# Tips of plant leaves missing



## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Nutrient deficiency is a really common and really difficult thing to pin down at times. One of the reasons for using some form of standard dosing like EI is to provide those nutrients. EI dosing is done on the idea of overdosing all the macros and micros and then doing a 50% water change to reduce that overdose. 
Suggestions on dosing will get you answers from far left to far right and not all of those are possible to work out, depending on lots of variables. 
So it may be necessary to study the issue and the way I have gone is to look over some of the nutrient deficiency projects. That is something of a baseline to start and then one may have to go through and sort out if that info actually matches what you have. There are many times when it will work but also some times when it doesn't. Nature has an almost unlimited number of ways to mess with our minds!! 
You are likely to get many proposed solutions and some may work but keep in mind that there are really lots of things to make those solutions less than perfect at times.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

PlantedRich said:


> Nutrient deficiency is a really common and really difficult thing to pin down at times. One of the reasons for using some form of standard dosing like EI is to provide those nutrients. EI dosing is done on the idea of overdosing all the macros and micros and then doing a 50% water change to reduce that overdose.
> 
> Suggestions on dosing will get you answers from far left to far right and not all of those are possible to work out, depending on lots of variables.
> 
> ...




I added a second root tab to the larger sword because I did notice some very slight leaf curling and I know they’re heavy root feeders. I have a couple of Ozelot swords with root tabs under them, but they’re small, and so far only one is showing promising new growth. 

Thank you for the advice. I can’t find anything for missing tips barring being food for fish, but the only plant eaters in this tank right now are a bristlenose pleco and a couple of nerite snails.


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Have you tested for N,P? Are you dosing N,P? Why are you adding Ca from 4 different sources.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> Have you tested for N,P? Are you dosing N,P? Why are you adding Ca from 4 different sources.




I haven’t tested for nitrate in a couple of weeks but last time it read about 10 ppm. 4 sources? I know Flourish and the root tabs would have some in it. I’m dosing the API mainly for the invertebrates as I had some shrimp that were having major molting issues. But that has gone away. Come to think of it, I’ve been adding a small amount of iodide on water change day for them as well...could that have something to do with it?

No I haven’t been adding phosphorus because I had an explosion of brown diatom and I thought that meant that particular element was really high.


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

varanidguy said:


> I haven’t tested for nitrate in a couple of weeks but last time it read about 10 ppm. 4 sources? I know Flourish and the root tabs would have some in it. I’m dosing the API mainly for the invertebrates as I had some shrimp that were having major molting issues. But that has gone away. Come to think of it, I’ve been adding a small amount of iodide on water change day for them as well...could that have something to do with it?
> 
> No I haven’t been adding phosphorus because I had an explosion of brown diatom and I thought that meant that particular element was really high.


What is the source of the Nitrates? How are you testing it? Looks like the tips are turning brown and falling off.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> What is the source of the Nitrates? How are you testing it? Looks like the tips are turning brown and falling off.


The livestock and feeding them. It's a 40 breeder with 10 neons, 9 black neons, 6 cories, one blue ram, a bristlenose pleco, two nerite snails, and some shrimp. I am using the API Master Test Kit, and when shaking the second bottle, I'm shaking and beating the everloving you-know-what out of it.

If the tips are turning brown and falling off, is that a nitrogen/nitrate issue with it being too low?


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

varanidguy said:


> The livestock and feeding them. It's a 40 breeder with 10 neons, 9 black neons, 6 cories, one blue ram, a bristlenose pleco, two nerite snails, and some shrimp. I am using the API Master Test Kit, and when shaking the second bottle, I'm shaking and beating the everloving you-know-what out of it.
> 
> If the tips are turning brown and falling off, is that a nitrogen/nitrate issue with it being too low?


Could very well be N and/or P issue. It's always better to dose everything IMO then rely on fish waste/food. When you do that your could easily run out and your keeping your tank full of organics that can easily result in an algae issue depending on your lights, etc.

If your sticking with Seachem for now (dry ferts are much cheaper), lose the root tabs (pretty much the same thing as Flourish in a different form and add Seachem Nitrogen and Phosphorus. Keep up with water changes.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> Could very well be N and/or P issue. It's always better to dose everything IMO then rely on fish waste/food. When you do that your could easily run out and your keeping your tank full of organics that can easily result in an algae issue depending on your lights, etc.
> 
> If your sticking with Seachem for now (dry ferts are much cheaper), lose the root tabs (pretty much the same thing as Flourish in a different form and add Seachem Nitrogen and Phosphorus. Keep up with water changes.


Well I'm using Black Diamond for substrate, which is innert, hence the root tabs. And their analysis indicates that it's way more concentrated than liquid Flourish but it's a time release thing. Would just dosing the water column be enough for root feeders like swords, crypts, and ludwigia?

Would a phosphate test kit be warranted now? Are there any other recommendations for testing nitrate? I change 10 gallons of water religiously ever Saturday on the tank, so about 25% accounting for water displacement (according to the calculators, the dimensions of the tank put it overall over 40 gallons). What about iron? Could that be related to this problem?

So I’m pretty sure the brown tips are thanks to diatom algae. I was just able to reach in and scrub it off and now the tip is no longer brown. It’s not the plant itself.

Before and after.
















Really starting to think it's a nitrogen issue...maybe adding Excel was a bad idea without adding additional nitrogen.


----------



## koolaid235 (Oct 1, 2017)

Ok so if if your using ro water make sure to add plant ferts potassium. Nitrogen. Phosferus . Iron plants also need trace elements seachem has great ferts I use them all if you use them all including excel your plants should do fine even your fish will take the nutrients threw there gills 

Gh and kh play a big role never go over 8 gH or 5 KH and never go below 2 gh that will lead to heath problem if you have a buff substrate never have a kH higher then 2 or it will eat up your buffs using ro water is best for that 

To water makes it so you can basicly make your water as perfict as you can to for your fish 

In my tank I have shrimp neos and caradena with cardinal and ember tetra . I have ro water witch is a pH of 7.0 with the buff substrate it makes my water stable so I can then inject co2 that will become carbonic acid that will lower my pH to what I want . I wanted a pH of 6.2 perfict for all my plants and animals then I added reminarolizer to get a gh at 6 and my kh is at 0 . 

All in all ro rules if you have the time to deal with it lol but you can use tap water and add ro water to make it the way you want too









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

koolaid235 said:


> Ok so if if your using ro water make sure to add plant ferts potassium. Nitrogen. Phosferus . Iron plants also need trace elements seachem has great ferts I use them all if you use them all including excel your plants should do fine even your fish will take the nutrients threw there gills
> 
> Gh and kh play a big role never go over 8 gH or 5 KH and never go below 2 gh that will lead to heath problem if you have a buff substrate never have a kH higher then 2 or it will eat up your buffs using ro water is best for that
> 
> ...


I'm not using RO water.


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

You might have diatom algae too, but the pics clearly show missing and discolored plant tips.

Either way the best course of action is to provide everything and remove it with water changes. This keep the water clean (less algae) and assures nothing will run short.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> You might have diatom algae too, but the pics clearly show missing and discolored plant tips.
> 
> 
> 
> Either way the best course of action is to provide everything and remove it with water changes. This keep the water clean (less algae) and assures nothing will run short.




Okay, I bit the bullet and purchased nitrogen and phosphate, the Seachem versions. Given I’m low tech, medium-low light, should I just dose on the low end? Am I going to have to start doubling my water change volume? If so would it be okay to do 25% twice a week rather than 50% all in one day?


----------



## benstatic (Oct 15, 2017)

To me (who is more familiar with unsubmerged epiphytes) - what you have looks is classic hard water / salt burns on the leaf tips. But does that apply underwater? Excess salts get ejected (by the plant) onto the outer most leaf margin. The salts being leeched out of the plant make the leaf tips more susceptible to light damage.

I'd try one of two things, either you are overloaded on ferts - where your plant is overdosing on a particular salt or mineral.
Or your leaf tips are too close to the light and getting scorched. 

If it were my tank, I would probably reduce or stop fertilizing for a week or two, and do a big water change or two. (I'd try this first).
Or I would raise the lights by 2-4" (if the first fails)

Not sure either would work, but that is what I would try.
<EDIT - didn't read that you are able to scrape off the algae with your fingers>. its not light damage then, but I would still think about how your plant is likely leaching a tiny about of its salts onto the leaf tip and algae is finding a nice home there.


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

varanidguy said:


> Okay, I bit the bullet and purchased nitrogen and phosphate, the Seachem versions. Given I’m low tech, medium-low light, should I just dose on the low end? Am I going to have to start doubling my water change volume? If so would it be okay to do 25% twice a week rather than 50% all in one day?


At the end of the day, the simplest method to run a tank to me is the EI approach and one of the reasons it's so popular. it requires the least amount of guessing since your only assuring that nothing runs out. All the tanks in my signature links are run using the EI Method. I dose them all the same, I don't care if they're heavily planted or barely planted I dose toward the high end of the range There is no proof that the inorganics salts (NPK) that you dump in cause algae. All the tanks get a 50% weekly water change. I don't even test parameters I only monitor co2 and temp.

_Water changes= algae hates it, plants like it.
You need another reason?

If you trim and make a mess, this often pulls up sediment, which in turns lowers O2 levels.
Removing the muck and detritus is best done with a water change.

Water changes add more O2.
Water changes = fish like them.

These are very basic reasons to do them and it removes many of the unknowns you cannot see.
Then you can also add ferts easily over a used defined range with a high degree of confidence without test kits.
So...........given this...........it's a pretty simple reason to do them.

ADG, myself, Amano, Oliver Knott, top aquascapers world wide all do them.
We all tell folks to do them independent of each other and came to similar conclusion. Same with a good LFS.
Maybe we are all wrong and it is bad advice, but I'd not bet on it.

While a few folks can and will avoid water changes, I've not seen them win many accolades either. There are some methods and management methods to reduce them certainly..........but new folks and general advice? Hell fricking no._

_Tom Barr, Aug 9, 2015_


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> At the end of the day, the simplest method to run a tank to me is the EI approach and one of the reasons it's so popular. it requires the least amount of guessing since your only assuring that nothing runs out. All the tanks in my signature links are run using the EI Method. I dose them all the same, I don't care if they're heavily planted or barely planted I dose toward the high end of the range There is no proof that the inorganics salts (NPK) that you dump in cause algae. All the tanks get a 50% weekly water change. I don't even test parameters I only monitor co2 and temp.
> 
> _Water changes= algae hates it, plants like it.
> You need another reason?
> ...




Oh I don’t avoid water changes. I do mine religiously every week, but currently doing 25% water changes.


----------



## koolaid235 (Oct 1, 2017)

varanidguy said:


> Oh I don’t avoid water changes. I do mine religiously every week, but currently doing 25% water changes.


I do mine every other week

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi varanidguy,

Welcome to TPT!

When it comes to diagnosing possible plant deficiencies the power of observation is your best tool; to the best of your ability I would like you to describe what you see in each picture.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi varanidguy,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you!

I see some leaf curling. Brown diatom on the tips. I can tell you that since moving to the larger tank with deeper substrate and root tabs, the sword seems to be doing better.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi varanidguy,
> 
> Welcome to TPT!
> 
> ...


 You are absolutely correct; that new leaf is displaying curling of the leaf margin


So what are these plants telling us? Do any of these descriptions seem to describe what we are seeing?



> Symptoms appearing first or most severely on new growth (root and shoot tips, new leaves)
> 
> A. Terminal bud usually dies. Symptoms on new growth.
> 
> ...


Now, you might say 'but my dGH = 7.0, how could I have a calcium deficiency?' Good question, when we measure dGH we are measuring the total amount of Ca++ and Mg++ ions in the solution. Now a 7.0 dGH hardness indicates we have about 117 ppm total Ca++ and Mg++ ions in solution. Each water source is different but typically the Ca:Mg ratio is somewhere in the 3:1 to 4:1 range. So of the 116 ppm approximately 90 ppm is Ca++ and 30 ppm is Mg++. Now for the big finish, most of the Ca++ and Mg++ ions in our General Hardness (dGH) are in the form or calcium carbonate or magnesium carbonate. How much? Up to 59% can be (CaCO3) and up to 39% can be magnesium carbonate (MgCO3); both of which are very difficult for plants to utilize (even more so in alkaline conditions with PH>7.0). Those are extremes however, most of the time about 20% of the total Calcium in our dGH is in the form of Ca++ ions which are easy for plants to use. So, looking at your 7.0 dGH of that 90 ppm of calcium only 18 ppm is possibly available at Ca++ ions for your plants to utilize. But that is only an approximation, your actual amount of Ca++ ions available for your plants could easily be less.

What to do? I would suggest dosing Seachem Equilibrium which contains calcium sulfate, magnesium sulfate, potassium sulfate, iron, and manganese. Calcium sulfate (CaSO4) when dissolved in water provides Ca++ ions attached to a SO4 ion which are easy for plants to utilize for growth. I would start with sufficient to increase the hardness in your tank by 2 dGH to 9 dGH. *Then watch your new leaves as they emerge for the next 2-3 weeks*; the older existing leaves will likely not change or change very little. Do the new leaves look better? Greener? No ruffled leaf margins or 'hooked tips'? If they look better, but not perfect you can try increasing your dGH a little higher. Remember to add sufficient Equilibrium to replace what you have removed during a water change; if you remove 10 gallons from your tank add sufficient to increase the dGH of 10 gallons by 2 dGH.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> You are absolutely correct; that new leaf is displaying curling of the leaf margin
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So I add Flourish and API calcium. Obviously the form of calcium in the API bottle isn’t able to be utilized by plants. So, my question is, should I measure my tap water and use enough to increase dGH to 9 or stick to by 2 for tap water?


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi varanidguy,

I cannot find the ingredients for API Marine Calcium but since it is supposed to support growth for marine corals, which are basically limestone / calcium carbonate I would guess that it is calcium carbonate. If that is the case most of the calcium will not be usable by your plants.

I would skip the API Marine Coral from now on and just dose Seachem Equilibrium. Do a 50% water change to help 'reset' the aquarium, check your tank dGH, then add sufficient Equilibrium to increase the hardness by 2 dGH. Then watch you plants.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi varanidguy,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you. Sounds like a good plan.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Received the shipment of Equilibrium today. Along with Nitrogen and Phosphorus. Fingers crossed things improve.

Should I prune off the undesirable and deficient leaves then watch the new growth, or leave as is and watch the new growth?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## koolaid235 (Oct 1, 2017)

varanidguy said:


> Received the shipment of Equilibrium today. Along with Nitrogen and Phosphorus. Fingers crossed things improve.
> 
> Should I prune off the undesirable and deficient leaves then watch the new growth, or leave as is and watch the new growth?
> 
> ...


Good key ingredients. no just watch nature do it's thing. I stopped adding ferts I'm battling brown diatoms and I'm winning lol haaa Go otos 
Go









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

koolaid235 said:


> Good key ingredients. no just watch nature do it's thing. I stopped adding ferts I'm battling brown diatoms and I'm winning lol haaa Go otos
> Go
> 
> 
> ...




Otos, nerite snails, and bristlenose plecos do WONDERS for brown diatoms and other soft algae.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

My planned dosing is Equilibrium on water changes. Macros twice a week, micros twice a week, and a 25% water change weekly. Since it’s a medium-ish light tank and no co2, I don’t think it should need more than that. Of course dosing and water changes will be adjusted if necessary. Does that sound like a fair plan?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

varanidguy said:


> Received the shipment of Equilibrium today. Along with Nitrogen and Phosphorus. Fingers crossed things improve.
> 
> Should I prune off the undesirable and deficient leaves then watch the new growth, or leave as is and watch the new growth?
> 
> ...


Hi varanidguy,

I wouldn't prune the deficient leaves rather just observe the new growth; you can use the older deficient leaves for comparison to see if positive changes are occurring.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi varanidguy,
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't prune the deficient leaves rather just observe the new growth; you can use the older deficient leaves for comparison to see if positive changes are occurring.




Fair enough.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

varanidguy said:


> My planned dosing is Equilibrium on water changes. Macros twice a week, micros twice a week, and a 25% water change weekly. Since it’s a medium-ish light tank and no co2, I don’t think it should need more than that. Of course dosing and water changes will be adjusted if necessary. Does that sound like a fair plan?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hi varanidguy,

Your plants will let you know if you are dosing sufficient, or often enough. I would do a 50% water change to start to 'reset' the tank and then add your nutrients.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi varanidguy,
> 
> 
> 
> Your plants will let you know if you are dosing sufficient, or often enough. I would do a 50% water change to start to 'reset' the tank and then add your nutrients.




Could that risk shocking the fish?


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi varanidguy,

It shouldn't as long as the temperature of the new water is +/- 3 degrees of the existing water and PH in your tank is not significantly different than the tap water. I do 50% water changes regularly with Cardinal Tetras, rainbowfish, and Apistorgrammas with no ill effects....don't forget to dose your chlorine neutralizer.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi varanidguy,
> 
> 
> 
> It shouldn't as long as the temperature of the new water is +/- 3 degrees of the existing water and PH in your tank is not significantly different than the tap water. I do 50% water changes regularly with Cardinal Tetras, rainbowfish, and Apistorgrammas with no ill effects....don't forget to dose your chlorine neutralizer.




Of course. I used to do 50% on a smaller tank with Blue rams. I’m more or less talking about mineral content/nutrient levels shifting.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

So, I added nitrogen and phosphorus to my dosing regimen. Also did a large water change and added Equilibrium. The plants seem to have mostly responded well, but now another issue is coming to light.

I’m thinking magnesium and/or iron deficiency.

Here are some pictures. Side note, I added some Ludwigia repens and the leaves shedding is real! They came from a farm in FL. But they have almost completely stopped shedding and are now growing new leaves and they are starting to look good, growth seems fairly rapid. The seller even added a free bundle of moneywort.

Anyway, here are the pics. Currently dosing NPK twice weekly, Flourish for micros twice weekly, and dosing Excel. Using Equilibrium on water change day.

















The Java fern is already looking better, though.










Any ideas for the deficiencies present in the first two photos?


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi varanidguy,

It's only been a few days, lets go another week or so before we try analyzing for additional problems. Remember that older, existing leaves will show little improvement, in fact if they have gone too far the old leaves may continue to decline.....we are going to be watching new emerging leaves and any new growth since the change was implemented.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi varanidguy,
> 
> 
> 
> It's only been a few days, lets go another week or so before we try analyzing for additional problems. Remember that older, existing leaves will show little improvement, in fact if they have gone too far the old leaves may continue to decline.....we are going to be watching new emerging leaves and any new growth since the change was implemented.




Would adding Flourish Iron and a small amount of Epsom salt hurt?


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi varanidguy,

Equilibrium contains both magnesium and iron, just be patient and see how things progress.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi varanidguy,
> 
> 
> 
> Equilibrium contains both magnesium and iron, just be patient and see how things progress.




Okay.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi varanidguy,
> 
> 
> 
> Equilibrium contains both magnesium and iron, just be patient and see how things progress.




I do have a question about dosing Equilibrium. When I perform my next water change, should I use enough to only treat the replacement water or should I dose to my tank volume?


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi varanidguy,

Dose 1 teaspoon of Equilibrium per 10 gallons of new water added (since when you removed the old water you also removed some of the Equilibrium you just dosed).


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi varanidguy,
> 
> 
> 
> Dose 1 teaspoon of Equilibrium per 10 gallons of new water added (since when you removed the old water you also removed some of the Equilibrium you just dosed).




Thank you for all of your help!


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi varanidguy,

Glad to offer assistance, keep us posted as to how things go in a week or two.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

So, I have been doing NPK liquid twice a week and micros (Flourish) twice a week, and Equilibrium on water change day, and I think I’ve seen an improvement.

The new growth on the ludwigia repens is looking good to me. The sword is still having a bit of a problem but it’s not nearly as pronounced. New growth on the anubias looks better and the new growth on the windelov looks like it’s growing in proper.

How ‘bout to the more experienced people?







































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi varanidguy,

I agree, new growth shows definite improvement! The new growth of both the Ludwigia and 'Windelov' seem to be coming in very well.

Keep dosing everything including the Equilibrium as you have been but I think I see some interveinal chlorosis on the newer Anubias leaves? If so, add some Seachem Flourish Iron to your dosing, dose per directions and see if the next Anubias leaves come in more uniform in color.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi varanidguy,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Done! Already got the iron ahead of time just in case. I’ll update in another week’s time or so. I’ve also been noticing some green spot algae on older anubias leaves so I’m going to increase dosing Seachem Phosphorus.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

New growth is looking better. The amazon sword is gradually getting a darker/richer green to it. The Ludwigia repens is really turning bushy. The S. repens is growing well. What do you think?





















































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

So the GSA on the anubias plants isn’t going away. Phosphates around 3ppm. Could it be that they’re getting too much light? Beamswork DA FSPEC is on the tank ran for 8 hours a day. None of the other plants have GSA on them, including the java ferns.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @varanidguy,

Sorry for the delayed response, life got a little busy here!

First, yes it looks like just about all of the species are responding positively. The old leaves look the same as we expected however the new leaves are straighter, greener, healthier looking, and thicker......it looks like you are on the right path. I am glad you are making progress!

Don't expect the old GSA to go away, it will likely be there until the leaf dies. More important is the GSA showing up on the new leaves or not....if not then don't worry. If it were me I would maintain what I am doing for several weeks now and see if consistent healthy new growth continues to occur.

Again, sorry for the delay, next time PM me or @Seattle_Aquarist if you need a quicker response.

-Roy


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @varanidguy,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you Roy!

I have noticed a new problem now. lol

The s repens and crypt undulata red have what looks like torn leaves. Not the little pinholes that are indicative of potassium deficiency. Any ideas?

















These are my most recent test results. The approximately numbers are there because I couldn’t quite tell the difference on the color charts between the two readings. Phosphate I listed as 1.5 because it looked like it fell somewhere between 1 and 2 ppm color wise.










Edit: some of the leaves on the Ludwigia repens has the same “tears”, but it’s only on the old emersed growth, the new submerged growth has no symptoms of deficiencies that I can see.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @varanidguy,

The leaves on the crypt appear to be older leaves that likely existed before you starting dosing the Equilibrium; the new leaves however look great. Remember what I said in post #35:


> Remember that older, existing leaves will show little improvement, in fact if they have gone too far the old leaves may continue to decline.....we are going to be watching new emerging leaves and any new growth since the change was implemented.


Equilibrium has Ca, Mg, K, Fe, and Mn so you should be covered.....just keep monitoring the new growth and if leaves deteriorate too far remove them before they start to melt and decompose.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @varanidguy,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well, that’s what concerns me. The tears didn’t appear until recently and the s repens was added after beginning that routine.

Edit: I just realized that, if it matters, both the s repens and crypt undulata were purchased from Petsmart and they were from the tissue culture pouches they sell.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

varanidguy said:


> Well, that’s what concerns me. The tears didn’t appear until recently and the s repens was added after beginning that routine.
> 
> Edit: I just realized that, if it matters, both the s repens and crypt undulata were purchased from Petsmart and they were from the tissue culture pouches they sell.


Hi varanidguy,

If they were tissue culture then they were emersed grown; the new leaves should be fine but the leaves that were on the plants when purchased will likely die off.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi varanidguy,
> 
> 
> 
> If they were tissue culture then they were emersed grown; the new leaves should be fine but the leaves that were on the plants when purchased will likely die off.




Sincerely, thank you for all your help!

I will keep an eye on the plants and update as needed/in due time. 

You’re awesome!


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Super aggressive trimming to remove GSA and damaged sword leaves. Since adding co2, new growth is near perfect, but GSA will not go away without manual removal. It was causing leaves on the ludwigia to shed which just added more organics to the water. Had to be done but now I hurt. lol


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @varanidguy,

Your tank is looking pretty darn good, congratulations! Even better, you know what to watch out for in the future and how to remedy it.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @varanidguy,
> 
> Your tank is looking pretty darn good, congratulations! Even better, you know what to watch out for in the future and how to remedy it.


Thank you! Today was a quasi-reset button. The Beamswork DA FSPEC is too much without co2 for a 40 breeder. Added the co2 system about two and a half weeks ago now, new growth is coming in looking amazing, but the old growth was damaged and riddled with GSA. Had to finally n** up and cull the bad tissue. But...it has opened avenues! Bidding on some a. reineckii mini right now, and maybe the s repens will really spread now. It grew nice and bushy without co2 but runners weren't happening. Also the amazon sword leaves started getting tears in them and the new growth didn't look right...until adding co2 and now it's beautiful. After some research, I'm certain it was literally a co2 deficiency in the sword (thanks to the light).

I cannot thank you enough for your help in this thread, your advice is invaluable. I'll continue to update as things progress!


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Post aggressive trimming results. In just a few days the results are already fantastic! I have some a reineckii mini coming soon, thinking of adding some indica. What do you all think?


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @varanidguy,

Looking good and looking forward to your updates!


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @varanidguy,
> 
> 
> 
> Looking good and looking forward to your updates!




Thank you! Do you think rotala indica could do well? Water is kept 82-83 degrees, dKH-4, dGH-9, following EI dosing using Thrive by NilocG. Co2 and 7 hour photoperiod of medium-high light.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

varanidguy said:


> Thank you! Do you think rotala indica could do well? Water is kept 82-83 degrees, dKH-4, dGH-9, following EI dosing using Thrive by NilocG. Co2 and 7 hour photoperiod of medium-high light.


Hi varanidguy,

Sorry, I have not kept that species - possibly someone who has can chime in!


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi varanidguy,
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I have not kept that species - possibly someone who has can chime in!




It’s okay. I wound up winning an auction of a reineckii mini, but USPS is majorly delayed (looking like it’s going to take around 6 days to arrive so I’m not sure if it’ll even be alive tomorrow, I’m pretty upset about it).

Also ordered some dwarf chain swords and pogostemon [emoji51]! from Dustin’s Fishtanks. I’m nervous about the pogo but we shall see. What I’ve read is that it’s a good indicator plant for nutrients.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Sorry I haven’t updated in a while. Suffice it to say that algae and plants not growing is no longer an issue...quite the opposite actually.

I added some Controsoil under the sand. Upgraded my light. Plus the co2 system, now the challenge is keeping the plants groomed enough to allow light penetration all the way to the substrate lol.


----------



## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Wow! The growth is amazing! I read through this whole thread to see the progression of your plants and what used to combat issues. Im thinking I may also need to add some Equilibrium to my dosing. 
Great job!


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> Wow! The growth is amazing! I read through this whole thread to see the progression of your plants and what used to combat issues. Im thinking I may also need to add some Equilibrium to my dosing.
> 
> Great job!




Wow thank you! I can tell you that the a reineckii is suffering in the shade. It’s going to get a substantial trim this weekend. Also thinking of removing the albino bristlenose pleco because I think he’s rasping the plants to hell. [emoji29]


----------



## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Yeah, I have a 6" Blue phantom Pleco in my discus tank that will decimate any swords or plants with larger leaves. His mouth is a real shredder, lol!


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> Yeah, I have a 6" Blue phantom Pleco in my discus tank that will decimate any swords or plants with larger leaves. His mouth is a real shredder, lol!




But they’re so pretty.


----------



## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

He is:


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> He is:




That is so beautiful!


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Post trimming!

Lots of tissue removed, but the a reineckii was worse than I thought. So I trimmed off all the damaged tissue and crossing my fingers it grows back.


----------



## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

The pink-reddish crypts are beautiful- what variety is this?


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> The pink-reddish crypts are beautiful- what variety is this?




Those are crypt undulata “red”. Tissue culture from Petsmart!


----------



## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

OMG, lol! Wasn't expecting that answer


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> OMG, lol! Wasn't expecting that answer




I have had nothing but success with their tissue culture pouches, the tubes are really hit or miss though.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

So, I’m having some issues with my bacopa(?).

It appears to be some kind of deficiency but I can’t narrow it down. Combination of calcium and....nitrogen?! Any ideas?


----------



## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

Could be quite a few things. Downward hooking on leaves is a sign of calcium deficiency but could be due to other things like excessive Mg.

I also think you might need more P looking at the glass behind the plant. 

What does your dosing look like?


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

natemcnutty said:


> Could be quite a few things. Downward hooking on leaves is a sign of calcium deficiency but could be due to other things like excessive Mg.
> 
> I also think you might need more P looking at the glass behind the plant.
> 
> What does your dosing look like?




The GDA is new, I haven’t had much in the way of GSA for a while now, except on a few anubias leaves.

My dosing regimen is following the directions with Thrive+ for EI dosing. 3x weekly with a 50% water change. My tap is kind of soft, so I add 5ml or one tablespoon for every 10 gallons of water changed.

I did add Controsoil not too long ago and I’ve noticed that it softens the water, but I figured the plants can absorb the calcium that the substrate is absorbing? These plants here are also clippings that I replanted, so their roots are still developing, but that was only 5 days ago. Do you think that could be harming them as well?

The water is 78-79 degrees and the dGH is about 5 with the soil, and 5 from the tap lol. Pre-soil, the tank would be about 8-9 dGH and 5 from the tap.


----------



## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

varanidguy said:


> The GDA is new, I haven’t had much in the way of GSA for a while now, except on a few anubias leaves.
> 
> My dosing regimen is following the directions with Thrive+ for EI dosing. 3x weekly with a 50% water change. My tap is kind of soft, so I add 5ml or one tablespoon for every 10 gallons of water changed.
> 
> ...


Hmm, 5 days may be a bit short to be able to tell, especially if they were grown in very different parameters. Having said that, Thrive+ should be covering your fertilizers just fine. The temps are probably fine too, but it would be good to review water hardness.

For tap water, you are saying it is 5 dGH from the tap? That's actually pretty nice, and I personally wouldn't bother with GH booster at that point unless you know the Mg content is pretty high (which point we'd look at adding some extra Ca and maybe K).

For the Controlsoil, it will slow down on how much Ca++ it steals from the water column. As for roots having access to the Ca being pulled to the soil, yes, they do. I honestly don't know enough of how Ca++ is taken up by leaves vs. roots. If your tap has a fairly high KH, but pH buffering of the Controsoil will diminish quite quickly. Right now, the soil will lower KH over time, but once that has been exhausted, KH will go back to whatever your tap values are (which means the pH will also go up).


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

natemcnutty said:


> Hmm, 5 days may be a bit short to be able to tell, especially if they were grown in very different parameters. Having said that, Thrive+ should be covering your fertilizers just fine. The temps are probably fine too, but it would be good to review water hardness.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The reason I was dosing Equilibrium is because several months ago, plants were showing signs of calcium deficiency, and adding it made that cease. The tap is 5 dGH and 4 dKH. It’s not bad, except it’s apparently weak in the calcium front [emoji29]

These plants were growing in this very same tank, I had some Pogostemon octopus that I wasn’t satisfied with anymore so I yanked it, trimmed this bacopa, and placed it where the pogo was.


----------



## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

Equilibrium has a very significant amount of Potassium as well, so that could also have been a contributing factor. 

If everything else has been looking good with the added Equilibrium, I think we might just need to wait a little bit longer to see how the new growth goes.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

natemcnutty said:


> Equilibrium has a very significant amount of Potassium as well, so that could also have been a contributing factor.
> 
> If everything else has been looking good with the added Equilibrium, I think we might just need to wait a little bit longer to see how the new growth goes.




Do you think it could be from h2o2? I treated some anubias leaves that were in direct light and started getting some on them. Right next to the bacopa.


----------



## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

varanidguy said:


> Do you think it could be from h2o2? I treated some anubias leaves that were in direct light and started getting some on them. Right next to the bacopa.


Depends on how long and how much, but I really doubt it. How is the flow in that spot, and is it getting a lot more light than it was previously?


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

natemcnutty said:


> Depends on how long and how much, but I really doubt it. How is the flow in that spot, and is it getting a lot more light than it was previously?




The flow is even throughout the tank. It’s a 40 breeder with a homemade spraybar that spans the width of the tank. All the plants sway and dance in the flow to a degree, without being able to blow the fish around.

I started experimenting this week also with really high light. A Finnex Planted+ 24/7 CC set to be full brightness by noon and ramped down by 9 PM. Means full brightness for about 7-8 hours. Plants were all looking nice on that schedule except the ludwigia repens drops the lower leaves, and I’ve read from many sources that’s due to light not penetrating deep enough for those leaves. So I’m running a Beamswork DA FSPEC for about two hours a day at around 4 PM to 6 PM to see what effects it’ll have.

The hygro sunset is looking amazing and the ludwigia doesn’t appear to be shedding leaves anymore, but I feel the latter is too early to tell still.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Okay, so the dGH of the tank is 6 degrees, tap is 5 degrees. So the soil is still absorbing a decent amount of minerals. The dKH is somewhere between 2 and 3 degrees, the solution noticeably changes color but wasn’t all the way yellow - from the tap dKH is also 5 degrees.

Nitrate is between 20 and 30 ppm, the solution was a richer orange than 20 ppm but it wasn’t red like 40 ppm. Phosphate measured about 0.5 ppm. 

This makes me wonder if I should dose more phosphate throughout the week.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ced281 (Jul 6, 2012)

varanidguy said:


> So I’m pretty sure the brown tips are thanks to diatom algae. I was just able to reach in and scrub it off and now the tip is no longer brown. It’s not the plant itself.
> 
> Before and after.
> 
> ...


So if the tips are getting covered in diatom algae, then you have your answer for why the tips of your plants are disappearing. The diatoms are absorbing all the light that would normally be directed to the cells in those plant tips, and the cells are dying as a result of starvation. Once the plant tips start dying, your algae and detritis eaters will come by and pick away at the dead plant matter until you're left with leaves missing their tip. Correct the diatom issue and you'll probably be fine.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

ced281 said:


> So if the tips are getting covered in diatom algae, then you have your answer for why the tips of your plants are disappearing. The diatoms are absorbing all the light that would normally be directed to the cells in those plant tips, and the cells are dying as a result of starvation. Once the plant tips start dying, your algae and detritis eaters will come by and pick away at the dead plant matter until you're left with leaves missing their tip. Correct the diatom issue and you'll probably be fine.




Oh that issue with the sword was solved a long time ago. Now I just gotta deal with a butt of a bristlenose pleco that likes to rasp plants lol


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @varanidguy

I noticed a little interveinal chlorosis in the swordplant in the photo above. If the leaf in the picture with an arrow pointing at it was a newer leaf you may want to bump up your iron (Fe) dosing a little. I didn't see any signs of nitrogen deficiency in that picture.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @varanidguy
> 
> I noticed a little interveinal chlorosis in the swordplant in the photo above. If the leaf in the picture with an arrow pointing at it was a newer leaf you may want to bump up your iron (Fe) dosing a little. I didn't see any signs of nitrogen deficiency in that picture.




Oh yeah, that’s an older picture. Iron levels have gone up and the swords are doing great apart from a little rasping from my bristlenose because he’s a jerk...


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

varanidguy said:


> Oh yeah, that’s an older picture. Iron levels have gone up and the swords are doing great apart from a little rasping from my bristlenose because he’s a jerk...


Hi varanidguy,

Yes, early in my journey with planted tanks I tried a pleco.......took it back to the LFS after 8 weeks - never tried a pleco again in a planted tank.


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi varanidguy,
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, early in my journey with planted tanks I tried a pleco.......took it back to the LFS after 8 weeks - never tried a pleco again in a planted tank.




Yeah, especially not a pure vegetarian. I could see one like a leopard frog pleco being okay because they prefer meat and wood rather than plants. I’m thinking about taking him in but he’s just so cool.


----------



## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

Yeah, I'd live with his shenanigans. Way too cool looking to trade in


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

natemcnutty said:


> Yeah, I'd live with his shenanigans. Way too cool looking to trade in




Thanks! I got him as a tiny fry, he was the third attempt at trying to get one to live. Named him Murphy.

Got a few CPO today too...super jazzed about that!


----------



## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

I’m going to remove the BN pleco and place him in a holding tank for a few weeks, try to retrain him to not eat the plants. He’s just doing a number on the swords, crypts, and bacopa. It’s causing the leaves to die which is raising the organic pollution in the water, I think. 

Also ordered a tissue culture of AR mini and a pot of staurogyne porto velho. I have been reading that the porto velho is a decent nutrient sponge.


----------

