# Kind of new to this...



## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

So I have a 20 gallon tank that i've slowly been switching over to planted from fake plants, but it was in an established tank and because of my low lighting, i've only got hardy, low light plants that require minimal attention. 

HOWEVER 

I just started a 5.5 gallon planted tank from scratch. I just put the plants in there yesterday, and before i put my Betta in I want to let them settle for a few days / a week I'm wondering if I should do anything other than let them be? 

I dosed the tank with Flourish, should I add anything else? Flourish excel? fertilizer tablets? Should I add flourish every day to start off? 

It's 5.5 gallon All Glass (brand) Aquarium 
AGA Glass canopy top
AGA 16", 14 watt flourescent bulb
~2 inches small gravel (natural color, LFS owner said it's pretty good fro planted tanks)
Plants:
2 Cryptocoryne wendtii (theoretically 1 red, 1 green)
1 Anubias nana 
1 Arrowhead? pink leaves shaped like hearts/arrowheads (i'll find the scientific name when i go home) 
1 bunch (~6 stems when separated) Wisteria
1 bunch (~5 stems when separated) Red Myrio (i think)
2 small anachris stems transplanted from my 20 gallon
1 small cryptocoryne (i think) transplanted from my 20 gallon

I decided to try some med light plants in this one because the light is brighter than my 20 gallon.

Any suggestions are more than welcome! 

I'll post pictures later too. 

Thanks!


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

IMHO, the gravel may not be enough to give good long term plant growth (with the exception of anubias) with the types of plants that you have . They may do well over the short term but once they take root, they could suffer. Personally, I would have gone with a speciality substrate like eco-complete, fluorite or even something as cheap as Soil Master Select or Schultz Aquatic soil(75% capped with 25% pea gravel). If you were to take some mulm from your established tank or an inch of established gravel from that 20 gallon and capped it with about 2 inches of 1mm grain size pool filter sand that would have worked well.

As far as fertilization, you only need to use a pinch of potassium, nitrates, phosphates, 1/2 teaspoon fluorish excel for the trace element mix, and Seachem Equilibrium, preferably with every water change. Far more important is providing a carbon source in the form of Seachem Excel daily. Since your 5.5 gallon is a low light tank, don't be surprised if plant growth is slow, that is to be expected, but the trade off is that you should see no algae at all and will not have to prune and worry about weekly water changes to get rid of excess nutrients.

I set up a 5 gallon(see Tom Barr type set) http://azdhan.googlepages.com/thelostworld2 and it continues to do excellent. The plants continue to do well, the Amano Shrimp I put in have doubled in size and almost look good enough to eat, and the dwarf aquatic frogs and otocat continue to do well.

I followed Tom Barr's recommended set up as described here and strongly recommend the method to anyone starting off a low light tank.
http://www.barrreport.com/articles/433-non-co2-methods.html

This type of setup also would work well.
http://www.vickisaquaticplace.com/PlantsChapter1.html

Hopefully that helps


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I know what you're talking about with the arrowhead- I just saw one yesterday at PetsMart- they're not aquatic plants. Take it out and plant it outside or make it a houseplant; won't live too long in an aquarium. It's too bad b/c they are a lovely shade of pink!


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Homer- Thanks for the advice, I'll look at those postings for more ideas as well. I could only get a minimum of 20lbs of any kind of specialty substrate for planted tanks, but i'll look into adding something to what i have. Would you recommend Seachem excel over flourish excel for a carbon source? Thanks!

lauraleellbp- hahaha, why am I not surprised? I did buy it at PetSmart, i was skeptical! I guess I'll save it for the vivarium I'm constructing nad plant it there! Do you know if it would work as a semi-aquatic? or should I plant it in the dirt portion? Thanks!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I do think it would work emersed- and would look beautiful in a vivarium! I have no idea how big it will get though? I'm trying to remember what they are called... shuffelaria shuffelara something like that I *think*?


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Karackle said:


> Homer- Thanks for the advice, I'll look at those postings for more ideas as well. I could only get a minimum of 20lbs of any kind of specialty substrate for planted tanks, but i'll look into adding something to what i have. Would you recommend Seachem excel over flourish excel for a carbon source? Thanks!...


You're welcome  The Seachem Excel is a different product than Seachem Fluorish Comprehensive. The Seachem Excel strictly provides a carbon source. Some people have found that some types of plants(vals, riccia) are sensitive to it and melt. None of the ones you listed with the exception of anachris are sensitive to it, so you will have to decide. Personally, I would get rid of the anachris to use Seachem Excel as the benefits of this carbon source will really help your other plants. You could try slowly working your dose up to the maximum and you may not have problems with the anachris. Someone said that it worked for them but I am not sure if it would work as I have never tried it. Keep in mind that the Seachem Excel is not mandatory. Your plants may do better with it, but they will not die without it. 

I dose about 50cc of Seachem Excel with a diabetic injection syringe daily with my 5 gallon low light tank and 100cc with every water change. My shrimp, dwarf aquatic frogs, and otocat seem unharmed by this dose. I have 15 watt GE 6500k daylight compact fluorescent screwed into the tank canopy for light that I run for 8 hours.

The Seachem Fluorish Comprehensive is a Trace element mix. You need very little of this. I would say, use no more than 1/2 teaspoon per week or better yet 1/2 teaspoon with every water change. If you are not going to do water changes frequently, I say cut it down to 1/8 teaspoon weekly. You don't want to overdo it with this as high light and c02 injection drives the plant's needs for nutrients. With your low light plants, if you don't plan to inject the tank with c02 or blast it with high light(which I would not recommend or you could end up with algae overnight - been there done that), you should be fine using that amount of Seachem Fluorish Comprehensive. The potassium, phosphates and nitrates are also needed as they are not found in significant amounts(i.e,. phospate) in the Seachem Fluorish Comprehensive. Seachem Equilibrium contains magnesium and calcium that your plants need and that are removed with every water change. Again, only use a "pinch/dash"(like when you put a pinch of salt when you cook something) of these. Don't overdo it with the ferts, err on the side of too little rather than too much. If you are not doing weekly water changes every week, and your plants don't end up taking up a lot of the ferts that you put in the tank because of low light and no c02, it would be easy to end up with an accumulated excess which could harm any fish or shrimp that you have in the tank over the long run.

FWIW, I am using a Aquaclear HOB 150 filter on the 5 gallon with a Seachem Purigen insert which makes quite a difference in water clarity. The water is crystal clear all the time, so you may want to consider this if water clarity is important to you.

I don't use Seachem Fluorish Comprehensive but use Yamato Green for testing purposes, but Seachem Fluorish Comprehensive should also work fine for trace minerals.


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## moogoo (Dec 7, 2007)

Karackle,

Flourish Excel and Seachem Excel are the same thing. Seachem is the company that makes the Flourish line, which includes Comprehensive (or just Flourish, which I believe you have), Excel (carbon source), Iron, phosphates, etc. 

As homer said, your substrate is not the best and you should look into modifying it to make it better. Other than that, with your low-light and plants, it will be slow growth but growth without algae! Given the size of the tank, I would only dose excel maybe once or twice a week and flourish once a week. With the low light, the plants will not be using nutrients and carbon as quickly so dumping in ferts everyday would just be a waste. Other ferts will do your plants good, but probably isn't truly needed. With water changes and eventually some fish poo for nitrates, you should get all that you need.


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks for all of the advice! That's really useful!  I may just move the Anachris back to my 20 gallon if it isn't fairing too well or i can't find a place it looks good. It's growing so fast in my 20 gallon, even with the extremely low light conditions, i thought i'd throw some in, but i may not need it. 

One question on Nitrates, will the poo from just one Betta be enough or should i be prepared to add a little extra? 

Thanks again!

Kara


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Unless you are using one of the established fert regimes (all the links above plus check out the fert forum stickies) you'll have to try and see. Depends alot on what and how many plants you have. 

IMO I'd keep more than just a betta in a 5.5gal just because I like fish- I'd put some MTS and a few dwarf cory cats in with a betta, and do weekly water changes... but that's just my personal preference!


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

yeah, I agree, the "more than just a betta" thing is more for me than him  I'll have to look into dwarf cory cats, and I'm sorry but what are MTS? 

As for nitrates, i have my test kit so i'll keep an eye on the levels and how healthy the plants look! 

Also, any suggestions on how long to wait before adding the fish? By going heavily planted I'm hoping for a "silent cycle"....but how long should i give the plants to settle in before putting the swimmers?

Thanks!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Malaysian Trumpet Snails. You might have a population explosion if you aren't careful about overfeeding (and even if you are) but they're great for algae in a tank that small and also keep the substrate nice and turned over.

As far as cycling goes- put in your betta as soon as you set up your tank, and then monitor your ammonia and nitrIte. In a tank your size, if they are going to spike, they should with just the betta in there. Once they've gone down to 0ppm and stayed put for at least several days you can try the cories.

It can be difficult to tell in a tank your size whether or not the tank has cycled- especially when you're hoping for a silent cycle. Just keep an eye on the water parameters every time you change something (add fish, do a major rearrange, clean the filter, that sort of thing).


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Karackle said:


> Thanks for all of the advice! That's really useful!  I may just move the Anachris back to my 20 gallon if it isn't fairing too well or i can't find a place it looks good. It's growing so fast in my 20 gallon, even with the extremely low light conditions, i thought i'd throw some in, but i may not need it.
> 
> One question on Nitrates, will the poo from just one Betta be enough or should i be prepared to add a little extra?
> 
> ...


With the Anachris, I would leave it in floating in the 5.5 gallon tank until your tank is fully cycled, then remove it once the tank is cycled, and you can start dosing Seachem Excel or if you decide not to, leave the anachris in or take your changes leaving it in while dosing Seachem Excel.

Personally, I don't believe that the nitrates from the Betta fish poo will be enough unless you over feed the Betta(which I would never recommend) and it poos like crazy. If you overfeed, you will end up with a short lived, fat, lazy, and sick betta. After keeping fish for over 9 years, I found that one of the secrets of having fish survive longer was purposely underfeeding rather than over feeding them. Also overfeeding can spike ammonia levels, which are not good for the fish. Like I said I dose a "pinch" of nitrates(like a pinch of salt) every week in my tanks. I have no issues with the dwarf frog, otocat, and amano shrimp. Remember that these critters are the most sensitive to excess nutrients and quickly effected. As lauraleellbp stated doing water changes weekly is a good idea. Many people will tell you that weekly water changes for a low tech, low light, planted tank are not necessary and even detrimental. I disagree with this based on the fact that I have been doing weekly water changes on my low tech tank weekly to ensure optimal water quality for my otocat, shrimps, and dwarf aquatic frogs. Even in low tech tanks, you will still get dieing and decaying leaves whose effects must be removed with water changes, or you could still end up with water quality problems. Some say that doing weekly water changes is not a good idea on a low tech tank as the water changes add c02 which can cause c02 instability and lead to algae issues. C02 instability is only a major concern if you are dealing with a high light tank with c02 injection. As long as you don't have high light levels, it is not likely that you will get any algae, regardless of c02 levels as high light without adequate c02 IME is what fuels aglae. I do weekly water changes, and have zero algae. I would suggest at least 15-30% weekly water changes. I know some people claim not to do water changes for months and say that they have healthy fish and plants. I experimented going one month of not doing water changes after doing them weekly. My Betta ended up with really bad fin and tail rot and died despite my best efforts to save him. Fin and Tail Rot is primarily caused by poor water quality. That was a lesson well learned. I don't plan on going more than 2 weeks without water changes even on my low tech tank.



Karackle said:


> yeah, I agree, the "more than just a betta" thing is more for me than him  I'll have to look into dwarf cory cats, and I'm sorry but what are MTS?
> 
> As for nitrates, i have my test kit so i'll keep an eye on the levels and how healthy the plants look!
> 
> ...


The problem with keeping Bettas with other fish is that Bettas like most fish seem to have their own personalities. That means it may or may not peacefully co-exist with the cories or it may harass them to no end. As far as Malaysian Trumphet snails or any type of snails, you could end up with a population explosion and as the snails keep growing in numbers, they will keep adding to your bioload and in the long run you could run into serious water quality issues, especally in a tank as small as a 5.5 gallon. In one 10 gallon tank that I had, this is exactly what happened, to the point where they were huge numbers in my filter every week when I cleaned it. The snail population was out of control. It was not due to overfeeding as I had only one otocat in the tank and I fed him every other day. Also baiting and removing the extra snails with zuccchini did not work and thinning out the snail population enough. I finally tore the tank down and set up another tank. Of course, your betta may feed off the snails. Some say that their bettas like to feed off the snails.

As far as cycling and when to add fish. Just to give you an idea. I set up my 5 gallon tank on Nov 7 2007 and heavily planted it. I tested ammonia and nitrite levels every other day and it was not until Nov 21 2007 that ammonia and nitrite levels tested zero and that is with adding a white cloud minnow to the tank on Nov 14 2007 to speed up cycling. So, be prepared to wait at least 14 days to play it safe, although you could probably greatly shorten this time by adding anachris as floating floating plants. You can either purchase ammonia and nitrite kits to monitor or take a sample of your water into your local fish store every 3-5 days if they test ammonia and nitrites for free. I would not gamble here. Exposing a precious fish to ammonia spikes can leave a fish with long term gill damage even if it survives the cycle.


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thank you again for all of the really helpful information!!!


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Karackle said:


> Thank you again for all of the really helpful information!!!


You're welcome. It is all about learning and having fun, so don't worry about getting your feet wet. There are lots of knowledgeable members on this forum that have set successfully set up low tanks and there is probably more than one way to set up such a tank. I just posted what worked for me, but that does not mean that it is the right way or the only way. 

Good luck


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Sorry to be asking SO MANY questions, but, well I want to do this right, and iI've been getting such useful advice that i figure this is a good place to ask them 

So I have 2 questions at the moment:

The first is I'm worried about water flow in the tank, as suggested I'm not using a filter relying on the plants to do most of the filtration for me, I have a small bubble wall in there at the moment but doing some reading on here I've seen that those can cause a decrease in CO2, and i'm also worried when I put him in my Betta won't like it, BUT I don't want to leave the water stagnant either, mostly because I worry the tank won't heat evenly then. I'm thinking of getting a valve so there's a very slow flow of bubbles, or getting one of the little filters just to provide some water flow, but I'm open to suggestion.

The second thing is I'm seeing what can only be described as looking like dust on my plants. Any ideas what it could be? algae? fungus? detritus? It's not ATTACHED to the plants, if i move the water it stirs up. I was thinking of using some extra airline tubing to siphon off as much as I can. Again, I'm open to thoughts and suggestions.

Here's what it looks like:


















As always, thanks in advance!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

That looks like a fungus to me, but I think Homer has more plant experience so don't take my word as final by any means.

What are your water parameters running?

As far as water circulation- do whatever you're most comfortable with and works best in your tank. I personally prefer a moderate consistent water flow- but then I also do not go the 100% "el natural" way and always have filtration on my tanks. 

If you want a filter or just water circulation on your tank, you do have lots of options- in addition to the airstones you already mentioned, there are sponge filters, small corner filters, in-tank filters, hang-on-back filters, canister filters... I wouldn't worry about the water movement vs. CO2- those concerns are primarily for people who are using CO2 injection on their tanks.

As long as the current isn't so strong your betta has trouble swimming, you're OK. I suspect a betta will either totally ignore a bubble wall, or perhaps even play in it.


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

It does look sort of fungussy in the picture, but it's definitely not attached to the plant at all which i'd imagine a fungus to be? I could be totally wrong though. I'll try to siphon off that i can and hopefully it'll go away. We'll see what happens! 

If anyone has other ideas or suggestions though, please let me know. Thanks!


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Karackle said:


> It does look sort of fungussy in the picture, but it's definitely not attached to the plant at all which i'd imagine a fungus to be? I could be totally wrong though. I'll try to siphon off that i can and hopefully it'll go away. We'll see what happens!
> 
> If anyone has other ideas or suggestions though, please let me know. Thanks!


It could be Saprolegnia or water fungus
http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/articles_details.php?article_id=256&name=Newest Articles

Saprolegnia is really nasty. I had something like that form on my Hygrophilia Polysperma leaves when I set up my 5 gallon hex tank and I ignored it thinking nothing of it. It disappeard on its own, but the betta in that tank also ended up getting fin and tail rot. The two occurences may or may not be related. And even when I treated the Betta, to the day it died it got worse and the same type of white fungus seemed to overtake its body. Salt, Melafix, Primafix, etc, had no effect. 

To be safe I would not risk putting any fish in that tank until you can try and eradicate this stuff. You can try a couple of things. Get yourself some hydrogen peroxide 3% solution and a syringe. Fill the syringe with about 5.5 ml(the dose is 1ml/gallon), turn off all your filters and turn off lighting, shoot the hydrogen peroxide from the syringe onto the fungus on the leaves. You may have to repeat this over a couple of days. This may eradicate it. 

If not, get Fungus Cure made by Jungle Labs and treat the tank as per package recommendations. You may be able to get away with using both Hydrogen peroxide and Fungus Cure but don't dose them at the same time. You can first dose with the hydrogen peroxide a couple of times, then do a 50% water change, then dose with Fungus Cure as directed. After that, it should be safe to put your fish in.


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks I'll try that, I have hydrogen peroxide and fungus cure so i'll see what happens, thanks for the pointers!


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Well I just read the article about that fungus and pulled a plant out of the water that has this dust looking stuff on it and it doesn't turn into what's described as a "slimy mat" at all, and like i said, it's not attached to the plants, i'll keep an eye on it though and see what happens, and dose with h2o2 and fungus cure if it proliferates after siphoning. 

Thanks again!


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Karackle said:


> Thanks I'll try that, I have hydrogen peroxide and fungus cure so i'll see what happens, thanks for the pointers!


You're welcome. Also, just FYI doing 1/3 water changes every few days while the tank is cycling will not interfere with the cycling process especially if you have the tank is packed with plants including floating plants and this may not be a bad idea to flush out anything nasty circulating in the tank or at least greatly dilute it. The key is not to mess with the filter(i.e., don't rinse it out every few days or weekly, but leave it alone for at least a month if you can). You can use carbon in your filter for the first month or so also to get rid of any excess organic matter from dead or dieing plant matter.


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Again, thank you! I have been doing water changes, I actually don't have a filter though, could be slowing down the process, I was trying to use the plants as the filter, but I may pop over to the store and pick up one of the tiny HOB filters for small tanks, maybe it'll help, I'll probably do water changes for a couple of more days before making the decision. 

Thanks!


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Karackle said:


> ... I was trying to use the plants as the filter...
> Thanks!


Although I have never tried it so cannot confirm it, I have read that with enough circulation in the tank, via a powerheads, it is possible to have a tank without a regular filter. The circulation is apparently the key. 

I personally use a Aquaclear HOB 150 filter in my 5 gallon low tech tank and have had no issues. It seems to work well. Every two weeks when the flow is restricted and I check the polyfibre in the filter, I find that it is often covered with brown slimy waste and I usually remove the slimy polyfibre, leaving at least 50 % of the remainder polyfibre and replace with fresh polyfibre.


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Yeah, detritus and debris was the reason I was skeptical about not using a filter, if you have enough waste in your filter to slow down water flow every 2 weeks, I'm thinking I might want to get a filter!


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

*Update *

Well, the "fuzz" isn't totally gone, but it's definitely thinning, or at least it doesn't seem to be coming back as much/as quickly after siphoning it off. ALSO the stem plants are growing new roots both from the stems and from the bottom (well, at least one stalk of the cabomba that I accidentally diislodged while siphoning had new roots growing from the bottom ) AND it looks like there's some new green shoots coming from under the gravel near the small red Crypt and the large green Crypt! :-D I can't see if there's new growth near the bottom of the large red crypts because they're hidden behind the driftwood, but I'll take the rest of it as a good sign that i'm doing at least something right?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

:thumbsup: Good job and I'm really happy things seem to be going in a positive direction!


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks lauraleellbp! Me too, I just hope it stays that way! The advice I got here, especially from you and Homer was incredibly helpful and definitely contributed to things looking good, so thank you both again! 

I'll update again soon!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Thanks! :icon_redf That's very sweet of you! I think Homer handled most of the hard stuff though.

Some pics with that update would be really cool... :biggrin:


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Hahaha I'll definitely post some pics soon! I think I'll be putting my Betta in in just a couple of days so I was going to wait until then to post picture updates, but I can do it sooner of the final setup before Betta addition if you'd like!  
Edit: 
Well I just realized there are NO pictures of the whole tank up here so here's a couple of the "final" setup a few days ago

Without Flash:









With Flash: 









I put "final" in quotes because I'm always open to suggestions for things that might need/want to be changed!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'd love to see both- I *always* love looking at people's tanks!


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

hahaha....you beat me to it, I was putting in an edit as you were writing the response! So there's a couple pictures, please forgive the slight cloudiness, i'd rearranged plants and done a 50% water change a bit earlier.


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

**

I was looking at my tank last night and I can't believe how much root growth there's been in the day or two since i last looked closely! 

I think my Betta will be introduced to his new homw rather soon!!!  

I also added a teeny HOB filter to the tank for extra particulate filtration since there's not quite enough food built up in the tank to sustain a cleanup crew yet


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I think that is coming along very nicely- good work!


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

It's looking good and will only get better with time. Good work Karackle


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thank you both! I'm really happy with how it's turning out! I'll definitely post updates with pictures soon


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

LOL I just realized this was you and the same 5.5 on both threads!

LOL:iamwithst


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

hahahaha....no problem....when I first read that I couldn't figure out what other thread you were talking about  :iamwithst too


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Glad it wasn't just me!


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

*Pictures*

it's picture update time again! I can't believe how fast everything is growong! There's new leaves on EVERYTHING except the 1 smal red crypt on the front, but I don't think that little guy's grown a smidge in the time i've had it, but that's ok. It's alive anyway. So, i need to do a bit of pruning, but here's how it looks, and my happy Betta. Photobucket is acting up so some of the pics are big still, i'll try to get them smaller, I apologize for any invconvenience! 

Full Tank (no Flash)









Full Tank (with flash)









And my Betta resting on the Cabomba (He likes to just hang out resting on the plants )


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