# organic compost



## georgedodge (Jun 28, 2012)

do i HAVE to use top soil or potting mix could i get away wiv using organic compost? also whats the difference


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## gomesj (Dec 11, 2008)

You may have alot of organics in the compost like small undecayed twigs, leaves, Etc. and this could cause huge algae blooms. You could try to sift it through a screen to help reduce the organics. Do a search on mineralized top soil and you can perhaps modify this with organic compost.


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## georgedodge (Jun 28, 2012)

hi going to makke a substrate do i need organic topsoil or normal topsoil is this a silly question


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Soil is composed of many different things, but can be simplified:

The mineral fraction is sand, silt and clay. They were never alive. These are minerals of different particle sizes. Only clay is small enough to have cationic exchange capacity. Sand, silt and clay from some sources keeps on breaking down in the tank, but most soils do not. If you start with a certain ratio of sand:silt:clay, then you end up with that ratio as the tank matures. 

The organic fraction is stuff that came from plants or animals, such as garden compost. As these materials are broken down to very fine material they ultimately get so small they have some cationic exchange capacity. If you put organic matter under water it continues to decompose, unless the conditions are really extreme (peat bogs, for example). The decomposing organic matter releases many things into the water. The most common things are tannic and other organic acids (makes the water yellow to brown colored), CO2, and ammonia. 

To make a substrate:
I would start with soil that has very little organic matter, and what it has is so fine you can no longer identify it. Compost that is as fine as dust, or pretty much that size. 
Lots of sand and silt, some clay. 

If you have access to garden soil that has not had pesticides (herbicides, insecticides, other) here is a test that may help:

Put some soil in a straight sided jar. Put a piece of masking tape on the side of the jar and mark how much soil is in the jar. 
Add water and a bit of dish washer detergent. Not much, just a few drops. 
Shake a LOT. 
Set the jar down and time how fast the particles fall. Mark on the tape:
30 seconds. This is sand. 
2 minutes. This is silt.
2 hours. This is the coarser clay. 
overnight. This is a finer clay. 
See how cloudy the water still is. 

Here is how to interpret the results:
as much as 50% sand is pretty good. 
As much as 30% silt is pretty good. 
Up to 10% clay is OK, if it falls out of the water in 2 hours. 
If it takes overnight, you may still be able to work with this soil, but I would mineralize it first. These fine clay particles will cloud the water too easily. Mineralizing the soil may help them cling together and act more like larger particles. 
If the water in the jar is still cloudy after sitting overnight do not use this soil. It has colloidal clay. Soil particles that are so fine Brownian motion keeps them suspended. The aquarium would be hazy all the time. 

If there are floating particles this is organic matter. If the stuff is fine enough that you cannot tell where it came from (leaf, stick...) then that is best. You can screen the soil to remove larger particles, or pick them out by hand. 

I have heard of people starting a tank with garden compost. Well composted, to the point that it is still a bit fluffy, but you cannot tell what things started out as.


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## georgedodge (Jun 28, 2012)

this seems very complicated, i used organic compost but found out my tank had a leak so had to pull everything out, the compost smelt very anaerobic but surprisingly my shrimps stayed alive im guessing there would have been alot of ammonia in the aquarium.

i dont know if i could still use the organic compost again and use alot of plant roots to keep it oxygenated or would it be easier to use something like potting mix ive heard this uses dead plant matter so this may not get anaerobic? thanks


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## georgedodge (Jun 28, 2012)

```

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just tryig to find what will be best substrate for 55g thats in the post


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Well, each person finds what works best for their situation. However, I would avoid any product (home made or store bought) that is high in organic matter.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Another test you can do is take the compost and put it in a jar of water. Wait to see it turn anaerobic and test the water for ammonium/a.

As mentioned, it's best to mix the compost with sand and gravel or mineralize it. This is nothing new. I've done a high organic soil before. It didn't turn out well.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

georgedodge said:


> this seems very complicated....


It is NOT complicated at all. 

There is nothing wrong with using some compost. What is is most important is finding a balance between the substrate. filter, plants and animals.. As long as you have enough plants and filtration. to use the by products of the decomposing organics your tank will work. Look at my 'Toxic Ten' link on my sig. line.

I also think the Anaerobic Apocalypse is not unlike Chicken Little's falling sky. Go pull a Lilly from a pond and tell me what that smells like. :hihi: 

Yet, Lillys do very well in that substrate. I've not been to S.E. Asia but, I tend to think the muck that Crypts grow in smells every bit as nasty.


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## georgedodge (Jun 28, 2012)

mineralizing the soil ?


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## gomesj (Dec 11, 2008)

georgedodge said:


> mineralizing the soil ?


Do a search on here. Plenty of information.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

georgedodge said:


> mineralizing the soil ?


*START HERE:*

"Mineralizing the soil beforehand helps to speed the breakdown of organic materials in the soil. In turn the mineralized soil will help shorten the initial algae outbreak period that many aquarists experience when using a soil substrate. "

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=152027When 

To me this insures a baseline to work with. Then depending on the application I can add organic material in a controlled amount.

I've used dirt straight from my property but, I've owned my home for 27 years and I know the history go the dirt, always organic method has been used.

I usually buy garden top soil at the local HomeDepot 40#@ $1.17..... OR 1/2 a Quid for you Guv.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

DogFish said:


> .
> 
> I also think the Anaerobic Apocalypse is not unlike Chicken Little's falling sky. Go pull a Lilly from a pond and tell me what that smells like. :hihi:
> 
> Yet, Lillys do very well in that substrate. I've not been to S.E. Asia but, I tend to think the muck that Crypts grow in smells every bit as nasty.


an anaerobic tank matters to the fish living in it and you. Imagine having a stinky tank next to the couch. :icon_smil


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## georgedodge (Jun 28, 2012)

so i have my organic compost outside and are wetting it, then drying it to 'mineralize' it to break down organic materials i think when will it be ready to put in aquarium?


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Try talking to these guys.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=150555


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## georgedodge (Jun 28, 2012)

very interesting tank bigtom has there


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Diana said:


> Soil is composed of many different things, but can be simplified:
> 
> The mineral fraction is sand, silt and clay. They were never alive. These are minerals of different particle sizes. Only clay is small enough to have cationic exchange capacity. Sand, silt and clay from some sources keeps on breaking down in the tank, but most soils do not. If you start with a certain ratio of sand:silt:clay, then you end up with that ratio as the tank matures.
> 
> ...


Very good post. If this seems too complicated, I would recommend to start with a commercial substrate like Flourite or Eco-Complete. MTS is great for more advanced planted tankers. Using "compost" can be very risky if you don't know exactly what you are doing. What you dig out of a pond or lake might be nasty, but it still contains a lot of sand and other inorganic particles, and is very different from compost.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

mistergreen said:


> an anaerobic tank matters to the fish living in it and you. Imagine having a stinky tank next to the couch. :icon_smil


No argument cesspool level anaerobic activity isn't acceptable. I'm referring to the Paranoia that some have about minimal anaerobic activity in the substrate..


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

georgedodge said:


> so i have my organic compost outside and are wetting it, then drying it to 'mineralize' it to break down organic materials i think when will it be ready to put in aquarium?


Do 4-5 cycles. Allow it to completely dry out each time. when dry breach up the pc. as small as you can. I run mine through a screen. The end product will the consistency of fine silt and will have no oder.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*round and round*

This seems to run in a continious circle on the forums 
Organic content is bad and must be minimized!
Anaerobic conditions are bad!
*UGH!!*

truth, reality (whatever we choose to call it) should be extremes can be bad.

Loaded organic substrate using bagged, bought off the shelf ground up tree bark, Miracle Grow Organic Potting Mix.

The black blasting media I used in this tank is no different really than sand except the color. Both are small grain and inert.

I have several tanks done with it and this one is the simplest thread description on any of my setups. 

1 day change over. Switched from an established 20L to a new 29g tank. 
Flora and fauna same day. 7/17/2011
Marineland 280 HOB, single t8 15w bulb.

There are a minimum of risks doing it but risks none the less. Growth is extremely slow due to the extremely low light energy provided. 
(Plant types are limited without more light.) 
But adding more light can complicate things if keeping it simple is the goal and it was for me on this tank. I wanted a tank I could just walk by and feed the fish.

3 - 5g buckets were used and I kept all the things from the original set up wet in those buckets making the change. Every surface in the tank will hold bio film so I protected it and transferred that to the new tank.
The filter was dirty with 2 weeks use since the last cleaning.
Emptying the 20L I saved about 14g of tank water.










I placed a barrier ring of the black blasting media around the sides and front edge of the tank then added 1 1/2" of mud pudding. Miracle Grow Organic Potting Soil has cow manure listed on all the bags I've seen. Miracle Grow Organic Choice Potting Mix (exact wording on the label) has chicken waste added in the mix and has less tendency to spike parameters when first submerged. Setting up the tank dry is easily done also. Press the palm of your hand down firmly on the soil then gauge the depth of the layer. I recommend staying at 2"or less on the soil thickness.










Capped the dirt with 1 to 1.5" of capping material then added about 4" of water to the tank from the buckets and planted it. Followed with all the water remaining in my buckets except for enough to hold the fish. Topped off the tank with new water, matched temperature to the bucket and transferred the fish back in. 
2 adult angels, 2 albino cory, 2 LFBN.


































7/22/2011 I did a 50% WC to reduce tannins released by the soil.
8/22/2011 another 50% WC to reduce tannins. Never saw NO2 or NH3/NH4 on a water test. The filter was cleaned for the first time after this water change.

Pictures taken for the last thread update and the tank has never been trimmed. Growth is very slow but the plants are healthy.


















Plants included are Java Fern, Java Moss, Subwassertang, various Crypts and anubias. I do not fertilize this tank in any way.
Dwarf sag would do very well also but I didn't want it in this tank.

Sand capping is not a problem. Setting up a tank wrong is.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*'anaerobic' is always bad?*

'anaerobic' is always bad? 

Very broad statements create confusion (imo).

Avoided on the forums but consistently reported and supported as fact;
All substrate containing aquariums will have anaerobic conditions present.
Anaerobic bacteria are part of the nitrogen cycle aiding in biological balance and the last part of the nitrogen cycle chain of bacteria.

First, it must be accepted that anaerobic bacteria is always present. (Even in the gut of our fish but that is another topic.)

Only a couple documented freshwater bacteria routinely release sulfur / acid compounds based on several published papers. The remaining strains, the vast majority (numbering in the hundreds), of anaerobic bacteria only do so when presented with a lack of food (NO3). Most die without any cumulative effect. Changes in the bacter food source is the cause of this shift to sulfate production and release not disturbance alone. Normally produced is the splitting of nitrogen and O2 (oxygen).

The presence of anaerobic bacteria is almost impossible to avoid except in bare tanks with positive flow sponge filters. These systems only have the first half of the nitrogen cycle in place and are dependent solely on water changes to remove all remaining waste products. Adding plants and substrate it's an entirely different game being played in system maintenance.

Anaerobic bacteria and the production of sulfides along with acids seems to always be reported in 3 ways;
Hobbyists repeating what they have heard or read with the majority being short on facts.
Those selling products inciting fears to help do so.
Scientific study papers which are very hard for most to read. (boring and chewy)

Almost anything can be stated as toxic above a threshold limit and allowed to become imbalanced.
Controlling anaerobic conditions in a nutrient rich substrate is absolutely possible. Anaerobic bacteria factor directly into natural planted tank keeping (Walstad published method) and ages old filter systems.

Conscientious Aquarist Magazine / Seachem published copyright 2010.
Freshwater Deep Sand Beds Work by Deirdre Kylie
closing excerpt;
While some tales of anaerobic disasters surely are true, bubbles from the substrate rise too quickly and have too little surface area to sufficiently contaminate even a small tank. It’s more likely that dissolved gases and toxins from anaerobic decay were released into the water column when they were disrupted by the fishkeeper. Bubbles percolating up through the sand leave it to harmlessly close up behind them without even mixing much - this phenomenon can easily be observed in bubbles which form against the glass because the anaerobic sand is black and contrasts with the oxygenated sand.

Important Acknowledgement
Though my tanks are not Walstad tanks, they are inspired and informed by Diana Walstad’s method and information as presented in her wonderful book, "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium." I suggest that book as a great source of information about nutrients, bacteria, lighting, etc., comprehensible to the layperson. Without it, I might have red and blue epoxy covered gravel, plastic plants, some overcrowded goldfish, and little enthusiasm for the hobby.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_7/volume_7_1/dsb.html

I absolutely agree with all these statements.
Rex Grigg's planted tank guide, D.Walstad's book, George & Karla Booth (thekrib.com) are the primary source reference for my aquarium knowledge. Expanded with experience and further reading on topics of my interest.

Anaerobic bacteria feed on nitrates not ammonia and nitrites.
Good flow and circulation through the layers of substrate will maintain imbalance but WILL NOT eliminate all anaerobic forms of bacteria nor should you want it too.

Hobby related links
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/f...99-Anaerobic-Bacteria-in-Freshwater-Aquariums
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?221079-Why-Water-Changes-The-Long-Answer
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/bacteria-freshwater-aquarium-74891/
(luv this site on a range of tanking topics)
http://sites.google.com/site/moashowmanyfish/nitrogen-cycle-a-must-for-freshwater-aquarists
Remaining Wastes topic
http://sites.google.com/site/moashowmanyfish/why-are-water-changes-necessary

Published study
http://horizon.documentation.ird.fr/exl-doc/pleins_textes/pleins_textes_5/b_fdi_20-21/26560.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC169723/

Link list "anaerobic bacteria + freshwater" Scholar search all articles and patents.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q...reshwater&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

is what it is :smile: I consider myself a baby on the topic of bacteria but gassing substrate doesn't scare me anymore.


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## nonconductive (Jan 29, 2010)

high organics and anerobic activity in the substrate is bad? someone better tell that to my tank thats been setup atleast 2 years...... 









seriously, has anyone not ever been to a pond?

Its 2012 people, wake up for pete's sake.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

nonconductive said:


> ....
> seriously, has anyone not ever been to a pond?,,.



roud: _*THANK YOU !!!*_

Nice tank!! ~ Needs snails 
:hihi:


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## nonconductive (Jan 29, 2010)

I don't get it. I've collected plants THRIVING in the nastiest, stinkiest, funkiest muck you could imagine... and guess what, there were fish.... and they were alive..... and breeding.


thanks! hteres actually a ton of mts and some ramshorns. though i think the red claws are picking off the ramshorns.


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## georgedodge (Jun 28, 2012)

wow, look at how much attention my thread has caused ,


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## georgedodge (Jun 28, 2012)

and sorry whats silt


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Silt -Is very fine dirt the consistantcy of powder or baking f;our.


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## m8e (Oct 16, 2009)

clay<silt<sand<gravel


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## georgedodge (Jun 28, 2012)

so compost has clay in it too at least some clay


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Compost is decaying plant/organic materials.


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## georgedodge (Jun 28, 2012)

oh yea i knew tthat


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## georgedodge (Jun 28, 2012)

will compost make the water brown wiv tannins compared to topsoil


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

Nonconductive, I doubt very much if your substrate in completely anaerobic, or nothing would grow. There is a big difference between anaerobic pockets, spots, and a completely anaerobic substrate.



> Compost is decaying plant/organic materials


Exactly. And organic is remnants of once living tissue. Feces, plant material, body parts, etc. are organic material. Rocks, sand, clay, minerals, shells, are not
organic material.

Soil is a mixture of organic material and mineral rock content. Top soil is mostly material from leaf/plant matter and manure. Sub soil or loam is mostly rock/mineral material. If you go into a grass field, or a forest floor, and dig a hole, underneath the top soil you will eventually hit clay or loam. The deeper you go, the less organic soil content



> will compost make the water brown wiv tannins compared to topsoil


Compost and soil is more or less the same thing, it just depends on what type of plants are used to make the compost. You can buy straight mushroom compost. Has anyone here ever made a compost pile..a true outdoor garden compost? What you use for composting will determine the nutrient content, tannin content and so forth. All composting creates methane gas as it decomposes. Topsoil is broken down compost and manure.



> truth, reality (whatever we choose to call it) should be extremes can be bad.


I absolutely agree with you, but some people here have a very wide definition of what extreme is and what an acceptable risk is, and really push the limits. How much organics is too much? How much soil is too much? Is the use of manure in any amount extreme and worth the risk? I have talked to several well known people who have used soil in the aquarium extensively and asked them if they would ever put any kind of animal feces in their aquarium, and when they stopped laughing the answer was always NO.

Besides the issue of anaerobic dead spots, gas, and so forth, the biggest issue for me has always been its real practical effectiveness and longevity. Any kind of organic soil in a small confined space has a relatively short lifespan. It is impossible to measure with any certainty how long the soil continues to provide nutrients. Wkndracer, few months back you bought every mineral fertilizer tablet I had left, what was it, 50 or 100? It seems everyone that uses soil also ends up adding fert tablets to the substrate, or ferts to the water. As the aquarium ages, it creates it own fertilizer, so what is really the big advantage of using soil in the first place? First six months it is probably at its peak.

Dianas approach is more traditional when using soil in the aquarium. Her mix is low organic to high mineral content soil. That is much safer than using a soil that is pure organic or high in manure, or heaven forbid pure manure. That is not extreme. Dianas approach also is closer to the methods discussed on the KRIB. All those old krib articles are about using sub soil instead of top soil and warn to stay away from high organics. George Booth always used laterite.


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## m8e (Oct 16, 2009)

Robert H said:


> Compost and soil is more or less the same thing, it just depends on what type of plants are used to make the compost.


There is also some other differences. Like how old and how broken down the material is. The organic matter in soil is mostly humus and have reached a stable state where it doesn't break down. If that is used in a tank it will likely break down slowly. Depending on how _fresh_ the compost is it might break down to fast.

Compost is also pretty much filled with cations(and anions), the CEC is _maxed out_. While in humus much of these ferts might have been used up by grass, trees and other plants.

I have used soil with 90% organic matter(sphagnum peat moss) without killing any fauna. There is really no such thing as to much organic material, *the problem is to much of the wrong organic material*.


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## georgedodge (Jun 28, 2012)

can some one inform me, compost breaking down what is this and how long does it take


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

George. It takes 6 months to a year for the compost to breakdown. It depends on the what's in it, what the weather is etc. A good healthy population of worms helps a lot.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

BruceF said:


> George. It takes 6 months to a year for the compost to breakdown. It depends on the what's in it, what the weather is etc. A good healthy population of worms helps a lot.


To help clarufy: 

From green plant material , dried leaves, Veggie table scrapes, manure ets, it can take about 6mos to turn 'Fresh' compost mix inti a 'finished' compost to use in gardening.


30days or so into the process the 'HOT' or actively decaying compost can be to strong to use in some applications.

The speed in that thew process goes is based on moisture & heat. In my 4' cute compost bin I have steam coming off in early spring & late fall die to the bacterial activity.

Finished compost can be further refined buy the Mineralization process.


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## georgedodge (Jun 28, 2012)

and mineralization is ? heck ill look it up


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## georgedodge (Jun 28, 2012)

also my compost has bark and twigs in it , this matter?


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

georgedodge said:


> and mineralization is ? heck ill look it up


Link on post #12.... You are reading the thread? Right??


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## georgedodge (Jun 28, 2012)

yea sorry i am, just abit slow


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Bark and sticks take longer to compost. 

It takes bacteria, fungi and small organisms to break down organic matter into finished compost. They only work on the surface of the material. If the material is spongy or hollow it has an interior surface that can let the decomposers get to work faster, but a solid chunk of wood pretty much has only an outside surface. Not a lot of surface area. 
The finer the material you start with the faster it will compost. Small pieces of something have a lot more surface area than a single large chunk of the same stuff. 

The process goes best if there is a balance of green matter (lawn clippings, green weeds, trimmings from soft plants, kitchen waste) and harder material (wood, bark, sticks), but this material is best if it is ground or chipped smaller. Put a whole branch in the compost bin and you will pull out the whole branch in 6 months. Put that branch through a chipper and it will be decomposed into nice rich compost. The green material supplies nitrogen. The woody material supplies carbon. 

'Sand, silt and clay' are official terms used by soil scientists that describe particle size in soils. I do not know if they are international terms. The test I posted earlier is a modification of one done by soil scientists when they are gathering more info about the soil. 
'Loam' is a more variable term, but used by a soil scientist it describes certain blends of sand, silt and clay. Used by the layman, it means nice soil. Easy to dig or rototill. Good for growing things. 
'Top soil' has no real meaning. Just whatever soil was at the top of a site. 
The A layer is the soil that has been near the surface for the longest and has been exposed to decomposing leaves, roots, and so on, and has the highest level of live organisms from bacteria and fungi to worms and gophers and even larger animals. This is the material often called Topsoil. 
The B layer is right under the A layer. It is usually still soil, but has less oxygen, less organic matter (though large tree roots may be found here) and less microbial activity. 
Under that may be bedrock, or various materials that might be permeable or impermeable. A particular site might have very deep soil layers, or very shallow layers. A river valley usually has a very deep A layer, and you might never actually dig deep enough to find a B layer. 
The side of a mountain might only have odd pockets of an A layer where it gets trapped where it cannot wash away. What you see might be more B layer that has been exposed by the A layer getting washed away, or the C layer (exposed rocks)

Around here the developers often bull dose hills into shapes that work for streets and houses, cutting into the subsoil and pushing the top soil around wherever they want. Then I get called in to landscape the place, and the client does not always believe the amount of work it takes to turn their B layer soil into the rich, productive soil that land plants thrive in. Even digging holes for fences and trees can be a problem. On more than one job site I have run into bedrock. Cannot dig into that!


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Robert H said:


> I absolutely agree with you, but some people here have a very wide definition of what extreme is and what an acceptable risk is, and really push the limits. How much organics is too much? How much soil is too much? Is the use of manure in any amount extreme and worth the risk? I have talked to several well known people who have used soil in the aquarium extensively and asked them if they would ever put any kind of animal feces in their aquarium, and when they stopped laughing the answer was always NO.
> 
> Besides the issue of anaerobic dead spots, gas, and so forth, the biggest issue for me has always been its real practical effectiveness and longevity. Any kind of organic soil in a small confined space has a relatively short lifespan. It is impossible to measure with any certainty how long the soil continues to provide nutrients. Wkndracer, few months back you bought every mineral fertilizer tablet I had left, what was it, 50 or 100? It seems everyone that uses soil also ends up adding fert tablets to the substrate, or ferts to the water. As the aquarium ages, it creates it own fertilizer, so what is really the big advantage of using soil in the first place? First six months it is probably at its peak.
> 
> Dianas approach is more traditional when using soil in the aquarium. Her mix is low organic to high mineral content soil. That is much safer than using a soil that is pure organic or high in manure, or heaven forbid pure manure. That is not extreme. Dianas approach also is closer to the methods discussed on the KRIB. All those old krib articles are about using sub soil instead of top soil and warn to stay away from high organics. George Booth always used laterite.


I think it end up being 150 tabs from you. I've also acquired 2 cases of WonderGro Root+ from an overseas source. That's all being used with inert substrates. 

Thinking the Diana you're referring to is the one that's on my favorite authors list for aquarium topics being Diana Walstad. Funny also that you mentioned the KRIB too along with George Booth who kindly replied to an email a couple years ago when I setup my first sump for freshwater. None of this is new or ground breaking. The first dirt tanker was a Caveman (pre GEICO LOL)

Light and demand can change things but using 1-2" of MGOCPM lasts as a plant food source for a very long time. 
_*MUCH*_ longer than 6 months even if used under high light, CO2 injected, high demand conditions. (Been there, done that too.)
Posting my 55g, simple, unassuming tank. 
My oldest and now it's in the marathon catagory. I have other things to do with this foot print but it remains untouched now because of posts exactly like this one. Posting the last photo currently taken right after a trim on a Med light tank first loaded (wet) 4/30/2009.
This tank has trace dosing added with water changes (sometimes) and the water changes are not frequent. 
Fertilized by substrate and fish, fish food only. Growth slowed somewhat after about 18 months but is stable and predictable. 
Lighting, unused heater, power head and sponge only also .
I don't feel it can be "overrated" because it has worked consistently for to many people. 










Mileage can vary but if issues start in only 6 months you have another problem in my opinion. Organics are stored reserves, how long it will last again depends on the demand but NONE of mine have stumbled in only 6 months.


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## larcat (Jul 27, 2011)

I've got buttloads of vermicompost in all my tanks.

Everything is happy. Plants, shrimp, whatever.

I've even got 3.5 inches of MTS ontop of about .75 inch of vermicompost in one tank, with a half inch gravel cap. Crypts love it.

Vermicompost is nice because it usually doesn't have twigs etc, and is mega-rich.


I'm also becoming a fan of blackworms living in my substrate. I've got a 12" cube that has been set up for a year with massive amounts of vermicompost, abotu 2.5-4 inches of total substrate, billions of black worms. Shrimp are breeding like crazy, so I'm guessing it isn't harmful....


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

m8e said:


> ....I have used soil with 90% organic matter(sphagnum peat moss) without killing any fauna. There is really no such thing as to much organic material, *the problem is to much of the wrong organic material*.


I while I basically agree, I would offer that the problem is *NOT* the _"wrong organic material"_ the problem is a system that is not in Balance.


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## georgedodge (Jun 28, 2012)

how long does it take for bark and twigs to stop releasing tannins or is it down to the organic materials releasing tannins


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

It can take from a few weeks to a few months depending on the amount of wood/twigs, type, volume of water changed.

Some leaves like Indian Almound, Oak or wood like Mopane are Heavy with tannins that turn the water brown. 

The mineralization process will help reduce if not eliminate the issue.

Also Carbon used in the filter will removed the tannin rich tea color from the water.


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## georgedodge (Jun 28, 2012)

thanks, dogfish, i went wiv organic compost so its probably just generic bark? thanks


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

georgedodge said:


> thanks, dogfish, i went wiv organic compost so its probably just generic bark? thanks


If you bought it, maybe the shop might know what's in it. Some shops may a include peat in the mix which will also 'Tea' the water.


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## georgedodge (Jun 28, 2012)

i think it was peat free, how long till i can fertilize the water, will the compost feed the plants for a awhile


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## georgedodge (Jun 28, 2012)

also what fertilizer nitrogen phosphate potassium, i read that too much nitrogen can turn leaves yellow, my rotala is very yellow thanks george


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