# A Big Planted Tank



## TDSapp (Feb 28, 2019)

Hi All, 

I have had fish tanks for quite a while now and after having my salt water tank crash twice I am done with Salt water. I have also had a freshwater Cichlid tank but we got to tired of the aggression and always losing fish due to the fish going after each other. At one time I had three tanks going, one saltwater and two FW but this time we are going to stick with one tank for now. Maybe a second one from time to time as a quarantine tank. 

I want to go somewhat Low Tech and am planning on doing a soil substraight capped with some pool filter sand (Maybe black sandblasting media, depends on what the wife says) and then rocks, drift wood and plants.

Tank is currently empty which I think is a good place to start as I don't want to jump into this too fast. I have never had a planted tank before and want to do it right. The tank is a 150 tall which is 48 X 24 X 30 and under the cabinet is a 60 gallon sump that will probably have around 40 gallons in it. Here are a couple photos of the tank. (Yes, the stand is DIY)



















I do have a canopy that house the lights which include a 250w HP buld, currently at 14K in color range, a couple 50 LED fixtures (need to replace the power supplies for them) and a couple florescent antic bulbs. The lights were good for coral growth so I am hoping that they will be good for plant growth. 

The sump has been cleaned better since the photo was taken and does not have any baffles in it. I can put new baffles in if needed, but they were set up for a skimmer, refugium, and the return pump so I pulled them to make it easier to clean and reconfigure. I know that I have at least 5 gallons worth of Bio-Balls that will go in there, maybe 10 gallons total after I look under the 55 gallon tank when I get home. 


I do plan on this being a fish tank so fish are part of the plan. Here is the current list I am thinking about but this may change a few times before I get ready to add them.

Neon Tetras (8+)
Peacock Gudgeon
Killifish (2+)
Pineapple Swordtail
Dwarf Gourami (2+)
Cherry Barb
Oto's (2+)

After the tank is a little more stable and running for a while

Pleco (once some algae starts to show up for it)
Cherry Shrimp (more than 1 less than ???)

Fish in the "Maybe" column are

Hi Fin Lyretail Swordtail
Green Kubotai Rasbora (10+)
Boesemani Rainbow

I have though about some fancy guppies but I am not sure I want the work of having to always find someone to give the fry to. 

If you have any warnings or suggestions please feel free to speak up. I'm not shy and neither should you. :smile2:


When it comes to plants I have been thinking about the following.


Plants


If you see anything wrong with that list please speak up. :laugh2: Ok, so I have never had a planted tank before because I don't think that plastic plants count. I am open to any suggestions you have. Since this tank is so tall I do want some plants that can grow tall for the back. I am also going to have some open space towards the front for open sand and open swimming. Not really thinking about plants that will carpet the entire tank but in the middle towards the back I don't have a problem with it being busy.


From the sounds of what I have heard recently I may end up having to have some Co2 added to the water. I am looking into what that entails. Question on that though is can I put the bubbles into the sump water or do they have to be in the display tank?

I will probably be sitting up a 20 gallon tank today with some holey rock and bioballs to start some bacteria growth. I still have some ammonia at the house from starting my cichlid tank. That way when I get water in the big tank I will have a slight head start on it.


So now is the time that we all get to talk about what I am doing either right or wrong, and what plants I need to check out.


Tim Sapp
Frisco, TX

Bump: Ok, so apparently I have to have more post before I can post a picture from my site. If you want to see them, they are over here.

http://hotrod.sapp-family.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/20190225_080701.jpg

http://hotrod.sapp-family.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/20190225_080718.jpg


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## fpn (Mar 28, 2018)

I will just bring it up: "tall tanks are hard".

You end up having too much light on top (algae) and not enough at the lower levels (e.g. if you dream of a carpet).


You will want to setup your sump as a wet/dry filter.

I would do CO2 for a tank like this, you run the return from your wet/dry sump through a DIY CO2 reactor:

https://barrreport.com/index.php?threads/3413/

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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

I would avoid a wet-dry area of the sump if you plan on using CO2. Wet-dry filters will off-gas a tremendous amount of CO2.


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## TDSapp (Feb 28, 2019)

Quagulator said:


> I would avoid a wet-dry area of the sump if you plan on using CO2. Wet-dry filters will off-gas a tremendous amount of CO2.


Thanks Q,

I was under the impression that wet-Dry was a problem. I was planning on having the bio-balls submerged to cut down on the agitation of the water so the CO2 bleed off would not be that bad. I still think I may end up having to have a CO2 system on the tank. Would that not help with the algae at the higher levels?

Tim


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

TDSapp said:


> Thanks Q,
> 
> I was under the impression that wet-Dry was a problem. I was planning on having the bio-balls submerged to cut down on the agitation of the water so the CO2 bleed off would not be that bad. I still think I may end up having to have a CO2 system on the tank. Would that not help with the algae at the higher levels?
> 
> Tim


If you can achieve a full 1.0 drop in pH (preferably a 1.2 - 1.3 peak drop in pH) from dissolving CO2, you should be a step in the right direction for overcoming algae. It's all dependent on your light, fertilizers and CO2 (within reason). 

That 14K bulb is not preferable for plant growth. What are the spectrum's of the LED's?


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## TDSapp (Feb 28, 2019)

Quagulator said:


> If you can achieve a full 1.0 drop in pH (preferably a 1.2 - 1.3 peak drop in pH) from dissolving CO2, you should be a step in the right direction for overcoming algae. It's all dependent on your light, fertilizers and CO2 (within reason).
> 
> That 14K bulb is not preferable for plant growth. What are the spectrum's of the LED's?



I also have a 10K bulb and can get one that is lower. (Like a 6.5K or 8K) I have no idea about the LEDs. I got them off a used equipment rack at a LFS. They were great with my coral until the power supplies went out. I may look into them getting measured by a PAR meter if I get the chance.


Tim


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## fpn (Mar 28, 2018)

Quagulator said:


> I would avoid a wet-dry area of the sump if you plan on using CO2. Wet-dry filters will off-gas a tremendous amount of CO2.


They also add a lot of O2 - and in a tall tank you want that. Tom Barr seals his wet/dry and highly recommends them.

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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

fpn said:


> They also add a lot of O2 - and in a tall tank you want that. Tom Barr seals his wet/dry and highly recommends them.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


If it's sealed how does it add O2?


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## fpn (Mar 28, 2018)

Quagulator said:


> If it's sealed how does it add O2?


Yes - that part always gets me too, but I don't setup giant beautiful planted tanks for a living, so I trust him on that.

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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

fpn said:


> Yes - that part always gets me too, but I don't setup giant beautiful planted tanks for a living, so I trust him on that.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


If it's sealed = no O2 = Not a true "wet dry" as there is no/limited gas exchange. 

Plenty of other ways to increase gas exchange. More gas exchange = more preferable. 

Point output(s) at surface to increase surface agitation. 

Increased surface agitation + an overflow = more than enough gas exchange capability with or without a sealed sump. 

Expect / intend to use more CO2 with a sump set-up to offset the increased off-gassing.


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## fpn (Mar 28, 2018)

Quagulator said:


> If it's sealed = no O2 = Not a true "wet dry" as there is no/limited gas exchange.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As you point out a sealed wet/dry sump would get O2 though the overflow. I guess that is the answer to the riddle why he measures higher O2.

In my case surface agitation is limited due to having water lettuce which prefers a more calm surface.

There is of course the low tech fraction that want the plants to consume the Ammonia and feel the wet/dry filter is depriving the plants of a more accessible nutrient source.

The high tech answer is Ammonia == algae , which is of course a function of the light as well.

So at the end there are multiple view points and specific circumstances - in this case I would recommend CO2 because of the high lights and the more technical salt tank background and increased O2 due to the tall tank. I run a bubbler in my tall tank (in addition to the integrated wet/dry), and it keeps my fish happier.

And yes, you would add extra CO2.

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## TDSapp (Feb 28, 2019)

Ok, so now that I know I will have to look into CO2 on my tank, what about the rest of it?

Any problems with the livestock list and plants? 

I have seen that Anubus is a popular plant, does it not need to be put into soil? Is that something I can put on rocks and drift wood to get them higher up into the tank or are they ok as low light plants? 


Tim


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

TDSapp said:


> Ok, so now that I know I will have to look into CO2 on my tank, what about the rest of it?
> 
> Any problems with the livestock list and plants?
> 
> ...


I will suggest going onto a large website such as Tropica's (large plant supplier) and looking through their plant selection. They have fairly accurate recommendations on the requirements for each plant. 

As for anubias, they are a low-light, low demanding plant that grows slow and should not be planted in substrate. Instead glue them or tie them to rocks / driftwood. Other plants to do so are any java fern or any Bolbitus or any moss or any Buce.


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## allexx46 (Feb 15, 2019)

*Fish List*

Hi there,

I am transforming a 165 show tank very similar to yours inclusive of the sump but is 60" long. Before the plants and use of the overflow chambers as refugiums, it was a very successful SA Cichlid community tank. The process posed lots of risk with the fish and I have lost some to get to where I am now. Have a look at my post. I have a ton of feedback from the forum that will apply directly. I am only good with fish at the moment but have learned that in the endeavor that you are going to undertake that rushing is not good. I suggest you get your planted tank up and cycling first. Perhaps several months in advance of fish. You are going to learn a lot getting the plants to grow and fighting the first Algae, not to mention make a lot of mistakes. Deep tanks are very hard but you know that as this was a marine before this. 
My note on the fish:
I like them but look up the habits of the Otto's I think that they are schooling and I would add at least 6 if not more. I would skip the pleco and get a fleet of 6-10 Panda Gara (so much fun to watch). 
I worry about the shrimp as it seems some of the fish will grown big enough to think of the shrimp as food. You need Amano Shrimp as they are the ones that eat Black Beard and hairy Algae. I would replace the sword tails with fancy Mollys because of their love for eating these nasty algeas. You will learn to hate these algae. I am engaged in a battle with then now. As for the Sump, I would recommend sealing it if at all possible. But I would add a Refugium to use up more of the fish waste and make more O2. Your Sump is Massive and you have room. I love the ones I have in my overflows because I can grow little waste eating critters in them that would be food in the main tank. The fish in my main tank dig so planted is a luxury I will be jealous of. 

Thanks for starting this thread. I will subscribe and learn along with you! The guys on this forum are great!


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## TDSapp (Feb 28, 2019)

allexx46 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I am transforming a 165 show tank very similar to yours inclusive of the sump but is 60" long. Before the plants and use of the overflow chambers as refugiums, it was a very successful SA Cichlid community tank. The process posed lots of risk with the fish and I have lost some to get to where I am now. Have a look at my post. I have a ton of feedback from the forum that will apply directly. I am only good with fish at the moment but have learned that in the endeavor that you are going to undertake that rushing is not good. I suggest you get your planted tank up and cycling first. Perhaps several months in advance of fish. You are going to learn a lot getting the plants to grow and fighting the first Algae, not to mention make a lot of mistakes. Deep tanks are very hard but you know that as this was a marine before this.
> My note on the fish:
> ...


allexx thanks for posting a reply.

First of all, I already hate algae and just got water in the tank this weekend. I have had issues with it before.


The more I read about planted tanks the more I am thinking that I am just going to make this one a fish tank. I ordered at 7 gallon nano tank last week and I may start it as a planted tank. Then if it works for me then I have a 20 gallon tank and a 55 gallon tank I can start planting. 

Thanks for the suggestion on the Fancy Mollys vs Swordtails. I am thinking that I will go that route. Same thing with the Panda Garas vs the plecos. 

Tim


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## crypto (Apr 12, 2012)

I think those cherry shrimp will get eaten...I'd stick with Amanos.


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## allexx46 (Feb 15, 2019)

Tim,

I have a question about your 150. Does it have an Apex on it?

I forgot one more recommendation for livestock. You may of noticed that all the fish I recommended were part of the "clean-up crew" which I define as creatures that integrate into the eco system by eating something that will exist naturally in the tank. This one is really important if you are going to forgo plants: Snails Depending on the larger fish you get and if they will pick on them the Nerite Snail is a must have (read up on them). They do the fine cleaning of the spot algae where the Garra and Ottos will do the coarse cleaning. But to me the most important is the trumpet snail. They eat waste, algae or almost any bio-film. They will live in your bio-filter in your sump and keep your biological media active. They burrow into the sand and keep anaerobic hot spots from forming. They are live bearers so they do not leave eggs laying around. They multiply really fast and their population will "Bloom" when you have too much food. I have a nest of Stag Horn Algae right now and have a Bloom of Trumpet snails in the middle of it... This has me very curious to if they will eradicate it for me. A Bloom in most cases means you need to clean the tank. Simply clean the tank and let nature take its course and they will reduce down to a population that your waste level will support. Without plants this biomass of snails can cause the pH to drop. To counter that I add a cup of Crushed Coral to the sand when I start to see the pH drop. If you decide to go with trumpet snails you might want to get something that eats them. Many Pleco's will eat the small ones and probably shrimp too. A couple of weeks ago the Wet Spot had Two Sunshine (AKA Golde) Pleco in stock. They are really rare. 4-5". they sent me pictures. I will add them. I have one in my tank now and love it But my wife said NO MORE FISH! or I would of bought them. Might push you to bigger fish after 2-3 years. They top out at 6-7" They would work with most of your fish except the Shrimp and maybe the Otos. 

By the way I recommended waiting on fish in the planted tank because you will need to zero in on your fertilizer levels and if you go too high while zeroing in, the fish are the casualties. Same is true of CO2. Remember that if you go to add plants later. Have fun with the fish tank. 

FYI there is a Rainbow fish enthusiast on this forum that has a Title of Planted Tank Guru. Never chatted with him but from his posts it appears he likes to talk rainbow.


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## TDSapp (Feb 28, 2019)

allexx46 said:


> Tim,
> 
> I have a question about your 150. Does it have an Apex on it?
> 
> ...



I do not have an Apex but I do have a Reef Angel on the tank. Right now I only have the heater and the return pump on it but will probably have the lights on it tonight. I am used to the idea of a clean up crew since they are required with saltwater. I was planning on having snails as part of that crew. I will probably get more than one kind as well.


Tim


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## edwardsmith (Apr 15, 2015)

I have this exact setup, recommend by Barr. Wet-Dry Bio Balls with CO2 injection. Just keep the sump firmly sealed. IM me if you want pics. Thanks, Ed


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## TDSapp (Feb 28, 2019)

OK, here is an update on my tank. I had started thinking that I was going to do a fish only tank with no plants. So I started putting the decorations in the tank. These include some rocks, drift wood and plastic plants. Yesterday I also picked up the last power supply needed for my LED lights. So I got all of the LEDs put back on the canopy and turned them on.









Then yesterday while doing more reading and having some plants in my Nano tank I decided that I was going to get some tabs and plants for this tank too. I bought a Amazon Compacta and a Staurogyne Repens and put them into the tank last night. I may need to pull the Amazon up out of the sand a bit as I think I planted it too deep. 









Here are some closer shots of the plants.


















I will be getting more plants for both tanks once I find some local guys to get them from. No need in spending too much money at the LFS when I can get them from real planted tank guys.


Tim


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## mboley (Jan 26, 2018)

I use a sump and don't seal it. 
Here's an alternative that works well. 

With a sump you likely use a filter sock. A standard 7" diameter filter sock can be capped with a Pyrex 7" lid. It fits perfectly.
Cut a hole in the Pyrex lid to match the diameter of your drain pipe and install. I also added a 90 elbow with a reducing fitting on the end along with a little bailing material inside the fitting, which will catch some bubbles and reduce degassing. 

I'll post some pictures if anyone's interested.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Flora and fauna have a symbiotic relationship in nature and I feel that we are trying to simulate nature in our creations. IME, fish love planted aquariums. I had unplanted tanks for many years and there is a noticeable difference in the happiness of fish in a planted environment. It makes me happy that you decided to plant your "big" tank. If you need some stems, shoot me a PM. I will be happy to send you some for the cost of shipping. Keep in mind that most of the plants I could provide would require CO2 and a fert regimen as I have pretty much moved on from low tech plants. 

I would also recommend that you did not go with a capped dirt tank. In the long run, it would be much easier to go with an inert substrate (PFS or BDBS) and dosing fertilizers.


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## TDSapp (Feb 28, 2019)

mboley said:


> I use a sump and don't seal it.
> Here's an alternative that works well.
> 
> With a sump you likely use a filter sock. A standard 7" diameter filter sock can be capped with a Pyrex 7" lid. It fits perfectly.
> ...


I have left my sump open for the time being. I can always close it later if I choose to. 

Instead of a sock I have a large clump of filter floss right at the exit of the overflows. This stops the bubbles and does a good job of filtering out the crap that comes out of the tank. I also have a mesh laundry bag filled with bio-balls tossed in there. Probably around 10 to 15 gallons worth of them. 




AguaScape said:


> Flora and fauna have a symbiotic relationship in nature and I feel that we are trying to simulate nature in our creations. IME, fish love planted aquariums. I had unplanted tanks for many years and there is a noticeable difference in the happiness of fish in a planted environment. It makes me happy that you decided to plant your "big" tank. If you need some stems, shoot me a PM. I will be happy to send you some for the cost of shipping. Keep in mind that most of the plants I could provide would require CO2 and a fert regimen as I have pretty much moved on from low tech plants.
> 
> I would also recommend that you did not go with a capped dirt tank. In the long run, it would be much easier to go with an inert substrate (PFS or BDBS) and dosing fertilizers.


Yeah I have added a few more since then as well. The fish seem to like it as many of them choose to stay on that side of the tank. 

Thank you for the offer of the stems. I think I will take you up on that and send you that PM. I am looking at going with CO2 on the tank anyway. To keep the lights on long enough for the plants I am seeing the water starting to turn a bit green. As for the ferts... I guess I could always pull out the dosing pump and put it back on the Reef Angel.


I did not put any soil under the PFS in the tank. Right now I have tabs in the sand around the plants but I hear they are harder to control than dosing the ferts. So I may be really looking into that at a later time.


Tim


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

@TDSapp It was through the kindness of others that I got my plant selection and I want to pay it forward. Check your PMs.


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