# 50 Gallon, Keyhole Cichlids & Friends (DIY)



## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

About the lighting: I realize the aquarium world has mostly gone to LED lighting. One of the serious drawbacks I see to LED lighting is that most of the commercial lights are designed to be suspended over a tank. This creates a problem with light spilling out into the room, and if viewing the tank from a seated position, you get an eyeful of direct light. NOT FOR ME! 

Rather than build a full hood, I decided to modify the Aqueon Light bars that came with the tank. I like the enclosed flip top design that keeps all the light in the tank. The stock bars come with a 15 Watt fluorescent bulb on each side, not enough for plants.

I started my journey in a thread in the lighting forum, where I researched my options for using inexpensive 3W LEDS. I'm really happy with the design I came up with.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/1164009-how-many-3w-leds-low-tech-55-a.html

This design contains 60x 3W leds, which should make it roughly equivalent to a Green Element EVO Quad. (At half the cost.) I believe this will be considered "high light". I used the inexpensive Drivers and LEDs from [Ebay Link Removed] I have a tendency to over analyze things so late one night I just pulled the trigger and bought these parts and decided to make them work instead of geeking out over all the lighting options.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Just received a huge batch of plants from MarylandGuppy on this forum. (Thank You!) These are beautiful and in great shape. He told me what each one was and how it grows, but I'm going to have to look them up again so I can learn the names and how to care for them. There are too many to remember. After I get an idea of what I have, I can decide which ones go in the back, middle, foreground, etc and then plant them.

With any luck, tomorrow I'll make the leap to high-tech. Today I built a Griggs reactor and the CO2 should arrive tomorrow. I'll probably run the CO2 into an empty tank for a couple days to make sure it won't gas my fish.

I priced out the commercial CO2 reactors and now its clear why everyone builds them. For instance, the MixMax reactor, which I was considering buying, is basically just a small Griggs reactor made out of cheap plastic, with tiny inlet/outlets and a fan gimmick. For a few dollars more, I have a 2' long PVC griggs w/ 3/4" inlets that will never break.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

This is what I have to work with. Decisions. . . 

One thing I've realized is that the Epistar 6500K have too blue of a tint, or too low of a CRI to be used as the basis for the lighting without adding other colors.

The right side of the tank utilzed some warm white 3.5K and it looks better than the left, but its still not complete. Unfortunately, the "natural light" 4.5K are too yellow, leaving an apparent gap.

I have some ideas how to address this.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

With a layer of soil and C02 those plants are going to explode. Plan on it taking a little longer to cycle though... and I don't have to tell you to place the plants where you want them the first time... uprooting and replanting in soil is horribly messy.
What regulator did you go with?
I'm very excited to see the Keyholes and other stock.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> With a layer of soil and C02 those plants are going to explode. Plan on it taking a little longer to cycle though... and I don't have to tell you to place the plants where you want them the first time... uprooting and replanting in soil is horribly messy.
> What regulator did you go with?
> I'm very excited to see the Keyholes and other stock.


Tank is already cycled. I took the canister and sponge from another tank. Whatever ammonia is leeching from the soil is being converted by the filtration. Parameters look great.

I'm going to start really slow with the CO2, maybe 1bps and see where I am. I went with the cheap ebay regulator.. it actually looks solid. I figured all but the really expensive regulators are made in china, probably the same factories. But.. it could be junk.. will just have to see. I'll post pics later or it and the reactor when I set them up.

My biggest concern right now is getting the color temperature correct. The cheap 6500K leds I used are too blue, and/or possibly the tank glass is casting a shade on everything. I'm sure it will grow plants, but it just doesnt look right.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

ChrisX said:


> Tank is already cycled. I took the canister and sponge from another tank. Whatever ammonia is leeching from the soil is being converted by the filtration. Parameters look great.
> 
> I'm going to start really slow with the CO2, maybe 1bps and see where I am. I went with the cheap ebay regulator.. it actually looks solid. I figured all but the really expensive regulators are made in china, probably the same factories. But.. it could be junk.. will just have to see. I'll post pics later or it and the reactor when I set them up.
> 
> My biggest concern right now is getting the color temperature correct. The cheap 6500K leds I used are too blue, and/or possibly the tank glass is casting a shade on everything. I'm sure it will grow plants, but it just doesnt look right.


As long as you test.... I started up my 75 with a fully cycled AC70 AND an Eheim 2217 and still had enough of a cycle to kill 5 Emperor Tetras, 4 Bolivian Rams, and 3 Furcata Rainbows.
I would really like to go with the GLA GRO regulator I think, but Ive seen nice aquatek ones for half the price. Let me know how yours does please in terms of holding steady BPS and ease of adjustment and everything. Are you going to inject this tank only or also the 29? While I'm doing 2 75's they are on top of one another and everything else is the same so I'm thinking one port is fine. 
Id like to see a pic of the Keyholes when you get them set up. Ive heard a lot about them, but never seen them in person... I don't think... unless they go by another name. 
Personally I think the 6500K LEDs are too yellow. That is whats in the Beamswork DHL. It wasn't until I added the FSPEC with full RGB LEDS and 10K LEDs that I got the color I wanted. I will tell you that the water will take on a yellowish look on its own... you may want to give it some time. In that case the predominately blue look will give a better white. Just my experience with dirted tanks. 
What other than Keyholes? I love the diversity of the tanks on here. I especially love the Rainbows, South and Central American Cichlids, anything a little different.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

They've been in the tank about a month. After adding them to the 50, a pair formed and spawned. They have had two batches of eggs that they ate, so I moved them back to the 29 which is now their breeding tank. These videos are of the male and female. Male is about 3.5" total length.

They aren't pretty like rainbows but they have cichlid intelligence and are a good "large" fish that is compatible with small schooling fish. 

The keyhole family are the only fish I own. Once the plants and tank are sorted I will start adding some schools.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYsRBcgxehI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rq2_bxU3aOs

Doesnt seem possible to embed videos.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

CO2

I took a chance on buying the least expensive CO2 regulator w/ solenoid from ebay ($35). Chinese factories are contracted to build these, and these cheap unbranded ones are likely functionally identical to some of the cheaper branded ones that sell in stores. 

The risk in buying this is that it is DIN477 and uses EU/UK voltage. I had to order a DIN477 -> paintball adapter from CO2ART ($15). No one on this side of the pond sells one that mates to DIN477. I was planning to use paintball tank, so I would have had to buy an adapter anyway; this was not an additional expense. Free shipping from UK took ten days. I added a Drop Checker ($15) and silicone tubing ($4) to my order to qualify for the free shipping. The adapter itself is well made with an adjustable brass plunger to activate the paintball tank.

Getting it to use EU power was also a risk, but its a low wattage device and the $7 adapter from amazon is doing the trick. The solenoid opens with a satisfying click on power. Gets only slightly warm over extended period.

Construction looks very solid, and while I do not hear any leaks, time will tell. Fittings are brass into steel housing. The needle valve offers good resistance and seems to have fine granularity. It was no chore to dial in 1 bps per my watch. It also comes with a glass (?) bubble counter. This does not have a check valve which leads me to wonder if it was upended, could water from the counter enter the regulator?

The gauges each read different pressure. I presume one of them is the working pressure and the other is the tank pressure. The tank pressure gauge looks low to me; I have no idea what pressure a paintball tank should read. 

New paintball tank from Amazon ($23) was filled at Dick's for $5. Every fifth fill is free. They fill by weight and add 23.5 oz to the 24oz tank. 

I am currently testing the flow rate to see if it remains the same over an extended period. I dialed in 1 bps and periodically check to see if it is still 1 bps. Also will be testing to see that the rate remains constant after solenoid activation.

So far, everything is working properly, almost too well. I am cautiously optimistic. With DIY Griggs reactor ($25), EVERYTHING, including the regulator, tank, fill, drop checker, silicone line, paintball adapter, power adapter, etc came to about $125.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I used paintball containers for a while. Had 4 24 ounce ones. I went through one every 2 weeks I think. Leaks all the time... and then half the time Sports Authority's CO2 thing was down... I had to readjust the valve every 3 days or so. Can't do that again I got 2 20lb tanks from my Pops who had them for the outside bar for the beers they kept on tap. I think it's $16 to fill them?? I would guess a 20lb tank would last in excess of a year and I have a second filled. That's why I'm thinking of spending the cash to get a good unit and set it up once and be done for a year or more.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I didn't have a free 20# tank so I got this. Good luck with your system.


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

A good alternative small ciclid that isn't as territorial as the Keyhole Acaras, are the Nannacara Anamola or Golden Eye Dwarf ciclid. The male I had is in my siggy picture. The males can be incredibly pretty and there are now, newer varieties now that have a blue iridescence.










Mine was the plain old turquoise green, but still a neat fish with lots of personality. The females tend to stay somewhat drab though.

They stay small, the females only get about 1.8" and the males at best 3" They also are a little mellower when spawning and raising a brood but the females can become little tyrants, depending on if they can easily bully some of the smaller dither fish. They aren't fussy about fresh and live food like some Apisto's are.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Those are nice, I've never seen them before. I chose keyholes because they have an attractive (tall) body shape and they are probably the largest cichlid you can keep in a planted aquarium with small schooling fish. The other choices were festivum and bandit cichlids, but they are more agressive and/or dig. Angels are wonderful but more agressive in groups and can eat small fish. Rams are also a good choice, but they are too small for what I wanted.

Keyholes are actually quite peaceful, but the breeding pair did get aggressive.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

2' x 2" Griggs reactor. I used flat top and bottom pieces with elbows so I could adjust direction to help fit under cabinet. I have seen other designs with curved top an bottom PVC. I don't think these help with flow rate, the loss in flow is more likely related to the force required to overcome the additional level change. However, curved top would help against CO2 pooling at the top. Also, I chose to put the inlet nearer the top, but Ive seen other designs with it in the middle.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I'm trying to decide between that and the Cerges. How is yours set up on the inside? Or is it just open straight through? Are you changing anything about the output of the canister? I was thinking of modifying a spray bar that stook vertically to try and get it down further in the water rather than right at the top where they normally have the outputs


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Here it is installed and running. I was having problems fitting tubing over the nylon connect, so I replaced it with brass parts (which took some searching.)

I went with the Griggs because it was less expensive and simpler to build; if the design was not good it would not have endured. The Cerges is an expression of the same design but using a water filter housing that costs $20 itself and that has less internal volume. I suppose it makes sense if you don't have any power tools to cut PVC or you are limited in space. Cerges inlet/outlet are smaller diameter which makes it more likely to restrict flow, unless your filter has 1/2" ID tubing.

I don't notice any reduced flow with SunSun 302b, but that filter does not move much water to begin with.. claimed 264gph.

I used 3/4" barbed elbow connector to 3/4" MIP. My tubing is 5/8" inner diameter. The only thing I dislike so far is that 5/8" barbed was unavailable locally; the tubing fits but can't be removed.. which make installation a PITA. I will either get 5/8" MIP fittings or install quick connects.

Will start CO2 tomorrow, just running water through reactor to test for leaks.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Did you use bio balls or anything inside the reactor? Simple and cheap is good.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> Did you use bio balls or anything inside the reactor? Simple and cheap is good.


NO, it doesnt need bio balls.


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## aceranch (Dec 21, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> Those are nice, I've never seen them before. I chose keyholes because they have an attractive (tall) body shape and they are probably the largest cichlid you can keep in a planted aquarium with small schooling fish. The other choices were festivum and bandit cichlids, but they are more agressive and/or dig. Angels are wonderful but more agressive in groups and can eat small fish. Rams are also a good choice, but they are too small for what I wanted.
> 
> Keyholes are actually quite peaceful, but the breeding pair did get aggressive.




I love festivums but they aren't planted compatible. They also get moody the larger they get and bitey if you spend time with your hands in the tank.











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

aceranch said:


> I love festivums but they aren't planted compatible. They also get moody the larger they get and bitey if you spend time with your hands in the tank.


I dont think I would want to keep any fish that would bite my hand. That is, quite literally, "biting the hand that feeds."


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Griggs reactor ran all night and there were no leaks. After installation, there was a sloshing sound inside from trapped air, which was gone by this morning. Today I ran CO2 for the first time!

Plan was to wait for the drop checker to turn green, then turn on the lights. Started at 1 bps, after an hour 2 bps, after another hour of no change to the drop checker.. 3bps. 

The drop checker wasn't changing (and I'll be honest I was concerned) despite a rather large swing in pH from 8.0 to 6.6, When pH got to 6.6, I noticed the keyholes respiration was faster even though they were acting normally. I dialed back to 2bps and turned on the lights. Whole process took over three hours.

After lights were on a couple hours, drop checker turned dark green. It seems that the drop checker lags the actual value of CO2. I will probably run 2bps for a couple hours before lights on. 

So far, I highly recommend the fleabay regulator. Its easy to adjust, solenoid clicks with authority, and bubble rate is constant. The CO2Art adapter works perfectly with it and I dont... think... there are any leaks. With the griggs reactor, it looks like 2 bps can get me to the target (eventually), so hopefully this means the paintball tank will last a good while.

After CO2 was flowing.. decided to aquascape. This is my first fully planted tank. I have to thank MarylandGuppy for all his plant trimmings; I know I wouldn't have picked as diverse a selection on my own. 

Scaping the tank I just improvised, I don't know what half these things are. I used every trimming except a spindly branch of something I couldn't identify. I'm sure it will change and improve over time; the goal now is to grow!

The left side of the tank is "v2" of the light and is noticeably brighter. On the middle setting, plants were bubbling quite a bit. I'm going to soon update the right side lights to "version 3" which should have some new tricks. So far pleased with the light performance but I need to make the colors more vivid, these 6.5K lights blanch everything out.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Is the CO2 and filter outlet still using the regular spraybar at the regular height? I was considering making a fitting to place the spray bar much lower in the water column so that CO2 enriched water isn't gassing off right to the surface.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> Is the CO2 and filter outlet still using the regular spraybar at the regular height? I was considering making a fitting to place the spray bar much lower in the water column so that CO2 enriched water isn't gassing off right to the surface.


Just aim it down a little bit. Based on what ive read, im getting good c02 economy with this setup. 2bps gets to 30ppm in a few hours, and im running a sponge filter.


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## aceranch (Dec 21, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> I dont think I would want to keep any fish that would bite my hand. That is, quite literally, "biting the hand that feeds."




He would bite my wrists while I was fixing his plant destruction actually, even worse! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Here is a video of the keyholes in their new tank. I have six keyholes, but a breeding pair formed and were moved to their own breeding tank.

Based on their size relative to the confirmed male, I believe these are all female.

There is some algae on glass and wood from before I added CO2 and planted the tank. I'm hoping it will clear up on its own. 

Need to finish upgrade the right side lights. The left side lights are brighter on their "medium" setting, than right side on full. Left side plants are bubbling more.

BTW, is it possible to embed videos?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmdQU4ZaA3M


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

ChrisX said:


> BTW, is it possible to embed videos?


Yes! Delete just the "s" after http.


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## StevieD (Jun 17, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> They've been in the tank about a month. After adding them to the 50, a pair formed and spawned. They have had two batches of eggs that they ate, so I moved them back to the 29 which is now their breeding tank. These videos are of the male and female. Male is about 3.5" total length.
> 
> They aren't pretty like rainbows but they have cichlid intelligence and are a good "large" fish that is compatible with small schooling fish.
> 
> ...


Very similar shape to the Blue Acara (Aequidens Pulcher), the first cichlid I successfully bred, and still one of my favorites. Good luck with the key holes


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

OK, I'm trying to figure out all the plants I have! MarylandGuppy made a list and he told me what they were when he passed them to me, but theres still a few I can't place.

Photos below with labels, please help if you can!

1. 
2
3
4
5. Rotala rotundifolia
6
7. Red Tiger Lotus
8. Pearlweed
9. Willow Hygro
10.
11. Pygmy Chain Sword ???
12. Small "Val" ???
13. ??? Thick root pieces with many smaller roots, a few dark leaves.
14. ??? Small pieces of "snowflake" leaves, short stems but roots
15. Luwigia repens narrow leaf
16. Golden Lyodelia
17. Alternanthera reineckii large leave variety ?
18. Brazillian Pennywort
19
20. Ambulia
21


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

1. potamogeton gayi
4. Hygrophila polysperma (not sunset var.)
6. pogostemon stellatus octopus
10. Hornwort
12. tanganyikan vallisneria (short growing variety)
13. ranunculus inundates
19. staurogyne bihar
21. Guppy grass variety unknown.

Golden lloydiella has the rounder leaf, oval leaf of similar plant is a water primrose variety unknown.

1,2,and 3 are kind a bunched together I can't tell.

Hope this helps some, are all plants well?

Did you attach Buce rhizomes to anything.
Bucephalandra theia blue was the variety.
They should sprout quickly and really like the higher PAR.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Maryland Guppy said:


> 1. potamogeton gayi
> 4. Hygrophila polysperma (not sunset var.)
> 6. pogostemon stellatus octopus
> 10. Hornwort
> ...


I was going to attach the rhizomes, but I pushed them into the substrate about an inch and they stayed. You gave me the bracket to put them on, I'm sure I did it wrong. They are supposed to grow along the surface, right?

I think the plants are doing well. Most of them are bubbling alot, especially on the left side where the lights are higher. Maybe this evening I can "upgrade" the right side lights with more leds.

The tank had some blue green algae (cyanobacteria?) before planting and CO2. Last night I cleaned up most of this. I'm hoping the rest will eventually die with CO2.

Also, tank is getting over the initial setup diatom bloom. I put some Phosguard in the filter to remove silicates ( and phosphates) last week and diatoms are pretty much gone. I think its safe for planted tanks, better double check it doesnt remove important fertz.

I'm using this EI dosing per GLA:

1/2 tsp KNO3
1/8 KH2PO4
1/8 K2SO4
1/8 Plantex

Macros MWF, micros TRS.

Macros are mixed in distilled water, so that 10ml (one capful) contains the above measures. Micros also mixed so one capful is a dose.

CO2 Gets dark green by 3 hours. By six hours it is middle green. If I dose less CO2, I will have to turn it on earlier. This is ok for now. Lights follow CO2 by two hours. Eight hours of lights.

How much light and CO2 are you running?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

In this video, you can see the amount of plant bubbling.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I attached the Buce to the lattice and its buried a tiny bit under the sand.

Thje hornwort greaw 4" in 1.5 days. Its at the top of the tank.

Lots of bubbling, some pearling! 

A little bit of algae on glass and wood. Cyanobacteria from before, mostly.

Drop checker is green. If algae continues... Decrease light? Increase light? Decrease/increase fertz? Or just wait?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

First (short) week growth report:

It's been four days since planting and CO2. DIy lights are unknown PAR.

1. potamogeton gayi - strong growth (a few inches)
2-3 ?? - Thin stem, skinny leaves. - strong growth, a few inches, new leaves at top are reddish.
4. Hygrophila polysperma (not sunset var.) - An inch of growth, new leaves reddish.
5. Rotala rotundifolia - Hasn't done much
6. pogostemon stellatus octopus - an inch
7. Red Tiger Lotus - Small clipping looks like it is rooting, there is a new shoot growing from base.
8. Pearlweed - Good growth. Some growing up, some growing sideways
9. Willow Hygro - I chopped main stem to shorten plant. Leaves have grown a couple inches.
10. Hornwort - Crazy growth 2-3" a day.
11. Pygmy Chain Sword - A little bit of melt, a bit concerned.
12. tanganyikan vallisneria (short growing variety) - an inch on larger bunch, looks ok
13. Bucephalandra theia blue - From just rhizome pioeces, looks like some activity 
14. ranunculus inundates - Pulled this because of algae, will plant some more
15. Luwigia repens narrow leaf - An inch, tighter leaves than stems I got. Moderate growth but looks like it is improving.
16. Golden Lyodelia / Water Primrose (2 sep plants) - mimimal gowrth looks ok
17. Alternanthera reineckii large leave variety ? - Small stems have oriented to light, looks promising.
18. Brazillian Pennywort - Random growth. One up, most sideways.
19. staurogyne bihar - Plant is recovering, leaves are facing up, looks better.
20. Ambulia - 2" growth tallest stem near light.
21 Guppy grass variety unknown. - A couple inches.


Mostly everything looks good. The rotala has me a little concerned. The pygmy chain sword is melting a bit but still looks ok. Pulled the small stem of Ranunculus because of some BGA, will be planting more, I really like the look of this.

Since removing the breeding pair of keyholes, the other four are fighting territorial battles every day. I think they are all female.

CO2 is 2.5 bps. 30 ppm after about four hours. The reactor takes a few hours to dissolve the CO2 after it is off. The SUNSUN 302b flow rate is pretty low, more flow would dissove it faster, but solution is to offset CO2 and Lighting another hour.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

It didn't happen unless there is pictures.:grin2:


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

That's a lot of growth in 4 days! Did your regulator have a bubble counter or did you add one? Which one is it if you know? You think set the CO2 to come on 2 hours or 1 hour before lights? How long before lights out should it go off you think? I decided to go with a Griggs type as well
And did you just DIY the 4 dkh solution?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> That's a lot of growth in 4 days! Did your regulator have a bubble counter or did you add one? Which one is it if you know? You think set the CO2 to come on 2 hours or 1 hour before lights? How long before lights out should it go off you think? I decided to go with a Griggs type as well
> And did you just DIY the 4 dkh solution?


I still dont have a bubble counter. What I did to set "bubbles" was disconnect the air tube before the check valve and insert it in a bottle of water.

So, these "bubbles" may not be equivalent to other bubbles. But I can periodically do this to check that the flow I set has not changed. 

However, I am basing total CO2 on pH of the water and only after running 4 hours or so does the CO2 approach 30ppm. And after that it does not go too much higher. 

CO2 from 8am to 4pm.. starts blue, when lights come on two hours later its bluish green, dark green by noon, middle green by 4, lights off two hours later.

When CO2 comes on and starts injecting, I hear a sloshing inside the Griggs reactor. It doesnt dissolve it immediately. The flow of the SunSun 302b is claimed 264gph, probably 200gph or less. Its not moving enough water to dissolve CO2 at a faster rate. After CO2 is off, I hear sloshing for a few hours. There is definitely a lag in the reactor, OTH I am definitely not wasting any CO2; it all gets dissolved.

The good news is that this will probably help avoid any Co2/pH spikes. However, I should be turning on CO2 3-4 hours in advance of lights in my setup. With a pump flowing more water, rate of Co2 dissolution probably faster.

Also... I figured out why my fish were acting badly. Nitrates were 80+. Wow, never been this high. Need to cut back on the EI dosing. Doing big water change now.

If my fish were neons instead of hardy cichids, I probably would have lost fish. My Keyholes are my planted tank astronauts!


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

ChrisX said:


> First (short) week growth report:
> 
> It's been four days since planting and CO2. DIy lights are unknown PAR.
> 
> ...


Yeah the thing about Rotala is I use it as my indicator plant for overall balance in my 20H. If it and the Ambulia are both busting out new growth, it means I've got the nutrients close to optimum. I notice it will occaisionally put out a side shot that will go for a while and then suddenly stunt. Not sure why this happens, as I had it do this in my tanks back in the early 90's.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

ChrisX said:


> I still dont have a bubble counter. What I did to set "bubbles" was disconnect the air tube before the check valve and insert it in a bottle of water.
> 
> So, these "bubbles" may not be equivalent to other bubbles. But I can periodically do this to check that the flow I set has not changed.
> 
> ...


I feel foolish that I hadn't thought of an easy solution like that. Great idea! I was stressing about how to initially set the 2 BPS I was thinking of starting out with in my 75. I really appreciate it. More than likely I will have the exact same issue as you. I'm using a 2217 or a 2215... I don't recall which, but there media and filter material in there and as it is now there is like zero pressure coming out of the spray bar so I just have the open outlet. I may make a small entension to get the spray bar lower in the tank and then just point it down like you did. 
What do you think about using a powerhead inside the tank to push water through the reactor? Ive got 2 AC70 powerheads and I could swap one out

How much has the pressure changed on the paintball tank in the 4 days? When I used it on my 75 I used a small diffuser so I was probably using a lot more CO2 than you and I constantly had leaks. I'm curious how long it lasts for you


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Paintball pressure hasn't changed any, but Ive only been running it 4 days. I don't know how long it will last, but I know I'm not wasting any in the tank. I am hoping to get six weeks from it. Will probably get another tank so I can fill two at once.

If paintball tank doesnt work more than four weeks, I will get a 20# co2 tank and a paintball fill station to fill the PB tank. 

Bubble counter was at top of my list, but then I realized if I wanted to see the bubble counter, I would have to open the cabinet and look... putting the tube in the bottled water is just about as easy. Since bubbles differ by system, they are meaningless measure, only good visual aid to see flow has not changed. 

If flow does mysteriously change, I am more likely to see drop checker change color.

BTW, my spraybar still has normal flow... I dont think the griggs is slowing it down. The 302b has a small pump to begin with.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Got some more plants from Maryland Guppy. This tank has turned into a real "Whitman's Sampler" planted tank!

Planted some Monte Carlo, Hydrocotyle tripartita 'Japan', and some more Ranunculous. 

The aquascaping has kinda gone out the window, but depending on whether any of these things grow, I can rescape. Little concerned about the Monte Carlo staying in place, root groups were a little short to hold in place so I had to poke portions of the plant into the substrate. 

I'm still floating some other plants, I think I may replace the hornwort with ambulia. I like the hornwort, but it keeps pulling up.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

When I did a Monte Carlo carpet I broke it into super small pieces and pushed then into the substrate so just a bit was above. It's hard to keep it level looking. I was unsuccessful in the 11.4, but it's more of a grow out. It looks super messy. I love HC Japan. I need to get some more. I did a HC Japan carpet a few years ago.
I just looked up ranunculus.. what a good looking plant! I'll need to get some of that.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

ChrisX said:


> The aquascaping has kinda gone out the window,
> 
> I think I may replace the hornwort with ambulia. I like the hornwort, but it keeps pulling up.


It's an experiment!
At least you have a diverse amount to experiment with!
I have a bunch more but practice a little first.

Hornwort, is an awesome plant growing in hi-tech, but it grows too fast.
It looks like an algae that has taken on a new form.
In a lo-tech environment in gets spindly and thin.
It will not root, weight it and tuck behind some structure.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Planted some Monte Carlo and Hydrocotyle tripartita 'Japan'. 

Tied the Buce to the root. New leaf pushing out on the Red Tiger Lotus.

Sadly, the fish have been under alot of stress, and the smallest one who is constantly being chased shows a white spot on her side. Probably ick. I started the Kordon Ick Attack treatment which I've used before. It is plant safe.

Since removing the breeding pair, the family cohesion has been destroyed. The smallest fish got along well with the male and was friends with the breeding female (before they paired). Since removing them to the breeding tank, the remaining fish chase her constantly.

This oddball fish has slightly different markings and finnage than the others, I suspect she was not reared with the others.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Built a black bottle filter to replace the sponge, freeing up some space. Completely free! I like to have bubbling because it adds surface agitation and makes a shimmer with the led lights. Also, its filled with ceramic noodles and a sponge to increase filtration.

This let me plant an Ambulia group. Tightened up the Pennywort. Moved the guppy grass to breeder tank. Found a better spot for the Staurogyne Bihar stem. Trimmed down and replanted some Lyodelia stems. 

I really need much more Ludwidia; its getting crowded out between the Hornwort and Ambulia. The ranunculous is not in a very good spot because it has very low contrast with the Hornwort, but there is nowhere else to put it!

I couldn't find either of my two Nerite Snails! They must be in heaven, but where did they go? AFAIK, the only places they can be is buried in the substrate or climbed out of the tank and fell behind the stand. Feel bad about this, but EI dosing got my Nitrates up to 80+... these are my first losses.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I hear that about them alot. I've got 2 in my 11.4 and didn't see them for several days... then when I just happened to turn the lights on there they both were. It's an open top rimless. That ludwigia will grow fast. If not maybe we could trade and I'll send you some of mine. I have ludwigia ovalis. Ive already trimmed it once and replanted the tops. Nice red under leaves. I've got some other stuff you might want too. Crypt Parva and crypt Lucens. I'll let you know when I've got a good amount if you still want some.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> I hear that about them alot. I've got 2 in my 11.4 and didn't see them for several days... then when I just happened to turn the lights on there they both were. It's an open top rimless. That ludwigia will grow fast. If not maybe we could trade and I'll send you some of mine. I have ludwigia ovalis. Ive already trimmed it once and replanted the tops. Nice red under leaves. I've got some other stuff you might want too. Crypt Parva and crypt Lucens. I'll let you know when I've got a good amount if you still want some.


I've lost them before because tank was so cluttered I couldn't be bothered to rip apart the whole tank. Days later they would appear. This time is different. I did an exhaustive search of a relatively empty tank and could not find one. My tank lid is pretty tight fitting though, only a small 2" hole where inlet and outlet pipes are located.

The other possibility is that when I threw out several pots of old Giant Hygro, they were attached to the pots. I checked carefully to see they weren't hitch hiking, and later checked behind the house where I dumped them... no shells.

Its a mystery, but I'm sure they are dead. They might be responsible for the Nitrate spike. Or in a few days I might start smelling them.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

ChrisX said:


> I've lost them before because tank was so cluttered I couldn't be bothered to rip apart the whole tank. Days later they would appear. This time is different. I did an exhaustive search of a relatively empty tank and could not find one. My tank lid is pretty tight fitting though, only a small 2" hole where inlet and outlet pipes are located.
> 
> The other possibility is that when I threw out several pots of old Giant Hygro, they were attached to the pots. I checked carefully to see they weren't hitch hiking, and later checked behind the house where I dumped them... no shells.
> 
> Its a mystery, but I'm sure they are dead. They might be responsible for the Nitrate spike. Or in a few days I might start smelling them.


That sucks man, but if that's your only loss in this whole setup you're killing it. My CO2 isn't even set up and I've killed like $60-$70 in fish already. I assume Amano's and Otos aren't an option given the size of your cichlids? You know after typing that message to you last night I got up and checked my 11.4. Both Nerites were up near the top near the filter output. I took the biggest one out as there isn't a ton of stuff in there for them to eat. I'm thinking of taking the other. I need to do a quick water change on that one. It's been several months ar least and that's probably why it's so messy. 
I use a submersible pump and there really isn't room in there for it so I'll probably have to siphon.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> That sucks man, but if that's your only loss in this whole setup you're killing it. My CO2 isn't even set up and I've killed like $60-$70 in fish already. I assume Amano's and Otos aren't an option given the size of your cichlids? You know after typing that message to you last night I got up and checked my 11.4. Both Nerites were up near the top near the filter output. I took the biggest one out as there isn't a ton of stuff in there for them to eat. I'm thinking of taking the other. I need to do a quick water change on that one. It's been several months ar least and that's probably why it's so messy.
> I use a submersible pump and there really isn't room in there for it so I'll probably have to siphon.


Its possible they buried themselves in the sand, trying to eat from soil below. There is zero algae up top, I need to feed them. I don't think they could easily get out of tank, and I've read sometimes they burrow.

I'd like Otos, but they are all wild caught and I'm against that practice. When and if the plants and tank conditions are stable, I will be adding a school of neons and another school maybe emperors, maybe diamonds, maybe serpae. Haven't decided. 

The four keyholes are getting along better today. I'm watching them closely for a potential ick outbreak. 

The breeding pair of keyholes are using my QT as a breeding tank. They are currently sitting eggs. Hopefully this time they see it through to hatching. Both other times after 1-2 days they ate the eggs and stopped protecting their breeding site. This is day two of them protecting the site, so if they are still busy tomorrow they will have made it further than before.

I could set up a 10g as QT for tetras, but it needs a heater and light.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I got some algae wafers and dropped them in the back of the tank. Thats the best I can do for the snails if they are buried.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Update on the breeding Keyholes: They have been colored up and guarding their pot for past three days. They trade responsibilities about every 10-15 minutes. One will leave to protect the "perimeter" while the other guards and fans the eggs...

The problem is.. I didn't actually think they would go through with it this time. (The other two times in the large tank, they ate their eggs after 1-2 days and stopped guarding.) I didn't get a chance to set it up in a good way for breeding. The flower pot they chose is in the corner and facing away... so I can't see their eggs or fry. Also, the tank is overrun with cyanobacteria. I don't want to vaccum the tank or they will eat the eggs. Very frustrating. Once they hatch, maybe I can clean up the area. But I know I should probably abandon this batch, set up the tank for breeding (clean!) and let them try again in two more weeks.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Do you have another tank to transfer the fry to? Or a breeding net? They always breed when we are least prepared. My GBR's did that. I chose to "abandon" that batch rather than gather the eggs. Then the male killed the female a couple weeks later and died a few weeks after that.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> Do you have another tank to transfer the fry to? Or a breeding net? They always breed when we are least prepared. My GBR's did that. I chose to "abandon" that batch rather than gather the eggs. Then the male killed the female a couple weeks later and died a few weeks after that.


Thats a pretty sad story. Glad I wasn't lured by the pretty colors of the Rams. I prefer the extra size and hardiness of the keyholes.

My pair still have that "lovin' feelin" and try about every two weeks. They are in their old 29g together, I have a 10g I could setup, but apparently Keyholes will parent their fry until they are pretty big.

They did abandon this batch but they got farther this time. I may have spooked them when I tried to clean some of the tank. Its much cleaner and set up better for the next time they try. Worst case scenario, I remove the unhatched eggs to the 10g and raise them in there.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

WEEK 1 Plant Update (This is first full week)
-------------------------

1. potamogeton gayi - Gangbusters. This stuff is at top of tank, looks thicker.

2-3 ?? - Thin stem, skinny leaves. - One bunch in back is getting crowded out by plants in front. Still growing well but I need to clean this up.

4. Hygrophila polysperma (not sunset var.) - Reached top of tank and then some. Growing across surface, pinkish leaves, lots of new side sprouts. Need to top and replant.

5. Rotala rotundifolia - One of the good stems is growing reddish, full sized leaves, and is growing horizontal a few inches from surface. A couple other stems are doing ok. Some others had smallish/green growth from before and haven't done much. It will take a long time to keep replanting the good stem and removing the ugly ones. I think I should just start with a full group of red stems instead of working to recover these.

6. pogostemon stellatus octopus - Really strong growth, 4", almost at top, looks stronger.

7. Red Tiger Lotus - Started with only three olive leaves, there are two new red leaves. Looks like it has rooted. This was just a wisp of a tiny bunch, it might take off. Looking forward to this.

8. Pearlweed - More than doubled in height. Not growing sidesways as I hoped. This certainly is a weed, but with the growth rate I can trim it to look how I want. Its attractive but has been hit by BGA.

9. Willow Hygro - This was started from a thick established stem without roots. I'm not sure I planted it right, but there is some new green growth and it looks healthier. I removed some crusty old leaves from before I had it.

10. Hornwort - Grows 6" a week. Easily. I used some of these trimmings in the breeding tank. I want to keep this so I have a source of floating plants for the breeder.

11. Pygmy Chain Sword - A little bit of melt, a bit concerned. Still hasnt done much.

12. tanganyikan vallisneria (short growing variety) - Looks ok. The main bunch may already be at full height 6". Not sure what it will do frome here.

13. Bucephalandra theia blue - From just rhizome pieces, looks like some activity. There are a few new green leaves. Its not growing very fast at all, time will tell if the rhizome pieces will eventually grow into plants.


14. ranunculus inundates - Planted some more of this, looks ok.

15. Luwigia repens narrow leaf - One of the good stems has reached top of tank and is growing intermediate leaves from every node. Should be quite thick next week. There aren't enough good stems to make a full bunch of this. May get some more, or keep replanting tops until there is enough.

16a. Golden Lyodelia = About an inch of growth. It looks great, hopefully it will root and I can start replanting tops.

16b. Water Primrose - Is this Ludwigia Broad leaf? I had some larger stems that were growing red in my last tank, these are light green. I wonder if they will darken as they mature. Growing a couple inches a week. Trimmed and replanted some tops.

17. Alternanthera reineckii large leave variety ? - This is looking real good. Its a bit taller and some new leaves pushing from top.

18. Brazillian Pennywort - I bunched these tighter. Some height growth 1", but intermediate leaves are starting to push out. Next week it will look much thicker.

19. staurogyne bihar - This is looking really good, at top of tank. I got a thick branch/stem, that I planted in an awkward spot. I may have to keep topping low and replanting so it doesnt grow across top.


20. Ambulia - Tallest stem reached top. Shorter stems looking good 1". I really like the look of this. Its

21 Guppy grass variety unknown. - Moved to breeder tank.

22. Monte Carlo - Just today I noticed a good number of new light green leaves. Its alive but is hit with BGA.

23. Hydrocotyle tripartita 'Japan' - Not much, maybe still rooting.

24. Water sprite - I planted this at the back of the ranunculous group thinking it was same stuff, but its grown several inches in a few days. Need to figure out what to do... I've heard there are ways to carpet it.. Or I could grow this small piece out to replace the weak rotala group.


Only thing that isn't growing well or showing promise is the Pygmy Chain sword. Bucephilandra is showing some activity but it might fizzle out. Monte Carlo is fighting BGA but there are new leaves. Just dosed with Chemiclean and will be lights out this weekend.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Fish update:

EI dosing has not been good for the tank! Using standard EI dosing first week, I lost my two Nerite snails (lost.. but I think they are dead). Nitrates were 80+ according to API test kit.

I have also noticed by Keyhole cichlids with faster respiration and they are generally more cranky/agressive and not as interested in flake food. Something is not right with them.

I did a full water test today and Nitrates are at 40ppm. I think this is way too high for cichlids. 

Originally I thought that the faster respiration was from the CO2, so I added another bubbler and I find that even with pearling/bubbling plants, the fish still display symptoms.

I must endeavor to keep nitrates below 20ppm. They were below 5ppm most of their lives so far. But I need to figure out how this will impact plants.

Doing large water change now to see if it helps the fishies.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

How much KNO3 are you thinking you'll need to hit your 20ppm goal? Are you going to get it up to 20ppm and try to keep it there or are you going have 20ppm as the max and do a water change when you got that point? 
I need to test mine and get a number. I'm at probably 60.-70% of EI now with 60% weekly water changes. 
Do you dose iron?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> How much KNO3 are you thinking you'll need to hit your 20ppm goal? Are you going to get it up to 20ppm and try to keep it there or are you going have 20ppm as the max and do a water change when you got that point?
> I need to test mine and get a number. I'm at probably 60.-70% of EI now with 60% weekly water changes.
> Do you dose iron?


When I got the dry ferts, I mixed so I have two bottles, macros and micros (plantex) where 10ml is a full dose.

First week I did full EI dosing. This past week I did half EI dosing and Nitrates still got to 40ppm and it was only Tuesday.

I just did a 50% wc, Nitrates at 20ppm and at end of week I will check again to see if it changed (no more macro dosing). IDK i fish are creating more nitrates than plants consume. IDK what my end strategy will be, but I think 20ppm nitrates are an absolute maxium, according to EI, nitrates need to be in 5-20 range for plant health.

Which makes me wonder, what kind of monster plant growth, mega lighting, and CO2 is needed to dose full EI !?!???

I will probably end up doing a half dose macros after WC and check through week to make sure Nitrates are not falling. 

My keyholes are doing better at 20ppm Nitrates, respiration has slowed. EI is plant safe, but it has potential to hurt fish.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

ChrisX said:


> When I got the dry ferts, I mixed so I have two bottles, macros and micros (plantex) where 10ml is a full dose.
> 
> First week I did full EI dosing. This past week I did half EI dosing and Nitrates still got to 40ppm and it was only Tuesday.
> 
> ...


My understanding is EI is basically a maximum for that size tank packed with fast growing stems... like Burr740 or Greggz... and even then you're pushing it by the end of the week. I will tell you that the ludwigia ovalis is out of control now... I would give you a handful of stem that I tore out and trimmed yesterday just to make room for the windolev. I'm going to take all the hardscape out of the 11.4 so I'm not throwing it away. I'll probably stay at about 50-70% since alot of my plant mass will be bolbitus and ferns and slower growing stuff. At least until the Crypt Parva and lobelia cardinalis finish carpeting. 
How about a new FTS??


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I did a 50% water change, brought Nitrates to 20. Then decided to do another, now Nitrates below 10. Fish are much happier, respiration has slowed. Less aggression. Regarding fertilizers. . .

EI dosing guidelines from GLA:









These quantities are roughly twice what I get when I use rotalabutterfly calculator. Perhaps the GLA amounts are total per week, not per dose? Or there are different interpretations of EI....

In any event, I mixed a macro solution per GLA instructions. Which is twice the rotalabutterfly calculator, so I have decided to dose 1/4 of my solution, or half EI doses. Should keep Nitrates below 20. Fish were not completely happy at 20ppm, so I should hope to keep it below 10ppm with careful dosing. EI is not really compatible with fish health. Basically they tell you to blast the water with fertilizers and dont have to measure...

There is almost no extra room in my tank.

What is an FTS?


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

ChrisX said:


> I did a 50% water change, brought Nitrates to 20. Then decided to do another, now Nitrates below 10. Fish are much happier, respiration has slowed. Less aggression. Regarding fertilizers. . .
> 
> EI dosing guidelines from GLA:
> 
> ...


Full tank shot. So you were dosing more than the amounts listed above? Were you dosing daily? I dose 60-70% of what is listed for a 75. 3 days of macro's and 2 days of micro's then nothing for a day or two then a water change and macros... etc..
I guess I need to test my nitrates and see where I am. I spend all day on the phone or with Lawyers. When I'm home I just want to look into the tank not do tests and calculations


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> Full tank shot. So you were dosing more than the amounts listed above? Were you dosing daily? I dose 60-70% of what is listed for a 75. 3 days of macro's and 2 days of micro's then nothing for a day or two then a water change and macros... etc..
> I guess I need to test my nitrates and see where I am. I spend all day on the phone or with Lawyers. When I'm home I just want to look into the tank not do tests and calculations


I was dosing per the GLA chart, but for a 50g tank, its actually twice what is recommended by the rotalabutterfly calculator.

Now I am doing half of what is recommended by the calculator (which is 1/4 what I was dosing). The problem is that the GLA chart is inaccurate AND I was doing full-blast EI dosing from the start.

Bump:


Almost everything is doing great. The rotala is growing red and horizontal close to the light, but unfortunately down lower it is unhealthy. Leads me to believe they need more light. The left side of the tank has less light than the right; I haven't increased the leds on that side yet.

I acidentally planted some water sprite within the ranuncluous, it is taking off! Need to move that soon, although the ranunculous also looks healthy.

The AR is "purple" variety and growth looks healthy and is taking off.

Braziliian Pennywort created a nice ladder on the right side that the keyholes use as the "door" to their alcove behind it.

Hornwort is not rooting and I have been taking it out to make room for the new Ludwigia Narrow leaf tops I am replanting. Hornwort has a brownish cast, probably alot less light and nutrients in my tank, especially since cutting back on EI.

The Golden Lyodelia and Water Primrose are doing great.

All the stems on the left growing verrry strong. Need to thin out..

The MC is still rooting but there are some new leaves on each clump. When will it start to carpet? It has to root through an inch of sand... maybe I should have thinned out the sand in that area before planting.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

more pics


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

WEEK 2 UPDATE

THE GOOD
* Most things growing well.
* Pygmy chain sword sent out runner and new plant is starting.
* AR "Purple" seems to grow about an inch a week. Wish I had put it back a little farther as it grows directly to the light. (It is angled back some.)
* Hygro Augustofolio looks great. Its grown to the top of the tank, but gives me new leaves without outgrowing the tank. Ocassionally remove old leaves.
* Monte Carlo just starting to send out runners. Less leaves than when received, but its growing new leaves and starting to spread.
* Buce "Blue" slow and steady, some new small leaves. Maybe one day it will look good.
*Brazillian pennywort. Thickening, lots of mid stem roots, new leaves.
* Ludwigia "Broad Leaf". Good growth reddish at top, it just starting to sort itself and have a better look. It has been growing many intermediate side shoots. slowly topping and replanting to increase this group.
* Left side stems (thin stems, all). Almost everything on the left side has had great growth, no algae.
* Water Sprite, might turn out to be good midground group.


THE "OK"
* Red Tiger Lotus. About 2 new leaves a week. Plant is not larger, but it is going slow and steady.
* staurogyne bihar- I really like this plant. It was a full size stem and I'm not sure its rooted, but there are new water column roots and some new leaves. Some of the older leaves directly under the light are getting GHA... Its just sitting at the top of the tank. Not sure how to top this without destroying the look.
* Mini Vals- Some melt, some small new leaves.

THE BAD
* Rotala - New growth on two stems is red, but most of the stems look bad down below. I will top and replant, but I dont have enough for a full group. Im not sure of initial quality and I think they need more light.
* Hornwort - This doesnt root and is pulling up all the time. I need to find something else to put in its place. Might just use the guppy grass.


MAINTENANCE

CO2 is on 2.5 bps which according to pH test, brings me to around 30bps within 2-3 hours. The ebay regulator still steady bps and pressure. I am hoping for 6 weeks with Griggs reactor, 8 hours a day.

After several large water changes, got nitrates under control. First week because of GLA chart inaccuracy, I was doing nearly twice Ei dosing compared to rotala butterfly calc. Lost my nerite snails.. Now I'm doing close to full EI dosing, and nitrates < 15 ppm. Fish seem happier. Testing nitrites frequently to find balance.

Because of GHA on some stems on right side of tank, I have moved the higher output light to the left, thus lowering the light on the right. I feel that the PAR at top of tank is really high, at the substrate probably modest. 

Spot treating GHA with H2O2. It may work will see..

All fert dosing is per EI ratios. I am setting amount based on Nitrates. Hopefully other macros are not deficient.

Chemiclean treatment eliminated BGA.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

It looks like everything is growing in pretty well. MC has been hit or miss with me based on the time I take to plant it. I had my best luck breaking it into tiny little plantlets... like 2 or 3 leaves and buying about 80% of it in the substrate. It took a little bit to get going, but then it started springing up out of the substrate and carpeted the entire tank in 4 weeks with no CO2 just glut. I wish I had those pics still. This most recent time I but much larger mounds in the substrate and it has grown much slower and lumpier. It doesn't look really good. If I use it in the rescape Ill spend the time to shred it into the tiny plantlets again.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Quick update:

Finding the balance for fish and plants is not easy!

After losing the snails, I realized I was overdosing EI, so I cut back to reduced doses. . .

Then I treated for Cyanobacteria with Chemiclean, angled the spray bar up for more surface agitation and added a big airstone....

BGA went away, but then I noticed one of my keyholes was distressed. Red inflamation at the base of her fins, although still eating. (suspected Septicemia.) This fish was being relentlessly chased by another pair that has formed.. Turns out that nitrates were still high even on a reduced EI schedule and the added stress of being chased lowered this fish's resistance.. I thought 40ppm nitrates was upper safe limit, when in fact 10-15ppm is probably the upper limit for these fish, or any fish for that matter. . .

I set up a 10g hospital tank for the distressed keyhole, used Tetra Lifeguard, and after 3 days the red marks on fins have disapeared. Fish is back to normal and seems relatively content, even in the 10g hospital with some flowerpots and floating hornwort. I'm glad I was paying attention..

But while treating the keyhole in the hospital tank, I endeavored to make the tank conditions more hospitable for fish. I reduced EI dosing further, and lowered CO2 to 2bps (from 3)... Also did a big trim and replant...

Over the past 3-4 days, while BGA was eliminated, there was an uptick in diatoms and some GHA...

Checked parameters, and found that with slightly lowered CO2, I was not reaching my 30ppm target (ph 7 at lights on), and also reduced EI dosing, Nitrates were now around 5ppm or less on Wednesday .. . . Low ferts, low CO2, no stability explains it...

So I am now back to normal EI dose for a 40g tank... bumped CO2 back to 3bps.. angled spray bar back down.. and ordered some wavemakers to increase flow in the tank...

Things are not out of hand.. everything is still growing but ive had to do manual cleaning plants with toothbrush daily...

I did remove the rotala group because it didnt look so hot.. .but surprisingly it had developed a very extensive root network...

The keyhole cichlids have presented some challenges. They are great fish, originally got along like a little family, but once a pair formed (and another pair) they have gotten territorial, adding stress to the tank.

I think the trick with Keyholes is to keep them in a more densely populated community so they are not in the mood for breeding and there are some distractions.... 

Hopefully soon the tank will be stabilized and I can try adding some tetra schools to diffuse agression.

Bump: Hospital tank...


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

What is the plant along the right side of the tank? I need some of that for my lower 75. I'm quickly getting sick of stems and dropping the lower leaves... I only seem to be getting a little algae on the bolbitus that I wipe off with my fingers once a week. Are you going to add nerites or any other cleanup??
Right now I've got 4 Nerites, 1 Oto (had no luck finding more) and I added 3 Amano's today. Saw some little keyholes at the LFS and they were really cool... I was tempted to pick them up, but I've got to get these other fish out of the 75 and into the 150 before I start adding my real stock.
Are you dosing any iron yet?


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

The Dude1 said:


> What is the plant along the right side of the tank? I need some of that for my lower 75. I'm quickly getting sick of stems and dropping the lower leaves... I only seem to be getting a little algae on the bolbitus that I wipe off with my fingers once a week. Are you going to add nerites or any other cleanup??
> Right now I've got 4 Nerites, 1 Oto (had no luck finding more) and I added 3 Amano's today. Saw some little keyholes at the LFS and they were really cool... I was tempted to pick them up, but I've got to get these other fish out of the 75 and into the 150 before I start adding my real stock.
> Are you dosing any iron yet?




I believe that's Brazilian pennywort. Hydrocotyle leucocephala


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> What is the plant along the right side of the tank? I need some of that for my lower 75. I'm quickly getting sick of stems and dropping the lower leaves... I only seem to be getting a little algae on the bolbitus that I wipe off with my fingers once a week. Are you going to add nerites or any other cleanup??
> Right now I've got 4 Nerites, 1 Oto (had no luck finding more) and I added 3 Amano's today. Saw some little keyholes at the LFS and they were really cool... I was tempted to pick them up, but I've got to get these other fish out of the 75 and into the 150 before I start adding my real stock.
> Are you dosing any iron yet?


No iron besides what is in soil and plantex. My keyhole breeding pair have the longest fin extensions ive seen. Idk if its because selective breeding or because there arent any fin nippers in tank.

No cleanup crew. Nerites cant clear plants, only glass. Keyholes will eat shrimp..they keep pond snail pop in check..lots of shells in sand minus snails... if im doing my job, a group of otos wpuld run out of algae to eat..pleco will destroy plant leaves..no reason for cleanup.


http://youtu.be/XGl_2beftu4


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

First new fish in six months. Neon school in a QT.






The keyholes in the display tank have been getting more territorial, so I've decided to see what affect adding a dither fish will have. If the dither fish don't help calm the tank, I will have to rehome some Keyholes. I dont think the Neons will fit in the mouths of the Keyholes and they supposedly don't predate on smaller fish.

I decided on Neons over cardinals for a few reasons. Foremost is that most Neons are tank raised and typically accepting of higher pH values (so I've read). These were from the big chain $1/fish sale. The store is very close to my house and uses the same water source (pH 8.0), so less liklihood of pH shock. Also, neons typically like lower temps than Cardinals, and my tank is set at 75*. (As an aside, the guy at store said their pH was 7.0, but when I tested, it was deep blue, somewhere above 7.6.. )

The drawback of Neons is that they don't get as big as Cardinals. But as most of them are wild caught, I figured the Neons have a better chance in alkaline (but soft) water. Of course, a school of cardinals would cost much more.

There are currently 26 of an initial 32; there have been a few deaths. The other fish show good color and are eating well, however they are on the small side and still have alot of growing to do.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I think Keyholes are awesome, but after following your log I think I'll do something else. I'm decoding between a school of Neons and Cardinals as well. The whole neon tetra disease scare has me looking to cardinals though... I've never had luck with Neons. I'll be interested to see how they work for you. I was hoping to get some fry from the Emporers, but no such luck. I have heard Neons and Cardinals are much harder. I've got a little while before the Africans reach a comfortable size though. $1 a piece is pretty tempting though!!


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> I think Keyholes are awesome, but after following your log I think I'll do something else. I'm decoding between a school of Neons and Cardinals as well. The whole neon tetra disease scare has me looking to cardinals though... I've never had luck with Neons. I'll be interested to see how they work for you. I was hoping to get some fry from the Emporers, but no such luck. I have heard Neons and Cardinals are much harder. I've got a little while before the Africans reach a comfortable size though. $1 a piece is pretty tempting though!!



You already have some other big fish, no need for keyholes. They are great when they shoal as a family, but once they pair off they get territorial, which means rehoming or some other strategy. However, the breeding pair are quite civil to each other, unlike some other cichlid species.

I think I'm going to get another ten Neons.

Given that I'm new to the hobby / high tech, it would be too big a risk and expense to put a large school of cardinals in. I may find that the keyholes predate on smaller fish, or that the pH swings from CO2 cause a mass die off. 

This video pretty much sums up how I feel about neons vs cardinals.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

WEEK 3 UPDATE

*CO2 tank and regulator still have constant output. Bumped it up to 3 bps. Pretty good for < $40.

*Put Phosguard back into filter, seems to have curbed diatom growth. I'm not sure if this is removing phosphorus fertz (it is supposed to remove phosphates and silicates). Need to find out if phosphorus and phosphates are the same thing. Anyway, unless I see plant deficiencies, I suppose I can keep this in to keep diatoms in check. I believe my tap water has silicates; diatoms were a problem in my old tank, even at month six.

*Algae is generally in check. Sometimes see some GHA on old leaves that I remove.

* Went back to Petshmo and bought every one of their $1 Neons. I now have a school around 40 in QT. They receive livestock on Wednesdays, so the farther out from Wednesday probably means weaker stock has already passed. I'm hoping this last batch does not have many losses. I saw how the school looked in the 10G QT and realized I would need more for a good school in the 50g.

*Everything is growing well:

Staurogyne Bihar, trimmed top five inches a week ago, is already back at top of tank, although leaves are still smallish, not large and serrated.

Bump: Pygmy Chain swords are chaining. Already sent out a couple runners.

Bump: I put the higher output light back on the left side. Monte carlo is carpeting a bit faster. Pearlweed has been sending side runners, and the HC Japan is finally starting to spread on the left where it had a good foothold. Also, the Tanganiykan Val, has created a new group that is growing within the MC. The pygmy chain sends runners over the substrate, the val below.

Slow activity with the Buce, but each week there is slightly more green.

Bump: Red Tiger louts has taken off. Top stem is 7" long with a 3" leaf. The Hygro polysperma grows like clockwork. This is after a big trim.. I need to rescape this side of the tank.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

AR Purple is doing pretty well, but it's slowed down since being under the lower output light bar this past week. Need to finish upgrading the lightbars.

Ranunculous doing very well, just trimmed 2" from it.

Need to rescape this whole side.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

In order to reduce agression between keyholes, I've decided to add some dither fish. The plan at the beginning was to get a school of neons. Because of the keyhole agression, my attention has been diverted back to fish. If the dither fish don't help, I'll have to rehome some keyholes. 






Of an original 50, about 40 have survived. The ones that made it are eating really well; the ones that didn't I suspect were shocked by the pH change at the pet store and were already under stress. They were only in the store for two days before I bought them. Its common advice to not buy so soon after arrival, but I suspected they would not still be in stock if I waited.

There is some good news.. the Neons dumped a ton of fertile eggs last night! They were a bunch of fish doing the mating dance yesterday. I've separated as many as I could into a clear bottle inside the tank and will get a breeding net in case they hatch. Most of the eggs are white, but they were mixed with alot of brown (infertile) eggs.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I dont know whether the white or brown eggs are the fertile ones. Either way, I have hundreds of each. There are also a ton still in the QT.

Ordered BBS eggs from amazon. If they hatch before I have live food ready, I suppose I will use egg yolks.


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## StevieD (Jun 17, 2017)

Looks like you are definitely doing something right. I never got neons to do anything.

Bump: Looks like you are definitely doing something right. I never got neons to do anything.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

10g tank with DIY bubble filter....

ph 8.0.. apparently doesnt matter.... 

KH/GH 5 ea... Alkaline Buffer + Equilibrium...

75*...

Big school makes them comfortable...

Floating Hornwort..

Feed them alot, flake and daily frozen bloodworms (was trying to grow them before adding to MT)...

50% WC every other day. (because im feeding them so much)

Luck x1000.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

This 24oz tank seems to have lasted exactly a month. I don't know if I can get any more out of it. Over the past four days, the tank pressure needle has gone from mid/upper yellow to low yellow.

I've been running 3bps, 8 hours a day for past month. But I wasted a bunch of CO2 when I set it up originally. 

Also, I have a large air pump blasting through an airstone to aerate the water which is probably gassing off CO2. However, I have noticed generally elevated fish respiration in the tank, so I don't think it has much oxygen. Ive ordered a solenoid to automate the airstone, but I suspect the tank is generally low in oxygen.

I'm not sure, but my thinking is that once the tank pressure gets below the working pressure, then the output will be diminished. Anyone have some advice on how much more time it has? 1 day? 2 Weeks?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

4 week fts.

When i set up the neon qt, i borrowed the second filter and the purigen. Looks like i have a bacterial bloom. Plants are all really healthy. Took this pic b4 trim n wc.

I have a divider up to keep this pair from terrorizing the other two. Also added some flat stones so they can do their business.

Need moar red plants! Need better lights!


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Everything is growing extremely well.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Refilled CO2....

The 24oz paintball tank lasts a little over a month at 3 (large) BPS for 8 hours a day. I thought my KH was 4-5 but actually EI dosing made it shoot up to 7-8, so I was probably around 45+ ppm instead of target 30. This is probably why the water was hazy in the morning when lights came on.


I'm going to dial it back to 1.5- 2 bps (20ppm) and shoot for at least 6-8 weeks.

Edit: EI dosing or perhaps the MGOC substrate made KH rise to 8. That means at pH 6.6 I was at 59ppm CO2 instead of 30ppm. Fish respiration was quickened but they weren't gasping at the surface.


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## finfan (Jun 16, 2008)

wow


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I'm new at this...


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I _so_ wish I had a 75g tank!

I have a ton of stem plants, and its set up in a pseudo-dutch style arrangement, but the tank is not deep enough to do a dutch style. I can only really have two layers of plants, background/midground or background foreground.

I want to try creating more territories. The way it is now, is that there is really only one territory in the middle, and hiding spaces on the sides. I think if the ends were more open and the middle was more developed (like an island), there would be two territories, left and right.

Now its like this | \---/ |

I want it to be more like | /---\ |

Any suggestions? Does anyone have pics of a 55 that is built up more like an island in the middle?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

New light design...


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

After testing color ratios last night, this is the design I'm going to build.

Things that I've discovered:

* With these cheap leds, the best ratio of whites is 2:1 cc/ww.
* The build need twice as many (or more) Deep Reds as Cyan and Royal Blue. 2:1(.75):1(.75)
* The color leds dont add much "noticable" color, but in the proper ratios make the tank look "whiter" (higher CRI). 
* Spotlighting with the fixture this close to the water is a concern. I believe having colors in the same center row will minimize colors "stepping out" in the foreground. Later revision will use some method of diffusion.
* 22" of aluminum angle bar (1x1x1/8"), with encosed fan cooling (evacuation), will support 15+ 3W leds. Testing with 15x whites per bar, temp does not go above 110*F.
*These CW leds are so cold, I may resort to hard wiring some additional reds into the main channel.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Tank has gotten progressively cloudier over the past few weeks. At first it wasnt too noticable, but last week there was a period of no CO2 and low/no light as I worked on the DIY light bars. I also lowered CO2 from 30+ to around 20ppm for ish health.

Majority of plants have continued strong growth without algae, but the MC is sporting some GHA. 

At first I thought this was a BB, but parameters are perfect. First line of attack was recharge Purigen, use 50 micron felt, and Accu Clear. None of that did anything.

As a result I pulled the trigger on a UV sterilize and got one of the internal SunSun ones for around $30. Water is not exactly green, its more yellowish, but Ive read AB isn't always bright green.

I hesitated so long because I didn't want a big black box in my tank; neither did I want an inline sterilizer further reducing my flow. The *right* solution would have been to spend $20 more last year and get a 304-B w/ UV. . . . Analysys paralysis caught hold and only once the water got pretty bad was I motivated to act. I'll just have to "hide" this thing. As a plus, it does have adjustable water flow, up to around 250gph and my tank can always use more circulation.

I've got a before pic I will post after the water has cleared up. Fingers crossed.


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## FischAutoTechGarten (Jul 11, 2003)

beautiful keyhole cichlids. such an underappreciated fish. glad you included them.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

ChrisX said:


> Tank has gotten progressively cloudier over the past few weeks. At first it wasnt too noticable, but last week there was a period of no CO2 and low/no light as I worked on the DIY light bars. I also lowered CO2 from 30+ to around 20ppm for ish health.
> 
> Majority of plants have continued strong growth without algae, but the MC is sporting some GHA.
> 
> ...


That makes me feel better. I bought the 304 to use for the reactor for the lower 75. I'm struggling with BGA in that tank bad. Hopefully it helps. Have you considered doing some metricide until you get it under control? I've noticed turning up the C02 as plant mass increases helps with algae considerably. Have you shortened your photoperiod?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> That makes me feel better. I bought the 304 to use for the reactor for the lower 75. I'm struggling with BGA in that tank bad. Hopefully it helps. Have you considered doing some metricide until you get it under control? I've noticed turning up the C02 as plant mass increases helps with algae considerably. Have you shortened your photoperiod?


I lowered the CO2 to 2bps from 3 because fish were breathing faster and no ammount of extra bubbling or surface agitation would slow their respiration. When I started out, the focus was on plants. Its easy to grow plants without fish, just max CO2.

Based on pH, it should now be 20ppm which is in the acceptable range according to many sources.

Yesterday I raised CO2 back to 30ppm and fish were breathing fast again so I lowered it again. IDK what exactly is going on, many people use 30ppm. The sweet spot might be compromised by the bloom which could be stealing O2, or CO2 is much higher than ph/kh and drop checker indicate.

Plants still growing well, but 24 hours of UV, no difference. I'll give it a week. I'm feeling really agitated about this. Doing everything right, applying all known remedies. If the UV filter doesn't work, I have no ***** idea what is going on.

If its not water column algae, then its a bacterial bloom... but water parameters are perfect and the canister should have adjusted by now.

I killed diatoms and BGA like a boss, this hazy water could be my downfall.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Are the fish near the surface or do you just see them breathing a little heavier? I'm relatively sure the higher C02 is what killed my Furcata Rainbows. I noticed them near the surface sometimes and having a little trouble breathing... I figured since the other fish were fine that they would acclimate... nope... all of them died with the exception of one female. It will clear up. Purigen (if you have it), metricide, and that UV sterilizer will clear up whatever it is for sure or just wait it out. Tank looks pretty awesome and I bet if you kept your eyes open you could score a 75 on Craigslist for cheap. I had a lady at Petsmart offer me 2 *nearly new* 55 gallons a couple weeks ago. Everything would swap right over!


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Fish are not near surface, just breathing like they exerted themselves. Correlated to higher co2. Lots of surface movement and bubbles. Someone mentioned ratio of co2 n o2 changes fish respiration. With more oxygen i could go higher co2. Plants are a curtain of bubble near end of day. If a fish hits a plant, a huge cloud rises. 


If i got a 75, id have to redo the lights. At very least, i can get good deal black friday. 

Oth, water changes with the 50 are manageable. Tank is in bment and theres no hot water or sink. I fill from hose behind house supplemented with hot tap bucket in winter. In summer, ground water is exactly 75*, same as tanks.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The aquarium water is starting to clear up (I think), but it has made me realize that this tank is made with low quality (impure) glass. There always seems to be a bluish-green tint to the display. Not bad for $80 with full hoods, but its fighting my efforts to get a good display in the tank. When I hold my DIY leds over the 29g tank (Marineland I believe) they look better.

Whats weird is that when the tank is empty, you can see through without any tinting, but when its filled the tint is more obvious.

On the lookout for a good deal on a 75g tank. I wonder if someone knows if there are any affordable brands with good glass, or do you need to buy an ADA or acrylic?

The edges of my tank look like this:


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

SunSun JP-21 UV sterilizer is clearing the water. I originally expected it would take 24-48 hours to be crystal clear, but it's more like it is clearing 20% of the cloudiness each day. 

Unexpected bounus is the extra aeration and adjustable flow.

Tank is due for a rescape soon.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

My original breeding pair of keyholes in the 29g laid eggs five or six times, but by day 3 they had eaten all of them. The male eventually got tired of this arrangement (he rejected the female), so I put them back in the main tank.

The same male and another female bonded and are sitting eggs. The other breeding pair that spawned once in the main tank, are in the 29g to see if they have another go. 

In this pic, about 5% of the eggs are infertile (white) the other ones are clear/tan colored and clustered so tight its hard to make out the individual eggs.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Day 3, eggs are starting to hatch! There are a few early stage wigglers amongst unhatched eggs.

After the first night, half of the eggs had become infertile, possibly because of changing pH from the CO2.

On day 2, I lowered CO2 from 2.5bps 8 hours a day, to 1 bps constant to keep pH around 7.0. This afternoon, wigglers! My guess is that prior spawns didn't work because water in the breeding tank is 8.1pH. It never occured to me to use the CO2 to keep the water neutral.

Unfortunately there only look to be about 30 viable eggs left and maybe 5 wigglers. Hopefully the majority of them make it to fry stage, then I will have to decide if I put them in a breeder box or let the parents raise them. There are no other inhabitants on their side of the tank.

I think once they are free swimming I will put them in the breeder box, then when they are larger move them to a grow out tank.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Keyholes are protecting their wigglers. If they make it til tomorrow, i might see some free swimming fry. I have bbs ready and another batch is cooking.

Using the c02 on 1bps 24 hrs a day to stabilize ph at 6.8 for the fry. Plant growth still explosive.

Im running uv w bubbler 24/7 and i think extra o2 may be helping plants grow. It needs a trim, but im going to wait til fry are eating.

All the plants doing great except mc. It had a setback the week there was no co2. The buce is coming along slowly..looking better.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Congrats on the wigglers! Perhaps it's the extra flow that is helping. It's not the O2 at least not directly.


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## Brian Rodgers (Oct 15, 2016)

Aw babies, how cool is this?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Third day, parents stopped guarding and wigglers were gone! At least the Neons in QT got a ton of BBS.

Watching a school of 40 neons hunt BBS is mesmerizing.

Next time when they color up to breed, I will overfeed and keep the CO2 on 24/7 before they spawn.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

ChrisX said:


> Third day, parents stopped guarding and wigglers were gone! At least the Neons in QT got a ton of BBS.
> 
> Watching a school of 40 neons hunt BBS is mesmerizing.
> 
> Next time when they color up to breed, I will overfeed and keep the CO2 on 24/7 before they spawn.


Hopefully they get it right soon... that's a bummer... even if you don't really have a place for them.. having fry and watching the parental care is super interesting.. it's been a long time since I had success rearing fry... had a couple yellow labs make it where I thought they would have made it several months ago.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I think part of problem could be tank has clear divider. One of fish on other side really wants in! Could be stressing them.

Its my fault, i have these six fish 4 in mt, 2 in 29, and i need to rehome at least two.

If i have mff, the females fight over the male. Most i can have in peace is two in mt two in 29..its weird, they shoal together in the mt..on opposite sides of divider, but when i remove divider, the girls fight. Maybe if i had more males?

The two in the 29 seem depressed. They are a breeding pair, but they arent trying. Its like they need a shoal but the tank is way too small.

Looking back...the six grew up in a 29g..and i think the females are not sure who belongs with the males. Even when pair is breeding, female on other side flashes at male, and the paired female tries to fight her off. I feel sad and responsible for this mess.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Still battling a minor ick infestation in the 10g qt. Neons are all doing well, but im not adding them to mt untill 3 weeks without any spots.

Using ick guard this time.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

It's crazy to me how the dynamic can change in a short period of time with fish that have grown up together.. there is no way to ever tell what will happen... but just like you said when it doesnt work out we feel responsible. I've got a single pair of Caucatoides coming because that was the only way I could get a female... so now I'll have 3 males and 1 female. I'm hoping they can find a way to coexist.. or hopefully a pair forms and I can then catch and move the other two males... but even then the dynamic could change... there is only one solution. A 300+ gallon tank... I broke the news to my wife today... I told her it's just not up to me... it's science..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Wow. Congrats.

I have the two breeding pairs in mt w divider. The two other females in 29g and fighting. I hope when they havent seen a male for a while they will calm down.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Man the growth in your tank is awesome... I know java fern is a little slower, but I'm just not seeing much growth.. the bolbitus still isn't doing much and the crypts aren't growing that well... the stems grew like crazy, but they were scraggly.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> It's crazy to me how the dynamic can change in a short period of time with fish that have grown up together.. there is no way to ever tell what will happen... but just like you said when it doesnt work out we feel responsible. I've got a single pair of Caucatoides coming because that was the only way I could get a female... so now I'll have 3 males and 1 female. I'm hoping they can find a way to coexist.. or hopefully a pair forms and I can then catch and move the other two males... but even then the dynamic could change... there is only one solution. A 300+ gallon tank... I broke the news to my wife today... I told her it's just not up to me... it's science..


I predict it will get worse. The males will fight even more w the female. Youll probably have to put the others in different tanks. But a pair will form. Imo, i would add them all to the new environment at same time. If 2 males are established they will dominate new guy.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

ChrisX said:


> I predict it will get worse. The males will fight even more w the female. Youll probably have to put the others in different tanks. But a pair will form. Imo, i would add them all to the new environment at same time. If 2 males are established they will dominate new guy.


That's a very good idea... the 2 I have now are "gold". The new one is a regular triple red. I can't put the breeding pair in the other tank as the syno's would wipe out any fry. So add a female to the 2 gold males or remove one and add the pair to the other gold in the tank?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> Man the growth in your tank is awesome... I know java fern is a little slower, but I'm just not seeing much growth.. the bolbitus still isn't doing much and the crypts aren't growing that well... the stems grew like crazy, but they were scraggly.


Even with CO2 and EI dosing? Maybe the secret sauce is the soil substrate.

I'm starting to realize why certain plant varieties are more popular in dutch aquascaping. Stems generally grow straight up towards the light and are manageable in high light tanks. Some of my plants are "monsters" like the Stuaragyne Bihar... which despite being in a corner, keeps growing to the surface and creating giant leaves. And the Hygro Willow... I keep having to trim it back, but the original stems get thicker and harder.. this one gets out of hand.

The AR purple is growing even faster recently. Either the extra circulation/oxygen from the UV filter, or the lower but steady 24.7 co2. idk.

The buce is pretty well established and there are a bunch of leaves. These started as rhizomes without leaves, now one of the stems is 2". There was some BHA on the old dead parts of the rhizome, but I put the log they are attached to in a H2O2 dip for 5 min... BHA died, looking great now.

The hygro polysperma almost grows too fast and bushy for my tank. I am constantly trimming it, and it has this nasty habit of sending out side runners into the adjacent plants. If I only had this, I could create an entire back wall of it in about a month. Sadly, its not the most attractive, at least how I have it planted.

The red tiger lotus never reached the surface, but new leaves are always reaching for it. This plant doesnt have any real aesthetic impact.. I might move it to the foreground/midground and keep it low.

Potamogeton gayi competes with the hygro polysperma, but its doing well and has sent a chain across the front of tank.

The tanganykan val. has been sending out runners and some of the clumps are getting quite tall, 6-8". I like this.

The pygmy chain sword is doing equally well, but its growth is lower.

Ludwigia narrow leaf has nice red/orange growth, but it starts growing sideways at top. I have been propogating to increase the size of the group, but its getting crowded.

Water sprite, great growth, constant trimming, but I like how it looks and it doesnt crowd out other plants.

Ambulia, water primrose, good steady growth, not too fast, trim every few weeks.

Ranunculus inundates, growing well, needs trims to stay low.

HC Japan, grows anywhere. Its not attached to anything, this giant ball just stays where I put it.

Monte Carlo. This is only one that has had setbacks. I think the sand is too deep for it to reach soil. It has spread some, but original clumps had algae then melted away. I will need to replant this.




Unfortunately, tank needs a rescape. The aquascaping has been derailed by the Keyhole Cichlid fighting and breeding, but everything is growing well and very little algae. I think that the 50g can only really home one pair of keyholes.. I will need to rehome some before I can add the neons and other fish.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Keyhole Cichilds Have spawned again!

Last time, after the first day, only about half the eggs were viable, so I lowered the CO2 and set it 24/7 to keep constant neutral pH. By the thrid day, I had about 15 wigglers, the parents moved them, but the following day they were gone.

This time, I set the CO2 to 24/7 once they had spawned, and many more were viable the second day. On day three, they are now wigglers and there are about 50 of them. Hopefully some will make it to free swimming this time. 

There were many spawns at pH 8.1 that never made it to wigglers, it seems that CO2 is a good way to keep the pH neutral. Unfortunately I don't have CO2 on the tank that is supposed to be the breeder. I may just keep up the divider and let the parents raise them in the MT.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Yesterday there were wigglers, today they started moving them around. I cant see any of them, but they are still guarding the area deep in a plant thicket, so I assume some are still alive. Nothing to show.

Earlier today, one of the wigglers was "jumping" it looked like it might soon be free swimming.

I did make this though:

It's a BBS Injector. Lets me squirt a small portion of BBS down to the area the parents are guarding. I have already fed several times today, even though they probably aren't free swimming. I figure 1ml of BBS won't add much to the bio load; better than having them starve if they hatched early.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

That's awesome. They're making progress!! The other male apisto's were moved from the top tank so it's just the new pair.. I hope to get fry soon!! I want to add another pair of maybe Panduro's or Baenschi or something. The bottom tank will have to hold the exiles for now. No luck finding a 75+??


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> That's awesome. They're making progress!! The other male apisto's were moved from the top tank so it's just the new pair.. I hope to get fry soon!! I want to add another pair of maybe Panduro's or Baenschi or something. The bottom tank will have to hold the exiles for now. No luck finding a 75+??


Did the apistos form a pair, or did you pick?

A 75 wont help me now. I would probably still need the divider to keep the breeding pair separate.

Just before the lights went off today, I saw that there was still a little pack of wigglers on the side of a pit the parents dug. They are still guarding them, I would estimate there are 15-20. The one that I saw jumping earlier may have been a premie.

I wonder if the parents cull the fry to a manageable number? In nature I would be doubtful if even five make it to adulthood from any given spawn. They may eat eggs to keep the number low so that fewer are competing for food.

That said, the parents are fertile and seem to be showing parenting skills. If these don't make it, I will remove the next spawn to a breeding box and later a grow out. I think that is the best way to get a good yield. Letting the parents raise them, I would probably be lucky to get 5-10 healthy fish. OTH, they may retain a family bond.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

This is pretty exciting! Its the third day of wigglers and the parents have them collected in a pit they have dug. I estimate there are 15-20, and they seem to have mostly emerged from the eggs, but aren't free swimming yet.

I have a dual BBS hatchery going, a new batch started daily, so I always have some. They seem to survive at least 24 hours after hatching. The mother attacked the BBS tube earlier when I was feeding.

My only concern is the tank setup. The pit is probably 8" from the canister inlet, which is about 4" above the substrate. I am considering disconnecting the intake tube at the top so water is drawn from high in the tank. Othewise I will need to put some kind of filter on the outside of the inlet. I dont want to mess around in the tank.


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## giwan (Sep 11, 2017)

wow, this is a great story to read.
Is it possible to make a picture of the hole they dug, or is it too covered up?
I am very curious as to what it looks like ;P


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

ChrisX said:


> Did the apistos form a pair, or did you pick?
> 
> A 75 wont help me now. I would probably still need the divider to keep the breeding pair separate.
> 
> ...


That's a good question.. I got them from ApistoDave. They don't seem to be interacting, but the onslaught from the 2 Gold Apisto's probably shook them up.
Would you be able to sell / rehome young ones? Are you wanting to raise them in the main tank.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> That's a good question.. I got them from ApistoDave. They don't seem to be interacting, but the onslaught from the 2 Gold Apisto's probably shook them up.
> Would you be able to sell / rehome young ones? Are you wanting to raise them in the main tank.


If there are enough, I'm sure I can sell them to the LFS. If there aren't many, I might let the parents raise them until/if there is conflict, then sell to LFS.

I may be getting ahead of myself. There are still 15-20 wigglers and their body is visible although they were only bouncing off the sand a little bit before lights went off.

Most keyhole spawns I have seen on YT have 50-100 free swimmers, so I'm not sure if this batch is viable. Most of the eggs were fertile (probably 250 eggs) from the start, but on the last day of eggs, parents did a cull, and it seems even more were lost when they rounded them into the pit. On the first day of wigglers, there were ~75 eggs with tails.

OTH, if 15-20 make it to free swimming, that is enough to try to raise them, and they are very close to swimming.

Bump:


giwan said:


> wow, this is a great story to read.
> Is it possible to make a picture of the hole they dug, or is it too covered up?
> I am very curious as to what it looks like ;P



I will try to post some pics, but I dont want to scare them. The tank has 1" sand on top of 1" soil. They dug into the sand, but not into the soil. The sand pit is about 1" (deep) x 2" x 2".

If you look at the most overgrown pics of my tanks, the pit is roughly in the middle of the most overgrown part of the tank on the right side. They could be hiding swimmers and I wouldn't even know.

I've been feeding small doses of BBS several times a day in case there are some ready to eat. I expect swimmers tomorrow.

Because the parents spawn so frequently, I will let them try to raise them, and if these perish, I will probably separate the next batch to a breeder box. Many eggs made it to early wigglers, but the parents seem to have done a cull.

Also, I have wrapped the filter input with a fine mesh media bag, so no one gets sucked up.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

That's a good point.. getting in there trying to take pics could upset the parents who then eat the fry... again. I see more tanks in your future.


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## giwan (Sep 11, 2017)

yeah good point, maybe don't try to make that picture then ;D 
lets hope these survive, would be awesome (and easier) if you could let the parents raise the fry ;P


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I've been watching alot today. The wigglers are still in the pit the parents dug. When one of the wigglers jumps away, the parents pick it up and spit it back into the pile. They are not free swimming, but neither are most of them attached to their egg sac. I would say there are still 15-20+ of them, but this is the fourth day since I saw tail emerge from egg.

I am a bit concerned that they are not free swimming yet, but its not clear when they actually become wigglers. I think tomorrow morning they will either be free swimming or something is wrong. Parents are very attentive and showing good parenting. I have not noticed any wigglers disappear; headcount looks about the same.

Water parameters: pH 6.8, Amm =0, Nitrite = 0; Nitrate < 5ppm.

EI dosing has taken a back seat. Still running CO2 24/7. But doing 1/4 EI dosing twice a week to keep Nitrates low. Plants are all doing fine.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Right before lights out, I saw a free swimmer! Tomorrow morning I will get to see how many make it.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

They are still wigglers this morning... There may be more than I first estimated. There is a pack of 25+ wigging. Dont see any free swimmers.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I don't think the wigglers are going to make it. 

This is day six. In the pit the parents dug, are still 15+ wigglers. Occasionally they push off, but aren't really free swimming, and there isn't as much activity. I have squirted some BBS in the area but they arent going after it, neither do they appear to be attached to eggs. They look like they could be free swimming, but they aren't.

Parents have been so devoted, so protective. Its sad.

Water params: Amm 0, Nitrites 0, nitrates < 5, pH 6.7

Ive been doing trace amounts of EI fertilization for two weeks now, plant growth still bonkers. I guess they are getting many nutrients from substrate.

ON a positive note, this is week five for the PB CO2 tank and the pressure is not dropping. I've been running 1bps 24/7 the majority of that time. Seem to be getting more mileage out of this tank.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Man that's tough... I hope they make it, but if not they'll probably try again and maybe have a larger spawn? Do you have any dither fish in there with them?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

End of day 6, the wigglers are still alive. (15-20) I see them bouncing along the sand sometimes. Parents have them in a tight pack. Parents definitely haven't given up and the number is not declining, but they aren't exactly swimming.

I have heard 4-6 days til free swimming with some other cichlid species, although 3-5 is usually quoted. Temp is 75* which may be at the low end... which could explain the slower pace. Its been six days since I first saw tails.. so maybe they haven't officially been wigglers that long. 

I squirted some BBS a few times today, parents attack the BBS injector. I suppose I'll know more tomorrow, but I've been waiting for ten days on this spawn.


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## giwan (Sep 11, 2017)

Just give it some more time, like you said the temp is on the lower side, let's just hope that's it  
quite exciting even from so far away ;P very curious to see if they'll make it!
keep us updated ;D


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

FRY!

There are more than I thought, possibly 25-30.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

Nice!! 


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

That's alot of fry!! How many spawns did it take for them to get to this point? Do you know how long they can stay with the parents?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> That's alot of fry!! How many spawns did it take for them to get to this point? Do you know how long they can stay with the parents?


Apparently the parents can raise them for months. I'm going to let the parents handle this naturally unless their behavior changes. If these don't make it because of parents, I will separate next spawn earlier.

This male paired with another female and they spawned six times in 29g tank, always ate eggs day three. He rejected her so I put them back in main tank. He paired with another and they spawned twice.

I think the difference is 24/7 CO2 -> pH is more neutral and constant. Also barely dosing any ferts.. nitrates < 5ppm. I think the spawns in the 29g tank were doomed because my tap water is ph8.1. Things only started working when I got the idea to use the Co2 to fix a neutral pH.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Great fish experience for sure!

Plants still thriving?

Any interest in more plants?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Great fish experience for sure!
> 
> Plants still thriving?
> 
> Any interest in more plants?


Plants still doing well. Although I'm playing with fire right now. Tank has been on very reduced ferts over past two weeks because of spawn.. That said, tank is still a jungle. . I trim the top 1/3rd and within a week they are all at the top again.

The only slow(er) growers are the Ambulia, the Golden Lyodelia, and of course the Buce. The MC is not carpeting anymore but its still alive. 

The blob of HC japan grows wherever I put it in the tank, its getting quite large and floats all over. It will be a bigger part of the tank when I rescape. The tanganyikan val. is doing great and there is a little forest of it in the middle of the tank, it seems to top out at 9-10" (so far). The amazon chain sword is also doing its thing. The AR purple is at the top of the tank and needs to be trimmed and propagated.

I want to do a rescape and would like to try some other plants, but the keyhole spawn put that on a back burner. When the keyhole fry are large enough, I may move them to a grow out tank, then rescape.

Really happy with the plants you gave me! I think soil and CO2.. you can't go wrong.

Bump: This is what's happening on the other side of the main tank. Both the females on this side like playing in the UV filter outlet. Hopefully I can get a video of them doing it at the same time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIZmKLJCWF8&feature=youtu.be


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

That guy playing in the current is awesome 


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

mbkemp said:


> That guy playing in the current is awesome
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Gal.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Fry in the main tank are still doing well. I estimate 25-30 free swimming fry. Eating BBS multiple times a day. Their insides turn red when they have eaten.

Interestingly, the pair in the 29g have also spawned and are sitting eggs. This time the eggs are in a place thats visible so I can see if they are fertile or not. The eggs have been there about five hours and still appear fertile. I may have another male!


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Eggs in the 29g are still fertile, I have another pair! 

I don't think they will make it because pH is higher in there... But it would be great to have fry from different parents for genetic diversity.

Does anyone know how that works? Is sister/brother pairing common in fish, and is it a bad thing?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Keyhole Cichlid fry, day four. Feeding BBS 4-5 times a day.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

End of week one, there are still 25-30 fry. I'm glad I put a micro mesh bag on the filter input because they would have surely been sucked up. They spend alot of time in the vicinity of the filter input, likely eating dead BBS from the mesh.

They are probably 3-4x bigger than they were when they were wigglers. I feel like they will grow faster the more food they get. They are acting like cichlids now, grazing on the driftwood and plants for food, not just floating around and trying to swallow anything that moves.

I need to figure out what to feed them as they get larger. Two weeks at a minimum on BBS, then I will have to either grow out the brine shrimp, or find a small frozen food they can eat. At some point they will be too big to derive any nutritional value from BBS.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

ChrisX said:


> End of week one, there are still 25-30 fry.


Starting to sound like a success story.:grin2:


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Starting to sound like a success story.:grin2:


This is a pretty good/natural breeding/growout setup. All the plants consume Nitrates, so I have to keep dosing small amounts so the plants stay alive. (It never gets above 5ppm anymore.)

I think this means that I don't have to do the frequent water changes that someone would if they were using a small and uncycled growout tank.

Let me know if you want any for your tanks.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Video of fry eating BBS, week 1.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

Nice job!! 


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Keyhole cichlid fry, week 2. I've started feeding them crushed flake along with the BBS.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

That's nice, congrats... now you need to tackle a new problem... where to put all of those fry.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

vvDO said:


> That's nice, congrats... now you need to tackle a new problem... where to put all of those fry.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I will probably grow them out in the 50g they are in. There are only around 30 fry.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

That is so awesome. It must be really cool to come out to that every morning. Successful spawning for most of us is the epitome of success with these tanks. I'm hoping I have some luck with these Caucatoides. Are you still running C02 24 hours a day?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> That is so awesome. It must be really cool to come out to that every morning. Successful spawning for most of us is the epitome of success with these tanks. I'm hoping I have some luck with these Caucatoides. Are you still running C02 24 hours a day?



Yep, 24/7.

Whats weird is that tomorrow I will need a refill and it lasted a little over 6 weeks this time (only 4 weeks last fill running 8 hours/day @ 3bps), and according to the chart, its been 30+ ppm the whole time. I'm going to lower it some more, I hope to get 8 weeks next refill.

I think that its easy to build up higher CO2 with proportionally less flow if kept 24/7. Also there is less fluctuation which is good for everything in the tank. I'm of the belief that 24/7 co2 with tons of aeration is the ticket.

Plants all still growing well. I'm not even aquascaping, I just cut the top 6" off everything each week. I dont want to change the tank very much while the fry are small. When they are bigger I will rescape the tank, it has gotten completely out of hand. I'm just keeping everything growing.

Good luck with your breeding. I only went to 24/7 to fix the ph for the fish. I believe its why the parents followed through with the spawn this time.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

When I started feeding the fry crushed flake, the parents realized the food injector was not dangerous and they don't attack it anymore. The baby fish recognize it now and get excited when they see it.

The fry still don't love the flake food, but the parents create clouds of it by stirring up the substrate and the fry eat it eventually.

I've also noticed that since upping the food dosage, there has been an explosion of pond snails. If anyone wonders why they have an outbreak of pond snails, it's because they are overfeeding! I think the pond snails may be preferable at this point; I'd rather have a ton of pond snails cleaning up uneaten food than having the food dirty the water. However, I still have to add Nitrogen because the plant mass consumes all the nitrates.

If I ever try Discus, I think a heavily planted, high tech tank could make them much easier to grow because the eco system is natural and cleans the water. It might be possible to grow discus without insane daily water changes if they are living in a high tech jungle.
@MarylandGuppy.. All the plants are doing well, but the Tanganyikan Val, is one of the most prolific, it sends out runners in the substrate, and new groups keep popping up. Also, they will eventually reach to the top of the tank. I thought this was a dwarf species. No worries.

When I rescape I will use larger groups of fewer plants. I like the val and will probably make heavy use of it as a background/midground plant.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Im debating upgrading to a 75g, my stand can hold it, but I'm not sure how difficult it will be to switch everything over, especially with the growing fry.

My plan is to build a canopy, install my DIY leds, and this will allow me to spread the lights out more over the tank.

I will have a leftover 50g that I can put the flourescent lights back in. I'm not sure I want to have two "largish" tanks running.

Anyone offer some advice on difficulty of swapping everything over? Will tank cycle again? Planning on doing MGOC again.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

I was told it was a shorter species.
Only had it in my 75 with 30 PAR and no miracle-gro.
It was a small species!:grin2:


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

I would definitely wait until the fry are older. Wait until they start to really look like little fish instead of little sperm.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Most genotypes have phenotypic plasticity so their characteristics can change in certain environments. As to switching over I don't think it would be any harder than say removing fry to rear them yourself, but I would probably wait until they are more "juvenile" fish as opposed to fry. I've had success doing tank / substrate swaps, but I also had a whole tank of fish killed simply by draining the water to move it and then filling it back up. Soil presents a unique set of challenges. Lots of opportunities for anaerobic buildup and ammonia spikes.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Babyfish, week 3.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

This is awesome


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Yesterday I had a scare when trying to vac some of the debris under the fish. They were all up top swimming in the Pennywort, so I figured it was a good time to do it. Unfortunately, I sucked up one of the babies. Thankfully he went all the way through the tube without getting stuck in the siphon bulb, so I was able to put him back.

These little guys are growing super fast, based on what I see compared to Angel and Convict fry.

Fry get BBS first thing in morning, then adults get fed. Today was bloodworms, and I was surprised that some of the fry were eating the worms! (These are pretty small worms) I saw one of them "smoking" a worm, trying to get it to go down for a minute, until he was finally able to work a piece loose.

They aren't enthusiastic about flake so I've been feeding BBS primarily mixed with some flake. Hopefully when the get larger, their growing bodies will need the calories and they will be forced to accept flake. You can get those huge containers of flake from Amazon for $10. I think that bulk flake food is the only economical way to grow them out. I've decided against growing out brine shrimp for them as they will never transition to flake if they are getting live food every day.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Keyhole Cichlid Fry, Week 4






The parents did a cull of the early wigglers, but since they have been free swimming, there has not been a single loss. There are still around 28-30 baby fish. Keyhole markings are starting to show.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Got this at the dpg sale. Plan is to build a wood canopy, transfer my DI lights into it, and build a double stand for the 50 and 29g tanks. Probably won't get around to it for another month, but at least I have plans to increase my tank space.

Most of the baby keyholes will go to the LFS, but I plan to keep a few with the parents and see if they maintain a bond. I might be able to cross breed them with some of my older fish.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Is that a 20 long? I have the same thoughts on getting fish accustomed to flake and pellets. I always feed a little flake or pellets first then add the mysis shrimp. I'm hoping for some success here shortly.
Fish are looking good!


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> Is that a 20 long? I have the same thoughts on getting fish accustomed to flake and pellets. I always feed a little flake or pellets first then add the mysis shrimp. I'm hoping for some success here shortly.
> Fish are looking good!


Its a 75 gallon! :laugh2:

Bump:


The Dude1 said:


> Is that a 20 long? I have the same thoughts on getting fish accustomed to flake and pellets. I always feed a little flake or pellets first then add the mysis shrimp. I'm hoping for some success here shortly.
> Fish are looking good!


Most of the fry are eating flake, but they never chow down on it. When I feed them BBS, their bellies get round. With flake, they pick at it. I can tell how much a fish has had by how swollen she is.

I'm going to feed BBS for another week or two, but not as much as before; I really need them to eat flake (for their own good.) 

I highly recommend hatching baby brine shrimp for fry. There is no question that they will eat it, and they really chow on it.

My BBS hatchery is two 1 litre bottles. Each morning I add tank water, eggs, 1 tbsp of salt, and a pinch of baking soda. They hatch the next morning (18-24 hours) and can be fed through the day. 
I start a new batch every morning and move the airline tube to the new batch.

To feed, I put light at bottom of bottle to draw them down, suck BBS from the bottom (1 mL), and inject into the fry swarm. I don't even filter them, some salt goes directly into the MT, but its such a small amount. Feed 4-5 times a day if possible.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Here is a better week 4 video. I removed a ton of Brazillian Pennywort which had carpeted at the surface and blocked out much of the light. Tank will soon be moved and rescaped; the plants are there only to consume nitrates and provide shelter.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I've been staring at the 75g tank, trying to figure out what to do with it. The original plan was to replace the 50g with the 75g, but that would require breaking down the 50g tank, and I'm using it to grow out my Keyhole Cichlids.. Instead I have decided to replace the 29g, but this will need a stand!

In my basement is an old desk I got a while back that I really dislike. I would have thrown it out, except that it easily weighs 300+ lbs and there is no way to get it up the stairs. I could take it apart, but then the trash service wouldn't pick it up (they don't remove building materials; only furniture.) Instead of a trip to the landfill and killing even more trees, I am going to rebuild it into an aquarium stand. 

The plan for the 75g is to home my other adult keyholes, but instead of heavily planted, I will go with a few larger fish and more hardscape. Maybe a severum, threadfin acara, blue acara, t-bar, etc. It will still have plants, but will be low tech (for the time being). The 50g tank will be rescaped, home the breeding pair of keyholes and some tetra schools.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

*The Frame*

Used the basic design from MFKs.com, with some minor modifications. Instead of using 2x6 upper rails, I used 2x4 with a center support. 

I decided that the top of the stand will be 32.5". Still easy to clean and scape, but a couple inches higher than the petstore stands. 

When I was screwing in the weight bearing legs, I had the top weighed down with 300 pounds of weight plates to make sure everything was compressed, before locking it together. 

Total cost so far (7x studs, 1# screws): $33.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Are you using the desk or that? Either way that stand looks great. So you're going to break down the 29 and just have the 50 and 75? If so, get rid of that 29 asap or you'll find yourself setting it back up! I've played that game!


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> Are you using the desk or that? Either way that stand looks great. So you're going to break down the 29 and just have the 50 and 75? If so, get rid of that 29 asap or you'll find yourself setting it back up! I've played that game!



Haha... I was planning to break down the 29g.... but its fully cycled and could be a good QT. Or at some point I will need it as a growout tank.

So that it doesnt take any maintenance, I might get one of those automated liquid dose machines, and inject a small amount of ammonia every day to keep the cycle going.

I'm still using the desk, you will see....


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Keyhole Cichlid Fry, week 5

Last week there was a scare when the female from the other side of the tank jumped the partition and had a showdown with the mamma fish. idk how long she was in there, but I shooed her back to her side of the tank. None of the baby fish were harmed.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Thinking ahead... very smart. Those fish are really growing fast!


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> Thinking ahead... very smart. Those fish are really growing fast!


I may already need more room. Daddy fish is getting annoyed that some of the babys are eating his food.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Baby fish, week 6

The babyfish are growing steadily. I've been vacuuming the substrate twice a week to keep water clean. Feeding 4-5 times a day. Flake, BBS every other day, and sometime frozen food from the parent's feedings. The BBS don't have enough calories to grow the larger fish, but I still include them because two of the smaller fish are still not voracious flake eaters.

I would say that growth is amazing and ahead of most similar size cichlid broods (convicts, angels) I've seen on YouTube and on par with one of the professional angel growers. They are around 3/4" in length. (The father is 4".) They say that fry grow faster with parents, and the water parameters are excellent. UV steriler 24/7, every single fry is doing well.

I bought one of those large cans of Tetramin flake (kept in fridge) and am feeding from one of the small containers. Its amazing how much the fry are eating. I may start growing out the brine shrimp, using egg yolk as food; but I want them used to flake for their own sake before I add live foods. 

Fry still have some of the baby multicolor camo markings (hard to see in vid). I'm interested to see if the fry markings are related to size or actual age. I am going to keep a few of the juevenilles and observe the social dynamics that develop with the parents as they age. Also want to see how large they will grow with best possible care from birth.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Keyhole cichlid fry, week 7.






There was an "emergency" a couple days ago. While doing a water change, the internal divider fell down and a handful of baby keyholes ventured to the other side. I tried to shoo them back but then more escaped into the thick val on the left side.

Realized I wasnt going to get them back, so I moved the other two adults to the 29g. MT now has the parents and 30 babies. 

I started working on a complete rescape. I totally neglected the plants over the past two months.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Do you think that the adults would bother them? Maybe they aren't as big as they look in the vids, but with so many I wouldn't think they's bother them? When and which tank are you adding the Neons? This morning just like you said all 20 or so Neons were packed into this little corner. One got between the black egg crate and the back glass. I don't know if he was alive, but he certainly wasn't when I finally got him out. I fixed the area and I'm going to start adding anubias to the egg crate next week. As of now I only lost this one guy.. who may have just wedged himself in there and the one that didn't look good when I saw it in the bag at the store. Crazy I have never done this before. 
How long are you averaging for C02 now? My tank is about out. So I got about 4 months at a pretty high rate in 2 75 gallons. That's not bad. Going to turn it down some for the next tank at least in the top tank. Its pretty nicely filled in


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> Do you think that the adults would bother them? Maybe they aren't as big as they look in the vids, but with so many I wouldn't think they's bother them? When and which tank are you adding the Neons? This morning just like you said all 20 or so Neons were packed into this little corner. One got between the black egg crate and the back glass. I don't know if he was alive, but he certainly wasn't when I finally got him out. I fixed the area and I'm going to start adding anubias to the egg crate next week. As of now I only lost this one guy.. who may have just wedged himself in there and the one that didn't look good when I saw it in the bag at the store. Crazy I have never done this before.
> How long are you averaging for C02 now? My tank is about out. So I got about 4 months at a pretty high rate in 2 75 gallons. That's not bad. Going to turn it down some for the next tank at least in the top tank. Its pretty nicely filled in


I don't think the adults on the other side would hurt the babies, but the parents would probably kill them.

1bps 24/7 gets me six weeks.

I've noticed with less plant mass, CO2 has been creeping up. ph 6.4. I've added 4x 2hr "off" intervals, during lights off, may add even more off. 

It looks like with good CO2 management, I will be able to get 8-10 weeks from a 24oz tank.

I forgot to mention, one of the light bars has been broken for a week. I have to fix it, which may involve a new driver (hopefully its just a burnd out LED). After two months of neglect, the plants didn't need to lose half their light.

Good luck with your schools. IMO, reduce ferts for a few weeks. You plants will survive.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

*31*

There are 31 in this pic. I think it is all of them.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Week 8


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I've begun working on the 75g stand again. Found a couple nice sheets of 1/2" maple ply at Lowes. There are some minor defects, but both sides are stainable and I can work around the defects. 

These are the nicest "light wood" ply sheets I have found at big box or local lumber yard. Looking through the local stacks, most of them don't even have full veneers and the vast majority only have one finishable side. I was open to using birch or maple, but finding these at a (not local) lowes sealed the deal. Have to look around to find good wood.

Didnt want oak because the grain is rough and its harder to paint; the maple gives me the option to stain or paint (if construction does not go as planned.)

Original design called for 3/4" ply, which would make attaching to the frame easier. With 1/2" it will take some extra effort, but the stand and canopy will be lighter.

I don't have many woodworking tools, the whole thing will be done with jigs and a circular saw.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Baby Keyhole Cichlids, Week 9.

Tank is undergoing major changes. I replanted everything two weeks ago and have increased fert dosing to (almost) normal levels. Algae has taken the old leaves on the AR and there is some BBA on some of the val that I replanted. Still dont have any plan for the foreground, so it is untouched until I figure out what I want.

I'm starting to see the limitations of this light design. It is high light, but it is all concentrated in a 3" area near the middle. Everything looks good until the background plants reach near the top, then light to the substrate gets blocked and the tank takes on a darker cast.

For the 75, I will have the ability to spread out the leds so this doesn't happen.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Keyhole Cichlid Fry, Week 10

This will be the last video in this series. The baby fish are super healthy and of a size to be sold.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

Are you going to ship? Keyholes are pretty cool fish


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

mbkemp said:


> Are you going to ship? Keyholes are pretty cool fish
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


LFS has said they would buy them. I'm not set up to ship them, although if a local forum member (MD area) wanted to pick some up, I could make arrangements.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

ChrisX said:


> LFS has said they would buy them. I'm not set up to ship them, although if a local forum member (MD area) wanted to pick some up, I could make arrangements.


That's very cool. I think that says a lot for your local LFS. Its been my experience that the fish from local hobbyists are healthier than the masses sent from fish farms and by giving store credit it makes it that much more affordable. I bought my first two Red Lasers for $12 a piece I think. They just got some in from a local rainbowfish guy that are not only better looking than mine at a smaller size, but they were $5 each!!
Are you going to continue to raise broods or are you moving in another direction now?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> That's very cool. I think that says a lot for your local LFS. Its been my experience that the fish from local hobbyists are healthier than the masses sent from fish farms and by giving store credit it makes it that much more affordable. I bought my first two Red Lasers for $12 a piece I think. They just got some in from a local rainbowfish guy that are not only better looking than mine at a smaller size, but they were $5 each!!
> Are you going to continue to raise broods or are you moving in another direction now?


I treated all of these fish with the utmost care. Species tank. Live food for the first six weeks, fed 5 times a day, were cared for by their parents, low hardness, perfect pH, etc.

From what I've seen on You Tube, when larger groups of cichlid fry are raised (angels, acaras, convicts, etc), they do not grow as quickly and there is a much greater variation in size between fish. (There is a video of someone raising 200+ EBA fry on YouTube and they were smaller than my keyholes in twice as many days.. and EBAs are bigger fish.)

It may be because the parents are not present, they are being raised in a glass bottom tank as opposed to a simulated habitat, or possibly because its not possible to feed as much without the tank water quality getting bad. I noticed that my plants were starving for nitrates and I still had to add small doses of ferts because they consumed all the extras from the fish, even feeding as much as I have been. Nitrates were always below 5ppm. 

I haven't decided if I will raise more. The parents are already acting like they want to make more, but I'm not sure if I can do it again.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Another update on my Keyhole tanks...

I've been building a stand/canopy for an upcoming 75g tank, but to make space for it, I needed to consolidate the 29g and 10g tanks into a smaller space. I had some leftover 1x6" dimensional lumber from the original 75g stand design, so I found a use for it in building this double-decker stand. Painted medium grey because I already had a gallon of it leftover from a home project last year.

The four adult keyholes are getting along in the 29g tank, the 50g tank still has the breeding pair and the babies.

Also.. if anyone is interested is some beautiful young keyhole cichlids, I've decided that I'd be willing to ship them to good homes. PM me if interested. The cost will not be much more than the cost of shipping (styrofoam, bags, heatpack, fedex). They are 1.25" in length. Or they can be picked up in Maryland.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

That looks really clean!! Good job!


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## Rogozhin75 (Aug 15, 2017)

Wow, I love the double tank stand. Nice work!


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Some bad news....

I wanted to increase the filtration in my tank so I purchased a Whisper 60 Filter. Its quiet, moves a good amount of water, and is relatively innocuous. 

Last night while making adjustments to the filter, I took it out of the tank and put it back in. This morning I found that the filter flow had been reduced to a trickle. It turns out that when I took the filter out of the tank, the filter intake piece had fallen off and was sucking water in through a 1" tube. Two of the babies had been sucked into the filter and were crushed at the impeller housing. Fortunately this stopped the water flow so more were not sucked in.

While this is my fault, the filter intake design is poor. The grate piece does not lock in place, does not even sit firmly on the tube. Maybe I have assembled it wrong. (Edit: I just checked the assembly and one of the pieces is defective; it is thinner and the adjoining piece does not lock into it.)

I feel absolutely horrible.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Damn man that sucks... I can only imagine it's 10x worse when you raised them... sorry dude. Really nothing you could have done though. It was through no fault of your own.


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

That is the worst. I had a pond pump for an old goldfish pond that used to suck fish in. It was so gruesome.


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## StevieD (Jun 17, 2017)

Yep nothing worse ... had a pair of Blue Acaras that had a spawn of 150 + all swimming around in a 75 gallon, matured tank went to bed they were all fine. Woke up in the morning and they were all floating.

Never did find out what killed them 

Water parameters were as good as they had ever been, filters were running just fine and the heater is still running on another tank 9 years later.

Never been able to bring myself to buying another pair.

I am glad no more of your youngsters paid the ultimate price though.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> Damn man that sucks... I can only imagine it's 10x worse when you raised them... sorry dude. Really nothing you could have done though. It was through no fault of your own.


Thanks for your kind words.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

ChrisX said:


> Thanks for your kind words.


How many juveniles do you have remaining? Have you got the 75 up and running yet?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> How many juveniles do you have remaining? Have you got the 75 up and running yet?


There are supposed to be 29, but most i count is 28. There may have been one hiding somewhere, but i fear the filter may have killed three, even though i only found two bodies.

75 not up yet, busy with holidays.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Its been a while since i updated on this tank. The past six months it was used to raise keyhole cichlids from fry. Plants became an afterthought. Ive had co2 24 7, around 30-40 ppm. Constant aeration from venturi, fish very happy. I found by keeping low, constant co2, i only run 1 bps. If i use solenoid, i need 3 bps to ramp. I end up using same amt co2, so i keep it 24 7.

Ive been dosing very low ei to keep nitates low for fry(babyfish). Tank will get overgrown without weekly trim, which i often neglect to do. The biggest problem with this tank is concentrated high light in single bar..when plants reach top they block much light..it almost demands a trim every five days or so..but im lazy. Also floating plants block too much..but im lazy.

Anyway, i think with better circulation and light dsatribution, and higher ei, this tank will get back to its winning ways. Here are last two vids.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I've decided that I'm going to break down this tank when the 75g is ready. This started out as a promising planted tank, but soon after setting it up, the Keyholes spawned and my efforts went into raising them. Here is a list of experiences/mistakes and things I learned from this tank:

1) Light quality is of utmost importance. The whole artistry of the tank depends upon the quality of the light. I built a "high PAR" light into the existing aqueon hoods using cheap EPI white leds. The tank is largely devoid of color. Many of the cheap fixtures with mixed color leds look better than what I built.

2) Light adjustment is of utmost importance. I built a switch into these lights which has a low/med/high setting. Unfortunately, the low setting is still pretty high par (because of the AC drivers I chose). Because the lights are in a fixed position, they needed to have an adjustment ability so I could back off the light. If a fixture does not have adjustable intensity, then it needs to be hanging or suspended.

3) Light dispersion is of utmost importance. These put out a TON of light, but its all concentrated in a 3" bar in the back/middle of the tank. The stems grow like rockets and unless they are frequently trimmed, they block light to the rest of the plants below. In future tanks, I will have the lights spread evenly across the top. I also will consider lensing any leds that I use to increase par at the substrate. Having higher mounted lights that are more focused will create a more even PAR gradient through the entire tank. IOW, PAR at the substate and PAR at the top should be more similar.

4) MGOC is great, but it needs to be filtered of wood chips! I followed a youtube video of some guy pouring it directly from the bag into his tank. No where did he filter it. The problem is that as plants grow and are replanted, wood chips push their way through the sand. Some float, many of them litter the bottom and they are too large to be sucked up with a gravel vac. This is one of my biggest regrets. I'm undecided if I will use MGOC on my 75g tank. Part of aquascaping is the ability to experiment with placement and soil does not lend itself to this. Also, i used only an inch of soil under an inch of sand and when planting stems, there are many parts of the substrate that no longer feel as if they have soil. It either dissolves through the sand, or plant roots move it around.

5) Pool Filter sand is great, but... there are commercial substrates/sand that look better (can pick the color) and don't cost a whole lot more. 

6) Need to know growth habits of plants! - I was given a ton of plant trimmings from a local enthusiast (thanks MD Guppy!) but didn't know how they would grow. One plant in particular created big problems for me. I was given something that was supposed to be a dwarf val which I used as a midground accent, but once it got established, it quickly grew to the top of the tank and spread like wildfire. I have to constantly pinch out its runners to keep it contained. (This val destroyed my Monte Carlo because it began growing up through it. ) Trimming it is challenging because you cant just chop the tops, those leaves will get covered in algae. It has completely taken over the middle of the tank, but I have kept it because the fish like hiding in it and removing it would be very difficult.

7) Stay on top of trimming! With high light comes great responsibility! Stems reach the top, block light to the leaves below. The top of the stems are getting probably 300+ PAR, the bottoms at this point are getting < 50 PAR. Its no surprise the bottoms start growing algae as the plant has no need for those leaves any more. In a high light tank with fast growing stems, need to be constantly topping and replanting. This ties into my point #2 and 3 above. A fixture mounted high above the tank will have more consistent par from substrate to water line which should foster more even growth.

8) Your tank is much smaller than you think it is! MD Guppy gave me a ton of great plants, probably 20-30 varieties, but the 50g tank is not nearly large enough to hold all of them. What did I do? I tried to keep as many as possible! Eventually, many of them which were doing well got thrown away because I had no where to put them, their growth habit was unexpected, or they kept getting out competed by neighboring plants.

9) Be consistent with ferts! Because I was raising keyhole fry, I was using minimal doses of EI to keep nitrates very low. I'm back to larger doses now but also dealing with several forms of algae.

10) 24/7 Co2 is a viable option without a pH controller. When using the solenoid, I found that I had to run 3bps for several hours before lights on to get to 30 ppm, and that by the end of the day, CO2 was 45-60ppm (close to pH drop of 2). I can keep the CO2 at 1bps, the level stays fixed at 30ppm, and I use the same total CO2. However, this only works without a ton of surface agitation; to add O2 I have been using a venturi. I realize that many people do not like tons of bubbles in their water. The best solution would be to have a pH controller. 

This tank was a great learning experience, but because of these reasons, I have decided to start over with a 75g. That thread is here:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1242145-chrisx-75g-sa-community-slow-build.html


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

The experience gained with that amount of plants will surely help when planning what goes in the 75G.

Still don't get the vals, blasted them with PAR and never over 4" tall.

None of us can grow everything!
The quantity I send to the trash during a trim can be extreme @ times.

Are you keeping the Buce???

What a snow day!>


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Maryland Guppy said:


> The experience gained with that amount of plants will surely help when planning what goes in the 75G.
> 
> Still don't get the vals, blasted them with PAR and never over 4" tall.
> 
> ...


Snow day!!

Yes, I'm keeping the Buce. Its still growing well, although now its tall enough (3") that leaves below are getting blocked and there is some BBA. I probably should have distributed it or propagated it, but I don't really know how. That log I tied those root pieces to is completely bursting with Buce. 

The val stayed compact for 2-3 months but then it exploded when it found the dirt. Maybe dwarf vals are the same species but grown under different conditions? It never melted on me. Now I can't kill it fast enough. I put a big piece of wood in front to limit its forward growth.

Do you have any pics of the purple AR in your tank? I'm curious what it looks like in yours and how you have it planted. Its a "problem" plant for me because after topping, it doesnt really grow until it roots, then it takes off. So I will top a good plant with 5" of clean leaves, replant it, but by the time it starts growing again, the older leaves start collecting algae. The leaves and growth rate seem healthy, but old leaves have green algae (which I've stopped fussing over, it doesn't look that bad.) Wish I could keep the entire stem attractive.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Did you ever catch the 4' heat sink I mentioned?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Did you ever catch the 4' heat sink I mentioned?


I did, but I want the lights to be evenly spread over the entire top. I'd rather stick with the 1" aluminum strips than a 4" bar in the middle. How much did you want for it anyway? Its possible I could use it some way.


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