# EI vs. PPS?



## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

In the past I've dosed ferts from premixed-mass-produced-off-the-shelf products from Seachem (Flourish line) and Brightwell Aquatic's. As I'm trying new things with a new setup I started looking into other methods I was avoiding before (EI) mainly because I didn't want to have 'more stuff' taking up space. While looking into EI, I found another option being PPS which I found to be neat. Is there any reason to go EI over PPS or vice versa? Is one more accurate than another? It looks like PPS is a little more straight forward than EI, but I'm not sure if it's as comprehensive as EI.

Thoughts?


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## TekWarren (Oct 6, 2013)

In the simplest of terms my understand is that Perpetual Preservation System is providing just enough nutrients to "maintain" plants. While Estimated Index is always provide just a bit more nutrients than the plants are expected to use with the point being they will always have more than enough. 

I don't know that you would dosing different ferts in either method, but just different amounts. More knowledgeable folk can (and will) correct me


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## PassengerTN (Sep 30, 2015)

From my understanding, PPS Pro doses the estimated amount of nutrients that the plants will consume per day, where as EI you intentionally overdose, which requires a large weekly water change to prevent nutrient build up to possible toxic levels. As far as taking up space, PPS Pro uses 5 different tubs, while EI uses 4. You can dose EI wet or dry FYI.


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

From what I'm seeing PPS uses two 'bottle's one for macro's and one for micro's. EI has one of each of those as well as supplementary bottles so you can dose everything daily with a different bottle per day of the week. Bottles are not the space saving issue, more so ordering a pound of each fert is going to take up space. Again, it's nothing I'm concerned about right now. Before I had constraints due to my apartment and roommates, now I have my own space to do what I want


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## TekWarren (Oct 6, 2013)

I don't use bottles personally, I dose dry ferts kept in thick zip lock type bags that store easy. Never really saw the reason to make up liquid ferts.


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## terran2k (Feb 24, 2009)

Seems to me that the OP is already set on going pps-pro and just looking for validation to do so. A pound of all these ferts will be barely a shoebox full.


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

@terran2k, I'm not looking for validation to go with PPS so please stop assuming. I'm new to dry ferts so I'm looking for more info, that is it. If EI is more comprehensive than PPS, then that is what I'm looking for. I just didn't understand the difference in the two methods until Tek & Passenger responded.
@TekWarren - When you dose dry how do you introduce the ferts to the tank? I'm use to dry ferts in the terrestrial world, so applying dry and it being concentrated in one area plants would get burns. That would be the reason I was looking into making liquid ferts. If you don't need to then dosing dry would make more sense. 

I see a lot of dosing's done by volume (i.e. X fraction of a teaspoon to Y gallons) but is there a way to dose by weight (i.e. X grams/oz per Y gallons)? I see weight being a more consistent measurement than volume.


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## nilocg (Jul 12, 2010)

Edit: My statement below should have said that ei does not require weekly 50% water changes. It's what I meant to say and I can understand why it created some confusion.




PassengerTN said:


> From my understanding, PPS Pro doses the estimated amount of nutrients that the plants will consume per day, where as EI you intentionally overdose, which requires a large weekly water change to prevent nutrient build up to possible toxic levels. As far as taking up space, PPS Pro uses 5 different tubs, while EI uses 4. You can dose EI wet or dry FYI.



EI does not require any water changes, while it is a good idea to do frequent water changes you dont have to. Some people dont and have nice looking tanks. 

Water changes are a good idea whether you dose via the EI method, PPS-PRO method, or you dont dose at all.


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

nilocg said:


> EI does not require any water changes, while it is a good idea to do frequent water changes you dont have to. Some people dont and have nice looking tanks.
> 
> Water changes are a good idea whether you dose via the EI method, PPS-PRO method, or you dont dose at all.


Interesting. Your site was one of the many I've been reading through for the past few days. In your directions you even list water changes on day 7. I get this is all setup to setup situations, but being clueless to this new process I took some of these as cut and dry till I figure out what works for me. Good to know though!


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## lovingHDTV (Oct 15, 2008)

I use EI because I have no way to tell exactly what my plants need. If I want heavy growth, I dose three times per week and do 50% water change each week or two if I'm lazy. If I want slower growth I does once per week and do water changes every 2-3 weeks. It just depends on what I'm looking for.

I have my water change procedure down so it doesn't take much time. I'm lucky enough to be able to just fill the tank with a garden hose and the water parameters, temp, etc are fine year round, and my tank is only 46 gallons.

I dry dose. I have a week pill container, you know the one that has a container for each day of the week. When I do a water change, I use my teaspoon measures and fill each day for the week. Then each day when I feed the fish, I just dump in that one days ferts, macros or micros. Takes < 1 second to dose.

david


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## nilocg (Jul 12, 2010)

Tihsho said:


> Interesting. Your site was one of the many I've been reading through for the past few days. In your directions you even list water changes on day 7. I get this is all setup to setup situations, but being clueless to this new process I took some of these as cut and dry till I figure out what works for me. Good to know though!


It is certainly a good suggestion to do them, and it most all guides about EI you are going to see that a 50% weekly water change is suggested. Its really more of a suggestion to keep up with good tank maintenance than really needing to do so to keep the nutrient levels in check. 

One method or amount of dosing will never work for all tanks. This is the reason that I dont include a sheet with suggested dosing amounts with any order I send out.


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## TekWarren (Oct 6, 2013)

To dry dose, you simply add the ferts right into the water column of the tank: just dump it in and done! I do what David mentioned also. I use a pill "box" and measure out the amount of each fert/ferts for each day I want to dose. I found verticle pill container where each "day container" attaches to the other so I can detach that days container, dump the contents and then screw it in to the bottom so the next day is back on top. -Some containers made messes when I tried to use them.

I've always worked off this article for my measurements (and adjusted as needed): AquaScaping World Magazine - Estimative Index Fertilization Method 



> @TekWarren - When you dose dry how do you introduce the ferts to the tank? I'm use to dry ferts in the terrestrial world, so applying dry and it being concentrated in one area plants would get burns. That would be the reason I was looking into making liquid ferts. If you don't need to then dosing dry would make more sense.
> 
> I see a lot of dosing's done by volume (i.e. X fraction of a teaspoon to Y gallons) but is there a way to dose by weight (i.e. X grams/oz per Y gallons)? I see weight being a more consistent measurement than volume.





lovingHDTV said:


> I dry dose. I have a week pill container, you know the one that has a container for each day of the week. When I do a water change, I use my teaspoon measures and fill each day for the week. Then each day when I feed the fish, I just dump in that one days ferts, macros or micros. Takes < 1 second to dose.
> 
> david


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## lovingHDTV (Oct 15, 2008)

That is what I use for my dosing values as well.

david



TekWarren said:


> To dry dose, you simply add the ferts right into the water column of the tank: just dump it in and done! I do what David mentioned also. I use a pill "box" and measure out the amount of each fert/ferts for each day I want to dose. I found verticle pill container where each "day container" attaches to the other so I can detach that days container, dump the contents and then screw it in to the bottom so the next day is back on top. -Some containers made messes when I tried to use them.
> 
> I've always worked off this article for my measurements (and adjusted as needed): AquaScaping World Magazine - Estimative Index Fertilization Method


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

Thanks guys! This info is a lot of help. I'll be looking to dose EI in a 6.5 gallon so I'll need to figure out weights rather than volumes like I said before. 

When you dump in your dry ferts do any of the ferts make it to the bottom of the tank? As I mentioned before, in the terrestrial world, ferts can burn plants and I don't want to get a layer of dry ferts in a carpet to have it damage the plant. Again, this may not happen in the aquatic world, but I'm asking based off experience with emersed growth and terrestrial growth (from my garden.)


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## nilocg (Jul 12, 2010)

Tihsho said:


> Thanks guys! This info is a lot of help. I'll be looking to dose EI in a 6.5 gallon so I'll need to figure out weights rather than volumes like I said before.
> 
> When you dump in your dry ferts do any of the ferts make it to the bottom of the tank? As I mentioned before, in the terrestrial world, ferts can burn plants and I don't want to get a layer of dry ferts in a carpet to have it damage the plant. Again, this may not happen in the aquatic world, but I'm asking based off experience with emersed growth and terrestrial growth (from my garden.)



For a tank that small you are probably going to want to make a liquid solution. Trying to measure out such small amounts for daily dosing is going to be tedious. Mixing two 500ml bottles(one for macros and one for micros) will last you a very long time.


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

nilocg said:


> For a tank that small you are probably going to want to make a liquid solution. Trying to measure out such small amounts for daily dosing is going to be tedious. Mixing two 500ml bottles(one for macros and one for micros) will last you a very long time.


This makes sense. Now I'm off to find recipes for 500ml, I think your site actually had one @nilocg, and how much of that needs to be dosed daily and a schedule.


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## TekWarren (Oct 6, 2013)

I dry dose my nano planted tank without issue. I've had an Aqeon Evolve 8 for a couple years which is around 5 or 6 gallons. Not trying to dispute @nilocg in any way but for me, it still seems like less hassle just to do dry. You can find really small measuring spoons in some stores or order online.


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## nilocg (Jul 12, 2010)

TekWarren said:


> I dry dose my nano planted tank without issue. I've had an Aqeon Evolve 8 for a couple years which is around 5 or 6 gallons. Not trying to dispute @*nilocg* in any way but for me, it still seems like less hassle just to do dry. You can find really small measuring spoons in some stores or order online.


Ya thats absolutely no problem at all. What amounts do you dose btw?

Bump:


Tihsho said:


> This makes sense. Now I'm off to find recipes for 500ml, I think your site actually had one @*nilocg*, and how much of that needs to be dosed daily and a schedule.


I'll have to get you that recipe tonight.


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

http://www.zorfox.com/calculator/

Clicking the advanced button will allow you to calculate solutions.



nilocg said:


> EI does not require any water changes, while it is a good idea to do frequent water changes you dont have to. Some people dont and have nice looking tanks.


Anecdotal evidence. What about in a tank with a high bioload that has little NO3 uptake, or just any tank that has little NO3 uptake.

The entire premise of EI is to overdose.


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

Audionut said:


> http://www.zorfox.com/calculator/
> 
> Clicking the advanced button will allow you to calculate solutions.


Dead link...



Audionut said:


> Anecdotal evidence. What about in a tank with a high bioload that has little NO3 uptake, or just any tank that has little NO3 uptake.
> 
> The entire premise of EI is to overdose.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

I suppose another bit of info to add to the mix.... or confuse things a bit, LOL. What kind of plants are you planning on putting in your tank? Obviously you probably are not thinking of an Amazon Sword. The reason I say that is because my 75 gallon tank has Amazon Swords, Melon Swords, Crypts, Java Ferns and an Anubious. The PPS Pro methods suits my tank well. If you are thinking about fast growing stems, then they are going to consume nutrients (food) faster and would be a better candidate for EI Method.


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

Tihsho said:


> Dead link...


Oh, that's a shame. Zorfox the creator is a member here, I'll PM him.

http://rotalabutterfly.com/test/

There's also this one although I haven't used it. 

To be safe, just run some calculations from more then one calculator, if they're the same, it's probably the right maths.


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

Immortal1 said:


> I suppose another bit of info to add to the mix.... or confuse things a bit, LOL. What kind of plants are you planning on putting in your tank? Obviously you probably are not thinking of an Amazon Sword. The reason I say that is because my 75 gallon tank has Amazon Swords, Melon Swords, Crypts, Java Ferns and an Anubious. The PPS Pro methods suits my tank well. If you are thinking about fast growing stems, then they are going to consume nutrients (food) faster and would be a better candidate for EI Method.


I'm planning on stems, a few low carpeting species, and erios. I'll probably end up with some mosses, needle/widelov Java fern, anubias, and Buces as well but they are not going to explode like the stems and carpeting species should with EI.



Audionut said:


> Oh, that's a shame. Zorfox the creator is a member here, I'll PM him.
> 
> http://rotalabutterfly.com/test/
> 
> ...


Thanks! I really appreciate the information.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

PPS google site.
https://sites.google.com/site/aquaticplantfertilizer/home/pps-pro


I ran with PPS classic dosing.
Once I purchased ferts from NilocG dosing changed.
Seems I had a deficiency and always nitrate heavy.
Now have been able to move to PPS Pro dosing schedule.


Water changes are now based on TDS not high NO3.


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## nilocg (Jul 12, 2010)

Audionut said:


> http://www.zorfox.com/calculator/
> 
> Clicking the advanced button will allow you to calculate solutions.
> 
> ...



This is not the first and will certainly not be the last time I have been called a name, but it's one that I doubt Mr. Tom Barr has been called too often. Mr. Barr himself says exactly as I have stated(or at least close to what I said). No one said you shouldn't do them, but weekly 50% water changes is not 100% required. It's certainly a good idea but I think saying they are absolutely necessary on a weekly basis, is.........


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## WickedOdie (Aug 15, 2015)

nilocg said:


> This is not the first and will certainly not be the last time I have been called a name, but it's one that I doubt Mr. Tom Barr has been called too often. Mr. Barr himself says exactly as I have stated(or at least close to what I said). No one said you shouldn't do them, but weekly 50% water changes is not 100% required. It's certainly a good idea but I think saying they are absolutely necessary on a weekly basis, is.........


I don't believe he called you a name, but insinuated the premise behind not doing a water change was just that.

However putting in excess nutrients in weekly without doing a water change most definitely will have drastic effects on your livestock. It would be like you eating too many multi vitamins. Eventually you'll OD.


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## nilocg (Jul 12, 2010)

Also as I have already stated one dosing method is never going to work for every tank. Some tanks will be perfectly fine without weekly water changes, other maybe not so much.


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## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

I had to make this decision just recently, and both of the systems have strengths and weaknesses. PPS-PRO needs to be carefully measured and dosed, while EI can kill your fish because you forgot to do a water change. I went with PPS-PRO because there is no need to fine-tune your dosing with it, it is already calculated, and it is easy to increase or decrase dosage. Although there are many much smarter people on this forum. @nilocg sells this stuff so he is pretty knowledgeable on this stuff, i personally would buy ferts from him, he has the best prices and pretty fast shipping. I wish you good luck with your tank


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## nilocg (Jul 12, 2010)

WickedOdie said:


> I don't believe he called you a name, but insinuated the premise behind not doing a water change was just that.
> 
> However putting in excess nutrients in weekly without doing a water change most definitely will have drastic effects on your livestock. It would be like you eating too many multi vitamins. Eventually you'll OD.


Maybe so, maybe not. Again, water changes are a good idea, I've never said they weren't. I'm not the brains behind the method, that would be Mr. Tom Barr, and he says they aren't 100% necessary, but again does suggest them. Doing weekly water changes with the PPS-PRO method would also be a good idea, but they aren't suggested.


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## WickedOdie (Aug 15, 2015)

nilocg said:


> Also as I have already stated one dosing method is never going to work for every tank. Some tanks will be perfectly fine without weekly water changes, other maybe not so much.


I was merely just trying to diffuse a situation before it got out of hand. I myself was banned for 10 days on this forum site because something I said was taken completely the wrong way and someone read between the lines and made up their own idea of what I said and I was punished for it. I'm just trying to help.


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

nilocg said:


> This is not the first and will certainly not be the last time I have been called a name,


I didn't call you anything Sir.




nilocg said:


> No one said you shouldn't do them, but weekly 50% water changes is not 100% required.


Sure, but this is a completely different statement to your last.



nilocg said:


> EI does not require any water changes, while it is a good idea to do frequent water changes you dont have to. Some people dont and have nice looking tanks.


Since you clearly have well founded respect around here, all I suggest is that you probably respect the respect that you are given, and be sure to make clear statements.

Cheers.


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## nilocg (Jul 12, 2010)

WickedOdie said:


> I was merely just trying to diffuse a situation before it got out of hand. I myself was banned for 10 days on this forum site because something I said was taken completely the wrong way and someone read between the lines and made up their own idea of what I said and I was punished for it. I'm just trying to help.


I hear ya, I don't take anything personally, it's a friendly discussion.

Bump:


Audionut said:


> I didn't call you anything Sir.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I misspoke, I apologize, my statement should have said" ei does not require weekly 50% water changes".


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Also running PPS Pro. Also am a nilocg customer. For me, it seems to be a good system. I am running mostly swords, crypts, java ferns, anubus and a few faster growing stems. 
If I was running a tank full of stems, likely I would be on the EI system.


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

@nilocg, regardless of the method you're getting my business just FYI, haha. Your product page is the most comprehensive and you've been very fourth right with your info.


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## randym (Sep 20, 2015)

Been wondering about this, and this thread seems as good a place as any to ask...

How do shrimp handle EI dosing? A couple of people here have mentioned that shrimp like stability, and so they minimize water changes, doing only small amounts every month or so.

I've noticed the same. My shrimp don't seem to like large water changes. Does anyone use EI dosing with shrimp?


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

Please keep the discussion relevant; no name calling is needed.

I cleaned up this thread once, and will close this thread if it gets off topic again.


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## nilocg (Jul 12, 2010)

randym said:


> Been wondering about this, and this thread seems as good a place as any to ask...
> 
> How do shrimp handle EI dosing? A couple of people here have mentioned that shrimp like stability, and so they minimize water changes, doing only small amounts every month or so.
> 
> I've noticed the same. My shrimp don't seem to like large water changes. Does anyone use EI dosing with shrimp?



I have dosed ei in one of my shrimp tanks without any issues, but other people have had issues with it. If it were expensive sensitive shrimp I probably wouldnt do it personally. But with my CRS/CBS they seemed fine.


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

nilocg said:


> The more I look at it maybe I did, my statement should have said" ei does not require weekly 50% water changes".


Here's my take on it.

50% water changes cover all bases. It should always be recommended, because it covers off _every_ knowledge level. If you (or I or whoever) forgets to suitably consider the knowledge level of those that we respond to, telling them to do 50% water changes with EI covers our arses.

EI was created on the basis that it covers the needs of almost everyone, and it is relatively simple. EI is adaptable in many ways, but this adaption requires _some_ knowledge, rather then simply being able to follow (relatively) simple instructions. 

This industry is chock full of people who have the excellent skill of repeating things they read, without understanding what they are repeating. It should be clear the dangers involved with this.



nilocg said:


> If you feel I misspoke, I apologize.


Lively discussion is good discussion, provided it doesn't get personal. Please accept mine in return for not ensuring my post could not be construed in the manner it did. You deserve that respect for what you provide to this community.

Good to see the mods jumping in, even though we worked through it ourselves. :icon_roll


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## nilocg (Jul 12, 2010)

Audionut said:


> Here's my take on it.
> 
> 50% water changes cover all bases. It should always be recommended, because it covers off _every_ knowledge level. If you (or I or whoever) forgets to suitably consider the knowledge level of those that we respond to, telling them to do 50% water changes with EI covers our arses.
> 
> ...


Here here!!


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

Shouldn't this bickering end with "EI for everyone!" ?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Tihsho said:


> Shouldn't this bickering end with "EI for everyone!" ?


LOL, yes it should. But then us PPS-Pro guys are left out :crying:
Regardless, this is still a good thread to keep for reference. roud:


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

Does anyone have a calculator to calculate macros and micros proportions in relation to a 500ml solution? As in how much volume of product needs to be mixed with 500ml of RO/DI to get a solution that can be used instead of dry dosing? Also, how much of that solution (in ml) needs to get dosed to a tank of X volume?

The reason I ask is not only to do daily liquid dosing, but to use an automated doser.


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## nilocg (Jul 12, 2010)

I have one on my desktop at home that I trust, I can help you when i get home tonight. I dont trust any of the ones currently up on the web right now.


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

Interesting theory regarding EI does not 100% need 50% WC.
I`m under the impression EI is based on resetting the nutrient level due to it`s intentional over dosing, by large WC of 50% or more.
The PPS system does not 100% need large WC like EI since theoretically there is no excess of nutrients.
Where did I get this wrong?


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## bereninga (Mar 18, 2006)

Tihsho said:


> Does anyone have a calculator to calculate macros and micros proportions in relation to a 500ml solution? As in how much volume of product needs to be mixed with 500ml of RO/DI to get a solution that can be used instead of dry dosing? Also, how much of that solution (in ml) needs to get dosed to a tank of X volume?
> 
> The reason I ask is not only to do daily liquid dosing, but to use an automated doser.


Aquatic Plants Fertilization Calculator | Aquarium Tools

Relax, folks! We're debating about fertilizing a planted tank. No need for fighting words.


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## bereninga (Mar 18, 2006)

WickedOdie said:


> I don't believe he called you a name, but insinuated the premise behind not doing a water change was just that.
> 
> However putting in excess nutrients in weekly without doing a water change most definitely will have drastic effects on your livestock. It would be like you eating too many multi vitamins. Eventually you'll OD.


I see what you did there in your last sentence Odie (@WickedOdie). lol


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## Dropline (Dec 30, 2014)

Tihsho said:


> Does anyone have a calculator to calculate macros and micros proportions in relation to a 500ml solution? As in how much volume of product needs to be mixed with 500ml of RO/DI to get a solution that can be used instead of dry dosing? Also, how much of that solution (in ml) needs to get dosed to a tank of X volume?
> 
> The reason I ask is not only to do daily liquid dosing, but to use an automated doser.


I found it easiest to mix them by "Dose" so instead of 500ml and 15ml dose (33.33 doses), I went with the dry ingredients for "15 doses" then filled to the "15oz" line and dose 1oz\dose. Simplified the math a LOT. I also got my ingredients from NilocG and use his container and also 15doses works perfect for me 3\week so 5 weeks between refills. I only did this on Macro, I mixed Micro before I thought about it. 

For AutoDosing (In theory I do NOT do this) do the same, but like this. Run the dosing pump as long as it will normally run for one feeding then let it flow WATER into a container. Measure THAT and that is one dose worth. Using simple math lets say that is 2oz and your dosing container is 32oz. Mix up enough dry ferts for 16 daily dose servings and then add to dosing container and fill it up so the TOTAL is 32oz. Every day 2oz and 1/16th of the ferts added. 

Hope this helps!!
Tom


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

Thanks @Dropline! I've got the general idea worked out for automated dosing. I never thought of using less water to dilute, but that said does everything dilute in less water? Is it safer to dose say (hypothetically) 1 tablespoon of ferts diluted in 15ml's of water because it spreads in the water column faster, than 1 tablespoon of ferts diluted in 5ml's of water? I look at it like it's adding a concentrate to a tank, which I'm not sure I like. If there are no adverse affects, then I'm all for it as I'll be making batches of dilutions for the dosing setup.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

charlie 1 said:


> Interesting theory regarding EI does not 100% need 50% WC.
> I`m under the impression EI is based on resetting the nutrient level due to it`s intentional over dosing, by large WC of 50% or more.
> The PPS system does not 100% need large WC like EI since theoretically there is no excess of nutrients.
> Where did I get this wrong?


Charlie1, 

It's all about interpretation I think. I'd go with most people get it wrong by considering the guidelines of EI as set rules. No one says you can't "over dose" less, or even not overdose. That's why you see some people claim they're on 1/3 EI, 1/2 EI, EI daily, etc etc. Tom himself has said if you cut down EI, it'll resemble PPS .. or maybe he said it the other way around  But then I guess the argument is that it's no longer EI...


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## Dropline (Dec 30, 2014)

Tihsho said:


> Thanks @*Dropline*! I've got the general idea worked out for automated dosing. I never thought of using less water to dilute, but that said does everything dilute in less water? Is it safer to dose say (hypothetically) 1 tablespoon of ferts diluted in 15ml's of water because it spreads in the water column faster, than 1 tablespoon of ferts diluted in 5ml's of water? I look at it like it's adding a concentrate to a tank, which I'm not sure I like. If there are no adverse affects, then I'm all for it as I'll be making batches of dilutions for the dosing setup.


1oz is MORE than 15ml (15ml is about 1/2oz), so it mixes easier actually. 

500ml/15ml=33.33 doses (500ml= ~16.9oz)
15oz/1oz=15 doses 

Also 500ml fills the container to the TOP, 15oz leaves some space to mix easier also.

EDIT>> IF it dissolves then lower water is not a big deal, think of it THIS WAY... people dose DRY so that is NO WATER.


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

Sorry @Dropline I missed the ml to oz swap you had in your post. I'll keep that in mind as that does make things easier!


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## Dropline (Dec 30, 2014)

Tihsho said:


> Sorry @*Dropline* I missed the ml to oz swap you had in your post. I'll keep that in mind as that does make things easier!


If you get from NilocG the container has 1oz on one side 30ml on the other (Well 15\30ml).  The measurements on the side are also in OZ, so that just made sense to me to use oz instead of ml.


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## nilocg (Jul 12, 2010)

charlie 1 said:


> Interesting theory regarding EI does not 100% need 50% WC.
> I`m under the impression EI is based on resetting the nutrient level due to it`s intentional over dosing, by large WC of 50% or more.
> The PPS system does not 100% need large WC like EI since theoretically there is no excess of nutrients.
> Where did I get this wrong?


You didnt get it wrong, I initially misspoke by saying EI didnt need water changes, what I really meant is that there is no requirement for weekly water changes like many people seem to believe. 50% water changes are suggested but some tanks will be ok with bimonthly or even monthly water changes, others not so much. Tom Barr is the one who invented EI and says the same himself(Im really just regurgitating what he said). Should you do them? Yes. Do you have to? No.

Water changes are a very good idea whether you dose via EI, PPS or you dont dose at all.


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

ipkiss said:


> Charlie1,
> 
> It's all about interpretation I think. I'd go with most people get it wrong by considering the guidelines of EI as set rules. No one says you can't "over dose" less, or even not overdose. That's why you see some people claim they're on 1/3 EI, 1/2 EI, EI daily, etc etc. Tom himself has said if you cut down EI, it'll resemble PPS .. or maybe he said it the other way around  *But then I guess the argument is that it's no longer EI*...


Exactly


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

charlie 1 said:


> Exactly



Ha, to that I say,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl0hMfqNQ-g 

to paraphrase... 

EI is more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules ... 

I mean heck, the name is *Estimative* Index. You can have all sorts of estimations.


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## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

I dont know if anyone said this, but if you dont want to fiddle with the amounts of EI you need to get it in balance, i believe that PPS is superior. I have just started and i dont know much about planted tanks so i elected to do PPS because it can be simply calculated and dosage can be upped or decreased due to plant needs. Im not the smartest one here though


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## Dropline (Dec 30, 2014)

sohankpatel said:


> I dont know if anyone said this, but if you dont want to fiddle with the amounts of EI you need to get it in balance, i believe that PPS is superior. I have just started and i dont know much about planted tanks so i elected to do PPS because it can be simply calculated and dosage can be upped or decreased due to plant needs. Im not the smartest one here though



Strange, how is that different? "_if you dont want to fiddle with the amounts of EI_" and "_calculated and dosage can be upped or decreased due to plant needs_". 


I looked at both, and did a modified EI (Half the KNO3 and more K2SO4 to make us the missing Potassium) and it seems to be working for me. Either one of them the recipe is a starting point, every tank is a unique situation and will need some adjustments. 


Well maybe not a high light, high CO2 "High Tech" being to me it seems those run more like a machine with the plants just going with the flow, those in theory should work with the base EI numbers but also based on bioload of the critters.


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## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

Dropline said:


> Strange, how is that different? "_if you dont want to fiddle with the amounts of EI_" and "_calculated and dosage can be upped or decreased due to plant needs_".
> 
> 
> I looked at both, and did a modified EI (Half the KNO3 and more K2SO4 to make us the missing Potassium) and it seems to be working for me. Either one of them the recipe is a starting point, every tank is a unique situation and will need some adjustments.
> ...


What i meant was that with EI people sometimes change the amount of specific ferts that they are adding, its easier just to up the entire dosage with PPS, sorry if i wasnt clear.


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## Dropline (Dec 30, 2014)

sohankpatel said:


> What i meant was that with EI people sometimes change the amount of specific ferts that they are adding, its easier just to up the entire dosage with PPS, sorry if i wasnt clear.


Ok, I see where your going on that. Well with EI the Micro would be pretty much the same as with PPS just adjust the dose. 
I still think changing the ratio for MACRO is better then just upping\lowering the entire dose. 

Using me as an example, my substrate is inert (Some Osmocote and a bunch of clay but mostly just gravel) and my Nitrates where always high, that is why I 1st looked into plants. Well the plants do eat most of it now but not as fast as a full EI dose would bring them back up. So adjusting NO3 by the "Dose" would lower everything else as well and I know I am missing elsewhere. 


Just saying, I think mixing is really the way to tune it right for each tank and that is why I went with 1oz dose instead of 15ml/0.5oz (Go through 1st bottle faster). I am sure I will adjust again ext mix and when I add the mineralized topsoil sitting in my garage I will adjust again.


Not trying to argue, just trying to point out that adjusting the mix instead of overall dose would target whatever you need or have too much of and at least to me that seems better... Your mileage may vary.


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

ipkiss said:


> Ha, to that I say,
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl0hMfqNQ-g
> 
> ...


My friend, i never once thought or said it was a rule, i have being using the EI approach for a very long time.
I`m not going to get into back & forth, but some of the suggestions i see here is a contradiction of the message of EI


> The Estimative index is a simple method to dose nutrients for any tank without test kits. In a nut shell, the aquarist doses frequently to prevent anything from running out (plant deficiency) and does large weekly water changes to prevent any build up (Plant inhibition). In this manner, we can easily maintain a close approximation or an “estimation index” of the nutrient levels during the week, not too high, not too low


I have been using it long enough to know when i can modify it as needed, the inexperienced will follow the suggested dosing regime & take the suggestion that large water changes are not 100% needed resulting in problems & frustration.
I`m out


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

Does EI dosing start *Day 1* of a flooded tank post DSM?


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## nilocg (Jul 12, 2010)

Tihsho said:


> Does EI dosing start *Day 1* of a flooded tank post DSM?



Yes start it right away.


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

@nilocg, did you find those proportions yet that you mentioned you were going to look for?


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

Back up: http://www.zorfox.com/calculator/


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

@Audionut, guess you got the owner to get the site back up  
@nilocg, I'd still like to see your proportions to compare to the calculators out there.


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

I've checked the maths on that calculator, it's sound.


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## nilocg (Jul 12, 2010)

Tihsho said:


> @*Audionut*, guess you got the owner to get the site back up
> @*nilocg*, I'd still like to see your proportions to compare to the calculators out there.



Sorry about that. The calculator that i use is also made by zorfox so you are going to get the same numbers as me, but if you tell me what size tank you have I will run the numbers.


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

@nilocg, no need if it's the same.

So I'm guessing I need to calculate for the total volume of the system then, correct? Why do I say that? Because I have a 6.5 gallon tank + a .75 gallon canister + 2.5 gallon sump + .5 gallons in hosing (estimate) to a total of 10.25 gallons. I figure dosing for 6.5 gallons isn't enough as there are close to 4 gallons of dilution.


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

Yeah you want to dose for total water volume.


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## Dropline (Dec 30, 2014)

Also do not forget to subtract the water displaced by hardscape and substrate if you want to get it as close as you can.


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

Dropline said:


> Also do not forget to subtract the water displaced by hardscape and substrate if you want to get it as close as you can.


Good call!


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## redavalanche (Dec 7, 2014)

Stupid question. People say 1/4 or 1/3 E.I.
Is that to mean 1/3 the time(days)? or 1/3 the suggested amount of a full dose?

I read then forget.
Good news, I know what suggested, recommended and 100% means.


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## Dropline (Dec 30, 2014)

Usually 1/3 dose, some do half dose and add 2 times each a week.
Either way its 1 "standard" dose for the week. Could even do one full dose, but I feel spread out is better being some things break down at different rates.

If you did half dose 2 times I would do macro on water change day, micro next day, skip a day then start over. 2 days no ferts before water change. I hope that makes sense on either of these being 1 full dose/week.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

redavalanche said:


> Stupid question. People say 1/4 or 1/3 E.I.
> Is that to mean 1/3 the time(days)? or 1/3 the suggested amount of a full dose?


When I recommend 1/3 dose, what I mean is reduce the amount or solution/concentration to 1/3. I think your'e better off dosing 2-3 times per week. The reason is that many of the micro nutrients are chealated. 

What this means is that those elements will not remain available to plants without protection. 

Imagine putting three pieces of raw steel outside in a damp environment. Add nothing to one (no chealation), cover the second with vegetable oil and then paint the third.

The oil and paint represent chealators. The unprotected piece will start to rust right away without protection. The vegatable oil is a weaker "chealator" than paint so it won't last as long.

Chealates work in a similar fashion. Some are stronger than others. PH also plays a role. The more common ones are gluconate, EDTA and DTPA listed from weakest to strongest. DTPA being the most resistant to oxidation.

Even with protection those elements may only last a couple of days or so depending on your PH. So this is one reason I think dosing on a regular basis makes more sense. It also helps keep you on a schedule. Your more likely to do something everyday than once a week or month. Miss one day no big deal. However, if you dose once a week and miss a dose...it can be a big deal.

Bump:


Tihsho said:


> @Audionut, guess you got the owner to get the site back up
> @nilocg, I'd still like to see your proportions to compare to the calculators out there.


Actually, when I couldn't check my Email I checked. Apparently, providers like to be paid :wink2:. I never updated my billing information when I got a new debit card.

I would suggest trying my Windows based calculator rather than the online one. I'll be updating the Windows application. The development environment I used for the online version is just to hard to use and full of bugs.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

I have been dosing PPS-Pro and contemplating changing to EI.
PPS solutions recipes are very standard and almost all the same.
Dosing is 1ml. per 10 gallons.


While researching EI solution recipes they are almost all different.
If I where to make 500ml. EI solution wanting to dose 1ml. per 10 gallon what would be the gram quantities to make the solution?
KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4, MgSO4 being the involved compounds.


Any help would be appreciated.


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

@Zorfox I get consistent download errors with the Windows Based Calculator links.


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

Both download links working here.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Appears to be working alright.


Now I can begin some comparison to the PPS-Pro method.


Thanks!


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

Interesting. I couldn't download it via Chrome, but it works just fine with FireFox.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

Maryland Guppy said:


> While researching EI solution recipes they are almost all different.
> If I where to make 500ml. EI solution wanting to dose 1ml. per 10 gallon what would be the gram quantities to make the solution?
> KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4, MgSO4 being the involved compounds.
> 
> ...


The EI solutions should actually be all the same. However, it's not possible to create an EI solution that can be dosed at 1ml per 10 gallons.

Each fertilizer has a specific solubility in water. To create an EI solution it simply requires more water. Physics is the ultimate determining factor.

You can mix up any solution you like using the numbers located here, Dry dosing and Nutrient Solution Recipes. If you want to understand more about EI read this basic synopsis, The EI Concept explained.




Tihsho said:


> @Zorfox I get consistent download errors with the Windows Based Calculator links.


It's most likely your antivirus. Most AV programs have a list of safe applications (executable). If the program you want is not in the list it will block it. Since this is a very obscure program with few downloads it's not in the list. Downloading the second link for the zip file can prevent this. Your antivirus may still complain but the file is safe. It simply does not have thousands of downloads and history to tell the antivirus it's safe.


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

Can't be the AV because it's working on one browser and not the other. Might be security settings on Chrome? Or download signatures on Chrome?


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## plantetra (May 17, 2014)

Download the zip file. Chrome will not let you download the exe file and the antivirus is also quarantining the program.


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

plantetra said:


> Download the zip file. Chrome will not let you download the exe file and the antivirus is also quarantining the program.


 @plantetra, if you look above I responded that I got it working under Firefox. Or look below as I'll quote my response.



Tihsho said:


> Interesting. I couldn't download it via Chrome, but it works just fine with FireFox.


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## plantetra (May 17, 2014)

Tihsho said:


> @plantetra, if you look above I responded that I got it working under Firefox. Or look below as I'll quote my response.


Sorry, I missed the quote. I was confirming what Tihsho mentioned right above my post. :smile2:
I have had this issues with few other files too. I had to use IE.


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## redavalanche (Dec 7, 2014)

Thanks for answering my question guys.
You did not confuse me, I was already confused. 
Thanks.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

All of those dosing methods work, there are gorgeous EI tanks, PPS tanks and Flourish tanks. The question is, how do you determine which one is the best then? Cost wise? Convenience? Growth speed vs Colour? Find what works for you.


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## AboveBeyond (Aug 31, 2015)

Dropline said:


> Also do not forget to subtract the water displaced by hardscape and substrate if you want to get it as close as you can.


I was wondering about this. I have a 50 gallon tank with 3-5inch substrate + I don't fill it all the way to the top....so I guesstimate I have really 45 gallons or so.

Also, I ordered both EI and PPS package from Nilocg but I will try the weekly low-light EI first and see how it goes after a couple months. :smile2:


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

Has anyone tried misting with an EI liquid solution during their DSM? I'm considering it, but I'm not sure if it would burn leaves or kick start BGA on glass and substrate.


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