# Poor Mans Auto Dosing, Take III



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Inspired by Marcels thread about cheap autodosing, I started thinking about how to cut down the time to mix fertilizers and dump them into the tank. From reading the thread, *Marcels method * didn't seem to be simple due to the problems with the head pressure.

So fast forward a few months :wink: and onto the *Wasserpest method*.

I started playing around with a little powerhead (AS606). While head effects its output as well, it is very easy to reduce these effects by using some kind of output restriction on the end of the fertilizer feed line. This builds up some pressure within the tubing, negating the change in head pressure due to the solution going down.

Anyway, you will need the powerhead, a digital timer, an empty gallon jug, and some tubing. Here's a picture:










To reduce the power of the powerhead, and get some good mixing, I used an X (was out of T's... lol) to branch off one airline that points downwards into the solution. 

The next step is fun: you need a watch to time minutes/seconds, and then let it run and mark the reduced level on the jug after every minute. This is the amount of solution that will be dosed... You can see my marks on the jug. I ended up with 24 marks. This means, for the duration of two weeks, I can dose every day twice, with the exception of one day (Sunday... is my tank maintenance day). Of course I can change that later to one dosing a day, double the strength of the solution, and it will last 4 weeks. 

It's easy to make adjustments by adjusting the diameter of the output:










Here is the completed setup with the macro jug on my 100 gal tank:










I made two of those jugs with identical pumps, one for macros, one for micros. It has been working for a week now, flawless... No long term experience yet, but I don't forsee any problems.


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Now since I got this working, I wanted to do something similar for my 10 gal tank. MagicMagni gets the credit for this method which I modified a little bit. The *MagicMagni method * has three shortcomings in my mind: The contents of the bottles are not mixed, pressure builds up in the bottle because the end of the lines is restricted, and it's difficult to adjust. So here is the product of a few hours toying around with drip irrigation parts:










Bought a 9.99 air pump with two outlets. The air line goes all the way down in the bottle, to get bubbles to mix the solution while it is running. There are four 1/2 gal drippers built into each pressure line, three are reducing the pumps output volume, and one is an open end which also "wastes" some air, and reduces the pressure buildup in the bottles.

Why is pressure in the bottles bad? Because the air volume is compressed much more than the solution, so if the bottles are almost empty, there is a long time of dripping after the pump turned off, until the air is all decompressed. So you end up with a higher dosing volume with an almost empty bottle compared to an almost full bottle. Not good.

Therefore I left the end of the fertilizer line unrestricted, this way once the pump stops the flow stops as well. Inside the bottle there is a check valve which prevents water from siphoning back into the pump. Like with the powerhead method, you just time minutes and mark the bottles to see how much solution is dosed, and adjust if necessary.

Here is the completed setup, ready to be connected to the timer:










I guess similar to switching from DIY to pressurized CO2, going from bi-weekly (me) or daily dosing to this automated solution feels great... (and is much cheaper than the CO2 switch). For those of you who prefer watching their tanks to mixing and squirting fertilizer, consider a similar setup...


----------



## actioncia (Jun 9, 2005)

Wow this is awesome man. Okay so you use the apple juice bottle just to experiment that tube is where the dosing takes place.Do I really need irrigation parts? Regards,


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Got one reply!!!!! Appreciate it, man roud: I thought I needed to type slower...

You are correct, the apple juice bottle was just to catch the water while measuring how much solution was dosed out of the bottles.

Here is why I used this array of irrigation drippers... The air pump puts out way too much air if it isn't restricted somehow. In other words, it would probably empty half of the bottle in one minute, instead of just a small volume. There are many ways to adjust all of that, this is just one suggestion.

Obviously it would be better to get a pump that lets you adjust output volume! But $9 for a pump with two outputs is hard to beat :wink:


----------



## jgc (Jul 6, 2005)

Have been thinking that a second needle valve on my regulator could be used to preasurize an auto doser. could count bubbles in fert jug to adjust rate. Added benifit is the fert mix would be at near saturation levels on co2 :icon_bigg


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Hey, that's a great idea. Were you thinking of a continuous dosing setup? The possibilities are limitless... I see a *JGC Method * on it's way... Love it roud:


----------



## jgc (Jul 6, 2005)

was thinking, not sure if I will ever get arround to it though. 
a 5mm bubble is about 1/15cc. If I could get the count down to a bubble every 4 seconds, that is still 1cc a minute - 1.4 liters a day (about a gallon every 3 days). If the needle valve can cut it more than that, it might work.

I am living life without a needle valve, but understand that this is asking a lot of one. Course if you are running a soloniod - that would really help things out.
--- 
please excuse the 1001 wags in that estimate. have to wonder how much solubiltiy of the c02 will mess with this idea. if c02 really does disolve as easy as one thread mentioned, this will not work at all untill the solution hits saturation. Regardless, if it does disolve easily, the drip rate will increase as saturation is approched. but would be for a wonderful experiment.


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

A solenoid would fix these issues, but then we are almost out of the "Poor Mans" range.


----------



## jhoetzl (Feb 7, 2005)

Darn, and I thought the coffee maker was going to get involved in this project somehow! (see first pic .

Nifty system/mods...

What kind of mix is in the solution bottles?

GW's stuff?


----------



## actioncia (Jun 9, 2005)

Okay I can probably use air check valve to adjust air pressure since I do not have any irrigation parts. As for timer, it only need to be on for the time it takes to consume that amount of volume. For example, if it takes 5 hours to consume 5ml then that is the time you would set the time. No need to type slower just people have not dicover such good things. Regards


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

jhoetzl said:


> Darn, and I thought the coffee maker was going to get involved in this project somehow! (see first pic .
> 
> Nifty system/mods...
> 
> ...


SAECO rocks!! :icon_bigg I am not going to convert it into a micro doser...

Working in a nursery, I have access to the macro nutrients. For micros I use Flourish & Flourish Iron. I don't dose that much, so it comes out to about the same $$$ if I get stuff from GW.


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

actioncia said:


> Okay I can probably use air check valve to adjust air pressure since I do not have any irrigation parts. As for timer, it only need to be on for the time it takes to consume that amount of volume. For example, if it takes 5 hours to consume 5ml then that is the time you would set the time. No need to type slower just people have not dicover such good things. Regards


Typical check valves aren't good for adjusting tasks, since they block flow in one direction and let it through reversed. 

The trick is to get something adjusted that low. Like in your example, 5 hours to consume 5ml, is going to be pretty hard to find something that doses that little volume in that much time.

Maybe there are airpumps that can be tweaked to output a relatively small amount of air. I tried putting mine on a dimmer, but that didn't seem to work. Perhaps there are pumps that allow you to increase the distance between the swinging magnet and the wires, therefore reducing the pump output.


----------



## actioncia (Jun 9, 2005)

So, those irrigation parts are readily available in my local stores? Regards,


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Not sure what "local" means to you, but Home Depot and Lowes have a mind-boggling selection of them. You can get them for various drip rates (1/2 gal/hr, 1 gal/hr etc). So the possibilities are limitless.

In no way I want to say that using lil drip irrigators is the way to go. It's just what I had available, and it's widely available to many.


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

It has been working very well for two weeks. Dosing very closely to the originally measured amount. 

The only issue that I have is that there is some growth (fungus/bacteria) in the micro bottle. Any way to keep this to a minimum, without harming fish or rendering the micros useless?


----------



## MiSo (Oct 26, 2005)

noob here....

what solution exactly are you dosing?


----------



## jgc (Jul 6, 2005)

is your micro bottle in the dark? If so not sure of a solution (perhaps adding some magic potion (like a 3x od of excel) to your micro bottle?)


----------



## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Wasserpest - though I've already got my autodosing set up, I think it is great that you are actually working out an economical alternative! roud: 

I hope you are going to keep posting your progress, for if so, and if this proves successful long term we might see a lot more autodosing. And if that is the case, I really look forward to dialogs about autodosing protocols and regimens. For instance:

1) Is it better to auto-dose with a level target? This implies that after each water change you have to perform a "gap dose" for the new water.

2) Do you dose micros on the same day as micros? And if so, do you dose them daily (obviously in smaller doses)?

3) Do you do periodic testing to understand your plants uptake rates set your auto dosing levels accordingly? Or do you do adopt something closer to an "autodose EI", with target assumptions and allowing water changes to keep this from getting to out of line?​These are just a few of the questions that I've had to decide my own answers to over the last year or so of autodosing. I welcome the possibility of a larger group of autodosing members so we can begin to hash some of this out.

Please keep up the good work. And please keep us informed of your long term progress! :icon_bigg


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

MiSo said:


> noob here....
> 
> what solution exactly are you dosing?


Micros: Flourish and Flourish Iron
Macros: KNO3, K2SO4, KH2PO4


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

jgc said:


> is your micro bottle in the dark? If so not sure of a solution (perhaps adding some magic potion (like a 3x od of excel) to your micro bottle?)


It's not in the dark. Hmmm... does keeping them in the dark prevent this kind of growth? I could try that...

Yep, I was thinking of adding something antifungus to the solution... not sure what though. Is Excel good for something like that? I thought about using a drop of bleach?? Or some medication? Of course, I want to make sure it doesn't turn the iron to rust or something like that.


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

scolley said:


> 1) Is it better to auto-dose with a level target? This implies that after each water change you have to perform a "gap dose" for the new water.


I don't want to overcomplicate things. It would be easy to do with a timer like I am using... they allow for up to six programs per day, and I am only using two right now. So you could dose every day twice, but the day after water change 4 times! However, I don't think the absolute level is all that important, as long as the overall proportions are okay and nothing has bottomed out completely. 



scolley said:


> 2) Do you dose micros on the same day as micros? And if so, do you dose them daily (obviously in smaller doses)?


Yep, like described earlier, I have them on the same timer, and dose daily (right now twice daily for the 100 gal tank). I used to dose twice a week, so I just multiplied what I dosed by four, which gives me a 2 week supply.



scolley said:


> 3) Do you do periodic testing to understand your plants uptake rates set your auto dosing levels accordingly? Or do you do adopt something closer to an "autodose EI", with target assumptions and allowing water changes to keep this from getting to out of line?


Yes, I test for N and P. Last week I did and P looked perfect in both tanks, while N was too low in the 100 gal tank. I had noticed a little more BGA growth on the substrate... which is another visible proof that the N went too lean. So I adjusted the concentration in the bottle. 
I am just too curious to not test. But I guess after a few weeks of steady results and good plant growth I will probably only test when there is some sort of issue.


----------



## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Wasserpest said:


> I don't want to overcomplicate things. It would be easy to do with a timer like I am using... they allow for up to six programs per day, and I am only using two right now. So you could dose every day twice, but the day after water change 4 times! However, I don't think the absolute level is all that important, as long as the overall proportions are okay and nothing has bottomed out completely.


I'm sorry Wasserpest, I should have been more clear... I meant a "manual" gap dose. I've have great success with autodosing in the past, (my current 75g stabilizing problems not withstanding :icon_redf ), and one of the things I've vacillated back and forth on is the protocol...

1) Dose a level amount daily, and never any additional manual doses. Such as an extra manual dose to close the gap of what was lost after a water change. This implies that you auto doses is all you need, but you do that with the understanding that your ferts will be lowest right after a water change, and highest just before.

- or - 

2) Dose a level amount daily, with the aim of holding the tank on a given ppm target for each fert. This means that after a water change you must do a manual dose to replace what was lost. In fact, if your daily dose can hold your ppm steady, that means that you can use your manual gap dose to raise or lower your ppm's because your autodose is set almost perfectly to your up take rates. Unless you remove water from the tank (like a water change), where ever you put it, it stays.​Or that's the idea anyway. I've gone on trips for about 20 days, come home and found my N within 1-2 ppm of where I left it, and my P within 0.2.

The flip side of that luxury is, of course, that you have to dose manually after a water change.

Can't have it both ways. I was wondering how you approached this, and will be curious to see how the community approaches this is your solution catches on.


----------



## jgc (Jul 6, 2005)

I have a solution of plantex and one of macros. Both are mixed with tap water. Plantex is at 1tbs/500ml. Macro has is 1tbs/500ml of KNO3, and 1/2 of NO4(maybe). They are in white half and half jugs (non translucent plastic containers). I am not sure if it is the tap water, the concentration of the ferts, or the fact that they are not recieving light, but I have no growth in mine.

I can make no personal observation on excel, but have read some threads that made me use it as a possibly magic potion. I am probably going to buy some in the next month or so (perhaps the next hr to be honest - since I suspect I have a c02 diffecency in a tank and feel my ladder is maxed out.


----------



## m.lemay (Jul 28, 2002)

For micros I've been dosing 4ml/day, 7 days a week, via the Liquidoser. I don't add more on water change day. It's been working great for about 3 years now. Plants seem to be able to store the needed micros during the lean periods, if there are any. I'd say that 3 years is a long term study. roud: 

Marcel


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Scolley said:


> I'm sorry Wasserpest, I should have been more clear... I meant a "manual" gap dose. I've have great success with autodosing in the past, (my current 75g stabilizing problems not withstanding ), and one of the things I've vacillated back and forth on is the protocol...
> 
> 1) Dose a level amount daily, and never any additional manual doses. Such as an extra manual dose to close the gap of what was lost after a water change. This implies that you auto doses is all you need, but you do that with the understanding that your ferts will be lowest right after a water change, and highest just before.
> 
> ...


"Manual gap dose"... you can do it. Like I said, it would be extremely easy to program the timer to do this for you as well (with the kind of timers I am using). Say you add 1/4 tsp of something every day, which keeps your levels stable. Now you change 50% of the water, and figure you need 1/2 tsp to get to the previous levels. Just set the timer to dose an additional time after the water change, and now it's all automatic roud: 

I think when you go from dosing once a week or twice to daily dosing, you will notice that you need to increase the dosis a little bit, more than what you calculate... Example, if you dosed 1 tsp once a week, and now dose daily, you will probably want to use slightly more than one tsp in the solution (or more than 2 tsp if the solution lasts two weeks, etc). This goes along the lines what Marcel said, plants seem to be able to store nutrients for a while. The weekly or biweekly dosings provide them with a temporarily higher concentration, while with daily dosing you don't reach these levels.

Not sure though... 

The question is, how exact do we need to keep the levels? EI is based on overdosing, while when you autodose, you can get the levels pretty close to what you and your plants want/need. I like lower levels, for reduced biomass production :wink:


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

jgc said:


> I have a solution of plantex and one of macros. Both are mixed with tap water. Plantex is at 1tbs/500ml. Macro has is 1tbs/500ml of KNO3, and 1/2 of NO4(maybe). They are in white half and half jugs (non translucent plastic containers). I am not sure if it is the tap water, the concentration of the ferts, or the fact that they are not recieving light, but I have no growth in mine.
> 
> I can make no personal observation on excel, but have read some threads that made me use it as a possibly magic potion. I am probably going to buy some in the next month or so (perhaps the next hr to be honest - since I suspect I have a c02 diffecency in a tank and feel my ladder is maxed out.


My micro mixture is pretty low concentration, I assume... its about 3/4 of a gallon of tap water, with 12 ml Flourish and 12 ml Flourish Iron. It's got a dark urine, I mean, amber, coloration. I will watch this for a couple of weeks, and if it doesn't go away or gets worse, try covering the milk jugs. If that doesn't help, I'll look for more input... Excel might be a possibility, not sure about its fungicidal properties... according to Seachem, it helps to keep the ferrous Iron in it's reduced state, so I figure it wouldn't hurt to add some to the solution. A true magic potion? :wink:


----------



## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Wasserpest said:


> "Manual gap dose"... you can do it. Like I said, it would be extremely easy to program the timer to do this for you as well (with the kind of timers I am using). Say you add 1/4 tsp of something every day, which keeps your levels stable. Now you change 50% of the water, and figure you need 1/2 tsp to get to the previous levels. Just set the timer to dose an additional time after the water change, and now it's all automatic roud:


Yea, but then you had better make sure you do that water change when this timer expects it. If you are late, it's all messed up. That's why I stick to a manual gap dose.



Wasserpest said:


> The question is, how exact do we need to keep the levels? EI is based on overdosing, while when you autodose, you can get the levels pretty close to what you and your plants want/need. I like lower levels, for reduced biomass production :wink:


In my particular setup, I found holding daily values to 12ppm Nitrogen, 1.2ppm Phosphorus, and a targeted 20-25ppm Potassium to keep growth moderate and the tank algae free. But that's a 1 yr sample of 1 person. And the Potassium values are assumptive due to lack of good measurement tools. So based on moving Potassium values up and down until I saw signs of deficiency, I concluded that my ratio of Nitrogen uptake to Potassium uptake was 1ppm:1.2ppm. I'm sure other people's results will vary... :wink:


----------



## jgc (Jul 6, 2005)

Will post a picture of the jugs I am using when I get the chance. They are half n half jugs. Solid white - they are not the translucent milk jugs - more like the white bleach bottles, or the white tropicana bottles (and for some reason I think Tide comes in a white bottle). 

My micro is dark "amber" as well.


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I redid the airpump dosing... with all these drip irrigators it wasn't possible to do any kind of adjustment. So I ordered a couple of these: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=8165 brass valves, got 1/8x1/8 female hose barbs at the hardware store, and this is what now regulates the "bubble count". Took me a few hours to find the perfect flow, but that's nothing... now I don't have to worry about it except for a refill every two weeks.


----------



## magicmagni (Nov 7, 2003)

Wasserpest said:


> Now since I got this working, I wanted to do something similar for my 10 gal tank. MagicMagni gets the credit for this method which I modified a little bit. The *MagicMagni method * has three shortcomings in my mind: The contents of the bottles are not mixed, pressure builds up in the bottle because the end of the lines is restricted, and it's difficult to adjust. So here is the product of a few hours toying around with drip irrigation parts:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow someone's been busy. I can't believe I didn't catch this thread earlier! That's good you worked it out. I was actually able to resolve those issues on my system that you brought up so they are no longer an issue. System has been running like a clock for the last few months. It's nice not having to dose daily isn't it? ;-)


----------



## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Wasser,

Nice system. 

I don't know if you've solved the fungus growth in the trace solution yet, if not here's some info. All of this is taken from original discussions about PMDD on TheKrib's website.

To prevent fungal growth, add 0.5mL 9M HCl (hydrochloric/muriatic acid) per 300ml H2O. (Source link)

EDTA, the chelating agent used on iron in the trace mix, is known to be photosensitive once in liquid solution, and is best kept in the dark. Another person made the comment that at pH above 7.0, 80% of FeEDTA will decompose after two weeks. That may be another good reason to use the HCl! (Source link)


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

DarkCobra said:


> I don't know if you've solved the fungus growth in the trace solution yet, if not here's some info. All of this is taken from original discussions about PMDD on TheKrib's website.
> 
> To prevent fungal growth, add 0.5mL 9M HCl (hydrochloric/muriatic acid) per 300ml H2O. (Source link)


Thanks for the tip. Before I start messing with concentrated HCl, I want to try my luck with Seachem Excel. In another thread I read that the ingredient in Excel is otherwise used as a sterilizing agent. So that MIGHT do the trick, and improve plant growth along with it. :thumbsup: 



DarkCobra said:


> EDTA, the chelating agent used on iron in the trace mix, is known to be photosensitive once in liquid solution, and is best kept in the dark. Another person made the comment that at pH above 7.0, 80% of FeEDTA will decompose after two weeks. That may be another good reason to use the HCl! (Source link)


I am using Flourish Iron... not sure if the gluconate is more or less light sensitive. 
I have used the half-transparent milk bottles to better see the level during the two week dosing period. Now I am more confident that it works well, need to find some cover for the bottles. Maybe just a black plastic bag will do.

Interestingly, while there is some (minor) growth in the traces bottle, the smell of it after two weeks is still similar to a new solution. On the other hand, the NPKMg solution smells like old wet socks after two weeks. Not sure what that's all about.


----------



## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Wasserpest said:


> Thanks for the tip. Before I start messing with concentrated HCl, I want to try my luck with Seachem Excel. In another thread I read that the ingredient in Excel is otherwise used as a sterilizing agent. So that MIGHT do the trick, and improve plant growth along with it. :thumbsup:


That's a good idea! Plus, Seachem's site says:

_"Flourish Excel™ also has iron reducing properties which promote the ferrous state of iron (Fe+2), which is more easily utilized by plants than ferric iron (Fe+3)."_

So there might be some nifty synergistic effects. 



Wasserpest said:


> I am using Flourish Iron... not sure if the gluconate is more or less light sensitive.


TheKrib has a page on Iron Gluconate too. Plenty of info, but no mention whether it's photosensitive or not.


----------



## PaulieYams (Mar 19, 2006)

I did not read through the whole thread so not sure if this was mentioned....In order to prevent growth in your nutes delivery bottles be sure they are in a dark place ...if you do not have a dark place to mount them I would suggest using Duck Tape or black electrical tape to tape up around your bottles. I know some of you put marks on your bottles to easy measure each fert so all you have to do is be sure that you leave your marks uncovered by the tape....it will keep enough light out of your nute solution and inables you to still see your markings...just a thought


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

For the smaller bottles (airpump method) I use black stockings to keep them dark, for the larger ones, black plastic bags work well. 

Still trying to figure out how to minimize degradation of the fluid over time. The macro bottle develops a bad smell, the micros grow some stuff. I'll look into adding HCl and see if that helps with these issues.

Dry dosing with an automatic feeder or such would work good, plus an Eheim Liquidoser for the fluids... if money isn't an issue. Of course you are losing the top-off capability that comes with the bottles.


----------



## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

I didn't have any problems dosing everything (SeaChem) including Excel, Except for P from one clear 1 gal jug. This time though I painted it with Krylon Fusion (Plastic Enamel). I put masking tape over my marks, painted the jug and then removed the masking tape--I can see the level in the jug and the amount of light that gets in should be negligible..... :thumbsup: 

2 coats of Black for light followed by 2 coats of Hunter Green for Decor....


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

For my 36 Corner Tank, I just use one container that has everything except P, like your setup. And interestingly, this one doesn't smell, nor grows much fungus... Maybe the mixture of all those things slows down the growth and degradation?

Maybe that's the way to go... just dose P seperately once or twice a week, not that much needed anyway. I might give that a try.


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I have been pondering what to do about the longevity of the macro solution. It starts to smell very bad after only a few days. Not a problem for me since it is in an enclosed container, I am just worried that it might harm the tank inhabitants, and/or lose its effectiveness.

Adding Excel hasn't helped.

Here's what I am going to do: Set up a few solutions with the various ferts (one chemical per solution) and see which one it is that makes it smell bad.

For example, if it is the Potassium Sulfate that's causing the deterioration, switching to Potassium Chloride might resolve the issue.


----------



## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Sounds Good.

Here's some thoughts:

I have been doing the All-in-one (Except P) Auto-dosing for a bit now. Up to 3 wks on one "Setup". One of the tanks is a shrimp tank (Cherries) and another has a bunch of Ghost Shrimp in it. I haven't had any problems at all. And, No, I haven't been sniffing the bottles, (But I have been thinking a lot more about that _*Cherry Wine!!!!*_)

I just received my GW stuff, so I will begin using that as my SeaChem stuff runs out....


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Here is what goes into my ~1/2 gal solution, which is dispensed over 2 weeks:

4 TSP KNO3
2 TSP K2SO4
1 TSP MgSO4
a little bit of KH2PO4
10 ml Excel

I haven't had any problems with shrimp and fish either, it's just one of those things that make you wonder.


----------



## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

The phosphate conflicts with Iron (precipitation) and I'm not sure about with any others. If You are dosing P everyday with the rest of the stuff--it will always cause problems with the Iron you add.

From what I have learned--You are much better off to add your micros to that mix--and skip the P. Just dose P manually when your tank needs it.

Check out these threads:

why-alternate-trace-macros

And

SeaChem-Posts #5 and 6


.


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Not exactly sure what you are saying... 

I use two different containers, one for micros, one for macros. Just for that reason, to avoid Iron and Phosphate reacting with each other.

I don't think it matters if they are dosed into the tank together, the concentrations are weak, and I have never seen any problems this way.

Again, the issue is the smell that the macro mix develops after a few days.


----------



## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Putting Phosphate and Iron in tank at the same time should cause precipitation. My understanding is: That's why Macros and Micros (Iron) are dosed on opposite days with EI....

Either way, its not the best idea to dose them both together. 

I can currently get around it because my Phosphates stay a bit high in the tank--so I don't need to add any. But I wonder if the P that's already in the tank causes any precipitation with the Iron that I add....hmmmmm


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

My take on this is that the concentrations that go into my tanks daily are much lower than a) EI recommendations and b) what one would dose as one weekly dose. a) and b) might cause problems with precipitation.

Wouldn't you SEE any precipitation as a white shower? I could even add the micros on one side and macros on the other.

But again, this isn't my concern at all. If you decide that it is better to dose on alternating days, go for it!


----------



## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

> My take on this is that the concentrations that go into my tanks daily are much lower than a) EI recommendations and b) what one would dose as one weekly dose. a) and b) might cause problems with precipitation.


Its all relative. A little P will precipitate a little Iron.



> Wouldn't you SEE any precipitation as a white shower? I could even add the micros on one side and macros on the other.


I don't know, but at those low dosages--a white shower might not be enough to notice. Adding micros and macros at opposite ends of the tank isn't going to have any value an hour or less later after the filtration system/water current mixes everything up.



> But again, this isn't my concern at all. If you decide that it is better to dose on alternating days, go for it!


I Auto-dose everything< except P from one container on a daily basis. I currently don't do EI, so I don't do alternating days. I am already doing what it is that You are talking about--everything in 1 container. I rarely dose P at all, because the level stays plenty high in the tank from the fish and fish food.

This isn't about Macros Vs. Micros. Its about P Vs. Fe: Phosphorus precipitates Iron--that's just the way it is. Do it however You want, but if You are dosing Iron with P and You wind up with an Iron deficiency--You'll know why. If You dose Iron with P and don't wind up with an Iron deficiency: then maybe there will be something in there for us all to learn.


----------



## magicmagni (Nov 7, 2003)

A factor to consider is the type of Iron you are using. The type of chelation probably is a factor. I noticed a "white" cloud before when dosing large amounts of SC Flourish Iron which is Iron Glutonate?, but with Tropica master grow I do not (EDTA Iron I think?). The point is that with one I was actually seeing a more yellow growth and the other I'm seeing greener growth it seems.


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I see your point Robert, but... it just doesn't sound right to me. If a little phosphate precipitates a little iron, our tanks would be permanently lacking iron, unless the P happened to be zero.

Obviously that isn't the case, so my assumption is that it has to do with concentrations. You can not put phosphate into your dosing container that includes iron, because it certainly will lead to precipitation. If you are spooning in the stuff per EI, you get problems as well due to the higher concentrations. If I dose 12 ml Flourish Iron and 1 ppm Phosphates over the course of two weeks the concentrations are so low that no precipitation occurs in the tank, even if dosed at the same time.

Of course with all assumptions... you know how that goes.

But think about the coexistence of Iron and Phosphate in a tank.


----------



## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Wasserpest said:


> it just doesn't sound right to me. If a little phosphate precipitates a little iron, our tanks would be permanently lacking iron, unless the P happened to be zero.


Which is exactly why discussions of alternating micros vs. macros, one day one thing and the next day the other, just for the avoidance of problems mixing the two is bunk IMO.

It's time to bury that myth if you asked me... no basis for it, for exactly the reasons you stated above.


----------



## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

> But think about the coexistence of Iron and Phosphate in a tank.


I was thinking about it as I was typing it--and in ways it doesn't make any sense....But I'm not a chemist and I don't claim to fully understand all the ins and outs of these things.

That said, Why _*Doesn't*_ the P that's already in the tank precipitate the Iron that we add...??? Many of us add little or no P--so its always there--regardless of alternating days or anything else. Every time we add Iron--the P is already in the tank--Soooo, why doesn't it precipitate the Iron and render it useless--I don't know.

Maybe:

We add sufficiently enough Iron to overcome the precipitive ability of the P that's in the tank...!?! (Yes: Concentrations). Maybe adding X amount of Plantex (or whatever) would give a Higher Iron reading on the same tank--if it was tested after being added when there were no P vs. When P was high--I don't know. Maybe, X amount of P only has the ability to precipitate X amount of Iron. Then we get into MagicMagni's thoughts on "Types" of Iron. There are different types of Nitrates (NH4, N03)...Are there different "Types" of Phosphates...? I have no idea. Is the phoshpate that naturally occurs in the tank somehow "different" than the phosphate that we dose---I don't know. NH4 occurs in the tank naturally, but we dose NO3.

Truth is: I don't have all of these answers. And _*to a Degree*_ I am just passing along what "I've Heard". *But*, that said: I have Heard it more than just here at PT. The Tech Support at SC pointed out the P precipitation issue in the thread that I referenced earlier. They are in the Aquarium chemical business and they make good products, so I am willing to factor all of that in to its credibility.

I have little doubt that P precipitates Fe. Exactly how it works and all the details of it--I'm under-educated.... :thumbsup:


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I think we basically agree  The fact that P precipitates Iron, there is no question about it. This has been proven when adding various elements together in one highly concentrated mix. Can't do that.

But, like Steve suggested, someone took this a step further and suggested to alternate days of dosing. And I don't think that is really necessary IF YOU ARE DOSING WEAK SOLUTIONS of fertilizers into the large tank volume.

If you add *one weeks *worth of P and *one weeks *worth of Fe side by side, at the same time, sure you'll see a white shower.

If you add *one days *worth of P, dissolved in quite a bit of water, and *one days *worth of Fe, also dissolved in quite a bit of water (as it happens in this autodosing setup) I think the concentrations are weak enough to prevent any sort of precipitation.

I guess this is up to you (the reader) how to do this, just like water changes, lighting a tank, or feeding your fish... everyone does it a little differently.


----------



## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Wasserpest said:


> If you add *one days *worth of P, dissolved in quite a bit of water, and *one days *worth of Fe, also dissolved in quite a bit of water (as it happens in this autodosing setup) I think the concentrations are weak enough to prevent any sort of precipitation.


Well said! And if this still worries someone... add one days worth of P, _give it a big stir _(or wait 5 minutes) and _then _add one days worth of Fe.:wink:


----------



## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Wasserpest said:


> I think


Those are the keywords....

How to do any of this is up to the individual. But P/Fe precipitation is not--that's up to chemistry. Its not subjective, its Objective.

The fact is: the 3 of us combined don't know enough about it to form anything more than opinions based upon whatever we happen to feel about whatever we happen to factor in, leave out, etc, etc, etc.

We are just going around in circles, because none of us knows the facts....


----------



## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

> Wouldn't you SEE any precipitation as a white shower?


I will add this:

I have seen it before, but not really paid much attention to it, because I guess I really didn't understand what it was. But since this conversation--it seems pretty obvious to me....

My 55gal is heavily planted, with fish, fry, shrimp, snails and clams. The 2x that I have tested it for P--they were off the chart: +3. As stated in another thread--I have just started dosing regularly and heavily (K, Iron, Mg, Micros). When I added the ferts the first 3-4 times--it clouded for a while--couple of hours. I have very little doubt now, that the cloud is the "White Shower" that You refer to and is the high P in the tank precipitating the High Iron that I added--SC 10ml=~0.2 in the 55gal., plus Flourish.

Ok, I just added SC 10ml Iron (=~0.2ppm) to the 55gal. with no clouding--that's what I thought I remembered seeing: 2 days heavy clouding, next 2 days not so bad at all and none since.

The only way I'm going to know is to test P. I did a 50% water change a few days ago--so that may have helped the P situation.

I have way too many things that I need to get done today--which I am currently not doing as I sit on these boards--procrastinating! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: So, I doubt that I will get to testing the P today, but that would be a good way to help keep from doing the stuff that I _*Should*_ be doing.......hmmmmm


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

See, that's the difference. Your P levels being 3+, mine being one tenth of that. You adding 10ml Iron, me adding 1ml Iron.

With "you" and "me" I don't mean you and me, but just any person A or B or X or Y or what.

Interestingly, after all my vehement attacking of your theory I changed my autodosing from two bottles (micros and macros) to one bottle (everything except P). LOL!


----------



## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

> See, that's the difference. Your P levels being 3+, mine being one tenth of that. You adding 10ml Iron, me adding 1ml Iron.


But think about it:

Your P is 1/10th of mine. You are adding 1/10th the amount of Iron. Your ratio of 1:10 is the same as mine. The difference is that You may not have sufficient precipitation (in absolute quantity) to _*See*_ it with your eyes. It doesn't mean that its not occuring--just that its not producing enough white cloud for you to notice or see. Additionally, Your tank is roughly twice the volume of water of mine, but the P/Fe ratio is still 1:10.

Because I am adding 10x as much to half the volume of water--I can see it from the front of the tank and from the side view.

You may still be getting a huge amount of preicipitation--in reference to the absolute amount of P vs Fe. The P may even be precipitating 100% of the Fe--who knows?

We are still at the point where we don't know enough to really debate it. And I don't forsee me having the time to research it in the near future. BUT I think this shows/indicates that the Iron we add _*Will*_ be precipitated by the P that is already in the tank, in whatever form it is. How much?--I don't know. Does P have a Max precipative limit?-I don't know.

There's just too many details about this that I am unaware of.....



> Interestingly, after all my vehement attacking of your theory I changed my autodosing from two bottles (micros and macros) to one bottle (everything except P). LOL!


That's Good! The only problem that I am aware of is with P. Everything else gets along fine--from what I have learned/understand. You may just end up needing to add more Iron to Your daily dosing in order to overcome any P precipitation. If You show up with what appears to be an Iron deficiency--then just add more Iron to Your auto-doser.

From what I've seen: it *Appears* that P has a Max precipitation limit--I don't know this: I'm just putting 2+2 together from what I have seen.... :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: _Edit: This may vary well be incorrect because of the various possible reasons listed below for the reduction in P: See Edit Note._

Edit Note: It was bothering me whether my P was +3 or +0.3, so I looked at the test scale and it was definitely +3. While I had it out I glanced at the instructions and remembered that P is a quick simple test--so I went ahead and did it. The results are: 0.1-0.15. The reduction in P is no doubt from the water change and a reduction in feeding--both quantity and frequency. But the question to me remains: Does P precipitating Fe cause any reduction in P? I guess I can kind of check that out over time by doing back to back tests--before and after adding iron.

I guess the reduction in P could also be caused by the Increase in everything else as I am dosing more.....Plants using more P.

Edit Note 2: The 1:10 ratio of P/Fe above is incorrect. The ratio of P/Fe is actually about 30:1. The ratio between My setup and Wasserpest's is 1:10. I have left it the way it is simply because it reads well for getting the point across....

HTH


----------



## hamstermann (May 10, 2007)

Was it ever decided what causes the smell and the growth in the ferts solutions?


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

In my dosing setups, removing the P (KH2PO4) from the mixture seemed to resolve the smell issue. Nowadays I mix N (KNO3) and K (K2SO4) and perhaps a little bit of Mg (MgSO4) and after four weeks, the solutions have a slight odor, but not the wetsocksngarlic gag smell.

I dose P via test tube.

I dose micros in concentrated form via peristaltic pumps. In dilution, those tended to grow some stuff (fungus? bacteria?) which can probably be suppressed with HCl. But I found peristaltic pumps work well to dose Flourish and such liquid trace mixes, so I stopped experimenting.


----------



## allknighter (Feb 26, 2010)

We'll I'm knocked over. I've just spent the last hour going over Wasserpests DIY dosers and I'm amazed at all the activity on this project.

I've been working on a control box for my 12 Mr. Aqua. Since it's my only aquarium, I'm going all out; DIY LED, built a stand for it, and now I'm working on an autodosing syringe pump (The idea is to automate the whole thing with an arduino brain). I'm running a $7 DC toy motor from my Makerbot to a bevel gear transmission I printed on said Makerbot to push a piston to drive my syringe. The good thing about this idea is that you don't have the problems of the 24 hour syringe pump (back flow, check valves not functioning). The bad part is the footprint of the transmission (bevel gears take a LOT of space) and the time futzing around on my makerbot (time well spent  ).

Needless to say I'm a bit humbled by the inventiveness here. I'll pursue my own route and post the results in the DIY forum - with a lot of inspiration from what I'm seeing!


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Hehe, thanks for resurrecting this. :smile:

The syringe dosing didn't work out for me because the cheap oral syringes would lose their softness over time (perhaps due to the chemicals in the solution, or because they are meant to be short-lived anyway?). So after a few months they would be so difficult to actuate that they broke whatever mechanism was driving them, or their plunger, whichever was weaker.

If you'd find higher quality syringes, perhaps some made from glass with better plunger gaskets, this should work well.

After all these years, I am still using the method described in the first post. The waterpump dosing is 100% reliable. Very recommended for automating your macros.


----------

