# Apex color setting Kessil A360WE



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Turningdoc said:


> I'm running the above 34" above substrate, 8" off waterline at 20% power. Low/Med light low tech tank w par 15 substrate at 40ish top of planted areas.
> 
> My question is does anyone have experience with setting color on an Apex system. It looks best at low "%" which I think Max's reds and reduces blues, but not sure. Any input appreciated.
> 
> Kessil bashing not invited as I already bought them!


you have the saltwater version?

AFAICT the freshwater only adjusts between 6000-9000k color temp. No inv. blue or red channel. since they won't tell you the real diode count and type you can figure it out by dim channels to like 10% and see if you see any pure red,blue diodes..
Otherwise it is just white types..
Don't do that w. the reef version, has some (one) UV..Though output in UV is reported to be low.. why risk it.

There sw ones are fine.......... 

There are 2 different approaches.. One is "color" (w/ fw more like white "shade") and then intensity..

see this for some tips, and really check reef sites and translate it for FW.. 
https://forum.neptunesystems.com/showthread.php?930-Sample-Program-for-Kessil-A360W

Since I can't bash Kessil I'll only leave you with this to ponder..



> The kessil rep said they changed to digital controllers instead of pots like the older lights so the light stays off until intensity is at 10%. But when controlled by the apex it only goes as low as 14.


FW only white diodes if this pic is accurate.. Pure blue or red (or any pure color) would be clear in most cases










http://www.kessil.com/aquarium/Freshwater_A360.php

Thanks to some Japanese "reverse engineering" we have what the 350 saltwater version diodes are:









you can see by not seeing where the UV ones are.. none in the fw version.
you can also see where they added more diodes over the 350 if you compare the 360 layout to the 350


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## Turningdoc (Apr 2, 2014)

I have Amazon Sun freshwater. They seem to have good red balance. Maybe the type of "white" diode?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Turningdoc said:


> I have Amazon Sun freshwater. They seem to have good red balance. Maybe the type of "white" diode?


Yep.. They may have some low K whites (rich red) in a channel..Hard to say w/out data..

The orangy looking ones are def lower than 6000K
They could be spiked w/ some low red emitting phosphors as well (circumstantial evidence says no)

unfortunately specs are not available.. >

As to your issue and based on the Kessil logic, best thing to do is pick a "tone" you like and just ramp up w/ the Apex from there..


> Greens aren't washed out at all, I found that the colors really pop around 7000-7500k but 6000k is more relaxing for my eyes...
> I wouldn't go near 9000k which is the max for this fixture...too blue for my taste, it even makes my white frosted background look blue...


In my "great" Kessil search I did find this:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/872513-kessil-360we-my-ada-60p.html
This is your range apparently:
http://www.thetechden.com.au/v/vspfiles/assets/images/Freshwater_A160_img01.gif


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## Turningdoc (Apr 2, 2014)

Funny how all the high tech ends up in eye balling it!


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

FYI: warm white LEDs don't contain enough red spectra to induce anthocyanin production. That means that plants will only develop dull red coloration, not the intense red coloration that is desirable. The spectral graph of the Kessils clearly show that there are no supplementary red LEDs and is thus very weak in this color region.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> FYI: warm white LEDs don't contain enough red spectra to induce anthocyanin production. That means that plants will only develop dull red coloration, not the intense red coloration that is desirable. The spectral graph of the Kessils clearly show that there are no supplementary red LEDs and is thus very weak in this color region.


One,my guess is that the Kessils really don't have any whites one would consider "warm" really. It was "hope" based on the amount and color of phosphors on that board.
The spectrum plots do show that this is probably true..
Second Red is 660 Far red is 700nm in the below article
Effect of Light on Anthocyanin Levels in Submerged, Harvested Cranberry Fruit

One does need a balance for max "light dependent" anthrocyanin production..There are other anthrocyanins. 

But even low red levels in the presence of high light levels will stimulate some. As you note the Kessils are very short in red but high in focused intensity..

Bump:


Turningdoc said:


> Funny how all the high tech ends up in eye balling it!


The eye balling is only for the aesthetic properties..
In general plants care little as to the "color" of the photons, only quantity.

Theoretically at full power the Kessil will produce the same amount of photons regardless of the "look"..


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

jeffkrol said:


> One,my guess is that the Kessils really don't have any whites one would consider "warm" really. It was "hope" based on the amount and color of phosphors on that board.
> The spectrum plots do show that this is probably true..
> Second Red is 660 Far red is 700nm in the below article
> Effect of Light on Anthocyanin Levels in Submerged, Harvested Cranberry Fruit
> ...



Re: Light on Anthocyanin levels in Submerged, Harvested Cranberry Fruit

So the production of anthocyanins are induced by red light wavelengths from 660nm-730nm and do affect submerged plant tissue. That would explain why 3000K LEDs have difficulty turning plants red, because they mostly lack the spectra in this range. This also explains why the "full spectrum" LEDs are easily able to turn plants red, because they are very high in this range and also relatively high in the far red range.

Re: Kessils
Even though they are high in intensity, they still have a lot of difficulty inducing intense red coloration. That's probably why they don't make any note their light fixtures producing red plants on their website.

I suspect that the ratio of red, green, and blue has an effect on plant response but I won't know what until I conduct the experiments.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Pigment production is a bit complicated..
Photosynthesis-dependent anthocyanin pigmentation in arabidopsis


> Light is the key stimulus for anthocyanin biosynthesis among numerous other environmental cues such as temperature, nutrient deficiency, water status, wounding and pathogen attack.1 The production of anthocyanin in young seedlings requires prolonged exposure to visible and near-visible wavelengths of light at a relatively high photon flux, and the extent of the plant response to light is a function of light quality and quantity.2 High-light conditions trigger the accumulation of anthocyanin in vegetative tissues, which serves as a means to safeguard against the detrimental effects of excess light on the photosynthetic apparatus, which can lead to photo-inhibition.


and:
http://www.plantsciences.ucdavis.edu/faculty/durzan/131.pdf
Note nitrate suppression of anthrocyanins..


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Another paper also states that sucrose in the growth media helps induce anthocyanin production. I don't think I'll be adding sugar to the tank, though.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> Another paper also states that sucrose in the growth media helps induce anthocyanin production. I don't think I'll be adding sugar to the tank, though.


They add vodka to saltwater tanks.. why not sugar in fw.. LOL

anyways a minor point is you can have the right spectrum but pigment production can be inhibited by too high Nitrates and/or Ethylene build up (poor gas exchange)

Just an FYI as I see it..

nitrogen starvation for color has been known for quite some time..though it isn't good for plants long term obviously..


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## Turningdoc (Apr 2, 2014)

At 6000-9000K shouldn't adequate spectrum in red range be present to make this irrelevant? At "50%" Apex setting for color, should approximate 7500K which is area most strive for in planted tanks.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Turningdoc said:


> At 6000-9000K shouldn't adequate spectrum in red range be present to make this irrelevant? At "50%" Apex setting for color, should approximate 7500K which is area most strive for in planted tanks.



Problem lies in the fact that the K rating is a "correlated color temp". 
(LED's and florescent are not "black body sources)
since it is an average of all the spectrums all sorts of combinations of ind. bandwidths make 6500k..
There is no way of knowing if it is "irrelevent" without a spectrum analysis..
Kessil knows about color just fine.
Kessil H150 LED Grow Light, Purple | GrowersHouse.com Discount Hydroponics Supplies
BTW if you want some cheap Kessil grow lights that above is a good deal ..

As to color of 6000-9000k..
Pick the one you like the look of. At equal intensity it will not make much difference. Plants may be slightly more compact at 9000K but as pointed to earlier some think this is too blue looking.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Turningdoc said:


> At 6000-9000K shouldn't adequate spectrum in red range be present to make this irrelevant? At "50%" Apex setting for color, should approximate 7500K which is area most strive for in planted tanks.


Plants don't care about color temperature. Like Jeff said, CCT is the average of all wavelengths of visible light, but could spectrally be poor for plants. Even low Kelvin LEDs (e.g. 3000K - blue LED with yellow phosphor) have poor red spectra that isn't capable of inducing enough production of anthocyanin. Thus, CCT is a useless proxy and is only relevant to human vision. Let this temperature myth die.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Solcielo lawrencia;8485954 Even low Kelvin LEDs (e.g. 3000K - blue LED with yellow phosphor) have poor red spectra that isn't capable of inducing enough production of anthocyanin. Thus said:


> Agreed but there are exceptions..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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