# shrimp genetics project



## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

It's not that simple. You are assuming it is controlled by a single gene, but it is actually controlled by multiple genes--think skin color in humans.


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

like lex said i think it is more than one gene that messes with color. soothing has worked a fair bit with diff color morphs and knows the work involved. its alot of time and error and space to try this to keep it all strate


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## mcclure91 (Aug 7, 2011)

this what i figured but want to do the experiment for myself. I know human skin color is a Polygenic trait meaning that multiple genes control the skin tone if this is how shrimp pigmentation is too i guess this is beyond my capabilities of figuring it out. Guess im just used to reptile breeding were the different morphs were either dominant, co dominant, incomplete dominant, or recessive. well thats a bummer


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## mcclure91 (Aug 7, 2011)

Ok this still sparks my interest though because of the way the genes work. For example if you breed a cherry to a yellow neo you get wild looking neos. (no actual experience here but have read this many times on this forum. which makes it act like it is a recessive trait which this is how my thought process started. Where as if it was was a polygenic trait you should get any range of pigmentation as with humans.


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

not quite that simple. might take a few generations to get to wild or it might be first generation that pops up some wilds. from my own shrimp keeping i had pretty nice looking red rili, over time i had a total blue rili pop up dark blue where the red on the head and tail should be and see though blue where the clear should be, i also ended up with a few i called purple rili, tissue had a purple look to it and see though red on the head and tail, and for a long time i got blue rili/blue velvet looking ones. then all of a sudden red and clear rili again and i had a single bright red cherry looking one with green eyes show up that only gave me rili. i never added new stock and all that over the corse of 2 years. i can find a pic of my wild color combos if you want.


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## mcclure91 (Aug 7, 2011)

hmm very interesting I'm just going to half to do more research and try out some of my own experiments


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

mcclure, just because people give the same advice over and over again, doesn't mean it's always true- although it may hold a seed of truth in it.

You have the right idea. Experiment for yourself, think outside the box, and see what you come up with. 

I will say that sometimes colors are located on different loci. And remember that Mendelian genetics covers multiple attempts when it comes to percentages.


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## auban (Jun 23, 2012)

i think there are a LOT of genes that come into play when it comes to shrimp color. looking at them under a microscope, i see different types of chromatophores, each with their own characteristics. if we assume that a separate gene controls each one, then we may be looking at 3-4, maybe even more, completely independent genes. lets say we have 3 different colors: red, brown, and yellow. now, each one is expressed through a chromatophore, which can have a different shape. since the shape can also determine the appearance, it may be another gene that comes into play, and we have no idea if the genes that control shape are different for each color. this would allow for an incredibly complex combination....

for just the red pigments alone, you could have RR, Rr, rr, and for the shape of the red pigments(which also affect how the color is displayed) you may have XX, Xx, and xx. that doesn't even go into the realm of dominance. you can see how it quickly becomes even more complex than human pigments, since there are more of them in shrimp. on top of all this, it seems that a completely different type of gene controls the expression of the color blue, since it does not show up in a conventional chromatophore as the other colors do.

to really understand shrimp genetics, i think you would have to start with one line with wild type genes that produces no mutations, breed for mutations, and breed any further mutations from past mutations. this would ensure that genes that are mutated are not able to be restored, and would, in theory, allow you to build up a pretty good picture of how the genes are displayed. you could then cross breed the newer mutations back to the older ones and look at them under a microscope to see if the gene altered by the newer mutation is restored. it would be a way to verify which traits were mutated, and how they are expressed.

not an easy undertaking...


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

here is a shot when i had all my rili notice all the different colors? and if you want a pic of any one i can try to find that as well so you can see the shrimp closer. also there are crs in the tank so dont let that confuse you if you see one in the pic. and remember all these came from some awsome red and clear rili 











purple and blue/green rili









blue on blue









wine red and blue


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

The holy trinity comes into play- Time, Money, and Space.

The other thing is that many times shrimp are selective bred for intensity of color, not spontaneous mutation. The cherry didn't just show up, it was bred little by little from the wild.


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## mcclure91 (Aug 7, 2011)

all very interesting points my first statement was just a example of the simplest situation which i figured would not be the case. I agree with auban on the only way to really get any idea is to start with the wild type but i find it hard to believe there are many true wild ones at least in the states. Without starting with a true wild caught shrimp you would never know for sure what you are working with.


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## auban (Jun 23, 2012)

mcclure91 said:


> all very interesting points my first statement was just a example of the simplest situation which i figured would not be the case. I agree with auban on the only way to really get any idea is to start with the wild type but i find it hard to believe there are many true wild ones at least in the states. Without starting with a true wild caught shrimp you would never know for sure what you are working with.


in the end it really doesnt matter, as long as you can still mutate what you have, you can still keep a log and cross breed to determine what shows up. 

as for selectively breeding to extenuate an existing trait, that just makes it even more complicated. selective breeding may be affecting many many different genes, and without isolating which ones you are working with, you may never really know how its going to turn out. i think this is what makes it so frustrating when working with new strains. it may well be that some genes have to be disabled to get certain color morphs to breed true.


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## mcclure91 (Aug 7, 2011)

I completely agree and seems like most of these "mutations" are simply just line breed traits not really mutations. When i think of mutations at least in breeding reptiles they are simple genetic mutations like albinism. Which almost all of these mutations in reptiles are very simple and happen in the wild just not often.


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## auban (Jun 23, 2012)

i really need to buy some blue shrimp... i have been thinking for a while that at least some of them don't show any actual chromatophores. if that is the case, then it would be something like albinism. from what i can tell(microscope observations), there are two ways for shrimp to produce the color blue, one is in the body, and one is in iridiphores, cells that collect a lot of guanine in them. the iridiphores are located on the surface of the body, in the "skin" and the body color is of course throughout the body. 

if there was a working chromatophore, you would end up with shrimp that constantly go back and forth between blue and the other color when you try to select for both, since you wouldn't be able to get positive control of either trait. any time you breed to make the blue deeper, the other color goes uncontrolled, etc. this may be what is going on with wicca27s shrimp.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Challenge is that "blue" in the cherry is dealing with at least two types of colorations.

One is the pigment on the shell itself, and the other affects tissue color. My DBVs for instance express both, so do the carbon rilis, and my Sapphire line.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

mcclure91 said:


> I completely agree and seems like most of these "mutations" are simply just line breed traits not really mutations. When i think of mutations at least in breeding reptiles they are simple genetic mutations like albinism. Which almost all of these mutations in reptiles are very simple and happen in the wild just not often.


+1 on the line breed traits. Yellow, blue rili, red cherry for instance are all just line bred for intensity of color.

I have a theory that colors, however, can be on different loci- which would further complicate matters.

An example would be the Albino Leos. Both are albino, but crossing Rainwater with Tremper results in normal offspring, even though both parents were albino.


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## mcclure91 (Aug 7, 2011)

hmmm very interesting this would make this a very big mess if your theroy were to be correct then if anyone ever figures out the gentic code for shrimp it will already be a huge genetic mess. But i do see a possiblity that you are right soothing this would explain why you can be line breed one color and randomly pop up a different. The reason this is extremly frowned apon with leos is because breeders try to sell them with documintaton of there genetics when you cross the albino strains you get all normal that is het for both albino genes and if those babies are breed now you get normals that could carry one or the othere of the strains or both. so by this time you have a dozen or more geckos that all look normal and you have no idea what albino strain they carry


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

So you see what a mess this becomes? LOL Phenotype and genotype may turn out to be totally different.

We already have many people confusing blue rili with BV just because they look the same. LOL


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