# Have paintball CO2 systems gotten a bad rap?



## NatCh (Feb 23, 2011)

I'm beginning to think that some of the bad reputation that paintball systems have is at least somewhat undeserved.

I recently added CO2 injection to my 40g tall tank (30"x12"x24), due to space constraints I went with a paintball tank based system.

Since the space was far more limited than budget on this project, I went ahead and sprang for a decent diffuser (Atomic one), needle valve (Fabco NV-55-18), solenoid, etc., for the project. I figured that if I ever get more space to work with, I'll only have to replace the tank and regulator (I used a special initial regulator that allows me to keep the bottle horizontal -- space limitations again), and in the long run that would save me money by having to replace less equipment. I also went for the biggest paintball tank I could scare up, a 1.5# one, since it was still small enough to fit where I could put it. The set up allows me to stay "in the green" at 2 bps, 10 hours/day.

I expected to have to fill it pretty frequently, and recognized that I was accepting a higher cost of ownership, but given my space constraints, my only other option was to forgo CO2 entirely, so .... :shrug:


Cutting to the chase, I'm now on _Day 50_ of my first post-set-up tank (I blew a lot of gas in the set up and testing phase, so the first fill only lasted a couple of weeks). I expect it to go any time now, and I've half decided to go ahead and fill it this weekend even if it's still running, because I'll be out of town part of next week.

At 50 days per fill, I'm looking at just over 7 fillings a year, at $4 bucks a pop that's only a bit over $28/year, and the place I get my refills does a buy 4 get one free thing, so it's closer to $25 a year. Yes, that's more than I'd pay if I had a 10# tank and filled it once a year for $15 or so, but it's not _that_ burdensome a refill cost.

This has me wondering if part of the reason that paintball tanks have the reputation of not lasting very long may be because the support equipment is cheaper, and consequently less efficient. For example, if I hadn't bothered with a solenoid, and just let it run 24/7 I'd be looking at 24 hours/day instead of 10, which would put me closer to 20 days to empty the tank to the level I'm at now (whatever that actually is). If I were using a less efficient, less expensive diffuser, I'd prowly have to run more bps to get the CO2 concentrations where my drop checker wants them, resulting in still faster gas consumption. If I had a less precise needle valve (for instance, like the first one I bought ) I might have fluctuating gas flow, which could affect the consumption in either direction. Obviously, if I had a bigger aquarium I'd need to use gas faster, but then I'd have a bigger stand to hide the CO2 tank in, and would not have gone this route in the first place.


What do y'all think, could it be that part of the reputation for short-livedness of paintball systems might be a result of the use of cheaper, less efficient, less effective ancillary CO2 equipment?

I'm _not_ suggesting that paintball is as cost-effective as a larger tank, or anything, I'm just wondering if it might not be as bad as seems to be the generally accepted belief.


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

I would still use a regulator. Having 800 psi running through the needlevalve and solenoid maybe problematic.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/h_bosman/4379697140/in/set-72157622829944660/


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## NatCh (Feb 23, 2011)

Thank you, hbosman, I am using a regulator. Two of them, in fact. 

I realize looking back that I didn't actually explain that I was using one at all, though (I discussed it a good deal in the linked thread, and was mentally swapping it into this one). In any case, here's a picture.

The marbled-y blue/black tube is a "stabilizer", which -- nearly as I can interpolate -- is a fixed output regulator (set to 100 PSI) that can handle liquid CO2 getting into it (which allows me to mount the tank horizontally), and the part with the gauge is, obviously, the low pressure regulator, which brings my 100 PSI down to the 40 PSI I want to run things at.


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## btimmer92 (Mar 12, 2011)

well there you go, a DS paintball red.


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## maknwar (Aug 10, 2008)

I dont think paintball systems are bad at all. I just wouldnt use them on any of my tanks that are larger than 10g. I dont like the refilling of a paintball system.


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

The downsides to the paintball setup are:

1) Generally is not run with a regulator, so it's more likely that other components will fail due to high psi.
2) Generally is not run with a solenoid, so it runs out 3x as fast and can gas out fish at night if it's set very high.
3) Generally is not run with an actual needle or metering valve, so it's difficult to "tweak" the bubble count.
4) Cost of refills
5) Frequency of refills

You've dealt with the first 3 issues by upgrading your system.
You've minimized the last 2 issues the same way.

The only issue where traditional rigs really have you beat is the frequency of refills, which is more a PITA than a money pit. Going for refills twice a year is better than 7 times a year, but, as you say, it's not all that bad.

So, I'd say that you have a pretty good thing going because of the upgrades you've made to a basic paintball rig. And since space is an issue, it works for you. However, unless folks are willing to make the upgrades that are necessary for a functional (and even efficient) paintball rig, I'll still claim that a traditional rig is almost always a better bet.


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## NatCh (Feb 23, 2011)

kevmo911 said:


> However, unless folks are willing to make the upgrades that are necessary for a functional (and even efficient) paintball rig, I'll still claim that a traditional rig is almost always a better bet.


I wouldn't disagree with that, except on the point that if folks aren't willing to spend the money on a decent paintball set up, they prowly wouldn't be willing to spend it on a decent _traditional_ set up either. :shrug:

In any case, I very much agree that the traditional is superior to a paintball, assuming equivalent or better support parts. My point was just that it seems to me that given the willingness to do it right, most of the "downsides" of a paintball system are partially or wholly addressable, which is of course just what you've just said. :smile:


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## NatCh (Feb 23, 2011)

Update: 50 days it is, I just ran out of gas. :smile:


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

YOUR paintball setup is not a traditional paintball setup. 

There are now 3 types:

a standard regulator adapted to a paintball tank
a paintball asa and needle valve
and the one you show
(actually a fourth, using the small leland regs is out there too. They're spendy buggers though)


I will not use and will not recommend the use of a paintball asa and needle valve without a regulator. It is downright dangerous and someone is going to get hurt eventually. The others, including yours, are perfectly reasonable, if you understand the limitations.


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## btimmer92 (Mar 12, 2011)

ditto. I have never heard of a reg like yours, I didn't know they made preset mid-pressure paintball tank regulators. That changes my perspective on paintball co2. How much did all that cost? 

BTW you have the input/output reversed on the NV. Does that matter? I always thought it did...


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## NatCh (Feb 23, 2011)

Evidently these "stabilizers" are only made by the one set of folks. Leastwise, Google and I can only find them on the one site. The pressure on them is actually adjustable, but it's by way of an Allen bolt, and I guess you'd have to have a gauge somewhere to see what you were setting it to. Since it was bought as a package, they'd already pre-set it appropriately.

The stabilizer and low-pressure regulator together were $146. It looks like I could have had the stabilizer alone for ~$80, and the low pressure regulator from ebay for around $20 more, but I'm new to this and wanted to reduce my probability of getting incompatible parts, so I went for the package. 

If you want more details than that, the thread linked in the first post has some, including source links and such.

The needle valve doesn't have any indication on it as to which is in and out, so I connected it in the way that best fit the space (did I mention that my space is limited? ). So far I've had no trouble at all setting it where I wanted it, and I prowly won't swap it unless it starts giving me trouble or someone persuades me that hooking it up this way is a Bad Thing. :shrug:


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## tbarabash (May 18, 2011)

I bought the GLA paintball dual guage regulator for 176$.. came with solenoid, bubble counter, good quality needle valve and I love it. Currently running 24/7 on my fluval edge at 1bps and maintain a nice green throughout the photoperiod and just starting to yellow o/n until lights come on again. With my calculations each paintball tank will, once I get my lazy butt out to walmart to get a timer should last me at least 6 months.. at 5$ a fill, that's not too bad maintenance or yearly fees at all. Could have gotten a normal tank reg and adaptor, but I'm never going to need a bigger tank on the edge and don't plan on stopping my edge anytime soon as its loved by EVERYONE that sees it.

Once I get a larger tank I'll just buy a good 10# setup and call it a day and live happily ever after


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Beauty/the perfect co2 system is in the eye of the beholder.

I took my time, did research, asked a bunch or questions and found some great deals. 

In my whole system (victor dual stage regulator, swagelok needle valve, clippard solenoid, co2 tank) I have less than $100. Certainly not the norm but the components (save for the clippard solenoid but it is a pre-chinese made clippard so its pretty decent) will outlast me most likely and allow me very precise and reliable use of my system. 

I really like how you went outside the box to get what you needed. There are certain unnamed SS regulator brands (one that starts with the letter M) that are probably not as well built or reliable as yours but it is a pretty safe bet to say that just about every full size co2 system is better in about every aspect then even the most prestigious paint ball rig.


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## btimmer92 (Mar 12, 2011)

bsmith said:


> it is a pretty safe bet to say that just about every full size co2 system is better in about every aspect then even the most prestigious paint ball rig.


I disagree. I think Natch's painbtall system would be better than a milwaukee in every way.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

That's exactly what I said. His is better but every other one out there is not.


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## btimmer92 (Mar 12, 2011)

Well, it's all about the regulator and needle valve. Most paintball systems have no regulator, and that is about the most dangerous thing you do, and they are pretty crappy to use anyway. Slap a real regulator or a stabilizer and LP reg on it, and a good needle valve, and it's just as good. Of course unless you have a small aquarium, you might as well just go regular co2 tank system.


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## NatCh (Feb 23, 2011)

bsmith said:


> ... but it is a pretty safe bet to say that just about every full size co2 system is better in about every aspect then even the most prestigious paint ball rig.


I'm afraid I can't agree with that. It would require a single component, the CO2 tank, to make or break the _entire_ system.

To put it another way, by that logic, taking a top of the line traditional system that was performing well and replacing the tank with a paintball tank would cause the whole system to suddenly begin performing badly.


It seems reasonable to me to expect comparable systems to perform comparably _regardless_ of the size or type CO2 tank connected to them -- with the obvious exception of the frequency of refills, of course.

In other words, the overall performance of a system would seem to be far more dependent upon the components _other_ than the supply tank rather than _only_ upon the supply tank, and I think my own experience supports that. :shrug:



In any case, what I was getting at originally (and I think your comment is a case in point) is that there seems to be a general perception that _any_ CO2 system that runs from a paintball tank must, necessarily and without exception, stink like a landfill on a midsummer day.

I think my own experience suggests that the performance of any CO2 system is directly related to the willingness to spend the money on decent support equipment (regulator, needle valve, etc.). I don't think that the size or type of the supply tank alone makes any significant difference _other_ than the frequency of refills.


In other words, this is yet another chapter in the book: *CO2 In The Planted Aquarium: Cheap Will Really Cost You*.


All that being said, I still would encourage folks to go with a traditional system if they have the space for it. I certainly wouldn't suggest choosing a paintball system as a way to save money!


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

When I think of a paintball co2 system I think of the systems where it is an all in one package that has the preset regulator output. Now I have never researched paintball systems and have never seen anything different then that.


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## sayurasem (Jun 17, 2011)

I like/dislike this system.

kinda regret spend 60 bucks on it. I like using sugar + yeast better.

-why? well because I dont have life insurance, cant afford it. I notice things can blow up with high pressurized paintball (tank, asa valve, needle valve, glass diffuser). Those 4 things can blow easily with the 800 psi, just a living bomb.

But the thing about yeast + sugar is just messy, and too frequent refills. 2 cups per 1 1/2 weeks is alot of sugar and messy, sticky, ants magnet.

so my bottom point is diy paintball system is not very good for their safety hazards and money you put into.


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## btimmer92 (Mar 12, 2011)

natch that is what I was saying. A paintball system just means it uses a paintball tank instead of a normal tank. But the only thing that matters is the regulator and needle valve used. So by the actual definition it makes no difference if you have a paintball tank or a normal tank, unless you have a really big aquarium or a really small aquarium, in which case one of the two would be a lot better.

By peoples' conception of "paintball system" which means a tank, on off valve, and crummy $5 needle valve, then YES, that paintball system sucks.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

btimmer92 said:


> natch that is what I was saying. A paintball system just means it uses a paintball tank instead of a normal tank. But the only thing that matters is the regulator and needle valve used. So by the actual definition it makes no difference if you have a paintball tank or a normal tank, unless you have a really big aquarium or a really small aquarium, in which case one of the two would be a lot better.
> 
> By peoples' conception of "paintball system" which means a tank, on off valve, and crummy $5 needle valve, then YES, that paintball system sucks.


I think that's 99.9% of people's perception/conception of a paintball system. I think if you guys are talking about just using a paintball cylinder then you are arguing the same point I am.


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## xxxSHyXAxxx (Mar 16, 2011)

tbarabash said:


> I bought the GLA paintball dual guage regulator for 176$.. came with solenoid, bubble counter, good quality needle valve and I love it. Currently running 24/7 on my fluval edge at 1bps and maintain a nice green throughout the photoperiod and just starting to yellow o/n until lights come on again. With my calculations each paintball tank will, once I get my lazy butt out to walmart to get a timer should last me at least 6 months.. at 5$ a fill, that's not too bad maintenance or yearly fees at all. Could have gotten a normal tank reg and adaptor, but I'm never going to need a bigger tank on the edge and don't plan on stopping my edge anytime soon as its loved by EVERYONE that sees it.
> 
> Once I get a larger tank I'll just buy a good 10# setup and call it a day and live happily ever after


 
i'm not trying to say you're wrong for what you purchased but IMO you should have gotten the normal tank reg and adaptor since you're thinking about getting another tank. Once you get a bigger tank you could have just gotten a splitter and ran both tanks off of the #10. Now you're going to have to buy a completely new set up.



with that being said. that is one downfall to a paintball set up. you can really use it on more than one tank, if having more than one tank is your thing. the main reason i decided to go with a tank vice paintball is because i wanted to expand in the future and not have to buy more things. AAAAND if i only have to keep my eye on and fill one tank i'm happier then having to watch two or three. less is best. to add to that, say you have a high light tank and a low light tank. you'll have to fill the co2 at two different times because you're not going to use as much in the low light tank. you could just fill them both but correct me if i'm wrong its a flat rate to fill the tanks. now you're just flushing money down the pooper


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

xxxSHyXAxxx said:


> i'm not trying to say you're wrong for what you purchased but IMO you should have gotten the normal tank reg and adaptor since you're thinking about getting another tank. Once you get a bigger tank you could have just gotten a splitter and ran both tanks off of the #10. Now you're going to have to buy a completely new set up.
> 
> 
> 
> with that being said. that is one downfall to a paintball set up. you can really use it on more than one tank, if having more than one tank is your thing. the main reason i decided to go with a tank vice paintball is because i wanted to expand in the future and not have to buy more things. AAAAND if i only have to keep my eye on and fill one tank i'm happier then having to watch two or three. less is best. to add to that, say you have a high light tank and a low light tank. you'll have to fill the co2 at two different times because you're not going to use as much in the low light tank. you could just fill them both but correct me if i'm wrong its a flat rate to fill the tanks. now you're just flushing money down the pooper


Why do people change their font type and size? I don't get it. It's annoying.

As for having to buy a whole new setup.... nope. All this person would need to buy is a new cga 320 nipple/nut.


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## xxxSHyXAxxx (Mar 16, 2011)

i can't spell worth a crap so i copy and paste what i type into a word doc. to spell check. then i copy and paste it back. also i stand corrected


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

xxxSHyXAxxx said:


> i can't spell worth a crap so i copy and paste what i type into a word doc. to spell check. then i copy and paste it back. also i stand corrected


LOL I get it! You should download a browser like google chrome. It has spell check built in. I wouldn't be able to survive without it.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

xxxSHyXAxxx said:


> i can't spell worth a crap so i copy and paste what i type into a word doc. to spell check. then i copy and paste it back. also i stand corrected


I was going to say, thats the reason im typing this message on FrireFox right now!


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## Cakeslob (Dec 1, 2010)

I like the acid wash stabilizer

On the bad rap topic:
IMO anyone who has to look up how to make a paintball co2 reg on the cheap is better off getting a ready made unit. Probably a lot safer too. If you already have or know someone who has these paintball parts then go wild. Would make things a lot easier for your self and wallet to just save your money and get the "real deal". Just dont mess around with something you dont understand.


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## btimmer92 (Mar 12, 2011)

I had google chrome and loved it, but somehow it went haywire, and I had to uninstall it, now whenever I try to re-download it my computer freezes....  I don't understand....

also, I realize we are taking this thread completely off track.


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## NatCh (Feb 23, 2011)

Ha! I think we've pretty well covered the original topic, so carry on. 

Thanks, all, for the thoughts and comments. :smile:


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

I had a red sea paintball setup that I got pretty cheap, used it on my mini-m for 2 years and I loved it! never had a eotd and ran it dry several times, now I wouldn't use it for anything over a 20g but in general I don't think paintball systems get a bad rap, they just don't get used often on bigger tanks, just not efficient enough.


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## xxxSHyXAxxx (Mar 16, 2011)

don't try and hyjack our hyjacked thread. 

do you all like google chrome better then IE? i wish there was a way to download it without to try it out and then do a simple uninstall and everything is gone. i hate downloading new software then not liking it so i go to uninstall it and after you do you can still find a bunch of junk files all over your computer


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## tbarabash (May 18, 2011)

xxxSHyXAxxx said:


> i'm not trying to say you're wrong for what you purchased but IMO you should have gotten the normal tank reg and adaptor since you're thinking about getting another tank. Once you get a bigger tank you could have just gotten a splitter and ran both tanks off of the #10. Now you're going to have to buy a completely new set up.
> 
> 
> 
> with that being said. that is one downfall to a paintball set up. you can really use it on more than one tank, if having more than one tank is your thing. the main reason i decided to go with a tank vice paintball is because i wanted to expand in the future and not have to buy more things. AAAAND if i only have to keep my eye on and fill one tank i'm happier then having to watch two or three. less is best. to add to that, say you have a high light tank and a low light tank. you'll have to fill the co2 at two different times because you're not going to use as much in the low light tank. you could just fill them both but correct me if i'm wrong its a flat rate to fill the tanks. now you're just flushing money down the pooper


 
I see your point but once I get a new house the tanks are going to be in different areas of the house which pretty much nullifies that option to run a splitter off a large tank. I have two nano tanks both of which could use CO2 (only one now is using it; I want to keep the other one lower maintenance so foregoing CO2 for now) so I know for sure it will always be in use. I'd much rather have spent the $200 to have a top quality regulator to use with the small tank which can be tucked away under a shelf, in a small cabinet, etc than run 40 foot of airline tubing around rooms in my house or run it through walls to reach other rooms. 

My large plantd tank will have a larger stand in order to hide a 5# or 10# tank. And as for the maintenance of filling two tanks... with a 20oz paintball tank at 1bps timed 10 hours a day lasting me 9 months it's neither going to break the bank or take up too much time to get it filled. $5-6 and 20 minutes every 9 months isn't a task that's particularily too stressful for me to take on.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Has anyone tried this:

http://www.amazon.com/Hobart-770626-20-Ounce-Fixed-Flow-Regulator/dp/B002VECKSI

I'm not sure exactly how much this regulator steps down the PSI, but it might be safer than the on/off solution currently used by many.


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## Naekuh (Oct 19, 2011)

xxxSHyXAxxx said:


> don't try and hyjack our hyjacked thread.
> 
> do you all like google chrome better then IE? i wish there was a way to download it without to try it out and then do a simple uninstall and everything is gone. i hate downloading new software then not liking it so i go to uninstall it and after you do you can still find a bunch of junk files all over your computer


????

what does this have to do with CO2? 

If you want to derail.. then here.. lemme show u why firefox fails as well:











galabar said:


> Has anyone tried this:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Hobart-770626-20-Ounce-Fixed-Flow-Regulator/dp/B002VECKSI
> 
> I'm not sure exactly how much this regulator steps down the PSI, but it might be safer than the on/off solution currently used by many.


i want the one NatcH has!!  
the one that makes his unit a cheating unit compared to ours.  

But i can see where ur going at... i dont know if it would fit our application.. and at that price... MEH! i'd rather get a milwaukee.
The paintball unit is becoming too expensive with a 60 dollar+ regulator.

its like buying a car... do you want to pay up front now.. and get lower interest payments? or do you want to pay little up front now.. and get higher interest payments?
Ultimately... this is the difference between paintball vs regular i think. 
Unless your really tight in a spot where a 2.5lb tank wouldn't even fit, or u need to mount the tank sideways.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Naekuh said:


> ????
> 
> what does this have to do with CO2?
> 
> ...


I think the $60 includes both the tank and regulator. So, you are really looking at about $40 for the regulator.


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## Naekuh (Oct 19, 2011)

galabar said:


> I think the $60 includes both the tank and regulator. So, you are really looking at about $40 for the regulator.


yeah but you still need the needle valve.. lol... 

and at that price.. well the aquatek with a 2.5lb tank doesnt sound that bad even tho you cant set working pressure.


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## Daximus (Oct 19, 2011)

Naekuh said:


> yeah but you still need the needle valve.. lol...
> 
> and at that price.. well the aquatek with a 2.5lb tank doesnt sound that bad even tho you cant set working pressure.


Is the working pressure that big of a deal? I've read that it's stuck at 30 on those...seems having that at a constant would make dialing in the needle valve easier.

Am I crazy?


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## Naekuh (Oct 19, 2011)

Daximus said:


> Is the working pressure that big of a deal? I've read that it's stuck at 30 on those...seems having that at a constant would make dialing in the needle valve easier.
> 
> Am I crazy?


oh yes it is... lol.. 

ive been playing with the fluval.. and its decient... been playing with a paintball system.. and its tough.. not as easy as a fluval 88g, and most definitely not as easy as a real regulator.

realized it might help make things easier if you added another air valve at the end of your pin valve... so have 2 valves... 

The pin valve will act like a regulator and give u working pressure... then you can use the air valve used for air pumps and air stones to fine tune the injection and get a more steady bubble count.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Naekuh said:


> oh yes it is... lol..
> 
> ive been playing with the fluval.. and its decient... been playing with a paintball system.. and its tough.. not as easy as a fluval 88g, and most definitely not as easy as a real regulator.
> 
> ...


It might be much easier to adjust bps with a 125 or 150 PSI fixed flow regulator on the paintball bottle rather than just an 800 PSI on/off.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Here is another option:

http://www.lowes.com/webapp/wcs/sto... Portable Compressed Co2 Regulator J-6901-101


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

And a few more:

http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/CO2-Fixed-Regulator-p-297.html
http://eastsidecustomtruck.com/i-61362-hyperflo-fixed-regulator.html


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## mach_six (Sep 12, 2005)

I was thinking of a paintball tank instead but the refills for it is already half or more than half the cost of a refill for a 5lb tank...

I already had a regulator so I'd need to spend an additional $19 on the adapter.


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## NatCh (Feb 23, 2011)

I wouldn't have gone PB myself, but for the space issue. If you have the space, and especially if you already have some of the equipment, I don't understand why you would even consider PB over "regular." :shrug:


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## Jaguar (Oct 13, 2011)

Naekuh said:


> If you want to derail.. then here.. lemme show u why firefox fails as well:












Dang... beats me... but that's 2/3 of my RAM right there. Firefox has gone down the crapper lately. Too bad Chrome still has too many features missing (like viewing image properties...) to be of any use to me.

On topic, I think CO2 systems are a "go big or go home" thing. Just like you wouldn't use a cheap heater prone to bursting, I wouldn't use a cheap system with no real regulator prone to bursting. Too much time and money invested into this hobby to risk it all going down the drain. I'll stick to yeasty coke bottles until I can afford a proper setup. I live somewhere where tanks, refills, and parts don't come cheap, and I'd probably have to eat rice for the rest of my life if I got one now.


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

Bought a regulator/solenoid/nv setup from a member on here, a CO2->CGA320 adapter and a couple of paintball tanks from Walmart. Haven't looked back sense. No complaints, either. Much easier, more consistent and more precise than the old asa on/off valve+nv (if you can even call that thing one, at least not at 1000psi) ever was. Also good to know that when I upgrade to a bigger tank that I can just remove the adapter and be good to go.


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## Naekuh (Oct 19, 2011)

guys can u check this out..

on evilbay 

Item number: 170691170358

From the looks of it... that would fit on my bottle first... then i can mount the paintball regulator we use to tune the pressure down to 150 or less, and then have the needle valve work more efficiently, or then we can tie a solinoid to it.


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