# tap water is like pure poison for frogs.



## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Whoever told you chloramines is not as deadly to fauna was mistaken.
Is the ammonia in chloramines that can have instant negative effect on fauna depending on species, and or how much untreated tap water they are subjected to.
Might not have as big an effect with topping off a tank as opposed to large water change with untreated tap water.


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## Overwatch (Nov 26, 2016)

roadmaster said:


> Whoever told you chloramines is not as deadly to fauna was mistaken.
> Is the ammonia in chloramines that can have instant negative effect on fauna depending on species, and or how much untreated tap water they are subjected to.
> Might not have as big an effect with topping off a tank as opposed to large water change with untreated tap water.


You can thank Dustin and his supporters for that false information as well as URJoey who will routinely refill this tank directly from his tap.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Well, Chloramines are not as deadly as what? Ammonia? chlorine?
Chloramine is.. Chlorine and ammonia.
One could split hair's I guess, and debate which is the more harmful, but the smart money I think would treat all Tap water if the welfare of fauna is primary concern.


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## Overwatch (Nov 26, 2016)

roadmaster said:


> Well, Chloramines are not as deadly as what? Ammonia? chlorine?
> Chloramine is.. Chlorine and ammonia.
> One could split hair's I guess, and debate which is the more harmful, but the smart money I think would treat all Tap water if the welfare of fauna is primary concern.


Chloramines not as deadly as chlorine. Primary concern was getting them water from a tank that was almost empty. Ended up being a big mistake.


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## Olskule (Jan 28, 2010)

Overwatch said:


> Chloramines not as deadly as chlorine...


Wrong. Chloramine is created by chemically bonding Chlorine and ammonia, the purpose of which is to produce a more stable additive to tap water which will prevent biological functions (mostly bacterial growth is targeted) and prevent water-born contamination more dependably. (The ammonia keeps the Chlorine from leaving the water easily.) Water with only Chlorine added to it will quickly lose the Chlorine (via off-gassing), which is why you can use water in aquariums after simply aerating it with an air stone and air pump, or by creating surface turbulence, which increases gas exchange. Actually, just leaving water uncovered for a day will get rid of simple Chlorine, and the ease with which Chlorine leaves water is the reason Chloramine was developed and came into common use in the mid/late '80s. This is also why aquarium product companies came out with new tap-water treatments such as Kordon's "Amquel" in addition to their "Novaqua" product, because simple de-chlorinators alone couldn't break the chemical bond and make the water safe for aquatic animals. 

Chloramine can only be quickly removed from water by first breaking the chemical bond between the ammonia and the Chlorine, after which each must be dealt with separately, since both are toxic to aquatic animals. I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that "Chloramines not as deadly as chlorine", since they both do the same thing, except that chloramine does it far longer than basic Chlorine by itself. If they could, I think your frogs and tadpoles would tell you otherwise, as well.

Amphibians take in much of the oxygen they need through their skin, which also means that they are more susceptible to chemicals in the water than even some fish (not including scaleless fish, which for the same reason--very porous skin--are more sensitive to some medications than other fish). As long as their skin remains moist/wet, they are able to take in enough oxygen to stay alive. Some younger tadpoles may possibly have more difficulty than older ones (?), but any frog/froglet with viable legs would be fine if kept moist. Next time, if in a similar situation, it would be better to leave the frogs and tadpoles with even just enough water to cover the tadpoles (or even less) and make sure you detoxify any water before you add it to their aquarium. Always keep in mind how sensitive most amphibians' skin is, which is why they are considered ecological indicators--whatever pollutants are in the environment will be quickly absorbed by the amphibians through their skin. This is also why it is best to not handle them with your bare hands--especially the ones with perpetually moist skin; the salts and oils from your own skin don't do them any good at all. Now if it was a dry-skinned toad, then I'd say it's best to not handle them for YOUR sake, due to the toxins some toads produce in their skin, not to mention that they'll likely pee on you and give you warts! (sic) 

Olskule


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## Overwatch (Nov 26, 2016)

Olskule said:


> Wrong. Chloramine is created by chemically bonding Chlorine and ammonia, the purpose of which is to produce a more stable additive to tap water which will prevent biological functions (mostly bacterial growth is targeted) and prevent water-born contamination more dependably. (The ammonia keeps the Chlorine from leaving the water easily.) Water with only Chlorine added to it will quickly lose the Chlorine (via off-gassing), which is why you can use water in aquariums after simply aerating it with an air stone and air pump, or by creating surface turbulence, which increases gas exchange. Actually, just leaving water uncovered for a day will get rid of simple Chlorine, and the ease with which Chlorine leaves water is the reason Chloramine was developed and came into common use in the mid/late '80s. This is also why aquarium product companies came out with new tap-water treatments such as Kordon's "Amquel" in addition to their "Novaqua" product, because simple de-chlorinators alone couldn't break the chemical bond and make the water safe for aquatic animals.
> 
> Chloramine can only be quickly removed from water by first breaking the chemical bond between the ammonia and the Chlorine, after which each must be dealt with separately, since both are toxic to aquatic animals. I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that "Chloramines not as deadly as chlorine", since they both do the same thing, except that chloramine does it far longer than basic Chlorine by itself. If they could, I think your frogs and tadpoles would tell you otherwise, as well.
> 
> ...


Yes I screwed up big time. I know Chloramine do not disinfect as well as Chlorine. I was under the false impression that Chloramine would kill in maybe a day or so not instantly. 

Do Toads really give people warts ? 

Anyway, I am not very happy about all this. I don't even know how frogs survive at all being so fragile. They die when they dry out and when the sprinklers turn in the back yard, it basically is like killer acid for them.

Anyway, I will never make this mistake again.


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## Olskule (Jan 28, 2010)

Overwatch said:


> ...Do Toads really give people warts ?...


No, not really. That is why that statement is followed by "(sic)", meaning the writer is aware of the false or incorrect nature of the previous statement or quote. Toads giving you warts is just an old wives' tale. But it _is_ true that they will pee on you; it's a defense response, and considering that most predators hold their prey in their mouths, it's probably a pretty good one, don't you think?

Olskule


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## Fissure (Jun 29, 2014)

Depends on the predators fetishes. I have heard some like that stuff... :O


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## Olskule (Jan 28, 2010)

Fissure said:


> Depends on the predators fetishes. I have heard some like that stuff... :O


LOL! I wasn't thinking about _that_ type of predator! :laugh2:

Olskule


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## Overwatch (Nov 26, 2016)

Olskule said:


> No, not really. That is why that statement is followed by "(sic)", meaning the writer is aware of the false or incorrect nature of the previous statement or quote. Toads giving you warts is just an old wives' tale. But it _is_ true that they will pee on you; it's a defense response, and considering that most predators hold their prey in their mouths, it's probably a pretty good one, don't you think?
> 
> Olskule


I actually did not know what (SIC) means. I thought you were saying like " Sick, gross, disgusting,etc..) Thank you for explaining. 

You are saying a frog's defense mechanism is to pee in the mouth of a predator? That is actually really sick and disturbing. My cat use to used this defense whenever the carpet attacked her by peeing all over it. LOL :grin2:


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## Fissure (Jun 29, 2014)

Well in the wild smaller species of cats are not in top of the food chain, they also do this in the wild when attacked by carpets or newly washed laundry.


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## Overwatch (Nov 26, 2016)

Fissure said:


> Depends on the predators fetishes. I have heard some like that stuff... :O


I think I saw something like this on south park last season. :surprise:


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> The Latin adverb sic ("thus"; in full: sic erat scriptum, "thus was it written")[1] inserted after a quoted word or passage, indicates that the quoted matter has been transcribed exactly as found in the source text, complete with any erroneous or archaic spelling, surprising assertion, faulty reasoning, or other matter that might otherwise be taken as an error of transcription.
> 
> The usual usage is to inform the reader that any errors or apparent errors in quoted material do not arise from errors in the course of the transcription, but are intentionally reproduced, exactly as they appear in the source text. It is generally placed inside brackets to indicate that it is not part of the quoted matter.
> 
> Sic may also be used derisively, to call attention to the original writer's spelling mistakes or erroneous logic


for fun.....


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## Overwatch (Nov 26, 2016)

jeffkrol said:


> for fun.....


Wow, is everyone here a PH.D in English literature ? :nerd:


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Overwatch said:


> You can thank Dustin and his supporters for that false information as well as URJoey who will routinely refill this tank directly from his tap.


They might be on well water. No chlorine or chloramine.


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## Overwatch (Nov 26, 2016)

mistergreen said:


> They might be on well water. No chlorine or chloramine.


URJoey is Well water however he does not explain that in many of the videos. He will show like a 80% water change directly from his tap or a continuous drip system without explaining that 99.9% of the people can't do that. 

Dustin is just ignorant about Chloramines and thinks that letting the water sit for a day or two will eliminate it. Does not know that Chloramines will last for several weeks. 

Also federal government is pushing all chlorine to be converted to Chloramines in treatment facilities big time. The places that you find Chlorine treated water is getting less and less every year. This is bad news for people with ponds or fish farms,etc..

Many of the products I see out there don't even address the ammonia problem and the ones that do only temporary render it non-toxic for maybe 24 hours. 
If your biological filtration can't convert it in 24 hours, you might end up with dead fish.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Overwatch said:


> URJoey is Well water however he does not explain that in many of the videos. He will show like a 80% water change directly from his tap or a continuous drip system without explaining that 99.9% of the people can't do that.
> 
> Dustin is just ignorant about Chloramines and thinks that letting the water sit for a day or two will eliminate it. Does not know that Chloramines will last for several weeks.
> 
> ...


Let's not blame others for your mistakes.


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## Overwatch (Nov 26, 2016)

mistergreen said:


> Let's not blame others for your mistakes.


Only mistake is listening to so called " experts" on youtube.


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## longgonedaddy (Dec 9, 2012)

mistergreen said:


> Let's not blame others for your mistakes.


Thank you!


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## Overwatch (Nov 26, 2016)

longgonedaddy said:


> Thank you!


How about we show so called " fish experts" on youtube treating water before they add it to the aquarium( or at least say that this won't work for 99.9% of the people who don't use well water) or not telling people they can leave the water out for a day or two and its safe to put in the aquarium when the majority of municipalities are using Chloramines not chlorine?


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Overwatch said:


> How about we show so called " fish experts" on youtube treating water before they add it to the aquarium( or at least say that this won't work for 99.9% of the people who don't use well water) or not telling people they can leave the water out for a day or two and its safe to put in the aquarium when the majority of municipalities are using Chloramines not chlorine?


 
As mentioned,leaving water out in a bucket for a day or two ,chlorine would not be an issue, and with heavy plant mass the plant's would assimilate the residual ammonia faster than biological filter material easily.
But this scenario to me,,,would be more like topping off a tank mid week just as I do each week.( is small amount of water to top off )
When I change 50 % of the water each week from my tap as opposed to just topping off a tank,I treat the tank with PRIME before re-filling with often as much as 60 gallon's.
Lot's of if's,and's,or but's can be discussed or debated, but for the sake of the fish and critter's I keep,a few drop's of conditioner is cheap insurance against poisoning,medicating,or replacing fishes/shrimps.
If I didn't need to treat water I wouldn't.


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## Olskule (Jan 28, 2010)

Overwatch said:


> Also federal government is pushing all chlorine to be converted to Chloramines in treatment facilities big time. The places that you find Chlorine treated water is getting less and less every year. This is bad news for people with ponds or fish farms,etc.


This is the same Federal Government that told us fluoride added to our drinking water was a great idea because it made kids' teeth stronger, and strongly encouraged public water systems to add it to their water for decades. Now they're realizing that not only does it do nothing for kids' teeth, but it actually has the effect of lowering the I.Q. of people who consume it in their developmental years. What a wonderful Big Brother we have! [sic*]

*_Thanks for the Latin lesson, Jeffkrol; I really wasn't aware of the source of the practice, but it is interesting to know (and that's sans "sic"! lol)._

Olskule


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## nel (Jan 23, 2016)

Overwatch said:


> How about we show so called " fish experts" on youtube treating water before they add it to the aquarium( or at least say that this won't work for 99.9% of the people who don't use well water) or not telling people they can leave the water out for a day or two and its safe to put in the aquarium when the majority of municipalities are using Chloramines not chlorine?



Most of them don't call themselves "fish experts", they just let us watch how they're doing things and what works for them. I don't need to treat my water too, so what, should I write in my journal "I'm not treating my water, but remember you may need to."? Every guide on how to set up fish tank says you should treat the water.


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## longgonedaddy (Dec 9, 2012)

Overwatch said:


> How about we show so called " fish experts" on youtube treating water before they add it to the aquarium( or at least say that this won't work for 99.9% of the people who don't use well water) or not telling people they can leave the water out for a day or two and its safe to put in the aquarium when the majority of municipalities are using Chloramines not chlorine?


I've watched YouTube videos of drunk 22 year olds trying to do a backflip off a roof into a kiddie pool. I don't consider them expert stuntmen. 

Get a book from a reputable source, consult forums like this one where the collective knowledge is outstanding, do research on what you're putting in your tank, from the hard materials to water, to food, to livestock. Gather info, and formulate a plan. Know what needs to be done,don't take shortcuts, until you are the expert. And when you're an expert, you'll realize that most shortcuts in this hobby are detrimental in one way or another and you'll need to account for that.

And most importantly, stop blaming others for your mistake. Yes, I know you feel bad, I've been there. I doubt anyone on this forum hasn't made some critical error along the way in fishkeeping. We all learned from what we did, and did things better the next time. If you haven't learned better husbandry practices from this, find another hobby, preferably one without living creatures.


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## jr125 (Mar 5, 2015)

nel said:


> Most of them don't call themselves "fish experts", they just let us watch how they're doing things and what works for them. I don't need to treat my water too, so what, should I write in my journal "I'm not treating my water, but remember you may need to."? Every guide on how to set up fish tank says you should treat the water.


I think the main distinction here is whether or not you are intending the information you are sharing is to be used as a guide to others or not. If so you should probably disclose situations that might/would require a different course of action.


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## Overwatch (Nov 26, 2016)

Olskule said:


> This is the same Federal Government that told us fluoride added to our drinking water was a great idea because it made kids' teeth stronger, and strongly encouraged public water systems to add it to their water for decades. Now they're realizing that not only does it do nothing for kids' teeth, but it actually has the effect of lowering the I.Q. of people who consume it in their developmental years. What a wonderful Big Brother we have! [sic*]
> 
> *_Thanks for the Latin lesson, Jeffkrol; I really wasn't aware of the source of the practice, but it is interesting to know (and that's sans "sic"! lol)._
> 
> Olskule


This idea of mass medicating people from the water supply is something that was originally done by the Nazis. I am highly opposed to this act. Fluoride is actually considered to be a poison and industrial waste. If a regular person started dumping industrial waste poison such as fluoride in the water supply it would be considered an act of terrorism. 

I signed up for this website Fluoride Action Network | Broadening Public Awareness on Fluoride.

I am sure its not good for fish, plants and especially salt water aquariums. 

Many people with Salt water aquariums will buy special water from the LFS by the gallon or have large expensive R.O. systems. 

To add insult to injury, they make you pay more for water so they can buy this industrial waste( the manufacturers of this product should be paying you to take this stuff off their hands) 

I am not sure what the best way to fix this problem is? Ballot initiative or maybe the new Trump administration will do something to stop this? I don't even know who is pushing to put this in the water in the first place? Big Dental ? If I want to rinse my teeth with fluoride, I can buy my own products to do that without ingesting the stuff.

I 100% agree about needing to stop fluoride


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## Overwatch (Nov 26, 2016)

nel said:


> Most of them don't call themselves "fish experts", they just let us watch how they're doing things and what works for them. I don't need to treat my water too, so what, should I write in my journal "I'm not treating my water, but remember you may need to."? Every guide on how to set up fish tank says you should treat the water.


They both have had professional booths setup at Aquarium conventions, dedicated websites to sell things,etc... This is not just a casual hobbyist sharing some videos on youtube. You have to pay big money to get a booth at a convention. I know because my father's company use to do it. 

They so see themselves as experts or guru's in the aquarium industry yet they don't acknowledge chloramines. One because he uses well water from his tap and the other one because they think everything using chlorine and does not understand what chloramines are or how they work.


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## Overwatch (Nov 26, 2016)

longgonedaddy said:


> I've watched YouTube videos of drunk 22 year olds trying to do a backflip off a roof into a kiddie pool. I don't consider them expert stuntmen.
> 
> Get a book from a reputable source, consult forums like this one where the collective knowledge is outstanding, do research on what you're putting in your tank, from the hard materials to water, to food, to livestock. Gather info, and formulate a plan. Know what needs to be done,don't take shortcuts, until you are the expert. And when you're an expert, you'll realize that most shortcuts in this hobby are detrimental in one way or another and you'll need to account for that.
> 
> And most importantly, stop blaming others for your mistake. Yes, I know you feel bad, I've been there. I doubt anyone on this forum hasn't made some critical error along the way in fishkeeping. We all learned from what we did, and did things better the next time. If you haven't learned better husbandry practices from this, find another hobby, preferably one without living creatures.


Some people to on Forums in order to " troll" people with false information. My brother had a hard drive issue and someone told him to run the strongest magnets he could find repeatedly across the hard drive( which would have destroyed it by the way). 

The guy was not a new user either, he had a long history on the forum for years. ( He actually got banned for that troll when I wrote a letter for the forum administrators because that was done maliciously with the intent to harm " I don't know what processed him to write that but he did. 

I would bet you that those guys are on forums telling people their advice as well as well as trade shows for the aquarium industry. He said you if you don't want to spend money on dechlorinator, leave the water sit overnight and it will be fine. He also pointed to a used paint bucket which looks like it was used for paint and had paint all over the bucket. 

I originally thought he said a few days but it was even worse then I originally thought. It was just " overnight" ( Video Ghetto Aquarium) 

The other guy just fills his water from the tap without any products right from the tap. 

If you doubt that they said or demonstrated these things, I can post the video online for all to see or add a youtube link. In addition, tap water got a lot more dangerous with the addition of Chloramines. Unless you live in an area in which the water was losing all the chlorine before it reached your house, they should of left it with Chlorine. I don't know if they are trolls or just ignorant of chloramines. 

Where I live, you can only find 1 area in the entire city that does not use chloramines. Everything has been converted to chloramines. 

Anyway, someone asked me where I got that idea and I answered the question honestly. I'm not suing anyone or asking for money, just answered a question honestly about where I got the idea.


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

Don't jump at the first thing you see, read or hear like an over-excited 8 yr old ADHD kid after a raspberry softdrink.

Education is the key, not passing blame.


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## Overwatch (Nov 26, 2016)

jr125 said:


> I think the main distinction here is whether or not you are intending the information you are sharing is to be used as a guide to others or not. If so you should probably disclose situations that might/would require a different course of action.


Yes exactly !!! Very good point. :thumbsup: They are creating information to act as a guide on how to do something from their so called " expertise"

In one case, no water treatment whatsoever in the other case only leaving it in a bucket overnight whereas Chloramine last for weeks. I'm not even sure if overnight is enough for chlorine. 

Thank you for the very good point.


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## Overwatch (Nov 26, 2016)

Audionut said:


> Don't jump at the first thing you see, read or hear like an over-excited 8 yr old ADHD kid after a raspberry softdrink.
> 
> Education is the key, not passing blame.


I was asked a question and answered the question I was asked. 

Seems like there is always a blame the victim mentality. 

If you follow instructions or directions which are incorrect. 

If you purchase a product and the instructions are not translated correctly and while following their instructions you end up breaking it. It is not completely your fault. I believe the courts have agreed with this as well which are probably why there are so many warning labels on products we buy. 

Following the guide on someone who has a dedicated youtube channel, website and travels to aquarium convention or aquarium convention is not unreasonable. 

For example, youtube video also say you can use superglue to attach coral frags and plant. 
To me and the average person this sounds insane. My experience with superglue has been has been trying to repair my radar detector and having the fumes from this superglue destroying all the electronics so the detector never worked right again. I seen it in movies using the fumes from it to see finger prints on items when placed near superglue in an enclosed container. 

You are not suppose to get close to it because smelling it could cause brain damage and people are recommend putting it in a Aquarium with delicate fish which are so fragile that you can't even waste ornaments in soap and water even if you rinse it off well. 

Yet somehow superglue is aquarium safe. 

Also, adding salt to a freshwater aquarium seems insane. Yet people do it all the time when treating diseases. I would bet you the average person( or apparently these 2 people in the industry) even know how deadly tap water is. 


Now consider we are talking about an invisible chemical that you can't see, smell, etc...

People with youtube channels say the following things: 
1. Using superglue in an Aquarium for plants, corals,etc. = Obviously OK
2. Using some salt in Freshwater aquariums to treat disease = Obviously OK
3. Using tap water in Freshwater aquariums =Obviously FALSE information and Instant DEATH.

So things are not always as them seem or as obvious as you might think. Secondly following instructions from someone who puts up a guide and their profession is in the fish industry would be considered reasonable especially when dealing with something invisible. 

In any event, I was asked a question and I answered the question. I don't understand what you people are objecting to? Answering a question honestly. There are some high profile people with dedicated aquarium youtube channels and website that don't know about water chemistry or chloramines or the current state of US water treatment. 

In addition, when these points have been bough up in the comment section, they have been either replied to with insults or claims that they have followed the advice without any problems.

If a doctor gives you the wrong medicine and almost kills you, should you have known better then to trust a doctor? If the blame 100% your fault if you took the medicine that the doctor told you to? 

I don't think so.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)




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## longgonedaddy (Dec 9, 2012)

Overwatch said:


> Seems like there is always a blame the victim mentality.


What are you talking about? I don't see anyone blaming your dead livestock. They're the only victims here.


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