# New to Planted tanks



## ReefkprZ (Aug 21, 2010)

Clint said:


> right now it's full of black gravel, but i want to put some plant friendly stuff in there, then maybe cover it with some black estes sand.
> 
> .


capping larger gravel with sand wont work out in the long run, the smaller grains will work their way down through the gravel returning you to a top layer of gravel.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I run a dual bulb Coralife T5NO over my own low tech 29gal and am very happy with it. Link to my tank is in my signature, and this is the fixture: http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsU...5/cl0/coralifefwt5aqualightdoublestriplight30

Welcome to TPT!


----------



## Clint (Oct 7, 2010)

Thanks for the welcome. 



ReefkprZ said:


> capping larger gravel with sand wont work out in the long run, the smaller grains will work their way down through the gravel returning you to a top layer of gravel.


Ah, i wasn't sure of the grain size of the substrate geared for planted tanks. Thought i could find a finer material. Know of any brands that are similar to a large grain sand? or are they all more gravel like?


Thanks for the link to the T5 light.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

3 mm is what I've read as the "ideal" substrate size for planted tanks.

Then there's the issue of nutrient content and CEC (CEC is basically a substrate's ability to absorb nutrients from the water column and store them in a form that can be accessed by roots). 

Gravel and sand have no nutrient benefit for plants but can still be used as long as a hobbyist is sure to provide nutrients for the plants in the form of fertilizers.

I personally prefer substrates with some nutrient content and high CECs because they minimize the work on my part needed in terms of providing extra nutrients.

Flourite black and Flourite black sand are some of my personal favorites for the above reasons.


----------



## Clint (Oct 7, 2010)

Well i did my tour of local fish stores today, none seem to have the black flourite. 

petsmart has some stuff that feels like a large bag of carbon, and about sounds the same when you grab the bag. I can't recall the name or find it on their web site.

I was wondering, i found some 6500k compact fluorescent bulbs for my lil 10 gallon test tank to replace the incandescent ones it currently had (boy it's bright now). Would I be able to make my own hood using the larger versions of these? Or just used those silver reflector domes you see on some clamp on shop lights with the 6500k screw-in fluorescents. 

(these: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/410R3472LLL._SL500_AA300_.jpg ) just hang them instead of using the clamps. Then use these for the bulbs: http://www.lowes.com/pd_302257-3-26...entURL=/pl__0__s?Ntt=fluorescent+light&page=2 (they are 6500k and come in various wattages)

Wouldn't look as nice as a t5 hood, but would it be a good cheap option until i see how i do with the plants in the bigger aquarium? I figured, mount 2-3 of the domes over the tank to give it a even light spread. 

Would definitely fit in the "low-tech" category,


----------



## Clint (Oct 7, 2010)

I was playing around on a web site looking over plants, here are some i thought looked good, what do you think?

Crypt retrospiralis
Crypt petchii
Lilaeopsis brasiliensis "Micro Sword"
Echinodorus parviflorus "Rosette Sword"
Echinodorus martii "Ruffled Sword" - Small
Anubias nana "Round Leaf"
Crinum natans
and maybe a Nymphaea sp. "Aquarium Lily" if i go with nicer lighting.

man, $74 in just plants, never thought it'd be that much. Luckily petsmart has a sale on cardinal tetras until the 24th, only $1 each instead of $5. Wonder how many I can squeeze into my 10 gallon until i get this 29 up and running.  lol

here is a link to the shopping cart if it works (not buying anything yet, just put them there to make it easier on me to read up on them)

https://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/or...lZrJYSrN!-1939193993!-831845883!1286501994927

:fish:

Found some Blue Pearl Shrimp online, placed a bid on them, they wont ship until the 13th, gives me time to get things setup and running. Saw some really neat looking bright yellow ones, but they are a lil too pricey for my tastes. The LFS tried to get me to try some vampire shrimp, but those guys are kinda ugly and get too big. (not a fan of the crawdad lookin' shrimp)


----------



## Clint (Oct 7, 2010)

Well I'm down to the $59 65W coralife or the $53 36 watt T5 coralife if my DIY idea wont work. My LFS tried to sell me a similar T5 and then said to use it along with the current hood light, just place a tube geared towards plant growth in it. sounds like more clutter than my DIY idea really(and another $20 on top of the t5 hood for the new bulb), so I'm kinda leaning towards the 65w hood. I could put it over a glass hood to reduce the light in the tank if needed. All those nasty mineral deposits i cant scrape off should dim it rather well.  

http://hellolights.com/301x65wcoralifefreshwateraqualightcfhood1x6700k-straightpin.aspx

http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsU...5/cl0/coralifefwt5aqualightdoublestriplight30

And if i know myself any, I'll probably get hooked and wanna try harder plants later on, this way I wont have to upgrade my hood.


For a filter I was wondering if just a giant sponge filter with a power head wouldn't be enough, I can't see that being any worse than covering the intake tube of a HOB or canister with a sponge to keep babies out. And the large sponges would have plenty of bio filtration I'd think.
this + a powerhead? http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/203832/product.web
again, would keep this in the very low tech range. lol


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Clint said:


> I want to put some plant friendly stuff in there, then maybe cover it with some black estes sand.


Cheapest way to go for substrate is to do the El Natural method. If you have high ph you don't want to use crushed coral. I like Scotts top soil. You could just top it with the sand. Or to be prepared to grow anything you could do MTS. I did a quick version by using Laterite, Reptile Coconut Bark, Scotts Top Soil, and Pool filter sand.

Have you looked in the swap n shop part of this forum. Usually people send more than you pay for. 



Clint said:


> Used those silver reflector domes you see on some clamp on shop lights with the 6500k screw-in fluorescents.
> (these: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/410R3472LLL._SL500_AA300_.jpg ) just hang them instead of using the clamps.


I think 2 of those would help you grow anything you wanted, but get the daylight rated ones.


----------



## Clint (Oct 7, 2010)

Bought one 20# bag of eco-complete today(it was actually cheaper than the bags of flourite they had at the lfs) then I'll top that off with some small grain gravel (unless you guys think I should have a lil more of the EC or some flourite). Just deciding if I wanna use my black aquarium gravel, or buy some natural color smaller gravel.

I haven't seen the swap and shop part of this site yet, been mainly trying to read up on the how-to's of planted tanks. And the hardest part, deciding what plants and where to stick them.


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Clint said:


> Bought one 20# bag of eco-complete today. I'll top that off with some small grain gravel.


Why top it? Many use only it. If it is to stretch what you bought best to mix it with something that has similar color, for it will eventually mix.


----------



## Clint (Oct 7, 2010)

Hilde said:


> Why top it? Many use only it. If it is to stretch what you bought best to mix it with something that has similar color, for it will eventually mix.


I was going to top it because the 20 pound bag wouldn't be deep enough to plant things in, I just thought it would be a good base layer for the roots to reach down to and get nutrients. I could buy another bag and use only eco complete, but I was trying to keep this a lower cost project (luckily for me the wife doesn't know how much the plants can run, lol)

I had thought about mixing it, but figured a good solid base layer would ensure i have it all across the tank.

I need to run to the pet store and get something for my new vampire shrimp to hide in, I'll see what i can find to match the eco in looks.

(right now the vamp is at the top of my tank behind the AC70's water return, half his legs are out of the water, I'm glad I have a full glass lid on that tank, he'd probably be out if he could, but he does have his fans out catching food now, so he's doing better than last night where he was pretending to be dead)


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Clint said:


> I was going to top it because the 20 pound bag wouldn't be deep enough to plant things in I was trying to keep this a lower cost project (luckily for me the wife doesn't know how much the plants can run, lol).


I was thinking of doing something similar when I move. Was thinking of using it to top old substrate, mostly Scotts' top soil. But I read that-eco-complete will affect pH until the coating washes off. Should stabilize after a few weeks and regular water changes.


Clint said:


> I need to run to the pet store and get something for my new vampire shrimp to hide in, I'll see what i can find to match the eco in looks.


You could get something and paint it with Rustoleum paint brand paint. Many use it without toxic affects on fish.


----------



## Clint (Oct 7, 2010)

Hilde said:


> You could get something and paint it with Rustoleum paint brand paint. Many use it without toxic affects on fish.


I just bought a 4" ceramic pot for $.75, not pretty, but will work. 

the eco- complete went farther than i thought, gave me a 1.25-1.5 inch layer across my tank, I read that i need 2-3 inches minimum for rooted plants though.

I found a 15# bag of flora max at petsmart ($10 less than the eco from the LFS, but also 5# less). I bought a 20 pound bag of small grain pebble beach mix gravel from petco http://www.petco.com/product/107329...Gravel.aspx?CoreCat=FishFC_GravelandSubtrates before i went to petsmart, I'm going to return one of the two tomorrow. The flora max is a dark reddish brown color, would make the tank different looking (the eco is black). 

Suppose i could just return the gravel and use some of the black aquarium gravel i pulled from the tank to top off depth and keep the flora max to have more plant friendly gravel.


----------



## Clint (Oct 7, 2010)

Ok, from now on I'm never using anything but Eco-Complete. I put it straignt into the tank out of the bag, added water to level it.... crystal clear water.

this other flourite... said light rinsing is needed even though it was pre rinsed... 20 rinses later and the water still looks like dark coffee..


----------



## Clint (Oct 7, 2010)

well i now have a 29 gallon tank of coffee.. >.<

we'll see how long it takes my army of filter floss stuffed powerhead filters to clear up the water...


----------



## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

Careful, I laid down flourite last week, plenty of rinsing, and had the same effect. Keeping the filter on worked, but it seriously gunked things up. I had to thoroughly rinse my sponge media in tank water during a water change to clear all the clay out, which probably got rid of most of its bacteria. If i ever do something similar and get coffee, I plan on not running the filter for at least 24 hours to let it settle rather than clog the filter.


----------



## Clint (Oct 7, 2010)

Well, two hours passed (watched a movie) i went and checked on the progress, i could almost see the back wall, broke down the filters and cleaned them out and tossed them back in the tank. Then it hits me, i have a older style Emperor 400 wasting away in my basement.. :icon_idea

I dug out that beast, hosed it off, stuffed it to the brim with poly fiber, filled her up with water and plugged her in... the impeller is a little bad (rattles, but hey, I've had it since 1998 and it was on a marine tank for it's first 5 years) but it was still shoving a flood of water into that poly fill. I actually had to reduce the flow one click because I was worried that it might overflow.

Lets see how fast it clears up now. 


Hmm, I also have an Emperor 280 in the garage... wonder how much current I can make in one little tank.. hehe


----------



## Clint (Oct 7, 2010)

kevmo911 said:


> Careful, I laid down flourite last week, plenty of rinsing, and had the same effect. Keeping the filter on worked, but it seriously gunked things up. I had to thoroughly rinse my sponge media in tank water during a water change to clear all the clay out, which probably got rid of most of its bacteria. If i ever do something similar and get coffee, I plan on not running the filter for at least 24 hours to let it settle rather than clog the filter.


These are all junk/spare filters so they can get a little messy. But I think I'll stick with Eco-complete in the future, it didn't really cost much more than the messy stuff I put on top of it. Seeing clear water after pouring in a bag of substrate is worth the extra few dollars to me.


----------



## Clint (Oct 7, 2010)

yay, we have water instead of coffee!!!.. roud:

adding the emp 400 did the trick, i also tossed in one of my bio-magnet samples, between the two the water is now crystal clear (the emp's filter floss was brown and when i went to rinse out the other filters, their pads were fairly clean).

now for my true filtration of the tank... I'm still trying to decide, I bought a aqueon just because they were on sale for cheap and about sold out and some people seem to really like them (one of those impulse "just in case" purchases). But i like the idea of those Sunsun canisters (surface skimmer and all). I also found some HOB's with surface skimmers that are pretty cheap, and I can get a 350 gph one for only $30 http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3579+16729&pcatid=16729 but i cannot find any informal reviews on them.

Magnum 250 HOT's are roughly the same price as the sunsun also, no skimmer, but has the nice water polishing option and no canister sitting on the dresser next to the tank. Soo many choices... :help:

I'm kinda big on the skimmer idea because i added some plant food to my 10 gallon test tank and now i have a solid film all across the top of the tank except where the water return is. So I'm guessing I'll have the same issues in the 29 if i ever have to start adding plant food to it.

they do sell surface skimmers you can hook to most filter intakes, so that's always an option.


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Clint said:


> *How do i treat ich in a planted tank?*


In the planted tank I have used Ich buddies and increased the temp. I was fortunate to have caught it the beginning phase though. I used it for it was the only medication I could find at the LFS.


Clint said:


> Should i use heat and salt on the quarantined gourami, or malachite green.


That is hard to say without a picture. If it looks like the fish in the picture it needs malachite green. If just in the beginning stage the Ich buddies will work.










Clint said:


> <sigh> break my quarantine rule once and it bites me in the butt.. :angryfire


Well at least you had extra tank around. I would put the the ich buddies in the main tank, even if you don't see any other fish with the ich.


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Clint said:


> actually, that lamp is a high output.. i think mine is just a plain ole T5, the bulbs in it now are only 18w.


Oh, sorry. Well check the web site out. For unbelievable low shipment charge. In fact sometimes they don't charge. Perhaps hardware store has some? Let me know what you get for 1 day I will need to replace T5NO 18 watt bulbs. 

Someone told me that you can put a T5HO in a T5NO. It will be dimmer, though. I may try it out one day.


----------



## Clint (Oct 7, 2010)

I have malachite green (Quick cure) and salt on hand, I'll see if i can find some ich clear by tank buddies tomorrow, 

the one gourami did have the ich cysts on his side, only a handful though. I may just do the 1 tsp of salt per gallon deal on the main tank for now and cross my fingers.. still trying reading up on gourami to see if those treatments are safe for them.


----------



## Clint (Oct 7, 2010)

It was wierd though, was was showing none of the signs like other fish I've seen in the past with ick, they usually rub on things and twitch a lot. 

But better safe than sorry they say.


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Clint said:


> The one gourami did have the ich cysts on his side, only a handful though.


Sounds like it needs malachite green (Quick cure). When I treated it with ich buddies fish only had 4 spots.


----------



## Clint (Oct 7, 2010)

Well now he has no spots that i can see, I assume the net knocked them lose, or it was something else just stuck to him...

hmm, to treat or not to treat.... I'd hate to stress him out more than he already is.


----------



## Clint (Oct 7, 2010)

I have him in a container acclimating to the quarantine tanks water, I'll still put him in there and not pour the container into it so the cysts will not enter the tank. think i should still treat him with the quick cure for a few days anyways, or just wait and see if he gets spots again?


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Clint said:


> I have him in a container acclimating to the quarantine tanks water, I'll still put him in there and not pour the container into it so the cysts will not enter the tank. think i should still treat him with the quick cure for a few days anyways, or just wait and see if he gets spots again?


I would just use the salt and increase the temp. I will help build up his immune system.


----------



## Clint (Oct 7, 2010)

Well I feel pretty good about this little guy, even after all the man handling and being tossed into a bare tank (with only a pot to hide in) he is still searching for food and seems to have a healthy appetite.

I've only put 2 tsp of salt into the filter for now, I'll add another in a hour or two, ease him into it.. now, to figure out how to heat the tank... i think the 400 watt heater in my 90 gallon's sump is a lil big for a 10 gallon.. hehe (goldfish tank, i have it set to minimum and it never comes on, the return pump and canister filter pump seem to keep the water a couple degrees over room temp.)

The PF150's have a nice built in heater option, but i only have one it is on the planted tank.. but i think I'll pull it off for now and give it to the isolated fish, i'll have to steal the 200 watt heater out of the 36 bowfront kit I have for my mother in law (setting that up for her this coming weekend, my favorite part of fish keeping, setup and design. luckily this is a fish only setup, my specialty  )


----------



## Clint (Oct 7, 2010)

Should i Salt the planted tank as well just to cover all bases, or just keep a close eye on the fish? 

I'm raising the temp in that tank either way, it was only 76 when i got home.


----------



## Clint (Oct 7, 2010)

yay, the aponogeton bulbs i tossed in my test tank are starting to sprout (well two out of the 5 are). Usually I have no luck with these cheapo walmart bulbs.

I think I'll move the sprouted ones into my planted tank so they can get more nutrients. (the test tank just has silica sand and is supplemented with API leaf zone once a week.)


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Clint said:


> yay, the aponogeton bulbs are starting to sprout. Tank just has silica sand and is supplemented with API leaf zone once a week.)


I think they would do better dosing with Brightwell aquatics Florinmulti (calcium chloride, iron EDTA, magnesium sulphate, potassium iodide, potassium sulphate, zinc sulphate, potassium iodide, potassium sulphate, zinc sulphate). Extremely cheap here with only $1 for shipment.


Clint said:


> Should i Salt the planted tank


Some plants melt when salt is introduced. 


Clint said:


> Well I feel pretty good about this little guy


Could be just the stress that was making him ill. I have had that happen with some fish. I put them back in main tank within a few days and they got sick again. Found this info - For treating stress pre-dissolve the salt  1 Tablespoon of per each 5 gallon. Increase the temp by 4 degrees, max. of 82 degrees F


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If you're sure it's ich, I'd treat the main tank. If you're not sure, then I wouldn't. I'd just keep the little guy in QT for a few weeks with close observation.

If you treat the main tank, I'd raise the temps slowly up into the mid-80sF and dose salt at 1/2 to 1 tsp per gallon (one tablespoon per 5 gallons is the dosage people use who keep salt in their tanks all the time, and may not be enough to kill off ich).


----------



## Clint (Oct 7, 2010)

Well i thought I was sure it was ich, not so much now.. still no spots in the main tank and still no new spots on the little guy i quarantined. Everyone is still acting healthy, even the one in the 10 gallon doesn't seem to be stressed about his isolation.

I've only encountered ich once before about a year ago (not a bad track record for 12 years of fish keeping). But I've always had fish only tanks, so i didn't have to worry about "melting plants" (what does that mean exactly anyways?)

Maybe that was the first outbreak and I caught them before they could drop off and spread. <crosses fingers> we'll see in a week or so I guess.

I raised the temp in the main tank just to be safe.



Thanks again for the product link, I'll grab some when I run out of the API stuff.


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Clint said:


> About "melting plants" (what does that mean exactly anyways?)


The plant leaves become soft and the plant becomes mush.


----------



## Clint (Oct 7, 2010)

I found a 13 watt submersible UV sterilizer on ebay for only $36 (goes for about 90 on most web sites)

I was looking into these anyways, but now I have a better excuse to get one.  lol

this is what it looks like: http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4393+19643&pcatid=19643

but of course cheap ebay sells never give brand names.


----------



## Clint (Oct 7, 2010)

Hilde said:


> The plant leaves become soft and the plant becomes mush.


Ah, thanks. Yea, i don't wanna do that.


----------



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Clint said:


> I found a 13 watt submersible UV sterilizer on ebay for only $36 (goes for about 90 on most web sites)


Cheap alternative is to dose with hydrogen peroxide, store product, daily 2ml.


----------



## Clint (Oct 7, 2010)

*Anyone wanna buy my new sunun off me? *

Well I'm starting to think I didn't need to order that canister filter, my little tetratec PF150 is keeping the tank nice and clear and it's internal heater is keeping the tank at a steady 80 degrees. :fish:
I just have to turn the tidal flow part off at night, that random gurgling will drive ya nuts if you are trying to get to sleep. I don't notice it as much during the day. (it's just a click noise at the start of the siphon, then a short gurgle at the end.)

Tetra filters may not all be great, but their customer service sure is, I got these free when I bought a used tank, but Tetra still sent me free replacement parts (full intake tube kits with impellers and a couple sets of o-rings). 

Ich update, still no signs of any more spots on the isolated gourami, and the main tank is still in the clear. roud:

I think I'll give him a couple more days of isolation just to be sure though, he has the platys in the quarantine tank next to him to watch if he gets bored. (nothing wrong with the platys, they are just new and under observation)


----------

