# Bloody Mary ain't worth the money



## James He (Sep 17, 2009)

you may wait a little bit longer to determine.

I heard it would turn more red over time.


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## Subtletanks91 (May 29, 2013)

This is normal with all new shrimp coming into the market, none breed true. Bloody Mary are supposed to be characterized as having short rostroms, yet a lot being exported to the us, and even bred and sold in the us have long rostroms. 

Once everyone sees a new shrimp color, species etc, everyone jumps on it without any research. With no questions, and this is the buyers fault not only the sellers.

I do agree wait it out. The shrimp pix you posted seem to have orange flesh tone, once the shell color thickens and colors in all the way it should be a solid red. Bloody Mary's were bred for red or orange flesh tone to darken the outer red shell.


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## jimko (Aug 17, 2007)

yeah. Rili shrimp are starting to pop out from my group. After eradicating all my rili and pfrs and starting new tanks I'm starting to get them in the BM group. Also, got shrimp that are orange, almost clear, yellow. It's a crazy group. I'm beginning to feel there may have been an additive in the food they feed the shrimps. Some hocus pocus stuff before importing out to get them to turn intense red. It may cover a couple of generations, but once the additive dilutes out well start seeing more and more true colors or flaws in the group.

??? Rili shrimps, really... that's the furthest away you can be in terms of red from BMs.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Rili is probably just a mutation or gene expression change. I got a single Rili from Supreme Reds after several generations.


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## Subtletanks91 (May 29, 2013)

If it was a food additive or a die it wouldn't effect the young or shrimplets being born. So for it to start "wearing off after a few generations" doesn't really make sence. 

There are true bloody Mary's out there. They have red or orange flesh and a red shell. But the key characteristic is a short rostrom.

There has been a huge discussion on it on another forum, this is nothing new.

Bump: Also realize that water parameters affect color intensities greatly. What could be a Taiwan fire red in my tank could be a pfr in someone else's tank. No two tanks are alike. Everyone's water chemistry is different.


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## colorfan (Nov 12, 2013)

Im getting Rili also out of my BMs


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## ch3fb0yrdee (Oct 2, 2008)

bandaiban said:


> This is my personal experience with these shrimps. I am really disappointed with what i got, and it seems like a lot of people is on the same boat. So just a heads up if anyone of you is about to spend your money on them. I think you should wait it out for a couple more months for breeders to have them breed more true. Out of 40 young baby shrimps, only 5 of them is good to keep to breed. The rest will be culls. I notice nobody is selling them as juvies or young adults, they're being sold as adults. So think twice before you invest in them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Real shame. I did know that the impurity was an underlining issue with the Bloody Mary. If I'm correct, another member experienced this random mutation a year and a half ago and posted his findings on The Planted Tank. EbiKen identified the shrimp as a Bloody Mary and estimated it would hit the market sometime this year, once a larger population could be produced and genes stabilized. I guess the genes never really stabilized. It's quite unfortunate as the shrimp itself is very nice, but for such top dollars (yes they are sold at huge premiums for being Neos) their genes are still to random to justify the huffy. I've spoken with a few members privately on the subject of Bloody Mary. There's so many shrimps available now that I chose not to get into Bloody Mary. Lucky for me. 



Subtletanks91 said:


> This is normal with all new shrimp coming into the market, none breed true. Bloody Mary are supposed to be characterized as having short rostroms, yet a lot being exported to the us, and even bred and sold in the us have long rostroms.
> 
> Once everyone sees a new shrimp color, species etc, everyone jumps on it without any research. With no questions, and this is the buyers fault not only the sellers.
> 
> I do agree to wait it out. The shrimp pix you posted seem to have orange flesh tone, once the shell color thickens and colors in all the way it should be a solid red. Bloody Mary's were bred for red or orange flesh tone to darken the outer red shell.



I'm not sure how normal it is, but it has become the norm. It wasn't like this before, at least not from what I could remember. There were certain minimal standards kept before as to what could be expected from a new shrimp. Given, shrimps didn't enter the market as rapidly as it did in the past. I believe this was because original breeders kept on to their product and worked at it until it was ready for market. Nowadays, it's either your first, or you're last. This is especially true with Neo who's can breed so rapidly profit is significantly reduced once it becomes available to the public. 

I heard that when Red Rili were the new hotness, there were two breeders simultaneously working on the strain not even realizing. 

Agreed that it's equally important for the seller to inform buyers if such "impurities" in the lineage and the buyer's own do-diligence to research before buying. 

It's just so hard when there's so many fantastic pictures!! [emoji16]



jimko said:


> yeah. Rili shrimp are starting to pop out from my group. After eradicating all my rili and pfrs and starting new tanks I'm starting to get them in the BM group. Also, got shrimp that are orange, almost clear, yellow. It's a crazy group. I'm beginning to feel there may have been an additive in the food they feed the shrimps. Some hocus pocus stuff before importing out to get them to turn intense red. It may cover a couple of generations, but once the additive dilutes out well start seeing more and more true colors or flaws in the group.
> 
> ??? Rili shrimps, really... that's the furthest away you can be in terms of red from BMs.



Interesting topic popped up on another forum over the matter of color enhancing agents in shrimp foods causing color changing reactions. I'm not expert but from a consumer standpoint, it's definitely a slippery slope when manufactures are adding these ingredients to their foods. Not saying this is happening for the Bloody Mary as I don't keep Bloody Mary myself, but it makes me question such tactics. Why is it that we argue the point of "organic" or healthy food alternative for our shrimps, but turn around buy a product confirmed to do quite the opposite.


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

This :
"This is normal with all new shrimp coming into the market, none breed true. Bloody Mary are supposed to be characterized as having short rostroms, yet a lot being exported to the us, and even bred and sold in the us have long rostroms. "

Is not true, this was a marketing tactic that one of the first creators of the stain said, that it had a short rostrom. They later balked at it when they were found sending out shrimp with out the short rostrom. a short rostrom would show as a defect in a shrimp more or less. The Distributor has now backed off this comment from everything I have read.

Bump: I have bloody marrys and I am seeing same numbers as the OP almost. Out of 50 shrimp kept 10. I am trying to see in 6-10 generations if all the good ones are kept if they will breed truer or if it is a lost cause


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

I like the orange color, they look like fanta. I guess the color you want is red?

How come people don't sell culls? Myself and I am pretty sure other people don't care to breed super high quality and just want them for fun.


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## Subtletanks91 (May 29, 2013)

That's good to know s.b. I haven't read anything since about the bloody Mary's. 

I stay away from new strains on the market until I know what's going on with genetics. But I also stay away from neos, there's not many problems like this with carids


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## James He (Sep 17, 2009)

I don't think bloody mary is all bad, at least the male is much more red than regular fire red.


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

I have seen people pfr be amazing, and would prefer Jimmy's old pfrs over my bm any day because they breed so untrue


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## agro (Nov 29, 2013)

sbarbee54 said:


> This :
> "This is normal with all new shrimp coming into the market, none breed true. Bloody Mary are supposed to be characterized as having short rostroms, yet a lot being exported to the us, and even bred and sold in the us have long rostroms. "
> 
> Is not true, this was a marketing tactic that one of the first creators of the stain said, that it had a short rostrom. They later balked at it when they were found sending out shrimp with out the short rostrom. a short rostrom would show as a defect in a shrimp more or less. The Distributor has now backed off this comment from everything I have read.
> ...


Having to disagree here, most mine have short rostrum and a different body figure, doing fine and breeding well, I'm seeing some bad colored ones but few young showing good redness like 1 week into birth.


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## James He (Sep 17, 2009)

I noticed that there are different grade of bloody mary on the market.

the seller told me that his bloody mary is about 80% breed true. he sells high grade bloody mary only.

High grade bloody mary has deep red color.

but regular bloody mary has brown patch on the body, or not that deep red.


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## agro (Nov 29, 2013)

James He said:


> I noticed that there are different grade of bloody mary on the market.
> 
> the seller told me that his bloody mary is about 80% breed true. he sells high grade bloody mary only.
> 
> ...



Brown patch? I have some darker bloody marys, which makes them look fantastic compared to the other reds, unsure if that's what you mean. I have heard of some people's BM turning darker and eventually looking more black/rusty than red. Didn't see pictures but they said maroon colored.


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

agro said:


> Having to disagree here, most mine have short rostrum and a different body figure, doing fine and breeding well, I'm seeing some bad colored ones but few young showing good redness like 1 week into birth.



Look it up c sky is the ones that started the whole marketing ploy with short Rostrom. You kind find it on facebook about breeders complaining about it and all over German forums and Japanese.

I bought high grade ones and I am on my first set off off spring old enough they gave birth and still maybe a high off 20% blood Mary and the rest suck. I paid 20$ a shrimp for mine.


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## agro (Nov 29, 2013)

sbarbee54 said:


> Look it up c sky is the ones that started the whole marketing ploy with short Rostrom. You kind find it on facebook about breeders complaining about it and all over German forums and Japanese.
> 
> I bought high grade ones and I am on my first set off off spring old enough they gave birth and still maybe a high off 20% blood Mary and the rest suck. I paid 20$ a shrimp for mine.


Got mines from a reputable seller here, 8/ea, but that was recently. Indeed short rostrum, I need to wait for my shrimplings to grow out more before I comment on their appearance.


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## lemonnoodle (Apr 1, 2013)

my fire reds look exactly like your bottom red one. I should start selling them as BM


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## agro (Nov 29, 2013)

Wait, that last picture, yellow/orange eggs visible through shell? It's suppose to be like that for bm? I usually can't see it like that, only notice if berried if they're sitting there fanning or notice a shrimp has gained weight.


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## praxis5624 (Apr 2, 2006)

My Bloodies are producing 40% and will work on increasing percentage over the next 12 months.


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## bandaiban (May 30, 2007)

praxis5624 said:


> My Bloodies are producing 40% and will work on increasing percentage over the next 12 months.


You got some pictures?


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## bandaiban (May 30, 2007)

Just a quick follow up on how these guys are doing. From my personal opinion, i think the bloody mary shrimps take a lot longer to color up. They're not all nice red until they're more mature, some of the babies you can tell are really red at a young age. So i did some major culling today and i still end up with a really good amount of bloody marys. I started with only 10 and now i have at least 50 that i would considered bloody mary grades. I also notice one of the males that i culled, ended up being extremely red after a molt. 
































































The Culls


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## Salvanost (Mar 30, 2014)

nice!!!
i'm about to rant black choco, to many transparent shrimplet...
but i will wait longer, hope they will change color nice too later


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## TankFreak420 (May 31, 2014)

Not to be a stick in the mud, but if you did a lot of reading on the bloody marry line you would know that they breed about 50% true in color intensity and then even less for the short rostrum (on there best days). I would wait at least another year before buying them myself. Your 4th photo in post #23 looks to be the only one close to a BM grade. They are supost to be darker than painted fire reds.


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## bandaiban (May 30, 2007)

TankFreak420 said:


> Not to be a stick in the mud, but if you did a lot of reading on the bloody marry line you would know that they breed about 50% true in color intensity and then even less for the short rostrum (on there best days). I would wait at least another year before buying them myself. Your 4th photo in post #23 looks to be the only one close to a BM grade. They are supost to be darker than painted fire reds.


Yea, I was late on the news of them not breeding true. I didn't read about it till a few people on here having the same problem. I am probably just gonna keep selective breeding them to get them redder.


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

I got rid of mine, as I hated having to cull so much on them. I wish jimmy still had his pfr or genius did and was still one here they had great ones


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## ch3fb0yrdee (Oct 2, 2008)

sbarbee54 said:


> I got rid of mine, as I hated having to cull so much on them. I wish jimmy still had his pfr or genius did and was still one here they had great ones



Bloody Mary Shrimps seemed really beautiful but I agree with Steve on this. Nothing quite does it in the Neo department for me except PFR. I wished I still have my colony. The deep opaque red is just unbeatable.


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

Yeah Bloody Mary is good to have if you really have plenty of other shrimps already and can spend alot of time to refine them. Their cull rate is so high it's not even worth it to invest in yet. Maybe in a couple years. Jim's line is super rare right now. Lucky I still have his bloodline


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## mattcham (Mar 7, 2014)

Guys google "variable expressivity". There are some genes that will be naturally variable. Similar examples are fancy ranchu goldfish. Even if you have a pair of champion breeders, 99% of the offspring will be inferior to both parents, even after a CENTURY of selective breeding. Many shrimp color mutations are like that, unfortunately.


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## gordonrichards (Jun 20, 2009)

Give them time to color in.
What are you feeding them?

I have red neo in a number of shades.
Pale cherry, standard cherry, sakura and fires.

1-2 months they should be more solid I think.


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## Tanman19az (May 14, 2011)

Bandaiban do you have a huge crayfish in your Bloody Mary tank? I saw a massive claw haha


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

:fish:


Tanman19az said:


> Bandaiban do you have a huge crayfish in your Bloody Mary tank? I saw a massive claw haha
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lol O dodnt notice that until u pointed it out!!! But i definitely see it now


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## AshNeon93 (Jan 11, 2014)

What's the difference from a RCS?


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## bandaiban (May 30, 2007)

Tanman19az said:


> Bandaiban do you have a huge crayfish in your Bloody Mary tank? I saw a massive claw haha
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lol. It's a huge ghost clarkii crayfish, its probably 7 inches long. Doesn't bother the shrimps at all though.

Bump:

Bump:

Bump: Another update on these guys. With super culling, i am actually getting really nice shrimps. I am hoping that, i have to cull less later on. They're breeding extremely fast compared to my other neo shrimps. 










































Bump: I just realize how thick the shell has gotten compared to pictures from the first page.


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## bandaiban (May 30, 2007)

gordonrichards said:


> Give them time to color in.
> What are you feeding them?
> 
> I have red neo in a number of shades.
> ...


I am not feeding them anything special, just algae waffles. I am really against using color enhancement food.


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## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

Lovin the colors on the shrimp! Goo to hear also that they are becoming more stable


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## gordonrichards (Jun 20, 2009)

great color!

-Gordon


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## shrimpzoo (Sep 27, 2011)

Would you consider them worth it now?


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## bandaiban (May 30, 2007)

shrimpzoo said:


> Would you consider them worth it now?


To be honest with you, it's still not worth it. I am still doing extreme culling. Notice no one sells baby bloody Mary's. They don't turn that red until a little older. I also notice some males are super red, but once they molt they turn clear. They do turn back to deep red later. So I think they still need a lot more culling to get where it needs to be. I have kept a lot of different colors of neo and I gotta admit, these needs some serious culling. I think if I just stop culling the color would turn back to regular cherries eventually.


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## wheatiesl337 (Mar 30, 2011)

I have generally been extremely pleased with the results from breeding these shrimp. That being said, I was looking for a project and expected some culling, and I have not raised high grade pfr to compare. Here are a few pictures from my tank to help people compare and form an opinion:





























Below, I would consider the adult on the left to be high grade and the adult on the right to be low grade. I occasionally net and move the lower grade adults and sub-adults to my cull tank.










Additional shots:


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## shrimpzoo (Sep 27, 2011)

Why white over black substrate?


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## wheatiesl337 (Mar 30, 2011)

shrimpzoo said:


> Why white over black substrate?


Because why not? The tank is actually split about half and half white and black substrate (eco complete). I put OEBT culls in this tank as well, and they get washed out in black substrate. Easier to cull the shrimp over white substrate too. Is it like some faux paus to use white substrate in shrimp tanks I didn't know about?


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

What white substrate is that

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## Tazalanche (Apr 8, 2013)

wheatiesl337 said:


> Is it like some faux paus to use white substrate in shrimp tanks I didn't know about?


 My 20L planted nano styled community tank has pool filter sand over black eco complete so that my cories are less likely to damage their barbels. It currently has 12 harlequin rasboras, 6 pygmy cories, 6 habrosus cories, 3 ottos, 3 clown plecs & about a dozen red cherry shrimp (sakura grade at best).

Now if I were setting up a shrimp only tank with a color that would "pop" on black, like the bloody marys, I'd defninitely go with just the black eco complete.


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