# How long can a substrate last?



## Liquidgarden (Sep 24, 2018)

I am new to planted tanks and wanted to know just how long a substrate can last. I read an article by "Edward" (of pps systems). He states that plants can go into just gravel and that good fertilizer put into the water will be all that is needed. Others seem to think that plants need soil of some form for the roots.
Don't soil mixes break down and turn to "mud" after a few years and then have to be replaced?


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## tamsin (Jan 12, 2011)

You can plant into plain gravel, a fine gravel makes it easier - it's more a case if ease of holding them down long enough to room. The downside with that is you need to keep up with your water column fertilising as the gravel has no nutrients. You can use root tabs too though.

Other soil, it depends, some will break down, others last years - breaking down is often not an issue unless you disturb it. Soil will have nutrients to start with but it can also often pull and store them from the water column. Again you can add root tabs to maintain nutrients over time too.

Which is best really just depends what you want to grow, how long you want it to last, whether you will remember to dose regularly and how you want it to look.


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## Liquidgarden (Sep 24, 2018)

tamsin said:


> You can plant into plain gravel, a fine gravel makes it easier - it's more a case if ease of holding them down long enough to room. The downside with that is you need to keep up with your water column fertilising as the gravel has no nutrients. You can use root tabs too though.
> 
> Other soil, it depends, some will break down, others last years - breaking down is often not an issue unless you disturb it. Soil will have nutrients to start with but it can also often pull and store them from the water column. Again you can add root tabs to maintain nutrients over time too.
> 
> Which is best really just depends what you want to grow, how long you want it to last, whether you will remember to dose regularly and how you want it to look.


Thank you for your reply. I have learned so much from you folks on this site since joining a week ago. It's very much appreciated.

I will be setting up a 250 gallon and don't really want to have to change the bottom out once its all set up. I don't understand why anyone would want to put something on the bottom of an aquarium that would have to be eventually taken out or left in to create other problems down the line. 
Are there any drawbacks to any type of plants if just gravel is used if the fertilizer is maintained?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Liquidgarden said:


> I will be setting up a 250 gallon and don't really want to have to change the bottom out once its all set up. I don't understand why anyone would want to put something on the bottom of an aquarium that would have to be eventually taken out or left in to create other problems down the line.
> Are there any drawbacks to any type of plants if just gravel is used if the fertilizer is maintained?


I agree with you, active substrates scare me. 

Quite a few here are using BDBS. Inert, great color, easy to plant in.......and cheap.

I have seen no limitations as to plant selection with it.


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## tamsin (Jan 12, 2011)

Liquidgarden said:


> I will be setting up a 250 gallon and don't really want to have to change the bottom out once its all set up. I don't understand why anyone would want to put something on the bottom of an aquarium that would have to be eventually taken out or left in to create other problems down the line. Are there any drawbacks to any type of plants if just gravel is used if the fertilizer is maintained?



It's not necessarily that you'd need to take it out or that left it would create problems, it's that some breaks down into fine powder that can make a mess if you go back and start pulling out and rearranging plants later and you can't reuse it in a new tank. 



Heavy root feeders like swords and crypts benefit most from enriched substrates, but again, you can just stick root tabs under them.



I would guess you're going to aim for the easy to care for low tech plants and they'll be just fine in gravel.


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## Liquidgarden (Sep 24, 2018)

Greggz said:


> I agree with you, active substrates scare me.
> 
> Quite a few here are using BDBS. Inert, great color, easy to plant in.......and cheap.
> 
> I have seen no limitations as to plant selection with it.


That is great news!
I'm assuming you are talking about the high tech plants as well? Eventually, I would want to change out and put more challenging and diverse plants as I learn and develop the skills needed to keep them. I will use the fast growing ones in the beginning to stave off algae growth but look forward to keeping more challenging plants eventually.

Coming from the reef world I like consistency and the ability to control and know what is happening with the nutrient/fertilizer, kH, pH (and CO2) levels in the system. From what I have read/heard so far is that soil is finite, with each brand having their own unique cycle that affects the nutrients and KH, softens, hardens, etc. It has a limited time where it works great then wanes, changing these values in the process.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Liquidgarden said:


> That is great news!
> I'm assuming you are talking about the high tech plants as well?


Yes, high tech plants as well.

BDBS is inert, so you don't have any of the issues you mentioned. 

If you want to see some tanks with it, you can look in my journal, or find the journals below, just to mention a few (and sorry if I left anybody out, these were the latest ones to update their threads).

@burr740, @slipfinger, @OreoP, @Grobbins48


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Liquidgarden said:


> I will be setting up a 250 gallon and don't really want to have to change the bottom out once its all set up.


 Be strong, the first three months are going to be painful. It’s not like having to clean 10 gallon box. This is huge and every little change will require lots of attention. 

Set everything right from the beginning, threat it as fully planted and running at the maximum speed, except for light photoperiod. Setting the light is critical, light energy to planted aquarium is what gas pedal is to a car. 

For 250 gallon aquarium where height is 24” plus, I would use 2 x 250W metal halide. You mentioned you had reef before so you probably have some spare MH fixtures. I use 10K 250W MH HQI over 125 gallon 24” high. The reason for using these is to get the light all the way to the bottom. And because of the very high intensities the photoperiod needs to be shorter, about 5 to 7 hours a day. At the beginning 5 hours a day. 

As I mentioned above, the first two three months you will need lots of snails, I prefer red Ramshorn snails because they are nice looking, do spectacular job and self-regulate population. Also, I would not use any organic decorations like wood, roots and so on and no large fish load until all algae go away. 

For CO2 you will need a flow meter RMA-150-SSV, more here. 



Greggz said:


> I agree with you, active substrates scare me.


+1


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

I am using Black Diamond blasting grit (medium grain) with Controsoil. I was using the Black Diamond and root tabs originally, along with water column dosing. I switched over to Controsoil to eliminate the need for root tabs and continued water column dosing and I love it. The Controsoil is active, but I don't use RO water with it so the KH is buffered by only about 1 degree (4 dKH tap, 3 dKH tank), which is probably why it hasn't effected pH in my tank. However I can tell you that it does provide nutrients very well, even with it being "mixed" (it was capped, but pulling and planting has mixed it up a bit, no big deal). All of my plants with roots in the substrate, stems and rosettes alike, have all done better with it, and it does have decent CEC properties to it, in that it absorbs nutrients and some GH from the water column, and provides it to plant roots.

I have seen people grow plants very well, even carpets, in straight up Black Diamond without any sort of soil. In a tank that size, it would be a very economical option for you. The medium grit doesn't compact and water flows through it well, which means good nutrients to the roots. Add in some MTS and it's golden, imo.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

BDBS is a very good option.

Use a lot of plants to start this tank.
Make sure they are also all submerged growth, don't want emersed stems rotting as they transition to submerged.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Use a lot of plants to start this tank.


 Absolutely, and it doesn’t have to be expensive. Start with fast growing stems as they can spread to more plants by replanting tops in no time. Remember, there is not enough plants if you can see the substrate.


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## Liquidgarden (Sep 24, 2018)

Hello Edward,

Thank you so much for your reply. It is filled with great information.

I was thinking of using grafted plants to avoid any nuisance snails getting into the tank. I would like to put the red trumpet snails you recommended. How many would I need at the start? I know they multiply although, I think I need quite a few during the first few months. What other clean up crew would you recommend?

The tank is a 250 gal deep dimension with overflows. 
I haven't cycled a tank in a long time. 
I will be using a sump with 100um filter socks going to 10 liters of Sera siporax.
I bought a Mazzei venturi to inject CO2. I will be using a Pinpoint pH controller. I was planning on injecting the CO2 into the sump before the return pump.
Would it be beneficial to I install a bubble trap in the sump (after the venturi, before the return pump)? I don't know if there will be a lot of microbubbles.

I wanted to use LED lighting this time around. I was looking at Aqua ray products. They seem to be the most energy efficient and deliver the best power to lumen ratio although I haven't done a lot of research as of yet. I want to make sure that I get enough light to the bottom as I want to grow carpeting plants and more high tech plants in the future.

I was going to use the PPS system as far as organics. On the inorganic side I measured my well water and got the following info:

GH = 4-5
KH = 2 I was going to raise this to 5 KH with sodium bicarbonate. 
pH = 7.5 (after aeration) 5.7 out of the ground.
Are there any other levels I should be concerned about?

What kind of gravel do you use? I was thinking of using flourite gravel from Seachem. It looks like many are using BDBS. The flourite sounds like it soaks up nutrients for the roots.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Liquidgarden said:


> What kind of gravel do you use? I was thinking of using flourite gravel from Seachem. It looks like many are using BDBS. The flourite sounds like it soaks up nutrients for the roots.


Flourite's CEC rating is so low it is almost inert.


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## Liquidgarden (Sep 24, 2018)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Flourite's CEC rating is so low it is almost inert.


How does this equate as to being good or bad for plants and nutrients? It sounds like it doesn't break down although, does it retain nutrients that are put into the water so it can be taken up by the roots. I'm trying to stay away from using soil as a substrate.

Bump:


Maryland Guppy said:


> Flourite's CEC rating is so low it is almost inert.





Edward said:


> Be strong, the first three months are going to be painful. It’s not like having to clean 10 gallon box. This is huge and every little change will require lots of attention.
> 
> Set everything right from the beginning, threat it as fully planted and running at the maximum speed, except for light photoperiod. Setting the light is critical, light energy to planted aquarium is what gas pedal is to a car.
> 
> ...


Hello Edward,

Thank you so much for your reply. It is filled with great information.

I was thinking of using grafted plants to avoid any nuisance snails getting into the tank. I would like to put the red trumpet snails you recommended. How many would I need at the start? I know they multiply although, I think I need quite a few during the first few months. What other clean up crew would you recommend?

The tank is a 250 gal deep dimension with overflows. 
I haven't cycled a tank in a long time. 
I will be using a sump with 100um filter socks going to 10 liters of Sera siporax.
I bought a Mazzei venturi to inject CO2. I will be using a Pinpoint pH controller. I was planning on injecting the CO2 into the sump before the return pump.
Would it be beneficial to I install a bubble trap in the sump (after the venturi, before the return pump)? I don't know if there will be a lot of microbubbles.

I wanted to use LED lighting this time around. I was looking at Aqua ray products. They seem to be the most energy efficient and deliver the best power to lumen ratio although I haven't done a lot of research as of yet. I want to make sure that I get enough light to the bottom as I want to grow carpeting plants and more high tech plants in the future.

I was going to use the PPS system as far as organics. On the inorganic side I measured my well water and got the following info:

GH = 4-5
KH = 2 I was going to raise this to 5 KH with sodium bicarbonate. 
pH = 7.5 (after aeration) 5.7 out of the ground.
Iron = 0.66 ppm is this too high?
Silicates = 20 ppm is this too high can this cause diatoms?
Are there any other levels I should be concerned about?

What kind of gravel do you use? I was thinking of using flourite gravel from Seachem. It looks like many are using BDBS. The flourite sounds like it soaks up nutrients for the roots.


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## Liquidgarden (Sep 24, 2018)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Flourite's CEC rating is so low it is almost inert.





Edward said:


> Be strong, the first three months are going to be painful. It’s not like having to clean 10 gallon box. This is huge and every little change will require lots of attention.
> 
> Set everything right from the beginning, threat it as fully planted and running at the maximum speed, except for light photoperiod. Setting the light is critical, light energy to planted aquarium is what gas pedal is to a car.
> 
> ...


Hello Edward,

Thank you so much for your reply. It is filled with great information.

I was thinking of using grafted plants to avoid any nuisance snails getting into the tank. I would like to put the red trumpet snails you recommended. How many would I need at the start? I know they multiply although, I think I need quite a few during the first few months. What other clean up crew would you recommend?

The tank is a 250 gal deep dimension with overflows. 
I haven't cycled a tank in a long time. 
I will be using a sump with 100um filter socks going to 10 liters of Sera siporax.
I bought a Mazzei venturi to inject CO2. I will be using a Pinpoint pH controller. I was planning on injecting the CO2 into the sump before the return pump.
Would it be beneficial to I install a bubble trap in the sump (after the venturi, before the return pump)? I don't know if there will be a lot of microbubbles.

I wanted to use LED lighting this time around. I was looking at Aqua ray products. They seem to be the most energy efficient and deliver the best power to lumen ratio although I haven't done a lot of research as of yet. I want to make sure that I get enough light to the bottom as I want to grow carpeting plants and more high tech plants in the future.

I was going to use the PPS system as far as organics. On the inorganic side I measured my well water and got the following info:

GH = 4-5
KH = 2 I was going to raise this to 5 KH with sodium bicarbonate. 
pH = 7.5 (after aeration) 5.7 out of the ground.
Iron = 0.66 ppm is this too high?
Silicates = 6 ppm is this too high can this cause diatoms? **I made a mess of trying to correct this value on previous replies, sorry! I'm getting used to editing on this site
Are there any other levels I should be concerned about?

What kind of gravel do you use? I was thinking of using flourite gravel from Seachem. It looks like many are using BDBS. The flourite sounds like it soaks up nutrients for the roots.


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## Liquidgarden (Sep 24, 2018)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Flourite's CEC rating is so low it is almost inert.


Sorry for the messed up reply. I'm getting used to editing on this site and have been having intermittent trouble posting. It bumps me off sometimes, it's frustrating.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Liquidgarden said:


> I would like to put the red trumpet snails you recommended. How many would I need at the start? I know they multiply although, I think I need quite a few during the first few months. What other clean up crew would you recommend?


 I said I use red Ramshorn snails, not trumpet. You don’t need to get many, they will multiply as needed. Getting just two or three will do the trick.


> The tank is a 250 gal deep dimension with overflows.


 How deep is it?


> I will be using a sump with 100um filter socks going to 10 liters of Sera siporax.
> I bought a Mazzei venturi to inject CO2. I will be using a Pinpoint pH controller. I was planning on injecting the CO2 into the sump before the return pump.
> Would it be beneficial to I install a bubble trap in the sump (after the venturi, before the return pump)? I don't know if there will be a lot of microbubbles.


 Sumps and overflows degas CO2 too much. 


> I wanted to use LED lighting this time around. I was looking at Aqua ray products. They seem to be the most energy efficient and deliver the best power to lumen ratio although I haven't done a lot of research as of yet. I want to make sure that I get enough light to the bottom as I want to grow carpeting plants and more high tech plants in the future.


 Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Light Calculator


> On the inorganic side I measured my well water and got the following info:
> 
> GH = 4-5
> KH = 2 I was going to raise this to 5 KH with sodium bicarbonate.
> ...


 The GH of 4 – 5 degrees is perfect, you just need to know how much is Ca and Mg. Having 2 dKH is also excellent, I would not add more. And pH doesn’t matter much, it is a result of KH. You should get a cheap TDS tester to monitor water conductivity.


> What kind of gravel do you use? I was thinking of using flourite gravel from Seachem. It looks like many are using BDBS. The flourite sounds like it soaks up nutrients for the roots.


 Inert is the law.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Liquidgarden said:


> I'm trying to stay away from using soil as a substrate.


I'm not suggesting to use soil.
Only pointing out that Flourite is pretty much an inert substrate and there is nothing wrong with that.
BDBS is also inert and will not hurt the wallet.

Many will have substrate preferences over time, part of learning.
IMHO those just starting out should not use soil.
There is so much to learn growing plants, fertilizing technique, water quality/parameters, adequate lighting, and so on.

Award winning tanks have been constructed with simple, cheap, inert substrates.

As to the longevity of an inert substrate, it could be indefinite.
Over time the substrate will become loaded with a little bit of everything.
Tank maintenance with a siphon/vacuum can keep this in check.


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## iMacg3 (May 16, 2018)

Greggz said:


> I agree with you, active substrates scare me.


+2. I almost always use inert substrate. 

I would not start out using an active substrate...too much risk involved. 

For how long an inert substrate can last - a long time, it depends on the type of substrate, how often you clean the tank, etc.


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## Liquidgarden (Sep 24, 2018)

Sumps and overflows degas CO2 too much.

Do you feel that outgassing can be brought to a manageable level by keeping my tank covered and sump covered? I really didn't want to have to change out the aquarium and sump if I can avoid it.

Bump: How deep is it?

My tank is 24" deep.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

Liquidgarden said:


> Hello Edward,
> 
> Thank you so much for your reply. It is filled with great information.
> 
> ...


While not quite as large, I use a sump on my 120g, and I seem to have mastered not gassing off CO2 (long story). 

What system are you planning on using? Herbie? Bean animal? Fine tuning your drains to run as silently as possible, in essence, reduces the amount of turbulence/air going down the pipes which reduces a lot of potential CO2 loss. 

A couple of tips:
Set your drain pipes up in your overflows so that the spill is as minimal as possible (I have a Marineland RR 120g). My overflow drops maybe an inch at most. 
Second, by extending your drains deep into your sump you can minimize microbubbles and degassing of CO2. I don't have my sump sealed, and I have had no issues getting my CO2 up quite high. I have almost no splashing in my sump. Keeping your water levels correct helps too. 
Lastly, I have my output from my CO2 reactor (I use a cerges) right before my return pump, and aside from occasional microbubbles in the display tank when the reactor burps, I really rarely see microbubbles. My diffusion rate has been very high between the cerges and the return pump taking care of the rest.

I somewhat disagree with the notion that a sump degasses CO2 too much. While it may take my tank a bit longer to reach peak CO2 levels, CO2 is cheap, and a sump, to me, makes tank husbandry much easier.

Here's a pic of my sump ATM. The water level needs to be raised slightly, but the water agitation is kept to minimum. The sump walls, even right above the water level, are bone dry since the water isn't splashing when it enters the tank or moves over my baffle. (Apologies for the dark picture, the inside of my stand is black and my tank lights are out):


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## Liquidgarden (Sep 24, 2018)

Little Soprano said:


> While not quite as large, I use a sump on my 120g, and I seem to have mastered not gassing off CO2 (long story).
> 
> What system are you planning on using? Herbie? Bean animal? Fine tuning your drains to run as silently as possible, in essence, reduces the amount of turbulence/air going down the pipes which reduces a lot of potential CO2 loss.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your reply. I was hoping to hear from someone that is using sumps/overflows and injecting CO2. Thanks for weighing in. I was starting to wonder.

If I'm not mistaken the sump paradigm seems to be kinda new in the freshwater planted tank world. I don't like canisters and feel they are a pain to deal with. I like the idea of being able to empty filter socks frequently and get the pollutants out of the system quickly instead of letting it mineralize. Keeping equipment below and out of the display tank appeals to me. It makes tinkering and swapping out equipment easy. The easier it is to do the more likely it will get done.

Do you cover your tank or sump? I would like to start by leaving them open you think that's an option as far as CO2 outgassing.

I have a Marineland DD: 60 x 36 x 24 high. It has a second or third generation overflow configuration that marineland used in the build 5 years ago, very quite and not much turbulence. As far as reducing turbulence in the sump - I have "Sock it" sock holders which have a telescoping pipe arrangement, allowing the water to the sump (from the overflow) to be directed as low as desired into the sock. 

I'm sure the overflow/sump arrangement insure that there is plenty of dissolved O2! 

Are you familiar with bubble traps? They definitely get rid of microbubbles. My concern is that it will cause a drop in dissolved CO2 in the water column although, I'm hoping that is not the case. I guess I'm gonna find out . I will be using a Mazzei 784 injector with a flow meter supplying CO2. From my research it looks like it should be able to handle the demand on a 250 gal system (They usually sell these for ozone injection into hot tubs). 

I believe I pretty much now have all my ducks in a row as far as the build, aside from lighting. The folks here have been great! I hope I can give back to the community, if I can get my tank to thrive and get some solid information from it. 

I want use LED's this time around and was looking for something suitable for punching through to the 24" bottom of the tank. I would like to use more of a vast array over the top as opposed to a Kessil type. I had metal halide on my old system and want to avoid a point source this time...less shadowing. I keep going back to the Aqua ray site but haven't heard too much about them from actual users.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

I've never even owned a canister haha. HOBs or sumps. 

My sump is not covered but my tank does have glass lids on it. I seem to have made it so I don't have a lot of dissolved O2. (I had an issue last weekend where I nearly gassed my new fish from my CO2 levels.) As far as optimizing for CO2, I seem to have accomplished that with a sump. I don't think it really makes that big of a difference unless you were utilizing a wet/dry compartment. My sump almost works like a gigantic HOB filter. Only reason for the glass lids is to reduce splash up to the lights over the display tank.

I will never go back to any other sort of filter regardless of tank size. Both with SW and FW, to me, sumps make maintenance so much easier. Plus you get extra water volume that helps in stabilizing the system as well. I do not use filter socks, although I would like too. My sump is a very simple three compartment design. One for the drains from the tank, a filtration compartment, and a compartment for my return pump. My heater was too long to fit in my sump so I shoved it in the overflow box. 

My tank is a relatively new Marineland tank (I want to say 2014?), but I didn't utilize any of the plumbing they sent me aside from the loc line for my return. I utilized both drilled holes (the 120 only comes with a single overflow) for my drains, and then I have a hard pvc line running up and over the top of the tank for my return.

This is how I originally set up the sump, but since then I've extended my main drain so the water exits about 8-10" below the water line. I also have a small pump (Tunze 150gph/200gph something) that runs my cerges reactor. It does bypass my filter compartment, but it hasn't made anything dirtier in the display. This outputs right under neath my filter media, which forces the bubbles down and under the baffle right to my return pump. Only micro bubbles I witness in the tank is from the CO2 burps the reactor does every once in a blue moon. I haven't found a need for a bubble trap. 









Overflow:









Kind of weird seeing my old regulator in that picture that came standard with a flow meter. If only I could find it to use on my tank now!


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Flourite's CEC rating is so low it is almost inert.





Liquidgarden said:


> How does this equate as to being good or bad for plants and nutrients? It sounds like it doesn't break down although, does it retain nutrients that are put into the water so it can be taken up by the roots. I'm trying to stay away from using soil as a substrate.


The CEC (cation exchange capacity) is the soils ability to hold nutrients so they can be used later. As Maryland Guppy point out, Flourite's is quite low. Just conjecture on my part, but I think the CEC with flourite improves with age. I don't think it's the flourite though, it's all the mulm that it can trap and hold. 
After having tanks with flourite and with BDBS I'll never use flourite again. BDBS is so much easier for me to plant in initially and the plants stay put. With flourite I seem to have to replant everything several times as they are always coming loose and floating.


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## Marko_Sp (Jun 5, 2010)

I have Flourite black in my 125g for almost 9 years. Only plant that looses power is Cryptocoryne nevillii, other like C. parva, Eleocharis, Marsilea, Hemianthus - HC and MC are not affected. I never did fertilization with tabs, only PPS-pro. I have to say that I had ground heater - only for water circulation through the substrate, but after years, it is dead.
I didn't have problems with planting, it holds well.


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