# cardinal shrimp



## steve0199us (Oct 2, 2012)

for those keeping these guys, what are your water parameters and WC routine, I saw some threads but wanted to start a new one, also how long have you successfully kept your group in the past or present?


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

I've had two tanks of Cardinals since November 2012. I had them once in the past over a 12 month period, before I moved across the country.

pH: 8.5
TDS: 160 ppm
GH: 8

Inert sand substrate
100% RO water remineralized with Salty Shrimp 8.5

My colonies are breeding well for me under these conditions.

***Whenever I have deaths, it is after my water changes. You cannot do large water changes with these shrimps. I now do a 10% water change weekly, with water that has identical parameters to the tank parameters, including temperature.

Finally, the key to these shrimps may be feeding them with powder foods. 
This is because they are very territorial, and if the food doesn't float into their little territory, they don't seem as willing to go get it as other Sulawesi shrimp species.
I use a mortar and pestle to grind up pellets and sticks to convert them to powder, and also use bacter foods, such as those offered by Shirakura, Ebita, and Borneo Wild.

You also need to have patience when setting up a tank for these guys. Give it time to grow algae and diatoms on the substrate, etc... I let my tanks age for 2 months before introducing Cardinals.

GOOD LUCK!


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## ProduceGuy (Mar 8, 2013)

I've had mine about 6 months now.

8.0 pH
200 TDS
8 GH
7 KH 
80 Degree Water 

Lots of rocks and algae. Mine don't care much for prepared foods.

I do about a 25% water change once a week. I've never lost a single one.

They are breeding like crazy.

They are my favorites out of the 9 types I breed, and I hate parting with them.


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

ProduceGuy said:


> I do about a 25% water change once a week. I've never lost a single one.
> 
> They are breeding like crazy.


Wow. Are you one of the lucky few that has tap water with the right parameters for these guys? I know of a few people that are breeding them in tap water, and these are the breeders that have the huge populations. For example...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjmLJhZd1gw

Everyone I know that has to remineralize RO water to get the right params for them, has a death once in a while. Better knock on wood. ;-)


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## ProduceGuy (Mar 8, 2013)

Lexinverts said:


> Wow. Are you one of the lucky few that has tap water with the right parameters for these guys? I know of a few people that are breeding them in tap water, and these are the breeders that have the huge populations. For example...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjmLJhZd1gw
> 
> Everyone I know that has to remineralize RO water to get the right params for them, has a death once in a while. Better knock on wood. ;-)



Yes, I am a lucky one. I use tap water with just a drop of Prime. They are happy little fellas :icon_smil


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## Calmia22 (Aug 20, 2011)

I have very high ph tap water as well. I would love to try these guys out, but just can't justify their cost right now. Once I can justify it, I will probably be living somewhere else.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

pH 7.6 too low for these guys?


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

Calmia22 said:


> I have very high ph tap water as well. I would love to try these guys out, but just can't justify their cost right now. Once I can justify it, I will probably be living somewhere else.


It's not just high pH that is important. You have to have high pH, with relatively low TDS, and relatively low GH (A GH of 8 is quite low for water that has a pH above 8). That's what makes these parameters tricky, and very rare coming out of the tap.


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

ProduceGuy said:


> Yes, I am a lucky one. I use tap water with just a drop of Prime. They are happy little fellas :icon_smil


I'm jealous. I'd like to see some video of your tank!


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

Nubster said:


> pH 7.6 too low for these guys?


Technically, no--it's within the range that people have bred them in. But, you are more likely to have success with them if your pH is around 8.
I strongly encourage trying the Salty Shrimp products if you want to be successful.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Salty Shrimp has products specifically tailored for Sulawesi. I really like their line.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Lexinverts said:


> Technically, no--it's within the range that people have bred them in. But, you are more likely to have success with them if your pH is around 8.
> I strongly encourage trying the Salty Shrimp products if you want to be successful.


I was just on the Salty Shrimp site and they say that Cardinals do well in the Sulawesi Mineral 7.5. I wonder if I'd be better off with tap water which is 7.6 or RO water using the Sulawesi Mineral 7.5? Or should I just up to the Sulawesi Mineral 8.5? Thing is, I'd like to keep some neos in the tank too and I'm afraid pH 8.5 might be a bit too high.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

8.5 too much for neos? Nope.  I know from experience.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Hmmm...so which is better for the Cardinals, the Sulawesi Mineral 7.5 or the Sulawesi Mineral 8.5? Or my tap water which is pH 7.6 KH 5 GH 6 TDS 117 (but more like 200-220 in the tank)?

"_Sulawesi Mineral 7,5 - Minerals and trace elements

Sulawesi Mineral 7.5 is the most easily soluble variant of our Sulawesi Mineral scope. It buffers the pH at around 7.5 and serves for mineralising RO water, rainwater, fully desalinated water etc. 
Sulawesi Mineral 7.5 contains all important minerals and trace elements the well-known shrimp species from this region need for their health, wellbeing and colouration. Cardinal shrimp (Caridia dennerli) breeders have been using it very successfully. This mineral salt furthers the microbial regeneration of biological filter substrates.
Raises carbonate and total hardness at a ratio of KH/°dH = 0.42/1.0.

Note
The shrimp originating from Lake Towuti on Sulawesi (e.g. the freshwater harlequin shrimp - Caridina woltereckae -, or the red-banded shrimp - Caridina striata) are still very difficult to breed in captivity. Thus we went to the Ancient Lakes on Sulawesi again in 2011 (after our initial trip in 2008) in order to have a closer look at the conditions in the habitat and to take water samples to have them analysed here.
The results of these analyses show fundamental differences of the water chemistry of the Malili Lakes in comparison with generally known types of lacustrian waters. Here we had to completely rework the mineral constellation; the result of these efforts is the salt Sulawesi Mineral 8.5

Less finicky Sulawesi shrimp like the freshwater cardinal shrimp (Caridina dennerli) can be kept and bred with positive outcomes both with Sulawesi Mineral 7.5 and Sulawesi Mineral 8.5. For the more susceptible shrimps we hope to achieve long-term successful breeding by the use of Sulawesi Mineral 8.5, which is practically identical to the water chemistry of Lake Towuti._"


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

Nubster, my advice to you is to go with the Salty 8.5. Then, if you want to get any other species of Sulawesi shrimps in the future, you are more likely able to have success with them. I know that Yellow Cheeks and White Orchids, for example, do well in the Salty 8.5, as well as Cardinals.

You could be successful with your tap water, but others' experience suggests that is not terribly likely. Even if you have the right params, you might run into trouble because of metals, or periodic treatments to the city water supply. 

I suggest that you get a tank established with the Salty 8.5 first, and then you could try a few in your tap water at some point down the line. Maybe you'll get lucky like Produceguy, but that way you'd be hedging your bets.

P.S. Your Neos will probably do fine in the 8.5 (mine do), but once you get a group of Cardinals going you will care much less about those Neos. ;-)


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Lexinverts said:


> but once you get a group of Cardinals going you will care much less about those Neos. ;-)


You're probably right...lol


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## randyl (Feb 1, 2012)

Is 80 degree the upper limit from your experience? Will they be okay in 86-90?


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

I've never had them hotter than 83. I like to keep them at 82, because it makes their development speed up. They might do okay hotter than 83, but I would aerate the water quite a bit to ensure they get enough oxygen.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Are tannins okay for using with cardinals?


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

I keep mine in ph 8, temp 80 and tds was like 550 last i checked. I just have them in lava rock gravel with a piece of driftwood and a chunk of lace rock, I remineralize with salty shrimp sulawesi 7.5. I change water once a month about 10 percent, other than that I top off. When I change water I drip it back in.


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

Soothing Shrimp said:


> Are tannins okay for using with cardinals?


They love Indian Almond leaves, if that is what you mean. 

I haven't tried oak leaves with them--only Indian Almond, because that's what I know the Indonesians use. 

Germans might use oak, though.

I also use Malaysian driftwood in my tanks, and they do turn the water a little bit brown.


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

mordalphus said:


> I keep mine in ph 8, temp 80 and tds was like 550 last i checked. I just have them in lava rock gravel with a piece of driftwood and a chunk of lace rock, I remineralize with salty shrimp sulawesi 7.5. I change water once a month about 10 percent, other than that I top off. When I change water I drip it back in.


Do you know what your GH is, Liam?


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

God, last time I checked my gh it was like 14, I've been trying to lower it back down recently because the molts are super thick, not sure what it is right now.


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

mordalphus said:


> God, last time I checked my gh it was like 14, I've been trying to lower it back down recently because the molts are super thick, not sure what it is right now.


Wow! I used to think they couldn't even molt in that high of a GH. But then I recently corresponded with someone else who had his Cardinals at GH 13. 

Have you always kept them at a higher GH, or has it slowly increased over time?

I've never kept mine higher than 8.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

My gh has been all over the place, to be honest these things are like roaches to me. They breed incredibly fast, are able to adjust to all sorts of parameters, etc. Mine are over 20 generations from wild caught though. I've had these ones for a year, started with one berried female and I now have hundreds. I just keep an eye on the molts, if they're super thick I do a wc with pure RO


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

mordalphus said:


> My gh has been all over the place, to be honest these things are like roaches to me. They breed incredibly fast, are able to adjust to all sorts of parameters, etc. Mine are over 20 generations from wild caught though. I've had these ones for a year, started with one berried female and I now have hundreds. I just keep an eye on the molts, if they're super thick I do a wc with pure RO


You must be doing something else right, then, since they aren't so hardy for most people that keep them out the ideal Sulawesi rule of 8 (ph, GH, and temp). Maybe the key is the fact that you have a line that has been bred in captivity for a long time.

Do you feed with powdered foods (like I do) or do you let them subsist on algae and diatoms? I'm supposing that with such a large population, you can get away with throwing pellets in the tank.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Yeah, actually you HAVE to train them to eat food, I've got about 20 percent of mine eating shrimp foods now, the rest get powdered spirulina and ebiken Ei.

Added video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stOzk7nxA8M&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

mordalphus said:


> Yeah, actually you HAVE to train them to eat food, I've got about 20 percent of mine eating shrimp foods now, the rest get powdered spirulina and ebiken Ei.
> 
> Added video
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stOzk7nxA8M&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Cool video!

I've been grinding up a mix of different shrimp foods into a powder with a mortar and pestle and adding that to the tank along with Ebiken Ei. Maybe they will eventually develop a taste for these shrimp foods in pellet form, like you have experienced.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

That video is a few months old, just found it on my phone, but the population in my tank is so dense that they form little clusters of shrimp, and basically to train them I've been dropping a piece of food right onto a cluster, and they scatter a little bit, but then one of them will start picking on the food, and the others will come back and start picking on it too. I use a really soft and stinky food, but once they're used to it I'll change to shirakura since that's what I feed everything else.


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## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

Great info


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## Lkittredge (Jul 27, 2012)

mordalphus said:


> I use a really soft and stinky food, but once they're used to it I'll change to shirakura since that's what I feed everything else.


Do you mind sharing what the really soft and stinky food is, or are you referring to the powdered spirulina and ebiken Ei mentioned previously?


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