# DIY LED Build - 52g mbuna tank



## alexx_88 (Dec 18, 2017)

Hi,

I initially posted this on NanoReef, but Lingwendil suggested that this would be a more suitable forum for my project, so here I am.  

So, I have a Juwel 180l (200l now - 52g) mbuna tank (40" long, 17" wide, 20" deep) that's currently running the original T5 lighting (~100W) that came with it. My plan is to upgrade it to LED through a DIY project that will hopefully transform into something more. The aim is to create a unit that's upgrade-able and usable on a salt-water reef tank without a complete redesign. 

After spending countless hours reading as much as I could, I decided to get one of those cheap eBay LED lights, gut it and use it as housing. Second step is deciding which LEDs to run and how to arrange them. As I don't have a planted tank, PAR is not really an objective right now, my main focus being emphasizing the colors of the fish (yellow, orange, blue and purple), while being able to create something similar to a full day-cycle, simple weather effects and also have that blue dimmed light on during the night. With all that in mind, I was thinking of a fixture with 2 rows, 15 LEDs per row. I run 2 x 54W Juwel T5 bulbs now (Juwel HiLite Marine 14000K and Juwel HiLite Day - 8000K) so I definitely like colors that are more towards the cooler side of the spectrum, but as I said, would like for my light setup to be able to create different moments throughout the day and also some weather effects.

My selection so far would be:
- 15 x Neutral Whites (>90 CRI, 5700K)
- 5 x Warm Whites (low CCT for dusk and dawn effects)
- 5 x Royal Blues (for night lighting and the ability to make a cooler white)
- 5 x Blue

Any suggestions please?  Barring in mind what I said about wanting to upgrade to saltwater/reef in the future.

Thanks!


----------



## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

Welcome!

As mentioned on your other post, I would probably be inclined to leave out the royal blues, and replace them with cyan/turquoise LEDs. This may be tricky outside the US though, and you may have to grab some greens instead, unless you aren't opposed to purchasing from a US based supplier.

Here's a (fun) tool to play with different combinations-

SPECTRA

Just with the cool whites and blues (No royal) you should be around a 13000-16000k sort of look, which would be a decent starting point, and then add in the warm white as necessary to tune the color to your desires. This will bring you close to a 10000-11000k sort of look, with around 75 CRI. Adding 5 green LEDs to this brings the color temp down to 8600k, and 89CRI, which aint too bad.


> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> Cree XT-E CoolWhite (5000-8300K) [120°] x15
> Cree XT-E WarmWhite (2200-3700K) [120°] x5
> ...


Add some more green, and a few red, and you get a theoretical CRI of 99(!) with a color temp around 6940k. Not bad at all really, and some decent adjustability.



> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> Cree XT-E CoolWhite (5000-8300K) [120°] x15
> Cree XT-E WarmWhite (2200-3700K) [120°] x5
> ...






I assume you aren't too interested in growing plants in this rig? 



to upgrade to a reef fixture later on will require more forethought, but isn't impossible. A decent full-spectrum white freshwater rig now would work, and later on add a bank of royal blue and violet to fill it all in, but it sort of depends on how you wish to arrange the heatsinks (IE, single block sink, individual fixtures, etc) and what corals you intend to keep.

I'll do some more digging in a bit, just got to work.

Do you have a particular supplier in mind? That would help narrow down which emitters are available to you for getting it figured out.




(Paging jeffkrol!)


----------



## Kampo (Nov 3, 2015)

couple thought, 

I wouldn't gut a chinese fixture for housing there are better options out there. I'd look into a Stevesled HD heatsink they can be cut to fit your canopy this would run under 50 bucks and would handle enough power for even when you go reef.

look into cobs, I think thats the direction a lot of DIY has been trending, much more bang for buck and there are better options as far as spectrum going that way. lots of unique options such as the new Luxeon Freshfocus line (fresh fish is like the perfect freshwater cob on its own imo)


----------



## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

Kampo said:


> I wouldn't gut a chinese fixture for housing there are better options out there.


Agreed. 



Kampo said:


> look into cobs, I think thats the direction a lot of DIY has been trending, much more bang for buck and there are better options as far as spectrum going that way. lots of unique options such as the new Luxeon Freshfocus line (fresh fish is like the perfect freshwater cob on its own imo)


That's where I usually start, but it can be a little tricky for users outside the US. If he isn't growing plants even a handful of SunPlus cool whites from Steve'sLEDs would be a good start, unless he wants super high intensity, then some FreshFish CoBs would be perfect.


----------



## alexx_88 (Dec 18, 2017)

Great info, thanks! 

Based in Europe, so would prefer to order locally, have the week between Christmas and New year's free, that's when I want to start building it. 

Can source a heatsink around here as well, not sure how I'd make it fit my current hood, as its core is the t5 lighting g unit that I'm actually replacing. 

Can't post links due to my low post count, but it's a Juwel T5 unit, if you want to Google it.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Being in Europe.. consider a base of "fresh" fish" COBs..Should be fairly easily obtainable..
6500k 95 CRI-ish
Adequate blue/cyan
https://www.lumileds.com/products/cob-leds/luxeon-cob-with-freshfocus-technology

3 of them across 36" will be al the light you would ever need..
colors can be any brand actually. More for effects and adjustments..

You may or may not need blues depending on taste..
deep red/ww would make a good sunset/rise combo..
also check sourcing Luxeon for colors..

Sorry, kind of a Luxeon snob..


----------



## alexx_88 (Dec 18, 2017)

Just had a look, the Luxeon seems like a beast! 4000lm / LED, makes it 12000lm for the whole tank just through those 3 LEDs. A bit worried about spotlighting, given that my hood sits just 10cm above water level. Just checked and I can source them from Mouser, so at least that's no problem.

Would probably throw some deep reds in there and some blues for the moonlighting. What I forgot to mention is that I'm a software/embedded engineer and would love to get my teeth into designing and building a more advanced control module, with individual channels, weather effects, vary color temperature from my phone etc. I'm worried about locking myself into a certain color temperature and having to add lots of 'colored' LEDs to offset those COBs.


----------



## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

Some deep reds and regular blues would be a nice addition for tuning things, as would maybe a couple warm whites or amber too, depending on how much adjustment you want. Since you are more concerned with coloration than growing anything you can play around a little.

Embedded engineer huh? Figure out a way to get us a nice simple internet router style website (connect to network, login, and configure) that will work with a cheap ESP8266 Wemos D1 type of board that has similar functionality to the Bluefish Mini. It would be very handy for such builds!


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Well you "think" you want all that.. 

Practical experience is most will lock in a look and be done w/ it..

here is a fun chip to pair w/ the ff...
https://www.rapidled.com/citizen-amber-cob-clu048-1212c4-22al1k3/




> SKU : CLU048-1212C4-22AL1K3
> CCT : 2200
> CRI : 65
> Typical Forward Voltage : 34.6V
> ...


https://www.rapidled.com/citizen-amber-cob-clu048-1212c4-22al1k3/
Phosphor corrected COB.
so 2200k to 6500k w/ little loss in power (considering the outputs 50/50 @ 5480K approx...)

now it would be expensive..($40/"set" and using nowhere near potential)

moonlight and asst effects could be done w/ 3=3W RGB ind. wired stars...since k correction is now done by COB's
(personal choice would be ... deep red/cyan/(reg. blue, rb, violet.. flip a coin)

Nothing here is considering "economics".................

mouser lumiled "amber"..

L2C5-22901205E1300 

BEST match for the ff (opinion)
L2C5-22901203E0900

SADLY min purchase is 100 at Mouser
Larger COB w/ 90CRI:
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetai...p4cpX9kQ0JZ8K/6l%2b3VRowQCrNH3pRXdRJR05Pw9ROu

$129/ 3 sets of 2200/6500)..............

Oh, recommend not worrying about sw upgrade.. spectrum "needs" change daily.. from adding UV (<400nm), IR(>800nm) and even greens..
Fresh fish will always be useable for both..well all will but at mostly very low drive currents (dimming)

now still contemplating your width w/ COB's... 

@8" you get about a 28" spread...so no problem.. 
7" off the water line should be a fairly good sweet spot..

Problem w" bars" occur at 3-4" off water line..

BTW: In case you are wondering..COB's alone will probably be 3x your current light.....

180W of directional LED's at 900mA
and looks like "red meat" pared w/ "fresh fish" would be interesting..


----------



## Kampo (Nov 3, 2015)

I think a really nice setup 3 fresh fish 1208s for your main whites. Then add in a 3watt royal blue next to each fresh fish and a 3 watt warm white. 3 channels total would give you adjust mentioned from 3k to 8k which is about perfect for sunrise sunset and moonlighting.

Not as nice of a cob but cheaper and dimmer is a vero10 or 13. Can get it in a 5k 90cri the blue should raise the temp to a higher level fine.


----------



## alexx_88 (Dec 18, 2017)

Lingwendil said:


> Embedded engineer huh? Figure out a way to get us a nice simple internet router style website (connect to network, login, and configure) that will work with a cheap ESP8266 Wemos D1 type of board that has similar functionality to the Bluefish Mini. It would be very handy for such builds!


That's the plan!

Bump:



jeffkrol said:


> Well you "think" you want all that..
> 
> Practical experience is most will lock in a look and be done w/ it..
> 
> ...


I'm not ignoring advice, just trying to make sense of it all. It seems that, by getting the FF COBs, there are some compromises to be made just for the convenience of having a very high CRI from just 3 LEDs. 

PROs:
- High CRI out of the box
- Ease of wiring

CONs:
- Spotlighting at current height (10 cm - 4"), so would have to find a way to lift it
- Unused power as most combos will stay dimmed
- If running them at full power, then I need bigger assisting LEDs for effects, especially if aiming to raise the color temperature (CCT now is around 11K)



Kampo said:


> I think a really nice setup 3 fresh fish 1208s for your main whites. Then add in a 3watt royal blue next to each fresh fish and a 3 watt warm white. 3 channels total would give you adjust mentioned from 3k to 8k which is about perfect for sunrise sunset and moonlighting.
> 
> Not as nice of a cob but cheaper and dimmer is a vero10 or 13. Can get it in a 5k 90cri the blue should raise the temp to a higher level fine.


As above, I'd like to be able to go up to at least the current color temperature (11K). I really like the blues popping, even though that color combination doesn't yield the best CRI.


----------



## Kampo (Nov 3, 2015)

1 3watt royal blue would make a freshfish running at 50% 11kish, running at full out 8kish. 

the spread issues isn't as bad as you really think. at 5 inches the spread is 18in almost. 6inches 20. you will have full spread only an inch or so into the water column.

Bump: 1 3watt royal blue would make a freshfish running at 50% 11kish, running at full out 8kish. 

the spread issues isn't as bad as you really think. at 5 inches the spread is 18in almost. 6inches 20. you will have full spread only an inch or so into the water column.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

alexx_88 said:


> CONs:
> - Spotlighting at current height (10 cm - 4"), so would have to find a way to lift it
> - Unused power as most combos will stay dimmed
> - If running them at full power, then I need bigger assisting LEDs for effects, especially if aiming to raise the color temperature (CCT now is around 11K)
> ...


sorry, somewhere screwed up the cm conversion or mis-read..
Not sure you can find them on stars but Luxeon sunplus cool white is basically the same as fresh fish,,

2 rows 3" apart..

If you are "stuck" w/ mouser.. suggest these as base units
941-CXB13040C0BC465E
Mfr. #:
CXB1304-0000-000C0BC465E 

Listed 10W but at 400mA and 9V only 3.6

Will require more drivers than usual w/ 3W chips probably..
Deficient in the 470-500nm range..
Best to fill in w/ blue/cyans..
@ 70CRI will prob. be noticeably yellowish even at 6500k

8:2 cw/reg. blue
4:3:1 ww/deep red/cyan


----------



## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

Well, 1x XT-E Royal, 3x XP-G Blue, and 1x Fresh Fish will put you at 78 CRI and 9800K if you run the FreshFish at rated current. Dimming the Fresh Fish down by half will yield 15380K and 62 CRI, and shouldn't look too bad if you like a heavy blue look. If you order stateside you can do this with the three blues on a single star board from StevesLEDs with connected wiring, and have the emitters very tightly clustered, and then use a sheet of acrylic diffuser material, or scuff some glass or plexi with fine sandpaper to accomplish the same thing. Not sure if anybody in europe does the custom 3-up boards yet with different colors, but even if using individual emitters this will work very well. Add a deep red or warm white for sunrise/sunset effect and color tuning if you wish.

You could use the 5600k 90CRI Vero 10 instead of the Fresh fish, and add in another blue, maybe a green (preferably cyan) and get pretty close for less cash.


How many channels of control do you want? Just white, blue, and a warm channel of some sort?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...mGuideFW.pdf&usg=AOvVaw35KVxy3jk99kZeDYNzoVC7

The above pdf gives you some hints to colors/effects..

Personally I always drift to things like this so I have to be careful about others preferences..
Just for fun........... 










NOTE: Doesn't mean you can't have both though...


----------



## alexx_88 (Dec 18, 2017)

I see the light now, with the FF, pun intended 

Must admit that only when I started seriously playing with Spectra, then I realized how powerful they are. Like the perfect base to start anything from. So I already have 3 of them in my Mouser basket, thanks for the patience guys. 

Now, as for the companion LEDs, I'm thinking:
Chan 1: 3 x 30W Fresh Fish 1208 (6500K)
Chan 2: 9 x 3W Cree Warm White 
Chan 3: 6 x 1W Cyan + 6 x 1W Royal Blue (still thinking about the distribution here)

Morning starts with the warm whites alone and, as the day progresses, the fresh fish ramps up and the warm whites subside. I may add a touch of blue for daylight, depending on what I see during testing. Warm whites start kicking in towards the afternoon for the sunset and I use the blues for moonlighting. 

Thoughts?  Want to place the order tomorrow morning (about 8hrs from now).

Thanks!
Alex


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Cyan is VERY eye visible.. might want to do RB(6) /Cyan(3)/reg blue(3) 

actually consider a separate channel for the cyan
cyan/deep red/blue = whitish.. 
and one for the deep red.. 

Really miss the deep red on my 55..it is a taste thing though..

40B (ww,660nm red):









5 channels.. Standard R(s)/G(ish)/B(>cyan)/ww/cw


----------



## alexx_88 (Dec 18, 2017)

That wouldn't be a huge problem, so:

Chan 1: 3 x 30W Fresh Fish 1208 (6500K)
Chan 2: 9 x 3W Cree Warm White 
Chan 3: 3 x 1W Blue + 6 x 1W Royal Blue
Chan 4: 3 x 1W Cyan
Chan 5: Deep Reds. How many?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

alexx_88 said:


> That wouldn't be a huge problem, so:
> 
> Chan 1: 3 x 30W Fresh Fish 1208 (6500K)
> Chan 2: 9 x 3W Cree Warm White
> ...


Oddly depends on the driver.. V(f) of reds is sub 3V .. like 2.4.. so 3 =7.2V 
Ldd-h's will go 2-52V so they are good..

Obviously when the primary's are full or close you won't (shouldn't) notice any toning..more for effects and spectrum fill..
One per ff is fine.. More would be your choice..If normal 6500k's I'd recommend more..(see 7000k/660nm Finnex'es for an example..non-blue model)


----------



## alexx_88 (Dec 18, 2017)

Ok, final setup check before ordering:

- 3 x FF COBs https://ro.mouser.com/ProductDetail/997-L2C5FS001208E15 
- 6 x Cree 2700K WW https://ro.mouser.com/productdetail...4Prknbu83y6gBWitgFwb/cybBPUsvHvMHGMseaoVOHg== (driven at 700mA for 6W per LED)
- 6 x Cree Royal Blue https://www.led-tech.de/en/High-Pow...-Blue-PlugundLight-Star--LT-2877_120_138.html
- 3 x Regular Blue https://www.led-tech.de/en/High-Pow...P-E2-M3-Blue-on-Star-PCB-LT-2209_120_138.html
- 3 x Cyan (couldn't find these in Europe on a star PCB, ok to replace with green)?
- 6 x Deep Red https://www.led-tech.de/en/High-Pow...E2-P3/P4-Red-on-Star-PCB-LT-2495_120_138.html

Depending on the delivery times from Mouser, I have two options for the housing:
- Quick delivery: Simple alu heatsink [Ebay Link Removed] Deep Aluminium LED Cooling Heatsink (100, 200, 240, 300, 600, 900,1200mm) | eBay[/url]), fan, hanging kit and DIY splashguard
- Slow delivery: HD Heatsink or https://www.ledsupply.com/led-heatsinks/makersheatsink-slim


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

green for cyan.. Not ideal.. kind of what takes it from DIY to mainstream.
since it isn't critical and you are ebaying.. none there?
eekbay UK has some but waaayy too expensive:
Philips Luxeon Rebel Cyan LED LXML PE01 Lumileds
I know.. an obsession..
None of the colors really need to be quality chips as long as your par producers are (cw/ww)
Cheap whites, for me, have always been problematic while colors just keep on ticking..
That said cyan not critical.......... 

As to heatsinks.. Only recommendation:
If going passive cooling:
Black anodized and larger fins w/ wider spacing vs smaller fins w/ narrow spacing.

Makers are "cadillac" heat sinks.. Can't go wrong but very pricey..
Chinese knock offs are fine..
for cheap heatsinks leds will be "glued" rather than screwed unless you want to tap it (NO fun trust me)
Surface area is most critical factor followed by mass followed by material (re: Al alloys in most cases.. copper would beat AL)


----------



## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

I like the look of that heatsink from steves, and so long as you aren't running "full blast" I think it should be fine. I would be inclined to point a couple PC fans at it for good measure though... Steve's also carries the Cyan LEDs if you decide to order from them. If you go this option buy the rest of your LEDs from him, since you would be paying shipping cost anyway... FWIW Steve's is my preferred LED supplier for anything other than COB types, which I buy from DIgiKey.

The Maker's slim heatsinks are pretty nice, and same thing as far as cooling, they should work as long as you aren't running at high current. I always err on the side of caution, and like to keep future expansion in mind, so I would personally go for something larger/more deeply finned, or for something that features a fan. The full featured MakersLED heatsinks are very versatile and I really like the 6" one on my nano, I just wish they made them in black. They also carry the Cyan LEDs, but they are about ~8$ each.

I had to do a search on that eBay listing (this forum filters eBay links) and while it would probably be fine, it's pretty thin, and would make you have to either drill/tap, use adhesive pads, or thermal epoxy/plaster. Personally the Steve's and Makers are a bit easier to work with, and will be easier to use. It doesn't sound like a big deal, but trust me, after having assembled piles of fixtures, you really appreciate user friendly stuff like screw channels and T-slots!




While not really applicable to you directly due to them only coming in a 12" and 20" size, here's my current favorite heatsink/enclosure, for anyone browsing the thread and contemplating something similar-

https://www.rapidled.com/premium-enclosures/





























Shipping would probably be horrendous, and you would need _three_, but these are cool fixtures. I just wish they did them in a 36", and a 48" option. I've got a 20" on my 20 gallon long Reef, and it is a really nice option, just wish they came in more sizes.


----------



## alexx_88 (Dec 18, 2017)

Ended up buying this http://www.satisled.com/w16-series-led-aquarium-light-housing-set-40608090100120150cm_p1916.html but from an European eBay seller. Was set on the makersled or Steve's, but shipping was 120$. Extreme. Just need to figure out a way to improve its heat dissipation, either mount a heatsink or a fan. Will figure it out. 

Now looking for led drivers, meanwhell looks like a good solution.


----------



## Kampo (Nov 3, 2015)

Those heatsinks look nice for a lower wattage light. Looking forward to see how it turns out.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

alexx_88 said:


> Ended up buying this Discount China Wholesale W16 Series LED Aquarium Light Housing Set (40/60/80/90/100/120/150cm) [LAL-W16]- US$29.99 - SatisLED Store,Wholesale China LED Lamps, Power LED, LED Strips, LED Floodlights, LED Tubes, LED Spotlights, LED Downlights, LED Aqua but from an European eBay seller. Was set on the makersled or Steve's, but shipping was 120$. Extreme. Just need to figure out a way to improve its heat dissipation, either mount a heatsink or a fan. Will figure it out.
> 
> Now looking for led drivers, meanwhell looks like a good solution.


Yea.. nice find.. Decent pricing.
So they figure 1W/cm...

Only thing "I" would correct.. 
Needs some standoffs or something to change height..
Easy enough mod (see I can't leave well enough alone)

Of course one could skip the legs and hang but such nice legs..

no height distance measurement..looks 3-4" off the glass rim..


----------



## bud40oz (Dec 9, 2017)

just out of curiosity, how much invested into one of these diy lights like you have here?

then can you create a moon phase and sunsets? can you have total control over every aspect and create custom own layouts? do they ramp up and down?

can it replicate a south pacific island in real time with the same spectrums at whatever water depth you want to set it too?


do they last 6-7 years without fail?


----------



## alexx_88 (Dec 18, 2017)

I reckon mine will end up costing around 300$, imho, cheaper and better than the alternatives at the same money. I also plan to create a control board for it, customize it and keep adding features until I get bored.


----------



## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

bud40oz said:


> just out of curiosity, how much invested into one of these diy lights like you have here?
> 
> then can you create a moon phase and sunsets? can you have total control over every aspect and create custom own layouts? do they ramp up and down?
> 
> ...



All of those questions can easily be answered "yes" as long as it's built right. Also, it as expensive as you let it be  Most of the features (other than ramping up/down, the others are arguably gimmicks, but that's another discussion entirely) you mention are also easily written into a controller, or handled by an embedded solution like a bluefish mini, or storm, or a homebrew ESP8266 based controller.

I don't want to continue threadcrapping all up in OP's thread, so perhaps this is a post that is best put into its own thread? Too broad of a set of questions.

And yes, I personally have fixtures that I've put together that have been running continuously for 5-6 years without issues at all. quick hint- don't skimp on heatsinking for a high powered build, and add fans just to be safe. Never know when a heatwave will strike before your AC is serviced :icon_neut





alexx_88 said:


> I reckon mine will end up costing around 300$, imho, cheaper and better than the alternatives at the same money. I also plan to create a control board for it, customize it and keep adding features until I get bored.


Figured this would get some smiles from you, I've got two of these coming from him soon, should be an excellent base for control-

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/20-diy/1222762-my-attempt-professional-style-diy-light.html


----------



## alexx_88 (Dec 18, 2017)

Finally got a chance to spend a few hours on this. Did a mock-up on the bench to make sure everything works, then did a preliminary install of the 3 FF LEDs. They're... bright, very bright!  Even with them dimmed at about 30% (using the modded PWM Dimmer that I found on another thread), there's much more light than with the stock T5s. 

Next step is to plan the layout and buy an enclosure for the drivers, PSU and other electronics that will sit on top of this one. Hope to get everything installed and in its final position by the end of this week. I hope... 

Thanks again, your advice has been tremendous!

Alex


----------



## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

Looks nice!

How do you like the color of the light?


----------



## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

@jeffkrol

Why do you advocate the "fresh fish" COB vs the other ones in the series? Wouldn't the "produce" one be a good choice? Or for that matter any of the others? I'm sure they all have different looks, it would be nice to see a comparison between them.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

all the others are either "artificial" or too low in color temp for most people..

Certainly wouldn't hurt to add some red to the ff.. but it's mostly unnecessary..
In this thread it was just pure PAR and decent color..and relatively cheap price and easy to find..


----------



## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> all the others are either "artificial" or too low in color temp for most people..
> 
> Certainly wouldn't hurt to add some red to the ff.. but it's mostly unnecessary..
> In this thread it was just pure PAR and decent color..and relatively cheap price and easy to find..



I'm still a believer in the 3w array. I know what the specs say, the price, the CRI, but... I just keep thinking those COBs will have problems with shadows and spotlighting. I'm in the plannning stages of a new light for my 75g, and one of the goals is to have a broad and consistent spread across the entire top.

What I've learned from my original build is that with the light concentrated in the middle 3" of the tank, if a plant grows near the top, it will shade other plants and actually cause the tank to take a greenish tint as the light pierces the leaves. 

With a broader light source that will be much less of an issue, and the plants will be less likely to either grow towards the light or veer away from it as they reach the top. So I think growth will be straighter and more consistent. 

Have you used the COBs you recommend for a dutch style planted? I seem to remember you have a dense natural tank. Best "dutch" tanks on this forum seem to be 4-6 tubes covering the entire canopy.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

I consider to be more to cater to the common man.. 
COB's are very cheap and efficient..
5 pucks.. They should be raised higher btw..
Generally agree w/ you the ideal arrangement is lots of smaller emitters spread out over the entire tank surface..

www.qualiteitems.com/images/5pucks.JPG


----------



## alexx_88 (Dec 18, 2017)

Lingwendil said:


> Looks nice!
> 
> How do you like the color of the light?


Even in this very very early setup, it's still much better than the one I currently have. I can't wait to see what it will be able to do once all the other channels are installed as well. 

Alex


----------



## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

ChrisX said:


> I'm still a believer in the 3w array. I know what the specs say, the price, the CRI, but... I just keep thinking those COBs will have problems with shadows and spotlighting. I'm in the plannning stages of a new light for my 75g, and one of the goals is to have a broad and consistent spread across the entire top.


For smaller builds where a full-blown CoB would be mega-turbo overkill, I've been using these-

Luxeon SunPlus Cool White

Very similar to the fresh fish as far as spectral curve, and visually very, very nice. Pair them up with a 460nm blue for every 3-4 of them, a lime or warm/neutral white for tuning "the look" and maybe a violet to round out the lower end of the curve. I think jeffkrol has posted the graph before. I really like them.

Affordable enough to use as a base for a larger array, and wider angle than other LED's, which can reduce hotspots and in theory should help prevent the disco ball look.

On my 5.5 gallon testbed tank I run 3x sunplus CW, 1x blue, 1x 4k NW, 1x violet, and 1x 730nm "hyper red" and like it so much I'm probably going to scale it up for my 55 when I set it up. I just ordered 4x sunplus CW, 2x blue, 2x lime, 2x 4k NW for my 2.5 gallon, It'll need to be cranked way down but should give a great range of warm to cool white. Probably leaving out the red in the future, as I'm not convinced it's needed on a low tech setup where you don't have enough going on to justify maximum production going on.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Oh come on..  w/ "only" 4000k you need the red.. 




















> I think jeffkrol has posted the graph before


There is a difference, but so slight from the "fresh fish" that I'm not convinced it's not a "lot" or "size" variation from the fresh fish one..
could be wrong though..


----------



## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Lingwendil said:


> For smaller builds where a full-blown CoB would be mega-turbo overkill, I've been using these-
> 
> Luxeon SunPlus Cool White
> 
> ...


I'll check these out. How do they compare in output to a "typical" 3W star? (For instance 3.4fv @ 700mA) Does roughly twice the current translate to twice the output?

If so, they only double the LED cost from my last build (.50c epi leds).. From $30ish to 60ish. I may go this route for the 75.

Do you have a pic of your test tank?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

figure 58 cents/watt 1A current...
COBs run about 50 cents/watt (fresh fish)

One thing to consider is watt efficiency.. I would suspect you are lucky to get 75L/ watt w/ Epistars..
W/ quality 140L/ w

You have to factor in quality.. even if a guess.. It will make you feel better..
so.. roughly your $30/$60 is pretty accurate..
58 cents per watt but 2 x the watt efficiency 29/w = $1/chip (effective vs 50 cents/chip)
In other words, you can use 1/2 of the diode count vs Epistar..

note they do claim 100L/w but prob. only for the best bins.. What you get on eek bay??????
Would give you a factor of say.. 140/100 1.4 not 2..


----------



## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> figure 58 cents/watt 1A current...
> COBs run about 50 cents/watt (fresh fish)
> 
> One thing to consider is watt efficiency.. I would suspect you are lucky to get 75L/ watt w/ Epistars..
> ...


Its hard to say how good/bad the cheap epis are. Probably a good gauge of efficency is heat. An equivalent wattage of lights that are more efficient would generate less heat. Inefficient leds are going to create more heat, less light. 

I'd be willing to bet that they aren't as bad as you may think.

My current take is this: In my tank, the lights look good when everything is trimmed. What impacts color and growth more than anything else is shadows. When the stems grow towards the light, they quickly block the light and the tank takes a greenish cast. It not just when they are obviously blocking the light, but when they are medium height, they also are filtering the light. The taller they get, the greener the tank gets. (This suggests to me that for the best "look" color needs to be adjustable. Contents of the tank will affect the lighting, certain fish might pop with enhanced spectrums, etc... But that is another discussion...)

I am of the belief that having the leds distributed evenly across the top will provide more benefit than high CRI. With COBS there are going to be less leds, more spotlighting, poorer distribution. 

I'm absolutely not at a loss for PAR with the epis and the big surprise is that 9 months out, I've had only one LED failure (.50c), both AC drivers still chugging along. This is a ton of light and it did not cost much at all.

IMO, higher output lights like COBs and flood lights work best on nano tanks that only need a single point source light, or really deep tanks. I think relatively shallow tanks should use smaller leds. And because tank contents can drastically affect the appearance, color should be adjustable. Its not one size fits all.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Keep in mind th sunplus have 162 degree beam angle.. 
120 for the Epi's..

w my 40b light (first ALL the warm whites failed in under a year) I switched from cheap Ekk bay Epi's to cheap 
eek bay Luxeon Rebels (2x the cost of the Epis) and have never looked back.. Both visually and color wise a huge step up from the epis..
and zero failures.. That said just replaced one of the few remaining epis in cw.. prob 2 yrs old..

Just some anecdotal info..


----------



## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Keep in mind th sunplus have 162 degree beam angle..
> 120 for the Epi's..
> 
> w my 40b light (first ALL the warm whites failed in under a year) I switched from cheap Ekk bay Epi's to cheap
> ...


 @MarylandGuppy told me his warm whites failed too; I haven't lost a single WW.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Well since 1W and 3W is kind of arbitrary, my belief is they just mix them up..
1W driven like 3W won't last long..

W DIY and fifty cents each (or less) doesn't really matter much...


----------



## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Just checked the bay...luxeon rebel cool white have..70 cri? Is that a bad bin, a typo, or does it assume other colors in tandem? Not spending 2x as much for 70 cri.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Don't count on any of the eek bay diodes to have high CRI. That's what the cyan/red supplement is for..


----------



## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

I don't consider 70 high CRI... get up to 80, 85, 90, etc. The higher color temp you go the harder it gets to find high CRI. The 5000k Luxeon LEDs at Steve's LEDs are 85 CRI, and the Fresh fish are allegedly 95typ, so I would assume the sunplus cool white (6500k-ish) is in the ballpark of that area too, seeing that they may be the same phosphor recipe...

Gotta look at decent suppliers to get the nicer bins, Steve's LEDs is pretty good for this. The difference between 70CRI and 85~90 is very noticeable, colors look "better" for lack of a better term... 



And jeffkrol- I might need some red, but the neutral or warm whites will fit the look for this tank and cover that area enough for now. Not looking to get too crazy. I may add a couple deep red depending on how it looks. The plan is to have mostly floating plants and some java moss, it won't take much


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Yea was just mild ribbing..
My 40 starts out blood red (only 660's) then ww/ kick in.. Eventually RB,CW,Cyans boot, then ww ramps down a bit (high noon)w/ a bit more "cool" boost then the cw/rb/cy ramp down and gradually the ww till 660's are the only diodes on..and then.......................... gone.

Crazy stuff but fun.

now another point, though one has all this control.. once set usually becomes worthless.. 

Not like people should be flipping through color changes like a tv remote.. 

ON the 55 and the pucks it just goes 4000k(center) fade on, then the other 4 kick in fading up from center to edges and down from the edges to center till only the 4000k is on in the center..then fade to gone..

Like I said.. crazy stuff....

Never got into moonlight...

OH yea.. Real Rebels on "the calculator" is much higher than 70cri..
I suspect the Chinese eek bay ones are just rb Rebels w/ a 3rd party throwing phoshors/lens on..


----------



## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Lingwendil said:


> I don't consider 70 high CRI... get up to 80, 85, 90, etc. The higher color temp you go the harder it gets to find high CRI. The 5000k Luxeon LEDs at Steve's LEDs are 85 CRI, and the Fresh fish are allegedly 95typ, so I would assume the sunplus cool white (6500k-ish) is in the ballpark of that area too, seeing that they may be the same phosphor recipe...
> 
> Gotta look at decent suppliers to get the nicer bins, Steve's LEDs is pretty good for this. The difference between 70CRI and 85~90 is very noticeable, colors look "better" for lack of a better term...
> 
> ...


Thanks for this info. My next light for 75g tank will be based on the sunplus. At 1200mA, and higher efficiency, I'm "banking" on them being equivalent to 2x epi 3w @ 600mA. I would plan to have 30x over 75g standard, running them at some % of maximum with plenty of headroom. Does this sound about right?

Also, with greater beam angle, do they need optics? Do they shine out of the tank more?

On stevesled.com it says something like "these are not for primary light source.. they are a supplement". What is meant by this?


----------



## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

@alexx_88

Sorry to derail your thread with discussion of the SunPlus. How did this turn out? Do you have any pics to share?

Also, how did you mount the COBs to the heat sink?


----------

