# co2 injection for 10 gallon?



## jhoetzl (Feb 7, 2005)

Well, it probably wouldn't be overkill, just wouldn't have to mix up DIY. You regulate how much co2 you inject, so size wouldn't matter here. But for a 10, a good 2 bottle system with a decent diffusor would do just fine, and could run without a bottle swap for 3 weeks to a month at a time. 

I'd get a hagen/nutrafin ladder, and 2 bottles, and use a mild yeast mix.

However, without knowing your tanks average KH and pH, and lighting, and your source water's KH and pH its hard to recommend much more.
Also, what DIY mix are you using? What is your method for getting it into the tank?


----------



## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

I agree with jhoetzl, getting a CO2 injection system for just a ten might be overkill. That said, I have my ten hooked into my multitank CO2 system. I use the Hagen Ladder as a diffuser in the tank. CO2 tanks here are available in pound measurements, 5, 10, 20 pound being the usual size, I'm not sure how big a 500 g tank would be but I get the feeling it's tiny. I'd say depending on the type of plants you grow and the amount of light you put over the aquarium you could get 3 to 6 months out of that size tank, rough guess-timate.


----------



## gsg (Apr 11, 2005)

Hello,
Have a look at this post i recently opened on another forum before you spend money on a Hagen ladder, it just doesn't work!:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=6594


----------



## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

*Nonsense!*



gsg said:


> Hello,
> Have a look at this post i recently opened on another forum before you spend money on a Hagen ladder, it just doesn't work!:
> 
> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=6594


The ladder works just fine. 

What these guys are not realizing is that a DIY system puts out larger bubbles than the Hagen. Start with a bigger bubble and you won't get full dissolution by the end of the 60 inches of travel on the ladder. I suspect that in 60 inches of travel you can only get so many units of volume (what would we use, grams? cubic centimeters?) so starting with a bigger bubble just means that you have more left at the end. Been there, done that. 

But, there is nothing wrong with the Hagen system. One just has to be aware of the limits of the unit, it can only dissolve so much from any size bubble, the only way to increase input is to get more bubbles, bigger bubbles is not helping. 

Increasing the flow by changing the location of the ladder will help some. Reducing losses in the filter is the better thing to concentrate on. To minimize losses; add a tighter fitting lid to the tank, put in a small internal sponge filter or a canister to minimize surface turbulence. 

IMO, the Hagen system is great for the 10 gallon tank. Perfect. Fool proof. Neat and tidy. Hard to beat for the money. 

But, if you have 45 watts over a 10 gallon, and a powerful HOB filter, it is probably insufficient.

In my book, that is not a system failure, it is user failure. If you try to use the wrong tool for the job, don't blame the tool!


----------



## bpm2000 (Feb 16, 2005)

Sorry if it seems I'm straying off topic (from CO2 injection).

I have the hagen system in my 10, kh of 6. I ditched the premixed packets after the first one and started with the diy recipie (1/4tsp champagne yeast, 1 tsp baking soda, sugar to the level in hagen bottle, warm water). I am getting maybe 1 bubble every 5 seconds ...(around 12bpm) is there something I'm not doing correctly in the mix that might be causing the slower rate of bubble production? Maybe the baking soda? I suppose 6kh is already pretty hard water w/out a need for the bs. Or is this really about the max I can achieve out of the hagen system? 

I am @ 6kh and about 7.2~7.4 ph.. not exactly where I want to be at with the CO2 levels.


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

BPM try without the baking soda... although 1 bubble/s isn't a complete failure. I would ditch the hagen canister and go with a larger container.

I used many different things on my 10gal and finally went back to the ladder. It has it's disadvantages, but I don't have any problem getting the CO2 dissolved, which is the most important part for me. The bubbles actually get so small on their way up that they get stuck in the upper quarter. 

I use a 3 gal soda bottle, so this isn't really the Hagen canister vs other canister issue, more likely the initial size of the bubbles. I found that a regular size airline without any obstructions gives the best results. Anytime I tried to reduce the bubble size by using a smaller hole or smaller diameter tubing the whole thing went under pressure and the bubbles pushed out got bigger rather than smaller.


----------



## Curare (Sep 15, 2004)

I've been fighting this little bugbear for a while.

On small tanks getting good dissolution of co2 is an artform.

Especially if you want to keep it discreet and not take up half your tank with reactors.

I've recently swapped my old system of a co2 reactor in tank for an inline reactor hanging off an old fluval 103. 

It seems to be going great. oh and for the record, the reactor is a garden style in line filter with the element taken out. Seals neatly and cleanly.

I'll try and post some pix up later this week.


----------



## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

Wasserpest said:


> Anytime I tried to reduce the bubble size by using a smaller hole or smaller diameter tubing the whole thing went under pressure and the bubbles pushed out got bigger rather than smaller.


Ah, ha! I never could explain that effect! Thank you!


----------



## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

bpm2000 said:


> I ditched the premixed packets after the first one and started with the diy recipie (1/4tsp champagne yeast, 1 tsp baking soda, sugar to the level in hagen bottle, warm water). I am getting maybe 1 bubble every 5 seconds ...(around 12bpm) is there something I'm not doing correctly in the mix that might be causing the slower rate of bubble production? Maybe the baking soda?


I found that champagne yeast did not like baking soda, but bread yeast did.


----------



## Cheeseybacon (Feb 13, 2005)

So some reason I can't seem to get the whole yeast recipe down correctly for my 10-gallon. My recipes always fall flat on their face about a week after they've been made. I've tried several different kinds of yeast and 4 different recipes, but with no luck. I order a milwaukee regulator from Aquabotanics a few days ago so I'm anxious to see how a pressurized setup will do with the Hagen Ladder. Hopefully it isn't overkill as some of you have been saying, if nothing else I'm at least prepared for the 30-gallon that I've been slowing aquiring parts for.


----------



## vwboy53 (Mar 31, 2005)

Well currently I am using a jbl bio2 system. It's like diy but with their pre made mixture. I have a jbl vario diffuser, its like a spiral thing with holes. Not very good I don't think. I can't find any of the hagen diffusers in australia. People stock them but they are all sold out! 

I get a fast bubble rate, but on the diffuser, the bubbles just collect and eventually travel up as a blob till it reaches surface. 

My guess is that not all the co2 is getting disolved. I cant attach a canister filter to my set up because the lid on the tank is one of those plastic molded ones, and it only has a hole on each side at the back to allow a few power cords and airline tube or in my case, co2 tubing roud: 

Also I have a crappy 200L power filter. :icon_roll It works (barely) for my tank, being a light fish load, and picks up the decaying plant matter.


----------



## Anthony (Jan 11, 2005)

The ladder works fine for me in a 37 gallon with an Emperor 280 :icon_bigg . It can be a pain in the @$$ when leaves or stem roots interfere with the bubbles.  I just shelled out the money for a pressurized system, and the next thing will be a better diffusion method.


----------



## vwboy53 (Mar 31, 2005)

Well I thought you may want to see what my tank looks like. It's my first planted tank and been set up since early march. Notice my "HAIR ALGAE", ARRRGGG!  

You can just see a little of the diffuser. Oh and the plant in the pot on the front is supposed to be temporary, It will go in my community tank when it gets larger. (Amazon Sword).
Sorry for bad picture, I did not use my tripod.


----------



## gsg (Apr 11, 2005)

anonapersona said:


> The ladder works just fine.
> 
> What these guys are not realizing is that a DIY system puts out larger bubbles than the Hagen. Start with a bigger bubble and you won't get full dissolution by the end of the 60 inches of travel on the ladder. I suspect that in 60 inches of travel you can only get so many units of volume (what would we use, grams? cubic centimeters?) so starting with a bigger bubble just means that you have more left at the end. Been there, done that.
> 
> ...


Hello:
It's obvious that the Hagen ladder works, bubble size travelling from botton to top can get a size reduction of lets say 60% or even more, so that means co2 is getting dissolved. But what i meant was that with a hagen ladder you are no way getting near to the disolution rates of near 30ppm we are looking for in a planted tank, no way! (at least from my experience: 10g and yeast method). It's going to be hard to achieve this dissolution rates with pasive dissolution (hagen ladders, limewood difusors, etc). Or you go with a power reactor (using pumps or canister filters) or you are not going to make it. I've been experimenting with all the above methods on my 10gallon and finally I had to buy a canister filter, and now I am starting to see some of my DIY Co2 dissolved (15ppm without a reactor, jet).
Taking into account the weakness and inconsistencies of the yeast method, you just can't afford the losses of CO2 the Hagen ladder has on its last step (bubbles scaping through the top), you need all of it dissolved. So perhaps, if you have a Hagen ladder with pressurized co2, where you can crank up the bubbles per minute with a twist of your fingers, there you may see better results with it.
I would like to continue sharing your opinions.
Thanks!.
Guillermo


----------



## bpm2000 (Feb 16, 2005)

anonapersona said:


> I found that champagne yeast did not like baking soda, but bread yeast did.



Ill try doing no BS next time


----------



## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

Wasn't happy with the inconvenience of the Hagen system so went pressurized for the 10 gallon instead. Built an ABS reactor plumbed into an Eheim Ecco 2231.


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

gsg said:


> But what i meant was that with a hagen ladder you are no way getting near to the disolution rates of near 30ppm we are looking for in a planted tank, no way! (at least from my experience: 10g and yeast method). It's going to be hard to achieve this dissolution rates with pasive dissolution (hagen ladders, limewood difusors, etc). Or you go with a power reactor (using pumps or canister filters) or you are not going to make it.


This has not been my experience. There are many disadvantages with the Hagen ladder, but it does dissolve CO2 well. The day before yesterday I put a new (3l) bottle on my 10 gal, and for some reason I got pretty strong production, and last night I measured the pH and it was down to 7.0 (kH is 10) which comes out to... ya know. Made me turn up the AC Mini just to make sure things go well at night. Here is what could be wrong... the hagen bottle is small, and CO2 production is little and doesn't last very long. Increase the bottle size and things will speed up!



gsg said:


> I've been experimenting with all the above methods on my 10gallon and finally I had to buy a canister filter, and now I am starting to see some of my DIY Co2 dissolved (15ppm without a reactor, jet).


I think you -- like Ann mentioned earlier -- are too quick blaming the tools. You had to buy a canister filter... that's quite an investment, not quite necessary I'd say.



gsg said:


> Taking into account the weakness and inconsistencies of the yeast method, you just can't afford the losses of CO2 the Hagen ladder has on its last step (bubbles scaping through the top), you need all of it dissolved. So perhaps, if you have a Hagen ladder with pressurized co2, where you can crank up the bubbles per minute with a twist of your fingers, there you may see better results with it.


I think you hit the nail on it's head here... the ladder isn't what's the problem, it's the CO2. If it doesn't get dissolved, then it is not pure CO2. Is it possible that you are still having some air mixed into the gas? It can take a couple of days to replace the airspace with CO2, perhaps you need to give it some time, depending on how much airspace remains in the reactor. Once it is pure CO2, the bubbles will be really really small in the upper part. Mine usually don't make it to the top, a couple combine and then they do. I think it's close to 99%!


----------



## vwboy53 (Mar 31, 2005)

Well I think I will buy a hagen ladder. At least my lfs has these in stock! My reactor seems to do quite well, lasting me over a month ~45 - 50 days and my guess is that my diffusor is the problem. I get a good bubble rate. Well thankyou all for your advice. You saved me $300 for something unnessesary. I don't have money to blow. I am on a student budget :redface: 
Cheers


----------



## gsg (Apr 11, 2005)

Please, let ut us know about your results with it.
Good luck!.


----------

