# Help, my neos are dying... (solved)



## bamaman (Jan 9, 2018)

I had the same problem when I started my shrimp colony. I cut back my water changes to once every 2 weeks and most of the time just once a month and I haven't lost any shrimp in awhile 

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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

Very detailed first post, I applaud you. 
The only thing that stands out after initial read is the GH and KH from the city report are both pretty low. A dGH of 6 is generally a good idea for Neo's, I would never go lower than 4 dGH though bare minimum, which you're currently almost a full degree under. Just because some shrimp will successfully molt doesn't mean there aren't molting issues causing deaths. You could buy a pre-mixed, but all you really need to add GH is MgSO4.7H2O(Epsom salt) and CaSO4.2H2O(hydrated molecule so it doesn't absorb water!). You can then use these in a 3 ppm Ca: 1 ppm Mg ratio to raise your GH. Rotalabutterfly.com has an AMAZING calculator you can use to figure out how much a specific amount of Ca and Mg will raise your GH. I would be happy to go into this more with you, if that's the route you choose. It's MUCH cheaper long run to do your "roll your own" GH buffer vs. spending money on something like Salty Shrimp. 

As far as substrate, I wouldn't worry about it. Neo's are easy. If we were talking Caridina, then I might care a bit more. KH will buffer pH and prevent swings. You may want to consider bumping your KH to 3 dKH, I keep mine at 4 dKH and all shrimp are doing wonderfully and breeding like rabbits on horny 'roids.

pH is lowering as it's off-gassing, I believe. Not 100% certain on that, but when I ran tap instead of RODI, my heavily aerated tap would come out at a pH of 8.5 or there abouts and then drop into the mid-upper 7's.

I would keep up water changes, your 10% isn't causing any harm. I do nearly 50% every week on my 10 gallon shrimp tank and haven't had deaths in a while. I really think your culprit is a low GH here.


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## swarley (Apr 12, 2018)

Yep. Your tap is fairly soft. Get a GH and KH booster, or at least just the GH booster. mgeorges is on point with the advice.


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## The Raging Chihuahua (Jun 12, 2018)

mgeorges said:


> Very detailed first post, I applaud you.
> The only thing that stands out after initial read is the GH and KH from the city report are both pretty low. A dGH of 6 is generally a good idea for Neo's, I would never go lower than 4 dGH though bare minimum, which you're currently almost a full degree under. Just because some shrimp will successfully molt doesn't mean there aren't molting issues causing deaths. You could buy a pre-mixed, but all you really need to add GH is MgSO4.7H2O(Epsom salt) and CaSO4.2H2O(hydrated molecule so it doesn't absorb water!). You can then use these in a 3 ppm Ca: 1 ppm Mg ratio to raise your GH. Rotalabutterfly.com has an AMAZING calculator you can use to figure out how much a specific amount of Ca and Mg will raise your GH. I would be happy to go into this more with you, if that's the route you choose. It's MUCH cheaper long run to do your "roll your own" GH buffer vs. spending money on something like Salty Shrimp.
> 
> As far as substrate, I wouldn't worry about it. Neo's are easy. If we were talking Caridina, then I might care a bit more. KH will buffer pH and prevent swings. You may want to consider bumping your KH to 3 dKH, I keep mine at 4 dKH and all shrimp are doing wonderfully and breeding like rabbits on horny 'roids.
> ...





mgeorges said:


> Very detailed first post, I applaud you.
> The only thing that stands out after initial read is the GH and KH from the city report are both pretty low. A dGH of 6 is generally a good idea for Neo's, I would never go lower than 4 dGH though bare minimum, which you're currently almost a full degree under. Just because some shrimp will successfully molt doesn't mean there aren't molting issues causing deaths. You could buy a pre-mixed, but all you really need to add GH is MgSO4.7H2O(Epsom salt) and CaSO4.2H2O(hydrated molecule so it doesn't absorb water!). You can then use these in a 3 ppm Ca: 1 ppm Mg ratio to raise your GH. Rotalabutterfly.com has an AMAZING calculator you can use to figure out how much a specific amount of Ca and Mg will raise your GH. I would be happy to go into this more with you, if that's the route you choose. It's MUCH cheaper long run to do your "roll your own" GH buffer vs. spending money on something like Salty Shrimp.
> 
> As far as substrate, I wouldn't worry about it. Neo's are easy. If we were talking Caridina, then I might care a bit more. KH will buffer pH and prevent swings. You may want to consider bumping your KH to 3 dKH, I keep mine at 4 dKH and all shrimp are doing wonderfully and breeding like rabbits on horny 'roids.
> ...


Thank you for your answer. I’m not quite sure I understand the formulas you gave. I get it’s basically calcium and magnesium, but that’s about it! Where are the instructions??  I would be happy to learn from your method.


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## swarley (Apr 12, 2018)

Rotala butterfly (google to find it) is the calculator which makes it much easier. If not, I would buy a GH booster premade with instructions to make it simpler since it should tell you how much to add per degree of GH per gallon tank you have. And then you can hone in on the dosage with the testing kit. Salty Shrimp is a brand many breeders swear by.


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## madcrafted (Dec 23, 2017)

Salty Shrimp is great if you need to re-mineralize RO/DI water for certain species because it has more than just calcium and magnesium in that "salt". It isn't a GH booster. For neos, tap water and a GH booster is all that's needed. @mgeorges provided the most cost effective solution.


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## The Raging Chihuahua (Jun 12, 2018)

mrgeorges, you say "KH will buffer pH and prevent swings. You may want to consider bumping your KH to 3 dKH". Wouldn't adding KH also raise PH?

I think I would prefer to go with a premixed product, but still can't figure if I need a GH booster only or a GH/KH one.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Yes, adding KH could raise pH.


First off - get the GH and KH liquid test kits to confirm your water parameters. DO NOT buy anything to raise parameters until you know for sure what you need.


Second - what are you feeding them?


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## The Raging Chihuahua (Jun 12, 2018)

Zoidburg, I was trying to gain some time, with the city water report, but you're right. I'll wait. 

If my PH is already a steady 7.6 and I don't want to increase it, should I avoid increasing KH at all cost? Why do you say "could raise ph"?

I feed them boiled bio cucumbers or lettuce, give it to them for a couple of hours and then remove it, wait 48 hours, give them Omega one shrimp and lobster pellets, about 5-6 pellets. The amanos rush for it and after a while, they break and the neos can have some. I then wait 2 days after feeding again. Sometimes, I drop a red tropical fish food flake as they seem to like it (they fight for it). Do you have something to suggest?


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

You can have a higher KH but lower pH due to other things in the water. It's possible to have 3 KH with 7.5 pH or even 9 KH and 7.5 pH. There are more things that control pH than just KH alone.


I wouldn't say to avoid increasing KH at all costs, in fact, if your substrate is inert/no longer active, but the KH falls into the 0-2 range, I'd recommend increasing it for more stable pH parameters!


But if you don't know what your GH and KH are currently at, you could cause more harm than good by trying to fix parameters.


I can tell you that the fish flakes and Omega One foods aren't good for them. Ideally, they should be on an algae/vegetable based diet and those foods are animal/fish based. Too much protein plus not enough calcium in the water column could be a recipe for disaster... heck, one alone could cause issues! So I'd recommend looking for algae/vegetable based diets (*READ LABELS*) and feed that as a base diet. The animal/fish protein is okay if fed once a week, but no more than that.


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## swarley (Apr 12, 2018)

Zoidburg said:


> You can have a higher KH but lower pH due to other things in the water. It's possible to have 3 KH with 7.5 pH or even 9 KH and 7.5 pH. There are more things that control pH than just KH alone.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't say to avoid increasing KH at all costs, in fact, if your substrate is inert/no longer active, but the KH falls into the 0-2 range, I'd recommend increasing it for more stable pH parameters!
> ...


algae wafers, bacter ae, etc is pretty good right? also products from the Dennerle Shrimp King line, and similar products are probably good for the shrimps' health.


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## Reks (Apr 17, 2018)

Very nice detailed post, I applaud you! I can skip the obvious first step of asking for water parameters haha! From what I've been told GH is far more important than the KH for shrimp. So I would go with the salty shrimp GH+ if your GH readout is accurate then it's way too low and I suspect that may be the reason you're losing shrimp (due to failed molts from not enough calcium in the water) neos need a GH of about 6-8 so getting the GH+ would be beneficial in that regard. Everything else with your parameters seems fine to me. What are you feeding them? You could also try feeding them foods that are calcium rich which will help with the hardness of their shells (ie. Spinach or Kale? Can't remember which one is more calcium rich, but I feed both to my shrimp, they love it. Get the organic stuff, shrimp + possible pesticide contaminants = a very sad day). On the GH front, wait until you get your liquid tests to confirm what your actual GH/KH is before buying anything (no need to waste money on something you may not need right?)


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

The Raging Chihuahua said:


> Thank you for your answer. I’m not quite sure I understand the formulas you gave. I get it’s basically calcium and magnesium, but that’s about it! Where are the instructions??  I would be happy to learn from your method.


If you want to go the route of MgSO4 and CaSO4 to raise GH, I'd be more than happy to go into detail about ratios, ppm's, etc. Just send me a PM and we can talk about it. I do agree with zoidburg, get those test kits just to confirm that your tap is low GH and KH. And as zoidburg mentioned, adding more KH CAN raise the pH, but I'd be more concerned with keeping things stable. Keep in mind, Neo's are incredibly adaptable and once they start dropping babies, those babies will thrive in the parameters they are raised in. A little bump in pH isn't going to be a concern. 

It sounds like you've really done your homework. It sounds like you're doing everything right, we just need to get the tap water corrected, most likely, and you'll have a booming colony in no time!


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

"Algae wafers" - seriously, read the label! Many of them, algae isn't on the ingredient list until the 5th to 9th item! What are they made of?!?!?! Fish or fish meal. *IF* you were to feed these, it needs to be once a week at most. The majority of them *aren't* "algae wafers"... rather, they are "algae infused". You'd think with a name like "algae wafer" that algae would be within the top 3 ingredients, if not the number 1 ingredient on the list! But no...

Cobalt Aquatics Algae Grazers - algae is the 7th ingredient

Hikari Algae Wafers - 5th ingredient

Marineland Algae Wafers - 9th ingredient

API Fish Care Algae Eater Wafers - 6th ingredient

New Life Spectrum Algaemax Wafers - 1st ingredient!

Ken's Premium Vegetable Sticks (3 versions) - mixture of vegetables and plants (including algae)


My shrimp colony was living and breeding, but not thriving. It seemed like I had enough births to make up for the deaths that would occur several times a week. "Everything" checked out fine. Everyone else was just as confused as I was as to what the issue could be until finally someone said it could be the food. I switched them onto an algae/vegetable based diet fed twice a week, then a protein based diet once a week. All of a sudden, I had *tons* of berried females and the deaths *drastically* reduced in number!

Even with shrimp products, you need to read the label! (this goes for Dennerle or any other brand of shrimp products!) I've got shrimp specific food that I no longer feed because of the ingredients. Might use it someday, but that will be a long time away!


As far as products like Bacter AE.... I don't feed it. Not to say that I wouldn't, I just don't have any and haven't bought any. Bacter AE in particular needs to be under-dosed. Overdosing can kill several shrimp, if not an entire colony. Some people will use the amount that will stick on the tip of their dry finger so as to not overdose. There may be other products out there that grow biofilm without causing an issue to water quality or oxygen levels like Bacter AE might.


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

Zoidburg said:


> "Algae wafers" - seriously, read the label! Many of them, algae isn't on the ingredient list until the 5th to 9th item! What are they made of?!?!?! Fish or fish meal. *IF* you were to feed these, it needs to be once a week at most. The majority of them *aren't* "algae wafers"... rather, they are "algae infused". You'd think with a name like "algae wafer" that algae would be within the top 3 ingredients, if not the number 1 ingredient on the list! But no...
> 
> Cobalt Aquatics Algae Grazers - algae is the 7th ingredient
> 
> ...


So to be clear, you recommend NLS Algaemax and KensFish veggie sticks? I'm down to make a change in my food. My neo's have been getting NLS community fish pellets, spinach and Hikari fish food. Not ideal, you don't have to tell me! They've been doing very well, no random deaths, but if improving diet could say...improve berried females clutch numbers?...that would be great, because my females do seem to drop a lot of eggs before they reach maturity.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

I'd actually recommend food from OMGAquatics, but I don't see that he's selling food on his site anymore.

I have and have been using Kens Veggie Sticks and yes, would recommend them! However, I have not used NSL Algaemax so can't comment directly. It does contain fish in it, but it's a bit further down on the list. I can't tell if it's the second ingredient or after with the way the ingredient list is made. Looking at a different ingredient list, it looks like Fish is the second ingredient, but they used a variety of algae types as the first ingredient. *IF* you were to use it for shrimp, it would probably be one of the better "algae wafer" products out there on the market, since algae is at least the first ingredient. Now, I don't know if it would be good to feed this once a week or twice a week.


I wasn't having females dropping eggs really, so not sure how a diet change may help (maybe stressed by fish?), but my females have had larger clutches of eggs and more females berried at once! I went from one or two females berried, or 6 or more at a time! Right now though, I have more young shrimp than I do adults.


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## Reks (Apr 17, 2018)

Zoidburg said:


> I'd actually recommend food from OMGAquatics, but I don't see that he's selling food on his site anymore.
> 
> I have and have been using Kens Veggie Sticks and yes, would recommend them! However, I have not used NSL Algaemax so can't comment directly. It does contain fish in it, but it's a bit further down on the list. I can't tell if it's the second ingredient or after with the way the ingredient list is made. Looking at a different ingredient list, it looks like Fish is the second ingredient, but they used a variety of algae types as the first ingredient. *IF* you were to use it for shrimp, it would probably be one of the better "algae wafer" products out there on the market, since algae is at least the first ingredient. Now, I don't know if it would be good to feed this once a week or twice a week.
> 
> ...


Darn you Zoidburg, now you've convinced me to get some of the veggie sticks! (I ordered the ones with calcium so we'll see how my shrimp like them) thanks for the info on algae wafers, definitely a good thing to know, I never really thought about the ingredients list on algae wafers.


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## ILikeRice (Jul 9, 2017)

https://www.discobee.com/products/tantora-b-leaves

TBH blanched spinach works great alone., but when you want extra vitamins and minerals you buy :]


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## The Raging Chihuahua (Jun 12, 2018)

Yes, I wasn't planning on adding anything in my tank without testing water first, BUT I was trying to be more effective on the shipping time for the GH or GH/KH product. (Still can't make a decision, will wait for the test kits).




Zoidburg said:


> I can tell you that the fish flakes and Omega One foods aren't good for them. Ideally, they should be on an algae/vegetable based diet and those foods are animal/fish based. Too much protein plus not enough calcium in the water column could be a recipe for disaster... heck, one alone could cause issues! So I'd recommend looking for algae/vegetable based diets (*READ LABELS*) and feed that as a base diet. The animal/fish protein is okay if fed once a week, but no more than that.


I was well aware that "algae wafer" are generally far from being algae alone. I used to feed Hikari algae wafers to my amanos before, until I read that label and found out it was basically the same ingredients as the Omega One shrimp and lobster pellets. The algae wafer would disintegrate in the tank quite fast and I didn't like it at all, and that's why I kept only feeding the pellets. I'll reduce to once a week or less.

I'll be looking for more vegetables. My LFS sells dried spinach, would that be good?

Bump: I really appreciate all your food suggestions!! 

Ken's veggie sticks and Discobee sticks look amazing...! The only thing is the shipping price is overkill!!! 35-50$ shipping for an 8-15$ product :| And we didn't even talk about the conversion from US to Canadian $...

I'm trying to find something similar, but already in Canada. I found plain dried spinach at my LFS. I also sent an email to my favorite online shop to see if they have something to suggest that would be veggie-based or algae-based and calcium-rich.


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## ILikeRice (Jul 9, 2017)

Here yo go bud.
http://www.shrimptopia.ca
Should use organic food btw.
Generally you want to feed veggie/veggie/protein. Up to you though.


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## swarley (Apr 12, 2018)

This @Zoidburg is quite the salesman/woman. I'm probably gonna be purchasing those veggie sticks, calcium or not, from Kensfish. Currently. besides grazing. my shrimp feed on the Aquatic Arts Algae Wafers and Bacter AE a couple times a week (like a small pinch that fits on the tip of my scissors.).


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## kashif314 (Oct 11, 2017)

You need to increase yoir gh. You can use liquid boosters like 

Sl Aqua Blue Wizard 

It will increase your gh to your desired level. It won't effect your ph ot Kh. Very safe and amazing product. Or you can go for salty bee gh booster. Any you like but I always love liquid boosters as they are very easy to use


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## The Raging Chihuahua (Jun 12, 2018)

Just made a funny discovery while cleaning my tank today: a handful of coral pieces at the bottom of my Fluval spec filter! Can't even remember putting it there (3.5 years ago!). Something I must have done without even knowing the consequences. How could that affect my parameters? I really can't wait to get the GH/KH test kits in the mail tomorrow...


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

The Raging Chihuahua said:


> Just made a funny discovery while cleaning my tank today: a handful of coral pieces at the bottom of my Fluval spec filter! Can't even remember putting it there (3.5 years ago!). Something I must have done without even knowing the consequences. How could that affect my parameters? I really can't wait to get the GH/KH test kits in the mail tomorrow...


Very little impact with a pH of 7.6. If your water were acidic vs basic, I believe it would start buffering both KH and GH because coral is predominantly made up of calcium carbonate.


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

> Just made a funny discovery while cleaning my tank today: a handful of coral pieces at the bottom of my Fluval spec filter! Can't even remember putting it there (3.5 years ago!). Something I must have done without even knowing the consequences. How could that affect my parameters? I really can't wait to get the GH/KH test kits in the mail tomorrow...


There are 4 ingredients that can boost KH:

Sodium or potassium bicarbonate; The easily dissolve in water at any PH and will increase water PH and KH. 

Calcium or magnesium carbonate: These only dissolve in acidic water (PH less than 7). When they dissolve they counteract the acidity and increase PH. However they will not push the PH above 7 and increase the GH. There will be no effect on KH is the acids in the water are from excess sulfur, chlorine or nitrate. When the PH is above 7 they stop dissolving and and no longer have any affect on PH and GH or KH. With your PH above 7 coral you have in your aquarium will not have any significant effect on ph GH. and . This applies to all tanks _without_ CO2 injection.

In tanks with CO2 injection the CO2 will make the water acidic this causes the calcium and magnesium carbonate to dissolve in this case the GH and KH will increase and the PH will stay somewhere between 6 and 7.

Question do you have plants in your tank and are you adding any fertilizer or any other water additives to the tank?


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

If you want spinach, you can just go buy some at the store and blanch it before feeding! 


It might not be an option by I work in a warehouse and I do occasionally see Canadians order products and have it shipped to an address in the states. Once it reaches it's destination in the states, they go down and pick it up. The cost of shipping into Canada can easily triple! Likewise, the cheapest shipping option may still cost $20 and up.


If you have the option of going out into the country away from the city and busy roads, you could also look into finding shrimp safe leaves to feed.


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## The Raging Chihuahua (Jun 12, 2018)

I just tested my GH and KH!

Tank:
GH: 10!!!!!! (did the test twice just to make sure! Absolutely added just 1 drop at a time, shook the bottle first)
Kh: 4

Aged tap water:
GH: 4
Kh: 2

How is it even possible to have a GH of 10 in my tank when it's so low out of my tap? 
Is it the difference between the tap and the tank that's killing my shrimps, even if I drip it back in over several hours?
Can someone help me make sense of all this?
What should I do next?

Bump:


Surf said:


> There are 4 ingredients that can boost KH:
> 
> Sodium or potassium bicarbonate; The easily dissolve in water at any PH and will increase water PH and KH.
> 
> ...


Yes I do, several cryptocorynes (multiple types like undulata, wendti and parva, if I remember correctly) and java ferns. Also have Marimo moss balls that aren't balls anymore. I add like 0.1 ml of Flourish once a week. I don't use CO2 injection.


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## swarley (Apr 12, 2018)

Could be a couple things. Maybe your water changes aren't large enough. Or you are topping off your tanks with Tap water so the minerals are constantly being added to create that concentrated amount in your tank, resulting in the much higher GH values. Or a bit of both.


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## The Raging Chihuahua (Jun 12, 2018)

swarley said:


> Could be a couple things. Maybe your water changes aren't large enough. Or you are topping off your tanks with Tap water so the minerals are constantly being added to create that concentrated amount in your tank, resulting in the much higher GH values. Or a bit of both.


Yes, yes yes!

Water changes are only 10%. I was doing larger ones before (20%), but it killed the shrimps anyway... so I reduced, thinking it was too much for them...

I'm also topping off twice a week (for a total of 1/2 gallon each week). I have a lot of evaporation since I removed the tank lid (or else the temperature rises at 80F, which I find pretty high)... I also have a little fan, but don't always use it. I just make sure the temp doesn't rise above 76F.

But if the GH is at 10, and not 3.3 like the city water report suggested, why are my shrimps still dying? The difference between tap and tank?


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## swarley (Apr 12, 2018)

The GH isn't too high for neos. That's for sure. I'll ask the normal questions, though they probably don't apply to you.

Are you making sure the temperature of the water you're adding is the same as in tank for the water changes?
And are you always treating the water you add to the tank?

I expect the answers are yes to both questions..so I don't really know why. Maybe your nitrate levels are too high because of the small water changes? If GH levels could accumulate so much, I'd guess that nitrate levels could also have continually concentrated as well and became toxic for the shrimp?


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## The Raging Chihuahua (Jun 12, 2018)

swarley said:


> The GH isn't too high for neos. That's for sure. I'll ask the normal questions, though they probably don't apply to you.
> 
> Are you making sure the temperature of the water you're adding is the same as in tank for the water changes?
> And are you always treating the water you add to the tank?
> ...


I always make sure the temperature is the same or .5F to 1F degree less than the tank water when I add it. I put my 1 gallon jug of treated tap water (with Prime, aged for 2 to 4 days) in another larger pot with a little bit of cold water in it (treated water never touches untreated water). I drip it in like 1 drop/second. I also use two thermometers that I periodically check that they show the same temp.

I also always test for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate just before doing a water change, and it's usually at 5ppm, never higher than 10-20ppm (hard to tell with the API color chart). I try to keep at 5ppm or less. 

Nitrates are definitely kept low, but GH is high... ?!?!

I bought kale tonight! Organic baby kale (that's what I meant by bio, sorry I'm French). Maybe their diet is part of the problem... Should I offer it every day? Every other day? I blanched it for 30 seconds and the shrimps found it right away.

Edit: I also have a small bag of Purigen in the filter. Don't know if that can help solve this mystery.


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## swarley (Apr 12, 2018)

Damn you really try to cover all your bases. Almost too much.. I just pour my treated water in, 30-50% water changes and I don't age my water. Just had a 13+ batch of shrimplets thriving and growing too. I also don't really check my water parameters at all anymore. Just use a TDS meter to ballpark it essentially. 

The kale, my guess, would be fed every other day or so. Nutrition seems the next logical step for you, but Neocaridina are supposed to be hella easy to care for. Maybe the shrimp you got were already in bad condition or came from drastically different water parameters, but even still, knowing the type of hobbyist you are, you probably drip acclimated them and followed every damn letter when it comes to good husbandry.. Not sure!

I haven't had a single neo death in my blue dreams. I bought 5 from my LFS and now I probably have 20 or so, including the shrimplets, after about a month since purchase.


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## madcrafted (Dec 23, 2017)

Are you adding Prime to the aged water right before you drip it into your tank? The reason I ask is Prime supposedly only binds ammonia, nitrites and nitrates for 12-24 hours according to Seachem.


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## The Raging Chihuahua (Jun 12, 2018)

madcrafted said:


> Are you adding Prime to the aged water right before you drip it into your tank? The reason I ask is Prime supposedly only binds ammonia, nitrites and nitrates for 12-24 hours according to Seachem.


That's a good question.

I add Prime just after pouring tap water, so it ages with the water. But if there is no ammonia or nitrite, and nitrates are low in the tank before the water change, does it really matter if I don't add Prime just before doing water change?



swarley said:


> Damn you really try to cover all your bases. Almost too much.. I just pour my treated water in, 30-50% water changes and I don't age my water. Just had a 13+ batch of shrimplets thriving and growing too. I also don't really check my water parameters at all anymore. Just use a TDS meter to ballpark it essentially.
> 
> The kale, my guess, would be fed every other day or so. Nutrition seems the next logical step for you, but Neocaridina are supposed to be hella easy to care for. Maybe the shrimp you got were already in bad condition or came from drastically different water parameters, but even still, knowing the type of hobbyist you are, you probably drip acclimated them and followed every damn letter when it comes to good husbandry.. Not sure!
> 
> I haven't had a single neo death in my blue dreams. I bought 5 from my LFS and now I probably have 20 or so, including the shrimplets, after about a month since purchase.


I've just happened to have read a lot in the past 3 months, losing all those neos. Like I said before, with the amanos, 30% water changes in 5 minutes (no drip) every week without ever testing water was perfectly fine. I got the amanos for over a year now. Never had a death. 

I never was that of an aquarist until the massacre started 3 months ago. I really can't stand animals dying. I try to research as much as possible, but I feel totally unconfident with everything I do. 

Question: When you add water after a water change, what are the KH/GH levels of you treated tap compared to the tank's levels?


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## swarley (Apr 12, 2018)

The Raging Chihuahua said:


> Question: When you add water after a water change, what are the KH/GH levels of you treated tap compared to the tank's levels?


I must say I can't tell you for sure. The parameters probably don't change that much. All my tanks are heavily planted as well, and I fert my water every day, a la PPS-PRO. But since I always top off with RO, my KH/GH values can't be that far off between my tap water and tank water. Again, I don't really test my parameters regularly anymore. I just rely on 50% water changes weekly and RO top offs. Maybe once a month I use my TDS meter just to see if it's in the right ball park. (Around 300-320 PPM of random dissolved solids at any given time).


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## The Raging Chihuahua (Jun 12, 2018)

If I do a large water change, I should expect my GH of 10 and KH of 4 to drop accordingly, since my tap is GH4/KH2?

If so, should I do 50% weekly water change and make sure the water I add has the right GH and KH, let's say at least a GH of 6 and a KH of 4? And top off with RO so no minerals are added until the next water changes? 

Maybe I'm not doing my water changes correctly? And they suffer too much drastic change?


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## swarley (Apr 12, 2018)

The 10% water change won't change parameters much and won't reduce the GH/KH concentrations that much either. 

Other's may have pointed out to you, or maybe that was the other thread, about how neos need the higher GH. I don't really think the water changes is the issue. Such a small amount shouldn't be shocking the shrimp since you make sure it's the right temp and what not. Though if you do start doing larger water changes, i would add some product like salty shrimp GH+ to increase the GH a bit to 7 or higher. The GH 10 and KH 4 seems perfect for neos tbh. But it might be good to start incorporating large 50% water changes around once a month or something because there could be buildup of something else thats causing this.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Any chance that there's any rocks or coral in the tank raising the GH parameters???

As mentioned, 10 GH isn't bad for Neos at all.


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## The Raging Chihuahua (Jun 12, 2018)

Zoidburg said:


> Any chance that there's any rocks or coral in the tank raising the GH parameters???
> 
> As mentioned, 10 GH isn't bad for Neos at all.


Some river rocks. Like no more than 5-6 rocks, 1" to 2" each. I also found a handful, maybe 1/3 cup, of coral pieces at the bottom of the filter. But Surf and mrgeorges said my 7.6 PH would be too high for the corals to dissolve...

I think my next step is to do larger water changes with added minerals... Just in case there's a build up of unwanted stuff in the tank... I'll also top off with RO, which I wasn't doing.

If consistency is the key, I think I wasn't consistent enough, at least with GH and KH... I calculated the top off water (1/2 gallon = 10%) added in a week compared to the 10% weekly water change, and I probably remove less water, because of evaporation, in that same period, than I add. That could explain the GH/KH build up compared to the tap.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

You could take out the coral and see if that changes anything. I would recommend at least 7-8 GH.

And ya, the evaporation could indeed be a part of it.


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## The Raging Chihuahua (Jun 12, 2018)

A little update on my tank and shrimps:

I lost another shrimp over the weekend, waiting for Salty Shrimp Bee Shrimp GH+ to come in the mail. I received it today and added 2ml (with little cup that came with it) to a 5 gallon bucket of my tap water. Also added 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda to raise KH of my tap (from 2 to 4 to match tank). I did a 30% water change (about 1.5 gallon dripped over several hours) with these new parameters:

5 gallon of tap water + 2ml Salty Shrimp GH+ + 1/4 teaspoon baking soda
GH: 8
KH: 4
PH: 7.4
TDS: 180

Tank parameters before water change were:
GH: 10
KH: 4
PH: 7.6
TDS: 237

Reminder of tap parameters:
GH: 4
KH: 2
PH: 7.0
TDS: 70

I aim to keep the new parameters the Salty Shrimp + baking soda give me. I'm pretty sure there is/was a buildup of unwanted stuff in the tank since I was topping off with tap water (a lot over a week) and not removing enough water while doing only 10% weekly water change. I switched to distilled water for top off, which will stop the build up.

My only concern now is if the new parameters are too different from the tank's, particularly regarding GH and TDS. But since the shrimps that are left alive suffered from far greater changes over the past 3 months, since I wasn't even testing GH and KH, I'm pretty sure they should make it. 

Oh, and I also added a little airstone to increase water movement. There was an oily patch in a corner of the tank, which has disappeared. Since I'm not using CO2, it should only be beneficial for shrimps and plants (or have no impact at all).

I also noticed the plant growth had considerably slowed down, almost to a stop (cryptocorynes wouldn't produce new leaves and java ferns were getting dark with no baby leaves), in the past 2-3 weeks, despite nitrates being between 5 and 20 ppm and the weekly Flourish dosing. Might also be due to the unwanted stuff build up. Or to the always changing water parameters. Only time will tell if the new parameters are good for them. Consistency won't hurt for sure.

Does anyone have advice or sees something I should do (or shouldn't)?

Edit: I also stopped feeding Omega one shrimp and lobster pellets. I switched to organic kale. I also bought Glasgarten Bacter AE (another reason why I added the airstone) and plan to feed it twice a week, but only a tiny bit at first, to see what it does.


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## swarley (Apr 12, 2018)

Sounds like a good plan so far. Can't wait to hear how the tank does over a week or two. The shrimp and plants should recover. Just need a bit of time to recover and adjust.


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## The Raging Chihuahua (Jun 12, 2018)

My favorite shrimp died an hour after water change was done  It's the one on the picture where my name appears. She was quite different from the others!

I verified the tank's parameters right after, just to make sure, and everything was fine...

GH: still 10
KH: still 4
PH: maybe 7.5 instead of 7.6, slight color variation, but nothing visible compared to the API chart.
TDS: 215
0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, a tiny bit of nitrates, temperature was fine.

I hope no other shrimp will die


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## ILikeRice (Jul 9, 2017)

Can we get a picture of the tank and dead shrimps?


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## The Raging Chihuahua (Jun 12, 2018)

Here are a few shots of my tank, taken this morning (sorry for the quality). Unfortunately, the dead shrimp was long gone. I took a close look at it before discarding it yesterday, and there was no crack on her back. There was a molt though, most probably hers. Everybody seems fine today...

Edit: Don't worry about shrimps being sucked in the filter, I bought a second filter sponge (the same that comes with Fluval spec) and cut it to fit on top of the other to block it from the inside. The little opening on the bottom is also blocked by a piece of sponge.


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## madcrafted (Dec 23, 2017)

Sometimes shrimp just die for no apparent reason, regardless of how stable we keep our parameters. It helps to purchase from local sources to ensure they weren't just imported and re-bagged for sale. It's considered normal to lose a few shrimp at first. I've lost quite a few starting out. 

I doubt the airstone is going to make any noticeable difference in that tank. I have that exact tank and the design allows for great circualtion, awesome biological filtration (pretty much a divided HM filter) and plenty of aeration.

The SS GH+ is a good remineralizer for caridinas as it provides no additional KH. They also make a the same product with KH included for neocaridinas. Baking soda will work, though.


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## The Raging Chihuahua (Jun 12, 2018)

A little update on my tank...

I think I made a lot of mistakes with my first batch of neos:

1. Not checking GH and KH at first
2. Not checking TDS
3. Topping off evaporation water with tap water, adding minerals over time
4. Not doing large enough weekly water change, hence not removing the minerals (which is why I had a GH of 10 and a KH of 4, even if my tap was GH4/KH2). I think this was the most fatal issue, along with #3, since it was causing way too much inconsistency in my tank's parameters.
5. Feeding high animal protein food daily

The main problem I had was shrimps dying from time to time (never had a massive die off), even the plants started to die. All the java ferns I had turned yellow, then brown, and died, so I removed them all. The crypts started to rot too and completely stopped growing. Fortunately, the shrimps saved them by eating the rotted parts away. 

Here is what I did:

1. I stabilized GH and KH with Salty shrimp GH+ and baking soda (GH 9, KH 4)
2. I also stabilized TDS (around 200)
3. I now do top offs with distilled water
4. I do 40-50% weekly water change
5. I completely changed their diet to organic kale and spinach 3X/week + small dose of Bacter AE 2X/week + Genchem White pellets 2X/week
6. I lowered my temp from 74-76 to 72-74 (not a big difference, but it seems to help slow down the shrimps deaths)
7. I added an airstone just for peace of mind (and for Bacter AE)

On July 3rd, I bought 16 new adult shrimps from a different seller, which came with about 10 tiny shrimplets in the bag. I’m counting on the babies to adapt, survive and breed. I still encounter some deaths (like 2 or 3 since I added more shrimps), but way less than before. I think it’s the older ones that are unable to adapt, even if they came from a water similar to mine (GH 9, KH 5). I have to mention that I never saw the "white band of death" on any dead shrimp, but I know it doesn’t mean they didn’t suffer from molting issues... Also, after almost a month of stabilized conditions, crypts have finally started to grow some new leaves again. I even got runners! And I never had runners before in almost 4 years with this tank!!!

Oh and I a new friend in the tank also, a little horned nerite snail. He’s slow, very slow, but does a really good job cleaning algae on the glass.

I read a post from Zoidburg stating Amanos could survive a nuclear war, and I have to agree: they don’t seem to be affected by any changes I made since late April, when I first added neos. They are tough as nails, or as I would say in French, "sont faites en fer!!" (They’re made of iron).

I now have to wait and see if the adult females will become berried. There’s about 12 of them that are saddled at the moment. In fact, I’m not worried about them becoming berried, I’m more worried they won’t be able to keep the eggs until they hatch... Is there something I can do about that?


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

As long as the females don't become stressed, they should keep the eggs until the eggs hatch.


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## The Raging Chihuahua (Jun 12, 2018)

I tried to research what could cause stress to shrimps and found an article online about shrimp farming... About 20 different things can cause stress to shrimps!! I know it’s about farming, but I’m pretty sure most of these can apply to dwarf shrimps kept in homes too.

Here is the article:

http://neospark.com/images/stressor.pdf

Anyways, I finally have my first berried female since yesterday! I even know she’s from the first batch of shrimps I got because of her markings (half her rostrum has no coloration). She’s not the prettiest, but she’s a tough one! I guess her babies will be too (if she can keep them until they hatch).


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## The Raging Chihuahua (Jun 12, 2018)

I got a second berried female! And she’s full of eggs! Way more than berried female #1! Look at the difference (sorry for cellphone quality). I didn’t realize BF #1 didn’t have much until #2 came up. In fact, it’s difficult to see #1’s eggs, at least in the pic. I think she dropped some eggs too.

Berried female #1 with less than 10 eggs or so









Berried female #2 with 40 eggs or so









As an update, also, I did my weekly water change on Saturday and my filter pump didn’t want to restart when I plugged it back. I thought it was dead and was almost panicking. At 8 pm on a Saturday, no chance to get another filter or pump at the store. So I battled with it for 2 hours to just get it out of the tank. If you’re familiar with the Fluval Spec tank, you know the filter pump is not at all user-friendly, with the suction cups sticking it to the bottom of the tank in a very small opening... I finally got the damn thing out of the tank and it was sooooooo clogged up... Running tap water through the hose was not enough to get it to start again. I had to fill up my kitchen sink, plug the pump and hit it (gently) against the sink. It started again!!! There was so much gunk and decaying matter getting out of it, I couldn’t believe it. Water flow is now better than ever. Maybe the clogged pump was also contributing to the shrimps’ death, maybe not. I’m pretty sure that’s why I constantly had an oily patch in a corner of the tank, though.


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