# Night-time Aeration



## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

How important is it to turn on the bubbler at night in a tank with DIY CO2?

It seems whenever I do my Co2 and pH fly out of control. The DIY Co2 is so hard to predict, and I have lost a lot of fish when my pH goes from 6.6-7.2 every night. No matter how hard I try.

Is it really important? Because I could just turn the CO2 off at night, or get a weak solution and let it run through the night.


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## Veloth (Jun 25, 2008)

I run a 2 liter DIY CO2 and a 20 gal 24/7 with no nighttime aeration and have had no problems.


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## DarioDario (Nov 8, 2008)

I'm curious what type of fish have you lossed with a .6 pH change


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## jjp2 (May 24, 2008)

I run pressured CO2 on a solenoid timed to come on 1 1/2 hrs before my lights and turn off 1/2 before them and airate at night using a timer. My PH swing is from 6.8 - 7.4 and I have no issues with my fish.


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## Aquarist_Fist (Jul 22, 2008)

Yes, but the OP is asking about DIY. No turning off there. 

I use 2x 2l DIY for my 15g. No night-time aeration, but I disconnect one of the bottles at night.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

jjp2 said:


> I run pressured CO2 on a solenoid timed to come on 1 1/2 hrs before my lights and turn off 1/2 before them and airate at night using a timer. My PH swing is from 6.8 - 7.4 and I have no issues with my fish.


Whether or not you have had issues is irrelevent. The topic is about *my* fish.

When I turn on my aeration, or leave my Co2 on all night, I always lose at least one fish. Always.

Lemon tetras, cardinals, rummies and even cherry barbs.

It isn't so much the fact that it is a .6pH change, but the fact that it is happening every day for months. It slowly wears away on the fish's slime coat until disease sets in. 

I turn the CO2 off and I lose nothing. Every time. Believe me, I've tried everything.
I just need to know if my leaving the aeration on has any long-term negative effects on stuff like plants, or the biological filtration. My CO2 will probably go between 8-20ppm at best throughout the day and night.


The issue of whether or not I am directly hurting or not hurting my fish is done. 
If you want proof talk to my 5 lemon tetras, my 5 cardinals, my 4 rummies, my 4 otos, my 1 rasbora and my 2 cherry barbs...oh wait. They died. Fancy that. But every time they died it was during either night-time aeration or leaving the Co2 on all night. Every single time.

Of course, not all my fish have died. It seems like the ones that get used to the pH changes stay.

I lose about 30% of all stock I introduce. Regardless of what store I buy them from or how long I acclimate.


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## aquanut415 (Jan 21, 2006)

Characins said:


> How important is it to turn on the bubbler at night in a tank with DIY CO2?


very important if you need to do so in order to keep your critters alive.

even amano is now starting to list aeration figures on his tanks, suggesting he does it as well.

http://www.aquajournal.net/suikei_data/001/suikei0801.html


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## Sam_NYC (Dec 14, 2008)

I run a diy setup with two 2 litter bottles ,and I just run an air stone at night. I never turn them off, I just swap a bottle every other week or so.


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## plakat (Mar 2, 2008)

Characins said:


> I just need to know if my leaving the aeration on has any long-term negative effects on stuff like plants, or the biological filtration. My CO2 will probably go between 8-20ppm at best throughout the day and night.


Additional aeration should have no negative impact on your plants or aerobic bacteria in your biological filtration. The fluctuating co2 may cause algae problems.

If its causing so many problems maybe you should just stop using it all together.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Something unusual is happening with your tank. I can't see how having an air bubbler going at night would harm either plants or fish. Could it be the air pump is adding oil mist to the air? I haven't heard of that happening either.

I think I would just try it without the air bubbler.


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## jjp2 (May 24, 2008)

What mixture are you using for the DIY CO2? Could it have something to do with it?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Hoppy said:


> Something unusual is happening with your tank.


I agree, I think there's something else going on...

Any chance that some of the yeast mixture is getting into the tank?

Are any of your other parameters fluctuating?

The pH change just from CO2 levels in the water shouldn't be stripping your fish of their slime coat... you may have a bacterial infection or some other disease issue if it's not a water parameter issue.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

My parameters aren't moving at all, nothing except pH.

The yeast solution isn't getting into the tank, thats for sure.

I do have some kind of oil at the surface though. Not sure what it is. Maybe I should wash my hands more before putting them in a tank. But could oil really kill fish?

I'm using 1/2tsp yeast, 2 cups sugar, 6 cups water and 1/4cup baking soda.

My fish seem to die from many different things. Most of the time they are just floating upside down on the surface, even though they were fine the day before.
It seems a lot like swim bladder but I don't see how that could come about over night.

I have also had fish get a fungus infection, as well as open sores. Maybe specemia(sp?), or injuries because their slime coat was so thin.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

The slime coat is a protective barrier from the outside world. It's part of the fishes immune system. It deteriorates for many reasons, but one of those reasons is : Stress.

From scanning your journal...sheesh. 1) you have almost no 02 in the tank:

10-08-08-Post #94:




11-07-08-Post #116





My first guess is that your fish are completely stressed 24/7, because they do not have enough 02. That stress weakens them and they slowly die off.

How are you getting/keeping 02 in the tank? *There's no surface movement.* The bubbler at night probably just stresses them out all night since it seems random...and at best just helps the roller coaster of higher 02, no 02, higher 02, no 02.

And after reading through your journal--I'm not convinced that your tank is completely cycled. Maybe it is, but you don't seem to have enough understanding of what's going on--on many fronts, but for now--with how things work when you dump more fish into the tank. Acclimation is just the first step.

So, my first guess is: Between no 02, very low NH4 and N02--you're just killing your fish....one at a time.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Characins said:


> Whether or not you have had issues is irrelevent. The topic is about *my* fish.
> 
> .


 Very friendly:icon_roll




Characins said:


> I do have some kind of oil at the surface though. Not sure what it is. Maybe I should wash my hands more before putting them in a tank. But could oil really kill fish?
> 
> .


 The oil is from proteins, food.


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## macclellan (Dec 22, 2006)

I run an airstone every night. Plants breathe O2 too. My fish don't die. GL with your problems.


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

Characins said:


> I do have some kind of oil at the surface though. Not sure what it is. Maybe I should wash my hands more before putting them in a tank. But could oil really kill fish?


That layer can stop the gas exchange. 
A little surface movement is a good thing. Yes it will outgas some CO2, but it will ensure you get some O2 in there. 
Like it was said plants use O2 also, Especially when the lights are out.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I try to keep a small surface ripple going all of the time. I used to keep my filter output near the surface so that caused the ripple. Now I have a Koralia powerhead near the top, pointed slightly upward, and that causes the ripple.

I have often suspected that really successful aquarists do some things automatically, without much thinking, from experience, and those undiscussed things do a lot to make them successful. That's why visiting a successful tank keeper and studying what they do can be very helpful. I have always tried to have some surface water movement, but when I saw Tom Barr's 180 gallon tank, and noted what he considered to be good surface movement I was astonished. From then on I have kept much more ripple going. I'm sure there are many other little things I haven't picked up, either from my poor observational skills or just inattention. 

Joining a planted tank club is one of the most beneficial things any of us can do, for our education, as well as the social aspect and free plant cuttings.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Characins said:


> Whether or not you have had issues is irrelevent. The topic is about *my* fish.
> 
> When I turn on my aeration, or leave my Co2 on all night, I always lose at least one fish. Always.
> 
> ...


As the others have mentioned, you have other issues other than pH being too low. Very low O2 levels like you have is extremely bad.

I have an aquarium right now with lemon tetras, keyhole cichlids, cories, otos, etc and the pH is in the low 4's. It is 4.2 right now measured with a calibrated pH monitor. Too low of a pH is not your problem.

When the pH raises above ~ 7.0, the ammoniun (NH4+) changes to be very toxic ammonia (NH3). You stated that your pH is between 6.8 and 7.4. Try to keep it is a range below 7.0 and you won't have a big problem with ammonia.

You can add some non-iodized table salt to help with your nitrite problem. The nitrite reacts with the hemoglobin to form methemoglobin. This makes the fish's blood unable to carry oxygen. Nitrite poisoning is sometimes referred to "brown blood disease." The chloride in aquarium salt basically blocks the nitrite from reacting with the fish's hemoglobin. 

From: http://www.plantgeek.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8901&highlight=methemoglobin
Nitrite is more lethal at small doses than ammonia. The nitrite level should always be zero, or as close to zero as you can get it. Under certain conditions, even relatively low nitrite levels of 0.25 mg/l may be enough to weaken sensitive species. Anything above 0.1 mg/l should be viewed as unacceptable and a potential cause of stress, although some fish might tolerate very high levels.

Here's the symptoms of nitrite poisoning:
Fish gasp for breath at the water surface
Fish hang near water outlets
Fish is listless
Tan or brown gills
Rapid gill movement

You can add salt to your aquarium for short term use to help with nitrite poisoning. Nitrite poisoning is also known as 'brown blood disease' because the blood turns brown from a increase of methemoglobin. However, methemoglobin causes a more serious problem than changing the color of the blood. It renders the blood unable to carry oxygen, and the fish can literally suffocate even though there is ample oxygen present in the water. The salt blocks the uptake of nitrite by the fish's gills.

Fish that are exposed to even low levels of nitrite for long periods of time suffer damage to their immune system and are prone to secondary diseases, such as ich, fin rot, and bacterial infections. As methemoglobin levels increase damage occurs to the liver, gills and blood cells. If untreated, affected fish eventually die from lack of oxygen, and/or secondary diseases.

Treatment:
Large water change
Add chlorine salt (you can use table salt but not table salt that is iodozed)
Reduce feeding
Increase aeration

The addition of only one half teaspoon of salt will help to prevent methemoglobin from building up. Chlorine salt is preferable, however any aquarium salt is better than no salt at all. Aeration should be increased to provide ample oxygen saturation in the water. Feedings should be reduced and no new fish should be added until the tank until the ammonia and nitrite levels have fallen to zero.

Sense nitrite is lethal at much lower levels than ammonia. Therefore it is critical to continue daily testing and treatment until the nitrite falls to zero.

I've used AP's salt before for nitrite poisoning according to the directions on the box. It's not all sodium chloride. It is made from evaporated sea water, which contains the following: calcium chloride, magnesium chloride, magnesium sulfate, potassium chloride, and sodium chloride. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produ...ll&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&N=2004&Nty=1

Here's some more info:
http://www.fishtanksandponds.info/care-maintenance/health/nitrite_poisoning.htm

Here is a good overview of "environment diseases": http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/170406.htm


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

Naja002 said:


> The slime coat is a protective barrier from the outside world. It's part of the fishes immune system. It deteriorates for many reasons, but one of those reasons is : Stress.
> 
> From scanning your journal...sheesh. 1) you have almost no 02 in the tank:
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply!

That last pic was taken almost 2 months ago I think, so somethings have changed since then. It has been 3 months since my cycle was first completed. So I think that is fully cycled. I do a full test every now and then, and for the last 2 months I haven't had any nitrite or ammonia. I did add a tablespoon of salt the other day though. 


I'm going to try what you guys have said, a little surface movement.

I'll just point my spray bar at the surface and get it going, enough to break the slime barrier. See if that helps any.

Just so you know, I haven't lost any fish since I've started turning the CO2 off at night, but the fish are still showing some signs of stress after the lights go out.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Blown 346 said:


> Any bubbler doesnt add Oxygen, oxygen is added thru water movement. The more water movement you have in the tank, the more oxygen you will have. The bubblers are there just for looks and enjoyment.


That's not true. O2 dissolves into water on contact through osmosis since the O2 levels in air are generally higher than that in a tank. Bubbles are entirely "surface area" and therefore are a great way to encourage osmosis and raise O2 levels- which is exactly why CO2 bubbles are also effective in raising CO2 levels in a tank.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Interesting..
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Llambi_Water5.html


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## rhodesengr (Nov 23, 2008)

I have phased out my air bubbler entirely. I added a power head so I have lots of surface movement 24/7. I only run my CO2 when the lights are on. I watched the fish for both lights/CO2 on & off and they seem fine in both states. So I would say the bubbler is not required at night but I am guessing that this is only true if you have good surface movement.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

This aeration thing has really worked wonders!!!


I've pointed my spray bar at a 55 degree angle, and the bubbler turns on at night. I can still keep CO2 high enough to bring my pH down to 6.8, and I haven't lost a single fish!
I even got 10 harlies a couple days ago, and they are all still very actve and happy. No sign of stress at all.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Yes it is amazing what a consistent set time of daily
aeration can do. it is good for everything in the system.

I have this information in the dosing sticky, it is brief
but the information is there.

Read BOD:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/water-parameters/21944-_dosing-regimes_.html


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

lauraleellbp said:


> Fish can get CO2 poisoning independent of the amount of O2 in the water.


Mmm, not really, and if you do poison the fish with C02 it
is because you don't understand that when C02 increase's
in the water to the point that you start killing fish, all you
need to do is relax and raise your pipe or spray bar to break
the surface for ten minutes/ish which drives out C02.

Its a game of balance.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

I'm not quite sure I understand how exactly to test CO2, besides the charts.

Do I need to buy a seperate kh4 solution thing?


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

You can buy a drop checker, the cheapest version which is easy to find is the Red Sea unit, fill it with distilled water to which enough baking soda has been added to raise its KH to 4 degrees of KH, plus a couple of drops of pH reagent, and you have a CO2 indicator which works. It takes about 2 hours for it to reach equilibrium with the tank water, so it is a very slow acting indicator, but it will be green to yellow green when there is about 30 ppm of CO2 in the water at the location where the drop checker is mounted. This tells you you are at least close to the amount of CO2 in the water that is needed for high lighted tanks, at that location in the tank. If you also have very good water circulation throughout the tank you can be reasonably sure you have about enough in other areas of the tank. It is still best to slowly increase the bubble rate, watching to be sure the fish are not being affected, just a little bit each day, until you find the bubble rate that gives good pearling, but no distressed fish. There is no cheap method for determining how much CO2 is in the water with any better accuracy.


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## 2gwm (Nov 21, 2008)

I have had the same problem when I leave my DIY CO2 system going and no air going. Have lost a couple of cardinals, one angel, most of my shrimp (amano and flower) and several of my Rams. I have mostly Discus, Angels and Rams in a Planted 30 gallon tank with very high lum lighting.

Running 1/2 t of yeast in 2L bottle with 2C sugar in 6-7 C of water. Using a red sea 500 generator.

After I purchased a airpump and run that at night and disconnect the line from my CO2 to the generator, I have not had any problems losing fish.

Prior to that, I have gone to my tank at night after the tank has been dark for 3-4 hours with the CO2 running and have found my fish gasping at the top of the surface of the tank and my plecos up at the top as well. Had to do a quick water change both times and that stopped any further disasters.

Haven't had any problems since using an airpump at night and disconneting the inlet hose from the CO2.

Since my water is relatively hard, I do about a 30% water change weeking using 1/2 tap and 1/2 RO water which hopefully eventually will lessen the overall hardness. I do have a filtered water system at home that removes all chlorine and suspended particals but I still have to add tap in order to get the water to the proper temp of my aquarium.

I have plans of graduating to a 100 gal tank and will definitely be using a CO2 tank/regulator/PH monitor system to automate this set-up. I have been thinking about Aquarium Plants Electronic CO2 Regulator but a little hesitent since it is so new and there is no way to adjust the bubble count.

Interested in any feedback that can be given to me.


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## Characins (Feb 4, 2008)

2gwm said:


> I have had the same problem when I leave my DIY CO2 system going and no air going. Have lost a couple of cardinals, one angel, most of my shrimp (amano and flower) and several of my Rams. I have mostly Discus, Angels and Rams in a Planted 30 gallon tank with very high lum lighting.
> 
> Running 1/2 t of yeast in 2L bottle with 2C sugar in 6-7 C of water. Using a red sea 500 generator.
> 
> ...


You will get more responses if you start your own seperate thread on the topic.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

a drop checker is a good indicator for the amount of dissolved CO2. 
When CO2 dissolves in water, the water turns acidic. 
The drop checker can be convenient since it indicates the excess and
deficiency of CO2 using this characteristic. but it takes working
with it for awhile to get a feel for it.

Using the drop checker in conjunction with plant health
and inhabitant behavior is about the only way to get a feel
for what the C02 is doing.

Plants do not mind having to much C02, but the fish and mainly
the bacteria in the substrate and filter can be harmed by having
to much gas.

If you have a tendency to choke the fish with to much gas
you can also harm your bacteria which in turn is bad for your
system.

More discussion on this matter is most likely needed because
the bacteria also plays a very important role in the stability
of the eco-system.

Daily aeration is very important in that just as it is a necessary
need for the fish and plant life it is also just as important for the
bacteria and microorganisms.

The film on the water surface is the beginning stages of stagnation,
C02 does not diffuse nearly as well in stagnant water which in
turn makes it harder for the plants to absorb this in this situation.

So aerating the water daily also helps in C02 dissolution and plant
absorption or uptake. 

Not aerating the water can and will cause hypoxia which damages
the microorganisms in the filter media and substrate, it can and will
also cause BGA to form on plants and mainly the substrate.
around the front pane between glass and substrate which in turn
will cause the substrate to turn anaerobic which is unhealthy
for the entire system.


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