# Excel & CO2 resistant BBA?



## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

possibly poor circulation?


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## Digsy (Mar 4, 2006)

What beautiful discus you have! How long have you been dealing with this problem? I see in your post that you've been dosing Excel for 8 - 9 days. While that's enough to see an improvement, most people are dosing for several weeks before it truly goes away. While my problem was on a much smaller scale (12 gallon), it took dosing Excel on a daily basis for well over a month before I stopped seeing BBA.


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## cowboy (Mar 14, 2007)

Digsy,

After the month were you able to quit the excel and are you adding CO2? I'm fixin to order a Reg from Rex but picked up some excel over the weekend hoping to get a head start.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

I have never seen BBA survive a good (direct) squirt of three or four mls of Excel. Are you killing your filter for five minutes before squirting the BBA with pure Excel using a dose syringe? Because if you have current it will quickly dilute. I would bail on dosing the whole tank and simply spot treat each tuft. It might take a little longer, but the BBA will be dead. Beautiful tank/Discus for sure! roud: 

FWIW, I have regularly put 40-50 mls of Excel daily or every other day in a 90 gallon without any fish or shrimp reactions. I wouldn't do it seven days a week, but every other day for sure for a week or so, then a few days off, water change, and continue until BBA is wiped out. Also, maybe try upping the CO2 to 50 ppm. The fish will be fine. Just keep an eye on them so do it while you're around for a day.


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## crash69 (May 14, 2005)

Thanks for the replies:smile: 



danepatrick said:


> possibly poor circulation?


When I first set the tank up 2 years ago I tested the tank turnover and it came to 3000L/hr (5x tank turnover). I think it's dropped a bit with the pump age etc but it's still pretty good. I tried powerheads once before and it didn't seem to help, in fact BBA was growing near powerhead outputs :icon_roll .. I I'm willing to try adding powerheads again if it will help?



Digsy said:


> What beautiful discus you have!


Thanks! I've had some of them over 2yrs now



Digsy said:


> How long have you been dealing with this problem? I see in your post that you've been dosing Excel for 8 - 9 days. While that's enough to see an improvement, most people are dosing for several weeks before it truly goes away. While my problem was on a much smaller scale (12 gallon), it took dosing Excel on a daily basis for well over a month before I stopped seeing BBA.


Been dosing regularly for about 10 days. My concern isn't the existing BBA going away, I expect that will take time, its the fact I'm still getting new growth... it's a bit hard to count but I notice new tiny little tufts of BBA on the gravel each day. I try to remove the larger ones, but it's a real chore and stressfull to my discus to have to stick my hand in each night when I get home hunting & pecking them out.



Betowess said:


> I have never seen BBA survive a good (direct) squirt of three or four mls of Excel. Are you killing your filter for five minutes before squirting the BBA with pure Excel using a dose syringe? Because if you have current it will quickly dilute.


Thanks, I'll try turning off the filter first, wasn't doing that. I've been squirting about 1-2mls on each tuft with a syringe (there's probably 30 or 40 larger tufts stuck to the gravel all over the tank and countless tiny ones). but it hasn't been having any effect.



Betowess said:


> I would bail on dosing the whole tank and simply spot treat each tuft. It might take a little longer, but the BBA will be dead.


Hmmm... I prefer not to have to keep sticking my hand in the tank each day as it stresses my discus, and with maybe 40 larger tufts and new ones springing up all the time it takes a while. I get a sore back just doing 10-15 of them :hihi: :hihi: I think I'll keep the tank dose as well as spot dose for now in the hope it reduces new tufts appearing.



Betowess said:


> Beautiful tank/Discus for sure! roud:


Thanks!



Betowess said:


> FWIW, I have regularly put 40-50 mls of Excel daily or every other day in a 90 gallon without any fish or shrimp reactions. I wouldn't do it seven days a week, but every other day for sure for a week or so, then a few days off, water change, and continue until BBA is wiped out. Also, maybe try upping the CO2 to 50 ppm. The fish will be fine. Just keep an eye on them so do it while you're around for a day.


I'm upping the CO2, it takes a while to change 600L :redface:, maybe I should try dosing excel at 1x recommended every day and every 2nd or 3rd day do a "bomb" dosage of 3 or 4x on top of the normal?

With the regular ferts, excel, higher CO2 etc it is definitely helping as the BBA is growing much slower than previously, and I haven't noticed any on the plants only the gravel roud: 

My main concern isn't getting rid of existing BBA, if I have to I'll nuke the tank again with something like azoo brush magic, although honestly I'd rather not - it really knocked back the plants and the discus didn't like it much either. My concern is that I'm still getting some new growth of BBA even with the high CO2 & excel.

I'm grasping at straws, but could it be related to the very soft tapwater here in Melbourne? perhaps if I added more calicum/magnesium etc it would be less to BBA's liking? (I'm adding app 20ppm Ca and app 3ppm Mg) 

Could it be something to do with the dupla laterite I added 2 yrs ago at tank setup? (although I have sucked a lot of it out using a gravel vac at w/c's)

Could it be related to undergravel heating cables?

Could it be with only medium plant load I should dose less Iron/trace daily? (I read a reponse from Tom Barr where he disputes the Iron=BBA theory though)

:help: :help: How do I stop it from re-appearing?


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

Try what Betowess said.Turn the filter off for a 1/2 hour and spot treat with a syringe.That has worked for me with bba on my hairgrass & driftwood.Some people in my club go as far as cutting a hole in a small Tupperware then inject Excel into it to concentrate the area.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

I think BBA is usually considered due to fauna overstocking and low CO2 as well as high current, which it really likes too. Its a problem for most everyone, and you may well not be overstocked - so don't take that wrong. 

But my more heavily stocked tank does get it faster. That said, I think that Excel chemical warfare is the easiest weapon, along with higher CO2 concentrations. With a good regimen, you can virtually eliminate it and only have a rare tuft every once in a while. Its interesting that you get it in your gravel. I tend to have it showup on my driftwood, or older plant leaves, rarely on my substrate, though I have seen it there occasionally. Goodluck!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Betowess said:


> I think BBA is usually considered due to fauna overstocking and low CO2 as well as high current, which it really likes too. Its a problem for most everyone, and you may well not be overstocked - so don't take that wrong.
> 
> But my more heavily stocked tank does get it faster. That said, I think that Excel chemical warfare is the easiest weapon, along with higher CO2 concentrations. With a good regimen, you can virtually eliminate it and only have a rare tuft every once in a while. Its interesting that you get it in your gravel. I tend to have it showup on my driftwood, or older plant leaves, rarely on my substrate, though I have seen it there occasionally. Goodluck!



I think this hit it on the head, lots of fish, too much fish perhaps, and too little plants.

Substrate algae = easy to get rid of.

I call it burial.
Simply rotate the top layer under 1-2".

But excel nor other methods are going to address much, I always have been one to treat the cause, not the symptom.

The BBA will simply grow right back if you merely kill what's there.

I think this tank has too many fish/too little plants.

You can mitigate with 50% water changes 3x a week.
That's a fair amount of work.
I've seen BBA in many tanks over the years, including over stocked non CO2 tanks.........we got rid of it by doing daily water changes on an automated system, maybe 20-30% daily. 2x the bioload in this tank and lots of wood and Java fern, which now looks awesome. So the CO2 while low, is very stable. So all that is left is the fish load. So it appears to be a "cause" as much as CO2 variation. 

I also do not see any KH2PO4 in the dosing.
Your plants nor tank will use nearly as much CO2 potential as it could.
Add it.

Add 25mls of flourish 3x a week
Add 1/4 teaspoon KH2PO4 3x a week
Add 3/4 teaspoon KNO3 3x a week

Stop Excel dosing for now.

See what occurs after you do this.
If the CO2 is good, things should right themselves.
I'd still bump it a tad higher, and make sure you have decent water surface movement.

Temp=> 82-83 F is good.
Cables smables........hate them..........consider another sediment, and vacuum the sand and add more plants. That should loosen things up and take care of that for now. 

SAE's work well, they get old and lazy though.
Still, they do not treat the cause.

Excel is not something to add more than the suggested doses.
doing so places a lot of risk on the fish, shrimp and smaller critters as well as bacteria and plants. Don't breath the fumes either.

So you can use Excel, SAE's and increase water changes or lower fish load or get a larger tank etc and work on tweaking the CO2, add lots more plants, add some ferts etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## crash69 (May 14, 2005)

Betowess said:


> I think BBA is usually considered due to fauna overstocking and low CO2 as well as high current, which it really likes too. Its a problem for most everyone, and you may well not be overstocked - so don't take that wrong.


Thanks, and no problem taking the wrong way you are probably right. 



plantbrain said:


> I think this hit it on the head, lots of fish, too much fish perhaps, and too little plants.
> 
> I think this tank has too many fish/too little plants.
> 
> ...


Thanks, the more I think about this the more it makes sense, I feed my Discus very well :redface: so the effective bioload would be quite high.. 



plantbrain said:


> So you can use Excel, SAE's and increase water changes or lower fish load or get a larger tank etc and work on tweaking the CO2, add lots more plants, add some ferts etc.


I really appreciate the response Tom, I was hoping you would jump in as you helped me before with BGA troubles in the same tank nearly 2 years ago - http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/algae/20558-bga-oz.html

It's certainly given me something to think about, I might have to sell a couple of my discus :eek5: and put the proceeds into more plants... in the meantime I'll up the w/c's, and think about a way to automate them as well.


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## crash69 (May 14, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> I also do not see any KH2PO4 in the dosing.
> Your plants nor tank will use nearly as much CO2 potential as it could.
> Add it.
> 
> ...


Tom - I haven't been dosing KH2PO4 because my test kit shows a fair amount already. I don't trust the test enough to qoute a number but certainly it would seem greater than 2.0. Should I still add 1/4 teaspoon week?

And one last question, constant CO2 is what is recommended to avoid BBA, but I find with the size of my tank, it takes 12-24 hours for the CO2 to "stabilise" after a 35% change. Would I be better lowering the CO2 to say 15-20 and dosing excel daily at the the recommnended amount or less?


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## MemphisBob (May 2, 2007)

Not to speak for Tom, but the last time he answered that I believe his opinion was to add anyway. Reasoning being that PO4 in itself is not highly dangerous to fish or inverts under 10 ppm or so. The dose suggested adds ~6ppm weekly which even if you have 2ppm isn't over 10. Consider that you're probably using a test kit that hasn't been verified as to correctness and that some PO4 can show in the test but be unusable to plants.

Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong.


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## crash69 (May 14, 2005)

Update:

I have sold 3 of my discus :icon_cry: and removed another to reduce the bio-load, I also cut back the excel dosage to the recommended amount every 2nd day, and started adding KH2PO4 every 3 days.

I also upped the CO2 to around 40-45ppm, but the discus started to show signs of stress (hiding, dark/stress bars showing, loss of appetite, easily spooked etc) so I did a another w/c and cut the CO2 back to around 30. 

Net result is that there is more new growth of BBA, and I'm noticing some tufts growing on a couple of the plants now, not just on the gravel. I suspect the o/dosing excel I have been doing was "almost" holding it at bay and now it's growing a bit more freely.

I'll go back to dosing excel daily at the recommended amount, and when I get a chance to get to the LFS add some more plants - this is really frustrating  , I feel like I have to choose between Discus or a Planted tank not both together :angryfire


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## cornhusker (Jan 26, 2005)

*excell & co2 resistant bba*

I agree totally with tom barr on using excell only as directed.it seems to me that using excell on a non co2 tank is a better choice.allthough all of my tanks are low tech and highly stocked, i have many plants in each tank.but i change 50% of the water every week because of the many fish.excell is added at that time per seachem's instructions,along with all of the dry ferts available.i have only to put up with a very small amount of green spot once in a while.i donot add anything else until next water change.inmo co2 is a better choice for high lit tanks,if you can master the amount and stabillization.you might have been a little hasty selling those fish,instead of adding more plants. cornhusker


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

There was a day long before Excel and folks had discus and no BBA........
I think once you destabilize a tank..................it has algae etc, you have to do a lot more effort to rectify the system and get it back where it was, after 2 weeks or so, then things settle down.

When BBA and some other species bloom, they do not do so just once or just asap and that's it............many plant seeds also do not bloom and germinate all at once either.

Some hang out and then bloom a little bit later, maybe 1 month. some bloom early etc.

BBA likely falls into this group.
I've seen this occur even after the CO2 etc is corrected, but it slowly goes away and trimming and removing all you can manually really does help a gret deal.

Of course most are lazy like myself and want an _easy out_.

However, you do gain a lot from aggressive manual removal of all types of algae *if you treat the cause rather than the symptom. Then all that work you do, and selectivity is not done in vain.*

Problem is, many do not treat the cause.
So all that work and no gain makes them give up.

I can tell folks this, but it just takes time for them to believe you.
Many who have been in the hobby for a few years still believe it.
But it's the same old thing time and time again.

They treat things, then see it still coming on, then think that it's not working.
One single herbicide treatment rarely ever kills all the weeds you might have and all it takes a few new ones popping up to cause a big issue again. 

So if you are aggressive and attack it, eventually the tank rights itself and the algae die back.

The algae are trying their all to survive and reproduce spores till the next season, so you have to realize it a very intense mechanism.

So you need to doa lot of work to beat it back for a few weeks, then you can sit on easy street later and just make sure you keep up on things, watch the plants, take good care of your tank.

Amano tanks and any nice scape you see is very well tended.
They manually prune and clean things a lot.



Regards,
Tom Barr


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## crash69 (May 14, 2005)

Thanks cornhusker & Tom,

I sold the fish based on Tom's post above suspecting I have too many fish and not enough plants, I can always buy some more later :hihi: The message I'm getting loud & clear :smile: is now I've changed some things I need to keep removing the BBA as much as I can, and wait for the tank to stabilise. The only thing I will change in the next few days is to get some more plants when I can.

I have signed up to Tom Barr's newsletters trying to learn more, Something that I'm starting to understand is how more plants can help. 

Maybe there is some equation we can work on, 
"Many Plants" + "Regular Dosing" + "Proper Pruning" + "Manual Algae Removal" + "Good CO2" + "Reasonable Fishload" + "Surface Movement" + "Good Filtration" + "Filter Maintenaince" + "Regular Waterchanges" + "Reasonable Lighting" + "Algae Eaters" + "Stabilty" + "No Sunlight" = "LOW ALGAE" :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:


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