# No Water Change Aquarium



## MultiTankGuy

Hello TPT...


A poster has asked that I post the information for a fish tank that requires no water changes. I can't take credit for this tank, but it works. The information is essentially from a book by D Crosby Johnson. I'll post the items needed and go from there. The items can be picked up at most Thrift Stores or if you've kept fish tanks in the past, you may have them already. Here's the list:

*No Water Change Aquarium *


20 Gallon fish tank
Dual sponge filter from an established tank 
Two outlet air pump
Tank heater
Air stone
Two bamboo sticks the width of the tank
Four plastic twist ties
Plastic "Spa" basket with holes
Plastic aquarium tubing
5 or 6 medium sized rocks 
Desk lamp
60 watt bulb
Pot of Chinese Evergreen house plant
Small bag of landscaping lava rock
Gallon of Distilled or Reverse Osmosis water
Some means of cutting a hole in the bottom of the plastic basket

M


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## powderwt

Is there pics? Would love to see them.

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## houseofcards

MultiTankGuy said:


> ...
> 
> A poster has asked that I post the information for a fish tank that requires no water changes.


Why can't he/she post it?


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## jeffkrol

Yes Nitrate "sponge" terrestrial plants will suck up the excess Nitrates.. About the only thing that is an issue..
Problem for most people is adding a secondary light for them

Aquatics are horrible at removing nitrates..

an anaerobic sump or lots of Nitrate specific resins will do the same..

Thanks though, Am doing a "Pothos" experiment w/ my 55ATM...


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## MultiTankGuy

powder...

Attached is a picture of a completed tank. Hopefully, you can see it by clicking on the site below.

M

https://imgur.com/a/pMILGfM

Bump: house...

I posted the list, because the person asked about information on this "Terraphyte" tank.

M


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## powderwt

I dig it. What size air pump do you have running both of those?

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## OVT

Why not put it ouside in the rain


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## SeaBee1

To all: I am the poster that M was referring to, he did not want to clog my thread on my low tech planned tank. M, thanks for posting this! That is a very interesting setup. I had never considered terrestrial plants as a nitrate "getter". Now that I see what you did, it makes complete sense. I think I saw another setup where the aquarist used "egg crate" to suspend the plants. I think it is a neat thing that this cat can be skinned in a variety of ways.

My wife loves plants of all kinds, and since she is driving this project, I will show her the pic of your setup and get her feedback...

Many thanks!

CB


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## MultiTankGuy

powder...

This is a 38 gallon tank in the picture. So, I figured I needed twice the filtration as the 20 gallon sample I posted. The air pump has two outlets and is rated for a 60 gallon tank. This is a Goldfish tank and Goldfish need the added aeration.

M


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## powderwt

MultiTankGuy said:


> powder...
> 
> This is a 38 gallon tank in the picture. So, I figured I needed twice the filtration as the 20 gallon sample I posted. The air pump has two outlets and is rated for a 60 gallon tank. This is a Goldfish tank and Goldfish need the added aeration.
> 
> M


Ohhhh ok. Idk why I was thinking this was a 20g tank for some reason. 

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## ac0xr

Thanks for posting this, I'd like to try a terraphyte-type tank at some point.

One question if you don't mind... What is the plant in the tank in your avatar?


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## MultiTankGuy

powder...

I have a 20 gallon tank with a similar set up, and the 20 G is the sample I used in the post. I was trying to show how the set up looks. Let me know if you have other questions.

M


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## dukydaf

If the room has enough light a young willow or reed will get all available N really fast. Floating plants like Pistia will behave better if you cannot lift the light so far above the tank. 

However, just something to think about. We can measure nitrate, nitrite, ammonia, but are these the only things that accumulate in aquariums with high bioload and rare water changes ? Just because plant remove NPK (nutrients) does not mean the aquarium should be no maintenance.


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## SeaBee1

Well... I showed my wife some pictures of "Teraphyte" tank setups... she was quick to inform me that it was something that would have to "grow" on her :icon_neut so... jury is still out...


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## MultiTankGuy

ac...

Apologies for not getting back to you sooner! The plant is an Aglaonema or Chinese evergreen. There are two species in the photo. One is a Gemini and the other is called Cutlass. 

M

Bump: TPT...

Is anyone interested in the steps for putting together the "Terraphyte" tank? Or, are we still getting the pieces together? Just give me the word, and we can take the next steps. I posted a photo earlier of the completed tank, but I can send others.

M

Bump: duk...

The tank runs on no water changes because the fish are fed a balanced diet that helps them replenish the trace minerals. The mineral content stays steady, because we only top off the tank with distilled or Reverse Osmosis water. This water doesn't add minerals, so there's never a build of these elements. The tank water stays balanced.

M


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## Quagulator

MultiTankGuy said:


> The tank runs on no water changes because the fish are fed a balanced diet that helps them replenish the trace minerals. The mineral content stays steady, because we only top off the tank with distilled or Reverse Osmosis water. This water doesn't add minerals, so there's never a build of these elements. The tank water stays balanced.
> 
> M


What about hormones / toxins / pheromones that plants and fish and bacteria produce? Other organic compounds that we cannot test / measure? Water changes will help reduce those. Just because we aren't adding or removing anything to the tank dose not mean there isn't build ups of certain compounds.

I have nothing against a "limited water change" tank, I do have an issue with a 0 maintenance tank. We simply cannot keep "nature" inside a glass box, what we can do is provide artificial necessities for life.


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## AbbeysDad

It's always good to leverage plants (and/or other media) to aid in water purification. Having 'said' that, I don't quite see the 'no water change' mind set. Routine partial water changes are so simple and easy to do and provide the best way to maintain a healthy, 'fresh' water chemistry - like rain in nature.

Abbey has rabbits and their pens need daily cleaning. I have a fenced in yard with a dog and periodically need to pooper scoop the lawn. I have fish and do weekly partial water changes.

"I don't have time". "Buckets are too hard to lift". "I want low maintenance". 

To these, I suggest a wall mounted picture of a well planted aquarium! When visitors ask, "This is my low/no maintenance aquarium. All I do is dust once every month or two." <G>

_*Now that I think of it, all fishkeepers should have a no maintenance aquarium blown up picture of a perfect tank on the wall - no fishroom should be without at least one!!!*_


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## houseofcards

Seems like a lot to give up to avoid simple water changes. You have this large container blocking a good portion of the tank which becomes a "dead spot" of sorts.

It seems to me these tanks are more about the the emersed plants and keeping a few fish alive in the tank.


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## MultiTankGuy

Q...

All the "Terraphyte" tank requires to be healthy is a stable water chemistry. This essentially means no traces of ammonia or nitrite and a low level of nitrates, ideally in the 20 to 40 ppm range. The bare roots of the Chinese evergreen house plant maintains clean water conditions by taking in all forms of nitrogen as soon as the fish produce them. A small colony of bacteria takes over the job of nitrogen reduction during the night hours when the house plant rests and I provide a varied food source. This will maintain fish and plants indefinitely. I ran a "Terraphyte" tank for more than three years with no problems and the Fancy Guppies I was breeding at the time, remained healthy and produced healthy fry. The only maintenance I performed was plant maintenance. As the plant grows, you have to remove old, spent leaves just like you would any other house plant. Periodic trimming of the leaves stimulates plant growth.

M


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## ac0xr

MultiTankGuy said:


> ac...
> 
> Apologies for not getting back to you sooner! The plant is an Aglaonema or Chinese evergreen. There are two species in the photo. One is a Gemini and the other is called Cutlass.
> 
> M


No problem, thanks for the reply! I didn't realize there were multiple species of Chinese evergreen.

I for one would like to see the steps and pictures.


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## Quagulator

The amount / length / intensity of many many many threads all defending the immense cons of a no maintenance tank should be clear evidence it is in a niche. I am baffled as to how often people have to defend these setups, when was the last time we had to defend doing a water change?


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## OVT

The OP is on defensive because of the number and intensity of the "change the water already" posts.

His tank, his fish, his house plant, his religion - I respect that. As long as his dog does not poop in my back yard I'm not going to beat him over the head with a shovel.


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## IntotheWRX

MultiTankGuy said:


> ac...
> 
> The tank runs on no water changes because the fish are fed a balanced diet that helps them replenish the trace minerals. The mineral content stays steady, because we only top off the tank with distilled or Reverse Osmosis water. This water doesn't add minerals, so there's never a build of these elements. The tank water stays balanced.
> 
> M


It is not that simple. You're underestimating nature. 

Your water will turn bad eventually I promise you that. 

But keep us updated on your journey. I too was on the quest of the least amount of water changes I could get away with. I pushed my boundaries to once every 2 months. I have heard once a year being done. 

Lets see what you get.


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## jeffkrol

you know for the most part the worst thing would be an accumulation of heavy metals..
most organics should digest out

https://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+7971+33087&pcatid=33087


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## MultiTankGuy

Q...

This is simply an interesting and one of many ways one can keep aquatic fish and plants alive and thriving. The book by D Crosby Johnson is really fascinating. He runs a 150 gallon aquarium on this Terraphyte" system he perfected quite a few years ago. I keep similar tanks, but I run mine differently. I've kept the no water change tanks, but when you have several large tanks, you really can't afford the cost of the distilled or RO water needed to keep the tanks full.

It's just a fun and interesting change from the standard means of tank keeping.

M


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## MultiTankGuy

Into...

If you cover the basics needed for good water quality, the tank will run without the need for water changes. For the aquarium to be healthy, you need to convert the waste material the fish produce into a form that the plant can use and have a plant with a root system large enough to take in all forms of nitrogen as soon as the fish produce it. The Aglaonema (Chinese evergreen) is that plant. Others, like pothos, nephthytis, philodendron and some others won't work because the root system is too small. Nitrogen will build up and foul the tank water. You need a constant source of oxygen to the plant roots and to support the bacteria colony when the plant rests at night. Any carbon dioxide produced by the bacteria is lost by agitating the surface water. The fish are fed a balanced diet and replenish the nutrients the plant uses. It's the same as in nature. The streams are maintained by pure water rains and we maintain the tank with pure water in the form of distilled or RO water.

M


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## IntotheWRX

MultiTankGuy said:


> Into...
> 
> If you cover the basics needed for good water quality, the tank will run without the need for water changes. For the aquarium to be healthy, you need to convert the waste material the fish produce into a form that the plant can use and have a plant with a root system large enough to take in all forms of nitrogen as soon as the fish produce it. The Aglaonema (Chinese evergreen) is that plant. Others, like pothos, nephthytis, philodendron and some others won't work because the root system is too small. Nitrogen will build up and foul the tank water. You need a constant source of oxygen to the plant roots and to support the bacteria colony when the plant rests at night. Any carbon dioxide produced by the bacteria is lost by agitating the surface water. The fish are fed a balanced diet and replenish the nutrients the plant uses. It's the same as in nature. The streams are maintained by pure water rains and we maintain the tank with pure water in the form of distilled or RO water.
> 
> M


have fun with it and let us know how it does.


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## Quagulator

Streams in nature are one giant never ending water change. New water is constantly replacing old water, if that is the theory being a no water change tank, we would need to be changing water with a drip system, constantly flushing old water while being replaced by new water. 

The streams will eventually feed a lake / pond (which would be a "better" comparison to a glass box) where the plant + fish population : water volume is magnitudes less than in a glass box, diluting harmful compounds to points at which are non-harmful.


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## MultiTankGuy

Hello again TPT...

i'll go into the set up steps right away. There's a photo of the tank on this thread that i posted earlier. So, if you have the pieces, you can look at the photo and see how things go together. But, I'll go through the steps anyway.

M


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## MultiTankGuy

TPT...

Here are the steps for setting up the tank:

The most difficult part of the setup is cutting a hole in the bottom of the plastic basket. The hole should be close to the size of the root ball on the plant. To get the plant ready, you’ll need to rinse all the potting soil from the plant roots. You can’t leave any, because the plant roots will die from lack of oxygen. Once the potting soil is gone, decide how large to make the hole in the basket. Put the plant roots in some water until you’re ready to place it in the tank. 

The rest of the tank setup is simple. Set up the tank on its stand and make sure the stand is heavy enough to support the 200 or so pounds of water and tank equipment and room on the stand for the light and the air pump. Start with the equipment that goes on the bottom of the tank. Attach the air stone to a length of plastic tubing and positioned it in the middle of the bottom of the tank. Pile rocks on top of the air stone to keep it in place and attached the other end of the tube to one of the outlets on the air pump. Place the heater on the opposite side of the filter. Fill the tank about half full with some tap water treated with the standard water treatment. Seachem’s “Safe” is good, but you can use whatever you like, any product that removes chlorine and chloramine and detoxifies ammonia and nitrite.
I had an extra dual sponge filter from one of my established tanks and attached it to one side of the tank and pushed the filter down, so it touched the tank bottom and pushed the suction cups in place. The used filter sponges will instantly cycle the tank. So, there’s no need to cycle it and you can introduce a few small fish. I have fancy Guppies in my 20 G tank. Attach a length of plastic tubing to the filter and to the remaining outlet on the air pump. Fill the tank and you’re ready to put in the house plant. Attach the bamboo sticks to either side of the plastic basket and secure them under the lip on either side by running the twist ties through one of the holes and twist the ties down to secure the sticks. The ties should be evenly spaced on both sides of the basket. Set the basket on top of the tank and taking care not to damage the roots, put the roots through the hole you cut. The basket should be directly above the air stone and rocks. Next, open the bag of lava rock and dump the contents of the bag into a sink and rinse the rocks very well. Take some and position them on the bottom of the plastic basket, and pile them up around the base of the plant and fill the basket to the top. Move the plant a little just to straighten it and the rocks will hold the plant in place. You can place the rest of the lava rock around the bottom of the tank. The lava rock has many holes that will be home to the bacteria colony.

Now, position the light above the plant. Once everything is set up, you can plug it all in to see how it works. The light should be on and above the plant, the sponge filter and the air stone should be bubbling away, with the bubbles going up through the plant roots. Last, set the temperature of the heater to roughly 75 degrees. 

As you’ve noticed, the tank is open, so there will be some water that’s lost to evaporation. This is why you have a container of distilled water. You must use distilled or Reverse Osmosis water to top off the tank, no tap water. I typically need to top off my tank every day or two.

Review the directions to make sure all is in place. Allow the tank to run for a few days to steady the water chemistry and add a pinch or so of fish flakes every day or two to keep the bacteria fed until you get the fish in the tank. I recommend smaller fish species like Guppies, Danios, Tetras or some other similarly sized fish. Start with just a few, six to eight is good. Add tank decorations if you want.

Please let me know if you have questions. Have fun!

M


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## dukydaf

Can this be done with other types of filtration or does it have to be a sponge filter ? Does the sponge ever get cleaned ?



MultiTankGuy said:


> Set up the tank on its stand and make sure the stand is heavy enough to support the 200 or so pounds of water and tank equipment and room on the stand for the light and the air pump.


So again how heavy should the stand be ? Is there a formula that I glossed over in physics?



MultiTankGuy said:


> I recommend smaller fish species like Guppies, Danios, Tetras or some other similarly sized fish. Start with just a few, six to eight is good.


So you mean I should not have mature goldfish in this aquarium type ?

Since the "tank water stays balanced" and one plant will remove everything damaging, I was planning to raise a batch of discus from fry to 20cm without any water changes... Sounded like nirvana for discus breeders. But now you speak of guppy and zebra fish, what gives ? 



MultiTankGuy said:


> If you cover the basics needed for good water quality, the tank will run without the need for water changes.





MultiTankGuy said:


> This will maintain fish and plants indefinitely.





MultiTankGuy said:


> The tank runs on no water changes because the fish are fed a balanced diet that helps them replenish the trace minerals. The mineral content stays steady, because we only top off the tank with distilled or Reverse Osmosis water. This water doesn't add minerals, so there's never a build of these elements. The tank water stays balanced.


Just to be clear. I find the no need for any water change ever absurd. I think if you add a book of footnotes to this setup it will work. Setups like this were present from early 1900 that I know of. Even a lot earlier if you think that what you describe is a pond with glass walls.

It will be easier and look a lot better to allow aquatic plants to grow above the water, althernathera, H. corymbosa, bacopa, eichhornia azurea, ammania, hydrocotyle can all grow large emersed forms at room conditions.Once they get to use atmospheric CO2 they will grow fast and large, given that you actually have enough nutrients in that water. If you need to put an emersed plant in there, put it in the sump.

But hey have fun with the project while it runs.


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## MultiTankGuy

duky...

So many questions. But, none that can't be answered. So, here goes. I chose the sponge filter, because it's cheap and reliable. I haven't used anything else, but I suppose you could. I do squeeze out the sponge every few days. I used an aquarium stand sturdy enough to support the tank. I'd suggest something larger than the tank, so there's room for other items, like the light and air pump. 

The 20 G tank was one I had available. You could certainly use something larger if you wanted to keep larger fish. You would need more plants to deal with the increased waste that larger fish would produce and then there's the added expense of more distilled or RO water to keep the tank topped off. As I said earlier, you can't use tap water, because it contains minerals and you don't want a mineral build up in the water.

You could keep one Goldfish. If you do, you wouldn't need a heater, since this species is cold blooded. I suggested small fish because the tank is small. I have Guppies in my 20 G Terraphyte tank.

You could keep cichlids, like Discus. I assume you want to set up a large tank, but it can be done by having more of everything on the list of items needed to set up the tank.

If you're sold on the idea of this type of tank, then I would recommend getting D Crosby Johnson's book. The title is "Never Change Your Fish Water Again". I've read it many times. I keep several large tanks, but I perform large, frequent water changes, but still use the house plants as added filtration. The reason they're not "Terraphyte" tanks is because the distilled water is too expensive to top off so many large tanks. I checked into a Reverse Osmosis set up, but they're pretty expensive. A system to meet the needs of my tanks was around $1,500.00. 

Hopefully, I covered everything you needed to know. If not, I check this forum regularly.

M


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## ac0xr

Thanks for posting the steps!


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## Greggz

MultiTankGuy said:


> You could keep cichlids, like Discus. i assume you want to set up a large tank, but it can be done by having more of everything on the list of items needed to set up the tank.


Are suggesting that you can go from the pic of your tank below to a large Discus tank using the same method??? Do you know of anyone who has ever been successful doing that? I'm not saying it can't be done, but that is a HUGE leap from what's pictured below. I'd love to hear more about it if someone has actually done it. Would be very, very interesting.












MultiTankGuy said:


> I checked into a Reverse Osmosis set up, but their pretty expensive. A system to meet the needs of my tanks was around $1,500.00.


I use RO for my 120G, and change out about 70 gallons a week. I could change out 70 gallons every day if I wanted to. 

My 6 stage unit cost about $200.00. Add another $100 for two 55 gallon storage drums. 

Curious what are the needs of your tank that you would require a $1,500.00 system?


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## MultiTankGuy

Gregg...

You could adapt this small set up to any sized tank. The author, C Crosby Johnson, used a 150 G tank for his cichlids and set up a "Terraphyte" system. All you'd need is to increase the number of items to meet the needs of a larger tank. I used the 20 G as a sample, because I had an empty tank. 

I was looking at a four stage RO system installed under my kitchen sink. This is price I was quoted. I wasn't interested in setting it up myself.

M


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## MCFC

I think you are missing the point people are trying to make with the Discus...


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## Greggz

MultiTankGuy said:


> Gregg...
> 
> You could adapt this small set up to any sized tank. The author, C Crosby Johnson, used a 150 G tank for his cichlids and set up a "Terraphyte" system. All you'd need is to increase the number of items to meet the needs of a larger tank. I used the 20 G as a sample, because I had an empty tank.


When you have a 150 Discus tank set up with long lived well developed specimens and healthy happy plants using this method................well, come to think of it, I seriously doubt that is going to happen. But if it does, and you actually test this theory, be sure to post some pics and documentation and I'm sure many would be very interested.

In the meantime, keep in mind reading something in a book and actually doing it are two completely different things. Easy to repeat what you have read rather than provide evidence of what you have experienced. 



MultiTankGuy said:


> I was looking at a four stage RO system installed under my kitchen sink. This is price I was quoted. I wasn't interested in setting it up myself.
> 
> M


You might want to get another quote. That's about $1,300 for the installation of a $200 item that takes about 20 minutes to install. Many here routinely use RO water for water changes. It's really not very complicated or expensive. If I can do it, anybody can.:wink2:


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## MultiTankGuy

Gregg...

The Terraphyte tanks are open, so there's a considerable amount of water that's lost to evaporation. My little 20 G needs a half gallon replaced about every other day. I figured if all my tanks were this kind, I'd need roughly 20 gallons of RO or distilled water per week to keep the tanks full. Would a system like yours make that much? And, how much water is wasted?

The Chinese evergreens get quite large and will eventually block the light from any aquatic plants that are planted below them. This type of system isn't meant to work with the standard aquarium plants that require strong lights. The only one I've been able to grow are species of Anubias.

M

Bump: Gregg...

The Terraphyte tanks are open, so there's a considerable amount of water that's lost to evaporation. My little 20 G needs a half gallon replaced about every other day. I figured if all my tanks were this kind, I'd need roughly 20 gallons of RO or distilled water per week to keep the tanks full. Would a system like yours make that much? And, how much water is wasted?

The Chinese evergreens get quite large and will eventually block the light from any aquatic plants that are planted below them. This type of system isn't meant to work with the standard aquarium plants that require strong lights. The only one I've been able to grow are species of Anubias.

M


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## Greggz

MultiTankGuy said:


> The Terraphyte tanks are open, so there's a considerable amount of water that's lost to evaporation. My little 20 G needs a half gallon replaced about every other day. I figured if all my tanks were this kind, I'd need roughly 20 gallons of RO or distilled water per week to keep the tanks full. Would a system like yours make that much? And, how much water is wasted?



Mine is nothing special and makes about 75 gallons a day. 

As to waste, I honestly don't know, I've never measured it. I'm on a well so water usage is not an issue for me.

The amount you are talking about could be produced by an even less expensive very small system. Seriously they are very, very easy to set up. Not much to it really.


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## jyg

jeffkrol said:


> Yes Nitrate "sponge" terrestrial plants will suck up the excess Nitrates.. Aquatics are horrible at removing nitrates..


As in, underwater plants are horrible at removing nitrates? 


Edit: 

Never mind ... I was reading "nitrates" as "nitrogen compounds". Plants prefer ammonium and generally only go to nitrates when there's little else available. This would certainly make them "horrible" at removing nitrates.

Though, I wonder. If nitrifying bacteria has already disposed of NH3/NH+ and NO2-, are you saying that plants wont go to town on the NO3-? As in, even if it's there plants are sluggish to consume it?


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## jeffkrol

Over 100ppm nitrates.. NEVER brought nitrates down w/ just plants, no matter how many..
never fertilized either..
40B and it's just not the front that is like that.
top off water ranged from zero to 10ppm Nitrates (est)
ammonia and Nitrite zero though it's possible Am was about .25ppm..Depends on how much faith you put in test kits..
tube tests showed that. "in tank disc" didn't (not in photo)
YMMV



> Though, I wonder. If nitrifying bacteria has already disposed of NH3/NH+ and NO2-, are you saying that plants wont go to town on the NO3-


Even if they did I doubt that in a "no water change" tank one could keep up w/ the BB turning over every ounce of detrus to NO3...

would love to be proven wrong..


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## dukydaf

In the above shown aquarium you are limiting plant growth and hence nutrient uptake. Limiting factor: space 

If you add a lot N to the system you would also need plants with high metabolism, ie if you have a bunch of goldfish in the aquarium don't expect Anubias to reduce the nitrate. If you have a lot egeria, pistia, ceratophyllim and they have all else needed to grow (including space) they will reduce the NO3.
@MultiTankGuy You should float (pun intended) your idea for growing discus fry over at http://forum.simplydiscus.com/ see what their response is.
Fair warning, breeders change water very often (daily) in aquariums with discus fry. 

The problem here is not that they will not reduce NO3, the problem is that the rate at which NO3 is being produced will be a lot higher than what the plants (aquatic or terrestrial) can remove. That is why this type of tank is so limited to few, small and robust fish... low NO3 production with low feeding. 
Say you actually manage to stabilize the system in terms of NO3, the bigger problem are the stuff that are not readily /never taken up by plants. Sure you can measure NO3, but can you measure the concentration of fish hormones ? Just because you can't measure something it does not mean it is not important.

And what about that mulm accumulating at the bottom of the tank, that is not quickly broken down, it just accumulates becoming a reservoir of nutrients, likely to go anaerobic . In my pond such accumulation was less of a problem because of the volume of water, but still I had to do maintenance on it removing mulm/debris/fish waste by the bucket. If I did nto do that sooner or later my pond would be a pool of mud.



jeffkrol said:


> "Though, I wonder. If nitrifying bacteria has already disposed of NH3/NH+ and NO2-, are you saying that plants wont go to town on the NO3-
> "
> Even if they did I doubt that in a "no water change" tank one could keep up w/ the BB turning over every ounce of detrus to NO3...
> 
> would love to be proven wrong..


Not sure what your viewpoint is on the matter. Of course plants will use NO3, why "even if they did ? After all we are adding KNO3 to aquarium and are able to grow plants very well. The matter has long ago been settled, with many aquatic macrophytes following this model more or less. 

And of course in aquarium you have relatively low NH4 production so there will be very little spread around to plants, algae and bacteria.


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## MultiTankGuy

duk...

Good information. I can tell you the "Ag" plants get quick large. I have some tanks with plants that are easily a couple of feet across and two feet tall growing out of the tank. The root system on these plants is considerable and will use nitrogen as quickly as the fish produce it. I've tested the water and there are no traces of ammonia or nitrite and the nitrate level is steady at under 10 ppm. The "Terraphyte" tank would be perfect for a grow out tank for fry. The water would be essentially nitrogen free. The bacteria colony grows during the evening hours, when the lights go out and the house plant rests. So, any nitrogen produced at night is used by the bacteria colony. 

i would like to know the particulars of your RO system, if you can provide it. My only concern is storing the water and the waste, if there is any.

Thanks!

M


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## MultiTankGuy

Hello TPT...

Going into the third week of keeping my 20 G "Terraphyte" tank. All things are good. The "Ag" plant has three new leaves and the nitrogen levels are steady at no traces of ammonia or nitrite and nitrates were 5 ppm. The fish are acting normally, no health issues that I can see. Use roughly a gallon of distilled water per week to top off the tank. These tanks have to be uncovered to allow the house plant to grow. Have noticed a bit of a moss build up for some reason, but it looks good in the tank. Added some Anacharis and Hornwort to help with filtration, but the house plant seems to be working well.

M


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## MultiTankGuy

TPT...

My 20G, no water change tank, is still running fine. It has been 30 days since its last water change. The 15 Fancy Guppies are now close to 30 counting the new fry and I go through roughly a gallon of distilled water every 3 to 4 days to replace what's lost to evaporation. The Chinese evergreen is growing quickly. There are no traces of ammonia or nitrite in the water and the plant keeps the nitrates at roughly 15 ppm. If I added a plant, I'm sure I could get the nitrates even lower. Did anyone set up a tank like this? Likely not, because this is a completely different concept in tank keeping, but one that will work with any sized tank. The only negative would be the cost of the distilled or reverse osmosis water. This will get expensive if you're replacing water lost in a large tank. A 75 gallon tank would require about 8 gallons a week. But, the tank has to be open so the house plant can grow properly and remove the nitrogen from the water.

M


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## Kubla

I don't think Greggz RO system is anything special. The basic sub-$200 models will usually produce about 50 gallons a day. I think 4 gallons of waste (although it's not really waste) per 1 g RO is pretty typical.


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## CT_Ram

In a small aquarium with guppies i would keep an eye on th ph if i were you. Maybe your tap water is hard to start with but with time aquariums tend to acidify. Guppies really deslike acidic/soft water and since they will over populate the aquarium the acidification will start to go faster. You might at some point need to add some buffer. I do very little water changes in my tanks cause the fast plant growth keeps the nitrates close to zero but when the endler population is really high in my grow out tank the ph starts to drop even with crushed coral so i have to add calcium to buffer it back. On my larger tanks where i keep the acid water fish my ph stays at 5 (which is actually ok for the fish there and they actually prefer it to breed) but your guppies will be very sick if the ph drops like that.
There are people making fun that a no-water-change aquarium is not a good method and making fun that is not sustainable cause you wouldn't grow discus on it. Ya, but you could also not grow discus with weekly watee changes, in a planted tank or in any other standard tanks, they are just picky. And obviously any grow-out tank has to have extra water changes compared to normal ones cause they they should be overfed. 
A no-water change tank is conceptually interisting but obviously not for everyfish. I also think that is a bad idea for a goldfish, there bioload is to large.


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## Discusluv

The main problem that I could foresee with doing this "no water change" method with Discus, or Uaru's for that matter, would be the amount of mucus that each exude daily in the aquarium. This mucus has chemical growth-inhibitors that disperse continuously throughout water column and these thick secretions layer over every surface of the aquarium.

This layer is quite slimy to the touch on glass, wood, ornaments, etc...
If you have kept discus you would know what I mean, or maybe you do know what I mean and can explain how, regardless of this, the "no water change method" can still off-set the damaging effects of prolonged exposure to these chemicals in tank?

This mucus layer ( and its chemical diffusement throughout water column) is especially predominant in the first 6 months of of active growth of discus and uaru, slows down somewhat in the sub-adult stage, and increases again when both come into age for breeding: just prior to spawn this layer thickens, during spawn, and after while the fry eat off this layer.

The phenomenon of mucus production and its physiological effects on discus in the aquarium due to the chemical contained in these secretions is very specific to these two species, it is well-documented...

I am interested in how this effect can be bypassed through this method. Of course, I am skeptical, but always keep my mind wide open.


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## MCFC

@Discusluv - Just trust in the magic of the Chinese house plant hahaha!


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## swarley

Here's a video done by Aquarium Co-op of a store that doesn't do water changes.


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## MultiTankGuy

TPT...

The input is much appreciated. I've kept this type of tank before and the plants always kept the tank water chemistry balanced. I prefer to use distilled water for topping off the tank as RO water seems to be more acidic. Distilled is much cheaper, I can get it for less than $.95 per gallon. I converted a 45 G tall tank some time ago to the same no water change type system and introduced some of the Aglaonema house plants and the plants have grown incredibly well with the high aeration and the constant source of nutrients from the dissolving fish waste. 

M


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## SquigglyThing

Google "Aquaponics". Plenty of people keeping 1000+ full grown tilapia with no water changes. Slightly more elaborate, A LOT more plants.


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## CT_Ram

My future future plans include installing an aquaponics setup when i can quit my job and gonlive in the farm. So we can have "real fish" like my husband says lol. For now we were actually planning to make something like an appartment sized aquaponics to put the endlers there lol. We keep making imaginary designs for it but we inly have one window that has enoigh light that might be enough to grow some herb/vegetal. Our training aquaponics lol. I get sad when i take tones of frogbit from the endlers' tanks just to trash. It would be great if we could grow a lettuce out of it, just because... lol


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## MCFC

SquigglyThing said:


> Google "Aquaponics". Plenty of people keeping 1000+ full grown tilapia with no water changes. Slightly more elaborate, A LOT more plants.


LOL!!! Quite a big difference between an aquaponics system that holds 1000 fish for human consumption vs. sticking a magical Chinese house plant in the top of your guppy aquarium and stopping water changes...

@CT_Ram - My old, crude apartment aquaponics system:


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## CT_Ram

@MFSC that looks awesome! I want one. I like the reflecting thingy idea. Our main problem is lack of light in a crapy apartment. With the tendency of my fish to overpopulate i would have lettuces the size of pumpkins ☺


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## MultiTankGuy

CT...

The system is really simple. All you need is a means of removing ammonia from the fish waste. The immersed roots of the Chinese evergreen do this job. You also need a means of replenishing the minerals in the water that are lost due to constant filtration and use by the fish, plants and the small bacteria colony. Feeding the fish and the plants foods that contain the trace minerals works, because the fish waste eventually dissolves in the tank water. By using distilled water to replenish what's lost to evaporation you're not adding minerals, so the water chemistry is always balanced.

The system should work in any sized tank with whatever freshwater species you want to keep. Larger tanks simply need more plants. I have the system running in small tanks around 20 gallons all the way up to one that's 60 gallons. There's no trace of ammonia or nitrite in the water and the last nitrate test was at 5 ppm. The fish are healthy and breeding regularly.

M


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## MCFC

MultiTankGuy said:


> The system should work in any sized tank with whatever freshwater species you want to keep. Larger tanks simply need more plants.




Pure fiction. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Greggz

MultiTankGuy said:


> I have the system running in small tanks around 20 gallons all the way up to one that's 60 gallons.


I'd love to see a picture of the 60 gallon. 

I really have no idea of what to expect, but it might give folks a better idea of it's something they want to try and emulate.


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## MultiTankGuy

Not fiction. Here's a photo of a 55 G with a couple of difference Chinese evergreens in the tank.

https://imgur.com/e3OSqdR

I have a photo of the 60 G. Will send it.

M


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## Greggz

MultiTankGuy said:


> Not fiction. Here's a photo of a 55 G with a couple of difference Chinese evergreens in the tank.
> 
> https://imgur.com/e3OSqdR
> 
> I have a photo of the 60 G. Will send it.
> 
> M


You know, that 55G is exactly what I was getting to. 

I don't think that is the goal of vast majority here. 

No judgement. Everyone has different tastes. Just not what I think most are shooting for.

Here's the pic posted so others can easily see.


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## CT_Ram

That is a lot of plants!!! Those aquariums are just with ambient light? No LED nor anything? It maybe be too much for some people but i don't see why one would not use a hibrid system where this would be on a sump/refugium and the top aquarium would have a more spaceous layout for fish. That is kind of how i have the 55g. It is moderatly planted on top and the refugium is full of fast growing plants (but not anywhere near this level, mine are just aquarium plants) and the nitrate levels are usually really low. I spend months whithout changing the water. I really just change it cause of the ph droping (i have super soft water coming from the tap). But this is taking heavy planted to a whole new level.


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## houseofcards

MultiTankGuy said:


> Not fiction. Here's a photo of a 55 G with a couple of difference Chinese evergreens in the tank.













I think I spotted the Discus :nerd:


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## MultiTankGuy

*No Water Change Tank*

https://imgur.com/a/eNTqgAv 

TPT...

Here's a photo of a 60 G "Terraphyte" tank. No water changes, just top offs with distilled water, about 3 gallons a week. This tank needed several Chinese evergreen plants. The plants do fine in florescent light and there are roughly 100 Fancy Guppies, a few Platys, Corydoras and a four year old Pleco. Haven't tested the water in this tank in a while, but the fish and Anubias plants are growing well.

M


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## IntotheWRX

MultiTankGuy said:


> https://imgur.com/a/eNTqgAv
> 
> TPT...
> 
> Here's a photo of a 60 G "Terraphyte" tank. No water changes, just top offs with distilled water, about 3 gallons a week. This tank needed several Chinese evergreen plants. The plants do fine in florescent light and there are roughly 100 Fancy Guppies, a few Platys, Corydoras and a four year old Pleco. Haven't tested the water in this tank in a while, but the fish and Anubias plants are growing well.
> 
> M


that's one way to do a planted tank


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## Kubla

houseofcards said:


> I think I spotted the Discus :nerd:


I think I spotted the future electrical fire.


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## MultiTankGuy

Kub...

No electrical issues. Have had an electrician check out the setup.

M


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## MCFC

I can't wait for the IAPLC "Magical Chinese House Plant" category...


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## AbbeysDad

No offense, but it sure looks unnatural/ugly (and not much room for any fish!) just to save a 30 minute weekly water change!


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## MultiTankGuy

Dad...

Just like the plants to do the work of filtration. Yes, 30 minutes is all the water change would take provided you have one tank. I have eight that are pretty much this size or larger. The plants do a much better job of keeping the tank water clean than I can even with large, frequent water changes. The fish really like the neutral pH and the algae that attaches to the plant roots is a good food supplement for them. Besides, the humidity in the house is great year round. I'll have to get a pic of my tank room, the place is full of these plants.

M


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## IntotheWRX

MultiTankGuy said:


> Dad...
> 
> Just like the plants to do the work of filtration. Yes, 30 minutes is all the water change would take provided you have one tank. I have eight that are pretty much this size or larger. The plants do a much better job of keeping the tank water clean than I can even with large, frequent water changes. The fish really like the neutral pH and the algae that attaches to the plant roots is a good food supplement for them. Besides, the humidity in the house is great year round. I'll have to get a pic of my tank room, the place is full of these plants.
> 
> M


set up like that you may almost have a no air change room


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## Vanamonde

MTG:
You might be interested in multi chamber acrylic filter boxes lots of reefers use. Basically it is an acrylic rectangular open top box with dividers, can hang on back or set atop the tank on the rim. Water enters one side, flows through each section in turn, then exits the box either via overflow (HOB); or a port in the bottom of the exit end (above tank on rim). Usually used to house various media for reef tank filter and to act as a refugia.
An image:









A small pump for flow, put lava rock and a plant in each section, and functionally in accordance to the terraphyte concept, but lets you recover the space in tank and open up the tank surface. Plus they are cheap on e-yay-bay-yay.

V


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## bettang

I'm not sure why people want to not do water changes, it takes literally a half hour with a python two way siphon. Maybe you can cut down on water changes with this but not replace them completely.


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## Kubla

MultiTankGuy said:


> Kub...
> 
> No electrical issues. Have had an electrician check out the setup.
> 
> M


The power strip that looks like it has a multi-plug adapter and electrical cables with no drip loops is what I was seeing. I didn't even know you could find an electrician to check that kind of stuff.


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## houseofcards

Well there is a wide range of objectives when someone starts a planted tank. It could simply be the science of growing plants a certain way like the Walsted method, etc. For some it's all aesthetics as the scape and overall look is everything. Most end up in the meaty part of the curve with plants that are organized and look pleasing to the eye. I'm not sure what the objective is here. Does the ends justify the means so you don't do water changes?


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## Raith

bettang said:


> I'm not sure why people want to not do water changes, it takes literally a half hour with a python two way siphon. Maybe you can cut down on water changes with this but not replace them completely.


Less if you're smart about it. :]


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## houseofcards

Raith said:


> Less if you're smart about it. :]


Less of what?


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## MCFC

Less time per water change


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## Raith

MCFC said:


> Less time per water change


Bingo!


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## MultiTankGuy

*No Water Changes*

TPT...

The idea behind this type of tank is to mimic nature's way of keeping a clean house. If the plants will do a better job of filtration, then why not use them? The tank is a kind of biotope. I try to mimic a specific environment like the northwestern part of the country. Where the salmon run, there are trees that grow around the rivers. The salmon spawn and die in the rivers. The nutrients are taken in by the root systems and the water in this area of the country is some of the purest. The Chinese evergreens are essentially doing the same job as the tress. I tested the water yesterday some of my tanks and found no traces of ammonia or nitrite and the nitrate was below 20 ppm. The pH was at 7.2. 

M


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## MCFC

Ohhhhhhh! So this is just a Pacific North West biotope!! I completely forgot how much the Magical Chinese House Plant dominates the landscape up here...


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## Surf

The Terraphyte tanks are open, so there's a considerable amount of water that's lost to evaporation. My little 20 G needs a half gallon replaced about every other day. I figured if all my tanks were this kind, I'd need roughly 20 gallons of RO or distilled water per week to keep the tanks full. Would a system like yours make that much? And, how much water is wasted?

Most small under sink RO systems in hardware stores (typically cost about $130) can produce 20 gallons a day. However they typically only come with a 1 gallon storage tank. You can get larger tanks at extra cost but they take up a lot of space. You can easily. I periodically drain the tank and put the water in a storage bucket for later use.



> You might want to get another quote. That's about $1,300 for the installation of a $200 item that takes about 20 minutes to install.


I would budget about a day to do the installation for a true RO system with a stage tank, water spigot, RO filter unit, and to make attachments to the water supply, and attachment for the waste water drain. I have done 3 installations. Frequently you have to buy parts to connect to the wall water taps and to modify the drain for the waste water discharge. In one case I had to by a new water faucet to free up a hole in the sink for the water spigot. In most cases a 20 minute install is not possible. You can install a simple brita water filter in about that much time but it isn't a true RO system and may not be able to remove all the minerals in the water. And the filters probably won't last as long as RO filters will. 

As to how much waste water, Keep in mind these systems turn off as soon as the storage tank is full. Making 20 gallons of RO water may result in 40 to 50 gallons of waste water but a single shower can easily exceed that consumption. Add in toilets, cloths, dishes most people without RO systems will use more than The waste water produced by a RO systems. just to clean them selves, cloths and dishes. Watering the yard and cleaning the car add even more. Considering this and the fact the RO system will shut off when the storage tank is full, the waste water generated by the RO system is a small concern.



> Over 100ppm nitrates.. NEVER brought nitrates down w/ just plants, no matter how many..
> never fertilized either..


If all nutrients plants need is available in sufficient quantities plants can reduce nitrate levels down to zero. I have seen that many times in my 5 gallon if I stop adding nitrate but keep adding the other macro and micro nutrients my nitrates drop to zero and then plant growth slows or stops. In the tank when I have zero nitrate my phosphates start to increase. If maintain a stable nitrate lovel plant growth increase and phosphate will drop back down to normal. 

If you have a nutrient deficiency you likely will see nitrate increase. In addition to nutrients the number and size of fish in the tank will affect how fast plants can reduce the level. If the thank is overstocked it may not be possible to grow plants fast enough to consume all the nitrate produce by the fish.


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## MultiTankGuy

MC...

Good one. But, the "Aglaonema" just dominates doctors' offices and the local Malls. It does do essentially the same job as the trees in your area. The water chemistry in my tanks with the "Ag" plants is as clean or cleaner than when I did the large water changes. So, I can set up more tanks with less work to maintain the water quality. Just set up a 75 G and am raising a few Comets.

M


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## Giogina

Cool! It just so happens that I just finished setting up a very similar tank, a 300L... For keeping the plants, I used one of these plastic things that you can place above your sink for letting dishes dry - so, essentially a plastic basket with lots of holes ^^















https://imgur.com/a/sUCzB8h

Well, I'll probably have to do some amout of cleaning/water changes because of sir poopsalot in the bottom right corner... but I do very much like the idea of having a stable system that keeps it's equilibrium by itself. Sure, I get the urge to control every little detail in a tank by hand - I tend to completely overdo that when setting up a new tank. But eventually, nature takes over. Nature adapts. Of course, there are systems like mountain streams with a lot of natural water change. But there are others, too. Super-rough calculation for the Amazon river: just under 7000 km long, at flow speeds around 1m/s, therefore it takes the water 7000000 seconds to flow all the way through the river. That's 80 days. Meaning that even the Amazon gets a water change only every 2-3 months, that's longer than I expected. Would be very intersting to do a more detailed calculation, I can see plenty of room for error in the one I just did. ^^


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## dukydaf

Giogina said:


> But eventually, nature takes over. Nature adapts. Of course, there are systems like mountain streams with a lot of natural water change. But there are others, too. Super-rough calculation for the Amazon river: just under 7000 km long, at flow speeds around 1m/s, therefore it takes the water 7000000 seconds to flow all the way through the river. That's 80 days. Meaning that even the Amazon gets a water change only every 2-3 months, that's longer than I expected. Would be very intersting to do a more detailed calculation, I can see plenty of room for error in the one I just did. ^^


Yeah sure nature adapts... Betta fish live in a small plastic cup at the fish store. Do you suggest that is good for them and that the system adapted? Would sticking a terrestrial plant in there make the conditions perfect for the betta? 

The moment you added a fish to your aquarium you are many 100 times over the fish density in lakes and rivers (mass of fish / volume of water) so I don't quite see your point when comparing aquarium water change with natural systems. All this ignoring the bacteria rich mud at the bottom, big algae/plant masses, massive trees growing, insects breeding there, bird poop/prey etc etc etc

I'm not sure that's how rivers work, especially when you consider rivers with such large collection basins.


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## Giogina

dukydaf said:


> Yeah sure nature adapts... Betta fish live in a small plastic cup at the fish store. Do you suggest that is good for them and that the system adapted? Would sticking a terrestrial plant in there make the conditions perfect for the betta?
> 
> The moment you added a fish to your aquarium you are many 100 times over the fish density in lakes and rivers (mass of fish / volume of water) so I don't quite see your point when comparing aquarium water change with natural systems. All this ignoring the bacteria rich mud at the bottom, big algae/plant masses, massive trees growing, insects breeding there, bird poop/prey etc etc etc
> 
> I'm not sure that's how rivers work, especially when you consider rivers with such large collection basins.


By 'adapting', I mostly mean that, for every naturally occuring condition, there's gonna be a number of species adapted to it. If the conditions are too bad - well, that's gonna be tubifex, not what I'm aming for ^^ To be clear, of course I'm against sticking any animal into conditions it won't be happy in. What I'm saying is, it should be possible to build a complete ecosystem that's in balance without water changes, including fish species that thrive in there.

Now that I think about it, I feel like playing devil's advokate here. It's not my intention to offend anyone, but it's always interesting to think about what would be the best way to go, right?
Every time you perform a water change, the water parameters apruptly change. Some species like it, e.g. neons begin to spawn - but won't there also be species who prefer a constant low nitrate concentration over the nitrate building up and being suddenly removed every two weeks or so?
Furthermore, if you have to rely on water changes to remove your nitrate, will you ever be able to keep it close to 0 ppm? For example, doing water changes of 25% every week would be a lot, right? Assuming the system is in equilibrium, that means that at least three weeks worth of nitrate buildup remain in the tank at all times. How much that is obviously depends on the bioload - but it definitely is not zero. Looking at it in that light, wouldn't it be *preferrable* to use plants for nitrate removal?


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## dukydaf

Giogina said:


> What I'm saying is, it should be possible to build a complete ecosystem that's in balance without water changes, including fish species that thrive in there.?


Good, I also don't say you need to do water changes every 7 days. You can do it every 3, 10, 100...depends on the tank and the goals. What I am saying is that aquariums are not and never will be nature, hence not a complete ecosystem. The more you learn about natural bodies of water the more you realize that our aquariums are unable to offer the chemical and physical condition diversity. And again even if we ignore the huge collection basin (surrounding land), very deep mulm substrate etc. Most people also don't want the really dirty nature with algae on plants, debris on leaves, decomposing leaves and the occasional rotting animal, they want this romantic notion of nature.

The issue is that many people bring the argument of "it's an ecosystem" or "it's natural" as support for a hands off approach. They get an increasingly limiting system. The discussion is long, have had it many times here... Bottom line... It's your glass box, take ownership and be active in keeping it. 



Giogina said:


> Now that I think about it, I feel like playing devil's advokate here. It's not my intention to offend anyone, but it's always interesting to think about what would be the best way to go, right?
> Every time you perform a water change, the water parameters apruptly change. Some species like it, e.g. neons begin to spawn - but won't there also be species who prefer a constant low nitrate concentration over the nitrate building up and being suddenly removed every two weeks or so?
> Furthermore, if you have to rely on water changes to remove your nitrate, will you ever be able to keep it close to 0 ppm? For example, doing water changes of 25% every week would be a lot, right? Assuming the system is in equilibrium, that means that at least three weeks worth of nitrate buildup remain in the tank at all times. How much that is obviously depends on the bioload - but it definitely is not zero. Looking at it in that light, wouldn't it be *preferrable* to use plants for nitrate removal?


Here's a question... Should an aquarium keeper's goal be 0 nitrate? Or is it only a goal because it's easy to measure? 

A while back, fishkeepers were only easily able to test pH. They started saying that you needed this and that pH for this fish or invert. Or you need to allow the fish to adjust to your water pH. You need to keep it stable. Reality is that it was the things that influenced the pH which were a lot more relevant than pH itself. Now with CO2 injection people vary their pH by 1 or more and keep healthy breeding fish. Coming back to NO3, is it the key factor or are other unmeasurable organics more important? Fish hormones? Bacterial secretions? Doc? Metabolites released by plants? Not even tds can detect all these, plants won't uptake them. 

If you really want 0 NO3 specifically there are quicker ways to get there, deep sand beds /sand filters, wood chips, lava rocks etc. They are so aggressive in no3 uptake that the plants will become NO3 deficient. 

Stability is good but are your sure your no-water-change system is stable? Not accumulating anything? How can check for all? Stable is then a matter of ranges. Tropical reefs require smaller ranges because the ocean there is stable year round. Freshwater fish and plants tolerate larger ranges because most live in diverse/changing conditions. Even in large rivers you get fish going from one tributary to another (various water chemistry). Seasonal pools forming etc. Of course nobody is saying that replacing 30°C water with 4°C is okay but most fish have wide ranges, depends on specie of course.

And speaking of stability, systems with water changes can be very stable, depends on the scale you look at. Take your example with 25% weekly and say a constant production rate per week of 10 units . By week 9 you will be close to the mathematical maximum, just under 40 units. After that you stay there, and your sure you stay there with each water change. Is 40 too much? Increase frequency or %? Do 80% and you will have 12.5 units. And resets all parameters not just the ones you could monitor.


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## aqua360

The only way I know to get rid of the need for manual water changes is the drip feed/drain system but even then you still need to gravel vac now and again. I sorry but all those plants growing like that in my opinion do bot look good and of course leave no light in the tank or free space for the fish


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## Edward




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## Giogina

@dukydaf: Of course, it depends on the goal. It's where I personally draw the line between 'fish tank' and 'aquarium'. By fish tank, I mean just a box of water and decor that is optimized to keep a few fish happy and look pretty. I agree, that is not going to be a complete ecosystem.
But then there's the opposite end of that scale - a set of plants, animals and bacteria that form an equilibrium with barely any human input. You say it's not possible, and that's where I disagree.
For example, in my office I have a 60L, heavily planted, containing shrimps and other crustaceans and probably a few hundred snails, and sometimes a group of 6 or so tiny lifebearers, when I'm around to feed them. There's rotting leaves in there, and sometimes I throw in the vegetables from my lunch I don't like. Every summer, I'm out of the country for a few months, and every autumn I come back to find the aquarium with just as many species as I left it with, just 2/3 of the water missing. And that's what I call an ecosystem. Yep, maybe it's not 'pretty' in the usual sense, what with the mud and algae and all, but it's a piece of nature with a lot of different species and that's why I like it.





dukydaf said:


> Here's a question... Should an aquarium keeper's goal be 0 nitrate? Or is it only a goal because it's easy to measure?
> 
> A while back, fishkeepers were only easily able to test pH. They started saying that you needed this and that pH for this fish or invert. Or you need to allow the fish to adjust to your water pH. You need to keep it stable. Reality is that it was the things that influenced the pH which were a lot more relevant than pH itself. Now with CO2 injection people vary their pH by 1 or more and keep healthy breeding fish. Coming back to NO3, is it the key factor or are other unmeasurable organics more important? Fish hormones? Bacterial secretions? Doc? Metabolites released by plants? Not even tds can detect all these, plants won't uptake them.
> 
> If you really want 0 NO3 specifically there are quicker ways to get there, deep sand beds /sand filters, wood chips, lava rocks etc. They are so aggressive in no3 uptake that the plants will become NO3 deficient.
> 
> Stability is good but are your sure your no-water-change system is stable? Not accumulating anything? How can check for all? Stable is then a matter of ranges. Tropical reefs require smaller ranges because the ocean there is stable year round. Freshwater fish and plants tolerate larger ranges because most live in diverse/changing conditions. Even in large rivers you get fish going from one tributary to another (various water chemistry). Seasonal pools forming etc. Of course nobody is saying that replacing 30°C water with 4°C is okay but most fish have wide ranges, depends on specie of course.
> 
> And speaking of stability, systems with water changes can be very stable, depends on the scale you look at. Take your example with 25% weekly and say a constant production rate per week of 10 units . By week 9 you will be close to the mathematical maximum, just under 40 units. After that you stay there, and your sure you stay there with each water change. Is 40 too much? Increase frequency or %? Do 80% and you will have 12.5 units. And resets all parameters not just the ones you could monitor.


I agree with you here. It is probably better if nitrate is not the limiting factor for plant growth, so that plants are able to take up other stuff ... And yes, we don't know enough to predict all the consequences, I certainly don't. 
But, 'we don't know' is not really an argument for either side, is it? How do you know for sure that "aquarium-aged" water is worse than tap water? (I'm a bit biased in this point because there's something seriously wrong with our tap water here... I've gotten serious bacteria/fungus growths a few times after adding too much of it :/)
Fish hormones and other complicated organic molecules, I wouldn't worry about too much - those are high in energy and probably won't last long. (BTW, why do you guys call nitrate an 'organic'? It's an anorganic ion. Or does this refer to the fact that it's part of a biological cycle?) So I guess the biggest question is whether all the elements are in balance. Nitrogen, we already took care of. Phousphorous should be possible to deal with via plants. With respect to water hardness, Ca etc, my answer is snails, a nice population of these does a good job keeping my water hardness in a reasonable range. One potential problem is accumulation of trace elements, heavy metals and such - which I'd expect to be a smaller problem when using RO water (heavy metals shouldn't be able to make it through reverse osmosis).




aqua360 said:


> The only way I know to get rid of the need for manual water changes is the drip feed/drain system but even then you still need to gravel vac now and again.


What do you mean with 'need to gravel vac'? I do water changes when I have too many fish, but never in my life have I felt the need to gravel vac. The burying snails process the detritus, the bacteria do their thing, done. Again, it's a matter of preference, but I don't think a 'clean-looking' tank bottom is in any way beneficial to the stability of the tank.


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## houseofcards

@Giogina Got pics of your "self sustaining tanks"


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## MultiTankGuy

TPT...

The "No Water Change" Terraphyte tanks are running very well. Have used about 2 to 3 gallons of distilled water weekly to top off the tanks. The tanks are open, so there's evaporation to replace. The plants must like the distilled water, because I've noticed more flowers. The steady source of nutrients from the dissolved fish waste must be to the plant's liking. If anyone has kept Aglaonema (Chinese evergreen) in their homes, the plants can get quite large. They'll do fine in room light, but if you increase the light, and nutrients, they'll flower more often and produce multiple blossoms of white and green.

M


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## MultiTankGuy

TPT...

If you've set up your "Terraphyte" tank, there's an important tank management point you need to remember. Since these tanks never require a water change, you can't use treated tap water to top off the water that's lost to evaporation like you would a standard tank. If you do, there will be an eventual build of minerals in the water and this will affect the health of the fish. Minerals in the water don't evaporate. So, you have to use water that's mineral free. You can use either Reverse Osmosis or distilled water. RO water can be a little acidic and can affect the pH of your tank. I recommend distilled water. It's generally much cheaper unless you have an RO system.

M


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## Quagulator

Please explain how RO will affect pH where as distilled water will not. 

Yes minerals do not evaporate, neither do organic compounds, toxins, slime coats, ambient dust that settles in the tank etc etc. you know, the ones that plants won't uptake.

I'm not against a low maintenance tank, I run one myself, but aesthetically speaking these tanks are an eye sore IMO.


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## madcrafted

R/O and distilled water should both have a KH of 0. Therefore any pH influence is that of weak acids in either your tank or the jug that it's stored in (carbonic). Matter of fact my R/O (pH of 7) raises the pH in my tanks until the substrate buffers it back down.


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## MultiTankGuy

Q...

Here's what I've learned. Both RO and distilled water are nearly pure. I understand this. But, when they are exposed to oxygen in the air or some other source, they can turn a little acidic. It has something to do with carbon dioxide in the air. I keep my distilled water in a 5 gallon bucket and run an air stone into the bucket to add oxygen to the water before it goes into my tanks. I've found that RO water will keep the pH of the tank at about 7.2. The distilled water I get apparently isn't as acidic and the pH of the tank water is 7.4. The fish like the water more alkaline and the plants like it more acidic. Anyway, it seems the brand of distilled water is different than the Reverse Osmosis water. One seems to react to exposure to oxygen or whatever else in in the air differently than the other. Could be the processing is the cause. These "Terraphyte" tanks are really interesting. I've picked up a lot of new information on water chemistry. 

M


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## MultiTankGuy

TPT...

Another thought occurred to me. If you've tested the tank water lately in your new tank and the nitrate level is low or even zero, then it's very likely the Chinese evergreen plant is using the ammonia that's produced by the dissolving fish waste before the bacteria colony can use it. In a standard tank, you feed the fish and they produce waste material that dissolves in the tank water. The process produces ammonia. One kind of bacteria uses the ammonia and produces nitrite. Another kind uses nitrite and produces nitrate. There's nothing that removes nitrate other than you removing and replacing the tank water. The "Terraphyte" works differently. The plant root system removes ammonia before the bacteria can use it. So, there's no nitrite and no nitrate. For this reason, a water test may show no traces of nitrate. Which, is really the way the fish prefer their water. 

M


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## Discusluv

This is not just an eyesore- its a complete mess.
Most aquarists would not want this messy "look" in their house.
Sure, makes for a good experiment in a back room where others that are not interested in a "no water change aquarium" can see it. 
A practical solution for most aquarists who want it in their home?- umm, no. Its ugly.


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## MultiTankGuy

TPT...

One more item on the "Terraphyte" tank, please. As with any plant you keep, it must be properly maintained. It's no different with the "Ag" plant. The plant is a natural water filter and the leaves act as part of the filtering process. At some point the leaves get old and can no longer help the plant filter out the nitrogen from the dissolved fish waste material. They begin to turn yellow. The tank keeper needs to trim the old leaves. A pair of sharp scissors will do the job. Trimming helps generate new growth and keeps the plant healthy and looking good.

M


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## Discusluv

@MultiTankGuy I think you are missing what I am saying. Ill try to be clearer.

The tank picture you posted has very healthy plants in themselves, that is not what I am talking about. I dont see any dead , yellowing leaves that need to be trimmed off in your photo as you mentioned in your last post. It is rather the opposite problem-- too many plants, so many that it obscures the view of aquarist. It is a green mass of leaves and roots- and white trays.

Maybe a small percentage of individuals would like this look. Someone that likes to see a mass of plants, but nothing in particular. Or, someone that likes the Chinese evergreens at top off water ( which are, indeed,of themselves nice) and could ignore the overall messiness below the waterline and outside the tank.

Or, I can see this method appealing to a scientist who is more concerned that his/her theory of the "no water change aquarium" works in its application than how it looks to achieve that purpose.

The hobby is a very visual one, we want to see the fish we keep, the plants and design we work hard to perfect-- aesthetics is important. 
Dont you see the lack of visual appeal in the photo you posted as an example?


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## MultiTankGuy

Dis...

Guess I'm really very much more a plant keeper than a fish keeper. I have a basement full of these "Terraphyte" tanks, see the attached. I like the idea of the fish supporting the plants and visa versa in a balanced environment. I do have a lot of Comets and Goldfish in large, standard tanks, with the regular aquatic plants, and I like the look of those, but they take so much more work. I've been keeping the conventional tanks for quite a few years. But, the idea of never having to do a water change in a large cube full of water is just too interesting to me. I have to dig into it. Thought someone else might be as interested, but possibly not.

M

https://imgur.com/CsfQ9TH
https://imgur.com/NqW63P3


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## Discusluv

Yes, I imagine that the water changes do take more work. Actually, I would say they do. 

However, as primarily a fish keeper, I have very demanding, wild, rare fish that I want to see: their behaviorism's and beauty. That is what has kept me in fish-keeping for the last 30 years.,
I have selected even more demanding fish than most: discus, geophagus, soft-water species that demand low organic load ( ie frequent water changes required). I also have UV Sterilizers that I run 24-7 to assist me in keeping bacteria low.

Your method sounds like it could work, if I gave up my aesthetic expectations, visibility, etc...

Likewise, the person who has planted tanks would have to give up similar aesthetic expectations.

It is good that you have shared your methods and set-ups and in no means wish to imply that it doesn't have its value. Some will be inspired by it. But, most will find it inapplicable to their goals.


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## dukydaf

MultiTankGuy I think that by this time the approach you are suggesting is well enough described and that most members have enough to make their mind. I would just want to ask you to honestly and actually answer the questions below. I won’t comment on your answers, but interested in what they are.

1.	What is your goal with this tank? (Give an answer and then ask yourself again But why ...(insert previous answer)?x2) https://imgur.com/e3OSqdR
2.	When would you say an aquarium needs an water change? What indicator(s) would you use ? Not necessarily the type of tank you suggest


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## MultiTankGuy

duk...

Glad to answer whatever question you have about the tank. It's different, which I like. After 15 years or so of keeping the standard tanks everyone else keeps, I thought something different might be nice. The goal was to see if I could keep fish healthy and reproducing by using a more natural means of filtering the water. Actually, some of the tanks I have like this are very pretty, I think. Yes, the first ones I set up don't look that good, but they maintain a balanced water chemistry and the fish and plants are very healthy. These tanks never need a water change, ever. I kept a 20 G "Terraphyte" tank for three years without changing the water. I thought I'd try multiple, large tanks to see if the system works as well and it seems to.

I keep large, standard tanks without the house plants and change half the water weekly. I still like to keep a lot of Goldfish. As for why, I already learned quite a bit about the standard tanks after 15 years and thought the "No Water Change" tank would be interesting. I understand it's not your thing, but it might be somebody's.

Keep the questions coming. I'm never really too busy to answer.

M


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## dukydaf

Thanks for the answer, hope you don't mind some follow up questions as some aspects are not clear to me.

I understand the need to.explore some new approach. If I understood you correctly the goal is to keep fish healthy and reproducing in that setup. What species of fish though? Any specie? Is laying eggs enough or do they need to be able to grow the fry in that aquarium? 



MultiTankGuy said:


> The goal was to see if I could keep fish healthy and reproducing by using a more natural means of filtering the water. M


More natural compared to what? And what exactly do you mean by more natural? Using organic material? Less human intervention? Looking like nature? 




MultiTankGuy said:


> I keep large, standard tanks without the house plants and change half the water weekly. I still like to keep a lot of Goldfish. As for why, I already learned quite a bit about the standard tanks after 15 years and thought the "No Water Change" tank would be interesting. I understand it's not your thing, but it might be somebody's.


Yes, the second question was asking about these tanks. What determines the water change here? What parameter or combination of parameters? Time, water color, debris accumulation, nitrate, tds,. PH, temperature, sick fish?


Thanks for your time.


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## MultiTankGuy

duk...

This tank system should work with any freshwater fish species. By natural filtration, I mean by means of the Aglaonema house plants. I do have mechanical filtration going as well. You need a back up filter at night, when the tank lights go out and the house plants rest. As for the standard, Goldfish tanks, I perform large, weekly water changes. I don't worry about the organic material that collects on the bottom of the tank. It dissolves and I remove the old water and replace it. I use sponge filters in these tanks. I'm fortunate to have good tap water. The pH is around 7.2 to 7.4.

M


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## dukydaf

@MultiTankGuy thank you for the clarifications. 

So if I understood you correctly the goal of that setup is to be able to keep ANY fish healthy and reproducing in a setup which uses
- no water changes (only top-offs),
- no substrate vacuum cleaning
- has some sort of mechanical filtration
- uses _Aglaonema sp_. house plants

Are there any other limitations or specifications of the system that I omitted ? 

Besides goldfish, guppies, platys, Corydoras and a four year old Pleco did you try to keep other species ? Which others? Which species were you able to breed in these aquariums already? And it will help to clarify if by breed you mean your goal is that the fish lay eggs or grow a large % of the eggs into adult fish in the same aquarium .

Regarding the other tanks, if I understand you correctly you do a time based water change ( every week). So just because a week passed.


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## MultiTankGuy

duk...

Yes, to all of the above. I don't believe there's a limit on what fish you can keep in the "No Water Change" tank. I don't vacuum the bottom material in these tanks, because it dissolves in the water and the nutrients sustain the "Ag" plants. The mechanical filters are kept to filter the water at night, when the house plants rest. 

I haven't tried other species, mostly those that are particularly hardy. Though, I believe you could use any you wanted. There have been fry from the Corydoras, Platys and Guppies. The fish appear to reproduce on a regular basis, which makes me think the water conditions are good.

I have noticed the "Ag" plants don't do well in my Goldfish tanks. I'm guessing it's because the house plants are subtropical and don't like the cooler tank water. Without the plants to filter out the forms of nitrogen, I have to perform large, regular water changes to remove the dissolved fish waste. Goldfish are larger than tropical fish and produce more waste. The weekly water changes remove most of the dissolved fish waste before it can build up in the water. The waste material that's left in the tank is diluted to a safe level in all the new, treated tap water.

M


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## Tiger15

The no water change, plant filtration system has put into practice in a fish farm. Charles Clapsaddle runs a ornamental fish farm in Texas in a green house where winter can get cold, so avoiding water change can save money in heating the water. He does not provide any mechanical filtration of the fish water, and use mangrove type of plants to purify the water. He has written articles on no water change system in fish magazines and I heard his presentation a few years ago in my fish club . Here is an article of his fish farm.


https://www.victoriaadvocate.com/ne...cle_efb441c1-2e21-5d48-9d2c-3ea3d032ffde.html


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## MultiTankGuy

TPT...

A critical part of the no water change system is the removal of dissolved waste material from the fish. The bulk of this job falls on the house plants. So, they must receive quite a bit of light and for a long period every day. I have my tank lights on timers set for 12 hours on and 12 off. You can have a longer photoperiod of up to 14 hours. Once the lights go out, the plants will rest. They'll continue to use the nitrogen, but not as much. This is why we have the beneficial bacteria living inside the tank on all the surfaces. Especially, the crevices in the lava rock. I added a couple of dual sponge filters or a large internal filter in my tanks to increase the area for the bacteria and to maintain a high oxygen level in the water. Between the plants and the bacteria, there is no trace of ammonia or nitrite and the nitrate tests never exceed 20 ppm.

M


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## dukydaf

MultiTankGuy said:


> duk...
> 
> Yes, to all of the above. I don't believe there's a limit on what fish you can keep in the "No Water Change" tank. I don't vacuum the bottom material in these tanks, because it dissolves in the water and the nutrients sustain the "Ag" plants...
> 
> I haven't tried other species, mostly those that are particularly hardy. Though, I believe you could use any you wanted. There have been fry from the Corydoras, Platys and Guppies. The fish appear to reproduce on a regular basis, which makes me think the water conditions are good.


Thank you for your answer and detailing your goals. 

Like I said I will not comment on them, others can decide on their own if the method your proposed achieved your goals or is good enough to achieve theirs.


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## MultiTankGuy

*No Water Changes, ever.*

TPT...


By now, your "Terraphyte" tank should be up and running well. The roots of the "Ag" plant should be taking in the ammonia and nitrite from the fish waste faster than the bacteria colony can, so there can be very little nitrate. You've likely noticed there's a considerable amount of evaporation, because the tank is open to the outside air. 


If we're not ever going to change the tank water, we only want to replace water lost to evaporation with RO or distilled water that's mineral free. Minerals never evaporate, so by using mineral free water, there's never a toxic build up of them in the water.


The minerals the fish and plants use can be replaced by feeding the fish a variety of food. I have several brands and types that I put together in a blender and grind to a powder. My fish are fine with this. If you like, you can add some frozen foods too. Sally's San Fran is a good product.


M


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## f-fish

What great setup ... clearly somebody who has a serious bout of MTS and after many many years of watching others still keen on sharing pictures and experience, willing to experiment and never stop learning. 

Very good and inspiring.

Later Ferdie


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## MultiTankGuy

*No Water Change Tank*

Hello TPT … 

By now, your Chinese evergreen house plants should be producing even more blooms than when you kept them as ordinary house plants. My plants have grown much larger than is normal with a constant source of nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium and the trace elements. By simply feeding your fish a variety of foods, the plants will remain healthy and with nothing more than periodic trimming to remove old, yellowing leaves, they should maintain pure water conditions in your fish tank for many years. 

M


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## IntotheWRX

MultiTankGuy said:


> Hello TPT …
> 
> By now, your Chinese evergreen house plants should be producing even more blooms than when you kept them as ordinary house plants. My plants have grown much larger than is normal with a constant source of nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium and the trace elements. By simply feeding your fish a variety of foods, the plants will remain healthy and with nothing more than periodic trimming to remove old, yellowing leaves, they should maintain pure water conditions in your fish tank for many years.
> 
> M


you are a Si-Fu of planted tank the internet does not really know about

what do you think about aquaponics?


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## MultiTankGuy

*No Water Change Tank*

Into...


The idea of combining aquaculture and aquaponics is really fascinating. Both fish and plants can grow together in one system. I guess I'm doing the same thing, though on a very small scale.


M


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## Jade Tyto Alba

Multi Tank Guy,

I want to compliment you, both on your aquariums and on your very courteous discourse on this thread. I discovered this forum and your thread when I randomly learned about aquariums that some people call natural planted tanks, Walstad method tanks, or various other names. I started researching them more, and I was considering starting a low-tech tank using live aquatic plants, no mechanical filtration, no mechanical injection of oxygen or carbon dioxide, and just allowing the plants and fish to establish a cycle. I share your philosophy of enjoying the natural ecology, and unlike many posters on your thread I think using such a method can display both the fish and the plants beautifully. I didn't intend to create a terraphyte tank exclusively as you have because I wanted to rely on submerged aquatic plants to supply oxygen rather than an air pump, but from my research I have learned that many other aquarium hobbyists incorporate terrestrial plants whose roots will grow in water as a supplement to their natural setup.

After reading your thread from start to finish, I am very discouraged by the rudeness other posters displayed toward you. I understand some individuals might have different tastes or different goals with their tanks, but several posters explicitly stated their belief that your aquariums were "ugly" or "a mess", and I think that was inexcusable. It is one thing to have an intellectual conversation about whether this method is functional (which I believe you demonstrated quite capably with your testimony and video evidence that others simply refused to believe), but it is quite another to openly insult you. They should be ashamed of themselves. If they had questions about how this method works, then by all means it was appropriate to ask them. If they decided your method was not for them, then at most I would expect they would say they preferred a different approach and then stop commenting in a thread that had no interest to them. Instead, they chose to actively put you down.

As I said, I came to this forum because of my own goals for a natural planted tank and I mistakenly assumed that a forum called "The Planted Tank" was surely the place for me; however, now that I have seen the character displayed by the majority of people posting on your thread, it has made me reconsider whether I want to be part of this community. Again, I commend on you on never sinking to the level of those individuals who chose to be so hateful. In the face of their insults, you steadfastly maintained your dignity and even continued to politely reply to their repeated attacks when I would have much more quickly abandoned the forum. Good work.


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## JMCMark

It can work and it can run for more than 12 years. 20 years I think and more. I haven't done it myself, but check out the fish store Ocean Aquarium in San Francisco. They defy everything that we are taught about in this hobby. All of his fishes look healthy and amazing. Most of them are breeding as well. His plants are thriving to its max potential and he even uses aquaponics. From what I've seen he uses a lot and i mean a lot of plants and a very very deep substrate. Even his betta jars have a deep substrate and no water changes at all and all his bettas are doing good. Not even a single sign of fin rot. Crazy, but amazing. It really woke me up that the aquarium hobby is really simple.


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## roadmaster

My experiences with keeping planted tanks(successfully) only spans ten years.
My experience with many of the tropical fishes extends back nearly four decades.
I noted fairly early on that birthrates,number's of successful spawns,were tied directly to water quality or a lack thereof.
Water changes for me,,produced best results over long periods of time with respect to number's of fishes produced in my affair's and overall longevity or survival of both adult fishes and fry.
I have let planted tanks run on their own for up to three month's with no visible issues but I fear my habit of changing out a portion of water each week or by-weekly is deeply entrenched and reinforced by positive result's over fairly wide range of tropical fishes including Discus.
Love to see tanks of any sort that can sustain themselves over long periods but might not be so sure as to declare that all fishes might thrive in such systems without a few year's of observations with...and without much intervention.
Opinion's vary.


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