# question on BKK and Wine Red and Panda shrimps



## Finalplay10 (Jun 29, 2010)

I'm not sure about the BKK but I'm almost positive that Wine Red doesn't pretty anywhere close to 100% true.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

No, they don't. You are being sold a bill of goods that is not yet possible. Unless there has been a big change in the last 6 months, king kong and red wine are both entirely unstable. King kong is a grade of cbs that is extremely hard to come by, that is why they fetch 500+ dollars each. You can have look alikes, some have messed up uropods, some don't have the eyebrows, but if you're looking to breed king kongs, you _HAVE_ to do it in the taiwan fashion, which is having hundreds upon hundreds of shrimp all breeding together, and just fishing out the perfect ones.

As far as I know, it's the same for red wines, they only kick out that translucentish dark red a small percentage of the time.

I think blue bolts are becoming stabilized now, and you can see the price dropping. There are chinese suppliers that are mass producing them.


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## janftica (Jan 11, 2010)

Yep that's what I thought, but my colleague argued with me that they were a stablized shrimp breeding 100% true BKK.

I read 3 years worth of research on them from the first time they were discovered up to yesterday, and everyone says they have had anything from red wine, red/black with tail spots, black with only one tail spot, half black/half red, brown and anything in between.

To me that is NOT a stable genetic pattern. JMO


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## nasty12 (Mar 24, 2008)

Just to share some experience .. i have been breeding KK/WR for 2generations now.
and they have given me KK/WR shrimplets.
I think it depends on where you purchase the shrimps from.
SO breeders breed them with Normal CRS/BDS and thus the next generation may have a few of such offsprings.


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## jiang604 (Dec 28, 2009)

nasty12 said:


> Just to share some experience .. i have been breeding KK/WR for 2generations now.
> and they have given me KK/WR shrimplets.
> I think it depends on where you purchase the shrimps from.
> SO breeders breed them with Normal CRS/BDS and thus the next generation may have a few of such offsprings.


Agreed, same things what I am getting. BKK x BKK will give you BKK 

keep in mind BKK includes pandas as that is just a low grade BKK.


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## Finalplay10 (Jun 29, 2010)

I also believe they were having problems with offspring being sterile in some cases. They are beautiful shrimp beyond a doubt. Just not worth the $$$ and tank space it requires to successfully breed them right now. Like Liem said you NEED to breed them in the Taiwan fashion to be successful and I can't even ponder how much it would cost you to get a set up like that going.


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## Rory (Jun 26, 2009)

taiwan version of breeding?


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Mass breeding for rogue genetics, haha. 

Nah, just tanking lots of great breeders and weeding out the best patterns and repeating. I know for a long time people were saying that king kong was lab created, same with wine reds, that they were genetically altered in a laboratory.

As far as I know, when bkk x bkk = sterile wine red, the genetics aren't stable. I know there were some people working that out, but I don't consider a gene pool that makes sterile mutants stable.

Now as far as bkk x bkk making bkk 100% of the time, that's impossible, just like SSS x SSS doesn't make SSS 100% of the time.

However, Jantifca by her own words, hasn't been able to breed CRS yet, and I think she should worry about that first. Who knows, maybe by the time she gets CRS breeding down, the KK market will be more profitable and stable.


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## Finalplay10 (Jun 29, 2010)

BKK's are nice but in my opinion the pandas are better looking. I'm willing to dish out some $$$ for shrimp but not that much $$$. Hopefully the panda market drops here soon (doubt it). Blue Bolts are nice as well but I'll probably wait til some of the other morphs become readily available before venturing into them.


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## kifeter (Sep 1, 2010)

Does anyone know what the going rate for these are and where to get them from? I really like the pandas and the blue bolts but I haven't seen them for sale anywhere yet. 
Thanks


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## jiang604 (Dec 28, 2009)

kifeter said:


> Does anyone know what the going rate for these are and where to get them from? I really like the pandas and the blue bolts but I haven't seen them for sale anywhere yet.
> Thanks


I've been told its around 500USD I sell for less but I don't ship to states.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

sponsor here: aquarium plus in seattle has one for 595 usd


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## kifeter (Sep 1, 2010)

Damn these are expensive!


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## jiang604 (Dec 28, 2009)

kifeter said:


> Damn these are expensive!


yahhh =)

here are a few pics of mine, working on something else at the moment, first one panda, second one also panda but is usually known as 2 bar BKK and last but not least is extreme BKK:


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## kifeter (Sep 1, 2010)

Very nice! Are you breeding them, and if you are, are you having any good results?


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## timwag2001 (Jul 3, 2009)

there was someone on ebay last year selling a panda for $900 i think. i think their name was dreamer yo yo.


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## timwag2001 (Jul 3, 2009)

sorry it was $800 a year ago. http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205063&highlight=king+kong


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## jiang604 (Dec 28, 2009)

kifeter said:


> Very nice! Are you breeding them, and if you are, are you having any good results?


i've had them for a long time and yes they breed similar to CRS. BKKxBKK 70-80% BKK with the rest being pandas. Pandas are basically BKK, just that they are low grade BKK. Panda x Panda and you get roughly 50/50


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## kifeter (Sep 1, 2010)

Jiang604- Do you sell them? If so, how much?


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

kifeter said:


> Jiang604- Do you sell them? If so, how much?


You don't even want to know how much these guys run for...

You are looking at a 500-800 per shrimp, shrimp....


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## kifeter (Sep 1, 2010)

That much even for the pandas? I wouldn't think it takes that much to get to be a panda. I understand it would be hard to get to BKK but pandas still have a decent amount of white on them.


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

kifeter said:


> That much even for the pandas? I wouldn't think it takes that much to get to be a panda. I understand it would be hard to get to BKK but pandas still have a decent amount of white on them.



Still the same, depending on what grade. I mean the regular panda is probably more towards the 500 area, but the 1 and 2 stripped pandas are more expensive.


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## jiang604 (Dec 28, 2009)

kifeter said:


> That much even for the pandas? I wouldn't think it takes that much to get to be a panda. I understand it would be hard to get to BKK but pandas still have a decent amount of white on them.


msnikkistar is right, but for Pandas I can do 350, 2 bar pandas 400

but for that price sex is selected randomly


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

I just need the price to go down 90%. Then I'll take a dozen.


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## jiang604 (Dec 28, 2009)

EKLiu said:


> I just need the price to go down 90%. Then I'll take a dozen.


not gonna happen anytime soon =P as people are asia are now on target to making patterns out of them.


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

Did I hear patterns!?! lol


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

Seems like it might be cheaper to crash the CRS market (hopefully taking panda and KK prices down a few notches), rather than paying $4-500 per shrimp.

Here's my somewhat diabolical plan (feedback is welcome):

Buy a huge aquarium. I've had my eye on a local person's 350 gal Tenecor tank with stand for $3500. Then fill it with CRS (imported ones would prpbably be cheap if bought in a huge quantity). This might cost $2K for the CRS. Let the shrimp breed for a while until the tank is nearly bursting from being stuffed with CRS. Then give the CRS away for free. I figure in a tank that big, you could get thousands of baby shrimp per month. All those free CRS will collapse low to mid end of the market since nobody will be paying for regular CRS any more. Then hopefully the breeders with the King Kong, Pandas, and Blue Bolt shrimp would feel the need to lower their prices at a rate faster than normal.


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## jiang604 (Dec 28, 2009)

EKLiu said:


> Seems like it might be cheaper to crash the CRS market (hopefully taking panda and KK prices down a few notches), rather than paying $4-500 per shrimp.
> 
> Here's my somewhat diabolical plan (feedback is welcome):
> 
> Buy a huge aquarium. I've had my eye on a local person's 350 gal Tenecor tank with stand for $3500. Then fill it with CRS (imported ones would prpbably be cheap if bought in a huge quantity). This might cost $2K for the CRS. Let the shrimp breed for a while until the tank is nearly bursting from being stuffed with CRS. Then give the CRS away for free. I figure in a tank that big, you could get thousands of baby shrimp per month. All those free CRS will collapse low to mid end of the market since nobody will be paying for regular CRS any more. Then hopefully the breeders with the King Kong, Pandas, and Blue Bolt shrimp would feel the need to lower their prices at a rate faster than normal.



LOL, very sinister indeed =) I second that plan!


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## timwag2001 (Jul 3, 2009)

put me first on the list of your free crs!

you could spend your 2 grand on some bkk's though


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## kifeter (Sep 1, 2010)

^ Yea and get a total of what? 2-4?


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## timwag2001 (Jul 3, 2009)

and how long would it take you to get a return on your investment?


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## connordude27 (Jun 14, 2008)

Aquarium Plus (jlo) actually went to Honk Kong to pick out his shrimp... He had one die then recently they had babies. They ARE NOT completely true breeding but some are King Kongs...


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

Yeah, even if you do breed those KK and Panda shrimp successfully, are you really going to find willing buyers even at the "low" price of $200 each?


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## timwag2001 (Jul 3, 2009)

absolutely. i know of at least 4 people that would buy them off of you right now


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## kifeter (Sep 1, 2010)

Well he was obviously joking. But in his joke he stated that he was going to give the CRS away for free, meaning he was not looking for a return on his investment. But it doesn't really matter, I don't think I would buy one of these at this price just because I would be scared if it croaked on me before giving me babies! lol


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## timwag2001 (Jul 3, 2009)

lol, i would try it but i would probably smash my aquarium if they died on me


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## jiang604 (Dec 28, 2009)

connordude27 said:


> Aquarium Plus (jlo) actually went to Honk Kong to pick out his shrimp... He had one die then recently they had babies. They ARE NOT completely true breeding but some are King Kongs...


does he know which generation of BKK he bought? HK was flooded with BKK and pandas about a year ago. This was because breeders in and many parts of the world had already got the stable form of BKK and before it was launched, people who had the weaker genes had sold them at a very low price. The difference in the weaker strain and the current strain is. The current strain are just as hardy as CRS and they have been culled of any other variants when being bred and left with Panda and BKK.


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## jiang604 (Dec 28, 2009)

timwag2001 said:


> lol, i would try it but i would probably smash my aquarium if they died on me


lol, i had a mishap about a year ago and killed a tank of about 30 or so BKK and panda. Stealth heaters suck... It overheated and fried my shrimp.


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## timwag2001 (Jul 3, 2009)

did you smash it? i've got an irish temper. i would have had water and glass everywhere


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## jiang604 (Dec 28, 2009)

timwag2001 said:


> did you smash it? i've got an irish temper. i would have had water and glass everywhere


i woulda, but i had a tank underneath didn't want to kill that colony too now would i :hihi:


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## Vesh (Jan 16, 2010)

connordude27 said:


> Aquarium Plus (jlo) actually went to Honk Kong to pick out his shrimp... He had one die then recently they had babies. They ARE NOT completely true breeding but some are King Kongs...


How do you fly them from Honk Kong? A friend of mine actually lives in Honk Kong, she visited States a month ago. They didn't let her take a bottle of water aboard. A bottle of water she bought inside a safe area in airport, she actually gave them a receipt and it didn't help.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Luggage, and jimmy imports fish and shrimp legally. It wouldn't be so hard to import them on the same plane as you. And yes, his are from last year. Or at least he bought them before what... april of this year? That was my first visit to his store, so I'm guessing he had them a while before that. He also said that his king kong was genetically engineered in a laboratory, so who knows.


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## jiang604 (Dec 28, 2009)

mordalphus said:


> Luggage, and jimmy imports fish and shrimp legally. It wouldn't be so hard to import them on the same plane as you. And yes, his are from last year. Or at least he bought them before what... april of this year? That was my first visit to his store, so I'm guessing he had them a while before that. He also said that his king kong was genetically engineered in a laboratory, so who knows.


lol genetically engineered nice choice of words he used =P but that would also further confirm that it was not the stable strain. I already sorta figured they would be cuz a short plane trip like that shouldn't result in any deaths.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

EKLiu said:


> Seems like it might be cheaper to crash the CRS market (hopefully taking panda and KK prices down a few notches), rather than paying $4-500 per shrimp.
> 
> Here's my somewhat diabolical plan (feedback is welcome):
> 
> Buy a huge aquarium. I've had my eye on a local person's 350 gal Tenecor tank with stand for $3500. Then fill it with CRS (imported ones would prpbably be cheap if bought in a huge quantity). This might cost $2K for the CRS. Let the shrimp breed for a while until the tank is nearly bursting from being stuffed with CRS. Then give the CRS away for free. I figure in a tank that big, you could get thousands of baby shrimp per month. All those free CRS will collapse low to mid end of the market since nobody will be paying for regular CRS any more. Then hopefully the breeders with the King Kong, Pandas, and Blue Bolt shrimp would feel the need to lower their prices at a rate faster than normal.


Lol, but why give them away for free? You could easily crash the market for SS-SSS by selling them for $2-10 a piece.

I think the Sulawesi market is more deserving of some entrepreneurial malfeasance. By the time they get to the US, the retail price goes up about 1000% before shipping.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

snausage said:


> Lol, but why give them away for free? You could easily crash the market for SS-SSS by selling them for $2-10 a piece.


I never thought about that. Selling them for money is a pretty good idea. I could then use the profits to pay for the KKs, Pandas, and Blue Bolts.


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

If you were selling SSS for 2-10, I would snatch up a TON of them. lol


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## Adi (Oct 14, 2011)

Hi Dears,

To breed the Taiwans successfully, you have to meet several conditions:

1. Water parameters:
* pH - 5,3 - 5,5,
* kH - 0~1,
* gH - 2 - 3. 
* NO3 - 0.
2. Filtering:
* If you have more that 1,5cm of sand in the aquarium, you have to use underground filter + sponge filter.
3. Water changes:
* 2 times per week, 30% + minerals (I know, sounds mysteriously ]

I have a 30 aquariums with the shrimps: with Taiwans, Crystal Red and Black (all grades), Red Sakura and Yellows. Below you can find pictures of my Taiwans:

http://www.fotosik.pl/pokaz_obrazek/a86f6af6e9d4d1f7.html





All pictures are mine, I do not agree to copy it and use it.


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## zxc (Nov 10, 2009)

Adi. what kind/type substrate you are using to bring PH that low?
Do you using CO2?


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

Those are beautiful shrimp!


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## Adi (Oct 14, 2011)

Substrate is not good... 

I using normal sand and osmosis water, which is filtered by torf...


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