# Need help- Algae and lack of growth- tank deteriorated significantly last 6 months!!



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Careful with the Excel as it's likely to kill your Vals.

Looks like your stem plants got leggy due to lack of light at the bottom of the tank.

I'd guess that the Vals and the Crypts stopped growing from lack of nutrients- giving them some root tabs would probably help. Your stems also are probably nutrient-deficient due to your heavy water change regimen. I'd either back down on water changes to once a month, or if you're afraid that would compromise the water quality too much for the fish, start dosing ferts.


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## phorty (Aug 2, 2010)

lauraleellbp said:


> Careful with the Excel as it's likely to kill your Vals.
> 
> Looks like your stem plants got leggy due to lack of light at the bottom of the tank.
> 
> I'd guess that the Vals and the Crypts stopped growing from lack of nutrients- giving them some root tabs would probably help. Your stems also are probably nutrient-deficient due to your heavy water change regimen. I'd either back down on water changes to once a month, or if you're afraid that would compromise the water quality too much for the fish, start dosing ferts.


Thanks for the response!! I was thinking lack of light could be a culprit. So I actually replaced both bulbs with 6500k 40W replacements from Home Depot 2 months ago. Didn't make any difference. The thing that kills me is that they were doing so well for several months, not leggy at all with all their leaves.

Will Excel kill the Vals? I thought at worse it would just cause the leaves to fall off and then they would grow back. I was just trying to use Excel agressively to kill the algae.

To tell you the truth, the Crypts seem to be doing okay now, growing slowly but better than the other plants. The Java Ferns are also okay. The Moss is really overrun by the algae.

I never thought of slowing down the water change schedule. I always thought changing water helped most freshwater tanks issues. I try to keep up with it as a way to get rid of the algae I scrape off the glass. I remember my problems started after a period of stretching water changes to 2 weeks and I figued the algae was my punishment!!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

It's all about finding balance- and that can be a tricky thing. You might experiement a bit with your water changes to find what works best for your tank. Sometimes water changes cause fluctuations in CO2 levels, which can trigger algae, or they can remove too many nutrients for the plants, or if you go too long they can leave excess nutrients in the tank... every tank is different so it takes a bit of trial and error.

When I dosed my 90gal with Excel some time ago it killed off my Vals and they died completely, I had to buy new ones to replace them. Others report that their Vals did grow back, and some have reported that their Vals didn't change at all with Excel dosing... so YMMV for sure! lol

If it's really the moss that's having algae issues I'd probably use a syringe or eyedropper and just "spot treat" it directly rather than dosing the whole tank. That tends to be pretty effective.

I'm looking at your stocking and I'd probably add in some smaller algae eaters in addition to the BN plecos- Amano shrimp, nerite snails, and/or Otos- to also help keep things in check.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

What is your substrate? Sounds like some natural ferts have petered out. I wonder if T8 bulbs would get more light down to the substrate. What about the reflector, can it be improved?


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## Lee (Feb 13, 2007)

I would not use Excel. It's hard if not impossible to maintain the right levels of fertilizer in the tank for over a long period of time, with terrible effects if you don't. its way easier to just not use artificial products like Excel at all. I remember using it in a crypt tank of mine. It melted all the plants I had. Trying to make my plants grow a little faster, I ended up killing them all in one day. so much for progress. Also from your video the light looks a little bright, it could be from the sand.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

When you do a water change you introduce CO2 along with tne new water. That CO2 quickly goes to the plants and is lost at the water surface. That fluctuating level of CO2 in the tank tends to encourage algae to grow. If you are dosing Excel at the same time, regularly, every day, that should prevent the algae from reacting to the CO2 changes. Or, without Excel, just add makeup water when needed, but don't do big water changes at all.

It seems like you exhausted the nutrients in the substrate, whatever substrate you have. Root tabs should take care of that. But, you barely have enough light for the plants, at best. You either need a 3rd T8/T12 bulb, or a different light fixture that uses T5NO bulbs.


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## Rubiks_Coop (Oct 1, 2010)

Hydrogen Peroxide! I've heard you can spot treat with it. I personally took out my hair algae infested javamoss out of the tank and gave it a bath in a mixture of water and some peroxide. The hair algae was gone in a few days and my moss is back to normal... Don't know if you can do that on this... but just a suggestion! Good luck! roud:


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## phorty (Aug 2, 2010)

Thanks again for the responses people! I also forgot to mention in the beginning that I reduced my lighting from 12 hours per day to 9 hours per day when the algae first became an issue.

I am using medium grain silica sand, basically the same as pool filter sand.

Someone asked if the algae is just in the java moss. No, it's pretty much on all of my vals and all the old leaves on the cypts as well as my driftwood. The Cypts do seem to be growing decently again and all the new shoots and leaves are algae free. I did a cleaning yesterday and cut out most of the algae covered leaves and scraped the glass. I held off on my water change as I'm going to experiment with slighly less frequent changes. I'll try a 40% change every 2 weeks and see how that goes. My increased attention to the matter appears to have helped. I think I'll keep at it with the Excel as the tank is clearing up a bit. The Vals seem to be surviving the Excel and even sent off a new runner that sprouted. And I've added a few root tabs- dang those things aren't cheap!

As far a spot treating goes, do you use a watered-down mix of excel? I was thinking of making an excel bath and pooring it over my driftwood when cleaning the tank.

I'm on the hunt for some Otos. Can T8 bulbs go in a T12 fixture?


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

phorty said:


> Can T8 bulbs go in a T12 fixture?


Yes, they are interchangeable.


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## phorty (Aug 2, 2010)

Hoppy said:


> Yes, they are interchangeable.


Cool, if that's an upgrade I might try that. I don't mind adding more power to my lights but I absolutely want to stay out of the needing CO2 range and keep it low tech.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

phorty said:


> I also forgot to mention in the beginning that I reduced my lighting from 12 hours per day to 9 hours per day.
> I am using medium grain silica sand


I do a split period when fighting algae. Three hours on > three off > three hours on.

Sand is inert. Thus wondering if the water company started treating the water differently.


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## phorty (Aug 2, 2010)

How about this possibility? It seems that right around the time the Vals took off and started sending off runners like crazy, the growth for the Hornwort and Moneywort nearly stopped. Could the Vals be using up all the nutrients in the tank?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

phorty said:


> It seems that right around the time the Vals took off and started sending off runners like crazy, the growth for the Hornwort and Moneywort nearly stopped. Could the Vals be using up all the nutrients in the tank?


Yes, for some plants are better at absorbing nutrients than others are. I read this somewhere by Tom Barr. Focus on what other things the plants need. Light, CO2/Excel and nutrients. Tom Barr alias Plantbrain. I have found this to be true. Too slow the algae down until the plants catch up I split the light periods into 2.


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## phorty (Aug 2, 2010)

I wanted to give you all an update. I stood the course overdosing with Excel, have been keeping algae off the glass, and I've kept up with trimming plants with algae growth on their leaves. Seems to have really helped and the tank is looking much better after a month of this treatment. I also slowed down my water changes. My nitrates were still around 10 after 2 weeks without a change when I measured last night. So I just topped off the tank and cleaned the pre-filter foams. That would be great if I can stretch changes out to monthly!

Then, over the last week or so, I added to my java fern so it's now covering most areas of the driftwood in the middle of the tank. I also got 2 bunches of Wisteria for the back corners. I hear that fills in quickly and is low maint so it will give me the dense looks I want for the tank. I've also started adding some regular flourish liquid fert, 2 capfuls per week, and a few root tabs.

Future plans- I'm going to swap in 2 T8 bulbs into my T12 fixture. Should I try for 6500k bulbs? I plan to try Home Depot. I'm also considering the splitting of the photo periods mostly due to the fact that I'll be around more when the lights are on haha. Would 5 hours on, 5 off, 5 on, then 9 off for nighttime work? 

Check out this YouTube (I can't figure out how to embed it so click the link)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yepXNDWmRf8

I also went photo crazy so check it out:


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Looks great!

Your Bolivians are very nice. roud:


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## phorty (Aug 2, 2010)

Thanks!

And regarding my tank, I think I might just give in and buy a real light:
http://www.petblvd.com/cgi-bin/pb/ESU58123.html

Any reason not to pull the trigger? I think this will work without CO2 but be a significant upgrade and provide better growth.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

phorty said:


> I'm going to swap in 2 T8 bulbs into my T12 fixture. Should I try for 6500k bulbs? I plan to try Home Depot. I'm also considering the splitting of the photo periods. Would 5 hours on, 5 off, 5 on, then 9 off for nighttime work?


I think 1 6500k and a Coralife ColorMax would look nice. The Coralife ColorMax is 12.22 (including shipment) here. I think it would be better to have 5hrs on, 5hrs off, and 5hrs, on.

Loved the music at you tube.


phorty said:


> I might just give in and buy a real light:
> http://www.petblvd.com/cgi-bin/pb/ESU58123.html


I think the Solarmax dual light system, which is at the same website, would work better for it has a better reflector. Thus light will penetrate deeper.
Here it is over a Jacobs 20G using a SolarMax light.


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## phorty (Aug 2, 2010)

Ah, I see this one. And it also has the LED's that a lot of people like:
http://www.petblvd.com/cgi-bin/pb/DBL42248.html


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Oops got posted 2xs. Got to go eat something. Got stuck on the computer at 11am


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## Liquid_Pyro (May 26, 2010)

Tank is looking great!


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## phorty (Aug 2, 2010)

Hey all, wanted to give you an update. So in the last month+ I've made lots of changes but I'm still not seeing growth and algea is a huge problem- I upgraded to a T5NO fixture, added lots more plants, and added 5 Oto Cats and 10 Cardinals. I also split my Angel pair up by removing the aggresive female. However, it's looks like the remaining 2 might be pairing up anyway haha. I've also split the photo period- I now run the lights from 7am to 12pm and then from 6pm to 11pm for 10 hours total.

Here is a video from last night, check out all the algea on the Wisteria leaves in the corners of the tank:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U6cT4VODfc

Standard 55 gallon
T5NO Coralife with 2 28 watt bulbs
100 watt Stealth heater- 76 degrees
1 AC70 and 1 AC110 for filtration
40% water changes every 2 or 3 weeks on average
0 Amonia and 0 Nitrites, Nitrates usually around 10
Lake Michigan water source which is high in pH, mine is a stable 8.0
Dosing- one cap of Flourish per week, one cap of Excel per day spot treated, 10 fresh root tabs spread around the tank put in 2 weeks ago

Current stocking:
2 Angelfish
2 Bolivian Rams
6 Peppered Cories
1 BN Pleco
14 Harliquin Rasboras
10 Cardinal Tetras
5 Otocinclus (Oto cats)

I'm still having algae issues. I slowed down my Excel dosing shortly after I started this thread, probably adding 2 capfuls per week. But algae got bad again and in the last 2 weeks, I've gone back to 1 cap per day, using a syringe to spot treat the trouble areas. It seems to help that area but I can't imagine I could tackle all the algea on all the plants with just 1 cap per day. Take a look at the video- you can see algea all over the Java Fern and wood in the middle and on the wisteria in the corners. I thought Wisteria was a super fast growing weed but mine has barely grown except for one in plant on the left. I even bought some Anacharis and planted them in the front left corner and they haven't grown at all either.

Any ideas on what I can do to?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

phorty said:


> So in the last month+ I've made lots of changes but I'm still not seeing growth and algea is a huge problem- I upgraded to a T5NO fixture, added lots more plants, and added 5 Oto Cats and 10 Cardinals. I now run the lights from 7am to 12pm and then from 6pm to 11pm for 10 hours total.


Start by cutting down the light time to 3hrs 2xs a day. For the lights are the engine. I think dosing potassium sulfate would help. Here at LNT cheapest. Plus at present shipping is *free*.


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## phorty (Aug 2, 2010)

6 hours a day only? I haven't ever heard of dosing potassium sulfate. What's the rationale behind that?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

phorty said:


> 6 hours a day only? I haven't ever heard of dosing potassium sulfate. What's the rationale behind that?


Lights are the engine so you decrease them then increase when algae starts to decrease. Leaves of some of the plants are curling in, which happens when potassium is deficient. Plants Cypts, Moneywort, and Vals need sulfate thus dose potassium sulfate. Thinking 1Tbs daily for a week. Then 2 Tbs weekly would help.

This nutrient is necessary for cell development and protein synthesis. It is rarely available to plants as tap water contains little or no potassium.


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## phorty (Aug 2, 2010)

I see, thanks for the info. I'll decrease the light starting tomorrow and order some of the Potassium. How much time in between my two 3 hour sessions would you recommend? I'd like to run the for 3 hours in the morning and then 3 at night to maximize viewing pleasure but maybe that's too big of a break...

Would a black out period help my plants get a jump start on the algea?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

phorty said:


> I see, thanks for the info. I'll decrease the light starting tomorrow and order some of the Potassium. I'd like to run the for 3 hours in the morning and then 3 at night to maximize viewing pleasure but maybe that's too big of a break...


Best to have 3hrs on/ 3hrs off/ 3hrs on. My favorite source of potassium sulfate is Brightwell Aquatics FlorinK. Here LNT selling it with no shipping charge until Dec 12. Most I've seen their shipping cost to be since May is $3


phorty said:


> Would a black out period help my plants get a jump start on the algea?


I didn't have any success doing the black out. Some have success with it. Some loose a lot of plants doing it.


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## phorty (Aug 2, 2010)

Rubiks_Coop said:


> Hydrogen Peroxide! I've heard you can spot treat with it. I personally took out my hair algae infested javamoss out of the tank and gave it a bath in a mixture of water and some peroxide. The hair algae was gone in a few days and my moss is back to normal... Don't know if you can do that on this... but just a suggestion! Good luck! roud:


So my algae has been as bad as ever. I pulled out the driftwood in the middle of the tank and did the hydrogen peroxide treatment to them. We'll see in a few days if it worked.

Also, I'm back on the 50% weekly water changes. I've had nothing but trouble since I stopped doing that so I'm going back.


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## phorty (Aug 2, 2010)

Hey guys, I wanted to give an update.

I pulled out all the stem plants since they didn't survive. The java fern and java moss are doing decently on the drift wood. Other than that, the only other plants I have are the crypts. I cut the algae ridden vals down and they haven't grown back. One crypt which was in an area right under the AC110 where there was lots of current has done well and looks healthy. The other ones are alive but not thriving or growing much. I decided that I might need more water movement and replaced the AC70 with a Emperor 400. It's been a week so far so we'll see if it helps.

I'll post a new video shortly after a water change this weekend.

My bristle nose died a few days ago. I was never particularly impressed with the algae cleanup of the 2 bristlenoses I've had in the tank the last few years. My Angels killed off the Oto Cats I tried to introduce. Any other idea for algae eaters? Would the Angels eat shrimp? I hear some nerite snails might work. I might try another BN or two but I thought I'd look into other options.


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## Paragon (Jan 16, 2011)

Your angels are beautiful. Great coloring and patterning. I'm sorry to hear that the rest of the tank is struggling. Have you done the recommended light cycling? Is it worth it to cut down on filtration but keep a good current?


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## Budget aquarist (Feb 1, 2011)

If you can find them, try to get an SIAMESE on "CHINESE" algae eater, the siamese is the only algae eater which makes a dent in bad situations like this (LOTS OF PERSONAL EXPERIENCE), but make sure you get siamese algae eaters not chinese, because they look very similar, though the saimese eats lots of algae and grows to be 5-6" and peaceful, but but chinese algae eaters (they are fun, but not good in a tank like yours) eat mainly algae when they are small ( 1-3") and all detritus (some algae mostly just waste) when they get large and and nasty! I see you live in chicago, do you live near an Aquarium Adventure? they have great products and service. even though without the fish club discount thingy it is a bit pricy.


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## phorty (Aug 2, 2010)

Paragon said:


> Have you done the recommended light cycling? Is it worth it to cut down on filtration but keep a good current?


I basically swapped the AquaClear 70 for the Emperor 400 so I think I upped filtration and current in one move. Although, I'm not huge on the emperor yet since I can't figure out a way to do a good pre-filter and the puts out hundreds of tiny bubbles that I've been led to believe are from the bio-wheels. What is "light cycling"?



Budget aquarist said:


> If you can find them, try to get an SIAMESE on "CHINESE" algae eater, the siamese is the only algae eater which makes a dent in bad situations like this... I see you live in chicago, do you live near an Aquarium Adventure? they have great products and service.


I haven't been to Aquarium adventure so I'll check it out. I'll keep SAE's in mind. Currently, my algae seems somewhat under control and I just picked up a couple young BN's from the breeder that supplied my Angels and corys. I'm not getting much growth out of my crypts but I just replaced my dead Vals with some "Mexican Oak Leaf" and they are growing. I also got some Anacharins and I can't get them to grow at all for some reason.

I just made a new video last night. My videos seem to get worse and worse quality. The sand just comes of so bright:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wuho_MRzdDU

Feeding:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfH5zG4sz1s


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

What are your nitrates? Potassium nitrate, KNO3, may help. Also the crypts need root tabs. Seachem tabs would be best. Here $9.53 with no shipping cost.


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## phorty (Aug 2, 2010)

Nitrates are between 10 and 20 and drop after a water change. I do use root tabs. I have some API ones that are about used up and some RootMedic ones to use after that.

I seem to have struck some sort of balance right now. I change about 40% of the water every 10 days. I'll dose one capful of Florish and one capful of Potassium Sulfate every 5 days.

I'm going to a local swap meet this weekend (gcca.net). One seller will have Apisto Borellis and Cacatuiodes. I was thinking of picking up a few. Any recommendations based on my set-up?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

phorty said:


> Nitrates are between 10 and 20 and drop after a water change.
> 
> I'm going to a local swap meet this weekend (gcca.net). One seller will have Apisto Borellis and Cacatuiodes. I was thinking of picking up a few. Any recommendations based on my set-up?


Ok, so nitrates good. How about a siesta period on you lights, like 4hrs with lights on 4hrs 2x. 

Apistos need hiding places. A big piece of driftwood may give it some hiding places. They are shy fellas.


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