# Toxic for rotala rotundifolia



## Docock (Aug 5, 2015)

So long story short, I think the trace element part of me EI dosing is poisoning my rotala rotundifolia.

I have these liquid ferts Seachem Flourish Potassium, Iron, and the Comprehensive trace one (however I have not refrigerated it for the year I have had it.)

The EI instructions are (20-40 gal):
Every other day
1/4 KNO3 tsp
1/16 KH2PO4
1/16 K2SO4
Every other day
1/16 PlantEX 


So with light dosing, I only need to dose K2SO4 and Flourish Iron and Flourish Potassium about a little less then 1/4 tsp daily? It would be so helpful if someone could just recommend how much and what to use.

It is a 48 gallon aquarium, pressurized CO2, and medium light. No other stems plants, but a lot of anubias, buce, ferns, bolbitis, and moss.

Thanks!


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## spore (May 7, 2016)

What exactly makes you think that the trace elements are poisoning your rotundifolia?


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## Docock (Aug 5, 2015)

If you look closely all of the leaves have black on them.

Bump: I planted these all from trimmings about a week ago.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Are you having issues with green spot algae? 

The reason I ask is because in order to see the spots you were talking about, I had to open your images in Photoshop then really zoom in. I didn't see any black spots, but I did see some dark green spots that look like green spot algae. 

Everything else looks okay, so IMO, I don't think you've got a toxicity issue.


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## spore (May 7, 2016)

I thing it's probably unwise to assume it's toxicity. I would assume deficiency (or algae as suggested above) before tox. 
I have personally observed rotalas do weird things like develop hyper-pigmented spots when dosing massive amounts of iron - but I and many others have done just fine with the standard EI Trace(CSM+B) dose. In fact, if you go back about 10 years ago, you never saw a post about trace toxicity.. but everyone was still dosing the same amount and variety of trace elements. Suddenly the issue appears everywhere when one person makes a loose and unsubstantiated claim of trace toxicity.
Until someone positively IDs the specific element that _might_ cause toxicity in rotalas at EI levels, it's all a bunch of hokum.

Are you making sure to do your 50% water changes every week? 


Just to add some validity to this(and let you know that I am not just talking out of my ascot), this rotundifolia was grown entirely on a normal EI dose:


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## Docock (Aug 5, 2015)

No green spot algae that I have seen, but I will look into it. Thank you for taking such a close look! 

Okay, I think I am going to continue with EI. However right now I am actually doing 50% water changes a day, so they might be getting some trace elements from that. My plan is to slowly back off this into a weekly 50% water change. They might also be getting trace elements from aquasoil, so that is why I ask if a bi-daily dose of trace is overkill. 

That rotundifolia is beautiful.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Just so you know what I looked at and what I found, here is a zoomed in screenshot from your first picture. The areas circled in yellow are from the left side of the picture.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Why are you changing 50% daily. How old is the setup?


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## spore (May 7, 2016)

Another question - what is the white particulate all over your substrate?


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

It could be low CO2.


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## Docock (Aug 5, 2015)

Those were the spots I thought developed due to toxicity. However it would be a lot more simple if it was algae. 

Changing 50% a day because it is a new aquarium. My mentor has been a top ranked aqusaper in ADA contests and everything, so he is helping me with my regiments. 

I have no idea what the white particulate is, this is used aquasoil that I am using.

I could try increasing CO2, my indicator says it is a normal level. No live stock yet, so I can really play around until I find the perfect environment.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Docock said:


> ..My mentor has been a top ranked aqusaper in ADA contests and everything, so he is helping me with my regiments.


What does your mentor think it is?


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## Docock (Aug 5, 2015)

He suggested toxicity, and that is why I am asking the questions that I am asking. I was hoping a few knowledgable people could give me some advice.

Bump: In particular he suggested lean dosing, and I was wondering if anyone has experience with it.

¼ tsp K2SO4
1 ml of Seachem Comprehensive
1 ml of Seachem Iron

Every other Day (3xweek) (optional):

½ tsp KN03
1/16 tsp KH2PO4


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Perhaps it's just me, but it seems odd that a person with that much experience would suggest that toxicity is the issue but not offer any advice on how to fix it? It is his dosing regime you are following, right?

I'm not well-versed with plants that have toxicity issues, but it makes sense in my brain that if that were a problem, it would be all over the plant and it show other symptoms beyond a few green spots scattered about. Melting, stunted growth, deformed leaves, ect... When I hear a plant is in a toxic state, I think the problem is systemic, but I could be talking out of my butt.


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## spore (May 7, 2016)

Docock said:


> Bump: In particular he suggested lean dosing, and I was wondering if anyone has experience with it.
> 
> ¼ tsp K2SO4
> 1 ml of Seachem Comprehensive
> ...



Let's assume that you do have a toxicity problem for a moment - we would first want to clear the issue up. You've been doing 50% daily water changes, and if you've been doing them for even a week and not dosing trace, then you could definitely assume that you are no longer at risk. What I would do at this point would be to continue normally with macros, but dose 1/2 normal traces with a 50% weekly and see if it clears. Stick to whatever traces you were using before, because if you switch to something else, you are adding in unknown variables. If you still see the issue after several weeks of doing this, do several 50% water changes, and then cut back to 1/4 dose of trace. Do this for two to three more weeks. If the issue persists or gets worse, then you definitely do not have a trace toxicity problem.. you have a deficiency. 

As far as lean dosing, I've attempted a lot of different adjustments with my rotalas to try and get them to color up. The only thing I've found is that keeping NO3 a tad lower than normal - say around 1/2 EI dose, and adding in a smidgen more PO4 (slightly rounded spoonful instead of a level one) seems to get them to be a little more intensely colored. This is entirely subjective though, and may be isolated to my specific setup.
Extra iron dosing on top of normal EI trace seemed to actually have a detrimental effect on color whether I was lean or rich, or normal EI. None of this addresses your issue, which is probably some type of algae. 

Could you get an up close shot of the spots - perhaps even pull one of the bad stems out and photograph the leaves for us? It'd realllly help us diagnose the issue.

Also when you say medium light - what type of fixture(wattage, bulb type), distance from substrate?

Sorry for all the questions, but there are a lot of variables in play.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Pick off the leaf with the hole in it and take a picture of it. It looks like necrosis in older leaves which suggests low Nitrogen or CO2.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

What is the reason for dosing the tank if you're just turning around the following day and removing it all? As others have stated I don't understand the daily 50% wc's, unless this is a dirtied tank or aqua soil. Why not stop dosing until the tank is done cycling?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Nlewis said:


> What is the reason for dosing the tank if you're just turning around the following day and removing it all? As others have stated I don't understand the daily 50% wc's, unless this is a dirtied tank or aqua soil. Why not stop dosing until the tank is done cycling?


In addition to removing SOME of the ferts to bring it back to a working ranges the water changes are vital to reducing the organics in the water column. All the systems whether it be EI, ADA, etc break down without the water changes. Of course there are setups that can get buy without water changes, but they are limited by plant types, light, etc.


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## dukydaf (Dec 27, 2004)

@spore already covered a good experiment to run , I would say make it longer 3wks or more for each treatment as metals can become precipitated, accumulated by plants (luxury uptake) or reused. Thus, it takes longer for plants to run out on them. Change only one thing, your dosing, keep all other things the same. Remove and induce the same symptom several times … now you have some correlation but not causality never mind toxicity.

To continue what @houseofcards is saying
EI is built around a weekly 50% water change. The main use of the water change is to remove organics and allow a cleaning routine for pruning, cleaning substrate etc. The added benefit is that it keeps the theoretical accumulation of (water column) nutrient level to 2x the WEEKLY dose. Say your total NO3 for a week is 20ppm. If the plants consume nothing and nothing is lost, you will have a max of 40ppm with 50% weekly water change (infinite series thing). Do the 50% water changes daily and your water nutrient levels will have a maximum of 2x the DAILY dose, ie 3ppm daily-> 6ppm accumulated. This is assuming no plant uptake or other loss, if the dose is small enough,CO2 and light high enough plants could use most of this and the real-life accumulation would be a little over the daily dose. End result, plants are starving if you do daily 50% wc and dose the same as if you would for weekly wc. To keep EI levels with daily water changes you would have to dose 10-20ppm NO3 DAILY. Just math.

It would help if you could provide any of the answers…. 
When was the tank established ?
When were the plants introduced ? When have they started showing symptoms ?
What time of water do you use for water changes ? Treatment ?
KH, GH, CO2 in ppm (see KH pH CO2 chart) and/or colors of the dropchecker with 4dKH in different places inside the aquarium.
Actual ppm of X added to the aquarium 
Any other root tabs, osmocote …
Pumps, filters , light


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## dukydaf (Dec 27, 2004)

On the topic of trace toxicity, I also feel somebody (SL) sought something to blame for the problems he was having. He provided some arguments to support this imagined interaction but with no concrete proof that it is so in reality. Others jumped on this hypothesis, because it is easier to blame something unknown. On the other hand, there are many aquariums dosing high traces with no problems. The outcomes of imagined toxicity were always what suited the agenda and always changing. I remain unconvinced as I have seen no controlled experiment or even strong correlation between full CSM+B and [outcome of toxicity]. That being said, I am playing with micro levels myself, am eager to see several well documented and planned experiments on the topic and understand that any element is toxic if in high enough concentration. 

If you have high enough CO2 to start with, you could move a single plant in an uncrowded space, in good water flow and near the CO2 source. Sometimes plants get “fussy” when crowded or are behind other plants. (low flow, low CO2, low nutrients etc). This could act as a reference. If the water is toxic you would expect the effect to be found in all the plants (clones) not just some of the leaves some of the plants. If the plant near the CO2 gets better than CO2/flow was your problem. If the plant is the same as others than we need to look more into it. If the plant gets worse than you likely have a deficiency. 

One other explanation for what people have labeled trace toxicity could be explained by the following: 
1.	The aquarium has just enough X macro to make due, but is limited in one of the traces. Plant grows well but not fast and may have some problems. However nothing major is observed since most plants are able to substitute traces, reuse them a lot and survive on very low amounts. 
2.	More traces are added, while X macro levels stay the same. Trace limitation is thus removed plant will try and grow as much as possible. 
3.	Plant hits the X macro limitation. If the macro is a mobile one, the leafs will become yellow, develop holes, melt. The stem will decompose. For immobile nutrients the plant will develop smaller leaves, less growth, distorted stem or leafs, BBA makes an appearance on old growth…. Aquarist blames traces, those evil evil things, destroyers of the universe.
4.	Aquarist lowers traces, induces trace limitation, element X starts to accumulate back to tolerable levels, plant gets better. 
Now you tell me, is this a toxicity of the traces ? A limitation of another nutrient ? This is the problem when starting low and adding up. Tom Barr suggest that the users of EI should do the opposite, provide unlimited nutrient levels. If you want to reduce the dosage now you have a reference point of what good strong growth looks like. If plants do not look so nice your reduced too much. 

Look at the tanks on tropica’s website. They have the dosing provided, of course in ml of Tropica Plant Fertilizer. Some aquariums there use 10mL/L weekly. The solution is quite diluted but this still adds up to 0,39ppm Mn, 0,04 B, 0,69 Fe etc.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Toxicity: your fish would show adverse effects long before the plants.

I sse exactly the same dark spots on my rotalas (and dwarf sagitaria, and pygmy chain swords, etc) under 2 very different situation:

1. Planting cuttings from an established tank into a new tank. If you rub a leaf between your fingertips the stuff comes off somewhat - diatoms / slime. Dark spots on older leaves, the new growth is clean. As you re-plant the new growth and the tank settles in, the spots disappear.

2. Mostly on higher leaves closer to the light in an established tank - GDA. You now have more "mass" of rotalas that consume more nutrients but you have not adjusted your dosing. Bumping P a bit clears up the spots. More common with "lean" dosing when your nutrients are at "just enough" levels and with more frequent water changes.

One point to review: all dosing advise goes like '5 ml of this per 50 gl of water'. We are not dosing water, we are feeding plants. As your plants grow in they need more food. Adjust your dosing slightly up or down on the same tank when you change the plant mass.


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## Fissure (Jun 29, 2014)

First of all you are dosing macros according to the regular EI scheme but dosing micros according to EI light, why?
With that dose there is no way in hell you would have any kind of "toxicity".
There should be no real reason to dose EI light on a tank with pres.CO2 and medium light. Follow regular EI if you want to use EI and dial the traces back until you reach the desired PPM before you do your weekly WC if you are worried about toxicity issues (one should probably do this anyways).

With your daily WC changes you would most likely have deficiencies of everything. Your tank is pretty much void of nutrients more than what comes from your tap and that is most likely not enough.

What is your "ADA gurus" reason for suspecting toxicity? Since you are cutting everything you dose by half every day I can't imagine a good reason for that?

Do a test for FE (drop test) and post your PPM here.


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