# EI dosing- should I skip the Nitrates?



## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Hi I have a 20gal and a 10 gal tank- both planted. I've started using the EI method. I have low/med light and no CO2, so have been doing 1/3 the recommended dose (dosing once a week instead of 3 times). There are usually Nitrates in my tank- plenty of fishes- right now my 20 gal has 20ppm and the 10 gal has 5. Should I dose less of the KNO3? Does this mean I will have to test for nitrates every week, to know how much KNO3 to add? or is it okay if there's extra nitrate?

My other question is, I'm using tiny teaspoons- I have ones labelled dash, pinch, smidgen that equal 1/8, 1/16 and 1/32 respectively- but the dose for KH2PO4 on 10 gal too small to measure (my digital scale does g but not mg) so I thought I could dissolve 1/32tsp into 10ml of tank water, then dose half of that- 5ml. Just want to make sure I'm doing this accurately enough?

Thanks


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

If your tank is already showing 5-20 ppm NO3 from fish food, then it is likely that it also has a reasonable amount of P, and most traces, also. If you are going to back off the KNO3, then keep the ratio of KH2PO4 similar (ie: if you dose half as much KNO3, then also dose half as much KH2PO4, and half as much traces). 
Fish food is low in potassium and iron, though, so do not skimp of these. You might use some chelated iron instead of the full dose of traces. 
I use K2SO4 to supply the potassium that is lacking in fish food. I simply dose as much of this as I would have of KNO3. The formula is not exactly the same, but close enough.

Your idea about dissolving the KH2PO4 in water then dosing the right amount of water is good. You may need to vary the math to get just as much as you need, but that idea works. That is how I dose all the ferts. 

Put into the bottle a weeks worth of ferts for all my tanks. (and I have altered the recipe occasionally)
Add water and glut. (yup, I dose the gluteraldehyde when I dose the ferts.)
Dose each tank based on its size.
I make up 2 bottles for this, one for macros, one for micros.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Doesn't the nitrate come from fish poo? I didn't quite think I was overfeeding. That's just me being curious.

My plants were dying when I dosed half the micros, and turning yellow w/holes until I started giving K2SO4- now I've got the other two macros on hand I thought I should do the full dose since they were still looking a bit deficient. I guess I don't have enough fish load to supply the nutrients? Also I have gravel substrate, so have been doing root tabs too for the iron (lots heavy root feeders)

This is the first week I will be dosing KNO3 and KH2PO4

what is gluteraldehyde and what is it for? I never heard of it

Bump: One last question- if the plants are using up the nitrates in the tank, will it show close to zero when I test the water at end of week? or does it show regardless of what they consume


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Indirectly it comes from fish waste. That breaks down giving off ammonia on which the bio-filter does that ammonia/nitrite/nitrate thing.
If the nitrate readings you mentioned were before you added KNO3, but you had deficiencies with only half of the micros...then the full amount but just substituting K2SO4 for KNO3 may be more appropriate.
In fish only tanks people try to keep those readings at 0. But the plants need those reading to be preferably between 10 and 20 on nitrates. Higher than that is where they actually begin to give fish a problem.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Well, if there were no fish in the tank, but you still added fish food you would be adding nitrogen in the form of proteins. 
Microorganisms would break this down into all the forms of nitrogen we commonly see in aquariums. Ammonia, ammonium, nitrite, nitrate. Fish do not need to be in the tank. 

Fish eat the protein. 
They use some proteins in building and repairing their body, and the rest is waste, whether it is surplus food, or their own body proteins broken down to be discarded. 

Fish get rid of most nitrogen via the gills, in the form of ammonia. 
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gluteraldehyde is the active ingredient in Excel, a source of carbon for aquatic plants. 
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Fish food has reasonable amounts of nitrogen (N), phosphorus (P) and most traces. 
If your tank is showing 5-20 ppm NO3 from fish food, then it probably also has enough P and traces for the plants. 
Fish food is low in potassium (K) and the yellow spots and holes in the leaves is very common with potassium deficiency. Fish food is also low in iron. Iron deficiency varies a bit in aquatic plants. 

I would start dosing potassium and iron, and continue to monitor the NO3. 
As the plants get the potassium and iron they need, they may start using more of the other things, so the NO3 will be going down. That is when you would start dosing nitrogen, phosphate and traces. You are using the NO3 test as a stand in for phosphates and traces, since most of the NO3 is coming from fish food. When you need to start adding NO3, you should also start adding P and traces. 

Adding some source of carbon is a good idea, too. There may be enough CO2 in the water when you are running a low tech tank, but as soon as the tank shows it needs some supplements, then additional carbon is a really good thing. You could do a DIY yeast/sugar system, or add Excel (There are several brands of liquid carbon now. Excel was the first). 

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The nitrate test will show accurate levels of NO3. 
If there are other forms of nitrogen in the tank, then it won't show up. The most common 'other' forms are:
Ammonia or nitrite. Should be zero. Beneficial bacteria change these into nitrate, and plants use ammonia and nitrite. 
Seachem Flourish Nitrogen supplies N in several forms. According to their label you can use the NO3 test, but then you need to double the results to figure out how much actual usable nitrogen there is. For example, if your test reads 5 ppm from Seachem Flourish Nitrogen (not fish food), then you can assume there is 10 ppm equivalent of nitrogen available to the plants. 

For some reason fish seem to be sensitive to NO3 that comes from decomposing fish food and similar sources. I sometimes wonder what else is going on in the tank when there is so much decomposing going on that the fish do not like. 
Anyway, fish can handle somewhat higher levels of NO3 when it is dosed as fertilizer (for example, from KNO3)
Both NO3 from fish food, and NO3 from potassium nitrate will show up on the NO3 test. There is no way of knowing how much NO3 comes from either source. 

Most basically: If the NO3 is going down between water changes, the plants are using it. 
If the NO3 is rising, then there is excess entering the tank. It is up to you to figure out the possible sources and adjust not just the nitrogen, but the other ferts as well.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Ok. That is a lot of info- I think I understand better now. Thanks. I didn't realize there were other forms of nitrate. I thought I could get by without dosing CO2 but maybe will try using the liquid available, and if that looks really beneficial for my setup, I've been thinking about doing the DIY yeast method.... so much still to learn!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I still need some help adjusting my ferts. I'm now dosing once a week on my tank: 2ml Flourish Comprehensive and dry ferts 1/16 tsp K2SO4, 1/32 tsp KNO3 and half of 1/32 tsp KH2PO4 (because I tend to have near 40ppm nitrates anyway). Most of my plants are doing better- but the rotala indica is still not at its best (pale leaves) and my java fern is awful- every day more leaves get mottled brown spots and then start to yellow. No more holes, though. See my other thread on deficient plants, please. The ferns are still putting up new leaves, but what do they need the other plants don't? 

I was going to buy chelated iron online but the cost seems a bit high- 1/2 lb is $10 plus shipping. There's also Leaf Zone at local store- but if I use that does should I dose less/none of K2SO4 since it also has potassium? (If the added iron helps, when the Zone bottle runs out I would probably buy chelated iron anyways and dose K2SO4 again, if that's what I should do)

Thanks for any help- still trying to get the hang of all this.
(see bigger leaves in the pic but they're worse now- I took this a week ago)


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Now I'm confused again- do I need to dose chelated iron or Leaf Zone- as the Flourish Comp already has it. Or will my plants do better if I back off on the micros and just use Leaf Zone. (I asked this in another thread too sorry for repeats)


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

I dont think the Java ferns are short on iron. Sometimes their old growth just looks bad, especially if they're recently getting over a deficiency. The older leaves wont repair themselves, but the new growth should come in healthy.

I would stick with Flourish Comp. That should be all the iron you need for low-tech, plus it contains a full range of other necessary micro nutrients, as compared to Leaf Zone which is only K and Fe. 

As for the question do you need to stop K2SO4 if you dose LZ, I wouldnt. Potassium is not something you need to worry about ODing, and the amount in Leaf Zone is not all that much.

As for the Rotala coloring up, that's probably going to require actual co2, or at the very minimum a liquid carbon source (Excel, glute, etc)


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thank you. I appreciate the reply. I'll wait to see if the Java ferns recover then- and stick with my micros for now. 

Should I be dosing micros on second day, apart from the macros even though I'm doing small dose (1/3 norm, as recommended for low tech)?


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## Chris Noto (Aug 19, 2005)

JJ09 said:


> Hi I have a 20gal and a 10 gal tank- both planted. I've started using the EI method.


Your idea about dilution is a good one. You could also use water from a bottle of distilled water, keep the dilution in a clean jar in the refrigerator. 

One question, though. Are you doing the weekly water change recommended by the EI method? You didn't mention that...


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Yes- I'm doing 50% water change once a week. I add the ferts after the water change.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

JJ09 said:


> Should I be dosing micros on second day, apart from the macros even though I'm doing small dose (1/3 norm, as recommended for low tech)?


It's generally considered best to dose macros and micros on different days. Something about Fe interacting with P and becoming unusable. Somebody else can explain the exact science on that better than me. 

The main thing you do not want to do is mix them in the same bottle. I dont think it would make a big difference in your case to dose them on the same day. I've done it before on my high tech tank with no noticeable issues.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

All the big leaves are getting worse looking each day- to this point
















but there's also new baby ones coming in- see bottom left- so I'm hopeful (guess I just have to be more patient!)









Bump: I dose the micros - Flourish Comprehensive- liquid from the bottle. Then I measure all the macros powders into a half cup of tank water, stir until dissolved, pour into the tank. So they're not mixed when I dose- about a five minutes' gap- does that make them mix in the tank, should I give a bigger gap perhaps.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Wow that does look like there's something going on. There are far more knowledgeable people than me around here for diagnosing problems like that. Hopefully one of them will come along and offer better guidance.

You say the java fern is the only plant having problems though, right?


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Well, they were all doing horrible for a long time because didn't realize I had med light and was just dosing low on micros- then I changed back to a lower light source to match, adding in the macros- everything started to improve (dramatically- I have an aponogeton crispus flowering now!) but the java ferns still don't look good. I thought either they are slower to respond, have to shed all the old leaves? or since they feed from water column (my other plants are crown and stems) maybe they were still missing something the other plants got from substrate (gravel w/root tabs added).


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Could be. It sounds like you're on the way to having everything right, esp since your other plants are doing well now. I dont see anything specific you're lacking in the way of ferts. Java ferns are a strange plant man. As long as the new growth is coming in healthy, I probalby wouldnt worry about it and just see what happens. 

This is pure speculation, but there is a possibility that you're dosing just barely enough, and the java ferns are being out competed for nutrients by the faster growing plants, which in turn is leaving them still deficient. You could always go up to 1/2 EI, or 1/3 twice a week and see what happens.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I always thought java ferns were supposed to be tough, hard-to-kill plants! But mine always seem to start dying off the nicest leaves whenever I change something. Are they sensitive that way.

Yeah the Watersprite bounced back from being almost nothing (someone told me it was the worst condition of w'sprite they'd ever seen) to going thru the roof in just a week- now I've got babies of that floating all over too- Maybe it's hogging stuff and outcompeting the ferns... is there any way to correct for that besides upping the dose on everything?


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Or if I cut out some Watersprite so there's less of that?

Bump: I'd actually rather keep the ferts on just-barely-enough. So my growth doesn't get out of control, it's really not a very big tank considering, and already I'm having to trim stuff out weekly. If that's sensible.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

JJ09 said:


> Maybe it's hogging stuff and outcompeting the ferns... is there any way to correct for that besides upping the dose on everything?


Nope, only thing you can do is either take out a bunch of the sprite, or increase the ferts until everyone is happy.



JJ09 said:


> I'd actually rather keep the ferts on just-barely-enough. So my growth doesn't get out of control, it's really not a very big tank considering, and already I'm having to trim stuff out weekly. If that's sensible.


The alternative maybe is to reduce your light. That is what's driving your growth rates now that ferts are no longer limited. Adding more ferts at this point shouldnt make anything grow faster than it already is. The gas pedal now, so to speak, is light.

But some plants are just fast growing, period. I eventually phased out a bunch of wisteria and l repens in my 75, because I got tired of having to prune it back so often.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Ok. Good to know.


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## Chris Noto (Aug 19, 2005)

JJ09 said:


> I always thought java ferns were supposed to be tough, hard-to-kill plants! But mine always seem to start dying off the nicest leaves whenever I change something. Are they sensitive that way.


1. Java Fern is a hardy, low light plant, but the only plants that are "unkillable" are the plastic ones! 

2. Older leaves always give up their nutrients to new growth if there is any nutrient deficiency. 



> Yeah the Watersprite bounced back from being almost nothing (someone told me it was the worst condition of w'sprite they'd ever seen) to going thru the roof in just a week- now I've got babies of that floating all over too- Maybe it's hogging stuff and outcompeting the ferns... is there any way to correct for that besides upping the dose on everything?


The way to do it is to get the nutrient levels right. Period. That will make the tank right for all your plants, as long as there is enough light for them.

Keep going. You are learning to keep an underwater garden. Be patient with yourself. None of us got this without trial and error. I've been doing it since I was ten years old, more than fifty years ago, and I still get stumped sometimes, and wind up with an ugly mess in a tank.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

Java ferns can darken from CO2 deficiency. Are any other plants showing twisted growth, stunting, over-all poor health?

I know what you're thinking. "I don't use CO2". Well, plants do. 

Increasing light will increase CO2 demand for plants. Even when we have fertilization correct we can still have CO2 deficiency.

So your choices are to lower the light level or add Excel or CO2 gas. 

As far as fertilization just dose what's recommended here. Keep up the water changes. If you want to understand more about dosing try this.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I have already lowered my light, from what it was- that's when things started improving. Yes, I did have stunted growth on other plants, but not so much anymore. Thanks for the links- I am following that dosing chart, using 1/3. I appreciate the barrel analogy, that helps explain it a lot.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

Glad to help.

One last thing. I noticed this thread started on 1/2/15. If you have made any modifications it takes time to see results. You have a low tech tank which means things happen slowly. Give it time before you change too many things. Then you will get a feeling for what works and what doesn't.

Then again you can push light, CO2 and ferts to the limit. Kind of like balancing a ball bearing on the back of a spoon in a moving vehicle lol.

Just saying. Give the tank time to show you what it needs. A keen eye is the best weapon in this hobby IMO.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Chris Noto said:


> Your idea about dilution is a good one. You could also use water from a bottle of distilled water, keep the dilution in a clean jar in the refrigerator.


Chris Noto- why keep it in the fridge? Does the solution degrade in just a week, if kept room temp? thanks


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## Chris Noto (Aug 19, 2005)

JJ09 said:


> Chris Noto- why keep it in the fridge? Does the solution degrade in just a week, if kept room temp? thanks


Your solutions will not "degrade" but they may just grow mold or fungus!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Especially if they're mixed in tank water, I guess. Ok, that would be gross!


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