# Keeping discus in plant tank



## dkreef (Jan 9, 2005)

Well now that my 265gal plant tank is stabilizing and while the tank cycles im starting to study keeping discus.

Is there anything i should be aware of in keeping discus in heavily planted tank with high tech system such as bright t5 ho lights and co2? 
What about ferts such as nitrate?

I have a 120gal sump system where first 1/4 section is poret filters then mid 1/2 is 50gal space of bioballs and last section is seachem biomatrix media(enough for 400gal) and sponge and 18w uv sterilizer, then finally return pump. Also co2 reactor with ph controller at end section. 

I was watching this video where this guy uses refugium ecosystem mud to filter 120gal lowtech discus tank where there is 15 adult discus in it and hundred tetras. He has only done 10 water changes in 6 years!
His fish look amazing and he never even scrapes the side or back wall of the tank for algae cleaning.

Check it out and lmk what u guys think:





http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/products/freshwater/miracle-mud/miracle-mud-freshwater/

Now i kept refugium for saltwater reef tank before and it did wonders. I hardly did water change and corals thrived.

So what im thinking is to replace the huge bioballs i have with this miracle mud. 

Discuspaul where r u? Now im gonna need your help.


----------



## dkreef (Jan 9, 2005)

Well this guy is a discus breeder himself and if we never tried this route and keep saying it can never be done then that wont be smart.
I wanna keep healthy fish but why do more work when u dont have to?
Just wanted to see if ppl have any knowledge about this aspect of discus keeping. 
Cuz everyone including myself knows daily water change is good for discus.


----------



## Indychus (Feb 21, 2013)

dkreef said:


> Well this guy is a discus breeder himself and if we never tried this route and keep saying it can never be done then that wont be smart.
> I wanna keep healthy fish but why do more work when u dont have to?
> Just wanted to see if ppl have any knowledge about this aspect of discus keeping.
> Cuz everyone including myself knows daily water change is good for discus.


I agree completely. I removed my previous post because it may be misconstrued as offensive to some and I don't want to step on any toes. If you decide to try something similar to the setup in the video please post up a thread on it, I am extremely interested in the possibility of a low maintenance discus tank.


----------



## dkreef (Jan 9, 2005)

Well i dont wanna be the first guy to try this method just believing this video cuz looks like the guy is a promoter of ecosystem miracle mud...

Im hoping to find some other discus keepers who went this route and their experience. 

My another problem i see is if this mud is so efficient at removing nitrates then how would that affect heavy high tech plant tanks for nutrients?


----------



## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

dkreef said:


> Well i dont wanna be the first guy to try this method just believing this video cuz looks like the guy is a promoter of ecosystem miracle mud...


BINGO!!!

at 4:40.. he talks about the importance of water changes.. if you want great growth, color and size.. 

and 20:25 he talks about what size of fish he brings in to sell.. 
so he is not breeding them, he imports them from asia

i am not sure why people get get stuck on a statement about that display tank only have 10 water changes in 6 years.. YET.. disregard how he states several times over 32 minutes, the importance of water changes for growth and health.. and 25th min he states the best type of tank, is a Bare bottom.
those fish in the Display tank have not been raised from juvies to adult in there.. so beware to trying to do the same

to answer you question, of all the discus people i know from around the county.. they do not have a planted tank to house their discus with refug... 

ps.. IF one must feel the need to have planted discus tank.. you should get a MINIMUM Of 5" fish, young adult


----------



## dkreef (Jan 9, 2005)

i was thinking of getting 4" does that make a difference?
mine is heavy hightech plant tank.


----------



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Warlock said:


> BINGO!!!
> 
> at 4:40.. he talks about the importance of water changes.. if you want great growth, color and size..
> 
> ...


 
Very appropriate commentary, Skip. 
I agree with what Warlock has to say here.

Not saying this can't be done by anyone, but keep in mind that the host of this video is quite obviously pretty much a discus 'expert', has a lot of know-how regarding methods, maintenance & timing of dealing with the various aspects of the refugium, and has learned the best approaches to keeping nitrates quite low, negating the need for regular wcs.

And as Skip says, he didn't grow those discus in that tank - he populated it with 5"-6" adults from the get-go.
And if I got it all correctly, he is not using CO2 in that refugium, so he's minimizing the chances or risks of possible pH swings, or other things that can go awry.

You could give it a go, dkreef, but I would suggest tending to understock the tank, being careful with keeping a regular eye on things, testing, starting with healthy adult fish, doing minimum monthly wcs, at least to start with until you've got a good feel for how things are working out, and be very careful with going the high-tech pressurized CO2 route with this kind of set-up.

Not sure I could or would succeed with doing this myself, so not sure I would try it, and I have a lot of discus-keeping time under my belt.
That's my take.


----------



## dkreef (Jan 9, 2005)

when u mean be careful of co2 hightech, u mean co2 overdose and PH swings?

cuz i have a ph controller and it keeps PH day and night at 6.8-6.9 all the time.

anything else i need to be careful of in hightech plant tank with discus?

what about dosing fertilizers NPK, micro?

are 4" size considered adult enough?


----------



## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

dkreef said:


> are 4" size considered adult enough?


no.. but i am assuming you would buy from a reputable breeder/seller.. NOT LFS>. some LFS have 4" fish are over year old.. and stunted at 4".. 

pm me.. and i can hook u up with names..


----------



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

dkreef said:


> when u mean be careful of co2 hightech, u mean co2 overdose and PH swings?
> 
> cuz i have a ph controller and it keeps PH day and night at 6.8-6.9 all the time.
> 
> ...


Yes, that's basically what I mean. And it's good that you have a controller for maintenance of pH stability. 
BTW, you don't run your CO2 at night do you (24/7) ?

If you're well experienced with running a high tech pressurized CO2 system, then there's nothing specific I can think of that should/could present any serious problems for the discus, including dosing NPK and trace elements.

4" discus are near adults, but will not likely have as well developed immune systems as 6" adults, the latter which also need lesser feedings than 4" fish - hence easier to maintain good tank cleanliness.

In this type of environment, further growth of 4" fish may tend to be very limited (i.e. some stunting risk), but if that doean't bother you, then go ahead with the smaller fish.

If it were me, I would still hesitate to take on this kind of challenge with discus, as I would not wish to be faced with the potential hassle of having to correct/change/alter/backtrack/watch & maintain all systems properly.
I feel it would take more time monitoring this type of set-up than the time it takes to do more regular wcs, and maintain a low-tech enviro.

And regardless of the video host's experience & results with this kind of set-up ( he's able to monitor it well daily in his shop), I nonetheless can't felp feeling the discus may not remain as healthy & disease-resistant over the long term, as those receiving regular large doses of fresh, clean water. 
But hey, that's just me - to each his own.


----------



## dkreef (Jan 9, 2005)

i know an importer that brings in tropical fish from thailand and singapore including discus. 
i can order couple and see how they are. biggest they have is 4" they have classified some as hormoned and nonhormoned. im of course gonna buy nonhormone ones.
cost is great so im considering it but also wanna check out local breeders around here.


----------



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

dkreef said:


> i know an importer that brings in tropical fish from thailand and singapore including discus.
> i can order couple and see how they are. biggest they have is 4" they have classified some as hormoned and nonhormoned. im of course gonna buy nonhormone ones.
> cost is great so im considering it but also wanna check out local breeders around here.


Over the past few years I've read & heard several times that Thailand's discus-breeders, generally-speaking, do not have an unblemished reputation for supplying good quality, healthy discus, and that many breeders there have a rep for exporting/supplying (undisclosed) hormoned fish - a no-no in the reliable/responsible end of the discus-producing industry.

In Malaysia for example, it seems you will rarely, if ever, come across a discus breeder who hormones discus, whereas in Thailand, it may be the other way around.
To me, it doesn't speak well for the importer you mention, if he is bringing in & selling hormoned discus.

How far are you from SF ? I would suggest considering getting your discus from Kenny's Discus in Daly City, Ca. He imports quality Forrest discus from Malaysia, which is what I buy from an excellent supplier here in Vancouver.


----------



## dkreef (Jan 9, 2005)

discuspaul said:


> Over the past few years I've read & heard several times that Thailand's discus-breeders, generally-speaking, do not have an unblemished reputation for supplying good quality, healthy discus, and that many breeders there have a rep for exporting/supplying (undisclosed) hormoned fish - a no-no in the reliable/responsible end of the discus-producing industry.
> 
> In Malaysia for example, it seems you will rarely, if ever, come across a discus breeder who hormones discus, whereas in Thailand, it may be the other way around.
> To me, it doesn't speak well for the importer you mention, if he is bringing in & selling hormoned discus.
> ...


good info. im gona check out inland empire discus as i work in same city.
thanks


----------



## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

dkreef said:


> good info. im gona check out inland empire discus as i work in same city.
> thanks


roud:roud:roud:roud:roud:roud:


----------



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Bill of Inland Empire Discus has a very good reputation and is a long-time sponsor on simplydiscus forum.
Can't go wrong buying from him.


----------



## dkreef (Jan 9, 2005)

i called Bill and he doesnt have much tank bred 4"+ ones. he needs to custom order from malaysia but he guarantees good ones.

ive been reading about difficulty in hightech plant tanks and discus from here:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?93624-My-Planted-Tank-Experience

i do plan to get 4-5"+ discus only but again. is it that hard to keep plants and discus both happy?

im not stupid to say well i can do better where almost everyone failed. 

all other ones in my stock list plans are small fish like tetras, corys, rams. 
i need a big show fish. and i hate angels...


----------



## dasob85 (Feb 4, 2012)

When I kept discus, I started with 5" adults in a barebottom tank with some potted plants. Ofc, I had no idea about plants back then so probably the heat kept killing them, or lack of ferts, or lack of lights who knows, but at that size the discus felt like regular fish to me. I think you will be fine if you start out with good stock and do the water changes and pick high temp plants!

and I agree with you on angels.


----------



## fplata (May 20, 2012)

There are a bunch of plants that will do well above 82 degrees, if you have the right plants you will be ok. Another great breather is Jack Wattley check him out


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dinnese (Feb 4, 2013)

Just thought that I would give you a little inspiration. You can have a planted tank and keep Discus too. This is a picture of my 90 gallon tank. I run pressurized C02 and UV sterilization. I have 4 Royal Purple Tiger's, 3 Siam Yellow Master's and 4 Red Melon Yellow Faced Discus. All of which have been doing great over the past several months.


----------



## dkreef (Jan 9, 2005)

Ammania Gracilis
Bacopa caroliniana
cryptocoryne Balanesae
cryptocoryne Lucens
cryptocoryne wendtii Brown
cryptocoryne wendtii Green
Echinodorus Parviflorus
Hydrocotyle leucocephala
hygrophillia difformis
Limnophillia Aquatica
Limnophillia Aromatica
Ludwigia Natans
HC
Java fern
Narrow leaf Java fern
Rotala Indica
Sagittaria subulata
Vallisneria Spiralis

this is what i have. any plants that cant handle 80 degrees?


----------



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

dinnese said:


> Just thought that I would give you a little inspiration. You can have a planted tank and keep Discus too.


Your discus tank looks great, dinnese - I agree with you.
Here's a couple of sets of pics of mine - forgive me if you've seen them before:

http://s1105.photobucket.com/albums/h357/discuspaul/3RedSnakeSkins
http://s1105.photobucket.com/albums/h357/discuspaul/Sept2011


And please allow me to add another small (but worthy) thought for you folks wanting to get started with discus:

Besides making sure you get reasonably good-sized, more mature stock to begin with, from a known experienced supplier of quality, healthy discus, another of my other prime 'rules' for being successful at keeping discus, is to keep things as simple as you can.

Because once you start to elaborate, move into high-tech, make maintenance & control of water params more difficult, take on those extra challenges, etc., rather than just focusing on the discus, then you increase the 'opportunities' for messing up, and things often begin to go sideways. 
Follow the KISS concept when keeping discus, and you'll succeed !


----------



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

dkreef said:


> Ammania Gracilis
> Bacopa caroliniana
> cryptocoryne Balanesae
> cryptocoryne Lucens
> ...


----------



## dkreef (Jan 9, 2005)

So which ones are questionable from my list?


----------



## dkreef (Jan 9, 2005)

I dont plan to go higher than 82. More like 80 is where i wanna be.


----------



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Well, 80 is a little low for discus - I wouldn't go lower than 82-83. Remember, focus on the discus, not the plants.
As for the plants, as I said, most should do well, except for the HC (ok with CO2, but make sure you want to go that route - if you really want to suceed with discus, you might want to avoid it, at least at first until you become familiar with discus traits & behaviors - their likes & dislikes).
I don't have any experience with Gracilus and Hydrocotyle, so don't know how they would do.
Make it easier on yourself - stay away from unknowns, and stick to the tried & true methods with discus, especially in a planted environment, and in such a large tank as you're planning. As I said before - keep things simple - but in line with proven successful methods & approaches.
I honestly don't know what else to tell you, without sounding like a broken record.


----------



## fplata (May 20, 2012)

Paul is correct. Talk to your breather about the temperature for your discuss. For the most part, specially in tank bred discus you will slow down their metabolism too much if you drop the temperature under 82 degrees, I have seen some experts keep wild discus at 80 degrees, but I certainly do not recommend going that route with out fully knowing the why. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

Glad ur looking to adult fish... the young ones require lots of feeds
. And thus producenlots of waste.. once I went barebottom I could not believe how much waste there was in jus 30min.. could not imagine how was actually jus laying in the gravel. . Ugh!

Discus can live in a planted tank.. but can they thrive.. not really. . Hence need to buy adults. They wont stunt.. if u get juvies.. chances are they will stunt, ie. Really big eyes compared to entire body 

Gl 

Bill is a great source


----------



## dkreef (Jan 9, 2005)

warlock, have yu heard of Frank from Discus King here in chino hills, CA?
friend of mine bought few from him. 

i was reading kenny's discus forum on april shipment and was blown away at his selection.
not sure if Bill can get that kind of selection and pricing. i hope he can...


----------



## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

dkreef said:


> warlock, have yu heard of Frank from Discus King here in chino hills, CA?
> friend of mine bought few from him.
> 
> i was reading kenny's discus forum on april shipment and was blown away at his selection.
> not sure if Bill can get that kind of selection and pricing. i hope he can...


nope.. never heard of.. nor can i find anything of a Discus king in CA.. 

kenny gets those shippments EVERY MONTH! Don't think bill really imports.. mostly just breeds his own... kenny imports.. his "breeder" is Forrest from Malaysia..


----------



## dkreef (Jan 9, 2005)

got it. make sense then. bill says his bred ones are sold before they reach 3" so he would have to import the adult sizes also.
ill find out. thanks


----------



## reefboy1 (Sep 11, 2009)

I have a 75gal heavy planted discus tank. Both plants/discus seem to be thriving. LED Lights and pressurized CO2.










Art


----------



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Nice tank.
Nothing wrong with keeping discus in a heavily planted tank using pressurized CO2, if you're familiar both with keeping discus healthy, and using CO2 properly.
Many people do it well, and successfully.
If you're new to either one or the other, particularly discus-keeping, that can be, and often is, a recipe for problems.


----------



## dkreef (Jan 9, 2005)

http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/for/3748500897.html

what do u guys think of these discus?


----------



## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

Great teaching moment.. 

Look at the pics.. and look at the size of eyes and size of body..

Also look to see which fish have round body and which are football shaped


----------



## dkreef (Jan 9, 2005)

well teach me...it doesnt look great to me. color and shape wise.


----------



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

I wouldn't recommend that anyone buy any of those fish, even someone I didn't like - lol

I'd be willing to bet that many of those fish are stunted - judging by eye to body ratio & shape. Many don't look very healthy, and peppering turns me off, since stress due to less than ideal conditions can occasion it, just as much as genetics & tank coloration do.


----------



## dkreef (Jan 9, 2005)

even breeders allow stunted discus? this is not LFS, its a breeder.


----------



## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

dkreef said:


> even breeders allow stunted discus? this is not LFS, its a breeder.


Growing out discus large or medium scale is not an easy or cheap proposition.


----------



## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

Well he said he guaranted 100% body shape and health. .

Newbie look at discus and see a fish they don't see often.. 

But have never seen a quality healthy one.. 

More ur see more u know


----------



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

dkreef said:


> even breeders allow stunted discus? this is not LFS, its a breeder.


Some, if not many, breeders want to sell all their discus - no matter if they've not grown them out very well, and have produced some stunted fish.


----------



## fplata (May 20, 2012)

Here are some beautiful discus, he is also one if the best breeders 

http://m.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=150097418366245&__user=1606549426


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Green_Flash (Apr 15, 2012)

I don't see this mentioned often, so I would like to hear some thoughts on Discus in a nature aquarium style setup with Aquasoil. The plants cover the substrate or most of it and the substrate system consists of Aquasoil + Powersand + 5 elements (bacteria etc) and it (substrate) is never siphoned/vacuumed like PFS tanks. 
A few examples: 


















So water changes are still performed, just no vacuuming. I am thinking of doing something similar to the first in a modified nature aquarium style, no CO2, low light, full substrate system and lean dosing or none at all stocked with easy plants.

What amazes me is the sweet moss growth in the first tank, most moss like cool water. I did read however recently willow moss is more heat resistant of the mosses.


----------



## James M (Jun 21, 2012)

Very nice


----------



## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

fplata said:


> Here are some beautiful discus, he is also one if the beast breeders


i disagree.. Jack Wattely the man, was god father of discus in USA.. but he has long since retired.. Gabe mostly imports his fish


----------



## fplata (May 20, 2012)

Warlock said:


> i disagree.. Jack Wattely the man, was god father of discus in USA.. but he has long since retired.. Gabe mostly imports his fish


When was the last time you went to his shop? I was there 2 weeks ago and did see about 40+ breeding pairs. Yes he brings some fish, but not mostly


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

fplata said:


> When was the last time you went to his shop? I was there 2 weeks ago and did see about 40+ breeding pairs. Yes he brings some fish, but not mostly


LOL>> ok.. your wrong about best breeder.. but i look the fish from SHOW Quality, not Pet Quality 
i don't want to spam the OP's thread here.. so we can both just drop it from here.. 
:hihi:


----------



## fplata (May 20, 2012)

Warlock said:


> LOL>> ok.. your wrong about best breeder.. but i look the fish from SHOW Quality, not Pet Quality
> i don't want to spam the OP's thread here.. so we can both just drop it from here..
> :hihi:


Lol the all mighty expert has spoken, yes we can both drop it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dkreef (Jan 9, 2005)

Looking at those discus in plant pics, having the same discus looks quite nice. 
I was thinking 4-6 different kinds but just the blues look very nice.
More decisions!


----------



## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

Blue diamond. Cobalt. Blue scorpion. Flachen. Flachen snake skin. Blue snake skin. Blue turq.

All blue fish.. diff shades.. solid to patterned


----------



## reefboy1 (Sep 11, 2009)

Here's where I ordered my Discus. Just ordered 2 Red Covers today to add to my 4 Red Diamond Spotted Discus:

http://sunrisetropicals.com/

Very happy with them.
Art


----------



## dkreef (Jan 9, 2005)

Guys. Have a question. When adding fish. Which order would u do so? Discus very first or others first? Or it doesnt really matter anyway?


----------



## fplata (May 20, 2012)

dkreef said:


> Guys. Have a question. When adding fish. Which order would u do so? Discus very first or others first? Or it doesnt really matter anyway?


Great question, add the smaller fish first. Specially if you are using fish like cardinals and small fish that size, one of the reasons is that you do not want your discus to think the small fish are being fed to them


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tomfromstlouis (Apr 2, 2012)

dkreef said:


> Looking at those discus in plant pics, having the same discus looks quite nice.
> I was thinking 4-6 different kinds but just the blues look very nice.
> More decisions!


May I suggest that you look at pictures of discus tanks to help you decide this? The vivid colors available in discus make a tank of 4-6 different kinds a completely different visual than all of one kind. I will not even bias you with my personal opinion, but the look of identical tanks with one kind versus 5 kinds is completely different. Try google images of "planted discus tanks"

ps - I noted your angelfish comment above and restrained myself mightily. But now that I am here, what is so objectionable about angels? If it has anything to do with behavior, remember that angels and discus are both larger cichlids and share behavioral characteristics.


----------



## dkreef (Jan 9, 2005)

i did look at the one type vs multiple kinds.
and i decided that i wont go with rainbow colors of discus all over the place but focus on two colors...blue and red. so i picked 4 blues and 4 reds with different patterns.(some solid, some turqs, snakeskins, leopard etc...)

haha tom i didnt want to offend u with my angel remarks. 
just that right now in this stage in my hobby, i reallly dont wanna try angels. its more about how im attracted to discus appearance and color than angels. your altums look great and i never knew altums cost the same as discus almost. 
i was thinking $10 angels at store. whats the reason for such high price?


----------



## dkreef (Jan 9, 2005)

reefboy1 said:


> I have a 75gal heavy planted discus tank. Both plants/discus seem to be thriving. LED Lights and pressurized CO2.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


how often do u do water change? how many feedings/day?


----------



## tomfromstlouis (Apr 2, 2012)

dkreef said:


> ... i never knew altums cost the same as discus almost.
> i was thinking $10 angels at store. whats the reason for such high price?


Rarity I suspect. Altums very rarely have bred in captivity so all are imported from remote locations only a few months per year. They are closer to wild caught discus in this respect. Historically import mortality has been very high too; we are just learning how to care for these majestic animals. At least, I am.

I am looking ofrward to seeing your tank full. It will be awesome.


----------



## reefboy1 (Sep 11, 2009)

dkreef said:


> how often do u do water change? how many feedings/day?


Hi DKreef,

I did water changes weekly for the first month, but now that it seems to be stablized I'll do them as needed - maybe once a month.

I feed frozen blood worms and flakes daily - but I'm thinking I may increase to twice a day and maybe increase water change frequency to offset. 

Art


----------

