# Small black spots on leaves, does not look like bba, whats causing this? Photo heavy



## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

I have some java fern that's gown black spots on a few (not all) its leaves in the past few weeks. Its darker than BBA and only on some of the older leaves, its not growing outward/fuzzy like bba either. This fern has been in the tank for 2 months and sent out plenty of new leaves. I had a war with BBA and on 12/19/13 did a bleach dip to get it off my plants. I also use to have the heater for this tank right behind the fern (ehiem 75 watt) its now in a corner with no plants directly touching it. I also had my hubby raise the lights several inches higher with a custom stand (12/29/13) so they are now about 15-17 inches above the substrate (before was 11-12).
I looked at several of the image diagrams online that show deficiencies in leaves and what they mean, but none match up to this.
*I'm curious if the spots are a different algae, fall out from bleaching, damage from the heater, dieing off leaves from localized damage/breakage, or something else? *


Right after bleach clean (12/19/13) 10 days before lights raised.


Today


Two leaves with most spots after pruning for better look

The smaller one was broken at the narrow base of the leaf (near rhizome) and the larger is broken about half way up (is the bent over one with a hole in it in the middle picture).

I'll also note that all leaves displaying these spots do *not *have plantlets growing on them.


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## Arv (Oct 3, 2011)

mine in the low tech tank gets black spots in the leaves itself (not sure if those are ON the leaves like algae) when I get too lazy to change the water. so I'm thinking some deficiency. It looks like you also have some melting on the leaf on the bottom right


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## KribsDirect (Nov 15, 2013)

From what I have read about Java Ferns.. if the spots are only on the bottom side of the leaf, that is normal and a signal that the plant is readying itself to reproduce.

If its on the top or all over the leaves, I think it is more related to a nitrate deficiency. I have NO experience with these, I just remember reading about this on another thread not long ago.

Edit: check out this link, I found it while looking for the other one I remembered from before. 
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/6885-Black-spots-on-Anubias-and-Java-fern-leaves?
Evidently these plants really like Co2. 

I hope it helps.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Java ferns are not the best indicator plants for deficiencies. They naturally tend to break down and look raggedy with time.

The bleach dip may have damaged them, or the place where the BBA anchored to may have damaged them.

Are you seeing these signs on any other plants or just the java fern?


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

Arv said:


> mine in the low tech tank gets black spots in the leaves itself (not sure if those are ON the leaves like algae) when I get too lazy to change the water. so I'm thinking some deficiency. It looks like you also have some melting on the leaf on the bottom right


I had not done a water change for two week try to see if the co2 introduced by water changes was fluctuating the levels in the tank and causing one type of algae.. got a different type instead and this problem now =.=



KribsDirect said:


> From what I have read about Java Ferns.. if the spots are only on the bottom side of the leaf, that is normal and a signal that the plant is readying itself to reproduce.
> 
> If its on the top or all over the leaves, I think it is more related to a nitrate deficiency. I have NO experience with these, I just remember reading about this on another thread not long ago.
> 
> ...


Yes I've read about the black spots on the backs (not fronts as shown above) an my first java (not ones pictures) had those spots and popped out many babies which are either small javas in the tank with these, or in a no-tech tank in the windowsill waiting to get a little bigger. Since I dealt with BBA recently I can say these spots aren't like that, but I'm not knowledgeable of all algae types to know if its not some other forum.

I would not have thought they'd be so picky for CO2 but I guess if I have more nitrates and not a proper balance of co2 with it it'd make since. Thank you for the link.



Zapins said:


> Java ferns are not the best indicator plants for deficiencies. They naturally tend to break down and look raggedy with time.
> 
> The bleach dip may have damaged them, or the place where the BBA anchored to may have damaged them.
> 
> Are you seeing these signs on any other plants or just the java fern?


These are the longest lasting java ferns I've had (first batch were devoured by my pleco...) so no experience with them getting old and looking shabby. 
I know my Argentinian swords are mad because they need a new root tab (had to do a very vigorous siphoning and I think I sucked up 90+% of the dissolved tab nutrients when I did that whoops). 
And my smallest (oldest) anubias nana has 4 new leaves that are still very small (1/3 full size) and look like magnesium difference (lighter leave, darker vein), but I _think _that's because its new leaves and they come in lighter(?) correct me if I'm wrong. The two oldest (only) leaves before these 4 new ones were damaged from being moved around and recently cut them off. 
The two larger (more recently acquired) nans seem fine and don't have leaf discoloration. 
The java plantlets I have anchored and new leaves on this largest batch (pictured above) don't seem to have any visible issues.
I'm not sure if its from the bba, since its gotten visibly worse since the cleaning, but perhaps its a possibility.




I don't currently have Co2 going into the tank, but I just recived Sechem Excel and will start dosing it gradually. Hopefully it won't have any negative effects.
Just did a test on the 10 gallon these java are in:
ammonia: 0ppm
nitrite: 0ppm
nitrate: 20ppm

No extra nutrients in the tank just my dwarf gourami's fish waste and any flake food he doesn't manage to eat (usually gets it all). I'd assumed that, aside from the sword (which is just in there as an experiment), the nana and java fern (and mosses) wouldn't really need any added supplements and that's why they are considered "easy beginner plants". I'd hope to not have to buy the whole assortment of nutrient supplements to balance things out, I wanted this to be a low tech tank.


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## Greystoke (Jul 24, 2010)

They are diatoms, which are a form of algae, except that they live on silicates and phosphates.
Often found in new tanks. The bloom will eventually clear. Be patient.

You can use Seachem Phosguard to slow-down the extent, but it doesn't cure it.

Do not clean the plants inside the tank. The diatoms will simply spread around and multiply. Remove the plants and clean them in a weak chlorine solution


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Anubias leaves do tend to come in a little bit more pale than older leaves so that is not unusual.

If you want to post pictures of your other plants I'll have a look at them and let you know if there is anything obviously wrong.

Holes and discoloration in older leaves is a typical sign on potassium deficiency, but I am hesitant to call the problem that simply because java ferns tend to get nasty looking as they age. 7 month old leaves would be about right (overdue in fact) for replacing the older leaves.


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

Greystoke said:


> They are diatoms, which are a form of algae, except that they live on silicates and phosphates.
> Often found in new tanks. The bloom will eventually clear. Be patient.
> 
> You can use Seachem Phosguard to slow-down the extent, but it doesn't cure it.
> ...


I was under the impression that diatoms were the yellow-ish-orange semi-transparent slime you get on the glass/rocks that can be whipped off with a paper towel, not black spots on leaves? Am I wrong all together or are there multiple forms of diatoms?
If its a diatom then it will come back if I have silicate/silicate acid in my water supply (or -though i hope not- leeching from my aquarium rocks). So bleaching would become a constant need (such as ever few weeks) if the food source is always being re-introduced via water changes? I don't have the spare $ for a ro system or to buy per-bottled water that's treated to remove silicate.
I'd read into Phosguard a little when I had the glass nasty stuff, and it (and all other silicate removers) also remove phosphate, which plants do need to grow, so won't they end up damaging all the plants in the process? 
Please understnad I am not arguing, simply asking questions based on my impressions from previous reading with no real experince yet.





Zapins said:


> Anubias leaves do tend to come in a little bit more pale than older leaves so that is not unusual.
> 
> If you want to post pictures of your other plants I'll have a look at them and let you know if there is anything obviously wrong.
> 
> Holes and discoloration in older leaves is a typical sign on potassium deficiency, but I am hesitant to call the problem that simply because java ferns tend to get nasty looking as they age. 7 month old leaves would be about right (overdue in fact) for replacing the older leaves.


I don't know the full age of the java fern leaves (been with me 4 months i think), but the largest/oldest ones are the worst with spots, BUT though some of the new ones also have spots. It has shot out a lot of leaves since I first got it (came with about 6-8 leaves on 4 rhizomes).
Fortunately the aquarium light just turned on as I was checking this thread so let me get a few shots. Pardon any out of focus-ness or water stains.

java plantlets left, Argentinean swords right (side view)


java fern(front and back view)


(the java fern with a large whole in its side was from too-vigorous a scrubbing last bleach clean)

anubias nana with new leaves that don't want to come into focus (old ones were removed since damaged) (front view)
 
(note the tiny darker leaf on the upper right is actually a separate nan with only 1 leaf (and root) I'm trying to revitalize)
edit: the camera didn't catch it right with the tank but the veins are a bit darker than the photo shows, so here's an out of water shot for a better view


other anubias nanas (front and back view)



Full tank Shot


The largest moss-on-a-rock has hair algae but its too small for me to get it to focus on, been treating with 1 ml peroxide and water changes after treatment.

All rhizome based plants (nana/java) are tied to air line tubing/siphon hose with fishing line to keep the rhizome out of the substrate but still keep the plants anchored.

Taking these photos I'm noticing BBA starting to grow back on the higher parts of the Nana and java *shake fist at algae* grr go away!


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

The java fern is probably just damaged from the bleach or just deteriorating from old age but the anubias may be nitrogen deficient.

Do you have a nitrate test kit? Can you test for nitrates? 

It is unfortunate that you removed the old leaves from the anubias before taking a picture. I see that the anubias' new leaves are growing out smaller and smaller which is one of the signs of nitrogen deficiency. Old leaves can also start deteriorating, usually the tips of old leaves start to die and then the leaf consumes itself from tip to stem. 

Here is an explanation with quite a few pictures of nitrogen deficiency in rotala plants. The symptoms are similar in anubias.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...eficient-pictures-symptoms-rotala-plants.html


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

Zapins said:


> The java fern is probably just damaged from the bleach or just deteriorating from old age but the anubias may be nitrogen deficient.
> 
> Do you have a nitrate test kit? Can you test for nitrates?
> 
> ...


I'd posted test results yesterday in my post before the photo one


> Just did a test on the 10 gallon these java are in:
> ammonia: 0ppm
> nitrite: 0ppm
> nitrate: 20ppm


The 10 and 20 ppm looks the same with API test kit, and incidentally my tap water comes out at the same reading as I am getting in the tank. I'll also mention my gh and kh are extremely high 70 and 120 roughly though I don't know if they have any bearing on these issues.

The old nana leaves had these black spot for a long time (before i noticed bba in the tank or the java got any), they get a rip in their leaves from being moved about would not heal and still were black after the bleaching which was why I ultimately removed them. Heres an older photo (from 12/19/13) before they were cut, right after the bleaching

Only 3 of the 4 leaves were open at that time, the 4th is growing in the back, the old leaves were removed after it opened.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Can you run the nitrate test on distilled or reverse osmosis water to see if you still get 10-20 ppm readings? Sometimes the test kits aren't very accurate.

Oh, also with a GH of 6 it is unlikely to be Calcium or Magnesium deficiency so you are fine there. It just looks like nitrogen deficiency to me, but perhaps it is just the plant's position in the tank. You can always keep an eye on it and if the leaves keep staying tiny you can add some nitrogen fertilizer.

Plant leaves that become damaged or split do not heal. New leaves are healthy, but old leaves stay mangled.


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

Zapins said:


> Can you run the nitrate test on distilled or reverse osmosis water to see if you still get 10-20 ppm readings? Sometimes the test kits aren't very accurate.
> 
> Oh, also with a GH of 6 it is unlikely to be Calcium or Magnesium deficiency so you are fine there. It just looks like nitrogen deficiency to me, but perhaps it is just the plant's position in the tank. You can always keep an eye on it and if the leaves keep staying tiny you can add some nitrogen fertilizer.
> 
> Plant leaves that become damaged or split do not heal. New leaves are healthy, but old leaves stay mangled.


I only have tap water on hand. With the weather as it is now here I can't drive out to get a bottle of water for testing yet. However I do have a new api 'master' test kit (use api for readings shown above) I can test against and compare the old and new bottles.

If I do in fact have lower nitrates than the previous readings are showing I'd be ecstatic, I'd rather have that than high nitrates in my tap since my other tank has a poop-producing-pleco-monster, be happy to see I'm keeping levels low with that nightmare in there (love him, but dear god there's so much poop!). 

[strike]Will edit in a few minutes with test readings on tap with new nitrate bottle[/strike]...

Tested *tank water* with both test kits since its a new day and levels could be different from yesterday
old test kit nitrates on left, new test kit nitrate on right (water taken at same time for both)


Actually found some unopened *purified water* (brand: Nestlies Pure Lite)
old test kit nitrates on left, new test kit nitrate on right (water taken at same time for both)


So it can read "0" just fine but the 10-20 and 40-80 range between old and new show for tank water taken at the same time (yes I did each test properly).
I'd think 10-20 nitrates would be fine for slow growing plants (anarchis in there doesn't seem to be hogging every last drop of nitrate for itself).

As a random note: this is the first time I've gotten to see a "0 ppm" nitrates reading from my own testing.. of course its only because its purified water and not my tap.


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

I contacted plaintbrain(tom barr) and asked him about his quote on co2 that someone linked above. He essentially said my setup/plants do not lend to the need for co2, aka not a co2 deficiencies.
I've also been digging around google and can't find anything about black spot diatoms, just the yellow/orange blob/slim variety.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Hmm. Well that set of test results convinced me. There is nitrogen in the water which makes nitrogen deficiency not a problem. I suppose the anubias just look a bit odd. I've seen the smaller leaves happen when the plant converts from emersed growth to submersed growth and also if the rhizome is cut into small pieces.

The black spots do not look like algae to me. The surrounding area of the leaf is becoming chlorotic which doesn't happen when algae attaches. Probably just a result of the bleach or old age. 

It looks like there aren't any nutrient issues with your plants at the moment after all.


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

Zapins said:


> Hmm. Well that set of test results convinced me. There is nitrogen in the water which makes nitrogen deficiency not a problem. I suppose the anubias just look a bit odd. I've seen the smaller leaves happen when the plant converts from emersed growth to submersed growth and also if the rhizome is cut into small pieces.
> 
> The black spots do not look like algae to me. The surrounding area of the leaf is becoming chlorotic which doesn't happen when algae attaches. Probably just a result of the bleach or old age.
> 
> It looks like there aren't any nutrient issues with your plants at the moment after all.


Its been submerged over 1.5 year *but *its been broken apart by the pleco which is why this only had 2 old leaves (until last month when 4 near ones sprouted) and the other only 1 leaf. Both have very little rhizome, not even 1/2 inch and not a lot of roots. I'm hoping with time they'll recover but if not I'll just replace them when I order new plants in the spring/summer.

As a test I may try a more gentle bleach clean tomorrow on the black spot covered java just to see if it can come off. Last time I left them in a bit longer than suggested but it was a weak batch maybe 1/4 the bleach strength people recommend..). If not I may let them be them until more leaves grow then snip snip the bad ones.

Thank you for your ideas and feedback ^^ 



I'm still open for other suggestions (by you or other members) that I can look into and see if anything lines up.


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## Greystoke (Jul 24, 2010)

AquaAurora said:


> I was under the impression that diatoms were the yellow-ish-orange semi-transparent slime you get on the glass/rocks that can be whipped off with a paper towel, not black spots on leaves? Am I wrong all together or are there multiple forms of diatoms?
> If its a diatom then it will come back if I have silicate/silicate acid in my water supply (or -though i hope not- leeching from my aquarium rocks). So bleaching would become a constant need (such as ever few weeks) if the food source is always being re-introduced via water changes? I don't have the spare $ for a ro system or to buy per-bottled water that's treated to remove silicate.
> I'd read into Phosguard a little when I had the glass nasty stuff, and it (and all other silicate removers) also remove phosphate, which plants do need to grow, so won't they end up damaging all the plants in the process?
> Please understnad I am not arguing, simply asking questions based on my impressions from previous reading with no real experince yet.


They also come in black dots. I know I could be wrong - however- I'm suffering from the same condition, except - in my case - they prefer to congregate on the rocks. They also prefer the edges of plant leaves, like I've seen in your pictures.
Anyway, my friends tell me that its not the end of the world. It will eventually go away. Question is: WHEN?
Meanwhile, it certainly is a pest.


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## Chris_Produces (Feb 19, 2014)

AquaAurora said:


> I only have tap water on hand. With the weather as it is now here I can't drive out to get a bottle of water for testing yet. However I do have a new api 'master' test kit (use api for readings shown above) I can test against and compare the old and new bottles.
> 
> If I do in fact have lower nitrates than the previous readings are showing I'd be ecstatic, I'd rather have that than high nitrates in my tap since my other tank has a poop-producing-pleco-monster, be happy to see I'm keeping levels low with that nightmare in there (love him, but dear god there's so much poop!).
> 
> ...


My api nitrate test kit looks like the one on the left seems like all the time unless I use purified/distilled water. I wonder if it's possible that my nitrates aren't as bad I thought...


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## krish (Mar 21, 2014)

Hi guys , 

Exactly this was the case with my javafern and was worried about, my javafern looks exactly similar to yours.
I bought this plant 4 days ago and thought that I might have damaged the plant while carring it home in bag.

However, I googled and came to know that javafern is very hard plant and will survive in any tank conditions. Its been 4 days in my tank and Iam hoping my plant will get used to my tank.


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