# Green water algae?



## Barbels (Aug 3, 2004)

Tank is almost 3 months old. 75 gallons, pressurized Co2 28ppm. 
2.9 wpg compact lighting, 100% Eco-Complete.

I have been battling green water now for 6 weeks or so.
Can anyone point me in the direction of what Mr.Tom Barr has said about green water? I might feel better if I could read what he advises.

I have been doing 50% water changes 3 times a week, each time adding back 3.75 tsp.(5ml/20 gal) Yamato Green N plant food. 
It wasn't until a couple weeks ago that I got a jug of iron and one of potassium. So I have been also adding them in equal amounts to the plant food only lately.

A month ago, the 3Xweekly water changes+plant food began making a difference. Then I tried to go to once a week water changes. At that time I did not yet own any potassium or iron. It was hard to know how much to feed, but I tried feeding 3 times a week, in between water changes. At that point, I must have done something wrong because the green water came back and has continued to get worse. According to my Aquarium Pharmaceuticals nitrate test kit, my nitrate is staying at 5.0.

Plant growth took off like mad when I added the iron and potassium. Except the Ludwigia glandulosa which was a nice dark fuschia color when I first got it. Now it seems to have lost much of the good coloring. It has improved a little since the iron and potassium. Maybe it needs more time.

I have no other algae problems. I don't know why, I just thank God for it. If you have any suggestions, please simplify the lingo as much as you can, as I am as green as my water where this is all concerned.

I am sorry for such a long post, and actually I left out a bunch.
Anyway, I'd appreciate it if you'd point me in the direction of what Tom Barr says about green water.


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## Creedog (Dec 17, 2004)

Wow, you still fighting that green water. This maybe a dumb question but do you have a PO4 test kit. Any idea of your levels?


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

You have the light and C02, now you need some real ferts.
I would chunk the Yamato Green, and get some true ferts from gregwatson.com and dose accordingly...if you need help with that, just ask.:wink: 

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Algae/green-water.html#34


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## observant_imp (Jun 30, 2004)

Excellent link--wish I'd seen that one a long time ago.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

I battled green water for quite awhile once. I found a cure after it kept recurring even though I had used a DI Vortex (diatomaceous earth filter) a couple of times. The cure involved a water change, two or three day blackout, use of a DI Vortex or similar DE filter and a Nitrasorb sponge. The details of this cure can be found on the All Wet Thumbs forum of Aquabotanic. Of course the underlying cause is usually that the macros are out of balance. HTH Bob


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## Barbels (Aug 3, 2004)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> You have the light and C02, now you need some real ferts.
> I would chunk the Yamato Green, and get some true ferts from gregwatson.com and dose accordingly...if you need help with that, just ask.:wink:


Thank you very kindly. Ho, I need help. 

I find the Greg Watson ferts talk to be very intimidating, but I would love to understand what I'll need from him for my 75g. I realize every tank is unique, but can you please list (in simple terms) what I should buy? Maybe even describe what some of the abbreviations are?
For starters, is there a rule of thumb as to how much powder I should mix with water and then how much of each mixture I should put in my 75g? Is it possible to explain without metric measurements?
:icon_roll Where all this is concerned, I'm not too bright in case you hadn't noticed, so please be gentle and speak very slowly.


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## Biorium (Dec 24, 2004)

you know what i discovered and really works with green algae  
just reduce the lighting so is enough to see the fish, 
Raise the temperature to 84-86 degrees ( If your're fish are too sentistive to temps, do not do this ) 
Then add some aquaclear. And in a couple of days it will be gone. 

I had this problem over 5 times in the past 10 years. Always works for me.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Barbels said:


> Thank you very kindly. Ho, I need help.


Your welcome very kindly :wink: I'll do my best.


Barbels said:


> I realize every tank is unique.


I think that is a mis-conception that we have "heard" and then believed without further investigation.
We want to grow weeds underwater, which require Light, C02, Nutrients, in that respect, all planted tanks are the same!


Barbels said:


> I find the Greg Watson ferts talk to be very intimidating, but I would love to understand what I'll need from him for my 75g.
> Can you please list (in simple terms) what I should buy? Maybe even describe what some of the abbreviations are?


Please don't be intimidated by that.

This is what you should buy:
Plantex CSM+B 1lb. Price: $8.59 
KN03 Potassium Nitrate 1lb. Price: $2.17 
KH2P04 Mono Potassium Phosphate 1lb. Price: $3.42 
K2S04 Potassium Sulfate 1lb. Price: $2.17 
Iron Chelate Price: $8.59 
Magnesium Sulfate 1 lb. Price: $0.85 
http://www.gregwatson.com/products.asp?cat=8

55 to 75gal This is how I would start.

1)CSM+B Plantex Micro Nutrient Trace/Mix 1Tbsp with 250ml water/ 2 Tbsp with 500ml water. (5ml per capfull) Dose 2 to 3 capfulls=10 to 15ml every other day, No more than 3x a week (I'll draw you a plan.)

2)KN03= Potassium Nitrate(Nitrate N03) Dose dry 1/2 to 3/4Tsp. No more than 3x a week.

3)KH2P04= Mono Potassium Phosphate.(Phosphate P04) Dose dry 1/4 to 1/3 Tsp. No more than 3x a week.

4)K2S04= Potassium Sulfate(Potassium K) Dose dry 1/4 Tsp. No more than 3x a week.
Notice #2, KN03, the K in KN03 is Potassium, but is a small amount, with high light C02 injection, more is required, thats why the K2S04 Potassium Sulfate.

5) Iron Chelate.(Fe) Mix 1Tbsp per 250ml Dose 3 to 4ml (Edit: maybe even start with 1 to 2ml every other day, No more than 3x a week.

6) Magnesium Sulfate/Mg aka Epsom Salt Dose dry 2 to 3 Tsp @ water change. 1x a week if kh is below3dkh

Next trip to walmart, swing by the utensil's section and get you some measuring spoons, I was by there the other day and they still have them, stainless 2 sets, one is for dash, pinch, smidgen, and the other is from 1/4Tsp, 1/2Tsp, 1Tsp, 1Tbsp

When you have all the chemicals in hand and start to dose, Dose on the small side which I have listed above Ex. 1/2 to 3/4 Tsp KN03, start with 1/2 Tsp etc.
Note: with all the above dosing regimen, you should not have to dose no more than 3x a week as listed in rtf file. I will provide.

You may or may not have to tweak amounts here and there to suit your tanks needs depending on what you are growing, how heavy planted the tank is, fish load etc. with the chart I have made for you by adjusting the amounts, but not the frequency in which you dose, be dilligent and disciplined :wink: Keep tank as clean as possible, clean filter every 2nd water change, change at least 50% water weekly.

What kind of filter do you have? and what media do you use? with canister filter, I use the Polyester Fiber Floss, found at wal mart also, for $2 last a long time for very cheap.

Maintain a 25 to 30 ppm C02 reading from the kh/ph/C02 chart, I use this downloadable version on Chucks site because it will adjust, where as the online one's are set, I maintain a ph of 6.5 and most online one's do not go that low. 
So download this and use the C02 chart.
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_aquacalc.htm


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Used up the character limit in the above post, had to start another.



Barbels said:


> :icon_roll Where all this is concerned, I'm not too bright in case you hadn't noticed, so please be gentle and speak very slowly.


I would not say that about myself dear, maybe uninformed on a particular subject, that does not make you less intelligent, I will be as gentle as I know how :tongue:

Seems like alot, but really it's not..hehe I made a rhyme, Relax, grab a cup of coffee, I would like to see a picture of your tank, to have an idea of what your tank looks like. PM me a picture if you feel uncomfortable posting on site. Please! :wink:

Could you post your tap water readings? and tank readings? before you start dosing.
ph
kh
n03
po4 

75Gal Ex.


Okay, Now here is an actual blank rtf which stands for "Rich Text File" it's built in wordpad which is a standard with most all windows operating systems.
Download this, save it on your partition or where ever you choose.
Once you download it, open it, click on file upper left save as: then just rename it, barb's 75, my tank, or any name you choose, this will in turn give you another copy, when you fill it up, simply rename it and you can start over with a fresh rtf, this will help you keep track of what your dosing etc.
RTF

I think I have covered most everything, hope this helps you, any more questions just ask, myself or anyone with an estimative dosing knowledge can pipe in and help I am sure.

While doing the above dosing regimen, be warned, plants will grow so be ready to mow your tank at least every two weeks roud:

Craig


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## Kris (Feb 27, 2004)

craig--
i downloaded that form and saved it to my computer!
i plan to put it to use as soon as i make my next water change!
thanks for putting it in the "public", i'm certain that many people have a similar set-up, but it was nice to see as a "starting point" at the very least.
kris


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## Barbels (Aug 3, 2004)

Craig!
OH. MY. GAWSH.
Whew, I finally feel more eager than intimidated, thanks to you.
I just placed my order and I couldn't believe how reasonable the price was.
I will follow your instructions as closely as I can. I shall get that other info posted as soon as I can.
I am getting so excited. Thank you so much for all your trouble.


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## Creedog (Dec 17, 2004)

Dang, thats one heck of a post. I think I will book mark this one for later.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Right on Kris, just don't dose as much as I have listed for your 20g

Barb.. your welcome! roud:


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## jippalbert (Dec 12, 2004)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> just don't dose as much as I have listed for your 20g




Wö£fëñxXx What would the dosing values be for a 55g tank. You laid everything out that i was lacking except how you came to those values for a 75G tank. 


Thanks
Ja


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

jippalbert said:


> Wö£fëñxXx What would the dosing values be for a 55g tank. You laid everything out that i was lacking except how you came to those values for a 75G tank.
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Ja


In a nut shell, Tom Barr's Estimative Index of Dosing, simple math along with chuck's calculator, I have a 46g and a 55g, I have tested & use this index with great results. 
You got to have a little more C02 than you have listed though, but the dosing would be close to the same.

I got tired of testing all the time which is BS basically, just to maintain a value that is hard to maintain with high light and C02, you don't want any of your nutrient's to bottom out at any time during the week. Only thing I test now is kh/ph, everything else is estimated dosing with great results.
http://www.aquatic-plants.org/est_index1.html

Hope that helps 
Craig


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## ksand (Oct 19, 2004)

Hey, Wö£fëñxXx, nice job. You should just put that into a web page and then you can just post a link.

Barbels, I'm a beginner, too. It helps to be organized, because it's real confusing at first. I got some nice glass canisters at the dollar store and labeled each one KNO3, K2SO4, KH2PO4, MgSO4, CSM+B.

I also write stuff down, like a diary. It took me a while to get comfortable with it. I use stock solutions because I'm not comfortable yet with dry dosing. I use a graduated cylinder that I bought from a science store. I know how many milliliters of each stck solution to put into my different sized tanks (I have 8) to get the desired ppm levels. I also use Nitrate and Phosphate test kits, because I feel better if I can confirm the dosing levels. I also do regular water changes and make sure my filters are clean.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Testing can be a bear and expensive.
But when you need to know some things, it helps.
Test kits should always be compared to a known standard to ensure their accuracy. All scientific research requires this approach for calibration and ensurance.

Plants can be used as indicators and with time, most get good at this. The plants will neve rlie, if the CO2 is low, the Riccia will not pearl, if the NO3 is too low, the M. umbrosum with not grow and look raggy, if the PO4 is too low, the Anubias will get green spot algae, if the filters are dirty, low water currents/low NO3, BGA etc.

While many use the EI, the problems folks have with algae can be dealt with, often times with knowning very little about the person's tank. 

This makes it easier on everyone involved top solve the issue/s for an intregrated management approach to your tank. 

After doing this for many years, you get good. Then you can go help others.

GW is tough to kill without a UV/Diatom, micron filtration etc.
Less light generally helkps most algae issues also.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Tom, Thank You! for the EI. you did all the legwork and we get to reap the rewards. So thanks, now we get to spread the gospel :wink:


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## Barbels (Aug 3, 2004)

Is there any chance that the green water may go away if I can get my imbalance balanced and without my having to use a UV/diatom?Say yes, say yes, say yes...


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

It is possible yes, but, as Tom states above, it is difficult, I had green water once, about a year ago, left for vacation for 7 days came back to an aweful mess, took me about a month to get back right, I did break down and buy a Whisper Diatomagic filter during that time, and have since bought a UVS.
Have not had to use the Diatom filter since.
Keep us posted, 
I have the Diatom filter sitting around, I think I still have the box it came in, I could ship it to you along with some powder if need be, till you get it sorted, then you could ship it back.

Craig


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## Barbels (Aug 3, 2004)

Wolfie(teehee),
You are a sweet, sweet pea. No, I suppose I'll shop around and stinkin buy one somewhere. I last did a water change this Monday( it's been hard to resist, as I had been doing them 3 times a week trying to keep up with it.) usually the water's back to green in 24 hours. It has been 4 days now and while the water is getting slightly cloudier :icon_cry: each day, it's not green yet.
But yay! My GW ferts arrived just today! I went to a pharmacy and the pharmacist was nice enough to sell me some dark plastic cough medicine type bottles. I cannot wait to get busy. 
But, thank you Craig. You have, by far, done more than enough.
Sue


Wö£fëñxXx said:


> I have the Diatom filter sitting around, I think I still have the box it came in, I could ship it to you along with some powder if need be, till you get it sorted, then you could ship it back.Craig


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

It is a nice tool to have on hand for sure, but I really don't have a problem sending it to you, once you get a grip on your dosing, you probably will not need one much if any at all.
If you do choose to buy one, get yourself the Whisper Diatomagic, it will be much more simple and easy for you to use,I can't remember where I got mine, it was either bigalsonline, or Dr Foster&Smith 65 or 70 bux, swing by your local pool supply store and grab a 25lb bag of Diatom powder, about $12.
LOL it will ruin before you use it all. but nice to have.

Craig=)


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## Barbels (Aug 3, 2004)

I'm sold. Can't wait to get one. Good thing you're not naughty, seems like I'm ready to do just about whatever you say, teehee.
I'm freaking out here, according to DrsF&S, in order to use the Diatomagic, you should "Remove all coverings from the aquarium such as glass tops, hoods, etc." WHAT?!  I can't do that, my crazy little Dwarf Loaches will surely jump plum outta there. Can we make an exception, here?
My fish just arrived day before yesterday, man I wish I woulda done this a long time ago. That's crazy, did you remove your top?


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

Barbels said:


> Is there any chance that the green water may go away if I can get my imbalance balanced and without my having to use a UV/diatom?Say yes, say yes, say yes...


You don't have to pick one up, but many have dealt w/GW by using one. I opt not to and the following is the progress of my tank in regards to the GW. BTW, the tank was set up on 11/24/04.

12/2/04:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=587

12/5/04 (beginning of GW outbreak):









12/11/04:









1/21/04 (taken a few minutes ago before lights out):


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Barbels said:


> That's crazy, did you remove your top?


I don't use a top,(only on the 46g) they annoy me..lol
My setup is open top, my Aqualight has leg's, I've only lost two fish in two years, one SAE, and a Redtail Black Shark.
I didn't want to lose either, but, that's how it goes, I suppose 
There are exception's but it really depend's on you equipment: ie glass top, canopy etc, if canopy ya, it has to come off, the diatom filter is only a temp thing though, not ment to run 24/7
If you are completely worried about your fishie's making the dive of death, you can alway's load up the diatom filter, get it running, then saran wrap the tank top... hehe hey it would work and give you piece of mind.. LOL


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## Barbels (Aug 3, 2004)

Saran Wrap. Dangit, why didn't I think of that.
I will be happy to use it. I'm just curious though, why would one have to remove anything in the first place? Is the filter so big that one cannot just open the glass top and go from there?
I do not have a canopy, just glass top & lights on that.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

If you have a 6 to 8 inch clearance for filter to work, ya you can leave top on:tongue:
I put a small mediabad/sock with a string tie over faucet to reduce 1) noise 2) splash.


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## Barbels (Aug 3, 2004)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> If you have a 6 to 8 inch clearance for filter to work, ya you can leave top on:tongue:
> I put a small mediabad/sock with a string tie over faucet to reduce 1) noise 2) splash.


Groovy indeed, I cannot wait. Goshdangit, it sure feels good to finally feel excited instead of intimidated. ThankU. :wink:


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Is silence a good thing?
How are things going there Barb?


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

Craig, is that a pic of the Diatomagic? If so, I'm glad I went with the Vortex even though it's a pain to charge and etc. as I _do_ have a canopy on my tank and it'd be more of a pain to have to remove all of that every time I wanted to run the thing rather than just prop the top and drape the tubing over the side. B*gger's got me spoiled already though as it sure does a job on cloudy water!


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## Barbels (Aug 3, 2004)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> Is silence a good thing?
> How are things going there Barb?


Heya, Wolfie...
I am sicker than a stinkin DOG. (It must be contagious, even my stupid computer went down for a couple days) On the 9th of this month I began coming down with what now I think was Respiratory Flu. I put off going to the doc. My lungs were painful for 5 days and I finally tried to get in to the doc but had to see the nurse practitioner. She said it was the tail end of bronchitis and she prescribed 3 days of Prednisone. By the 3rd day of the Prednisone, I felt 99% better. That was this Monday.
I woke up Tuesday morning having been hit full blast with what seemed like a bad cold. Now my lungs are painful again, I'm fevery and my sinus feels like somebody is pulling on my eyeballs. Eeeew.
I'm gonna give my boy a ride to school in about 15 minutes and then I'm gonna try to get an appt with the doc. Gads, what a pain.
Wow, you didn't know you were gonna ask a simple question and get to read a novel, huh.
I am gonna run this monkey and will keep ya posted.
Thank you for asking, very kind of you.
Barb


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

*Whisper Diatomagic*

I got interested in this piece of gear about 6 months ago, and couldn't find it anywhere. I believe Whisper stopped making it some time back. Only replacement parts and media seem to be available.


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## Barbels (Aug 3, 2004)

aquaverde said:


> I got interested in this piece of gear about 6 months ago, and couldn't find it anywhere. I believe Whisper stopped making it some time back. Only replacement parts and media seem to be available.


Hmm, hope not. I find it in my DrsF&S catalog under item #MA-519357. It think this is their most recent catalog, pg 7. Although when I type in the item # at their website, it only brings up the filter powder.


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

Just called customer service. It is not carried. 

Only possibility now would be NOS somewhere in someone's warehouse. Not sure if it's a good idea to purchase it now anyway, since its out of production. Might be better to investigate what other products are available that would do the same thing, e.g. Vortex, System 1. I doubt there's anything for less than twice the price of the Diatomagic.

Maybe someone else has some info on this. I think DE powder in a Magnum HOT might work, and they priced out around $40 a year ago online.


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## Barbels (Aug 3, 2004)

Yeah, crumb, I stand corrected. I just called them, too. Discontinued. :icon_frow 
I called Tetra, too. Discontinued. He said while it was a great product, demand was low.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

RoseHawke said:


> Craig, is that a pic of the Diatomagic? If so, I'm glad I went with the Vortex even though it's a pain to charge and etc. as I _do_ have a canopy on my tank and it'd be more of a pain to have to remove all of that every time I wanted to run the thing rather than just prop the top and drape the tubing over the side. B*gger's got me spoiled already though as it sure does a job on cloudy water!


Hello Cindy
Good move on the Vortex, nice filter also,
I was torn, while trying to decide, I chose the Whisper over the vortex for the ease of use/re-charge ability. canopy is not a problem for me....

Like the other post's above, I just found out last couple of day's that it is unavailable :icon_frow 

Hope you get to feeling better Barb!!

Thanks for the confirmation James 
roud:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

UV is very easy to use, flip a switch, wait.
Diatoms are useful for polishing, but so is a big old water change.
After fiddling, etc with the diatom, I like the water chnages, and I can redose things, clean any detritus out as well.

Micron filters are nice also, simply bleach them after your done, they cost 5-10$ each and late awhile, uses standard 9 3/4" cartiages for around 10-20$.

Like a plant tank, take care of yourself and you will not get lung algae
Hope you feel better. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

I dunno, Tom, I found after the WC's that the water was clear_er_, but not like sparkly *clear* if ya knowwhutImean :icon_bigg . A UV is in the future at some point, though.

Barb, here's hoping you get over the "crud" soon. S'no fun being sick :icon_frow , 'specially when you've got things to do, or things you _have_ to do anyway.


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## Barbels (Aug 3, 2004)

You kids are very kind.
Went to the doc yesterday, got lungs x-ray'd, no pneumonia, yay.
Bronchitis is still a problem in there. Got a prescription for 100mg Doxyclycl, 2 per day x 10 days. The cold seems to be subsiding. Dang, I do believe that was the worst cold I have ever had in my life.
My Dad passed away on November 15. While my Savior bears me up like He said He would, I believe there is still a certain amount of underlying stress. 
As I teacher's aide, my entire day is spent surrounded by little germbags(the precious little dumplings :icon_roll ) everywhere. I think my defenses were down at this time and it really wiped me out for a while.
Anyway, I think things are finally looking up.
Thank you so much,
Sue


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

"Kids?" Thank you :icon_bigg !


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Kid's LOL, I like that, I have two teens and a 21 year old I sometimes get just downright gooooophy with, crazy thing is they love it.. :icon_idea 
When they were smaller, in elementary school, they bring all kinds of crap home..lol So I understand the "little germbag" statement.

Sorry to hear about your dad, I can only imagine the grief 
But I see the DOC gave you a regime to follow :icon_idea roud:

Seeing how the Diatomagic filter is not available now, purchase you a UVS instead, I think you will be more satified with it, I will still send you my diatom filter if you need it, like my kids say, aint nuthing but a thang.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

RoseHawke said:


> I dunno, Tom, I found after the WC's that the water was clear_er_, but not like sparkly *clear* if ya knowwhutImean :icon_bigg . A UV is in the future at some point, though.
> 
> Barb, here's hoping you get over the "crud" soon. S'no fun being sick :icon_frow , 'specially when you've got things to do, or things you _have_ to do anyway.


Yes, Diatoms will polish well, so will micron filters, I use bag filters personally, lastr longer and don't influence flow rates in my sump, I suppose I could run a micron filter canister loop in the there independent of the return or main filter.

I just don't like them because of set up and the temporay nature.
UV: I flip a switch on/off.
Micron filter I run till it clogs, then toss the cartiage or bleach it and start over.Also much cheaper and I will always have access to parts and replacement supplies.
Any Diatoms for 25$?
None I've seen, but rentals are nice from the LFS's.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## raykwonx (Feb 26, 2004)

Hope you feel better. How's the green water coming along Barb? I battled with it for about 4 weeks a while back. Pain in the @$$. I was doing water changes almost every day just so I could see through the water. In the end, I found out that the water changes were causing it. The city did something with the water cleaning system and the phosphates in the tap water sky rocketed for a while. I started doing my water changes with R/O water and triple dosed with Seachem "Clarity" every few days and it cleared up in about a week. I'm not sure what caused the GW outbreak, but I'm sure the phosphates in the water is what kept it going for so long. None of my other tanks had a bloom. Aside from that, I used to get GW walgae blooms in my 10 gallon tank all the time since it was near a window, and I would just dose with a product called "Algae Fix" which usually cleared it up in a few hours.


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## Barbels (Aug 3, 2004)

Raykwonx...
Thank you for asking, I think I'm on the mend.
GW is still around. I am so grateful, for so far it's the only algae in there.
I started dosing with the GW ferts on Monday. Hope the diatom gets here soon. I feel hopeful about getting things cleared up and keeping them that way once I can run the diatom and the plants are more content. Who knows.
There for a while I was doing water changes every other day even though I suspected it might not be the wisest thing to do.
I requested a report from my water company. So far I have gotten nothing from them.


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## Anthony (Jan 11, 2005)

I just did a 2 day blackout on the first day the water turned green. I also had diatom, and hair algae. Water is crystal clear, algae is dead, and most of my plants have gained inches in size. Co 2 was also about 30-50 ppm. DIY just wouldn't slow down and wasn't being used.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Anthony said:


> I just did a 2 day blackout on the first day the water turned green. I also had diatom, and hair algae. Water is crystal clear, algae is dead, and most of my plants have gained inches in size. Co 2 was also about 30-50 ppm. DIY just wouldn't slow down and wasn't being used.


Be sure to dose KN03. C02 @30ppm is perfect..keep at it and be patient


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## raykwonx (Feb 26, 2004)

> I just did a 2 day blackout on the first day the water turned green. I also had diatom, and hair algae. Water is crystal clear, algae is dead, and most of my plants have gained inches in size.


I've heard of great success from blacking out your tank, but I was always afraid of killing off my plants. I had a red-rubin sword in my tank that I did not want to kill and it needs quit a bit of light.


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## zeek (Jan 10, 2005)

About a week and a half ago I got a bad case of GW due to a phosphate overdose in a phosphate-limited system (Sears-Conlin). I had not had GW since first setting up my aquarium five or six years ago... and I felt like a newbie again because I was powerless against it! I could not get rid of it, but refused to do a blackout because the last time I did that my plants suffered more than anything else.

The LFS's loaner UV sterilizer was loaned to someone else, and they recommended some Kent's Pro-Clear Freshwater. http://www.kentmarine.com/watertreatments/procf.html They assured me that my Apisto's would be fine, but cautioned me it would lower the hardness by two degrees. Since I keep my hardness around 6* I was not worried.

After dosing the required amount my Tetras began schooling in one big school (not normal) and the Apistos began suffering very badly. They were hovering at the top of the tank, breathing erratically, hardly moving, showing stress bands like a Discuss, and the males were not threatening one another on sight. I thought they were all going to die and did an emergency 35% water change. After awhile they calmed down... 

During this time the water became CRYSTAL clear, looking very polished. I've never seen the water shine like that before. The wife and kids were even amazed, and they don't usually care... This morning the tank was still very clear and all the fish seemed back to normal. So far no deaths and they were all eating.

The water is clear... but I nearly lost some prized Apistos last night. If you choose this method I would recommend dosing at 1/3rd or 1/2 dosage to start and monitor your fish. No way I'd use this with Discus.


Isaac


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

Just curious- how was it you got a phosphate overdose?


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## zeek (Jan 10, 2005)

aquaverde said:


> Just curious- how was it you got a phosphate overdose?



Operator error... I dosed too much Potassium Phosphate 


Isaac


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

Thanks for responding. Running according to Conlin-Sears, I thought you wouldn't be dosing ANY phosphates, so it was hard for me to understand how that came about.

I've run phosphate a bit high in my tank before without any noticeable algae increase, and actually try to maintain 2ppm because it discourages spot algae.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Considering that PO4 is/used to be added a "buffer" to lower the pH at very high rates, I find the fish health issue extremely suspect.

The GW has never been shown to be inducible using PO4.........
I have induced it many times and in block experiments using urea, fish loads and NH4.

NO3 went to 75ppm, PO4 to 2.0ppm.

I do not see how more than 2.0ppm would cause an algae bloom, at 2.0, that's pretty non limiting for any plant which has far more nutrient demand than GW, which has a 2 to 4 micron diameter.

Lower light will allow blackouts to work but generally the UV/Micron filtration works best.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## fishyface (Oct 7, 2004)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> 1)CSM+B Plantex Micro Nutrient Trace/Mix 1Tbsp with 250ml water/ 2 Tbsp with 500ml water. (5ml per capfull) Dose 2 to 3 capfulls=10 to 15ml every other day, No more than 3x a week (I'll draw you a plan.)
> 
> 5) Iron Chelate.(Fe) Mix 1Tbsp per 250ml Dose 3 to 4ml (Edit: maybe even start with 1 to 2ml every other day, No more than 3x a week.


Hey Wö£fëñxXx, this is great info. but i have a question for you if you would be so kind. i've been using the ppmd regime (including PO4,N03 epson salts and K2S04)for a few months but have not been using the CSM+B trace mix. instead in went to a local hydroponics shop and purchased chelated trace iron mix which is as follows:
7%fe
2%Mn
1.3%B
.4%Zn
.1%Co
.06%Mo

now my question is...am i missing something here? tank is 55g, 260w, c02 @ 30 ppm plants are doing ok but would like to see more pearling. notice alot of people still use some of the flourish products. 
so now my question is am i getting enough iron? is this enough info for you to get an idea as to my dosing? any input would be greatly appreciated! oh yeah, n03 seems be fairly slow on the uptake i have a quite a bio load though so maybe i get enough from fish i'm guessing...but not sure!

p.s. i've also been battling a minor but annoying thread algae outbreak for the last few months with no success! :angryfire


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

fishyface said:


> Hey Wö£fëñxXx, this is great info. but i have a question for you if you would be so kind. i've been using the ppmd regime (including PO4,N03 epson salts and K2S04)for a few months but have not been using the CSM+B trace mix. instead in went to a local hydroponics shop and purchased chelated trace iron mix which is as follows:
> 7%fe
> 2%Mn
> 1.3%B
> ...


Hello Fishface
Thank you!
Those ingredients are very close to CSM
(Thank you Rolo for this info, I did a search and you came up )
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showpost.php?p=100677&postcount=8

Plain CSM:
Iron 7%
Manganese 2%
Magnesium 1.5%
Zinc .4%
Copper .10%
Molybdenum .05%
Boron 0.0%

Six-pack fert
Iron 7%
Manganese 2%
Zinc .4%
Copper .10%
Molybdenum .06%
Boron 1.3%

CSM+B:
Iron 6.53%
Manganese 1.87%
Magnesium 1.40%
Zinc .37%
Copper .09%
Molybdenum .05%
Boron 1.18%

Algae is growing because you are limiting uptake on something therefore plants are suffering and algae is abounding.
That is a buttload of light and I would suspect you are not dosing enough.

Tell me "Exactly" how you are dosing? and what you are using? PMDD? or individual ferts? KN03, KH2P04, K2S04, if PMDD/premix it will not be enough, you need better control.

With that much light you should be dosing hard! in a steady disciplined manner.
http://www.triplexclan.com/Aqua/75 ex.jpg
30ppm C02 is perfect keep it there and increase your ferts.
Hope that helps, let us know!!


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## fishyface (Oct 7, 2004)

ok, so it sounds like i'm on the right track huh? that's good :icon_bigg 

-i've been keeping my no3 and po4 at 5-10ppm and .1ppm respectively(dose seperately and usually every 2-3 days as needed)
-i add 10gr of epson salts and 8gr K2s04 after every water change (50% 1/week) and dose 2ml of trace mix everyday.

trace mix is per 250 ml water:
9gr chelate trace element
14 gr K2s04
33gr epson salts (water is very soft here 3-4dKH)

i've tried to dose more trace (up to 6ml/day thinking i was starving plants) but algae seemed to get worse!
lights are on a 12 hr timer with the first and last hours of the cycle just 130w.
does this help paint a better picture? i feel like i've tried varying my light and nutrient levels both up and down with not much luck so anything more you could help me with would be so much appreciated. is my premix outta whack and what can i do for "more control"?? 
your chart mentions iron also, do i need more? what do you suggest?

ps. thanks for the quick response from the first post!! :help:


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Bottom line...10:1 on your n03/p04 is not enough, it is bottoming out during the week and causing uptake problem's thus limiting plant growth, that's why your having algae problems, with C02 @30ppm I would dose per the schedule I listed above, same as many others,
50% H20 change weekly
1/2Tsp KN03 3x a week
1/8Tsp KH2P04 3x aweek
1/8Tsp K2S04 3x a week
10ml trace 3x aweek on off days of mAcro's

Clean as much algae out as possible
check the kh/ph/C02 scale again to make sure C02 is 30ppm

As far as dosing Iron, you will need to dose as per above on mIcro's and mAcro's or it will likely only cause you more problems.


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## fishyface (Oct 7, 2004)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> As far as dosing Iron, you will need to dose as per above on mIcro's and mAcro's or it will likely only cause you more problems.


roger that! will try your schedule...only question is then: trace and iron are different? what are you using to dose iron?

thanks for your help, i'll let ya know what happens!
roud:


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

fishyface said:


> trace and iron are different? what are you using to dose iron?


I use CSM+B and Iron Chelate.
http://www.gregwatson.com/products.asp?cat=8


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## fishyface (Oct 7, 2004)

perfect! thanks a pile for your help Craig, most appreciative. i'll repost in a week or two and let ya know my results!


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Right on Facedude.. I will be looking to hear from you with good results roud:


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## Fret (Jan 21, 2005)

Very informative thread!
Thanks.


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## fishyface (Oct 7, 2004)

Hey Craig, so it's been a week or so since i started dosing as per your routine (thanks again for that) and it does seem as though my thread algae is starting to diminish. i've also ordered and started dosing the 10% fe from g.watson, looking forward to see how that pans out.

anyhow, today is when i should be dosing macros so i tested just outta curiousity and it really seems as though i don't need to...no3 seem~25ish and p04 is very high also~but test kit's (find em hard to guage). so should i dose anyhow and just trust or should i lay off till next time and see if they drop? tank doesn't seem to be utilizing all that much, i wonder why (5+wpg, high c02) shouldn't i be burning through it?  :icon_roll :icon_conf


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## wetgreenthumb (Jan 6, 2005)

Whew! This is the third time I've read through this thread and my brain is going to explode!  pm'g Craig!


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

wetgreenthumb said:


> Whew! This is the third time I've read through this thread and my brain is going to explode!  pm'g Craig!


Yah, but it almost needs to be stickied. I've read through it a few times myself.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

fishyface said:


> Hey Craig, so it's been a week or so since i started dosing as per your routine (thanks again for that) and it does seem as though my thread algae is starting to diminish. i've also ordered and started dosing the 10% fe from g.watson, looking forward to see how that pans out.
> 
> anyhow, today is when i should be dosing macros so i tested just outta curiousity and it really seems as though i don't need to...no3 seem~25ish and p04 is very high also~but test kit's (find em hard to guage). so should i dose anyhow and just trust or should i lay off till next time and see if they drop? tank doesn't seem to be utilizing all that much, i wonder why (5+wpg, high c02) shouldn't i be burning through it?  :icon_roll :icon_conf


Make sure you're C02 is in good range or even on the high side, are you dosing trace hard?
if all this is so, then you can hold off till next dose if you choose, just keep an eye on it, the plant's & algae will tell you how thing's are going.

Keep in mind!?!
You may or may not have to tweak amounts here and there to suit your tanks needs depending on what you are growing, how heavy planted the tank is, fish load etc. by adjusting the amounts, but not the frequency in which you dose, be dilligent and disciplined Keep tank as clean as possible.

Thanks


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## fishyface (Oct 7, 2004)

co2 is in the low 50's, dosing 12ml trace, 2ml 10%fe and sticking to the schedule on everything else. water is good and clean, maybe i'll ease off on macros a touch due to fairly high fish content then...see what happens.

thanks craig roud: preaciate yer help!


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Your Welcome fishyfacedude, I hope everything work's out very well for you...

Keep in mind:
You may or may not have to tweak amounts here and there to suit your tanks needs depending on what you are growing, how heavy planted the tank is, fish load etc. by adjusting the amounts, but not the frequency in which you dose.

Thanks


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## khoile (Jan 27, 2005)

Hi,

Here's what I decided to does, please let me know if it's good.

I measured my tap and it does have 2ppm of phosphate, so I am not dosing KH2PO4.

On WC day, I does:
1/2 Tsp of Nitrate (KNO3)
1/4 Tsp of Potassium (K2SO4)

WC+1 day:
Mix 75ml to 1/4 Tsp of CSM+B, does 10ml
Mix 75ml to 1/4 Tsp of Iron Chelate, does 2ml

That what I got so far, my plan is:
WC+even day
Macros (KNO3, K2SO4)

WC+odd day
Micros (CSM+B, Fe)

Let me know if this is right or will it work? Please look at my sig for tank information.

Thanks.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

khoile said:


> Hi,
> 
> Here's what I decided to does, please let me know if it's good.
> 
> ...


Keep an eye on the P04 throughout the week to make sure it does not bottom out, you may need to dose midweek after plants get established, uptake may take off, just keep watch on it for a few week's.

As tank mature's and plant's grow heavy, you may want to up the KN03 to 3/4Tsp.
Go with 1/8Tsp K2S04..1/4Tsp being a tad to much

Make sure you're C02 stay's up during photoperiod.
Everything else look's good..


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