# BBA loves low light, too!



## barbarossa4122

Keep us updated please.


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## DarkCobra

Reminds me of Creepshow:










As dark with chlorophylls as BBA is, it's no wonder it can do well in low light. Will be watching to see the results.


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## sewingalot

^Disturbing picture. I wonder if I fall asleep close to the tank if this would happen. I really think BBA is the bane of my existence. In a strange way, I find it very pretty.


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## houseofcards

sewingalot said:


> ^Disturbing picture. I wonder if I fall asleep close to the tank if this would happen...


LOL

BBA is definitely for me an organic load question. I've seen indoor koi ponds with only in-direct light have some really bad BBA.


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## sewingalot

Me, too. I've found reducing organics always seems to improve the BBA issue. I put the wood in the bucket and it's so hard for me not to 'peek.' I'll update in a week if I can remember.


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## kozlany

I bet it's still alive.

Easier to throw a little bleach in and finish it.


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## fishykid1

I have noticed also that BBA shows up in high light tanks when there's not enough CO2. And the way plants spot their carbon source is that they go to the easiest to grab first, being co2 because it only needs to be broken down once. When not enough co2 is present plants begin to break down organic molecules, but can't do that as fast as algae.
So...it doesn't matter the light setup. As another poster said, it's co2 and organics...


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## Jeff1192

I completely agree that it's related to organics. I have a high bio-load in my 90 gallon and used to be a notorious over-feeder. I always had BBA issues. However, I recently seriously reduced the amount of food that I feed and my BBA problem is almost completely gone. So while related to CO2 levels and distribution within the tank, organics definitely are part of the puzzle as well.

Jeff


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## houseofcards

Jeff1192 said:


> I completely agree that it's related to organics. I have a high bio-load in my 90 gallon and used to be a notorious over-feeder. I always had BBA issues. However, I recently seriously reduced the amount of food that I feed and my BBA problem is almost completely gone. So while related to CO2 levels and distribution within the tank, organics definitely are part of the puzzle as well.
> 
> Jeff


I think organic load is at the core. If you raise co2 levels to fight BBA what are you really doing? Aren't you fueling the plants to increase their uptake of the organics. That's why when you have healthy growing plants you usually don't have algae problems, but sometimes it's not enough thus the water change, organic removal media, less food, less stock, etc, etc, etc.


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## tuffgong

I've seen BBA in every display tank at one LFS around here. I believe they have T8's running over the tank. So I too believe it's related to organics in the long run with high light causing accelerated growth.


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## sewingalot

kozlany said:


> I bet it's still alive.
> 
> Easier to throw a little bleach in and finish it.


Yes, but then I wouldn't have a fun little experiment. :biggrin:



houseofcards said:


> I think organic load is at the core. If you raise co2 levels to fight BBA what are you really doing? Aren't you fueling the plants to increase their uptake of the organics. That's why when you have healthy growing plants you usually don't have algae problems, but sometimes it's not enough thus the water change, organic removal media, less food, less stock, etc, etc, etc.


I am thinking it is a combination of fluctuating co2 (not necessarily low) and organics. After my solenoid blew, I've been running co2 at about 1.6 BPS 24/7 and the BBA is dying slowly. And this is with 54 x 4 t5ho on a 55 gallon. I've also noticed when I let the filters get dirty or I overfeed, both the BBA and snail population increases.


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## chad320

Organics is also probably tied into your problem with Reds fading. Its hard to restrict N with alot of organics in the tank.


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## sewingalot

Actually, this is another tank, Chad. However, I did find the problem with my reds fading. Apparently, the digital timer needed new batteries. It's been loosing time and not powering on, so only one set of lights was coming on. I replaced the batters and in two days, the rotala is already improving. :thumbsup:


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## accordztech

I found that lower or fluctuating co2 levels cause co2. But also what helps is good flow throughout the aquarium. 

For bba being that concentrated I would take out that piece and hit it with hot water or pour very hot boiling water on it. Maybe a light manual scrub. Then get some H202 and pour it on there and let it sizzle then give it a good rinse. Its a good and fast way to kill h202. Once I put it back in the tank its a redish color and then after a few days its starts dissapearing, when I do a waterchange ill hit it with h202 in the tank.

Thats what I did when I was still learning about all this balance stuff. 

If you want a good timer, go to target they are power operated 3 prong for 5 bucks.


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## mistergreen

Yes they love any light condition and I have a feeling they will receive any light frequency as well. Green plants and algae don't need green light for instance.. By being black, they absorb all frequencies.

And I imagine it will survive a nuclear blast as well.

Oh! and they like to attach themselves on top of other algae like GSA or brown.


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## ubr0ke

If you want to see if your aquarium is high in organics you could dose potassium permanganate.. 0.6 g per 80 gallons. Set timer for 4 hours.
Mix pp with 1 litre of tank water. Pour in tank from one side to the other.
Wait 4 hours. If water quality is excellent water will turn light purple.
If its good it will turn pink. Bad water will turn yellow or brown. If yellow or brown. Add de-clorinater and add another 0.6 g per 80 gallons. Repeat process till water is purple or pink. When done add de-clorinater.


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## hbosman

I believe that fluctuating CO2 is the trigger for BBA to appear. But once it's there, even if the CO2 issue is corrected, it will continue to thrive until, it is either killed or manually removed. So fixing the CO2, lighting, ferts etc. is necessary to prevent it from reappearing but you still have to remove what's existing.


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## ubr0ke

As long as macros and micros are non limiting, keeping co2 stable and at appropiate levels will stop the growth of new bba but will not kill it.


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## hbosman

ubr0ke said:


> As long as macros and micros are non limiting, keeping co2 stable and at appropiate levels will stop the growth of new bba but will not kill it.


Yeah, you stated it better. :icon_redf


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## houseofcards

ubr0ke said:


> As long as macros and micros are non limiting, keeping co2 stable and at appropiate levels will stop the growth of new bba but will not kill it.


To be honest, I really don't agree with that. It's too rigid and relies on a certain amount of plant mass. Why do you think stable or good co2 (assuming macros/micros are available) stops BBA?


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## ubr0ke

Simple......Plant growth....

Plants have competitive advantages over algae when nothing is limited.
Macros, Micros, and Of course the hardest to master co2.


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## ubr0ke

If organic matter is responsible then why on low tech tanks water changes are not needed for months at a time...Wouldn't the organics build up over time and cause huge bba problems...In fact bba is easier induced on a non co2 low tech tank by doing water changes to often...Big swings in co2.


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## mistergreen

This algae is not easy to figure. It'll survive and thrive in any condition, low organic, high CO2, low light, or otherwise. It will slow down a bit, not die off, in low organic situations though...


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## ubr0ke

I found it only comes around when co2 needs are not met...Most commonly when too much light is used...or with people using diy. I had bba when i purchased a new fixture...a t5ho..hah...

I upped co2 slowly for about 4-5 days....bba stopped growing..
I removed effected area's and tank is clear of algae once again.


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## barbarossa4122

I got BBA when I replaced my bulbs. In both tanks.


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## ubr0ke

barbarossa...exactly...brighter bulbs made more of a demand for co2. That demand was not met and you got bba..

Have you fixed this issue?


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## barbarossa4122

ubr0ke said:


> barbarossa...exactly...brighter bulbs made more of a demand for co2. That demand was not met and you got bba..
> 
> Have you fixed this issue?


I did back then. I did not have co2 when this happened, now I do and also now I have the lights 12" above the tank.


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## ubr0ke

It makes things alot easier when you raise your fixture doesn't it.


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## barbarossa4122

ubr0ke said:


> It makes things alot easier when you raise your fixture doesn't it.


Sure does. Many thanks to Hoppy for the excellent work he did and does on lighting.


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## sewingalot

I think some of you guys are over thinking this a bit. *Algae *is _*not *_caused by anything but _algae_. Light, co2 and nutrients all feed algae as it does plants. Take a tank sans plants and add almost amount of lighting, co2, non limiting nutrients and BBA. I guarantee it'll flourish.

I agree with houseofcards on this one. Are you really algae free? Or is it in the background waiting for a heads up? All it takes is one thing being out of balance to set it off. That's my point.

Some people prevent this from happening by lowering light levels, some by lowering nutrient levels. There is no right or wrong way to go about it. I just wanted to share a picture of BBA in lower light and see if the algae still lives in a week in total darkness (using tank water).

My point is "relax, it's only algae."


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## willbldrco

I had an "algae-free" tank for the entire spring/summer/fall and then, *BAM*, I had thread algae, hair algae, staghorn, etc. in a matter of 4-5 days. I couldn't figure it out since my routine had worked for months. Then one day I worked a day from home and noticed that this time of year, at about 9:30am, a HUGE beam of sunlight hit my tank square on through a window that only lets in direct sunlight when the sun is low in the southern sky (i.e. winter).

I did a spot treatment of enough Excell to treat the tank 2x, followed by a 4-day blackout. Two weeks later things are back to normal.

...well, I'll keep a sheet of black plastic on the front of the tank during the day until spring. 

Morale of the story: Algae is always there. Looking for an opportunity to go gangbusters. 

Will


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## ubr0ke

I tend to investigate things rather then to accept that algae is caused by algae. Whatever that means.


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## sewingalot

Good for you. Everyone should investigate on his own and not just drink the kool-aid. I meant algae creates new algae. If you don't understand my way of thinking, there is a simple answer for this: ignore me. That's what I do.


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## ubr0ke

Ok algae creates new algae but what induces these in tanks?...If you can't answer that, can you really give advice?..

Im not going to ignore you. I just want facts not opinions.

Its a fact that light drives co2 demand. Others including myself have described situations where bba has been induced after changing bulbs, fixtures etc...
So why is that?...
I dose using a heavy e.i. schedule so i can rule out ferts. I keep nutrient levels far from limiting. The only thing that has changed is lighting. So since we know lighting drives co2 demand its obvious my co2 needs to be slowly increased to match the higher levels of lighting i or whoever else has added to return tank to previous algae free state.

So if there was no change in light and I am dosing ei. so no ferts are limited and i some how induce bba I can comfortably say it has something to do with co2 since its the only variable 
that could have changed.


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## sewingalot

If you want facts and not opinions, you might want to read posts not made by me. I am really sorry, but that is all I have to offer.


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## sewingalot

I'll get some pictures up either later today or tomorrow when the bubbles on the glass dissipate. Some interesting observations (to me) after the Black brush algae (or is it black beard algae? I've heard both.) covered driftwood has been in bucket of the tank water after a week of darkness:

1. The nitrates are about 5 ppm in the bucket after a week of darkness.
2. The phosphates are between 2-3 ppm on API test kit.
3. The water was Really low in pH. I normally have about 7.2 -7.4 pH in the water from the tap, this was showing around 6.0 - 6.2 (I measured with two different API tests.)
3. Fissidens almost completely gone or what's left has turned brown, but the flame moss is mostly green.
4. The bba is still present, just looks like it took a nap. No growth, maybe a little shorter, but definitely alive. Still the same texture, has a dark green color. I pulled a bit off and it is a bit musty with almost a lotion feel to it. Not oily, but kind of greasy feeling. Hard to describe in words.

So basically, I've come up with the conclusion a 3 day blackout might not phase this algae. It'll probably just suspend it's growth. Interestingly enough, there are lots of little tufts all over this driftwood on the front, but the back side has always been mostly clean of algae. Kind of reminds me of moss growing on the north side of trees. 

I am going to put the driftwood it in a small jar with the tank water from the bucket. I'll sit it in ambient room lighting to see if there is any change. Not really asking for ways to get rid of BBA, there's a sticky for that. I'm just making observations for myself.
_
Please note: I know test kits aren't considered to be accurate, but I use them and see noticeable differences, so I like to tinker anyway. I am not trying to prove what is the cause of the algae growth, just observing. I am also not interested in discussing why my opinions aren't relevant and will ignore anyone that tries to argue this point. I'm just doing this for my own amusement and thought there may be someone out there like me that appreciates it. _


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## shane3fan

I dont know what causes it for sure--I just know that I only have it in my high tech tanks. I only get it on rocks and wood--so I take them out and treat them with H2O2 if they get ugly.


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## DarkCobra

As physically tough as BBA is, even if it's dead it may take longer than a week to visibly decompose, without chemical help from H2O2/Excel.

And even if the existing growth is dead, driftwood is porous enough that it may still harbor spores/roots/whatever that can go dormant without light, and are capable of sending out new growth later when conditions are favorable. I've seen that before with other kinds of algae; even if driftwood is soaked for 20 minutes in H2O2 and all visible growth destroyed, it tends to regrow from the exact same spots.

So it would be interesting to see more updates if you notice anything significant!


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## sewingalot

I am thinking about taking it out of water and letting it dry out completely and then seeing if it reappears. I am thinking the slow decomposition of the driftwood is what feeds it.


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## Solid

sewingalot said:


> I am also not interested in discussing why my opinions aren't relevant and will ignore anyone that tries to argue this point. [/I]


I think your opinion in this portion of your post is irrelevant. :tongue:


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## sewingalot

Solid said:


> I think your opinion in this portion of your post is irrelevant. :tongue:


Instigator. :flick: Quite funny, actually. :thumbsup:


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## Solid

No, seriously I like where your going with your observations. I have also found BBA growing in low light areas of my tank especially on driftwood. Also any form of BBA torture methods are approved by me.


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## sewingalot

Don't worry, I got the joke.  I am actually getting quite bored with this hobby and algae manipulation is the fun part for me now. Anyone can grow plants, but can you grow BBA as pretty as I did? LOL


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## sewingalot

Sorry for the bad quality, but you'll get the picture (I crack myself up!):





































One thing I have noticed is that it's lost the dark coloring in some places and is actually green when you remove it from the driftwood. 









This was underneath the tuft above (looks like it grows on top of BBA!):









I have put the cup of algae in a cupboard. That was funny explaining to the husband not to open that for a week because I have algae growing. :icon_mrgr The driftwood is on the table in a vase of tank water. I am thinking of adding some substrate, as I actually find it very pretty. Maybe after my experimenting, I'll add a ramshorn or shrimp or two. :icon_bigg

And don't let the smiley icons fool you. I am smarter than I let on. :icon_wink I just really like them.


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## DarkCobra

Gah! The first one has eyes!

It is kinda pretty. But I'll stick with Marimo balls for that look. :hihi:


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## mistergreen

I dunked my piece of wood that was covered in BBA in straight 2% H2O2 for 15 minutes or so... Put it back in the tank and it turned red, white, and gone within a few days.


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## DarkCobra

Lol!


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## sewingalot

mistergreen said:


> I dunked my piece of wood that was covered in BBA in straight 2% H2O2 for 15 minutes or so... Put it back in the tank and it turned red, white, and gone within a few days.



















Too much!


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## Moe

Is that the Loch Ness Monster???:eek5:


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## sewingalot

I just realized with Mistergreen's finishing touches, it looks a LOT like Bart Simpson.


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## kcrossley

Okay, what if we approach the problem of BBA from another perspective. If you can't easily kill it, what eats it?


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## DarkCobra

Which digests BBA slowly, over thousands of years.

Seriously though, I've never heard of anything that reliably eats any significant quantity of it, unless the BBA is already dying.


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## kcrossley

So, what effectively kills it? I had an outbreak a few weeks ago and I torn down my entire tank to get rid of it. Apparently some of the spores remained and it's slowly coming back. Will regular 2x dosing with Excel work?


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## Fahnell

Brothers & Sisters
BBA can be eradicated in an instant. Without expensive stuff
I have only but ONLY overstocked tanks and no BBA
I did have it in kilos when i had internal filters. All was solved with 3 big sponges and a cheap Hailea pump
My pal at my local fish store keeps constanty 300 tetras in 100 liters of water. And they do not have Canisters ..only sponges.
Try that and 30% WC a week for 1 month and we talk ok?...and by the way. Get a big driftwood for a big load of tannis
That is my template and belive we i do not know what algae is. My RCS are starving bc of that


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## kcrossley

Fahnell said:


> Brothers & Sisters
> BBA can be eradicated in an instant. Without expensive stuff
> I have only but ONLY overstocked tanks and no BBA
> I did have it in kilos when i had internal filters. All was solved with 3 big sponges and a cheap Hailea pump
> My pal at my local fish store keeps constanty 300 tetras in 100 liters of water. And they do not have Canisters ..only sponges.
> Try that and 30% WC a week for 1 month and we talk ok?...and by the way. Get a big driftwood for a big load of tannis
> That is my template and belive we i do not know what algae is. My RCS are starving bc of that


Are you serious? How would you do that with a Biocube?










BTW, my actual filter looks like this from the top down:

*TOP*
1. Pond filter (blue/white mesh)
2. Polishing cloth
3. AquaClear Sponge (about 4" thick)
4. Bioballs (about 6" thick)
5. AquaClear Sponge (about 4" thick)
*BOTTOM*

Thanks for the info.


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## Fahnell

i will say that ugly word
that is why i hate preconstructed tanks 
106glph - aporx 450-500 liters right?
what is the volume of the tank?
You see imo the filtering material is ok but i will do 2 things if that bio is 50-100 liters
as i learned the bacterial dudes in the filter love rich oxygen water and a ph of 7.5 and around 20-25 C....and...not that fast flowing water. SO
- reduce the flow to 1 volume of tank /hour. you have a 50 liter? go for 50 tu max 100 from the pump
- and add an airstone
- just for trial get some elodea. Elodea is fast growing and TRULY aquatic. That plant can do allelopathy to inhibit algae
Can you get somehow a sponge next to the filter? Maybe a small hole for the air tube of the sponge?

Do not use algigids or BBA eating fish. We must get rid of BBA only from the filter.
*
*


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## kcrossley

Fahnell said:


> i will say that ugly word
> that is why i hate preconstructed tanks
> 106glph - aporx 450-500 liters right?
> what is the volume of the tank?
> You see imo the filtering material is ok but i will do 2 things if that bio is 50-100 liters
> as i learned the bacterial dudes in the filter love rich oxygen water and a ph of 7.5 and around 20-25 C....and...not that fast flowing water. SO
> - reduce the flow to 1 volume of tank /hour. you have a 50 liter? go for 50 tu max 100 from the pump
> - and add an airstone
> - just for trial get some elodea. Elodea is fast growing and TRULY aquatic. That plant can do allelopathy to inhibit algae
> Can you get somehow a sponge next to the filter? Maybe a small hole for the air tube of the sponge?
> 
> Do not use algigids or BBA eating fish. We must get rid of BBA only from the filter.
> *
> *


Yes, the tank is 109 liters. The pump I have is a MaxJet 1100, which is 920 LPH.


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## DarkCobra

kcrossley said:


> So, what effectively kills it? I had an outbreak a few weeks ago and I torn down my entire tank to get rid of it. Apparently some of the spores remained and it's slowly coming back. Will regular 2x dosing with Excel work?


BBA, how can we kill thee? Let me count the ways.

Prevention is always best. Double and triple check tank parameters. I know you've heard it a million times but it's worth repeating; and if I don't do it, someone else will. 

2x (or even 3x) Excel overdosing works for some people, but not for all. I prefer spot treatment, which always works; but the area you can treat per day is limited.

Plastic parts and most non-porous rocks can be bleached, driftwood can be boiled. No pesky spores left over.

Plants can be dipped. Some time ago, I had some Christmas Moss with a Cladophora infestation. Clado likes the same conditions as plants do, and stands up to H2O2 and Excel. I successfully removed it completely without harm to the moss with a 3 day dip in AlgaeFix, at the same concentration it recommends for whole-tank treatment (though I don't recommend ever adding it to a tank). Betcha it'll work for BBA and some other algae too, but I haven't had any algae to experiment on lately. Maybe someone else can try and report back?

This list is not comprehensive. I've even seen someone burn it off with a green laser.


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## kcrossley

DarkCobra said:


> I've even seen someone burn it off with a green laser.


I'd like to hear more about this.


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## Fahnell

gizz 920????
what is that? malawi turnover? 
way to much imo
at 60 liters i do max 100-120 with my airpump for the sponge
can you get it at 200 maybe?I repeat. SLOW & OXYGEN & Big filtration material. That is the trio to kill BBA

NH3/NH4 will go NO2 then NO3. you need that oxygen. and you must let the bacteria do the job not give them a waterfall.  NO3 will go with plants/water changes. I have no ideea now of a cheap way to force bacteria in the filter to do the anaerobic stuff and get the oxygen and release the N (full nitrogen cycle) 

You will notice that i have some sort of a big sponge air pump obsesion. btw this is from BBA. Last year i had BBA on eevry plant. I was desperate. WC 2 times a day, Excel, Easycarbo, Tetra Algumin, ect ect ect..then i went to my girlfriend.
100 liter tank. 2x big ancistrus, 2xtheracotum, and 3 big big slacare...no plants....AND NOOO ALGAE..and the tank in the window in full sunlight. I was KO. I asked when do you change the water? 1 a month if i remember she said to me. I was KO KO. The i noticed...THE SPONGE (aprox1,5 liter in volume). Cheap crap with results . The i got some book in agriculture with nitrogen cycle mentioned and explained...than it was clear: Give them strong filters in lph, small sponges..they get BBA they get frustraed..they buy algicids Excel..or external with lots of cash....and they will never think of those old simple filtration metohos of ancient days of aquariums


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## kcrossley

Fahnell said:


> gizz 920????
> what is that? malawi turnover?
> way to much imo
> at 60 liters i do max 100-120 with my airpump for the sponge
> can you get it at 200 maybe?I repeat. SLOW & OXYGEN & Big filtration material. That is the trio to kill BBA


I'm not sure how far I can dial the MaxJet 1100 down. I need to check.


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## DarkCobra

kcrossley said:


> I'd like to hear more about this.


LOL, here ya go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9618zGG7ow


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## kcrossley

DarkCobra said:


> LOL, here ya go:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9618zGG7ow


That's crazy. Does it work underwater? Will it hurt plants? Are they using a special laser?


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## Fahnell

no joking 
i know what a frustration BBA is
Then you go to the pet shop and they have a legion of tetras in a small tank and no BBA
how cand they do it you ask 


BTW. if now we experiment i urge the initiatior of the topic to do the test with a tank with that BBA a high light and a big sponge and an airpump rated at 1,5-2,5 the volume of the tank. at 20 liters a 30-60 liter output for ex. Then add floating some elodea and wait for 1 month 2 maybe. Just get that uglyone pls and put it that way
I did that with an anubias from a colegue of mine. Look at my nano in my profile. That is that anubias now


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## OverStocked

kcrossley said:


> I'm not sure how far I can dial the MaxJet 1100 down. I need to check.


Don't dial it down. The popular consensus is more focussed on less light and more co2, not reducing flow. In fact, sometimes MORE flow is necessary. 

I do not think there is anything to suggest that reducing the flow or more bio media has anything to do with this. Anecdotal at best. 

"I cut my foot off and my toe stopped hurting, so therefore the cure to a hurt toe is cutting your foot off".


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## kcrossley

over_stocked said:


> Don't dial it down. The popular consensus is more focussed on less light and more co2, not reducing flow. In fact, sometimes MORE flow is necessary.
> 
> I do not think there is anything to suggest that reducing the flow or more bio media has anything to do with this. Anecdotal at best.
> 
> "I cut my foot off and my toe stopped hurting, so therefore the cure to a hurt toe is cutting your foot off".


So, how much CO2 could I conceivably add, and how do I know when I've gone too far? Also, some people have suggested leaving the CO2 on 24/7. What are your thoughts on that?


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## OverStocked

I think that BBA in particular is one of those algaes that once you have it, nuking it is essential to stopping it. It doesn't seem to just "die" in my experience. You can stop it from spreading.... but not from living. Even in some of my very low tech tanks, it grows in super high flow areas(like covering a koralia). I have minimal other algae problems in these tanks. 

Is this wood in a particularly high flow area of your tank, Sara? Thought you were taking a break from the forum today! (DON'T DO IT!)


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## OverStocked

kcrossley said:


> So, how much CO2 could I conceivably add, and how do I know when I've gone too far? Also, some people have suggested leaving the CO2 on 24/7. What are your thoughts on that?


I don't do 24/7 co2, but I know Sara does and it seems to have worked well for her. 

You know you've gone too high when your fish suffer. SLOW changes and watching fish is essential. 

Reducing light seems to help as well. H2O2 spot treating is very effective as well.


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## kcrossley

over_stocked said:


> I don't do 24/7 co2, but I know Sara does and it seems to have worked well for her.
> 
> You know you've gone too high when your fish suffer. SLOW changes and watching fish is essential.
> 
> Reducing light seems to help as well. H2O2 spot treating is very effective as well.


H2O2 as opposed to Excel?


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## DarkCobra

kcrossley said:


> That's crazy. Does it work underwater? Will it hurt plants? Are they using a special laser?


It's not a practical solution, just a little fun torturing BBA.

First time I saw this, there was an article too, which I can no longer find. From memory, it's a modified handheld laser pointer which puts out more than the normal (and safe) 5mw. Reflections will burn your retina unless you wear safety glasses. No reason it wouldn't work underwater, but good luck fitting your fish with safety glasses. The treated BBA flaked off with some slight damage to the leaf underneath, no damage to leaf portions without BBA.


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## Fahnell

maybe
i just tell you how i resolved that BBA
that is not anedoctal. That is the way bacteria do the work. They do not work great at high water velocity
Anyway. CO2? you say?
But CO2 lowers the PH and it is well known that bacteria work best at slight alkaline PH . CO2 will boost plant growth and plants will take nutrients from algae
BTW CO2? Why? Since when aquatic plants (truly ones) need CO2?. Elodea and Cerathoplyllum for example extract C drom water directly (CaCo3). CO2 is only for SEMIaquatic plants like 90% of aqaurium plants (Rotala, Anubias, Echinodorus..ect etc)
I suspect from the start small filter material and that high velocity.And i said. you cad try in a separate setup the stuff that i told you
BTW. Search the web for nistrosomonas and mark PDF file extension in Google. You will find scientific works which explain how these bacteria work
Lower the lighttime?I suspect not. The tropical setup is a 12 h one. That is the daylight time in ecuator and tropic for most of the time
Lower the light? 50.000 lux at amazon water surface vs 15.000 of a good dennerle amazon day tube?What light to lower here?
BBA can and will die imo. At least mine did


----------



## OverStocked

kcrossley said:


> H2O2 as opposed to Excel?


I prefer H2O2. Short life, works fast, hard to overdose. TONS of threads on it here, just do a search. 
http://www.gpodio.com/h2o2.asp


----------



## OverStocked

Fahnell said:


> BBA can and will die imo. At least mine did


And that is why it is anecdotal. What does bacteria have to do with this algae? CO2 is used to provide adequate carbon, as such that plants will not have to work to take it manually. Why NOT add co2? And since MOST aquarium plants are "semi-aquatic", as *you *said... why wouldn't we provide them more co2???????????? BTW, most of these plants are fully aquatic with submersed and emersed forms. Merely being capable of growing out of water does not make them not aquatic. 

Seems as though in the course of about 5 posts you've tried to dismantle everything known and researched about planted tanks and algae causes and solutions. 

If oxygen was really what they need, why not just add surface agitation and thus add about 100x the oxygen that nitrosomanas would provide? I could provide bottled medical oxygen, but I know that wouldn't fix the problem. 


Measurements of light at 1 time of day do not reflect the same as how we provide a fixed level of light all day long. Natural water systems rarely get high level light all day, every day. They are also MUCH LARGER systems and have many variables that we do not provide in the home aquaria. Comparing a river to a 15 gallon aquarium has little value. 

Reducing the light and increasing the co2 is about CONTROL. 



Sara is gonna poop when she comes back and see what I did to her thread.


----------



## Fahnell

well it does
that algae has to eat right?
and what it eats?just like any plant. No3, CO2, light i am correct?
ok. if yor bacteria in your flter do the job you will have minimal NO3
We all know that the element that is in the most minute quantity will stun the growth of a plant (algae or superior plant)
Now with only a minute of NO3 and some true aquatic plants to grow fast and do allelopathy to BBA they will starve.

Ok. So suppose that i am wrong . How in an identical setup i changed only the internal filter (an eheim 2210 a big one for a 54 liter rated at 150 - 600l/h) and BBA and ohter green algae, thread algae were gone in 4 weeks?
I talk only about what i experimented nothing more

I just want to help our friend . You cand give him a path..i can give him another. right?He can try them

Ps: correct. 15 gals to a river is a big difference.


----------



## OverStocked

Limiting NO3 has nothing to do with algae, and in fact is more likely to cause algae. The entire Estimative Index dosing strategy involves NON limiting levels of nutrients, except for light. 

If you are keeping plants at a light level that allows you to not dose co2 or other nutrients(NPK, micros) then you are already limiting the lights your plants receive.


----------



## DarkCobra

The thing about BBA is it _loves_ to prove theories wrong. :hihi:

Just when you think you've got it figured out, you find it happily growing on the outflow of the filter that you're using to diffuse CO2, which isn't even in the light path.

Go figure. As long as it pulls stunts like that, I like hearing anecdotes; even if I don't necessarily agree with the conclusions.


----------



## Fahnell

welll....than how did i get rid of it ?
i can see the point of overstoked..but how
i mean from a logical point of view to eliminate a bug  i will vary one parameter at a time right?
and i did with light, nutrients, CO2, WC..and nothing..and than i added a crap of big sponge and bang...all was gone in 4 aquariums in my home and 7 at work (not all mine  )
friends that anubias in my 12 liter was like the first picture..like with a beard
how?
and if not N03?..what does it eat in low light?N is basic component of plant and human DNA


Cobra..shut up man )). i do not want to wake up next day to find my words ruined with BBA..AGAIN ). I was 100% sure i was on firm gruond with it..). overstocked made me think twice


----------



## sepehr

I have BBA growing on the 3D background, outlet spraybar, and the plants that are the nearest to the flow so in my experience BBA prefers the high flow areas. Some people here suggested I had too much light intensity and not enough CO2. So I ditched 2 out 4 bulbs (from X 54 watts T5HO to 2 bulbs and photoperiod has stayed the same for 8 hrs). I also upped my CO2 from 3 bps to 6 bps and now it takes the drop checker 2 hrs to turn green instead of 4 hrs. Now, Im crossing my fingers things get sorted out in a month or so.

My question is that if light/CO2 were out of balance in my tank then why didnt BBA appear everywhere in my tank instead of just the high flow areas?

The only period my tank was algae free was the time when plants were still growing. Once they hit their limit, algae started to appear. Sure one could always buy new plants to outcompete the algae but at the end you only have so much room. It seems, there will always be something to cause algae of diff kinds if it isnt low CO2 levels then it must be too much light, nutrient difficiency of some sort, flow issues, too much flow, water temp., under filtering etc...there will always be a reason.

To all those people who claim they run 100% algae free thanks, I salute you with a glass of whiskey on the rocks that I currently hold in my hand :icon_smil


----------



## bigboij

my only successful bba treatments have, excel x2-x3 ODs for 3-4 days straight and H202 spot treating with a syringe for a few days in a row. both followed up with a big WC


----------



## Fahnell

sepher..i do not have algae. so
1. i do not see well
2. my tank has another serious problem )
but really now..i see no algae. and i had tham all diatoms in the start, BBA, green ones tat stick to the glass and you just can not take them down, threaded ones, clado, brown. one after other
too shame that my last BBA died months ago. It could be an interesting candidate to some tests imo


----------



## sepehr

Fahnell said:


> sepher..i do not have algae. so
> 1. i do not see well
> 2. my tank has another serious problem )
> but really now..i see no algae. and i had tham all diatoms in the start, BBA, green ones tat stick to the glass and you just can not take them down, threaded ones, clado, brown. one after other
> too shame that my last BBA died months ago. It could be an interesting candidate to some tests imo


Im interested in finding out all the details about your approach to get rid of BBA. So you just stuck more sponge into your filter? I already have 2 sponges and an extra fine wool pad in my canister filter. I have a 75 gallon tank and the filter has 400G/H capacity but right now Im only running at 200 G/H coz the flow was bending all the stem plants and bothering the fish. How big is your tank? what kind of lights do you have? whats your photoperiod? and whats your fert dosing routine? Of course all these if you dont mind me asking...:icon_lol:


----------



## DarkCobra

Fahnell said:


> Cobra..shut up man )). i do not want to wake up next day to find my words ruined with BBA..AGAIN ). I was 100% sure i was on firm gruond with it..). overstocked made me think twice


LOL! Just don't show my post to your tanks.


----------



## Fahnell

hello sepher
the tanks 3 of them ...you can see them in my profile. The details are there
i take my confidence in the tannis from the driftwood and that simple pump driven filter
12 h of light from a JBL Tropic 15w T8
Sera florena at 7 dasys and sera daydrops each day
30-50% WC 
25C
54 liter tank 6,5-6,6 PH
5-6 German Hardness


----------



## happi

DarkCobra said:


> Reminds me of Creepshow:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As dark with chlorophylls as BBA is, it's no wonder it can do well in low light. Will be watching to see the results.


that's me without dosing co2 and fertilizers, lol


----------



## Fahnell

a little bit offtopic but interesting regarding to Elodea and Co2 stuff and the inner mechanism

http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/reprint/59/6/1133.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C4_carbon_fixation


----------



## sewingalot

What the? :icon_eek:

Glad to see there was a great discussion on my dear friend while I was away. Have very little to report at the moment, but I can add the BBA that has been in the dark for going on three weeks is now showing signs of 'shedding.' The BBA on the driftwood in ambient lighting is still alive and kicking. The BBA in my tank with 24/7 co2 and high lighting is still slowly receding. Definitely about to say I have found a correlation on something, but too early to confirm at the moment. Let me just say one word and give you all something to think about for a while: _oxygen_.


----------



## OverStocked

Interesting Sara. I am able to test oxygen administration to my tank.... maybe I'll give it a try.


----------



## Hilde

sewingalot said:


> This tank light is on for 4 hours a day.


For this tank I think you need to:
1. Increase your water flow (decreased by clogged filter)
2. Have a siesta time (lights on 3hrs 2x with no lights for 3hrs)
3. Increase nitrates. 
4. Dose 10ml of Excel daily for at least a week

This is what has helped me with BBA algae. Nitrates can be between 10 and 20ppm. Need pictures of other tanks, full view, to see if it is nitrate deficiency. BBA is mysterious. Many say low co2 levels behind it but it wasn't for me


----------



## johnnyboy2476

Sorry to jump in, but I'm having the same struggle with BBA. If it is an excess organic issue, would running a UV sterilizer help? I've read UV light breaks down organic matter.


----------



## sewingalot

Overstock, that sounds like a fun experiment. Keep us posted if you decide to try it out.



Hilde said:


> For this tank I think you need to:
> 1. Increase your water flow (decreased by clogged filter)
> 2. Have a siesta time (lights on 3hrs 2x with no lights for 3hrs)
> 3. Increase nitrates.
> 4. Dose 10ml of Excel daily for at least a week
> 
> This is what has helped me with BBA algae. Nitrates can be between 10 and 20ppm. Need pictures of other tanks, full view, to see if it is nitrate deficiency. BBA is mysterious. Many say low co2 levels behind it but it wasn't for me


Thanks for the tips and experience, Hilde. While I am not looking for help, rather just observing my little tufty friend, I am sure others may benefit from your advice. For instance, in this tank, there was enormous water flow, the lights were on less than you suggest, and the nitrates were very high despite it being a low tech tank. Right now, the wood is sitting in a jar for decoration and being further observed.



johnnyboy2476 said:


> Sorry to jump in, but I'm having the same struggle with BBA. If it is an excess organic issue, would running a UV sterilizer help? I've read UV light breaks down organic matter.


Welcome, johnnyboy! Feel free to jump in, but rest assured, I have no advice about UV light as I've never used it. I'll leave that to others to speculate on. Interesting thought, I'd be curious to know what people think about it.


----------



## Baronvaile

*Just my experince thus far*

So I've had my 55gal up for a little over two months. BBA came on fairly strong the last six weeks or so. The past two weeks I have been changing my water twice a week, reduced lighting time from 14 o 10hrs., and skipping one or two days a week of feeding.

Here's the kicker I think. During my 50% water changes one of the 5 5gal buckets is untreated tap water with what ever Chlorine is in there. I apply the untreated water directly to the Java Moss that is on the center piece with a siphon hose that I use for filling. The Java Moss was covered with BBA but has since retreaded, and no fish loss yet.


----------



## OverStocked

I have to replace my oxygen tank tomorrow, then I can restart the test. i do have some BBA currently, that seems resistant to H2O2 and Excel. I'd be very interested to see if this has any effect.... It certainly can't hurt anything at all.


----------



## sewingalot

Baronvaile said:


> So I've had my 55gal up for a little over two months. BBA came on fairly strong the last six weeks or so. The past two weeks I have been changing my water twice a week, reduced lighting time from 14 o 10hrs., and skipping one or two days a week of feeding.
> 
> Here's the kicker I think. During my 50% water changes one of the 5 5gal buckets is untreated tap water with what ever Chlorine is in there. I apply the untreated water directly to the Java Moss that is on the center piece with a siphon hose that I use for filling. The Java Moss was covered with BBA but has since retreaded, and no fish loss yet.


Very interesting. Do you think it is the chlorine in the tap water, the more frequent water changes, the reduced lighting, feeding or a combination of them all?



over_stocked said:


> I have to replace my oxygen tank tomorrow, then I can restart the test. i do have some BBA currently, that seems resistant to H2O2 and Excel. I'd be very interested to see if this has any effect.... It certainly can't hurt anything at all.


I'll be interested to see if my assumptions are correct, that oxygen is more important than we give it credit. Well, it could make the BBA worse. I've had many experiments that made things ten fold. :hihi:

Oh, I forgot to point out, the BBA in one of my tanks was filtered by a sponge filter and powerhead only. Here are a couple pictures of the BBA that was kept in the dark. Definitely turning yellow and falling apart. Part of me think this is the way it finds greener pastures.



















Something intriguing to me? It started looking like parts of it was pearling after being left on the counter all afternoon:









I'll get pictures of the driftwood later. Trying to figure out how to take a picture in a cylindrical glass. I may just stick it back in the sink for the pictures. Plus, the 'eyeballs' are cute.


----------



## Fahnell

hello
i "purchased" some BBA from a guy at work
Now it is on a anubias nana in my tank. 
the tank is a 60 liter setup with 55 or 60 neons and 10 cory
java moss, fern, anubias..no co2, a JBL t8 15w
1200 cc filter sponge and a pump.
i want to see if it grows..or dies. i will put photos soon
i want to see if it is a connection from the higher no3 levels do to overstocking /suplimentar oxygenation from the pump and the killing of BBA

seems that there are multiple paths to resolving this problem. and they seem to be 180 degrees of each other

btw sewingalot. i do not use sponge + powerhead but sponge and air pump. the old classic way. i suspect too that oxygen has something to do with it


----------



## Hilde

sewingalot said:


> Thanks for the tips and experience, Hilde. While I am not looking for help, rather just observing my little tufty friend, I am sure others may benefit from your advice.


I guess then it is not affecting your plants? What works for me may not work for others.


----------



## Hilde

Fahnell said:


> hello
> i "purchased" some BBA from a guy at work
> i want to see if it grows..or dies. i will put photos soon
> i want to see if it is a connection from the higher no3 levels do to overstocking


Never heard of anyone paying for. In my tank when the nitrates got up to 60, due overfeeding, string algae developed. It was when nitrates were unreadable that I had BBA problems.


----------



## Baronvaile

I am guessing the Chlorine in the tap water is what has done it in. Other patches of BBA seem weaker than before, but not like the area treated with the tap water. BTW Chlorine = Bleach if anyone didn't know. So it's like a bleach dip every time I do this treatment.


----------



## Fahnell

it is "purchased". 
i did not buy it proper. but it is on an anubias nana..and if i get rid of it..i get the plant. if not i get infested
and yes i want to see NO3 connection. (low or high)


----------



## sewingalot

Fahnell said:


> btw sewingalot. i do not use sponge + powerhead but sponge and air pump. the old classic way. i suspect too that oxygen has something to do with it


Actually, I do have a tank set up just like this. Now that you mention it, this is the one tank I've never dealt with BBA and many of the plants come from a tank that has a ton of BBA. However, this tank does have clado in some places.



Baronvaile said:


> I am guessing the Chlorine in the tap water is what has done it in. Other patches of BBA seem weaker than before, but not like the area treated with the tap water. BTW Chlorine = Bleach if anyone didn't know. So it's like a bleach dip every time I do this treatment.


Hmmm....I see another thing to try with my BBA in a jar. :thumbsup: Right now, it's just chugging along with little light and tank water. Even the flame moss is growing a tiny bit.



Hilde said:


> I guess then it is not affecting your plants? What works for me may not work for others.


More like it's not effecting me. The tanks that have BBA are really experimental tanks at this point.



Hilde said:


> Never heard of anyone paying for. In my tank when the nitrates got up to 60, due overfeeding, string algae developed. It was when nitrates were unreadable that I had BBA problems.


When you say it was unreadable and that you had BBA problems, would you mind being a little clearer for me? I am thinking you mean unreadable on the low end of the test? Such as 'when I had no detectable amounts of nitrates, I had BBA in my tank'? I think that's what you are saying, but I'm not 100% sure.


----------



## Hilde

sewingalot said:


> When you say it was unreadable and that you had BBA problems, would you mind being a little clearer for me?


During the time API test reading of nitrates was 0, yellow I had BBA problems. Now nitrates tend to get up to 40. To try to find out cause starting progressively a grow out tank.


----------



## Fahnell

sewingalot said:


> Actually, I do have a tank set up just like this. Now that you mention it, this is the one tank I've never dealt with BBA and many of the plants come from a tank that has a ton of BBA. However, this tank does have clado in some places.
> 
> So...taht simple setup of yours is like mine free of BBA. Hm...there must be a connection right?
> 
> from the design is clear that the sponge is a slow flow filter (better biological breakdown) and the water is rich in oxygen when it enters the sponge?bc i am overstoked i am sure that i have a decent No3 level


----------



## kcrossley

Has anyone tried one of The Algae Squad kits from Arizona Aquatic Gardens to control BBA and other forms of algae?
https://www.azgardens.com/c-18-the-original-algae-squad.aspx


----------



## mistergreen

SAE won't eat it. Otos won't eat it. Flying fox won't eat it.
'Golden Algae eaters' are aggressive so don't bother.

I have snail eating and shrimp eating fish so I haven't tried. And I haven't tried the Garra Pingi. I have a feeling they're not dedicated algae eaters.


----------



## kcrossley

SAE's won't eat BBA? The description on AZ Gardens website says they will. ??


----------



## OverStocked

I'm not going to write a review.... but I would suggest you google for a review of azgardens before you buy from them.


----------



## mistergreen

kcrossley said:


> SAE's won't eat BBA? The description on AZ Gardens website says they will. ??


Oops. My bad. Young SAEs will eat the stuff and only if there's no food alternative. Lots of people say as they grow older they don't touch algae much.


----------



## sewingalot

Fahnell said:


> sewingalot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I do have a tank set up just like this. Now that you mention it, this is the one tank I've never dealt with BBA and many of the plants come from a tank that has a ton of BBA. However, this tank does have clado in some places.
> 
> 
> 
> So...taht simple setup of yours is like mine free of BBA. Hm...there must be a connection right?
> 
> from the design is clear that the sponge is a slow flow filter (better biological breakdown) and the water is rich in oxygen when it enters the sponge?bc i am overstoked i am sure that i have a decent No3 level
Click to expand...

I am thinking it may have something with what Karackle was telling us a while back about airstones, not sure if it works in higher light setups. I've never tried.

In my recent experience, I am really thinking it comes down to this combination of problems. For instance, this following example happened in my 55 gallon: I got lazy and let my tank get dirty. There is more to it than that, but I'm still experimenting before I share all my laundry. :tongue:


----------



## mistergreen

I've been adding .5-1ml H2O2/10 gallon every other day. It seems to stunt the BBA growth a bit in addition to radical trimming of any affected plants. And scrubbing hardware.


----------



## sewingalot

Here's a tip I learned from a pool supply store: Brush it first with a toothbrush before treating it with excel. Part of the reason it seems so invincible is the 'armor' for lack of a better word. Brushing can damage it enough to let the chemicals due their job easier. I tried it recently and was surprised to find how easy it works.

Just be sure to wash off the toothbrush before using on your teeth later. I don't know if you'd want BBA on your pearly whites. **snickering at really, really lame joke**


----------



## mistergreen

sewingalot said:


> Here's a tip I learned from a pool supply store: Brush it first with a toothbrush before treating it with excel. Part of the reason it seems so invincible is the 'armor' for lack of a better word. Brushing can damage it enough to let the chemicals due their job easier. I tried it recently and was surprised to find how easy it works.
> 
> Just be sure to wash off the toothbrush before using on your teeth later. I don't know if you'd want BBA on your pearly whites. **snickering at really, really lame joke**


yeah, you kill it at the base.. It's the same with H2O2.. It's not enough to spot treat just the top... You have to inject at the base.


----------



## DarkCobra

Neat trick with the toothbrush, I'll remember that. Sounds like a good use for those cheap toothbrushes they give you after dental cleanings. 

I always wondered if H2O2 spot treatment isn't as effective as Excel, because the bubbling creates a current that carries it away before it has time to fully penetrate to the base of algae.


----------



## Fahnell

sewingalot said:


> I am thinking it may have something with what Karackle was telling us a while back about airstones, not sure if it works in higher light setups. I've never tried.
> 
> . :tongue:


a have a 10 liter with a 9 w Denenrle Amazon Day lamp. that is not exactly low light.stiil no BBA in that tank

That BBA is a piece of biologic engineering


----------



## OverStocked

Tonight I am going to begin injecting oxygen into my tank at about 1 liter per minute all day every day. I have some BBA that has been long lived, so I will start photographing and reporting back.


----------



## sewingalot

I'll be very interested in seeing the results, overstocked. Looking forward to it. In my opinion, I love reading experiments more than anything about the hobby. So far, the algae is keeping at bay for be and still slowly receding. There are some minor amounts currently present, but nothing more than a tuft here or there on a rock, old leaf.


----------



## SleepyOwl

Interesting thread... :icon_smil


----------



## nikonD70s

sewingalot said:


> This tank light is on for 4 hours a day and the rest of the time, it gets room lighting only, which isn't a lot. Yet, the BBA is flourishing in this tank a lot more than any other tank I own. Goes to show lower light levels doesn't seem to deter it's grow. I've decided to pull this out of the tank and leave it in a bucket of water covered with a lid for a week and see if it dies off at all.


i love these kind of algae. i would love a carpet of this....seriously!


----------



## OverStocked

Gimme your address.....


----------



## !shadow!

nikonD70s said:


> i love these kind of algae. i would love a carpet of this....seriously!


lol first time i've heard that one. l wouldnt mind either if l could pull off the look.


----------



## sewingalot

nikonD70s said:


> i love these kind of algae. i would love a carpet of this....seriously!


I agree. I think it is a very lovely algae. In lower light, it gets a pretty grayish hue to it like that pictured. I actually don't mind the algae as long as it doesn't get too much on the plants and stays on things like substrate or driftwood. It's rather pretty swaying in the breeze.


----------



## kcrossley

Okay, you guys are officially crazy. Time to take a vacation away from this hobby. LOL


----------



## sewingalot

What can I say, I love BBA! I'm guilty, but I just admire its persistence and ability to adapt to pretty much anything. You just reminded me I forgot to upload these pictures. I love this new shot. You can really see were some of the bald spots are filling in. My husband is seriously jealous of this guy's ability to grow hair so quickly. I offered to put some BBA on his forehead, but he wouldn't speak to me for an hour after that. LOL

Also, I noticed there are new areas the bba is growing on. It's starting to grow on the sides and the lower part of the driftwood. Got to love how this is growing so well with just overhead lighting in the room. It's actually starting to look very pretty. I wonder if I could put a snail in this little tank. 




























I am adding the previous pictures here as well so you can compare the difference.



sewingalot said:


>


----------



## Fahnell

now it looks like a nice moss 
imagine a driftwood full of BBA


----------



## sewingalot

Yeah, I really like it on this driftwood. I'm turning this into a little tank full of BBA. It's a 10 x 5 inch cylinder glass. I change its water every week with fresh tank water and leave it sitting on a counter. I'm thinking about adding extra fertilizers to see if I can encourage it's growth. Haha, I could call it my nano tank.


----------



## mistergreen

What?
You are showing affection for BBA?

It's ok I guess until it grows on your plants.


----------



## sewingalot

It's really lovely, truly. I don't mind a little algae. It gives me the perception that life is like my tank. Imperfect in some ways, but when you squint at me with one closed, I'm perfect and so is the tank! :hihi: Truly, not everyone can be Tom Barr in this hobby and have pristine tanks. I like my algae. It keeps me humble.

Oh, and here is a picture of a tank lit with one T12 approximately 1 foot above the 10 gallon tank, he leaves the lights on 10 hours a day. I actually talked him into letting take water home to sample. Nitrates were registering on my kit at 5 ppm and phosphates less than .25 to zero. Filtration was a underground filter. The tank was pristine. 

I'm still going back to my opinion of algae causes algae. Want to have an algae free tank? Follow another thread. :biggrin: If this makes no sense to you all, that is quite alright with me. I am not out to change anyone's mind or to convince them my way is the correct way. In fact, I am often the instigator of algae, so to follow me may be asking for trouble.


----------



## mistergreen

What?

You have corn candy gravel?

You better not have plastic plants in there.


----------



## plantbrain

Acceptance is the final stage of algae:redface:

I cultivate algae specifically:










Cladophora is typically a baneful terror for planted aquarist, but the balls and this stuff are well desired here above.

Very nice moss like tufts.

If you consider algae like a weed or an invasive species, then it takes considerable effort to beat it back to establish the prior ecological stability. If the plants are doign well, high biomass, and are trimmed often etc, then that is a very hostile place to new algae to establish.

If we disturb the aquarium, remove too many plants, or do not take care of the plants, do not allow the plants to establish, do not remove and weed any algae, then much like a neglected garden or landscape, it will not look good.

To get the aquarium back to that original state, it requires a lot more effort than many think would typically be required. Most are okay with this as long as they get results out of this extra work. 

But is the root issue is not addressed, this is rarely the case, so many give up.

BBA is a devil for many. Do not feel bad, it took me 3 years and no web/internet stuff............Al Gore had not invented it back then:icon_eek:
Not sure if that helped or harmed(the web not Gore).

But once I convinced myself, it's not much of an issue and I know what to do.

I can tell you etc, so can others, but till you convince yourself, it'll be tough going.


----------



## mistergreen

ALright, this is a serious question.. Let me put my serious hat on..

Now the common antidote for BBA, is lots of consistent CO2. Obviously, CO2 does not kill BBA; so it's for the plant's benefit.

What does this imply? The plants are killing off or inhibit the BBA (including our maintenance)?


----------



## sewingalot

mistergreen said:


> What?
> 
> You have corn candy gravel?
> 
> You better not have plastic plants in there.


Not my tank. It's a LFS. Well, an hour away, but still local enough. He was kind enough to let me take a picture and water to tinker with. By his water parameters alone, I think we can definitely rule out excessive nutrients. His water was amazingly clean.



plantbrain said:


> Acceptance is the final stage of algae:redface:
> 
> I cultivate algae specifically:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cladophora is typically a baneful terror for planted aquarist, but the balls and this stuff are well desired here above.
> 
> Very nice moss like tufts.


I must be at the last stage then, lol. OMG, you have a tank with algae that is intentional?!?!? :eek5: I've seen it all. Actually, next to BBA, clado is my second favorite. I have that growing in the tank next to the BBA. 



mistergreen said:


> ALright, this is a serious question.. Let me put my serious hat on..
> 
> Now the common antidote for BBA, is lots of consistent CO2. Obviously, CO2 does not kill BBA; so it's for the plant's benefit.
> 
> What does this imply? The plants are killing off or inhibit the BBA (including our maintenance)?


Sorry, mistergreen. I really don't know the answer to this one. Perhaps someone smarter in this topic can help you out. *cough* Smarter people, where are you? *cough*


----------



## DarkCobra

Plants outcompete algae for nutrients.
Competition cannot exist without limitation.
Excess nutrients do not cause algae.
Nutrients should be dosed so that none are ever limited.

These statements obviously disagree with each other, and cannot simultaneously be true.

Yet they're all true if you add a single loophole. Find it and you win.


----------



## Fahnell

cladophora is a generic genus
the balls are one kind...the hair one that is a killer in tanks is another. do not mistake them. 
plants deal with algae mostly with 2 things
-allelopathy (chemical warfare)
-better nutrient management

anyway in a healthy well filtered tank algae should me minimal. that is a must
the only tank to be with lots of algae si a koi/goldfish or a mbuna tank


----------



## sewingalot

Darkcobra, I give up guessing. My smartest thought was plants. 

Please elaborate on allelopathy and better nutrient management. I am always curious to learn more about algae control.


----------



## shoteh

Interesting posts so far. I'm definitely staying tuned to gain a deeper understanding of our good friend BBA.


----------



## mistergreen

Walstad wrote a section on allelopathy in her book. It sounds interesting but I don't think a lot of people are going to stand up for it because there's no hard proof behind it.

My opinion is somewhere in between. It does play a roll in suppressing algae on the leaves but that's the extent of it, like how algae won't grow on new growth but will grow on old growth.


----------



## Fahnell

imo true aquatic (like elodea) are champions at allelopathy. but a semiaquaitc will have months in open air where is no algae so they are not hat good at that. elodea is proven to do allelopathy.


----------



## plantbrain

mistergreen said:


> ALright, this is a serious question.. Let me put my serious hat on..
> 
> Now the common antidote for BBA, is lots of consistent CO2. Obviously, CO2 does not kill BBA; so it's for the plant's benefit.
> 
> What does this imply? The plants are killing off or inhibit the BBA (including our maintenance)?


Well, why defend a leaf that's in trouble/deficient/hurting?

It is easier for the plant to grow a new one if the conditions are improved, otherwise the plant shuts down.

A nice healthy leaf rarely gets any algae.

I still go in and kill and trim off any BBA that's there, but the new growth is what needs to occur, the older infected leaves are a loss and are no good to the plant really. They are a drain on the plant basically.

Algae spores would rather land on such a leaf vs a healthy fast growing leaf.
The algae would have a MUCH better chance at growing and reproducing there vs a nice healthy leaf.

Why?

The algae would get covered by faster growing new leaves and the fast growing plants will bury the algae. Healthy leaves produce a lot more O2, current is greatly reduced also, which means less CO2/nutrients for the algae.

All in all, not a good spot for new algae spores.
Wood?
Excellent spot.
High current?
Excellent spot, often no plants at those sites.


----------



## plantbrain

Fahnell said:


> imo true aquatic (like elodea) are champions at allelopathy. but a semiaquaitc will have months in open air where is no algae so they are not hat good at that. elodea is proven to do allelopathy.


So if you believe this, then why don't we ever see algae blooms when we add activated carbon(AC) to planted tanks??????????

AC removed these compounds and thus remove the repression of algae growth/germiniation etc.

We have never once seen this however and folks have used AC in planted tanks for well over 20 years extensively, but also lack an algal issues.
*
The evidence is extremely strong against allelopathy in aquariums.*


----------



## plantbrain

DarkCobra said:


> Plants outcompete algae for nutrients.
> Competition cannot exist without limitation.
> Excess nutrients do not cause algae.
> Nutrients should be dosed so that none are ever limited.
> 
> These statements obviously disagree with each other, and cannot simultaneously be true.
> 
> Yet they're all true if you add a single loophole. Find it and you win.


Loophole?

The algae and plants are not even in the same niche, so they really only compete perhaps for light is about all.

But why defend a stressed 1/2 dead leave and try and repair it?
Plants do not do that typically, they just grow new leaves.

Same deal with landscaping plants, you hack them back, they grow new leaves all nice and green etc.

It takes time for algae to form and grow on plant leaves, so if the plant is growing fast enough, it'll bury the algae, reduce the flow of water and cause massive pH changes at the micro algae scale(1-4 pH units easily).

We also prune and remove older leaves, and have algae eaters etc.


----------



## plantbrain

mistergreen said:


> Walstad wrote a section on allelopathy in her book. It sounds interesting but I don't think a lot of people are going to stand up for it because there's no hard proof behind it.
> 
> My opinion is somewhere in between. It does play a roll in suppressing algae on the leaves but that's the extent of it, like how algae won't grow on new growth but will grow on old growth.


I wrote some stats as far as the likelyhood of all 300-400 aquatic plants possessing the same chemical defense that was universal and equal over a wide range of planted aquariums.

That is the observed facts(low/little algae growth when plants are doing, regardless of species, in aquariums as well as in many natural systems).

What are the odds that all 300-400 plant species have the same defense?
The same intensity of this chemical allelopathic defense?

You'd win the super mega lotto easier.

Ole torn this argument up as well.
http://www.bio-web.dk/ole_pedersen/pdf/TAG_2002_15_7.pdf

I'm a bit more experimental, so using things like AC, which is extremely common in planted tanks, has already been done, and no one has noted any relationship between it's use and algae.

Ever.

Now some nutters might suggest that the chemicals are only needed in tiny bitty amounts and are leached out etc and are really effective etc, well, if that really was the case, then we would see a much strong effect between usign the AC or not as well, since dose makes the poison as far allelopathy is concerned. Again. this too fails the basic logic test.

Perhaps the carbon is removing something else that helps the algae and this equals it all out? I cannot rule this out, but I'd say it is a real stretch.

Particularly since the observations also do not support the likelihood of that either much like the 3000-400 species all having a similar impact on algae when growing well.

In natural systems, there's no known relationship in FL lakes of the 300+ surveyed with aquatic plants present and in shallow high relative biomass(like out planted tanks).

Wanna buy some nice fresh snake oil??


----------



## sewingalot

To play the devils advocate here, what is so wrong with snake oil? I read back in 2004 some posts where Azoo Brush Magic worked wonders on BBA. Yet, some were against the idea, said to correct the issue and so on. This is a great thing to practice, but sometimes we just want the quick fix, not the practical one.

People use excel/h202 and inject it on algae and gleefully watch it wither away. If it works, why not use it? Sure you'll have to continue using some of these or see algae return if the parameters aren't corrected. And, yes, this makes the manufacturers happy. But let's think of it this way:

I want a planted tank, but I struggle with algae. I've tried many of the methods out there and found adding _snake oil xtra strong_ fixes my issue. I could continue to try to find the cause or continue using my snake oil and forget about looking for the cause. For some, they are perfectly happy with snake oils.

Both get you to the same destination, but one requires less work, thought. Neither is wrong if it makes the person satisfied with the end results. I think it's great to teach the why and how, but I also think it is important to recognize the value in the easy. I think many people out there quite happily buy the snake oils but are afraid to admit it.

I say if it works for the individual, do it. Just be careful not to say _this will work 100% of the time_. Rather, say this _worked in my experience_. It's up to the reader to decide what works for them.


----------



## DarkCobra

Plantbrain's halfway there. Plants and algae do not fill the same niche. Anyone care to take it the rest of the way and spell out the actual loophole? 



plantbrain said:


> I wrote some stats as far as the likelyhood of all 300-400 aquatic plants possessing the same chemical defense that was universal and equal over a wide range of planted aquariums.


I read this discussion once, and agree it's very unlikely. And have one more point to add which I haven't seen mentioned.

Even if _all_ these plants had somehow managed this, it's even more unlikely that _none_ of them have developed a chemical defense against _other plants_ that might compete for light. This is documented in terrestrial allellopathy, look up the black walnut tree and juglone for an example.

Ever added a plant to find an existing plant on the other side of the tank suddenly dies? I haven't. 

This does not entirely rule out the possibility of low-level allellopathy in some plant species, but it is certainly not a major factor.


----------



## nikonD70s

anyone know the secret recipes to get this kinda of algae? i really like to have it all over the driftwood and rocks. im serious!


----------



## sewingalot

Nikon, pm me your address, and I'll send some substrate with BBA on it. :biggrin: THEN, to get it to grow fast, you'll have to get neglectful with cleaning, leave your lights on too long, turn up the current, turn off the co2 and feed the algae. You'll have so much, you'll be estatic. Actually, if you could fluctuate your co2 that would be ideal.

Dark Cobra, you're killing me here. Somebody else hurry up and guess!!!


----------



## Fahnell

Hello Tom
you say that AC will remove the chemicals emited by elodea correct?yes but in the same time Ac will remove also the trace elements needed by plants and algae to grow. so..elodea loses its allelopathy headstart but also the alage loses its trace elements needed to grow right?a loss loss scenario?

and the scenario without AC?only elodea and a standard filter?





plantbrain said:


> So if you believe this, then why don't we ever see algae blooms when we add activated carbon(AC) to planted tanks??????????
> 
> AC removed these compounds and thus remove the repression of algae growth/germiniation etc.
> 
> We have never once seen this however and folks have used AC in planted tanks for well over 20 years extensively, but also lack an algal issues.
> *
> The evidence is extremely strong against allelopathy in aquariums.*


----------



## plantbrain

That is the other issue, as many aquatic systems tend to be only monocultures very often, it would suggest that allelopathy is more about plant- plant interactions(which.........yawn.......we also do not see/observe in the 300-400 species), not plant - algae interactions as far as chemical defense.

How many species of algae are plants exposed to in FW?

About 2000-4000?

Again, going back to likelihoods?

AC is also a decent control to test the idea.

But it too fails the simple observed facts from aquarist with planted tanks and activated carbon vs not.

Plant-plant competitions occurs strongly in our aquariums and we see it all the time. Little too low on the CO2, one plant does poorly, while others still thrive. One plants needs more CO2, has a different tolerance to lower CO2 than a weedy species.

The same is true for nutrient uptake. Plants also have storage organs and differences in Surface area which relates to uptake and light gathering.

If you have more light and can start fixing CO2 fasting than a neighbor, then you can outcompete them for limiting resources.

However, all we need to do to provide a control for this is add non limiting resources, many do not and blame all these other alternatives without having done good testing to begin with:thumbsdow

Ah, the first few moments of the a new myth being made.
And on and on it goes.


----------



## plantbrain

Fahnell said:


> Hello Tom
> you say that AC will remove the chemicals emited by elodea correct?yes but in the same time Ac will remove also the trace elements needed by plants and algae to grow. so..elodea loses its allelopathy headstart but also the alage loses its trace elements needed to grow right?a loss loss scenario?
> 
> and the scenario without AC?only elodea and a standard filter?


Have you ever does trace elements with AC in a planted tank?
No one has seen any decline in plant growth using them and dosing traces.
They are in fact traces, and plants do not need a lot.

I do not think the loss loss hypothesis has enough support based on the observations. I've seen improved plant growth by adding AC vs not.
So have others.

Many use purigen which is similar to AC.
Few would say these inhibit plant growth based on their observations.

Plants can still access traces via the roots and sediments, so there's another control that could be done to remove that lost to plants, and something like soil or ADA AS is loaded with Fe even years later.

Try again


----------



## houseofcards

mistergreen said:


> ALright, this is a serious question.. Let me put my serious hat on..
> 
> Now the common antidote for BBA, is lots of consistent CO2. Obviously, CO2 does not kill BBA; so it's for the plant's benefit.
> 
> What does this imply? The plants are killing off or inhibit the BBA (including our maintenance)?


That's one of the problems I see on the forum all the time. Most common advice "Best way to get rid of BBA is to increase co2 and keep it consistent." That would rely on enough plants being present to make a difference. I don't think it has anything to do with the plants inhibiting it, it's merely a reduction in the organic content available to the algae, based on increase plant growth. But what happens if you have a thinly planted tank with very little mass. You could gas your fish, but it's not going to get rid of the BBA. The one truth that I have found is that most algae including BBA doesn't like 'clean' water. So yes, AC, water changes, less food, less stock, decrease light is usually enough to retard it. Why choice one, do all of these things.


----------



## sewingalot

houseofcards said:


> That's one of the problems I see on the forum all the time. Most common advice "Best way to get rid of BBA is to increase co2 and keep it consistent." That would rely on enough plants being present to make a difference. I don't think it has anything to do with the plants inhibiting it, it's merely a reduction in the organic content available to the algae, based on increase plant growth. But what happens if you have a thinly planted tank with very little mass. You could gas your fish, but it's not going to get rid of the BBA. The one truth that I have found is that most algae including BBA doesn't like 'clean' water. So yes, AC, water changes, less food, less stock, decrease light is usually enough to retard it. Why choice one, do all of these things.


This is an excellent point. I still think people forget that algae does feed nutrients just as it feeds plants. Yes, excessive nutrients don't cause algae, but they sure as do feed them. Less plants, more food for the algae. I really think healthy plants are better at taking up the nutrients. 

Here's my take on algae. It's like the cockroach. It'll survive conditions plants can't and will wait patiently for the opportunity to take hold. If we get neglectful and don't maintain our planted tanks and the algae spores are already present, you'll see the algae take hold. 

I like to limit some nutrients in the water column because my take is NOT in balance (yeah, I know, lower light would solve everything), but this works for me. But I have to also remember to increase nutrients as plant mass grows or my plants suffer, and start leaching out a buffet for the algae.

By the way, I just started using activated carbon in my tanks again after not using them for years. The plants don't seem to care one way or another, but I've noticed a big improvement in water quality.


----------



## mistergreen

I've read this one Japanese guy's thread on another forum where he deliberately keeps his tank 'dirty' so the wastes feed the algae which in turn feed his algae eaters. It works great for him.

Waste is another word for 'nutrients'... It's obvious the nutrients (macro salts & micros) we put in our tanks don't trigger algae, proven with the EI method where excess nutrients are added. So what are the key chemical(s) found in organic waste that trigger a lot of the algae like BBA, diatoms, etc.. that our salts don't?

NH3? or some other?


----------



## sewingalot

mistergreen said:


> I've read this one Japanese guy's thread on another forum where he deliberately keeps his tank 'dirty' so the wastes feed the algae which in turn feed his algae eaters. It works great for him.
> 
> Waste is another word for 'nutrients'... It's obvious the nutrients (macro salts & micros) we put in our tanks don't trigger algae, proven with the EI method where excess nutrients are added. So what are the key chemical(s) found in organic waste that trigger a lot of the algae like BBA, diatoms, etc.. that our salts don't?
> 
> NH3? or some other?


In my experience, a really clean tank can grow algae faster if needs aren't met. Think of a new aquarium and everyone getting the newer algaes. What do we tell them? You need to let your tank mature. The LFS had amazingly clean gravel, low nutrients in the water column, yet he had tanks full of algae. Some of the 'planted' tanks that he told me didn't have water changes, just top offs had a lot less algae, like 90 percent less. 

Have we truly proven excess nutrients don't trigger algae growth? Take a tank without plants, add a bit of algae and then add some fertilizer, some co2 and lighting. Show me it won't grow. I've been reading a lot on bio-fuel sites and they feed them the same things: nutrients, light, co2. I wonder if the people wanting to grow algae for money will be the ones that will end up discovering answers to our algae woes. 

I think plants are the key, really. To me, algae is more of a primitive organism and can’t compete against the more advanced plants. I think that's also why BBA is more resilent, as it is a more complex algae that most of the green algaes.

I have found a way to suspend/speed up algae growth and I've been able to repeat this time and time again. Yet, I am not going to say this is the cure, and in fact, I have yet to reveal my discovery on this thread or anywhere else in the forum for that matter. Why? Because there is no guarantee that what works for me will work for another. And I'm not going to be blamed for telling everyone wrong, lol. I will tell you it is a combination of a few things, some of which I have shared. Yet, I'll never tell anyone this is the way. I'm smart enough to know it only takes a little bit to make me look like an idiot. roud:

My previous experiment was with GDA. I found out lots of neat things on this algae and still love to induce it when I get bored just to see if I can make it go away again. I'm only doing this stuff because I am bored with growing plants, I have free time on my hands, and I am an insomniac that comes up with 'bright ideas' in the wee hours.

I am surprised more people haven't tried experimenting on algae to find their answers. But then again, this is a place to grow plants, not algae. Maybe I need to join a different forum? :icon_mrgr

Anyway, since this is my thread about BBA, I figured I would do what I do on all my threads and ramble about what I'm thinking at 2 in the morning wishing I were sleeping.


----------



## DarkCobra

mistergreen said:


> Waste is another word for 'nutrients'... It's obvious the nutrients (macro salts & micros) we put in our tanks don't trigger algae, proven with the EI method where excess nutrients are added.


That is the loophole. 

Algae requires the same basic elements (N/P/K) but prefers different forms, in particular those produced by organic decay.



mistergreen said:


> So what are the key chemical(s) found in organic waste that trigger a lot of the algae like BBA, diatoms, etc.. that our salts don't?


This might be considered a strictly academic exercise, as we know how to reduce all of them indirectly and as a whole; naming specific trigger chemicals doesn't directly help us. But here's all I know.

For diatoms, silicon. Probably orthosilicic acid in particular. New substrate often releases a lot of silicate, some of which gets converted to orthosilicic acid. Whenever I shut down a tank, I wash, sterilize, and dry the substrate to be reused later; I have never seen a diatom bloom in a new tank with this reused substrate. It can sometimes be induced by massive overfeeding, though chances are good you'll end up with another algae instead.

For green water and GDA, nitrogen. Inorganic ammonium hydroxide (ammonia gas dissolved in water), like we use for fishless cycling, will not trigger it. Organic ammonia compounds from fish waste and overuse of terrestrial fertilizer will. Exactly which compounds are to blame, I don't know.

For hair, thread, and other similar green algae, phosphorus. Potassium phosphate won't trigger it. Again, I don't know what specific phosphate form(s) are suspect, but I do know that adding enough phosphoric acid to lower the pH by half a point will create a potpourri of various phosphates, and result in a spectacular algae bloom.

BBA is still a mystery to me, I have no idea which type of organic nutrient acts as food/trigger. But it is definitely still an organic nutrient.

GSA I won't even speculate on. And Cladophora might as well be considered a plant, not an algae. 

Every living thing has a preferred nutrient form. And most have significant alternate metabolic pathways for processing nutrients which are not in optimal form, it just takes more energy to do so. For algae, light is energy. Give it enough light and it will thrive even on the inorganic nutrients we add.


----------



## sewingalot

Here are the updated pictures. I am wondering if it's getting enough light and co2 from the time I take it out to take pictures and fill up the water to sustain it. Parts of it look really healthy. :hihi:




























If it doesn't die by next week, I'm naming it Herb and moving it over to a vase.


----------



## Fahnell

hello tom
yes it did do a little experiment with trace and AC and the impact on plants was minimal if at all
and yes allelopathy is not plant vs algae but also plant vs plant.
so we agree that plants do have better storage management than algae but allelopathy is restricted to the outside world for aquatic plants. with respect of what you say is true
But i want to mention one thing. I was talking strictly about elodea ..that plant is not exactly a root monster one (an amazon sword will be another thing),. Elodea extracts most of the nutrienst from the watercolumn. That is why i suspected that AC can have an impact at elodea's trace element uptake
But what i discovered is that my BBA was gone in 4 weeks when i started to filter with an air pump and a big sponge. no externals, no excel/easycarbo, the same light, the same ferts,from time to time some CO2
What is that efficient about that ancient filterning method? 
swingalot had the same experience in a tank. no alge , no problems at all
with just a plain old sponge

cobra...about diatoms. In some regions(i know some in my country) the water has high silica concentrations. in that case only RO can help maybe


----------



## sewingalot

Why do I feel like a ditzy friend that you guys let hang out with you all and just mostly ignore? I feel like I am a small child again in a room full of adults. "Quiet down, dear. Mommy's trying to talk to her adult friends." :hihi:


----------



## DarkCobra

Fahnell said:


> and yes allelopathy is not plant vs algae but also plant vs plant.


Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing, allellopathy is production of chemicals that actively attack other plants/algae. Not competition or removal of nutrients.

If we're in agreement on that, I'm curious what your experiences or references regarding allellopathy are?



Fahnell said:


> cobra...about diatoms. In some regions(i know some in my country) the water has high silica concentrations. in that case only RO can help maybe


Yes. I know a few people who have solved persistent diatom problems by using RO water, or removing particular pieces of slate that seemed to leak an extraordinarily high amount of silicates. Fortunately neither is a problem for me.


----------



## DarkCobra

sewingalot said:


> Why do I feel like a ditzy friend that you guys let hang out with you all and just mostly ignore? I feel like I am a small child again in a room full of adults. "Quiet down, dear. Mommy's trying to talk to her adult friends." :hihi:


Shush you! :hihi:

I think you insidiously instigate discussions like this, and then just pretend to be a ditz to see how other people play it out. I am not fooled!

Oh, and give Herb a hug for me.


----------



## Fahnell

yep cobra. chemical warfare . chemicals used by plants to inhibit other plants/algae

cobra this is for you

http://www.ub.uni-konstanz.de/kops/...rdGross_2006_allelopathy_elodea_Aquat_Bot.pdf



the link is a german study regarding elodea and allelopathy


----------



## sewingalot

I had to look up dem der big werds you jest scribbled thar.  I'll hug him goodnight for you - Herb will like that. 

Oh, wow. I really do sound like a 4 year old going "Mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy!" :hihi: I love discussions on algae. I think some people are too afraid to admit they have issues with algae on this forum for fear of being patronized. It's like having algae is the sin of planted tanks. LOL. I like to think of it as a natural occurrence for many of us and people can even have nice tanks WITH algae present. My goal is not to tell people how to cure algae, but that it is okay to have algae. It doesn't make you a failure. Too many times, I've been told I've failed, not the method. But many don't want to explain why I failed. That's why I like your discussions. You actually help people think of what they might be doing wrong, what might help them and not just give your method as the only way to solve algae problems.


----------



## houseofcards

sewingalot said:


> In my experience, a really clean tank can grow algae faster if needs aren't met. Think of a new aquarium and everyone getting the newer algaes. What do we tell them? You need to let your tank mature. The LFS had amazingly clean gravel, low nutrients in the water column, yet he had tanks full of algae. Some of the 'planted' tanks that he told me didn't have water changes, just top offs had a lot less algae, like 90 percent less.


A new tank is alot different than a mature 'clean' tank. A new tank has no biofilter or a very immature one at best. It simply can't convert the waste and what ends up happening is your get ammonia in the water column. Even the smallest amount triggers algae. That's why it's so common to have algae issues at startup. You need to bridge the biofilter gap, by using AC, Purigen, massive water change, no stock, mulm (help kick bio), etc.

A mature tank has developed it's biofilter both in terms of media and sometime plants, but over time the organic load still builds up even with the best filters and eventually you get the dreaded BBA. All those measures used at startup can still be employed here. Sometimes they aren't need depending on light, stock, plant mass, but they certainly can't hurt. 

And again, let's face it, people are people, can most honestly say they do all those things are startup, probably not. I've never seen a clean tank have more algae issues as long as your dosing inorganics back in.


----------



## plantbrain

DarkCobra said:


> Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing, allellopathy is production of chemicals that actively attack other plants/algae. Not competition or removal of nutrients.
> 
> If we're in agreement on that, I'm curious what your experiences or references regarding allellopathy are?


Heck, I wanna know what their controls in their methods are.
If someone does not agree that this part is not extremely difficult, they are not being honest and do not understand the problem with the test to begin with.

I spoke with Diana about this in Australia when we took a train out to the Blue Mountains. I do not think she stated nearly as strongly, but suggested it might be a potential reason. Which brought up an interesting test and idea.
That was long ago however(1998 published date).

Folks misinterpreting the writing/intent seems to have promoted myths.
As is often the case, many do not read the rest of the story or the qualifiers.
They read the part that suits, rather than a comparative analysis.


----------



## plantbrain

Fahnell said:


> But i want to mention one thing. I was talking strictly about elodea ..that plant is not exactly a root monster one (an amazon sword will be another thing),. Elodea extracts most of the nutrienst from the watercolumn. That is why i suspected that AC can have an impact at elodea's trace element uptake


Few grow Elodea and the conspecifics in the hobby.
Maybe some in Europe, but not many other places grow it.
Pond/Goldfish folks perhaps.

It grows in ultra pure sierra snow melt, irrigation canals here in CA, there's next to nothing in the water, but the sediments seem to be rich and may supply them, they do grow well.

In unidirectional flowing systems, allelopathy plays no role in the water column, it simply gets washed away immediately. Atlas, in terrestrial alellopathy studies, the roots, not the leaves are the source, (perhaps the leaf litter or subsequent decomposition)



> But what i discovered is that my BBA was gone in 4 weeks when i started to filter with an air pump and a big sponge. no externals, no excel/easycarbo, the same light, the same ferts,from time to time some CO2
> What is that efficient about that ancient filterning method?
> swingalot had the same experience in a tank. no alge , no problems at all
> with just a plain old sponge
> 
> cobra...about diatoms. In some regions(i know some in my country) the water has high silica concentrations. in that case only RO can help maybe


Hard to say what changes you made, but there are quite a few. It does not state nor prove anything FYI. We have plenty of places with high Si, most tap in fact. I'd also bet that everyone has them(myself, _everyone_) , but not to the point that they can see them with the naked eye, or in a bloom stage(rarely an issue after 2-4 weeks).

Maybe the change in CO2, going from one filter to another, maybe that affected CO2, maybe you got the CO2 right this time because you were trying to fix things, maybe all the messing with the tank caused problems, there are many things and no controls in place.

Now, try this; induce BBA.
Confirm what you think is really causing it.

I've done this many times.
CO2 is about the only single variable in an otherwise stable tank that seems to be able to do it. Nutrients can be all over, light, etc........newer tanks will always be more susceptible, but once estblished and growing well, those tanks are no issue.

Still this paper you cited and every other does not support the observed facts in most aquarist tanks. We would also expect to see plant-plant competitions, which is simply not the case, name any pair and I'll disprove it. 
Large significant players control algae presence and this ain't one of them. All the extracts are easily remove with activated carbon.


----------



## DarkCobra

Fahnell said:


> cobra this is for you
> 
> http://www.ub.uni-konstanz.de/kops/...rdGross_2006_allelopathy_elodea_Aquat_Bot.pdf
> 
> the link is a german study regarding elodea and allelopathy


Thanks! Spent some time reading that.

To sum up the paper in plain English:

Extracts were taken from Elodea (aka anacharis).
They were found to have multiple substances having varying degrees of effectiveness against cyanobacteria (BGA) and Chlorella (green water).
Concentration and effectiveness is probably enough to prevent growth of these algae directly on the plant.
Some of these substances were also found to be released into the water surrounding the plant, which may also suppress these algae in the nearby environment as well; but they speculated it would take a lot of Elodea for this to be likely.

This is what I earlier referred to as low-level allellopathy, one that prevents algae from growing directly on the plant.

If plants are healthy, algae will not only stop growing on the plants, but on the glass, rocks, driftwood, substrate, etc. And that occurs with all plants, requiring only health and sufficient growth rate, not a particular species. So I still don't think allellopathy can account for that, and it's not a major factor in the average aquarium.

I'm going to sit with Sewingalot now and make macaroni art. Apparently reading that paper did a job on my brain. I had a dream I started a tank journal, and someone quoted my post, pointing out a typo: "This tank is full of unclean." :hihi:


----------



## sewingalot

DarkCobra said:


> I'm going to sit with Sewingalot now and make macaroni art. Apparently reading that paper did a job on my brain. I had a dream I started a tank journal, and someone quoted my post, pointing out a typo: "This tank is full of unclean." :hihi:


Burned in my own thread. Cold, Cobra. :biggrin:


----------



## plantbrain

Elodea also has leaves that are only 2 cells thick, they have massive pH differences and do indirect bicarb CO2 uptake, release a lot of O2 as well, this alone can provide a poor location for algae recruitment.

It is also among the fastest growing family in the aquatic plant world.
Under rapid non limiting growth, algae is not an issue, when the growth slows and stops, then we see algae form. This is true for seasonal variation in lakes.

In real systems, they did not demonstrate it has a significant effect, certainly not in aquariums.


----------



## mistergreen

plantbrain said:


> It is also among the fastest growing family in the aquatic plant world.
> Under rapid non limiting growth, algae is not an issue, when the growth slows and stops, then we see algae form. This is true for seasonal variation in lakes.
> 
> In real systems, they did not demonstrate it has a significant effect, certainly not in aquariums.


This is true. In a local lake here that was infested with elodea, I saw the whole batch of elodea covered in brown algae and other gunk algae. They look like stalagmites. I guess the growing season was over or the lake ran out of nutrients for it.


----------



## DarkCobra

A friend of mine, when he heard that I was into planted aquariums, told me to come by and he'd hook me up with all the Elodea I could handle.

Turned out he had an outdoor plastic koi pond. It was packed with Elodea, thread algae, and minnows. I declined.


----------



## Fahnell

Thx Tom for the interesting answer
I did the BBA thing. put an anubias with BBA in a NON CO2 tank with big sponge. Is is dead now. In 4 days. The tank is in my workplace
I must admit...every tank is different. even if you try to mimic the same setup. For now i am happy that i got rid of it and other algae 





plantbrain said:


> Few grow Elodea and the conspecifics in the hobby.
> Maybe some in Europe, but not many other places grow it.
> Pond/Goldfish folks perhaps.
> 
> It grows in ultra pure sierra snow melt, irrigation canals here in CA, there's next to nothing in the water, but the sediments seem to be rich and may supply them, they do grow well.
> 
> In unidirectional flowing systems, allelopathy plays no role in the water column, it simply gets washed away immediately. Atlas, in terrestrial alellopathy studies, the roots, not the leaves are the source, (perhaps the leaf litter or subsequent decomposition)
> 
> 
> 
> Hard to say what changes you made, but there are quite a few. It does not state nor prove anything FYI. We have plenty of places with high Si, most tap in fact. I'd also bet that everyone has them(myself, _everyone_) , but not to the point that they can see them with the naked eye, or in a bloom stage(rarely an issue after 2-4 weeks).
> 
> Maybe the change in CO2, going from one filter to another, maybe that affected CO2, maybe you got the CO2 right this time because you were trying to fix things, maybe all the messing with the tank caused problems, there are many things and no controls in place.
> 
> Now, try this; induce BBA.
> Confirm what you think is really causing it.
> 
> I've done this many times.
> CO2 is about the only single variable in an otherwise stable tank that seems to be able to do it. Nutrients can be all over, light, etc........newer tanks will always be more susceptible, but once estblished and growing well, those tanks are no issue.
> 
> Still this paper you cited and every other does not support the observed facts in most aquarist tanks. We would also expect to see plant-plant competitions, which is simply not the case, name any pair and I'll disprove it.
> Large significant players control algae presence and this ain't one of them. All the extracts are easily remove with activated carbon.


----------



## Fahnell

Yep noted that. That white deposit on the Elodea leaves. Calcium i suppose?
So it is more the rapid growth of elodea than it allelopathy that inhibits the algae?
Tom i suppose also that Excel kills elodea for exactly that 2 cell thick wall?
Also. PH differnces..meaning a lower PH near Elodea leaves?



plantbrain said:


> Elodea also has leaves that are only 2 cells thick, they have massive pH differences and do indirect bicarb CO2 uptake, release a lot of O2 as well, this alone can provide a poor location for algae recruitment.
> 
> It is also among the fastest growing family in the aquatic plant world.
> Under rapid non limiting growth, algae is not an issue, when the growth slows and stops, then we see algae form. This is true for seasonal variation in lakes.
> 
> In real systems, they did not demonstrate it has a significant effect, certainly not in aquariums.


----------



## plantbrain

mistergreen said:


> This is true. In a local lake here that was infested with elodea, I saw the whole batch of elodea covered in brown algae and other gunk algae. They look like stalagmites. I guess the growing season was over or the lake ran out of nutrients for it.


Generally the nutrients run out, some say light, but we use reduced light durations as well and it has little effect.

So when the plants go to pot......or have not established yet.......


----------



## plantbrain

Fahnell said:


> Thx Tom for the interesting answer
> I did the BBA thing. put an anubias with BBA in a NON CO2 tank with big sponge. Is is dead now. In 4 days. The tank is in my workplace
> I must admit...every tank is different. even if you try to mimic the same setup. For now i am happy that i got rid of it and other algae


So why do you think the BBA died?

Stable low CO2.

In the CO2 moves around or is higher, and there is good current, then it seems to flourish. I have non CO2 planted tanks and never get BBA.

Others do, but often they have other issues and a poor set up for the non CO2 method. Plenty of folks using CO2 also fall into this same group.


----------



## plantbrain

Fahnell said:


> Yep noted that. That white deposit on the Elodea leaves. Calcium i suppose?
> So it is more the rapid growth of elodea than it allelopathy that inhibits the algae?
> Tom i suppose also that Excel kills elodea for exactly that 2 cell thick wall?
> Also. PH differnces..meaning a lower PH near Elodea leaves?


The pH on the top of the leaf, the adaxial side, is often 8 or higher during the light phase. the low side can reach down into the 4's.

Both are hostile places for algae.
Many still exist, mostly diatoms.

I'd say rapid growth of the weed, as long as the nutrients/carbon and light needs are met, it will not stop.

We do see plenty of algae once the nutrients run out etc late in the season when the weed has completely fills shallow lakes etc and choked itself. Basically ate it self out of house and home.

Same deal occurs in Marine refugiums with Caulperas, they do not prune it back routinely and then it crashes and melts. Then the noxious algae appear.

Same thing here.

So there you have a MASSIVE Biomass of elodea and you get tons of algae.
So much for that allelopathic hypothesis.

There's yet another nail in the coffin.
That's 4-5 lines of very strong rational, logic, experimentation and observation of natural systems that raises strong questions to the action of allelopathic chemicals, one would expect to see the highest degree of it when the highest biomass is achieved, we do not see that in our aquariums as well, if you allow the tank to get really over grown, you will also start to get algae.


----------



## Fahnell

agree with you Tom
but in a low CO2 constant setup with not that much current and a high mass of Elodea?Can also be algae in that setup too?
Anyway seems that is a lot easier to have a low tech tank without algae than a high tech one. If you go high tech you must pay atention to 8-10 parameters at last (P,K,Fe,ph,co2,no3,no2,temperature...). And any imbalance can and will cause algae ? 
And regarding to elodea seems that the 0 algae on the leaves is more like from the Ph variation than from the chemicals produced by the plant


----------



## sewingalot

plantbrain said:


> So why do you think the BBA died?
> 
> Stable low CO2.
> 
> In the CO2 moves around or is higher, and there is good current, then it seems to flourish. I have non CO2 planted tanks and never get BBA.
> 
> Others do, but often they have other issues and a poor set up for the non CO2 method. Plenty of folks using CO2 also fall into this same group.


Doesn't this kind of go against what you've been saying about co2 or I am reading this all wrong (which is very possible)? 
I'm so confused. :help:



plantbrain said:


> For mild cases, it can work.
> For more pervasive hair algae, no way
> But some tweaking of the CO2 will generally address most issues with algae, that or reducing the light intensity and/or period.
> 
> Again, patience is the key with slow methodical adjustment of CO2.
> Many are too impatient.
> 
> So they gas their fish or.....they have algae.


Anyway, I'll leave the discussions up to you all and continue updating with my posts. Feel free to continue to skip over me, I just like the conversations on algae in general. 

Here's the update:

Herb was almost completely dead this time. What wasn't completely brown was mushy to the touch and there was a nasty protein like film on top of the water. I did find a small piece that seemed to have some life left. So, I decided to rinse it off and unite him with my _nano tank_ of BBA. 

The BBA driftwood is doing quite excellent with zero co2, no heat, zero filtration, ambient lighting and just tank water top offs. Flame moss is doing exceptionally well! Baby BBA is now popping up all over the driftwood. I'm going to start feeding it nutrients outside of the tank water to see what happens. Maybe I'll just add in some phosphates and see if it does any harm. Why not? :redface:



















I must apologize for the darkness of the pictures. Apparently, the last time the camera was used it somehow got knocked under a chair in our house and parts of it were crushed by the reclining mechanism. It still takes pictures, but the buttons are stuck in an unflattering mode. :icon_sad: My guy is going to call the company and see if we can get a case for it. 

I must say, this camera is pretty tough, since it still functions perfectly with the case removed. Go figure.


----------



## plantbrain

Fahnell said:


> agree with you Tom
> but in a low CO2 constant setup with not that much current and a high mass of Elodea?Can also be algae in that setup too?
> Anyway seems that is a lot easier to have a low tech tank without algae than a high tech one. If you go high tech you must pay atention to 8-10 parameters at last (P,K,Fe,ph,co2,no3,no2,temperature...). And any imbalance can and will cause algae ?
> And regarding to elodea seems that the 0 algae on the leaves is more like from the Ph variation than from the chemicals produced by the plant



Yes, it will depend on the biomass and an initial break in period/adaptation.
There is less of this when you add more/denser plant biomass initially, same is true for a Farmer and crops vs weeds, lots of crops will easily break up on the weeds, but during the break in period, weeds are able to get a foothold typically.

I fully agree with you about low tech non cO2 tanks being less algae problems and headaches. But many see pretty pics and nice scapes of CO2 enriched systems, and few of the non cO2 examples.

And many are impatient, they like the drug of CO2 gas:tongue:

I like and use both methods and see the benefits of each and the trade offs of each. This way I can help folks with many goals and am not in danger of being a one trick pony or bias one way or the other.

All species in the Hydrocharitaceae family are bad mofro's.
They grow at incredible speed, uptake is extreme, they are highly competitive with other plant species.

I see no reason why they would defend any leaves when they can simply grow new ones rapidly. They have long lived propagules in the sediments, and turions, as well as autofragmentation etc. They got every advantage and very few disadvantages. Hydrilla is called the perfect weed for many good reasons. It has no less than 5 different types of viable propagules other than seed alone.

Tough stuff, if there are good habitat for it, algae does not have much chance except during the start up and die down phase.
But algal life histories are radically different than plants, they can be a few days, weeks etc, whereas a plant might be years. Very different time scales.


----------



## plantbrain

sewingalot said:


> Doesn't this kind of go against what you've been saying about co2 or I am reading this all wrong (which is very possible)?
> I'm so confused. :help:


Yes, I know what you are saying and the answer is stability of CO2, less than high or low.

I wrestled with this to explain why BBA was not common in many non CO2 planted tanks, but common for CO2 gas users. It was more to do with the carbon status for the plants perhaps(we still do not know)??

Or was unstable CO2 the inducement for BBA?

Or was there some range that was good for BBA spores to form and germinate?

I think it is some of all 3.

BBA grows well in natural systems where the current is high and the CO2 is about 10ppm(see Robert Sheath's text FW algae of NA for more and a reference). 

We can make CO2 unstable at say 40-80ppm a difference of 2X.
We can also make CO2 10ppm to 20ppm over a day cycle with very different results. Which will induce BBA do you predict and which will not likely induce it?

So the concentration and the stability seem to both be an issue when it gets down in the middle ranges, above non limiting for plants etc, this matters less, high cO2 means decay and other issues in natural systems, so too much loading, bad time to germinate and grow. 10ppm might mean some decay and plenty of nutrients still, but not too much for BBA and other algae.

At low levels of CO2, say 3ppm or under, the plants have adapted and have high affinity uptake enzymes to nab any scare CO2 around, this low CO2 levels might tell algae spores that "someone else is there", and when combined with high O2 levels, is a bad time to grow.

Why risk being covered by plants, not being able to release propagules, spores etc when they can wait till the next cycle opening? Enforced dormancy.

Plants lack this issue since they are all clonal development in our tanks.
A huge difference between algae and plants in aquariums.



> The BBA driftwood is doing quite excellent with zero co2, no heat, zero filtration, ambient lighting and just tank water top offs. Flame moss is doing exceptionally well! Baby BBA is now popping up all over the driftwood. I'm going to start feeding it nutrients outside of the tank water to see what happens. Maybe I'll just add in some phosphates and see if it does any harm. Why not? :redface:


We tried to starve BBA with no dosing any NO3 and then tried no PO4 for several months with some on a rock, it laughed at us. We used RO and then added the rest back to be sure, but the few fish we had also added plenty for the algae we speculated.

If you remove the BBA that is there in the non CO2 tank, perhaps even adding Excel for 2 months etc, then it likely will not come back.

Once it has a go, it must try hard to compete it's life cycle. It has already committed itself to growing and germinating. So it will try hard, and germinate again in hopes of the new spores findign a better place to complete itself life cycle. Trimming off BBA is no fun, but it can knock it back pretty good if the origianl issue was corrected, which is CO2 bobbing in that lower range. 

So what happens if the CO2 bobs between say 20-35ppm?
In many cases, green algae, hair, GDA etc, you are getting closer to optimal plant conditions. 

I have Caldophora growing nicely in my non CO2 tank though, so it will grow slowly, but does still grow even at lower levels. There is not a lot of plants submersed though, so little CO2 draw. Just the algae here and there.


----------



## sewingalot

plantbrain said:


> Yes, I know what you are saying and the answer is stability of CO2, less than high or low.


I made that conclusion in the beginning of my experimenting. :smile:



sewingalot said:


> Yes, but then I wouldn't have a fun little experiment. :biggrin:
> 
> 
> 
> _*I am thinking it is a combination of fluctuating co2* _(not necessarily low) and organics. After my solenoid blew, I've been running co2 at about 1.6 BPS 24/7 and the BBA is dying slowly. And this is with 54 x 4 t5ho on a 55 gallon. I've also noticed when I let the filters get dirty or I overfeed, both the BBA and snail population increases.





plantbrain said:


> If you remove the BBA that is there in the non CO2 tank, perhaps even adding Excel for 2 months etc, then it likely will not come back.


But aren't we _really just __removing/killing the BBA _and not actually fixing the problem with co2? We should all know by now that excel is used a lot by the hobbyist to kill algae more than people care to admit to. This is the one acceptable 'snake oil.' Why not use H2O2 instead? 

Why not disinfect the plants and quarantine the fish to begin with and prevent it's introduction all together? That's my point. Co2 or lack of co2 isn't really the answer to getting rid of BBA as so much is removing it, killing it or better yet - preventing it from entering the tank in the first place.

To grow algae, you need algae to begin with.


----------



## DarkCobra

Sewingalot, I love this post. 



sewingalot said:


> But aren't we _really just __removing/killing the BBA _and not actually fixing the problem with co2? We should all know by now that excel is used a lot by the hobbyist to kill algae more than people care to admit to. This is the one acceptable 'snake oil.' Why not use H2O2 instead?


Snake oil is _correctly_ defined as a derogatory term for something that is claimed to work, but really doesn't.

In regards to algae treatment, it is often misused on this forum to express a personal agenda - that it's ok to use something that kills algae, but only if it also directly benefits plants.

So CO2 and Excel? Not snake oil.

H2O2? Not snake oil, but still often frowned on compared to other treatments.

Other algaecides? Always snake oil, even if it works.



sewingalot said:


> Why not disinfect the plants and quarantine the fish to begin with and prevent it's introduction all together? That's my point. Co2 or lack of co2 isn't really the answer to getting rid of BBA as so much is removing it, killing it or better yet - preventing it from entering the tank in the first place.


Plantbrain's posted some of his tanks. They're neat, manicured, and open; looks a lot like Amano's stuff. I just took a picture of one of mine to compare with:










Welcome to the _jungle_, baby! And this is how I like this tank. 

But I didn't post this just to show off. Look carefully at it.

High light. Low circulation zones all over the place. You can't tell from the picture, but there are about 100 guppies in this 10G, ranging from week-old fry to young adults. Temperature is elevated to speed up their growth, which reduces CO2 and oxygen. They eat two or three times a day, and consume as much food per feeding as all the inhabitants of my fully stocked 46G. All powered by a single 2L DIY bottle, with an airstone at night, so the CO2 is not exactly stable.

And if you zoom in to full size, you might be able to spot some really bad looking old growth on the Bacopa and Wisteria. Recently, life intervened as it has a way of doing, and I mostly forgot to dose, and let the CO2 run completely out for a week. Oops!

But there is no algae.

The drop checker says my CO2 is adequate, but it's in a freely-flowing part of my tank. Can adequate CO2 and other nutrients reach every single part of this tank?

Heck no, short of adding so much flow that my tank resembles river rapids. There are dozens of little nooks and corners where algae could easily flourish, regardless of the _average_ tank parameters.

This is an extreme example, but most tanks have at least a few spots where algae can maintain a foothold, and strike out into other areas given the opportunity; whether it's because of low flow, proximity to lights, poor choices in driftwood, or a filter pouring out a stream of rotting organics. Some of these spots cannot be eliminated by any practical means short of dramatically altering the scape and setup, which is not always a satisfactory solution.

So why has this tank never had an algae outbreak? One reason is that I never put any algae in.

Almost every plant in here came from my other tanks. Most algae in those tanks has long ago perished from a combination of good water parameters, and direct attacks. The only ones that remain are GSA and GDA, which I don't think can ever be truly made extinct. They'll pay a visit if I slip on maintaining proper nutrients, but are just as easily sent packing.

The Christmas moss is a notable exception, which I put straight in from a mail-order source. When it became apparent it had an invasive Clado infestation, I didn't fool around. It was immediately taken out, and got an experimental three-day treatment with snake oil. Erm, AlgaeFix that is.  Was pleased to find it easily killed the algae, but didn't burn the plant like most dip chemicals can. Algaecides have their place, even if it's outside the tank. I plan to experiment more with this technique, if I ever get any more victims to test it on. 



sewingalot said:


> To grow algae, you need algae to begin with.


I agree wholeheartedly, and have one more experience to relate.

My 25G high developed green water shortly after setup. These things can happen in a new tank, so I waited for it to pass.

It did not.

Tests showed no identifiable cause. Tank parameters were nothing out of the ordinary. Every parameter was experimentally changed regardless, and had no effect.

Massive water changes, H2O2, blackouts, etc. were temporary solutions. The green water always came back.

After a _year_ of fighting with this, I'd had quite enough of this eyesore. I bought a Magnum 350 and set it up for diatom filtration. It worked beautifully as long as it was in place, but the greenwater always returned if I shut it off, even after two weeks of continuous diatom filtration. Since the filter required time-consuming maintenance every few days in this mode, this was not a long-term solution.

Out of desperation, I tried AlgaeFix. This was my first experience with any algaecide, because I'd been told they were bad. Well, it was. I lost some fish. I threw it in a storage bin and intended never to use it again, until I discovered its potential for safe use as a dip as described above.

But the greenwater was finally gone for good. It's been several years now and it has not returned.

The initial greenwater bloom was probably caused by transient poor water conditions in a new tank. But after that? I can only conclude it was the algae itself that was modifying its environment enough to persist for a year. Killing the algae broke the cycle. Though this tank has almost certainly been re-seeded with the same algae from other tanks, it cannot re-establish itself because there is just not enough of it to modify the environment. Algae causes algae.


----------



## fitness2go

What is organic removal media?



houseofcards said:


> I think organic load is at the core. If you raise co2 levels to fight BBA what are you really doing? Aren't you fueling the plants to increase their uptake of the organics. That's why when you have healthy growing plants you usually don't have algae problems, but sometimes it's not enough thus the water change, organic removal media, less food, less stock, etc, etc, etc.


----------



## fitness2go

So I understand that you need the right balance of a lot of things to keep BBA at bay, but what is the best way to get rid of it before striking that balance?


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## barbarossa4122

Hi,

This is my wife's 10g tank with absolutely no algae. I dose EI using RM ferts for this tank. Pressurized co2 8hrs/day with the lights on. The light is a Catalina 24w t5ho about 12" above the tank. I have no clue why this tank doesn't get any type of algae.........maybe I am just lucky b/c I am not that long into this hobby to claim that I know what I am doing.


----------



## sewingalot

Cobra, I couldn't have said it better if I tried. You said exactly what I've been getting at. Higher light doesn't cause algae any more than co2 or excessive nutrients causes algae. You have to introduce it first. :thumbsup: Oh, and I am glad someone else picked up on the misuse of the word 'snake oil' on this forum. It's almost like there are only certain ways of thinking that are considered acceptable in this hobby.

By the way, nice aquarium!

Fitness, there is a fantastic sticky on the top of this forum about BBA and excel. People use metricide as a cheap form of excel, but I haven't used it. Over_stocked has been using metricide for quite a while now and if you shoot him a pm, I am sure he'd be happy to explain more about it in comparison. There are threads on it if you do a little digging.

I have personally used treatments outside of the tank like potassium permanganate, hydrogen peroxide (why isn't this called dioxide?) and bleach successfully in treating algaes, diseases. Some are harmful to fish and humans if not used appropriately, so please research before using!

Barbarossa, I am really happy that you found a balance for your tank. It is quite lovely. If you find something that works for you, use it. That's always been my advice. Two out of the four tanks I have current have no _visible_ algae. I could share them with you all, but they are rather boring to me to talk about. Wait, I take that back. I have a marimo ball in one of these tanks, so technically...it has algae.

Recently, I may have lost site of what this thread is about for me. I like algae. I am observing it while changing one variable at a time just for the nerdy fun of it. I could go into ever single aspect of the test, such as the amount of water I pour into the jar, what is in that water, how many hours of daylight is currently shinning in windows from x number of feet from the jar, how long the room lights are used each day in an average week, etc. I could tell you all the classes I took in colleges that showed me how to perform a hypothesis and how to keep all things constant while only introducing one variable at a time. And I could tell you how to become an acceptable theory, others need the ability to repeat your tests and get the same results over and over. I could measure, weigh the algae, take pictures and record, record, record data.

I am only doing this to pass my time and take my mind off some of the daily struggles we all face in reality. So please remember, I am not condoning my methods and highly suggest that if you are looking for answers about your algae, talk to the experts. In fact, I encourage you to start a new thread or join one of the many others out there that are asking for help on the same subject. 

At this point in my hobby life, I am experimenting, questioning the whys and researching. I did the same thing with my sewing. In the beginning, I followed the directions given to me and was afraid to deviate. It wasn't until I started to trust in my self and experiment that I was able to create these (yes, I know they aren't aquarium related):

















Some will look at these and see the points that aren't perfectly aligned, there are different patterns created throughout one quilt, the squares aren't square, the circles are circular enough. What I see is fact I was able to accept some principles, reject others and make up some on my own. And they are in fact still what they are supposed to be: blankets. That's what I am doing at this point in my planted tank hobby.

My point of this is don't be afraid to do your own thing in this or any hobby. If it makes you happy at the end of the day, that's all that really matters.


----------



## barbarossa4122

Thanks sewingalot.


----------



## plantbrain

Pithophora, Cladophora, BBA(I guess).
GSA etc, these all have attributes which can be nice, likewise, plants might seem like weeds depending.

Pithophora is a really pretty bright green fur.

http://forum.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/showthread.php?t=33674&page=2

And GSA can make a nice patina on rock and wood.

Cladophora can be used like moss and liverworts.
BBA can give fur to rocks and is long lasting and of little maintenance. Plecos often will avoid BBA.

Here's some weird stuff from natural systems, a touch leatherry thing from a stream near Lake Tahoe:










You can see some crow's foot and then some E canadenisis. But covering all the rocks is a neat dime sized dark green alga, about the thickness of a nickel, covering most of the rocks.

This is very pure clean water, but is loaded with plants and algae.
High light. Good CO2.


----------



## sewingalot

barbarossa4122 said:


> Thanks sewingalot.


You're welcome.

Before I forget, I'm done with the weekly updates on my BBA thread. I'm going to do some longer term experiments and I'll report back with photos and observations if I find anything interesting or someone asks me for a status report. As of now, I think I have shown that BBA can live in the dark with no co2 for quite a while, I'll report back in a month to share with you all if it is still living. After that, I may just have to add some snails to make it into a little aquarium.


----------



## sewingalot

Okay, I know what I said about not updating anytime soon, but I have some tragic news. Herb didn't make it. If you look at the white tuft in the lower right hand corner of the picture below, that's him.  So, now he is going to become food for the other BBA and moss in the tank.

On the plus side, the BBA was pearling? The window is a good four feet away to the right, and he is kept in a nook that is shaded from direct light of any kind. Go figure. So my next step is to feed him nutrients. Not a lot, but I will keep track of the amounts and post back any findings. 










I'll spare you all about all the neat things I've been finding on algae. I am seriously going to see if I can talk my husband into buying me a microscope for our anniversary. I'd love to compare them up close and personal to find out the actual names I am looking at. For instance, this looks like this under a magnifying glass, but it would be cool to know for sure. Just possibly being a Rhodophyta excites me because their reproductive cycle is so unique!


----------



## nonconductive

RIP Herb, you died for a great cause.


----------



## plantbrain

sewingalot said:


> Okay, I know what I said about not updating anytime soon, but I have some tragic news. Herb didn't make it. If you look at the white tuft in the lower right hand corner of the picture below, that's him.  So, now he is going to become food for the other BBA and moss in the tank.
> 
> On the plus side, the BBA was pearling? The window is a good four feet away to the right, and he is kept in a nook that is shaded from direct light of any kind. Go figure. So my next step is to feed him nutrients. Not a lot, but I will keep track of the amounts and post back any findings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll spare you all about all the neat things I've been finding on algae. I am seriously going to see if I can talk my husband into buying me a microscope for our anniversary. I'd love to compare them up close and personal to find out the actual names I am looking at. For instance, this looks like this under a magnifying glass, but it would be cool to know for sure. Just possibly being a Rhodophyta excites me because their reproductive cycle is so unique!


A good text will help with ID and ecology also.

Sheath's Freshwater Algae of North America is a good one, but a little pricey.

When you use the scope, spend some time watching the algae and the sporulation, this can take some time. The digital screens are really nice so you can watch or hook a CCD to the scope and then view on the computer screen etc.


----------



## sewingalot

Thanks for the good advice. I'll see if the local library can get that book through inter-library loans. If not, I'll see if I can get by with this: http://www.ohio.edu/plantbio/vislab/algaeimage/imageindex.htm My brother actually has a smaller scope that hooks up to the computer, I wonder if it he will let me borrow it. Time to get off the computer and ask.


----------



## mistergreen

Hey Sara,
You can spend $30-$40 on a microscope from toys r us. Work fine for me. It can do 600x-900x which is pretty good for a toy.


----------



## sewingalot

Thanks Mistergreen. If my brother won't let me use his, I'll start dropping pictures on my husband's chair.


----------



## kcrossley

About eight weeks ago I nuked my tank and started over because of bad BBA outbreak. The ONLY change I made to my setup was to reintroduce charcoal in the filtration system. Ever since I added the charcoal, I haven't had any issues with BBA. I do have plenty of healthy green algae, which my shrimp and snails love.

Is this simply a coincidence?


----------



## Karackle

*disclaimer* I just found this thread so I apologize if I repeat and/or ramble and/or my thoughts seem disjointed, there's a lot of info here  

First, I am VERY interested in your experiments Sara! I love your BBA branch, and I LOVE that the flame moss is still chugging away! I also like BBA, as long as it's not overtaking the tank and killing the new and healthy leaves on plants, I don't mind it at all, I agree it looks nice swaying in the current! It also looks so fluffy! :hihi: I actually don't mind algae at all, again, as long as it's not killing my plants or bothering my fish, I actually like it because it gives the tank a more natural look. But that's also how I prefer my tanks, natural looking. Other folks prefer zero algae in order to better display their aquatic sculptures and that's what they prefer and that's ok too. 

But that's off the topic of this thread: BBA experiments!  I'm excited to see how the BBA grows for a while, I think it would be cool to see shrimp walking around in it! :hihi: In all honesty, I think it's actually a great idea for people who want SUPER low maintenance, small, desk tanks at their office or something.....an algae tank! totally cool. 

Again, I know how to get rid of BBA is not the topic of this thread (as Sara has made it abundantly clear she isn't trying to get rid of the algae because she likes it ), but I think the dark cupboard experiment was a good one, I think we can safely say a 3 day blackout isn't working because of the darkness to get rid of BBA if, indeed, it is working at all. Once again, intriguing. 

And I agree, you have to have algae to get algae, there is no such thing as spontaneous generation, the algae comes from somewhere...whether it's spores or the tiniest single hair you didn't kill off or whatever.....it does not miraculously appear out of nothing  

I know this is off topic too, but I wanted to quickly mention, as far as allelopathy is concerned (and again I apologize if this is a repeat) but I imagine it's hard to put a finger on exactly whether this is happening or not and to what extent because the plants in this hobby have been around long enough that the allelopaths have probably been "weeded out" (excuse the accidental pun) as far as they relate to other aquatic plants, and natural selection has probably caused us planted tank keepers to _inadvertently_ "cultivate" algae strains that are resistant to plants that are allelopathic towards them. OR it could be, as someone else suggested, that the plants only secrete the algaecidal toxins if the algae is trying to take up residence on the leaf, hence, new leaves don't acquire algae. But it's not worth the effort for the plant to create and excrete those compounds on the older leaves, hence, the algae can root.* I DON'T KNOW * if any of that is true, i'm just suggesting possible reasons as to why the allelopathy theory has been hard to prove one way or another. 

Another possible reason for it being so darn hard to get rid of algae could be that there could be some mutual symbiosis that we aren't understanding too, some way the algae and plants benefit each other. I can't think of a way to test for that though at the moment or I'd suggest another experiment for you Sara  

OH! i almost forgot to mention I find it interesting that Herb didn't lose his color until he was put back into the light..... most intriguing.....


----------



## Karackle

One more thing, I LOVE your quilts Sara!!! they're beautiful!!!! Sewingalot is the perfect handle for you!  :hihi:


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## sewingalot

*Magnified 150 times!!*

This whole allelopathy conversation you guys are talking about is going OVER my head. 

Kara, glad to see you've joined the conversation, sorry I am just now reading it. Life has been very busy and I've been ignoring my tanks and experiments overall. :icon_redf 

Here is some up close pictures of our friend. The brownish ones is the recently departed Herb. Unfortunately, this is not a great microscope, and only goes up to 150 times, so I am scrimping money to get one that takes pictures. My husband can get one ordered from a vendor at the school, so I'll get a pretty good price. Only problem is getting money together in a timely manner. Don't look for this to happen in the near future. 

Onto the pictures!

Just a simple close up









Kind of looks like a cross between hair and wood. Loving this picture









Herb









I am almost certain there are three types of algae in this picture of Herb. Maybe that is why there is no great answer to algae cures in general? I'm actually wanting to look at my GDA in my other tank to see what might be hiding there. I am thinking there is a lot of diatoms hiding. 









As close as I could get, 150 times magnification. I am almost thinking this is indeed Rhodophyta and in particular, the one named Audouinella but I am not sure, especially without looking at it much closer (and not being a scientist like Kara is).




























I am smitten by this little guy. Call me creepy, but I've always liked the underdog, the stuffed animal with a torn ear, missing eye, the daises over the roses and generally the things most people consider unloveable. 

I'm thinking you are right, Kara. Done right, algae could be very pretty. I am thinking a cave of BBA or a background of green dust algae. Maybe I'll turn my 15 gallon into an algae farm. Then again, you all might kick me off TPT for putting up a WTB for different algaes. :eek5:


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## mistergreen

I can stick a camera right to the lens and take a picture through the microscope.. I'll shoot some tomorrow.


----------



## sewingalot

That would be great, Mistergreen! Oh, and Kara, I just thought of something. Maybe putting the BBA (Herb) back in the light, made him try to use up what little life was left in his reserves and it wasn't enough to sustain life? Just a random thought on that one.


----------



## Karackle

YAY! Sara you're back!!! I know you were busy with dealing with the real world, no worries on not seeing my post right away!  

Cool pictures! I'm so jealous of you and Mr. Green for having access to a microscope for these kinds of fun things! (<--nerd alert) I have access to some scopes around here but I don't think anyone would be very happy if I started putting algae on them! :hihi: I'm interested to see those pictures too Mr. Green! 

It's harder to see in the pictures probably than it is when you look at it directly, but it does seem that there is more than one kind of algae in there. Very cool. And certainly a possible reason for algae being hard to get rid of, if multiple species are working together to survive in a less-than-friendly-to-algae environment  (mutual symbiosis). 

My thoughts were along the same lines as to why Herb (was i calling him Frank? oops! i fixed it) finally lost his color back in the light. I wasn't really looking for an answer though, just thought it was interesting and that I'd point it out roud: 

And yes, we may both end up getting kicked off of here for wanting to buy algae and/or create algae scapes :hihi: but i still say it would be a cool low maintenance option! :biggrin: I'm loving the idea of a BBA cave instead of a moss cave! :icon_lol:

Oh and that wood/hair looking picture is DEFINITELY cool! I'm digging it! Thanks for the updates!


----------



## SkyGrl

oh this should be exciting! if your wanting candian specimens ill send you my anubis with bba on it.. then i can contribute to the algea tank. (would be cool to see) 

Amy


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## mistergreen

Here you go, BBA magnified. Not the sharpest thing in the world. Some better than others. You can see the cells so that's cool.

900x









400x









150x


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## Karackle

so so cool! Thanks for those pics! It definitely looks like there are at least 2 kinds of algae in BBA, or 2 forms of growth at any rate, the "fat" hairs and the "thin" hairs roud: 

i can see the cells! LOVE IT! 

an offer of canadian aquarium algae for the experiment?! SWEET! Sara, we're not the only ones interested in your experiment!!! :biggrin: YAY!


----------



## sewingalot

Okay gals, you've talked me into it. I am totally setting up an algae scape as soon as I can determine I can sustain Bart Algae for another month in lower light levels. I will be asking for all kinds of donations, so be prepared for that thread. :hihi: 



mistergreen said:


> Here you go, BBA magnified. Not the sharpest thing in the world. Some better than others. You can see the cells so that's cool.
> 
> 900x
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 400x
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 150x





Karackle said:


> so so cool! Thanks for those pics! It definitely looks like there are at least 2 kinds of algae in BBA, or 2 forms of growth at any rate, the "fat" hairs and the "thin" hairs roud:
> 
> i can see the cells! LOVE IT!
> 
> an offer of canadian aquarium algae for the experiment?! SWEET! Sara, we're not the only ones interested in your experiment!!! :biggrin: YAY!


At least I have my friends to humor me. roud: Thanks for the cool pictures, Mistergreen! I am so wanting to compare those to the BBA I have now. I am going to start selling things to gather up some money. Anyone want to donate some algae to me? 

Amy, could you imagine me explaining to customs why I am trying to import algae? :red_mouth


----------



## mistergreen

I should put the glass slide in the tank so I can see what GSA and fuzz algae looks like.

I'm a nut for protozoans, that's why I got the microscope in the firs place.


----------



## SkyGrl

lol ill avoid the questions by sending it to you as a birthday gift..

we can have a donation setup for you. everyone will be sending you algea..  or send you some shrimps. heh heh im going to have enough of them! 2 moms dropped their babies and there are TONNES!!!! its like a crawling moss carpet.. slightly shudder worthy.

Amy


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## sewingalot

mistergreen said:


> I should put the glass slide in the tank so I can see what GSA and fuzz algae looks like.
> 
> I'm a nut for protozoans, that's why I got the microscope in the firs place.


That would be awesome. Share them here if you like!!!



SkyGrl said:


> lol ill avoid the questions by sending it to you as a birthday gift..
> 
> we can have a donation setup for you. everyone will be sending you algea..  or send you some shrimps. heh heh im going to have enough of them! 2 moms dropped their babies and there are TONNES!!!! its like a crawling moss carpet.. slightly shudder worthy.
> 
> Amy


Glad to hear you are doing so well on the shrimpers. I love that 'slightly shudder worthy.' Oh, and thanks for the shrimp offer but I bet Mko will want them more. :hihi:


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## SkyGrl

ill have hundreds! ill be peddling them on the street. 

lol im glad you like the quote.. 

Amy


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## DarkCobra

sewingalot said:


> Okay gals, you've talked me into it. I am totally setting up an algae scape as soon as I can determine I can sustain Bart Algae for another month in lower light levels. I will be asking for all kinds of donations, so be prepared for that thread. :hihi:


LOL! I'd send you some if I had any.

What kind of a tank setup/parameters are you going to use? I don't think pH Down contains phosphoric acid anymore; but when it did, it was great for growing a forest of thread algae.


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## Karackle

Oh boy, I'll have some algae to send you if you want it! I've got fuzzy anubias leaves aplenty, especially in Ian's tank! :hihi: 

I'd love to see slides of the other algaes too MisterGreen! :biggrin:


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## sewingalot

SkyGrl said:


> ill have hundreds! ill be peddling them on the street.
> 
> lol im glad you like the quote..
> 
> Amy


If I wasn't a moderator, I'd totally make an inappropriate joke right now. :wink:



DarkCobra said:


> LOL! I'd send you some if I had any.


Show off. I'll have to give this some thought on how to sustain growth. I was thinking miracle grow or something else with ammonia based fertilizers. However, it would be nice if I could use ordinary ferts so I could put in a shrimp or two.



Karackle said:


> Oh boy, I'll have some algae to send you if you want it! I've got fuzzy anubias leaves aplenty, especially in Ian's tank! :hihi:
> I'd love to see slides of the other algaes too MisterGreen! :biggrin:


Hook me up, Kara.  Don't bother sending the plant, just snip off a leaf. Send it snail mail even.

Oh yeah, and my brother is going to let me use the microscope. I'm going to grab some samples when I run home today.


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## SkyGrl

awe  pm me the joke ill keep it to myself and giggle im sure ( my mind is already pretty dirty) 

you will have to post some findings after your trip to your bros. 

Amy


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## mistergreen

ps. I think the 'fat' hair and the 'thin' hair in my picture is the same algae. The little hair is younger compared to the fat one. They look like they have the same cellular structures and color.


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## Karackle

Sara - can't wait to see more pictures! Also, just let me know when you're ready for those leaves and I'll send them straight off! :hihi: It might be mostly BBA but I'll see what else I can find for you  roud:

MisterGreen - interesting, that does make sense though too. It's a bit hard to make out the cell wall shape in the pics, but i'll take your word for it! :hihi: roud:


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## mistergreen

Karackle said:


> MisterGreen - interesting, that does make sense though too. It's a bit hard to make out the cell wall shape in the pics, but i'll take your word for it! :hihi: roud:


Don't take my word for it, I'm full of it most times 

I know for sure it's the same color though, it's not green. This microscope picks up color pretty well. I wish the light source was white light though.


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## sewingalot

LOL, Amy. Send the BBA whenever you feel like it. The more, the merrier. I am thinking I'll do mostly BBA, Green algae. Nothing too fancy. :hihi:

What is the light source color, mistergreen? I am like totally hooked right now. I saw a worm and some little hop skippers in the water under just the 150x. I am soooooo wanting a higher microscope now. AND that book Tom suggested! :help:

Here are some more pictures of various algaes. Clado with a piece of moss for comparison, diatoms, what I thought was GDA (which I am finding out is a mixture of a lot of thinks including diatoms and BGA!!!) I only which I could get in closer. Anyone want to buy me a strong microscope that is digital? 

Did you know diatoms move around in still water like little boats? So cool. I'm in love!

Sorry it's not clearer or closer, but I'm still sharing. 

Green Dust Algae (not really thinking it's this alone anymore, I'm renaming it to Great Paint Algae for now.)









Yes, that's a fingerprint of mine in GPA:









Clado sp over taking the moss:









See how it's sucking the life out of the moss and how black the strand is:









Diatoms with a strand of clado for comparison. Some detritus, too.









Clado









Dying clado. 









Upclose of moss to show how little clado strand is in comparison. No one it's a pain to remove. 









I thought this was neat: diatoms, clado and moss playing:


----------



## sewingalot

My algae is excited about spring. It decided to lay out in the....rain. Err, anyway, it even lives on a fence in my world.










Here's the driftwood, which I now call Francine:









No fertilizers given whatsoever. No water changes, just top-offs with distilled water. The wood is providing enough nutrients to sustain it and grow it. I'm leaving it another month to see if it's still alive. 

Don't know if anyone is following still, but this is fascinating to me.


----------



## nonconductive

your fence looks like my rear glass sometimes.


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## sewingalot

:biggrin: I've come to the conclusion algae loves me as much as I love algae. With it being so easy to grow, remind me again why it's not utilized as fuel?


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## nonconductive

sewingalot said:


> :biggrin: I've come to the conclusion algae loves me as much as I love algae. With it being so easy to grow, remind me again why it's not utilized as fuel?


$$$$$$ & the inability to accept change


----------



## sewingalot

nonconductive said:


> $$$$$$ & the inability to accept change


True, true. Change is very difficult for people. And too many people make money on the status quo, I guess. It's sad, really when you look at the untapped potential out there. We so often fight over who's right or wrong, that we forget to go forward. :icon_conf I'm more dynamic than most, though.


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## nonconductive

sewingalot said:


> We so often fight over who's right or wrong, that we forget to go forward. :icon_conf


very well put!


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## DarkCobra

sewingalot said:


> :biggrin: I've come to the conclusion algae loves me as much as I love algae. With it being so easy to grow, remind me again why it's not utilized as fuel?


Because it requires massive amounts of nitrogen fertilizer, which is made from coal and natural gas. Nothing green or sustainable about that.

And by the time you break down the algae, extract and purify the oil, then recycle/process the waste so it's not a hazard to the environment; you're lucky to get more energy out than you put in.

Few people look beyond the surface and recognize the true costs of apparently "green" technologies. Even current hybrid cars require more additional energy to manufacture and properly recycle than they will ever recover in their expected lifetime.

Give it 10-20 years.


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## mistergreen

Algae is so darn small. It'll take a lake the size of Utah full of diatom algae to make fuel that's competitive, not costing $500/gallon. Any algae that attach to stuff is impossible to harvest as we all know.


Hybrid batteries have issues too. Nickle lithium is in short supply and we're mining it (destroying the environment)... and it's kinda toxic.


----------



## sewingalot

I'm a big advocate of biofuel and realize the initial costs involved, risks and even dangerous methods that have been used by others. Yet, that's not a reason to stop studying something. Heck, the way my grandma (and others) use to make soap was extremely dangerous and bad for the environment. Now they've found safer alternatives as well as more dangerous ones. 

Point being, renewable energy is not as ungreen or as far fetched as it once was. I like talking about what is possible if we actually thought about it. Not the current reality, but the possibilities. Hard for me to explain my reasoning.

I also come from coal country and see the effects of mining on a daily basis. Many of my friends and family have relied on coal to make ends meet, so I won't discuss it further out of respect to them and others like them. I'm not the type that enjoys talking hot button topics, and shy away from them. I like to daydream and speculate on the what ifs. My husband on the other hand...:hihi:

Here's a good site if anyone wants to read up or discuss it further: http://www.oilgae.com/ Me, I'll stick to the daydreaming.


----------



## nonconductive

my dad has worked in a control room of a petroleum refinery for 40 years along with his dad and all his brothers, so i know where you are coming from.


----------



## nonconductive

DarkCobra said:


> Because it requires massive amounts of nitrogen fertilizer, which is made from coal and natural gas. Nothing green or sustainable about that.


there are also other ways to feed it.


----------



## DarkCobra

sewingalot said:


> Point being, renewable energy is not as ungreen or as far fetched as it once was. I like talking about what is possible if we actually thought about it. Not the current reality, but the possibilities. Hard for me to explain my reasoning.


The dreamer in me reads up on all this stuff to see the future unfolding.

The realist in me just sees it's happening very slowly. 

But yes, it's amazing what might be on the horizon. Algal biofuels. Batteries that will make long range pure electric cars feasible (and make my cordless tools and gadgets not die every few years). Breeder reactors that could supply the entire world's electrical needs for hundreds of years using only existing waste from standard reactors.

Photovoltaic solar power has made huge leaps in the last decade, it's just hard to see any real effect because they're rolling so much money and resources into building new solar cell plants.

And of course, the holy grail is fusion power. Lawrenceville's focus fusion shows some promise. Time will tell.


----------



## Karackle

AWESOME PHOTOS SARA!!!!! Algae is the coolest! Did you know that algae is responsible for making the majority of the oxygen in the atmosphere? Very cool little organisms! Amazing actually. 

I'm totally digging your microscope pictures, they look great! I'd love to see pictures of some of the critters you're finding too, even though they're not algae :hihi: 

Also, I love francine! If it's going to grow as well as Francine, I can't wait to see the all algae tank :biggrin:


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## mistergreen

You know what, macro algae would be a great bio fuel. Kelp and other seaweeds grow like mad and are harvestable. I think the microalgae/Microphyte is a dead end for bio-fuel. 

They'll do great with all of the ferts we dump in the ocean.


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## sewingalot

DarkCobra said:


> The dreamer in me reads up on all this stuff to see the future unfolding.


Stop right there and keep up the dreaming! Let the realism be for other things like how much weight I've gained after the holidays. 



mistergreen said:


> You know what, macro algae would be a great bio fuel. Kelp and other seaweeds grow like mad and are harvestable. I think the microalgae/Microphyte is a dead end for bio-fuel.
> 
> They'll do great with all of the ferts we dump in the ocean.


Now, you're thinking, MrGreen! 



Karackle said:


> AWESOME PHOTOS SARA!!!!! Algae is the coolest! Did you know that algae is responsible for making the majority of the oxygen in the atmosphere? Very cool little organisms! Amazing actually.
> 
> I'm totally digging your microscope pictures, they look great! I'd love to see pictures of some of the critters you're finding too, even though they're not algae :hihi:
> 
> Also, I love francine! If it's going to grow as well as Francine, I can't wait to see the all algae tank :biggrin:


Thanks, Kara. Francine says she loves you, too. I've got some videos of some wee dots, but nothing that you can see better than them swimming around. I'll link them if you like. I actually watched the diatoms moving around like little school buses, too. It was really neat to watch them bump into things and back up and maneuver around them. I want a digital microscope that zooms in closer and does videos now. :frown: People must think I am mad. Little do they know I truly am. :wink:


----------



## .Mko.

hey,
going to jump into this thread. just finished reading this whole thread and i loved it. francine is a true beaut. LOL
anyways i would like to share my experience with BBA. My first planted nano cube had a crazy infestation of BBA on my rocks. I remember some people commenting that they actually liked the look on my rocks. LOL you can judge for yourself.










you can see it on that big zebra rock... one day in the summer i just got fed up since it just wouldn't go away even after excel dosages and the fact that i wouldn't have any steady Co2 to keep it down comming in anytime soon...So i took my dad's blow torch and scorched the rock clean =D... i have to say of my experiences so far in this planted tank hobby blow torching BBA was the most satisfying unorthodox victory i ever experienced =)


----------



## nonconductive

.Mko. said:


> So i took my dad's blow torch and scorched the rock clean =D... i have to say of my experiences so far in this planted tank hobby blow torching BBA was the most satisfying unorthodox victory i ever experienced =)


thats awesome! did you hear it scream?


----------



## Karackle

Mko - I have to agree with the people who liked it! I think it looks cool myself, though, I also am laughing at the image of you blow-torching the rock, that's hilarious. In my head you are also laughing maniacally while doing so :icon_lol: 

Anyway....Sara....diatoms MOVE?! Wow.....i feel like a crappy marine biology enthusiast right now......LOL......um....yeah, PM me those links, I'd love to see them! Even if they are just of blurry moving specks!  Now I want a microscope at home!!! LOL 

I'm off to google microscopes and see if I can't convince the boy that that is what I need as my XMas / Chanukah / BDay present next year :hihi:


----------



## sewingalot

Mko - Hilarious!!! If all else fails, use a blow torch! Should we put a disclaimer here that we aren't responsible for damages? LOL

Kara, not my video, but this is a better quality anyway showing exactly what I was talking about. My diatoms are the rectangular type, orangish brown and that's why I thought they look like school buses. :hihi:


----------



## Karackle

HAHAHAHAHA They DO look like little school buses!!! :hihi: Thanks for that link, I loved it! Diatoms are so cool looking aren't they? Check out the main picture here at the wikipedia site, they look like glass beads or stained glass....either way they look like pieces of art! Incredible little things. And even though they are phytoplankton ("plants") some of them DO have flagella, so they can move! CRAZY! I was forgetting that they could have flagella, which is so weird because they are plants. Nature is crazy awesome. :hihi:


----------



## sewingalot

Told you so. I'll have to go see my brother for the videos. I must have left them on his computer. :| Figures the jewelry girl could find beauty in the diatom. But, you are right! They does look like glass beads. 

Did you know that they've solved cases by using diatoms alone? How is that not awesome? I absolutely love the beauty in science. That is why I love algae, too. It's found new ways to evolve. I don't know why we are so scared of it. Ticks are 10000000 times more creepy.


----------



## sewingalot

plantbrain said:


> near Lake Tahoe:


Who lives near Lake Tahoo and wants to collect me some of this for my new tank?!? Seriously. :red_mouth


----------



## .Mko.

wow all natural... beautiful!


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## sewingalot

^ Yeah, that's one of Tom's photos. In this area we only see muddy water.


----------



## SkyGrl

if only you could have that in your backyard! i wonder if you could make a circular river system in your backyard? stock it with native fish.. oh how exciting! now i must buy an acreage!!!!!

Amy


----------



## Karackle

HAHAHAHA well I don't think it takes someone who makes jewelry to see the beauty in diatoms, but definitely leave it to me to see "glass beads" right away :hihi: awesome. 

They're so beautiful though, it looks like people actually make art out of them, there's a lot of pics that come up in a google image search for "diatoms" that diatoms in a circle of light with a black background (like the one of the wikipedia page) like it's a series or something. Very cool. I also found some TShirts with a collection of diatoms on them :hihi: brilliant. 

And that is most DEFINITELY awesome that cases have been solved just based on diatoms!

Also, I'm sorry I don't live near Lake Tahoe to pick up some algae for you :tongue: If I go visit my friends in the Albany / Saratoga area in the spring or summer I'll see what I can find in the lakes though! roud: It might have been before we "met" but I used to have a pico tank with lots of hairgrass in it that I collected from the lake at my buddy's family summer cabin and it was really healthy, I bet there's some good algae in there too :hihi:


----------



## sewingalot

Kara it is very pretty, makes me wonder if you could create gems to look like diatoms. 

I am totally bored of this experiment as is. The algae is slowly growing in low light, no nutrients and no water circulation. So, I am thinking I'm going to set up diy co2 and purposely fluctuate it and maybe try to get high levels of co2 and see what happens.

I am still looking for rocks. The first ones I found are soaking and so far don't seem to alter the water quality. So start gathering that algae for me.


----------



## Karackle

awesome, I can't wait to see how your experiments progress whatever they are! :hihi: :bounce:


----------



## mistergreen

I have an interesting observation for you Sara.
My heater was broken and was on 24/7. The temperature was in the high 80's for a few days. I noticed more BBA, maybe because the water was lacking all gasses, CO2 & O2 etc... The form of the BBA also changed. Instead of the fuzzy hairy look, it was short and wiry.


----------



## sewingalot

That is freaking awesome! I love it. Thanks for sharing this observation. I'd love to see before and after shots. Maybe it's time I start up that algae tank with a heater.

I am on my 2nd day of diy co2. I'm getting a pretty good bps right now.


----------



## Karackle

Woah, totally cool Mr. Green! Very cool update!


----------



## mistergreen

What are words without pictures?


----------



## sewingalot

Now that is impressive. Loving the pictures. Mistergreen and Kara, I am starting to think we are on our own here finding algae observations so interesting. :hihi:


----------



## PRSRocker3390

I'm very curious to see what the diy co2 does to the BBA, if it gets better or not.


----------



## Karackle

sewingalot said:


> Now that is impressive. Loving the pictures.


Totally agree!



sewingalot said:


> Mistergreen and Kara, I am starting to think we are on our own here finding algae observations so interesting. :hihi:


I think you might find yourself wrong on that count, as demonstrated by PRSRocker's comment :hihi:


----------



## PRSRocker3390

:biggrin: Lol, you caught me! Well I'm a long time sufferer of BBA (sounds like I have an unfortunate infection or disease when said like that...lol) and I'm just curious to see some of these observations. You guys are changing my outlook on BBA. All the time, I think "I hate BBA and I just want it gone" but this is now making me wonder what makes it grow the way it does and what does it do in other tanks besides mine. I have BBA in my 75 gallon low light (64 watts of 6700k T8, which is two 32 watt bulbs for those who are counting) and I've had BBA like nobody's business. I'm currently in the process of adding one of Jaggedfury's DIY paintball co2 setups on the 75 low light and am completely redoing the tank and cleaning out all visible BBA. Then with a tiny bit of co2 being added (like 1 bps), I want to see if it goes away, grows faster, or just look different. I've had BBA look different in two separate tanks before and thought that was odd. Hey, I can't seem to beat the stuff so I might as well embrace it and make some observations!:icon_wink


----------



## Karackle

MUAHAHAHA another convert to BBA intrigue!!! 

I like your positive outlook Rocker! :biggrin:

But yes, it does sound like a weird disease when you say it like that :hihi:


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## PRSRocker3390

If I don't stay positive about the BBA and just embrace it as part of the planted tank and just plant life in general. Algae is just part of our life I guess! If you can't beat the stuff, then just go with it.... Or just squirt a nice syringe of H2O2 or excel, make it upset and die off, and then it just comes back again for more love!


----------



## sewingalot

How did I miss a new post? Sorry I didn't respond earlier. 

I am glad I am not the only one on here that is fascinated by algae growth. How can you not appreciate something that is able to adapt to many situations? It grows in high light, low light, high nutrients, low nutrients, it adapts. But how will it do with Co2???? 

Well, for my faithful followers, here are my observations. (Do I need to make a disclaimer here that I am completely doing this for fun and this is all subjective?) My pH is 7.2 - 7.4 out of the tap depending on the day and it is reading about 6.6 - 6.8 on the test kit in the jar now with the diy 24/7. 

Last updated Picture:









Today:









I stirred the water up so you can see the awful carnage:


















The growth is longer and weak in comparison to the last time. Some of it is falling off and some has already turned white. There is a layer of debris on the floor of the jar, but I couldn't get a good enough picture. This wasn't hear before.. I am not dosing this water outside of what's already present in the tap. I am thinking about adding some nutrients, but for now, I am going to give it a little more time with just diy co2.

I'll be refreshing the co2 every 7 days just to be consistent.


----------



## PRSRocker3390

Awesome, I love this little experiment. So the BBA seems to be not do so well, huh? Maybe I missed it, but are there any plants in there to see if they grow as well like a moss or something? Algae is definitely fascinating at times!


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## sewingalot

Too early to say for sure, but I don't think my BBA is happy. I'll update again if you like in a week or so. There is flame moss and some java that is doing quite well. It's just random pieces that adhered themselves to the driftwood over the course of a few months.


----------



## PRSRocker3390

Awesome! Yes, you definitely should keep us updated. BBA to me is one of the most fascinating of algae species due to its ability to show up in any situation.


----------



## sewingalot

Will do. I feel the same way. I am glad that there are people out there with no algae, but I am never going to be one of them. So why not just enjoy my plants and say hi to the algae as it waves in the breeze? To give you an idea of how much algae I have in my 55, if I picked it all out and put it in a pile, I doubt it would be a 1/4 cup. Yet, I was letting that little amount discourage me because so many people brag about not having algae. I had to change my outlook or get out of the hobby. That's the point of this thread really. To share with people it's not a big deal to have algae, it's just a natural part in some people's tanks for whatever reason.

By the way, I'm finding a new love as well. Diatoms! When (if) I ever get a microscope, that'll be my next project.


----------



## PRSRocker3390

That's a great outlook right there about it being natural. Yup, I don't seem like i'll be one of those people either. It really made me consider quitting the hobby as well. This is like my little BBA support group now! lol I'm adding on one of those paintball setups that jaggedfury has made and talked about with minor part alterations to see if some amount of co2 on my low light 75 will inhibit the BBA a bit. Diatoms are always fun too, my glass and such seems to always have diatom blooms at time (so much for ever having light colored sand for me! It never works) It seems like we have the same issues with our tanks. Algae is one of those things that I really would love to study and really get to know what makes each one do what it does and why.


----------



## sewingalot

Haha, I can see it now; you could have Algae Pimp #x in your signature underneath the filstar one. :hihi: I know, that's what got me down about the hobby. I'd here all these people talk about algae free tanks and I kept thinking: "What is wrong with me?" Now, as I study it off the forum, and in my tanks, it's actually very intriguing. 

I am not trying to say 'this causes algae' or 'this prevents it.' I am like you, I see the correlation in diatoms and sand or when I add iron to a tank doing well and think now why does this happen to me when everyone else says it's not true? In all honesty, it probably is my failure to have a balanced system. But I'm tired of trying to be like the Joneses. I'm going to accept my algae and enjoy my tank as it is. And if I find something that works for me, I'll do it. Who cares if it isn't the correct method? The only advice I'll ever give is not to follow my methods without being forewarned. :biggrin: 

Please keep me updated on the co2 kit you got from jaggedfury. By all means, post it here. I'm all for knowing more about any algae experiences.


----------



## g33tar

I realize this is probably the wrong thread, but, here's an algae mystery that maybe someone can explain. 

My tank is algae free, all except for blue green algae that grows JUST on my heater. Whats up with that.


----------



## DarkCobra

g33tar said:


> My tank is algae free, all except for blue green algae that grows JUST on my heater. Whats up with that.


It's warm and snuggly. And higher temperatures deplete O2, which BGA likes.


----------



## PRSRocker3390

Lol, Okay fixed up my signature! :icon_mrgr 

But I totally agree, I can't keep up with the others with having an algae free tank. It just doesn't seem like it will happen for me. If I do find something that works for me, then sure I'll do it even if it is something that is against the "typical" advice or methods we all learn to use. 

I'll definitely update my progress with the co2 in my low light 75. I'll keep in touch here definitely but will also make a journal as well to replace my last failed 75g journal. I just need to fill the paintball tank, waiting for some huge driftwood to sink, and then need to replant the tank with some new plants I need to get. I have a little time before it will get going but hopefully soon, like the next week or two. Just need the darn driftwood to sink first!:icon_bigg

Also, please keep sharing your co2 experiment as well!


----------



## nonconductive

what helped me was to realize that these well manicured algae free tanks don't always look like that. they could look like barf the day after the picture is taken and no one would ever know.


----------



## mistergreen

This algae probably requires a lot of the stuff plant needs, CO2, nutrients, light. If you limit any one of these the algae will weaken.


----------



## Karackle

I love algae because it's supposed to be part of an aquatic system. As long as it's not totally destroying my plants, I don't mind algae in my tank, it helps make areas that are hard to plant on DW and rocks not look quite as stark and new, gives an nice weathered look. 



nonconductive said:


> what helped me was to realize that these well manicured algae free tanks don't always look like that. they could look like barf the day after the picture is taken and no one would ever know.


Also an excellent point! 

Anyway, I'm intrigued by the fact that the java ferns and flame moss are still doing well but the BBA is not. Very interesting indeed. Can't wait to get the weekly update and see whether it has adjusted to the CO2 and is doing well again or not! 

ALSO - there is no "wrong way" to do any of this (with minor exceptions such as it not being a planted aquarium if you don't add water to it and that you can't plant non-aquatic plants in an aquatic system :hihi, the only "right way" is the way that works for you and accomplishes what YOU want to accomplish. If your tank looks and grows the way you want it to, then you are doing it the "right way"! roud: that's how i see it anyway.


----------



## sewingalot

PRSRocker3390 said:


> Lol, Okay fixed up my signature! :icon_mrgr


Awesome. I am doing the same! So let's see who else I can convert. :hihi: Nonc and Kara - both excellent points!

Mistergreen - what about the organics from the driftwood itself? I am almost thinking this is enough to sustain it. But, I am often wrong.


----------



## Karackle

Oh I guess I better fix up my signature too! :hihi:


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## nonconductive

hey how do i join the algae club...


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## sewingalot

^ I created this just for you: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/groups/i-algae.html (Edit: and you are #4)

I am so proud. My husband is grading papers and shared one with me. Do you know what the topic was? Algae and using it as fuel. :thumbsup: At least his students are thinking about the possibility for algae. I will have a bunch for them.


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## PRSRocker3390

Yes! With all the increasing gas prices, we will be laughing with our never ending supply of algae fuel! Lol But in all seriousness it would be an awesome alternative fuel!


I'm so glad we got this little algae club going. Lol

Good point about the driftwood. I never thought of that. Are the organics of driftwood the reason why I seem to never have a clean piece of driftwood? It's the number one site for my BBA to start it's growth and usually is the hardest to get rid of. 

Just another though I had today bug when I first started, my first tank was a high tech 20g ( 5pm pressurized co2, 65w pc lighting, fluorite, ei, etc,) never had BBA but had other weird algae appearing). Since being in the hobby for quite a few years now, I've retired that tank after one year, and went to low light and low tech tanks. I now no longer get those weird forms of algae but instead get the common BBA, GSA, diatoms. Just thought I would share how no matter what, some of us just have algae as a close personal friend in our tanks. But hey, To me it's more natural to have our algae. Plus, besides algae in random spots and times, my plants always grow very healthy and look pretty good so I'm always content.


----------



## SkyGrl

i need to join the algea club to.. am i number 5?? 

we must stick together! us lovers of algea

Amy


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## chad320

Can I join the club? Can you be a previous owner? How about when I eradicate it, am I kicked out? JK, algae clubs are lame unless you can do this


----------



## Reginald2

oh wow. I saw this thread, and got excited thinking that the algae closet monster would finally give up all its kind's secrets. I come here to see the black magic/forces of evil uncovered and expected a cure to be well under way.

What do I find? Treason. All I can say is that algae certainly is invasive. lol


*sighs and walks off muttering something about hearts and minds*


----------



## Karackle

YEAH FOR ALGAE FUEL! :hihi: 

AND YAY FOR ALGAE CLUBS! WOOT WOOT!!! :bounce:

what were we actually talking about again? LOL


----------



## PRSRocker3390

Lol our algae support group and the pimping of algae is always fun. But to stay on topic, we were discussing BBA and our experiences with it even in low light. 

I'm excited to see how the DIY co2 will work on the BBA in the jar. And I can't wait to see how my low light tank with some BBA reacts when some co2 is added to it.


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## Karackle

oooooh yeah. I'm excited to see how the BBA is doing in the CO2 too :hihi:


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## sewingalot

Amy, you pick whatever number you like, or you could be a letter, or even a symbol. We invite creativity to this group. :thumbsup: 

Chad, wait until it stops raining and I'll snap some pictures in my back yard. I *think* I may even have that picture topped. (Are you intrigued?) 

Poor Reginald, I think you are looking for the sticky on how to kill BBA. We are here to turn it into a happy thing. 

For the record, if it is algae related, you can hijack the thread, as long as you don't hurt it's feelings. Non of that "algae is bad" talk. PSR, wait until you see that jar. Also, yes, I have the weirdest algae in my higher light tanks (at least present that is).


----------



## Rockhoe14er

I just wanted to say that i love reading this post. It's been really interesting and nice to hear from people going through the same problems that i am.


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## sewingalot

Welcome, Rockhoe14er! Come on in and share your experiences. And you are welcome to join the dark side of algae life: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/groups/i-algae.html I am glad you found us. This was the whole point of the thread, actually. I wanted to share with others that it's not a big deal to have algae in your tank and you can even have a lovely tank. (I'll warn you this radical way of thinking upsets some people, just so you are properly warned. )

And I am declaring this the official anthem: Billy Idol - Rebel Yell 

For tonight's random thought: BBA = awesome false eyelashes. :biggrin:


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## SkyGrl

LOL if only i could find false eyelashes that lush!

ill be algea pimp..









Amy


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## sewingalot

Loving the Maple Leaf! It figures Kara thinks she is the omega. Let's all amuse her. :hihi:

Okay, so the BBA is pearling. Is this a bad sign? I go in the kitchen this evening to cook dinner and it was actually pearling. Yep, I'm thinking this stuff is evil. Amy, wouldn't they be cute? We should market them. We'll call them Green Lashes.


----------



## Rockhoe14er

sewingalot said:


> Loving the Maple Leaf! It figures Kara thinks she is the omega. Let's all amuse her. :hihi:
> 
> Okay, so the BBA is pearling. Is this a bad sign? I go in the kitchen this evening to cook dinner and it was actually pearling. Yep, I'm thinking this stuff is evil. Amy, wouldn't they be cute? We should market them. We'll call them Green Lashes.


haha. Well i've joined the group looks like i'm number 6. 

I've gone through quite the algae journey Ironically the only algae i haven't had is BBA. So i'll consider myself lucky for the moment. Thread algae is the love of my life and looks like it's here to stay. 


Next topic of discussion would you consider algae more advanced because it can live off much less than any plant and adapt faster to new conditions better than any plant?


----------



## sewingalot

Welcome to the dark side of the planted tank community. :icon_twis I can send you all kinds of fluffy BBA if you like. It's soft like a kitty cat. I've had thread algae a couple times and it was a pain to kill. Cardinal Tetra helped me get rid of it, but I don't remember what I did it was so long ago. Shoot him a pm and tell him if he doesn't help you I'm sending him BBA with those stink bugs I've been collecting.

As far as your question: Personally, yes. I consider it more advanced in the fact it is advantageous. I kind of think of algae in the same respect of cockroaches. It can live a long time on very little resources. Take a plant, put it in deplorable conditions next to algae. Which one is more likely to survive? For me, it's always algae. I think of it as lichen in the sense that it can take over a healthy species and feed off it in a symbiotic relationship. However, if the scale tips just a little bit in the favor of the lichen (such as lightning damaging the bark), you'll sometimes see it over take the tree so fast it kills it within months. And I am talking hundreds of years old trees. 

Yet, that's just my opinion and you know what they say about those.


----------



## PRSRocker3390

Oh man, the bba is pearling! How is the growth on it? Any new growth, slow growth, or no growth? Interesting!

I think algae is very advanced and +1 to to the above post. It really does adapt to a lot of the variables we provide it. I look at things like crypts that melt from changes or plants that can't take certain temps or setups, but algae.... it's always there. At least one species of it will seem to always find a way to survive just a bit. That species just so happens to be BBA for me! lol


----------



## Rockhoe14er

It'd be interesting if someone changed their tank parameters daily which algae is the best of the best. For example run high co2 one day then 0 the next then medium co2 and so on. You could also change other parameters too. Which algae is the best at adapting. Which algae is the algae to other algaes.


----------



## sewingalot

Too early to tell if it is growing, but it doesn't seem to hate me. I'll take pictures in a few more days. Right now it looks the same to me. I'm trying to figure out how to rig up a drop checker. I'm pretty much always tinkering with my tanks. (Probably why I have algae issues) and I can tell you BBA and clado are on the top of my list. Yet clado is much easier for me to remove as it grows slower....


----------



## bsmith

BBA is certainly a strange algae. The most places I encounter it are on the substrate where not only light intensity is the lowest but also flow is too. I didn't read the whole thread but I can tell you from personal experience that it need not be a high light tank and low flow is a huge cause of it as well.


----------



## nonconductive

I have the opposite experience. It tends to grow in the higher flow areas for me.


----------



## bsmith

Another thing that makes BBA great. No rhyme or reason to it.


----------



## Karackle

Wow I missed a lot today! First of all, awesome sigs people. Second, YES, rebel yell is PERFECT! LOVE IT!

And, it's true. BBA basically just grows wherever it darn well pleases! :hihi:

Also it's not like a put an alpha!


----------



## DarkCobra

Aw man, all the cool kids are doin' it. Can I be an algae pimp too?


----------



## bsmith

DarkCobra said:


> Aw man, all the cool kids are doin' it. Can I be an algae pimp too?


You dont want none of this. It's like smoking when your a teenager, cool then but crappy now. :icon_mrgr


----------



## nonconductive

bsmith said:


> You dont want none of this. It's like smoking when your a teenager, cool then but crappy now. :icon_mrgr


haha!


----------



## DarkCobra

bsmith said:


> You dont want none of this. It's like smoking when your a teenager, cool then but crappy now. :icon_mrgr


LOL! But it's too late. Just took this picture:










Everything went wrong in this tank recently. Funny the way the algae grew, the pattern reminds me of how bacteria often grows on a petri dish. :hihi:


----------



## Rockhoe14er

DarkCobra said:


> LOL! But it's too late. Just took this picture:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everything went wrong in this tank recently. Funny the way the algae grew, the pattern reminds me of how bacteria often grows on a petri dish. :hihi:


haha and just like bacteria it'll probably be around long after plants and animals are extinct.


----------



## mistergreen

There is no rhyme or reason to BBA. Think of it was a really adaptable weed like riccia. Once it's in your tank, it's in there to flourish.


----------



## sewingalot

roud: bsmith. 



DarkCobra said:


> LOL! But it's too late. . .Everything went wrong in this tank recently. Funny the way the algae grew, the pattern reminds me of how bacteria often grows on a petri dish. :hihi:


Hmm.....Wasn't Mr Somebody just bragging last month? \/ 



DarkCobra said:


> *LOL! I'd send you some if I had any.
> *
> What kind of a tank setup/parameters are you going to use? I don't think pH Down contains phosphoric acid anymore; but when it did, it was great for growing a forest of thread algae.


DarkCobra, I have a message for you from BBA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua2k52n_Bvw&feature=related

That algae is awesome. It does look petri dishy.


----------



## Karackle

alas! the algae monster rears it's gorgeous head! :hihi: DarkCobra, that looks like some serious algae man, i hope your plants are ok! Because as much as we love our algae here in this thread, we don't like when it threatens the other things in the tank! 

Sara, excellent song choice! HAHAHA


----------



## DarkCobra

sewingalot said:


> Hmm.....Wasn't Mr Somebody just bragging last month? \/
> 
> DarkCobra, I have a message for you from BBA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua2k52n_Bvw&feature=related


Yes, yes I was. :hihi: And perfect song choice!



Karackle said:


> DarkCobra, that looks like some serious algae man, i hope your plants are ok!


They're fine. It's mostly on the glass.

Things I've learned this week:

1) Intentionally putting a large weather loach in a tank with hundreds of snails equals unintentional massive overfeeding.
2) Hundreds of empty snail shells will clog your filter and CO2 diffuser powerhead. Repeatedly.
3) Changing your ferts, photoperiod, and water change schedule to accommodate a medication, which isn't good for the biofilter, during a snailpocalypse makes things much worse. (It appears a few callamanus worms survived from the prior pandemic and treatments. :icon_cry
4) In the ensuing chaos, a large, weak and old fish will die, somewhere you can't find it.
5) Either the ferret or cat has the unerring ability to turn off power strips at inopportune times.
6) The oto in this tank is incredibly lazy.
7) With all this going on, algae is your friend and only improves the water quality. It can stay for now.


----------



## Reginald2

DarkCobra said:


> Hundreds of empty snail shells will clog your filter and CO2 diffuser powerhead. Repeatedly.


:eek5: What happened in there?

I guess you've got a happy loach. If it ever came down to ferret vs. cat when it comes to mischief, I'd go ferret every time. They've got some sort of built in mischief sense that supernaturally guides them.


----------



## bsmith

Otos are always lazy in my tanks. The only animal I have seen do jack to algae are nerve snails. That's only talking about GSA/gda too.


----------



## PRSRocker3390

Otos are a bit active for me, they just are picky as to what algae they would like to eat. Mine tend to take care of the brown or diatom algae and then touch some of the gda if there are these algae present. They will never touch BBA and they can try at GSA all day but they are not strong enough it seems to scrape it off. 

I always thought and heard that BBA likes low flow but it totally confused me when it would grow on and around the holes of my canister spraybar. It use to grow and be constantly blowing violently in the flow but would still hold on and grow.

BBA is the top dog in the algae world in my opinion.


----------



## Rockhoe14er

Spirogyra is a pretty nasty algae too because it thrives in the same conditions as plants.


----------



## houseofcards

The flow argument I don't think really works in regards to BBA. Organic build up occurs right in the pores of equipment like spraybars, also on slow growing or unhealthy plants regardless of flow.


----------



## sewingalot

snailpocalypse - best word ever. The webster needs updating ASAP. Dark Cobra, glad to see you are onto making friends with algae. Signature is a nice touch.  Flow I think works because of the way the algae reproduces. If you've read up on algae, red algae is really quite complex. It actually has to travel to survive. So I definitely see how movement helps BBA grow. But, I am suspecting just a fish swimming past is enough to make it travel.


----------



## sewingalot

Some algae in nature! Best picture I could get before Kafka pulled me in the water. LOL


----------



## Karackle

algae is nature's filter. i love the picture :hihi: sorry you got pulled in the water though! silly pups!


----------



## Karackle

an ode to algae:

algae you amazing oxygen machine
without you our air supply would be very lean

you filter our water
i love harry potter
you make a nice surface 
or really a canvas 
for the snails to go crazy
and stop being lazy
they make pretty art
but that's only just part
of why you are great 
i hope they don't hate
me for making more rhymes
it's really good times 

algae you amazing filtering machine
without you our water wouldn't be very clean

you come in all sorts
i like to build forts
your green and your blue 
and some have red hue
you grow in freshwater 
but it isn't a bother 
to grow in the sea
for my friend the algae
algae, you're great 
i'm sorry they hate
when you come in the tank
on that you can bank

algae, oh algae, it's sad but it's true
many nice folks don't appreciate you 
but i want you to know that I certainly do


----------



## nonconductive

lol i like to build forts


----------



## PRSRocker3390

Algae is pretty much nature's filter. I'll tell you this, algae pulls out a nice amount of nutrients, especially when you have a good amount. Many non planted tank customers come in to my store asking how they should rid this algae or that algae. I try to get them to embrace it and never really worry about being spotless. Algae really does feed on some of these things, looks natural, and is a natural food source for young fry and herbivorous fish. I like that all of us here can learn to accept and appreciate the algae we have. Many people look at it in disgust, like it is a disease or something. A lot of non planted tank customers I deal with think its a bad thing but after teaching them the nature of it and how it really is a natural living part of aquatic life, many do start to see that it's really not that bad. :icon_wink

One of my favorite trends right now is the marimo ball. It's showing people that algae can be cool and interesting. It shows that it can be productive at pulling nutrients and providing micro-organisms for small fish/fry. I for one always push the sale of marimo balls at my job because in a way, it's helping people see algae in a better way. A more natural and beneficial way. :icon_mrgr


----------



## plantbrain

I recently came back from a large region with many karst springs, full of plants.
These plants where very clean, algae free over all. In the middle of a large desert in Mexico(Cuatrociengas).

High CO2, high high light for the most part, a few had high nutrients, others, pretty low.

Where plant density was high and disturbances lowest, we found less algae.
The same ecological similarity is evident in Forest and weeds. Fish densities where high, some invasive fish species where present, very difficult to remove and a threat to the native populations, and likely the plants in some cases.

Where people had been allowed to swim and damaged the higher plants, there was bare sediment and more algae. In other sites, the people had been banned from swimming and the recovery was slow. Recovery plants where mostly emergent species and Chara beds. This differs dramatically from the native natural reference sites where disturbance has NOT occured.

We can likely apply these same notions to planted tanks.


----------



## mistergreen

Jungle tanks are the key! I guess I've always know that. That is why my tank is a jungle. It helps to control the algae.


----------



## sewingalot

PSR - You are the Algae Pimp #1. :hihi: Selling it to people at stores, fantastic! I agree, algae is beneficial if we let it. Kara - the poem is fantastic, loving it! It should be posted in our exclusive club. Mistergreen, I am thinking along those lines as well. My jungle scapes rarely had algae concerns above GSA and was my favorite look. I am slowly going back to that.

TOM! You are back from vacation! That is a cool thing you observed while you were down in Mexico. Did you take any pictures of these places? I'm really interested in the fact the disturbed areas had more algae than the protected areas. It really stinks about the invasive fish, though. Are they trying to eradicate them? 

I am wondering, do you think it was the constant disturbance of the water that was causing the algae to flourish? Up here, I've never seen plants in the fast moving turbid waters. Just border plants. But algae flourishes. I'm looking for my boots so I can go tromping through the water and get some better pictures. If I don't find them soon, I'm going sans shoes. I'm _that _country.


----------



## Karackle

sewingalot said:


> Kara - the poem is fantastic, loving it! It should be posted in our exclusive club.


Thank you, thank you. Also, done and done. 

PRS - i totally never realized marimo balls were algae! I always assumed they were some kind of moss, and I was going to say that I think that's how they're usually sold, but then it occurred to me they're usually just labeled "marimo balls" no mention of algae or moss. So yes, I agree with Sara, you ABSOLUTELY deserve Algae Pimp #1 status! :hihi: 

Incidentally, Tom, you should join our little group as you clearly have an appreciation for algae :biggrin:

Sara I sure hope you find your boots soon because I'd love to see more pictures! I wish I had a stream near me that I could check out. Alas.


----------



## msjinkzd

This is how I deal with bba:
day 1 (Infested wood added to my Amano holding tank):








Day 3:








day 5:









Oh yea, I am a bone thug algae KILLER


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## Karackle

wow, i guess if you really want to get rid of BBA, amanos are a sure bet! That's pretty amazing!


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## msjinkzd

I should probably mention, I do have an uncommonly huge amount of amanos most of the time, from 50-800 which makes it easy to have them annihilate algae. My local fish friends love me. They bring over plants/decor infested and feed my amanos for me.


----------



## sewingalot

Rachel!!!!! How could you?!?!?  *runs to hide her algae*


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## msjinkzd

*muahahahahahahahahahah*


----------



## bsmith

Est. 1999 is a great album. 

Thanks for adding the bit about the amount of shrimp you have rach. IMO nothing works on algae except Chem warfare!


----------



## PRSRocker3390

Sewingalot - Thanks! Many of the people who buy the marimo balls for non planted tanks usually all come back to thank me for how cool the algae ball looks and how their algae problems have been greatly reduced. Even some planted tank people (customers I've converted to the green side) have bought some saying how much they like them. I truly am pimping out algae! :biggrin:

Karackle - Thanks as well, like I was saying to Sewingalot, many customers really enjoy these. And yes, the marimo balls are also called Cladophora aegagrophila or Cladophora Algae balls. 

I haven't used them myself yet but my idea would be to use them in an almost freshwater refugium like thing. I've helped create something like this before, so I'll share the concept in case you aren't familiar. Some people use a larger HOB preferably, aquaclears work the best it seems to me, then fill it up with the Cladophora algae (like the marimo balls) or possibly even some BBA and other fast growing algae that will flourish and put a separate mini light over it (maybe clamp lamp with cfl or mini aqualight). There are more details and mods but that's the basic concept. By doing this, some people who have tried with non planted tanks say it reduced algae in the tank because the algae could flourish in the "refugium" area better than in the tank. Usually use more intense lighting of course than in the tank to hopefully have the algae grow in those conditions instead of your tank. Regularly trim out some algae. I don't know how beneficially the idea is but I've always though it was a great concept.

Bryan


----------



## sewingalot

PRSRocker - I have a marimo ball and I can tell you that there is clado all over the place in that tank. If I rip it up and compare it to the marimo ball under magnification it is the same type. So, when it starts to grow, itty bitty pieces can go everywhere. But it's pretty. 



sewingalot said:


> Last week:


And the new pictures:





































So not only is it not dying, it's moving to other parts of the wood now (notice the edge in the first two pictures, subtle after just on week, but it's there). BBA ♥s Co2 at this point. I'm going to add another diy bottle and see if I can push levels higher. If I use a ph checker to compare the co2 levels, I am getting 7.4 out of the tap as of this morning and 6.6 in the jar of mystery. But since it is API test kit, I don't know the accuracy. I can only tell you that it does show a noticeable color change.

I just realized this has been going on for 2 months now. I am turning into an official BBA Advocate. Rachel, stay away from my jar.  LOL.


----------



## msjinkzd

i won't sneak into your home to steal amano food 

I actually really like clado. I have to take some pictures of my "clado" log as I am a cultivator as well. Its covered this piece of wood like it was done intentionally


----------



## sewingalot

If you do, I'm sneaking into your house to steal those cories you were telling me about. Just sayin'

You like clado huh? You should join us over on the dark side: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/groups/i-algae.html :hihi:

Does anyone know at what level I am supposed to crank the co2 up to kill the algae? I'm trying to push to that limits. I am seriously debating turning off my pressurized co2 to my tank and routing into the jar. I am that obsessed.


----------



## Karackle

Woah! I guess it sort of did what crypts do in new conditions, melted away a little but then took off once acclimated to the CO2, VERY cool! :hihi: I might have to start "collecting" algae for you and then ship it when there's a few different kinds :hihi: I'm having a small hair algae issue in the 30g which I only mind because it was growing on some of my plants and moss :angry_fire: it's already getting better with extra plant mass in the tank (YAY!) but I can pull some out, throw it in one of these that I have lying around and stick a desk lamp over it if you want me to :hihi: though hair algae might be harder to control so i don't know if you want it in your tank? 

PRS - I've never seen marimo balls labeled as Clado, but that's so interesting to know! I might just have to try one out! :hihi:


----------



## nonconductive

the smiley faces in this post reminded me of Connect Four.


----------



## sewingalot

Kara - totally need to. You start a hair algae tank and I'll start a BBA and clado algae tank. We'll start a new trend. I'm agreeing with nonconductive on this one, your post does look like connect four. :hihi:<-----

I am actually intrigued to see what happens next. It's pretty sad when algae gets me happier than plants today. But I grow it so well!


----------



## Karackle

Hahahaha yes, I have to agree about the connect 4 thing as well! I like the smileys, what can I say? :biggrin: 

Now I'm wondering where this really cool vase I used to have is, because it would be a PERFECT algae tank! Hmmmm.....I wonder if it got lost in the move. Well if I can't find it I can always a) get a new one or 2) use one of my trust ol' kritter keepers :hihi: I was really meaning I would "cultivate" the algae FOR you Sara, but I might just have to start my own algae tank (don't worry, i'm still willing to share! :icon_lol

Things that are new and different (algae growing) always seem a bit more exciting than what we are used to (plant growing) even though we enjoy both, soon enough algae growing will seem "ordinary" to you too and then it should be just about time for your to make your MTS tank roud: (ok i'm totally guessing on that timeline but you know what i mean )

ok.....back to my paper until dinner is ready and then i'm done with that for the night!


----------



## sewingalot

Have you told nonconductive that we know most of the smiley codes? :icon_twis Good luck with that paper. You've been writing it for weeks, haven't you? Cultivate me all the algae you want. Weird thing, no one is sending me that algae they offered me. LOL 

You know me that well, don't you? That MTS is probably months away. Did I tell you I am still trying to finish that light fixture? I was wondering....should I get a crawdaddy for my algae tank? That could be sweet. I wonder how many people know that I am serious about this and actually counting down the days?


----------



## Karackle

hahahaha not WEEKS, but a week.....it's due weds so you probably won't hear from me much the next 2 nights, and not at all tues :hihi:

Well you just let us all know when you've got the algae tank ready to go, and we'll start shipping! (at least I will ) 

a crawdad could be cool.....unless they eat algae! :hihi:


----------



## msjinkzd

I will donate a self cloning cray to you (marmokrebs) fi you want one for your algae tank. They stay a little smaller and are super neat!


----------



## sewingalot

Karackle said:


> hahahaha not WEEKS, but a week.....it's due weds so you probably won't hear from me much the next 2 nights, and not at all tues :hihi:
> 
> Well you just let us all know when you've got the algae tank ready to go, and we'll start shipping! (at least I will )
> 
> a crawdad could be cool.....unless they eat algae! :hihi:


The real question is will you be able to stay of google chat? LOL. You know that I am expecting you to get an A on this paper, right?

I'll let you know, Kara! I am tearing down the tank one of the three tanks left, so I'll have to make a decision on what size of a tank to use. I have a 10, 2.5, 1, .5 gallon to choose from. I also have a 20, but I really need to get rid of it for some extra cash, so I'm not throwing that into the equation. Suggestions?

I think they eat critters: http://www.science.marshall.edu/jonest/Crayfish web page/crayfishes_of_west_virginia.htm



msjinkzd said:


> I will donate a self cloning cray to you (marmokrebs) fi you want one for your algae tank. They stay a little smaller and are super neat!


Cool- thanks, Rachel! That might be the way to go after looking at these fellers from my area - I forgot how big they can get...oops. I should catch em and sell them as WV lobster.  Except this little guy: _*Cambarus veteranus.*_ They are native to this area and are quickly disappearing because of pollution and should be on the endangered list but aren't.


----------



## chad320

I hope I magically discover the worlds best algae eater. I'll name him sarrius spamaeater. Now to start discovering new fish......


----------



## sewingalot

chad320 said:


> I hope I magically discover the worlds best algae eater. I'll name him sarrius spamaeater. Now to start discovering new fish......


*C*an't *H*elp *A*nnoy *D*evastatingly-beautiful-Sara, are you stalking me? Go away and leave us algae lovers in peace, lol. (If you keep posting like this, you'll be spamming more than me, BTW)....And if you name a fish after me that is an algae eater, I'll put your name on both of my boots. :redface:


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## chad320

Haha, maybe thats my goal. I love Spam....and boots  Have you ever done a sunlight algae farm?


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## Karackle

I would go with the 2.5 or the 10, depends how crazy you want to get with scaping it and whether you decide to put a cray in there and how much room they need  roud:

Also, it's too bad those guys aren't on the endangered list then! Too bad the native ones would get too big though, because there are some really beautiful ones! My faves are the _dubius, monongalensis,_ and _rusticus_, unfortunately he's not native, but he is a cool color! Mr. _veteranus_ is pretty too, but of course it's probably best to leave them where they.

msjinkzd - self-cloning?! that is pretty cool. Does that mean you end up with lots of them?


----------



## Karackle

chad320 said:


> I hope I magically discover the worlds best algae eater. I'll name him sarrius spamaeater. Now to start discovering new fish......





sewingalot said:


> *C*an't *H*elp *A*nnoy *D*evastatingly-beautiful-Sara, are you stalking me? Go away and leave us algae lovers in peace, lol. (If you keep posting like this, you'll be spamming more than me, BTW)....And if you name a fish after me that is an algae eater, I'll put your name on both of my boots. :redface:


HAHAHAHAHA this is all brilliant!


----------



## msjinkzd

Karackle said:


> I would go with the 2.5 or the 10, depends how crazy you want to get with scaping it and whether you decide to put a cray in there and how much room they need  roud:
> 
> Also, it's too bad those guys aren't on the endangered list then! Too bad the native ones would get too big though, because there are some really beautiful ones! My faves are the _dubius, monongalensis,_ and _rusticus_, unfortunately he's not native, but he is a cool color! Mr. _veteranus_ is pretty too, but of course it's probably best to leave them where they.
> 
> msjinkzd - self-cloning?! that is pretty cool. Does that mean you end up with lots of them?


Yup! Theoretically  Its very neat. I *gulp* use them as feeders for my big fish and they are also commonly used in medical research. They are a blue/gray color and get about 3" or so, so not as big. Not very fish or planted tank friendly though unfortunately.


----------



## sewingalot

chad320 said:


> Haha, maybe thats my goal. I love Spam....and boots  Have you ever done a sunlight algae farm?


Chad, if that is your goal, LMAO! I've got those algae outdoor pictures for you. I *think* this is cool. It is a mixture of moss, hc, _clado, hair algae _and riccia water that was dumped out last year on the planter right as it was freezing. I thought it would die, but here comes spring and:

























































Karackle said:


> I would go with the 2.5 or the 10, depends how crazy you want to get with scaping it and whether you decide to put a cray in there and how much room they need  roud:
> 
> Also, it's too bad those guys aren't on the endangered list then! Too bad the native ones would get too big though, because there are some really beautiful ones! My faves are the _dubius, monongalensis,_ and _rusticus_, unfortunately he's not native, but he is a cool color! Mr. _veteranus_ is pretty too, but of course it's probably best to leave them where they.
> 
> msjinkzd - self-cloning?! that is pretty cool. Does that mean you end up with lots of them?


Kara, apparently, to even make it to a list, you have to have data to prove there is a threat. If no one does the data (lack of money, interest) it's only a matter of time before the species is wiped off the earth. Really sad considering I used to find dozens of these at my relative's house.

The 10 gallon may be the chosen tank. If I can find the other light given the fact I broke that one this morning...... Those bulbs were expensive, too. Grumble, grr.



msjinkzd said:


> Yup! Theoretically  Its very neat. I *gulp* use them as feeders for my big fish and they are also commonly used in medical research. They are a blue/gray color and get about 3" or so, so not as big. Not very fish or planted tank friendly though unfortunately.


Rachel, do you think they will eat my algae? (OH NO!) I love the idea, I am excited. If I didn't have some remaining shrimp that escaped my net this morning, I'd start working on this today.

By the way, I am excited about seeing your clado tank pictures!

Off topic, but have you ever tried typing with dilated eyes and sunglasses? Fun stuff. roud:


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## chad320

Ahhh.....Saras got a algae farm outside even!!!! Thats is seriously awesome. I was just thinking of live mossing my bonsai tree yesterday. Now I know all that I have to do is dump some moss on it. And I see that damn Riccia still wont die. Haha. I havent "ownwed" any in over a year, buy I still have some somehow???

And are you getting out of the shrimp thing? Or did I read that wrong?


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## sewingalot

Not getting out of the shrimp thing, just moving out a bunch. This sounds horrible (don't kill me!) but I put half a dozen of the painted reds in the 55 gallon and shipped the rest off to another member. I am tearing down a lot of tanks to sell the more expensive equipment (filters, stands, lights, etc) to make some fast cash. If the painted shrimp make it until I can afford to get some stuff back, I'll move them into another tank in the future. If not, I'll call you when things get more stable around here. LOL.

I told you, I love algae. It floats my boat.  That would be cool to do the mossing bonsai tree. If this tells you anything, this completely died off (I thought) in freezing rain, snow and sleet. Yet, as soon as it started getting warm, it took off. Did you notice the hair algae next to the HC? I guess you can't really say the 'dry start method' will keep algae away if you had it to begin with. :hihi:

Yeah, the riccia is so annoying, it even grows over the winter. And I found it in my tank again:










I've been getting smart and waiting until it pearls to fish it out. Much easier to spot. :icon_idea


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## chad320

No worries on the shrimp. You do what works for you. I gotta say it again after looking through the pics again. Your terrestrial mosses are awesome!!!!!!! You should try the emergent scape thing in that tub this summer:thumbsup: You could add some clippings from your tank to grow emergent.


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## Karackle

woah Sara, those outdoor moss / algae pics are totally awesome! It's so cool how it's growing like that! And those are some great photos you took too! roud: What bulb did you break though?! OH NO! And I bet reading/typing with dilated eyes and shades must be quite the adventure :tongue:

chad - i think Sara just meant she doesn't want shrimp in her algae tank because they'll eat it all! :hihi: *edit* ninja'd!

msjinkzd - I'm excited to see the clado pics too!


----------



## Karackle

chad320 said:


> I gotta say it again after looking through the pics again. Your terrestrial mosses are awesome!!!!!!! You should try the emergent scape thing in that tub this summer:thumbsup: You could add some clippings from your tank to grow emergent.


Also I totally agree with this, that would be SO COOL!


----------



## sewingalot

Continuously Had, Glad you are cool on the shrimp. Life stinks sometimes, but we'll focus on the positives to pull through, no? (Kara's been training me, lol.) Like algae and such!

Roger that Chad & Kara. Last year I had clippings of polygonum sp *'K*whateverthatlongwordis' growing around the base of my cherry tree. Do you all like this sort of thing? I'm going to through some of the moss growing in the yard into some water and see what happens. Given the amount of time it spends underwater due to constant storms, it might just grow. :thumbsup:

I'm honestly amazed that the baby tears came back. It makes me wonder if it seeded? Mosses and algae and especially stupid riccia didn't really surprise me. They tend to haunt me everywhere I go, so...

Kara, I don't know WHY I attempted to read with dilated eyes/sunglasses. I was really that bored. After such an adventurous morning/afternoon, the late evening became much too quite.

Hmmm......I wonder if BBA can grow emersed? :icon_eek:


----------



## sewingalot

Double Post - But this is too cool not to share (yeah, I am that bored, waiting sucks). Pearling BBA! Yet the moss just stares at me.....on the plus side, BBA is starting to grow on some of the moss, so it'll be pearling soon. :icon_eek:


----------



## bsmith

Sara are any of those mosses aquatic and if so what are they and would you be willing to send me some? Maybe a trade or whatever. 

Another note I thought I would make about BBA. I find that regardless of even the perfect set up for plants, BBA will find a way to rear its head in a very high light tank. In my 60-p, which has some harder to grows with lots of co2, and high light I find that if I let the water get low and the spray bar causes off gassing that some BBA will appear on my Trithurias leaves. I just fill up the tank and pull off the leaves that are affected but it still pops up from time to time. 

Another side note about BBA. I also find that if it has a substrate to grow on it will pop up even more. Like in my 37g with lots of flow. Before I started fluffing the AS by vacuuming it every month or so lightly with my Python the broken down pieces would become suspended in the WC and land on different surfaces in the tank. Like the equipment, plants and other things. It seemed that on the plants in the lower portion of the tank (less light but also less flow of co2 enriched water) it would pop up regularly. Since the AS fluffing it has been taken care of.


----------



## sewingalot

Most of those mosses came from my tank, fissidens, taiwan, unidentified moss like singapore/java mix. Some is very likely terrestrial the star shaped moss. If you want me to send you some of each, send me a message and I'll trade you for some calcium sticks or you can have it for shipping. Doesn't really matter to me as I was about to pull it all out for the spring planting. (You'll have to clean the dirt off, though. I'm too lazy.)

I've found BBA is the most fascinating algae by far for reasons like you described. High light, low light, high flow, low flow, it'll mess with you. I'm convinced the only way to keep from getting it is to disinfect everything and to have a quarantine grow out tank and disinfect again before putting it in your tank. All you need is one spore of this bad boy to annoy you. And it seems to love organics more than any algae I know. I can gauge when my filters need cleaned just by the amount that shows up.

I've found vacuuming has helped quite a bit when things got really bad. Now, it's just occasionally annoying me. Kind of like - hey, don't you forget about me!


----------



## houseofcards

Sewingalot,

I thought I'd share some BBA Art, brought to you by a friendly neighborhood LFS. Here we have a BBA Java Tree. I guess they had every intention of selling Java Fern, but gave in to the king of all algae. I understand these were slightly reduced for a quick sale. There were many other examples of 'art' throughout the store all at good bargains.


----------



## msjinkzd

Gah!


----------



## sewingalot

Sweetness! I wonder if they'll ship to WV? That is fantastically morbid. (I notice the filter is filthy, too....)


----------



## msjinkzd

BBA's cousin, cladophora:


----------



## sewingalot

Fantastically wicked, Rachel! Wanna sell me some when I get this tank started? It's very pretty!


----------



## msjinkzd

haha, you can have some! I have rolled it to make clado balls (moss balls) but it took too much work. Oddly, it only does this in THIS particular tank. Its gone through many manifestations of stocking from discus (high temp) to an invert only tank. Not sure what the common thread is that makes it so good at growing clado.


----------



## Karackle

oh wow! that clado really is quite lovely!!! Thanks for posting those pics!!! :biggrin:


----------



## sewingalot

Hmm.....maybe it's temperature? The one tank I had problems with it was in the low 80s. Cool. I can't wait to get the clado from you. :biggrin:


----------



## mistergreen

You guys are playing with fire errrr. algae.
Clado is even worse than BBA. They can't be killed except for physical removal or bleach nuke.


----------



## sewingalot

Hush, Mistergreen. Don't hate algae, embrace it! :flick: It'll only be for one tank, and hey, it's pretty.


----------



## mistergreen

I don't hate algae. Just saying... 
Don't forget, you can contaminate other tanks with the beautiful clado pretty easily


----------



## msjinkzd

You know, you woulld think if it was that easy it would have happened to me as I have over 60 tanks going on rack systems, lol. Its ONLY in that tank.


----------



## sewingalot

LOL, good point Mistergreen, but if it gets into the other tanks, I'll ♥ it just the same.  That is cool that it only affects that one tank. Makes me wonder more about what's different now.


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## msjinkzd

its a question i have oft answered, lol. Regardless, it does look quite lovely on the wood and often people compliment it (which cracks me up)


----------



## sewingalot

LOL, here's a snail just for you, Rachel. She has a mohawk, too:










Even my snails like BBA.


----------



## mistergreen

Haha, the BBA is out of hand. If you see it growing on the fish, .........


----------



## chad320

Haha, I was thinking the same thing. Even if she decides she doesnt like it, an Excel dose would kill so much it would crash the tank.


----------



## Rockhoe14er

wow i never knew it was possible to have bba grow on a snail. I like it a lot. I think it look so much more natural.


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## bsmith

Staghorn and BBA, nice! When I get to my CPU I'll post up pics of what I have coined woolypondsnails.


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## Karackle

totally in love with the mohawked snail :hihi: a perfect addition for the algae tank :tongue:


----------



## Karackle

I thought I would post these for my fellow BBA fans, and especially for Sara because this is what you'll be getting from me if you need more BBA  




























enjoy! :biggrin:

also, sorry they're blurry.....my camera is not so good with the macros....i miss my old camera, it was much better....unless i just haven't figured this one out yet?


----------



## Noahma

WOW that makes my outbreak look controlled lol


----------



## itsjustme1966

Very, very interesting thread!! enjoying all the reading.
Im not new here, just dont post alot.
Ive got BBA !! there I feel better now..:icon_mrgr
heck who dosent?
Im new to planted tanks, but not the hobby of 30 yrs plus.
Things were going well with little algae growth. Much was bits of green on DW and glass, also some bottom leaves. So I would trim them off etc..
Plants were growing ok IMO.
Dose excel and little ferts weekly and have used tabs when I introduced new plants to the tank.
Someone then mentioned my lights were old, yes over a yr and half( 2x54W T5 HO) changed up one power glo and waiting the week or so to change the other( Life Glo).
So did that, took out my carbon as I was told it wasnt needed and added a :icon_mad: Hagen Co2x2 non regulated. 
And WHAM !! BBA within 2 days along with rusty red/brown algae that just wipes off...
Sooooo I know what I have to do now... well for one garbage the Co2..
Im removing alot of evrything and starting back up.

I like this comment, and believe it to be true..

Every living thing has a preferred nutrient form. And most have significant alternate metabolic pathways for processing nutrients which are not in optimal form, it just takes more energy to do so. For algae, light is energy. Give it enough light and it will thrive even on the inorganic nutrients we add.


----------



## DarkCobra

sewingalot said:


> LOL, here's a snail just for you, Rachel. She has a mohawk, too:


That is awesome! :hihi:

If only the tufts of hair on my back were considered cute too...


----------



## SkyGrl

DarkCobra said:


> If only the tufts of hair on my back were considered cute too...


:icon_lol::bounce: i chuckled when i read that! for some reason im imagaining BBA in clumps... 

Amy


----------



## nonconductive

Hahah yea I thought that was pretty funny too.


----------



## Karackle

Noahma said:


> WOW that makes my outbreak look controlled lol


Hahaha this isn't really an outbreak as much as a balance, this tank has RIDICULOUSLY low light and the leaves that the BBA is growing on are literally, about 2 years old. The newer the leaves, the less BBA there is. No BBA on the (by comparison) fast growing sunset hygro, much less on the Java ferns than on the anubias and only on that piece of DW, the other side has little to no BBA on the DW, i guess moss won the battle on that piece and BBA won on the piece I posted the picture of :hihi: (you can check out my 30g thread for more pics of the 60g that I posted yesterday and you'll see it's not _completely_ overrunning the tank ) 



DarkCobra said:


> If only the tufts of hair on my back were considered cute too...


HAHAHAHA definitely just had one of those moments where the people around me are probably thinking i'm crazy because I appear to be laughing at nothing :hihi:



SkyGrl said:


> :icon_lol::bounce: i chuckled when i read that! for some reason im imagaining BBA in clumps...


for some reason that is exactly what I pictured too!!! :icon_lol:


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## msjinkzd

sewingalot said:


> LOL, here's a snail just for you, Rachel. She has a mohawk, too:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even my snails like BBA.


WOW! That is exceptional!


----------



## sewingalot

I named her Rachel. :hihi: BBA in the jar is still growing. I think it is getting longer. Maybe it needs a hair cut? I'll get a picture up in a few days.


----------



## plantbrain

"Grasshoppers,
When you have to trim the snail hair, then you have mastered the algae. Until this day, the algae will mastered you."


----------



## bsmith

plantbrain said:


> "Grasshoppers,
> When you have to trim the snail hair, then you have mastered the algae. Until this day, the algae will mastered you."


I completely forgot about the woolyramshorns. Ill get a pic asap!


----------



## Reginald2

dear god, how far we've fallen. lol


----------



## sewingalot

plantbrain said:


> "Grasshoppers,
> When you have to trim the snail hair, then you have mastered the algae. Until this day, the algae will mastered you."


Good one. :icon_mrgr I've actually got a matching set. 



bsmith said:


> I completely forgot about the woolyramshorns. Ill get a pic asap!


I'll wait excitedly.  I don't want to be the only one with hairy snails.



Reginald2 said:


> dear god, how far we've fallen. lol


You think that's bad??? Check out this bad boy. Hydra and BBA.


----------



## bsmith

This is the best I could do. Still trying to figure out the new camera.


----------



## Noahma

I think I am well on my way to mastering the growing and cultivation of BBA, just as I get it controlled in my 36 gal, I look in the very dense planting of my 10 gal and a flourishing colony of BBA is living under my Didlipsis bush! What is even more funny, I have never swapped any plants from the 36 into this tank. So with this tank being 15 feet away from the main tank, and with it being setup completely different I have managed to grow something out of nothing lol At least it is staying in a corner of the tank that is not noticeable by anyone unless you are doing the maintenance on it. I am pretty sure the flow in that corner is bad due to the extreme thickness of the plants in the tank.


----------



## bsmith

Has anyone else noticed that weeping moss seems to grow BBA on it with out any issue and for seemingly no reason?


----------



## msjinkzd

excellent hairy snails, lmao. I love that one is n amed after me!

In honor of your exceptional love of algae, I am sharing iwth you the "green tank". This is the only tank in my fishroom(which gets NO natural light) that does this on and off throughout the year. 

Without further ado, may I present THE GREEN TANK









Also, another clado picture, just cause I like ya so much!


----------



## sewingalot

Nohama, keep it up and join the dark side. We welcome new members, joining is free the only requirement is to have algae in your tank at least once. :icon_twis

Great pictures, bsmith. How does that snail carry around all that BBA? It looks like there is more algae than snail.  I didn't have problems with weeping moss, but my java moss was the prime real estate for BBA. I think in general, algae loves moss. I wonder why that is? When I did have java in the tank, it grew faster than some stems with no algae. Interesting correlation. 

Rachel, love the pictures! When you send me the clado, dip it in that green water tank. :hihi: Rachel junior says she wants to visit your tanks. LOL.

Side note on my experiment. I put too much yeast in the last batch of diy co2. I have a yeasty jar of BBA now. Well, did. I changed out the water and am waiting for the air bubbles to subside for pictures. So the water will have some initial natural fertilizers and I expect to see a growth from that alone. The BBA is growing longer it seems.


----------



## houseofcards

Enough already, throw some Riccia in those tanks. Should help with the uptake. LOL!


----------



## Karackle

awesome pics! LOVING the algae fest! :biggrin:


----------



## sewingalot

houseofcards said:


> Enough already, throw some Riccia in those tanks. Should help with the uptake. LOL!


Neva! Besides, there is riccia in all the tanks hiding in dark corners and even has BBA growing on it. :hihi:



Karackle said:


> awesome pics! LOVING the algae fest! :biggrin:


LOL, Kara. We are odd, aren't we?  By the way, you will be happy to know that I set up the hardscape for the driftwood. Now it's time to find somewhere to collect rocks. I'll get pictures up soon, I promise.


----------



## Karackle

sewingalot said:


> LOL, Kara. We are odd, aren't we?


Hahahaha yes, yes we are, and that's why're awesome :biggrin: :flick: :tongue:



sewingalot said:


> By the way, you will be happy to know that I set up the hardscape for the driftwood. Now it's time to find somewhere to collect rocks. I'll get pictures up soon, I promise.


WOOHOO!!! :bounce: Can't wait to see it! And once it's ready, you know I have some lovely BBA for you :biggrin:


----------



## sewingalot

Haha, Kara and Sara the awesome odd couple of TPT (just like the movie, but we're cuter than those guys, lol). :hihi: 

To compare, I am pulling over this picture from the last growth update.


sewingalot said:


>


And here it is now in the 10 gallon home. Please don't mind the fuzzy picture. I brought home a jar of creek water to let loose some critters/creek algae. :icon_twis I'll get better pictures when the water is more settled. Despite the dirt flying, if you look closely, you can see the parts that were filling in quite nicely. roud:









So this singles the end of my low light phase of the driftwood bba and onto phase two. Low light but with a timer. He has been moved into the 10 gallon. This will have two of the old fashioned incandescent 15 watt bulbs for a while and then I'll move back in the fluorescent kind for phase three of the experiment. 

I got you all some wonderful pictures of my new tank: _Apocalypse N'algae - Appalachian ruins_ (the sequel that went straight to the stores). :biggrin: Sill have to find some more rocks. I gathered a bunch of small pebbles, but couldn't find anything that suited me. But not a bad start. You all just wait until this bad boy is covered in algae and the driftwood is no longer spotless! Everyone will be asking me to scape their tanks to match.  I added in the water conditioner, a pinch of phosphates, nitrates and potassium and magnessium for good measure. I'll add in the iron and csmb tomorrow. Also through in some plant clippings to leach out goodies. Gotta feed my algae! I am not going to provide any co2 for now, just to see what happens. So without anymore delay:


----------



## SkyGrl

looking good!!! your going to pioneer this algea tank thing!!  this will look great. ill send you a bunch of algea soon! :hihi: 

Amy


----------



## Karackle

excellent! this is looking great already! I'm legitimately excited to see this tank grow in, I guess I can send you my algae now! :biggrin: which is good because I have something else for you too 

I like that you put some creek water in there too, should be good for some fun stuff :hihi:


----------



## sewingalot

SkyGrl said:


> looking good!!! your going to pioneer this algea tank thing!!  this will look great. ill send you a bunch of algea soon! :hihi:
> 
> Amy


The complete kit will be sold by my BBA eyelashes, sweater crocheted from hair algae and my snail paintings. :hihi:



Karackle said:


> excellent! this is looking great already! I'm legitimately excited to see this tank grow in, I guess I can send you my algae now! :biggrin: which is good because I have something else for you too
> 
> I like that you put some creek water in there too, should be good for some fun stuff :hihi:


I dosed some iron in there this morning. Yeah, I know it doesn't cause algae, but it sure does seem to help grow it for me. (But we all know that I do everything wrong, so it makes sense, lol.) The rocks I found this afternoon are soaking. I'm afraid they have copper in them, so I'm going to soak them a few days to see if anything leaches out of them.


----------



## Karackle

sewingalot said:


> The complete kit will be sold by my BBA eyelashes, sweater crocheted from hair algae and my snail paintings. :hihi:


can i request a scarf too? :hihi:



sewingalot said:


> The rocks I found this afternoon are soaking. I'm afraid they have copper in them, so I'm going to soak them a few days to see if anything leaches out of them.


Better safe than sorry! roud: I'm assuming this means you have a copper test kit? I didn't know they existed....wonder if I should pick one up...


----------



## msjinkzd

*poke poke*


----------



## SkyGrl

*poke poke*

Amy


----------



## matt12

this is actually awesome!!! i wanna do this now!! lol


----------



## SkyGrl

you should do it! there is a whole new thing that Sara has started! algea scape = AWESOME! 

AMY


----------



## Rockhoe14er

It'd be cool if there was a sunken ship in this aquascape. It kind of reminds me a deep ocean scene.


----------



## nonconductive

cant believe youre really doing it!


----------



## sewingalot

What is this, Rachel and Amy? I am getting poked for pictures? :hihi: Not much to see in a week's time, but I'll share what I got. 

Bad news. First set of rocks leach major copper. I was expecting so. Oh, Kara, yes I have a test kit. API, so not many people like the accuracy, but this isn't for a nobel, so it works enough for my needs. :icon_mrgr

I had to upgrade the bulbs to flourescents yesterday. The incandescent 15 were getting WAY too hot. So there is a couple of older (1 1/2 years old) 10 watt bulbs in there now.

Ocean, huh? Poor me. It's supposed to look like the foot hills around here. Perhaps with more time, it'll look more like it. If not, I'll throw in my pirate skeletons and call it a day. LOL

Non-c, never doubt a person with a lot of time on her hands. I'm proving a point here. And funny thing is......I don't remember what it was. Oh, yeah. Algae causes algae! That's it. I think.....

Pictures for you all. Some closeups of the wall crud (algae necklace beads), a few of the algaes in the tank now, and my dry start "algae-free" (I wish) setup. Enjoy my madness:




























I hope Rachel improves. I actually put in a chunk of plaster of paris for her to work on that poor shell. Still looking for her brother, but I am afraid he's missing. I'll keep looking.









BBA, clado, hair:









Cool diatoms on the silicone from the creek:









Heater is a nice gathering spot, diatoms and hair showing up on the wood finally:









With the diatoms and gunk off this driftwood, you can actually see the pretty BBA (by the way, ramshorns WILL eat BBA  No worries, I added more leaf clippings and threw in some algae wafers to fill them up. 










And that's really it for those...not much to show after a week. But give it time! 

Onto the dry start method. I can't win. LOL.


----------



## nonconductive

sewingalot said:


> What is this, Rachel and Amy? I am getting poked for pictures? :hihi: Not much to see in a week's time, but I'll share what I got.


tasting your own medicine?

your ramshorns eat bba? maybe you should have them come teach mine a lesson.


----------



## Karackle

looking cool! looks like the flame moss is still doing well too! amazing! Can't believe you've got other algaes on the wood already! LOVE IT! 

I think i must have missed it in another thread.....what tank are you doing dry start in? (i'll go explore)


----------



## SkyGrl

OOOOOOoo|OOOO i want an algea necklace!!! this would be wickid!! nice to see y our algea coming along so nicely! my ramshorns dont eat algea!!! what the heck! im sending mine off to saras private snail school... :hihi: 

i like that green looking shrimp! major coolness factor. i think this is the coolest tank on TPT. who else has done this? NOONE! who else will? the rest of the crazy ppl on here :hihi: 

hahaha dont like gettin poked? to bad! it was AGES since you posted an updated algea pic.. :tounge: 

Amy


----------



## Solid

THIS IS MADNESS! Someone needs a BIG bottle of excel for their B-day!

I bet those shrimp and snails are happy though, all the algae and diatoms they can eat. As long as they don't anger the algae god.


----------



## nonconductive

Solid said:


> As long as they don't anger the algae god.


 
I believe this god to be a red haired female.


----------



## sewingalot

nonconductive said:


> tasting your own medicine?
> 
> your ramshorns eat bba? maybe you should have them come teach mine a lesson.


Haha, I am just kind of shocked people are following this. Not all of them, just the starving ones. Here is the jerk that's decimating my algae. 












Karackle said:


> looking cool! looks like the flame moss is still doing well too! amazing! Can't believe you've got other algaes on the wood already! LOVE IT!
> 
> I think i must have missed it in another thread.....what tank are you doing dry start in? (i'll go explore)


The flame moss is growing faster than the bba right now. I'm going to hook up some co2 if this doesn't speed up.

No journal on them - I have those little plastic shoe box containers (thanks, Zapins for the great idea) all over the house sporting bits and pieces of plants. I put my hair/clado algae covered HC in this one hoping the algae would die over a year ago. Not the case, it's flourishing. This actually began my fascination with algae. When you fail at even the dry start method, something is wrong with you, lol.



SkyGrl said:


> OOOOOOoo|OOOO i want an algea necklace!!! this would be wickid!! nice to see y our algea coming along so nicely! my ramshorns dont eat algea!!! what the heck! im sending mine off to saras private snail school... :hihi:
> 
> i like that green looking shrimp! major coolness factor. i think this is the coolest tank on TPT. who else has done this? NOONE! who else will? the rest of the crazy ppl on here :hihi:
> 
> hahaha dont like gettin poked? to bad! it was AGES since you posted an updated algea pic.. :tounge:
> 
> Amy


I've had a poke war with this one guy on facebook for over a year now. I can take it. There is only one thing you can do to make me truly mad and I can never imagine someone as sweet as you doing such a thing. I'm pretty laid back.....if you couldn't tell with my algae embracing. :icon_mrgr

Haha, that green shrimp is actually a blue pearl shrimp. I think it's from his recent algae diet that's giving him that hue, lol. :hihi:

I only charge shipping and handling charges and a piece of algae for private lessons on shrimp training.  I'm working on an internet based course as we speak.

The algae necklaces will be available in our gift shop next to the sweaters, scarves, eyelashes and of course, the snail art. There will be a sale for Memorial Day, so start saving up. :icon_cool



Solid said:


> THIS IS MADNESS! Someone needs a BIG bottle of excel for their B-day!
> 
> I bet those shrimp and snails are happy though, all the algae and diatoms they can eat. As long as they don't anger the algae god.


Ahem.....I believe you are looking for the BBA haters thread. It is stickied on the top of this forum. 

I am allergic to excel, lol. Makes me.....sick.

Don't forget about my little endlers! I have to feed them, too. Anyone know how to make green water? I've tried the lettuce in a glass of water placed by a sunny window and nada.



nonconductive said:


> I believe this god to be a red haired female.


Hush, you. People aren't supposed to know that I am the algae princess. I'm trying to lure them in before spreading my algae out onto the world for complete domination.  (Did I mention I have stock in Seachem?)


----------



## Karackle

I'll take an algae necklace with matching algae earrings and that piece of snail art I preordered :hihi: 

Also, very cool, how are the "dry start" boxes working out? Are you just cultivating the plants that were growing in your flower pots outside from the tank water you dumped in them?

how are all the new fishies doing?


----------



## sewingalot

I'll get to work on those earrings right away. I'll have to turn the lights on earlier just to cultivate some for you. :hihi: The ones that I made originally indoors are doing well. A little bit of bga every now and then, but mostly algae free. I just use cheap top soil. The outdoor garden is getting rained out. Just moss at this point. And not sure how much is aquatic any more.

The new fish are doing well, except they are eating my smaller fish and all but one cherry shrimp is MIA. Either they threw themselves in the filter to escape or they are dinner. Thanks for asking!

Oh and you guys, where is my algae you all promised me? Not one single fluff of BBA has arrived in my mailbox as of yet.


----------



## houseofcards

See now BBA in a keychain that I can live with. It would probably live forever, thus the *Forever Yours BBA Keychain* is born.


----------



## SkyGrl

customs has yours from me... LOL

Amy


----------



## nonconductive

houseofcards said:


> See now BBA in a keychain that I can live with. It would probably live forever, thus the *Forever Yours BBA Keychain* is born.


 
haha ill take one.



sewingalot said:


> Oh and you guys, where is my algae you all promised me? Not one single fluff of BBA has arrived in my mailbox as of yet.


ill be sending mine soon.


----------



## Karackle

payday is this friday, so keep an eye on your mailbox early next week :hihi:


----------



## plantbrain

Stories of BBA from days of Yore: Steve figured he could kill the BBA on his rocks if he took it out and cooked it in the sun on the back porch. "Okay, I'll buy into that Steve." Well, a few weeks turned into months. Six, to be exact.
"Hey Tom, remember those rocks?" "Yessuum!", "well, they still have the BBA on them even after 6 months being dry!"

Seems the BBA spores can handle and should if you think about seasonal streams.......several months of dry hot heat, just like they are exposed to in nature.

Took a little while to get growing again, but not that long.

I do not know the min light level for BBA to grow, but I suspect it's 2-3x less than any plant.

So a key chain will some water and BBA sealed, ought to last a while.


----------



## mistergreen

plantbrain said:


> Stories of BBA from days of Yore: Steve figured he could kill the BBA on his rocks if he took it out and cooked it in the sun on the back porch. "Okay, I'll buy into that Steve." Well, a few weeks turned into months. Six, to be exact.
> "Hey Tom, remember those rocks?" "Yessuum!", "well, they still have the BBA on them even after 6 months being dry!"
> 
> Seems the BBA spores can handle and should if you think about seasonal streams.......several months of dry hot heat, just like they are exposed to in nature.
> 
> Took a little while to get growing again, but not that long.
> 
> I do not know the min light level for BBA to grow, but I suspect it's 2-3x less than any plant.
> 
> So a key chain will some water and BBA sealed, ought to last a while.


ANother explanation is the BBA spores are in the tank and recolonized the rocks. They love growing on rocks and other algae.


----------



## SuperWen

excess macro nutrients especially Phosphates will caused BBA too
seachem excel, azoo carbon +, H2O2, diluted laundry bleach, diluted accu zuur will kill them. the last three items are not recommended if you have inhabitants in tank.


----------



## bsmith

SuperWen said:


> excess macro nutrients especially Phosphates will caused BBA too
> seachem excel, azoo carbon +, H2O2, diluted laundry bleach, diluted accu zuur will kill them. the last three items are not recommended if you have inhabitants in tank.


Not true at all. How can you prove that?


----------



## SuperWen

bsmith said:


> Not true at all. How can you prove that?


some link about algae says like that
Honestly I never try the experiment about this, would you? 
Try to double/triple dose your phosphates on EI and see what will happen LOL


----------



## bsmith

The link is old, as is the myth.


----------



## Noahma

bsmith said:


> The link is old, as is the myth.


to expand on this. Tom Barr pioneered a method of fertilization that is intentionally providing an excess of fertilizers into the water column. I think it would be safe to say that a majority of us are now using his method called EI or Estimative indexing for our daily fert. regimen. Phosphates are among one of the ferts dosed into the tank. I for one can say that it has not increased the amount of algae in either of my tanks. what does increase algae in my tanks is when I start messing with the co2 or light intensity.


----------



## bsmith

Noahma said:


> to expand on this. Tom Barr pioneered a method of fertilization that is intentionally providing an excess of fertilizers into the water column. I think it would be safe to say that a majority of us are now using his method called EI or Estimative indexing for our daily fert. regimen. Phosphates are among one of the ferts dosed into the tank. I for one can say that it has not increased the amount of algae in either of my tanks. what does increase algae in my tanks is when I start messing with the co2 or light intensity.


I let my friends on the site expand for me when they know I dont feel like it. :thumbsup:


----------



## sewingalot

You guys are funny.  I'll put the BBA keychain on my list of crafts to do.

Does anyone know if coal is safe for shrimp? I found a bunch looking for rocks today and would love to use a piece or two. What if there is a rock is full of iron?


----------



## SkyGrl

i wouldn't trust it!

Amy


----------



## mistergreen

It depends on the coal. If it's graphite, it should be fine but the other coals have hydrocarbons and sulfur.


----------



## sewingalot

It's iron coal. I found it in a creek with fish if that helps.


----------



## mistergreen

Ask around the local coal mining places to see what's in iron coal. Being in a stream where water is constantly being changed is a different environment than an aquarium.


----------



## Rockhoe14er

for a while my phosphates were close to 10 ppm and i never have had problems with BBA.


----------



## sewingalot

I have it tossed in a bucket of water and will maybe put in a pond snail to see what happens if they don't leech copper and see what happens. I was thinking maybe epoxy might be another idea. It wouldn't be algae apocalypse appalachian ruins without a chunk of coal. Probably full of arsenic and mercury....


----------



## mistergreen

Arsenic and mercury is what we put into the mining process, I believe. That's how it is with gold. It makes separation easier.


----------



## sewingalot

Good to know. I do know the air is full of sulfur and nitrogen when the power plants are churning (every day) Acid rain is a big problem in this area. You can drive up route 2 and see the acid burned/dead trees.


----------



## redmary51

Fahnell said:


> Brothers & Sisters
> BBA can be eradicated in an instant. Without expensive stuff
> I have only but ONLY overstocked tanks and no BBA
> I did have it in kilos when i had internal filters. All was solved with 3 big sponges and a cheap Hailea pump
> My pal at my local fish store keeps constanty 300 tetras in 100 liters of water. And they do not have Canisters ..only sponges.
> Try that and 30% WC a week for 1 month and we talk ok?...and by the way. Get a big driftwood for a big load of tannis
> That is my template and belive we i do not know what algae is. My RCS are starving bc of that


Maybe I jumped in here too soon as I have not read all the way thru this post yet, but I have a low tech tank with driftwood and lots of tannins -- and lots of BBA.


----------



## SkyGrl

must be an imbalance somewhere. sadly we have discovered that BBA grows in every water condition... so embrace it, groom it, scape it. 


why worry when you have a great tank already!  

Amy


----------



## sewingalot

redmary51 said:


> Maybe I jumped in here too soon as I have not read all the way thru this post yet, but I have a low tech tank with driftwood and lots of tannins -- and lots of BBA.


Welcome, Mary! This is the mythbuster's thread of BBA.

Pretty much the point of this thread is that BBA is not the end of the world, you can have a nice tank with some algae in it. Other than manual removal, not introducing it in the first place, or chemical warfare (H2O2, excel), complete darkness to the point you kill everything else, none of the solutions presented have worked for me.

I've had it growing in the following:
Low flow
High flow
No flow
High light
Low light
High Nutrients
No Added Nutrients
High Co2
Low Co2
No Co2
Tannins
No Tannins
Alkaline
Acidic

The one consistent thing I have found? There is no consistency. So my suggestion is this. Gather it up in a nice baggie, stick it in an envelope and send it to me to reside in my algae abode. :biggrin:


----------



## SkyGrl

sewingalot said:


> Gather it up in a nice baggie, stick it in an envelope and send it to me to reside in my algae abode. :biggrin:


:hihi::icon_idea

Amy


----------



## sewingalot

LOL, Amy. So far, the rocks aren't leaching anything into the water column. And the snails are doing well, so far, so good. Still waiting another week or more before I test it with a shrimp.

Good news! I have my first hair algae showing up! And I am finally getting a bacteria bloom. Nothing like leaving the lights on for 10 hours a day, huh?


----------



## SkyGrl

?!?!?!? 10 hours!!! you're growing mutants!!!!!


Amy


----------



## msjinkzd

I thought of you the other day. I "adopted" a tank full of plants all infested wiht multiple strains of bba/hair algaes. I almost send you an algae care package.


----------



## sewingalot

I guess I should subscribe to this so I see updates, no? I keep forgetting you all are actually following along. Rachel, send it to 1258 Middle of Nowhere Lane, Hicktown USA. 

Here are pictures of the tank. No full tank shot, I forgot, lol. My rocks are still soaking. A little intimidated about putting them in the tank. No change in ph, hardness or copper, so I am thinking it might be okay. Giving them a little longer, though just to be safe.

Rachel 2 is getting really fluffy. Her mohawk needs styled, but she just woke up, so it's a little mussed:









Francine (is this her name, I forgot) the driftwood is starting to perk up a bit too:









BBA rock band (don't cha love my lame jokes? :hihi



























And a random shot of the BGA in my 55 because I know you all will love it. I've been trying to figure out if cyano is my enemy or friend. Right now, I don't like it which is making me like it.


----------



## sewingalot

Got a full tank shot! Don't you love the turbidity of the water? That's our creek water.  I've been topping off with it.


----------



## SkyGrl

looks good. i like the darker water look. we did that with our piranhas when we first started but it would sometimes get way to dark... then we couldnt see them. its so cool you can just go to the creek grab a pail and do a water change. 

Amy. 

i have been lurking on your other threads too even if i havent been posting.. i just have time for a quick read.. easter weekend its so darn busy. but deep fried turkey changed my love of turkey and made it into an obsession!


----------



## sewingalot

I am trying everything to get this bacteria bloom into a full green water and nothing is working. I've even thrown in have dead plants and nothing. If there were no fauna, I'd dump miracle grow in there. That would be kind of awesome to get the water that dark, but I have a feeling the husband wouldn't want a mud tank in the living room. 

Okay, you are eating fried turkey? I wonder if it's anything like fried chicken....


----------



## SkyGrl

no way! its way better!!! you must try it. google it. its amazing... ive never made green water before... i cant believe you want some!!?!?!? LOL Happy Easter Sara

Amy


----------



## mistergreen

If you want green water, mucho light and a little NH3/4 work best.


----------



## SamandAnne

yikes! just looking at those pics made something inside me cringe...me taking a break from pulling out driftwood and scraping off the BBA to read about it. Glad you're having fun! :hihi:


----------



## PRSRocker3390

I'm glad this thread is still going strong and also the nice BBA growth on the snails too! I'm actually kind of giving in to my 75 gallon and am redoing it one more time lol. I'm putting in new sand substrate (flourite black seems to be my winner), putting in new driftwood, still keeping it low light with only 3 x 32 watt T8 bulbs over it, but the major change will be the addition of a koralia 550 and 750 along with my current XP3, and I think I'm planning on putting pressurized co2 on a low light tank. I figure this may get rid of any limiting factors hopefully that caused my original tank algae demise. I just need to figure out a nice dry fert dosing schedule for my tank. I'm still aiming at the limited water change type of low tech, just adding co2 now. I mean I could pump 30 ppm of co2 in there but if the lighting isn't that strong enough to make the plants demand that high co2 concentration, I should be pretty set with no big limiting factor assuming ferts are all in order too, correct?

Don't worry, I still have BBA in another tank, this is just my big rescape and redo of my 75 in an effort to see if I found the reason for my BBA problems.


----------



## sewingalot

PRSRocker! Glad to see you are still around. Since everything I have tried with the exception of Excel has failed in killing BBA, I don't know the answer to your questions. But I wish you the best of luck and if you do get positive results, please post them here!

Got some cool BBA algae from nonconductive! The BBA is actually a different color than mine. More black than gray/green. Will make a lovely addition. I need to find some stick pins to anchor the leaves down. Right now they are floating around in the current.  And since everyone loves pictures:

This one is named Luftballon.









Bob:









Alfred:









(Side note, isn't this repens nonc sent surrounding the BBA leaf lovely?)









And to show how healthy this tank is - baby shrimp and snail eggs!









There is more, but I won't bore you all to tears......yet. Oh, and I found more driftwood that has been out of water over a year now that was covered in BBA when removed. I have added it back to water to see what happens. Not in this tank yet.


----------



## PRSRocker3390

Yeah I figured my tank is going to be another BBA experiment cause I agree, unless its something like excel or H2O2, I've yet to figure out what makes BBA tick.


----------



## sewingalot

Haha, I even have BBA that is invincible to H2O2 unless I used such a high concentration that it kills the plants too. It's evil and that is why I like it. If have found one weakness for BBA, though and it doesn't involve chemicals, co2 or nutrients! It doesn't seem to fair well in lower Kelvins! I'm going to try and repeat the experiment, and I'd be interested if anyone else notices this.


----------



## Jeff5614

sewingalot said:


> Haha, I even have BBA that is invincible to H2O2 unless I used such a high concentration that it kills the plants too. It's evil and that is why I like it. If have found one weakness for BBA, though and it doesn't involve chemicals, co2 or nutrients! It doesn't seem to fair well in lower Kelvins! I'm going to try and repeat the experiment, and I'd be interested if anyone else notices this.


Now, Sara, everyone knows that algae growth has absolutely nothing to do with the light spectrum :biggrin: . Or maybe it does?

Here's a quote from Dennerle's website.

"In order to flourish, aquarium plants need plenty of light from the red colour range, with only a minimal blue component and minimal or no UV radiation. Algae, on the other hand, thrive above all in blue light and a high UV component. Algae have lived in water throughout their entire evolutionary process, during which they have been exposed for the most part to strong, direct sunlight and ultra-violet light. Most aquarium plants, however, originated from tropical forests. They have thus adapted to the light conditions in the shade of dense tree populations. UV light and light in the blue range is filtered by natural means here."

And here's one from ADA.

"While many plant grow lights emit red light, red light diminishes rapidly in water and therefore is not very effective in growing aquatic plants. As it turns out, a blue light passes through water very well and promotes the photosynthesis and growth of aquatic plants."

Am I reading these wrong or do the two contradict each other?


----------



## sewingalot

Hush, Jeff. I am just showing my observation, not saying to try it cause we all know I am secretly trying to spread BBA around to everyone. And for what it is worth, there is a lot of scientific data on how higher kelvins penetrate light further and therefore, helps grow algae. Correlation? Probably. But interesting enough for me to test. A few books I've been reading. 

http://books.google.com/books?id=Sc...snum=10&ved=0CGUQ6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=WY...EwAA#v=onepage&q=red algae and kelvin&f=false


----------



## Jeff5614

I'm interested to know what the actual answer is. I just remembered reading that both Dennerle and ADA promote their bulbs as putting out a spectrum that supposedly doesn't promote the growth of algae and after reading them again they seem to contradict each other.


----------



## sewingalot

Yea, what is funny is I am reading below 10k promotes green algae and 10k and above seems to promote red algae. Go figure. I am starting to think the real answer is there is no real answer except chemical warfare.

But hey, I'm having fun debunking myths. :hihi:


----------



## Jeff5614

I'll stick with the green stuff.


----------



## sewingalot

I thought that, but now I have green algae in my 55 and dying BBA. Fun times. I am trying out the MCI method again. It worked until I got to the second step and algae came back. I like to try everything at least three times before I give up and move onto something else.


----------



## Karackle

looking good!!!! I'm totally loving watching this tank grow in :hihi: 

I PROMISE i'll send you an algae package soon! I just gotta find that dog toy....


----------



## GaMeR

I'm a BBA grower too! I have those little bouquets of love on my substrate, glass and plants.. 

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2319/algae.jpg


----------



## nonconductive

GaMeR said:


> bouquets of love
> http://img94.imageshack.us/i/algae.jpg/


lol... maybe i will give some to my wife for her birthday.


----------



## sewingalot

GaMeR said:


> I'm a BBA grower too! I have those little bouquets of love on my substrate, glass and plants..
> 
> http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2319/algae.jpg


LOL, love it. Welcome to the club, join our happy misery. :icon_mrgr Bouquets of love, great description! roud:

Kara, the dogs are hiding that toy. I think they are BBA haters. Nonc- you might want to stick with flowers, lol. Hmmm......bouquet.....I have an idea.


----------



## nonconductive

but its better than flowers because its made with love.


----------



## sewingalot

Oh the light Kelvins myth is now able to be busted. Haha, I went to change the water in the large tank tonight and found nice little new tufts of BBA growing happily beside the hair algae and GSA. And by the way, phosphates are super low in that tank right now. Around 1 ppm or so on a given day, 0 by water change day. So much for that not being the problem. Haha, I am finding more ways to grow algae instead of ways to kill it.

Not algae, but the BGA (cyanobacteria) is gone out of the tank. I invested 98 cents in a new bottle of hydrogen peroxide and 30 ml completely wiped out the BGA in a matter of three days. I dosed 10 ml each day on 1/3 of the front of the tank and by the fourth day, it was gone. I am thinking that H2O2 doesn't last much past the time you open it. I used nearly a whole bottle and it didn't do a thing. This new bottle worked like magic. I was literally watching it bubble the BGA into oblivion. And the front of my tank is cleaner too. roud:

How in the world do you all with low light tanks take decent pictures? Between the diatoms, the lights and the tanins, I am having a really hard time getting any decent shots. 



nonconductive said:


> but its better than flowers because its made with love.


Haha, so if I made a picture out of duckweed and snail shells and told the husband it was made with love, do you think I'd get out of buying him an anniversary gift? :icon_mrgr

Speaking of bouquets of love, I super-glued the algae you sent into a nice center piece for your table:









Here is a snail I got from Cardinal Tetra. Isn't she fantastic? 









Clado, hair and diatoms roud::









My pal is growing on new rocks now, not just added ones!


----------



## nonconductive

hahaha those leaves are awful looking. glad you can enjoy them.

if my wife made me one, i would be happy but can't say it would work the other way around.


----------



## sewingalot

Aren't they garishly beautiful? The snails are breaking the leaves down fast. I'm surprised at the quick work. I like watching them strip it to skeletal shapes.  I figured the leaves are leaching out plenty of tasties for the algae to snack on too.

I should save your wife some money and send her a copy of this statement of yours. I actually asked the husband this morning on his way out the door about the homemade gift and he said no dice. Haha. Used to be in the early years he'd lie and tell me he'd love it. Now we've been married enough that I get to know his real thoughts. Boy do I sometimes miss the first five years. :hihi:


----------



## plantbrain

sewingalot said:


> Yea, what is funny is I am reading below 10k promotes green algae and 10k and above seems to promote red algae. Go figure. I am starting to think the real answer is there is no real answer except chemical warfare.
> 
> But hey, I'm having fun debunking myths. :hihi:


Perhaps in Marine systems.


----------



## plantbrain

sewingalot said:


> Oh the light Kelvins myth is now able to be busted. Haha, I went to change the water in the large tank tonight and found nice little new tufts of BBA growing happily beside the hair algae and GSA. And by the way, phosphates are super low in that tank right now. Around 1 ppm or so on a given day, 0 by water change day. So much for that not being the problem. Haha, I am finding more ways to grow algae instead of ways to kill it.
> 
> Not algae, but the BGA (cyanobacteria) is gone out of the tank. I invested 98 cents in a new bottle of hydrogen peroxide and 30 ml completely wiped out the BGA in a matter of three days. I dosed 10 ml each day on 1/3 of the front of the tank and by the fourth day, it was gone. I am thinking that H2O2 doesn't last much past the time you open it. I used nearly a whole bottle and it didn't do a thing. This new bottle worked like magic. I was literally watching it bubble the BGA into oblivion. And the front of my tank is cleaner too. roud:


Yes, more ways to grow than kill eh?
Easier than plants, but harder to keep going.

I think H2O2 is under rated really, it's very cheap, plenty on line about it.

Still, the core issue is really horticulture of plants, then algae is less of an issue. Like a garden that's weed free and well tended.

Good care of the plants, good aesthetic pruning etc. These algae are interesting in many ways and we all have different interest at different times in this hobby. At some point, many start to think about gardening, some never do.

We can certainly say both or all types of approaches have their merits. But what really satisfies you sewingalot??

What is it from the aquarium do you really want and seek?
Is it a understanding of all thing algae? This will make you very good at helping others and fixing issues.

Can it make you a good grower of plants as well? I believe so. Will it reduce your fear of algae? Certainly. I think these are questions *we all ask* at some point or the other.

Keep on growingroud:


----------



## sewingalot

Hydrogen peroxide is amazing, isn't it? It is a great fix for a temporary solution. For what it is worth, after decimating the BGA, I increased the flow in that area of the tank and added more nitrates, so I am working on a long term fix, but sometimes a bandaid is great to get you over the inital problems as long as you are working on a permanent solution. Then again, some never get passed the bandaids. That's cool. Whatever works for them to keep them in the hobby. roud:



plantbrain said:


> We can certainly say both or all types of approaches have their merits. But what really satisfies you sewingalot??


Oh, if you only knew, Tom. Funny my husband asks me this same question. By the way, feel free to call me Sara (sewingalot, hillbilly works, to). I've annoyed you enough that I think you are more than entitled to address me by my given name. 



> What is it from the aquarium do you really want and seek?
> Is it a understanding of all thing algae? This will make you very good at helping others and fixing issues.


I really just want to show people the same thing you do. To not be afraid of algae and focus on having healthy fish and plants. If it helps people to realize that I can grow pretty plants next to my algae, I'll keep sharing. Whereas it is fantastic many are capable of having an algae free tank, I am realizing I will never be in this class. I am lazy at times, I let my filter get dirty, I overfeed, I forget to fertilize, I leave clippings stuck to the intake, my co2 diffuser gets clogged, etc. I can't blame the method of fertilizing because it's the whole system I am always tinkering with and screwing up. I proved that by sticking with the both PPS Pro and the EI method for a while and getting good results. But sure enough, I slacked off and my algae problems crept back up. The failure in me wanted to blame the methods, but when I sat down and when over my notes (yes I keep notes on my tanks because I am a nerd), I found one consistent problem: my inconsistency.



> Can it make you a good grower of plants as well? I believe so. Will it reduce your fear of algae? Certainly. I think these are questions *we all ask* at some point or the other.
> 
> Keep on growingroud:


Truthfully, I recently heard back from a fellow member on plants I sent and he asked me where all this algae was. I think he was surprised that I sent him relatively algae-free stems. Not to brag, but I can grow plants quite well most of the time. I would grow plants inches a week and threw away pounds of plants a month, but BBA and GSA kept creeping up. No matter what, it's always there looking for an opportunity to take hold. Simply put, algae fascinates me. Something that is responsible for most of our oxygen deserves some respect.

After all, have you every seen a sexier silhouette than BBA in the sunlight?









And for the record, Amy now has my utmost respect for algae growing (I am humbled by my little specks of bba):


----------



## sewingalot

plantbrain said:


> Perhaps in Marine systems.


By the way, I thought I came up with something clever giving the research I've done on red algae and it's preference for blue spectrum. I guess it is like food. I would _prefer _to eat steak and potatoes, but bologna will still give me energy.


----------



## SkyGrl

LOL im glad you like it Sara! it is pretty epic i gotta say. it was the only BBA in the tank for a year at least... maybe thats why its so large!

Amy


----------



## Karackle

tank is looking so awesome!!! I promise to get my algae package out to you soon. I discovered a few different good clumps of some none-BBA algaes for you  I won't be offended if they don't all end up in the tank if they don't work with the scape, but you're getting all of them :hihi:


----------



## sewingalot

SkyGrl said:


> LOL im glad you like it Sara! it is pretty epic i gotta say. it was the only BBA in the tank for a year at least... maybe thats why its so large!
> 
> Amy


It's like the Elvis of the 70s. :hihi: It is pretty. That's what I am imagining the 'lawn to look like in the future.



Karackle said:


> tank is looking so awesome!!! I promise to get my algae package out to you soon. I discovered a few different good clumps of some none-BBA algaes for you  I won't be offended if they don't all end up in the tank if they don't work with the scape, but you're getting all of them :hihi:


Are you kidding? This is an algae lovers paradise. Not one scrap of algae will be rejected, all can seek refuse from the haters of algae. I told Earl if I were to die suddenly, I want him to maintain my algae tank if nothing else. Haha.

Last picture update on the driftwood:









Today:








And this new luscious growth is with _zero _nutrients added to the water column. Cool, huh? By the way for anyone interested, phosphates are registering zero on the API test kits, yes it's been calibrated, but don't hold me to this figures in a lab. I hear API isn't the greats for accuracy. But it works for my little tank and observations.


Sorry for the crappy picture, I am having a hard time getting decent pictures recently. I am working on that one for you people who follow my madness.


----------



## mistergreen

It looks like it's hurting with the light coloring... Didn't you say your hubby dumped in excel or H2O2?

I can't stand the stuff. It looks like rat covered plants, rocks, and other stuff.


----------



## sewingalot

mistergreen said:


> It looks like it's hurting with the light coloring... Didn't you say your hubby dumped in excel or H2O2?
> 
> I can't stand the stuff. It looks like rat covered plants, rocks, and other stuff.


The excel was going in the 55 gallon at 1/4 the dose. I was testing to see if it is enough to get rid of the algae. However, the SAE is doing such a great job that we've stopped adding it. This tank gets no treatment. I'm cultivating algae not trying to kill it. 

Nope, not hurting, the photo sucked. Here is a better one. I plugged in a lamp to get a better quality. The new flourescent lights I am using are yellow, so it makes everything look strange. It is actually growing in nicely. I measure it monthly. I have found the color of bba will change depending on the light levels and settings on the camera. :biggrin:










And more pictures:


















Green algae is finally showing up on the other driftwood. 









Follow the leader:


----------



## mistergreen

Oooh, the SAE is eating the BBA?


----------



## sewingalot

He is eating that and the hair algae. Awesome dude. I actually don't have a lot of algae left in the 55 after having him for only since Friday. I swear, he must have a belly ache.


----------



## Karackle

algae is looking awesome! :biggrin: just wait til you get mt package, it will add some variety to your algae species :hihi: 

glad to hear the SAE is doing his job in the tank you want cleansed of algae, just keep him away from this tank!!!  :icon_lol:

Also, I love this picture









follow the leader!!! ROFL!


----------



## redmary51

What kind of shrimp are those?


----------



## bsmith

So this thread is now about showing our war wounds from this unrelenting algae. We know that it cares less about lighting, either low or high, nutrients dont seem to be any help either. It seems that higher flow areas are better suited to acquire BBA. Peroxide, excel and manual removal are the best methods of getting rid of it. 

Am I missing anything?


----------



## sewingalot

Not to fear, the SAE is safely away from the 10 gallon. :hihi: Everyday he is eating more and more. This guy is amazing.



redmary51 said:


> What kind of shrimp are those?


Blue pearl shrimp. The blondes look yellow from the tannins, but they eventually turn blue as well.



bsmith said:


> So this thread is now about showing our war wounds from this unrelenting algae. We know that it cares less about lighting, either low or high, nutrients dont seem to be any help either. It seems that higher flow areas are better suited to acquire BBA. Peroxide, excel and manual removal are the best methods of getting rid of it.
> 
> Am I missing anything?


This thread has pretty much been about nothing but learning to accept algae. But so far, that is what I have found out, yes. I really think the ultimate goal to beating is to focus on the plants, get them growing well and remove as much algae as possible by manual or chemical means. I am finding one other thing that it doesn't seem to appreciate, though. Cool temperatures. I think it slows the growth dramatically.


----------



## kcrossley

I've had ongoing issues with BBA. I've found that it seems to like my anubias and anything lower growing. In fact, I just got finished removing all of my plants, cutting the BBA off the lower portions of my taller plants and replanting everything.

I've tried H2O2 dips an Excel baths, but it always ruins the fiber structure of my plants. I've yet to try dosing Excel, but that might be my next move. Has anyone found anything that will eat BBA? I've heard good and bad things about SAEs.


----------



## sewingalot

Sorry, kcrossley, I ain't helping you destroy my best friend. Muhahahaha. 

SAEs are good, but just like everything else a bandaid. Excel works great and so does fresh H2O2. But spot treat it only, don't do the dip.

Pictures for anyone that cares! Got some amazing algae (hair, clado, bba) from Kara that I've been meaning to share.























































No detectable phosphates, ammonia, nitrites or nitrates on API tests. Looks like algae lives on in low light without co2 and without nutrients. Another myth busted. roud:


----------



## SkyGrl

looking great! i love how this tank is coming together :hihi: LOL still no plants on my end but i went to the post office and gave them my cell # so they can call me the moment it shows up. i was slightly distraught when i talked to her. she seemed to take my concern seriously!! that hair algea is amazing! i love it. i can totally see it waving in the current...  

Amy


----------



## sewingalot

Still no plants? That sucks. Nice that the PO lady was so sweet! 

Isn't the addition of hair algae fabulous? What sucks though is this tank is so hard to photograph. Even with the flash, this was the best I got:


----------



## SkyGrl

hmmm i say put one of your mega lights on there for a couple pics.. or put it on for a week and see if it kills anything...  maybe light is what it needs (yeah right).. would make for great pics tho! with all that hair algea you could be a hair dresser. :hihi:

Amy


----------



## sewingalot

I used a desk lamp in addition to the little light, but still nothing. Good idea on the mega light. I'll set up my 65 watt for a picture and see if that helps. :biggrin:


----------



## kcrossley

You are insane. LOL 

Seriously, I'm starting to dose Excel. How much should I use and how often?


----------



## sewingalot

From what I gathered on the sticky, twice the amount is safest - spot treat with the filters turned off a while (I did 10 minutes successfully) to let it sit. Use it everyday. If you have vals or riccia be careful, they'll melt.


----------



## nonconductive

why does that tank look like the forgotten tomb of sorrow.


----------



## Karackle

it doesn't, it looks like the forgotten tomb of AWESOME :tongue:


----------



## nonconductive

karackle said:


> it doesn't, it looks like the forgotten tomb of awesome :tongue:


lol


----------



## SkyGrl

Lmao!


----------



## GaMeR

sewingalot said:


> Speaking of bouquets of love, I super-glued the algae you sent into a nice center piece for your table:


My anubias will look like yours even I didn't use any spuerglue on it. 
Scraping the bba from glass is like a headless time bomb. You'll never know where it will be ended & when to explode there...


----------



## sewingalot

Haha, Kara, my awesome co-consipirator of algae awesomeness.



nonconductive said:


> why does that tank look like the forgotten tomb of sorrow.


It reflects the darkness inside of me. The yang in the yin. 



GaMeR said:


> My anubias will look like yours even I didn't use any spuerglue on it.
> Scraping the bba from glass is like a headless time bomb. You'll never know where it will be ended & when to explode there...


Hahaha, I am impressed with your algae growing skills and excellent description. :thumbsup:

I misplaced my 65 watt light, so that will have to wait until another day. Sigh. Sorry to disappoint. Something to look forward to, though. :icon_cool


----------



## sewingalot

Just for Amy my lurking friend. Found the light and temporarily hooked it up for a better picture!


----------



## SkyGrl

Looks AWESOME! i love the tannins look. BBA FTW!!!

amy


----------



## Karackle

SkyGrl said:


> Looks AWESOME! i love the tannins look. BBA FTW!!!


I second all of that! you took the words right out of my mouth Amy! :biggrin:


----------



## sewingalot

Thanks to Amy's suggestion on the light fixture for the pictures, it also occurred to me to take a picture of my blue pearls with the not yellow light bulb. Feeding time!


----------



## SkyGrl

very cute looking. i love the snail love fest :hihi:

Amy


----------



## Karackle

you have some really pretty snails in there! Why don't mine look that nice? LOL :hihi:


----------



## nonconductive

Its the bog of eternal stench!



sewingalot said:


> Just for Amy my lurking friend. Found the light and temporarily hooked it up for a better picture!


----------



## sewingalot

SkyGrl said:


> very cute looking. i love the snail love fest :hihi:
> 
> Amy





Karackle said:


> you have some really pretty snails in there! Why don't mine look that nice? LOL :hihi:


Thanks, gals! I have to say, the blue and red snails are all Cardinal's doing. The purple footed brown snails are a project I've been working on for a couple years now.  Everyone is healthy and breeding well. Water parameters are pristine on this tank. Yay for BBA!



nonconductive said:


> Its the bog of eternal stench!


You know I now <3 you for quoting one of my favorite childhood movies in reference to my tank, right? LOL Poor feller......


----------



## nonconductive

i figured you'd get the bowie reference :icon_mrgr


----------



## Karackle

nonconductive said:


> Its the bog of eternal stench!


AMAZING reference! I LOVE it!!! made me laugh out loud! :hihi: LOVE that movie! :biggrin:


----------



## Miamitj

Well, I seem to have found my home here. I also like BBA, well in small amounts. It's the only algae I get and it grows only on my center driftwood in high flow areas. It could care less about CO2 levels or anything else. 

I've just learned to remove it here and there to keep it in check and enjoy what stays behind. It does look nice waving in the current.

You can see it here on the center driftwood. 

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=7046447&l=4350313f83&id=616898696


----------



## plantbrain

nonconductive said:


> Its the bog of eternal stench!


I know that term, the movie and have stepped in it. 
Still have stanky feet. Skunks run when I toss a sock.

Maybe it kills algae?


----------



## nonconductive

plantbrain said:


> Still have stanky feet. Skunks run when I toss a sock.
> 
> Maybe it kills algae?


ahahahahahahahahah..... stanky.


----------



## Karackle

Welcome to the club MiamiTJ!!!  Glad you found us! :biggrin:

Hahahaha stanky. that made me laugh too.


----------



## sewingalot

Welcome, MiaimiTJ! Nice looking BBA you've got there. :biggrin: 

Very funny guys. It took me a long time to thank something is wrong with the word "stanky." I kept hearing it as the way I pronounce "stinky."

Update on the tank, no pictures. The flame moss is growing more and more along side the BBA. Here is the funny part - the moss (unintentionally planted) is free of algae. Like not one strand of clado, bba, hair, diatoms, nothing. And here is another strange thing. Driftwood that was completely out of water for over a year, no joke, is started to have moss appear. Actually, if you look at the front piece, you can see a random part of moss growing on the far right. 

So here I am _supposed _to having an all algae tank, where only plants covered in algae are introduced and moss is becoming a companion whether or not I want it to. How ironic is that? Moss is algae's algae. :hihi:


----------



## Karackle

HAHAHAHA moss is algae's algae! I love it! And that's actually VERY interesting! I love that the mosses are not only growing, but are algae free! I'm SO intrigued by the biology of this tank! Keep the updates coming! :biggrin:


----------



## sewingalot

Some seriously tragic news. The husband doses excel for me in the other tanks on occasion to help when algae crops up. Well....he dosed this tank thinking he was helping and put the amount in for the 55 gallon not thinking. Over night, the algae looked like a sad sight. It is still alive, but only barely breathing. This may be the beginning of the end of this project. I'll take a few pictures soon. My plan is to bring out the 65 watt light and hook that up a few days to see if I can get it to perk back up. If not, I'll take suggestions on how to annihilate my BBA once and for all. So sad....try not to cry Amy and Kara! I know I've mourned all week and just now braved it up to tell you all.


----------



## SkyGrl

wwwwwwaaaahhhhh!!!! EARL! what where you thinking! what a sad day! i hope it survives!!!!!!! i love this tank!

poor little algea!

Amy


----------



## GaMeR

Noo... Bad husband.. I wonder how he can make up that to you?


----------



## Karackle

:icon_neut:icon_conf:icon_cry: NNNOOOOOOOOO WHHHHHYYYYY?!?!?!?! :icon_surp

Sigh. It's so hard to get mad at the boys (or significant others I suppose I should say) when they try to help isn't it? But......sigh, how upsetting. I loved this tank, it was such a neat idea. 

I hope it recovers!!!!

But if it doesn't, I might just have a non-algae, but still fun idea for you to do with the 10g.


----------



## sewingalot

I know, he was only trying to help and in a weird way I was kind of touched. He was looking all smug the next day and pointed out to me how the algae was dying. He was so proud of himself that I couldn't be mad.

I am not sure if it will recover. *sob* It's pretty sad looking. The moss is still doing fantastic though. So I will probably be looking for ideas at this rate.

Thankfully, the shrimp were unaffected at 5 xs the dose for a one time thing. Because, that to be honest is my number one concerns in all my tanks. Fish aren't decorations for me, plants are.

Here is the tank as is:









































































So moral of the story, excel is a no-no on an algae tank. I had just redecorated, too. :icon_frow


----------



## Karackle

Oh, so sad! YAY that the shrimp are doing well though, they certainly look happy!!! But so sad for the algae.....oh, silly man, so proud of himself for killing the algae, too bad he forgot or didn't realize that was the whole point of the tank. Sigh. Ah well. It was fun while it lasted. 

Glad the moss is doing well though. Maybe you could switch this to a moss tank?


----------



## tkbellwood

My condolences, this thread helped me look at my BBA in a whole new way and now... Hope the tank works out and am happy for you that the shrimp made it.


----------



## GaMeR

After 35 pages of our algae discovery experiments, what have we find?
A husband is needed to get rid of it..


----------



## sewingalot

tkbellwood said:


> My condolences, this thread helped me look at my BBA in a whole new way and now... Hope the tank works out and am happy for you that the shrimp made it.


As long as this thread helped some people relax about having some algae in their tanks and it was not in vain, that's all that matters. I left my lights on for 14 hours yesterday. I'm not quite ready to give up. Thinking about putting in a boatload of fertilizers to see if it will help at all.



GaMeR said:


> After 35 pages of our algae discovery experiments, what have we find?
> A husband is needed to get rid of it..


LMAO! This is the funniest thing I've read in a while. And with the last few days I've had, you couldn't have better timing. roud:

I can tell you that lower light in combination with good co2 will keep it in check. I haven't seen it in my 55 but one small area in almost a month now. That's a world record for me. :icon_bigg


----------



## sewingalot

Snail rescue from LFS









Brevipes









BBA is growing again


















BBA starting to grow on snail









Clado









Tearing down the tank shortly for a revamp. I'm moved out 95% of the driftwood as the acidic water is destroying my snails. I finally found rocks that don't mess with the water parameters in this area and will be setting it up later this year. I've already moved the BBA driftwood back into his glass jar and will continue to grow him on the kitchen table.


----------



## Karackle

well as long as the original BBA guy is going to stay with us, I SUPPOSE it's ok for you to try something else with this tank so the acidic water doesn't harm your snailses. By the way, those are some of the coolest colored little snails I've ever seen!!! They're very pretty. Who knew "pest" snails could be so lovely! :biggrin:


----------



## SkyGrl

*lurk lurk.. * i love your new pictures. i plan to update my thread tomorrow... i will have to go on a long rant.. *sigh* im sad most of your BBA died..  but i love your snails too. this will be exciting to see how this new tank will look :hihi:


Amy


----------



## sewingalot

Okay, I just know some of you are dying for my BBA science-fair project thread to end, but now I have reasons to keep going. _(On the bright side, we can concur that Seachem Excel will nuke the dreaded BBA and so will hydrogen peroxide if it is new and not broken down as it is very unstable.)_

1. The BBA is making a swift recovery. Although the older strands bit the dust with the single excel dosage, the driftwood is showing a nice stubble. I'll get some pictures as soon as I get the tank back up and running. 
2. I got a genuine microscope from my dear brother for an early birthday present. He is amazing as this isn't a toy like I planned to get, but an actual one you'd find at campus. It goes up to 800x, but there are attachments to go even further that I can buy. I've been busy learning the ropes and even though I have a long way to go, I snapped a few pictures for you all, not the best, but they aren't bad, either. 

BBA upclose and personal at 4, 10 and 40 objectives:



























Clado-ish mat growing on a sponge in the algae tank:









Magnified and other algae growing on the algae, this was awesome to me. 









And because I know you guys are just waiting for the snail art (green dust algae)


















Just what I suspected. The GDA isn't GDA but mostly simple diatoms and cyanobacteria (BGA). Completely makes since to me why the GDA wait and scrape method never works for me. Just so you all know, if I let this built up, it looks just like the 3 weeks of doing nothing, but it always comes creeping back. Now we know why. I did see some cool like doo-dads moving around in the mix, but it was far and few between. Once I figure out how to take better videos, I'll post one up.

So I hope this is helping some of you learn a little more about algae and why it isn't so cut and dry as how to get rid of it. What is cracking me up is the fact my 55 gallon is now 99.8% algae free now since I've started this thread. This experiment really showed me to focus on plants and fauna and let algae live in coexistence. Strange thing is once you get a healthy tank, the algae isn't so bad anymore. It just simply starts to wither away. Now, I'll always have some algae in my tank as I am a realist and I believe many of us in this hobby have algae as we aren't all dedicated to maintaining a pristine environment. I algae is a good thing as it can be a great indicator of your tank's health. 

Ironically, it has been months since I've seen BBA in the 55 gallon. Just some green spot, diatoms and hair algae when I get lazy on filter cleaning, diffuser gets clogged, lean on nutrients, lights are left on too long, feed too much, etc. Basically, lousy house keeping = algae explosion in my experience.


----------



## nonconductive

cool pics. i cant believe the anubias leaves are still in there.


----------



## Karackle

SUPER cool pictures Sara!!!! LOVE The diatoms!!! Really neat to see all of the algaes up close and personal, I might have to send you random samples to see what I have :hihi: 

Can't wait to see more pics!!!


----------



## Rockhoe14er

It would be interesting to add excell to the bba under the microscope and see what happens.


----------



## 150EH

Now with all the little oganisms living inside of little tiny organisms you know everybody's tank has every kind of algae just waiting for their paticular set of conditions to appear, and the next thing you know your typing. I think the microsoft may be in on this deal??


----------



## sewingalot

nonconductive said:


> cool pics. i cant believe the anubias leaves are still in there.


Those things are indestructible. They are covered in GSA, BBA outlined and snail eggs galore, yeah they are still bright green. It must take them just as long to die as it does for them to grow for me. :redface:



Karackle said:


> SUPER cool pictures Sara!!!! LOVE The diatoms!!! Really neat to see all of the algaes up close and personal, I might have to send you random samples to see what I have :hihi:
> 
> Can't wait to see more pics!!!


Thanks, Karackle! The camera attachment will take up to 600x but the microscope can go much higher. It's a nice one! I was so excited to get something like this. Totally unexpected. We aren't gift givers in our family, like rarely celebrate holidays and birthdays past getting together, so this was an amazing surprise.

I am seriously debating abandoning my accounting field and going back to school to be the oldest living fossil.

Send away. Algae welcome from all angles. Other stuff, too. But if it's spiders, your out of luck. Stay at your lab for that, LOL



Rockhoe14er said:


> It would be interesting to add excell to the bba under the microscope and see what happens.


That is a good idea! I have some petri dishes, I'll dig some out later today and see if I can figure out the video. That'll be cool to try on all algaes, even. Smart! Thanks for the project. roud:



150EH said:


> Now with all the little oganisms living inside of little tiny organisms you know everybody's tank has every kind of algae just waiting for their paticular set of conditions to appear, and the next thing you know your typing. I think the microsoft may be in on this deal??


Perhaps so. Sounds plausible.


----------



## SkyGrl

so cool. i cant wait to see some videos of this! i think you will have to write a book now.. on all your findings... ill buy it. :hihi: 

Amy


----------



## Karackle

I'll buy it too! :biggrin:


----------



## nonconductive

i'm still waiting for my guide to romance


----------



## sewingalot

The book will be only 5 cents. I plan to retire after one copy is sold. :tongue: Non-c, I'll get _write _on that. Only, that'll be a pamphlet and not a book. 

The algae tank isn't dead, but it's getting remodeled. I ripped off the black background. In the future, I am painting all my tanks with that 97 cent acrylic paint! This was incredibly easy to remove. Felt like a plastic bag, even looked like one. 
Some of the algae and leaves have been sacrificed for my microscope endeavors. I'm going to brighten it up. The bog of eternal stench stunk. :hihi:










Going on sale next week - clado sponge!









I'll have some more up close and personal pictures soon. Right now, this is what you get.


----------



## SkyGrl

well im liking this tank for more reasons now. is it gunna be you in an american flag batheing suit? :hihi: if that whole sponge gets covered it would look so cool. a natural looking sponge. i like it... soooo like $500.00 plus shipping? SOLD! 

Amy


----------



## ddavila06

gosh, my eyes hurt from reading this thread...i had to stop around post 20 and stopped paying much attention to detail until post 28 or 29.,
im new to this forum, im around apc a lot. anywho, i have bba, dont we all?
it seems to like my anubias a lot, my crypts a little and lately i seen some on my aponogeton too. i keep my tank simple, i like simple. is a 75 with 3 54W catalina t5ho, 2 10k and 1 plant grow. pressurized co2. eco/flora max substrate. hydor koralia 2 and fluval 405 filtration with no carbon.many many plants, many fish.. i do minimal dosing btw, some api mixed nutrients here and there..
ok so, to contain it i need to: have oxigen injected somehow, turn off my koralia, attach a sponge to my filter intake might help/? and hope for the best? 
there were many confusing posts so i don't know which way to go...what can you guys suggest?


----------



## JoraaÑ

Increase flow and slowly but surely increase co2...again this process is slow but if you want fast remedies than dose H202 at most 3 ml/gal....watch out for sensitive sp. with everything turn off for 30 minutes and do large water change.


----------



## bsmith

ddavila06 said:


> gosh, my eyes hurt from reading this thread...i had to stop around post 20 and stopped paying much attention to detail until post 28 or 29.,
> im new to this forum, im around apc a lot. anywho, i have bba, dont we all?
> it seems to like my anubias a lot, my crypts a little and lately i seen some on my aponogeton too. i keep my tank simple, i like simple. is a 75 with 3 54W catalina t5ho, 2 10k and 1 plant grow. pressurized co2. eco/flora max substrate. hydor koralia 2 and fluval 405 filtration with no carbon.many many plants, many fish.. i do minimal dosing btw, some api mixed nutrients here and there..
> ok so, to contain it i need to: have oxigen injected somehow, turn off my koralia, attach a sponge to my filter intake might help/? and hope for the best?
> there were many confusing posts so i don't know which way to go...what can you guys suggest?


If you want to keep slow growers in a brightly lot tank BBA is just something you will have to fight every month or so. The best way I have found to do this is with direct Flourish Excel treatments. I start by turning off my filter and anything that would cause turbulence so the flow is stagnant. Then use an insulin dosing syringe and spot treat the whole tank where the BBA is growing. I always dose twice the recommend amount. Then let it sit for 1hour, two is better. 

Do this 3-4 times with one to two day breaks between doses and your BBA will be purple,red,white and dead.


----------



## ddavila06

i did the flourish treatment before posting here and today im seeing a lot of red algea in some plants, where teh bba was just getting to, but the older bba (more established) doesnt seem hurt. that came with a price though, too much excel hurt my aspidoras fish and one apisto died....when i noticed they were funny looking i did another water change hoping it would help but it was too late. 
maybe the best solution to algea is to accept it, befriend it and move on...

i have a surface skimmer attached to my fluval intake btw and let me tell you, it sucks quite a bit of oxigen which goes into the filter and gets kicked out through the output so the water is very very oxigenated! hope that also helps as some people said good oxigenation was one key thing.


----------



## Karackle

Sara, the new algae tank is looking awesome!!! I like it brightly lit better too  Looks like you'll be needing some more algae though, so I'll see what I can find :hihi: 

Two questions though, where is the BBA monster log and what plant is that cool stem in the center-left of the tank?


----------



## sewingalot

Thanks, Kara! That is hygrophilia pinnatifida. I personally am having okay luck with my hygros....having to up my nutrients as it's getting pinholes. I stuck it over here under lower light for a while to slow the growth down. Plan is to grow it emersed. I'll send you some when it cools down. It melted in the heat sending it to nonc a while back. Really easy to care for in lower light.

Ddavila06, I've found that H2O2 does a much better job at killing algae and is safer for the fish. However, it is very unstable (as in it breaks down over time), so I recommend a new bottle. I've recently been experimenting with excel and I'm just not crazy about it for an algaecide. Many have had much success with it, I just am not a fan of the product over all, so I have some admitted bias against excel.

I have been told higher co2 levels gets rid of it, but I haven't yet tried this, as I am not willing to chance gassing my fish for the sake of a small piece of algae. Limiting nutrients can actually help (as in slows down growth), but this usually hurts the plants as well.

Manual removal, up keep on maintenance (filters, diffusers, etc), focus on growing healthy plants by providing a good balance of light, nutrients and co2 help keep it in check. 

Then there is a great way to avoid it altogether and actually sterilize/quarantine every thing that goes into the tank first. I have one tank that is completely free of BBA simply because I didn't let it get in there.

For those interested, I've got a ton of new pictures to post and have found out some interesting things about algae and it's reaction to old excel, new excel and h202. Stay tuned.



ddavila06 said:


> maybe the best solution to algea is to accept it, befriend it and move on...


And yes, this is my way of looking at it. Smoother it with love. :hihi:


----------



## sewingalot

Kara - this is for you since you were asking about our mascot:



















He's living the high life right now, in the summer heat on the front porch. :biggrin:

Here are the results of excel vs. h202 on BBA on a microscopic level.

Okay so here is a nice, healthy strand of BBA. 









After the first day, it wasn't phased much, just lost a little coloring. One week later of sitting in the bath of excel (one dropper of excel to 4 droppers of water), I had a massive headache from the smell and the excel wasn't only just living, it was creating babies!









Side observation, microscopic bacteria was nearly all dead on second day. It was quite sad, really. By day seven, the bacteria was starting to reproduce.

This couldn't be right, could it? I've personally seen this stuff turn from black to either pink or white over night. So what gives? Then I remembered recently reading other accounts of excel not working recently, like maybe a bad or older batch. So I got a bright idea and produced another bottle of excel (an older bottle) from underneath my tank and repeated the steps.

Much better results!
Over night look at the lost of coloring:









By the third day, It was coming apart easily and most of the cells were the same color as above, no new growth.

So, apparently excel is much like h202 in the fact it may break down or have instability _(disclaimer for personal guessing inserted here).
_
*
Now H202 - Hydrogen Peroxide* Fresh batch, actually, I watched them take it out of a box, so it's not been sitting on a shelf too long.









Next day.









By day three, it was completely brown and dead. After a week, there was no new growth.

I am giving you the cliff notes as I don't think people <3 algae as much as I do here. Plans are to repeat the process once I get a better feel for the microscope picture taking.

Don't worry, this is all going in the guide to romance/growing plants/loving algae book. roud:

Edit: And just in case you are wondering, this concludes this thread for me. I no longer plan to update it unless I feel like pulling out an anniversary shot of the BBA that wouldn't die (aka Francine the driftwood.)

The things that I know will get rid BBA?
Chemical warfare (excel, h2o2 and I'll include co2 here). Less lighting didn't, lots of flow or lack of flow didn't, keeping the water clean didn't and neither did increasing oxygen. It seemed to enjoy oxygen quite immensely, even.

So in conclusion, I think it's the cleverest algae kingdom ever as it sexually reproduces. Why hate such a clever (fill in your own favorite expletive) little plant? 

For more fun facts on this algae read here:

http://plantphys.info/organismal/lechtml/rhodophyta.shtml


----------



## ua hua

Ok so rather than starting a whole new thread for this subject that seems to get no definitive answers other than the too much light, not enough co2 causes BBA I figured I would just add to a thread that is already 35+ pages long. I recently had a major outbreak of BBA occur on all the driftwood and filter outputs of my tank and I am at a loss for what made it appear. Now before anyone post the same thing that I read over and over again that you have too much light and not enough co2 just let me say that I have 4x65 pc lights 6 in. above the top of a 24" deep 90 gal. and my bubble counter is spitting out bubbles faster than you could count. I know my co2 levels are not low because last week after this started covering my driftwood I cranked up my co2 even more thinking maybe I wasn't getting enough co2 concentration in my tank and I woke up the next morning to all my fish gasping at the surface. Luckily I caught it in time and started adding O2 to the tank to force off some of the co2. My drop checker is and has always been light yellow. So unless too much co2 causes BBA then I would like to know what else can be done. I have had BBA before but never has it covered the driftwood like this. I have treated with excel or H2O2 when I had it before and it completely eliminated it. Does anybody have the answers as to why this stuff appears or does everyone just repeat what they have read about too much light and not enough co2 without actually knowing the real cause. My lights are on the same schedule that they have been for the last 2 1/2 years and my co2 is always flowing into the tank at the same rate as it always has and never has my tank had BBA on the driftwood like this.


----------



## wkndracer

Is a build up of organics or lack of NO3 possible? these are my question areas.
Low on older stems, on hardware and rocks I persistently see small tufts that I've be unable to eliminate and have them remain gone in two tanks.


----------



## ua hua

I dose KNO3 every other day according to the EI method and my filters both get cleaned out every 2 months on a rotating schedule so I don't see a build-up of organics being a issue. I thought maybe that low NO3 was the reason because a couple of months ago I was having an issue with BGA on the substrate but the more I dosed KNO3 the worse the BGA became and the more I read on BGA I believe the low nitrate readings are more of the effect of the BGA than cause. BGA eats up all available NO3 therefore giving one the lower nitrate readings. I'm very religious in my dosing and maintenence routine. And with the EI method the whole point is having nutrients available in excess. I have spent the last year tinkering with the way I use the EI method according to what my plants look like the need. I have been having great plant growth except for when I was battling the BGA which makes sense because the BGA was using all the N causing the plants to slow their growth. I have a hard time thinking that these algae issues we deal with in our tank are as simple as too much light and not enough CO2 like I always read people responding with. If it were as simple as that then how do you explain what is going on in my tank.


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## sewingalot

A little late, but there have been three ways I've gotten rid of BBA successfully now:

Chemical warfare with either excel, h202 or Kmno4
Manual removal
Limiting phosphates and or iron*

*The problem with limiting nutrients is the fact it can hurt your plants if you do this long term. I've completely eliminated it from my 55 gallon through nutrient limitation in the water column. However, I did kill a lot of plants like this and only suggest this as a last resort. Also, if you are having to limit nutrients, you may want to check your co2 as this is a often a reason for the outbreak to occur.

Theories I've tested that helped but not enough evidence?

Using bulbs less than 5000k. May or may not be anything, but something to look into if you are curious like myself.

I don't believe that the answer is too much light and not enough co2. Never have bought into that theory. But I will say that is the first place to look when your tank is having algae as these are driving factors.

I often found not enough OXYGEN causes a LOT of algae outbreaks.


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## Jeff5614

sewingalot said:


> ...I often found not enough OXYGEN causes a LOT of algae outbreaks.


I'm going to have to agree that you're on to something there. Call it purely anecdotal because it is but I can tell a difference depending on how much I oxygenate the tank. Well oxygenated and the tank looks clearer and cleaner, plants healthier, fish more active, etc.


----------



## plantbrain

sewingalot said:


> A little late, but there have been three ways I've gotten rid of BBA successfully now:
> 
> Chemical warfare with either excel, h202 or Kmno4
> Manual removal
> Limiting phosphates and or iron*
> 
> *The problem with limiting nutrients is the fact it can hurt your plants if you do this long term. I've completely eliminated it from my 55 gallon through nutrient limitation in the water column. However, I did kill a lot of plants like this and only suggest this as a last resort. Also, if you are having to limit nutrients, you may want to check your co2 as this is a often a reason for the outbreak to occur.
> 
> Theories I've tested that helped but not enough evidence?
> 
> Using bulbs less than 5000k. May or may not be anything, but something to look into if you are curious like myself.
> 
> I don't believe that the answer is too much light and not enough co2. Never have bought into that theory. But I will say that is the first place to look when your tank is having algae as these are driving factors.
> 
> I often found not enough OXYGEN causes a LOT of algae outbreaks.


Well, I do not use Excel, I do not limit Fe or PO4 and every one of the my tanks for the last few, well, decades now lacks BBA.............

Seems maybe light and CO2 management is..the real deal...........no one disputes this in the local clubs here...because they have had issues with BBA and learned the hard way and finally realized it. We can see it, we have done it, not just me, but many folks.

O2 should be good in a well managed plant tank anyhow.

Few bother measuring it.

But I've seen really awful BBA in tanks using wet/drys and with poor CO2........

So I do not think you will find much correlation other than good plant growth and O2 is a by product of that. If you dose pure 100% O2 gas.......as I did, I found it was insignificant at 15ppm vs 7 ppm on artificial media over 6 week trial runs in planted tanks.

With or without CO2 enrichment. Mastery of CO2 dosing is 95% of the algae related issues. I spent 3-4 years with it, Amano spent 10 years with it........before realizing what the key issue was.



Jeff5614 said:


> I'm going to have to agree that you're on to something there. Call it purely anecdotal because it is but I can tell a difference depending on how much I oxygenate the tank. Well oxygenated and the tank looks clearer and cleaner, plants healthier, fish more active, etc.


If this direct or indirect? Is it the O2 added from GOOD plant growth, or is it from good aeration/circulation?

Have you measured the differences in a tank with/without plants?
Poorly growing plants vs well growing plants?

7ppm is typical for 82F in a well run fish only tank 24/7.
Plant tank run well, 7-11ppm at the peak, maybe more is some tanks or a little less at night than 7, maybe down to 5-6 ranges with canister filters. 
Poorly run plant tank: 4-6ppm.

Same current etc........but.........poor growth adds to O2 consumption, rotting leaves etc.

You can also add sugar to increase bacterial respiration and remove O2 fairly fast that way, or bubble N2 gas to reduce the O2 levels.

Not wise to have fish in such test tanks though.

A good O2 meter and data logging function is very useful for in situ measurement of the growth rates of aquatic plants also, this gives a nice way to measure and compare how well the plants are growing.



ua hua said:


> If it were as simple as that then how do you explain what is going on in my tank.


How do you accurately measure CO2? what is a good ppm level for your tank? 

Will 30ppm work for one tank and another might need 70ppm?

I add CO2 according to the plants growth........

I do this slowly.

I watch.

I observe closely.

then..once the plants are growing optimally,...........then...........I go back and measure CO2.

Why then? Because I have a good* reference to compare to.*


If all you have is a tank with issues....this is not a control or a good tank to compare to. It might be all you have to work with and a bucket full of frustration........
Still, 70ppm might be more than enough or too much for another tank.........it might need only 50ppm, but the plants are slower growing and often times, the light is less. 
All my tanks follow the light intensity as far as demand for CO2, the more light= more CO2 in every case.



But Amano, myself and anyone worth their salt will tell you to focus on the plants. Less light intensity will make that easier. CO2 is the one thing that most with chronic issues have problems with. Every single issue I've had in the last 20 years was due to CO2 or too much light.

I ignore the BBA and simply focus on the CO2 and plants, once new growth appears without BBA, and it looks nice, I trim off the BBA and remove it.
I've done this for a dozen clients over the years. I have 100% success rate.
I do take my sweet time with adjusting and watching the CO2/plants, but I often do not have any choice since I dare not gas a client's prized fish stock.

I've seen BBA grow in tanks with 70-80ppm also.........but never on the plants, maybe old 1/2 dead leaves or a little bit on the wood etc.........but this is easily manageable. My non CO2 tanks never get BBA, or most any algae also.


----------



## houseofcards

plantbrain said:


> .. Mastery of CO2 dosing is 95% of the algae related issues. I spent 3-4 years with it, Amano spent 10 years with it........before realizing what the key issue was.


No doubt it's a big component, but it is still plant mass-related is it not. It's effectiveness will vary based on how much plant mass is actually available to make a difference with the optimum co2 your providing.


----------



## plantbrain

wkndracer said:


> Is a build up of organics or lack of NO3 possible? these are my question areas.
> Low on older stems, on hardware and rocks I persistently see small tufts that I've be unable to eliminate and have them remain gone in two tanks.


Critters can beat this up good, some swear by nerites.......I've not found them too good.

Amano shrimp in mass do pick real good, better than anything else.

SAE's also beat up many a BBA issue, but they have issues, Shrimp are better IME/IMO.

AGA's Tag had an article from Ole on the efficacy of Amano's, he basically concluded the same thing, they are the most effective critter.

Amano also obviously, and myself.

I like plecos for wood and larger areas of glass etc also.

FYI, I do not clean my glass much, maybe 3-6x a year at most. Wood, do not need to, plants get trimmed often enough etc.

Better them than you.


----------



## bsmith

Ua I also have BBA on some of my DW and most of my filter hardware and have just learned to deal with it. I know I am putting toms of co2 in the tank and am just below where it would kill my fish. But since I use such a high amount of light the BBA is present. The co2 may be as high as you can keep it with out killing your fish but with the lighting yo have on the tank it may not be enough to keep the BBA off the wood and hardware.


----------



## sewingalot

I stated this:



> _Limiting phosphates and or iron*
> *
> *The problem with limiting nutrients is the fact it can hurt your plants if you do this long term. I've completely eliminated it from my 55 gallon through nutrient limitation in the water column. However, I did kill a lot of plants like this and only *_*suggest this as a last resort. Also, if you are having to limit nutrients, you may want to check your co2 as this is a often a reason for the outbreak to occur.*


I am not disputing your results, Tom. Never have. I am simply stating the above and to reiterate: Short-term, nutrient limitation can help. Long-term it is determental to plant growth.

However, I do remember someone asking you how you kept the wood so clean in your tank many months ago in one of your journals and you stated that on water changes, you often times pour a excel (or equivilant) on it. 



plantbrain said:


> Well, I do not use Excel, I do not limit Fe or PO4 and every one of the my tanks for the last few, well, decades now lacks BBA.............


Also, you stated in one of the threads in the fertilizer sections you do occassionally get BBA on the lower leaves in your Stauro tank. Not to dispute you, but to say you never get BBA is not quite accurate by your own confession.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1440121-post71.html

You do get algae occassionally by your own admission, on poorer plant growth after a big mow. Now correct me if I am wrong, but after a big "mow" shouldn't your co2 be at it's highest? Almost seems like a flaw in your argument to claim you NEVER get algae, but to state in other threads you in fact do occassionally get algae:



plantbrain said:


> After a big mow, any old leaves often get a little algae on them, mostly BBA but not much, then new growth comes in free of any algae.
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is due to the plants giving up and removing the resources in the leaves and putting them into new growth, this is likely why most plants get algae on older leaves.
> 
> 
> 
> So we go in and trim, or in the case of a carpeting plant, the BBA will be buried under the new growth and non visible after 2-3 weeks anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> So trimming addresses any algae issues.
> 
> 
> 
> As long as algae never attacks new and/or healthy growth, it is not an issue.
> 
> Some old ratty shaded leaf that's been stressed good? Sure.


So which is it? Decades of algae free growth or you occassionally get algae too? I am not trying to split hairs here, but it seems to me that admitting getting algae occassionally when things aren't up to snuff is much more realistic. Why always this closeted "I don't get algae talk"? Wouldn't it be more beneficial to say "Algae happens even to the great ones. It's not a big deal." That is the entire point of my thread. 

Algae is natural in a planted tank. It will always be present whether or not you actually see it with your eyes or microscope. So relax and enjoy your tank and stop trying to live up to IMPOSSIBLE standards.


----------



## Jeff5614

I'm referring to O2 added from good aeration and circulation.

QUOTE=plantbrain;1543050]If this direct or indirect? Is it the O2 added from GOOD plant growth, or is it from good aeration/circulation?

Have you measured the differences in a tank with/without plants?
Poorly growing plants vs well growing plants?

7ppm is typical for 82F in a well run fish only tank 24/7.
Plant tank run well, 7-11ppm at the peak, maybe more is some tanks or a little less at night than 7, maybe down to 5-6 ranges with canister filters. 
Poorly run plant tank: 4-6ppm.

Same current etc........but.........poor growth adds to O2 consumption, rotting leaves etc.

You can also add sugar to increase bacterial respiration and remove O2 fairly fast that way, or bubble N2 gas to reduce the O2 levels.

Not wise to have fish in such test tanks though.

A good O2 meter and data logging function is very useful for in situ measurement of the growth rates of aquatic plants also, this gives a nice way to measure and compare how well the plants are growing.[/QUOTE]


----------



## plantbrain

houseofcards said:


> No doubt it's a big component, but it is still plant mass-related is it not. It's effectiveness will vary based on how much plant mass is actually available to make a difference with the optimum co2 your providing.


I have MASSIVE differences in plant biomass in my own tanks, foreground rugs only......or thickets of stem plants that grow very ver fast, or tanks full of ferns and anubias............

If you lay a ton of light on a tank of Anubias and just a few plants.......well.........you are not following general advice to begin with. If you add less light and are more reasonable about the light etc...then it is.....

I do not see much conflict here, I see folks trying to avoid horticulture and wanting to learn the many ways to kill algae.

This is backwards. Believe me..........it is. Folks have to learn this one the hard way.



sewingalot said:


> I stated this:
> I am not disputing your results, Tom. Never have. I am simply stating the above and to reiterate: Short-term, nutrient limitation can help. Long-term it is determental to plant growth.
> 
> However, I do remember someone asking you how you kept the wood so clean in your tank many months ago in one of your journals and you stated that on water changes, you often times pour a excel (or equivilant) on it.


Yep.......but this is a rare thing.........I do this maybe once every 2 months if anything flairs up........but there's no issues with plants.........hardscape stuff needs cleaning every so often for some folks/tanks..........
And this is only after a big hack........, as the plants grow back in, any cases of BBA go away quickly..........

Algae respond to poor plant health, and post trimming, that is the case.

If there is ample Shrimp, which are not so much in that tank, all RCS, not amano's, then I might do this every so often, but it's still basic horticulture, not algae killing..........

If the algae is BBA, then I know I need to adjust my CO2 a little.
If I get it on the wood or see an increase........then it's time.
A small amount of BBA, and I'm anal there.........is a lot different than the raging issues we see many folks with. No one can keep up with that type of BBA bloom. These are VERY different cases.

Short term nutrient tweaks might help, I've not found them particularly useful.



> Also, you stated in one of the threads in the fertilizer sections you do occassionally get BBA on the lower leaves in your Stauro tank. Not to dispute you, but to say you never get BBA is not quite accurate by your own confession.


I get BBA sometimes on my post trimmed leaves..the ones that are suddenly exposed to the higher light and are anemic.......the new growth NEVER has BBA.........if so it is a CO2 issue.

This is quickly buried in new growth and does not grow more.

In other words, a ratty ragged leaf..........that's buried and suddenly exposed to light, gets BBA. I suppose I could trim them all off and wait for new growth, I've done this, but it's more work and the BBA is not a management issue, still, the solution is growing the plants and trimming them better, not nutrients or algae killers. 



> You do get algae occassionally by your own admission, on poorer plant growth after a big mow.


Yep, on a few tanks here or there, others.......none at all. This is mostly due to leaving some ratty leaves, but I trim them off later on stems..........or they get buried by new growth. It does not impact the look of the tank nor poses a management issue.

I could do better horticulture and trim better. But I do not need to.
The labor trade off is not worth it. The algae is quickly exported out.



> Now correct me if I am wrong, but after a big "mow" shouldn't your co2 be at it's highest? Almost seems like a flaw in your argument to claim you NEVER get algae, but to state in other threads you in fact do occassionally get algae:


Yes, CO2 will be at it's highest, and until the stable state returns...........the potential for algae is also highest. That is independent of CO2(it could be 30ppm or 80 ppm, this will not matter).

Old ratty leaves are not worth defending, and the leaves have few nutrients on the lower bits.........so the plant abandons these and allocates resources to the new tip growth. Most all aquatic plants I know do this.

If you compare apples to apples, sure. But a trimming is a pretty big change to the tank. If I added say 100 Amano shrimp in there, which I have in the past...........I'd have zero algae after a trim.

Still, good CO2 has resolved all the BBA management issues and some basics as far as keeping a tank tidy, but algicides have not helped me, critters that eat and pick at algae have, cleaning any sizable amounts of BBA etc......

I do not add algicidal stuff to plants, my old bleaching plants days ended back in 1997 or so. 



> So which is it? Decades of algae free growth or you occassionally get algae too? I am not trying to split hairs here, but it seems to me that admitting getting algae occassionally when things aren't up to snuff is much more realistic. Why always this closeted "I don't get algae talk"? Wouldn't it be more beneficial to say "Algae happens even to the great ones. It's not a big deal." That is the entire point of my thread.


It depends on the situation if you add things like big trims that remove 50-80% of the biomass, and expose the ratty undergrowth to full lighting........anyone can contradict themselves with enough hyperbole:hihi:

Everyone gets algae to some degree, *but the follow up is how you deal with it, most of the focus is still, always on the plants.*

Snuffing out the little bits that are left, or simply trimming off the old leaves, adding more shrimps if possible, SAE's etc.........

Folks think there's some trick.
there is not, just good basic care of the plants, then these minor issues are very minor.......and manual trimming is worth while since the leaves will grow back shortly...........and no NEW growth of BBA occurs.



> Algae is natural in a planted tank. It will always be present whether or not you actually see it with your eyes or microscope. So relax and enjoy your tank and stop trying to live up to IMPOSSIBLE standards.


No visible algae is not impossible.........no microscopic algae is impossible.

My 120 gal have no visible algae, but must have 500 shrimp, 100 Amanos and 400+ fire cherrys. the non CO2 gets a little film on the front about once a month or two............one wipe for 20 seconds, I'm done...........while not absent 100%............these are MINOR nuisances......... and no need to resort to chemical warfare.

Excel is one of those things that's both something that will help grow plants...and kill algae both(or livestock and plants if over done). So that's a bit of both........

*Still, the primary focus is still largely on light and CO2......then BBA is never much of an issue, it a minor thing...very minor.* Most anyone can easily manage it then.

Good house keeping and cleaning is par for any algae issue, but if the root issue is not addressed.....then the newbies and others will not figure out how to grow plants well. It really is all about growing the plants and keeping them clean, algae should be relatively easy to keep ahead of then.

Also, if you drop the light down to the minimum ranges, then algae is virtually non existent in the plant tank......you'll find some with the microscope in all cases, but you can go a very long time without seeing any. Plant growth is also slow. Non CO2 tanks also do well and remain algae free for years.



Jeff5614 said:


> I'm referring to O2 added from good aeration and circulation.


In some tanks, I've seen the opposite actually, BBA loves good current and CO2 optima of 10ppm.

So it likes good O2.

I see less BBA on post trimmed ratty leaves........since I added a wet/dry, but the bacterial likely cycle the tank better now vs the old style OC filters which would clog often.

On the wood, I might get a little where the tips are pointed........and fish/amano's do not grub...........I took out all the Amano's a few months back due to the Sturisoma breeding.

So I might see a little here or there nearest the Vortech..........thumbnail scrape and 2 seconds, I've addressed it.

Not much.

I have no issues that warrant chemical control, never have. Yea, I've tried them all, many many times........just like many folks...........
But in the end, it is about the CO2.........and light.........and the plants.
After those are mastered and done correctly, then all these algal issues go away or are VERY minor.

You do still get a touch here or there, but if you are attentive, most folks will beat it back.

Hoppy, Antbug and a few other folks, Speedie etc.they have all stopped by my place several times over the years.........I do not spend a great deal of time on the tanks, but they do not have issues and if they do.....it's always CO2.

My old 120 never balanced right there. Once I switched to a different method of prefiltering, that resolved it. For all I seem to know, it still will burn me. 

Yes, I had to eat crow and take my own advice. Even the Mrs.'s got in on it and rubbed some salt in there for me But I tweaked it right and now it runs sweet........

It was a CO2 issue, pure and simple. I had some minor, but persistent green spirogyra that was stubborn and algices do not work well on it. Amano's took it out though.

In general: good circulation/O2 is great because it allows you more error and play with CO2, which means better plant growth and fish health.


----------



## sewingalot

Thank you for your candid response, Tom. It's nice to be back on the forum and discussing the hobby once again. 



> Originally Posted by *plantbrain*
> Yep.......but this is a rare thing.........I do this maybe once every 2 months if anything flairs up........but there's no issues with plants.........hardscape stuff needs cleaning every so often for some folks/tanks..........
> And this is only after a big hack........, as the plants grow back in, any cases of BBA go away quickly..........


Given the ultimate algaecide properties of excel, is it possible you are stunting it enough to keep it from growing in your tanks and it is not just co2? One thing I have found in common with many of the people that don't have BBA issues is they either manually remove it or often times use excel or it's generic form.

I don't disagree with your assessment on less lighting causing the need for less work and less co2. And I do agree that with higher light, raising co2 will also make life easier for the aquarist.

What I don't understand is the nano jar I have. It has zero lighting provided outside of a 40 watt incandescent that lights up the whole 6 x 9 room. It doesn't have any co2, nutrients are only what is added through the water supply. There is a bit of moss, java fern and driftwood in the jar. No co2 is added, no oxygen added there is a lid I keep on it. No movement.

Yet BBA flourishes.
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh38/sewingalot/IMG_2531.jpg

However, in my 55 gallon, I can blast the tank with 3 x 54 watts T5HO, 1.5 bps 24/7 and even upon introducing BBA, it dies. 

In theory, the co2 is much lower in my tank than it should be. When I take a sample of water and test the ph immediately and then 24 hours later, there is often times only a .5 ph change. From the best of my rudimentary estimates, there is usually around 10 - 15 ppm. Occassionally, when I forget to provide surface movement, I can get up to 30 ppm according to the chart. I know there is flaws in the chart, but by using the 24 hour method between readings of the same water, just set out overnight, I feel it is a good guideline.

So why BBA is thriving in impossibly low light scenarios but dies in higher light for me? My best thought is organics at this point. I take that from DarkCobra's teachings and since the driftwood is always leaving "crumbs" on the bottom of the jar when I change the water, it makes some sort of sense. 

So where I do agree less light causes more wiggle room as you have stated for far longer than I've been in the hobby, I do not agree co2 is the ultimate answer to all algae woes. Simply because I have been spending the summer growing algae in many different scenarios and can show an increase of algae when co2 is enhanced often times. Perhaps as I learn more in the hobby, I'll come to an agreement with you on this. After all, I did finally agree that less light is easier to maintain. :wink:

I do understand why you preach focus on the plants and not the algae. And I wouldn't ever recommend my methods to anyone unless they are looking to grow an algae farm. When people ask me how to grow plants, I can send them to you and others. :thumbsup:

I am more excited by these little guys than I am plants and love discussing it, inducing it, curbing it, killing it, dissecting, you name it. So this thread shouldn't be taken literal, was always meant to be tongue-in-cheek to a degree. This has nothing to do with how to grow plants. This thread is all about algae and not about plant care.


----------



## Jeff5614

plantbrain said:


> Yep.......but this is a rare thing.........I do this maybe once every 2 months if anything flairs up........but there's no issues with plants.........hardscape stuff needs cleaning every so often for some folks/tanks..........
> And this is only after a big hack........, as the plants grow back in, any cases of BBA go away quickly..........
> 
> Algae respond to poor plant health, and post trimming, that is the case.
> 
> If there is ample Shrimp, which are not so much in that tank, all RCS, not amano's, then I might do this every so often, but it's still basic horticulture, not algae killing..........
> 
> If the algae is BBA, then I know I need to adjust my CO2 a little.
> If I get it on the wood or see an increase........then it's time.
> A small amount of BBA, and I'm anal there.........is a lot different than the raging issues we see many folks with. No one can keep up with that type of BBA bloom. These are VERY different cases.
> 
> Short term nutrient tweaks might help, I've not found them particularly useful.
> 
> 
> 
> I get BBA sometimes on my post trimmed leaves..the ones that are suddenly exposed to the higher light and are anemic.......the new growth NEVER has BBA.........if so it is a CO2 issue.
> 
> This is quickly buried in new growth and does not grow more.
> 
> In other words, a ratty ragged leaf..........that's buried and suddenly exposed to light, gets BBA. I suppose I could trim them all off and wait for new growth, I've done this, but it's more work and the BBA is not a management issue, still, the solution is growing the plants and trimming them better, not nutrients or algae killers.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, on a few tanks here or there, others.......none at all. This is mostly due to leaving some ratty leaves, but I trim them off later on stems..........or they get buried by new growth. It does not impact the look of the tank nor poses a management issue.
> 
> I could do better horticulture and trim better. But I do not need to.
> The labor trade off is not worth it. The algae is quickly exported out.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, CO2 will be at it's highest, and until the stable state returns...........the potential for algae is also highest. That is independent of CO2(it could be 30ppm or 80 ppm, this will not matter).
> 
> Old ratty leaves are not worth defending, and the leaves have few nutrients on the lower bits.........so the plant abandons these and allocates resources to the new tip growth. Most all aquatic plants I know do this.
> 
> If you compare apples to apples, sure. But a trimming is a pretty big change to the tank. If I added say 100 Amano shrimp in there, which I have in the past...........I'd have zero algae after a trim.
> 
> Still, good CO2 has resolved all the BBA management issues and some basics as far as keeping a tank tidy, but algicides have not helped me, critters that eat and pick at algae have, cleaning any sizable amounts of BBA etc......
> 
> I do not add algicidal stuff to plants, my old bleaching plants days ended back in 1997 or so.
> 
> 
> 
> It depends on the situation if you add things like big trims that remove 50-80% of the biomass, and expose the ratty undergrowth to full lighting........anyone can contradict themselves with enough hyperbole:hihi:
> 
> Everyone gets algae to some degree, *but the follow up is how you deal with it, most of the focus is still, always on the plants.*
> 
> Snuffing out the little bits that are left, or simply trimming off the old leaves, adding more shrimps if possible, SAE's etc.........
> 
> Folks think there's some trick.
> there is not, just good basic care of the plants, then these minor issues are very minor.......and manual trimming is worth while since the leaves will grow back shortly...........and no NEW growth of BBA occurs.
> 
> 
> 
> No visible algae is not impossible.........no microscopic algae is impossible.
> 
> My 120 gal have no visible algae, but must have 500 shrimp, 100 Amanos and 400+ fire cherrys. the non CO2 gets a little film on the front about once a month or two............one wipe for 20 seconds, I'm done...........while not absent 100%............these are MINOR nuisances......... and no need to resort to chemical warfare.
> 
> Excel is one of those things that's both something that will help grow plants...and kill algae both(or livestock and plants if over done). So that's a bit of both........
> *
> Still, the primary focus is still largely on light and CO2......then BBA is never much of an issue, it a minor thing...very minor.* Most anyone can easily manage it then.
> 
> Good house keeping and cleaning is par for any algae issue, but if the root issue is not addressed.....then the newbies and others will not figure out how to grow plants well. It really is all about growing the plants and keeping them clean, algae should be relatively easy to keep ahead of then.
> 
> Also, if you drop the light down to the minimum ranges, then algae is virtually non existent in the plant tank......you'll find some with the microscope in all cases, but you can go a very long time without seeing any. Plant growth is also slow. Non CO2 tanks also do well and remain algae free for years.


I really appreciate and benefit from these last few responses. I have small bits of BBA pop up on driftwood pretty much monthly. I either remove it with my fingers or put a drop of Phyton Git or Excel on it and the shrimp take care of it as soon as it turns red. I also will get a bit on the edges of any dead or damaged leaves on my ferns. It takes about 15 minutes a month during water changes to deal with and all along I've thought I had some raging BBA problem that was due to poor management on my part. After reading these posts maybe I'm just being a bit too anal.


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## sewingalot

Lol Jeff. You sound like me. I found one tuft of BBA in my 15 growing on old leaf and freaked out looking for more to find one more piece after an hour of searching. When most people say they have algae-free tank, they aren't always telling the whole truth. It's like cool to say you don't have algae or something. I don't think you should fret about the occasional tuft here and there. It's when the plants aren't growing and are being enveloped that you should start to worry.


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## plantbrain

I think the 180 Gal tank I have is a special case also. 

The real estate is A LOT of nice soft wood and it's up higher than the plants, maybe 30-40% of the surface area is bare.

The plant biomass is rather on the low side. I hack a good 70-80% of that plant biomass out when I prune typically. 

The fish population and feeding is intense. Far more than typical tanks.

If I removed say 70% of the livestock and fed less, then the BBA would not be even present.

I am willing to deal with these trade offs for some minor occasional rare BBA.
It's far far from unmanageable.

That is really what we want as aquarist, manageable plants and algae.
We can poush some things, but CO2 is not one I care to push. I focus there, maximize plant health/horticulture............then deal with the left over stuff.

This means plants are weighted for the best possible case.........then we add things that will likely tip the balance the other way towards algae: over stocking, over feeding, low plant biomass, intense feast of famine pruning.

For the typical poor plant aquarist who has nothing but furry plants.........they do not get to take such liberties.....they have not gotten to a level when this is something they can manage.

I do not think it's a fair broad example to state that I never get any algae..........I never get any algae that I cannot EASILY manage, so in that regard, I will take back that statement.

BBA does not bother me, and it has not since 1997, once I figured out how to really manage CO2 gas.

There is a huge difference between that and the poor folks with furry balls all over their tank.

You cannot state or even suggest those tanks are even remotely like mine.

I cannot cover all the bases with every post and I prefer to look at each tank by tank case. I do not say all tanks cannot get algae if they use proper CO2.

I can say things like good proper CO2 management is the weakest link and too much light are the main issues for most hobbyist.


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## houseofcards

plantbrain said:


> ...
> *The real estate is A LOT of nice soft wood and it's up higher than the plants, maybe 30-40% of the surface area is bare.*
> 
> *The plant biomass is rather on the low side. *I hack a good 70-80% of that plant biomass out when I prune typically.
> 
> The fish population and feeding is intense. Far more than typical tanks.
> 
> *If I removed say 70% of the livestock and fed less, then the BBA would not be even present.*
> 
> I am willing to deal with these trade offs for some minor occasional rare BBA.
> It's far far from unmanageable.


This is pretty much what I've been saying to you all along. You can't always be a perfect horticulturalist. Once you go to a scape you got space. Depending on design of the scape you might have a lot of space. Most iwagumi designs go against this conventional wisdom of plant mass working in your favor as well as needing pretty good light. We all aren't growing rows of plants (not that there's anything wrong with that.)

So if the plant mass isn't there, maximizing co2 isn't going to be enough sometimes and one has to have a combination of this and extreme organic control to make it work. If the light needs to be a little stronger, more pressure on organic control. If the plant mass is smaller, more pressure on organic control. We all know BBA exists in lowlight tanks, LOL (thread title) and in tanks were fish are gasping. Organic control is a component to this that should be discussed on the same level if not higher than co2 and plant mass since it's relevant to every setup.


----------



## plantbrain

My point is that with good CO2 and light choices.......we can manage most any algae VERY easily.

Eradication is not the goal nor is manageable, control most definitely is if folks focus on light/CO2 more, and less on nutrients. Nutrients are quite simple and easy if you hold this view/approach.

Many whine about that their CO2 is good and they still have algae.........well light and general care are large factors, do they have 1-2 plants, or a lot? Do they feed their fish a lot etc and have a high bioload? Do they sell oodles of plants every month??

No, not that group.

the core issue is CO2......but this assumes they have the other basic criteria already met, which often is NOT the case.

So rather than offering some cure all for algae.............I tend and have taken most folk's as a case by case resolution. This may take a few post back and forth to figure out what is going on. Even there, over the web, this is 100X harder than in person. In person, there's few issues I've not been able to fix. Certainly no algae issues. On line it is much harder.

So when I see cladophora in someone tank, I know there's a CO2 issue, or BBA..........they might not now have a CO2 issue...............but they did at some point and the algae got a foot hold. If they have 8 full grown discus ina 60 Gal tank and feed them till they cannot move.........well.........then they will just have to suffer with algae and cramped conditions. How much trade off depends on each case, these trade offs vary with each user. 

I knwo them wella dn can apply them to my own tanks, some have more of this towards algae like the 180, whereas the 120 could not have any algae of any sort and is extemely robust by comparison, even though they have similar/same light/CO2.

By good management of light/CO2 and also using good filters.........I stack the plant's favor in my goal direction.........if I ignored the CO2 or the light or the filtration.......even just one of these, this would not be easy to manage and I'd have lots of trouble.

Many just read more CO2 and do not look at this holistically, therein is the real problem and why a case by case basis should be taken with helping others.


----------



## houseofcards

plantbrain said:


> My point is that with good CO2 and light choices.......we can manage most any algae VERY easily.


I agree with much of what you said, not necessarily with the above since again a sparsely planted tank would limit co2/light optimization without possibly extreme organic control. If we aren't talking that and just assume the tank in question is filling up with normal levels of good plants than yes, I agree.

Maybe this is where "Church and State" separate since the art side of the hobby goes against much conventional thinking in terms of keeping an algae free tank.

I totallly agree it's tough to give out exact advise online since you don't know exactly what's going on. If you take two identical size tanks with the same light, same co2, same fert schedule and one is pretty much algae free and the other is a mess, what is more likely the difference?

Light of course is a major problem if not done correctly, I really think all these 2x24 T5HO lights that have only one switch is a real problem for many. It's usually a lot of light running the full cycle and many just don't understand how to handle that. Much more manageable to have one bulb for most of the day and the second for just a few hours. Much more manageable all the way around.


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## Jeff5614

houseofcards said:


> ...Much more manageable to have one bulb for most of the day and the second for just a few hours. Much more manageable all the way around.


Ditto that. I have a 2x54 fixture that sits 3 inches above my 75 and having two switches versus a fixture where it's both bulbs or none is like night and day. One bulb is plenty for a slower growing tank and for viewing and you can use both bulbs, as I am, for few hours a day to encourage a good foreground carpet to spread. Algae wise, it makes that much easier to control also.


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## sewingalot

This has turned out to be a great discussion for everyone. I am really enjoying it and must say it's pleasant to see others having different opinions and sharing them so frankly without malice. Isn't this forum great when these conversations take place? Thanks for such a pleasant interaction on my favorite subject.

And hearing plantbrain occasionally gets algae when things go south should encourage others to keep trying even when things get rough. After all, we can't dispute this guy knows how to grow beautiful plants.


----------



## plantbrain

houseofcards said:


> Maybe this is where "Church and State" separate since the art side of the hobby goes against much conventional thinking in terms of keeping an algae free tank.


Well, there's no standardization there.

A goldfish with an Anubias vs the ADA full fan boy/girl.



> I totallly agree it's tough to give out exact advise online since you don't know exactly what's going on. If you take two identical size tanks with the same light, same co2, same fert schedule and one is pretty much algae free and the other is a mess, what is more likely the difference?


This is not possible without a reference tank to start off with.
If you also have good standard protocols to induce and culture the algae, this also helps a great deal.



> Light of course is a major problem if not done correctly, I really think all these 2x24 T5HO lights that have only one switch is a real problem for many. It's usually a lot of light running the full cycle and many just don't understand how to handle that. Much more manageable to have one bulb for most of the day and the second for just a few hours. Much more manageable all the way around.


Light is easy, adjust the height/level to match the PAR you assume and start with. You can add more light treatments, say 25 umol, 90umol and 250umol. Tropica did that and then did 3 levels of CO2 as well.

Maybe there's something to be said about the bulb in question's spectra also. I dunno.....maybe, but that's a lot more work to riddle out.



sewingalot said:


> This has turned out to be a great discussion for everyone. I am really enjoying it and must say it's pleasant to see others having different opinions and sharing them so frankly without malice. Isn't this forum great when these conversations take place? Thanks for such a pleasant interaction on my favorite subject.
> 
> And hearing plantbrain occasionally gets algae when things go south should encourage others to keep trying even when things get rough. After all, we can't dispute this guy knows how to grow beautiful plants.


How dare you call my Weeds, *plants!*
Have you no respect?

hehe


Still, this can show folks that there's are many pitfalls in addressing generalities, and I am no less guilty but I try and accept them. I think many folks take active advantage of the generalities however and try to sway folks and newbies the wrong direction. They do not do this out of malice though, they know enough to dangerous, but not enough to figure it all out and what are the main issues that folks need to work on, before...they can end up doing nice gardening, which is really the main goal of most that enter the plant hobby.

The rest of us just kill weeds.

My own 5 tanks all have VERY different behavior and responses to light/CO2/nutrients, fish loadign etc and all have different resiliency to algae as a result. 

But.........I still know what I need to do to address those differences.

The planted tank is not so irreducible we can say one thing, but we cannot uncover and address every possible issue, we go after the low picked fruit and the more obvious, we assume the folks have a good understanding sometimes etc......... sometimes they don't. Sometimes, they do but over looked somethign as simple as CO2...or plugging that cord in.

I've seen it and had it happen to me.
Stick around long enough, and it will happen to you, statistically it's VERY likely.


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## houseofcards

Jeff5614 said:


> Ditto that. I have a 2x54 fixture that sits 3 inches above my 75 and having two switches versus a fixture where it's both bulbs or none is like night and day. One bulb is plenty for a slower growing tank and for viewing and you can use both bulbs, as I am, for few hours a day to encourage a good foreground carpet to spread. Algae wise, it makes that much easier to control also.


After having many different light setups this to me is the best and most practical. You have the ability to keep plants in low/med light most of the day and if they need it go to a highlight environment for as little or as long as you want. Lots of flexibility and much more practical then raising and lowing a light. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not always possible to do this.


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## houseofcards

sewingalot said:


> This has turned out to be a great discussion for everyone. I am really enjoying it and must say it's pleasant to see others having different opinions and sharing them so frankly without malice. Isn't this forum great when these conversations take place? Thanks for such a pleasant interaction on my favorite subject...


It is and sometimes not easy when there are so many different perspectives on the forum. Students, Scientists, Artists, Technicians, etc. they all approach the hobby differently and see different ways of doing things. 

They below statement illustrates that point. 



plantbrain said:


> ...
> Light is easy, adjust the height/level to match the PAR you assume and start with. You can add more light treatments, say 25 umol, 90umol and 250umol. Tropica did that and then did 3 levels of CO2 as well...


I always have a hard time thinking things are this straight forward. I mean fish tanks aren't that controlled and the point I was making above is that one's upkeep factors in and it's not just co2/light. The tank is in one's home and is subject to the benefits and disadvantages of that location.

Light could be easy, but let's face it, how many Aquarists, especially newbies who are trying to get a grip are going to have a PAR meter under their Christmas Tree or Hanukkah bush this year. It's just IMO not that controllable so you hit it from all sides, don't let it breathe!


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## plantbrain

houseofcards said:


> I always have a hard time thinking things are this straight forward. I mean fish tanks aren't that controlled and the point I was making above is that one's upkeep factors in and it's not just co2/light. The tank is in one's home and is subject to the benefits and disadvantages of that location.
> 
> Light could be easy, but let's face it, how many Aquarists, especially newbies who are trying to get a grip are going to have a PAR meter under their Christmas Tree or Hanukkah bush this year. It's just IMO not that controllable so you hit it from all sides, don't let it breathe!


Maybe dumbing(I would call it an intelligent management decision personally) it down and then going from there is a wiser approach?
Non CO2 methods tend to have a higher rate of success for this very reason.


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## houseofcards

plantbrain said:


> Maybe dumbing(I would call it an intelligent management decision personally) it down and then going from there is a wiser approach?
> Non CO2 methods tend to have a higher rate of success for this very reason.


I don't know the term "Dumbing it Down" I do know the term "Realistic" or "Relatable"


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## plantbrain

houseofcards said:


> I don't know the term "Dumbing it Down" I do know the term "Realistic" or "Relatable"


Simpler and more patient methods rather than messing with every parameter and amplifying every cotton picking thing.


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## sewingalot

Don't get me wrong, I am all for par meters if it is affordable, but I think it would be great if someone could come up with a general "WPG" guideline for compact florescent, t8, t5 and t5ho.

Like to get high light, you need 4 WPG of T8, 2 of PC, 1.5 T5 and 1 for T5HO. I know that the reflectors are a big part and so is the height placement, but perhaps you could say 5" above the tank, it is this. I really think this would help a lot of newer members (and ones that can't afford/have access to a PAR meter) to understand that 4 x 54 watts t5ho is way too much for a 55 gallon.

If someone would have said it's like 1.5 equivalent WPG, I would have been a lot better off and so would others. Hoppy's chart helps, but I still think it needs "dumbed down" even further.

I am also sticking with organics can play a big role in BBA growth. But I define organics in terms of rotting wood, left over food, dirty filters, etc. So maybe that is why I see a bigger generality.

Also, I am trying a new experiment with 4100 k bulbs. BBA doesn't seem to grow for me at all under this lighting. When I replace them with 10000k, it flourishes. Go figure. Coincidence, probably, but I'd like to see if anyone else has similar experiences.

By the way, every time I clean my tank, I forget to plug back in the diffuser. One of the main reasons I am building the Cerges reactor.


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## audioaficionado

My two 39W T5HO strip lights work out to ~2WPG over my 45gal tall. However since they have very good reflectors I have an effective >4WPG high light level. So much for the simplicity of WPG. If I want to run them both at the same time, I have to only run a 6 hour photo period even with max CO2 and EI which is too short a viewing window for me. I stagger them over a more acceptable 10 hour period.


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## sewingalot

I don't really think the WPG has to be rigid, but it would be a good starting point. Not saying it's perfect, but it would help many people like myself avoid the high light disease. And there could be a disclaimer added to say "this is an estimate only, etc, etc." Completely doable in my opinion. But I don't know much when it comes to lighting.


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## houseofcards

sewingalot said:


> ...
> I am also sticking with organics can play a big role in BBA growth. But I define organics in terms of rotting wood, left over food, dirty filters, etc. So maybe that is why I see a bigger generality...


Anything organic that is decomposing we can add to that list. That would include all the stuff you mentioned. 

This hobby really isn't that hard if everything is keep within a certain range. Lights/co2/ferts is pretty easy to do it's the human element that one can't predict nor can it be charted.


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## audioaficionado

My new rule of thumb is you only need half the WPG for T5HO with fair to good reflectors. But that's only for me and my 12" deep x 24" high tank.

When I graduate to a 24"deep x 24" high setup, I might need 4x rows of T5HO lights suspended several inches above the top. OTOH I'll most likely just go with DIY LEDs and dim as needed.


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## plantbrain

sewingalot said:


> I don't really think the WPG has to be rigid, but it would be a good starting point. Not saying it's perfect, but it would help many people like myself avoid the high light disease. And there could be a disclaimer added to say "this is an estimate only, etc, etc." Completely doable in my opinion. But I don't know much when it comes to lighting.


Hoppy's light curve vs depth of different types is a good alternative to W/gal.

As light types change with tech advances......the rule needs adjusted, but old text and web sites, dogma, heck..that stuff NEVER gets updated. 

20+ years later I STILL get the Dupla myths being brought up.

You can buy just the sensor and then convert using a multimeter to get the par if you have a multimeter, then it's about 100-120$.



audioaficionado said:


> My new rule of thumb is you only need half the WPG for T5HO with fair to good reflectors. But that's only for me and my 12" deep x 24" high tank.
> 
> When I graduate to a 24"deep x 24" high setup, I might need 4x rows of T5HO lights suspended several inches above the top. OTOH I'll most likely just go with DIY LEDs and dim as needed.


Yes, so those rules need changed often, more often than the cotton picking new articles are changed(which is never). At least with PAR over an area vs a distance etc.....we can get around the type of light tech that's being used.

This will last far longer than say T5's will for common usage.


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## houseofcards

So how does one chart a noon day burst anyway? If I have a burst of 1-2 hours and it's intensity is 'high light' is that charted as high light. I mean running 'high light' for 1-2 hours opens the door to a wider selection of plant possibilities without the usual algae pressures that might come with a full cycle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## plantbrain

You add multiple bulbs, or.you ask Hoppy to try it with multiple bulbs........

Hard to say what a noon time burst umol is or is not, since it's a relatively brief thing, assume 2x the PAR for the 2x the lights.

It's off a little, but not much for T5's.

Spread becomes important with many bulbs also.
Just like with LED's.



houseofcards said:


> So how does one chart a noon day burst anyway? If I have a burst of 1-2 hours and it's intensity is 'high light' is that charted as high light. I mean running 'high light' for 1-2 hours opens the door to a wider selection of plant possibilities without the usual algae pressures that might come with a full cycle.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This does not open more plant possibilities, it just means you can grow them faster.

I know of no high light requirement plant.


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## houseofcards

plantbrain said:


> This does not open more plant possibilities, it just means you can grow them faster.
> 
> I know of no high light requirement plant.


Forget high/med/low, what I'm saying is the burst could mean the difference between growing certain plants or not growing them without having to run for the sake of argument medium light all day. There is certainly a minimum of light needed for certain plants especially carpet plants that might not be met by the one bulb, but would grow fine with the second bulb running as a burst.


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## plantbrain

What is the min light required to grow a plant species? Which ones are you talking about? Please be specific.

I think some species might have a limit in the 30umol ranges, but at 40-50, there is nothing that cannot be grown well and looking nice.

I'll defer to the 120 Gal.plenty of so called high light plants.......all grown curiously at low 40-50umol of light, no burst.
I can grow them faster, at a faster rate with more light.........but why? I'd have a trimming hell. As you push more light, the differences in growth rate also increase between species also.
This tends to make horticulture much more troublesome IME. I mean if more is better, why not go 400-500micromol then? 

That tank also has a total of 7-8 foreground plants.
Hair grass or HC? Got that too , same range, AFA also does as well, same light intensity without any high light burst.

I'm not arguing against the burst, only the fact that you do not need it.
It just adds speed of growth, not "better". If you right at the limit, say 20umol and then add a burst of say 50-80 for 1-2 hours, then yes, but now you are doing nothing really more th the total light for a time period, or a "dose". The total is still the same as as running the lower light at 30-40umol.

So take 20 umol for say 8 hours with a 2 hr 60 umol blast, the total hour x umol is 240. Or about 30 umol for 8 hours straight.
I would expect similar rates of growth from both.


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## houseofcards

There's always going to be a limitation to grow certain plants under certain restraints. One being height of tank and intensity of light. There have been plenty of TPT members (including myself) who saw that happen with certain light setups and certain plants. I experienced this myself on my 4ft tank where I was running 4x65 cf and had Blyxa growing very lush and colorful with the burst. When I turned off the burst the Blyxa started to lose it's color and eventually didn't grow as well. When I trimmed and replaced the burst it recovered. I understand the benefits of PAR value, but the light system was the light system and I'm going to by another one for this situation, so I go by the plants and having the burst was beneficial. If I ran the 4 bulbs for the whole light duration I probably would've had more maintenance issues so why wouldn't I use the burst. I've also had this happen with numerous foreground plants. There's growth and there's growth. There is a certain dynamic when the growth is too slow it can create algae issues as well and the burst assures some extra growth without adversely maintenance. 

ADA has 150w MH has their standard light for a 60p and they recommend a 250 MH for tall tanks. Both of these fixture types are super ridiculous high light according to the charts and would require above average maintenance unless the tank was planted extremely heavy. I find it more beneficial to have the burst in terms of acceptable plant growth, algae prevention and plant mass flexibility.


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## audioaficionado

I just burst because of a timing overlap between my two T5HO strip lights. Running them both for 10 hours would be disastrous, but since I have them sitting on top of the tank, a single strip won't fully cover the whole tank front to back. The tank glass cover also has this opaque hinge strip smack dab in the center too. I could run them both for 6 hours a day and be OK, but a six hour viewing period is ridiculous. Ten is at least long enough for us to enjoy the view from noon to 10pm after work. Window screen attenuation doesn't do it for me either.


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## houseofcards

audioaficionado said:


> I just burst because of a timing overlap between my two T5HO strip lights. Running them both for 10 hours would be disastrous, but since I have them sitting on top of the tank, a single strip won't fully cover the whole tank front to back. The tank glass cover also has this opaque hinge strip smack dab in the center too. I could run them both for 6 hours a day and be OK, but a six hour viewing period is ridiculous. Ten is at least long enough for us to enjoy the view from noon to 10pm after work. Window screen attenuation doesn't do it for me either.


Your comment is a very good one, since it illustrates how each setup is different and you might not be able to run a single intensity all day. No one is saying a burst is a required way of doing something, just advantageous sometimes to promote a longer viewing time, additional growth if needed and keeping algae at non-nusance levels.


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## houseofcards

BTW This is an interview with the 2nd place finisher of the IAPLC Contest this year that I thought I would share. 

http://www.paludarium.net/6/post/2011/10/-2011.html

The Interviewer asked an algae-related question and this is the exchange:

Q:
"Did you get any algae in any moment? Why you think it happened? How did you eliminate it?"

A:
"I didn't have any algae issue in this tank, because I used continuous water change system. *I believe that overcrowding, overfeeding and insufficient water changes are the the most common reasons to cause algae blooms.* Keeping Neocaridina denticulate and Otocinclus vitatus along with frequent water changes will help prevent algae issue. I do not suggest Caridina multidentata, because they also gnaw at the delicate parts of the plants."


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## mistergreen

I figured out what cause my BBA outbreaks.. I'm having one again.

Apparently, it coincides with me trying to 'clean' my filter. I do the usual rinse of my medium trying not to kill my N-bacteria. When I plug the filter back, whatever is in the filter gets blown into the tank.

I'm thinking several factors here. BBA spores living in the filter and the mulm is sprayed all over. So what is there to do? Change out with new media next time I clean? Or no cleaning at all? Those are my 2 options to see is this hypothesis is true.


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