# Shadow panda or regular panda????



## Jasonchen (Jan 24, 2007)

Hi everyone 
I got 3 shadow pandas from a power seller here they are gorgeous but my friend come over and he said only one is shadow the other two are just regular panda.......I am so confused...Can you guys help me check them for me????? 
No1








No2








No3








My friend told me these two are just regular panda








Three together


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

I would say he might be right... They do not look like juvis or peewees. So they should be colored blue more ro will color more.


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## Jasonchen (Jan 24, 2007)

sbarbee54 said:


> I would say he is right... They do not look like juvis or peewees. So they should be colored blue more


what? who? my friend is right or seller?
shrimp size is 3/4 to 1 inch now...


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

they might be offspring of shadow panda. would that make them shadows?


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

How long have the shrimp been in your tank? You can see a bit of blue on the edges where it turns black again. It might be stress if they're relatively new to the tank, I'm guessing.


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## Jasonchen (Jan 24, 2007)

wicca27 said:


> they might be offspring of shadow panda. would that make them shadows?


offspring of shadow panda??? what's that mean?? means they have the shadow gene only? but I thought I got shadow...at least I paid for shadow panda not shadow gene..:frown:


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## Jasonchen (Jan 24, 2007)

mjbn said:


> How long have the shrimp been in your tank? You can see a bit of blue on the edges where it turns black again. It might be stress if they're relatively new to the tank, I'm guessing.


They been in my tank for 3 weeks already....
All of them really active and never stop picking something from the soil...
There coloration is much brighter than when I just got them..especially on the black bands


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

I'd contact the seller and ask about it. I'm sure they would know what's up.


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## cookymonster760 (Apr 30, 2011)

i have to say tough those shrimps do look super healthy what kind of subtrate is that


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## Jasonchen (Jan 24, 2007)

cookymonster760 said:


> i have to say tough those shrimps do look super healthy what kind of subtrate is that


Yes...they are perfectly healthy everytime when I feed my shrimp they always the first one to get it...
That is ADA amazonia soil...


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## deaf123 (Dec 14, 2011)

I've spoken to well known breeders, and if you have bred BKK and panda you will know that if they are stressed they will turn blue. when they berry up and are about to molt they will show blue then lose it. Real Blue pandas show blue from a young age and only get darker and thicker blue as they age and don't lose it. 
It looks to me like you probably got scammed.


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## zxc (Nov 10, 2009)

deaf123 said:


> I've spoken to well known breeders, and if you have bred BKK and panda you will know that if they are stressed they will turn blue. when they berry up and are about to molt they will show blue then lose it. Real Blue pandas show blue from a young age and only get darker and thicker blue as they age and don't lose it.
> It looks to me like you probably got scammed.


 
Hi, can u ask well known breeder, does she/he has some pic to compare regard fake blue bolt VS real blue bolt? please


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## Senior Shrimpo (Dec 4, 2010)

No3 I'd call a shadow. The other two? No way Jose.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Since it's me that Jason is putting on blast, I will respond with what I know and the facts of what I posted on my sale thread about this shrimp and my PM's with Jason well ahead, before he actually paid for the shrimp. 

Secondly, all of them had at least a hint of blue. Some like #1 and #2 posted above do have blue if you look hard enough (in person), and yes these came from my reputable German source, well known shrimp breeder Micha Nadal, so there is no reason for anybody to doubt that these are "fake". 

Jason - if you are truly unhappy about these shrimp, you know I am easy to communicate with and always online via PM or email. Why didn't you try contacting me? 

_____________________________

Facts:

This is what I posted in my FS thread for all to see before I even started selling any of these shrimp:

*Shadow Panda - $75/shrimp or 3 for $210 (unsexed). Some are much bluer than others, but they are all tinted blue. *

And this is what I told Jason via PM well before he paid for the shrimp:

*The Shadow Pandas will have different intensity of blue. However, all of them will be somewhat blue*

___________________________

I'm gathering some more facts about these shrimp from my source for everyone so bare with me. I'll post information as I get it.


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## deaf123 (Dec 14, 2011)

Regular pandas will show small blue speckles, and blue that looks like it's bled from the black edges.
See a pic from from Practical Fishkeeping:









Two of them are definitely not "tinted" blue. If they were at some point, then it was probably due to environmental factors.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Deaf,

Can I ask you to please refrain from attempting to defame me? I have nothing to hide nor am I trying to "scam" anyone. 

As I've stated, I have contacted my source regarding this topic so bare with me while I gather more facts. 

Thank you,

Nick


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

speedie408 said:


> And this is what I told Jason via PM well before he paid for the shrimp:
> 
> *The Shadow Pandas will have different intensity of blue. However, all of them will be somewhat blue*
> 
> ...


If you would have posted pictures of these less blue "shadow pandas" at least people would have known about what they might be getting. It looks like a bait and switch when the pictures of the Pandas in your FS thread have plenty of blue, but then the ones you send out have almost none. "Somewhat" seems like BS to me if it just means a tiny speck.


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## deaf123 (Dec 14, 2011)

I am not trying to defame you, just stating the facts. If you had previous knowledge as to whether they were, or were not shadow pandas, is between you and the buyer.


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## hedge_fund (Jan 1, 2006)

They all look like shadow pandas to me. The blue does vary from shrimp to shrimp.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Jason, 

I am going to take care of you. Please PM me. I apologize if these are indeed not real blue pandas. They could have been accidental pics from the breeder, who knows. I will send you replacements on me after I get my next shipment in March. 

Believe me when I say this, I am not trying to scam anyone. Look at my reputation here on this forum. Why would I? 

Best,

Nick


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

My first post was not wored right my fault, I was busy doing to many things at once. If these are from Nick, I have talked to many people who have bought shrimp from him, and highly reccomend him. I do not think he would have sold you anything less that what you ordered. And now that I am on my HD computer screen there is blue in them, let the stress work out and see what happens when they molt. I bet this is a big deal over nothing.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

EKLiu said:


> If you would have posted pictures of these less blue "shadow pandas" at least people would have known about what they might be getting. It looks like a bait and switch when the pictures of the Pandas in your FS thread have plenty of blue, but then the ones you send out have almost none. "Somewhat" seems like BS to me if it just means a tiny speck.


If my text discretion wasn't enough for you, I obviously can't please you. Don't buy from me, simple as that. I take great care of my customers! Ask any one of them. What are you trying to insinuate here sir?


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

Deaf this definatly should have been handled in private messages, not a post on the forum.


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## hedge_fund (Jan 1, 2006)

Yup, this thread should have never been started.


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

I bought a large batch of Shadow Bee/Pandas from Nick when these first went on sale. He did specify in his for sale thread that some were more blue than others. Here are pics of mine from last week. You can see the shrimp on the right hand side is not as blue as the center shrimp. I felt I was fully disclosed prior to my purchase. The great thing about your pics is that 2 of 3 of your TB appears to be females. I'd keep them if I were you even just for the ratio.












deaf123 said:


> I've spoken to well known breeders, and if you have bred BKK and panda you will know that if they are stressed they will turn blue. when they berry up and are about to molt they will show blue then lose it. Real Blue pandas show blue from a young age and only get darker and thicker blue as they age and don't lose it.
> It looks to me like you probably got scammed.


I was told this exact statement by a well known breeder when I first purchased my shrimps a month ago almost verbatim. Then I was told the same statement by two other people that are connected to the same breeder. So I think we all are paraphrasing information by the same source. How many breeders in North America would have enough experience with Taiwan Bees and deal with enough numbers to see the different variation to make a statement like this? Same thing with the "real" and "fake" blue bolt post that was edited.

For me personally, terms like "real" and "fake" is 80% marketing 10% information and 10% opinion. There's no real value for the regular hobbyist in the previous statement that will help us accelerate the shrimp keeping level in the US. Information that would be of value is further clarification of methods on how to keep these Taiwan Bees alive and what crosses causes the different variations.

Questions that comes to my mind from this thread and that would further my shrimp keeping knowledge and help people that are trying to breed TB:

1) Do "real" and "fake" Shadow Bees come from the same parents? 
2) If not what cross will produce Shadow Bees that improve their blue over time versus a weaker blue coloration? 
3) Same questions for real and fake blue bolts. 
4) Is the "real" versions a lower percentage variation out of the same stock. 
5) What shrimp crosses will only produce pandas without blues? 
6) What shrimp crosses will produce the blues? 
7)Are Blue Bolts the key to obtaining blue off springs in Taiwan Bee colonies?

Unfortunately shrimp breeders especially commercial ones are notoriously guarded about their secrets to protect their business. That I understand. But I don't like being told what is "fake" or "real" without further explanation of why. Once someone breeds for profit there will always be motivation to promote your own product versus the competition, thus my skepticism of information told to me by commercial breeders or second hand information heard through commercial breeders. There are ways to educate the public with out revealing secrets of the business. The more information that is available to the public the better positioned the average hobbyist will be to make future buying decisions.


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## Jorge_Burrito (Nov 10, 2010)

I agree that all three have some blue in them, but just a tiny bit in two. It looks like their is still some issues to be worked out in this strain in breeding a consistent nice uniform blue color. They should all contain the genes to put out nice offspring, but Taiwan Bees still have to be culled like any other strain does to continue to get progress towards certain looks or attributes (please sell the culls at least though, those are still some very nice shrimp).

I have ordered from Speedie as well and have had no issues at all, I have full confidence he will make things right.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

speedie408 said:


> If my text discretion wasn't enough for you, I obviously can't please you. Don't buy from me, simple as that. I take great care of my customers! Ask any one of them. What are you trying to insinuate here sir?


I am not insinuating anything here. It looks like a bait and switch. That probably was not the intent, but that's what it looks like to the buyer. And yes I don't plan on buying any shrimp from you.

The point I was trying to make was that if you had posted various pictures of your shadow bee stock (including the not so shadowy ones) that people would know what to expect. When you post a few pictures of shrimp with a lot of blue in your FS thread, and then send out shrimp that look like regular Pandas, people are going to feel cheated.


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## deaf123 (Dec 14, 2011)

> Deaf this definatly should have been handled in private messages, not a post on the forum.


I am not sure why you are focusing on me. I didn't even know who the seller was before he identified himself(it's not like I am out to get him). It's a fact that regular pandas can show blue edges, and even blue mottling in the white stripes. Does that make them a "shadow" panda? 
What's of concern to me is that the OP paid for shadow pandas and not regular pandas. If it was a mistake, fine, I am sure speedie will take care of it. But the OP was asking a question, and from where I sit these look like regular pandas - and after all that's what we pay for, the look. They very well could be culls from shadow panda, but they certainly aren't a grade I'd expect for shadow panda price.

I am certainly not the only person in the thread who didn't think they were shadows. You guys need to chill out.


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

deaf123 said:


> It's a fact that regular pandas can show blue edges, and even blue mottling in the white stripes. Does that make them a "shadow" panda?....
> 
> ....They very well could be culls from shadow panda, but they certainly aren't a grade I'd expect for shadow panda price.


Deaf123 it sounds like you know a lot about Taiwan Bees please continue the sharing of information. Are there such thing as shadow panda culls? Please confirm that shadow pandas and regular pandas are usually from the same stock and pandas are indeed culls from shadow pandas. As far as the pricing goes Nick's shadow pandas are actually the same price the last few times offered and what currently Bkk/Pandas are selling for on TPT. $65.00 a pop. Are you saying regular pandas suppose to be priced lower?


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## thechibi (Jan 20, 2012)

Speedie never struck me as a scammer. A lot of people seem happy with his shrimps. I'd personally take it to PMs or request a moderator. They look like nice shrimp and I can see a little bit of blue. 

He might've had a hard time catching them all on photo or something or making sure each one was a particular blue. Things can be really hard to net. I'm sure it wasn't intentional. Aren't regular pandas and shadow pandas close in price to one another?


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## Jorge_Burrito (Nov 10, 2010)

I didn't mean to insinuate speedie is selling what are "culls" as shadow pandas, I am sure he is just selling what his breeder sent him as Shadow Pandas. Every single shrimp batch I have ever ordered from any seller have contained some specimens that are better than others, I was just pointed out as your specimens breed it is up to you to continue to try and work towards a goal of a better shrimp.


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## deaf123 (Dec 14, 2011)

This is by far the most entertaining, dramatic bunch of individuals I've ever seen. 
Since I participated in this, I suppose I am just as guilty as the rest. Just begs the question.. Who Cares?!! The OP's question has obviously been addressed, I don't see any reason why this thread should continue any further.
Pretty soon a small car will drive up and 20 clowns will climb out.


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## jone (Nov 27, 2011)

+3,,,should of been handled in PMs...


sbarbee54 said:


> Deaf this definatly should have been handled in private messages, not a post on the forum.


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## thechibi (Jan 20, 2012)

deaf123 said:


> Pretty soon a small car will drive up and 20 clowns will climb out.


But you are already here! Now we're at 19 clowns and I am not a very great driver when someone's foot is on the back of my head! *ducks and runs* :hihi:

Sorry, that was a bit silly. I can understand someone being concerned they did not get what they paid for, but this forum strikes me as a supreme place to get shrimp because people know each other and are trustworthy.


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## inka4041 (Jul 27, 2008)

deaf123 said:


> This is by far the most entertaining, dramatic bunch of individuals I've ever seen.
> Since I participated in this, I suppose I am just as guilty as the rest. Just begs the question.. Who Cares?!! The OP's question has obviously been addressed, I don't see any reason why this thread should continue any further.
> Pretty soon a small car will drive up and 20 clowns will climb out.



Shrimpnmoss asked some valid questions I'd also love to know the answer to. Please enlighten.


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## slugzed (Sep 13, 2010)

thechibi said:


> But you are already here! Now we're at 19 clowns and I am not a very great driver when someone's foot is on the back of my head! *ducks and runs* :hihi:


:hihi:


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## AlisaR (Dec 7, 2011)

+1, this should have been handled in pm.

Just saying, those would have been been obvious slightly blue shadow pandas a year or so ago and people would have peed their pants to get them for $65 a piece. Against the striking shadow, those pale in comparison, but take a picture next to a normal panda and I think the color might be more noticeable.

....In before the lock.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

AlisaR said:


> ....In before the lock.


Yea.. this has been on my mind since the first page glance over.


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## Bahugo (Apr 18, 2011)

deaf123 is trolling pretty bad in here, not sure why you are trying too hurt nicks' rep so bad.. 

I don't really understand the issue, in his sales thread he said that they had variations of blue. Thread should have stopped there at the latest and taken too PM's (should have never been started anyways). 

Nick (speedie) is a great seller, and great guy the OP should talk too him and not have brought this out publicly. 

*
Do you know why it's called an Xbox 360 ?






Because you look at it, turn 360 degrees, and walk the other way! Haha

Waffles.*


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## thechibi (Jan 20, 2012)

Wait, wouldn't you be back where you started? Or maybe there's a twist involved...


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## MrFusion (May 20, 2011)

Lets look at the facts instead of the drama.

1. Speedie already offered to take care of the customer. 


2. Speedie sells the shadow bees for 5 dollars more than regular pandas. Drastically under priced in my opinion, but to say this is a "bait and switch" scenario is just plain ridiculous. He's not twiddling his thumbs with an evil grin over $10.00.

3. Certain "retailers" have been banned from the site because they couldn't control themselves. Everyone knows who I'm talking about. Just follow the trail of hot air, false accusations, girly gossip and all around jerk off behavior. All out of desperation to try to keep Speedie out of the market. 

As one of the few people who have kept a large number of shadows and possibly the first, I can say from experience that color can vary. I can also say from experience that the blue color isn't always fully apparent until the shrimp reach sexual maturity and try to mate. Heck, sometimes it even changes intensity between molts. Nobody knows why this happens, but we all know that it does.

All that really matters is that Speedie is willing to work with the customer. Ignore the trolls and hopefully they'll go back to their all girl grade school.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

MrFusion said:


> Lets look at the facts instead of the drama.
> 
> 1. Speedie already offered to take care of the customer.
> 
> ...


You could have made points #1 & #2 and chimed in with your experience about shadow pandas without point #3. It was an un-needed dig that has nothing to do with the thread, shadow panda's or anything.


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## jczernia (Apr 16, 2010)

:helplease stop. :help:
Leave this to the buyer and seller let them work it out


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## deaf123 (Dec 14, 2011)

I am not trolling. As I stated before, I said what I said before I even knew it was speedie who was the seller. I have nothing against him at all. People make mistakes, I understand that. There are also individuals out there willing to take advantage of hobbyists(before anyone freaks out, I don't mean speedie) by exploiting certain environmental conditions(stress) to get shrimp to display colors that they wouldn't otherwise display.

Speedie, I apologize if you feel like I was trying to smear you - I agree that it should have been handled over PM - unfortunately it wasn't.

At the same time I have absolutely no desire to participate, or answer questions from a particularly hostile crowd, so I shall take my leave.


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## ZID ZULANDER (Apr 15, 2008)

MrFusion said:


> Lets look at the facts instead of the drama.
> 
> 1. Speedie already offered to take care of the customer.
> 
> ...


 
Not sure why there was a need to bring up things in the past in this thread.. I thought we were trying to keep the drama out...

Maybe for future posts if there is a difference in color posting a picture of the best of the best and the not so good would be wise. This way the buyer will know its possible he will get some that are not as colorful as the best one. I know it was stated in the ad but people tend to look at the picture more so than the words. 

I would love them either way and for the money seems fair.


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## HiepSTA (Aug 23, 2011)

Bahugo said:


> *
> Do you know why it's called an Xbox 360 ?
> 
> 
> ...


if you turn 360 degrees, you'd be looking at the xbox again....


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## Bahugo (Apr 18, 2011)

HiepSTA said:


> if you turn 360 degrees, you'd be looking at the xbox again....


:hihi: :wink:


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

All,

I just want to say, THANKS for all the support from all my friends and fellow TPT members who had something nice to say.

I'm not going to focus on any of the negativity. 

I also received an update from my source and he is very apologetic to say the least. It wasn't his intent nor was it mine to send anything less than what's advertised. If anything, it was an accident and as I've already stated, I will replace the shrimp at my cost. I have/will never send anyone anything that they did not order, EVER. If any of my customers ever feel they've been wronged, all they have to do is send me a PM. I will make things right as long as it's a legitimate complaint. 

As of now, I still have not received any confirmation from Mr. Jasonchen about the shrimp in question. 

Best regards,

Nick


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## Aquarist_Fist (Jul 22, 2008)

Probably because he has better things to do than spending his weekend bickering on an Internet forum.  Just as a reminder to all those of you in tears about the very existence of this thread: Jason asked a question here. He didn't mention the seller, and neither did he accuse anyone of being a scammer. All perfectly legitimate and not his fault that 30 people jumped in on the discussion.

For what it's worth, I think these shrimp look awesome, and if I cared for shrimp at all and could tell a brine shrimp from a SSS (is that good or bad?) CRS, I'd buy from Speedie in a heartbeat.


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## thechibi (Jan 20, 2012)

I love the panda shrimps actually! I think they look great.  But I cannot keep them until I get some experience first... and money. *eyes her ramen fund* Oh, Ramen noodles... I think my fish eat better than I do! 

So maybe one day, when I've kept some neos and CRS alive... then I can invest in something like shadow pandas.


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## zachary908 (Feb 12, 2011)

Way to handle this whole thing, Nick. This is why you are my favorite seller on TPT by far.

Keep up the good work, bro.


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