# Tired of LEDs making my AR Mini look like this:



## voyetra8

My tank is totally algae free. CO2 injected to fauna's limit. EI dosed. Aquasoil Amazonia 2. 

I've tried a Finnex Ray 2, and now on a Current Sat+ Pro. 

Has anyone had success with making red plants *red* under *off the shelf* LEDS? 

I'm tempted to buy a T5 fixture and see what it can do....

.


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## ChrisX

voyetra8 said:


> My tank is totally algae free. CO2 injected to fauna's limit. EI dosed. Aquasoil Amazonia 2.
> 
> I've tried a Finnex Ray 2, and now on a Current Sat+ Pro.
> 
> Has anyone had success with making red plants *red* under *off the shelf* LEDS?
> 
> I'm tempted to buy a T5 fixture and see what it can do....
> 
> .


Does it look that way in the room? I know that my phone camera has problems with reds.


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## Immortal1

@voyetra8 for what it's worth, my Satellite Plus Pro light did very poorly with red plants. The Fluval Planted 2.0 light seemed to do much better with red plants. This is the wifes 40g running (2) of the Fluval lights









In my 75g tank I am running Radion XR15 Freshwater lights and this is how the sp Red looks









As for the T5 option - can only say some of the nicest tanks on this site seem to be running T5's. Are they for me - no.


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## OVT

Bummer (from the owner of a bunch of Satelite PROs). My AR looks too similar to OP's.

I've been reading a lot of threads on T5 vs LED, with a lot of cons and pros in each direction and I stll have a nagging feeling that I wasted a bunch of $$$. All "top" Dutch tanks seem to be running t5s. Are there any that I've missed using LEDs of the brands I can pronounce and that don't require a EE degree to turn on?


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## Kampo

not off the shelf, but very happy with how my AR mini looks under a fresh fish COB/vero18 3k mix.


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## voyetra8

ChrisX said:


> Does it look that way in the room? I know that my phone camera has problems with reds.




Yep, that's almost exactly what it looks like in person.


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## voyetra8

Kampo said:


> not off the shelf, but very happy with how my AR mini looks under a fresh fish COB/vero18 3k mix.




Got a link to the build?


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## voyetra8

Immortal1 said:


> @voyetra8 for what it's worth, my Satellite Plus Pro light did very poorly with red plants. The Fluval Planted 2.0 light seemed to do much better with red plants. This is the wifes 40g running (2) of the Fluval lights
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In my 75g tank I am running Radion XR15 Freshwater lights and this is how the sp Red looks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for the T5 option - can only say some of the nicest tanks on this site seem to be running T5's. Are they for me - no.




Thanks for the pics and data points. 

I've considered the AI Prime Freshwater (which I think is extremely similar to the Radeon) but I'm worried about complaints from my wife about seeing the underside of the puck. This tank is in the living room, and from the couch, we'd likely be looking at its underside. 

Just noticed you said your wife's tank is running TWO Fluvals. Did you ever run two Sat+ Pros on the same tank? Not asking because I am considering it - asking because I'm wondering if it's the intensity and not the brand.


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## Maryland Guppy

Commercially available LED fixtures ????
Have no experience with them other than the high end $$$ results of others.

I'm willing to bet that the PAR data associated with them is padded in favor of the manufacturer.

Is there real PAR data for the Current, Satellite, Pro, 24/7 and whatever other suffix is thrown @ these models.

High-end reef light manufacturers have no issues posting their PAR data but the planted tank side of things falls way short.

Glass lids, lexan, plexi or whatever also affect PAR considerably.
Would think that religious cleaning of lids falls short for most.

IMHO AR with olive looking leaf tops is PAR related for sure.


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## Immortal1

@voyetra8 for what its worth, prior to my Radions, I was running (2) 24" Fluval 2.0 lights (middle), a 48" Satellite Plus Pro (front), and a 48" Satellite Plus (back) on my 75g tank. All lights were near 100% power and generated about 90 PAR at the substrate. The problem, in my opinion, was the PUR was way off (very little at either end of spectrum). That was the main reason for getting the Radions.

As for the AI Prime lights, that was my #2 choice. Nice lights. My tank(s) are in the living room and from the couch you "could" see the underside of the pucks. I added a 1" wide strip of black tape to the bottom front edge and now you can't see the underside of the pucks and honestly, you never notice the tape either.


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## voyetra8

> As for the AI Prime lights, that was my #2 choice. Nice lights. My tank(s) are in the living room and from the couch you "could" see the underside of the pucks. I added a 1" wide strip of black tape to the bottom front edge and now you can't see the underside of the pucks and honestly, you never notice the tape either.




Holy smokes! All those LEDs strips is kinda of hilarious. I guess the writing is on the wall - I'm going to have to upgrade to a "serious" LED or T5HO if I want my red plants to be red. 

It's a shame because all the efficiency advantages of LEDs seem to fall by the wayside when you have to stack 4 fixtures on a tank. 

I had considered making a tape lip myself - so that's great that you've done it and it works. Maybe some enterprising individual could design one that could be 3D printed...


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## voyetra8

Immortal1 said:


> That was the main reason for getting the Radions.




Did you get the Wi-Fi controller? 

I'm a little annoyed that a $350 LED requires me to spend an additional $100 just so that I can control it from my phone. 

Especially when there are sub-$100 LEDs that have native WiFi. 

:/


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## OVT

Current PAR as a PDF download. They have no problem reporting the numbers. https://current-usa.com/support/satellite-led-plus-pro-product-support/

I have 2 PROs at 75% on a 36x18x21" deep tank and it's bright enough even for me. 4 x PLUS at 100% on a 18" cube are visually the same.

I am 3 weeks into converting rotala macrandra to submerged and the new growth is showing some pink. If it does not go red, I will switch back to t5 on that tank.

Under t5:


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## gus6464

Do you have to wait for the new leaves to grow in order to see if they going to be red? Is that an led thing? Under T5 I've seen brown ar minis and every other red plant there is and it would turn red without requiring new growth.

Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


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## Immortal1

voyetra8 said:


> Did you get the Wi-Fi controller?
> 
> I'm a little annoyed that a $350 LED requires me to spend an additional $100 just so that I can control it from my phone.
> 
> Especially when there are sub-$100 LEDs that have native WiFi.
> 
> :/


I did not get the WiFi controller. Yet. Have thought about it several times. 
Agree 100% - why do I have to pay $100 more for something the competition includes.


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## voyetra8

Immortal1 said:


> I did not get the WiFi controller. Yet. Have thought about it several times.
> Agree 100% - why do I have to pay $100 more for something the competition includes.




Do you find using the USB port to make changes a pain / annoying / obnoxious?


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## Immortal1

Pretty much all of the above. Trying to decide how much of an annoyance I can put up with before I get the WiFi, lol


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## jeffkrol

OVT said:


> Bummer (from the owner of a bunch of Satelite PROs). My AR looks too similar to OP's.
> 
> I've been reading a lot of threads on T5 vs LED, with a lot of cons and pros in each direction and I stll have a nagging feeling that I wasted a bunch of $$$. All "top" Dutch tanks seem to be running t5s. Are there any that I've missed using LEDs of the brands I can pronounce and that don't require a EE degree to turn on?


http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...-light-can-grow-red-plants-really-well-2.html


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## Immortal1

jeffkrol said:


> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...-light-can-grow-red-plants-really-well-2.html


I will agree - BML's were some very nice LEDs! I would very much hesitate to put the Satellite Plus Pro in the same category.


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## OVT

jeffkrol said:


> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...-light-can-grow-red-plants-really-well-2.html


Right, we've been through this topic before. He was running custom made LEDs from BML. If I read his posts correctly, most of his tanks are running t5s. https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/light-3pillars.html


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## gus6464

I was wondering how long it would take for Jeff to show up with rando links.

Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


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## jeffkrol

gus6464 said:


> I was wondering how long it would take for Jeff to show up with rando links.
> 
> Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


Better than random opinions and ass-u-ming things.
Nothing random about them and if you can't figure out how they apply, not my problem.


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## Deanna

First thing I’d do would be to get my incandescent flood light from the basement and see if the leaves really are red and don’t just need more nutrients, such as iron. I have a Beamswork and some Aquarays (both LEDs) and my AR (not mini) are beautifully deep red.

Something cheap you can try is to add some red, but not too much so that it is unappealing. These are cheap and do the job: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B073GYKJ2T/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 or something like them. They may bring out your reds …if the reds are there, and help with growth as well. I have them and only two strips are needed in my 29 gal. Here is a Seneye reading from my tank:


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## gus6464

jeffkrol said:


> Better than random opinions and ass-u-ming things


I provide people with real world data and not just random crap on paper. BML no longer exists. What's the point of linking to a light you can't buy anywhere which was also custom to begin with. That link absolutely helps no one in this thread.

You like to ramble on about crap you have ZERO real life experience with (ie. ATI T5 Powermodule). At the end of the day you put 2 lights in front of a pro aquascaper to choose for a setup, a high-end T5 fixture and whatever LED you want and they will go for the T5 100% of the time.

Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


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## voyetra8

OVT said:


> Right, we've been through this topic before. He was running custom made LEDs from BML. If I read his posts correctly, most of his tanks are running t5s. https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/light-3pillars.html




It looks like Dennis is a fan of the new Twinstar S. It’s been on my shortlist.

One of the downsides is the lack of dimming (easily remedied). But also bummed that I can’t ramp on / off cycles. 

The other downside is I can’t imagine there is much, if any, support if the unit is faulty. (Build quality looks really nice, but I have no idea what’s happening with the internals.)


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## jeffkrol

If you can PWM dim it you can ramp it...
As to internals, not sure what you were referring to.. Circuit board, power supply(driver) and wires, aluminum and plastic.. 

Bump: If you can PWM dim it you can ramp it...
As to internals, not sure what you were referring to.. Circuit board, power supply(driver) and wires, aluminum and plastic..


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## Greggz

jeffkrol said:


> Better than random opinions and ass-u-ming things.
> Nothing random about them and if you can't figure out how they apply, not my problem.


Jeff don't you ever get exhausted? 

This constant adoration of LED's, and your quest to make sure EVERYONE else adores LED's just as much as you seems to be getting obsessive. I've never seem someone so transfixed on one aspect of the hobby (well that and dual stage regulators!). 

I'm just saying it's getting more and more odd. You OK??? Seems like you need some rest.


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## sohankpatel

The only LEDs I have been remotely happy with are the BML ones, otherwise T5 beats it in every way except the fact that you need to replace bulbs


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## Quagulator

my AR mini under fluval 2.0 running 75% 16" substrate - light.

I wouldn't call it a deep red, but red enough for the most part.


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## jeffkrol

gus6464 said:


> I provide people with real world data and not just random crap on paper. BML no longer exists. What's the point of linking to a light you can't buy anywhere which was also custom to begin with. That link absolutely helps no one in this thread.
> 
> You like to ramble on about crap you have ZERO real life experience with (ie. ATI T5 Powermodule). At the end of the day you put 2 lights in front of a pro aquascaper to choose for a setup, a high-end T5 fixture and whatever LED you want and they will go for the T5 100% of the time.
> 
> Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


you know I'm dealing w 3ft snow drifts at the moment so my ability to be "diplomatic" is wearing thin.




> ..fixture and whatever LED you want and they will go for the T5 100% of the time.


People pick what is familiar or follow other sheeple.. Not my issue..
Humans are slow to adapt and ... stubborn.
So what.. give them a choice of ATi or Beamswork?? Funny. 
Now as to experience didn't you fail w/ freshwater here, go to reefing and now, for some reason are back here?

You had a Radion xr15 and did nothing but grow algea soup if I remember correctly. NOT the lights problem..

I have no problem admitting mistakes (maybe you should take note) but you had better PROVE it..

You want honesty, I see you buying whole bunches of stuff but yet to see your "success" w/ any of it..
I posted BRS screen capture of Atlantik vs ATI ..
How much more "real" do you want?
I gave mutiple PAR readings from various sources.. How much more "real" do you need?
I purposely try to find multiple sources to prove or disprove a concept.. I'm not GOD.. are you?
Heck are you a flat world-er.. I mean you haven't tried to prove the world is round.. have you? Must be flat.

Bump:


Greggz said:


> Jeff don't you ever get exhausted?
> 
> This constant adoration of LED's, and your quest to make sure EVERYONE else adores LED's just as much as you seems to be getting obsessive. I've never seem someone so transfixed on one aspect of the hobby (well that and dual stage regulators!).
> 
> I'm just saying it's getting more and more odd. You OK??? Seems like you need some rest.


and you have so little self awareness that you don't see you "adore" t5's?
Never saw anything but back hand comments from you regarding LED's..

Read my comments here (2015, hasn't changed):
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...-light-can-grow-red-plants-really-well-2.html


> Yes I was being sarcastic. I believe "red" is more complicated than people like to think it is.
> I see some having absolutely no problem w/ reds and LED's
> That said, I also suspect the fact that LED's, having zero UV may also play a minor factor. That "sunscreen effect".
> No proof of this though.
> 
> It is much more important to me to have control of color and intensity in an easy to deal with fashion (multicolored, programmable fixtures)
> 
> so I have a bias..
> The 6500k "thing" has somewhat hindered the reputation of LED's..


Actually it is you that has the issue.. What LED's hurt you?


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## OVT

voyetra8 said:


> It looks like Dennis is a fan of the new Twinstar S. It’s been on my shortlist.


My downside is becoming forcibly single. I see no way in hell how I can explain to my wife that I "need" yet another light.
Oh, and the $$$.

Back to trying growing Java fern, I recently saw some neat scapes with it. I wonder whether Java's growing popularity has any correlation to prolifiration of LEDs.


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## Maryland Guppy

jeffkrol said:


> Heck are you a flat world-er.. I mean you haven't tried to prove the world is round.. have you? Must be flat.


I think Isabella funded Columbus on a journey for this one already! >


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## jeffkrol

Maryland Guppy said:


> I think Isabella funded Columbus on a journey for this one already! >


Yea but if I post a link someone will criticize me for no direct experience..Wish I'd been on the Santa Maria.. I'd have more credibility..


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## voyetra8

OVT said:


> My downside is becoming forcibly single. I see no way in hell how I can explain to my wife that I "need" yet another light.
> 
> Oh, and the $$$.
> 
> 
> 
> Back to trying growing Java fern, I recently saw some neat scapes with it. I wonder whether Java's growing popularity has any correlation to prolifiration of LEDs.




Hah. 

Can you put some stuff up for sale to offset the cost? 

Speaking of which, any interest in a Sat Plus Pro and a Ray 2? [emoji38]


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## gus6464

jeffkrol said:


> you know I'm dealing w 3ft snow drifts at the moment so my ability to be "diplomatic" is wearing thin.
> 
> 
> People pick what is familiar or follow other sheeple.. Not my issue..
> Humans are slow to adapt and ... stubborn.
> So what.. give them a choice of ATi or Beamswork?? Funny.
> Now as to experience didn't you fail w/ freshwater here, go to reefing and now, for some reason are back here?
> 
> You had a Radion xr15 and did nothing but grow algea soup if I remember correctly. NOT the lights problem..
> 
> I have no problem admitting mistakes (maybe you should take note) but you had better PROVE it..
> 
> You want honesty, I see you buying whole bunches of stuff but yet to see your "success" w/ any of it..
> I posted BRS screen capture of Atlantik vs ATI ..
> How much more "real" do you want?
> I gave mutiple PAR readings from various sources.. How much more "real" do you need?
> I purposely try to find multiple sources to prove or disprove a concept.. I'm not GOD.. are you?
> Heck are you a flat world-er.. I mean you haven't tried to prove the world is round.. have you? Must be flat.
> 
> Bump:
> 
> and you have so little self awareness that you don't see you "adore" t5's?
> Never saw anything but back hand comments from you regarding LED's..
> 
> Read my comments here (2015, hasn't changed):
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...-light-can-grow-red-plants-really-well-2.html
> 
> 
> Actually it is you that has the issue.. What LED's hurt you?


I have posted pictures of many of my tanks throughout threads across the years. I can guarantee you that most of my tanks have looked better than the stuff that you have posted of your tank.

As a matter of fact go ahead and post a picture of YOUR tank with you awesome LEDs so we can all stare in awe. All I ever see are pictures of tanks that look like Mars. Or you will always post pictures of someone else's tank but your own is never to be found.

I have tried led, diy led, halide, t5, on my actual tanks unlike you who just likes to spout about led while posting pictures of someone else's tank. I show my successes and failures unlike you.

But hey please go ahead and shut us all up and post pictures of your tank with your amazing LEDs. I want to see some reds that are only attainable with your skills.

Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


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## voyetra8

jeffkrol said:


> If you can PWM dim it you can ramp it...
> 
> As to internals, not sure what you were referring to.. Circuit board, power supply(driver) and wires, aluminum and plastic..
> 
> Bump: If you can PWM dim it you can ramp it...
> 
> As to internals, not sure what you were referring to.. Circuit board, power supply(driver) and wires, aluminum and plastic..




Is there such a thing as an off the shelf LED timer / programmable dimmer?  

Bonus points for wifi! 

(Or do I have to build it?)


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## jeffkrol

voyetra8 said:


> Is there such a thing as an off the shelf LED timer / programmable dimmer?
> 
> Bonus points for wifi!
> 
> (Or do I have to build it?)


Chinese make literally dozens.. 
Easiest is the TC-420 or TC-421

Can be used w/ almost any constant voltage led array.. Need to adhere to the 4A rating per channel (usually a fixture).
May need to cut wires..
TC420 Programmable LED Time Controller

Menus on the bottom..


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## gus6464

voyetra8 said:


> It looks like Dennis is a fan of the new Twinstar S. It’s been on my shortlist.
> 
> One of the downsides is the lack of dimming (easily remedied). But also bummed that I can’t ramp on / off cycles.
> 
> The other downside is I can’t imagine there is much, if any, support if the unit is faulty. (Build quality looks really nice, but I have no idea what’s happening with the internals.)


Ask Jeff what he thinks of the Twinstar S/SP even though he has never even seen one in real life. He will rant all day about the Spectra plot though.

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## Maryland Guppy

I think I understand completely where @jeffkrol is coming from.
Please correct me if I am wrong Jeff, I don't defend much around here!

LED lighting has advanced to a more than adequate level for lighting a planted tank.

Very few manufacturers are providing a premium fixture and then it comes with a high price.

The majority of manufacturers provide a planted tank light that is mostly less than adequate for our purposes.

DIY projects albeit done correctly are few and far between, the correct ones can throw the PAR rating through the roof if needed. The DIY projects cost less but do require a skill set that not everyone has. This doesn't mean they are a bargain, they just cost less than the premium commercially available fixtures.

And no, I refuse to chase high CRI ratings! >


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## jeffkrol

gus6464 said:


> I have tried led, diy led, halide, t5, on my actual tanks unlike you who just likes to spout about led while posting pictures of someone else's tank. I show my successes and failures unlike you.
> 
> But hey please go ahead and shut us all up and post pictures of your tank with your amazing LEDs. I want to see some reds that are only attainable with your skills.
> 
> Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


I hated your purple tank as much as you hated my Mars tank.. 
Just posted a current photo of my orig 40b (mars tank) unlike your dead cube.. you just need to find it.
If I link to it you will be upset..
How long did it last till you gave up in algae frustration?.. It's OK.. happens..


For years I told anyone who listens.. I don't chase red. Actually I do not like those candy colored tanks in particular anyways.
Def wouldn't be a goal but since knowledge shouldn't stop at what one wants to do I persued my "research" into it.
There was a REASON BML built a "Dutch" LED and almost every LED build I did or suggested follow, to a certain degree, BML's "pattern.
Which wasn't perfect, in my mind, anyways. 

THAT is TOTALLY personal..

I've always said reds can be difficult w/ LED but most was for the simple fact that, like reef tanks, people were under the mis-conception that 3W of LED was equal to 12W of tubes..
Stupid thinking but sold a lot of under powered LED's..and everyone "blamed" LED's.. Funny.
SPS, red plants same disinformation about LED's..though YES LED's shade more and also can be hot spotty.. Other than that one is as good as another..
Which reminds me, I asked that you help me interpret those charts on spectrum and how it affects plant systems. Still waiting..
Though you got the orig papers which I wasn't about to buy.. Remember those?


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## gus6464

jeffkrol said:


> I hated your purple tank as much as you hated my Mars tank..
> Just posted a current photo of my orig 40b (mars tank) unlike your dead cube.. you just need to find it.
> If I link to it you will be upset..
> How long did it last till you gave up in algae frustration?.. It's OK.. happens..
> 
> 
> For years I told anyone who listens.. I don't chase red. Actually I do not like those candy colored tanks in particular anyways.
> Def wouldn't be a goal but since knowledge shouldn't stop at what one wants to do I persued my "research" into it.
> There was a REASON BML built a "Dutch" LED and almost every LED build I did or suggested follow, to a certain degree, BML's "pattern.
> Which wasn't perfect, in my mind, anyways.
> 
> THAT is TOTALLY personal..
> 
> I've always said reds can be difficult w/ LED but most was for the simple fact that, like reef tanks, people were under the mis-conception that 3W of LED was equal to 12W of tubes..
> Stupid thinking but sold a lot of under powered LED's..and everyone "blamed" LED's.. Funny.
> SPS, red plants same disinformation about LED's..though YES LED's shade more and also can be hot spotty.. Other than that one is as good as another..
> Which reminds me, I asked that you help me interpret those charts on spectrum and how it affects plant systems. Still waiting..
> Though you got the orig papers which I wasn't about to buy.. Remember those?


Lot of words and no pictures. Figures.

Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


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## jeffkrol

Maryland Guppy said:


> I think I understand completely where @*jeffkrol* is coming from.
> Please correct me if I am wrong Jeff, I don't defend much around here!
> 
> LED lighting has advanced to a more than adequate level for lighting a planted tank.
> 
> Very few manufacturers are providing a premium fixture and then it comes with a high price.
> 
> The majority of manufacturers provide a planted tank light that is mostly less than adequate for our purposes.
> 
> DIY projects albeit done correctly are few and far between, the correct ones can throw the PAR rating through the roof if needed. The DIY projects cost less but do require a skill set that not everyone has. This doesn't mean they are a bargain, they just cost less than the premium commercially available fixtures.
> 
> And no, I refuse to chase high CRI ratings! >


Pretty much............Actually for the "connoisseur" the only lights I'd personally recommend are AI and Radion xr15's..
Fluval has beautiful color and so do a host of others. 
Also many others have high power.
Orphek
sbreef

But each has a slight "problem" based on MY OWN personal opinion. Not even saying they are all correct, but it needs proof (both ways actually)
Tubes
MH also ..no perfect light, and some are much better for one use or another but it's NOT the source, just the execution..

No more, no less, no "magic" photons BUT.. I'm still hedging on UV..

Actually many DIY projects are quite good. Where they fail is in the lack of having deep enough pockets and
the humility to admit that there are errors..Most certainly aren't fatal but obviously nobody has an R&D dept and spectrophotometers or tanks to test various "models".. 

The lights aren't just diodes, but placement, grouping, power, cooling and yes, aesthetics and budget...

Bump:


gus6464 said:


> Lot of words and no pictures. Figures.
> 
> Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


Find it posted it today I believe.. 
you hate links soo.. no link..

Oh heck.. older for fun:
















The above pink Rotala died.. 
To be honest.. Green plants are healthy plants..and un-stressed.. 

Cheap 3W "Bridgelux" LED's 30 diodes, low mA's and most not on full..90W max over a 40b 120 degree lenses..large spread


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## gus6464

jeffkrol said:


> Pretty much............Actually for the "connoisseur" the only lights I'd personally recommend are AI and Radion xr15's..
> Fluval has beautiful color and so do a host of others.
> Also many others have high power.
> Orphek
> sbreef
> 
> But each has a slight "problem" based on MY OWN personal opinion. Not even saying they are all correct, but it needs proof (both ways actually)
> Tubes
> MH also ..no perfect light, and some are much better for one use or another but it's NOT the source, just the execution..
> 
> No more, no less, no "magic" photons BUT.. I'm still hedging on UV..
> 
> Actually many DIY projects are quite good. Where they fail is in the lack of having deep enough pockets and
> the humility to admit that there are errors..Most certainly aren't fatal but obviously nobody has an R&D dept and spectrophotometers or tanks to test various "models"..
> 
> The lights aren't just diodes, but placement, grouping, power, cooling and yes, aesthetics and budget...
> 
> Bump:
> 
> Find it posted it today I believe..
> you hate links soo.. no link..
> 
> Oh heck.. older for fun:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The above pink Rotala died..
> To be honest.. Green plants are healthy plants..and un-stressed..


Such amazing reds. In fact so amazing that even the green plants decided they want to be red as well even if they can't.

And since I only have tanks filled with green algae might as well post some pics.

Mini-M with the according to you overpriced crap aquasky.









60P with my DIY aquasky copy.









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## jeffkrol

Let me know what it looks like in a year or 2..............

Gus those plants were normally bronzy w/ pink undersides ("If" I remember correctly..)

Yes, LED's can color normally green plants.. Only a matter of intensity.
h. corymbosa








More normal pic of the Rotala in background. Lights running heavy actinic/high K white Hybrid LED (abandoned)


















> Mini-M with the according to you overpriced crap aquasky.


Never said it was [email protected]


----------



## jeffkrol

OVT said:


> Right, we've been through this topic before. He was running custom made LEDs from BML. If I read his posts correctly, most of his tanks are running t5s. https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/light-3pillars.html


Yes we have been down that road before..
NOT that difficult:









most current "full spectrum" LED's have an iteration of the same theme..
His biggest customization was 45 degree lenses so it can be miles above the tank .









Yes we have been through it but apparently didn't really pay attention..


> Recommendations:
> Many commercial fixtures will work okay, but finding a truly great one is difficult. I think that understanding PAR values and spectrum selection are the basics that one should know before making an LED purchase. ​
> 
> At the end of the day, both can produce great planted tanks.


I never said LED's were better.. just as good for growing plants.
Better comes in in customization, ease of home manuf, ect. You know the drill. and actually better comes in better diodes (colors and spectrum) as well..

your RayII lacks red and the Sat plus pro has weak colored diodes which is why you have "issues"..probably.
Both are also mediocre in output for the most part. Well the RayII does have some punch and the SAt plus PRO was adequate in it's day. .

To be honest (seems like the time) probably couldn't picked worse lights for your needs.



> . 1/10 the power value of standard incandescent lighting and equivalent to three T5 bulbs. The Ray II comes in


Even I wouldn't bs that much.. 

You got the equiv w/ both lights of about 3 tubes..and that is a bit generous. RayII runs 7000K diodes, again, low red content, old "thinking".

Your t5 photo shows the plants at the surface w/ highest light intensity..AFAICT Not exactly fair


----------



## voyetra8

jeffkrol said:


> To be honest (seems like the time) probably couldn't picked worse lights for your needs.



Yah, no arguments there. 

I picked up the Ray2 about 5+ years ago when I first got into the hobby. 

The Sat+ Pro purchase was more recent.... I bought it back when BML was still in business. (At the time, couldn't justify spending the money on one.) 

Now that I grow things consistently without algae, I'm ready to step up the game.  

It's down to AI Freshwater Prime and Twinstar S at this point.


----------



## aubie98

voyetra8 said:


> Yah, no arguments there.
> 
> I picked up the Ray2 about 5+ years ago when I first got into the hobby.
> 
> The Sat+ Pro purchase was more recent.... I bought it back when BML was still in business. (At the time, couldn't justify spending the money on one.)
> 
> Now that I grow things consistently without algae, I'm ready to step up the game.
> 
> It's down to AI Freshwater Prime and Twinstar S at this point.


I think I've convinced myself that the AI Prime is what I'll be buying for my 54 gallon corner tank. Should give good PAR (probably more than I really need) over the majority of the tank (except maybe the very far front corners). Also like that it's fully customizable.


----------



## voyetra8

aubie98 said:


> I think I've convinced myself that the AI Prime is what I'll be buying for my 54 gallon corner tank. Should give good PAR (probably more than I really need) over the majority of the tank (except maybe the very far front corners). Also like that it's fully customizable.




Do you happen to know of anyone that's been using one? Haven't found any journals or "long term" reviews.


----------



## varanidguy

I don’t think my photos quite do these justice. The ludwigia repens is green and when it gets closer it stars tanning of sorts. The super red leaves have green but they turn red as they grow in and stay that way. The reineckii was added about a week and a half ago (?) and it was more brown in the tissue culture, it’s getting pink and the undersides are bright. 

Granted things aren’t as red as they could be under a several hundred dollar T5HO fixture, but it’s the $50 Beamswork DA FSPEC fixture.


----------



## aubie98

voyetra8 said:


> Do you happen to know of anyone that's been using one? Haven't found any journals or "long term" reviews.


unfortunately, there aren't a lot of reviews. there are a smattering of people on the board that have bought and used them (http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/1215050-setting-ai-prime-freshwater.html), but no long term users. The lights only came out in fall 2017, so still sort of new. Reason I'm going to use one is that it'll be over a corner tank and that complicates using strip leds. it's also fully customizable over wifi without having to buy an additional piece of equipment. thought about a radion, but honestly that's too much PAR for what I want to grow and don't want to have to buy a $100 controller after buying a $300 light.


----------



## OVT

I am about to re-do a 60P with Ember Tetras. 
Injected co2 and so on.

The plan is 75% Blyxa japonica, 25% Rotala macrandra + Rotala mini + ? Trying to keep it simple.
All of my tanks are currently running a mixture of Current LEDs.

The 24" lights that I have on hand are:
2 x Satelite Plus
1 x Satelite PRO
2 x Fluval Glo x 1 t5
2 x Flival Glo x 2 t5

I could probably spend ~$200 on a new light without being Bobbitt'ed

Advise? (and taking bets)


----------



## gus6464

OVT said:


> I am about to re-do a 60P with Ember Tetras.
> Injected co2 and so on.
> 
> The plan is 75% Blyxa japonica, 25% Rotala macrandra + Rotala mini + ? Trying to keep it simple.
> All of my tanks are currently running a mixture of Current LEDs.
> 
> The 24" lights that I have on hand are:
> 2 x Satelite Plus
> 1 x Satelite PRO
> 2 x Fluval Glo x 1 t5
> 2 x Flival Glo x 2 t5
> 
> I could probably spend ~$200 on a new light without being Bobbitt'ed
> 
> Advise? (and taking bets)


Twinstar 600S

Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

Could always give SBReef FW leds a consideration, then again it might look ridiculous on a 90P

the spot the Ludwigia perunesis is in is about 160 PAR



About 250 PAR her iirc


the AR Mini has been shaded for too long here, less than 60 PAR iirc


----------



## voyetra8

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> Could always give SBReef FW leds a consideration, then again it might look ridiculous on a 90P




Just looked them up... compelling, but it's the same size as my 60P. Haha.


----------



## gus6464

voyetra8 said:


> Just looked them up... compelling, but it's the same size as my 60P. Haha.


Not necessarily a bad thing. At least you know every inch of your tank will be covered with direct light.


----------



## OVT

voyetra8 said:


> Just looked them up... compelling, but it's the same size as my 60P. Haha.


Man, it does look ah ah a bit big. And I do not see them in 24".

https://sbreeflights.com/sbox-fw-plant-lights/21-basic-fresh-water-plant-led-light.html


----------



## gus6464

OVT said:


> Man, it does look ah ah a bit big. And I do not see them in 24".
> 
> https://sbreeflights.com/sbox-fw-plant-lights/21-basic-fresh-water-plant-led-light.html


Next time I'm at the LFS I will take a pic of a big UNS 120U tank they have being lit up by a single Twinstar 900SP. For reference the the 120U is 48x24x24. They not growing carpet at the bottom but the red plants are pretty red for an LED.

Video but quality is not amazing.
https://www.facebook.com/PetZoneSD/videos/10156119107322170/


----------



## voyetra8

gus6464 said:


> Next time I'm at the LFS I will take a pic of a big UNS 120U tank they have being lit up by a single Twinstar 900SP.



This is super helpful - thanks!


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

gus6464 said:


> Next time I'm at the LFS I will take a pic of a big UNS 120U tank they have being lit up by a single Twinstar 900SP. For reference the the 120U is 48x24x24. They not growing carpet at the bottom but the red plants are pretty red for an LED.
> 
> Video but quality is not amazing.
> https://www.facebook.com/PetZoneSD/videos/10156119107322170/


ooh that looks super nice, can you ask them for some PAR data too?


----------



## gus6464

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> ooh that looks super nice, can you ask them for some PAR data too?


The dont have a par meter but I can already tell you it's not going to be high.

Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


----------



## OVT

And the reddest plant in that tank is Tiger lotus.


----------



## gus6464

OVT said:


> And the reddest plant in that tank is Tiger lotus.


Isn't it tricky to get tiger lotus that red? 

Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


----------



## voyetra8

gus6464 said:


> The dont have a par meter but I can already tell you it's not going to be high.
> 
> Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk




Really? I thought the Twinstar 600s was supposed to be high PAR....


----------



## GaryH

Can nutrients in the water column cause plant coloration to alter?


----------



## jeffkrol

GaryH said:


> Can nutrients in the water column cause plant coloration to alter?


Iron is said to preserve the pigment molecules from breakdown and low nitrates cause a lack of chlorophyll..
As to other nutrients.. ???


----------



## gus6464

voyetra8 said:


> Really? I thought the Twinstar 600s was supposed to be high PAR....


Yeah it is high PAR when using on the recommended tank. They have a single 900S on a 120U which is 4ftx2ftx2ft. A 900S on a 90P would be high PAR. 600S on 60P as well. It is definitely a nice light that punches above its weight evident by the look of that huge tank with a single 900S.


----------



## voyetra8

Came across this link that might be helpful comparison for those wanting to see how the Twinstar compares to ADA Solar RGB and others: https://youtu.be/ghaiqx4AzcI

Seems to be lower CRI and a warmer color temp overall.


----------



## gus6464

voyetra8 said:


> Came across this link that might be helpful comparison for those wanting to see how the Twinstar compares to ADA Solar RGB and others: https://youtu.be/ghaiqx4AzcI
> 
> Seems to be lower CRI and a warmer color temp overall.


Well I will say the Twinstar definitely has the best color if you take out the Solar RGB. The Solar RGB though is in a whole other class of color rendition and I can't think of a single unit you can buy that's in the same league. Well other than T5 at least.


----------



## Surf

> Can nutrients in the water column cause plant coloration to alter?


Absolutely.



> Iron is said to preserve the pigment molecules from breakdown and low nitrates cause a lack of chlorophyll..
> As to other nutrients.. ???


ALL NUTRIENTS must be present at optimal levels for good color. There are about 14 that plants need.

Many people claim iron is good for red color because Iron oxide is red. However the pigments in plants that produce the red color do not have iron in them. In fact The pigments for red are mainly made from carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen with nitrogen and phosphorous playing a big role in the formation of the pigment. 

Often Light manufactures provide little to now data on light intensity and spectrum. As a result when buying a new light it might cause faster growth and faster nutrient depletion in the water. This can easily cause new deficiencies and poor color in plants after a light change.


----------



## mgeorges

nvm


----------



## jeffkrol

Surf said:


> Many people claim iron is good for red color because Iron oxide is red.


Has nothing to do w/ that...



> *ABSTRACT*
> 
> In this work we characterize the changes induced by iron deficiency in the pigment composition of pear (_Pyrus communis_ L.) leaves grown under high light intensities in field conditions in Spain. Iron deficiency induced decreases in neoxanthin and β‐carotene concomitantly with decreases in chlorophyll _a_, whereas lutein and carotenoids within the xanthophyll cycle were less affected. Iron deficiency caused major increases in the lutein/chlorophyll _a_ and xanthophyll cycle pigments/chlorophyll _a_ molar ratios. The chlorophyll _a_/chlorophyll _b_ ratio increased in response to iron deficiency. The carotenoids within the xanthophyll cycle in iron‐deficient and in iron‐sufficient (control) leaves underwent epoxidations and de‐epoxidations in response to ambient light conditions. In control leaves dark‐adapted for several hours, most of the xanthophyll cycle pigment pool was in the epoxidated form vio‐laxanthin, whereas iron‐deficient leaves had significant amounts of zeaxanthin. Iron‐deficient leaves also exhibited an increased non‐photochemical quenching, supporting the possibility of a role for pigments within the xanthophyll cycle in photoprotection.





> The contents of chlorophyll-a, carotenoid, phycocyanin, and allophycocyanin under an iron-limited condition were lower than those under an iron-replete condition, and they all reached maximal contents on day 4 under the iron-limited condition.
> 
> Effects of Iron on Growth, Pigment... (PDF Download Available). Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/public...cystis_aeruginosa_and_Microcystis_wesenbergii [accessed Apr 18 2018].


bit more readable.


> According to Gould et al (2008), "iron... enhances anthocyanin production, perhaps through the greater availability of iron in a high light environment or through iron's ability to inhibit anthocyanin degradation." (140) So iron plays an indirect role in making plants red.....Cautionary note:
> Adding too much iron can cause iron toxicity which can kill fish



https://barrreport.com/threads/what-makes-red-plants-red-anthocyanins-contain-no-iron.11491/



Wisdom:



> I really have never found any consistency with various claims about red color other than red colored lighting.
> And the plants are not red per se, they are red because the lighting is red. Otherwise, just good basic growing conditions, regardless of green or red colored plants.
> And traces are needed for that.
> 
> I think if you give the plants good basic building blocks(carbon, N, P, trace metal etc) for the various compounds, then the plants do a fine job on their own.
> You can stress plants to get less Chl a/b, but that sort of goes against good growth, but with less Chl a/b, you see the AC better.
> But the plants are pale, grow smaller and other signs of nitrogen limitation. Go too far and things stunt. I've done plenty of this, many of us have, it's called not dosing and neglecting the tank, perhaps you have a lot of fish so you can maintain and low residual and not stunt to the point of a problem.
> I'd rather manage the tank through trimming and good gardening than stunting plants. Color, well, I've seen enough bad photoshopping in my day. I know the limits of colors in plants in person.
> You see enough tanks around the world traveling and doing talks, you get a pretty good feel for it.
> 
> 
> #19
> Tom Barr, Sep 5, 2013


----------



## HBdirtbag

OVT said:


> Bummer (from the owner of a bunch of Satelite PROs). My AR looks too similar to OP's.
> 
> I've been reading a lot of threads on T5 vs LED, with a lot of cons and pros in each direction and I stll have a nagging feeling that I wasted a bunch of $$$. All "top" Dutch tanks seem to be running t5s. Are there any that I've missed using LEDs of the brands I can pronounce and that don't require a EE degree to turn on?



i've got sat pro's and my AR looks nothing like that, bright red and bright pink underneath


----------



## gus6464

HBdirtbag said:


> i've got sat pro's and my AR looks nothing like that, bright red and bright pink underneath


How many though? If you gotta line up the entire top of the tank with LED fixtures to get what you want you might've as hell have bought T5 in the first place.


----------



## voyetra8

HBdirtbag said:


> i've got sat pro's and my AR looks nothing like that, bright red and bright pink underneath



Do you have any pics? Single fixture?


----------



## HBdirtbag

Two fixtures, tank is 48" x 18" x 18". but the front light has always been down to about 50% of power.


----------



## varanidguy

HBdirtbag said:


> Two fixtures, tank is 48" x 18" x 18". but the front light has always been down to about 50% of power.




Beautiful!


----------



## HBdirtbag

...


----------



## jeffkrol

"Normalized" the expose a bit.. 
You can tell amount by grey bars around photo..
Interesting shades...



> you want to build a Solar ..start here..
> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> myData adaglowwhite.txt [120°] x2
> OSRAM OSLON-SSL DeepBlue (449-461nm) [120°] x2
> OSRAM OSLON-SSL TrueGreen (513-537nm) [120°] x5.2
> OSRAM OSLON-SSL Red (620-632nm) [120°] x2
> ----------------------------------------
> 
> * SIMULATION DATA
> ----------------------------------------
> Luminous flux : 2,018 lm
> Radiant flux : 6,501 mW
> PPF : 28.8 umol/s
> TCP : 7870 K
> CRI : 91
> λp : 452 nm
> Color : #CCECFF


Just the white.. only estimate of course:


> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> myData adaglowwhite.txt [120°] x1
> ----------------------------------------
> 
> * SIMULATION DATA
> ----------------------------------------
> Luminous flux : 599 lm
> Radiant flux : 1,856 mW
> PPF : 8.2 umol/s
> TCP : 6580 K
> CRI : 97
> λp : 452 nm
> Color : #FEFBFF


----------



## Surf

> The contents of chlorophyll-a, carotenoid, phycocyanin, and allophycocyanin under an iron-limited condition were lower than those under an iron-replete condition, and they all reached maximal contents on day 4 under the iron-limited condition.


Jeffkrol If you limit any one nutrient you will always see reductions in some part of the plant. In other words is if you did the same experiment done above but limited nitrogen instead of iron you would get the same results. Nitrogen is needed to make Chlorophyll, Carotenoid, pllyycocyanin. If it is restricted the plant would struggle to make anything. 

You could do the same for all 14 essential elements plants need and come up with the same or very similar result. That is why I said:

ALL NUTRIENTS must be present at optimal levels for good color.


----------



## jeffkrol

Surf said:


> Jeffkrol If you limit any one nutrient you will always see reductions in some part of the plant. In other words is if you did the same experiment done above but limited nitrogen instead of iron you would get the same results. Nitrogen is needed to make Chlorophyll, Carotenoid, pllyycocyanin. If it is restricted the plant would struggle to make anything.
> 
> You could do the same for all 14 essential elements plants need and come up with the same or very similar result. That is why I said:
> 
> ALL NUTRIENTS must be present at optimal levels for good color.


Wasn't doubting that at all. Just clarifying or expanding on this:


> Many people claim iron is good for red color because Iron oxide is red. However the pigments in plants that produce the red color do not have iron in them. In fact The pigments for red are mainly made from carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen with nitrogen and phosphorous playing a big role in the formation of the pigment.


Iron plays a role in production and destruction of pigments.. your suppositions were .. err.. too simplistic..
Many proteins (catalysts?) leading up to pigment production use iron..Just because the final product has none is irrelevant..


> These data suggest that different xanthophyll species may
> have distinct roles in photoprotection. Nevertheless, the role of
> --xanthophylls (in particular, Neo and Viola) in the photosynthetic
> process is not completely understood. The recent elucidation
> of the higher plant -ring hydroxylation (25, 26)
> showed that two different classes of enzymes are involved in
> hydroxylation of the - and -ionone rings of carotenes:
> ferredoxin-dependent di-iron oxygenases (CHY1 and CHY2),
> active in -ring hydroxylation, and cytochromes P450: LUT1,
> required for -ring hydroxylation, and LUT5, showing in vivo a
> major hydroxylation activity on the-ring of-carotene as well
> as minor activity on the -rings of -carotene


(sorry about the squishty translation..)
http://www.jbc.org/content/282/48/35056.full.pdf


> Ferredoxin (Fd) is a small [2Fe-2S] cluster-containing protein
> found in all organisms performing oxygenic photosynthesis.
> Fd is the first soluble acceptor of electrons on the stromal
> side of the chloroplast electron transport chain, and as such is
> pivotal to determining the distribution of these electrons to
> different metabolic reactions. In chloroplasts, the principle
> sink for electrons is in the production of NADPH, which is
> mostly consumed during the assimilation of CO2
> . In additionto this primary function in photosynthesis, Fds are also
> involved in a number of other essential metabolic reactions,
> including biosynthesis of chlorophyll, phytochrome and fatty
> acids, several steps in the assimilation of sulphur and nitro-
> gen, as well as redox signalling and maintenance of redox
> balance via the thioredoxin system and Halliwell-Asada
> cycle.


https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/pce.12046

Ch1/2 need iron..probably others ect.. Yes, it's complicated..









Yes systems need part.. mineral parts..but like I said.. was referring to Fe..and why it is important in pigment production.
About their role..
http://www.jbc.org/content/282/48/35056.full.pdf

Yea jumbly presentation but best I can do on short notice and needes a lot more study...

Shifting gears a bit:


> Iron-deprived plants usually develop interveinal chlorotic symptoms in young leaves as well as poor root formation, and when severe, the deficiency leads to growth retardation, stasis, and death (Kobayashi et al., 2003). Chlorosis has been attributed to the inhibition of chlorophyll synthesis, which requires the function of iron-containing enzymes


No iron in chlorophyll either..


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

jeffkrol said:


> "Normalized" the expose a bit..
> You can tell amount by grey bars around photo..
> Interesting shades...
> 
> 
> Just the white.. only estimate of course:


hey jeff would you happen to have a twinstar 600s diode layout/spectra1023 simulator numbers?


----------



## jeffkrol

No but can make a guess.. if my suspicions on them using OSRAM diodes for the colors and high CRI 6500k Whites for the whites..OSRAM white at SPECTRA is goofy btw..
If the chart and SPECTRA are correct they do use high CRI whites at about 6500K.. 
Rest is just charting the peak color ,
630, 523,455
RGB

Rough guess is 10,9,8 RGB.. 
Coupled w/ 6500k whites.. tone is about right, pinky, purpl-ey.. K is 8000 or less depending on white count.

All just estimates based on visual evidence..

OPP's.. yes I was wrong..could have erased it btw..


> RGB-W, Samsung LED, Nichia LED
> CCT(Color Temperature : 7050K
> LED Lifesapn : 30,000
> hr




460,525,625.. Seoul Semiconductor.. Close enough. 
Which RGB is mostly unimportant really , not referring to like deep red or royal blue ect.. just plain rgb which they use..
Only ratios matter..
Whites, on the other hand, are important.


----------



## ChrisX

jeffkrol said:


> No but can make a guess.. if my suspicions on them using OSRAM diodes for the colors and high CRI 6500k Whites for the whites..OSRAM white at SPECTRA is goofy btw..
> If the chart and SPECTRA are correct they do use high CRI whites at about 6500K..
> Rest is just charting the peak color ,
> 630, 523,455
> RGB
> 
> Rough guess is 10,9,8 RGB..
> Coupled w/ 6500k whites.. tone is about right, pinky, purpl-ey.. K is 8000 or less depending on white count.
> 
> All just estimates based on visual evidence..
> 
> OPP's.. yes I was wrong..could have erased it btw..


Published temperature for Twinstar is 7000K-ish. If they used 6500K whites, with the number of blue and cyan leds incorporated, the temperature would be much higher than 7000K. I suspect they are 5000 or 5700K (and yes, I placed money on this "bet"). The purplish cast on the wall will happen with that number of colored leds, despite the temperature of the white.


----------



## jeffkrol

ChrisX said:


> Published temperature for Twinstar is 7000K-ish. If they used 6500K whites, with the number of blue and cyan leds incorporated, the temperature would be much higher than 7000K. I suspect they are 5000 or 5700K (and yes, I placed money on this "bet"). The purplish cast on the wall will happen with that number of colored leds, despite the temperature of the white.


Possibly..
not sure now though for either.. but def "seems" warmer than 6500k.
To be honest, cultrually they aren't very predisposed to "warmer" whites.
Appears I may have had some extra diodes in my orig look. no excuse but
looking at it w/ more of a morning head.. RGB is pretty intensely magenta.

Problem w any of them.. (well calculation wise) is even if you cut the blue drive current in 1/2 (effectively 5,9,8 BGR) you still need a butt load of 
whites (any shade) to meet the 7000k criteria.
Any gues as to ratios of even b/w is 2:1
big one above is 48/70 guessing
Used the Luxeon-A 5000k (actually charts 5000k) and needed 24 3w to meet the 7000k requirement
At minimum that is 48 1W emitters to match.(lumen output is lower than 100L/W).

Def 5000k is closer than my orig. thoughts..

Can't believe I can't find a diode pattern count even..
Every image is different.. I know different sizes but most manuf will just make one "module" for different sizes, just adding for length.
diffuser doesn't help.

















not enough real data...


> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-A ANSI (5000K) [120°] x24
> SeoulSemiconductor P4 RoyalBlue (455-460nm) [120°] x5
> SeoulSemiconductor P4 Green (520-535nm) [120°] x9
> SeoulSemiconductor P4 Red (618-630nm) [120°] x8
> ----------------------------------------
> 
> * SIMULATION DATA
> ----------------------------------------
> Luminous flux : 5,765 lm
> Radiant flux : 19,277 mW
> PPF : 86.3 umol/s
> TCP : 7090 K
> CRI : 93
> λp : 448 nm
> Color : #FFC2DF


----------



## ChrisX

For our purposes, the exact ratios of the RBG doesn't matter because we can make each channel independently adjustable. 

The "trick" to emulating the Twinstar is using the same/similar whites, having adjustable colors, and employing a diffuser to avoid the disco look.

Even thought the overall look is cold, I believe they are using 5000K whites.


----------



## voyetra8

jeffkrol said:


> Possibly..
> not sure now though for either.. but def "seems" warmer than 6500k.
> To be honest, cultrually they aren't very predisposed to "warmer" whites.
> Appears I may have had some extra diodes in my orig look. no excuse but
> looking at it w/ more of a morning head.. RGB is pretty intensely magenta.
> 
> Problem w any of them.. (well calculation wise) is even if you cut the blue drive current in 1/2 (effectively 5,9,8 BGR) you still need a butt load of
> whites (any shade) to meet the 7000k criteria.
> Any gues as to ratios of even b/w is 2:1
> big one above is 48/70 guessing
> Used the Luxeon-A 5000k (actually charts 5000k) and needed 24 3w to meet the 7000k requirement
> At minimum that is 48 1W emitters to match.(lumen output is lower than 100L/W).
> 
> Def 5000k is closer than my orig. thoughts..
> 
> Can't believe I can't find a diode pattern count even..
> Every image is different.. I know different sizes but most manuf will just make one "module" for different sizes, just adding for length.
> diffuser doesn't help.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> not enough real data...




Neither of those are the 600s. Here is a good thread from UKAPS that has multiple pictures and a discussion about the asymmetrical LED placement: Twinstar 600S LED spacing...
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh...nstar-600S-LED-spacing....52214/&share_type=t


----------



## jeffkrol

Thanks.. Quite the oddball panel.


----------



## voyetra8

jeffkrol said:


> Thanks.. Quite the oddball panel.




Having a hard time wrapping my head around the asymmetric design. They say it's because of thermal concerns....? 

Could it be because the drivers are on that side? (Or are drivers outside of the unit?) 

Rest assured, if I pull the trigger on one, I'm going to make an extensive review video - possibly even disassembling it to see wtf is going on under the hood.


----------



## ChrisX

Assymentry may be result of color balancing. If they need an odd number of diodes spread across an area, they may not be able to symmetrically arrange them. Its possibly computer aided placement for best light balance, within certain constraints.


----------



## jeffkrol

ChrisX said:


> Assymentry may be result of color balancing. If they need an odd number of diodes spread across an area, they may not be able to symmetrically arrange them. Its possibly computer aided placement for best light balance, within certain constraints.












just for a visual idea

roughly 13 vs 17 whites in comparing 2 equal areas..


----------



## voyetra8

ChrisX said:


> Assymentry may be result of color balancing. If they need an odd number of diodes spread across an area, they may not be able to symmetrically arrange them. Its possibly computer aided placement for best light balance, within certain constraints.




Plausible, but Twinstar themselves said the arrangement was due to thermal concerns. 🤷🏻[censored]♂


----------



## ChrisX

voyetra8 said:


> Plausible, but Twinstar themselves said the arrangement was due to thermal concerns. 🤷🏻[censored]♂


Thats what I meant by "within certain constraints."

I wouldn't worry about it.


----------



## PeekDaddy

My AR looks like that in my 20g natural sunlight tank. In my 7g I have nicrew light & it grows flat & bushy like with the leaves sorta overlapping each other. I don’t have any root tabs in my 20 but I do in my 7G.


----------



## voyetra8

PeekDaddy said:


> My AR looks like that in my 20g natural sunlight tank. In my 7g I have nicrew light & it grows flat & bushy like with the leaves sorta overlapping each other. I don’t have any root tabs in my 20 but I do in my 7G.




How is the color in your 7G?


----------



## illbethejudge

I have 3 aquaneat(chinese brand) leds lights in my 120 gallon and i haven't been able to get my plants red. lights stay on for 8 hours, also injecting co2.
1 has the following specs:
*45 white leds (10000K,0.5w)
* 39 blue leds (460nm,0.5w)
* 6 red leds (625nm)
* 6 green leds(525nm)
* 5760 Lumen
the other 2 have the following specs:
*96 white leds (10000K,0.5w)
* 48 pink leds 
*7200 lumen
I have glass lids.


----------



## jeffkrol

You need more and more quality red diodes.
"pink" are usually just blue/red.

Right side is pinking out quite well..as it gets nearer the light.
Would show better under less blue more red.


----------



## OVT

As a personal update, in an 18" cube grow out tank with co2, no substrate, 18" 4 x Satelites Plus+ with blue maxed out, KNO3 and Glut dosing only, N = 40 ppm, P < 0.5 ppm (using PhosGuard), pH 6.4, kH and gH 6-7, 78°F, TDS ~ 260, medium stocking (30 tetras), heavily overplanted with about 12 plant species, 

rotala macrandra is getting deeper and deeper red ~3" from lights (surface) and directly in the current. About 75% from my personal color target.

Water sprite, mayaca, Brazilian Pennywort and N. "Taiwan" exploding, AR barrelly growing with dull copper color, vals berrelly holding on, and nesaea pedicellata 'golden' finally showing some deeper yellow at the top (converting from emerged), and ludwigia Cuba and repens x acuata (both also coverting) still unclear. A. nana very dense on driftwood, but spreading an inch a year. P. erectus close to 90% melt. With macrandra being my main focus in this tank, the rest of the plants are for general reference only.

My plan is to keep everything constant, including 40-50% WC every 2 weeks, for the next 2 - 4 weeks and see what happens next.

But also getting a fair amount of filamentous diatom algae, no GSA. But that's another challange.

Pictures will be $5/ea.


----------



## burr740

OVT said:


> As a personal update, in an 18" cube grow out tank with co2, no substrate, 18" 4 x Satelites Plus+ with blue maxed out, KNO3 and Glut dosing only, N = 40 ppm, P < 0.5 ppm (using PhosGuard), pH 6.4, kH and gH 6-7, 78°F, TDS ~ 260, medium stocking (30 tetras), heavily overplanted with about 12 plant species,
> 
> rotala macrandra is getting deeper and deeper red ~3" from lights (surface) and directly in the current. About 75% from my personal color target.
> 
> Water sprite, mayaca, Brazilian Pennywort and N. "Taiwan" exploding, AR barrelly growing with dull copper color, vals berrelly holding on, and nesaea pedicellata 'golden' finally showing some deeper yellow at the top (converting from emerged), and ludwigia Cuba and repens x acuata (both also coverting) still unclear. A. nana very dense on driftwood, but spreading an inch a year. P. erectus close to 90% melt. With macrandra being my main focus in this tank, the rest of the plants are for general reference only.
> 
> My plan is to keep everything constant, including 40-50% WC every 2 weeks, for the next 2 - 4 weeks and see what happens next.
> 
> But also getting a fair amount of filamentous diatom algae, no GSA. But that's another challange.
> 
> Pictures will be $5/ea.


You got a journal going for this tank? Sounds like an interesting set-up to follow.

What's the reason for such low P? I have to keep mine down too for some plants to do well (high light, high co2) Just curious...


----------



## OVT

No, no journal for a grow out.

Low P (and low Si) to see if that would control diatoms. About 3 weeks in and no positive results, That stuff suddenly heavily appeared in 2 of my tanks, with a smudge here and there on the roots of floaters in other tanks. Got it 95% under control in the other hi tech 60g. I am also seeing a number of current threads on this "algae" all of a sudden. Still got to figure out what it actually is and what triggers the bloom.

Another part of my personal problem is that I tend to move plants from tank to tank. Even after flushing them under the sink, I still bet I am spreading the goodness around.


----------



## Greggz

OVT said:


> As a personal update, in an 18" cube grow out tank with co2, no substrate, 18" 4 x Satelites Plus+ with blue maxed out, KNO3 and Glut dosing only, N = 40 ppm, P < 0.5 ppm (using PhosGuard), pH 6.4, kH and gH 6-7, 78°F, TDS ~ 260, medium stocking (30 tetras), heavily overplanted with about 12 plant species,
> 
> rotala macrandra is getting deeper and deeper red ~3" from lights (surface) and directly in the current. About 75% from my personal color target.
> 
> Water sprite, mayaca, Brazilian Pennywort and N. "Taiwan" exploding, AR barrelly growing with dull copper color, vals berrelly holding on, and nesaea pedicellata 'golden' finally showing some deeper yellow at the top (converting from emerged), and ludwigia Cuba and repens x acuata (both also coverting) still unclear. A. nana very dense on driftwood, but spreading an inch a year. P. erectus close to 90% melt. With macrandra being my main focus in this tank, the rest of the plants are for general reference only.
> 
> My plan is to keep everything constant, including 40-50% WC every 2 weeks, for the next 2 - 4 weeks and see what happens next.
> 
> But also getting a fair amount of filamentous diatom algae, no GSA. But that's another challange.
> 
> Pictures will be $5/ea.


Agree with Burr. Sounds like a tank with an interesting approach. Will be curious to hear how the L. Cuba and X Arcuate transition. Have seen mixed results from different tanks with those two. If it doesn't work out, contact me as I keep both submersed.

And my first thought when reading your post is that is a lot of fast growing plants in that size of tank. Holey smokes you must keep your scissors on a utility belt!


----------



## Coolaid

I run Radion xr15fw leds and have deep reds. In my plants. Most of them came in green / brown.


----------



## sevendust111

HBdirtbag said:


> Two fixtures, tank is 48" x 18" x 18". but the front light has always been down to about 50% of power.


Very curious about this set-up. I have 2 plus pros on my 25g cube (18x18x18) and have been pretty unhappy with the results. You running the front on 50% and the back on 100%? All channels 100%? When I ran the back on all channels 100% and the front all channels 75% I had horrible green algae.


----------



## OVT

sevendust111 said:


> Very curious about this set-up. I have 2 plus pros on my 25g cube (18x18x18) and have been pretty unhappy with the results. You running the front on 50% and the back on 100%? All channels 100%? When I ran the back on all channels 100% and the front all channels 75% I had horrible green algae.


What results are you unhappy with? Light intensity / spectrum / plant health or algae?

In addition to my 25g above, I also have 2 x Pros on an 36x18x21 tank, 65% all around at default yellow setting, with co2 on stream and that's the max I can manage atm.


----------



## sevendust111

OVT said:


> What results are you unhappy with? Light intensity / spectrum / plant health or algae?
> 
> In addition to my 25g above, I also have 2 x Pros on an 36x18x21 tank, 65% all around at default yellow setting, with co2 on stream and that's the max I can manage atm.


Plant health and algae mostly. Even at all channels 100% and front at all channels 75% my rotala colorata didn’t get bushy or red. I get a lot of green algae with it that high. If I go lower than 80%, the corata is very leggy and I have more brown algae problems. I had much better growth on my 20L with 3 10watt 6500K desk lamps and an 18 watt t5.

In case your wondering, I am running 4bps at 30psi through a atomic ceramic diffuser with a powerhead right over the diffuser. So Co2 is not the problem. I dose ½ EI macros and full K. I dose 2/3 El micros but full iron. I don’t have super demanding plants. Blyxa, colorata, a few types and crypts and java.


----------



## OVT

sevendust111 said:


> Plant health and algae mostly. Even at all channels 100% and front at all channels 75% my rotala colorata didn’t get bushy or red. I get a lot of green algae with it that high. If I go lower than 80%, the corata is very leggy and I have more brown algae problems. I had much better growth on my 20L with 3 10watt 6500K desk lamps and an 18 watt t5.
> 
> In case your wondering, I am running 4bps at 30psi through a atomic ceramic diffuser with a powerhead right over the diffuser. So Co2 is not the problem. I dose ½ EI macros and full K. I dose 2/3 El micros but full iron. I don’t have super demanding plants. Blyxa, colorata, a few types and crypts and java.


Remind me to hit you up on Colorata as I killed all of mine.

What do we do when we feel that the light + co2 + ferts are all aligned but we are still not getting the plant growth and the tank conditions we want? The usual fall back is to test what is actually in the water. That would be my next step.

On a related note, as your collection of plants grows, you will notice that deferrent species react to changes of specific water conditions faster then anybody else in the tank. (So called "indicator" plants). For me, if water sprite is not pearling then my co2 levels have shifted down. If Ambilia's tops are growing white, then I am low on micros. If any big-leaf Hygro is getting thin leaves then my K is likely down. That way a glance at the tank can give you an early heads up without having to do 5+ water tests.


----------



## voyetra8

Just an update. Pulled the trigger on a Twinstar 600s. 

Expect a full review when it arrives.

Currently searching for a basic wifi / scheduling dimmer that I can use with it. If anyone has any suggestions for something relatively off the shelf, I'd love to hear about it!


----------



## varanidguy

voyetra8 said:


> Just an update. Pulled the trigger on a Twinstar 600s.
> 
> Expect a full review when it arrives.
> 
> Currently searching for a basic wifi / scheduling dimmer that I can use with it. If anyone has any suggestions for something relatively off the shelf, I'd love to hear about it!




I am currently using these for my co2 system and they are great. I’m going to buy at least four more for lights on the other aquarium and reptiles.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B079GT5JFS?psc=1&ref=yo_pop_mb_pd_title


----------



## voyetra8

varanidguy said:


> I am currently using these for my co2 system and they are great. I’m going to buy at least four more for lights on the other aquarium and reptiles.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B079GT5JFS?psc=1&ref=yo_pop_mb_pd_title




Thanks, but looking for dimming capabilities - something along these lines: 

SUPERNIGHT WIFI Wireless LED Smart Controller Working with Android and IOS System Mobile Phone Free App --- https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01JS0KEBW/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_Y-E4AbKF6PE7X


----------



## jeffkrol

First one needs to know the power supply voltage.
Second one needs to know if it's driven constant voltage or constant current.
Looks to be constant voltage though some internet scuttlebutt may prove it's not.
That said though, if simple dimmers still work (does for the old series)
Twinstar LED Dimmer for E Model

Any constant voltage type PWM unit will work.
There are literally dozens.
TC-421 is probably the most common one.
Would need to find matching plugs for the head unit to wire it non-destructively.

Watch for voltage and amp limits..though even those can be a wee bit flexible.


----------



## HBdirtbag

sevendust111 said:


> Very curious about this set-up. I have 2 plus pros on my 25g cube (18x18x18) and have been pretty unhappy with the results. You running the front on 50% and the back on 100%? All channels 100%? When I ran the back on all channels 100% and the front all channels 75% I had horrible green algae.



I've changed it around all over the place. Every tanks gonna be different depending on what you have going on. SOUnds like you have too much light


----------



## MaroMan

I have had 3 BML XB 6500 fixtures over my 75 for 2 years now and they are doing great! I dose PPS Pro and at one point realized i was over dosing micros and had seen how others have had good results from dosing less micros. Once I cut the micro solution in half my AR minis turned more red.


----------



## voyetra8

Alright. Light is in! 

Initial thoughts: it seem insanely well engineered... and it's bright bright bright. Has a slightly magenta/purple bias, which you can see on the wall. 

Currently have it running at 50% intensity for 6 hours a day to get things acclimated. 

Have a WiFi scheduling solution that I'm going to implement tonight.


----------



## gus6464

voyetra8 said:


> Alright. Light is in!
> 
> Initial thoughts: it seem insanely well engineered... and it's bright bright bright. Has a slightly magenta/purple bias, which you can see on the wall.
> 
> Currently have it running at 50% intensity for 6 hours a day to get things acclimated.
> 
> Have a WiFi scheduling solution that I'm going to implement tonight.


What you using to dim?


----------



## voyetra8

gus6464 said:


> What you using to dim?



Just a $10 RF inline dimmer from Amazon.... and I've got that running into a smart outlet: Mini Remote Controller for Single Color LED https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M7TGZ9B?ref=yo_pop_ma_swf 

Tonight I'm switching over to a this Wi-Fi dimmer / timer solution: 
LEDENET Smart WiFi LED Controller https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DY56N8U?ref=yo_pop_ma_swf


----------



## OVT

@voyetra8: how do you like the legs? They do not look to be adjustable.

I like your tank, btw - looks really clean.


----------



## voyetra8

OVT said:


> @voyetra8: how do you like the legs? They do not look to be adjustable.
> 
> 
> 
> I like your tank, btw - looks really clean.




Legs don't adjust - which is fine for me. My previous light used to run flush against the top, which meant I had to remove it for maintainance. This is nice because I can get my hands in the tank without removing the light. 

The tank is in process of being rebuilt. It looked much nicer before I ripped out all the ground cover. 

Once things start to grow in, I plan to change the layout to better leverage colors / textures.


----------



## OVT

I am re-starting a 60-P also. After this and a couple of other threads I want to see what I can do with high light demanding plants in a smaller tank.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1261106-camel-60-p.html


----------



## voyetra8

OVT said:


> I am re-starting a 60-P also. After this and a couple of other threads I want to see what I can do with high light demanding plants in a smaller tank.



Funnt enough - I keep jamming plants into this tank to see what will grow. 

Survival of the fittest. 
I'll work whatever remains from the following list:

Rotala Macrandra 
Rotala Walichi 
Rotala Rotundifolia 
Crypt Wendtii
Bucephalandra Red
Riccardia Graminifolia
AR mini
Red Flame Sword
HC
Blyxa Novoguineensis 
Dwarf hairgrass
Hydrocotyl sp. mini

Want to add Sawtooth Hygro and UG, but will probably need to remove the hardscape.


----------



## voyetra8

WiFi dimmer / timer installed and working! Can only add 6 individual events, so ramping up and down isn't as smooth as I would have liked, but it's the best I can manage right now.... 

Some PWM whine from the unit when dimming the light, but I can't hear it outside the cabinet... not sure if I should be concerned?


----------



## monkeyruler90

That light looks so nice! 

good idea of adding the dimmer!


----------



## voyetra8

Plants seem to be in heaven.


----------



## gus6464

The Twinstar S/SP is my favorite looking light after the ADA Solar RGB. My LFS just got the Solar in and the color rendition is out of this world. Reds are super red and greens are super green which to some might think the colors pop a little too much. If it was $400-500 I'd buy it in a heartbeat.


----------



## voyetra8

gus6464 said:


> The Twinstar S/SP is my favorite looking light after the ADA Solar RGB. My LFS just got the Solar in and the color rendition is out of this world. Reds are super red and greens are super green which to some might think the colors pop a little too much. If it was $400-500 I'd buy it in a heartbeat.




I checked out the Solar RGB at my local shop and found the color temp to be too blue for my tastes. Felt like around 9k or so. 

Just looked it up, I was close!: 
"The color temperature of light coming out from Solar RGB is approx. 9,000-12,000K."

The reds were really red though!


----------



## OVT

@voyetra8: please keep up the updates, even though I am beginning to hate your set-up


----------



## voyetra8

OVT said:


> @voyetra8: please keep up the updates, even though I am beginning to hate your set-up




Well... Only three days in and and I'm blown away by the change already. Check these out: 



















[emoji3]


----------



## Xiaozhuang

Told ya it would work. haa...


----------



## voyetra8

Xiaozhuang said:


> Told ya it would work. haa...




Thanks Dennis. 
(Really appreciate your channel!)


----------



## gus6464

And you not even running at full power. It's time to crank it up haha.

Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


----------



## voyetra8

I added a 1 hour noon burst of 75%. 

Don't want an algae explosion.


----------



## voyetra8

Thought this pic said a lot. Check out the difference in my Rotala Wallichi pre/post Twinstar!:










Obligatory AR update:


----------



## voyetra8

Just another weekly update. Thrilled with the results. Tank continues to look better and better. Colors developing across the board. 

Downoi is flattening as leaves get wider and more tightly scalloped. 

The Crypt Wendtii has started melting, which I assume is due to increased light and temp increase (I bumped from 76F to 78F) 

Riccardia also taking off.


----------



## voyetra8

Weekly update. Macrandra transitioning... now a peachy orange. Floaters in heaven. Downoi quickly becoming my favorite plant. 

Running 75% power for 6 hours, with 2 hours at 100%. 

Minimal hair/string algae. Have increased CO2 to address.


----------



## varanidguy

Wow keep ‘em coming! The plants look beautiful!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dflow64

What's the short krinkley looking plant?


----------



## varanidguy

dflow64 said:


> What's the short krinkley looking plant?




I believe that is pogostemon helferi.


----------



## Fluffhead

Which LED dimmer did you end up getting? Was it the amazon link you posted? Definitely looking into getting a dimmer that's controllable by my phone! Tank looks great - keep the updates coming!


----------



## voyetra8

Fluffhead said:


> Which LED dimmer did you end up getting? Was it the amazon link you posted? Definitely looking into getting a dimmer that's controllable by my phone! Tank looks great - keep the updates coming!




This is the one: https://www.amazon.com/LEDENET-Smart-Controller-Channels-Control/dp/B01DY56N8U

It's very simple to hook up. Has been working well.

I took the lazy way out and bought some DC pigtail connectors so I didn't have to do any soldering. Took me about 15 mins to get it connected and working.


----------



## Fluffhead

voyetra8 said:


> This is the one: https://www.amazon.com/LEDENET-Smart-Controller-Channels-Control/dp/B01DY56N8U
> 
> It's very simple to hook up. Has been working well.
> 
> I took the lazy way out and bought some DC pigtail connectors so I didn't have to do any soldering. Took me about 15 mins to get it connected and working.


Thank you sir! Will definitely check it out. I usually take the path of least resistance so I'll look at the DC pigtail connectors too. :grin2:


----------



## JasterMake

voyetra8 said:


> This is the one: https://www.amazon.com/LEDENET-Smart-Controller-Channels-Control/dp/B01DY56N8U
> 
> It's very simple to hook up. Has been working well.
> 
> I took the lazy way out and bought some DC pigtail connectors so I didn't have to do any soldering. Took me about 15 mins to get it connected and working.



I’m looking for another 5 channel dimmer. I have a TC420 that works great but I have another tank and would like to try something with WiFi. 

Does it let you dim fade all 5 channels? 
How many time points can you have per day?
Does it ramp the brightness?

Thanks


----------



## jeffkrol

Tc-421..


----------



## JasterMake

jeffkrol said:


> Tc-421..




Have you tried he 421 yet?


----------



## jeffkrol

JasterMake said:


> Have you tried he 421 yet?


 Here we go again.. 


No, ChrisX has...


http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...gress-300w-epi-home-brew-11.html#post11009026


About the same thing but wireless.
Usual software weirdness I guess. plus some.


----------



## JasterMake

jeffkrol said:


> Here we go again..
> 
> 
> No, ChrisX has...
> 
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...gress-300w-epi-home-brew-11.html#post11009026
> 
> 
> About the same thing but wireless.
> Usual software weirdness I guess. plus some.




Thanks,

Again and again.


----------



## RisingSun

voyetra, any more updates on your AR redness? I'm thinking about getting the twinstar too as I'm also suffering from olive AR.


----------



## voyetra8

RisingSun said:


> voyetra, any more updates on your AR redness? I'm thinking about getting the twinstar too as I'm also suffering from olive AR.




My Rotala Indica and Wallichi both started to develop profoundly stunted growth, which I tracked down to a calcium deficiency. (My water here in Washington State is pretty close to RO straight out of tap.)

Started dosing Equilibrium to bring things to reasonable levels, and topped / replanted almost everything after pulling out the hardscape. Going Dutch for a while to see how it goes.  

AR the reddest I've ever grown - but I've seen redder AR in pictures before. I'm reducing my macros by about half, as I think I may have been overdoing it with nitrates. 

Blah blah blah - will try to grab you a pic tomorrow.


----------



## OVT

GL with Dutch.
In this digital world, some pictures are overrated. And if you want the Christmas look, get a tree.


----------



## voyetra8

Here's a pic pre-Saturday maintanance:


----------



## varanidguy

voyetra8 said:


> Here's a pic pre-Saturday maintanance:




That looks beautiful!!


----------



## voyetra8

varanidguy said:


> That looks beautiful!!


Thanks - but intentionally not posting full tank shot because I really dislike the scape at the moment.


----------



## varanidguy

voyetra8 said:


> Thanks - but intentionally not posting full tank shot because I really dislike the scape at the moment.




Why not?


----------



## ChrisX

voyetra8 said:


> This is the one: https://www.amazon.com/LEDENET-Smart-Controller-Channels-Control/dp/B01DY56N8U
> 
> It's very simple to hook up. Has been working well.
> 
> I took the lazy way out and bought some DC pigtail connectors so I didn't have to do any soldering. Took me about 15 mins to get it connected and working.


The "Magic Home" app that controls this looks much better than the TC421s app. It appears that Magic Home when paired with that wifi controller, can make real time color wheel changes. It also appears that you can set up a timer map for various events.

Can you confirm that the timer events are stored in the controller, or does it require signals from the app?

Also, did you modify the controller to be used with PWM drivers like a Meanwell LDD, or are you using it with constant voltage led strips?

If that wifi controller can store the timer events, there is no reason to use a TC-420/1. The only thing the TC can do is cycle through programs on the hardware. (Enabling you to load an "off" program, or quickly display colors you have stored.)


----------



## voyetra8

varanidguy said:


> Why not?




I initially had a large stone in middle of the tank, but I got tired of it, so I removed it. 

I've got a huge hole in the scape at the moment. I've got some tissue culture sawtooth hygro in it at the moment, but it's not transitioning very well... and to complicate matters - something in the tank keeps uprooting it. I suspect it's the ramshorns.[censored][censored]

I also want to put some more thought into the scape itself - creating lanes of color - etc.

Pics attached.


----------



## voyetra8

ChrisX said:


> The "Magic Home" app that controls this looks much better than the TC421s app. It appears that Magic Home when paired with that wifi controller, can make real time color wheel changes. It also appears that you can set up a timer map for various events.




Yes, if you can access the individual channels, you can control them with the app. Since the Twinstar doesn't give me access to individual channels, I just have everything mapped to the "Cool White" channel. 





ChrisX said:


> Can you confirm that the timer events are stored in the controller, or does it require signals from the app?




The controller stores everything locally, however if it loses power (either by a switch, or a power failure) you will need to resynchronize the timer with the app. 





ChrisX said:


> Also, did you modify the controller to be used with PWM drivers like a Meanwell LDD, or are you using it with constant voltage led strips?




Sorry, but I'm not entirely sure what you are asking. It's PWM. I didn't modify the unit. I'm using it with a Twinstar 600s. 







ChrisX said:


> If that wifi controller can store the timer events, there is no reason to use a TC-420/1. The only thing the TC can do is cycle through programs on the hardware. (Enabling you to load an "off" program, or quickly display colors you have stored.)




I think the advantage the TC has is "unlimited" events. This unit only allows you to store 6 at a time... allowing for only a crude on/off ramp. See attached.


----------



## ChrisX

OK, thanks. 

Losing the timer map when power goes off is a pretty big deal. Six events I can live with.


----------



## voyetra8

Adding a pic from today before trim. Straight out of cellphone, no color adjustment.


----------



## saiko

I am just at "AWE" looking at your latest pic and the pic you started off with!! 

Just a light change and so much improvement.wow!

Would you by chance have a PAR comparison of what you had initially and now? Just to convince myself that its the spectrum's magic game than the intensity.


----------



## AdamRT

Really happy to see the improvement in your red plants! Having used leds and t5’s separately and in combination, I can honestly say that both have their advantages and issues, and both can grow vivid healthy plants as long when used correctly. 

The main problem with most of the commercially available planted tank leds is that they are simply underpowered. If an aquarium is more than 12” deep, the 0.2 watt diodes found in far too many lights just aren’t going to get the job done. However, once you start getting in to 1w-3w diodes (and even .5w diodes in some applications) you can achieve fantastic growth and coloration (as demonstrated by the improvements in your AR). 

My current preference is to use leds and t5’s in combination. For my current build I’m using 88 3w eplileds 5500-6500k (diodes are all from different bins, which actually gives me a nice spread in spectrum, although generally speaking “binned” leds are the way to go), and 4x 54w t5’s over a 120. It’s total overkill and I doubt I’d ever push the leds over 50%, but the combination gives me a nice spectral distribution and plenty of oomph to get down to the bottom of the tank. 

I am using “sun setter” controllers for the leds and would recommend them to anyone looking to add sunrise/sunset and ramping ability on twinstar, chihiros, or any other led using barrel connectors. Each controller comes with two inputs (these can be used to run separate channels for lights with multiple barrel hack connections, or two fixtures with one connection each) and a remote that can control multiple controllers (as long as they’re next to each other). It’s basically a simplified tc-401 that doesn’t require any wiring and uses an lcd screen/remote to set up. 

I’ve got a problem with my t5 fixture not fitting inside my canopy (light works fine sittting on top of the canopy, but that is not the look I was going for when I bought the set up), so I may be switching that out for more leds- but first I am going to try anything I can think of to shave about an inch off the fixture I have now. Hopefully removing the end cap from one side will give me the clearance I need, otherwise I’ll soon have a brand new 48” 4x54 fixture up for sale cheap lolz. 

Anyway- point I was trying to make is not to let all the negative reviews and comments out fhere scare people away from leds- just make sure you get a light that’s strong enough for your needs, and if all else fails, combine t5 and led lighting for the best of both worlds!


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## voyetra8

saiko said:


> Would you by chance have a PAR comparison of what you had initially and now? Just to convince myself that its the spectrum's magic game than the intensity.



My original light was a 30 watt 24" Current Sat+ PRO, which claimed "100+ PAR at 12" substrate level". While it grew HC with ease, - I dont think it was anywhere close to 100. I'd say it's a medium light at best. 

The Twinstar 600s is 45 watt, and while I dont have PAR data (real or claimed), I can tell you I achieved the results you see in this thread running it at only 66% power with a burst of 85%.


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## saiko

Thank you very much. Appreciate your input. Because you say 66%-85%, must be about the same wattage, so clearly a win for the spectrum the 600S has.


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## ChrisX

nvm


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## OVT

Yep, keep rubbing it in 
What spray paint are you using?


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## Quagulator

OVT said:


> Yep, keep rubbing it in
> What spray paint are you using?


I'm going with Krylon fusion next time, I used Rust-Oleum on mine currently and it just isn't quite there....


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## ipkiss

voyetra8 said:


> My original light was a 30 watt 24" Current Sat+ PRO, which claimed "100+ PAR at 12" substrate level". While it grew HC with ease, - I dont think it was anywhere close to 100. I'd say it's a medium light at best.
> 
> The Twinstar 600s is 45 watt, and while I dont have PAR data (real or claimed), I can tell you I achieved the results you see in this thread running it at only 66% power with a burst of 85%.





OVT said:


> Yep, keep rubbing it in
> What spray paint are you using?



@voyetra8, thanks for running this experiment and @OVT, thanks for your thread too showing the shortcomings of the Current lights. @OVT, does that mean you're going to buy one of these twinstar branded "cans of spray paint" too?  I'm going to seriously have to rethink my current (hah! pun!) double strip as well if you both jump ship! Now if only you can get multichannel control.. but then again, that would ruin the point of having the "right spectrum" I guess.


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## Wobblebonk

Heh I tried to go to their website for some reason and current usa's website is "suspended". You've put them out of business!


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## OVT

ipkiss said:


> @voyetra8, thanks for running this experiment and @OVT, thanks for your thread too showing the shortcomings of the Current lights. @OVT, does that mean you're going to buy one of these twinstar branded "cans of spray paint" too?  I'm going to seriously have to rethink my current (hah! pun!) double strip as well if you both jump ship! Now if only you can get multichannel control.. but then again, that would ruin the point of having the "right spectrum" I guess.


 @ipkiss: nah, I am not giving up yet. At worst, you can see the contrast between mine and @voyetra8 tanks and make your own conclusions. At best, I will do my worst to squeeze the Current USA leds for every photon I paid for. And hey, my tank is not that horrible, one can do a lot worse.


PS: [email protected] Not a good sign when they cannot afford $200 for hosting.


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## voyetra8

OVT said:


> PS: [email protected] Not a good sign when they cannot afford $200 for hosting.




Current CEO to staff: "So if we can sell just _one_ 36" fixture, we can get the website turned back on.... What do you say?"


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## ipkiss

" Got a unit sold, hey boss, It's back! thank goodness for the marine side! These freshwater peeps ain't buying krap! "


I hope they keep competing because they ARE pretty good on the customer service side -- at least in my experience. The LOOP stuff looked promising but they didn't really bring it to the freshwater stuff. No new developments since 2015? for freshwater.  In retrospect, guess for an almost 3 year old unit, @OVT, it's not too shabby. Can't be expected to compete with stuff that's 2 years newer than it. Maybe I'll stick with mine a little longer, as during a particularly good run, I DID get some good coloring out of my set, but I can't recommend people to buy their stuff in 2018 if they don't drop something new! 

They too, are being seduced into the marine side where there's much more money to be made. It's 'merica. Money talks and (everythingelse) walks..


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## OVT

@ipkiss, the lights on my 60P are PLUS, not even PRO models. They must be, what, 5-6 years?


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## RisingSun

voyetra8 said:


> The Twinstar 600s is 45 watt, and while I dont have PAR data (real or claimed), I can tell you I achieved the results you see in this thread running it at only 66% power with a burst of 85%.


Twinstar 600ES is 86 PAR at 12 inches according to https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads...ihiros-led-par-data-the-power-of-light.43178/

600S is 35% stronger than the 600ES comparing their lumen specs. You are running at 66% power so it ends up being about 77 PAR. Seems like a pretty reasonable amount of light.


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## voyetra8

RisingSun said:


> Twinstar 600ES is 86 PAR at 12 inches according to https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads...ihiros-led-par-data-the-power-of-light.43178/
> 
> 
> 
> 600S is 35% stronger than the 600ES comparing their lumen specs. You are running at 66% power so it ends up being about 77 PAR. Seems like a pretty reasonable amount of light.



Hmmm I'm confused... in the thread you linked, it states the 600ES is producing *310 PAR* at 10 inches. Where are you seeing a stated value of 86 at 12"? 

See below: 










*EDIT: Doh! Like an ignorant American, I assumed the measurements were Imperial, not Metric.  Units are in centimeters, not inches!*


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## OVT

Small print: apperently the distances are in cm, not in in.

Therefore, @30 cm = 11.8" -> PAR = 86


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## Wobblebonk

310 par at 10inches 33w would be incredible. Maybe with a cob and narrow optics 😕


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## voyetra8

Macrandra kind of an orange / yellow. 

Worried about increasing light intensity at the moment because I've got some long strong algae starting to show up. I want to eliminate before making any additional moves.


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## voyetra8

4th of July update.

Oddly - rotala rotundafolia growing like a weed but... leggy. 

Rearranged things a bit... Waiting (impatiently) for sawtooth hygro to transition and fill in left side midground. 

Open for suggestions to replace the red flame sword back left corner. 

Added a high-rate CalAqua bubble counter to more accurately track my CO2, as I was pumping 6+ bubbles per sec....


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## OVT

If you want to contrast macrandra in back left, then something bright green and feathery? Like Mayaca? 
Or mix / match Ludwidgia red with Lindernia and move macrandra in front.
@voyetra8 if you see any plants in my tanks that you want, I'll hand deliver them


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## damnmosquitoes

Any updates on the tank?


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## LidijaPN

damnmosquitoes said:


> Any updates on the tank?


.....from 11 years ago? Doubtful


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## damnmosquitoes

LidijaPN said:


> .....from 11 years ago? Doubtful


I think that was the user's join date.

Doubtful I agree, but I can only hope


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## LidijaPN

damnmosquitoes said:


> I think that was the user's join date.
> 
> Doubtful I agree, but I can only hope


Ooh my bad, only 4 years!! They might still have it going!


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