# 130 gal Ultra High Tech Custom Built Discus Tank



## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

I started off in the aquarium hobby about 4 years ago now with a betta fish in a vase. After about 6 months he wasn't doing well so I started researching how to better take care of him. Much to my wife's dismay this quickly sent me down a rabbit hole of fish keeping. After upgrading my Betta to a 5 gallon tank, I stumbled upon this site and decided I wanted to try a planted tank. I bought a 36g on craigslist and entered my foray into planted tanks. About 2 years ago my wife heard from a friend from work that one of his friends had a friend that was looking to get rid of his old tank, which leads us where I am today.

*Before going into all the details, a brief summary of what I am trying to accomplish. My goal is to build a fully automated high tech discus tank. Dosing, lights, CO2, feeding, temperature and water changes will be fully automated. The only thing I will need to do to maintain this tank is trim the plants, and rinse the filter pads once a month. Everything else will be entirely controlled through my Apex controller. *

This tank was a 130g custom built tank that was built in Texas and shipping to the guy here in Pittsburgh. It is a hex shape tank with an overflow on one side. He was upgrading from this $3000 tank to a 220 gallon and didn't have space for this one anymore. He said as long as I was going to use it and could get people to move it that I could have it for Free!!! Here is me with the tank 2 years ago after I first got it. Terribly awkward picture but I can't find any of the pictures I took when I first got it.

Aquarium Dirty 

It was a saltwater tank and it was not in great condition when I first got it. It had a good 1/4" of salt buildup over the whole tank, and the polyurethane and stain was peeling off the wood over 90% of the tank and stand. I was living on the 18th floor of an apartment building at the time, so filling it was out of the question. I spent the next year striping it, sanding it, cleaning it and re-staining it from top to bottom. The end result was a vastly improved tank and stand.

IMG_0277 

My next project was the sump. It had a sump, but it was pretty much unusable for a FW tank, and honestly it was a pretty big waste of space. 

DPP_0004

I ended up removing the "baffles" from that one, getting rid of the wet/dry bucket and redoing the sump completely. After a lot of help from people here I settled on a new design and got some glass cut and built a much more functional sump. If you are interested in reading about the sump design more you can find that thread here:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/848482-sump-design-advice.html

For the overflow I am using a modified Durso Standpipe that feeds down into a reverse Durso in the sump. It's not as silent as a bean animal style, but it is all I could fit without redrilling the tank which I did not want to do. The overflow pours up onto the progressively finer filters, then into a biomedia (seachem matrix) chamber, with some purigen and then into the equipment section before finally entering the pump return section. I am using a Reefoctopus VarioS-6 controllable DC return pump, which offers amazing flow and is dead quiet. I have 2 250 W Aqueon Pro heaters which will keep the aquarium at a comfortable 82 degrees F for the discus. 

Moving on, the light I chose to use is a Reefbreeder Photon-48 with a customized spectrum. This light will probably never go above 50%, but it offers incredible power, a great spectrum and is fully controllable. I dive into pretty great detail on the light in this thread if you are interested in learning more:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/985442-led-options-48x23x23-tank.html

Special thanks @jeffkrol for his help with the lighting.

Well that's all I've got time for right now. I will update this soon with some of the set-up and automation details as well as plants and fish when I get there! Hope you enjoy the journey!


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## flukekiller (Jun 4, 2013)

sounds like a fun and interesting project... are you going to go with adult discus from the start or going with juvies?
just asking cause it will be much easier if you go with adults if you want to jump right into a planted tank. if you want 
to go with juvies i suggest growing them out first in a bare bottom tank just for ease of maint purposes.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Well that looks like quite an ambitious project you have there. Looking forward to seeing how this develops.

And nice work on rejuvenating the stand. Looks like it came out really nice.

Keep the updates coming.


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## II Knucklez II (Oct 31, 2011)

Who that's awesome, I originally wanted to do a high tech planted discus tank in my 180g but after seeing how much work it would be by trying it out in a smaller tank I decided to do a low tech natural set up.

But I would have to agree with flukekiller 100% best bet would be adults if your wallet allows it, to add them right away But if u get juveniles then go with a bare bottom tank. 

If you want your discus to grow out to the biggest and healthiest as possible any one that has keep them before will tell you that it's almost a must to grow them out in a bare bottom tank. The reason being they need the cleanest water possible and at least big water changes every other day, since they need to be feed 5 times a day(2 times a day minimum) and create a lot of waste. This way you can clean out the tank very easily. 

Can't wait to see how it comes out!!! Best of luck

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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

I will indeed be going with adult discus, probably 5" or so. My current stocking plan is:

6 Discus
~20 harlequin rasbora
~20 Silver hatchet fish
~12 Zebra Loaches
~20 amano shrimp

Plants will go in first, followed by the shrimp so they can grow out before I get the other fish. Once they are adults they can hold their own pretty well. 

I neglected to put a picture of the sump in last time, so here it is:


IMG_1012 

Water enters from the left, goes through the sump to the return then goes into the UV filter. The UV filter is a Vecton 600 which is a 25W high dwell time UV sterilizer, which will run at nearly class 2 sterilization levels for my tank. It will run for 12 hours a day and the bulb will be replaced yearly. 

From there the water will enter my CO2 reactor, which is a 3"x25" rexx griggs, as seen below:

IMG_1977 

I custom built my own regulator as well. My old lab was replacing their dual-stage regulators so I snagged one that was in good condition. I followed a bunch of the guides on here to get the parts I needed and build it. Haven't had a chance to test it yet, but I have my 20lb CO2 container now so I should be able to get it filled soon.

IMG_1970

I recently moved out of our apartment and bought a house, so i finally can put all the work I've been doing to use and have started actually setting up the tank. It sat in my garage for about a month while we unpacked and renovated the house, but that extra time did give me a chance to leak test it.

Next step was hanging the light... that turned out to be not as simple as I was hoping. Studs are only every 18" which means the light is not quite centered over the tank. In the end that's ok since there will be plenty of light, and its really only off about 2 inches. 

Once the light was in position it was time to get the tank in place. The tank is not light... it probably weighs about 300-400 lbs, but thankfully I had a bunch of friends willing to help me move it.

IMG_1011 

Last thing I needed to do once it was in place was seal the tank. The original tank builder didn't put an inner seal on the aquarium. To keep it looking cleaner he just used high strength silicone between the glass panes. It held water fine like that, and may have been fine for another 10 years, but just to be safe I decided to add the standard inner silicone seal on all the joints. This turned out to be a little trickier then I initially anticipated. The tank was too deep to do it well from a step ladder, so I ended up doing it from inside the tank, which was a little cramped, but I managed to make it work. My wife thought it was hilarious...

IMG_1021

Well that's it for now, hope you're enjoying the journey so far!


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

I'm really looking forward to seeing this progress! This is pretty much my dream project for once I've finished school and settled a bit after starting my career, though the tank I have in mind will be a bit bigger. 

Will you be using RO/DI or treated tap water?

I would test your regulator carefully. Low quality needle valves are prone to 'floating', in which they spontaneously change position, changing your flow rate and potentially gassing your livestock with no warning. Sometimes this occurs over days or weeks.

Why run the UV sterilizer so much?

For the amano shrimp I would suggest starting out with more, potentially up to 100.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Axelrodi202 said:


> I'm really looking forward to seeing this progress! This is pretty much my dream project for once I've finished school and settled a bit after starting my career, though the tank I have in mind will be a bit bigger.
> 
> Will you be using RO/DI or treated tap water?
> 
> ...


I'll be doing a 50/50 mix of RODI and tap. Reason being is that my tap water is like liquid rock... KH 16 and GH 16, with an outgassed pH of 8.3. Hopefully a 50/50 mix will get me to something a little more reasonable!

12 hours is just a starting point, I will hopefully be able to adjust that down depending on what my ORP looks like. It will probably be higher while everyone is settling in then lower it once it is established.

100 amano's sounds awesome. If I can find that many I might just go for it.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

If I were you, I might consider remineralizing straight RO water. In the wild, Discus live in very acidic, very soft, very warm water. You should be attempting to recreate that if possible. On that note, I would also be adding peat to your sump for the ph drop, or using Aquasoil / Aquasolum / Fluval Shrimp Stratum as a substrate. You took care of the heat requirements for the discus, but not the other things.

I'm also thinking about your dosing. Have you researched Nitrate toxicity with Discus? I was always under the impression that they should be kept in water with no more than 5ppm Nitrate, but that is not a good environment for plants. I could be wrong here, just thinking out loud.

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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

aja31 said:


> I'll be doing a 50/50 mix of RODI and tap. Reason being is that my tap water is like liquid rock... KH 16 and GH 16, with an outgassed pH of 8.3. Hopefully a 50/50 mix will get me to something a little more reasonable!
> 
> 12 hours is just a starting point, I will hopefully be able to adjust that down depending on what my ORP looks like. It will probably be higher while everyone is settling in then lower it once it is established.
> 
> 100 amano's sounds awesome. If I can find that many I might just go for it.


I second the suggestion to use pure RO and remineralize. Not necessarily for the hardness level (fish from certain breeders may be able to adapt) but for the level of control. Tap water is too variable; you never know when your water company is going to pump in super high chlorine levels or something else that will cause grief with your fauna or flora. Also I'm slightly selfish in that I use pure RO/DI myself and would like to see how automation of this would be implemented.

My concern with the regular UV sterilizer use is you may also kill off some good microbes and microorganisms. Microbial processes are a highly underrated contributor to planted tank stability.

For livestock I would recommend Rachel O'Leary (msjinkzd.com). Depending on where in PA you are she may be very close to you. Through her I got 100 amano shrimp for my 120 gallon tank. That high number is great for a new tank when things are still perilous with algae risk, though I eventually had to spread some out to other tanks after some plants were getting nibbled on. 
@jellopuddinpop raises an excellent point. I wonder what your experiences with planted tank management so far have been? Popular methods like EI espouse very high CO2 and nutrient levels, not good for livestock in general but especially not for discus. There are other, leaner methods (like those used by ADA) that would probably be better. It is perfectly possible to sustain a tank full of even weedy stem plants with just 5 ppm nitrates measurable in the water column. I believe the general recommendation for discus is below 10 ppm.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

My dosing target is ~7.5 ppm nitrates. I'll be experimenting to get it just right long before I get discus. Water is well water and is very stable, so don't have to worry about the random things water companies are always doing to the water. I'll be aging and testing the water monthly to ensure it is consistent though. water parameters were chosen to get close to the parameters the discus breeders around here use. Discus these days are dozens of generations of raised in tap water, what you don't want to do is constantly fiddle with the chemistry as that is what generally causes problems. My 50/50 mix plus CO2 dosing should get the pH to good levels.

I haven't seen any scientific studies or research that UV causes problems with microorganisms. Reefers use much more intense UV and even ozone generators without issues. Beneficial bacteria is generally not free floating, not sure what potential other microorganisms could be free floating though.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Nitrifying bacteria aren't the only important microbes in a tank. I'm not sure if any important microbes are free-floating, but microorganisms like infusoria, ostracods, and copepods definitely are.

Working with remineralized RO/DI water results in rock-steady parameters if done right. My water's usually within no more than several TDS. Well water is more feasible than standard tap, though even then I've heard horror stories of it suddenly changing. Regular testing will be important if you go that route.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Disaster strikes...

well more stupidity than disaster, but the end result was 30 gallons of water onto my carpet... 

After two days of working on the plumbing and fighting off numerous leaks, I finally had the tank up and running, but I wasn't 100% confident it was still leak free. So I stopped the pump, waited a minute to make sure the return siphon broke correctly and then went to bed. Unfortunately I don't have my CO2 line hooked up yet, so I had thrown the tubing up into the tank since it was streaming water out of the CO2 tube. I forgot that I put it up in the tank and when the pump stopped it formed a back siphon into the sump. This caused the sump to overflow and deposit 30 gallons of water onto the floor.

The only saving grace is that the tank is in the basement, which while carpeted, does have a floor drain on the un-carpeted side, so about 20 gallons of that water safely went down the drain. The other 10 gallons was soaked up into the carpet and padding. All of this of course coincided with my in-laws arriving to stay with us for the weekend. The first thing I had them do upon arriving at 9pm was help me move the fully assembled 400 lb tank so that I could dry the area underneath. They were good sports about it, and we got it moved to dryer ground. 

After buying the largest dehumidifier I could find as well as 2 box fans, and using every towel I had in the house I had manged to get about 4 gallons of water out of the carpet. I read some previous horror stories of tank mishaps and came across a suggestion of using a rug doctor without the soap to pull up the water. This turned out to be probably the best idea anyone has ever had. I went to home depot and rented a rug doctor and that thing sucked up 6 gallons of water out of carpet in just under an hour. Combined with the dehumidifier and fans the carpet and padding was bone dry by the next morning. 

Also if you need to move a 400lb tank+stand+sump with two people who aren't very strong, we ended up managing it by sliding 3/4" PVC under the tank and rolling it along on 3-4 pieces. Worked like a charm. Unfortunately I was pretty distracted by all the chaos and didn't get any pictures of the festivities... So here is a picture of the basement with all the stuff that will eventually end up as part of this tank...


IMG_1009 


In other news I picked up two 55 gallon water storage drums for $10 each, plumbed them together, stuck a heater and air stone in them and will be using them for aging and mixing my water. I have a double solenoid valve hooked up to my cold water line in the basement, which will turn on for 2-3 minutes a day to refill the storage tanks. The first solenoid is a normally closed valve that only opens when it gets power. If for some reason this valve ever fails open (unlikely but possible) there is an IR water sensor 2" from the top of the barrels that when wet will trigger the second, normally open solenoid, closing it and preventing a flood. I also installed the RODI system and plumbed it into the storage tanks as well. It is set to open up another solenoid 3 times a day and pump in the RODI storage tank of water. Between these two set ups I get a 50/50 mix, bringing my KH and GH to 8, down from 16. All of this is completely automated so the storage tanks are constantly refilled without any input from me. There are 2 IR water sensors on the barrels for safety shutoffs, and the storage tanks sit near the floor drain so any potential flooding will not cause any damage.

IMG_1023

IMG_1022


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

Whew sounds like a long night! Good thing you got that sorted and it wasn't a problem with the tank itself.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Well I've got the hardscape in place, and have the tank fully up and running. I have the apex system fully up and running as well. I'm using the Apex to fully control all aspects of my tank. It controls the CO2, the lights, the heaters, the auto top off, the water changes, return pump speed, and return pump flow, UV, dosing etc. I have 5 IR water level sensors that monitor the water levels of the sump and the water storage tanks to make sure they stay at the correct levels. I also plan to use the apex system to flush the detris off the bottom of the tank by ramping the pump up to 100%. It took a while to get all the programming correct, but the tank is running 100% automated now. 

Week 1 

It certainly is a mess of wires now, hopefully I can clean it up a bit once I have everything finalized. 

APEX

Apex control screen, which I can monitor anywhere in the world. I find the most interesting thing the flow rate of the pump. It is rated at 1200 gallon per hour, and runs at ~375 gallons per hour at 40%, and 600 gph at 80%. My drain can only handle about 500 gph, but I can only get it to about 800 gph at 100%. Just goes to show you how much head restriction can slow down a pump.


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## osmosis (Apr 19, 2017)

I'm excited to see where this is going.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Very impressive work! Wish I understood more about the controller - sounds like something I would do. Unfortunately computer programming is my daughters thing, not mine.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Immortal1 said:


> Very impressive work! Wish I understood more about the controller - sounds like something I would do. Unfortunately computer programming is my daughters thing, not mine.


The programming is actually pretty easy once you understand it. It is all based on if statements. If this then do that. For instance my automatic water change and auto top off program looks like this:

Fallback OFF
If S_Low OPEN Then ON
If S_High CLOSED Then OFF
If Time 20:00 to 20:20 Then ON
If S_EM CLOSED Then OFF

Just those 5 lines, doesn't take anything too fancy, and there are built in programs for most of the basic things. For instance here:

Line 1: Fallback tells the controller what to do if it ever loses communication with the unit. In this case I just keep the pump OFF
Line 2: If my low water sensor is dry (open) then my return chamber needs more water so I turn the auto top off on.
Line 3: If my high water sensor is wet (closed) then I turn off the pump and stop adding water to the sump. 

Lines 2 and 3 work so that the water turns on when the level gets below the low sensor and stays on until it gets above the high sensor

Line 4: Between 8 pm and 8:20 pm turn the pump on. This is my water change. I have an identical pump that pumps water out during the same time period
Line 5: If my emergency high water sensor is wet (closed) then turn off the pump.

It evaluates in order and then does whatever the final state is. So in this case line 4 overrides lines 2 and 3, and line 5 overrides everything. 

I wouldn't let the programming scare you off. They have forums where people are more than happy to help with that side of things. Or just use it as an excuse to get your daughter to come help you out lol.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

It's great to see more process. I'm very curious to see more about how the auto water change works, and where you learned about it. I'm also wondering about your plan to dislodge debris with a strong pump, as there could be some potential for disturbing the plants or substrate too much.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Axelrodi202 said:


> It's great to see more process. I'm very curious to see more about how the auto water change works, and where you learned about it. I'm also wondering about your plan to dislodge debris with a strong pump, as there could be some potential for disturbing the plants or substrate too much.


So far no problems with kicking up of substrate or dislodging plants, but that may change as I plant more things.

I water change scheme I just sort of came up with myself. I had originally thought about using an apex DOS to do water changes, but the lifetime and speed of the pumps wasn't ideal. Then Apex released their new utility pump the PMUP. It is a small cheap apex controlled pump that pumps 100 gph with a 3/8" connection. I figured I could just get two of them (They are only $30 each) and put one in my water storage container and one in the sump. I have them both come on simultaneously, so that water comes out of the dirty water section of the sump and new water is added in the return chamber of the sump. They use the same length of tubing and change the same amount of height so the flow rate is nearly identical. They do use the IR water sensors as backup in case one gets too far ahead of the other, but so far they are identical. 

The one in the water storage container is also used for auto top off. If the low level sensor ever goes dry then it turns on until the high level sensor gets wet. The water storage containers themselves get a daily influx of RO and tap water controlled by solenoids. That is also mostly balanced so that the amount of water in is the same as gets changed every day. Again there are IR water level sensors that turn the water on/off if it gets unbalanced for some reason. The water storage containers also sit near the floor drain in the basement so even if they do overflow no big deal. 

I'm currently struggling to get my kh/gh and pH down. degassed out of the tap I am at 16/16 and 8.4. I'm mixing with RO water but that's only gotten me down to 10/10 8.4. Once I get Co2 up and running the pH will be lower during the day at least. I may end up mixing in some more RO water to try and get the kH down to 8.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Where are you pumping the waste water to? Is the debris powerhead also part of the Apex system?

How will you be automating water production?

CO2 will not do too much for pH if KH is still high.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Even if it does lower the ph some, it's not the right kind of ph change. The natural ph state of the tank is too high, and the co2 is only temporary. You're going to need a lot of peat, or you're going to need to go with remineralized RO.

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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Axelrodi202 said:


> Where are you pumping the waste water to? Is the debris powerhead also part of the Apex system?
> 
> How will you be automating water production?
> 
> CO2 will not do too much for pH if KH is still high.


Waste water is pumped directly into the house sewage drain line. Apex does have controllable power heads but I use the variable speed on my return pump and ramp that up.

Water production is done using a line hooked up to the cold water line and turned on with a timed solenoid valve. RO water is pumped into a pressurized holding tank then dumped into the storage tank once full 3 times a day. This gives me a 50/50 mix.

a 50/50 mix of RO did nothing to lower the pH of the water. I do not want to use peat as that will give me varying pH over time, and i'm not ready to go 100% RO at this point. Hoping there is a better solution. I'll try upping the RO to 60% to start.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

So do you have all the water change components like the return pump variable speed, water mixing, completely automated on a program? Or do you still have to initiate these manually?


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## bblumberg (Sep 6, 2006)

Your approach sounds very interesting. I am trying something similar with a new 150g discus build, trying to make it as low maintenance as possible. All of my FW tanks have been run with Eheim canisters for 25+ years and they do a great job. You might want to reconsider your nitrate remover, though. I tried a variety on my 125g discus tank from Ehfisubstrat, to Ehfisubstrat Pro, to Seakem DeNitrate and finally to Siporax. Siporax in the two 2217 canisters finally kicked my long-standing algae problem in that tank. Lik you, I am building a sump for my discus tank that will hold ~35L of (tediously) stacked Siporax after the filter sock/pad section. I have a similar (albeit smaller) Siporax section in my 150g reef and, so far, nitrates remain ~5-7 PPM after a year. Plus, if you stack the Siporax it doesn't get dirty easily and rinsing will be relatively infrequent.

Good luck,

Bruce

ps. Your tank/stand/canopy are gorgeous.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Axelrodi202 said:


> So do you have all the water change components like the return pump variable speed, water mixing, completely automated on a program? Or do you still have to initiate these manually?


They are all programmed to work automatically. The solenoid on the tap water opens up at 6 am for 2 minutes, adding 8 gallons of water to my water storage tank. The solenoid on the RO system opens at 6 am, 10 am, 2 pm and 6 pm for 10 minutes at a time, delivering a total of 12 gallons of water to the storage tank. At 8 PM my two PMUP's turn on for 20 minutes, one pumping water out of the sump and one pumping water in. No input from me required at all. I can leave the aquarium for up to a month without needing to do anything. After a month my dosing containers run dry and the filters need to be cleaned. The system changes about 20 gallons of water a day, or about 100% weekly. 

I was a little concerned about the dosing with 100% weekly water changes, but it turns out that it stabilizes after a few weeks. I made up a schedule for 50 mL of dosing solution added 3 times a week to see what the overall amount would be with 15% daily water changes. Takes about 6 weeks to fully stabilize, but it is close after 3. 

scheduale


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## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

I worry about putting too many rocks in a tank and cracking the bottom. 
Then I see you sitting in yours......
I guess my worry was unnecessary.

:grin2:


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## freshwater1 (Nov 24, 2016)

I see why the title of this thread has the word "ultra" in it. Very interesting build! I look forward to seeing the progress made. 


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Interesting. So your RO unit always puts out water at a consistent rate? I've found mine to vary slightly. Would still like to know about the debris pump. You mentioned you're not using Apex's, but I assume you are still controlling it via Apex? Sorry for all the questions, I'm not a very technical person. I wonder how you were able to learn about and set this up?

How is the tank itself progressing?


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## Nigel95 (Mar 5, 2017)

Good luck setting it up! Looking forward to the result.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Axelrodi202 said:


> Interesting. So your RO unit always puts out water at a consistent rate? I've found mine to vary slightly. Would still like to know about the debris pump. You mentioned you're not using Apex's, but I assume you are still controlling it via Apex? Sorry for all the questions, I'm not a very technical person. I wonder how you were able to learn about and set this up?
> 
> How is the tank itself progressing?


My RO unit does produce water at a variable rate. It generally takes about 2 hours for it to fill the pressure tank. I give it 4 hours to fill it just to be safe. It flows out of the pressure tank at a very consistent rate once the tank is full. 

Right now I have no separate debris pump. I use my varios6 return pump and ramp up the flow rate for a brief time. It takes the flow from 370gph to ~700gph for 2 minutes. This kicks up some of the debris in the tank. I will probably still need to vacuum the sand once in a while though as it's not perfect. 

The tank is progressing. Plants have been arriving daily, I should have the rest of my orders by this weekend. Once I get it all planted I'll post some more pictures. 

I've also started cycling the tank, and trying to dial in my fertalizer dosing. Having some trouble with the dosing right now so trying to get that sorted out. Need to pick up some CO2 this weekend as well.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

aja31 said:


> Right now I have no separate debris pump. I use my varios6 return pump and ramp up the flow rate for a brief time. It takes the flow from 370gph to ~700gph for 2 minutes. This kicks up some of the debris in the tank. I will probably still need to vacuum the sand once in a while though as it's not perfect.


What I was wondering is if this flow rate ramp up is also controlled by the Apex, since I assume you're not doing it manually. 

Interesting to hear it still leaves some behind. I imagine once you have livestock actively cleaning the bottom (shrimp, Corydoras) this may change. With my 120 I noticed less debris accumulation once I added shrimp.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Axelrodi202 said:


> What I was wondering is if this flow rate ramp up is also controlled by the Apex, since I assume you're not doing it manually.
> 
> Interesting to hear it still leaves some behind. I imagine once you have livestock actively cleaning the bottom (shrimp, Corydoras) this may change. With my 120 I noticed less debris accumulation once I added shrimp.


Ahh, yes the apex is controlling the pump via a 0-10 V input signal. I also have it set up to do feed modes where it drops the pump to 12% which keeps water flowing but at only ~10 gph. This allows me to feed and not have the food swept away into the sump. 

I've run into some problems with the APEX unit yesterday and today unfortunately. I purchased their newly released fluid monitoring module (FMM) to control my RO solenoid as well as the flow rate and the IR sensors. It seems to be periodically locking up on me, which freezes up the solenoid and prevents it from opening until I unplug it and plug it back in. I am keeping an eye on it, but that explains why my pH and kh weren't dropping like I thought they should, I wasn't actually getting RO water mixed in for the last few days. It's probably a software glitch, which means waiting for a firmware upgrade. Not a huge deal, I can do it manually for now and if doesn't get resolved shortly I can swap over to a standard solenoid and control it through a timer. 

Bulk of my plants will arrive tomorrow, i'll update with some pics and a FTS after planting in about 24 hours.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

All my plants arrived this week. Got them all planted. It was sort of like scuba diving, had to stick my head in the water to reach the back corners of the tank. Got all my plants from members here on the forums, special shout out to @huhu89151734 @JoraaÑ @Bartohog @iter @herns for their beautiful selection of plants. 

Also went and picked up my CO2 this weekend, $28 for 20# cylinder, not bad. Got the regulartor hooked up, tried to look for leaks, left it overnight with the tank closed off, and pressure was the same in the morning, so hopefully no problems there. Tried injecting CO2, but had trouble getting the pH drop I wanted. It bottomed out at 7.5, was hoping to get it down to 7.2. My bubble rate was probably somewhere between 10-15 bps, though its hard to tell at that speed. I think outgassing from my sump was a major contributor. I bought an acrylic sheet, cut it out to fit over my sump and applied copious amounts of duck tape to get a decent seal. It is probably 95% sealed up now so I will see if that makes a difference. Only had it on for 3 hours yesterday so today will be the first full day trial. Didn't see any bubbles in the tank, and the reactor wasn't gurgling so for at least 3 hours it is good.

Well onto the good stuff, here is my tank in early morning light and late afternoon light. The sand reflects the light pretty strong in the day, have to figure out a way to get a better shot in higher light.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Nice start, but I would get even more plants if you can. Looks bare for a new tank.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Axelrodi202 said:


> Nice start, but I would get even more plants if you can. Looks bare for a new tank.


There's probably 200 stems in there, along with 2 dozen crypts, 2 dozen Anubis and a few dozen various other plants. I'm going to let it grow in for a while and see. I don't want too many plants to start off with for the discus. There is also a lot of vertical space that makes it seem more empty than it is. Hopefully I can get some of the stems tall enough to fill some of that space in the back. Might get a few large swords to help as well. 

I got my CO2 dialed in today, and saw a few of my plants actually start to pearl during the highest portion of my photoperiod. I may need to up my light intensity a bit but i'm going to give it a week or so and see. I only top out at 50% right now so I have plenty of room to increase if need be. 

I was going to wait a month to get fish, but it seems my tank has somehow self cycled. I've had water in it for a few weeks but just planted yesterday and did my first ammonia dose yesterday as well. Today my ammonia read 0 and my nitrites read 5 ppm. I may be able to get some fish earlier than I thought if everything looks good in a week or so.

Might still wait a while so I can get everything else running smoothly. my nitrates and phosphates are both really high right now, but with all the plants in they should hopefully start coming down and hopefully reach a lower equilibrium, if not i'll have to adjust my dosing down.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

By bare I was referring not to overall volume, but portion substrate covered. Dense planting from the start helps greatly with running a stable tank. 200 stems in a tank that size is nothing. 

If you have or can buy a PAR meter this is extremely helpful for adjusting light intensity.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Axelrodi202 said:


> By bare I was referring not to overall volume, but portion substrate covered. Dense planting from the start helps greatly with running a stable tank. 200 stems in a tank that size is nothing.
> 
> If you have or can buy a PAR meter this is extremely helpful for adjusting light intensity.


This is what he's talking about. I just planted this on Friday, but I did what I could to cover as much of the substrate as possible. This tank is 72"x18", and has easily 300 stems/clumps.























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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

I'll see how tank maintenance with the discus go before covering much more of the tank. I'm sure the people over at simply discus would have a heart attack with how many plants are already in there. Saw a few snail hitch hikers this morning, but not too worried about them, the zebra loaches will hunt down the snails, it will make a nice snack for them.

More concerning is the hair algae I spotted today. It's not unexpected, i'm still trying to find the right balance of CO2 and light, so they are fluctuating all over the place the last few days. Unfortunately I don't have a PAR meter and I don't think I can justify the expense for a one time use of a few hours. 

On the bright side i'm getting closer with dialing in my CO2, had it just about right after work today, just needs a little more adjustment and I think i'll have it just right. 

Cycling is also progressing fast, I'm converting all my ammonia to nitrite within 24 hours now, just need to wait and see the nitrite start dropping. I could probably add fish soon, but I want to make sure everything is stable first so I will probably wait until the end of the month.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

You should be fine with dense planting given your bare area at the front. A dense tank with high plant mass actually ends up being cleaner and easier to maintain. 

Hair algae is the most frustrating algae in the hobby. Treat your tank with API Algaefix. It's safe for plants (but not livestock) until it's extinct. This may seem drastic, but would you rather avoid this only to have to pull out hair algae every few days for as long as the tank lives? Hair algae is not like other algae. It cannot be reasoned with. It will not be happy until it has choked out everything in your tank.

I would add amano shrimp for algae control as soon as the tank is cycled. ~100 to start is a safe bet, though realistically in the long term more like 50-70 should be fine.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Well the algae is currently winning. I've spotted diatoms, BBA, Hair algae, and green spot algae. I've cut my light intensity by ~20% throughout the photoperiod and increased my CO2. I hadn't tested my KH in 5 days and it has finally started dropping now that I have my RO/Tap mixture down. I was assuming it was 11, but it is in fact 8. So i've been underdosing CO2 as well as having too much light. Now that I've corrected those two issues I am dosing the tank with API algaefix at 2x the recommended dose since I have no livestock. It also probably doesn't help that i've been dosing ammonia for cycling. 


This weekend i'll do a full cleaning of the tank to remove all the melted leaves and debris that got added during planting. My plants are doing very well for the most part, a few are melting, but my java fern and left side nana petite is pearling like crazy. Never had pearling before so that's kind of cool. Oddly enough my nana petite on the right side is not pearling and is getting covered in algae. I might need more flow towards that area, i'll have to look into getting a powerhead. I'll update this weekend with new pictures too... some of my stems have grown 2-3 inches this week which is pretty awesome.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Keep up the good work. It may help to temporarily turn off pumps for about a half hour right after dosing Algaefix over afflicted areas. You must defeat the hair algae, or you will never be able to leave the tank alone for more than a few days. Other types can be managed. 

Removing dead plant matter is very important. If plants have melted beyond repair, toss them.

What are you basing your CO2 on? Too much CO2 can also cause algae issues...


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

Gonna second what Axelrodi was asking about how you are measuring CO2. For the opposite reason though, I think maybe you could be running low. Sometimes the pH/KH chart is a bit wonky, especially if your actively changing the KH too. Was gonna say use a drop checker but your tank is huge.
Lowering light intensity is always a good idea, as well as chucking anything that doesn't look healthy or is already algae afflicted. Maybe chuck in some
Purigen into the filter too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

I am currently using a ph probe in the sump to measure my CO2. My kh should be pretty constant now but I'll measure it every few days to make sure. I will probably measure the display ph tonight and compare to the sump ph. I'm hoping they are pretty close. Based on the ph chart I should now be at 24 ppm CO2. Running a ph of 7.00, outgasses to 8.2 overnight kh of 8.


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## slythy (Sep 1, 2015)

Your sump water level looks high, have you tested a power outage? If the pump stops it looks like it will over flow and cause a mess. How is your overflow plumbed? I would look into a failsafe model.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

slythy said:


> Your sump water level looks high, have you tested a power outage? If the pump stops it looks like it will over flow and cause a mess. How is your overflow plumbed? I would look into a failsafe model.


No problems there. It fills to 0.5" from the top when the power cuts out. I have a sensor in there that monitors the working level and keeps the water level at or below that level. 

I did my first full tank clean last night. The filter pads were clogged up causing the water to run over them instead of through them. Sump levels worked as planned to allow that to happen without causing the pump to run dry. 

Amazing how much crud managed to get into the filters even with no fish. All those fine sand particles from initial tank fill mostly along with some melting plants and dead algae. My algae treatments are done and almost all the algae is dead, I'll have to keep an eye on it and make sure it has stopped growing now that I have my parameters more or less in check. 

Tank shots coming tomorrow


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Sounds like you're making good progress. Be sure to be thorough with the hair algae treatment. Even a single surviving strand can return with a vengeance to wreak havoc.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

So this is something that may or may not interest anyone, but i've found it quite interesting and fun to track. My Apex system has an ORP probe that constantly monitors the ORP of the tank. I read through multiple articles on ORP and what it should be in a healthy aquarium, and basically came to the conclusion that no one actually knows and every tank is different enough that you can't assign it a single range/number. However, being able to track the trends and changes has proven much more useful to me. Below is my ORP chart over the last few days with all the important events labeled.



When the CO2 turns on in the morning it spikes up 50 mV in about an hour. This is a good indication that my CO2 is on and at the right level. My UV steralizer turns on for 4 hours, starting an hour after the CO2 comes on, you can see this as it causes the ORP to decrease by 50 mV, bringing it back down to where it was before. As soon as the UV turns off it starts to climb back up. When the CO2 turns off for the night the ORP dips back down, indicating i'm getting good aeration and offgassing. My dosing pumps dose my macros/micros on alternating days an hour before the CO2 comes on. You can see this on the chart as well. Micros cause a 10 mV dip in the ORP and macros cause a 10 mV jump. Good indication that the correct amount of ferts are dosed and that the dosing pump is working correctly. The one thing that I did not expect was cleaning my filters caused a massive drop in the ORP. Nearly a 125 mV drop by cleaning out the filters and replacing my purigen. CO2 levels were mostly unaffected by the filter cleaning so it was not a CO2 outgassing that caused the drop. I know this because my tank pH stayed the same during the filter cleaning. 

I have no idea what number/range my ORP "should" be at, but it is a very nice quick overview of my aquariums health. Once I have fish I will be able to tell feeding time and be immediately warned of any deaths by changes in the ORP. No more having something die and polluting the tank for 3 days before I find it. The ORP will let me know in a few hours tops.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Fascinating! So you're using ORP patterns to indicate if ferts are being dosed as they should, even for ones that can't be tested directly for. I think I'll have to borrow this idea in the future!

Good point about it indicating fish deaths, though if you have enough amano shrimp any casualties don't stay around for very long...


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

As promised, here is my latest fts. As you can see the front sand is having some algae issues. No problems where there are plants, but in my open swimming space I now have a green patch. two of my nana petites have come dislodged from their superglue as well so I need to reglue them to the wood sometime today. Plants are growing, especially in the middle of the tank. Some are still acclimating, but only 1 or two seem to be getting worse. Hoping they'll recover. 



My cycle is just about done. If my ammonia and nitrites read 0 tomorrow then I will probably order fish/shrimp on Monday.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Well cleaning the tank messed up my cycle somehow. Not sure what happened, but my ammonia is no longer going down. 

The hair algae never came back, but that green slime on the sand got significantly worse. I broke it up, removed more dead leaves, cut my photoperiod intensity spread and increased my UV sterilizer on time. I have a powerhead coming next week to increase circulation and aeration which i'm hoping helps.

I got nice pearling when I had the light dialed in higher, but too much algae. Now I don't get much pearling with the lower light. How do people get plants to pearl without crazy algae? I'm wondering if my plant mass just isn't enough yet? i'm dropping 1.2 points in pH I don't really want to go higher, my nitrates are sitting at ~20 ppm and my phosphates are off the chart. I will probably have to cut my phosphate dosing.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Pearling is a sign of oxygen saturation, and =/= healthy plants. You should be aiming for healthy growth, and the algae will go away on its own 

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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

aja31 said:


> The hair algae never came back, but that green slime on the sand got significantly worse. I broke it up, removed more dead leaves, cut my photoperiod intensity spread and increased my UV sterilizer on time. I have a powerhead coming next week to increase circulation and aeration which i'm hoping helps.


The green slime looks like BGA, you may want to bomb it with some Excel or H2O2.
Keep lighting conservative for now, and maybe consider getting some floating plants to bulk up the plant mass.



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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Yes cut the phosphates. Even very low levels (1-2 ppm) are sufficient, especially since your plant mass is not high.

BGA suggests microbial imbalance, or high organics (such as from decaying plants). If you have not already add some bacterial additives (I like ADA's) and remove any decaying/melting plants.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Well I did as much research as I could on BGA, and generally it is caused by poor circulation, low oxygen, low nitrates and too much light. I know my circulation is an issue, my Vortech MP-10 arrives tomorrow to correct that. Low oxygen is possible in the dead zones, though I have no way of measuring that. Low nitrates I thought was absurd because it was off the charts last week... turns out when I measured it today my nitrates were only at 5 ppm. PO4 is still off the charts so I refilled my dosing container with a 50% increase in KNO3 and no KH2PO4. That should give me 25% more KNO3 and a 50% decrease in KH2PO4. 

Finally I decided to go nuclear on the BGA. I siphoned off about 80% of it then started a maracyn treatment. That should knock it out, combined with increased flow and nitrates should prevent it from coming back. Cycle is probably a lost cause at this point, but that's ok, i'd rather get everything balanced and working well first.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Poor circulation, O2, and light are definitely factors. Low nitrates are not so much a direct cause. Usually when they cause BGA it is because there isn't enough for plants, causing them to deteriorate in condition and shed leaves or melt, which raises the organic load in the tank. 5 ppm is not too low.

If you can, dim the lights over the empty sand foreground. Corydoras will also help.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

aja31 said:


> So this is something that may or may not interest anyone, but i've found it quite interesting and fun to track. My Apex system has an ORP probe that constantly monitors the ORP of the tank. I read through multiple articles on ORP and what it should be in a healthy aquarium, and basically came to the conclusion that no one actually knows and every tank is different enough that you can't assign it a single range/number. However, being able to track the trends and changes has proven much more useful to me. Below is my ORP chart over the last few days with all the important events labeled.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Reading this reminds my of my first cell phone which was a smartphone and it was much smarter than I when it comes to technology. Its sounds so very interesting and yet its so far over my head I envy this project.

Dan

Dan


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Day two of maracyn dosing. BGA is almost all gone. Treatment is 5 days, and don't want to make super BGA so on the dosing goes. That stuff works wonders. Doing daily vacuuming of the substrate to pull up the dead algae and any decaying plant matter. Bought some more plants to fill some more spots in as well.

One unexpected and unfortunate side effect of the maracyn is the torrent of bubbles everywhere in my sump. It looks like an over soaped washing machine in my sump right now. I had to do some redesign this morning before work because there were bubbles pouring over the sides of the sump. Sump is now bubble proof, so hopefully that won't be a problem anymore. 

Got my powerhead today. Vortech MP-10W, silent and powerful. My tank has visibly better flow now, with the stems slightly bent over by the powerhead and everything now waving gently in the current. Lots of junk got kicked up when I first turned it on, it was perfect. with the extra flow I adjusted one of my returns towards the surface which now gives me a nice surface ripple across the front of the tank which should help with oxygen exchange as well. I may end up turning the powerhead down a little so my stems can grow straight again but i'll leave it up for the remainder of the BGA treatment. 

Think everything is finally back on track. Lost a week, but no big deal, been planning this tank for 2 years, whats another week. I am excited to get shrimp/fish though. I'll do another round of pictures this weekend as well.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Adding a power head and adjusting your filter output is going to change the amount of CO2 you need to pump. Just a heads up...

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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

jellopuddinpop said:


> Adding a power head and adjusting your filter output is going to change the amount of CO2 you need to pump. Just a heads up...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


No problem there today. I think the change in CO2 outgassing pales in comparison to what happens in my sump. There is a lot of gas exchange in my durso standpipe. 

Orp has been continually climbing as I add medication. It's up to 430 which is the high end of where reef keepers hold it. It will be interesting to see if the antibiotics drive it above 500.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Did you consider Chemiclean?
Boyd Enterprises | Chemiclean - Boyd Enterprises


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

aja31 said:


> Got my powerhead today. Vortech MP-10W, silent and powerful. My tank has visibly better flow now, with the stems slightly bent over by the powerhead and everything now waving gently in the current. Lots of junk got kicked up when I first turned it on, it was perfect. with the extra flow I adjusted one of my returns towards the surface which now gives me a nice surface ripple across the front of the tank which should help with oxygen exchange as well. I may end up turning the powerhead down a little so my stems can grow straight again but i'll leave it up for the remainder of the BGA treatment.


Yes, it sounds like your powerhead is currently too powerful. The beauty of Vortech is that the flow rate is easily adjustable. I'd try turning it down a bit sooner rather than later. Bending over your stems is not good for their health, which could lead to further melting and organics which will just feed algae. The key is not to have super strong current throughout the tank, but rather to avoid completely stagnant dead spots.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Ok week 3 picture time! My BGA outbreak treatment is finished, I don't see any of it left in the tank. I did a 50% water change today, added in some carbon to remove any residual medicine, and will run my UV for the next 48 hours straight to kill anything left floating in the water. Interestingly enough I think the bacteria was keeping my ORP lower. I mentioned it raised when I started the antibiotics, but even after the water change adding the carbon, and turning on the UV it has not dropped back down that much. 

I've dialed in my vortech so I get beautiful circulation now. It was great when I added my antibiotics to the tank I could see the exact flow pattern and coverage of the tank circulation. The antibiotics distributed nearly perfectly across the entire tank volume. I also added a drop checker so that I could have a quick double check that my CO2 is correct. I was a little worried it was off since my pH probe is in the sump after most of the off gassing occurs, but turns out it is just about perfect. It was a nice deep green color when the lights turned on, and is now a light green during the peak photo period. This morning before the lights turned on it was blue again. 



I bought more plants earlier this week and moved a few things around. I'm still getting pretty good growth, I think the acclimation process took longer than I thought. My crypts are still melting their old leaves, but i'm seeing new growth for the first time now. My stems melted a lot of their bottom leaves, but there is new growth on the top and even self made side shoots. my DHG is mostly doing nothing, which I guess is better than melting, but i'm hoping it will start growing/spreading soon. The plant that is doing the best is definitely my Myrophyllom Red. It has grown at least 6 inches since I've gotten it. I've already clipped it down and replanted the tops in the back of the aquarium.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

The Shrimp have arrived! Ordered 40 Amano shrimp this weekend from Rachel O'leary over at Invertebrates by Msjinkzd - Specializing in invertebrates and micro fish from around the world. 



They arrived well packaged and alive, with no visible sign of any disease. I used Rachel's pour and plop method, and got them all in the tank asap.

Here is a shot from this morning right after adding them:



Got home from work 12 hours later and only managed to find about 15 shrimp. I figured at least some were hiding, but 15 seemed pretty low. After searching for a good 10 minutes I opened up my sump cabinet to find no less than 15 shrimp hanging out in my sump... they all survived the ride down and were happily cleaning my filter media. I cut up an old net and taped it to my overflow to prevent any more from going for a ride. I then spent 45 minutes chasing shrimp around my sump into every nook and cranny possible until I finally got every one that I could find back into the tank. I'm hoping tomorrow morning I don't have any new sump arrivals. 

On the positive side after just 12 hours and only half my shrimp my driftwood is spotless. It is algae free and cleaner than when I bought it. The sand is also noticeably cleaner and I didn't even realize it was dirty. I'm hoping that within a week my tank will be algae/detris free. Of course then I will have to start feeding them, but that's a good problem to have.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Glad to hear they're working out for you. They take care of algae for sure, but not detritus (except eating up rotting plants).


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Well the shrimp are determined to clean my sump. Woke up this morning to 20 shrimp in my sump. Thankfully no losses, I think they just like the ride down. 

I don't really know how they got past the net I set up. They must have purposefully crawled under it and then gotten sucked in the stand pipe. I put one of my seachem the bags over the end of the standpipe and zip tied it on. There is no way for them to get down there now. I also ordered some courser media bags and some magnets to secure a better net on the overflow that will let plant matter down the sump but not shrimp. Hopefully that will solve the problem. One of those unforeseen issues lol

It's no fun spending 2 hours chasing shrimp around a sump in a cabinet.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

If anyone ever attempts to use a fine mesh bag to cover their sump intake, let me tell you... that is a terrible idea... 

Sometime during the day it collected enough debris to slow down the flow. This caused my sump to run dry. Thankfully I have the automation so my top off pump kicked on and filled the sump back up. This caused more water to get pumped to the display, which caused the top off pump to kick on.... this continued throughout the day until the pressure of all the extra water was enough to push water through the clogged drain and a new equilibrium was reached. 

Thankfully I planned for this contingency and the top part of my tank is also glass behind the wood. This means the tank can fill an extra 40 gallons before actually overflowing. When I got home and saw what had happened the water level was about an inch from the top which would have been a disaster. Thankfully no water actually hit the floor but it took a while to pump all the extra water out and clean up the tank. Somewhere in that cycle it blew debris all over the tank. It seems my return plumbing has some sort of gunk in it. I think it is dead algae from the looks of it, but I have no idea how it got into my return plumbing and I have no idea how to get it out without spraying it all over the tank like I did today. 

I got some course sponges, cut them to size and stuff them across the overflow slots now and clipped them in place. So far no shrimp taking rides and no problems with the overflow but i'm going to keep a closer eye on it now. Who knew my shrimp would end up being so much trouble. 

To top it all off I only have been able to find 12-14 shrimp today. Not sure where they are all hiding, but I did fund a bunch of molts and only 1 dead shrimp. I looked long and hard for any other deaths but didn't find any, hopefully they are just hiding really well.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Woke up today to 8 shrimp in the sump. Managed to get 6 of them out before work and reinforced my sponge barrier. 

I'm also a little worried about oxygen content in my tank. During the day it seems fine but I noticed this morning that there were 9 shrimp all the way at the top of the tank on the glass in the return flow. It's a 300 gph flow I have no idea how they managed to stay put there but there were all stacked up. I'm wondering if there isn't enough oxygen at the bottom of the tank. I ordered an air stone that I'll run at night starting this weekend. I thought having a sump would offer good oxygenation but the shrimp don't seem to think so. 

I'm glad I am sorting out all these issues before I buy fish otherwise this could have been a nightmare.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Low O2 is a possibility. I find the most to least sensitive to high CO2 are dwarf shrimp, Otocinclus, and amano shrimp. Could be your CO2 injection rate is too high as well, especially since you have a low plant mass currently. Warning signs of acute toxicity are that they will start swimming around the tank acting drunk (loss of precise motor control).


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Axelrodi202 said:


> Low O2 is a possibility. I find the most to least sensitive to high CO2 are dwarf shrimp, Otocinclus, and amano shrimp. Could be your CO2 injection rate is too high as well, especially since you have a low plant mass currently. Warning signs of acute toxicity are that they will start swimming around the tank acting drunk (loss of precise motor control).


When the CO2 is ON they are fine. They swim around occasionally but mostly wander around the plants and sand like I expect. It's once the lights/CO2 go off that they start acting weird. I turned off my CO2 early tonight so hopefully that helps. I also left the tank cover off to allow better mixing of air in the display instead of just in the sump. 

I did come home to no additional shrimp in the sump and no other issues, so that was good. Might finally have that part figured out. fingers crossed.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Very interesting. I suspect running an airstone at night will help.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Well time for my weekly full tank shot, but first an update:

Shrimp situation is finally calming down. I have a course netting set up covering my overflow and intake. It doesn't clog, but also doesn't let shrimp through. No more shrimp in the sump since doing that. The shrimp have been behaving more normally as well. I let the lid off for a few days and unsealed my sump and that seems to have helped. I added the lid back on today so we'll see if they are ok tomorrow. Also going to run an airstone at night. Unfortunately I did lose 2 more shrimp. I found their bodies on the floor of the stand, I think they must have jumped out of the net when I was netting them out of the sump and into the aquarium a few days ago. That brings me to 4 total losses, with hopefully 34 shrimp remaining. 

On the more positive side of things all the remaining shrimp look happy and have really cleaned up the dead algae and decaying plant matter. Tank looks much better than it did before I got them. Growth is also coming along nicely. Whatever this grass stuff is it is sending out multiple runners in every direction and has sprouted 5-6 mini plants which are taking off.


IMG_1161

My nana petite has really taken off. It has about doubled in volume since I got it. The older leaves unfortunately have some BBA on them, but it has stopped growing, now it is just on the old leaves. I'll kill and remove them once they bulk up a little more.

IMG_1165 

My red plants have stayed nice and red so far, which is good. I have never kept any of the red tinted plants before so I wasn't sure what would happen. They are slower growing, but look healthy

IMG_1163


Finally, the FTS for week 4, pretty happy with the growth so far, coming from only having low tech set-ups in the past I was used to measuring things in months, not days and weeks:

Week 4


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Good progress. It is sure nice to use CO2 and not have your tank look in suspended animation for weeks at a time!


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Well I was away for the weekend on vacation, so i'm a few days late on my weekly tank shot, but here it is. Things are really taking off now, going to need to do a real trim soon probably. The grass in the front is really spreading, might have to trim it back as I want some free sand space in the front for my eventual loaches. Sprimp are all doing well and tank is finally fully cycled. Going to add fish this week hopefully.

Week 6 Aquarium


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Well photobucket has decided to try and hold my photos ransom and extort money out of me to get them back. Instead I deleted them all off of photobucket and am slowly migrating over to flickr. There are still a few dead pictures but I think most of them are back up and running. 

In other news, I GOT FISH! I went this week and got 30 cherry barbs and 4 zebra loaches. I have another 10 zebra loaches and 30 silver hatchets on order and they should be in on Wednesday. It's been 5 days now and no losses, everyone seems settled in and is eating well. The amano shrimp as just as bold as I remember. They regularly bounce off the other fish to get where they are going, and will charge straight through a school to get to something they want. 

My zebra loaches like to sleep in the powerhead when it turns off for the night, so i've turned it off all the time until I can figure out how to not make zebra loach smoothies. I'm still working on getting some decent pictures of them all, but here is the weekly tank shot. I did some major trimming, not that you can tell. Took out clump and clumps of that grass in the front and half a bucket full of rotala's, but it barely made a dent. I will have to do a more aggressive trim this week.

Week 7


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Congratulations on the fish. What temperature is the tank running currently?


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Axelrodi202 said:


> Congratulations on the fish. What temperature is the tank running currently?


It's currently running at 79 degrees. I will be bringing it up 0.2 degrees a week until I get to 83 for the discus, and then back down 0.2 degrees a week to a final temperature of 81 and see how everyone does there. A single discus costs as much as an entire school of the other fish, so what makes the discus happy will be the ultimate decision.


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## StevieD (Jun 17, 2017)

How did you attach the petite to the driftwood, thread or glue?

Thanks in advance.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

StevieD said:


> How did you attach the petite to the driftwood, thread or glue?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


I used gel superglue. Worked like a charm. Took a few tries to get the hang of it, but it worked out very well. The roots have pretty much hidden all the super glue at this point.

Tank underwent another big trim this week, it is slowly taking shape, still has a way to go. Also been battling algae again, I have 2-3 different types that is slowly spreading. Not really sure of the cause, all my parameters seem to be correct and stable, and the light is the same intensity it has been. It seems the more plant mass I have the more the algae grows, but I can't find any nutrient that is bottoming out, at least not one I can test for. I'm dosing full EI. 

Here is the current FTS:

Week 8 aquarium


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Wow the growth in 6 weeks is amazing! One day I may try Discus. Are you planning to buy full grown? I love the snakeskin ones. It's going to be awesome


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

aja31 said:


> It seems the more plant mass I have the more the algae grows, but I can't find any nutrient that is bottoming out, at least not one I can test for. I'm dosing full EI.


The full EI regime may be the root of your issues. Nutrient excess can be much quicker to cause algae than deficiency. I don't think your future discus will appreciate full EI either.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Axelrodi202 said:


> The full EI regime may be the root of your issues. Nutrient excess can be much quicker to cause algae than deficiency. I don't think your future discus will appreciate full EI either.


Yeah I think now that I have higher bio load I may need to cut down on my macros. My nutrient dosing containers are almost empty so i'll use this as an opportunity to try tweaking my dosing schedule for a bit. 

I ordered 30 silver hatchets and another 8 zebra loaches but they didn't come in last week, now I am going to be out of town for a week so I won't be getting them for at least another week.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Well it has been a long time since i've updated this journal. Life got really busy for me. My wife and I just had our first baby and I used the rest of the summer to do as much housework and projects as I could before the baby arrived. Thankfully the tank, being fully automated, needed very little input from me. The cherry barbs thrived over the summer and there are baby cherry barbs everywhere. 

The plants however have struggled. I don't think I had enough CO2 and my light was too bright. I tried adjusting it down, but without a PAR meter it was hard to tell how exactly I should adjust it. I broke down and bought a PAR meter and found that my light was about 6" too far to the one side of the tank and my DHG was getting almost 0 PAR which is why it was struggling so bad with algae. The center of the tank was getting too much PAR at around 60, also leading to algae. I upped the CO2, reduced the lighting and started a double excel dose with daily vacuuming of the algae. Once things started to look better I decided it was time for more fish. 

With how busy life is I ultimately decided not to get discus. Also the silver hatchets I wanted never came in. The local stores haven't been able to get them and I didn't really want to order them online. Since I was no longer doing the large discus or second school of smaller fish I decided to go for some medium sized fish. To this end I bought 12 Congo Tetras and 6 Black Angelfish. This brings my tank up to fully stocked and quite active.



The congo's are especially brilliant and they really colored up once they were in the tank. 



On a much less exciting note, the Congo's unfortunately brought Ich with them, and I do not have the time, or space currently for a separate quarantine tank. I knew it would be an issue, which is why I bought fish from hardy and cheap to more expensive so that I wouldn't have to worry about killing off any prize fish with new cheap fish. I am currently doing the quadruple punch treatment for ich of 86.5 degree water, 0.5 tsp per gallon salt (That is a lot of salt in a 130g), 24/7 Level 2 UV sterilization and double dose of Kordon Ich Attach. I am 1 week into the treatment right now and haven't lost a single fish and there are no longer any visible signs of the ich. I will keep the heat and salt for another week minimum, and then keep the ich attack and UV for an additional 2 weeks after that. No one seems bothered by the treatment, even the zebra loaches are fine, who I was most worried about with the salt. 

Unfortunately, while the fish are all fine, the plants are suffering and the algae is returning in full force with the treatment. The tank quite frankly looks pretty terrible at the moment, but I don't want to trim or make any changes until after the treatment is done. 



I should hopefully be keeping this more updated now that life has settled down and I am stuck inside for the winter.


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## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

Looks good and I bet everything will bounce back quick when you get done with your ick treatment.

I really enjoy posts like this where people/you go through your thought process on figuring out a problem. It helps me with ideas on what to do when I am having trouble.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Personally... I think the tank looks awesome especially given the ich setback. I love Congo Tetras and Angels... awesome choice! When you feel more comfortable with the appearance I'd love to see a video of the action. I had a group of 8 Congo's and 2 Phillipine Blue Angels in a 75 with some Rams for a while. They were either hiding in the dense planting or they were racing each other from side to side at a furious pace. I lost the whole group in a move a couple years ago. Congo's are one of those fish that just get more impressive looking as time goes on. You can ALWAYS spot the dominant male.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

60 umol PAR at substrate is what I'd consider medium light.

Your problems are not from a lack of CO2. They are from high organics.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Axelrodi202 said:


> 60 umol PAR at substrate is what I'd consider medium light.
> 
> Your problems are not from a lack of CO2. They are from high organics.


Any suggestions for reducing organics? Before the ich outbreak TDS was running about 220 (my RO/tap mix is 125). The tank does daily 15% water changes, though I was thinking of moving to a once a week 50% change since i'm not getting Discus. I try to vacuum the substrate once a week, but I will say that at 130 gallons there is a LOT of mulm build up in a week.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Mulm buildup is a sign something is very wrong. Usually this comes from unhealthy plants. What are PAR readings throughout the tank base? What is your dosing like? How much CO2 are you running?


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