# Planted tank + South/Central American Cichlid sugestions?



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

My original plan was to have a planted 55G community tank. But I think I may alter that plan depending on your suggestions.

I want to keep some kind of larger New World Cichlids (4-6+ inches give or take). I am _hoping_ to find something that will tolerate sharing the tank with a few Bushy-nose plecos, some Sword-Tails and possibly some Gouramis or other medium sized community fish. (This is not a requirement if I find the right fish) 

The tank will have medium to tall plants in the background, accompanied by manzanita with an open foreground. Substrate will be light sand.

I am hopping for something that can potentially spawn in normal Utah Tap water(ph7.8, meduim-hard water), but this is not a requirement as this will be some what of a show tank rather then a breeding setup.

My current thoughts are:

Angle Fish
Rainbow Cichlids
Firemouth Cichlids

Any suggestions? (Not Discus )


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## toddnbecka (Sep 4, 2006)

Check out my pics in this thread:http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/fish/124004-i-need-some-suggestions.html
I have loads of 2-3" juvies ready to ship out now. They're bred and raised in hard, alkaline water, very mellow fish that play well with others (aside from rival conspecifics after they pair off) and don't uproot or eat plants.


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## swim423 (Oct 10, 2010)

Hey, I was in your shoes not too long ago. In my 55gal I have 4 angels, 1 discus, 6 blue rams, 3 rosaline sharks, and about 8 cardinal tetras. You shouldnt have a problem mixing these with gourami's. Your PH is high for the fish i just listed. I keep mine between 6.6 and 6.8 and temp around 84.


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## swim423 (Oct 10, 2010)

pic


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

toddnbecka said:


> Check out my pics in this thread:http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/fish/124004-i-need-some-suggestions.html
> I have loads of 2-3" juvies ready to ship out now. They're bred and raised in hard, alkaline water, very mellow fish that play well with others (aside from rival conspecifics after they pair off) and don't uproot or eat plants.


Tell me more about these "chanchito's" ... Sp name, common name, etc so I can look up some more info. I like the color. Very intereting*.



Still looking for more suggestions, anyone?*


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## toddnbecka (Sep 4, 2006)

Chanchito is a common name for a whole family of cichlids from Uruguay. These are Australoheros oblongum, the smallest and most mellow species of the complex. Males max out between 5-6", females about 4". They live naturally in very hard, alkaline water (similar to Malawi cichlids), not something you'd expect from a SA fish. They're also more cold tolerant, winter temps into the 50's are normal, but don't seem to mind warmer water either. They form a very strong pair-bond that doesn't break when they aren't spawning, and the males don't beat up the females (or vice versa) between spawns. My breeding pair has been moved to different tanks repeatedly, mixed with everything from Malawi Hap's and peacocks, severums, Synodontis and loaches, BN pleco's, and several other mellow types of cichlids like Gymnogeophagus and curviceps w/out any issues among any of them. 
A spawning pair claims a small territory, eggs are laid on the substrate, and guarded by both parents. However, they aren't aggressive enough to defend the eggs from other fish. I've even read about Corydoras catfish eating their eggs. After the eggs hatch the females moves the adhesive wigglers into whatever plants are available, Najas in my tanks, and both parents guard them until they're free-swimming, about a week. If the brood makes it that far in a community tank the fry disappear shortly afterwards, they need their own tank (or a divider) to successfully raise any fry IME. They are a slow-growing fish, I have cutteri that were spawned within a week of the oblongum juvies (currently 2-3") that have been large enough to pair off for some time. The only thing that prevents them is the cooler water in their unheated basement tank. That wouldn't affect the oblongums though, and even those kept at warmer temps don't grow any faster than the rest. Incidentally, I also have dozens of cutteri available. They're also a fairly mellow smaller SA species, much easier to find info on than the oblongum.

Oblongum juvies:


















Old pic of cutteri juvies:









Cutteri pair:









Fry:


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

What are there breeding requirements and how many adults could I keep in a 55g (including at least 1 breeding pair)???


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## toddnbecka (Sep 4, 2006)

You could easily keep 2-3 established breeding pairs in a 55. I grew out the last load in a 75 and had several pairs spawning at the same time in opposite corners of the tank. There were actually dozens of them in tha tank, but most weren't paired off. No mayhem or beat-up fish among them, too much confusion, and of course the eggs didn't last more than a day. Right now I have 2 29's housing 50-60 juvies in each tank with even more in a couple others. 
Breeding requirements are simple, get a group and grow them out until they pair off. I feed mine mainly NLS 1mm Cichlid pellets (.5mm Grow pellets for the fry/juvies), occaisonally veggie flakes or frozen bloodworms for variety. Water is hard/alkaline, I wouldn't recommend pH lower than 7. They do like live plants like Najas or java moss, and good water quality in general.


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

Wow, I am liking what I am hearing  So having 2 pairs and an extra female would be perfect for a 55? What is the smallest tank you could house a breeding pair in? I have an extra 20gallon tank right now that could use some fish love.


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## toddnbecka (Sep 4, 2006)

A 20 would be fine for a breeding tank, that's the size tank the person I originally got a group from used, but a swarm of fry will outgrow it. I use a 29 for breeding, move the parents out when it gets crowded, then start moving the juvies to other tanks for further growout as they get bigger. I have a Carapo knife fish in a 40 gallon tank to help with the extra fish, but with the cutteri and oblongum spawning within a week there were more extra fry than the knife fish could chow down before they grew. The proven pairs from the last batch sold for $40 each on aquabid, but it will be a while longer before these will start pairing off.


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

Is it easy to get a pair? just stick a Male and Female and let them grow up together? I am thinking that I want a pair even if i dont go this route for the 55. I have 16 tanks so Im good on space roud:


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## toddnbecka (Sep 4, 2006)

The cutteri are easy enough to pair up randomly, but not the oblongum. My original group turned out to be 4m/3f that I put into a 30L with some BN and L-333's to grow out. I ended up with 2 pairs, and had to move the other 3 out to keep them from being stressed to death in the middle. I eventually swapped off 5 and just kept the first pair that had started spawning. The second pair in the 30 didn't have enough space to establish a suitable territory, and the other 3 didn't pair off even months after being moved. 
They're very effective for snail control. I barely had a few ramshorns surviving in the 30 until I moved the breeding pair to another tank. They were eating the BN fry as they came along, though they never bothered the larger pleco's, and the snail population quickly went ballistic after they were moved. When I thin out the ramshorns in other tanks I drop them into the 75's for cichlid snacks. IME Malawi peacocks are also rather fond of them.
I have 13 tanks running now, another 55 that needs resealed, and a 125 waiting to be set up. The 125 will free up 2 of the 75's for the oblongum juvies to move into for further growout. I also have brown and fire red BN pleco's available if you need some algae control...


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

What is my best bet for getting a pair of oblongum?


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## toddnbecka (Sep 4, 2006)

Either get a group to grow out and swap off the extras after you have a pair, or wait a few more months until I have established pairs available. Random juvies are $5/each or $25/6 + shipping. Priority Mail, styro-lined box and 72 hour heat pack is usually around $15, depending on your zip code.


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

toddnbecka said:


> Either get a group to grow out and swap off the extras after you have a pair, or wait a few more months until I have established pairs available. Random juvies are $5/each or $25/6 + shipping. Priority Mail, styro-lined box and 72 hour heat pack is usually around $15, depending on your zip code.


How much will established / guaranteed pairs be?


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## toddnbecka (Sep 4, 2006)

Likely $20 minimum, that was the starting bid last time around when they went for $40/pair.


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

That sounds like a decent price. I would be willing to hold out for a pair. By then weather should be better. And hopefully I can pick a pair that displays good color/ patterns etc.


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## toddnbecka (Sep 4, 2006)

Once they pair off they maintain the pattern even when they aren't actually spawning or raising fry. The cold weather isn't any problem for shipping, I have styro for insulating boxes and 72 hour heat packs on hand. Never had any DOA's with these fish, and very few among the hundreds of BN pleco's and other fish I've shipped out.


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

toddnbecka said:


> Once they pair off they maintain the pattern even when they aren't actually spawning or raising fry. The cold weather isn't any problem for shipping, I have styro for insulating boxes and 72 hour heat packs on hand. Never had any DOA's with these fish, and very few among the hundreds of BN pleco's and other fish I've shipped out.


Sounds good. I definitely want establish pairs if possible. So let me know when you have some available.


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## robxc80 (Aug 4, 2009)

try cryptoheros nanoluteus. they are gorgeous, a little more placid than cutteri, and stay a tad bit smaller. I loved mine when i had them and they bred readily.

Mixing Thorichthys and Cryptoheros/Amatitliana species are your best bet for a 55 tank and they will mix with your swordtails and almost give you a biotope tank. For Thorichthys, Maculpinnis (ellioti) and Mixteco Blue's are my favorites and you can't go wrong with either. You can go old school with firemouths too if you like but firemouths get a tad bit larger.

A pair of each and perhaps a third wheel of each will help diffuse the aggression and should give you plenty of action. 

good luck!


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## gnomemagi (Dec 9, 2009)

I would agree with Thorichthys species being great and I wouldn't think they would bother plants. 

A single Severum in that size tank would make a great centerpiece fish - I used to have a pair and they left most plants alone - they would nibble on Java Fern but never touched sword plants. 

When you get to this size of fish that you are looking at you are probably giving up the ability to keep stem plants unless you give them a long time to establish and root I would think.


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

robxc80 said:


> ...Mixing Thorichthys and Cryptoheros/Amatitliana species are your best bet for a 55 tank and they will mix with your swordtails and almost give you a biotope tank. For Thorichthys, Maculpinnis (ellioti) and Mixteco Blue's are my favorites and you can't go wrong with either....
> 
> ...A pair of each and perhaps a third wheel of each will help diffuse the aggression and should give you plenty of action...


Any specific recommendations on a Thorichthys sp.? And can I possibly keep them with the Australoheros oblongum?

I am considering keeping some type of Amatitliana sp. but not in this particular tank. Maybe in a spare 20 or 29 that I have.



gnomemagi said:


> When you get to this size of fish that you are looking at you are probably giving up the ability to keep stem plants unless you give them a long time to establish and root I would think.


Yeah I don't think i will be doing any stem plants. It will be mostly crypts and java fern, and maybe some swords. Plants will have larger rocks around the base to detour potential digging, etc.


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## robxc80 (Aug 4, 2009)

i would go with thorichthys maculpinnis (called ellioti in some circles) or Mixteco blue. By far the best in color. Blue Aureum is gorgeous too. maculpinnis is probably the easiest to procure though...and all three would have to be sourced via internet. try tangledupincichlids.com . As for your oblongum, those are almost temperate and would ideally prefer temps in the low to mid 70's and really lack the refined beauty of the central american cichlasomines imo.

the swords will get such a large root structure that you should be ok with them.


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

robxc80 said:


> i would go with thorichthys maculpinnis (called ellioti in some circles) or Mixteco blue. By far the best in color. Blue Aureum is gorgeous too. maculpinnis is probably the easiest to procure though...and all three would have to be sourced via internet. try tangledupincichlids.com . As for your oblongum, those are almost temperate and would ideally prefer temps in the low to mid 70's and really lack the refined beauty of the central american cichlasomines imo.
> 
> the swords will get such a large root structure that you should be ok with them.



How many Thorichthys maculpinnis could I keep in a 55G (including at least 1 breeding pair) along with my swordtails and plecos?


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## robxc80 (Aug 4, 2009)

i would start off with a group of 6-8 juveniles and let them grow up. you'll be left with one or two pairs and sell the rest on here or other forums. You'll be able to tell by the dynamics when they mature how many you can safely keep. I'd guess 3-4 max if you have no other cichlids in there.

If you add another species, i'd keep a pair and maybe spare female in another tank in case teh male kills the female.


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

It sounds like these might be more aggressive then my previous choice. I might pass on these then.


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## robxc80 (Aug 4, 2009)

they aren't aggressive at all.


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

robxc80 said:


> ... in case teh male kills the female.


I am looking minimal to NO aggression what so ever, even during spawning. I dont mind a little nipping or chasing as that is pretty normal with all the other Cichlid sp. and larger fish I keep, but I dont want to have to be moving fish every time there is a spawn.

Or did I misunderstand what you were referring too? :fish:

Also, if the Thorichthys maculipinnis does better in a sp. tank with no other fish that is fine. I would just prefer to keep them with my swordtails if possible.


My current plans for the setup will be:

3-6 Cichlid sp.(leaning towards Australoheros oblongum or Thorichthys maculipinnis ATM)

5+ Swordtails (currently 2 males and 3 females and will allow for up to 8 or 10 total)


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## robxc80 (Aug 4, 2009)

your tank looks fine.

the thorichthys would be better with your swordtails than your austroloheros since they are biotope correct.

just writing replys on this post makes me want to tear my stem plant tank down and put get some maculpinnis myself.


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