# New cardinal tetras - hiding. Stress? Normal?



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Leave them alone, keep your hands out of the tank, and only go near the tank when feeding them. After a while they'll come to associate you with food and come running when they see you.

For now, just let them get accustomed to their new surroundings, new water, new food, etc.


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## hokuryu (Jan 6, 2009)

lauraleellbp said:


> Leave them alone, keep your hands out of the tank, and only go near the tank when feeding them. After a while they'll come to associate you with food and come running when they see you.
> 
> For now, just let them get accustomed to their new surroundings, new water, new food, etc.


OK, thanks, Laural. I am such a punctilious "tank worrier" that I wonder if I'm always overworking things, so for many reasons, much appreciated and advice taken.


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## zenfish (Jan 29, 2006)

lauraleellbp said:


> Leave them alone, keep your hands out of the tank, and only go near the tank when feeding them. After a while they'll come to associate you with food and come running when they see you.
> 
> For now, just let them get accustomed to their new surroundings, new water, new food, etc.



+1 agreed


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## prototyp3 (Dec 5, 2007)

Cardinals love to huddle and hover in the plants early on. They will come out when they're comfortable with the surroundings and they will definitely appreciate the nice flow you have.


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

I bought 7 cardinals a few months ago. The fist two days they all hid and would not eat, and then they showed ich. I wasn't very knowledgeable about fish and diseases as the time, so it was another day before I recognized it. Treated with 1/2 Quick Cure for 10 days. I think all but 3 died during this period, and they continued to hide and not eat. Over the next week two more died. At that point the lone survivor became a maverick. He started always swimming in the open, pecking at the algae wafers sitting under the mouth of a 3" BN (while two large mollies hovered cautiously a couple inches away), and darting at food on the surface. At first I cursed that I ever bough cardinals. Now I'm thinking of taking another shot, this time with a QT tank and closer observation.

BTW, I had a similar experience with Indian Glassfish. I bought 3. While in the QT tank they never came out. After two weeks, one of them went spastic when I cleaned the tank, and got a bad head injury. He died about a week later. The 2nd died after about a month of just never adjusting. At that time the 3rd started to swim about in the open as if nothing was wrong. Now he hangs out right at the front of the tank, not really afraid of anything.


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## hokuryu (Jan 6, 2009)

Lost another cardinal at this morning's partial change. It does seem the fish, generally, are more up and active than they were, so I'm hopeful, if not too hopeful. 

I realized another noob error might have contributed to this loss, as well as the loss of at least one amano - overfeeding generally, and feeding the wrong foods in too much concentration. I have Aqueon "color enhancing flakes," Spectrum "small fish" pellets, frozen brine, frozen blood worms, Wardley algae wafers, veggies; thinking the flakes were moving on to the old side after about a month, I was daily feeding in 3x, with the flakes, worms, brine, etc., more tilting away from the flakes, as they are coming up on 2 months old and I believed they may have lost much of their efficacy in terms of nutritious value. So, the tank got a lot of frozen, meaty foods, in percentage terms.

After hearing from Homer_Simpson, and thinking on it, I think I've simply been way overfeeding, even though the fish ate everything up within minutes. Pulling back in general, and ensuring I have my staples and supplementary regimen in order, and hopeful this, too, will help.


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## hokuryu (Jan 6, 2009)

Need to add, no, they're not doing better. While the White Clouds are again out and about, 2 more cardinals are listless by the intake valve, and will die. That's 4 in 24 hours, and counting. This is really sad, and I don't know what else to do.

I made mention of this somewhere among my posts. But in addition to EI, I use Excel at 2 ml/20 gallons daily, and that is with CO2. I know of it's additional carbon and algaecide benefits, but anyone have any thoughts as to whether it's possibly just a bad idea altogether with amanos and these cardinals in the tank? 

I ask, because before adding in injected CO2 (or amanos), I was using the Excel at a high overdose rate, though I've returned to a normal dosing for a few weeks now, since adding CO2. To date, I've not had much of an issue with algae, save some mild to moderate brown diatom that is now on the decline, but if some have some experience that in fact the Excel is possibly hurting my amanos and/or cardinals, I'd prefer to rely on CO2, maintenance, and my otos, BN and amanos for algae control.


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## rmc (Dec 6, 2005)

What are your water parameters and temp?


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

Cardinals can be very finicky when first added to your tank. If the place you bought them from has a return policy, give them back the bodies, and buy fish somewhere else. If your tank params are in order, you just bought some bad stock. 

Also, you are definitely overfeeding. If I read you correctly, you said you fed these fish 3 times already in one day? When I add new fish in my tanks, I don't feed them for 1-2 days. You should probably scale back your feeding to once a day, flakes or frozen for the swimmers, and one feeding of algae wafers for the algae eaters.

Finally, depending on tank size, 9 cardinals may not be enough for them to feel secure enough to come out into the middle of the tank. If these fish have an option to hide in dense plantings, or swim against a strong current, I find that my cardinals choose the plants more often than not. Also, increasing school size certainly helps their visibility. I had 12 cardinals in my 29 gallon tank, and I hadn't seen much of them in months (literally, I don't know what they were eating). I added 12 neon tetras to the tank, and instantly the cardinals all came out of hiding, and they all school around the tank together now.


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## hokuryu (Jan 6, 2009)

rmc said:


> What are your water parameters and temp?


Water temp is 75. pH = 6.9=7.0. NH=0, NO2=0, No3=10 ppm (yesterday, which was the last day prior to water change on an EI regime). 55 plants in the 20H.

One thing I just did was to redirect the koralia towards the surface, so that it is in cross-current to the Fluval 205 outflow. There is now a tremendous amount of surface ripple, and as I have injected CO2, I don't mind the lost gas. 

I'm wondering if these guys went from a higher O2 ppm tank to a lower PPM tank, and this is at least one major issue?


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

hokuryu said:


> I'm wondering if these guys went from a higher O2 ppm tank to a lower PPM tank, and this is at least one major issue?


Are they showing signs of struggling for air? If not, then I'd still say you got bad stock.


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## zenfish (Jan 29, 2006)

Sorry to hear about your cardinal troubles,but with some "delicate" fish..Less is More.

So,when you changed your water,thats stress.I would of left it alone until they acclimated for a few weeks.Or if it was something that NEEDED done,you should of did it beofre you put them in..

And dont stress too much..Cradinals just "CRAP" out sometimes..It is the nature of cardinals to be looked at too hard,or a fishkeeper to be excited about getting them,and they GET the heart attacks..But seriously,just save the bodies in the fridge in a bag and take em back if you can..


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## rmc (Dec 6, 2005)

I was looking more for your gh and kh since you can alter the ph too easily with co2. 75 degrees is a bit on the cool side for cardinals. They'll do better at 80 degrees or higher and could be acclimated to the lower temps after they are stable.

I'm leaning towards the food issue as being the most logical cause of the stress and dying. Keep in mind for future use that shippers do not feed their fish and a sudden gut load can be deadly to even the most hardy of species. I usually wait 24 hrs before feeding new fish and then I usually refrain from any foods that are rich in animal protein. My favorite starting food for cardinals is spirulina and a granular food I mix myself. Once they are out'n about I will treat them with freshly hatched bbs.

I don't think the O2 is a problem for you. Cards don't really need much suface agitation.


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## hokuryu (Jan 6, 2009)

eyebeatbadgers said:


> Are they showing signs of struggling for air? If not, then I'd still say you got bad stock.


None, except the ones near dead, until they die. I just think I'd like to give better air to the tank - informed in part by discussions I've seen with Hoppy, Tom Barr and others, on this site and the Barr Report, on surface ripple, and I don't mind having to increase the CO2 rate to ensure adequate carbonation.



eyebeatbadgers said:


> Cardinals can be very finicky when first added to your tank. If the place you bought them from has a return policy, give them back the bodies, and buy fish somewhere else. If your tank params are in order, you just bought some bad stock.
> 
> Also, you are definitely overfeeding. If I read you correctly, you said you fed these fish 3 times already in one day? When I add new fish in my tanks, I don't feed them for 1-2 days. You should probably scale back your feeding to once a day, flakes or frozen for the swimmers, and one feeding of algae wafers for the algae eaters.


Yes, I completely blew this one. I don't know what I was thinking, except that the tank was fully cycled, and I'd had white clouds from the beginning - so I forgot I've added new critters, and I needed to go back to a lean feed regime. Dumb mistake. Also likely a dumb mistake as a general way of moving forward - trying to feed small bits 3x per day, but I'm almost positive I was overfeeding, and overfeeding the wrong things - too much brine and bloodworm. I regret this all very much. 

Anyway, I may just go with Homer_Simpson's advice going forward, and only feed flakes 1x on feed days, morning, every 2-3 days, with a weekly treat, 1x, of blood worm or something like it. For my bottom feeders, I plan to continue with zucchini, etc., 2x weekly.


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## hokuryu (Jan 6, 2009)

zenfish said:


> Sorry to hear about your cardinal troubles,but with some "delicate" fish..Less is More.
> 
> So,when you changed your water,thats stress.I would of left it alone until they acclimated for a few weeks.Or if it was something that NEEDED done,you should of did it beofre you put them in..
> 
> And dont stress too much..Cradinals just "CRAP" out sometimes..It is the nature of cardinals to be looked at too hard,or a fishkeeper to be excited about getting them,and they GET the heart attacks..But seriously,just save the bodies in the fridge in a bag and take em back if you can..


Thanks. I am trying to do the best I can, given my lack of experience. The reason I change the water is because I'm on EI, and without a change, I'm afraid I'd screw everything else up. So, I plan on doing smaller changes 3x weekly, per above, and hope for the best.



rmc said:


> I was looking more for your gh and kh since you can alter the ph too easily with co2. 75 degrees is a bit on the cool side for cardinals. They'll do better at 80 degrees or higher and could be acclimated to the lower temps after they are stable.
> 
> I'm leaning towards the food issue as being the most logical cause of the stress and dying. Keep in mind for future use that shippers do not feed their fish and a sudden gut load can be deadly to even the most hardy of species. I usually wait 24 hrs before feeding new fish and then I usually refrain from any foods that are rich in animal protein. My favorite starting food for cardinals is spirulina and a granular food I mix myself. Once they are out'n about I will treat them with freshly hatched bbs.
> 
> I don't think the O2 is a problem for you. Cards don't really need much suface agitation.


Chicago tap is moderately hard, and buffering capacity, accordingly. 

Because of the existing white clouds, preferring cooler temps, I was trying to find a middle ground - likely, another mistake, since my suspicion is that the white clouds can handle higher temps (and stressors generally) more than the cardinals can handle cooler temps. Anyway, I've incrementally been increasing the heater, and intend on doing it over several days. Again, I hope I'm doing the best that can be done.



eyebeatbadgers said:


> Finally, depending on tank size, 9 cardinals may not be enough for them to feel secure enough to come out into the middle of the tank. If these fish have an option to hide in dense plantings, or swim against a strong current, I find that my cardinals choose the plants more often than not. Also, increasing school size certainly helps their visibility. I had 12 cardinals in my 29 gallon tank, and I hadn't seen much of them in months (literally, I don't know what they were eating). I added 12 neon tetras to the tank, and instantly the cardinals all came out of hiding, and they all school around the tank together now.


Yes, I had hoped to build a larger school of cardinals, but was concerned about adding in too many at once. 

I gave 6 large zebra danios to a new home; I had hoped to try to match the bioload by adding in 9 cardinals, close to the same time. I have a 20H, with (now) 6 cardinals, 9 white clouds, 1 BN, 3 otos, several amanos and a couple RCS. If I were to try again, with 6 additional cardinals added today, would this be advisable, or am I better off letting everything - food waste, etc. - cool down for several days, then try again? 

I also want to more lightly stock the tank than I had previously, anyway. Any thoughts on whether a stock of 12 cardinals, and the other existing fish, would be considered "heavy" in a heavily planted tank?


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## zenfish (Jan 29, 2006)

Well,adjust your dosing as needed..One of the benefits of having planted tanks is that you DONT have to do water changes as much..The plants help keep the water column free of nitrates,phosphates..And the macro's help the plant accomplish this as well as needing the macros to survive.

When you change the water 3 X a week??that is sort of going against the whole reason of having a planted tank.Besides the look.I want to LOOK at my tank,not WORK in it..


Adjust your dosing a bit..You wont all of a sudden see BBA taking over..but if you like to look at your tank,you will see things going on that maybe shouldnt,or be suprised and find out that everything is moving along smoothly..

EI is not a bad way to go..but this is where a water test kit comes in handy to let you know how you are doing as far as dosing....Unless you enjoy changing water,adjust your dosing a bit,and let it be for a bit..STOP wasting ferts by doing water changes..Think about it..You add them,then so you make sure you dont have too much,you change the water..Too much work...

Zen


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

hokuryu said:


> If I were to try again, with 6 additional cardinals added today, would this be advisable, or am I better off letting everything - food waste, etc. - cool down for several days, then try again?
> 
> I also want to more lightly stock the tank than I had previously, anyway. Any thoughts on whether a stock of 12 cardinals, and the other existing fish, would be considered "heavy" in a heavily planted tank?


I didn't realize this was a 20 gallon tank. You're probably good on stocking level as is. I wouldn't add any more fish until things settle down for a few weeks. Then you can consider adding more cardinals, or replacing other fish you already have with more cardinals if you're so inclined. In a few weeks time, you'll be able to judge if things look too busy inside the tank or not (assuming you still have some cardinals alive  )


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## hokuryu (Jan 6, 2009)

eyebeatbadgers said:


> I didn't realize this was a 20 gallon tank. You're probably good on stocking level as is. I wouldn't add any more fish until things settle down for a few weeks. Then you can consider adding more cardinals, or replacing other fish you already have with more cardinals if you're so inclined. In a few weeks time, you'll be able to judge if things look too busy inside the tank or not (assuming you still have some cardinals alive  )


OK, thanks. I would like to say one member has done a very kind thing (keeping him anonymous, in the event he would prefer it that way, but really - a very kind person, and I'd like to publically acknowledge him) and is sending me a few from his stock. I hope that with incremental adaptive changes - temp is now 77, from 75, going to very lean feeding for the next few weeks, etc. - I will do better in the weeks ahead. 

On the temp thing - RMC, others - I'd like to bring the temp slowly up to 80, but then I'm afraid I will move the white clouds out of their range to handle things. I know they're hardy, but any one with experience or thoughts to maintaining this higher temp over time, for white cloud health?


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## zenfish (Jan 29, 2006)

77 is fine for really,just about everything,if not everything..except maybe goldfish..


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I keep my Cardinals around 80F. IME warmer temps are better than cooler temps, they're much less prone to develop fungus or ich.

Your tank is pretty heavily stocked for a 20gal- especially with the BN pleco. Personally, I wouldn't add any more fish until your current population stabilizes. If it turns out that this is actually a parasite or disease that's running through your current Cardinals, all you'll be doing is exposing new fish to the disease.

I always QT Cardinals for a minimum of 4 weeks before adding them to my tanks. My last batch I QT'd for 6 weeks.


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## hokuryu (Jan 6, 2009)

lauraleellbp said:


> I keep my Cardinals around 80F. IME warmer temps are better than cooler temps, they're much less prone to develop fungus or ich.
> 
> Your tank is pretty heavily stocked for a 20gal- especially with the BN pleco. Personally, I wouldn't add any more fish until your current population stabilizes. If it turns out that this is actually a parasite or disease that's running through your current Cardinals, all you'll be doing is exposing new fish to the disease.
> 
> I always QT Cardinals for a minimum of 4 weeks before adding them to my tanks. My last batch I QT'd for 6 weeks.


Thanks, Laura. I am cautiously optimistic that things are moving in the right direction after today's mini-change - all white clouds are back to being quite active, BN is chowing like a fiend, as are the otos, I've seen some awol amanos return to say hello, and the 5 remaining cardinals have moved from their back corner location to (timidly) begin to explore the back area, and pecking, presumably for some grazing. Just feels like it's a better environment. 

I also hear you on the stocking - I've made a good many mistakes during this startup/learning curve, lessons learned for the next tank. I'd feel much better with a very light load of fish here, more on the order of 1/2" per 12" surface area, than 1"/12 s.i., for their sake - but at the same time, I have some concerns that cardinals, or any schooling species, in too few numbers, on a permanent basis, will make them feel less than secure. I love the white clouds, as well, so don't really have a plan yet as to what to do. Can you (or others) advise if, say, 5 of each species would be a relatively humane solution, or if one of the species is known to be more skittish than the other in fewer numbers?

Finally, as I mention above, in trying to raise the temp slowly per RMC's and your suggestion, I have some concerns about harming the white clouds - can you or others advise that if this is done slowly (say, 1 deg./48 hours), the white clouds can comfortably adjust and exist?


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## hokuryu (Jan 6, 2009)

Well, I thought I was doing well, since doing a partial water change and otherwise leaving the tank entirely alone - and just now I lost another one. I had some concerns about Excel overdosing on water change days, and was literally on the phone with Seachem tech support when one of the cardinals darted across the front of the tank belly up, struggling. By the time I got off the phone with her, a couple of minutes later, the fish was dead on the bottom. That's 5 out of 9 lost.

I've had it. I want to be able to keep these fish, as they're so beautiful, to me, but to kill them like this is horrible. With water parameters good and other things otherwise clean, the only thing I can think of to do in the future is either find a better way to acclimate them to my tank parameters, or change my tank to fit a species I want to center around. 

Of these two, the former is a more viable option, at least to me. I don't have the ability to deal with RO and ion additions, and besides this, with my Mopani in the tank, pH is 6.8, dGH is somewhere around 6.7 - not velvet soft, but not extraordinarily hard, either.

So, I want to find a way to better acclimate them. 

One is to ensure I'm doing the acclimation properly. When I brought these cards home, I placed the bag in the tank, and every 15 minutes or so, I took out 1/4 cup of the LFS water and added in 1/4 cup of my tank water. I did this for about 1 1/2 hours. I've seen people describe doing drip acclimation for literally hours. My concern was if I do it in my tank, below my light, they'd heat up, after too long a period. My concern is, if in a bucket, without aeration and filtration, they'd asphyxiate/etc. after a short period. Can anyone provide some methods they've used to acclimate sensitive species more properly?

The other, is that I'm sold on a quarantine tank, particularly after reading more of Laura's regime. I don't know how to set the tank up. If I set it up as a "working" tank, with cycled substrate, etc., then how to acclimate a newly introduced fish to _this_ tank? If it is truly a bare-bones system - no substrate, just a HOB filter, heater, daily water changes - again, how to sustain and acclimate fish like these, particularly when it is deep plant and cave cover that seems to give them at least some succor? Finally, I have a small 2.5 gallon acrylic tank that I use for top off water. It has my 20H's original Whisper HOB on it, and a small-wattage submersible heater. For the period of a quarantine - say, up to 6 weeks for Laura's cardinals - is an under-sized QT tank not itself a stressor, and a problem?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

I still don't think you're addressing the problem of buying bad stock. How long had the fish been in the store before you bought them? 

Any store worth it's weight will quarantine the new arrivals a couple of days at least before they are sold, and should have some kind of return policy. If your store won't hold the fish until you buy them, or give you full return credit, buy elsewhere. 

Also, when adding new fish, skip the Excel for a few days, until things settle in. It sounds like you dose quite a bit when doing water changes, so that could be a source of extra stress.


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## hokuryu (Jan 6, 2009)

eyebeatbadgers said:


> I still don't think you're addressing the problem of buying bad stock. How long had the fish been in the store before you bought them?
> 
> Any store worth it's weight will quarantine the new arrivals a couple of days at least before they are sold, and should have some kind of return policy. If your store won't hold the fish until you buy them, or give you full return credit, buy elsewhere.
> 
> Also, when adding new fish, skip the Excel for a few days, until things settle in. It sounds like you dose quite a bit when doing water changes, so that could be a source of extra stress.


Sorry, I didn't mention, eyebeat, this stock has been in their tanks for 5 weeks. And they will honor all the lost fish, no questions. I've watched them for awhile, and believe they're doing a good job. The issue, I'm fairly certain, is a host of things I've done.

On Excel, yep, thanks - interestingly, just had a conversation with RMC, who does the same thing (thanks go to RMC, for his generosity, in so many ways).


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

What temperature does the store keep the fish at? If possible, I'd try to get as close to their temperature as possible. That, along with slow acclimation, no water changes for a week+, no excel for at least 3-5 days, you should be in good shape the next go-round. I know cardinals can be a pain at first, but once you get a school happy in your tank, you'll be very happy with the results.


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## hokuryu (Jan 6, 2009)

eyebeatbadgers said:


> What temperature does the store keep the fish at? If possible, I'd try to get as close to their temperature as possible. That, along with slow acclimation, no water changes for a week+, no excel for at least 3-5 days, you should be in good shape the next go-round. I know cardinals can be a pain at first, but once you get a school happy in your tank, you'll be very happy with the results.


They keep the cards at 80, which I'm bringing my tank up to slowly (78 now). 

Thanks - better days ahead, I hope.


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## hokuryu (Jan 6, 2009)

ARGGGHHHH! Spoke too soon. I haven't been able to find 1 of the 4 left, and thought the worst. I broke down the filter to clean it out, and with the water still, found another dead, rotting cardinal glued to the back glass, beneath a small mopani promontory. Great. Interestingly, the moment I shut down the filtration, the 3 cards came out, and the moment I turned everything back on, the scurried back to the back cover. Are they that freaked out by flow? Nothing in the tank is getting beat up, just a good circulation everywhere....

Additionally, of the 3 left, one has what looks like an almost broken back - tumor, or infection, right? Seems all of these have to go in a QT tank, immediately - correct?

Edit: I have killed the Koralia 1, for now - my brief experience above was telling, perhaps. If they come out during this interim (they have, though they quickly retreat to the cave and cover), I know that at least one stressor - the Koralia - is one variable. Perhaps the 1 is too much for this tank, and it's enough to freak them out - anyone with a 20H, cards and the K-nano?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'm not sure that you're looking in the right places still for the source of your issues.

If your water parameters are still reading 0ppm ammonia and nitrites (have you checked again, BTW?) I suspect, given how quickly all your Cardinals have died since you got them, that your issues are the result of not getting good stock in the first place.

Check your water parameters, check the water parameters of your tap water again, and otherwise- keep your hands out of the tank.


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## hokuryu (Jan 6, 2009)

lauraleellbp said:


> I'm not sure that you're looking in the right places still for the source of your issues.
> 
> If your water parameters are still reading 0ppm ammonia and nitrites (have you checked again, BTW?) I suspect, given how quickly all your Cardinals have died since you got them, that your issues are the result of not getting good stock in the first place.
> 
> Check your water parameters, check the water parameters of your tap water again, and otherwise- keep your hands out of the tank.


Hi Laura - 

Yep, I checked the parameters again, and the LFS that sold me the stock also checked - I got 0, 0, 10, she just said "you're water's great." 

What's troubling me is that the LFS indicates they've kept the cardinals for over a month, and they get them after having them quarantined and slow-acclimated to Chicago-esque water parameters...i.e., even though the LFS maintains RO, they add in salts to bring dGH close to 7, which is basically Chicago hardness. 

I'm wondering a few things, now. Unfortunately, as all the variables are at play, I can't tease out which thing may be causative, and which not. Perhaps you experienced folks can chime in:

1. Overfeeding - and wrong foods. One member here who has been really generous of his time and stock eschews adult brine altogether, pegging it to causing regular bloat in his stock. He's not a fan, either, of bloodworm, really. And I was mixing both in with Aqueon "color enhancing" flakes, in an attempt at 3 micro feedings daily. I blew it, I'm pretty certain. I've since moved to every other, or every 3rd day, with a good staple, once per day, and a "treat" composed of either my own DIY food, or spirulina/spirulina combo food, once weekly (along with veggies for the bottom feeders, once per week, and Hikari algae wafers, twice per week).

2. I'm not sure these fish were that shocked by water chemistry parameters, since it seems my water is close to what they've been living in for quite a while. I am pretty sure they were temperature shocked, being stocked in my tank which was then at 75. Even though I acclimated them over 1 1/2 hours, per the information given by others, I believe I may have lowered the immunity of these fish generally.

3. Turbulence. I honestly think my Koralia 1 scared the living daylights out of these fish, when they were stressed already. It should have been key to me when the white clouds also disappeared for most of the last day or day and a half, hiding with the cardinals in a back corner forest of L. aromatica. I removed the K1, and all fish definitively livened up - all species, the BN pleco, otos, shrimp, white clouds, even the cardinals, which for the first time, spent some time combing along the front glass. I am going to switch to a Koralia nano, as I definitely have dead areas with just my Fluval 205, and hope this gives decent flow, without stressing anyone.

4. Excel, possibly, on the "overdose" startup recommendation for water change days. At 10 ml/20 gallons, I am just suspicious, without having any definitive data to prove it one way or the other. I discussed this with Seachem tech folks, but the discussion and conclusions drawn were not conclusive, at least for me.


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## hokuryu (Jan 6, 2009)

Day 3 without further deaths. 

However, one of the tetras is very pale, colors washed out, bent back (though he always has had a bent back)...I don't see signs of ick, but wondering if I need to get this fish out (and euthanize the little guy), as he presents a hazard for the others? Or leave him be, to try to recover?


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## hokuryu (Jan 6, 2009)

Strangest thing - now a brightly colored, seemingly healthy cardinal keeps pushing up against this pale cardinal. Is this a kind of herd culling, what you see sometimes in the wild, healthy clan members trying to kill off a weak link among them?

Secondly, and I think I know the answer, should this fish be gotten rid of? 

If any experienced card keepers could chime in, I'd appreciate it.


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## hokuryu (Jan 6, 2009)

This is an old thread, but hopefully, my experience might be helpful to others. 

I have had no further die-offs since posting above - including the above-mentioned "weak" cardinal, who has rebounded and is in robust health. Prior to RMC's cards (see below), I acquired more cardinals to bring my population to 7, and these have all lasted and thrived. 

Changes made: 

I increased the temp to 80F, about 1F per day. 

Interestingly, in terms of acclimatizing the fish, I think it may be that I originally did it poorly, and _too long._ The guy at my LFS said that for all their fish, none get more than 40 minutes time acclimatizing. 

He suggested this method: 15 minutes temp acclimation, floating bag; open the bag, remove all but 2" or so of water; every minute or two, drop (do not "drip," but "drop," so there is a goodly amount of O2 introduced into the bag) about 1/4 cup tank water. He said to do this no more than 35-40 minutes, his reasoning being that the moment the bag opens, they are on borrowed time until they get into the tank environment. Then, pass the fish into a net, and into the water. He also said to watch for signs of O2 stress, and if so, get them in the water, regardless of how long they've been acclimatizing.

I chose to drop 1/8 cup or so of water every minute for 40 minutes, then into a net, then into the tank. No deaths. I don't know (because the originally lower temp alone introduces another variable into the equation), but I did wonder if the standard drip acclimation method, while it does slowly introduce fish to water parameters, also may stress them, because of the reasoning above. I can say that at least in this instance, my experience quite possibly bears this out.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to publically thank RMC for his help and generosity - I hope he's OK with this - I'd like to thank him for sending me stock out of the blue, of his own kind volition. These latest join their mates, and since their joining, I have a tightly schooled mass of seemingly happy cardinals swimming freely throughout the tank.


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## ColeMan (Mar 9, 2008)

I think the drip acclimation method is solid. I've acclimated fish for over 60 minutes before with no problems, but haven't gone for multiple hours on end. Typically I'll drip a drop of Prime into the acclimation vessel, set up the apparatus and just let it drip away; the drip, coming from 10" above the vessel, provides a little gas exchange (though not much) - but I've never really worried about O2 deprivation during acclimation. I can't see how an extended acclimation (assuming basic parameters - temp, O2, etc - were kept in check and we're not talking about 12 hours in a tupperware or something) would hurt a fish, but I haven't thought about it that hard either.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I think that adding the Prime does make a big difference during drip acclimation. Otherwise, the pH of the bag water can shift dramatically, starting a chemical chain reaction that will end up burning all the fish due to the ammonia buildup in the bag.

The Prime helps keep the ammonia in a safe form long enough to acclimate the fish to the other water parameters in the new tank.


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## imdanny (Feb 23, 2009)

I've never had any problems with any of my fish dying. i would just net them out the bag and place them in the tank and they would do fine. idk if im lucky or what but i've never lost a fish.


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## hokuryu (Jan 6, 2009)

lauraleellbp said:


> I think that adding the Prime does make a big difference during drip acclimation. Otherwise, the pH of the bag water can shift dramatically, starting a chemical chain reaction that will end up burning all the fish due to the ammonia buildup in the bag.
> 
> The Prime helps keep the ammonia in a safe form long enough to acclimate the fish to the other water parameters in the new tank.


I only now came to realize the chemistry involved - with the bag closed, and dissolved CO2 in the water, the carbonic acid in the water will tend to keep free, toxic ammonia (NH3) in check, but once CO2 leaves solution and the pH rises, the proportion of NH3 to NH4+ rises, frying the fish.

It seems to me it's a judgment call - a long drip with Prime to detox the ammonia, or getting them out of the bag and free-swimming in clean water, both seem to have their benefits and drawbacks - time in bag, and differences between the home and host water parameters must come into play, i.e., a trip from the LFS for 20 minutes is a far cry from fish housed in a bag during a long mailing or transportation period, or fish housed in water with radically different water parameters will need a different acclimatization than those coming from similar environments.

I like the Prime idea and hadn't even thought of it. 

A couple things, though: I know that Prime detoxes free, gas ammonia, but I don't think it mitigates against pH shifts, does it? In other words, though the Prime will detox the NH3 as its proportion rises in a transfer bag undergoing CO2 volatilization, but it won't deal with the shift in pH - correct? 

Secondly, Prime is an O2 reducing agent, so if the fish are in an O2-low environment to begin with, introducing Prime may itself bring on issues, unless the fish are provided with adequate, fresh O2 levels, seems to me.


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