# Ticking time bomb? Your paintball ASA on/off setup...



## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Please take a look at the discussion here:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/general-planted-tank-discussion/155384-my-co2-line-exploded.html

Basically, this paintball ASA on/off setup developed a clog (probably at the diffuser), causing pressure to build up until the CO2 line ruptured. The result for the tank was catastrophic. Fortunately, the tank owner was not working with the tank when this happened.

If you have one of these setups (paintball cylinder -> ASA on/off -> needle valve), I would highly suggest that you reconsider your setup. If your line clogs, the pressure in the line will build up until it reaches the 800 psi of the paintball cylinder, or until it ruptures (possibly catastrophically).

Note that this will happen with any needle valve, whether it initially cost $3 or $300.

My suggestion would be to add a regulator between the cylinder and ASA on/off valve. Something like one of these may work:

http://www.armedpaintball.com/paint...s-gauges/87-armed-ag1-gen2-air-regulator.html

I'll be trying a setup like this in the near future and will report back on its success/failure. Another option is a standard regulator with an adapter.

However, for now, do yourself a favor and turn off and disconnect these dangerous systems.

Please note that this is just my opinion. However, I think the facts are on my side and there others in this forum that feel the same way. Good luck!


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## MCHRKiller (Jul 25, 2008)

Taam also sells a full regulator for paintball systems for about $90, using one at home with excellent results. 

I have been mulling over one of these "controllers" for some time, was this issue just caused from using a bubble counter with the fluid? I had no plans of using a bubble counter at all just going with a check valve and a ceramic diffuser. Just how dangerous are these setups?


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

MCHRKiller said:


> Taam also sells a full regulator for paintball systems for about $90, using one at home with excellent results.
> 
> I have been mulling over one of these "controllers" for some time, was this issue just caused from using a bubble counter with the fluid? I had no plans of using a bubble counter at all just going with a check valve and a ceramic diffuser. Just how dangerous are these setups?


If you failed to maintain the diffuser, I imagine that the same thing could happen, or, if the CO2 line became kinked, or you closed the lid on the tubing, etc., etc..

I would just not go there. In the thread above, the CO2 line blew a hole in the aquarium, which emptied its contents on the floor. The individual described a sound like a gunshot. You can judge for yourself.


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## Naekuh (Oct 19, 2011)

yeah i have to agree also... i thought paintball setups were good too, until i got a ear full of yelling from my friend telling me NO, and how important a regulator is. 

lol... i ordered the adapter, and im going to throw on a cheap aquatek regulator on that setup and call it a day.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Naekuh said:


> yeah i have to agree also... i thought paintball setups were good too, until i got a ear full of yelling from my friend telling me NO, and how important a regulator is.
> 
> lol... i ordered the adapter, and im going to throw on a cheap aquatek regulator on that setup and call it a day.


I think paintball setups are just fine, as long as there is an actual regulator on the paintball cylinder. 

I like the compactness of the paintball cylinder. It will fit into locations where a 2.5 lb CO2 tank won't. However, just putting on an ASA on/off valve is asking for disaster. Just buy a cheap regulator ($25-$50) to put on before the ASA on/off and you are fine (or do what you did and use a full size regulator and adapter).


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## MCHRKiller (Jul 25, 2008)

In that case it doesnt seem worth the $50 Id save since this is a pricy acrylic tank....


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## Storm (Aug 7, 2011)

I'm not saying a real regulator isn't a good thing - it definitely is, and the price of an Aquatek for only $60 or so on eBay is probably worth it compared to the $50 for a cheaper paintball setup - but this could probably have been avoided by using the type of fittings where the tubing just fits tightly over a plastic post, rather than being clamped in place by a screw on connector.

That way if you ever end up in the type of scenario where pressure builds up, the tube should just pop off the post, rather than letting the pressure build up until the tube completely explodes.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Storm said:


> I'm not saying a real regulator isn't a good thing - it definitely is, and the price of an Aquatek for only $60 or so on eBay is probably worth it compared to the $50 for a cheaper paintball setup - but this could probably have been avoided by using the type of fittings where the tubing just fits tightly over a plastic post, rather than being clamped in place by a screw on connector.
> 
> That way if you ever end up in the type of scenario where pressure builds up, the tube should just pop off the post, rather than letting the pressure build up until the tube completely explodes.


The tube may pop off, or it may rupture. It depends on how well secured the tube is over the nipple. Why take the chance? Should you depend on the tube magically popping off at any/all connections if the line gets clogged at various points?

You should not really on a system that doesn't explode only if you are lucky.


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## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

eh, i use tank water for my bubble counter and have an inline atomizer, worst that could happen is i lose a couple gallons of water.. If you maintain your equipment, you shouldn't have a problem. I haven't had a single peep from either of my paintball asa setups, they work perfectly, only downside IMO is the o-rings..


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

HolyAngel said:


> eh, i use tank water for my bubble counter and have an inline atomizer, worst that could happen is i lose a couple gallons of water.. If you maintain your equipment, you shouldn't have a problem. I haven't had a single peep from either of my paintball asa setups, they work perfectly, only downside IMO is the o-rings..


Well, good luck. The accident mentioned came on quickly without warning, possibly caused by a diffuser glogged by liquid from a bubble counter. It could have been a kinked hose or any other reason. Let's hope your setup runs smoothly.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

I'm still not buying the bit about the line and diffuser being strong enough to break an aquarium wall. There's no way a line could build up that much pressure to cause a tiny piece of glass to break the tank. (Okay, there's a way, but it's highly unlikely)

Am wondering if a needle valve or a piece of fitting didn't fly into the side of the tank. 

Have had both paintball and DIY Yeast setups explode in various ways. When pressure is involved, the tubing always ruptures or the ceramic diffusers inside the tank are popped off - but never at such a speed that they're dangerous - even with paintball pressures. My yeast rigs rupture tubing (at about 90psi, usually, for some reason) all the time and have had similar accidents with paintball. 

Just skeptical.

(And, no, I'm not a paintball advocate even though I use the setups myself)


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

somewhatshocked said:


> I'm still not buying the bit about the line and diffuser being strong enough to break an aquarium wall. There's no way a line could build up that much pressure to cause a tiny piece of glass to break the tank. (Okay, there's a way, but it's highly unlikely)
> 
> Am wondering if a needle valve or a piece of fitting didn't fly into the side of the tank.
> 
> ...


It would depend on how strong the tubing was and how secure the connections were (and where the rupture occured). The maximum pressure would be the same as that in the bottle (800psi-1100psi, depending on temperature). So, the line will start to move up to that PSI until a connection blows out or the line ruptures. At what pressure this happens is anyone's guess.

You've had several incidents with this paintball setup, but you continue to use it? Don't you think your luck will run out at some point? Isn't it worth adding a $25-$50 regulator to the setup?

We have an example of a catastrophic explosion (unless the original poster is lying). Isn't that enough?


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Ok, for all of those folks that are still on the paintball, ASA on/off side, you could try this experiment (and, I truly hope that you don't, but it is your life):

1. Set up a video camera pointing at your setup.
2. Tie the end of the CO2 line in a knot just before the diffuser.
3. See what happens.

Anyone?


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## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

The line/diffuser don't increase to tank pressure if clogged.. If there is no regulator, then the line and diffuser are already AT tank pressure(800-1000 PSI if Full)..

I do hope I don't have any problems with my setup, but I've definitely accidentally had a full bubble counter of water get shot through the line and my inline atomizer at least a couple times since i got it, with no issues. And the only other time something happened, clogged atomizer, the co2 line blew off the atomizer and that was it..

I think the intank diffuser coupled with the (kind of) oil he was using in his bubble counter is what caused that OP's particular problem..

These are just my opinions/experiences though, 2cents for what it's worth.


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## astrosag (Sep 3, 2010)

I don't have a CO2 set up. What type of lining do you guys without regulators use? I mean are you telling me that you use hosing that's capable of holding 800-900 psi? 

I used to deal with pressurized tanks when building hybrid rocket engines - wouldn't a regulator cost the same (if not cheaper) than hosing that's rated for such high pressure? Maybe I'm omitting something here...but a regulator makes much more sense than running that sort of pressure throughout your tubing. Always best to leave the high pressure between the tank the and regulator and nowhere else. 

Yea..i gotta be missing something here lol...


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## Naekuh (Oct 19, 2011)

HolyAngel said:


> eh, i use tank water for my bubble counter and have an inline atomizer, worst that could happen is i lose a couple gallons of water.. If you maintain your equipment, you shouldn't have a problem. I haven't had a single peep from either of my paintball asa setups, they work perfectly, only downside IMO is the o-rings..


i totally understand you holy.

but you need to look at it from our perspective.. the newbie perspective..

WE dont have down what 100% maintenance means... 
Most of the things which are protective, is probably lumped with maintaince, and we dont know if we need to do it until we get burned, or see someone in our shoes getting burned.

This is what my friend was telling me... pressurized gas with no regulator is asking for it... and he sat with me for 20 minutes trying to convince me to turn off my paintball system and wait for a real regulator... hell he almost ended up buying me a regulator if i refused to get one. 

If my friend was that adamant about it, my flags go up.

And its not just my friend... EVERY LAST CO2 guru i have talked to on this forum all says Paintball Co2 = Dangerous.... 

Even tho guru's may have big ego's typically its there because they made all the mistakes to earn the title guru...


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## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

astrosag said:


> I don't have a CO2 set up. What type of lining do you guys without regulators use? I mean are you telling me that you use hosing that's capable of holding 800-900 psi?
> 
> I used to deal with pressurized tanks when building hybrid rocket engines - wouldn't a regulator cost the same (if not cheaper) than hosing that's rated for such high pressure? Maybe I'm omitting something here...but a regulator makes much more sense than running that sort of pressure throughout your tubing. Always best to leave the high pressure between the tank the and regulator and nowhere else.
> 
> Yea..i gotta be missing something here lol...


Regular pressurized co2/air rated line.. mine is from lowes. was a few bucks for 10ft..



Naekuh said:


> i totally understand you holy.
> 
> but you need to look at it from our perspective.. the newbie perspective..
> 
> ...


I do agree with you that they can definitely be dangerous.. Research research research is what I always recommend and personally do before i get into anything. the more experiences people can share the better. But I don't think you HAVE to have a regulator to have a good working setup with the paintball tanks. Just need to *always* be careful and *know* what you're doing.. When i started messing with these paintball tanks no regulator existed for them, thats a very recent development.


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## Naekuh (Oct 19, 2011)

i honestly think things like this should happen after you learned CO2 tho, and not the other way arround.

I took this the wrong way.. i should of gotten a real regulator, learned from it, and then scaled down to a paintball.

Were doing this the other way arround.. :\ 

This is why i think were seeing a lot of problems and a lot of accidents. 
We just dont have enough fundamental knowledge yet on CO2 like you guru's do.

i'll be the first one to say i am a noob when it comes to pressurized gas. 
I know non compressible liquids like the back of my hand.. hell, i probably know more then most here even when it involves straight water and pumping....
But Gasses... completely different area... and i sometimes think CO2 isnt compressible from my other hobby, and thats where my friend brings the dunce hat out with 1 meter hitting stick.


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## astrosag (Sep 3, 2010)

HolyAngel said:


> Regular pressurized co2/air rated line.. mine is from lowes. was a few bucks for 10ft..


You're still exposing you, the tank, and whoever else goes near that thing with 800-1000 psi of gas in your hoses though, am I right?

Yea pressurized systems 101 - you minimize as much as you can the exposure of high pressure. With a regulator, the only time there's 800-900 psi in your system is in the tank itself and the regulator. 

There's no advantage to *not* having a regulator. But there is *risk* with not having one. Pretty common sense decision there...

But a wise man once told me - common sense is not so common. Ok fine, I read it somewhere.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Considering there is a potential risk(which I've said since the beginning) why would people risk it? There are a lot of ways to save a few bucks.... but this is a good way to destroy it all and cause catastrophic failure. 

Just doesn't make sense to me.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

I've had incidents with DIY Yeast and paintball with all kinds of tubing. From standard Lee's airline tubing to high PSI Watts tubing meant for CO2. Even Tygon.

The paintball setups I use are in steel and/or heavy duty aluminum cabinets, so I'm not too worried about getting injured. 

I've yet to find a $25 regulator that's not an absolute waste of space. So when I have a need for a small amount of CO2, I opt for an On/Off Valve and a high-pressure needle valve. For most folks, if they wanted to spend $50-$100 for a paintball regulator, they'd move on up to a big daddy CO2 rig.

And I also have 14 20lb cylinders with dual-stage regulators on other tanks.



galabar said:


> It would depend on how strong the tubing was and how secure the connections were (and where the rupture occured). The maximum pressure would be the same as that in the bottle (800psi-1100psi, depending on temperature). So, the line will start to move up to that PSI until a connection blows out or the line ruptures. At what pressure this happens is anyone's guess.
> 
> You've had several incidents with this paintball setup, but you continue to use it? Don't you think your luck will run out at some point? Isn't it worth adding a $25-$50 regulator to the setup?
> 
> We have an example of a catastrophic explosion (unless the original poster is lying). Isn't that enough?


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## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

astrosag said:


> You're still exposing you, the tank, and whoever else goes near that thing with 800-1000 psi of gas in your hoses though, am I right?
> 
> Yea pressurized systems 101 - you minimize as much as you can the exposure of high pressure. With a regulator, the only time there's 800-900 psi in your system is in the tank itself and the regulator.
> 
> ...


yep pretty much!

And I will probably invest in one or two now that they can be readily found, but a year or two ago and you had no choice but to not use regulator or go with a full blown professional co2 setup.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

HolyAngel said:


> The line/diffuser don't increase to tank pressure if clogged.. If there is no regulator, then the line and diffuser are already AT tank pressure(800-1000 PSI if Full)..


That is incorrect. The line and diffuser are at whatever pressure it takes to force CO2 through the diffusor. The pressure behind the needle valve (cylinder side) is 800 psi. The pressure in front of the needle valve (diffuser) side should be around 30 psi (for many diffusers).

When the diffuser clogs (or the line kinks), the pressure after the needle valve builds until (a) it reaches 800 psi and holds, or (b) it reaches some pressure less than 800 psi and ruptures.

If there were a regulator behind the needle valve, the pressure in the line would only build up to whatever the working pressure of the regulator was set at (maybe 50 psi).


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## Naekuh (Oct 19, 2011)

HolyAngel said:


> yep pretty much!
> 
> And I will probably invest in one or two now that they can be readily found, but a year or two ago and you had no choice but to not use regulator or go with a full blown professional co2 setup.


actually there was always regulators to paintball, they just didnt look appealing because they costed as much as 150-200 dollars. 

It also required a additional mini tank which held the gas in a prechamber to be discharged.
Or thats how i remember them as a long time ago.

anyhow lulz.. my 20lb tank + regulator came in today.
I offically graduated from paintball, err or got demoted from paintball to real. 
And now i want a dual stager...


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

somewhatshocked said:


> I've had incidents with DIY Yeast and paintball with all kinds of tubing...
> 
> The paintball setups I use are in steel and/or heavy duty aluminum cabinets, so I'm not too worried about getting injured.
> 
> ...


The current incident being mentioned happened within the aquarium, not at the cylinder. However, there is a high probability that, if something bad is going to happen, it is when your head is stuck in your steel cabinet trying to "fix" things. 

Also, if everything is contained within your cabinet, such as an in-line diffuser, a failure is going to leave the entire water content of your tank on the floor from the burst canister filter tubing.

It makes absolutely no sense to do this (not use a regulator). However, I'm actually surprised that there are only one or two defenders. That makes me feel a little bit better.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

galabar said:


> The current incident being mentioned happened within the aquarium, not at the cylinder. However, there is a high probability that, if something bad is going to happen, it is when your head is stuck in your steel cabinet trying to "fix" things.
> 
> Also, if everything is contained within your cabinet, such as an in-line diffuser, a failure is going to leave the entire water content of your tank on the floor from the burst canister filter tubing.
> 
> It makes absolutely no sense to do this (not use a regulator). However, I'm actually surprised that there are only one or two defenders. That makes me feel a little bit better.


I don't want to derail this conversation with some sort of personal debate but I have enough experience to know what I'm doing. Failures and successes go along with that.

It sounds like something went down where a projectile flew from the cylinder setup and hit the tank. Just my opinion. My eyebrow is merely raised because I've had all kinds of tank accidents over the years. The worst was when I dropped a sledge hammer (from 20ft above) that smashed into the side of a standard 10gal tank, ruining it. And even that wasn't a total blow-out - borderline heart attack aside.

Prefer not using in-line diffusion to avoid problems like you mention. The tanks I use paintball on are mostly driven by sponge filters, though, so I don't have to worry about more damage. Others reading this should DEFINITELY make note of the problems associated with paintball if they're considering in-line diffusion, though!

But you're right - the only time something will go wrong is when my race is right up on top of the paintball tank - ha. That'd be my luck.

Just because I know paintball is dangerous, I am upgrading one of my systems - ordered another dual-stage reg from maknwar about two hours ago.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

somewhatshocked said:


> I don't want to derail this conversation with some sort of personal debate but I have enough experience to know what I'm doing. Failures and successes go along with that.
> 
> It sounds like something went down where a projectile flew from the cylinder setup and hit the tank. Just my opinion. My eyebrow is merely raised because I've had all kinds of tank accidents over the years. The worst was when I dropped a sledge hammer (from 20ft above) that smashed into the side of a standard 10gal tank, ruining it. And even that wasn't a total blow-out - borderline heart attack aside.
> 
> ...


I just noticed an issue brought up in the power seller's forum, and I wanted to address it here. If you have an ASA on/off paintball setup, make sure that you do not attach a solenoid.

From my understanding of this, two things can happen, depending on how you set this up:

1) Between ASA on/off and needle valve -- the pressure will be too high for the solenoid to close.
2) After the needle valve -- the pressure will build up while the solenoid is closed and will be released explosively when the solenoid opens.

Am I correct here?!?


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## antbug (May 28, 2010)

Yes you are. ASA is not a regulator.


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## In.a.Box (Dec 8, 2011)

what happen if you use a power head as a bubble counter/diffuser?

use the right tool and there wont be any problem ...
with the right setup you wont have any problem ...

using a paintball tank on a 5.5g is asking for problem ... 

im still going to use paintball co2 without regulator ...
only time will tell ... 

dont let this thing scare anyone or hold you back from using it.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

You most certainly _should_ be afraid. As you should be afraid or wary with anything pressurized. Even a standard 10lb cylinder with a dual-stage regulator.

Just be safe with what you're doing and take precautions.



In.a.Box said:


> dont let this thing scare anyone or hold you back from using it.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

In.a.Box said:


> what happen if you use a power head as a bubble counter/diffuser?
> 
> use the right tool and there wont be any problem ...
> with the right setup you wont have any problem ...
> ...


Unfortunately, an unregulated CO2 cylinder (whatever the size) is not the right tool for injecting CO2 into an aquarium. There is no way to use it safely. Even with every precaution taken, it can still fail catastrophically.

No legitimate retailer sells an unregulated setup for our purposes. You will only see them sold on this site until someone gets hurt.


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## Rich Conley (Jun 10, 2008)

galabar said:


> If you failed to maintain the diffuser, I imagine that the same thing could happen, or, if the CO2 line became kinked, or you closed the lid on the tubing, etc., etc..


 The same damn thing would happen with a regulator. 


Airline isn't going to hold more than 30 psi or so. The blowout from either type of setup is going to be about the same. If you're screwing your airline down so that it can't blow off, then thats not a problem with the system, thats the user being an idiot. 

This has nothing to do with the paintball setups, and everything to do with a poorly maintained system.



Also, you can buy pressure relief valves for like $7.


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## Rich Conley (Jun 10, 2008)

HolyAngel said:


> The line/diffuser don't increase to tank pressure if clogged.. If there is no regulator, then the line and diffuser are already AT tank pressure(800-1000 PSI if Full)..


 No, they absolutely are not. 

While a needle valve is not a device designed to lower pressure (like a regulator), when you force a gas through a small orifice, into a larger space, the larger space doesn't instantaneously equalize. 

That larger space (in this case the tubing), will be at lower pressure than the orifice until it is restricted more severly than the orifice. Essentially, the tubing will be at whatever pressure it takes to push co2 through your stone/diffuser.

If the defuser clogs, then pressure will rise


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## Svynx (Nov 8, 2010)

This is what I've been running:
http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/239900/product.web

Works like a charm.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Rich Conley said:


> No, they absolutely are not.
> 
> While a needle valve is not a device designed to lower pressure (like a regulator), when you force a gas through a small orifice, into a larger space, the larger space doesn't instantaneously equalize.
> 
> ...


Exactly. If anything clogs, the line slowly builds up towards 800 psi. Of course, it isn't going to hold 800 psi (unless you are using a steel paintball hose), so it explodes.

Some diffusers require up to 30 psi (or more) and you can probably get a CO2 line up to 200 psi (maybe) before something starts to go wrong. With a regulator, no one is probably going higher than 50 psi, which is fine. Without a regulator, things get explosive.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Rich Conley said:


> The same damn thing would happen with a regulator.
> 
> 
> Airline isn't going to hold more than 30 psi or so. The blowout from either type of setup is going to be about the same. If you're screwing your airline down so that it can't blow off, then thats not a problem with the system, thats the user being an idiot.
> ...


That is simply incorrect. Many diffusers require at least 30 psi to operate. CO2 tubing will be fine at that pressure. Anyone setting their regulators to under 100 psi will be fine.

The only issue is with unregulated setups. Trying to set up your system so that the airline tubing "blows off" instead of exploding is silly. There is no technical way to do that. You place the CO2 tubing over a hose barb and it will either blow off (and dump the tank contents onto your floor) or it will explode. There is no way to tell which it is going to do.

Even if you tried to "test" your line be increasing the CO2 pressure until the hose blows off, there is no way to be sure that that will happen the next time.

Take a look at this link from Green Leaf:

http://blog.greenleafaquariums.com/2010/12/07/green-leaf-aquariums-announces-new-co2-diffusers/



> The only thing you need to have is adequate working pressure of 30psi. Co2 pressure rated tubing is the exact tubing we sell, its rated to 70psi @ $7.50 for 10′.


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## In.a.Box (Dec 8, 2011)

Longer hose, bigger hose ... 
Longer hose will give out more space for air/gas to be trap wouldn't you agree?

The question is what cost the bubble counter or diffuser to clog in the first place?
And 
What's the chance of using it with a canister filter? 
The problem to me is duh by the diffuser. I don't see how a bubble counter will clog.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

In.a.Box said:


> Longer hose, bigger hose ...
> Longer hose will give out more space for air/gas to be trap wouldn't you agree?
> 
> The question is what cost the bubble counter or diffuser to clog in the first place?
> ...


I'm not sure what you mean by "longer hose, bigger hose ...," but I don't see that as being much of an issue. A small diameter CO2 hose is going to fill up quickly once the pressure starts to build up. I'm guessing, but I'm not sure, that the explosion or rupture will happen at either a connection point or where the hose has been weakened.

A diffuser can clog if some liquid from the bubble counter reaches it, if there is mineral build up, algae build up, or for a variety of other reasons.

There is no way to safely set up a non-regulated system. You are just taking the chance that nothing bad will happen -- a bad chance to take, IMHO.


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## In.a.Box (Dec 8, 2011)

There the answer. 
Stay away from using diffuser. 

Go and buy yourself some pvc and build yourself one of those thing that ppl use with their canister filter or use a power head/ water pump.

Reactor


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

i thought check valve suppose to solve this issue.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

happi said:


> i thought check valve suppose to solve this issue.


A check valve will only stop flow from going back towards the CO2 cylinder. It would stop a pressure build up in the line. Also, if the line blows off (of blows up) past the check valve, the water from your tank could be siphoned onto your floor.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

In.a.Box said:


> There the answer.
> Stay away from using diffuser.
> 
> Go and buy yourself some pvc and build yourself one of those thing that ppl use with their canister filter or use a power head/ water pump.
> ...


Think what would happen if the CO2 pressure began to build and the CO2 tubing was connected to a reactor. The reactor fills up with CO2, and then what? The tubing explodes? The reactor explodes? The hoses connected to the reactor pop off or explode?

No, a reactor will not help here.


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## In.a.Box (Dec 8, 2011)

The whole point is to get air from point A to point B ...
If point B is block you will have problem.its a easy fix...


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

In.a.Box said:


> The whole point is to get air from point A to point B ...
> If point B is block you will have problem.its a easy fix...


No, that is not correct. If point B is blocked, then your system should stop delivering CO2. It should not explode!

If you have a regulated system and point B is blocked, you will stop getting CO2 injected into your system. With an unregulated "system" and a blocked point B, you would have a rupture (possibly catastrophic).


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

galabar said:


> A check valve will only stop flow from going back towards the CO2 cylinder. It would stop a pressure build up in the line. Also, if the line blows off (of blows up) past the check valve, the water from your tank could be siphoned onto your floor.



i guess you did not understand, i had a paintball co2 setup which will build a high pressure and due to check valve it will pop off from there releasing all the pressure before blowing up anything else. that's the another good thing about using check valve.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

happi said:


> i guess you did not understand, i had a paintball co2 setup which will build a high pressure and due to check valve it will pop off from there releasing all the pressure before blowing up anything else. that's the another good thing about using check valve.


So, you are relying on the tubing on the incoming side of the check valve blowing off in the event of a build up in pressure. Wow! Where can I buy one of these guaranteed pressure relief check valves? 

Seriously, though, there is no way to tell where the line will rupture. It may have happened once at that point (blowing off before the check valve), but it might happen somewhere else the next time.


----------



## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

galabar said:


> So, you are relying on the tubing on the incoming side of the check valve blowing off in the event of a build up in pressure. Wow! Where can I buy one of these guaranteed pressure relief check valves?
> 
> Seriously, though, there is no way to tell where the line will rupture. It may have happened once at that point (blowing off before the check valve), but it might happen somewhere else the next time.


By the way, I just started using this check valve from aquariumplants.com:

http://www.aquariumplants.com/THE_BEST_Check_Valve_medical_grade_p/check12.htm

It was impossible to pull the standard CO2 tubing off of it. I actually had to cut a slit in the CO2 tubing and peel it back. This is an example where the tubing would not blow off at that point.


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## In.a.Box (Dec 8, 2011)

galabar said:


> No, that is not correct. If point B is blocked, then your system should stop delivering CO2. It should not explode!
> 
> If you have a regulated system and point B is blocked, you will stop getting CO2 injected into your system. With an unregulated "system" and a blocked point B, you would have a rupture (possibly catastrophic).



like i say easy fix, dont let point B get block ...

isnt hard to do ...


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## Rich Conley (Jun 10, 2008)

galabar said:


> That is simply incorrect. Many diffusers require at least 30 psi to operate. CO2 tubing will be fine at that pressure.


Which is why I repeatedly say "AIRLINE" and not "CO2 TUBING"


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## Rich Conley (Jun 10, 2008)

galabar said:


> So, you are relying on the tubing on the incoming side of the check valve blowing off in the event of a build up in pressure. Wow! Where can I buy one of these guaranteed pressure relief check valves?
> 
> Seriously, though, there is no way to tell where the line will rupture. It may have happened once at that point (blowing off before the check valve), but it might happen somewhere else the next time.


 
There are plenty of high grade industrial components that rely on one specific piece blowing out before another. Standard airline will blow off a post pretty easy, and pretty consistently. 


Also, like I've said, pressure relief valves are available for about $7 at McMaster, or any other industrial supply place.


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## Rich Conley (Jun 10, 2008)

galabar said:


> It was impossible to pull the standard CO2 tubing off of it. I actually had to cut a slit in the CO2 tubing and peel it back. This is an example where the tubing would not blow off at that point.


 When you pull, you compress the tube, making it more difficult to come off. (Like the whole chinese finger traps thing). 

Your anecdote is meaningless.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Rich Conley said:


> When you pull, you compress the tube, making it more difficult to come off. (Like the whole chinese finger traps thing).
> 
> Your anecdote is meaningless.


Neither could I push, pry, or in any other way get the tube off.

Our systems aren't designed to "blow off" at certain points. There is no clear way to do that (if you have a way please let us know). Also, there is no way to "not let it get blocked." The tubing may block for a host of uncontrollable reasons.

You are trying to dance around the fact that this is dangerous. You mention industrial components -- no industry would suggest the use of unregulated CO2 gas for our purposes. Please show me any legitimate authority that suggests the use of unregulated CO2 gas in hydroponics injection.

Crickets?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

To my understanding, this setup became popular on here off of a DIY post that turned into a business. As intriguing the cost is for this setup, I always felt that it was a bad idea in many ways. It just shows that even if there is only a small chance of failure, it will rear it's head when enough people do it.

My opinion, there are plenty of other options that work on paintball and let you take advantage of the cost savings over a "real setup".


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## jefferzbooboo (Feb 24, 2008)

I tried a setup like this, and it worked well for awhile, then my diffuser plugged. I went to find out what was wrong and the check valve blew in half about 2 ft from my head and shot the one end across the room, shattered the glass diffuser in the tank. This may have been due to my error, but that was enough for me to quit using it.
I'm not bashing the set up or recommending anyone against it, just wanted to post my experience.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

jefferzbooboo said:


> I tried a setup like this, and it worked well for awhile, then my diffuser plugged. I went to find out what was wrong and the check valve blew in half about 2 ft from my head and shot the one end across the room, shattered the glass diffuser in the tank. This may have been due to my error, but that was enough for me to quit using it.
> I'm not bashing the set up or recommending anyone against it, just wanted to post my experience.


It's good you post. There is a lot of assumptions in this thread that you can use an unregulated system safely but the reality is that without any pressure relief valve, you never know what is going to happen. Even if there is a very small rate of failure, so many people have adopted the system that you hear about it more and more.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

jefferzbooboo said:


> I tried a setup like this, and it worked well for awhile, then my diffuser plugged. I went to find out what was wrong and the check valve blew in half about 2 ft from my head and shot the one end across the room, shattered the glass diffuser in the tank. This may have been due to my error, but that was enough for me to quit using it.
> I'm not bashing the set up or recommending anyone against it, just wanted to post my experience.


To this point, we've only had an example of someone's tank exploding (they weren't around when it happened). Now we have someone that could have actually been killed -- killed dead. Wow!


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

galabar said:


> Crap!!! To this point, we've only had an example of someone's tank exploding (they weren't around when it happened). Now we have someone that could have actually been killed -- killed dead. Wow!
> 
> 2ft and you might have been dead and your relatives would have been suing this site and the seller of this item for everything they have. :icon_sad:


Perhaps we should relax from the over drama. The diffuser clogged and rupture from any setup. I've seen normal dual stage setups cause glass diffusers to explode.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

OverStocked said:


> Perhaps we should relax from the over drama. The diffuser clogged and rupture from any setup. I've seen normal dual stage setups cause glass diffusers to explode.


A regulator will be set at, for example, 30 psi. You may see a hose pop off from that type of pressure. However, we are talking about up to 800 psi. 30 psi is not going to cause a tank to explode or the incident just mentioned.

Again, this is unsafe.

p.s. A clogged diffusor is an expected occurrence. It is not the fault of the user. In a safe setup, a clogged diffusor is a safe event. If your diffusor clogs and your tank explodes (or you blow off a finger), it is not your fault.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

I've actually seen glass diffusers blow up. Like watched it happen. 


Sent from my iPhone 4S


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

OverStocked said:


> I've actually seen glass diffusers blow up. Like watched it happen.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 4S


Pictures? Videos? What was the working pressure set at?

p.s. I don't doubt that a cheap glass diffuser has cracked or split. However, we are talking about incidents were the entire tank was taken out (a huge hole in the tank) or parts were blown across the room.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

galabar said:


> That is incorrect. The line and diffuser are at whatever pressure it takes to force CO2 through the diffusor. The pressure behind the needle valve (cylinder side) is 800 psi. The pressure in front of the needle valve (diffuser) side should be around 30 psi (for many diffusers).
> 
> When the diffuser clogs (or the line kinks), the pressure after the needle valve builds until (a) it reaches 800 psi and holds, or (b) it reaches some pressure less than 800 psi and ruptures.
> 
> If there were a regulator behind the needle valve, the pressure in the line would only build up to whatever the working pressure of the regulator was set at (maybe 50 psi).


Needle valves do not regulate pressure and there should be no drop after. They control flow and not pressure. If they worked as regulators(control pressure) then this wouldn't even be an issue. 




galabar said:


> Pictures? Videos? What was the working pressure set at?
> 
> p.s. I don't doubt that a cheap glass diffuser has cracked or split. However, we are talking about incidents were the entire tank was taken out (a huge hole in the tank) or parts were blown across the room.


Nope. I don't walk around with a gopro attached to my shoulder to record every moment of life. I'd guess we're talking about a cheap unit here since most people don't skimp on a regulator and get the best diffuser they can. 

Look, I said early on that I think these are dumb to have. But I think the over dramatic crusade is a waste of hot air.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

OverStocked said:


> Needle valves do not regulate pressure and there should be no drop after. They control flow and not pressure. If they worked as regulators(control pressure) then this wouldn't even be an issue.


Yes, there is indeed a drop after the needle valve. The output of the needle valve is not (in general) at the 800 psi level of the tank. The pressure after the needle valve will build up to whatever the cracking pressure is of the device downstream from the needle valve. In the case of a clogged diffuser, the cracking (or "exploding") pressure is either 800 psi (equilibrium with the CO2 cylinder) or whatever pressure causes it to explode/crack.

I'm surprised that you don't understand this. That may be why you are making the arguments that you are. You need to read back through this post (and others) and understand exactly what is going on.



> Nope. I don't walk around with a gopro attached to my shoulder to record every moment of life. I'd guess we're talking about a cheap unit here since most people don't skimp on a regulator and get the best diffuser they can.
> 
> Look, I said early on that I think these are dumb to have. But I think the over dramatic crusade is a waste of hot air.


Well, if the latest incident happened 2ft to the right, we wouldn't be worrying about a crusade, but rather, possibly a funeral for one of our forum members.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

If needle valves regulate pressure this whole thread is without merit. If they do regulate pressure they are safer than a regulator. 

This wouldn't have killed anyone. Relax. You're not making your case any better. 

I've seen a lot of trauma in my life. No need to make it something it isn't. I could "blow up" an aquarium with a a fork. 


Sent from my iPhone 4S


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## crowconor (Jan 29, 2012)

How people have actually had something bad happen compared to how many are using it. It sounds like saying we shouldn't use cars because every so often people get in car accident. Maybe I am wrong?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Just one key thing that is missing from this discussion when comparing a needle valve to a regulator. A regulator will have some sort of pressure relief valve (or it should have one).


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## Say Car Ramrod (Oct 9, 2011)

Is it possible to put a pressure relief valve on after the needle valve. I actually just bought an asa valve and I'm going to order a dual stage regulator asap! 

Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

OverStocked said:


> If needle valves regulate pressure this whole thread is without merit. If they do regulate pressure they are safer than a regulator.
> 
> This wouldn't have killed anyone. Relax. You're not making your case any better.
> 
> ...


Ok, I didn't realize that you were working from a technological deficit here (not an insult -- I've got a lot of things I don't know too.  ).

Let's take a look at this:

*regulator (60 psi working pressure) --A--> needle valve --B--> bubble counter --C--> diffuser (30 psi cracking pressure)*

With a properly working diffuser, A == 60 PSI, B == 30 PSI, and C == 30 PSI (someone please correct me if I am wrong).

For a clogged diffuser, we have A == 60 PSI, B == 60 PSI, and C == 60 PSI. That is with a regulator.

Now, the same is true without a regulator (the setup we are talking about):

*ASA valve --A--> needle valve --B--> bubble counter --C--> diffuser (30 psi cracking pressure)*

In this case, for a properly working diffuser, A == 800 PSI, B == 30 PSI, and C == 30 PSI. For a clogged diffuser, A == 800 PSI, B == 800 PSI, and C == 800 PSI. Of course, B and C in the final example will almost certainly not make it to 800 PSI.

Does this clear things up or do you disagree with the above?


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

crowconor said:


> How people have actually had something bad happen compared to how many are using it. It sounds like saying we shouldn't use cars because every so often people get in car accident. Maybe I am wrong?


Hmm, the analogy might be driving a modern car with crumple zones, anti-lock brakes, traction control, seat belts, and air bags, as opposed to an old car with none of those things.

However, I don't think that analogy goes far enough. We know the failure case too well with these unregulated setups. When (not if) your diffuser clogs, the working pressure is going to come into equilibrium with your CO2 cylinder (800 PSI) or (more likely) something is going to rupture.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

You're taking two unrelated thing and assuming they have some impact on each other that they do not. 

The cracking pressure of a diffuser has nothing to do with if the needle valve changes psi. 

Needle valves regulate flow and not pressure. Plain and simple. 

Perhaps your technological expertise could draw me a picture of how a non-diaphragm device lowers psi from 800 psi to 40-60 or even 100 psi. 

Please. Do tell. 




Sent from my iPhone 4S


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

OverStocked said:


> You're taking two unrelated thing and assuming they have some impact on each other that they do not.
> 
> The cracking pressure of a diffuser has nothing to do with if the needle valve changes psi.
> 
> ...


First, I wonder if it would be possible for someone else to respond that you might trust more? I bet there are a few reading right now. 

So, having said that, let me try to simplify it a bit. Try to imagine the needle valve as a flow restrictor. Only a certain amount of gas can make its way physically through the valve over a certain period of time. Now, you are having a problem with the idea that the needle valve is lowering the cylinder pressure. Instead, think of it this way -- the needle valve is actually allowing the pressure on the other side to *rise*.

Let's say that you have a CO2 cylinder, an ASA on/off valve, a needle valve, and then tubing that ends in a glass of water. Now, you turn on the ASA on/off valve, but leave the needle valve off. The pressure between the ASA on/off valve and the needle valve is around 800 psi. The pressure in the tubing is probably around atmospheric pressure, or "0" psi adjusted for our purposes.

Now, you turn on the needle valve slightly so that you have one bubble per second in the glass of water. Do you think the pressure in the tubbing is now at 800 psi? Do you really?

Ok, you don't seriously think that, so we can move on.  The pressure in the tube is just slightly more than atmospheric pressure plus the amount of pressure to push down into the water in the glass (negligible). Now, imagine that you put your thumb over the end of the tubing and block it. Do you think the pressure in the tubbing is now at 800 psi? Do you really?

Again, you don't seriously think that, so we can move on.  Now that the tubing is blocked, the pressure inside the tubing begins to rise. Slowly, of course, as the needle valve is restricting gas flow at just one bubble per second. However, the pressure does rise, and continues to rise until the pressure in the tubing comes into equilibrium with the pressure in the CO2 cylinder.

Do you get it now? 

Of course, again, the tubing will probably never reach the point where it comes into equilibrium with the CO2 cylinder. The tubing is probably rated at around 70 psi. At some point (let's say you tie a knot in the tubing and the tubing is securely fastened to the needle valve), the pressure will rise to the point were the tubing bursts.

The burst tubing is now open to the atmosphere and the pressure in what is left of the tubing connected to the needle valve is now back down to "0" psi as the gas slow moves through the needle valve out into the atmosphere.

I don't know if I can explain it any better than that.

Phew!


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## crowconor (Jan 29, 2012)

You really do not like these paintball tank set-ups. Did one of them hurt you or something?


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

crowconor said:


> You really do not like these paintball tank set-ups. Did one of them hurt you or something?


It was kind of painful, and I don't like to talk about it... it left me for another valve.

Badabump! :hihi:

Seriously, though. I'm just not enjoying seeing these things blowing up on people. :icon_cry:


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

galabar said:


> First, I wonder if it would be possible for someone else to respond that you might trust more? I bet there are a few reading right now.
> 
> So, having said that, let me try to simplify it a bit. Try to imagine the needle valve as a flow restrictor. Only a certain amount of gas can make its way physically through the valve over a certain period of time. Now, you are having a problem with the idea that the needle valve is lowering the cylinder pressure. Instead, think of it this way -- the needle valve is actually allowing the pressure on the other side to *rise*.


Only a certain AMOUNT of gas makes it through, however it is at the same PRESSURE. Needle valves do NOT regulate PRESSURE. They do not have a diaphragm. If they DID, this entire thread would be moot. 

The pressure on the in side of the needle valve will not grow higher than the tank output at room temperature and the out side will be a lower flow, same pressure. 

Perhaps remedial physics would be useful for you. 


> Let's say that you have a CO2 cylinder, an ASA on/off valve, a needle valve, and then tubing that ends in a glass of water. Now, you turn on the ASA on/off valve, but leave the needle valve off. The pressure between the ASA on/off valve and the needle valve is around 800 psi. The pressure in the tubing is probably around atmospheric pressure, or "0" psi adjusted for our purposes.


The needle valve is not responsible for this. The fact that the gas is rapidly escaping is responsible for this. The same exact thing would be true if you didn't use a needle valve at all. Instead just put a check valve. 

If you STOP the flow on the out side of the needle valve it will still be the same as the in side. 



> Now, you turn on the needle valve slightly so that you have one bubble per second in the glass of water. Do you think the pressure in the tubbing is now at 800 psi? Do you really?


Do you really think that the what you are seeing is the needle valve regulating pressure? If you do, you're wrong. 


> Ok, you don't seriously think that, so we can move on.  The pressure in the tube is just slightly more than atmospheric pressure plus the amount of pressure to push down into the water in the glass (negligible). Now, imagine that you put your thumb over the end of the tubing and block it. Do you think the pressure in the tubbing is now at 800 psi? Do you really?


If you were to put brass fittings on the out side of a needle valve and shut it off with a pressure gauge on the out side, you would see that it IS the same as the in side. Do you really think that you can reinvent the laws of physics tonight? I've not had enough to drink, if you do. 


> Again, you don't seriously think that, so we can move on.  Now that the tubing is blocked, the pressure inside the tubing begins to rise. Slowly, of course, as the needle valve is restricting gas flow at just one bubble per second. However, the pressure does rise, and continues to rise until the pressure in the tubing comes into equilibrium with the pressure in the CO2 cylinder.
> 
> Do you get it now?
> 
> ...


If you'd like to actually show me a shut off tube output that hasn't blown up(because it isn't rated for 800 psi so it does far before) then I'll be happy to stand down. 

Since you can't do this since I know for a fact that I am right, I'll walk away happy. 

Your smug responses have done nothing to prove you're correct. They have however confirmed to me that you're just as dangerous as one of these "regulators". 

YOu haven't explained anything at all other than your incorrect assumptions. 

THE NEEDLE VALVE DOES NOT CHANGE PSI. THEY DO NOT PREVENT BACK FLOW EITHER. THAT IS WHAT CHECK VALVES ARE FOR. NEEDLE VALVE, WHILE THEY MAY NOT HAVE BEST FLOW IN BOTH DIRECTIONS, DO ALLOW FLOW IN BOTH DIRECTIONS. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY NO REGULATION OCCURRING INSIDE A NEEDLE VALVE. GAS WILL FLOW IN BOTH DIRECTIONS AND WILL BE AT EQUILIBRIUM ON BOTH SIDES. FLOW /= PRESSURE REGULATION

If you'd like to come back and actually contribute how it is that needle valves regulate pressure, I'd love to see it. As I see it now, you've basically taken it personally that you're wrong.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Think of it this way, maybe it'll be easier to grasp. 

Needle Valves are like the gas peddle on your car. IT controls how fast your car is going. It doesn't change how much your car weighs. 

If you open it all the way, the car still weighs 3000 lbs, it is just going 90 miles per hour. 

If you shut it down to nothing, the car still weighs 3000 lbs, but it is going at a crawl. 

The Accelerator doesn't magically make your car weight 5000 lbs.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

OverStocked said:


> Only a certain AMOUNT of gas makes it through, however it is at the same PRESSURE. Needle valves do NOT regulate PRESSURE. They do not have a diaphragm. If they DID, this entire thread would be moot.
> 
> The pressure on the in side of the needle valve will not grow higher than the tank output at room temperature and the out side will be a lower flow, same pressure.
> 
> ...


Quoted for posterity. 

p.s. I can't spoon feed it any more than I have.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

I'd prefer you didn't spoon feed me any more incorrect information, so it is ok. 

Like I said long before you were a member here, these setups are a bad idea. 

Using incorrect information and dramatics isn't necessary though.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

OverStocked said:


> I'd prefer you didn't spoon feed me any more incorrect information, so it is ok.
> 
> Like I said long before you were a member here, these setups are a bad idea.
> 
> Using incorrect information and dramatics isn't necessary though.


Don't worry, I won't continue to try to correct you. You seem set in your (incorrect) views. However, I am confident that most folks that understand this now have a much lower opinion of your opinions.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Please explain to all of us how a bidirectional, non regulating device regulates pressure. 

I'm dying to know. 


Sent from my iPhone 4S


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

OverStocked said:


> Please explain to all of us how a bidirectional, non regulating device regulates pressure.
> 
> I'm dying to know.


By the way, where in any of my comments did I say that a needle valve regulates pressure?


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

See post 61. I quoted for posterity. 

The pressure is no different on either side of a needle valve. They have no possible way to cause pressure change. The gas can flow back an forth. 

Perhaps you should just go get a couple pressure gauges and prove me wrong. 


Sent from my iPhone 4S


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

OverStocked said:


> See post 61. I quoted for posterity.
> 
> The pressure is no different on either side of a needle valve. They have no possible way to cause pressure change. The gas can flow back an forth.
> 
> Perhaps you should just go get a couple pressure gauges and prove me wrong.


Here is the post:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/e...me-bomb-your-paintball-asa-5.html#post1746715

Where did I claim that a needle valve is a pressure regulator?

Jeopardy music playing...


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Perhaps post 62 will help you. 

Explain to me how the needle valve is some magical place that the psi changes. Please? 

It is the same on both sides. 

They have no diaphragm. They are non regulating devices. Gas can flow back and forth. 

This obviously isn't worth my effort. Much like the actual crusades, little will stop you now. 





Sent from my iPhone 4S


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

OverStocked said:


> Perhaps post 62 will help you.
> 
> Explain to me how the needle valve is some magical place that the psi changes. Please?
> 
> ...


Ok, a no go on 61? 62 is it? Well, here is the post:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/e...me-bomb-your-paintball-asa-5.html#post1746725

Where does it say that a needle valve is a pressure regulator?

So, the pressure is the same on both sides of the needle valve? That is what you are stating? Really? Really, really with sugar on top really?


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## Jeff.:P:. (Sep 8, 2009)

This thread should be a sticky for entertainment and informational value.
I forsee a lock coming :hihi:
Either way this setup is poteintally dangerous and should be definetly not done, especially at the rate these are selling, maybe have a forced read if buyers are looking at these DIY threads. IMO. :icon_wink
Regulate your pressure!


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Jeff.:P:. said:


> This thread should be a sticky for entertainment and informational value.
> I forsee a lock coming :hihi:
> Either way this setup is poteintally dangerous and should be definetly not done, especially at the rate these are selling, maybe have a forced read if buyers are looking at these DIY threads. IMO. :icon_wink


Heck yeah!



> Regulate your pressure!


Something you can't do with just a needle valve. 

p.s. You are right -- these things are selling. I see PM notices and shipping notices every week from a certain power seller. There have got to be lots and lots of these out in the wild.


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## Jeff.:P:. (Sep 8, 2009)

The type of blockage, kink from the diffuser or tubing might be rare, the potential for risk is there, which would be enough to drive me nuts. Who needs to cleanup a mess after one of these going wrong, coming from the Coral Reef side mr. murphy is always looking to have fun.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Jeff.:P:. said:


> The type of blockage, kink from the diffuser or tubing might be rare, the potential for risk is there, which would be enough to drive me nuts.


Yes, that is true. There are so many things that can go wrong. If you have your working pressure set to 30 psi with a real regulator, none of those things will be a problem. When you don't have a regulator and that gas slowly moves through that needle valve and the pressure builds and builds... Yikes!!! :help:


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

By the way, here is the original post and the reason for this post:










http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/general-planted-tank-discussion/155384-my-co2-line-exploded-4.html


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Ok, let's end this:

http://www.valvias.com/flow-coefficient.php

I guess I should have done that as soon as OverStocked posted. Oh well, live and learn (or don't learn as the case may be).


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## Jeff.:P:. (Sep 8, 2009)

Will this setup blow up your nieghborhood? no
Will this setup kill you? doubtfull

Most likely this would break your tank, hurt your eye, make a mess, and maybe get zapped depending on your electrical setup. :hihi::icon_idea


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## Jeff.:P:. (Sep 8, 2009)

:icon_lol: I feel fluid mechanics flashblacks coming back...


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

galabar said:


> Ok, let's end this:
> 
> http://www.valvias.com/flow-coefficient.php
> 
> I guess I should have done that as soon as OverStocked posted. Oh well, live and learn (or don't learn as the case may be).


Did you read or understand that?

Flow coefficient does not change working pressure. 

http://www.valvias.com/type-needle-valve.php

Suitable for regulating flow. FLOW. F L O W.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Here is another:

http://staff.fit.ac.cy/eng.ca/AMEE310_Lab6.doc



> Needle Valves
> 
> The needle valve is a component that allows control of the rate of flow in a system. It consists of a valve body containing two ports, an adjustable needle, a seat and a stem seal. Its operation is shown in Figure 2-10.
> 
> ...


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

> Cv is the amount of flow in gallons per
> minute through a valve which results in a 1
> psi pressure drop. Throttling characteristics
> are shown in the same manner with Cv’s at
> various openings


We're talking about valves with a CV of less than .02, often MUCH lower. Their effect on PSI is almost nothing. Seriously.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

I think a good measure of a man's character is how he reacts when he has been proven indisputably wrong. Let's see...


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

So now we're concerned about pressure backing up UP stream? How does that make it more dangerous DOWN stream? Do you see what you're saying here.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Also a good explanation for EOTD, but I digress:

http://staff.fit.ac.cy/eng.ca/AMEE310_Lab6.doc



> Needle Valves
> 
> ...
> The flow through the valve will increase if either the size of the orifice is increased or, if the size of the orifice remains constant but the pressure drop is increased by raising the upstream pressure. Needle valves control the flow in both directions.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

OverStocked, you are starting to look silly.

Do this: make a setup as I have mentioned and put a tee in the CO2 tubing connected to a pressure gauge. Prove to yourself that the pressures are different (or the same  ) on either side of the needle valve.

Do that, and come back if your experiments somehow show flaws in our current understanding of physics.

p.s. I'm starting to get way to snarky, and I don't think I can control myself, so I'm going to stop before this thread gets locked.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

This thread has digressed to the point that it is being closed.


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