# Which of these fish can live together in a 30gallon tank PLEASE?



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

Ok, so Im looking at fish for my 30g tall tank (please see my albums) Ive looked and looked and googled and googled....lol..and this is a list of ALL the fish I like. Now obviously I realise I cant have anywhere *close* to this wishlist (unless I had a 10,000gallon tank in my lounge lol) BUT can you tell me which fish would live happily together and what would be a good mix of colourful fish for me? Tank will be planted - when I can get anything to live more than a week that is - 
Im open to any suggestions you may have.  All I know at the moment is I definately gotta have a nice colourful *centrepiece* fish to show off the middle level and some *Panda* *corys*. I dont mind about the others. Id like a Pleco but I doubt I have the room. 
My water is alkaline and rated _hard._
PH 8.2 never changes.
calcium carbonate 275 mg/l 


So Here Goes:
*LOL*

*TOP AND TOP/MIDDLE LEVELS
*Glowlight Tetra 
Black Widow Tetra 
Emperor Tetra 
Silvertip Tetra 
Black Phantom Tetra 
Buenos Aires Tetra 
Rosy Tetra 
Diamond Neon Tetra 
Callistus Tetra 
Cardinal Tetra
Meta Tetra
Rainbow Emperor Tetra 
Bleeding Blue Tetra
Fire Red Endler
Ruby Barb 
Odessa Barb Females
Torpedo Barb 
Harlequin
Galaxy Rasbora
Japan Electric Blue Layer Tail Guppy 
Pink Layer Tail Guppy 
Tiger Guppy Pair
Black Tuxedo Guppy Pair
Black Sword 
Red Wag Platy 

*MIDDLE*
Red Rainbow 
Threadfin Rainbow
Yellow Rainbowfish 
Hifin Rainbow
Blue Gourami 
Opaline Gourami
Angelfish Small

*BOTTOM
* 
zebra Ottos
Hypoptopoma Vampiro (vampire catfish)
Bumblebee Catfish
Paltydoras Sp. catfish
Aspidoras Taurus Cory
Cory Green Cat
Corydoras Atropersonatus
Corydoras Pastazensis
Corydoras Peru Bondi (C 91) 
Corydoras Sp. Metae
Corydioras Elegans Variant ( CW008)
Albino Cory 
Julii Cory 
Panda Cory 
Sterbas Cory 
Gold Algae Eate
Para Pleco
Blue Phantom Pleco
Zebra Pleco 
Royal Panaque Pleco
Hypancistrus Sp. Pleco
Lemon / Green Phantom High Fin Pleco
Flash Panaque Pleco
Blue Fin Panaque Pleco
Pseudolithoxus Tigris 
Blue Loach
Chain Loach 

*MISC FISH I LIKE BUT THINK UNSUITABLE FOR A FAIRLY SMALL COMMUNITY TANK?*
Apistogramma 'Sunset' Atulapa 
Apistogramma Algodon 
Apistogramma Baenschi Inca PAIR
Nannacara Aureocephalus PAIR
Caquetaia Myersi Dwarf Cichlids
:fish1::fish::fish::fish::bounce:

:thumbsup: THANKYOU EVERYONE


----------



## Bannik (Apr 2, 2011)

I think individual fish tend to have their own personality. I picked my fish based on what was available at the live feed stores in my area. Before picking out any fish I went to the 3 stores in my area and just observed the fish 3 or 4 times in about a 2 week period. The first thing I did was narrow them down by which I thought looked the best. Then I went home and made sure I could pick a water temp, hardness and PH that they would all be happy in. That narrowed my least to about a dozen. Then I would watch and see who looked to be the healthiest and who had the "personality" I was looking for. I really wanted Glofish Danios but after watching them in the tank, all the yellow ones looked super aggressive and none of the others really schooled so I passed on them. The Cardinal Tetras were my next choice, but they were all tiny and they seemed to get new shipments everyday so I'm guessing a lot ended up dying. Another fish I wanted was their Galaxy Rasboras but they never seemed to eat flake food when I asked if they would feed the tank a pinch, so I'm guessing they were wild caught and would not acclimate well not to mention the ethical issues with that.

I ended up picking Dwarf Cordoras. They are so active and watching them school on the bottom is a definite treat. Also, Neon Tetras. These weren't my first choice but after observing them in the tanks they all schooled together tightly and were pretty active. Then I picked Harlequin Rasboras because they contrast so well with the Neons, and they looked totally non-aggressive, they were in a tank with zebra danios and would kinda hang out in groups of 1 or 2 and mind their own business while the danios zoomed and raced around them.

You'll see some people who say they have angelfish that can't have any other fish in that tank, and some people who will have the same species who is as passive as a lamb. So just find out what is available locally, pick your favorites then watch their personality to find out who will work best for your set-up.


----------



## toddnbecka (Sep 4, 2006)

Livebearers like the guppies or endler's, swordtails and platies are better suited to your hard, alkaline water than most tetras. Black widow tetras are an exception to that general rule, though most species will tolerate it.

A single angel or gourami would be good, tank really should be larger for rainbows though. They're very active fish that need plenty of open water to move around.

Bumblebee and platydoras catfish will eat smaller fish, and you'd be surprised at the size of their mouths. They're also strictly nocturnal, never seen by day unless disturbed. Most pleco's are also nocturnal, the L-204 flash Panaques would be more visible and the best choice for your water. However, they eat wood and make a bigger mess than most others like Hypancistrus. A common bristlenose pleco would be the best algae eater for your setup, they're simply hardier than Otocinclus. Corydoras catfish usually prefer a lower pH and softer water, but the green or albino would likely be more adaptable. Those are usually captive-bred rather than imported, and tend to be less fussy about water conditions.
Blue and chain loaches are social fish, need to be kept in groups, and are generally too aggressive toward other species to work well in a smaller community tank.


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

Bannik said:


> I think individual fish tend to have their own personality. I picked my fish based on what was available at the live feed stores in my area. Before picking out any fish I went to the 3 stores in my area and just observed the fish 3 or 4 times in about a 2 week period. The first thing I did was narrow them down by which I thought looked the best. Then I went home and made sure I could pick a water temp, hardness and PH that they would all be happy in. That narrowed my least to about a dozen. Then I would watch and see who looked to be the healthiest and who had the "personality" I was looking for. I really wanted Glofish Danios but after watching them in the tank, all the yellow ones looked super aggressive and none of the others really schooled so I passed on them. The Cardinal Tetras were my next choice, but they were all tiny and they seemed to get new shipments everyday so I'm guessing a lot ended up dying. Another fish I wanted was their Galaxy Rasboras but they never seemed to eat flake food when I asked if they would feed the tank a pinch, so I'm guessing they were wild caught and would not acclimate well not to mention the ethical issues with that.
> 
> I ended up picking Dwarf Cordoras. They are so active and watching them school on the bottom is a definite treat. Also, Neon Tetras. These weren't my first choice but after observing them in the tanks they all schooled together tightly and were pretty active. Then I picked Harlequin Rasboras because they contrast so well with the Neons, and they looked totally non-aggressive, they were in a tank with zebra danios and would kinda hang out in groups of 1 or 2 and mind their own business while the danios zoomed and raced around them.
> 
> You'll see some people who say they have angelfish that can't have any other fish in that tank, and some people who will have the same species who is as passive as a lamb. So just find out what is available locally, pick your favorites then watch their personality to find out who will work best for your set-up.


...yet another fantastic post! You will have to write a book! Good advice as usual, many thanks 
Ive learned a lot today!!! One thing being 'wild caught' fish need to be in perfect enviroments. They arent adaptable like tank bred fish are they? and as you rightly said, there are ethical issues with their capture. Not sure just how man dont make it, but I bet the fatality rate is very high, not to mention stress levels. I know its the only way of introducing 'new' species for us humans, but I wonder if its at all cruel? Then again, nature is cruel by default.... the debate will continue for years to come im sure 
ALL the fish you mentioned have been on my lists too at some mpoint. Im not keen on the tiny tiny neons, but they do look amazing in large schools where their natural behaviour can be fun to watch. My all time favs are corys tho. I just adore the Pandas and Bandits. A friend has a big school of Pandas in her tank and they are hilarious to watch. They try to bury themselves in the substrate and flick sand at eachother...lol...I call her tank Baywatch, cus she has some real poseurs in there lol. My 10g has Zebra Danios and Golden Longfin Danios. The goldens are my favourite. They have more personality and are crazy little swimmers. One evn comes and eats flake straight from my fingers. Zebs and Goldens school together like siblings. Ive never seen any aggressin or fin nipping at all. One thing suprised me about them. I assumed they would only inhabit the top level and maybe sometimes the middle of my tank but they zoom around the whole tank with no prefernce really....and often I see them hiding in the bogwood or on the floor, hiding amongst the Hornwort I rescued from my bigger tank. They went NUTS when I tried a small Eheim airpump in the tank. I swear they were smiling


----------



## ValMM (Feb 22, 2011)

What about Scarlet Badis?


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

toddnbecka said:


> *Livebearers like the guppies or endler's, swordtails and platies are better suited to your hard, alkaline water than most tetras*. Black widow tetras are an exception to that general rule, though most species will tolerate it.
> 
> A single angel or gourami would be good, tank really should be larger for rainbows though. They're very active fish that need plenty of open water to move around.
> 
> ...


I guessed as much, but was hoping I got it wrong. Damn my water lol!! Every fish I look up seems to like acidic water with PH no higher than 6. :icon_twis:icon_twis Someone told me BW Tetras are badly behaved bullies who will think nothing of killing or injurying other fish as they sleep at night! Charming little things!! lol The Emporer Tetras are lovely arent they? I was suprised myself when Rainbowfish were recommended as I thought they would be very active for my tank too! The Dwarf Rainbows where I live are not pure-bred. Even the shops/breeders who stock them around my part of the country admit that they are weak examples. They dont last long Ive been told, so I think I'll pass on rainbows altogether. Panaques I found out today are huuuuuge waste creators so they arent going in lol lol I like the BNPleco too but again, they are massive waste producers - which to my mind means more waterchanges and cleaning??
I thought the same anbout Corys, they prefer lower PH and softer water. BUT Ive seen a really good selection of Corys in a local Koi Carp shop strangely enough and they are thriving!! That could be down to the shop's industrial filter though do you think? Oh what a shame about the Chain loaches  Ive not seen them anywhere before yesterday and I fell in love with them. Scrub them off too I guess.

At this rate, all I'll have in my tank will be my Zebra Danios and a snail.....hahahahaha :flick:

So, what about Barbs? Not my first choice but they do pref hard water and the rosy & Odessa females are pretty cute dont you think? But do they make good community fish? Probably not if the Tiger Barbs are anything to go by. Even the cherry barbs can be a bit nippy i think? I love the harelquins and Galaxy Rasboroughs - but i read a book from LFS that said they dont play nicely either..:icon_frow Are Endlers baby guppies or have I got that totally arse-about-face again? lol.
I like pencilfish but they have to be in soft water. Ive tried and tried, but I just cant seem to warm to Gouramis. Dont know what it is about them I dont like. Yes an angelfish would be perfect IF i can find small ones and am fortunate enough to find strong ones who will tolerate the water. Can they be kept singularly? They'll be lonely wont they? Do fish get lonely I wonder? Ive often thought Bettas get the worst deal - how the beautiful males are kept all on their own and in stupidly tiny containers makes me so angry  You never buy Bettas so much as rescue them IMO. Most LFS keep them in those unbelievably small Betta cups?!?! ..and Ive seen them in BLUE water too :icon_excl Whats THAT all about aye? :icon_twis (LFS said the water was blue to stop them being able to see other fish who theyd want to attack, but they were on their own in cups!)

Ok, well thankyou so much for your advice. The search continues tomorrow. As does more 'googling'..lol

Gotta love Google :tongue:


----------



## toddnbecka (Sep 4, 2006)

Hmm, I was thinking of black skirt tetras, not the same as black widows? They also come in a white variety that are usually painted or dyed, though that wears off fairly quickly.
Rosy barbs are pretty harmless, but not too bright on general. Never dealt with odessa barbs personally.
Endler's are essentially a different breed of guppy, there's still some debate whether or not they're actually the same species, but they breed the same. Main difference I've seen (aside from the color/markings of the males) is that endler's don't eat their fry like guppies usually do.
Angels are cichlids, unless you get a group and keep a pair a single is fine. Cichlids aren't generally social fish, more inclined to attack conspecifics than live and let live in the same tank. It's a territorial thing, and an angel will see the whole tank as his own.


----------



## manikmunky (Mar 24, 2011)

You have the same problems I do with water parameters, where abouts in the UK are you?

I haev tons of guppy/endler hybrids that are doing (too) well in my tank, the ottos and sparkling gouramis have fitted in nicely too. I'm working on sepperating the guppies out of the tank in an attempt to slow the population explosion... You're welcome to some of them if you live close'ish 

As for choosing fish, Bannik has given some great advice, see what the LFS has and pick your fav's, then check to see if you can keep them together in your water.


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

manikmunky said:


> You have the same problems I do with water parameters, where abouts in the UK are you?
> 
> I haev tons of guppy/endler hybrids that are doing (too) well in my tank, the ottos and sparkling gouramis have fitted in nicely too. I'm working on sepperating the guppies out of the tank in an attempt to slow the population explosion... You're welcome to some of them if you live close'ish
> 
> As for choosing fish, Bannik has given some great advice, see what the LFS has and pick your fav's, then check to see if you can keep them together in your water.


 really? Its a total mare innit? Im Kings Lynn, Norfolk (East Anglia)
Do you do anything to your water to lower nitrates? There are supposed ammonia issues in our water, but mine doesnt contain any thank god. Nitrates though...off the scale. People cant believe me when I tell them tapwater tests at 50ppm. But Anglia Water confirm it to be true so theres no dispute. 
Where are you based and how do you manage yr water?

I think the endlers are propa cute..especially the Fire Red Endlers. They arent artificially dyed are they? The colours Ive seen are really bright and pretty. I saw some photos of Purple Pencilfish. OMG they are lovely, but it seems they are hard to keep in hard water and need other things I dont have...lol..like a bigger tank and £40 for a pair!! 
But Ive found these:

Chili Rasbora
Celest Pear Danio
Galaxy Rasboro
Pelteobagrus Ornatus or Hyalobagrus fluvas
sparrow Rasboro

Theres a lady on this forum called *Msjinkzd* and apparently everyone here knows of her and her exceptional fish. She has some other little fish that I like even more called *Espei Rasboro, Furcatas Rainbow, Agilis Rasboro*

I have no idea how they school or if they are good community fish, but I do know they like hard water - from 7.5 upwards...

:flick: :flick: :flick:


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

ValMM said:


> What about Scarlet Badis?


 
are they similar to chili Rasboros? They are super sweet!!!! 

EDIT: done a google. WOW they are NICE!!! and bigger than I expected. Ph 7.5 isnt too far off for me I think. MMMn....I like them a lot


----------



## manikmunky (Mar 24, 2011)

amberskye said:


> really? Its a total mare innit? Im Kings Lynn, Norfolk (East Anglia)
> Do you do anything to your water to lower nitrates? There are supposed ammonia issues in our water, but mine doesnt contain any thank god. Nitrates though...off the scale. People cant believe me when I tell them tapwater tests at 50ppm. But Anglia Water confirm it to be true so theres no dispute.
> Where are you based and how do you manage yr water?


I'm in Kent, I measured the tap water going in the other day, nitrates at around 25 so not quite as high as yours. PH around 7.6 and almost too hard for the strip tests to read... I fill up a 20L bottle, add water conditioner and leave it over night, sometimes I throw an airline in there to aerate it, although I have no idea if that helps...

I refuse to chemicaly alter the tank though, for hardness or PH etc. The water in the tank is a little softer and slightly lower PH (around 7.4) and to be honest most species will adapt to it, just acclimatise them slowly, and try to purchase tank bred. If you can get them from a local breeder even better obviously.

At 50 you'll have to keep an eye on it, keep up with water changes. Adding plants and nitrogen removing filter media might help a little. The plants will also soften the water some.


----------



## The Dude (Feb 8, 2011)

I would go by the PH the fish are kept in rather than what the literature says. I have 7 Gorgeous Pinoy Angels thriving in water with a PH of 8.2. I've also got several different species that are supposed to not co exist together in tanks and thriving. I also have my tanks "overpopulated". The only issues I'm battling are the ones associated with adding C02 to one of my planted tanks.


----------



## toddnbecka (Sep 4, 2006)

I found some of those wee catfish at an lfs many years ago, long before the internet. Very mellow little fish that liked to hang out among live floating plants. Wouldn't eat flakes, the only thing I could get them to eat were live blackworms. They may eat frozen bloodworms too, never tried those when I had the catfish. I did see one or two females carrying bright green eggs, but never raised any fry.


----------



## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

You do the work. Eliminate 75% of that list, then ask for input.
Look up each one of the species you like. www.fishbase.org is likely to have all the species, though maybe not all the color variations. (That is OK, most color variations have chemistry requirements and personality pretty much the same as the straight species)
The Baensch Aquarium Atlas is a great reference, but is not (as far as I know) available on line. If you belong to a fish club, see if anyone has at least volume 1, which has most of the common fish. 

Make yourself a chart. Temperature preferences down the side, GH across the top. 
Put each fish on that chart in the area that best represents the middle of the preferred range. 
Mark also on that chart where your tap water is, and how well you can maintain a certain temperature. If your house is really warm, then the tank will probably be warmer than average, for example. 

Then, you will have some ballpark idea of which fish are chemically compatible with each other, and are OK in the conditions you can offer. 

Then look up each fish on at least 3 sites, and read the details about the personality. 

Here are some hints:
Keep only one school of fish. Sort of mid-tank, but higher or lower is OK, depending on the other fish. 
Then add one larger (not too much larger) specimen. If you select a Gourami, then the schooling fish should be lower-mid tank. If you want an Angel, then the schooling fish ought to be upper or upper-mid tank swimmers. 
Then add some bottom fish. This could also be a school or a group of social fish such as Cories, or it could be another specimen such as a mated pair of Dwarf Cichlids.

Territorial fish: Some are aggressive only toward their own species, or close relatives (such as: only ONE Anabantoid in this tank) Others are aggressive to many other fish, any that come near their territory. This will usually be worse if the territorial fish is actively breeding. Some females are less territorial than the male and you might get by with a female Gourami, for example, or several female Bettas.


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

Diana said:


> You do the work. Eliminate 75% of that list, then ask for input.
> Look up each one of the species you like. www.fishbase.org is likely to have all the species, though maybe not all the color variations. (That is OK, most color variations have chemistry requirements and personality pretty much the same as the straight species)
> The Baensch Aquarium Atlas is a great reference, but is not (as far as I know) available on line. If you belong to a fish club, see if anyone has at least volume 1, which has most of the common fish.
> 
> ...


 
thankyou very much for your post . :smile: Fantastic idea! At the moment everything is on scraps of paper lol. Good advice on stocking sequences also. I would have left the corys til last - even though it would have killed me to be so patient :flick: Corys are my favourite  Everyone is so helpful here. Yr so right about getting three sites opinion before making a choice. Different people have different nuggets of information, though sometimes the advice given is very conflicting. I suppose it depends on all the factors taken into account like local water params and tank set ups etc. Id be happy to find some angels who would be ok with a PH of 8.2. This is one fish noone can agree on lol.
I only provided such a long list in case there was anything glaringly unsuitable that I perhaps wouldnt have known, which as it turns out there are too many schools. I have to chose just one school? Could that be like mixed rasboros or do they have to be kept within their specific types? Ill go look  Im happy to do the work to get this tank maximized and healthy. Wasnt beoing lazy, maybe a bit overzealous:wink:


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

manikmunky said:


> I'm in Kent, I measured the tap water going in the other day, nitrates at around 25 so not quite as high as yours. PH around 7.6 and almost too hard for the strip tests to read... I fill up a 20L bottle, add water conditioner and leave it over night, sometimes I throw an airline in there to aerate it, although I have no idea if that helps...
> 
> I refuse to chemicaly alter the tank though, for hardness or PH etc. The water in the tank is a little softer and slightly lower PH (around 7.4) and to be honest most species will adapt to it, just acclimatise them slowly, and try to purchase tank bred. If you can get them from a local breeder even better obviously.
> 
> At 50 you'll have to keep an eye on it, keep up with water changes. Adding plants and nitrogen removing filter media might help a little. The plants will also soften the water some.


I just moved from a place nr Bromley lol. The water there felt like silk compared to here. Since moving here even my skin has dried out and my beloved morning cuppa tea tastes chalky. Nothing a good dunking of jammy dodgers cant sort out tho 
I woulnt add anything chemical to the water to change it either. Thats was one of the first things people told me not to do. Its gotta be plants and water changes for me. I could be worrying unduly though. Wont know until I try, so I shall be adding fish very very slolwly and quarentine tank will have to be setup. Do people keep a spare tank cycled just for quarentine tank or do you simply use some water from an existing cycled tank? 
Also, how do you add schooling fish slowly if they need to be in groups of say 6 upwards? I wouldnt want to add 6 in one go.
:flick:


----------



## night9eyes (Jan 12, 2011)

Someone on aquatic central recommended this and I thought it was pretty cool. You can play with it and figure out numbers and types of fish based on tank size and filtration. Another thing you could do is this--- if you're thinking of a particular fish, read about it's natural habitat (where it came from) and what other species are indigenous to the area (that's the route I usually take) as well as behavioral tendency's of the fish (predator or prey). You can usually get an idea of compatibility that way. Since I love knowing info on fish, I usually just read up. . .but this would be a great tool, if you're not sure about fish to start with. THT

http://aqadvisor.com/


----------



## night9eyes (Jan 12, 2011)

*In regards to your water*

Another misconception is that you would have to use all tap. If you have access to somewhere that sells RO water, you could fill your tank with half tap water and half with RO and that should soften your water enough for some fish that like softer water. You could also use half tap and half distilled water. I did this with my 30 gallon tall for my two angels for years and it's worked great. If you intend to lower PH there are ways to do it, if you already have fish though, you will want to do this gradually. You can add driftwood, as it helps soften the water and make it more acidic. There are black water extracts on the market you could also use (so long as you don't mind your water being tea-stained) or you could use a product that will lower PH while buffering it. I recommend API's Proper PH 6.5 It's should get your water to 6.5 which is ideal for tetras and acidic, softwater fish and plants, and it's got buffering agents to help it stay in that range.


----------



## toddnbecka (Sep 4, 2006)

A reverse osmosis filter would be helpful for lowering your pH and hardness.


----------



## manikmunky (Mar 24, 2011)

amberskye said:


> Do people keep a spare tank cycled just for quarentine tank or do you simply use some water from an existing cycled tank?


I bought a ~25 litre plastic storage box (in fact 5 of them for £12 from Homebase) a 25 watt heater and a sponge filter. You can run the sponge filter in your main tank and keep the box in storage, then when you need it, fill it with old tank water, move the sponge filter accross and add the heater. Very fast to set up and easy to store again later 



amberskye said:


> Also, how do you add schooling fish slowly if they need to be in groups of say 6 upwards? I wouldnt want to add 6 in one go.:flick:


You should be ok adding 6 to start off a 30 gallon tank, particularly if we're talking small tetras. Get the shoal established with 2 lots of 6 maybe? Then add other fish slowly.

The Gouramis after the first shoal is settled (and the tank is stable) might be a good choice.

The zebra ottos you mentioned are lovely, but expensive! The normal ottos are also nice, but can be hard to settle and need a well established tank with algae growth, or so I've read. They're doing well in my tank, but that's been up for almost a year now. Corys are also great, pygmys especially and are really active. Maybe a bristlenose catfish for another bottom fish?

After those are doing well you could see what's what and add as needed.


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

night9eyes said:


> Another misconception is that you would have to use all tap. If you have access to somewhere that sells RO water, you could fill your tank with half tap water and half with RO and that should soften your water enough for some fish that like softer water. You could also use half tap and half distilled water. I did this with my 30 gallon tall for my two angels for years and it's worked great. If you intend to lower PH there are ways to do it, if you already have fish though, you will want to do this gradually. You can add driftwood, as it helps soften the water and make it more acidic. There are black water extracts on the market you could also use (so long as you don't mind your water being tea-stained) or you could use a product that will lower PH while buffering it. I recommend API's Proper PH 6.5 It's should get your water to 6.5 which is ideal for tetras and acidic, softwater fish and plants, and it's got buffering agents to help it stay in that range.


Hello again and a big roud: for your posts roud:
when I did my very first water test with API and saw PH of 8.2 and Nitrates of 50ppm I had a mini panic...lol.. I posted on a couple of different forums for some advice about what I could add to the water to get parameters lower - probably drove people insane lol Upshot was I got told to NOT attempt to change the water with chemicals  something to do with buffers? Do chemical treatments eventually mess with the nitrogen cycle & make the water unstable? :icon_conf Not one person i spoke to advised me to do this lol. I wonder why that is? Have _you_ used the APi Proper PH6.5 on any of your aquariums? 
:bounce: If I were to use half tap water and half RO...what happens if for some reason I cant get hold of any RO water? Wouldnt I then have dangerous water for the lil fishes?  Did you keep 2 angels on their own in your 30g? Id love an angel or two, but would want other fishies too


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

manikmunky said:


> I bought a ~25 litre plastic storage box (in fact 5 of them for £12 from Homebase) a 25 watt heater and a sponge filter. You can run the sponge filter in your main tank and keep the box in storage, then when you need it, fill it with old tank water, move the sponge filter accross and add the heater. Very fast to set up and easy to store again later
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Genius idea for the quarentine tanks! So logical when you think about it lol.
So its possible to put in 6 schooling fish on the same day, without harming the tank? Cool....I had visions of finding 2 dead danios in my aquarium every morning...lol.. Im still undecided about the Gourami. Ive been completely warned off Dwarf G's especially (different forum) I recently saw some moonlight and Opaline Gouramis in LFS and they were a really drab grey colour... dull as dishwater! 
The Angels I wanted originally have been the one fish I constantly umm an err about. Im really hoping I get to talk to someone who has kept them in the UK in same water as I have before I buy any. They can be aggressive too with little fish I hear? My other bright idea :red_mouth was to have a Discus lol:icon_neut What WAS I thinking??? lol..oh hang on, I wasnt! :icon_mrgr Arent the Zebra Ottos just divine?? Rare as well apparently. No idea hjow much they are, but Id find the money if I had to 
To be honest, Im not too bothered about the cost of the fish anymore. I kinda accepted this is not ever going to be a cheap hobby and just about everything else Ive bought for the tank has cost way more than I budgeted for lol. Im fascinated by the different behaviours of the fish and want to study how each addition affects the tank's status quo; thats another reason I intend to stock really slowly - observation!! roud: 
I wonder if a zebra Oto would tolerate my hard water though. If regular Otos wont then I doubt it :icon_conf 
Im so in love with Panda and Bandit Corys :bounce: :bounce: I could easily be happy with a Cory-only tank lol..but as they are bottom dwellers I dont think I could have more than a handful in a tall-ish tank? 
When I first started researching my options I was disappointed to learn that catfish and plecos get to be so big and are both huge waste producers. You think a BN catfish or small pleco would be ok? Bit scared about the waste they may produce or the danger they may present for the Corys? I just tried to look up Pygmy Corys. The photos made them look so tiny I could barely see them. Are they really, really little then?

Thanks for everything you have posted. Much appreciated


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

The Dude said:


> I would go by the PH the fish are kept in rather than what the literature says. I have 7 Gorgeous Pinoy Angels thriving in water with a PH of 8.2. I've also got several different species that are supposed to not co exist together in tanks and thriving. I also have my tanks "overpopulated". The only issues I'm battling are the ones associated with adding C02 to one of my planted tanks.


for real? 7 Pinoy Angels in PH 8.2? Wow..Im impressed. No disrespect but is that down to good fish from decent stock or your impressive skills  Do you ever use a chemical treatment to change the params of your water?

QUOTE: I also have my tanks "overpopulated"
Very brave to post that admission  The very first forum I went to absolutely ripped into anyone they considered to be overstocking their tanks. Its not really anyones place to start reprimanding and wagging fingers IMO. I saw a few newbies doing things that I possibly would not, but I def wouldnt start laying down the law. What works for one wont work for another, soif everyone is happy and healthy good for you!!! roud: 

Only the brave or thick skinned survive the dangerous waters of some forums I wont mention 

What size was the tank you had yr 7 angels in? Was it a tall one...?

Thanks for your imput :red_mouth


----------



## The Dude (Feb 8, 2011)

My Angels are from excellent stock. They were bred and raised in hard water and they are thriving as are the 4 giant Danio's and 2 Platy's in my planted 46g. Eventually I may move 3, if they become too crowded, but everyone is happy now. Besides it's my tank and my fish. I have very thick skin. Nothing special in the tanks but excel and prime.
I ask for opinions here and there, but in the end I do what brings me pleasure.
I've had all kinds of combo's and numbers that have worked for me and it's fun to learn first hand.


amberskye said:


> for real? 7 Pinoy Angels in PH 8.2? Wow..Im impressed. No disrespect but is that down to good fish from decent stock or your impressive skills  Do you ever use a chemical treatment to change the params of your water?
> 
> QUOTE: I also have my tanks "overpopulated"
> Very brave to post that admission  The very first forum I went to absolutely ripped into anyone they considered to be overstocking their tanks. Its not really anyones place to start reprimanding and wagging fingers IMO. I saw a few newbies doing things that I possibly would not, but I def wouldnt start laying down the law. What works for one wont work for another, soif everyone is happy and healthy good for you!!! roud:
> ...


----------



## robbowal (Mar 27, 2011)

Hi Amberskye
Someone mentioned the Baensch Aquarium Atlas earlier, i would advise getting one but get the 1-5 photo index as that will give you all the information you need regarding water preference and adult size (very important) and breeding habits,feeding etc the rest you can get from good old google.
its not cheap but it is worth every penny.


----------



## night9eyes (Jan 12, 2011)

amberskye said:


> Hello again and a big roud: for your posts roud:
> when I did my very first water test with API and saw PH of 8.2 and Nitrates of 50ppm I had a mini panic...lol.. I posted on a couple of different forums for some advice about what I could add to the water to get parameters lower - probably drove people insane lol Upshot was I got told to NOT attempt to change the water with chemicals  something to do with buffers? Do chemical treatments eventually mess with the nitrogen cycle & make the water unstable? :icon_conf Not one person i spoke to advised me to do this lol. I wonder why that is? Have _you_ used the APi Proper PH6.5 on any of your aquariums?
> :bounce: If I were to use half tap water and half RO...what happens if for some reason I cant get hold of any RO water? Wouldnt I then have dangerous water for the lil fishes?  Did you keep 2 angels on their own in your 30g? Id love an angel or two, but would want other fishies too


 Oh okay, let me backtrack. I only suggested a PH regulator because I thought your tank was already cycled and you were just looking to lower ph. Leaving water conditions what they are right now is actually best for cycling, if you're already cycling. A higher ph is better for cycling anyway. I wouldn't cycle a tank with a ph of 6.5 just because acidic conditions stunt bacterial growth. I would wait and cycle the tank, then later and gradually change the water conditions if you'd like to. Just to give you an idea, my 90 gallon was cycled in 2 weeks, but what helped was running on canister filter on an existing tank so that good bacteria could start populating the biological filtration. Then I added about 15lbs of used substrate from my older aquarium and added plants, driftwood, and more (but new) substrate. I added SeaChem Stability everyday and fed the tank ammonia since I was doing a fishless cycle. I monitored my ammonia levels and nitrite levels twice a day. I started with a large amount (5ml) of ammonia and then fed the tank 1ml of ammonia a day after that (till my nitrites increased and finally everything went to zero) I prefer doing a fishless cycle and to each is own, but with either cycling process, make sure you continue to monitor your ammonia and nitrites. 

That being said, I would wait to lower ph (again if you want to do that) or add RO water, til after your cycle is completed. But it looks like you're on the right track.


----------



## albirdy (Jul 16, 2008)

have you refined your list at all?


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

albirdy said:


> have you refined your list at all?


...2nd time lucky! Dog in the garden...lolroud:

Yes I have trimmed the list. Given it a number 1 allover 

I was up til 4am this morning comparing fish and fish2tank ratios :icon_conf One thing has become clear ...this isnt going to be the 'dream tank' I first thought. :icon_mad: Its nowhere near the size I would like, its the wrong shape, and my water isnt suitable for any of the fish that I really want. So I'm just going to have to work with what I have for now and will treat this as a 'practice' tank lol. (next tank will be at least 5ft LONG and will have water from RO unit)
In the meantime my list has had a makeover....lol...or I should say a make-under :icon_mrgr

The 4 lists Im working with now are:
*List one*
*







*
*List two*









*List three*
*







*
*List four*
*







*

Im sure there will be much 'tweaking' when I start looking deeper lol
I didnt intend on Guppies or Platys, but they seem to be the only fish I can see that have a lot of colour and who will be well behaved. Tetras im still looking into. Dont know if they could handle my hard water. Took out the BNpleco as just having him in there used over 45% of my available stock. Took out anything wildcaught and all the 'unusual' types - I can always have them at a later date when I know what Im doing roud: Id like an Angel, but am in 2 minds about the suitablitly in this tank. Now looking at aquarium plants. I want to aquascape with the carpet style plants, but not sure how they are secured? Typically the plants I like need moderate to high lighting and I only have T5's so that will limit me ...yet again  I so envy people with good water and practical tanks...pmsl roud:


----------



## robbowal (Mar 27, 2011)

Hi Amberskye
With regards to your stock levels, if you are running an external filter like yours i dont think the levels apply as you have significantly increased the capibility of the tank to maintain a large bioload by adding the filter.
The old rules of X inches of fish per Ltr/Gal dont really apply with modern filters.
The filter should be turning over the tank volume around 4 or 5 times per hour for good circulation.
The main thing to remember is to increase the bioload slowly to give the filter time to adapt.
then its down to regular maintenance/cleaning 
hope that helps

Robert


----------



## robbowal (Mar 27, 2011)

Come to think of it my tank vol is around the same as yours give or take a Gal and my fish stock is as below 
12 phantom tetras 
12 Peppered Corry 
16 Hengeli Rasbora 
4 Bolivian Rams (ramarizi)
1 Leopard frog catfish L134
3 Nerite snails
2 Apistogramma Cacatuoides

Filter is a Eheim 2173 (350T)
Robert


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

robbowal said:


> Hi Amberskye
> With regards to your stock levels, if you are running an external filter like yours i dont think the levels apply as you have significantly increased the capibility of the tank to maintain a large bioload by adding the filter.
> The old rules of X inches of fish per Ltr/Gal dont really apply with modern filters.
> The filter should be turning over the tank volume around 4 or 5 times per hour for good circulation.
> ...


 ..you always help Robert  I thought the filter would be too powerful, but its not at all. Think my fluval 305 turns over 1000LPH and my tank is only just under 140ltrs ..lol..:icon_mrgr
I def will add slowly....when the 'beeping' thing is finally ready :bounce::bounce: Water changes are going to be a big pain though. I cant find an Aqueon/python water changer in the uk so may have to resort to the DIY syphon attachment that someone here very kindly has told me how to construct. Would have been nice to get rid of the buckets and garden hose...lol..


----------



## robbowal (Mar 27, 2011)

Yep im stuck with the bucket too not much fun when i do 50% water changes weekly but it doesn't take that long once you get used to it.
Its all about routine i suppose.


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

robbowal said:


> Yep im stuck with the bucket too not much fun when i do 50% water changes weekly but it doesn't take that long once you get used to it.
> Its all about routine i suppose.


 
If my tank was a normal long tank I wouldnt mind so much, but as you know, to use a syphon to put water IN you have to have the bucket higher than the tank. My tank is nearly same height as me (on the stand) so that is totally out of the question. I have to fill and carry 5 x 3gallon (uk) buckets from kitchen to lounge and either hike it up onto the edge of the canopy (Ive damaged my elbow and forearm doing this) or use a large jug to transfer water from bucket into the tank and that btakes forever, not to mention the slops of water all through the houise  Neither way is any fun. I just want an all-in-onbe water changer. You wouldnt think it would be such a hard thing to find would you? USA have pythons and aqueon....i havent found anything at all so far in UK. :angryfire


----------



## robbowal (Mar 27, 2011)

look for an Eheim Compact pump and place it in the bucket to pump the water back into the tank. if i remember correctly the compact 300 is not too expensive for the job it does. also you could use it to increase circulation in the tank when not pumping refills.
you will still have to fill and carry the bucket but hey that counts as Gym time right?
you can also control the temp better i find that way and add any treatments to the bucket, you cant do that with the python or aqueon


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

robbowal said:


> look for an Eheim Compact pump and place it in the bucket to pump the water back into the tank. if i remember correctly the compact 300 is not too expensive for the job it does. also you could use it to increase circulation in the tank when not pumping refills.
> you will still have to fill and carry the bucket but hey that counts as Gym time right?
> you can also control the temp better i find that way and add any treatments to the bucket, you cant do that with the python or aqueon


 ...yeah i was thinking a pump, but didnt know which one or how it works. Im getting a Powerhead (koralia nano) next week. Could I use that?
What do you do to pump water back in again? Can you use them in reverse (lol) to take out water? I cant get the manual syphon started (lrge gravel vac) so end up sucking one end of the hose. Just as the grotty water is almost in my mouth I whip tube into the bucket on the floor, but most times the water sprays the walls around the tank and the sofa...lol.
Manual syphon is ok when Im near the top of the tank, but as the water level goes down, the suction gets weaker until it breaks the vaccum and just wont start up again,even when Im sucking on it really really hard.:angryfire


----------



## robbowal (Mar 27, 2011)

The Eheim compact 300 is tiny and as its job is primaraly to move water (provide circulation) it also comes in larger formats (namely 600 and 900) i dont see why it cant be used to empty or fill. pop a hose on the outlet and drop pump in tank fill bucket and pop in the bucket for filling tank. 

And for the 15 or 20 pound price tag its not a huge loss even if it doesent work, and even then it it will still do the job of a power head.
the Koralia wont do the same thing as you cant fit a hose to it (check out google images and you will see what i mean)


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/fish/filters_pumps/air_pumps/air_pumps/13227

this one?


----------



## albirdy (Jul 16, 2008)

I LOVE list 3!!!!!!


----------



## robbowal (Mar 27, 2011)

Yep thats the one. not expensive 20 pound for the 600 and i am sure it will work for emptying the tank at least (no more spraying the furniture) place a hose on the outlet pipe and drop it in the tank it will start the syphon for you. when the bucket is full just lift it out of the tank and unplug.
check out the flow rates to see which one will do the job best (i think the 600 would do) 

you mentioned you lived in bromely in london did you ever visit Wholesale tropicals in bethnal green if not i would highly recommend it fantastic shop and advice (over 40 years experience)


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

albirdy said:


> I LOVE list 3!!!!!!


 
lol, yeah that one is the favourite so far.. though i COULD have 

28 x Panda Corys roud:

:icon_mrgr:bounce::icon_mrgr:bounce::icon_mrgr


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

robbowal said:


> Yep thats the one. not expensive 20 pound for the 600 and i am sure it will work for emptying the tank at least (no more spraying the furniture) place a hose on the outlet pipe and drop it in the tank it will start the syphon for you. when the bucket is full just lift it out of the tank and unplug.
> check out the flow rates to see which one will do the job best (i think the 600 would do)
> 
> you mentioned you lived in bromely in london did you ever visit Wholesale tropicals in bethnal green if not i would highly recommend it fantastic shop and advice (over 40 years experience)


Thanks for that 

I lived nr Bromley but I was born in Bethnal Green! Chadwell Heath, Clapton, Hackney and Dawston were places I remember as a child. roud:

No, i wasnt interested in fish then - i had a bloke! hahahaha
 I'll stick with fish roud:
Even if I were to spill 30gallons of dirty fishtank water all over the carpet AND drop a 10kg bag of gravel ontop - he could *still* make more mess :icon_mrgr


----------



## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

ValMM said:


> What about Scarlet Badis?


Scarlet Badis are a very good bottom fish, I think them better suited for small nano tanks. They will get utterly lost amongst a 30 gal tank. They also have special requirements in terms of feeding, they will only eat live or frozen foods. 



amberskye said:


> are they similar to chili Rasboros? They are super sweet!!!!
> EDIT: done a google. WOW they are NICE!!! and bigger than I expected. Ph 7.5 isnt too far off for me I think. MMMn....I like them a lot


They are more similar to a dwarf chichlid, but not really. They are something completer different lol. Badis put alot of thought into everything they do. They watch their food before actually taking a bite, or eating it. They stop to think which direction they may want to go, and they stick close to the bottom. Where as Chili's are very top level fish, they move as a group in seemingly random patterns. 


in your Aqvisor posts, I would be fearful of any chili being put in a tank with a dwarf chichild. The little chili's are VERY small, and would certainly be food for anything quick enough to catch them. The chili unless kept in a very large group would get lost in a larger tank.


----------



## robbowal (Mar 27, 2011)

Amberskye if your in london go and check them out i guarantee you will leave there with some fish and good advice.
They always have some very unusual fish there (over 300 tanks) thats where all my fish are bought. Have been a customer for over ten years and would not go anywhere else.
I used to keep Ciclids (jewel Ciclid and Haplochromis burtoni (burtons mouthbrooder)) not together as they are super aggressive / territorial and like to dig. both stunning fish but limiting in what you can house with them as they play nice for a little while and then turn into psycopaths, killing the new addition regardless of size.
I guess fish are easier to look after than men (never had to look after one myself mind)

I believe that also do mail order on fish and plant within UK so if you are looking for something specific give them a call and ask for Terry (there is a Snr.and Jnr. either can help)


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

*List 5....lol*

*List 5....lol*










very quickly before I go to bed as it IS 3am AGAIN:icon_roll:icon_roll

My hard water over around PH8 is aparently excellent for this list! I run it past a Moderator on PracticalFishkeeping after I read an brill article on hard water fish.
_*he said " fine....just dont breed the Krib because he they will become aggressive, and the bumblebee goby doesnt need salt or brackish water, there are freshwater ones with stronger markings.."*_

Im not sure how v. hard water fish could live with Corys ? 
If this list _could_ work then its pretty amazing isnt it?:tongue:

cant wait to hear what anyone thinks....i did the 'work' and stripped it down to 2 lists. This one and number 3 on previous post.


----------



## robbowal (Mar 27, 2011)

Hi Amberskye 

just get male platys or you will be overrun with them.
to say they breed like rabbits is an understatment, mind you the krib and a few others on your list would love the fry as food.


----------



## tom g (Jan 2, 2010)

*python*

you could order a python or aquaon water changer thru e bay and that would solve your prob , the going price for a python is around fifty dollars canadian here , but u can also try to make your own using a water bed fill adaptor http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8210chk that out u may be able to build one yourself 
cheers 
tom


----------



## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

amberskye said:


> *List 5....lol*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great addition with the furcata rainbows! I love those little suckers.


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

Noahma said:


> Great addition with the furcata rainbows! I love those little suckers.


 :icon_mrgr think it will work or is the Krib gonna be the monstermuncher? lol


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

tom g said:


> you could order a python or aquaon water changer thru e bay and that would solve your prob , the going price for a python is around fifty dollars canadian here , but u can also try to make your own using a water bed fill adaptor http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8210chk that out u may be able to build one yourself
> cheers
> tom


 hahaha..ok...yeah! i could try:icon_conf

ebayuk doesnt sell it from england. To ship it from usa costs the same amount as the python/aqueon :icon_mad: Its gonna cost £60gbr........someone last night gave me a good idea. Pump!! eheim 600 compact should do it!
ooooh and guess what? the plants are coming back to life:icon_bigg i didnt realise how much theyve grown roud:


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

Noahma said:


> Scarlet Badis are a very good bottom fish, I think them better suited for small nano tanks. They will get utterly lost amongst a 30 gal tank. They also have special requirements in terms of feeding, they will only eat live or frozen foods.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 sorry i didnt reply yesterday. Chilis are too small im thinking now. I didnt realise they were _that_ tiny 
Im liking my latest list number 5 though :bounce:


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

night9eyes said:


> Someone on aquatic central recommended this and I thought it was pretty cool. You can play with it and figure out numbers and types of fish based on tank size and filtration. Another thing you could do is this--- if you're thinking of a particular fish, read about it's natural habitat (where it came from) and what other species are indigenous to the area (that's the route I usually take) as well as behavioral tendency's of the fish (predator or prey). You can usually get an idea of compatibility that way. Since I love knowing info on fish, I usually just read up. . .but this would be a great tool, if you're not sure about fish to start with. THT
> 
> http://aqadvisor.com/


excelllent little tool...really impressive. Thanks for that...its kept me up til 4am 2 nights running...lol..lol..


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

robbowal said:


> Hi Amberskye
> Someone mentioned the Baensch Aquarium Atlas earlier, i would advise getting one but get the 1-5 photo index as that will give you all the information you need regarding water preference and adult size (very important) and breeding habits,feeding etc the rest you can get from good old google.
> *its not cheap* but it is worth every penny.


wow......its not is it? Cheapest i can find is £35 in 'fair' condition from amazon...is it really worth it? Ill have it if it is. Doesnt give much info on each fish im told but lists loads and loads of fish types.:red_mouth


----------



## robbowal (Mar 27, 2011)

Hi again 
In short Yes it is worth it and for that price its a good deal.
I've had mine for over ten years and find it a valuable reference tool if you see a fish in store while browsing and are not sure about it this photo index gives brief info on habitat, PH,diet ,compatibility, difficulty, max size and temp range. dont worry if the copy you find is an early edition 2000/2 not much has changed i dont think.
found one hardback on WHS for £45 new
http://www.whsmith.co.uk/CatalogAnd...oductId=9783882440836&shop=10004&type=Froogle
and another soft cover for £25 edition 3 2007
http://www.langtoninfo.co.uk/showitem.aspx?isbn=388244505X


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

robbowal said:


> Hi again
> In short Yes it is worth it and for that price its a good deal.
> I've had mine for over ten years and find it a valuable reference tool if you see a fish in store while browsing and are not sure about it this photo index gives brief info on habitat, PH,diet ,compatibility, difficulty, max size and temp range. dont worry if the copy you find is an early edition 2000/2 not much has changed i dont think.
> found one hardback on WHS for £45 new
> ...


 https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_s...nsch+Aquarium+Atlas+Photo+Index+1-5&x=19&y=20 

hehehe £20 done deal! That should keep me going for awhile.

guess what? my little tank with the 6 danios is really struggling since I stopped doing 50% water changes every day. Ive left it for 5 days and checked this morning: Ammonia 2+ nitrites 1 nitrates 80ppm.
Well theres no way i should have to change out the water every day. SO...out of curiosity I measured all the water in there, jug by jug. Its only 5gallons!!!! Shop told me it was 10 gallons. No wonder it wont cycle with 6 fish in there and a poxy little sponge filter which I dont think is even working properly. The filter that came with the set up barely makes a ripple, I have to keep checking its even on! 
1 of the danios has an ulcer right in the side fin socket. Its bright red and shes keeping that fin is tucked into her body. Poor girl is swimming in circles  

Should I get a better filter? Obviously tank is overstocked but Ive nowehere to pu them.
Changed out 50% the water again today and they seem a lot brighter, but i dont have the time to do this every day as well as the other tank.


----------



## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

amberskye said:


> :icon_mrgr think it will work or is the Krib gonna be the monstermuncher? lol


They are a much larger fish (by x2 the size) of the chili's I think they might get along fine.

I use this website for looking at species, so far there has been valuable information (the link is specifically for the frucatas rainbow) 

http://www.seriouslyfish.com/profile.php?genus=Pseudomugil&species=furcatus&id=222


----------



## robbowal (Mar 27, 2011)

Amberskye
Welcome back to the night shift

Just dont get collectoritis from that book (way too many nice fish in there)
for your small tank try 20% water changes daily and see if that makes any dfference. maybe 50% is too much for the filter to cope with (the fresh water can kill off the benifical bacteria) so by doing 50% every day the bacteria has little chance of colonising the filter and any gravel in the tank. 
FYI small volumes of water are harder to maintain a good balance and by the looks of things you like to keep track of numbers.
I myself dont test any peramiters on my tank and have not since I started over 10 years ago (did on the first small tank but soon realised i was not enjoying the hobby and frustrating myself in the process) the fish will let you know very quickly if something is wrong.
Ask in your LFS for filter start (live bacteria to help seed the tank)maybe you can move them to the large tank for a little holiday while it starts up 6 danios in 140ltr is nothing (cathing them afterwards is another matter entirely)


----------



## Jericho199 (Mar 18, 2011)

I noticed in one of your lists you mentioned emperor tetras _Nematobrycon palmeri_. If you like these but are looking for something with a little more color, I might suggest blue emperors _Inapaichthys kerri._ They're beautiful and stay about 3/4in smaller than emperors, so you could potentially have more in the school. Like emperors, though, they don't shoal particularly tightly, but are really fun to watch.

Also, you mentioned you didn't want to chemically treat your water to soften it or lower ph, but have you considered adding peat to your filter? It's an outstanding natural water softener with slightly acidic properties to gently lower your ph. It softens better than it lowers ph, but combined with Co2 injection (a good idea for plant tanks anyway) you can easily lower your ph by 0.6-0.8. 

It's worth noting that peat does leech tannins into your water, staining it slightly to look like weak tea. A lot of us like the appearance though and it softens those bright lights hurting our fish's eyes.


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

Jericho199 said:


> I noticed in one of your lists you mentioned emperor tetras _Nematobrycon palmeri_. If you like these but are looking for something with a little more color, I might suggest blue emperors _Inapaichthys kerri._ They're beautiful and stay about 3/4in smaller than emperors, so you could potentially have more in the school. Like emperors, though, they don't shoal particularly tightly, but are really fun to watch.
> 
> Also, you mentioned you didn't want to chemically treat your water to soften it or lower ph, but have you considered adding peat to your filter? It's an outstanding natural water softener with slightly acidic properties to gently lower your ph. It softens better than it lowers ph, but combined with Co2 injection (a good idea for plant tanks anyway) you can easily lower your ph by 0.6-0.8.
> 
> It's worth noting that peat does leech tannins into your water, staining it slightly to look like weak tea. A lot of us like the appearance though and it softens those bright lights hurting our fish's eyes.


 
Ohh they are nice , so colourful too. Yes I like them!

I have considered the peat method. I was told that it wouldnt make much difference to my tapwater as my water is really very hard and has too many buffers for anything to penetrate enough to lower PH. Also I just bought some Clearwater media for my filter lol...The whole water issue is making me dizzy!! My water is notoriously rubbish. I mean...nitrates of 50ppm??? Thats crazy isnt it? Myself and daughter have had tummy upsets galore since we moved here from London. Now considering an RODI as this wouls solve all my problems...once I can set it up! Its all looking mighty technical for someone like me who has only just got my head round the concept of rawplugs and drill bits...I had no idea this hobby would get so complicated lol
Just run a quick API on tapwater. I normally test straight from the tap but someone said to let it sit for 24hrs, then test which Ive done this time. PH is well over 8 and nitrates 50PPM+. Theres about .25 ammonia and zero nitrites. I cant really use water of this poor quality for my new setup. Even 2 of my danios from a small tank died yesterday and their 'home' gets a 50% waterchange nearly everyday.:frown: Its never cycled properly because I just cant get rid of the nitrates or ammonia. Have you used an RODI before?


----------



## robbowal (Mar 27, 2011)

Hi Amberskye
sorry to hear about the danios always depressing to lose fish when you have tried everything possible.
what was the Ph stright from the tap? 
With regards to your RO/DI unit i have not used one myself but have looked into them they seem to produce a lot of water a day (around 300ltr max depending on mains pressure) if you are metered for water i would take into consideration the cost of effectivly having a tap on all day(unless you plumb it to a spur tap and only run it when needed like a large britta filter)
Hmmmmmm filter. 
just a thought have you tested your water after running it through a filter it may be a solution to your small tank problems.


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

robbowal said:


> Hi Amberskye
> sorry to hear about the danios always depressing to lose fish when you have tried everything possible.
> what was the Ph stright from the tap?
> With regards to your RO/DI unit i have not used one myself but have looked into them they seem to produce a lot of water a day (around 300ltr max depending on mains pressure) if you are metered for water i would take into consideration the cost of effectivly having a tap on all day(unless you plumb it to a spur tap and only run it when needed like a large britta filter)
> ...


hiya 

Water immediately from tap has a PH of 8.2
If it sits overnight its nearer 9
The PH in the bigger tank which is cycling is 8.2
PH in small tank is 8.2
Seems to get higher once its allowed to rest for a bit.
No I havent tested it after its been through a filter. Do you mean like a Britta? 

Strange thing is, my big tank is cycling perfectly. Ive just been dropping a tiny bit of flake in every evening and adding a further 2 pipette size droplets of ammonia every other day also. Ammonia has been zero for days now :flick:
Last night I put in a big drop of ammonia before I went to bed to see what would happen. This morning theres still zero ammonia and nitrites are a little down from yesterday, so thats good isnt it? Im getting there?
As for the small tank....im thinking its just never going happen. Dont understand really but I did find out the tank is much smaller than LFS said. They told me 10gallon but ive found out no its only 5.5G! So it more than likely overstocked with 6 danios? Maybe thats the problem? Im getting a little disheartened with the small tank. The minute the big one is done the danios are going in there and the little tank is going as far out of my sight as I can get it....lol...ill use it as a QT or something 

The RODI is going to take all the guesswork out of this. At least I'll know that the water going in is pure safe. Therefore any sudden increase in ammonia is going to be down to something stupid IVE done rather that the water...lol..and i wont be battling nitrates anymore..YAY 
It wont be on all the time though. I'll only rig it up once or twice a week to make up a big batch of water for storeage and drinking.


----------



## robbowal (Mar 27, 2011)

Hi Amberskye
Yep try the britta if you have one and see if not you may need to go bottled until you get the RO/DI unit or the large tank is ready.
The Ph will rise as the co2 will off gas from the standing water . Co2 is a slightly acidic gas thats why it is used in planted tanks to lower the ph and provide a source of carbon for plant growth but at high levels it can suffocate the fish. This can be very costly to set up a pressurised system but can be done with a DIY method (search the threads you will find loads of info on this)
Yep the numbers seem to be going in the right direction.
As i mentioned in the PM small bodies of water are more difficult to maintain stably my first tank was 30lt. and it drove me mad with testing and retesting (Murphy's law applies but at a multitude of 10). 
RO/DI units tend to need to be plumbed in to a mains supply normally by means of fitting that cuts a hole and seals itself to an existing water pipe (the small copper ones under the sink for example) and they do have a waste element to them as well usually works out to 100Lt. RO for every 300Ltrs passed through the filter membranes as pressure is required to force the water through (essentially a sieve)
check out this link for some info
http://www.theaquariumsolution.com/installing-d-d-reverse-osmosis-unit


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

robbowal said:


> Hi Amberskye
> Yep try the britta if you have one and see if not you may need to go bottled until you get the RO/DI unit or the large tank is ready.
> The Ph will rise as the co2 will off gas from the standing water . Co2 is a slightly acidic gas thats why it is used in planted tanks to lower the ph and provide a source of carbon for plant growth but at high levels it can suffocate the fish. This can be very costly to set up a pressurised system but can be done with a DIY method (search the threads you will find loads of info on this)
> Yep the numbers seem to be going in the right direction.
> ...


 ....lol...well since you know how to do this..... shall I put the kettle on....?? See you in ten??:smile:
Yeah Im thinking I maybe should have looked harder into this before paying out for the tank but it never crossed my mind that the water here would be too toxic to keep fish in!
Ive read so many posts where I hear people saying "...oh stick some danios in there ....!" and now Ive seen a fish suffer in a cycling tank, it makes me so angry. They didnt ask to be chucked into a toxic tank did they? Or kept in crap water. I just cant be responsible for hurting another one :icon_frow So RODI it has to be. But im crapping myself at the thought of putting in. I may even pay a bit extra and get the company to come and do it...some firms offer onsite help. Lisa + drill = DRAMA!!! lol Lisa +drill + water = PLUMBER hehehehe
Apart from the RODI and growing loads of plants IS there anything Ican do? The only time my Danios are lively and true to their species is when Ive done a waterchange. Its like giving a fainting human smelling salts. Bless them :tongue: I simply cannot have another one die. I love them so much :icon_smil
Yaya...being a typical girl now ...

Do you reckon this RODI is going to be too much for me to fit myself? :icon_idea


----------



## robbowal (Mar 27, 2011)

Hi Lisa
Nope you should have no problem if you follow the instructions you will be fine.
It would be a very quick job for a plumber to do if you decide to get one to install the unit for you plus you get the added benefit of a warranty on the work.
One added benefit of getting the RO unit will be a decent cup of tea and being able to cut down on the jammy dodgers. 
Remember that you will not need to use 100% RO for water changes you can mix with regular tap water to get to an acceptable level of TDS (total dissolved solids) so keep this in mind when looking for RO units with regards to the quantity of their production outputs and where you are going to store it. also remember to check out the running cost of the unit (replacement membranes)
As your large tank is nearly cycled i would move the danios there and knock the small tank on the head as it is causing you more trouble than its worth or look at getting a slightly larger small tank something around 30/40 Ltr.


----------



## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

Glowlight Tetra, Ruby Barb, Blue Gourami, Chain Loach, I have had these five in the same tank before with many other fish just none on your list. I have found over the years that almost all freshwater fish get along and if you have a planted tank it's even better, but there are some exceptions, my advise would be to ask your LFS when purchasing if your not sure. The above post has some good ideas also but the LFS will mostly keep good community fish in the same section and I keep many fish that have adjusted to my water parameters, even the tropics have winter and summer so they do incounter diffrent temps and gh in the wild, rain days, drought, etc.


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

150EH said:


> Glowlight Tetra, Ruby Barb, Blue Gourami, Chain Loach, I have had these five in the same tank before with many other fish just none on your list. I have found over the years that almost all freshwater fish get along and if you have a planted tank it's even better, but there are some exceptions, my advise would be to ask your LFS when purchasing if your not sure. The above post has some good ideas also but the LFS will mostly keep good community fish in the same section and I keep many fish that have adjusted to my water parameters, even the tropics have winter and summer so they do incounter diffrent temps and gh in the wild, rain days, drought, etc.


 
Thanks for your advice, I did take it on board and now have a little group of cherry barbs in my newly cycled tank. They are very shy. Though they take no cr*p from the danios! Bless them. Chain Loaches I really really like. Did you find them ok to keep?


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

robbowal said:


> Hi Lisa
> Nope you should have no problem if you follow the instructions you will be fine.
> It would be a very quick job for a plumber to do if you decide to get one to install the unit for you plus you get the added benefit of a warranty on the work.
> One added benefit of getting the RO unit will be a decent cup of tea and being able to cut down on the jammy dodgers.
> ...


 was about to say I took yr advice and put the danios in the big tank, but you know that already  Im being a propa chicken with the RODI. I just dont trust myself to get the right one and fix it in properly. Thankfully Im not on a water meter so theoretically I could spit out gallons of waste water everyday if needed ( but id probably get a load of eco warriors on my case if I did that lol) Its not the cost either luckily. Its the buying something I know FA about.
Im starting to see why people end up with like 5 tanks or more. You just cant have everything you want in one tank and then you get all these ideas for new setups :red_mouth Im going to try and resist. But.....no...lol...I WILL resist. Glad ur ok. Sounds like work is stressing you out and u need a break. 
Thanks for all yr help roud:roud:


----------



## robbowal (Mar 27, 2011)

No all fine just work being work gotta love 12H night shifts.
just get this tank up and running then you can look at setting up another one (see now your hooked) pardon the pun.
Dont worry about the RO/DI yet if the tank continues to run fine with out it then dont worry about it (your LFS probably has the same water issues and can sell healthy fish) 
As i said before larger bodies of water are easier to maintain (next tank will be bigger:biggrin


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

robbowal said:


> No all fine just work being work gotta love 12H night shifts.
> just get this tank up and running then you can look at setting up another one (see now your hooked) pardon the pun.
> Dont worry about the RO/DI yet if the tank continues to run fine with out it then dont worry about it (your LFS probably has the same water issues and can sell healthy fish)
> As i said before larger bodies of water are easier to maintain (next tank will be bigger:biggrin


 your next tank or mine? lol 
Omg its bloody 1.30am again. I come back on here again and just cant get off lol.
Time for  I really need someone to pull the plug at midnight since Im obviously incapeable of making that executive decison by myself... hehehehe :icon_mrgr:icon_mrgr

Catch u tomoz
:icon_lol:


----------



## robbowal (Mar 27, 2011)

Yours :icon_bigg
just set the alarm clock in a bucket by the door that will get you away from the PC


----------



## amberskye (Apr 22, 2011)

robbowal said:


> Yours :icon_bigg
> just set the alarm clock in a bucket by the door that will get you away from the PC


I darent do that, it would wake my baby girl....BUT.....I have actually stuck a timer on the pc socket! How sad is that? lol I just love this forum. I either need a good man or another tank...hmmmmn....what will give me the most pleasure and least frustration?
Tank it is then  :tongue:


----------



## robbowal (Mar 27, 2011)

Hi Lisa
Well at at least it wont get under your feet all the time then.
how are you getting on with the tank any new additions, plant or otherwise:icon_smil
Robert


----------

