# Algae/ deficiencies in EI tank... please offer suggestions



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Not enough CO2. You can't determine how much CO2 you have by measuring the tank water pH and KH. That will almost always give you a number that is way too high.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Get a drop checker with a 4dkh reagent, place it low in the tank prefereably on the same wall as the filter outlet spraying co2 around and wait for it to turn green/yellow. 

Really the best way to determine proper co2 levels other then plant health, which is obviously telling you something.


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## lescarpentier (Feb 2, 2008)

I can tell you right now that your flow is woefully inadequate.This may be preventing the CO2 from being distributed evenly throughout your tank.

Your XP doesn't deliver near the gph that is claimed.More like 187gph in reality.In addition,your reactor is reducing the actual flow probably another 50%.The 204 doesn't do much either.

It seems that your KNO3 dose is off the chart too.


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

bsmith782 said:


> ...other then plant health, which is obviously telling you something.


No kidding :icon_roll
Thanks bsmith and hoppy. I have read a bit about drop checkers but hadn't realized that they are considered to be state of the art in the hobby, or so it would seem.



lescarpentier said:


> I can tell you right now that your flow is woefully inadequate.


In setting up the tank, I thought I would have lots of flow. Actually it is a 304, not a 204, and it is virtually media free, although that probably doesn't make a ton of difference. But what you are saying does make sense, especially since about a month ago, BGA would grow on the foreground plants near the centre of the tank, which is probably an area of lower flow.

So, I guess I am in the market for a drop checker and perhaps a powerhead/ water pump to increase circulation. I will do some research, but if anyone reading this would like to make a suggestion as to brand/ type of powerhead, fire away.

And *lescarpentier*, I found that dosing regimen for KNO3 on Tom Barr's website (a post by Greg Watson). I also found a post by Craig (wolfenxxx) on the thread "dosing regimens" (a sticky) that states the same thing. Excuse my ignorance (I have a lot of reading to catch up on)... could you make a recommendation for my tank? I suppose since you think my KNO3 dosing is too high, you'd suggest cutting out the K2SO4 as well?

Thanks again; I really appreciate all the advice from the plant experts!! :thumbsup:


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## Joetee (Mar 28, 2006)

I really like the Green Leaf dropcheckers. I have had another one but the normal one they sell with the wide open mouth has given me the fastest reading time. My old one took several hours to change color after adjustments were made. This one http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/algae/80274-algae-deficiencies-ei-tank-please-offer.html I bought two of them now. I love it.
This sticky http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/water-parameters/21944-_dosing-regimes_.html for your dosing should be just fine.
Now my water is hard and contains phosphates so all I add is the KN03, CSM+B, extra Iron, and GH Booster, Also Excel.
This has really helped with my algae and now everything is looking great.
Joetee


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

jart said:


> pH = 7.4
> kH = 3; I figure this gives me > 30 ppm CO2.


Disregarding the potential difficulties in using the CO2 chart, if your pH in the tank is 7.4 with a KH of 3 you have essentially no CO2 in the water. Is the 7.4 a typo or the water prior to injecting CO2? If you had a pH of 6.4 with a KH of 3 you'd have ~30ppm.


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

imeridian said:


> If you had a pH of 6.4 with a KH of 3 you'd have ~30ppm.


:icon_roll Yes, that is a typo. My pH is indeed 6.4. I am actually the unofficial proofreader for my department at work, and now you guys have found two typos in my post :hihi: . Thanks for checking out my numbers that closely, *imeridian*.

Thanks for the drop checker suggestion, *Joetee*. I appreciate it!


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## lescarpentier (Feb 2, 2008)

jart said:


> And *lescarpentier*, I found that dosing regimen for KNO3 on Tom Barr's website (a post by Greg Watson). I also found a post by Craig (wolfenxxx) on the thread "dosing regimens" (a sticky) that states the same thing. Excuse my ignorance (I have a lot of reading to catch up on)... could you make a recommendation for my tank? I suppose since you think my KNO3 dosing is too high, you'd suggest cutting out the K2SO4 as well?
> 
> Thanks again; I really appreciate all the advice from the plant experts!! :thumbsup:


3/4 tsp just seemed like a lot to me.
I have a pretty high bio load,and I am a slacker when it comes to cleaning my filters so I am almost self sufficient with my nitrates.Some weeks I don't even dose them.If you haven't already done this,test for nitrates to see what your tank really needs.

I couldn't tell you much about the K2S04,but I dose 1/16tsp 3 times a week in a 44.

GL!


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Aside from correcting the possible CO2 issues, if this were my tank I'd be tossing in a teaspoon of K2SO4 after the weekly water change.


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## Joetee (Mar 28, 2006)

lescarpentier said:


> 3/4 tsp just seemed like a lot to me.
> I have a pretty high bio load,and I am a slacker when it comes to cleaning my filters so I am almost self sufficient with my nitrates.Some weeks I don't even dose them.If you haven't already done this,test for nitrates to see what your tank really needs.
> 
> I couldn't tell you much about the K2S04,but I dose 1/16tsp 3 times a week in a 44.
> ...


I find that consistency and balance usually works best. I used to follow the EI method rigorously. I believed I needed everything on the list at the prescribed amount. Even knowing my tap water has high phosphates I still added them. I had algae problems. Not saying phosphates caused the algae but my tanks were out of balance. This is what I think caused my trouble. Then the EI method was adjusted. It seems K2s04 wasn't needed for the most part. So i dropped it. But I still dosed KH2P04. Then I got brave and stopped that as well because I had enough in my tap water.
Now I think my tanks are much more balanced because my algae issue is now minimum. I only dose KN03, CSM+B, extra Iron, Grumpy's GH booster, and Excel to amounts prescribed in EI. This is only for my tanks. I might not work for your tanks.
You just have to experiment and see what works. I don't perform water tests unless I feel a need. I don't calibrate my test kits either. I only use them as a reference. Your tanks will tell you more if given the time to.

Joetee


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

Thanks for the additional comments; they are most welcome.

I do finds this all a bit puzzling, I must admit. I could see if I was having trouble growing more difficult plants. I didn't really know that slightly (perhaps) inadequate levels of CO2 could cause such problems with Hygrophila and Ludwigia repens. The odd thing is, even the floater Salvinia auriculata, which spreads like mad in my low light tank, does very poorly in this tank. 

I have some reading to do, I must admit.


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## Joetee (Mar 28, 2006)

lescarpentier said:


> 3/4 tsp just seemed like a lot to me.
> I have a pretty high bio load,and I am a slacker when it comes to cleaning my filters so I am almost self sufficient with my nitrates.Some weeks I don't even dose them.If you haven't already done this,test for nitrates to see what your tank really needs.
> 
> I couldn't tell you much about the K2S04,but I dose 1/16tsp 3 times a week in a 44.
> ...


No, for a 72 gallon tank, 3/4 tsp is about right.

60~80gal
50% H20 change-weekly
3/4 Tsp-KN03 3x a week
3/16 Tsp-KH2P04 3x a week
1 Tsp-GH booster once a week
15ml 3/16Tsp-Trace 3x a week
Optional
4-8ml-Fe/Iron 3x a week

Joetee


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## Joetee (Mar 28, 2006)

jart said:


> Thanks for the additional comments; they are most welcome.
> 
> I do finds this all a bit puzzling, I must admit. I could see if I was having trouble growing more difficult plants. I didn't really know that slightly (perhaps) inadequate levels of CO2 could cause such problems with Hygrophila and Ludwigia repens. The odd thing is, even the floater Salvinia auriculata, which spreads like mad in my low light tank, does very poorly in this tank.
> 
> I have some reading to do, I must admit.


Lets see if we can get to the bottom of this.
You said you had a 72 gallon tank. I believe you mentioned 3 watts per gallon of lighting. What color spectrum is your lighting? 6700k? Check your reflectors and make sure they are clean. If these are AH Supply you can spread out the reflectors a bit to spread out the light some.

You mentioned you had floating plants, do they cover the surface of your tank, not letting enough light come through?

You don't have a drop checker so you really don't know your levels. Hoppy said your levels seem low. What is your bubble count/rate of your co2? Until you get a drop checker I would take a bubble rate count and then increase it a bit. Watch your fish closely, you do not want them at the surface gasping. You can increase this a little everyday. If your fish start acting strange or gasping back it off a little. Count your bubble rate for accurate adjustments. 

You need to make sure you have good surface movement. You can use a power heads, raise your filter output, spray bar, etc. Make the water ripple just a little. You need good water movement down deep in your tank too. You should see your plants moving a little.

Make sure your filters are cleaned regularly. Clean them in a bucket of tank water not tap water. I use carbon and always have. Some don't. Change 1/2 of it every month or so.

Try to dose your tanks everyday at the same time, ie every night or every morning. Don't skip any day except the 7th day. If your not useing Excel, try it. What a difference it made in my plants. I dose it everyday 7.5 mil in my 29 and 15 mil in my 50.

How long has this tank been set up? My 29 was set up for a year with 100% Flourite. I pulled up everything and replanted my tank one day. And what a difference this made. My plants just boomed with grouth. I'm not sure why but I think it was because the substrate got all turned over and maybe released some toxins or something, don't know.

Have you tested your tap water? Different times of the year, your tap water can change. Mine does. Adjust your EI dosing to your tap water and also your fish load. My tap water contains phosphates and a high fish load adds more nitrates.

You can check this site and others for plant deficiencies.
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/deficiencies.htm

This is all I can think of at the moment. Any one else have some idea's?

I hope this helps.
Joetee


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Those plants are hurting for CO2.
Swords will cannaibalize themselves like that, so will some Hygros for carbon to keep the new leaves growing and up towards the surface if CO2 limited.


Some plants do well, some do not.
This is often the case with okay CO2 for some plants, but poor CO2 for other species.

Do you think all aquatic plants have the same ability to sequester CO2?
Think about that, _plant=plant competition.
_
Keep thinking................

Keep thinking...............

And keep thinking.................

You have high light, you have nutrients, neither of these will be limiting.
Water changes? Does the tank do and look better a day or so then goes back to so so conditions? 

Plants will start to compete with eachother in limiting situations.
This is why things like Hydrilla, a noxious horrid weed, will displace the native species in Florida and cut down dramatically on diversity. Hydrilla is very very good at getting the most common limiting nutrients, dissolved CO2.
Most aquatic weeds are like this. That's why they grow so fast and the others do not.

Same type of thing here in our tanks. 
Some plants are really aggressive and good at getting CO2, some look terrible. Stunted tips, holes in the leaves(sorry, this is not K+ here, we know the K+ is ample and non limiting), leggy growth, poor color etc etc etc........

And of course algae on some species, but not others...........

I'd really focus and tweak the CO2, clean and prune off the algae that is there slowly, say over 1-4 weeks. It should stop growing if the CO2 is good and the plants are growing well. Use only 110 W on for 4-5 hours at a time and midway, switch the lights from front to the rear bank etc.

Adjust the CO2 slowly and when you are around to keep a close eye on the tank and fish. You might need a bit more current and make sure the surface has some movement, not so much as to break the surface at all however.

Be patient adding more CO2.
Do it slowly, it can kill your fish if you rush things.

Start there.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

I have a 70g tank similar setup as yours. As far a getting circulation down lower in the tank, I purchased the HK-2 http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewI...view~idProduct~HD00591~idCategory~FIPHAD.html

I really think it is the right size for the 70g. HK-1 would definitely not do the job, and the HK-3 would be too strong....blowing plants sideways.

Curious, I don't think I understand what Tom meant by this


> You might need a bit more current and make sure the surface has some movement, not so much as to break the surface at all however.


 My spray bar is creating very good movement, but I'm not sure what breaking the surface means. I get strong solid waves across the tank, with one spray bar. The second spray bar (output from DIY CO2 Reactor) is a little deeper (3+ inches) comes out right behind the HK-2 which is pointed down to distribute my CO2. I've got SO MUCH plant mass in my tank that if it were possible for plants to out compete algae, I wouldn't have any, because my tank is absolutely full of plants.

Not redirecting thread..but to show you what I mean take a peek.
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii288/manwithnofish/General Aquarium/IMG_0431.jpg
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii288/manwithnofish/General Aquarium/IMG_0432.jpg
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii288/manwithnofish/General Aquarium/IMG_0434.jpg
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii288/manwithnofish/General Aquarium/IMG_0436.jpg

Oh, yes...almost forgot. Dosing EI, I cut back to 3/8 tsp KNO3 and 2/8 tsp KH2PO4, 3 times a week. 10 ml Flourish Excel twice a week. 50% wc


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

I don't use the EI method but that seems like a lot of phosphate. What are you dosing for potassium?


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

Thanks for all the replies. I have been busy reading them thoroughly and doing some research. The input thus far is very appreciated!



Joetee said:


> What color spectrum is your lighting? 6700k? Check your reflectors and make sure they are clean.


Yes, 6700 k. For now, I think I will leave my lighting as is (I increased the height of the bulbs over the tank quite some time ago when the diatoms appeared).



Joetee said:


> You mentioned you had floating plants, do they cover the surface of your tank...


No. The floater is Salvinia, which is a virtual weed in my low light tank. It does very poorly in this tank. Since it is a floater, I wouldn't think it would be CO2 limited. I'm not sure why it is doing poorly.



Joetee said:


> You don't have a drop checker...


I have been researching this and have confirmation that Orlando with Green Leaf will ship a drop checker to Canada. I'll order one tomorrow.



Joetee said:


> How long has this tank been set up?


Only a few months ago. 

The other advice you have given is great.



plantbrain said:


> Those plants are hurting for CO2.
> Swords will cannabalize themselves like that, so will some Hygros for carbon to keep the new leaves growing and up towards the surface if CO2 limited.


Interesting, to say the least.
I never would have thought that this was a carbon issue.
Thanks for the astute advice. I think until I get my CO2 slowly optimized, I may try supplementing with some Excel over the short term.
Good to know that this is not a K issue; I found it difficult to believe that it could be, but the pinholes are very striking to see (not so much in the pictures, I know).

I will follow your advice. Thanks!

*Manofmanyfish*, I was actually considering two of the Hydor Koralia Nanos.
http://www.petsolutions.com/Default.aspx?ItemID=41400542

What do you think of that plan? I like a very full tank as well; not great at aquascaping.

*To MarkMc*:
KNO3 3/4 tsp 3x/week
K2PO4 3/16 tsp 3x/week
I have cut out the extra K2SO4 as per Mr. Barr's advice in this thread.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

Can't remember the thread, but there is one out there with much testimony from folks with every size HK there is. You might see if you can find that before you make a decision. The thread I'm thinking of was probably on APC but may be similar one here. http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/equipment/56411-hydor-koralia-pump-size-number-lg.html

I would be interested in your follow up if you do go with the two nanos.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jart said:


> T
> *To MarkMc*:
> KNO3 3/4 tsp 3x/week
> K2PO4 3/16 tsp 3x/week
> I have cut out the extra K2SO4 as per Mr. Barr's advice in this thread.



You have plenty of N, P, and K. check
What about GH? Are you adding any Gh booster?
Plenty of light. check

Not much left really other than CO2.
then basic stuff like cleaning the filter often, water changes, adding algae eaters etc. 

EI is not written in stone, the upper bounds are only to show that the nutrients are independent and you can rule out a limitation there. Then you need to look elsewhere like at light or CO2. Once you nail those two down well, then you can reduce nutrients to suit. Adding ADA As or soil based sediments also reduces water column dosing demand.
So you need less, but adding more does not harm anything either and extends the life of the nutrients in the sediment.


Good idea to use Excel till the CO2 is tweaked, but give things a few weeks/days to see if the CO2 is good or not. You might add some carbon after a water change also.

Your tank will not use as much nutrients as EI provides, particularly if the CO2 is poor. Same with light. But generally you can provide non limiting CO2, and nutrients with less, not more light......... much easier.

So consider reducing light if you want slower rates of growth and less issues with CO2/nutrients.

This applies to any dosing method.

CO2 is the hardest variable to nail down well, and nutrients can affect the demand, as can light. So be careful and do this slowly.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

I suppose it is time for an update. 
As of this evening, the plants are pearling like crazy. There are still signs of deficiencies in the leaves of the tenellus and the salicifolia. However, the number of affected leaves appears to be much lower. I am extremely pleased.

Here is what I did over the last month:

1) I bought a Cal Aqua "Double Check" drop checker from Orlando, and slowly bumped up my CO2. As of this evening, my pH is 6.0. Note that this is a full 0.4 less than I was previously running. Comparing the two colors, the drop checker is still saying I am still a bit low on CO2. I will consider increasing it further over the next few days. Fish are all fine.

2) Since my taper water gH is quite low (thanks Tom), I am supplementing with CaCl2 (1 tsp) and MgSO4 (3/4 tsp), both once weekly on WC day.

3) I added a Koralia 2 power head.

4) I cleaned both canister filters, and pulled out all plants, trimmed off any distorted leaves, and replanted.

Thanks to all who replied to this thread. I appreciate it a lot. 

Oh yeah, scored some Eriocaulon cinereum, Marsilea quadrifolia, and Lilaeopsis brasiliensis this weekend. :thumbsup:

The next thing I will consider is lowering the lights a bit (they are fairly high over the canopy at present). I think I'll wait a week or two first.


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

Well, they're back :icon_roll
Huge, crater like holes in the leaves of all my hygros. The only exception is Hygrophila difformis.
All plants in the tank are pearling like crazy, including most of the affected hygros. Even my Eriocaulon setaceum is pearling, yet the hygros are suffering. Although, new healthy leaves are growing in on the hygros (near the bottoms). There are still pinholes on several leaves of the H. salicifolia; most of the leaves are twisted, curled, and stunted. 

L. repens, B. caroliniana, B. monnieri, H. leucocephala... all the easy staples are doing well (except R. rotundifolia).

Earlier this evening I increased the CO2... the bubble counter is going too fast to count. pH is now 5.8. Again, for anyone new to CO2 is reading this thread, plugging my numbers into the pH/ kH chart gives a CO2 reading that is insanely high. But the advice given to me is that this is a carbon deficiency, so I'll increase my CO2.

For the record, the two colours in my drop checker are almost exactly the same at the moment. 
I guess this thread should be proof enough that a drop checker is a good investment.:icon_smil


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Careful with when you measure the CO2 and how the pH is measured.
If you only measure late in the day, consider measuring early, and the first 1-2 hours.

Look around near the outflow of the CO2. Hygro grows very fast and will demand more CO2 than many other species, keep it well trimmed.

Then see about the light.

I know some folks that used the pH/KH chart said they had , at least according to the chart, 200 ppm............before they had decent growth etc, and their fish where fine swimming around etc.

Bt a DC is only a rough guide at best and it takes some 2- or more hours before you see the change. Watch the plants, they are an even better guide/test kit. 

Just keep tweaking the CO2 slowly.
Give the plants some time to adjust to a good supply.

In natural systems, most of these plants grow together(eg, Florida) and Hygro is very dominant in some systems and an exotic invasive weed, mostly due to CO2 competition etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## captain_bu (Oct 20, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> In natural systems, most of these plants grow together(eg, Florida) and Hygro is very dominant in some systems and an exotic invasive weed, mostly due to CO2 competition etc.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


How do CO2 levels in natural systems compare to the levels typically used in our tanks?


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

sorry, double post.


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

Thanks Tom... I will continue to slowly increase the CO2 as per your advice.
I'm really not sure why my Rex type reactor is so inefficient... as I stated above, the bubble counter is going like crazy. Anyway, I'll increase it a bit more.

For reference I'll attach a couple of clearer pics. 









This is the affected H. polysperma. These leaves all appeared perfectly healthy just two days ago. Besides the craters, the leaves are slightly curled.









This is another Hygrophila species. Just last evening, I picked off all affected leaves. Today I came home to see huge holes in the leaves pictured above. The process almost seems to be happening too fast.

The hygros are on the opposite side of the tank, so that would seem to rule out a circulation problem.

I will review the fauna in case I am missing something: cherry barbs, male betta, oto cat, one checker barb, platy, three bristle nose plecos, one molly. I have never observed any of these fish eating any plants. I would think that if the fish were eating the plants, the leaves would have ragged edges.

I suppose it might be easy to just get rid of the hygros and keep other species, which are all doing well, but I would like to get to the bottom of this.


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## captain_bu (Oct 20, 2007)

This looks more like damage from the plecos than a nutrient deficiency. I had to remove a bristlenose from a tank with sword plants and hygro corymbosa for the same reason.


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## Joetee (Mar 28, 2006)

Are you feeding your fish enough and the right food? Try including some algae waffers if you are not doing so now. I have plecos in my tanks without any of these signs. the damage is coming to fast for nutrient deficiency.
Joe


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Those Hygros are pretty sorry looking

Here's a tank with lots, and high nutrients etc:










They got very large and took over, I ended up planting about 1/2 the tank with them. They only got holes when the CO2 went down.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Joetee (Mar 28, 2006)

Hey Tom, that is a beautiful tank.
Joe


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

That Tom, always posting pictures of my tanks...:hihi:

But in all seriousness, I appreciate the advice. Joetee and captain_bu: I have been feeding the plecos zucchini slices, but perhaps I'll supplement their diet with some algae wafers. I had researched these plecos before I bought them and was unaware that they would do damage to plants. I am still not certain that they are the culprits, but I think it is important to rule that out. 

Even if my plecos are eating some of my Hygros, I still have to deal with the issue of the twisted, stunted leaves on the salicifolia.
I'll keep you posted.


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

pH is now stable at 5.8 to 5.9 during the time that the lights are on (I just increased my photoperiod from 7 to 8 hours).
I had to back off on the CO2 when my plecos were becoming +++ docile.
So I increased it as much as I could. My DC says my CO2 is fine (FWIW) and my plants are pearling like crazy.

But the holes are still there (a lot of new leaves were affected in the last few days). True, this may be due to a fish; but there are still some leaves displaying deformities as well. I have been maintaining my CO2 rate for about 2 weeks now... just wondering when this should start to disappear. Things are a lot better that before in terms of the number of leaves affected, but this is still frustrating. Just wondering when this will finally be resolved.

As an aside, on the advice of another planted hobbyist, I increased my phosphate dosing to 1/4 tsp three times weekly... and, since the leaves of my L. repens looked quite faded near the edges, I increased my dosing of traces slightly. This has led to quite an increase in the coloration of the Ludwigia. Perhaps this has also led to increased demand for CO2 as well.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Shelled peas are awesome for many herbivores, shrimps included.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jart said:


> That Tom, always posting pictures of my tanks...:hihi:
> 
> I'll keep you posted.


The Behemoth tank is also EI dosed and has some of the largest Giant Hygro you will likely ever see.

So address it by good feeding, good CO2, you can also reduce the light if the CO2 is lots of trouble for you. They grow like weeds otherwise.


Regards, 
Tom barr


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## Joetee (Mar 28, 2006)

plantbrain said:


> Shelled peas are awesome for many herbivores, shrimps included.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Tom, The shelled peas?
Do I put them in the microwave for 10-15 seconds to soften them and then just squeeze out the insides into the tank? Will this sink or float around the tank and get sucked up by the filter?
Joe


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

Well, my pH has been optimized for 2 weeks now. By optimized, I mean:
1) CO2 increased until fish lethargic, then slightly decreased until fish acting normal.
2) pH decreases from 6.9 (morning) to 5.9 (before lights come on).
3) Drop checker turns appropriate color.

Yet still I am getting twisted leaves on my Hygros.
I can deal with the crater holes... they may be damage from one or more of my fish. I am feeding them veggies. But the twisted and stunted leaves, I don't like.

OK... so I should just stop growing Hygros, I guess. 
The rest of my plants are doing very well, although the tenellus is still suffering a bit.

I really would like to have figured this out... I have grown Hygros very successfully in the past.

Over the past week, my Anubias put out a new leaf. Hard to tell from the pic, but it is quite pale and the edges are very curled. It is the leaf in the upper left of the picture. Any ideas? If this is still a carbon issue, what should I do? Switch to another method of CO2 delivery? :icon_conf


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Read the whole thread (similar issues) and while I understand 'Rex' style down flow reactors decrease the filter output by the induced flow path changes how is it inefficient in its delivery if the CO2 is completely absorbed into the water (no bubbles) before discharge into the tank?


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

Missed this...Sorry about the late reply Racer. I am getting very good growth at present... simply gave up on the Hygros and moved them out of the tank. Whether or not a different CO2 delivery system would have made a difference... well, I guess I won't know for certain, at least for a while. Some folks on this forum are big proponents of the needle wheel method of CO2 delivery. If you are really interested, you may want to check out some of Orlando's posts on the forum. Of course other folks know lots about this as well. Sorry I can't offer anything more than that. Good luck with your tank.

BTW, the Anubias leaf ended up developing normally after starting out curled.

The only plant that develops craters/ holes at the moment is Cardamine lyrata. But no twisted/ deformed leaves though.


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

I thought I would update this thread.
I ended up getting rid of my external CO2 reactor, and recently installed two Hagen Elite Mini filters, each supplied by its own needle valve. So far, the misting method has worked quite well.

Plants are pearling like crazy, but it is hard to tell how much of this is due to deposition of tiny CO2 bubbles from the Elite Minis. Growth is not as explosive as I had thought it might be, but at present my lights are about 12 inches over the water surface.

My plan now is to gradually reintroduce the offending plants (mostly Hygros) to see if the change in CO2 delivery has a beneficial effect. Of course, this will hardly be a valid scientific experiment, since 1) I am now dosing extra iron, 2) months have passed, and 3) I have replaced existing bulbs with GE 9325k bulbs, but I think it might be of interest nonetheless. 

Hopefully I'll be able to find a source for H. corymbosa 'compact'... love that plant...


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Joetee said:


> Tom, The shelled peas?
> Do I put them in the microwave for 10-15 seconds to soften them and then just squeeze out the insides into the tank? Will this sink or float around the tank and get sucked up by the filter?
> Joe


Sure, that will work.
Tasty peas........

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jart said:


> I thought I would update this thread.
> I ended up getting rid of my external CO2 reactor, and recently installed two Hagen Elite Mini filters, each supplied by its own needle valve. So far, the misting method has worked quite well.
> 
> Plants are pearling like crazy, but it is hard to tell how much of this is due to deposition of tiny CO2 bubbles from the Elite Minis. Growth is not as explosive as I had thought it might be, but at present my lights are about 12 inches over the water surface.
> ...


You might try a bit more GH booster, the Mg/Ca may be a bit low, I have very low GH here, but add GH booster at about 1-2 tsp per 60 gal on tank 1-2x a week. Some species of hygros are not good competitors for CO2, so some species will do well, and then the hygros or wimpy competitors will not.

Upping the CO2 typically helps, and this is one of the main reasons we add CO2 besides faster growth rate, reduces plant- plant competition for CO2.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

I thought I would update this thread for the benefit of others.

So much has changed in this tank over the last few months.
I have tried different levels of lighting. Thanks to Hoppy for all the useful information he has posted over the last few months.

I tried 2 x 55 w (I have AH Supply lighting) directly over the tank. I wasn't getting good growth at all. So I reviewed some of Hoppy's information. Maybe it might be better to have _more _light (4 x 55 watts), but _raise _it higher over the tank. So for the past 2 weeks, I have had the lights about 22 inches above the substrate. Growth of some plants has been great, whereas before that, they were not growing at all.

So to summarize, I believe that the issues that I first posted about in the beginning of this thread were related to, first and foremost, lighting (and arguably not CO2). At the light intensity I had in the beginning (4 x 55 w directly over the tank), I couldn't provide enough CO2 to keep up with demand.


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

"So to summarize, I believe that the issues that I first posted about in the beginning of this thread were related to, first and foremost, lighting (and arguably not CO2). At the light intensity I had in the beginning (4 x 55 w directly over the tank), I couldn't provide enough CO2 to keep up with demand."
I'm confused now. Are you saying that the pinholes/holes in the leaves were caused by not enough light? And that the problem was not CO2?


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

I think he's saying he had too much light and couldn't provide enough CO2 for that amount of light.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Which is to say...........hardly anything to do with EI or dosing.

As is most often the case.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

pinholes are from a lack of potassium I believe.


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

Jeff5614 said:


> I think he's saying he had too much light and couldn't provide enough CO2 for that amount of light.


Correct. So much has changed since then but I think all paths lead to an excess of light. Now that I've raised them higher, things seem to be much better.

This statement I really found interesting: 


plantbrain said:


> Those plants are hurting for CO2.
> Swords will cannaibalize themselves like that, so will some Hygros for carbon to keep the new leaves growing and up towards the surface if CO2 limited.


Plants were in need of CO2 since my lighting was too high.
Quite a change in thought from just a few years ago, where you "had to have 3 wpg" to grow R. macrandra.

bsmith thanks for the suggestion, but I have always been dosing 3/4 tsp KNO3 three times a week, so I had already ruled that out as a possible issue.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

If you have found the issues then im very happy to hear that, it can be quite frustrating to try to track them down. 

Here is a great deficiency chart I use.


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

Jeff5614 said:


> I think he's saying he had too much light and couldn't provide enough CO2 for that amount of light.


That's what I thought. This is what confused me: 

"So to summarize, I believe that the issues that I first posted about in the beginning of this thread were related to, first and foremost, lighting (and arguably not CO2)." 
CO2 and lighting are not exclusive of each other-you say tomawto I say tomaito-not enough CO2 or too much light-6 of one half dozen of the other...
you get the picture:icon_wink


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

MarkMc said:


> CO2 and lighting are not exclusive of each other-you say tomawto I say tomaito-not enough CO2 or too much light-6 of one half dozen of the other...
> you get the picture:icon_wink


Sorry about the confusion. I think we all have it straight now.:icon_cool
And actually, I say _Solanum lycopersicum_.


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