# What's wrong with my swordplant?



## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

Hi, 
when i got my red rubin sword, it looked like this:









Then a bunch of snails and 70 pleco fry later, the swords were decimated and every leaf had numerous holes in it as the plecos and snails loved to eat them quite a bit.

But now, after maybe 10 months now, the swords have shortened overall, their leaves have become much thinner, and they still get holes in the leaves, but no where near as many as when there were many snails and plecos:

















I want to know what's up? are they missing nutrients? light?
They are planted in play sand substrate and are given an osmocote tablet every 6 months. Additionally i dose about 2mL of iron once a week, and around 2.5mL of Kent Pro-Plant fertilizer once a week. There are 2x 5 gallon water changes twice a week. Plants are lit in a spotlight of 3x 3W Cree LEDs (cool whites) so i know they have higher lighting.
Tank is stocked very well with an angel, platy, plecos, neons, so they get a lot of CO2.
Please help?


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

I know there is a drastric difference between leaf length and shape from when i first got it to now. I think part of that may be because the plant may have been growing emersed when i got it and then i submerged it so it grew different leaves.

But look at those holes! the lesions. gross. what is causing this? what specific nutrient am i missing if any? osmocote pills have just about everything i can think of...
oh and there is also a thin layer of flourite substrate under the sand so the plants might get iron from there too.

overall they don't even look that red either?


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

anybody?


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

cmon you aquatic plant experts, please help me out!


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## Italionstallion888 (Jun 29, 2013)

I load mine up with root tabs. These can be heavy root feeders. I put 3 directly under mine every 3 months.


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## pchnts8 (Oct 6, 2013)

Not sure about plecos but snails tend not to eat live plants, so while they were munching on the plant, its more likely the leaves were dying already, and the snails can then "suck it up". 

It would be useful to know whether the ghostly leaves in the pictures represent what remains of the original leaves, or whether they were leaves grown since it was installed.

Also, have you tried uprooting one of the plants to check its roots?

From the pictures, the plants look light starved, since it seems to have the materials to put out leaves, but not enough energy to generate chlorophyll. Lack of red is also a symptom of a lack of light. I'm not familiar with 3W LEDs. Does that even put out 120 mmol/m2/sec? If its far above the tank and the spot is "spread" too much, light intensity drops off significantly. Your pictures look really dark, but hard to tell given light sources and camera equip.

I grow a small rosette sword (E Parviflorus) in my 10g nano, injected CO2, under 48w CFL, 2 dKH, 6.8ph, 1 ml of Seachem Flourish /wk, and it looks to put out a new leaf every couple days. New growth is a little transluscent but not sure if that is just a growth habit or a deficiency. It sort of fills in with the green in subsequent days.


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

yes, when i pulled all of these to replace the tabs last, i noticed that these do not have a big root system at all. not what i expected in a sword plant.

so you are saying to put more tablets under the roots?

how would i test the PAR on these LEDs? i do not have a PAR meter...


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## xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx (Jul 12, 2011)

In my opinion Osmocote Plus tabs should be replaced every 3-4 months, the listed "9 month" time period is based on them being placed in dry to damp conditions. Because we are using them in fully submerged water conditions means that they have a shorter release time period, which is why I replace mine every 3-4 months.


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

ok so how many do the sword need per plant?


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

I put in one more tablet under each main plant. i also trimmed off all of the leaves with holes. now lets see what happens.


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## jstehman (Dec 13, 2010)

You could try adding a handful or two of some flourite or SafeTSorb under the sword. They are heavy root feeders and I don't think playsand has a very high nutrient holding ability.

Like you said in your post, the roots are small. Maybe the substrate is too shallow? The plant does not grow upwards because it has no anchor.


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

substrate is 2" and i do not add more because there are already air bubbles forming even at this depth of substrate. don't want problems.

there is already some fluorite substrate at the very bottom, beneath the play sand.
Each plant now has two Osmocote tablets under it. I will see what happens. getting some red leaves on one of them.


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## pchnts8 (Oct 6, 2013)

Sword plants grow an extensive root system naturally. The fact they are shallow means there is some substrate problem, likely lack of circulation, you've certainly put in fertilizer so it can't be a nutrient problem. Perhaps the playsand is too dense.

I'm not even at the stage of my tank acclimation yet where I can start root tab fertilizers. I've seen roots from my 4" plant extending out 6" in diameter (I'm in week 4 of my tank). Its on 2.5" of flourite substrate. When I initially planted it from the pot, I cut back the roots to about 1.5" so its been growing quite a bit.

As for lighting, without an accurate measurement its hard for me to give advice as I'm not familiar with LEDs. I would suggest an experiment, try shining another light-source against part of the plants, and see if it helps that part. Like if you had an old flourescent fixure, or replace a bulb on a standard light fixture to something more intense.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

The holes are 100% not nutrient deficiency holes. They are likely pleco or snail holes. Nutrient deficiencies would have a brown or yellow boarder around the holes and the holes would not have such neat margins like that and definitely would not be cut across leaf veins.

The growth difference you noticed from when you first bought the plant to how it looks now is probably the difference between when it was grown emersed and later converted to submersed growth. The way you see it now is typical of its underwater form. Though I have definitely seen red rubins with more color to them.

While 3x3 watt LEDs sounds like a lot of light it is unlikely to be "high light" conditions. Perhaps low-medium low light. The plant gets progressively redder in higher light tanks and the plant in the photos isn't very red. Also, CO2 provided by fish is not very much at all. Plants like swords are very nutrient hungry and do well with high amounts of CO2 which can only be achieved by adding CO2.

I don't think there is any obvious sign of acute deficiency in your plants. Though you can certainly add more light, CO2 and possibly nitrate and iron fertilizers to perk up its appearance.


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

@pchnts8: is your sword a red rubin sword? other sword species are very different and grow larger than this one. i am surprised by the lack of extensive root system. no the sand is not too dense it is very loose. water circulation in my tank is very good because i keep hypancistrus plecos in here now. i have two filters going, an AC 70 and a Tetra Whisper 20i. lots of flow and oxygenation for the plecos and the plants.

@Zapins: yeah there are still plenty of ramshorn snails around my tank. the ones that do not grow over 1" or more. reds, browns, blues, albinos, i have them all by now. they breed like crazy. totally out compete the bladder snails! I thin kthey were helping eat the sword back when the pleco fry were also indulging in the swords a bit too much.

prob because of the light then. definitely not high light, but its bright enough i think to grow these swords. i started with two big ones about a year ago and now i have around 6 plants. there were others that i threw out because i was clumsy and damaged them in replanting a few months ago. these are super fragile plants! crispy!

I'm just going to scrape by with what i have for them now and see how they do. if you think they are not deficient in any way. aside from higher light.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Sounds fine. Plants can be grown in a lot of different conditions. The conditions your swords are in are not optimal, but you can clearly grow them just fine. Not every plant has to be kept in unlimiting conditions to grow and look nice. If you are happy with the way they are growing and the way they look then there is no reason to change anything.

The crispiness you mention is a sign that they are on the lower edge of their growing parameters (probably lighting). Most swords do not feel crispy, they are usually pretty flexible and tough except for the stems which are somewhat brittle. Again, this is not necessarily a big problem unless it gets to the point were the plant disintegrates with a touch.


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

i meant the petioles are very crispy and fragile at the base where it connects to the stem.


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## ADJAquariums (Jul 5, 2012)

Its melting getting used to the tank, i keep rubins and whenever i move them they do this (Can do this for up to about a week in my expereince). need a lot of nutrients at the substrate and much more light than being provided (If the top picture is your tank) If you add Root tabs that will suffice for the time being. Long term you might want to look at flourite or even a dirted tank. And the bubbles that come out of the substrate are not air pockets, their nitrogen thats being created by the bacteria in the substrate, just have to release them every so often by digging a finger in or using a skewer

Rubins tend to be a bit more fragile then other swords


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

i do have a flourite layer at the bottom. it was from when i changed from 100% flourite substrate to play sand. didnt get all of the flourite out.

So everyone now thinks i do not have the sufficient lighting to keep these swords?

I do not see how its melting for so long. you said one week. i've been getting holes in it ever since i released my plecos into the main tank and my snail populations spiked. up until now. the plants have been in this tank for over a year now.

And yes that's what i meant by air pockets. air is mostly nitrogen anyway. but i do get the difference between the bacteria-fixed nitrogen and regular air we breathe. good to know its normal even in shallow substrates!

Should I try a different plant? maybe a hardy stem plant? I know i have at least low light conditions here in the spotlight, maybe slightly more.
Any plant recommendations?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

You do have enough to sustain the plant otherwise it wouldn't be growing new plants and have survived for so long. 

The plant would prefer more light but that isn't necessary to keeping it alive and growing. 



> Should I try a different plant?


Come on, you are asking this on a plant forum with 1000's of ravenously obsessed plant hobbyists! Of course you should add more plants ! Don't get rid of your sword, but definitely try adding other plants you like.


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

Haha! I will think about adding something that will fare better, thanks for all your help everyone!


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## ADJAquariums (Jul 5, 2012)

From what your saying it seems as if what it really needs is more nutrients at the roots


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

it already has TWO Osmocote tablets under the roots AND Flourite layer at the bottom. AND on top of that i dose the tank with a little iron and Kent plant fert every week.
What more can it possibly want???

I think it's the light that is to blame.


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## ADJAquariums (Jul 5, 2012)

With that dosing regiment and the root tabs i would have to agree


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

lol i know right, these are getting to be more whiny that i bargained for


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## ADJAquariums (Jul 5, 2012)

so are you going to be looking into a stem plant now or another variety of sword?


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

no more swords. my substrate wont be deep enough for a bigger sword i want.
maybe some stem plant. what's a good low light one? that may work with my scape? i think the red rubins worked with my scape for a while.


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## ADJAquariums (Jul 5, 2012)

Im not sure how many stem plants there are that could work there... Maybe Ludwigia Repens? i've been able to grow them well in low light conditions, however they dont usually keep their red for long. You could always go super easy and look at Elodea, i by no means recommend it! I personally hate the stuff and think it needs to stop being sold.

You've got a thin substrate but i would look at other types of swords, amazons could do well with what you've got


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

you think an amazon sword would be happy in here? because that is the sword i wanted.


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## ADJAquariums (Jul 5, 2012)

Amazon swords are excellent plants for situations that are less than par for other sword varieties. I honestly wouldn't be afraid to float them they are that hearty. I've had Amazon swords in all my tanks, 10 g. Just gravel fluorescent 10W bulbs and it did fairly well. They enjoy root tabs as well so it wouldn't hurt to throw one in with it


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

arent osmocote tablets the same as root tabs? both are fertilizer. i bought a bunch of osmocote because i thought they'd last longer.

Now to find someone who will want to trade my red rubins for one amazon sword.


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

so i was unable to find a trade, but i have bought compacta amazon swords from someone on this forum so i will give those a shot and see if they behave better than these red rubins. I'll probably get rid of the red rubins later on (a friend wants them.)


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

got some compacta amazons. probably very similar to regular amazon sword plants.


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## ADJAquariums (Jul 5, 2012)

Extremely similar, they are supposed to stay smaller than amazons, but in my experience its only by about 2 inches. Good find, i prefer them over amazons, even though i have amazons in all my tanks


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

I hope they do well give my strange light!
in theory, since their leaves reach way higher, they should be getting enough light as opposed to the shorter red rubins, but i'm not 100% sure what exactly will happen. if they look this good a year from now, I will be super happy with my tank


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## ADJAquariums (Jul 5, 2012)

I would think it will do well there, Does it get any ambient light? such as ceiling fixtures/lamps or windows? if so that will definitely help it


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

yeah there are CFL bulbs in the kitchen lamp which is a few feet away from the plants.

so now i have been growing the new swords for a week and the new leaves coming out are curled??
what's wrong with them now? what did i do? T_T
I used to be so good at growing plants back when i had my dual HO T-5 78W over this tank. and a CO2 system haha.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Pics are needed.


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

I'll try to get some.


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

Zapins said:


> Pics are needed.


Here are some pics. notice how the newly grown leaves fold a lot more and curl either outwards or inwards than the old, smoother growth.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

What are you adding for Ca and Mg? Do you have a GH reading or a calcium test reading?


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

yep, my dGH is very high at 20-23dGH so i assume calcium is readily available. also dKH is 6-8dKH varies with season seems like. but my water is overall hard and alkaline but only at 7.5pH

I dose Kent Pro-Plant fertilizer once a week, about 3mL to my 40 gallon (about 37 gallon in reality)

there are also tons of snails breeding in the tank so calcium turnover is high. dead ones release lots of calcium while breeding ones keep it flowing through the system. i am sure there is calium and magnesium in here, the question is is there way too much? what makes aquatic plant leaves curl like this?


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

bump


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Curling can be due to a lot of things. It could be an imbalance of Ca:Mg (too high Mg). Chlorine from untreated water can cause curling, nitrate deficiency can cause curling and deterioration in older leaves possibly a few other things.

Did you manage to get any root tabs for the new plants?

What are you adding for nitrates currently?


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

i always have osmocote tabs under the plants.

i dose Kent fert like i said which has nitrogen source/nitrates and all the other useful stuff like magnesium, boron, sulfur.

my tank water has no toxic forms of chlorine. i always treat water with prime before putting it into the tank. chlorine is converted to a safer form for fish.

also i am quite high on bioload with fish (mostly plecos) and tons and tons of snails that poop everywhere. so there are lots of phosphates, nitrates, and carbon sources available for the swords. i do not get why they'd be curing. older leaves are not deteriorating yet.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Give it a bit of time. The issue will probably become more clear with time.

Also, if your Mg level excedes the Ca level you will often see curling. It isn't about ppms it is about the ratio between the two that causes the issue.


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

well there is no way to control the two right? buying DI water is not an option - this is meant to be a low cost maintenance tank.
if the mag is coming from the tap then nothing i can do about it. the only way i can control it is limit mag from the Kent fert by dosing less.

I'll just live with the problem i guess. maybe not all leaves will curl.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Hard water is not really a problem. I had well water with 21 degrees of hardness and plants grew amazingly well in that tank. Best plants I've ever grown really.

DI is one way to alter the ratio, but so is adding Ca and stopping any Mg addition. Before you start changing Ca:Mg ratios though, why not take a water sample to the LFS and have them test it for free. Ask them to do a Ca test and a GH test. We can calculate what the Mg is from those two numbers. You may not have a problem with Ca:Mg at all.

Also, the curling you are seeing isn't quite bad enough to really definitively identify it as a deficiency. More time is needed to say for sure.


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

well hopefully new leaves will not curl as the ones in the photos. it could have been shipping stress.

i dont think my LFS will test the Ca on FW only saltwater. same with Mag.
And i already can measure my GH, i've posted it in an earlier post.

We'll see what happens.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Any updates on your plants?


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

Yeah, leaves arent curling any more - must have been a shipping stress thing as the plants put out only 2-3 curled leaves before putting out good looking ones.

however now my older and even medium-age leaves are starting to get holes in them. it's like the tissue is thinning out and the net venation of the leaf is starting to get holey and the tissue is thinning out until holes appear. am i not fertilizing enough? the oldest leaves are turning yellow which i think may be normal since they are old, but am not sure.

Medium age leaves:









Older leaves:









Normal? Abnormal?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Looks like pleco/catfish damage for sure.


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

dang, you really think so? i only have 3 BN pleco juveniles in here and i was hoping that when i reduced their numbers from 70+ to 3 that the plant eating would stop. i guess not lol. i never see them eating it though so it must be at night.

my other 6 plecos are all carnivorous hypancistrus so they wouldn't touch my plants.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Yes definitely pleco damage. Even 1 fish can mess up a sword plant quite badly. They are primarily nocturnal so they are likely doing it at night.

I'm not sure about carnivorous plecos, perhaps they do leave plants alone I've never really kept them.


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

turns out, i was missing Potassium...i checked all my ferts and that was the only missing nutrient - an important one too.
got some today.
swords look horrendous. old leaves are dying, holes, yellow, death, horrible...x_x

potassium deficiency makes sense, I will update on it once it gets going again.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Did you remove the plecos?

Also, I think the root tabs you use have potassium in them.

I am interested to see what happens. Post an update when you can, pics would be nice too!


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

no i did not remove the plecos.
i can't they are a part of my tank haha.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

My gut feeling is it isn't potassium, but the plecos.

I suppose we'll see over the next few weeks as you add potassium.


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