# (Cherry) Shrimp Genetics



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

When talking about pale Cherry shrimp, I keep reading statements like this:



> That is what happens to cherries when you dont introduce new genes every now and then.


Just thought I share my experience in that regard. I am pretty familiar with genetics, and statements like this seem to make sense. However, in reality, you might be mistaken, and blame results of environmental issues on genetics.

I got my first Cherry Shrimp about 3 years ago. I bought 5, 1 was doa, 2 more died shortly after. One of the remaining had eggs, and the rest is history, hundreds and maybe thousands of Cherries.

Originally I had them in one tank, then I took out a few that populated another tank, and since then I repeated the same thing two more times. Basically, the worst form of inbreeding you can imagine.

What I found was that over time, Cherry population in a tank grew to some outrageous number, where almost every leaf has its own grazing Cherry shrimp. Along with that, adults became more and more rare, and finally I could not find any truly red colored shrimp in their. Even the females had the dull male coloration, along with eggs to spawn the next generation.

I was actually thinking in the same lines... should get some Cherry genetics exchange with someone on the other side of the continent going...

Recently, I redid my 100 gal tank which never had cherries. I added a few from another tank and within a few weeks, a lot of them turned into amazing, huge, deep red Cherry girls, best I have ever seen.

Well, there goes the theory of genetic defects and inbreeding. As I found out, as soon as there is a certain population density, along with food shortage (I never explicitly feed my shrimp), they don't mature, or for some reason only show the red speckles typical for males. If a few are moved into a large tank, nutrient rich environment, they show their mature beautiful coloration.

Try it...


----------



## RESGuy (Jan 15, 2007)

WOw thanks for sharing your experience with us! As I am just starting out this might be helpful to me later on.roud:


----------



## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Wasserpest, Its funny you bring this up because I was thinking about it earlier. I think more or less there are two general sides people take on this issue. Which really each side has it's own faults.

Side A or 1 (idc)

They say that the shrimp colour has to do with what it's around. Light substrate = light shrimp. Dark substrate = Dark shrimp

Side B or 2 (idc)

Say inbreeding causes this and after so many times the shrimp are inbred (I think the number is 13) they revert to wild form which as I look at it is very rare for someone to post that they have a tank full of cherries looking like Steven Chongs (which are wild and b e a u t i f u l!)

I think that those two things play an effect but there is one that we miss a ton. 

STRESS

When you get shrimp in the mail, they're stressed. They're clear because like all aquatic beings (mostly) They don't like being shipped and it stresses them out and they either go DARK and loose all their nice highlights and amazing colors. OR go Pale as a ghost so to speak.

So I think It vaires from tank to tank, but having something wrong can also make them go pale. 

So I think there are many answers to the question...

That being said. If someone has the room to test this out and see what makes cherries go from RED to Dull or clear go ahead. Its probably a mix of all above and more. Sometimes I bet it's a gene thing. A CLEAR shrimp must be another recessive gene right? Also stress will make them less colorful! And also the substrate their in, they try to blend a little don't they?(Do they?).

But it's rare to see them revert to FULL wild coloration. Especially in a good cherry shrimp strain, and there are at least a dozen great ones just on this forum...

So there isn't a simple answer to this question in my opinion.

-Andrew

Hey Tom, what about doing tests like this on cherries opposed to the magic leaves tests on other shrimp?


----------



## Mr.ThomasWalls (Feb 11, 2007)

This posting is very interesting. I myself have a tank where all the leaves are covered with shrimp. The tank has been in isolation for over 2 years. I have not noticed the changing of the colors as described. Mine have always been pink from the time I got them till now. Every once in a while I will see a very brite red one with a pink saddle. 99% are the pink color. I have no way of knowing how many shrimp are in this tank. I loose track at 200 and that's in a corner of the tank.


----------



## RESGuy (Jan 15, 2007)

Mr.ThomasWalls said:


> This posting is very interesting. I myself have a tank where all the leaves are covered with shrimp. The tank has been in isolation for over 2 years. I have not noticed the changing of the colors as described. Mine have always been pink from the time I got them till now. Every once in a while I will see a very brite red one with a pink saddle. 99% are the pink color. I have no way of knowing how many shrimp are in this tank. I loose track at 200 and that's in a corner of the tank.


Could you give some more details of your tank setup to contribute to the topic? i.e substrate color?


----------



## Mr.ThomasWalls (Feb 11, 2007)

Details sure just ask. My substrate is aquatic plant soil on top with potting soil ( yes dirt) under that. Planting is jungle type growth. I will give some away to test this topic. I would hope the person I send them to would post their observations.


----------



## RESGuy (Jan 15, 2007)

Okay, so you have dark substrate but light pink RCS. And yes, I saw your post cool shrimp  I would buy them but I want to get some red ones, and I am already buying some red ones for the same price.:bounce:


----------



## sandiegoryu (Feb 15, 2006)

I have similar experiences Wasserpest. I had many cherries in my 10 gallon, and they were all pink, and dull colored. I thought they may be wild form but I looked it up on the internet and it did not look wild. So I took some males and females and put it in my 2 gallon. They started getting a intense red, and the offspring were also very red. I returned them into my 10 gallon and they remained red for the rest of their lives. 

Why? I dunno. But that is my experience.


----------



## fredyk (Jan 2, 2004)

I've been wondering about this myself. I have some in my community tank which are deep red, black gravel substrate. Put one of these red ones into a nano with light colored substrate, and red color is gone.


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

...all this is probably a rudimentary form of camouflage. 

Dark substrate = dark shrimp = harder for predators to find them. Light substrate = light shrimp = harder for predators to find them.

Mother nature is great!


----------



## Mr.ThomasWalls (Feb 11, 2007)

I guess we will find out soon enough.


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Fish Newb said:


> Side A or 1 (idc)
> 
> They say that the shrimp colour has to do with what it's around. Light substrate = light shrimp. Dark substrate = Dark shrimp
> 
> ...


Good points Andrew, and others.

Regarding substrate color, have you considered that those shrimp are partially transparent? With a light colored substrate, they will look red and white -> pinkish, with a black substrate they will look red and black -> dark red? Just a thought... maybe eyes are playing tricks on you.

Don't know how many generations my shrimp have been inbreeding, maybe not the magic 13 yet, however I would expect to see some "wild" looking ones cropping up here and there. None so far looking like Steven's.

Again, my theory is that once a certain population density is reached, Cherries don't mature/fully color up anymore. Be it that they don't have the sufficient food&space to fully develop, or die prematurely (I doubt that - I never see dead ones).

Thanks MrThomasWalls for trying to prove or disprove this theory. As long as yours are regular Cherry shrimp, and some of them are females, I am looking forward to results of the swap. Maybe those who were the lucky receivers can chime in in a few weeks with their experience. Of course, everyone who has this "issue" with a tank overrun by Cherries and a Cherry-less tank can do the same experiment at home.

Maybe adding a predator to a tank with loads of Cherries would be an interesting test as well. Something like a dwarf cichlid, feeding on juvenile Cherries, but leaving the adult ones alone, resulting in a reduction in shrimp density. With the right balance, the predator wouldn't even need much additional food.


----------



## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Wasserpest said:


> Good points Andrew, and others.


Thanks, there are some good thoughts and points here as well I agree!



Wasserpest said:


> Regarding substrate color, have you considered that those shrimp are partially transparent? With a light colored substrate, they will look red and white -> pinkish, with a black substrate they will look red and black -> dark red? Just a thought... maybe eyes are playing tricks on you.


That's a good point... I know there are some that are no doubt solid red, and others that are more clear and red dotted. So for some this may be the case.



Wasserpest said:


> Don't know how many generations my shrimp have been inbreeding, maybe not the magic 13 yet, however I would expect to see some "wild" looking ones cropping up here and there. None so far looking like Steven's.


I'm not sure the magic number.. but there is a number of generations that after that they will start popping out with more dominant gene charecteristics like browns and stuff.



Wasserpest said:


> Again, my theory is that once a certain population density is reached, Cherries don't mature/fully color up anymore. Be it that they don't have the sufficient food&space to fully develop, or die prematurely (I doubt that - I never see dead ones).


I have talked to other people about this in fish. I'm pretty sure that some fish (maybe all) have a hormone they release into the water column. When it gets too saturated they will stop growing or grow MUCH slower... My Social Teacher from my previous school year told me that he once raised a small 2 inch Piranha to a 12inch in a 10g tank by doing 20% WC every day over the course of a year or more... 

So I think this theroy has something going on.. Maybe you should see if anyone has posted something similar for fish on this forum, or another mainly fish forum.



Wasserpest said:


> Thanks MrThomasWalls for trying to prove or disprove this theory. As long as yours are regular Cherry shrimp, and some of them are females, I am looking forward to results of the swap. Maybe those who were the lucky receivers can chime in in a few weeks with their experience. Of course, everyone who has this "issue" with a tank overrun by Cherries and a Cherry-less tank can do the same experiment at home.


I'd like to second the Thanks and we shall see how it turns out!



Wasserpest said:


> Maybe adding a predator to a tank with loads of Cherries would be an interesting test as well. Something like a dwarf cichlid, feeding on juvenile Cherries, but leaving the adult ones alone, resulting in a reduction in shrimp density. With the right balance, the predator wouldn't even need much additional food.


This is very interesting thing you thought of. Basically natural selection, cherry shrimp style. Well let me tell you this has been done many times in the past. It's nothing new. I read I believe on petshrimp.com if not there it was shrimpnow.com that one of the people who originally bred the color for cherries used this method to get the darker ones. They basically did what you said with some differences.

Red background. Some DW. Some moss or other plants. 

Predator was white cloud mountain minnow. 

After a few months they saw improvement in the coloring of the shrimp and reproved the way one of the original breeders did it. 

If I could refind the post I would... but I'm banned from petshrimp.com  


So there is something to think about:icon_bigg  

-Andrew


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Funny you mention that, because I have a tank with White Clouds right now, overrun by Cherries, and I think they might here and there snatch a little one.

Of course this selection and color improvement could be explained by the lower shrimp density as well. No minnows - many shrimp - no mature shrimp. Minnows - less shrimp - more of the dark red individuals. Not because the minnows eat the light colored shrimp, but because they reduce the overall population.


----------



## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Wasserpest said:


> Funny you mention that, because I have a tank with White Clouds right now, overrun by Cherries, and I think they might here and there snatch a little one.
> 
> Of course this selection and color improvement could be explained by the lower shrimp density as well. No minnows - many shrimp - no mature shrimp. Minnows - less shrimp - more of the dark red individuals. Not because the minnows eat the light colored shrimp, but because they reduce the overall population.


 Oh well the natural selection basically gave the ones that where of lighter colors away and the fish snatched them. But I can't remember all the specifics...

And I thought it was white clouds... but it might of been a tetra... I really think it was white clouds though...

-Andrew


----------



## macclellan (Dec 22, 2006)

Wasserpest said:


> Maybe adding a predator to a tank with loads of Cherries would be an interesting test as well. Something like a dwarf cichlid, feeding on juvenile Cherries, but leaving the adult ones alone, resulting in a reduction in shrimp density. With the right balance, the predator wouldn't even need much additional food.


This is what I'm thinking. I have 2 bolivian rams, and they chance after RCS as if a dinner bell were rung. Yet they totally ignore my ghost shrimp, which are clear (size is not an issue, i have some small ghosts and some large RCS). I'll see if the pink ones Thomas is sending me are less attractive to the rams. I'll post results here.


----------



## RESGuy (Jan 15, 2007)

I thought this thread to be appropriate for this question:

Would CRS and RCS be able to live together? Would they inbreed? Thanks!:thumbsup:


----------



## AxolotlFarmer (Nov 29, 2006)

I belive CRS and RCS belong to differnt Genus and there for, due to anitomical differences cannot crossbreed and create mules.


----------



## RESGuy (Jan 15, 2007)

AxolotlFarmer said:


> I belive CRS and RCS belong to differnt Genus and there for, due to anitomical differences cannot crossbreed and create mules.


Alrighty, thanks:thumbsup:

*EDIT:*I did some searching and found:



> This shrimp will readily cross with the bee shrimp (crystal black shrimp), chinese zebra shrimp, and the tiger shrimp. The bumblebee shrimp might also cross with this shrimp, but it is less likely to do so since it seems to be a completely different species.


No mention of RCS yay!


----------



## Vladdy (May 6, 2008)

I have seen very bright red shrimp with a light colored substrate and vice versa.


----------



## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

A Hill said:


> I have talked to other people about this in fish. I'm pretty sure that some fish (maybe all) have a hormone they release into the water column. When it gets too saturated they will stop growing or grow MUCH slower... My Social Teacher from my previous school year told me that he once raised a small 2 inch Piranha to a 12inch in a 10g tank by doing 20% WC every day over the course of a year or more...
> -Andrew


Thats definitely true, someone did a test like that with discus on one of the discus forums...like 6 discus in each tank...150 gallons. One got like 30 percent every other day, one got 30 percent every week. Nothing testable was overly high even in the 2nd tank, but they grew a hell of a lot slower.


----------



## AlexRaven (Oct 7, 2008)

This is a great thread ! I do have the same problem lately with my RCS in a 79G tank.
At the begining as they were about 40 in number I got many big females with a very dark intense red color. As they started to breed they quickly overcrowded the tank an are right now over 250. I rarely see big reds any more and the main population is consisting of immature pale cherrys.

Just a thought... shrimps are molting and they need some minerals and iodine to do so. Is it possible that in a crowded shrimp tank these nutrients needed for the exosceleton of the shrimps reached a deficiency limit ?


----------



## kvntran (Feb 16, 2008)

sandiegoryu said:


> I have similar experiences Wasserpest. I had many cherries in my 10 gallon, and they were all pink, and dull colored. I thought they may be wild form but I looked it up on the internet and it did not look wild. So I took some males and females and put it in my 2 gallon. They started getting a intense red, and the offspring were also very red. I returned them into my 10 gallon and they remained red for the rest of their lives.
> 
> Why? I dunno. But that is my experience.


This is very interesting. Can you repeat the test? turning the whole colony to deep red by separating them, then restocking them back to the original tank.


----------



## Moe (Jan 22, 2004)

I had RSC in a non co2 10 gallon tank, I moved them all to my 75 that has CO2 and the shrimp have a deeper red coloring than before.


----------



## sandiegoryu (Feb 15, 2006)

Funny that I found and came back to this thread two years later for a completely different reason.

So to kvntran, I cannot repeat my experience. Sorry. All of my tanks are saltwater now. I'm about to sell everything and convert back to freshwater though.

You know, it might just be an issue with age. No? I remember there was a correlation between age and how red your RCS was. And maybe I only thought that moving the shrimp caused them to deepen their coloration when it might have just been the factor of time.


----------



## Birds'nBunny (Sep 3, 2008)

When I returned home after being away for several months, I found that the RCS in my shrimp-only tank were much less vibrant, then when I'd left, and also that I didn't have any berried females. I didn't press the house-sitter for details, but assumed they hadn't been receiving very good care. The other odd thing was that all the adult shrimp, except for one female, had disappeared and seemingly been replaced by what I can only describe as teenagers. I now had a population of sub-adult shrimp that were all about the same size, as if all the mature shrimp had somehow been wiped out.

I got the tank back onto its normal routine, but the shrimp remained the same, and they still weren't breeding. I decided to put a few of the Cherries into my community tank just to see what would happen. I spotted one about week later in the Java Moss. The brilliant red she'd become in her new environment made her easy to see. The other shrimp I saw the next day that was hanging out of my Blue Ram's mouth was also bright red (sorry, little shrimp!) but I guess that's to be expected.

After a month or so, I decided to switch the shrimp-only tank over to Tiger Shrimp. I rounded up all the RCS and found them new homes. Of course, once I got the Tigers in, I spotted a few rogue Cherries who'd managed to avoid being netted. I wasn't too worried about it, because it seemed to be just three small males. Then a week or two later, what do I see, but a mature, bright red, berried female(??)
I'm glad this thread got revived because I've been puzzling over this situation. Perhaps, when a "predator" (that's me) decimated the shrimp population it spurred them to start breeding again?

Now that I have the Tigers (who are much cuter, by the way!) I'm wondering if anyone has had similar experiences with Dwarf Shrimp other than RCS.


----------

