# Wasserpests cheap auto water change



## ginnie5

cool idea......wondering how much persuading I would have to do to get dh to do something like that for me..........


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## Wasserpest

It comes down to saving time. I usually spend *at least* 4 hours every Sunday to drain, refill, prune, scrape and fertilize 3 tanks. With the water change reduced to opening a ball valve, this time is cut considerably, which _might_ be a good reason for your other half to help you set up something like this.


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## endparenthesis

So with that tiny hole being the source of the new water, it fills slowly enough that the temperature probably doesn't matter much?

What about dechlorination? Do you have well water?


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## toofazt

Where did you get the $9 float valve?


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## Wasserpest

endparenthesis said:


> So with that tiny hole being the source of the new water, it fills slowly enough that the temperature probably doesn't matter much?
> 
> What about dechlorination? Do you have well water?


The self-piercing saddle valve is adjustable... you can drip, trickle, flow or blow with the turn of the little lever. 

There's a couple of things about dechlorination. First off, I didn't use any dechlor for two years because there isn't much added where I live, and apparently they don't use Chloramine. With adding water very slowly I never noticed any stressed fishies. Now I am adding Prime, just to be on the safe side. If I continue my once a week water changes, I will just add the correct amount of prime when the changing begins.

If I go to daily water changes rather than weekly, I need to think about it a little more. If they are small enough (say 10 gallons per day in a 100 gal tank) I don't see any issues as long as our water provider doesn't use Chloramine (got to call them and find out if there are any future plans for this).


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## Wasserpest

toofazt said:


> Where did you get the $9 float valve?


Here!

blablablablanowIgottheminimumcharacterlimitforpostingthis.


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## Naja002

Glad to see You are making progress on this.....

Please do us all a favor and keep track of every dime of cost, so the next person will know before they decide whether or not to do this.... :thumbsup:


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## Wasserpest

Will do! Waiting impatiently for the float valve to come in. Fast Big Als shipping. :icon_roll


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## toofazt

When you get the float valve, could you take some pics of the setup? I don't really get how it works. Thanks.


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## Wasserpest

Definitely. I'll also do some MS Paint drawing, that's sometimes easier to grasp than a photo of some dark equipment corner. 

Even now, without the float valve, water changes are more funner.  Open a lil ballvalve to drain the water, then open the saddle valve to fill 'er up. Just need to remind myself to turn it off again.

Still waiting for the float valve. I love Big Als, takes them only like 3 weeks to get something to you. This is how you learn to become patient!


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## Wasserpest

Even Big Als orders arrive one day, and as soon as I got the float valve, I thought about ways to attach it to my tank. Drilling a big hole into one of the sides wasn't an option, so I drilled some holes into the tank rim and the valve itself, and connected the two as shown.

Interestingly, it seems like the way I attached it gives me a perfect level in the tank... without further adjustments. This kind of dumb luck always worries me. There is a tiny leak between the black and white connectors, which I can fix with some pipe tape around the threads or let it drip as another way of auto topoff.

Can't wait for my next waterchange!!!


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## Wasserpest

Naja002 said:


> Glad to see You are making progress on this.....
> 
> Please do us all a favor and keep track of every dime of cost, so the next person will know before they decide whether or not to do this.... :thumbsup:


So... the refill side is complete, and cost me less than $20 (icemaker kit, and float valve)

The drainage side cost was a few dimes for a plastic T and the hose barb (inline with XP3 outlet), and I had a good length of vinyl hose laying around, for $5 you should be able to get that.

Now I can decide how far I go on the outlet automatisation. Right now, I open a little dripvalve and the water drains into some holding tank. 

My though is to add another float valve to the tank where I keep the drained water, so each time I remove water from it I get a tiny little automated water change. Like removing 6 gallons a day... every day... that would give me about what I am changing now weekly.

At this point water changes are effortless, and I can take my time to finetune things further.


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## toofazt

Could you hook the float valve up to smaller diameter hose... Like airline hose? Becuase I would like to use the float valve on my ro water holding tank.


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## Wasserpest

Definitely, that is what it is really made for, refilling RO tanks, and it connects to airline tubing via a compression fitting.


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## Naja002

Glad to hear its working.....

If You do the math: On daily water changes-You need to change considerably more water per day than the equivalent per week.

In other words, on a 100gal. tank, if You change out 50% (50gal) then You have done a 50% water change. But if You turn right around and change out another 50% (50gal)--You've only changed out 75% of the original water in the tank.....If You are dosing EI--then You need to determine how many gals per day will equal "50%/Wk". And its not as simple as 50gals on a 100 gal tank.

That's just one of the reasons that I am going to go with 1-2 water changes per wk, as opposed to 7.

Have You determined the margin of error for the float valve...?


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## Wasserpest

You are right with the water changes, but this is the fun part, figuring out how to do it in detail. Right now I can do it either way, daily little bits, or weekly 50... I'll see how it goes.

With mechanical devices, reliability is an issue. I am concerned about that. I have very hard water, and over (little) time, there will be calcium deposits on the float valve, which might keep it from closing completely :icon_eek: 

After one night, the tank level is PERFECT. I'll need to monitor if, over time, the valve gives a little and the water level rises.

Next time I have $100 laying around somewhere, I might look into turning this all electronic, like what we checked out earlier....


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## jimjim

Wasserpest, you is a genyus. I recently gave my nice new shiny oak floor a real good wash ;-( when I acidentaly left the filler valve from the RO machine on. My wife was a little put out when she woke up in the morning to find water all over the floor. When I read your thread I figured it would save my marriage and I dont have to sleep with one eye open anymore. See you've saved my life and my marriage!!! ..... I just got my float valve from F&S and hooked it up to the RO machine, works like a charm!...Thanks, Jim


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## Wasserpest

jimjim said:


> you is a genyus.


I'll take this as a complyment! Thanks!

<<WP out saving more marriages>>

:flick:


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## Wasserpest

I am having trouble with the mechanical float valve. It doesn't seem to completely shut the water off, which makes it dangerous to use...

So I decided to do the next step and use a float _switch_ connected to a sprinkler valve instead, like described by toofazt! Unfortunately I am having problems locating a suitable 24V transformer.

Planning to not attach the switch inside the tank, but have a separate container with the switch connected to the tank via vinyl hose. To prevent light getting blocked out by the switch. Still working out the details...

*Is it safe to use brass connectors in our tanks?* Searching didn't give me good answers, except that brass has copper and copper is bad for shrimps. But does brass leach copper? And the fact that water lines are made out of copper, how do shrimps survive this?


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## daFrimpster

I am using a 24volt relay and transformer from a furnace for my reef auto top off setup. I have been told 24v is the standard in furnace control circuitry.


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## Naja002

> Is it safe to use brass connectors in our tanks? Searching didn't give me good answers, except that brass has copper and copper is bad for shrimps. But does brass leach copper? And the fact that water lines are made out of copper, how do shrimps survive this?


From everything that I have read on these boards and my limited experience--Yes, brass is safe. The only thing I seem to have problems with is Clams--and I kill them with dosing--Go Figure....

I'm assuming that Your tank is not drilled--so make sure You setup a good, reliable over-flow...

Also, Sprinkler valve controllers are 24v--they are made to work with the sprinkler valve You bought, and by running 2 wires--You can use it for more than one setup....They should have them were You bought the sprinkler vavle, but they will probably run You +$25.


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## Wasserpest

Seems like HD usually has 24V transformers in the sprinkler isle... they were out though. I checked a couple of hardware stores and only Ratshack had something close (30V though) but I didn't want to spend $24 when I can get something for half that.



Naja002 said:


> I'm assuming that Your tank is not drilled--so make sure You setup a good, reliable over-flow...
> 
> Also, Sprinkler valve controllers are 24v--they are made to work with the sprinkler valve You bought, and by running 2 wires--You can use it for more than one setup....They should have them were You bought the sprinkler vavle, but they will probably run You +$25.


I have no experience with overflows, so I would monitor this for a couple of weeks to see if air starts to break the syphon.

The controller is a good idea too... maybe I can tweak it somehow to control the drainage side, while the refill is controlled by the switch... always something to improve.


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## Wasserpest

Yesterday I got lucky, the 24V transformers were found on the clearance table. I hooked it all up, and only need to connect it to the XP3 outflow. I'll show some pics of the various components later.

This is how it's supposed to work:

I am collecting "used tank water" for watering the yard. If I would just drain it things might be easier, but here is what I want to do: during the week, I use up the water in my "reservoir". There is a mechanical float valve, and a ball valve. On water change day, I open the ball valve, and the tank water drains into the reservoir until the float valve shuts it off.

As soon as the water level drops by about an inch, the refill starts to kick in, powered by a sprinkler valve which is connected to the float switch in the tank. Once its done draining and refilling the float switch turns off the valve and things are quiet again.

So it is all inline plumbed except for the float switch, which after all I positioned inside the tank instead of in another container with overflow. Keeping it simpler. There are only 2 wires going over the tank rim, so no big deal.


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## exmt

Looks good Wasserpest. Now is that thing labeled "reservoir" for new water or used water? 

And that canister filter only has one tube going into it... I would assume that is the output...:icon_roll


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## Wasserpest

Yep, reservoir is "used water", to be used for watering the yard. Fresh water coming right out of the tap. I know it seems kinda backwards and maybe difficult, but I can't see myself sending the nutritious tank water down the drain.

Canister filter outlet, you are correct. That way it is under (gentle) pressure which powers the drainage.

Yesterday I glued and pushed it all together, leak-free the first time, yeah!

One thing I am wondering is how quickly I should refill it. The quicker, the more likely it is still draining, and the float switch might turn off the refill, but then a little more is still draining, but not enough to trigger the float switch. If I refill slower, so it is done draining completely before it fills up again, the sprinkler valve will be "on" for extended periods (2-3 hours) and I am not sure if this is going to be a problem, since they are "usually" running only maybe 10 or 20 minutes. The solenoid pulls about 3 Watts, so that's not too bad.


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## Naja002

You could incoporate a simple light switch into the circuit with the fill float switch. In short, when the light switch is turned-off(by You): The Float switch doesn't work--allowing the drain to complete. Then flick the light switch--float switch works, opening valve and closing it when fill is complete. You could leave the light switch "On" accept when specifically doing a water change.

Would probably cost $3-4 with box and cover. Not including Shipping, Time, Gas, Wear-n-Tear, Tax, Tag, Title, Etc.....

2 wires--no big deal.


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## Wasserpest

Naja002 said:


> Would probably cost $3-4 with box and cover. Not including Shipping, Time, Gas, Wear-n-Tear, Tax, Tag, Title, Etc.....
> 
> 2 wires--no big deal.


You sound like a contractor, hehe... still have a couple of switches laying around, so that shouldn't be a problem. Do you think having the valve powered for 2 or 3 hours in a row (once per week) would be bad for it or wear it out prematurely?

So here is a little cost summary for the switched water change:

Float switch from WM - $17
24 V transformer from HD (Clearance) - $10
Irrigation valve - $11

Total of $38. About twice as much as the mechanical float valve, but much cleaner solution.


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## Naja002

> Do you think having the valve powered for 2 or 3 hours in a row (once per week) would be bad for it or wear it out prematurely?


Honestly, I don't know. Call a sprinkler supply company in your area and ask them. Look under Irrigation in the yellow pages.



> f I refill slower, so it is done draining completely before it fills up again, the sprinkler valve will be "on" for extended periods (2-3 hours)


Not sure I understand, but once you add a light switch, your system will become Drain and then refill. So that should cut the refill time down some--I assume....


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## Wasserpest

Think I got it licked now... :bounce: 

Here is the float switch, which closes a circuit when the water level is down about 1.5 inches, and interrupts the circuit when the tank is full:










This is the sprinkler valve, connected to the T that goes inline on the canister outflow:










And here is the whole thing connected:










Just tried it out, works great. During the week, I use water from the "reservoir". The drainage from the tank is connected via a ball valve to a mechanical float valve. To do a water change, I just open the ball valve, water drains until the float valve stops it, and then refills, controlled by the float switch. I can do better things while this is going on. Then (even the next day) I close the ball valve so removing water from the reservoir will not cause the tank to drain.

The refill is slow enough for the tank to finish draining before the float switch turns off.

If you would just drain the old water, you could add a second valve for the drainage side, and either via timer, or irrigation computer, make the whole deal fully automatic.

For me, turning the ball valve is just as easy.


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## Ktulu_JL

WP, you crack me up dude. I finally got around to reading this thread.

Good work! Do you have an update since 4/23 ??


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## Wasserpest

:biggrin: Thank you for asking.

It works great! During the week, I use up the "used water" in the reservoir. Sunday, I open a ball valve, spritz some Prime into the tank, and relax.

Takes about 3 hours to drain and refill, slow enough to not cause major temperature differences. The solenoid gets moderately warm, we'll see for how long it will last.

I can't believe I haven't done this earlier.

Thanks again to Naja002 for helping me figure this out.


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## Ktulu_JL

I know you posted your concern about that solenoid quite a few times. Did you look up the warranty and/or lifespan of it? Check the quality of the power you have supplying it too. I don't think a solenoid should get "too" hot. _Most_ (some?) of those huge quantity parts can last a very long time.

I do sandblasting and painting quite a bit, and have always used cheaper regulators, water collectors, compressor accessories, etc. I think I have only replaced one cheap part so far. All the paint guys laugh at me for using the cheaper stuff, but the products look solid, so I get em... Except for impact guns!!

Did you consider getting a "screamer" to protect your system for the day it does fail? I am sure that one of those parts will eventually go bad. A "screamer" would wake you up if you are home at least...?

I wish I had the balls to install this system that you already have deployed. However I think I am just going to get a large sump instead when I finally deploy the 120 gal


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## Wasserpest

Yeah, the real concern isn't having to replace the solenoid one day, but the possibility that it stays stuck open and I get a wet carpet (again :hihi: )

It doesn't get hot, just warm. I think it's normal, and won't damage any of it. I will do some research... specs for these solenoids and such.

"The Screamer" might be a worthy investment. :icon_idea


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## Brilliant

Wasserpest said:


> You are right with the water changes, but this is the fun part, figuring out how to do it in detail. Right now I can do it either way, daily little bits, or weekly 50... I'll see how it goes.
> 
> With mechanical devices, reliability is an issue. I am concerned about that. I have very hard water, and over (little) time, there will be calcium deposits on the float valve, which might keep it from closing completely :icon_eek:
> 
> After one night, the tank level is PERFECT. I'll need to monitor if, over time, the valve gives a little and the water level rises.
> 
> Next time I have $100 laying around somewhere, I might look into turning this all electronic, like what we checked out earlier....



Hello,
Nice work you got going here. Its great that your sharing it with everyone. Thank you.

I have a float valve like the one in the kit you linked to.
What does that kit do? I read it and tried to figure it out.
Does it only fill something up to a certain level?!!?!?

I am using a top mount float valve on a storage tank for my RO water, I use a solenoid valve on a timer to prevent excess "waste water" from flowing all the time... I previously used an auto-shutoff valve plumbed into the RO unit to stop "waste water" but it acted up supposedly because I kept shutting off the source water.


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## Wasserpest

You know, I am not sure how that kit works. Tried to figure it out from the little picture, here is a better one:










but not being familiar with the specifics of RO I am not sure how it works or if it would work for refilling a tank. With the simple float switch/irrigation valve combination being much cheaper I didn't pursue that further.


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## Naja002

Hey Wasserpest,

Glad You got it worked out. I am upgrading my tubing to 1/2" ID for both drain and Refill, and I will end up adding one of those float switches. May not exactly fit what Scolley and I were working on, but that System will work anyway. I think I'll just be happy with the peace of mind that the float switch provides.

I have everything to do my 55 and 29--except the float switches themselves. Now I just need to find the time to re-run the bigger tubing.

I should be able to drain 50% of the 55 in about 10 min and refill in 25min. We'll see.


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## Wasserpest

Hehe, I am not trying to get the water change done in record time. Since I don't have to do anything to it, it's okay taking a couple of hours.

With the float switch, it's just two thin cables going over the tank rim, easy to hide, even if it goes against your "all in-line" goal.

Pondering to do the same thing to my 36 gal tank... Need to find a splitter for the water connection (Y) and then drill some more holes. Since I only change water every 2 or 3 weeks in that tank, it's not that urgent. But it sure would be convenient!


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## scolley

Hey Wasserpest - this is too cool that you got this worked out! :thumbsup: I'm sorry I didn't see this until now. You are just one innovation after another!

I trust you are gearing up for a long-term progress report - letting us know how it is working?

FWIW - there is something to be learned here IMO... You got this up and working in an apparently reasonable amount of time. Granted I'm trying something a bit tougher, I still don't have anything working. yet either. So there is something to be said about getting it working! That's the metric. There's no credit going to people saying "still haven't gotten the kinks out yet".

Getting it done is what counts!:thumbsup:


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## Wasserpest

scolley said:


> I trust you are gearing up for a long-term progress report - letting us know how it is working?


Actually my progress report was post #32... not really long-term, but I don't expect anything to change. It's actually all quite simple, my only concern was keeping the solenoid engaged for a few hours, but since these are very commonly used ones a) they should last a couple of years and b) would be easy to replace.

Thanks to the help and suggestions of board members this project was completed in short time, and I hope this write-up will help others that are tired of manual water changes to set up something similar. Most will probably just drain the "waste water" and use a reservoir for new water, which is sorta opposite of what I did.

Definitely let me know if you have questions about this!


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## scolley

Wasserpest said:


> Actually my progress report was post #32... not really long-term, but I don't expect anything to change.


No, I mean LONG term. I've already come to figure out that something that I've hooked up and am happy with for 4-8 weeks is nothing like what I might say about it after a year. Take autodosing for example...


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## Wasserpest

I see... I'll report back in a few years :smile: unless, of course, anything changes in the meantime.


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## SammyP

you're crazy man! auto-water change?!?! you're a genius! i think next you need to design and all-in-one do-it-yourself robot that you can program to feed fish, dose ferts, do water changes, trim the plants, clean the filter and order more supplies.  

seriously though, thats a fantastic idea.


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## Betowess

Wasser, Just saw this thread.  I also cracked up when I saw your completed photo behind the tank with all the geewhiz DIY handydude contraptions. Way to go...LOL. What a gas. My water is nearby too, but too soft. I suppose I could do auto fill the holding container, but that only takes a 20 minutes and my rio 2100 pumps 35 gallons in about 4 minutes. But still, to just throw a switch and go get a cold one. Dude, you rock!:thumbsup:

Is that the drain line running through the wall near the bottom of the sheetrock? Did the Mrs. like you drilling holes in her wall?


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## scolley

Betowess said:


> Did the Mrs. like you drilling holes in her wall?


Bob - sorry pal, you just failed an intelligence test.

It's all about understand the requisite order of events... ASK and DO. Clearly you though ASK came first. Sorry. :hihi: Some us know to move straight to DO. :icon_wink


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## Betowess

scolley said:


> Bob - sorry pal, you just failed an intelligence test.
> 
> It's all about understand the requisite order of events... ASK and DO. Clearly you though ASK came first. Sorry. :hihi: Some us know to move straight to DO. :icon_wink


Yeah, you probably have a more comfortable couch than mine. :icon_roll 
Actually, I did move my 65 in thinking she wouldn't notice the difference between a little 50G and a 65G. The footprints the same. I think the plants and fish gave me away. 

The long and short is, my new air-mattress foam bed is definately more comfy than our old couch. So much for my stealth.:icon_redf


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## Wasserpest

You guys are so funny! That reminds me, once I saw that really cheap good deal 10 gal setup and bought it, and then afterwards spent about twice that on a dinner to make up for it. :icon_roll 

Regarding holes in walls, actually I am the one who is more worried about that. I even hesitate to use nails for picture frames etc. So drilling the holes through the wall was an exciting first for me (and I need to find a way to close them a bit better around the hoses... at least when Winter comes).

You know, my wife was thrilled when I told her that instead of 4 hours juggling with the garden hose through the entire house, now it's down to opening a ball valve, and perhaps cleaning the glass and some pruning. (Yeah yeah I know YOU do your water changes in 12.5 minutes... but I take a long time refilling the tank. To each his own.)


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## Betowess

Wasserpest said:


> (Yeah yeah I know YOU do your water changes in 12.5 minutes... but I take a long time refilling the tank. To each his own.)


Well, I spend a fair while tweaking my water to "sort of" match the tank's water (over 36 hours in the container etc). Otherwise I'd go slow too. I don't think the fish dig the current put out at 9 gal/min... Burning water, so to speak.:icon_roll But it sure feels GOOD to me!


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## jgc

Sorry, but could not help but think of putting a pair of 1G oldwork outlet boxes - one on each sides of the wall to run the 2 hoses through... Face plates could make it look pretty sweet.


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## Wasserpest

The professional would do it that way, no question.

I stick to my two 1/2" holes for now :smile:

I sprayed some foam into the holes, now the hoses don't move around anymore and it is airtight too, no drafts in Winter.


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## jgc

My wife would kill me if I drilled a hole in the wall to run aquarium plumbing, knowing how much I cringe whenever a nail is put into a wall to hang a new picture on. 

My only chance would be if it pretty much was invisable - oh like an electrical outlet...


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## scolley

jgc said:


> Sorry, but could not help but think of putting a pair of 1G oldwork outlet boxes - one on each sides of the wall to run the 2 hoses through... Face plates could make it look pretty sweet.


To better accommodate auto water changes on my tanks, a nice faceplate for those outlets would go a LONG way to making the wife happy, to be sure!

Anyone know about a reasonable faceplate that could accommodate a plumbing connection - preferably threaded?


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## Naja002

Just use a blank faceplate and drill the hole that You need--just be careful not to crack it. They are only about $0.15 each. Thread the hole if You need/want to....

I ran the drain end on my system out through a cable/phone combo faceplate.

If I remember correctly they also sell them with a hole in them for coax cable, but that size hole may be worthless and harder to drill out without cracking.

The box is unnecessary. There is no reason to cut a big hole in the wall in order to install the box. Just mount the faceplate to the wall with a couple screws and either nylon wall drillers or molly bolts. Even just a couple of decent wood screws installed gently would do the trick.


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## Wasserpest

Naja002 said:


> The box is unnecessary. There is no reason to cut a big hole in the wall in order to install the box. Just mount the faceplate to the wall with a couple screws and either nylon wall drillers or molly bolts. Even just a couple of decent wood screws installed gently would do the trick.


Exactly my point... why carve out a large opening when a 1/2" hole is sufficient?

Keep in mind while my setup looks messy, it is on the right side of the tank, hidden by a properly stained piece of wood. 










So if I would have needed to, hiding my drilling adventures would have been simple.


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## scolley

Wasserpest said:


> Keep in mind while my setup looks messy, it is on the right side of the tank, hidden by a properly stained piece of wood.


Messy? You are making a joke. Right?

IMO that is an outstandingly neat looking arrangement. You should be proud, and I hope my wife doesn't see it.:icon_wink


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## Wasserpest

Nah Steve, I was referring to the last pic in post #30. My point is, the holes and "tech stuff" are all hidden so there is no need for fancy face plates... different thing in an open living room, of course.


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## vidiots

Wasserpest,
My auto water changer uses the exact same solenoid valve you have. One problem I ran into with it is the cheap 24VAC power supply that came with it died after a very short service life, and I had to replace it with one from Radio Shack which cost me another $20.

Mine is connected a little different than yours. Mine supplies house well water to my sump tank. I drilled side overflows into my 20gal high sump tank near the top and ran them into a drain pipe. So all I have to do is add water and the excess will overflow. I have my soleniod plugged into a timer which comes on for 8 minutes per day which does about a 10% daily water change.

The second issue I have with it is if there is a loss of line pressure when the pressure comes back on the soleniod valve will open even though there is no power to it. I did some fault testing with mine before leaving it unattended. I figure this could happen if the power were to go out and the kids were to turn on a sink or flush a toilet while the well pump was without power. The bright side is that someone would have to be home for this to happen.

Something else I tried was to connect one of those shower valves between my solenoid valve and the house water supply. My figuring was that I could use the shower valve to roughly set the incomming water temperature near the tank temperature and just use the soleniod to turn it on and off. This had one problem and that was leaving the shower valve on with output blocked by the soleniod in the off state still allowed the house Hot and Cold water to mix. When my wife tried to take a shower she couldn't get very hot water because the cold water was flowing though my shower valve and into the house Hot water supply.

To fix this for the moment I have the shower valve turned all the way to the cold position which shuts off and isolates the house hot water. I think I may try getting check valve for the hot water line. Another thing I may try is getting a second solenoid valve and connecting both before the shower valve. 

As it is now I like it a whole lot! I too spent hours every weekend maintaining my tanks with most of it being water changes. This is a fantastic time saver. Now I do nothing for water changes, it's all automatic, which leaves me more time for cleaning glass and pruning plants whenever I feel like it instead of during the weekly chore.

All my plumbing comes up through the floor from the basement and into the tank stand so it is all out of sight.

Here are some current Pics: (sorry one is a bit fuzzy, not a photographer here)

http://users.adelphia.net/~vidiots/SumpOverflowDrain.JPG

http://users.adelphia.net/~vidiots/SumpWaterSupply.JPG


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## Brilliant

vidiots said:


> All my plumbing comes up through the floor from the basement and into the tank stand so it is all out of sight.
> 
> Here are some current Pics: (sorry one is a bit fuzzy, not a photographer here)
> 
> http://users.adelphia.net/~vidiots/SumpOverflowDrain.JPG
> 
> http://users.adelphia.net/~vidiots/SumpWaterSupply.JPG


Nice looking setup!!!
I wish I had a basement :icon_cry:


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## Wasserpest

Hi vidiots, thank you for sharing your setup. What size of tank do you use this on?

One of my goals was to fully recover any "used" water, without this I could have done things slightly different.

The solenoid/sprinkler valve came without power supply, just bought a separate one in HD, they sell them for ~$12, but maybe the Ratshack one is more reliable, not sure.

I am not familiar with well pumps... I assume they sense a loss of pressure and then kick in? That is a scary thought, that the solenoid could open without being powered... hope that doesn't happen while I am out. When I go on vacation I will manually close the saddle valve that supplies the water to the tank, just to be sure...


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## vidiots

My tank is a 72"x24"x24" 180gal tank. As for my well pump, I dunno exactly how it works, just know that it doesn't work when we loose power. 

I just discovered this forum, and I like it a lot, because it seems as if many of you are playing with making many of the same things I am and it appears to be highly active. Just reading through gives me tons of new ideas to try for future projects.

At the moment my fully automated 180gal FW fish/plant tank is the thing I take great pride in. I have invited a number of people over just to show off my "Tim The Toolman Taylor" model fish tank. (Oooh, Oooh, Oooh) My non-aquarium owning friends think I am completely knuts for spending about $4000, and hundreds of hours of my time over the last several months on putting together a fish tank. My wife is OK with it, because it keeps me out of trouble and she knows where I am. 

I went all out in the DIY department for this tank with three main goals, reduce maintenance to next to nothing, make it look as nice as possible by hiding absolutely all the hardware out of sight, and to make it as flexible as possible incase I later want to change things around. I'll post more details and pics, and hopefully others can benifit from what I learned the hard way and even better maybe they can suggest some improvements.


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## Brilliant

Well pumps typically work with a bladder tank and pressure switch.

There is a switch hooked onto the bladder tank, when the bladder tank losses pressure because of used water...the pump kicks on to restore the pressure with more water. You probably get a little bit of water after the power goes out but once the bladder tank has exhausted its energy it wouldnt flow without the help of the powered pump fueling it.

This may be different then your setup but thats how the well systems work that ive seen.


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## Wasserpest

vidiots said:


> I went all out in the DIY department for this tank with three main goals, reduce maintenance to next to nothing, make it look as nice as possible by hiding absolutely all the hardware out of sight, and to make it as flexible as possible incase I later want to change things around. I'll post more details and pics, and hopefully others can benifit from what I learned the hard way and even better maybe they can suggest some improvements.


Please do post details about your tank (in a dedicated thread). Reducing maintenance is a beautiful thing, increasing the time you have to just enjoy your tank(s). I keep thinking about how to make things easier, but with a low budget in mind.


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## vidiots

Brilliant said:


> Well pumps typically work with a bladder tank and pressure switch.
> 
> There is a switch hooked onto the bladder tank, when the bladder tank losses pressure because of used water...the pump kicks on to restore the pressure with more water. You probably get a little bit of water after the power goes out but once the bladder tank has exhausted its energy it wouldnt flow without the help of the powered pump fueling it.
> 
> This may be different then your setup but thats how the well systems work that ive seen.



That sounds about right, with no power if you try to use the water you just a small amount until the pressure in the water lines is gone.


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## Naja002

Just a word to the wise for anyone using the sprinkler type valves--I just dealt with this:

Be Certain that the valve closes _*completely*_, so that no water is getting passed it when it is "Off".

I now have this set-up on 3 tanks and it works Great with 1 minor problem: Bits and pieces of pvc preventing the diaphragm from closing completely and allowing water to continue past--into the tank and on to the floor.

This should only be an initial setup problem, but just beware--*Anything* that prevents the Diaphragm from sealing completely will allow water to continue to flow.....I suggest installing a Ball-valve (which I did) prior to the sprinkler valve: A) it can be turned on and off for the water change, B) it will prevent water from continuing to flow.

Here is a link to Rainbird---page 7 is a Troubleshooting Guide:

RainBird Manual-PDF File

The principles should be pretty much the same from valve to valve.

I took mine apart, as suggested, and found many tiny pieces of pvc from the installation. *Beware.*


.


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## Shawn_KY

Any updates on this Wasserpest? Anything changed or happen in the last 8 months or so? Are you still happy with this project?


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## Wasserpest

Hey Shawn, thanks for asking, this reminds me that Steve had earlier asked about long term experience.

Yes, this has worked out nicely, and I haven't made any big changes to the way it works.

I noticed that the drainage water sitting in the vinyl hose for a week or two gets a strong smell of rotten eggs (H2S). Since I don't want that in the 55gal tank that is the recipient of my used water (it houses fish), I added another T with a ball valve which I run for a minute or so to flush out the line.

Other than that, knocking on glass, no problems. The solenoid/float switch combination works great, driven by the 26V irrigation system tranformer.

I must say though that I had a few wet surprises... you can manually override the solenoid. Sometimes I do that to fill the tank a little more. And then, once in a while, I forget that the water is running, and the noise of water dripping down onto the carpet is what makes me run around very quickly. I should put some sort of timer on it I guess, but where is the fun in that when you can have a wet carpet instead?


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## eon17

how come the photos are gone?????


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## Wasserpest

Yeah I know, the famous TPT image hosting, "Unfortunately this service has been discontinued."

Attachments still seem to work, but the direct links went b-bye. Need to transfer them to the Photobucket and relink from there. :redface:


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## PDX-PLT

Naja002 said:


> The box is unnecessary. There is no reason to cut a big hole in the wall in order to install the box. Just mount the faceplate to the wall with a couple screws and either nylon wall drillers or molly bolts. Even just a couple of decent wood screws installed gently would do the trick.


Well you may need to make a hole larger than the hose in order to be able to fish it through the wall, depending on what you have to do to install the hose.

If you're doing to make a hole the size of an electrical junction box, rather than an electrical box or just screwing the faceplate directly to the drywall, I'd suggest installing a low-voltage "box", a.k.a. "mud ring", that the faceplate can then securely attach to:










If you need something bigger for fishing room, you could put in an icemaker connection box, or even a clothes washer box. I also picked up an access cover in Lowes that would give a big (6"x9") opening, that would be neatly enclosed with the cover.


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## Wasserpest

eon17 said:


> how come the photos are gone?????


Images are back, in case anyone cares. :thumbsup:


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## Naja002

PDX-PLT said:


> Well you may need to make a hole larger than the hose in order to be able to fish it through the wall, depending on what you have to do to install the hose.


Right, but the hole really doesn't need to be much bigger at all and nowhere near the size of an outlet box. I have 4 hoses/tubes going through walls right now and a 5th one through a floor. It can be a bit of a headache or come right together--just depends.....:thumbsup:


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## Wasserpest

A fellow planted tanker sent me a pm, figured we can answer it here in the open, no secrets really... :wink: 



> Hi Wasserpest,
> 
> I was reading your post about the auto water change setup you put together for your tank and wanted to do the same thing. I was wandering how this has worked out for you? Also, do you think a check valve should be installed between the sprinkler valve and the canister output? If I understand this setup correctly, you are actually using the powerhead of the canister to drain the tank? And everything is hooked up on the output of the canister (drain & fill)?
> 
> Sorry about all the questions.
> Thanks for your help-----Brian


So far this has been working flawlessly. If I would do it over again, assuming I'd connect it directly to the tap water, and want to keep the "used" water somewhere, I would do it exactly the same. I had some doubts about the solenoid, but I think it will last just fine.

I don't think a check valve is needed, the solenoid closes pretty well, and I don't think contamination would be an issue, and nothing will really flow back against water pressure.

And you are correct, connecting this to the (pressurized) outlet of the canister filter takes care of the draining without any need for additional pumps.

Let me know if you should have any other questions.


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## PRESTON4479

Thanks for the response Wasserpest. 

I plan on plumbing the fill side right into my water supply and plumbing the drain side ride into a drain rather than a tank. 

I am going to try to do it all with pvc and make a manifold that can be put right inline with one of my canisters.

Brian


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## Wasserpest

If you do that, consider automating the drain side as well. This won't work with sprinkler solenoids, you will need a different kind that doesn't need full water pressure to work. Then, you can easily set a timer to do daily or weekly water changes without you touching _anything_.


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## PRESTON4479

Wasserpest said:


> If you do that, consider automating the drain side as well. This won't work with sprinkler solenoids, you will need a different kind that doesn't need full water pressure to work. Then, you can easily set a timer to do daily or weekly water changes without you touching _anything_.



I'm confused. The sprinkler valve won't work? Isn't this the same thing you used? I just wanted to automate the filling and do the draining manually via 2 ball valves that I will install in the manifold. This way I can direct the flow of the aquarium water by closing one valve and opening the other valve to drain. When the draining is done I close the drain valve and open the other valve redirecting flow back to the aquarium. Then turn the switch back on and it will begin to fill automatically.

Since I will be connecting directly to the plumbing in my house won't the sprinkler valve have full pressure? 

Hope you don't mind, but I borrowed your drawing and made a few changes to give you a better idea of what I am talking about. The 2 x's are where I plan to install ball valves to redirect the flow of the canister and drain the tank.

I understand this does not automate both sides of it, but it is still much easier than getting the python out.:icon_smil 

Thanks for your advice

Brian


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## Naja002

I think Wasserpest interpreted your intent the same way I did: 1x sprinkler for incoming water, 1x sprinkler valve for drain.

With your recent explanation, you shouldn't have any problems. Sprinkler valves need a minimum pressure to "crack" open the diaphram--otherwise they just won't open and let the water flow. The house water supply has enough pressure, so using a sprinkler valve for the incoming water supply is fine and should work without a problem.

The problem using a SV on the drain portion is creating enough pressure to "crack" open the valve/diaphram. *BUT* you are planning on a semi-auto system with a ball-valve drain setup.

What You are planning will work.

Using a SV on the drain portion--generally--won't....

HTH


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## PRESTON4479

Ok, I understand. That is exactly what I am planning to do. 

I did not know the sprinkler valve requires pressure. I am glad you told me that because it had crossed my mind to put one on the drain side also. But decided to just go with the semi-auto set up for now.

Sorry about the misunderstanding.

Brian


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## Naja002

NP, that's what we are here for......:tongue: 

You can eliminate the ball valve between the drain and incoming water and just use the one on the drain line. It won't hurt anything to have and use both, but there really is no benefit to the one.

Once You open the drain ball valve the water is going to flow that way. what, if any, water that goes up toward the tank is irrelevant. Having the 2nd ball valve *may* decrease your drain time by a few *seconds*, but that's it. Of course, that is dependent upon tubing size used, etc.

Since You are doing the drain portion manually, which means you will have to be around and be available to close the ball valve, etc--you will be much happier running a 1/2"ID drain line than anything smaller. Took 7mins for me on my 55g to drain 50%. 

You'll probably also want a loud countdown timer. Its easy to walk away and forget that the tank is draining. Well, it is for feeble minded folks like me anyway.....:hihi: 

HTH


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## PRESTON4479

Naja002 said:


> Since You are doing the drain portion manually, which means you will have to be around and be available to close the ball valve, etc--you will be much happier running a 1/2"ID drain line than anything smaller. Took 7mins for me on my 55g to drain 50%.
> 
> HTH




I haven't decided yet but I was leaning towards a 5/8" drain line. Thanks again for the advice. Glad to know that what I am planning to do will work and has already been tested. 

What would we do without this forum and its members:icon_smil 

A few more questions. What do you think about putting a hydor inline heater on the fill side? Would this even make a difference? Is your fill line hooked to the cold water line or the hot water line?

Brian


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## Naja002

PRESTON4479 said:


> I haven't decided yet but I was leaning towards a 5/8" drain line. Thanks again for the advice. Glad to know that what I am planning to do will work and has already been tested.


5/8" is even better imo....




PRESTON4479 said:


> What would we do without this forum and its members:icon_smil


I don't know about anybody else, but I would have just kept going around in circles, bouncing off the walls like I had been doing for +30yrs..... :hihi: 



PRESTON4479 said:


> A few more questions. What do you think about putting a hydor inline heater on the fill side? Would this even make a difference?


I've asked this basic question before and honestly--I don't see the point. If you are going to add an inline heater just put it on the canister line abouve the drain and fill lines. That way it heats the tank generally, and has whatever positive effect on the incoming water. If you actually sit down and think about it--its all going to come out in the wash......




PRESTON4479 said:


> Is your fill line hooked to the cold water line or the hot water line?


Initially, it was on the cold only. Now its tapped into both, but since I am using a charcoal filter setup for dechlor (low flow= ~10gph) its mostly still just cold water. I could tweak it around and all. I could even incorporate gate valves and get it set pretty good. But for the stuff I'm doing--it really isn't important....


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## PRESTON4479

Naja002 said:


> Initially, it was on the cold only. Now its tapped into both, but since I am using a charcoal filter setup for dechlor (low flow= ~10gph) its mostly still just cold water. I could tweak it around and all. I could even incorporate gate valves and get it set pretty good. But for the stuff I'm doing--it really isn't important....


So do you think it will be alright if I just use the cold water line?


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## Wasserpest

If you use one of those self-piercing dealios, then you can adjust the rate with which the water refills the tank. I have mine set very low, and even in Winter there is no big temperature drop. It takes maybe 3 hours to drain and fill (drain fast and fill slow) but I don't see any point in trying to set speed records. When it is drained, I like to do the weekly front glass cleaning, plant pruning, or go make a coffee or do something else... no need to supervise anyway.


I would still suggest you look into a solenoid for the drain side. They aren't that much, and it would be so much better if you don't have to sit there and remember when to close the drain valve. You won't even have to be there at all... just use a timer to do automatic water changes once, twice or x times a week.

Mine is set up a bit different as I drain the water into my low tech tank, that's why I can't really do it that way.


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## Wasserpest

Besides the 100gal tank, I have a 10gal and a 36gal tank in my little home office. After connecting the 100gal tank to the tap water, I figured I could do the same for the other tanks.

Finally got around to it. Added an icemaker splicer kit (basically a brass compression T), and a shutoff compression valve to turn the water on & off.

After that I have a little 3 way valve where I can direct the water to either (10gal or 36gal) tank or shut it off. Vinyl hoses transport the water to its destination.

Makes water changes easier... I just hang my overflow contraption into the tank, turn on the tap water, and the change water drains into a bucket. Easy enough for smaller tanks.


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## shane3fan

With this water change system, do you still use a gravel vac from time to time?


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## Wasserpest

Only on rare, special occasions. Sometimes in older tanks, if the growth diminishes, perhaps it is time to add some substrate fertilizer. And before doing that, I vacuum the area a bit.

If you have certain algae, or cyanobacteria (BGA) vacuuming can be a method for mechanical removal.

To remove larger plants (swords), pulling them up a little, then vacuuming the area, can reduce the dust storm that otherwise develops. Or when removing and replanting ground cover, the area might have accumulated detritus, and before pulling them out it might be worth to clean up the area a bit.

If you have big poopers like Plecos, vacuuming helps to reduce their heaps excrement.

But normally, I don't vacuum established, healthy, understocked tanks.


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## tremendotron

Wasserpest said:


> If you have big poopers like Plecos, vacuuming helps to reduce their heaps excrement.


Vacuuming? Hell, I need a _rake_.


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## WhiteDevil

Do you have a diagram of this?

I wont be using my tap supply but will be using a 45g ro/tap mix holding tank, I am sure it works the same way but I am more concerned at the tank level of this. I have a sump on my tank and I blow thru 1-2 gallons every 3-5 days and am getting tired of the gallon jug refill method.

Tremen, you need some MTS snails. I havnt seen a speck of dookie since I got them in the tank. kinda gross but hey if they like it, let em eat it all.


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## Wasserpest

See post #24 for the diagram. If you want to refill evaporated water from a holding tank, and the holding tank is above your sump, you could just add a simple float valve like I used originally.

If not, put a pump in the holding tank, and a float switch into the sump.


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## WhiteDevil

ok thanks, I musta missed it, printed out and put on the project board. Thanks

I might just suck it up and drill a hole in my brand new wall to get the water from the holding tank to the sump.

Now this float valve, how does it attach since it will be in a sump and not the lip of the aquarium?


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## Naja002

WhiteDevil said:


> I might just suck it up and drill a hole in my brand new wall


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## familyman03

Out of sheer morbid curiousity would a cooler float not be the same thing and probably a whole lot cheaper. Also are you turning this into an automated top-off if so what do you have in mind for a secondary fail safe?


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## 150EH

I think I want to try something like this, I am setting up my tank with new plumbing in small steps, most of the big items have been purchased and some of the work has been done. 

My 150 sits in the room next to the garage, so I have installed a CPVC intake/outlet connected to 2 2217 canisters, so right now I can screw on my Python under the tank, turn a valve and it will drain, if I hook the other end to the sink it gets filled, but during this time I turn of my filter & in line heater & in line CO2 reactor plus use the quick connect shut off on each canister intake side so the house water pressure won't push water back through the filters, so this may not work but see what you think.

So now to complete the WC plumbing I need to extend my plumbing through the wall into the garage make a 90 and go though the front block wall of the house so the fertilized water will dump into my flower bed, easy.

On the outlet side I need to do the same thing but go to my RO/DI holding tank which will have a pump and heater installed along with a shut off float as the tank gets full. Up to this point I was going manual so I purchase 2 remote power outlet controls that would allow me to turn on that pump with a key fob.


So this is what I need to do

1. shut off tank completely
2. by pass filters somehow, or else I'll have a plume of sediment every night
3. drain tank - 10 gallons nightly
4. fill tank
5. return power to tank
6. keep sleeping while this happens

I know it's going to be simple but for the moment it escapes my mind.

Edit: it's comming to me I just had to say it out load, to you, with my keyboard.


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## 150EH

You know I wanted to do 10 gallons a night mostly for water quality and the health of the inhabitants, but to be honest all the extra cash to keep me from hitting a power switch, a ball valve, and a key fob, just might be over the top.

I'm not saying it won't happen because I did figure it out and I would just need 2 automated valves and a controller and it could be done and I like the thought of my fish getting 10 fresh ones daily, it would probably increase spawns etc.

But for now I'll chill and ponder rather than spend and attach.

Wasser your threads always get me so inspired to go above and beyond, so I think we should change your screen name to either "Buzz Lightyear" or Inspector Gadget" thank for making me think.

BTW: it's nice to see you wearing green again!


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## Wasserpest

Thanks! Buzz Lightyear back in green. :icon_mrgr That pink was starting to gnaw on my confidence.

This cheap water change was always meant to be done semi-manually. I had to open up something to drain, turn it off (don't forget!) and then wait for it to refill (although it would shut off automatically, hopefully).

Back then I did weekly water changes. With my new 250gal tank, I wanted daily WC's, and I want them to go on while I am away for a few weeks. That's why I did the passive overflow, and I would recommend that to anyone who doesn't believe that two valves will always be reliable.


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## jweis

Reading this thread has helped me tweak the design of my own soon-to-be semi-automated water changing system. 

One thing that I have noticed frequently in this thread is the reminder to turn off the drain valve. There is an easy, fail safe way to not worry about this. Just put a couple of elbows on the intake pipe that is in the aquarium. It will look like an "U" with one of the ends clipped a bit (or a "J" with the short curved part a bit taller). Anyway, the water will only drain to the top of the short bend. 

See the attached diagram of my work-in-progress plan. In my case, the water reservoir is fresh water that has sat until it becomes room temperature. I plan to route my old, used water out to the flowerbed. Fortunately for me, the wall behind my tank is an exterior wall, so I with one hole I have easy access to the outside.

Also I am interested in constructive criticism of my design. Hopefully I will be able to do this right the first time without a big puddle in my living room. I am the wife, so I would be mad at myself!


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## Wasserpest

I don't understand the drain side - won't the filter suck in air? Also with a loop like that, you need to be aware of air building up and interrupting the drain function.

And don't underestimate the pressure in the canister outlet hose, you would need quite a beefy pump.


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## sketch804

what a great idea, subscribed so I can do this at a later time when I move soon.


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## jweis

jweis said:


> Reading this thread has helped me tweak the design of my own soon-to-be semi-automated water changing system.
> 
> One thing that I have noticed frequently in this thread is the reminder to turn off the drain valve. There is an easy, fail safe way to not worry about this. Just put a couple of elbows on the intake pipe that is in the aquarium. It will look like an "U" with one of the ends clipped a bit (or a "J" with the short curved part a bit taller). Anyway, the water will only drain to the top of the short bend.
> 
> See the attached diagram of my work-in-progress plan. In my case, the water reservoir is fresh water that has sat until it becomes room temperature. I plan to route my old, used water out to the flowerbed. Fortunately for me, the wall behind my tank is an exterior wall, so I with one hole I have easy access to the outside.
> 
> Also I am interested in constructive criticism of my design. Hopefully I will be able to do this right the first time without a big puddle in my living room. I am the wife, so I would be mad at myself!


I ended up changing the final design a bit. I went with simple! It has been working flawlessly for a few months now. 

Here is the parts list: 

•http://jehmco.com/html/safety_siphon_aquarium_drain.html*$13.75*
•http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BJM9G8/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER Rio 10HF HyperFlow Water Pump - 660 GPH *$41.28*
•http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/CompactUVSterilizer.html *¾ inch hose barb inline with ½ inch hose barb ‘T’ with valve for UV Sterilizer-*$11.99*
•http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumPumpTubing.html#cart Premium Ball Valve *$6.99* 
•http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001Q9EFUK/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER Weatherproof Outdoor Outlet Remote Control Converter Kit *$14.90*​ 
•Water Hold ContainterHome Depot $20

•TUBING​

•Total= 108.91


One final note. The extra "up bend/arm" in the PVC apparatus isn't really needed. However, if one wants to have a variable drain depth (without having to watch it) then the pivoting arm piece is useful. Jehmco will provide the drawing if you want to build it yourself. I ended up using their drawing and going to Lowes to buy black PVC tubing (found in the lawn sprinkler section) and building my own armless version. The nice thing about the black tubing is that it screws together so no need for smelly PVC glue. Also the black color blends in nicely. The cost for parts at Lowes was under $8.

I've attached a picture of my aquarium. The siphon is located at the back right corner, behind the crypt balanese. It is completely hidden.


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## newbieplanter

jweis said:


> I ended up changing the final design a bit. I went with simple! It has been working flawlessly for a few months now.
> 
> Here is the parts list:
> 
> •http://jehmco.com/html/safety_siphon_aquarium_drain.html*$13.75*
> •http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BJM9G8/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER Rio 10HF HyperFlow Water Pump - 660 GPH *$41.28*
> •http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/CompactUVSterilizer.html *¾ inch hose barb inline with ½ inch hose barb ‘T’ with valve for UV Sterilizer-*$11.99*
> •http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumPumpTubing.html#cart Premium Ball Valve *$6.99*
> •http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001Q9EFUK/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER Weatherproof Outdoor Outlet Remote Control Converter Kit *$14.90*​
> •Water Hold ContainterHome Depot $20
> 
> •TUBING​
> 
> •Total= 108.91
> 
> 
> One final note. The extra "up bend/arm" in the PVC apparatus isn't really needed. However, if one wants to have a variable drain depth (without having to watch it) then the pivoting arm piece is useful. Jehmco will provide the drawing if you want to build it yourself. I ended up using their drawing and going to Lowes to buy black PVC tubing (found in the lawn sprinkler section) and building my own armless version. The nice thing about the black tubing is that it screws together so no need for smelly PVC glue. Also the black color blends in nicely. The cost for parts at Lowes was under $8.
> 
> I've attached a picture of my aquarium. The siphon is located at the back right corner, behind the crypt balanese. It is completely hidden.



Very nice outcome! How long did the fissedens take to grow across that DW like that?


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