# Help me pick a substrate



## redchigh (Apr 10, 2010)

I like soil. To answer your questions, its quite messy if the cap gets disturbed during the initial fill, or if you have to pull up something with an extensive root system like echinodorus sp. (swords).

Even crypts don't seem to have a big enough root system to be a problem, if god forbid, you have to yank one.

After the soil is established, its not nearly as bad as you'd think. Any soil particles will clump together in small clumps (rather than minute particles that result in a cloud) and either settle back in between gaps in the substrate, or make their way to the filter. Worst case, a few large water changes will clear it right up.

Soil doesn't contain infinite nutrients, but will have enough beneficial organisms (don't sterilise it) to help break down fish waste and food very quickly into forms the plants can assimilate.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

What are the plans for the tank, low or high tech. Will you be dosing the water column?


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## Netcode (May 4, 2016)

redchigh said:


> I like soil. To answer your questions, its quite messy if the cap gets disturbed during the initial fill, or if you have to pull up something with an extensive root system like echinodorus sp. (swords).
> 
> Even crypts don't seem to have a big enough root system to be a problem, if god forbid, you have to yank one.
> 
> ...


Do you find with soil there is an initial release of ammonia or anything else due to the breakdown? Did you ever find it changed your pH?

Also what type of soil were you using? I understand that organic soil seems to be the way to go. Is there anything to stay away from even in the organic products?


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Have you thought of 1" of dirt and capping with SafeTSorb?
SafeTSorb has a pretty decent CEC rating and looks like fluorite!


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## redchigh (Apr 10, 2010)

Netcode said:


> Do you find with soil there is an initial release of ammonia or anything else due to the breakdown? Did you ever find it changed your pH?
> 
> Also what type of soil were you using? I understand that organic soil seems to be the way to go. Is there anything to stay away from even in the organic products?


I usually use dirt, but MGOC potting soil works. I seem to have better luck when its a dense clay or sandy soil just out of the wild, rather than something bagged with a lot of organic matter or peat.



Maryland Guppy said:


> Have you thought of 1" of dirt and capping with SafeTSorb?
> SafeTSorb has a pretty decent CEC rating and looks like fluorite!


I've used something similiar, from wal-mart. At walmart its called oil-dri.
It can cause a pretty high PH drop if its added directly to a tank, but washing it and soaking it in old tank water from a water change helps. I've added fertilizer to the soak water, then rinsed before using it in a tank. I feel like the oil dri absorbs things out of the water at first, which caused the ph drop. So my logic was I could make the oil dri absorb nutrients. I had good growth, but never did a side by side comparison to test. If you want a natural-looking 3-4 mm angular gravel, its a great choice. I just prefer finer substrates and sand now.
Gravel is easier though. Less to go wrong.


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## K1963158 (Aug 15, 2016)

My two cents and advice

Pick the substrate you like the look of. It makes little difference otherwise.....inert substrate require nutrient dosing, nutrient substrates don't initially but eventually "die out" depending on your plant mass and light source so need to be replenished (pain in the butt) or will require dosing of ferts.

So best to make the decision of what you like the look of best then go from there.

Cheers


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## redchigh (Apr 10, 2010)

K1963158 said:


> My two cents and advice
> 
> Pick the substrate you like the look of. It makes little difference otherwise.....inert substrate require nutrient dosing, nutrient substrates don't initially but eventually "die out" depending on your plant mass and light source so need to be replenished (pain in the butt) or will require dosing of ferts.
> 
> ...


I just make root tabs when I feel like the soil is giving out nutrient-wise.
I use Flourish Comprehensive for traces, my fish provide the rest.. Of course I can't grow everything, and more difficult plants don't grow for me... But I was happy with my low-tech growth, and knowing if I had to go on vacation for a few weeks they'd be perfectly fine.
All I ever did was a water change when I felt like it, and Flourish once or twice a week if I remembered.

It should come down to appearance, and the amount of work and money you want to invest. I'm lazy and just love knowing my fish have a lush environment.


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

I don't want to make this more confusing, but unfortunately it is. You have a couple of facts in your OP that aren't really correct. "The only thing that seems to be for sure is that plants like dirt the best. I haven't actually read anyone indicating that dirt doesn't work." I agree, dirt works great, but I grow elephant ear plants in my pond filter. I plant them by laying them in the top of the filter. If they're small I'll put a shallow clay pot in the top and lay the bulb in it. No dirt, no gravel, nothing but water. I get plants 6-7 ft tall with leaves over 4 ft long. There are a lot of hydroponic growers out there that would disagree with the virtues of dirt.

CEC; I've always thought that Flourite had a high CEC, but there is a chart around of actual test that a garden club did, and it's quite low. I throw Eco-comple, and Flora-max right into the same mix. I believe the base rock is the same thing.

Confusing? Yes, unfortunately. I have loads of flourite that I got with my original tank. I've also purchased a bag of BDBS and SafTSorb. I like the looks of all of them and just look at them as something to hold my plants in place. BDBS does that best. Easy to put the plants in and get them to stay and root. I planted new stems in my tank with flourite a week ago. I've replanted lots of them over a dozen times in the past few days. Every time I look at the tank it seems like something's floating that's not supposed to be. It's a total pain.

I think you can grow the vast majority of aquarium plants with any of the popular substrates, or none at all.


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## Netcode (May 4, 2016)

K1963158 said:


> My two cents and advice
> 
> Pick the substrate you like the look of. It makes little difference otherwise.....inert substrate require nutrient dosing, nutrient substrates don't initially but eventually "die out" depending on your plant mass and light source so need to be replenished (pain in the butt) or will require dosing of ferts.
> 
> ...


Yes a substrate will eventually lose the initial nutrients they have. However, to my understanding CEC helps the substrate exchange ions with whatever it is coming in contact with (water in this case). This may or may not be totally valid. I have yet to find out the real answer. Either way, soil is said to have some of the highest CEC because of its ability to support the development of humus. 




Kubla said:


> CEC; I've always thought that Flourite had a high CEC, but there is a chart around of actual test that a garden club did, and it's quite low. I throw Eco-comple, and Flora-max right into the same mix. I believe the base rock is the same thing.
> 
> Confusing? Yes, unfortunately. I have loads of flourite that I got with my original tank. I've also purchased a bag of BDBS and SafTSorb. I like the looks of all of them and just look at them as something to hold my plants in place. BDBS does that best. Easy to put the plants in and get them to stay and root. I planted new stems in my tank with flourite a week ago. I've replanted lots of them over a dozen times in the past few days. Every time I look at the tank it seems like something's floating that's not supposed to be. It's a total pain.


Yes, you are correct, it is a popular misconception that Flourite is a high CEC substrate, when it fact it is not. It is also marketed as a high iron substrate, when in fact it may not even be accessible to plant roots. 

I have some flourite in my tank, it looks great but I will agree that plants tend to come loose. It is quite light. 

As for BDBS - have you noticed it affect pH?


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

Netcode said:


> Yes, you are correct, it is a popular misconception that Flourite is a high CEC substrate, when it fact it is not. It is also marketed as a high iron substrate, when in fact it may not even be accessible to plant roots.
> 
> I have some flourite in my tank, it looks great but I will agree that plants tend to come loose. It is quite light.
> 
> As for BDBS - have you noticed it affect pH?


Maybe, I didn't even relate it to that. I have a 20g long that got kind of neglected. Now that I'm getting it back on track I realized the PH is quite high. I pulled out some rocks and have done some water changes. I never even thought of the substrate. I still have plenty left in the bag. I'm going to do some test.


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## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

Your two biggest concerns with dirt seem to be Mess and Nutrient depletion. I should first of all add that nutrient depletion is something you probably won't notice for about 18-24 months. Many non-dirt tank need to be broken down in this time frame anyway (because of mulm buildup, or even just aesthetic fatigue) so I don't think this is such a big deal. Still, you can address either the mess or nutrient depletion issue with your choice of cap. 

Sand - for preventing mess
If the cap breaks and some soil leaks out, it will eventually settle on top of the sand cap. If you have good water flow, it will usually aggregate in a little depression somewhere. It is very easy to vacuum this dirt leakage up. I like using a sand cap in tanks where I anticipate cap breakage - cleanup is easy and long lasting. With a hard working canister filter, I find that even after pulling up big deep-rooted plants, cloudiness does not last more than a couple of hours. 

Gravel - for preventing nutrient depletion
Mulm and leaked dirt does not accumulate as a light, easy to vacuum dust over the surface of gravel, as it does with sand. Instead, it slowly trickles down below the cap until it gets to your dirt layer. This means two things: 1) If you're pulling plants out a lot and causing a lot of cap disturbance, you are going to have a bad time. Large particles ultimately want to be below the smaller ones, so you might end up with your cap underneath your dirt layer if you push your luck too much. Gravel vacuuming is more invasive than sand graveling, so if you are not careful, you might break your cap during cleanup. 2) Fish mulm can makes its way down to your dirt layer, where it can become more dirt and replenish the nutrients in your tank's substrate. It's basically an aquatic compost bin. This is the most self-renewing of any substrate arrangement, but it is also a little unforgiving if you are not careful about cap disturbance. 

Gravel is a cap for grownups who have the patience to top off an aquarium slowly. I am more of a tilt-a-5-gallon-bucket-over-the-rim-of-the-tank kind of person, so I usually prefer to use sand.

Bottom line: in two years, you might start to see some growth slowdown with a sand cap. If you don't mind that, I highly recommend sand because it is mess-averse. Even when it runs out of micros and macros, your dirt will still chooch out carbon and you can supplement the other stuff with root tabs. If you want a tank that you can pass down to your grand kids, I suppose gravel would be the way to go.

As for your ammonia spike question: I just don't know. I've seen this issue raised by dirt critics, and I'm sure it happens to some people, but it's never happened to me.


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## K1963158 (Aug 15, 2016)

@Netcode

If you want to go dirt go dirt and look up mineralized soil (search it here) and cap it with what you like. Eventually the nutrients it supplies will peter out and need to be re-done

Or go with inert to begin with (with a substrate you like) and then no need to tear down a tank. I have flourite black sand in mine with a 3 inch layer, it is great to plant in, holds plants down and my tank has been going for 6+ years. I am going to tear it down soon because I'm upgrading to a bigger and nicer tank not because of the substrate. In fact I'm going to re-use my old substrate in the new tank.

All that said I do want to experiment with dirt....but I have an empty 15 gallon for that....I'd be too nervous to start dirt with no experience on a big tank

Keep us posted what you decide and how things turn out!

Cheers


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## Netcode (May 4, 2016)

I think I am going to go with some sort of dirt/clay mix, capped with a clay based product. 

As for the dirt selection, I want to keep it organic. I also want to avoid peat, or anything with heavy organic matter. MTS seems to be the way to go, however I don't know if that is doable this time of year where I essentially live in the cold. I am hoping to find some sort of organic top soil.

I think I would still osmocote lighty

As for the clay based product, I would like something like flourite without the cost. I have heard of Turface, Safe T Dry, and Oil Dry type products, but I am unsure about using them in an aquarium, something about it freaks me out. I may end up paying for flourite.


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## oval291 (Dec 19, 2016)

I am sorry to piggyback on this thread but I wanted to venture into plants when I set back up my 180 freshwater. I wish to go low tech as this is my first time so will be using plants like Java Moss, Anubias. As I want to keep clown loaches in this tank eventually I wanted to go will pool filter sand. Will this substrate allow me to grow these plants?


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## geisterwald (Jul 18, 2016)

oval291 said:


> I am sorry to piggyback on this thread but I wanted to venture into plants when I set back up my 180 freshwater. I wish to go low tech as this is my first time so will be using plants like Java Moss, Anubias. As I want to keep clown loaches in this tank eventually I wanted to go will pool filter sand. Will this substrate allow me to grow these plants?


Yes, though neither java moss nor anubias (nor java fern) should be planted in the substrate. Basically, the substrate doesn't matter for them. They will get their nutrients strictly from the water (and to that end you will need to stock enough and/or fertilize to ensure they get what they need). The only substrate that would affect them would be something like ADA Aquasoil (or its various knock-offs) which supplies nutrients to the water column.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Netcode said:


> As for the clay based product, I would like something like flourite without the cost. I have heard of Turface, Safe T Dry, and Oil Dry type products, but I am unsure about using them in an aquarium, something about it freaks me out. I may end up paying for flourite.


SafeTSorb would be my choice. Save your money.
Both Flourite and SafeTSorb are filthy to rinse, take your pick.
They look identical, in fact Seachem most likely buys such a product and pre-treats it with their own recipe.
It is just fired clay, nothing special about that.
Flourite is very low on the CEC rating where SafeTSorb ranks very well.

You can pre-charge SafeTSorb if you wish.
This depends on how soft you want your final water to be.


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## oval291 (Dec 19, 2016)

geisterwald said:


> Yes, though neither java moss nor anubias (nor java fern) should be planted in the substrate. Basically, the substrate doesn't matter for them. They will get their nutrients strictly from the water (and to that end you will need to stock enough and/or fertilize to ensure they get what they need). The only substrate that would affect them would be something like ADA Aquasoil (or its various knock-offs) which supplies nutrients to the water column.


Thanks for your prompt reply. As I am a complete novice to this would this fertiliser be like Seachem Excel???

Should I also use a base under the sand if I want to add jungle Val and Crypts a bit later? Sorry if these are obvious questions...


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## geisterwald (Jul 18, 2016)

oval291 said:


> Thanks for your prompt reply. As I am a complete novice to this would this fertiliser be like Seachem Excel???
> 
> Should I also use a base under the sand if I want to add jungle Val and Crypts a bit later? Sorry if these are obvious questions...


No, Excel is a source of carbon, not nutrients like nitrogen, potassium, etc. I'm no biologist but a good comparison might be like air (oxygen) vs food for people. Your plants will get some of both, enough to survive usually, just from the natural gas exchange and livestock in your tank, but they will often do better if you supplement CO2 gas or another source of carbon like Excel/Metricide and ferts. Seachem makes a variety of fertilizers and you can get all the macros (main sources of nutrients) and micros (supplemental nutrients) you need from there, but a much cost-effective and customizable option is to get a variety of dry fertilizers.

If you fertilize the water column you should be OK with inert sand, but you can also just add root tabs later if you feel you need them.

I'll stop here, I don't want to derail this thread any further. I'd look into the fertilizer and substrate forums if I were you, and maybe make your own thread if you have more questions.


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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

sorry to ask a question. in a question but it has kind of the same concept 

Can Amazonia be capped on dirt? like dirt then add Amazonia ontop of it?


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## Netcode (May 4, 2016)

BettaBettas said:


> sorry to ask a question. in a question but it has kind of the same concept
> 
> Can Amazonia be capped on dirt? like dirt then add Amazonia ontop of it?


Sure, why not?

Although Amazonia is typically used on it's own. But I guess if you wanted to save money, sure.


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## Wendy1B (Jan 8, 2017)

Hopping on this thread as I am currently weighing my substrate options for a new set up I am planning. Do I understand it correctly that ADA Aquasoil (Amazonia) has a much higher CEC than Eco Complete?


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## marks_01 (Jan 4, 2017)

Just throwing this out there: I used 1" of ADA Aquasoil, then capped it with 1" to 4" (sloped) of eco complete. I just started 1 month ago, but if I could do anything over again, I would use more "soils" and less "cap" so that invertebrates (snails,worms,shrimp,whatever) could get into it easer. Also, I wish the top layer of the substrate was softer for fish like loaches, cories, and plecos. The soil is not messy at all if you're really careful with it. 

Another thought: I think the ADA aquasoil is actually cheaper than ecocomplete when you consider the size of each bag and the fact that eco-complete is sold wet. I couldn't find any decent organic potting soils in stores near me - probably since it's currently out-of-season.


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