# BBA and BGA - Causes & Treatments



## MedRed

excellent! this will be a nice guide!


----------



## ikuzo

beautiful guide. i agree with the BBA debatable stuff. when condition apply, my BBA always grow in the spot where there's more flow.


----------



## neonmkr

*sticky!!!!!*


----------



## CmLaracy

neonmkr said:


> *sticky!!!!!*


The pressure is on now  Sticky anyone?


----------



## macclellan

This is the best algae guide I know:
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm


----------



## Gatekeeper

BBA treatment #3. Bleach it! Has to be administered of course outside of the tank and is on a case by case situation.


----------



## A Hill

gmccreedy said:


> BBA treatment #3. Bleach it! Has to be administered of course outside of the tank and is on a case by case situation.


20:1 Water bleach

Just nuked all the plants from my 55g with this for 30 seconds looks like all/most of the clado was killed

Thanks for the advice Spypet!

-Andrew


----------



## Gatekeeper

Umm.. was the spypet reference to me for some reason? Did I come off wrong or something?


----------



## Matsu49

Looks good so far. I can't wait to read up on all the other algea's when your done.


----------



## Shavemacman

So... for BGA, what is the easiest way of adding nitrates to the aquarium?


----------



## ikuzo

dump some KNO3 (dry dosing)...


----------



## lescarpentier

I cast my vote for making this a sticky.roud: 

Nice work Glen!!


----------



## eyebeatbadgers

gmccreedy said:


> Umm.. was the spypet reference to me for some reason? Did I come off wrong or something?


I'm guessing that it was towards macclellan for posting a link? 

The link he provided is a good one, I've referred many people to it, and several others like it. 

I personally don't see any reason to make this a sticky, but would suggest instead to revamp the algae article found here on this site with some pictures, and perhaps additional information. Maybe once this article is completed and agreed upon (I don't agree with the BBA/flow idea), it can replace the current algae article on this site.


----------



## CmLaracy

lescarpentier said:


> I cast my vote for making this a sticky.roud:
> 
> Nice work Glen!!


Haha, gmccreedy is Glenn, I'm Chris lol... Still not sure if you were addressing him or me though, either way, no big deal. I have to sit down and get some more work done on this.

badgers - I've been a bit busy but will reply to your pm soon :thumbsup: 

I would like to get this stickied, it would be a convenient way to asses your algae situations


----------



## macclellan

No, I think because spypet had a quasi-religious habit of bleach dipping all his plants monthly or something weird like that...

He did have a habit for saying "search" in the most tactless ways, but I don't remember him linking to much like I did above.


----------



## bigstick120

I wouldnt waste my time Cm, there are about 700 algae links around the net

Heres another
http://www.gwapa.org/articles/algae/


----------



## ringram

BBA seems to pop up in my tanks when the flow is insufficient and Co2 is insufficient....although low flow is a contributing cause to low Co2, as circulation ensures that Co2 gets well dissolved.
Anyway, the Excel dosing is spotty at best...hasn't really worked for me. You pretty much need to scrub as much as you can (or cut) off affected areas and increase Co2 to correct it long term.

Bleach dipping? Isn't that *bad* for plants? lol
I can't really say I've tried it, but I've heard that only the tougher plants (anubias, java ferns, etc) can handle it.

-Ryan


----------



## Church

I think this thread should be resurrected, added to, and stickyfied. It just dawned on me today, for the first time, that we don't have any stickies in the algae forum, and this thread sure started off promisingly.

What if noobs come here to TPT and go directly to the algae forum looking for one?


----------



## Gatekeeper

Sticky.... Done. I only ask that Chris keep the initial post up to date as reports and experiences are posted.

I think Mac's link should be included in the first post since this seems to be a very comprehensive list already.

Lets keep the debates to a minimum. I do not want to have to moderate this thread and if I have to I will "unstick it". Stickys should be kept clean and informative.

With that... lets keep it going folks.


----------



## plantbrain

My take is always in support of decent up to date algae articles that focus on root causes, the more, the merrier.

Because we have a huge daunting task before us and we have fallen victim at some point..........the myth producing side of the internet and hogwash articles about algae.

So while some repeating will occur, it's good to get a few articles that state many of the same things. You folks would not believe the rubbish folks use to say way back when about algae.

I have not done much algae testing in recent years, not much need
But I might get back to it later and see what I can use for class room type test for the labs.

Still, it's nice to see folks doing more guides, and having enough background and info to really do a good job at it. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## fishsandwitch

hair algea entery please I am having a diffucult time with it and finding info on this site


----------



## CmLaracy

hey guys, I have been very busy, and I'm also going to be be going away for about 2 weeks in a couple days. I'm happy to see that people appreciate the work I put into this so far, and I apologize for not noticing it until now, and not adding anything else. Also, just as a note, my recent lack of activity on the forums is really just a summer time thing...

I may have time to work on this while in Bermuda, as I just recently broke my foot and will be taking it easy. Don't worry, this guide will get finished, it just may take a bit of time.

Thanks again everybody, and thanks a bunch Glenn for stickying it!


----------



## sWozzi3

good luck with the guide - your gonna need it 

anyway here is a slightly interesting story for you regarding green surface algae...

I never used to get much algae, I had a big leafy plant that used to grow real fast with leaves that got to 1/3 size of the tank! When it got so big I took one of the stems that has a new plant on it and used that to replace the old plant. I pulled out the old plant and it made a huge mess in my tank, the roots were everywhere and it pulled up my undergravel heater cable! Anyway, a couple years later I had to go through all that again, but this time I just decided to leave the roots in there and pull off all the leaves, effectively killing the plant in situ. 

This was a mistake, for months after I always had green surface algae - something I have never had before. I put this down to the roots rotting under the substrate but it wasn't much of a problem since it was easy to sipher out every 3-4 days and I am sure that it kept other algae in check, so I thought I would wait it out and see what happens.

After 6 months it got tiring and because of another issue I installed an air stone. The surface went from being still to moving like a torrent and hey presto all my surface algae vanished - now the surface is crystal clear!

But....

Now the other types of algae have made a comeback :lol:

So it seems the green surface algae was keeping all the other algae in check

Which brings me onto my question - which sounds a bit counter intuitive, or simply ridiculous, but can algae be controlled by using algae! In my example above, inducing green surface algae can be used to mop up excess nutrients since its easy to remove from the tank.

I know there are other maybe better ways of doing this but was just interested to know if anyone has anything interesting to say about how different algae's co-exist in the same tank with some getting the upper hand over others and the effect of this as a whole.


----------



## plantbrain

Green water is pretty effective at reducing other species which require far more labor, a UV/diatom filter etc and you are done with GW. But you can still have several species growing at any one time.

Algae- algae interactions supports the idea that NH4 is a strong inducer, and GW is really easy to induce at higher light values. A low residual NH4 can continue to induce new spores both from the "spore bank" as well as from adult algae already growing.

To be fair and discuss more specifics about algae, you really need a good way to measure both CO2 and light, which few if any planted aquarist have or bother with........... 

Flow and plant species also come into play.

Another big issue is *when* you are looking for cause and inducement. GW under very high light will germinate rather fast, 30-72 hours.
Other species might take 2-3 weeks to get going.
Redoing a tank and doing a large prune etc often set ups things, or some strong stress to the tank, add more light, and you increase the risk, add more variation to CO2, you will increase the risk.

So many aquarists often believe and think they did something the last day or two, and that's why they have algae, or many simply have no clue why at all(which is likely a safer conclusion).

If you do a treatment on purpose, say add NH5 to 0.5ppm with 450 micromoles at 30ppm of CO2 with say 3 species of specific plants in good health and an actively growing healthy tank, then you get GW.......then you can say something because you had control over the tank prior and then did the treatment and waited and looked for issues/results etc.

If you simply look for reasons why you get algae after the fact, do not consider measuring things like CO2/light effectively, lack the control to test anything and are looking for reasons for cause based on your bad habits.......

You cannot say a whole lot nor learn that much.

And Yet ..........over the years I've read post after post carrying on and on about "learning", trying painfully to argue their way out of a terrible non conclusive test(generally not a test at all, just an observation which they cannot say a whole lot about-but still try and do). I point this out to them. Then they turn on you for suggesting logic  how I stifle *their* learning process(gee, why the dickenson's would I do that when I'm explaining how to set up the test correctly so they actually do learn something in the long run that makes logical sense?). 

You need to sit down and think about how to answer your question. We can all speculate till the cows come home. You do not get much out of that. A few simple manipulative test that many aquarist can do, can get some answers.

I honestly do not think you will get rid of many algae species this way, rather, you'd need to learn a lot more about the algae species in question. Since plant growth without issues is the goal, that should be the primary focus. Then grow plants better and then you have a strong plant interaction with algae instead.

Still, in a well run planted tank, algae is a minor issue that is generally due to a lack of care or something we overlooked. If algae is truly a goal you'd like to learn more about, then learn how to grow/induce/germinate it. So the test should focus on those aspects, not mere observations in hopes of deciphering a complex systems.

This is the best way to find causes, then using that information, you can best approach a treatment and get at the root core issue that causes algae, which is what folks have been saying for decades: grow the plants well.

Then you do not need to focus on algae at all, which is not really a hobby here:wink: 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## A Hill

gmccreedy said:


> Umm.. was the spypet reference to me for some reason? Did I come off wrong or something?


Sorry I never checked back on this. 

It had nothing to do with you I was just adding to what you said, Spypet posted about a 20:1 dip water:bleach that I had just used to treat all my plants.

I think it was a bit harsh and I'll probably use H2O2 or PP next time but its good to know it works (I dipped all kinds of stuff moss, stems etc)

Good job on the guideroud:

-Andrew


----------



## Hilde

I would make this a sticky. I constantly read newbies asking questions about algae.


----------



## Hilde

A Hill said:


> Sorry I never checked back on this.
> 
> It had nothing to do with you I was just adding to what you said, Spypet posted about a 20:1 dip water:bleach that I had just used to treat all my plants.
> 
> I think it was a bit harsh and I'll probably use H2O2 or PP next time but its good to know it works (I dipped all kinds of stuff moss, stems etc)
> 
> Good job on the guideroud:
> 
> -Andrew


Did you rinse them off good in water with stress coat?


----------



## CmLaracy

Hilde said:


> I would make this a sticky. I constantly read newbies asking questions about algae.


It is a sticky , and I've started to work on the next couple of algae's, so updates are to come in the net few weeks :thumbsup:


----------



## @[email protected]

i thought i would mention this regarding BGA, just to add to what you said:
it definately likes lower flow. though increasing it will rarely make it go away once its there, it will keep it from forming in the first place. 
also, it likes decay. it loves fish mulm. in my tank, it always appeared first near some fish mulm in the gravel. the place it grew was on my riccia, after the bottoms died out and started to rot. i know its photosynthetic, but i think it may be capable of gaining some energy from decomposition, it IS a bacteria. or maybe its the only place where it can readily get the nutrients it needs (it can fix nitrogen, but there is still P and K), since, in a healthy tank the plants will outcompete it for nutrients that are suspended in the water column. i started vacuuming my gravel more and BGA went away.


----------



## plantbrain

BGA, look, let's all get one thing straight, this alga/cyano has no trouble getting N without even having to go to the extreme trouble of N fixation.

Think about it, fish waste=> huge source=> plant decay=> huge source, dosing nutrients=> huge source=> sediment sources=> huge source.

BGA needs next to nothing, I'd say way way less than anyone's test kits that post here and probably less than the DR 2800 I own before they become limiting enough to fix N2 gas.

Plants on the other hand will stunt long long before.
This species of BGA does not need much relative to any plant.
Plants, live ones, will leach N and many other nutrients.
Get the limitation "idea" out of the brain when plants are present.

Think about what will induce algae in an otherwise stable well run tank, then go about manipulating that suspected nutrients, gas, light, treatment etc, then fix the issue/kill it, then reset the tank again for the next run. does this 4-6 times or so. 

This is the way to figure things out, rule out possible causes or accept other cause/s tenatively. Limitation causation is very difficult experimentally for any aquarist that also keeps plants.

Best to stay away from it although I am aware of how wildly popular it is amongst planted hobbyist and a long standing mental block.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## fishboy87

I put clado in the recommendation box for the next algae! Nice work so far Chris!!!


----------



## zzyzx85

Yes...can't wait to see the clado guide. I have it in my tank and it's a nightmare.


----------



## dylanserbin

I know its not an algae, but can diatoms be incorperated in this post? and also, can you do the 1:20 on the diatoms?


----------



## SeattlesDarko

An algae guide, I love it when info is wrapped up all nice and pretty in a neat little package! Kudos from an extremely new newbie!


----------



## CmLaracy

gonna work on clado next, then diatoms


----------



## sWozzi3

Ive had 4 BBA outbreaks in 6 years.

3 of those outbreaks started shortly after the CO2 bottle running out, and not noticing for a day or two!

the other time, it was due to my pH sensor needing replacement, so the pH in the tank was sitting at @ 6.5 when it was telling me it was 6.8

so in one example it was due to a high pH(7.4) & low CO2 and the other example was because of low pH (6.5) & high CO2

These examples seem to contradict themselves, but I can totally entertain the idea that its CO2 related.


----------

