# Tsing's 125 Hybrid - IAPLC 2020 - Rank 840



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

February 10th Update

Swapped out the old Maxi-Jet for a Jecod/Jebao RW-8






Experimenting with a terracing? type look. Staurogyne Repens -> Bucephalanadra Raven -> Windelov Javafern


Couldn't get a good shot here, the Staurogyne repens is a light shade of green not white


To do list:
Try to get my ph to drop faster, currently it drops from 8 to 7 ph in 1hr 30 mins. Would like to get it down to 1hr. Hopefully I just have to do some adjustments with my needle valve and now have to build a new reactor.
Up my DTPA 11% or CSMB. Ludwigia Rubins is showing an iron deficiency.


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## sdwindansea (Oct 28, 2016)

Beautiful look tank and very cool setup. I just have to ask, how did the guppy sneak in with the shrimp ?


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

sdwindansea said:


> Beautiful look tank and very cool setup. I just have to ask, how did the guppy sneak in with the shrimp ?


When I went to go get Amano shrimps from petco the employee accidentally netted the guppy lol. It was a tiny fry at the time.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Added more S.Repens thanks to @Sean W.




Some of my Ludwigia and AR Mini are looking a bit rough due to my co2 running low for like a week. hopefully everything recovers soon. the area behind the driftwood fills kinda empty, dunno if i want to fill it with more stems or try a moss wall

retired my old 2" x 19" rex grigg reactor and upgraded to a 2" x 45" one. the new reactor is on a separate loop and exits near the main pump


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

What a beautiful and clean tank! I've enjoyed your pictures, thanks for posting.


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## Mike00726 (May 23, 2011)

It is one of the better layouts I have seen for such a big tank.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Beautiful presentation, and very nicely laid out.

I'm sure it will look even more spectacular as everything grows and fills in.

Nice work!

And looking forward to seeing how the flow meter works out for you.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

Denisons! I love it.


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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

Really love it


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## Sean W. (Oct 12, 2013)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> Added more S.Repens thanks to @Sean W.


 Glad they went to a good home!


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Really like the layout, that wood is sweet!


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Greggz said:


> Beautiful presentation, and very nicely laid out.
> 
> I'm sure it will look even more spectacular as everything grows and fills in.
> 
> ...


got it installed the other day



40 cc/min @20 psi working pressure and my ph hasnt dropped much after 3hrs, think i might need to get a different flowmeter with a higher range lol


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## OreoP (Aug 12, 2016)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> got it installed the other day
> 
> 
> 
> 40 cc/min @20 psi working pressure and my ph hasnt dropped much after 3hrs, think i might need to get a different flowmeter with a higher range lol


Couple of things you might want to check...may or may not be the problem:

1. Leak check the push to fit connections - I had a leak there when I first installed the flowmeter

2. On my 65gal tank, I am running at about 15cc/min and get a pH drop of 1.0 in about 75 mins. Are you happy with the efficiency of your CO2 reactor? From the video, IMO inefficient CO2 diffusion in the reactor. Do you have a valve to adjust back pressure?


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

OreoP said:


> Couple of things you might want to check...may or may not be the problem:
> 
> 1. Leak check the push to fit connections - I had a leak there when I first installed the flowmeter
> 
> 2. On my 65gal tank, I am running at about 15cc/min and get a pH drop of 1.0 in about 75 mins. Are you happy with the efficiency of your CO2 reactor? From the video, IMO inefficient CO2 diffusion in the reactor. Do you have a valve to adjust back pressure?


edit: that vid above is from before i installed the flowmeter

not sure if im happy with the reactor yet, literally finished it a couple of days ago. do you think the inefficiency is due to my pump? im starting to wonder if my jecod dct 6000 running on the 10% setting is still too strong for the reactor. i have a ball valve near the outlet of the reactor, guess i'll adjust it too

welp found the leak, it's the flow meter. near the threads betwee the o-ring and ss inlets

whats your KH and degassed pH?

video of the diffusion set at 25cc/min, didnt record one at 40 cc/min


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## OreoP (Aug 12, 2016)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> edit: that vid above is from before i installed the flowmeter
> 
> not sure if im happy with the reactor yet, literally finished it a couple of days ago. do you think the inefficiency is due to my pump? im starting to wonder if my jecod dct 6000 running on the 10% setting is still too strong for the reactor. i have a ball valve near the outlet of the reactor, guess i'll adjust it too
> 
> ...


kH is 8 and degassed pH is 7.5. 

Even at 25cc/min you are losing a substantial amount of CO2 in the sump. From my experience with Cerges reactors, I found higher flow with back pressure is more efficient. I use the DCT 6000 as my main return pump. The Cerges is fed independently by a Ri0 1100. At 10%, your flow rate (assuming no head loss) is 158gph. The Rio is rated at 382 gph.

Suggestion: Drop the CO2 to about 20cc/min, up the DCT 6000 to 30-40% and partially close the valve on the reactor's exit. Play around with the flow rates first till you see no micro bubbles in the sump. Only then increase the CO2 to reach your desired pH drop in a shorter time.

If it's any consolation, setting up the Cerges and fine tuning it was the most frustrating thing for me during my initial set up. But be patient... work with one variable at a time and you will find the sweet spot!!


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

OreoP said:


> kH is 8 and degassed pH is 7.5.
> 
> Even at 25cc/min you are losing a substantial amount of CO2 in the sump. From my experience with Cerges reactors, I found higher flow with back pressure is more efficient. I use the DCT 6000 as my main return pump. The Cerges is fed independently by a Ri0 1100. At 10%, your flow rate (assuming no head loss) is 158gph. The Rio is rated at 382 gph.
> 
> ...


i was looking around last nite and i think the dct 6000 at the 10% speed setting is actually kinda of misleading. i also assumed 10% = 158 gph, man was i wrong lol

Found this chart on monsterfishkeepers:









and this from reef2reef:


> DCT-6000 (42W) Maximum flow rate of up to 6,000 litres/hour - adjustable from 2,900 - 6,000 litres per hour in 10 steps.
> •DCT-8000 (65W) Maximum flow rate of up to 8,000 litres/hour - adjustable from 2,500 - 8,000 litres per hour in 10 steps.
> •DCT-12000 (85W) Maximum flow rate of up to 12,000 litres/hour - adjustable from 3,800 - 12,000 litres per hour in 10 steps.


2900 lph is about 766 gph. 

used the headloss calculator from reefcentral (chose the rio 2500, similar gph to the dct 6000 on speed 1) and got 508 gph after head loss.

tbh i didn't expect fine tuning the co2 tbh such a pita with a huge reactor lol

i've also considered just grabbing a measuring cup filling it with water and inverting it in the tank or sump to measure the co2 through displacement, i think tom barr did this for his bigger tanks. think he aimed for 100 ml / min in his 120 or 180


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> got it installed the other day
> 
> 40 cc/min @20 psi working pressure and my ph hasnt dropped much after 3hrs, think i might need to get a different flowmeter with a higher range lol


Something doesn't seem right there. Either leaks or gassing off in the sump.

For reference, in my 120 gallon my flow rate right now is at about 35 cc/min, and I drive my pH down about 1.2 points in an hour. I also use a pH controller or at that rate I would gas the fish. With no controller I couldn't have it higher than 25 cc/min. 

I have mine going into a 20" Cerges. No sump, all canisters. And I have a lot of surface agitation. My ten pound tank lasts three to four months.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Greggz said:


> Something doesn't seem right there. Either leaks or gassing off in the sump.
> 
> For reference, in my 120 gallon my flow rate right now is at about 35 cc/min, and I drive my pH down about 1.2 points in an hour. I also use a pH controller or at that rate I would gas the fish. With no controller I couldn't have it higher than 25 cc/min.
> 
> I have mine going into a 20" Cerges. No sump, all canisters. And I have a lot of surface agitation. My ten pound tank lasts three to four months.


yeah that's what's been bugging for the past few days. no leaks from the regulator, no leaks from the push to connect fittings, no leaks from the reactor itself. only things left is the off gassing of the sump or there's something wrong with my co2 tube (i doubt it though since its from GLA). maybe i just built a crappy 2" x 45" reactor lmao


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

Not a big deal, because I do the same thing, but choosing a return pump based solely on GPH is inaccurate. You have to take into account the maximum head height. I was watching something on elbows affecting flow and they had similar pumps GPH wise, but different max head heights, and they flow with elbows and return pipe sizing was quite different. Head height plays into the pressure the pump can put out, yada yada, something complicated. But it is something to keep in mind. 

Back to the CO2 talk. I'll be reading it and saving the information for later. I found out the company that does our fire extinguishers at work will refill CO2 tanks.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Took off the 2" x 45" reactor, ph didn't drop more than 0.5 even with the back pressure from the ball valve at the outlet. Using the mazzei venturi again but this time it's in between the main pump and the return line, it should produce a co2 mist when my solenoid turns on tomorrow morning. I guess my other options are to look for one of those filter housing things and build a Cerges reactor or try building a 3-4" x 24-36" rex reactor.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

My experience with venturis is very miss, very little hit. I could never get mine to function the way I wanted it despite seeing people manage to use them regularly. I'll following this quite closely.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Freemananana said:


> My experience with venturis is very miss, very little hit. I could never get mine to function the way I wanted it despite seeing people manage to use them regularly. I'll following this quite closely.


after testing it for a day i swapped it out, i stood about 3-4 feet away from my tank and i could still see the co2 bubbles. the venturi might have been inconsistent too cuz every few seconds i see a burst of co2 bubbles too. didnt build a manifold for it, just main pump to mazzei venturi to the return line. @50 cc/min i was able to drop my ph by 1 point after 3hrs 45 mins?

_*March 8th, 2017*_
today i went back to the tall rex reactor but this chopped of part of the top and replaced it with a new one which has a co2 tube pulled through a 3/16 hole, basically something to vent the extra co2 microbubbles. the vent tube goes back to the reactor's pump.



reactor's output pointed at the main pump. the amount of micro bubbles in the sump has been greatly reduced, only some of it gets into the main tank. still took over 3hrs to get the ph to drop 1 point though, it drops by 0.5 in the first hour easily though.

the wet//dry filter outgases a lot more co2 than i thought


i might get rid of the tower and use one of these

i would just attach it to the main pump and stack the media on top of the box and swap to filter socks for mechanical filtration


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

A wet dry has a lot more disruption than a completely submerged sump. May be worth testing if possible.


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## OreoP (Aug 12, 2016)

SBReefLights Fresh Water Basic: Are these standard off the shelf or did you have them customized? Any noticeable spill?


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

OreoP said:


> SBReefLights Fresh Water Basic: Are these standard off the shelf or did you have them customized? Any noticeable spill?


off the shelf. got it from their website: https://sbreeflights.com/sbox-fw-plant-lights/21-basic-fresh-water-plant-led-light.html 
shipping can take awhile though depending if the lights are coming from hong kong or florida warehouse.

yeah there's a light spill. my light is only about 6" off the top of the tank though, fine for the 120 degree lenses but not the 90s

_*March 14th, 2017*_
Ordered a 4.5" x 20" water filter housing, gonna build a cerges reactor. hell of a lot more volume than my current reactor. more volume = better dissolution right?

4.5" x 20" reactor = ~318.09 cu in
2" x 42" reactor = ~131.95 cu in


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

*March 22nd,2017*

Got the new reactor in, had to rearrange the whole sump to fit it since it couldn't fit behind my stand. 

Ball valve 100%, 50 cc/min





Gonna try Ball valve 50%, 50 cc/min tomorrow 
if that doesnt work i need to look for a smaller pump or get rid of my wet/dry tower. those are the only 2 variables left that i can think of.

Got a bit of hair algae on my mosses unfortunately 



Still dunno what's wrong with my AR mini


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## Sean W. (Oct 12, 2013)

Hows that S repens treating you?


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Sean W. said:


> Hows that S repens treating you?


the ones i got from you are doing good, had a lil melting. the ones that melted hard are from another user.


strange thing is that I'm losing leaves at the bottom on most of the S. Repens. dunno if it's a lighting thing or too much mulm.

solved the microbubble problem with my reactor, dont even need the ball valve to create back pressure. i just had to switch the pump back to actual inlet side lol. this is it running at 100 cc/min or 100 ml/min. my 20# should last about 3 months at this rate. 

20 lb co2 tank = 4620 liters
100 ml/min = 6000 ml/hr = 6 l/hr = 48 l/day @ 8hrs
co2 will run out in 96.25 days = 13.75 weeks = ~3.44 months

0.8 or 1 ph point drop in 1hr now, tested with the API master kit. need to order some new powder for the ph pen.


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## dru (Mar 9, 2013)

Very cool setup, will be following along


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Added a check valve


Converted the wet/dry sump to a fully submerged sump. Black foam = 30 ppi, Blue foam 45 ppi. think i threw in 15 lbs of pumice stone in there.


The plastic pot scrubbies are gonna be removed



Full Tank shot:

planning to add Ammania Gracilis next to the Bacopa. The Ludwigia sp Red died awhile ago, dunno if it was due to overcrowding or some co2 related problem

AR Mini recovering


added a melon sword to where the old Ludwigia sp red was. it's been there for a week and doing good already. (it's in between the anubias and and amazon sword)


still have some hair algae in my moss and bba on the wood, just gonna spot dose h2o2 tomorrow (water change day). probably need to shorten the photo period from 8hrs to 7hrs.

weeping moss has been growing ridiculously the past 4 months, one of the boxes is completely full.
the inside dimensions of the breeder boxes are about 7" x 3.8" x 3" to give you an idea of how much is packed in there.


dunno what to do with the moss yet, maybe a carpet or wall? kinda hesitant though because of easily it catches detritus


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

*April 22nd, 2017*

Hardware update:
built a light rack for the LEDs, I don't really trust the steel legs lol. the rack might end up becoming a canopy someday.


Plant Update:
removed the Ludwigia Rubin and replaced with Ludwigia Peruensis



Added Nesaea pedicellata 'Golden'


Added Micranthemum Tweedie sp. Monte carlo


Added Ammania Gracilis? (ebay Dealer says its Gracilis but it doesn't look like any kind I've seen before)


That Argentine? Sword might e a problem in the future


FTS:


Still need to figure out whats causing the BBA on driftwood and the hair algae on the mosses. one cause could be the light coming in from the window


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

Nuisance sunlight does seem to be a secret cause for algae for many. I think that might be indeed be the cause.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

remember how i was trying to find the leak a couple of weeks back and couldn't find anything then? i found it now lol. what's dumb is that it only leaks if the tube gets bumped at a certain angle. replacing the push to connect with some compression fittings when they get here.






light rack / future canopy is up



the LEDS are about 10" above the water surface; it only needed to be 9" above but whatever, more space to work with. 30" between the substrate and LEDs, about 172ish PAR at center and 55ish at the corners i think.

something wonky going on with the Nesaea pedicellata 'Golden'


Peruensis dropping its lower leaves, dunno if due to overcrowding causing not enough light to get to the bottom or if it's just my return blasting them off


did the drastic thing and ripped off most of my moss due to hair algae


dunno how i feel about this new piece of wood yet, its kinda chunkier than the rest


1-2-punching the weeping moss


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

You're losing a lot of efficiency of your bio media by having it not take up the entire chamber. A lot of water will flow over top of it and not threw it.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Freemananana said:


> You're losing a lot of efficiency of your bio media by having it not take up the entire chamber. A lot of water will flow over top of it and not threw it.


ive been considering going back to the wet dry cuz of that but i would lose out on being able to use the filter sock. the filter sock seems to be doing a better job at picking up particulates than the polyfil. filter sock set up is a lot quieter too, no sounds from water hitting a drip plate

edit: foam pad before the pumps i usually just leave alone for additional bio, but yeah i need to figure out a better way to stack the pumice

i cant take my sump out and glue baffles in without taking the middle leg out of the stand, and my stand's only made of 2x4's. i should of went with 2x6 for the top frame and this wouldnt have been a problem.

i can still try out they idea with the tetra pond filter box (attach return and co2 pump to the box and just stack the 15lb of pumice stone on top of the box)


edit 2: rolled up the pumice stone like sushi rolls, there's 5 "rolls" in there. the cororplast was extra insurance to make sure the rolls stay equal in length to the inner width of the sump. the container is just some moss i had left over, the sump light is just a yescom 20", it's on for about 4hrs a day.


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## SteppingStones (Aug 8, 2014)

I hope you get the algae taken care of because that driftwood is amazing, and needs to be coated in moss again lol


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## sdwindansea (Oct 28, 2016)

Tank looks great and good luck with the BBA. I've been fighting it for months now. I have it under control but cannot get rid of it to save my life.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Branches re-mossed after a massive hair algae outbreak (probably caused by plants from my outdoor pond or decaying food that got stuck). took out the chunk Malaysian driftwood that was at the right. Spent like 4hrs tying the back branches (couldnt removed the wood from the tank, would lose the scape), front branches i tied the the nite before.




Pretty sure I killed off the BBA on the front 2 wood pieces, the process: 
Sprayed H2O2 on the pieces, letting the H2O2 do its work for about 5 to 8 mins. This was done outside the tank.
Next i hit it with Glutaraldehyde, letting it do it's work for 5 to 8 mins also. This was done outside the tank.
Took the driftwood to the bath tub, ran hot water on it while I scrubbed off the dead/dying BBA.
Finally soaked the wood in a bucket of hot water for a few mins.

Friday updates:
Need to prune the AR Mini some more:



Ammania Gracilis


Need to fill up some spaces between the Ludwigia Peruensis and nesaea pedicellata gold


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## trailsnale (Dec 2, 2009)

glad to see the moss back. always felt that was the best feature of your tank. well done!


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## sdwindansea (Oct 28, 2016)

Tank is looking great and I know how much of a PIA it must've been to deal with the BBA. I still cannot completely eradicate it from my tank and there is not a realistic way for me to remove the driftwood. I'm hoping to just keep it under control. Looking forward to your next update.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Did an 80% water change today. accidentally dosed about 45ppm of K during the last fert cycle and the leaves on AR Mini, Ammania, and Ludwigia Perunesis were curling/twisting.

Stretch out the AR Mini a bit. pruned em a bit too.


Trimmed Bacopa. Gonna try to find a plant that can deal with high currents for that spot behind the Ludwigia Perunesis


The new leaves on the Nasea Golden are coming in nice


Probably gonna add more anubias or bucephalandra to fill in those gaps in front of the swords. not sure how i feel about that huge anubias on the driftwood


Ripped out the lilaeopsis novae-zelandiae in this spot, not sure what i wanna replace it with.


FTS


Side Shots


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

bought a bunch of rotalas and filled some of it in the gap here. thanks @herns. might replace it with some pinkish bacopa if i can get my hands on some lol


added some java fern too, not sure about the placement yet


lagenandra meeboldii red


Ludwigia Perunesis and Nasaea Gold are doing good now, after upping my KNO3 and KH2PO4. thanks @burr740 and @Pikez (from barrreport).


Fert Schedule:

might tweak my Micros a bit later down the road.

FTS:


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

How's the Anubias doing? Did you end up removing it all to be safe?


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Opare said:


> How's the Anubias doing? Did you end up removing it all to be safe?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


the ones i know for sure that are infected with rot are out of the tank, they died with in a week. the big one that im worried about is being quarantined in a 5 gal at the moment. haven't seen the other anubias rot yet


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## herns (May 6, 2008)

Very nice size tank you have. Bacopa's are doing very well.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Huge trim today on the left side:
Moved Perunesis to the "sweet spot" of the left side of the tank


Filled the Section 4 (the back left corner) with bacopa. me and a friend just call that area Section 4 (4 being the homonym for death in chinese lol) cuz whatever plant i throw in that corner usually doesnt do well.


Might replace the Ammania Gracilis on the right of the Bacopa and L. Perunesis, i think it might be too big. 


Moved the Nasea to center (temporary spot)


Got a new piece of manzanita for $9. 18" x 1" x 1" approximately



not too sure where it's gonna go yet, maybe somewhere around here?


I'm half tempted to move all the hard scape a bit more to the right, only reason i havent yet is cuz i'm still looking for more manzanita driftwood. need to figure out some flow related stuff if i do.


how far would you guys move it?

current:


option 1:


option 2:


option 3:


option 4:


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## chinaboy1021 (May 30, 2003)

1 piece quite difficult to deal with .


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

Hmm Option 2 and Option 3 is what I would lean towards


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## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

I like #3 but I have a thing for the focal point being on the left side. So I'm going with #3 but rotated 180 degrees.

There is nothing wrong with the focal point on the right side. Just a personal preference.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Beautiful tank... I think it would look truly amazing once it grows and fills in. I love the diversity


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Rearranged the wood today. went with option 3 or whats close enough to it lol. the end of one of the wood pieces was longer than what i initially remembered 



from back to front: rotala sp., limnophila aromatica mini, hygrophila araguaia




not sure if i wanna keep the regular java fern up here


not sure what i wanna do with the argentine? swords. the main one is over 18" tall


not sure what i wanna do with my huge ass crypts too


might just shove it into the driftwood like this


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

I think the Crypts like that are a good look, maybe put the swords where the Java Fern is


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Opare said:


> I think the Crypts like that are a good look, maybe put the swords where the Java Fern is
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Can crypts attach to driftwood naturally or do I have to super glue/use fishing line on em?


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> Can crypts attach to driftwood naturally or do I have to super glue/use fishing line on em?


You may have to fishing line them initially then they may attach themselves but I cannot confirm nor deny this TBH.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

So ideas that ran through my head today:

Other background plant options I had in mind were if I were to get rid of the Swords:
- Limnophila Aromatica[censored]hippuroides? it was some type of big crazy pink one. if I do choose this i think it'll make the wood really pop. main concern with this choice would be if i have enough light, [censored]driftwood might shadow the bottom half.
- or Cryptocoryne crispatula 'Balansae'
- or Some type of val (maybe nana?)

Also considering ripping out the weeping moss that i have now and replacing them with a different moss or another cleaner batch of weeping moss. the current batch might have been too damaged by the 1-2 punch method from awhile back. 

If i decide not do mosses at all i might go with anubias nana petite on certain parts of the driftwood and let their roots to droop down for a jungle like look. Main concern here would be if the i have too much light near the top of the tank. I'm not sure how well anubias nana petite can handle 300+ PAR.

That area where unknown crypt is temporarily at i might want to replace with bolbitis.


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

I think the C. crispatula 'Balansae' would be my choice. The Vals may get annoying with runners, and agree that a stem could get too shaded.


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## Brian Rodgers (Oct 15, 2016)

I'm just learning about planted tank, so I can not add anything on that front. I will say these high tech tanks have so many options for plants, creating these beautiful aquascapes really brings this hobby to a peak. Amazing work @SingAlongWithTsing! Thank you for sharing your tank and experiences building this incredible underwater world.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

planted the swords at the back (at the suggestion of burr740) behind of the wood for now, they may come out some later down the line.Had plant the crypts down into the sand, yesterday i came back home to find them stuck in my overflow.


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## Brian Rodgers (Oct 15, 2016)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> planted the swords at the back (at the suggestion of burr740) behind of the wood for now, they may come out some later down the line.Had plant the crypts down into the sand, yesterday i came back home to find them stuck in my overflow.


Good to know plants becoming dislodged happens once in a while to you High Tech'ers too.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

finally built the lid lol





makes taking full shots so much easier


also adjusted my photo period down to 7hrs (trying to see if it'll cut down some of the BBA and reduce GSA on the glass) and have a semi ramp up. The red-heavy channel 2pm - 9pm, blue-heavy channel 3pm - 10pm.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

got my Fe Gluconate and MnSo4 from Nilocg a couple of days ago. Going by this chart pH is too high even with CO2 for EDTA to remain stable and DPTA is only stable for like 7hrs-8hrs a day in my tank i believe.

https://www.akzonobel.com/micronutrients/products/product_stability/

My new routine:


took Pikez's (saxatilly?) advice and moved the AR Mini to a spot with less PAR (had trouble growing it in its previous placement).



will be using the Ludwigia Perunesis and AR Mini to gauge how much Fe I need. the goal would be to get AR Mini to be as red as @burr740 's http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...120-gal-dutchy-freestyle-25.html#post10272873


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Hey Tsing, keep in mind the AR in my 120 is 'variegated', it's A LOT more bright red than the regular version. 

Yours looks about right to me. And now that it's under less light where it can sort of catch its breath, probably be a little healthier going forward.

The Ludwigia looks really healthy too, it's just not very red. This could simply be a light spectrum issue. Especially if no other plants show a Fe deficiency, ie greens with abnormally pale new growth. I'd crank that red channel as high as it will go.

I really think you should stick with dtpa. The gluconate is going to be even less effective at that PH. It wont be around 5 minutes. You'll know after a week or two if you start seeing brown gunk everywhere, starting with the outflow pipes. But you can try it and see.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

burr740 said:


> Hey Tsing, keep in mind the AR in my 120 is 'variegated', it's A LOT more bright red than the regular version.
> 
> Yours looks about right to me. And now that it's under less light where it can sort of catch its breath, probably be a little healthier going forward.
> 
> ...


wait, i thought gluconate worked in as low as 4 pH and as high as 8.5 pH?

yeah was gonna give it a week or 2 first to see what happens with the plants. and what do you mean by brown gunk? algae?


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> wait, i thought gluconate worked in as low as 4 pH and as high as 8.5 pH?
> 
> yeah was gonna give it a week or 2 first to see what happens with the plants. and what do you mean by brown gunk? algae?


brown gunk = precipitation residue, get ready for a lot of it, if what happens in mine is any indication.

Gluconate is not much of a chelate from what I understand. Not sure the specifics but Barr has said no need to even fool with gluconate if your ph is in the 7s or higher. It's explained over there somewhere but the site is down atm.

You could possibly get around this with daily dosing. When I said 5 minutes, that was just a figure of speech. But I know it doesnt stick around long because Ive seen it first hand.

Matter of fact, if I dose Fe gluconate before CO2 has dropped the PH way down in the 6s, it clouds the water immediately, a milky white cloudiness, which lasts 3-4 hours. This is using Flourish Iron liquid, which is Fe gluconate. Might be different using a powdered form, I've never tried it

ymmv


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

no brown residue so far with gluconate

1 week with gluconate

Perunesis looks better, at least the stem on the far right has a noticeable change


AR Mini doesn't look like it changed much


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

No brown gunk is a good sign. First place I notice it is on the inside of the outflow pipes.

Who knows, the dry compound might work a little different than Flourish liquid.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Removed the Amazon Swords, was blocking the flow across the back of the tank


removed crypts, replaced with Bolbitis and Java Fern


might add some bolbitis to the lwoer branches, not sure yet. part of me is saying that the current one dwarfs the hard scape too much,

ripped off all the weeping moss, stuff wouldn't recover and kept dying and flying off everywhere. not worth the extra maintenance time. it's weird, i did well with it before the hair algae mess. might switch to another moss or just give up on mosses for now.

moved anubias nana petitie to the old ar mini spot


fts




burr740 said:


> No brown gunk is a good sign. First place I notice it is on the inside of the outflow pipes.
> 
> Who knows, the dry compound might work a little different than Flourish liquid.


yeah i think im starting to remember the brown gunk on my 55 when i started out (was dosing Flourish too, it always covered my ludwigia and driftwood). always though it was some super form of diatoms at the time lmao.

think ima try gluconate for this week too. week 3 i'm thinking of bumping up the dose to .1 ppm Fe Gluconate and bump Mn to .05 with MnSO4.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Your tank looks fantastic. Are you guys saying that Flourish Fe isn't a good option? I'm using the Flourish Potassium now, but plan on picking up a full list of ferts once I get the pressurized CO2 system


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

so 2 weeks total of just Gluconate at 0.066 ppm 3x a week so far


the photos dont show it that well but the perunesis is a lil less red than compared to the 1st week. 

i guess the initial improvement during week 1 was due to a combination of some residual DPTA and the Fe Gluconate.

starting week 3 (July 1st, 2017). gonna bump Fe Gluconate to 0.19 ppm. if that doesnt work I'm gonna go to 0.18 ppm Fe DPTA 11% and 0.066 ppm Fe Gluconate


don't really have a lot to update this week, been preoccupied with another project


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

0.19 ppm of Fe Gluconate. July 1st - July 8th:
Still not satisfied lol.





New routine starting July 8th.


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## geektom (Dec 17, 2012)

Beautiful tank! 

How do you like your lighting set up?


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Ludwigia Perunesis


AR Mini recovery looking good, probably need to trim some of the older leaves next maintenance day


Meebolli Red coloring up finally, Nesea Golden finally adjusted to my water i think, added Ludiwigia Sp Red to the back next to the Limnophilia Aromatic Mini


Full tank shot:

gonna trim the Bacopa and Perunesis some time next week



geektom said:


> Beautiful tank!
> 
> How do you like your lighting set up?


thanks. i still like my LEDs after 6ish - 7ish months lol.


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## Brian Rodgers (Oct 15, 2016)

Really nice to see the changes with your tank Tsing.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

3 Days after trim:


kinda want to plant something red in that corner, anyone have any suggestions for a red plant that can handle high flow?

Moved the L.perunesis in the corner temporarily. leaves got messed up from it getting stuck in the power head


Lagandera Meebolli red might need more room soon


L. sp Red doing good so far. 


got materials for a moss wall ready except the moss. havent decided on what type of moss yet


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

What type of java fern is that on top of the wood? Maybe the mix with bolbitus is giving it that unique look. It looks great


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

The Dude1 said:


> What type of java fern is that on top of the wood? Maybe the mix with bolbitus is giving it that unique look. It looks great


it's just regular java fern on the wood, i do have some bolbitis mixed in on the right side of the wood. im not sure if its what i want tbh, seems to dwarf the wood


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

moved the windelov from the right side of the tank to the branches. dunno if i like it yet, kinda also worry about it getting 300-350 par up there.
there's also 1 or 2 stems of hygro pinnatifida up there, gonna see how red it gets from high light. it might end up replacing the windelov on the branches if it gets that canopy effect


right side now after mini rescape, the araguaia might come out for some other plant on


nasea gold looking good, added hygrophila pinnatifida and barclaya longifolia 


micros were too high and made ar mini wavy, more experienced people confirmed this


gonna go back to low micros:


FTS:


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Looks fantastic... The bolbitus in my 75 keeps getting black hair algae on it as it's so close to the lights... I'm not sure what I can do other than wipe it off. It gets the first blast of CO2 rich water out of the filter output. The bolbitus on one side and the windolev neat it really works in my opinion


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

The Dude1 said:


> Looks fantastic... The bolbitus in my 75 keeps getting black hair algae on it as it's so close to the lights... I'm not sure what I can do other than wipe it off. It gets the first blast of CO2 rich water out of the filter output. The bolbitus on one side and the windolev neat it really works in my opinion


thanks

i have lil tufts of bba on my windelov and bolbitis too. i'm 90% sure the bba on my windelov was from organics building on it, left over food, etc.

i took a small paint brush and brushed on some gluteraldehyde on the infected areas of the windlov, hopefully i didnt over do it.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

re-did the sump on tuesday, reduced co2 degassing, reduced the chance of water by passing the bio-media with the pond box

CO2 drop by the end of day @ 80 cc/min: 8.2 -> 6.6, before renovation 8.2 -> 6.8.
Gonna reduce CO2 a lil bit, I don't think I need a 1.6 drop lmao. Gonna try to get the pH to drop to 7 with in 2 hrs of the reactor turning on.

(click for larger images)


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## Brian Rodgers (Oct 15, 2016)

Your system looks like a lot of fun to play with. With the new sump setup and layout looking so nice I have even more tank envy. Nice work as always Tsing


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Brian Rodgers said:


> Your system looks like a lot of fun to play with. With the new sump setup and layout looking so nice I have even more tank envy. Nice work as always Tsing


thanks

tbh i think i enjoy the plumbing/filtration side of the hobby more than the planting side LOL. something wonky always goes wrong with the plants.


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## Brian Rodgers (Oct 15, 2016)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> thanks
> 
> tbh i think i enjoy the plumbing/filtration side of the hobby more than the planting side LOL. something wonky always goes wrong with the plants.


That is funny. I set up a several consumer electronics service shops during my career. I was always better and had more fun doing the setups than using the setups, lol! 
It seems to be the same with my 2600 gallon Brook trout aquaponics system. Now that one has some plumbing 0 I'm in hog heaven among the tanks, pipes and fish.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

*August 23rd, 2017*

Ripped out a majority of the Bacopa Caroliniana on the left side


Replaced it with a mix of Limnophila Hippuroides and Alternantherea Reineckii Varigated, emersed forms from PearlingPlants. Separated the grouping with Mermaid Weed from @burr740



The Bacopa Caroliniana and Alternantherea Reineckii Varigated might swap places depending on how pink the Limnophila Hippuroides get.

Hoping the Mermaid Weed turns a nice orange color in that area of the tank, should be close to 120 PAR at where it's planted.

And yeah that's some plastic mesh on the wall. I might just use Monte Carlo, HC, or some type of Hydrocotyle for the wall after seeing this video





Not sure sure what to with the Nesaea pedicellata Golden, kinda want to move it but it seems to like that spot in the tank


the Lagenandra Meeboldii Red seems to like that spot too


Upped Plantex CSM+B a lil bit due to a potential Mo deficiency with the Hygro Pinnatifda, added Fe Gluconate again in attempt to see if I can make the Ludwigia Perunesis a deep red like a few weeks ago


Still tempted to roll my own micros, mostly because I'm pretty sure the Fe EDTA isn't doing much at my pH range. not being able to increase the other micros without increasing Fe EDTA is also a pita

FTS


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Switched to a recipe by burr740 about a month ago:


I've added a bit more Fe gluconate to test some stuff. Might end up switching the extra Gluconate to DPTA


AR Varigated is looking nice


AR Mini is still recovering form all the bs I put it through but it's doign a lot better with with burr's trace mix


No clue what this plant is but it grows stupid fast in my tank


Same plant just in a shadier spot of the tank


Favorite angle:


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Nice! Love that side view. Its what I miss most on mine after doing the Dutch sides.

Said this in your Barr Report journal but I guess I'll put it here maybe for other folks -

You can speed things a long with the AR by going ahead and pinching all those older ratty leaves off. Be ruthless, it'll thank you later.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Been awhile since I updated the thread here lol






Hardware changes:
Change the Cerges reactor output. Instead of it going in line to to the main pump's output it now goes into the main pump's "intake" / the tetra pond filter box.

This is attached to the end of the out put and it faces down on the box. Helps direct co2 into the box, prevents it from blowing my pumice stone too much.


Plant Changes:
Trimmed the Stauro, gonna try to expand the carpet. 

Might look for a darker carpet to contrast with the stauro, I'm open to suggestions if anyone has any.

Day Mode FTS


Nite Mode FTS


More Nite shots


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## Rogozhin75 (Aug 15, 2017)

Damn, that is a gorgeous setup.


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## navarro1950 (Jul 25, 2014)

REALLY nice tank


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Looking great. Very nice interesting layout. 

Nice work!


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Been awhile since the last update. The tank is officially 1 year old now and I still can’t find a good camera setting.

Still need to figure out some Fe, B, Zn, and possibly Mg issues.
Fert chart for the curious


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

*Minor update
*
Trimmed the right side some more, the Bacopa and w/e Ludwigia it is hit the surface again. Moved all the Staurogyene Repens on the right to fill in some gaps on the left. Gonna plant a bunch of Lobelia Cardinalis Small Form in that area next to the AR.Camera isn't capturing the orange/peach color of the Ludwigia tops for w/e reason.


Mixed the AR Varigated witht he AR Mini. felt odd to have em spread apart.


Bucephalandra Arrogant Blue, been in here for a couple of months now.


Limnophila Aromatica Hippuroides


Fert Regime:


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

*More plants*
Ordered some Bucephaladra Theia Blue and Green Wavy from @Maryland_Guppy;, and he threw in some Microsword and Ranunculus too




more Buce to the Buce hedge/wall



the tall ones


and yes i planted the new batch of buce like stem plants like MG did. The part of rhizome under the substrate will rot but roots will still grow and take its place.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

*Updates*
Re-adding Ludwigia Perunesis/Glandulosa
Added more Limnophila Hippuroides
Added Rotala Indica
Considering removing Mermaid Weed
Considering replacing the Ranunculus with Panthorum Seiodes
Considering Moss Carpet in the shaded area under the Windelove Javafern
Considering replacing the power head with a surface skimmer
Might separate the Ludwigia Perunesis/Glandulosa and Limnophila Hippuroides depending what colors they put out

Rescaped about 1/3rd of the tank due to PAR numbers






New fert routine starting today


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Mo should be more like .0015 ppm doses, not .00015

Ni should be .0005 ppm doses (which is still a lot relatively speaking) not .005

Plants use Mo to process NO3, so if those chart values are correct it might explain a few things...

The Ni, not sure if that much would hurt anything or not but its still a ton more than necessary.

I like the new layout!


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

burr740 said:


> Mo should be more like .0015 ppm doses, not .00015
> 
> Ni should be .0005 ppm doses (which is still a lot relatively speaking) not .005
> 
> ...


thanks, slowly trying to get into a dutch-like style lol

Ni is 0.0005 per dose.

Purposely keeping Mo at 0.00015 this batch, I think my tap actually has some already (city's report says there's any where between 0.0018 to 0.005, average being 0.00281). Was previously dosing 0.0015 per dose in the old Ver 16 Fert Chart.

Idk if it applies to aquatic plants but I think I had too much Mo and it might have been causing a faux Fe deficiency in my S.Repens. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/playing-rules-biochemical-sequence-nutrient-caitlin-blackman


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Nice update. 

Love the layout and the mood you create there. 

Will be interesting to see how things develop with a bit more "Dutch".

Always look forward to seeing new pics, and by the way great spreadsheet too.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

got more plants today, thanks @burr740

Leopard Val, Limnophila Rugosa, Panthorum Seiodes, and Hydrocotyle Tripartia Japan


tfw you run out floor space so you have to start using the walls. Suction cupped the Rugosa for now til I make room. under estimated the leaf size lol


not sure what I'ma do with the Leopard Val yet


Panthorum Seiodes. Been looking for this plant for the past 2 years xD


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Suction cupped lol, Nice! Ive never thought of that. And just wait til they get bigger, those arent exactly large ones 

Thats a good place for the Penthorum, nice splash of brightness


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## sdwindansea (Oct 28, 2016)

Tank looks great and I love all the buce. Have you had any issues with BBA on the buce leaves? For whatever reason, I always have a bit of it, typically on the older leaves.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

burr740 said:


> Suction cupped lol, Nice! Ive never thought of that. And just wait til they get bigger, those arent exactly large ones


how much bigger do the leaves get? i should probably start planning soon lol



sdwindansea said:


> Tank looks great and I love all the buce. Have you had any issues with BBA on the buce leaves? For whatever reason, I always have a bit of it, typically on the older leaves.


some BBA on the older leaves but those leaves wear near areas that mulm easily built up in (this was before the layout change). With the new layout I'm hoping I can avoid the mulm build up.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

The overall tops get about 3" in my tanks. Its a tough plant, takes crowding very well and doesnt mind getting yanked and replanted. It doesnt have an aggressive root system. Sometimes huge stems will hardly be anchored at all. 

It grows fairly fast, but not super fast, vertically. The main attention its going to need is side shoot control. 










You'll be pinching a lot of these off once you have as many stems as you want. They can of course be planted to make more.

It also likes to drop areal roots at the lower nodes as you can see in the pic. These can just be pinched off or ignored.

So it needs a little more pruning and pinching than your avg stem to keep it under control. The good news is its a very tough plant and doesnt mind whatever you want to do with it. 

To me the unique leaf and striking green color makes it worth a little extra effort.


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## sdwindansea (Oct 28, 2016)

Thanks for the response. Do you trim off the leaves with the BBA on your buces? I have not, been doing periodic spot dosing of H2O2 where it is noticeable. Unfortunately for me, it is not consistent. Doesn't matter how much light, water flow, type of buce, etc. 

Looking forward to your next update. With all those plants you might need a bigger tank .


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

sdwindansea said:


> Thanks for the response. Do you trim off the leaves with the BBA on your buces? I have not, been doing periodic spot dosing of H2O2 where it is noticeable. Unfortunately for me, it is not consistent. Doesn't matter how much light, water flow, type of buce, etc. Looking forward to your next update. With all those plants you might need a bigger tank .


I only trim them off if it's really really bad, I'm talking like 75%+ of the leaf being covered in BBA. Sometimes I get lucky and I can remove a majority of the BBA by hand and the lil strands left I hit with glut either with a paint brush (buce would temporarily be in a small 500ml cup) or a syringe (buce would be kept in main tank).


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## sdwindansea (Oct 28, 2016)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> I only trim them off if it's really really bad, I'm talking like 75%+ of the leaf being covered in BBA. Sometimes I get lucky and I can remove a majority of the BBA by hand and the lil strands left I hit with glut either with a paint brush (buce would temporarily be in a small 500ml cup) or a syringe (buce would be kept in main tank).


Sounds like we are doing the same thing then. Thanks again, it is a constant learning experience for me. I've basically been luck so far.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

*Small update:*
Finally got more Denison Barbs. 2 from LFS ($15 ea) and 2 from a Petco ($10 ea). Pic of the LFS one, will color up more in the upcoming months. Have a total of 9 of em now.



Perunesis is still a lil bit twisted


Still getting random holes on some leaves on various plants, 2nd set of leaves and below usually



might be a K deficiency?

current fert routine. might up the K to 36 or 40 ppm per week


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

*Minor Update*

The Bad

Pulled out more leaves with holes. All of these are older leaves. Has to be some type of mobile deficiency right?


Not enough light in this corner, gonna try to find a low light plant for this corner to cover up the bacopa colorota in this area


Some of the Alternanthere Reineckii Mini is being shaded way too much by the java fern, the Varigated doesn't seem to care. Light is between 31~48 PAR here.


Perunesis still a lil wavy


The Good
Staurogyne Repens finally doing good, think I it was under way too much light before, this spot is below 100 PAR vs the 140+ from before


The ???
Leopard Val grew a runner and that runner grew a runner lol. Almost been a month now.


Right side of the tank hitting the surface again 


Lef side progression shot:


Rolling with this routine for the next couple of weeks. Gonna see if the higher K helps.


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## sdwindansea (Oct 28, 2016)

Your tank is looking great and this is a fun journal to follow (good learning experience for me as well).


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Nice update! Always looking forward to seeing what's going on in your tank and the latest pics.

Will be interesting to see if K is the culprit.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Nice update, tank looks great.

Bacopa dropping lower leaves is a plant happiness issue, not a light issue. Its a myth that lower leaves need light to stay attached. Might be whatever is still causing the holes in other stuff. The holes are looking better though, right? Not as severe as before.

And I cant decide if seeing those AR variegated so nice and flat gives me hope or just pisses me off.  Mine just wont flatten out like that.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

sdwindansea said:


> Your tank is looking great and this is a fun journal to follow (good learning experience for me as well).


thanks


Greggz said:


> Nice update! Always looking forward to seeing what's going on in your tank and the latest pics.
> 
> Will be interesting to see if K is the culprit.


hopefully it does, otherwise im stumped lol. 



burr740 said:


> Nice update, tank looks great.
> 
> Bacopa dropping lower leaves is a plant happiness issue, not a light issue. Its a myth that lower leaves need light to stay attached. Might be whatever is still causing the holes in other stuff.


Plant happiness? I'm having a brain fart here lol
CO2 should be good in that area, return line is above and near the back right corner. The again the Bacopa Caroliniana is pretty dense and is probably blocking some flow.
Leaf loss is usually attributed to low Phosphate right?



> The holes are looking better though, right? Not as severe as before.


Too soon to tell, only started using v18 Fer Routine since last Friday.



> And I cant decide if seeing those AR variegated so nice and flat gives me hope or just pisses me off.  Mine just wont flatten out like that.


How long have you had your AR Variegated? think it took mines 2 months to adjust. Honestly I don't think I'll ever be happy with this plant unless ends up looking like one of @Xiaozhuang 's


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> Plant happiness? I'm having a brain fart here lol
> CO2 should be good in that area, return line is above and near the back right corner. The again the Bacopa Caroliniana is pretty dense and is probably blocking some flow.
> Leaf loss is usually attributed to low Phosphate right?
> 
> ...


Hah, I just meant its not because the lower leaves arent getting light, it's because the plant's not entirely happy for whatever reason. (no idea why)

Ive had the AR for probably 3 years now. It grows OK most of the time but the leaves never get entirely flat


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> *Minor Update*
> 
> The Bad
> 
> Pulled out more leaves with holes. All of these are older leaves. Has to be some type of mobile deficiency right?


I call snails on this one ( especially ones from @burr740 > ) It happens on my crypts. Alright, for reals, I think it does start out as a pinhole from some deficiency or age perhaps, but the snails are all too happy to take advantage and turn em into that wide bitten look. Awesome looking plants in your tank otherwise. If that's all you have to worry about, then, well, we could all hope to be in that situation one day...


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

*Minor update*
(Pic from April 20th, 2018)


Something funky going on with the Perunesis. Not sure if the curling is from the recently upped K (weekly is now 40 ppm), some of the leaves were twisted before but not they're just curled so I guess its an improvement? The first 2 set of leaves looking caramelized (dunno how else to describe it) showed up at about 3 weeks ago, same time as the K uppage. tagging @Seattle_Aquarist our resident deficiency expert 






Hydrocotyle tripartia japan is doing fine. it's about 16" across now. Might end up using it as a carpet somewhere if it get's any larger lol


Hydrocotyle sibthorpioides, I think it's still adjusting to my tank. Haven't seen it change much yet.


random notes I jotted down on the 13th

End of week analysis:
NO3 ~60 ppm*
PO4 ~7-8 ppm*
Ca ~80 ppm
Mg ~14-16 ppm*
dkH 10
dgH 15
* tested w/ 50% tank 50% distilled otherwise it would of been to high to read.

Deficiency analysis:
NO3: no
PO4: probable, black patches on Java Fern and Windelov Java Fern
K: probable, holes in various plants but Ludwigia Perunesis leaves are curling (happened with past experiences)

Ca: no
Mg: probable if assuming 4:1 Ca: Mg ratio is needed

Fe: no, 0.1 ppm weekly should be sufficient. no pale leaves 
Mn: possibly mistaken for K deficiency 
B: no, no stem death
Zn: 
Mo: no, tap should be sufficient @ 0.0018 ppm~0.005 ppm along with weekly 0.0009 ppm
Ni: no, no necrotic tips on plants
Cu:
S:


the K was bumped up to 40 ppm weekly 3 weeks ago (up from 30 ppm weekly)
the P was bumped up recently (less than 4 days ago, up from 5 ppm weekly)
the Macro changes will match what Tom Barr had in his 120

reason I'm bumping up the P:

the cell membrane part caught my eye, weak cell membranes could be what's causing holes in some leaves right?


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @SingAlongWithTsing,










Notice how the leaf tips of the new leaves are 'hooking' downward, this is a symptom of a calcium deficiency.



> I. Symptoms appearing first or most severely on new growth (root and shoot tips, new leaves)
> 
> A. Terminal bud usually dies. Symptoms on new growth.
> 
> ...


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @SingAlongWithTsing,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I always assumed I had enough calcium in the water with 10 dkH / about ~80 ppm Ca (been told the the Saltwater API Ca test kit also works for fresh water).

thanks, will probably try to add a bit of Ca and see what happens


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

How are the "Buce" doing? Planted as stems???


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> Hydrocotyle sibthorpioides, I think it's still adjusting to my tank. Haven't seen it change much yet.


You mean Hygrophila serpyllum, right? 

Something major is lacking if this plant isnt running wild, even in low light.

Going out on a limb but the extra K could've induced a Ca deficiency. Those two (along with Mg) compete for uptake by the plants (antagonists). Although it seems unlikely 40 ppm K would interfere with 80 ppm Ca if those numbers are accurate.

Ca on the other hand, can inhibit the uptake of K, Mg, Mn, B, Zn and Fe. So if you truly have 80 ppm ca, some of these other nutrients may need to be abnormally high to compensate.

This image illustrates the general idea of which nutrients antagonize each other, and which ones enhance










_The Mulder’s Chart shows how elements interact. The dotted lines show which elements enhance each other. The solid lines show which elements antagonize each other._

From HERE. 


High PH levels compound the issue because most nutrients become less available the further away from 6.5-7 it goes.

Obviously Im just throwing some stuff out there to consider. Something is definitely off because on the surface you seem to have adequate levels of everything.

Personally Id try raising B and Zn. Ive seen similar new growth symptoms when those two arent enough. Since <apparently> Ca is so high, you may need abnormally high levels of something else to compensate.

It also looks like you have both new growth and old growth symptoms. I dont absolutely subscribe to the notion there can only be one deficiency at a time. And many "textbook symptoms" we associate with certain nutrients can overlap with other nutrient shortages. BUT, when there are multiple symptoms occurring across a variety of plants, the first thing you should check is CO2. (yes Im pointing out the obvious because I know you're aware of this  )


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Maryland Guppy said:


> How are the "Buce" doing? Planted as stems???


still alive lol




burr740 said:


> You mean Hygrophila serpyllum, right?


yeah serpyllum xD



> Something major is lacking if this plant isnt running wild, even in low light.


it was planted on April 11th. Is it really that quick to adapt to new parameters? o.o



> Going out on a limb but the extra K could've induced a Ca deficiency. Those two (along with Mg) compete for uptake by the plants (antagonists). Although it seems unlikely 40 ppm K would interfere with 80 ppm Ca if those numbers are accurate.
> 
> Ca on the other hand, can inhibit the uptake of K, Mg, Mn, B, Zn and Fe. So if you truly have 80 ppm ca, some of these other nutrients may need to be abnormally high to compensate.


Weird thing is that a different batch of ludwigia Perunesis grew fine a long time ago at 30 NO3, 5 PO4, 30 K weekly. I was still using csmb at the time though.

I tested it with API Calcium test kit (Ca 2+) and also got around 80 ppm. 


I mathed it out just incase:
currently this time of year my tap is 10 dKH, dGH 15, 8.1 pH
Ca ppm = dKH*17.86*0.4004 = 71.51 ppm

another formula just in case and using Mg to find Ca, Mg being 16 ppm according to the JBL Mg Freshwater test kit.
Ca ppm = (((4.1*Mg ppm)-(17.86*dGH))/-2.5) = 80.92 ppm 



> This image illustrates the general idea of which nutrients antagonize each other, and which ones enhance
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Never got to recording the times between 11:30 PM to 10 AM
Full degas (separate cup of water) is around 8.1 pH

I guess I'll try bumping up the B and Zn first since I actually have those 2 on hand. How much do you suggest raising them at first? or should I just dose all my micros at a higher level?



> It also looks like you have both new growth and old growth symptoms. I dont absolutely subscribe to the notion there can only be one deficiency at a time. And many "textbook symptoms" we associate with certain nutrients can overlap with other nutrient shortages. BUT, when there are multiple symptoms occurring across a variety of plants, the first thing you should check is CO2. (yes Im pointing out the obvious because I know you're aware of this  )


I know CO2 flows to the area near the Ludwigia Perunesis (i watch the flake food lol) can't speak for the quality of the flow though.


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

You're dosing micros daily right? Id raise B from .025 to .035 per day, and Zn to .065.

Might wanna do one at a time, I'd probably start with B because Ive seen those same crinkled Ludwigia tips come and go in L red based on B alone.

I dont think unchelated Zn sticks around very long, which would explain why Seachem uses so much. Its the highest nutrient in Trace, ppm-wise about 2x the Mn

My tanks do better in the .055-.065 per day range. Ive tried lowering it several times simply because that seems like a whopping amount, always get negative signs starting down in the 40s


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

burr740 said:


> You're dosing micros daily right? Id raise B from .025 to .035 per day, and Zn to .065.
> 
> Might wanna do one at a time, I'd probably start with B because Ive seen those same crinkled Ludwigia tips come and go in L red based on B alone.
> 
> ...


yup daily. currently is B 0.03 daily and Zn 0.06 daily.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> yup daily. currently is B 0.03 daily and Zn 0.06 daily.


Oh I must've miscalculated based on your spreadsheet. Then I'd try raising B another 10 ppb and Zn another 15. Sounds like a lot but it may be needed if something else is interfering. 80 ppm Ca is a lot too.

You could make a solution with just one or both to add along with your main micro mix. You should know something after about a week if it's a positive thing or not.


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## acino (Nov 14, 2017)

I am really curious how this turns out.

I am experiencing a very similar thing. It started like curling of the leaves on your photos, but now there are visible VERY dark areas starting from the tip, which after closer inspection are translucent . Only L. glandulosa, A. mini and L. super red mini are visibly affected (funny - only red plants). It all started after I bumped my daily doses of micros up. The plants I mentioned stopped growing completely, others slowed down considerably (1 inch of growth per 2 weeks, 160W LED on 75g, CO2 etc etc). Some plants such as D. diandra display visible chlorosis of the tips, even though there is 0.7 ppm of Fe in water.

Now what I suspect is happening is Zinc toxicity. Yes, I said it.  The symptoms are described as "*stunting of shoot, curling and rolling of young leaves, death of leaf tips and chlorosis*". Several years ago, there was a thread on aquaticplantcentral where two guys were experiencing similar issues and upon laboratory testing of water showed accumulation of Zn (0.4 ppm). 

I read a ton of literature on this and it seems the plants tolerance to Zn is very variable, some is starting as low as 65 ppb. It can be partially mitigated by Ca in water (I have the paper available in case you want to read it). I should say I have pretty soft water (4 DGH) and literally 0 DKH (thanks, substrate!), Zinc is more likely to become dangerous in my tank. There are no carbonates so it cannot even start to precipitate. In addition, my tap water might have some obscene amounts in it (?). This is why I think some people can dose higher amounts of Zn.

If you look at the composition all the commercial fertilizers at RotalaButterfly, you will see that all of them (even Seachem) dose 2-4 ppb of Zn per 50 ppb of Mn. This is very different from what we are dosing right now, and I wonder what the reason is. Could it be toxicity, or simply because there is generally enough Zn in tap water as it is?

Sorry for this long write up, maybe it is not completely related to your case, but it has been bugging me for two weeks now.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

acino said:


> I am really curious how this turns out.
> 
> I am experiencing a very similar thing. It started like curling of the leaves on your photos, but now there are visible VERY dark areas starting from the tip, which after closer inspection are translucent . Only L. glandulosa, A. mini and L. super red mini are visibly affected (funny - only red plants). It all started after I bumped my daily doses of micros up. The plants I mentioned stopped growing completely, others slowed down considerably (1 inch of growth per 2 weeks, 160W LED on 75g, CO2 etc etc). Some plants such as D. diandra display visible chlorosis of the tips, even though there is 0.7 ppm of Fe in water.
> 
> ...


Good post and just goes to show how different set ups need different things.

Zn has a pretty low potential for toxicity by itself. The main thing it does when levels are too high is inhibit the absorption of something else, as the chart posted above illustrated.

Pretty good simplified article HERE.

In your case you have Fe symptoms in spite of having .7 ppm in the water column. So your issue could very well be too much Zn, or too much Mn or P, which also compete with Fe for absorption by the plants

Zn will be more available, and stick around longer, in low PH levels, low KH, and in the presence of low levels of Ca and some other nutrients.

In Tsing's case his tank has quite the opposite, so he could need more Zn to compensate for other high levels. (or it could have squat to do with B and Zn and be entirely related to something else) 

Also whether the Zn is chelated or not makes a big difference how much we need to dump in there. Tsing is using non-chelated Zn like the rest of us who are currently rolling their own. It's the same compounds Seachem uses which is why I referenced them. Most commercial product use edta based compounds, Seachem doesnt.

Non-chelated compounds dont stick around as long as chelated ones. So even though 65 ppb sounds like a lot, it becomes a different story if its all or mostly gone in a few hours. 

All of the above is why it's not so much what we put in the dosing bottle, it's more about what happens once it's added to the water column.



acino said:


> If you look at the composition all the commercial fertilizers at RotalaButterfly, you will see that all of them (even Seachem) dose 2-4 ppb of Zn per 50 ppb of Mn. This is very different from what we are dosing right now, and I wonder what the reason is. Could it be toxicity, or simply because there is generally enough Zn in tap water as it is?


This is correct if you just look at Seachem Flourish Comp. But if you look at Flourish Trace, which according to Seachem is designed to be used in conjunction, you'll fine a lot more Zn than anything else










Here is what you get from both following the directions on the label

Comp - Trace - Both

Fe - .07 - 0 = .07 ppm
Mn - .002 - .0056 = .0076 ppm
B - .0019 - .0018 = .0037
Zn - .00015 - .0111 = .01125
Mo - .0002 - .00019 = .00039
Cu - .00002 - .0021 = .0021
Ni - 0 - .000002

Simplified totals for both in ppb

Fe - 70
Mn - 7.6
B - 3.7
Zn - 11.25
Mo - .39
Cu - 2.1
Ni - .002


And here again Seachem is using non-chelated compounds, including Zn. Which is the only reason I can think of why Zn is so high relative to everything else. Because you wont find such a high ratio of Zn in any research paper or study showing what plants need, or in any other commercial product that uses edta Zn

Since we are using all the same compounds as Seachem, it makes sense to follow their logic to a certain degree, or at least draw some insight from it


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## acino (Nov 14, 2017)

Hmm, I did not notice the trace. Only looked at the comprehensive and the rest of the manufacturers.

How would you explain rolling down leaves, darkening of tips and translucent tissue?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

acino said:


> Hmm, I did not notice the trace. Only looked at the comprehensive and the rest of the manufacturers.
> 
> How would you explain rolling down leaves, darkening of tips and translucent tissue?


I couldnt begin to explain it unfortunately. Could be too much of something (toxicity) or an induced deficiency (high levels of one thing inhibiting another) or just a straight up lack of something.

Based on your other parameters, your guess of too much Zn sounds as reasonable as anything to me. 

Although I can say that Ive never seen a negative response from high Zn levels, going as high as 75 ppb daily. Ive only seen negative responses from dosing 40 and below. 

But that's under my parameters, GH, PH, substrate and all that, and using non-chelated Zn. Your mileage may certainly vary.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

anyone want to play spot the difference lol.. :c


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

The white balance setting?

Them holes tho, I think its an induced k deficiency from so much Ca


----------



## acino (Nov 14, 2017)

Amazing. Was that the zinc/boron after all?


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

acino said:


> Amazing. Was that the zinc/boron after all?


holes were already developing before the pic. i've only upped the zinc and boron on the 25th.

back to the perunesis. i got curious today and pulled it out to check on the roots


same stem


wonky one vs ok one


moved some tripartia japan to the bottom right, gonna see how well it carpets in this corner. might move the leopard? val more up front, can barely see the thing in some pics


trimmed the repens of the right side, buceket's about 4 gallons


and into the 27 gallon plant back up tote it goes, anything growing in here doesnt seem to have any deficiency. heavily shaded, dirt and osmocote with sand cap.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

think i might end up moving the hygrophila serpyllum at this spot to another part of the tank in the next few days.


these couple of nodes were grown near the top of the tank in that big pile of hydrocotyle tripartia, recently moved it down this morning. 


I think the added Zn and B is helping



the one good stem lol


gonna stop front loading K to see if the curling on Perunesis improves. will still be doing 40 ppm K a week. Dropping P back to 5 ppm per week, notice that Ludwigia Repens was taking a lil bit longer to color back up post trimming.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

so going back through old pics and im pretty disappointed with whats happening with the L.Perunesis and some of my Buce 

these were back in march



now




this really made me sad when i compared back to a couple of months ago. pretty much ruined the 1+ year old brownie blue and purple in the back and the greenwavy i got back in february? yeah I know were comparing day and nite settings between the 2 pics but the terminal bud? and missing leaves is what i wanted to focus on.

Have about 2-3 weeks to fix this.

the only major thing i bumped between March and now was 30 ppm K to 40 ppm. 

also back between March and January my Bacopa still had their bottom leaves, I'm guessing K being bumped between March and now also screwed something up with Bacopa.

I'm dropping the K back to 30 ppm per week. hopefully the hole-in-leaf problem was just a Zinc problem, had that problem since October or November 2017?


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @SingAlongWithTsing,

I see nothing was done about the calcium issue; same hooked leaf tips on new leaves, same wavy leaf margins. Post #116 on 4/24


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @SingAlongWithTsing,
> 
> I see nothing was done about the calcium issue; same hooked leaf tips on new leaves, same wavy leaf margins. Post #116 on 4/24


yeah was testing out if it was a Boron thing first cuz my tap was Reading 80 ppm for Ca, which should be enough in theory right? 

tap from cities with in 15 mins of me are about 37-40 ppm Ca

cutting back on the K this week to see if it helps. too high in potassium probably caused a faux calcium deficiency in my case since those 2 are antagonistic of each other


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> yeah was testing out if it was a Boron thing first cuz my tap was Reading 80 ppm for Ca, which should be enough in theory right?
> 
> tap from cities with in 15 mins of me are about 37-40 ppm Ca
> 
> cutting back on the K this week to see if it helps. too high in potassium probably caused a faux calcium deficiency in my case since those 2 are antagonistic of each other


I'll be interested to see if this has any effect. I have been dosing high levels of K for quite a long time (45ppm), which is mostly the result of using K2CO3 to raise KH of my RO water. 

My GH is 6, but I've never tested my Ca, which I should do sometime.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Raising K could've brought about another shortage. It doesnt seem reasonable to me that 40 ppm K, up from 30, is interfering with 80 ppm Ca, or even 35-40 (which is about where mine is)

This tank has always had some weird issues, deficiency symptoms that on paper at least shouldnt be there based on the ppms youre dosing.

I have a theory that since Ca is unreasonably high and you cant change that, assuming you really do have 80 ppm, you may need to dose according to the high Ca level. By that I mean get the levels of everything Ca interferes with (competes for uptake within the plant) get those levels up for a better ratio.

If you revisit the chart I posted HERE (and check out the article while you're at it)

Those nutrients include K, Mg, P, B, Zn and Fe

So if you're up for an experiment... :red_mouth

Raise K to 60 ppm per week 
Mg - 20
P - 7.5
B - 50
Zn - 75
Fe - 1.5

Or something like that. Try it for a couple of weeks and see what happens. Usually if the plants are starved for something, adding more will spark a rapid improvement. I think you'd know pretty quick if its a good thing or not.

Of course this is just a theory which assumes you really are dealing with 80 ppm Ca in the tap. If that is the case, since you cant lower Ca you may need to adjust things the other way.

Alternatively, you could raise Ca as Roy is suggesting and see what happens. I do see a few textbook Ca deficiency symptoms, but there are other symptoms as well. If more ca is needed this should improve things. If too much Ca is the problem it should make matters worse.

Either route should give you some insight into which way to go


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

burr740 said:


> Raising K could've brought about another shortage. It doesnt seem reasonable to me that 40 ppm K, up from 30, is interfering with 80 ppm Ca, or even 35-40 (which is about where mine is)
> 
> This tank has always had some weird issues, deficiency symptoms that on paper at least shouldnt be there based on the ppms youre dosing.
> 
> ...


what's your current Mg and K?
not gonna lie, I did consider double dosing your Micro routine in my tank at one point and doubling Tom's Macros (Potassium being the main concern), just didn't go through with it because I wasn't sure how safe it would be for my fish .

Summarized from various water reports.




> Alternatively, you could raise Ca as Roy is suggesting and see what happens. I do see a few textbook Ca deficiency symptoms, but there are other symptoms as well. If more ca is needed this should improve things. If too much Ca is the problem it should make matters worse.
> 
> Either route should give you some insight into which way to go


what else are you seeing?

P: Bottom leaves dropping from Bacopa and Ludwigia Perunesis
K: Pin holes in various plants
Ca: curved tip on leaves showing up in Ludwigia Perunesis (other plants aren't showing these symptoms yet)
B: the caramelized look on the new leaves on Ludwigia Perunesis (bumping it to 0.24 ppm weekly seems to have improved it so far)


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> what's your current Mg and K?


Ca 35-40 from the tap
Mg 4 from tap + 10 ppm from epsom salt. Recently upped from 7 because Sunsets seem to like it better, might be the S

Other weekly totals
NO3 - 30 ppm
PO4 - 3 ppm
K - 32 ppm

Daily micros
Fe - .15 ppm 
Mn - .06 ppm
B - .033 ppm
Zn - .055 ppm
Mo - .00175 ppm
Cu - .001 ppm (there's a dash in the tap otherwise would be 2 or so)
Ni - .0005 ppm



SingAlongWithTsing said:


> I did consider double dosing your Micro routine in my tank at one point and doubling Tom's Macros (Potassium being the main concern),


Probably dont need to raise Cu, Mo, or Ni. 

Id focus on the ones that have an interactive relationship with Ca. Most of these also influence each other, which is another reason it could be a good idea to raise them all at the same time



SingAlongWithTsing said:


> What else are you seeing
> 
> P: Bottom leaves dropping from Bacopa and Ludwigia Perunesis
> K: Pin holes in various plants
> ...


Yeah all that stuff. It's hard to directly relate one symptom to a particular cause because so many symptoms overlap. Especially when there's so much going on at one time


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

burr740 said:


> Ca 35-40 from the tap
> Mg 4 from tap + 10 ppm from epsom salt. Recently upped from 7 because Sunsets seem to like it better, might be the S
> 
> Other weekly totals
> ...


Interesting Burr. Now you guys got me thinking about my Ca/Mg ratio/levels. 

Ca kit on the way. 

Just threw some more Mg into my RO barrels to see what happens.

Will this madness never end????:grin2:


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Such is the life of trying to get EVERY plant happy AND in top shape. I was just looking at my tank the last couple days and just thinking how you guys are so dedicated and how hard it is to truly get every plant healthy. I play with dosages to get one plant happy but the other one gets pissed off and vice versa... 

One day I'll get pissed and throw em all out and just stick with java fern


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

ipkiss said:


> Such is the life of trying to get EVERY plant happy AND in top shape. I was just looking at my tank the last couple days and just thinking how you guys are so dedicated and how hard it is to truly get every plant healthy.


Just remember, there are some plants one's self cannot grow to save your butt.
Sometimes fert adjustment reeks havoc on something else.

Minor tank maintenance and trimming are the highest of importance IMO.
I fall short on these too at times

I have way too many species of plants.
Try to trim 6 species every eve, it don't always happen though.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Ordered some CaSO4 from Nilocg, should be here on Monday or Tuesday.

Maintenance earlier today:


Did some work on the Ludwigia Perunesis grouping today:


Despite the leaves being crappy it was still growing pretty damn tall


stems were about 1/4" thick


Nite shot


also moved old patch of Hygrophila serpyllum to the left with the new ones. the old patch had a good amount of roots growing, I guess it was prioritizing rooting and was sacrificing some leaves while doing that? Idk how plants work biologically lol

Extra trimmings left near the overflow and return


Rugosa was a damn monster too


Decided to move the giant floating of Hydrocotyle down to the substrate, kinda wanted a carpet in that area. dunno if i like it yet. might hunt down some more AR varigated as a back up plan in case I dont like the hydrocotyle carpet


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Dumped about 10 ppm CaSO4 in the general vicinity of the Ludwigia Perunesis, is CaSO4 supposed to be that milky of a color?





close up shots of the Perunesis trimmings. these were at the back right of the tank near the outflow. Maybe my CO2 distribution is garbage cuz I only have 1 outflow pipe on a 6ft tank tank and that 1 outflow pipe is on the right side while the main batch of Perunesis is on the left side. 




added 26 Neon tetras to the main tank yesterday. was worried about possibility of the CO2 killing em but they've all seem pretty active so far.


gonna mix up a new batch of micros tonite or tomorrow morning. I've also used the CaSO4 to double check my Ca Test kit and unfortunately I do have about 80 ppm Ca but the goodness is that the test kit is accurate.

any suggestions/last minute changes?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

I'd probably push B up to 65-70 ppb, it also has an antagonistic relationship with Ca

Ni should still be fine at .5 ppb, no need to raise that

Cu could go to 2 or 2.5 unless you're certain there's some in the tap

The rest look fine


That's a lot of grams for 500 ml of water. How big is the individual dose? You may need to dose more ML so it doesnt take so much in the bottle


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

burr740 said:


> I'd probably push B up to 65-70 ppb, it also has an antagonistic relationship with Ca
> 
> Ni should still be fine at .5 ppb, no need to raise that
> 
> ...


Kinda chicken with pushing B to 65-70 ppb tbh, idk if that high of B will interfere with K. Guess I can make a separate bottle of B just in case.

have about 0.75 ppm Cu in the tap. could be 0.6 ppm like the water report says though





> That's a lot of grams for 500 ml of water. How big is the individual dose? You may need to dose more ML so it doesnt take so much in the bottle


5 mL per dose


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

How many total gallons are you dosing for? (just curious) All that might work but I think you're gonna need bigger doses, like 10 or 20 ml

Damn that's a lot of Cu!! I wouldnt be dosing any more with that level...not that an extra ppb or two is gonna matter lol

K is more likely to interfere with B, not the other way around. Notice on that circular diagram the arrows point one way or the other, sometimes both.

The arrows indicate which nutrient is doing what. B doesnt interfere with anything much really. And it is particularly susceptible to high Ca levels

https://www.pthorticulture.com/en/training-center/role-of-boron-in-plant-culture/


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

burr740 said:


> How many total gallons are you dosing for? (just curious) All that might work but I think you're gonna need bigger doses, like 10 or 20 ml
> 
> Damn that's a lot of Cu!! I wouldnt be dosing any more with that level...not that an extra ppb or two is gonna matter lol
> 
> ...


used an estimate of 160 gallons of water. 

oof i think i know where i screwed up all these months.

[STRIKE]So the sump is 55 gallons but I only fill up to about 29 gallons.
Water height in the main tank is about 19", other inner tank dimensions 72" x 17.25", roughly 102 gallons 

water in the reactor 4" x 20" reactor should be about 1.08 gallons.

all of that should be 132.08 gallons

the substrate takes up about 72" x 17.25" x 2", roughly 10.75 gallons (do we count this? no right since its technically displacing water?)
havent mathed out how much my driftwood and equipment in the sump displaces
[/STRIKE]

edit: mathed it out


this is what Cu looks like at the end of the week, looks to be about 0.125 ppm


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

By our standards there's quite a long way between .25 ppm and zero.

What does a pic of the empty vial look like, or with just water in it? The vial itself could be coloring it that much.

Tough guess.

Either way I seriously doubt you need to add more. I went for 6 months with no additional Cu in mine. Now it's been a few months at .001 and then .0015. Cant tell a difference either way


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

hm tested Copper in my tap again. read lower than the other day. I guess my readings change depending on how long I flush out the hose for.

Tap on left, Distilled on the right









old batch getting stored away with everything fert related. It's one of those air tight and moisture resistant totes from target.


anyone else ever have these weird chunks when mixing ferts? this formed after adding Zinc into a solution of Fe, Mn, and B. the chunks disappear/dissolve after a few minutes depending on their size.



keeping thee 0.001 ppm Cu dose in case my tap's Cu fluctuates


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## OreoP (Aug 12, 2016)

i mixed my first batch yesterday. Weighed the individual compounds and mixed the powders prior to dumping them into the water filled dosing bottle (800ml water + 100ml vinegar).

Powders dissolved almost immediately upon shaking the bottle - no lumps seen. This morning no signs of any solids in the bottle.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

OreoP said:


> i mixed my first batch yesterday. Weighed the individual compounds and mixed the powders prior to dumping them into the water filled dosing bottle (800ml water + 100ml vinegar).
> 
> Powders dissolved almost immediately upon shaking the bottle - no lumps seen. This morning no signs of any solids in the bottle.


yeah i measure em individually too. I usually fill up the bottle to about 350ml distilled water and then add about 5ml vinegar, add ferts, and then finally add the rest of the water til i hit the 500ml. maybe i'm not using enough vinegar?

Measure out Fe, dump. Measure out Mn, dump. Etc.

H3BO3 always forms bubbles for me but they pop and dissolve, Zinc forms the chunks and then dissolves. After a couple of hours there's nothing solid.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Damn! LOL. Ive never seen anything like that. What kind of Zn do you have exactly?

When mine is first mixed there are a few particles at the bottom that dont dissolve immediately. But within an hour or two its crystal clear and stays that way.

I use distilled water and add probably 7 ml of vinegar per 500 ml. Whatever the cap on the vinegar bottle is, it appears to be a little bigger than 5 ml caps.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

burr740 said:


> Damn! LOL. Ive never seen anything like that. What kind of Zn do you have exactly?
> 
> When mine is first mixed there are a few particles at the bottom that dont dissolve immediately. But within an hour or two its crystal clear and stays that way.
> 
> I use distilled water and add probably 7 ml of vinegar per 500 ml. Whatever the cap on the vinegar bottle is, it appears to be a little bigger than 5 ml caps.


yeah i never had that big of a chunk before LOL, previously the biggest chunks i had were a lil bit bigger than a 1/4"


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Yeah that's the right stuff


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Not sure if the 10 ppm Calcium is helping much. Dunno if i should worry about the color, they get redder the closer they get to the light at least.








maybe some of these stems are just too far gone. In the past I've only had about 50% success rate with L. perunesis.

triple checked the calcium in the tap with Edward's method


Edward said:


> API Ca test kit can detect 0, 5, 10, 15, 20, … ppm Ca.
> 
> Get 20 ml of aquarium water, add 5 drops of #1 solution and mix.
> Start adding 1 drop of #2 solution and mix and watch for colour change from pink to blue. Each drop of #2 solution equals to 5 ppm Ca.


16 drops * 5 ppm = 80 ppm tap
18 drops * 5 ppm = 90 ppm tank

and also with immortal1's method


Immortal1 said:


> For what its worth, API does have a Ca test kit. The down side is it has a resolution of 20ppm which does not work well for my needs. What I did was double the sample volume from 5ml to 10ml. Instead of 10 drops of bottle 1, I add 20 drops. Now each drop of bottle #2 yields 10ppm of Ca.


8 drops * 10 ppm = 80 ppm tap
9 drops * 10 ppm = 90 ppm tank

readings above we're taking today, probably about an hour ago

============

so timeline of events of the past few days:
May 14, 2018: added 10 ppm CaSO4
May 18, 2018: 50% water change, tap 80 ppm Ca
May 23, 2018: added 5 ppm CaSO4, tank read 90 ppm Ca

note:
the tank has always been 80 ppm Ca before and after water changes. and has also been 80 ppm before dosing any addition Ca.

what I probably need to do:
find a Freshwater Potassium test kit to test my tap. Potassium and Calcium are agnostic and I highly doubt any amount of Manganese were dosing can affect Calcium.

what I should test:
Lean dosing Macros (weekly 5 ppm NO3, 5 ppm PO4 16 ppm K). End of the week Macros always read out as 60 ppm NO3 and recently PO4 has been reading above 8 ppm. Might end up killing most of the plants in the tank though if I did that, might give me an excuse to rescape though


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

This is the problem with trying to diagnose according to a symptom. While Roy is absolutely correct, that does look like a Ca deficiency, it also looks like a dozen other possibilities, including pretty much any immobile nutrient. Then there's the whole "hole" situation going on.

So lets assume the tap has 80 ppm of Ca, which seems like a safe assumption at this point based upon all your checking

Since Ca is abnormally high and you cant change it, you're gonna have to dose around it. In other words dose everything else (within reason) based on having 80 ppm of Ca.

Ca has an antagonistic relationship with several nutrients. 

Let's look at our trusty little chart again










K, Mg, P, Fe, Mn, B and Zn are all possibilities

The first three are mobile nutrients which means they are less likely to affect new growth, which is what you're currently dealing with for the most part. 

Although Ive seen first hand low K can stunt tops, often before the classic pinhole signs appear. So let's add that to the list of things to increase.

Personally I find having K on the same levels of Ca and NO3 works best. But since you really dont need 80 ppm, I'd just bump it up closer to whatever NO3 is, maybe not 60, something like 40-45. 

Fe, Mn and B are all immobile (likely to affect new growth). Zn is immobile to somewhat mobile depending on where you look. It belongs on the list too.

P is already high. I'd leave it at that and keep an eye on the levels in case they drop when the uptake of everything else is optimized. NO3 levels might drop as well

Mg, based on Ca needs to be 15-20 ppm at least. 

Fe, Mn, B and Zn I'd raise all these 50%, or 25% at least.

Fe should be pretty well insulated due to the strong chelate. Mn is not. So ratio-wise Mn may need increasing beyond the 2:1 Fe ratio. After all it's not the ratio in the dosing bottle that matters. What happens in the water column dictates the ratio


This is just some food for thought and how I'd go about trying to solve your issues. 

It's not lack of Ca (lol)

I doubt reducing macros will bear any fruit, especially not K. But of course you can try it and see.

Im pretty sure you are dealing with induced deficiencies, which can be corrected once you know what's responsible for inducing them. Either by reducing one thing or raising another. 

And since you cant change Ca levels...


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

burr740 said:


> This is the problem with trying to diagnose according to a symptom. While Roy is absolutely correct, that does look like a Ca deficiency, it also looks like a dozen other possibilities, including pretty much any immobile nutrient. Then there's the whole "hole" situation going on.
> 
> So lets assume the tap has 80 ppm of Ca, which seems like a safe assumption at this point based upon all your checking
> 
> ...


this is the current routine, only been a week with it though. was throwing out ideas earlier.


N03 30ppm per week (haven't changed this in 5ever)
PO4 7.5ppm per week (very recent bump from 5ppm)
K 30 ppm per week (30ppm up til March 2018 when I bumped it to 40 ppm and now i dropped it back to 30 mid May)

oh I'm dumb, I read that chart wrong and thought Potassium can inhibit Calcium uptake. [STRIKE]I should drop my Phosphate down to 3 ppm and see what happens. Already kinda know what happens at 5 ppm.[/STRIKE]



> Although Ive seen first hand low K can stunt tops, often before the classic pinhole signs appear. So let's add that to the list of things to increase.
> 
> Personally I find having K on the same levels of Ca and NO3 works best. But since you really dont need 80 ppm, I'd just bump it up closer to whatever NO3 is, maybe not 60, something like 40-45.


I had a weird stunted top and leaf shedding problem with Limnophila Aromatica Mini when I bumped K to 40 ppm per week and the curling from Perunesis. every other plant didn't seem to care.



> It's not lack of Ca (lol)


oh yeah i definitely agree with this.



> I doubt reducing macros will bear any fruit, especially not K. But of course you can try it and see.


yeah the risk might be higher than the reward lol. those tanks that lean dose are usually the ones with a soil based substrate already.



> Im pretty sure you are dealing with induced deficiencies, which can be corrected once you know what's responsible for inducing them. Either by reducing one thing or raising another.


I think the only thing I haven't tried to do since the creation of this set up is going below 30 ppm NO3 per week, might be worth a shot. The again my fish load isnt very high.



> And since you cant change Ca levels...


not gonna lie, if I had a smaller tank I'd be all over RO water lol


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> I think the only thing I haven't tried to do since the creation of this set up is going below 30 ppm NO3 per week, might be worth a shot.l


You havent tried raising Mn B and Zn like Ive been telling you to do.  Double those for a week and see what happens, or a 50% increase. Keep Fe around 2 ppm per week

You may not need those levels long term, but if one or more of those is running short you'll see a rapid improvement and know you're on the right track.

If nothing happens or things get worse then you can move on to something else.

This is what you just did with Ca, tried it, nothing good happened, moving on to something else.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

burr740 said:


> You havent tried raising Mn B and Zn like Ive been telling you to do.  Double those for a week and see what happens, or a 50% increase. Keep Fe around 2 ppm per week
> 
> You may not need those levels long term, but if one or more of those is running short you'll see a rapid improvement and know you're on the right track.
> 
> ...


you meant from this post right?


burr740 said:


> Raising K could've brought about another shortage. It doesnt seem reasonable to me that 40 ppm K, up from 30, is interfering with 80 ppm Ca, or even 35-40 (which is about where mine is)
> 
> This tank has always had some weird issues, deficiency symptoms that on paper at least shouldnt be there based on the ppms youre dosing.
> 
> ...


I did bump the Mn and Zn though. Haven't tried your suggestion of bumping B 0.5 ppm to K to 60 ppm weekly yet though. Guess I can try B this week.

Cu on the chart for the V20B column should be "0.006 ~ 0.606"


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Had a BGA/Cyano breakout, guess I disturbed the substrate too much the other day when i was fixing some things. Plants hitting the water surface and folding didnt help either, blocked off way too much flow.

Moved the Jebao PP-8 from the left back corner to the right front corner. In theory it should help spread CO2 more thoroughly. 


Using my old rattling Maxi-Jet 900 in the back right corner for now. While it's there I might as well use the venturi to power my overflow box.
Will be looking for a quieter powerhead, might turn it into an internal filter too. There's a lot of detritus that forms behind the L. Perunesis, hopefully a DIY internal filter will be enough.


Random Shot. Plants might look ok from far away but if you're up close some of look wonky.

and yes that's the Serpyllum on the left corner, friggin thing is a growing like a weed now lol.

Oh and the hole in leaf problem died down quite a bit when the Micros were bumped to V20B. Bumped up B to 0.085 daily (0.065 from main batch, 0.02 in another bottle), about 0.51ppm weekly. Hopefully that fixes the Perunesis


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Nothing like the feeling you get when things have been sucking for a while then all of a sudden you push the right button and growth explodes!


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Trimmed the plants on the left side yesterday:

Before:

After:


Ludwigia Perunesis leaves are looking better. Not sure if lowering Nitrates from 30 ppm to 21 ppm per week and P from 7.5 ppm to 3 ppm per week helped. Was testing these numbers the past 2 weeks. Was operating under the assumption that P might have been causing some Ca inhibition (Mulder's chart). Lowering the Nitrate was just curiosity. 
As for the test with adding the additional 4 ppm of Mg to my tap's 16 ppm: I've not L. Perunesis leave tips will hook a bit the day after adding the 4 ppm Mg and later slowly unhook through out the week. I guess I should leave Mg out and see what happens. 


Ludwigia Sp Red: it's finally recovering after like 6+ months being in the tank. It started recovering after bumping my Micros.


Same stem about a week later from the above pic, not sure if the green top is from being lowered from 12" from the surface to about 20~21"


Limnophila Hippuroides were getting a lil pale lowering Nitrates from 30 ppm to 21 ppm per week. Bumping Nitrates to 24 ppm per week for the next 2 weeks.


Dunno if the improved coloration on the AR Mini is from the lowered Nitrates. I should probably trim off those old leaves before they become a problem.


Currently we're on V20D as of June 8th, 2018


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## acino (Nov 14, 2017)

0.606 ppm Cu weekly? Is that number correct?


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

acino said:


> 0.606 ppm Cu weekly? Is that number correct?


whoops, dosing form ferts should be 0.006 ppm Cu, my tap reads out as 0.6 ppm Cu sometimes


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Thursday update instead of a Friday update

Will be testing out the JBL Proflora Direct for the next few weeks, finished the install tuesday nite. most settings are still the same except for the working pressure which I bumped up to 22 from 20 PSI. JBL recommended 1 - 1.5 bar for the working pressure, about 14.5 ~ 21.75 PSI. atomizer is in the sump just in case it somehow cracks/explodes, at least i wouldn't flood the floor in that scenario.


Velcro'd the 0-50 dwyer to the 30-200 because I didnt feel like completely swapping them, might end up going back to the cerges one day. 


Injection rate before going into the atomizer was 100 cc/min, atomizer reduced it to 25~27 cc/min
for comparison: Injection rate before going into the old 4" x 20" cerges reactor was 100 cc/min, reactor reduced it to 80 cc/min

and yes I did leave the old cerges set up in the sump just in case the JBL doesnt work out. the main thing bugging me right now is that I can't run my co2 during maintenance unless i keep the old cerges there. logic behind running co2 into the sump during maintenance was try to keep the difference between co2 levels as small as possible.





pH drops are the same as cerges according to the pH pen, so probably extremely minimal CO2 loss

the perunesis seems to like it. only time I've seen it pearl. every other plant was already pearling with the cerges.


i guess it's time to trim the hygrophila serpyllum, it's about 2.5"~3" tall now lol


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Not much to report in these past 3? weeks

Perunesis was looking better until I trim and replanted it around 2 weeks ago

Before trim:


Post trim:


and yeah it's doing that weird caramelize thing again. makes me wonder if it's a light related problem instead of fert because the only thing that changed was the plant height between those 2 photos.

I might have to lower my Zinc or Mn due to how pale the Limno and Mermaidweed look. I might end up having to lower my Fe too, Water Report says there might be up to 0.8 Fe in the tap, need to get a test kit to confirm.

Honestly I've been so focused on the Perunesis I kind of forgot about the other plants in the general vicinity. 

Still not much to say about the JBL Proflora atomizer vs the modified Cerges.

still using V20D as of today


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Yeah try dropping Mn to around 5:1 - 4:1 Fe ratio.

Zn I havent seen a concrete difference with higher or lower levels, nothing I can be sure is directly related to Zn, but it shouldnt hurt to drop it down closer to B levels

.8 Fe in the tap may or may not be an issue. The likelyhood its in an available state to affect plants I would think is slim

Im running the JBL on the farm 75. Getting a lot of near invisible mist and also a lot of large bubbles. I think because the regulator has non adjustable working pressure preset to like 40-45 psi. Which is higher than the 20 (I think?) JBL recommends.

Im gonna put the reactor back on and run both. Hopefully that'll kill the big bubbles but still let some mist through.

Plant growth-wise, as you said, I havent seen any difference, including the 50 with strong pure mist from the Up Aqua


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

*Friday Update*

Moved around some plant on the right side.
-Moved the Dwarf Lobelia Cardinalis, Cories and Barbs kept knocking them and I got sick of replanting
-Trimmed Bacopa and thinned it out to make room for the Dwarf Lobelia Cardinalis
-Moved Leopard Val to the back, might move it back to the front later on
-Fish are enjoying their new "cave'


Left side:
-Thinned out the Bacopa
-Tied some Hydrocotyle Tripartia Japan to some plastic mesh and pvc pipe, shaped to a triangle and slapped it on the left and back of the tank
-Not sure if I like it yet, gonna wait til it grows out a bit more



New fert schedule, been using V20E now for the past 4 or 5 days.
-The tops of the Limnophila aren't as pale anymore, getting some color back.

V20B~V20D should be 0.006 Cu, the other 0.6 was under the assumption that my tap has Cu



Things to do:
-Find some black plastic coroplast, there's some areas of the tank that might look good with white sand but I need to divide it from the BDBS
-Get a Fe2 test kit, might have 0.8 PPM Fe in tap. city's updated water ccr didn't specify what type of iron is in the tap though.
-Mess around with the JBL Proflora. Not sure if something's up with it because im not hitting my 1.5~1.6 pH drop, been hitting 1.4~1.5. There are no leaks. My current theory is just the weather being 100F and causing CO2 mist bubbles to hit the surface through convection.
-Changing some stuff in the sump again, current set up is a bit annoying to clean due to the big glass brace in the center of the sump.
-May switch out my eheim jager 300 watt for 2 150s to fit the sump adjustments.
-May bump PO4 to 5ppm weekly total in about a 2~4 weeks depending on plant growth.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

*July 20th update*
Not much to update and didn't really have time to get pics today
-Ripped out all the Javafern and Windelov Java Fern and holy hell my substrate got covered in like at least 1/8" of detritus. As soon as I dunked some of the ferns in some buckets the buckets turned brown immediately. Ripped all of it out mainly because it gets clogged by detritus so easily and blocks some flow. Idk if this was the right move tbh.
Java fern and windelov are sitting my 150 Gallon tote for now

(Lava rock 1st layer, Nature's Care Organic Potting Mix 2nd Layer, Quickrete? Sand 3rd layer)
-Lost my oldest and biggest Dension Barb, dude maxed out at 4.5~5." Hoping he died from old age, couldnt find any external wounds or anything indicating a disease. 
-Ordered some Anubias nana petite which should be here by next tuesday, it's going up on the driftwood. Been testing a small batch up near the 300+ PAR area for the past few months and it seemed fine.

Shot of the left side before the fern rip out
both channels: 40% channel A, 60% channel B

40% channel A


Moving on to V20F


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

I underestimated how much anubias nana petitie I need for this mini rescape

and yes there's some hygrophila serpyllum on the wood, wanted to compare how it would look vs the anubias. I had serpyllum crawl across some Java fern in the 300+ PAR areas before the rescape. I highly doubt theyll attach too wood naturally







6 of those pots you see everywhere. $40 w/ free shipping before taxes, not sure if I got screwed tbh lol


really wondering which is the true anubias nana petite. on the left is some I've got from a member here a very long time ago, on the right is the recent ebay purchase


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Perunesis/glandulosa


colors are doing good, not happy with the length between internodes though, have to figure out why bga keeps creeping up on it too. think the bga might be from overcrowding or me tearing up the tank constantly lately.


rearranged some stuff, spaced out some of the groups better


not too sure about the Hygrophila Siamensis placement yet




not too sure about the Leopard val placement either, might end up moving it between t he Perunesis and Hippuroides


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## jbvamos (Mar 18, 2018)

How tall does the 53b get? I was thinking about getting some


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Tank was at 88F~90F most of yesterday. Fish room is insulated but no AC in there 
Lost 4 Neon Tetras, a Dension Barb, and a Panda Cory Cat so far. This heatwave is really screwing me over 



jbvamos said:


> How tall does the 53b get? I was thinking about getting some


dont have experience with the plant yet, barely got it a week ago and the biggest one in there was 10"

according to tropic it can be up to 15" tall though.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

really hating this heatwave
Fish room is 93F but the tank is 88F even with fans


AC Infinity MULTIFAN S7-P, think the fans are 65 CFM each


My Jebao PP-8 Wavemaker broke, the controller still works though. basically when i pluge the pump back into the controller the controller shuts off lol.

Also switched to a vertical spray bar, I didnt wanna lose the surface agitation so I used a Cross at the top. each of the 10 holes is about 3/16"
It should give more flow to about halfway down the tank.
Will eventually order some black pvc parts to replace it.



got the idea from Filipe Oliveira





If I went back to the old set up with 3/4" pipe exiting into a 1" elbow i think i would need to add a gyre pump to get the same effect.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

I'm surprised you are not seeing more problems.

When my tank just gets a few degrees warmer, I notice some unhappy plants. 

Curious how this goes if the heatwave continues. That's a big parameter change.

Good luck, I am hoping all goes well.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Greggz said:


> I'm surprised you are not seeing more problems.
> 
> When my tank just gets a few degrees warmer, I notice some unhappy plants.
> 
> ...


I have a lot of problems that I didn't mention lol. I'm hoping they're all heat related because I haven't touch my fert regime yet.

I have a bunch of green dust algae popping up on the glass and some bga too, bga could be from rescaping though.

My buce lost some of their blue color, penthorum sedoides leaves are hooking down, ar mini shrunk, and ar varigated wont fully open their leaves lol. 

Bacopa, Hydrocotyle japan, ludwigia repens, limnophila hippuroides, mini limnophilia aromatica, leopard val, and the anubias don't seem to care.

Casualties so far:
1 Denison Barb
1 Panda Cory Cat
14 or 15 Neon Tetras

Survivors:
5 Denison Barb
2 or 3 Panda Cory Cat
1 Julii Cory Cat
2 Otocinclus
2 or 3 Neon Tetras
1 Amano Shrimp
1 Electric Blue Acara
a bunch of snails

Knocking out half a wall to install some windows on the weekend, i'm hoping the airflow is good enough to keep temps down. have to temporary move the 180 gallon from that wall though


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Changed out the cross shape return line for the 1" 90* outflow and a 3/4" vertical spray bar.




Not much change, bumped NO3 Back to 30 ppm per week (10 from tap, 20 from dry ferts). BGA on the L.Perunesis/Glandulosa almost disappeared over nite. It's growing weird again after a couple of weeks of good growth (mostly flat leaves.)

I did increase the strength of my lights by about 10 PAR (165 to 175) when I upped the blue channel (blue light shortens the length between the internodes iirc), so that might be a cause of the weird growth. There's windows in the fish room now but I don't think enough natural light gets in to affect my tank.

Most of the bucephalandra are shooting out new leaves again, after water temps went down. Coulnt get a good picture of this though.

Limnophila Aromatica Mini bounced back from tiny nubs when I switched from 3 ppm PO4 to 5ppm a couple of weeks ago. Ludwigia Nantans (is this another name for red mini?) is still alive


Limnophila Aromatica and Hippuroides after being trimmed 25? days ago


Mermaid weed went from spiney to fuller looking leaves, not sure if that's due to the PO4 or cooler water temp (went from 88~92F to 80~82F)


No pin holes on the new grow of the Hygrophila Siamensis


Something funky going on with AR Varigated, been that way for a couple of weeks too



AR Mini and Lobelia Cardinalis mini are still growing weird too


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Decided to hang the fans after almost knocking one of em into the tank. call me thanos because this looks perfectly balanced.


Bumping up Manganese and Magnesium this batch of ferts



bumping Magnesium after some people on facebook said it helps with GDA on glass. it might also help with the AR Varigated



> OLDER LEAVES CHLOROTIC, usually necrotic in late stages. CHLOROSIS ALONG LEAF MARGINS EXTENDING BETWEEN VEINS PRODUCES A "Christmas tree" PATTERN. *Veins normal green. Leaf margins may curl downward or upward with puckering effect.* Necrosis may suddenly occur between veins. POTASSIUM or CALCIUM EXCESS can inhibit uptake of magnesium... MAGNESIUM DEFICIENCY


possible Manganese deficiency






> b. Interveinal Chlorosis With Smallest Veins Remaining GREEN producing a
> checkered or finely netted effect. *Grey or tan necrotic spots usually develop in chlorotic areas*; the dead spots of tissue may drop out of the leaf giving a ragged appearance. Poor bloom -both size and color. POTASSIUM EXCESS can inhibit uptake of manganese... MANGANESE DEFICIENCY


http://horticulture.oregonstate.edu/system/files/onn130601.pdf



> Manganese deficiency symptoms, which often look like those of iron deficiency, appear as interveinal chlorosis (yellow leaves with green veins) on the young leaves, and *sometimes tan, sunken spots that appear in the chlorotic areas between the veins*.


https://www.pthorticulture.com/en/training-center/role-of-manganese-in-plant-culture/

Leopard Val going nuts in the tank, think it's about 3 ft long now. good thing it became a favorite too other wise i think i would of moved it into the pond


Idk what's up with Perunesis


AR Mini doign better every week so far


Not sure where I'm going with this scape
pre trim, pics might be from last week



trimmed, probably gonna fill in that gap on the left with more perunesis


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Ripped out all my timers and extra surge protectors and replaced em all with a Tonbox Smart Surge Protector


Using the Smart Life app by Tuya


Destroyed the left side of the tank and moved some driftwood around


and 8hrs later
plannning to cover most of the tops of the driftwood with anubias nana petite and let the roots hang down. will probably take awhile to find a huge amount for a decent price


thinking I'm gonna start keeping perunesis shorter


not too sure about Leopard Val and Mermaid weed combo yet


need to figure out what new plant i want for this slot. I know i want something that can be shaded and something that's easy for the barbs to swim through because the like hanging out at that spot in the tank when they're not swimming in the current.


will probably ready to be trimmed to shape next week. originally i wanted the Leopard val here but it didnt flow the way i wanted to because of the spray bars.


next week i might move the wood a bit to be more centered. would need to cut off about 4" on the right piece


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

pre-trim


didn't trim too much this week, waiting to grow out some of that Limnophila a bit more. strongly considering replacing the right most batch of l. repens for something else.






been getting BGA on the top most leaves of the l. repens the past week. pretty sure it's not nitrate related, it's probably from uprooting a bunch of stuff last week, or might be as simple as too much light.


pretty sure this an _*induced*_ K deficiency, Hygrophila Siamensis is the only one showing it. Might have caused it when I either bumped up the NO3 to 30 ppm (from ferts) or when I bumped Mg from 16 to 20 ppm.


lobelia cardinalis mini. I think it finally adjusted to my water


not sure if the anubias/buce mix is staying here


l. nantans started crapping out after either I bumped NO3 to 30 ppm from ferts or from 5 ppm PO4. 


l. perunesis. 5/10 stems are showing Boron? deficiency. Might be from the increased NO3.

same stem from 2 weeks ago

not too sure if it's co2 related because I know I get enough flow to hit the left side of the tank





the other 9 stems


limnophila hippuroides. a bunch of my limno aromatica and hippuroides got mixed up during the rescape, I think I'm gonna just grow em out and see which is which. 


buce coloring up again


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Can never get a good shot when both channels of light are on, everything looks paler in the pic than it actually is



morning pre-trim



still need more anubias in some spots of the driftwood




random nite shots







got around to kind of calibrating my NO3 test kit, water report said 17.64 ppm was average but I'm closer to 8-ish?


calibrated my spoons too just incase


applied all that to the current routine

50% of the Perunesis/Glandulosa is still acting up, Ludwigia Nantans / Super Red is starting to act up, AR Varigated still crappy, regular AR Mini is shrinking, and I haven't seen Hygrophila Serphyllum grow since moving to the front right of the tank.
Dropping to weekly NO3 total of 30 ppm instead of 30 ppm from ferts + w/e was in tap. Might help the faux B deficiency in the Ludwigias, faux K deficiency in the Hygrophila Siamensis, and faux Mg in AR Varigated.
Hygrophila Serphyllum might just need more light.
The AR Minis I have no idea what's going on there.

decided to make this after seeing another user do it Greggz thread


wanted to add Vin Kutty's recent experiment to the list but idk what I would list it under
tom's tank that was used for reference https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...-like-ditched-dutch-style-new-pics-137-a.html
dennis' tank https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...-3ft-high-tech-low-tech-nano-experiments.html
Ghanzanfor Ghori's (under the assumption he still uses 13:1.5:13 macros but scaled up) https://youtu.be/6Mr9c6o0jNM?t=7m9s


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Nice post. 

I always enjoy seeing your tank. It's a unique presentation, and has a style all it's own....which I like.

Interesting to see you having Anubias right next to stems. I could never do it. With enough light to keep the stems happy, anubias would be algae covered in no time. 

In looking at your chart, you go from 164 PAR to 53 at the edges. Wow that is a WIDE range over a tank. I can see you must really have to manage placement of plants to see what levels they like best and where they thrive.

And interesting calibrating the spoons. All in all looks pretty close to references you can find on line. Here are a few from a site I use. Close enough for our purposes I suppose. Still interesting Rotala Butterfly is way off on a few.

KNO3: 5.2g/tsp
KH2PO4: 5.6g/tsp
K2SO4: 6.4g/tsp
MgSo4.7H2O: 5.1g/tsp

The comparison sheet is very interesting too. I've been making notes on others dosing for quite some time, but never put it together like that. Very, very interesting and something we might need to expand on.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Great post @SingAlongWithTsing - curious about 1 thing, when you were doing par readings with the Seneye, were you keeping the "eye" pointed directly at the light when you made the corner readings or pointed straight up? With my Seneye I find it makes a difference if I don't point it right at the light. Not sure why, but....

Also, in your post 181, picture 4 you stated "pretty sure this an induced K deficiency, Hygrophila Siamensis is the only one showing it. Might have caused it when I either bumped up the NO3 to 30 ppm (from ferts) or when I bumped Mg from 16 to 20 ppm." Interesting, as I have noticed similar issues with my Siamensis. Lately I have been dosing a bit less K and a bit more NO3 - wonder if I didn't make things worse for me?


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Greggz said:


> Nice post.
> 
> I always enjoy seeing your tank. It's a unique presentation, and has a style all it's own....which I like.


thanks:grin2:



> Interesting to see you having Anubias right next to stems. I could never do it. With enough light to keep the stems happy, anubias would be algae covered in no time.


It's a bit of a gamble but I think I might be able to pull it off. Only thing I know for sure I have to worry about is pissing off the BGA in the substrate because the last time I did that it got all over the Ludwigia repens.



> In looking at your chart, you go from 164 PAR to 53 at the edges. Wow that is a WIDE range over a tank. I can see you must really have to manage placement of plants to see what levels they like best and where they thrive.


If I ever upgrade tanks I'm pretty sure I'm gonna switch over to T5 units except I'll be using LED retrofit tubes for that reason. Yeah you can still grow stuff with 53 PAR but some plants look better at higher PAR levels.



> And interesting calibrating the spoons. All in all looks pretty close to references you can find on line. Here are a few from a site I use. Close enough for our purposes I suppose. Still interesting Rotala Butterfly is way off on a few.
> 
> KNO3: 5.2g/tsp
> KH2PO4: 5.6g/tsp
> ...


I might have to double check my measurements with those ones lol, I'm too ocd about accuracy.

Bump:


Immortal1 said:


> Great post @SingAlongWithTsing - curious about 1 thing, when you were doing par readings with the Seneye, were you keeping the "eye" pointed directly at the light when you made the corner readings or pointed straight up? With my Seneye I find it makes a difference if I don't point it right at the light. Not sure why, but....


I had the sensor facing straight up. 



> Also, in your post 181, picture 4 you stated "pretty sure this an induced K deficiency, Hygrophila Siamensis is the only one showing it. Might have caused it when I either bumped up the NO3 to 30 ppm (from ferts) or when I bumped Mg from 16 to 20 ppm." Interesting, as I have noticed similar issues with my Siamensis. Lately I have been dosing a bit less K and a bit more NO3 - wonder if I didn't make things worse for me?


Won't know til we try right lol? I'm really hoping it's just a macro issue because tweaking micros would require making a new batch at this point in my case at least.


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Agreed @singalongWithSing - "Won't know til we try right lol? I'm really hoping it's just a macro issue because tweaking micros would require making a new batch at this point in my case at least."
I'm also thinking macros, or more correctly, macro interactions. I am somewhat in the same boat as you - a lot of Ca in the tap water. at one point my tank was up to 70ppm calcium. I was trying to adjust the magnesium levels to keep a 3:1 ratio but honestly it seemed to have little effect. Unlike low dosing NO3 which had a very noticeable effect. Going to have to print out some of your data and do some comparisons to what I have - maybe I will learn something.


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> Ghanzanfor Ghori's (under the assumption he still uses 13:1.5:13 macros but scaled up) https://youtu.be/6Mr9c6o0jNM?t=7m9s


Thought I would see Ghazanfar today.
Was going to ask about ferts but he didn't attend meeting.
Met Karen Randall though and was able to buy her recent book.
Small world it is!


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

pics from last friday





this morning i found a couple of leaves falling off from one rhizome of the anubias. Really hoping I'm not dealing with anubias rot again. I might end up losing $200 worth of anubias nana petite if it infected the rest of the tank. Coated an x-acto knife with hydrogen peroxide and sliced what I think I could save. Tomorrow morning I'll set up a 10g quarantine, dump some osmocote, sand, and toss in the bits and wait a couple of months.

the exposed bit smelled like vomit if anyone's curious.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

kept finding leaves floating around today, so far 2 pots worth of anubias is suspected to be infected. the clump near the bottom of the picture was an older clump from like a month ago.

"how were you able to identify which rinzomes might be affected with rot?" I just followed my snails and w/e leaves looked loose. H202 Coated x-acto knife and used some super glue to seal off any exposed ends.


right now the best case scenario would be:
a) I'm misidentifying symptoms and this was a transport issue. Doubt it since the seller is 15 mins away.
b) Tied some of the anubias too tight to the wood via twist ties. 50/50 on this since some were just placed on the wood and held down via friction.
c) These were emersed grown and now they're converting. It would explain leaves dropping but wouldn't explain the vomit smell and pussing from the rhizome though. And yes pussing, imagine if you we're squeezing a zit except it oozes green instead.

in hindsight I should of either:
a) quarantine every damn anubias
b) spent the $200 on buce instead
c) got weeping moss instead


----------



## FreshPuff (Oct 31, 2011)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> c) These were emersed grown and now they're converting. It would explain leaves dropping but wouldn't explain the vomit smell and pussing from the rhizome though. And yes pussing, imagine if you we're squeezing a zit except it oozes green instead.


...And at that moment FreshPuff's breakfast was over as he read Tsing's most recent post.:laugh2:

Aside from the Anubias issue, your tank keeps looking better and better!:thumbsup:


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

cup is what I salvaged out of the tank this morning, bottom pile of leaves is what fell apart


video for the curious, couldnt get the camera to focus on the close up but I think you guys get the idea of how weak and mushy the rhizome gets





total of what was salvageable from the past couple of days




FreshPuff said:


> ...And at that moment FreshPuff's breakfast was over as he read Tsing's most recent post.:laugh2:


it smells worst than it sounds, trust me lol. the oozing is w/e but the smell, holy hell you'll never forget it



> Aside from the Anubias issue, your tank keeps looking better and better!:thumbsup:


thanks


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Shots from last nite. lot more green dust algae than usual, might be from the windows.




morning shot before maintenace


the holes came back. dunno if some undissolved KNO3 "burned" the holes. A week ago the holes weren't there.
maybe a snail ate through em? idk





still using this routine


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

RIP 21 pots of Anubias nana petite. I have 3 "healthy" clumps left in the main tank. W/e bits left are all in the quarantine tank now. Branches look so empty






and yeah the quarantine tank is outside, they were pearling this afternoon. That's a good sign I guess.


----------



## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Really sorry to hear that.

That much Anubias takes a long time to cultivate.

Almost like a virus wiped them out.

Well, I guess now is a good time to try out that 300 PAR you were talking about!!:wink2:


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

welp ADA's NDA has been lifted

IAPLC 2018 






//Fauna
Sahyadria denisonii
Paracheirodon innesi

//Substrate
Black Diamond Blasting Sand

//Tank Dimensions
72.5" x 18.5" x 24.5"

//Filter
CPR CS102 Overflow Box
Jebao DCP-8000
55 Gallon Vision Sump
200 Micron Filter Sock
Plastic Pot Scrubbers

//Light
3x SBReef Freshwater LED, 8 hrs per day.

//CO2
100 cc/min, 8hrs per day.

//Flora:
1. Bacopa Caroliniana
2. Bucephalandra Theia Blue
3. Hygrophila Serpyllum
4. Proserpinaca Palustris
5. Ludwigia Glandulosa 
6. Penthorum Sedoides
7. Limnophila Aromatica Hippuroides
8. Limnophila Aromatica
9. Limnophila Rugosa
10. Limnophila Aromatica Mini
11. Bucephalandra Arrogant Blue
12. Ludwigia Repens
13. Staurogyne Repens
14. Anubias MIcro?
15. Windelov Java Fern
16. Java Fern
17. Anubias Golden
18. Alternanthera Reineckii Varigated
19. Lobelia Cardinalis Dwarf
20. Alternanthera Reineckii Mini
21. Hydrocotyle Tripartita Japan
22. Vallisneria Spiralis Leopard


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

That's a great result! To place at all is quite an accomplishment. Congratulations!

I think the big green mass is a little overpowering, but it also kinda makes the look. The darkness underneath adds a lot of mystery, like there's something deep and unknown going on there.

Its even more impressive considering all the challenges you faced during the last few months. Really nice job!


----------



## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Congratulations!

My hats off to you for entering and placing. I know it takes a tremendous amount of work. 

And by the way, the tank really looks great. I've said it before, but your tank has a certain something that is instantly recognizable as yours. Very, very nice work.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

burr740 said:


> That's a great result! To place at all is quite an accomplishment. Congratulations!
> 
> I think the big green mass is a little overpowering, but it also kinda makes the look. The darkness underneath adds a lot of mystery, like there's something deep and unknown going on there.
> 
> Its even more impressive considering all the challenges you faced during the last few months. Really nice job!


thanks, and yeah I felt the same about the Windelov and Javafern being too overwhelming the closer it got to the deadline.



Greggz said:


> Congratulations!
> 
> My hats off to you for entering and placing. I know it takes a tremendous amount of work.
> 
> And by the way, the tank really looks great. I've said it before, but your tank has a certain something that is instantly recognizable as yours. Very, very nice work.


thanks

=======

So back to the current scape

This one stem of glandulosa has been bugging me for awhile, look how much it stretched lol. these stems love light way too much to be in their current location. around 120 PAR to 140 PAR



moved some of the buces up to see how they would do, hopefully I don't fry em 


after moving some things around, some where between 130 PAR and 165 PAR. wanted to also see if more light will make the mermaid weed leaves fuller instead of spiney.



3 days after (today), notice the glandulosa turned redder?


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

How is that H trip japan carpet working out for you, much trouble to maintain?


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

burr740 said:


> How is that H trip japan carpet working out for you, much trouble to maintain?


it's been less trouble than I expected. Only trouble I ran into was accidentally pulling some of it when trimming. I might prop up the driftwood dividing the Tripartia and Glandulosa or trim the Tripartia down some more.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Decided to get rid of a majority of the Ludwigia on the right, just seem odd to have a giant sloped block of it going from front to back when I already have a giant mount of it in the center


Post nuke


*Scape stuff:*
moved the Anubias Micro? a bit out to the front


huge empty spot here, haven't figured out what I want yet. I'm open to suggestions. I do know that I want to regrow some Hygrophila serpyllum as a carpet first though, if not I'll make a another Tripartia carpet. Pogostemon Heferi is also a considertation.
Might remove the Bacopa for something like Staurogyne Spatula or Big Leaf or maybe Limno Rugosa. If I keep the Bacopa I might throw some Rotala Sunset or Florida or which ever one preferred harder water next to it and make a street out of it too.


I might get rid of this piece of wood or cover it in buce, moss, or anubias.
The Ludwigia Repens here is just a place holder, I think I want Ambulia here but Idk.


Still hoping that the Anubias nana petitie in the quarantine tank makes a quick recovery

*Plant health:*
Perunesis/Glandulosa curling a bit at the tips. I've added 2 ppm Mg to see if it does anything. I know my tap water gets a lil softer during this time of year (even though Ca level is still 80 ppm)



Siamensis tips are also curling


Hippuroides top side leaves have a lil hint of red too now


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Welp time to make a huge gamble dropping NO3 to 15 ppm dosed and K to 22.5 ppm dosed. Curious if lower NO3 would provide better growth in my tank. Plus I think I might have a high amount of excess ferts.


Toss a water lettuce in the tank, if it grows fast you have an excess amount of ferts somewhere. Got the idea from Vin Kutty.


Also swapping to higher concentrated doses due to this post


burr740 said:


> @Greggz it is possible your mac varie has too much built up within the plant. It would probably benefit from a week or two of zero. Other stuff probably would not appreciate it though. And if it's slowly bouncing back well, just keep doing what you're doing.
> 
> In my tanks during about a month when B and Zn were both in the .07s and dosing daily, several things began to melt at the stems down low; mac varie, myrio mini, didiplis and gratiola. So one or both of those caused problems at daily .07
> 
> ...


I didn't scale down the micros because my water is stupid high in Calcium 70 to 80 ppm and that can affect nutrient update pretty harshly. I'll have to watch for Phosphorus, Manganese, or Born deficiencies in my case since my tank is above 6.8+ pH for at least 13hrs of the day.









I also wanted to test out Marian Sterian's fert routine but scaled up (he has soft water), his being 10 ppm NO3, 2 ppm P, 15 ppm K, and 1 ppm Fe weekly.

Tank before switching routines:








I'm expecting the Ludwigia Glandulose/Perunesis to complain a lot and the Mermaid Weed to shrink/switch back to spiney looking leaves. I'm hoping they don't but we'll see.


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Cant wait to see how this goes!


----------



## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

You are a brave man Sir!

Can't wait to see what happens. 

Next post I will grab some popcorn, sit back, and enjoy the show! 

Either way it should be something.


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

I kinda tried this approach and I know how that went for me. What I wonder though - just like getting new plants from across the country, there may be an adaptation period. I freaked out too early and went back to my old ways. What would have happened if I stayed the course and maintained the "NO3 at 15 ppm dosed"?

So, will be following this closely.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Greggz said:


> You are a brave man Sir!
> 
> Can't wait to see what happens.
> 
> ...


I think I may have screwed up already because after looking at Marian's tank again I just realized I have a higher planting density than him. I do have a bit of a safety net with NO3 and K being in my tap though.



Immortal1 said:


> I kinda tried this approach and I know how that went for me. What I wonder though - just like getting new plants from across the country, there may be an adaptation period. I freaked out too early and went back to my old ways. What would have happened if I stayed the course and maintained the "NO3 at 15 ppm dosed"?
> 
> So, will be following this closely.


Do you remember how long decided to stick with 15ppm before swapping back? I'm thinking I'll stick with for 3 weeks and see what happens unless the buces start dying before then, the other plants don't require as much patience so I'm it won't be as big of a loss.


----------



## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Congrats on placing!
A big achievement and a stepping stone to up and up.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

@SingAlongWithTsing - I'm thinking it was around 3 weeks (really wish I wrote some of this down). What started it was noting my API Nitrate test kit was coming up dark read when I was dosing KNO3 at about 1/2 tsp (x3) per week. Ok, too much. So I decided to try 1/8 tsp (x3) per week. Several plants stunted and others lost color. Should I have made this change more slowly - probably. 

If I had made the change slowly, and stayed at a lower KNO3 dose for longer... would I have ended up with a beautiful tank? or a tank full of dead plants? My instinct was a tank full of dead plants.
I currently am dosing 1/4 tsp (x5) per week or 27.8ppm (assuming 2.8ppm in tap noted on water report).


----------



## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Immortal1 said:


> If I had made the change slowly, and stayed at a lower KNO3 dose for longer... would I have ended up with a beautiful tank? or a tank full of dead plants? My instinct was a tank full of dead plants.


My thought as well. But like you, maybe did not give it enough time.

If I were going to do it again, I would lower it VERY gradually......like over months.

But let's see what happens. My guess is some upset plants short term......long term who knows?


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

_*October 29th*_





hm color seems to be fading on the tops of the Perunesis/Glandulosa but I think that might be due to spreading out the micros (Sat, Tues, Thurs, water change on Fri). Some of the tops were twisted more after the Oct 27th water change too.

BGA spreading like a disease only on the old leaves of the Ludwigias (Perunesis/Glandulosa and Repens)


the water lettuce seems to be enjoying its time


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Well now we see how much patience you have.

About what I would expect so far.

Very, very curious to see where this goes next.


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Have you lowered everything yet or just micros to 3x week?


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

burr740 said:


> Have you lowered everything yet or just micros to 3x week?




I've just lowered the Macros to 15:3:22.5 so far.

Micros remain the same cept instead of going 0.25 ppm Fe x6 I swapped to 0.5 ppm Fe x3. Still 1.5 ppm per week.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Found out what was causing my GDA and BGA Blooms (everything got hit), 0.25 ppm ammonia showed up on my test. Probably from overfeeding unless the tank went through a mini cycle a couple of weeks ago because of the rescape.



Got some Staurogyne spatulata, Limnophila chinesis, Hyptis lorentziana, and Red Cabomba from Joe


Temporary spots. As soon as I grow enough Red Cambomba I'm ripping out some of the L. Repends behind it.
AR Mini seems to be recovering well after being un-shaded, Ludwigia sp Red, and Hygrophila Serpyllum too.



Replanted some Anubias Nana Petite. Not sure if I wanna keep the Ludwigia under that center branch with the Anubias. My barbs don,t seem to realize that they can swim through it.


Perunesis/Glandulosa still growing like a monster. Think they're be leaning towards the glass because of the light form windows




FTS


----------



## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

That FTS really draws your attention.

I could stare at it for quite some time.

That is a good thing. Very nice!


----------



## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> Found out what was causing my GDA and BGA Blooms (everything got hit), 0.25 ppm ammonia showed up on my test. Probably from overfeeding unless the tank went through a mini cycle a couple of weeks ago because of the rescape.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Mine glandulosa did the same thing and my tank is in a garage nonwindows... and I have the same lighting... maybe the Light is too bright and it’s trying to get some shade!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Morning/pre maintenace shot


Moving the Perunesis/Glandulosa


Buce seems to be doing fine at 300+ PAR, it's throwing out new leaves


Moving the Red Cambomba over to Perunesis' old spot. tentative final height will be 7-8."
Trimmed the Mermaid Weed to dense up the group a bit, final height I want to keep it at will probably be about 8-9."



Cleaned up the AR Mini


Had to move the Staurogyene Big leaf here, it's old spot had too much flow


Most of the bottom leaves of the Limnophila Chinensis melted, dunno if it hates hard water.
Leaving the Hyptis Lorenzeta here for now.


FTS


If the AR Mini doesn't stay at it's current size and grows bigger I'll swap out the Red Cambomba and move it to that spot.


Potential layout:
Left side
/Limnophila Hippuroides
\Mermaid Weed
\AR Mini or some other type of AR

Right side
\Ludwigia Perunesis/Glandulosa
/Hyptis Lorenzeta?
/Red Cambomba

As for ferts, no real change. Just swapping back to 6x 0.25 ppm Fe from the current 3x 0.5 ppm Fe.


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

That FTS looks better now than your contest entry. I like that a lot.

Your plants overall look pretty happy. When AR is that flat there's not much wrong.

Chinesis is prone to melt bottom leaves in mine too, not sure why


----------



## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

How did you get the HC japan to grow low like that and spread? Did you have to stretch it out? Did you start it with multiple small pieces that filled in? I like that look, like a field of clovers.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

ChrisX said:


> How did you get the HC japan to grow low like that and spread? Did you have to stretch it out? Did you start it with multiple small pieces that filled in? I like that look, like a field of clovers.


I bought a golf ball size one and spreaded it out plastic mesh near the surface for a while, got sick of that look. ripped it off the mesh and "stapled" the whole piece into the sand and by staple I mean I bent some plant weights into a U. If I had to do it again I'd probably use some stainless steel mesh instead.


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## rebelrebel (May 26, 2018)

This journal has been a great read. Thanks to @SingAlongWithTsing and all the contributors. Following along.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> I bought a golf ball size one and spreaded it out plastic mesh near the surface for a while, got sick of that look. ripped it off the mesh and "stapled" the whole piece into the sand and by staple I mean I bent some plant weights into a U. If I had to do it again I'd probably use some stainless steel mesh instead.


Do you know local sources that stock stainless steel mesh? I have a blob of HC japan that I was floating for a long time, now its weighed down on the bottom with some stones, but it's still a blob.


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

ChrisX said:


> Do you know local sources that stock stainless steel mesh? I have a blob of HC japan that I was floating for a long time, now its weighed down on the bottom with some stones, but it's still a blob.


McMaster Carr comes in 12" squares and you can cut with heavy scissors.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Still trimming Ludwigia Repens every week


Still have some Cyano problems in a few places. I'm thinking it might be a flow related thing, something about having enough flow to blow away organics from a plant's boundary layers (got the idea from BRS's video about flow, might only apply to corals though).


Some snails have been munching on the Hyptis


Still waiting for some explosive growth from these guys. Guess they might still be adjusting to my water unless 165+PAR is gonna force em to carpet instead of grow upwards.


Probably gonna trim the Limnophila Hippuroides in 2 more weeks. Some of the stems have grown some side shoots. Only problem is idk where to plant the future trimmings. I do know I want to dense up that Hippuroides bush.


Hygrophila Serphyllum creeping along


Alternanthera Reineckii Mini still flat and hella red



Perunesis still doing good, newer leaves arent as twisting


Remember this Anubias golden from 5ever ago? this is the same one that got hit with Anubias rot about a year ago, this only about a 3rd of what I have stashed in my plant pond. Rotted down to a tiny 1" rhizome and now its chugging along just fine.


Was deciding whether to use the Anubias Golden or Windelov Java fern. 
Ultimately I went with the Windelov for 2 reasons; 1: I wanted a plant that can trap detritus from flowing into the Staurogyene Repens and 2: Golden's leaf shape and color is way too similar to the repens.
Gonna see if it'll darken up in a few weeks. If not, I might need to find a dark green plant that can tolerate low light (that spot is directly under neath a brace.)


FTS


----------



## lab_fly (May 6, 2018)

Everything looks great! Thanks for sharing! How do you get your HC japan to grow so dense? Mine just grows straight up (and slowly)


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## lab_fly (May 6, 2018)

Ha! Just saw you answered my question a few posts ago! Thanks so much. Do it doesn't necessarily grow like that? You positioned it to be spread out?


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Cant believe furcata hasnt hit the surface already, twice, under all that light!


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

lab_fly said:


> Ha! Just saw you answered my question a few posts ago! Thanks so much. Do it doesn't necessarily grow like that? You positioned it to be spread out?


with enough light it'll stay low. trimming it every now and then is recommended so the bottom layers don't die off (+ it'll "train" it to spread), it'll float off if the bottom layer dies from experience lol.



burr740 said:


> Cant believe furcata hasnt hit the surface already, twice, under all that light!


ikr. high ferts, high co2, and high light and it's been a lil over 2 weeks now?

I remember it took the Serphyllum almost a month to start going nuts before too. That 80+ ppm of Ca might be making things harder for the Furcata to adjust.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Pre-maintenace shot


Stupid amount of BGA on the siamensis


BGA on some of the Hippuroides too


BGA on Cabomba


Tore out the Leopard Val too improve flow in the back, not sure what I'll replace it with. Maybe Hygrophila Odora? or Pogostemon Quadrifolius?
Trimmed the Hippuroides and planted them in the temporary spot, one these stems grow tall enough they'll be moved back to the old spot.




Basically any stem plant that's part of the lower 2/3rds of the tank has BGA. Surprisingly the Hydrocotyle tripartia Japan, S. Repens, and S. Big Leaf dont have any. I have a feeling it might be flow related and will be modding my outflow in the next couple of days. I am super tempted to get a Ice Cap gyre 3k but I'm not sure if I have to move my overflow box to min/max it.

_Good news:_
Cabomba crawling


No algae on the anubia nana petite yet


Buce is doing good


Post Maintenance


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Sorry to hear about the BGA. Always a PITA when algae of some form invades a tank. The erythromycin treatment has worked for me in the past. 
Interestingly enough, I do still have BGA in both of my bigger tanks. It seems to live in the substrate along the front glass. If you look close you can see it but it never seems to infect the rest of the tank. 
Not exactly sure why it doesn't. Maybe someday I will and can tell everybody 

As for the trim - tank looks great! I have some anubia nana petite growing along one of my hardwood pieces but have to admit, your buce looks pretty impressive.


----------



## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

You still running the lower macro dosing?


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Immortal1 said:


> Sorry to hear about the BGA. Always a PITA when algae of some form invades a tank. The erythromycin treatment has worked for me in the past.
> Interestingly enough, I do still have BGA in both of my bigger tanks. It seems to live in the substrate along the front glass. If you look close you can see it but it never seems to infect the rest of the tank.
> Not exactly sure why it doesn't. Maybe someday I will and can tell everybody
> 
> As for the trim - tank looks great! I have some anubia nana petite growing along one of my hardwood pieces but have to admit, your buce looks pretty impressive.


I had some living in the front glass too til I poked around too much and it escaped xD

I might go the erythromycin route too, or chemiclean 



Greggz said:


> You still running the lower macro dosing?


yup, 15 ppm NO3, 3 ppm PO4, 22.5 ppm K


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Didn't take a pre-trim FTS this week.

BGA keeps coming back when ever I wipe it and siphon it out of the tank but at least the Perunesis was still growing





Going for a sharp 7 or L like street, will take a while to grow in correctly. Might thin out the end near the Staurogyene Big Leaf when the time is right.


Probably the best growth I've had of the Ludwigia Sp Red and Alternanthera Reineckii Mini in the past 2~3 years.


Cambomba looks like it finally adjusted


Haven't figured out what to do with the sword yet


Something about this side is bugging me too


FTS post trim

still waiting on the Hippuroides to grow taller before moving em to the back

Got a new gadget to mess around with, the Hanna Fe Colorimeter.
Measurements so far

Wanted to see if I've been overdosing iron and if it's causing so Phosphate uptake problems. I really want to nail down the lower leaf lost issue that I've always had with various stems, suspects so far are: 
high Fe (blocking Phosphate), solution: lower Fe
poor flow (which means poor nutrient delivery), solution: moving out flow pipe to back left and adding a gyre pump to the left side








too high of a planting density (thus blocking out light), solution: not sure


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Shots from Thursday night:



I got the chemiclean in the mail on Monday but the BGA was already dying back in most parts of the tank after the previous water change ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Limnophila Hippuroides pre-re-scape. it's been growing in this spot for 2 weeks and the bottom leaves are still there. I'm guessing the old spot had more of a flow issue than light, the driftwood was blocking some flow. 



Still debating if I wanna keep the sword or pull it out


Staurogyene Spatula still doing good


In contrast the Hyptis is going to hell for whatever reason. I do recall Vin saying it does better with 30 ppm NO3 per week. I'm still dosing 15 ppm per week and intend to keep it there.


Built some platforms out of egg crate for a windelov street


Moved some of the bucephalandra up to the top of the driftwood instead of sitting in the shadows of the mermaid weed, cambomba, and siamensis


I don't plan on adding Buce to the back driftwood, planning to grow Limnophila Aromatica taller



gonna shape up the bacopa and probably move the Hyptis into the dirt plant pond and see how it does there.


FTS, didn't intend for the scape to have a convex shape but's it starting to grow in that direction. 



Accidentally dosed 1.6 ppm Fe this week instead of 1.5 ppm Fe. Uptake seems to be about 1.1 ppm Fe per week.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Id swap the sword and the 53B, and let the 53B get tall. That is unless you're trying to preserve the empty spaces in each back corner.

This fert experiment is very interesting. Low macros with high micros and high co2 is really the last combination that should work. But it seems to be working here.

The hyptis isnt struggling too bad. In fact I'd say its doing pretty well except for the lower leaves looking ragged. The tops are big and colorful. Its definitely not stunted. The crappy old growth could be a mild shortage of a macro or two. Or it might be something else, idk

Light isnt the problem for the lower leaves. Plants use light holistically, meaning if the top is getting enough light it will sustain the whole plant. It doesnt have to shine on a particular leaf. Dropping lower leaves is a plant health issue, not a light issue

The apparent Fe uptake is interesting. That's....a lot

Just to be clear all your micros are high, right, not just Fe?


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

burr740 said:


> Id swap the sword and the 53B, and let the 53B get tall. That is unless you're trying to preserve the empty spaces in each back corner.


 I think I'll swap em around next maintenance, would probably be easier to manage the sword too in case it decides to shoot out baby swords.



> This fert experiment is very interesting. Low macros with high micros and high co2 is really the last combination that should work. But it seems to be working here.


yeah I'm surprised it's working out too. 

chart for the newer readers. tap pH is 8.1 this time of year for me.




> The hyptis isnt struggling too bad. In fact I'd say its doing pretty well except for the lower leaves looking ragged. The tops are big and colorful. Its definitely not stunted. The crappy old growth could be a mild shortage of a macro or two. Or it might be something else, idk


I guess I'll keep em in the tank a bit longer and hope it's just an adjustment thing. Probably shove more osmocote near the roots to speed up the process.



> Light isnt the problem for the lower leaves. Plants use light holistically, meaning if the top is getting enough light it will sustain the whole plant. It doesnt have to shine on a particular leaf. Dropping lower leaves is a plant health issue, not a light issue


I've been trying to beat that in my head for the last 2 to 3 years and it never sticks lol. 



> The apparent Fe uptake is interesting. That's....a lot
> 
> Just to be clear all your micros are high, right, not just Fe?


yeah I was surprised too. and yeah the other micros are pretty high too.

I haven't been dosing MgSO4 so you guys can ignore that part lol. Tap Mg is around 16 ppm, and Ca still around 80

NO3:K:Fe was based off Marian Sterian's 10:2:15:1. Not sure what his Micro's ratios are in relation to Fe though.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

pre trim although the ludwigia repens did grow it also got loose and started floating up like a mat, think my barbs knocked some of it loose. some of the stems did't had roots reaching down to the sand so I guess it was floating up bit by bit for awhile:

not gonna lie, I was pretty mad when I realize a couple of weeks of shaping the mound started floating up


got fed up with trying to put it back in place so I decided to pull it out and start over, probably a huge ass mistake on my part.



gonna try getting the same mound again but with mesh this time


post screw up


I still have about a 4 gallon bucket and a half of this stuff to sort and go through to see what I can fix / recover


At least the buce is doing good


Somehow got some Lobelia mini mixed in with Hygrophila Serpyllum



Waiting a couple of more weeks before trimming the Hyptis


I know I said I was gonna swap the sword and 53b this week but I think I might think about it some more due to how big the sword leaves can get. The leaf is 2" wide at the widest point and 12" from crown to tip so far and from past experiences it can get taller.


1.05 ppm Fe uptake this week, at this point I wouldn't be surprised if my weekly uptake is between 1 and 1.1


Tempted to try to do a Hygrophila Pinatifida wall or at least on the left behind the Limnophila Hippuroides and the sword. I would need some reliable black suction cups (if you guys have an evilbay item # let me know)


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Nice update

After trying a bunch of different kinds I use these to hold up the moss walls, pretty good suction cups. Pawfly is the brand - 233002299776


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Nice update!

Personally I like the "post screw up" version of the tank. 

Not sure why....might be a clearer separation of the species with more contrast? 

And my eye is drawn across the entire scape. More to look at? 

Anyway, I like it both ways, but this displays your plant variety in a different perspective.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

Greggz said:


> Nice update!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree wholeheartedly. I can’t make out the right sided branch at all prior to pulling the center mass of plants. Makes me look around and take it all in. Plus the branch is covered in nice buce’s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Not much to update during the past 2 weeks, just been trying to pin down some micro nutrient problems.










I suspect it might be a Molybdenum deficiency; twisted leaves in Perunesis/Glandulosa, leaf tip curl on Hygrophila Siamensis (not pictured), cupping on the Swords. As for the holes in the leaves in of the plants, I think it might be K related or something inhibiting it.



> PLANTS GROWN ONAMMONIUM NITROGEN MAYNOT BECOME CHLOROTIC, but develop severely twisted young leaves, which eventually die. Other characteristic molybdenum deficiency symptoms include marginal scorching and rolling or cupping of leaves. With molybdenum deficiency, nitrogen deficiency symptoms may develop in the presence of adequate levels of nitrate nitrogen in the root environment and high levels of nitrate nitrogen in the plant. Nitrate nitrogen must be reduced in the plant before it can be utilized. Molybdenum is required for this reduction, and if molybdenum is deficient, nitrate may accumulate to a high level in the plant, and at the same time the plant may exhibit nitrogen deficiency symptoms. Molybdenum differs from other trace nutrients in that many plants can develop in its absence provided that ammonium nitrogen is present. Molybdenum appears to be essential for the nitrate-reducing enzyme to function.





> NECROSIS OCCURS AT TIP AND MARGIN OF LEAVES CAUSING A DEFINITE HOOK AT LEAF TIP. Calcium is essential for the growth of shoot and root tips (meristems). Growing point dies. Margins of young leaves are scalloped and abnormally green and, due to inhibition of cell wall formation, the leaf tips may be "gelatinous" and stuck together inhibiting leaf unfolding. Stem structure is weak and peduncle collapse or shoot topple may occur. Roots are stunted. Premature shedding of fruit and buds is common. Downward curl of leaf tips (hooking) occurs near terminal bud. AMMONIUM or MAGNESIUM EXCESS may induce a calcium deficiency in plants.... CALCIUM DEFICIENCY


The Ammonium "excess" problem could be due to the individual osmocote balls which I've manually attached to the roots of some stems. I guess I could always cram more bio media into the sump to see if it also helps with the ammonium.

dosing regime hasn't changed yet though, not sure how much I wanna boost Mo by yet


Fe uptake


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Eh, rather than Mo, does it not seem more likely this is a response to lowering NO3, or macros in general? Ppm-wise that should be plenty of Mo. And besides, you wouldnt develop a Mo deficiency after lowering NO3. If anything it would be the opposite (less NO3=less demand for Mo)

Fwiw Marian and those guys have pretty soft water. I'll be very surprised if you can get away with such low macros


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

burr740 said:


> Fwiw Marian and those guys have pretty soft water. I'll be very surprised if you can get away with such low macros


I've thought that from the beginning, but was glad to the attempt. 

Have to agree with Joe, looks very much to me like response to low macros.

If I were you, I wouldn't adjust anything else and just toss in some higher macro dosing for a week or so. My suspicion is that those plants bounce back quickly. 

If not, then on to other causes.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

burr740 said:


> Eh, rather than Mo, does it not seem more likely this is a response to lowering NO3, or macros in general? Ppm-wise that should be plenty of Mo. And besides, you wouldnt develop a Mo deficiency after lowering NO3. If anything it would be the opposite (less NO3=less demand for Mo)
> 
> Fwiw Marian and those guys have pretty soft water. I'll be very surprised if you can get away with such low macros


I thought that too at firstn but I had these same problems (same plants along wit AR stunting) with 30:3:30 NO3:K before too. I think it was through out May 2018 to October 2018 that I was using that ratio and before that in May 2017 to July 2017? and I had still got the twisting and hooking in Perunesis/Glandulosa.

Is there anything that can inhibit Mo uptake? didn't see anything on Mulder's chart.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Really curious to see where this goes. I have very similar issues to these, especially with my Rigosa and my AR. When I lowered the NPK everybody seemed to complain. Now that I am back up to 28 / 6.5 / 32 NPK, most everybody seems happy EXCEPT the 2 plants mentioned above. When I saw your pics with the specific shaped holes (not just round pin holes with brown edges) I became very interested


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Random Ludwigia repens leaf


Cabomba after trimming and planting


Limnophila Hippuroides


Hippuroides from yesterday's maintenance


One of the twist Glandulosa/Perunesis


Hygrophila Siamensis 53 B


Panthorum Seidiodes


Inconsistent leaf shape on Mermaid weed. I had both forms (spiney and the "fuller" versions) in one scape at one point lol.





FTS


the more I look at this scape the more I wonder if I have too much red


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> the more I look at this scape the more I wonder if I have too much red


Not to me.....but then again maybe you have seen my tank?

Anyway, I think it's just right!:wink2:


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Pretrim / Maintenance


Bacopa tops turning pink


Lobelia cardinalis dwarf


Random Ludwigia Repens


And yeah that's the turtle pond with emmersed Argentine sword


Deep cleaned both pumps today, holy hell the blades were covered in a lot of brown gunk. Might be Fe precipitation like Joe/ @burr740 predicted.


Tried to clean up the rest of the Lobelia a bit, thinking of thinning and stretching the "street." It blends too well with the Hygrophila Serpyllum though. Randomly threw the Ludwigia Sp Red there too, not sure what to do with it yet.


Left side still good


Not sure what I wanna do with the center yet. I feel that if I remove the Ludwigia repens it'll be too much negative space.


Added 8 Gold barbs a couple of days ago


Post Maintenance


Bumping K from 22.5 ppm to 26.5 ppm to see if it'll help with the holes and leaf twisting in Glandulosa/Perunesis. Supposedly K helps B uptake and increased B uptake will help with Ca and Mg uptake.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

That full tank shot is freakin sweet. Gets better and better

Im surprised lower NO3 is working so well...



SingAlongWithTsing said:


> Supposedly K helps B uptake and increased B uptake will help with Ca and Mg uptake.


This is backwards. If raising K doesnt make an immediate improvement try going the other way with it


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

burr740 said:


> That full tank shot is freakin sweet. Gets better and better
> 
> Im surprised lower NO3 is working so well...


there's some NO3 (about 8 ppm at one point) in the tap too although I'm not sure how much anymore because my city switches or mixes sources every now and then without warning.



> This is backwards. If raising K doesnt make an immediate improvement try going the other way with it


I have the chart you posted in my spread sheet but I also saw this one while I was rummaging around Jorn Ullits? 's site








Higher Ca would require higher B and the opposite too right from your chart. Idk why this one doesn't show that but I thought I'd give it a try.

Interaktion mellem de enkelte næringsstoffer og tilgængeligheden af disse for planten

edit: i think im confusing myself


> Nutrient interactions in plants are generally measured in terms of growth response and/or change in shoot nutrient concentration. Ceylan and Cakmak (2017) measured the rate of K absorption by canola roots in low and adequate B environments. In this study, depletion (decrease) in K amount from the growth medium was measured over time (Fig. 3). Results showed that plants absorbed K rapidly when B supply was adequate, while under limited B supply (keeping all growing conditions similar), K uptake capacity was limited. Consequently, root K concentration was 5.1% at low and 6.1% at adequate B supply, and shoot tissue K concentration was 5.9% with low and 6.6% with adequate B supply. These results highlight the synergy between boron nutrition and K uptake. Similar studies conducted in different crops have also documented the role of B in K uptake (see suggested readings).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 - https://www.cropnutrition.com/boron-a-critical-nutrient-required-for-root-growth



> Function: Boron is used with calcium in cell wall synthesis and is essential for cell division (creating new plant cells). Boron requirements are much higher for reproductive growth so it helps with pollination, and fruit and seed development. Other functions include translocation of sugars and carbohydrates, nitrogen metabolism, formation of certain proteins, regulation of hormone levels and transportation of potassium to stomata (which helps regulate internal water balance). Since boron helps transport sugars, its deficiency causes a reduction of exudates and sugars from plant roots, which can reduce the attraction and colonization of mycorrhizal fungi.


 - https://www.pthorticulture.com/en/training-center/role-of-boron-in-plant-culture/


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

All three of the charts I have show it the same as the one I posted. I think Jorn may have it wrong in this case

From the last line in the Boron 'Toxicity' paragraph in that phoriculture article you linked


> ...and apply a calcium-containing fertilizer as calcium is known to bind up boron and make it unavailable.


Also if you read the potassium and calcium pages, both state antagonism between K and Ca, which is also the opposite of Jorn's chart

https://www.pthorticulture.com/en/training-center/role-of-calcium-in-plant-culture/

https://www.pthorticulture.com/en/training-center/role-of-potassium-in-plant-culture/


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

burr740 said:


> All three of the charts I have show it the same as the one I posted. I think Jorn may have it wrong in this case
> 
> From the last line in the Boron 'Toxicity' paragraph in that phoriculture article you linked
> 
> ...


ye I'm gtting the feeling I should of dropped K levels now after looking over this again

and this, although I haven't see the "dropped out" pieces.


> b. Interveinal Chlorosis With Smallest Veins Remaining GREEN producing a
> checkered or finely netted effect. Grey or tan necrotic spots usually develop in chlorotic areas;
> the dead spots of tissue may drop out of the leaf giving a ragged appearance. Poor bloom -both
> size and color. POTASSIUM EXCESS can inhibit uptake of manganese... MANGANESE
> DEFICIENCY


Here's the pdf for A Systematic Approach to Diagnosing Plant Damage, Vol. 13, Issue 6 if anyone can't find it online anymore:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xCdScC2ECyIySjJqhhXu29QgBCAjncqP/view?usp=sharing


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

*~*

Eh late update

Clump of buce is doing good in terms of size, leaf health can be improved. Newer leaves come in red hot ones and after a few weeks it'll cool down to a bluish color.



Hippuroides off shoot that's been hidden for awhile, will probably turned bright pink in the next few days or weeks


Friday, shaded spot


Today (Monday), unshaded spot


Shots from today







From Friday

Some of the older leaves are wavy too






> OLDER LEAVES CHLOROTIC, usually necrotic in late stages. CHLOROSIS
> ALONG LEAF MARGINS EXTENDING BETWEEN VEINS PRODUCES A "Christmas tree"
> PATTERN. Veins normal green. Leaf margins may curl downward or upward with puckering
> effect. Necrosis may suddenly occur between veins. POTASSIUM or CALCIUM EXCESS can
> inhibit uptake of magnesium... MAGNESIUM DEFICIENCY


Downward and puckering right? Argentine Sword


Current degassed tap is:
7.8~7.9 pH
80 ppm Ca
16~17 ppm Mg

not sure why my pH lowered while the Ca and Mg remained the same, not sure if the city added something to the water.

Gonna drop K from 26.25 weekly to 15 ppm weekly to see if I can smooth out the leaf margins. If I end up pissing off the plants and the new leaves have pin holes I guess I'll just start adding Mg per week.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Been behind on a few updates

The Hydrocotyle Tripartia carpert was slowly dying, dunno if it was due to the lack of light (sword, limno hippuroides, and cabomba all blocking it) or lower macro levels or even all the Bacopa on the right blocking flow. I'm leaning towards it being a flow/nutrient delivery problem.
Currently trying to regrow a mat of it with whatever healthy bits I have left.


The buce behind the limnophila has been growing pretty well, decided to propagate and move some of it


New spot, replaced the anubias nana petite



Decided to check up the Limno Hippuroides section, lost a bit of the bottom leaves. Pretty sure it's flow/nutrient delivery related


Still hella red/hot pink


Dropping K (dosed at 15 ppm weekly total for the past 3 weeks now) had some slight improvements on the L. Glandulosa/Perunesis. Haven't seen any new pin holes in any plants so far either.



Currently testing out what 10 ppm Mg post water change would do. In tank Ca:Mg should be about 80:26~27 = 3.08~2.96:1

Planning to re-plumb my sump too, proposed idea:


Haven't figured out what I wanted to do with the outflows yet.

Thinking of painting the pipes a metallic red and the fittings a metallic gold for an Iron Man theme lol, might be tacky though.


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## OreoP (Aug 12, 2016)

CO2 reactor: Any reason you have a ball valve at the output of the pump? I have always had a ball valve at the exit of the reactor to introduce back pressure.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

OreoP said:


> CO2 reactor: Any reason you have a ball valve at the output of the pump? I have always had a ball valve at the exit of the reactor to introduce back pressure.


forgot the 2nd ball valve on the output side of the reactor lol. The first one is to lower the speed of the pump further. tbh im not sure if i even need the valves on the reactor, I've been running my reactor with em 100% open the last year or so.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

got my Staurogyne purple today, thanks @burr740




not sure what the stem that snuck in was, pogo kimberley maybe?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Blyxa alternifolia, makes a good midground bush or you can keep it low in more of a carpet. Turns red on top


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

So either the L.Perunesis didn't like the spike of 10 ppm Mg or moving a bunch of plants on the right side of the tank released ammonia (or maybe ammonium?) to the water column.

Pics from Friday / Saturday


SingAlongWithTsing said:


> Been behind on a few updates
> Dropping K (dosed at 15 ppm weekly total for the past 3 weeks now) had some slight improvements on the L. Glandulosa/Perunesis. Haven't seen any new pin holes in any plants so far either.
> 
> 
> ...


Pics today, they look a lil more twisted dont they?







Possibilities 


> 3. CHLOROTIC AREAS (pale yellow) on WHOLE PLANT; LEAF EDGES CURL UPWARD... MOLYBDENUM DEFICIENCY
> General symptoms are similar to those of nitrogen deficiency: Interveinal chlorosis occurring first on the older or midstein I leaves, then progressing to the youngest. Sometimes, as in the "whiptail" disease, PLANTS GROWN ONAMMONIUM NITROGEN MAYNOT BECOME CHLOROTIC, but develop *severely twisted young leaves*, which eventually die. Other characteristic molybdenum deficiency symptoms include* marginal scorching and rolling or cupping of leaves*. With molybdenum deficiency, nitrogen deficiency symptoms may develop in the presence of adequate levels of nitrate nitrogen in the root environment and high levels of nitrate nitrogen in the plant. Nitrate nitrogen must be reduced in the plant before it can be utilized. Molybdenum is required for this reduction, and if molybdenum is deficient, nitrate may accumulate to a high level in the plant, and at the same time the plant may exhibit nitrogen deficiency symptoms. Molybdenum differs from other trace nutrients in that many plants can develop in its absence provided that ammonium nitrogen is present. Molybdenum appears to be essential for the nitrate-reducing enzyme to function. Molybdenum deficiencies are commonly found in Northeastern Washington.


Molybdenum (Mo): 0.0018 - 0.005 ppm, avg being 0.00281 ppm
Molybdenum (Mo): 0.015 ppm weekly dose
part of me doubts I have too little Mo. Aquatic plants can produce their own Mo too right?



> 2. NECROSIS OCCURS AT TIP AND MARGIN OF LEAVES CAUSING A DEFINITE HOOK AT LEAF TIP. Calcium is essential for the growth of shoot and root tips (meristems). Growing point dies. Margins of young leaves are scalloped and abnormally green and, due to inhibition of cell wall formation, the leaf tips may be "gelatinous" and stuck together inhibiting leaf unfolding. Stem structure is weak and peduncle collapse or shoot topple may occur. Roots are stunted. Premature shedding of fruit and buds is common. Downward curl of leaf tips (hooking) occurs near terminal bud. *AMMONIUM or MAGNESIUM EXCESS may induce a calcium deficiency *in plants.... CALCIUM DEFICIENCY


I dumped 10 ppm Mg on water change day so that's most likely the cause.



> TISSUE BREAKDOWN -NECROSIS AND FIRING OF THE TIP AND MARGINS OF THE LEAF The ammonium cation in itself may become phytotoxic and result in breakdown of the plant tissue (proteolysis -breakdown of plant proteins) initially producing a wet, dark-green, "steamed" appearance at the leaf tips and margins. This destroyed tissue eventually desiccates and becomes a light tan color. *Excess ammonium may also induce calcium deficiency *(abnormally dark green foliage, scalloped leaf margins, *weak stem structure*, death of terminal bud or growing point of the plant, premature shedding of the blossoms and buds)... AMMONIUM EXCESS


ngl, some stems broke from their own weight while being pulled out of the water.



> 1. OLDER LEAVES CHLOROTIC, usually necrotic in late stages. CHLOROSIS ALONG LEAF MARGINS EXTENDING BETWEEN VEINS PRODUCES A "Christmas tree" PATTERN. Veins normal green. *Leaf margins may curl downward or upward with puckering effect.* Necrosis may suddenly occur between veins. POTASSIUM or CALCIUM EXCESS can inhibit uptake of magnesium... MAGNESIUM DEFICIENCY
> 
> When the external magnesium supply is deficient, interveinal chlorosis of the older leaves is the first symptom because as the magnesium of the chlorophyll is remobilized, the mesophyll cells next to the vascular bundles retain chlorophyll for longer periods than do the parenchyma cells between them. Leaves lose green color at tips and between veins followed by chlorosis or development of brilliant colors, starting with lower leaves and proceeding upwards. The chlorosis/brilliant colors (unmasking of other leaf pigments due to the lack of chlorophyll) may start at the leaf margins or tips and progress inward interveinally producing a "Christmas" tree pattern. Leaves are abnormally thin, plants are brittle and branches have a tendency to curve upward. Twigs are weak, subject to fungus infection, usually leaves drop prematurely; plant may die the following spring.


I doubt I have too little Mg now after 16 ppm Tap + 10 ppm MgSO4 but the Argentine sword still has a puckered leaf.

tl;dr I can't get away with only 16~17 ppm Mg tap but I can't get away with 26~27 total either lol. I've tested 16~17 tap +2 MgSO4 before and noticed no improvements. Not gonna dose any Mg this Friday (Feb 8th) but will start trying tap +5 ppm MgSO4 starting on the 15th.

Argentine sword finally shot out of the water, maybe the emmersed leaf will give some clues in the oncoming weeks


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

I dont think that extra Mg is a problem with 80 ppm Ca. You probably need it imo. Id stay the course for another couple of weeks. My rubins will protest in a similar fashion at any significant change. Few days later the get right again (assuming the change was a positive)

To me it looks like the main thing L perunesis needs is some room. Sure seems cramped up in that spot. I'd eliminate a few stems and create some space between the bacopa. Could easily be as simple as that


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Thursday nite:

Decided to thin out the bunch of perunesis and do a lil bit of rescaping. Noticed the top of the stem/terminal bud was grey and dead




Friday morning / maintenance day:


Ultimately decided to follow burr's advice and to continue dosing 10 ppm MgSO4 for a bit longer. Will be keeping track of progress with this stem in the back


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

small update:

added some emersed ludwigia white not too sure how well they'll do here. Marian grew em in moderate light with an inert sub, maybe I can too.


staurogyne purple is putting out offshoots



Ceratopteris Siliquosa in the back, we'll see how well it does. supposed to be a fast grower.


Siamensis 53b, lil bit of tip curling, might be adjusting to the the higher Mg



Perunesis didn't get any worst




Random buce shots






and yeah strongly considering removing L.Repens right now

In more fert routine related news
Swapping macros back to 3x no front load and dropping micros by 20% (1.5 ppm weekly Fe to 1.2 ppm Fe). Testing if lowering the micros will help reduce the green dust algae I get on the glass


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## OreoP (Aug 12, 2016)

Where in SoCal are you? Water district?


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

so yesterday I finally went to ck fish world after 3 years being in the hobby

got some Hygrophila Sunset while I was there  temporary spot for now





OreoP said:


> Where in SoCal are you? Water district?


Inland Empire / San Bernardino
https://www.ci.san-bernardino.ca.us/water/residents/consumer_confidence_reports.asp


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Beginning to check on Fe uptake again


Tap is still 80 ppm Ca, 16 ppm Mg

Something's pissing off the limno. Didn't drop my micros by 20% until the 15th. Been testing 10 ppm MgSO4 +16 ppm Mg tap for almost 3 weeks now.
Feb 19th





Feb 21st



The newer batch of Stauro Spatula is coloring up 


at least the lower leaves aren't wavy. Still gotta figure out what's up with the top bud. The lines and the one messed up top (along with some of the messed up Limno ones) make me think it might be a Boron deficiency. Dunno if I might have too much Mg for my plants now and it might be inhibiting some of the Calcium uptake. Too high of Calcium in the water column can cause Boron deficiency couldn't it?

Or maybe I'm wrong and it's a Manganese problem, but this conflict's with Mulder's chart so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


> 1. INTERVEINAL CHLOROSIS ON YOUNG LEAVES.
> 
> b. Interveinal Chlorosis With Smallest Veins Remaining GREEN producing a
> checkered or finely netted effect. Grey or tan necrotic spots usually develop in chlorotic areas;
> ...


I was 50/50 on it but Blyxa Novoguineensis is really starting to grow on me


5 leaves are emmergent now with a 6th and 7th coming along too. Dunno what deficiency is going on.
Feb 25th:







Has to be one of these 3 right


> C. Interveinal chlorosis. Interveinal chlorosis first appears on oldest leaves.
> 1. OLDER LEAVES CHLOROTIC, usually necrotic in late stages. CHLOROSIS
> ALONG LEAF MARGINS EXTENDING BETWEEN VEINS PRODUCES A "Christmas tree"
> PATTERN. Veins normal green. Leaf margins may curl downward or upward with puckering
> ...





> C. Interveinal chlorosis. Interveinal chlorosis first appears on oldest leaves.
> 3. CHLOROTIC AREAS (pale yellow) on WHOLE PLANT; LEAF EDGES
> CURL UPWARD... MOLYBDENUM DEFICIENCY
> 
> ...


kinda doubt it since only the leaves are kinda pale compared to the veins.



> 1. INTERVEINAL CHLOROSIS ON YOUNG LEAVES.
> a. Interveinal Chlorosis On Young Leaves with LARGER VEINS ONLY
> REMAINING GREEN. Necrotic spots usually absent; however, with extreme deficiencies,
> young leaves are almost white and may have necrotic margins and tips; necrotic spots may
> ...


Kinda doubt it with how high I'm dosing.

or maybe I'm over thinking it and it's just the LEDs being too damn strong and burning holes into the leaves.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Stick to worrying about the leaves under water. 

I knew that Novo would color up well in your tank. It starts to go green in mine with NO3 much over 20 per week

Dont know what's the deal with Limno, could be a lot of things. Those deficiency symptom texts (and all the charts you see) hurt my brain. So many symptoms overlap or look the same its easy to chase phantoms. Then there's the whole interaction thing


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

You're locked in with 80 ppm Ca, good or bad. So some things are gonna need to be higher based on that.

Primarily Mg, P and K (but K not higher than Mg), and probably B, Zn and Mn as well.

I would focus on those nutrients, Mg and macros first, then micros


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

burr740 said:


> You're locked in with 80 ppm Ca, good or bad. So some things are gonna need to be higher based on that.
> 
> Primarily Mg, P and K (but K not higher than Mg), and probably B, Zn and Mn as well.
> 
> I would focus on those nutrients, Mg and macros first, then micros



This sounds very much like some of the random issues in my tank. The notable part of the above is "you're locked in with 80 ppm Ca, good or bad". And based on that, your gonna need a bit more than average of these ____, ____, ____.
This pretty much follows my line of thinking - the Ca in your source water ends up dictating several of the other quantities of fertilizer.


Joe's source Ca is 50ppm, mine is 65ppm, and yours is 80ppm. Simple math would tell me I should pay attention to what works in your tank Tsing and what works in Joe's tank, then aim for something in between, "Primarily Mg, P and K (but K not higher than Mg), and probably B, Zn and Mn as well"


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

My Ca is ~40


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

burr740 said:


> My Ca is ~40


 Yeah, was not sure if it had changed any. Got the info from post #30 on your journal.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Thursday Maintenance instead of Friday

The one stem I've been keeping track of is doing "ok." It's been growing towards the shaded area under the overflow box. Im guessing there's too much light, that might be the problem.




The other good stem




The "wth is going on why are the tops dead" steams





Dunno how I feel about the current rearrangement


Gonna give mermaid weed and siamensis 53b a couple of weeks to grow back in a bit before deciding I guess.
Eh random buces and anubias on the left corner til I replumb my sump for a refugium


Decided to move the Glandulosa/Perunesis over here. This spot has less light and the flow is still good.


Might have a chance with growing Ludwigia White, it hasn't died yet


Dropping K (15 to 11.49) and raising PO4 (3 to 4.98)


Dropping K because I wanted to see if it'll help with the curling in Siamensis 53b and to smooth out glandulosa/perunesis: 


> excessive levels of potassium can cause antagonisms that lead to deficiencies in other nutrients such as magnesium and calcium.


https://www.pthorticulture.com/en/training-center/role-of-potassium-in-plant-culture/

Raising Phosphate: been getting GSA on some Buces and the front glass,might as well see if raising PO4 will help although I've also read that having a 10~13:1 N ratio might eliminate it. Glandulosa/Perunesis was shedding leaves like crazy also.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Dropping bottom leaves, in a lot of cases, is too much micros/Fe. Those other symptoms can be too.

I really dont think you need 1.2/week, but you probably want to proceed with the current plan before trying lower levels. 

If its a micro problem the current plan's not gonna help anyway, you'll know something in 2-3 weeks

Also I think the gsa is more about the general unhappiness of certain things rather than PO4. But as long as you're dosing that much Fe you probably need a lot, so raising it might help


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

burr740 said:


> Dropping bottom leaves, in a lot of cases, is too much micros/Fe. Those other symptoms can be too.
> 
> I really dont think you need 1.2/week, but you probably want to proceed with the current plan before trying lower levels.
> 
> If its a micro problem the current plan's not gonna help anyway, you'll know something in 2-3 weeks


what i find really odd is that the glandulosa is the only one shedding bottom leaves (stuck to the overflow every morning). I mean I do get bottom leaf death on the Limnos (all 3 sp) and Stauro repens but they usually stay on and die and die at a lot slower rate than the glandulosa.

I think one of these days I might try not dosing anything for a week to see what happens (maybe late May). Wouldn't mind chipping away at some of the excess ferts, especially NO3. NO3's still reading pretty high, definitely over 17 ppm (calibrated test kit) per week even though I only dose 15 ppm per week and w/e is in my tap (below 8 ppm usually).

17.64 ppm calibrated


more than 17.64, Feb 28th




> Also I think the gsa is more about the general unhappiness of certain things rather than PO4. But as long as you're dosing that much Fe you probably need a lot, so raising it might help


I think another thing I need to check on is photoperiod, I know the right of my tank gets ambient light from the windows and it might explain why the set of buces on the right branch have a lil bit of GSA while the ones on the left branch are still clean, PAR is about equal on both sets, flows a bit weaker on the left side though.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Friday maintenance update

The buces during w/c





Lobelia Dwarf us getting a bit out of hand, might thin it a bit and give the Staurogyne purple more room


I screwed up the Hygrophila Sunesets but they recoloring up, previously they were way too shaded by the brace



Blyxa Novo / Blyxa Novoguineensis still hella red


Lorenzetia Hyptis doing good now after dropping K values to 10ish total



Hygro Pinnatifida, dropped a couple of its emmersed leaves,hoping it grows offshoots faster


Bacopa Caroliana tops turning pink, these were the extremely tall stems


Ceratopteris Siliquosa still adpating to my water I guess


Perunesis, no comment



Mermaid Weed leaves seem fuller now after lowering Fe to 0.6 ppm Weekly over the past week.



Something's been off with the Staurogyne big leaf / Spatulata for awhile now (way before upping Mg and lowering Fe to 0.6 ppm weekly). It's not a good shot but the tops look a lil scrunched up, almost deflated. Something from my micro mix might be inhibiting Cu uptake. I have some Cu from tap too.


The front glass was hella covered with GDA and a lil bit of GSA, razor bladed the whole front and drained the algae out with some spare air line tubing. Dont remember how long it took but I filled a 5gal bucket lol.


Only dosed 0.6 ppm weekly last week, tank soaked up about 0.58 ppm. Guess I'm proving Marcel right?


Testing a new routine starting today, probably the craziest one in awhile.
*Note: * This with the 8 ppm NO3 and 3 ppm K from my tap. What I'm actually adding to the tank is 1.0622 KNO3, 1.288 KH2PO4, and 1.2 K.


Want to see if lowering N further will help with Siamensis 53b's leaf curling and Perunesis' wonky leaves. 
What's rolling around in my head: N increases Mg up take, higher Mg in the plant may antagonize with w/e amount of Ca is in it causing faux Ca deficiency.

Lowering Micros to to see if lowered B will prevent any more leaf loss in Perunesis and Limnophila.


> Toxicity: Boron toxicity is similar to other micronutrient toxicities in which the older leaves start to show a marginal or leaf tip chlorosis that soon becomes necrotic or burned. Necrosis progresses inward on the leaf causing its death and defoliation. It can rapidly affect all lower leaves. The range between the correct application rate and a toxic application rate is very narrow. If boron toxicity occurs, test the growing medium's pH and nutrient levels, and also test the water. Boron toxicity can occur if the growing medium's pH is below 5.5 or if there is an overapplication of boron. Check the water source as levels above 0.5 ppm are considered high, especially when combined with standard fertilizers that contain boron. Leaching will help flush out excess boron, and apply a calcium-containing fertilizer as calcium is known to bind up boron and make it unavailable.


 - https://www.pthorticulture.com/en/training-center/role-of-boron-in-plant-culture/

Why the weird numbers? It's from aiming for a 10:1:10 *NPK* (not NO3O4:K) ratio to see if it helps with the stupid amount of GDA. 



> Elevated iron (Fe), trace minerals, and high NH4/PO4 are the most likely causes of GDA. Green Dust Algae manifests itself in tanks dosed with traces that are produced from strong chelates whereas sulfate (SO4-) and chloride (Cl-) derived traces are less likely to cause GDA. The largest contributor to the development of GDA appears to be the administration of excessive amounts of iron.
> To prevent the spread of GDA, a balance of Urea/NH4/NO3 (N), Potassium (K), Phosphorous (P), and Iron (Fe)/Trace should be dosed in the aquarium. However, this method works best in densely planted tanks as the goal is to stimulate the plants to outcompete the GDA for available nutrients. Green Dust Algae thrives in sparsely planted tanks due to the lower rates of nutrient consumption which also explains why recently trimmed tanks are more likely to have breakouts of GDA. Maintaining a high level of plant density becomes an obvious goal in the pursuit of the elimination of GDA. Furthermore, to eliminate GDA and never see it again, use a balanced fertilizer designed for aquatic plants. One should avoid using CSM and Miller.


 - All things algae by Happi 



> When Green Spot Algae (GSA) is discussed, it is often mentioned that it is caused by low phosphate (PO43-, not to be confused with elemental P which is phosphorous) levels. On the contrary, all the experiments I have conducted indicate otherwise and I have seen GSA occur under high PO4 levels and vanish under low PO4 levels. GSA is easily controlled by using a balanced fertilizer, unbalanced fertilizers promote GSA as well as many other types of algae. In my testing it was found that keeping the N ratio in the range of 10-13:1 would keep the GSA away in many cases. Commonly used N ratios tend to fall in the 5-7.5:1 range and there seems to be a strong correlation between the appearance of multiple forms of algae and N ratios that get approach to 1:1. Sometimes GSA and GDA would appear together due to excessive doses of Fe/Traces, Nitrogen, and Phosphorous but under proper conditions, GDA and GSA will not appear even on older damaged leaves and/or very slow growing plants.


 - All things algae by Happi 

and yeah I know there's no miracle ratio because Joe's running a 3:1 N ratio from dry ferts and his tank is spotless of algae. Not sure what his tap N was.

I have other routines I wanna try in case things go south.




Better look of the above charts
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Dx_hA6-CJccRt_KtMHwUllcCmDraHpSrzZG47nQLE2s/edit?usp=sharing

I'm still messing with the idea of using Urea or NH4. only problem with urea is that my pH is at about 7.2 for 16hrs of the day. NH4, I'm just chicken for now lol.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Dennis I love the entire post. 

I have to read it over maybe 5 more times now to let it soak in!:wink2:

But first time through, my immediate thought is I need some of that Blyxa Novu in my life!!:grin2:



SingAlongWithTsing said:


> Blyxa Novu still hella red


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Greggz said:


> Dennis I love the entire post.
> 
> I have to read it over maybe 5 more times now to let it soak in!:wink2:
> 
> But first time through, my immediate thought is I need some of that Blyxa Novu in my life!!:grin2:


 @Xiaozhuang is Dennis, I'm Henry LOL

and I shortened the name wrong, it's Blyxa Novo / Blyxa Novoguineensis


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> Xiaozhuang is Dennis, I'm Henry LOL
> 
> and I shortened the name wrong, it's Blyxa Novo / Blyxa Novoguineensis


LOL my bad......sorry for that Henry!! No disrespect intended....I think you know I love following your tank and look forward to what comes next.

And whatever you call that Blyxa, I still need it.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Late Friday nite update:

Eh GDA again, less than the last few weeks but still annoying. Been getting more sun into the fish room in the past few weeks, might have to dial down the LEDs. Honestly I'm really tempted to just go back to 7.5 ppm PO4 weekly like I had about a year ago just to nuke the GSA, only problem is I was also dosing like 0.9 ppm Fe weekly at the time and didn't have to worry about precipitation.


Redid the center, felt that the Blyxa was wasted by being behind the Lobelia previously.


Cleaned up the S.Repens, it's been awhile since I even bothered with it.


Not sure how I feel about the Cambomba being here yet


Still need to figure out what to do with the bits of buces on the left corner


Limno went from hot pink to just pink (fert uptake chart below) and yeah I threw the Ludwigia Perunesis back there, idk what Im gonna do with em anymore.


Argentine sword probably gonna flower in a few weeks


Got curious with what my water column levels were from last week to this week


Things to keep in mind:
the 9.0622 ppm NO3 is 8 from tap and 1.0622 from KNO3
Hana Fe Colorimeter has an accuracy of ±0.04 ppm ±2% of reading so I'm either under dosing by 0.05 ppm Fe or over dosing by 0.03 ppm

Tempted to switch from v27e to v27j but I still want to chip away at that left over NO3


some of you are probably wondering:
why not just do bigger water changes? I can't, my Dension Barbs start freaking out when ever the water line drops below 40%. They start jumping and darting.
why not just do more frequent water changes? Besides my planted tank I have a 180 gallon turtle pond, a 180 gallon texas cihclid tank, a 55 gallon arowana grow out tank, and a gold fish tank that my uncle dumped on me, that 's a lot of water already lol.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Think you need to forget the Redfield ratio (10:1 N) Its no magic fix, trust me.

Though I agree green spot is not low PO4. High PO4 can sometimes kill it but its not the root cause. The root cause is unhappy plants, can be a number of reasons for that

The root cause of dust is usually too much NO3, K, or Fe. All three can bring it on. Ive never seen it with low dosing routines even if the plants arent happy. Dennis says the running joke in Asia is that GDA is and EI disease, lol. Because they never see it. 

Personally, I think your plants are still reeling from dosing so much Fe for so long. Stick with the current macros and give .06 (or less) a few more weeks

There is no detectable NO3 in my tap btw


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

burr740 said:


> Think you need to forget the Redfield ratio (10:1 N) Its no magic fix, trust me.
> 
> Though I agree green spot is not low PO4. High PO4 can sometimes kill it but its not the root cause. The root cause is unhappy plants, can be a number of reasons for that
> 
> ...


Have read this several times. In part, one of the reasons I have been lowering my dosing over the last few months. My weekly FE dosing is 0.45 - think I will leave that alone. NO3 and K - under 20ppm dosed weekly. I cannot actually "measure" the amount of GDA on the front glass, but there was a time when I would run the MagFloat over the front glass atleast every other day if not every day. Lately I can last 3 or 4 days before I clean the glass. So, I could reasonably believe the EI disease statement. But, FWIW, EI is intended to be non-limiting. Determining what your plants "need" can sometimes be a long process. Henry has the ability and skills to actually measure what is happening so in my opinion that would be more useful / accurate than just trying to read the tank / plant conditions. 



Will have to agree with Gregg - lot of very useful information in this journal!


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Immortal1 said:


> Determining what your plants "need" can sometimes be a long process.


3 weeks, 8 measurements of NO3, PO4, and Fe taken every 3 days.
Keep records of tests and record precisely what you are dosing.
Don't forget WC reduction added into the mix.

Multiple tanks is when it becomes a problem! >


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## Blacktetra (Mar 19, 2015)

While I've found the last couple pages of your journal extremely informational, I've been looking for an explanation I haven't found elsewhere and I thought I should ask you:

Plants require good flow for healthy growth, for reasons you are surely completely aware of. However, I can't find any explanation for how people grow bunches of plants (such as yours) in such tight groupings. Surely there is nearly zero flow underneath the top 1 inch or so of these stems? Do the plants feed most prominently through the newer growth? How do you prevent a bunch of leaf loss underneath there causing a boom in organic waste? In short: How do people grow such tight groupings?


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Blacktetra said:


> While I've found the last couple pages of your journal extremely informational, I've been looking for an explanation I haven't found elsewhere and I thought I should ask you:
> 
> Plants require good flow for healthy growth, for reasons you are surely completely aware of. However, I can't find any explanation for how people grow bunches of plants (such as yours) in such tight groupings. Surely there is nearly zero flow underneath the top 1 inch or so of these stems? Do the plants feed most prominently through the newer growth? How do you prevent a bunch of leaf loss underneath there causing a boom in organic waste? In short: How do people grow such tight groupings?


Flow, maintenance, and trickery in my case.

Current flow chart.

Had to brighten up the pic for the outflows to show.


On the front side of the tank I get enough flow for til at least 1" above the substrate, I mean there's still flow near the sub it's just weaker.
The flow gets weaker as you move towards the bottom left.

I have bottom leaf death with the Limnophila groupings on the left side of the tank, well the stems towards the center of that section. The ones in the front get enough flow to keep their bottom leaves and I use em to hide the ones in the center and back lol. 

Stems on the right side of the tank usually don't have any bottom leaf death, with the exception of perunesis because I screwed that plant up so badly (nutrient related).

As for the center groupings:
the Windelov and Java fern grouping is just sitting on egg crate (just think of the A from the avengers symbol).
the Blyxa is planted in a spot with 120~135 PAR. Actual PAR maybe lower when the Penthorum grows and provides a lil bit of shade.
Penthorum sedoides is at 70 (under the buce branch) to 130 PAR (behind the Blyxa)
the 3 groupings still get good flow even though it's weaker than the right side.



burr740 said:


> Personally, I think your plants are still reeling from dosing so much Fe for so long. Stick with the current macros and give .06 (or less) a few more weeks
> 
> There is no detectable NO3 in my tap btw


did you mean 0.6 Fe or 0.06 Fe weekly, because I don't think I can push it to 0.06 with how high my Ca is. This Week I'm sticking with v27e's Macros but bumping Fe from 0.2 to 0.25 weekly because I've notice the Limno are paler, every other plant hasn't shown any signs of changes yet.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Yeah I meant .6 per week

~1.3 PO4 and 4-6 K, if Im reading the chart right, seems incredibly low weekly totals. Macros can turn Limno pale just as bad and quick as Fe. I'd think about doubling both of those


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

What's interesting is that your water column numbers (NO3 35, PO4 5) seem pretty good. If anything, I would up P a bit.

I missed it, what is your weekly water change %?

And that Ca & Mg number is something I have no experience with. My guess is with those numbers so high, you might need a bit more of everything else to keep in balance. 

Similar to my tank. When my K was very high, needed more of everything else to stay in balance. I lowered K, and now need less of everything else. Thought is something similar to Liebligs law, but based on the maximum. When one element is high, you might need to base dosing on that to balance everything else. 

Just a thought. 

And with 125-130 PAR in spots, you have much less room for error in getting it right. 

But all in all, I have to say, love the presentation and whole concept of the tank. Everything about it is interesting to me.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Greggz said:


> What's interesting is that your water column numbers (NO3 35, PO4 5) seem pretty good. If anything, I would up P a bit.
> 
> I missed it, what is your weekly water change %?


50% every week


> And that Ca & Mg number is something I have no experience with. My guess is with those numbers so high, you might need a bit more of everything else to keep in balance.
> 
> Similar to my tank. When my K was very high, needed more of everything else to stay in balance. I lowered K, and now need less of everything else. Thought is something similar to Liebligs law, but based on the maximum. When one element is high, you might need to base dosing on that to balance everything else.
> 
> ...


Makes me wonder if the all the PO4 in that 1.228 ppm amount is being binded up to Mg or Ca and the plants cant extract it fast enough.

and yeah gonna be bumping PO4 back up this week immediately to see if that'll sort out the paleness in limno. Vin did tell me I should try doubling it from 3 to 6 ppm weekly a couple of days ago on Facebook to sort out Siamensis 53b's "pouting." 

Idk how reliable this chart is for aquatic plants but I might as well bump K back up to 10 ppm a week to see if it helps. 




> But all in all, I have to say, love the presentation and whole concept of the tank. Everything about it is interesting to me.


thanks


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

That is a really interesting chart! True or not for aquatic plants, lets assume for a moment it is. So it all starts with Boron and the chain reaction progresses from there - interesting. As Gregg stated, Liebligs law and EI were basically developed around the "minimum". I have thought for awhile that fertilizer dosing should / could be tied somewhat to that which most can't change - their tap water. 
Both of us have a higher than average calcium. If ratio's really do play a partial role then one should be able to start at Calcium and work backwards to, in part, figure out the rest of the dosing. Granted, it would be huge changes, but the Share your dosing thread has shown more than a few patterns. 

Interesting your comment about PO4. For some reason my tanks seem to be happier above 3 or 4ppm PO4 as opposed to being in the 1 or 2ppm PO4 range. Back to 5, 6 and 7 above. 

Wasn't this supposed to be an easy hobby?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Immortal1 said:


> That is a really interesting chart! True or not for aquatic plants, lets assume for a moment it is. So it all starts with Boron and the chain reaction progresses from there - interesting. As Gregg stated, Liebligs law and EI were basically developed around the "minimum". I have thought for awhile that fertilizer dosing should / could be tied somewhat to that which most can't change - their tap water.
> Both of us have a higher than average calcium. If ratio's really do play a partial role then one should be able to start at Calcium and work backwards to, in part, figure out the rest of the dosing.


Linn I think there is something to this. If you have one element that can't be changed, you may need to adjust based on that element. That's where RO water sure does come in handy.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Greggz said:


> Linn I think there is something to this. If you have one element that can't be changed, you may need to adjust based on that element. That's where RO water sure does come in handy.


Agreed!


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## Blacktetra (Mar 19, 2015)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> Idk how reliable this chart is for aquatic plants but I might as well bump K back up to 10 ppm a week to see if it helps.


 Wow, it would be fantastic to see how the chains of reactions form the actual visible signs of various deficiencies.
To, for example, identify that calcium deficiency looks like curled leaves specifically because without enough calcium the formative work of nitrogen is limited, resulting in deficiencies of GROWTH but not necessarily unhealthy colored growth, just warped growth.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Lot of wonky-ness. I should probably get new test kits. Anyone have a suggestion for a Nitrate one other than API? 



Somehow gained 10 ppm NO3 in the water column despite not dosing any for the week, makes me wonder if the plants are ejecting NO3 to try to balance itself with the water column. I know for damn sure I dont have enough stock in the tank to feed my plants with fish and snail waste. 8 tiny gold barbs, 5 full grown denison barbs, 1 juli cory, 1 panda cory, 2 otos, and an electric blue acara in 130 gallons of total water volume. I'm also pretty sure the amount of left over food isn't enough to produce enough ammonia for the plants.

eh still have GDA


thinned out the Lobelia Cardinalis Mini. Waiting for L.repens to orange up, Hygrophila sunset to pink up, Ceratopteris siliquosa to do anything



Threw the rest into the sump for now, lit by a weak Beamswork so we'll have to see how long it'll survive in there


removed the L.Repens at the top, filled the bottom with Cambomba, hoping it'll grow fast again when it finishes readjusting. This is my hail mary with the amount of time I have before my deadline.


I think I pissed off the Blyxa with the 0 ppm weekly KNO3 dose. Some leaves melted and it stopped putting out bulbs/flowers?


decided to clean up the Limno and Siamensis bushes


lot more leaf loss at the bottom than I thought so the bush ended up shorter than I originally planed



still need to figure out some stuff with siamensis, some of the other leaves I trimmed off showed signs of nitrogen deficiency despite the above chart numbers. Possible K too.


Bought a Jebao SCP-150 crossflow gyre to hopefully improve the flow along the bottom of the tank. Hoping it'll reduce bottom leaf death on the left side of the tank. I might make a horizontal spray bar that'll go about 9" down from the top on the right side of the tank to assist the gyre (tentative spot is the top left of the tank) if necessary.

Not sure where I'll be moving the Imagtarium power head I have yet (pulls air out of my overflow box). Currently it's behind the Argentine Sword. Definitely know I'm removing the Korallia 240, the damn thing is too loud imo.

With the gyre on the top left, main return top right, and horizontal spray bar right mid I should have close to a laminar flow that should help distribute ferts and co2 along the bottom of the tank better.

Video is of a Maxspect gyre, same concept though.





Tentative Fert plan for Mar 22nd ~ March 29th


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> Somehow gained 10 ppm NO3 in the water column despite not dosing any for the week, makes me wonder if the plants are ejecting NO3 to try to balance itself with the water column.


Huh, thats very interesting assuming the test is somewhat accurate. I dont know if plants could eject THAT much, and you werent dosing high levels to begin with right?

But here's something to chew on. How plants strive to maintain their inner balance between cations and anions (Mulder's chart relates to this in many ways) Pretty good quick summary -

Selectivity of Plant Nutrient Ion Uptake ? Botanicare Blog


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

burr740 said:


> Huh, thats very interesting assuming the test is somewhat accurate. I dont know if plants could eject THAT much, and you werent dosing high levels to begin with right?
> 
> But here's something to chew on. How plants strive to maintain their inner balance between cations and anions (Mulder's chart relates to this in many ways) Pretty good quick summary -
> 
> Selectivity of Plant Nutrient Ion Uptake ? Botanicare Blog


yeah idk if I trust my API test kit anymore lol, even if it's calibrated.

from: 
Prior to Oct 2018, anywhere from 24 ppm NO3 + tap to 30 ppm NO3 +tap for the past 2+ years 
Oct 2018 ~ to Mar 8th 2019 I was doing 15 ppm NO3 + tap so probably closer to 23 ppm weekly
Mar 8th to Mar 15th was 9.0622 ppm NO3 total (8 tap and 1.0622 NO3) weekly
Mar 15th to Mar 22nd was 8 ppm NO3 from tap only
Mar 22nd to Mar 29th thinking of 8 ppm tap + 6 ppm KNO3 for a weekly total of 14 ppm.


Unrelated note:
Looking back over my journal so far Ive learned that:
Perunesis hates low N or maybe low NO3. Dennis does well with low NO3 with it + aquasoil so idk and Vin said it prefers to take in nutrients from the substrate. Not sure if it hate's high levels of Mg (noticed it curled worst and worst when I dosed 10 ppm Mg on top of the 16 tap).
Limno Hippuroides loves high levels of ferts. The leaves were just more robust.
High K (30+ ppm weekly) caused those huge holes in my plants, or maybe high macros in general.
I can get away with with 1.0~1.1 ppm Fe weekly
I CAN'T get away with just tap NO3 lol


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Still think you need to center dosing around that high Ca level. Sit down with Mulder's chart and maybe that cation/anion chart too. Based on those, along with your first hand experience, try to figure out what needs to be higher or lower to strike a good balance.

Dennis has uber rich substrate with very high CEC (aquasoil on top of dirt) so you can throw any comparisons to his tank out the window. Those Romanian guys have convinced me that NOTHING needs specifically root ferts.

I just realized my 7 month old aquasoil 50 is still sucking in PO4. thought that was over. Few weeks ago I'd lowered PO4 to 3.6/week, down from 5.something. made a big positive difference in the sand tanks. Then the last few days started seeing lower leaf and stem melt in Stauro splatulata. Only seen this once before when the tank was new and PO4 was getting zero'ed out. Broke out the test and sure enough, the sand tanks hovering around 5 and the AS 50 showing barely 1.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

burr740 said:


> Still think you need to center dosing around that high Ca level. Sit down with Mulder's chart and maybe that cation/anion chart too. Based on those, along with your first hand experience, try to figure out what needs to be higher or lower to strike a good balance.


Yeah I might end up going back to high micros (not 1.2 ppm Fe high) because of that and because of this chart (hydroponics side) I found when I went back through my journal. 








8 hrs of the day I'm at 6.5, at least 13 hrs are 6.8+

I think originally I dropped my Macros down was to see if I can get better growth (+nothing inhibits N anyway I think), the ones that did noticeably better were AR Mini and L. sp Red mini.
Lowered K and higher micros fixing the holes was a happy coincidence. 



> Dennis has uber rich substrate with very high CEC (aquasoil on top of dirt) so you can throw any comparisons to his tank out the window. Those Romanian guys have convinced me that NOTHING needs specifically root ferts.


They have soft water too, and yeah can't for get the Romanians like Merian and that guy with the DC comics name on FB.

Not sure if I mentioned this here before but I planned on tearing down the tank after IAPLC and AGA and lay down a layer of clay and akadama or clay and pumice and then cap it off with BDBS. Might be more trouble than it's worth though.



> I just realized my 7 month old aquasoil 50 is still sucking in PO4. thought that was over. Few weeks ago I'd lowered PO4 to 3.6/week, down from 5.something. made a big positive difference in the sand tanks. Then the last few days started seeing lower leaf and stem melt in Stauro splatulata. Only seen this once before when the tank was new and PO4 was getting zero'ed out. Broke out the test and sure enough, the sand tanks hovering around 5 and the AS 50 showing barely 1.


was that dusty AS tank or the good AS one?


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

The good one, 50 gal


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Added the gyre, even at the lowest setting it's pretty damn strong. 100% was enough to lift up the Java fern street LOL

still have a 1.5~1.6 ph drop with the same injection rate, I think this is because my outflows are on the opposite end of the gyre.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

eh GDA still but at this point idk if I care anymore, like the spread is still the same amount but it isn't as thick




Parrot's feather next to the Cabomba Furcata. There's some Ludwigia Repens Ruben behind the Windelov, Panthorum, and Cabomba. 



Round 4? vs Ludwigia Perunesis /Glandulosa


Diatoms started showing up during the MgSO4 experiment, still haven't gotten rid of all of it yet


Moved w/e Staurogyene purple I could save to here, think one or 2 of the leaves are turning purple again


Was dosing this between 3/22 to 3/29


Might go back to this if the limno and Blyxa don't color up like before or might dose something between V28 and V28b


The V28 series is basically gonna be what worked before screwing around with Mg and lowering PO4


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

*Hardware update:*

Cleaned up cable octopus


New reactor but the same build (flows into an internal cone), switching from clear to solid blue to avoid algae growing in the reactor.


*Re-Plumb:*

Worked on the plumbing and re-wiring for 32hrs straight. Not shown is 2 returns going into 3/4" spray bars.


May replace the single 300-watt Eheim Jager with 2 150 watt heaters to save some space. Random stems in a 500ml cup with UNS soil.


200 Micron Filter Sock -> 20 PPI Poret Foam -> Lava Rock -> Pumice Stone
CO2 reactor exits into a 3" pvc cap and gets deflected into the main pump, might be removing the plastic pot scrubbers after re-seeding the bio. Tempted to keep em to block any CO2 from floating.


*Main Tank:*
Added a piece of manzanita I had laying around, not sure how I feel about it yet




Slapped some Hydrocotyle on it for now, there's UNS soil underneath Hydro



Limno still pale but at least they went from white to yellow, more buce shots




Still dealing with a diatom outbreak, dunno if the gyre had anything to with it. Gyre has been removed as of April 5th, swapped to double spray bars. It's too damn strong even at the lowest setting.


I ordered Limno Hippuroides and expected them to be emmersed but this looks like a different plant altogether


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

*Thursday Update:*
Got a couple of plants from Joe on Wednesday, decided to do maintenance early.
New plants to the tank: Ludwigia Pantanal and Nymphoides hydrophylla 'Taiwan' 
Beefing up: Ludwigia sp Red and Hyptis Lorentziana

GDA died down, dunno if it's due to switching half my N to Urea or plant density recovering. Swapped to 1 horizontal and 1 vertical spray bar for now.


Redoing the right side of the tank this week


Tore out most of the Dwarf Lobellia



From 6 stems 2 months ago to i didnt count how many, Hygro Polysperma Sunset.
Sp. Red from Joe on the left and some sp. Nantans on the right which I got from buceplant awhile back (I lost some of the stems, floated off to who knows where). Comparing growth rates and shape for now.
The new batch of Perunesis is doing alright.
Havent decided if I want the Hyptis in front of the Hygro or behind it yet, as much as I love the red to purple tops I friggin hate the node distance.
Had to split the Blyxa Novu into 3, fish kept knocking it out and it couldn't root properly.


Area between the 2 sticks is 32~ 60 PAR (due to brace, buce, and driftwood shade), didn't feel comfortable putting Ludwigia Sp Red (got em from Joe about a day ago) there even though it's a good spot for a focal point plant.


Pantanal after 1 day being in the tank. Ngl it quickly became one of my favorite plants. Hoping itll grow as fast in this tank as it does in softer water ones.


Argentine Sword, tank is 24.5" tall and the canopy is another 14.5"



Not sure what I wanna do with the Nymphoides hydrophylla 'Taiwan' yet, I know i want it on the left though.
Can probably start shaping Stellatus soon too.


Left side is a friggin mess right now in terms of composition, waiting for Limnophila Hippuroides to recover.


Post Maintenance side shot:


Nite time shots:




Current fert routine, probably my fave for now due to how easy it is to remember lol


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

*May 2nd, 2019 Update*

Still fighting some type of Fe/PO4/Mg related problem on the front branch of buces. weird brown precipation which I thought were diatoms but looking back I think it could be the 7 ppm PO4 interfering with the Fe again, happened before.
The GSA i'm not worried about, some leaves melted after about 1.5 years of good growth, not sure if it had anything to do with the stupid low dosing a couple of weeks ago (the 9ppm NO3 weekly, 1.3 PO4, 4.2 K, 0.2 Fe or/we it was).
Could be as simple as bad husbandry, I feed near the front where the problem branch is.







The back branch doesnt seem to have any problems yet


PAR data for the curious:


Hvae to cut back on Macros or Up my Micros again, 2 ragged hole showed up so far (not including buce hades, recent addition via Joe). I think it might be a Manganese deficiency caused by too high of PO4.



GDA going strong



After a good scraping



Pantanal growing a lil leggy 


Threw in water lettuce in the sump to see if it'll make a difference in the algae in the main tank, might try a Triton method like approach on the tank


Switching to this routine from May 2nd on wards. A similar routine worked before (15/3/15/1.5) with the exception of Ludwigia Perunesis/Glandulosa and Siamensis 53b.


With this routine Im hoping to see if:
If Perunesis/Glandulosa and Siamensis prefer 1:1 of NO3 and Urea to 100% NO3. Previous twisted young leaves and dead old leaves could of been something as simple as not using the right source of N.

If 5 ppm weekly PO4 will cause that weird diatom like algae (maybe it's iron precipitation? ) on the buce and a few others. I know 7 ppm did but 3 ppm didnt.

In the even that most of the plants start dropping bottom leaves than I know 0.5 ppm Boron is over my my tank's max.

But here's a huge potential problem for the above test routine, I've been getting an excess amount of Fe lately. Previously my tank was zapping away 1.12 ppm Fe on average over the past 8 or so months (even when I was dosing 1.5 ppm Fe weekly).

4 potential causes of this excess are: 
1. Higher PO4 dosing compared to previous routines (7 vs 3) causing a Fe uptake inhibition.
2. Lava rock leeching out Fe (might be unlikely, don think 10lbs of lava rock can leech out 0.4 ppm weekly)
3. Pumice leeching out Fe (might be unlikely, don think 10lbs of pumice can leech out 0.4 ppm weekly).
4. Ludwigia repens was the major Fe consumer and removing it caused lower uptake results (removed on March 23rd though).


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

_*Wednesday update:
*_
*Plant update:
*
Limnophila bouncing back


1 of 3 Pantanal finally adjusted, waiting on the side shoots of the other 2 originals. Java fern is just a temporary filler plant, pulled it out from the pond.


Around 3 days prior I pulled the buce off the branches, slapped some hydrocotyle on it and hydrocotyle slowly developed the brown dust. I'm pretty damn sure it's a husbandry or flow issue now. Cleaned out the return section of the sump. If the brown dust starts showing up again I'm gonna swap out the spray bar on the top left for a 1" elbow.


Hades is still fine, no brown dust.


After staring at the branch for around 3 days I decided to re-add the buce


test fitting the buce


Actual placement, i still have some bits of buces laying around in separate containers. May use em to fill in the gaps later on. 
And yeah I'm keeping the hydrocotlye between the buce and the driftwood branch for now, curious to see what it'll look like in a few days. If any food or detritus will float up it'll get caught in the hydrocotyle instead of the buce, protecting the buce.



oh, the brown dust disappeared while the buce were sitting in some small containers for around 2 days. and the leaves that melted earlier from last week were most likely caused by me going crazy with the h2o2, no more melting this week.


extras of green wavy (left) and unknown/arrogant blue? (right)


*Hardware update*
swapped out the cheap stainless steel check valves you see all the time on evilbay/amazon/lfs for a clippard. My flow meter shot up from 40 cc/min to 100 cc/min (where's it's supposed to be at), ph drop didnt change. Makes me wonder if the stainless steel one was broken in some way.


*Fert update*
no changes


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Pulled out the driftwood and switched the tank to farm mode since IAPLC entries for this year are done. planning a new layout, will probably be rescaping in august.

As much as I like 3# something seems off about it. Gonna be looking for more driftwood on tuesday.


Random piece I got from my cousin, not sure what type of wood it is.


Debating if I should swap over from Black Diamond to w/e sand homedepot has, also debating swapping form a black background to a white or frosted one with a LED back light (currently looking at the Current Serene kit)

If thing's go right, I might be swapping over to a 180 gal by August also.

*Plant updates:*
1 of the 3 Blyxa Novu is coloring up again


30"+ TEMPORARY Buce wall. and no this wasn't in my IAPLC entry, I kinda wish it was now though lol


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Wall looks good. You might as well try a proper Dutch while you got the wall going and the wood out. AGA deadline is usually mid-Sept. 

Three months is about the right amount of time. You just need somewhere to put species you dont use


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

burr740 said:


> Wall looks good. You might as well try a proper Dutch while you got the wall going and the wood out. AGA deadline is usually mid-Sept sometime. that's 3 months, about the right amount of time really


I have around 33 types of plants in here right now, I have to cut down to 18 right? 1 per 10 cm?

1. Bacopa Caroliniana
2. Bucephalandra Theia Blue
3. Bucephalandra Arrogant Blue
4. Bucephalandra Wavy Green
5. Bucephalandra Hades
6. Hygrophila Serpyllum
7. Hygrophila Pinnatifida
8. Hygrophila Polysperma Sunset
9. Penthorum Sedoides
10. Limnophila Aromatica 
11. Limnophila Aromatica Mini
12. Ludwigia Glandulosa 
13. Ludwigia Repens Ruben
14. Ludwigia Sp Red Mini
15. Staurogyne Repens
16. Anubias Micro
17. Windelov Java Fern
18. Java Fern
19. Myriophyllum aquatic
20. Alternanthera Reineckii Mini
21. Lobelia Cardinalis Dwarf
22. Hydrocotyle Tripartita Japan
23. Vallisneria Spiralis Leopard
24. Proserpinaca Palustris - Maryland
25. Nymphoides hydrophylla 'Taiwan'
26. Echinodorus sp. "Argentinensis"
27. Pogostemon Stellatus "Octopus"
28. Pogostemon Downnoi Helferi
29. Hyptis Lorentziana
30. Ceratopteris Siliquosa
31. Blyxa Japonica
32. Rotala Coin Leaf?
33. Rotala ?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

3 species per foot, most official rules say 2 more is acceptable if "deemed appropriate" by the judges

Wall plants/moss dont count

That's a wide selection to choose from! lots of good colors and contrasts to be had.. Most importantly pick what grows best, plant health is paramount.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

went to ck fishworld on thursday and bought some nice looking manzanita







some combos with just the new wood





re-post of last week's


vs this week's combo of old and new


kinda like last week's more but i dont really want to newly acquired pieces to go to waste either


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Still in farm mode






won an auction for rotala macranda mini type 4, bit of hair algae in it but w/e. most of it rinsed out pretty easily, I have some snails in there to snack on it in the mean time.



the cleaner bunch in the tank


been prepping for the next big scape:
Sifted 2 25 qt bags of

result is 2 buckets of fluffy soil and 2 buckets of bark and tree bits

washed 50 lb of Safe T sorb, I have another 100 just in case i need more


not sure what I want to use for the cap yet:
choices are: STS, Carib Sea Super Natural Moonlight Sand, Quikrete Sand, and Black Diamond (current)


as nice as the Moonlight sand is, I'm worried about it compacting if I decide to use more than 1" of it. It's a very fine sand imo.
don't have much experience using STS as a cap, kinda worried that it's too light (weight).

Tentative plan:


STS at the bottom most layer to pull ferts into the soil, this is assuming STS's cec is stronger than the soil's.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

South Carolina topsoil's CEC is about 24
Turface 30-41
STS est montmorlite clay 27-40 depending 
http://www.sfwcf.com/pam/pam2c.pdf
pg21


BUT see below


> UNIVERSAL ABSORBENT CLAY. Safe T Sorb™ is an all-purpose absorbent designed for the quick clean up of water, oil, and grease. Made from montmorillonite, a naturally occurring mineral with superior absorption ability, Safe T Sorb premium absorbent clay is now available in a leak-resistant, moisture-proof, 50 pound poly bag. Pallet purchases include 40 bags.
> This product is made in the USA Safe T Sorb is made in the USA


And:


> Two laboratory grade montmorillonite samples with CEC of 71 (montmorillonite A) and 22 (montmorillonite B) mmol/100 g respectively were used in this study.


Problem w/ "natural" products..










http://www.soilquality.org.au/factsheets/cations-and-cec-tas



> Humus has a CEC two to five times greater than montmorillonite clay


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

@SingAlongWithTsing an email I received from EP Minerals declares SafeTSorb CEC rating is 33.6


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

I've been following along with this tank in the shadows, haven't made it official until now. 

I'm liking that rich substrate you've got planned, which sparked me to finally post. I'm certainly following along (I think the rich sub is where I'm heading too next...)


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> won an auction for rotala macranda mini type 4, bit of hair algae in it but w/e. most of it rinsed out pretty easily, I have some snails in there to snack on it in the mean time.
> 
> 
> 
> the cleaner bunch in the tank


Hmm whys the bottom half leaves so big? Is that in the midst of transitioning?


----------



## gjcarew (Dec 26, 2018)

I use worm castings and activated carbon to boost CEC. I've never found a reason not to just let the soil layer mineralize on its own in the tank. You do get a pretty steep pH drop in the beginning but the addition of oyster shell or crushed coral in the substrate layer can help with that. The oyster shell also provides an additional source of Ca and Mg, and CEC increases with pH so it's all around a good idea.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> Still in farm mode
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I used organic soil topped with turface then black diamond sand. I really wish I had left out turface... it very easily comes up when replanting because it’s so light and I doubt it adds anything to my plants. It’s also extremely dusty which will increase chance for anaerobic pockets.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

ipkiss said:


> Hmm whys the bottom half leaves so big? Is that in the midst of transitioning?


not sure, always the chance the guy got mini butterfly and some unstable of macranda mixed up



gjcarew said:


> I use worm castings and activated carbon to boost CEC. I've never found a reason not to just let the soil layer mineralize on its own in the tank. You do get a pretty steep pH drop in the beginning but the addition of oyster shell or crushed coral in the substrate layer can help with that. The oyster shell also provides an additional source of Ca and Mg, and CEC increases with pH so it's all around a good idea.


I'm just worried about stuff leaking into the water column and causing an algae out break. the fish room gets ambient light from 5 am til like 8 pm, family doesnt want to switch to darker blinds.

my starting kh is 11, not too worried about my ca and mg yet. 80 ca ppm and 16 ppm mg out the tap lol.



vvDO said:


> I used organic soil topped with turface then black diamond sand. I really wish I had left out turface... it very easily comes up when replanting because it’s so light and I doubt it adds anything to my plants. It’s also extremely dusty which will increase chance for anaerobic pockets.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


do you remember how thick your layers were?

not sure how worried i should be about how much STS will break down over time but this came to mind when I read your post


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Tank is looking great man


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> do you remember how thick your layers were?
> 
> not sure how worried i should be about how much STS will break down over time but this came to mind when I read your post



I used 1” soil (1.5” before compaction), 1.5” turface, 1.5-2” BDBS cap


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

was playing around with the hardscape during maintenace. planting this might be a pita the more i think about it, tank is up against the wall. some of the older wood is super dark too, kinda bugs me. dark wood + black background, bad combo.




got bored and cut apart one of the bigger pieces of wood to make this bonsai scape, will be on the look out for at least 5lbs of ohko stones


only problem i can think of with going with a bonsai style scape is how much open space most of em seem to have. Kinda think this would conflict with using a soil tank, I feel like I wont be using it to its full potential.

liquid super glue + cigarette filters. Glued bits will be covered with an aquasoil and super glue mix if I choose to go with this scape when I do the rescape.


as for the update on the potting mix, not much going on there

sifted out some of the floatier bits of the peat? not sure what to do with this


3rd bag of potting mix drying in my spare pond


the stats from the bag


all 3 bags were about 50% processed forest products

the soil in my yard is 70% sand, 25% silt, 5% clay or something around there.

clarity test after 5 days



left to right
1st: eco complete cap on soil
2nd: safe-t-sorb/soil/lava rock
3rd: safe-t-sorb/yard soil/lava rock
4th: safe-t-sorb/ 50-50 potting mix and yard soil/lavarock


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Tuesday Noon




Tear down, detritus everywhere. Flow in the scape got worst as time went on due to overcrowding
2x 27 gal totes, 4 gal bucket, and 8 shoe boxes of plants

Tuesday Nite


Bottom to top: 1" of STS, 0.75~1" of 50/50 STS+Potting Mix, 0.75~1" of Potting Mix

Wednesday Morning


Washed as much of the old BDBS as possible, capped with at least 1+"

Wednesday Noon, start of day 1?


Wednesday Nite


Thursday Morning




Red ch only cuz I forgot to turn on the blue for these shots.
Not happy about the buce placement, might rearrange next week or the one after
Still have to plant the left, thinking of using a Serphyllum carpet for now.

Might have to downgrade to a Jebao crossflow scp-120 or even a scp-90, 150 is too damn strong for stem plants.
Need to figure out whats wrong with the substrate return lines, pretty sure most of it is coming out the pipe under the over flow box. 
Initial idea was for them to aid the gyre pump, pushing detritus along the bottom to under the gyre and having it flow into the overflow box. Would also help with nutrient delivery to the plants lower in the water column

shout outs to my dad for helping me get the substrate in, my mom for having drinks ready, and gorilla glue for gluing my index finger when i sliced it open an algae scrapper and bled all over the place Tuesday nite.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

You are a dedicated Planted Tanker my friend!

That looks like a LOT of work.

Well done and looking forward to seeing how things go with the new substrate.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

What a great scape! I like how much negative space exists right now. Are you going to do any other major structures or is it all plants from here on out?


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Greggz said:


> You are a dedicated Planted Tanker my friend!
> 
> That looks like a LOT of work.
> 
> Well done and looking forward to seeing how things go with the new substrate.


hell yeah it was lol, 12 hr straight each day.

I have high hopes so far. Current pH as of 10:35 am pst is 6.9 vs 7.26 pH when it was just BDBS. Filled the tank last nite at roughly 5 pm pst, so the STS or soil lowered the pH by 0.36 in about 17hrs.

edit: 11 dkH to 9 dkH



minorhero said:


> What a great scape! I like how much negative space exists right now. Are you going to do any other major structures or is it all plants from here on out?


just plants for now, unless I find a few good pieces of mazanitia. If those pieces conflict the with upper branch with the buce I can just pop that whole thing off easily.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

weird bio/protein film at the top for the past weekish


Strongly considering moving the overflow box to the left back of the tank to fix the bio-film but that'll require at least a day of work. would have to cut out the right side of the bottom panel the sump is sitting on. Not sure if the vibrations would cause any problems while I'm doing that.

Another option is too hide add more return lines and hide em under the tank braces.

A smaller gyre pump to replace the 2 power heads isnt out of the question. My SCP-150 destroys the bio film but it can also rip out the stems on the middle and right side of the tank lol.

top shot


side shots



AR Mini making a recovery


weird brown algae is back, gonna need to figure out a way to block sun light from hitting the tank while letting it in the room.




and yeah I'm pretty sure it has something to do with ambient light, when I blacked out the room for IAPLC 2019 shots with my previous scape the algae died off/never came back after cleaning the plants.

random plant shots




Sp Red doing better for me in the soil than it did in 100% BDBS


not sure what rotala this is but at least it's not dying anymore


trying to repair a messed up stem of perunesis


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> weird bio/protein film at the top for the past weekish



Sure it isn't algae..?
I get this oily slick look once in awhile on my 40 b

Seems to be a really fine hair type algae..and not the plant invasive type.. afaict..that strings off everything..
gluteraldehyde makes short order of it..though most can just be gathered off the surface..


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

cleaned out the filter foam blocks today in the sump.



jeffkrol said:


> Sure it isn't algae..?
> I get this oily slick look once in awhile on my 40 b
> 
> Seems to be a really fine hair type algae..and not the plant invasive type.. afaict..that strings off everything..
> gluteraldehyde makes short order of it..though most can just be gathered off the surface..


ran a fish net through the top today before maintenance, no algae.


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## FischAutoTechGarten (Jul 11, 2003)

*Tsing's 135 Hybrid*

Why do you refer to it as a Hybrid?


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

ODwyerPW said:


> Why do you refer to it as a Hybrid?


oh, the old scape (2018 and before) was a dutch/nature hybrid or an attempt at one lol


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Been awhile:

Random crypt, might be nurii?


Cabomba close ups

 

sp Red doing well, best i've grown in like 3 years.



Limno getting big, about the equivalent of the growth I got when I was using the high end of EI


apparently I can grow Acmella repens, honestly though my water would be too hard for it


random shot of the buce mix


swapped to a clear elbow, will probably swap to a black coupler at the bottom. reason I'm choosing black over clear is because there's teflon tape holding the clear pipe and elbow to the coupler, they're in metric.


blyxa novu took a beating from the gold barbs and shading the past few months, at least there's hints of red/pink coming back








fts


current fert routine


ferts from July 17th til August 1st. Had a stupid amount of GDA with this +higher temps (82+ F)


still fighting diatoms, I'll give it another month before I decide to hit the tank with chemi clean


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Looking good man. I like the wood a lot better offset like that than how it used to be.

Novo in a shark cage,lol


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## Sarpijk (Aug 17, 2015)

The crypt looks like Cryptocoryne Undulatus.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Eh still figuring out some algae things


Buce shots during water change:





Buce shots, submerged:




Got some new plants in, weather's a lil bit cooler now but it's still risky for me to order more stuff.

This will be round 2 with the Bacopa Colorota (misplaced my stems the first time) and Alternanthera Varigated (killed it with some fert experiments the first time). Round 3 with Staurogyne Purple (shaded to death the first 2 times).


Persicaria Kawagoeanum and Pogostemon Kimberley (to the right of the pic), temporary placement.

Acmella Repens seems to really like the dirt substrate


FTS:

Diatoms are slowly dying back, might toss some purigen in sometime in the next 2 weeks to help with the DOC from the substrate. I think that might be aiding (not sure if it's that cause) the GDA, GSA, and brown diatoms.
I honestly think of my Gold Barbs didn't eat my snail population the diatom phase would of been done by now lol. Current clean up crew consists of 1 Amano Shrimp, 2 Otocinclus, 1 Panda Corycat, and very few ramshorns and pond? snails.

Gonna be adding more bio media too, and I have a feeling that the evaporation in my sump might be killing off some of my bacteria with my current sump layout.

Ceratopteris Siliquosa is on the list of plants Im considering removing. Up close it looks alright but far away it looks a giant bright green blob in the center of the tank.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

spent like 8 hrs on the tank today:

*7am PST *
End of the week green dust algae, and yes it covered the side glass too. and yes there are diatoms on the glass too.
 

The only good looking batch of buce on the branches


PAR reading for the good looking batch of buce, the algae infested area was 300~325 PAR lol


Gold barbs munching away at the buce flower



Diatom Covered Limno, pretty damn sure having too much DIRECT flow is blowing off/damaging the periphyton layer. High flow + slow velocity = good / ok (e.g. 1" elbow at the end of a 3/4" return line), High flow + high velocity = rough time (my Imagitarium power heads). a bit worried about the paleness too.


Not pictured, me scrapping algae with a scrapper in 1 hand and an air line tube in the other to siphon out said algae. Cleaning out the sump took a majority of the 8hrs

*Re-scape *
~28" Acmella Repens, top 6 or so inches is emmersed growth


pulled out a stupid amount of Hygrohila Sunset, unfortunately I cant get the tops as pink as I want in the current location or it might possibly due to my fert regime.

Moved AR Mini to the right front corner for now


Novo still in the shark cage


Random Buce clump shot


Cleaned the branch as best as I could with what I had in hand, moved some Buce Green Wavy from the Buce wall mesh to the branch


on the left


Moved Pogo Kimberley to a spot with more light, Persicaria Kawagoeanum is behind it for now



The Limno is behind the Cabomba for now and the L Rubin is behind the Limno.
need to tighten the Cambomba grouping again


Side shot, need to clean those elbows tomorrow


Full tank shot

I am super tempted switch some of the substrate at the front for some white sand but eh, need more time to think about it

Fert Routine from Aug 28th ~ idk when yet

lowering K to see if it'll reduce the GDA
lowering P because raising it didnt prevent new GSA


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

*3 Days ago
*
Ripped out the substrate outflow lines, no animals died in the process


Right now I'm using the 2nd option. may switch to the 3rd later in the month.


The same nite, cleared up the next morning


*Today*
most of the diatoms on the upper area of the tank disappeared, still got that weird funky cyano-like algae on the driftwood. Someone told me to get some ADA Bacter 100 and coat it to kill it, Ill have to see if i can get some for cheap.

*General plant update*
AR Mini, not perfect but better


Novo


Something screwy going on with the Hygro sunset after i moved it 


Persicaria Kawagoeanum, Pogo kimberly, and Staurogyne Purple seem to finally have adjusted.



Something screwy with some of the buces, some leaves fell and Ive noticed it's usually this part of the leaf that melted. Really hoping it was caused by mechanical damage rather than some type of nutrient deficiency.


----------



## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> pulled out a stupid amount of Hygrohila Sunset, unfortunately I cant get the tops as pink as I want in the current location or it might possibly due to my fert regime.


What do you suggest to get your H Sunset pink? I've got a lot in my low tech tank, so would like to know if there are any lighting or fert tricks I can do to get it it's pinkest.

Thanks!


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Desert Pupfish said:


> What do you suggest to get your H Sunset pink? I've got a lot in my low tech tank, so would like to know if there are any lighting or fert tricks I can do to get it it's pinkest.
> 
> Thanks!


high PAR and low nitrates. but since youre low tech i would just move it to where ever your light is strongest.

200-ish PAR 



300-ish PAR, close up of my IAPLC/AGA entry.



800-ish PAR, it was a lot pinker up til like a month ago. even pinker than the ones in my tank. This is from my outdoor pond. It just gets the water from my tank every 2 weeks


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

*Re-scape the left side of the tank today*


*Close ups before rescape*



Novo being way too shaded/crowded




Lobelia too hidden


Above shot planning


Bacopa roots still good 


*Rescape*





*After Maintenance*





*Right side*
Tulandensis adapting too hard water


Rubin




*FTS*


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

GDA 6 days after the rescape



*PAR Numbers*
Measuring where the plants start shifting in colors (except the buce), these aren't at substrate numbers.

Blyxa Novoguineensis


I think it's closer to 210~220 (at sub), couldn't put the Seneye lower without crushing the buce there

Speaking of buces


278 PAR. The flow's velocity isnt as high over here, to the right of it some Limnophila and Cabomba.

More Buce


191 PAR but it isnt doing as good as the other batch, flow's velocity might be a lil high. Nothing is shielding this batch from high flow. Damaged pheriphyton layer mayber?

Hyptis Lorentziana


238 PAR, 200ish for the shorter stem on the left.

Persicaria kawagoeanum


198 PAR

Alternanthera Reineckii Rosefolia?


115 PAR, I think 2 stems might be stunted. Not sure if it's light related.

Alternanthera Reineckii Mini


closer to 100 PAR imo (Idk why i didn't put the PAR meter at sub here lol). Mini's doing crappy again, might be because the area around it is super overgrown

Hygrophila Sunset

120 PAR

No FTS yet, that's for tomorrow after maintenance and possible right side rescape this week.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

40cc/min air is about 32cc/ min CO2 AFAICT..varies by pressure though..

Personally.. speed fittings are NOT my favorite..

OPP's landed on first page.. ignore..


----------



## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Having 300, 600 or 900 PAR is not as significant matter as the total amount of exposure time a day.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

got bored of the scape after ~2 months

last pic before the tear down


chipped off the old bark a few days ago on some old pieces


removing some of the sub in the front. trying to get as close to a 3:1 ratio for the viewable area on the front pane



old abs base of the odl scape


mud bomb


scaping partially blind


spare sunsun to help clear up the tank




blyxa's pissed








FTS as of today, gonna grow out the Ludwigia sp Red and Hygro Sunset in the back and see what happens
might have to turn down the center light 60/60 to 40/40. the over lap is making look hella bright and purple on camera. most of the previous photos were 60/60 left, 40/40 center, 60/60 right


not sure how i feel about the wood on the left side, think im gonna keep em in there til i find something i like
this was the concept / practice scape before deciding the final-ish harscape going in the tank


couldnt fit everything in the tank the way i wanted due to some height restrictions (4" sub in the back). if i had a rimless or acrylic tank (no top brace to obstruct the view of the top of the tank) then yeah chances are it would of worked out but eh, maybe I'll care more when I upgrade tanks.
even though i mapped out the temp scaping dojo for 72" x 18" width i think this hardscape would of worked better in a 72" x 24."


----------



## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

I think you should leave the wood as it is because it looks flipping terrific. 

Will be great if you can keep bits of the plant groups trimmed so a few portions of the wood are always visible.


----------



## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


>


That mock up area shows some serious dedication. 

I like the new layout.

Like mentioned above, I would keep things trimmed enough that the wood remains part of the scape. 

What's new with dosing/light?


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Greggz said:


> That mock up area shows some serious dedication.
> 
> I like the new layout.
> 
> ...


thanks, and that's the current plan for now.
I recently slapped together a 73" x 26" table for a scaping dojo, still need to figure out something more stable for the side panels. the old table in that pic is 60" x something.

nothing changed much changed with lighting:
Red Channel % / Blue Channel % configuration
back in July I was using 60/40, 40/30, 60/40
September 18th: 60/60, 40/40, 60/60
October 2nd and October 3rd: 60/60, 60/60, 60/60
October 4th: back to 60/60, 40/40, 60/60

upped the blue channel to try to get more color out of some plants. [Reference]
might go back and adjust a bit later on if the PAR doesnt seem even.

all the par numbers from last week was 60/60, 40/40, 60/60.

Ferts, still using: 



*Random thoughts:*
The 3 changes I'm considering to deal with the GDA on the glass are:
1.


> Lowering Micros to somewhere between 0.42~0.52 ppm Fe weekly


maybe I'm just dosing too much for the current plant selection. I know at least 0.39 ppm Fe gets zapped away weekly, that mean's at least 0.24 is floating around somewhere doing who knows what.

2.


> Lowering NO3 to 5 ppm via ferts weekly.


according to salifert I have anywhere between 10 (High sensitivity reading) and 25 ppm NO3 in my tap water. 
City's Water CCR says there's an avg of 24.88 ppm NO3 in the water. [Link to water report]
Calibrated API says I have about 8 ppm. 
idk what to believe/ trust lol.

I'm kinda hesitant about doing this because I've gotten some weird cyano/GSA hybrid algae on the driftwood before and some buce leaves. Like it looks like cyano but it's stuck to some buces like GSA.
e.g.



3.


> Lowering PO4 to 1.4 ppm via ferts weekly.


I'm always reading 5+ at the end of the week even though I only dose 2.87 ppm.



> What about the GSA on some older leaves?


eh most of em were already there between scapes



> ever figured out what caused the damaged petiole and base of leaves?


stopped happening after I stopped dosing 7 ppm PO4 weekly, correlation =/= causation though

I might wait a couple of weeks before deciding to do anything cuz I changed a stupid amount of water.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Blyxa, dunno if I can get it to be a crazy red like before unless I start doing something drastic with NO3



Ludwigia sp White, not much progress so far (only been a week though). Can't tell if it's dying yet lol



Kimberly turning pink 


Limnophila Hippuroides finally turning pink again. Only 2 of em are turning pink so far but some progress is better than no progress. Unfortunately I don't remember if these were from Aquarium Plants Factory or Planted Aquariums Central


Cabomba, wish I can get it redder like a couple of months ago


Not sure about the Persicaria kawagoeanum being in the back center


Anubias


Buce hedge



Ludwigia Sp Red

FTS


The hornwort in the dead center is on the chopping block, sometimes it looks like an algae blob in photos and sometimes it's not noticeable. 
Still looking for something to replace the AR Rosefolia in the center. Someone suggested Limno Rugosa awhile back.
If the Ludwigia Sp White doesnt work out I think I might try Nasea Gold again. Also contemplating moving the Blyxa to the Sp White's spot.

[IMG]https://imgur.com/y4qvSB2h.jpg[/IMG]
On the nutrients side of things, I'm thinking of bumping my K for better nutrient transport, I have plenty of everything else. Thinking 1.5 ppm daily which would bring the total to 13.5 ppm weekly (10.5 ferts, 3 tap), it'll be lower than Mg for the majority of the year.

1. Boron: I'm already dosing a lot
2. Silicon: Probably have it in tap already
3. Calcium: A lot in tap, at least 64+
4. Nitrogen: Between fish food, tap (8~25 ppm), and ferts I have plenty
5. Magnesium: A lot in tap, 16~21
6. Phosphorus: Fish food and ferts, should be plenty. If the K doesnt work out I'll bump this too but not above 5 ppm, 7 ppm was too much.
7. Carbon: I have like a 1.5~1.6 pH drop, should be plenty. I have decent flow now too so distribution isnt much of a problem.
8. Potassium: tap supposedly doesnt have more than 3 ppm, so yeah probably my limiting factor. Not to mention my Ca and Mg might be interfering with the absorption.

Not sure if I wanna use KCl or continue with K2SO4.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

*IAPLC 2019 - Rank 831 - Autumn Forest*

Lot of pics, spoiler brackets to not kill anyone's mobile data plan lol



Spoiler


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Blyxa Novoguineensis



Color on the Blyxa looks deeper from above for w/e reason


Under trimmed the Rotala, over trimmed the L. Sp. Red


Right side's a mess, thinking of switching the positions of the Penthorum Sedoides and Cabomba Furcata 


Center's also a mess, idk why Ludwigia Ovalias grows so slow for me. Staurogyene purple still messed up from the rescape


Drain







FTS


need to work on re-sloping the back, triangular style-ish
strongly debating if i want to replace the front center area with white sand
no changes to fert routine except bumping the K to 10.5 ppm weekly from ferts. and i also found out I was injecting co2 less than usual for the past 5-ish months lol, ~83 cc/min instead of my usual ~100 cc/min


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

After looking back through city's tap report I think it's time to gamble, again

As for 2010's CaCO3, I think the city might have screwed up reporting it (they listed 20.25 ppm).

I'm 1:1 on gambling so far.
15/3/15/1.5 was ok, got some crazy colors from Cabomba Furcata and Limno, not sure if it was related to the high micros though.
1.0622/1.288/1.2/0.2 was a complete failure, killed the Limno and severely damaged a lot of stuff.

New routine starting today 10/30

The amount of S is kinda concerning but eh, if I get enough flow into the sub do I have to worry?
If everything dies, I might just scrap the scape and start over lol.

I want to try to take advantage of the stupid amount of NO3 my city tap has. As I have mentioned before, the Salifert NO3 test kit reads 25 ppm with the normal test and 10 ppm with the high calibration. I'm pretty much throwing out the API NO3 calibrations, we'll see if this bites me in the ass.

Random shots before the experiment







FTS


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Nov 6th update:

still gda even without dosing kno3, got too much in my tap lol



was planning on only moving the blyxa to spot 1 or 2




ended up tearing up the tank again



white sand on the left and planning a montecarlo on the right


former tripartia carpet, was a pita to clean every week


blyxa's dusty and pissed, hair algae was on it for awhile now, dunno if the purigen helped with the hair algae in the tank at all


post-rescape, played around with some exposure settings on my phone's camera








fts




i should probably get one of those tiny hob canister filters to pick up some of the peat dust from the soil

as for ferts, switched the micro ratio to 1.4x of Joe's / Burr740's


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

That latest rendition looks GREAT! Really like the space with exposed substrate on the left too.


----------



## Janci (Aug 21, 2019)

I like this new layout.
It clears things up a little but and is more pleasing to the eye.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Emptied the 125, wasnt happy with the sub limiting how i can rescape and moved everything to a spare 55 gallon.Was leeching too much of something from the sub and causing some hair algae issues, I want to say it's organics from w/e is in the compost of the Miracle gro performance organics container mix but i dont have any solid proof of that

55 gal set up
55 gallon acrylic, extremely scratched up
24" [strike]Beamswork FSPEC[/strike] yescom led 
30" Beamsowrk DA?
SunSun 304
JBL pro-flora atomizer
100% Black Diamond for the sub



Lost a lot of color in the past 3 days, rip pinks on the the bacopa colorota and the orange on w/e rotala i had




Buce recovering, most of the hair algae disappeared



Back to the 125





left space in the back for plants and cleaning.
might have to raise all of the hardscape 1" higher due to the the plastic rim, that should be fun :|
planning on making boxes with some eggcrate (gluing the pieces together with pvc glue). would have to do this after finalizing and gluing (pond foam or cig filters and super glue) the hardscape to the ohko stone

may change the background to one of those fancy current usa led backgrounds. it's only a "may" right now cuz idk if amazon lost my package 

substrate: thinking pumice and vermiculite base, pumice for the bacteria and vermiculite for the cec. Vermiculite can have anywhere between 100 and 150 meq/100g for cec and it's not something can leach organics. capping with Black diamond. front area of the tank I might go with pool filter sand or w/e looks nice from Homedepot/Lowes.

debating if I wanna move to canister filters or add baffles to my sump. 

sump pros: hide all my equipment, extra water volume, can use my adjustable D/C pumps to save on electricity, easy to clean
sump cons: visible overflow box, may have to change plumbing due to the hardscape (flow patterns)

canister pros: can move anywhere I want, glass hard ware nearly invisible
canister cons: cleaning the damn thing lol, most of the cheaper ones are still using A/C tech / not adjustable

either choice I have to make some canopy and stand changes. I'm honestly considering building a new stand but im not sure yet


----------



## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

A pumice base would be great for tons of bacteria. Kinda weird to cap it in sand. The rocks will eventually rise to the surface. Always seems to happen to me. 

I'm a hardcore sump guy. The only upside to the canisters is you dont have to worry about the overflow as much on vacation. Overflow boxes losing siphon always worried me.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Been awhile

Sump Renonvation





Lifting the hardcsape




Vermiculite, about 0.25"


Saf-T-Sorb, 0.75" +


Logic behind choises:
Vermiculite for the high cec
Saf-t-Sorb for the pore spacing and natural-ish look

Random Plant shots







Cloudy FTS, hopefully the cloudiness goes away by next week.


Things I still need to do:
Cut out one side of the canopy for overflow box
Cut out one side of the stand for the plumbing, think next Thursday is when the silicone will be fully cured (9 days?).
Build a shroud/cabinet for the overflow box plumbing (my tank is next to a door that opens inwards)
Raise the lights up by about 2" (just have to flip the the aluminium angles)
Move the rest of the plants from the 55 to the 125

Plants lost in the last 2 weeks or so
30 Ludwigia sp Red stems
3 Hyptis Lorenzetia
1.5" x 16" mat of monte carlo, real big hit since it was gonna be my main carpet

Closing thoughts
I kinda hate the plant placement from the center to the left so far lol. Also kinda regret going for Ryoboku/Nature style instead of staying with Dutch. Guess I'll see what happens in 3-4 months/


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

*December 28th*
6 cups of ADA TC Monte Carlo 
2 cups oF ADA TC Crypt Tiger

I've been battling some funky algae that may have been caused by using just the power head and a tiny CO2 diffuser. think it might be rhizoclonium or maybe it's some weird fluffy variant of diatoms? pretty sure there's some hair algae in there too. 1 week of sub optimal co2 is gonna set back some progress for a long while. I have my sump and co2 reactor running again so that should hopefully fix things.



*Pics from December 31st*





and yeah I made the stupid move of planting the TC monte carlo while I was still fighting it lol, I siphoned out a lot of it before planting the mc. the monte carlo got covered in it or some of it grew close to the mc with in 3 days. 

at least the leaves on some plants are looking good


at least the algae isn't as noticeable from like 7 ft away


----------



## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> Been awhile
> 
> Sump Renonvation
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing--enjoying watching the progress of your rebuild. A couple of questions:

What's your rationale for using both vermiculite and SafeTsorb? Don't both substrates have a high CEC? And when you're moving plants or rescaping, won't the lightweight vermiculite float up & make a mess?

Fascinated by your sump design, as I am thinking about doing one with my next tank. What do you plan to put in the center two chambers.

Thanks!


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Desert Pupfish said:


> Thanks for sharing--enjoying watching the progress of your rebuild. A couple of questions:
> 
> What's your rationale for using both vermiculite and SafeTsorb? Don't both substrates have a high CEC? And when you're moving plants or rescaping, won't the lightweight vermiculite float up & make a mess?
> 
> ...


iirc ADA soil has a cec of 50 meq/100 g
Saf-t-sorb 33 meq/100 g
Vermiculite 100+

and yeah I'm taking a gamble on the vermiculite right now. I soaked the stuff for about 2 weeks prior to putting it in the tank. while testing it in a tote, it's light weight but it sank back down almost immediately.

as for the sump, K1 micro in one of the chambers and lava rock in the other.


----------



## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

It's neat to watch this tank transform  Also, fellow sump runners garner immediate respect from me!


----------



## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> iirc ADA soil has a cec of 50 meq/100 g
> Saf-t-sorb 33 meq/100 g
> Vermiculite 100+
> 
> ...


Thanks for this. That's a crazy high CEC! So is your rationale that the vermiculite & STS will absorb ferts from the water column for release to the roots? Currently have STS over a thin layer of soil in my current 55g, but will be setting up a new 75g sometime soon. So I'm re-examining substrate options since soil can be so unpredictable.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Desert Pupfish said:


> Thanks for this. That's a crazy high CEC! So is your rationale that the vermiculite & STS will absorb ferts from the water column for release to the roots? Currently have STS over a thin layer of soil in my current 55g, but will be setting up a new 75g sometime soon. So I'm re-examining substrate options since soil can be so unpredictable.


yeah basically.

I kinda regret not just choosing an aquasoil because when i have to tear down the tank for the next contest idk how difficult itll be to separate the sts and vermiculite. not to mention aquasoils have a more uniform shape. If topsoil and sts is working out for you and you're not the type to tear up the tank every couple of months i don't see anything wrong with just sticking to that.


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

@SingAlongWithTsing how is the mess / lack of mess situation when rearranging plants with STS?

Do you gravel vac it at all? 

I've got 2 50lb bags sitting in my basement in case of future use, came free from a family members work, labeled as "aquatic plant pond media" for some reason they figured I should have it lol, can't imagine why..... but the ingredient list is that of Safe-T-Sorb's.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Quagulator said:


> @SingAlongWithTsing how is the mess / lack of mess situation when rearranging plants with STS?
> 
> Do you gravel vac it at all?
> 
> I've got 2 50lb bags sitting in my basement in case of future use, came free from a family members work, labeled as "aquatic plant pond media" for some reason they figured I should have it lol, can't imagine why..... but the ingredient list is that of Safe-T-Sorb's.


only been up for 3 weeks, haven't had to any of that yet lol. dont even have fish in here, not until the montecarlo roots look strong enough.

what I can say is that it was easier planting in 2" of Black Diamond vs 2" of STS.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Killed off most of w/e the hell that algae was (definitely not a fluffy diatom) it's almost non-existent now. Hit the tank with 5 days straight with Algaefix instead of their every 3 days approach, if I had fish or shrimp (shrimps will die even with the normal Algaefix routine) in here I wouldnt have taken the gamble. Siphoned the dead algae everyday up til maintenance day too. 

Pond and Ramhorn snails survived the routine, breeding now too. Guess the algae was enough to feed em lol.

Montecarlo spreading out



AR Rosefolia


Blyxa recovering and growing


Need to solve some algae related things with the buce, might spot dose with glut and gamble with the leopard val.




and nah that's not cyano, it's either some type of super thick GDA that won't come off or a big cluster of GSA. the BBA is from the old scape.

*Random top shots*






*FTS*


that weird streak of light in the pic is from the tortoise tank


*Camera Notes*
Still need to learn how to use this Canon EOS M50, some shot looks a lil purpler than irl and vs the Sony A6000 (the camera I used for my last contest entry)

*Equipment notes*
The gyre is in the tank but it's never on, debating on getting a smaller one because this one is way too strong even on the lowest setting
May remove the air pump in the k1 section and replace it with a venturi plumbed off the manifold.

*Fert Notes*

may bump po4 up to see if itll help with the GSA?, I'm not sure yet.
very minimal GDA on glass with the current routine, Im not sure if I want to mess with it tbh lol


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

*New Additions, kind of*
Got some plants in from Tim S. on FB. My water and dosing is kinda opposite of his. My water is hard and I dose where in the middle I guess, he has RO water and doses lean. I think he's running high co2 too.

this will be my 3rd round (or maybe 2nd round?) vs Rotala Tulunadensis. Came in the mail perfectly fine, maybe it's because we both live in the same state?


Limno Aromatica or Hippuroides, we're not sure. In the past I had really hot pink ones, this red/magenta is a first for me.


Rotala Macranda Mini IV, and yeah it was that neon when it came in the mail.


we'll see how they do in the next 4 months. all 3 plants are in the areas with good flow and light.

*Algae*
BBA on driftwood mostly, but it's expected.

The GDA is back after like a month, note this return line isnt open

Ngl, this viewing angle always pisses me off. I keep thinking "damn why am I wasting all this space on just monte carlo?"

GSA creeping up but not too crazily. Not sure if it's a flow problem or PO4 problem. Some of the buces and anubias are 3+ years old, not sure if that has anything to do with it.


I have 6 options:
1) 19:1 water:bleach to bleach dip plants in a bucket
2) nerite snails cuz they love that GSA
3) raise my phosphate level and wait 2~3 weeks
4) cut and regrow leaves
5) increase flow going to the front side of the tank.
6) convert my secondary bio chamber into a refugium and toss all the water lettuce in there and slap an LED on there, light cycle would be the opposite of the display tank to avoid competing with the plants.

Haven't reached the point where I'll try all 6 options at once yet. 

*Shots from Above*











*Potential Changes *

Gonna have to play with the max height for the next couple of months
Macranda is a maybe, it draws too much attention as it is right now lol
Debating on moving the Novogeensis. Spot 1 is too dark, spot 2 I have to figure out how to fit a small cup of STS between some branches, spot 3 might be way too far.

*Misc Troubles*
There's some green hydra and planaria hanging at the lower portions of the front glass. If anyone has advice on how to handle this, I'm all ears.

*Ferts*
Dec ?? ~ Jan 26th


Jan 27th ~ ??

Bumping up PO4 for now


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Been awhile. Can't post much cuz it's close to the IAPLC2020 deadline, got about 2 months left I think

Time line's important in the next couple of pics, breaking up the update in 2 or more posts

*Feb 21st*
finally switched to a led background, using the current usa serene led kit here





*Feb 27th?*




*Feb 28th?*
finally moved the fish







everything looks fine and dandy right?


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Rolling into March, mostly going down hill from here

*March 2nd*
Some time between the end of January and March 2nd I was doing 15 ppm K per week, guess it was too much cuz it punched a hole in one of my buce, crinkled the new growth on my Ludwigia sp Red, and twisted and hardened some new growth on the AR Rosefolia. No idea what type of hair algae is stuck on the glass.





*March 10th*
Brown diatoms return and what I believe to be staghorn algae is popping up in some areas







Montecarlo is still green, kind of




*March 15th*
diatoms are still everywhere, moved the Blyxa out of the shade in hopes of getting its color back


swapped from a vertical spray bar to a horizontal spray bar, it's placed low to assist the gyre; placing it higher may cause some chaotic laminar pattern in the middle of the tank. gyre pump re-added to the tank on the right side under the overflow, manage to slow it down by making mesh sleeves for it. the sleeves also prevent shrimp, snails, and plants from getting sucked into it.



at least these guys are healthy


so what's screwing up the tank over the past 3 weeks? I'm not sure. Something similar happened last year around this time too.

List of possibilities:
1) I plugged 8 osmocote balls into the sub, maybe they got loose and are somewhere in the tank releasing ammonia and who knows what

2) My tap water is 8.2 pH this time of year vs the 8.0 between October/November ~ January

3) The 15 ppm K on top of my high Ca was enough to inhibit Boron uptake. Slow Boron uptake = excess silicic acid = diatom bloom. This theory works if freshwater diatoms are the same as the reef ones (some reef keepers dose some form of silica to induce diatoms to feed their fish) AND if aquatic plants follow the same biochemical sequence as terrestrial ones.








The ragged hole in the buce leaf, twisted AR, and twisted L. sp Red seems to imply 15 ppm weekly is too high. 6.23 ppm per week might have been too low, I noticed some pin holes in the older leaves of the Hygro polysperma sunset. Right now (since March 8th) I'm dosing 9.94 ppm weekly to see how it works out.

The whole reason I raised PO4 from 1.87 to 2.87 was to get rid of GDA, I ramped up K to help transfer the P faster. It destroyed the GDA on some buce and anubias.

4) My flow went to sh*t because of high plant density (this was before re-adding the gyre and switching to a horizontal spray bar). there is a stupid amount of Pogostemon in the back right corner

5) Fish waste + food threw off what ever balance I had before 

6) My tap NO3 is about ~20 ppm now and that might be screwing with something

7) My denison barbs are chickens, they get frightened easily and knock plants out (mainly the rotala) every damn day, twice a day. That might be disturbing the substrate enough to cause the bloom. 

8) To combat my fish, I've been adding some more STS in the area with the Rotala, idk if there's anything in the unused STS that can cause algae though.

9) The 55 gallon temporary tank was also messy as hell and was coated with brown algae on the walls due to having exposed potting soil, I might have transferred something over to the 125.

10) The new piece of driftwood in the tank maybe leeching organics.


Possible solutions in no particular order:
1) Trimming back a lot of plants and manually dusting off all the diatoms on every single leaf

2) watching my flow

3) might have to adjust ferts to both the higher NO3 and higher Ca in my tap water

4) play with my K dosage again

5) may have to use purigen or chemipure to help reduce organics coming from the new wood.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

*Other News / non-125 gallon stuff*
Rearranged the fish room a bit


My dad's arowana in the grow out 55 gallon. It's going in his 180 when it out grows the 55, that's his plan at least.



One of the baby leopard tortoises, they sleep indoors and roam outdoor during the day when it's warm


*The 22? gallon grow out low-tech tank / spare tank*
my uncle left an empty tank here so I might as well use it, I told myself I shouldnt scape it but ...






tank get's a weekly 25% water change and is refilled with water from the 125 getting it's left over ferts. there's like 1L of UNS soil and an 8.8lb bag of Stratum in there. it's a stupid thin amount of soil. 24 PAR in the middle of the tank, Yescom LED.

the plants recovered pretty well from the damage I did to em when they were in the 55 gallon temporary tank, most of the GSA and super GDA disappeared. Not sure if that's the soil's doing or me barely dosing anything.

the tank is stupidly overfiltered. HOB with sponges and K1, some internal canister thing rated with 100 gph filled with polyfil, and a sponge filter. the only fish in there are a colony of bluestar endlers, dont have pics of em cause they're pretty damn fast.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Been awhile, been mostly busy with personal stuff and fixing stuff around the house.

Since this isn't my IAPLC entry I can post this FTS lol. 

*March 5th, 2020*


Best recipe I've used so far with my funky tap


but as of late April/May I have swapped to a Tropica Specialized clone with Ni, can't post pics yet cuz it involves my IAPLC 2020 entry.

Looking back at this, I feel this should of been the one I picked. It might look a lil flat but the colors.

Anything nature style is something I'm gonna struggle with but I dont mind it.

*Late May-ish*
Sump is still the same EXCEPT that I pulled out the T section from the reactor to pump. 


I went back to the 3" pvc cap and added a 2nd cerges in the chain.


Previously I was using a single cerges reactor (the Ozone Hybrid) with a Mazzei Venturi without a bypass. That was a stupid mistake. One of the contributing factors to my plants being wonky was my unstable co2, there was a dead snail stuck in the venturi for who knows how long.

I really hate that divider between the K1 and Lava rock. I lose about 1.5 gallons every day due to evaporation so you can imagine what the waterfall is like and the co2 I maybe losing.

I may switch to an ERIC filter / Endless river type setup in the future or something simple like the poret foam sumps. I still wanna keep the silent chamber and knitting mesh screen sections though. Less leaves breaking down in the whole system the better, less organics in the water.

Next manifold I'm building will be using gate valves instead of ball valves. Had a cap pop off one of the handles of my ball valve, no leaks fortunately lol.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Idk what your entry looks like that pic right there is sweet! Great update.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Henry good to see an update.

Tank looks great. Might be my favorite rendition so far. Well done!

And thanks for sharing the dosing, always interesting to see what others are up to.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Greggz said:


> Henry good to see an update.
> 
> Tank looks great. Might be my favorite rendition so far. Well done!
> 
> And thanks for sharing the dosing, always interesting to see what others are up to.


update the table, @Greggz! please?


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

*IAPLC 2020 - Rank 840 - Asa*



I am so glad this is over with lol. 

Plants/Hardware/Etc


Spoiler



[LAYOUT TITLE]
Asa

[AQUARIUM SIZE]
W: 184 x D: 47 x H: 62(cm)

[Application]
Application to the other planted aquarium contest : Yes
Contest name :
AGA International Aquascaping Contest

[AQUATIC PLANTS]
Persicaria sp. Kawagoeanum
Hygrophila Polysperma sp. Sunset
Bacopa Colorata
Rotala Rotundifolia
Limnophila Hippuroides
Hygrophila Balsamica
Blyxa Novoguineensis
Windelov Javafern
Anubias Nana
Anubias Nana Petite
Micranthemum Monte Carlo
Alternanthera Reineckii Roseafolia
Cabomba Furcata
Cryptocoryne Wendtii
Cryptocoryne Spiralis Red Tiger
Pogostemon Stellatus
Ludwigia Sp. Red
Penthorum Sedoides
Acmella Repens
Hydrocotyle Tripartita
Leopard Vallisneria
Bucephalandra Brownie Purple
Bucephalandra Wavy Green
Bucephalandra Arrogant Blue

[FISH]
8x Barbodes semifasciolatus
4x Sahyadria denisonii

[SUBSTRATE]
Baked Montmorillonite Clay

[FILTER]
DIY Sump

[LIGHT]
3x 165 watt SBReef Fresh Water LED, 8hrs per day

[CO2]
100cc/min, 8 hrs per day

[COMMENTS]
9~11 dKH
14~15 dGH

Back light: Current USA Serene LED kit, Beamswork EA series 72"



More pics below


Spoiler














Fert routine, the Tropica Micro clone + Ni. 

Honestly I'm not sure if I can blame this recipe for some of the funky rotala growth, my tap water is unstable. I did notice increased pearling though.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Been over a year since I posted here lol

AQ9 WIP






with sand and soil in




secret side tunnel


fts

might raise the soil in the back left but I'm not sure yet


anyone got paint stain removal recommendations? 80 grit sand paper barely did anything. Think I have to go with chemicals at this point unless I Just replace the front and side panels with new ply wood and I somehow land in the same holes while screwing em on. I definitely want to change the doors on this stand because 32" get in the damn way a lot, might do sliding doors.

Hoping to get the scape up by February. 

Not sure how I wanna plumb the tank yet. 

Option 1:
I might stick with the peninsula style overflow set up from before (would block the view of the secret tunnel though) or I might hang the overflow box in the back (not really a fan of this cuz it would shade w/e plants would be under it). If I go with the peninsula style I might move the box closer to the front which is above the sand area, wouldnt have to worry about shading plants too much over there.

Option 2:
copy this guy's overflow but fold the back end, it'll look like a triangle if looking from above the tank.





Option 3:
canister filters, personally I like overflow set up too much to switch over because all I generally have to do is just swap out one sheet of polyfil a week and I kinda like to be able to see what's going inside the filter lol.


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## gjcarew (Dec 26, 2018)

Good to see you active again. You definitely do tanks on a grand scale

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Looks like fun!

What about using a hang on back overflow? Same idea as the diy version but built a little better and off the shelf.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Good to see you post again.

I am looking forward to following along on this one.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Tsing!! Good to see you still at it brotha


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

minorhero said:


> Looks like fun!
> 
> What about using a hang on back overflow? Same idea as the diy version but built a little better and off the shelf.


The one i have now (cpr cs102?) is kinda too chonky as seen in the pics. Im not sure if i wanna give up a side panel / side views for it lol. Plus the shading.

The diy overflow in that video can pick up debris from the bottom and upper levels, I'm not not sure how well my cpr cs102 pulled from the bottom without the aid of a powerhead. If I go the diy route I'll most likely need to build 2 of em.

Before anyone mentions it, drilling the tank is out of the question since I still plan on using this tank for competitions lol.

also planning on changing the canopy, current one gets in the way of maintenance from my last 4 years of experience with it.

might turn it into a floating one or just have like 2x6s to hold it up.


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Diablo 60 grit Sandnet discs made short work of the old stain, Im lucky that it didn't mess up the plywood too much. After that I hand sanded it with some printer paper (yes this is a thing lol).

Later painted the boards with BEHR MQ5-05 Limousine Leather Extra Durable Satin Enamel Interior Paint & Prime. The paint is so thick that it only took 1 coat to get what I wanted lol.



Took around 15 hrs to cut, glue, and mount the plumbing

George Fischer checkvalve are overkill but I needed something in case the anti-siphon hole gets clogged by a snail or something


My drill was too big with the drill bits I was using to pre-drill holes so I ended up stripping a screw or two while setting up the mounts.






got lucky with the tee, unions, and elbows fitting perfectly here lol




I screwed up some measurements here on both returns but I got lucky that it was big enough for PVC clamps to fit and support the pipe. The weight of the pipes and the mount should prevent it from wiggling too much while running.


Overflow box and return lines, just waiting for the clear 1" pvc to make the drain pipes for the box.



Next I need to figure out how to mount the lights and figure out what to do about the doors. Current plan is to build a wall out of 2x4s and wrap the front and back with 1/2" ply (space issues), left and right 3/4" and I'll attach a floating canopy to that and slip 2-4 L straps in it.

After that probably a shroud for the overflow box and return lines and probably a separate cabinet for my 20lb CO2 tank, getting tired of worrying about hitting my sump every time I put that thing in under the stand lol.

I can do trim stuff later, getting the tank running is a higher priority right now if I want to make it in time for a competition.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Nice plumbing! I'm getting in parts right now to do my first sump plumbing job for my saltwater tank. Any advice for someone who has done regular house repair plumbing stuff and reactor builds but never plumbed a whole sump before?


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

minorhero said:


> Nice plumbing! I'm getting in parts right now to do my first sump plumbing job for my saltwater tank. Any advice for someone who has done regular house repair plumbing stuff and reactor builds but never plumbed a whole sump before?


Thanks

General advice I got from other people:
Plan everything out (how you want your flow pattern etc).
Union fittings are your best friend (for maintenance and if you ever need to add stuff inline in the future/adjust your manifold).
Order extra parts in case you make a mistake or if you change plans (this happened to me lol).
Have a lot of paper towels and painters tape on hand.
A small chamfer of the edges of the pipe helps with gluing.
Don't be afraid to use a mallet.

I kind of winged mines and I just realized I screwed up at the tee fitting. I don't need a ball valve where the pump is going into the tee, having a ball valve at each of the elbows would of been better (good thing I ordered extras lol). I probably wont change it till I see how the maintenance is or if I decide I only need 1 return line instead of 2.

I taped off the areas where I was about to glue and used the paper towels to clean any excess glue. I think some people use nail polish remove / 3% acetone to further clean off the excess glue.


Make sure your pvc cutter blade is straight or use a miter box if you prefer to use a hand saw. Personally I used this Husky 2-1/8 in. Quick-Release Tube Cutter-80-773-111 - The Home Depot but it leaves a weird edge at the cut and you have to kind of sand or file it before fitting and gluing. If I had a miter saw and a stop block of some sort I would of used that instead lol.


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