# Which loaches stay small and non-aggressive?



## DaveS (Mar 2, 2008)

Zebra loaches (botia striata) would fit the bill. They are my favorite loach by far. They get about 4" as adults, are very social and great in community tanks.

Dave


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## cah925 (May 18, 2007)

My fav is the Burmese Border loach, Botia kubotai. These also grow to about 4", but they grow slowly. They like caves and hiding places, but will come frequently if they don't feel threatened. I had 2 to start with and noticed they came out a lot more often after I added 3 more.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

DaveS said:


> Zebra loaches (botia striata)...


I was looking at these. Good to hear from someone who has personal experience with them.



cah925 said:


> My fav is the Burmese Border loach, Botia kubotai.


One of my favorite LFS had these in stock and suggested them to me, but I hadn't done my homework so I decided to wait. I like these, but their markings are a little too much like my Chain Loaches. I'm thinking I want something a little more different just so I can have a variety from my other ones.

Actually, if there were more loaches like my dwarf chain loaches, but with different coloring/markings, I'd be in love. I really like my dwarf chain loaches' personalities! They are a riot at feeding time! I have thought of getting something like 20 of them for my 75g since they're so much fun in large groups. but I'm afraid that would be too much activity for the dwarf cichlids I'm wanting to add.


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## comet (Jun 10, 2006)

Here's a link you may want to look at. I found it very helpful as to which loaches do in fact love snails and other care/breed info.
http://www.loaches.com/species-index/species-index


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I love my botia histrionica -s


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## original kuhli (Nov 28, 2006)

Kuhli's and hillstreams shouldn't be forgotten, although I suspect you're after the body of a clown type.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

mistergreen said:


> I love my botia histrionica -s


Still the black and white markings similar to my dwarf chain loaches, but their description sounds interesting. I especially liked that they are more active during the day. But where do you get them? I couldn't find them online?



original kuhli said:


> Kuhli's and hillstreams shouldn't be forgotten, although I suspect you're after the body of a clown type.


I don't like hillstream loaches (no offense to those who do; just not my personal taste).

I'm not especially after a clown shape. I just want snail eaters. I didn't think kuhlis ate snails. If they did, they might be on my list given how small they are.

One loach I was interested in, colorwise, is the suma loach _(Schistura balteata)_. Unfortunately, they appear to be aggressive towards each other. The information didn't specify if you're supposed to keep just one or if they prefer to be in groups, but the description that you have to make sure that there are plants and decor to prevent them from seeing each other in order to tame some of the aggression concerns me. If I could have snail control with just one of these, that would be fine. But I wouldn't want to be unkind to them if they need to be in a group, and I don't want aggression problems in my tank, even if it's only between their own. Hoping to have dwarf cichlids in the tank is enough aggression for me.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Ooops! Double post.


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## MedRed (May 20, 2008)

i have dwarf and zebra in a 25 gallon community tank. They are both very peaceful, though active. My dwarf chain loaches didn't touch my snails. The zebra loaches wnet to town on the MTS! It was like genocide!


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## Lupin (Nov 21, 2006)

original kuhli said:


> Kuhli's and hillstreams shouldn't be forgotten, although I suspect you're after the body of a clown type.


As much as I hate the fact loaches are used to eliminate snails, I would like to point out that neither of the two you mentioned will eat snails unless you count the snail eggs. Hillstream loaches need an appropriate tank setup in order to thrive. A planted tank is out of the question because hillies prefer powerful currents and cooler waters so unless you plan to even use CO2 tanks and the fact most plants seem to prefer warmer temperatures, then the hillies are out of the question as much as planning a planted tank for them.

Complexity, the following match your criteria..
1. _Botia striata_
2. _Botia histrionica_
3. _Botia kubotai_
4. _Botia rostrata_


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## MedRed (May 20, 2008)

Bluebell said:


> As much as I hate the fact loaches are used to eliminate snails, I would like to point out that neither of the two you mentioned will eat snails unless you count the snail eggs. Hillstream loaches need an appropriate tank setup in order to thrive. A planted tank is out of the question because hillies prefer powerful currents and cooler waters so unless you plan to even use CO2 tanks and the fact most plants seem to prefer warmer temperatures, then the hillies are out of the question as much as planning a planted tank for them.
> 
> Complexity, the following match your criteria..
> 1. _Botia striata_
> ...


I have to disagree with the assessment of the hillstream loaches. I have 3 four year old reticulated hill stream loaches and 3 three year old chinese hillstream loaches in a community tank that is kept at 78 often reaches 80-82 in the summer. Other than the two filters and the airstone that comes on at night... there isn't anything that would classify a "powerful" current. They are healthy, active, and haven't shown any signs of distress.

I read your post and had to turn on the lights in this tank to take the picture. This tank is actually going through a rescape... but here is the tank...










and here is one of the loaches... he just happened to be on the front glass when the lights went on... go figure!


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## Lupin (Nov 21, 2006)

It can work, Medred, however I don't find it appropriate to keep them long-term in warm temperatures nor is it proper to keep them where there is no strong currents. Tell me your idea of "powerful currents" if you didn't see anything classified as such.

How long have they been living in your tank? Perhaps you should read the articles in www.loaches.com most especially this article. It doesn't make sense that the idea of them to "keep still" is being where there is no currents. Their body structure is designed that they can cling on rocks where powerful currents are most prominent. If you spend a few hours time to look into the forum of Loaches Online, you will understand better what exactly is this fish's idea of "keeping still". Just because it worked for you doesn't mean you have to tell everyone to apply the same thing you employed.

If you take a look at their pictures further, do you see anywhere else where water is basically stagnant yet the hillies supposedly thriving? Not many people were able to keep them alive for long because of inappropriate tank setups which is why I choose not to suggest them where CO2 injections and setups where currents are not a must is concerned.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Thanks everyone! I think I'm going to try to get some Zebra loaches _(Botia striata)_. I had already been considering them, and the information received here confirms that they would be a good choice for my tank. I also like their markings. Hopefully, I can find someone locally to special order some for me (along with a number of other fish in hopes of getting the price down).

Bluebell, I understand your reservations of having loaches for the purpose of eating snails, but after having given it considerable thought, I have concluded that most fish we buy are bought for a specific purpose of some sort, be it to add a flash of color (cardinal tetras), to enjoy their breeding colors (dwarf cichlids), or just because we like them (guppies!). They each serve a particular purpose for us all. So why not buy fish for the purpose of keeping the snail population in check?

As long as each fish selected is given proper care in a healthy environment, I don't think it really matters why we buy them. I find that getting fish for a certain purpose actually helps to widen my enjoyment of fish that I might not otherwise get, such as my dwarf chain loaches. I know I would never have gotten them had I not wanted them to help control my snails, but after getting them, they opened my world to their adorable personalities. Now they are a favorite in my tank! I would have never found that enjoyment had I not wanted them for the snails. Now I not only have fish that help with snail control, but fish that I have learned to enjoy and appreciate for themselves and of themselves. The snail control is just a bonus.

And speaking of dwarf chain loaches controlling MTS snails, I have found them to be helpful. They will not eat the larger snails, but they do a good job on the smaller ones which serves to not eradicate the snails, but to help keep their numbers in check. It's the level of control I had wanted (I added the MTS in that tank intentionally).

Now I'm fighting not only ramshead snails, but pond snails from an unsuccessful trade. Those snails have managed to populate all of my tanks, thanks to the use of my python (the only way I can figure out how they've moved into tanks otherwise free of them and without the addition of new plants). The MTS snails don't harm my plants, hide during the day, and help to keep the substrate stirred up. But the ramshorn and pond snails are just unsightly to me. They are on the glass and plants 24/7.

I learned from my MTS that manual control is an exercise of futility. They can reproduce faster than I can catch them.

And for those who think that control is achieved by not overfeeding, I beg to differ as I ran an experiment that proved, at least to me, that snails will not only survive, but reproduce, even when it appears there is no food available for months. I put MTS snails in a bucket with driftwood and a second bucket with nothing but rocks. The driftwood and rocks had both undergone extensive cleaning including long term, high dose bleaching, followed by long term exposure to high dose of vinegar. (Long term = 2 weeks or more; high dose = 25% concentration or more). In fact, I used the snails to see if the driftwood and rocks were lethal after having undergone such extensive sterilization.

What I found surprised even me. The snails in the driftwood bucket not only survived, but thrived. They grew and multiplied! It appeared they actually ate the wood. NO food was ever put in the bucket! In addition, when I ran the experiment with the rocks, I was again surprised to find that the snails survived and even multiplied! Again no food was ever given. The snails with the rocks did not multiply as fast as the ones with the driftwood, but not a single one died. I ran the experiment for over 3 months before I gave up.

I cannot say whether ramshorn or pond snails could have survived or even multiplied under the same conditions, but I know for certain that MTS snails cannot be controlled nor eradicated by controlling the amount of food placed in a tank. The fish would die long before the MTS snails.

Sooooo... now it's just a matter of finding some Zebra loaches. I'm thinking 5-7 would be a good number since they do prefer to be in groups. I have found that fish that prefer to be in groups not only do better when in a group, but their personalities come out more which only adds to my enjoyment of them.

Thanks to everyone for their help! I'm looking forward to finding and adding zebra loaches to my 75g tank!


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## original kuhli (Nov 28, 2006)

Ooops, missed the fact you're after snail eaters, nope, kuhli's and hillstreams aren't going to do you much good...


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## newshound (May 9, 2005)

bluebell your taking all of my work away from me :icon_roll 
I will chime in about the hillstream loach issue though.
Fish will survive in conditions that are less than ideal. Is this right?
that is the question that each individual must ask themselves.
I feel that hillstreams need basically what the loaches online page states.
that is the one reason I have never had any.

I think your sids (chainloaches) would do great in that larger tank. They would also take out your snails. 
One person on loaches online actually have his "flock" of sids breed!

O ya loaches need really great water conditions. Over filtered.
I do 50% WC weekly on all my tanks.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

mistergreen said:


> I think your sids (chainloaches) would do great in that larger tank. They would also take out your snails.
> One person on loaches online actually have his "flock" of sids breed!


If I didn't already have sids, I'd definitely get some for my 75g tank. They are really fun loaches! But since I need the dwarf size for my 20g tank, the sids need to stay there which means I need to get something else for my 75 (if I want a variety, which I do).



> O ya loaches need really great water conditions. Over filtered.


Do you think a combination of an Eheim ProII 2128 (the largest ProII they make) and a Rena XP4 would be enough? :tongue:


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## rasetsu (Oct 11, 2007)

I have 5 botia striats (zebra loaches) and they are great community loaches. Pretty active come feeding time and they grow slowly. The do eat snails, but have not dessimated my pond snail population in my 75. They don't really go after the big ones probably because they are pretty well fed with bloodworms and sinking pellets.


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## newshound (May 9, 2005)

quit feeding the zebras for a week!
I find that zebras once they mature hide alot of the time vs sids


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## Lupin (Nov 21, 2006)

newshound said:


> bluebell your taking all of my work away from me :icon_roll
> I will chime in about the hillstream loach issue though.
> Fish will survive in conditions that are less than ideal. Is this right?
> that is the question that each individual must ask themselves.
> ...


LOL..Sorry.:eek5:


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## MedRed (May 20, 2008)

Bluebell said:


> It can work, Medred, however I don't find it appropriate to keep them long-term in warm temperatures nor is it proper to keep them where there is no strong currents. Tell me your idea of "powerful currents" if you didn't see anything classified as such.
> 
> How long have they been living in your tank? Perhaps you should read the articles in www.loaches.com most especially this article. It doesn't make sense that the idea of them to "keep still" is being where there is no currents. Their body structure is designed that they can cling on rocks where powerful currents are most prominent. If you spend a few hours time to look into the forum of Loaches Online, you will understand better what exactly is this fish's idea of "keeping still". Just because it worked for you doesn't mean you have to tell everyone to apply the same thing you employed.
> 
> If you take a look at their pictures further, do you see anywhere else where water is basically stagnant yet the hillies supposedly thriving? Not many people were able to keep them alive for long because of inappropriate tank setups which is why I choose not to suggest them where CO2 injections and setups where currents are not a must is concerned.





newshound said:


> bluebell your taking all of my work away from me :icon_roll
> I will chime in about the hillstream loach issue though.
> Fish will survive in conditions that are less than ideal. Is this right?
> that is the question that each individual must ask themselves.
> ...



I understand your concern... but I wouldn't state the conditions of my hillstreams as anything less than thriving. They are super active, they spend the entire day (and part of the night it seems) scouring over the glass and plant leaves. The water is not "stagnant." I completely understand the shape of their bodies. It's obvious that they'd rather carry out normal lives than sit in the flow of the filter outlets. I have 6 of two species that are all 3-4 years old. Their tank is co2 injected and has a canister filter on it. It's very obvious to me that these guys aren't just surviving, they are very happy in their environment.


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## DaveS (Mar 2, 2008)

newshound said:


> O ya loaches need really great water conditions. Over filtered.
> I do 50% WC weekly on all my tanks.


Every time I see a post like this I am thankful my fish can't read and then tell me I have been doing things wrong all these years. That is a pretty broad statement really. I am sure some loaches need great conditions and there are probably some that can live in much less than ideal conditions. In general, loaches need what most fish do ... regular water changes. Over filtration is probably rarely needed.

Dave


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I think www.franksaquarium.com often has zebra loaches. :thumbsup:


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## Gar (Mar 3, 2008)

Bluebell said:


> Just because it worked for you doesn't mean you have to tell everyone to apply the same thing you employed.


This is pretty much the basis of fishkeeping: find out what works, what doesn't work, and report back on it. While you're correct in this instance, don't discourage that sort of behavior. 

Also, it is very possible to have a river setup with plants.  Just as in rivers, there are always areas where the current is not as strong; simply plant plants in places where the current is not as powerful, or find plants that enjoy strong current and are thick stemmed (Giant Hygro for instance).


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## Lupin (Nov 21, 2006)

I realize I may have made a broad statement regarding the plants when it comes to river setups however this does not stop me from believing CO2 injection is not fine for hillstream loaches especially where oxygen levels are concerned.

Medred, how long have the hillies been in a CO2-injected tank if they're 3-4 years old?


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## DaveS (Mar 2, 2008)

Your concerns regarding CO2 injection must be at night only correct? If you have a CO2 injected tank with rapidly growing plants, they are giving off oxygen at a pretty good rate ("pearling"), so I don't see how O2 levels are a concern at least in daylight hours. If night time is an issue, then simply turning the CO2 off at lights out would solve that. I don't see how CO2 injection is an issue at all when the end product from the plant is O2.

Dave


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> I think www.franksaquarium.com often has zebra loaches. :thumbsup:


Thanks for the tip. I found them on his website, not too bad a price if you get 6 or more (which I would), but his are listed as "XL" and I'd rather start off with younger loaches. 

All other places I've found so far are sold out. But I'll keep looking. I don't need them immediately (actually, my tank isn't ready for them, but I do have time since they'll need to go through Q/T first).

If you or anyone else runs across another source for Zebra Loaches, please let me know!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I like starting out with younger fish, as well. Fun to watch them grow up, you get to enjoy them longer, plus I think young ones acclimate to changes better.

You might try calling Frank and see what he says about the size of the loaches- I hear that he's very accomodating and excellent with customer service. He might be able to obtain or pick out smaller ones for you.


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## rasetsu (Oct 11, 2007)

I know Texas is a big state, but I got mine at Dallas North Aquarium.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

IIRC, Dallas North Aquarium ships, don't they? I'll check them out. I also need to contact two of my LFS to see if they'll place an order for me. Surely, this is a type of loach they would be able to sell to others if they have to place a large order just to get mine in. Although, I am thinking of getting around 10 of them and I also want to get about a dozen Torpedo Barbs (aka Roseline Sharks) which isn't cheap so maybe I can work something out with the combination. And then I also want some dwarf cichlids, such as apistos, which is also not cheap. So I have enough in my "want" list that should entice a LFS to work with me. My only problem is that I don't want to add too many fish at once or I'll have one heck of a time trying to quarantining them all!


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## dhavoc (May 4, 2006)

to chime in on the hillies in a planted co2 tank, i too have a couple that are now about 5 years old. they have been happy in my planted high light tank (120g) for 2 years now (since i started it), they originally resided in a low tech 20g the previous 3 years. BUT i agree they belong in a river setup. the two i have are unique, i have tried to add as many as 20 more over the 2 years and they seemed to do fine initially but disapeared over a month or two. finally read loaches page and figured out i was slowly suffocating them to death. i have since setup a hillie only 15g tank with an aquaclear 30, 20 and 2 rio 90 power heads. the new ones i have picked up love it and i think are even spawning.

so Medred, i believe yours are doing great as i have 2 in the same situation doing fine. but i think they you got lucky with those like i did. i have not been able to duplicate getting hillies to survive in a high tech co2 tank.

and to get back on the original subject, i also highly reccomend sids, they are a blast to watch in large groups, and stay small enough to not tear up everything in their hunts for food. they are great at eating small snails like ramshorns and pond, but it dont think they will help much with MTS, the adults are just too tough for them.


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## Farmboy (May 18, 2008)

Hey. I have both kuhlis (the black varity) and yoyos in my community tank and I love'em. The yoyos have kept the snail population in check. There are still a few adult ramshorns but I haven't seen a juvie since I put them in. In fact, I added the rams after I got the yoyos, the yoyos wiped out a couple hundred pond snails in about four days. It's fun to watch the three yoyos chase each other around the tank too! The kuhlis are pretty cool too, more sedate, but more apt to go for a chase in the upper part of the tank. You never know where you are going to see a kuhli head or tail sticking up out of the substrate. Good luck! Ken


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