# Paradise fish



## BettaBabe (May 1, 2015)

These are so pretty! This is the fish I wanted when I first started the hobby, but could never find. Haven't looked recently. May I ask where you got yours?


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## HDBenson (Jan 26, 2015)

PetCo used to carry these guys. Don't know if they still do. They are excellent fish for a centerpiece with cories patrolling the bottom. That's about all I could keep with mine. They are actually a temperate species. Great for unheated tanks. I never tried them with swordfish. I imagine this combo would work if you could find a medium with water flow.


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## Solitarianknight (May 28, 2015)

They did but they rarely do these days it seems. I wouldn't buy one from them anyways. I got mine from the LFS. I've never seen them stock these guys but they get one dropped off every now and then. I've seen a grand total of 4 in my life time. I owned 3 of those. I surrendered my first two because I just wasn't prepared to own such an aggressive fish, I still wanted to keep others. But now i'm finally content with where I am and I really just wanted a stress free fish. These guys do not get sick often and are still one of the hardiest species I've kept. 

I would advise you look around your LFS, ask about them. As far as I know there is no major retail breeder for these guys in the US so they have to be shipped over the pond. 

@HDBenson I'm in the process of finding tankmates for my dude now. I've got a clown pleco with him and since they rarely show themselves it works great. I'll end up with snails I'm sure. He doesn't seem to care for them. I wanted to try cory but in a 10gal I'd have to get dwarfs and he'd probably eat them.


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## shloken38 (Aug 17, 2012)

Whoa! You have a a clown pleco and a paradise fish in a 10 gallon? Think you should upgrade that bad boy immediately.


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## Solitarianknight (May 28, 2015)

shloken38 said:


> Whoa! You have a a clown pleco and a paradise fish in a 10 gallon? Think you should upgrade that bad boy immediately.


Or not. The clown is a dwarf. He's 2 inches long. I've had this setup for 3 years now. Trust me, I used to have the little dude in a 37 gallon for 4 years so he isn't stunted, he just never got very big. Clowns are not very active plecos and I always monitor my nitrates, all is well. I don't let my nitrates go above 12ppm. 

I understand the concern, plecos are certainly a handful and a BN of the same size would never work in a 10gal long term. Ideally clowns get 4" long, unfortunately that isn't the case for him. I made the decision to move him three years back when he was getting bullied by his larger clown companions. 

As for why he stayed so small, don't know. I got him when he was young and reared him in the 37 with some siblings, they all got 4" or so and he stayed half that size. I would NEVER recommend keeping a standard clown in a 10gal. Far too much bioload.

Tl;dr Oscar is a special snowflake.

Here's a pic from last months renovations. He's 7 now. That's Socrates he's next to. Ignore the tannin and dirt.


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## HDBenson (Jan 26, 2015)

I kept my Paradise gourami in an unheated 10g for about a year with three false julies with no casualties. It wasn't ideal but it worked. I lost the gourami during a move. It was my wife's favorite fish I've had so far. I've been looking for another as well. Not that hard though or else I imagine I'd have it by now, lol.


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## Solitarianknight (May 28, 2015)

HDBenson said:


> I kept my Paradise gourami in an unheated 10g for about a year with three false julies with no casualties. It wasn't ideal but it worked. I lost the gourami during a move. It was my wife's favorite fish I've had so far. I've been looking for another as well. Not that hard though or else I imagine I'd have it by now, lol.


Sorry to hear that. They do tend to grow on ya after a time. I actually got my boy to hold still and take a nice photo for the first time since i've had him today.


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## Grah the great (Jul 3, 2013)

I've kept (and done a lot of research on) PF's in the past, and it seems that they are far less agressive when there are multiple PF's in the tank...I have kept a total of 5 PF's in a 29 gallon community, all in either a group or a harem, and only one - a male named Cape - refused to cohabit with the platies and danios (both long and short finned) in the tank...he was a psycho, tore a danio in half, drove his female (Pearl) into hiding, and nipped a platy's fins so badly it got infected and died. Long story short, those who try PF's in communities would be best putting a harem or even mixed sex group (if the tank is large enough) into the tank to maximize their chances of success.

M. ocellatus is reportedly even less aggressive, to the point that it seldom bothers communities unless breeding, but they need an unheated tank with a cooldown period in the low 60's to low 50's every year for a few months...


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## Solitarianknight (May 28, 2015)

Grah the great said:


> I've kept (and done a lot of research on) PF's in the past, and it seems that they are far less agressive when there are multiple PF's in the tank...I have kept a total of 5 PF's in a 29 gallon community, all in either a group or a harem, and only one - a male named Cape - refused to cohabit with the platies and danios (both long and short finned) in the tank...he was a psycho, tore a danio in half, drove his female (Pearl) into hiding, and nipped a platy's fins so badly it got infected and died. Long story short, those who try PF's in communities would be best putting a harem or even mixed sex group (if the tank is large enough) into the tank to maximize their chances of success.
> 
> M. ocellatus is reportedly even less aggressive, to the point that it seldom bothers communities unless breeding, but they need an unheated tank with a cooldown period in the low 60's to low 50's every year for a few months...


Good to know.


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## shloken38 (Aug 17, 2012)

Solitarianknight said:


> Or not. The clown is a dwarf. He's 2 inches long. I've had this setup for 3 years now. Trust me, I used to have the little dude in a 37 gallon for 4 years so he isn't stunted, he just never got very big. Clowns are not very active plecos and I always monitor my nitrates, all is well. I don't let my nitrates go above 12ppm.
> 
> I understand the concern, plecos are certainly a handful and a BN of the same size would never work in a 10gal long term. Ideally clowns get 4" long, unfortunately that isn't the case for him. I made the decision to move him three years back when he was getting bullied by his larger clown companions.
> 
> ...


Gotcha. I take it back then....haha. I wanted so bad to pick up a paradise fish after I saw a few in an lfs near my house just a couple of weeks ago. But there's no way it would work in any of my setups.


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## Solitarianknight (May 28, 2015)

Well they're getting an upgrade now anyway. My gecko passed over night and I always said i'd give these guys the 20gal if i ever had one.


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## shloken38 (Aug 17, 2012)

Sorry to hear that....always sucks losing a family pet.


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## aquariumhobbyist (Feb 18, 2014)

Never found any of the other species in the LFS anywhere. Found the regular one from a local hobbyist. Well, actually I found 3: a male and 2 females reared from young together. I kept them in a 33 Gallon community tank with 2 pearl gouramis, a bunch of Angels, Apistos, nannacaras, guppies and neons... I managed to raise 5 fries into adulthood from broods in this tank. The male and female parents then died from what I believe was TB


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Does anybody have the red variant paradise fish and where did you find it?


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## Solitarianknight (May 28, 2015)

mistergreen said:


> Does anybody have the red variant paradise fish and where did you find it?


What red varient? Nvm i know which one, and they are extremely uncommon. Normally their sides are just copper/brown and not bright red


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Solitarianknight said:


> What red varient? Nvm i know which one, and they are extremely uncommon. Normally their sides are just copper/brown and not bright red


You have a picture of the red variety in your first post. They're red with blue stripes unlike what we find at the Lfs who are blue with red stripes.

None of these are that bright until breeding time.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

OOh, the super red is nice.

From what I understand the 'blue' fish is also wild. 'Red' and 'blue' morph are the same species that come from different environment/location.

The pet trade just breed the blue more because they think people like them more. I think the red morph is prettier. 

Socrates looks like he's a blue though. The blue lines are bigger than the red lines.
Here's where the red is bigger or the same as the blue


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## Solitarianknight (May 28, 2015)

The difference in between the Blue and Wild colorations is that the Wilds don't have that intense shiny blue color. Not that one's bands are thicker, that's just these photos. As far as I know, there are not blues like that in the wild, it's a possibility though. Either way, the two morphs have been deemed Blue and Wild to distinguish them. Calling it a red confuses it with the red morph.


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## jaliberti (Dec 5, 2015)

Solitarianknight said:


> ... Socrates is also a wild color. It's really only noticeable when they flare up. Technically they will color up whenever they get excited, we just call it a breeding color/coat


How this bruiser been doing?

Bump:


Solitarianknight said:


> ... Socrates is also a wild color. It's really only noticeable when they flare up. Technically they will color up whenever they get excited, we just call it a breeding color/coat


How this bruiser been doing?


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## Solitarianknight (May 28, 2015)

jaliberti said:


> How this bruiser been doing?
> 
> Bump:
> 
> How this bruiser been doing?


He's great! I ended up getting a 55gal tank for christmas and then I was given a huge 100gal tank custom stand so he's living his life up right now. I got a school of silver tips in with him that he leaves be, and a bunch of deco for him to play in. Still working on plants though, the tank feels empty lol. He gets along with everyone too. He did scrap it out with my banjo catfish but they havn't done anything since. That banjo gets a tad psycho during feeding.

Here's some pics from when I first set it up. Twas a tad bit cloudy lol but the wood is my fancy.


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## jaliberti (Dec 5, 2015)

Good to hear. Any bubble-nests? Any plans to breed him before he gets too old? I currently have 4 very aggressive males, each in its own 3 gallon tank. 3 are the show-type, 1 is the wild-type. I'm hoping the wild-type will build a bubble-nest. I have 3 heavily gravid females (also in separate 3 gallon tanks) and will give him the dominant one. I like that wild-type vs the show-type. They don't seem to be as common. I think of them as similar to B. splendens Plakats whereas the show-type are similar to B. splendens Veil-tails. The wild-type have a higher body-to-fin ratio, more body mass vs fin, in addition to what you had pointed out a few months ago, i.e. "Wilds don't have that intense shiny blue color."


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## shrimpNewbie (May 6, 2011)

Standard size or not I wouldn't keep a pleco in a 10g just my .02. Nice paradise though

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk


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## Solitarianknight (May 28, 2015)

shrimpNewbie said:


> Standard size or not I wouldn't keep a pleco in a 10g just my .02. Nice paradise though
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk


I understand but in the end, the fish had more then enough room and the params were well in order so there wasn't really an issue with keeping him there, it was also impossible to monitor his health in the Hex due to him being constantly hidden. Besides, everyone is now in the big tank so he has the entire root knot to himself which makes him both happy, and easy to check in on.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Solitarianknight said:


> Black Knight, Ocelot


Wow, this one is gorgeous. I didn't know paradise fish could look like that.


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## jaliberti (Dec 5, 2015)

JJ09 said:


> Wow, this one is gorgeous. I didn't know paradise fish could look like that.


That's a show-type Macropodus ocellatus, selectively bred for flashy appearance. Wild-types look different. Your avatar also depicts a fish very different from its original, wild form.

The ocellatus subspecies is not tropical, originating from northern China. They used to be nearly unheard of in US but in the last few years are listed on AquaBid from time to time. They semi-hibernate (that's not the correct terminology but you know what I mean) under ice during Winter months and require cold temperatures a few months per year.

M. opercularis is the most common subspecies, that's probably what you are accustomed to seeing. They originate in Taiwan, semi-tropical.

M. hongkongensis, as the name suggests, originate from Hong Kong. More tropical. In 2004 I was fortunate enough to acquire 10 specimens from the TUNG CHOI street market in Hong Kong, an aquarists dream come true.

M. erythropterus originate from Vietnam. Truly tropical. There is a Japanese aquarist who auctions off some very selectively bred specimens. I think some of his creations are on google images. He fetches top dollar for them, ~$100 USD per fish. Next time I see his auction(s) I'll post the link(s) here.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

A lot of those colorful photos were "enhanced" as well


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## jaliberti (Dec 5, 2015)

Yeah maybe that rainbow effect in the dorsal, and the red in the tail. But the elaborate finnage is the real deal, the result of an ever shrinking gene pool. One of the better YouTube uploads for ocellatus is entitled "Biotope aquarium for Macropodus ocellatus." 

Two observations from the video:

1) There are two adult males and two adult females in a relatively small tank, and only minor aggression takes place. This could never go down with the other subspecies. One, or both, would be shredded until the less dominant male hid in the back away from the females. (Even my female opercularis fight each other.) I've read from other aquarists that the southernmost variety (erythropterus) is more aggressive than opercularis, and I know from 1st hand experience that the HongKong variety is more aggressive than opercularis. Aggression may correlate with the latitude. 

2) The dorsal of one adult male is so elongated that is has taken on a deformed look. Again, the result of an ever shrinking gene pool. We can see also that the other male is the dominant fish, and the one that eventually spawns. Often male fish, of many species, with excess finnage breed only via human interference. I know from experience that a male Plakat will not permit a show-type B. splendens to spawn.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

jaliberti said:


> The dorsal of one adult male is so elongated that is has taken on a deformed look. Again, the result of an ever shrinking gene pool. We can see also that the other male is the dominant fish, and the one that eventually spawns. Often male fish, of many species, with excess finnage breed only via human interference. I know from experience that a male Plakat will not permit a show-type B. splendens to spawn.


 Interesting. I know I much prefer the plakat betta fin type- and in most other fishes I dislike the long, trailing fins- fancy goldfish, veil angelfish, etc. I was really surprised when I first saw a long-finned cherry barb at the pet store. To me they look unnatural, and obviously can't swim as well. I prefer to see a fish that can move quick and purposefully as nature designed it.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

JJ09 said:


> Interesting. I know I much prefer the plakat betta fin type- and in most other fishes I dislike the long, trailing fins- fancy goldfish, veil angelfish, etc. I was really surprised when I first saw a long-finned cherry barb at the pet store. To me they look unnatural, and obviously can't swim as well. I prefer to see a fish that can move quick and purposefully as nature designed it.


What if the long fins are naturally occurring in a wild population?


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

mistergreen said:


> What if the long fins are naturally occurring in a wild population?


Can you give an example? All the ones I can think of with long or extra-fancy fins: guppies, scalare, bettas, tetras, cherry barb, goldfish- have been bred into them. The original, wild-types have shorter fins in general, don't they?

I can think of some saltwater species that naturally have very long fins- like the moorish idol. What else?


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## jaliberti (Dec 5, 2015)

JJ09 said:


> Interesting. I know I much prefer the plakat betta fin type- and in most other fishes I dislike the long, trailing fins- fancy goldfish, veil angelfish, etc. I was really surprised when I first saw a long-finned cherry barb at the pet store. To me they look unnatural, and obviously can't swim as well. I prefer to see a fish that can move quick and purposefully as nature designed it.


Long-finned cherry barbs look unnatural because they ARE unnatural. 

Speaking of fancy goldfish, I recently saw a Moor Goldfish. Pathetic what's been done. "Black Moor is one of the slowest swimming goldfish species due to it’s obscene physical characteristics," is one of the 1st statements at blackmoorgoldfish dot org. Not once does the site mention that Goldfish (Carassius auratus) in their original form can move quick, and that Moors "obscene physical characteristics" are actually a handicap that have intentionally been created via human interference. Where I live there are feral Goldfish (wild-type) that compete with Large Mouth Bass, Pickerel, Bluegill, etc. They do fine when left to natural selection. Most fish species in aquaria today would be healthier if left to natural selection. 

In regards to preferring "the plakat betta fin type" - most real Plakat (not the HalfMoon Plakat) actually have shorter fins than their natural counterparts. B. splendens is the only fish species (that I know of) where artificial selection has led to both longer fins AND to shorter fins. I've purchased some very top shelf expensive fighters (see RainnyBetta on AquaBid), and also wild-type B. splendens (seller no longer active on AquaBid) for breeding/selling. Every fighter fin was shorter than every wild-type fin. The ventrals were absolutely cropped. Body large and muscle-bound.

I once put a fighter male and a wild male together and stood by with a net hovering over the tank, but my net wasn't required. After a minute the wild realized he was up against Brock Lesnar and hid in the floating Anacharis/Elodea. Brock Lesnar couldn't get to him. The wild trait of a slender body is conducive to hunting in the natural environment. And that brings up the final point: wilds won't fight to the death, the loser will simply flee. Killing each other is not practical to the survival of the species. 

But fighters will, and normally do. Often times BOTH combatants wind up dying, the "winner" a few days later when infection sets into his wounds. 

But I digress.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

JJ09 said:


> Can you give an example? All the ones I can think of with long or extra-fancy fins: guppies, scalare, bettas, tetras, cherry barb, goldfish- have been bred into them. The original, wild-types have shorter fins in general, don't they?
> 
> I can think of some saltwater species that naturally have very long fins- like the moorish idol. What else?


Some male in white clouds' fin will keep growing as they get older.
-Threadfin rainbows
-High fin barbs
-Drape Fin Barb
There are a few more. I think congo tetra's long fin is natural.

Long fins are used to attract mates etc....


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## Grah the great (Jul 3, 2013)

Many killifish grow impressive fins without any tampering from humans...Aphyosemion australe, Fundulopanchax sjoestedti, Aplochelius sp, Ophthalmolebias constanciae, Pterolebias sp, and MANY others. Terrantos is arguably the most bizzare...its dorsal and anal fins are each comparable in length to the fish and go almost straight up, resulting in a fish that looks like it had a boomerang stuck through the middle.


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## SDK (Jan 26, 2014)

These are great outdoor tub fish for those who live in cooler climates. I've added three or four to a well planted tub in the spring, and pulled dozens out by the fall. 

I once kept a group going for several years this way and had plenty of fish to trade. I would hold back some young in autumn, over winter them inside and repeat in the spring. They will keep any small pond or tub garden absolutely mosquito free....


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## rrg (May 3, 2016)

*How many Paradise Fish Could be kept peacefully in a 29 gallon?*

Has anyone been successful long term keeping several male & female PFs together in a 29 without other fish? Or maybe keeping several mature males only in a tank without other fish? 

Back in the 60's I bought one walking catfish and six tilapias and raised them together from fingerling size up to 6-7 inches in a 29gal. They did fine if kept well fed. Then one morning we found 6 dead tilapias and one remorseless catfish in the tank.


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## jaliberti (Dec 5, 2015)

rrg said:


> Has anyone been successful long term keeping several male & female PFs together in a 29 without other fish? Or maybe keeping several mature males only in a tank without other fish?


What does successful mean to you? PFs are tough fish. Real bruisers. Aggression that would kill (eventually) most species is just another day at work for PFs. They were born for it. Now if "successful" means no torn fins and holding hands while singing together - well that's another story. Breeding is also a different scene.

What does long term mean to you? week? month? year? I recently had 24 wild-caught PFs together in a 40g without other fish. (They are now distributed amongst 20g's, 10g's, and 3g's.) Nearly all of them arrived to me shredded. I had to euthanize 8 of them. I suspect they were in a holding tank without any regard for their well-being. With the set-up I was using however I could have kept them "successfully" for their lifetime.

Your description of "a 29" is too brief. Is it turbulent with no hiding places and no lines of sight broken and do you feed from just one point? If so you are asking for trouble with even just a few PFs. 

BTW, 29's IMO are a waste of money. Assuming a brand new purchase cost of $1 per gallon (Petco & Petsmart) we are better off with one 20Long + one 10g. 29's and 20Longs have the exact same surface area. For a buck more we get much more.

The successful 40g consisted of stagnant water, 16 spawning mops (10" length) distributed evenly, black plastic boxes in all 4 corners partially submerged so as to allow surface area inside them, and feeding distributed evenly.

_Macropodus_ are Anabantoids. Anabantoids are territorial (even supposedly peaceful Anabantoid species become demons when it's time for breeding). And _Macropodus_ are amongst the most territorial of all, IME second only to _Betta splendens_ and on par with _Belontia signata_. In a sense they are more vicious than either, because unlike _splendens_ they will harass other species of fish, and unlike _signata_ they are not skittish.

Add this to the fact that they prefer stagnant water. Aerated aquariums force them to compete for that one, small piece of ideal territory, as does feeding from just one point. You could put just 2 PFs in a million gallon tank with heavy aeration. They are both going to find that one piece of tranquility, perhaps behind some floating debris, and that's where they'll be.

Re your question on "keeping several mature males only in a tank without other fish" --- it's actually easier to keep males only vs males + females together. The latter forces the males to compete. Of course it's even easier to keep a female only tank, though there will still be aggression.

Lastly, siblings raised together can be kept together more successfully vs unrelated fish.

Good luck with them on congrats on keeping them. They are the original aquarium fish, and every other species pales in comparison.


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## solchitlins (Sep 11, 2013)

I have beed seeing them at my lfs lately. They're pretty cheap around here, like $4 or so.
I almost bought some for a community tank. Glad I googled first or would have had trouble


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## solchitlins (Sep 11, 2013)

I ended up buying empire gudgeons instead


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