# help plz



## SpeedEuphoria (Aug 5, 2008)

If you want to use the light you have, you need to have it hang above the tank, like 3-6" above it to reduce intensity. I personally like having mine hung as I can move it out of the way easy(hang it higher).

Co2 is not really bad at all, the startup cost is the only thing, other that that its cheap.

If you dont have any ferts, then wait awhile to get plants, till the tank has been going for like 3months.

So setup the filter/heater, then do a fishless cycle. Complete that and add fish, then add plants.

Leave the light off during the fishless cycle.


----------



## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

it looks like the highest i could get it is about 5" above top of the tank. it's mounted inside a canopy. so if i go with a simple do it yourself co2 and only run 1 of the two lights am i going to have a problem w/algae? 

oh, by the way, i am going to get ferts(fertalizers?), i just don't know what to get yet, lol.


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

It's very hard to get consistent levels of CO2 in a 29g tank. You'll need at least two 2L bottles. And a staggered swap every week or every other week.


----------



## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

i'm very new at this so please forgive me here, if i'm not running very much light, that should equate to needing less co2, right?


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

oldpunk78 said:


> i'm very new at this so please forgive me here, if i'm not running very much light, that should equate to needing less co2, right?


No. CO2 is usually the limiting factor in growth with many tanks, so it's best to use the optimal amount of CO2, even in a low light tank.


----------



## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

ok, so what would an optimum set up be for a low tech 29g planted aquarium?


----------



## W-Oz (Oct 10, 2008)

Grow without CO2 and only use half of your lights. Put some medium/low light plants in your tank, like right now right now, and let them establish themselves.

The only things you need to establish a low tech planted tank are a good substrate, lights, heater, and something to move the water around. Since you have all of these just start going to town. 

For more info, visit Chuck's Planted Aquarium Pages. You don't specifically need the CO2, it can help sure, but you don't _need_ it.


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lighting/75776-simple-light-test-show-high-light.html

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lighting/75873-tank-could-get-away-less-light.html

Give these threads and links contained within a good read through. Yes, they're heavy with the science, but they'll help you greatly in putting together a successful setup for yourself.

And IMO, CO2 is a vital nutrient and would be in the top three list of equipment I'd purchase for my tank.


----------



## SpeedEuphoria (Aug 5, 2008)

W-Oz said:


> Put some medium/low light plants in your tank, like right now right now, and let them establish themselves.


I highly disagree with this, there will be no ferts/fuel for the plants.


----------



## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

SpeedEuphoria said:


> I highly disagree with this, there will be no ferts/fuel for the plants.



hey man, you can't just spit that out there w/o offering a solution, lol.

edit - this is where i'm at so far, just turn on the light so the cloud could be seen, just filled it like an hour ago... you can almost see my wood.









anyway, i will be off the the lfs here pretty soon for what ever it is that i need to start with(ferts/fuel/bio-spira)


----------



## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

bump! i'm getting impatient here lolz


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

What do you want us to tell you?

Buy plants.
Buy NPK ferts.
Buy CO2 system.

That's what your lighting will require you to do. If you want to risk it:

Buy plants.
Buy Excel.
Hope.


----------



## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

no, forget the lighting.... i mean i know i need to start getting co2 and nutrients involved.

what ferts do you guys recommend? so far it looks like i see excel and flurish used, i'm still looking into a co2 system. right now i'm just going to use the soda bottle method until i can save up for a good set up. i figure by the time it has cycled i can be in business.


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

www.aquariumfertilizer.com

Get the NPK + micro pack. Save some money.

And then dose Seachem Excel to keep the algae at bay in the mean time. The micro will replace Flourish.


----------



## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

thanks man, you guys rock! 

how do i know the tank is ready for adding plants??


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

It's always ready.


----------



## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

what? really? no wait... that's cool. 

oh ya... thx for the speedy replies!


----------



## SpeedEuphoria (Aug 5, 2008)

oldpunk78 said:


> hey man, you can't just spit that out there w/o offering a solution, lol.


This is my proposed solution:


SpeedEuphoria said:


> If you dont have any ferts, then wait awhile to get plants, till the tank has been going for like 3months.
> 
> So setup the filter/heater, then do a fishless cycle. Complete that and add fish, then add plants.
> 
> Leave the light off during the fishless cycle.


As I see it you have 2 options:

A: If you have CO2 and ferts, then you crank up the CO2 add ferts and pack it with plants and use the light. After you get a hang of it for like a couple weeks. Then back the CO2 down to a fish safe level, normally 30ppm max. Then add fish slowly. Its a silent cycle.

B: Or if you dont have ferts or CO2, then do a fishless cycle with the lights off. Stock the tank and wait a month or 2, then stock the plants. This is what I said before.


----------



## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

so........ what would packed with plants add up to?what would a nice package be for a beginner? ha ha, i have only had to deal with live rock and corals in the past.

edit - i know this is off topic (sorry) but do you have a dyno sheet on that dodge spirit? 500whp? wheeeoooo


----------



## W-Oz (Oct 10, 2008)

I'm still not convinced you _need_ ferts. Honestly. Are you saying that Chuck is wrong?

Seriously, consider the tanks that are immersion started. So far as I know, they don't dose anything except good old fashioned water to keep 'em wet.

Anyway, do what you like. Personally, I feel that if you're going to go to the trouble to get fertz and setting up CO2, why bother with a low tech tank? You're already at Hi-Tech with the lights and it's just a few more gizmos to get you the rest of the way there.

Plants to consider to start would be like Hornwort, Anubias, Elodea, Anacharis, Java Moss and Fern, and some of the smaller Swords (avoid the Amazon, they get big). From there you might consider various grasses, Vals, Crypts, and other such snazzy critters.


----------



## SpeedEuphoria (Aug 5, 2008)

W-Oz said:


> I'm still not convinced you _need_ ferts. Honestly. Are you saying that Chuck is wrong?
> 
> Seriously, consider the tanks that are immersion started. So far as I know, they don't dose anything except good old fashioned water to keep 'em wet.


Who is chuck? Chuck Norris?lol

Yes you add ferts to emersed setups *unless* you have a nutrient rich substrate
http://www.barrreport.com/estimativ...-without-any-algae-any-issues-dosing-etc.html



> you can mist the plants if you use flourite black etc with a NPK and trace solution 2x a week otherwise




You cannot grow plants w/o nutrients, its not possible. That's like driving an internal combustion engine automobile w/o fuel, not happening


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

There's nutrients in the EcoComplete, and if you do a fishless cycle on the tank there will also be more than enough macros for the plants. My advice would be to plant asap, run you lights minimally (perhaps 4 hours) till you get and figure out your carbon source (CO2, Excel, whatever), and go from there.

When you plant, drain your tank till the water is just over the top of the substrate, do your planting, drain most of the rest of the water, and then refill VERY slowly; perhaps put a bowl into the tank to pour the new water into, or refill with a cup (I like gallon-sized plastic measuring cups, personally) and this should help quite a bit with your cloudiness.


----------



## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

thanks for the info guys. this forum is quickly becoming indispensable .


----------



## W-Oz (Oct 10, 2008)

SpeedEuphoria said:


> Who is chuck? Chuck Norris?lol
> 
> You cannot grow plants w/o nutrients, its not possible. That's like driving an internal combustion engine automobile w/o fuel, not happening



Did you even read the info from the link I posted? No? 

Did you even read the substrate being used in the tank?

Seriously. 

Scroll up and read before you bash me.

There's more than one way to start a tank. Dosing ferts, rigging up CO2, and running hot (lots not literally hot) lights is one way to start a tank. It's also counter to the low-tech approach. I've started my tank and my GF's tank using a modified version of Chuck's planted tank start up method (read no CO2). Neither tank gets ferts or CO2. 

Oz out.


----------



## SpeedEuphoria (Aug 5, 2008)

He says use substrate ferts, doesnt say if he's using AS or not for a substrate either. He doesnt say if he has nitrate in his water either.

The OP's substrate is ECO, which doesnt have NPK

Hence in the quote, or if you red the link, it says that if you grow emersed and use ADA AS you dont need ferts, but everything else needs NPK.


----------



## JRB77 (Apr 7, 2008)

Just so I can chip in my .02...
Check out this site:
http://www.rexgrigg.com/index.html


----------



## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

hey, i've got another question...

ok, so, i now have one 6700K 65w pc bulb/ crappy reflector about 6 or 7 inches above the water line. does that = low tech lighting for a 29g? i'm hoping it is, i know that still puts me above 2 wpg, but i'm hoping that it will drop the light down enough to help.

i have also put together a list of plants that i will put on order in the next couple of days. here it is:

wendtii bronze
crypt lutea
cofeefolia, anubias
nana, anubias
ozelot sword
HC

will the hc work? hummmm

also, could some let me know what quantities to order to fill up the tank. i'm having a hard time guessing at that.

if the hc won't work because of the lack of light, it would be nice if someone could post a solution to ground cover.

oh ya, i forgot... i am having no luck at all figuring out what some good choices would be for back ground plants(except for the ozelot sword). any comments would be really appreciated.

thanks all!


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Hygros, Rotala, Bacopa, Crypt. balanse or retropiralis would all work as background plants in a 29gal.

I think you'll be OK with your lighting.

I doubt the HC will do much, though, unless you lower the lights closer to the tank and get the CO2 going.

You could try Marsilea minuta instead for a groundcover.


----------



## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Sorry to hijack this thread. There is really no right or wrong answer when it comes to setting up a low tech tank. There are some fundamentals, but otherwise peoples' differing setups have proven equally successful. There is more than one way to setting up a low tech tank with the types of plants you identified. Based on what I know now, I would recommend that you stick to a low tech approach and forget about DIY c02 or even pressurized c02. Go with Excel for your carbon source and choose one of these two methods. Personally, I would go with Tom Barr's method but Vicky's should work well also.

Tom Barr's method:
http://www.barrreport.com/articles/433-non-co2-methods.html

Vicki's method:
http://vickisaquaticplace.com/PlantsChapter1.html

enough said!


----------



## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

marsilea quadrifolia (dwarf four leaf clover?)

^ that was the closest i could find. same thing?

thanks homer, i have already been directed to both of those articles a couple of times now. my thought was that i'm going to try no co2 at all, dose excel/flourish and hope for the best. if that doesn't work out, i'm turning on all 130 watts and getting a pressurized co2 system and go from there. i really want to try and make it work with what i already have and not spend 300 bucks on a proper pressurized set up. 

lol, i guess i could just get a nice(less than 2wpg) t5 light and call it a day.

just in case i do go that route, what are some recommendations on 30" t5's?


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

This is the one I have on my 29gal: http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsU...5/cl0/coralifefwt5aqualightdoublestriplight30

No, Marselia quadrifolia and M. minuta are 2 different species, and I don't believe that M. quadrifolia does quite as well in low light.

E. tenellus 'narrow' is another option, and one of my personal favorites for carpeting low-light tanks. Makes a nice grass. I have it going in my 90gal ATM.


----------



## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

M. minuta is really hard to find. i looked for a while and can't find any for sale. aquariumplants.com says that marsilea quadrifolia does well in low light, they even have it in there low light plant section. is that their mistake? hahaha, this is really difficult... but fun lol


----------



## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

thanks lauralee, info is always gladly accepted!

ok, so now it seems like i'm going to be on the hunt for different lighting... i would never of got the coralife 2x65 if i knew what i know now. that whole shoot first and ask questions later thing always gets me, lol. so the coralife 2x18 t5 seems like a good value but i've been looking around and found this guy :

30 inch Current USA Nova Extreme 2x24 watt T5 HO 10K/Freshwater

any opinions? ^ this guy looks to be superior.


----------



## SpeedEuphoria (Aug 5, 2008)

The thing with 30" fixtures is that PC or T5HO use ~24" bulbs so you dont have full coverage on the sides. The Coralife T5NO bulbs are 30" so they cover, but the reflector sucks comparatively.

Its up to you, but either will be fine IMO


----------



## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

^ can you get better reflectors for the coralife?


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If you go with the T5HO fixture you won't be at low light any more, and will definitely need CO2.

If you don't want to use CO2 then you actually don't want too much lighting over the tank, and IMO those Coralife T5NO fixtures are perfect for that purpose.


----------



## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

oh, i did the math and figured that since it would still be below 2wpg that it be alright... i guess i forgot to figure in the fact that the t5ho bulbs give off more light... i think it was something like 1.6wpg @ 2x24w... so the 2x18 t5no w/ no-so-good reflectors is the best bet for a low tech 29g?


----------



## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

i figured that i better post a pic of where i'm at. thanks guys!


----------



## BradH (May 15, 2008)

oldpunk78 said:


> oh, i did the math and figured that since it would still be below 2wpg that it be alright... i guess i forgot to figure in the fact that the t5ho bulbs give off more light... i think it was something like 1.6wpg @ 2x24w... so the 2x18 t5no w/ no-so-good reflectors is the best bet for a low tech 29g?


This isn't the best pic, but here is my 29 gallon with 2x18 t5no. 










Thought I would add what all I have, so you can see what will grow with that little amount of lighting.

Flora 
Stem Plants - Lemon Bacopa (Bacopa caroliniana), Moneywort (Bacopa monnieri), Rotala (Rotala rotundifolia), Red Ludwigia (Ludwigia repens), Willow Leaf Hygro (Hygrophila salicifolia), Dwarf Hygrophila (Hygrophila polysperma), Wisteria (Hygrophila difformis), Brazilian Pennywort (Hydrocotyle leucocephala), Cabomba (Cabomba Caroliniana), Japanese Cress (Cardamine lyrata), 

Ferns, Anubias, and Mosses - Java Fern (Microsorum pteropus), Anubias Barteri (nana), Java Moss (Taxiphyllum barbieri)

Rosette Plants - Dwarf Hairgrass (Elocharis acicularis), Crytptocorynes' (Cryptocoryne parva) & (Cryptocoryne wendtii), Jungle Val (Vallisneria americana gigantea), Dwarf 4 Leaf Clover (Marsilea minuta)

Floaters & Others – Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum), Red Root Floater (Phyllanthus fluitans), Guppy Grass (Najas guadalupensis), Marimo Ball (Cladophora aegagropila)

I just added the frogbit and red root floater, so there are not in the picture. They have been in the tank about 2 weeks and are doing nice. 

The only thing I'm having trouble with is my rotala (which I think is a nutrient issue because I quit dosing for a while), my dwarf hairgrass (substrate is too thick for it to spread, it's not dying or anything), and my cabomba (not looking too good at the moment). Everything else grows fine.


----------



## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

thanks for the info^


----------

