRT TV's is like bulbs. No doubt you can still use them but if you want those "features" - LED's is the way to go. 

plus it's just a cool factor. I mean you could always just buy any tablet - but the cool kids buy ipad's *shrugs*


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Lowe said:


> Agreed. And same applies to LEDs without question. There are many 'notables' one must dig in to when selecting LEDs....


Funny you showed up, I just referred a friend to your Website to look at Quality LED lighting . She has the same Finnex 4gl w/the CLF clip light, I have and wants to grow HC. 

:biggrin:


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## Crispino L Ramos (Mar 29, 2008)

Would the Marineland LED lighting fixture sufficiently provide enough light for a 40 gallon breeder tank?

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produ...312&subref=AA&CAWELAID=1059619475&cagpspn=pla


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## nokturnalkid (Apr 3, 2007)

Crispino Ramos said:


> Would the Marineland LED lighting fixture sufficiently provide enough light for a 40 gallon breeder tank?
> 
> http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produ...312&subref=AA&CAWELAID=1059619475&cagpspn=pla


That light won't do it, neither will their double bright. Marineland did come out with a fixture specifically for planted tanks. It uses higher powered leds that should grow just about anything. For bigger tanks, I would say diy a fixture may get you more bang for the buck since you can space out the leds for better coverage of the tank(this includes using whatever optics you want) and being able to make the whole thing dimmable depending if you want low or high lighting.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

Crispino Ramos said:


> Would the Marineland LED lighting fixture sufficiently provide enough light for a 40 gallon breeder tank?
> 
> http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produ...312&subref=AA&CAWELAID=1059619475&cagpspn=pla


40 gallon breeder is 16" tall. With 2 inches of substrate, you are looking at about 14" from light to substrate. Marineland Double Bright, 36" - 48" fixture, produces 54 par at 12". Thats well into the "medium light" range, and could grow most plants. 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=160396


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

livingword26 said:


> 40 gallon breeder is 16" tall. With 2 inches of substrate, you are looking at about 14" from light to substrate. Marineland Double Bright, 36" - 48" fixture, produces 54 par at 12". Thats well into the "medium light" range, and could grow most plants.
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=160396


roud:roud:roud:

Hard to argue with the Math


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Dogfish,

I am currently testing a 24" prototype LED retrofit with double rows of LEDs totaling 26 watts. The spectrum is supposed to be approximately 6700K, and visually it looks the same as my 6700K CFL's. 

I first tested it over my 30 gallon long. My 2X36 watt CFL's measured 81 PAR at 13.5" to substrate through a dirty (water spots, dust, mineral deposit) Versa-top. The LED prototype measured 78 PAR with the same parameters.

Then I measured it against a 1X55 watt CFL on a 20 gallon high with approximately 17" from fixture to bare bottom with a dirty Versa-top in place. The 1X55 watt with an approximately 9300K bulb measured 89 PAR directly under the fixture and 84 PAR along the front glass. The LED prototype measured 75 PAR directly under the fixture and 75 PAR at the front glass.

I know approximately what the price for these units will be and considering I buy $40 worth of CFL bulbs per year and this unit uses less than 1/2 the power saving me approximately $1 per month at $0.10 per KWH I can envision a payback of about 2 years over purchasing a CFL fixture.

Which is CFL and which is LED? Both pictures taken with the same settings with no photoshop adjustments.


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

2nd is led?


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## Lowe (Nov 11, 2011)

DogFish said:


> Funny you showed up, I just referred a friend to your Website to look at Quality LED lighting . She has the same Finnex 4gl w/the CLF clip light, I have and wants to grow HC.
> 
> :biggrin:


:thumbsup: . Hey, how's that new tank build you showed me at the swap?


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## Crispino L Ramos (Mar 29, 2008)

I thought the first/top picture was with LED. :/


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi jcgd and Cris,

The point I was trying to make is that they 'look' almost identical; I wasn't starting a contest! lol

That said, the first is the 2X36 watt CFL and the second one is the LED.


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

grown with LEDs only


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

nokturnalkid said:


> That light won't do it, neither will their double bright. Marineland did come out with a fixture specifically for planted tanks. It uses higher powered leds that should grow just about anything. For bigger tanks, I would say diy a fixture may get you more bang for the buck since you can space out the leds for better coverage of the tank(this includes using whatever optics you want) and being able to make the whole thing dimmable depending if you want low or high lighting.


Well based on the info that samamorgon collected, I'd say its worth a shot.



livingword26 said:


> 40 gallon breeder is 16" tall. With 2 inches of substrate, you are looking at about 14" from light to substrate. Marineland Double Bright, 36" - 48" fixture, produces 54 par at 12". Thats well into the "medium light" range, and could grow most plants.
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=160396


 I think the par is just right for a 40gb. If anything its about 5-10 over par than I'd ultimately want. I just purchased 4 40g breeder and I was going to do a little experiment with ML double brights on 2 tanks and probably the Finnex on the other two. I wanted to see what growth will come about using Aquasoil on two vs MTS on two. This will determine what I use for my 180g build after testing these two.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

flight50 said:


> I think the par is just right for a 40gb. If anything its about 5-10 over par than I'd ultimately want. I just purchased 4 40g breeder and I was going to do a little experiment with ML double brights on 2 tanks and probably the Finnex on the other two. I wanted to see what growth will come about using Aquasoil on two vs MTS on two. This will determine what I use for my 180g build after testing these two.


The only PAR data I've seen on the Finnex Ray II, is for the 16, 18, and 24 inch fixtures. The 24 inch fixture has 87 par at 12 iches, and the Marineland Double Bright 24 inch fixture has 35 par at 12 inches. 

So if you do the math, out to the 36 inch fixtures, based off of the Marineland 36 inch fixture being 54 par at 12 inches, then the Finnex could be 140 par at 12 inches. I didn't really do the math, I just used those 2 sizes, so the increase curve may be different for the different brands. Either way, the Finnex is going to be a much higher light range, maybe to high for a short tank.


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## MeiMay (Jul 10, 2012)

I personally would say savior. I just bought the Marineland LED light for aquatic plants. It has a timer built in so you can set when you want the moonlight or daylight to come on. I set the blue lights to come on an hour before the day light comes on and they turn off an hour after the day lights turn off. I love it! the design is much more sexy and sleek then my old halogen fixture (which I thought was big, bulky, and ugly. The only bad thing is that they are not very wide and my tank is 16X16X16" so I had to purchase 2 lights, but even with 2 they still look very good on top of the tank and getting 2 has stopped my fish from jumping out the tank.

http://www.amazon.com/Marineland-Aquatic-Plant-Lighting-System/dp/B0085TVDUO/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_2?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1341988292&sr=1-2-fkmr2&keywords=marineland+aquatic+led+light+with+timer

I think the spectrum of light it puts out makes my tank look 100x better and my plants are growing super fast. I have to trim my glosso every other day to keep it uniform. Here are some pictures so you can be the judge. Sorry guys if the pictures don't come out it is my first time posting, but the first photo is my tank with the old lights during the day time and the second photo is with the new LED lights during the day as well. Both of the photos were taken with my phone.
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...25813687393.2149196.1320550735&type=3&theater

[/IMG]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...25813687393.2149196.1320550735&type=3&theater


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

Wow. Marineland says each of those lights have 170 par at 12". The upper edge of "high" light is 120-130 par. I hope you are not overtaken by algae, but I don't know how you are going to escape it. 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=160396


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## MeiMay (Jul 10, 2012)

Haha yea actually I did start seeing some hair algae on some of the plants and the glass, it was like a 5 o'clock shadow everyday! I realized Increasing one thing means you have to increase everything else so I increased the fertilizers and Co2. After increasing everything I added 2 Amano shrimp and 2 oto cats and it went away. I am back to cleaning the glass once a week instead of everyday although I did notice I'm getting more of that white protein coating on the top of the water every morning. Its pretty ugly and gross and I skim it out by hand every morning. I heard ADA makes a cute little protein skimmer I might eventually order to take care of that icky film on top, but I'm not sure how well it works.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

MeiMay said:


> Haha yea actually I did start seeing some hair algae on some of the plants and the glass, it was like a 5 o'clock shadow everyday! I realized Increasing one thing means you have to increase everything else so I increased the fertilizers and Co2. After increasing everything I added 2 Amano shrimp and 2 oto cats and it went away. I am back to cleaning the glass once a week instead of everyday although I did notice I'm getting more of that white protein coating on the top of the water every morning. Its pretty ugly and gross and I skim it out by hand every morning. I heard ADA makes a cute little protein skimmer I might eventually order to take care of that icky film on top, but I'm not sure how well it works.


Well good luck. that is a nice looking setup.


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