# Shrimp dead within 30 min of being added to tank



## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

So I ordered home bred shrimp form a forum member here on TPT. They came today well and alive. I drip acclimated them for about an hour. I added them to the tank and left them with the lights off. I came back a little later and found one dead. I figured that this wasn't a big deal because I saw another swimming behind it. I removed it and left again. I came back later and found two dead. Decided to investigate further and found the remains of all 5 of the shrimp I ordered. I came back after removing them and found 0 ammonia 0 nitrites ph of 7.4-7.6 and a temp of 78 I didn't test my Gh or kh because they wouldn't kill the shrimp at the levels I had them at when I tested earlier( Gh 11 kh 12-13) I want to try again so a but don't know what went wrong, there was also no copper in the tank. Might go to my LFS tomorrow and see what they have to say and possibly purchase new ones if I can figure things out by then. I really need to solve this problem because it is very discouraging for a beginner to have to scoop out dead shrimp. If my next batch fails I might just not try again. So this is very important that I get it right this time. Not having a great time so far in the fishkeeping hobby.:frown2:🦐


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Guessing the drip acclimation?

Dan


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Why would that be the problem?


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Your TDS may be through the roof... so could have been osmotic shock..


Was this a brand new tank or did it ever contain other inhabitants? Was copper ever used in the tank? Even before you set it up for shrimp?


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

landonnap said:


> Why would that be the problem?


Because of the ammonia toxicity from the change in PH when you drip acclimate. Just a thought not saying its the cause. 

Dan


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## Yukiharu (May 3, 2014)

gH and kH are pretty high. Unless the breeder also does 78F I'd lower it closer to 72-74 to be safe. Contrary to popular belief dwarf shrimps do fine in room temperature.


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## redavalanche (Dec 7, 2014)

landonnap said:


> :frown2:🦐


Just want to share a short thought that may give you some hope for the next batch of shrimps and show they can be hardy. Recently ordered some shrimp myself and although I receive package after package of goodies from the USPS this particular Priority shrimp package was delayed and the shrimps were in transit for 6 days. 
:crying:
Thought for sure they would be dead and if they make it for sure they will have problems. Not the case at all. They appear happy and are mingling with tank mates for several days now. Would have never thought it would work out but apparently it did. Hope you get it worked out.
.


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## Nigel95 (Mar 5, 2017)

Maybe buy a tds pen and drip acclimatization till container water matches tank water with tds.


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## Corydoradaxplora (Mar 31, 2017)

I would have to agree on osmotic shock. Are you still using ph down? Before adding more shrimp I would do a 90-100% water change to rid the water of any unneeded products that could be hanging around. Definitely a must to test the water they come in. If it is off by a ph of 1 or more and/or tds level is off by 50 or more, spend a few hours acclimating them. Some may think this ridiculous, but I have acclimated RCS for 8 hours before. Ph of the water they came in was more than 1 lower and TDS 225 more than mine. One even got the "band of death" and then molted right out, the molt separating at that very spot. Don't get too discouraged, just try to learn what you can and move on. I think a whole lot of people kill some, if not all of the first shrimp they keep. Also after adding them to the tank, if you have to add water again, drip it into the tank. This will allow them to continue acclimating well and they will molt normally. Remember, patience is key! You can do this!


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## nel (Jan 23, 2016)

Dman911 said:


> Because of the ammonia toxicity from the change in PH when you drip acclimate. Just a thought not saying its the cause.
> 
> Dan


I have to say, that I stopped doing drip acclimatization for fish and shrimp some time ago and it's better this way. Match the temperature by putting the bag into your tank, then just catch fish/shrimp with a net and toss them into the tank. No more drip acclimatization for me. Getting used to new parameters will take weeks, not hours, it doesn't really help so much doing drip, yet it can be really harmful with the ammonia (in the bag pH is dropping drastically making ammonia not harmful, when you add normal water - pH goes up, ammonia starts to harm fish/shrimp).


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

nel said:


> I have to say, that I stopped doing drip acclimatization for fish and shrimp some time ago and it's better this way. Match the temperature by putting the bag into your tank, then just catch fish/shrimp with a net and toss them into the tank. No more drip acclimatization for me. Getting used to new parameters will take weeks, not hours, it doesn't really help so much doing drip, yet it can be really harmful with the ammonia (in the bag pH is dropping drastically making ammonia not harmful, when you add normal water - pH goes up, ammonia starts to harm fish/shrimp).


I would usually agree, but shrimp have a relatively low bio-load so I don't think ammonia would get super high. The other thing is that if your water parameters are significantly different to those they came from, osmotic shock is definitely something to be worried about and drip acclimation may be better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Do you think it might be something undetectable, like an unexpected encounter with soapy hands? I do have to day I haven't tested my tds so that might be it but the water in the cup I was using tripled before I put them in, with three of them they acted dead in the cup then when I put them the tank they swam away. Might that have anything to do with it?


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## jjposko (Feb 15, 2015)

I think we need a bit more information to help. What type of shrimp neocaridina or caridina? Caridina have a higher learning curve when starting with them. If your LFS can test water I would take a sample to make sure your readings are inline with what they find. Are you adding any ferts or medicine at this time? Any other fish in the tank with the shrimp? How long has the tank been setup? What type of substrate and is it heavily planted? Just some things to think about.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Neocaridina. No other fish, 5 gallon planted. No ferts, Co2 or medicine. Been set up 3 weeks today. Cycled and thought it was ready for action.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Set up how? Substrate? How'd you 'cycle' it? Which kit did you use to test water parameters?

GH and KH are extremely important when it comes to shrimp, as others have suggested. What's your current GH & KH and which specific kit did you use to test? What about GH & KH of the origin tank/water the shrimp were in?

Measured TDS?


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Well all my tests are API liquid tests. I have Fluval shrimp stratum. I added some 10% ammonia and ATM colony and waited. I can't answer most of those other questions right now, maybe later


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Ok. I'm on my way to my LFS and probably going to get more shrimp. Any tips that will help this time? Ps I am bringing water for them to test so hopefully everything is ok.


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## Corydoradaxplora (Mar 31, 2017)

I am hoping you used ammonia with no surfactants or detergent. The shrimp stratum should lower your ph. Shrimp really need stability to live. I would not recommend adding them until you figure out what's up with the water. If you already got them by the time you read this then don't mess with the tank water unless you really have to until they are acclimated for a week or so.


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## TropicalAquarist (Jun 9, 2015)

I'd also not recommend adding anything else so soon!

Which ammonia did you use? That sounds what might be the root cause of your issues.

Also Fluval shrimp Stratum is kind of a misleading name... It is made for Caradinia shrimp (Crystal Red/Black etc) as it lowers the ph and Kh. So perfect for Caradinia, BUT problematic for neos, who need higher ph/Kh...

If you add any Kh/ph boosting additives it will cause fluctuations which can be fatal for the shrimp. 

So it's best to either replace your substrate of you want to keep neos...


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Fluval Shrimp Stratum
Ammonia???
Seachem Equilibrium
Baking Soda
pH Down


Lot of things going on... and guessing that a water change wasn't done as was already recommended prior to receiving said shrimp....


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Sorry, I didn't see your comments. I have added three more Bloody Mary Shrimp. The owner of the store(Fishy Bizness) really knows his stuff and told me that the water was so similar that they only needed to be floated for 15. I even called after I got home to make sure that's what I was supposed to do. My ammonia was Ace Hardware 10% Ammonia. A comment online specifically said it was perfect for cycling fish tanks and gave it 5 stars. I'm praying that these live and that everything works out good. Ps if things don't go well here then I will definitely follow up on all of your suggestions. Thanks, wish me Luck! Definitely hoping these guys pull through.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

You did use the correct ammonia! Some people don't!


Here's hoping the new shrimp do well!


Just, for future reference, since you *ARE* using Fluval Shrimp Stratum, you should *ONLY* add GH+, nothing that ads KH. Using KH in the tank causes pH spikes and crashes, add in the pH Down and it's just a freakin mess!

Neos *do* prefer some KH, but unless you are switching out the Stratum for sand, don't ad anything that ads KH! Over time, as you do water changes, the pH may lower.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Ok.
News flash. All the new shrimp died while I was out. I don't know if I can keep this up?


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## Corydoradaxplora (Mar 31, 2017)

landonnap said:


> Ok.
> News flash. All the new shrimp died while I was out. I don't know if I can keep this up?


Since that store owner told you to just float em for 15 and they died so quick, I say return to the store with the shrimp. You didn't buy that tank from some gypsies on the side of the road did you?


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

I bought the tank from amazon and washed it and everything else very thoroughly. At this point I dont think another batch is in my future. Thanks for all the help


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

patience is key... How long did you have your tank running?

Dan


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

3 weeks and it was completely cycled and loaded with biofilm


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## Cody LetsBoogie Dalton (Jan 19, 2017)

I lost a bunch of cherries because I was having rust get into the water from a light stand I was using. Hard metals and all that...wish I knew that before...


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Did you seed the filter? If not I'm going to be the one to say nope it was not fully cycled (if it was that crap in a bottle then you learned it does nothing) . I'm not saying it to be an ass but sometimes we want stuff to be done so bad that we lean in the direction we want when testing or assuming thing are ready. I have done it many times and I just did it a couple weeks ago and ended up with ich. 3 weeks is not enough to mature an aquarium and this is your problem. I would suggest concentrating on plants (mosses, stems, whatever) for about a month and keep a small number of fish just to keep the tank going. 6.6 gal is not much water and things can swing wildly fast so all changes should be done one at a time and 1 week apart until the tank is more mature with very stable conditions and then start with some hardy shrimp like Amano or cherry to get a feel for them before dumping loads of $$$ on higher quality. Don't give up but rather learn from it. I more than most understand the desire to have and achieve right now but that rarely is successful in this hobby. Take a deep breath and be patient it will come.

Dan


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Oh my goodness.

*Stop adding shrimp to your tank.* Stop.

Get things in order. Figure out what's up. Know the ins and outs of all of your parameters and keep that sucker running for a few weeks and THEN get shrimp.

The guy at the shop telling you that water is so similar that you merely need float them has no real experience with shrimp. Even in my home, parameters can vary from tank to tank. That's just the nature of the beast. Sure, they're similar, but sometimes different enough to require long drip acclimation periods.

Your tank wasn't "completely cycled", in all likelihood. It's going to be a good idea for you to start things from scratch. Do a 100% water change. Then 'cycle' it with ammonia you know to be safe. If your system has enough bacteria built up to devour the ammonia and process it, it may only take a few days for you to be good to go. But you'll need to test every day and feed the tank with ammonia as needed in order to make sure things are squared away.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

The only reson I added more was because I thought they died from shipping stress. My tank can fully cycle 1ppm of ammonia perfectly fine. I'm going to drain the tank and fill it with distilled water. Then when my Parameters are good I will consult again and possibly try again. If my next attempt fails if I even try next I am most likely going to have a listing for a cycled filter and a 5 gallon tank up the next day.


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## PhilthyMcnasty (Oct 16, 2011)

I ordered some neos the other day and they came in after 2 days. First thing I did was test the TDS in the bag which was around 440. I tested my tank and it was at 180. It took me about 4 hours to acclimate via drip method to get the TDS in bag close to my tank value. So far (knocks on wood) all 20 shrimp are alive. I also use rodi water with Nature Shrimp GH/KH+.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

That's what I'm gonna do and should have done in the first place. I will do it first thing tomorrow and try to get things under control by Monday and most likely go then if I get the green light from all of you.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Your tank is not ready... it's your money and you choice but that is my opinion. Good luck

Dan


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## TropicalAquarist (Jun 9, 2015)

I think the main issue is your substrate, it is keeping the ph way to low for Neocaradina Shrimp! Before you do anything else I would replace it, AND before adding shrimp add a test fish and see what happens. watch the fish closely and see if it shows any signs of distress. If it does you know you still have another issue to battle!


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Likely not much of a problem.

Neos can do well on just about anything - even ADA Aquasoil - as long as parameters are stable and they're slowly acclimated.

Fluval's product doesn't tend to have much buffering power and doesn't last long, in my experience. Typically, after going through an initial 'cycle,' I've found that it doesn't do much of anything after a few weeks.

Also not a great idea to add a 'test' animal of any sort until one is sure params are okay. 

Since the OP is starting over with the tank (in terms of ammonia), it won't take long to get things under control.



TropicalAquarist said:


> I think the main issue is your substrate, it is keeping the ph way to low for Neocaradina Shrimp! Before you do anything else I would replace it, AND before adding shrimp add a test fish and see what happens. watch the fish closely and see if it shows any signs of distress. If it does you know you still have another issue to battle!


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

This morning I went and got 6 gallons of distilled water. I will rinse all my hardscape and heater and filter intake in it. I might just swish my filter pad in there because my mechanical filtration is lacking. There is weird brown dots on my hardscape. Is it brown algae or something else. How long should I run the tank with stable conditions before getting a test fish?


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

No. Don't do this.

Distilled water contains absolutely nothing - no dissolved solids, nothing. Washing your filter media in distilled water could kill essential bacteria. Don't do that.

Don't get a test fish. That's pointless and cruel. You'll know if your tank is safe if you do things properly and run it for a week after you know it's hit the sweet spot.

Just do a 100% water change - NOT with distilled - and test your parameters to get baseline readings. Then add surfactant-free and dye-free ammonia (use an online calculator to help you determine how much) to the tank and test daily. Follow guides here on the forum for fishless cycles. Once you're confident that you can add whatever amount of ammonia to your tank and it gets eaten up and processed in a day... maybe then continue doing that for a week or so to be sure your tank its still able to do it. 

Then do a 100% water change, test your params and drip acclimate a couple new shrimp.

EDIT: Additionally, make sure you read up again on some shrimp keeping guides and posts here on the forum. In addition to reading some fishless cycle guides. That'll help ensure that things are fresh on your mind.



landonnap said:


> This morning I went and got 6 gallons of distilled water. I will rinse all my hardscape and heater and filter intake in it. I might just swish my filter pad in there because my mechanical filtration is lacking. There is weird brown dots on my hardscape. Is it brown algae or something else. How long should I run the tank with stable conditions before getting a test fish?


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## Trickster 75 (Mar 23, 2014)

I have had my struggles with cherry shrimp. I think my biggest problem is ph. I am using Fluval Stratum since its made for shrimp. But as stated earlier its not the best for neos. I may switch it out.

my tap water ph is higher than my tank so everytime I would do a water change-dead shrimp. So now I test and adjust the water that's being added.


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## Rinfish (Aug 16, 2015)

3 weeks is not enough for a tank to be cycled, sadly. You will want to have the tank up for a month or more before adding something as delicate as shrimp.

I'm not sure why there is argument against drip acclimation on here, since its the ONLY way to slowly introduce your shrimp to your tank without complete shock. When I drip acclimate, I have them in a bowl in a warm-ish area, with 1-2 drips per second, for 3 hours. Start them off with less of their water (but enough to swim around in) so the bowl/container can fill up with your tank water. After about an hour and a half - 2 hours, I increase the drip to 3-4 per second, and leave it at that. 

Shrimp are delicate, even cherry shrimp. They are hardy once acclimated to their surroundings, but getting them there is the hard part.


Edit: Also consider other things - if you are using Purigen, you must ONLY use prime to dechlorinate your water. I also suggest getting pristine or stability, to help with your bacterial load (if your tank isnt cycled).


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## Nigel95 (Mar 5, 2017)

It toke me like 5 hours of drip acclimation to match container tds (340) with tank water (165).


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

pH is controlled/buffered by hardness. You likely had issues with GH/KH and TDS, not the substrate you were using.

I routinely keep Cherries on all sorts of substrates.

When you do water changes, you have to make sure your new water matches closely with your old water. That way your critters aren't shocked.



Trickster 75 said:


> I have had my struggles with cherry shrimp. I think my biggest problem is ph. I am using Fluval Stratum since its made for shrimp. But as stated earlier its not the best for neos. I may switch it out.
> 
> my tap water ph is higher than my tank so everytime I would do a water change-dead shrimp. So now I test and adjust the water that's being added.


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## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

Trickster 75 said:


> I have had my struggles with cherry shrimp. I think my biggest problem is ph. I am using Fluval Stratum since its made for shrimp. But as stated earlier its not the best for neos. I may switch it out.
> 
> my tap water ph is higher than my tank so everytime I would do a water change-dead shrimp. So now I test and adjust the water that's being added.


No point in switching out the substrate - it's already exhausted. You can tell because your pH test in your first post came back as 7.4-7.6. You should be under 7 (usually 6.6-6.8) if it is buffering.

If it were me, I would check my tap parameters so I know how future water changes are going to affect things. Take some tap water, let it sit for 2 days, then test it for everything.

I honestly don't think this is cycle related. At your pH, temp, and everything, I could see a cycle in 3 weeks or so, and it sounds like you know how to test properly. If you are seeing it process 1ppm ammonia to nitrates within 1 day and have zero ammonia or nitrites, you are fine.

If I were you, I'd pick up some stems and floaters, toss them in the tank, and wait a few more weeks for the tank to mature some more (don't forget to continue adding ammonia to keep it cycled).

During this time, figure out what is up with your tap water - heavy metals, nitrates, crazy high gh/kh, etc. You may have to go RO and remineralize to provide the right parameters. Once you have that figured out, do a good water change 2 days before you add shrimp and then leave it alone for as long as you can (keeping nitrates under 20ppm).


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Of course. I will reminerilize the water with equilibrium but on the notes of others I will not add baking soda. I plan to drip in water changes just to be safe so that they aren't shocked and I will try to closely match parameters beforehand. I am just wondering if after I get my parameters in point I should get like a guppy or a couple tetras. They can probably handle more adverse conditions than shrimp, should something be wrong. When doing water changes I will heat the water somehow to 78° just like my tank, and I will always use re mineralized distilled water. I was thinking of getting a couple neon tetras anyways or something like that.


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## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

Rinfish said:


> Start them off with less of their water (but enough to swim around in) so the bowl/container can fill up with your tank water.


Just as a heads up, you want to start with as much of their water as possible to make the parameter shift slower. If the container fills, just dump some off and keep dripping. Do this over and over until you are done.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


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## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

landonnap said:


> Of course. I will reminerilize the water with equilibrium but on the notes of others I will not add baking soda. I plan to drip in water changes just to be safe so that they aren't shocked and I will try to closely match parameters beforehand. I am just wondering if after I get my parameters in point I should get like a guppy or a couple tetras. They can probably handle more adverse conditions than shrimp, should something be wrong. When doing water changes I will heat the water somehow to 78° just like my tank, and I will always use re mineralized distilled water. I was thinking of getting a couple neon tetras anyways or something like that.


With RO or DI, you will have no KH which can lead to pH swings, so adding a very, very small amount of baking soda to get it up to 1-2 dKH will be OK. Yes, it will increase your pH slightly, but that is OK.

With a 5 gallon tank, 1 gallon water changes should be very easy to measure for remineralizers. 

I wouldn't bother with fish as you want either a fish tank or a shrimp tank. If you want to add fish, only an Otocinclus is safe (and they need a very mature tank before being added). Otherwise, get a colony running to the second generation before adding fish like neons. They'll eat babies and maybe juvies, but my neons leave adults alone in my work tank.

Also, I'd lower temp to 74-76 for RCS or 72-74 for CRS. Neons and many other small fish are fine with those temps as well.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

On my next try I will make time for at least 4 hours of drip time. Is it possible to over acclimate them?🤔😁. It will probably be a little while before I get some new ones. Maybe Wednesday. What fish would go good in my 5 gallon w RCS


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

You should wait a lot longer than Wednesday to get shrimp. Think weeks, not days. Maybe 3-4 weeks. Though, it could be as soon as two.

No fish go with shrimp in a tank that small. All fish will pick/nip at shrimp and in a tank that tiny, there will be casualties. Even if they have places to hide, probably not a good idea in a small tank like that. Shrimp will be much more active when they're alone, as well.



landonnap said:


> On my next try I will make time for at least 4 hours of drip time. Is it possible to over acclimate them?🤔😁. It will probably be a little while before I get some new ones. Maybe Wednesday. What fish would go good in my 5 gallon w RCS


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Ok so a no go on fish. Nate, I have not read much on CRS and am worried I would kill them like my last attempts. Right now I'm more trying not to kill them than breed them and CRS can go for a lot of money.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

My heater is preset to 78 and I'm not sure how much a changeable one would be. A lot of websites claimed that >80° would be ok so I figured it would work


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Turn your heater off and unplug it. You don't need it.

You'll want your tank to develop bacteria that aren't prone to higher temperatures, anyway. And shrimp are solid in lower temps.



landonnap said:


> My heater is preset to 78 and I'm not sure how much a changeable one would be. A lot of websites claimed that >80° would be ok so I figured it would work


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## soc200 (Feb 26, 2011)

landonnap said:


> 3 weeks and it was completely cycled and loaded with biofilm


This statement here leads me to believe you are very inexperienced. Please slow down. The VAST majority of tanks don't cycle in 3 weeks. A few doses of ammonia will NEVER give you "loaded with biofilm". Also, your gh/kh is very high compared to mine. I can't imagine how high my TDS would be to have it that high. 

The fact that your shrimp or instantly dying should tell you that you have some serious issues that you need to figure out. Read, read, read...patience.


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## ced281 (Jul 6, 2012)

Honestly, there's something really wrong with your tank. I'd either completely redo it from scratch or let it sit for a month before adding anything in.

I'm also super suspicious of the ammonia you added from ACE hardware. Why are you doing that? How do you know there aren't any contaminants in the ammonia? It's used as an industrial cleaner...

I'd prefer to just dump a tiny amount of fish food into the tank and let it almost rot to create an ammonia spike than pour in diluted liquid ammonia.


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## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

landonnap said:


> Ok so a no go on fish. Nate, I have not read much on CRS and am worried I would kill them like my last attempts. Right now I'm more trying not to kill them than breed them and CRS can go for a lot of money.


You are asking the right questions and sticking to it, so I see you being successful once you learn a few more things. I received a lot of help when I started, and once you keep temp stable, dGH within the proper range, and wait for the tank to mature, you can handle cherries or CRS just fine 

As @somewhatshocked said, lose the heater and no fish. If you really have to use a heater due to large temperature swings where they are kept, spend $15 on an Inkbird temperature controller and rely on that to keep the temperature set at 74-76 for cherries or 72-74 for CRS.


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

ced281 said:


> I'm also super suspicious of the ammonia you added from ACE hardware. Why are you doing that? How do you know there aren't any contaminants in the ammonia? It's used as an industrial cleaner...
> 
> I'd prefer to just dump a tiny amount of fish food into the tank and let it almost rot to create an ammonia spike than pour in diluted liquid ammonia.


It's Ammonium Hydroxide (basically aqueous ammonia) and it is completely fine for cycling tanks. I use it too and so do many others. It is a lot more accurate than using fish food as you can dose to get specific ppms.




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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

And ammonia from ACE is just about the best you can use.

It's one of the few, outside of industrial suppliers, available on the general retail market without surfactants. It's been going into my tanks (tanks that don't have a substrate containing its own ammonia and the like) for probably 20 years.



Opare said:


> It's Ammonium Hydroxide (basically aqueous ammonia) and it is completely fine for cycling tanks. I use it too and so do many others. It is a lot more accurate than using fish food as you can dose to get specific ppms.


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## ced281 (Jul 6, 2012)

Yeah, I did some additional research on my end because I was curious. It does seem legit, but still it makes my eyes go :surprise:. Is there a chance that the specific bottle that the OP got from ACE was contaminated? Maybe some residue on the outside of the bottle that got transferred in during the pouring process?



somewhatshocked said:


> And ammonia from ACE is just about the best you can use.
> 
> It's one of the few, outside of industrial suppliers, available on the general retail market without surfactants. It's been going into my tanks (tanks that don't have a substrate containing its own ammonia and the like) for probably 20 years.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

With no disrespect toward the OP, I'm gonna chalk this one up to inexperience and lack of patience. (We've all been there.)

They'll get the hang of it, though.



ced281 said:


> Yeah, I did some additional research on my end because I was curious. It does seem legit, but still it makes my eyes go :surprise:. Is there a chance that the specific bottle that the OP got from ACE was contaminated? Maybe some residue on the outside of the bottle that got transferred in during the pouring process?


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Does OP mean me? I've only been on this forum for a couple weeks so I'm very inexperienced with the forum slang😅. I added some ammonia and if I dont see any nitrites or ammonia in >24 hours then doesn't that mean I'm cycled? By loaded with biofilm I meant that the ornaments were slick with it when I touched them. Just trying to clear up some stuff. And yes I do tend to be lacking in the patience area😁. I have also never owned a fish except a dwarf gourami that I mistakenly put in a small bowl with a guppy when I was 7😁 So I guess you could say I'm not an expert!


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## soc200 (Feb 26, 2011)

landonnap said:


> Does OP mean me? I've only been on this forum for a couple weeks so I'm very inexperienced with the forum slang��. I added some ammonia and if I dont see any nitrites or ammonia in >24 hours then doesn't that mean I'm cycled? By loaded with biofilm I meant that the ornaments were slick with it when I touched them. Just trying to clear up some stuff. And yes I do tend to be lacking in the patience area��. I have also never owned a fish except a dwarf gourami that I mistakenly put in a small bowl with a guppy when I was 7�� So I guess you could say I'm not an expert!


OP means Original Poster (you in this case). This is a standard abbreviation on any forum. If you add ammonia and it is consumed/convert to nitrates in a day, then yes, you are cycled. This assumes your test kit is accurate and your methods are as well. Regardless, you aren't losing shrimp in 30 minutes because your tank isn't cycled. There is something about your tank that is deadly. It would take days/weeks for a shrimp to produce enough ammonia to kill itself. BUT, if the ammonia you are adding wasn't fully cycled...that would be very deadly. I would consider doing a full water change before you add your next live fish or shrimp. At the very least, any remaining ammonia would be removed. Shrimp have so little bioload (ammonia output)...the filter is surely cycled enough for a shrimp.

I'd also be looking into lowering temps. I have no experience with high gh/kh...but you are about 3 times mine. If this was extremely different than the seller...that could be a significant issue. 

Ammonia and high pH is often the quickest killer for shrimp in my tanks.


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## ced281 (Jul 6, 2012)

I agree with soc200. There are very few things that can kill shrimp in 30 minutes. From my experience they usually are poisons. Even chlorinated tap water takes a day to kill things...

I'm wondering if the hydroxide in the ammonia is activating something in the tank to make it extremely lethal.

Also, did you ever take pictures of the shrimps when they died? The way they appear can give you clues about what is killing them (e.g. pathogen vs. toxin vs. etc.)

You could also try running some activated carbon through the system to clear out any organic toxins.

Also, I know that using hardy fish to cycle is inhumane but why don't you try adding some hardy plants to see if they survive? If plants can't survive then there's almost a 0% chance that shrimps will survive (assuming you have decent lighting and substrate).

tl;dr
- Run activated carbon to clear out organic toxins
- Try hardy plants to test water condition



soc200 said:


> OP means Original Poster (you in this case). This is a standard abbreviation on any forum. If you add ammonia and it is consumed/convert to nitrates in a day, then yes, you are cycled. This assumes your test kit is accurate and your methods are as well. Regardless, you aren't losing shrimp in 30 minutes because your tank isn't cycled. There is something about your tank that is deadly. It would take days/weeks for a shrimp to produce enough ammonia to kill itself. BUT, if the ammonia you are adding wasn't fully cycled...that would be very deadly. I would consider doing a full water change before you add your next live fish or shrimp. At the very least, any remaining ammonia would be removed. Shrimp have so little bioload (ammonia output)...the filter is surely cycled enough for a shrimp.
> 
> I'd also be looking into lowering temps. I have no experience with high gh/kh...but you are about 3 times mine. If this was extremely different than the seller...that could be a significant issue.
> 
> Ammonia and high pH is often the quickest killer for shrimp in my tanks.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

It may have been high ph. I don't trust my API liquid test kit. The lower range type kit will read s very strong 7.6 then I will do a high range and it will test a 7.4. Those are the maximum and minimum of the test kits. I did recently change 100% of my water for re mineralized distilled water just in case there was something in my tap that wasn't good. But now with distilled water and only enough baking soda to raise to about 1-2 kh ( as noted by natemcnutty) and enough equilibrium to raise to about 3-4 GH my ph shouldn't be high. There is a weird blackish brown substance forming on my plants and ornaments. I think it is the result of terrible mechanical filtration and that all the stuff that was making my tank cloudy the first day is precipating from the filter pads. And slowly accumulating on my tank ornaments. How would I get that stuff out of the filter but keep the good bacteria established? I added some ammonia to see if my bacteria Colony is still good and strong. I'm trying to cover all my bases before I even consider getting a couple more shrimp. In the most respectful way possible, I don't see the need to wait a couple more weeks before I try again, is it because my filter isn't cycled or some other reason. This is my first experience on any forum so thanks for clearing that up!


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Hi ced281, I didn't see your post above mine. They weren't in an unnatural form when they died, they were slightly curled up and still had all of their color. I have had java fern, dwarf hair grass, vallisneria, and Marimo Moss balls in my tank since the start pretty much and they are all thriving. I was thinking of getting a SunSun mini 20g 106 gph canister filter.....maybe this is a good reason. They are only $30 for the whole system. Is there anything I need to do special to use carbon or just plop it in my filter and let it run. Also how often do I need to change carbon and or Creamic rings. My current filter only has a pre filter sponge as mechanical and a couple of "special" filter pads as biological and chemical I suppose. It is the Marina S10 I believe.... Thanks for the ideas! I am wondering about what you were talking about with the ammonia too.


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## sfshrimp (May 24, 2016)

nel said:


> I have to say, that I stopped doing drip acclimatization for fish and shrimp some time ago and it's better this way. Match the temperature by putting the bag into your tank, then just catch fish/shrimp with a net and toss them into the tank. No more drip acclimatization for me. Getting used to new parameters will take weeks, not hours, it doesn't really help so much doing drip, yet it can be really harmful with the ammonia (in the bag pH is dropping drastically making ammonia not harmful, when you add normal water - pH goes up, ammonia starts to harm fish/shrimp).


Yea the temp thing I agree with... I do a combo attack now. Bag in tank, quick 20mins drip, and done. All my amanos freak out every time I do a water change and I don't watch the temps. That being said, it also depends on how you transport your stock - like here in the city I go to a LFS, and I'm sure to stuff those bags into a sweatshirt or other dark medium and go home as quick as possible to put the bag in the tank. If you can, look at the water temp in the bags too.


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## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

landonnap said:


> But now with distilled water and only enough baking soda to raise to about 1-2 kh ( as noted by natemcnutty) and enough equilibrium to raise to about 3-4 GH my ph shouldn't be high.


KH looks good, but GH should be around 8 for cherries (or 6 for CRS). pH before should have been fine (7.4-7.6 is perfectly acceptable), but they are fine with anything in the 7's really.

I know you've spent quite a bit on things at this point, and before spending more on a canister, I'd look at your filter and why your​ think flow rate is low. Prefilter sponges can clog up quick and really reduce flow, so I would start there and work your way through the rest of the sponges to see if flow improves as you clean them.

I lost quite a few shrimp when I first started. Biggest lessons learned for me were better handling from the store to home (now use my own container with moss in it) and better acclimation (big temp differences is a fast killer and needed more patience during drip).

I'd work on flow and cleaning things up right now so things can stabilize. Once you've got filtration running great and have got the hang of water change and add back in the minerals, you should be good to go 

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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

ced281 said:


> I agree with soc200. There are very few things that can kill shrimp in 30 minutes. From my experience they usually are poisons. Even chlorinated tap water takes a day to kill things...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The hydroxide ions added would react with buffering species in the water, as we know there is some KH to the water, so I wouldn't be looking at the hydroxide ions.
That being said I agree 30 minutes is pretty quick for shrimp to die, running the tank through with activated carbon may be worth it.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

For activated carbon, just throw a mesh bag with it in my filter and that might remove some dangerous stuff? Sounds pretty good to me,if I get it today Amazon prime should have it here by Wednesday! Would the predicted sponge have any bacteria I should be careful of when washing?

Bump: Pre filter*


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## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

landonnap said:


> For activated carbon, just throw a mesh bag with it in my filter and that might remove some dangerous stuff? Sounds pretty good to me,if I get it today Amazon prime should have it here by Wednesday! Would the predicted sponge have any bacteria I should be careful of when washing?
> 
> Bump: Pre filter*


Mesh bag of carbon in fine for a temporary measure of removing toxins, tannins, odors, or medication. The downside is that does absorb some nutrients our plants need, expires quickly, and is costly to replace at the rate that would really be necessary to make it effective.

You have multiple sponges, and the ones in your filter probably have more bacteria than your prefilter due to better access to oxygen. Beneficial bacteria exists all over the place in your tank, but as an example, let's say you replaced all of the sponges in your filter - you may experience a mini-cycle where the bacteria cannot keep up with the ammonia and nitrates. It would then take a little while for them to reproduce to the point where they can keep up. 

During that time, you'd risk losing livestock and potentially have some algae issues. To alleviate that, we would so small water changes with Prime each day until no ammonia or nitrites are in the water.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Ok, I will invest in a small bag of carbon and i should probably get a tds meter too. Hopefully it will help!


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Will carbon effect any water parameters like Gh or Kh that I should be worried about?

Bump: Will carbon effect any water parameters like Gh or Kh that I should be worried about?


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## juneaunicholas (Jan 8, 2017)

I bought 15 amano shrimp one time, and they all died that same day. Amano shrimp are very very sensitive to temperature change. I had my water set at 75 and added a gallon that day without checking the temp of it. I think it was around 80 since it was lukewarm to the touch. I always match the temp now when I add new water. Might want to turn your thermometer down a couple degrees.

Bump: Also don't be so quick to give up this hobby. It is expensive, frustrating and will drive you nuts sometimes, but once you start getting the hang of things it's very rewarding.


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## SallImSayin (Jan 30, 2017)

My tank had the lowest testable PH and KH (unbeknownst to me..recent move, same water source but different water content) on the test kit chart, I floated my shrimp for 15 minutes and tossed them in the tank and they're still kicking around weeks later. Sometimes I think keeping it simple is the easiest way to handle things. I'm noticing a trend on sites recently with similar stories..longer drip acclimation and dead fish from newer fish keepers. I wouldn't keep them in that water any longer than necessary.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Ok, my heater can't be changed, it is a tetra Ht somethin or other. I have this weird brown stuff accumulating on my tank, it always comes off when I hold the syringe just above the water level and spray them with water and bubbles. I think it is small particles of substrate coming from the filter


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

When could I expect to be able to get just like 1-2 shrimp to see how they do then get a couple more. Are we talking weeks or days? Just really want to get it right this time! My carbon and things are coming Wednesday, how long should I run them before I add shrimp to make sure the carbon sucks up any bad stuff? Thursday or Sunday are looking best right now, Thursday may be too early though. I should be able to get things with my parameters under wraps by Thursday if the carbon works that fast, basically overnight. This whole group of people has been very helpful in getting rid of any problems and suggestions that could help. I cant thank you enough!


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## soc200 (Feb 26, 2011)

landonnap said:


> Ok, my heater can't be changed, it is a tetra Ht somethin or other. I have this weird brown stuff accumulating on my tank, it always comes off when I hold the syringe just above the water level and spray them with water and bubbles. I think it is small particles of substrate coming from the filter


A picture would help. New tanks almost always get diatoms which are fairly harmless and are easily removed (by rubbing them off or just spraying with a little water on refills). Diatoms are typically short lived....going away after a few weeks/month.

From my current tank after 1-3 weeks.


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## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

SallImSayin said:


> My tank had the lowest testable PH and KH (unbeknownst to me..recent move, same water source but different water content) on the test kit chart, I floated my shrimp for 15 minutes and tossed them in the tank and they're still kicking around weeks later. Sometimes I think keeping it simple is the easiest way to handle things. I'm noticing a trend on sites recently with similar stories..longer drip acclimation and dead fish from newer fish keepers. I wouldn't keep them in that water any longer than necessary.


Fish and shrimp are very different in terms of acclimation. Shipped fish can have a lot of ammonia in the bag when you get them, so a long drip, especially increasing in pH, is a bad idea. Shrimp in the other hand just don't produce enough ammonia for it to be an issue, but they are far more sensitive to temperature and mineral content.


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## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

landonnap said:


> Ok, my heater can't be changed, it is a tetra Ht somethin or other. I have this weird brown stuff accumulating on my tank, it always comes off when I hold the syringe just above the water level and spray them with water and bubbles. I think it is small particles of substrate coming from the filter


Carbon will not affect parameters, and as I think @somewhatshocked said, lose the heater. As for brown stuff, it's either diatoms or possibly some bacteria dying off. Are you still adding ammonia?

Were you able to get your filter running better? All of that crap should be getting cleaned out of the water column by your filter.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

How do I add pictures on mobile, aka apple?

Bump: It gets pretty cold up where I live. I made get be able to get a different one but for now I think i need it

Bump: It gets pretty cold up where I live. I made get be able to get a different one but for now I think i need it


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## Carpathian (Dec 23, 2016)

I request desktop site when using chrome on android. Not sure if you have an option similar, if you do, then the layout is identical to desktop. From there press "go advanced" and "manage attachments"

Bump:

Bump:


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

I use the Tapatalk app for the phone it makes posting photos etc. quite easy.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

In 3-4 weeks. Or not until you're sure your tank is ready for them. Certainly not within the next few days.

Turn your heater off and remove it from your tank. You don't need it. The shrimp you want to keep will be fine even in 50-60 degree water.

And spend time reading this forum a bit more. Dig in to learn about shrimp care. Read through others' shrimp tank journals to see how things go.

You'll get the hang of it. Just slow down.



landonnap said:


> When could I expect to be able to get just like 1-2 shrimp to see how they do then get a couple more. Are we talking weeks or days? Just really want to get it right this time! My carbon and things are coming Wednesday, how long should I run them before I add shrimp to make sure the carbon sucks up any bad stuff? Thursday or Sunday are looking best right now, Thursday may be too early though. I should be able to get things with my parameters under wraps by Thursday if the carbon works that fast, basically overnight. This whole group of people has been very helpful in getting rid of any problems and suggestions that could help. I cant thank you enough!


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Here's the Tank, the brown stuff is all over the wood peice


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Looks like a good starting point for shrimp.

But definitely remove the header. You absolutely do not need it for Neos. Source: I have hundreds of thousands of shrimp.

The only thing I'd do if I were you is let that tank mature for a month, keep "cycling" it to keep the bacteria alive. That'll give you time for plants to grow in, for surface film to develop, for your moss to get larger. Then it'll be a nice place for your critters when you ultimately get them. A mature tank is way better for shrimp than something that's newly set up.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Ok, I will unplug the heater, any idea on what the brown stuff is?


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Here is a closeup of some of it on my (now unplugged) heater.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

You may want to remove the heater entirely from the tank.


You mentioned the "brown stuff" coming from the filter possibly? Have you double checked to see if there's a bunch in there?


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

The filter pads are all brown and when I shut it off for a pwc it was sinking to the bottom of the HOB canister. I ordered some filter padding that I hope will improve mechanical filtration by putting some it front of the filter pads.










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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

Looks like substrate dust to me. Is it easy to wipe off?


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

That's what I thought opare. It is easy to spray off with a syringe. I ordered some filter pad that should stop it if it is coming from the filter. I sound like a broken record saying that but I'm hoping it will fix the problem


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

It's just detritus and sediment from a new tank. Don't worry about it. Once things are growing better and everything is all settled in, it'll pretty much disappear.


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## TINNGG (Mar 9, 2005)

I got one of those heaters once to stick in a small q/t. Stuck it in, didn't even plug it up. Came back in to find two of the 4 fish dead, and the others not doing so good. Took the heater out, did a big water change, and the two still alive perked up. Just something to think about.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

I got a new tds meter and some filter padding. The tds of my tap reads 610! That may have been the killer. My current re mineralized distilled water is 380 still. How is it that the distilled reads 0 then I add equilibrium and it reads so high?


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## lahornby (Apr 19, 2017)

landonnap said:


> I bought the tank from amazon and washed it and everything else very thoroughly. At this point I dont think another batch is in my future. Thanks for all the help


I am a noob to freshwater shrimp myself. But I want to make sure this didn't get overlooked... The fact that you bought the tank from Amazon caught my eye. I know you can buy used items from amazon... was it a new, never been used tank? Or used?

It is common for people to treat their sick fish with copper. Once you use copper in an aquarium, it is there forever. Leeching back into the aquarium from the silicone joints. No matter how well you clean the aquarium. I learned this the hard way when placing saltwater inverts in a used aquarium.

Maybe it's not true in the new seamless aquariums? I'm not sure. But I just thought I would throw that out there.


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## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

lahornby said:


> I am a noob to freshwater shrimp myself. But I want to make sure this didn't get overlooked... The fact that you bought the tank from Amazon caught my eye. I know you can buy used items from amazon... was it a new, never been used tank? Or used?
> 
> It is common for people to treat their sick fish with copper. Once you use copper in an aquarium, it is there forever. Leeching back into the aquarium from the silicone joints. No matter how well you clean the aquarium. I learned this the hard way when placing saltwater inverts in a used aquarium.
> 
> Maybe it's not true in the new seamless aquariums? I'm not sure. But I just thought I would throw that out there.


Just as an additional note, presence of copper does not kill shrimp - toxic levels do. Shrimp actually need some copper in the same way we need iron in our blood, but I'm not sure if they take any in from the water or if it is all through food consumption.

Over time, copper absorbed by silicon will eventually leach out to where the trace levels leaching out are safe enough for inverts. You can use Seachem CupriSorb if you do find this to be the case.

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## lahornby (Apr 19, 2017)

natemcnutty said:


> lahornby said:
> 
> 
> > I am a noob to freshwater shrimp myself. But I want to make sure this didn't get overlooked... The fact that you bought the tank from Amazon caught my eye. I know you can buy used items from amazon... was it a new, never been used tank? Or used?
> ...


I see. Thank you for correcting me. I was unaware that shrimp need some copper. My post was based on my train of thought that any copper is deadly to most saltwater creatures other than the scaled fish. Hence me starting my post with me being a noob.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Copper leaching from silicone may indeed be too high for the shrimp to safely handle.



What is the GH and KH of the 380 TDS water???


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

It was new. And my API copper test reads 0 every time I use it. If the carbon leaks out of the bag is that ok? Just wondering because the bag I got is huge and I had to make a diy smaller one out of a couple pieces of filter pad and I'm not sure how well it will hold


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

I will test my water after I get home tonight. It is very strange. Maybe the meter isn't correct. I can't imagine my GH or KH being over 6


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Yes, it's fine if the carbon spills from the bag.

As far as GH and KH go - I've found Sera kits (you have to buy each test individually, usually) to be far superior to API when testing for hardness. A lot easier to read, as well. So if you can find them for cheap, may want to pick them up next time you're shopping for tank goodies. 

And once you hit the point where you're sure you want to keep on keeping shrimp and want to get more (you will - there's no doubt about it), also consider getting better remineralization products at that point. It's not necessary now for the shrimp you want to keep. But in the future/when you run out of what you're using, it could be a good thing to consider.

About tap water TDS: that's not necessarily terrible. All depends upon what your GH and KH are. May even be that you could cut your tap water (after treating it, obviously) with RO/DI/distilled water and be good to go. I've found that where there's a will with shrimp, there's a way. You can almost always work with what you've got - at least a little bit, any way.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Ok, I went to my pet store today, not LFS, just to see what they had. They had this marvelous betta fish that I really liked, I've been reading on Bettas too just as a back up in case Shrimp don't work. Just a thought, but how would I get my water in shape for a betta. The poor guy was in very cloudy water all the way on the top side shelf hidden away. 


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## soc200 (Feb 26, 2011)

landonnap said:


> I got a new tds meter and some filter padding. The tds of my tap reads 610! That may have been the killer. My current re mineralized distilled water is 380 still. How is it that the distilled reads 0 then I add equilibrium and it reads so high?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I have never heard of anyone who could keep shrimp alive with tds over ~300. I was suspicious of the high gh/kh from the beginning. I use equilibrium and I prepare my water so that the tds is 150. My gh/kh end up around 4.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

A lot of others say they have seen 500+ even 600+ in person and that they thrive still


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## wannadivesteve (Apr 20, 2015)

I still wonder about something from page 2.... "I bought the tank from amazon and washed it and everything else very thoroughly. At this point I dont think another batch is in my future" Did you wash it WITH something? During the years I worked in aquarium shops I met more than one individual that used products that did their fish in. Just curious.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

I see where that might be misleading. I should have said rinsed it. I used only cold and hot tap water, no cleaners or stuff like that. Hope that clears things up!


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## JustJen (Jun 20, 2011)

soc200 said:


> I have never heard of anyone who could keep shrimp alive with tds over ~300. I was suspicious of the high gh/kh from the beginning. I use equilibrium and I prepare my water so that the tds is 150. My gh/kh end up around 4.


I don't have a clue what my TDS is, but I keep raise several varieties of neos in water with a gh of 9-10 and kh of 19. Given those numbers, I would assume my tds to be quite high as well. I certainly can't imagine that the OP's harder water would kill them off in half an hour. I lean toward there has to be some type of toxin in the water.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

That's what I think. I did a 100% wc and added some carbon to my filter to try to get any prying like that out of it. I also switched it out with re mineralized distilled water just in case it was something just occurring in my tap. Anyone on the Betta idea?


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

soc200 said:


> I have never heard of anyone who could keep shrimp alive with tds over ~300. I was suspicious of the high gh/kh from the beginning. I use equilibrium and I prepare my water so that the tds is 150. My gh/kh end up around 4.


Not sure where you're getting that.

Hundreds of people here on the forum keep shrimp with total dissolved solids higher than 300. (Myself included)



landonnap said:


> That's what I think. I did a 100% wc and added some carbon to my filter to try to get any prying like that out of it. I also switched it out with re mineralized distilled water just in case it was something just occurring in my tap. Anyone on the Betta idea?


I think you should stick with getting things right for shrimp right now. Just have patience, go through cycling your tank for a few weeks. Get comfortable with all of your parameters, know what impacts them, know how water changes alter them, all that good stuff. Then you'll feel really confident about it. 

Shrimp really aren't _that_ complicated once you get the hang of them. You will. And getting the hang of basic shrimp keeping will truly make it easier for you to keep just about anything else you can think of.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Right now they seem anything but basic! But that is a good way to put it. I just love the colors and personality of Bettas while a 5 gallon like mine is the perfect size! And I was reading on aquarium salt. Does that have any negative effects on shrimp or plants? If I got a betta of course


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## soc200 (Feb 26, 2011)

somewhatshocked said:


> Not sure where you're getting that.
> 
> Hundreds of people here on the forum keep shrimp with total dissolved solids higher than 300. (Myself included)


Disregarding all of my experience, which is evidently, worthless...

It depends on "what" the dissolved solids are and the species. Even more, the amount of inbreeding can be a significant variable causing weakness in a colony. 

So any generalizations are just that, including yours. I have spent years killing all kinds of shrimp with everything from co2, copper fittings, dirty water (well water), etc. But I doubt you are going to agree with any experience other than your own...so I wave the white flag up front.

If you want to tell him a tds of 600+ is going to work for him...who am I to stop you?


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## coldmantis (Aug 17, 2010)

soc200 said:


> I have never heard of anyone who could keep shrimp alive with tds over ~300. I was suspicious of the high gh/kh from the beginning. I use equilibrium and I prepare my water so that the tds is 150. My gh/kh end up around 4.


Since February of this year I decided to get back into shrimp keeping. I bought 3 different types of shrimp from 3 of the biggest local private breeders. I tested their water as soon as I got home


60 cherry shrimp (Feb 17th 2017), did not see his setup picked up at door

PH - 7.6
Ammonia - 0
Nirite - 0
Nitrate - 120
TDS - 556
KH - 8
GH - My GH test kit was expired so didn't test

70+ Yellow Shrimp (mid March), he breeds his yellows with plecos, no plants no lights!!

PH - 7.6
Ammonia - 0
Nirite - 0
Nitrate - 80
TDS - 500+
KH - 8
GH - My GH test kit was expired so didn't test

11 CBC Mischlings (end of March), Huge breeding setup thousands of shrimp (Caridina Shrimp Only).

PH 6.4
nitrates - 80ppm+
TDS - 500
KH - 0-1
GH - 8 (bought a test kit since I'm remineralizing pure r/o)

Personally I keep my Neo tanks under 200 TDS and change water when it's near 250. Caridina I keep around 110.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

No need to argue. I'm sure he's just looking to share his experience just like you are. We all have probably killed a fish or shrimp at some point. I'm sure they do much better in water less than 300 but they are hardy little guys so who really knows what they can go through! That's a lot of shrimp mantis! How big are the tanks they are in! As of today I'm pretty sure my ph kit is busted. Even with my distilled water and the low buffering substrate it still reads 7.6. 


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## coldmantis (Aug 17, 2010)

landonnap said:


> No need to argue. I'm sure he's just looking to share his experience just like you are. We all have probably killed a fish or shrimp at some point. I'm sure they do much better in water less than 300 but they are hardy little guys so who really knows what they can go through! That's a lot of shrimp mantis! How big are the tanks they are in! As of today I'm pretty sure my ph kit is busted. Even with my distilled water and the low buffering substrate it still reads 7.6.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Ya I did go a little overboard but since I wanted to see a swarm I decided to buy a lot. As for the tank size I don't think you want to know lol. But here it goes the cherries were in a 2g fluval spec, I setup the tank on Feb 12 2017 with very little like a shot glass of cycled gravel and the rest was new gravel. All the tank water that would fit in the spec from my 40g breeder which I dose EI and has a lot of nitrates 80+. This is day one parameters:

Feb 12 2017
First Fill
Ammonia - 0
Nirite - 0
Nitrate - 40
PH - 7.6
TDS - 450

did water changes everyday to bring down the TDS and Nitrates

Feb 14 2017
First Water Change about 60%-70% cleaned media
Ammonia - 0
Nirite - 0
Nitrate - 20
TDS - 380
KH - 8
GH - put like 40+ drops and it doesn't turn green, test kit probably expired

Feb 15 2017

Second Water change about 50-60%, *Heater Failed 37c!!, Added Greater Duckweed*
Ammonia - 0
Nirite - 0
Nitrate - 40
TDS - 250
KH - 7

Third Water change about 80% cleaned media
Ammonia - 0.5
Nirite - 0
Nitrate - 5-10
KH - 7
TDS - 165

Dipped all media in Fluval 406 dirt water
Ammonia - 0.5
Nirite - 0
Nitrate - 5
TDS - 181

Feb 16 2017
Ammonia - 0.5
Nirite - 0
Nitrate - 5

Feb 17 2017

Small water change cleaned media so it's less dirty looking
Ammonia - 0.5
Nirite - 0
Nitrate - 5
TDS - 173

Impatience me said screw it and decided to buy 60 Cherries on the 17th and added to the tank. I don't believe in super long drips acclimation, I only dripped for like 30 minutes or less. and I did a small water change so I can fit all of his water that was in the bag to the tank.

Now here is where I stopped taking notes on my parameters because it just went downhill fast from here. I didn't think I was going to have a long mini cycle because like I stated in my notes I used the poop water from my canister filter to fast track the cycle on this new tank. Long story short for 2 weeks straight my ammonia went as high as 2ppm, nitrite 5ppm, nitrate I don't remember probably not over 80ppm. I decided to take out the heater. So how many shrimps did I lose? I lost 2! the first one I was moving some things around and I netted out a shrimp but didn't notice until it dried up and died (my fault) second one I topped off my water too high and one crawl out dried up and died (my fault). I didn't loose any shrimp due to the 2 week mini cycle however I did gain at least 15 shrimp because some of the shrimp I bought were already berried. I wish I had a pic of the tank because it was fully planted as in you can't see the substrate. At the end of it all

Cherries went from 2g spec to 5g to 7.5g starfire cube
Yellows went from 14.5 Japanese curve to 10g
CBS Mischlings started and stayed on a 5g.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

All those cherrys in a 2 gallon? Wow


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

URGENT. Hi everyone. Today I noticed these small white worms in my tank. They might just be debris but they "swim" by twisting around. It looks like a parasite. Very thin and about 1-3 mm long. I will post a pic but I'm not sure if you can see them







What are they and could they be the Killers? It is the small white thread-like thing in the center


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Here's a more zoomed in one. Btw they are everywhere. Especially the substrate 


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

After a bit of reading I think they are roundworms or flatworms and that Bettas can eat them? Still would like conformation and I can supply more pictures if needed


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

soc200 said:


> Disregarding all of my experience, which is evidently, worthless...
> 
> It depends on "what" the dissolved solids are and the species. Even more, the amount of inbreeding can be a significant variable causing weakness in a colony.
> 
> ...


What on earth? White flag? What? It's not an argument. And your experience isn't in any way worthless. No need to overreact or take this discussion the wrong way.

My point, to reiterate, is that 300+ TDS isn't a big deal. Since the OP already has a basic understanding that myriad things make up TDS, I didn't think it was important for me to explain that. 

You're right that it's important to know what makes up TDS. But yes, in some of my Neo tanks, TDS can hit relatively high numbers by water change day. I also have a good sense of what's in the water and why solids are that high. (Ferts, clogged sponge filters, ten-year-old substrate that needs to be swapped, etc) 

With experience, which the OP is gaining day-by-day, comes the ability to know what'll work for you and your critters.



landonnap said:


> After a bit of reading I think they are roundworms or flatworms and that Bettas can eat them? Still would like conformation and I can supply more pictures if needed


Those white worms are a sign that your tank is on its way to being healthy. They're totally fine and something, honestly, I look forward to seeing when setting up a tank. Sometimes there are huge blooms of them (depending upon substrate, plants, everything else) and sometimes there are just a few.

They're just detritus worms. The ones you'd want to worry about are Planaria (search for images of them - you'll know when you have them. They're way different.) but even those are easy to get rid of.

For these detritus worms, however, just leave them. They'll balance out as your tank matures. But fish absolutely will obliterate them if you do start up a tank for fish at some point.


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## FishRFriendz (Dec 21, 2016)

Can't go wrong by matching the source of your shrimp's water parameters rather than take all sorts of advice online.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

FishRFriendz said:


> Can't go wrong by matching the source of your shrimp's water parameters rather than take all sorts of advice online.


Sure you can. Especially if buying from a local fish store that isn't well-versed in keeping invertebrates or one that doesn't care to really understand parameters.

Most are on one huge system with a giant sump or sumps and parameters aren't typically ideal for shrimp.

If obtaining from a fellow hobbyist, that's a different situation. And matching parameters may be more ideal.


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## FishRFriendz (Dec 21, 2016)

somewhatshocked said:


> Sure you can. Especially if buying from a local fish store that isn't well-versed in keeping invertebrates or one that doesn't care to really understand parameters.
> 
> Most are on one huge system with a giant sump or sumps and parameters aren't typically ideal for shrimp.
> 
> If obtaining from a fellow hobbyist, that's a different situation. And matching parameters may be more ideal.


You're really grasping at straws to win debates over TDS here eh? 

In that situation where you get stock from a local store there's no correct tds to get to target outside of asking the store owner to check their source, the only other option is to work with the info you have. Kh/gh parameters are well published. 

My advice still stands. Online advice on a target TDS is still no good (unless it's your buddy down the block posting on the forum keeping the same shrimp from the same source.).


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## awesometim1 (Oct 31, 2013)

Why is there an argument going on when this forum is about helping out others? I don't think the argument about TDS realistically helps the OP. Rather, it is creating a harsh atmosphere and most importantly, the OP is not getting any answer to his problem. 


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## FishRFriendz (Dec 21, 2016)

awesometim1 said:


> Why is there an argument going on when this forum is about helping out others? I don't think the argument about TDS realistically helps the OP. Rather, it is creating a harsh atmosphere and most importantly, the OP is not getting any answer to his problem.


It's the TDS holy wars. I heard about them on Aquarium Co-Op's TDS video. Didn't believe it till I saw it here. Anyways with the OP's info all told, the only thing left really is TDS. He's got a new tank, never used meds, cycled the tank, and shrimp die in 30 mins. Diseases would have killed over a much longer period. So that leaves...

Osmotic shock. 

And most recently we found out his TDS was about 600. He's already working to bring that down, but I dunno what he's targeting... he should be asking where ever his shrimp are coming from what to target.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

FishRFriendz said:


> You're really grasping at straws to win debates over TDS here eh?
> 
> In that situation where you get stock from a local store there's no correct tds to get to target outside of asking the store owner to check their source, the only other option is to work with the info you have. Kh/gh parameters are well published.
> 
> My advice still stands. Online advice on a target TDS is still no good (unless it's your buddy down the block posting on the forum keeping the same shrimp from the same source.).


I think you're misunderstanding that we're saying the same thing: targeting some set TDS is essentially pointless. Which is why I earlier advocated targeting GH/KH ranges for what are known to work for most Neos, for starters.

Hardly grasping at straws. Most local fish shops have one giant sump system with gross parameters that aren't remotely fit for shrimp. They're routinely medicated, new introductions aren't quarantined, the list goes on for days. Unless a store is keeping shrimp in a stand-alone tank and really mind their parameters, it's likely not a good idea to even bother matching parameters. Not with an average fish shop and not with a shop that sells shrimp to people who are inexperienced or don't have well-established tanks for them.

The same goes with buying shrimp from members here. They can claim their shrimp are healthy, can claim they're tank-raised, can claim their parameters are ideal for the specific shrimp they're selling, can claim they're parasite-free but there's not always a way to be certain. Even with sellers who are well-established and have been in the invert game for multiple decades like myself. 

There are thousands of anecdotal posts from thousands of members here regarding slowly acclimating shrimp to parameters that are ideal or comfortable. Acclimation works. (We're, again, in agreement here.)

Your post history suggests you were new to keeping shrimp as recent as late January 2017. But I'm assuming you're familiar, by now, with why TDS as a stand-alone doesn't mean much unless one has a good idea what those solids consist of in terms of hardness and other particulates. Your comments here suggest you're familiar. If you read through the thread, you'll see the OP is already familiar/becoming more familiar by the day.

...

Remember, folks, you can't discern tone-of-voice from written text. Discussions among people on a forum are hardly wars or arguments.

Shrimp keeping isn't some set-in-stone science of matching and getting things exact. It's one of nuance and experience - which the OP is definitely gaining.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

A pro-tip to all participating here from a moderator: Don't insult other members. I'm posting here as a hobbyist but am also tasked with cleaning up the forum. 

It's important to share accurate information and correct misinformation when others give bad advice. But everyone can do it without being straight-up jerks.

Insults here won't fly and I won't clean this thread up again. Each of you know better.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Ok. I will look into planeria and stuff like that. Thanks!


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Hi. So I might go to petsmart today and pick up like 1-2 ghost shrimp to see how my tank is just because they are cheaper and easier to get. If they do good, will they live peacefully or crossbreed with Neos?


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Ghost shrimp are potentially more aggressive than Neo shrimp are. They are a completely different species of shrimp though and do not breed with Neos.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Will they fight and potentially kill the Neocaridina?


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## coldmantis (Aug 17, 2010)

landonnap said:


> Hi. So I might go to petsmart today and pick up like 1-2 ghost shrimp to see how my tank is just because they are cheaper and easier to get. If they do good, will they live peacefully or crossbreed with Neos?


Get ghost shrimp if you want since they are very cheap, however most LFS that sell ghost shrimp sell them as live food so there is a chance they might contain diseases. Therefore you are taking a risk on it contaminated your tank for your future neos. Also I'm pretty sure that ghost shrimp requires brackish conditions to live long term. So don't expect your ghost shrimp to live pass lets say 1-3 months.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

There are different species of ghost shrimp... some that come from freshwater and breed purely in freshwater, some that come from brackish water and breed purely in brackish water, and then some that could be in-between... i.e. they live in fresh but breed/reproduce in brackish.


Not sure if there are many things that can be transferred between ghost shrimp and Neo shrimp... there seems to be a lot of parasites that affect Neos but not Caridinas or other shrimp species.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

landonnap said:


> Hi. So I might go to petsmart today and pick up like 1-2 ghost shrimp to see how my tank is just because they are cheaper and easier to get. If they do good, will they live peacefully or crossbreed with Neos?


Seriously, you've got to have patience. For weeks, not days.

Get your tank in working order, *let it mature*, monitor it regularly, feed it ammonia, get things working.

Then get shrimp again.

You aren't ready today. In part because you can't decide if you want a Betta or shrimp and in part because your tank hasn't matured and you aren't sure what's going on with it.

Patience.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

somewhatshocked said:


> Seriously, you've got to have patience. For weeks, not days.
> 
> Get your tank in working order, *let it mature*, monitor it regularly, feed it ammonia, get things working.
> 
> ...



Have to agree, that's why I stopped posting in this thread. Some people hear what they want, see what they want, think what they want and there is nothing wrong with that but it doesn't leave room for much learning so I choose not to be part of it because I feel like I'm wasting my time. This is not to be rude to the OP but I think like myself often times I just need to learn the hard way and I see nothing wrong with that either.

Dan


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Ok, i will wait longer. And those worms, there are hundreds of them. I see them everywhere now. Crawling on the substrate, on my glass, on the plants and others stuck in the current coming from the filter. I think I have decided on shrimp and if I want a betta in a year I will think about upgrading my shrimp tank and using my 5 gallon as a betta tank. My java fern has about 20 baby's on it and they are growing like mad also. Some of the vallisneria I trimmed back are browning but I hope they come back stronger next time. 


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

With all due respect. Can I ask why I need to wait longer? Is it to get the filter stable, parameters stable. Grow algae? Just curious. Thanks for the help!


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## coldmantis (Aug 17, 2010)

landonnap said:


> Ok, i will wait longer. And those worms, there are hundreds of them. I see them everywhere now. Crawling on the substrate, on my glass, on the plants and others stuck in the current coming from the filter. I think I have decided on shrimp and if I want a betta in a year I will think about upgrading my shrimp tank and using my 5 gallon as a betta tank. My java fern has about 20 baby's on it and they are growing like mad also. Some of the vallisneria I trimmed back are browning but I hope they come back stronger next time.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Don't quote me on this but many years ago I either read it or heard it from another hobbyist. Java ferns normally grows very slowly, however to speed grow them and sprout many baby plants is to put them in a tank that is deadly as in live stock won't survive. It triggers the fern to propagate baby plant in case the mother plant dies from poor water coniditons.

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## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

coldmantis said:


> Don't quote me on this but many years ago I either read it or heard it from another hobbyist. Java ferns normally grows very slowly, however to speed grow them and sprout many baby plants is to put them in a tank that is deadly as in live stock won't survive. It triggers the fern to propagate baby plant in case the mother plant dies from poor water coniditons.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk


I can speak from experience in this one... [emoji14]

Yes, if you starve them of nutrients, they will grow lots of plantlets. It doesn't necessarily indicate an immature tank or bad water conditions for livestock, but you definitely want to make sure nutrients are being added appropriately.


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## Carpathian (Dec 23, 2016)

natemcnutty said:


> I can speak from experience in this one... [emoji14]
> 
> Yes, if you starve them of nutrients, they will grow lots of plantlets. It doesn't necessarily indicate an immature tank or bad water conditions for livestock, but you definitely want to make sure nutrients are being added appropriately.


Now I know, I had java fern grown tons of plantlets on the bottom of the leaves. That tank was cfl lights only, no ferts or co2. Thanks for the info, back to the topic


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

It came like that from petsmart. I think it was on the verge of death when I bought it but now it's doing much better and those plants just keep growing! It came in a plastic tube with a bunch of water gel on the roots. The leaves are much greener and the baby's are growing roots like crazy.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Sorry if I seem like I'm trying to add stuff too quickly again but, would a snail be ok? I might get a snail just to have something to watch and to help keep things clean, while providing a small ammonia source for the growing bacteria. Again, sorry if this sounds like I'm trying to add stuff quickly![emoji1] Just thinking out loud!


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

With all due respect, read this thread again. It's repeatedly explained why you should not add living creatures to your tank.

While snails are resilient and may survive horrific conditions, no, you should not add snails.

Don't add snails, don't add anything. Not today. Not this week. If you can't handle waiting a few weeks, you can't handle keeping these creatures alive and need to shut things down. I'm not remotely being sarcastic.

Figure out a way to have patience and just allow your tank to mature. The payoff will be worth it.

Note: Same thing with the worms. Read this thread, read the other thread(s) you've started. Maybe do a bit of searching and reading here on the forum. They're fine. Leave them alone and your tank will balance out.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Ok, I was just wondering on your opinion, I know that this seems like I'm just trying to push to get something but I know snails and shrimp and different. Sorry if it seemed rude to ask.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

It's not rude in the least to ask!

But you've gotta have patience with this. It will seriously pay off. 

Even if your tank was good to go today, I'd still recommend keeping it alive by feeding it ammonia for several weeks. A mature tank is almost always better for shrimp than something new.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

Ok, I'm not sure if my family wants me to get shrimp or something else and since they might have to feed them once in awhile or do a wc their opinion matters too. I added some ACE ammonia to help the bacteria although I'm sure those worms give off some too. I'm starting to see less of them but maybe I'm just not looking hard enough 


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

So I just tested my ph and it reads 8.2. I also read that high ph is an abundance of hydroxide ions, my ammonia is ammonium hydroxide. I'm not a chemist but would this be a reason for high ph? I said earlier I added more ammonia, is this what happened?


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Probably shouldn't worry about your pH at this point. Focus on ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels.

Once you're able to add a fixed amount of ammonia to your tank (use whatever the tank cycling calculators tell you for your volume of water) and have it get processed within a day or less, then you'll be good. And if your GH & KH are where you want them, your pH will be solid/stable. At least for Neos.

As far as water changes go, they'll be trivial on such a small tank. Once every week or two, you'll be swapping maybe 10-15% of your water. You can keep replacement water prepared in a jug or something to make it less of a hassle. Heck, for a tank that small, you could keep enough water ready to go for a 100% water change in the case of an emergency. 

For feeding, you may not have to feed every day. And if you go on vacation, shrimp will be set for a week or so with just some leaf litter. 

Once your tank is mature and you've got everything in check, shrimp truly are simple to keep. Even if you're raising more sensitive varieties. At least in terms of water changes, tank maintenance and feeding. I find them to be a lot more simple than keeping many types of tropical fish.


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## landonnap (Mar 31, 2017)

The ammonia I added this morning is gone along with no traces of nitrite so does that mean I'm good? Just going off what you said earlier. Also I have an automatic feeder that will dispense one quarter pea sized Invert pellet every other day that has a capacity of 2 weeks so I can go on vacation without worry. Although I might feed every three days to keep ammonia and nitrites and nitrates in check while I can't do a water change


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## SallImSayin (Jan 30, 2017)

natemcnutty said:


> Fish and shrimp are very different in terms of acclimation. Shipped fish can have a lot of ammonia in the bag when you get them, so a long drip, especially increasing in pH, is a bad idea. Shrimp in the other hand just don't produce enough ammonia for it to be an issue, but they are far more sensitive to temperature and mineral content.


I hear you. I've used the same method (float and toss) for shrimp, snails, and fish, they're all good.


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