# 20 Gallon Madness - My Return to the Hobby



## Raith (Jun 27, 2014)

Welcome back to the Zen.


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## ichthyogeek (Jul 9, 2014)

Oh hey! I also just started getting back into the hobby, welcome back!

I think 4 years ago, LED lights were only just starting to take off. Nowadays they seem to be pretty mainstream. I think they may actually be better than the T5s or T8s (shhhh, don't tell my 4 bulb fixture that...)

The forum itself seems to be much lower in terms of activity. It could be due to people moving to social media such as Facebook groups. Or they could be moving to megaforums like reddit.

Walstadt and Nature aquariums experienced a boom in part due to Foo the Flowerhorn's YT channel as well as the ease of use and simplicity of the method.

More nano fish seem to have made their way into the hobby, but they're usually the same species as 4 years ago. 

Overall, there doesn't seem to be much in terms of innovation.


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Thanks for the replies, everyone!

I figured LEDs were going to be one of the big changes. With my previous tank, I remember LEDs just beginning to be widely accepted and the Finnex Ray II being one of the first decent commercially available light bars. The Ray II worked well for me on my old tall tank 46 bow front and I would like to use it again when I set up my new tank in the spring. However, I think I will be going with a smaller tank this time around and worry it will be too much light. I have do have a 20L tank I've thought about using but that is a fair bit shorter than the Ray II I have (36"). Aesthetically I like longer lower tanks so I might look into what 36" long tanks are available. However, that still leaves me with what seems like a lot of light at the substrate due to the shorter tank. I wonder if the Ray IIs can be dimmed? My biggest complaint with Ray II was the color, its a very white-blue light (only 7000K bulbs) so a lot of the colors in my old tank were washed out, so I will be looking to add some colored lighting to make things pop.

As far as the rest of the tank I am still a bit undecided, luckily I still have plenty of time to get back up to speed and make decisions. For substate, I am torn between going with MTS as I have all of the stuff for it (minus the dirt itself) and it worked well on my last tank. However, I have thought about giving ADA Aquasoil a try as I recall it being the bee's knees. Part of me also wants to give unmineralized soil a try. No matter what I choose I will probably do a sand cap as I really prefer the look of sand to gravel. As far as plants go I thinking about focusing heavily on crypts. I grew a few different types in my old aquarium and liked their look and low maintenance. I will am also thinking about having a fair amount of other rooted plants and anubias and buce. I am sure I will have a few stems but I don't think they will be my focus. My big goal is to avoid having a collectoritis jungle of tank this time round, but I suspect I might fail at that. The draw to add more and mores species is hard to fight. As for fish I am undecided and will probably weight till I figure out what the water quality is like at my future place. I do have an RO/DI system I am going to dig out of storage but I would like to avoid it if possible. I will probably stock RCS, and I am thinking about a BN pleco and maybe Dario Dario. I would like to have a few more fish than the three I had in my last tank. Undecided on if I want to stock Malaysian trumpet snails again, they were awesome for keeping substrate in old tank clean and prevent it from going anoxic but all the empty shells were ugly.


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## FischAutoTechGarten (Jul 11, 2003)

Welcome back!

Forum participation is down. I participate on two forums (here and SimplyDiscus). I remember years ago people followed DIY Threads, Tank Journals, and Fish Room Build Threads religiously. Not so much anymore.

Folks have migrated to FaceBook and Instagram Groups... where you get nice short videos and photos... and lots of my Discus/Ram is sick posts. Not much depth. I think it just reflects the reality that folks don't engage one another in meaningful ways as often as they used to.

Welcome back to the hobby. I'm kind of a NEW Old stock guy... so I have allot of brand new equipment that is 5-10 years old (Hydor 110v Heating Cables, Ecoxotic Stunner LED strips, etc...) Your LED lighting is no doubt quite relevant.

I use a rather inert 2mm sized gravel that is about 1 1/2" deep. The lower 3/8" is mixed with laterite (and yes I have 25w heating cables in each of my 20 gallon longs in that laterite). So, I'm old school. I would love to see what you end up doing for substrate and fertilizing, as I have much to learn. I have two dosers, but I'm not using them yet, as i don't have a steady regiment started with prepared dry ferts.... Just going to use up the store bought liquid fertilizers for about a month... and then pursue at least a comprehensive Macro and comprehensive Micro fertlizers regimen. 

Of course, I just read that you will start up in the spring... so by then I will be on my way. Just started up my 4-tank mini rack after years away. I have an RO system, but don't do DI.

If you post details of your thought processes.... I'll read them... I like re-entry into the hobby threads... folks giving it a go again with all the experience they've had in the past and a willingness to adopt new ideas, processess and materials. Good stuff.


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Very sad to hear that the forums are dying out, I used to spend way to much time reading posts and articles on here, APC, and a few other forums. Even though I am part of the social media obsessed generation, I've never really bought into it. I will for sure be starting a tank journal as I get a bit closer to spring. My inner engineer has a tendency to way over complicate things so I've been thinking about trying to make a black box of sorts to control dosing, lights, CO2, etc. Arduino based would probably work but coding is not my strong suit so we will see. In the next few weeks I will also be pulling out all the aquarium stuff I have stuffed in storage to sort through and see what's worth keeping and what I will be selling/tossing and start planning what I need to get.

One big thing that I remembered last night is that my CO2 regulator has an output pressure of 10 psi max. This isn't good as I would like to have as little equipment in my future tank as possible and most of the inline diffusers and reactors I've looked at need a higher working pressure. On my old tank I had a bamboo skewer stuffed in the end of my CO2 line which then feed into a power head with a modified impeller. It worked pretty well but like I said I want to limit the amount of equipment in the tank. If anyone has any suggestions for low pressure diffusion I would be very grateful. I really like my old regulator and don't really want to spend the money to replace it.

Another thing I am looking for input on is filtration. In the past I've always used HOB filters but I would like to switch to a canister to reduce the amount of equipment in the tank. However, I would really like the canister to be easy to clean as I like to rinse part of my bio media every week to encourage hetrotrohpic bacterial growth to help control dissolved organics. I started using this method based on an old forum discussion that I can no longer find. I don't for sure know that this method does anything useful but it seemed to help control algae in my old tank so I figure it doesn't hurt. I will also be using purigen as that did make a noticeable difference in water clarity and algae in my old tank. Again this unnecessary but its pretty cheap so I don't see a downside to using it.

For substrate I am now thinking I will go with mineralized top soil again as it worked well for me before and I already have the additives I need for it. However I might try adding some other additives like azomite, greensand, and sul-po-mag. Necessary? No, but I like to complicate things apparently. Water column dosing will depend on how many water feeding plants I end up with, at this time I leaning more towards root feeders. However I am going to see if I can find my notes from last aquarium on my dosing strategy. If I remember right I did the math to come up with a dialed back EI based scheme with water changes of 25% and 50% on alternating weeks. Then I watched for deficiencies and bumped the needed fertilizers to get healthy growth. After getting it tuned it worked really well, I was growing plants very fast (new leaves on my crypts every day or two, and inches of growth on stems each day) with out any noticeable algae. Granted my tank had very little bioload (a betta, 2 BN plecos, and shrimp in a 46 gallon) so I didn't really worry about accounting for extra nitrogen from the fish in my dosing scheme. The stability of my old tank was really the most impressive part, forgetting to fertilize, going on vacation, missing a water change, nothing seemed to really upset it. I suspect this was due the combination of less light (due to the height of the tank), co2 injection, and nutrients stored in the substrate making everything very robust, but I might have just gotten lucky.


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## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Thenoob said:


> My inner engineer has a tendency to way over complicate things so I've been thinking about trying to make a black box of sorts to control dosing, lights, CO2, etc. Arduino based would probably work but coding is not my strong suit so we will see. In the next few weeks I will also be pulling out all the aquarium stuff I have stuffed in storage to sort through and see what's worth keeping and what I will be selling/tossing and start planning what I need to get.
> 
> 
> > A very effective DIY controller, requiring very little coding, comes from the SW side of aquariums. It's Raspberry Pi based and called reef pi. It was/is developed by a man named Ranjib Dey and has gained a ton of enthusiasts over on www.reef2reef.com
> ...


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## FischAutoTechGarten (Jul 11, 2003)

Thenoob said:


> My inner engineer has a tendency to way over complicate things so I've been thinking about trying to make a black box of sorts to control dosing, lights, CO2, etc. Arduino based would probably work but coding is not my strong suit so we will see.


I'm building one... I have it operational now..

It's on a RaspberryPi running Node-RED. I use allot of Atlas-Scientific EZO sensors that communicate over i2c (a multi-drop serial type network meant for integrated circuits communication.. so trace lines of inches.... but folks have got it working over 30, 50 feet now....) Node-Red is flow based programming with Javascript as the underlying language. The best part is the way the community can share nodes/flows, etc... It even has a basic dashboard for creating graphics that render in the Chrome browser. Worth reading up on. RaspberryPi OS is nice because it gives you access to so many services, as opposed to programming everything bare metal via C, C++ with the Arduino.

The flow I will direct you to reads Temp, pH, ORP, Conductivity, Dissolved Oxygen, and Sump Return Flow (all are EZO circuits). Temperature compensation is available too for pH, Conductivity and Dissolved Oxygen as well. I have setup and calibration routines working as well. I didn't do it all on my own...note even a stretch... a few of us figured out pieces of it and shared our code. The other contributors were all brighter than me. I have control of Temp and pH (via CO2 injection) via a NCD Relay I/O Expansion Board... which also communicates to RaspberryPi/NodeRED over i2c. Working to finish up level control and dosing. Might do dimming of my lighting as well.

The name of my company is SonoraTechnical LLC, so I go by SonoraTechnical on GitHub, NPM, IoT sites, etc... This is my thread below on my aquarium controller (yeah, it needs more updates... and perhaps a BOM for the project):

https://discourse.nodered.org/t/aqu...tific-i2c-devices-ncd-i2c-relay-board/25839/8

Money wise... I think I would have been cheaper buying a neptune system. But that's becuase I've had so many false starts and changes of direction. Read that thread and you will see mention of another hobbyist who built a similar controller that is much better than mine.


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

FischAutoTechGarten said:


> I'm building one... I have it operational now..
> 
> It's on a RaspberryPi running Node-RED. I use allot of Atlas-Scientific EZO sensors that communicate over i2c (a multi-drop serial type network meant for integrated circuits communication.. so trace lines of inches.... but folks have got it working over 30, 50 feet now....) Node-Red is flow based programming with Javascript as the underlying language. The best part is the way the community can share nodes/flows, etc... It even has a basic dashboard for creating graphics that render in the Chrome browser. Worth reading up on. RaspberryPi OS is nice because it gives you access to so many services, as opposed to programming everything bare metal via C, C++ with the Arduino.



Wow that's a really cool controller your working. I read through the thread you linked and it looks very impressive. I have to say something like that is probably well beyond my skills. The controller I had in mine was a lot simpler, really just more precise timers to control how long the peristaltic pumps run and small chunk of code so I could input the desired amount of a nutrient in ppm I want to add and it could calculate the corresponding run time and then implement it. For temperature I was thinking an off the shelf PID controller and a solid state relay. Cheap and pretty easy to implement.


I looked into dimming my Finnex Ray 2 and it doesn't look likes it possible without ripping the whole thing open. So a new light or lifting it way up is in order. I've been thinking about what I want to do for this aquarium and I thinking I might raise it up. I leaning towards this options (maybe with an RGB strip to add some color) as it would give me a lot of light spread outside the tank as well, which works perfectly for an open top tank with drift wood (and maybe rock) sticking out of it. So now the tank I'm picturing would be open top and have good sized gnarly stump in it that pokes up out of the water. Then I would plant ephityes and moss all along the stump both above and below the water. The challenge in this is finding a plan that is okay growing emmersed on wood at lower humidity due to the open top. If anyone has any species suggestions let me know. I am also interested in other aquatic ephityes and rooted plants.


I also started digging through my aquarium stuff to figure out what I'm taking with me when I move and what I'm getting rid of. I found my regulator and I was wrong before in thinking it was limited at 10 psi, it actually tops out at 25 psi which gives me more options but its still pretty low. The regulators body (brass) is also a bit tarnished so I look into polishing it to give it a nice shine. Some of the other items of note I found are the following: 20L tank (very dirty), 2 Eheim Jager heaters (125 and 60 watts), 46 bow front and stand, Hanna TDS and pH meters, a few big Penguin HOB filters, EI dry ferts, big jug of pond Prime, MTS additives, and like four tetra 200 W heaters. No idea why I have so many heaters, but I think I'll be keeping the eheims and getting rid of the tetras. I'll be keeping the meters, ferts, and the 20L tank if it cleans up nice. Planning on getting rid of or selling the 46 gal tank, stand, tetra heaters, and most if not all of the HOB filters. Not sure if the Pond Prime is still good, but I'll be keeping it if it is. Anyone know if Prime expires?


So if the 20L tank is in good shape the only big things I need to get come spring are a canister filter, stand, and hard scape. Lights and an inline heater are on the would be nice list as of now. I also be keeping my eyes out for a good deal on a frag tank, I really like wide short tanks and the built in sump filter would be cool so if see a good deal I might jump on it. Figuring out for sure what tank I'll be using is possible until I figuring out where I'll be living (apartment or town house) and the what aquarium policy is there. I suspect I'll also have to deal with bad water so I'll have to figure out how to get my RO system hooked up.


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## niget2002 (Dec 20, 2020)

I'm new here, but have been lurking for a while.

Microelectronics is something I have a lot of experience in. Planted tanks... Quite a bit less  

I built a controller for a reef tank that used a pi and an arduino talking to each other. It ran perfectly for a few years before I moved and took the tank down. It monitored pH, temp, and float switches. It controlled all the pumps, top off, and the lights. 

More recently I used an esp32 to dose thrive.

It uses one motor to spin a magnetic stirrer for 30 seconds and then doses the liquid. There is a web page you can use to calibrate the doser, set what time to run, and prime the hose going to the aquarium. It also monitors temperature. A future version of the software pushes the temps to a Mqtt server for notification if it goes out of spec. 

The entire enclosure is 3d printed.










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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

niget2002 said:


> It uses one motor to spin a magnetic stirrer for 30 seconds and then doses the liquid. There is a web page you can use to calibrate the doser, set what time to run, and prime the hose going to the aquarium. It also monitors temperature. A future version of the software pushes the temps to a Mqtt server for notification if it goes out of spec.
> 
> The entire enclosure is 3d printed.



That looks awesome, do you have a build thread or anywhere I could look more info on a dosing set up similar to to that?

On an unrelated note I have started questioning some of the Flora I've said I would like to use. I would love to have crypt, buce, anubias, sword heavy tank, possibly with a dwarf hair grass carpet. However the lighting requirements of the dwarf hair grass is way higher then the others which could be problematic. I'm also questioning the logic behind setting up a high tech low light tank, seems kind of a unnecessary but I already have the regulator so I don't know. Shooing for medium light might work, the crypts in my old tank did well with it but there was also a number stems in there that shaded them, but you also couldn't see them as well. I suppose I should look into stems for this future tank some more, nothing against them, they just aren't as interesting to me at the moment. Hygro pinnatifida is one stem I plan on stocking for sure though, love the leaf shape.


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## niget2002 (Dec 20, 2020)

I do not have a build yet.

I'll try to get one put together. 

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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Quick update, I've successfully moved and am starting to pull things together to get a tank up and running. The next big step for me is finding a stand, selecting a substrate, and getting a co2 tank (already have the regulator). Originally I have planned to use the wood from my home-built lofted bed frame to build a stand. However, I am starting to lean away from that option as I access to only limited tools. So now I am thinking a commercial option, I looked at some of the stands at Petco and didn't love them as they didn't seem very sturdy or have much storage. Do y'all have any budget conscious ideas for a stand for a 20 gallon long?

As far as substrate, I've been thinking about going with soilmaster select (or similar) mixed with worm castings. From what I've read it seems to offer many of the benefits of MTS with less preparation and less mess when planting/rearranging.


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## ichthyogeek (Jul 9, 2014)

Stand idea: I like the storage racks that you can buy from lowes or home depot. Then again I have multiple tank syndrome. Quite budget conscious, and really the only thing cheaper that I can think of is cinderblocks and 2x4s which...may not be the best aesthetics wise.

Which MTS are we talking about here? Multiple Tank Syndrome? Malaysian Trumpet Snails?


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Mineralized Top Soil, I should have clarified since MTS is so common of an acronym

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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

I wasn't familiar with Soilmaster Select, and that's because it hasn't been made for more than a decade. Apparently Turface is basically the same thing, so you should look into that if you want to go in that direction. 

20 gallon long is light enough you can put it on well made, level furniture, so that gives you more options, especially if you have the time to look for something second hand. I have a short bookcase that supports my 20 long.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Let me know if you ever want to turn this into a Tank Journal and I'll move it for you and help you change the title. Just send me a private message.


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

ElleDee said:


> I wasn't familiar with Soilmaster Select, and that's because it hasn't been made for more than a decade. Apparently Turface is basically the same thing, so you should look into that if you want to go in that direction.
> 
> 20 gallon long is light enough you can put it on well made, level furniture, so that gives you more options, especially if you have the time to look for something second hand. I have a short bookcase that supports my 20 long.


Good catch on the soil master select, thank you. I guess I need to pay better attention to the posts I've been reading. Some quick searching around my area didn't reveal any sources for turface, however, I think I should be able to get SafeTsorb so I might go with that.

I have done some poking about looking for a furniture alternative to a stand but haven't found anything great yet. Unfortunately, I only have a sedan so that limits my options as far as far as getting any furniture/stands back home. Ideally, I would like to find a stand larger than the tank's footprint as the light I will be using is longer than the tank and will be raised quite a bit up leading to light spillover. That excess light I was planning to use to grow some herbs. Might just have to bite the bullet and get a commercial stand from petsmart/petco.


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## ichthyogeek (Jul 9, 2014)

Thenoob said:


> Good catch on the soil master select, thank you. I guess I need to pay better attention to the posts I've been reading. Some quick searching around my area didn't reveal any sources for turface, however, I think I should be able to get SafeTsorb so I might go with that.
> 
> I have done some poking about looking for a furniture alternative to a stand but haven't found anything great yet. Unfortunately, I only have a sedan so that limits my options as far as far as getting any furniture/stands back home. Ideally, I would like to find a stand larger than the tank's footprint as the light I will be using is longer than the tank and will be raised quite a bit up leading to light spillover. That excess light I was planning to use to grow some herbs. Might just have to bite the bullet and get a commercial stand from petsmart/petco.





https://www.lowes.com/pd/edsal-Muscle-Rack-24-in-D-x-60-in-W-x-78-in-H-5-Tier-Steel-Freestanding-Shelving-Unit/1000556511



Just saying.


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## gjcarew (Dec 26, 2018)

Thenoob said:


> Good catch on the soil master select, thank you. I guess I need to pay better attention to the posts I've been reading. Some quick searching around my area didn't reveal any sources for turface, however, I think I should be able to get SafeTsorb so I might go with that.
> 
> I have done some poking about looking for a furniture alternative to a stand but haven't found anything great yet. Unfortunately, I only have a sedan so that limits my options as far as far as getting any furniture/stands back home. Ideally, I would like to find a stand larger than the tank's footprint as the light I will be using is longer than the tank and will be raised quite a bit up leading to light spillover. That excess light I was planning to use to grow some herbs. Might just have to bite the bullet and get a commercial stand from petsmart/petco.


Depends on the stand but a thrifted buffet/ cabinet should be able to fit in the trunk of a sedan. Just make sure it's solid wood. For a 20 gallon, as long as it's sturdy enough to stand on it should be fine for your aquarium.

As long as you have the space, I've made a stand from 2x4's with a reclaimed fir face using only a tape measure, carpenter square, drill, and hand saw. It's definitely possible if you're willing to put the time in. 

The thing is, it's gonna cost more (including sanding, door hardware, stain, brushes, etc) to DIY it than it would to just buy a Petco stand. They will also usually ship a Petco stand to your door.

Same goes for dirt substrates. Once you add all the additives and cap it, are you really saving money over just buying aquasoil? 

I love DIY'ing things, so for me it is usually worth it having made the end product. But if you're budget conscious just be aware that DIY is often the more expensive option, as @FischAutoTechGarten also mentioned.

For low pressure diffusion, you could always inject directly into a powerhead. I believe you can find needle wheel impellers to really chop up the bubbles. It isn't as popular anymore but it still works.

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## niget2002 (Dec 20, 2020)

You can also rent a pickup from uhaul if you find a piece of furniture you want to use but can't move in your car. I had to do this once when rear projection tvs were popular and I bought one bigger than our small suv could hold. 

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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone, I really appreciate it! I visited a few thrift stores this week looking for some furniture to use as a stand and didn't have any luck (did end up with a microwave that I needed so not a total loss). I have a few more thrift stores I plan to check out this weekend and have been keeping an eye on facebook/craigslist for something that catches my eye. I do plan to take a look at some of the storage racks that were suggested, they look like a good cheap option but I do want to check them out in person first to see how they look since this tank will be in my living room.

As far as substrate goes I am still thinking it over, leaning towards black diamond blasting sand now with some additives to richen it up. My goal for the substrate is to be nutrient-rich enough that I can get away without dosing on weekends if I am traveling. I would also like to avoid turning my tank into chocolate milk every time I replant as I am planning to focus on rooted plants instead of stems (not sure if that will last since I've been eyeing the bright colors of stems for a long time). I used mineralized topsoil in my last tank and it worked amazingly and grew plants well. However, every time I re-scaped it was a dust bomb. From a cost standpoint, I should really go with mineralized topsoil as I still have all the additives I need for it (red clay powder, dolomite, osmocote plus, and muriate of potash. I even have a brand new bag of potting mix I have leftover from patio planters that I could I mineralize. However, I feel the strong urge to try something new this time. Since I did MTS and EI (sort of) last time I'd like to use a different substrate and am thinking about giving PPS a try. The most promising options right now seem to be using the potting mix straight and capping with with blasting sand or similar or mixing up a mad mix of blasting sand, worm castings, and other additives. In my mind, the worm castings have a better chance of not making a mess during replanting but I might be off the mark there. As far as DIY vs commercial, I've thought about it a decent amount and I'm not opposed to commercial and do want to give aqua soil a try at some point. That said I struggle with the concept of paying that much for dirt even if it is really fancy nice dirt. I also enjoy the DIY aspect of the hobby so cooking up my own substrate plays into that.

The suggestion on using a needle wheel is an excellent suggestion for CO2 injection, I used something similar in my previous tank with an eheim Powerball that I had split the rotor blades on. Now that I think about it, I might still have that powerhead which would give me a good interim option. My overarching plan is to get the tank started with the equipment I have now: HOB filter, in-tank heater, powerhead CO2 diffuser, and slowly replace things in an effort to reach my goal of no visible equipment. I'm also keeping half an eye out for a good deal on a shallow square all in one tank as that would be a perfect future show tank in my opinion.

As far as short term goals they are as follows:

find a stand and hang my light
settle on substrate
get CO2 tank, find local filler, and get tubing, check valve, and other accouterments.
pick out driftwood (having trouble finding pieces I like locally. I'm hoping to find larger pieces that stick out of the tank)
dry start hair grass carpet? (probably not necessary since I'll be running CO2, but it'll let me bring the full force of my light to bear hopefully speeding things along. It'll also give my bank account a chance to recover before buying the rest of the plants)


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## gjcarew (Dec 26, 2018)

I did a substrate similar to that in a previous tank. It was VERY rich. Here's the link if you want to check it out. Worm castings, clay, osmocote, and potting soil capped with aquasoil. I also did something similar except capped with BDBS in a low-tech tank.

The upside is that it grows plants fabulously. I've never had a tank that so consistently and easily grew all manner of plants.

It doesn't come without downsides, though. As you mentioned, it's dirty when you uproot plants. That isn't so much a problem with potting soil, you can just vacuum it up. But with worm castings, when the substrate gets exposed to the water it causes ammonia spikes and algae blooms. It's also impossible to limit nitrates since the substrate is so nitrate-rich, so plants don't get as red as they potentially could with nitrate limitation.

That said, if you're not gonna uproot plants much it is a great way to go. I wouldn't do it again in a high-tech tank but it's great for low-tech.


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Might have solved the stand issues. Found this locally and working on details for pick up with the seller. As you can see it also comes with a drilled tank and sump for a very very good price. Only concern is that it looks like it's only has a single stand pipe. I know next to nothing about sumps but I thought I rembered that only one pipe isn't good. I'm willing to give drilling it additional holes a shot if necessary since I already have a tank that can be a back up.

It also looks like this stand does not have a solid top (rim only support), I've heard mixed opinions about weather that is bad or not. It's not the prettiest stand but can probably be dressed up to look nicer but maybe not worth the trouble. For $50 it seems like it would be worth it.

Thoughts?









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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

So I did end up getting the above tanks and stands for $50 and and a pretty long drive. Now that I have everything home and can look at things in more details I think it may have been a mistake. Upon close inspection the stand does not make complete contact with the tank rim and the stand seems to be out of square causing it to be wobbly.

Both of the tanks seem to be in good shape. The drilled tank has a single 3/4" in bulk head pretty close to the top of the tank (edge of the hole is about 3/4" below the rim). I'm starting to suspect that this hole placement would make it it difficult to set up with an overflow box but it might be possible. To do it correctly it seems like I would need to drill atleast one more hole for a herbie style overflow. 

So all in all might just be a loss asides from the 10 gallon tank. A good reminder why patience is a virtue I suppose.

On a more positive note I got to check out some further away local fish stores when I was out getting the tank. Both stores were pretty impressive and found some awesome looking drift. However, I didn't end up getting it since the price on the wood had my jaw on ground. My hunt for driftwood continues.

I also got my test kits in the mail today and was able to test my tap water. I ended up with a the following:
10-11 dGH
7-8 dKH
pH 7.6~7.8 

The I always have a hard time deciding exactly what color the tests are hence the ranges. Seems to be pretty good parameters, atleast compared to the tap water when I had my last tank which had a pH of 8.8 and hardness in the 20s. Yall think I can get away without RO this time round?

Bulk head pictured below









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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Another update, found a good looking stand on Craigslist for a good price. Checked it out and everything looked good so I brought it home. As I was wiping it down a cockroach crawled out of a crack! Immediately moved the stand to the patio. I think it might be time to give up on the used options and just buy a new stand...


Edit: Upon taking the drawer out of the tracks I found lots of evidence of roaches, lots of droppings and a musty smell. I might be able to get clean it up wirh some Raid and bleach water but I might not be worth risking. I really don't want roaches.

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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Houston we have lift off! Well maybe only ignition but still progress. I hot a a metal frame stand from petco $50 on sale. The frame seems to be plenty sturdy. There is a very slight wobble in the stand front to back as I can't get it perfectly level on all sides for the life of me. Might add some foam under the feet.

I added the wooden top, 3/4" laminated spruce project board (not plywood), as I learned from reviews that these stands tend to not be very flat leading to incomplete contact on the rim. Eventually I will be staining and sealing the top and placing it on a layer of foam so it can self level. Haven't decided between a yoga matt or insulation sheet foam yet. The sheet foam is stronger which would help with weight distribution, but I'm only finding very thick sheets

I am not planning to physically attach the top to the frame as I figure the weight will be enough to keep it in plave . I also plan to add a shelf for the 10 gallon sump and figure something out for sides.

Right now I have the tank partially full try and flatten out the slight warp the board picked up on the drive home from the temperature and humidity shock of going from a cool store to a hot and humid car.

If anyone has any advice on drilling tanks I would love to hear it. I'm planning on drilling the left side of the tank for an eclipse S overflow and using the existing hole as a return. This way I can run a herbie style drain which should be quieter and less likely to clog.









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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Sneak peak!









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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Made lots of progress this weekend. I got the top panel stained and sealed on both sides and just waiting on it to finish drying before sanding it. For sealing, I went with spar urethane in a spray can. If I were to do it again I would not use the spray can as it was very tricky to tell how much I was putting on with the dark stained wood.

I also made a shelf for the bottom of the stand where the 10-gallon sump will sit. The shelf was built using only hand tools and a cordless drill so it was quite the project. It's constructed from 2x4 scrap from the lofted bed fame I used in college. Three 2x4s was almost a perfect fit front to back, I just had to sand a bit off of the edges for fitment. The 2x4s are edge-glued with cross braces screwed to the underside. Due to the irregular thickness of the 2x4s I hand sanded them to get a flat surface which took about 6 hours. What I wouldn't have done for a free-orbit sander...








It turned out well but is just slightly out of level. I have the shelf resting on some styrofoam sheeting to see if it self levels, if not I will shim it to level. I'll be painting it black with rust-oleum protective enamel paint before the final install to help it blend in and protect it from water.

As for the tank, I decided to go with the Eshops Eclipse S overflow which required drilling the left side of the tank. The existing hole on the right will be used as the return. This was my first time drilling glass, much less an aquarium, so it was tad bit stressful. Luckily it went well and nothing cracked. The first step was to strip off the old paint from the previous owner. I probably could have drilled through the paint but I was planning to repaint anyways since the old paint was peeling.

The Eclispe S comes with a diamond hole saw and drill guide so its a very nice little package. Since this tank is rimmed, I couldn't use the jig on the outside of the tank or the water level would have been well below the tank rim. After playing around with the alignment I found that if I put the jig on the inside and push it flush against the inside rim the alignment was about perfect. I then traced the hole with a sharpie and taped the jig to the outside of the tank to prevent drill walk.









I went very slowly and stopped every minute or so to pour cold water onto the glass to keep everything lubricated. I did have a little bit of chip out on the inside of the hole but I was able to clean it up with sandpaper.
















Really the only problem I had was getting little glass shavings stuck in my hands and legs despite wearing gloves and being careful. No bleeding just itchy and prickly.

















I think this overflow is going to be awesome since it only protrudes into the tank about half an inch. It's very sleek and low profile.

The next major steps are painting the back of the tank. I'll be using the rust-oleum protective enamel and a small foam roller as I've read on some of the forums that it's a popular choice. I do need to figure out if I need to tape off the area around the holes for the bulkhead seals or if they will seal to the paint. If anyone has experience with this let me know.

I also need to figure out sump baffles and pick a pump. I'm planning to have the pump feed through a CO2 reactor before returning to the tank so I'll have to get something beefy enough to overcome any headloss from that. If anyone has pump suggestions or advice on what flow rate to shoot for on this tank let me know!


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Weekly update for anyone who's following along!

This week was pretty productive again and we are nearing the home stretch on the build, hopefully. The wood panel finished drying and I was able to sand it to a decent finish with 400 grit sandpaper. I also got the back of the tank and sump shelf painted so the stand is mostly done. I haven't decided if I am going put sides and a front on the stand yet or not, either way, I figure I can add it later as I plan to use magnets to stick them on since they would be purely aesthetic and won't need to handle any load.

I also managed to figure out how to hang my light (an old 36" Finnex Ray2 DS) in a way that's only moderately sketchy. I don't love this light since it washes out pretty much everything but green and blue but I should work for the time being. Hopefully, this will give me enough light, I feel like it should since I used it on my previous tank which was 18" tall vs 12" for this tank. I did notice a few diodes that appear to be burnt out as they aren't lighting up so I might need a new light sooner than later.


















As for hardscape, I also found a pair of rocks at a local fish store that I really liked and ended up getting but man is rock expensive!! Unfortunately, I didn't bring any vinegar with me to the store to do a fizz test. I asked the guy there and he said it was Japanese river stone and wouldn't mess with my hardness. When I got it home poured some vinegar on it and I could definitely hear fizzing. Hopefully, it won't increase my hardness or much since I'm already on the upper end for the fish I'm looking at. I have the rocks soaking in water and vinegar, not sure if it will do anything but maybe.









































I am envisioning using these rocks with some driftwood to create the scape but I am very bad at aquascaping so hopefully, the experts can chime in with some advice. I think I'm going to try buying the driftwood online since the local prices are very hard to stomach at $20+ for a small stick-sized piece.

I also settled on a return pump and ordered the Jebao DCP-2500 which already arrived but was missing o-rings for the outlet connections. I reached out to the seller but if that doesn't work out I'm sure I can come up with something at Lowes (my second home these days).

The next big step is to finalize my sump baffle design and find a local glass shop to have them cut. Beyond that, it's pretty much just building up the reactor and plumbing everything in. I am planning to run the reactor off the main return pump, any thoughts on if it should be run directly in series or as a parallel break-off loop?

I've been thinking about livestock and have fallen in love with peacock gudgeons, however, they would require I change up my plan of running open top with emergent plants since I've heard they are jumpers. I'll have to do some more thinking about them.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Nice build! I am just seeing this thread today for the first time. If you haven't solved it yet you can level the stand by twisting the feet. This will increase the length of each individual foot on its stem. I made similar modifications to the 40 breeder version of this stand for my newt tank. 

As for plumbing the reactor, definitely run it off of a T or Y from the main return line. This way the flow will not be impacted and you can control how fast water moves through the reactor which is essential to making sure the bubbles dissolve in the reactor and aren't simply blown through it.

You don't need to worry about O rings for a submersible pump. Just run the pump inside the sump, any minimal leakage from lack of O rings is a non issue, the vast vast vast majority of water will go through the pump and into your return hose.

Also you don't need baffles for a freshwater sump unless you really really really want them and there are a few reasons why they are bad. For one thing they will outgas your co2 faster, for another thing they are noisy. Your sump doesn't need to be more then a intake, a dry emergency line, and then a few layers of foam that stretch across the whole side of the sump so water has to flow through the foam. All done.


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

minorhero said:


> Nice build! I am just seeing this thread today for the first time. If you haven't solved it yet you can level the stand by twisting the feet. This will increase the length of each individual foot on its stem. I made similar modifications to the 40 breeder version of this stand for my newt tank.
> 
> As for plumbing the reactor, definitely run it off of a T or Y from the main return line. This way the flow will not be impacted and you can control how fast water moves through the reactor which is essential to making sure the bubbles dissolve in the reactor and aren't simply blown through it.
> 
> ...


Thanks, minorhero!

I was using the screw a few and was still having issues getting it to sit flat and it turns out the floor where I was working on the build was absurdly unflat. Moving it to a flatter spot seems to have fixed many of the issues.

For the reactor, when you say a Y or T do you mean splitting the reactor off from the mainline and having it have its own separate return back to the tank? Or you splitting it off then having it rejoin the main return line downstream of the reactor? I guess I was thinking of having it rejoining the main live and just using a ball valve or two to control how much flow is diverted through the reactor.

A baffle-less sump would certainly be easier. Can you point me towards so more info on this? Would it just be verticle sheets of foam? If so where does one find such sheets? I know swiss tropicals has sheets of poret but it would be pretty pricy to fill the sump with poret. Running without baffles would also mean the heater is in a non-constant water height chamber which I've read is a big no no. However, as someone pointed out in my sump design thread if your sump runs dry there's probably bigger issues.


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## gjcarew (Dec 26, 2018)

Thenoob said:


> Thanks, minorhero!
> 
> I was using the screw a few and was still having issues getting it to sit flat and it turns out the floor where I was working on the build was absurdly unflat. Moving it to a flatter spot seems to have fixed many of the issues.
> 
> ...


Check out the Nilocg reactor, it helps explain the basic principle (I think) @minorhero is talking about. A bypass allows you to control the flow rate in the reactor so you're getting full dissolution, but everything is inline.

I don't think you need to fill the sump with poret. Just something like the picture below -- the water flows through the sponges, but it doesn't need to be filled with sponges to be effective. It also does not seem to effect water height.


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

@gjcarew Thank you, the plumbing on the reactor you linked is what I had in my head but was having trouble putting into words. I also spoke with Dr. Tanner at Swiss Tropicals today and we settled on two 2" sheets of 20 ppi and one 2" sheet of 30 ppi poret.

I also have a shipment from BRS en route with a gate valve and loc line return parts so the equipment aspect of the build is nearing completion. The last outstanding equipment items are to pick up a co2 tank and settle on a reactor design. Any thoughts on what style of reactor would be best suited for a tank this size? I was leaning towards a cerges as it seems a bit simpler and lower profile but I will likely have lots of leftover pvc from plumbing the overflow so a rex griggs or other pvc style might be in the cards aswell. My regulator has a max output pressure of 10 psi, so hopefully that won't be an issue. From a static pressure standpoint, I should be fine since the return height should impose only about two psi. Hopefully, the dynamic pressure won't be very significant but I suspect I'll have to be judicious with my bypass valve adjustments to avoid building too much pumping pressure.


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Weekly update for y'all.

This week I was able to get the overflow plumbed. I had a bit of an issue with the primer running all over the place so I will either have to paint the drains black or use acetone to wipe the purple stains and writing off.
















I decided to plumbe the main drain with 45 degrees elbows even thought I suspect I will be running nowhere near the flow capacity of 1" pvc even with elbows. I did end up using regular 90 degree elbows for the secondary/emergency drain as I was having difficulty getting the alighmnet over the sump correct witht the 45s. I haven't plumbed the pump return yet as I am waiting until I have the CO2 reactor figured out. I also have to determine if I will be hard plumbing the return, using soft tubing, or a mixture of the two. From what I've seen on reef forums, soft plubming or a mix of hard and soft is the most common. Whichever I decided, I need to make sure I can install a pipe hanger or bracket to preven the weight of the plumbing pulling the back pain of the glass. I have brackets from the drains as well which I will be installing.

The poret foam and replacment pump o-rings arrived this past week which means the equipment side of this build is complete aside from a CO2 tank and the reactor. I haven't made a final decision on a rex griggs vs. cerges reactor. I am leaning towards a cerges reactor as it seems to be the more straightforward of the two and I suspect causes fewer head losses. I finally found which box I had my regulator in and it turns out this regulator is rated for a 25 psig max working pressure. I have no idea why I had 10 in my head but its good to know I have more headroom.

I also collected a very cool stump I am hoping to use in the tank. However, since it a had a bit of a funky smell and some strange purple discolartion I have reached out to some local arborist to find out more.








I am hopeful on the wood as I baked in the oven for pretty much two days straight. The wood is now bone dry (the tip of a branch actually caught on fire at one point) and the funky smell is entirley gone. Assuming the wood is safe, does anyone have suggestions on what else should go into the scape? I am turn between using a black or natrual colored sand cap. I also haven't decied if the seriyu stones I have would fit into this scape or a different (or no) rock would be better.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

My mind puts large ish round stones around the base of the wood with heavy planting in between the stones and tied to the base of the wood and maybe vals or something else that could flow across the behind it in the corner ish. I don't know if that makes sense. Then maybe a carpet plants for under the branches and some bushy plants than stems behind the carpet. I like the natural look a opposed to the more stylized looks, though.


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

I was thinking something similar with the round stones. The big question is tan/brown or gray/black stones as it will determine what color substrate I go with.

I was thinking something similar wirh the planting. For the carpet I had dwarf hair grass in mind. Part of me wants to try making the entire right side of the tank a carpet giving the tank a more left to right then front to back scape. 

Sticking to any plan will probably be tricky for me so it's a goal I'm setting. My last tank was a complete jungle which was neat but I'd like to try an aquascape this time around. Resist collectoritis will be a challenge.

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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Big news! The tank is fully plumbed and I plan to start leak testing tomorrow. I might change the clear braided vinyl out for black unbraided viny that I forgot I ordered but came in today. The braided vinyl is more kink resistant but so stiff I'm worried it's putting too much pressure on the bulk head. The black vinyl tubing seems to be more flexible. I just wish I had remembered I ordered it since the braided vinyl was super expensive from the local hardware store.
















I also still have to screw the pipe bracket/mounts into the frame but was hoping to wait till after leak testing to do so. If it passes leak testing I am thinking about spraying the pvc black so not having the plumbing screwed to the stand would be more convenient.


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

So far so good! I have to say the Jebao pump is insanely quite. Like so quiet I'm not sure it's running half the time. As a whole the tank is very quiet but there is some trickling and splashing sounds as the water enters the weir box. Not to bad but I might see if I can quiet it down by using a longer sandpipe on the secondary drain to allow the water level in the weird to be higher.
















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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Disaster strikes...









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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

Oh no!!! 😱 I'm so sorry!!


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## dornblaser (Sep 8, 2020)

Forum participation may be down but I think that this is a fantastic planted tank forum. I dropped off of SimplyDiscus not because of the participation level but because of the disconnect of being able to have Discus in a planted tank, I would not want Discus any other way. I have not found a single FaceBook, Reddit, etc, sub-forum or group that provides the level of knowledge, expertise that is presented in a civil and helpful manner than this forum for our hobby.


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Plinkploop said:


> Oh no!!! [emoji33] I'm so sorry!!


It's my own fault which is frustrating but it is what it is. The street elbow into the return was leaking so I went to discount the union. The union was jammed and I guess I twisted just a bit to much and boom.

I do have a spare 20 long that I'll substitute in, but it is a set back since I'll have to drill and paint it. Thinking about not drilling the return in for the next tank since it's a pain to get the threads on the street elbow to seal.

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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

Thenoob said:


> It's my own fault which is frustrating but it is what it is. The street elbow into the return was leaking so I went to discount the union. The union was jammed and I guess I twisted just a bit to much and boom.
> 
> I do have a spare 20 long that I'll substitute in, but it is a set back since I'll have to drill and paint it. Thinking about not drilling the return in for the next tank since it's a pain to get the threads on the street elbow to seal.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk


😅 have to ask my hubby about that- I think he did that on a couple sump set ups but I can't remember his experiments. I do remember a few accidents tightening and removing- ruined a 90 gallon hex with 60 gallon sump removing the plumbing- the hex was tempered, though so it "shattered". 
Self inflicted set backs are the worst- I cuss myself out every week because of all the times I tell myself "you're pushing it" and then I don't listen 😂 glad you have back up and patience.


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Major dejuavu going on over here! 

Got the new back up tank drilled tonight. Amazing how much difference some experience makes. The first time around I spent almost an hour on hole placement and then another hour drilling. Tonight I banged it all out in about 20 minutes. The hole even turned out cleaner and a bit better placed.

It's not all bad that I had to replace the tank. This replacement seems be much better built and in better condition. I picked it up during a dollar per gallon sale back somewhere around 2013 or 2015. I only ever used it for an emersed grow bin so pretty much brand new. Being an older tank was actually a big benefit since I read that many of the newer dollar per gallon tanks might be randomly made of tempered glass due to shortages in normal plate glass. A quick check with the laptop and sunglasses trick confirmed this tank had no tempered panels which gave me luxury to drill the side with the slight scratch.

Planning to paint the back in the next few days. Hopefully the paint roller I have in the fridge isn't all crusty...









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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Weekly update for yall,

I got the spare painted and built up an over the top return using the loc line Y harness. I might change the return to a spray bar at some point but the loc line is simpler and let's me have flow at the top and bottom of the tank.

Started leak testing today and so far so good. Had a few drips from the union on the return. I tightened it a bit more so hopefully that takes care of it. I have to say the extra elbows for the hanging return definetly did cut the flow down a bit so hopefully the pump has enough extra grunt that I won't regret it in the long run.

I also swapped out the clear vinyl tuning for black as it looks better. I also hoped it would he more flexible since its unbraided unlike the other line. Sadly, that doesn't seem to he the case and the stiffness is quite frustrating. As of now it's pushing the return to lean at an angle. If leak testing is passed, I'll correct this by using pipe straps to hard mount it to the stand nice and straight. I'll also be painting the pvc black since I will be running the stand open. Hopefully that will make things look a bit nicer.

In other news, I finished sifting my dirt and started it soaking for the second soak dry cycle. My neighbors defiently gave me some funny looks while I was playing in buckets of dirt for the third time.

I also cut a few cutting of Ludwigia and rotala from a local club meeting. To keep the fresh and hopefully get some more plant mass I repurposed the cracked tank into an emeresed grow out bin. Long term I don't know if I will keep the stems. However, they will be great for building up plant mass during initial planting.






































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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

😂😂😂 I can only imagine what anyone with no understanding of aquarium keeping think of us "weirdo" dirted tanks keepers and our odd preparation habits. Coming along good. Can't wait to see it in its filled in form!!


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

This weeks update,

After a week without any leaks, I've decided the tank and plumbing have passed leak testing. The only thing of note from leak testing is an issue with a cyclic filling and draining in the overflow box that I working to correct with advice from this forum and a few others.

Since leak testing passed I painted all the plumbing this weekend with Krylon fusion matte black spray paint. Despite my complete lack of spray painting skills it seems to have turned out decent. Once everything is dry I'll see just how bad the drips and overspray are.

I also took a hike out into the wood to collect some rocks to use in the hardscape. I found some I liked and packed them out which isn't something I'm eager to do again anytime soon. I've done my fair share of backpacking, but a pack back full of rocks is just not comfortable! After some scrubbing with a steel brush, they have great color but are a little softer than I thought. They seem to be sedimentary in nature and did not fizz when vinegar was poured on them. Hopefully, they won't pose any issues. 

With rocks in hand, I started playing around with some possible layouts. Not sure how I feel about them yet. As a whole, they all are rather bulky and don't leave much room for rooted plants or a carpet. Any advice is appreciated!


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

I like the first and fourth ones a lot. It's gonna look great!!


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Plinkploop said:


> I like the first and fourth ones a lot. It's gonna look great!!


Thanks for the encouraging words! I was also thinking the first and fourth were my favorites. I lean slightly towards the first on overall look but think the fourth seems to fit the tanks scale better and offer my planting room. 

I don't know if any are quite right so I will keep playing with them. Aquascaping sure is hard!

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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

I'm terrible lol I'll plan it all out, lay it out, ads substrate and then start planting, decide if don't like it and start from scratch.... Do better than me, lol, stick with a plan 😅


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## gjcarew (Dec 26, 2018)

I vote #1

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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

A little sneak peak of the tank in its final home, the painted plumbing and my view from the couch.


My goal was to have the stand top match the color of the speakers since they are one of the more prominent room features. Color isn't a great match but I think it looks okay.
















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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Doing final leak testing and decided to try another layout to see how it looks with water. This one gives me more planting space the the previous which is promising









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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

First things first, the tank is planted! Today, 7/31/2021 is day one.









Don't mind the HOB filter, I'm just using it to help clear the water faster. Luckily I had only minor clouding and seems to be clearing quickly.

The current plant list is:
Anubias Frazeri
Anubias sp. unknown
Crypt. undulata
Crypt. sp. unknown
Ludwigia repens
Hydrocotyle tripata
Eleocharis parvula
Narrow-leaf Java fern

Hopefully, this is enough plant mass to get things rolling. The Ludwigia probably won't stay long term but I needed a fast grower to help suck nutrients up.

I'm a bit worried I planted the hair grass too deep, tricky stuff to plant since it was tissue cultured and didn't have much for roots.

Working on getting my hands on some buce, moss, hygro. pinna. as well as more crypts and anubias. Will probably add a lily at some point as well.

CO2 is currently running at a pretty good clip so will need to get that dialed soon. Also wondering when to start dosing since this has an active substate, right away? Since I am not planning on any live-stock till the tank and substrate cycle should I go far full EI and blast CO2 right off the bat and ween it back later? Also not sure about the height of the light, guessed and put it about 6 inches from the top of the tank.

I did have run into some issues this week. First, off the dirt, I was mineralizing on my patio caught some pesticide overspray from the landscapers so had to be abandoned. I honestly didn't have the patience to wait another few weeks for the dirt to be ready (especially since I needed to get things planted and cleaned up before my flatmate moves in) so I went in another direction. The substrate I am now using consists of a very thin layer of boiled and baked worm castings mixed 50/50 with black diamond blasting sand and a little red clay. Everything is then capped off with more black diamond sand. I also placed a very light sprinkle of dolomite, KCL, and osmocote plus on the glass before adding the substrate. I will say that its very hard to tell how deep the cap is since the enriched and plain sand are the same color. As a result, I think the substrate in the front is a little thin, maybe an inch, inch and half total. The enriched layer is very thin so its mostly sand.

















It also appears that my return pump is surging causing the fill-drain issue I've been having with my overflow. I'm outside the return period on this pump but I will try to see if I can get swapped out anyways. If I am able to return it I will have to run the tank off a HOB filter and a needle wheel powerhead (for co2) until the new pump comes. Not ideal but should work since I don't have any fauna to worry about. I'll be putting media for the HOB in my sump to hopefully get the ball rolling on seeding.


Any thoughts, comments, suggestions are greatly appreciated!


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## Freshfishguy (Apr 7, 2021)

Thenoob said:


> First things first, the tank is planted! Today, 7/31/2021 is day one.
> View attachment 1032090
> 
> 
> ...


Tank setup is looking really nice! 

I think the best approach would be to dial in CO2 ASAP to where you’d be likely to keep it long term (1-1.3pt drop) because that way the plants wouldn’t have to reprogram themselves to a new CO2 level down the line. Also, I know Dennis Wong highly advocates for dosing immediately upon planting even if your substrate is fresh and tank is cycling because you want to get the plants growing well as quickly as possible and since they don’t have established roots they benefit hugely and feed mainly through the water column:When do I start dosing fertilizer into a newly setup planted tank?. I’ve also read a decent number of journals here and it seems like that’s what some of the most experienced guys do.


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Freshfishguy said:


> Tank setup is looking really nice!
> 
> I think the best approach would be to dial in CO2 ASAP to where you’d be likely to keep it long term (1-1.3pt drop) because that way the plants wouldn’t have to reprogram themselves to a new CO2 level down the line. Also, I know Dennis Wong highly advocates for dosing immediately upon planting even if your substrate is fresh and tank is cycling because you want to get the plants growing well as quickly as possible and since they don’t have established roots they benefit hugely and feed mainly through the water column:When do I start dosing fertilizer into a newly setup planted tank?. I’ve also read a decent number of journals here and it seems like that’s what some of the most experienced guys do.


Thank you! I'll take some pH readings throughout the day today to see where I am at. I'll also start dosing as soon as I get some appropriately sized measuring spoons (lost my old set apparently).

In other news, I ran the full gambit of tests to see where everything was sitting.
Ammonia: 0.5 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 5
kH: 6~7 dKH (6 drops turn it green, 7 turns it fully yellow)
gH: 10 dGH
pH before CO2 on: 7.6 ish? Having a very hard time reading pH since it seems to be where the high and low range test kits cross over









From these values, everything looks pretty good to me. Doesn't look like my rocks are leaching any hardness since those numbers are in line with my tap. Also looks like boiling and baking the worm castings worked since I measured the same 0.5 ppm ammonia in my tap water (coming from chloramine I think). I also measured nitrate in my tap water as a bit less than 5 ppm so looks like a little nitrate leaching.

I was actually hoping for a little bit of ammonia to leach out to help with the cycle. I wonder, could I cycle the tank with the ammonia from the tap water?

Even though the parameters looked good, I did a 10-gallon water change which is about 40% since I put around five, five-gallon buckets in. This is about as large of a water change I can do once I have fauna in the tank since it drops the water level to within a few inches of the substrate. I can do bigger if I empty the sump, but this has to be done with pitchers since it's too low to siphon from so it will probably not be done as often.

The one issue I am having is cloudiness. It seems a bit early for a bacterial bloom and I can just barely see little particles blowing around like smoke which seems to suggest something else. Due to this, I am worried the cloudiness is from my rocks melting. Looking back to my previous post where I was leak testing with hardscape in the tank I can see the same cloudiness. The rocks are on the softer side and after reaching out to a friend with a geological background they appear to either be mudstone or claystone so seems like it could be a possibility. However, I would think the filters would have caught some of the particles since I'm currently filtering the crap out of the tank to try and clear it. Six inches of poret foam in the sump and an emperor HOB with a filter floss insert blasting away. Between the main pump and the HOB the tank looks like a hurricane is blowing through. I know for a fact that the HOB should be able to catch clay particles and clear the water as it was able to turn the water from a clay milkshake (from clay-heavy mineralized topsoil) to crystal clear overnight in my last tank. So maybe a bacterial bloom after all?


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## Freshfishguy (Apr 7, 2021)

Thenoob said:


> Thank you! I'll take some pH readings throughout the day today to see where I am at. I'll also start dosing as soon as I get some appropriately sized measuring spoons (lost my old set apparently).
> 
> In other news, I ran the full gambit of tests to see where everything was sitting.
> Ammonia: 0.5 ppm
> ...


Congrats on having nitrates! I would definitely suggest getting a PH Meter to take your PH readings—the API test is just too hard to get accurate measurements. Here’s the one I use: pH Meter, Dr.meter Upgraded 0.01 Resolution High Accuracy pH Tester with Backlit Two-Color LCD Display and ATC, 0-14pH Measurement Range with Data Hold Function Digital pH Tester Pen-PH838 pH Meter, Dr.meter Upgraded 0.01 Resolution High Accuracy pH Tester with Backlit Two-Color LCD Display and ATC, 0-14pH Measurement Range with Data Hold Function Digital pH Tester Pen-PH838: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific.


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Seems way too early to me, but started popping nitrites today, pretty low but definitely a purplish tinge to the test. Ammonia also crept up a bit to between 0.5 and 1.0 so looks like a little leaching is going on. Three hours into the photoperiod I'm at around a 1 point pH drop (I think...).



Freshfishguy said:


> I would definitely suggest getting a PH Meter to take your PH readings—the API test is just too hard to get accurate measurements.


Totally agree with this, just a question of whether I buy a new membrane proper head thing for my old Hannah pH pen or just get a new one. Probably won't be for a week or two since the wallet needs a recovery period.

Also started dosing at around half-strength EI so nitrates are in the 15 - 20 ppm range now. Since I'm currently doing daily water changes I plan to dose macros every day right after and micros every day in the morning before lights on.









Still having a bit of a hard time deciding on how much flow to run overall and how much to run through the cerges reactor. Currently running the pump around 50% power which has most of the plants waving in the current a bit. I'm sending a good portion of it through the cerges. Getting some gurgling from the reactor so still not quite dialed in.

Plants seem to be fine, not really doing anything yet. Also no signs of algae so far so I'll take that as a win.

In other news, the cloudiness is the same if not worse. I gave up on running the HOB after I had to clean the sand out of the impeller for the fourth time. Hoping its just a bacterial bloom and not my rocks... Currently trying to brainstorm a way to stuff a bunch of polyfill in my sump.

The haze is bad enough you can actually see it in the picture. If you look closely at the top of the picture you can see faint smokey clouds of whatever it is being blown around.


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Been a bit since the last update so first things first - pictures!









I apologize for the poor full tank shot, the glare from the hanging light makes it tricky to photograph









Close up on the wood featuring some new plants I glued to the wood yesterday.









View from the side of the tank, I find this view very artsy.

New plants:
Anubias Barteri round leaf (yesterday)
Bucephlandra Sp. Green (yesterday)
Another Crypt. Sp. Unknown (last week)
Ludwigia sp. Unknown (salvaged from the failed emersed bin) has longer and thinner leaves than the L. Repens
Rotala sp. Unknown (salvaged from the failed emersed bin)

Now that the pictures are posted on to the boring details. Since my last update, a number of things have changed or been tweaked. The largest of which was uprooting all of the plants three days after planting to add more blasting sand I realized that after settling my substrate was under an inch deep in places. During that, I also took out some of the rocks from the wood mound and shifted a few to the right rock ring I'm now referring to as the "Stem Den." Still not sure if the scape is right but I'm pretty happy for my first real attempt at a real scape.

Plants have been growing well but perhaps a bit slowly. The hair grass is starting to put out some runners and will probably need a trim soon. All of the crypts are putting out new leaves and the large anubias is looking like it's maybe thinking about putting up a leaf soon. The java ferns have started rooting into the wood and one of them is just starting to form what looks like daughter plants. The hydrocolotye seems very happy and is putting up lots of much larger leaves. The ludwigia's seem perked up quickly but started showing yellowed new growth. I suspected it was an iron problem that motivated me to get my dosing to a consistent plan vs. random chaos. However, I am now wondering if it wasn't actually a deficiency since the same leaves are starting to develop a slight but nice-looking orange tinge. Really looking forward to being able to top the stems to get rid of the old damaged emersed form leaves. Luckily I have seen no algae (knock on wood) except for a little bit of brown slime-like stuff on the old leaves of only a single crypt. Once it gets a few more leaves I will snip its old leaves off.

Current dosing:









I also moved the lights a few inches closer to the tank, bumped CO2 up to two bbs (nearly double), and spent a few hours dialing in return nozzle positioning. Took some more pH readings today.








The left two viles are the tank right before CO2 turns on (two viles since it's at the cross of the high and low test kit). The middle vile is two hours later at lights on and the rightmost vile is around the midpoint of the phot period. If I am reading the colors right I am getting a drop from 7.8 to 6.8. Drop checker is turning green (not sure if it's the right green since I've never had a drop checker before) around the 1.5-hour mark from lights on. Still planning to get a pH pen but I need to do more research on brands, calibration, and proper storage before I spend the money. The plants seem to be very responding very well to the new ferts, light, and CO2 so things seem to be on the right track!

The next steps going forward is to finish populating the rocks and branches of the wood with buce, anbuias, and moss. Still going back and forth on what to put where.

As always any comments, suggestions, or thoughts are appreciated!


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## vanish (Apr 21, 2014)

Are you sure the pump is surging?

When you said you had a fill drain cycle, my brain says one return line is going into full siphon, which drains faster than normal until the weir is empty. The weir then fills while only some water is draining until one line goes full siphon again. Repeat.

I run a beananimal overflow on mine and this is a scenario I can produce consistently when one line is airlocked. In the sump, I put in a small bleed hole above the water line with an airline valve on my full siphon line that let's me break the airlock. I only need to use it if I fill the sump first during a water change, before turning the pump on.

I don't know that this will help you, but I would check your setup carefully.


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

vanish said:


> Are you sure the pump is surging?
> 
> When you said you had a fill drain cycle, my brain says one return line is going into full siphon, which drains faster than normal until the weir is empty. The weir then fills while only some water is draining until one line goes full siphon again. Repeat.
> 
> ...


As best as I can tell the pump is surging. I was able to see slight changes in the amount of water coming through the weir teeth, air lock is a possibility though. I have the overflow plumbed as a standard Herbie style - a main siphon drain and a fully open emergency drain. The fill drain issue occurs randomly even after running continuously and doesn't always suck the water level in the box low enough for the main drain to draw air which makes me lean away from air lock. I've also tried running the main drain fully open for a half-hour and very slowly closing it off to ensure it's fully purged but the issue still occurs.

Customer service sent me a new pump but not a new controller so we will see if that solves the issue. Personally I thought the issue was more likely to be with the controller then the physical pump but I am hopeful this fixes my issue.


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Thenoob said:


> As best as I can tell the pump is surging. I was able to see slight changes in the amount of water coming through the weir teeth, air lock is a possibility though. I have the overflow plumbed as a standard Herbie style - a main siphon drain and a fully open emergency drain. The fill drain issue occurs randomly even after running continuously and doesn't always suck the water level in the box low enough for the main drain to draw air which makes me lean away from air lock. I've also tried running the main drain fully open for a half-hour and very slowly closing it off to ensure it's fully purged but the issue still occurs.
> 
> Customer service sent me a new pump but not a new controller so we will see if that solves the issue. Personally I thought the issue was more likely to be with the controller then the physical pump but I am hopeful this fixes my issue.


Well the new pump was way worse. I could hear the surging and see it in the ripples on the water surface. This seems to hint it might be the controller. However, I am also kicking around the idea I was putting to much back pressure on the pump with the cerges reactor valves causing heat build up. Using the orginal pump again with the cerges valves opened up more and it might be an improvement. 

The downside of this is that I can not get my cerges tuned right to save my life. Managing to spit bubbles and build up gas in the reactor all at the same time. I don't mind little micro bubbles, but some are big enough to quickly head for the top of the tank.

On an unrelated note my tank refuses to finish cycling. No ammonia for about two weeks but nitrite won't go to zero.

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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Been a while since my last update since life got pretty busy for a bit. The tank finally cycled a week or two ago and is now home to one mystery snail, two nerite snails, four (supposedly) Amano shrimp, a couple of trumpet snails, and about a billion limpets that must have come in on some of the plants.

A few weeks ago I was having issues with new growth coming in very pale, almost white. Since my pH before co2 is well over 7 I picked up some Fe-DPTA to hopefully keep the iron in solution longer than the EDTA in CSM+B. The plants are still coming in a bit pale, but definitely seem to have improved. I'm hoping things will continue to improve with time. In the past week, I have had some issues with necrosis on old-growth which I suspect might be an after-effect of the iron deficiency?

I'm still having issues with diatoms on plant leaves. Hoping this will go away on its own but any advice or suggestions would be welcome.

I also got some tissue cultured buce and anubias a while ago. Pretty much all the leaves on the buce melted but the rhizomes are still greenish so I'm hoping they make a comeback. The tissue-cultured Anubias hasn't really done much either way.

Did a trim today and hacked all the plants back pretty aggressively. Here is the tank post trim.


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Two weeks since my last update and saw some good growth on the hydrocoytle. The tank was getting pretty overgrown so gave it a good hack and whack to open things up a bit.

Before trim FTS









After Trim FTS









Still having some issues with leaf necrosis, pale/yellowing, and loss of leaves on the ludwigia. Nitrates tested in the 30 ish range so decided to bump up my potassium dosing a bit on a whim to rule it out. 

















Current Dosing









I also picked up 20 blue diamond shrimp this weekend from a local seller. I don't really know anything about shrimp grading but they are gorgeous with a very deep, dark blue. The shrimp are so dark that they show up as black in all the pictures I've taken.

















I also found out that the 'Amano shrimp that were currently residing in the tank are likely wild-type neos. Since I don't want my future generations to lose their blue the "amanos" have been banished to the large open chamber in my sump. So far I've managed to catch two out of the four. The remaining two have proven themselves worthy adversaries and will require force of will and gumption to catch.


A few more random pictures of the tank I took this week that I thought looked decent:


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Just a quick pick I thought was neat of Anubias Frazeri putting up three new leaves at the same time. I haven't had any of my anubias put up so many at once before.









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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Did a very aggressive trim on the hydrocoytle today and I can finally see my crypts and java fern again! The hydrocotyle growing wrapped along the full length of the wood is a nice look but it's very hard to control due to its quick growth! As a result, I am suspicious that it has been choking out the other plants for both light and flow. I am also picking up some more plants this week and needed to clear some room for the aroids (bet no one will be able to guess all three genus correctly )










In other news, I turned up my pump to increase overall flow through the tank and slightly bumped CO2. I also added a chunk of 30 ppi poret foam over the central outlet tube in the cerges reactor. I've been having issues with gas build-up in the cerges during the photoperiod which makes me think I am getting poor dissolution of the co2. However, increasing flow through the cerges just lead to it spitting bubbles that were large enough to quickly reach the surface. With the poret now installed I am able to push a higher flow rate through the reactor as the foam is acting as a bubble trap. I am still getting some microbubbles but I don't mind them.

As always any feedback, comments, or thoughts are welcome.


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Another week another update!

First up a low-quality full tank shot









Featured in this full tank shot are some new aroids I got from a local hobbyist this week. The new aroids consist of:
Aridarum Montanum
Anubias nana
A variety of unidentified buce
Crypt. Nurii

You may also notice significantly less hydrocoytle growing wrapped along the wood than previously. This stuff grows so fast it was getting to be a pain to keep it under control and it seemed to be blocking the stems from getting enough light and flow.

Other than the new plants, the only other change is an increase in my iron and micros dosing levels. I am still seeing some pale new leaves and decided to try running heavier traces for a few weeks to see if it makes a difference.









Also, have some closeup pics of the new plants

Aridarum Montanum









A. Nana









Buce mix. If anyone recognizes any of these buce species please let me know!

















C. Nurii
























This is my first time keeping C. Nurii so I am very excited. I have to say that it does look a bit different then some of the pictures I've seen online. The leaves are narrower and more upright and the pattern is a bit different. Nonetheless, it is a very pretty crypt with a pink and green tiger-like pattern on the leaves. These low-quality pictures really do not do it justice


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## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

Tank looks great - nice work!


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

EmotionalFescue said:


> Tank looks great - nice work!


Thank you for the kind words!

All in all I'm pretty happy with where things are at with the tank roughly 2.5 months old. I just need to track down the cause of the lingering paleness on some plants and work on a more cohesive planting layout.

I've been thinking more and more that I would like to switch the light out but I think that's largely due to my need to constantly tinker. Sometimes it's hard to just stop and smell the roses.

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## Fat Guy (Nov 19, 2003)

Coool journal! I love hydrocotyle in any aquascape. I’m growing some emersed out of a jar on my windowsill. It’s wild when it gets out of the water. Anyway, nice job drilling the glass on this. Looking good.


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Just wanted to share a picture of my anubias frazeri flowering submerged. Also featured is an unknown buce putting up a bud.

More detailed updates coming later this week.









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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Life has been busy so long overdue for an update!

First some FTS pictures. The first one is from a couple of weeks ago and when I think I was the happiest with the look.










I eventually got annoyed with having to weed whack the hydrocotyle pretty much constantly to keep it from engulfing my other plants. So hacked it pretty much back to roots only. Its slowly recovering so the weed whacking will commence shortly I suspect.

This next picture is from today after I cut back all the stems. I decided to just cut and discard the tops in an effort to get bushier, branched growth out of the stems. I've included two veriosn of the picture as I was experimenting with some of the picture settings on my phone.





















Plant growth and health have been good recently aside from black algae that appeared on the leaf edges of some of my aroids and also started covering blades of the hair grass in a very thin layer. I've started treating with H2O2 this past week and have seen some improvement. I suspect the algae may have appeared to do the tank receiving more ambient light in the early morning. To address this, I also set my CO2 to come on earlier in the day. I've also noticed some of the old leaves on my buces aren't looking great. I'm hoping this is just older leaves (from before I got them) dying off since the new growth seems to be healthy.











In other plant health news, the melting and necrosis of the stem plants seem to have been resolved. I am still seeing the white veins on the broader leaved ludwigia. Since the plant seems to be otherwise healthy I wonder if it is just how this species looks?

I'm also hoping for an ID on this plant. I collected it a few months back from a flooded ditch. I honestly thought it was a terrestrial plant and didn't expect it to survive. However, it has grown significantly since I got and I've trimmed off branches multiple times since then. This past week I got off one of the main stems and replanted it to see if the stem would root and start growing and if new growth would occur where the original plant was cut. So far the cut stem seems to be growing and I can see some small new growth forming on the original plant at the site of the cut. Also of note is that the plant is quite aromatic when cut or crushed, almost a little sweet and peppery.











The only other thing of note is that I made some root tabs with 4-6 balls of osmocote plus rolled in red clay and added about six during last week's water change. I also picked up a pinpoint marine pH monitor on sale and have been tracking my pH profile. I would really appreciate some feedback on the profile since it seems to be suggesting I am injecting a lot of CO2!

My degassed pH was 7.4 after a day and a half. I intended to check it again after another day or so but forgot and left the sample out uncovered for another four days. Upon checking it today (five ish days since it was collected from the tank) I measured a pH of 7.7. I'm not sure if the rise to 7.7 was due to further degassing or the effects of evaporation? I set aside another sample after my water change and will check it more frequently this time.

pH profile:
9:30 am (CO2 turns on): 7.30
10:10 am: 6.76
11:02 am: 6.52
11:30 am: 6.45
12:33 pm: 6.35
1:43 pm: 6.32
2:30 pm: 6.27
3:00 pm (lights turn on): 6.25
8:50 pm: 6.22
Steady at 6.2 till CO2 off at 10:00 pm
Lights off at 10:30 pm


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## Freshfishguy (Apr 7, 2021)

Thenoob said:


> Life has been busy so long overdue for an update!
> 
> First some FTS pictures. The first one is from a couple of weeks ago and when I think I was the happiest with the look.
> 
> ...


The PH in your tank could also be a bit lower than in the degassed sample you left outside due to your soil and driftwood. Several of the most distinguished growers on the site have even larger drops than your 1.1ish drop (around 1.4), so I wouldn’t worry about it.

Everything is looking great!


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## rzn7z7 (Aug 17, 2013)

Thenoob said:


>


The tank looks good! What's the foreground/carpet plant?


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

rzn7z7 said:


> The tank looks good! What's the foreground/carpet plant?


Thanks! The carpet plant is Eleocharis parvula that's been trimmed short. It doesn't get very tall so I only trim it once a month or so.

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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Good news! The tank successfully survived an 8 day vacation which I am very happy about. Since this was my first longer time away from the tank I did have a freind stop by twice to dose and check the drains weren't plugged.

The plant that may or may not be water cress decided to hog wild while I was gone. It's filling pretty much the full back right corner and root systems is massive.

Pictures are before and after.































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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

The tech bug has bitten me again and I got myself a late Christmas present. I won't be setting up right away as I need to figure out aestheticly pleasing bottles and mounting since it will likely be external to the stand.

I just started front loading my macros so for the time being I will probably only use it to dose micros and Fe-DTPA. However, I have given some thought to trying a daily low dose of urea or adding iron gluconate into the mix.

If anyone has any tips on auto doser or specific dosing plans using them I would love to hear them!









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## niget2002 (Dec 20, 2020)

If you're looking for ideas for 'aesthetically pleasing' storage containers... I'd recommend Voss bottled water bottles. The ones my local store carries holds 500ml. They're plastic, but hold up really well. Plus they're fairly cheap if you ever need to replace one. Not sure if you can get the stickers/lettering off.

I, personally, use 500ml pyrex flasks off of amazon, but my wife also calls my tank a 'science experiment'. Not sure if that's the look you're going for.

I'm still only dosing Thrive. I haven't taken the plunge into a multipart dosing regime, so I can't answer your question about plans. I just dose the one liquid daily just before my co2 turns on for the day.


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Time for a much-needed update and a request for some advice on some algae and plant growth issues. I'll warn y'all in advice this post is quite hefty.

First thing first is a current full tank shot.








If you look closely you'll notice a few new plants that I haven't mentioned before. These include:
Crypt. Wendtii 'Bronze
Bolbitis heudelotii
Süsswassertang 
Lagarosiphon madagascariensis 
Christmas moss
Some sort of dwarf lily/lotus
I got all of them except the lilly these from @Wasserpest about two months ago. So far they've all been doing pretty well for except the Süsswassertang which hasn't really grown much. Currently, the Lagarosiphon is looking a little shabby as I almost killed off with hydrogen peroxide and excel dosing.

Looking closely you might also notice that I finally, after six months, have fish! There is now a school of White Clouds calling my tank home. Supposedly I bought 13 from the store this Tuesday, however, I've only managed to count 12 so far. They are very quick so I'm not particularly confident in my count. So far I've managed to avoid a mini cycle and testing has not shown any ammonia or nitrite spike. I was worried since previously the tank's only inhabitants were neo shrimp and snails. I think the lack of mining cycle is due to a combination of the large plant mass, extra water volume from the sump, and adding a bottle of Tetra Safe Start to give the bacteria a boost.

I had a surprisingly difficult time finding these regular, wild-type White Clouds. All of the stores local to me stock only the gold and longfin variety so I had to special order these. I am a little suspicious that some of the fish might be one of the other related species or color morphs as there is a number of different fin colorations. Some of the fish have red fins with white tips, red fins with yellow tips, or mostly yellowfins. Nonetheless, I am loving having them and starting to think ahead about either increasing their numbers or adding another species that can handle room temperature water.

I've made some other changes since my last detailed update. I don't remember when I made them so I will just list them:

The sponge over the central tube in the cerges has been removed due to constant clogging
To get a better flow in the tank, the cerges was retuned, the outflow was modified with spray bar-like holes, and the pump power was adjusted.
I made some modifications to the 3D printed shrimp/leaf guard and started using it full time. The leaf guard is less prone to clogging than the screen I previously used so there is less variation in the water level. This made it much easier to dial in the amount of surface ripple.
I've been slowly working the CO2 up to higher levels, currently running with a drop checker just shy of yellow.
I switched to front-loading all of my macros a few weeks ago with a good response in plant growth rate. However, I have been having some health and algae issues recently, not sure if it is related.
Reduced my FE-DTPA dosing by a third last week.

Now the issues. In the past few weeks, I've seen an increase in algae of almost variety, green spot/dust, BBA, staghorn, and brown algae. It's been mostly minor, and I think I managed to kill off most of the staghorn and BBA with excel and peroxide spot treatments. The green spot/dust and brown algae on older leaves of the anubias, crypts, and hydrocoytle are my main concern now. I've also seen a significant amount of twisting in the leaves of my ludwigia this week. I've always had some twisting, but this is much more than usual. I also have some general concerns about plant health since some still don't look great.

The ludwigia is probably the worst-looking plant. Aside from the heavy twisting it just doesn't look quite right to me. I've always seen ludwigia with nice compact growth, and dark green leaves with red undersides. When I first got this plant (~six months ago) it looked how I would expect. Pretty quickly it started stretching into leggier growth with these massive thumb-sized leaves. The leaves always have this yellowy-orange color with essentially no red on the underside. Once it gets close to the surface it does start to get more distinct orange coloration.

















Buce Green Wavy is another problem plant. I got this one from tissue culture a few months ago. It consistently doesn't look as healthy as the other buce I got from a local hobbyist. The leaves come in very pale then darken somewhat in uneven patches. The leaves all look much paler than the pictures I see online.

















This Buce also seems to have some issues. The new leaves look pretty healthy to me. However, the older leaves will occasionally start turning a bleached whitish color. The central leave on the bottom of the picture is currently affected. The central right-pointing leave is also showing some early signs. Its hard to see in the picture with the glare









Here are some pictures of the green spot algae that starting to cover some leaves. I also see dark black algae (probably BBA) edging older leaves of some of the slow growers. It's hairy or fluffy, just a dark black coloration on the leaf edges.

















Other none algae issues. A few weeks ago I started seeing both planaria and hydra. This was before I had the fish so it was only shrimp in the tank. From what I see online, these usually seem to be tied to overfeeding. Before I had the fish, I feed the shrimp some veggie once a week at most. Sometimes I would skip a week or two since the shrimp never seemed very interested in the veggies.

Relevant tank parameters:
Temp: Unheated, 67-72
Light duration: 8 hours, on at 3 pm, off at 11 pm
Water changes: 60% weekly with surface vacuuming of carpet and accessible substrate. 2 out 3 filter sponges rinsed in tank water, filter fleece replaced.
Dosing:









CO2: on at 10 am, off at 10:30 pm, drop checker is light green edging to yellow.
I do have pH monitor that I've been trying to use to track the pH drop due to CO2. At light on the tank pH is around 6.08 and it stays stable within 0.1 through the photoperiod. The problem is I am having a heck of time figuring out my degassed pH. In the morning before CO2 on, the tank pH is usually around 7.2 so I have at least a 1.1 pH drop. However, I don't think my tank fully degasses overnight so I usually pull out a water sample early in the week and let it sit for a few days. The issue is, the pH reading for that sample is all over the place depending on long I leave the probe in. For example, today I recorded readings at various time intervals from a sample I have degassing since Tuesday.
5 min: 7.44
10 min: 7.44
15 min: 7.49
20 min: 7.53
25 min: 7.55
45 min: 7.45
1 hr 35 min: 7.68
2 hr 20 min: 7.53
Even more confusing is that if I leave the probe in the sample overnight the pH reading usually drops to 7.1 ish. If I stir it around the readings jump back up. Using the API liquid tests I usually get around 7.6 as best as I can tell.

Currently, I am thinking about reducing my Nitrate and Potassium levels and increasing Phosphate to see if it has any effect. Possibly 20-10-20? Let me know any thoughts and suggestions, they are always much appreciated!

P.S. Let me know if you have any criticism of my writing style. I starting to study for the GRE and I haven't done much non-technical writing in the past few years.


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## Freshfishguy (Apr 7, 2021)

Thenoob said:


> Time for a much-needed update and a request for some advice on some algae and plant growth issues. I'll warn y'all in advice this post is quite hefty.
> 
> First thing first is a current full tank shot.
> View attachment 1037238
> ...


That’s awesome that you’re studying for your GRE! I thought your writing style was good. Concise and very easy to follow. If you’re interested at all in improving grammar, I’d highly recommend learning comma rules inside and out. I’m in law school though, and plenty of people even at this level of education don’t have comma rules completely down, so it isn’t necessarily crucial haha. However, I think it makes a big difference. 

This is what I mainly used to helped me win against nuisance algae like staghorn, bba, and cladophora: reducing lighting to 5-6 hours and/or reducing light intensity, dosing excel, and removing algae infested leaves. What is your KH? You may be able to get away with less than a 1pt PH drop if your KH is above 4-5. This is the most recent advice I’ve heard though on calculating a sufficient PH drop:


“1. Take a test-tube, fill one-fifth with water and measure its pH.
2. Take the same test-tube above and shake vigorously for 3 minutes to de-gas dissolved CO2.
3. Measure the pH of the de-gassed water and compare it with the initial pH.
4. Target a 1pH difference between the 2 readings.”


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

Freshfishguy said:


> That’s awesome that you’re studying for your GRE! I thought your writing style was good. Concise and very easy to follow. If you’re interested at all in improving grammar, I’d highly recommend learning comma rules inside and out. I’m in law school though, and plenty of people even at this level of education don’t have comma rules completely down, so it isn’t necessarily crucial haha. However, I think it makes a big difference.


Thanks for the feedback! I have to say, commas are the bane of my existence. At various points throughout school, I've deep-dived into the rules, but they never manage to stick in my brain. The other specific thing I am currently working on is using "but" less. I don't know when it started, but I've recently noticed I am using "but" way too much! Yes, I did just use "but" twice in the last three sentences 😅 .

I tested my tank kH tonight and about got 4~5 dKh. The sample started to change color at 4 drops and then changed fully at 5. I also carefully recalibrated my pH probe and did some more tests.
Testing a 24 hour degassed sample gave a reading that rose from 7.3 to 7.4 in the first 15 minutes before dropping to 7.2 over the next half hour.

Next, I tested a fresh sample of water taken from the tank in the middle of the photoperiod and got 6.08. Right after, I placed the probe in the tank I got a reading of 5.84. I've noticed the readings tend to be different if they are in still or flowing water.

Lastly, I tested the 24 hour and fresh sample with the API liquid tests. To me, it looks like the degassed is around 7.6 and the fresh sample is between 6.0 and 6.4. I didn't seem to be able to get much of any color change when I tried the shaking method. I ended up just testing a degassed and fresh sample separately.


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## Freshfishguy (Apr 7, 2021)

Thenoob said:


> Thanks for the feedback! I have to say, commas are the bane of my existence. At various points throughout school, I've deep-dived into the rules, but they never manage to stick in my brain. The other specific thing I am currently working on is using "but" less. I don't know when it started, but I've recently noticed I am using "but" way too much! Yes, I did just use "but" twice in the last three sentences 😅 .
> 
> I tested my tank kH tonight and about got 4~5 dKh. The sample started to change color at 4 drops and then changed fully at 5. I also carefully recalibrated my pH probe and did some more tests.
> Testing a 24 hour degassed sample gave a reading that rose from 7.3 to 7.4 in the first 15 minutes before dropping to 7.2 over the next half hour.
> ...


Sounds like you’re definitely getting enough CO2 to me? At least a 1pt PH drop, and possibly up to 1.4ish, which as long as your fish aren’t super stressed is great for pickier plants.

What brand regulator do you have?


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

So far no issues with my fish or shrimp, everyone seems happy, active, and are eating well. I did lose two of my three nerites at various points in the past two months. I'm not sure if it was co2 or something else that got them, they never seemed very active in my tank. Perhaps they didn't like the cooler water?

My regulator is a diy setup I built back in the 2010s and then had in storage for years. It's a lab grade air products regulator I bought on ebay from a laboratory close out. The post body kit I got from another member and consists of a NV-55 needle valve and KIP solenoid.

The needle valve is definitely the weak leak of the system. It holds a stable bubble count, but I have a heck of time making fine adjustments with it. Once I got it close I tightend the set screw and now adjust my flow rate by increasing working pressure. I know this is somewhat frowned upon, but with a low range (0-25 psi) lab grade regulator I can adjust the pressure in very small increments.









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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

The end of an Era...

After fighting a massive wave of green spot followed by the invasion on a seemingly un-killable staghorn and decorating plant health I did a massive rescape of the tank about a week ago. Here's the final picture of the tank with its orginal scape.










Part of the reason for the reason for the rescape was that the gorgeous stump I used a centerpiece was falling apart which I suspect was not helping the algae problem, though I'm sure monkey with co2 in an attempt for better efficiency was also a main cause. I also needed to get in there and remove as much dead and dying plant matter and algae as I could.

The new scape is all local rock (a mud stone I believe). I've also decided to just accept that this tank needs a high injection rate, bring nitrogen levels up to 25 ppm, and try to avoid excel and h2o2 (I managed to melt a lot of the plants at one point). I'm also currently using flourish comprehensive with some addironal Fe-DTPA instead of the CSM+B & Fe-DTPA I was using.


Here's how it looks one week in. It's a bit crowded as there are some crypts and lily bulbs I need to sell or give away. The left is also a mess as I am mainly working on bringing my stems back from the brink of death. However, I would appreciate any critiques or suggestions.









The final news is that I picked up a fluval 3.0 a few days ago. I had to hang it pretty high to get decent coverage and the ends still seem a little dark. Any feedback on the light settings are appreciated as I chose them somewhat arbitrarily.









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## Count Krunk (2 mo ago)

Overall I think your tank looks quite nice, don’t be too hard on yourself.

what ended up being the issue with the overflow cycling?

mudstone?


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