# German Blue Ram vs. Apisto Triple Red



## nickcamp12345 (May 2, 2009)

hey guys, 
right now in my 29 gallon tank, i have 2 tiger barbs, 9 neon tetras, 6 black neon tetras, 3 peppered cories, and 2 oto's. I'm looking to replace the two tiger barbs with either an apisto triple red or a german blue ram. the tank is moderately planted and has a decent filter. according to aqadvisor, i will have be just about fully stocked and only have to change around 30% of the water. my question is, from personal experience, what would you rather have in your tank by itself? an apisto or a german blue ram? also how many hiding spots should i have in the tank. i have a cave under a driftwood stump(very sturdy and lots of room and looks really cool) and can fit a clay pot in too. 

thanks in advance, 
nick


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## RcScRs (Oct 22, 2009)

I <3 German Blue Rams...


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## Dempsey (Oct 27, 2009)

I would get a pair of both! It's ashame to see one of each alone.


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## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

Def pair the gbr


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## Dempsey (Oct 27, 2009)

Missed you one question... My GBRs hangout in my rotala and move low in the dwarf sag(They also school with my rainbows!). Sames as my apistogramma's. My female GBR just layed eggs yesterday. I hear allot of things about them being bad parents but both have been guarding the nest sinse yesterday. Who knows what will happen tomorrow. Apistogramma's on the other hand, I hear are good parents. I guess it's all preference but if you're on the fence, get a pair of both!


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## DavidZ (Nov 17, 2009)

Nick, I see your in NY where are you getting your apistos and rams?


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

Get a pair, but not both. Because if both pairs decide to breed; you're likely going to have to move one of the pairs to a different tank.


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## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

I LOVE GBR's, unfortunately I cannot have them at the moment. My shrimp take priority since they were already there lol.


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## nickcamp12345 (May 2, 2009)

DavidZ said:


> Nick, I see your in NY where are you getting your apistos and rams?


Aquarium Adventure on Glenn Cove Road by the Roosevelt Field Mall has German Blue Rams in stock all the time. They get Apisto's every now and then. i was going to go tomorrow since there's a half off sale, but since theres a good chance of snow tomorrow, im going to wait. Last two times I was there, they didn't have any Apistos in stock.


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## nickcamp12345 (May 2, 2009)

Do you guys think I'll have enough room to have a pair of either one? I know the tetras are small, but there's 15 of them along with 3 peppered cories and 2 oto's. thats the only reason why i which one would be better by themselves because i'd love to have a pair.


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## Rod Hay (Feb 11, 2006)

Dempsey said:


> I hear allot of things about them being bad parents but both have been guarding the nest sinse yesterday. . . . . tomorrow. Apistogramma's on the other hand, I hear are good parents.


The basic difference between their parenting skills is two fold.

First, I've almost never seen or hear of Apistogramma females repeatedly eating their eggs, larvae or free swimming fry. Sometimes you can get really confused female GBR that do this spawn, after spawn. Some hobbiest believe it is due to the fact that they are artificially tank raised and have lost their parenting instincts.

The second problem is when the fry begin to swim and forage for food. 


Apistogramma Mommas are amazing! Not only are they fierce defenders of their brood; but they can effectively communicate when danger threatens. And their babies listen! The fry will drop to the substrate and remain motionless until given the all clear. When the fry are new and tiny they remain very close to the female, usually in the lower levels. Often safely beneath her as she herds them around the tank foraging.
http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Apistogramma_agassizii.php
The second photo shows a female in her brood care coloration.

GBR fry hover in a massive, mid-level cloud; their parents kind of in the middle of it. Each day the cloud becomes more loosely defined. The parents really don't control their cluster. With the GBR it seems more that the fry have wanderlust and Mom and Dad are anxiously (frantically) following them. (That is . . if you're fortunate to have a pair that will parent raise their spawn and not eat them. AND if they are in a tank by themselves. If other fish are present, by the second day as the swimming, swarming, cloud expands, they are quickly lost to the happy predators.)
http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Mikrogeophagus_ramirezi.php


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## Rod Hay (Feb 11, 2006)

IMHO, a 29g is plenty of floor space for either a pair of GBR or a trio of _Apistogramma cacatuoides_. Many species of the Apistogrammas are more harem spawners than dedicated pairs. I house most of my trios in 15g tanks - 24" x 12". Fifteen small size tetras is not much of a bio-load on a healthy planted 29g tank. I would even bump up the cories to 5.

Although personally, with the cories still in the tank I'd go with the Apistogrammas - (that's if you can find them.) The Apistos are secretive cave spawners and will be able to better hide their broods, at least initially, from the bottom feeding cories. The GBR are substrate spawners. They 'll lay the eggs out on a flat rock or slight depression in the substrate. Then move them around into a new pit every day until they get them to the freeswimming stage. The GBR will have quite a fight w/ the cories about this. The peppered cories, being a larger species of _Corydora_, will present quite a determined foe.

This is, of course, if you want to witness breeding behaviors. If you just want some pretty display fish, you could go with one GBR and one male Apistogramma.


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## nickcamp12345 (May 2, 2009)

Rod Hay said:


> IMHO, a 29g is plenty of floor space for either a pair of GBR or a trio of _Apistogramma cacatuoides_. Many species of the Apistogrammas are more harem spawners than dedicated pairs. I house most of my trios in 15g tanks - 24" x 12". Fifteen small size tetras is not much of a bio-load on a healthy planted 29g tank. I would even bump up the cories to 5.
> 
> Although personally, with the cories still in the tank I'd go with the Apistogrammas - (that's if you can find them.) The Apistos are secretive cave spawners and will be able to better hide their broods, at least initially, from the bottom feeding cories. The GBR are substrate spawners. They 'll lay the eggs out on a flat rock or slight depression in the substrate. Then move them around into a new pit every day until they get them to the freeswimming stage. The GBR will have quite a fight w/ the cories about this. The peppered cories, being a larger species of _Corydora_, will present quite a determined foe.
> 
> This is, of course, if you want to witness breeding behaviors. If you just want some pretty display fish, you could go with one GBR and one male Apistogramma.


 
Thanks, for the input. I'm not really trying to breed them, i just would like a nice "show piece" fish and rams would be perfect. apisto's look just as good imo and are hardier, but since they like harems and my filtration isn't the greatest, im leaning towards the rams. then again, since the filtration isn't good, the rams could get sick easier. ughhhh. this is tough.


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## miguel959 (Jan 19, 2010)

If you are not breeding, then one of each will fit in fine. That way if you happen to lose one you still have a show piece. If they both acclimate fine then you get two show fish. In a planted tank both Apistos and GBRs will move about in between the plants. Having both of them gives you a better chance of seeing one every now and then. I have had both fish and your foot space should be able to handle both of them.


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## nickcamp12345 (May 2, 2009)

aren't male dwarf cichlids usually aggressive towards eachother?


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## Rod Hay (Feb 11, 2006)

nickcamp12345 said:


> aren't male dwarf cichlids usually aggressive towards eachother?


Not always. It depends on the species. They really should look very similar in body shapes to appear as a potential rival for a mate. Species which are not similar do not (necessarily) elicit aggression.

Second, the level of aggression is much higher when there is a breeding female and they are determined to win her favor, and establish a breeding territory. When actively spawning aggression is usually the highest. Depending on the species, the male will either defend the breeding territory, or actively help defend the fry directly. Any fish seen as a predator, sometimes even certain vegetarians like Ottos, are chased away. Unfortunately some fish are dim-witted. They don't catch on to the boundaries and can catch the wrath repeatedly. Other fish are expert fry predators and will systematically work to take away all the fry.


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## nickcamp12345 (May 2, 2009)

Rod Hay said:


> Not always. It depends on the species. They really should look very similar in body shapes to appear as a potential rival for a mate. Species which are not similar do not (necessarily) elicit aggression.
> 
> Second, the level of aggression is much higher when there is a breeding female and they are determined to win her favor, and establish a breeding territory. When actively spawning aggression is usually the highest. Depending on the species, the male will either defend the breeding territory, or actively help defend the fry directly. Any fish seen as a pedator, sometimes even certain vegetarians like Ottos, are chased away. Unfortunately some fish are dim-witted. They don't catch on to the boundaries and can catch the wrath repeatedly. Other fish are expert fry predators and will systematically work to take away all the fry.


alright, thanks a lot for all the help. i think im going to set up some potential territories and get a trio of apisto's. eventually, when i get more money, i'll buy a better filter and i should hopefully be good to go. if anyone else has any input on this, i'll change my mind if i have to.


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## DavidZ (Nov 17, 2009)

It is easier to get good stock of apistos then GBRs at this time.
Aquarium adventures is over priced and doesn't carry apistos, at least now.
Best to get from a breeder I know one in NY if you need, has some great stock.


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## nickcamp12345 (May 2, 2009)

DavidZ said:


> It is easier to get good stock of apistos then GBRs at this time.
> Aquarium adventures is over priced and doesn't carry apistos, at least now.
> Best to get from a breeder I know one in NY if you need, has some great stock.


when i called them, i asked if they usually have apisto's in stock and they had at least 5 different species. when i went a couple days after, they weren't there, but they had plenty of rams. they're pretty over priced, but i decided to become a club member and you get like 20% off everything which brings the prices back to normal. I would love to know this breeder.


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## DavidZ (Nov 17, 2009)

Nick PM sent


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## grumbolar (Feb 20, 2009)

Apistos can be aggressive like any cichlid, somtimes it depends on the personality of the specific fish. I put two pairs of triple-reds in a planted 45 gal. One bullied, chased, and killed the rest, and nipped at everything else that ever came near him including my cardinals and SAEs. He would even attack the bubbles coming out of my CO2 diffuser. Just a mean guy. But he looked great.


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## nickcamp12345 (May 2, 2009)

grumbolar said:


> Apistos can be aggressive like any cichlid, somtimes it depends on the personality of the specific fish. I put two pairs of triple-reds in a planted 45 gal. One bullied, chased, and killed the rest, and nipped at everything else that ever came near him including my cardinals and SAEs. He would even attack the bubbles coming out of my CO2 diffuser. Just a mean guy. But he looked great.


i guess it all depends on the personality when it comes to dwarf cichlids. i've mainly been hearing good things about apisto's except for breeding which is normal i guess. i've decided im going to go with the rams though.


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## nickcamp12345 (May 2, 2009)

alright so they didn't have any rams or triple reds, but they did have double reds and i bought one for now. he's perfectly fine, his colors are showing up and i have a good feeling he's going to be a very attractive fish when he's fully grown. the only problem is feeding. he's eating bloodworms, but not flakes. i actually have to feed the worms to him one by one since he's still a little scared to feed with all the other fish going after the flakes. i tried placing a flake at the top instead of a worm and he took a bite, but wasn't interested. should i keep doing this until he realizes that it's food and will be his main source of food or is it okay to have his main food at freeze dried bloodworms?


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## DavidZ (Nov 17, 2009)

he will eat when he is hungry, or add some liquid garlic to the flakes.
good luck, I would also feed him some internal parasite food from jungle labs.


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## nickcamp12345 (May 2, 2009)

DavidZ said:


> he will eat when he is hungry, or add some liquid garlic to the flakes.
> good luck, I would also feed him some internal parasite food from jungle labs.


i'll definately look into it. next time i'm at petsmart i'll buy some cause i know you said that they're prone to them. once i see symptoms i'll be ready if necessary.


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