# Son of Kahuna (56K!)



## Casty

Good God, talk about high tech! You obviously know what you're doing, I can't even imagine coming up with this myself.

Can't really comment on the design, a head on shot might be easier to comment on. Tanks looks nice, hope this one goes better.


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## jebarj90

WOW. Like Casty said you are a madman. I like the tank as it is right now but I CANT wait to see what it looks like when it grows out. Good work.


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## awrieger

Holy smokes! NASA called and they want their Space Shuttle life-support system back!

Wow, I can't even imagine how much thought and effort you've put into designing and building it. And the tank itself looks great already. I'll be very interested in the long term maintenance, especially the pipe-cleaning, as it looks very complicated to me. Very impressive, Steve!


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## alexandre

Good to see your journal started.:thumbsup: 
The Discus look very nice and it seam that you don't have lost to many green neons.
How did you plant your echinos, in pots?
Your set up is mind blowing.:icon_smil


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## natx

Is the other discus tank still up?


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## Clone

It looks like we have a new definition of "high tech planted tank"


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## scolley

Thanks folks. I guess this is a bit on the high tech side.

These pics I had to snap before the top was on don't really do the stand justice. It's much better now. But I'll wait until everything is complete before I take more - probably later this week.

Things I didn't describe in the pics is my fert injection system, the auto water change system, nor the halogen lights inside the stand. And I didn't give a picture of the left hand "dry" side. All that will be in a few days.

One thing worth noting though, is something I really love - a "Feed" button. In the picture on the stand door you can see a little black box with a black wire running out of it. That wire connects to a Neptune Systems break-out box, which is in turn connected to the Aquacontroller. So when I want to feed the discus I push the button. The Aquacontroller senses the circuit being momentarily closed, and it follows its program that I've set up to shut off the pumps for 10 minutes. That way I can just toss a few cubes of frozen bloodworms in the tank and not worry about them blowing around everywhere.

And one thing that is not too obvious in the tank pic is that there is no substrate. I don't want to worry about bits of food rotting. Some of it settles in the plants, but most makes it's way down to the sand on the bottom where the discus happily pass the time picking it out.


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## senso

Steve. Fantastic looking set up. As usual you have us dumbfounded with the technical prowess of your systems. The discus look extremely healthy- speaks volumes for keeping fish in a trash can for months.


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## scolley

Thanks for stopping over Senso!

And yes, the sword plants are in pots. Everything else is on driftwood resting on sand. But sand doesn't cover the entire bottom - some of it is bare.

That's because I don't have any inflows yet - just inflow tubes hanging in the that on both sides. The tubes point straight down at the moment, and blow all the sand out of those spots. So I have to BIG bare spots. But that, and many more, little problems will get fixed over the next few weeks. For now I'm just happy to get the fish out of the darn trash cans!


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## ikuzo

> I would love to have waited until this tank looked great, and THEN showed you pics. But that's gonna be a few months from now.


It's already look great now. What kind of anubias are you using on the right side of the tank? Could you please take a picture of them.


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## RoseHawke

Oh. My. God. :icon_eek: . I don't have time to read and study all of this right now, as I'm about to go out the door to the BORG to pick up more "supplies" for this year's house project, but . . . words escape me.

Except to say - STEVE'S BACK :flick: ! Heh, heh, couldn't resist. And THAT is a totally awesome setup!

Congratulations!


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## SuRje1976

YES! WHOOHOOOO! Been waiting for this thread! Everything looks amazing so far Steve. I'm sure the discus miss their trash can though . Loking forward to the progress!


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## 2wheelsx2

Wow! This is really well thought out and laid out. I know you've stated you have some kinks to sort out, but those are minor. Your tank is classic case of spending time upfront to save time later. I wish I had thought my 125 out prior like you prior to starting it. Maybe my next one...

Congrats on getting the fish out of the trash cans!


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## PeteyPob

Lordy! That has got to be the most technically advanced tank I have seen yet. You have a great set up and this is going to be something great to watch grow. 

Best wishes.


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## blueguppygirl

One word...WOW!

All others elude me at this point.


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## kzr750r1

Good job on the big lift guys. Love the new HW plan. I look forward to the WC and dosing solutions. Great plan on the extra heaters/UVS. Also nice to hear you're trying the venturi. The greenies faired very well and discus will love their new space. All good Steve... Bet it was refreshing to tear down the trash cans. Thanks for sharing. Looks great.


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## scolley

Thanks a 'mil folks! :icon_wink This really was a case of massive up front work to save time later. And it was anything but a case of just building a stand, and then figuring out where everything went. I knew where every single thing went (within an inch or so) before it went in.

In fact, the major plumbing loop was working a week or two before I even had the stand assembled. I measured everything and had diagrams showing exactly where everything went. I had to. There's just too much crap in there to not have a solid plan for where it all goes - and a plan for how it's gonna be accessed and maintained. There are some compromises though.

For instance, the UV bulb cannot be changed without removing the Aquaclear filter. But since I have True Unions on the filter, and bypass valves to route water around the filter it's not too hard - turn a couple of ball valves, unscrew the filter true unions, and unbolt the filter (yes - it's bolted to the stand floor). Then reverse that after I've changed the UV light. I don't have to do that but every year or so anyway, so it seemed a reasonable compromse.

Oh yeah... I forgot to mention something rather important IMO. I copied something I did on the original Kahuna stand...

With all these electronics, the possibility of a leak causing an electrical problem is rather high. So I did a couple of things to help avoid that. As with common practice, I mounted all the electronics up on the sides (or doors) to get them off the stand floor.

But I also took some garage door weather stripping and mounted it around the inside top lip of the stand. And then sealed it to the stand with silicone. It's mounted at an angle so that if water leaks under the top of the tank, when it tries to run down the inside of the stand over the electronics, it will hit the garage door weather striping which channels it away to the middle of the stand - where I don't really care if it gets wet. Or maybe I should say that it's a problem, but at least the electronics don't get toasted.

Also you'll note, I got a water tight plastic box for the Aquacontroller. I drilled holes in the bottom to accommodate the the wiring for it. But that is another small, but IMO important precaution. There's just no way I gonna risk getting that puppy wet! Too important - too expensive.


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## Betowess

OMG! I'm going to enjoy reading this thread! Way to go Stevie wonder.:icon_smil


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## conduct

Wow!!
I think by far this could be the most full automated planted tank on the forum.
To be able to adjust anything from not only the LAN but also out on the WAN is incredible. 
What program do you use to accomplish these feats? 
I am really interested incorporating my aquariums in with my network. Since I am always VPN, VNC or RDP to my home network from work.

I see the linksys wireless router/switch are you using it just for a Access Point? Then it is transmitting data to your main Access Point? I am just curious. 
Also I was wondering if I could get a little more details on how the ferts are tied into the PVC and pumped.


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## Raul-7

Excellent setup Steve! Reefists would be envious of that plumbing setup!


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## scolley

Wow. I think I need to answer a few questions...

*natx *- the other discus tank bit the bullet. Go check the thread... pretty messy.

*alexandre *- my two Amazon Swords are in shallow pots with AS in them.

*ikuzo *- more pics later. For now, I've got three types of anubias; barteri, barteri v. nana, and barteri v. "round leaf".

*conduct *- The Aquacontroller III has the web server built in it. Go check 'em out at Neptune Systems. Way cool. And the Linksys wireless WAP54G is just being used as an access point client - transmitting to my main access point on anther floor of the house. I've got a single UTP patch cable between the ethernet port on the Aquacontroller and the single port in the back of the Linksys box.

Sorry on the fert stuff though. That's still not set up. I'm having to do ferts manually. Bummer. But that wasn't on the critical path. I'll have that up soon and will take pics and explain.

*Raul-7 *- I actually had to get a LOT of help from Reefers to do this! I spend a bunch of time over on ReefCentral. I learned a lot too. For starters, I learned the everyone's whining and moaning over 90 degree angles in plumbing is a bunch of whooey. 90 degree angles in PVC have an impact. But it's a small impact, and is one that I learned is easily calculated. So before I even had the system built, I knew what the flow rate was going to be, depending on which pump I bought.

There's a great spreadsheet out there that calculates it all for you - depending on the size of your pipe, number of unions, number of 90 degree elbow, etc. I had to modify it a bit though. It's setup for saltwater (go figure!), and the drag coefficients for fresh water are a bit different.

But the reefers were a BIG help with plumbing, and a BIG help selecting the right pump!


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## Raul-7

scolley said:


> *Raul-7 *- I actually had to get a LOT of help from Reefers to do this! I spend a bunch of time over on ReefCentral. I learned a lot too. For starters, I learned the everyone's whining and moaning over 90 degree angles in plumbing is a bunch of whooey. 90 degree angles in PVC have an impact. But it's a small impact, and is one that I learned is easily calculated. So before I even had the system built, I knew what the flow rate was going to be, depending on which pump I bought.
> 
> There's a great spreadsheet out there that calculates it all for you - depending on the size of your pipe, number of unions, number of 90 degree elbow, etc. I had to modify it a bit though. It's setup for saltwater (go figure!), and the drag coefficients for fresh water are a bit different.
> 
> But the reefers were a BIG help with plumbing, and a BIG help selecting the right pump!


I've spent a lot time there too. From researching external pumps to looking for the best automatic dosers. I actually fell upon your thread while looking at Poseidon and the Wahoo Sequence pumps.  

What Ocean Clear canister are you using?

I love the effort and thought you put into this and I'm sure the Discus enjoy their new home. The triple heating element on the water changer is genius!


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## scolley

Raul-7 said:


> I actually fell upon your thread while looking at Poseidon and the Wahoo Sequence pumps.
> 
> What Ocean Clear canister are you using?


If your read those threads you know I had a LOT to learn.

That Ocean Clear is a model 340 - the one with the mechanical and biological filtration.

As for the heater - no genius in that. Just necessity. But what a HUGE impact it had on my design. The Pentairs are the "double" size. The "singles" wouldn't hold heater that were big enough. Which is really too bad, because the doubles have to lay down - too tall to fit otherwise. And BOY, they do take up a lot of real estate in that stand. Deciding to get enough heating power to allow a fast infusion of cold water had - by FAR - a bigger impact on the design/layout of the stand - and impact on plumbing decisions - than any other factor.

And BTW - I LOVE this Poseidon pump. It DOES add heat (did you see that thread?). But not too much. And once you get the vibration issue tackled, it's a real sweetheart. Works like a champ, and silent as a stone.


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## tacks

Hi Steve tank looks great and well though out. good luck and cant wait to see some future pictures Ed


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## Betowess

I am enjoying reading this and trying to figure it out. One thing I particularly like is the bypass you have put into the Ocean clear filter. That is a great idea, so the flow goes on while you clean it. roud:

Are those two RO filters for the auto water change on the back right by the inflow manifold?
What lights are you using? Are those Amano MH?


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## natx

scolley said:


> Wow. I think I need to answer a few questions...
> 
> *natx *- the other discus tank bit the bullet. Go check the thread... pretty messy.
> 
> Sorry to hear that, it was enjoyable as all of your threads and interesting layout. My own interest in home automation and willingness to learn about plumbing make all of you threads great reading. Looking forward to the day when I no longer lease an apartment and can invest in a long term setup like this.


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## kzr750r1

Nice part is when that yearly peak/cleaning happens each section can be removed in small chunks. Plus most of the sections can be cleaned with reguler long bottle brushes not some custom jobber. Keeping the other closed loop active as the main components are offline is another good call.
Not much you can do but stack systems with your requirements...Your just doing it right! You've left the options open to keep some flow going for your piggies.
Look forward to more updates.


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## scolley

*Bob *(betowess) - Here's a slightly later pic I took, while the top was still off. The inflow manifold still isn't hooked up, but you can see the fert pumps mounted to the right. And this gives a better look at the RO stuff for filling the tank.

Those RO units are merely 2 carbon matrix filters, in series, to strip the chlorine out of my water.

You can't see it in this shot but the house tap water comes in the far side of the farthest back filter, passes through it, and goes to the next filter, out that filter and to a solenoid (which you can see) and from that solenoid over to the bottom of my inflow manifold. See the blue tubing?

I've done it this way for a couple of reasons. First, the carbon block filters filter the water BEFORE it gets to the solenoid- don't want anything gunking up that solenoid. And second, I'm sending the water into the inflow manifold because any place in the line past the pump is pressurized - the house water pressure would be fighting against filtration system pressure. Bringing the water in here both allows it to come into a relatively low pressure spot, and gives that new water a pass by the heaters before it gets to the tank.

And I should mention - that RO tubing has one of those little flow restrictors used on RO flush valves. That keeps the in-flow rate very predictable - not changing with varying house water pressure. You can see one here .

In this shot you can _just barely_ see the drain solenoid - it's a few inches under the fill solenoid. In the case of draining, I let system pressure work in my favor - so the drain is in-line AFTER the pump. If you go back and look at my first stand picture, you can see a bit of PVC that is capped off, just past the filter. That bit of capped off plumbing now has a barb connection, that goes to a hose that goes to the drain solenoid. And that drain solenoid, of course, has a line to my home's waste water plumbing. Simple. Right?

BTW - I'll be replacing that barbed hose with a threaded connection. That barbed connection snuck in there while I was hurrying to complete things. But I'll replace it. Bet on it.

*Tacks *- Thanks for stopping by Ed! But galls me to see "newbie" by your name though. I know better anyway!

*kzr750r1 *- I've never had a tank up long enough to need an annual plumbing cleaning. Knock on wood!


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## Betowess

OK, that is a better shot for sure. That two feet depth gives you a lot more wiggle room. Really nice plumbing layout for sure. Manifolds certainly seem the way to go on bigger tanks with bulkheads.

One thought here, since the gravity fed inflow is low pressure, couldn't you plumb your existing fert peristaltics in there, since you mentioned the pressure is too great on the outflow?


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## scolley

Betowess said:


> One thought here, since the gravity fed inflow is low pressure, couldn't you plumb your existing fert peristaltics in there, since you mentioned the pressure is too great on the outflow?


GREAT question Bob! You are absolutely right. But I've been doing fert injection for a few years now, and ferts injected into the in-line plumbing seems to add to the buildup of cr*p in the lines. So I prefer to move the fert injection just as close to the return to the tank as I can. I don't want to be feeding all those lovely nutrients to the little critters gumming up my lines.

And sorry I didn't answer before. Those lights are Aquamedic 150w HQI pendants - 10,000K bulbs. And I swapped out the stock magnetic ballasts with an Aquamedic 2x150w electronic ballast. So as big as this thing is, I'm happy to report it is stone cold silent. No plumbing noise, no mechanical noise, and no ballast noise. 

2x150w may prove to be too little light. But I want to try it, since I want to keep growth real slow, and reduce my maintenance. Just cleaning off the plexiglass seems to take forever. I definitely don't want to devote my life to trimming fast growing plants in there! Heck, even if I had the time, many places in the tank I can't reach without a step ladder.

No - I'm gonna give 2x150 a shot. Hopefully we'll have nice slow growth.


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## BlueRam

Agreed, You have a reef tank (FOLER) that just happens to have FW plants. Simply swap the heaters for chillers, skimmer for canister and you would be set for anything you could want 

Thank you VERY much for the pictures. 

The last time that particular spreadsheet was linked here (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2003/featurejp.htm) you were not as excited if I remember correctly.



scolley said:


> *Raul-7 *- I actually had to get a LOT of help from Reefers to do this! I spend a bunch of time over on ReefCentral. I learned a lot too. For starters, I learned the everyone's whining and moaning over 90 degree angles in plumbing is a bunch of whooey. 90 degree angles in PVC have an impact. But it's a small impact, and is one that I learned is easily calculated. So before I even had the system built, I knew what the flow rate was going to be, depending on which pump I bought.
> 
> There's a great spreadsheet out there that calculates it all for you - depending on the size of your pipe, number of unions, number of 90 degree elbow, etc. I had to modify it a bit though. It's setup for saltwater (go figure!), and the drag coefficients for fresh water are a bit different.


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## BlueRam

scolley said:


> In this shot you can _just barely_ see the drain solenoid - it's a few inches under the fill solenoid. In the case of draining, I let system pressure work in my favor - so the drain is in-line AFTER the pump. And that drain solenoid, of course, has a line to my home's waste water plumbing.


You could improve the system performance by using the drain water to backflush the OC canister. I will have to think about the plumbing that would be required to run the flow backwards through the canister to remove the accumulated waste.


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## scolley

BlueRam said:


> Thank you VERY much for the pictures.
> 
> The last time that particular spreadsheet was linked here (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2003/featurejp.htm) you were not as excited if I remember correctly.


Last time, if I remember correctly, I didn't need it as badly! :tongue: 

Now I really did. I had to know if this monstrosity would actually work. And it does OK. I get about 350 GPH with just the Sequent pushing water through all that plumbing. With the Eheim Pro II hooked up (no - I haven't posted pics of that yet) I'm getting a total of just a tiny shade under 600 GPH. That's not calculated BTW - that's measured.

My pleasure on the pics. Sorry they are so poor. Was in a rush, and pics were just not the major priority. Getting the tank up fast was. But as I finish things off I'll get some better pics that hopefully shows things a bit better. But my chances for a "from the top" view is over. Making sense of future pics will probably require looking at the new pics, and then referencing these old ones to understand what you are looking at - and where it is.

But when you look into the stand - in person - it's not so bad. Really.


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## Jason Baliban

OMG!! That looks like the machine at the end of Superman III!! HAHAHA

Best of luck on this one man, its a beautiful tank 

If i was to suggest anything it would be three of those pendents 

Good luck

jB


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## scolley

BlueRam said:


> You could improve the system performance by using the drain water to backflush the OC canister. I will have to think about the plumbing that would be required to run the flow backwards through the canister to remove the accumulated waste.


That is, IMO, a brilliant idea.roud: 

When you figure it out, please DO let me know!


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## scolley

Jason Baliban said:


> If i was to suggest anything it would be three of those pendents


Thanks Jason. And I am thinking about another 150w of light. Your suggestion is the easiest possibility, though if I have to get another pendant, I imagine I'd get one of the Aquamedic 3x150 plus 2x70 HQI pendants instead. 

For now, I've got my fingers crossed on the 2 150's. Thanks.


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## Raul-7

scolley said:


> If your read those threads you know I had a LOT to learn.
> 
> That Ocean Clear is a model 340 - the one with the mechanical and biological filtration.
> 
> As for the heater - no genius in that. Just necessity. But what a HUGE impact it had on my design. The Pentairs are the "double" size. The "singles" wouldn't hold heater that were big enough. Which is really too bad, because the doubles have to lay down - too tall to fit otherwise. And BOY, they do take up a lot of real estate in that stand. Deciding to get enough heating power to allow a fast infusion of cold water had - by FAR - a bigger impact on the design/layout of the stand - and impact on plumbing decisions - than any other factor.
> 
> And BTW - I LOVE this Sequence pump. It DOES add heat (did you see that thread?). But not too much. And once you get the vibration issue tackled, it's a real sweetheart. Works like a champ, and silent as a stone.


I think you mean the Velocity/Poseidon pump, not the Sequence? The ReeFlo Sequence pumps would have taken half of your stand given their large footprint (18"x8")!  

The pump is great (dead-silent), I have two of them ready to run two OC's on my upcoming tank. From what I've read and asked, the OC work much better with a pressure-rated pump. Maybe you can switch out the T1 for a T2 or T3, both of which are pressure-rated, to maximize the preformance out of the 340?


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## scolley

Raul-7 said:


> I think you mean the Velocity/Poseidon pump, not the Sequence? The ReeFlo Sequence pumps would have taken half of your stand given their large footprint (18"x8")!
> 
> The pump is great (dead-silent), I have two of them ready to run two OC's on my upcoming tank. From what I've read and asked, the OC work much better with a pressure-rated pump. Maybe you can switch out the T1 for a T2 or T3, both of which are pressure-rated, to maximize the preformance out of the 340?


You are EXACTLY right! Clearly I need to pull my head out! <<< much embarrassment >>>

I did say the wrong thing! It is indeed a Poseidon T1 - one of these.


I'm gonna go back an change my prior posts. Not to cover my tracks, just to keep from confusing anyone with my mistaken information.

And actually I looked long and hard at the different models. The problem I have is that if that spreadsheet is correct, most of the extra power of those other pumps just gets chewed up in drag, and provide only moderate increases in GPH while greatly increasing the power consumption. The T1 (or PS1) gets almost as good performance with lower power. To take advantage of those other pumps I'd have to increase my pipe size from 3/4" to 1". Or at least that's what the spreadsheet shows.


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## scolley

Raul-7 said:


> I have two of them ready to run two OC's on my upcoming tank. From what I've read and asked, the OC work much better with a pressure-rated pump.


Sounds like you are setting up for s SWEET setup!

But I'm not so sure about these needing a pressure rated pump. I say that because I tested the flow of this system with water running through all the plumbing, and with the OC bypassed. The difference was 10 GPH, or less than 3% of a speed drop.

Maybe that changes as the filter gums up. But with a clean new filter, it's just not putting that much drag on the system.


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## m.lemay

Looking good Steve!!. It already looks fantastic. Its come a long way since the short time ago that we were pulling paper off the acrylic. Oh ,and nice lights!!

Marcel


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## jpfelix

nice! i plumb to the basement so it doesn't have to be as pretty! considering what you've got in there, the stand setup is beautiful!


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## TheOtherGeoff

BEAUTIFUL...thats all i can say....

and i have a new background on my computer. i cant wait til you do a good photoshot with it. i can see alot of neat pictures coming from this


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## Boz

I can't even wrap my brain around all of that equipment, so I'm green with envy. I'm just going to wait for the PT party at your house so we can see it up close and in person! 

Seriusly, though..the tank itself is stunning, and isn't that what you were working towards? Absolutely stunning.


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## CampCreekTexas

I can't even wrap my brain around the first sentence describing all that equipment, Boz! 

But that sure doesn't detract from my opinion that it's a beauty, Steve. If you hadn't pointed it out that you have no substrate, bare spots in your sand and plants in pots, I wouldn't have noticed. I was too busy looking at the deep green of the plants and the smiles of relief on the fish. I just showed that full tank/stand pic to my hubby and said, "You know how you were wondering how to top my last birthday gift of a spinning wheel..."


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## JFalcon

Holy bejezus! :eek5:
I am in awe of what planning and experience can do.


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## NoObLet

DUDE u are nuts.... in a good way, that is a nice tank wow


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## sNApple

holy smokes! very nice


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## Raul-7

scolley said:


> Sounds like you are setting up for s SWEET setup!
> 
> But I'm not so sure about these needing a pressure rated pump. I say that because I tested the flow of this system with water running through all the plumbing, and with the OC bypassed. The difference was 10 GPH, or less than 3% of a speed drop.
> 
> Maybe that changes as the filter gums up. But with a clean new filter, it's just not putting that much drag on the system.


Thanks for the insight and all these components are run by only two PS1's? 

BTW, I have one question on the inflow manifold. How long is the pH probe? My only worry is that it might break when you close the ball valve to re-calibrate it.


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## slickwillislim

I think he mentioned loosening the ph probe. Pulling it out slightly then closing the ball valve. Atleast that was the impression I got.

WOW That is one awesome setup. You didn't cut a single corner anywhere. Very nice work.


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## uncskainch

WOW. It's so exciting to see this together -- just gorgeous, and the technological end of things is simply amazing. I can't wait to hear how you like it and what you learn as you get used to the new set-up. I'll bet those are some happy discus!


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## kwonger81

Haven't had time to read in detail just yet, but based on the pics your setup look incredible! Definitely worth the wait!! Congrats on pulling it off!


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## dufus

Hey scolly, tank looks great, you've got some real innovations there.

IT looks like you took this idea( http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/p...fully-automated-usb-fishtank-stupid-idea.html ) and made it practical.


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## Jessica

Holy Scolley. This is stunning. I can't wrap my head around the plumbing and tech. But..... this is stunning.

Can't wait to see it progress.


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## tpl*co

scolley said:


> If your read those threads you know I had a LOT to learn.
> 
> 
> As for the heater - no genius in that. Just necessity. But what a HUGE impact it had on my design. The Pentairs are the "double" size. The "singles" wouldn't hold heater that were big enough. Which is really too bad, because the doubles have to lay down - too tall to fit otherwise. And BOY, they do take up a lot of real estate in that stand. Deciding to get enough heating power to allow a fast infusion of cold water had - by FAR - a bigger impact on the design/layout of the stand - and impact on plumbing decisions - than any other factor.


WOW Steve!

I have a double that I have to get plumbed into my tank too (the singles won't fit anything worth heating a tank!). I do have a little clearance in my stand, but didn't know you could put the heater module sideways! Is there any possibilities of leaking from the top of the heater module and around the heater? Can you show more shots of the plumbing from the modules to the pump?

Tina


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## tpl*co

kzr750r1 said:


> Nice part is when that yearly peak/cleaning happens each section can be removed in small chunks. Plus most of the sections can be cleaned with reguler long bottle brushes not some custom jobber. Keeping the other closed loop active as the main components are offline is another good call.
> Not much you can do but stack systems with your requirements...Your just doing it right! You've left the options open to keep some flow going for your piggies.
> Look forward to more updates.


Looking forward to Steve thinking up some automated system for that too :icon_smil 

Tina


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## scolley

Raul-7 said:


> Thanks for the insight and all these components are run by only two PS1's?
> 
> BTW, I have one question on the inflow manifold. How long is the pH probe? My only worry is that it might break when you close the ball valve to re-calibrate it.


All these components (the ones I've desribed so far) run on just 1 PS1. That PS1, when run along, gives me right at 350 gph. It boosted to 360 gph when I bypassed the OC filter. The 600 gph figure I quoted earlier is what I get when I turn on the Eheim Pro II - which runs in a completely separate loop EXCEPT that it gets its water from the same manifolds on both ends - inflow and outflow. 

But I think I need to go back and rename those... I think I've been describing the one that takes water from the tank as the inflow (in to my closed loops), and the return as outflow. I may need to go fix that, as I just realized that I'm probably swapping the term inflow and outflow with reference to how most people would use them. Sorry if I've caused confusion!

As far as the pH probe, it's simple. I loosen the liquid tight fitting (not the ball valve) just enough so I can slide the probe out of the ball valve, but not out of the fitting (that would be gushing water!). Then I close the ball valve - now that the pH probe is no longer poking through it - and remove the probe. A little water drips out. But not much.


Thanks for all the kind words folks. More than I expected (really)! But your comments do drive a couple of things home to me:

1) It's a shame that I didn't have time to get things completely assembled before I had to put the stand to on. It would look a lot less jumbled. Now I'm just gonna have to take pics through the doors.

2) It's confusing to look at for many people. Hmmmm. I guess that was to be expected. The limited space meant cramming a lot into a small space, so the various systems are intertwined. Too bad. Because if you can get your head around a few things, and understand that they might have wires/tubing running through each other, it's really not that complicated.​
Let me sum it up....
*
Plumbing system*
- All water comes into the plumbing from holes in the bottom of the tank.
- All that water comes into a manifold.
- That manifold combines that water (from multiple sources) and feeds it to two filter loops.
- One filter loop is simple - just an Eheim Pro II
- The other filter loop is more complicated. It has a Poseidon pump, moving water into an Ocean Clear filter, which flows into a Pentair UV module, then moves through 3 Pentair heater modules sequentially. From there it goes through a Mazzei venturi for CO2 injection.
- Both these filter loops - the Eheim and the Poseidon - return their water to another manifold, where the water is combined and then split between two hoses that go out the stand and back to the tank, up the sides and into the top.

*Fert System*
- Ferts are injected into the Poseidon loop, from storage jugs (not shown in my pictures)
- There are two jugs, and two peristaltic pumps that move ferts from the jugs to the Poseidon loop.
- The fert flow from the jug, to a peristaltic pump, and then through airline tubing to one of three (one's for later expansion) ports in my Poseidon loop. The ports are black tube you can see just after the Mazzei venturi.
*
Drain/Fill System*
- The Drain and Fill are really completely separate.
- The Drain is just plumbed from the Poseidon loop to my home plumbing. But there is a normally-closed solenoid in the middle of the line that connects the two plumbing systems. So water only squirts out my Poseidon loop into my home water drain only when I apply electrical power to the solenoid - which opens a valve.
- The Fill works just like the drain, but in reverse. And it has a couple of RO type carbon block filters in-line that strip out the chlorine before it goes into the Poseidon loop
- There is a final piece to fill that I haven't documented (or photographed) yet. It is a little pressure sensor that detects the height of the water in the tank, and if it thinks there is enough, it cuts the power to the fill solenoid - no matter what.

*Lights*
- 2 150 watt Aquamedic pendants, 10,000K HQI bulbs
- 1 Aquamedic electronic ballast, 2x150w, swapped out for the stock magnetic

*Electronics*
- Its' all run by the Aquacontroller (AC3)
- The AC3 has two 8-plug power strips hanging off it. It turns each of those plugs on and off based on how the AC3 has been programmed.
- The AC3 also has two probes, a temp probe and a pH probe
- The AC3 also has another connection that allows two more circuits to be "sensed". I've wired one to the "feed" switch I mentioned, and the other to the water depth sensor.
- The AC3 is programmed to turn plugs on and off, based on time of day, pH, temperature, or the open or closed contition of the other two circuits I mentioned. So turning lights, CO2, heat, pumps, whatever, is just a few simple programming statements in the AC3 that keep it all running.
- And the AC3 has a webserver running in it. So by hooking it to a wireless connection to my home network, I can point any pc's browser to it's website and observe and manage what's going on in the tank.


I think that's it. I may have forgotten something minor - but that's certainly all the big stuff. So like I said... not that complicated really. There's just a lot of pieces. But no particular piece is particularly complicated. Or so I'd like to think!

Thanks for the kind feedback. I promise to get more/better pictures soon.

PS - Hey Tina! Those filters are MADE to go horizontal. No leaks. But you have to buy a horizontal mounting kit.


----------



## daFrimpster

go scolley, go scolley, go scolley :thumbsup:


----------



## ryoken

Whoa, it's amazing what a monkey in a suit can accomplish! =P

Seriously though, sweet equipment setup, I can't even get my mind around it.

Did you leave the tank basically barebottom so you can siphon out detritus? Along the same lines as a barebottom reef? You could even use some stem plants in this layout, just hide the bottoms and use weights or small pots... very interested to see how this turns out when your scape is done, it's looking good already.


----------



## nornicle

i think this puts the cost per fish in terms of equipment about on par with marine.. which is pretty serious for freshwater! 


Scolley what is it you do in real life (i.e. print money?! )


----------



## scolley

ryoken said:


> Did you leave the tank basically barebottom so you can siphon out detritus?


Exactly! roud: 

Nornicle - I don't print money. :icon_frow But I do work for people that print money. They share a little... but not as much as I would like. :icon_wink 


Thanks Sam!


----------



## fish man 101

its a reef without saltwater.:icon_smil :icon_surp 

seriously though that is absolutely awesome mate. ingenious work with the plumbing . When Kahuna 1 died i was extremely saddened that was a sweet setup . but now i think you new one will be even better.!

Nice work with the AC III too. I have the Jnr. so i dont have the web server function which would be sweet to have as i like to know what my tank is doing when i am away. oh well next tank:icon_smil 
awesome work i am very jealous.
P.S. watever job you are in, change it to a plumber:tongue:


----------



## original kuhli

*Aquacontroller*

Scolley,

Great work. About the Aquacontroller, what functions are you utilizing that required you to go to the III model vs the Jr? I'm guessing web serving but there must also be something else... Also, did you consider any other controllers?


----------



## BlueRam

nornicle said:


> i think this puts the cost per fish in terms of equipment about on par with marine.. which is pretty serious for freshwater!


Sadly I think he is only running ~1/2 the equipment of a reef tank. 

Additional expense:
2X lighting plus supplemental actinics ($$$)
Sump with skimmer ($-$$$)
Calcium reactor ($$$)
Pumps to get closer to 3000 GPH ($$)
Reworked WC system with large storage vat in basement ($$$)

A quick estimate for a "basic equipment" reef in upfront costs is ~$1k per foot of tank.


----------



## Raul-7

original kuhli said:


> Scolley,
> 
> Great work. About the Aquacontroller, what functions are you utilizing that required you to go to the III model vs the Jr? I'm guessing web serving but there must also be something else... Also, did you consider any other controllers?


Don't mean to bud in, but here's a start: http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium...s_aquacontroller_comparison_chart.asp?CartId=


----------



## original kuhli

No problem, you're not butting in whatsoever, the link is dead though...


----------



## 2wheelsx2

original kuhli said:


> No problem, you're not butting in whatsoever, the link is dead though...


Link worked for me...


----------



## Beancurd

I had to right click the link and "open in new window" to get it to work for me. 

I love the Kahuna series of threads on this forum.


----------



## original kuhli

so...it comes down to:

Aquacontroller 3 has these features the junior doesn't:

ORP control/monitor (don't care)
Conductivity control/monitor (don't care)
Dissolved Oxygen monitor/control (could be used to estimate growth - don't care)
Communications (RS232, Ethernet,Web Server, Telnet Server, email alarms
Power failure indicator
20 plugs controlled (vs 12 for jr)
external modem support.

For me, the junior would do the job...


----------



## scolley

Wow! Too much to comment on it all... thanks again for the comps. But to answer a few questions:

I had (still have and need to sell) a perfectly good AC Jr. So buying the AC III was an agonizing decision. It all boiled down to the 12 plug vs. 20 plug control, plus the web server, and the Aquanotes access over a network. AC Jr has Aquanotes access, but only over a serial port, or RS-232 or some such (if you have the serial port - and I do). But no way was was running a long PC line to the tank and keeping a PC near it. And the 12 AC plug limit was a killer.

And I wanted to completely lose all dependence on X10. I had a DC8 (covering 8 plugs) but the other 4 were X10 controlled. I wanted to get out from under that, and get them all direct connected. Plus I have more than 12 plugs. Plus I craved that web access. I LOVE my AC Jr. But that little finger pad for making changes s*cks. Had to have the web control and monitoring.

So it kinda came down to my "no corners cut" philosophy on building this tank. Could I have spent more? Sure. But not much on a planted tank. And BTW, I'm past that $1K/ft Blueram mentioned... way past it if you include fish, driftwood, and plants. Kinda makes it shameful that the aquascape doesn't look better. :redface: 

PS - My Posiedon pump, Eheim Pro II pump, air pump, and fill solenoid are all on right now. My lights, 3 hearters, 2 peristaltic pumps, UV, CO2 solenoid and drain solenoid are all off. And my pH 6.65, temp 84.8, and my fill depth sensor says the tank is not full, so the fill solenoid can keep on filling. And I didn't get up from my chair to check that out.:icon_wink


----------



## fish man 101

*Ac Iii*



scolley said:


> And I wanted to completely lose all dependence on X10. I had a DC8 (covering 8 plugs) but the other 4 were X10 controlled. I wanted to get out from under that, and get them all direct connected. Plus I have more than 12 plugs. Plus I craved that web access. I LOVE my AC Jr. But that little finger pad for making changes s*cks. Had to have the web control and monitoring.
> 
> PS - My Posiedon pump, Eheim Pro II pump, air pump, and fill solenoid are all on right now. My lights, 3 hearters, 2 peristaltic pumps, UV, CO2 solenoid and drain solenoid are all off. And my pH 6.65, temp 84.8, and my fill depth sensor says the tank is not full, so the fill solenoid can keep on filling. And I didn't get up from my chair to check that out.:icon_wink


That is so cool that you can check that without leaving your computer chair. I should have spent the extra cash and bought the AC III i think 

Also i would love to have use Direct Connect boxes over X10 too bu they sont have the DC that run on 240V and have our Aus plugs:icon_evil :icon_evil awesome work Steveroud:


----------



## A Hill

nornicle said:


> Scolley what is it you do in real life (i.e. print money?! )


Hey one of my friends did that... Worked well until he had to go to court!

Scolley, this tank is amazing and the thread has gotten too long already, I'll have to finish reading it tomorrow... but amazing work Steve, The scape rivals most members here, and this is Without substrate.

I like those new fish!!

-Andrew


----------



## scolley

Fish Newb said:


> ... and the thread has gotten too long already, I'll have to finish reading it tomorrow...


Yeah, I know. Thanks Andrew.

I'll try to take some more pics this weekend. That's what the thread needs - more pics!

That way, at least, we'll all have some good memories before I go on a three week vacation in a couple of weeks, and it all turns to cr*p. :tongue: 

Hope not... but the pictures will tell the tale. <<< needs fingers-crossed icon>>>


----------



## Yzmxer99

Scolley....wow. You have raised the bar for aquatic system planning and implementation in the planted tank community. ( I just described your tank set up as "sexy" to my fiance! lol) 

There is a great foundation here and I can't wait for it to develope.


----------



## Hop

Looking great scolley! Now your starting to get the big tank syndrome Want to come to the darkside? JJ.

Really like the attention to detail, next you have that AC hooked up to do your waterchanges and dosing while on the road


----------



## Gill

Such a stunning tank


----------



## A Hill

scolley said:


> Yeah, I know. Thanks Andrew.
> 
> I'll try to take some more pics this weekend. That's what the thread needs - more pics!
> 
> That way, at least, we'll all have some good memories before I go on a three week vacation in a couple of weeks, and it all turns to cr*p. :tongue:
> 
> Hope not... but the pictures will tell the tale. <<< needs fingers-crossed icon>>>


Yeah Scolley, If you want this to have more pictures then the written side you might have to buy photobucket's servers! We all know that we type too much in your topics.:icon_roll 

I think these vacations really screw you up (TANK WISE) but I think having the tank online will help:icon_smil 

Your tank will be fine!

-Andrew

PS, I think thats only the second picture of our wonderful mod on the forum. Is he mad?:flick:


----------



## Brunog

Great tank!...

im amazed with all the electronics!

Suggestion : When you leave for a three week vacation, why not put a webcam on it, that way you could check on everything 

or maybe you have already?

I'l have to do something like this!! 

in a few years..


----------



## Raul-7

Brunog said:


> Great tank!...
> 
> im amazed with all the electronics!
> 
> Suggestion : When you leave for a three week vacation, why not put a webcam on it, that way you could check on everything
> 
> or maybe you have already?
> 
> I'l have to do something like this!!
> 
> in a few years..


I think that's what AquaController is for; it takes care of everything.


----------



## BlueRam

Fish Newb said:


> Yeah Scolley, If you want this to have more pictures then the written side you might have to buy photobucket's servers! We all know that we type too much in your topics.:icon_roll


Steve is nice enough to host his high resolution pictures on his own server. Very classy.


----------



## A Hill

BlueRam said:


> Steve is nice enough to host his high resolution pictures on his own server. Very classy.


Ohh yeah that's true, I forgot that! 

I guess he'll just have to buy a new one for this tank:icon_roll 

-Andrew

PS. Any coasters near by? :hihi:


----------



## scolley

Today is the two week mark for the SoK. I've still got a little ways to go in the stand... still need to hook up the ferts, and need to tidy the wiring up and label everything.

And the tank is doing OK. I'm getting some GSA or GDA on the sides. But I've been without CO2 until yesterday. My Milwaulkee regulator died on me. Maybe I banged it around or something - moving between tank. I dunno. But I got a new Aquarium Plant "Ultimate Controller" model. I like it MUCH better, and AT LAST my plants have a bit of real CO2 - not the stuff from the Excel bottle. Hopefully that will discourage that GDA.

I've got the drain/fill hooked up and am working through the long process of getting the timing just right - and the sensor set to just the right level.

And I got some black inflows. I wanted something that would agetate the surface, and make the hetal halides do that shimmering "swimming pool" effect in the tank. And it works GREAT! And looks GREAT IMO.

But the fish hate it. :icon_sad: 

They had been out and really lots more comfortable in the tank. But now they are back to staying near the plants, ready to run. Seems all that shimmering makes them uncomfortable. I'm hoping they'll get used to it, because in person it's lovely. Doesn't really show much in pictures. But up close it's real cool!

briandmiles came over today to pick up the original Big Clear Kahuna. I'm thrilled that it will get fixed and get a good home! You can read about that here.




Really a great guy! I couldn't be happier. And I got him to pose infront of the SoK, since now he has the BCK.

And here's a couple more pics. Not that great photography, and the fish are hiding, but hey... the pics will improve with time! :icon_wink


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## LondonDragon

Amazing setup  love the tank and the discus


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## fishymatty

Do you have any advice on how to get my discus out of the forest. They spend all their time hiding in the plants.


----------



## plantbrain

Add more swords!

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## turtlehead

Sparse but LOOKING GREAT! I agree more swords like a pirate


----------



## Raul-7

You can use the 'backwash' function on your OC to clear it of debris and at the same time drain your tank; automate it using a solenoid. See no reason why it should not work.


----------



## Harsh

Amazing!! :thumbsup: 

but it will look even better with some more plants.


----------



## 5380

Did you consider using fans for the surface agitation? Why didn't you choose to do a drip system where the drain didn't have to be controlled?


----------



## scolley

LondonDragon said:


> Amazing setup  love the tank and the discus


Thanks!



fishymatty said:


> Do you have any advice on how to get my discus out of the forest. They spend all their time hiding in the plants.


I'm not the guy to ask, but...
1) Get more than 3 or 4 fish
2) Get juveniles, not adults
3) Keep them hungry - make them come out for food
4) Feed them little, often, so they have to keep coming out, and having good things happen when they do
5) Give them easy hiding places - IMO having difficult to get to hiding places adds to the stress. If it is easy to get, they seem less likely to go.



plantbrain said:


> Add more swords!
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Thanks. Will think on that. Don't want too many plants though.


turtlehead said:


> Sparse but LOOKING GREAT! I agree more swords like a pirate


Ditto.



Raul-7 said:


> You can use the 'backwash' function on your OC to clear it of debris and at the same time drain your tank; automate it using a solenoid. See no reason why it should not work.


Thanks. Blueram suggested that too I think. I'll ponder an easy way to do that. Good idea!



Harsh said:


> Amazing!! :thumbsup:
> 
> but it will look even better with some more plants.


Thanks. But I think it will look better with about the same number of plants, just more judiciously arranged. That will come with time. It will always be on the thin side for plants. I want to be able to too food in there and not worry about too much of it getting lost in plants. Fewer plants - less maintenance. Less trimming, fewer places for rotting food to hide, so less food for algae.



5380 said:


> Did you consider using fans for the surface agitation? Why didn't you choose to do a drip system where the drain didn't have to be controlled?


Considered fans, sure. But more obtrusive visually IMO.

I don't like drip, or any other form of continuous water change method. The mixing factor is massive unknown - particularly in a system designed to have good flow and circulation like this. Only with a fixed period of "drain only" time, followed by distinctly separate "fill only" periods can you KNOW the rate in which you are changing your water.

It's a trade off, and also a philosophical question too. I'm willing to go to great lengths in setup and preparation, in order to make the tank low maintenance in the long run. Knowing - to a high degree of certainty - the rate at which I'm turning over water goes a long way to that end.

Sorry. :icon_roll Long answer to an short question. :redface:


----------



## ringram

It's a-l-i-v-e!!
Very nice work. It will only get more stunning with time, I'm sure.
Your work with the plumbing is pure mastery. I don't think I could even dream up a system like that, let alone put it together.


----------



## briandmiles

*Impressions*

First off, I have to say that it was great to meet Steve and all of his family (except the Ferret). Some of the nicest people you could meet, really. I spent a couple of hours at Steve's house cramming the BCK and stand into the back of my car and then had the opportunity for an up close tour of the Son of Kahuna. 

I guess I'll start from the top and work my way down. Looking at the pictures 300w of MH lights doesn't seem like it ought to be enough but in person it is much brighter. The plants and the fish seem to be doing very well considering the extended garbage can stay. I think there is a general consensus that the tank is lightly planted but I think it will fill in after a couple of weeks. Steve's right about the inflows, it gives it a great rippling effect on the plants and substrate.

The aquarium itself is a work of art. Beautifully assembled and polished liked mad. I don't think there is a single sharp edge on the tank but I didn't inspect edges on the bulkhead holes.:hihi: 

Having seen all of the plumbing in person and being able to go over it all up close makes it far less complicated than it seems when looking at the pictures and reading Steve's descriptions. Not to take anything away from the setup. It is a very well thought out and elegant system that accomplishes exactly what it's designed to do and has all the back ups and redundancies you could possibly want to make things easy when it comes to maintenance. Having said that I'm guessing there are already 3 or 4 things that Steve wants to change (at least one for sure).

Brian


----------



## mecgeorgeneo

hey steve, congratulations on finally getting those fish outta trash can life, that acrylic tank looks beautiful and the size is awesome! looking at the inside of your stand gives me a headache... i don't know how you do it. i can't wait to see the tank fill in, great job!


----------



## scolley

Thanks ringram. Thanks mecgeorgeneo. :smile: 

And thanks briandmiles (Brian)!


*BRIAN'S POST*
He didn't say so, but I put Brian in a tough position. I told him that in return for the BCK, I wanted to show him the SoK, and for him to post his impressions - particularly the stand. I asked that he post is honest feelings, though I did say that is was my hope that after seeing the plumbing first hand, that he would feel that it is not as bewildering as it must seem through my crappy pictures and descriptions.

Though I did insist that he post what he really thought. After having shared in our meager hospitality, he may have felt compelled to say nice things only. I hope he feel free to be critical - if merited. You guys need an independent second opinion. No good taking my word for stuff...


*THE HUGE WOW FACTOR HERE AT PT*
As I reflect on the fact that I wanted a good second opinion for you guys, it reminds me why that's necessary. With rare exceptions, it's hard for an amateur to take good pictures of fish or plumbing. So I walk in to the room and see the tank (with plants and fish) and it almost takes my breath away. Really. With the humble aquascaping it has now. But I KNOW it looks kinda lame in the pics.

I'm bringing that up not boast about my tank - but to call your attention to the enormous number of tanks people have posted here at PT that look awesome in pictures. Since I know from personal experience that pictures just don't do justice to actually seeing a tank in person - then how AWESOME must all those tanks look in person? When they already look KILLER in the posts? It's humbling.

But it's EXCITING too - to be part of a community with people that are doing such BEATIFUL things with living aquatic gardens. It's just WAY cool. And it makes me wish I could go over to the homes of many people here, and see their tanks up close and personal. And experience some of the real WOW factor. 

But until that time, I'll keep plugging away at the SoK and stand, and sending pics as things (hopefully) improve.


*PS *- The whole tank has sand now. The ferts system is about 1/2 way assembled. The drain/fill system is 95% operational (just minor tweaking left). And best of all, the discus are coming out most of the day now, with relatively few stress bars. Sorry you missed that Brian - they were still stressed by brand new CO2 and flickering shadows when you came by. But two days later they are somewhat better adjusted.


----------



## RoseHawke

Well, I know you are very honest in your postings Steve, the bad as well as the good. I'm not that brave. I only (mostly anyway) post pix of when my tank is at its best. About one week out of eight on average :hihi:. Although at the moment it's sort of in "hold" mode as it were since I've got other projects going on to which I'm having to pay attention. 

I must say though, if I'd been a bit closer I'd have been tempted by the Kahuna myself although I could _never_ have done it justice! Very much looking forward to Brian's "Resurrection of the Kahuna."

Steve, I've always enjoyed your posts and it's very obvious that you just plain like to write! (Out of curiosity, what's your typing speed?) Your posts are always very well done, interesting, and informative to read. I've learned a lot through your trials and tribulations. One of these days you might have a 'Bama native gal on your doorstep asking to see your aquatic weeds !


----------



## scolley

RoseHawke said:


> One of these days you might have a 'Bama native gal on your doorstep asking to see your aquatic weeds !


Any time Cindy! I might have married a yankee, but I do love seeing ladies from home!

BTW - I should type less. I don't type quickly, but I do spend an enormous amount of my professional time communicating by email. So "talking" to people in the written word is kind of second nature now.


----------



## medicineman

Ah... another scolley's tank, sucessfully running. Congrats!

This new one is a technological marvel, a good example of useful applicable technology on a private tank.

Now I can learn and copy a thing or two for future convenience... :icon_roll


----------



## cheesehead

*Amazing!*

That's a great setup!

I'm setting up a 220 right now, taking a long time because my basement needs to be remodeled first. I'm looking at setting up a pale imitation of SOK... mostly to automate water addition, both tap & RO (I've got liquid limestone here) and fert addition. (My tank won't be its own website, tho! :icon_lol:  )

I've got a question - where did you get the fittings for the pH electrode (and other probe) feedthroughs & what are they called? Like you, I'm looking at getting all the "stuff" out of the tank.

Your posts are wonderful inspiration. Thanks from a planted tank vet & forum newbie.


----------



## FelixAvery

i was just thinking about your crazy aparatus scolley , you should get one of theese mounted to the front of your tank to display ph, water temp and stuff
http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus-mini/
you KNOW u want to


----------



## cleekdafish

wow wat a tank.shes a beaut!:eek5:


----------



## scolley

medicineman said:


> This new one is a technological marvel, a good example of useful applicable technology on a private tank.


Coming from you... that means a lot. Really. Thanks!



cheesehead said:


> where did you get the fittings for the pH electrode (and other probe) feedthroughs & what are they called?


Thanks a mil. Everything you need to know about those fittings are found in this thread.



FelixAvery said:


> i was just thinking about your crazy aparatus scolley , you should get one of theese mounted to the front of your tank to display ph, water temp and stuff
> http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus-mini/
> you KNOW u want to


That IS a joke. Right? I'm not a tech maniac. :icon_wink I just use it where it makes sense. Or so I'd like to think...



cleekdafish said:


> wow wat a tank.shes a beaut!:eek5:


Thanks.


*TANK UPDATE*
I'm preparing to go away for about 3 weeks, so I'm trying to get the tank stabilized, and ready to run itself. But it's work...

I've run into a lot of new GSA on the anubias, and some GDA the plexiglas. But I had no CO2 since my regulator broke. With that replaced now I'm gradually been increasing it to the point that I have about 35-40 ppm. I'm gonna leave it there.

I've also been VERY inconsistent with my dosing while I get my autodosers set up. As a consequence I've bottomed out on potassium TWICE in the last week. I know this because I've got one of those wonderful Lamotte Potassuim test kits. I was pissed at myself both time. The tank seems to be absolutely RIPPING through potassium, and the algae outbreaks seemed to be on the back of both these occasions. My fault.

But I've got the dosers running now, so that won't happen again. So with the CO2 working, and the ferts being delivered, maybe I can go away for a few weeks.

I seem to have almost no otos left anymore. And I can't have more than a dozen Amanos. So I don't really have a clean-up crew to speak of. But I don't have time to mess around with that now. I'll just have to see what I have when I get back.

But the fish are getting more "open", less hiding, fewer stress bars. And the plants are all pearling and sprouting new leaves. So all's well. If I'm lucky I'll have a chance to pop a few pics this weekend - in between packing and preparations for the long trip.


----------



## Betowess

Steve, you're bound to have a new tank diatom flood. Maybe the family could round up a dozen Otos while you're off on the trip?

I got creamed by diatoms on a re-start. I mistakenly thought it was a red algae initially.Then I got a six pack of Otos to supplement the three I stole from my 65G and it was off to the races. Cleaned up in three days.


----------



## scolley

Betowess said:


> Steve, you're bound to have a new tank diatom flood. Maybe the family could round up a dozen Otos while you're off on the trip?


I'm not sure this is a "new tank" Bob. Maybe in some regards, since some surfaces have never been exposed to my biofilter - like the tank (with GDA!), some new plants (with GSA!) and the plumbing. But most of the tank is not new...

My Eheim Pro II came right off a trash can, which came straight off the BCK - I worked hard to ensure that biofilter was intact. And most of the driftwood, plants, fish, and even water, came from the trash cans - which in turn was from the BCK (well not the water - but there was continuity there) - so the biology of the tank is seasoned. I've just got some new surfaces that have never been exposed.

Maybe there's a lesson learned there. Hmmmm......

And the family can't help. No way cleaners are going in that tank without a vicious cycle of medicated quarantine. Can't trust the kids with that. And the wife is going with me... 20th wedding anniversary with "Maureen the Long Suffering Wife of the Insane Hobbyist" - London, Amsterdam, a villa in Tuscany, and finishing off with Paris. Should be lovely!

Gonna try to forget about plants and fish for a while...


----------



## kzr750r1

Sounds like an awesome trip.

Whatever you do there will always be a surprise.
All you can do is give it what is needed according to the signs you've been provided so far.

I'm with Bob though, sorry, your going to go through some new tank cycle while your out. Mainly for all the reasons your mentioning.

Even after a complete replant I've seen a diatom bloom. But every setup is different...

Glad to see this tank up and running... Very inspirational as usual.


----------



## tropicalfish

Very nice!!

I am not sure if I saw this in the thread, but what are those purple-ish connectors on the piping?


----------



## scolley

Before I go off on vacation in a few days, here's a few pics. The really don't show the tank that well... mostly fish. But I'm in a hurry. Better than no pics at all. I hope.





























If you are interested in more fish pics, I posted more over at Simplydiscus.com, under a thread there - also called "Son of Kahuna". I figured that makes sense... it's a discus site. I'll still post most of my stuff here, though I do take discus specific questions there. Only makes sense really. And BTW, I send plant questions there over here - the best planted tank site on the net!

I"ll try to get some better stand pics for you, when I return.


kzr750r1 and betowess - if you look close - or click to get a bigger picture - you can see the GSA and GDA. And BTW, in some pics you can see the millions of micro CO2 bubbles from the venturi.

tropicalfish - those are plain old PVC connections that you can find anywhere. The purple you see is just a primer with purple stain that I had to use with the flexible PVC.


----------



## dufus

Looks great, the fish are absolutely stunning, glad they made it all this way.


----------



## Jessica

*sends positive Kahuna juju for over your vacation*


----------



## Betowess

Looking great Steve! And nice to see in the context of the room and the glass door outside too. I did see the micro bubbles on the large resolution - that's cool. Its also neat to see shadows from the MH, something you just don't see with T5s. Sorry that I forgot about the extensive quarantine regimen - to introduce new fish. :redface: Anyhow, have a terrific vacation! I'm jealous ( of the tank and the vacation, LOL).


----------



## Megalops

scolley said:


> Those RO units are merely 2 carbon matrix filters, in series, to strip the chlorine out of my water.
> 
> You can't see it in this shot but the house tap water comes in the far side of the farthest back filter, passes through it, and goes to the next filter, out that filter and to a solenoid (which you can see) and from that solenoid over to the bottom of my inflow manifold. See the blue tubing?
> 
> I've done it this way for a couple of reasons. First, the carbon block filters filter the water BEFORE it gets to the solenoid- don't want anything gunking up that solenoid. And second, I'm sending the water into the inflow manifold because any place in the line past the pump is pressurized - the house water pressure would be fighting against filtration system pressure. Bringing the water in here both allows it to come into a relatively low pressure spot, and gives that new water a pass by the heaters before it gets to the tank.


I'm curious to know if your tap water contains chloramines or not? If yours does not, do you know if this same type of system could be used with chloramine treated tapwater? I found this site: http://www.thefilterguys.biz/chloramine_filters.htm where they claim their CGAC filters remove chloramine, but I'm wondering how often I'd have to change these if I'm replacing 225 gallons of water per week. I know enough about chloramines that I don't want to find out that my CGAC filter has expired the hard way.


----------



## Megalops

Scolley,
I also have a substrate question. You mentioned before that your swords are potted, and there is no fertile substrate in the tank. I'm guessing this will be your permanent design for this tank?

Due to the warnings you gave me on my thread, I was considering the exact same strategy. I figured that if the planted tank idea ended in catastrophe, that I could easily remove them and quickly move to a driftwood only setup without having to remove all the substrate. To me, Discus are more important than plants, so if both don't workout together, discus will prevail.

I know you're heading out for vacation, but I'm anxiously looking forward to hearing what your fertilization routine will be. I should have my system up very soon, and I hope you don't mind my copying some aspects of it when I do mine.


----------



## scolley

Thanks Dufus! I'm happy for the fish too. They seem to be OK, anyway. I seem to have lost a lot of otos and Amanos though...

Jessica - I need all that positive juju I can get. On the personal side, there's lot's of stuff trying to conspire to keep this vacation from happening - and my wife deserves it so much, and wants it so bad, I DO hope we actually take it. So I'll put that juju in my pocket, and pull it out if things look dicey. Thanks!

Thanks Bob. I'll tell you, I'm thrilled with the MH decision. Obviously you can't see it in the photos, but that whole swimming pool lighting effect is awesome. I did it because I deliberately planned on a very simple layout, with very few plants. The MH lights, and that rippling effect adds both motion and texture to the tank that makes it so that a very simple tank actually looks almost stunning in person (IMO). But pics can't capture it. Maybe I need to do a video.



Megalops said:


> I'm curious to know if your tap water contains chloramines or not? If yours does not, do you know if this same type of system could be used with chloramine treated tapwater? I found this site: http://www.thefilterguys.biz/chloramine_filters.htm where they claim their CGAC filters remove chloramine, but I'm wondering how often I'd have to change these if I'm replacing 225 gallons of water per week. I know enough about chloramines that I don't want to find out that my CGAC filter has expired the hard way.


On that site you'll find this quote "CGAC followed by RO and DI seems to be the best non-chemical intensive method of treating chloramines" at the top. And "THIS IS DESIGNED TO BE USED AS A PRE FILTER ADD ON TO YOUR RO MEMBRANE AND DI CANISTER FOR CHLORAMINE REDUCTION." for their dual stage CGAC.

As I understand it, you CANNOT USED CARBON ALONE to remover chloramine. I'm lucky. I have chlorine only. If I had chlorimine, I'd have to have a RO filter to strip out the ammonia that is left over after the chlorimine goes through the carbon. And that means, by definition, as more expensive, more finicky, higher maintenance, and slower flowing filter.

As for expiring most manufacturers recommend replacement every 6 months if you want to be SURE your carbon filters don't wear out on you.


----------



## scolley

Megalops said:


> You mentioned before that your swords are potted, and there is no fertile substrate in the tank. I'm guessing this will be your permanent design for this tank?


Yes. But I've still got more work to go. The bottom line is I want to have a bottom that is fairly open with sand covering it. Discus love picking food out of sand, and I don't want it getting hidden in substrate and rotting.



Megalops said:


> Due to the warnings you gave me on my thread, I was considering the exact same strategy. I figured that if the planted tank idea ended in catastrophe, that I could easily remove them and quickly move to a driftwood only setup without having to remove all the substrate. To me, Discus are more important than plants, so if both don't workout together, discus will prevail.


Very clever, and a very good idea IMO. Might be a path to follow for all people that want to try discus in their first planted tank. That doesn't change the fact that I still think it is next to insane trying to START your first planted tank with discus in it. You still need to give that tank (and your planted tank skills) a good 6 months to settle in before trying discus. IMO.



Megalops said:


> 'm anxiously looking forward to hearing what your fertilization routine will be. I should have my system up very soon, and I hope you don't mind my copying some aspects of it when I do mine.


Imatiation is they highest form of flattery they say. And I post so the community can learn. So my hope is that you will copy - if you are so inclined - those things that work for me. And stay the heck away from those things that I screw up - I post that too... :tongue: 

My fert regimen - at that moment - could not be simpler. Every day I put n 10 ML of ADA Green Brighty Step 1 for micros. I would prefer that to be more like 15-20, but I'm running low. If my order arrives in the mail before I depart, I'll be increasing it.

And I also add enough home mixed K2SO4 solution (Greg Watson Potassium Sulfate dry ferts mixed with distilled water) to raise my K about 5 PPM. You can use Fertilator to calculate that value in dry weight for your tank. Or do a search on Fertilator. At the moment, I'm not at all sure 5 PPM is the right amount for my tank. Early on I had serious Potassium deficiency going on, and I've got to get this daily fert level set before I go away. Thank goodness for that Lamotte Potassium kit!

I'm not dosing N and P through ferts. It's in my water. With a 20% daily water change (approximately) I get enough Nitrogen and Phosphate from the tap water - and the discus and food mess - that my N hovers at about 10 ppm, and P around 1.0 ppm. Just the right ratio. And they never drop below 8ppm N, and 0.8 ppm P. Nor do they climb above 12 N or 1.2 P. So I'm happy.

Oh, almost forgot... CO2 in the 35-40 range.

Nice lean water column. Not too much light. Plenty of CO2, though far from excess. Hopefully this will yield nice slow, low maintenance, low algae (I hope) growth.


----------



## scolley

scolley said:


> I've run into a lot of new GSA on the anubias, and some GDA the plexiglas... But I've got the dosers running now, so that won't happen again....


Famous last words! WOW! I've had an algae EXPLOSION over the last 4 days! I've never seen anything like it. I've been tearing my hair out trying to figure out what was wrong. As precaution I cut my micros to dose only half as long... didn't make a bit of difference. I can SEE the algae difference BIG TIME from one day to the next.

I only had enough micros (ADA Green Brighty Step1) to pour 1/2 a bottle into my dosing jug. I knew I would run out before I got back from vacation, so I ordered more. It came in today, and I went to the far end of my stand to pour more into the dosing jug, and WOW! It was EMPTY!  My dosing pump was ON! and just turning and turning, dry pumping.

A little experimentation and I found that my AC III can turn my micro pump on, but it can't turn it off! So four day's ago, when I first set up the dosing pumps, it pumped half a bottle of micros into the tank! I guess that might be responsible for a little algae. :redface: 

I'm not sure what the problem is, no time to mess with it before going away. I assume it has to do with the electrical limits of the DC8 - that I've been ignoring. I pluged it into a little 2 plug Aquacontroller outlet (DC2?), and it worked just fine. But doesn't work in the DC8.

And needless to say I promptly did a 90% manual water change.

So that little drama is over. Glad I figured it out before I left. I would have left with a tank SWIMMING in micros, with none being added over 3 three weeks as it slowly eliminated them completely with the automatic water changes.

So I've got my fingers crossed for tomorrow to show no new algae growth. Would at least show that I accidentally found the problem.



PS - This is ENTIRELY my fault. When I was setting up the micro and macro pumps, I tested the electrical connection to both, and then I tested the AC JR turning the macro pump on and off. I assumed that since I knew they both were wired correctly, if it could turn one on/off, the other one would work too. I got sloppy and lazy, and it was nearly really bad as a result. Seems like I made that kind of mistakes with some silicone a few years ago...

It's about time I learn to stop cutting corners. :icon_frow


----------



## Momotaro

> I've been tearing my hair out trying to figure out what was wrong.


Summer is just about here, and the temperatures are climbing. Notice how a LOT of people here are all starting to struggle with algae?

I am _strongly_ starting to believe there is a correlation between temperature and all types of algae growth.

Mike


----------



## dufus

Of course there's a correlation momotaro, algae thrives at higher temps, that's why ponds ussually get bad greenwater during summer, unless you know what to do.

scolley: wow, that's an odd event. i geuss you still have a lot of bugs to work out huh.


----------



## epicfish

dufus said:


> Of course there's a correlation momotaro, algae thrives at higher temps, that's why ponds ussually get bad greenwater during summer, unless you know what to do.
> 
> scolley: wow, that's an odd event. i geuss you still have a lot of bugs to work out huh.


...ponds get bad green water because of the intense lighting. If you covered your pool and heated the water up, I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be as bad green water, if any. Wrong cause-effect relationship.


----------



## dufus

Yes, but they don't get the GW in the winter, below 50*. the warmer temps. encourage algae.


----------



## epicfish

dufus said:


> Yes, but they don't get the GW in the winter, below 50*. the warmer temps. encourage algae.


...yea, cuz there's not as much sunlight in the winter. 

Sorry for the threadjack, scolley.

Now back to your regular programming...


----------



## macclellan

epicfish said:


> ...ponds get bad green water because of the intense lighting. If you covered your pool and heated the water up, I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be as bad green water, if any. Wrong cause-effect relationship.


<philosopher's rant mode>
Of course intense lighting is a necessary condition for green water, but it alone is not sufficient. Don't mistake a necessary condition for a sufficient condition. The point was just that higher temperatures 'cause' algae in the sense of facilitating its growth, not in the sense of a 1:1 causal relationship, as almost nothing in the real world works that way. Many are experiencing algae outbreaks now, at the start of summer. Obviously it isn't just the lighting that is causing the algae, as this is constant year round in most of our tanks. Wrong cause-effect relationship. 
</philosopher's rant mode>

Have fun on vacation scolley.


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## scolley

I didn't get green water. Just GSA and GDA.


----------



## nornicle

macclellan said:


> <philosopher's rant mode>
> Of course intense lighting is a necessary condition for green water, but it alone is not sufficient. Don't mistake a necessary condition for a sufficient condition. The point was just that higher temperatures 'cause' algae in the sense of facilitating its growth, not in the sense of a 1:1 causal relationship, as almost nothing in the real world works that way. Many are experiencing algae outbreaks now, at the start of summer. Obviously it isn't just the lighting that is causing the algae, as this is constant year round in most of our tanks. Wrong cause-effect relationship.
> </philosopher's rant mode>
> 
> Have fun on vacation scolley.


it's really funny that you mention that, because i think its NAW 1 where Amano talks about how summer is when plants slow down in their growth and it is a time to watch them, and that in winter it is when his tanks take off the most  i really liked his writing, i forget where and when


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## Bert H

Steve, I just found this today. All I can say, is I can't say! Speechless and awed by it all.  It is truly a tech marvel!

And as far as the tank itself - it's beautiful! I'm sorry to hear about your dosing mishap there, but I'm sure you'll take care of that.

Hey have you ever considered a side job in tank set up designing?  Seriously. 

BTW, have a great vacation!


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## scolley

Thanks Bert!




Momotaro said:


> Summer is just about here, and the temperatures are climbing. Notice how a LOT of people here are all starting to struggle with algae?
> 
> I am _strongly_ starting to believe there is a correlation between temperature and all types of algae growth.
> 
> Mike


I have learned, through recent observation, that the summer sun shines directly into the bottom right hand of my tank for about an hour each morning. That is GDA central. And the temps have been rising pretty high. Setting the tank temp to 84 makes it climb to 86-87 during peak sun on hot days. So while we are in warm weather, I'm setting the tank time to 83, in hopes that it will only peak at 85 or 86. It's only a degree, but every little bit counts. 

The algae has improved a LOT over the last couple of days. So I think I found the major contributor of the problem. So I'll give inside glass a good wipe down tonight, then it's off for almost 3 weeks! Will be interesting to see what's there when I return.

Cheers!


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## dufus

Hmm, do you have a webcam setup so you can look at the tank too? that would be something i would think about, spot diseases or mishaps in the tank.


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## vibes_jedi99

very very nice HI-TEC tank.


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## ianiwane

Does look nice. What did you do to stem the hair algae problem? I find that if you reduce the lighting period it is a sure fire way to kill hair algae.


----------



## dufus

scolley said:


> I only had enough micros (ADA Green Brighty Step1) to pour 1/2 a bottle into my dosing jug. I knew I would run out before I got back from vacation, so I ordered more. It came in today, and I went to the far end of my stand to pour more into the dosing jug, and WOW! It was EMPTY!  My dosing pump was ON! and just turning and turning, dry pumping.
> 
> A little experimentation and I found that my AC III can turn my micro pump on, but it can't turn it off! So four day's ago, when I first set up the dosing pumps, it pumped half a bottle of micros into the tank! I guess that might be responsible for a little algae. :redface:


That was the problem.


----------



## scolley

dufus said:


> Hmm, do you have a webcam setup so you can look at the tank too?


Short answer. No. Long answer... already priced it out, and "No, not yet". Good question!



vibes_jedi99 said:


> very very nice HI-TEC tank.


Thanks!



ianiwane said:


> Does look nice. What did you do to stem the hair algae problem? I find that if you reduce the lighting period it is a sure fire way to kill hair algae.


Wow! That was 2 tanks ago! I found that pulling out the silver coaster buried in my substrate that was poisoning the plants works well. And if you tear down the whole tank works very well too! :biggrin: BTW - We can probably go round and round about common names vs. true scientific names with the algae in question. But we RARELY know exactly what algae we are dealing with, and my personal algae from hell experience was what I belive is commonly referred to as "thread" algae, "hair" being somewhat different. But I'm no expert.



dufus said:


> That was the problem.


Agreed!

With the 90% water change to get the excess micros out of the tank, the algae seems much more "normal" now. I get it on the acrylic where direct sun hits it. And I get a bit beyond that. But not much more... as it should be.

So I'm leaving presently, and I'm hoping that in a few weeks I'll return to find that problem is pretty much solved. I hope.  

See you in a few weeks. :smile:


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## dipan

Very nice work Steve !!!
The plumbing work is impressive. The fish are beautiful. I'm glad they made it through all these changes and still seem very healthy. They look vibrant in their new home ...


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## scolley

*Green green green green...*

*GREEN *

...that's what my tank was when I got back from almost 3 weeks away. Primarily GDA. The real thick kind, I know you've seen it, so I didn't bother with a pic. I'm talking about the stuff that covers every inch of the glass, and you can only see the fish if they come up real close.

About two hours before I left on vacation I found that my new CO2 regulator's bubble counter was leaking. I fixed that in a hurry, but in the process, couldn't be too sure about the bubble rate. Well, couple that with my foolish decision to set my water level a bit low turned out to be a bad combination.

The bubble rate turns out to have been too low, but at night, when I do three small water changes, the water level was going so low that the inflow tubes created a LOT of splashing, and completely (I mean COMPLETELY) out gassed my tank every nite. The low bubble rate during the day meant that the CO2 ppm just could not catch up... and then it would get out gassed all over again.

And to make matters worse, I wasn't turning on the CO2 until I turn on the MH lights. But the tank gets all kind of ambient sunlight during the first hours of the morning. So my CO2 was in the pits. And my AC III was wicked cool in that it keeps a log of pH readings, 1 reading every 10 minutes, that really prove what I just stated was really occurring. No guessing games...

Fortunately the fish and plants fared very well. :icon_smil 

The tank (once I cleaned the glass) was a jungle. I've got one sword that is HUGE now. And I've got some other plants I put in that I've not mentioned yet. :icon_wink Well, they took off like gangbusters in my absence, and the tank is much more interesting now, much better filled in IMO.

And the fish if clearly in rut. :hihi: When I got back both ends of the tank had eggs on the sides. And I've got a new pair that put a large clutch of eggs on an anubias leaf yesterday afternoon. They'll all get eaten by the tetras, but I'll take this as an indicator the the discus are finally happy and adjusted in their new home.

But pics will have to wait. I want to conquer this GDA first if I can. And now I've to leave again for a week. So the tank got two days of attention - cleaning - water level setting - CO2 fixing - and now I've got to go again. Hopefully it will not be too bad when I return. We'll at least be able to see if the CO2 level helps.

More in a week. Fingers crossed on that GDA.

PS - Thanks Dipan!


----------



## eklikewhoa

Awesome tank!!!!


----------



## jaidexl

Sweet super-hi-tek tank! Does it transform into a decepticon?


----------



## lumpyfunk

Steve,

WOW is all I can say! You continue to overcome challenges that would dishearten (at the least) most of us. Simply stunning tank, please keep updating with new pics.


----------



## barfly

wow!

this setup is awesome! if i were some strand of plant, i'd definitely want to live in your tank. it's like some kind of smart home for plants. dude, you can monitor your tank while travelling. how cool is that? 

mine'd be like the slums. there is no plumbing, food (ferts) come by irregularly, electricity (lighting) come on sometimes and not other times. it doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in the same paragraph as yours. hahaha!!

way to go man.


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## dakotaice

Great tank Scolley! I can tell keeping aquariums is more than just the plants and fish to you. Way to go 

I saw someone earlier teasing you about how much this set up must have cost! I looked up Westport, Connecticut on Wikipedia and found it was "one of the most affluent communities in the United States." What a surprise!


----------



## lasutaku

What plant is that on the left side that is reaching to the surface?
Some sort of dwarf lily?


----------



## scolley

eklikewhoa said:


> Awesome tank!!!!


Thanks!



jaidexl said:


> Does it transform into a decepticon?


No... what I'm really hoping is for it to transform into a low-maintenance tank. But I've got to get past my GDA problem first. 



lumpyfunk said:


> Simply stunning tank, please keep updating with new pics.


Thanks Lump! I do owe everyone some new pics. Soon...



nicksgirl7705 said:


> I saw someone earlier teasing you about how much this set up must have cost! I looked up Westport, Connecticut on Wikipedia and found it was "one of the most affluent communities in the United States." What a surprise!


I live in the _poor _part of Westport. You know that by the fact that I actually set up and maintain my own tank. I'm sure most people in this town would not be caught dead with an aquarium that did not come with a contract for someone to set it up and maintain it. :hihi: 



lasutaku said:


> What plant is that on the left side that is reaching to the surface?
> Some sort of dwarf lily?


Wow! Great question! I didn't realize that little guy was showing in those pics...

I'll answer that just as soon as I post my next set of pictures. Once you see the pictures, you'll see that I really have no choice. But I'm glad that's in this pic... that way people will believe me when I show you the new pics and say "I planned on it looking like that". :icon_wink


----------



## scolley

*new pics*

I've got a few new pics here. The little leafy thing lasutaku asked about was clearly a lotus. I've got tonnes of them. And I'm letting them grow to the surface to provide shade for the anubias and moss.

The GDA algae is not TOO bad now. Seems to be under control. Though I'm not really cleaning it down to the edges of the sand (very often) because of the whole "sand scratching acrylic accidentally while cleaning" thing. My real problem is some BGA that is taking up residence on the sand where the sun hits it. I've upped my KNO3 just in case, and am starting a 5 day Maracyn treatment to kill it fast. I'm scared of that stuff.

But the fish are laying eggs quit a bit, so I assume they are happy. The annubias are rather sad, lots of GSA, and poor growth, so I'm trying to get to the bottom of that. I think it may be due to my ignoring iron. Not a spec has gone into this tank until a couple of days ago. I'm hoping that'll help.

Anyway, I hope you enjot the pics. And BTW - I DID NOT trim, or clean up for these shots. I DID clean a decent amount of GSA off the tank walls a 5 days ago, but that's about it for prep work. This is what the tank is starting to look like, day in and day out.

Thanks for looking! Oh, yeah, they are clickable if you want a look up close at a bigger pic.













































I don't mind saying, the tank is settling in (I'll get past the small algae probs soon), and it's not taking too much work. And the fish seem happy. So it is REALLY turning into a joy to have. Tomorrow is always another day with planted tanks I know, but right now... I'm happy. :icon_wink


----------



## ikuzo

i'm sure you'll get past the algae problem easily Steve. your fish are amazing. i always love discus, but having problems keeping them happy. those anubias definitely need something to shade them.


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## dufus

The Lillies look great, but they look unruly, in time they will bloom though.


----------



## Raul-7

Awesome Steve! The hard work and money has definitely paid off, the Discus look at home in that spacious and well-aquascaped tank. 

IMVHO, the only thing that is missing is more fish. All I see are Neons, Discus and one lone Tetra. I think an upper surface fish like Penguin Tetras or Pencilfish would liven it up.


----------



## sNApple

I love everything, tank, scape, lights, fish... 
Questions...
How is the sword planted in such little substrate? 
Do the cardinals swim near the discus?
Are you happy with the 2x150w?
Is the tank 72" long?

Thanks! Sorry if any of these questions have been asked.


----------



## scolley

Thanks folks!

Answers"
The swords are in very low plastic pans that have two holes punched in the bottom. Then a piece of wire is looped through the hole and over the plants, and tighten. That secures the plant to the pan. It's a trick I learned keeping bonsai. And the pans are filled with Powersand topped with AS.

The cardinals keep clear of the discus. When there is any activity by the discus, they school - which is exactly what I hoped. Some time soon, when I have time for a long quarantine and when the tank is stable, I want to increase the school from its current 50 (or so) to 150. They should school even better then.

The 2x150 would be better if it were a 2x70 w/ 3x150. There are lights out there like that, but I couldn't spring for it PLUS the money for replacing the magnetic ballasts w/electronic. Ballast noise makes me NUTS. That would allow 2x70 for viewing most of the day and 3x150 for s short noon-grow period. So the 2x150s IS a compromise. I'd rather have more light at peak, and less light most of the day. And I really need a third because I'm not getting enough side to side spread - but 3x150 is too much light all day.

And yes, the tank s 72" long.

Raul I can't believe you noticed that misc. other tetra! I don't know what that is actually. And I did NOT want it in my tank! But when I had the trash cans full of fish, my kids came home from a baby-sitting job with that fish in a baggie. Seems the owners had the fish for almost five years in a kids aquarium, where various mis-adventures had killed all the other fish. They killed the entire tank - all but this fish - on more than one occasion. It is the fish that will not die.

I did not want it (REALLY!) but compassion got the better of me. It lived thought the quarantine. And now he has a name "Trooper", and Trooper is much bigger than we got him. And he is the one tetra that when the discus are getting fed, he swoops in to make sure he gets his share. So after a life of hell in a tiny kids tank, he is living out his golden years with lots of room, in a stable environment, being very, very well fed. We should all do so well... :icon_wink


----------



## dufus

he looks like an albino serpae or white skirt tetra.
Good thing he has an awesome home now.


----------



## 2wheelsx2

I really like the effect of the MH lights. I guess it'll have to be in my future plans for a tank.


----------



## PDX-PLT

Have you thought about BN plecos to help with the algae? I got a small albino right now in a 20 that gets some sun, and the algae is no longer a problem.


----------



## fishscale

scolley, I saw that you have the SOK posted on the Simply Discus forum. I know that this is kind of frowned upon, but how do you view pages or post on that forum? I registered and activated, but I still can't look at any threads. 

Might be a while before I kept discus, but I've been doing research all year for a tank I'm setting up next month


----------



## Subotaj

high level!
superb.


----------



## scolley

dufus said:


> he looks like an albino serpae or white skirt tetra.


Yeah, I've never been sure... What I want to know is how did Raul-7 see it? I can't see it in any of the pics? Maybe I need to look harder.

BTW - I wasn't trying hid it, I just wasn't thinking about it. FWIW there's a zebra loach in there somewhere too.



2wheelsx2 said:


> I really like the effect of the MH lights.


The lighting actually looks better in person. I deliberately got outflows that have a fanned lip that puts ripples in the surface of the water. With the floating lotus leave, and the ripples, and the point-source HQI lights, the swimming pool effect is awesome. But you can't tell in a picture. Maybe a video might show it... That swimming-pool effect is THE reason I got MH lights. I knew it wouldn't help much in pictures, but in person, the flickering light in the water makes movement - even if nothing is moving. Very cool.




PDX-PLT said:


> Have you thought about BN plecos to help with the algae? I got a small albino right now in a 20 that gets some sun, and the algae is no longer a problem.


Don't BN's rip up acrylic tanks? I thought they were a no-no in anything but glass.



fishscale said:


> scolley, I saw that you have the SOK posted on the Simply Discus forum. I know that this is kind of frowned upon, but how do you view pages or post on that forum? I registered and activated, but I still can't look at any threads.


What's frowned upon? Posting same/similar stuff in two different forums? If so, why?

Or do you mean asking about joining other forums? I could see that raising some eyebrows. But MANY people here post on multiple forums - for different reasons. I take my hard core discus question straight to Simply. And I would not dream of asking a plant question anywhere but here. And all my hard core plumbing questions go to ReefCentral.

As for activation, I think their Mods have to do something before you get actual access. I remember waiting a few days myself, and then in desperation sending an email (maybe a pm) to one of their mods, begging to get me set up. If it doesn't happen soon pm me and I'll try to help.


----------



## fishscale

Ah ok, I'll just wait it out then. I've been coming back to my computer to see if I can look at threads every hour. Sometimes, I think I have a problem. :icon_roll


----------



## Raul-7

scolley said:


> Yeah, I've never been sure... What I want to know is how did Raul-7 see it? I can't see it in any of the pics? Maybe I need to look harder.



On the third picture, right above the lone Discus facing the front pane. 


BTW, how is the Mazzei venturi doing? Does it completely diffuse the CO2 or does it produce a mist of annoying CO2 bubbles?


----------



## scolley

Subotaj said:


> high level!
> superb.


Thanks! You ninja posted on me BTW!



Raul-7 said:


> On the third picture, right above the lone Discus facing the front pane.
> 
> 
> BTW, how is the Mazzei venturi doing? Does it completely diffuse the CO2 or does it produce a mist of annoying CO2 bubbles?


Really? I gotta go look!

The Mazzei is doing GREAT! It WILL produce a mist, but that annoyed the heck out of me, so I tweaked it. Now it completely dissolves the CO2, and just BLASTS the pH down. So fast it's scary. Between that and the AC II, which reads pH to two decimal places, my pH is pretty much rock solid. It spends the day fluctuating by 0.02 - bouncing between 6.11 and 6.13.

If you are thinking about Mazzei's I highly recommend them! But be forewarned. I KNEW what both the pressure (in PSI) and flow (in GPH) was in my lines BEFORE I decided which one to order. So this particular Mazzei is very well matched to my application. And for me it is awesome. I will never go back to a reactor. Never.

Well, probably not anyway.


----------



## dufus

In post 139 pics 8 and nine he's hiding in the anubias.


----------



## Raul-7

scolley said:


> Really? I gotta go look!
> 
> The Mazzei is doing GREAT! It WILL produce a mist, but that annoyed the heck out of me, so I tweaked it. Now it completely dissolves the CO2, and just BLASTS the pH down. So fast it's scary. Between that and the AC II, which reads pH to two decimal places, my pH is pretty much rock solid. It spends the day fluctuating by 0.02 - bouncing between 6.11 and 6.13.
> 
> If you are thinking about Mazzei's I highly recommend them! But be forewarned. I KNEW what both the pressure (in PSI) and flow (in GPH) was in my lines BEFORE I decided which one to order. So this particular Mazzei is very well matched to my application. And for me it is awesome. I will never go back to a reactor. Never.
> 
> Well, probably not anyway.


I already bought it after you recommended it the first time! Can't wait to get it put together; just waiting for some free-time and to reinforce the floor joists.


----------



## scolley

Raul-7 said:


> I already bought it after you recommended it the first time! Can't wait to get it put together; just waiting for some free-time and to reinforce the floor joists.


Raul - I only have a single experience to go off of. But here is what I've found...

I've run some simple tests, and the degree to which you choke down your primary flow, diverting the flow to the Mazzei does not matter much. Yes, it does choke flow down to a tiny point - but only momentarily! It seems that the choke point is so well controlled (in terms of gradually reducing tubing diameter), and so brief (as in an almost immediate opening up of diameter - but not so fast as to create turbulence) that it has very, very little bearing on your GPH. 

I ran tests with my plumbing bypassing the venturi completely (that's straight thought - the Mazzei is on u-shaped a bypass line), and with the plumbing's ball valve choked back enough to make the Mazzei have enough water flowing through it to suck CO2 fast enough to make my pH drop like a stone. Now the result is the kicker... the difference was SO LITTLE, I didn't even bother to write it down. I dunno... maybe 350 GPH through the line unobstructed, vs. 345 GPH with the Mazzei running full bore? I honestly don't really recall. But I do know the difference was so small I knew that it could be attributed to flaws in my measurements. In other words... its impact on flow (if sized properly) is meaningless.

Seems hard to believe, but I proved it to myself with my plumbing before I installed it in the stand.

So IF you got the RIGHT size for your plumbing, I'm sure you'll be thrilled too. Good luck with those floor joists!


----------



## Raul-7

scolley said:


> Raul - I only have a single experience to go off of. But here is what I've found...
> 
> I've run some simple tests, and the degree to which you choke down your primary flow, diverting the flow to the Mazzei does not matter much. Yes, it does choke flow down to a tiny point - but only momentarily! It seems that the choke point is so well controlled (in terms of gradually reducing tubing diameter), and so brief (as in an almost immediate opening up of diameter - but not so fast as to create turbulence) that it has very, very little bearing on your GPH.
> 
> I ran tests with my plumbing bypassing the venturi completely (that's straight thought - the Mazzei is on u-shaped a bypass line), and with the plumbing's ball valve choked back enough to make the Mazzei have enough water flowing through it to suck CO2 fast enough to make my pH drop like a stone. Now the result is the kicker... the difference was SO LITTLE, I didn't even bother to write it down. I dunno... maybe 350 GPH through the line unobstructed, vs. 345 GPH with the Mazzei running full bore? I honestly don't really recall. But I do know the difference was so small I knew that it could be attributed to flaws in my measurements. In other words... its impact on flow (if sized properly) is meaningless.
> 
> Seems hard to believe, but I proved it to myself with my plumbing before I installed it in the stand.
> 
> So IF you got the RIGHT size for your plumbing, I'm sure you'll be thrilled too. Good luck with those floor joists!


Thanks for the great insight as always!  I'll be sure to follow up on my thread.


----------



## scolley

*Lessons Learned*



plantbrain said:


> Scolly, you have gone wild with the plumbing:bounce:
> Plumb wild.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


This is a quote from Tom in another thread, but it is referencing my plumbing shown in this one, so I figure it is a good launching point for a discussion of what I did wrong when I built this stand and plumbing set up. There were, on my part, more than a few painful lessons learned.

*Things I know now, that I WISH I knew before:*

1) Getting a tank more than 18" deep (front to back) GREATLY reduces the number of commercially available stands.
Not knowing that cost me a LOT of time and some money. If you are considering a new tank, think long and hard about getting one that exceeds the 18" threshold. Far, far fewer stands are available that can accommodate a tank deeper than that.

2) You can't trust an Eheim Universal pump under pressure.
I was burned by this before. But I thought I just had a leaky pump. Nope. Eheim Universals will not hold back much pressure in-line at all. I'm not sure where the break point is, but it is much less than 5 PSI. If you put one of these pumps in an application with that kind of pressure, expect it to leak. Or if it waits awhile, and then leaks later... well, I warned you.

3) Some electrical cords won't be long enough for a 6 foot stand.
What! This was a surprise. Many, many pieces of electrical equipment for aquariums have cords less than 6', or at least not long enough to run the length of a 6' stand, once you start snaking the cord around things. I have my electrical outlets on one side of the stand - the dry side. It was a bummer when I found out that many the cords for many appliances on the other end would not reach. I was blindsided by that little surprise.

4) 1" PVC tubing would have greatly improved my flow, but at great expense.
I built my stand with 3/4" PVC through out. Upon getting my hands on a spreadsheet that could help me calculate flow and flow resistance in my plumbing, it became immediately clear that the difference between the performance of 3/4" vs. 1" plumbing was profound. But the downside is, 1" PVC costs a LOT more. For my stand it would have added up to way more than $100 more in cost. But in retrospect, it may well have been worth it.

5) Gloss, or Semigloss, varnish is not good for the inside of a stand.
When I varnished my stand, I selected a nice, attractive semigloss. And then I heavily varnished it all. It seemed like a good idea. I wanted too waterproof it all. Right? Well its a bad choice for the inside of the stand, because EVERY time you open the doors and look in... it looks WET. Great for the outside, but a nice satin finish would avoid a lot of needless stress if applied to the 
inside.

6) Frequent, tap water fed, water changes, if you live is the chilly north, and if you have Discus, means you are going to have to have MASSIVE water heating capability. 
When I let water flow into the tank, at normal house pressure, in the wintertime - my tank temp can drop like a stone. That meant that I had to have 3 BIG heaters to RAPIDLY warm the water if I wasn't going to put my discus into shock each time I did my nightly water change. This single factor, 
combined with my refusal to put heaters in my tank, and my refusal to use Hydors with their barbed connections (vs. reliable, water tight, threaded connections) forced me into buying three HUGE Pentair heater modules. If you see the pics of my stand, you will see those three monsters dominate 
over 6" feet of stand. From a space perspective, this proved to be a very costly decision.

7) It is HARD, and expensive to eliminate barbed fittings from your stand.
I decided that I wanted bullet proof plumbing, or as close as I could reasonably get. That meant refusing to use any components that required barbed connections. I know, some of you will want to debate this - sorry, it's my opinion. And yes, I DID make exceptions in my stand. But only where I was almost forced to. But this was a difficult decision. When you start eliminating components because of barbed fittings, you really begin to limit your options. In retrospect I'm TOTALLY happy with my decision - peace of mind is very valuable IMO - but it definitely made things much harder.

8) Vibration isolation is hard.
When I decided to have a pump that powered water into a passive filer, I introduced a LOT of potential vibration into the system. Now conventional wisdom says used several feet of flexible tubing after your pump to drastically reduce vibration in your plumbing/water. That's easily done. But the real hard part is eliminating the vibration in your stand (and obviously the tank) caused by mounting the pump. To reduce that to undetectable levels (by me only - who knows what the fish detect?) I had to locate some sorbothane grommets on the web. About $25 for three as I recall, to mount the pump to a vertical board. That vertical board, in turn, had to be secured to the floor of the stand, but the brackets had to be cushioned by another $20 worth of sorbothane pads. I have very little vibration now, but it was an expensive PITA.

9) Ocean Clear filters have seal problems.
I LOVE my filter. But GOSH help me when I have to clean it! I had a TERRIBLE time getting it to not leak. There is a ring on top that has to be tightened down. Tighten too little and it leaks. Too hard, and it leaks. I spent a LONG time on the phone with their tech support. Ultimately I learned that though I was hitting it with a hammer to tighten it - I wasn't hitting it hard enough! Bottom line... they are clearly used to these things leaking until someone spends serious effort whacking that sealing ring with a hammer to make it REALLY tight.

10) Two wraps of Teflon tape is enough.
The vast majority of my plumbing is threaded PVC. I did a LOT of wrapping with Teflon tape. And I came to the conclusion that if any part of a threaded connection has more than two wraps, it may bind when you connect it. Less than two wraps in a spot, and it may leak.

11) All Teflon tape is not created equal.
I'm not sure how to provide guidance on this one, but I'll just say you'll have fewer leaks - or weeping connections - if you buy the best Teflon tape you can get your hands on. Forget Home Depot. Forget the stuff that comes supplied with some components. Try Aquaticecosystems. For the few extra bucks you'll save a LOT of heart ache.

12) It a threaded connection "skips" as you are tightening it, you have a high likelihood of a leak.
I'm not sure why, but a good threaded connection is very smooth when you tighten it. As it gets tighter turning it further gets harder. But is should still be a "smooth" motion, even if difficult. If it "skips" though - hard to turn then SKIP! to a tighter point where the turning slows down again - that's the telltale sign of a bad seal. Best to unscrew, re-Teflon, and start over.

13) If you are building a threaded PVC system, buy lots and lots of PVC close nipples.
Close nipples are used to connect two female threaded PVC parts. You go through them like crazy. But many, many of your connections will be taken apart. That could be because you change the design, or it "skipped", or you did something wrong. Either way, once you unscrew a tightly screwed PVC close nipple it's ruined. Buy plenty of extras.

14) Exploding PVC!
You CAN over tighten threaded PVC. This only happened to me once, and BOY! What a surprise! Apparently PVC is pretty tough stuff, and can take a lot of pressure. So much so, that if you seriously over tighten it, when it finally gives, IF it gives, it can give with EXPLOSIVE force. I was in the stand tightening a replaced connection with some pliers and BANG! It blew into several NASTY looking pieces that could have put my eye out EASILY if I hadn't been lucky. A word to the wise.


I'm not sure if these lessons learned will help you. But if I ever undertake something like this again (not likely!) they will definately help me. Once burnt, twice shy!

Hope it helps!


----------



## original kuhli

Scolley, you're the man, I'm about to get started on my plumbing...very timely. I have the 1 inch FX5 deal going on, I need to do some testing to verify that the pump/chip won't fail with inline equipment, but other than that I'm ready to go.


----------



## Defchilde

*Steve*,
I have been religiously reading your treads since the “Big Clear Kahuna” build started, and I’m most impressed with the development that you have provided to the hobby in terms of pushing forth the concept of planning and designing the plumbing system as an integral part of the aquarium. Sometimes, I think that you are way too hard on yourself, most of us could not even conceive the idea of such a set-up, let alone create it with so few errors or mishaps.

Until you started these threads, it would have seemed that all filtering systems in the freshwater hobby was simply tubes connected to canister filters hanging over the tank’s walls into the water.

That said, I would like you to expand on some of your points….


scolley said:


> 1) Getting a tank more than 18" deep (front to back) GREATLY reduces the number of commercially available stands.
> Not knowing that cost me a LOT of time and some money. If you are considering a new tank, think long and hard about getting one that exceeds the 18" threshold. Far, far fewer stands are available that can accommodate a tank deeper than that.


Now knowing this info, would you have a stand custom-built from the start or stay within the 18” confines? I currently have a 120g which is 18” and find it limiting, and would rather have gone with a 24” tank.



scolley said:


> 4) 1" PVC tubing would have greatly improved my flow, but at great expense.
> I built my stand with 3/4" PVC through out. Upon getting my hands on a spreadsheet that could help me calculate flow and flow resistance in my plumbing, it became immediately clear that the difference between the performance of 3/4" vs. 1" plumbing was profound. But the downside is, 1" PVC costs a LOT more. For my stand it would have added up to way more than $100 more in cost. But in retrospect, it may well have been worth it.


I was under the impression that *Pentair* heater modules and *Ocean Clear filers* all have ¾” connectors. If you used 1” tubing, would it not cause a bottleneck at these points, reducing the flow to what would pass through? I must admit that fluid dynamics was not my best subject in college.

Also, would you still have chossen the *Ocean Clear* if you had known of the leak issue? Is there another filter that you wished you had chosen instead?

I hope that one day my plants and fish are as lucky as yours.

Johnny.


----------



## Raul-7

As always, Steve, you provide us with in-depth information and helpful tips! You're definitely an asset to this hobby. 


Johnny, the Ocean Clear has 3/4" barbed fittings, but the canister's outlet/inlet are actually 1". And other than the OC, the only other canister that comes close is the Nu-Clear. But when I researched the two, the Nu-Clear has a limited range of media compared to the OC.


----------



## scolley

original kuhli said:


> ...I'm about to get started on my plumbing...very timely. I have the 1 inch FX5 deal going on, I need to do some testing to verify that the pump/chip won't fail with inline equipment


That sounds really exciting! But honestly, I don't have a clue what you are talking about! What's an FX5? And where's the chip?:icon_mrgr Really.




Defchilde said:


> Would you still have chossen the *Ocean Clear* if you had known of the leak issue? Is there another filter that you wished you had chosen instead?


First, I want to thank Raul for the absolutely correct answers he provided with respect to the filter. Thanks!

But I'm REAL happy with the filter choice. It's massive. I can go digging around in the tank and really muck up the water, and in 2 hours or so it's crystal clear. I love it.

And I've figured out that I my plumbing (quite by accident!) is set up so that I can EASILY reverse the flow through the filter and use it's built in drain to back flow water through it and clean the filter. Since I installed it I've read about many people who do this. I had not planned on this benefit, but I'm anticipating that it could well be a year or more before I actually have to remove that d*mn lid, because I'll be flushing it clean with back flow.

So, no I would not want another filter. I think this is going to work out GREAT!

Also Johnny, thanks for the very kind words. Coming from you that means a lot. Thank you.




Raul-7 said:


> Johnny, the Ocean Clear has 3/4" barbed fittings, but the canister's outlet/inlet are actually 1". And other than the OC, the only other canister that comes close is the Nu-Clear. But when I researched the two, the Nu-Clear has a limited range of media compared to the OC.


And thank YOU Raul, but as like the example you set yourself, we all do our part!

I never really realized that about the Nu-Clears. I'm still thinking real hard about replacing my backup filter - the Eheim Pro II - with another Ocean Clear. But I've been wondering if I should make the 2nd one a Nu-Clear instead. Just to try it...

But if you have any thought about why I should, or should not, do that... I'm all ears.

Thanks!


----------



## scolley

Defchilde said:


> ..would you have a stand custom-built from the start or stay within the 18” confines? I currently have a 120g which is 18” and find it limiting, and would rather have gone with a 24” tank.


I'm THRILLED with my 24" tank, and would not do it ANY differently. That extra 6" makes a BIG difference! Frankly I haven't made good use of that space yet. But when I slapped what I will loosely call my "aquascape" up, it was super easy with this extra room. I was in wicked hurry, and the extra 6" made a big difference. What I did in minutes would have taken hours and hours and hours in an 18" tank. And the fish seem to like it too!

And needless to say, it looks great in person.

So if I had it all to do over, I'd get the same size. But it would have been nice to know there were so few stands available. That missing piece of information added 6-8 weeks on the time I thought it was going to take to but this thing together.




Defchilde said:


> I was under the impression that *Pentair* heater modules and *Ocean Clear filers* all have ¾” connectors. If you used 1” tubing, would it not cause a bottleneck at these points, reducing the flow to what would pass through? I must admit that fluid dynamics was not my best subject in college.


I'm no Mechanical Engineer either. But apparently a short constriction makes only a negligible difference if flow or pressure. I would not have guessed that, but it's true. Go to Reef Central and play around with their PVC pressure/flow rate tool and you'll see what I mean. Or Goggle for a copy of the PVC pressure spreadsheet that drives it. Or pm me for a copy that I customized for my purposed (I can't help at the moment though - am traveling).

Either way, that spreadsheet shows it matters much less than you think. And it's pretty accurate too. It predicted the flow/pressure of my overly complex system within about 15%. Not perfect, but good enough. And I'm sure it would work even better for a less complex set up.


----------



## Defchilde

scolley said:


> That sounds really exciting! But honestly, I don't have a clue what you are talking about! What's an FX5? And where's the chip?:icon_mrgr Really.











Fluval FX5 External Filter 
Recently placed on the market, seems like a nice product.

I like the concept of the backwash feature on the Ocean Clear.


----------



## original kuhli

*Fx5*

Scolley, there's a chip in the FX5 canister that does a few things:

1. Runs a burping procedure at startup to rid the system of any air in the canister. The pump is at the bottom of the FX5 which is I believe what causes this need.

2. Burps the filter every 24 hours to remove any airspace that's built up. I presume this keeps the filter quieter as well.

3. In theory (I've no idea how) the chip monitors load vs flow and doesn't expend excess energy on pushing water through the media faster than is possible given the restriction that increases as the filter loads. 

4. The impeller is uni-directional and has a curved blade design, this means it has to run one direction (I gather the others can turn either way), probably with something in item 3 above the chip figures out if the impeller is turning the right way and can correct itself.

That's the story anyway...the common thought it that the filter doesn't like having things plumbed inline but there's far more people with success than the one or two problems I've seen documented.


----------



## scolley

Sounds like a nice canister!roud: Cool!


----------



## PDX-PLT

scolley said:


> Don't BN's rip up acrylic tanks? I thought they were a no-no in anything but glass.


I didn't know that. I guess they "scrape" the acrylic enough when sucking, that there's the danger of them scratching it?

Fantastic tank, BTW. You've inspired me to start designing an auto-WC system myself.


----------



## scolley

Thanks PDX... !

*NEWS*

BYE BYE GSA
My GDA problem has pretty much diminished. It's not gone, but it's way, way easy to control. Now I'm down to 15 minutes a week cleaning the glass. And in that cleaning, I really can't see any algae except limited small spots. I'm not really sure what to attribute that to, but four important things have changed.

1) My nymphaea have exploded, and possibly 60% of the water surface is covered with leaves. LOTS of shade now... that was always my intention BTW. I wanted shade for the anubias.

2) I started iron dosing (ADA ECA).

3) I switched from dosing ADA Green Brighty Step One, to Step Two. At that same time I stopped dosing ECA, as Step Two has iron in it.

4) I've started dosing Ca and Mg. It's a PITA because I don't have enough auto dosers to automate it. But dosing once each weekend seems OK.​


FISH DEATH  
"Football", one of my smallest, and certainly the least well formed discus, got a serious swelling of the abdomen. It looked for all the world like bloat. That fish was a vicious eater - most greedy of the bunch. But the swelling got worse over a few days, and no amount of the traditional Epsom Salt remedy seemed to help. And unfortunately I had to go on a business trip, so long term care in a hospital tank was out of the question. So I felt I needed to euthanize the fish. To leave it in the tank was to risk all the fish. To isolate it and then leave for a week was to risk unsupervised suffering as a condition got worse. Bummer.



LOTUS BLOOMING!
One of my nymphaea began to put up a really thick stalk the other day. This is what popped out!

I know for you big time experienced planted tank folks out there, this is no big deal. But for me... WOW! I just love it. So beautiful. So exotic. And SUCH a lovely little surprise in our family room.


So, more pics later. Time for some aquascaping first though!


----------



## dufus

Oooo! lilly bloom.
Is that Nymphaea micrantha or zenkeri?
What time did it bloom? like day or nightish?

sorry, i'm a pond guy, so this is always fun to see the relations of ponds and aquariums.


----------



## scolley

dufus said:


> Oooo! lilly bloom.
> Is that Nymphaea micrantha or zenkeri?
> What time did it bloom? like day or nightish?
> 
> sorry, i'm a pond guy, so this is always fun to see the relations of ponds and aquariums.


N. zenkeri! And it blooms in the evenings, closes up in the day. Too cool! :icon_bigg 

And I'm sure you already know - as a pond guy - this sucker is BIG! I'm talking a out 6" in diameter when it blooms. Really NEAT for something in a fish tank.

And don't apologize dufus. Ponds are COOL!


----------



## dufus

Sweet, i have a zenk in my pond, it hasn't bloomed yet, but now thanks to you, i know it's a night bloomer.

Imagine a lilly like it, only with pads 6ft across and with thorns on the stems.
Victoria amazonica lilly! muhuhahaha!

lol


----------



## scolley

dufus said:


> Sweet, i have a zenk in my pond, it hasn't bloomed yet, but now thanks to you, i know it's a night bloomer.
> 
> Imagine a lilly like it, only with pads 6ft across and with thorns on the stems.
> Victoria amazonica lilly! muhuhahaha!
> 
> lol


That's a pretty scary lilly pad. Think I've seen pic of those, with little kids sitting on them.

I've had hymphaea before, but they never bloomed. What causes them to bloom?

Also, I need to go tracing stems back to bulbs, but I've got three kind of leaves. I think they are all found on each plant. I've got triangular multi-colored submerged leaves, triangular multicolored floating, and a large number of round green leaves with spikey edges. What's that all about?


----------



## Gatekeeper

That flower is absolutly gorgeous! Outstanding job Scolley and a wonderful setup you have going there. i have been following this for some time and am totally impressed by the time and effort you have put in. well deserved success.

Sorry about "Football"...mother nature can be so cruel sometimes.

I wanted to comment on the 3/4" and 1" pipe selection for you. People keep using the word flow and I think they are meaning velocity. Flow is constant from a pump (unless you throttle it and ignoring some of the losses from the fittings and friction losses). Quite simply, the Continuity equation is applicable here (its really not, but use if for the sake of argument and simplicity of understanding)...Flow = Velocity x Cross Sectional Area (Q = VA)

Velocity is proportional to Area. Reduce area, velocity goes up. So what people are conceiving as flow...is really velocity. (You can also utilize Volume / Time which are also inversely proportional Q = Volume / Time).

In reality, no engineer would simply use the equation, but for the sake of understanding and simplicity it gives a generic understanding of what increasing or decreasing pipe size can do. But for reality purposes, head loss due to friction should never be discounted. 

As far as changing between different pipe sizes that someone had mentioned earlier, its just another loss that has to be accounted for...expansion and contraction. It would be similar to the theory of how a Venturi works...by reducing the Area and increasing the Velocity. However the Venturi is designed to minimize those losses due to expansion and contraction.

Hope that helps a little.

BTW...I would love to see that spreadsheet you used in designing this thing. Had to be a beauty...(<---i just dorked out didn't I...?)


----------



## dufus

They usualy are very free flowering under good conditions. in the aquarium, trimming the floating pads off makes them stay in a submerged form, and restrain from blooming.

Also, they are very heavy feeders, nitrogen especially, only they take more nutrients from their roots than anything.

the triangular leaves are submerged form leaves, the floating ones are simply submerged leaves that made it to the top. the ovular spikey leaves are the "true" leaves of the plant. leaving them up there will encourage blooming.


----------



## scolley

gmccreedy said:


> People keep using the word flow and I think they are meaning velocity. Flow is constant from a pump (unless you throttle it and ignoring some of the losses from the fittings and friction losses). Quite simply, the Continuity equation is applicable here (its really not, but use if for the sake of argument and simplicity of understanding)...Flow = Velocity x Cross Sectional Area (Q = VA)


Thanks for the kind words. I'm sad about the fish, happy about the blossom.

But as to flow vs. velocity... I said flow, and I think that was appropriate. If I increased my pipe diameter, my velocity may have actually dropped. I don't have the spreadsheet with me, so I can't check. But one thing I know from prior calculations... my flow would have increased. That's the same thing as saying my volume of water moved in a given period of time would have increased. As I understand it, that's "flow".

When I get home I'll PM you with a link to the spreadsheet. But if I forget, please remind me... at my ripe old age my memory ain't what it should be.  




dufus said:


> they are very heavy feeders, nitrogen especially, only they take more nutrients from their roots than anything.


Thanks for the clarification on the nymphaea A&P! I'm amused about the root feeding though. If only because their roots are in sand. Not a spec of soil down there. So if they are getting nutrients in their roots, it's from the nutrients in the water that is soaking into the sand.

I pondered this problem before I got established my plan to use nymphaea to shade the anubias. I definately wanted a sandy bottom - for the discus to pick food bits up from. But I remembered from my childhood, wading in fresh water creeks on the gulf coast, that water lilies grow just fine in water with deep sandy bottoms. So I figured if it worked in nature - no soil but sand - then it would work in my tank. Apparently that was true.


----------



## dufus

Sure, they're probally getting nutrients from the left over mulm the filter leaves behind and from the water column, because you don't have a ton of sand.

In ponds we plant them in 1gallon+ pots with clay heavy top soil. then we feed them once or twice a month with tablets.

they're doing great in there obviously though.


----------



## PDX-PLT

scolley said:


> 2) You can't trust an Eheim Universal pump under pressure.
> I was burned by this before. But I thought I just had a leaky pump. Nope. Eheim Universals will not hold back much pressure in-line at all. I'm not sure where the break point is, but it is much less than 5 PSI. If you put one of these pumps in an application with that kind of pressure, expect it to leak. Or if it waits awhile, and then leaks later... well, I warned you.


What type of pressure source do you mean? Is the pressure from an inlet pipe a feet high filled with water an issue, or is it something else?

I can see if it was under city water pressure that it would be a problem, although I can't see why someone would install it in that circumstance.



> 6) Frequent, tap water fed, water changes, if you live is the chilly north, and if you have Discus, means you are going to have to have MASSIVE water heating capability.


What type of GPM flowing are you using to fill it?



> 7) It is HARD, and expensive to eliminate slip fittings from your stand.


I think you mean "barbed" fittings. These can be either a single barb, like on the Hydor inline heaters, or the common multiple barbs.

"Slip" PVC fittings are welded. Using reasonable care, and both primer and glue, they are a permanent connection that doesn't leak.


----------



## scolley

PDX-PLT said:


> What type of pressure source do you mean? Is the pressure from an inlet pipe a feet high filled with water an issue, or is it something else?


As I stated before, 5 PSI will pop them. Generally in planted tanks we use canister filters with very low pressure lines. Because I'm pushing water through a filter with a pressure pump - not the usual setup, I'm running about 5 PSI. And if you mount an Eheim Universal pump in-line, under that kind of pressure, it's gonna leak. Or at least that's my experience, confirmed twice, with 2 different pumps.



PDX-PLT said:


> What type of GPM flowing are you using to fill it?


GPM is not a measure of pressure, just flow. PSI is, and as before, 5 is enough.




PDX-PLT said:


> I think you mean "barbed" fittings. These can be either a single barb, like on the Hydor inline heaters, or the common multiple barbs.
> 
> "Slip" PVC fittings are welded. Using reasonable care, and both primer and glue, they are a permanent connection that doesn't leak.


You are EXACTLY right! My mistake. PVC slip fittings, if properly sealed are fantastic. Strongly agreed.

Just so that I do not mislead people, I'm going to go back and fix my incorrect language in prior posts. But this post will serve to show that I DID use the wrong term.

Thanks for the correction! And please accept my apologies for any confusion I may have caused.


----------



## Gatekeeper

scolley said:


> GPM is not a measure of pressure, just flow. PSI is, and as before, 5 is enough.


Or...if you want to get crazy .... 11.5 feet of pressure head:wink:


----------



## PDX-PLT

scolley said:


> As I stated before, 5 PSI will pop them. Generally in planted tanks we use canister filters with very low pressure lines. Because I'm pushing water through a filter with a pressure pump - not the usual setup, I'm running about 5 PSI. And if you mount an Eheim Universal pump in-line, under that kind of pressure, it's gonna leak. Or at least that's my experience, confirmed twice, with 2 different pumps.


Hmmm. Now you tell me. 

So you're saying that, if the pump output is not free-flow, but is constricted enough that pressure builds up (in your case, by the canister), the pump will leak. Where? There's a sealing ring in the shroud that surrounds the impeller; is that the leak location?



> GPM is not a measure of pressure, just flow. PSI is, and as before, 5 is enough.


Actually this is a separate question, unrelated to the pump leak question above. I was wondering how many gallons per minute of fresh water you are putting into the tank on the fill cycle, such that you need 900 watts of heating. Do those heaters heat the fresh water directly, before it hits the tank, or are they the same heaters for the whole tank?

The reason I ask is that I'm working on something similar; see this thread.


----------



## scolley

PDX-PLT said:


> So you're saying that, if the pump output is not free-flow, but is constricted enough that pressure builds up (in your case, by the canister), the pump will leak. Where? There's a sealing ring in the shroud that surrounds the impeller; is that the leak location?


No, I'm clearly not explaining myself well...

My application of a universal pump had NOTHING to do with a canister. I had the hobby pump taking water off of a branch of my closed loop, and pumping it away to a drain (when I turned it on a solenoid that allowed water to flow down that branch to the pump.) My closed loop, and subsequently the branch, is somewhat pressurized. All closed loops are actually, but with our typical canister setup that pressure is pretty low.

But in my case I'm using an in-line pressure pump that pumps water through all my filtration. It does not remotely depend on head pressure from the tank as most PT setups do. This creates about 5 psi in my lines. And that 5 psi is felt on the universal pump when I allow water to flow to it (the solenoid again... ). When that happens, universal pumps have a nasty tendency to leak around the big round seal in front. Probably the one you are describing. They can't take the pressure.





PDX-PLT said:


> I was wondering how many gallons per minute of fresh water you are putting into the tank on the fill cycle, such that you need 900 watts of heating. Do those heaters heat the fresh water directly, before it hits the tank, or are they the same heaters for the whole tank?
> 
> The reason I ask is that I'm working on something similar; see this thread.


They are the same heaters as for the whole tank. But my fill line comes into my filtration loop just before the heaters. So it hits the heaters first. But if it doesn't heat it all before it hits the tank, it's not a big deal. The heaters will just heat the cooler tank water.

As to GPH, I'd have to go check at home - I'm away at the moment - but I think it is something like 12 to 15. Not much. But in the winter that water is like 45 degrees going into 85 degree water. Don't underestimate that impact. It matters. A lot.

Also, you have to keep in mind, that full 900 watts is not going to heating up cold water. In the winter that room is in the low 60's at night, so a lot of those watts are going toward keeping the tank warm - even without my adding insult to injury by adding freezing water.

I tested this with my old tank, and I wish I had the results I could share. I'd have to go dig them up... again, I'm not at home at the moment. But as I recall, I estimated that I had a little slack, maybe 100-200 watts. But no more. Of that I am certain. Sorry I don't have hard facts to back that up though.


----------



## PDX-PLT

scolley said:


> But in my case I'm using an in-line pressure pump that pumps water through all my filtration. It does not remotely depend on head pressure from the tank as most PT setups do. This creates about 5 psi in my lines. And that 5 psi is felt on the universal pump when I allow water to flow to it (the solenoid again... ). When that happens, universal pumps have a nasty tendency to leak around the big round seal in front. Probably the one you are describing. They can't take the pressure.


'got it, thanks. I guess when you think about it, that's not suprising. The cover is just a twist-lock connection, so the seal isn't tightened securely like a threaded connection (or even a barbed connection) would be.



> As to GPH, I'd have to go check at home - I'm away at the moment -


'same here; my last post was from the Admiral's Club in DFW airport. 



> but I think it is something like 12 to 15. Not much. But in the winter that water is like 45 degrees going into 85 degree water. Don't underestimate that impact. It matters. A lot.


So takes an hour to add 15 or so gallons? That's slow, but water is a terrific heat sink, and takes alot to warm up. Did you even think/try of adding a little hot water into the mix on the fill line?


----------



## original kuhli

Hey Scolley, what are you using as a pressure switch for the your water change system? I'm trying to put the finishing touches on my plumbing...


----------



## scolley

PDX-PLT said:


> 'same here; my last post was from the Admiral's Club in DFW airport.


Cool. Wear a silly hat or something so I can recognize you. :hihi: I'm there rather frequently myself.



PDX-PLT said:


> Did you even think/try of adding a little hot water into the mix on the fill line?


No. That's a good idea! But my household plumbing is arranged such that I could get to a cold water supply a lot easier than hot water. It was never a consideration without MAJOR professional help with tank plumbing. But that IS a good idea. Would have saved a HECK of a lot of space in my stand!



original kuhli said:


> Hey Scolley, what are you using as a pressure switch for the your water change system?


It's not a pressure switch per se. It's a solenoid that can hold back a lot of pressure. But that is only 1 direction BTW. There is some degree of pressure differential it can block. But only one way - turn it around and the pressure opens it right up. But that's just a planning/installation issue. Make sure you have it pointed the right way. One way holds back the pressure, the other direction does not. Easy.

This is the solenoid. There are much cheaper out there, as documented by multiple fine members here. But this puppy is solid as a rock. When you give it power, it goes SMACK! There is a LOT of energy behind its opening and closing. IMO you do not have to worry about this thing failing in the wrong position. Not gonna happen, and worth a few extra bucks for peace of mind.


----------



## original kuhli

Thanks, great info. 

I was referring to the sensor that tells the controller that the tank is full and thus to close the solenoid to stop water inflow.


----------



## scolley

original kuhli said:


> I was referring to the sensor that tells the controller that the tank is full and thus to close the solenoid to stop water inflow.


This is the item. Or at least one in that series. My model has been made obsolete. But these are the real deal.

You can pick them up on the web at Digikey. But unless you want to cut a hole iin the bottom of your tank, it won't help. Mine's connected to a bulkhead hole. Here's a pic. Not pretty, but it get's the idea across.










Also, you might want to take a look at this thread. In it I ho into hysteresis in a good bit of detail. That's a problem you are going to have with any decently accurate sensor - ripples in the surface of that water are going to make it flutter on and off rapidly as it approaches a full condition. So I've got the sensor hooked up to my AC III, which has a hysteresis control. It's too long to go into here. Check out the other thread.


----------



## PDX-PLT

scolley said:


> Cool. Wear a silly hat or something so I can recognize you. :hihi: I'm there rather frequently myself.


next time you see someone with a Ron-Jon Surf Shop baseball cap and a graying beard, say hi. 



> No. That's a good idea! But my household plumbing is arranged such that I could get to a cold water supply a lot easier than hot water. It was never a consideration without MAJOR professional help with tank plumbing. But that IS a good idea. Would have saved a HECK of a lot of space in my stand!


In my case, the easiest route for the plumbing is through an existing chase for an HVAC duct, down to the laundry room sink. Since the fill cycles would be done late at night when no one else is using the water, hot/cold mixing should be fairly stable.


----------



## scolley

*AC III web pages*

I thought it might be amusing to some people to see the web controls that come with the Aquacontroller III. 

The AC III has a little web server in it. All you have to do is point your browser to it's address, and you get the little web site. So it has a little status page, where you can see the state of all your equipment - that's below. You can't use long names for stuff, so it may not be obvious that FP1 & FP2 are my peristaltic fert pumps, but most other things are easy to figure out. You can also force something on or off, as I did last night for maintenance, changing LT1 from "Auto" to "Manual On" to keep my lights turned on.










And this little view is the Program Editor page. Obviously this is where you do set the various controls on things, like the temperature and pH controls you see in this shot. It's not exactly intuitive, nor perfectly straightforward in getting something complicated working. But I spent years as a programmer, so I'm sure that helps with setting it up. For someone uncomfortable concepts like task FIFO and execution precedence though, you might have a bit of trouble setting up something beyond the simple controls the AC III ships with.










But this next shot is my favorite. The graphs!

I've got my controller set up to tank a snapshot of my temp and pH every 10 minutes. It's default is every hour. So the timestamps along the bottom of the graph are a bit goofy. It shows times, but not the dates. Pretty crappy info, and I assume that if I was using the default "every hour" sampling, it would do a better job of labeling stuff. But I still know what I'm looking at... each one of those cycles is a 24 hour period.










So if you look at the temp, you can see that during each day my temperature rises, and then falls at night. You can see that the overall temperature in the room has risen the last few days (it has), and that the tank temp KEPT rising yesterday. That's because I came home from a biz trip and did my weekly tank maintenance. But this time I kept the lights on an extra couple of hours.

And the pH is interesting IMO. Every night there is a little repeating set of three spikes. That's because each night I go through three cycle of drain/fill of 10-15 gallons of water. And once I lose 5-7g out of the tank, it starts out-gassing because the returns splash so much. I used to do one big drain/fill, and the pH would swing all the way up to 7.0, out gassing the entire tank. This is easier on my CO2 supply.

That last big pH hump was two fold - took my CO2 tank (empty) out yesterday for replacement, so the pH climbed all day. Though you can still see the little, nightly, 3 peak, spikes as it worked to pull it back down. And that big spike (or dip in the temp graph) is from from a brief power loss Tuesday morning. When the power came on, it did a sample. My probes (temp and pH) are both in my lines, not in the tank. So temp falls to ambient temp when the water is not moving. I've never figured out why the pH climbs. But if I shut off the pumps, the pH in my samples always climb. Don't know why - but I know what that spike is.

Oh well, I thought this might be amusing. It's a fun way to manage a tank.


----------



## bgoodwins

Great data, really helps you get a hold on tank management, and now you can do it remotely . Now if only you could get realtime npk measurements....


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## scolley

*AGA Rejects*

Well, it's time for the annual Aquatic Gardeners Association (AGA) Aquascaping Contest. The entry deadline is tomorrow, and I've put off until the last possible minute taking pics. I delayed because I was considering getting a better camera (I didn't - I'll wait until next year), and I was letting my tank settle in more.

My tank is not really competitively aquascaped. It's got all kinds of flaws. But it looks nice in person. So I'm entering the contest primarily to help the AGA keep the level of competition up. And also to kind of showcase the fact that you CAN have a decent looking planted tank with discus.

These pics are my rejects - the ones I decided to not use for the contest. But frankly, the ones I am using aren't any better - they just aren't these. And just in case anyone notices, I am also posting this same thing over for my buddies at simplydiscus.com to see too.

But I thought I'd share these with you. I'm overdue posting pics, so I hope you enjoy. 





























Cheers!


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## dufus

Still looks great steve.
I'm planning a discus tank myself, and could only hope to make it look as good as yours.

The shallow sand looks pretty good too!


----------



## Riley

Absolutely beautiful discus! I would love to do a tank like that someday....


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## fishscale

One of the NASTIEST discus tanks ever. This tank is sick.


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## eon17

wow thats amazing and very confusing to me!


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## Subotaj

I always really like too see photos from your gorgeous madafaca tank!

Have you tried to plant Nuphar Japonica?
I think it will feet perfect here! (it grows really good in my planted discus tank).


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## sNApple

dear scolley, move to BC, set up tank equipment for me

love snapple


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## styxx

sNApple said:


> dear scolley, move to BC, set up tank equipment for me
> 
> love snapple


lol!!! Now *that's* an invitation!


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## PDX-PLT

Spectacular pics!

Thx for the screen shots, too. 'very interesting.


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## natx

I think the amount of work you've put into this tank would justify upgrading your camera and photo skills! Or maybe finding a buddy who knows how to shoot. I picked up a cheap tripod and it made a world of difference with my photos. Now if only the tank I am snapping photos of was as nice..


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## scolley

*Devin *- Thanks!


*Riley *- Thanks too!




fishscale said:


> One of the NASTIEST discus tanks ever. This tank is sick.


Huh?




eon17 said:


> wow thats amazing and very confusing to me!


Thanks, but I'm interested about it being "confusing". Is that because I'm not using well defined boundries for my plant species, in the Dutch style? Or because the driftwood has become obscured by plants, and you can't see the structure? Or something else... I'd be interested to know.




sNApple said:


> dear scolley, move to BC, set up tank equipment for me
> 
> love snapple


Now THAT is funny. Might there be any money in that??? Or was that a job offer? I'd LOVE to do that for a job!


*PDX-PLT* - Thanks! And I'm glad you liked the screen shots. I kinda thought they would generate more interest. They are WAY cool to me.

Just this week I came back from a week away, and saw my pH was about 0.2 too high. I'd changed the CO2 cylinder last weekend, and thought I set the bubble rate correctly (having a solenoid on a controller means you can have quite a bit of error there). But looking at the pH graph from the little web page I saw that the curve while I was away was my normal curve - 3 little peaks and flat, then 3 little peaks then flat, and repeat... But the pH was 0.2 too low. It didn't take but a second to realize that my problem was just that I wasn't providing enough CO2 - it was going as low as it could go. So that little graph told me what I needed to know - my bubble rate was too low. That's COOL to me!




natx said:


> I think the amount of work you've put into this tank would justify upgrading your camera and photo skills!


Actually I think I can snap a shot. I was just in a super hurry to shoot these, and I did not worry about the conditions and lighting. I had 20 minutes, and shot with my little A70, and used the lights over the tank - w/no flash. That meant having to crank the ASA to 200 (noisy on my camera), set the aperture as open as it would go, and see what came out. Easy to predict really - poor depth of field, grainy (noisy) pictures.

Like I mentioned in my post - this tank is currently not competitive as a well designed aquascape. So I entered to help the contest, and spread the word that you can have a decent planted tank with discus. I decided - in advance - not to get too hung up on picture quality this year. The tank wasn't really competitive anyway. Nice maybe, but not competitive as an aquascape.

But I do hope to have a better camera next year. And if so, I'll spend a little more time on doing it right!


----------



## ScottMorris

scolley said:


> *Devin *- Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Huh?




That means it is the bomb.....in other words....he likes it.


AK


----------



## RoseHawke

fishscale said:


> One of the NASTIEST discus tanks ever. This tank is sick.





scolley said:


> Huh?


Er, I *think *this is a compliment. You know, like "Man, that's really _bad!"_?


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## bgoodwins

Heh you old fogies. Get with the times!


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## styxx

fishscale said:


> One of the NASTIEST discus tanks ever. This tank is sick.


Word. I wish I could have discus they're awesome.


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## scolley

styxx1 said:


> Word...


If I didn't have teenage kids, I'd be clueless on such language. Or maybe as my kids no doubt believe, I'm clueless anyway.

I mean if I'm clueless, I suppose by definition... I'd be the last to know.  

Anyway, thanks for the help on the language. I figured it was something like that!


----------



## Canoe2Can

That's a beautiful tank, Scolley. What Wattage and color temp are the halides?


----------



## scolley

Thanks! Those HQI's are 150 watt (two of them), each at 10,000K.

I made a real deliberate switch from flourescent bulbs to MH for a few reasons:

1) I knew 10,000K lamps (or 13-14,000 if needed) would make the blue in the discus and neons "pop" visually.

2) I wanted the "swimming pool" visual effect in the tank because it's so lovely. Even though I know that it does not show in photos. But in person, it's KILLER.

3) I wanted "movement" in the tank, without creating excess water flow. Too high water flow seems to stimulate algae. But MH lights, with moderately flowing water, creates the whole "swimming pool" effect. And while lovely (see point 2 above), it also creates the illusion of movement, even in a tank that does not actually have a great deal of actual movement (good for discus), or high water flow.

Hope that helps.


----------



## BiscuitSlayer

Scolly - Your tank is insane! I have one question though:

Does the Aquacontroller have the ability to enable a cloaking device for all of the electronics, plumbing, etc. when the wife enters the room? If it does, I might get one to run my next big project as well as another one to let me take a bath in peace (unless I could buy a more robust unit that could handle both).

Seriously though, great job on the project. It truly is a source of inspiration.


----------



## scolley

Thanks BiscuitSlayer! No cloaking required... my wife doesn't want any thing to do with it. That's a good thing. 

*
Anubias leaf shedding*
For a while now my anubias have periodically shed leaves. It's always new, or young leaves - so there's something going on.

For the record, I switched from ADA Green Brighty Step 2 to Tropica Master Grow this week. I'm dealing with that topic in this thread. But this problem has been going on for months. A couple of days ago though, I lost 4 leaves in 1 day. Now it's got my attention.

I've tried to research this, and can't find anything conclusive. My plants otherwise seem fine. NOT explosively growing, but growing. I'm running less than 2wpg, so explosive growth isn't the plan. Just steady growth, and I'm getting that - large handfuls of plant matter being trimmed back and removed every weekend. But I'm concerned about this anubias leaf-drop.
_
Anyone know what this is?_

I'm betting it's a micro deficiency of some form. And I may boost them by 50% to see if that helps. And I'm hoping it's not a magnesium or calcium issue, as those are the two things that I have to dose manually - calcium chloride and magnesium sulfate that is.

Any help or insight into this problem is much appreciated.


----------



## scolley

*Ammonia!*

On a related topic - plant nutrition and water parameters - I found out that I had measurable amounts of ammonia in my water yesterday.

I did a whole slew of water tests yesterday - something I rarely do - and I did an ammonia test. I'm ashamed to say, once I verified that this tank was cycled, I've not done an ammonia test. And I was shocked to find the level was somewhere around 0.7 ppm. :icon_eek: Not dangerous to fish, but far from the 0.0 that I'd like to see to keep algae in check. Maybe that's why I continue to have to scrape the sides of the tank every week.

I did do the test in the morning. So it's possible that that was just ammonia that accumulated overnight, that will get sucked up during the daylight hours. I'll have to test at the end of the day to see.

But if that persists, I'm going to have to reduce my fish load, or increase my plant load - or both.


----------



## dufus

Hmm, you really shouldn't have ammonia problems in an established system.
Do you have enough biological media in there, that's one thing you may consider before taking out fish.

although it seems pretty suspicous to me that both these problems would happen at the same time.
I would investigate for a relation between them, maybe the TMG is lacking in something the ADA wasn't, and the plants are in a small shock and not taking up as mouch Ammonia?


----------



## scolley

*Ooops!*

Thanks Devin. But I need to correct that last post. It was not 0.7ppm ammonia, it was 0.07! Sorry. That was an important decimal!

So, with that in perspective, you can see that I don't have a BAD problem. It's just that I do have some measurable ammonia. Not much, but it's there.

With an established tank, an Eheim Pro II and an Aquaclear filter, I should have an abundance of biological filtration. I think it's just a matter of fish load vs. plant load, with water changes that could be more frequent. Currently I'm an an equivalent of 50% every three days. Yes, many planted discus keepers do more lie 50% every week, but I'm not heavily planted, and I've got 8 adult discus.


As for the annubias, I just cleaned the tank and found more. Almost every one was a newer leaf, with not much GSA (an indicator of good growth rate), no yellowing or distortion, pin holes,... what ever. Healthy leaves, with firm stems EXCEPT for the fact that the base of the stem was soft where it had been connected to the rhizome. And the one exception was a mature leaf that was dark green, and it had separated from the stem.

It's curious.


----------



## dufus

Possibly a disease?
I've never heard of it before, the only time i've had anubias drop leaves is when my african cichlids pull them off.

Seems to me like this plant does best with neglect, surje's anubias were having some yellowing problems a while back, with all his high tech stuff too.


----------



## scolley

dufus said:


> Possibly a disease?


Or Amano shrimp. They are supposed to be responsible for damage to plants when there's not enough algae to eat. I've got algae, but it's GDA on the walls - Amanos don't eat that. And GSA on the anubias leaves - Amanos don't eat that.

But no other algae to speak of. Maybe they're hungry.

And I know ADA recommends dumping a bunch of Amanos into new tanks, but once the algae is under control in a few weeks, pulling them out so they don't damage the plants. This could be my problem.


----------



## dufus

Maybe add a small predator to eat off some of them, then take it out after a week or two.

IME, catching amanos was like catching very intelligent spiders in a rock pile.


----------



## Jens

Is the rhizome soft? Some of my anubias plants disintegrate in a bare bottom tank running with low light. But the leaf stem and rhizome are soft in this case.


----------



## bastalker

Steve....Your tank is lookin bad! Really really bad! It just looks sick! :wink: :biggrin: 

In other words...Awsome job my friend! 

When you comin to this part a town? Love ta have ya over for a beer or two anyways!

tc
Mark


----------



## styxx

scolley said:


> Thanks BiscuitSlayer! No cloaking required... my wife doesn't want any thing to do with it. That's a good thing.
> 
> *
> Anubias leaf shedding*
> For a while now my anubias have periodically shed leaves. It's always new, or young leaves - so there's something going on.
> 
> For the record, I switched from ADA Green Brighty Step 2 to Tropica Master Grow this week. I'm dealing with that topic in this thread. But this problem has been going on for months. A couple of days ago though, I lost 4 leaves in 1 day. Now it's got my attention.
> 
> I've tried to research this, and can't find anything conclusive. My plants otherwise seem fine. NOT explosively growing, but growing. I'm running less than 2wpg, so explosive growth isn't the plan. Just steady growth, and I'm getting that - large handfuls of plant matter being trimmed back and removed every weekend. But I'm concerned about this anubias leaf-drop.
> _
> Anyone know what this is?_
> 
> I'm betting it's a micro deficiency of some form. And I may boost them by 50% to see if that helps. And I'm hoping it's not a magnesium or calcium issue, as those are the two things that I have to dose manually - calcium chloride and magnesium sulfate that is.
> 
> Any help or insight into this problem is much appreciated.


Well I have read your thoughts on this so far and as an ADA devotee I have to say that I usually don't have problems with Anubias except for yellowing which I typically solve with a few drops of ADA ECA (its like super concentrated Iron) and that fixes things quickly. Maybe you could try that and see what happens...imho Anubias have problems with Iron deficiency even in ADA substrate which usually requires an additional source of Iron...just a thought.


----------



## scolley

dufus said:


> Maybe add a small predator to eat off some of them, then take it out after a week or two.


Naaaa. I don't want to kill them. I just want to know if they are attacking my anubias. I'd rather have periodic anubias leaf loss than algae. And while I can't give my amanos all the credit for low algae, I'm sure they are pulling their load!



Jens said:


> Is the rhizome soft? Some of my anubias plants disintegrate in a bare bottom tank running with low light. But the leaf stem and rhizome are soft in this case.


Good question. Thanks. But no. The rhizome, leaf, and stem are ALL rigid. In fact, the spot that breaks is not soft. Hmmmm.......

As I was tying this - specifically the word "breaks" - it got me thinking. Maybe I DON'T have a deficiency! Especially since the spot where they separate is pretty rigid too.... Maybe I just have some big freaking fish, blasting around my tank and knocking off a leaf every now and then!

Hmmm.... the plot thickens. :eek5: 



bastalker said:


> When you comin to this part a town? Love ta have ya over for a beer or two anyways!


Thanks Mark! Two sounds good. Let's make that happen. I'd get a kick out of that! And thanks for the kind words.



styxx said:


> Well I have read your thoughts on this so far and as an ADA devotee I have to say that I usually don't have problems with Anubias except for yellowing which I typically solve with a few drops of ADA ECA (its like super concentrated Iron) and that fixes things quickly. Maybe you could try that and see what happens...imho Anubias have problems with Iron deficiency even in ADA substrate which usually requires an additional source of Iron...just a thought.


Good points. But these are not yellowing. And more important, they are not in ANY substrate, ADA or otherwise. They are on driftwood, getting all their nutrients out of the water column.

And I've got ECA, but I stopped using it once I switched from Green Brighty Step 1 to Step 2. As I understand it the only difference is that Step 2 has Iron, where step 1 does not.

BUT, just because my micros (Step 2) included iron, that doesn't mean they had enough. Granted. But they were showing no signs of iron deficiency. So I'm not sure more iron is my answer. Thanks though.


----------



## shyvpboi

Awesome tank Steve!! I was wondering since you said all of your plants are attached to the driftwood except the swords. How are your lotus planted? are they potted like your swords?


----------



## scolley

shyvpboi said:


> Awesome tank Steve!! I was wondering since you said all of your plants are attached to the driftwood except the swords. How are your lotus planted? are they potted like your swords?


Welcome to PT shyvpboi!

You caught me! I wasn't trying to hide anything though, but your question made me realize that I've said some things incorrectly! I hate that.  

So apologies for not being accurate...

My lotus are the exception to the rule - not in pots, and not on driftwood. I tried nestling them in the sand and they seemed to be THRILLED with it.

I'm not against substrate. But I definitely wanted a heavy sand surface so I could have an area for the discus to nibble from - an bottom that wouldn't harbor food to rot. So sand was the choice. I was ready to put the lotus in pots if I had to. But from my childhood I remember various lotus like plants rooting very well in the sand creeks I played in on the gulf coast, so I decided to give it a try. And as it turns out, they are quite happy in the sand.

Sorry I omitted that little tidbit.:icon_redf


----------



## A Hill

The tank looks great Steve!

But where are all them pictures 

I think loosing a leaf here and there with your fish should be expected, anubis leaves are easy to break off...

-Andrew


----------



## scolley

Fish Newb said:


> But where are all them pictures


Thanks Andrew. Maybe you missed the pics in post #190?

I don't have time for more now... the Anubias have stopped shedding leaves. So since I cranked up the micro's that that was the problem. But BEFORE I cranked up the micros, I did a big lotus trim for the pics in the post 190. Immediately afterward the GSA started REALLY attacking the anubias. So I've got all my leaves, but they are now COVERED in GSA. It's bad.

So I've got to continue to work this problem, and I KNOW... crank up the phosphates. But I've got so little other algae that I'm loath to do that. Instead I'm going to experiment with some more crypts, and see how they like sand. And even maybe tie a few to driftwood - just to see what happens. Because my other crypts are really healthy. But then, they are in pots in AS. But I want to try them out - just to see if they might replace the anubias. That GSA is making me nuts!


----------



## A Hill

I found them before I posted, but like you always say. Your PHOTO journals always become loooong threads full of more words than photos, but who cares it looks great.

Have you left it for a good 2 weeks or anything like that yet?

-Andrew


----------



## shyvpboi

thanks for the great info about the lotus Steve!


----------



## Buck

Man have I been gone a while ! Beautiful tank Scolley... somebody has been busy, that tank has more plumbing then the Mystic Aquarium ! 

Love the Discus, you always did have a soft spot in your heart for them... :icon_bigg


----------



## RoseHawke

Buck said:


> Man have I been gone a while ! Beautiful tank Scolley... somebody has been busy, that tank has more plumbing then the Mystic Aquarium !
> 
> Love the Discus, you always did have a soft spot in your heart for them... :icon_bigg


<thread hi-jack> Buck! Buck! :bounce: :bounce: ! Where have you been!? It's like a voice from my youth . . .  *** </hi-jack> 





*** Not that I ever had any :hihi: . . .


----------



## scolley

Buck said:


> Man have I been gone a while ! Beautiful tank Scolley... somebody has been busy, that tank has more plumbing then the Mystic Aquarium !
> 
> Love the Discus, you always did have a soft spot in your heart for them... :icon_bigg


BUCK! Whoaaaaa! :bounce: 

It's tooo good to hear from you pal! Thanks for the post! Yes, I have been a little busy. Too interesting a hobby to hold still... gotta try new stuff! And as for the mystic aquarium... it might. Those cheaters have the easy path - run a big inflow and outflow to the sound. Simplifies stuff a bit. :hihi: 

So good to hear from you. Thanks for saying hi!

(Cindy - if there ever was a good excuse for a hi-jack, that was IT! :icon_wink )


----------



## TheOtherGeoff

yeah and i must say your AGA pictures look nice and the tank looks great


----------



## bastalker

Buck said:


> Man have I been gone a while ! Beautiful tank Scolley... somebody has been busy, that tank has more plumbing then the Mystic Aquarium !
> 
> Love the Discus, you always did have a soft spot in your heart for them... :icon_bigg


Damn!!!! Look what the cat dragged in!! :icon_mrgr :icon_mrgr 

Buck!! Glad yer back! We need ta get together an slug down a few MGD's!!

Yeah an Steve is schoolin everyone here....roud:


----------



## Curare

Aww man, look what you done!

Scolley, as always you just excel at coming up with the most bodacious setups known to man.

I simply cannot beleive the amount of tekky gear you have hidden under that tank, truely awe inspiring.

But lets be honest, the tank is the size it is so you CAN fit all the gear under it right?

Hehehe.


----------



## dave3007

Wow.  this tank and the plumbing/technology is truly amazing. The scape is beautiful, giving the Discus plenty of space to play. 

Technology and nature has combined to make something really special. 

Dave


----------



## fishscale

What kind of discus do you have in here?


----------



## scolley

Curare said:


> But lets be honest, the tank is the size it is so you CAN fit all the gear under it right?


Thanks pal! As you say the size helps a LOT. If this were a 20g, no way. A 75g, maybe. This is technically a 180 stand, and that stuff ONLY BARELY fits! The BIG problem was the heaters. Because my water is so cold in the winter, and because I don't use pre-warmed, pre-treated water for my w/c's, I have to have a way to heat the water FAST. And that takes 3 300w units, set in horizontally mounted Pentairs. It takes up WAY too much space - almost 1/2 the space in the stand. If I wasn't trying to do that, I could fit all tech in there easy.



dave3007 said:


> Wow.


Thanks Dave.



fishscale said:


> What kind of discus do you have in here?


Five blue turqs and 4 high bodied leopards.


----------



## Curare

scolley said:


> Thanks pal! As you say the size helps a LOT. If this were a 20g, no way. A 75g, maybe. This is technically a 180 stand, and that stuff ONLY BARELY fits! The BIG problem was the heaters. Because my water is so cold in the winter, and because I don't use pre-warmed, pre-treated water for my w/c's, I have to have a way to heat the water FAST. And that takes 3 300w units, set in horizontally mounted Pentairs. It takes up WAY too much space - almost 1/2 the space in the stand. If I wasn't trying to do that, I could fit all tech in there easy.
> 
> Thanks Dave.
> 
> 
> Five blue turqs and 4 high bodied leopards.


Yeah I was thinking about that, even if you went for a smaller heater bank you'd still need room for a holding tank for water, and then some means of pumping it into the tank, it's easily the simplest way to do what you're doing.


You know mate, I think it's time you turned your fine arts to the dark side and did a reef tank.


----------



## tropicalfish

Question: Why three huge Pentair heater modules instead of smaller Hydor heaters?
EDIT: nvm, scrolling through the pages found the reason...


----------



## Buck

Curare said:


> You know mate, I think it's time you turned your fine arts to the dark side and did a reef tank.


Oh my gawd...he said the "*R*eef" word ! I will take a beautifully scaped, planted discus tank such as Steves over a boring ole' slow growing reefer any day of the week ! :icon_mrgr 

I believe your shedding of your anubias is actually natural Steve...I have a variety of which I believe originally came from you that do the same for no apparent reason. They grow they shed, and all over again. Its irritating actually !

*please* dont ask me the actual variety of the plant...they were yours I am 99.9% sure though.


----------



## styxx

237 posts and 5 months later...this thread can now officially be called a book! lol.


----------



## scolley

Curare said:


> You know mate, I think it's time you turned your fine arts to the dark side and did a reef tank.


That thought has occurred to me. But frankly, I haven't mastered this yet. Plumbing I'm good with, but plants are still a problem for me...



tropicalfish said:


> Question: Why three huge Pentair heater modules instead of smaller Hydor heaters?
> EDIT: nvm, scrolling through the pages found the reason...


Which, as you saw, was my having had it with barbed fittings. As much as possible this plumbing is threaded PVC. It's complicated down there, but I don't ever worry about it leaking. :thumbsup: 



Buck said:


> I believe your shedding of your anubias is actually natural Steve...I have a variety of which I believe originally came from you that do the same for no apparent reason. They grow they shed, and all over again. Its irritating actually !


Thanks Buck. And it irritates the heck out of me too! The weird thing is HOW they shed. Every once in a while I get one that has a soft bottom of the stem. But more often than not, they appear cleanly cut at the base (of the separated leaf). I'm wondering if my big a** fish aren't knocking them off. It's not as bad as it was, so I'm assuming some of it was due to my not supplying enough micros. But it IS making me crazy.



styxx said:


> 237 posts and 5 months later...this thread can now officially be called a book! lol.


Understood. Too bad I don't have more nice pics for the book. 



*ALGAE*
I don't have pics though, because I've been busy fighting brutal GDA and GSA. I had it (both) from the start of this tank. But I had it really under control, when I decided to switch micros from ADA Green Brighty Step 1 to Tropica Mastergrow. Doing the frequent water changes for discus, plus the tank being a decent size, had me going through a lot of the ADA stuff. I love it, but I can't afford it when I'm washing so much down the drain so often.

Anyway, the GSA and GDA got worse when I changed. Just when it was going away too. Bummer.

So three weeks ago I decided to change my dosing routine, moving my N & P up from the 8 and 0.8 ppm they are respectively in my tap water. I started daily dosing to bring it up to 14 and 2.0-2.5 respectively. Well, as I expected, the GDA in particular got worse. And just to say I tried, I boosted the P to 3.0 this last week, and the GDA got LOTS worse. The GSA may have improved. It's hard to say. So while this may be an effective way to reduce GSA, I can't take it's boost to my GDA. So I'm going back to my old dosing routine, with low ferts in the water column.

All my levels are great. The plants pearl like MAD. And I mean MASSIVE pearling every day. And most of my test kits are Lamotte now, so I'm pretty comfortable with my readings - I've even got a potassium kit (!), so I know the numbers are good. I just can't get rid of this darn GDA on the tank walls. :frown:

*PS *- before anyone says "it's a life cycle thing with the GDA", I would ask that you please not bring that up unless you can point me to some proof. I've been looking hard for that, and I can't find it. At best all I can find is anecdotal evidence.


----------



## fresh_lynny

Man, Steve...I have been away too. I read your whole thread, and am so glad you got your Son of Kahuna rolling. What a gorgeous tank. Your fish are obviously happy and your Lotus bloom....breathtaking.

Great job! The tank is perfect!


----------



## eon17

cmon lets have some more pics


----------



## styxx

eon17 said:


> cmon lets have some more pics


agreed! I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of progress is being made...large tanks that are well done as this one always tend to inspire me to try new things with my hobbyist skills and expand my own knowledge of aquascaping...


----------



## Curare

scolley said:


> All my levels are great. The plants pearl like MAD. And I mean MASSIVE pearling every day. And most of my test kits are Lamotte now, so I'm pretty comfortable with my readings - I've even got a potassium kit (!), so I know the numbers are good. I just can't get rid of this darn GDA on the tank walls. :frown:
> 
> *PS *- before anyone says "it's a life cycle thing with the GDA", I would ask that you please not bring that up unless you can point me to some proof. I've been looking hard for that, and I can't find it. At best all I can find is anecdotal evidence.


Hmmm, verrry hinteresting.

I think we've all been guilty of upping the P levels when we see GDA, and GSA, but what you're seeing is something that defies common logic.

I'll be very interested to see if you unsnag yourself from the GDA nastiness. I'm sure there's something to learn for all of us if you find what the key is.


----------



## scolley

*lynny *- Thanks! I wish I could say the tank looked as good now.

*eon17 *- coming soon.

*styxx *- Ditto.



Curare said:


> I think we've all been guilty of upping the P levels when we see GDA, and GSA, but what you're seeing is something that defies common logic.
> 
> I'll be very interested to see if you unsnag yourself from the GDA nastiness. I'm sure there's something to learn for all of us if you find what the key is.


I definitely don't want to start a P level - GSA debate here. But FWIW I've been scouring information to see if I could tease the truth out... and I've come to the personal conclusion that since it seems to work for some people - though I have not seen what I would consider proof - there is probably something to it.

But at the same time, since I'm personally convinced that all the numbers are right in this tank, and it's not working - that it is something more complex than simply upping the PO4.


PS - if you read my prior post about having ammonia in my tank, was actually my poor reading of the results. I had two kits giving pretty much the same reading (low, but present ammonia), yet when I tested distilled water, I got identical results. So a zero reading on those kits is not quite the color their color charts indicated.


----------



## scolley

*AGA 2007 Aquascaping pics*

You can see these out in the AGA 2007 Aquascaping contest pages. And I encourage you to go look there at the MANY wonderful entries. These were mine. Not a good aquascape to be sure. Just a planted discus tank really.

And as you look at them, I have to remind you it's not as nice now. The GDA/GSA is killing me. Maybe I'll post some pics of that too. :icon_eek: 

But these are at least pics of the tank at it's best. As usual clicking brings up a bigger pic.




















In the interest of full disclosure, this is another one of my "double posts". Since this is really about both plants and discus, I've also posted over at "Simply".


----------



## styxx

Despite the current challenges you're facing in the unending battle against algae, it is clearly obvious to this author that you possess the requisite skills of a master hobbyist. Discus are notoriously difficult to successfully keep and to combine that ability in a planted tank environment (regardless of its international competitiveness) sufficiently demonstrates to me, the full range of your capabilities in this hobby and I congratulate you. Now get to work on that algae! If I don't have some pics soon of something...anything...I'm sure to have an aneurysm.


----------



## Oqsy

wowzers scolley, i take a few months sabbatical from PT and you grow a perfect tank in the meantime  great work, good to see you're still at it!

Chris


----------



## Hop

Looking good scolley!


----------



## wethead

*Curse You Scolly*

 Spent all morning reading Kahuna and "son of" achived no work today.

:icon_smil Thank you, truly insperational plumbing and dedication to threads. As a new member am in awe of the time and effort placed into your responses and am in awe of powers of cohersion over your better half, mine must be weak as no tank is in my home at this present time but a lot of preperation is slowly coming to fruition "probably a lot more by the look of things,after todays effort."

I to have a soft spot for Discus

Regards 

Rob


----------



## hojimoe

wow must say, i never though of remote dosing and controls of all that....gave me something to consider when I buy a house and set up a monster show tank.... wonderful setup/tank/planting/discus/PLUMBING!!!! 


nice work


----------



## Subotaj

as usual the best planted discus tank on the planet Earth (beside mine  )
:thumbsup:


----------



## khoile

Scolley,

Nice tank!!!

I have a question about your auto topoff/wc. You mentioned that you fed tap water through the carbon filtering and directly to the tank. What's the flow rate for this system? Also without going through the RO process would the water be too hard for discus? or maybe your tap water is already ideal? 
does going through the carbon unit lower KH/Gh? I lived in LA and the water here is HARD! but I was hoping of just simply feeding the water through the carbon unit like you would help a bit.

Again amazing tank and equipments!


*Edit*

Also what size bulkhead is your bottom drill for? I'm getting ready to order my tank and curious to see if 1" bulk head is good enough for 180G? Thanks again.


----------



## scolley

styxx said:


> If I don't have some pics soon of something...anything...I'm sure to have an aneurysm.


Thanks styxx. I would take pics of my algae, but I know my photo rig just can't do it justice. Really. A nice big macro lens would be great about now. But I don't have one.

And I had some WILD alage carpeting my sand that I THOUGHT was BGA - but wasn't. Too green, and maracyn didn't put a dent in it. So I hoovered it all out. But would have made a great pic.



Oqsy said:


> wowzers scolley


Welcome back Chris! Long time, no hear. Thanks for stopping by, and don't be a stranger!



Hop said:


> Looking good scolley!


You too Hop! Everything I just said to Chris is a ditto for you. :icon_wink 



hojimoe said:


> ....gave me something to consider when I buy a house and set up a monster show tank....


Thanks pal. I'm hoping that over the Christmas holidays I'll have time to do some serious plumbing pics. It's long overdue.



Subotaj said:


> as usual the best planted discus tank on the planet Earth (beside mine  )
> :thumbsup:


While I'm not going to let myself think about that one too much... since my head will still just barely fit through the door... that coupld have been the the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me. Really. Thank you very much.



khoile said:


> What's the flow rate for this system? Also without going through the RO process would the water be too hard for discus? or maybe your tap water is already ideal?
> does going through the carbon unit lower KH/Gh?
> *Edit*
> Also what size bulkhead is your bottom drill for? I'm getting ready to order my tank and curious to see if 1" bulk head is good enough for 180G? Thanks again.


I assume you mean the flow rate on the carbon filters. It's not rated, per se. I just slapped two filters in line and push it through as fast as I can. I used to have a 75gpd choke on it to keep the flow predictable, but I took that off. Now it flows in at something around 10-12 gph. It has zero effect on my GH or KH. I've just got good tap water (a real blessing that one!).
As for the bulkheads, I believe I've got 3/4" bulkheads - the 35034 model here at aquaticecosystems. But sure an click the link under the picture on their website for more details. But keep in mind, I've got 3 outflows. So that's 3/4" x 3 flowing out of my tank. Good luck with yours!


----------



## khoile

Steve, 

thanks for the advice. Another question, I remember reading some where that you experience with having the return plumb in from the bottom of the tank. And some how decided against that, could you let me know why not? I'm trying to decide how much "headloss" having the water return from the bottom of a 24" deep tank.

Thanks.


----------



## scolley

I'm afraid that I've got no experience with returns at the bottom of the tank. What I have is worse... an opinion with no experience.

This is my 2nd tank that has holes drilled in the bottom that would easily allow me to have returns in the bottom of the tank. But both times I've plugged those holes up and opted for standard "over the side returns". And in both of these cases, it's when I DID have my outflows through the bottom of the tank. Here are the reason's why:


1) I don't believe that you will get optimal water mixing if your inflows and outflows are both at the top, or bottom, of the tank. IMO one should be at the top, the other at the bottom. Since my outflows are at the bottom of the tank, I've rejected the possibility of in-flows on that same level. But I could have in-flows (returns) that came up from the bottom, and were brought up to the top of the tank by an in-tank tube. But I didn't because...

2) I've pretty much focused a great deal of my contributions to this hobby on the goal of getting equipment OUT of the tank. Internal tubes that to bring water to the top violates that goal.

3) Highly accomplished aquarist's (that might not want to be mentioned here) have confirmed my conclusion in comment #1 above, and have confirmed it as the preferred method of water flow in a planted tank.

4) Standard returns, submerged with slightly upward pointing vents, creates the wonderful ripple effect that you can see in my most recent posts. No blow dryers for pictures for me! My water surface looks like that all the time!


As for head height issues, I'm no engineer, but my understanding is that IF you have your outflows at the bottom of the tank, there is NO difference in head pressure requirements between returns through the bottom of the tank, or over the side at the top.

Hope that helps.:icon_wink


----------



## scolley

*Brief update...*

Just as a brief update, I've been at home a lot lately, and have been up to several things.

1) A major GSA/GDA battle. I've been keeping meticulous notes, and plan on having some INTERESTING observations to share. But I'm not going to drag you through the battles. But I'll tell you about it all after I've got something conclusive to share. But FWIW, it's all controllable with regular maintenance. I just want no algae maintenance AT ALL.

2) I planted this tank in a rush 6 months ago. I had to get fish out of trash cans and into a new tank, so I could leave to 3 weeks in Europe with my lovely wife. So a LOT of compromises were made in the 'scape. Well, I've got a BIT more time at home now, and I'm gonna try a re-scape tomorrow. Hopefully will have something to show in a couple of weeks.

3) I took major, long overdue, pics of the finished plumbing. And you know what? You can't tell a d*mn thing looking at the pics. Or that's my conclusion anyway. The fact is, there is a gosh-awful amount of stuff crammed into that 30 square feet of space under the tank. And you can't see it all from the front. So I've invested WAY too much time, and have almost finished a set of schematic diagrams that I will use to explain everything under the tank. On one hand, it will look like a lot. But on the other hand, it should make it understandable. And since in the six months I've had this up, the "high-tech" plumbing has worked FLAWLESSLY, I'm going to post that in a separate thread. Maybe I'll call it "Insane Plumbing", or "Over the top - under the tank". I dunno. I'm open for suggestions. :tongue: 


Anyway, please expect more (hopefully) interesting stuff soon. And have a Happy New Year!


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Lets see this!!!


----------



## RoseHawke

"Over the top - under the tank" . . . I like that .


----------



## neilfishguy

what size is this tank? I dont see it in your OP


----------



## khoile

Steve,

I've been thinking about the pressure level sensor. Just wanted to ask you one question about it. For the pressure level sensor, it look like you have a dedicated bulkhead just to use it. Do you think it can be use in conjunction with the drain outlet? (So I don't have to drill 1 hole just for it)

Also, photo update?

Thanks.

neilfishguy: I believe the tank is 72x24x24


----------



## scolley

*Cindy *- Thanks. Sounds good to me too.

*neilfishguy *- khoile's right. Sorry, I should put that in my sig. Most people call that a 180, but I made that my exterior dimensions when I spec'd out the tank, and with 3/4" acrylic, that actual water volume is something closer to 167g.


*khoile *- good question. Yes. I do have a dedicated bulkhead for that pressure sensor. It's my understanding that accurate pressure readings can be an illusive thing on moving water. But I could be wrong. Please let me know if I am, because it would be LOT cleaner if I could mount that sensor on one of my outflows. And it would mean less stuff in tank that I've got to hide.

I haven't had the time to finish the diagrams, nor work up the descriptions with pics. It's a lot of work. But I know I set an expectation, so maybe I can give a preview... 

I'm gonna amend this post later, and create a thread on this when I finish documenting things. It's just a lot of work. But this gives you an idea...

Here's the stand.










Here's an example of detail...









And here's an unfinished version (too large!) of one of the diagrams to explain it.









But I don't have ANY of the text to explain it yet. That is the real time sink. Sorry I'm not finished yet. Will get there soon. Hopefully a week or two.


----------



## ikuzo

this is too complex for me 
great work!!!


----------



## scolley

Thanks but maybe not. I should probably mention that this only shows the water flowing out of the tank, but I haven't yet included the returns. No time to finish it yet.

So YES, anyone should get confused looking at this! It only shows water flowing out of the tank... not back in! :icon_eek:


----------



## kzr750r1

This helps a great deal explain how you have put this together. Thanks for spending the time and sharing your build. I'm sure others will benefit from your effort.

I'm reminded of the days before the internet. Felt like walking in the dark compared to these days with so many nice folks willing to share experience.

To you and all on TPT. Thanks!roud:


----------



## khoile

Wow,

Thanks for the detail diagram, this is going to help me immensely when I design my plumbing. 

I'll test pressure sensor mount out when I get the tank and all the equipments. It's still in ordering phase.

As for safety precaution when filling, I thought since you have an extra digital sensor input to your AC3, you could have two small thin wires place near the tank top (it should be almost invisible, and hopefully it won't violate your nothing goes over the tank philosophy). When the water hit it, it will trip and that is your cue to panic . Time to turn on the drain solenoid.

Also, what's the "AC ground probe"?

Khoi


----------



## scolley

kzr750r1 said:


> This helps a great deal explain how you have put this together. Thanks for spending the time and sharing your build. I'm sure others will benefit from your effort.


Thanks Sean. But I really haven't done anything yet. That post was just a "preview" of what I'm trying to put together. Just a starter really, to help you understand why it's taking me so long. It's a PITA. But I hope I'll be finished before too long.




khoile said:


> As for safety precaution when filling, I thought since you have an extra digital sensor input to your AC3, you could have two small thin wires place near the tank top (it should be almost invisible, and hopefully it won't violate your nothing goes over the tank philosophy). When the water hit it, it will trip and that is your cue to panic . Time to turn on the drain solenoid.
> 
> Also, what's the "AC ground probe"?
> 
> Khoi


I love your idea, and have spend a lot of time mulling over that myself in the past. And just to prove it... here's a suggestion for you - one I considered long and hard. Do what you've described, but get one of those "screamer" boxes. It will bring the voltage (from the speaker) up to a usuable level for the AC3. IMO the native voltage in the AC3 just won't be enough I don't think.

But I haven't acted on that personally because I HATE the thought of deliberatly running an electrical current into my tank - no matter how small. But that could be just foolish caution on my part, borne of ignorance. Yet until I know that it's OK, it seemed a good thing to avoid.

And the ground probe is plugged into my home A/C. So any stray voltage is supposed to go to ground. Like from a pair of wires draped into the tank...  or any other form of electrical current that doesn't belong there. Broken heater, broken pH probe, faulty pump. Whatever.


----------



## kzr750r1

scolley said:


> Thanks Sean. But I really haven't done anything yet. That post was just a "preview" of what I'm trying to put together. Just a starter really, to help you understand why it's taking me so long. It's a PITA. But I hope I'll be finished before too long.


Even a preview schematic is better than none... I understand PITA as I have to dorkument many aspects of my implementations for the great un washed at work. It's labor intensive to get it right and make sense. So nice work on the preview and look forward to the full blown final.


----------



## khoile

Steve,

Couple more questions for you .

How's point the return inflows toward the surface help in reducing surface scum? Would you say a surface skimmer would do a better job? or ADA fancy lily pipe?

I'm considering using a very small sump for my big tank, mainly to have the overflow - I hate surface scum. Secondly other sump benefits come as well, did you ever consider using a sump for your tank?

Thanks.
Khoi


----------



## scolley

Thanks Sean!

Khoi - I have zero surface scum the vast majority of the time. I have had incidents - one being my forgetting to turn one of my filters back on - where a scum did form. So I can't say it completely eliminates it. If bad conditions occur, scum still happens. But that's rare. Normally there is none.

But I can't say that's because of pointing the inflows upwards. Maybe I'm just lucky. Or maybe I've got the system in balance. Or maybe the inflows help.

I'm afraid I don't know.

As for the sump question... you better believe I considered sumps! A sump would have eliminated a LOT of plumbing. If I was willing to put overflows in my tank - which I wasn't - IMO a big sump would have made a lot more sense! I looked at ways to create a sump system without overflows, and came to the conclusion that the risks of flooding were just too great.

So as far as I'm concerned, whether or not you use a sump should be determined by whether or not you will tolerate overflows - either over the side or standpipe/Durso variety. If you are OK with that, IMO you should look at those type of sumps REAL hard. Because, because the risk of any other form of sump is too high, and all the plumbing I did for in-line is hard, space consuming, and expensive.

PS - I originally entered this post waiting on a plane. My haste created a lot of spelling/grammatical mistakes, so I've made minor changes.


----------



## Ashok

Fantastic tank and amazing setup.


----------



## ganjero

Steve,
I have a question about you lights, did you change the bulbs that came with it? I have the same lights but I think the 10k bulbs that came with the pendants are too blue.


----------



## khoile

Steve,

Just tell me when you are tire of me asking question, I'll stop asking .

couple more Qs..., this time regarding your pentair heater/UV connection. Are you just using the slip? Did you use anything else to join the modules? Teflon? Cement? Also what heater did you get with the heater module? For horizontal kit, I assume you got the multiple unit version?

I'm getting close to ordering a full pentair setup and this would help me estimate how wide it will be once I hook it all up.

Thanks.
Khoi


----------



## scolley

Ashok said:


> Fantastic tank and amazing setup.


Thanks. Anyone can do it. That's why I post... 



ganjero said:


> Steve,
> I have a question about you lights, did you change the bulbs that came with it? I have the same lights but I think the 10k bulbs that came with the pendants are too blue.


I agree completely. Except for the queation of whether they are "too blue". I've made it pretty clear in prior posts that my pics show the fish as more colorful than they really are.

I've got a number of pics that I want to post pretty soon. And in those pics the fish appear more blue than they appear to the naked eye. I'm not sure what causes that. I am NOT making color changes with Photoshop.

But the fact is, my pics show the fish more blue than they appear in real life. Go figure. But here's the funny part...

I bought those 10K bulbs BECAUSE I wanted the fish to appear VERY blue. While on one hand I don't want to decieve people on what the fish look like, on the other hand, I delberately bought those bulbs PRECIESLY because I want the fish to appear blue!





khoile said:


> Steve,
> 
> Just tell me when you are tire of me asking question, I'll stop asking .
> 
> couple more Qs..., this time regarding your pentair heater/UV connection. Are you just using the slip? Did you use anything else to join the modules? Teflon? Cement? Also what heater did you get with the heater module? For horizontal kit, I assume you got the multiple unit version?
> 
> I'm getting close to ordering a full pentair setup and this would help me estimate how wide it will be once I hook it all up.
> 
> Thanks.
> Khoi


Khoi - Please PM me with detail technical questions. I'm happy to help. That said...

Good question, but not sure I can answer this to yor satisfaction....

I used the supplied slip connections. And as for the horisontal mounting kits, I think I bought one. It allowed me to put two tubes horizontally, floor mounted, with two more mounted on top of those.

I used PVC glue to adhere the slip mounts to the filters, and connected the filters with teflon wrapped threadded close nipples. If that does not make sense, please look this up on the Internet. i'm not the guy to provide rudemtaru intructions on using PVC.

It's also worth noting, as seen in my rudemtary diagram... i made copious use of PVC unions. If you can do the same, it will make a huge difference as you perpare for maintenance down the road.


----------



## scolley

Wow! What a horrible post that last one was! :icon_eek: I was on the couch, with my laptop, and fell asleep with it in my hands! :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: 

I can't believe I got a post off at all. So let me try to improve that last explanation. Shouldn't be hard... :redface: 

OK, the pentair are horizontally mounted. I used the pentair horizontal kit, don't know if it was one or two. But I can count, and here's what's holding them up:
1) four floor "saddle" type braces, two for each of the two lower pentairs, holding them off the floor.
2) three double "saddle" type braces - or spacers - holding them off the two lower pentairs. That's two under one pentair, and only one under the other.

The floor braces are bolted to the stand floor. And the four pentairs are bolted to a single 3/4" board, approx. 18"x18", for stability.

You would think that I would have four of the double saddle supports (spacers) between the upper and lower pairs of pentairs. But only three came with the kit. Or I lost one. Either way it doesn't matter, because of how they are plumbed. The plumbing itself provides support on the bottom (or rather normally bottom when vertically mounted) end of one of the top ones. I should explain.

They are plumbed in series, like a "U" laying on it's side. So looking in the stand, water comes in the front bottom heater, then moves straight to the back bottom heater. From there it goes up to the top back heater, and from there to the front top UV unit, and then out. So water comes in on the front of the stand at the bottom, and out toward the front of the stand at the top. It's the plumbing between the two back heaters that negate the need for that missing double saddle spacer.

Each of the pentairs has the threaded 3/4" FTP fittings attached. Those threadded fittings are actually part of a slip fitting that has to be glued in to the pentairs. So while I DO have the fittings permanently glued in, becuase what is glued in is the threadded fitting, I can unscrew anything attached to the unit.

The two top units are directly attached, as are the bottom two units. Each of those two pairs are attached with a 3/4" MTP threaded close nipple. The water flowing from the back bottom unit to the back top unit is all 3/4" PCV - two elbows with a PVC "union" in between. The union can obviously be unscrewed, thus separating the top and bottom pairs, if needed.

The water coming in the front bottom unit, and out the front top unit is through 3/4" threaded PVC elbows. Again, I have unions on each of those two elbows, so the inflow and outflow plumbing can be simply unscrewed if needed.

As with all of my threaded PVC, I used the best quality teflon tape I could find. Two wraps thick, no more, no less. That must work because I've got approx. 175 threaded PVC connections, ( I just counted) and it does not leak a drop. Never has.

The heaters themselves, no idea. I remember they were cheap, 300 watt, and were the standard 1" in diameter. And they had to be smooth sided - so no ridges like on the sides of "Stealth" heaters. 

Width was indeed a serious consideration when mounting these. When you include the plumbing (no choice) front to back the whole thing is 18" to 19" deep. And because they are screwed together, they had to attached outside the stand, and then put in. I actually plumbed the vast majority of my stand outside of the stand on the floor of my den, inside a rectangle of tape on the floor. And I water tested it with hoses going into, and out of, a trash can of water.

It was pretty funning really. A whole massive aquarium plumbing scheme, working like a charm, in the middle of the room... without an aquarium or stand in sight. :hihi: For complex threaded plumbing, I'd recommend it. Fixing a leak once you have it in the stand would be just too hard.


----------



## Steve Kelly

Steve,

Now that you've had this amazing tank up and running for several months, are you still liking the Ocean Clear filter?

How often do you have to clean it?

Do you use the 'back flush' option? Is it effective?

Have you had to replace the pleated cartridge yet?

Have you added a second one to replace the Eheim?


I'm going to be installing one of the Nu-Clear types on my 90 in the hopes that I will have continuously polished water once and for all. There's so little discussion about these types of filters I thought it would be nice to hear your feedback from the perspective of using them on a planted tank.


Thanks, Steve


----------



## scolley

Steve - I wish my feedback would validate (or not) the Ocean Clear /Nu Clear type filters. Unfortunately my results are tainted by running it in parallel with the Eheim. But here is what I can say...

First, my water is really clear. All the time. And when I muck it it, it CONTINUES to amaze me how quickly it clears. Like the other day, I put more sand in - about 70 lbs. Even though I rinsed it well, it still turned the tank really cloudy. So I figured that it would take a day or two clear. No way. It was crystal clear less than 3 hours. I can't say how long because I went out to dinner. But when we got back... Wow! I wasn't expecting that! Just another example of how good a job this combo does.

Second, I have used the back flow, twice I think, to flush out the filter. So easy to uses it's a crime. Just screw my python onto the garden hose outlet on the filter, turn a few of my ball valves to reverse the flow, open the valve on the filter, and let her rip! Too easy.

Third, I have not "cleaned" or replaced my pleated filter because the pressure gauge on the filter never really changes. And that's indicator of need. And the tank looks great. So 6-8 months in, and no media change on the Ocean Clear.

Fourth, I have NOT replaced the Eheim with another Ocean Clear/Poseidon combo. And that's a bit troubling to me, and may be for you. Here's why...

I originally put the Eheim in to provide continuity of my biofilter, and to have a fully running one while the Ocean Clear got established. But every time I went to buy another OC/Poseidon combo, I was troubled by the extreme difficulty I had getting the top seal to not leak (weep). It was a massive PITA, and I hope I NEVER have to take that thing off... I'll be backflushing for years.

And back flushing seems to work really well. My problem is that every once in a while I have to put some different media in the filter. Recently I used some Phosban in my algae war - trying to strip the silica from the water. And I have used carbon a time or two for various reasons. And each time, I used the Eheim. Maybe Nu-Clears are easier. I hope so, because that leaking problem is THE only negative things I can say for this filter. But it is significant.

For my particular setup it's also a design problem. I had always intended to have a second combo replacing the Eheim. And I "simplified" my plumbing by having one simple loop, and one complex loop that does all the extra stuff (UV, heat, CO2, ferts, drain/fill). I figured that if the complex loop's pump or filter broke, I could just shut down the simple loop and swap out the broken component. But now I don't have that redundancy. And if my Poseidon or Ocean Clear goes belly up, I'll just have to drop heaters in the tank, forget UV, hand pour ferts, heavily dose Excel, and skip water changes for a few days while a replacement part comes in. Not the redundancy I originally planned. But not the end of the world either.

But it does bother me that I didn't complete my original plan.

Ps - Welcome to PT! And good luck with that 90!


----------



## Steve Kelly

Steve,

Thanks so much for taking the time to answer my questions in such detail.

I had read your comments in an earlier post about the seal issues on the OC lid. That's one of the reasons I decided to try the Nu-Clear on my system. It's seal mechanism appears to make it easier to do maintenance without having to resort to a big hammer. Unlike the OC, the Nu-Clear I'm getting has a hollow core (no foam) to allow me to place things like carbon or Purigen if I need to.

I'm really impressed with how well the back flush setup is working for you. I had the same thought of connecting the Python to the drain valve to quickly clean the filter. 

After several years using an overflow/sump filtration setup on my tank, I'm really looking forward to not hearing gurgling water anymore :icon_bigg 

I have learned so much from reading this thread. Especially liked the in-line mounting of your pH, ground and temp probes. My liquid-tight Heyco fittings are on the way.

Steve


----------



## scolley

Steve Kelly said:


> My liquid-tight Heyco fittings are on the way.


:thumbsup:


----------



## original kuhli

My Heyco fitting isn't working so well for my heater, I'm using an EBO Jaeger 300 watt and I couldn't get it to seal (in fact it became quite eventful as I adjusted it with the pump on...) so I had to resort to Silicone.

There are two types of fittings from Heyco, some with a lot of rubber around whatever you're sealing and some with a sort of fin like closure that kind of accordians around whatever is in it. 

If you can find one with more rubber I'd suggest going with that one. Scolley, did you have any issues? My CO2, heater and pH all sealed perfect with the Heyco's.


----------



## scolley

Some where I have a thread that discusses this stuff. Too lazy to look it up, but it shows the ones I'm using.

I've seen both of the kind you are referring to. I've had some trouble with one of the two types. Sorry I can't remeber which one. But I know that it is wicked easy to fix. If you can find it, there is this black rubber pipe tape. Looks just like electricians tape with a thin strip of clear plastic on one side. It sticks to itself so well, that without that plastic backing, it would never be able to be unwrapped from the roll. It's used to fix leaks in pipes, so maybe you find it where you find plumbing supplies.

Anyway, just one or two wraps of that stuff around ANYTHING, and if it will still fit in a Heyco liquid tight fitting, it will lock down dry as a bone. Does not matter which type you have, which is why I'd kinda forgotten about that. Sorry.

As I recall (could definitely be wrong) the ones with the accordion fins work better though.


----------



## original kuhli

Hmm, I'm doing better with the solid rubber ones (no leaks) and the only accordian is leaking. I'd been wondering if even electicians tape would be soft enough to fill any gaps..the plumbing tape you're talking about sounds like the real trick though!

Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## Steve Kelly

scolley said:


> Steve - I wish my feedback would validate (or not) the Ocean Clear /Nu Clear type filters. Unfortunately my results are tainted by running it in parallel with the Eheim. But here is what I can say...
> 
> I have used the back flow, twice I think, to flush out the filter. So easy to uses it's a crime. Just screw my python onto the garden hose outlet on the filter, turn a few of my ball valves to reverse the flow, open the valve on the filter, and let her rip! Too easy.
> 
> Third, I have not "cleaned" or replaced my pleated filter because the pressure gauge on the filter never really changes. And that's indicator of need. And the tank looks great. So 6-8 months in, and no media change on the Ocean Clear.


Update --

I received my Nu-Clear model 533 filter yesterday. When you open the 'Drain' valve on Nu-Clear the water comes from the central core of the filter NOT the area around the outer pleated surface. This means that adding a couple more ball valves and reversing the flow from the pump will not 'back flush' the unit by forcing water from the center core through the pleats and then out the drain. One would have to force water in the 'Out' port then have a drain/hose connection on the 'In' side of the filter to properly back flush the Nu-Clear 533.


So the question is:

Does the Ocen Clear's drain port really draw it's water from the outer pleated surface area?


----------



## plantbrain

That's a lot of equipment under the tank.

Makes some reef folks look simple.

I like equipment reduced and simple.
However, you have a different goal there.

With more stuff, comes more stuff to go wrong and more dependecy, and failure since you are not doing as much work and relying of the equipment.

However, we often fed our fish daily......or severla time, this can be automated but many of us like that part and do not like to automate it it too much, bad for live foods as well.

So I can dose/etc easy enough.
I think you might find the in line use of a needle wheel CO2 of interest.

I have a 180 gal tank that is about to be set up here soon, within about 3 weeks or so.

So I'll take a pic of the equipment, but it's rather Spartan.
Still, nothing on the sides or in the tank as far as equipment which is always a nice goal.

Yes, the OC filters are really good at clearing up the tanks.
I'm using a bag sock filter instead of the OC, even though I bought one with an 18W UV and the biocore+ 25sqft pleated filter.

The sock is nice because they are easier to remove and clean and I have lots of them for peanuts, the flow rates are always the same as with sumps, and I can layer the socks inside the other, going from 100 micron to 50, to 10 to 5.

5 will remove any GW.

Bleach them to clean good and rinse.
Same with the pleated OC 25 or 40 sqft cartiages.

The needle wheel method loose less flow and requires no added pressure, so it works well for any size system. Really atomizes the CO2 like venturis. they can be done for in line or sump applications or in tank set ups too.

Cheap too.

One thing about mechanical: make it easy to clean them often.
You cannot avoid that mainteance.
You can avoid flow losses, more labor etc.
Bag filters are nice because they fill up as they clog and over flow into a sump. They are also cheap.

UV's, etc, well, I really do not need those except on rare occasions and then only for a few days tops, so a hang on I use for such issues.
Dosing pumps, well, never been fond of them, have added them, have had clients mess with them, but they have some issue at some point.
Same deal with pH controllers and what not.

Automation has it's prices.

I think going the semi automated route allows us to monitor things really well, but reduces labor by a huge factor.

Turn a valve, drain the tank, turn another, fill the tank. 
Swap a bag filter out, add a new in.
I like to work on the tank and prune and garden when the tank is 1/2 full.

Nice job on getting all that stuff underneath the tank, I just worry that over teching things is a bit Faustian.........you build your own tomb of undoing.

I try to not go down that path
But you have to learn it on your own:thumbsup: 
And I have

Hope it goes well Scolley.

Tom Barr


----------



## Oqsy

scolley: stopping in to say hi, great tech shots and schematics... you might be the king of overthink.  that being said, for someone who travels, there's most likely no other way to keep things healthy and happy... 

tom: what is this needle wheel you speak of? i'm looking for a method of inline CO2 atomization for my tank that's plumbed to an external canister and currently fed CO2 through a "Rex Reactor".


----------



## neilfishguy

Pictures!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## JFalcon

Steve Kelly said:


> So the question is:
> 
> Does the Ocen Clear's drain port really draw it's water from the outer pleated surface area?


That's a good question that I'd like the answer to as well. The only Ocean Clear model that actually advertises back flush capability is the 354 polybead which uses the port at the base of the filter as its inlet. All other OC models use the port at the top.

In my mind, that seems consistent with the drain on OCs also being connected to the "core..."

Unrelated question: Steve (Colley), what size/model Mazzei are you using? I don't recall seeing that, but might easily have missed it.

Cheers.


----------



## Jeff5614

Oqsy said:


> scolley: stopping in to say hi, great tech shots and schematics... you might be the king of overthink.  that being said, for someone who travels, there's most likely no other way to keep things healthy and happy...
> 
> tom: what is this needle wheel you speak of? i'm looking for a method of inline CO2 atomization for my tank that's plumbed to an external canister and currently fed CO2 through a "Rex Reactor".



Ogsy, try this link:

http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquat...od-co2-diffusion-needle-wheel-powerheads.html


----------



## scolley

*Bad Karma*



scolley said:


> ...since in the six months I've had this up, the "high-tech" plumbing has worked FLAWLESSLY, I'm going to...


I shoulda' never said that. That little vain boast seems to have hit me with some bad karma. At least there is justice in the world, even if it's hurting me... :icon_frow 

Since I said that, three things have gone wrong.

1) As the above posts indicate, apparently I've been back flushing incorrectly. While that does mean that I'm getting extraordinary life out of my Ocean Clearly, it also means I have some plumbing changes to make. Anyone know where to get a female PVC garden hose adapter to fit 3/4" FTP PVC?

2) As I was working out the schematics of my plumbing, I discovered a design flaw. Which, of course, demonstrates that I should have done the schematics first! Shame on me. Bad planning. Anyway, I've got to replace a length of plumbing with a similar piece that includes a union in the middle. Gonna be a PITA.

3) New Year's Eve - at about 10 minutes until midnight (!) - my tank overflowed!!! And it did it again about a week later! Luckily I have the fill process on a tight timer, so it was limited, half a gallon maybe. But it validated the need for redundant systems, and confirmed that my stand design would not encounter electrical problems in an overflow. But the little pressure sensor was clearly getting a little flaky on me. After testing I've concluded that it's "repeatability" has dropped in accuracy. Where its switch point used to vary within small fractions of an inch, now it's varying up to a couple of inches. Unacceptable.​
I spent a while digging into the problem with World Magnetics management, who have - thankfully - taken an interest in my use of their switch. So they sent me some replacements that were factory set to my exact depth needs, along with some tweaks to make them potentially more sensitive.

Hopefully bad luck really does come in threes, as it's gonna take some time to fix all this.


*JFalcon *- I'm not sure anymore on that Mazzei, but on my invoice from RyanHerco it says "6030.030 LQd UNJ 3/4" MT BLK GRPP MODEL 0584". Hope that helps. Keep in mind that I was getting one to accommodate the 5+ PSI and 350 GPH in that part of my plumbing. Your needs may be different.




plantbrain said:


> I just worry that over teching things is a bit Faustian.........you build your own tomb of undoing.


That's pretty funny Tom. :hihi: Hard to disagree. Time will tell if that is true for me. But here's the facts about this setup:

1) It's a planted discus tank that provides conditions suitable enough that I have multiple pairs of frequent spawners. They are - by all appearances - healthy, happy fish.

2) While the plants required trimming, algae removal, etc., the mechanics of the tank takes very little maintenance.

3) I can leave for long periods of time (three weeks when the tank was less than a month old), a necessity for me, and the tank will run itself. I just need someone to toss in food. Which can also be automated, but for reasons already stated, I choose not to.

4) I got everything in the stand, no stuff in closets or basements. I didn't have either available.

5) It works. Sure, I did have the water overflow as mentioned above. But redundant systems kept that from being a catastrophe.​
So time will be the judge I guess. From where I sit, I'm convinced that this met my needs. And BTW - thanks for all the good advice while I was dreaming this up. roud:


Thanks for saying "hi" Oqsy!


----------



## original kuhli

Scolley, Home Depot has the brass 3/4 thread to garden hose thread adapters in the section that has the quick fittings(like on RO systems), brass compression fittings and smaller brass fittings and bushings in general. Pretty easy to find once you're in the right section.


----------



## scolley

original kuhli said:


> Scolley, Home Depot has the brass 3/4 thread to garden hose thread adapters in the section that has the quick fittings(like on RO systems), brass compression fittings and smaller brass fittings and bushings in general. Pretty easy to find once you're in the right section.


Thanks! Will go check that out. I'd prefer PVC if I can get it, but I will check out the brass if I can't find 'em. Thanks for letting me know!


----------



## kzr750r1

Nice to see a company paying attention to a hobbyist use of their product. Plus helping to compensate for design flaws and learn together. That is what progress is all about. Love it!.

Although I agree with Toms KISS rules. It's always nice when a big plan comes together with the goals you have set... Systems with added complexity will always need a tweak or two. Leaving the system for three weeks without WC and Dosing is about as slick as it gets IMO.

Everyone enjoys feeding fish. That's the fun part and the easy task to hand off to others you trust.

Keep up the good fight Steve.


----------



## JFalcon

scolley said:


> I'm not sure anymore on that Mazzei, but on my invoice from RyanHerco it says "6030.030 LQd UNJ 3/4" MT BLK GRPP MODEL 0584". Hope that helps. Keep in mind that I was getting one to accommodate the 5+ PSI and 350 GPH in that part of my plumbing. Your needs may be different.


Thanks. That's a regular 584 injector. I've been doing some research into how to choose/size one of these things for aquarium application and you're one of the few people using one of these with a "real" pump who also logs and reports data with rigor.
Sadly, your answer has thrown me back off the path since my reading of the Mazzei spec sheet says a 584 flows 120 gph at 5 psi inlet. Oh well, back to researching...


Regarding backflushing your OC, if you can add a tee+valve off of the horizontal piece of PVC directly above the OC in your schematic you should be able to use that as the flush drain point rather than the valve on the filter itself.

Cheers.


----------



## khoile

scolley said:


> 3) New Year's Eve - at about 10 minutes until midnight (!) - my tank overflowed!!! And it did it again about a week later! Luckily I have the fill process on a tight timer, so it was limited, half a gallon maybe. But it validated the need for redundant systems, and confirmed that my stand design would not encounter electrical problems in an overflow. But the little pressure sensor was clearly getting a little flaky on me. After testing I've concluded that it's "repeatability" has dropped in accuracy. Where its switch point used to vary within small fractions of an inch, now it's varying up to a couple of inches. Unacceptable.[/INDENT]
> 
> I spent a while digging into the problem with World Magnetics management, who have - thankfully - taken an interest in my use of their switch. So they sent me some replacements that were factory set to my exact depth needs, along with some tweaks to make them potentially more sensitive.


Ohh this isn't very good. I plan to use the same sensor for my setup. Maybe I should reconsider? Did World Magnetics mention anything about recalling the sensor? or do you know if I could purchased one from them directly and have the depth set for my tank also?

Thanks for all the information Steve, it has been very helpful.
Khoi


----------



## scolley

kzr750r1 said:


> Although I agree with Toms KISS rules. It's always nice when a big plan comes together with the goals you have set... Systems with added complexity will always need a tweak or two. Leaving the system for three weeks without WC and Dosing is about as slick as it gets IMO.


I'm a BIG believer in KISS. I do it whenever I can. But only when it can satisfy all of my objectives. If not, you have to get a little more complicated. That's why we have aircraft carriers and nuclear power plants - among other things - and they seem to work. They just require a little more careful planning. :icon_wink 




JFalcon said:


> Regarding backflushing your OC, if you can add a tee+valve off of the horizontal piece of PVC directly above the OC in your schematic you should be able to use that as the flush drain point rather than the valve on the filter itself.


Understood. Thanks. That's exactly what I plan to do. Since my plumbing is so rigid, it's gonna be a bit of a PITA. But because I went excessively anal on the inclusion of unions, at least I CAN do it without trashing half of my plumbing. That's the whole reason for the "excess" use of unions. It allows me to easily disconnect stuff and make changes as needed. This will be the first time that additional expense and time of all the unions has really paid off.

Thanks for the help!




JFalcon said:


> That's a regular 584 injector... Sadly, your answer has thrown me back off the path since my reading of the Mazzei spec sheet says a 584 flows 120 gph at 5 psi inlet. Oh well, back to researching...


I dunno. It is probably just right. Keep in mind my PSI is 5+. The "+" comes in when my filter needs cleaning and pressure goes up. And the Mazzei does not work optimally at LESS than 5. So I'm set on the pressure. And as for the flow, I believe that 120 gph is the optimal flow. Well, that's why I have the bypass that you can see in the early pics in this thread. I use a ball valve to divert JUST enough of my normally 350 gph flow to the Mazzei so that it is working. It is WICKED easy to adjust. Just divert flow to the Mazzei until you see bubbles coming out of the inflows, and then slowing reduce the flow to the Mazzei until the bubbles dissapear. Bingo! All set! And the cool thing is... the overall flow (diverted to Mazzei plus straight through) is STILL about 350 GPH. Those Mazzei's are AMAZING in that if set correctly they DO NOT choke down your water flow. Too cool IMO!




khoile said:


> Maybe I should reconsider? Did World Magnetics mention anything about recalling the sensor? or do you know if I could purchased one from them directly and have the depth set for my tank also?


They were very concerned about this, and wanted me to send in my sensor so they could determine what was wrong. Of course I said "No way Jose! Not until I have a replacement sensor up and working. Those puppies are IMPORTANT to my system."

So in return for my promise to send the sensor back, they made me a small batch (5) of hopefully slightly more accurate senors. I did have to pay a minimal charge, but for something so important, it was pretty small. If you want one PM me. I'd be happy to sell you one at cost+shipping.

Anyway, one major possible factor is that I had the sensor mounted with the pressure inlet facing upwards. That allows the possibility of sand, detritus, etc. to fall down the water tube and rest on the sensor. So I'm mounting my next one with that tube facing downward. That means the flexible tubing actually goes down and then back up to the sensor. So what is measured is the height of the water from the water surface to the bottom point of the U-shaped tubing.

I got the replacement sensors in this week, mounted the replacement, and have done one W/C so far. While that is only one test - it takes dozens to be really comfortable - the water level returned to within 1/10th of an inch of where it started! If it can do that every time I'll be THRILLED.

As for setting it for the depth of your tank... first, it's not the tank depth. It's the depth from water surface to sensor - lot's deeper than your tank. Next, their setting was off about 3" by my measure. So no great value in that. But it was not a problem because the model I'm using - PSF102 - has a screw type level adjustment "trim" feature. So I just whipped out the tiny screwdriver and set it correctly. That does require some form of continuity tester though (or multimeter) to detect when it switches.


----------



## RoseHawke

scolley said:


> Thanks! Will go check that out. I'd prefer PVC if I can get it, but I will check out the brass if I can't find 'em. Thanks for letting me know!


Steve, I've looked at a _lot_ of plumbing fittings over the years, and I don't think I've ever seen such a thing in PVC. You may have to settle for the brass. If there is such a thing, you'd probably have to go to an actual plumbing supply house to get it.


----------



## scolley

Thanks Cindy. I'm sure I don't have the plumbing background you do. From what I gather, you are quite the "handyman". I just like an excuse to buy a new tool... my hearts nor really in it.

Anyway, when I was building this tank I would swear I saw such an animal in my wanderings. And I built a drain into the tank plumbing. But when it came to buying a PFV hose fitting to connect to my 3/4" pipe at the drain spot, I came up empty. So right now that drain is just an uncapped open bit of 3/4" FTP PVC. It needs the hose fitting, as I clearly need it for the new backflow spot too. I guess if it really doesn't exist, I'll have to resort to a couple of brass pieces. Not the end of the world.

Thanks.


----------



## gsd78

Steve,

I think this page has the pvc garden hose adaptor you need: http://www.flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?product=PVC-GardenHose-Female.


----------



## scolley

Whoa! That's it! And even more important... I messed up. I said I wanted a female garden hose adapter. I was wrong - I wanted a male. But that's OK, 'cuz your link has those too gsd78! Thanks! Order placed...


----------



## RoseHawke

scolley said:


> Whoa! That's it! And even more important... I messed up. I said I wanted a female garden hose adapter. I was wrong - I wanted a male. But that's OK, 'cuz your link has those too gsd78! Thanks! Order placed...


Good thing, 'cause after I posted that I _did _remember running across a mention of the female fittings on some site or other with the admonition that they didn't recommend them because they could be prone to breakage. Something to do with the stresses on the PVC I s'pose. The male fittings apparently don't have that issue. I do know that I had the female fitting on a gardening water timer to break on me after way less than one season. Not a good thing to have a broken fitting on a water timer when you're under watering restrictions .

Good job, gsd78, you did a lot better than I did!


----------



## khoile

Steve,

Thanks for the sensor. I'm sure everyone agree, we need a photo update .

Khoi.


----------



## scolley

*Rescape (sort of)*

I rescaped the tank over the Christmas holidays. But I'm afraid that it's gonna look a LOT like the old 'scape. Sorry. It actually took 10-15 hours, but you'd never know to look at it IMO. I wanted to accomplish a few things:

1) Keep the quantity of plants about the same, but lighten up the look of the tank, making it brighter, and hopefully the fish would follow in their own coloration. That worked. They are lighter and more colorful now.
2) Lose the anubias. I've had it with the GSA, so I ripped most of it out.
3) Shift the Jungle vals off to the right, and bring in 2 big Ozelot swords to bring in more color. And provide better balance to the center of the tank.
4) Bring in more red Cryptocoryne wendtii, and red Echinodorus ‘Rubin’, also bring in more color.
5) Lose the lotus, as the were playing heck with my sand. Using sand as a substrate for it to grow in just wasn't working.
6) Get EVERYTHING in pots.
7) Add another 70 lbs. sand to cover the pots.
8) Expose more driftwood.
9) Open up the center a bit more.

You can't tell, but I took out about 1/2 of my driftwood, making it possible to push the plants further back, making more room for the fish, and fewer places to hide. So now they are all out, all the time.

You can see that it still has the open area on the left - to attract fish to that side of the tank (it does), but the area is more open now. And the cluster of crypts on the left tries to hide my filter sponge that protects my water pressure sensor from snails and such - see if you can spot it. It's big, but it blends in well.

I'm trying to achieve a flow from a high left to a low right, but it's going to take some grow in to get it to look right.

And this new scape exposes one of my inflows. I'm sure you'll see it. But since it's black on a black background, I'm not too troubled by it. It's not too noticeable IMO.











































This was taken a couple of weeks ago. It looks different now. The big Ozelot swords look worse, as they are shedding their terrestrial leaves and growing aquatic ones. But the crypts are looking a good deal better IMO, along with the red ruben swords, which took a beating in the planting process. I'll take more pics once everything grows in.


----------



## plantbrain

I opted to not use the sump and over flow, at least not right now.
So I have a fully pressured loop and 2 Ocean clear canisters run in series, I suppose I could run them in parallel.

One pump then split to two rather than one after the other =>series.
Then one loop for venturi/actually I'll have both a mazzei and a needle wheel using a Mag drive 3 pump. I can play around and evaluate better this way.

One loop(mazzei) will be on one side, the other will have a suction needle wheel loop.

Then a heater for the Mag drive mod impeller side and then back to the tank.

Fairly easy.

For light, I want to leave for a week or two, I raise the sucker up 12" and turn just the PC's on. I can always put a gravity fed container up, or pre mixed stuff for a helper to add.

I like OC filters, they are much easier to clean and deal with than the Ehiem or Fluval large canisters. I do not have to remove much, just the insides or backflush.

I just keep an extra set of media/cartiages handy so I can swap and then bleach them or replace etc.

I did not like the look in this set up of the over flow and I am doing larger water changes weekly anyway. This way everything in every tank except one has it all self contained.

I like labor saving stuff, however, I am not going to spend 1$ to save a dime there either. Water changers?
Heck yes!
Backwashing filters?
Yes!

Auto feeding fish and dosing?
Not really.

It's the part I like to watch.

Gardening?
I like that as well, as long as I can get in/out easy.

I think you can always improve your plumbing scheme, however, your own thoughts and desires change as you progress on any one tank.
So there really is no one perfect scheme.

So you can engineering redundancy into your set up, so water on the floor never happens.

Having back ups for critical parts of your system is wise.
The design and stuff can get away from you though.

Even reef folks have less complexity in many cases as this tank.
However, they have their tech folks with every bell and whistle also.
But, trying to figure what and where something went wrong and fixing t also becomes a lot more painful.

You might be better off hiring some kid in the area and pay them to do the work while you are gone.

That's what kids are for
I washed tanks at the fish gallery when I was a kid, cleaned parrot poop, etc, then came home and washed dishes, did the laundry and took out the trash. 
I was paid little for it, but I still got some $ to do and have the things I wanted. I never really minded it. Still don't but I get paid better these days.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Tank looks good, looks like a good home for the fish.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## ummyeah

scolly, do you prefer man made strains of discus to wild ones?


----------



## kzr750r1

# 6 makes me think of the plant of little shop of horrors. FEED ME!

Thanks for the pics of the new scape Steve.

Have any of them pared off yet?


----------



## scolley

plantbrain said:


> I opted to not use the sump and over flow, at least not right now.
> So I have a fully pressured loop and 2 Ocean clear canisters run in series, I suppose I could run them in parallel.
> 
> One pump then split to two rather than one after the other =>series.
> Then one loop for venturi/actually I'll have both a mazzei and a needle wheel using a Mag drive 3 pump. I can play around and evaluate better this way.
> 
> One loop(mazzei) will be on one side, the other will have a suction needle wheel loop.
> 
> Then a heater for the Mag drive mod impeller side and then back to the tank.
> 
> Fairly easy.


That sounds like a pretty rational setup Tom. And by splitting the put into two OC's in series, you get to put on some ball valves to shut one side - or the other - down for repair. I like it.

And I'm glad that going sump was not a "no brainer", gotta do for you. Lot's of good things to be said for sumps. Lots of compromises too. I don't see any clear cut choices in that debate.




plantbrain said:


> Tank looks good, looks like a good home for the fish.


Well... not as good for discus as a breath taking 1600g Behemoth! Quite a bit more cramped actually. But it seems to do.

Actually, it looks a LOT more crowded in pics than in person. I guess you just don't see the depth (front to back) and the darn fish tend to crowd up front when I'm in the room. IMO, this 180g is just about as small as I can imagine having 9 full grown discus like this. But they do seem well adjusted and happy.




ummyeah said:


> scolly, do you prefer man made strains of discus to wild ones?


I'm not fond of wilds from an aesthetic perspective. Or maybe that's not fair... I like them, but I don't think they look as dramatic visually to the average "non-fish" person. I want people to go "Wow!" when they see one of my tanks for the first time. Having very colorful fish has that.

But one of these days... I'll be getting myself a nice set of wilds. It's something I'd love to try.




kzr750r1 said:


> # 6 makes me think of the plant of little shop of horrors. FEED ME!
> 
> Thanks for the pics of the new scape Steve.
> 
> Have any of them pared off yet?


In this new setup I've got less pairs than the past - not sure why that is. But I've got two regularly breeding pairs, and one intermittent pair.

And yeah! Those shrimp are some brave little scavengers!


----------



## tacks

:icon_smil Hi Steve the tank looks great, I like the open areas, I am setting up a 150 tall so I am going to try and keep some open areas. Less wood seems to be helping you also. Keep up the good work Ed


----------



## Ukrainetz

:icon_eek: Wow, what a jaw-dropping job! Everything looks terrific and esthetically pleasing! I don't even want to try to interpret your plumbing for now...simply not enough time. I bet you're enriching uranium and simply using the aquarium as a cover up :tongue: LOL. 
Something is telling me when I get my own house, I too will probably be spending top dollar for good equipment. You just can't beat it otherwise! Very very nice!
~Cheers!


----------



## sNApple

you make me want discus


----------



## ikuzo

get more plants Steve. your algae problem will reduce.


----------



## scolley

tacks said:


> :icon_smil Hi Steve the tank looks great, I like the open areas, I am setting up a 150 tall so I am going to try and keep some open areas. Less wood seems to be helping you also. Keep up the good work Ed


Thanks Ed. Good luck with the 150. I'm not sure if the pics show it, but ripping out 1/2 the wood really allowed me to push the plants back, and reduce the hiding places. And the fish seem much less skittish. Something to be learned there... 




Ukrainetz said:


> :icon_eek: Wow, what a jaw-dropping job! Everything looks terrific and esthetically pleasing! I don't even want to try to interpret your plumbing for now...simply not enough time. I bet you're enriching uranium and simply using the aquarium as a cover up :tongue: LOL.
> Something is telling me when I get my own house, I too will probably be spending top dollar for good equipment. You just can't beat it otherwise! Very very nice!
> ~Cheers!


Milford huh? We're not far off... I'm in Westport, but frankly I think I'd prefer Milford. At least you have an Archie Moore's for good wings! :smile: And yes, as far as I can tell with regard to equiptment... if you can afford it, get it. Makes things much easier... if time is a precious commodity for you too.




sNApple said:


> you make me want discus


Everyone should try IMO, if you are so inclined. They are beautiful, fun, and loaded with personality. But once I conquer this algae, it's threatening to get one of those "been there, done that, need something new now... " kind of feelings. I'll be surprised if this is a discus tank 1-2 years from today. Or at the very least, not one anything like this.




ikuzo said:


> get more plants Steve. your algae problem will reduce.


Yeah thanks. But that's the easy answer. We all know the easiest way out of algae is to stuff a tank with plants. This scarce layout in a tank full of big fish, on the other hand, is a challenge. That's what I want - a challenge.


----------



## scolley

*Facinating algae observation*

It's interesting that there have been recent discussions on Ocean Clear filters here, because mine started to clog up in a hurry. The pressure gauge started showing a rapidly progressing increase over time. So I knew I had to do what I've been avoiding... opening it up and cleaning that filter.

So I removed the filter media, soaked the micro filter in a chlorox water mix (after hose-blasting off all the gunk), and rinsed the bio-filter portion in water from the tank. Both were absolutely filthy.

As it turned out, my fears of leaking were unfounded. Once I put the cleaned media back in, everything went back together without leaking a drop. Cool.

And the pressure reading on the pressure gauge dropped a lot too. Not as much as when it was new, but much lower, so I know I'm getting good flow. But will eventually have to invest in a new cartridge - which are expensive for these things.

The whole process kicked a ton of crap into the water in the tank, and I said "Hey, what a good excuse to do an 80% water change!". Big mistake I think.

As you may know, I've been fighting both GDA and GSA for a while. The GDA has been particularly bothersome. But lately, it's been pretty good.

Now Tom Barr says it's a life-cycle things. Others say it's the natural outcome of healthy water. Some point to certain ferts. Well I've go a bit of observation to share...

My GDA EXPLODED! And GSA kicked up too!

I've never seen GDA so bad. It's almost out of control.

I change my water constantly - enough everyday so that it's 50% every three days. So this shouldn't be about water chemistry difference. But I'll bet it has to do with water biology differences. I'll bet when I cleaned the filter media, plus changed most of the water, I trashed significant portion of my biofilter. Granted, I've got plants, but it's not a heavily planted tank. And I have a Eheim Pro II running too. But it's somewhat small relative to the tank size. And the filter surface area I cleaned this weekend was monstrous. 

And that could have a lot to do with why people associate GDA with tank maturity. Maybe it is... or rather it is best held at bay when you have a mature, and substantial, biofilter. And I just gave mine a major setback. :icon_sad: 

Anyway, it seemed a great learning opportunity. Everything was pretty good, then I clean my filter and did an 80% water change... and the GDA explodes.

There's a lesson here somewhere.

Well, that's my speculation anyway.


----------



## deleted_user_16

I love this thread, I always used to look at it for fun! It looks so colorful, lively, and exotic.


----------



## eyebeatbadgers

The new scape looks like it could be in one of the new AT&T commercials, with the "more bars in more places" theme.


----------



## Gatekeeper

Wow Scolley that is very interesting with the GDA and GSA. This tank has been up for a while too.

Out of curiosity, did you have similar problems with the original Kahuna? Can you possibly attibute it to the intensity of the metal halides?

BTW...I love this thread. Your plumbing is one to aspire too. I love the techy stuff! Well Done.

Your discus are wonderful too. Love their coloration in the MH's. Such a clean look to them.

I like the "openess" you have created by removing some of the DW. Although it looked great before, I believe that it took away from the fish a little. Now, they both seem to compliment better IMO.

Keep up the goods bro!


----------



## jeffboyarrdee

Sssaaawwweeeeeettt!!!


----------



## Buck

Your efforts really show in the tank Steve. 
One of these days I gotta take a road trip down to see this beast in person and while Im there I would love to see this tank as well ! :hihi: 

Count me in as one of the "Wow" people !


----------



## rasetsu

I hate you...I hate you so very very much. LOL! The colors look awesome.

I love the pic of the discus staring down the shrimp. Are they ghosties or amanos?


----------



## AndrewH

This is a very beautiful display.

I really like the way the acrylic allows you to not use a canopy/hood and that you can't see any equipment in/around the tank. Very sleek and clean looking setup.


----------



## kzr750r1

Have a similar battle starting here. Slapped the bio filter on the 55 in a similar manner and messed with the quantity/number of fast growers. GDA on some of the old growth java and GSA growing faster on the glass.

I'm also experiencing a crypt melt in the process... So the added plant matter is not helping anything.

I feel messing with to many things just whacks out the balance.

I've been doing some WC biweekly to keep IMO now excess NH4 from building up post changes.

At this point doing my best to get ferts back on track. PO4 seems high and for several months I have added little NO3. It's at an all time low...

Keep up the good fight. I wonder if it's possible to back flush with tank water during some WC. May extend the filter life and existing bio mass.


----------



## scolley

gmccreedy said:


> Out of curiosity, did you have similar problems with the original Kahuna? Can you possibly attibute it to the intensity of the metal halides?


I had a little bit of this problem with my original 20g tank, before the original Kahuna. And when I had the problem with the 20g, it was before it really grew in. So my assumption is that - as I stated before - it is a "maturity" issue. Which frankly, may well be more a function of biofiltration mass than tank longevity.



rasetsu said:


> I hate you...I hate you so very very much. LOL! The colors look awesome.
> 
> I love the pic of the discus staring down the shrimp. Are they ghosties or amanos?


Hey pal... I hate you too! :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: 
Just kidding. That's pretty funny! LOL!

I've got amanos. But the shrimp that keep the bottom clean are all ghost, or glass, shrimp. Two different common names for the same shrimp.

But make no mistake! These buggers really thirve in these conditions. I've got one or two bamboo shrimp (or wood shrimp) in my tank. And while these are normally considered to be large shrimp, I've got ghost shrimp that have grown longer. Maybe not thicker, but MUCH longer.

And some of these ghost shrimp have gotten REALLY big. So big that some have blue claws, and try to grab (and eat) other ghost shrimp. In fact, when i was dropping a blood worm cube in the tank today, one big fat blue clawed ghost shrimp swam right past the discus (practicaly swatting them out of the way!) and sat there right at the top of the water, in my face, waiting for me to drop in the food! It saw me... and got there before the fish! Not to stupid for an invert IMO!



kzr750r1 said:


> Have a similar battle starting here. Slapped the bio filter on the 55 in a similar manner and messed with the quantity/number of fast growers. GDA on some of the old growth java and GSA growing faster on the glass.
> 
> I wonder if it's possible to back flush with tank water during some WC. May extend the filter life and existing bio mass.


Well thanks... it's good to know that I'm not alone it this experience.

But I'm afraid the backflush function just does not work on the OC 340. Which is too bad really.

Yet all in all, I'm pretty happy. I was assuming that my wonderful, long lasting , filtration was due to my back flush efforts. But in fact, the 340 does not back flush much at all. My long lasting great filtration was just due to the incredible capacity of the OC 340!

That said, this whole experience has convinced me to shelve my Eheim Pro II, and go buy that 2nd OC 340 that I had intended all along.

My order will commence in moments...


----------



## LondonDragon

WOW amazing tank, that plumbing is amazing thats what I call high tech.
If I send you a plane ticket, offer free accomodation and food will you come to the UK and do the setup for my new tank???? hehehe Congrats


----------



## scolley

LondonDragon said:


> If I send you a plane ticket, offer free accomodation and food will you come to the UK and do the setup for my new tank????


Sure! I usually stay in Mayfair, somewhere not too far from the Green Park station. I find that real convenient to most of the places I like/need to go. Can you set me up with that? If so, I'm there! :smile:

PS - actually that is true. That's why my tank is so automated. I travel a pretty good bit. And until lately, London has been a frequent stop.


----------



## Steve Kelly

scolley said:


> But I'm afraid the backflush function just does not work on the OC 340. Which is too bad really.
> 
> Yet all in all, I'm pretty happy. I was assuming that my wonderful, long lasting , filtration was due to my back flush efforts. But in fact, the 340 does not back flush much at all. My long lasting great filtration was just due to the incredible capacity of the OC 340!
> 
> That said, this whole experience has convinced me to shelve my Eheim Pro II, and go buy that 2nd OC 340 that I had intended all along.
> 
> My order will commence in moments...




Steve,

For general reference purposes, I would like to know the following:

1. With a new 25 micron cartridge in your OC filter what does the pressure gauge indicate with the Poseidon PS1 running full tilt?

2. If you close the valve(s) on the 'Output' side of the OC what will the pressure rise to?


I've been using one of the Nu-Clear 533s and one of the older Lifegard Quiet One pumps (600gph @ 7 Ft. head) on my 90-gallon tank for about a month now and have been very happy with its performance. The band clamp sealing mechanism used on this filter has given me no troubles when it comes to changing out media and re-sealing the canister.

With a new 25-micron cartridge my initial pressure is 3.5 psi. With the 'Output' side of the filter shut off my pump runs the pressure up to 10 psi. However, even with the high output pump I'm using I've found that once the pressure starts to rise above the initial pressure of 3.5 psi the flow from the pump into the tank drops quickly. Once the back pressure gets to around 5 psi I would say the flow through the system is at least 50 percent less than with a new cartridge.

I found that attempting to clean the pleated cartridge by spraying it with a garden hose was pretty much a waste of time. Using a pressure washer was much more effective in removing/forcing more debris out of the fibers. Still, the pressure washer cleaned cartridge seems to have lasted only about one week before the pressure gauge is starting to rise again. I should mention that I did not bleach the cartridge on the first go around. Next time I will do a bleach and pressure wash. 


Steve


----------



## bgoodwins

You might try stepping up to a higher micron size. @5 is pretty small for general purpose unless you have larger (100?) micron filters before it in series.


----------



## bgoodwins

Scolley, did you ever happen to make that outflow diagram? Color me interested


----------



## samckitt

This is just beautiful, that is all I can say, beautiful.


----------



## Oqsy

good stuff as always steve


----------



## jphan

why do u ahve a wireless router for your tank? lol


----------



## ganjero

jphan said:


> why do u ahve a wireless router for your tank? lol


its connected to an aquarium controller and sends all the info to the computer, it can send email alerts and some controllers text message alerts if something is out of balance in your tank.Then with most advance controllers you can turn things off and on through the Internet, in case you are on vacation or something like that, and I believe the owner of this tank travels a lot so its a great tool for him.


----------



## jphan

wow! lol


----------



## macclellan

I agree with the GDA being linked to biofilter maturity. I had the nastiest outbreak I'd ever seen in a new tank (it literally coated 80% of the tank), despite being precycled and not being a 'new' tank (the tank/substrate had been used for a different setup previously, so no silicates or whatever). In a few weeks it was gone. I never had the GSA problems like that though, so I can't comment there.


----------



## scolley

*Very long response... !*



Steve Kelly said:


> Steve,
> 
> For general reference purposes, I would like to know the following:
> 
> 1. With a new 25 micron cartridge in your OC filter what does the pressure gauge indicate with the Poseidon PS1 running full tilt?
> 
> 2. If you close the valve(s) on the 'Output' side of the OC what will the pressure rise to?
> 
> Steve


My pressure gauge does not just show just pressure caused by the filter. Due to all the back pressure of my extensive plumbing after the filter, it's a little elevated. So,

With brand new plumbing (not gunked up), and new filter media, my pressure on the Ocean Clear 340 was dead on 5 PSI. And very low flow out of the filter.

I changed my filter media at 10 PSI.

When I bleached and pressure washed the filter, my pressure dropped to 8 PSI, but climbed within days back to 10. Moral of the story... buy a new cartridge.

With a new cartridge in, my PSI is 7.25. I assume the drop from the original 5 is due to the gunk in my extensive lines. And water gushing out of the filter.

And when my Poseidon is unrestricted, but I shut off the outflow of my Ocean Clear, the PSI sits firmly on 10 PSI - just like you.

Oh yeah, it's worth noting that I've change the media two times now - once with a "cleaned" cartridge, and once with a new cartridge (since the cleaned one clogged so fast - just like for you), and the screw top gave me no trouble at all either time. Since the first time was a bear, I'm wondering if maybe it just has to seat itself, or compress, or something. Either way, the seal is no problem now. Just needs a hammer. :icon_eek: 





bgoodwins said:


> You might try stepping up to a higher micron size. @5 is pretty small for general purpose unless you have larger (100?) micron filters before it in series.


I'm not sure what I said before... it's a 25 micron filter. Which is small technically, but I have filter socks on my outflows, so it doesn't get gunked up with big chunks. Only little stuff makes it to it. And it was 6-8 months before I had to change it. So I'm not going to sweat it. 6 months or more between filter maintenance is just fine in my book.





bgoodwins said:


> Scolley, did you ever happen to make that outflow diagram? Color me interested


I need to finish that diagram don't I? Sorry. It wound up being a ton of work, and I've got a lot going on in my personal life keeping me busy. But I'll try to get to it within a month or two. Promise.





samckitt said:


> This is just beautiful, that is all I can say, beautiful.


Thanks! You should see the algae!  





Oqsy said:


> good stuff as always steve


Thanks buddy! Always nice to hear from you!





jphan said:


> why do u ahve a wireless router for your tank? lol


I trust you read ganjero's reply...





ganjero said:


> its connected to an aquarium controller and sends all the info to the computer, it can send email alerts and some controllers text message alerts if something is out of balance in your tank.Then with most advance controllers you can turn things off and on through the Internet, in case you are on vacation or something like that, and I believe the owner of this tank travels a lot so its a great tool for him.


Thanks for helping me not have to type all that! You said it better than I could have.





jphan said:


> wow! lol


Thanks!





macclellan said:


> I agree with the GDA being linked to biofilter maturity. I had the nastiest outbreak I'd ever seen in a new tank (it literally coated 80% of the tank), despite being precycled and not being a 'new' tank (the tank/substrate had been used for a different setup previously, so no silicates or whatever). In a few weeks it was gone. I never had the GSA problems like that though, so I can't comment there.


I appreciate the feedback on that. Tom Barr appears to think it is a life cycle issue. And it may be, but I'm not sure it is the lifecycle of GDA. I've written quite a few PMs to people that have tried to wait it out. And I've tried it. And I've read a lot about it here, and have yet to see anything that appears to be real proof that it is a GDA lifecycle issue. And even though there is a LOT of evidence that it MIGHT be, too many people have tried to wait it out, only to have it reappear soon thereafter.

But it does seem like it might be related to the size of the biofilter. That could appear as a life-cycle thing. People think they are waiting out the algae life cycle as it gunks up their tank walls, while in actual fact the only thing that's happening is the new tank's biofilter is maturing. So they scrape the walls and "wallah! it's better!" when all that has happened is that their biofilter has become more robust over the weeks that the algae grew.

I'm not stating that that is what is happening. But I am positing it as a possibility. The one thing I can say for certain, was that it was improving a good bit until I changed my filter, and BANG! The GDA exploded.

Sounds like a biofilter issue to me.


----------



## saint27

I will weight in on this topic of biomedia vs. GDA. I have a 75 gallon AGA that had a fuval 305 running on it. The seal on the canister stopped sealing. This gave me a good reason to put together the sump that I have wanted to for awhile. It took me two months before I got everything together, tested and running correctly. In that time the tank got really bad algae all over the glass. You could barely see through it. I got the sump running and told myself that I would clean up the tank the following weekend. Well as the week went by I started to notice that the glass was getting cleaner. So I let it go for another week. Guess what? There is almost no trace of algae on the glass at all. 

Now I don't think that the two Ottos I have in there all of a sudden got really hungry and went to town.:hihi: The only thing I could think of was the increased flow and addition of biomedia is what caused the algae to die off and the glass to clear up.


----------



## Steve Kelly

scolley said:


> My pressure gauge does not just show just pressure caused by the filter. Due to all the back pressure of my extensive plumbing after the filter, it's a little elevated. So,
> 
> With brand new plumbing (not gunked up), and new filter media, my pressure on the Ocean Clear 340 was dead on 5 PSI. And very low flow out of the filter.
> 
> I changed my filter media at 10 PSI.
> 
> When I bleached and pressure washed the filter, my pressure dropped to 8 PSI, but climbed within days back to 10. Moral of the story... buy a new cartridge.
> 
> With a new cartridge in, my PSI is 7.25. I assume the drop from the original 5 is due to the gunk in my extensive lines. And water gushing out of the filter.
> 
> And when my Poseidon is unrestricted, but I shut off the outflow of my Ocean Clear, the PSI sits firmly on 10 PSI - just like you.
> 
> Oh yeah, it's worth noting that I've change the media two times now - once with a "cleaned" cartridge, and once with a new cartridge (since the cleaned one clogged so fast - just like for you), and the screw top gave me no trouble at all either time. Since the first time was a bear, I'm wondering if maybe it just has to seat itself, or compress, or something. Either way, the seal is no problem now. Just needs a hammer. :icon_eek:
> 
> Sounds like a biofilter issue to me.



Steve,

Thanks for the info. It sounds like your Poseidon PS1 is a pretty close match to the old style Quiet One pump I'm using. I can see now why your second filter, the Eheim, has been so beneficial to your setup.

With a new cartridge my pressure is about 3.5 psi with a flow of at least 300~400 gph. Once the pressure rises to around 6 psi I'd say the flow drops to around 75~100 gph -- too low on my system since I only have the one pump to move water around the tank. It sure keeps the water crystal clear though. :smile:

I think the reason my cartridge in the Nu-Clear didn't last near as long as yours did has more to do with the lighter biological loading in your tank vs. mine. I have over 500 cherry red shrimp in my 90-gallon at the moment. They require a fair amount of food and are constantly stirring things up. It's definitely time to lighten the load in my tank.

I'm going to give my used 25-micron cartridge one more try by bleaching it first and then pressure washing it.

After a little research, I've come to the conclusion that all of the Ocean Clear cartridges and foam filter options can also be used in the Nu-Clear filters. I'm seriously considering trying one of the OC 25-micron carts since they're advertised as having 40 sq.ft. surface area instead of the Nu-Clear's 30 sq.ft. I also like the idea of using the foam inserts from OC to increase the biological filtration capacity of the Nu-Clear.

Steve


----------



## neilfishguy

I want some algea pics...PLEASE!!!!!


----------



## scolley

saint27 said:


> I will weight in on this topic of biomedia vs. GDA....
> It took me two months before I got everything together, tested and running correctly...
> Well as the week went by...
> So I let it go for another week. Guess what? There is almost no trace of algae on the glass at all.


I appreciate the comments. But from the sound of things this could also be another argument for it being a life cycle issue. As in you let enough time go buy, you left it undisturbed, and it corrected itself.

Only problem is, that argument does not establish clear cause (give it time) and effect (it clears up). It's ENTIRELY possible that the cause is a maturing biofilter. But as far as I can tell, it's tough to tell the difference. Unless of course I can find people that have a proven, mature, intatct biofilter that suddenly get's GDA and eradicates it by leaving it alone. But I haven't seen that yet.

Thanks for posting!




Steve Kelly said:


> I'm going to give my used 25-micron cartridge one more try by bleaching it first and then pressure washing it.
> 
> After a little research, I've come to the conclusion that all of the Ocean Clear cartridges and foam filter options can also be used in the Nu-Clear filters. I'm seriously considering trying one of the OC 25-micron carts since they're advertised as having 40 sq.ft. surface area instead of the Nu-Clear's 30 sq.ft. I also like the idea of using the foam inserts from OC to increase the biological filtration capacity of the Nu-Clear.
> 
> Steve


Please let me know if that bleach and pressure wash works for you Steve. Bleaching and using a normal hose did squat for me.

I hope you are right about the cartridges interchangability. I've got a 2nd OC340 that I've been ready to install - replacing the Eheim Pro II. But I've ordered the foam inserts for an OC 318 because it's got 200+ sf. ft. of biological media vs. the 30 or 40 in the OC 340. I don't really need any more mechanical filtering - don't think so anyway.

So I'm hoping to find this stuff is really interchangable. Thanks for the tip!




neilfishguy said:


> I want some algea pics...PLEASE!!!!!


Took some last night. Tank looked like crap. Will try to post them this weekend. Really.


----------



## scolley

*Algae pics...*

Just to demonstrate that things aren't always perfect in paradise, here are some pics of the algae problem I've found myself in.









This was after about 5 days of no glass cleaning. You can see some spots that look recently cleaned, due to the crisp edges on the algae. But really that is just spots that I missed 5 days ago, the kicked in with a little head start on everything else.

In the last pics you can see (if you look real hard) some thread algae that has started in these "daughter shoots" of my Ozelot swords. They are in a very high flow area at the top, under the brightest light. And they did not appear until I bumped my phosphates up to 2.0. And it happened that SAME DAY. So, given what I have been through in the past with this crap, I KNOW that fast moving water, under high light, with phosphates in the 2.0 range AT LEAST is a significant contributing factor to this stuff. I'm not gonna say it causes it. There may be some other root cause. But in certain conditions (like my tanks) it remains dormant until I provide those three conditions.

I have since sniped off those daughter plants, temporarily replanted them in sand, and have thus robbed them of one of the three triggers - fast moving water. And the thread algae can no longer be seen. But they are in bright light (not as bright as the top of the tank) and phosphates are still around 2.0.

As for the GDA, it seems to be improving with time. If you've been following this thread you will know that when I changed my filter media in my Ocean Clear 340 it exploded. And immediately thereafter I was getting non-zero amonia readings. But now the amonia appears to be zero. Yet the GDA continues.

So I wonder, maybe it's not so much a biofilter "maturity" issue, as a biofilter "size" issue. Common sense dictates that your biofilter get's bigger as it matures, and ultimately settles into an optimal size. And if so, maybe while my test kits show zero ammonia, maybe it is there in very small quantities - too small for my kits to show. And if indeed GDA is linked to your biofilter size, maybe that little bit is just enough to keep triggering GDA.

This leaves me with a dilemma. I've got a now OC 340 waiting to be installed (replacing my Eheim Pro II). A 340 has the giant pleated filter plus 50 sq. ft. of biofilter material. And I've got the filter media for an OC 318 arriving in a day or so. This is a whopping 205 sq. ft. of biofilter material. And (I think) if I drop it in the 304, removing the 340 media, I've converted my 304 into a 318 - one massive biofilter. It's an option.

So I've got a few options - all involve replacing my Eheim Pro II - drop in a new OC 340 (mech + 50 sq. ft. bio) or a new OC 318 (205 sq. ft. bio). But all options involve uncertainties, and compromises.

New OC 340

Requires an new Poseidon T1 (have one extra now) to push it. Poseidons are wicked quiet, but add 1-4 degrees of heat to the water. I don't know it the tank (and ambient room conditions) can handle that. 
Also, it may not be a large enough increase to the potential size of my biofilter. I have no idea what the size of my Eheim Pro II 2026 is that it is replacing.

New OC 318

Needs to be fronted by a mechanical filter. That means plumbing it to be in-line with my 340. That has two big potential problems.
My design of redundant plumbing loops is shot. If I lose this loop, it's all gone.
Removing my Eheim Pro II (to make room in the stand) means the lose of about 250 GPH filtration. That means my total flow will only be about 300 GPH at best. That's what the OC 340 plumbing loop does now. And an OC 318 on that will only slow it down more.

And I have a third option...

New OC 340
...but running in parallel to the other 340, pushed by a single Poseidon (similar to Tom Barr's new setup)

The major disadvantage I see here is that you might have to keep adjusting the ball valves that balance the flow between the two parallel plumbing loops.
As one filter gunks up, you have to keep directing more flow to it, until you change the media, and then reset them again.



I'm WIDE OPEN for opinions here. If you got 'em, I'd love to hear 'em!

Thanks.

PS - you can't see the two wonderful Ozelot swords anymore - except for their shoots, because the arrived in emersed form. Those leaves all died underwater (no growth and algae covered), and all the new submerged leaves went straight to the top. I had to keep cutting them back to train them to put out lower leaves - which they are doing. But they are doing it slowly, and they are currently hidden behind the driftwood and the moss. Hopefully they will return - in submerged form - to their former emerged size before too long.


----------



## deleted_user_16

I feel bad for you man, I have a Eclipse 12 and after like 2 months, I still get this stupid algae away.


----------



## stagius

I really missed ur tank at the beginning.
Hope you can make it.

Is that green water? Or just GDA ?


----------



## BiscuitSlayer

Scolley-

Have you checked your CO2 levels though all of this? I was wondering if something might be restricted causing the CO2 flow to be less than what it should be. I realize that your aquacontroller is probably tuned into all of this, but I thought I would throw it out there.

I am a systems engineer, and I don't put too much faith in eletronics (most of the time)


----------



## Buck

Steve I noticed that you have a lot of root feeders like crypts,swords etc. with very few stems to absorb your fert's. I agree it could be the filter maturity issue but until it gets there you should consider floating/planting a bunch of hygro or something similar to starve the algae.
Swords and crypts wont to diddly to absolve these issues.


----------



## scolley

BiscuitSlayer said:


> Have you checked your CO2 levels though all of this?


fair question. answer - yes.

I've got a hand held pH meter that I use to corroborate the readings of my in-tank meterA couple of weeks ago I did a 2-point calibration of the hand held, and then tested it against reference solutions. It reads pretty accurate, and it agrees (within a small tolerance) of the reading of the in-tank meter.

As for KH, that's a little fuzzier, though I do have a Lamotte test kit which provides very precise (accurate?) results. And I use a 2nd, LFS quality, test kit to corroborate the results of that Lamotte.

In short, when I factor in margin of error, it's possible that my CO2 is as low as 24 ppm. Or it could be as high as 39. I guess a slight boost would be ok. But I'm not one to crank CO2 as an algaecide. My minimum (worst case) should be enough to support healthy, well lit, fertilized plants.

Though a small boost wouldn't hurt. Thanks. :icon_wink 



Buck said:


> Steve I noticed that you have a lot of root feeders like crypts,swords etc. with very few stems to absorb your fert's. I agree it could be the filter maturity issue but until it gets there you should consider floating/planting a bunch of hygro or something similar to starve the algae.
> Swords and crypts wont to diddly to absolve these issues.


Good point Buck. Thanks. I've got some pretty big hunks of Taiwan moss - total volume of about the size of one and a half basketballs - that should be soaking up stuff from the water column. Something is soaking it up, because if I don't dose NPK, is drops pretty precipitously.

But I will look for a short term, fert soaking possibility. Thanks.


----------



## BiscuitSlayer

scolley said:


> In short, when I factor in margin of error, it's possible that my CO2 is as low as 24 ppm. Or it could be as high as 39. I guess a slight boost would be ok. But I'm not one to crank CO2 as an algaecide. My minimum (worst case) should be enough to support healthy, well lit, fertilized plants.


A slight boost might help, but it sounds like you are "in the green" with your range. 

I hate to make it sound like I like it when you have a problem like this, but the fact of the matter is when you figure it out and share your knowledge we will all gain from it.

I look forward to your resolution.


----------



## Gatekeeper

Scolley,

Not sure if you do this already, but with those LFS test kits, I do use a larger test sample then they request. For instance i use 10 to 20 ml reference solution instead of my tests 5ml reference. This allows me to break up the single degree results into 0.25 degree results. Follow? This may help you narrow the margin a bit more.

Without looking to deep into this discussion, out of curiosity, have you backed off a little on your light durations? Could this help ease the algae fight for a while?


----------



## scolley

BiscuitSlayer said:


> I hate to make it sound like I like it when you have a problem like this, but the fact of the matter is when you figure it out and share your knowledge we will all gain from it.


That's OK. That's why I post, and try to keep good records about what REALLY happened in my tanks. My only concern is that for us to learn, I've got to figure this one out. Not a guaranteed outcome I'm afraid... :wink: 




gmccreedy said:


> Scolley,
> 
> Not sure if you do this already, but with those LFS test kits, I do use a larger test sample then they request. For instance i use 10 to 20 ml reference solution instead of my tests 5ml reference. This allows me to break up the single degree results into 0.25 degree results. Follow? This may help you narrow the margin a bit more.
> 
> Without looking to deep into this discussion, out of curiosity, have you backed off a little on your light durations? Could this help ease the algae fight for a while?


I did know about the test kit trick, but frankly hadn't used it in a while to the reminder is good. But I'm not worried about the CO2. Where ever it is, it's in acceptable ranges. My plants are pearling pretty well every day. It's not like they are not photosynthesizing.

As for backing off on the light... good question. But a few months ago I had this problem, and I INCREASED the photoperiod to fight this. I figured that using light as my throttle, my short photoperiods were not getting the job done. So I figured I'd increase it to help push my plants into high gear.

It didn't seem to make a big difference with the algae. But the plants liked it.


----------



## Brilliant

Well that does suck. I get some green algae on my discus tank glass so I am trying out a new idea. I have a bunch of floating plants and I plan on making a channel around the perimeter of the tank.

I like the floating plants but they get overgrown quickly. I am hoping this helps keeps them in check and keeps some light off the glass...I have no green algae on my glass where its shaded by the floating plants.

I think the green algae on glass is caused by intense or long light. I dont dose my discus tank at all. I am changing water and with the forest of floating plants its low on nutrients.

Oh yeah decreasing the photoperiod in my 75g put a considerable dent in the growth rate of algae on the glass. There no shading that tank...


----------



## scolley

Brilliant said:


> Oh yeah decreasing the photoperiod in my 75g put a considerable dent in the growth rate of algae on the glass.


Well I've been battling this problem since this tank started, to some degree or another.

For the 1st 6 months my photo period was 7.5 hrs, with a 90 minute siesta in the middle (9 hour lapsed time). But since that wasn't working, I eliminated the siesta, and boosted my photoperiod to be 2 hours after the sun comes up until sundown. That's about 9 hours right now. Will get longer as we approach summer. But the point is... I never had a long photoperiod and I had this problem, and I'm not particularly long now.

I KNOW that I should only try one variable at a time, but I'm getting desperate. So I am dumping a ton of stems in the tank for a while. Well maybe not a ton, but about 40 stems of Anacharis (Egeria najas), 25 stems Green Temple (Hygrophilia corymbosa), 25 stems broad leaf Ludwigia (Ludwigia repens), 40 stems of Rotalla Wallichii (Rotalla wallichii), and about 25 stems of Wisteria (Hygrophila difformis). Maybe that will make a dent.

And I am ALSO starting a 5 day course of Maracyn. As I've mentioned before, I keep detailed records. And a few months ago I mistakenly thought that I was getting BGA. I was wrong. It was different. But in my mistaken notion of having BGA I did a panic 5 day course of Maracyn. And to my surprise, it seems to completely eradicate the GSA. Now obviously it has come back. But it seemed to work once. I'm gonna try it again. And maybe the stems can keep it at bay. At least till I can get my 2nd Ocean Clear with the big biofilter up, running and mature.

This hobby just NEVER gets boring. :wink:


----------



## Bert H

Hey Steve, I haven't been around here much lately, but I always enjoy reading your threads. Sorry to hear about your gsa/gda battles. Here's my experience with gda, experience only, since I offer no answers. I have 3 tanks - 2 - 50's and a 10. All are pressurized, dosed via modified EI.

The AGA 50 is lit via a 96W AHS kit plus a 30W std strip. Rarely gets any gda, though I wipe the glass weekly with my water changes, I could easily go 2-3 weeks without needing to wipe down. This tank's photoperiod is 1.5 hours longer than the others (9.5 hours vs 8)

The Oceanic 50 is lit via 2 - 55W AHS lights/reflectors. This tank is on a back wall which faces 2 windows which face east - meaning in the mornings, you could argue it gets hit with a fair amount of 'brightness' though not necessarily sunlight. This tank needs weekly wiping for gda or in 3 weeks it will look like your pic does. 

The 10 is lit via 36W ahs kit. It lies somewhere in between the 2 50's in gda levels and wiping requirements.

I have tried leaving gda alone for 2 months, then wiping, vaccumming, and found no difference other than streaks on the glass from snails which do slowly eat the gda. Filter maintenance (Renas on the 50's and HOB on the 10) doesn't have any effect on amount of gsa. The only thing which I believe (no scientific proof here) improved the situation some was cutting down on the photoperiod and my micro dosing. For a while, I was adding micros daily and noticed that I was having more gda than ever before, including getting some on Anubias leaves. When I cut this down, it improved it some. I suppose I could really try to narrow this down and get more specific needs, but I just don't have the time nor the inclination to get very scientific and get the 'perfect' balance. After all, it's a hobby, which is supposed to relax me and provide enjoyment, right? 

Anyways, sorry for the ramblings, but just thought I'd throw a small tidbit at you there. 

BTW, tank and fish are gorgeous, even with the gsa!  No, it never does get boring - thankfully!


----------



## scolley

Thanks for the input Bert! It's a few good data points from which to try to draw conclusions from. If I'm reading it right, it doesn't sound like ambient sunlight is a significant factor, nor is overall level of light. But photo period and excess micros might be. And for you, the "let it grow through the life-cycle" thing made no difference.

Thanks. That's information to meditate on for a while... Please correct me if I missed something.

My records seem indicate that my photo period change had no impact on things though. I went back and checked. So I cannot explain why our observations contradict.  And your observations agree with Brilliant's. Not sure why mine seems to be different.

But I can say that my GDA is in major retreat right now!

I just got finished cleaning the tank walls, and there was virtually none to be found. A few tiny spots that I had clearly missed in prior cleanings, but the walls themselves were clean. Now, I had cleaned the walls two days ago. But it's been weeks since I could go two days and see no visible GDA grow.

So what has changed?

1) I dropped in all the stem plants I mentioned previously.
2) I've been dosing Maracyn daily. I'm on day 5 of a 7 day treatment.
3) I installed the new Ocean Clear 340 plus a new Pump to push it. So that means I'm pushing an addtional 250 (approx) GPH of water through the tank (new pump at 500+ vs. Eheim Pro II at 250) and that I pulled out a mature biofilter, with clogged mechanical filtration, and replaced it with fresh mechanical filtration and with zero biological filtration (it's brand new)
4) I replaced my "new" micron filter on the original Ocean Clear 340 (because its flow had eroded down to a trickle and pressure had climbed to 10 psi!). The replacement filter was actually an old one that I had blasted in Chlorox for days. In the process of doing that I found that my filter's outlet at the bottom had become clogged with grunge. So replacing the filter itself may have had no difference. But my flow rate through it (with the grunge cleared out) probably improved my flow from something like 100 gph to around 350 gph. Big difference.

So... can I say what has made the difference? Absolutely not. But things seem to be massively improved. It looks so good, that I'll be really surprised if things don't still look good in a week. (He says with fingers crossed.)

Sorry that I went and changed multiple factors at once. So there is no one thing we can point to if this works. But I was getting desperate. Sorry. It was getting to be a real problem. And for someone that has had real algae problems before, I was not going to let it happen again.

I guess we'll see in a week if it makes any difference!


----------



## Bert H

Whatever the reason(s), I'm glad it's under retreat! :thumbsup: It may well be a combination of all your variables which is the reason. After all, it is a miniature eco-system we have in our tanks, and all have their own fulcrums under which they are balanced.


----------



## BiscuitSlayer

scolley said:


> Sorry that I went and changed multiple factors at once. So there is no one thing we can point to if this works. But I was getting desperate. Sorry. It was getting to be a real problem. And for someone that has had real algae problems before, I was not going to let it happen again.


I am glad things are working out, but I am bummed out that you threw so much ammo at the problem at one time. I would have liked to see how much of an impact the myacin had alone. 

I wonder how much the stems will actually help if it is a nutrient overload situation. I would imagine the growth rates might show something.

Keep us posted on the outcome!


----------



## scolley

*No algae! Beautiful Stems!*

Wow! I'm just knocked out. There is STILL no GDA! This makes 5 days since I last cleaned the walls. Even at its best, this tank has NEVER gone 5 days and not had new GDA evident. So something I did, or a combination, has made an unambiguous difference.

Was it the Maracyn? Lots of stems? New filter? Better flow on the old? Or a combination? I'm sure I'll never know. And I'm sorry that I don't have something learned that I can pass along - other than that this combo makes a BIG difference.

I haven't changed my lighting at all. But I have changed my dosing. Kind of. With all these stems, needless to say I had to increase dosages. But I've been testing almost daily, and I've made sure I'm keeping my levels at N-14, P-1.5-2, K-20+. I've not changed my micros, except that I've moved my ECA (ADA Fe) from 8 drops/day to 12.

In other words, IMO the loss of GDA is not due to a fert change.

But the real thing that has knocked me out is the improvement in how the tank looks. I've been so focused on Discus and keeping the tank low maintenance, that I've completely ignored what a WONDERFUL canvas a 180g is for doing spectacular things with plants. I'm really taken with the increase in beauty this temporary addition of plants is to the tank. 

One way or another, I'm gonna have to figure out a way to keep some of these stems without massively increasing the work load.

Always nice to have a new challenge!


PS - The Anacharis (Egeria najas) just melted. Don't know if it was the temp or what, but it just plain died. All of it.

PPS - And the Wisteria (Hygrophila difformis) is just kind of hanging in... slow growth, slow dieback of old lower leaves. This plant is just pretty much maintaining, unlike the Green Temple, Ludwigia, and Rotalla which seem to be thriving. Glad I had the presence of mind to select an assortment.


----------



## Buck

Well thats great news Steve, glad you are on the mend.

I still say its the stems that did the trick. You very rarely see a tank loaded with stems get algae. It seems its always a tank with a slight imbalance in ferts and no stems gobbling them up that get whacked. 

If only plants could talk...  

Heh, if you are the patient type and want to test the theory you could always yank the stems again leaving the same flow/ filter adjustments but I fear it would rear its ugly head again. :redface:


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## scolley

Buck said:


> Heh, if you are the patient type and want to test the theory you could always yank the stems again leaving the same flow/ filter adjustments but I fear it would rear its ugly head again. :redface:


I'm definitely patient Buck. But I kicked a number of things in at the same time because I had a major problem underway. And having a planted discus tanks makes problems a little more urgent. The two are a bit more difficult to keep in balance than your typical plants with tetras tank. So I got aggressive before it got out of control.

But I WOULD like to know (and share) what made the difference.

If it starts to come back soon, before I try shutting off the filter, or pulling the stems, that will point to the Maracyn. So I'm going to let things sit for a while. And if it returns within a month, I'm gonna hit it with Maracyn again - just to see if that was it.

And if it does not return (in a major way) in a month, I'll try pulling the stems for a little while. And I'll try shutting off the new filter too. The results of that could be telling.

But even if the GSA does not come back, that does not mean one of those two factors didn't kill it. Not growing back from an "remission" state is not the same thing as dying when it is "dominant" IMO.

I definitely want to know what's at the root of this problem. And I definitely want to share it with the community. If it can be figured out, it should be shared!


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## Gatekeeper

With no conclusive evidence, this is a tough issue to crack for sure Steve, but I am really curious if the filter media change was the winning element here? Could it be that GSA is really water borne algae that evenutally eventually attaches when the timing is right? Is it possible that your media was able to strip it out of the water column?

Don't know much about algae, so I could be just a complete idiot here. But I must say, you went from a very poor condition, to a very positive one very quickly.

Could it be a competition issue with the stems? I guess... but I am not sure how much you have packed in there to draw conclusion on that.

Glad to see you up and rocking again!

P.S. Thanks for the PM.


----------



## scolley

gmccreedy said:


> Could it be that GSA is really water borne algae that evenutally eventually attaches when the timing is right?


I said GSA before. Sorry! I meant GDA.

While I had, and have, GSA. It was the GDA that was killing me.

Time and a bit of experimentation will tell on the cause.



PS - This is the 2nd time that a Maracyn treatment proceeded a major retreat of GDA. If I have to do this a third time, with the same results, I think we'll have a firm conclusion. But as of this point, I'm willing to call it a possible coincidence.


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## macclellan

Hi Scolley, I haven't followed your thread all the way, but glad to hear you've gotten the GDA managed if not beaten.



scolley said:


> I've been so focused on Discus and keeping the tank low maintenance


Remind me what about this tank is low maintanence?!?


----------



## territhemayor

macclellan said:


> Remind me what about this tank is low maintanence?!?


yeah, discus require a lot of maintenance. 
Would you go a week without a water change?


----------



## BiscuitSlayer

scolley said:


> PPS - And the Wisteria (Hygrophila difformis) is just kind of hanging in... slow growth, slow dieback of old lower leaves. This plant is just pretty much maintaining, unlike the Green Temple, Ludwigia, and Rotalla which seem to be thriving. Glad I had the presence of mind to select an assortment.


I'll bet the Wisteria explodes soon. I had the same thing happen with some wisteria that I bought, and after about 1 month, the growth really took off. It was like it had to go through some adjustment to my tank parameters or something.


----------



## travis

Steve, this is definitely one of the best threads I've ever read here on PT. I'm just now realizing that I've spent most of the night poring over the details of your amazing setup. You've done an incredible job with every aspect of this tank. Just looking at your photos of the fish and the aquascape shows how well it's paying off. Fantastic job.

I'm sorry but I had to laugh when you mentioned the issues you had with your OC canister leaking. I just set up a dual OC system (simple series plumbing) for a client and had the exact same issue with both canisters. This was my first time using OCs so, at my wit's end after trying to resolve the leaking problems with no luck, I called Ocean Clear hoping that they would have some advanced technical advice on how to fix things. I spoke to a woman named Pinkie who, after I gave her an exhaustive description of my problem and the lengths I had gone to to resolve it, told me that I just needed to whack them with a hammer to seal them. Problem solved. Unbelievably simple  

I've had GDA problems similar to yours in tanks I've set up that use MH lighting (both FW and SW), however I rarely have serious GDA issues in tanks with fluorescent lighting. Although my evidence is only anecdotal, I suspect that the more intense, focused nature of MH lamps contributes to the likelihood of GDA because it causes much more glare from the inner surfaces of the tank, making them a ripe target for algae. I've got a 125G planted tank with 2x250w MH lamps over it that requires regular cleaning to prevent a film of GDA from covering the glass. I also find this to be the case in many MH-driven reef tanks. 

I've recently had good luck in reducing the build-up of GDA in my planted tank by cutting back on trace/Fe dosing. My current theory is that excess micronutrients (iron is my primary suspect because I like to dose a lot of it), in the presence of very intense light, can lead to GDA problems. In the last two weeks I've cut back my trace/Fe dosing by 50% and have seen a considerable decrease in the amount of GDA on my glass. Again, I have no hard evidence that this is the case, but from my experience it's a strong possibility. It's possible that by adding all of those stem plants you did something similar, in that the fast-growing stem plants you added helped pull excess micros from the water and deprived the GDA of one of its primary drivers. And the additional filtration you've recently added definitely doesn't hurt.

It's also possible that Maracyn has had some effect on your GDA (and if that's the case I'm going to buy a bucket of the stuff), but I have my doubts. Maracyn is basically just erythromycin, an anti-biotic effective against some types of gram-negative bacteria. BGA (not actually an algae at all but a cyanobacteria) happens to be one of those gram-negative bacteria that is unusually susceptible to it. I would be surprised if erythromycin is as effective against true algae like GDA, although I could be completely wrong on that one.

In any case it's good to hear that things are looking up. I'll be following this thread closely from now on. But right now you've inspired me - I'm off to shop for Mazzei venturis


----------



## scolley

macclellan said:


> Remind me what about this tank is low maintanence?!?


Good question. Answer: Nothing since this algae took off. Before that was another matter though...

For most of the life of my tank, my maintenance regimen has as follows:

Daily
Feed Fish (much of that can be automated - I choose not to)

Weekly
30 minute algae clean and plant trim

Monthly
15 minute test of pH probe
30 sec check of water pressure

Every Two Months
30 minute mixing of new fert stock and refilling fert jugs

Quarterly
1 hour filter media change

Every Nine Months
30 minute change of DI carbon matrix filters

Annually
1 hour replacement of UV lamp
30 minute replacement of Halogen lamps
30 minute replacement of pH probe​

My regimen will get back to that soon enough. And IMO, that is pretty low maintenance for a 180g planted tank with 9 adult discus - probably approaching some kind of theoretical minimum, provided you strive to have a tank that also looks very attractive. If you lower your aesthetic standards, you could get away with less maintenance I'm sure.

And all that does not include one reality of this tank - on multiple occasions I have tinkered with my aquascape and plants around to find the optimal mix for what I'm trying to do. That has taken AT LEAST 20 hours work, twice in the 9-10 months I've this tank up. 

So, is it fair to look at the maintenance schedule above and say that is "THE" maintenance schedule for this tank? No. I continue to tinker with plant variations, and algae control. And that takes very significant amounts of additional time. Instead I would like to think of this a "usually" low maintenance tank... one slowly making its way to an "always" low maintenance planted discus tank.


----------



## scolley

travis said:


> Although my evidence is only anecdotal, I suspect that the more intense, focused nature of MH lamps contributes to the likelihood of GDA because it causes much more glare from the inner surfaces of the tank, making them a ripe target for algae. I've got a 125G planted tank with 2x250w MH lamps over it that requires regular cleaning to prevent a film of GDA from covering the glass. I also find this to be the case in many MH-driven reef tanks.


Thanks for the kind words Travis! And thanks for the info!

My tank is in a corner near windows on two sides. And for a few minutes each day actually gets direct morning sunlight. A bad thing I know. And I've watched this with great interest, trying to correlate it to that GDA growth areas, and cannot. But I can back you up and say it absolutely follows the halogen lights. Any place on the tank wall that has a halogen shadow gets markedly reduced algae. It's still there, but less.

And I find the Fe comment fascinating. My records indicate that I began dosing iron - separate from my micros, 1 week prior to my GDA explosion. This is a factor that I'm going to have to keep my eye on...

As for the Maracyn, the last time that worked, it was done in conjunction with shutting down ALL micro dosing for about 10 days. So even in that case, I was not changing a single factor. And this potentially lends credibility to your Fe observation. I'm REALLY going to have to keep my eye on that.

I too spoke to a woman at Red Sea, who gave me the same advice. And I too am an Ocean Clear, filter changin', hammer whacker. No other way to do it. That said, when I installed this second one last week, the little o-ringed air outlet on top had to be screwed down REALLY hard. Like with pliers - to keep it from leaking. I was afraid I was going to break it. Bottom line - I think they have some QA issues and tolerance issues with the manufacturing of those top pieces.


----------



## Hop

Just wanted to say that I love this picture and bring some color to this page of the thread









Glad to see you are still going strong!


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## scolley

Thanks Hop! I would not be doing this if it weren't for your Aquacontroller recommendation years ago. BEST investment in this hobby I ever made! :thumbsup: Thanks.

And in the interest of full disclosure, I had to go back to my maintenance schedule a couple of posts ago and add in DI filter and pH probe changes. Sorry.


----------



## Hop

scolley said:


> Thanks Hop! I would not be doing this if it weren't for your Aquacontroller recommendation years ago. BEST investment in this hobby I ever made! :thumbsup: Thanks.
> 
> And in the interest of full disclosure, I had to go back to my maintenance schedule a couple of posts ago and add in DI filter and pH probe changes. Sorry.


They are great! I'm hoping to move up from the Jr later this year to the III or pro... Not that I really need all that controllability, but I like the buttons 

The tank really is looking nice BTW!


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## scolley

*A Tale of Three Algaes*

In the pics below you can see the three algaes I'm battling: GDA, Thread, and some green algae on the sand.


*Thread Algae*
You can't really see the thread algae directly. There's not great gobs of it. But in these pics you can see many plants with large pearling bubbles around their leaf edges. That's the tread algae pearling. It's hard to see the aglae. But it's there.

As some of you will know, I had a tank once that had this stuff as a pestilence of biblical proportions. So it DOES scare me and get my attention. But I've come to understand it too. At least in my tanks. This stuff arrives in high light, high current, when PO4 approached 2.0.

Lately my tank has been ripping through Phosphate, with all the new stem plants I have growing. So I've been dosing to a bit above 2.0 to keep it from getting too low during the day. This next week I'm going to reduce my PO4 dosing just a bit, and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that this stuff will diminish. Or I could shut off my 2nd filter and pump combo. That would do it too. And finally, I can reduce my photoperiod. Bottom line, I've go options. I'm going to try the PO4 reduction first.



*Green Algae on the Sand*
I don't know what this stuff is. I've gotten it multiple times on this tank, and have been watching it closely. It has a BGA look to it once it get's going like in the pic below. Except that it's not blueish. The first time I saw it I hit it with Maracyn, and absolutely nothing happened to it so I manually removed it - siphon off affected sand, chlorox soak sand, rinse and return sand to tank. When in came back, I tried a higher dose of Maracyn. Seemed to make my GDA go away, but had no effect on this stuff.

I've noticed that when it starts - a few weeks after a manual cleaning - it starts by greening up large chunks of sand. Not the little normal sand grains mind you, but only on bigger stuff. In particular, I've got power sand that has worked it's way to the surface, and it ALWAYS hits that stuff first. Then the big sand grains, and finally spreads to normal sand grains.

It only grows on sand, where light hits it. Does not seem to spread to plants. So IMO it's one of the "silica" loving algaes - as is the thread alga I mentioned previously. Never had either in a tank without sand.

And BTW, it's already gone. Did another manual removal this morning. What a PITA. It will say away for a month or two. I just wish it would STAY gone. I gather heavy dosing of Excel can do it. But that's going to have to wait until I get the other algae taken care of. Don't want to change too many variables at once (again).



*Green Dust Algae (GDA)*
Boy, is this stuff my nemisis. Without this, my tank really would be low maintenance. But this stuff is like the freaking Energizer bunny, it just keeps going. Or maybe like Jason from Halloween, it keeps coming back. Doesn't matter what I do it seems.

If you've been following this thread you know that I recently made a number of changes that had an immediate and significant difference in this stuff. But now it's back. Not as bad as it had been before the recent changes, but bad enough. You can see 4 days worth in the pictures. So what has changed?

As I mentioned, I've increased my phosphates a bit. But kind of doubt that's it.

I stopped that Maracyn dosing. That could very well be it... the Maracyn knocked it back, and it just took awhile to get really cranking again.

The stem plants that were supposed to help don't seem to have made a difference. They have all doubled in size since I got them a couple of weeks ago. In one pic you can see the Rotalla wallichii pearling its brains out. It's hilarious how much pearling these plants are doing. All the stems are growing nicely. But they definately are not helping the GDA. At the rate they are growing in 3-4 weeks there will be no place for the discus to swim. It is officially a heavily planted tank now. And the GDA persists.

The only other stuff I changed recently - before the GDA receeded - was changes in my filtration. And that has not changed, but now it's back.

So it's looking like it must have been the Maracny that made the difference. But that stuff cost mucho denaro for a 180, so I'm going to try Travis' suggestion of reducing iron dosing. I'll going to stop my daily supplimental ECA (ADA Fe drops) dosing for a week, and see it that helps. If not, I'm going to try the Maracyn again. Not because I think that is a long term solution - I don't. But I am curious to know conclusively if that is what has caused it to temporarily receed for me (twice now).














As always, you can click these pics to get a close up if you need to see the scary algae up close.


----------



## lauraleellbp

Have you considered fert tabs or making fert balls out of Laterite as an iron source instead of dosing iron?

Algae or no- the tank looks amazing!!! :biggrin:


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## scolley

Thanks Laura, but I assume you mean using that as a type of root ball. If so, sounds like a great way to keep iron out of your water column. But, that would be a bit tough in this tank. The substrate is all sand, with no plants in it. All the plants are in shallow pots of Aquasoil, covered with sand. I COULD cram some root balls into the pots. But it would be tricky, as I try REAL hard not to disturb the soil under the sand (AS wants to rise above the sand - like big kernals of popcorn in a bag - same principal, big bits come to the top).

BUT if it turns out that the Fe reduction makes a big difference, it would DEFINATELY be worth the trouble, because regular tank wall scraping is a major PITA and time sink.

So, just in case... how do you keep those laterite balls together? What binds them?

Thanks.


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## lauraleellbp

I haven't actually made any Laterite balls... yet... I'm debating if I want to use Laterite as a substrate underlayer or try to make balls? I'll have tons of swords in my tank, so I'll need iron, but I'm doing my best to have to minimize my fert dosing; low light setup for me. I'm going to run a search now and see if there's anything on the forum, actually... I'll post you the thread if I find anything good...


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## lauraleellbp

This thread has some promising ideas; I like the Laterite ice cubes so far, personally! http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/substrate/49190-adding-laterite-existing-tank.html

Similar thread- looks like the source of the ideas in the other: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/substrate/44916-can-i-should-i-add-laterite.html


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## BiscuitSlayer

scolley -

I know you aren't a proponent of boosting CO2 as an algaecide, but the one time I had GDA woes as you do, I boosted my CO2 a bit and it disappeared almost overnight. I have kept my CO2 levels at that rate ever since, and my flora and fauna are doing better than excellent at this time. I consider my setup to be at the higher end of the spectrum with regards to light output, tank depth, etc. Since light is the driving factor, I thought maybe I was a tad deficient in the CO2 department.

I am not suggesting you do the same. I am merely sharing my experience. GDA was a pretty severe issue with me with respect to algae problems. Now it is a thing of the past (except for weekly minor cleanings right before the water change).


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## scolley

lauraleellbp said:


> I'll have tons of swords in my tank, so I'll need iron...


Thanks for the links Laura! I've got swords too, and frankly they are sucking wind. They have been moved to a place where they get little light, and they don't get NEAR enough Fe. But I've been afraid to put too much in the water column. Maybe your links will direct me to how to make those lovely larterite balls! (Haven't checked yet...) But FWIW, to date, while the tank was small, the BEST substrate I have used thus far in my few planted-tank-years is laterite. Or at least that's how it worked out for me.



BiscuitSlayer said:


> I know you aren't a proponent of boosting CO2 as an algaecide, but the one time I had GDA woes as you do, I boosted my CO2 a bit and it disappeared almost overnight.


Well, you've clearly read my rants about using CO2 for purposes other than feeding plants. It's a little like a UV... IMO if you are using one just to suppress green water, you are avoiding addressing the real problem. Same with overdosing with CO2.

However, that postion is philosophical, not practical. Right now I've got a major GDA problem. If increased CO2 can make it go away and stay away, that sounds nice. The question is... do I to keep it elevated? And if so, how high?

I have a couple of Bamboo (Wood) shrimp that I KNOW from foolish experience have a real problem with 40+ ppm CO2. I've killed them before with that. So, how high does it need to be to get GDA under control? And how high do you need to keep it?

Thanks for the help folks. Really. :icon_wink


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## lauraleellbp

Just from what I've read (since I run only low tech tanks) 20-30ppm CO2 seems about average in high light tanks?


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## BiscuitSlayer

Read them? I use them as a guidelines and starting points! Your philosophies are taken to heart by me when I start researching issues to address problems. I definitely do not want you to overdose CO2.

What I am suggesting is that because of your higher light output from the MH pendants, I feel like you might be injecting CO2 possibly on the lower side of the recommended PPM. I think that there is a direct relationship between light intensity and CO2 injection. When you have a tremendous amount of light penetrating the tank such as yours and mine, I feel that it sometimes warrant injecting CO2 at slightly higher levels to keep things balanced.

If I were going to tweak the CO2 as a possible remedy to the situation, I would do it alone without making any other changes to the system/setup/parameters. I would make the changes in very small increments as to not throw the entire system out of balance. I would also let a minor change go for a week before assessing the impact. If I did start to see results, I would probably back off of the tweaking and possibly even go in a lower direction to see if I could manipulate the algae and get it to become worse again. Based on what I have seen with my own personal setup, the results can be clearly seen in a relatively short period of time. If you are at 20 PPM of CO2 right now with the GDA, then maybe 25 PPM is an optimal rate to keep things balanced out.


----------



## scolley

lauraleellbp said:


> Just from what I've read (since I run only low tech tanks) 20-30ppm CO2 seems about average in high light tanks?


Thanks. I run 25+, that's why I'm asking. 20 is clearly enough for plant health. And with a venturi diffusing the CO2, with a controller turning the CO2 solenoid on/off, I can sustain ANY practical level... need 75 ppm? Can do, no problem.

The question is... how high does it need to be to be an effective algaecide?


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## lauraleellbp

Are you sure that it's really acting as an algaecide, or just helping the more efficient plants out-compete algae? (I think I've been reading too many Tom Barr threads... I've got CO2/photosynthesis limitation on the brain LOL)

I'd bump it up to 30ppm and see what happens, personally. That or permanently decrease the wattage (the last is really what I'd do- but that's my low-light bias coming through  )


----------



## BiscuitSlayer

scolley said:


> Thanks. I run 25+, that's why I'm asking. 20 is clearly enough for plant health. And with a venturi diffusing the CO2, with a controller turning the CO2 solenoid on/off, I can sustain ANY practical level... need 75 ppm? Can do, no problem.
> 
> The question is... how high does it need to be to be an effective algaecide?


Ouch! I was hoping you were running less than 25 ppm. Obviously you don't have too much room to move here. If you did adjust, I wouldn't go any higher than 30 ppm, and that might be pushing it as it is.

Where is Tom when you need him?


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## lauraleellbp

BiscuitSlayer said:


> Where is Tom when you need him?


I dunno but he's overdue with planting pics for that gorgeous 180gal project of his...

I've been thinking some more about your pots/laterite ball issue... I bet you could make Laterite spikes instead of balls. That shape should be easier to push into a pot. Laterite isn't like Jobes fert spikes; from my research, Laterite shouldn't leach iron into the water, just be available to the plants through the roots.


----------



## scolley

*A Tale of Three Algaes - continued*

Well, it was an interesting week. But not for any good reasons...

This week was the reduced Fe test. Six days ago I did close to a 90% water change to get any excess Fe out of the water. Then I resumed normal dosing except for two things. I eliminated my Fe dosing. And I reduced my Phosphate target from 2.0 ppm to about 1.4 ppm.


*Thread algae*
Just like I have demonstrated to myself on multiple occasions, this stuff is linked to phosphates in the 1.8 range (with fast moving water and high light). I didn't change the lights or water speed, yet it is almost gone. Definitely way diminished. Technically it could be the iron reduction. But I don't think so - seen it with the phosphate too many times.


*Green algae on the sand*
Experience with this tank has me skimming sand, chlorox'ing it, and putting it back, with the algae staying away for a month or two. Well this time I skimmed the top stuff off, and chlorox'ed it. But I didn't put it back. And now - wouldn't you know - it's starting to come back. I think it was a mistake to not put the cleaned sand back. I'll wager that this when I siphon off the top layer of sand some falls back. But when it's covered up soon with an inch of clean sand, it can't reproduce. But this time I didn't replace the sand, so it spread. Bummer.

Well, I can fix that pretty easily this weekend.


*Green Dust Algae (GDA)*
Boy! Is this stuff persistent. With no added iron for 6 days, it came on strong. I took pictures, but I'm too lazy to put them up. Trust me though, it got bad.

So not adding supplemental Fe did not matter. Maybe (if Travis is right) I've got to go the next step, and reduce micros. I'm using TMG, so it's got a reasonable iron content in it. So last week was far from iron free. But on the other hand, I'm not going to eliminate micros either.

But just because it seemed to work for Travis, I think I'll do another 90% water change, and reduce my micros by 75%. Not for more than a week - don't want to hurt the plants. But it will be an interesting test.



I'm getting sick of this GDA. The other stuff is just a nuisance. But the GDA is getting me down. Tank looks like crap half the time, and it takes work every week to scrape it off. A 180 is too big for that.

Bert H is doing is own test of Maracyn for GDA, to see if he sees the same thing I did. So I'm anxious to see his results. And if this next week of micro/Fe reduction doesn't make a clearly visible difference, I'm going to try Maracyn a third time. And if it works, I'll tinker with periodic small doses to see if that can keep it from returning.

And if it turn out that Maracyn DOESN'T make a difference... as conventional wisdom would indicate. Then I have to go pour over my noted to see what else I might have done that caused it to greatly diminish those two times I did the Maracyn dosing. There's an answer in there somewhere, if I can just tease it out...



PS - I'm running out of room for the discus to swim with all the stem plants growing. Soon I think I'll be able to demonstrate conclusively that having a tank full of healthy growing plants is not the solution to GDA. Sorry Buck. Sounded like a good idea though.


----------



## original kuhli

How are you cleaning your sand? Do you have any snails or critters that dig in it?


----------



## scolley

original kuhli said:


> How are you cleaning your sand?


Siphon out. Soak in Chlorox. Rinse. Pour back in.



original kuhli said:


> How are you cleaning your sand? Do you have any snails or critters that dig in it?


Nope. And definitely "Nope" after the Chlorox.


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## khoile

Hi Steve,

Can you remind me what peristaltic pump did you get? Also how much fert are you adding to your tank daily? I'm trying to size my peristaltic pump.

Thanks.
Khoi


----------



## original kuhli

*Chlorox on the sand*

A couple thoughts:

Is it possible that the Chlorox wash is breaking down the sand and encouraging significant amounts of silicate to leach into the water and causing your troubles? 

Also, those critters(the bugs that aren't there) in the sand might help in getting some balance into the situation.


----------



## scolley

original kuhli said:


> A couple thoughts:
> 
> Is it possible that the Chlorox wash is breaking down the sand and encouraging significant amounts of silicate to leach into the water and causing your troubles?
> 
> Also, those critters(the bugs that aren't there) in the sand might help in getting some balance into the situation.


While both things you mention are possible, it's important to note that I've only cleaned the sand twice. And the first time was in response to the algae on it. So cleaning it did not start the problems. Not sure if it is making it worse though. But I suspect not.




khoile said:


> Hi Steve,
> 
> Can you remind me what peristaltic pump did you get? Also how much fert are you adding to your tank daily? I'm trying to size my peristaltic pump.
> 
> Thanks.
> Khoi


Man, this is a topic I'm passionate about. I've got three types of fert pump; Aquamedics, Mityflex sold by AquaticEcoSystems.com, and a DP1-DT from AutomatedAquariums.com. The Aquamedic are all plastic and junk IMO. The Mityflex is much sturdier, but waaay to expensive and very noisy. But the little pumps from AutomatedAquariums.com are just right. And they come in a number of flow rates.

And FWIW, you can see on this page, these are virtually identical to some of the pumps advocated by other people here, just a bit more expensive. But I get them from AutomatedAquariums because they package them in these nice boxes.

IMO don't waste your time with variable flow pumps. You want to buy it according to the flow rate you need, install it, benchmark the flow after it is installed, and then you can always plan on that rate - adjusting timing as needed. Doing guesswork over speed on the variable flow pumps is nuts IMO.

As far as flow goes... I need about 3.5 ml/minute for my K2SO4 stock, but generally between 0.5 and 0.75 ml/minute works well for micros. For KNO3 and KH2PO4 solutions I think you are best off at around 1.0 ml/minute. All of these will have you dosing between 5 and 60 minutes a day... depending on your uptake rates. But they give you an nice granularity - easy to nudge the timing up or down a bit as needed. If you get something that flows too fast, you wind up with something that a 1 minute increase or decrease is too much or too little.

Also, be sure and not buy anything with 1/32" tubing connections. Too tough to adapt to airline hoses (which I use for long runs to the fert injection point).


----------



## srud

scolley said:


> While both things you mention are possible, it's important to note that I've only cleaned the sand twice. And the first time was in response to the algae on it. So cleaning it did not start the problems. Not sure if it is making it worse though. But I suspect not.
> 
> 
> 
> Man, this is a topic I'm passionate about. I've got three types of fert pump; Aquamedics, Mityflex sold by AquaticEcoSystems.com, and a DP1-DT from AutomatedAquariums.com. The Aquamedic are all plastic and junk IMO. The Mityflex is much sturdier, but waaay to expensive and very noisy. But the little pumps from AutomatedAquariums.com are just right. And they come in a number of flow rates.
> 
> And FWIW, you can see on this page, these are virtually identical to some of the pumps advocated by other people here, just a bit more expensive. But I get them from AutomatedAquariums because they package them in these nice boxes.
> 
> IMO don't waste your time with variable flow pumps. You want to buy it according to the flow rate you need, install it, benchmark the flow after it is installed, and then you can always plan on that rate - adjusting timing as needed. Doing guesswork over speed on the variable flow pumps is nuts IMO.
> 
> As far as flow goes... I need about 3.5 ml/minute for my K2SO4 stock, but generally between 0.5 and 0.75 ml/minute works well for micros. For KNO3 and KH2PO4 solutions I think you are best off at around 1.0 ml/minute. All of these will have you dosing between 5 and 60 minutes a day... depending on your uptake rates. But they give you an nice granularity - easy to nudge the timing up or down a bit as needed. If you get something that flows too fast, you wind up with something that a 1 minute increase or decrease is too much or too little.
> 
> Also, be sure and not buy anything with 1/32" tubing connections. Too tough to adapt to airline hoses (which I use for long runs to the fert injection point).


Thanks Steve! So are you dosing N, P, K and Micros all seperately now? Reading back in this thread it appeared that you were dosing just Macros (I assumed in one solution) and Micros, so only two Peristaltic pumps required.


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## travis

Steve, I'm curious about the psi needed to inject ferts into your pressurized return line. Do the peristaltic pumps provide all the pressure necessary?


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## scolley

srud said:


> Reading back in this thread it appeared that you were dosing just Macros (I assumed in one solution) and Micros, so only two Peristaltic pumps required.


Actually this is a bit of unfinished business in my stand. I listed the flowrates previously because khoile is building an awesome high-tech tank and needed estimates. But indeed, I only have two pumps hooked up at the moment. One for micros, one for Potassium stock. When I first set the tank up, that should have been all I needed. That was under the assumption that my lightly planted anubias and moss would survive on the levels or Nitrates and Phoshpate in my tap water - it's high. But with all the plants I have now, they are ripping through stuff pretty quickly so I'm having to dose those two manually.

Granted, having all these stem plants was supposed to be just a temporary algae fighting tactic. But this is taking so long, I'm sick of dosing, and am going to hook up some more pumps. Good catch!




travis said:


> Steve, I'm curious about the psi needed to inject ferts into your pressurized return line. Do the peristaltic pumps provide all the pressure necessary?


Great question! The line I'm injecting to is currently running a pressure of 6 PSI. I know that from the gauge on my OC filter. And where my fert lines (air line hose) connects to the PVC of my filter lines are some of Rex Grigg's lovely little brass check valves. I got him to sell them to me with a barb on one end (for the airline) and a 10-32 threaded male connection on the other end, so I can screw it into my plumbing for a nice secure connection. Would hate to drain the tank because of an airline popping off. :hihi: 

Anyway... those little brass check valves require a good bit of pressure to get them to open. I don't know how much, but trying to blow through one makes my face turn purple. They require a good bit of pressure. So between the pressure to open the check valve, and the 5+ (as high as 10) psi in my lines, the fert pumps have to overcome a lot of pressure.

I was worried about that myself when I first set up the tank. So I filled one fert jug just with water and timed how long it took to pump a measured dose of water - you know, like 20 hours to pump a liter or something. I don't recall the math or the exact timing, but the bottom line was it was that it pumped at exactly the same rate as my benchmark that I had timed the pump at when it was not hooked up to the water lines.

I was pretty impressed. I guess the technology behind peristaltic pumps is pretty accurate and tough.

Long answer to a short question. Sorry I should have just said...

"Yes" :icon_wink


----------



## Buck

scolley said:


> PS - I'm running out of room for the discus to swim with all the stem plants growing. Soon I think I'll be able to demonstrate conclusively that having a tank full of healthy growing plants is not the solution to GDA. Sorry Buck. Sounded like a good idea though.


Steve if that aint gettin't done then I would tend to assume that you are way overdosing the micro's. 
I was running into an algae fest like you are when I upped my micro dosing. In its place now I do smaller , more frequent water changes (maybe 10%) and it seems to be helping. I only do a 50% w/c every third week. I dose a minimal amount of micro's only if I am too busy to do the water change. I have been micro free for 3 weeks now and the plants havent suffered, only the algae. Im hoping this is a good trend for my tank.

Have you tried cutting way back on the micro's?


----------



## Pyt

scolley said:


> I was worried about that myself when I first set up the tank. So I filled one fert jug just with water and timed how long it took to pump a measured dose of water - you know, like 20 hours to pump a liter or something. I don't recall the math or the exact timing, but the bottom line was it was that it pumped at exactly the same rate as my benchmark that I had timed the pump at when it was not hooked up to the water lines.
> 
> I was pretty impressed. I guess the technology behind peristaltic pumps is pretty accurate and tough.
> 
> Long answer to a short question. Sorry I should have just said...
> 
> "Yes" :icon_wink


Thanks Steve 

This was just what I needed to hear. 

I am researching automated fert injection, and I have a lot of static pressure to overcome, due to my tank being quite high above the floor.

Btw, did you test all you peristaltic pumps, or just the ones you are using from AutomatedAquariums.com?
We fellows from “the other side” might not be able to get the same stuff that all of you are using 

/Jens


----------



## scolley

Buck said:


> Have you tried cutting way back on the micro's?


No I haven't Buck. Thanks for the suggestion.

But I think my reason is solid... I've had this GDA problem since before my micros were at this current level. And as I increased them I saw improvements in my plants, but no real change in the GDA. So my immediate response is to assume the micros are not the problem.

That said, I believe it was Travis that indicated that he saw a GDA decrease upon reduction of Fe and/or micros. I've backed off on my Fe, and it seems to be helping... nothing dramatic, nor conclusive enough that I'm willing to take a stand on. But it SEEMS to have helped. Maybe backing off on micros in general will help too.

As for the water changes... I'm doing several small water changes automatically every day. The net effect is a 50% w/c every three days (if my Excel spreadsheet calcs are correct. :redface: ). So I don't think that's it.

I'm just guessing here... I'm no expert. But IMO I think my lights present the tank a challenge - the halogens are wicked bright to those plants close by, and not bright enough to those at a distance. 
Florescents do a much better job of spreading light evenly. So these are either making plants too close prone to algae, and those far away suffering from too little light.

And all that is complicated by a tank that has WAY too high a fish load, that I'm trying to over compensate by doing the equivalent of a 50% w/c every three days, except for the fact that my tap water is loaded with nitrates and phosphate to begin with.

And oh, did I forget to mention the silicates that my sand substrate kick up to feed those algaes that love silica so much?

But that sounds like whining. Sorry. I made my bed, now I have to figure out how to sleep in it. :hihi: 



Pyt said:


> Btw, did you test all you peristaltic pumps, or just the ones you are using from AutomatedAquariums.com?
> We fellows from “the other side” might not be able to get the same stuff that all of you are using
> 
> /Jens


Jens, I wish I could say that I tested them all. Good question. I only tested the AutomatedAquarium.com product that I linked too earlier. IMO the Aquamedic pump - which I know IS available on your side of the pond - is garbage frankly, and not even worth wasting time with. I need 2 more pumps and I'm not even considering using my Aquamedics... they'll stay in the spare parts pile in case of an emergency.

The big Aquaticecosystems.com pump that I also did not test was because it is frankly WAY overbuilt for the home enthusiast. If you look in their catalogue and see their prices, you can see that much of their stuff is industrial strength. That's why I didn't test this one. If you could see it yourself, you would see that this expensive monster could pump glass marble through rock. It's powerful.

So no, I only tested the one product. But that is because there was one I won't even use, and the other is so clearly superior. I tested the weakest link that I was willing to install in my stand.


----------



## Pyt

scolley said:


> I'm just guessing here... I'm no expert. But IMO I think my lights present the tank a challenge - the halogens are wicked bright to those plants close by, and not bright enough to those at a distance.
> Florescents do a much better job of spreading light evenly. So these are either making plants too close prone to algae, and those far away suffering from too little light.


Have you thought about using your lights to your advantage? Here I'm thinking plant-wise. 

What if you were to place your plants in areas where the light intensity was actually to their liking? Might that negate the low spread your lights have, and also possible help with your algae problem?



scolley said:


> Jens, I wish I could say that I tested them all. Good question. I only tested the AutomatedAquarium.com product that I linked too earlier. IMO the Aquamedic pump - which I know IS available on your side of the pond - is garbage frankly, and not even worth wasting time with. I need 2 more pumps and I'm not even considering using my Aquamedics... they'll stay in the spare parts pile in case of an emergency.


Aquamedic is available over here yes, but I’m somewhat partial to doing it right the first time. Meaning, why buy a pump someone else has looked at, and found wanting.

I’m looking into buying a whole set of automation controls. Unfortunately the AquaController from Neptune Systems is not available for 220V with the controllable sockets. I can get the computer, but not the sockets.

An alternative would be the Profilux II from GHL, they have their own dosing pump, and also sockets available for 220V. 
I know people here have used them, and with good results. I’m just irked about the fact that it doesn’t have LAN interface, unless you buy an expansion card.

Anyway, I don’t want to hijack your thread with questions for my own use. I’ll start my own for that 

I love what you have done with your tank, and especially the automation part of it. I’m getting there, but I’m taking baby steps 

/Jens


----------



## Steve Kelly

> scolley said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please let me know if that bleach and pressure wash works for you Steve. Bleaching and using a normal hose did squat for me.
> 
> 
> 
> Steve,
> 
> After bleaching and then pressure washing my 25-micron cartridge with a 3,000 psi, gas powered pressure washer , I did keep the fan nozzle a few inches from the cartridge so as not to destroy it , the cleaned filter cartridge started out at 3.5 psi which is the initial run pressure of a new 25-micron pleated cartridge on my system.
> 
> The washed cartridge lasted about 10 days before the pressure started to creep up to near 5 psi. My pump, an original Lifegard QuietOne, shuts off at about 6.5 psi. I start to see significant flow drop at 5 psi.
> 
> From my limited experience with the Ocean Clear / Nu-Clear pressurized type filters, I have come to the conclusion that a high-head pump is required to make these types of filters perform at their best. Specifically, the Poseidon PS2 or PS3 (21~24-ft head) or one of the Iwaki WMD-40Rs (21-ft head). I believe Plantbrain is going to use the Iwaki on his new 180.
> 
> Based on my calcs from the performance curves available for the above pumps, one should see flow rates and pressures as follows:
> 
> QuietOne----240 gph----10' head---- 4.3 psi
> PS1 --------240 gph----17' head-----7.3 psi
> PS2---------240 gph----22' head-----9.75 psi
> PS3---------240 gph----24' head-----10.4 psi
> WMD-40R----240 gph----21' head-----9.1 psi
> 
> If it wasn't for the potential of the Poseidon pumps raising the tank water temp 4~6 degrees, I would have already replaced my QuietOne with a Poseidon PS2. I wish there was more data available about the water temperature increasing issue with the Poseidons.
> 
> 
> 
> scolley said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you are right about the cartridges interchangability. I've got a 2nd OC340 that I've been ready to install - replacing the Eheim Pro II. But I've ordered the foam inserts for an OC 318 because it's got 200+ sf. ft. of biological media vs. the 30 or 40 in the OC 340. I don't really need any more mechanical filtering - don't think so anyway.
> 
> So I'm hoping to find this stuff is really interchangable. Thanks for the tip!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Ocean Clear Polystrand filter pads can be used in the Inland Seas / Nu-Clear canister filters as long as you buy one of the 'Full Flow' grids for the Nu-Clear -- $14. I believe that the OC 25-micron 40 sq.ft. pleated cartridge should also work just fine in the Nu-Clear.
> 
> I recently ordered one each of the OC 317, 318 and 319 filter replacement pad sets and have had good results with the OC *318* 50-micron pads combined with my less than perfect pump. They do a nice job of keeping the water clear and should be much easier to clean than the pleated cartridges.
> 
> Reference:
> 
> OC 317 pad set http://www.aquarium-supply.biz/Ocean_Clear_317_Filter_Pad_Set_p/roc82317.htm
> 
> OC 318 pad set http://www.aquarium-supply.biz/318_Pad_Set_p/roc82318.htm
> 
> OC 319 pad set http://www.aquarium-supply.biz/319_Pad_Set_p/roc82319.htm
> 
> 
> Steve
Click to expand...


----------



## scolley

Pyt said:


> What if you were to place your plants in areas where the light intensity was actually to their liking? Might that negate the low spread your lights have, and also possible help with your algae problem?


I'm doing that to a limited extent now Jens. Or trying to anyway. Thanks.




Pyt said:


> Aquamedic is available over here yes, but I’m somewhat partial to doing it right the first time. Meaning, why buy a pump someone else has looked at, and found wanting.


Maybe I'm being too hard on Aquamedic. Here's the facts...

Aquamedic has nice terminations on the pumps making it very easy to attach tubing. Much better than anything else I've seen. But all peristaltic pumps have a little cog that rotates in the middle of a loop of tubing. The cog has rollers that pushes fluid through the tubing. In all of the pumps I've seen this cog is a combination of hard plastic and metal. Aquamedic though uses a very hard, but think plastic for this cog. It's brittle and breaks. The problem is clearly so bad that they have to offer it as a replacement part. Everyone else offers replacement tubing. They have to, the tubing goes bad after a few years. But Aquamedic is the only one that has to offer replacement parts. Why? Because they break due to cheap plastic construction.

Good luck with the Profilux! Too bad you can't get the DC8 there.  




Steve Kelly said:


> From my limited experience with the Ocean Clear / Nu-Clear pressurized type filters, I have come to the conclusion that a high-head pump is required to make these types of filters perform at their best.


I've got to agree, and disagree, Steve. I find that even my brand new cartridges that they start out somewhere around 3 psi, and climb to 5 within a few months, and with 3 or 4 months are at 7 and climbing. My Poseidon cuts out at about 10 psi, with flow really diminishing once it hits 8.

Assuming that a "high head" pump is what is otherwise referred to as "pressure rated" pumps, I'm in full agreement. But unless I'm missing something, the Poseidon PS1 and PS3 are their pressure rated pumps, not the 2 or 4.



Steve Kelly said:


> If it wasn't for the potential of the Poseidon pumps raising the tank water temp 4~6 degrees, I would have already replaced my QuietOne with a Poseidon PS2. I wish there was more data available about the water temperature increasing issue with the Poseidons.


Well here's some anecdotal, not proven, information.

Here's a Poseidon.
And here's a Velocity.
They look the same. Right? Same specs I believe.

Well my first pump is a Poseidon PS1. And for my 2nd pump I bought a Velocity T1. Should be the same. In person they look the same.

Well, that T1 definitely adds heat. I've been battling that since I installed it. During the day I only let it run 15 minutes out of every hour. Otherwise the tank warms up.

Now, it's entirely possible that the PS1 is really heating the tank up, and that the T1 is just the straw that broke the camel's back. But I'm not so sure. I know that the PS1 is adding some heat. But he T1 seems to be adding more. I'm not sure what the difference is, but I suspect there is one. And it could well be that the Velocity's propensity to add heat has given the Poseidon's a bad rap because everyone thinks they are the same.

I can't prove the Velocity is adding more heat. Would love to do an experiment. It's easily done... turn off the heaters, lights, UV and pumps, let the tank chill to ambient temperature, then turn on one pump. Wait for the temp to peak, and measure the difference between tank temp and ambient temp. Then repeat the whole process with the other pump.

But right now in Connecticut ambient temp is a bit cool. I'll have to wait until it warms up.




Steve Kelly said:


> I recently ordered one each of the OC 317, 318 and 319 filter replacement pad sets and have had good results with the OC *318* 50-micron pads combined with my less than perfect pump. They do a nice job of keeping the water clear and should be much easier to clean than the pleated cartridges.


Thanks for the info Steve. It is that 318 set that I got too. But haven't used it.

In principle the a 318 and 340 should be used in series, in that order. But since I have two separate filtration paths, they run parallel, and the 340 - which should be primarily polishing - is also doing normal mechanical filtration. So it doesn't last nearly as long without maintenance as it otherwise might. That was a design compromise that I accepted up front.

So in my own situation, the 318s may be easier to clean. And the 318s may go longer between cleanings. And they definitely have a much larger biofilter capacity. But they can't filter any better than the 340. So as long as I believe my biofilter is sufficient (as I do now), I'm going to opt for the higher level of filtration over ease of maintenance and potentially reduced cost.

But I'm glad to hear that the 318 looks like a good option. Thanks! I'll keep those spare filters handy!


----------



## digthemlows

How is the tank doing btw. It's been about a month, is the algae still giving you hell?


----------



## Steve Kelly

scolley said:


> I've got to agree, and disagree, Steve. I find that even my brand new cartridges that they start out somewhere around 3 psi, and climb to 5 within a few months, and with 3 or 4 months are at 7 and climbing. My Poseidon cuts out at about 10 psi, with flow really diminishing once it hits 8.
> 
> Assuming that a "high head" pump is what is otherwise referred to as "pressure rated" pumps, I'm in full agreement. But unless I'm missing something, the Poseidon PS1 and PS3 are their pressure rated pumps, not the 2 or 4.


You're getting much longer life out of your pleated cartridge than I am. No doubt this is _mostly_ due to the QuietOne pump I'm using which has a much lower cut-off head than your PS1. With a new cartridge and no disturbing of the substrate in my 90-gal by moving plants or re-scaping, the 25 micron might last one month before it has to be cleaned/replaced. And of course after being bleached and cleaned with a high power pressure washer it will only last about 10 days before needing to be cleaned again. Not very cost effective or fun.

*Click Here* for the complete spec sheet on the Poseidon pumps.

-- Poseidon pump Flow vs. Pressure chart from the spec sheet --













scolley said:


> Well here's some anecdotal, not proven, information.
> 
> Here's a Poseidon.
> And here's a Velocity.
> They look the same. Right? Same specs I believe.
> 
> Well my first pump is a Poseidon PS1. And for my 2nd pump I bought a Velocity T1. Should be the same. In person they look the same.
> 
> Well, that T1 definitely adds heat. I've been battling that since I installed it. During the day I only let it run 15 minutes out of every hour. Otherwise the tank warms up.
> 
> Now, it's entirely possible that the PS1 is really heating the tank up, and that the T1 is just the straw that broke the camel's back. But I'm not so sure. I know that the PS1 is adding some heat. But he T1 seems to be adding more. I'm not sure what the difference is, but I suspect there is one. And it could well be that the Velocity's propensity to add heat has given the Poseidon's a bad rap because everyone thinks they are the same.
> 
> I can't prove the Velocity is adding more heat. Would love to do an experiment. It's easily done... turn off the heaters, lights, UV and pumps, let the tank chill to ambient temperature, then turn on one pump. Wait for the temp to peak, and measure the difference between tank temp and ambient temp. Then repeat the whole process with the other pump.
> 
> But right now in Connecticut ambient temp is a bit cool. I'll have to wait until it warms up.


The heat issue is a major factor for me because my tank is in a room that stays near 77~78 degrees during the day and maybe drops to the upper 60s at night. The water temp is usually between 78~80 deg F most of the time. Adding a pump that could potentially raise it another 4~6 degrees would be a kiss-of-death without adding a chiller.

Your proposed experiment to measure the rise in water temp caused by the Poseidon PS1 and/or Velocity T1 would provide excellent info for anyone considering using one or the other in a pressurized cannister setup.



scolley said:


> Thanks for the info Steve. It is that 318 set that I got too. But haven't used it.
> 
> In principle the a 318 and 340 should be used in series, in that order. But since I have two separate filtration paths, they run parallel, and the 340 - which should be primarily polishing - is also doing normal mechanical filtration. So it doesn't last nearly as long without maintenance as it otherwise might. That was a design compromise that I accepted up front.
> 
> So in my own situation, the 318s may be easier to clean. And the 318s may go longer between cleanings. And they definitely have a much larger biofilter capacity. But they can't filter any better than the 340. So as long as I believe my biofilter is sufficient (as I do now), I'm going to opt for the higher level of filtration over ease of maintenance and potentially reduced cost.
> 
> But I'm glad to hear that the 318 looks like a good option. Thanks! I'll keep those spare filters handy!



With all of the other plumbing and electrical equipment housed in the stand on my 90, there just wasn't enough room to accommodate a second cannister filter. Time for a bigger tank  With the 318 media in my cannister, it was about 3 weeks before the water started looking fairly well polished -- not quite at the level of the micron cart yet though.

Your ability to run two filter paths with different media is a definite plus. It should really extend the period between cleaning/replacement of the media.


Really appreciate all of your feedback on the pumps and filters.

Steve


----------



## scolley

Steve Kelly said:


> *Click Here* for the complete spec sheet on the Poseidon pumps.
> 
> -- Poseidon pump Flow vs. Pressure chart from the spec sheet --


Steve, I assume that your only posting this spec sheet was a nice way of only indirectly pointing out that I'm wrong. Thanks. That was kind of you.

But I NEVER want to be responsible for passing along bad info. So to ANYONE reading my posts, if I'm wrong, and you think you know it. PLEASE say so directly. I'm posting to disseminate good information, nothing else.

However, I don't think I'm wrong. Here's why...

Your chart shows a spec sheet from some "Bayside Aquarium Supply". I've got that same sheet. It came with my Poseidon, but was only a poor quality (really poor) photocopy. The key to which pump is with in the graph is not legible. But I can see it in your link. The high pressure pumps appear to be the PS2 and PS3. But I don't think that's right. I think the PS1 and PS3 are pressure rated, and that Bayside got it wrong.

I don't know who "Bayside" is, but it's looking like they are rebranding the Velocity pumps as Poseidon. That, of course implies that my T1 and PS1 contribute the same amount of heat, but that's a different discussion. I say rebranding because they did such a poor job on the "instructions" they sent with my PS1, and because I got a nearly identical set of instructions with my Velocity T1. But they are not photocopied, and they have all the exact same information EXCEPT they do not have that graph. And that graph conflicts with all other available info that I can find...

Look at this Marine Depot link. If you check into the detail pages for the Poseidon pumps, you will see that the PS1 and PS3 are clearly the high pressure pumps.

And look at this Champion Lighting link. In the detail you will find that the T1 and T3 (apparent PS1 and PS3 equivalents) are also the high pressure pumps, and that they are the only Velocitys that are listed as "pressure rated".

Bottom line - I think Bayside messed up on their graph. And I'm more comfortable making that allegation because of the very clearly sloppy way that provided my instructions. Velocity, on the other hand, seems a bit more buttoned-down. If you can find any info to contradict this, please share it. Thanks.


----------



## Steve Kelly

scolley;592637c said:


> Steve, I assume that your only posting this spec sheet was a nice way of only indirectly pointing out that I'm wrong. Thanks. That was kind of you.
> 
> But I NEVER want to be responsible for passing along bad info. So to ANYONE reading my posts, if I'm wrong, and you think you know it. PLEASE say so directly. I'm posting to disseminate good information, nothing else.


Steve,

That was not my intent. I wanted to throw out what little info I'd been able to find on the Poseidon pumps. I should have included the *Marine Depot* link you mentioned in your response which indeed shows completely different specs for the pumps. It annoys me that after doing diligent research I come up with contradictory specs. And from Marine and Reef.com, here are their posted specs for the *PS3* and *PS4*. All of this makes it very difficult to make an informed buying decision unless one likes to do a lot of experimenting.

Needless to say, since you own both a PS1 and T1, your real-world experience with these pumps and your comments about them has been most helpful to me. If I do replace my QuietOne at some point, I just want to be sure I won't duplicate my existing inadequate pressure issue by buying the wrong replacement.




scolley;592637c said:


> Bottom line - I think Bayside messed up on their graph. And I'm more comfortable making that allegation because of the very clearly sloppy way that provided my instructions. Velocity, on the other hand, seems a bit more buttoned-down. If you can find any info to contradict this, please share it. Thanks.


The fact that your PS1/T1 can run the 25-micron cartridge for several months before cleaning/replacing means that it should be more than adequate for my tank. Thanks for including the link to champion lighting with their listing for the Velocity pumps. And here's one more link to a set of graphs for the *BlueLine Velocity* pumps which match the specs you've mentioned.


Steve


----------



## scolley

Steve Kelly said:


> It annoys me that after doing diligent research I come up with contradictory specs. And from Marine and Reef.com, here are their posted specs for the *PS3* and *PS4*. All of this makes it very difficult to make an informed buying decision unless one likes to do a lot of experimenting.


That's a pretty reasonable sentiment IMO Steve. But with your additional Blueline link I think it kind of puts the last nail in the coffin. Does in my mind anyway - seems that PS1/T1 and PS3/T3 are the pressure rated pumps.

That said, Bayside clearly is not manufacturing these pumps, just branding them, so I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Poseidon. It's warming up here, so maybe I can do that temp test this week.

And another important tidbit... both Marine Depot and Champion Lighting list their pumps as including a mounting bracket. I did not get a bracket with either one - and BOY does it need one. There are screw mount holes on the pump housing itself. But those mounting brackets in the pictures would have really come in handy. They are wicked quiet, but each one took another $25 worth of sorbothane mounting grommets to dampen the vibration, and brackets would have made that job easier.


----------



## lekyiscool

still in awe slowly trying to figure out how everything is set up
btw how in the world were u able to configure the draining and refilling with the solenoid to your desired settings and also the ferts. Its amazing! Also how is it controlled are you using a similar system to Serejo with the pressure valve or is it all with the solenoid controlled electrically? 

Even though your OC filter goes through a heap of tubes does it still maintain good flow rate?

Are you able to control the temp automatically or does the system have auto shut off to control the temp?

ALSO :icon_redf why 3 intake and only 2 ouflow ?

btw did you plan this out before working like with a software( or even one to draw your configuration)? if so which?

sry for the heap of questions =)
this project is an inspiration! just trying to learn


----------



## digthemlows

Steve, howz the tank coming along?


----------



## scolley

digthemlows said:


> Steve, howz the tank coming along?


Tank's doing fairly well. I need to get a post about it out...

Algae's MUCH better, though still not perfect. But good. I changed the 'scape a bit to accommodate more plants. It's not as attractive anymore, but it makes room for a lot of plants. I'll post soon. Thanks for asking!




lekyiscool said:


> btw how in the world were u able to configure the draining and refilling with the solenoid to your desired settings and also the ferts.


Draining and filling have nothing to do with the ferts. Check that diagram. In fact, draining and filling are independent. It's just you set the AC III to turn on the drain for a little while, and then have it turn the drain off and turn the fill on for a little while.




lekyiscool said:


> Also how is it controlled are you using a similar system to Serejo with the pressure valve or is it all with the solenoid controlled electrically?


Do you mean Serjio? Either way... I'm not sure how Serjio is doing auto water changes. As far as I know, I'm the first person to ever use a pressure valve to measure the depth of the water column through a hole in the tank, so whomever you are referring to is probably doing it like me - assuming they have the same setup.

The pressure sensor is just simple switch that is connected to a tube in the bottom of the tank. It can tell how high the water is. When the water a certain height (or higher) it turns on. There are two little wires running from it to the switch sensors on the AC III - it's made to do stuff like this. During the timed fill process, the AC III has a command that basically says "if that switch turns on, stop filling - even if there is more time left on your alloted fill time." So I have the fill timer set to go just a little longer than needed to fill - and the sensor switches on - and the fill process stops a minute or two early every night. That way I'm making darn sure it does get enough water, without being too much. And if the switch ever fails, the extra minute or two of filling will not be enough to flood stuff. Easy really.




lekyiscool said:


> Even though your OC filter goes through a heap of tubes does it still maintain good flow rate?


Good enough. I should have made all my tubing 1" rather than 3/4", and it would be better. But I can still run the tank on a single OC and pump. The one with all the tubes gives me about 350-380 gph, and without the tubes or filter it's almost 600 gph. With filter alone it's something like 500gph. So there is loss from the tubes, but not nearly what you would assume. And with the second OC and second pump the total has to be closer to 800 gph. I've not measured with both pumps, as it is visibly overkill. More than enough.




lekyiscool said:


> Are you able to control the temp automatically or does the system have auto shut off to control the temp?


The AC III controls the temp. Three of those big blue Pentair modules have a 300 watt heater in them - they are just normal submersible tank heaters. I've got the thermostats on those three heater set at something like 86 degrees - higher than I'll ever want, but not enough to boil discus. Those thermostats don't regulate the temperature - the AC III does. It has a temp sensor that is in my outflow manifold (near the pH sensor) that detects temp. If it's cold, the AC III turns on one of the heaters (they are normally plugged in, but the AC III provided no power to their plug. They are effectively turned off.) If it gets colder still (an extra 0.1 degree) it turns on another one. If it gets 0.1 degree colder than that, the final one gets turned on for a total of 900 watts heating. That's what allows me to fill the tank with Connecticut water at night in January.

What you are missing is the DC8's that the AC III uses to control everything. The DC8's are like big power strips that the AC III has a control wire running into. No plug in the power strip gets any power until the AC III turn on the power to that specific plug. So, for instance, you put a UV into the 1st plug, you could set the AC III to run the 1st plug at night. With the UV turned on, it still only gets power at night when the AC III provides power to it's plug. The heaters work the same way.




lekyiscool said:


> ALSO :icon_redf why 3 intake and only 2 ouflow ?


For the same reason that many in-line pumps have a larger inflow diameter hole than the diameter of the outflow hole... you never want to restrict the in-flow. Pumps do great at pushing, but are not good at sucking. So you want to provide them more water than they can use. The work pushing the water should be what restricts their flow rate. Never restrict them by not providing enough water fast enough.




lekyiscool said:


> btw did you plan this out before working like with a software( or even one to draw your configuration)? if so which?


I built the whole pluming setup first - outside of the stand. I even water tested it in the middle of my family room floor. It was pretty funny really - a big pile of tubes sucking water out of a trash can and BLASTING it back in. A leak would have been bad.

I had the size of the stand taped off on the floor as a big rectangle, and all the plumbing had to fit within the rectangle. That let me mess around with the configuration until I knew it would all fit. That and the fact that all my PVC connections are threaded. So if something didn't fit, I could just unscrew it and try a new configuration.

I did use a tool to predict the flow of the pump, with all the tubing. That is the Pump Head Loss Calculator over at Reefs.org. Or more accurately... I didn't use the calculator in that web page, but used the spreadsheet found in one of the links on that same page. I used the spreadsheet because it has a few additional types of plumbing. In particular, it had flow-thru and branching "T"s, of which I have quite a few. 90 degree elbows aren't nearly the big deal people make them out to be. But branching "T"s are bad news.

And I wanted to change value the tool used for the specific gravity of the water - fresh water flows faster than salt. The tool uses a 1.024 for specific gravity in its calc's - fine for salt water calculations. But in the spreadsheet I was able to change it to 0.85, which I gather is closer to the correct value for freshwater at 84 degrees (discus temps).





lekyiscool said:


> sry for the heap of questions =)


No prob! That's why I post.


----------



## lekyiscool

Wow thanks so much Scolly, very admiring work and yes sorry for murdering serjio's name i meant that i guess his is modled after yours

seems like that AC III is a work horse very nifty gadget

however one thing im not clear about is the PH control how is that controlled 
hah again sorry for asking so much and not contributing, slowly trying to learn all this stuff


----------



## scolley

lekyiscool said:


> sorry for murdering serjio's name i meant that i guess his is modled after yours


Not necessarily. I'm not sure how his works. All I was saying was that I know I'm the source of through the bottom pressure sensing. His may be entirely different. 

As to the pH sensing, lot's of people have posted about that here. That's a good use of the search function - it's not remotely unique to my tank. Good luck learning!


----------



## monkeyruler90

woooww, so i literly spent around 5 hours reading this whole thread. since post #1 and i totally love your tank. im so jealous. when i get out of college and have extra money, im totally going to set up an automatic system. im sure it makes life sooo much easier. good luck fighgting that GDA, and keep us updated on the status.

oh and i love your high quality pictures. they make great backgrounds


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## scolley

monkeyruler90 said:


> oh and i love your high quality pictures. they make great backgrounds


Dude, you make me laugh! My pictures are crap! I REALLY want a better camera. Would have been a good Father's day present, but we are on an austerity plan around my house, so I guess that's got to wait.

Speaking of waiting...

I've been saying forever that I would post my final stand diagram. Well here it is. Tank's been up a year now, and it took me this long to finish it. It really needs an accompanying electrical diagram to make real sense. The two together really would tell the whole story. This is just plumbing.

It looks complicated, but I just spent a leak free year - with a big kitten and a ferret using my stand as their personal playground. It's nearly (but not completely) bullet proof.

As for the full explanation, I know that a lot of you will just look at it and just "get it". For everyone else I've posted an explanation elsewhere. I'll provide a link later. But for now, this is the long promised diagram. And for those "keep it simple stupid" cynics... yes, it actually works. Rather well IMO.





If you click it you'll get a bigger pic.


----------



## travis

That's excellent Steve. You've probably got the most well-documented (and easily the most interesting) tank plumbing in the history of personal freshwater aquariums. It looks like you used Visio or something similar for the diagram. Very nice work!


----------



## scolley

Thanks Travis! I suppose more _documentation _would have been possible. But somehow this seemed like enough.  

And yes. That is indeed Visio. I'm not too good at it, but you don't have to be real clever or very practiced to get it to do something simple for you... making it my tool of choice.


----------



## lekyiscool

any particular reasons you decided to have then inflows come through tubes at the top rather then the two bulkheads, other then for circulation? The two bulkheads that serve for oxygen pumping and water pressure, could they have been integrated into the main intake? thanks


----------



## scolley

Great questions!

I definitely could have plumbed the inflows through bulkhead holes. I have extra holes drilled both for aquascape flexibility and to keep that option open. I know Tom Barr has his new tank set up with inflows coming in the bottom, and I'm looking forward to seeing how that works out. I discussed that option at length with a different, but highly experience planted tank luminary. But after listening to how the good circulation from high inflow, and low (bulkheaded) outflows, had proven itself over and over, I decided to compromise on my "eliminate visible equipment" hang-up and err on the side of caution. If, over time, people demonstrate that through the bottom returns work well, I'm ready to make the switch!

The air could been possibly been plumbed straight into the return flow. But I didn't want to see all the bubbles, and it also carried the possibility that the little bubbles could combine to become large bubbles as they returned to the tank. Having the bulkhead just let me not have to f*rt around with something that might - or might not - work. And finally... I've got a battery powered air pump that I'll hook up to this if I ever lose power for a long time.

That said, I am flirting with eliminating that air pump anyway, and putting a 2nd venturi in to just suck in air - no pump required. And it would make nice tiny bubbles. But that's just a maybe, someday, sort of thing.

As for the water pressure in-line... sorry. That does not work. Wish it did. Those lines are pressurized. I could put it in from of the pumps, where the only pressure is from the tank. But I've been told by a mechanical engineer that the rapid flow of the water - even if I created some sort of still water alcove to mount it in - will mess up the pressure readings. Please let me know if that's incorrect, as it would free up bulkhead, and reduce the things I have to hide in the tank.

Again - great questions! Right on the mark.:thumbsup:


----------



## khoile

Thanks for the diagram Steve!, I'll be printing it out for further study :thumbsup: 

Couple questions,
How's the Ocean Clear 340 working out for you? What's the height needed the filter for media change? I'm thinking of taking the advice to ditch the Pentair mechs and use ocean clear or Nu-clear. 

Thanks.
Khoi


----------



## scolley

Khoi, I think everyone with an OC pretty much loves them - from what I've seen. My initial problem with leaking seemed to be a break-in issue. Once I got my first filter sealed the first time, I've never had a lick of trouble. But now I know to get out the hammer!

The vertical clearance you need to change a cartridge is about 11". Maybe a shade less.

The only downside is that the jury seems to be out on the 340 filters. They are expensive and the big question is how long you will get out of a used, "cleaned" one. Cleaning them is a pain, and they just don't go as long without replacement or repeated cleaning. Only a few months vs. 6 months on a new one. But I haven't tanken mine out for a powerwash at the car wash yet. That might make a difference. And do keep in mind - neither 340 nor the 318 can be backwashed. I believe Tom Barr has the backwash model, which may be the way to go. I don't think it will filter as pristinely as a 340, but backwashing vs. filter cleaning would be great!

Even still, I'm real happy with my choice. They are rock solid, and go a long time between cleaning. It only takes 6-8 minutes to swap in a new (cleaned) cartridge. And they even seem to do a pretty good job filtering. :icon_wink


----------



## monkeyruler90

when are you gonna point some pics???? i can't wait to get an update


----------



## George

scolley said:


> If, over time, people demonstrate that through the bottom returns work well, I'm ready to make the switch!


It works well.

Hagen (Fluval) produce off-the-shelf systems with pre-drilled bottoms and supplied plumbing etc. 

I set up a tank 18 months ago for a client. Works great.

Super set up BTW. Most complex hobbyist FW system I've ever seen. Beats a lot of reef-nuts!


----------



## scolley

George said:


> It works well.
> 
> Hagen (Fluval) produce off-the-shelf systems with pre-drilled bottoms and supplied plumbing etc.
> 
> I set up a tank 18 months ago for a client. Works great.


Thanks George! But let's be clear... I've got no doubts about tanks drilled through the bottom. Nobody that I've ever seen has tanks MORE drilled/plumbed though the bottom than mine.

What I'm waiting on SPECIFICALLY is RETURNS drilled through the bottom that are not just pipes coming from the bottom to (or near) the top of the water. LOTS of people have returns that are just pipe coming up to the top (through the bottom) rather than over the side. Then you have a big "hide the pipe" problem.

Tom Barr, on the other hand - along with a few other people that I've seen before him - is bringing the return up through the bottom, but pretty much terminating the return plumbing VERY close to the bottom - so hiding pipes is not such an issue.

What remains to be seen is the circulation... and if it is sufficient that way.

It that is what you were referring to George - apologies. But it seemed best to be clear. I've got no problem with returns through the bottom. What I'm waiting to see good documented - over time - results on is through the bottom returns that terminate near the bottom.


----------



## scolley

monkeyruler90 said:


> when are you gonna point some pics???? i can't wait to get an update


How's now?

Tank looks like crap. Or the aquascape does anyway. I've got a good grip on the GDA problem, but I'm experimenting with growth, shadows, and proper levels of carbonate hardness at the moment. So it ain't going to be a "satisfying" aquascape. Sorry.

But I'm not good enough to have it look at it's best all the time. Sometime it's a work in progress.

I passed the 1-year anniversary on this tank a couple of weeks ago. Here's a shot from that landmark.


----------



## lekyiscool

wouldint circulation not be a problem maybe even better when its at the bottom the biggest thing is probably astrong pump to push it up here what i am thinking. Again i could be 100% its just me messing around but hey.


----------



## Chrisinator

You think your tank looks like crap? Think again! It looks awesome!


----------



## scolley

lekyiscool said:


> wouldint circulation not be a problem maybe even better when its at the bottom


Well, I can't say that I've got experience with it, but pushing water up to the top is the biggest issue that I can see... getting it up to the top without making all kind of splashing at the surface. The problem seems like it would be getting it high enough without being too high.

Again, I'm looking forward to what Tom Barr finds out about this. Thanks.



Chrisinator said:


> You think your tank looks like crap?


Thanks. I don't really think it looks like crap. It's just not what I would call a proper aquascape. And as always, you kinda have to take my word for the fact that my pictures just make it look flat. I need a better camera, because in person there's all sorts of depth that just does not come out in my pics.

Just because this is a photo thread, here are a few casual pics from yesterday...














As usual, clicking will bring up another picture.

And BTW, I finished my plumbing and electrical diagrams. I've started a small blog where I'm posting them. Following the link in my sig will show you, if you are interested.


----------



## Chrisinator

Awesome Discus! What do you call a "proper aquascape"?


----------



## scolley

Chrisinator said:


> Awesome Discus! What do you call a "proper aquascape"?


Thanks. But a proper 'scape? I dunno... something that looks less like a big clump of plants I suppose.

I'm happy with how the Cobalt discus are turning out. They were much smaller when I got them a year and a half ago. The High-bodied Leopards came to me pretty much full grown, so I'm kind of excited that the Cobalts caught up to their size, and may pass them.

But I'm REALLY excited about the fact that I've got 5 new discus waiting in the wings. I bought them from Al Sabetta (runs Simplydiscus.com), who got them from Wayne Ng, who imported them from Tony Tan. They are some of Tony's "3R2"s, which is just one of his special lines of Red Gold Diamonds (RGDs). They are small now though, and I've got them in a bare bottomed grow-out tank. But eventually I'm looking forward to them being 5 big red discus to add to the tank.

I'm hoping that it will look awesome!


----------



## khoile

Steve, the tank is amazing!


----------



## Gatekeeper

Are you removing any of the old discus or just going to add these new mystery guys right in?

Tanks looks good man, nice to see things are a bit smoother for you now.

BTW, totally digging the blog!roud:


----------



## nellis

I think I can honestly say that I think this most recent scape is my favorite Scolley scape yet. The left side looks a little barren, but otherwise excellent.


----------



## Bert H

Hey Steve, tank's looking good. :thumbsup: Was it the maracyn that finally beat the algae back for you? Or a combination of things? 

It's amazing that the discus don't make snacks out of the cardinals you have in there.


----------



## scolley

khoile said:


> Steve, the tank is amazing!


Thanks Buddy! But it's not going to hold a candle to yours once you get that bad boy set up! :thumbsup: 



gmccreedy said:


> Are you removing any of the old discus or just going to add these new mystery guys right in?
> 
> Tanks looks good man, nice to see things are a bit smoother for you now.
> 
> BTW, totally digging the blog!roud:


Thanks! No discus to be removed. I was observing some big tanks with lots of discus last weekend, and was struck by how much they LOVE a big group. So I just go more. But they'll need to grow out a bit I'm afraid. Right now... I'm just trying to convince them to eat.  They are a bit skittish so far...

As for the blog - thanks! It's just my chance to kind of say things the way I really feel. I hold back here, because in a community you want to be polite and not step on toes. Well, that how my parents raised me to act anyway.

There I can just say what I like - how I really feel about issues of our mutual concern. And if someone doesn't like it, fine. They just won't come back.

And I fully intent to continue to be an active contributor to this and other forums I'm active in. This is my planted tank community. That is my blog. Two different things. So no change really, other than Steve finally has a place to let off some steam, and provide information exactly as I'd like to see it structured. :icon_wink 





nellis said:


> I think I can honestly say that I think this most recent scape is my favorite Scolley scape yet. The left side looks a little barren, but otherwise excellent.


Thanks Nellis. But I tell you the truth when I say that I'm SHOCKED and SURPRISED to hear that. Or maybe you never saw my Big Clear Kahuna or Kahuna's Revenge tanks? There's just no way this is better than those... or maybe I'm just missing something. Thanks for the kind words though!




Bert H said:


> Hey Steve, tank's looking good. :thumbsup: Was it the maracyn that finally beat the algae back for you? Or a combination of things?
> 
> It's amazing that the discus don't make snacks out of the cardinals you have in there.


Thanks Bert. The maracyn actually made things worse in a subsequent test. I suspect it does work on the GDA, but that it also can give your biofilter a pretty big hit too. So I've abandoned that.

No, it's not conquered yet - by far. But it's lot better, and most of the other nuisance algaes are gone too - except the sand turning green after a while and needing cleaning.

The difference was simple. I stopped dosing N and P. The discus and their food contribute a lot, and I believe (but don't know) that with all the Nitrate I was making available in my ferts, the plants were not as quick to suck up all the ammonia, and with even a little around, it was triggering algae growth.

So, with less N & P my plants are growing as fast, but the algae has gone into retreat. Thanks goodness!

And apparently domestic strains of discus rarely care about tetras. Many don't even care about little shrimp like cherries.


----------



## Brilliant

Lucky me...I never dosed N or P in my discus tank. Its a real shame 'El Natural' has to be so strict...it would be much more popular/better then EI if co2 or trace nutrients were not banned...the idea is still the same. Use nature for what its got.

I really wonder why you are adding baking soda. Also wondering why you add the calcium and magnesium.


----------



## scolley

Brilliant said:


> I really wonder why you are adding baking soda. Also wondering why you add the calcium and magnesium.


Specifically Arm & Hammer Baking Soda to raise my KH. And CaCl2 and MgSO4 to raise my GH.

While the KH being so low is not SUPPOSED to be a problem, I've had better success with my plant in the past (I think but can't prove) when I get it up beyond it's nature @1.2 degrees from my tap to the 2-3 range.

As for the CaCl2 and MgSO4, I can say with out a doubt that my plants do better when I get GH up to 3 or so. The just don't ever thrive at the 1-1.5 degree GH that comes out of my tap. As to the why, I don't know.


----------



## Gatekeeper

You say you are struggling to get the new guys to eat, have you tried a live blood worm culture as opposed to frozen? Then a small transition to by ratio to other foods as their apetites pick up?

Could it just be the stress of a new tank?

You water parameters out of the tap are crazy. I have a kH of 7 and gH of 13. LMAO. 

Keep up the outstanding work. Your tank is certainly something to aspire to.


----------



## scolley

gmccreedy said:


> You say you are struggling to get the new guys to eat, have you tried a live blood worm culture as opposed to frozen? Then a small transition to by ratio to other foods as their apetites pick up?
> 
> Could it just be the stress of a new tank?
> 
> You water parameters out of the tap are crazy. I have a kH of 7 and gH of 13. LMAO.
> 
> Keep up the outstanding work. Your tank is certainly something to aspire to.


Thanks Glenn. Yup. I'm super fortunate with the water. 

And I may have to resort to live food soon, as their appetites are not picking up the way they should. The dealer had them eating Beefheart (home made), flake, frozen blood worms, and Ocean Nutrition small Formula One pellets. I can't get the darned fish to eat much of anything. So switching to live and later modifying ratios as you suggest may be coming soon.

Yet I hesitate to feed live due to nasty health issues that crop up with live worms periodically. These fish are fantastically healthy now, so I hate to jeopardize that with tainted worms (whether blood or California black). But I may be headed that way soon out of desperation.

Thanks.


----------



## Gatekeeper

I hate to throwthis out, but perhaps some garlic mixed in with the fozen treats? I have had great success getting finiky fish eating with just a lil bit of garlic. I believe its quite healthy for them as well (but I can't speak 100% for Discus just yet on this matter). I would avoid some of the oils though, just small bits mixed in.

Surprised the dealer had them eating blood worms and you are having trouble.


----------



## scolley

gmccreedy said:


> ...perhaps some garlic mixed in with the fozen treats?


Thanks Glenn. Good suggestion. I've got a thread over at simply that goes into my problem in some detail. Bottom line...

It wasn't about making food attractive. It was about dealing with the stress that caused them to lose their otherwise vigorous appetites.

I've got them eating now - FBW - but not by changing foods, but rather by changing environmental conditions. Less stress in adapting to their new home.

Soon I hope to have them eating like pigs, and ready to more into the "big house".


----------



## Gatekeeper

I have been watching that thread Steve since you posted over there. Actually my reference to garlic was not as a simple luxury, but it has been stated (and it has worked for me), that garlic can actually increase apetite.

Can I say 100%. No, but like I said, it woked for me. Glad to see its working out either way.


So, back to your tank. Are there future modifications to the scape that you have in the works?


----------



## scolley

gmccreedy said:


> Are there future modifications to the scape that you have in the works?


What 'scape? That's JABOP (just a bunch of plants) to my eye. Shameful as an aquascape.

So yes, there are modifications planned. That's my goal for this next year. But right now I'm fighting a WICKED GDA problem. Yes, it's back.

I ignored the tank for weeks - just plain busy, and didn't feel like maintenance. Well, the GDA built up and I cleaned it. And then I changed the micron filter on one of my Aquaclears. It seems to me that lots of GDA cleaned off the glass and into the water gumms one of those puppies up fast. Must be just the right size.

Well, between putting WAY too much GDA back into my water, and the replacement of the filter - losing that good biofilter in it - the GDA exploded this week. And because the new little discus are in a tank right by the big one, I didn't want to mess around there too much cleaning it. So I let it go all week.

And now it's a mess. Doing a w/c (the big manual kind) as I type this. So now I created a problem for my tank, and I'm just gonna have to work thru it. But I think I know how to get it back under control now. This will be a good test.

And THEN I can think about actually aquascaping the tank!


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Hows the tank coming along Steve? Im a huge fan of this technical marvel.


----------



## scolley

The tank's doing fine, thanks Orlando!

Well, relatively speaking anyway. (looking for the embarrassed icon, but can't find it)

The aquascape looks like CRAP! But the algae problem is looking REAL good. I've cut my dosing of N and P back to zip. Depending on what's in my water, and food, and discus poop. And I am doing a TINY amount of micro and K dosing. But it's tiny. And I've cut the lights back to 7 hrs a day with a 90 minute siesta, and... surprise, surprise, surprise! The plants are cool with it, and the algae is diminishing significantly week after week after week, that I'm made this change.

The algae is not gone mind you. But it is now just something that takes about an hour of my time each week. Now, given my low maintenance goal - that's a lot. But two months ago I was on the edge of scratching it all and starting over - just because of the algae maintenance time. But at 1 hour a week total maintenance time for a 180 gallon planted discus tank, I figure I'm getting close to the "sweet spot".

As far as the technology goes, I had to replace the pH probe (first time for this tank) and I have to admit that it's a mess. The first probe's wire was nicely laid in cable holders along the back of the tank. But it turns out that pulling all that out, and securing a new cord into the clips, was such a PITA when my pH was out of whack, I did not have the patience to properly wire the new cord in, and just draped it across the top of stuff, from one side of the stand where the Aquacontroller is, to the manifold on the other side of the tank where the probe is inserted into the water flow. It was sloppy, but expedient. And it just has not been worth the time to correct it.

I got some new fish - cool Wayne Ng "3R2" discus - that were recently introduced into my tank. I've got pics on my blog, but I need to post some here. Will do soon. Sorry.

And MOST EXCITING (!!!), a manager from Tropica was kind enough to send me some plants to test! Cool! He sent...


Staurogyne sp.
Myriophyllum mezianum
Lindernia rotundifolia ‘variegated’

Most of them I've never had! I just got back from a biz trip, and they were waiting - looking VERY WELL for the trip from Europe. And I can't wait to plant them. But lest it seem like I'm alone in this, I noticed in the email announcing the shipment some other people in the USA that are also fortunate enough to receive these samples. And AT LEAST one was someone else (very notable person) from this forum. But respect for their privacy prohibits me from saying who. But if you see anyone posting about these plants anytime soon... you'll know. :icon_wink 

So I owe you some pics. I'll pull some from the blog and post them soon - not this weekend, but soon! Promise.

Thanks for asking!


----------



## nellis

scolley said:


> And MOST EXCITING (!!!), a manager from Tropica was kind enough to send me some plants to test! Cool! He sent...
> 
> 
> Staurogyne sp.
> Myriophyllum mezianum
> Lindernia rotundifolia ‘variegated’
> 
> Most of them I've never had! I just got back from a biz trip, and they were waiting - looking VERY WELL for the trip from Europe. And I can't wait to plant them. But lest it seem like I'm alone in this, I noticed in the email announcing the shipment some other people in the USA that are also fortunate enough to receive these samples. And AT LEAST one was someone else (very notable person) from this forum. But respect for their privacy prohibits me from saying who. But if you see anyone posting about these plants anytime soon... you'll know. :icon_wink
> 
> So I owe you some pics. I'll pull some from the blog and post them soon - not this weekend, but soon! Promise.



Not fair! I was under the impression that Tropica didn't ship to the U.S. (for whatever reason- phytosanitary or other) If they started to it would be a great day in history for sure.


----------



## scolley

nellis said:


> Not fair!


I dunno... maybe having over 1/2 a million views on my threads here had something to do with that decision.  



nellis said:


> If they started to it would be a great day in history for sure.


I agree! You should see these plants too. All the way from Denmark and the could be the healthiest looking plants that I've ever received from any vendor. Ever.


Here's a few recent pics. You can see that the plants have been trimmed way back. It's not an aquascape to speak of. I pretty much hacked out anything with much algae on it before I made the changes I mentioned in my last post.

And now I'm letting stuff grow back slowly. But the key is, it's growing back algae free.



In this pic you can see one of the "3R2"s. Most of them are pretty skittish. Only two come out of the plants to eat regularly. One comes out sometimes, and the other two... well if they don't eat soon they're gonna die, or get badly stunted anyway.

They ate fine in their quarentine tank, once I got that set up to their liking. But they remained wicked skittish, always looking to hide. Maybe they'll get over it with time. I dunno. Now that I've got them, I'm told it's a skittish line. Great. Expensive fish you can't see. :icon_frow


----------



## khoile

Very nice tank Steve,

But how come the fish always in the left corner when you take pictures? Tell them to venture out, it's such a big tank! .


----------



## scolley

That's a good - and very irritating - question.

The short answer is that on the left side is the open area that I deliberately left open and sandy as a feeding area. I made that corner open because I also knew it would hold fish, and it's the corner of the tank closest to viewers in the room.

The slightly longer answer is that now the fish are trained to the fact that people bring food, and food comes to that area. So if someone is around, the fish are all there. All the time.

The longer answer is that with the little red 3R2's in the tank, I've set up an Eheim feeder to make sure those little fish get enough food. These fish have never used a feeder before, and it's (naturally) set up over the spot designed for feeding. And now the darned fish NEVER leave that spot. I mean NEVER.

There's a whole new pecking order dynamic in the tank now that there's a feeder there. It's making me nuts. They don't spread out. They don't all have "their" spot. They just hang under the feeder.

So I'm gonna have to move it. Or get more feeders. Or something. But this in not working. Now my 3R2's don't get enough food because the big fish hang under the feeder - it's their territory now - and beat off any smaller fish. The feeder is defeating the purpose - which was to provide enough food to ensure the smaller fish get some.

Sorry. Long answer. It's just an answer that has me frustrated at the moment. :icon_frow


----------



## khoile

Well look like you can do some experiment here, get another feeder and place it at the other end. Then program it so they alternate, see how the fish learn. Next, randomize the feeding order .


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## rountreesj

Yes apparently fish follow Pavlav's rule too...I agree^ just alternate feeding area...they will learn to come out if you make them...plus to me and I would guess most viewers also...sometimes the skiddish and hiding fish complement the "showoffs". The skiddish ones just irritate photografers !


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## Martin

Steve, about the emails, it seems I missed bcc'ing them..  hopefully their privacy will stay that way.. private, unless they decide to announce themselves.. I thought I'd been meticulous in protecting the emailadresses, but ack..the xls file probably ruined that.

Tropica didn't send you any plants... I did... 

Tropica would neeeever send plants to the US where annoying import laws make it Bureaucratically impossible to get plants through customs...


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## nellis

Martin said:


> Tropica would neeeever send plants to the US where annoying import laws make it Bureaucratically impossible to get plants through customs...


What a lousy situation too... I think you'd really do well here. I've been drooling over shots on the tropica website for years now.


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## scolley

khoile said:


> Well look like you can do some experiment here, get another feeder and place it at the other end. Then program it so they alternate, see how the fish learn. Next, randomize the feeding order .


That was my thinking exactly. I've got a new feeder shipping to me now.



Martin said:


> Steve, about the emails, it seems I missed bcc'ing them..  hopefully their privacy will stay that way.. private, unless they decide to announce themselves.. I thought I'd been meticulous in protecting the emailadresses, but ack..the xls file probably ruined that.
> 
> Tropica didn't send you any plants... I did...


Cool. Sorry Martin. Privacy is just that... private. I'll never tell - 'tis why I didn't say anything earlier.

So I stand corrected on "Tropica". Sorry about that. So.. I got some plants from Martin. Thanks Martin! They are doing pretty well so far. They spent days in a bucket of water before I could even THINK about planting them. And I've split them into two groups... plantings in shallow dishes of ADA Aquasoil, and put in my toasty warm discus tank. And a group that I just stuck in a covered, high humidity" tank with no water, just soaking wet aquasoil, growing emersed. Both groups look good on their 2nd day of planting!


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## Martin

I Wish Tropica would be able to ship and sell to the States but there are strict laws concerning plants.

about the mails, all I meant to do, and mean to do, is make it up to yourselves(those of you who are "in the programme" if you want to tell people about it. That's your decision not mine... Personally I'd tell... for sure. .

Officially, Tropica doesn't send plants to the States because of all the trouble it would cause..

But if I as a private person send plants to people, well..... and if it IS in the interest of my....furthering knowledge of plants from Tropica ...well isn't that just spiffy..!

I look forward to hearing from you(you all) later on.


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## Pyt

>>thread hijack on<<

About shipping plants to the US. As far as I have been told, by people in the business, it's all about visible roots.

When sending plants to the US, through official channels as you would have to do as a company, the roots of the plants have to be visible. This is due to customs being able to inspect the plants for snails and other pests.

This presents a problem, since Tropica ships their plants in pots with the roots covered in rock wool. Removing this rock wool, would seriously shorten the plants viability, both during transit and "shelf life" in the shops.

One of the better things about plants from Tropica, is the ability for the plants to survive a long transit period, and also be able to survive a long time in the shops.

Now, I might be in the wrong here, so don't put too much into this.

>>thread hijack on<<

Btw. Steve, I haven't forgotten you asked about pictures of my "through-the-bottom-inflow" - you'll get one shortly.

/Jens


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## Martin

exactly right Jens.


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## scolley

Cool. And guess what? I got "visible roots" with my plants. roud: 

Looking forward to the pics Jens!

And Martin, good thing I can tell, since the cat's out of the bag, plus they are in my tank now, and I've GOT to post picks of the tank. :icon_wink And I am REALLY looking forward to seeing how that Staurogyne sp. turns out. I did not clip the tall shoots upon planting, as advised by Tropica's web site. I was concerned that they had been in poor conditions long enough that I wanted to give it full chance of recovery. In a week or to, if it looks healthy, I'll go top it off.


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## Martin

Steve, you may see what appears to be leaf rot. I've seen it several times with Staurogyne when you plant the plant directly without removing emersed leaves.

I cannot say that it happens all the time, I've just seen it happen.


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## scolley

scolley said:


> I was concerned that they had been in poor conditions long enough that I wanted to give it full chance of recovery...


Martin - I wasn't saying they were in poor condition. Far from it! They arrived in a condition that was as good as ANY plant I have ever received.

What I was referring to was the fact that I had no time for them for days after I received them. First I was away on a business trip, and then I returned to immediately leave on a mini-vacation long weekend. So the poor plants that arrived so well were forced to sit in a bucket of room temperature tank water, in very dim light, for a good five days AFTER I got them. I was keeping them in poor conditions.

That's why I didn't prune. I knew that I had put them through such a hard time. But they are looking pretty good. Most have new shoots/leaves, and very little (or no) die off. :icon_wink

I'll look for the die off of emersed leaves. That's pretty common though, and not something I'll worry much about. But if it continues to look so good, I'll trim it back in a few days.


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## scolley

I haven't posted pics in forever it seems. So here's a few from the tank yesterday. It has looked worse lately, through a number of mishaps. First I changed my two filters at the same time. Wow! How stupid. That massively reduced my biofilter, and algae was the result. Still getting over that little bit of stupidity. And then I put in some new discus called 3R2's. But I didn't medicate them while they were in quarrentine, and they got sick in the big tank. So I had to medicate the big tank and THAT hurt my biofilter too, with another minor algae outbreak.

But all that was two or three weeks ago, and this is the tank today.



















































In the low pots above you can see two of the Tropica plants I received a little while ago. They both came in their terrestrial form and it has taken a while for them to change over. The one in the middle still shows dark green through the green leaves on top. That's the aglae that took hold on it's leaves before it started putting out it's aquatic leaf forms. And I got a third - HC like - plant, but it did not root well, and kept getting pulled up by my corys and loaches. Fortunately I have all three growing out in a terrarium - in the "Barr" method - for extra stock.


And these little guys are in my quarantine now, waiting to go into the tank in a month or so.


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## khoile

Tank look pretty healthy. Wow those discus are RED!. Although I think you don't need any more discus. More cardinal would make the tank look better imo.


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## CL

Wow! Those new plants are awesome! The discus aren't too bad either


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## eyebeatbadgers

Wow, those new discus are gorgeous!


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## scolley

Thanks. It's worth noting that the reds seem to have been "pushed" in some of these photos. I think it is my camera's white balance. If you look at the top two shots, you may notice that the little orange discus look more red in the top shot. Sorry, the 2nd shot is a better representation of their color.

So if you look at the little red discus on bottom, you need to reduce their "redness" in your imagination by the same degree that the top top pics differ. Sorry. They are very red. But not quite that red.

And as for too many discus, that's a fair call for your typical planted tank. But I'm really diggin' how discus school, and I'm shooting for a school of discus. And WFIW, my camera's crappy, so I have to shoot at a crappy apature that eliminates all the depth of field from my shots. In these pics the tank looks crowded. But it's not remotely crowded. It's 24" from front to back, and those discus are almost all in the first 6-8 inched - crowding the glass. There's LOADS of room for those fish, you just can't tell in my crappy pics. Sorry.


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## unirdna

I admit, Steve, the blue background is growing on me. How long before they make LED aquarium backgrounds - like a giant laptop monitor? I'll keep my eyes on your thread because you're sure to be one of the first to have one .

The photo 3rd from the bottom helps to show a bit of relief, but if you walked up to the tank and took a shot looking down at a 30-45 degree angle, you'd give us an even better feel for how big that baby is.

Fish are awesome!!!


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## scolley

Ted, the blue is definitely not a typical planted tank background color. As you may recall, I prefer planted tanks with no background at all. And if this were your typical planted tank, I think I'd remove it. But this is really a discus tank with plants, not the other way around.

As such backgrounds make the fish more comfortable. And the blue tends to lighten/brighten up the fish, and discourages them showing stress bars. I can't say I'm wild about it myself. But it seems to be doing it's job on the discus. If I do anything to change it, I may be making it a lot lighter - if you can imagine such a thing. That would be - I suppose - as close to LED as I can afford. :icon_wink

But that speaks to the "crowding" question too. Discus feel safety in numbers (except when spawing/rearing) and enjoy a crowd. So I'm giving them enough tank mates to do that. And when I approach the tank, they are always in my face, 'cuz hey - you never know - he might bring more food.

So even if you can believe that my camera shots - and the fish's tendency to crowd the front - both make it look like the tank is crowded, when in actual fact it is not - there is still a planted tank issue... visually you are assaulted by fish motion and color. The plants play a poor second fiddle behind the fish as far as getting your attention goes. The plants are even arranged with the fish in mind. True aquascaping is a secondary consideration. I'm sure it's a bet offensive to visual sensibilities trained to evaluate traditional planted tanks.

As I said before, it's a discus tank with plants. Not a planted tank per se.


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## Gatekeeper

Wouldn't a black (or a very dark) background make the fish "pop" more Steve?


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## scolley

gmccreedy said:


> Wouldn't a black (or a very dark) background make the fish "pop" more Steve?


From a contrast standpoint - with the assumption that the fish were always the same color - yes, I think it would. I used to have a black background on this tank for that reason.

But I've changed it to blue for a while to observe... discus rapidly change color with conditions, brightening and darkening to blend in. In planted tanks they tend to darken up - and/or show stress bars - and if possessing pigeon-blood genes, they "pepper". All this in camouflaging with the plants.

Backgrounds have the same effect to some extent. So it's entirely possible that they brighten up so much with a blue background that they still "pop" more visually with that - more than the "pop" of their darker colors against black. I'm going to have to look at the tank, and some pics, for a while to be sure which is better here.


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## Betowess

Hey Steve, Long time no net. Hope you're doing well. 
Might I add its looks fantastic! And I think its neither a Discus tank with plants, nor a planted tank with discus, but rather a botanical Discus planted tank, meaning you've planted some gems of both fauna and floura. Its spectacular on both fronts, but you're right, the discus are definately the headliners.

BTW, though I do love a black background, I think lighter colors kind of bring a happier mood to a tank, at least that's considered a standard in a lot of advertising and photography. So, FWIW, I like the blue too and it might result in a more up beat mood to a guest viewer.


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## scolley

Thanks Bob. Things are reasonably well - thank you. Certainly hope the same for you pal!

Thanks for the kind words. I'm not excited about the 'scape. It's evolved to keep algae and maintenance down. The open front and left areas are all about feeding, and crap not winding up in the plants. I started with lots and lots of shrimp to keep that down - and was sloppy about feeding - knowing the shrimp would get it. But they have mostly died off over time, even as the algae has also diminished. I don't want to say there is a connection - I have not changed the amount of food going in the tank. But...

And the plants stuggle as there's only 1.66 wpg in there, and I don't add anything to my ultra soft water other than daily injection of micros and macros. So my KH and GH hover around 1, with super low Ca and Mg. So the trick - for me - in this high urine, low light, low nutrient environment, has been to keep NPK, and macros on the low side. I starved the plant of that too, and slowly added until I started to see signs of deficiencies diminish.

So this big old tank only has N at 8, P at 0.7, and K around 10. Seems to keep the plants happy, and algae at bay. Ah... very low doses of TMG too.

But I'm meeting my major objective - low maintenance. It's at 1-2 hours a week now. That doesn't include tossing in a few cubes of bloodworms each morning and evening. Less work would be nice, but 1-2 hrs/wk doesn't seem too bad for a 180 full of discus. And the best part is, I can skip a week for business travel and it's no big deal.

Cheers.


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## fandango

Beautiful plants and fish. Great tank!

Your discus look super-healthy and happy. What kind of foods do you feed them and what happens when you go on your business trips regarding the feeding regime?

Best,
fandango


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## scolley

Thanks fandango. They get Hikari frozen blood worms in the morning and evenings, with Tetra Color Bits (now called "granules" I think) in small feedings through out the day.

When I travel the color bits are fed as normal, because I don't feed them - I use an Eheim automatic feeder. And my wife does the morning and evening blood worm feedings for me - only takes 5 minutes.

So technically, when you add it up, that feeding takes another hour (accumulated time) out of the week. But when I travel with my wife, they just live off the color bits. It's kinda cool to have a planted discus tank that can go a week or two without human intervention. It makes me happy anyway, and it's what I need to be able to be involved in this hobby.

PS - though I can't prove it, I'm convinced that they are snacking off the occasional ghost shrimp too. I've seen them lunge for the shrimp in a way that indicated that it's something they've done before. And either these are short lived shrimp, or I've got a bunch missing. :icon_eek:

PPS - and though the opportunity presents itself much less often, I seen them lunge (with real enthusiasm!) at a green neon tetra if it get's away from the school and cornered. Maybe that explains a little of why my seventy odd school is now closer to twenty five.


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## Betowess

Steve, I'm definately into the lower maintenance. This last year, I kind of bagged my tank and just fed my Rainbows, even letting the CO2 run out. Auto water change allowed that non maintenance, while I was getting into a new hobby of building a row dory from Okoume marine ply. Needless to say, with a heavy fish load and no maintenance the tank became a holloween BBA show. I finally gave away the Rainbows (except I kept a few Turq children I had bred). Then I pulled all the plants except for needle/narrow leaf java, windelov and crypts etc. which weren't really affected by BBA and re-started a grow out tank, which is now fairly algae free and restarted with gas as well. Plants are kicking butt now. Fairly low dosing too.

OK, why the long play by play? Well, in looking at your tank, I was thinking some short clumps of nice and green needle or narrow leaf Java would look good in that dark lower area next to the sand edge, and I've got plenty if you want it, and you know it can thrive anywhere. Just an opinion. I had been thinking about you lately, with all thats going on and such. These kind of times sure make this hobby sweet therapy, at least that's been my feeling of late. I'll post a pic pretty soon. best regards, bob


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## Phil Edwards

Wow Steve, that's a fantastic tank. I've really enjoyed seeing the different phases Kahuna and the Son of Kahuna have gone through over the years. It looks like you've hit on a good combination with this setup.

Regards,
Phil


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## scolley

Bob - Thanks. It's great to hear from you. That's a very kind offer. But - here's a plant bigotry confession - I usually am not too fond of like java ferns. And I've had some huge ones. Do they grow in warm water? In the summer my tank spikes at 86 almost daily, and it is never less than 82 degrees.

Your new hobby sounds interesting. And it's good to see you here. And you know - of course - there's some quality scotch waiting at my house for whenever you make it by. 

And I can understand taking a break from the hobby, especially when other things are going on. That's certainly the case for meet too. I kind of have had the perfect storm on things converging:

1) Tired of the notoriety I used to have here. Maybe enough time has passed that most people don't remember me now. That would be refreshing.
2) Tired of the hobby - needed something new to catch my attention.
3) A growing interest in discus - which is why I have a discus tank with plants, and not the other way around.
4) A difficult patch of time in my personal life, though thankfully that is mostly behind me. Been a tough year or two though.

They have all combined to really cut back on my planted tank time, and time on plantedtank.net.

Phil - thank you very much! Coming from you that means a lot. I don't think I'm gonna get very far in an AGA contest with this tank - not that I ever did. But entering was fun. This tank is just not competitive at all. Though I am working on the aquascape this year. But I am working inside some constraints.

1) It's got to remain low maintenance.
2) The plants have to deal with low light and high temps. That eliminates a whole lot of plants.
3) The plants can't require that I swap out the sand for substrate.
4) The plants have to thrive on minimal ferts (that loops us back to requirement number one above).

So I've not given up. But I'm happy to take my time to slowly, slowly, slowly try small changes.

Thanks for the kind feedback!


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## Betowess

Hey Steve, Great to hear from you too. I'm almost positive the needle and narrow leaf will take the heat, as its Java. The narrow leaf gets pretty tall (I think that is its common name), but the needle leaf stays in a nice shortish clump, maybe 5 inches tall and has a delightful little sway in the current :thumbsup: ... I bet it would work great, and I have some to share, so PM me if interested. BTW, I may be coming up to Litchfield this summer - for my wife's family reunion, so that would be way cool to hook up if the dates work out. Stay tuned. cheers, bob


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## monkeyruler90

how are the fishes doing steve?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

scolley said:


> I haven't posted pics in forever it seems. So here's a few from the tank yesterday. It has looked worse lately, through a number of mishaps. First I changed my two filters at the same time. Wow! How stupid. That massively reduced my biofilter, and algae was the result. Still getting over that little bit of stupidity. And then I put in some new discus called 3R2's. But I didn't medicate them while they were in quarrentine, and they got sick in the big tank. So I had to medicate the big tank and THAT hurt my biofilter too, with another minor algae outbreak.
> 
> But all that was two or three weeks ago, and this is the tank today.
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> 
> In the low pots above you can see two of the Tropica plants I received a little while ago. They both came in their terrestrial form and it has taken a while for them to change over. The one in the middle still shows dark green through the green leaves on top. That's the aglae that took hold on it's leaves before it started putting out it's aquatic leaf forms. And I got a third - HC like - plant, but it did not root well, and kept getting pulled up by my corys and loaches. Fortunately I have all three growing out in a terrarium - in the "Barr" method - for extra stock.
> 
> 
> And these little guys are in my quarantine now, waiting to go into the tank in a month or so.


Unbelievable color! Very nice.

How are the new plants from Tropica doing in there new home?

Regards, Orlando


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## scolley

Thanks Orlando. As always, there's trouble in paradise...

I've been tinkering - slowly - with ferts, over the last couple of months. Pin holes in lot's of leaves. It's the same old song though. Improve that with more potassium, and then something else is limiting. And then someone says... "IE is the solution to that", but I'm not going into that here. I'm looking for balance, not excess. 'Nuff said.

So things were really good and I went and boosted my CO2 to 30 ppm. What? Heresy! Not keeping CO2 to 30 ppm? Yes, with less than 2 WPG there wasn't the growth to justify it. After 24 hours the increase in algae was unmistakable. Not to mention the addition of my arch nemesis - thread algae! But I let it keep going for about 10 days to be sure. No doubt about it. So I've cut way back on the CO2, have massively trimmed the plants back to ugly low levels to recover. It'll look fine in 3-4 weeks.

But as much as I am blaming the CO2, it was not the only factor. A few weeks before that a couple of the darned 3R2's were exhibiting signs of hex - a disease discus are susceptible to. They had signs of it shortly after I moved them to the big tank, and now a couple of them where exhibiting it again. But I could not move them to a quarrentine tank because that tank had those other red fish (actually called 3R's - as opposed to the sick 3R2's). So I had to dose the whole tank. And while people will tell you that Jungle Lab's Parasite Clear (a mixed med) doesn't hurt plants - it will pull a whammy on your biofilter! The plants got hit with algae because of that little medical boondoggle. And then it was while they were recovering that I decided to "help" them with a little more CO2. Live an learn I suppose.

So the tank's not at it's best at the moment. Give it a few weeks.

As for the fish...

Two or three of the original orange 3R2's stopped eating Tetra Color Bits. Which is kind of rough since they are so small that they need several solid feedings a day. And most of the feedings are the bits (TCB) in an auto feeder. So every morning and evenings when the tank gets blood worms, they would be starving. So two or three of them are starting to get stunted. The other two are doing great. But the other three are a problem.

And then there's the four 3Rs! They look red in the picture. Right? Well I've moved three of them into the main tank, and they could not be more orange. That tells me that the 10,000K halogens over the 180 are not kind to reds. Washes them out. Bummer.

Anyway, I left one "red" 3R in the quarentine tank, because it was not yet eating TCB as well as I wanted. And I moved the three problem 3R2's into the quarantine tank with it. Now all four of them are on a TCB only diet, and they have about 10 days to learn to chow down on the stuff. After that they are being culled as fish too stupid to eat for their own good.

And in their place, I've got some Snow White discus on order. IMO, it's gonna provide great color contrast. And there's no way those 10,000K halogens can wash out white. What's it gonna make them? White? :hihi:

PS - I got one of your double drop checkers Orlando. Really a spectacular little piece of equipment! :thumbsup:

PPS - the tropic stem plant was doing spectacular until I added the additional CO2. Was many, many stems almost to the top of the tank - 24" high. But the thread algae got to it and I cut back almost 80% of it. Bummer. And the little ground cover plant is growing well, but slowly, and it too get hit with GDA pretty hard - lots like an anubias that's not doing well. The curse of slow growers in a tank with too much NH3.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Holly molly Steve! You have quite the project on your hands there! 
I hope your fish learn to get there grub problem under control
Im hoping for the best for those fish and the Kahuna.

 Those DC's are a nice little tool to have around

Regards, Orlando


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## Martin

Hi Steve.

hope your fish make it alright.. and the plants of course.
10000K is way too high for anything plant wise  and rendering of nice discus colours.

if you up CO2 and the plants have the bare minimum of ferts they'll punish you by letting the algae have a feast. but of course you know this !


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## scolley

Yea, I knew it about the CO2. But I wanted to bump it for a while just to ensure that I was not allowing it to be the limiting factor. It wasn't.

As for the lights... I've been running these 10,000K for a year and a half. And the plants DO grow. In fact, I've got it from an employee at one of the premier aquatic plant vendors to the USA market, that they use nothing but 10,000K lamps in their facility. So I'm not sure what the results are from any controlled tests of 10,000Ks against traditional plant lamps, but they DO grow plants. 

I use them because them make the blue discus look great. But they do wash out the plants. And now I see that they wash out the red discus too. And I've had them for a year and a half, normally they would be considered end-of-life, but I use such a short photo period I can probably get another six months out of them with no issue. But I do need to start looking for more lamps - something with nice red and blue peaks.

I started a thread here on that subject and got some response. But I was disappointed. I was hoping to get a bit more info on good red/blue MH lamps.


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## smoq

Your tank is amazing.I am lost with the amount of equipment you have, but when I saw the router hidden inside the stand I sai to myself "No way". If somebody on this forum ask what is high-tech tank, just give them link to this thread


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## Phil Edwards

Steve,

Have you considered keeping a batch of floaters in a separate tank to use as part of a nutrient/algae regimen? I did that with my old discus tank and it helped out a lot. When I started seeing evidence of nutrient imbalance I'd toss the floaters in there and they helped buffer things while I did the whole water change/light/CO2 management thing.


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## scolley

Phil Edwards said:


> Have you considered keeping a batch of floaters in a separate tank to use as part of a nutrient/algae regimen? I did that with my old discus tank and it helped out a lot.


What's a floater? I got some Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum) recently to provide a bit more ability to soak up excess nutrients, and provide a bit of overhead cover for the fish.

Is that what you are talking about Phil?



Thanks marcinsmok! But it's not a router, just a wifi access point, used a wifi client, so I don't have to run an patch cable into my stand - to connect the web server on my AquaController to my network. It get's even wackier when I pull up the controllers webpage on my iPhone, and manage and monitor my tank on my phone. :hihi: It's goofy. But convenient.


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## m.lemay

Hey Steve, The tank is looking good. 

Some things never change. Algae just never really goes away, does it? I haven't been here in a while and the first thing I noticed is the word algae is everywhere.:flick:


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## scolley

m.lemay said:


> Some things never change. Algae just never really goes away, does it?


Hey Marcel! Yea, it doesn't for me anyway...

If figure there are a few constants for me. I'll always be short. Women will never beat a fast path to my door (Not that that matters anymore), and my tanks will always have _some _form of algae.

Could be worse. :wink:


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## salth20

scolley,
Are you aware that one of the pics on page 1 is being used as customer testimonial at rfi? http://www.rfidiscus.com/dalis.html
I'm looking for a few new fish, and have been browsing the various dealers. Is this your testimonial, and do you recommend rfidiscus?
The tank still looks great. I'm in awe each time I come back and read the updates. You are a leader in HTFB's. Or is it HTPT's?


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## scolley

WOW! Thanks SO MUCH for bringing that to my attention!

I have never heard of those people, and am rather unhappy to see that they are using my tanks as an untrue representation of their products! I will definitely be in touch with rfidiscus. Or my lawyer will be. :wink: I kid you not. I submit photos to online forums for public consumption - I'm FINE with that. But I will not abide misrepresentation. Thank you for bringing that to my attention!

I do have very strong opinions about discus vendors. While I know that there are many good ones out there, there are three that I can recommend without reservation:

Kenny's Discus
Houston Aquarium Warehouse, also called Gulf Coast Discus
Discus-Hans

These three vendors represent - IMO - the best of the best in a number of ways. If you know something I know, and go somewhere else - God bless you. But truly I tell you, you CANNOT go wrong with these guys. That said, each has their strengths and weaknesses. And I will be happy to discuss those with anyone. But in PM's please.

Yet they are all SPECTACULAR. Don't get caught up in their web sites. Or not. Marketing fluff can never be trusted. Their proof is in their products, which are all consistently wonderful.


As for my "awe" inspiring tank, it's having trouble at the moment. I've allowed all my algae eating critters (shrimp, oto's, etc.) to all die off over time, and the tank shows it. I deliberately conducted this experiment, because I wanted to see how the tank would look after all the algae eaters died off. And guess what... ? It's not good.

So I've spent this evening acclimating a number of new inhabitants. Unfortunalely they are all little juveniles, and it will be a number of months before they make a difference. In the interim, I suppose I'll be trimming algae covered leaves more often than I would otherwise like.

Also - it's worth mentioning - I've been quietly conducting a little experiment for the last 18+ months...

I'm blessed with wonderful water. Low GH. Low KH. Just enough nitrates, phosphates, and potassium in it to feed plants. And pH of 7.0 if you don't mess with it. And I aspire to minimal maintenance tanks. So I've been trying for 18+ months to add nothing to my water but micros and potassium. No N. No P. And nothing to boost GH and KH beyond the natural 1.2 readings my water yields. And the long term result is...

It's not working.

So much to my chagrin, I'm doing regular fert dosing. And not with peristaltic pumps either! Just plain ole' dry ferts into the tank. :eek5:

It's not my intention to continue that forever. I'm just figuring out what works right for the plants - with my high discus load - before I automate it.

And while I have not updated it in over 6 months (busy with work - sorry), you can take a look at the website in my signature for pics of how the tank looks. It still looks pretty much like that now.

Cheers!


----------



## sewingalot

Scolley, I just wanted to say how much I enjoy your tank. I wish that I could only have a tank this good in the future. Also, your website www.wetplantlogic.com helped me a lot as a newbie and I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge with people like me that started out clueless.


----------



## scolley

Thanks sewingalot!

Honest to goodness, I go to the trouble specifically to assist people like yourself. And getting a little positive feedback every once in a while makes it all worth the trouble.

Thank you. :smile:


----------



## salth20

You are welcome. I have an enormous amount of respect for you. That is one reason I asked the question. Unfortunate for the company that misrepresents themselves, as I (and many just like me) purchase goods and services based on a level of trust and integrity. A company that does an honest business will usually succeed, just as you are succeeding by your sharing of good, honest information. I will check the links you gave. And again, if it hasn't been said enough already, what an incredible display of nature. :thumbsup:


----------



## Characins

Wow, why would a company do that?

You should definitely talk to them, don't let this just pass.

Good luck, and great aquarium!


----------



## scolley

Thanks salth20! Thanks Characins!

FWIW, I am in the process of getting that vendor to remove that image of my tank. If find it a little troubling that someone might see that tank, and believe it was a testimonial, when if fact it is either false advertising (at worst), or a mistake (at best).

I'll see that it gets removed. Thanks.


----------



## Pinto

Wow, that's the beautifulest discus tank i seen!!
Just jaw-dropping amazing.
Even the tank looks so amazing by itself!

I'm very curious to see how things go along with you and that fake site.


----------



## salth20

Well you must have made an impression on them. Your tank is no longer part of the customer testimonial. I would like to think that it was just a mistake, and not a misleading tactic by them.


----------



## jargonchipmunk

Yeah it's very possible that someone else decided to "testify" that it was their tank and they were just posting the beautiful tank someone submitted. Either way, it's off now.

By the way, when I win the lottery, will you come over and plumb my stand?


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## waterfaller1

Subscribed..gorgeous!:thumbsup: What are the small blue schooling fish? How come you say the tank is BB, but on the first page it looks like a sand bed?


----------



## kyle3

ok it took a few 2 hour sessions but i read it all (ok i skimmed a few spots :redface: )

As one of the many who have learned so much from your thread i have to say THANK YOU! 

Your tank is stunning! 

The fact that you've had a couple speed bumps with algae gives me hope; mainly reminding me I'm not a horrible "tank parent" for having occasional algae blooms :smile: . your openness is appreciated on many levels!

This thread has opened my eye's to possibilities for tanks i hadn't fathomed yet!

I've really enjoyed playing "Where's Waldo" with trooper too 

Thanks again! 
cheers-K


----------



## Phil Edwards

Hey Steve,

As a late answer to your question; yes, I was talking about floating plants like _Phylanthus_ or _Limnobium_.


----------



## Tex Gal

Your tanks are beautiful! How wonderful to be so DIY. How wonderful to know what DIY stuff you need. The guts of your tank look like a NASA project! I've enjoyed my visit!


----------



## scolley

Pinto said:


> Wow, that's the beautifulest discus tank i seen!!
> Just jaw-dropping amazing.


That's very kind. Thank you. But if you really look, there are nicer ones out there. Ones that make me feel like a chump. But i'm learning. :wink:



salth20 said:


> Well you must have made an impression on them. Your tank is no longer part of the customer testimonial. I would like to think that it was just a mistake, and not a misleading tactic by them.


YES! RFI did indeed take the pic down after a few email exchanges. And reasonably promply too, something I'm appreciative of. As to the mistake or misleading tactic question... who can know? But a quick google of the company will lead you to forums where you will see statements from people that will certainly make you wonder. Though to be sure, there is no way to know.



jargonchipmunk said:


> By the way, when I win the lottery, will you come over and plumb my stand?


You got it pal! All you've got to do is supply the tools, the beer, and let me put whatever I want in that stand. I'd be happy to have a "practice stand" to try out some of my - as yet untried - ideas!



waterfaller1 said:


> Subscribed..gorgeous!:thumbsup: What are the small blue schooling fish? How come you say the tank is BB, but on the first page it looks like a sand bed?


Thanks! But as for the BB, I suspect you saw that description on my quarentine/grow-out tank. My show tank - the Son of Kahuna - is definately sand. But it may not be long. I'm not happy with the sand, or at least its depth. I'm srongly considering changing it to just a dusting of sand. But that means I've got to attach moss to all of my pots so they won't show, 'cuz right now they are covered (hidden) by sand.




kyle3 said:


> The fact that you've had a couple speed bumps with algae gives me hope; mainly reminding me I'm not a horrible "tank parent" for having occasional algae blooms :smile: . your openness is appreciated on many levels!...I've really enjoyed playing "Where's Waldo" with trooper too


Thanks for that feedback. I often wonder if people really "get" whether or not I'm deliberately posting the good with the bad. So I'm happy that you know that... as it does none of us any good if the hobby continues to be represented by people's tendency to only show their tanks at their best. Here's to openess and honesty in our hobby... :thumbsup:

And thanks for the chuckle on "Where's Waldo"! It was indeed that with us too. Except at feeding time, of course. That was one gutsy little tetra!



Phil Edwards said:


> Hey Steve,
> 
> As a late answer to your question; yes, I was talking about floating plants like _Phylanthus_ or _Limnobium_.


Thanks Phil. I have since acquired and destroyed some Linmobium. Seems I would keep doing trim, the leaves would float to the top, and the Linmobium would get scooped up with everything else. Soon I had none. :icon_frow



Tex Gal said:


> Your tanks are beautiful! How wonderful to be so DIY. How wonderful to know what DIY stuff you need. The guts of your tank look like a NASA project! I've enjoyed my visit!


Thanks TexG! I'm very happy to have helped. But it really doesn't look quite so much like a NASA project if you can actually see in the stand. Photos of the stand with its doors open is a little like looking at an oil painting through a straw. It's hard to understand what you are looking at. But once you look at the whole painting, it all makes sense. Same here, but taking away that straw means sticking your head in the stand. And then it's "Oh yeah! Now I see! It's not really complicated, it's just there's a lot of things going on."


----------



## waterfaller1

Can you say what the little blue fish are?


----------



## scolley

waterfaller1 said:


> Can you say what the little blue fish are?


Paracheirodon simulans - Wikipedia explanation here - a tetra less common than cardinals or neons. Pretty much the same as a small neon, with no red coloration. Superb schoolers (for freshwater fish that is), and from my experience, fairly hardy.

You'll see them in a lot of Amano's tanks, I assume because he does not want reds in fish to visually compete with the green colors of the plants. If you want them, and find them, my advice is to get them. They are pretty hard to find in the states, and you don't know when another opportunity will arise.


----------



## waterfaller1

Thank you.:wink: Do you feel like most at SD, that juvie discus should grow out in a BB tank?


----------



## scolley

waterfaller1 said:


> Thank you.:wink: Do you feel like most at SD, that juvie discus should grow out in a BB tank?


Yes. And against conventional wisdom, I'm currently trying to grow out some 3+ inch fish in the SoK, and IMO it's not going well for those fish. They just need too much food, too often for a planted tank.

I'm learning the hard way I'm afraid. I would not recommend it to others.


----------



## kyle3

Scolly are you out there?

-K


----------



## scolley

kyle3 said:


> Scolly are you out there?
> 
> -K


Indeed I am. But only barely spending time on plants. And clearly no longer really involved in the forum discussions here. Thanks for asking though! You must have seen my recent post. :wink:

My camera died a number of months ago, so updates are tough. Bummer too ‘cuz the tank looks nice. Here’s a few pics from my iPhone. You can't tell it looks very good from these pics though. They look like crap, bad angle, bad focus, poor resolution and focus, lights of daylight reflecting on the tank. I know... lot's of excuses. But a taking some pics with a decent camera in appropriate lighting conditions would show a much better looking tank. But at least you know it’s still alive, not all algae infested, and growing. That’s yesterday’s NY Times on the tank, just so you know it really is a recent shot. :wink:




























After years on PT, as many of you know I moved on to discus. Or at least discus in planted tanks. I let learning discus consume most of my efforts, with plants tanking a back seat. A few months ago I even hosted the Northeast Discus Association’s Fall 2009 meeting in my home. 

After a few years of discus work, I’ve found that it’s much like plants - once you’ve got the basics down, your only limitation is the time you put in it. So I got bored with discus, and moved on to reef tanks. Here’s some iPhone pics of my first reef – a nano-reef. It was 6 months old two days ago.





























Both tanks are highly automated. The Son of Kahuna – the 180, takes almost no maintenance. About once a month I clean the glass, and once every six months I change a filter and replenish the micro ferts ( I don’t use macro!). And every 18 months change the MH bulbs. That’s it. Honest. I put an average of 45 minutes a month into that tank. Of course that does not include twice a day fish feeding.

The nano-reef – Kahuna’s Kid – is more work. Feeding is MUCH more work, ‘cuz the corals have different dietary needs, and different times a day that they have to be fed. And coralline algae (the purple stuff) has to be cleaned off the glass every couple of days. That’s just a reef tank fact of life. But all the other stuff is completely automated – topoff, water changes, dosing, you-name-it. Outside of feeding (the real PITA), I probably put 3 hours a week into that tank. Once it gets stable enough that I can stop water testing, that will fall down to about 1-2 hours a week.
So what next for the Kahunas? I wish I knew.

I was planning on converting the 180 to a reef – the Salty Kahuna, as it were. :icon_wink And then making the nano into a reef quarantine tank. But I’ve learned that all that glass cleaning (regularly removing coralline algae) on a 180g will be nuts. And the expense. OMG! You don’t want to know how expensive that little 29g is. If I told you, you probably would not believe me. It’s a lot. Even with re-use of things I already have, and seeding the tank with all the livestock and rock from the nano, a 180g reef would still be wicked expensive.

And the kicker is… my wife thinks the Son of Kahuna is much prettier than the reef!

So, I guess with a decent, large, very low maintenance planted discus tank… and a decent, healthy, low maintenance (relatively speaking) reef tank, maybe I’m in aquarium Nirvana now, and I’m just too bored to realize it. Time will tell.

How’s that for an update? Thanks for saying “hi”! :smile:




PS - If there are any "Tang Police" out there, fuming at those reef pics, you know who you are... and you can post your feelings here if it makes you feel better. But I'll not be responding to comments about the tang.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Steve Colley, you are under arrest for the keeping of a Yellow Tang in a tank of insufficient length for it to properly cruise in search of food. You are hereby required to remit said aquarium into the custody of Phil Edwards until such time as it is deemed you are fit to care for such an aquarium. What's that magnificent blue coral in the back? Is it a coral or a clam? I can't tell but the color's amazing. The Mrs. has expressed interest in exploring the reef hobby. We may be hitting you up for some frags and advice in the future. 


Love the Kid and Son, they're both beautiful! Is that a huge A. hastifolia I see growing out of the discus tank? That's really nice! I completely understand the whole boredom thing. I think that's why some of us get multiple tank syndrome, we've got to have something to tinker with. Well done on both tanks my friend. Keep in touch!

Phil


----------



## Gatekeeper

Steve! Great to see the Kahuna is kicking! I thought it was a reef casualty for sure. Glad to see you in a good spirits and working the high tech world.

Keep up the good work. Truly an inspiration for the new and the old to the hobby as always.


----------



## hydrophyte

Those tanks are both gorgeous. I remember Son of Kahuna back when I was just lurking here. Those discus must be an amazing display.


----------



## kyle3

Thanks for the wonderful update!

Strangely enough i didn't see your recent post until after i asked if you were around. I was looking thru my subscription list and wanted to see what was new with your tank. but i did see that great thread you commented on a little later- nice tank: you're an inspiration 

i love the reef but i think u're smart to keep it smaller- I've been working 1 day a week at an LFS and learning the reef "ropes"; high maintenance is the name of the game. 

by the way you're wife has great taste- and it's always rewarding to say you've sustained a healthy tank over a long period of time- those fish are growing nicely too.

cheers-K


----------



## 2wheelsx2

Seems to be a natural progression to go from fish to planted to reef. I know that's the next thing I want to tackle - a smallish reef tank (thinking 75 gallons though. ).


----------



## lauraleellbp

Those discus are amazing.

I refer people to this thread all the time, it's such a classy build and tank!


----------



## billb

Hey Steve
Son of Kahuna still looks great! a testament to good design! I have a question, I believe you have brass check valves on your dosing lines - do you have any problems with corrosion? I have had to replace two for that reason. I found a place in Minneapolis that will custom make plastic check valves with lot's of options for connection types, cracking pressure etc. But they have a minimum order and before I pull the trigger on a lifetime supply I thought I would see if you had any suggestions.

The reef tank is awesome. 

Bill


----------



## scolley

Phil Edwards said:


> Steve Colley, you are under arrest for the keeping of a Yellow Tang in a tank of insufficient length for it to properly cruise in search of food. You are hereby required to remit said aquarium into the custody of Phil Edwards until such time as it is deemed you are fit to care for such an aquarium. What's that magnificent blue coral in the back? Is it a coral or a clam? I can't tell but the color's amazing. The Mrs. has expressed interest in exploring the reef hobby. We may be hitting you up for some frags and advice in the future.
> 
> 
> Love the Kid and Son, they're both beautiful! Is that a huge A. hastifolia I see growing out of the discus tank? That's really nice! I completely understand the whole boredom thing. I think that's why some of us get multiple tank syndrome, we've got to have something to tinker with. Well done on both tanks my friend. Keep in touch!
> 
> Phil


Phil! Dude, you definitely make the rounds in forums. LOL! Nothing misses your gaze...

I gotta go post on your killer new tank. I'm jealous, but thrilled for you. roud: And that stuff poking up is primarily plain ole' Anubias barteri (not v nana) with a some Anubias barteri v angustifolia mixed in. I LOVE the angustifolia! It's that long Anubias that you can see. WOW, what an easy to keep plant. Shoulda' discovered that a long time ago.

That "magnificent blue coral" in the back is actually green with blue highlights in normal daylight. My actinics were on for this pic. And that coral is a Lithophyllon sp., a form of the more popular "Chalice" corals. And that thing is a vicious beast. I put a new SPS coral next to it and within 30 minutes it had spewed so much chemical evil that everything downstream of it was bleached snow white. So I'm kind of amazed the Malaysian open brain coral - Symphyllia agaricia - to the left of it is slowly digesting it. I need to break those two apart. They're both just too aggressive.

And I told you, I will not discuss the tang. :biggrin:





gmccreedy said:


> Steve! Great to see the Kahuna is kicking! I thought it was a reef casualty for sure. Glad to see you in a good spirits and working the high tech world.


Hey Glenn! Good to hear from you buddy. :icon_wink Thanks for saying hi.





hydrophyte said:


> Those tanks are both gorgeous. I remember Son of Kahuna back when I was just lurking here. Those discus must be an amazing display.


Actually I sold my biggest and best discus, because I was funding my purchase of reef stuff for the 180. That was before I figured out how much work and expense it would be, and now instead of more discus, I've got a garage full of dry reef rock and monster used reef equipment. 

I know it's off topic, but I gotta share the fact that in testing one used pump, I came to the VERY real understanding that 3,600 gph is a WHOLE LOT of water. NOT a hose you want to get in front of! :biggrin:





kyle3 said:


> Thanks for the wonderful update!
> 
> Strangely enough i didn't see your recent post until after i asked if you were around. I was looking thru my subscription list and wanted to see what was new with your tank. but i did see that great thread you commented on a little later- nice tank: you're an inspiration
> 
> i love the reef but i think u're smart to keep it smaller- I've been working 1 day a week at an LFS and learning the reef "ropes"; high maintenance is the name of the game.
> 
> by the way you're wife has great taste- and it's always rewarding to say you've sustained a healthy tank over a long period of time- those fish are growing nicely too.
> 
> cheers-K


Well your timing is spooky Kyle. Glad you did though. Thanks.

And indeed, reefs are a LOT of work. But I'm working REAL hard on minimizing that. And IMO have done a pretty good job. One I get all my rockwork completely covered up with nice purple coralline algae, I'm gonna try backing off on the parameters enough to reduce coralline growth and still keep the corals happy. If I can do that (reducing coralline cleaning) I'll definitely reconsider the 180 as a reef.





2wheelsx2 said:


> Seems to be a natural progression to go from fish to planted to reef. I know that's the next thing I want to tackle - a smallish reef tank (thinking 75 gallons though. ).


Actually that progression was a little out of kilter for me. It was plants (with fish) to plants with Discus (just to make it harder!), and then reefs. Shoulda' started with fish. But like any newbie, I didn't know what I was doing. 

IMO a 75g would be a wonderful size for a reef. Mine's a 29g. Too small. a 75 gives you room for corals to grow, and you will not impact your water chemistry as bad when you take water out of your tank to acclimate new fauna. That's the PITA on a 29g... when I take a gallon or so out of the tank for that, replacing that with salt water CHANGES the water chemistry. So you have to be real careful. With a 75g you'll only have to be half as careful. roud:





lauraleellbp said:


> Those discus are amazing.
> 
> I refer people to this thread all the time, it's such a classy build and tank!


Thank you most kindly Laura. Good to hear from you!





billb said:


> Hey Steve
> Son of Kahuna still looks great! a testament to good design! I have a question, I believe you have brass check valves on your dosing lines - do you have any problems with corrosion? I have had to replace two for that reason. I found a place in Minneapolis that will custom make plastic check valves with lot's of options for connection types, cracking pressure etc. But they have a minimum order and before I pull the trigger on a lifetime supply I thought I would see if you had any suggestions.
> 
> The reef tank is awesome.
> 
> Bill


Bill! How are you bud?

I have not had a peep of trouble out of those valves. I got them from Rex Grigg. Or maybe they're corroded, and I don't know it. But I doubt it cuz' they aren't leaking, and the one fert pump I still use (micros only) still works.



Twas indeed good to hear from everyone. Thank you!

Sorry those Kahuna pics look so crappy. It is actually aquascaped, but it's VERY natural, and not even trying to look manicured. Not that I don't think manicured tanks look better. I do. I'd prefer one. But more than that I prefer a tank that I can ignore... and that's what I've got. It's kinda the choice between spending many hours a week (every week) on a tank that makes people come in the room and go "Wow!", and a tank that they say "Oh, I like your aquarium" instead.

For now I'm happy with the latter, since it only takes an hour a month. Leaves more time to feed those *#**! corals.


----------



## Phil Edwards

scolley said:


> Phil! Dude, you definitely make the rounds in forums. LOL! Nothing misses your gaze...


I'm unemployed and have given up multiplayer computer gaming so I'm bored with nothing to do. The forums are all that's keeping me (semi) sane these days.  

Would you PM me how much you paid for that Chalice and how long ago you got it? They seem to be going for insane prices these days and I'm finding myself getting more and more interested in LPS. 

Regards,
Phil


----------



## CL

Got an update, Steve? I hope you haven't converted Son of Kahuna into a reef (well, it would be a sick reef, I have to admit)

Either way, How's the tank doin'?


----------



## scolley

Wow! Have I ever been away from here too long!

CL - I see you've got almost 8,000 posts, and I've got no clue who you are! Wow. Too long away...

I need to post some updated pics. Tanks doin' fine. Fish are fine. In fact, I'm in the middle of one of my uber infrequent maintenance events as I type this. I'm waiting for the acrylic cleaner to dry, so I can buff it off, and then do an algae scrape knowing the exterior surface is clean.

I AM seriously considering cutting over to a reef. I've got the return pump, the skimmer, the ATO, a whole bunch of Vortech pumps, several 250/400 switchable metal halide ballasts, and am picking up a 3x250w MH + 8x 39w T5 light in a couple of weeks. Oh, and I didn't mention a TON of high quality dry rock, and another 75 lbs live rock living in shallow trays. So yeah... reef is coming soon.

But in the interim, it's still a planted discus tank and I need to post some pics. Sorry.

And I'm going through the whole acrylic cleaning thing because I need to do a surface algae scrape. It's not bad, but I haven't done it in 6 or 7 weeks, and you can see it on the glass (acrylic). I'm cleaning the outside first because I've already got a HUGE honkin' Magnavore magnetic cleaner. And their magnets are SO powerful that if even a little piece of grundu gets under that outside magnet, it's gonna really gouge the acrylic.

And why have I switched from my old inside acrylic sponge algae cleaner to this. No surprise - 'cuz this is what I'm gonna need to keep the coralline algae off the tank when it's a reef.


Thanks for asking! Pics soon. I promise.


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Good to see you Steve! Wow!! Its been a long time. 

What do you use to clean the outside of your tank with?Tools,cleaners? DO you buff the whole thing down with a powered buffer or something?

-Orlando


----------



## scolley

Orlando! Long time no communicate. Congratulations on the obvious success of a clearly wonderful business! roud:

I've been really fortunate in keeping the exterior of my tank nearly pristine. The inside - I'm sure - is all chewed up by my BN plecos and stuff. But as we all know, it's pretty hard to see those interior scratches once they are filled with water. Lucky me. 

For the outside of the tank I periodically wipe the exterior down with a clean, soft cloth. That's the 15 second prep for surface cleaning - getting dust, cat hair, etc. off. Then I use a large (clean!) micro fiber cloth to apply a moderate coat of "GEL-GLOSS" from TR Industries. It's just an all-purpose fiberglass, marble, and acrylic cleaner/filler/polisher. Does a FABULOUS job...

I let a thin coat dry to a dull haze for about 10 minutes, and then come back and buff it off with a 2nd (clean!) micro fiber cloth. I don't do it any more often than every few months. But it works great.

The PITA about potentially turning Son of Kahuna into Salty Kahuna is that you've got to clean coralline algae off 1-3 times a week to keep on top of it. You can wait longer with glass, where you can go at it with hard-core scraping tools. But with acrylic you have to remove it while it's still a light "dust", and that means doing it often. And with acrylic - if you don't want to ruin it - means cleaning the outside surface first.

This consideration alone - frequent acrylic surface cleaning - is the ONE thing that is keeping me from jumping headlong into the conversion. In other words - I'm definitely doing it, but I MAY sell the Kahuna and buy a glass tank.

Don't want to do that though. I'm definitely emotionally - and esthetically - attached to my "Kahuna"s. :smile:


----------



## CL

haha, being a member of the "mosaic" generation, generation y, or almost the "google generation", compared to your posts, it's no surprise that mine are usually brief, which is how I've accumulated almost 8,000 posts so quick.
That and the fact that I'm on TPT 75% of my free time at home.

It sounds like you aren't just _considering_ a reef tank, you're building up a stockpile because you've already made your mind up  

Several vortechs- wow, I could only imagine. I think that it would be fun just to see the flow pattern that several vortechs working together could make on a tank this size.

It should be neat. Hopefully you will continue with updates on your blog, or maybe reef central or some other forum, because it does sound fun!


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Steve, it will be sad to see fresh Kahuna go, but we welocme salty Kahuna just as much and I can only imagine how sweet it will be when done. You realize you will have to post your build of Salty Kahuna someplace on PTF


----------



## 2wheelsx2

Good to see you post, Steve. The scratching issue is the reason I'm not going to get an acrylic big tank in the near future now. I watched this thread with great interest and will be incorporating (already have) some features into a new in-wall build. However, I've caught the pleco bug and particularly like big Panaque, so acrylic is no-no.


----------



## mysticalnet

crazy tank............. nice!


----------



## A Hill

Steve it's great to see the tank is still alive and you're still keeping aquariums with something interesting in them, be it fresh or salt water going into the future!

Oh the things I've learned on these Kahuna threads... for example, I'll never use anything to hold cardboard in the tank when placing substrate :hihi:

Good to see you around,
-Andrew


----------



## sewingalot

You've got to stay with plants! Your blog is the reason I even found the planted tank exciting. Hope all is well with you and your family.


----------



## DiscusLoverJeff

Hello,

After seeing your amazing tank, I wanted to know if this setup was indeed still active and could you post some current photos?

What an amazing aquarium!!

I di not know you could run metal halides with discus and plants, but you are proof that you can!


----------



## lauraleellbp

I so hope you haven't taken this tank over to "the dark side" and it's still planted... :hihi:

I'd also love to see some recent pics!


----------



## scolley

Holey moley! Honest to goodness it's hard to believe anyone is still following this tired old thread. ;-)

But thanks for the bump Laura. It's always wonderful to connect with old friends. So, that said... What's up with the Kahuna? Lemme try...

The tank is pretty much planted tank nirvana. That is if nirvana means "hands off" to you, as it does to me. So what does nirvana mean? As follows:

1) 180g tank
2) 6-8 adult to sub-adult discus
3) 50% water change every 3-4 days
4) 2 x 150watt mh lights, ADA lamps
5) water change water containing 0.7 ppm PO4 and 12 ppm NO4. PO4 unknown.
6) HEAVILY planted by ANY standard. I mean HEAVY.
7) standard clean up crew: Cory cats (5), snail eaters (5 biota striata), shrimp (20+ amanos, 200+ cherries).
8) No CO2

I have not touched my 180 in months. Honest.

There IS some GSA on the glass (acrylic), but at three feet from the tank you can't see it. So who cares?

I put new tetra color bits in the eheim feeder that hangs over the tank every few weeks. And I drop a frozen blood worm cube in the tank every morning and evening. That maintenance schedule does not include filter and lighting bulb changes.

But honest to goodness... Does it get any easier? That's why I haven't been posting... This hobby gives me a beautiful tank to marvel at in my home, and takes almost no effort to keep it that way.

Does it get any better?

I'll try to get off my tuchus and get some pics.

Cheers!


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## 2wheelsx2

scolley said:


> But honest to goodness... Does it get any easier? That's why I haven't been posting... This hobby gives me a beautiful tank to marvel at in my home, and takes almost no effort to keep it that way.
> 
> Does it get any better?
> 
> I'll try to get off my tuchus and get some pics.
> 
> Cheers!


A hands off Discus tank. An amazing achieving no matter how you look at it. I just started my foray into discus and have been doing massive water changes every other day, so you're my hero!


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## waterfaller1

Patiently waiting for the pics.:icon_smil Wow, missed the son of Kahuna...gorgeous! Let me know when that turquoise plate gets out of hand.:biggrin:


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## Aquaticz

Awesome work.
Your techie skills remind me of someone I know named Giancarlo. How you came up with it I have no idea, when I do I'll feel like a pro...lol
Really nice dude


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## 04100824

This tank is insane! My jaw literally dropped. Kudos!


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## Mxx

Noooo! I was just skimming through some of your threads lately for the first time when I came across the latter parts where you suggested that you were going to dismantle it and do a reef instead! Bad idea! Especially with an acrylic tank! Much better to just keep this one as is and get a new glass tank for you reef so this one doesn't get scratched up so easily.  But as those posts were a bit old this all may be a foregone thing... 

Your tank and the details of your set-up are definitely an inspiration to what I'm planning. I don't suspect that I'll be able to achieve as good of a look though. As much as I love the white sand, isn't that an utter PITA to keep clean? Especially if manual cleaning was what you were trying to avoid? I'll have to read through these threads more carefully in case this issue is covered somewhere there. I was thinking mostly black sand and foreground carpet to keep mulm out of sight. And I would probably be choosing to go with a 3D background, which might not need to be scrubbed like glass in order to look decent. 

And as much as I'd like to do a 30" deep by 30" wide 72" long tank tank, I'm rather concerned that maintenance would be a bother if I can't readily reach anywhere in the tank by hand without a snorkel. 

In any case, if you do happen to do a major reef tank then would you also be doing that as a planted tank? With red and green macroalgae and seagrass in order to give it a bit of extra colour and water chemistry balance? That's what I was looking at doing, (before I decided to pursue a planted discus tank instead), as I didn't want to depend upon success with very labour intensive invertebrates alone to define the tank's aesthetics, and wanted something that looked vibrant and colourful instead of being mostly just piles of live rock.


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## Da Plant Man

I demand a update. I want to "automate" a 48g here, but not nearly to the effect you have. AMAZING!

-Caton


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## scolley

Ok. I should do some pics. But I'm not sure it would be fair... Here's why.

We're having a superbowl party this weekend, and i figured I'd better get off my butt and tend to the tank. Especially since it about 12 away from the big tv screen that everyone is going to be staring at. Not to mention the fact that the 300 watts of metal halides will be providing the lion's share of room illumination until around 4th quarter. ;-) So I dis maintenance last night. What did tha entail?

45 minutes cleaning the acrylic. It wasn't a problem to begin with. At 8 feet away IMO it was impossible to see algae. Now it's gone from one foot away. And cleaning would have been MUCH faster on a glass tank. I had to clean the outside of the tank first (to use magnetic scrapers). And even the I needed to come back with a single pass on the inside with a hand pad, 'cuz even the best magnetic scrapers only get you 95%
there. And finally... And scraping down at the bottom near sand on an acrylic tank takes special care.

After that I had to trim.

I spent a good 30 minutes trimming dead/old/deformed/pinholes leaves. Please keep in mind... My tank is low maint BECAUSE I underfertilize. A consequence of that is some leaves looking starved... Because they are. But a quick trim takes all of that away. And honestly... It's not that much. It's just that a 180g tank has a LOT of leaves.

And finally I had to trim me Tiawan moss. It was trying to take over the tank. I grabbed many huge clumps, shook them to get any shrimp to flee, and squeezed out their water before discarding the moss. And still I'm sure I tossed out many, many pounds of moss.

THAT is why I'm hesitant to post pics. Does the tank look good now? Sure! And it didn't look bad two days ago either. But better for the maintenance to be sure.

But the real question is... After pulling out so much bioload (moss) will it maintain it's low maintenance requirements? Hard to say.

But I'll post some pics... FWIW

;-)


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## lauraleellbp

*sigh* Waiting on a perfectionist is like waiting on Godot...

:flick::bounce:


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## JamesHockey

Whoa! Should have raok'd the moss out!!


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


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## Rion

I'm excited to see the update pics, I remember when you were starting this tank a few years back and all the beautiful discus it holds.


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## Da Plant Man

I envy you.

-Caton


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## Jackfrost

Steve !

Looking good. :icon_lol:


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## Oqsy

Yo stevie!!! I'm back!! Great site and pics!

I'll fill you in on details soon. Great to see my hero is still at it


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## acitydweller

OMG, this raises the bar on anything called "high tech"... Awesome project!


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## scolley

I guess it really is time for an update now...

The Son of Kahuna has come to an end - or at least as a large planted discus tank. There was kind of a cascading chain of events that lead to the death of all the discus. All "natural" in a manner of speaking.

At its high point the tank had 15+ discus. My original 8 Blue Turqs, two other adults and some juvenile reds and whites. The whites were never healthy, in fact the breeder - a rather famous one - really didn't want to sell them because he knew they were not a strong blood line. Well he was right. In a tank with larger fish they were constantly picked on, along with the smaller red juveniles. But as long as I had a big enough group of fish, they could still sneak in for a bit of food.

But then my older fish started dying. One by one over the last 14-16 months they started going - apparently old age. I'm sure with better care they could have lived longer. But 8+ years isn't bad. But the group getting smaller was real bad news for the juveniles. With fewer adults at feeding the smallest could never get enough to eat and would be constantly picked on - stressed - and eventually die. And then the next smallest became the new target of aggression and food deprecation. It was a vicious cycle that left me with the largest red, no whites, and a shrinking set of adults.

A number of months ago the last adult died. Leaving the one lonely sub-adult red. It just sat in one spot in the tank, listless with no social interaction. I was planning to resurrect the tank in some form, but was pretty much ignoring it until I got my little 33g reef tank stabilized.

After a number of months though, the red died too. Honestly I don't know why. Lack of interaction? Possibly a pathogen in the tank that I was not aware of? That the adults were not dying of old age but eventually succumbing to something? I don't think so, but the death of the young, healthy red certainly raises that question. And BTW, it was a beautiful, fat, healthy fish until the end. So it was a surprise.

Anyway, I forgot about the fact that I did the big trim at the superbowl party half a year ago. That's about all the maintenance the tank has gotten in a year. Now it's overgrown with Taiwan moss, has huge (huge) anubias leaves growing out the top, and an explosion of cherry shrimp. And glass (acrylic) that has not been cleaned of algae in a LONG time.

It's looked better. 

I could have put more discus in as the adults started dropping off, but I'm tired of discus. Beautiful fish, but finicky and not real robust. And they require too many small feedings through out the day. 

So I've decided that I've got to do something new with the tank. And that's going to mean doing a LOT of catching up with what's going on in the planted tank world. I've really been away for years, so I re-introduced myself here.

I've decided that I want to rescape the tank in some low maintenance form. My reef tank sucks up plenty of maintenance time each week. And I've learned that I just have low tolerance for aquatic gardening. I'm OK with a trim every 4-6 months, but that's about it.

So I've got to start trolling here, re-learning old stuff, and finding out what the current practices are. 'Cuz the Kahuna's gonna get an overhaul. 

Pics SOON I promise. But don't hold your breath. It's not pretty.


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## waterfaller1

Wow..old thread. Popped up in my e-mail. Sorry about your losses. I can't wait to see what you do next.:icon_cool


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## Chyrol

I can't wait to see where you take this tank! Sorry to hear about the problems you had, but at least now you get a fun opportunity to re-start it and try something different. Best of luck!


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## scolley

waterfaller1 said:


> Sorry about your losses.


Thanks. But it really wasn't a "loss".

Like I said, I could have replaced the aging discus. But honestly the tank had served it's purpose, I wanted to prove that I could create a lovely, low maintenance, planted discus tank. And I did. But over time (years) I came to the conclusion that I would prefer different fish. I think discus are awesome beautiful. But between their health issues (due to too much inbreeding) and their need for many small feedings a day, I was ready for different fish. So I was really waiting for old age to take out my adults.

This is just an opportunity to do something new. Question is, what?


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## Da Plant Man

HE'S ALIVE! I thought you went with lonesome George. 

You should do something epic. Thats what you should do.

I have read through this journal a few times and I love it. You have a gift 
Can't wait to see what you do with the tank now.

-Caton


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## scolley

*The Son of Kahuna now...*

OK, here's a pic. Bad glare, but it's not like it matters. As I indicated, there's just not that much to see. Moss. Big leaves out the top. Algae on the acrylic. That's what happens when you don't clean or prune a tank for 1/2 a year. :hihi:










Oh, and see those black things to the left in the tank? Those are heaters! That's upsetting because I worked so hard to keep equipment out of the tank. But one of my P.O.S. Pentair Heater Modules sprung a leak!!! Spontaneously. I had not touched the tank in months (other than to put in food) and one day I'm looking at water all over the floor!!! Took forever to find the leak. Fortunately my plumbing is complex enough that with the turning of a couple ball valves I was easily able divert the flow around the heaters. But that meant dropping heaters in the tank until I had the time to do a big rip-and-replace.

That was month's ago. I held off until I was absolutely certain that I was not going to convert the tank salt water of some form. That decision made - primarily due to cost, but also because of the need to have a large salt reservoir and mixing station somewhere near by - I guess it's now time to fix it.

Oh yeah... it's worth noting, that's the 2nd time one of my P.O.S. Pentair Heater Modules sprung a leak. The first time it was in a place that was easy to patch. This is not. Between those two incidents, and the first Pentair UV module that arrived broken, and I will never, ever, ever by a Pentair product again.


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## scolley

Da Plant Man said:


> You have a gift


Oh yeah? That's pretty funny - you said that before I posted the latest pic above. :wink:

Thanks though Caton. It may as well be a blank slate now, just got to decide what to draw.


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## FWKiller

mmm its funny what you are dismissing as a neglected disaster is basically my dream tank. A lush, wild moss scape on a grand scale with tiny shrimp exploring every inch of it. A little cleaning, some trimming and add a few dozen tiny fish and you have the tank I've been dreaming of since I first discovered wild mosquito fish and ghost shrimp in a ditch near my childhood home after a heavy rain. One man's trash is another man's treasure. I've admired Son of Kahuna for a while now and I'm looking forward to whats next for it. Thanks for sharing it with us.


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## scolley

FWKiller said:


> mmm its funny what you are dismissing as a neglected disaster is basically my dream tank...


I'm assuming you mean without the algae on the sides and the dead leaves hanging out the top. 

Radioman said he liked it too. Which is kind of surprising because it really looks like a mess to me. But you guys have inspired me to do a little experiment...

The pic I showed was exactly as I described it, a tank that had zero maintenance in half a year. But it would be interesting to see what it might look like with a little maintenance. Not much, just a glass clean, anubias trim. Maybe some light moss trimming. Would be kind of fun if the aquatic jungle can be tamed just a bit.

Don't get me wrong, I'm rescaping. But depending on how it looks after a minor cleanup, the current form could wind up playing a part in the new incarnation. Let's see how it looks...


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## FWKiller

yes! A little cleaning, some trimming and a few photos before you tear down and rebuild would be awesome. How difficult is it to clean the acrylic with out scratching it? The prospect of ending up with a hazy tank scared me out of buying one (howbeit a much smaller one) a while back but yours still looks crystal clear.


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## scolley

FWKiller said:


> How difficult is it to clean the acrylic with out scratching it?


IMO it's a stupid amount of work. I really regret getting such a large acrylic tank. The work it takes to clean the sides is a part of why I'm so dead set on a low maintenance scape...

One option is to take a credit card and and use it as an algae scraper. That works but it's an up-on-a-chair-or-stepladder with arms-deep-in-the-water exercise, that invariably drips water on the outside of the tank. And getting the outside of the tank clean is so much work that I just go ahead and use the alternate method most of the time.

That's using a magnetic scraper (big, expensive scraper for 3/4" acrylic). But that requires cleaning the outside first, lest you scrape it up. So I begin by wiping the outside down with RO/DI water on a clean microfiber cloth. Then drying it with a few more clean microfiber cloths. Then applying a coat of Gel-Gloss acrylic cleaner/polish with another microfiber cloth. Wait 10 minutes, and then buff it all off with a final, clean, microfiber cloth. And THEN - and only then - do I feel it's safe to pull the magnet across the surface for scraping. It is a major PITA.

But the tank is indeed scratched up. But only on the inside, so when it's filled with water you don't see it. Well I guess "scratched" is the wrong word, it's "hazed" or "crazed". My Bristlenose pleco's did that for me. But that was a sacrifice I was willing to make to reduce tank wall cleaning. But when that hazing happens, you lose the lovely reflections off walls that you see in many planted tank photographs. It's a compromise.


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## Sleek1607

+1 This tank has technical prowess unlike any I've ever seen.
Great job!

I wouldn't even dreamed of hooking it all to a router >_>


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## Obakemono

Like others have said right now the tank looks like it could use a trim, add about 100 Neons and let it go. I wish I had Anubis that big. Dang!


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## scolley

Well, as it turns out I spoke too soon. The original aquascape was actually decent enough (IMHO  ) that a good trim shows that there was indeed a lot still to work with. Well I say a good trip - more like the beginning of a good trim. Yesterday took a machete to the jungle growing out the top, and began the process of ripping moss out. Was a PITA separating the cherries from the moss too.

Everywhere the moss was in contact with the sandy bottom was a ton of mulm. And though I tried to gravel vac it out, there was just too much for one trim. So I think this effort will have to be spread over a couple more weekends. Plus it kicked up so much in the water that I seem to have hit the threshold for my filters. Those haven't been changed in a year or so, so there's another delay.

But within a couple of weeks should have some interesting pics. 

Yet even if I leave this scape basically intact, it was designed with discus in mind, and has a few features that I think I'd like to modify. But let me get it to a good "post trimming" state first - in a couple of weeks.


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## Mxx

Hey Steve, Son of Kahuna update looks... well that's looking quite rough actually!... 

Understandable, that happens. You're looking for ideas for a reboot though?? Okay, here is my suggestion then, go with a quasi Congo Basin/River Niger biotope. Get mainly Congo Tetras, Butterflyfish, Leafish, Synodontis, Cichlids, etc. And as you're not big on intensive maintenance water-changes and dosing nowadays with the reef tank getting all the love, then take out that substrate and put in an enriched MTS underlay. Go low-tech low-maintenance. Lose the metal halides and DIY LED's around the front and side edges on a metal frame to halve your energy bills, prevent all that light spill, and really make the iridescence of Congo Tetras pop. And build up the rear wall of the tank with a 3D background of some manner so that you can plant the entire height of it to create a planted rear wall. 

That's what I'd do if were you, and thanks previously for the advice you'd given to me yourself!


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## scolley

Mxx said:


> Hey Steve, Son of Kahuna update looks... well that's looking quite rough actually!...


Hey, candor is always appreciated Mxx! It does indeed look rough.

However, after trimming I've rediscovered how much I like the underlying aquascape. It's just WAY grown in now, so a few judicious trimmings, plus a discreet addition of a plant or two may just turn it around. So I've done the initial trim. Have started stocking with new fish. And have just a few plants on order.

Thanks for the good suggestions! Frankly that sounds like a really nice biotope. But I've already started stocking, not really paying attention to any particular biotope. So I've missed that boat I'm afraid.

I like the rear wall idea though. That could look great. Going to have the mull that one over for a while - thank you!

As for the LED's, I've already got DIY LED's on my reef tank. Honestly, I went full goose bozo on making sure that little DIY project turned out to look professionally done. And I think I came pretty close. But it also taught me a lot about DIY LED, and doing it right - IMO - takes time and money. So I'll not be doing that immediately. However, as those two $80 ADA MH bulbs start to age, I'm definately going to be thinking that tossing $160 into replacement bulbs that only last 9-18 months is throwing good money after bad. I'm sure at replacement time that DIY LED option is going to be looking a lot better. Thanks.


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## scolley

Sleek1607 said:


> I wouldn't even dreamed of hooking it all to a router >_>


Thanks. But I'm not actually using it as a router. I'm using it as a wifi antennae adapter. Or WAS. At the time I set the tank up wifi gaming adapters weren't commonly on the market. But now their everywhere. And as a matter of fact I've pulled that router and replaced it with a little Netgear gaming adapter.



Obakemono said:


> ...add about 100 Neons and let it go. I wish I had Anubis that big. Dang!


I used to have 70 or so Green Tetras (actually blue colored), but they've long since all died of old age. But I've got one order of Rummynoses in the tank, and another order on the way. I got the cheap, wild caught one - not the expensive tank raised ones - and had a pretty big die off the first 24-36 hours. Don't know what I'll see on this forthcoming 2nd order. I'm guessing I'll wind up with between 60 and 80.

And you should see the ROOTS on that anubias! Monster roots.


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## pawslover

scolley said:


> But the tank is indeed scratched up. But only on the inside, so when it's filled with water you don't see it. Well I guess "scratched" is the wrong word, it's "hazed" or "crazed". My Bristlenose pleco's did that for me. But that was a sacrifice I was willing to make to reduce tank wall cleaning. But when that hazing happens, you lose the lovely reflections off walls that you see in many planted tank photographs. It's a compromise.


Thanks for the heads up. I have a 55 acrylic that I picked up on CL for dirt cheap & now I know why. I spent as much on acrylic buffing stuff as I did on the tank, stand & canopy  It looks fine now, but I won't buy another one. I just picked up a group of ABN & thought about splitting them up & putting half in the 55, but I think they'll stay in the glass tank. I do have some otos in the acrylic tank & so far haven't noticed any scratching/haziness from their efforts to keep it clean.


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## 2wheelsx2

Otos can't only pick off soft algae so they'll be fine. BNP's and most of the awfuchs eaters have very advanced scraping teeth which will haze up acrylic very quickly. Better off to stick with the meat eating plecos in an acrylic tank, but then that won't help your algae problem.


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## scolley

*Stupid amount of repair work - my rant*

If you don't like rants, then please skip this post...

I just spent a silly amount of time getting the tank plumbing and electrical system back in order.

I mentioned earlier that one of my Pentair heater units started leaking. It leaked - slow, slow drip - from where the main light blue tube is inserted in the dark blue base. Fortunately I've got unions and ball valves everywhere in the tank, so with a few ball valves turned, and unions unscrewed, and a little too much cursing, was eventually able to extract all four Pentair units (three heaters, one UV) from the stand.

In the process I learned a valuable bit of info. Though Pentair sells horizontal mounting hardware - which I use - it's not necessarily the best orientation for the units. I drained all the water out before I began removal. But mounted horizontally, about 1/3 of the water they hold does not drain. It pools in the unit. So extraction was a very wet and messy process. Though I would never recommend these products to anyone, if you do buy them, you should consider vertical mounting if you don't want a mess during maintenance.

Once I got the units out I discovered that 2 out of the 3 heater units were broken. There is a small diameter tube inside the larger tube of the unit, that is used to channel the inflowing water to the top (or far end if horizontally mounted) of the unit, so that the water flows along the length of the heater before it flows out the bottom. On 2 heaters these tubes had come detached from where they attach to the base inside the unit. Upon inspection it appears that Pentair had originally attached them with something that looked like rubber cement, a glue that degrades over time. I determined the parts were actually ABS plastic, and used ABS cement to glue them back and got what feels like a really strong bond. They'll hold now!

Likewise the UV was also coming apart. Inside the main tube is a long sheet of plastic that is rolled up and against the walls of the larger tube. It appears to be an extra thickness of plastic to keep light from leaving the main light blue body of the unit. Whatever the purpose, it was coming unstuck from the tube. Again, ABS cement solved that problem.

As for the leak - where the main blue body tube is inserted in the blue base - I was shocked at what I found. From the brown glue residue where the two pieces join, it looked like the same glue I found to have failed on the inside of the heaters. I took a dremmel with a grinding bit and ground down the seam where the large tube was inserted into the base. My intent was to expose fresh, clean unglued plastic on both pieces to cement over the seam. To my shock just the lightest grinding exposed unglued gaps between the large tube and the base. It's as if when Pentair built these things they just inserted the big tube in the base and ran a bead of glue around the join. That's as opposed to covering the inside and outside with glue (cement) and then insterting one into the other - as you would to get a strong seal with PVC. I was shocked, and decided that if this leak could happen to one unit, it could happen to all of them.

But foolish me... when I removed them from the stand, I lost track of which heater was the one that leaked. I could only narrow it down to one of two. So for those two I ground down that join and applied a generous amount of multi-purpose cement (PVC, CPVC & ABS), not being sure of the two materials. Followed up by a generous 2nd coat after two days of curing. And finally followed up with several reinforcing wraps of "WrapIt Repair" branded self-fusing silicone tape. Great stuff that, get some and see. :smile: 

On the other heater and and UV, I did not grind the joint, but just reinforced the seal. That was with a generous bead of "Goop" branded plumbing sealant around the seam, and again wrapped with the silicone tape.

So with all that done, you would assume I could just wedge the units back in the stand, screw together the unions, turn a few ball valves and I'd be good to go. Right? Not so! The Pentair website makes this this statement on their website - "_Compression coupling allows easy installation and removal of heater. Accepts 1" or 3/4" diameter aquarium heater._"

My a**.

They do NOT accommodate "_easy_" installation of heaters. So that very little compression would be required, I bought heaters that are exactly 1" in diameter. But I spent hours. Yes HOURS, trying to get the heaters back in without leaks. By building up the diameter of the heaters with more of that silicone tape (great stuff!), I was eventually able to get it leak free. But it was a massive PITA. And wet.

As for the electrical system, a few weeks ago the tank's GFI circuit started tripping. Not all the time though. It was odd. Through the process of elimination I finally determined that it was being caused by the Aquamedic dual electronic ballast that powers my two MH pendants. It was toast. Fortunately I still had the magnetic ballasts that came with the pendants. I had originally purchased that electronic ballast because I did not want to hear the buzzing sound of the magnetics. But I don't hear it now - except when they first start up. So I don't know if when I got the electronics I had not given the electronics a chance to warm up. Or maybe you don't hear it over the noise of the reef tank in the same room. Either way I don't hear the buzzing any more.

However, there is no room for them in the stand. The single electronic ballast that they replaced was much, much smaller, and mounted on a side wall the stand. They can't go there. And the floor of the stand is FULL. So they'll just have to reside on the floor beside the tank. I hate it, but have no choice - short of buying a replacement electronic ballast.

And if that were not enough, I had not one - but two - failures on one of my Ocean Clear filters when I was replacing filters. IMO they are responsible for the failures of my Pentairs. You might ask "_What does Pentairs leaking have to do with Ocean Clear filters?_"

Answer? Shock and vibration.

To replace the filters you have to unscrew the ring that holds down the lid. And that requires a mallet. That's right folks, a hammer is required to open and close Ocean Clear filters. I know it seems unbelieveable. But years ago when I called Ocean Clear to see what I was doing wrong... why I could not get the lid to seal without leaking, I was told in no uncertain terms that a hammer was required to get a good seal. And sure enough, no amount to lid re-alignment, rescrewing, or tighening was suffecient to stop the lid from leaking until I took a rubber mallet to it.

And in the process of tightening the lid until it no longer leaked - after replacing the filter last week - the pressure gauge fell apart. I guess there's only so much wacking with a mallet that a filter can take. So that had to be replaced. But it gets better...

On the Ocean Clear filter lid is a small plastic plug that is used to vent air out of the filter. As the filter is filled with water you unscrew it a bit to bleed air out until the filter is nearly full of water, then you close it by tightening the plug. In principle. In actual fact, the plug does not plug very well. And I personally cannot hand tighen it enough to get a good seal. Every time it requires pliers. Not wanting to break it - it's only plastic - I've always given it a tiny turn with the pliers, see if it is still leaking, and if so, repeat the process until the leaking stops. Well, last time, the last tiny turn both stopped the leaking and cracked the plug. Amazing. So that too, required replacement. And when the replacement was required turning way too hard with the pliers too, I concluded the problem may not be the plug.

Indeed, with close inspection with a magnifying glass, it was clear that a manufacturing defect in the lid itself was the problem. There was excess plastic in the area where the seal is made that should have been removed somewhere in the finishing process of the product, but was not. Two minutes with a little careful trimming with an exacto knife, and it seals easily now. No pliers required.

So everything is fixed now. Humpty Dumpty is back together. I've got heaters that heat, filters that filter, and lights that light. And the water is all staying in the tank where it belongs. :wink:

Sorry for the rant. I guess now I can turn my attention - at long last - back to the reason why all this silly equipment exists: the aquascape. :smile:


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## Mxx

Crikey! Despite being impressed by the technical expertise you'd displayed in creating this system as well as your reeftank, I think I'll try and go the opposite direction to a fair degree, and simplify everything to at least some degree! That doesn't sound like a great deal of fun you're having there in dealing with leaks and all!

I'm thinking a narrow rear tank compartment might be the way to go for me, to house all the equipment and keep it out of sight while remaining relatively leakproof and not having to use extra electricity to lift water. 

In terms of creating a planted rear wall, this 1600 by Barr was what I had in mind to try and replicate myself









I was thinking of building a series of 'gutters' along the rear wall faced with a bit of Manzanita wood, which I could fill with capped soil and plants to create a solid back wall of plants once it filed in. Such a frame wouldn't necessarily require a tear-down, and could be built and then dropped in. I was just wary of what the challenge of cleaning the inside rear pane might be like in a tank such as yours otherwise, so was trying to design around that instead. I'm trying something similar in my new trial reef tank actually, but just used dry rock rubble siliconed to the back wall there as corals don't exactly have roots which need to be fed in quite the same manner. http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=310061

However, I should know better than to encourage or provoke a perfectionist, (knowing how it is myself). 

Not sure what a Congo biotope would have looked like in terms of plants in any case, but sticking with your general Amazonian theme will remain impressive I'm sure. Other fish than tetras? I keep wondering myself what else I'd go with if I wasn't happy with discus in such a tank, although there isn't a great deal of other options that are quite as breathtaking in the same way... 

And good to hear the aquascaping underneath your moss still has legs in it, and retains some of it's previous impressive character, which I was quite inspired by!


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## scolley

Mxx said:


> Crikey! Despite being impressed by the technical expertise you'd displayed in creating this system as well as your reeftank, I think I'll try and go the opposite direction to a fair degree, and simplify everything to at least some degree!


Fair comment, but let's break it down. I had several problems:


An electronic ballast that died.
No room in the stand for replacement ballasts.
A leaking Pentair heater module.
Broken Pentair heater modules (broken internal pipe).
Uncontrolled water outflow upon disconnecting the Pentair modules.
A broken internal shielding in a Pentair UV module.
A broken Ocean Clear canister filter pressure gauge.
A broken Ocean Clear canister filter air bleed screw.

I think that's it. So...

An electronic ballast that died. All planted tanks need lights. Most require ballasts. All ballasts die with time. That's not a function of complexity. 

No room in the stand for replacement ballasts. That appears to be a function of complexity - not enough room in my stand. However, the real problem is my unwillingness to buy a new replacement ballast right now. If I bought a proper replacement, there would be not problem at all.

A leaking Pentair heater module. That IS a a function of complexity. I have those module because I'm not willing to put heaters in the tank. And because I wanted to automate daily water changes for the discus. So yes, this is a complexity issue. But if I had it all to do over again, I'd STILL put some form of massive in-line filtering in the stand to help eliminate that COUNTLESS hours I saved not having to do manual water changes.

Broken Pentair heater modules (broken internal pipe). That's just a function of equipment that's not very sturdy. Should have chosen a different method of in-line heating. The fact that I had it is a complexity function, but I covered that in the previous point.

Uncontrolled water outflow upon disconnecting the Pentair modules. Definitely a function of complexity. Though - as before - if I had it all to do over, I'd happily trade this momentary problem with the countless hours I saved not doing water changes for the discus.

A broken internal shielding in a Pentair UV module. Same issue as the broken Pentair heater modules.

A broken Ocean Clear canister filter pressure gauge. Has nothing to do with complexity. It's just bad product design of a large canister filter. Any 180 is going to need a lot of filtration. I just picked the wrong product.

A broken Ocean Clear canister filter air bleed screw. Same issue as the broken pressure gauge - product quality at fault, not complexity.

So, were my problems created by complexity? Except for the decision to have Pentair modules at all, I'm inclined to say "no". But then there's 5 years of no water changes I got for that decision. A pretty good choice IMO.

Also, please keep in mind... other than an annual filter change, and the rare cleaning of algae off the acrylic, I've barely touched this tank in 5 years. The one exception is when two of my Pentair heaters sprung a leak a couple of years ago. All told, I'll wager I've got thirty to forty hours of maintenance on this tank in 5 years. How many other people can say that about a planted 180? Especially one with discus?



Mxx said:


> In terms of creating a planted rear wall, this 1600 by Barr was what I had in mind to try and replicate myself


Well, my hat's off to Tom on that setup! That is a spectacular biotope! roud:


----------



## scolley

Just an update...

I said I thought this reset of the existing aquascape would take a couple of weeks. It's taking a lot longer. There is a TON of mulm under that moss. And there's a lot of moss. So I'm siphoning off about a 6" square section - or so - and waiting a few days before doing it again. There's just too much muck to do much more than that without turning the tank into brown soup, and possibly stirring up too much anaerobic bacteria. Not to mention removing a source of nitrifying bacteria. So I'm taking it slow, by doing a small section every few days.

Should be through before too many weeks go by.


----------



## Mxx

Sounds like you need one of these! http://www.amazon.com/Automatic-Gravel-Cleaner-Sludge-Extractor/dp/B003C5U2SU

I want one too...


----------



## scolley

Mxx said:


> Sounds like you need one of these! http://www.amazon.com/Automatic-Gravel-Cleaner-Sludge-Extractor/dp/B003C5U2SU
> 
> I want one too...


Naaa... Thanks for the suggestion, but the gravel filter that comes on Python's work just fine. Thanks though.


----------



## scolley

*Brief Update*

In the process of fixing up the aquascape, which as I indicated is mostly just the process of removing the jungle. It's the whole "less is more" concept all over again I suppose. There's more 'scape tweaking to do. But this is a start.

Front









I'm not real happy about the dark right side. It is farthest from the viewer as the tank is in a corner. But that side was never really set up right in the first place - too much wood under-structure. And that wood now supports some massive root for the big anubias, so I'm not sure what I'll do. But it will need work.

Left side (side you approach from)









View toward center from the right (the corner where people don't go)









Right side









It's a work in progress. Figured I'd share. I'm just glad the underlying 'scape can be worked with, and that I don't have to start all over! :smile:

Oh... sorry about the reflections. LOL the little dots of light on the right in some shots are the DIY LEDs over my little reef. :wink:


----------



## Digsy

Nice looking start to the scape! How many rummies ended up making it, it looks like a nice school?


----------



## scolley

Digsy said:


> Nice looking start to the scape! How many rummies ended up making it, it looks like a nice school?


Thanks Digsy. 

I'm not sure how many rummies are left. Far fewer than I bought - that's for certain! I'll have to take a pic as I feed them to know for sure, but I'm estimating 40. 50 tops.

I don't ever see dead ones, but I do see the occasional straggler - one that does not stick with the shoal. And when they aren't partaking in the pack feeding frenzy (like mini-phiranas), you know they are not long for this world. What I don't know is if this is finally a stable number, or if it is slowly continuing to diminish.

I feed twice a day - all the Cyclopeze that they can eat in 2 minutes. And they attack that with gusto. Until last week I could not get them to take anything else. But now some of them are also taking New Life Spectrum Small Fish Forumula. And yesterday I gave frozen blood worms another try, and this time many of them attached it.

Bottom line - they are beginning to eat a broader range of food. So maybe they are stabilizing at last.

It's worth noting, when I got the first batch and one of the two bags of fish had fish that were lethargic, I saw something I'd never seen - Amano shrimp picking off swimming fish! The lethargic ones would swim near the bottom. And if one got close enough to an Amano, the shrimp would grab them and start eating them. I saw several that started to swim away as the Amano lunged, and the Amano was only able to grab their tail. But sometimes that was enough. I'm afraid it was a bad day for a lot of Tetras, and a feast for my shrimp.


----------



## 150EH

They like frozen brine shrimp but I'm not sure how nutritious they are, I had a large(ish) school of Rummy's at 43 strong but it turns out they are a good indicator fish for high CO2 and are the first to go if you step over the line, I did it a month ago and I'm so mad at myself I have yet to turn the CO2 back on. I fed mine everything, Ken's earthworm and color flake, NLS Thera plus A, and various other sinking pellets and the like, but it seem a good variety can really get their color to come out and I love how tight they keep the school, your tank looks good and I'm glad to see it's still running well, good luck.

BTW we have a club member that states she was bitten by her Amano and it hurt enough to make her jump, the do get to be a good size.


----------



## scolley

150EH said:


> BTW we have a club member that states she was bitten by her Amano and it hurt enough to make her jump, the do get to be a good size.


Yeah... I guess if they get old enough, they get BIG. I've got zebra loaches in my tank (all adults) and some of my biggest amanos are about the size of my smaller loaches. Hard to believe I know, but true.

As for the Rummynoses, their diet of primarily Cyclopeze seems to be working - though it will put me in the poor-house. Their noses are as red as I have ever seen. Bright cherry red. They look spectacular. And now they've taken to eating the bloodworms that I feed my bottom dwellers; loaches and corys. So I have to feed the tetras first, just so that the bloodworms will have a chance to get that far down.

And just got a few pair of apistograma; two Triple red cacatuoides pair and a fire red agassizi pair. And have a pair of double red agassizi ordered. The tank's looking up. :smile:


----------



## scolley

The tank's coming along nicely IMO. The aquascape is much improved. I've still got the dark right side problem, but it's at least a little improved.

The Rummy's are big now. Too much good eating I guess. :wink: Fortunately I've weaned them off Cyclopeze and onto pellet and flake. They were going to eat me out of house and home.

I loved the way the tank looked with all the smaller fish. But to my surprise, no one else (but one of my sons) liked the look. They were disappointed at the lack of "big fish". I spent a lot of time mulling that over, and gave my decision to stop stocking discus a good review. And I thought about all the things in being a discus keeper that I did not like:


Them picking on each other all the time - sometime leading to the death of smaller fish.
Their general lack of vigor.
The tendency of discus keepers to ceaselessly evaluate the conformation (shape, coloration, size) of every discus they see. A nice discus is never enough - there's always a nicer one in someone else's tank.

If I were to get more discus, the picking problem is easily solved - get a bunch of fish the same size/age/growth potential. But the vigor and discus keeper pickiness had me stumped, until I had a Blinding Flash of the Obvious - WILDS!

I love wild discus, but have never had them. They fix the vigor problem. If you get healthy ones (after many rounds of meds) they are much more robust than domestic discus - none of the problems from too much inbreeding.

And the the discus keeper pickiness goes away because that's what nature produced. Sure, there's always a bigger, more colorful wild animal somewhere. And you can pay big bucks to get them. But generally speaking a set of wilds is a set of wilds - this is what mother nature produced. 

That revelation was about 6 weeks ago. But I had to wait for discus season on the Amazon to get into full swing, as it is now. And I've got a QT with 8 medium sized Tefe Green wild discus in my QT now! :bounce: They should be ready for the main tank right about Christmas. roud:

Oh yeah... one more thing. Has anyone seen this discus tank by Jeff Senske? I just saw this last week and almost had a duck. Those look to be Tefe Greens too! I know imitation is the greatest form of compliment. And I'm unabashed in saying the Jeff deserves compliments on his tank - he is an aquascaping Master! But I decided on Tefe Greens and put a downpayment on my soon-to-arrive fish weeks before I ever saw that. Now I'll be stuck with everyone thinking I'm intimating Jeff. Bummer. Unless - maybe - that pic on their website went up VERY recently.

So either I independently came to the same conclusion of one of the very best in the industry. Or I at least have the good sense to know who to copy. I guess I'll be the only one that ever knows for sure. :wink:


----------



## 2wheelsx2

scolley said:


> If I were to get more discus, the picking problem is easily solved - get a bunch of fish the same size/age/growth potential. But the vigor and discus keeper pickiness had me stumped, until I had a Blinding Flash of the Obvious - WILDS!
> 
> Oh yeah... one more thing. Has anyone seen this discus tank by Jeff Senske? I just saw this last week and almost had a duck. Those look to be Tefe Greens too! I know imitation is the greatest form of compliment. And I'm unabashed in saying the Jeff deserves compliments on his tank - he is an aquascaping Master! But I decided on Tefe Greens and put a downpayment on my soon-to-arrive fish weeks before I ever saw that. Now I'll be stuck with everyone thinking I'm intimating Jeff. Bummer. Unless - maybe - that pic on their website went up VERY recently.
> 
> So either I independently came to the same conclusion of one of the very best in the industry. Or I at least have the good sense to know who to copy. I guess I'll be the only one that ever knows for sure. :wink:


Good choice on going wilds. That's why mine is all wilds too. No more comments of shape and size and this and that. I also went all Tefe like you in the beginning, but unfortunately, I started with wilds and ran into that problem you talk about, which is most of mine didn't make it through the rounds of meds. I now have 2 large Heckels, one Maracana, 1 small Tefe (left from an earlier batch) and 2 Cuipera cross from Forrest/Kenny. The 2 Cuipera Crosses have paired up with a Heckel each (both Heckels are males) and have been spawning non-stop, so there is still fighting in the tank, so I wouldn't rule that out.

As for that Tefe tank, Jeff's had a video on Youtube for at least 3 months that I know of, showing the layout and how it was put together. But those are average Tefe. Those are fully spotted and semi-Royal adults so I suspect that Jeff shelled out at least $250 a fish for those. And they are huge too.

I'm sure you'll be happy with the Tefe and I'm glad you didn't give up on discus with such an awesome setup for them.


----------



## scolley

2wheelsx2 said:


> Good choice on going wilds. That's why mine is all wilds too.


Thanks! I've actually always liked the wilds. But they just are not as visually striking as many domestics. When I was re-evaluating the discus question, I realized that choosing wilds meant - almost by definition - that I was not ever going to get the "Wow!" reaction from people, because the color is just not there. But you know what? I really don't care anymore.

I've had a good run of people going ooh'ing and ahhh'ing over the tank. At this point this tank is for ME. And I happen to like wilds. There's a kind of beauty to their being nature's product - rather than the product of many generations of human intervention. IMO it's kind of like buying a dingo. Not the best looking dog. But what you have is pure, unadulterated, natural dog.

Sorry to hear about your trouble with meds. Any idea what went wrong? Most of mine greens are fat, and eating heartily, so I'm hopeful. And since it's still early in the season - if something goes wrong - there should be time to get replacements. It's also why I bought 8. Full grown, 8's about all I want in the tank. But if that number were to drop down to 6, it's not the end of the world. 8's better for reducing aggression though. IMO 8 are more than 2 better than 6, if you know what I mean.

As for breeding aggression, I'm not worried about that. I've had them breed in my 180, and there's plenty of room for everyone to recognize and observe the new territory rules when that happens. It passes soon enough.

Also... I don't know if you are using CO2. But I'm not. So my pH is in the high 6's. I've learned from experience that when I'm injecting CO2 for plant growth, my pH is generally in the low 6's. And that's like flipping the horney switch to the "ON" position for discus. In the absence of that, I'm assuming breeding will be infrequent - if at all.

Oh yeah... it figures Senske's had that tank up for a while. But on the website those are indeed nice fish. Jeff always springs major doh-ray-me for good fish. I've bought plain old Tefe's. Nothing special. But then again, neither is your average dingo. :wink:

Thanks for the feedback!


----------



## Rion

I agree with going to wild discus, I think they have enough color to get some "ooohs" and "aaaaahs" and they are quite striking in my opinion. I wouldn't think you'd be copying Mr. Senske by going with them either, your tank has been running longer than the one he's posted so you have seniority by induction date, if anything he's "future copying" you.

Nice to see the Son of Kahuna is still running well!


----------



## 2wheelsx2

My Tefe's just went off. Cloudy eyes, wouldn't eat and slowly wasted away. I tried Prazipro, Kursuri, etc. to no avail. That seems to be a wild specific problem that they go off their foods.

I designed my 30x30x24" square tank for discus so I never planned on CO2. The plants in there are just for nutrient uptake. I do dose a bit of Metricide. The water in my neck of the woods is very soft so it doesn't take much to get the pH down. I throw a couple of almond leaves in and it's at around 6.5 and that's where I leave it. I do 3 wc of 75% a week though and dose nitrate and phosphate lightly so the tank water is very soft (TDS buffered to about 90 with Equilibrium and Epsom salts).

I dunno, it could be the local water as everything breeds in that tank: Sterbai Cories, L333, L134, BNP's, Discus and various tetras. Everything gets gobbled up since there are so many fish in there.

I think you're going to love having wilds in there. I think wilds are spectacular in their own right. Kinda like a black muscle car vs. a neon orange import sport compact comparison, if you know what I mean. Both draw the eye, but for different reasons.


----------



## marioman72

gorgeous tank! love the giant school of rummys


----------



## hydrophyte

This is wonderful!


----------



## scolley

Rion said:


> ...your tank has been running longer than the one he's posted so you have seniority by induction date...


Yeah, but he had the jump on me with the Green Tefe's. And I'm OK with that, except that it looks like I'm copying something. But that's OK. The original Kahuna was greatly influenced by Jeff. As I recall it was not deliberate at the time, but I've come to the conclusion that my decision to go with blue discus in my original discus tank HAD to be influenced by this tank.



2wheelsx2 said:


> My Tefe's just went off. Cloudy eyes, wouldn't eat and slowly wasted away. I tried Prazipro, Kursuri, etc. to no avail. That seems to be a wild specific problem that they go off their foods.


Bummer. Mine are voracious at the moment. So if I see any change in their appetite, I'll hopefully know to back off the meds. Thanks.



2wheelsx2 said:


> I think wilds are spectacular in their own right. Kinda like a black muscle car vs. a neon orange import sport compact comparison, if you know what I mean. Both draw the eye, but for different reasons.


Indeed I do. 




marioman72 said:


> gorgeous tank! love the giant school of rummys


Thank you. 



hydrophyte said:


> This is wonderful!


Thanks strange! Long time no hear. Hope all is well. And hopefully this thread will yield some amusement value for you. Thanks for saying "Hi"!


----------



## Amandas tank

Wow! :icon_eek: I must admit I haven't finished reading through your thread, but am blown away but what I've seen and read so far.

My eyes would go crossed if I tried to set something up like you did in 2007! All those wires, plugs, pipes oh my! My favorite part is that you can control everything from your pc when traveling! That's cool! Not to mention the botton for feeding. 

Your tank looks beautiful! And those Discus are certainly nice back in '07. I will have to finish this thread so I will be brought up to speed as to where you are at with this tank today! Heck, you may even have a different tank being that it's almost '13.


----------



## Amandas tank

Okay...I made it through A Tale of Three Algaes and on into the next phase...Discus boring and reef challenge. This is an amazing thread!

*edit: just finsihed reading the rest. Now I am up to speed *

Wow what a thread! I like the latest scape after your trim and mulm battle. Looks so good! And the rummies are definetely perfect for that scape! Sorry about your past Discus...8 years I would have been a mess as they were dying off. Can't wait to see your wild Discus. Do you have pics of them up already in a different thread? Going to read your re-introduction now.


----------



## halffrozen

This is... idk how to say it better, then amazing... I guess amazing will have to do.

Amazing.


----------



## ikuzo

great rummies
i'm also a fan of the anubias placement too
after a while their hanging roots looks really great


----------



## scolley

Amandas tank said:


> Wow! :icon_eek: I must admit I haven't finished reading through your thread, but am blown away but what I've seen and read so far.
> 
> My eyes would go crossed if I tried to set something up like you did in 2007!


Really? Well my own eyes would have crossed if I tried to read this entire thread! LOL Thanks.



Amandas tank said:


> Can't wait to see your wild Discus. Do you have pics of them up already in a different thread? Going to read your re-introduction now.


I'm afraid not. Won't have any until they go into the tank, 'cus they're in a real big Rubbermaid trash can. So I can't really even see them except top down. And with maybe one exception, they are all well filled out, a few even chubby. But I can't say much about how they look except that they're all primarily yellow brown, prominent stress bars, and many having blue marking staring to show, and it looks like a few may have some red trim showing on the blue. Hard to say though.



halffrozen said:


> Amazing.


Thanks. I wish it were better. I need to get new pics up, and some discus in there. 



ikuzo said:


> i'm also a fan of the anubias placement too
> after a while their hanging roots looks really great


Really? I work to hide those roots - not liking that look permanently.

A lot of the Tiawan moss in the tank is located precisely to hide roots. The two stands of large anubias growing out of the top have MASSIVE roots. They grow parallel, straight down. Looks like green jail bars, except closer together. But they are hidden. Sorry. Will ponder the possibility of letting them show though. Thanks for the idea!


----------



## MikeS

OMG - awesome tank!!! I still do not even understand all your high tech, just amazed at what can be done, and what you have done. The tank looked great with discus, but I think the rummy nose take the cake!!! Definitely will have to reread many times, hopefully understanding it more. Again, beautiful tank!!!


----------



## scolley

*A belated reply to Tom Barr*



plantbrain said:


> That's a lot of equipment under the tank.
> 
> Makes some reef folks look simple.
> 
> I like equipment reduced and simple.
> However, you have a different goal there.
> 
> With more stuff, comes more stuff to go wrong and more dependecy, and failure since you are not doing as much work and relying of the equipment.
> 
> However, we often fed our fish daily......or severla time, this can be automated but many of us like that part and do not like to automate it it too much, bad for live foods as well.
> 
> So I can dose/etc easy enough.
> I think you might find the in line use of a needle wheel CO2 of interest.
> 
> I have a 180 gal tank that is about to be set up here soon, within about 3 weeks or so.
> 
> So I'll take a pic of the equipment, but it's rather Spartan.
> Still, nothing on the sides or in the tank as far as equipment which is always a nice goal.
> 
> Yes, the OC filters are really good at clearing up the tanks.
> I'm using a bag sock filter instead of the OC, even though I bought one with an 18W UV and the biocore+ 25sqft pleated filter.
> 
> The sock is nice because they are easier to remove and clean and I have lots of them for peanuts, the flow rates are always the same as with sumps, and I can layer the socks inside the other, going from 100 micron to 50, to 10 to 5.
> 
> 5 will remove any GW.
> 
> Bleach them to clean good and rinse.
> Same with the pleated OC 25 or 40 sqft cartiages.
> 
> The needle wheel method loose less flow and requires no added pressure, so it works well for any size system. Really atomizes the CO2 like venturis. they can be done for in line or sump applications or in tank set ups too.
> 
> Cheap too.
> 
> One thing about mechanical: make it easy to clean them often.
> You cannot avoid that mainteance.
> You can avoid flow losses, more labor etc.
> Bag filters are nice because they fill up as they clog and over flow into a sump. They are also cheap.
> 
> UV's, etc, well, I really do not need those except on rare occasions and then only for a few days tops, so a hang on I use for such issues.
> Dosing pumps, well, never been fond of them, have added them, have had clients mess with them, but they have some issue at some point.
> Same deal with pH controllers and what not.
> 
> Automation has it's prices.
> 
> I think going the semi automated route allows us to monitor things really well, but reduces labor by a huge factor.
> 
> Turn a valve, drain the tank, turn another, fill the tank.
> Swap a bag filter out, add a new in.
> I like to work on the tank and prune and garden when the tank is 1/2 full.
> 
> Nice job on getting all that stuff underneath the tank, I just worry that over teching things is a bit Faustian.........you build your own tomb of undoing.
> 
> I try to not go down that path
> But you have to learn it on your own:thumbsup:
> And I have
> 
> Hope it goes well Scolley.
> 
> Tom Barr


Tom - I happen to be flipping through old pages of this thread last nite - because I was in shock that member Amandas_Tank would actually read it all - and I saw this post, and was shocked that I had not replied. Please accept my years tardy apology!

There is much to be learned from your post, that the wisdom from running this complicated setup for a number of years has shown. As follows:


I should have set up my Ocean Clear's in series, as you indicated.
You've got injection on both loops. IMO that's a good idea, but you need filtration and heat on both loops too. But that's too much gear. I'm sorry that I did not set this up as parallel to the pumps, then collapse down to a single loop where each piece of equipment can be bypassed, then manifold back out for multiple returns.
I have indeed kept an extra set of media cartridges around as you suggest. It's been essential. You change these so infrequently, that I've found a tendency to forget about it until one day I wake up and realize I've got seriously diminished flow and need a media change ASAP.

However here's another post Tom - that I need to reply to - and your comments get me thinking a whole new direction...


plantbrain said:


> That's a lot of equipment under the tank.
> 
> Makes some reef folks look simple.
> 
> I like equipment reduced and simple.
> However, you have a different goal there.
> 
> With more stuff, comes more stuff to go wrong and more dependecy, and failure since you are not doing as much work and relying of the equipment.
> 
> However, we often fed our fish daily......or severla time, this can be automated but many of us like that part and do not like to automate it it too much, bad for live foods as well.
> 
> So I can dose/etc easy enough.
> I think you might find the in line use of a needle wheel CO2 of interest.
> 
> I have a 180 gal tank that is about to be set up here soon, within about 3 weeks or so.
> 
> So I'll take a pic of the equipment, but it's rather Spartan.
> Still, nothing on the sides or in the tank as far as equipment which is always a nice goal.
> 
> Yes, the OC filters are really good at clearing up the tanks.
> I'm using a bag sock filter instead of the OC, even though I bought one with an 18W UV and the biocore+ 25sqft pleated filter.
> 
> The sock is nice because they are easier to remove and clean and I have lots of them for peanuts, the flow rates are always the same as with sumps, and I can layer the socks inside the other, going from 100 micron to 50, to 10 to 5.
> 
> 5 will remove any GW.
> 
> Bleach them to clean good and rinse.
> Same with the pleated OC 25 or 40 sqft cartiages.
> 
> The needle wheel method loose less flow and requires no added pressure, so it works well for any size system. Really atomizes the CO2 like venturis. they can be done for in line or sump applications or in tank set ups too.
> 
> Cheap too.
> 
> One thing about mechanical: make it easy to clean them often.
> You cannot avoid that mainteance.
> You can avoid flow losses, more labor etc.
> Bag filters are nice because they fill up as they clog and over flow into a sump. They are also cheap.
> 
> UV's, etc, well, I really do not need those except on rare occasions and then only for a few days tops, so a hang on I use for such issues.
> Dosing pumps, well, never been fond of them, have added them, have had clients mess with them, but they have some issue at some point.
> Same deal with pH controllers and what not.
> 
> Automation has it's prices.
> 
> I think going the semi automated route allows us to monitor things really well, but reduces labor by a huge factor.
> 
> Turn a valve, drain the tank, turn another, fill the tank.
> Swap a bag filter out, add a new in.
> I like to work on the tank and prune and garden when the tank is 1/2 full.
> 
> Nice job on getting all that stuff underneath the tank, I just worry that over teching things is a bit Faustian.........you build your own tomb of undoing.
> 
> I try to not go down that path
> But you have to learn it on your own:thumbsup:
> And I have
> 
> Hope it goes well Scolley.
> 
> Tom Barr


In belated reply...


Thanks for the needle wheel suggestion. However I cannot imagine improving on your venturi concept that I already have in place. It works flawlessly, without maintenance, and dangerously efficient. If allowed, it'll drop the pH in the 180g like a stone.
So what's with the bag sock filter instead of the OC? I think what you are omitting is that you've tossed out the typical PT closed loop for a sump system.
Your decision to forgo UV, and pull it in as needed as a HOB (or whatever) was a great space saving idea. Wish I had done that.
I LOVE the Foustian insight about over complicating tech.  More on that...
Since I set out to "revitalize" my tank a few months ago, and do the long overdue physical problem, I have been plagued by a massive annoyance. When I was draining one leg of the system to remove/repair the Pentair modules, I wound up turning some ball valves that had not been turned in 4 or 5 years. Many were stuck, and the act of turning them actually turned the threaded close nipples that were threaded into adjacent piping. Plus I did some swapping - moving lines around that also had not been touched in years.

All that created an air gap. Somewhere, but goodness knows were. This is evidenced by a very slow leak, and air in the lines and in the pumps (noisy!). In the following weeks, I have fixed not one - but two - slow leaks. All it required was shutting down the flow of one leg, removing the part, unscrewing all connections, re-taping, screwing back, reconnecting and putting back in service. I guess my point is that this has proven to be a downside to both the complexity of the build, and my decision to use threaded joints. But that's not all...

Even after fixing the leaks air was still finding it's way in. It's not leaking, so that means - most likely - that it's on the intake (vacuum) side of the pumps. But since I have a mainfold combining three tank outflows into two filter legs - and threaded joints on everything - there are thirty eight (yes, 38) junctions on that side of the pumps where air could be coming in. Wow. So I've spent the last couple of months chasing bubbles - turning things off, switching flow, trying to diagnose WHERE the air was getting in. 

And it's multiple spots. One has has been isolated and fixed. And as of yesterday, I appear to have found the last one. It's on a line from one of the three bulkheaded tank outflows connecting to the manifold. I shut down that tank outflow and it's been 24 hours of silence. No bubbles. No gurgles. So if this keeps up another day or so, I know what I've got to fix.

All this is a direct outcome of a complex system. In retrospect IMO on a tank this size, you are doing the right thing with the filter sock - switching to the relatively simplicity of a sump.

Closed loops are fine on smaller tanks. But once you go big, having a robust (redundant) closed loop gets too complicated. Lots of people on PT use sumps successfully, and frankly I think on big tanks, it should be de rigueur.

So... if I had it all to do over again, INDEED I'd be using your filter socks, just as I do on my little reef - in a sump. No more big tank closed loops. Thanks.


----------



## Amandas tank

scolley said:


> Really? Well my own eyes would have crossed if I tried to read this entire thread! LOL Thanks.
> 
> I'm afraid not. Won't have any until they go into the tank, 'cus they're in a real big Rubbermaid trash can. So I can't really even see them except top down. And with maybe one exception, they are all well filled out, a few even chubby. But I can't say much about how they look except that they're all primarily yellow brown, prominent stress bars, and many having blue marking staring to show, and it looks like a few may have some red trim showing on the blue. Hard to say though.


Actually it was amazing to me that this thread is only 30-some pages concidering all the information, great pictures, a ton of changes and the fact it was started in 2007! It was a good read. 
I read they were in a trash can but for some reason thought someone said they were out. Hmmm...I am sorry for your delay. Sounds like a bit of trouble with the equipment side of things. That is really too bad! I certainly hope you can get everything in order again soon so you can sit back and enjoy your fish from the side  They sound fantastic!


----------



## scolley

Well there's a bit of a trash can legacy with this tank. It was preceded by a tank that I build myself, which sprung a leak. In an act of fish-life-saving despiration I put the 6 discus I had at the time in a big Rubbermaid trash can. And not only did they like it, they actually spawned in it. So I'm guessing they were pretty happy with it. So I left them there for many months while I had my 180g built, shipped, and then everything assembled as you see in the beginning of this thread. It was THEN, after many months, my discus came out of the trashcan, and into the tank.

Well that experience taught me that discus are comfortable in the trash can. So I figured why not use it for my quarantine tank? It's only a a month or so. And they like it. 

And there is nothing on the 180 that's holding me up. It's 100% operational, even though I've got one outflow temporarily shut down. I moan about complexity. But all that complexity is worthless without some value in return. And in this case I have reduncence. I only need 2 outflow lines, but I have 3, so I can shut one down - if ever needed like now - for maintenance. And the other benefit is easy interchangeability. The line that I have to replace is not hard plumbed - it's got unions on both ends. So all I have to do is unscrew both ends, fashion a replacement part, and screw them in place.


----------



## Amandas tank

That's great! "Trash can legacy" :hihi: Who woulda thought Discus would dig a trash can enough to spawn! Incredible...you wouldn't happen to have a pic of your rubbermaid QT would you? I'd love to see!. 

Easy sounds good. I have never like things to be a PITA. When I need to do something I want to be able to do it quickly and without a hitch. You should see me when it takes longer than 2 minutes to catch a fish LOL! I have patience _except_ when I'm doing something  I just wanna get er done!


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## scolley

*Pics (before the wilds get in... )*

I HATE taking tank pics. They never come out right for me. They are blurry, or have the wrong exposure, or funky colors. So here's some more of the same.

I took some shots in the daytime, so there are all kind of funky reflections. And then I took some at night (no flash) so they are exposed poorly or blurry. Can't win for losing...

Anyway, in no particular order, here's the tank as it looks now, starring some if it's new inhabitants. 



























































































In kinda made sense to get these before the discus go in in a few weeks. Things are bound to change then! I hope you enjoy the (somewhat lame) pics.


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## discusplantedtanklover

Hey, I love your discus tank set up. It is not there anymore, but you show me all your heart for discus. Hat off for all your works.


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## ikuzo

scolley said:


> Really? I work to hide those roots - not liking that look permanently.
> 
> A lot of the Tiawan moss in the tank is located precisely to hide roots. The two stands of large anubias growing out of the top have MASSIVE roots. They grow parallel, straight down. Looks like green jail bars, except closer together. But they are hidden. Sorry. Will ponder the possibility of letting them show though. Thanks for the idea!


i have some large anubias too with massive branching roots, so i know what you mean. i kinda like the ancient look they give.


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## Mxx

Hey Monkeyman, you really think wilds will have greater vitality? 

That's been a serious debate in my own mind, whether the (inbred) domestics have through natural selection become more suited to the specific risk of tank life than wilds might happen to be. (Not that life in a commercial hatchery is quite the same as in hobbyist tanks either however). 

I really like some of the wild strains, which have an elegance and subtlety lost in almost all the domestics I have to say... 

In any case, I noticed there is one discus breeder here in the UK who is however now rearing F1 wild strains, as well as wild strains crossed with domestic strains. And I thought either might therefore be the best of both worlds, of the selectively bred strong colour as well as the patterning and vitality of the wilds? (I haven't seen many pictures of their stock yet apart from the one photo below which I'm guessing is not the best example). Some of their strains in any case are as follows;
JAPURA GREEN X BLUE TIGER
ROYAL GREEN X GIANT FLORA
HECKLE X ROYAL BLUE
I think I'd personally go for the Green/Floras if I have the chance to, subject to seeing them rather than based upon my imagination of course...


----------



## scolley

Mxx said:


> Hey Monkeyman, you really think wilds will have greater vitality?


Monkeyman? Maybe Apeman... :wink:

I don't KNOW that they have greater vitality. But they are reputed to IF they live through the import/quarantine process.

But I DO know that inbreeding of dogs causes a lack of vitality. So not sure why it would be any different in fish. And in my limited domestic discus experience, I've found domestics to be anywhere from robust to downright sickly - depending on the strain. More often the latter. ALL of my discus came from stellar sources. But some strains were just more robust than others. Any kind of fish that has to be overfed, then have all excrement removed from the tank, tank walls and filters cleaned, and water massively changed one to multiple times a day JUST TO REMAIN HEALTHY, is not a very robust fish in my opinion. But in the discus community, that's standard operating procedure.

Not for me. I don't like that game.

And so far, these wilds are amazingly robust. They are beginning their third and final round of prophylactic meds tonight. Yet they have remained ravenous almost the entire time. I've never had discus that ate so much.

There was a few days toward the end of one treatment when their eating flagged a bit. But they also became skittish. And the ammonia level was creeping up in their water - the med was not supposed to impact the bio-filter, but I've got no other explanation for the climbing ammonia. And after a couple of 50% water changes they were back to being ravenous. So I think that temporary problem was the ammonia, not the fish's vigor.

So far, these appear to be pretty robust. But time will tell.


----------



## Mxx

Yet somehow it felt that "Monkeyman" had a better ring to it, or perhaps it's some archane cinematic literary reference which had it resonating with me... 

No doubt that your imports would be hungry, after having been on the go for weeks or months since they left their native waters!

And I for one potentially wouldn't take the scripture of the discus community as gospel either, in regards to what is the most reasonable approach to these matters.

Can I inquire as to your choice of medications by the way, seeing as you look at these things in thoughtful detail I might want to implement that routine myself in the future. Would you implement any similar regimen with hatchery raised F1 fish by the way?

Would you venture any guess as to the robustness of a wild/domestic hybrid, as I'd mentioned? I'd have thought that might stand a decent chance of weeding out a number of the inevitable inbreeding mutations with domestic strains, with that fresh infusion of wild genes, though I suppose a fair number of them might carry over still...


----------



## scolley

Mxx said:


> or perhaps it's some archane cinematic literary reference which had it resonating with me...


LOL! That's very funny Buckaroo! 



Mxx said:


> Would you venture any guess as to the robustness of a wild/domestic hybrid, as I'd mentioned? I'd have thought that might stand a decent chance of weeding out a number of the inevitable inbreeding mutations with domestic strains, with that fresh infusion of wild genes, though I suppose a fair number of them might carry over still...


I'm afraid that I've got no discus specific knowledge that can help you there. Other than that crossing a pure breed dog with a mutt produces what's referred to as "hybrid vigor" - a generally much more healthy dog than either parent. I assume - but do not know - that the pure breed dog is the result of culling, and that boosts some aspects of health. While the inbreeding it's been subject too also introduce genetic problems that only inbreeding brings. Then crossing out with a mutt suppresses those inbreed problems but retains the health benefits of one parent having come from a long line of culling. Sounds like you are doing something similar and would assume (!) that the same benefits would apply.



Mxx said:


> Can I inquire as to your choice of medications by the way, seeing as you look at these things in thoughtful detail I might want to implement that routine myself in the future. Would you implement any similar regimen with hatchery raised F1 fish by the way?


Right off the bat I would say that any commercially raised fish - fish exposed to other domestic varieties - is much more likely to have one of the nasty strains of hexamita (hex) that's going around. And by definition that means seriously incorporating Metronidazole treatment into your prophylactic routine.

For myself, I believe that is an entirely domestic problem. So I'm less reliant on that in my procedure. I'm happy to share my procedure, but I would not recommend it. Mine is too short, not enough rounds of some meds, and does not provide adequate time between medications. I've compressed my schedule because I had no control over when the fish would be available (not soon enough) and having to get the quarantine stuff out of the family room before Christmas. A compromise I was willing to make. So, here's my prosess for the wilds, adapted from a process described by Al Sabetta from Simply Discus.

All of this assumes:

Each day the quarantine tank has the following: poop siphoned out, filters cleaned, then a 50% water change.
No more food is fed than will be consumed in 10 minutes.
Small feedings occur many times a day.
After a med treatment is completed, a 95% water change is performed to get the med OUT.
3-5 days between rounds of medications, depending on behavior. But up to two weeks is often recommended.
If fish eating habits diminish, or if they become skittish, or if they darken, if they hide or stay close to filters, heaters, etc, then the current medication round STOPS and a 95% water change performed. Meds to not resume until well after fish are clearly healthy again.

First - a Methylene Blue dip

5 teaspoons of Methylene Blue for each 3 gallons water.
Dip for less than 10 seconds.
Be CAREFUL of stains!

Second - put fish in quarantine tank with salt in the water. Use 1.5 tablespoons of commercial aquarium salt (not saltwater tank salt, not reef tank salt) in for each 10 gallons of water. Make sure at least three 50% water changes have been performed before beginning any medications.

Third - get the fish eating, and eating well. Nothing begins until that happens. After that I've ordered the meds in order of what I hoped would be the least stressful, finishing up with the most stressful.

Fourth - Begin PraziPro treatment - lasts 7 days

Shake the bottle.
Add 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons water.
Dose daily with enough to replace meds lost from water changes

Fifth - Begin Rid-Ich+ - lasts 3-5 days

Add 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons water.
Repeat daily.

Sixth - Begin Tetra Parasite Guard - 4-6 days(?)

Add 1 tablet per 10 gallons water.
Repeat dose on alternating days.

Seventh - Should be unnecessary, but ensure they are eating well BEFORE going into the DT​
There are a few things worth noting:

PraziPro and Parasite Guard both have Paziquantel in them, by doing one, and then the other you initially get fluke and tapeworms out of the way. But then the Parasite Guard gives you that essential 2nd round of Prazi. Frankly a third round of PraziPro - a week or two after the Parasite Guard - would be better to help be assured you've covered the full fluke life cycle. I just don't have the time.
Parasite Guard is a combo med (Praziquantel, Metronidazole, Diflubenzuron, and Acriflavine) that can be tough on fish. While I've used it successfully in the past, my wilds are not reacting well to it now. So I've interrupted the Parasite Guard treatment after only two days. I guess why some discus keepers use this stuff, but some experience ones avoid the combo meds. If the fish fully recover in a few days, I'll hit them with it again for a couple of days.
Rid-Ich+ is really just a formulation of Formaldehyde and Malachite Green (FMG).

Hope that helps!


----------



## Mxx

Thanks for the extensively detailed reply!

The 'hybrid vigour' factor was what I too had had in mind. 

Quite a treatment regimen! What is it that you're treating for by the way, if there is a clear answer for that? Ich, Hexamita, Internal Parasites, Flukes, Worms, and other things as well? 

Is Ich really necessary to treat against, while in quarantine unless you see it?

And do you do that with all fish before they go into your tank, or just the discus?

I need to break my own tank, treat it, and start over as I think I've had something in it but I'm not sure what that might be, so I may follow your routine when I do so...


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## scolley

The various meds in that regimine are - as you indicated - intended for a broad range of problems. Hex - yes. Gill flukes -absolutely. But also tape worms, round worms, fungal infections, protozoans, and pretty much most forms of internal and external parasites.

The Rid-Ich+ is not just for Ich. It just happens to be a combo of Formaldahyde (Formalin) and Malachite Green that works against the vast majority of external nasties. Plus - unlike many other similar meds - it will not tear down your biofilter.

Frankly everything should go through this. And especially wilds. For domestics I think I'd boost the metro portion of the regimen. Unfortunately before I decided to get the wilds, I tossed a bunch of small fish in the tank without this, and goodness knows what nasties lurk - waiting for the discus to arrive.

So I KNOW that I'm not introducing the discus to a perfectly benign environment. But at least I'll know that I've gotten rid of most hitchhikers that came in with them - thing that they are clearly susceptible to.

But please don't take my regimin as gospel. Please wander over to SimplyDisus - the best online discus authority IMO - and see what you find there.


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## Mxx

scolley said:


> The various meds in that regimine are - as you indicated - intended for a broad range of problems. Hex - yes. Gill flukes -absolutely. But also tape worms, round worms, fungal infections, protozoans, and pretty much most forms of internal and external parasites.
> 
> The Rid-Ich+ is not just for Ich. It just happens to be a combo of Formaldahyde (Formalin) and Malachite Green that works against the vast majority of external nasties. Plus - unlike many other similar meds - it will not tear down your biofilter.
> 
> Frankly everything should go through this. And especially wilds. For domestics I think I'd boost the metro portion of the regimen. Unfortunately before I decided to get the wilds, I tossed a bunch of small fish in the tank without this, and goodness knows what nasties lurk - waiting for the discus to arrive.
> 
> So I KNOW that I'm not introducing the discus to a perfectly benign environment. But at least I'll know that I've gotten rid of most hitchhikers that came in with them - thing that they are clearly susceptible to.
> 
> But please don't take my regimin as gospel. Please wander over to SimplyDisus - the best online discus authority IMO - and see what you find there.


Thanks for the help, I do happen to find your advice and practices well considered. 

Maybe over the holidays I'll have the chance to start pulling my plants and driftwood out and medicating them along with my fish. That's contingent upon my 34 gallon reef tank completing cycling which I've had to redo twice due to having to first eradicate Bryopsis though, so that I can move my fish and frags into it to free up my quarantine finally. 

I haven't been able to find any Prazi here, but have some of the others available or on hand. I'll need to study if further, but I'd like to find a way to do less course of meds than that but still be fairly thorough. 

I can appreciate how challenging it is to be 100% sanitary always, with the dither fish already in your tank... I'm finding it's even more tricky with reef tanks, as you can't medicate inverts the same way but still thus risk cross-contamination. Good luck with it though, and look forward to seeing it once it's all together for you.


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## scolley

There's quite a few Brit's on Simply Discus. I'd go ask them where they get Praziquantel, or what they use instead.

I hear you on the reef tank! I shudder to think about fish and meds in a reef tank. IMO you put them in crystal clean, or forget about it. For me, my little reef is only 33g (DT) so I've only got a few fish. It's a small enough population that on the rare occasion that a new fish goes in I don't really have to worry about quarantine because if they take out the whole tank, I've only lost three fish.

Corals on the otherhand - WOW! Virtually everything in my tank got triple dipped before coming in - after the initial live rock set up. After that I pretty much locked the tank down - no more corals. There are SO many nasties that prey on coral - particularly SPS - that IMO people that are constantly putting new corals in are begging for trouble - no matter what precautions they take. The only alternative - that I have any faith in - is like ORA (I assume you've seen them here in the States) - where they quarantine any new coral for almost a year, in its own dedicated quarantine system.

But I digress... we are supposed to be talking about plants, aren't we? LOL :icon_wink


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## Mxx

Umm, it's your thread, you can talk about whatever you want on it! 

The lockdown approach is a good idea. I dip my corals in CoralRx to kill pests, and then Hydrogen Peroxide to kill any invasive algae before putting them into a quarantine tank for a whle. (No they don't like that, and I have killed some before by doing that). I'm trying to keep the likes of Bryopsis and Valonia entirely out of the DT (this time). I'm treating my SW fish in a bucket with Metro before I put them in quarantine. I suppose I should be treating with copper as well perhaps, but I figure I'll only do that if I see Velve or Ich coming up in quarantine. My only fish were bought from other hobbyists who had established tanks with no fish added recently and no signs of disease, which is good I suppose as I can't treat them in quarantine for parasites as they're sharing the quarantine with frags...

I'm just worried about introducing the likes of Velvet, which would not only take out your fish but which you might need to break your entire tank down and throw out your corals to get rid of. Mine is a 34 gallon cube as well, I thought yours was a 60 come to think of it, and you have quite a big skimmer on it then I think, don't you? I stuck with the Tunze 9002 which came with mine.


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## scolley

Mxx said:


> Umm, it's your thread, you can talk about whatever you want on it!
> 
> ---
> 
> I stuck with the Tunze 9002 which came with mine.


Yea, this is pretty far OT, where I would rather not go. The discus were cool only because IMO there needs to be more cross fertilization between the discus and planted communities. But reefs are a whole new ball game.

Replacing my Tunze 9002 was the best thing I ever did for my 33g reef tank. Here's the results of a head-2-head competition with its replacement. So if you wanna chat reef, come on by to RC. I'm there a LOT.


----------



## Mxx

scolley said:


> Yea, this is pretty far OT, where I would rather not go. The discus were cool only because IMO there needs to be more cross fertilization between the discus and planted communities. But reefs are a whole new ball game.
> 
> Replacing my Tunze 9002 was the best thing I ever did for my 33g reef tank. Here's the results of a head-2-head competition with its replacement. So if you wanna chat reef, come on by to RC. I'm there a LOT.


And I think there needs to be more cross-fertilization between the reefing community and the planted tank community. - I'm intending to add live California Blackworms and Malaysian Trumplet Snails to the substrate in my FW planted tank to keep the sand freshened and turned over to avoid stagnation. And I'm also working on doing my reef tank as a planted seagrass tank, and put an inch of enriched mineralized topsoil underneath the sand to try to help achieve that, (much to the horror of some fellow reefers I'm sure). 

By the way, great suggestion in regards to the Prazi. I looked on BIDKA the British Discus forum and found a source of Praze in two minutes... While months back I searched for a UK source of Prazi for the better part of an hour fruitlessly. 

Still not sure how to prophylactically medicate the shrimp and snails going into my planted FW tank, if I'm trying to keep it 'clean'. Did you consider running any meds on your display tank? With all that moss I wouldn't have thought it'd have been a problem in terms of causing another cycle to have to occur, would it?


----------



## scolley

IMO - any meds are to be strenuously avoided in a planted tank. The balance/undiluted is just too easy to upset. That said I have used Rid-Ich+ with no issues. Same with Metro. Likewise potassium permanganate. But dosages can be critical, especially with the latter.

Either way it's a practice to avoid.

I've never been aware of a need to treat propholactically treat shrimp. Snails I avoid, and keep fish that kill them.


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## scolley

The Tefe Greens are in the tank at last! And BOY do they look great! roud:

For now they are adjusting to their new home, so pic opportunities will be a bit sporadic. They're doing that "_I'm mostly gonna hide_" thing that new discus do in a heavily planted tank. I didn't see my batch of Turqs for several day when they were new. So I'm pleased to say that these are already out and about - just not when someone approaches the tank.

It'll change over the coming days and weeks, and I'll get pics.


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## thelub

This thread was so good I had to register here just to put in my $0.02. 

This was an epic read and I read pretty much every post. Great job with this setup and I'm impressed with the longevity of this tank and your dedication to the hobby. This build reminded me of a 450g reef build I read on another forum somewhere a couple years ago. I'll be lurking around following other builds of yours.

I gotta say, your most recent fish additions (apistos) before the latest round of discus is almost exactly what I have planned for my 55g. This will be my first planted tank so I'm soaking up any and all info I can about the subject.


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## scolley

thelub said:


> This thread was so good I had to register here just to put in my $0.02.
> 
> This was an epic read and I read pretty much every post. Great job with this setup and I'm impressed with the longevity of this tank and your dedication to the hobby. This build reminded me of a 450g reef build I read on another forum somewhere a couple years ago. I'll be lurking around following other builds of yours.
> 
> I gotta say, your most recent fish additions (apistos) before the latest round of discus is almost exactly what I have planned for my 55g. This will be my first planted tank so I'm soaking up any and all info I can about the subject.


Thank you so much. But it IS a long read, huh? Lot's time going into this long running effort...

Good luck with the Apisogramma. Great fish! I got mine all from ApistoDave on Aquabid. And some of them are REAL nice.

I've got to admit, when I read your first comment, I misunderstood it. I thought you were saying that you are starting your first planted tank - a 55g - and were going to be putting discus in it. WOW. I'm glad to see - on second read - that that does not appear to be the case. Apisto's are a great fish to put in your first planted tank. Just resist putting in too many. Too much food going in the tank turns into too much urea, and that easily leads to too much algae. Just go slow on the fish. And good luck!


----------



## Phil Edwards

Steve, where's your newest tank journal? Inquiring minds want to see. Or is this it?


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## scolley

Hey Phil! I should post an update. Will do this week. But it won't be very exciting...

The tank has filled in, moss growing into huge water light shielding mats. Lilly pad leaves on the surface. It all adds up to a tank that looks dark - not a lot of light in the tank. But the fish like it, and I'm having fun watching them in a more natural environment than our typical open, bright aquarium. So am happy to get some pic. Please just don't expect to see a lot. :wink:


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## scolley

Ohhh... and most of my aquarium time lately has been going into my little reef tank. Trying to finally finish that off. Recently made a new DIY LED fixture for it that's working pretty well. Here's a link for the curious.


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## thelub

Glad to see you are still working on the fresh water still. I was hoping you hadn't completely given it up for the nano reef.


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## ua hua

Wow your reef looks really amazing. I too am interested in seeing some updates on your tank as it has always been a pleasure to see.


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## jasb

just want too double check my self as i am currently designing my new tank. Your in take and out let for your filter are both drilled in to the bottom of the the tank and then plumbed to your canister etc. If that is the case is there any potential problems from that. I have heard people saying that extra head pressure can damage the filter, even know i do not see how there could be more pressure. Actually thought there would be a extremely slight bit less.Cool build and love the tread


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## scolley

jasb said:


> I have heard people saying that extra head pressure can damage the filter, even know i do not see how there could be more pressure.


Well I'm no mechanical engineer, but it's my understanding that there is no additional pressure at all. That is if we are talking about a pump/filter under a tank, getting fed from a hole in the bottom of the tank vs. the same pump/filter being fed from a pipe that goes over the top edge of the tank into the water. I do believe the pressure is EXACTLY the same.

That said, I'd never do a closed loop system of this size ever again. Too hard to deal with when you have problems. Having a system with a sump is SOOO much easier. The problem that creates - however - is how you get the water out of the tank, and that's generally some form of overflow. And that usually has a huge visual impact. I've spent some time thinking about how to do a BeanAnimal overflow, but modified to eliminate the overflow - just three pipes coming up from the bottom of the tank (through bulkheads). Each pipe would be an overflow, and would need hiding by plants. I've been in touch with some engineers who feel it would work. But to my knowledge, no one has ever tried it.

Any way, it's an option for an open loop (sump) option on a big tank. 

And sorry about the delay on tank shots... will do soon. Have not forgotten.


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## Phil Edwards

Steve,

Here are some shots of the filter intake on the beasts ADA did at the Sumida Aquarium. I hope you find it helpful. FYI, the pipes go down to an S made from two 90 degree elbows with a little spacer between. I'm pretty sure they had to do this so they didn't drill through the bottom brace, or something. 

NOTE: This is the only time I've posted these photos anywhere. If they end up online anywhere else I'll know where they came from. * NOBODY has my permission to use these anywhere*. If you want to use them, shoot me a pm and ask permission. Chances are good I'll say yes.



It's a little hard to see, but there are 3 pipes. The one farthest from the side of the tank is clear PVC and if I remember correctly, it taller than the SCH80 intakes.




Sorry I couldn't get a clear shot of the bottom. The plants got in the way.


What about getting a nice weir overflow with holes drilled in it? It would be easy to hide behind that massive Anubias and will be clear if it's acrylic.

Or you could do it like this one. They drilled holes in the side of the tank and installed the pipes on the outside. That's easily hideable too.


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## scolley

Hey Phil. Thanks for those shots! What you are showing in the first shot is almost certainly a clear acrylic internal overflow box, with three drain pipes. Between having three pipes, and one being taller than the other - it's almost certainly of BeanAnimal design.

The "standard" alternative to that is an internal overflow box like on "reef ready" tanks. But IMO those look awful. This looks MUCH better. How I might have improved on the same design is to find clear acrylic instead of the dark pipes. Granted, dark can be hidden, and clear acrylic will gunk up. However, that gunk would have quite the natural look; green, brown, and not even in coloration. The same thing has occurred to the filter sacks that I put over the drain hardware inside my 180g. I try to hide them. But where they show, or peek through, you don't notice them because the color is so natural. Same thing I suspect if those pipes were clear (before they gunked up).

That's dramatically similar to what I was talking about - but not quite the same. The difference I was suggesting is eliminating the overflow, and position the three pipes wherever looked best. Now, if you found that clustering them together looked best, then you should do what ADA appears to have done by having them all in an overflow. But if separating them was better, you could build the appropriate drain edges (or teeth) into the pipes themselves, eliminating the overflow. That's what I have envisioned for a bigger, walk-around, reef tank, if I ever do one.

I've also got plans for an "invisible" return, and "invisible" circulation pumps. But I'm keeping the details of those to myself. I have seriously tinkered with marketing an AWESOME large, walk-around reef tank with ZERO visible hardware, incorporating some "zero edge" concepts, plus some other VERY unique water features that I'm not even willing to talk about. Lot's of patent possibilities there. And it would be one seriously breath taking tank. Seriously, I wish I could divulge the details as it would absolutely be the most awesome tank anyone has ever seen, anywhere. I really believe that. Would make the stuff the people on that "Tanked" show look like something done by amateurs by comarison. And oh, and did I mention hugely expensive? Could never afford one myself, but have the 75% complete concept diagrams in my filing cabinet. But I digress...

The tank with the hidden overflow. Very well done, and a GOOD example of a way to reduce visible hardware, why escaping the tyranny of closed loop systems! roud:


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## Phil Edwards

Steve,

As long as there was some sort of bracing to hold the downdrafts in place, or a thick enough pipe and good seams, I think you're right, they could go anywhere in the tank. All you'd need would be acrylic plumbing. 

I'm pretty sure ADA could have gotten away with not using the overflow. I think they did it to keep the uppermost part of the water column in the corner free of visual obstruction since the plants didn't go all the way to the top. 

Are you going to drain and drill this bad boy?


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## scolley

Phil - it's already totally drilled (8-10 holes). My 180 I mean.

If you are referring to my concept tank, I really want to do a proof of concept. But even a small scale version would cost $15-20K or so in materials. And that's just what you would normally think of as the tank, stand, sump and pumps. Toss in another couple grand for other equipment, a couple more for lights, more for live rock, and more for fish and coral. Before you know it a little proof of concept tank just set you back $30K or more.

And it would need a really big room to display it properly. It's a walk-a-round with a LARGE footprint. So if I'm estimating the space requirements correctly, even a small one would need a 20' x 15' patch of open floor space to show it off correctly. So there are a few impediments to a PoC. But I'm still mulling it over...


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## flutterbug

I'd love to see an updated photo! Even if it is overgrown, I actually like that look. I just got 7 Discus and I'm trying to figure out what I want to do when they are grown out and ready for a planted tank. Thanks so much.


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## scolley

Sorry to be delayed on the pics. Had a busy week or two. But a long weekend is coming. Maybe this weekend...

BTW - even as I apologize for the overgrown look of the tank, I like it. Very natural looking. And while you miss that important "Wow!" factor when much of the tank is not easily seen, it also gives lots of little delightful things to see for those willing to peer into it up close. 

Hopefully it will be helpful to you flutterbug, once I get the pics up.


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## jmhart

Man, I'll tell you. I feel like you're me, maybe a year or to ahead. Things were so full blast until life took over. Kids were what did it for me. Bought the house, bought the huge tank, got it going good and BAM!, kids. Love my kids, no competition at all.

I guess just commenting to say it's funny to me and i get it...well, really, that it's funny to me BECAUSE I get it. The long drawn out life of this thread. I feel like my big tank thread is like this too....except not as epic. 

Anyway, hope all is well.


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## scolley

Hey folks! Long time no post...

Swinging in now to provide a "heads-up" to the fact that I'm going to sell the Sun of Kahuna. Nothing's wrong with it - never been better in fact. But the wife and I are empty nesters now, and have decided to move. And - as much as I love 'em - the tanks have to go. Please expect to see a listing in the "For Sale/Trade" forum soon.

Anyone that has followed this thread pretty much has full insight into the tank. The minor leaks on the Ocean Clear filters were resolved when I replaced the o-rings AND one of the screw-down lids. The small leaks that the Pentair heater modules have been resolved. But it requires pulling each one out and re-sealing them. No leaks from anything in the system for years now. So all that's resolved.

The electronic dual ballast powering Aqua Medic MH Oceanlights burned out a while back. But I simply pulled the original (unused) magnetic ballasts out of the attic, and they're fine.

As for the plants? Algae pretty much went away when I shut down the CO2. Did that a few years ago, and cleaning tank walls and trimming plants magically transformed into a merely twice a year experience. FINALLY I achieved the darned-near-no-maintenance tank that was originally dreamed of. And what about the fish?

The Tefe Green discus have matured nicely. Now they are full RSG's (red spotted greens), and look fabulous. But they fight. Or at least used to. I had an alpha that was an unrelenting bully. He beat a couple to death before he succumbed himself. Now they are a mere five. But it's five that get a long well. Amazing the clean-up crew is still there, except for the school or Rummy-Nose Tetras. Not a long lived fish to begin with. But there's still around 20 or so that must have some of Methusula's genes in them somewhere. 

And to my amazement, I've even got some Amano shrimp in there. I have now idea how many years it's been since I bought shrimp. But it's been quite a few. Same thing with those Methusula genes I guess.

Will try to get some pics out. Please look for the posting in the "For Sale/Trade" forum soon. :smile2:


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## Minsc

I remember watching you set this one up. It makes me really happy it has gone this long, and is being dismantled because it is time, not a disaster. 
Congrats on the epic tank, I hope to see you build another some day.


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## scolley

Minsc said:


> I remember watching you set this one up. It makes me really happy it has gone this long, and is being dismantled because it is time, not a disaster.
> Congrats on the epic tank, I hope to see you build another some day.


Minsc - Thanks so much for that sentiment. It's exactly as I feel...

I shudder to think how long this thing has been up and running. A few kinks here and there, sure. But it hit stride years ago, and has been a wonderful tank. It's biggest limitation is the artistic skill (or lack thereof) of its owner. LOL. But it's design has - for all it's faults - over time proven to be a killer tank for keeping discus with plants, with very - very - low maintenance as an objective.

And now, life moves on. It's been a joyous tank to own. A delight to visitors in my home. And now I'll be looking to transfer ownership.

The only thing we can be sure of in life, is change. :smile2:


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## thelub

Wow blast from the past! Glad to hear it's all doing well. 

How is the reef tank?


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## scolley

thelub said:


> How is the reef tank?


Dead!

Bummer too. Had honestly reached nano-TOTM quality. A real knockout. But I let my auto waterchange saltwater reservoir get too low, and water drained out (only a few gallons) with no replacement water. My fault, and not a big deal. Had to do a bit of unexpected manual work - primarily mixing saltwater. But before I could finish, had to catch a train for a business trip. So I had my son finish up for me.

When I arrived at my destination, my phone rang. Was my son telling me that there was water all over the floor. Salt water. And that all the lights and pumps on the tank were off. So I told him to stay clear of it, and check the GFCI plug that the tank got it's AC power from. The breaker had tripped. When he reset it, the tank powered up for about 2 seconds, then the breaker tripped again. Had him do it again. Same result.


_"Want me to help you diagnose it Dad?"

"No pal. Thanks. What I want is for you to unplug the power, wait until tomorrow so that my backup battery has run down, and clean up the water. But not until then."

"Why?"

"There's an electrical short somewhere. And I don't want you anywhere near that water."

"But won't all the coral and fish die?"

"Yup. But at least you won't. So please unplug the plug, and stay away from that water until tomorrow. Thanks."_​

Bummer. :frown2: But true.


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## billb

Loved this thread and that tank. It's longevity was a tribute to an excellent design. Hope you will be able to fit another tank (and start another thread) into your future plans.


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## Mxx

Your tanks and thread have certainly been inspirational and very helpful. And that's heart-breaking about the reef tank! For us to be cautious, what was the cause of the water leak and the short? I nearly offed myself trying to fix my vacuum as per the online instruction manual, so it is something to be cautious about!

Very curious what you said about stopping algae growth and achieving a low-maintenance result when you turned the CO2 off, which is in contrast to what we usually hear. Can you explain why you think that might have been the case, with regards to the maintenance and dosing routine you were keeping?


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