# Nano Experiment



## geekgirl (Feb 4, 2003)

Can't wait to hear the results of this. Although I'll be more interested in the water quality and clarity for now than the plant growth. I'm wondering if the water will stay stained/cloudy from using a mud substrate. Also curious about anaerobic pocket. 

Good experiment. Keep us posted.

Stacey


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## m.lemay (Jul 28, 2002)

Definitely a COOL experiment. 8) Take a few small clippings from your main tank and throw them in there too. Have you tested the water column for nitrates and phosphates? Even though its filled with tap water, the soil nutrients ought to leach into the water column somewhat.

The 15 watt bulb should be enough light if the tanks not overly deep. 3WPG isn't too shabby. 

The only thing that may cloud your experiment is the lack of CO2, especially when comparing your exhisting clippings to your main tank.

I'll be very interested in your findings.  

Marcel


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## marpole (Mar 12, 2003)

Now that's one of the best reasons for a new tank I've heard  . Sounds like a fun experiment...


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

*This tank is sooooo kool !*
I have seedlings growing out of that soil that 
I had never planned on and the "grassy" plants
that I dug up are awesome ! Now I am trying to 
put a name to this stuff ! 
This experiment has definately been worth the effort allready :wink: 

Some photos here...

www.buckmanshome.com/nano.html

*Buck* 8)


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## geekgirl (Feb 4, 2003)

This is a very cool experiment. Makes me want to try one of my own in the huge ceramic pot I have on the front porch. 

I think this is your mystery vine:

http://naturalaquariums.com/plants/ceratophyllum.html

The grasses look like common lawn grasses to me too, but I didn't think they would grow in water that deep. Is it possible they are some sort of dwarf rush? You could always pull a little and take it into the Master Gardener's office at your local university. They usually do IDs on plants for nothing. Part of their certification process I think. 

I have some Peruvian Daffodils growing in my yard they ID'd for me last year. Of course they'll never bloom, not hot enough around here... (and that wasn't at ALL off topic-heehee.) 

Stacey

BTW, I think the pond link on that nano page is currently broken (homestead page not found). Looks really awesome though so far. Be interesting to see if the plants try to emerge. Tired...rambling...nuf said...


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## Work In Progress (Mar 4, 2003)

Well I can definitely tell ya, Buck's mystery vine is NOT hornwort. 
The mystery vine is very very fine, it is also soft, not prickly at all like the hornwort. Although when I looked at the pic of his nano project, I thought it looked like hornwort too.


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## GDominy (Jul 30, 2002)

That mystery vine is an evil, evil plant. I had to remove it by the BUCKETFULL from my 135 gallon tank because it took over. It grows very, very quickly in Nitrate rich water.


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## Kai (Mar 31, 2003)

Hi Buck,

What kind of soil did you use?


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## corvus (Dec 23, 2002)

Work In Progress said:


> Well I can definitely tell ya, Buck's mystery vine is NOT hornwort.
> The mystery vine is very very fine, it is also soft, not prickly at all like the hornwort.


Well, I must have the same stuff, whatever it is. I thought mine was hornwort for the past 10 months, but it is very soft and looks exactly like the stuff in Buck's pics. I collected it from a stream in maryland (however, lots of non-native species in our waterways down here). a friend of mine told me it was something called "foxtail" but i never really took him seriously. I'd love to find out what that grass/rush is, looks way cool!

I have a 45 gallon tank with a mud/peat/gravel substrate, no co2, shoplite 80 watts. Soil from backyard, left submerged in buckets for 2 months before mixing in peat and putting in tank. Did it as an experiment while researching everything for my 90. Green hygro, Jungle val, some other val, java fern, anacharis, couple crypts, "foxtail" and 2 other mystery species collected from local streams. (I've said before, I'm lazy).

Much red clay in my soil, was very red when first set up. Took 2 days to settle. You don't want to move stuff in this tank, uprooting causes fair bit of cloudiness, but plants grow well, especialy the vals.

Also, have never smelled sulfide or anything else when removing plants, so no indication of anerobic pockets.


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

Thankyou Stacy... I fixed the link on my page. Also thats a great idea on how to ID these plants (if they work out) 

_____________________________________________________________

That plant is definately not hornwort...its just a weed like corvus says it could be foxtail or a type of...
I know we have foxtail in some of the lakes around here but it is a different variety then this. Really sucks getting it in the prop ! :lol: 
_____________________________________________________________

*Kai*,
That soil I used is just really dark pond bottom that I dug up and did nothing to... this is all for fun and learning... and so far its been real fun.  
_____________________________________________________________


*Tank Update*
Those grass clumps are outta control and have almost reached the top allready and they dont look like they plan to slow down much... :roll: 
Now I'm thinking of how tall they get...hmmm :idea: 
For now though I will just prune them back. I do not want to disturb the seedlings I have coming out of the soil... I have another 10 or so seedlings coming up! (foreground type plant?) :wink: 
_Dont laugh_... without Mr Amano, we never would have thought to use a "native weed" like Riccia fluitans and turn it into one of the most "sought after" Aquarium Plants? :lol: :lol: 

But Im having a blast with this tank... its like Xmas in there... ya never know what ya gonna get :wink: 

Dang ! Wheres My Camera ! 
roud:


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## geekgirl (Feb 4, 2003)

Okay, how about this one?

http://www.cnipm.org/myriophyllum_spicatum.html

Dang, mystery plants can keep me awake at nights! This is how I found out about the Master Gardener ID program  

Thanks alot Buck for contributing to my insomnia! 

Stacey


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## corvus (Dec 23, 2002)

Well, sunnysm, it ain't that either. I have some eurasian milfoil (collected again) in my pond, the spaces between branches (interstices?) are longer, and the feathery leaves are longer too. 

I applaud your hard work in trying to figure this out, more work than I'm willing to do.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

> I have some Peruvian Daffodils growing in my yard they ID'd for me last year. Of course they'll never bloom, not hot enough around here... (and that wasn't at ALL off topic-heehee.)


 Hmm.... the Peruvian Daffodils bloom for me out in east Portland. I see no reason they won't bloom for you.


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## Kai (Mar 31, 2003)

Buck said:


> ____________________________________________________________
> 
> *Kai*,
> That soil I used is just really dark pond bottom that I dug up and did nothing to... this is all for fun and learning... and so far its been real fun.
> _____________________________________________________________


Understood  Hope it keeps on being fun.


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## geekgirl (Feb 4, 2003)

Hi Rex! How was vacation? My Daffs don't bloom because our lot has mostly shade and the ground stays cooler. So far I've tried two different spots. No luck.  Third spot this year, we'll see if they bloom. Those microclimates... I know they can flower in OR, I've seen them in yards, just not mine. :fire: 

If they don't bloom this year I'm going to dig up the whole lot and give them away. Any takers?

Buck, maybe the next plant bundle you have, I'll take. You could send some mystery vine and I'll give it to the plant "gurus" at the aquarium club for ID too. Get everyone in on the sleuthing. That's the fun part! :mrgreen: 

Stacey

btw, Rex...Endler's? Still got 'em?


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## corvus (Dec 23, 2002)

sunny, you do let the green growth on the daffodills live untill it turns brown, correct? If you cut down the greens before they die off, the bulb will not have enough energy to flower the next year, it'll just put up vegetation till it stores enough reserves to expend on flowers.


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## geekgirl (Feb 4, 2003)

yep, actually, I'm quite an experienced outdoor gardener. The seasonal nursery down the street offers me work everytime I go in there, and my yard is starting to look like Holland (or Woodburn, for those in Oregon  )

Just the peruvian Daffodils don't flower, and the Beautyberry only gets a few berries. I guess I'll be moving that this week (groan!)


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

I still have the Endler's. All we need to do is set a time for you to come over and get some. I have my PD in full sun so I get the flowers every year. You need to add more light to your lot


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## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

Buck I have been looking at the pictures of your 5g nano planted tank and first let me say that is a bad ___ web page. What do you use to build something like that, is it some software you can download off the internet?

And, in looking at the detailed pics of the setup Id like to make a few predictions. This system is already very aged in terms of microfauna and bacterial colonies that are adjusted to this type of substrate-a good thing. One thing this nano will have that _few_ nanos have is a sandbed rich in organic material, not necessarily raw fertilizers such as bulk phosphate but compounds and elements locked up in bacterial, animal and plant matter all at varying stages of decay. 

This rate of decay is what releases the critical nutrients for algae buildup, so thriving plants should compete for much of it in the water column. A denser stocking of fast growers such as val may help to pull nutrients out of the water. In this setup, Id predict it would be favorable to _limit_ water permeation in the sandbed to keep its richness to a minimum in the upper column. Once you have a decent root matrix (if not already) aerenchyma from active plant growth will keep the soil healthy, minimizing anaerobic patches.

When I build another nano I want to try rich organic soil like the type you have found---already accustomed to life underwater. This will hold a massive amount of trace elements, dosing will be almost nill Id suspect/great tank bro this type of nutrient supply is just what a planted nano needs--all natural and quite a store for the volume in question....


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

Glad ya like my site Brandon, its created using Homestead... very simple to use :wink:



> Once you have a decent root matrix (if not already) aerenchyma from active plant growth will keep the soil healthy, minimizing anaerobic patches.


This is my biggest concern... I recently setup a 56 gallon tank and was toying with the soil idea for _that _ tank but chickened out... :lol: This is the reason for this tank, to see how soil might work. The roots are growing rapidly in here so I shouldnt see a problem very soon, but the test of time is what Im after. 
_*I'd rather see a small problem in a small tank... then a big problem in a big tank ! *_:lol:


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## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

Ill tell you about the day I first saw this with my own eyes.

I was in a plant store called Holland Gardens here in Lubbock. Was looking for terrestrial plants for the terrarium bowls, then I came across this outdoor pond that had large pots of dwarf saggitaria--a better aquatic plant specimen than id ever seen in a LFS, who has mainly small plant cuttings or rubber banded groups for sale.

These were dense little pots of saggitaria, three being enough to fill a ten gallon twice over. they had been in this pond for *two years* and not been sold or fertilized. This was not a fish pond, the water was not circulated or changed in two years, it just held seasonal plants to keep them moist outside (it was moved in during winter) Other plant shipments were continually stacked on top of them or in front of them, but they still managed to grow root masses so thick it was about to split the side of the heavy plastic pots---thickest root matrix I have *ever* seen on an aquatic bundle. And, the soil was pure dark clay mud 9 inches deep. Black as night, but did not smell foul in the least. If any aquarist had substrate like this they'd panic, but I think mother nature is telling us that an extremely organic, fine-particle substrate is not detrimental in the presence of strong root matrix. Without the root growth, anaerobic rot would prevail underwater due to the abundance of nutrients and the lack of higher fixation. I think it may be vital in sustaining such a matrix over the long haul


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

Well I had to tear out the native "grasslike" plants that were doing so well... they grew like heck and then just withered away... then at the bases it started all over again. Its like it peaks then dies off... threw it all out.

I pulled all the plants, mixed in a pound or so of sand (black moon sand) and then capped it with a little more sand. 
Out of the original plants I dug up I have only 1 type left, it resembles H.polysperma in a way, and I also have the little sword from a shoot in my 30 gallon. Time to plant some more... Im thinkin Anubia's or small crypts...not sure yet.
Back to the drawing board... :lol:


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## corvus (Dec 23, 2002)

Buck said:


> Well I had to tear out the native "grasslike" plants that were doing so well... they grew like heck and then just withered away... then at the bases it started all over again. Its like it peaks then dies off... threw it all out.


Well, that sounds to me like they were actually marginal plants, not true submerged plants. In other words, they just like their feet wet, not the foliage. You prolly already knew that, or came to the same conclusion.

The rush-type ones still look interesting to me, going to try to find some of those around here, see what they do as a marginal in my pond. When it warms up a bit more, and I have all my spring yard/pond preparations done, I'm going to do some serious search for native species, esp. for my pond. Going to go as native as possible, really sick of plants i have to overwinter in the house.


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

That is correct Corvus, not submersible... they were well below the old water line but when I went back to the pond I realized that where I found them had been drained since the tail end of last summer so they had some time to seed there so to speak. 
They were kool while they lasted, and Yes , they would be very nice in your pond's edges, I have found a patch down the road that is growing at the edges of a small pond with the foliage half out of the water... its 14 " Tall and a rich green color. Would be an awesome terrarium plant too. 

But hey, thats the fun of trying natives, ya just never know how it will respond to OUR conditions which are very different then their natural lighting and ferts.
Concentrate on marshy areas at your local ponds... it seems to like still water.


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