# Humus vs mts, any one tried it?



## ducky14523 (Aug 29, 2011)

If i understand correctly, while true humus is topsoil where organic matter has stabilized, purchased humus is composted organic materials that are mostly stabilized. As i understand it, mineralized top soil, is top soil that also has reached a state of mostly stabilized organics. Can you then use humus as mts or use humus to make mts more quickly or use humus as a more stable alternative to Miracle grow organic mix? or is there some reason this is a completely horrid idea?


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## Optix (May 31, 2011)

it would work just the same


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

A source that I trust has suggested just using humus instead of manually mineralizing topsoil.

I haven't tried it myself.

Seems so simple and easy that you wonder why everyone hasn't done it already if it works out the same.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

"Humus", in the form of compost, isn't a clearly defined product. You can buy sewage sludge that has been composted. You can buy chicken manure, that has been composted. Neither of those seem to me to be good in an aquarium. And, the compost I have purchased still contained lots of shredded wood and bark in it. What humus are you considering using?


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

Check out this type:

http://www.denaligold.us/denaligold.html

or this:

http://www.outdoorlivingbymrmulch.com/browse.cfm/organic-peat-humus-40-pound-bag/4,128.html

I haven't tried using this myself yet though is the required disclaimer.


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## ukamikazu (Jun 4, 2010)

Hoppy has an excellent point. Yes, MTS is humus essentially (or peat humus as it is sometimes called) but you must be sure of your sources. If you see something promising, contact the distributor and/or the manufacture and ask them what's in it before you subject your tank and your wallet to who knows what. 

Madness pointed out two excellent brands that are trustworthy. I prefer the one at http://www.outdoorlivingbymrmulch.com/browse.cfm/organic-peat-humus-40-pound-bag/4,128.html simply because I have contacted them and they assured me it is very reduced and very finely sifted. When the gentleman described it as a little bit chunkier than graphite powder I knew I found the right stuff. The price point and shipping are also very nice too.


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## ducky14523 (Aug 29, 2011)

ahhh, so we know not everybody does it, like everything else no two sources are exactly the same. I was asking mostly to see if it there was a reason not to use it, not because i going to use it (thou i might). Right now i'm just reading all these posts on substrates and as i formulate questions i'm asking them to better understand. I'm also trying to be really good about asking different and specific questions so i'm not wasting anybodies time and i'm getting answers that i can research. Thank ya'll for your time and answers what i'm trying to find is a more plant friendly substrate to swap with the current and fish returned to their tanks same day or at least within a week. the tanks are all well established with inert stuff now. i have some miracle grow organic mix in a couple of gallon pickle jars so i can get a feel for the stuff and it's effects on the water. the scientist in me is having a field day!


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## ukamikazu (Jun 4, 2010)

Truly, have fun with it and enjoy! That's why I do it.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

How does this stuff sound as a MTS substitute: http://www.hydrofarm.com/pb_detail.php?itemid=11135 I can get this locally, no shipping charges. From the description it appears to not contain more than tiny amounts of manure in it. The price doesn't seem bad, and single bag would give me over an inch of stuff in my 65 gallon tank.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Hoppy - From your link, "It is derived from thousands of years of naturally ecomposed forest litter that contains a wide spectrum of organic compounds."

Who dreams this stuff up? Anyone that ever had a compost pile will tell you compost ain't lasting a 1000yrs :hihi::hihi::hihi: And what exactly is a "wide spectrum of organic compounds". I think you can credit any compost pile with that.

Yes, I'd try it as substrate. Probably rather conservative compared to my YDDP substrate :big grin:I think a point that gets lost in these substrate thread is the fact that the substrate is part of the Aquarium system. All the parts need to function together, the balance it the point, not the parts.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

DogFish said:


> Hoppy - From your link, "It is derived from thousands of years of naturally ecomposed forest litter that contains a wide spectrum of organic compounds."
> 
> Who dreams this stuff up? Anyone that ever had a compost pile will tell you compost ain't lasting a 1000yrs :hihi::hihi::hihi: And what exactly is a "wide spectrum of organic compounds". I think you can credit any compost pile with that.
> 
> Yes, I'd try it as substrate. Probably rather conservative compared to my YDDP substrate :big grin:I think a point that gets lost in these substrate thread is the fact that the substrate is part of the Aquarium system. All the parts need to function together, the balance it the point, not the parts.


You mean you don't believe that this humus is from leaves that fell back around 1000 BC? If it is, they must be Magnolia leaves:biggrin:

Actually, I can't even see any organic compound lasting that long before being naturally mineralized. But, wouldn't you give anything to have a substrate that started its life back in 1000BC? At least it would be aged.


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## ukamikazu (Jun 4, 2010)

Hoppy said:


> You mean you don't believe that this humus is from leaves that fell back around 1000 BC? If it is, they must be Magnolia leaves:biggrin:
> 
> Actually, I can't even see any organic compound lasting that long before being naturally mineralized. But, wouldn't you give anything to have a substrate that started its life back in 1000BC? At least it would be aged.


Actually, that is the point of humus. It's as decomposed as anything can get on this planet. It is literally a collection of reduced carbon, a large complex of many inorganic acids, some mineral salts and a lot of waxy materials like lignin. And it really is stable for tens of thousands of years at a time. In fact, a major source of humus for farms is from the petroleum industry. It's commonly found with the oil so they separate it out and sell it to farmers and a whole host of retailers, distributors, middle men and land management operations. Stuff is ridiculously cheap. 

But yes, the entire process of making MTS is pretty much humus as the end product. That's mineralization in a nutshell. Mature compost. Black gold, if you're a gardener. Good stuff.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

After I posted that I remembered what peat is. It is more than 1000's of years old too. And, leonardite is even older, also a source of humic acids.

I suspect this stuff would be best used mixed with other soil or sand, so it isn't so concentrated, but, I'm not sure.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Oh, I do think the 1000y.o. dirt does have valve for use in a planted tank. I just found the marketing hype funny.

You are correct peat is mined from ancient deposits. Peat mining is a major controversy in the organic gardening world due to ecological loss and the debatable value of adding peat to improve water retention of the soil.


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## aquatic serenity (May 24, 2011)

FWIW: anyone trying to order that outdoorliving mr mulch organic peat humus:They wont ship it..got an e-mail saying local delivery only...and they refunded my order..

So if anyone has alternative sources of peat humus that are free of manure or urea please post them here ...


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

Do you have any idea of the actual mineral content of peat humus or any kind of humus and in what concentration? There are actually several types of peat, and sphagnum peat dried and grinded has a pretty low ratio of minerals. It is primarily used in agriculture for its acidity and CEC, not as a nutrient reservoir. What is the goal of using humus in the aquarium? I know sphagnum peat breaks down much slower than other types of peat.

People use humic acids in the aquarium, to create "black water" conditions for fish, and there are all sorts of black water additives that contain humic acids, but at the same time there has always been some controversy and debate as to if these humic acids and tannins have any nutritional value or application for plant growth. Is this different in some way?

Humus is used in agriculture as a soil additive strictly in the role of increasing CEC, and acting as a chealtor to make oxidized minerals more readily accessible to plant uptake, not in the role of providing any nutrients itself. How this role would be transfered from terrestrial gardening to aquatic gardening, I don't know. HNere is a quote from wikipedia on humus:



> Benefits of soil organic matter and humus
> 
> The process that converts raw organic matter into humus feeds the soil population of microorganisms and other creatures, thus maintains high and healthy levels of soil life.[27][28]
> The rate at which raw organic matter is converted into humus promotes (when fast) or limits (when slow) the coexistence of plants, animals, and microbes in soil.
> ...


This is what particularly caught my attention



> There has been a long debate about the ability of plants to uptake humic substances from their root systems and to metabolize them. There is now a consensus about how humus plays a hormonal role rather than simply a nutritional role in plant physiology.[


So if you want to add humus to the substrate to achieve better CEC and help make oxidized minerals already in the substrate more readily accesible, rather than using humus as a source of nutrients, the big question is if humus can do this as effectively submersed in water as it does in terrestrial soil. Does the water change the process?

Put it another way, humus does not contain nutrients, it simply attracts nutrients from soil like a magnet. If you put humus in sand it would be completely void of nutrients for all practical purposes. If you put it underwater in a substrate, it will either act the same way and attract and hold nutrients from the substrate, or being submersed in water will interfere with this process, but either way I don't see how you can compare it to MTS.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Robert H said:


> Humus is a colloidal substance, and increases the soil's cation exchange capacity, hence its ability to store nutrients by chelation. While these nutrient cations are accessible to plants, they are held in the soil safe from being leached by rain or irrigation.[30]
> Humus can hold the equivalent of 80–90% of its weight in moisture, and therefore increases the soil's capacity to withstand drought conditions.[31][32]
> The biochemical structure of humus enables it to moderate – or buffer – excessive acid or alkaline soil conditions.[33]
> During the humification process, microbes secrete sticky gum-like mucilages; these contribute to the crumb structure (tilth) of the soil by holding particles together, and allowing greater aeration of the soil.[34] Toxic substances such as heavy metals, as well as excess nutrients, can be chelated (that is, bound to the complex organic molecules of humus) and so prevented from entering the wider ecosystem.[35]
> The dark color of humus (usually black or dark brown) helps to warm up cold soils in the spring.


>>>Having set up a tank that is blatantly breaking the "rules" of substrate use. I appreciate this Cite. I'm seeing this process in my Toxic Ten tank. To me it seems these discussions focus too much on the part(substrate) and forget that there is an interaction of the complete eco-system going on inside these glass boxes.




Robert H said:


> There has been a long debate about the ability of plants to uptake humic substances from their root systems and to metabolize them. There is now a consensus about how humus plays a hormonal role rather than simply a nutritional role in plant physiology.


>>>Yes, I found this VERY interesting as well. Thank you for posting this info.

I feel it's these hormonal (and maybe trace element) levels that are the reason some Aquarium plants do not do well in some tanks vs. nature. I think this may be why a plant like C. Bullosa is such a challenge


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