# 55 gallon Low Tech soil sub grow out tank (56K warning)



## Trallen44

Looks pretty cool. I like the idea!:thumbsup:


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## wkndracer

*Things getting wet in the kitchen.*

Well,,, finally made some progress last night. I was waiting on a Drs. web order that included UG filter plates that arrived Tuesday and now I’m not even using them LOL. (Maybe there is another tank in my future)
Started assembly Tuesday night with the on hand hardware but when I filled the tank and installed the Marineland Emperor Bio-wheel 400 it leaked water all over! The filter housing was cracked under the right return tray and back of the basket housing. Ugh!!! So no HOB! After toweling the floor and cleaning up my mess at 11:45 pm that filter box skipped across the back patio at a rather high rate of speed. (Picked up the pieces the following day)
So now I have changed my master plan yet again. 
el natural, Diana Walstad type tank as of today. Miracle Grow Organic Choice Potting Mix 32 Qt. (dry) bag was $8.00 and I used nearly ½ the bag for a one inch layer. It’s full of organics as the name implies but no chemical ferts. Very little in the way of sticks or bark pieces in the bag I bought. Capped the soil with 2 bags of Flourite original as I like the color.
I dumped the idea of a pool filter sand layer over / under / between the substrates. Reading strings it can limit gas exchange, CO2 out and O2 into the biomass. Lighting changed also as >2wpg is recommended. 
Lowes has hanging dual T8 48” 32watt fixtures, silver w/ black end caps for $29.00. I bought two and went with 2-6500K, 2-5000K bulbs labeled as daylight and sunshine.
GE daylight 32w, 2700 lumens, 6500K, cri 78
GE sunshine 32w, 2800 lumens, 5000K, cri 86
2.3 watts per gallon.
Lights are set 6 ½” above the tank covers as we plan on rooting terrestrial plants through the tank top as well as having floaters. Based on posts at the APC site to help control nutrient levels in the water and algae several folks have done it. (My wife liked that idea) No hardscape at this time and plan on jungle planting for the cycle. Plant list to follow when I’ve got time and actually get them planted.
A single power head will provide water circulation and a UV sterilizer will be installed.

On with the pictures!

Dirt pile and small amount of sticks
















You can see the color difference between 5000K and 6500K 
















Used egg crate grill material to eliminate gravel creep along the glass







































2 Bag 30lb. Flourite cap plus a 1/4 old bag from the last tank









Filler up!

























Following day setting water GH and planting :thumbsup:


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## Trallen44

It is looking good! Sorry about the problems with the HOB and the flooding. I like the idea of using the egg crate. I will have to keep that in mind if I get a new tank and decide to change up things a bit. Can't wait to see new pics with plants!


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## wkndracer

*Weeds in*

Clouded up a bit but no problem with the organics coming through. I was worried when I worked the root ball on the Echinodorus ‘Kliener Bar’ in at center tank. The leaves are small because of trimming but the roots were fairly large.
It's a pull from the living room tanks.


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## sunfire99

Please be sure to keep us up on your approach with this one. Does this mean you'll be growing Angels anytime soon?? How are you cycling this tank? Be specific please. Thanks!!


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## wkndracer

sunfire99 said:


> Please be sure to keep us up on your approach with this one. Does this mean you'll be growing Angels anytime soon?? How are you cycling this tank? Be specific please. Thanks!!


 

It may mean something else as well but to me cycling is establishing nitrifying bacteria, good (non-sterilized) potting soil should have some. It just takes time for them to grow into the population you need in the tank. The soil I selected was mentioned several times on APC posts by Ms. Walstad.
It was well on its way to being fully mineralized. But still containing small organics it will be a source of minimal CO2 too. The dirt and plants will take a while to settle in and the ammonia that is produced is good food for nitrifying bacteria and the plants. I can accelerate the process by adding some and maintaining 5ppm as is recommended in a fishless cycle but haven’t decided too. If I leave it alone to do its thing it should be more stable. Doing a fishless cycle you add ammonia and maintain it at 5ppm until you read a nitrite indication and then drop back on the amount but continue to supply it.
It may take a few weeks or a month for the soil to settle in and convert to a submerged stable state of decay. During this time the nitrifying bacteria can grow and the plants are rooting and growing. 
In this start up period the aquarium may not be a very good habitat for fish as it may not be stable.

To tell you all the whole truth,,,,,,, the reason I’ve decided to go this route is because having 5 or 6 tanks requiring nearly daily dosing and 50% weekly WC will burn me out. After a year keeping two (which isn’t bad) I know I don’t want to keep a ½ dozen this way. Life has too many other interests for me.


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## sunfire99

So using mineralized soil there's not a requirement to add ammonia? I've never cycled this way, or any way other than adding fish, or inverts in salt tanks, to begin a cycle. Still trying to wrap my hands around when I will have had a cycle in a planted tank if the plants take up the ammonia before "normal" nitrification cycle can begin. At what point will I know I can add fish, or more fish? Thanks for the info? Sorry to hijack with these questions. Tell me to go away if you like:help:.


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## wkndracer

*go away*

NO WAY! this is what forums are for. :thumbsup:
With plants in the tank and normal substrate you can add fish right away. (within reason) Plants help prevent ammonia and nitrites from building to hazardous levels. They actually prefer them to nitrate (NO3) because its easier for them to use it. I have decaying organic matter in the tank that could cause a rapid spike you don't.
Bacteria still build up just over a longer period with plants competing.


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## wkndracer

Miracle Grow Organic Choice Potting Soil *IS NOT* mineralized soil, it has organics present (fine mulch). It will finish the process of mineralization in the tank, decaying under the gravel. That's why its not stable right away. Mineralization IMO is a fancy word for rot. Dry it rots slower, once submerged the chemical decomposition rate will change and then stabilize again at a new rate. Ammonia spikes could kill fish rapidly in my tank if the gas trapped, built up and released. I don't think it happens often but can.

I don't have Ms. Walstad's book yet but plan on purchasing one. I've read on the internet on the subject gathering what I can from others and also know what I've seen in southern swamps regarding organic break down. It won't be too different in the tank just more contained. As our environmental specialists at work are so fond of saying 'the solution to pollution is dilution' its contained in the tank so I'm being careful.


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## wkndracer

*Tank @ 48hrs.*

I set the R O water using Grumpy's GH booster @ 6dGH and baking soda @ 3dKH. Adding a standard 55g dose of CSM+B, Fe dosed to .6ppm, 20ml excel on 4/03/09
Testing today 10dGH, 3dKH, PO4 2ppm, Ammonia 0.0-.25 minimum color change.
Nitrite and nitrate I expected zero readings and tested just that.

Starting plants are chain swords, Kliener bar sword, crypt wendtii reds, repoens, Bacopa colorata, water sprite and narrow leaf sag.

I'm thinking about dosing NO3 and K2SO4 or leaf zone to help bridge the plants.
Water is still slightly cloudy. The only filtration is a power head feeding an eheim spray bar to break up the flow with an old sponge on the intake.


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## sunfire99

wkndracer said:


> NO WAY! this is what forums are for. :thumbsup:
> With plants in the tank and normal substrate you can add fish right away. (within reason) Plants help prevent ammonia and nitrites from building to hazardous levels. They actually prefer them to nitrate (NO3) because its easier for them to use it. I have decaying organic matter in the tank that could cause a rapid spike you don't.
> Bacteria still build up just over a longer period with plants competing.


So, do you think it's safe to add a school of fish after the plants are in? I've done a lot of reading about this but there didn't seem to be a real theme that everyone agreed on. I plan to have a school of 15-20 Rummynose Tetras. How many would you add initially once planted? Thanks Mike!!


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## sunfire99

Oh, and the tank looks good!! Is it under a counter of some kind. Good diea using that kind of space for a tank. I'm negotiating with the wife where to put up a 20 for a QT tank. Can't imagine she'll let me use the kitchen .


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## wkndracer

sunfire99 said:


> So, do you think it's safe to add a school of fish after the plants are in? I've done a lot of reading about this but there didn't seem to be a real theme that everyone agreed on. I plan to have a school of 15-20 Rummynose Tetras. How many would you add initially once planted? Thanks Mike!!


My tank, I'd add all the Rummynose right off with the plants.



sunfire99 said:


> Oh, and the tank looks good!! Is it under a counter of some kind. Good diea using that kind of space for a tank. I'm negotiating with the wife where to put up a 20 for a QT tank. Can't imagine she'll let me use the kitchen .


The 55g is indeed under a counter in the kitchen. The 110g will be at the opposite end in the kitchen as well. The Kitchen is 16' 6" w X 23' long with counter top and appliances down one wall and three sets of louvered double doors on the other. The first two sets are pantry / closets, the third set is to the home office and access to the back porch.


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## Trallen44

Looking great! Now just need some babies to put in there.


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## Katydid

Looks nice. A bit jealous here, as All I have is a tank with water and substrate so far, no time to get plants yet. And for fish I'm gonna have to drive up to St Augustine. (Yay).


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## wkndracer

*Trouble Maker*



Trallen44 said:


> Looking great! Now just need some babies to put in there.


Hey Tim, what are you a trouble maker?
Like they need an excuse,,, my rabbit fish are at it again. This is today, right now, in the office low tech. I probably should start a journal for each flipping tank. :icon_redf




























I've pulled black [email protected]#h and am currently dripping from the kitchen tank into a 5g bucket with her in it. Now I'll have to watch the water daily as I'm jump starting the stocking. At least I've got a good supply of usable water with the R O system holding 105 gallons ready to go at 78 degrees.


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## sunfire99

They laid on your magnet? Give them horny little Angels some egg laying surfaces man.:hihi: At least it will be easy to pull them out.:thumbsup: I'm with the trouble maker, you're just shy of some babies in that tank.


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## sunfire99

wkndracer said:


> The 55g is indeed under a counter in the kitchen. The 110g will be at the opposite end in the kitchen as well. The Kitchen is 16' 6" w X 23' long with counter top and appliances down one wall and three sets of louvered double doors on the other. The first two sets are pantry / closets, the third set is to the home office and access to the back porch.


I hope the floor is well supported. Is the kitchen on a slab, or??? I very smoothly negotiated setting up the 20G QT tank today. It's in my garage office. No way it was going in the kitchen, but she did let me move my stuff to make room for it.:redface: At least I'll have one to look at while I'm working now. I have a 42G Oceanic Hex to setup next. Any experience with that size tank and Angels? Seems like there should be room for a breeding pair, and I may just keep it for that.


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## wkndracer

Hey Steve, house is single story concrete all the way. 10g per adult is a good rule of thumb. 42g would make a great planted low tech breeder though.


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## Trallen44

Dang!!! You found out my middle name!!! I try so hard to keep it a secret too!!! And it looks like I am not the only one. LOL So are you going to pull the magnet, or leave it and see what happens? You have more tanks now, it is time to start filling them with fish!!


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## Erin

Check your water paramaters and you might be surprised as to how soon you can add fish. I have always added fish same day and never had a problem. 

Regards,
Erin


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## wkndracer

*eggs*

Hey Tim, 
We went to dinner at a friends house tonight and just returned, 11:45PM. Spawn is intact because we removed Blackie this afternoon before leaving so its now only four angels in the tank with the parents being the two largest. We will leave the eggs in place and allow the hatch to occur if it's fertile and go from there. Three days after filling the soil sub tank has a fish in it.


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## Trallen44

And where are the pics? LMAO Now that you found out my middle name I have to live up to it!! I have eggs here too. I hope both of ours make it this time! This is the third time for me.


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## hydrophyte

this is a great idea. i have had something like this in mind and i'm intersted to see how this develops.


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## wkndracer

*DIY of sorts and stocking*

Using a power head as the sole filtration / circulation method and wanting to collect debris I thought about sponge filters but the Penguin 1140 has a cone shaped intake for UG tubes. With the soil sub I nixed the UG plates. 
The 1140 pushes enough water for white water rafting too. :icon_eek:
Filter floss and zip straps! :icon_idea Fits the low tech theme right? Cut a 6 1/2" strip long enough for 1 1/2 wraps and ta da!
Curbed the output fire nozzle like flow using extra spray bar and suction tube parts by drilling the suction sections and mounted four pieces on the discharge. The resulting spray bar flow is much more angel fish friendly being spread out. When fry are added young the larger surface area of the intake won't hold any swimming too close either :thumbsup:










The last section creates good center tank surface ripple.









Company for 'BB' in the form of a young DD super veil that's been in quarantine since 1/19/09









I really like the sponge painted back round now that the tank is planted too.
It blends but being dull highlights plant color the way I had hoped.


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## Trallen44

Looks like that filter idea is going to work great. With the way you are going, I wouldn't be surprised if these two don't end up being a pair and this tank ends up a breeding tank instead of a growout tank. This tank is looking really great!


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## wkndracer

*Changes happening quickly*

Too many tanks at the moment with everything changing!
Water is already showing NO2 (nitrite) at 7 days wet. 

Here's the track on my first soil sub tank so far. 
Filled 4/29/09, 4/30/09 water set at 6dGH with Rex Griggs grumpy mix and KH with baking soda to 3dKH then planted. Decided to bridge the plants from my high light injected tanks with some ferts.= CSM+B, Excel 20mL, Fe .6ppm, Nutrifin Cycle 40mL. Right or wrong made the additions, I'll see how it goes.
5/1/09 more plants. 
5/2/09 Due to breeding activities and egg eating behavior an Angel was moved into this tank so first fish in. 10dGH (hardness climbed 4dGH), 3dKH, pH 7.0, NH4 (ammonia) <.25, NO2 (nitrite) 0.0, NO3 (nitrate) 0.0, PO4 (phosphate) <2ppm. Dose NO3 17.3ppm, Leaf Zone 20mL.
5/3/09 30g WC, 2dKH, 2dGH. Reset water to 6dGH, 3dKH, Fe .6ppm, NO3 16ppm, CSM+B, Nutrifin Cycle 30mL. Add 15 grass shrimp, Medium DD B angel. Add a small air driven sponge filter.
5/4/09 NH4 <.25ppm, NO2 0.0, NO3 15ppm 
5/5/09 NH4 >.50ppm, NO2 0.0 (WC on living room tank and no time for this one as its 11:30pm) Remove Medium DD B angel.
5/6/09 NH4 <.50 (dropped), NO2 <.25 (reading)
40g WC 4dGH, 2.5dKH, NO3 <10ppm, NH4 <.25, NO2 <.25
Reset water to 6dGH, 3dKH eliminated fert. dosing but added Nutrifin Cycle 40mL.

Bacopa stems have grown 1 1/2 - 2" and produced 3-4 leaf sets per stem. The other plants look OK with minor new growth. Added more java moss. Introduced duck weed and terrestrial plants, 2 Ivy stems and a green spider are draping roots into the water by the power head.


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## Trallen44

With each new picture, I am liking that background more and more! The tank is really looking great.


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## wkndracer

Update today on the settling in water issues. NO2 (nitrites) are here big time today! Tested the tank getting home from work and NO2 was >1.0ppm. 
35g WC, 5 minute pump run and NO2 >.25 but not by much. 
35g WC and it tested zero. Reset to 6dGH, 3dKH so now wait and see how fast it climbs again.
I've not been able to find any info on threshold limits for readings on NO2 or NH3 / NH+4 that are allowable with fish so my R O unit is on OT.


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## wkndracer

*Save a fish*

Went to Wallie World today as they had received an ammo shipment and had 30-06, 38 specials and 12ga. high brass loads. Bought my limit of 6 boxes per customer and as I was heading out the door passed the pet department.
In a tank staving to death and surrounded by ugly guppies was an abused blushing veil angel. Same fish that was there the last ammo run. I pointed it out to the wife at the time showing her the squared tail and short ventral fins damaged in shipping. I said to her if it lives a week it will be a lucky fish. Well it lived a week so I bought it.









If it can live a week at Walmart it will live in my Walstad style tank though the start up cycle :thumbsup: At least I test the water daily and feed bread to my prisoners once a week.


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## Trallen44

Cool save!!! I think it will make a great addition to your angel family. They have limits now on how many boxes of shells you can buy?


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## wkndracer

*Plenty of guns but no ammo*



Trallen44 said:


> Cool save!!! I think it will make a great addition to your angel family. They have limits now on how many boxes of shells you can buy?


Yup the Obama rush is on. Most stores have had empty shelves lately and sell out again hours after a shipment.
Ammunition Accountability Legislation ​ Remember how Obama said that he wasn't going to take your guns? ​ Well, it seems that his allies in the anti-gun world have no problem with taking your ammo! ​ The bill that is being pushed in 18 states (including Illinois and Indiana ) requires all ammunition to be encoded by the manufacturer and a data base of all ammunition sales. So they will know how much you buy and what calibers. ​ Nobody can sell any ammunition after June 30, 2009 unless the ammunition is coded. ​ Any privately held un coded ammunition must be destroyed by July 1, 2011. (Including hand loaded ammo.) ​ They will also charge a .05 cent tax on every round so every box of ammo you buy will go up at least $2.50 or more! ​ If they can deprive you of ammo they do not need to take your gun! ​ 
I started to pull this reply then stopped. I know for a fact its happening in at least three other states, I've talked to people I know there (the ammo rush) so I'm leaving it.
I'd rather not talk about here if somebody else wants to respond to the situation please re post in the lounge and not my tank thread. Thanx


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## wkndracer

*Water chemistry*

Just an update on whats happened since the big water change on 5/6/09.
Testing again tonight showed NH3/NH4 0.0, NO2 0.25 
NO3 >5.0,<10ppm (guessing color graduation). 
As no NO3 was added with the WC on 5/6 and prior testing showed dropping levels I believe this reading to be tank generated. 
I believe its jumped through its cycle or at least mini cycled (what ever that is).
Further testing in the coming days will tell.

Still the same stocking level of *BB* and the Wallie saved baby.
The plants were all exposed to 19:1 bleach or 10mL per gallon Hydrogen Peroxide dips prior to planting to eliminate algae transfer as much as possible. Did both to see if I could determine one to be better than the other. Both damaged leaf tissue and brown spots seem about the same overall for both. Plants are rebounding very well. Although all the leaves are smaller and less colorful at the moment. The nutrient levels are different in this tank as are the light spectrums provided so it’s not the same growth as the EI tanks. As it levels out more fish will be added but I’m waiting to see stable shifts in water quality first.


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## wkndracer

Water is remainig stable regarding tested levels. Diatoms are now present on older leaves out of direct flow from the spray bar. 7 days without NH3/NH4 readings and water clarity is good. Plant growth is slowing down but plants look healthy. A couple of stems went soft and I pulled them. Can't wait for NO2 to bottom out so I can stock this sucker.


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## wkndracer

Water tests tonight 
NH3/NH4 - 0.0
NO3 - 0.0 to <.5
NO2 - 0.0 NITRITE IS ZERO!!!!!!!!!!! roud:

:bounce:


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## wkndracer

*Tank burped today*

With diatoms now present on older leaves out of direct flow from the spray bar and 9 days without NH3/NH4 readings I added two otto's today. While touching up plant placement I noticed the substrate bulging or humping up. Around the water sprite in particular was almost a mound. Spongy to the touch, I pressed down and gas erupted bringing soil sub with it. Rather exciting! Using my large tweezers I poked around and patted the gravel for several minutes. The odor was a combination of egg and sulfur to describe it. 
Well I grabbed my test kits and started testing! Concerned that the fish may need to be removed. Surprised me again did this tank because the NH3/NH4, NO2, NO3, PO4 were all still 0.0 or very close to it.
One hour later and the water is clear again. There is some soil now laying on top of the Flourite though.
This tank is quite an adventure compared to others I've kept.


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## Trallen44

And you didn't take any pics of it? I know Steve would have loved to see this new development. He is just being nice and letting me start all the trouble. LOL Glad the levels are all checking out good for you.


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## sunfire99

I can't afford to start any trouble. I need Mike to walk me through these soil issues as I'm collecting stuff to start my own low tech soil tank. 

Mike, Glad to see your nitrites bottomed out. What else are you going to be adding to this tank now? Any recent FTS photos you can post?


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## wkndracer

*Stocking update*

Received my order of MTS arriving today from a good member here on the planted tank.(saganco) :thumbsup: Added 35+ to the tank and hoping they will help with the substrate gas build up issue.
NH3/NH4 0.0
NO2 0.0
NO3 5ppm rising
PO4 >2.0ppm rising
7dGH dropped 1dGH
3.5dKH dropped 1.5dKH (I think)
pH 6.6 Which I find hard to believe as I'm not injecting CO2 or adding buffers to the water column. Based on pH/KH/CO2 tables this would be 26ppm. With an air driven filter sponge again I don't believe it to be accurate but am at a loss as to how to explain it.

I took 18 pictures tonight and just got frustrated! Ghost images on the glass mirroring the room, blurred fish, too dark, too bright. NUTZ! another day.


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## Trallen44

I can relate to the picture taking!! I will take 20 or more to get 1 or 2 good ones that can be used.


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## oldpunk78

hahaha, one of the hardest things for me to do is take a good shot of my tank. i always have to take 10-15 pics too just to get one good one.


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## sunfire99

Trallen44 said:


> I can relate to the picture taking!! I will take 20 or more to get 1 or 2 good ones that can be used.


I just take 1 or 2 crappy ones and post 'em anyway. lol

That ph reading _doesn't_ make a lot of sense Mike. Strange.....


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## Trallen44

sunfire99 said:


> I just take 1 or 2 crappy ones and post 'em anyway. lol


And we can tell!! LOL J/K Can you tell I am in a better mood? LMAO


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## wkndracer

*Update or die*

This weekend better be a calm one at my house. Its been a hard week. Before and now pics.
5/7/09








5/19/09 Ceratopteris thalictroides / water sprite is the best preforming plant so far.








5/7/09








5/19/09 gaining size and growth old wilt disappearing. 








Bacopa going emerged growth through the grid.








My wallie baby now swims *BB* and holds it's own at feeding time. Some of the lower bacopa leaves are browning, not sure if it's shading under higher growth or another issue.








I'll call grass shrimp GHOST shrimp in this tank because they can disappear. 


















Full Tank shot after 21 days set up.









There haven't been any more gas eruptions out of the substrate. 
The Repens are 70/30 on lower stem rot issues. The Narrow Leaf Sag is slow to put out new leaves but no dead plants.


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## Trallen44

Tank is looking great man! Definet new growth there! Hope you have a great and quiet weekend!


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## wkndracer

*Water Parameters*

Pre light period water tests today.
pH 7.2, 6.5 dKH, 7 dGH, NO2 0.0, NH3/NH4 0.0, NO3 >5ppm - <10ppm, PO4 (slightly)>2ppm.

Last water change 5/8/09 :icon_mrgr

Diatoms are nearly gone with just two otto's in the tank. Lower Bacopa leaves are sill dropping. Phosphate is high but not not crazy high, just over 2ppm. The desire to dose ferts is hard to resist but water looks good by test results and not dosing is the whole point.

Bumping GH with Ca and Mg. (target 8-9 dGH)

Shut down the air to the added filter sponge today and watching the tank.


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## johnnymax

That just looks too cool. I was skeptical when I saw the first picture of your painted background, but the final look is great!


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## Trallen44

How is the tank going? Have BB and wally paired up yet? LOL


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## wkndracer

Pre light testing results.
7.1pH, 5.5dKH (1dKH drop), 10dGH, NO3 >5ppm - <10ppm (no change), PO4 >2ppm - <5ppm (rising), NO2 0.0, NH3/NH4 0.0
Last water change still 5/8/09. Added 2 gallons of Edwards Discus Mix @ 10dGH, 3.5dKH replacing evaporation. 
The 5.5dKH is too high for a reading of 7.1pH so the soil sub and the bacteria in it must be giving off CO2. The air driven filter sponge has not been restarted. 

Lower Bacopa leaves are still dropping as the other stem issues are continuing. I'm not sure if the light is sufficient at the raised level I have them installed at or its related to the substrate gassing. Time will tell. I'm not unhappy with the tank.

Angels, otto's, shrimp and MTS are all doing well.


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## sunfire99

Good to hear it's doing well. I wonder about the Bacopa though. Some of the ones you sent me barely see light at the bottom, but aren't shedding any leaves, at least not yet. KH at 5.5 is too high to be seeing 7.1ph so it must be CO2 causing it to test lower. I bet you're liking not doing water changes though.


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## wkndracer

*Falling off the posting wagon*

Posting has fallen to the way side of life and sorry to those following it.

The only algae other than diatoms starting out were dealt with yesterday. I had pinned some Java Moss on the spray bar. (wrapped it around the end directly in the flow) The top of that and the spray bar itself developed Blue Green Slime in a thick coating. The PO4 level was over 2ppm so when performing a water change the spray bar was cleaned and the moss discarded.
Two water changes have been done since the large one on 5/8/09 and both were due to rising PO4 and water tannin. Bacopa Colorata seems not to like the lower levels of the tanks but growth is good. The substrate is still gassing a good bit of CO2 and other less pleasant gases.
Hygrophila polysperma has been added and is growing nicely, actually doing better in here than my other 5 tanks.
The terrestrials and duck weed I think are keeping algae in check because its not been an issue.

Little Wallie fish is doubled in size.









The emerged Bacopa has branches.









The terrestrials are throwing roots deep in the back of the tank and growing.


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## wkndracer

*Flowering Bacopa*

This is cool to me. The emerged stem opened a blossom today.


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## sunfire99

That's cool to me also.:thumbsup: That Walmart fish is turning out to be a good looker. Just think it might have been in a 10 gallon tank by now with 5 Bettas, a dozen catfish and some African Cichlids.:eek5: Nice rescue, and glad to hear it's done so well.


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## Trallen44

That flower is very cool! I didn't know that they even flowered. Great job!!


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## wkndracer

I've added two more mid sized domestic (born here in my home) angels bringing the angel count to four. Five otto cats, ??? MTS although as I add or trim plants I can find some easily they are yet to be over running the tank. The shrimp numbers are dropping due to the angels catching them from time to time in the open. I tried last weekend to add fresh water clams and mussles but they all died in 24hrs. The soil is still too green I'm guessing.









I still have substrate gases but no mounding or eruptions anymore. I missed another flower yesterday as they only last about a day then wilt under the lights. I've been busy for two nights after work tending to my high tech/high maintenance tanks









The last water change was 10 days ago and tonights readings are as follows;
TDS 432ppm, pH 7.1, NO3 5ppm, PO4 1ppm, 9dGH, 5dKH, CO2 11.91ppm based on the math between pH and KH values. I have a low tech 55/10 set up in another room with plain old gravel and CO2 was 9.46ppm (again based on the math) With the readings it appears that after 1 1/2 months the soil is still giving me free CO2









I'll post pics in the next couple of days as activities allow.


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## wkndracer

*Modified Flow*

Modified my water circulation this week. 
The Marineland Penguin 1140 states a measured flow of 300gph. Huge when localized in a 55g tank and I just couldn't eliminate the flattening of some plants somewhere in the tank . The plus is that it has the juice to push the water through an Aqua UV and still circulate the tank. Using ½” PVC and Krylon Fusion spray paint I’ve made a tank length spray bar. Still showing surface ripples in some areas but it distributes the flow tank wide nicely. The power head connected to the DIY spray bar equipped with a Marineland reverse flow sponge kit is still the only "filteration" in the tank. This removes any large partials while leaving everything for the plants. It’s very easily serviced and is working quit well so far. Other than when I used the air driven sponge to help the tank over the hump as the soil cycled converting to a submerged state its still the only thing in the tank other than fish, weeds and a heater.


----------



## wkndracer

*Filling in*

Plants are growing and water parameters are getting more stable :biggrin:

That said something will crash LOL.
Last water change due to PO4 was 6/14/09. I did a small WC to vacuum dirt from the early on soil eruptions on 7/1/09 but that was just enough to pull the dirt from around a few plants clearing the fluorite cap. Tested Sunday.
TDS 510ppm, pH7.3, NO3 5ppm, PO4 1ppm (finally), 9dGH, 7.5dKH, Ca2 40ppm, Mg2 11.28ppm, CO2 11.28ppm.

Full tank









Terrestrial and Emerged growth.









New spider plant.









More emerged stem = more flowers :biggrin:


















Roots from above :biggrin:

















In tank growth


----------



## Trallen44

It is really looking great! I love the blooms on the stem plant! Keep up the good work!


----------



## wkndracer

Could not get on and navagate the site last night. So,,, Tim,,, what do you think,,, might this tank enter the *easy to keep contest*?


----------



## Trallen44

I think it enters it! I really haven't done a water change per say on my tank since I rescaped it. I think I did a 5 gal one which isn't much at all. I have just been topping it off. And I just haven't felt up to doing much of anything on the tank. But I would and will do more water changes on it. I think water changes are good, but it is great when you have it set up so they are not needed. Especially when something happens when you can't do them. And I think your tank is working pretty hard on becoming one of those tanks.


----------



## wkndracer

Well its here, I'm over a month now with stable water parameters.
Posting pictures would be more flowers and slightly larger plants. In another week maybe two I'll be trimming this tank.
Sunday I removed nearly all the duck weed floaters allowing all the light into the tank. Also added another fish from one of my other tanks, an adult Flying Fox. This brings the total to 4 Angels, 5 Otto cats, 1 Flying Fox. (not counting grass shrimp) and a building population of MTS. I'll probably add 3-4 Panda Cory's or another cleaner type as time goes on. Along with some Briggs snails when I'm brave enough to try them, right now the substrate is still pretty gassy.

Tested again 7/15/09; TDS 518ppm, pH 7.2, NO3 8ppm - guessing color slightly over 5ppm on the chart,
PO4 1ppm week #5 , 10dGH, 7.5dKH, Ca2 60ppm, Mg 6.98ppm (based on Edwards calculator),
CO2 14.2(based on Edwards calculator) I topped off with probably about three gallons this week.

As posted last time I'm likely to jinx something by posting it but I started on 4/30/09 for my first soil sub tank and in less than 3 months it looks to be totally stable. Other than the blue green slime that started on the spray bar (removed and non recurring) never the algae issue to date. Clearing the floaters I'll be watching for changes on that.


----------



## wkndracer

*Todays pics*

Left side.









Right side









Full tank.









Emergent and terrestrials.


----------



## wkndracer

*3 days growth*

I just can't believe the ammount of growth in just three days! INCHES OF STEM! 
A single stalk that was less than 4" long three days ago is now over 8"

Man I like this tank!



















New nodes growing also that weren't there three days ago.


----------



## Trallen44

Looking really great there Mike!


----------



## wkndracer

Hey Tim, Yeah this one is toooooo easy, just feed the fish and look at it how tough is that to keep up with? :hihi:

*Bummer* is I'm going to have to do a trim cause the plants grow all by themselves


----------



## wkndracer

Trimmed for the first time this weekend. The water sprite was taking over the whole left side. Other than harvesting duckweed this is my first true trim removing plants :icon_cool

New flower bloom this week also. Off the spider plant.









Water column is staying clean so I'm dropping testing to biweekly. :biggrin:
TDS 513ppm, NO3 10ppm, PO4 1.5ppm, slight rise in hardness to 12dGH, 8dKH,
Ca2 60ppm, Mg2 15.69ppm, CO2 15.14ppm (3.5 over my low tech gravel sub tank)


----------



## wkndracer

This tank is still just too easy to maintain. Trim the plants, harvest the duckweed and feed the fish how easy is that? With three tanks holding spawns of Angel fry I’m happy this one is just for looking at. LOL


Starting on top and working down with the pictures. Growth is just great just add fish food :biggrin:































































My little wally world rescue has grown into a pretty blushing veil.


----------



## lauraleellbp

Ok that clinched it; I'm going to put Bacopa in my pond and hope it will flower like that!

Lovely tank, very natural! roud:


----------



## wkndracer

*Moving Day*

Been busy with life and the tanks have almost been on auto pilot.:icon_cool 
This Walstad style 55g even more so than the other 6. Had to do a plant trim to make room for swimmers this weekend though.
Today 15 new fish landed in this tank to help my Wallie rescue baby not be lonely. The new company consists of our keepers from the 55/10 parent raised spawn. 

Little Wallie isn't so little anymore at about silver dollar size.









Our babies are about nickle and dime size now and Mom and Dad get a break because we moved the kids out today.









Just like zebras everyone has a different pattern.









Long straight fins so far on the little guys too. 









It's going to be tough to let any of these go anywhere for us but 25+ more are growing out in the 20L and soon to need a place to go too. :icon_eek:









20g Long crew.


----------



## TipStylez

whats the name of the big plant?


----------



## Trallen44

The baby angels look great!!


----------



## lauraleellbp

TipStylez said:


> whats the name of the big plant?


Water wisteria; _Hygrophila difformis_


----------



## TipStylez

Thanks


----------



## SarahG

Wow, those baby angels look amazing!


----------



## RipariumGuy

Nice tank! Looks better than my only setup?!? Good Job!


----------



## wkndracer

My 1/2 processor computer is killing me but here goes. I can't crop or adjust the exposure of the photos because the software won't run without chocking the machine but here goes.
Tank is still doing great (IMO)









The last water change was 23g on 10/4/09. Currently tested levels this week are as follows;TDS 462, pH 7.4, NO3 <5ppm, PO4 .25ppm, 9dGH, 5dKH, Ca2 50ppm, Mg 8.72ppm, CO2 5.97ppm Very minor GSA is still forming on the glass that I wipe off twice a month (or when company is coming :wink
The 55g in the home office with the breeding pair is still spawning every time I pull a group out within a week they do it again.
Currently I have the product of three spawns growing out so I can give them away.









Found myself with a new floater too. Started with just a little sprig :smile:



















Almost as many plants out as in. :hihi:









Easy to care for once established, I'm really starting to lean towards low tech tanks.


----------



## oldpunk78

wkndracer said:


> Easy to care for once established, I'm really starting to lean towards low tech tanks.


^ i thought that worth repeating. :hihi:

i love my 50g low tech tank. it's kinda like having a tank on cruise control once it gets settled.


----------



## jjlin78

looks good mike, how's the mineralized topsoil tank doing? can you notice a growth difference between the el natural soil vs. the mineralized soil?

did you get rid of the bacoba in this tank?


----------



## Frogmanx82

You have a lot of light for a low tech. How many watts are on it?

Also, could you list the plants you have in and out of the tank?

Looking great. I have a 55 I'm working on and your tank is giving me some ideas. I enjoyed reading through your thread.


----------



## wkndracer

jjlin78 said:


> looks good mike, how's the mineralized topsoil tank doing? can you notice a growth difference between the el natural soil vs. the mineralized soil?
> 
> did you get rid of the bacoba in this tank?


Hey and sorry to take so long on the reply, 
The bacopa is still in there and no on a difference between natural and mineralized subs once the dirt settled in.



Frogmanx82 said:


> You have a lot of light for a low tech. How many watts are on it?
> 
> Also, could you list the plants you have in and out of the tank?
> 
> Looking great. I have a 55 I'm working on and your tank is giving me some ideas. I enjoyed reading through your thread.


Early in the build I listed the lighting and the height off the tank. My computer is still junk and takes forever to load a page with photos in it so looking back for it is hard right now. I'll post an updated plant list when I get a couple of minutes thanx for asking.


----------



## Trallen44

wkndracer said:


> Easy to care for once established, I'm really starting to lean towards low tech tanks.





oldpunk78 said:


> ^ i thought that worth repeating. :hihi:
> 
> i love my 50g low tech tank. it's kinda like having a tank on cruise control once it gets settled.


Glad y'all have seen the light! LOL The tank looks great Mike! So how many angels do you have now? Or is there too many to count? :hihi: Have you had any DD Black veils spawn yet? I think that is the right term for them. Glad to see some updates on your tanks. roud:


----------



## kwheeler91

what kind of angels are those fry you have?


----------



## wkndracer

Trallen44 said:


> So how many angels do you have now? Or is there too many to count? :hihi: Have you had any DD Black veils spawn yet? I think that is the right term for them. Glad to see some updates on your tanks. roud:


Hey Tim!!!, If I ever repair my desktop I'll try and catch up :wink:
Yeah I've had two DD spawns but the pairs are too young yet with so many in the tank to make it through. Considered pulling a spawn and raising in the 20g, just may on the next round if it's empty by then. Currently the angel number is somewhere around 65-70 just in baby count.  !!  !!  In the 55W ready to go are 29 and some too small yet, 15 in the 20g ready to go and a new spawn coming up in the 55/10 that is currently to many to count. The average survival after predation is 25 - 30 per spawn. We've actually seen otto's eat new free swimmers which kind of came as a surprise. 



kwheeler91 said:


> what kind of angels are those fry you have?


I have two types currently Smoky veil / Gold veil cross and standard stripe / stripe veil (I thought) The mother must repress a zebra gene as over 1/2 of each spawn has grown into zebra veil.


----------



## londonloco

Just saw this thread linked from another thread. I love the idea of the egg crate for emergent plants. Def gonna try that...TY! Great tank, love the Angels...especially taken with Wally. I have three 2.99$ specials in my 120g, they are my favorite fish of all my tanks! Keep the updates coming, I'm going to redo my 75g using organic potting soil and will refer back to it. (I have several mineralized soil tanks, but with 3 feet of snow outside, the 75g will be cycled and free of green water before I could dry a new batch of soil :hihi.


----------



## Morainy

Wkndracer, thank you for helping me find the info about low tech tanks, and for posting a link to your thread. I have read the whole thing and am fascinated and impressed by the way you were able to turn a space into your kitchen into an underwater garden in a very short time. 

Your tank looks great. How do you ever get anything done? Don't you just find yourself sitting around with a cup of coffee staring at your tank?


----------



## wkndracer

Morainy said:


> Your tank looks great. How do you ever get anything done? Don't you just find yourself sitting around with a cup of coffee staring at your tank?


Thanks for the complements on the tank from you and londonloco. 
I do very much enjoy this hobby. 
Morainy, your comment on the tank made me just laugh as this tank is on the opposite wall in the kitchen and I don't know which to watch in the morning LOL
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/tank-journals-photo-album/90878-110g-w-30g-sump-56k-warning.html


----------



## fastfreddie

This is really cool! I like it a lot! I have a feeling this is going to end up being more than just a grow out tank!


----------



## wkndracer

*Overdue update*

When things were starting and new it was so easy to post. The tank has settled in and it's being enjoyed.
Keepers from three spawns are in here totaling 49 angels currently. A dozen given away and the clean up crew has been changed. Pair of albino corries, four otto's, and the fox remain.
The upside down cats got huge and went to my son's scout master for his tank along with four angels.
Water changes are out to three months or more and just trimming plants and feeding fish. Nobody wanted to sit still but here's the pics.









Rotten lighting but shows the out of tank growth.









My absolute favorite out of the group. Turquoise green in his back and fins that I hope remains as he grows. 









This smoky is running second.


















Hopefully with practice I'll remember how to take a better tank shot LOL.


----------



## Trallen44

Very cool!!! I like how the tank has come together, and the fish look awesome!!


----------



## wkndracer

Well I'm trying it again. MTS were added early on but I think the substrate gassed them out. Tanks aged for over 11 months so I'm trying again. Received a great starter group from ezcry4t3d









Pic taken today


----------



## wkndracer

*Overdue update*

Well,,, yeah it's been awhile but the excuse is that life gets busy and while I've been active on the forum I've ignored the journals. 
Tanks still up and basically unchanged except for the growth rate. The terrestrial plants and floaters were removed about six months ago. Crypt growth has thinned and slowed down a bit. Algae is still nearly non existent. The last WC beyond top offs or a volume over 10g was 6/6/10 when I did a 30gWC and huge plant trim opening up some swimming room in the tank.

Please ignore the plywood blocking the lights above the tank:icon_roll









The water sprite has become a real tower of tiered layers the way it grows against the back glass. I've cut it back when the canopy shades too much twice. This is the third time it's reached the surface growing like this.










The sponge equipped power head is now completely obscured by the java fern growing attached to the sponge. When flow is noticed to be low the tough little plant holds on tight while I rinse the sponge with a spray nozzle and hose. (I'm on well water)










The green mat of algae topping the spraybar is the only 'algae issue' to date :smile: Not real happy with how the Krylon fusion stuck to the pvc though :icon_roll

I miss my friend Trallen44 (Tim







)


----------



## mkiiisupradude

just read this whole thread, very cool. gives me hope I wont be doing as much work as I thought I would having a planted tank! Looks great too!


----------



## wkndracer

Cheapest tank setup in my home and the easiest to maintain :smile: hope you try this method.


----------



## sewingalot

Now that you have me interested in your tank, how is it doing? Oh, and what dog gets an eye level view?


----------



## harvzc

any update? do you have co2?


----------



## wkndracer

harvzc said:


> any update? do you have co2?


Needing to gets some tank shots taken and posted. 
Tank is still here, still easy LOL.
Negative on CO2 this one is my low tech, low budget, no maintenance tank.


----------



## wkndracer

*Weird string update*

Here you are Sara, this guy thinks angels would taste just like chicken.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HDewVm3-fc&feature=player_detailpage


----------



## OoglyBoogly

wkndracer said:


> Here you are Sara, this guy thinks angels would taste just like chicken.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HDewVm3-fc&feature=player_detailpage


haha I kept thinking your dog was going to lift his leg and pee on the tank with the way he kept moving alongside it! Does he ever try to drink the water from the tank? I caught my dog doing that once. He prefers the pond water. I'm always yelling at him about that. I guess he prefers it over the water in his bowl... must have more flavor or something :biggrin:


----------



## sewingalot

Hahahahahaha! I wonder what he would do if he actually caught one. Too cute. Looks like the angels are so used to it, they are just as interested in the end there. Thanks for sharing!


----------



## wkndracer

I didn't block the suspended lights for this shot but did a trim a couple of day's ago. Like a Timex it's still ticking.:tongue:


----------



## nonconductive

very nice low tech setup!


----------



## SleepyOwl

Very nice!


----------



## Kibblemania1414

dude, on the first page! i have that pocket knife!!! lol


----------



## wkndracer

*update*

Well,,, don't remove the lid unless you wanna trim plants LOL.









Busy with other things I kinda fed the fish and moved to the next tank and things got overgrown.


















Trimmed today and light once again can find the bottom on the left side of the tank.


----------



## kevgsp

Really enjoyed this! 

Broke down my 65gal and put MG Organic under my flourite partly because of this thread.

Thanks


----------



## wkndracer

kevgsp said:


> Really enjoyed this!
> Broke down my 65gal and put MG Organic under my flourite partly because of this thread.
> Thanks


WOW! Reading posts like that really make taking the time to keep a journal totally worth it. THANK YOU!!!

I did get in there trimming and clean the glass after my last post.


----------



## nonconductive

Wow, you really hacked that water sprite. Love all the crypts, I think that might be the direction I'll be going.


----------



## wkndracer

Yeah I used a chainsaw LOL, but it will fill the tank again within a month.
The crypts thinned really bad due to the lack of light. That water sprite is planted right against the back wall in that skinny 55g. Tiers in layers really nice growing in though.


----------



## sewingalot

That was some amazing growth! How long did it take you to do all that cutting? I can't believe the growth you are getting in a dirt tank. It still fascinates me.


----------



## nonconductive

sewingalot said:


> That was some amazing growth! How long did it take you to do all that cutting? I can't believe the growth you are getting in a dirt tank. It still fascinates me.


 
try it! you'll be kicking yourself for wasting time on the "popular" methods.


----------



## sewingalot

Well, you motivated me to go and poke the dirt in my bucket with a stick. Does that count? I tell you, I am getting sick of the more popular methods. Too much work.


----------



## nonconductive

sewingalot said:


> Too much work.


Indeed.


----------



## redmary51

Wow, this really makes me think I did the right thing in planting my 20 gal with the Miracle Grow Organic. It was a mess at first, but after less than 48 hours, the water is clear. Just has some tannins that I didn't get soaked out prior to putting it in.

Question about water parameters. I don't test like I should. I don't even have a master test kit!. I know, everyone thinks that is awful. (Do you still think I should start my own journal?)

The filter I am using is a Fluval 104 that had been previously running on a stocked tank, so I have beneficial bacteria already. I got 2 opaline gourami's last night and put them in. I know they breathe air, so if the ammonia, which I do test for, stays at a safe level, do I need to worry about the rest?

Where do you get the egg carton grating? I have some terrestrial plants that I could put on the tank like you did. I'm sure that would help the start up as far as possible algae is concerned.

Mary


----------



## wkndracer

Hi Mary,
The grating is in the lighting section HD, Lowes any major store with a lighting department. Tell them you want egg crate and they know exactly what you're wanting. Like I posted in your thread the soil can burp and raise ammonia so I would test for it. At higher pH levels above 7.0 (neutral) it can harm fish.

"(Do you still think I should start my own journal?)"

ABSOLUTELY! If you post a journal capturing your experiences with your tank you can help others succeed. Not everyone tests water parameters (most don't). Posting your thoughts and methods as you develop your new tank would be a thread I'd read.roud:


----------



## redmary51

Ok. I suppose even if it bombs out, it will help others. Let me see if I can set up a hosting site for photos and I will start a journal before I get too far into this project.

Thanks for the HD tip. I actually thought of that and swung by one on my way to the grocery store earlier. I asked and they sent me to the lighting department.

I had already decided I would like/hope to have emergent plants but was worrying about fish jumping out. The grating looks like it will take care of both very well.

By the way, your tank is beautiful, and it surprised me how quickly it filled in.

Mary


----------



## fjf888

Yep, I would like to see how you are doing as well. I'm glad to see you're getting some good help here.

Fred


----------



## nonconductive

yes, please start a journal so we in the minority have something to read.


----------



## sewingalot

redmary51 said:


> (Do you still think I should start my own journal?)


I also want to say yes, please do!


----------



## wkndracer

redmary51 said:


> Ok. I suppose even if it bombs out, it will help others. Let me see if I can set up a hosting site for photos and I will start a journal before I get too far into this project.
> 
> Mary


Yeah! another dirt tank journal








Maybe we'll one day overwhelm the site and end up with a category section full of,,, what else,,, dirty tanks! haha! 

No way it bombs as long as you take things slow and when in doubt check Diana's book







or post in your journal and the membership will help.

If you really want some bad advice just ask me 

Photobucket is a free hosting site and pretty easy to use.


----------



## redmary51

Thanks everyone, especially Fred who got me thru a very tough time with planting my first tank.

Fred, speaking of my first tank, the brush algae has cleared up, there are a lot more plants because I moved all the ones I had in the 20 gal over to be able to set up the Walstad tank, I am fertilizing now --- do you think I still need to use the Excel regularly?



I know it's hard to see the real plants because of the background. I just don't know how to change it when it is so close to the wall.

Thanks for all your help.

Mary


----------



## wkndracer

If you have it and don't mind adding it to the tank I would continue using it on a low tech tank to help as a carbon substitute.

Minor brush algae issues can be treated with hydrogen peroxide also.


----------



## wkndracer

More people seem to be deciding on dirt tanks rather than waiting for the soil to be mineralized, or going with dosing EI, high light and CO2 lately. I think this is cool roud:.
Hopefully most are reading enough information first and thinking it through.

Two HUGE considerations doing this.
Using 'natural' soils READ the contents on your bag of dirt! I know it contains dirt,,, (duh),,, 
but NO COW POO! Small amounts of chicken poo can work but no! no! moo! moo! :smile:. 
Also remember PLZ that while natural tanks (dirt base) and seeded filters can be stocked from day one go lightly with your first stocking list. Dirt goes through changes going from dry to saturated (submerged) and the rate of break down on the organics changes too. Sometimes it can be more than the tank and fish can handle. 
For the first couple of months whether you want to or not test your water. Every couple of days and be ready to change it if the soil burps (it can happen). You might have a tank like mine that ran straight through the issues quickly and was trouble free from then on. Lots of plants (including floaters), no hard scape to trap the soil gases, control the light (a big key to dodging algae), watch things and let the tank settle (month maybe two). The capping material needs to be small enough to contain the soil yet allow the gas exchange to occur. 

That's the first trade off for not waiting for the dirt to finish the mineralization process. Attention starting out, more or less high maintenance in the beginning., Things can get busy if a bump in water parameters occurs. All the organic material and the bacteria that chew through it do give you free CO2 for a period of time. :bounce: 

The second major trade off you make is that rooted plants are there to stay. Removing plants with a good root structure is a HUGE PITA. I had an Amazon Sword that had to go. Cutting around the root ball directly under it I killed the plant taking it out and left all the root runners in place. Thinning a field of crypts means a water change and repairing the cap adding more material. Soil tanks are a set it and forget it type of tanking (imo). If you like to change things around, re-scape, swap out plants then NPT is not for you. If you want to top off the tank when the water gets low, trim to make room for the fish to swim and not dose for months it might be what your looking for.


----------



## redmary51

Thanks for the reply on the Excel, wkndracer. What kind of racing do you do?

I have been dosing everyday but the bottle says it can be done every-other-day. I'm thinking I might go to that.

By the way, this tank does not have any dirt. I just added plants to the rock-type gravel (apparently really too large for plants) I already had with my fake plants. So far, so good, except for the brush algae. Fred suggested more fast growing plants and fertilizer, in addition to the Excel, which I am doing.

If the first NPT tank does well, I may get ambitious and convert the 50 gal over. I'm thinking I will really have to be ambitious with the fish and all the plants already there. Maybe I will mineralize some soil this summer, just in case.

Mary


----------



## nonconductive

wknd that was a great little summary.


----------



## wkndracer

nonconductive said:


> wknd that was a great little summary.


THANKYOU! :icon_mrgr

I actually engaged both brain cells by complete accident on that one I think


----------



## toffee

oldpunk78 said:


> ^ i thought that worth repeating. :hihi:
> 
> i love my 50g low tech tank. it's kinda like having a tank on cruise control once it gets settled.





wkndracer said:


> Cheapest tank setup in my home and the easiest to maintain :smile: hope you try this method.





nonconductive said:


> Indeed.


 dirt rules 

It's nice to read your experience, a low tech dirt tank from someone who has high tech tank experience. Questions:

1. It seems like you only have mechanical filter? the plants and substrate are doing all the bio work?
2. How often do you change the filter elements?

Thanks


----------



## wkndracer

toffee said:


> dirt rules
> It's nice to read your experience, a low tech dirt tank from someone who has high tech tank experience. Questions:
> 
> 1. It seems like you only have mechanical filter? the plants and substrate are doing all the bio work?
> 2. How often do you change the filter elements?
> Thanks


Thanks for the comments :icon_cool, it's nice to know sharing information benefits others. The tank's power head feeds into a DIY PVC spray bar. I rinse the sponge and clean the impeller when I see reduced flow out of the bar. Also when the sponge is almost completely covered with java fern I'll move that sponge to another tank and start a new one. To date none of these sponges have broken down needing to be replaced. 
Checked the tank log, cleaned the sponge and/(or not) impeller. 8/6/10, 10/24, 11/28, 1/28/11

The power head and sponge is for water movement and is the only filter.
HTH


----------



## sewingalot

I am very happy to see that you are laying out the pros and cons of the dirt method. For someone about to endeavor into the unknown, it is nice to know that I may experience highs and lows, not just fantastic results 100% of the time. Too often, we speak about the positives of the more popular methods that planted tank owners get discouraged when things don't go as expected. I say, if you go into a project knowing what may happen, you can often plan for it, minimizing the risks. Thanks for taking the time to write that up, wkndracer. roud:


----------



## toffee

wkndracer said:


> Thanks for the comments :icon_cool, it's nice to know sharing information benefits others. The tank's power head feeds into a DIY PVC spray bar. I rinse the sponge and clean the impeller when I see reduced flow out of the bar. Also when the sponge is almost completely covered with java fern I'll move that sponge to another tank and start a new one. To date none of these sponges have broken down needing to be replaced.
> Checked the tank log, cleaned the sponge and/(or not) impeller. 8/6/10, 10/24, 11/28, 1/28/11
> 
> The power head and sponge is for water movement and is the only filter.
> HTH


Thanks for the info. I am thinking of converting a 180g to follow your tank. This 180g started as a reef tank so it has MH+VHO lighting, overflow and a 30g tank as bio filter. Guess I won't need all that (it is good thing). Just a few powerheads strategically placed and a few t5s.

Dirt rules.


----------



## wkndracer

sewingalot said:


> I am very happy to see that you are laying out the pros and cons of the dirt method. Thanks for taking the time to write that up, wkndracer. roud:


Your welcome and,, Thank you! :smile:



toffee said:


> Thanks for the info. I am thinking of converting a 180g to follow your tank. This 180g started as a reef tank so it has MH+VHO lighting, overflow and a 30g tank as bio filter. Guess I won't need all that (it is good thing). Just a few powerheads strategically placed and a few t5s.
> 
> Dirt rules.


I did keep a sump running on another dirt tank. May work great on larger tanks too but the PH method I'm using on 55/75g tanks. I'll be following your string too LOL. roud:


----------



## toffee

Hey wkndracer, I think I will follow your 55g with dirt + mechanical filtration for this 180g. Less is more, I can always add bio filter if needed.

Since very infrequent water change is one of the goals, do I need to worry about detritus? It will be stocked with most angels and lots of smaller tetras.


----------



## wkndracer

I keep Otto's in all my tanks and at least 4 of some type of Cory. With crypts or dwarf sag, chain swords etc. any litter on the bottom I really can't say I notice much.


----------



## toffee

wkndracer said:


> I keep Otto's in all my tanks and at least 4 of some type of Cory. With crypts or dwarf sag, chain swords etc. any litter on the bottom I really can't say I notice much.


I am trying to avoid litters like this tank. It's really nice except all the stuff floating around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRo3AfE7SPY


----------



## wkndracer

checked out your vid, very nice! 
haven't had that type of problem here to date.


----------



## toffee

My tap is really hard, some call it liquid concrete. Do you think dirt+low light with no CO2 will work with very hard water?


----------



## wkndracer

Your simply replacing water column fert dosing with substrate support for the plants so I don't see a reason it wouldn't.


----------



## toffee

wkndracer said:


> Your simply replacing water column fert dosing with substrate support for the plants so I don't see a reason it wouldn't.


That's true, should I be worried about plants that get their nutrients mainly from water column like some stem plants or java moss. Wondering if they will thrive with hard water, dirt substrate, no fert and low light.

But I must say your water sprite is fantastic, may be water sprite can adapt.


----------



## jsuereth

As an experiment, i havent dosed my java fern or anubias (whole tank really) in months. Things are very vibrant and lush (minor amounts of pearling even). Even my dhg is growing, although thats pulling ferts from substrate.

Your plants should be able to pull nitrates/ammonium directly from the fish waste or bacterial decay. 

Id try no ferts out and just dose if you dont see any new growth.

Note: my tank is not soil, just sand+flourite. Not sure if the flourite is leaking excess nutrients.


----------



## wkndracer

toffee said:


> should I be worried about plants that get their nutrients mainly from water column like some stem plants or java moss.
> But I must say your water sprite is fantastic, may be water sprite can adapt.


Missed this Q just as I miss the tank some days sorry. Water sprite is cool in that it works as a floater or rooted the one in my tank is well rooted. Yet all the daughter plants from it once the tanks floaters were removed replaced them and just fill the tank.

The only plants to give me trouble were some stems and chain swords. Java and what not did fine in the water column and I grew a ton of floaters for over a year.



jsuereth said:


> As an experiment, i havent dosed. Note: my tank is not soil, just sand+flourite. Not sure if the flourite is leaking excess nutrients.


Flourite may be releasing nutrients back to the water column as things lean out in your system because the cation exchange try's to reach balance with all the electrons being happy but it never happens LOL. Once the excess stored in the plants and sub are gone the plants will feed on they're own older leaves and algae seems to always follow.


----------



## lauraleellbp

wkndracer said:


> Flourite may be releasing nutrients back to the water column as things lean out in your system because the cation exchange try's to reach balance with all the electrons being happy but it never happens LOL. Once the excess stored in the plants and sub are gone the plants will feed on they're own older leaves and algae seems to always follow.


Have you ever read anything that says for sure that this can happen with Flourite? I'm not saying it will or will not, just that my understanding is that the reason Flourite grabs onto nutrients is mostly due to its shape- so more a mechanical than chemical attraction, so though Flourite does have a saturation point at which it won't/can't grab onto more, there really wouldn't be any sort of "leeching" effect back into the water column unless the Flourite was actually physically disturbed.

I am NOT confident that is in fact how it works, but that is my current understanding?


----------



## jsuereth

If you overdose root tabs in flourite, it will leach. I had my nitrate skyrocket in from 10-80 in a few days time. this continued every water change until someone suggested the ferts may be leaking. I out in some cabomba and e. Augustofolia cuttings i had handy. These took off andthe tank is stable again. However, now i have a tank of cabomba and e. Augustofolia, while my marsilea carpet is getting starved....

You win some, you loose some.


----------



## wkndracer

lauraleellbp said:


> Have you ever read anything that says for sure that this can happen with Flourite? I'm not saying it will or will not, just that my understanding is that the reason Flourite grabs onto nutrients is mostly due to its shape- so more a mechanical than chemical attraction, so though Flourite does have a saturation point at which it won't/can't grab onto more, there really wouldn't be any sort of "leeching" effect back into the water column unless the Flourite was actually physically disturbed.
> 
> I am NOT confident that is in fact how it works, but that is my current understanding?



What is CEC would be a good question then. (Cation Exchange Capacity) 

The chemical content of the water is reduced by binding in the uptake of the plants.

How does cation exchange take place within the resin bed of a salt regen water conditioner?

Why does limestone dissolve in soft water raising the KH? Why does that rise stop at a certain level and stabilize? 
If you remove this hardened water and replace it with distilled or RO the process will repeat itself. The KH will rise and return to the same reading of the week before.

Equilibrium and saturation points 

Walstad's book touches on it, I have the lab training materials from the water lab at work and a CEC related paper or two from the web, USF.

I'm a welder, mechanic, electrican, painter, carpenter but not chemist. I found my answers reading and learned enough to be dangerous LOL
(but I can grow water weeds and breed fish)


----------



## Tesora

Do you think this would be good for someone with zero experience keeping aquariums? I'm really interested in giving this a try because I need something that's really simple starting out. I'm a little intimidated by the EI method, but I'm sure I could get the hang of it. I just don't want to do 50% water changes that often because I'm a little lazy lol. I read that you can cut back on the fertilizers you add slowly, and then do less % of water changes though. So, I'm not sure what to do. Anyway, I have a 26 gallon bow front, so I guess I'll have to skip the egg crate part of it? I also have one small piece of driftwood with a rock attached.. do you think it would be alright to add it somehow, or will the gasses build up and cause a problem?

I'm editing because I realized I can use the egg crate, it would just go across and wouldn't have to bow with the tank. I feel a little like an idiot now lol.


----------



## wkndracer

*Do you think this would be good for someone with zero experience keeping aquariums?*

Yes  based on the condition you understand the limits. 
I don't think there is a 'perfect method' for everyone. 
Be it EI or NPT remember light drives the bus :icon_cool but for cost, ease of upkeep and growth results dirt has balance (little pun but true) and is the cheapest way to play.

Lowest cost setting up, minimum water changes once established, no *required attention* or dosing just feed the fish. 
I believe enough folks have journals right here on TPT to create a guide of sorts both good and bad on what they have seen happen setting up these simple systems.


----------



## sewingalot

wkndracer said:


> I don't think there is a 'perfect method' for everyone.


This should be the motto of planted tanks. Determine what you want out of a tank and go from there. You can have an amazing tank with minimal work.


----------



## phorty

Great thread. I'm considering doing the Organic MG thing with my 20 long. I'm trying to figure out what cory friendly substrate to cap the MG with.....


----------



## nonconductive

phorty said:


> great thread. I'm considering doing the organic mg thing with my 20 long. I'm trying to figure out what cory friendly substrate to cap the mg with.....


pfs


----------



## wkndracer

phorty said:


> Great thread. I'm considering doing the Organic MG thing with my 20 long. I'm trying to figure out what cory friendly substrate to cap the MG with.....


Glad you liked the thread :smile:
Regarding my capping opinion, that choice can depend on the type of Cory. Pandas can have trouble with sharp edged substrate like the smashed brick of Flourite original eroding the barbels. Some claim water quality effects this more than the substrate but IDK.

C. paleatus or albino spp. don't seem to be bothered by Flourite as I have had several over 2yrs old without issue. 

Sand is a safe bet and Eco Complete even though I'm not as fond of it is OK too.

This vendor has a huge list of choices available.
http://www.substratesource.com/index.php?p=home

HTH


----------



## wkndracer

*Ugly Ugly*

Cooked plants and the mess they make. YIKES!

Time will tell if it's all a complete waste.
The Anubias I purchased was badly burnt in shipping and with my work schedule at the time I just looked for a tank to 'store' it in until time allowed me to deal with it.
Thinking this is a learning curve.

























Purchased three huge shrimp tagged as 'whisker shrimp' at the LFS almost 2" long!

























80%WC and reset.  FTS

















better days are just around the corner


----------



## extrame

hi wkndracer, 
really like how you set up your tank. im also starting up a dirt tank after reading your thread. i think this the most suitable tank for me cos i'd like a tank that is low maintenance and that i dont have to dose ferts every so often.
what kind of crpyts are you using in the tank? and do you also have dwarf sag in the foreground too?


----------



## nonconductive

awww mike, thats ashame about those anubias. the rhizomes still look ok in that pic. have they turned to mush yet?


----------



## sewingalot

That sucks, Mike! If I had anubias, I'd send you them all just to make you happy. But, I personally don't have them or crypts as they in general just make fun of me and don't grow.


----------



## wkndracer

nonconductive said:


> shame about those anubias. the rhizomes still look ok in that pic. have they turned to mush yet?


sadly it's starting to but the very end of two stems are pushing one leaf each



sewingalot said:


> If I had anubias, I'd send you them all just to make you happy. But, I personally don't have them or crypts as they in general just make fun of me and don't grow.


hahaha thank you but I'm still happy 

got plenty to do here and it's only water weeds.


----------



## nonconductive

if you can keep a tiny little bit of the rhizome from becoming mush, in a year you'll have nice big plants again.


----------



## sewingalot

A year? You just reminded me why I don't like to have anubias personally. Thank you for contributing to my longings from a far on plants/fish I won't own but admire greatly.


----------



## wkndracer

sewingalot said:


> A year? You just reminded me why I don't like to have anubias personally.


I am lusting after a tank looking like D's with a twist, but not thrilled about the growth rate and challenges algae poses with this slow grower.

The tank being full of these naked stems staring at me for a year isn't so joyful a thought either. Waiting for signs of life or a pile of melted mush so I can move on,,, I'm not sure which I look forward too.


----------



## wkndracer

*Yippie! (I guess)*



nonconductive said:


> if you can keep a tiny little bit of the rhizome from becoming mush, in a year you'll have nice big plants again.


Yippie! (I guess) Four original damaged leaves and a couple of sprouts.
No mushy rhizome except for a small amount on the end of two. So this will be the look for a year? Stumped the water sprite for the first time ever to allow maximum light into the tank. Moving a bunch of fish around too now that I'm caught up with the maintenance on all the tanks finally.

ugly pics

















If somebody throws another $1.00 a gallon sale I may use this as an excuse for a plant rehab tank.:icon_roll,,, :hihi: Picked up another CO2 rig here (thanx Justin) awhile back. Maybe set it up on the porch and see how fast it would rehab on the gas.

(Yet to brace the wife on this topic yet) 
Did suggest selling the piano so I could put a 225/250 or some such in the living room :icon_eek: 

didn't even get a haha on that one.


----------



## nonconductive

well ill give you a haha, because i know what my wife would say. lol (keep dreaming).

id cut the mushy parts off along with any brown/yucky roots. they shouldnt look so scraggly for that long maybe a few months? the ones in direct light put out a leaf every other week in my 125, if i keep up on the column ferts.

good luck on the 225! maybe if you wine and dine her you can win her over. 
we might be moving in the near future, i want a basement. I told my wife that im getting an 8 - 12' tank and setting up a fish room (yea im dreaming) when we do, and she didnt say much because it will all be in the basement :biggrin: (along with the cat boxes :icon_frow)





wkndracer said:


> Yippie! (I guess) Four original damaged leaves and a couple of sprouts.
> No mushy rhizome except for a small amount on the end of two. So this will be the look for a year? Stumped the water sprite for the first time ever to allow maximum light into the tank. Moving a bunch of fish around too now that I'm caught up with the maintenance on all the tanks finally.
> 
> ugly pics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If somebody throws another $1.00 a gallon sale I may use this as an excuse for a plant rehab tank.:icon_roll,,, :hihi: Picked up another CO2 rig here (thanx Justin) awhile back. Maybe set it up on the porch and see how fast it would rehab on the gas.
> 
> (Yet to brace the wife on this topic yet)
> Did suggest selling the piano so I could put a 225/250 or some such in the living room :icon_eek:
> 
> didn't even get a haha on that one.


----------



## wkndracer

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll do more trimming when I'm in that tank again.

I figure as long as my bedding doesn't end up in a room with only aquariums and cat boxes I'm doing OK


----------



## sewingalot

Hahaha, cat boxes and aquariums. Sounds lovely. Thinking of moving, non-c? Figures just after you finished painting. 

Ummmm, I think you have a new look started there, Mikey. Naked anubias. Now that I know I could grow!


----------



## wkndracer

Yup! Naked anubias YUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
but other threads will grow as it was a busy day LOL


----------



## sewingalot

I think you could start a trend. Call it anubias sp 'nakeditis' I bet you could charge $80 a pop. :hihi:


----------



## nonconductive

i read that nakeditis wrong at first. totally inappropriate. lol

we just started looking.


----------



## sewingalot

Well how does anubias sp 'sanleaves' float your boat, then? Better without the inappropriate thoughts? I just though of something. I could send Mike the leaves you sent me and he could glue them on for prosperity.


----------



## phorty

Hey WkndRcr, maybe you can advise me since you have experience with young angels. I just got my hands on 8 between pea and dime sized zebra angels yesterday. I have them in a 20 gallon high where I have some very young catfish also growing out. For filtration, I'm using a Aqua Clear 70 that has a dense pre-filter sponge that slows down flow quite a bit. However, I'm worried that there still might be too much current for them. I don't ever usually worry about that but these guys are smaller angels than I've ever raised before.


----------



## nonconductive

sewingalot said:


> I could send Mike the leaves you sent me and he could glue them on for prosperity.


 
hahaha i dont think he'd want the bba.


----------



## wkndracer

phorty said:


> Hey WkndRcr, maybe you can advise me since you have experience with young angels. I just got my hands on 8 between pea and dime sized zebra angels yesterday. I have them in a 20 gallon high where I have some very young catfish also growing out. For filtration, I'm using a Aqua Clear 70 that has a dense pre-filter sponge that slows down flow quite a bit. However, I'm worried that there still might be too much current for them. I don't ever usually worry about that but these guys are smaller angels than I've ever raised before.


Really sorry for the delay in my response. Your little ones will be fine. Usless they can't find a resting spot to sleep overall current is a good thing (imo). 

Ratty plants still look ratty and I intend to try the suggested nicking technique to promote growth this weekend.


----------



## wkndracer

Still full of leafless sticks but the angels don't seem to mind and are growing into pretty fish among ugly plants LOL.










The melted anubias aren't long for the tank because when I get tired of looking at it this way I'm replanting the center background and its gone.


----------



## sewingalot

Poor Mike with his ratty anubias. The offer of BBA leaves still stands. :hihi:


----------



## Leah

I just read through the whole thread and have a question. I did read rather quickly so please forgive me if I missed this!

If one does get a some dirt up on top of the capping material from removing plants , is it just as aesthetic matter, or will it cause real problems? If it matters, assume that this is after the long "break in" period.

Thanks,
Leah


----------



## wkndracer

Hi Leah glad you checked out the thread.
Just messy. When my substrate burped up a chunk of dirt or even now when moving things around if I break through the cap, which I've done a couple times (save some extra cap material in a bag when setting up a tank) just use a siphon to clean off the cap just as you would in any tank. The soil is contained by the capping material but there is nothing bad in it. What ever is in the tank above or below the substrate is already in the water column. Stirring things up worse case I'm aware of would cause an algae bloom just like a gravel tank.


----------



## Leah

Thank you! Another question: reading around on the various related threads, it looks like 1" of soil (somewhere I saw something along the lines of "make sure it will be 1 inch after wet and compacted") and 1" of capping seems pretty consistent. Do I have that right?

Leah


----------



## wkndracer

*I like 2.5" for a sub*

No not right LOL Once the organics break down you end up with a very shallow root medium with those numbers. The soil collapses more than I would have believed once the bacteria finishes breaking things down. I'd rather recommend going with 1 1/2 to 2" maximum soil depth starting the tank. Adding more than 2" can cause problems so I range it from 1.5 to 2" getting as much material in as I feel comfortable with. Seems in my experience to work very well. With the soil going in dry placing the palm of your hand flat on the material apply firm (not all you're weight LOL) pressure on the soil compressing it and the layer should be about 1.5 to 2" thick. Then add your capping material. 

Capping my preference is 1" whether it's Flourite original or Black Beauty blasting grit. My thoughts on the cap is that it needs to be thick enough starting out to have weight, holding down the dirt but be thin enough not to prevent the gas exchange. Later once the soil collapses cap material can be added in little steps, a cup or two at a time if needed or when breaches occur to thicken the cap. Learned on my very first dirt tank not to use up all my materials starting out. The tank will require touch up from time to time. About a 1/2 bag of Flourite or like material is what I save for later use.

2.5 to 3" seems to work very well for me so that is my target depth setting a substrate. Adding root tabs or going with soil the rooted plants seem to do well at this depth. 

Another option I've used and will continue to do on new tanks is add MTS supplements into the base. Dusting the glass with the chemicals first, a thin layer of sand 3/8 - 1/2" just a barrier layer, then add the soil and cap. Doing this made it easier to hit my target thickness and it may add to the life span of the system. The tank I did the layers in was one of the easiest I've ever setup. Never even tested ammonia or nitrites so it skipped the whole cycle thing. 

Dirt has been used for MANY years and was only replaced by 'extra' money and a' need it now' mentality. haha it still provides great results with the least funds and effort involved of any tanking method I'm aware of.

Tips??; Avoid large hard scape or anything with a big footprint that can trap gasses, plant the entire tank right off. The more plants the better. Control the light exposure and control algae issues, floaters help in a huge way on new systems. It's in my threads but I hold off on stocking the bottom group until the soil settles into it's submerged decay, 2nd stage if you wish to call it that. Once the tank has quit burping, or at least slowed down if gas has been an issue. After the first big plant trim is when the guys on the bottom floor go in my dirt tanks. 

If you don't mind the 'tea water' of tannins starting out going NPT is the bomb (imo) :smile: 

as always HTH


----------



## wkndracer

*The timex tank, just add dirt*

Overdue update on the timex tank.
The ratty anubias has converted into ratty anubias sticks with 1-3 little leaves so at least the tank looks better.

Today I pointed the camera at it again. 




























Soon to be full of black babies and used again as a grow out tank if I don't sell them all as pre-dime peas on the cheap.

Heck might be full anyway with the zebra's figuring it out and the marble pair spawning for the first time today.


----------



## nonconductive

ive always like how lush the crypts look in this tank. hey wasnt this the tank with the water sprite bush?


----------



## wkndracer

Yup this is that tank. Something else the ratty anubias changed.

Well that's not entirely true LOL. I did yank the old plant making room for the ratty stems but the tank has changed. Now >2yrs. wet the CO2 supplied by the bacteria in the substrate is almost completely gone. Things have slowed down, in the beginning I needed to maintain at least 40% floater coverage or algae presented itself enough to bother me. I can now run this tank floater free. But it's not a bad thing as it's easier to maintain too at the slower growth rate. This was after all a simple dirt tank without dosing of any kind,,, still is other than a splash walking by if I feel like it. 

I did plant another water sprite off center left in the tank where the other one was. It's about 3 branches and 6" tall right now.


----------



## nonconductive

thats funny you say that. on my oldest dirt tank i noticed sometime between 1 1/2 - 2 years the growth explosion completely stopped, there was some die off , but after a brief period things started filling back in, growing slow and steady.

on my 125 it happened a little after a year.


----------



## wkndracer

nonconductive said:


> thats funny you say that. on my oldest dirt tank i noticed sometime between 1 1/2 - 2 years the growth explosion completely stopped, there was some die off , but after a brief period things started filling back in, growing slow and steady.
> 
> on my 125 it happened a little after a year.


The added CO2 and higher light speed things up on this happening you think?

fyi I'm otta your threads until you and YKW stop the mental twistedness.
(yuck LOL)


----------



## nonconductive

lol. yea its getting a little grimey, but some pics should clean i up!


i think i was pushing it too hard. it took me forever to figure out how high to hang the light. up and down up and down up and down. i like the way they run after the lull, things grow slow, but its steady.


----------



## BoxxerBoyDrew

AWESOME READ Racer!!!

I will prob setup the 40B tank I just got as a DIRT TANK! I get tired of the constant looking after of the high tech 55g! Though I LOVE the fast growth and the bright pinks and reds I have been getting since I did the Blackout! 

Thanks for the AWESOME INFO You posted in this thread! It will help us NEW-Bs out, A LOT!!!

Take Care!
Drew


----------



## sewingalot

That second picture down is fantastic, and agree with D's thread. What happened in my absence? People on your team loose brain cells, D?


----------



## wkndracer

sewingalot said:


> What happened in my absence? People on your team loose brain cells, D?


Bwahahaha I'm not a 'team' player LOL


thanks Drew, this one is my 'how to' dirt thread I think because the stainless dirt tank is boring

it just sits in the rack and grows plants :smile: but adding the bump in ferts it will be interesting over time to see how it holds up.


----------



## sewingalot

Going from little ferts in the water column to dosing, are you worried about an algae outbreak? Curious as to your thoughts on the subject.


----------



## wkndracer

sewingalot said:


> Going from little ferts in the water column to dosing, are you worried about an algae outbreak? Curious as to your thoughts on the subject.


my trace soup is being added to the water but I was referring to adding the layers setting up the substrate in the SS rack tank


----------



## sewingalot

Ah, looks like I am an idiot and not reading well. Forgive me. I'm a little rusty. Do you use CSM+B or another micro fertilizer?


----------



## driftwoodhunter

The only filtration is a power head feeding an eheim spray bar to break up the flow with an old sponge on the intake. 

I'm still wrapping my head around this. What size tank is this again? I'm wondering if this is an alternative to the HOBs I use on my tanks. Maybe something to try on the next ones...(when I find some room)


----------



## wkndracer

sewingalot said:


> Ah, looks like I am an idiot and not reading well. Forgive me. I'm a little rusty. Do you use CSM+B or another micro fertilizer?


CSM+B/Fe kicker the recipe is in two threads at least.


driftwoodhunter said:


> The only filtration is a power head feeding an eheim spray bar to break up the flow with an old sponge on the intake.
> 
> I'm still wrapping my head around this. What size tank is this again? I'm wondering if this is an alternative to the HOBs I use on my tanks. Maybe something to try on the next ones...(when I find some room)


I have 4 - 55g tanks set this way. Both the tanks in the stainless stand are sponged power heads only and fully stocked and the Black Rack too.
Only 5w power consumption and rinse the sponge about every two weeks or once a month seems to work.


----------



## sewingalot

Mike, I love the fact you are going to make me work for my prize. :hihi: I found it, lol. What is funny is I've asked this before and you answered me. I am needing to put my brain back on my head on how to search. By the way, on the power heads, do you rinse them in tank water or under the sink?


----------



## wkndracer

Being we have well water I use a hose and spray nozzle to blast the crap out of them literally unless it's the ones covered in Java to hide it all then I'm a little careful with the hose.

Edit; and I can't do it under the sink or the cabinets get wet silly


----------



## sewingalot

Okay, smarty pants. You should be used to our saying's as you are half WVian yourself, mister. Under the sink means in the sink, under the faucet not in the drawers. LOL.


----------



## nonconductive

sewingalot said:


> Okay, smarty pants. You should be used to our saying's as you are half WVian yourself, mister. Under the sink means in the sink, under the faucet not in the drawers. LOL.


 
huh? LOL


----------



## wkndracer

sewingalot said:


> Okay, smarty pants. You should be used to our saying's as you are half WVian yourself, mister. Under the sink means in the sink, under the faucet not in the drawers. LOL.


leave your drawers outta my thread!


----------



## driftwoodhunter

LOL - loving this, living 20 minutes from the WVa border...


----------



## wkndracer

huh? might be related!


----------



## sewingalot

I swear, Mike. I've heard you talk in person. You have an accent, too. Just southern and not as cute as mine and my sayin's are finer than frog hair. 

Is Dover still eating in front of his personal aquarium? Has Annie joined in the dining with a view?


----------



## Alyssa

wkndracer said:


> Used egg crate grill material to eliminate gravel creep along the glass


What is "gravel creep"?


----------



## madness

Alyssa said:


> What is "gravel creep"?


Eventually the gravel sort of moves or settles and then you can see the soil underneath near the glass of the tank.

What he is demonstrating is a method to make sure that only the top layer is visible when looking into the aquarium.


----------



## wkndracer

still here, flooded 4/30/2009 still growing plants.
No changes made, no daily or even weekly ferts ticktock ticktock


----------



## driftwoodhunter

lol - look at that, we've got you updating everything! : )


----------



## wkndracer

hahaha not everything but I'm working on it


----------



## AnniePN

Where do you get egg crate grill?


----------



## wkndracer

AnniePN said:


> Where do you get egg crate grill?


In the lighting section of home improvement stores. It's sold as a light diffuser mostly used for florescent lighting.


----------



## allaboutfish

wow! i really wish i wouldve put dirt under my 55


----------



## AnniePN

Thank you  I'm in the process of setting up a 55g planted..and will be using miracle gro organic. I'll shop for some egg crate grill at HD....still trying to decide what to cap with.


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## wkndracer

Round pebbles are not something I care to use as the soil seems to find a way though river gravel and it doesn't plant well for me. Flourite original works very well based on weight, size of the frag and the high CEC. But it costs a lot more than sand and sand works just fine. 

Many options for the capping material depending on your budget. Check the threads of the fraternity members and you'll find many options. 

Thanks for the posts.


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## chad320

Wow! Long time no see!!! The tank is looking super nice! I really need to catch up on your threads Mike!


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## Leaky Filter

Great thread! I'm originally from Polk County. You live in a fantastic part of the world. There are few things in Florida that I truly miss. Scallop season is one of them.

Anyway, I've read a little about the buffering capacity associated with dirt tanks. My ph out of the tap is 7.4-7.6 (not sure about hardness). I would assume that potting mix is going to provide enough buffer to bring the ph and hardness down a few points. What has you experience been with this? After living with central Florida's 8.3-8.4 out of the tap, this sounds like a piece of cake. I have no qualms with water changes, gentle vacuuming, etc. I can do that in an hour after work. I start getting squirrely when I have to start mixing water.

Thanks for the help. This thread is fantastic.


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## wkndracer

Hey there Leaky!
My water parameters are unaffected by the soil to my knowledge.
Setting up my tanks (this one) and subsequent dirt tanks I have avoided any additions that would leach effecting water quality (oyster shells, limestone etc.)
Whether my water change is done after a week or three months I haven't seen GH/KH shift more then 15-20ppm.
So answering the question regarding buffers if you don't add them or peat to reduce hardness/buffer I don't see any shift. Bacterial activity breaking down organics in the soil will shift pH but that's temporary.

this help? or confuse it further LOL


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## Leaky Filter

Thanks for the response. What you're saying makes sense. If anything, the effects of peat and decaying organics in the water will do nothing but help. The fish I'm planning on keeping like softer water.


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## cableguy69846

Not bad sensei Mike. Tank looks good.


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## nonconductive

wax on wax off


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## Daximus

This tank was the inspiration for my 90. Love it! Plant it and leave it alone pretty much. My angles love mine! :hihi:


On a side note, to those with Ph questions...don't worry about it and don't try change _it in my opinion_. Unless you are buying wild fish...from the wild...most of our domestically breeded fish are already used to our crappy water. You will get yourself into more trouble constantly chasing and adjusting to find the "perfect Ph," ask me how I know. Fish would rather live in crappy consistent Ph than live in constantly changing (big swings) Ph.


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## Leaky Filter

Daximus said:


> This tank was the inspiration for my 90. Love it! Plant it and leave it alone pretty much. My angles love mine! :hihi:
> 
> 
> On a side note, to those with Ph questions...don't worry about it and don't try change _it in my opinion_. Unless you are buying wild fish...from the wild...most of our domestically breeded fish are already used to our crappy water. You will get yourself into more trouble constantly chasing and adjusting to find the "perfect Ph," ask me how I know. Fish would rather live in crappy consistent Ph than live in constantly changing (big swings) Ph.


Believe me, the last thing I want to do is get back into aquariums and immediately start trying to artificially alter my existing water parameters. Coming from an area where water out of the tap was in the mid 8's, 7.4 out of the tap is near Amazonian!


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## Daximus

Leaky Filter said:


> Believe me, the last thing I want to do is get back into aquariums and immediately start trying to artificially alter my existing water parameters. Coming from an area where water out of the tap was in the mid 8's, 7.4 out of the tap is near Amazonian!


Lol, yea...I tried to lower mine for some discus I accidentally acquired, you know to "help them out". All I ended up doing was making it a nightmare to introduce new fish (cause they are all used to the high Ph water we have), spent money, and stressed myself out trying to keep up with that stuff. From now on, the tanks gets a teaspoon of "discus buffer" with every 50% water change and that's it, let the Ph chips fall where they may.


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## wkndracer

pH? who cares?

Most of the time I skip this topic on the general forum posting maybe 1/10 but heck it's my thread LOL.

Rapid shifts (swings) in GH, KH, TDS, osmotic pressure that's the yada yada that causes our critters issues not pH changes per say. Tested pH is a product of carbonate buffers and CO2 content in the water for the larger part in this conversation. Acidic or alkaline yes but testing pH as it relates to tank water what are we looking at and why? Mg and calcium levels don't even factor at all in a pH reading but sure as hell change the TDS and osmotic pressure.
I can easily get a tested result of 7.4pH in both 4dGH and 14dGH water. Flip a fish outta the net from one to the other either way and you just hit the critter in the face with a 2x4. Better to base conversations like this one in values of GH, KH, TDS and forget pH. 

This draws fire every time I post it but consistent results are hard to argue with (imo). 
My well provides 11dKH (196.9ppm) and 10dGH (179ppm) water out of the ground (lab tested 3yrs ago).

I choose to keep angelfish, always have actually. Hard water (too much calcium) and the egg shells are too thick and most aren't viable. I also had a higher mortality rate in adult fish. I had my water tested because of the problems listed.

I reconstitute RO for all my tanks to the range of 4-6dGH and 2dKH using GH booster and baking soda. Didn't do this before but I do it now and have for over 2yrs. Spawns are a constant occurrence and with large hatch rates. NPT or high tech I do them all the same. 

As long as the temperature is matched I routinely swap fish between injected tanks with 5.9/6.2pH and 7.4/7.6pH low techs. 
Temps the same, the TDS is very close and fish don't care.

is what it is.


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## sjforward3

cool tank, I wish you luck friend.


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## Steve N

What do you do when water gets on the floor around the tank and seeps under your tank stand? Is there access to mop/ventilate the floor below?

Just saying, because I have nice hardwood and decided I would only ever use iron stands for this concern.

BTW, I've got one "natural aquarium", am setting up my second, and really appreciate this thread!


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## xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx

That's it, I'm going to dirt out my new 40 gallon because of this post lol. Seeing how great your plants are thriving makes me want to try a dirted tank again. Thanks for the inspiration >_<


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## Daximus

xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx said:


> That's it, I'm going to dirt out my new 40 gallon because of this post lol. Seeing how great your plants are thriving makes me want to try a dirted tank again. Thanks for the inspiration >_<



This is the thread that got me into dirt...I couldn't be happier.


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## wkndracer

The Timex tank is still ticking in 2012
Thanks for all the kind words on the thread. :smile:


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## Leaky Filter

Daximus said:


> Lol, yea...I tried to lower mine for some discus I accidentally acquired, you know to "help them out". All I ended up doing was making it a nightmare to introduce new fish (cause they are all used to the high Ph water we have), spent money, and stressed myself out trying to keep up with that stuff. From now on, the tanks gets a teaspoon of "discus buffer" with every 50% water change and that's it, let the Ph chips fall where they may.


 
As a follow-up, my ph was 7.4 out of the hole and after ten days in a newly dirted tank with two new pieces of driftwood, the ph was 6.5. I experienced a lot of leaching, but I expected that to happen. 

To date, I have not experienced much gassing or any undesirable smells. I did need to add a little more gravel to cap the soil, so I did a 90% water change. I was pleasantly surprised to find the pleasant "established aquarium" smell coming from the substrate that usually doesn't come for several months in a standard gravel tank.

Now all I need is another pay period to load her up with plants!


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## belo

wkndracer said:


> This is cool to me. The emerged stem opened a blossom today.



is it Bacopa monniera or some other variety???


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## wkndracer

Hi Belo,
Bacopa caroliniana
http://plants.ifas.ufl.edu/node/60

























http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/tank-journals/148380-haha-more-tanks-4-dirt-tanks-5.html


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## frrok

wkndracer said:


> Hi Belo,
> Bacopa caroliniana
> http://plants.ifas.ufl.edu/node/60
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/tank-journals/148380-haha-more-tanks-4-dirt-tanks-5.html


Wow! Cool.. When I had my 3.5, I had some of this bacopa growing emersed but it never flowered. How long does it usually take?


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## wkndracer

Mine flowers going emerged every time.
Stems being exposed maybe a month?? 
Honestly didn't pay attention to the calendar on the bloom production.
haha!, now that I've been asked I'll have to log it and find out after trimming a tank.


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## frrok

wkndracer said:


> Mine flowers going emerged every time.
> Stems being exposed maybe a month??
> Honestly didn't pay attention to the calendar on the bloom production.
> haha!, now that I've been asked I'll have to log it and find out after trimming a tank.


Ha! Well that's cool. I have some in my new setup. I think I might have to try growing it out again.


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## belo

you are lucky that you have such a good purple color in bacopa and its flowering.
usually they don't flower that easily.

I think its because they need to have pollen from a male plant ...(I could be wrong)

Thanks for the name anyway


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## oyeabog

Hello Wkndracer ,Do you have any updated pics ?Just started my dirt tank for Angles 3 days ago ,they are in my other tank waiting .Covered topsoil in a 75 gallon with dark flourite looks amazing with that color and plants .Got most of my plants from GLA ,great plants big and full i was surprised .just have to get test kits before i move them...btw thats for a detailed thread very help full!


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## wkndracer

oyeabog said:


> Hello Wkndracer ,Do you have any updated pics?


Thanks for the kudos! The tank is still here tick tock tick tock but in need of a trim. Once I clean away the overgrowth I'll get another pic posted.
Currently housing 5 unpaired adults in it I can't bring myself to part with,,, yet LOL


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## GMYukonon24s

That's a beautiful flower popping out the tank.


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## cableguy69846

Hey, wknd. Long time no see. How are things on your end?


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## wkndracer

*it's still here*



oyeabog said:


> Hello Wkndracer ,Do you have any updated pics ?...btw thats for a detailed thread very help full!


Back from the scary deep dark outside world (me not the tank).

Broke out the weed eater last weekend. The fish said thank you LOL.
Three years now on the same dirt, no ferts, no changes (except the fish).

Simply love to read posts about how this 'method' doesn't work, creates a mess, doesn't last, won't grow plants yada yada. 
hehe haha hoho lalalala (just can't seem to hear any of that) see ya'all at Christmas this year with the same tank still here. LOL

Pics of the ugly mess.


























Potting soil, Flourite, 4xT8 and a sponge equipped power head. :biggrin:


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## sewingalot

wkndracer said:


> Simply love to read posts about how this 'method' doesn't work, creates a mess, doesn't last, won't grow plants yada yada.
> hehe haha hoho lalalala (just can't seem to hear any of that) see ya'all at Christmas this year with the same tank still here. LOL


Ahem. IT DOESN'T WORK! :hihi:

By the way, the tank is amazing. Do you know the name of those crypts and the next time you weed eat those, will you keep me in mind?


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## driftwoodhunter

He still can't hear you, even when you yell - lol

He got me into the whole dirt tank thing, then he got me into the sponge filter thing, then you got me into the Hamburg Mattenfilter thing, which seems like a larger version of the sponge filter. Each time I adopt something new from here to my tanks, the tanks just get better and better. I love the way so many ideas from so many members can coalesce into one tank!


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## wkndracer

sorry :iamwithst I got lost in other places,,, hi Sara it's a wendtii dewitt dominated tank.


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## nonconductive

looking good mikey moo!


i too have to chuckle everytime i read some of those posts.


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## wkndracer

*soon to die at 4yrs old????*

Life is change and living through change may see the old dirt tank retire. :icon_sad:

Age had scratched the glass long before I got it and I resealed it setting it up years ago now. The plastic frame has become brittle and the center brace broke. Long owed to one of my sisters of the dirt here is a pic of of my wire center brace repair.
1/8" 316L stainless tig weld wire bent to clamp the frame and silicone sealant glued in place. It has held well enough.





Topping off this situation of age related damage we are currently clearing the kitchen for a remodel that includes cabinet replacement and I have it moved over against the wall holding about 100 HR Koi dime size babies.



so I lose my morning coffee seat soon.



such is life


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## DogFish

"The beginning of it starts at the end
When it's time to walk away and start over again."

- Tom Waits


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## Saxtonhill

so I lose my morning coffee seat soon.



such is life[/QUOTE]


I am in awe of your beautiful aquariums! Also think this is really amazing having the tank under the desk, although temporarily...


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## tylergvolk

I'm wondering if this tank is still alive?


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