# ChrisX 75g SA Community (slow build)



## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Stand looks REALLY nice!


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

Nice!


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## underH20garden (Dec 19, 2017)

yeah that stands looks sweet. great job!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Great looking start on the stand. Really like working with Maple - much smoother grain than the Oak that I typically use. 
Staining or painting?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Immortal1 said:


> Great looking start on the stand. Really like working with Maple - much smoother grain than the Oak that I typically use.
> Staining or painting?


Will be staining it. I have been planning on a clear/light natural maple finish. It may not even need stain, just acrylic clear coat.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Yep, just a clear finish if the various wood colors match up close enough. Have used stain to even out slightly different wood colors but from what I can see you should not need to do that.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The stand construction is mostly done, next is the canopy.

Still deciding whether to go with a clear poly finish or tung oil. The clear is more modern, but the tung oil will give it some character.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Wow dude... you really took to the woodworking. Did you give up and get some nice stuff?? Might as well... you obviously have some talent. Did you decide on what you may stock?? Are you going to go with a full size reg and tank? Will the Neons be going in here?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> Wow dude... you really took to the woodworking. Did you give up and get some nice stuff?? Might as well... you obviously have some talent. Did you decide on what you may stock?? Are you going to go with a full size reg and tank? Will the Neons be going in here?


Thanks! No, I still barely have any tools. The reason I was able to build this was the $50 DIY table saw I built last fall. All the cuts were made with the table saw. Oh, and a plastic mitre box to cut the edge pieces.

This table was built with all "culled" wood from Home Depot and a discounted sheet of melamine. (The rail is made from a precut MDF shelf) Best thing I did was make the top 4x4' so I can make big cuts and also use it as a work bench.


















Still not sure the inhabitants of tank.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

That is pretty awesome!


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## underH20garden (Dec 19, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> Thanks! No, I still barely have any tools. The reason I was able to build this was the $50 DIY table saw I built last fall. All the cuts were made with the table saw. Oh, and a plastic mitre box to cut the edge pieces.
> 
> This table was built with all "culled" wood from Home Depot and a discounted sheet of melamine. (The rail is made from a precut MDF shelf) Best thing I did was make the top 4x4' so I can make big cuts and also use it as a work bench.
> 
> ...


yeah that DIY table saw is sweet! got the plans just in case I want to build one??


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

underH20garden said:


> yeah that DIY table saw is sweet! got the plans just in case I want to build one??


I just made it up. Have Home Depot cut the melamine board in half. Use one half as the top, then cut the other half into 8" strips that are used as sides for the table and a center support. Go to the throwaway wood bin and get some 2x8s for the legs and cross supports. Bolt these to the sides of the table. 

The rail is just an mdf shelf screwed/glued to a piece of pine at 90*. Use a C-clamp to bolt it to the side of the table. That's it pretty much. Lots of people building DIY table saws on youtube. Lots of people building fancy rail and locking bolt, but the big C-clamp works just fine.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

ChrisX said:


> The stand construction is mostly done, next is the canopy.
> 
> Still deciding whether to go with a clear poly finish or tung oil. The clear is more modern, but the tung oil will give it some character.


Great looking stand!! Guess I will throw my vote in for the tung oil - its all about the character 

Pretty impressed with the DIY table saw as well.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

*Canopy Frame*

They say when you go camping, to leave the campsite nicer than when you found it. I had the same idea with the canopy design...Start with a common design and make it a little nicer.

One of the common designs has a split top where the whole front flips up. I like this because it gives good clearance over the tank for cleaning and maintenance. The thing I never liked about these designs was the visible hinge on top (with a large gap). Instead of using a visible metal hinge, I used dowel pins in the frame. This will also allow me to install stops so the that top can rest in a more vertical position.

I also wanted to keep the frame as light as possible. The frame was made with leftover 2x4s cut into 1" strips. The frame weighs less than a 2x4x8.

The final improvement is that this design doesn't require a front cross beam. I didn't want it to have anything across the front that would reduce clearance.

Next step will be to skin it with maple.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Canopy is taking shape...


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Major construction is done. Can't get any good pictures atm because of overwhelming morning sunlight. Next step is to finish...

Cost of materials:



8x 2x4x8' = 24
2x 1/2" Maple Ply = 80
50' edge banding = 25
32' 2" Maple Board = 44
2x Woodscrews (box) = 10
2x Titebond Glue = 6
Wood Filler = 4
4x Recessed Hinges = 13
2x Door Pulls = 20

$226


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Well done sir! Most would be proud to have that in their living room.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

That looks fantastic!


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Close up pics of the canopy... i wanted it to be simple and elegant. Its not obvious there is a swinging lid.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Before buying the wood for this project, I went to one of the local lumber supply shops and was surprised at the generally poor quality of their wood. All of their hardwood was graded, so if you wanted something nice, you had to pay for it. Their plywood was also nothing special.

The big box stores have notoriously poor quality ply. Most of the pieces have defects, fills, and the vast majority have joined veneers. They have also been picked over by shoppers.

I didn't jump and buy what was immediately available, but I kept my eyes open and occasionally would check a Lowe's or HD if I was in another area. I was lucky to find the ply for this project at an out of area Lowes. The sheets had great A sides, and the B sides were mostly usable with only a few fills. Both sides were complete veneers (no joins).

My impression was that the thinner plys tended to have better appearance, which lends towards building a frame and skinning it. To build a load bearing structure would take 3/4" ply and I never found any that looked good. The project only took shape once I found these ply sheets. It could have easily ended up birch or oak. Finding attractive ply is the trick, its relatively easy to find good hardwood boards and trim to match.

Whole thing needs to be sanded and prepped for finishing. Maple is an interesting wood and has a lot of "flop". Pieces will take a different cast depending on their orientation.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

My mind. It is blown. That's gorgeous!


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## KrypleBerry (May 23, 2017)

Very clean work!


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Phil Edwards said:


> My mind. It is blown. That's gorgeous!



Thanks! I have to fix up the doors some, but overall I'm happy with it.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

*Lift Assist*

The canopy is as light as possible, but the front door ended up pretty heavy. There was a chance that if I dropped the lid while raising or lowering, that it could come crashing down.

To prevent this, I used some pulleys and a spring to provide some lift assistance. The door is much lighter to lift, and if I let go, it will stop without crashing against the frame. I couldn't use standard door pistons because the range of motion of the lid is 145*.

Both sides use the same spring, so the force is equal on both sides and don't need to be adjusted separately.

When I'm finished testing, I will clean up the cables. I need to devise a quieter way to mount the front pulleys than on a threaded bolt. They squeak. 

There are still plenty of ways to mount the lights.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Now that's an overengineered hood. I love it! Are you concerned about rust at all?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Phil Edwards said:


> Now that's an overengineered hood. I love it! Are you concerned about rust at all?


No, the plan is to have a sliding glass top within the canopy. The pulleys are brass and the casing is annodized, so I don't think they would easily rust anyway.

I don't consider this over engineered. This is to save the top from slamming down and breaking the tank. It also lets me prop it up at intermediate positions so I don't have to raise it all the way if I don't want.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Very clever way of solving the problem - I like it.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Immortal1 said:


> Very clever way of solving the problem - I like it.


Ive got a better way to mount the pulleys that I'll try out tomorrow.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Sounds like a good plan - fish don't like squeaky wheels :wink2:


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Much improved canopy lift assist. The canopy can be stopped in any position and there's no danger of it falling.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Nice video Chris - really like how smooth that works.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Immortal1 said:


> Nice video Chris - really like how smooth that works.


Thanks. One of my concerns building this kind of canopy was that the lid would be too heavy/inconvenient for feeding the fish. I considered having another door/port on the front face (decided against for a few reasons), but now with the pulleys, the door is light and can be stopped anywhere. I can open it just enough to slip my hand in and it will stay there.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

You've become quite the craftsman


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Built an enclosed light box that will be supported inside the canopy. 

I decided that with a fully enclosed box, I can add active cooling and control the flow of air across the heat sinks. If the box/frame was open, it would be harder to direct cooling across the heat sinks and the tank itself would need a lid to protect the lights above.

The back panel can be removed, and the glass slid out. The heat sinks will be mounted directly to the lid. This is overbuilt, but I had leftover maple and I couldn't think of an easier way to build an enclosed box with a glass face. Unfortunately it already weighs 12 lbs without the heatsinks.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Pretty cool - look forward to the next step...


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Spraying the stand. Polycrylic over dewaxed shellac.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Really impressed with how the Polycrylic sprays. Everything I read said its kinda difficult to work with but that is not my experience.

Satin finish is really smooth and clear without any brush marks. Dries fast so it was easy to put six thin coats over the weekend. Used one of these mini spray guns with small 3 gal compressor..










My camera absolutely does not do the color justice. It looks like "furniture" not a DIY aquarium stand.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Nice! Spent many a weekend applying finish, sanding, applying, sanding, etc.
Spraying makes a lot more sense!


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Immortal1 said:


> Nice! Spent many a weekend applying finish, sanding, applying, sanding, etc.
> Spraying makes a lot more sense!


I didnt know you could get spray guns that can run from a small compressor, or id have got one years ago. Still have to sand between coats tho.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

WOW!!! That looks FANTASTIC!!! Its too late now, but I feel a little foolish for spending like 2K on the "monteray" stand for my 265. It is no where near that nice. You still want to expose that beauty to dirty fish water LOL? Great job Dude. I love seeing people tackle new challenges and produce something really special.

So... refresh my memory.. pressurized C02 and what fauna in this gorgeous presentation??
I think one or two species of dwarf cichlid with a large school or 2 of something really special would just stop people in their tracks. I love the GBR's and cardinals, but that may not be what you are thinking. Dicrossus filamentossus and Signifers and green neons?? Bloodfins and Apistos? Emporer tetras as a "cichlid like" species and like 50 Ember tetras and 50 Neons?? Don't even get me started on the African tetras... like the copper ones... oh the choices...


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## kamla (Feb 17, 2005)

That canopy is a thing of beauty !!

might i say even sexy !!


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> WOW!!! That looks FANTASTIC!!! Its too late now, but I feel a little foolish for spending like 2K on the "monteray" stand for my 265. It is no where near that nice. You still want to expose that beauty to dirty fish water LOL? Great job Dude. I love seeing people tackle new challenges and produce something really special.
> 
> So... refresh my memory.. pressurized C02 and what fauna in this gorgeous presentation??
> I think one or two species of dwarf cichlid with a large school or 2 of something really special would just stop people in their tracks. I love the GBR's and cardinals, but that may not be what you are thinking. Dicrossus filamentossus and Signifers and green neons?? Bloodfins and Apistos? Emporer tetras as a "cichlid like" species and like 50 Ember tetras and 50 Neons?? Don't even get me started on the African tetras... like the copper ones... oh the choices...


Haha! Thanks! I will probably just transfer the Keyhole Cichlids from my 50g over to this one. 75g has enough space for my current fish and has a large enough footprint for some good aquascaping. I may break down the 50g as I'm not keen on maintaining two largish tanks.

I'm sure the money you spent on the Monteray stand is well worth it. I did an accounting of the material costs for this stand, (which from memory was around $200), but the Polycrylic, Shellac, and spray gun added another $100 to the project. (Finishing supplies cost 1/3rd of the whole project cost!) Granted, $300 is a good deal, but it took an insane amount of time.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ChrisX said:


> I'm sure the money you spent on the Monteray stand is well worth it. I did an accounting of the material costs for this stand, (which from memory was around $200), but the Polycrylic, Shellac, and spray gun added another $100 to the project. (Finishing supplies cost 1/3rd of the whole project cost!) Granted, $300 is a good deal, but it took an insane amount of time.


ChrisX nice work! I love DIY projects like this. My hats off to you for getting it completed, as I know what it takes. 

And yes, there is a trade off. You save money, and customize everything to your liking, but it does take a tremendous amount of time. When I built mine, I think I spent at least two hours studying/deliberating for every hour of actual work. 

When mine was done, it cost me $750.00 in materials (solid oak dimensional lumber). I had a guy visit the house who builds custom cabinets, and he said would charge about 3k to build it in that fashion. It's not the materials, it's the hours and hours of labor.

Once again, well done and looking forward to seeing the tank up and running on it.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Revised Costs:

8x 2x4x8' = 24
2x 1/2" Maple Ply = 80
50' edge banding = 25
32' 2" Maple Board = 44
2x Woodscrews (box) = 10
2x Titebond Glue = 6
Wood Filler = 4
4x Recessed Hinges = 13
2x Door Pulls = 20
Door spring = 4
Large Pulley(x2) = 6
Small Pulley(x2) = 4
Nylon cable = 1
Door stop (x2) = 2
Stainless light brackets = 6
3.5" Poplar project board = 4
Satin Polycrylic, 1g = 48
Zinnser Seal Coat, 1q = 17
Sandpaper Pack (80 - 220)= 6
----------------------------------

$324

With tool costs... DIY table saw, mitre box, and glass cutter, project cost around $400.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Greggz said:


> ChrisX nice work! I love DIY projects like this. My hats off to you for getting it completed, as I know what it takes.
> 
> And yes, there is a trade off. You save money, and customize everything to your liking, but it does take a tremendous amount of time. When I built mine, I think I spent at least two hours studying/deliberating for every hour of actual work.
> 
> ...


I learned a ton about woodworking, so this will pay dividends in future home remodeling projects. However, if I knew how much time it would take I absolutely would have just bought another Petsmart stand. 

Part of the motivation was to make a good home for my Keyhole Cichlids. Tanks like yours inspired me to build something I can be proud of and will enjoy maintaining for the lifetime of the fish. With another 6" of depth, I can make a good aquascape with contrasting groups, and the fish will still have room to swim.

I've already purchased two bags of pool filter sand (I like the white look), but am not sure if I'm going to dirt this one. Experienced scapers are having great luck with just sand and water column ferts. OTH, some of the root feeding stem plants can do quite well with just dirt and CO2. I am thinking that a tank where plants get most of the nutrients from the soil could be easy to maintain. If I'm going with careful EI dosing, then do I really need soil? Different approaches...


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ChrisX said:


> I've already purchased two bags of pool filter sand (I like the white look), but am not sure if I'm going to dirt this one.


Dirt scares me. I already have enough to worry about!:grin2:

But no question some are very successful with it. Maryland Guppy uses it extensively, and he can grow some plants.

I'm sure it will be successful whichever way you go.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Canopy...


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

I love the stand!


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## Aframomum (May 23, 2015)

Well done sir, you truly have a gift for wood working and patience! That is something to be very proud of.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Made some progress on the light box.... Its designed to use modular aluminum heat sinks so I can move them around and experiment with different colors. There is 10" of usable internal space so I should get a good spread. IMO, these modular/linear heat sinks are better than those huge (expensive, heavy) monolithic heat sinks. 

There are two central fans (50cfm) which draw air in through the center and will force air out the side vents(holes). internal volume of the box is 1/2cf, so there will be 100x turnover a minute. Noise should not be a problem because its inside the canopy, and it should also create some turbulence inside the canopy to minimize condensation.

Currently installed 24x 5000K cxa1304, 95 cri. 16,302 lm @ 750mA should be enough. Will be controlled by a TC-421. The plan is to add adjustable RCB color channels once the whites are working.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Time to wire it up...


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Made some progress on the lights. White channels installed and working, next step is to set up dimming with the TC421.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Clean looking DIY install. Curious how bright that setup will be once complete. Was a little surprised when I found out my pair of Radions could generate 160+ PAR at the substrate (definitely NOT going there)


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Immortal1 said:


> Clean looking DIY install. Curious how bright that setup will be once complete. Was a little surprised when I found out my pair of Radions could generate 160+ PAR at the substrate (definitely NOT going there)


24x cree 1304 @ 750mA, ~16,200 lumens. 95cri so not the most efficient. 120*, not lensed. 4x LDD1500L @ 36v, 216 Watts. 

There will be three other color channels adding another 130 Watts, 350 Watt power supply. 

I dont know what PAR that will translate into at 21". I'm guessing not enough to grow the most demanding carpets, but the box has plenty of space for more LEDS.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

TC421, ready for some moddin !


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> TC421, ready for some moddin !



Just for comparison
TC420


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)




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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Light is working and currently undergoing burn-in testing. All four strips of cxa1304s are ganged to a single control channel. In the pics below, only running at 10%.

The setup and wiring is very simple and clean. There are two cables from the back of the light box, a cat5(jack) for the TC421, and a power cable to the power supply, currently connected via banana plugs... Power to the TC421 is supplied over the cat cable.

The TC421 has kinda grown on me. Five fully programmable light channels for $30 is not bad. You DO have to solder directly to the board which is a bit nerve wracking, but with this mod, each channel can be used with meanwell LDDs.

The other four channels will be used for reds, blues, cyan, and (violet? green? warm white? -- still not decided on the channel organization). Next step add the colors.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Immortal1 said:


> Clean looking DIY install. Curious how bright that setup will be once complete. Was a little surprised when I found out my pair of Radions could generate 160+ PAR at the substrate (definitely NOT going there)


Honestly, with 24x cxa1304s, its brighter than any fish tank I've ever seen. Its like there is a sunlight in the ceiling beaming down actual sunlight at high noon.

At this height, for this size tank, 12 might be enough. At 50%, this is HIGH PAR; I can't see myself going any brighter, in fact 30% is still really bright. I think 100% would kill some plants and fish.

Since they are already installed, I may just run them all in parallel, each one at 1500/4 mA. They are currently at 750mA.

I ordered them thinking each one would be 3x as bright as a 3W epi. Lol.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Foam to help distribute weight. Two layers of this is about 3/16". $10 roll. Can be layered to any thickness.

Bump: Test fill. Everything is level.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I know its not common for planted tanks, but i like the "vintage" look. 

Blue!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Interesting


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I dont think i can live with this long term...too blue. do over.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

ChrisX said:


> I dont think i can live with this long term...too blue. do over.


I kind of like blue except it shows algae way too easily...


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Wobblebonk said:


> I kind of like blue except it shows algae way too easily...


I like blue tanks too... but after I painted the tank and had the light on it, I realized it changes the way the room looks. I just couldn't stop thinking of hospital scrubs. This was not a deep blue, but if I ever try a blue background again, it will be closer to white.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Black. Was afraid it would make tank look dark, but these lights are bright!!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Looks great personally much prefer the black.

Now get it filled up and let's see some plants in it!!!


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## Outofwater (Mar 30, 2018)

Awesome build thus far. Great work.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Site is broken for me. Help!


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

It's broken for everyone!!


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> Site is broken for me. Help!


What are you trying to do? There are work arounds for now.. Just manually enter the html tags.








[ximg][/img]
remove x
same with quote /quote


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Is there currently a way to upload attachments to be hosted by TPT?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Well @ChrisX I was going to suggest something but it seems my suggestion is also broken.
It seems I can insert pictures into your thread from TPT upload section, but I can't seem to upload any new pictures to the upload section.
If I go to Facebook, find a picture, and copy the image URL then I can past that picture here as normal.
So, I guess the "quick fix" would be to post all your pictures to Facebook and let them be the host >


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Just uploaded that to my Album.
Tried a second one but got tired of waiting ..

so 50% success.. 
About what I also had in the past w/ various things.
your isp usually has space for stuff..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The tank has been set up for two weeks with (neglected) stems donated from my 50g. Filtration is a SunSun 304b (new) and the SunSun 302b w/ Griggs reactor from my 50g. The tank is still cycling but parameters are "pretty good" as the new filtration works to catch up.

I still don't have a FTS as there was a major algae explosion. Because the tank was just starting out, I was using half doses of EI with the light at 30%. I noticed that the HC japan carpet was doing poorly (was previously floating under light) so I jumped the light up to 80% for a week. Talk about crazy pearling! 

However, a few days later Nitrates were at zero so all the nutrients were removed from the water. I've since moderated the light and am on a "standard" EI dose and WC schedule. I probably should have started this tank with all new fresh plants that didn't already have some algae issues.

I'm really loving the hood design. Its easy to slide the canopy back towards the wall and also slide the light to the rear of the canopy. There is nearly a foot of access and I don't have to break down or remove anything for deep maintenance.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Hopefully you will want another "Bucket of Plants"?
I am overgrown to the extreme!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Looks great!
Are you still considering the red head tapajos for this tank?
I have geophagus in my planted tank as well. They can coexist with some fast growing plants without too much trouble


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I'm going to be honest; the reason I haven't given any photo updates on this tank in a while is because it hasn't turned out as I had hoped. I'm almost ready to throw in the towel.

Originally after setting it up a month ago, there was the understandable cloudiness associated with an uncycled tank, compounded by PFS that I did not rinse. (I didn't rinse it when I set up last time, yet there is more cloudiness in this tank for whatever reason...) Thus my original reason to wait before giving pics.

I moved the old canister filter/griggs reactor over to this tank, and the water parameters are (fortunately) good. The new HW304b is just moving water, probably not doing much at this point until a filter establishes in it's media.

Most of the plants I have moved from the 50g dirt/sand tank are growing equally well/poorly depending on the species, except the AR purple which is growing out larger, denser leaves, although the leaves are crinkled, not smooth like before. I suspect this species is a root feeder and is missing a real substrate.

The Ambulia does the same thing it always does.. Looks good on the outside and "tips" but lower down and in the interior of the cluster, the fine leaves start to brown, I suspect they are carrying algae. When I top them, the growth is halted for a couple weeks, giving algae a foot hold on the lower leaves, then the top start growing and looking good. * Its the same damn viscious cycle with this damn plant. I top, the bottoms get tainted and only the new growth looks good.* Edit: This is the problem I have with almost all of the stem plants. By the time the tops start growing, the bottom is starting to look ugly. I give up.

I thought I had a grasp on things, it looked good for a time, but then there was a BGA outbreak. I had one last summer, I suspect it comes in through the water supply. Unfortunately a treatment with Chemiclean did nothing this time. Everything is still coated in slime. Its in all of my tanks at this point and I feel powerless to stop it.

What is worse, the keyhole family has gotten even more restless. The breeding parents have gotten even more territorial and have claimed the whole 75g tank, attacking the other keyholes. It used to only be while breeding, now its all the time.

Because of BGA and a crashed filter in one of the other tanks, I don't have anywhere to put the fish, so I keep it as densely planted as possible. I need to remove the breeding pair but I have no where to put them.

The DIY light I built is working well, although I should have used 6500K whites instead of 5000K. It looks OK, but too warm for my tastes. With the other problems, wiring in new diodes is not a priority.

Cichlid agression, plus BGA outbreak, plus crashed filter in another tank has got my hands tied. I am considering ripping out all the plants except the super easy ones and doing a rock/wood hardscape with some ez plant accents.

Ive been religiously following EI, tracking parameters, CO2, but I have the feeling that there is something not great about the tap water (kh of 2, pH = 8.1, wtf is going on with that!?) Trying to keep a large planted tank is too much work. Maybe with RO water, pH meter, auto dosing and automated water changes life would be better. I just dont have the time to deal with all the [censored][censored][censored][censored]ing algae.


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

I hear you. That is why I am breaking down my 33 and made my 40 a much simpler tank. I will definitely have plants in all my tanks but in the future I am shying away from stem plants and sticking to things like Crypts, Anubias, Bolbitis, Java fern, Buce etc. Too much bloody work and the BBA outbreaks are frustrating. And annoying when the fish are being a pain as well. 

Try to stick with it though and figure out a new normal that is still satisfying but less work.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

That whole kh -> ph relationship holds true for like distilled/ro water with just kh, many things affect the ph in an aquarium/tap water, for example nitrate. But I suspect the water company is adding something to raise the ph because they don't want acidic water in their pipes?

Or this is a conspiracy from maryland guppy passing off booby trapped plant buckets on you so you need to re-up :/


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Wobblebonk said:


> That whole kh -> ph relationship holds true for like distilled/ro water with just kh, many things affect the ph in an aquarium/tap water, for example nitrate. But I suspect the water company is adding something to raise the ph because they don't want acidic water in their pipes?


There is something "off" about the water. The kH pH relationship doesnt make sense, so obviously there is some kind of buffer in it. Who knows how it affects plant and fish health.

I really don't know how to deal with stem plants. Only after topping and replanting do things look good, by the time things are ready for a trim the bottoms look like junk. There aren't any signs of deficency, growth rate is good once they get established (EI, CSM+B, Equilibrium), its just that they always seem to give up the bottom. Everything is pearling, yet these stems just give up the bottoms.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

Mine also is higher ph out of the tap than it should be, honestly I just measure kh/gh / calcium levels and care about the ph drop. The actual ph I somewhat ignore unless I'm trying to breed neons or some craziness.

I've no idea what to make of BGA in all your tanks... I've actually never had a bad case of bga... of course now having said that, when I go home it will be everywhere.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Wobblebonk said:


> Or this is a conspiracy from maryland guppy passing off booby trapped plant buckets on you so you need to re-up :/


It was a special time release agent, a form of allelopathy, it will just target lower leaves and feed algae! >

My lower light tank suffers lower leaf loss.
It is only 60 PAR @ substrate and shading interferes.

75 PAR and up I see now lower leaf damage unless I leave plants in a bunch or a plug.
@ChrisX I offered to stop by with a PAR meter just to help out another plant enthusiast.

As for the "Bucket O Plants"
Have a few locals (under 15 miles) that when I am trimming look out.
Send out a few messages and if no one wants it I list it on a forum.
$20 bucks for a load of plants and I am not packaging and shipping can be a win.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Maryland Guppy said:


> It was a special time release agent, a form of allelopathy, it will just target lower leaves and feed algae! >
> 
> My lower light tank suffers lower leaf loss.
> It is only 60 PAR @ substrate and shading interferes.
> ...


That bucket of plants you gave me a year ago is still going, no problem with the plants!

I got rid of some plants that i wish I had kept and kept some plants I wish I had gotten rid of. While I make it sound bad, I can think of 5-6 species that are good strong growers. 

I didn't want to bother you for a trim until I had things in order. I'm not avoiding you, just haven't had time.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ChrisX said:


> I'm almost ready to throw in the towel.
> 
> Originally after setting it up a month ago


It would be extremely rare to see a month old tank with perfect plants. 

To me each tank is like a puzzle, and finding the solution takes time and effort. 

It's a marathon not a sprint. 

And if I were you I would want to know the actual PAR of your lights. May or may not be an issue, but at least you would know what you are dealing with.

Good luck and myself and I'm sure many others hope to see you stick with it and succeed.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

ChrisX said:


> That bucket of plants you gave me a year ago is still going, no problem with the plants!
> 
> I didn't want to bother you for a trim until I had things in order. I'm not avoiding you, just haven't had time.


The whole point of my post was the "PAR Meter"
The plants don't matter I'll always have plenty.

Our judgement of light is very poor.
I've offered to test the PAR in the past, maybe it is time?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Maryland Guppy said:


> The whole point of my post was the "PAR Meter"
> The plants don't matter I'll always have plenty.
> 
> Our judgement of light is very poor.
> I've offered to test the PAR in the past, maybe it is time?


I dont know the PAR, but intensity has been lowered a bit and cycle shortened. Based on growth which is roughly equivalent to old tank on its lowest setting, I'd say this is low/med light currently. But the bigger problem is that the water just won't CLEAR UP! 

Part of not wanting to test the par is that the tank is just not ready.

.......



I set up my 75g tank nearly two months ago. I used the HW302 SunSun filter from my old tank with a mature biological filter. Also added another larger HW304 to this tank. The new tank water parameters are pristene. Fish are doing fine.

Tank is high tech planted with pool filter sand. Standard EI dosing, am dealing with much more algae than normal. The cloudiness in the water is whitish, not green.

Prior experience with this brand sand was that it didn't require rinsing, any particulates in the water would be removed with felt filter which I am running.

Also running Purigen to remove any tannins.

Thinking it might be a mini cycle or biological filter problem, I've been running the Uv filter 24/7 for the past five days, no difference. A similar UV filter run on my old tank made the water crystal clear last year.

The only thing that might be causing a problem is that the larger canister is using lava rock as the bio media. This was cleaned prior to using. I figure that anything released by the lava rock would be absorbed by Purigen or removed by the felt filter. So I just dont understand what I'm dealing with...

* Perfect water parameters. Check
* Mature bio in existing canister filter. Check.
* Purigen. Check
* Felt filter. Check
* UV filter run for five days has made no difference. Check

What could this be? I am stumped. Tank just isn't working. Water parameters great, fish healthy, looks like crap.

is it possible that the HD lava rock is releasing insane amounts of iron or some other chemical which is making water cloudy and contributing to algea?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

AFAICT only possibilities
1)Bacteria
2)Diatoms (though not often suspended but a lot of free silicates maybe). Not normal but possible
3)Precipitates or colloidal solids (should be removed/reduced w/ micron filtering)

I'm leaning diatoms.. bact eat like crazy and die..

https://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+8057+30357&pcatid=30357

What do you have to lose? Will remove phosphates.
Sera carries silicate specific but sometimes hard to find (German product).
hmm. more available than it used to be..
https://www.saltwateraquarium.com/s...MIt87S3tH03AIVBilpCh3QLwwpEAkYASABEgKqP_D_BwE

Just because the sand bag is the same doesn't mean its the same..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> AFAICT only possibilities
> 1)Bacteria
> 2)Diatoms (though not often suspended but a lot of free silicates maybe). Not normal but possible
> 3)Precipitates or colloidal solids (should be removed/reduced w/ micron filtering)
> ...


If its a legit bacterial bloom, its been going on for a month at least. Water params have been stable, and UV should be making a dent... but it isn't.

Ive had diatoms before and solved it with Phosguard. This could be diatoms, (doesnt look like it tho) maybe a round of phosguard would help.... I dont think the plants could be doing much worse... suspect I would need to stop dosing my phosphates.

Another possibiliity is that my Purigen is tapped out. Is there a limit to how many times it can be recharged? I think this had been recharged 3-4 times already.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Almost everything has a lifespan..Doubt if 3-4X is it for Purigen though..
Resins have a tendency to , over time, lock things to themselves and become less effective

OK found this:


> Purigen becomes a little less effective (~10%) with each regeneration, but like you said, you should still be able to regenerate it 6-10 times. Of course this depends on your organic load.


https://www.seachem.com/support/forums/forum/general-discussion/1456-how-many-years-can-purigen-last


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I just checked, and the Purigen pouch was nearly black. I've never seen it get full this quickly, I suspect the lava rock is releasing organics? Or is it possible something in EI dry fertz is clogging up the Purigen?

Recharging it, hopefully that will help if not solve the problem.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

You know when I set up the 20 long in my garage I went through the EXACT same thing!! Let it go for 6 weeks, kept getting worse. Did a water change, 2 days later the entire surface is slime. I ended up doing 3 back to back 90% water changes... sucked out every last piece of slime or cloudiness. It's been crystal clear ever since. I also only use crypts, buce, ferns, anubias, moss, and bolbitus in all my tanks.. well except one patch of hygro kompacta. I'm am MUCH happier now. The only problem is getting to the point were you have enough plant mass to stabilize things. Either spend a small fortune or wait it out for a year while juggling tank issues. This is why I no longer sell plants. I'm still looking to snag 1 or 2 more big java fern deals in the for sale section here.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Keyhole cichlids.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

does this mean the cloud cleared?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> does this mean the cloud cleared?


NO, you can see its still pretty cloudy. Its better than it was before the Purigen recharge. I think I may need a new pouch. This is definitely in the 5+ number of recharges, and also the tank is larger so the remaining amount won't be as effective as it was on a smaller tank.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Current FTS:


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ChrisX good to see a picture. It's been a while.

Looks like thing are going well. Lot's of growth there. 

Post some details sometime, curious as to what's been going on.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Greggz said:


> ChrisX good to see a picture. It's been a while.
> 
> Looks like thing are going well. Lot's of growth there.
> 
> Post some details sometime, curious as to what's been going on.


The tank is slowly getting into shape. Water is clear now, I suspect biological filtration is stronger than it was. That should help keep the PAR more consistent.

I've started CO2 earlier in morning so there is more at the beginning of the day. In the larger tank it takes considerably longer to drop.

Also doing more maintenance (manual removal) of algae, hoping that in a few weeks I will have a nice display. As it sits, things are in transition. This picture was not to show off, just to show that the tank is alive and in progress.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ChrisX said:


> The tank is slowly getting into shape. Water is clear now, I suspect biological filtration is stronger than it was. That should help keep the PAR more consistent.
> 
> I've started CO2 earlier in morning so there is more at the beginning of the day. In the larger tank it takes considerably longer to drop.
> 
> Also doing more maintenance (manual removal) of algae, hoping that in a few weeks I will have a nice display. As it sits, things are in transition. This picture was not to show off, just to show that the tank is alive and in progress.


Well it looks like things are moving in the right direction, and that is a good thing. 

I suspect it will get even better over time.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Back to Basics...

Now that the water is clear, I'm more motivated to work on the tank and see if I can make it a nice display.

CO2 - The thread algae I'm getting is usually described as a side effect of low CO2. I've increased flow to 3bps and started it at 4am in order to have pH 6.6 at 10am. I'm using the Griggs reactor with a 302b canister which has a low flow rate

Flow- This tank is set up with low surface exchange in order to build and maintain CO2 levels. There is little surface agitation during daytime. Having watched Dennis Wong's CO2 video, I'm using strategy "B", which is to conserve CO2. My feeling is that best results are obtained with wasteful "A" CO2 strategy, high surface exchange, high CO2 flow rate, but due to the tank's size and the small CO2 reservoir, I need to be mindful of conserving CO2.

Wavemakers- I've installed some wavemakers on a timer and am trying to find some organization that does not cause the stems to lean over. 

Light- Has been lowered to 50%, 7 hours on with a mid-day siesta. Due to the way the TC421 ramps intensity, I believe I was getting somewhere around 9+ hours of lights on previously. I may disable ramping because its hard to quantify the value of light from "in between" periods.

Fish- I removed the parents to a 29g tank because they had become increasingly dominant and their offspring were hiding most of the time. Tank has eight keyhole cichlids grown from fry and two SAEs. I'd like to add some smaller schooling fish, but i want to get the plants sorted first.

Fertz - EI standard dosing, with 50% weekly WC. This is about the best I can do at this point.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

ChrisX said:


> This picture was not to show off, just to show that the tank is alive and in progress.





ChrisX said:


> but i want to get the plants sorted first.


You're allowed to show off.
You've spent lots of time on this project and it looks good!

Offer still stands for testing the PAR.

I'm still overloaded with plants too!


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## Thelongsnail (Dec 2, 2015)

Possibly not my place to comment as someone with so little knowledge & experience but just wanted to agree with the above:



Maryland Guppy said:


> You're allowed to show off.


I've just read the entirety of this journal and am thoroughly impressed by the dedication, skill, and patience put into your set up. It seems to me that this forum hosts some of the absolute best hobbyists and it's easy to constantly compare your own experiences to those seen here, when a lot of people don't seem to post any of their own trials, just their successes.

IMO you've got all the bases covered:

1) Livestock are happy and healthy

2) Plants are getting there - and can always grow back!

3) You've made a fantastic base from which you will continue to build, but it's looking pretty great already


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Thelongsnail said:


> 3) You've made a fantastic base from which you will continue to build, but it's looking pretty great already


Thanks for your kind words.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The tank has primarily two kinds of algae: Thread, and BGA.

Made the decision to dose with Chemiclean. Removed the Purigen from filters and will keep the venturi aeration on 24h until treatment is complete. Normally this only runs at night.

I've been more carefully monitoring CO2 levels. CO2 runs 3bps from 4am-9am (lights on), and 12-1pm, for a total of six hours. According to API CO2 test, pH is 6.6 at lights on and starts to drop to 6.8 lights off. Tap water is around pH 8.1, so this *should* be 30ppm+.

Have been lowering light in 5% increments over the past few days. Its down to 45% and tank is still pearling, although not as vigorously. Based on pearling and CO2 saturation, I think this is "medium light". I know, I know, get a PAR reading...

Besides the *excessive* algae, growth is good. The ambulia is at the top of the tank from the last pic, so its growing 1+"/day.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

ChrisX said:


> I dont know the PAR, but intensity has been lowered a bit and cycle shortened. Based on growth which is roughly equivalent to old tank on its lowest setting, I'd say this is low/med light currently. But the bigger problem is that the water just won't CLEAR UP!
> 
> Part of not wanting to test the par is that the tank is just not ready.
> 
> ...


I'm dealing with something similar. May I ask what dechlorinator you're using?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

RollaPrime said:


> I'm dealing with something similar. May I ask what dechlorinator you're using?


I was using Prime, but recently I've been using API Tap Water Conditioner (was available at store). I don't notice a difference, but.. when I first started using the API product, I used the lower dosing and had a mini cycle. Turns out that my tap water may have chloramines which requires a higher dose.

I didn't see any difference between them from plant/algae growth, but the API product sure smells alot better.

The original lack of clarity in the water was probably a combination of things: immature filter/undissolved organics in water, particulates from new sand and lava rocks, depleted Purigen and tannins from driftwood, and too-low CO2 and too-high light causing extreme algae growth.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

ChrisX said:


> I was using Prime, but recently I've been using API Tap Water Conditioner (was available at store). I don't notice a difference, but.. when I first started using the API product, I used the lower dosing and had a mini cycle. Turns out that my tap water may have chloramines which requires a higher dose.
> 
> I didn't see any difference between them from plant/algae growth, but the API product sure smells alot better.
> 
> The original lack of clarity in the water was probably a combination of things: immature filter/undissolved organics in water, particulates from new sand and lava rocks, depleted Purigen and tannins from driftwood, and too-low CO2 and too-high light causing extreme algae growth.



Might have to look into this as the Prime definitely has a "distinct" odor :surprise:


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

ChrisX said:


> I was using Prime, but recently I've been using API Tap Water Conditioner (was available at store). I don't notice a difference, but.. when I first started using the API product, I used the lower dosing and had a mini cycle. Turns out that my tap water may have chloramines which requires a higher dose.
> 
> I didn't see any difference between them from plant/algae growth, but the API product sure smells alot better.


In my own limited experience I've discovered that prime and the fert I'm using (profito) are causing the cloud/bloom in my aquarium. I overdose prime, 2X the required, amount because my water is quite heavy with chemicals. As frustrating as it is, the good news is that I don't think your bacs are dying off. 



I guess we can find some solace in that.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

RollaPrime said:


> In my own limited experience I've discovered that prime and the fert I'm using (profito) are causing the cloud/bloom in my aquarium. I overdose prime, 2X the required, amount because my water is quite heavy with chemicals. As frustrating as it is, the good news is that I don't think your bacs are dying off.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess we can find some solace in that.


I didn't know Prime could interact with fertz and cause issues. I suppose its possible the API product (not using Prime) is contributing to my cleaner water.

The API product requires similar dosing as Prime (may actually be less) so its cost equivalent, and is SURE DOES SMELL ALOT BETTER.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Immortal1 said:


> Might have to look into this as the Prime definitely has a "distinct" odor :surprise:


Sodium thiosulphate stinks just be glad you are not using sodium metabisulphite, it is worse.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> I've been more carefully monitoring CO2 levels. CO2 runs 3bps from 4am-9am (lights on), and 12-1pm, for a total of six hours. According to *API CO2 test*, pH is 6.6 at lights on and starts to drop to 6.8 lights off. Tap water is around pH 8.1, so this *should* be 30ppm+.


I think you mean API pH test? If so, I highly recommend a pH pen. 

3bps on a 75 gallon sounds incredibly low. Like next to nothing low. For reference, on my 72 gal the "bubbles" were a constant stream that looked more like a violent tornado. You say your plants are pearling, so maybe I'm wrong, but 3bps on a 75 gal just seems like a major red flag to me. 




Immortal1 said:


> Might have to look into this as the Prime definitely has a "distinct" odor :surprise:


Have you tried using Seachem Safe? It's just a powdered form of Prime. I use it and don't notice a smell


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

MCFC said:


> I think you mean API pH test? If so, I highly recommend a pH pen.
> 
> 3bps on a 75 gallon sounds incredibly low. Like next to nothing low. For reference, on my 72 gal the "bubbles" were a constant stream that looked more like a violent tornado. You say your plants are pearling, so maybe I'm wrong, but 3bps on a 75 gal just seems like a major red flag to me.


Yeah, I meant pH test.

It takes 4-5 hours for the CO2 to build, but there is almost no surface agitation and once it drops from 8.1 to 6.6 and then the lights go on, it stays there through the day. But that's not to say that I'm confident i have 30ppm+ CO2. I'm just going on what the liquid test and the drop checker say.

There is tons of pearling, like a forest of bubbles, but I have been turning down the lights to put on the brakes.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> I'm just going on what the liquid test and the drop checker say.



I’ve found these to be the two most inaccurate ways to measure CO2. Any issues in the tank and this is where I’d look first. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

MCFC said:


> I’ve found these to be the two most inaccurate ways to measure CO2. Any issues in the tank and this is where I’d look first.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm going to give my new CO2 delivery plan a chance to work before I assume anything is wrong. Its starting five hours before lights on (instead of just two). I made an assumption that pH of 7 was "good enough" for lights on, now I'm waiting for the full drop. I've also decreased lighting so hopefully together that will cause the tank to turn around.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Set up some new lighting programs so I can more easily adjust lighting from the controller.

As I turn down the lighting 5% each day, I'm still getting pearling at 40%, even though the tank isn't that bright. 

I'm now of the opinion that the red and blue diodes are actually contributing to PAR, not just changing the "look".

The TC-421 software is not great, but you can make copies of the individual programs in the file system and import them into the set of programs that are uploaded to the device. YOu can then cycle through the uploaded programs on the device. I have programs ranging from 10%-100%.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I believe a large part of the algae problem has been low flow in the tank. There is a back corner with thick jungle val that is home to the cichlids when they get afraid; they can literally become invisible in there, so I haven't wanted to remove it. Unfortunately, there is a large area of stagnant water. What I realized is that stagnant water anywhere in the tank is a breeding ground for algae, which then propagates to the rest of the tank. 

Unfortunately, the SunSun filters have relatively low flow so I have to use other means.

To hopefully solve this, I've added a wavemaker in one back corner (with the val), and have installed a solenoid on the venturi line of the UV sterilizer in the other back corner so I can run it 24/7. This solenoid allows me to run the corner filter all the time, but only at night does the extra aeration occur.

This is a bit of a band aid. Its a unique challenge to support a largish group of cichlids in a planted tank. They have territorial and terrain requirements, and because they prefer flake food, I can't just blast the tank with the highest flow rates (or else all the flake would end up in the filters). 

I still haven't figured out what to do with the front left corner of the tank. To get more flow there will probably require some rerouting of the canister in/out flow.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Added a 6500K channel to my light box. Current contents:

24x cxa1304 5000K 95cri (2x 1500mA LDD-L @ 32v)
12x cxa1304 6500K 80cri (2x 1500mA LDD-L @ 32v)
18x 3w Blue Epiled (1200mA LDD-L)
26x 3w Deep Red Epiled (1200mA LDD-L)
10x 3w Green Epiled (1200mA LDD-L)

The new 6500K leds are getting the same wattage as the 5000Ks even though there are half as many banks. These leds are more efficient than the high CRI parts so i suspect each channel has similar PAR. 

There hasn't been a single failure since setting up the box this past spring. Arctic alumina thermal adhesive and direct mounting the epileds seems to be the ticket.

CXA1304a are "ideal" for aquarium light.. They have good distribution, but are large enough so that the project does not become a wiring nightmare.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

FTS with the 6500Ks. A bit too cold for my tastes. If I had to choose between just the 6500ks or 5000ks, I would def choose the 5000Ks. 

The RGB blue channel is probably set too high for just the 6500ks alone. Hopefully I can find the right balance. Its getting closer. The 6500ks add that LED "brightness" that I was seeking. I may be able to combine both white channels into one, leaving the last channel for the UV/violets that will help imitate the tube look.

Aquascaping is just transitional. I'm working on finding a balance without algae. The extra flow from the wavemaker seems to help although I want to reroute the canisers in a cross pattern to get more flow in the left rear. The right side of the tank is relatively algae free, the problem spots are on the left and I believe they are flow related.

I separated a ton of buce and have it randomly tied to rocks in the front corners of the tank. NOT an aquascaping masterpiece!


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

If you are going for that magenta type tube look "theory" has it you should add like 10/10 410-ish/620-ish... 
Adding just deeper blue/violets will not give it the "kick" you are looking for..

Again theoretically speaking..

you could do a line of the "full spectrum" (20) diodes..but wouldn't add the deeper "blues" you probably want.
Will knock you off the K temp track though..

though substituting these for your blues (replace w/ full spectrum) would work too..8700k 86CRI but again .. theoretical..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> If you are going for that magenta type tube look "theory" has it you should add like 10/10 410-ish/620-ish...
> Adding just deeper blue/violets will not give it the "kick" you are looking for..
> 
> Again theoretically speaking..
> ...


I bought some UV/violets last year that I never installed. I think they are 410s. I would use those. I also have deep blues.

If it turns out the whites can be used in equal proportion, I can just link those channels and I would have a channel free for supplemental colors. I dont have a burning desire to do it, just that I could do it. I personally think the tank will benefit more from standard reds.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Kind of the benefit of the "full spectrum" chips.. Blue (royal blue) w/ phosphor converted red so it smears the red spectrum................


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Kind of the benefit of the "full spectrum" chips.. Blue (royal blue) w/ phosphor converted red so it smears the red spectrum................



IMO, when it comes down to it, having accurate control of the red spectrum(s) would be great. As you say, a chip with a broad red...

Working on the light box is not exactly my favorite thing, so while I may propose changes, they are slow in coming. I'm just happy nothing has failed. 

The light box design is actually pretty good, I can slide it back for tank maintenance or remove it easily. There is a power cord, and a cat plugin jack for attaching the TC421, that's it.

I remember seeing some uber-DIY light designs on this forum where the guy put all the drivers and power supply in (essentially) a server rack, with extensive wire runs to a heavy "monster" heat sink (quoted that he couldn't lift it himself). That makes me shudder to think... How much we have learned in these forums. In no small part thanks to you.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Slowly winning the war against algae. I spent some time with the RGBW color balance and I really like the way the tank is looking. However, these tablet photos don't do justice to the colors in the tank. The tank has plenty of red, pink, and orange, but the photo is completely washed out with a blue cast. 

Will need to up my photography game.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

There are four white balance settings on my camera. The "daylight" setting is closest to reality, although the picture looks more yellowish/brownish than reality.

I suspect getting great tank pics is more about photography than the actual lighting. I now understand the rabbit hole @Immortal1 has gone down in his thread; testing different light and camera settings.

Its impossible to convey the look of your tank lights if the camera can't accurately depict.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Agreed, can be very frustrating trying to find a camera setting that correctly shows what your eyes see. Then to add to the frustration, the picture you just took looks perfect on your phone / camera display, then you upload it and finally see it on your computer and it looks like poo again. AHHHHHhhhhhhh

For some reason I seem to have better luck with doing videos of the tank. Atleast what I see thru YouTube looks a lot more like what I see in person.

As for your last 2 posted pics - the first one looks pretty washed out. In looking at the wood stand (not the tank) there is a very noticeable difference with the second pic looking more like what I would assume the finished wood would look like.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Immortal1 said:


> Agreed, can be very frustrating trying to find a camera setting that correctly shows what your eyes see. Then to add to the frustration, the picture you just took looks perfect on your phone / camera display, then you upload it and finally see it on your computer and it looks like poo again. AHHHHHhhhhhhh
> 
> For some reason I seem to have better luck with doing videos of the tank. Atleast what I see thru YouTube looks a lot more like what I see in person.
> 
> As for your last 2 posted pics - the first one looks pretty washed out. In looking at the wood stand (not the tank) there is a very noticeable difference with the second pic looking more like what I would assume the finished wood would look like.


The reality is somewhere between the two. The stand actually looks more light like the first pic, but the tank contents are closer to reality in the second pic. The problem with the second pic, while the fish (yellow) are showing correctly, the overall look is brownish and darker than it looks in the room.

I wonder if LEDs, with their narrow band color channels are "tricking" the camera sensors, making it more difficult to get accurate colors? In room, the tank looks like fluorescent builds I have seen, and I'm quite happy with it... until I take a picture of it.

Kinda defeats the purpose of an online blog if you can't post pleasing pictures of your tank.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Immortal1 said:


> Agreed, can be very frustrating trying to find a camera setting that correctly shows what your eyes see. Then to add to the frustration, the picture you just took looks perfect on your phone / camera display, then you upload it and finally see it on your computer and it looks like poo again. AHHHHHhhhhhhh



It's generally your monitor profile "adjusting" the image..
This whole train is really tricky.. From camera settings on and there is really a whole bunch of variables out of your control for the most part...


you can start w/ calibrating your monitor.. win 10 has a fairly easy to use program for it.. barring buying anything.
go to:
"settings" 
find:
"calibrate display colors"
Of course you can start down the rabbit hole here:
LCD monitor test images


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

jeffkrol said:


> It's generally your monitor profile "adjusting" the image..
> This whole train is really tricky.. From camera settings on and there is really a whole bunch of variables out of your control for the most part...
> 
> 
> ...



Hmm, very interesting. On my work computer I have an Intel HD Graphics Control Panel - lots of variables (more than I knew). The LCD monitor test images looks very interesting. Will have to see what develops when I get back home. 

Tahnk-you Jeff


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

More than anyone needs to know.. 

Digital Photography - Marcel Patek: LCD Displays - liquid crystals - gamut - phosphors - polarization


That's just for monitors.. now cameras.....

Before and after the "magic" occurs.
Averaging the response in a cluster of pixels to come to a value of the center pixel.. Repeat till all are averaged.. 








https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3495861
RGBGRGBG pixels are interpolated to create the "colors".
Note that due to inherent silicon sensitivity the color signals are multiplied to insure true representation..
i.e a red "signal" needs to be multiplied by like 1.5 in order to have a signal close to what a green pixel would have picked up.
those multipliers are used to also set white balance..
see table:
https://stephenstuff.wordpress.com/2014/01/05/an-introduction-to-digital-white-balance/ 
https://stephenstuff.wordpress.com/2014/01/05/white-balance-in-rawtherapee/


> The spectral sensitivities of digital cameras are generally optimised for daylight, but notice the daylight WB boosts the R and B channels relative to G. The camera native response actually has a strong green cast. This can be demonstrated by processing an image in with all WB multipliers set to 1 or by setting a Unitary WB in the camera. Human colour vision is similarly more sensitive to greenish-yellow, so do not be alarmed by the camera native response.





Like I said...magic.. or math..


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ChrisX said:


> There are four white balance settings on my camera. The "daylight" setting is closest to reality, although the picture looks more yellowish/brownish than reality.
> 
> I suspect getting great tank pics is more about photography than the actual lighting. I now understand the rabbit hole @Immortal1 has gone down in his thread; testing different light and camera settings.
> 
> Its impossible to convey the look of your tank lights if the camera can't accurately depict.


More importantly, the tank is looking great!:grin2:

Very nice layout and well executed.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Greggz said:


> More importantly, the tank is looking great!:grin2:
> 
> Very nice layout and well executed.


Only if you squint.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

*Green Water LOL?*

After adjusting the RGB balance this past weekend, there was an uptick in algae. I've been on top of CO2, Nitrates/Phosphate tests, filter cleaning, and everything else as I've paid closer attention to the tank. The tank had not even been on a bright setting, quite dark actually.

Today I was unhappy with the "look" so I decided to get a baseline with just 6500K lights. To my surprise, with just the 6500K lights, the tank is GREEN. Not pea soup green, but everything in the tank is transparent green.

I've learned that with red and blue leds, the tank won't even look green; they seem to offset the algae and make the tank look normal. I've probably had green water the better part of the last six months.

Back to the drawing board. From now on I'm just using the 6500K lights. 

This is a gut punch. Despite careful tracking of nutrients, water parameters.. and everything looking good, my DIY light monstrosity, (even though looking much less bright than my previous build) seems designed to grow algae. 

The light quality created by this light is "dark". What I want is a light that is "bright" with very little (relative) nutritive value for plants. There was no reason for an algea bloom besides too much PAR; and the tank was quite dark to begin with.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

add "lime" diodes.. 

Yea w/ no green green is black.. 

some of what you might be seeing is "glare". It has a tendency to wipe out contrast...

It's not getting any window light is it?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> add "lime" diodes..
> 
> Yea w/ no green green is black..
> 
> ...


Theres a period of about 30 minutes early in the morning where it gets some sunlight at a low angle. (right when tank lights fade in.) The CO2 is already 30ppm when this happens.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Well, My 55 gets a pretty good shot in the winter..and surprise.. BBA just showed up en masse..

you may be surprised as to how much PAR you get from even a little bit of real sunlight..

A short time ago I measured 200PAR just from some sunlight..

Sadly I def need to move it but don't really have any free space atm..

Can't blackout the windows in case you are wondering..

Just a thought...


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

jeffkrol said:


> Well, My 55 gets a pretty good shot in the winter..and surprise.. BBA just showed up en masse..
> 
> you may be surprised as to how much PAR you get from even a little bit of real sunlight..
> 
> ...



Not sure about at an angle and thru glass, but when I used my Seneye out in the back yard one time I was getting 1,600 to 1,700 PAR with the sun directly overhead (noon time). Surprisingly it was a fairly low K of around 3,800 if I remember right.
Now, could you get 200 par from direct sunlight thru a window in the morning - would not surprise me at all. (Picture added - hopefully it loads correctly)


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The camera doesn't really show how green it is. When I look through the tank lengthwise, it is quite hazy.

I am running the UV filter and this weekend will do a deep cleaning and replanting.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

UV should help alot


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ChrisX said:


> Only if you squint.


Hey Chris that might be true.

But here's the thing. Clearly you are getting plants to grow. That's an accomplishment right there.

And once you get them growing like that, you have won half the battle. 

Will only get better from here.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I rebuilt my low tech 50g with play sand substrate and easy plants. The lights in this tank are the original DIY Epiled lights I built over a year ago. CO2 Booster and mild fertz.

These neons are the survivors from when the heater in the QT broke and sent temperature to 100*. Only five died that day, most of them recovered. I'm convinced that once neons have established, they are quite hardy. Most of these are "cardinal sized", well over an inch.

One of the survivors has become "superfat" after the heater mishap. I had him in a QT for several weeks, treated with Kanaplex and also Furan-2...then tried a salt bath. I know I should euthanize, but I just can't bring myself to do it. He has survived this past six months and still has color, not sure what to do.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Despite a week of tank deep cleaning, filter maintenance, a couple large WCs, and running the UV filter, the tank was still "murky". Water change into a white bucket showed that the water is brownish (tannins?), despite running a new bag of Purigen (which I know to remove tannins from driftwood, if that was the issue.)

Only other variable is the "lava rock" I've been using as bio media. I've removed it and replaced with ceramic rings taken from another filter. Hopefully this was the problem, hopefully it won't overload the bio.

If the lava rock was leeching iron or other metals into the tank it could contribute to algae, although I would think that disolved minerals would not give the water a brownish cast. I was running a fine felt filter for a long time so I don't believe the color is from particulates, although it could be. Just need to eliminate all the variables.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> Despite a week of tank deep cleaning, filter maintenance, a couple large WCs, and running the UV filter, the tank was still "murky". Water change into a white bucket showed that the water is brownish (tannins?), despite running a new bag of Purigen (which I know to remove tannins from driftwood, if that was the issue.)
> 
> Only other variable is the "lava rock" I've been using as bio media. I've removed it and replaced with ceramic rings taken from another filter. Hopefully this was the problem, hopefully it won't overload the bio.
> 
> If the lava rock was leeching iron or other metals into the tank it could contribute to algae, although I would think that disolved minerals would not give the water a brownish cast. I was running a fine felt filter for a long time so I don't believe the color is from particulates, although it could be. Just need to eliminate all the variables.


Did you wash the lava rock? And what was the source? I use the stuff for a grill, 5lb bags. It is extremely dusty and took a few good rinses. 

I have 5lbs in my substrate and 5 in my second canister. So far I have seen no issues with it, not to say that it is not possible!


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Grobbins48 said:


> Did you wash the lava rock? And what was the source? I use the stuff for a grill, 5lb bags. It is extremely dusty and took a few good rinses.
> 
> I have 5lbs in my substrate and 5 in my second canister. So far I have seen no issues with it, not to say that it is not possible!


I did clean it originally and its been in use for six months through many water changes. This is the stuff you get at HD for grills, etc.

I too think it seems unlikely, but I'm at wit's end... there is something not right with the tank.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> I did clean it originally and its been in use for six months through many water changes. This is the stuff you get at HD for grills, etc.
> 
> I too think it seems unlikely, but I'm at wit's end... there is something not right with the tank.


Yeah I hear you. FWIW that is the same stuff I use as well. 

Hope you figure it out soon!


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Just a quick though I had: do you dose excel or met 14?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)




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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Yesterday I was admiring my stable and healthy Neon population in the 50g.

This morning I noticed they were schooled much tighter than normal. A little investigation found a half eaten neon on the tank bottom. Now there are only 19. I didnt see any aggression, but the Neons were obviously scared.

It seems like Keyhole Cichlids may have a taste for Neons... They have been together without incident since this summer.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> Yesterday I was admiring my stable and healthy Neon population in the 50g.
> 
> This morning I noticed they were schooled much tighter than normal. A little investigation found a half eaten neon on the tank bottom. Now there are only 19. I didnt see any aggression, but the Neons were obviously scared.
> 
> It seems like Keyhole Cichlids may have a taste for Neons... They have been together without incident since this summer.


Oh yeah, typical tetra behavior when predators are added or turn into a predator. They tighten up and hope that they are not the one who is next.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> Oh yeah, typical tetra behavior when predators are added or turn into a predator. They tighten up and hope that they are not the one who is next.


It makes me sad. I'll have to move them if they are this stressed out.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

A few days ago when I cleaned the canister in the 75g, I put some of the lava rock back in the filter (in an attempt to increase bio). Today, the tank has the brownish "sludge" look again that I was dealing with the first six months.

Apparently, the "lava rock" releases something into the water. I am running a felt filter and purigen, so I'm kinda stumped what it is. Maybe its an ultra-fine particulate, or maybe excess iron that feeds algae? 

Another thing I've discovered about the stem plants, with the ambulia and the ludwigia, is that just trimming the top 50% (or more) and keeping the root system in place, the tops will regrow in short order. The lower will always eventually look bad, so there is little benefit to replanting the tops, especially for background plants with something in front. New growth seems to be stronger when the root system is kept in place.

The only real "problem" plant is the AR purple. It grows well enough, but after a couple weeks, leaves get covered in green algae. It did the same thing in my dirted tank. I think the solution may be to increase PAR but shorten light duration. Or maybe increase micros? I have no way to track micros, can only test nitrates and phosphates.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Thinking about adding some more fish to the 75g. Currently have 8 Keyhole Cichlids and two SAE. 

I'd like to get a schooling fish that is not tiny, that prefers upper or middle level.

Possibly some larger shoaling fish like Bleeding Heart tetras that wont nip at the Keyholes.

Also considering another pair of SAE so they can hang together.

Suggestions?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

columbian tetras .. though they hang more in a pack than anything else.. for me..
Never bothered my angel...
not upper level fish though..
mid

Hyphessobrycon columbianus, a Tetra of a Different Color | Details | Articles | TFH Magazine®

Not my tank..but this is about what they do..


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## money88 (Apr 27, 2016)

ChrisX said:


> The stand construction is mostly done, next is the canopy.
> 
> Still deciding whether to go with a clear poly finish or tung oil. The clear is more modern, but the tung oil will give it some character.


Hey really love the tank and stand I am currently working on a stand myself and yours has really given me some inspiration. Question for you, what hinges did you use for your doors on your stand? Currently trying to find ones that will work similar to how you have it setup.

Thanks!


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

money88 said:


> Hey really love the tank and stand I am currently working on a stand myself and yours has really given me some inspiration. Question for you, what hinges did you use for your doors on your stand? Currently trying to find ones that will work similar to how you have it setup.
> 
> Thanks!


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01IY8CTLM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I've finally found a lighting setting that i really like. 70% 6550K, 50% 660nm Deep Red. It has a really bright and colorful look. 

Also decided to start a Pearlweed carpet. 

I had Pearlweed over a year ago but removed it because it was difficult to work with and the fish would uproot it. I found a few strands growing in my HC Japan and decided to collect it and float it under the light. 

This time, it is tied to pieces of lava rock pushed into the sand. Hopefully it will take off.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

New light intensity brings good growth, but also an uptick in algae. pH testing through day leads me to believe CO2 levels are fine, but I've been scratching my head regarding source(s) of algae. I've either kept the lights lower than I would like, deal with slower growth (and less algae), or I raise the lights and deal with the consequences.

I recently moved a dying Amazon Sword from my low tech community tank into this tank to try and save it. (It was originally planted in soil, but when roots were cut and planted in sand, it never really thrived.) Planted in sand, I added a root tab. Legitimate growth has started, but the new leaves are somewhat transparent. A bit of research shows this may be related to a Ca and/or Mg deficiency (root system is not strong so its getting nutrients from water column). I've been dosing Equilibrium, but now suspect I need to increase the amount. I'm operating under the assumption that some of the species which are doing well are depleting the water of nutrients, or they just require less. 

Close examination of the AR also shows that it's leaves are a bit transparent (I think). Have doubled Equilibrium dosing at water change. (It has calcium, magnesium, and iron.) I wonder if having a large swath of Jungle Val may be robbing nutrients from some of the more difficult plants. I notice I rarely see val in high tech tanks.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

*FTS Moonlight*

Combination of blue and green low intensity.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

ChrisX said:


> Combination of blue and green low intensity.



Wow, thats an interesting look! Actually have one of my tanks setup with a 1% green (2 diodes) + 1% red (4 diodes) for the early morning. Something different I guess


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Immortal1 said:


> Wow, thats an interesting look! Actually have one of my tanks setup with a 1% green (2 diodes) + 1% red (4 diodes) for the early morning. Something different I guess


It looks more natural than that, camera only approximates the look. Irl it is more greenish white.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I wish I knew what kind of Ludwigia this was. I have found that the best way to grow it is to trim at about mid tank level, and within a week it will send new reddish growth to the waterline.

I used to trim and replant tops, but it lags out. Keeping the root system in place seems to be the best bet.

Since increasing the light a few days ago, growth is getting more impressive.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

*29g Passive CO2*

I've set up a 29g tank near the display tank. I'm testing a passive CO2 diffuser using an upside down peanut butter jar.

I have installed a "T" on the main tank's CO2 line with a second solenoid, and because the tubing I'm using has a larger ID than the original tubing (and isnt being forced through a check valve), when both lines are open, CO2 is only injected to the second/new line. This way, I can use the double programmable timer to inject CO2 into the main tank or the extension tank depending on which solenoid is open.

It appears that about 1 hour of CO2 at 3bps will fill the peanut butter jar. Over the rest of the day I will test pH to see how much it drops. The reservoir is next to an internal filter which should slowly draw water across the inlet of the jar. TBD if the filter will off gas CO2 faster than it can accumulate.

If this experiment works, I'll build this into another planted tank.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

This works pretty well. Over two hours the pH dropped from 7.8 to 7.2, but then it stabilized at 7.2. Might be of benefit to some plants.

To get a larger drop will probably require a filter with less surface agitation than an HOB. It looks like it will take about 12 hours for the CO2 in the jar to disperse. Not bad for a minimal amount of CO2. An hour of CO2 like this could be supported by my paintball tank for ~ 275 days before refill (assuming no slow leaks).

Instead of using it to grow high tech plants, I think this will allow me to keep a neutral pH for breeding fish. I may have to set the timer to refill the jar twice a day. If the jar is overfilled, I suspect large bubbles would release to the surface without doing anything.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

*New perspectives...*

I had a lengthy discussion with @Maryland Guppy about fertilizers and potentially restarting my 75g with a soil substrate.

Last week I was looking through old photos of my 50g soil/sand/EI tank which was doing quite well for the first six months (before converting into a keyhole fry growout tank.) I didn't realize how poorly the 75g is doing in comparison.

I said "never again" with soil substrate, but the results of the 50g were undeniable. There were other differences with that tank, namely I kept CO2 on 24/7 with pH stable at 6.7. It turns out that different forms of iron react differently depending on the pH.

Another thing I learned (forgot) was that CSM+B has IRON in it. I thought that Seachem Equilibrium was providing all the Iron and that the "C" stood for copper. Afaict, the "C" stands for "chelated" and includes iron and some other elements. Why couldn't they come up with a name that includes Fe?

Because my tank has lots of fish waste, I've been generally lean dosing EI, but also dosing proportionally between macros and micros....which means I've inadvertantly been dosing LESS iron.

Of the ten or so plant species in my tank, most of them are growing well except for the AR and the Ambulia. Researching Ambulia shows that it has high iron needs. It has puzzled me that sometimes the ambulia group takes off like a rocket and other times the group is dormant with slow growth despite (apparently) identical conditions. Now I suspect a lack of iron is the culprit. When this was growing in soil, it did quite well with EI, either getting enough iron from the plantex or the soil.

With such a large plant group doing poorly, this is a breeding ground for thread algae, which then infests other species. My understanding of thread algae is that the spoors move through the water column and collect into growing threads. Which would explain why they are collecting on plant groups that otherwise seem to be growing very well. I always thought that algae attacked species that were doing poorly, but I suspect the algae gets started on weak/decaying plants and then jumps to other groups.

MDGuppy suggested adding a DPTA form of Fe to my micro mix, which makes perfect sense. As a stop gap, I will return to full dosing the plantex CSM+B (no more proportional lean dosing) and see if the Ambulia starts to take off.

*SO, in summary,* the tank has been doing marginally well except for two prominent groups that it turns out are sensitive to iron. A red plant (AR) and Ambulia. As a result these failing groups breed algae. 

In response to the algae I was lean dosing ferts, which inadvertantly led to less CSM+B and less Fe (I didnt know it was a major source of Iron). This has been causing a thread algae explosion in most of the other groups and especially the carpeting plants, making them difficult to cultivate.

Because the pH is higher (8.0 without CO2), the EDTA forms of iron in Equilibrium and Plantex are less available. In my old 50g tank, the pH was kept constant at 6.7 which meant the same iron dosing regime was more effective. But probably still deficient in iron based on the appearance of the AR.

This also answers the question why going above medium light never seemed to increase growth, but instead increase algae. For instance, ambulia might be growing well for a spell, but increasing light never seemed to make it "take off". Because it has had a deficiency. 

*Armed with this new knowledge, *I will use recommended doses of EI micros (while keeping macros moderately lean) and hopefully find a good source of DPTA to add. I might also return to a 24/7 CO2 schedule in order to make the Plantex more effective. 

For the AR, I am hopeful that I can improve its appearance and based on what I've learned, its no longer surprising why it hasn't been doing well. I may dirt the entire tank or use a shallow dirt pot buried in the sand for the AR group. I will also endeavor to get a PAR reading of my light to see what I'm working with.

To get rid of existing algae, I plan to do a "one two punch" treatment, with the fish moved to another tank so they do not get hurt.

*Hopefully all these things together will help me to turn around this tank.* Some of my early success led to blind spots in my thinking and understanding.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

We are all on a journey and conducting a similar experiment in our tanks.

Along the way we become more scientific, develop alchemist and apothecary skills, venture into chemistry regarding the usage of compounds and different elements, and above all we become aquatic botanists by experiencing the growth habits of our plants.

And we still can't turn Pb into Au! :surprise:

If this ain't a science project I don't know what it is! >>>


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

@ChrisX nice post. 

I wouldn't base your level of success based on AR. Personally I have never had much luck with it, and there are many others as well.

Good luck and I am betting you get it turned around soon. 

Will be following along to see where this goes.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

I love AR, may be my favorite plant from the old tank, but that said it was prone to algae issues even when growing well. It was one of the few plants I regularly had to prune leaves off of because of various issues. In my experience it certainly was a harder plant to keep.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Rush3737 said:


> I love AR, may be my favorite plant from the old tank, but that said it was prone to algae issues even when growing well. It was one of the few plants I regularly had to prune leaves off of because of various issues. In my experience it certainly was a harder plant to keep.


Well, according to dennis wong it is not all that difficult. :surprise: Ive kept it in the tank because I don't have anything else really red, and because its a challenge.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> Thinking about adding some more fish to the 75g. Currently have 8 Keyhole Cichlids and two SAE.
> 
> I'd like to get a schooling fish that is not tiny, that prefers upper or middle level.
> 
> ...



The Bleeding Hearts would work out great for this purpose- not nippers and do swim in the area wanted. And such a beautiful tetra. 

Another option are Congo tetras (_ phenocogrammus_ and _alestoptersius_ sp. )-- they swim in that mid-upper quadrant. I keep them with by geophagus who have long trailing fins and they do not nip at them at all. Get a perfect size as well. But, not South American, obviously.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

@Maryland Guppy came over today and helped with my tank. Besides offering some nice plants, he tested Fe in my water, and also the PAR.

First, the big news. *The iron test showed... 0.0. ZERO. None.* I've been dosing CSM+B, but at my pH the iron (apparently) binds with phosphorus and is unavailable to plants. This is great news as the DTPA 11% Iron I ordered should fix this problem and turn around my tank. Things can only get better.

Second, he tested PAR using his Seneye. My DIY light has five channels although I am currently only using the 6500K whites and Deep Red. My "normal" daylight setting is 70% White, 50% DR. All settings have same ratio of white to deep red. Tests were just at the substrate and reflect the highest par (center). Distance from light to substrate, 21".

Whites channel is 12x cree cxa1304 6500K @ 750ma (parallel on 2x LDD-1500L)
Deep reds are 26x epiled @ 600mA (parallel on 1x LDD-1200L)

*70% = 80 PAR
100% = 150 PAR* (60 PUR, 4500K)

The PAR values at the front/sides of the tank were very close to the center. I found that having the light fixture mounted slightly forward gave significantly more PAR at the substrate, probably because the rear row of COBs was getting blocked by stem plants. Its probably best for my tank to keep the fixture slightly forward to give more PAR to carpets and less to the background stems.

With all channels on 100% (6500K, 5000K, Deep Red, Blue, Green). *PAR was 325 at substrate*. This involves 4x LDD-1500L, 3x 1200L @ 30V.

But thats not all. Due to the low mounting over the water, the glass was covered with a whitish haze, at least a month's worth of crud. So I cleaned the glass...

*70% setting (Clean glass) = 100 PAR. * 

The dirty, hazy glass reduced output by 20%. This could have a significant impact on growth, so I must endeavor to keep it clean (or allow it to get dirty and run at a higher setting!)

We didn't test max PAR of all channels with clean glass, *but it likely is ~ 400 PAR. 
*
Overall I'm very pleased with the PAR performance and distribution of the light. I would like to add a 10K channel so I can tune the K temperature (for aesthetics), and I'm intrigued by the "full spectrum" grow leds that MDGuppy uses on his tank which raise PUR.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

Glad to hear you got your system checked out! I've been sick all week and haven't had a chance to test out my PAR with my new Seneye meter. Hopefully I'll be able to get mine checked out and tuned this week. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

How cool is that!

Not many Doctors make house calls anymore.:grin2:

And wow you have the ability to have a LOT of light. Knowing those PAR values should be very helpful to you. Hope the iron turns things around. I'll be staying tuned.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Really great experience that you shared with us! Looking forward to seeing what can progress from the new information!


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Grobbins48 said:


> Really great experience that you shared with us! Looking forward to seeing what can progress from the new information!


I thought the PAR information would be useful to anyone building a DIY light with Meanwell LDD drivers.

I was also a bit surprised that increasing the PWM from 70% to 100%, the increase in light was not linear. IDK if that is a characteristic of the leds, the drivers, or the controller.

Maybe there can be an LDD Watt/gallon shorthand for DIY lights? It appears that 4.2a * 30v = 120 LDD Watts = 150+ PAR on a 75g tank.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Greggz said:


> Not many Doctors make house calls anymore.:grin2:


Where is the full tank shot with plant additions??? >


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Where is the full tank shot with plant additions??? >


Soon!

I was making a fertz and maintenance spreadsheet and using RB, may have found a major K deficiency. I was dosing 1/16 tsp k2so4, and RB calls for 1/2 + 1/4. It gets some K from kno3, but ive been half dosing that so very little K in my tank...and 100 PAR...might explain a few things.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Last night I created a maintenance log for this tank. This forced me to take a closer look at my fertilizer dosing. 

Because my KH2PO4 and K2SO4 were mixed in the same solution, when I was "half dosing" EI, I was not able to increase K without also increasing PO4 and upsetting the N/P ratio. I wasn't increasing Phosphorus, so it seems the tank has been running with a severe K deficiency.

In my first planted tank, things were working great with this lazy dosing.. because dirt. 

ChrisX 75g Maintenance Log


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

New plants, need help identifying. Hoping to rehab the older plants. 

Its amazing what can happen when you lose focus. To keep nitrates in the 20ppm range, I was half dosing EI, but never compensated K, so plants were getting a tiny ammount of potassium. Also, because of pH, tank effectively had zero iron. 

Will trim and replant AR and Hygro Siamensis when new tops have grown in. When the newer samples have generated some mass I can use them in aquascaping.

A
B
C
D -Single tiny stem with red leaf. ?
E
F
G
H
I - Pearlweed
J
K
L


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

A ammannia senegalensis
B bacopa monerii
C limnophilla aromatica mini
D legendra meeboldii red
E ludwigia sp red
F rotala magenta
G hydrocoytle sp japan
H hydrocoytle sibthorpiodes
J didiplis diandra
K ludwigia brevipes
L limnophilla aromatica


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Maryland Guppy said:


> A ammannia senegalensis
> B bacopa monerii
> C limnophilla aromatica mini
> D legendra meeboldii red
> ...


Thanks! Do you know what kind of ludwigia that is in the background? (The one I had previously?)


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Repens variant I'm sure.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

UPDATE 5.7

These are not "brag" shots, these are close ups of some of the problems to get feedback. Dosing strategy in signature.

Over the past week I've been picking off diseased leaves and the tank is getting cleaner. 

The Good:

Pearlweed "carpet" is spreading and looking better. In a few weeks may be able to trim to make it look more uniform. There is enough light for sideways (ish) growth. Tank is on the right track.
Ambulia is showing new healthy growth at the bottom.
Most of the new plants are showing small growth and are algae free.
Lots of pearling mid and late day.

The Bad:

New Hygro Siamensis leaves are still wrinkled. Thinking calcium deficiency?
New Amazon Sword leaves are very pale (veins visible). They color up over a week or two. Calcium or iron?
Old Ludwigia Repens and AR leaves still algae prone. 
Phosphates are high 3+ and there is more glass algae than normal. Reduce phosphates.
New Ludwigia Super Red not showing new growth. Short stem tips were probably much closer to light prior.

Summary:

Low calcium and/or iron? Tap water KH=2, no guarantee thats calcium. Have upped Equilibrium to 1tsp/10, will increase even more. Need a better source of calcium so I can get off Seachem products.
Increase DTPA iron dosing, what can it hurt?
Lower phosphate dosing to reduce uptick in glass algae.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

*Pelletized Lime*

Picked up some of this at Home Depot. It may have use in the aquarium, if not it will help combat the acidic soil and some areas of the lawn that have been accosted by moss.

This is a "local" NE brand of lime, with detailed analysis on the bag. Anyone see anything that raises alarm for tank use?

The MgCO3 might also provide Magnesium.

I'm going to run a small test to see how well it dissolves and how much it raises KH.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I don't think I can use this.. because of CaO.... Too bad.

Anyway.. just to test, put two teaspoons in 5g bucket tap water. KH=2, GH=4, pH = 8.2. Will wait til (if) it dissolves and test again.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> I don't think I can use this.. because of CaO.... Too bad.
> 
> Anyway.. just to test, put two teaspoons in 5g bucket tap water. KH=2, GH=4, pH = 8.2. Will wait til (if) it dissolves and test again.


The pellets "dissolve" quickly into a fine particulate, but they don't actually dissolve into the water. This morning there was a fine particle layer on bottom of bucket.

KH=2, GH=4. Neither changed.

CaCO3 apparently doesn't dissolve readily unless there is CO2. These pellets are probably no different than a powder form of CaCO3. Better than solid chunks of limestone or shell, but still at the mercy of the pH.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> The pellets "dissolve" quickly into a fine particulate, but they don't actually dissolve into the water. This morning there was a fine particle layer on bottom of bucket.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've noticed my RO storage tank has a fine later on the bottom as well. After seeing @Greggz talk about his high CO2 well water and it helping to dissolve the calcium and seeing the film at the bottom of my reservoir has me wondering about either injecting CO2 for a day to dissolve or use some pool acid to drop the pH level first and then drop in the calcium. I might have to do an experiment myself in a 5g bucket with the acid. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Just jumping in a bit..
Make CaCl w/ limestone/coral sand and Muratic acid
Very enrgetic though..

https://www.cuteness.com/article/make-calcium-chloride

or buy it..
https://www.makeyourown.buzz/calciu...MIn9Ciuoyv4AIVh4qzCh0zrgCSEAkYAiABEgLhnvD_BwE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_chloride


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

chayos00 said:


> I've noticed my RO storage tank has a fine later on the bottom as well. After seeing @Greggz talk about his high CO2 well water and it helping to dissolve the calcium and seeing the film at the bottom of my reservoir has me wondering about either injecting CO2 for a day to dissolve or use some pool acid to drop the pH level first and then drop in the calcium. I might have to do an experiment myself in a 5g bucket with the acid.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I read that CaCO3 dissolves more readily in lower pH and also with free CO2. My tap pH is 8.2. If you have a more neutral pH it might actually do something useful for you. This pelletized lime might make a good soil amendment for high pH tanks. 

Have you used a product like this with livestock? I'm not ready to experiment in my CO2 / display tank because it might have other contaminants.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

*Pearlweed Carpet*

Since adding iron/potassium a couple weeks ago, the Pearlweed has really taken off. The tank generally has an algae/cholorosis problem, but things are growing.

We measured PAR for these lights, but I've come to realize that the Seneye probably doesn't register the 660nm deep red. Which means the PAR is likely higher than I thought. MDGuppy did say his tank didn't pearl like this, and that was before I increased fertz. It looks absolutely carbonated. 

Thoughts moving forward:

1) Keep dosing iron, it seems to be working.

2) Lower the light a bit. If 70% is 100++ PAR, I don't need that much. It still pearls like crazy on 60%. No one else I know has this many Deep Red diodes, I will just have to assume they are a significant source of PAR.

3) Stop dosing Equilibrium. Besides the traces, I learned it is a very significant form of K which is also added through EI. 

My tap GH=4 should have some Calcium. It would be great if there was enough calcium in the tap water so that I could find the right Ca/Mg balance by dosing Epsom Salt. Now I see why people who are "serious" use RO water.

4) Consider building an RO system. Most of the plant profiles prefer neutral or acidic pH, my tank lives in the 6.8-8.2 range. If I could lower the average by .5 I bet plants like the AR would do better.


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## kgbudge (Feb 8, 2019)

The magnesium to calcium ratio seems a bit high. If what I've read is correct, this should not exceed 1:3.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

kgbudge said:


> The magnesium to calcium ratio seems a bit high. If what I've read is correct, this should not exceed 1:3.


I don't know what the ratio is. Conventional wisdom is that tap water with some GH will have "some" calcium. 

The point was that by varying the amount of MgSO4, I can adjust the ratio.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> I read that CaCO3 dissolves more readily in lower pH and also with free CO2. My tap pH is 8.2. If you have a more neutral pH it might actually do something useful for you. This pelletized lime might make a good soil amendment for high pH tanks.
> 
> Have you used a product like this with livestock? I'm not ready to experiment in my CO2 / display tank because it might have other contaminants.


I haven't done any experimenting with anything yet. I would first test ANYTHING unusual in a 5g bucket with just water to measure what it would do. I would be testing it with a starting RO water setup to see what I get the chemicals to do. The aspect of CO2, I would do again NOT in my fish tank, but a bucket of water.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

kgbudge said:


> The magnesium to calcium ratio seems a bit high. If what I've read is correct, this should not exceed 1:3.


Says who?? Every tank is different. 

I'm experimenting at 1:2 and so far looks promising.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

@Greggz has sometimes wondered if my CO2 is low based on how little I use. Drop checker in the morning right after lights on. Its green, trending yellow. IDK how this could not be enough CO2 unless having high pH changes the relationship.

There is definitely a problem with chlorosis in my tank. New HC Japan which was bright and beautiful.. the leaves have shrunken and darkened. This suggests to me a mobile nutrient.

(Other things are growing like gangbusters and there is a ton of pearling.)

According to: Aquatic plant deficiency - Aquarium-fertilizer.com
*
Mobile nutrients: Nitrogen (N), phosphorus (P), potassium (K), magnesium (Mg), molybdenum (Mo)

Immobile nutrients: Iron (Fe), calcium (Ca), sulfur (S), boron (B)*

Nitrogen tests 30 this morning. Phosphates test at 3ppm. It been suggested I overdosed potassium, although based on my calculations its high side of normal. Certainly it is not deficient. I've been dosing Epsom Salt for Magnesium (.5tsp/10g) which is 5ppm weekly. On top of whatever is in large Equilibrium dose and tap water. Molbdenum is coming from CSM+B, normal 3x weekly EI doses.

I'll be honest I'm completely stumped. Every mobile nutrient is accounted for, probably in excess, yet there is definite chlorosis happening in the tank. CO2 based on all measurements is in the green.

Its possible there is an excess of something causing problems with something else, but until recently this tank has been *lean*, and I've had similar problems.

I'm at the point of giving up on a "high tech" tank. Its probably just that my tap pH is too high for many of the species. Probably time to turn down the lights and just focus on easy plants. Theres something not right with the tap water.

Come to think of it, I haven't seen a high pH tank on this forum thrive with a bunch of difficult species. They are either using RO water or the local tap is neutral.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ChrisX said:


> @Greggz has sometimes wondered if my CO2 is low based on how little I use. Drop checker in the morning right after lights on. Its green, trending yellow. IDK how this could not be enough CO2 unless having high pH changes the relationship.


Chris I don't know if I would trust the drop checker. Dennis Wong says to throw them away.

IMO you've got something unusual going on with your posted KH of 2 and pH of 8.2. KH and pH have a relationship. In general, things that raise pH also raise KH, and things that lower pH also lower KH. 










And here are a just a few KH/pH numbers from members here on the board........










I've never seen anyone get readings anywhere near your KH 2 pH 8.2. Low KH water should have pH readings in the low 7's. Before I went to RO, I had a pH of 8.2......but my KH was 18. Which leads me to believe either your measurements are wrong, or you have something very unusual going on there. Either way, I would want to figure out why.

What are you using to measure pH?? KH?? Still using API liquid test? I can tell you from experience that many times the value is not even close to that measured with a calibrated pH probe. And I would never base my pH drop off of an API reading. It's simply not precise enough for your purposes.

And I've said before I could be completely wrong. But almost every symptom you describe could easily be explained by CO2 not being optimized. And yes, your 3 bps seems extremely low compared to every single other tank your size. I can point out several 20G tanks that have a steady stream of CO2. 

You have a high light tank, and high light drives demand for CO2. Even being off a small degree can have negative consequences. 

If it were me, I would be focusing on CO2 before anything else. Like I've said before, if for any reason it's not right, making changes to ferts will not solve anything.

Good luck, and I promise not mention it again.:grin2:


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

Hello at ChrisX, I was experiencing the same issues as you. My fert regiment practically the same as yours. I was dosing the equilibrium with epsom, even tried more calcium. Finally I stopped dosing equilibrium and calcium. Now am am only dosing epsom. And the chlorosis, and other mg/cal issues has resided. I dose approximately 7.5ppm or 2tsp of epsom salt. My calcium according to api kit is around 60-80ppm and out of tap dgh 10-11. I hope this helps.

And I agree with @Greggz, go with a ph probe to test ph, before and after co2.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

If you don't have a decent pH stick, check this out. I've been using it for a year now with good results. Just make sure to pick up some extra 4.0 and 7.0 solution. As a rule to go by calibrate the meter before every use that day. I find mine can be off by a bit, 0.1 buy better to have spot on numbers than not. 

Apera Instruments AI209 PH20 Value Waterproof pH Pocket Tester, ±0.1 pH Accuracy, 0-14.0 pH Range, Complete Kit https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01ENFOHN8

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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

Btw I use to be anti testing and fert measuring in ppms. Now I test everything ph, parameters tap and in tank, par and these guys even got me using Rotallabutterfly.lol. I gotta say although my tank is not perfectly where I would like it to be. It is slowly getting better.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Greggz said:


> Chris I don't know if I would trust the drop checker. Dennis Wong says to throw them away.
> 
> IMO you've got something unusual going on with your posted KH of 2 and pH of 8.2. KH and pH have a relationship. In general, things that raise pH also raise KH, and things that lower pH also lower KH.
> 
> ...


Its possible. I added the drop checker for a sanity check, and its color changes are completely in line with what I see from API pH tests. 

Nothing I'm seeing from the test kits suggest a problem. For instance when setting up and finding correct flow, I turned on CO2 and tracked pH every hour to see the pH dropping with application of CO2. Drop checker mirrors this but with some lag.

KH test kit responds to addition of Baking soda. Add more, the KH rises expected amount.

The tap water comes at 8.2, KH =2. Idk what else to say other than the water must have a buffer in it. When I've brought this up before, half the people say to "throw out the chart, its meaningless". You are suggesting the opposite, there is something wrong with my test kits/methods and that the KH/PH/CO2 relationship holds.

I get what you are saying, that if the pH was that high, if there was a buffer, the KH would also be higher. 

Lets assume the KH actually is higher than measured (and kit just cant see the reagent they buffered with), that would mean that the level of pH drop would indicate massive 60+ppm of CO2. And that is certainly not the case.

The other possibility is pH is measuring wrong. You are the only one to suggest the API test kit could be grossly incorrect. Lets assume that it is for some reason (even though I've used it hundreds of times, tap water, bottled water, distillled water, and its operation seems correct). If so, why then does the API test kit mirror the drop checker? Are they both wrong in the same way? Would a calibrated pH meter be any different?

I have read in the forums other people with water similar to mine. Are all of us misinformed because we are using the API test kit? Or is there something about water chemistry we don't understand?

I'm going to try increasing CO2 to get on the "yellower side of green" with the drop checker and watch the fish to see they aren't distressed.

*My guess is that when the water pH is high (OR ATYPICAL), a drop of 1.0 (or green on the drop checker) does not represent 30ppm of CO2. That I need more color change or more drop. The "chart" and conventional wisdom only works when there is a normal ph/kh relationship.

*
The other possibility is that macros really are deficient, that because of relatively high traces or micros, the uptake of macros is inhibited in some way. Next week I am going to a full EI with mid week testing to make sure it doesnt get out of hand. Front loaded if you will. To hell with glass algae!


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Here is what I came up with, strategy for next week:

*Keep Equilibrium (Ca,Mg,K) the same. It was suggested I don't need it, but when increasing the dose last week, the Pearlweed carpet really took off. There wasn't much else that could explain this, imo. Everything else was mostly the same. Edit: Reduced Equilibrium to half. ... It has too much K to not interfere with EI dosing.. goal is to eliminate it and find another source of Ca.

* Increase CO2. The drop checker and API pH test show there is alot of CO2. But because of atypical pH/KH relationship in my water, this may not represent 30ppm. I am going to shoot for yellowish/green on the drop checker and monitor fish to make sure they are not distressed. May increase a bit each day to observe. There is already tons of pearling, but many things not growing as fast as expected.

* Increase Macros (Full EI, minus K2SO4) - Today, end week total for nitrates much lower than expected, so possibly using more macros. Will test mid week to make sure macros are not accumulating too much. Will calculate K in Equilibrium and dose less K2SO4.

* Slightly reduce PAR.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

https://articles.extension.org/pages/32302/drinking-water-treatment-ph-adjustment

It is possible your water is soft but has high ph due to sodium hydroxide 


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

mbkemp said:


> https://articles.extension.org/pages/32302/drinking-water-treatment-ph-adjustment
> 
> It is possible your water is soft but has high ph due to sodium hydroxide
> 
> ...


If found this... which has me concerned...

http://www.esc.nsw.gov.au/council-s...er-and-sewer/documents/Southern_Chemicals.pdf

If they are using Sodium Hydroxide as a water softener that raises pH, then apparently it binds with CO2... 

Not a chemist, but what I'm reading has me very concerned. If excess CO2 is converted with NaOH, does that mean my CO2 injection is for naught?

Looks like CO2 binds with NaOH and precipitates Calcium. This would be a very bad thing to have in planted tank water, imo.

This hobby needs a chemist to explain these things. Did not know would need chemistry degree to succeed.

I'm about to give up due to "factors beyond my control."


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

I'd like to thank everyone for making me extremely "Paranoid" about pH readings today! >

So I grab the cheap pH pen and it will not calibrate, no way, no how.
Always says error no matter what I do.
Second oldest cheap pH pen reads some ridiculous number too.

This took me to a re-purposed Foxboro instrument from work.
Not calibrated in 8 months so I tested in solutions and all was good.
Still re-calibrated just because of the paranoia that has been induced. 

After calibration testing included:
Tap @ 7.27
RODI @ 5.09
These were good numbers as far as I am concerned.

Degassed from tank @ 7.3 & 2 hours into photo-period was 5.91
Nice drop of 1.39, I was worried over nothing! :grin2::grin2::grin2:


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

ChrisX I had issues with the API test kit for the high and low pH as one said too high (low pH) and the high said too low. Once getting a pH pen it's so much easier getting an accurate number that's easy to read. Granted my first pH pen was a POS and this one I linked above is much better and had matching decent reviews too. However once I got these pH pens I was able to read my tap water pH and it was about 8.2 if I recall and a kH of 11 and a gH of 13-14. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

*WEEK 7.1 Update.*

Various shots of plants. Some doing better than others.

I have bumped the CO2, pH reads 6.5-6.6 at lights on, which "might" be a drop of 1.6. Drop checker is greenish yellow. Not yellow could still probably dose more. Fish are not quite as animated but neither are they at the surface. The reason I've been hesitant to increase CO2 is livestock health. Will see how this works for a couple weeks.

Performed two B2B 50% water changes. Lowered Equilibrium but did not totally eliminate. I believe I am in the neighborhood of 20ppm K from Equilibrium, which is roughly a weeks worth of potassium front loaded.

Dosing FULL EI (minimal K2SO4) with testing to see that macros don't get out of hand. Fully expecting major glass algae mid week.

I am not dosing any Glut this week, dont want any band aids to hide tank condition. Hoping that increased CO2 will eliminate any thread algae.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Maybe this video can show more than the pics do. There might be more pearling since boosting CO2. Might. This was measured at 100PAR substrate but the Seneye may not be able to register the 660nm diodes. Appreciate suggestions.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Chris I am no expert on this, but the link also says that the dosing creates CaCO3, so it is creating a carbonate, which would in turn raise KH. At least that seems to be what I am reading. 

Have you checked with your water supplier? Maybe they can shed some light.

And like others have said, I hope you keep up the fight. Based on your pictures, you are not far from where you want to be. I've fought various battles along the way, and it does take some perseverance. If it helps, I think you have a lot of people pulling for you.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Greggz said:


> Chris I am no expert on this, but the link also says that the dosing creates CaCO3, so it is creating a carbonate, which would in turn raise KH. At least that seems to be what I am reading.
> 
> Have you checked with your water supplier? Maybe they can shed some light.
> 
> And like others have said, I hope you keep up the fight. Based on your pictures, you are not far from where you want to be. I've fought various battles along the way, and it does take some perseverance. If it helps, I think you have a lot of people pulling for you.


Something bizarre is happening in my tank. I raised CO2, tested KH and it is 6! I didn't dose Baking soda in either of the two large water changes and was expecting it to be around 2-3. Only trace Equilibrium, small MgSO4 dose, and KH is +4.

Also, it appears that the Ambulia is starting to "take off" but it is doing the same damn thing, leaving behind the old growth. Its as if it grows really really slow unless there is enough stem to rob for nutrients, at which point growth picks up.

There is something very wrong or toxic with the tap water. I don't know what to do as this hobby is not enjoyable anymore. Putting all this work, building, accurate tracking, research, and I can only grow twisted and stunted versions of plants with constant algae cleaning. It all comes down to the BS tap water that is probably laced with NaOH. I'm not setup where I can easily add RO water; that is out and there don't appear to be any real chemists in the hobby who can explain what is happening.

Edit.. To answer your question, I have searched water databases and found reference to local water but there is no info on amendments, only ppm description of things they are required to track, like lead and toxic chemicals.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

ChrisX said:


> It all comes down to the BS tap water that is probably laced with NaOH.
> 
> I'm not setup where I can easily add RO water; that is out and there don't appear to be any real chemists in the hobby who can explain what is happening.


I would doubt that sodium hydroxide is used in your water from that location in the county. Your water is listed with 2.6 ppm of sodium content.

They run a coagulation/flocculation system that involves Chlorine most likely @ 10ppm, ferric sulfate, and lime. In winter months with cold ground water they most likely add calcium carbonate with their lime to increase floc production to precipitate metals. In the end they are most likely maintaining an alkalinity of less than 50ppm measured as CaCO3 which is most likely their cap limit.
This alkalinity equates to about 2.8dKH
After filtration their next addition would be fluoride.
Believe our water also contains chloramines most likely included under chlorine content but injected after filtration pre-fluoride.

Food grade tanker delivered 50% NaOH is extremely expensive and needs freeze protection etc.. Very much cost prohibitive including heat jacketed tanks for storage.

Just sayin'


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Maryland Guppy said:


> I would doubt that sodium hydroxide is used in your water from that location in the county. Your water is listed with 2.6 ppm of sodium content.
> 
> They run a coagulation/flocculation system that involves Chlorine most likely @ 10ppm, ferric sulfate, and lime. In winter months with cold ground water they most likely add calcium carbonate with their lime to increase floc production to precipitate metals. In the end they are most likely maintaining an alkalinity of less than 50ppm measured as CaCO3 which is most likely their cap limit.
> This alkalinity equates to about 2.8dKH
> ...


Interesting read. Does this explain the unique KH/pH relationship?


If that is all thats in the water, then why use an RO system? The water is otherwise very soft and shouldn't really need RO.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

ChrisX said:


> If that is all thats in the water, then why use an RO system? The water is otherwise very soft and shouldn't really need RO.


With RODI water there is never an unknown.
It's only what you add and that's it.

I'm striving for a low to non-existent KH to grow plants of a unique caliber.
In time I'll reach the goal but not in too big a hurry.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The only new species doing really poorly is the Rotala Magenta. I used a water bottle bottom filled with generic potting soil and covered with play sand as a temporary pot.

The tiny stems had been growing roots so hopefully they will get what they need from the soil. They are also in a more open area with likely more PAR.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I'm still really discouraged. The biggest signal that nothing really has changed is that the Ambulia stems are still showing the "rocket" growth pattern, where they give up the bottoms of the stems. This is just the most noticable plant, they are all showing variations of this. 

Just do this..
Just do this..
Just do this..

I've added DTPA Fe.
I'm dosing full EI.
I have done 2x 50% WC to remove built up NaHCO3.
I'm using a moderate dose of Equilibrium for Ca/Mg, without adding too much K.
MgSO4 for Mg.
I've increased CO2.

Tank is pearling like mad, slower than expected vertical growth, most things are showing Chlorosis.

Honestly, the only noticeable improvement came when I tripled the dose of Equilibrium and the Pearlweed carpet exploded. Prior to this, I was dosing lean EI and I suspect I was low in potassium. There hasn't been an improvement in any of the existing plants besides the pearlweed. 

The point of contention now, is if my tap water contains something detrimental to the plants. It was suggested there might be NaOH. This seems to be the only way to explain the pH/KH relationship. Also explains the higher than expected KH.


https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...on/1287519-sodium-hydroxide-planted-tank.html

The other side says that my pH tests are wrong and that I probably don't have enough CO2. 

Local water reports are sparse of information although MDGuppy says there is minimimal sodium so it's probably not treated with NaOH. Even though we live in the same area, our water is apparently different and we are in different "zones". I believe his pH is 7.2, mine is 7.8-8.2.

I suspect I will have to kill some fish before they think there is enough CO2. I've shown a video of the massive pearling and the yellow/green drop checker, so I'm pretty sure only fish deaths will satisfy the hypothesis that there isn't enough CO2.

The only thing I *haven't* done is dose CaSO4; I'm still using Equilibrium for Ca, although I've calculated the dose so there isn't too much K.

The NaOH + CO2 precipitating CO3 and raising KH in the bargain seems to be the best explanation for what is happening. Another explanation is sensitive plant species that are injured by Na.

Unsure where to go from here besides an RO system, but this hobby has gotten out of hand and I need to put on the brakes. Was supposed to be simple and relaxing hobby. I've had BS high tech/expensive/time sink hobbies before.

I'd like to thank everyone for their help. I'm not sure there is anything else to offer.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

ChrisX said:


> I'm still really discouraged. The biggest signal that nothing really has changed is that the Ambulia stems are still showing the "rocket" growth pattern, where they give up the bottoms of the stems. This is just the most noticable plant, they are all showing variations of this.
> 
> Just do this..
> Just do this..
> ...


I've highlighted the parts of your post that jumped out at me. For me ".. slower than expected vertical growth .." screams CO2 for Stems. Most Stems are actually bog plants that normally will grow vertically to get to the surface where CO2 is more abundant. Inter-nodal spacing will be long as the plant spends more of its resources to get to good air. When we satisfy that CO2 need there's less need to"get to the surface and fewer resources are spent on stem production and are allocated to other needs.

The Ph/KH/CO2 relationship is a little too sketchy to taken by the numbers alone. The charts are only accurate when KH consists only of Carbonate. Throw in Phosphates and others and the numbers won't jive. But the principles can still be used. As I see it you may have a possible path with working a little more with CO2 But you need to pay less attention to the charts and numbers and instead watch your plants and live stock. If you can bump the CO2 up just bit without stressing your stock, good. Go for it and watch the plant for a change, good or bad. Repeat till you stop seeing improvement, any improvement, or untill you see signs of stress in the stock. Take a pH reading then and use it, or maybe a bit lower for a safety margin, as a good target.

Could get you to a place where the other things come into clearer view. My $0.02.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

ChrisX said:


> I'm still really discouraged.


Sorry to hear it, I am very new to this hobby still (a few years) and have been there many times myself. I started my first tank with Tahitian Moonsand which is the devil and that combined with low light allowed me to grow NOTHING except algae in my first tank. These days I will never use anything other than a hard baked Aquasoil for a planted tank.




ChrisX said:


> The NaOH + CO2 precipitating CO3 and raising KH in the bargain seems to be the best explanation for what is happening. Another explanation is sensitive plant species that are injured by Na.


As I wrote in your other thread, I'm afraid you are barking up the wrong tree there, if your pH is acidic you are not precipitating Carbonate at all. Even if you were if would never be Sodium Carbonate, it would be Calcium Carbonate (limestone) if anything and I highly doubt that is the source of your problems as it is readily soluble in acidic solution especially in equilibrium with CO2.

I lack the experience of others around here, but I thought Chlorosis, is lack of light or Iron, I know you tested some Par values maybe revisit that?

If I have learned anything, be patient, change one thing at a time and wait days to see the progress. I have heard it said before resetting ferts with multiple large water changes and then looking carefully at what you are/should be dosing is prudent. I'd be tempted just to dose 1/2 EI from thrive and not touch anything else.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I'm done. Thanks for your help.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

ChrisX said:


> I'm done. Thanks for your help.



I know you are probably fed up with this discussion already but there is just one more thing I wanted to draw your attention to.
https://barrreport.com/threads/co2-ph-kh-table.10717/

At kH of 2 out of the tap you would need your CO2 to drop your to pH 6.3(or lower see Tom Barr note) to get 30ppm of CO2.
At kH of 6 out of the tap you would need your CO2 to drop the pH to 6.7 to get 30+ppm of Co2.

Are you sure you are getting down to pH 6.3? Otherwise take a look at the table for what your CO2 concentration could be be in your tank, keep in mind that is max CO2 and it could be lower because not all Carbonate hardness comes from Carbonate.


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

Hello, I was just reading through your thread. Co2 at 3 bps and 5 hours to reach desired ph drop at 100 par. I am thinking when your lights come on, the plant load is eating up all the co2 in the first couple hours. At 3bps, it is not enough to replenish or maintain the co2, during the later part of your photo period. If you tried raising your co2 and the fish seemed stressed, either you raised the co2 too much at once, or circulation needs adjusting. I have a tank half the size of yours and my bps is unrecognizable. The fish are happy. Just something for you to look into. I would hate to see your give up. Goodluck


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## Thelongsnail (Dec 2, 2015)

I really enjoy this journal, despite not understanding half of what is going on. However:

If certain plants aren't thriving and are causing major stress, f*ck them and get rid.

If you're not comfortable with increased CO2, f*ck it and don't do it.

You've got a happy and healthy tank, so f*ck whichever parts of the hobby you don't like, and focus on what makes you happy. You sound at the end of your tether, and there's no point letting plants of all things make you this unhappy. I have a huge amount of respect for those on this forum who know every intricate detail about their tank and its chemistry, but I have an equal if not greater respect for those who know when to stop.

Alternatively, why not get a spare 20 Long (or similar), don't stock with any living creatures, whack it full of CO2/ferts/whatever else, and see what happens?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Thelongsnail said:


> If certain plants aren't thriving and are causing major stress, f*ck them and get rid.
> 
> If you're not comfortable with increased CO2, f*ck it and don't do it.


Exactly.

I was having more fun with it when I was focused on the fish. Maintaining a planted tank seems to me like a form of masochism. Maybe some people have found a stasis with a level of maintenance they are happy with, but I notice those people are either running small tanks or have a very high level of tech including RO water. 

There is also a good degree of misinformation. The "drop pH by one to reach 30ppm" is complete BS advice and assumes a certain water type. The "disregard the CO2/KH/pH table" is complete BS advice too. The "your pH test kit is incorrect" is complete BS advice. The "your water should have no issues" is somewhat BS advice for a number of reasons.

My tap water comes out at pH 8.2, KH =2. Using CO2 to drop pH by one point, only provides a few ppm of CO2. According to the chart, pH needs to be around 6.3 to reach the magic number. Its not a linear relationship. 

People have said water with pH 8ish should have a much higher KH than 2. That this obviously points to an incorrect pH test. But wait, not so fast! It turns out there are situations where NaOH or other chemicals are used in water treatment. But my "local water tests shows low Na" proves that is not the case.... Yet adding CO2 is raising KH by two so there is some carbonate being precipitated. There is *something* extra in the water whether it is NaOH or CaCO3. 

I've raised CO2 delivery to bring CO2 to the 6.3 range. Plant growth is possibly improved, although its just the species that were already doing well. Problem species are still problem species. The issue is I can tell the fish are more restless and agitated. Basically this is a pH swing of 2 points every day, and the fish aren't really happy with that. If my tap water was "normal" and came at pH7.2, KH2, then the "drop pH by one point" would apply and there wouldn't be such detrimental effect on the livestock.

Now, here comes the chorus of "advice" which frankly at this point I am tired of hearing. The misinformation and armchair quarterbacking increased the noise and makes the hobby unenjoyable. Its not that anyone did anything wrong, its just that I discovered that the hobby is not what I thought it was. Running nosebleed CO2 on the verge of gassing my fish is not relaxing or fun. I'm not willing to do anything that would increase maintenance time.

Also, according to the table, my tap water is "dead" and holds very little CO2 which explains why low tech setups haven't worked well. If the tap water was in a more normal pH/KH range, CO2 in standing water would be considerably higher.

Basically this water is best suited for hardscape and plastic plants.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Well, short of giving you advice my own advice to myself was find plants that "like me"....
Match plants to conditions not conditions to plants.




> That is about perfect water for a Sulawesi shrimp tank. I know a lot of folks in the freshwater invert community who would absolutely DIE to have water like that coming out of their tap.


 @OVT will know where that comes from.. 
Except for salt (you didn't explain what "low" actually means) his water was/is about the same.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Well, short of giving you advice my own advice to myself was find plants that "like me"....
> Match plants to conditions not conditions to plants.
> 
> 
> ...


Great advice. I don't know how much salt is in there other than a local water report MDGuppy linked last week that suggests its "low". I know that there is some kind of amendment because the act of adding CO2 to tap water raises KH by 2.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Go back to where it was enjoyable- wherever that may be for you. 
Wishing you the best...


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> Great advice. I don't know how much salt is in there other than a local water report MDGuppy linked last week that suggests its "low". I know that there is some kind of amendment because the act of adding CO2 to tap water raises KH by 2.



still betting they add NaOH...as suspected earlier..
Maybe they pull some of sodium out later .. or "low" is not "low" if you get my drift...



> My water district reports "hardness" 108, Alkalinity 69, Ca 21, Mg 12.7, Na 63, SO4 60, K 3.3 (all in mg/L) AND pH of 8.5
> Testing the tap water myself I get pH 8.8 with calibrated HANNA pHep 4 and dKH of 3 using API's reagent test kit. I tried to measure dGH multiple times with the said API kit without any success (the color never turns from orange to green regardless of how many drops of reagent I add).


http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ussions/73118-soft-but-high-ph-tap-water.html



> There is no health-based standard for sodium in drinking water. Only a small portion of the sodium we consume actually comes from water. Instead, the standard for sodium is based on taste. The Canadian Drinking Water Guideline for sodium is 200 mg/L. Sodium concentrations above 200 mg/L will make the water taste “salty”.
> 
> Public drinking-water systems under the Safe Drinking Water Act are required to sample for sodium on a regular basis and report to the Medical Officer of Health when sodium levels exceed 20 mg/L. This information is made available to local physicians in order to help persons on sodium-restricted diets control their sodium intake.


that's Canada for you..


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

@ChrisX do you have a TDS reading on your tap?

.. and you already know my current advice.


Find the 'fun' aspect of the hobby for you.
Do the 'fun' stuff.
Smile.
Repeat from (2).


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

ChrisX said:


> I was having more fun with it when I was focused on the fish.
> 
> The misinformation and armchair quarterbacking increased the noise and makes the hobby unenjoyable.
> 
> Its not that anyone did anything wrong, its just that I discovered that the hobby is not what I thought it was.


Just go back to the focus on phish.
Keep plants that like the soup you serve.

You still had a nice looking tank while raising the keyholes.
Maybe try breeding another species of phish?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ChrisX said:


> Now, here comes the chorus of "advice" which frankly at this point I am tired of hearing.


Chris don't forget the chorus of "advice" came because you repeatably asked for it.

I get you are frustrated, but I believe the folks who tried to help you had only good intentions. I know I did.

Good luck with whatever direction you decide to go.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Greggz said:


> Chris don't forget the chorus of "advice" came because you repeatably asked for it.
> 
> I get you are frustrated, but I believe the folks who tried to help you had only good intentions. I know I did.
> 
> Good luck with whatever direction you decide to go.


I'm not blaming anyone but myself. However, much of the advice was conflicting and incorrect. I think everyone on the forum learned something.

You know the old saying, if you ask a stupid question, expect a stupid answer. Chemistry questions are for chemists.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

jeffkrol said:


> still betting they add NaOH...as suspected earlier..
> Maybe they pull some of sodium out later .. or "low" is not "low" if you get my drift...


Based on what information? The water treatment could just as easily be 'quickliming' the water by adding Ca(OH)2<> CalciumCarbonate, as it not very soluble in basic solution either. There are many 'natural' ways to create a mildly basic solution. (ph=8.2, kh=2, gh=4)

*But why does the source of basicity (8.2ph versus 7.4ph) even matter?* 

IMO it doesn't. ChrisX doesn't know TDS he also didn't verify his water table data. It is an entirely poor, unlikely, assumption that his water is somehow unsafe or unuseable for any plants or fish(most fish should be okay with gh=4 water). 

This problem (low kH, ph=8.2) is very solvable and has been done without using RODI water. 

Add ~2 gram(use a scale not a measuring spoon!) of Baking Soda per 50 litres of water to raise dkh ~2 degees. 

*But won't that add too much Sodium(Na+)?*

No. 2 grams of Sodium Bicarbonate(Baking Soda)/50L It adds ~11ppm Sodium(Na+ Ions) to the solution to raise the KH 2 degrees (2/50000*23/84)

*But won't that raise the pH too much I already have basic water?*

No. If you are adding CO2 you should have buffered neutral or slightly acidic water at equilibium. You would be adding a weak base to buffered neutral or slightly acidic water during water changes so the tank water will never become too basic and adding more acidic CO2 should lead to a slightly acidic equilibrium.

*My fish won't like ph=6.3 (for Kh=2) water so how can I get to 30ppm CO2 without reducing pH so much?* 

While I know many fish species can tolerate such ph swings(ph=8.2 - 6.3), the solution is raising the kH to 4. Then the equilibirum for ~30ppm CO2 is ph=6.6.

At a kH of 5, a ph around 6.7 - 6.8 will allow 30ppm dissolved CO2. At that pH most fish should be happy.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

cl3537 said:


> Based on what information? The water treatment could just as easily be 'quickliming' the water by adding Ca(OH)2<> CalciumCarbonate, as it not very soluble in basic solution either. There are many 'natural' ways to create a mildly basic solution. (ph=8.2, kh=2, gh=4)
> 
> *But why does the source of basicity (8.2ph versus 7.4ph) even matter?*
> 
> ...


 I could actually follow this! 

A chemist that can speak to the layperson. Kudos.
You should be a teacher.

Bump:


ChrisX said:


> I'm not blaming anyone but myself. However, much of the advice was conflicting and incorrect. I think everyone on the forum learned something.
> 
> You know the old saying, if you ask a stupid question, expect a stupid answer. Chemistry questions are for chemists.


conflicting answers. 



That old saying is wrong- there are no stupid questions when you are learning. And anyone that feels a question is stupid because they no the answer should not be helping beginners.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

cl3537 said:


> IMO it doesn't. ChrisX doesn't know TDS he also didn't verify his water table data. It is an entirely poor, unlikely, assumption that his water is somehow unsafe or unuseable for any plants or fish(most fish should be okay with gh=4 water).


I have observed fish behavior when dropping pH 2 points, and that is enough to tell me that I don't want to pursue this level of CO2 on a regular basis.

The problem is not that I haven't performed a TDS test, but that I arrived at my conclusion for reasons that you have no business in deciding for me. Being called out for "not running a TDS test" is the kind of BS that I didn't imagine was part of this hobby. 

13 Posts could be an alt account, have no idea of credentials, haven't seen your tank. Just not worth getting into it with you, or anyone else for that matter. Apparently you didn't get that from my earlier posts about stepping away from this.

/thread Thats it for me.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

cl3537 said:


> Based on what information? The water treatment could just as easily be 'quickliming' the water by adding Ca(OH)2<> CalciumCarbonate, as it not very soluble in basic solution either. There are many 'natural' ways to create a mildly basic solution. (ph=8.2, kh=2, gh=4)



Just a hunch..part of it would be what "end products" are left via each treatment..

http://www.wvdhhr.org/wateroperators/wv_advanced_course/resources/l2u1/l2appendix.pdf
Treating the Public Water Supply


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

cl3537 said:


> The water treatment could just as easily be 'quickliming' the water by adding Ca(OH)2<> CalciumCarbonate, as it not very soluble in basic solution either. There are many 'natural' ways to create a mildly basic solution. (ph=8.2, kh=2, gh=4)


They use a flocculation system, typically calcium hydroxide is used along with ferric sulfate.
This time of year cold ground water sometimes does not react well enough and calcium hydroxide needs the addition of calcium carbonate to aid in the process.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

ChrisX said:


> I have observed fish behavior when dropping pH 2 points, and that is enough to tell me that I don't want to pursue this level of CO2 on a regular basis.


I can respect that, and that is why I suggested a solution which would make the changes less drastic and raises your kH without having to use a RODI system. 

My Montreal water has pH=8.3(kh=5) I use constant CO2 (17g tank) while others I know use a pH controller to get ph=6.8. That is a pH swing of 1.6 and I know its safe for just about any fish, one of our top hobbyist stores sets their controller to pH=6.8 and has kept a wide variety of fish in their display tank for years at that pH with proper circulation.



> The problem is not that I haven't performed a TDS test, but that I arrived at my conclusion for reasons that you have no business in deciding for me. Being called out for "not running a TDS test" is the kind of BS that I didn't imagine was part of this hobby.


You continue to have posts in your thread about NaOH being the source of your problems. My entire post was in response to that, and why I don't think that is relevant, it wasn't really directed at you at all. I think we are in agreement you have been given misleading and/or inconclusive advice but your quarrel should not be with me.

The "BS Advice" can be proven wrong with a TDS meter, I'd be itching to know, but you can also ignore me and this thread and it should die in a couple of days anyway.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

ChrisX said:


> The problem is not that I haven't performed a TDS test, but that I arrived at my conclusion for reasons that you have no business in deciding for me. Being called out for "not running a TDS test" is the kind of BS that I didn't imagine was part of this hobby.


Sorry if I was yet another you saw as "calling you out". That definitely was not my intent. I'm a naturally curious person and that seemed to be the next logical step.

No more questions, I promise.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Some perspective:



Pope Francis said:


> Who am I to judge?





~Voltaire said:


> The worst enemy of Good is Better


A lot to be proud of:









@jeffkrol, yep, I've been at 8.4 for decades and I'm still selling plants. It is not the water.

As per all recent comments. read my signature. That above all.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

jeffkrol said:


> Just a hunch..part of it would be what "end products" are left via each treatment..
> 
> http://www.wvdhhr.org/wateroperators/wv_advanced_course/resources/l2u1/l2appendix.pdf
> Treating the Public Water Supply


Some general articles on water treatment chemistry provide no support for your theory on HIS water.
No wonder ChrisX is annoyed, this theory seems supported by JACK SQUAT! 

I don't know where he lives or what his water treatment facility looks like (this would be useful), but reading of other hobbyists with low kh, med/low gh, and 7.5 - 8.5 ph, this looks a lot more like a lime process than a NaOH process.

What "end products" exactly tell you its NaOH over anythingelse?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

I've annoyed Chris before.. 
The point of the 2 links was to show 1)most common alternative treatments and 2) Which "may" fit Chris's parameters better..

Been awhile since I've played w/ chemistry but:
Liming leave bicarbonate behind:


> Two minerals, lime (Ca(OH)2) and soda ash (Na2CO3), are typically used to soften public water supplies
> Bicarbonate (HCO3-) remaining in the water is nontoxic and does not negatively affect the flavor of the water.


Wouldn't that raise Kh.... @ 2 for Chris doesn't liming seem out?

KOH and NaOH wouldn't afaict..

Is that correct??


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

jeffkrol said:


> I've annoyed Chris before..
> The point of the 2 links was to show 1)most common alternative treatments and 2) Which "may" fit Chris's parameters better..
> 
> Been awhile since I've played w/ chemistry but:
> ...


No you have misunderstood the concept of water softening and the corresponding equilibriums.

There are several equilibria at work and they are adjusted in the treatment process, to affect an end result of remove Calcium and Magnesium from water.

The process removes hardness it doesn't add hardness as excess Ash and Lime is controlled. 

Bicarbonate is always in equilibrium in solution with Carbonate. Removing Carbonate pushes the equilibrium to Carbonate and reduces Bicarbonate concentration.

When lime and soda ash are added, hardness-causing minerals form nearly insoluble precipitates. Calcium hardness is precipitated as calcium carbonate (CaCO3). Magnesium hardness is precipitated as magnesium hydroxide (Mg(OH)2). These precipitates are then removed by conventional processes of coagulation/flocculation, sedimentation, and filtration. Because precipitates are very slightly soluble, some hardness remains in the water--usually about 50 to 85 mg/l (as CaCO3). This hardness level is desirable to prevent corrosion problems associated with water being too soft and having little or no hardness. 

LIME ADDITION 

Hardness + Lime >>>> Precipitate 

CO2(g) + Ca(OH)2 -> CaCO3 + H2O 

Ca(HCO3)2 + Ca(OH)2 -> 2CaCO3 + 2H20 

Mg(HCO3)2 + Ca(OH)2 -> CaCO3 + MgCO3 + 2H20 

MgCO3 + Ca(OH)2 -> CaCO3 + Mg(OH)2 

CO2 does not contribute to the hardness, but it reacts with the lime, and therefore uses up some lime before the lime can start removing the hardness. 

LIME AND SODA ASH ADDITION 

Lime MgSO4 + Ca(OH)2 -> Mg(OH)2 + CaSO4 

Soda ash Precipitate CaSO4 + Na2CO3 -> CaCO3 + Na2SO4 

CO2 = carbon dioxide, Ca(OH)2 = calcium hydroxide or hydrated lime, CaCO3 = calcium carbonate, Ca(HCO3)2 = calcium bicarbonate, Mg(HCO3)2 = magnesium bicarbonate, MgCO3 = magnesium carbonate, Mg(OH)2 = magnesium hydroxide, MgSO4 = magnesium sulfate, CaSO4 = calcium sulfate, H20 - water. Na2CO3 = sodium carbonate or soda ash


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Just for fun..


> In drinking water treatment, sodium hydroxide is often used instead of powdered alkalis such as lime
> or soda ash, because the systems for adding sodium hydroxide are less complicated and require less
> maintenance. The chemical can also be used in place of lime to soften water by removing carbonate
> and noncarbonate hardness. Sodium hydroxide can also partially or fully substitute for the soda ash
> ...


Australia btw..


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

jeffkrol said:


> Just for fun..
> 
> 
> Australia btw..


He lives in Australia(?)
Where do you live? and please link to that source you just quoted.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

cl3537 said:


> He lives in Australia(?)


http://www.esc.nsw.gov.au/council-s...er-and-sewer/documents/Southern_Chemicals.pdf


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Just for fun..


This was from the other thread about NaOH. I'm not so much concerned with actual sodium in the water, but what it precipitates out. The water may be totally calcium deficient based on the chemical reactions in the document... or not. IOW, not all water created equally.

Also more than a bit curious about the high "chlorate" reading. 

The red box is probably parameters for my zone. I might be in the yellow box. Note what it says about the origin of sodium in the water.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

ChrisX said:


> This was from the other thread about NaOH. I'm not so much concerned with actual sodium in the water


Sodium is low 5 - 9ppm range not something to worry about at all.



> , but what it precipitates out


Your GH=4, assuming your treatment plant does what most plants do, (~4:1 Ca:Mg) so you likely have about ~58ppm Ca and ~14ppm Mg respectively.
That silly report doesn't even list Mg or Ca which is a pretty bad oversite but doesn't indicate anything other than they were sloppy not that those cations are not present.



> The water may be totally calcium deficient based on the chemical reactions in the document... or not. IOW, not all water created equally.


Based on your gH we already know that isn't true. 



> Also more than a bit curious about the high "chlorate" reading.


Its listed in parts per billion, hardly something I'd worry about. Hypochlorite(bleach) has more oxidizing power(more dangerous) and I'm sure traces of it are leftover from bleach cleanings of ceramic discs etc even after rinsing repeatedly and that hasn't come up as a problem.

I am curious though if the dechlorinators can bind chlorate they may not. 


> The red box is probably parameters for my zone. I might be in the yellow box. Note what it says about the origin of sodium in the water.


The amount of sodium in your water is not very high, but that note doesn't really answer whether the sodium came from Na2CO3 or NaOH or both its still such a low concentration.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

I am completely fascinated by this thread. I apologize if I created any discord


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

mbkemp said:


> I am completely fascinated by this thread. I apologize if I created any discord
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Me too- well, what I understand.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

mbkemp said:


> I am completely fascinated by this thread. I apologize if I created any discord
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ditto - would make me think twice about moving to Oz, though.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

I live in oz. it ain’t all bad


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

:laugh2::laugh2:


mbkemp said:


> I live in oz. it ain’t all bad
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

cl3537 said:


> Your GH=4, *assuming your treatment plant does what most plants do,* (~4:1 Ca:Mg) so you likely have about ~58ppm Ca and ~14ppm Mg respectively.
> That silly report doesn't even list Mg or Ca which is a pretty bad oversite but doesn't indicate anything other than they were sloppy not that those cations are not present.
> 
> 
> ...


After yesterday's WC, I did not add any Equilibrium only Epsom Salt. Today there was a noticeable uptick in algae. I wasn't willing to let it go like this another day so I added the original dose of Equilibrium and will monitor throughout the week. Nothing else changed, pH6.3-6.4 at lights on. 

What could be missing? Equilibrium is Ca, Mg, and K. Full EI and Epsom Salt should cover Mg and K. There may be a calcium deficiency in the water.

This is why I hate the word "should". (Assumptions) With GH=4, there "should" be Ca, but no one here would be willing to bet their life on it (or their tank's life). Links in this thread show a variety of water treatment processes and also show Ca precipitating as CaCO3 with addition of CO2. 

I had to give up on some plant species. The Didiplus Diandra didn't grow, didn't root, didn't do anything. The rotala Magenta grew some roots, minimal new leaves and was on its way out. The HC Japan melted and probably could have recovered by I already had similar carpeting species, so it had to go.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

ChrisX said:


> After yesterday's WC, I did not add any Equilibrium only Epsom Salt. Today there was a noticeable uptick in algae. I wasn't willing to let it go like this another day so I added the original dose of Equilibrium and will monitor throughout the week. Nothing else changed, pH6.3-6.4 at lights on.
> 
> What could be missing? Equilibrium is Ca, Mg, and K. Full EI and Epsom Salt should cover Mg and K. There may be a calcium deficiency in the water.
> 
> ...


The root causes of Algae are never ferts, especially not Calcium or Magnesium. Look to your lighting first, then CO2 and flow. A distant 3rd would be Macros than Micros. Read Tom Barr's articles if you don't beleive me.

You lost plants before but you didn't have your CO2 dialed in back then, I won't even guess on the other issues.

If solving the Calcium/Magnesium puzzle bothers you so much then you can get the API Ca2+ test kit. Doesn't even matter if its not super accurate it will tell you if you have very little. Maybe a LFS will test a sample of water for you?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

cl3537 said:


> You lost plants before but you didn't have your CO2 dialed in back then, I won't even guess on the other issues.


Huh? I don't know to what you're referring. Most things I put in my tanks have grown. Significantly raising CO2 hasn't really changed the tank's condition. pH test and drop checker are nearly yellow, there is tons of pearling yet some new species are stalled. The ambulia is starting to look better but thats probably the DTPA iron.

I've come to the conclusion that there isn't anything here for you in my thread. Even if you are "right" I'd rather get my info from other people.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

*Limnophilia Aromatica*

This plant looks OK, but growth is slow. The new leaves on top are tight and bushy, but its only grown about 2 inches in a month. This is the paradox of my tank. The light is at least 100 PAR, full EI doses, DTPA iron, yellowish/green drop checker (6.3), tons of pearling, yet vertical growth is slower than expected.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

This past week I increased CO2 20%, pH6.3 at lights on. There seems to have been decreased thread algae, but growth still seems stunted. This coming week, I've increased CO2 another 20% and will monitor fish. Still suspect there is a deficiency, but will try "nosebleed" CO2 before moving on. Its at the point where beyond this rate will be very difficult/impossible to count bubbles.

Also changed canister plumbing so both back corners have an inlet and added a central wavemaker aimed downward to hopefully increase flow near the bottom.

I've kept glut in a spray bottle and found the best use for it is during WC to spray the equipment. This keeps algae in check on difficult to clean things.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

ChrisX said:


> This plant looks OK, but growth is slow. The new leaves on top are tight and bushy, but its only grown about 2 inches in a month. This is the paradox of my tank. The light is at least 100 PAR, full EI doses, DTPA iron, yellowish/green drop checker (6.3), tons of pearling, yet vertical growth is slower than expected.


I will say this Chris - I have the same plant, at 130ish PAR, with plenty of fertilizer. Can't say I would get 2" per month. An inch for sure - maybe. The tops of mine do look similar to yours.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Chris good to see an update and that you are still fighting the battle.

I like where you are going and hoping the best for you. 

Looking forward to seeing where this goes and further updates.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Wow, that's a lot to take in.
All i will say is, and I'm sure you already know, tweak slowly to narrow down the issues. The main theory of troubleshooting is to one ever change one thing at any given time. That way the direct outcomes can be related to the altered variable.
Good luck, from a fellow aussie


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)




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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Well, this is unexpected...

Last week when upping CO2, fish became agitated. What actually happend was two paired and layed eggs (and terrorized the other fish). They ate the eggs a few days ago, so I removed the spawning rock during tank cleaning to discourage this from happening again.

Today I see they have dug a pit and there are about 10 wigglers that somehow survived the tank vac. I'm not prepared to raise them but really hate to euthanize them. The other fish need respite from the chasing whenever they come out of hiding.

Euthanized.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Well, one bit of useful information - upping the CO2 did not force them to the surface sucking air. I know all to well that when I get to 6.3ph most of the bows are at the surface. When I am at 6.4ph they swim a little less and spend more time in the upper 1/3rd of the tank. And 6.5ph they do what ever they want. 

Point being, a little more co2 might be OK. Or they will quickly let you know it's not.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Immortal1 said:


> Well, one bit of useful information - upping the CO2 did not force them to the surface sucking air. I know all to well that when I get to 6.3ph most of the bows are at the surface. When I am at 6.4ph they swim a little less and spend more time in the upper 1/3rd of the tank. And 6.5ph they do what ever they want.
> 
> Point being, a little more co2 might be OK. Or they will quickly let you know it's not.


According to the pH test, it should be < 6.4 through the entire day. But at this range, the difference between 6.3 and 6.4 with KH=2 could be 24 and 30ppm. And that assumes the KH is *actually* 2.

I may give it yet another boost beginning of next week. There is tons of pearling, when a fish brushes a plant a curtain of bubbles escapes.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

I know KH is involved in helping keep ph stable but I really dont know how low you have to get before it's an issue. 
Can't remember if you ever figured out your PAR level but I can agree - pretty cool when the fish swims against a plant and a ton of bubbles float up


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

@ChrisX I'm glad you are seeing some improvement and didn't ditch everyhting. :grin2:


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Maryland Guppy said:


> @ChrisX I'm glad you are seeing some improvement and didn't ditch everyhting. :grin2:


Its not as much improvement as you might think.  But at least there aren't gobs of algae everywhere.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> Its not as much improvement as you might think.  But at least there aren't gobs of algae everywhere.


Spoke too soon. Despite daily DTPA Fe, full EI, Epsom salt, daily cleaning, increased circ, and increased CO2, tank crashed. Tons of algae growing on everything almost overnight. This seems to happen when there is increased plant mass.

Nitrate and phosphates read in range, I suspect there is a Ca deficiency that is exacerbated once plant mass increases beyond a certain point. Can't imagine it is a macro, based on readings. 

Before it might have been CO2 limited, but now the drop checker is almost yellow (pH 6.3ish) and when plant mass gets large, tank crashes. Its not thread algae like before, but a combination of green fuzz, BGA, and some tiny amounts of BBA on glass at substrate.

I've been titrating Equilibrium downward. If not Ca, what could it be?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Is it possible this is a Magnesium deficiency? Despite DPTA iron, the ambulia still gives up the bottoms (chlorosis). This suggests a mobile nutrient, and also apparently Mg influences uptake of Fe. Against all reason, a simple plant like Hygro Siamensis barely grows and most plants exhibit chlorosis to varying degrees, yet the tank is pearling like crazy.

I've been adding 1/2tsp / 10 gal Epsom salt at WC. I've doubled that today to see what happens.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

ChrisX said:


> Spoke too soon. Despite daily DTPA Fe, full EI, Epsom salt, daily cleaning, increased circ, and increased CO2, tank crashed. Tons of algae growing on everything almost overnight. This seems to happen when there is increased plant mass.
> 
> Nitrate and phosphates read in range, I suspect there is a Ca deficiency that is exacerbated once plant mass increases beyond a certain point. Can't imagine it is a macro, based on readings.
> 
> ...



I'm thinking MG's algae bomb may have extended a little further than just his tank :grin2:


Anyway, all joking aside - I am curious about a few things with your tank. I did some digging in this tread and I believe you are using tap water and not RO or something else, correct?
If so, best I could find is you are at a GH of 4 and a KH of 2 - is that correct? and is that your tap water? According to my Ca_Mg spreadsheet, a GH of 4 could have 20ppm Ca and a calculated Mg of 5.23 for a 3.82:1 ratio. This could seem reasonable. 



I ask because we are collecting such a nice assortment of info in the Share your dosing thread. If the numbers I stated above are correct, it looks like Ken Keating was running something close to your water except he is doing RO water so maybe not much help. 



Super_Smirky states 17ppm Ca and a KH of 2. He is using tap water. I could not find a FTS of their tank for a comparison but lets assume their tank looks nice and healthy. I wonder "if" their dosing methods would work in your tank? I don't see where they are adding in any Ca or Mg. 



Now, I am certainly NOT saying you should immediately change to exactly what they are dosing, but it would be interesting to compare your numbers to theirs and maybe go in that direct "slowly".
Clearly your Co2 seems to be much better than nothing. Your lighting, as discussed when MG was there with his Seneye seems to be good. Outside of those 2 things, what else is there?
Again, just trying to help figure out whats missing... or what there is too much of... or not enough of. For some reason my gut instinct says you have too much of ____ which is effecting ____ and making ____ mad which upsets the plants. 

Post 98 of this thread


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Immortal1 said:


> I'm thinking MG's algae bomb may have extended a little further than just his tank :grin2:
> 
> 
> Anyway, all joking aside - I am curious about a few things with your tank. I did some digging in this tread and I believe you are using tap water and not RO or something else, correct?
> ...


These are good questions. After CO2 is added KH of tap goes from 2-> 4 in tank. To me this suggests that CaCO3 is precipitating and (as per other thread) there might be NaOH.

gh of tap water is 4. I have been adding Equilibrium and/or Epsom to raise Gh another ~2.

I believe CO2 is at least 20ppm because pH test 6.3ish and almost yellow drop checker, plus the pearling and growth of some things is very rapid. I have significant 660nm leds which may not have been read by the seneye, so I suspect PAR is significantly more than 100. I have not seen this much pearling in anyone elses tank videos.

But there is absolutely something wrong, chlorosis.

I am handling this experimentally. This week have increased Mg. If no improvement, will increase Ca.

The general problem is that while many things grow like gangbusters, the plants give up the old leaves inexplicably. This suggests a mobile nutrient which is why I question if Mg is deficient. Ca is not mobile, however a Ca deficiency could explain stunted and twisted leaves of some species so I am willing to entertain either.

This is beyond frustrating.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

ChrisX said:


> These are good questions. After CO2 is added KH of tap goes from 2-> 4 in tank. To me this suggests that CaCO3 is precipitating and (as per other thread) there might be NaOH.
> 
> gh of tap water is 4. I have been adding Equilibrium and/or Epsom to raise Gh another ~2.
> 
> ...



I like the tone of this post :grin2:
Agreed, the deep red is touchy with the Seneye. It seems you really have to point the sensor right at the source and even then you might not record all of it. That said, I have been running 130-136 PAR for more than a month. Lets say for arguments sake your light is exactly the same as mine... My plants seem to be doing pretty good (knock on wood) - so I would say the plant deficiency issue is not the light. 



Pearling may not be a real good indicator of CO2 as much as it is an indicator that your tank water is oxygen rich and your lights are driving the plants pretty hard. But, if the drop checker has the right stuff in it and it is yellow, you have a reasonable amount of CO2 in the tank. Don't think CO2 is "mobile" so I can't image it is the issue with your plants dropping older leaves. 



Kh issues - Sodium hydroxide, also known as lye and caustic soda, is an inorganic compound with the formula NaOH. It is a white solid ionic compound consisting of sodium cations Na⁺ and hydroxide anions OH−ok, I have no idea what all that means with regards to your plants. My only knowledge is you need enough (how much is enough?) to have a stable pH. Others have a KH of 2 ish so I can't believe this is the "big issue". Could I be wrong? Clearly I have not idea (lol).

"To me this suggests that CaCO3 is precipitating out". Calcium carbonate is a chemical compound with the formula CaCO₃. It is a common substance found in rocks as the minerals calcite and aragonite and is the main component of pearls and the shells of marine organisms, snails, and eggs. No logical comment here either. Only that most everyone here is dosing CO2. Many of us have a significantly larger amount of Ca than you have. If some of my 65ppm Ca precipitates out it likely does not matter as I have plenty. Now I can better understand why you might want to add more Ca to your tank. Adding some Equalibrium does make sense - unless your really don't want the extra K.


Back to your experiment - it might take 2 weeks to work thru possible accumulation issues (or lack of) to get a good visual response. Given that your GH is 4, it would be interesting to know if your area of the world is a bit odd in that you have low Ca and high Mg - lets say 11ish Ca and 11ish Mg (still a GH of 4). Adding only Ca and nothing else might balance things out. Get the Ca:Mg ratio closer to 3:1 and the rest of the ferts may begin to work better. Curious, do you have an API Ca test kit?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Immortal1 said:


> "To me this suggests that CaCO3 is precipitating out". Calcium carbonate is a chemical compound with the formula CaCO₃. It is a common substance found in rocks as the minerals calcite and aragonite and is the main component of pearls and the shells of marine organisms, snails, and eggs. No logical comment here either. Only that most everyone here is dosing CO2. Many of us have a significantly larger amount of Ca than you have. If some of my 65ppm Ca precipitates out it likely does not matter as I have plenty. Now I can better understand why you might want to add more Ca to your tank. Adding some Equalibrium does make sense - unless your really don't want the extra K.
> 
> 
> Back to your experiment - it might take 2 weeks to work thru possible accumulation issues (or lack of) to get a good visual response. Given that your GH is 4, it would be interesting to know if your area of the world is a bit odd in that you have low Ca and high Mg - lets say 11ish Ca and 11ish Mg (still a GH of 4). Adding only Ca and nothing else might balance things out. Get the Ca:Mg ratio closer to 3:1 and the rest of the ferts may begin to work better. Curious, do you have an API Ca test kit?


Because Ei macros should be "on point" based on actual tests, the deficiency must be Mg or a micro. Mg is a mobile nutrient so its a reasonable assumption that it is the issue.

Frankly I am not putting too much faith in my notes prior to raising the CO2; the fertilizer demands would rise with more growth and something that was on the edge before might now be deficient. 

Rotala Butterfly is a bit cryptic regarding total weekly MgSO4 dosing, but from what I gather it suggests there should be 15ppm Mg added over a week. Equilibrium may be mostly calcium and with my prior MgSO4 dose, I was probably < 15ppm.

Its always fun to latch onto a new theory about what is wrong until that theory is obliterated. The reason I have/had been questioning Ca is because adding CO2 raises the KH and the only explanation I've read is when NaOH reacts with CO2 to precipitate CaCO3. I have no idea if this is what is actually happening, but Ca is on my list of suspects.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

Out of curiosity, or my ignorance. But I would assume if something is precipitated out, wouldn't it be "take out" of the water and now into a solid form and not read in your water tests now? Unless that precipitated item then dissolves back into the water in an easier way. Is my thinking wrong on this??


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

chayos00 said:


> Out of curiosity, or my ignorance. But I would assume if something is precipitated out, wouldn't it be "take out" of the water and now into a solid form and not read in your water tests now? Unles Sources that precipitated item then dissolves back into the water in an easier way. Is my thinking wrong on this??


Your thinking is correct. kH at drinking water ph levels is predominantly [HCO3-] there is very little carbonate in solution below pH 8.5.
Normally kH doen't raise when you add CO2, If kH is higher when you add CO2 than that means carbonates are being dissolved as you lower the pH and you have more [HCO3-] thus raising kH.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

cl3537 said:


> Your thinking is correct. kH at drinking water ph levels is predominantly [HCO3-] there is very little carbonate in solution below pH 8.5.
> Normally kH doen't raise when you add CO2, If kH is higher when you add CO2 than that means carbonates are being dissolved as you lower the pH and you have more [HCO3-] thus raising kH.


Ah, that explains it a little better ( I was not a science major in school ). So this explains Chris's odd rise in KH - but does it contribute to the plant related issues that he is having? Or are they not related? (I really need to go back and re-read what Chris posted...


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

cl3537 said:


> Your thinking is correct. kH at drinking water ph levels is predominantly [HCO3-] there is very little carbonate in solution below pH 8.5.
> Normally kH doen't raise when you add CO2, If kH is higher when you add CO2 than that means carbonates are being dissolved as you lower the pH and you have more [HCO3-] thus raising kH.
> 
> [-IMG]https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=878877&stc=1&d=1552337258[/IMG]
> [-IMG]https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=878879&stc=1&d=1552337467[/IMG]


Just realized when I quoted you it indicates there's two image attachments. Pasting the link doesn't work either.

But the carbonates are coming from the CaCO3 (calcium carbonate) that's coming from the NaOH that's being used in his water, but then any idea where it comes from? Obviously some part of CO2 is probably in play here. Trying to read what converts to what has me all like :| HAHAHA Makes me glad I went remineralized RO and can control 100% of what goes into my water!


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

chayos00 said:


> Just realized when I quoted you it indicates there's two image attachments. Pasting the link doesn't work either.
> 
> But the carbonates are coming from the CaCO3 (calcium carbonate) that's coming from the NaOH that's being used in his water, but then any idea where it comes from? Obviously some part of CO2 is probably in play here. Trying to read what converts to what has me all like :| HAHAHA Makes me glad I went remineralized RO and can control 100% of what goes into my water!


I don't beleive that is it at all. However the water is treated the salts used in treatment are already removed(see the water report). What is left is a more basic solution than is predicted from Carbonate theory. What that means is the to estimate CO2 concentration you would ignore that Tom Barr chart it doesn't apply. Just look at tank degassed ph(make sure its accurate) and then figure out the drop after adding CO2. Roughly for every 1 point drop could be 30ppm CO2 an extra 0.1 3ppm more etc. Ignore the kH it isn't helpful in this case and ignore the Tom Barr chart it is really not helpful in this case. This is a rough ballpark it might overestimate the CO2 as some other buffer might be reacting with the CO2.

As for why the kH is rising upon CO2 injection, I don't know. I would look towards anything being added to the tank, anything in the filter and anything in the substrate. Something seems to be dissolving when the tank gets more acidic and raising kH.

Does any of this really matter in the grand scheme of plant health and algae growth? I don't know, if it does or doesn't it just creates some uncertainty in measuring CO2 levels so the default is just to monitor plants and fish to ensure levels aren't under or over. But one thing I can tell you it isn't the 'Evil NaOH' which is the source of the plant health and algae issues or anyone with basic water couldn't grow plants.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Three months without CO2, without nutrients. Just fed fish. A floating carpet of mostly brazillian pennywort and water sprite (and BGA) formed on top with tiny pieces of some other species poking through.

This is whats left.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

The cichlids and tank are looking great 

Any breeding behaviors? Spawns?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> The cichlids and tank are looking great
> 
> Any breeding behaviors? Spawns?


Tank is looking horrible. I will have to check my old notes, but I don't think I lost too many species. I have tiny bits of some that should recover.

The problem with the tank is that the lower the pH is (CO2) the more aggressively and frequently the fish spawn. Without CO2 I think they spawned once and they weren't too upset when I vacced up the eggs.

Im thinking about making this a low tech / glut tank because the fish get along better when the pH is higher.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> Tank is looking horrible. I will have to check my old notes, but I don't think I lost too many species. I have tiny bits of some that should recover.
> 
> The problem with the tank is that the lower the pH is (CO2) the more aggressively and frequently the fish spawn. Without CO2 I think they spawned once and they weren't too upset when I vacced up the eggs.
> 
> Im thinking about making this a low tech / glut tank because the fish get along better when the pH is higher.


 I dont think people realize how difficult it is to keep cichlids in a planted tank. There is also a big difference between the various species of cichlids in a planted tank. 

When I saw your photo, I accounted for this difficulty. I dont judge plant growth in a cichlid tank as I would other tanks with a group of micro-fish. 

But, then again, I wasnt interested in the plants when I saw your photos- my eyes are always drawn to fish first. 

I saw a group of amazingly beautiful fish in a backdrop of plants.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

ChrisX said:


> Tank is looking horrible. I will have to check my old notes, but I don't think I lost too many species. I have tiny bits of some that should recover.
> 
> The problem with the tank is that the lower the pH is (CO2) the more aggressively and frequently the fish spawn. Without CO2 I think they spawned once and they weren't too upset when I vacced up the eggs.
> 
> Im thinking about making this a low tech / glut tank because the fish get along better when the pH is higher.


Such is the life of a Cichlid keeper.

They often dictate how "they" want the tank to look as opposed to our own aesthetic preferences. Have you thought about thick leaf(ed) plants like Anubias, Crinums, and Buces? They could be astarting point to get things back on track. I had some large angels who one day decided to chop/kill everything they could and then spawned a week later. Nothing was spared apart from these plants.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

A couple months ago I refilled the CO2 and ran it at a low setting. Haven't fertilzed besides fish food. Tank is overgrown with easy plants. Then this:






I tried growing some brine shrimp but none hatched. I gave them some egg yolk, will see what happens. If they survive a few days I may get some new shrimp and let the parents raise them.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Cool!


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

After another 3 months without CO2 or fertz, I refilled a week ago.

Lost quite a few species. Amazon sword, jungle val, water sprite are the ones that will live without any attention in sand. Also there is a brownish foreground plant that somehow grew from a tiny spring without any attention.

There was a tiny bit of Ambulia alive, a few inches of Pearlweed, stalks of AR "purple" look terrible but are alive. Hygo polysperma took a carpet form.

Bought some AR Rosanvig and Lugwigia Purensis that look almost identical in my tank. Ludwigia was in bad shape with rotting stems, probably a waste of money, need to inspect plants better. Just needed some color.

Running low CO2, medium light, with easy plants to keep it going. Cichlids keep spawning which means I need a dense background for the other fish to hide when that happens. I will have to separate the females out to another tank if I want to get serious about aquascaping this tank.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Also added a Brute 44g reservior for easy water changes. I'm now using a small pump and nylon tubing to empty/fill tanks. 10x easier and faster. Pump and nylon tubing cost $25. Cheaper and better than Python.

This might lead to an RODI system in the future.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

These fry are @ 12 weeks. A few 6 week fry have slipped over the barrier into this side of the tank.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

ChrisX said:


> Also added a Brute 44g reservior for easy water changes. I'm now using a small pump and nylon tubing to empty/fill tanks. 10x easier and faster. Pump and nylon tubing cost $25. Cheaper and better than Python.
> 
> This might lead to an RODI system in the future.


The Brute can and casters are what hurts the purse strings !!! >

I moved to RODI a couple years ago, I'd never go back to tap water.
Have decent tap water where I live but I like knowing everything that's in my water.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

ChrisX said:


> This might lead to an RODI system in the future.


May as well go with a drip system and an overflow while you're at it :grin2: 

I love your video of the fry. I always enjoy watching fish videos. I take the literal worst videos though.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Maryland Guppy said:


> The Brute can and casters are what hurts the purse strings !!! >
> 
> I moved to RODI a couple years ago, I'd never go back to tap water.
> Have decent tap water where I live but I like knowing everything that's in my water.


Casters? What casters?!  Point taken though. (The nylon tubing from the pump is long enough to go everywhere it needs without moving the reservior.)

I don't know why I didn't think of this before. I used a janky saddle valve on a utility sink, 3/8" tubing, and a $7 float from amazon. The pump, nylon tubing and everything came to less than $100.

Will never willingly use a Python again.

If I underatake trying to grow any difficult plants I will upgrade to RODI. I think having a neutral pH is probably important for some plants.

Only plant I really miss losing was the (?) stauragyne bihar. Do you have any of that still? It did well in my tank.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

ChrisX said:


> Casters? What casters?!
> 
> Only plant I really miss losing was the (?) stauragyne bihar.
> Do you have any of that still? It did well in my tank.












Growing out bihar still, I'll let you know, I trimmed really short recently.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Nescea. 

In the store I read a website that says this is "easy", but turns out that may not be the case. To give it the best chance of survivial, its in a soil pot. Also floating a portion.

This does not seem to be the submersed form. Some of the leaves already have black spots and its been in my tank for 12h.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Nesaea now classified as Ammannia.

If I grow these in capped soil with over 100PAR all is good.
To be honest I think would like even more light.

Does not look like a submerged form, from HOT, got the rest of the name?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Nesaea now classified as Ammannia.
> 
> If I grow these in capped soil with over 100PAR all is good.
> To be honest I think would like even more light.
> ...


Nesaea Pedicellata "medium light". I dont think its the golden form although that is what I was hoping for. Its a different color that everything else in the tank.

Everything else is pearling, no algae, seems to be back in high gear.

I came up with a new dosing strategy. Instead of mixing up bottles of solution, I have one of those seven-day pill boxes which I pre fill with dry ferts at the end of the week. 

This way I do not pre mix large concentrations of solution, and I dont have to measure daily allocations from several bottles. I just dump the day's cube into the tank.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Pedicellata would be the golden variety.

HOT had a lot of plants today.
Some are always mislabeled, many that say submerged are not.

I need more plants like a hole in my head, came home with 4 bunches of reds.

Still make solutions but my dosing strategy is way different.
Target the water column levels based on plant consumption.
Testing water a lot in the beginning but more predictive now.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Pedicellata would be the golden variety.
> 
> HOT had a lot of plants today.
> Some are always mislabeled, many that say submerged are not.
> ...


They had alot of reds. Was looking for different colors lol.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Pedicellata would be the golden variety.
> 
> HOT had a lot of plants today.
> Some are always mislabeled, many that say submerged are not.
> ...


I'm going to do something similar, but instead of changing dosing levels, I will just change different % of water at end of week, based on Nitrate test.

There isn't any algae in my tank, there is plenty of pearling, and I was surprised to find Nitrates are 40ppm+. I always thought excess nutrients were the cause of algae and tended to run lean, but now I'm not sure.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

AR "purple" in sand. Puckered and wavy leaf edges. What deficiency is this:

CO2, pH 1.0+ drop. (Has been much higher without any difference)
pH 8.2 tap
EI w/ CSM+B
Mg dosing with water change, per Rotala Butterfly.
Tap KH 2-4 depending on CO2.
EDTA Fe supplement.

*At the same place I was earlier this year. There is something deficient in my tank. Ca? pH too high? Until I get this solved I won't be able to graduate beyond simple plants.*

Currently no algae and Nitrates are 30ppm+.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Chris I wouldn't base too much on the growth of AR. Many have issues with it, myself included.

How is everything else doing?? 

If well, I wouldn't chase AR. There are plenty of plants I bet you can grow quite well. Part of the process is finding those. 

Personally I can grow many different "difficult" plants, but AR and S. Repens elude me. I still try them from time to time, but for whatever reason they never seem to thrive.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Same as above for me with the AR. Tried a few times and varieties, yet cannot find the magic formula. Decided to toss it and enjoy the 20 other species that are growing quite well!


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Greggz said:


> Chris I wouldn't base too much on the growth of AR. Many have issues with it, myself included.
> 
> How is everything else doing??
> 
> ...


Now I remember my thinking from earlier this year; there was a possibility Ca was being precipitated out, the tap just doesn't have enough Ca to balance with the MgSO4, the pH may be too high, and (everyone else's favorite) the CO2 isn't high enough. I've had it low, medium, and high, and still have these issues.

Now that I have the reservior, it would be pretty easy to add RODI. Which could potentially solve a few of those issues. 

There are several things working "against" my tank.. High pH tap water, and sand substrate. I'm not sure I've seen any great tanks with both those things working against it. Not willing to dirt the tank, so RO water and Ca/Mg supplementation may be the next step.


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

I'm also in the same boat with AR. It grew well for the first 3 months, but after that it slowly got worst and worst. At about the same time I realized rather than trying to spend a lot of time and effort with a particular species of plant, just use plants that like the parameters in your tank, it makes life much easier.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

THE UGLY ANGEL

I have had this one since tiny. I've tried to mix with the other two but he always attacks.

I'm trying to integrate in the 75g tank. He fought with gold, now gold, other angels hiding. Now he's attacking keyholes.

Will he calm down, or is it a lost cause? Last time I tried to mix, I pulled him after a couple hours. I might leave him overnight but afraid he will kill the gold angel (who is stunning).


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

I'd be too afraid to leave him lol I've had horrible endings to single nights of mixing cichlids, seems like they always choose to kill their tankmates in the middle of the night or whenever you're not there. Good luck with him, i think he's gorgeous!!


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Plinkploop said:


> I'd be too afraid to leave him lol I've had horrible endings to single nights of mixing cichlids, seems like they always choose to kill their tankmates in the middle of the night or whenever you're not there. Good luck with him, i think he's gorgeous!!


Thanks. I'll take him out. Not worth the risk. Even if they coexist, I like the gold out in the front of the tank, not hiding!


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> Thanks. I'll take him out. Not worth the risk. Even if they coexist, I like the gold out in the front of the tank, not hiding!





ChrisX said:


> Thanks. I'll take him out. Not worth the risk. Even if they coexist, I like the gold out in the front of the tank, not hiding!


I wanted a couple more angels in the 75. I wonder if I get another pair and grow them out in a 50g tank, can they then be added to the 75g main tank? I could put the marble angel in a 29g by himself with some cories.

Are they all crazy aggressive like the marble? The other two I believe are also male and haven't paired, but get along well enough.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

No, they aren't _all_ like your marble, but there's always the risk with any larger bodied cichlid that they are going to throw a hissy fit and hurt their tankmates. Angels that I've kept (altum) have all been individuals and it took a couple months of trial and error to find trio that worked in my 90 gallon hex. I do wonder, though, if overstocking them might help displace aggression. I've never tried with angels before.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Dick's Sporting Goods no longer refills paintball tanks, and in response the local homebrew shop jacked their prices to $18 for a 24oz fill !! So this has required I get a "real" CO2 setp. Found a 10# aluminum tank locally and a place to fill for $23. New regulator should be here today, fingers crossed.

Everything I put in the tank grows. Cant vouch for how "well" it grows, but I don't typically see nutrient deficiencies. The only problem is algae and more algae.

Below is a pic of the AR group I have growing. This was recovered from a small sprig that had gone into hibernation when I was running the tank on low light when I didn't have time to deal with maintenance. The leaves are a good size and its growing well, but just like the glass, lower leaves are covered with algae.  I will use this plant as my barometer for success. 

Now that I have the auto doser, and seeing good growth/pearling, I'm refocusing on basics. Now that I'm not constantly mixing and daily dosing ferts, I have more time to focus on other aspects. Namely, filtration and flow. (And plant choice)

This tank has two canisters, a hw304b and a 302. While they are rated at 525 and 265 gph respectively, videos show that SunSun filters have less flow. The 304b has measured 300gph, and the 302b probably around 150. So 450gph. On a system with 80 gallons that is only 5x turnover/hour. I should be aiming for 10x/hr from what I've read.

I have another old 302b that can be refurbished and put back into service. That would add another 150gph and additional bio media. Probably should just buy another 304b, or figure out an overflow/sump setup.

I also added a new set of sponge filters so hopefully that will do a better job of filtration.

The angel in the pic was a pandemic "rescue", starving in the LFS tank. Nice looking fish, but topped out at this smaller size. Another angel I bought later in the pandemic and raised exactly the same way has gotten quite a bit larger. 

Tank has seven keyholes, two angels, two SAE. Two small feedings a day. I hesitate to feed less although I know that would cut down on organic waste.

I bought a sprig of Willow Hygro with the intent to eventually replace the swords in my tank. Hopefully it will become a fast growing and dense background plant.

TODO
- Add additional filtration for more bio and flow. Stay on top of cleaning. I think the reason the tank has algae is not enough filtration / flow. Look into replacing some of the lava rock with better media.

-Monitor new CO2/regulator system closely.

-Frequent filtration cleaning and media changes

-Purigen

-Grow out Willow Hygro or find another plant to replace the Amazon Swords. (They eventually get too big in a high tech tank and can't be trimmed to a smaller size.( Ive been replanting the plantlets that they throw off and restarting them every six months or so.)


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Here are some tank shots. 

I just realized why everyone uses dark/black substrate! The reason is that many digital cameras can't cope with the contrast between a light substrate and darker background and plants. I personally think a light substrate looks better in person, but it requires a camera with a greater dynamic range. I can only get decent shots when I am up close and focused on specific plant groups (but then you see all the algae too!)

The two pics below are the same phone camera setting, you can see how it changes when I zoom out. Need a better camera.

The left hand side is generally how I want it to be. The right hand side, the amazon swords are not a good fit for this tank. They shade anything in the mid/foreground so makes it difficult for midground plants to grow. I want the hygro poly to form a hedge like it does on the left, but it wont grow backwards under the swords. The plan to fix this is to grow out the willow hygro and replace the swords. The keyhole cichlids use the dense plants as their home. When the light dim low, they all hide in the plants.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

BUBBLE MYSTERY SOLVED

I remember when I set up this tank and was having algae problems, and I told people I was seeing "3BPS", they thought that lack of CO2 was the culprit.

Not all bubbles are created equally.

When setting up the new regulator, I found that 3bps in the tiny bubble counter was very little CO2. When I checked against the tube in a bottle of water, 3 BPS is equal to uncountable bubbles in the tiny bubble counter.

So yes, all along I was getting good pH drop.
Nothing wrong with the pH test.
A 24oz paintball tank will last a good two months if set up correctly.

Whenever I've advised someone about how many BPS I am seeing, multiply that by ten.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

This is where that flow meter is good! You have a legit number/volume that's measured. 

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

chayos00 said:


> This is where that flow meter is good! You have a legit number/volume that's measured.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


A real flow meter would probably be a good purchase, but being able to test the new regulator in the same way I tested the old one got me up to speed quickly.


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## xrayguy (May 11, 2019)

x2 on the flowmeter. Life changer for me. set it and forget it, kinda. Way more reliable than a bubble counter, and way less maintnance.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

xrayguy said:


> x2 on the flowmeter. Life changer for me. set it and forget it, kinda. Way more reliable than a bubble counter, and way less maintnance.


I just looked them up and its not clear to me what a flow meter does/works. Is it something that can be added to an existing regulator? Can it be installed remotely so that you can see flow?

Afaict, a flow meter works in similar fasion to bubble counter, except that it works in the range of flow that we use for large planted tanks.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> I just looked them up and its not clear to me what a flow meter does/works. Is it something that can be added to an existing regulator? Can it be installed remotely so that you can see flow?
> 
> Afaict, a flow meter works in similar fasion to bubble counter, except that it works in the range of flow that we use for large planted tanks.


Yes it can be added inline post regulator. That's where most of us have ours. We mainly use it to set a specific flow level. Vs trying to guess count BPS and as it seems you've found different bubble sizes make a difference too. I still have a bubble counter to use as just a visual indicator that things are working. 

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

chayos00 said:


> Yes it can be added inline post regulator. That's where most of us have ours. We mainly use it to set a specific flow level. Vs trying to guess count BPS and as it seems you've found different bubble sizes make a difference too. I still have a bubble counter to use as just a visual indicator that things are working.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


The way I have been doing my tank, I set the flow to 3 BPS (with tube in a bottle of water). That is uncountable bubbles in the tiny bubble counter.

When I want more CO2, I scale it by making the ON intervals longer. Turn it on earlier in the morning, etc. That way, to calibrate my CO2, I just have to check that I am getting 3 BPS. These cheap single stage regulators dont have a lot of fine control, but once you get them dialed, they don't change IME.

Although it WOULD be nice to have a meter on the side of my tank so I can make a visual check.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I just remembered I had this video. When I bought the angels they were tiny; about the size of a quarter. I had them in my 50g for the first month. After they grew to about the size of a silver dollar, I put them in the 75.

This is what happened. 

I only had them in there for a couple days when I realized they were getting outcompeted for food, so I put them back in the 50g and grew them to their present size.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The mystery of the missing neon.

I have four tanks. Main 75g, 50g on stand next to it, 29g below the 50g, and a temporary 10g set up on the floor.

The 10g has been set up for a couple months. I took the neons out of the 29g so I could temporarily put the bully angel in there.

The 10g has (had) FIVE neons. Its densely planted with VAL so I can't easily do a head count on the neons. However, over the past few weeks I've tried to count and only seen FOUR.

Today when looking in the 50g tank, I saw something suspicious and it was a dead neon! The only other inhabitants of this tank are a big angel, a handicapped keyhole cichlid (no swim bladder), and a handful of cories. Neon was not munched by the cichlids, looked like it had been dead for 1-2 weeks.

The neon couldn't have jumped from the floor 10g to the 55g tank.

I haven't netted anything from the 10g tank since I set it up. I did float some ambulia for a couple days, which went back in the 75g.

The 50g and 10g have WC on the same day. First I use pump to siphon 50% from the 50g. Then I siphon 30% from the 10g and 29g. 

Then I refill tanks from a reservior. First the 50g, then the 29g, then the 10g. 

AFAICT, the neon must have been sucked into the pump when I did the 10g water change. But what I cant figure out is how it got from the 10g to the 50g. Only explanation is that it got sucked through the pump when I was refilling the 50g, but that seems unlikely. The pump grate is smaller than a neon, and the small impeller would have either jammed or chopped up the neon.

Still puzzled on this one. Its almost as mysterious as the two nerite snails I had in a 50g with keyhole cichlids. Keyholes never expressed any interest in the snails. Assuming they killed the snails, I broke down the tank six months later and there was not a trace of either shell. If they had climed out, shells would have been found under stand when I broke it down. Cant imagine nerite shells would decompose over six months or less.

Does anyone else have any unexplained mysteries?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> The mystery of the missing neon.
> 
> I have four tanks. Main 75g, 50g on stand next to it, 29g below the 50g, and a temporary 10g set up on the floor.
> 
> ...


too many to count though some are eventually explained.
Like has some odd catfish (friend moving dumped odd collection of fish on me) that disappeared day 1 never to be seen again.
Since I had plenty of mystery disappearances (tanks have/had glass tops and on tank hoods no jumpers) no big deal.
2 years later it "showed up" never to be seen again. I know not soo mysterious on a heavily planted tank but just odd.
Oh and as above seems I can dump 5 fish in but only 4 get counted days later.
no bodies.. nothing.

I do know the bladder snails will digest them though.
My latest goes like this.. Bought 3 orange guppy males.
One did the usual next day... gone
One was fine for about a week then... dead
Soo went to petco told then the story (including apparently they miscounted some zebras which I didn't notice at first).
Decided to replace the orange males w/ 2 asst. females.
Figured I re-start my guppy orgy and refugee camp.
Well next day.. only 1 female..one ..... gone.
SOP for me I guess.

One still here and the left over pair seems quite happy. 

Reminds me to try to count my Columbian tetras.. Should be 5, bet there are only 4.. 
And clip my jungle down.

As to traveling fish or snails.. nope..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

New things to look at.

Limnophilia Hipporidides. Not in great condition. Stems really tough, leaves shedding. I think this was probably grown emmersed and in the LFS tank a few weeks. Chance of survival, low. Very low. I should have learned my lesson to not buy plants in this state.

Hygro Araguaia. This looks like one of those fast growing plants that is impossible to kill. Looking for something dense and fast growing to replace the swords. This has a silvery look, so it contrasts the other things in the tank.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Came home and found the 75g tank water was an inch lower and the carpet in front of tank pretty wet.

Inside of stand is wet, search for the culprit and (thankfully) its the SunSun 302b filter I just installed a month ago, and not the tank.

The previous 302b I had installed, the coupling mechanism was on its last leg. I replaced with an identical filter. I had the old 302 running on another tank to test it out and noticed wetness, so assumed it was leaking, but now I'm not sure if one or both of them are leaking.

Looks like I have some plumbing to do. This is not a good time for this.

If I can't get the 302b to work without a leak, I will have to put the Griggs reactor on its own pump to keep the CO2 flowing.

What would be the most elegant way to run a griggs reactor without a canister? Is there any way to avoid having an in-tank pump? I could temporarily use my water change pump, but long term I don't want anything that large inside the tank.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Sunsun me once, shame on me....

Week ago, ordered a second 304b to put on the tank, arrived yesterday. Plan was for symmetrical 304+304 and 302 (low flow) for CO2.

Coincidentally, another pool of water on the floor today when I get home. Turns out the replacement 302b is leaking. The original 302 did something similar a month ago. 

So I am ripping everything apart, kneeling in soggy carpet. Not fun.

Install the new SunSun 304b, for a symmetrical flow, and this thing is jet powered, like a hose. 2-3x the flow of the other 304b. 

I don't remember the original 304b with this much power. I've got it aimed back at the glass and lots of stems are leaning over. Same media as the other one.

Which leads me to believe the original 304b is not a real 304b. I never thought it was 525gph. Frankly, I wasn't really sure it was half that. It might be a mislabelled 303. 

302b - Enough to run the CO2. 
Old 304b - Twice that or more.
New 304b- Twice that again.

So.. besides the leaking.. you never know what you are getting with SunSun. 

I have been running the tank these past three years on underpowered filters. If it turns out the additional filtration cures my algae woes, then that is three years lost to underperforming equipment. Sure I saved $100-200 bucks, but its just not worth it.


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## xrayguy (May 11, 2019)

I just switched over from my last sun sun to another fluval filter. Beside the difference difference in power I've also noticed how much quieter the fluval is.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Some more thoughts on algae.

Tank is in flux with equipment all over the floor, while I dry out the carpet. The leaking filter is running in a bucket so I still have CO2, even though it is losing water (although not as much as I thought).

Because of this, there was a problem with the air pump which usually goes on at 7pm. This morning, fish are breathing heavily, but also I noticed a definite up tick in algae. I wonder if there is any correlation with stagnant (low O2) water and algae? My tank has very little surface exchange, with the goal of conserving CO2. Should I run more CO2 with more agitation?

Another thing I noticed is that while the glass and plastic tubes in the tank have a light coating of algae, the lift tube for the new filter is completely clean! This tells me that algae somehow seeds a surface , and even if it is not visible, it is more prone to develop in the future. Which tells me I should probably look into an H2O2 treatment of the tank at some point, in hopes of truly cleansing the glass and hardware of algae. I am planning to temporarily rehome all the fish into the 50g tank and do a strong H2O2 treatment in the near future. I just haven't had the time/motivation.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

From my experience with walstads stagnation is definitely an algae factor. I have noticed _some_ issues in high tech settings but I don't often go without surface agitation/ good flow in any tank that's not a walstad so I cant truly attest in that setting.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

This morning replaced the O-rings on the SunSun canister. Still running it in a bucket to make sure it is not leaking.

The new plants are doing well.

Limnophilia Hipporidides seems to be a fast and attractive grower. I have a spot picked out for this. If the growth continues at this rate and color, it will be a star in my tank!

The Hygro Araguaia was apparently emersed growth; its taking on a new form in my tank with reddish leaves. Research shows that this is what it is, a low creeping, reddish plant. This will probably have a similar creeping growth to the Hygro Poly in my tank. I am imagining that I can cultivate it into a contrasting midground hedge.

The Willow Hygro I got a couple weeks ago is slowly starting to put out new nodes. Not gangbusters growth, but it may start to do what I want, as a replacement for the swords. I want a bushy/dense background plant that is fast growing, that serves as cover for the cichlids, that can be casually trimmed when growth gets out of hand, but that doesn't need to be replanted. 

The Rotala Indica (behind) is showing good growth, but it is sideways growth. I've read other people have similar problem with this. I wonder if it is surrounded by other stems if it will "reach for the light"? Right now it is in the open.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Strangely, with the new filter, I have much more algae than normal at the end of the week. Not just glass algae, but a layer on top of the spray bar. Why? Despite the leak in the filter, the water chemistry was constant.

In the new filter, I used a stack of sponges, followed by lava rock. Its possible that the lava rock releases something into the water. It has been theorized that lava rock releases iron. Maybe other things.

This is a variable I need to eliminate. Replacing lava rock with pot scrubbies.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> Strangely, with the new filter, I have much more algae than normal at the end of the week. Not just glass algae, but a layer on top of the spray bar. Why? Despite the leak in the filter, the water chemistry was constant.
> 
> In the new filter, I used a stack of sponges, followed by lava rock. Its possible that the lava rock releases something into the water. It has been theorized that lava rock releases iron. Maybe other things.
> 
> This is a variable I need to eliminate. Replacing lava rock with pot scrubbies.


@Greggz Has made a correlation between too much flow in his tank and algae. 

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

chayos00 said:


> @Greggz Has made a correlation between too much flow in his tank and algae.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


Maybe, but I thought that was in areas of flow?

This is GDA and water column algae, as in too much light or nutrient.

All I can do is try to change a variable I haven't tried before and see if it works. Sometimes I feel like I have a new insight. Now that my macro/micro dosing is automated, I am more confident in that.

When I lower the light, there is tolerable algae, but I can't grow any interesting plants.

Long term constants: Low flow, lava rock. Both of those things have been removed from my tank. Will have to see how this works.

Things changed over past year:

Additional filtration, more flow
Sponge media that is easier to clean than floss.
Removed all lava rock
Auto dosing
10# CO2 tank

I am going to try to keep it super clean, high flow, on top of nutrients, see if it fixes things. If not, I will go back to my suspicion that something is in the water and go to RODI.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

With the water leak and adding a new canister, reorganized the cabinet. The airpump and auto doser are on top of the canopy now; there just isnt enough room in here without jamming things in crevices. I would still like to figure out a better way to arrange the hoses.

Flow should now be approaching normal for a planted tank this size. Filters are "rated" at 525 + 525 + 265, but I know that isn't true. Its probably more along the lines of 300 +200 + 100. 600gph on a system with 85g approaches respectable. It was only half that the past three years.

I removed all the lava rock. Two new trays and one old tray, replaced with pot scrubbies. Canisters are sponge stack, one tray of ceramic, two trays of scrubbies. Can easily fit 12 scrubbies in a tray. I'm hoping once the new media gets seeded, I see new levels of clarity.

TODO
The new filter's spray bar runs along the right side of the tank. The new design of the SunSun hardware is not articulating, which means this is the only way that it can be installed with a canopy. The flow is aimed back at the glass, but there is more local turbulence than I would like. Probably will drill out the holes to see if it makes flow more gradual.

The old hoses have hard dark algae deposits. Need to figure out how/if to clean them or just replace.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

This is a week's growth of the Limno H. I'm trying to figure out if this is good, or if it shows any deficiencies.

The color of the stems and old leaves was dark purple. The lighting is lower in this pic, but I would say the color is now mostly reddish.

The new leaves look good and are dense. The prior leaves are much smaller (maybe emmersed growth?) I still can't tell if the node lengths are shortening. It looks like the upper nodes eventually lengthen, but they aren't pushing height, mostly new leaves. The new leaves are much bigger than the old ones.

Very soon I will discard some of the lower stem and replant these in the back, but I have a feeling that there should be more stem growth, less leaf growth. 

I'm not discouraged yet, but I have a feeling once they are replanted I will wish there was more stem growth so I could turn them over faster. In the same time period, Ambulia will grow 3-4x as much.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Limnophilia Hipporidides moved to the background. It is showing really attractive growth, though not as fast as I would expect.

The Rotala in front of it, is growing well, but what happens the stems get to about 5" inches and then they bend sideways and grow outward. Wish I knew what this meant. It may be the variety I'm dealing with or a deficiency.

The Hygro Araguaia was purchased in emmersed form and is transitioning. I chopped it into shorter stems in hopes that it will take on a mid ground character. The majority of the stems will need to be replaced with new growth, hopefully it will root and do something interesting. I think this stuff has alot of transitioning and development before it is presentable, if ever. This is probably one of those things that is best to buy as a tissue culture.

The Willow Hygro is in place in front of the swords. The plan is to slowly remove swords as the willow fills in. It will serve a similar purpose as a dense background bush, but with finer leaves more suited to a high tech tank.









New filtration, there is definitely less algae although a few days ago I had what appeared to be a mini cycle, even though water tested fine. (Water was cloudy for inexplicable reason). New maintenance routine, I clean one canister per week during water change. Its a PITA honestly. I understand why people use a sump; the whole canister, having to dismantle it, dump it out, put it back together.... Yeah. At least the sponge stacks seem to be containing the waste to the bottom.


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