# I need help with Green Spot Algae



## kidgrave (Feb 4, 2014)

My 10 gallon tank didn't start getting algae, until I started dosing PPS Pro. I'm not sure if it's the dosing that I did that caused the algae or some other reason. Let me also mention that as my substrate I have one inch of soil, and one inch of gravel. 

My fixture gives about 43-45 par at the substrate, and I have my lights on for 7 hours a day. I have dosed more than the recommended excel, and I still see some little spots of algae in my glass. In my plants, you can barely see it, but the algae looks like a small little thread with little tentacle. I'll try to post some pictures later when my lights turn on.

What I'm dealing with seems like green spot algae. Since I am regulating my lights, and am dosing extra co2. What do you think the problem might be with my tank getting a little algae?

Here are my water parameters:

Ph: 7.6
Kh: 10
Gh: 16
Temperature: 82 degrees.


----------



## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

My first thoughts are 

Enough plants?
Enough light?


----------



## kidgrave (Feb 4, 2014)

Okedokey said:


> My first thoughts are
> 
> Enough plants?
> Enough light?


My tank is very very heavily planted. My lights do provide enough light in my tank, as I run them for 7 hours a day. I have a 20 "Finnex Fugeray Planted + on my tank, which gives around 40-45 par at the substrate, meaning that my tank could be considered high light. 

I just can't pin point what's going on. Do you know if a lot of phosphates in the planted tank could be an issue?


----------



## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

I still think 7 hours is insufficient. I would bump it up to 10. Low/insufficient light can also cause algae.


----------



## kidgrave (Feb 4, 2014)

Okedokey said:


> I still think 7 hours is insufficient. I would bump it up to 10. Low/insufficient light can also cause algae.


Thank you for your advise. I will try this. I have been wanting to own a metal halide fixture. Which MH fixture do you own, and how much par does it give you?


----------



## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

kidgrave said:


> Thank you for your advise. I will try this. I have been wanting to own a metal halide fixture. Which MH fixture do you own, and how much par does it give you?


Firstly mate, im fairly new to this so get other opinions. Most would probably not agree to use a MH, however I use it for 2 or 3 hours a day. I have a LED light come on in the front of the tank at 11:30 am, then 30 minutes later the 4 x T5HO come on. Then at 1 pm - 2 pm the MH comes on for a burst. The T5HO then turn off 30 minutes later and the LED off (to semi-darkess) 30 minutes after that (3pm). At 5pm they turn on in the same sequence and shutdown in the same sequence by 9:30pm giving around 9-10hrs photo period, and on when im home.

The MH was a chinese one from eb*ay.. I got it for $10, but it normally retails for just over 100. Its a 150W double ended MH.


----------



## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

How much phosphate? GSA usually means low PO4.


----------



## kidgrave (Feb 4, 2014)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> How much phosphate? GSA usually means low PO4.


I don't know how much phosphates there is on my fish tank. Which test kit would you advise me to get to test for phosphates? In planted tanks, what phosphate levels are usually acceptable? I have a good amount of light and a lot of plants, so it could be that my fish tank is lacking phosphates. I did start dosing PPS Pro to make sure that I have enough phosphates. Since plants consume NPK in large quantities, do plants tend to absorb phosphates as fast as nitrates?

Bump:


Okedokey said:


> Firstly mate, im fairly new to this so get other opinions. Most would probably not agree to use a MH, however I use it for 2 or 3 hours a day. I have a LED light come on in the front of the tank at 11:30 am, then 30 minutes later the 4 x T5HO come on. Then at 1 pm - 2 pm the MH comes on for a burst. The T5HO then turn off 30 minutes later and the LED off (to semi-darkess) 30 minutes after that (3pm). At 5pm they turn on in the same sequence and shutdown in the same sequence by 9:30pm giving around 9-10hrs photo period, and on when im home.
> 
> The MH was a chinese one from eb*ay.. I got it for $10, but it normally retails for just over 100. Its a 150W double ended MH.


Wow, you got a good price. Would you mind linking me to that fixture? I think MH is a good fixture for tanks that are 24 inches deep. By the way, my fiance lives in Australia, but I live in USA. What good LED fixtures do you guys have in Australia for planted tanks? Thank you for answering my questions. 

What made you decide to use a MH fixture?


----------



## kidgrave (Feb 4, 2014)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> How much phosphate? GSA usually means low PO4.


At the moment I don't have a way of testing for Phosphates. I noticed that some of the tips of my Java Fern are dark green, and some of my ludwigia repens leaves are turning dark green. Is this a phosphate deficiency? I dose PPS Pro. Normally I dose 1lm a day, but today I dosed 3ml to make sure I have sufficient Phosphates.

I have a question. Nutrient deficiencies is what causes algae, right? I hope I am not asking a dumb question. If one nutrient is missing, then the rest of the plant pretty much starts growing, and then algae takes over? I always thought that excess nutrients is what causes algae.


----------



## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

Phosphate limitation is a very common cause of GSA. However, it's not the only one. CO2 limitation will also cause this alga.

Think about what has happened. You had no GSA prior to adding nutrients. Most people would assume the nutrients caused the algae. This is one reason many still perpetuate the myth that excess nutrients cause algae. It doesn’t.

When you started dosing you essentially increased the demand for everything else. So now your plants are up taking more nutrients and CO2. So there could be a CO2 limitation causing the GSA as well as a PO4 limitation oddly enough. The PPS method uses a pretty small amount of PO4 in relation to other nutrients. So despite the extra nutrients your plants could still be PO4 limited as a result of the increased metabolism.

I would personally use a two pronged approach. Increase CO2 if you inject it or add Excel. If you have excess surface agitation redirect you filter flows to reduce it. Increase the ratio of PO4 in your nutrient mix. My gut feeling is that the algae is appearing from a CO2 limitation but increasing PO4 certainly won’t hurt.


----------



## kidgrave (Feb 4, 2014)

Zorfox said:


> Phosphate limitation is a very common cause of GSA. However, it's not the only one. CO2 limitation will also cause this alga.
> 
> Think about what has happened. You had no GSA prior to adding nutrients. Most people would assume the nutrients caused the algae. This is one reason many still perpetuate the myth that excess nutrients cause algae. It doesn’t.
> 
> ...



Why is it that dosing more nutrients would increase the demand of everything else? I thought that increasing the light levels (par) and photoperiod is what increases the demands of plants.

I was worried about the possibility of my co2 being limited. I dose 2ml of API co2 booster. 

Since I am dosing PPS Pro, would you advise to dose 2-3 ml of macros per day? Or, would you advise that I dose KH2PO4 individually?

I have a dirted tank, and I find it strange to be dealing with this nutrient deficiency. I think I am going to start dosing the Estimative Index method.


----------



## NJAquaBarren (Sep 16, 2009)

Light is the throttle that influences overall demand. However any parameter can be 100% utilized and it will then be one the limiting parameter and growth stops or slows and therefore other nutrients aren't utilized anymore than they already are. 

Increase the supply if that limiting parameter and demand for all will increase again. That may expose a deficiency in a different parameter. Co2, being the toughest to supply is usually the mother of limiting factors.


----------



## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

Sorry. The term everything is confusing. You're correct that light drives the process. However, eliminating a limitation increases the uptake of other resources.

Let me explain with a picture. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer so things make more sense to me when I can visualize them.

Look at the barrel below. Each of those slats represents a specific nutrient. The top of the barrel is the maximum the plant can use, anymore will not be used.

Let's assume your tank was previously potassium limited represented by the lowest slat in the image. Your plants can only utilize the other nutrients up to that point; hence the term nutrient limitation. If you start dosing potassium the next limitation will be the lowest slat above that. So now rather than potassium being the limiting factor phosphate could be (or any other that’s in the least supply). 












This is what I meant by saying the demand will increase when you eliminate the limitation. The premise of EI is to supply nutrients above the barrel. This means nutrients will never be a limiting factor. Instead, the limitation will be light or CO2. If you add CO2 to that barrel you can easily see why many tanks can become CO2 limited when dosing EI.

PPS seems to be low as far as phosphate dosing which is why I suggested you could be PO4 limited leading to the GSA. Increasing the overall dose could overcome this. PPS has worked for many hobbyists and I don’t mean to imply it’s a bad method. I prefer EI because it makes the most logical sense to me. Simply eliminate nutrient limitations so we can direct efforts to more important aspects of the hobby. It just seems the logical approach in my opinion. 

As far as increasing the Excel dose, I wouldn’t go over twice the recommended dose. I see little reason to dose more than this.


----------



## JoeRoun (Dec 21, 2009)

*What Zorfox Said Plus A little*

Everything Zorfox said.

One fix is to do a large water change at least 50%, but I tend toward 80%. Before and/or during the water removal scrape all the algae you can, remove any excess mulm; dead damaged anything you can.

While the water is being or has been removed scrape and brush everything, 



 toothbrushes are great for this, don’t let significant others catch you using theirs, 


 actually I like new cheap toothbrushes, a hard, medium and soft, pretty well cover all situations. 
 
This is pure elbow grease, just clean everything. 



Run your fingers through the leaves, rub or scrape off anything you can. 

Obviously be gentle and try not to damage the plants, some green spot algae simply will not come off some plants.
 
If you have mosses or floating plants take them out and gently rinse them under a tap with cool or tepid water, gently work your fingers through. 

Wet a paper towel or soft lint free cloth with Fleet Enemas (or store brand) and wipe down the glass to the substrate along with any smooth hard surfaces.

Refill the tank, dose fertz as you would from the beginning, any plan you wish is good just remember the excellent case Zorfox made, nothing new here just good practice. 



Joe
FBTB


----------



## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

kidgrave said:


> Wow, you got a good price. Would you mind linking me to that fixture? I think MH is a good fixture for tanks that are 24 inches deep. By the way, my fiance lives in Australia, but I live in USA. What good LED fixtures do you guys have in Australia for planted tanks? Thank you for answering my questions.
> 
> What made you decide to use a MH fixture?


I just was lucky. I went to ebay, listed MH lights and those ending soonest, and there was one, with 15min to go for starting price of $10 plus $10 handling. It arrived. Its only 60cm, but it blasts the light out thats for sure!

Search ebay for "*220/240V Aquarium 150W Metal Halide Lamp 60CM HQI Light SD-B-600B*"


----------



## kidgrave (Feb 4, 2014)

Zorfox said:


> Sorry. The term everything is confusing. You're correct that light drives the process. However, eliminating a limitation increases the uptake of other resources.
> 
> Let me explain with a picture. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer so things make more sense to me when I can visualize them.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply. I have read an article that you posted before and am trying to understand what you'e explaining. I have a question. Let's say I am limited by N03, then the use of Phosphates and Potassium become limited as well to my plants? Once the N03 would be supplied in sufficient quantities, then the uptake of Phosphates and Potassium would increase because now the plant could use N03 and there are no other limiting factors, right?

I have been doing some thinking and EI also makes more logical sense to me. I wasn't dosing EI because I didn't want to do 50 percent water changes, but now I am okay with that. 

According to a website that I saw, it says that I should dose the following below for a 10 gallon tank:

10- 20 Gallon Aquariums
+/- 1/8 tsp KN03 (N) 3x a week 
+/- 1/32 tsp KH2P04 (P) 3x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp (2ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change

I became aware that Macros and Micros should not be dosed on the same day. What would you dose each day?

Bump:


JoeRoun said:


> Everything Zorfox said.
> 
> One fix is to do a large water change at least 50%, but I tend toward 80%. Before and/or during the water removal scrape all the algae you can, remove any excess mulm; dead damaged anything you can.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your response. My fiance would kill me if I used her toothbrush, lol.

I only run my fish tank lights for 7 hours a day, and have a medium light tank, meaning that I get about 40-45 par at the substrate. I understand that EI is mostly used on high light setups; therefore, do you think it would be a good idea to cut back on the dosing a bit. For example, do you think for my 10 gallon it would work out fine to dose the following:

+/- 1/8 tsp KN03 (N) 2x a week 
+/- 1/32 tsp KH2P04 (P) 2x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp (2ml) Trace Elements 2x a week
50% weekly water change

I understand that the purpose of EI is so that there are no nutrients being limited. The thing is that I don't have really high demanding plants. I think probably my most high light demanding plants are Christmas Moss, Eleocharis Parvula, and Staurogyne Repens.


----------



## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

Ive had success in double dosing excel combined with daily 5% water changes (enough to let your arms in without overflowing tank). Remove all the algae off glass and plants etc where possible. Open up a (preferably new) pillow that you no longer need and remove sufficient filling to cover the top of your canister filter at about a depth of 3 cm. This will physically remove the algae that you stir up and dislodge. First time, add 4 caps of Stresszyme Plus. Add 1 cap each day after that at the end. Keep this up for a week. Clean the new filter material and repeat until algae is gone. Keep up a routine with other nutrients and remove any dead plant matter or uneaten food along the way. Just my method.


----------



## JoeRoun (Dec 21, 2009)

*Need to Apologize My Experience Not Fitting Dogma*

Actually I think that dosing will work nicely as Zorfox said it is all about keeping everything non-limiting.

I also need to add that while green spot algae is a pain, if this is a young tank I would not get too excited over it. If it is a mature tank, then corrective measures are required. 

I admit that once-upon-a-time I was an every other day or 3-days each macros one day and micros the next, now I dose dry mixed all together, straight in the tank, definitely not “premixed.”

As to the plants you mention none of them require high light, in fact all three do well in low or medium light.

No doubt I will be told how wrong this is, but it is my experience and pretty much anything I say can easily be tested. That’s why Walmart sells mason jars cheap.

Joe
FBTB


----------



## kidgrave (Feb 4, 2014)

JoeRoun, the green spot algae is annoying me. My fish tank is about 4 months old. I don't understand how phosphates became a limiting factor in a dirted tank so fast. Once the nutrients are balanced, does green spot algae go away on its own from the glass, or must I scrub it?

I like what Zorfox said about keeping everything non-limiting, as it makes logical sense to me. According to him and other people, it is recommended to dose Macros and Micros 3 times a week on a 10-20 gallon. If dosing Macros and Micros 3 times a week on a 20 gallon, wouldn't dosing them 2 times work as well on my 10 gallon, since it is a smaller tank, and because my plants are not demanding, and as well as my lights being only about medium light (43-45 par at the substrate).


----------



## JoeRoun (Dec 21, 2009)

*Do As Zorfox Says Not As I Do*

Yeah, it is always hard to tell exactly what is what, we may not really “know” but in applying what Zorfox recommends you have better than a century of experience behind the methodology. In the early months it is important to have “rituals” that help keep things even and on track. When things go wrong we have a starting point. I really should not have mentioned my current laziness. 

So I would advise doing exactly what Zorfox recommends. It reduces the number of variables.

Particularly in younger tanks there are not the reserves, think of it as a kind of buffering that takes place as your tank matures. 

Some of what you are experiencing are almost a rite of passage. 

Doing the heavy work now well give you many more options later. No there is not an absolute need to scrub the Green Spot Algae away, it just shortens the time you have to deal with it and if you have slow growing plants it will help them as well.

Unless you are doing a tank for competition, a very definite life span, you are looking to an investment that will pay off for many years to come. 

It will almost feel like you and your tank have achieved a kind of immunity to the problems that befall everyone else. 

Once your tank(s) is/are years old setting up new tanks becomes simpler not just because of your experience but because you can pass on this “immunity” to your next tanks by “seeding” future tanks (and filters). 

This is one of the reason us old folks seem to have an easier time. Part of it is just being able to recognize problems before they become full blown *nasty-tear-your-hair-out-shout-at-the-dog*, problems, and part of it is the ability to “seed” our tanks…

Joe
FBTB


----------



## kidgrave (Feb 4, 2014)

JoeRoun said:


> Yeah, it is always hard to tell exactly what is what, we may not really “know” but in applying what Zorfox recommends you have better than a century of experience behind the methodology. In the early months it is important to have “rituals” that help keep things even and on track. When things go wrong we have a starting point. I really should not have mentioned my current laziness.
> 
> So I would advise doing exactly what Zorfox recommends. It reduces the number of variables.
> 
> ...


I'm just going to start dosing EI like Zorfox said. Everyday, I'm just going to give my plants 8 hours of light, and dose 2 ml of API CO2 booster. I'm happy that you guys told me about the EI method, this way my plants can just grow as much as the want, and I don't have to worry about which nutrient is needed, or about algae problems. As my tank matures, I know my tank is going to demand more nutrients, specially because I'm carpeting with Staurogyne Repens. It seems like S Repens loves the phosphates.


----------



## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

kidgrave said:


> Thanks for your reply. I have read an article that you posted before and am trying to understand what you'e explaining. I have a question. Let's say I am limited by N03, then the use of Phosphates and Potassium become limited as well to my plants? Once the N03 would be supplied in sufficient quantities, then the uptake of Phosphates and Potassium would increase because now the plant could use N03 and there are no other limiting factors, right?


I do not fully understand what you're asking. The barrel analogy is known as Liebig's law of the minimum. Using this idea, there can only be one limiting nutrient at a time. So once the NO3 limitation is corrected the next nutrient (if any) in least supply would become the limitation.

I would like to add that this is a very simplistic comparison. It was used for single species crop yields. Applying this to an entire eco system is entirely different. In ecology, there can be multiple limitations for the system. However, this is an easy way to explain non-limiting nutrients and applies well to the planted tank. I don’t mean to confuse you with this paragraph. I simply don’t want to imply this analogy as an absolute law for the planted tank. It’s not. Merely, an easy analogy used to explain how to achieve the goals we have, which is to provide maximal growth and plant health.




kidgrave said:


> According to a website that I saw, it says that I should dose the following below for a 10 gallon tank:
> 10- 20 Gallon Aquariums
> +/- 1/8 tsp KN03 (N) 3x a week
> +/- 1/32 tsp KH2P04 (P) 3x a week
> ...


These amounts are for high light and CO2 injection. Excel based tanks will use much less nutrients probably around 10% of CO2/high light tanks. Reducing the amounts above to one third leaves plenty of room for error in my opinion. 

_Warning, heretical statement to follow:_ That said, as long as you’re doing the water changes there is no need to try and approach the actual amounts the plants will use. Dosing full EI will have no deleterious effects as long as appropriate water changes are done. This is why I say 1/3 of that amount rather than 10%. I see no reason to approach nutrient limitation to save fertilizers. Dry fertilizers are ridiculously cheap.

I prefer to dose solutions on a small tank. Especially when it's not CO2 injected. Here is a link to a thread I started listing recipes for solutions. You simply can't accurately measure dry fertilizers in such small quantities.




kidgrave said:


> I became aware that Macros and Micros should not be dosed on the same day. What would you dose each day?


The reason behind this is that phosphates and iron can precipitate. However, for this to happen the concentrations have to be quite high. I’ve personally never had a problem dosing them on the same day. I do wait until one is fully dissolved into the water column though. Other than that, I think it’s more of a warning that this can occur. Pouring them both at the same time is not a good idea.


Joe brought up several good points as well. You would be wise to head his advice. He’s quite a knowledgeable person in my opinion. 

I think it’s important to mention that PO4 limitation is only one cause. This thread has veered towards correcting a simple limitation, PO4. My bad. I can get pretty “wordy” when it’s not necessary lol.

Don’t forget the CO2 limitation. Too many hobbyists fail to realize that tanks can be CO2 limited despite no CO2 injection. Reducing CO2 loss by altering surface agitation is one way to increase CO2. Adding Excel is another. If these fail it does not mean CO2 is not limited. We can decrease the CO2 demand, thereby, eliminating CO2 limitation by decreasing the lighting. This is a basic idea many fail to realize. If the above measures do not work, consider methods to reduce your lighting.


----------



## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

So in a non co2 tank with no excel should one aim for more or less surface agitation? (assume the tank is co2 deficient)
in my 75g i have a good amount of surface agitation, i don't dose excel or injected co2 and i don't plan to. But if i can tweak my agitation to get the most out of it I will. So do I am for more or less surface agitation in my case? 



Zorfox said:


> I do not fully understand what you're asking. The barrel analogy is known as Liebig's law of the minimum. Using this idea, there can only be one limiting nutrient at a time. So once the NO3 limitation is corrected the next nutrient (if any) in least supply would become the limitation.
> 
> I would like to add that this is a very simplistic comparison. It was used for single species crop yields. Applying this to an entire eco system is entirely different. In ecology, there can be multiple limitations for the system. However, this is an easy way to explain non-limiting nutrients and applies well to the planted tank. I don’t mean to confuse you with this paragraph. I simply don’t want to imply this analogy as an absolute law for the planted tank. It’s not. Merely, an easy analogy used to explain how to achieve the goals we have, which is to provide maximal growth and plant health.
> 
> ...


----------



## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Surface agitation helps injected CO2 to dissapate into the air as the level of it in the water is higher than normal. The reverse is true/w a tank that has no injected CO2.
The agitation will cause more water to come in contact with the air's surface and the CO2 in the air can then mix easier with it.
Where the two surfaces contact each other, the one which has more of will allow some to be transfered to the one which has less of.


----------



## kidgrave (Feb 4, 2014)

Zorfox, sorry if my reply is short. I'm in class, and trying to reply as much as I can. I know that ferts are cheap, and wouldn't mind dosing with EI 3 times a week. If I dosed 2 times a week, as I was planning, I think that would be 2/3 the amount of EI. This just kinda makes sense to me because I have a medium light tank. Most high light tanks at the substrate have about 70-80 par, while mine only gets about half the ammount, which is about 43 par. I have been dosing daily 2ml of API co2 booster to make sure co2 is not a limiting factor.


----------



## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

Raymond S. said:


> Surface agitation helps injected CO2 to dissapate into the air as the level of it in the water is higher than normal. The reverse is true/w a tank that has no injected CO2.
> The agitation will cause more water to come in contact with the air's surface and the CO2 in the air can then mix easier with it.
> Where the two surfaces contact each other, the one which has more of will allow some to be transfered to the one which has less of.


So in a non co2 injected non excel tank more agitation is better right?

If this is true how much is needed? Like would a good ripple on the entire surface be enough? Or like waves would be needed.


----------



## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

Sorry my previous comments caused confusion. Decreasing surface agitation increases CO2 in a injected tank only. Low tech, including Excel, makes little difference. A slow ripple will diffuse O2 and CO2 to equlibrium. Excel does not actually provide CO2 gas so there is none lost.


----------



## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

Remember, higher oxygen allows higher co2 however they're both independent


----------

