# Soilmaster Select PH??



## saint27 (Apr 27, 2006)

Increase your KH by adding some Baking Soda. That will bring up your pH and add some buffer to your system


----------



## fusQer (Jan 23, 2006)

i used the soilmaster soil conditioner red and had no effect on PH that i can tell. of course im using the milwaukee PH controller too, but it seems to be on more than it it off. my tap ph is 8.0


----------



## thadius65 (Sep 15, 2006)

I wonder if my probe from the PH controller got dry during my tank swap and needs recalibrated? Possibly.... Hmmm.


----------



## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

I have SMS in my 46 and it caused no effect on the PH.


----------



## thadius65 (Sep 15, 2006)

Just in case, I recalibrated PH probe for my SMS122. It was off, but in the wrong direction. PH read 5.5 after recalibration. Did a 50% water change and got it to 5.8. Will this adjust after time? I am afraid to turn on CO2 for fear PH change even worse.

Thanks,

Ted


----------



## thadius65 (Sep 15, 2006)

Did some additional testing.

Hardness readings as follows:

GH -- 7-8dGH (125.3-143.2PPM)
KH -- 0-1dKH (0-17.9PPM)

Pre-move to new tank, KH was 1-2dKH. 

Thanks,

Ted


----------



## thadius65 (Sep 15, 2006)

Someone please help. PH is now 5.2....

Thanks,

Ted


----------



## Aquamanx (Sep 28, 2006)

Damn! Sorry, I can't help. I used SMS Charcoal, & I didn't have any PH swings that I noticed... I'll double check tonight... I don't run CO2 so, I can't help you there either.


----------



## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

keep doing water changes until whatever contaminant in there is gone. There is obviously something in the soilmaster casuing this, unless something else was changed. Did you add something new other than the substrate? A new kind of rock or wood or something?


----------



## thadius65 (Sep 15, 2006)

The only thing other than the Soilmaster Select, was the rocks used in the retaining wall below:










Changed out filter floss in fluvals, thats about it. (product in bags on driftwood is old substrate to add to bio).

Oh, and it is amazing how pesky duck-weed grows. Lynn, I think there was like two pieces in the plants you sent . This weekend I dumped about 3,000pieces in my pond outside for the goldfish to enjoy!

Thanks,

Ted


----------



## ianiwane (Sep 7, 2004)

Don't you think that big peice of wood could be leaching tannins into the water causing some change in pH? What was your pH before you moved the sms into the tank with your previous substrate? What was your previous substrate?


----------



## thadius65 (Sep 15, 2006)

That driftwood was in prior with no issues. Substrate was gravel prior with PH around 6.8 out of tap and around 6.2 with CO2 injection. This is now in the 5.2-5.6 range without any CO2. Only add were those rocks in the picture and the Soilmaster Select substrate.

Ted


----------



## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

Sorry about the Duckweed....Bob gave me some with some plants and it is forever multiplying...lol
I keep netting it out. Eventually it will be all gone.


As for the pH issue....

This is what I think you should do. Since the Soilmaster typically does not lower pH and your driftwood is established already, this is what I think you should do.

Take all of the retaining wall rock out and place it in a bucket. Add tap water and let it sit overnight. After placing the rocks in a bucket, do a waterchange 50-60% in your tank SANS rock.
The next day, test the pH in the bucket with the rock in it. <Just bring the bucket up to the level of the meter, and test it...>

You answer will likey be found after this experiment.

Let me know!


----------



## thadius65 (Sep 15, 2006)

Why can't all plants be as easy as duckweed to grow??? :hihi: 

FYI -- PH was making progress, but again plummeted to 5.2 this morning.

I think my current test in progress should yeild same results as your recommendation. Let me know if not:

3 - equal size containers w/ equal amounts of tap water.

cup 1 - only tap water
cup 2 - tap water and hardscape rock
cup 3 - tap water and Soilmaster Select from tank

I am going to let sit til this afternoon. Then test PH of all three. Tap is typically 6.8. Tank previously was 6.6 and then 6.2 w/ CO2.

I sure hope it is the rocks, but I cannot imagine that those few could do this much to the amount of water I have.

Also, the only other thing I did was to clean this new (dusty) tank with a 50/50 mix of water and white vinegar. I realize that is acidic, but it was just used to mist/wipe the inside of the tank... couldn't be it, could it?


----------



## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

thadius65 said:


> Why can't all plants be as easy as duckweed to grow??? :hihi:
> 
> FYI -- PH was making progress, but again plummeted to 5.2 this morning.
> 
> ...


eeeeeeek that is definitely part of it for sure.
I think the results form the "bucket" test will be telling. If it ends up being the Soilmaster, you can safely assume it is tainted ...call Lesco and they will replace it. But hold your opinion for the hard evidence


----------



## thadius65 (Sep 15, 2006)

"Cup" test provided results I did not want... I was hoping for the hardscape/rocks to be the cause, but they were not. Results as follows:

Tap = 6.8PH
Tap + rock = 6.6PH
Tap + Soilmaster Select = 5.xPH (test only goes to 6.0 and lighter)

Current Tank PH = 5.3PH

This was after all sitting overnight. So, the question is, will 50% over and over and over... etc, get this water to where it needs to be? Or is Baking soda in order, or do I need to consider getting it out of the tank. I don't know if I really want to do that..Unless no other possibility of fixing issue.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Ted


----------



## junco (Aug 27, 2006)

SMS lowered my pH also. Our tap is typically around 8 and my tank is at 6.5 w/ CO2 going. I need to up the Co2 but Ihavae some pH sensitive fish so I think I'll be adding baking soda to allow me to do this. Weekly 50% water changes for over a month now and the pH hasn't changed. I beleive the SMS might also lower the KH as out of the tap KH is around 11 and in my tank now its about 7. 

Anyone know how much baking soda to add? Is there a guide somewhere?


----------



## ianiwane (Sep 7, 2004)

What kind of fish do you have? Unless you have some fish that require really hard water I would not raise the kH any more.


----------



## thadius65 (Sep 15, 2006)

My KH is now somewhere between 0 and 1KH. It was 1-2KH prior. Fish/enviro as follows:

120G Tank, Fluval 304 & 404, 2-300w Visi-therm heaters, Planted with gravel substrate, Greg Watson Ferts, Excel for Algae (when needed), CRS and RCS shrimp, (4) Clown loaches, (2) Angelicus Botia, (1) Kuhli Loach, (7) Silver Angels, (11) Cardinal Tetras
(3) Ottos

I am not concerned about KH, just that I would like to start dosing CO2 again. I am concerned with a 5.3-5.4PH with no CO2 and a 0-1KH, I would be asking for trouble....


----------



## ianiwane (Sep 7, 2004)

sorry thadius65 I was refering to the post right above mine.


----------



## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

I have SMS... I rinsed the crap out of it before I put it in the tank. For a couple of hours. Used a huge bucket. an stuck a hose in the very bottom. When it started running clear, I would stir it all up again. I repeated this several times over the course of 2 hours, till the water finally ran clear.

I have had no ph issues at all..


----------



## thadius65 (Sep 15, 2006)

Live and learn.... I was reading not to rinse as it would cause it to break apart / cause more dust. Guess there are some that do and some that don't. I wish I had..


----------



## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

thadius65 said:


> Live and learn.... I was reading not to rinse as it would cause it to break apart / cause more dust. Guess there are some that do and some that don't. I wish I had..


Thus your problem!! Where did you read that anyways??

I have the SMS red, an when I first stuck the hose in there, the water instantly turned orange, an very thick!! Turned my driveway orange as well. The stuff that came out of the bucket, I for one didn't want it in my tank!!

I dont know how heavily planted your tank is at the moment, or the fish load. You could however pull your plants, stir the substrate up good (vigorously) up an keep doin 80% WC's for a few hours. As long as the water temp remains fairly constant, your fish should be ok. The PH will be stable outta the tap. When you are confident the SMS is fairly clean, just replant again.

If you dont, I think you will have this PH issue for awhile.


----------



## guaiac_boy (Nov 5, 2005)

From your photo you appear to have a VERY deep layer of SMS in your tank. I tried this once and I got into trouble when I did a deep gravel vac several months after setup. Several fish died right before my eyes. I suspect that I released a good bit of anaerobic nastiness that caused the trouble. Just a warning.

Incidentally, I never noticed a pH swing with charcoal SMS. I dindn't rinse mine either. It maybe lowers KH by a very modest amount, but certainly never anything worth bothering with. I've had a Pinpoint pH probe in there the whole time. Then again, my tapwater starts out at GH 12 KH 10.

I'd recommend getting the KH up in the 3-4 range with NaHCO3, which will get your pH up a bit if nothing else. Also, I'd slowly get the CO2 going. The pH drop caused by the CO2 can be considered "artificial". In and of itself, it won't harm the fish as long as the pH stays in a reasonable range.

I'm guessing the tank will stabilize pretty rapidly. Just a guess. The SMS could be contaminated though - it isn't exactly marketed as an aquarium substrate. You won't get anywhere taking the issue to Lesco. You'll have to prove it doesn't perform its stated purpose as a soil conditioner.


----------



## Rod Hay (Feb 11, 2006)

I wouldn't worry about pulling the Soilmaster out of the tank. I think that with just a few extra water changes and by buffering your Kh with Baking Soda this will settle down in about a month. I have witnessed and read that the Soilmaster is initially very porous and will absorb stuff ... nutrients, mulm, Kh? After it has been in the tank a little this quality slows and stops as the pores become gunked up. When I first put Soilmaster in my tank it was extremely light weight and just lightly passing my hand thru the water column caused it to churn up; plants were a little harder to keep down. This quality did change though and I've seen it settle down. 

I don't believe that the problem is with the Soilmaster being contaminated in any way. I don't think the Soilmaster is leaching or disolving anything into the water which is lowering your Kh and Ph.

Soilmaster is also very similar in make up to Shultz Aquatic Plant Soil which is packaged specifically to use submersed in ponds. It is known to be safe; on my package of Shultz it states: used for over 30 years by professionals. "PROFILE has even met the strictest requirements of NASA and is used on the Space Shuttle as a hydroponic medium for plant growth experiments." It says it is natural Fuller's Earth that has been kiln fired to create ceramic granules. 

*****The directions for use do state:*
1) To pre-soak Shultz Aquatic Plant Soil, place into clean, uncontaminated water tight container or bucket. Pour water into bucket until soil is submerged and thouroughly saturated.

2)..N/A...its about pond pots

3) Place 2-3 inches of pre-soaked Aquatic Plant Soil into the bottom of pot.****

I think these directions give evidence that it is best to wet and soak first before using it to plant. I know when I first wet the Shults A.P.S. I can hear a definate fizz and sizzle as it adsorbs water and becomes wet.


----------



## thadius65 (Sep 15, 2006)

The SMS is very deep under my driftwood as I wanted a shelf effect. Most of that area is covered by a large piece of slate that is drilled into the driftwood (this was in prior tank as well). So, if one was to put finger or tool into substrate in the shelf area, you would only get about 1-2" below surface. The rest of the tank is in the 4" realm.

So, for the Baking soda, how much should I use and how often is it required. I do want to get the CO2 back and my ferts going. Algae is going to eat me up real soon. 

Thanks,
Ted


----------



## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

guaiac_boy said:


> From your photo you appear to have a VERY deep layer of SMS in your tank. I tried this once and I got into trouble when I did a deep gravel vac several months after setup. Several fish died right before my eyes. I suspect that I released a good bit of anaerobic nastiness that caused the trouble. Just a warning.
> 
> Incidentally, I never noticed a pH swing with charcoal SMS. I dindn't rinse mine either.


Think this might have had something to do with it?


----------



## junco (Aug 27, 2006)

ianiwane said:


> What kind of fish do you have? Unless you have some fish that require really hard water I would not raise the kH any more.


Actually I only have 3 ottos, 1 SAE, and 2 amano shrimp. The shrimp are what I am most worried about w/ low pH. I suppose any fish is going to have problems though when you start getting to lilke 6.0. Anyway, I added a teaspoon of baking soda with my water change this week. We'll see how that works out.

thaddius, Rex Rigg has info on how much baking soda to use:

Rex's Guide to Water Chemistry

I've also read it's better to not rinse the SMS. I DID rinse mine though... I read that advice online after the fact.


----------



## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

junco said:


> SMS lowered my pH also. Our tap is typically around 8 and my tank is at 6.5 w/ CO2 going. I need to up the Co2 but Ihavae some pH sensitive fish so I think I'll be adding baking soda to allow me to do this. Weekly 50% water changes for over a month now and the pH hasn't changed. I beleive the SMS might also lower the KH as out of the tap KH is around 11 and in my tank now its about 7.
> 
> Anyone know how much baking soda to add? Is there a guide somewhere?


go to www.rexgrigg.com for the baking soda dosage...but i think the bigger issue is...is there some tainted Soilmaster out there? it isn't supposed to do this. I would think you need to contact Lesco!


----------



## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

thadius65 said:


> The SMS is very deep under my driftwood as I wanted a shelf effect. Most of that area is covered by a large piece of slate that is drilled into the driftwood (this was in prior tank as well). So, if one was to put finger or tool into substrate in the shelf area, you would only get about 1-2" below surface. The rest of the tank is in the 4" realm.
> 
> So, for the Baking soda, how much should I use and how often is it required. I do want to get the CO2 back and my ferts going. Algae is going to eat me up real soon.
> 
> ...


Contact Lesco, Ted. See if they have a bad batch out there. They owe you an explanation and a replacement. SMS should not do this and 4" isn't too much. you have a bad batch.


----------



## thadius65 (Sep 15, 2006)

I will try to get in touch with Lesco, but I don't there is much they can or will do. I feel as others do, that this will correct after time. I think I am going to attempt this for now:

I have read and some of you participated in a discussion on low PH and KH and its non-effect on the fish/environment. I continue to closely monitor all levels and go back to weekly water changes, daily fert schedule (EI) and CO2 Injection. I will initially use the PH controller until it reaches its bottom range, then I will go to a timed (hour prior to lights and off with lights) CO2 injection, closely monitoring fish. My PH will most likely hit 5.0 during this process until I have turned enough water through the potentially acidic dust of the SMS.

If this does not work (PH drops to low, or fish show bad signs), I will revert to Baking Soda to get PH and KH up.

Any issues with the above from experience??

Thanks,

Ted


----------



## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

I would skip the pH controller for now and set your CO2 at 2-3pbs on during the day when lights are on and off at night when the lights turn off. The low pH should not have a negative effect in your fish. As I stated before, fish live in pH of 4 sometimes. I know personally that some on here have happy healthy fish at 4.3pH as we speak. I would be more interested in having water movement for O2 and run your CO2 say at 2 bps for a day or two the go up to 3 bps...while lights are on. This will provide the Carbon you need before you get an algae outbreak. Keep dosing ferts and doing water changes. Your pH will creep back up over time then you can decide on your pH controller. Keep an eye on fish that they are not gasping at the top <again this will be due to too much CO2 not due to the pH> I would not worry about pH. Start up that CO2 now.
My fish are regulary at PH of 5 with no ill effects. Scale-less fish may have a problem, like invertebrates and certain snails, but that is about it.


----------



## guaiac_boy (Nov 5, 2005)

Lesco does not manufacture, advertise, or sell this stuff as an aquarium product. If a certain batch doesn't work in a fish tank they're not going to care.


----------



## junco (Aug 27, 2006)

I think I have something else going on here besides the SMS. I took a KH reading yesterday from the tank and it was at 15 ppm w/ pH of 6.5. According to the CO2 chart, this is what... 150 ppm of CO2?? I doubt it. 

I either have a bad test kit (tetra), my CO2 meter needs to be recalibrated, or something else is buffering the CO2. I'll start to eliminate variables tonight...

Perhaps I should get one of those glass CO2 meter deals on ebay.


----------



## thadius65 (Sep 15, 2006)

I hate to mention, but I may have started to round the corner... 

After water change on Sunday, I added Sun EI ferts, 30ml of Excel and dechlorinator. Previously my PH would go up to around 5.8 and then start its plummet to 5.2 or 5.3PH. I turned on CO2 at 3bps and set PH controller to 5.5PH. Ran until lights turned off, with no drop in PH? Came down in the early AM and still 5.7.... CO2/Lights on late morning through coming home at 6:00PM.... PH still at 5.7?? 

I will add that in addition to the 50% water change, I used a bowl to get some of the scum off the top of the water. Previous water changes did not impact this much as it was still present upon fill-up. This may have been the reason for the slow go in PH coming back up?

Will continue to monitor. Will do added step of scum removal on Sunday water change should it be present again.

GDA has taken control, always a pleasure to view.

Thanks,

Ted


----------



## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

A couple of people have mentioned add baking sode, raise the kh, this is all fine an good. The fact of the matter is you got SMS from a fert store to redo baseball fields. It has alot of crap in it. 

Do like I explained earlier. It will take you maybe 3 hours. Then adjust your KH/GH to the desired levels.

If you called Lesco an told em you sold me a bad batch of SMS for my aquarium, they will laugh in your face. Its not intended for aquariums. Works great on baseball fields though...Works really good in fish tanks if ya rinse all the excess crap out of it...


----------



## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

yeah I didn't think about that. I had a bad batch of Eco Complete, <horror> and seachem did the right thing by me. But it is true that Lesco makes this for baseball fields, so they will not care. Some of the dangers of using "off label."
Thanks for pointing that out.


----------



## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

Ted how ges it now?


----------



## JenThePlantGeek (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm glad you guys started this thread. I set up a tank for a coworker using Soilmaster, and I noticed a drastic drop in pH/kH too. I blamed it on the snails and the lack of water changes for 1.5 months or so, but... I think _just maybe_ the Soilmaster also contributed.


----------



## thadius65 (Sep 15, 2006)

Here is an update:

Ph ranges from 5.1 to 5.5 with CO2 at 3-4bps. Fish seem fine. Dosing ferts again and plants seem to rebounding. PH did hold the 5.7 for several days until I did a mid-week (get the GDA off prior to Thanksgiving company coming over) water change / cleaning.. 5.5PH in the morning during lights off, then slowly moving to 5.1 by end of day. Lights are on from 1PM - 10PM.

I guess I will just live with it as long as all are well.

I did keep my cup sample of tap water and SMS. It continued to read around 5PH. Put in some baking soda 1.5 weeks ago and it has been reading in the 7's since. Baking soda must have a decent lifecycle in the water??

Ted


----------



## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

it does, Ted, but there is really no ned to play with the chemistry.
Keep doing what you are doing. Everything will rebound. I think fish are fine with it above 4.3, but that is my experience. The pH will creep on its own over time. waterchanges, etc.


----------



## thadius65 (Sep 15, 2006)

That is the plan..... Stay the course.

On to my next challenge.... Getting HC to grow, but that is another post.

Thanks all. I hope my incident was beneficial to others as well as the expertise of those in the know!

Ted


----------



## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

JenThePlantGeek said:


> I'm glad you guys started this thread. I set up a tank for a coworker using Soilmaster, and I noticed a drastic drop in pH/kH too. I blamed it on the snails and the lack of water changes for 1.5 months or so, but... I think _just maybe_ the Soilmaster also contributed.


Hey Jen...

Did you rinse the crap out of it?

Thad sounds like ya have everything in order!!roud:


----------



## thadius65 (Sep 15, 2006)

Update:

Increased CO2 to 4bps to increase. Have had it there for two days. Fish seem fine, PH is now 5.2 in the morning (pre light/co2) and 4.8-4.9 at lights off at night (9 hour lights on).

Doing 50% weekly, but does not appear to be raising PH as suspected. I am going to let this go for several weeks and if no improvement, start with the baking soda.

Ted


----------



## JenThePlantGeek (Mar 27, 2006)

> Did you rinse the crap out of it?


Nope, sure didn't! I got it wet though, so it wouldn't throw up dust, but it is tough to rinse substrate in an office (with tiney sinks). 

The good news is.... MY KILLIES ARE BREEDING IN THERE!!! I guess the low pH/kH is good for something!  I have seen 1 BIG baby, and 3 medium ones. The female is fat as ever and looking happy.


----------



## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

thadius65 said:


> Update:
> 
> Increased CO2 to 4bps to increase. Have had it there for two days. Fish seem fine, PH is now 5.2 in the morning (pre light/co2) and 4.8-4.9 at lights off at night (9 hour lights on).
> 
> ...


It will change...and even if it doesn't do you see ill effects of anything? Why muddy up the waters and add things to imbalance it again. If it aint broke, don't fix it. If you see ill effectes, that is another story....
It took about 3 months for mine to resolve.


----------



## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

I wonder if Lesco puts some peat in this soil conditioning product. Everyone knows plants do well with a little peat in organic compost. And ADA adds it to their Aqua Soil... Now I'm wondering if Aquariumplant.com's new black substrate, which some folks think is probably Soilmaster Select, will also drop the pH too?

PS. Sorry about the Duckweed.:icon_redf


----------



## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

Betowess said:


> I wonder if Lesco puts some peat in this soil conditioning product. Everyone knows plants do well with a little peat in organic compost. And ADA adds it to their Aqua Soil... Now I'm wondering if Aquariumplant.com's new black substrate, which some folks think is probably Soilmaster Select, will also drop the pH too?
> 
> PS. Sorry about the Duckweed.:icon_redf


Thats a good question Bob...Now that ya mention it, I will give the boys at Lesco a call tomarrow an see just whats in it.

I mentioned before, I made mine pretty much inert. Whatever was in it, I rinsed out over the course of a couple of hours. I simply put all 50lbs in a large bucket, stuck a hose in the bottom full blast, an just let it go. I would go out every 20 mins or so an sift it really good. When it ran clear, i dropped it in the tank. My PH never wavered at all.


----------



## captured!byrobots (Jan 8, 2006)

I have Soilmaster Select Charcoal and it does the same thing....
Maybe we have the ph altering soilmaster???
My ph dropped way lower than any other tank I have.
I already have soft water though.

I can't read my ph anymore.
I need to get a probe tester or a test kit that reads under 6.

I was about to add some dolomite to the canister the other day, 
to give a little buffering to the tank,
and when I put the valve taps back on my canister, it was leaking,
so I don't know it will work well for this tank.
(I was so pissed.....)
I'll report how well it works once the new valve taps come in.

I can't keep KH in this tank for more than a day and a 1/2.


----------



## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

bastalker said:


> Thats a good question Bob...Now that ya mention it, I will give the boys at Lesco a call tomarrow an see just whats in it.
> 
> I mentioned before, I made mine pretty much inert. Whatever was in it, I rinsed out over the course of a couple of hours. I simply put all 50lbs in a large bucket, stuck a hose in the bottom full blast, an just let it go. I would go out every 20 mins or so an sift it really good. When it ran clear, i dropped it in the tank. My PH never wavered at all.



Mark, what's your tap's standing pH?


----------



## thadius65 (Sep 15, 2006)

PH still 4.8-5.2. Will hold off as recommended Fresh_Newby.

Good news though, I think I found the CO2 sweet spot. been slowly increasing and watching fish. At 3bps, only very minor pearling. 4bps somewhat better, but at 5.2bps CO2, the plants were pearling like crazy last night. I am going to keep it there and continue to monitor. 

Ted


----------



## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

If the fish are happy and the plants are happy, then don't stress about it. keep dosing ferts, CO2 like you are, and doing your weekly water changes.


----------



## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

Betowess said:


> I wonder if Lesco puts some peat in this soil conditioning product. Everyone knows plants do well with a little peat in organic compost. And ADA adds it to their Aqua Soil... Now I'm wondering if Aquariumplant.com's new black substrate, which some folks think is probably Soilmaster Select, will also drop the pH too?
> 
> PS. Sorry about the Duckweed.:icon_redf


hehehehe ever since you hijacked some 'water lettuce" i.e duckweed in my mini rotala, I have been plaguing people with those darned things....hahahaha sorry Bob...we can share the blame :redface:


----------



## montana (Oct 5, 2006)

I just set up a new 24G cube with soilmaster select charcoal. My water comes out of the tap at ph above 8 and is fairly soft. I did some rinsing of the soilmaster prior to adding to tank though the water newer ran clear. I checked pH an hour after filling the tank and it was around 7. The next morning, I measured again and the pH had dropped to 6.5. This was all done with pH meter. This is an all shrimp tank so I didn't want the pH to drop any further so I added 1/2 tsp of baking soda and the pH has held at around 7.5 for the last few days.


----------



## thadius65 (Sep 15, 2006)

So Betowess was patient zero with that #&*@ stuff.... Heaven knows how far it has spread and how many people touched. Luckily I got rid of mine completely when I moved tanks, but took hours of painfull cleaning.

:icon_cool


----------



## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

hehehe at least it wasn't Herpes! lol


----------



## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

fresh_newby said:


> hehehehe ever since you hijacked some 'water lettuce" i.e duckweed in my mini rotala, I have been plaguing people with those darned things....hahahaha sorry Bob...we can share the blame :redface:



Now, wait, are we talking about water lettuce (Pistia ?) or Duckweed? Water lettuce is easy, but Duckweed, oh my god! Its evil to get rid of. I might of sent both,:icon_redf


----------



## thadius65 (Sep 15, 2006)

We are talking about illegal/unwarranted distribution of the weed man.....  

Ted


----------



## Khandurian (Oct 25, 2006)

thadius65 said:


> So Betowess was patient zero with that #&*@ stuff.... Heaven knows how far it has spread and how many people touched. Luckily I got rid of mine completely when I moved tanks, but took hours of painfull cleaning.
> 
> :icon_cool


Well, I have setup a little 10 gallon with the SMS charcoal and it tanked the ph as some of you have experienced also.

I washed mine for about 30 mins. Not near as long as 2 hours like you did thadius. my question is, after you rinsed yours for 2 hours, when it's sitting the bottom, and if you reshape the landscape, does your water cloud? Do you happen to notice bubbles of air coming out of it? 

Since my tank is like 3 days old and has zero plants and zero fish, frankly it has nothing! I will go ahead and take it out and wash it longer. I just wish I had read this before I setup the tank.


----------



## thadius65 (Sep 15, 2006)

That was Bastalker that rinsed for hours, not me. I was ill informed and simply sat the bags in the tank (2 - 50lb), slit them open and added water. Live and learn.


----------



## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

Betowess said:


> Mark, what's your tap's standing pH?



7.0 out of the tap Bob... 7.4 when at rest....

I have only been able to get it down to 6.2 before the fish start gasping. Thats really crankin the co2!

There is obviously something in the SM that is effecting the ph due to the fact that several members are experiencing the same symtoms.


----------



## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

thadius65 said:


> That was Bastalker that rinsed for hours, not me. I was ill informed and simply sat the bags in the tank (2 - 50lb), slit them open and added water. Live and learn.


I knew goin in to the endeavor that Lesco obviously doesn't sell this for aquarium use. I got it cause it was cheap, light, the right size, an looked good in the tank.

I believe with water changes, an vigorous substrate vacumming, eventually you will turn things around.

Keep in mind though the more c02 ya pump into yer tank, the lower the ph will go...


----------



## thadius65 (Sep 15, 2006)

Mine started to stabalize, but stopped and stayed around 4.5 - 4.8. I am so ashamed that I finally gave into the dark side (Fresh_Newby, I am week, sorry) and added some baking soda. I added only 3 teaspoons to my 125g. Which is about 1/3 Rex Griggs amount on his web page. Now I am at 5.4 - 5.8PH. Will check my KH soon.

What pushed me over the edge was fear. My co2 tank did a dump on Friday and if it wasn't for my wonderful 14 year old, all of my fish would be dead. He called me at work and said my loaches were floating and all my angels were praying at the surface as well as my shrimp on their sides. Busted a&& home, did a 50% water change and turned on air stone. After 2 hours, all were fine..No deaths. Whew.

Bottom line is that at 4.5-4.8PH, I cannot use my PH controller as a saftey net.

Ted


----------



## Khandurian (Oct 25, 2006)

Well, I thought I would go ahead and throw this out there for some of you looking for another way to "wash" your substrate without running up your water bill.

I took a 4" pvc pipe length of about 4 feet. One end of the pipe, I used an OLD pair of stockings donated from my wife, and covered the end. Filled the pipe up with SMS. Lifted the pipe off the ground using some spare pavers I had sitting around.

Now, the wonder solution! I kept thinking there has to be a way to use the rejected water from the RO unit! BINGO! Use that water to spray down SMS when needed! So there ya have it! 4" 4 foot pipe was just enough for about 20 gallon long tank!

So now while your making your RO water, use the rejected water to clean your SMS!


----------



## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

thadius65 said:


> That was Bastalker that rinsed for hours, not me. I was ill informed and simply sat the bags in the tank (2 - 50lb), slit them open and added water. Live and learn.


That you do with Eco Complete or AS...not any of the others...
But live and learn~


----------



## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

thadius65 said:


> Mine started to stabalize, but stopped and stayed around 4.5 - 4.8. I am so ashamed that I finally gave into the dark side (Fresh_Newby, I am week, sorry) and added some baking soda. I added only 3 teaspoons to my 125g. Which is about 1/3 Rex Griggs amount on his web page. Now I am at 5.4 - 5.8PH. Will check my KH soon.
> 
> What pushed me over the edge was fear. My co2 tank did a dump on Friday and if it wasn't for my wonderful 14 year old, all of my fish would be dead. He called me at work and said my loaches were floating and all my angels were praying at the surface as well as my shrimp on their sides. Busted a&& home, did a 50% water change and turned on air stone. After 2 hours, all were fine..No deaths. Whew.
> 
> ...


I hear you...baking soda is harmless....it is when people add coral and ph booster al equilibrator and crap like that that they pose a huge problem
Did you check your solenoid?


----------



## masYPSI (Aug 10, 2006)

Thought I'd chime in. I've had my tank up for 5 months, fish and plants for about 3 mounths. My pH is now so low I can not read it. The LFS people are telling me that I should change it to a Laterite layer under some thing I like. But my plant and fish seem to be fine. So I will continue the water changes.


----------



## thadius65 (Sep 15, 2006)

Update on mine as well:

PH is still 4.8-4.9. Baking soda keeps it up somewhat, but works its way back down within about a week.


----------



## original kuhli (Nov 28, 2006)

This is a bit premature but I've acquired some Soilmaster Select, the red version and used my new SMS 122 that I've calibrated to their specification to check the pH over time. 

My water starts at a pH of 8.2 out of the tap and has a kH of 7 and a gH of 11. This is a rough rundown by memory but the pH goes as follows:

15 mins pH = 7.2
45 mins pH = 6.6
8 hrs pH = 5.8
20 hrs pH = 5.6
48 hrs pH = 5.5

I anticipate it won't drop much further at this point. Given the hardness of my water it seems to be in keeping with everything I've read on this thread. Looks like the red stuff has a pretty low pH of 5 to 5.5 depending on water chemistry.


----------



## Aqua Dave (Feb 23, 2004)

original kuhli said:


> This is a bit premature but I've acquired some Soilmaster Select, the red version and used my new SMS 122 that I've calibrated to their specification to check the pH over time.
> 
> My water starts at a pH of 8.2 out of the tap and has a kH of 7 and a gH of 11. This is a rough rundown by memory but the pH goes as follows:
> 
> ...


So is your Kh now near 0? Is the Soilmaster actually lowering your Kh or is it just lowering the Ph via some other mechanism? A Kh <=1 would scare me as it makes your tank more susceptible to Ph swings.

David


----------



## original kuhli (Nov 28, 2006)

I can check, evaporation is quickly making this experiment a bit unreliable at this point...


----------



## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

At the request of Bob (Betowess) I tested a small amount of the Aquariumplants.com substrate in a pitcher of water. Out of the tap it has a KH of 12. I also let a cup of water sit out as a control sample.

After 24 hours the KH in the control cup was still 12 but the water in the substrate pitcher was 10.

I kind of forgot about it until Bob PM'd me last night to see if there were any updates. I tested the substrate water again last night (so five days of sitting) and the KH was down to 6.

This stuff, and apparently some of the Soilmaster Select, is definitely different than all the Turface I've used. In the 120g tank that I setup with Turface (about 75# worth), there was no appreciable affect on the water parameter a week after setup. Same with the 40g tank I redid with Turface a few months ago.


----------



## Aqua Dave (Feb 23, 2004)

bharada said:


> At the request of Bob (Betowess) I tested a small amount of the Aquariumplants.com substrate in a pitcher of water. Out of the tap it has a KH of 12. I also let a cup of water sit out as a control sample.
> 
> After 24 hours the KH in the control cup was still 12 but the water in the substrate pitcher was 10.
> 
> I kind of forgot about it until Bob PM'd me last night to see if there were any updates. I tested the substrate water again last night (so five days of sitting) and the KH was down to 6.


Which leads to the question "Where'd it go?". It would seem there has to be some sort of chemical reaction going on to lower the Kh. Either that or the substrate is somehow locking up the carbonate so that it's no longer in the water. Any chemists out there have an explanation?

David


----------



## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

original kuhli said:


> This is a bit premature but I've acquired some Soilmaster Select, the red version and used my new SMS 122 that I've calibrated to their specification to check the pH over time.
> 
> My water starts at a pH of 8.2 out of the tap and has a kH of 7 and a gH of 11. This is a rough rundown by memory but the pH goes as follows:
> 
> ...


Did you happen to rinse the SS out really good before you did the ph tests?


----------



## original kuhli (Nov 28, 2006)

Intentionally no, I did no rinsing whatsoever.


----------



## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

Is there anyway you could do the same test, but after it is rinsed out real good?


----------



## original kuhli (Nov 28, 2006)

sure, no big deal, there's been so much evaporation in the first trial that I'm not sure that a kH is anywhere near meaningful. I'll run a trial with a well rinsed sample and try to keep the same measurement pace. I anticipate the result will be the same but it'll take longer to happen...


----------



## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

The reason I asked is I rinsed mine out very good, an I never had my ph drop a degree beyond what the c02 usually drops it.

It appears to me that Thadius was crankin C02 into the tank at 4-5 bbs, an had no KH readings. Unless I am reading it all wrong, that lack of buffering, will give ya major ph swings...


----------



## original kuhli (Nov 28, 2006)

I've started a trial of rinsed vs unrinsed, basically over the first 12 hours there's about a 0.2 to 0.3 difference in pH. I'll write a proper email in a new thread once I've completed a couple days of observation.


----------



## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

My original KH test was done on non-rinsed aquariumplants.com substrate. I tested it again today and the KH is down to 2.5°. So a drop from 12 to 2.5 in eight days.

I also put some well-washed substrate in a container of water on Friday and after three days the KH has gone from 12 to 7, so it appears that the substrate itself is reducing KH rather than the accumulated dust.


----------



## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Bill, Glad you posted this info about Aquariumplants.com substrate here. I was wondering how you were going get the info out. So for those of us looking for inert substrate, right now, it seems Flourite is the best bet and possibly Eco-complete. But I have my doubts about how inert Eco is from personal experience to the contrary.


----------



## fish_lover0591 (Nov 11, 2006)

hmm since i have a low ph already i might just go with flourite then i had a sweet offer from someone on here for some sm select charcoal but i might change my mind about getting it.


----------



## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

Bob,
Add Turface Pro League to the list of inert substrates. I've been using it for about a year now (in my 120) and my water had maintained its pristine rock hardness throughout. :icon_lol:


----------



## original kuhli (Nov 28, 2006)

FYI, I did do the trial, the info's at:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/substrate/41562-soilmaster-select-ph-rinsed-vs-unrinsed.html


----------



## MrBlackThumb (Aug 12, 2005)

For those of you who experienced pH drop/kH drop, how long does it take the effect to last? What is it in soilmaster that eats away kH?


----------



## thadius65 (Sep 15, 2006)

Wow, my thread will not die....

I am still battling low PH and its been two months since i introduced it to the tank. Adding about 1-2 tablespoons of baking soda every few weeks, I am able to keep it at around 5.2-5.4. Without it, it was in the 4.6-4.9 range when CO2 is on. Over night it does go up somewhat.

I do notice an improvement in my fish in the mid 5's as opposed to the mid to high 4's. 

If I had to do it over again, I would either rinse the #&$* out of it, or use gravel.


Ted


----------



## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

bharada said:


> Bob,
> Add Turface Pro League to the list of inert substrates. I've been using it for about a year now (in my 120) and my water had maintained its pristine rock hardness throughout. :icon_lol:


Thanks Bill. It might be on the top of the new substrate list for me. I like the color and the price even more! roud:


----------

