# HYBRIDS: Show em if you got em!



## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Don't think you will find a ton of fans of hybrid fish. Many don't find it particularly responsible to hybridize species.


----------



## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

i like hybrids


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

over_stocked said:


> Don't think you will find a ton of fans of hybrid fish. Many don't find it particularly responsible to hybridize species.


And I will totally disagree with any of those folks. Genetics is fascinating and creating Hybrids of pure beauty sounds like people should jump all over this. I understand the desire to maintain pure species for preservation, but responsible breeding and hybridizing should not be looked down upon. After all, most of what we do is pure science...


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

F22 said:


> i like hybrids


AWESOME. Do you have any?


----------



## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

nah, workin on a gecko thing, but i gotta save a little cash


----------



## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

My problem is simple:

Do you keep every fish you breed? If you give them away/sell them to anyone, what do they do with the fish you give them? 

Eventually hybrids intentionally or unintentionally get labeled as a pure fish in the trade and mess up pure strains. I do not find it ethical to just put two fish together and see what comes out. 

So many strains are already contaminated that further doing so is dangerous. The trouble is simple--many hybrids look so much like a particular species they could get confused for the pure version, but do not breed true.


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

F22 said:


> nah, workin on a gecko thing, but i gotta save a little cash


What kind of geckos? I breed Leopard gecks.


----------



## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

rhacodactylus chahoua x rhacodactylus ciliatus


----------



## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

im also breeding rhacodactylus auriculatus


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

F22 said:


> rhacodactylus chahoua x rhacodactylus ciliatus


Hybrids


----------



## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

they look so cool though, from what i read they are sterile though...


----------



## AkCrimson (Dec 17, 2009)

It's hard to maintain control over hybridization. Like RM said, what do you do with all your fish? Usually, the fish wind up in the "main stream" and you have idiots breeding them left and right with no record keeping and no regards to the health and preservation of the species. Then it becomes nearly impossible to distinguish the original strains because of the lack of responsibility people have. 

It's a great idea, and without genetic experimentation we wouldn't have new colors/strains, but it's walking a fine line.


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

over_stocked said:


> My problem is simple:
> 
> Do you keep every fish you breed? If you give them away/sell them to anyone, what do they do with the fish you give them?
> 
> ...


I will answer you post, but will ask that you allow those of use who enjoy it to do so. Feel free to start your own thread on your feelings on why it shouldn't be done...

I do not sell to stores, I do sell to locals and they are always labeled as hybrids. I am the breeder and they become the buyers responsibility after purchase. All buyers are informed on what they are and that they can cross with others...

I dont think there is much evince supporting that hybrids intentionally or unintentionally get labeled as a pure fish in the trade and mess up pure strains. Im not saying it doesn't happen becasue it does, but its not a wide spread issue. I don't see very many "contaminated" strains on the market. 

Proper care and control will allow hybridizing without contamination. Not to mention most of these end up as feeders anyways

All I am saying is we would throw people who hybridize fish into some blanket of evil nd assume they are going to be the demise of the hobby. Their are many responsible scientists out there and I encourage responsible genetic research.


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

AkCrimson said:


> It's hard to maintain control over hybridization. Like RM said, what do you do with all your fish? Usually, the fish wind up in the "main stream" and you have idiots breeding them left and right with no record keeping and no regards to the health and preservation of the species. Then it becomes nearly impossible to distinguish the original strains because of the lack of responsibility people have.
> 
> It's a great idea, and without genetic experimentation we wouldn't have new colors/strains, but it's walking a fine line.


Its no harder to maintain control than breeding any other type of fish.

I have extensive research and keep all of my fish responsibly. Please, find another thread to harass and allow those who want to to enjoy. I choose to walk the fine line, if you don't, please don't post. A brief history of my fish experiments can be found on my blog.

Again, stop throwing us into some blanket group of mad scientists with no respect for the fish or this hobby.


----------



## AkCrimson (Dec 17, 2009)

Oh for heavens sake don't be so sensitive. Just stating my opinion, which was that one needs to be careful. I wasn't implying that you aren't careful. I never said I disagree with hybrids. Just saying that there ARE potential problems, even if they aren't big. I think you're getting way too defensive with me. I'm not throwing you in with any blanket group, where did you get that impression in MY post?? I'm not harassing you at all, geez. 

As far as I'm concerned, I'm not breaking any rules and I don't have to stop posting.


----------



## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

here we go again... Can we get this back on track and instead of flaming each other about what types of fish we choose to keep and breed look at some fish pictures?


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

I think we are all aware of the 'potential problems' when it comes to hybridizing fish. If I wanted to hear everyones opinions on that subject I would have asked. I wanted to see others pictures, nothing more. Its states that in the OP. In my opinion, your comments are slightly hostile and I do not appreciate them, nor did I ask for them. This is my Thread and ALL I want is top see others hybrids. I was hoping to share some of the excitement with the small few who do create hybrids.

All I am asking for is some respect.

Lets get back on track for those who choose to participate and share something relevant, like a picture, to this thread

THANKS!


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

F22 said:


> here we go again... Can we get this back on track and instead of flaming each other about what types of fish we choose to keep and breed look at some fish pictures?


Do you have any pics of your hybrid geckos? I'd be okay with a few pictures


----------



## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

the only thing i have are the ones that are a color morph... I can find a few pics... gimme a few moments.


----------



## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

hybrid of orange blotch gargoyle female and lined male.


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

Sweet...


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

My favorite Hybrid Endler breeder is Adrian from Swamp River Aquatics. He has some cool stuff:


----------



## rushr (Jan 11, 2010)

I have some hybrids but they aren't near as pretty as yours or Adrian's. I do sell to a local shop and I tell them they are hybrids whether they look it or not (the store sells them as guppies then). The original endler males and females I bought were from a mixed feeder guppy tank. So they probably weren't pure when I got them but they do have some black bars along their flanks. No pics at the moment though.


----------



## AkCrimson (Dec 17, 2009)

Respect is earned, not given. I'm not being hostile, but you're being a huge baby about other people wanting to voice their opinions. Let's act like adults. Just because you didn't ask for opinions does not necessarily mean they won't be given. 

Lighten up a little, yeesh.


----------



## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

wow, those tiger hybrids are beautiful


----------



## jcardona1 (Jun 27, 2008)

who cares what other people think. if you dont like them, dont keep them. some of those pics you posted are amazing!!


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

AkCrimson said:


> Respect is earned, not given. I'm not being hostile, but you're being a huge baby about other people wanting to voice their opinions. Let's act like adults. Just because you didn't ask for opinions does not necessarily mean they won't be given.
> 
> Lighten up a little, yeesh.


If you want to act like adults that is fine, but please stop pretending like you are being the only mature one here. You may be right that I am taking the tone of your comments wrong, but you need to be willing to accept that your comments may be much harsher then you think they are.

Crimson Hybrid. Only have one of these. Not much to him, but I hope to use his genetics to further develop other lines.


----------



## jmhart (Mar 14, 2008)

over_stocked said:


> Don't think you will find a ton of fans of hybrid fish. Many don't find it particularly responsible to hybridize species.


Especially fish that are endangered in the wild.


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

jcardona1 said:


> who cares what other people think. if you dont like them, dont keep them. some of those pics you posted are amazing!!


Thanks!

Here is another one that really impressed me. Someone in Malaysia created it.


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

jmhart said:


> Especially fish that are endangered in the wild.


Poecilia wingei isn't on the IUCN list of threatened species.


----------



## AkCrimson (Dec 17, 2009)

No, emotion and 'tone of voice' is difficult to portray in text. If you were sitting in front of me and heard what I said you would be quick to realize you took my tone completely wrong. 

That last fish is _gorgeous_, though.


----------



## jmhart (Mar 14, 2008)

EntoCraig said:


> Poecilia wingei isn't on the IUCN list of threatened species.


That's true, but there have been numerous studies that have concluded that they are indeed endangered. Some scientist have reported that they may already be extinct in the wild.

There has been insufficient evidence to prove they are endangered, but most likely that is caused by insufficient funds to study their native populations. John Endler has even suggested they are endangered (or extinct) in the wild, albeit with the responsible skepticism of a true scientist.


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

jmhart said:


> That's true, but there have been numerous studies that have concluded that they are indeed endangered. Some scientist have reported that they may already be extinct in the wild.


I am also a self proclaimed scientist. All the research I have found is inconclusive. The issue is the lake they are native in does have some polution. And its un-monitored. The assumption is that the lake may get more toxic if other decide to dump in it, causing the demise of the species. While that is a valid thought, it may or may not actually happen that way.

Adrian collected some in the wild in 2004 and I believe he went back in 2009 and also collected some. I'll see if I can hunt down some data on that trip.

Addition: he collected some in 2006 also.


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

OP - we will not and can not prevent others from voicing their opinions. We will not delete posts because you view them as criticism.

If this is a concern for you, please refrain from posting.


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

Wasserpest said:


> OP - we will not and can not prevent others from voicing their opinions. We will not delete posts because you view them as criticism.
> 
> If this is a concern for you, please refrain from posting.


I guess I am a little confused as to why some post are removed and others aren't?

One of mine was removed the other day with a similar tone and was based on another opinion. I am reporting the same issue and being told I'm SOL? 

If thats the way it is then that totally fine. I'll just deal. But are some of the Mods Biased on certain topics?


----------



## jcardona1 (Jun 27, 2008)

Wasserpest said:


> OP - we will not and can not prevent others from voicing their opinions. We will not delete posts because you view them as criticism.
> 
> If this is a concern for you, please refrain from posting.


well now thats a bunch of BS. its not about criticism, its about downright off topic derailing his thread. he didnt ask for people's opinions about hybrids. HE ASKED TO SEE PICS OF HYBRIDS. unless off topic derailments are tolerated here...


----------



## AkCrimson (Dec 17, 2009)

Well...okay you are all gonna think this is stupid and I know it's an EXTREME example but....you can't post a controversial thread and not expect people to voice their opinions.

For example, I can't very well expect to go on a dog forum and make a post about dog fighting pics and then get angry with people for voicing their opposition to dog fighting. Or posting on a motherhood forum about your abortion experiences. Yes, I know it's an extreme exaggeration but it's a valid point. Some people are very passionate about certain things, and in this case there are a quite a few people totally against hybridization, passionately so. People are going to state their opinions on something if it's controversial. 

As to why certain threads are deleted and others aren't....well that's not something I agree with but I don't know what is being referred to so I cant comment. But....it seems to me as if an issue was brought up with a mod in private, and now it's being discussed in the open??? Hardly seems fair to me.


----------



## leviathan0 (Oct 6, 2007)

I've kept a few hybrids in the past, mainly Guppy x Endler and Molly x Limia. I still have Tiger Endlers, which are Guppy x Endler. From them, I'm very slowly working on some new strains.

I do think some hybrids are beautiful (and some not so much..), but I do agree with with the people who say it's hard to properly maintain them in regards getting out to the "mainstream", being sold as pure, etc. And it's really not just the "mainstream" either, even the "insiders" seem to be contributing to it. Some people bought up Adrian, a well-known Endler expert - he often does not clearly mark whether something he sells is pure or hybrid, and I vaguely remember he pissed off a bunch of livebearer enthusiasts when the petenensis he sold were not labeled as hybrids, even though it was later found he had used multiple species to create them.


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

I wasn't aware this topic was this contoversial but I am now...



leviathan0 said:


> I've kept a few hybrids in the past, mainly Guppy x Endler and Molly x Limia. I still have Tiger Endlers, which are Guppy x Endler. From them, I'm very slowly working on some new strains.


Do you have any pictures to share?


----------



## jmhart (Mar 14, 2008)

AkCrimson said:


> Well...okay you are all gonna think this is stupid and I know it's an EXTREME example but....you can't post a controversial thread and not expect people to voice their opinions.
> 
> For example, I can't very well expect to go on a dog forum and make a post about dog fighting pics and then get angry with people for voicing their opposition to dog fighting. Or posting on a motherhood forum about your abortion experiences. Yes, I know it's an extreme exaggeration but it's a valid point. Some people are very passionate about certain things, and in this case there are a quite a few people totally against hybridization, passionately so. People are going to state their opinions on something if it's controversial.
> 
> As to why certain threads are deleted and others aren't....well that's not something I agree with but I don't know what is being referred to so I cant comment. But....it seems to me as if an issue was brought up with a mod in private, and now it's being discussed in the open??? Hardly seems fair to me.


+1

Yes, it's a bit of an exaggeration, but the point is dead on.

Many of us feel, and I can safely say it's the majority opinion, that hybridizing, especially fish which may be endangered, is irresponsible fish keeping and therefore will object passionately no matter what the context. 

My main problem is not selective breeding (I very much enjoy selective breeding) but rather cross-species hybridization.

OP: If you have pictures of endlers from selective breeding, I would enjoy seeing those.


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

Managed to really get some of the green coming out in these:



















I have another with a different tail pattern but no pics yet sorry.

I did manage to get an Albino one, but Im not sure if this was through selective breeding or just a phenomenon.


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

A friend of mine has line bed a few pur endlers with some awesome results:










You can see his stuff @ http://endlerspectrum.blogspot.com/


----------



## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

Well, they aren't fish... But they are hybrids, so I'll show them off!  THe pictures don't really do them justice, but it's the best I can do...

This is one of my hybrid rabbits, Caudill's Bonita









She's a broken black otter Jersey Wooly hybrid. 3/4 JW with 1/8 Netherland Dwarf and 1/8 Lionhead. She's the result of careful crossbreeding to improve size, type, and wool quality, bred by top Jersey Wooly breeder that I managed to sweet talk out of for $150. She's worth every penny.

Her daughter, my baby, Sky's Esmee









Esmee one of the best rabbits I've ever bred. She has five _legs_ (legs are wins that meet a high criteria), and if she possessed a four generation purebred pedigree, she could be registered and given a Grand Champion certificate, like her daddy. She's currently being a mommy to a single little broken chestnut buck I've fondly named Ren whose promising to turn out better then his dam. If he proves himself on the showtable over the next year, he can be granded. 

These rabbits were bred in the hands of responsible rabbit breeder for purposeful improvements on a still young breed, where said improvements within our own breed is very difficult, at best, to obtain. We breed to a Standard of Perfection, at which the rabbits are judged against. Very similar to showing dogs.


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

That rabbit looks way cool!


----------



## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

Sorry, I had to!


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

Captivate05 said:


> Sorry, I had to!


Seriously, I love it! Looks cool. Like the size (looks small and round) Is it full grown?


----------



## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

That picture was taken when she was five months old, so basically yes. She filled out more, but you can't really tell just from looking at her. Jersey Woolies are a dwarf breed, at max they can be 3.5lbs. Last I weighed her, Bonita was at 2.04 pounds. She's really tiny, even for her breed .

Jersey Woolies are a "compact" breed, so yeah. They are supposed to be little round half-balls covered in wool, with short ears and round "mug" heads.

This is one of my purebred bucks, Sky's Lamborghini (aka Royal Pain in the @^*&!) He can see, I promise, just the angle was to show off his head and his face trimmings. Color is broken blue otter.


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

That is way cool. Better not show my wife or she will want one


----------



## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

jcardona1 said:


> who cares what other people think. if you dont like them, dont keep them. some of those pics you posted are amazing!!


THis is my ENTIRE point. I DON'T want to keep them, but they get mixed into pure fish and I and others end up buying them anyways.

The OP's statement that after they sell them it is out of his hands is EXACTLY my point. By promoting hybrids, you have no idea what others will do with those fish and where they will end up. I use to run a CA cichlid breeding program and you wouldn't believe how many fish I got that would not breed true. 

What you do in your house is one thing, but when you release them into the public you are dangerously close to the ethical boarders. 

As a self proclaimed scientist you have a rather difficult time with discussion--one of the foundations of science and scholarly activity. 

When someone comes into a thread about my fertilizer and says it sucks, I don't freak out and trash them. As a matter of fact I don't ask that the post be deleted or anything. I will contact them, ask what their situation and problem was, etc. I welcome discussion of my products and any others--mostly because the record speaks for itself--but also because I am an honest man who thinks that treating people fairly is more important that always being right.

So when someone disagrees with you and YOU can't handle it, maybe you should step back, and not expect everyone around you to cave in.


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)




----------



## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

> Respect is earned, not given. I'm not being hostile, but you're being a huge baby about other people wanting to voice their opinions. Let's act like adults. Just because you didn't ask for opinions does not necessarily mean they won't be given.


I think he is saying this is his thread and he would like to stay on subject and leave the debate for another conversation. That seems reasonable to me. On the other hand he keeps responding to your comments instead of ignoring them and simply continueing the conversation with those that are interested.

_I admire the fact that you guys are restraining yourselves to the point that you are, because it could easily turn into a very heated discussion, and I hope people will not push it any further. I am interested in this subject without the moral debate_
_--------_

I think your hybrids are very cool looking and I would buy them and keep them. I would want to know that they were hybrids first. There are hundreds of plant hybrids, in nature as well as in the lab.


----------



## Centromochlus (May 19, 2008)

Captivate05, that is one freaking adorable bunneh!


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

Robert Paul Hudson, you sir, are correct. I fanned the flames of my own fire. Im ignoring the other comments at this point 

Speaking of Flame:

Snake Green Flame Tail


----------



## connordude27 (Jun 14, 2008)

dang some of these guppies X's are amazing

That last picture of the Snake Green Flame Tail remind me of the grim reaper... Its the tail lol

How much breeding does it require to get a guppy that will breed hybridized colors true?


----------



## farmhand (Jun 25, 2009)

Does anyone here own a dog that's not a hybrid?


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

connordude27 said:


> dang some of these guppies X's are amazing
> 
> That last picture of the Snake Green Flame Tail remind me of the grim reaper... Its the tail lol
> 
> How much breeding does it require to get a guppy that will breed hybridized colors true?


I find that its almost always in the males. The females tend to add minimal genetics. So if you mix one up and like the males, try breeding them with some wild guppy females or endlers (no color) Usually it will be pretty true, with some variation. 

Some of these cross breeds have a little molly in them as well I think.

I plan on more female breeding projects when I get about 5 more 10 gallon tanks.


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

farmhand said:


> Does anyone here own a dog that's not a hybrid?


Well I own a Pure bread Boston Terrier but according to that show on Animal Planet he comes from a long line of other species first.


----------



## connordude27 (Jun 14, 2008)

right now i need to get a hold of a cheap solid black (haha whatever) and cross it with a turquoise tailed male (maybe get something cool) or just cross with the females i have right now


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

connordude27 said:


> right now i need to get a hold of a cheap solid black (haha whatever) and cross it with a turquoise tailed male (maybe get something cool) or just cross with the females i have right now


Here is a cool Endler/Black Moscow hybrid:










At first it was more of an experiment... Toss this in with that and see what happens. But soon you will start to learn Dominant and receive traits and be able to narrow down your breeding traits.


----------



## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

farmhand said:


> Does anyone here own a dog that's not a hybrid?


Cross breeds are not hybrids. All dogs are Canis lupus familiaris


----------



## connordude27 (Jun 14, 2008)

wow i like that one

what are the main dominate traits in the endlers?


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

connordude27 said:


> wow i like that one
> 
> what are the main dominate traits in the endlers?


Main dominat traits are the black bar or spot on the side. I find that the orange/red bar, the green iridescent, and the tail spikes show up often in certain mixed strains.

Here is some of my Pure Endlers:









Also when mixing, many will result in strains that look like wild guppies, as all strains have these genetics buried deep down, but occasionally you will get one that stand out from the rest of the batch! That is the one you move on with and continue breeding him with other females from his batch.

I mixed this:









with the females of this:









Most resulted in this, which you would think is strange because both parents dont posses these colors or patterns visually (but genetically?)









But one resulted in this:









And his tail is starting to turn red like the crimson guppy. He will move on in the breeding project. the other males will not move forward, at least no in this strain.


----------



## connordude27 (Jun 14, 2008)

A cool guppy would be solid black with a V sideways on the tail in bright colors


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

connordude27 said:


> A cool guppy would be solid black with a V sideways on the tail in bright colors


Well get on it! Be the first, or one of the few


----------



## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

> Cross breeds are not hybrids. All dogs are Canis lupus familiaris


Actually, as I understand it, different species cannot breed or be "hybridized". The genetic code has to be identical. Only variants of the same specie can be hybridized. So one could argue that you are only changing variants of the same specie that would interbreed any way if they crossed paths in the wild. Its like bringing the wolf from north america to help re populate wolves in Europe. They are not the same, and yet they are...

Are all fancy guppies hybrids? Wild guppies have no color at all.


----------



## AkCrimson (Dec 17, 2009)

Actually two "species" can indeed breed. This is how you get a hybrid. Ligers are an example, there are also polar/brown bear hybrids, dolphin/pilot whale hybrids. These species have different chromosomes but they can indeed breed. It is, however, genetically dangerous which is WHY it's looked down upon by some. Also, Orioles can breed in the WILD and produce a completely fertile offspring...though both parents are a completely different species. Also, elephants can breed and they are not only a different species but a different genus as well. 

"Fancy guppies" are a result of line breeding and selective breeding, NOT hybridization.


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

Guppies and Endlers are both found in Laguna de Patos. Its possible wild hybrids exist.


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

AkCrimson said:


> Actually two "species" can indeed breed. This is how you get a hybrid. Ligers are an example, there are also polar/brown bear hybrids, dolphin/pilot whale hybrids. These species have different chromosomes but they can indeed breed. It is, however, genetically dangerous which is WHY it's looked down upon by some. Also, Orioles can breed in the WILD and produce a completely fertile offspring...though both parents are a completely different species. Also, elephants can breed and they are not only a different species but a different genus as well.
> 
> "Fancy guppies" are a result of line breeding and selective breeding, NOT hybridization.


I would like to point out that line breeding and inbreeding can be just as genetically dangerous as hybridization. It can be a good or bad thing. Its why some humans are stronger than others, its why some dogs have health problems in their breed, why some cats have 6 toes, and why some guppies get horribly curved spines...


----------



## AkCrimson (Dec 17, 2009)

Agreed. There are several species that occasionally breed with other species in the wild. There has been many instances of birds doing this. And in 2006 a wild hybrid bear (polar/brown) was killed by a hunter.

I totally agree with the above statement re. linebreeding and inbreeding. Lutino Cockatiels have a bald spot on their heads that is a result from bad breeding practices. Almost ALL lutinos have this now.


----------



## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

I saw that special on National geographic or animal planet about the polar bears and brown bears. They said the reason they have interbred is because the polar bear evolved from the grizzly and are genetically very close. They could not interbreed with a black bear or a sun bear. Thats why brown and black bears don't interbreed. There are those that say dolphins and pilot whales are of the same specie too.

i forgot about Ligars though...I don't know how they explain that one. They are sterile.

Now i am hijacking...sorry


----------



## AkCrimson (Dec 17, 2009)

Lots of animals can breed between species. 

http://www.hemmy.net/2006/06/19/top-10-hybrid-animals/


----------



## jmhart (Mar 14, 2008)

horses+donkeys=mules


----------



## blackandyellow (Jul 1, 2009)

I´m not a fan of the current cichlid hybrid fad (a.k.a flowerhorns) but in the case of guppies... how do you know from the beggining that your "Endlers Guppies" were a pure species anyway? 

Fancy guppies (and most livebearers like swordtails, platies and mollies) are not pure species anymore (unless you actually have certainty that your species are wild imports and they may even be already hybrids, or wild stock bred).

I think you are just developing more fancy guppies, and you actually have developed great looking fancy guppies  

Cichlid Hybrids... that´s another story... those I would definitely not support...


----------



## jmhart (Mar 14, 2008)

blackandyellow said:


> I´m not a fan of the current cichlid hybrid fad (a.k.a flowerhorns) but in the case of guppies... how do you know from the beggining that your "Endlers Guppies" were a pure species anyway?


The same way you know about cichlids. You either identify them properly(ie have them identified) or you acquire them from a trusted source, most likely wild caught.

Currently I do not have any endlers, but in the past, they all came from a fellow hobbyist that directly imported them MANY years ago.


----------



## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

flowerhorns are awesome, i must disagree.


----------



## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Those are some beautiful hybrids, EntoCraig!

I've noticed more guppies appearing at fish stores that obviously have a bit of Endler DNA in them. I for one am glad, because the appeal of guppies to me is the fantastic variety possible in a single species.


----------



## jmhart (Mar 14, 2008)

DarkCobra said:


> Those are some beautiful hybrids, EntoCraig!
> 
> I've noticed more guppies appearing at fish stores that obviously have a bit of Endler DNA in them. I for one am glad, because the appeal of guppies to me is the fantastic variety possible in a single species.



Yes, I understand:











BUT

I think the point you're missing there is that guppy x endler IS NOT a single species.


----------



## Sharkfood (May 2, 2010)

Mules are sterile though. 

I think the hybrids most are worried about are the extremely, extremely rare cases where a fertile offspring could be produced. Where I live in Pa, there are lakes where sterile hybrid fish are stocked by the game commission. I'd be more worried about irresponsible fishkeeping in so far as aquarists releasing foreign species into the wild. The waters in many parts of the North East are packed to the gills with white asian carp (also stocked by our government long ago as a possible food source) and Florida has populations of tilapia, snakehead, and oscars from Africa, Asia, and South America. I've heard many sportsmen and environmentalists complain about these fish, but tiger muskie and hybrid striped bass don't seem to be on anyone's hot issues list. Nobody is attacking the Amish for plowing their farms with mule power either.


----------



## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

jmhart said:


> I think the point you're missing there is that guppy x endler IS NOT a single species.


I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make, or why the hostility.

My comment was not on the ethics or difficulties of maintaining a separate pure strain of Endler. In fact, I had the opportunity to acquire some 100% pure Endlers, _for free_. But I passed because I would end up keeping them with guppies, and I knew there were other people who would appreciate the opportunity to get and keep pure stock.

And I simply don't care what species a fish is. The point you're missing is that my tanks are for my enjoyment, and are made better by hybridization. They are NOT wildlife preserves. So keep your horse's arse to yourself.


----------



## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

The term "hybrid" isn't solely out of species breeding. Almost every vegetable and fruit you eat today came from a "hybrid" plant that was selectively bred and genetically engineered for particular traits (drought resistance, insect resistance, sweeter flavor, higher yield ect.).

Obviously my rabbits are rabbits. They aren't part cat or anything. But I refer to the few crosses I have in my barn as "hybrids" because they were crossed for traits that was difficult to come across in the breed. They are used purposefully in that matter to improve the breed. Therefor, they aren't really "mutts", which would be the result of cavalier breeding for no distinct purpose to benefit the breed, but "hybrids".

And just to keep it straight and technical, you can't just take a horse plus a donkey equals a mule. It's a mare bred to a jack that gives birth to a male offspring makes a mule. A female would be a molly. A stallion bred to a jenny makes a hinny.

Mule:








Ass-like head and ears, narrow muscle build, long legs, horse like conformation. This one is cowhocked, which bugs me, but also an ass trait.

Hinny:








Horse like head, large horse shaped ears, large muscle build, short legs, ass-like conformation.

roud:

Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox now. Back to the original topic, which I believe was about fish...


----------



## jmhart (Mar 14, 2008)

DarkCobra said:


> I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make, or why the hostility.
> 
> My comment was not on the ethics or difficulties of maintaining a separate pure strain of Endler. In fact, I had the opportunity to acquire some 100% pure Endlers, _for free_. But I passed because I would end up keeping them with guppies, and I knew there were other people who would appreciate the opportunity to get and keep pure stock.
> 
> And I simply don't care what species a fish is. The point you're missing is that my tanks are for my enjoyment, and are made better by hybridization. They are NOT wildlife preserves. So keep your horse's arse to yourself.


I really didn't mean the hostility that you percieved. I was simply pointing out the irony that you said you enjoyed seeing the variety of a single species, but were citing the example of a hybridization. I'm surprised you didn't pick up on that.

You mention a wildlife preserve...well, considered that endlers may be endangered in the wild, each and every tank that has pure endlers IS a wildlife preserve.


----------



## Sharkfood (May 2, 2010)

I never knew that male/female combinations between donkeys and horses produced such different traits. Has nothing to do with fish so I won't ask any more questions, but that's very interesting.


----------



## Lycosa (Oct 16, 2006)

Beautiful hybrids Ento.. 

I think perhaps this debate about hybrids has it's place.. I just didn't think it should be in a thread that asks politely that it not occur here. I think the original intent was aimed at enthusiasts of hybrids to comment, not to openly debate whether it was an acceptable practice based on personal opinion.

Having said that, I really think your selective breeding has led to some excellent looking fish. I especially love those twin-spot Endlers.


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

Im just surprised no one else has maybe one picture of a hybrid they might have swimming around...


----------



## stingraysrule (Apr 4, 2010)

I bought some small feeder fish from a petstore. I asked for a dozen, and the store gave me two dozen. My Tigers ate about 10 of them and then ignored the rest. After about 2 weeks, when the fish got bigger I noticed that they had colors and were not feeder fish at all, but hybrids, I would say...... between and endler and a guppy. I still have them and am waiting for them to develop more colors to see what they actually are. 
I'll post pics soon.


----------



## leviathan0 (Oct 6, 2007)

You sure they aren't just Guppies? Most will look a plain gray at the store, but when they're given better living conditions, they often put out the same style of coloring/patterning as wild Guppies.


----------



## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

jmhart said:


> I really didn't mean the hostility that you percieved. I was simply pointing out the irony that you said you enjoyed seeing the variety of a single species, but were citing the example of a hybridization. I'm surprised you didn't pick up on that.


My apologies then for the misunderstanding. The picture at least seemed rather angry..

I did understand the hybridization comment; but I don't understand its significance in context as a reply to what I said. For those who define scientific taxonomy, and those who preserve Endlers in exactly the same state as they were found, the distinction is important. But otherwise, a hybrid seems like it's still just a guppy. 

What we broadly classify as a "guppy" is most likely already the result of crossbreeding from ancestors that today, we might consider distinct species. And guppies and Endlers are so similar, I would think their genomes are almost identical; other than a handful of mutations which accumulated in the Endler's isolated natural environment. So if repeated crossbreeding yields a fish that's 75% guppy genome and 25% Endler genome, and which contains >99% of genes you'd expect in a common guppy, isn't it still considered _Poecilia Reticulata_?



jmhart said:


> You mention a wildlife preserve...well, considered that endlers may be endangered in the wild, each and every tank that has pure endlers IS a wildlife preserve.


Endlers have a powerful survival trait - they are beautiful! I don't think we have to worry about them persisting in their original form, even if their limited natural habitat is destroyed (as sadly, is happening); since there are those devoted to preserving that unique beauty in tanks become wildlife preserves.

I appreciate the efforts of those people who do. I would probably be one of them if I had the room for species-specific tanks; and not strictly to preserve the pure species, but also because I like them. 

But I don't understand why there seems to be such a strong negative reaction to people who intentionally hybridize. Not unless they're releasing hybrids into the original Endler environment thus tainting the original stock, or falsely representing and selling hybrids as pure-blood Endlers; neither of which I think anyone here would do.


----------



## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

stingraysrule said:


> I bought some small feeder fish from a petstore...After about 2 weeks, when the fish got bigger I noticed that they had colors and were not feeder fish at all, but hybrids, I would say...... between and endler and a guppy.


I found the same in a local pet store, already displaying full coloration, and in my excitement I bought a few males. For me, they never got as big as Endler males should. They bred vigorously with my guppy females, but most of the offspring were similarly small, and none were nicely colored.


----------



## tanknewbie (Apr 27, 2010)

great hybrids ento! My endler hybrids are not nearly as pretty, but I will post some pics after lights on.

In regards to the debate about hybrids, I do not have emotional attachments to either side of the debate. However, I did notice that somebody implied, that since endlers are endangered, it is irrisponsible to be creating hybrids. Based on that arguement, I have to disagree. Hybrid endlers are bred for hobbyists. It is sad that wild endlers are dissapearing, but by keeping only pure endlers personally, are we going to change anything? Are you and I going to be releasing these pure endlers back into the wild? I believe that releasing animals into the wild IS irrisponsible unless it is done through the "proper" methods. What does it matter if the pure endler only exists in our tanks? If it is missing from its particular eco-system, the earth has already lost it. I believe that the really legitimate concern about hybrids is hybrids being mislabled as the original. That is totally understandable, and I don't believe it would be that difficult to lable them as hybrids. They are still beautiful, and people would still buy them. I'm sorry, but that is the way I feel. Apologies to ento for adding to this arguement and apologies for grammer and spelling mistakes (late at night)


----------



## SearunSimpson (Jun 5, 2007)

IBTL! Ha!

I myself have never been into hybrids, or really supported it myself, but some of those colour morphs are really cool!


----------



## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

> I think the point you're missing there is that guppy x endler IS NOT a single species.


I think the point you are missing is, HE DOESNT CARE, and neither do many other people. I think it is a legitimate point that many if not most fancy guppies may be in fact already be a cross breed, and the fact that these hybrids look like guppies anyway...

Many people consider fish as purely ornamental. Collectors of goldfish and Koi for the most part are not interested in the fish for scientific study, or the history of the fishes natural habitat or keeping the fish to its natural pure specie standards. Their value is solely ornamental. The Flowerhorn is another example. It has ornamental value to those who collect them, nothing more. Freshwater shrimp and all their color morphs is another example. They are not natural variations in most cases, and there is inter breeding going on. These Crystal shrimp that sell for hundreds of dollars and the fools who pay that are doing it for their ornamental value 
-----------------
I want to hear more about the process of how you breed these two closely related species together. How would I do it? Whats the first thing you do? Whats a quick step by step process?


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

leviathan0 said:


> You sure they aren't just Guppies? Most will look a plain gray at the store, but when they're given better living conditions, they often put out the same style of coloring/patterning as wild Guppies.


I read somewhere that many stores were using endlers as feeders becasue they are smaller than guppies. Im sure stores have mixed their feeder guppies and Endlers creating hybrids. Some of those key traits like the black bar and the sword tails are unmistakable! I have seen many "feeder" guppies with Orange Swords and black bars. Im positive down the line they were mixed with endler.

Cant wait to see your pictures!

Example of possible Hybrid Feeders:


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

SearunSimpson said:


> IBTL! Ha!
> 
> I myself have never been into hybrids, or really supported it myself, but some of those colour morphs are really cool!


THANKS! I am okay with those that have a different opinion on hybridizations, but I'm glad you can appreciate what I am trying to do and create. It is a lot of fun crossing and then line breeding. The results are often stunning.


----------



## tanknewbie (Apr 27, 2010)

hey ento, love those last pics of your endlers. Very similiar to my male endlers. Love the neon spotting. My endler females just burst with fry and I'm not sure what they will look like. How much do the genetics of the female effect the fry?


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

tanknewbie said:


> hey ento, love those last pics of your endlers. Very similiar to my male endlers. Love the neon spotting. My endler females just burst with fry and I'm not sure what they will look like. How much do the genetics of the female effect the fry?


In me experience, the female genetics play the smallest role, sense despite dominant traits, they rarely show through in the females.

BUT I have breed traits into female endlers using guppies.

If you are trying to keep them pure, you will have to focus on the male traits, while saving the females that come from particular males ofspring for breeding. It can be a little tricky


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

Lycosa said:


> Beautiful hybrids Ento..
> 
> I think perhaps this debate about hybrids has it's place.. I just didn't think it should be in a thread that asks politely that it not occur here. I think the original intent was aimed at enthusiasts of hybrids to comment, not to openly debate whether it was an acceptable practice based on personal opinion.
> 
> Having said that, I really think your selective breeding has led to some excellent looking fish. I especially love those twin-spot Endlers.


Thank you! Its been a fun project, and I really hope that more minds have been opened to the possibility of *responsible *mixing. After all, many well sought after fish like some apistos, cichlids, cat fish, and rays are hybrids.


----------



## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

what apisto is that?!


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

F22 said:


> what apisto is that?!


Ita a hybrid that is commonly called a blue steel Apisto, its actual orgigins are unkown. There has been a lot of speculation about this. It seems to generally accepted that they are at least partially Apistogramma resticulosa. Which, it is speculated, have been crossed with either Apistogramma borellii or A. caetei. It has been reported that the East Europeans who first succeeded in spawning this species were crossing "Steel Blue" males with A. caetei females. This apparently resulted in viable spawns and I would suspect that they then back crossed resulting females to other "Steel Blues" males.

They are AMAZING looking but quite hostile, unlike other Apistos which tend to be more peaceful.


----------



## outofstock (May 8, 2009)

If anyone remembers my thread from awhile ago. Pretty sure he was a hybrid, talked to a guy I used to work with who imported African cichlids for years and he believed it to be a Zebra Cobalt mix. Evil Evil little fish, came with the fish tank.


----------



## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

Hybridizing is just the lazy version of selective breeding. IMO you should do it right or not do it at all. All those guppy/endler hybrids could have been selectivly bred withough crossing. Although in the case of guppys it is a moot point, as fancy guppys are hardly a pure species. 


The real issue I see with your logic is that that you say "I'm responsible", but do you really think that making a thread like this is only going to inspire responsible "experiments", also the only way to be responsible is to keep or cull every single fish. The once it is out of my hands its not my fault approach is terrible. Let me just make a nuke, sell it to a terrorist, what they do with it is not my fault. Great.


----------



## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

EntoCraig said:


> I am also a self proclaimed scientist. All the research I have found is inconclusive. The issue is the lake they are native in does have some polution. And its un-monitored. The assumption is that the lake may get more toxic if other decide to dump in it, causing the demise of the species. While that is a valid thought, it may or may not actually happen that way.
> 
> Adrian collected some in the wild in 2004 and I believe he went back in 2009 and also collected some. I'll see if I can hunt down some data on that trip.
> 
> Addition: he collected some in 2006 also.


that's the problem, it's unmonitored. you say the research is inconclusive, but what if they are endangered or even extinct? the galaxy rasbora (celestial pearl danio) is very much endangered in the wild and it's only been a short time since it was put on the pet fish trade.

and also, just because you are a "self-proclaimed" scientist, doesn't mean you are one.

those hybrids are beautiful, but all the people criticizing hybridization are right, i have seen hybrid endlers (not particularly nice ones) being sold at Aqua Forest Aquarium in SF as pure endlers. If you are right, and the research is false and the endlers are of least concern in the wild, then it's not that much of a problem, but since no one can be sure, it's best not to take the risk.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

fishman9809 said:


> the galaxy rasbora (celestial pearl danio) is very much endangered in the wild and it's only been a short time since it was put on the pet fish trade.


That turned out to be false, and many theorize that someone started that rumor just to drive up the retail price of CPDs.

IMO ya'll should start another thread entirely if you want to debate the ethics of hybridization rather than hijacking this one.


----------



## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> That turned out to be false, and many theorize that someone started that rumor just to drive up the retail price of CPDs.
> 
> IMO ya'll should start another thread entirely if you want to debate the ethics of hybridization rather than hijacking this one.


i never heard that, do you have a link i can look at?


----------



## the planter (Jul 8, 2010)

agreed ^^ this thread has gotten very off topic


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

> just because you are a "self-proclaimed" scientist, doesn't mean you are one.


That was my point. There are lots of folks on here talking like they are, but they aren't. 

Honestly, I don't care how many people appose it, I am still going to do it, and yes I will be sharing hybrids with fellow hobbyists. If anyone doesn't like it, go on the internet and complain about it. Oh wait....

I like what I do and I feel I do it responsibly, don;t really care if others disagree roud:


----------



## fibertech (Apr 29, 2009)

Very nice looking fish


----------



## codfish1 (Jun 13, 2010)

i just wanna say them are some really neat looking fish...


----------



## jmowbray (Dec 20, 2009)

I just wanted to give my 2 cents on GMed/altered animals. 

Over the past four years my brother and I have been in the bee keeping business and have been recognized in our community as the "bee boys." I understand where people are coming from when the breed animals to keep a true breeding stock, but with my situation I wish this wasn't the case. 

Over the last couple of years our number of hives have been greatly reduced do to viruses and bacteria that "feed" on the honeybee. There is no genetic variation in the honeybee population and honeybees are very social insects. Therefore, if a single bee contracts and virus the bee must be eradicated or it WILL kill the entire hive along with other surrounding hives. 

I wish there was some sort of variation to help combat the problem of the honeybee extinction, but there's not. Honeybees are raised and inbred with each other to maintain their demeanor. There are different "breads" of honeybees such as the African Kill honeybees, but within that bread there is no GM either. If you would like to know more about honeybees and the problems this world is going to face with their extinction feel free to PM with questions. I'm very experienced with this and have wrote numerous college papers and articles about this and other problems that they are facing. Or if you have a general honeybee question go to: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/other-websites/99274-mowbray-honey-farm.html.


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

jmowbray said:


> I just wanted to give my 2 cents on GMed/altered animals.
> 
> Over the past four years my brother and I have been in the bee keeping business and have been recognized in our community as the "bee boys." I understand where people are coming from when the breed animals to keep a true breeding stock, but with my situation I wish this wasn't the case.
> 
> ...



I studied this issue a while back (done some Entomology in school, hence the name ) I also member they were having some trouble with mites that would infest the tracheal system of the bee... There are a lot of interesting issues arising with bees and bee population. I also wish they could come up with a morph or hybrid that is more resilient to disease and parasites.


----------



## jmowbray (Dec 20, 2009)

You are correct the infamous tracheal mite. 

I suggested a couple of possible graduate studies for my brother when he gets to college. One was to clone a queen from a hive and see if you could alter genes to adjust her behavior towards other queens. If you could do this you could potentially have multiple queens per hive and raise super hives. Currently the queen in the hive will kill other queens so that she is the sole producer. 

The second was that in the winter up north a significant amount of bees die do to the spring weather of warm/hot one day (as it was this year, it reached 80F in March) and down to freezing at night. When this happens the bees have no time to cluster back into a ball to stay warm, consequently freezing and dying. The possible solution could be to extract the gene in fish that allows them to produce antifreeze proteins which enable them to survive in freezing temperatures. Then implant it into a bee's genome and hopefully have cold hardy offspring that can withstand near freezing temperatures. 

What do you think about those?


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

jmowbray said:


> You are correct the infamous tracheal mite.
> 
> I suggested a couple of possible graduate studies for my brother when he gets to college. One was to clone a queen from a hive and see if you could alter genes to adjust her behavior towards other queens. If you could do this you could potentially have multiple queens per hive and raise super hives. Currently the queen in the hive will kill other queens so that she is the sole producer.
> 
> ...


Sounds plausible to me. I have seen much research done with animals and plants, but I feel the insect world gets glanced over and I think there are TONS of discoveries and breakthroughs to be made. Someone needs to jump on the bio luminescence in Fireflies...

I think I read that 1-3 consumable products are directly affected by Bee Pollination. 

Hybrids should be looked into. I know there are several bee sp. in Asia and South America. Im surprised other crosses have not been attempted (besides the African Hybrids) 

I love creating hybrids, mostly for color and patterns, but its possible other genetic Pros will show through. Currently the only other trait I have seen in my hybrid Endlers is increase aggression. The males seem to have a much larger desire to breed as well.


----------



## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

jmowbray said:


> I just wanted to give my 2 cents on GMed/altered animals.
> 
> Over the past four years my brother and I have been in the bee keeping business and have been recognized in our community as the "bee boys." I understand where people are coming from when the breed animals to keep a true breeding stock, but with my situation I wish this wasn't the case.
> 
> ...


I agree with you as far as bees go, but it is important to see the difference in maintain a keystone species vs tinkering to get cool aquarium fish


----------



## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

EntoCraig said:


> Thank you! Its been a fun project, and I really hope that more minds have been opened to the possibility of *responsible *mixing. After all, many well sought after fish like some apistos, cichlids, cat fish, and rays are hybrids.


which sought after apistos are hybrids? The steel blue you posted above is actually shunned my most... Catfish hybrids? Outside of a few very specific cichlids, most cichlid keepers shun hybrids completely. 

The trouble here is you advocate responsible hybridizing while practicing irresponsible hybridizing. It just doesn't make sense. 

If you wanted to be responsible you wouldn't release them into the public.


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

over_stocked said:


> which sought after apistos are hybrids? The steel blue you posted above is actually shunned my most... Catfish hybrids? Outside of a few very specific cichlids, most cichlid keepers shun hybrids completely.
> 
> The trouble here is you advocate responsible hybridizing while practicing irresponsible hybridizing. It just doesn't make sense.
> 
> If you wanted to be responsible you wouldn't release them into the public.


Everyone will have their opinions...

If you don't like it, go on the Internet and complain about it 

Why should I withhold a desired hybrid just becasue you claim that it is irresponsible? The buyers are ALWAYS informed on what they are getting. The fish then becomes the buyers responsibility, Not mine. Its not like I hand them out to every random person that wants a fish. In fact, I have only sold to local planted tank keepers who want them as show pieces for smaller tanks. Most don't even buy females from me...

You are far too quick to judge.

As for Hybrids I know a local that is breeding Asian red tail and shovel nose red hybrids. Cool looking cats with amazing personalities! They are like fish tank puppies... I don't know a single person locally that Shuns those blue Apistos, seems everyone is trying to get their hands on some around here. Also we have TONS cichlid breeders here in Utah. Many of them have hybrids, they don't shun it, they just keep it to themselves and friends.

The problem is you think that there is a large amount of people that are discussed by hybrids. But the truth is, there are just as many that don't have a problem with it at all.

Cheers.

Hybrid Cat:









Hybrid Cichlids



























Hybrid Rays:


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

fishsandwitch said:


> I agree with you as far as bees go, but it is important to see the difference in maintain a keystone species vs tinkering to get cool aquarium fish


Some of us are in it for the looks. Cool Aquarium fish is what I am after


----------



## secuono (Nov 19, 2009)

I think hybrids are good, it mixes genes and helps water out diseases. Just like with the Dalmatian, they had to start to re-create the dog since it is such a degraded and sick breed now. Not that dogs are hybrids, but it's similar, mixes will happen in nature, that's how we get new critters. If a person sells a hybrid and then the new owner neglects to tell others that, it's the new owner who should be prosecuted. 
I like hybrids, only had different colors, fins and dwarf/standards mix, very cool mixes, nice and robust.


----------



## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

I rarely manage to get good pictures of my fish. Here's an older one:










The Endler influence is just showing through. Some of the newer ones are becoming quite spectacular. I'll see if I can get current pics.

Here's another hybrid, often found on or in my aquariums:










Bengal cat, on top of my 3g quarantine/breeder. Crossbreed of a domestic with an Asian Leopard. She loves to drink from the aquariums, and sometimes she sticks her paw in and holds it still while the fish nibble at it. She's never made an aggressive move to my knowledge, despite being quite a hunter when it comes to her toys and my toes. Funny, no one complains about these hybrids being released to the public.


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

DarkCobra said:


> I rarely manage to get good pictures of my fish. Here's an older one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cool fish! and Even Cooler Cat!!! Awesome looking! My wife used to work at an animal shelter, She had a bengal come in once. Really cool looking!


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

fishman9809 said:


> i never heard that, do you have a link i can look at?


IMO Fishbase is one of the most reliable sources- it's classified as a "Highly resilant" species due to its profilic reproduction, and one with "low vulnerability" http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.php?ID=63298

Either TFH or AFI just published an article in the last month or so that said the same.


----------



## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

dude, that catfish is awesome. synodontis?


----------



## herns (May 6, 2008)

> I have been intentionally and carefully mixing Guppy and Endler strains for about a year now. I am a huge fan of Hybrid fish and inverts! Show them off if you have hybrids in your tank!
> 
> If you don't like Hybrids thats fine, there are other threads on this site to enjoy instead.
> 
> ...













Do you sell female of this hybrid?


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

I rarely if ever sell them to others, its more of a personal project/experiment.

I do trade with others who experiment with hybrids.

The females hybrids look exactly like female guppies.


----------



## Sharkfood (May 2, 2010)

> The steel blue you posted above is actually shunned my most


Here's mine.


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

Those Blues are awesome! I plan to breed a pair shortly.


----------



## fish-n-pups (Feb 20, 2010)

EntoCraig said:


> I like what I do and I feel I do it responsibly, don;t really care if others disagree roud:



Hey Craig is this one o yours? I want him! When you get all moved and set up I may have to come see what you've come up with!


----------



## mgamer20o0 (Mar 8, 2007)

EntoCraig said:


> I did manage to get an Albino one, but Im not sure if this was through selective breeding or just a phenomenon.


i do believe these are hybrids too. i have some my self. my extra fry of these normally go to mr poly. i have a friend breeding a blue endler he crossed.


----------



## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

Interesting... I will have to keep a closer eye on mine to see the level of hybridization. I have had 2 albino males and several females over the past year.

I am going to start focusing on snake patterns and blue finage.


----------



## waya81 (Aug 13, 2010)

Your cobra tails are gorgeous! I have tiger endlers that I bought from aquabid, and I love them.

I am interested in what you said about females giving minimal genetics. 

(History: I inherited a large bunch of endlers from a tank in my sons pre-k class a couple years ago. I'm pretty sure they started out as feeder fish or something close. I have no idea how long the tank was established or how the fish were cared for before I got it, but there were lots of poor colors and inbreeding I'm sure. A few months ago I had an outbreak of columnaris which took the entire population except for 8 females that were born in the middle of it.)

If I were to put a "pure" breed in with them, say black bars, would they most likely breed true to black bars? Or would they be hybridized?


----------



## waya81 (Aug 13, 2010)

Whoops! double posted


----------



## Brownthumb07 (Dec 8, 2009)

Let me just say that the Electric Blue Jack Dempsey is not a hybrid its a color morph. Bred from two jack dempseys that carried the recessive blue gene. DNA studies have been done to confirm that theory.


----------



## the_deeb (Mar 19, 2009)

I just wanted to raise a point to consider.

Scientifically defining a "species" is not always a simple matter. Most fish species are defined taxonomically based on their appearance. While this usually works pretty well, there are certainly instances where organisms that look very similar may be very different genetically, and organisms that look quite different may be quite similar genetically. People often like to say things like "DNA proves..." but things aren't always that straight forward. While genetic disparity between two organisms is one of the standard metrics of defining species, genetic variations always occur on a spectrum, and deciding where to draw the cutoff that separates different morphs vs different species is not always clear. 

One of the standard definitions of a species is organisms that can interbreed to produce *viable* offspring. By this definition, horses and donkeys are clearly different species because mules are sterile. But if two "species" readily interbreed to produce fertile offspring (eg. guppies and endlers), perhaps their definition as separate species wasn't accurate to begin with. 

Just a thought. That being said, even if two organisms aren't necessarily different species but are undergoing speciation, there is certainly something to be said for not subverting the process by crossing them.

Anyways, back on topic. EntoCraig - those are some great looking hybrids!


----------



## the_deeb (Mar 19, 2009)

jmowbray said:


> You are correct the infamous tracheal mite.
> 
> I suggested a couple of possible graduate studies for my brother when he gets to college. One was to clone a queen from a hive and see if you could alter genes to adjust her behavior towards other queens. If you could do this you could potentially have multiple queens per hive and raise super hives. Currently the queen in the hive will kill other queens so that she is the sole producer.
> 
> ...


Some thoughts on these points:

Regarding your first idea, I think there is a simpler solution. I believe that a single queen bee is capable of mating with multiple drones. Rather than genetically engineering multiple queens to cohabitate, an easier way to introduce diversity into a hive would just be to ensure that the queen mates with multiple males. There was actually a study a few years ago that directly tested this (Matilla and Seely, 2007, Science 317: 362-364 ) and showed that artificially inseminating a queen with sperm from multiple males allowed her colony to outcompete a colony with a queen that only received sperm from one male.

The broader problem you raised was that the bee population overall has limited genetic diversity. If this is the case, neither multiple males nor multiple cohabitating females will fix the problem because genetically uniform parents won't be able to produce genetically diverse offspring. You mention that there are different "strains" of bees. Doesn't this constitute genetic diversity?

Your second suggestion is pretty interesting and seems like it could potentially work, assuming there is a good virus that can be used to introduce the recombinant DNA into bee embryos.

Sorry for the continued derail - I know this isn't supposed to be a thread about genetics but I think it's an interesting subject.


----------



## Eden Marel (Jan 28, 2010)

Well apparently I have guppy x endler hybrids that came out of nowhere! I'm absolutely sure I had guppies, but they must have mated with an Endler before I adopted them!


----------

