# Rolla's 118G Journal - Discus Heavy!



## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

I can't wait to see where your tank journey leads you! It's such a fun experience! I'm glad my friend showed me some aquascaping pictures a few years ago and that lit the aquarium fire in me again after a few years away and a lifetime of being a clueless fish keeper. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Mike! (Mar 26, 2018)

Name-checked in an inaugural post! New heights of plantedtank notoriety!

I'm delighted by the width of your spectrum in plant difficulty. (Though, sidebar, are anubias and crypts actually easy if you care that they look good?) I'm intrigued with where you might be going with stocking. 120 gallons of bettas? Is that a thing? And I'm taking notes on the carpet as I just clicked on my CO2 a couple weeks ago and I'm still oscillating between Monte Carlo and ... everything else.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

chayos00 said:


> I can't wait to see where your tank journey leads you! It's such a fun experience! I'm glad my friend showed me some aquascaping pictures a few years ago and that lit the aquarium fire in me again after a few years away and a lifetime of being a clueless fish keeper.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



I'm expecting a lot of plant melt, fungus, and some frustration but as long as I get the aquarium balanced, I'll be happy. I don't think the aquarium fire ever left you, my guess is that it shifted to the back burner until you were ready again. After some time away from the hobby, when we bought our current address earlier this year, the first thing that came to mind for me was "I wonder what aquarium would look the best against that wall!" 



Mike! said:


> Name-checked in an inaugural post! New heights of plantedtank notoriety!
> 
> I'm delighted by the width of your spectrum in plant difficulty. (Though, sidebar, are anubias and crypts actually easy if you care that they look good?) I'm intrigued with where you might be going with stocking. 120 gallons of bettas? Is that a thing? And I'm taking notes on the carpet as I just clicked on my CO2 a couple weeks ago and I'm still oscillating between Monte Carlo and ... everything else.


Hey Mike

The betta conversation was to see if it's possible to add a male splenden to a planted community. It seems you have to go against the grain of conventional wisdom to do it, but I think it's possible. I'm going to try it and see how it pans out. I plan to monitor my Monte Carlo and Marsilea Crenata closely (this camera has a few tricks to help with that) and I'll update in a week - 10 days with the results which should help if you can wait that long. 

And it's not Notoriety by any stretch of the imagination. I'd call it fame :laugh2: Your journal is a really good read and I'm still in awe of your pogostemon stellatus!


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Sometimes we do need to jump in the water, if only to get our feet wet. Does it always good smoothly? NO! 
But like I used to tell the old boss, "the only guys making mistakes are the ones who are working." Those who are not making a few mistakes are likely to not be getting much done, either! 
I lose a few plants or fish, now and then, even though I try to hold it down. But when fishing or golfing, I also lost a few things like lures and golf balls.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

PlantedRich said:


> But when fishing or golfing, I also lost a few things like lures and golf balls.


LOL. Especially a fresh golf ball right out the pack, or a lure on the first cast. Arrrggghhhhh!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Good morning! Looks like the start of a nice build thread. Guessing the FX6 will have more than enough filtering volume for this size tank - will be interesting to see what arrangement you end up with for output into the tank (spray bar(s), lilly pipe, DIY, end to end or front to back, etc.) I'm finding in my 75g tank the AquaTOP 500 with a spray bar at the top right is plenty to create some flow at the bottom left. I do have 1 Hydor Koralia 450 running but debate it's usefulness. When the plants are trimmed short, it really is not needed. When the plants are nearly to the surface, I find it helpful (if that all makes sense).
Curious about your lighting setup - have absolutely no experience with those bulbs. Just arm chair guessing the light level won't be super high which is a good thing - especially for a new tank. 

As always, look forward to your progress.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

PlantedRich said:


> Sometimes we do need to jump in the water, if only to get our feet wet. Does it always good smoothly? NO!
> But like I used to tell the old boss, "the only guys making mistakes are the ones who are working." Those who are not making a few mistakes are likely to not be getting much done, either!
> I lose a few plants or fish, now and then, even though I try to hold it down. But when fishing or golfing, I also lost a few things like lures and golf balls.


Wise words indeed. It does feel good to be back in the mix. My lighting and circulation are the biggest concern for me right now but I guess any issues will reveal themselves in due course. 



Greggz said:


> LOL. Especially a fresh golf ball right out the pack, or a lure on the first cast. Arrrggghhhhh!


Hey Greg!



Immortal1 said:


> Good morning! Looks like the start of a nice build thread. Guessing the FX6 will have more than enough filtering volume for this size tank - will be interesting to see what arrangement you end up with for output into the tank (spray bar(s), lilly pipe, DIY, end to end or front to back, etc.) I'm finding in my 75g tank the AquaTOP 500 with a spray bar at the top right is plenty to create some flow at the bottom left. I do have 1 Hydor Koralia 450 running but debate it's usefulness. When the plants are trimmed short, it really is not needed. When the plants are nearly to the surface, I find it helpful (if that all makes sense).
> Curious about your lighting setup - have absolutely no experience with those bulbs. Just arm chair guessing the light level won't be super high which is a good thing - especially for a new tank.
> 
> As always, look forward to your progress.


Hey Immortal 

I really like the FX6. However, the outflow isn't sufficient to get circulation to all parts of the tank and also the lilly pipe (I'm not sure if it's called that) seems to slide down from it's connection and few Centimeters overnight? I went with the Koralia (gen 3) because of the magnet connection taking up minimal space. Combined they appear to be getting flow to every part of the tank. 

The light unit is by Juwel. A German company that's pretty much cornered the EU aquarium market and they do everything to force you into purchasing their products by customizing their fittings. 

The light unit that ships with the aquarium is actually:
1x31W LED DAY - 9000 K
1x31W LED NATURE - 6500 K
Total Lumens of 7130

I bought an additional light unit to double those stats. The definition of low/med/high isn't clear especially since "lumens" and "watts" define med/low light differently. 










I'm still on the lower end of the light spectrum but in a much better position to grow a wider range of plants, hopefully.


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## nbgolds (Aug 21, 2018)

Subbed -- sounds like a great start! That's quite an extensive plant list, it really seems like you've done a lot of planning before jumping in. I'll be interested to see which of those thrive in your setup. Looking forward to updates!



Greggz said:


> LOL. Especially a fresh golf ball right out the pack, or a lure on the first cast. Arrrggghhhhh!


lol, I've lost a few lures on the first cast...and some of the jerkbaits I use for chasing walleye are not cheap...makes you sick when it happens!! :surprise:


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

nbgolds said:


> Subbed -- sounds like a great start! That's quite an extensive plant list, it really seems like you've done a lot of planning before jumping in. I'll be interested to see which of those thrive in your setup. Looking forward to updates!
> 
> 
> 
> lol, I've lost a few lures on the first cast...and some of the jerkbaits I use for chasing walleye are not cheap...makes you sick when it happens!! :surprise:


Hi nbgolds

My water parameters have changed because of the house move so I'm a little worried about what will thrive or fail too. I plan to update regardless. 



Thanks for the post.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

RollaPrime said:


> Wise words indeed. It does feel good to be back in the mix. My lighting and circulation are the biggest concern for me right now but I guess any issues will reveal themselves in due course.
> 
> Hey Immortal
> 
> ...



Interesting products - was just visiting their site. From what I can see, the fixture does not have dimming functions? Basically turn on / turn off like a regular T5 fluorescent fixture. I see they do have 3 different bulbs and with your 4 bulb setup you do at least have some flexibility in how your tanks looks. I know @Greggz has juggled several different brands / models of T5 bulbs to get where he is at. As you stated, Lumens does not necessarily work for a planted tank - will be interesting to see just how bright those lights actually are. With a total of 124 watts of LED light you should have pretty decent power.


Curious, what does the FX6 have for a tank return? Honest I have not owned one so I have no idea. Pretty much DIY on all of my tanks.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

That's a good looking tank. 

Balancing the amount of light for the crypts/anubias/buce, Ludwigias/stems, and the carpet should be interesting. I have no clue what kind of PAR those lights produce. Would be interesting to know. 

The tank dimensions are very much similar to my 120G. Like mine, your tank is somewhat tall, which has it's challenges with lighting.

Good luck, and this should be an interesting one to follow. Very much looking forward to seeing it planted.

Subscribed!


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## Mike! (Mar 26, 2018)

RollaPrime said:


> I plan to monitor my Monte Carlo and Marsilea Crenata closely (this camera has a few tricks to help with that) and I'll update in a week - 10 days with the results which should help if you can wait that long.
> 
> And it's not Notoriety by any stretch of the imagination. I'd call it fame :laugh2: Your journal is a really good read and I'm still in awe of your pogostemon stellatus!


I'm theoretically on a self-imposed plant hiatus until I see the Amano exhibit in Lisbon early next month, so plenty of time! I have a well-documented history of delaying gratification!*

As for _notoriety _, I was thinking of that as a positive, you know, all press is good press. But then, I have a lot of funny ideas about words.

*False


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Immortal1 said:


> Interesting products - was just visiting their site. From what I can see, the fixture does not have dimming functions? Basically turn on / turn off like a regular T5 fluorescent fixture. I see they do have 3 different bulbs and with your 4 bulb setup you do at least have some flexibility in how your tanks looks. I know @Greggz has juggled several different brands / models of T5 bulbs to get where he is at. As you stated, Lumens does not necessarily work for a planted tank - will be interesting to see just how bright those lights actually are. With a total of 124 watts of LED light you should have pretty decent power.
> 
> 
> Curious, what does the FX6 have for a tank return? Honest I have not owned one so I have no idea. Pretty much DIY on all of my tanks.


In my time away from the hobby it seems things have changed significantly in terms of lighting, in a relatively short space of time too. I joined the planted reddit shortly after signing up here. Initially I thought LED was more about the aesthetics. Coming from a T5HO "background" customizing the day/night/dawn light cycle, and ripple effect seemed more of a fun feature than a necessity. It wasn't until Juwel themselves (the company that dominates the EU aquarium market) started shipping their units with LED units after years of T5 that I started looking into it. The rule that I was given about Lumens were

<10K super low light
20K> medium

I didn't bother to remember what high light is in lumens because I've never wanted to be in that spectrum. But with the standard light unit for my tank being 7130 lumens, I figured doubling that should put me in a better position to at least attempt to keep a wider range of plants. As for the FX6 return, it's listed on amazon as the "Output Nozzle" so not a lilly pipe as I referred o it earlier.








Essentially a ball head connection.



Greggz said:


> That's a good looking tank.
> 
> Balancing the amount of light for the crypts/anubias/buce, Ludwigias/stems, and the carpet should be interesting. I have no clue what kind of PAR those lights produce. Would be interesting to know.
> 
> ...


I appreciate the follow Greg. I still look through your thread whenever it's updated. Truly stunning! 

I'm a little concerned about the slower growing plants too. I've decided to keep some algae eating catfish in the aquarium to feed off any excess diatoms that may develop. The problem with that is I've never kept catfish algae eaters before. And it appears that some only eat algae as juveniles and then graduate to flake. Others are commonly sold as one species while being another. Some grow too large etc etc. I added the cycled media today so have a week before the bacs start to die off (I fed them pure ammonia last night) and will take some time to research, source and be able to ID the species needed as well as how many for fish-in day next week



Mike! said:


> I'm theoretically on a self-imposed plant hiatus until I see the Amano exhibit in Lisbon early next month, so plenty of time! I have a well-documented history of delaying gratification!*
> 
> As for notoriety , I was thinking of that as a positive, you know, all press is good press. But then, I have a lot of funny ideas about words.
> 
> *False


Ahh I see. I thought you meant notoriety as being famous for something bad. But it's all good lol. 

I chose those two carpeting plants because they were described on Tropica's site as "medium" for both growth rate and amount of light required. I couldn't decide between the two and had little info as to which grows the "fastest." I put that in quotes because I know that growth rate is a variable according to each individual set up. That said, the aim is to get a carpet pulling in as much excess nutrients as possible as quickly as possible. So out of the two, whichever responds best to my particular setup gets the job.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

RollaPrime said:


> I've decided to keep some algae eating catfish in the aquarium to feed off any excess diatoms that may develop. The problem with that is I've never kept catfish algae eaters before. And it appears that some only eat algae as juveniles and then graduate to flake.


Curious what fish are you talking about? SAE's? Oto's?


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

I am excited to follow along on this one and see where you take it! I envy the deeper tank, that will give you many possibilities while scaping and stocking! I'll absolutely be following along. Subscribed!


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Greggz said:


> Curious what fish are you talking about? SAE's? Oto's?


I'm leaning towards Otocinclus. I was reading through a thread on the forum that threw me a little. Being inexperienced with them I figured I'd research more closer to Fish-in day next week. What would you recommend?



Grobbins48 said:


> I am excited to follow along on this one and see where you take it! I envy the deeper tank, that will give you many possibilities while scaping and stocking! I'll absolutely be following along. Subscribed!



I really appreciate the kind words. I've always wanted a larger tank. The planned scape had to be changed due to flow issues and the stocking is still a rough idea as I'm still deciding between species. Have you by any chance read through the uncommon tetras thread?
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/21-fish/1261818-show-off-your-uncommon-tetras.html

I haven't been able to source any but did spend a while researching if a few of my favs in there were available. I have narrowed it down to a large school of about 7 species but it changes every time I go to the LFS.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

RollaPrime said:


> I'm leaning towards Otocinclus. I was reading through a thread on the forum that threw me a little. Being inexperienced with them I figured I'd research more closer to Fish-in day next week. What would you recommend?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Otocinclus are one of my favorite fish in general. They are really enjoyable little schoolers. I would suggest a minimum of 6 of them but the larger the school the better, especially if you are thinking of doing a school of tetras in the tank as well (in my opinion). I have 6 in my 55, and almost bought 6 more today, but will be out of town for the next week, so I held off for now. They can be fragil fish at first due the the sourcing, warehousing, and shipping process, so make sure you watch them for a few moments in the tank that they are active and moving around. I also typically add them when I have some algae growth in the tank to have a natural food source. You can also use blanched zucchini, etc. for them.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

If you have any questions specific to tetras I can help.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

RollaPrime said:


> I'm leaning towards Otocinclus. I was reading through a thread on the forum that threw me a little. Being inexperienced with them I figured I'd research more closer to Fish-in day next week. What would you recommend?


I recommend not relying on any algae eaters. Not saying it's not good to have some, but they aren't going to dent a major outbreak if one pops up.

And while I generally don't keep any algae eaters, I do have a handful of Oto's I bought a long time ago somewhere in my tank. I only see them on water change day, as in a heavily planted tank there are lots of places to hide. And honestly I don't really think they make a noticeable difference. Mine are pretty chubby, but might just be eating leftover food for all I know. 

My guess is that if things are really off in the tank, and algae is a real problem, you would need an army of them to make a real impact (at least in a large tank). The only real solution is find the root causes and correct them.


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## nbgolds (Aug 21, 2018)

I have four otos, and I love them. Like grobbins said, not only for their amazing algae-destroying super powers, but for who they are as fish. lol, that sounds like someone saying they like Clark Kent better than Superman, but yeah. Honestly, they're fun to watch, zooming around the tank, together in pairs or sometimes as loners. And they can get to the craziest positions under leaves, filter pipes, and so on. I supplement mine with par-boiled zucchini, which I keep frozen until I need a new piece. If you decide to go with otos, make sure you feed them something besides relying on algae.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Grobbins48 said:


> Otocinclus are one of my favorite fish in general. They are really enjoyable little schoolers. I would suggest a minimum of 6 of them but the larger the school the better, especially if you are thinking of doing a school of tetras in the tank as well (in my opinion). I have 6 in my 55, and almost bought 6 more today, but will be out of town for the next week, so I held off for now. They can be fragil fish at first due the the sourcing, warehousing, and shipping process, so make sure you watch them for a few moments in the tank that they are active and moving around. I also typically add them when I have some algae growth in the tank to have a natural food source. You can also use blanched zucchini, etc. for them.



This is great advice! I'll get 6 to start with and see how things pan out. I think I mentioned earlier that I only have 7 days before bacs start to die off so this time next week, if I get a larger tetra species, I'll definitely join the group of proud Oto owners. 




Discusluv said:


> If you have any questions specific to tetras I can help.


Hi Discusluv! I'm currently deciding between a large school of

Bleeding heart
Rummynose
Silver tip
Black Skirt
Diamond
Rummynose
Bloodfin


Or an even larger school of Green neons. I'm basing it more on how active the school will be. Obviously Rummynose will school tightly but I do like tetras that will display and spawn in my parameters. I'm really undecided and although I'd like to make a decision before hand, it might be what looks best on the day.




Greggz said:


> I recommend not relying on any algae eaters. Not saying it's not good to have some, but they aren't going to dent a major outbreak if one pops up.
> 
> And while I generally don't keep any algae eaters, I do have a handful of Oto's I bought a long time ago somewhere in my tank. I only see them on water change day, as in a heavily planted tank there are lots of places to hide. And honestly I don't really think they make a noticeable difference. Mine are pretty chubby, but might just be eating leftover food for all I know.
> 
> My guess is that if things are really off in the tank, and algae is a real problem, you would need an army of them to make a real impact (at least in a large tank). The only real solution is find the root causes and correct them.


Definitely Gregg! I'm aiming for a balance first and foremost. I'm not buying them to fix any potential issues more so to be "caretakers." Previously I'd rely on shrimp for that role but larger tetras will feast on cherry sized shrimp so Otos have become an option. I might get rummies or neons and stick with shrimp since I've housed those species together without issue. 



nbgolds said:


> I have four otos, and I love them. Like grobbins said, not only for their amazing algae-destroying super powers, but for who they are as fish. lol, that sounds like someone saying they like Clark Kent better than Superman, but yeah. Honestly, they're fun to watch, zooming around the tank, together in pairs or sometimes as loners. And they can get to the craziest positions under leaves, filter pipes, and so on. I supplement mine with par-boiled zucchini, which I keep frozen until I need a new piece. If you decide to go with otos, make sure you feed them something besides relying on algae.



I have the white fur/fungs on wood and in general the bio film that comes with a new tank. I'm most concerned about the otos being healthy and well fed so I'll bee buying some zucchini next week. Can I bother you for some cooking instructions of the Zucchini?


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## nbgolds (Aug 21, 2018)

Fish zucchini: I just cut mine in half lengthwise, then cut out the middle part with seeds and discard (the fish don’t eat them and they get everywhere). Slice into desired size, and drop pieces into boiling water for 2 minutes. Use slotted spoon to transfer pieces into a bowl of ice water to stop cooking, and let cool for a few minutes. Dab dry pieces with paper towel, and arrange in single layer in cookie sheet, and freeze. Transfer frozen pieces to freezer storage bag. That’s it! I give my Otos a new piece every few days, and the nerites love it too. I use a plant weight to keep the zucchini pieces on the bottom of the tank.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

nbgolds said:


> Fish zucchini: I just cut mine in half lengthwise, then cut out the middle part with seeds and discard (the fish don’t eat them and they get everywhere). Slice into desired size, and drop pieces into boiling water for 2 minutes. Use slotted spoon to transfer pieces into a bowl of ice water to stop cooking, and let cool for a few minutes. Dab dry pieces with paper towel, and arrange in single layer in cookie sheet, and freeze. Transfer frozen pieces to freezer storage bag. That’s it! I give my Otos a new piece every few days, and the nerites love it too. I use a plant weight to keep the zucchini pieces on the bottom of the tank.


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## kaldurak (May 2, 2010)

RollaPrime said:


>



Rofl!


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

I consider myself semi tech savi but I cameras home screen is a bombardment of settings. 

The aquarium is a lot less cloudy today than it was prior to me adding the filtered media. I'm using auto setting and hopefully I will get better at taking pictures asap. There are some tutorials on youtube I need to watch...


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

That's a really good looking start to a tank! 

One note - as the plants grow in the rocks are likely going to disappear. But most people slowly remove a lot of the hardscape they originally started with in favour of more floor space anyway, so it'll probably sort itself out in the end


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I have a school of 100 green neons and a school of 75 green fire tetras. It's a 150 gallon The tank is everything I've ever wanted. I've done neons, cardinals, lemons, pritillas, and numerous other groups in my 150
In my 75 gallon German blue Ram tank I have 15 Rummynose and 45-50 bloodfins as well as 10 Celebes Rainbows. 
I will strongly suggest you contact Aquatic Clarity. Excellent prices on incredible fish...I did not lose a single one. If you want I'll post a pic.of my tank when I walk by... it is legitimately a show stopper. I've got 2 Peacock gudgeons, 2 Bolivian Rams and 3 Thomasi cichlids along with 2 ABN plecos and a group of 10 syno lucipinnis. It really Amazing
Decide what you want for sure and order fro. Aquatic Clarity or CoralBandit for Rams and such. 
My last suggestion is to get a properly sized UV sterilizer. I lost hundreds of neons before I hooked up the sterilizer. No more issues.
I guess I missed it... how big is the tank? I'm working on a 265 that's going to be GBR'S and discus...and an undecided tetra. Maybe wadai..


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> I have a school of 100 green neons and a school of 75 green fire tetras. It's a 150 gallon The tank is everything I've ever wanted. I've done neons, cardinals, lemons, pritillas, and numerous other groups in my 150
> In my 75 gallon German blue Ram tank I have 15 Rummynose and 45-50 bloodfins as well as 10 Celebes Rainbows.
> I will strongly suggest you contact Aquatic Clarity. Excellent prices on incredible fish...I did not lose a single one. If you want I'll post a pic.of my tank when I walk by... it is legitimately a show stopper. I've got 2 Peacock gudgeons, 2 Bolivian Rams and 3 Thomasi cichlids along with 2 ABN plecos and a group of 10 syno lucipinnis. It really Amazing
> Decide what you want for sure and order fro. Aquatic Clarity or CoralBandit for Rams and such.
> ...


 Did I read discus? 
Good choice! And, of course Wadai are a beautiful characin. 



I wish I had some fry for you, but my discus are taking some time off from spawning. 

But, you can get some from Poppa, his discus are always spawning.
Im supposed to get some Piwow grow-outs soon from him.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

MCFC said:


> That's a really good looking start to a tank!
> 
> One note - as the plants grow in the rocks are likely going to disappear. But most people slowly remove a lot of the hardscape they originally started with in favour of more floor space anyway, so it'll probably sort itself out in the end


I can see that happening in due course. I'm not sure where I'll put them due to the scape but I definitely want more buces. For now I'm just monitoring for any potential imbalances. 







The Dude1 said:


> I have a school of 100 green neons and a school of 75 green fire tetras. It's a 150 gallon The tank is everything I've ever wanted. I've done neons, cardinals, lemons, pritillas, and numerous other groups in my 150
> In my 75 gallon German blue Ram tank I have 15 Rummynose and 45-50 bloodfins as well as 10 Celebes Rainbows.
> I will strongly suggest you contact Aquatic Clarity. Excellent prices on incredible fish...I did not lose a single one. If you want I'll post a pic.of my tank when I walk by... it is legitimately a show stopper. I've got 2 Peacock gudgeons, 2 Bolivian Rams and 3 Thomasi cichlids along with 2 ABN plecos and a group of 10 syno lucipinnis. It really Amazing
> Decide what you want for sure and order fro. Aquatic Clarity or CoralBandit for Rams and such.
> ...


I have been reading through your journal since I signed up. You've posted a ton of info about each so for me, it's been really helpful especially the Bloodfins. And yes, please post the pic if and when you can.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

RollaPrime said:


> I can see that happening in due course. I'm not sure where I'll put them due to the scape but I definitely want more buces. For now I'm just monitoring for any potential imbalances.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll try to get some today. The bloodfins are super active and they are very hardy. They do jump though. Additionally bloodfins look really cool with Rummynose. Of course Rummynose can be difficult to acclimate and like neons, green neons, and cardinals they must come from a high quality source. 
Have you seen green fire tetras yet? Very similar to bloodfins, but more red on the belly and they develop a pastel green color in the upper areas

I really dont think you can go wrong with green neons.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

I have found the root cause of the cloudiness...

After some reading about the cloudiness I got slightly worried about it being related to my bacteria colony. Apparently if it is an imbalance a water change wouldn't solve the issue and could potential make it worse. I carried out a 90% WC and then a 50% WC the next day. For the next two days I had really clear water in comparison to what it had been and could even see the plants pearling after 5 hours (more on that later.)

I added the Easylife Profitto fertilizer after lights out and checked the tank 30 minutes later and boom... The water was/is really cloudy again. I'm unsure of what action to take here? I should mention that I overdose the seachem prime due to my water source being heavily chlorinated. But I'm not certain that's related. 

Now that I know it's the Profitto I'm worried about leaving excess ferts in the tank and what that could potentially lead to.







The Dude1 said:


> I'll try to get some today. The bloodfins are super active and they are very hardy. They do jump though. Additionally bloodfins look really cool with Rummynose. Of course Rummynose can be difficult to acclimate and like neons, green neons, and cardinals they must come from a high quality source.
> Have you seen green fire tetras yet? Very similar to bloodfins, but more red on the belly and they develop a pastel green color in the upper areas
> 
> I really dont think you can go wrong with green neons.


I've only seen bloodfins once in person. It was reading through your journal and being reminded of how elegant they looked that put them on the short list. Unfortunately for me my not so local LFS' are not the best standards so i'm looking into mail ordering some species for online stores with good reputations. That or wait for an LFS to get new stock and pick them up the day they go from quarantine to display.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Today's delivery Cryptocoryne Undulatas Red and a regulator/solenoid combo from CO2 Supermarket. 


















I'll finally be able to set and control the CO2 bubble rate. Baby steps I guess.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Baby steps are good. Wish I had a dollar for each one I have taken! Likely would not need any Lottery tickets, LOL


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Immortal1 said:


> Baby steps are good. Wish I had a dollar for each one I have taken! Likely would not need any Lottery tickets, LOL


Indeed. My ferts are causing a lot of clouding in my aquarium so that's the next baby step. I have some seachem flourish on the way so I'm hoping the smaller, more frequent, dosing as opposed to one large amount helps address the issue.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

RollaPrime said:


> Indeed. My ferts are causing a lot of clouding in my aquarium so that's the next baby step. I have some seachem flourish on the way so I'm hoping the smaller, more frequent, dosing as opposed to one large amount helps address the issue.


What exactly is everything you are dosing? Curious what might be causing cloudiness.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Grobbins48 said:


> What exactly is everything you are dosing? Curious what might be causing cloudiness.


Hey Grobbins

I'm dosing Easylife Profito. To begin with I didn't realize the correlation between the fert and cloudiness. With the tank being newly setup and no mature media in the filter, I figured that was the root cause. But after adding the mature media a few days later, and the bloom persisting, I did a 100% WC and watched it for the next few days. The clouding was slight and I attributed that to the FX6 since the canister holds about 80L. But in comparison it looked almost crystal clear.

I then redosed the Profito and checked back 30 minutes later and the aquarium looked almost milky. An absolute haze. And I realized it was the fert. The dose requires 10ml per 100ml. once per week. I dosed 40ml. 

My theory is the seachem prime is reacting with the ferts.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

RollaPrime said:


> Hey Grobbins
> 
> I'm dosing Easylife Profito. To begin with I didn't realize the correlation between the fert and cloudiness. With the tank being newly setup and no mature media in the filter, I figured that was the root cause. But after adding the mature media a few days later, and the bloom persisting, I did a 100% WC and watched it for the next few days. The clouding was slight and I attributed that to the FX6 since the canister holds about 80L. But in comparison it looked almost crystal clear.
> 
> ...



Have not heard of that product so I did a little looking...

*Advantages of Easy-Life ProFito*


Highly concentrated, all-in-one, universal plant food
All the necessary nutrients in a single product, such as iron, potassium and manganese
Strong, healthy and lush plant growth
Promotes the production of cytokinins, which stimulates the division of cells
Produces wider leaves and intense colours
Improves and consolidates the biological balance in the aquarium
Contains no nitrates or phosphates
Extremely economical to use

The one thing that jumps out to me is the second to last line - Contains no nitrates or phosphates. Curious, thats the main 2 macros that I dose (and spend time adjusting).

Guess the one thing I was looking for is if it has something like Calcium. When I have dosed Equilibrium, my water went cloudy pretty quick.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Immortal1 said:


> Have not heard of that product so I did a little looking...
> 
> *Advantages of Easy-Life ProFito*
> 
> ...


Here in the UK we are rated as having the worst water in Europe. I think the average glass of water is recycled 10+ times and with that comes a lot of Nitrate and Phosphates from the tap. In an effort to balance the aquarium I've avoided those two ferts in my dosing regime.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

RollaPrime said:


> Here in the UK we are rated as having the worst water in Europe. I think the average glass of water is recycled 10+ times and with that comes a lot of Nitrate and Phosphates from the tap. In an effort to balance the aquarium I've avoided those two ferts in my dosing regime.


That is quite interesting. Have you tested the water parameters from the tap to see your levels of NO3 and PO4? If so, are they constant or do they vary through the year?

I would be curious to know the paramaters and levels, if possible.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

RollaPrime said:


> Here in the UK we are rated as having the worst water in Europe. I think the average glass of water is recycled 10+ times and with that comes a lot of Nitrate and Phosphates from the tap. In an effort to balance the aquarium I've avoided those two ferts in my dosing regime.


I wouldn't be so sure you won't need some N and P.

Sometimes when folks rely on tap water or fish load for nutrients, doesn't work out in the long run. 

Just saying, keep an open mind. Once you get going a bit more, you might try dosing some N & P for a week or two and see what happens. You might be surprised.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Grobbins48 said:


> That is quite interesting. Have you tested the water parameters from the tap to see your levels of NO3 and PO4? If so, are they constant or do they vary through the year?
> 
> I would be curious to know the paramaters and levels, if possible.


Indeed. I have an API test for both. My nitrates are 10-20ppm and somtimes higher in the warmer months. My phosphate is high too but I don't remember the exact ppm. I remember a post by Tom Barr where he was pictured adding a cup of nitrate to his aquarium with no detrimental affect and while, I'd never disagree with his finding I've found that in my own experience with this London/UK water source, whenever I've allowed the plants to absorb Phos and Nitrates from the tap without any additional added via ferts, I've been able to keep algae at bay.

Even when other things are going wrong, keeping those two macros in check has helped. That said, I plan to add a large school of tetras soon so my nitrates will spike. I'm oping that the large plant mass and 50% weekly water change will keep any issues in check.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Greggz said:


> I wouldn't be so sure you won't need some N and P.
> 
> Sometimes when folks rely on tap water or fish load for nutrients, doesn't work out in the long run.
> 
> Just saying, keep an open mind. Once you get going a bit more, you might try dosing some N & P for a week or two and see what happens. You might be surprised.



Hi Greggz

Wise words as always. I am monitoring the plant growth, especially deficiencies. I am "surprised" by the plant growth I'm getting with both the Hygrophila Araguaia and Hygrophila pinnatifida. I've never had the Araguaia growth this fast or this red. The Pinnatifida isn't showing any pinholes yet, new growth is orange and the plant is pearling...

So the fert is really good. But I still need to tinker with some things. Hopefully the flourish (being a seachem product) wont react as badly. That, or I can adjust the seachem prime dosage and use the profito.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

RollaPrime said:


> Indeed. I have an API test for both. My nitrates are 10-20ppm and somtimes higher in the warmer months. My phosphate is high too but I don't remember the exact ppm. I remember a post by Tom Barr where he was pictured adding a cup of nitrate to his aquarium with no detrimental affect and while, I'd never disagree with his finding I've found that in my own experience with this London/UK water source, whenever I've allowed the plants to absorb Phos and Nitrates from the tap without any additional added via ferts, I've been able to keep algae at bay.
> 
> Even when other things are going wrong, keeping those two macros in check has helped. That said, I plan to add a large school of tetras soon so my nitrates will spike. I'm oping that the large plant mass and 50% weekly water change will keep any issues in check.



Very interesting info regarding your tap water. Always interesting to hear how different "water" can be depending on where you live. 

Where I live, there is a huge farming community. As such, there is a lot of farm chemicals that drain from the fields and eventually end up in the Mississippi river. Which, coincidentally is where our tap water originates. Nitrate is an issue - but not to the level of your tap water. Curious, do you know your GH & KH levels?


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Immortal1 said:


> Very interesting info regarding your tap water. Always interesting to hear how different "water" can be depending on where you live.
> 
> Where I live, there is a huge farming community. As such, there is a lot of farm chemicals that drain from the fields and eventually end up in the Mississippi river. Which, coincidentally is where our tap water originates. Nitrate is an issue - but not to the level of your tap water. Curious, do you know your GH & KH levels?


Apparently the best water in the UK is in Scotland... The only thing good about my tap water is that the PH is consistent...

I'm curious, what steps do you take to adjust for the added nutrients. I have either the KH or GH reading available. I'm not sure which exactly, just that the api Phosphate test can also give you a reading of one. My TDS was 480. Making the sourcing of shrimp limited to London born and bred. Any from outside the city with lower tds would rarely survive the first molt. MY TDS now is 340 (ish)


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

Just read over your whole post after being gone for a weekend and it's funny how there's a bunch of threads I follow with a TON of updates. Anyways, back to my reason for posting. Have you looked into DIY fertilization? With larger tanks it's a much more cost effective method of dosing fertilizers. Greggz has a post about his DIY micro's that I've since copied and is part of Burr740's "roll your own" fertz. Then of course also dosing Macro's as needed based on your tap water.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

chayos00 said:


> Just read over your whole post after being gone for a weekend and it's funny how there's a bunch of threads I follow with a TON of updates. Anyways, back to my reason for posting. Have you looked into DIY fertilization? With larger tanks it's a much more cost effective method of dosing fertilizers. Greggz has a post about his DIY micro's that I've since copied and is part of Burr740's "roll your own" fertz. Then of course also dosing Macro's as needed based on your tap water.


I have read up and used EI dosing before. While getting back into the swing of things I found myself taking notes on Greggz dosing regime in particular. I plan to move to that method of dosing eventually. Right now, I'm just monitoring the aquarium. After an unusual delay Amazon finally delivered my bottle of seachem flourish today and if everything stabilizes I could adopt that method when the sechem is depleted. My main concern and worry is tackling the cloudiness and hoping it doesn't reappear. 



Seachem's dosing requires 9ML for my tank where as the Profito required 45ML so I'm still in a fingers crossed / baby steps situation. Water change tomorrow. Dosing on Sunday.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

I've been battling three algae types over the past few months, Staghorn, BBA, and Green slime. But I can see "some" light at the end of the tunnel. I've dealt with the BBA but the other two are a little persistent. I've focused more on maintaining the plants I have as opposed to expanding and creating the best scape possible. 

I've lost a few plants along the way and all of my buceps...

The best thing thus far is that the research I put into keeping a Male betta splenden as part of a community paid off. It works and I can't wait to share my experiences on that front. I just wanted to say "hi" to the community. Let you know that I still need your help and expertise and also Merry Christmas.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

I dealt with the algae and got things back on track. I started to slowly replace my beloved buces' and slowly but surely got rid of the algae. My algae was mainly due to a light issue in that I had too much on the tank with too long a photo period. Truth be told I was just happy to be back in the hobby, despite the mishaps, after such a long break. But recently and very unexpectedly, I fell head over heals for a discus I saw in my lfs. To the point where I almost bought it on impulse. Despite not knowing anything about the species except for the fact that they're from the cichlidae group. 

In short, things have changed since my last post. In terms of a planted scape, I've had to remove a lot of plants that weren't compatible with discus temperature range. I did a lot of reading just to get to grips with the basics and then a lot more reading because I wanted to start out with a planted tank. 

Side note: 99.9% of the interactions I had about discus setups were based on the notion that I had to keep them in a bare bottom tank, but more on that at a later date. 

My photo skills are still lacking but I've been taking decent video clips and hope to make an update vid soon. For now here's a few pics as they start to color up.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Nice post! It will be fun to learn more from your discus transition. I know very little about them!


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Grobbins48 said:


> Nice post! It will be fun to learn more from your discus transition. I know very little about them!


Thanks Grobbins. 



I'm hoping it all goes well with this transition to discus. @Discusluv was a great help as were others in terms of crucial info. 



One early tip I can give with some confidence is don't fret about discus not eating. After mine were shipped it took the 5 days before they finally decided to eat something. I bought about 7 different types of foods from New Life Spectrum to Ocean Nutrition and the old faithful Tetra line of foods. I haven't used tetra for years because of how quickly it clouds the water and the ingredients containing a lot of ash. But after 5 days of me fretting seeing them finally eat tetra foods damn near had me jumping for joy. In fact, I think I danced a little. 

The goal now is to get them onto better foods with better ingredients and a good protein source. They're eating more aggressively with each passing day.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Nice discus. Bright eyed, nicely shaped for juveniles, and good eye to body ratio. 

See the little black peppering that is on the finnage? This peppering is particular to pigeon -bloods and is more accentuated by being over a dark substrate. Just like many other fish, there coloration alters to "blend in" with the colors around them. Peppering doesn't bother me in the small amount your fish are displaying, but you may find as they get larger that you would rather not accentuate this color response and put in a neutral colored substrate.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Discusluv said:


> *Nice discus. Bright eyed, nicely shaped for juveniles, and good eye to body ratio. *
> 
> See the little black peppering that is on the finnage? This peppering is particular to pigeon -bloods and is more accentuated by being over a dark substrate. Just like many other fish, there coloration alters to "blend in" with the colors around them. Peppering doesn't bother me in the small amount your fish are displaying, but you may find as they get larger that you would rather not accentuate this color response and put in a neutral colored substrate.


I was really worried about the shape and eye clarity before they arrived. 5 of them have a rounder shape, the 6th has more of a diagonal shape but I'm told this can change as the juvies grow over time. I have a painted black background as well as the dark substrate but the peppering doesn't bother me at all. I've seen it being referred to as "ugly" but for me personally I think it's quite cute. Also, I read that with the right diet and care their natural/strain color will mitigate any peppering.

Before getting them I didn't think that 6 of the same strain would be easy to id individually, but that isn't the case. So far we have given two of them names. "Pringle" and "Flare."


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## MichaelBrock (May 31, 2011)

What a great thread! Discus is one of the few "major players" that I haven't actually kept myself at some point.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Hey @MichaelBrock Welcome to the forum. I appreciate your kind words.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

I need to preface the following by both stating and stressing that I believe that any amount of ammonia is unacceptable for all fauna we keep in our aquariums...

Over the past two weeks I have been keeping a close eye on my water parameters. Being new to discus the first thing I learned/was told is that they need pristine conditions to thrive. Most seem to achieve this with frequent water changes. I've even conversed with Discus keepers who change 50% daily. Personally, I don't have time to do 50% daily WC so figured out early on that a diet of beef heart, *THE* recommended food for discus would best be avoided and replaced with more processed food like flakes and pellets.

I moved from feeding one type of food to my previous planted tank, to purchasing 8 other different types of fish food. Because for 5 days straight, my new discus turned their noses up at everything I tried to feed them and every day I'd fret over their refusal to eat and then purchase some other foods via amazon prime. Trying to throw something at them until they smelled something in the water they couldn't resist. Thankfully now they eat everything I feed with gusto but through monitoring the parameters daily I realized I was getting small spikes in ammonia. Spikes that would pop up after about 3 hours and then disappear within an 1/2 hours. The spike would be from 0ppm ammonia to 0.25ppm ammonia so nothing drastic but frequent enough to cause concern. I had to get to the bottom of this and so over the long bank holiday weekend here in the UK, I tested my tank every 3rd hours or so and found something I think others may find interesting. 

Day 1: Ammonia 0ppm Nitrite 0ppm - All day
Day 2: Ammonia 0ppm Nitrite 0ppm (Before 1st feed) Ammonia *0.25ppm* Nitrite 0ppm (3 hours after first feed) Ammonia 0ppm Nitrite 0ppm - Rest of the day
Day 3: Ammonia 0ppm Nitrite 0ppm (1st and 2nd feed) Ammonia *0.25ppm* Nitrite 0ppm (3 hours after 3rd feed) Ammonia 0ppm Nitrite 0ppm - Rest of the night
Day 4: Ammonia 0ppm Nitrite 0ppm (Before 1st feed) Ammonia *0.25ppm* Nitrite 0ppm (3 hours after 2nd feed) Ammonia 0ppm Nitrite 0ppm - Rest of the day

Although at a glance this 0.25ppm spike in ammonia appears randomly. And although I was convinced that the spike had to with something in the tank, I was also writing down what food I had fed them and at what time. It wasn't until day 4 I found the root cause: *New Life Spectrum Flake*

I have been feeding them a mix of foods.









Including other NLS foods (Thera A and Discus.) But for some reason adding NLS Flake was akin to dosing ammonia. Again, they eat everything with vigor but it appears that when it comes to NLS flake, they're not absorbing or digesting it in the same way and passing most of it as waste leading to the temporary spikes. And to me, that's a shocking discovery because I've always held NLS flake as the best flake food on the market due to the ingredients and vitamins it contains.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Very interesting bit of research @RollaPrime


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Immortal1 said:


> Very interesting bit of research @*RollaPrime*


In terms of possible causes of the mini spikes, my mind went everywhere except the food. It was only by comparing the spikes and what was being fed that I stumbled upon the cause.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Test you tap water, API kit is difficult to distinguish between 0 and 0.25ppm NH4 false positives abound.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

I've been looking into this peppering debate and I'm starting to wonder if it's as pronounced on fully coloured up adult fish as it is on juveniles? Wherever they're showing peppering, particularly on their bodies seems to dissappear as the white and red pattern become more pronounced. Also They have started to put on weight :grin2: 

They're still roughly the same size lengthwise but there's a lot more width / chunkiness to them. 
































cl3537 said:


> Test you tap water, API kit is difficult to distinguish between 0 and 0.25ppm NH4 false positives abound.



Hey cl3537

I used my other aquarium and tap to compare with each test and there was definitely a distinct difference.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Fish food has Ammonia in it, ths is nothing new, reading depend on where you are pulling your sample from in the tank. But if Ammonia persists from your previous feeding (like 8 - 12 hours before) you are likely feeding too much or had recently increased the amount. I prefer Vibra Bites over flakes and so do my fish, its a lot more like live foods for fussy eaters and doesn't dissolve before the fish get it.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

cl3537 said:


> Fish food has Ammonia in it, ths is nothing new, reading depend on where you are pulling your sample from in the tank. But if Ammonia persists from your previous feeding (like 8 - 12 hours before) you are likely feeding too much or had recently increased the amount. I prefer Vibra Bites over flakes and so do my fish, its a lot more like live foods for fussy eaters and doesn't dissolve before the fish get it.


The spike was from 0ppm to 0.25ppm. The spike would show up a few hours after feeding and then disappear after an hour or two. So it wasn't overfeeding. Truth be told I haven't overfed since I first saw planaria back in the late 2000's. There's a clear correlation between the specific food and a spike. 

Since cutting NLS (Flake) out of their diet I haven't had a spike so I'm confident in the findings. Also, I feed other foods which have a much higher protein percentage in comparison to NLS and they didn't cause a spike.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

RollaPrime said:


> Day 1: Ammonia 0ppm Nitrite 0ppm - All day
> Day 2: Ammonia 0ppm Nitrite 0ppm (Before 1st feed) Ammonia *0.25ppm* Nitrite 0ppm (3 hours after first feed) Ammonia 0ppm Nitrite 0ppm - Rest of the day
> Day 3: Ammonia 0ppm Nitrite 0ppm (1st and 2nd feed) Ammonia *0.25ppm* Nitrite 0ppm (3 hours after 3rd feed) Ammonia 0ppm Nitrite 0ppm - Rest of the night
> *Day 4: Ammonia 0ppm Nitrite 0ppm (Before 1st feed) Ammonia 0.25ppm Nitrite 0ppm (3 hours after 2nd feed) Ammonia 0ppm Nitrite 0ppm - Rest of the day
> ...


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

cl3537 said:


> RollaPrime said:
> 
> 
> > Day 1: Ammonia 0ppm Nitrite 0ppm - All day
> ...


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

RollaPrime said:


> Not "some" foods just "one" specific food: New Life Spectrum Flake. I have 8 different types which the discus gobble without hesitation. But New Life Spectrum flake causes a spike from 0ppm to 0.25ppm It lasts for a or two and then returns to 0ppm.


Heavier planting and stronger BB will remove it faster, but of course you don't have to use that food.
Use it again in a week to see if you can reproduce the Ammonia readings.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I have used New Life Spectrum for many years- the discus specific food is excellent. Actually, all my fish get New Life Spectrum because its one of the best prepared foods on the market: nutritionally balanced, highest quality ingredients and utilizes a low-fat protein for cichlids like discus that need it specifically for healthy growth and building of immune system. No ammonia spikes detected, but, then again, when I grow out discus that are your size I do daily water changes so dont bother with testing water.

But, that said, my discus are not fed this exclusively. I also feed a mixture of frozen and freeze-dried foods in combination with prepared.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Here is one of the most comprehensive articles on fish nutrition that I have ever read. It was done by company that sells New Life Spectrum, but the claims are backed up by peer-review research. Take a look:

http://nlsfishfood.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Nutrition-Article.pdf


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Discusluv said:


> I have used New Life Spectrum for many years- the discus specific food is excellent. Actually, all my fish get New Life Spectrum because its one of the best prepared foods on the market: nutritionally balanced, highest quality ingredients and utilizes a low-fat protein for cichlids like discus that need it specifically for healthy growth and building of immune system. No ammonia spikes detected, but, then again, when I grow out discus that are your size I do daily water changes so dont bother with testing water.
> 
> But, that said, my discus are not fed this exclusively. I also feed a mixture of frozen and freeze-dried foods in combination with prepared.


Indeed. It's a food I swear by. It transformed the colour of all my apistos. I had 3 pairs at the time and despite them all being several years old within 2 weeks of introducing it they damn near sparkled. Taking your earlier advice in the discus thread I wanted to include the food as part of their diet. The NLS Thera A and NLS discus all go down a treat but for whatever reason, they don't seem to be digesting "The NLS Flake" in the same way. 



The spike, as annoying as they were, didn't worry me too much because they were never sustained. It'd show up and then leave within 2 hours. My theory is that the juveniles are just not used to it and it passes through them partially digested. Akin to me adding food to the tank that just sits there.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

So it looks like I'm going to have to address this peppering "issue." To begin with it wasn't an issue for me but I've seen that as they grow older it distorts their coloration completely so I'm going to have to address it. Problem is I'm not sure what to do and my background is spray painted black. 

: (


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

RollaPrime said:


> Problem is I'm not sure what to do and my background is spray painted black.


A razor blade takes the paint off the back very easily on a glass tank. My first paint job on the back of my tank had a bit of a leak and bubbled the paint, so I had to redo it.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

chayos00 said:


> A razor blade takes the paint off the back very easily on a glass tank. My first paint job on the back of my tank had a bit of a leak and bubbled the paint, so I had to redo it.


Hey Chayos. I think I'm going to leave the background as it is and plant a wall of vall to "cover it up" so to speak. These beasties produce a lot of waste that pushes my nitrates and the val should eat into that. I didn't consider a rasor blade but I'll buy a few just in case the initial plan doesn't work. Thank for the advice. 




@Discusluv @discuspaul I'm noticing some really strange behavior. As you know my discus are juvies but one has taken to a large anubias and refuses to let anyone near it. I believe she's female in fact I'm 99.9% sure after I saw her breeding tube, a tiny triangle, after a water change. She is too small to spawn and there has been no courtship but if any of the other 5 come near it she'll chase them around the tank and she is dar from the biggest in the tank but her aggression about and around this plant is strange.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Very strange behavior that's new to me - I've never seen or heard of behavior like that from a discus - a complete mystery. Let us know if it continues for any length of time.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

I don't think I've ever had this much fun in the hobby. My journey with apistos started shortly after I started to understand the biology of a planted tank. To me, they were so full of personality but they pale in comparison to discus. I'm in absolute awe to the point where they actually featured, briefly, in a dream I had recently :grin2:

The downside is that they don't seem to like my neons. They actively hunt and bite them. In a month I've lost between 8-10 cardinals which is annoying because I was told cardinals are good dithers for discus but they're slowly eliminating the school. I caught some of this on camera...





discuspaul said:


> Very strange behavior that's new to me - I've never seen or heard of behavior like that from a discus - a complete mystery. Let us know if it continues for any length of time.


It's been over a week. She bullies every other discus who dares go near it while she's there. Being as experienced as you are with this species, the following will probably sound weird to you, that said, I think she's practicing spawning. Not the actual act of spawning more so keeping others away from her designated leafs of choice. Again, it's only around this specific plant that she displays the aggression.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Well, that's still very strange, imo.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

I didn't know it at the time but this was an early sign that my aquarium was about to collapse.





RollaPrime said:


> @*Discusluv* @*discuspaul* I'm noticing some really strange behavior. As you know my discus are juvies but one has taken to a large anubias and refuses to let anyone near it. I believe she's female in fact I'm 99.9% sure after I saw her breeding tube, a tiny triangle, after a water change. She is too small to spawn and there has been no courtship but if any of the other 5 come near it she'll chase them around the tank and she is dar from the biggest in the tank but her aggression about and around this plant is strange.




Three of my five discus died over the next few days. And I have to admit that I was completely and utterly devastated. I mean, I've been in this hobby for years and during that time I (like most of you) have lost the odd fish or two. Bad source/practices at my LFS. Some tetras due to fighting and some neons due to white spot. Early on, I inadvertently caused the death of an apisto pair by changing my acclimation process from plop and drop, to trying out drip acclimation without realizing the reaction that goes on inside the bag once opened. But nothing like this.



I had never experienced a full on tank collapse. My confidence was absolutely knocked out out of me to the point where I started second guessing everything I was doing. But that wasn't enough to put a halt to whatever was going on. My parameters were exactly where I wanted them to be. 0ppm, 0ppm, 10ppm. The discus themselves and no visible signs of ill health. I treated for every possible affliction know to affect discus but still that wasn't enough. Truth be told, I _almost_ gave up. I went from instantly falling for this species after seeing them for the first time, researching, purchasing, and then losing my beloved beasties to some unknown but very persistent and egregious illness/pathogen. It's also very embarrassing to post what has transpired, here, among my hobbyist peers so to speak. 

I reviewed every note I had taken in the short time I had them and not for lack of trying, couldn't find the issue. I spent many late nights watching vids of other people's "sick discus" and reading through similar threads desperately seeking some type of correlation. The conundrum was made even more difficult by the fact that every other species in the tank was in tip top condition. Eventually I came to the conclusion that my quarantine procedure was perhaps inadequate and so I decided to try again.


My other half, was less than impressed! She told me that losing £150 ($200+) on discus wasn't the best investment I had made (to put it politely) and so it was with some trepidation that I purchased another batch and strain from a different source.

The good news is that the new discus are thriving. They are growing rapidly, growing thick, boisterous, active and full of personality in a way my PB reds never did. Admittedly it took them a week to colour up (during which I was extremely nervous) they remained pale and dark for 6 days but it was an absolutely incredible feeling when the T5 light came on that Sunday and they looked like a completely different species. Going from dark to displaying orange and pink hues. 

The learning curve has been steep. But I have learned a lot over the past few months. I'll admit that I thought twice about sharing this because it is quite embarrassing but even with that said, I signed up to this site to share my experiences within the hobby. And I'm sure... In fact, I'm certain... That through sharing this terrible experience, others can learn from my mistakes. 

Rolla


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

RollaPrime said:


> I didn't know it at the time but this was an early sign that my aquarium was about to collapse.
> 
> Three of my five discus died over the next few days. And I have to admit that I was completely and utterly devastated. I mean, I've been in this hobby for years and during that time I (like most of you) have lost the odd fish or two. Bad source/practices at my LFS. Some tetras due to fighting and some neons due to white spot. Early on, I inadvertently caused the death of an apisto pair by changing my acclimation process from plop and drop, to trying out drip acclimation without realizing the reaction that goes on inside the bag once opened. But nothing like this.
> 
> ...


I think at some point in time we've all been there. I know when I first stocked my 125g, I lost half of my initial stocking. I now have 4 20g tanks for QTing new fish. I don't go any less than 30 days now, and if they display any issues during the time I've upped it to two months before. Sucks that you weren't able to figure out what the actual issues were with the fish! Glad to hear things are going well now!!


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

chayos00 said:


> I think at some point in time we've all been there. I know when I first stocked my 125g, I lost half of my initial stocking. I now have 4 20g tanks for QTing new fish. I don't go any less than 30 days now, and if they display any issues during the time I've upped it to two months before. Sucks that you weren't able to figure out what the actual issues were with the fish! Glad to hear things are going well now!!


I appreciate your kind and encouraging words @chayos00

I wasn't able to definitively say "the loss was due to X/Y/Z" But despite the bad experience I have learned a few things. Namely how to spot an illness in discus by eye and take the necessary steps according to their symptoms. Despite the research I had done prior to receiving them, in practice I wasn't able to "see" the tell tale signs back then. Especially when the rest of the stocking is courting and spawning. During this episode my corys spawned frequently, as did my rams, and cardinals would court/display daily. 

The good news is I now have 8 Blue Diamonds. 5 in the main tank and 3 currently going through QTing. The difference between this batch and the first is staggering. So much so that my other half is convinced that they (The PBs) must have arrived in poor health because the behaviors between the two couldn't be more of a contrast. My PBs were subdued. The Blue Diamonds are boisterous, rowdy, not shy of conflict, and spend a great deal of time flaring/displaying at each other... 

But I'll get to that via some pics and vids when I update the journal properly.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

RollaPrime said:


> But I'll get to that via some pics and vids when I update the journal properly.


Very sorry to hear about the losses.

As you know, I am feeling the same pain right now. 

Looking forward to seeing pics/vids of the new arrivals.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Greggz said:


> Very sorry to hear about the losses.
> 
> As you know, I am feeling the same pain right now.
> 
> Looking forward to seeing pics/vids of the new arrivals.


Indeed. I keep checking your journal hoping to see where things land in terms of a definitive cause. As you know I love your aquariums and pics. As for my update, I have already signed up to filmora editing software. As soon as the QT process is finished I'll update with pics of everything and at least 1 vid.

I appreciate your support as always.


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## Dfeagley6 (Oct 22, 2017)

RollaPrime said:


> I didn't know it at the time but this was an early sign that my aquarium was about to collapse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow, this post gives me flashbacks, but unfortunately these things happen to everybody. I've lost discus, and 1 recently. It's hard to talk about. My regret is waiting too long to take action. I let my royal blue discus stay in the main tank while he was obviously having problems for 3-4 weeks. I thought with bi-weekly water changes and treating with paraguard, he would recover since he was a very strong/healthy/active fish in my tank for 2 years. He was still somewhat active and he would eat, but he hid most of the day. One morning I woke up and he was laying against the intake filter. I immediately setup a hospital tank, moved him into it, and started treating with stronger medications. Unfortunately, he died 2 days later. If I would have moved him into the hospital tank sooner, he would probably still be alive today. To sum it up, my advice would be not to let an illness take too much of a toll on before taking action. 
Sorry for your loss, but don't let it get you down. We learn from our mistakes.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Dfeagley6 said:


> Wow, this post gives me flashbacks, but unfortunately these things happen to everybody. I've lost discus, and 1 recently. It's hard to talk about. My regret is waiting too long to take action. I let my royal blue discus stay in the main tank while he was obviously having problems for 3-4 weeks. I thought with bi-weekly water changes and treating with paraguard, he would recover since he was a very strong/healthy/active fish in my tank for 2 years. He was still somewhat active and he would eat, but he hid most of the day. One morning I woke up and he was laying against the intake filter. I immediately setup a hospital tank, moved him into it, and started treating with stronger medications. Unfortunately, he died 2 days later. If I would have moved him into the hospital tank sooner, he would probably still be alive today. To sum it up, my advice would be not to let an illness take too much of a toll on before taking action.
> Sorry for your loss, but don't let it get you down. We learn from our mistakes.


Thanks @Dfeagley6

The learning curve is steep with this species but as you know, very rewarding. If I could do things differently, I would have spent more time researching discus behavior instead of (or alongside) what I need to keep them and how to keep them. From your post above I think we've both learned to be more proactive. But I'm still sorry for your loss and what you went through.

As fellow discus keepers hopefully we can share our experience and bounce ideas of each other. When I said your planted tank gave me pause for thought, I really meant it.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Nowadays my main aim is to lower Nitrates. I'm currently down to 10ppm via two api liquid tests. It's a balancing act and I think the secrete might be leaning heavy into java fern. This is not an update. I'm just trying to get the camera settings correct so that I can get my inner @Greggz esq photography on. Once I get the right settings, I should be able to do a full update. I have learned a ton and have a lot more to share.

These are my eight "Blue Diamonad I" Stendker. The irony is that they are more peach/pink with a splash of yellow more so than they are "Blue." But again I'll be able to show that once I get the camera settings right.

















@Discusluv and @discuspaul I'm not sure how to measure them but each has grown significantly since I got them.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Looking good-- good job! The colors are very pretty. Move from icy blue to pinkish- yellow. But, this could just be the lighting in photo. 
Also, looks like a couple are quite a bit bigger than the others. If so, totally normal. The dominate fish will normally put on more weight sooner than the subordinate fish. 
What have been your procedures?

Feedings daily?
What feeding?
Water changes volume and frequency? 
What have you noticed about interactions between discus? Hierarchy established? Any one fish bullied more then another or are subordinate aggression dispersed throughout group? 
Noticed any early pairing behavior ( not necessary breeding pairs)? Juveniles and sub-adults will often take a liking to one another regardless of sex.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

I appreciate the feedback @Discusluv

They were bought at different sizes. 6-8cm and 4-6cm. One refused to eat for 17 days and another for 4 weeks. Feedings are twice a day, Stendker good beefheart mix and a fish mix recipe I made myself. I would feed 3 times a day but the nitrates build up way to fast that way So I reduced it to twice with a couple of Cory wafers which they go mad for an hour or so before lights out. My tank... Well in terms of parameters it's unbalanced. Ammonia and Nitrite are both 0ppm constantly, but my tap water is 10ppm in nitrate. With 6/9 feedings of meat every 3 days Nitrate jump to 20ppm but coming from the planted aspect of the hobby I'm using plants to keep it at a constant 10ppm.

Water changes are: 
Wednesday and Saturday 120L / 31G 
Sunday 200L / 51G

Interactions: A lot of sparring. Lots and lots and lots of sparring. They're being as true to the teenage/juvi/unruly stage I've read about. There is a "Boss" of the tank. We call him "Bulla" but the most eager to fight is smaller male we call "Starscream" because his focus is Bulla's Alpha/top position but his approach is always underhanded. Attack from the side or behind as opposed to but head on. Face to face, he's unwilling to stand his ground. The sparring is the reason for the Manzi wood in the tank. Comprised of three separate pieces it allows any of the eight to escape any unwanted aggression if they're not in the mood. A quick twist to the left and a turn to the right and the pursuit comes to an end. 

I took some snaps just now but the colour is still not being fully represented because of the camera settings. Speaking of colour... I've noticed that the older they get the more different colours are coming through, One example is that their faces are becoming orange... Truth be told I don't think "Blue Diamond I" is a good description when only 30% of their body looks blue. 

Oh and despite the debate around determining a discus' sex, I really confident that chichlids telegraph their sex once they reach a certain age. But I'll get to that when I update properly.

I have been learning a lot. Way more than I expected too. Anyways here's Bulla:


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Trying to get a FTS. Notice how "Blue" is the least dominant color?


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Aquarium is still chugging along. Wanted to share some growth in the discus because these pics are ok and my photography skills are still lacking. Also the white dots in the cadual are not white spot / ich. From what I'm seeing they appear to be nodes in the tail. As they appeared and then disappeared with 24 hours while the tails get slightly larger, seemingly overnight.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

So I have learned an awful lot since my first foray into discus. So much so that I am now a semi confident Discus keeper. I am thinking of starting a new build /new journal as I return to a planted community. 

What do you guys think about a new journal?


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