# CO2 regulator pressure building up when off...



## gSTiTcH (Feb 21, 2013)

Sounds like a crappy needle valve. Replace that and you'll be alright.


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## Elyssa (Feb 10, 2013)

Hi gSTiTcH,

Thing is I'm not even using the NV at all, it's all the way open. I'm thinking maybe if I did have it closed a bit and some pressure, it would prevent what is happening in the first place when the temperature fluctuates. Any additional pressure rise due to the temp fluctuation would not come pouring out when it's turned on. (?) 

I just don't want to end up blowing the regulator because of too much pressure building up and all that hitting the needle valve when it comes on. How much is to much? When it's running it's at 0 psi and depending on the ambient room temp it goes anywhere from 10-20psi when the temp drops considerably. 

Thanks.


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## Mark Fisher (Dec 29, 2011)

I also have a Milwaukee and it does the same thing--the second gauge creeps up 10-20 psi after the solenoid is off. It's been doing this for several months. I have a large tank so the initial burst of CO2 is not an issue, as it only lasts a few seconds. 

My needle valve is not open all the way. 

Pressure increases with increasing temperature, so I don't think an overnight temperature drop is the issue. A Milwaukee is just not a precise regulator.


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## Elyssa (Feb 10, 2013)

Thanks Mark Fisher,
I remember coming across temperature variation months ago but don't recall the details. It seems like I have had issues when it gets really cold out at night, so from what you say, it's probably happening in the AM when the heat is coming on and the room is warming up.

I guess I should experiment a bit to figure it out. I just don't want to do something ignorant and blow the regulator. I get how it works but just don't know the limitations and don't want to learn that lesson the hard way.

I just got the darn solenoid working correctly and want to get this on a timer. I'm glad I noticed this and got to figure it out. It would of really stunk to have this thing come on when I'm sleeping and realize that the thing has been cranking co2 in and malfunctioning for a couple hours and my poor fish are gasping or worse!

Thanks again.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

my regulator goes up a pound or two.. having a nice regulator helps defeat this
it has a lot i believe to do with a hot solenoid that cools down when its turned off


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## Elyssa (Feb 10, 2013)

HDblazingwolf, does that increase fowl it up when it first goes on or to minimal to effect it? I have the pressure set at 0, as per Milwaukee and but seems like it might just be an issue one way or another.

I just did a w/c and when I went to turn it back on, it bubbled like mad and it went for over a minute and showed no signs of stopping and there wasn't even any back pressure, gauge was still reading 0.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

it should not affect anything. mine goes right back to the preset pressure as soon as its turned on


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## Elyssa (Feb 10, 2013)

What do you have your pressure set at? 

That is one thing I haven't tried is setting the pressure up and then closing the needle valve to regulate the bubble count. 

With your needle valve, how much are you turning it before you see the bubble count slow down. I turn mine 3 complete revolutions and maybe about at 3 1/4-1/2 it starts slowing the bubble count down & not much more it's completely closed. Is that normal? 

Thanks.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

you should never close a needle valve. its a good way to break one, or at least damage it

my psi is around 12 my needle valve is 1.25 turns past on or maybe 2.25

EDIT: i think its 2.25 turns.


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## Elyssa (Feb 10, 2013)

I realize that, when it's putting pressure out, you shouldn't close it. Milwaukee makes the case that you should just use the main regulator knob to set the bubble count up a bit and then just turn it down slightly with the needle valve. But for me to turn it down with the needle valve, it seems like I'm almost getting close to fully closed before it effects it.

I had this thing for a few weeks before I was even comfortable with hooking it up. Much research and reading, because I didn't want to do anything dumb and ruin it before I understood it well enough to be comfortable.

Is there any way to know if the needle valve is shot?


Thanks.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

if the needle valve is not changing much, then ur output pressure needs to be higher.
the needle valve can only regulate the flow produced by the regulator


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## Elyssa (Feb 10, 2013)

I've just had it set to no pressure, needle valve all the way open, use black knob to get the bubble count and forget it(per Milwaukee's tech support). It was fine doing this for the past two months. Then the solenoid starting not shutting off, I cleaned it up, got it working and this is now a new issue with it going nuts every time I plug it in.
thanks.


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## Elyssa (Feb 10, 2013)

Well, it is off and within an hour has raised to 5psi, I will see where it is at in the AM. 

If it goes nuts with bubbling, I'll try to adjust it with the needle valve, if I get close to almost closed, then I'll back off the regulator knob.

I guess all I can do at this point is try and keep poking around and looking for answers.

Thanks for all the feedback, everybody. I'm calling it a night!


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

I've never read Milwaukee's instructions, but you guys are doing it all wrong. 

Step one, unscrew the big black knob on the regulator all the way counter clockwise.

Step two, open the knob on your co2 cylinder. You should note that the high pressure gauge now shows how much pressure is in the cylinder.

Step three, turn the big, black knob one the regulator clockwise until the low pressure gauge reads the amount of working pressure you want to use. In most cases, you will need between 10-30psi.

Step four, turn the knob on the needle valve clockwise until it starts to feel a little snug. Do not turn it until it stops in this direction. You could damage it.

Step five, energize your solenoid.

Step six, now use the needle valve to set the bubble rate you want. If it doesn't reach the Desired rate increase the working pressure on the regulator until you can reach it. You'll also probably notice you'll have a more consistent bubble rate using a higher psi with cheaper needle valves.

Hope this helps someone.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

oldpunk nailed it.


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## Elyssa (Feb 10, 2013)

Thanks OldPunk78,
The big duh, the regulator solenoid needs to be off. It's been a couple of months and I hadn't retained the info & didn't go back to the directions. 

The ONLY confusion comes with the whole set the pressure somewhere between 10-30psi. Milwaukee says "NO WAY". Don't even LOOK at that gauge, have the needle valve 100% open, get up to 80bps using regulator knob and if you want a 60bps, then and only then turn the needle valve to get your 60bps. This was March 2013 via their tech support. 

I'm thinking that the reason they are saying this and changed their original directions, which said to set it at 10psi, is because of all the warranty claims with messed up needle valves and blown gauges. I can imagine how many people actually in trying to tweak with the needle valve, completely shut the needle valve 100% and ruined them. 

Not knowing any better. If I didn't read about regulators for weeks via the forums, and ran across that a lot...don't completely shut the needle valve, I probably would of myself. 

Regardless, I'm going to try to set the pressure to 10PSI and see where it is at tomorrow.

Thanks.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

when u set the pressure at ten. if ur needle valve is wide open. you should get a pretty solid stream of bubbles. much more than you should need


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## Elyssa (Feb 10, 2013)

One more *clueless* question...
When your setting the pressure, do you need to go through the whole procedure of turning the tank off and starting from the beginning. Or can you increase the pressure by just turning the regulator knob, when the solenoid is off. I just set it for 10psi and when I turned it on, it dropped to 5psi (unless I misread...)

I don't have a 110% understanding yet. It seems to me like you should be able to without starting from scratch.


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## Elyssa (Feb 10, 2013)

I unplugged it and it did raise back up to 10psi. Plugged it in, it dropped back down to 5....on a good note...it quickly fell back to the bubble count I had it set to. 

I did turn the needle valve in a bit, as per OldPunk78 instructions.

So, does this mean, I should try to increase the pressure to 15psi? 

Thanks.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

increase it to what makes u feel comfortable and works well for you. i'd set the pressure with the solenoid on this way you will know what it will be when the solenoid turns on every day


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

Elyssa said:


> The ONLY confusion comes with the whole set the pressure somewhere between 10-30psi. Milwaukee says "NO WAY". Don't even LOOK at that gauge, have the needle valve 100% open, get up to 80bps using regulator knob and if you want a 60bps, then and only then turn the needle valve to get your 60bps. This was March 2013 via their tech support.


there is confusion here, I believe it is communication error.
The tech support told you right but detail steps and the reasons behind were missing, that is why a written instruction is really helpful.

I will make a complete bubble rate adjustment instruction.
and check your pm, sent you a system initial setup instruction. The bubble rate adjustment instruction will follow once it is ready.


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## Elyssa (Feb 10, 2013)

oops, meant this to be a PM...but others might find it helpful as well.

Hi Bettatail,
I have 3 sets of written instructions from Milwaukee. None of them have dates on them or revision dates. They ALL are different. This is what really confused me. 

But after digging thru all the paperwork 2 months ago, I realized this woman had purchased (4) regulators over the years. She kept Milwaukee busy with warranty issues and problems. 

In asking on here, people that had bought them years ago, were referring to the older instructions to set the low pressure gauge at 10psi. They are right.

Others that had the newer instructions, were saying they had no pressure and set thru the regulator adjustment knob only, and some just had fine tuned it slightly with the needle valve. They are right, too.

Then I have another print out from Milwaukee on "Trouble Shooting the MA957"...
This one says "The right side gauge is not relevant to adjusting your gas flow. Indeed, we have been trying for several months to get them to take the right side gauge off of the regulator because the bubble counter is your true an accurate gauge. Therefore, any reference to the right side gauge serves no purpose."...."The primary problem for poor flow consistency is that too much gas is backed up behind the needle valve causing the diaphragm in the regulator not to function properly." (from what I understand from what I've been reading...I'm not quite sure about what they are saying with this and if it is indeed factual at all). 

If your interested, I'll scan all these sheets I have from the horses mouth and send them to you. 

After re-visiting all this, these past 10 minutes...oh damn...I really want to have another conversation with tech support over there and this time come to the table with all the facts I've learned from everybody here...especially you and Oldpunk78 that are building custom rigs...

Thanks for sending me the instructions, I appreciate you taking the time.

I hope I've clarified a little bit of all the confusion with the Milwaukee regulators and why us newbies are getting so confused with all the contradictory info. 

When it is the manufacturer that is honoring the warranty, I'm sure one of the first questions they ask is about the right pressure gauge and what you set that to...and oh well, you didn't read the directions...not our problem. You put back pressure on the needle valve and that led to the diaphragm malfunctioning...

And the beat goes on...


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## Mark Fisher (Dec 29, 2011)

I've attached the instructions from my first Milwaukee (sold as "Blue Line") that was purchased for the calcium reactor with my reef tank 10 years ago.

I think they changed the instructions because so many people were blowing out the second gauge when they opened the CO2 cylinder (see step 3 on the attached). 

These instructions are pretty much the same as Oldpunk's instructions. I still follow them.


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## Elyssa (Feb 10, 2013)

Hi Mark Fisher,
Those directions are actually pretty decent and no glaring errors. Is that reg still running?

I have one set that confuses the needle valve/bubble counter:
....
4)Before opening the cylinder valve:
a)Unscrew the large brass ring from the bubble counter
b) At this time, make certain that the needle valve is closed (turned all the way clockwise)
c)*NOW*, the needle valve can be filled half way with water or glycerin (water evaporates & glycerin doesn't). *If the needle valve is filled while there is no gas pressure, the water or glycerin will leak into the solenoid causing permanent damage.*r

I am finding some humor in all of this right now. 

There is a few things I don't understand.

"The primary problem for poor flow consistency is that too much gas is backed up behind the needle valve causing the diaphragm in the regulator not to function properly." 

That statement is the one I got hung up on when I first got this going. I opted because of it, not to set any pressure. 

After much thought, I'm thinking maybe the reason I wasn't having any issues is because the solenoid itself was soaked in glycerin and therefore, when it was closing it was still allowing a small amount of co2 to slip thru. Then I cleaned it all up with alcohol and now it's closing 100% and that is what is causing that increase in pressure.

I don't know, that is the only thing that changed. On a good note, I set it to 20 psi and turned in the needle valve. When I turn it on, it drops to 10 psi, turn it off, it climbs back to 20 psi, but when I turn it back on, it's not pushing out the co2 initially like it was.

I think I'm going to give Milwaukee a call tomorrow and see if they can't clarify a couple of questions I have about actually what is going on.


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## Mark Fisher (Dec 29, 2011)

No, that regulator no longer works. I accidently let the CO2 cylinder run dry, which allowed mineral oil (I used mineral oil instead of glycerin) to seep back into the solenoid. I never could get it to work after that, despite repeated cleaning with compressed air, alcohol, etc.


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## Elyssa (Feb 10, 2013)

I guess that is one good thing about a cheaper regulator. You can learn some lessons the hard way and at least not a super huge layout of $.

Before I invest in a nicer one, I really want to understand all the ins and outs, so I don't have any of those *oh what did I just do* moments. I'll really be able to appreciate what I have and how it performs, as well.

Have a good nite. Thanks for all the feedback.


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## geesantoz (Mar 22, 2013)

Mark Fisher said:


> No, that regulator no longer works. I accidently let the CO2 cylinder run dry, which allowed mineral oil (I used mineral oil instead of glycerin) to seep back into the solenoid. I never could get it to work after that, despite repeated cleaning with compressed air, alcohol, etc.


I might have the same experience with azoo regulator when my toddler around the setup, the co2 liquid may have come to the regulator (tip over) and blows the regulator diaphragm (this is co2 liquid from the tank to the regulator)
i also notice that if liquid can also seep in from the bubble counter when it is off (no pressure from co2).
For now, i put in brass check valve between the bubble counter to the regulator outlet to avoid the water seeping in.
also plan to secure the co2 tank in an enclosed space so that my toddler did not accidentally play -or- tip over the co2 cylinder setup ever again ...


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## geesantoz (Mar 22, 2013)

Elyssa said:


> I guess that is one good thing about a cheaper regulator. You can learn some lessons the hard way and at least not a super huge layout of $.
> 
> Before I invest in a nicer one, I really want to understand all the ins and outs, so I don't have any of those *oh what did I just do* moments. I'll really be able to appreciate what I have and how it performs, as well.
> 
> Have a good nite. Thanks for all the feedback.


The nicer one has an attached bubble counter that has a built-in check-valve to prevent liquid coming in from the needle valve outlet (look at the Greenleaf co2 regulator options).
However there is a catch ... you can't forcefully screwed the bubble counter to the needle valve as it may damage needle valve itself .... 

it's just never stop to learn new thing everyday ... !!! :red_mouth


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

geesantoz said:


> The nicer one has an attached bubble counter that has a built-in check-valve to prevent liquid coming in from the needle valve outlet (look at the Greenleaf co2 regulator options).
> However there is a catch ... you can't forcefully screwed the bubble counter to the needle valve as it may damage needle valve itself ....
> 
> it's just never stop to learn new thing everyday ... !!! :red_mouth


The nicer ones fail too. I just helped someone fix their gla regulator that had the check valves fail.

Even the real high quality stuff gives up after a while. What gets me is that gla it still using a redundant check valve under their new bubble counter that claims:
"Designed with built-in filtration and a no-fail check valve; crafted of CNC aluminum with a modern, slender appearance."

If it's "no-fail" why use two?

Your best bet is too not have a mounted bubble counter.


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## Wwh2694 (Dec 14, 2010)

+1 on Oldpunk. Build-in bubble counters will fail eventually even when they have check valves in them like the GLA. It is much better to use a glass bubble counter away from your regulator or just don't use it at all. You can adjust the co2 by looking at your diffusor and your drop checker. I got use to looking on how my diffusor if its enough co2 or not on that particular tank. Once set you never going to touch it again. The key is looking at your plants and fish not how much bubble it is. Oh on bigger tanks greater that 75g you don't need bubble counter, it will be way to fast for you to count the bubble. And another thing is to use a good metering valve, it is very important to control your co2 precisely.


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## Elyssa (Feb 10, 2013)

oldpunk78 said:


> The nicer ones fail too. I just helped someone fix their gla regulator that had the check valves fail.
> 
> Even the real high quality stuff gives up after a while. What gets me is that gla it still using a redundant check valve under their new bubble counter that claims:
> "Designed with built-in filtration and a no-fail check valve; crafted of CNC aluminum with a modern, slender appearance."
> ...


That is so hilarious, "...with a modern, slender apperance." I guess if your getting off on your rigs, this would definitely be the way to go...lol...

Would it be in the best interest to just empty out the bubble counter &s take it completely off? I've had problems with the solenoid. I got this all used and not quite sure if the woman just didn't close the NV when she put the glycerin in, in the first place.

When I filled it I was 100% sure the NV was closed & it's still at the same level I originally filled it to, two months ago. In about a month, I'm going to take it apart again and see if it's soaked again, if it doesn't start malfunctioning before this. If the B/C is leaking, I'd have no problem going without.

I do watch the plants and fish & dc's.
Thanks.


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## Elyssa (Feb 10, 2013)

geesantoz,
Good idea with getting your system enclosed. If I was looking at this unit as a toddler, I just see it as another great toy. Lots of knobs to play with and discovering the needle valve and bubble counter connection and making those bubbles flow...lots of fun.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

my gla rig has no bubble counter but i had to take the check valve off a long long time ago as the bubble rate was very inconsistent
i no long run check vavles but this is not an issue since its setup so the line has negative pressure when off, the pump is constantly pulling against it so im safe


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## Elyssa (Feb 10, 2013)

My mind just had a major moment of clarity after reading some info the Bettatail sent.

I cannot use my Milwaukee regulator in a welding application. I know, duh, right? So, obvious there is a huge difference in original purposes. So, Milwaukee saying....The right side gauge is not relevant to adjusting your gas flow, this is making sense more now. Now using a regulator built for welding purposes, they are made for the pressure to use it as intended. So, all I've been reading about these Milwaukee's being made cheaply. Well, yeah...all makes perfect sense.

So, on another note....oldpunk78...the regulators your building...can these be used for welding, as well? Oh, I hope you say, yes, definitely. I have a 69' Ghia that I have plans on restoring and the floor panels are all going to need replacing. Lots of welding going to be needed. I could totally justify the $ (with my other half) if I could dual purpose use it. Brilliant!


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Elyssa said:


> My mind just had a major moment of clarity after reading some info the Bettatail sent.
> 
> I cannot use my Milwaukee regulator in a welding application. I know, duh, right? So, obvious there is a huge difference in original purposes. So, Milwaukee saying....The right side gauge is not relevant to adjusting your gas flow, this is making sense more now. Now using a regulator built for welding purposes, they are made for the pressure to use it as intended. So, all I've been reading about these Milwaukee's being made cheaply. Well, yeah...all makes perfect sense.
> 
> So, on another note....oldpunk78...the regulators your building...can these be used for welding, as well? Oh, I hope you say, yes, definitely. I have a 69' Ghia that I have plans on restoring and the floor panels are all going to need replacing. Lots of welding going to be needed. I could totally justify the $ (with my other half) if I could dual purpose use it. Brilliant!


likely not as it will need a different set of internals to accept one or more of the welding gasses used
much less the fact the inlets will probably be a different fitting


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## Elyssa (Feb 10, 2013)

Yeah, just a thought. I still am trying to find a way to justify the expense of a really nice regulator. 

When oldpunk78 had said, "the nicer ones fail too..." 

I'm still to new and don't have enough of an understanding. I would just be horrified if I did something dumb and toasted it. I'm not in a financial position, not to care...

Bettatail had mentioned...

"the 20 psi when solenoid off and 10 psi when solenoid on, there are two possible reasons,
1. the flow rate at the needle valve is large than the regulator internal flow rate, that is why you see output pressure drop from 20 psi to whatever, but more than likely it is not the case here, because that require a very large flow rate at the needle valve, much more than the designated co2 injection amount;
2. the quality of the regulator, the poppet valve doesn't seal well. The designated output pressure is 10 psi when the solenoid is on, but when the solenoid off, the output pressure slowly rise because the slow internal poppet valve leak. until the output pressure rise to a certain point(20 psi in this case), force on the diaphragm is strong enough to pull the poppet valve completely close, internal leak stop and pressure stay(at 20 psi)
This rise is not acceptable because a regulator's job is to keep the output pressure at a certain point no matter the output flow open or close."-Excerpt from Betta Tail

When I really get all the ins and outs of "how it works", then down the road when it is necessary to replace what I have. I will want something nice. I would even consider stainless steel. As it would be a long-long term investment.

I hate this buy cheap and just keep replacing mentality. Most things I buy these days are high quality vintage...real wood, real metal and built to last...

The only reason I have these Milwaukee Regulators, is because at the time I was searching for a deal on lights, I found a complete package deal & got major hooked up with everything to start high tech. The lady ended up giving me 2 of everything, & unloaded everything fish related she had on me. I'm happy to say that every one of her fish family survived the transition...& that was really her only concern. Win-win... If I purchased the reg. separately...I would of followed what the majority of people say...buy quality to begin with.


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