# RODI balancing



## psych (Jan 7, 2013)

I have nothing to add, but wondering which unit did you buy? I am contemplating purchasing one to help soften my water.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Test a few more things, if you would. 

Test the RO water right out of the unit, then after you aerate it overnight:
GH, KH, pH, TDS. 
A new RO unit should test so close to zero GH and KH that hobby tests cannot read the tiny trace of stuff. TDS meter might read single digits. 
While you would think the pH ought to be 7.0, it often is not. 

After sitting overnight the GH, KH and TDS should test the same (hopefully zero, or single digits for the TDS meter). 
pH will probably come down (if it was up) as CO2 from the air mixes with the water. 

Then be VERY careful and add EXACTLY the amounts called for on the products you are using and see what you get. It is easier to use a reasonable/small amount of product in a larger amount of water rather than a tiny amount of material in a small amount of water. 

You can also test baking soda:
1 teaspoon of baking soda added to 30 gallons of water ought to raise the KH by 2 degrees. You could work that formula down to 1/8 tsp in 1 gallon raises the KH by 8 degrees.

When I was using RO I used Seachem Equilibrium for GH and baking soda for KH.


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## All4Fish (Jun 23, 2014)

psych said:


> I have nothing to add, but wondering which unit did you buy? I am contemplating purchasing one to help soften my water.


http://www.purewaterproducts.com/
I have had excellent support from this company; have a double counter top filter from them as well. Great range of cartridges and totally customizable based on your needs. I got the countertop RODO unit customized.

Bump:


Diana said:


> Test a few more things, if you would.
> 
> Test the RO water right out of the unit, then after you aerate it overnight:
> GH, KH, pH, TDS.
> ...


Initially, I tested the RO water and it was at 1dGH, 1dKH 6.6 pH and 0 TDS. But I will repeat tomorrow and test again as you suggested.


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## All4Fish (Jun 23, 2014)

Hi, I filled a bucket with 4 gallons RODI (does have a prefilter) water and tested again; was at 2dGH, 2dKH, 6.8 pH, 0 TDS. I aerated it and let it sit for 24 hours and tested again. Was still at 2dGH, 2dKH, 6.8+ pH. I added 1/4 t baking soda, aerated and tested again in 24 hours. Results were 2dGH, 4dKH and 8 pH, 73 TDS. I am totally confused now. Does the pH rise because of the baking soda and higher KH or something else? Diana, any comments on what I can do to use this water for my fish mix?


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

RO should have nothing that alters the pH, so the 6.8 you are getting after aerating it is typical. RO water will take in CO2 from the air, and the pH will stabilize somewhere under 7.0. Then, adding carbonates (baking soda) will indeed raise the KH and pH.
I am concerned that you are testing 2 degrees each GH and KH in the RO water. Which test kit are you using? 
Also, the TDS meter is showing zero, but there is something in there giving you GH and KH readings? Does not sound right. I wonder if the test kits for GH and KH are off. 

The pH change with that small dose of baking soda is extreme. 
When I dose that much baking soda I am only getting a shift from about 6 to 6.2 (3 different testing kits), and the KH comes up from zero (2 different testing methods) to 2 degrees. This is not quite the same as you got. 1/4 tsp in 7.5 gallons ought to give you 2 degrees of KH. You got twice as much change in KH. Either your 1/4 tsp was mounded up, or the test kit is not accurate. 

Oh well, lets say that is just what happens, so far. 

Now, do you have any source of peat moss, oak leaves, alder cones or almost any other clean, pure organic matter? Not potting soil that may have other ingredients, and read the label on the peat moss to make sure it has no fertilizers or surfactants. 
Add a handful to the 4 gallons and stir. Let it sit overnight and test. The pH should drop. The GH and KH should not, or maybe the GH might come down a little. A small enough change that it is hard to see, in most cases, though I do remember one post from someone who saw a big drop in both GH and KH from adding peat moss.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Buried down in this thread is a LOT of chemistry that a member was helping me with. It may be a lot (LOT) longer than you want to read, but I learned a lot about PH and buffers when I worked through it. 

Long chemistry thread

As to testing RODI for dKH and dGH - just don't. Unless you are not making good RODI water, the test kits just can't really test it. I mean the right answer is zero -- so how do you put in zero drops and get a color change? If you trust your TDS meter and it's zero, you are likely good. PH in RODI water varies all over the place based on temperature and aeration, it will not necessarily be 7.0. Don't worry about it -- the slightest addition of acids or bases will make it swing wildly until you add some buffer.

One thing I'm coming to understand is absent injected CO2, the PH you get is the PH determined primarily by temperature and dKH. Attempting to get lower and higher is somewhat possible but mostly an exercise in frustration. Look at this chart: 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2042016&postcount=2

Ignore the colors, and look for CO2 values of about 3 which is what you will get in a low tech tank.

So with dKH=2 you are going to be nearly off the chart on the right about 7.5 or so. 

This calculator: 

http://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/CO2LevelFresh.php

has a bigger range and adjusts for temperature, but it works backwards for a low tech tank. You have to experiment with PH to see when you get about 3ppm CO2. 

But the reality that took me ages to get to is that in a straightforward environment -- whatever pH you get by adding the buffer (baking soda) is what you get. 

Also the more buffer you add the less the PH swings by night/day cycle and other factors. So too low is not good. Somewhere 2+ is probably easiest to use.

FWIW.


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## All4Fish (Jun 23, 2014)

Interesting, thank you! I have been loosing fish and suspected it was a CO2 issue so I added air stones and tried to keep dKH up with baking soda and peat. pH would not budge from 7.4. I am now thinking with all RO water I should shoot for a 7.2 pH and use acid/alkaline buffers; keep dKH at 7 to 8. Is this correct logic? Or is it even possible to get dKH at that level in RO water?

PS - using the calculator link gives different results! If I enter 7DKH, 7.2pH, 80 degrees I get 11.33 ppm CO2 which is not good. The chart shows 14 which is in an ok range. Is this due to temperature variations? So if temperature is also a critical factor, it seems that until I get my RO balance, my temp of 77 is too low and I should raise it?


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

All4Fish said:


> Interesting, thank you! I have been loosing fish and suspected it was a CO2 issue so I added air stones and tried to keep dKH up with baking soda and peat. pH would not budge from 7.4. I am now thinking with all RO water I should shoot for a 7.2 pH and use acid/alkaline buffers to keep dKH at 7 to 8. Is this correct logic?
> 
> PS - using the calculator link gives different results! If I enter 7DKH, 7.2pH, 80 degrees I get 11.33 ppm CO2 which is not good. The chart shows 14 which is in an ok range. Is this due to temperature variations? So if temperature is also a critical factor, it seems that until I get my RO balance, my temp of 77 is too low and I should raise it?


I was mixing Seachem Alkaline and Acid buffers together per their instruction to get PH and it wasn't working. IN that thread above, Joe Roun (clearly a chemistry master of some sort) convinced me that the acid buffer is both a bogus name, and not needed, and wouldn't work. I was convincing myself it wouldn't work, as my tanks always settled in around 7.6-7.8 no matter how I mixed in the acid buffer. Which is pretty consistent with the calculator's results. If you look starting at about post 104 in that thread you'll see that discussion.

And yes, temperature is very relevant.


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## MissileBear (Aug 6, 2013)

I worked with another hobbyist for a long time to come up with a way of reconstituting RO water to a Amazon river like parameter set ( I realize there are many Amazon river basin parameters. I can provide specifics if interested). I never liked adding tap water back to RO. I tried some of the pre-mixes; they were expensive and some were really questionable. Others contained buffers that would cause changes in parameters, sometimes days after the chemicals were added.

Now I use a mix of calcium chloride, Epsom salt, marine salt (reef mix), baking soda, and a little bit of lemon juice.


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## All4Fish (Jun 23, 2014)

Linwood said:


> I was mixing Seachem Alkaline and Acid buffers together per their instruction to get PH and it wasn't working. IN that thread above, Joe Roun (clearly a chemistry master of some sort) convinced me that the acid buffer is both a bogus name, and not needed, and wouldn't work. I was convincing myself it wouldn't work, as my tanks always settled in around 7.6-7.8 no matter how I mixed in the acid buffer. Which is pretty consistent with the calculator's results. If you look starting at about post 104 in that thread you'll see that discussion.
> 
> And yes, temperature is very relevant.


I read through all your links and tried to absorb it in my diminished brain today! Joe is awesome as well. Your post around #103 sounds just like what I am trying to do. So have you found a way to get the results you want?


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## All4Fish (Jun 23, 2014)

MissileBear said:


> I worked with another hobbyist for a long time to come up with a way of reconstituting RO water to a Amazon river like parameter set ( I realize there are many Amazon river basin parameters. I can provide specifics if interested). I never liked adding tap water back to RO. I tried some of the pre-mixes; they were expensive and some were really questionable. Others contained buffers that would cause changes in parameters, sometimes days after the chemicals were added.
> 
> Now I use a mix of calcium chloride, Epsom salt, marine salt (reef mix), baking soda, and a little bit of lemon juice.


Hi, can you share the mix and the resulting water parameters? I need all the information I can find as I am just not getting good results with anything yet. Thank you!


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

MissileBear said:


> Now I use a mix of calcium chloride, Epsom salt, marine salt (reef mix), baking soda, and a little bit of lemon juice.


If you add a bit of thyme and rosmary, you can also use it for a great turkey brine. :wink:



All4Fish said:


> I read through all your links and tried to absorb it in my diminished brain today! Joe is awesome as well. Your post around #103 sounds just like what I am trying to do. So have you found a way to get the results you want?


Yes. Well, and no.

I've convinced myself you cannot have a non-CO2-injected tank with both good buffers (to reduce ph swings) and stay near neutral. I would say Seachem really has misled people with their "acid buffer" in that regard.

So yes, I'm happy living about 7.6-7.8, keeping hardness in the dKH=4 range, and adjusting dGH a bit higher as I like snails and shrimp and think that helps. It's easy to mix, cheap (once I use up my Alkaline Buffer and switch to Baking Soda). Though I'm tempted to still use Equilibrium as mixing that up seems a bit more complex. 

But... are you doing fresh or salt? I think MissleBear's formula is for salt, and mine is for fresh.


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## All4Fish (Jun 23, 2014)

Linwood, thanks! I forget there are salt people here too; I sold my salt tank years ago and switched to fresh planted as I was feeling guilty about wild caught fish. My tank pH is 7.4 and LFS keeps angels, rams in RO at 6.8; I have lost those fish and am giving up (except 2 GBR still fine so go figure). They keep other tropicals, my furcata, rummynose, cory, at 7.2 tap water so I was trying to get my pH down a bit (as I was loosing fish). They suggested Seachem Neutral Regulator, but I noticed it has phosphates in it, plus it did not budge my pH. So they said to add acid buffer, but Seachem does not recommend acid buffer with Neutral Regulator; need to use Acid Regulator - UGH!!! Back to what you said and just forget trying to buffer. BTW, also tried peat moss and leaves, but hated the color of the water with how much I had to use.

So back to simple; I think I will just keep dKH at 4 with baking soda. Should I be concerned though about the chart results of 5ppm CO2? 

I have tried both Equilibrium and Replenish and need to keep testing as I think they both raised pH. I may just settle for ph of 7.4 and forget angels and go with praecox rainbows. What fish do you have?


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Short of perhaps imported angels, I think you'll find you can be in the high 7's and everything will be alive and happy. Our water generally in this area is high PH, and most people I've seen keeping and raising angels just use the tap water. 

I'm coming around to being a minimalist. There's a lot of "stuff" you need to add to keep a healthy tank, but I do not think it's worth fighting difficult battles. If my hardness aims at mid 7's, I'll be happy there and keep fish who are happy there (and most of what I read is that almost all normal community aquarium fish are). 

I have angels, congo tetras, boesemani rainbow, serpae tetra, raphael catfish, lots of bristlenose plecos, one oto (lots of quick deaths when I added those), and a bunch of Siamese algae eaters, plus ramshorn snails, MTS, and ghost shrimp. Everyone is happy and just about everyone of those is actually having babies in the tank.


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## bk. (Sep 27, 2014)

Linwood said:


> If you add a bit of thyme and rosmary, you can also use it for a great turkey brine. :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm in the same boat as both of you. Pure RODI, adding equilibrium and both alkaline and acid buffers. dGH and dKH both at 6, pH won't budge at around 7.4. 

I just racked me brain on that entire thread roud: but am a little disappointed there isn't a sure fire solution to lower and stabilize the pH around 7. 

So since you've given up on adding acid buffer are you just adding the same amount of alkaline buffer as you were when you were mixing the two? And just not adding the acid buffer with it?


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

bk. said:


> I just racked me brain on that entire thread roud: but am a little disappointed there isn't a sure fire solution to lower and stabilize the pH around 7.
> 
> So since you've given up on adding acid buffer are you just adding the same amount of alkaline buffer as you were when you were mixing the two? And just not adding the acid buffer with it?


Sure fire solution: inject CO2 with a PH controller.

Alternative: add a lot less alkaline buffer and you get lower PH. 

To answer your question I first need to say that I was adjusting the Alkaline buffer upward based on Seachem's comment that the Acid buffer reduces dKH by 0.6 "per dose". So I was previously adding more than their instructions directly called for, and now am adding what their instructions call for which is less than before.

As an example, for 20 gallons I add 2 tablespoons (6 teaspons or 32 grams) of Equilibrium and a bit less than 2 teaspoons (10 grams) of Alkaline buffer. My hope is that gives me a dKH=4 and dGH=6 and I'm landing close to that, and somewhere about 7.8 ph.


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## bk. (Sep 27, 2014)

Linwood said:


> Sure fire solution: inject CO2 with a PH controller.
> 
> Alternative: add a lot less alkaline buffer and you get lower PH.
> 
> ...



Thanks Linwood! I'm in the process of adding pressurized co2 and after looking at the table you posted previously I'm assuming there will be some issues getting the correct concentration of co2 with the dKH and pH combo I'm currently experiencing. 

Your thread is a great read though and is quite challenging. Sorry to hear that Joe will be leaving the forum as it seems that guy has a great amount of knowledge. As an engineer myself Chemistry is something I didn't take as seriously as I probably should have. Now getting into this hobby, I'm with you...regretting that decision


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

bk. said:


> Thanks Linwood! I'm in the process of adding pressurized co2 and after looking at the table you posted previously I'm assuming there will be some issues getting the correct concentration of co2 with the dKH and pH combo I'm currently experiencing.
> 
> Your thread is a great read though and is quite challenging. Sorry to hear that Joe will be leaving the forum as it seems that guy has a great amount of knowledge. As an engineer myself Chemistry is something I didn't take as seriously as I probably should have. Now getting into this hobby, I'm with you...regretting that decision


Yeah. Somewhere middle of my career I even regretted not taking a couple law courses too. Amazing how many things we think are pointless come back.

Anyway... I do not know CO2 injection but my impression is that, with good diffusion, the injection determines your ph, and all other things being equal as you add co2 you'll get much lower ph.


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## All4Fish (Jun 23, 2014)

Hi all again! It is frustrating that the LFS keeps their angels, rams at 6.8 and said that is why I lost mine (my pH was at 7.4). I have been having issues with pH fluctuating when lights to off so I put airstones on a timer. Just added a pH monitor and found that I got my pH down to 7.28 from 7.4 (will keep slowly trying to lower) reading at 5pm. Next morning reading was at 7.35. Temp is at 80 which LFS recommended, but I feel is too high for cory and hillstream loach? Is this an ok swing on pH? 

http://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/CO2LevelFresh.php
Is this only for injected CO2? Should I be concerned with CO2 readings of 4? 

I think I came close to flunking college chemistry btw! I try to read and understand but that part of my brain does not work on auto pilot! I did learn everything else I needed in my career on the job, but this planted tank chemistry is getting me.

Happy New Year and hope Joe is well.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

All4Fish said:


> It is frustrating that the LFS keeps their angels, rams at 6.8 and said that is why I lost mine (my pH was at 7.4).


Interesting. 6 points is a fairly large shock I guess, but I know Angels can do well and breed in much higher PH. But the change might have done them in.

But I am really out of my depth there, since I just followed the higher PH the LFS' use around here.



All4Fish said:


> http://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/CO2LevelFresh.php
> Is this only for injected CO2? Should I be concerned with CO2 readings of 4?


All I know really is what Joe said in that other threads; my impression is that CO2 isn't going to go high in non-injected environments, but I do not know really what the possible range is. Hopefully someone else will chime in.

Bump: If you haven't seen this thread it's got a lot of good info:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=78505


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## All4Fish (Jun 23, 2014)

Wow, wonder how I can get some of the angels from your Florida region with that nice high pH!? Do you know of any suppliers there who ship? 
I will have to ask my LFS why they keep their angels at 6.8 as I know they do have a Florida supplier and all are captive bred. Water here tends to be hard, but the LFS store is on a different water supply system from mine (there's is better). I know my community adds something to keep pH high. 
I am still experimenting with adding the right amount of equilibrium and baking soda (forget the buffer game) to get a decent GH, KH and pH. I thought I needed to keep the KH high so pH is more stable. It seems that whatever I add, the pH goes high and my brain does not 'get' this yet. I claim old age.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

I think you do have it right, in non-injected environments high dKH = high PH. And water companies raise Ph to keep the water from being as corrosive as it otherwise would be. In my area some of that comes from the sodium hypochlorite they add for sanitizing, but they also inject additional sodium hydroxide (i.e. Lye) to raise it further. 

As to others - no. Most LFS here buy from Segrest Farms, but they are wholesale only. There's a guy I read about starting a hatchery (here) but I suspect he's a long way away from selling, and my guess is he will also be wholesale, but you might ask him if you are a member on that forum. He may also know people. 

However all that said -- check other LFS's. They may not all use the same chemistry.

Or better yet -- just acclimate -- do you have a quarantine tank? (I'm fighting a battle with Camallanus worms, so I am now much more of a believer in QT's). If so, just force it down to a low PH and associated dKH, and raise it over a period of weeks with them in it, and I suspect they will be quite happy.


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## All4Fish (Jun 23, 2014)

My LFS buys from Segrest as well, so I still have to ask them why they keep the pH so low for angels, rams. There are not many other LFS in my area anymore.
So you have angels and they are doing well in your 7.6 pH, 4dKH? Wow, maybe I will try again with a QT. I have rummynose, cory, german blue rams, furcata rainbow and decided to add praecox as I was told they would be hardier in my tank than angels. 
So, just so I really know I get it, if I add baking soda to my RO to get 3-4dKH, equilibrium to keep about a 6dGH I should just let the pH be whatever it will be?
Thanks for your patience with me, my first planted tank obviously! How did you diagnose the worms?


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

All4Fish said:


> My LFS buys from Segrest as well, so I still have to ask them why they keep the pH so low for angels, rams. There are not many other LFS in my area anymore.
> ....
> 
> Thanks for your patience with me, my first planted tank obviously! How did you diagnose the worms?


I don't know that they buy angels from them, but most of their stock. A lot of people down here raise angels as a hobby, they may get them there also. Not sure.

Worms: Hanging out of their vents. Not pretty.


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## MissileBear (Aug 6, 2013)

My apologies for the late reply. 

I use a 55 gallon drum for mixing my water. I end up adding an addition 5-6 gallons of RO during the water change which dilutes the prepared water slightly. I just purchased new test kits tonight; a fresh batch if water test results:

7-8* GH
4* KH
6.2 pH
TDS: 214 (this is higher than expected...maybe from the peat moss?)

This is a slightly harder, higher pH than normally found in the Amazon basin, but I find the water to become more acidic and softer by the time a water change is performed. 

21.45 g CaCl2 x 2 H20
9.15 g MgSO4 x 7 H2O (epsom salt)

This provides a 4:1 Calcium to Magnesium ratio.

To get the KH to about 4*, I mix 14.05 g baking soda. This also increases the GH a bit.

I throw in about a teaspoon of marine salt for the extra micros you don't get elsewhere. A filter bag full of peat moss is soaked for the duration of the water sitting, and I add about a 2 tablespoons of lemon juice. The water is bubbled for at least 24 hours after mixing.


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## msebar (Mar 13, 2014)

MissileBear said:


> My apologies for the late reply.
> 
> I use a 55 gallon drum for mixing my water. I end up adding an addition 5-6 gallons of RO during the water change which dilutes the prepared water slightly. I just purchased new test kits tonight; a fresh batch if water test results:
> 
> ...


Do you have a planted tank? 
I came to understand salt = no in a planted tank. 
What does the lemon juice do? Bring down the PH? 
When soaking peat does it turn the color of your water much?

I am getting ready to do 2 55g drums with RODI. I currently have angels and discus. Angels are breeding and giving me fry when the eggs don't get eaten. Currently running 7.6 to 7.8 PH with CO2 I live in South Florida


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## MissileBear (Aug 6, 2013)

msebar said:


> Do you have a planted tank?
> I came to understand salt = no in a planted tank.
> What does the lemon juice do? Bring down the PH?
> When soaking peat does it turn the color of your water much?
> ...


Yes, I have a planted tank. I use the same water with all my planted tanks at this point. Salt(s) are generally not needed in planted tanks as the water parameters will not require it when you are using tap water. Additionally, branded aquarium salts are usually composed mostly of sodium chloride which will have a negative affect on plants. I do not use sodium chloride salt for reconstitution.

You have to reconstitute the RO water; plants & fish will need some GH & KH for proper health (even blackwater/softwater loving species). Calcium & magnesium are notably the most important. Most micro mixes are not going to account for the total magnesium needed, and calcium is not going to be found in micro/macro mixes (assuming you are using the common ferts like KNO3, MKP, K2SO4, CSM+B, etc). Calcium and magnessium both cause nutrient deficiencies if they are lacking.

The lemon juice is more for the benefit of the fish; any change in pH is negligible (several tsp in a 180 gallon).

The peat moss will add some tannins to the water, so you will get a slight tea coloration.

There are several threads about water chemistry here in this forum that discuss the relationship of ph/KH/GH/TDS and how it relates to our tanks.


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## msebar (Mar 13, 2014)

MissileBear said:


> My apologies for the late reply.
> 
> I use a 55 gallon drum for mixing my water. I end up adding an addition 5-6 gallons of RO during the water change which dilutes the prepared water slightly. I just purchased new test kits tonight; a fresh batch if water test results:
> 
> ...


what is the x 2 mean in your mix?
21.45 g CaCl2 x 2 H20
9.15 g MgSO4 x 7 H2O (epsom salt)


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## MissileBear (Aug 6, 2013)

msebar said:


> what is the x 2 mean in your mix?
> 21.45 g CaCl2 x 2 H20
> 9.15 g MgSO4 x 7 H2O (epsom salt)


That represents hydrate; the CaCL2 is dihydrous, while the MgSO4 is heptahydrate.


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## msebar (Mar 13, 2014)

MissileBear said:


> My apologies for the late reply.
> 
> I use a 55 gallon drum for mixing my water. I end up adding an addition 5-6 gallons of RO during the water change which dilutes the prepared water slightly. I just purchased new test kits tonight; a fresh batch if water test results:
> 
> ...


MissileBear, 
Thanks for the reply. I have a few more questions.

What kind of peat moss do you use and where do you get it from?
What kind and brand name is the marine salt you use?
When you add your macros and micros for plant ferts does your numbers change much and what is your TDS


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## MissileBear (Aug 6, 2013)

msebar said:


> MissileBear,
> Thanks for the reply. I have a few more questions.
> 
> What kind of peat moss do you use and where do you get it from?
> ...


I use regular Canadian peat moss; think it came from Lowes/HD. It's free of additives and listed as organic (I would assume most will be "organic" as peat moss is simply cut out of the bog and not grown).

I use Instant Ocean Reef crystals for trace elements. It is mostly sodium chloride but again I do not add very much to the mix.

I don't measure my water once I add it to any of my tanks, so I don't know what numbers are like after adding ferts. I'll do some drop tests next time I dose.


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## msebar (Mar 13, 2014)

MissileBear said:


> I use regular Canadian peat moss; think it came from Lowes/HD. It's free of additives and listed as organic (I would assume most will be "organic" as peat moss is simply cut out of the bog and not grown).
> 
> I use Instant Ocean Reef crystals for trace elements. It is mostly sodium chloride but again I do not add very much to the mix.
> 
> I don't measure my water once I add it to any of my tanks, so I don't know what numbers are like after adding ferts. I'll do some drop tests next time I dose.


do you add your ferts to the drum before the water change or directly in the tank after the water change?


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## MissileBear (Aug 6, 2013)

I add ferts to the tanks directly and individually as I don't always dose at the same time. Additionally, I use the same water for my snail tanks but I do not add ferts to said tanks.


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## xfatdannx (Mar 11, 2014)

I am also balancing my RO/DI water but have a different question, dont want to high-jack your thread but i didn't want to start a new one on almost the same topic.

Im going from 100% Tap to 50/50 RO/Tap. I am doing this over an 8-10 week process as to not shock any flora or fauna. I do 25% wc weekly and am refilling with my 50/50 blend.

I had a couple questions for my tests to keep an eye on my dKH and dGH.

I saw people mentioning aerating their RO first...is this a necessity, if so, why?

Also, how long after wc should i wait to test GH/KH for accurate reading?
(using API liquid test kit)


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

xfatdannx said:


> I saw people mentioning aerating their RO first...is this a necessity, if so, why?
> 
> Also, how long after wc should i wait to test GH/KH for accurate reading?
> (using API liquid test kit)


Any water's ph varies depending on the amount of co2 dissolved in it. Tanks with injected co2 for example will measure about 1 full point (e.g. 7 -> 6) lower. 

RODI water (or distilled or any very low dKH source water) is more susceptible to ph change, and so will vary more widely based on whether it is in equilibrium with the atmosphere, hence to get a representative reading of what it will be like in your tank, the recommendation to aerate before adding. While necessary to get an accurate reading, whether it is necessary to aerate before adding (not testing), and especially if you are going to remineralize with either tap or added minerals is questionable (since the change is much smaller) but never harmful, and gives an opportunity for thorough mixing and temperature adjustment.

Note that when people say you should not have big changes in ph to avoid stressing your fish, it is really more about dKH (and maybe dGH) variations than actual ph, the ph is a symptom (in fully aerated water) more easily measured. In aerated water, if you change from 7 to 6 (or any big change), it is a sign of a huge difference in dKH, and associated TDS. 

If on the other hand water goes from 7 to 6 due to co2 aeration, that is "normal", in fact planted injected tanks do that large of a change every day as they go from lighted to dark, but are doing so without associated dKH/TDS changes, which is then not harmful. This is why I say the mixing is more about testing really than harm (especially when combined with tap and then mixed as you add to the tank).

There's no point to test real RODI for dKH or dGH, the answer is always going to be the same - zero. If in doubt if it is pure, a TDS meter is faster and more accurate way to tell. Aeration will not change this. If you plan to test the 50/50 mix, it will also be the same - about half the tap water. I do not actually know if the ph difference as it aerates will slightly affect those reading on the api kit, but my guess is that it is lost in the noise. Try it.

Regardless of all of these, bear in mind that temperature has a pretty big impact on low dKH water's ph as well, so if you mix your water at (say) 70 degress in a cool house, then heat it up in the tank (or before the tank), the ph changes as it reaches a new co2 equilibrium. All these various impacts makes routine testing of water before it is in the tank a bit of a mind game to make sure you account for everything.


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## MissileBear (Aug 6, 2013)

Linwood said:


> There's no point to test real RODI for dKH or dGH, the answer is always going to be the same - zero. If in doubt if it is pure, a TDS meter is faster and more accurate way to tell.


+1 testing RO water with drop kits can give wildly unreliable results. I use a TDS meter on my RO unit, which really is just to ensure that the membranes and such are doing their job.


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## xfatdannx (Mar 11, 2014)

thanks guys


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## msebar (Mar 13, 2014)

MissileBear said:


> That represents hydrate; the CaCL2 is dihydrous, while the MgSO4 is heptahydrate.


MissileBear, I wish I paid more attention in class back in the days. Never thought I would need this. So I am still confused. 

I purchased MgSO4 how do I turn it into MgSO4 x 7 H2O? I will take a guess but most likely wrong. Just add water? 

Same thing for CaCL2?

If adding water is not the correct answer then where can I buy them in the states.


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## msebar (Mar 13, 2014)

Bump


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## imcmaster (Jan 30, 2015)

At the risk of stepping in without reading this thread ... 

Magnesium sulphate can be found in various forms. A hydrate just means that water is part of the substance, in _some_ ratio.

For example, epsomite (or epsom salts) is Magnesium sulphate with 7 water molecules for each MgSO4 molecule (so it is called a heptahydrate). The composition leads to a crystallized shape.
In contrast, anhydrous magnesium sulphate contains no water, and is powdery.
You would not turn one into another, it is a matter of what you buy that contains MgSO4. Sounds like you bought the powder, and not the epsom salts?

Where I am going to stop is how to measure these out. Clearly if you have MgSO4 in the form of epsom salts, its density will differ from the powder form (because the heptahydrate form has the extra water molecules).

Hope the confusion over the heptahydrate is gone, and you can continue to measure ... Good luck ...


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## MissileBear (Aug 6, 2013)

msebar said:


> MissileBear, I wish I paid more attention in class back in the days. Never thought I would need this. So I am still confused.
> 
> I purchased MgSO4 how do I turn it into MgSO4 x 7 H2O? I will take a guess but most likely wrong. Just add water?
> 
> ...


Sorry to miss your earlier question.

Calcium chloride can be obtained in different forms. I used to purchase anyhydrous calcium chloride, but found that it readily absorbed too much moisture before I could finish it. I now get the CaCL2 dihydrate in bulk form - most marine supply stores (local & online) should carry it. I have purchased it through several sources in standard powdered form.

MgSO4 x 7 H2O should be standard "Epsom Salt". The brand I use is generic local store brand. The back of the box says "heptahydrate magnesium sulfate". 

Both can be found in different forms and your weights will vary depending on its form. Where did you purchase?


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## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

Thanks to msebar for the bump
and to MissileBear for the recipe and clarification.
I'm going to work from this recipe to see if I can offer / create better water for my GBR breeding journey.
Any advice on what I might need to change?
I am starting with ro with 0-10 tds or I could use ro/di with a constant 0 tds.
Anyone see or know of a big difference between the 2?
Sorry if I'm off topic?(thread jumping?)


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## msebar (Mar 13, 2014)

I got mine from green leaf aquariums. The bags label is MgSO4 but it is not powder it's crystal like little diamonds and clear in color. So I will assume that GLA has it miss labeled.

http://greenleafaquariums.com/aquarium-fertilizers-supplements/magnesium-sulfate.html


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## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

msebar said:


> I got mine from green leaf aquariums. The bags label is MgSO4 but it is not powder it's crystal like little diamonds and clear in color. So I will assume that GLA has it miss labeled.
> 
> http://greenleafaquariums.com/aquarium-fertilizers-supplements/magnesium-sulfate.html


 They don't claim it to be powder?
I just got 4lbs at CVS for $4.99.
100% magnesium sulfate. It is like rock salt.
It will dissolve in water.
You may just need to re calculate the weight since I believe MB used powder.
That's all.:icon_smil
Got new gh/kh test kit also!!!


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## msebar (Mar 13, 2014)

Coralbandit said:


> They don't claim it to be powder?
> I just got 4lbs at CVS for $4.99.
> 100% magnesium sulfate. It is like rock salt.
> It will dissolve in water.
> ...


As per the previous statements powder would be MgS04 and crystals would be 
MgS04 x 7H20. I don't have powder as mine looks like crystals. Look at the second image not the displayed one on the link in my prior post. The desription and title states it's MgS04 (powder). If I'am wrong someone please tell me so


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## MissileBear (Aug 6, 2013)

MgSO4 x 7H2O can be in crystal form or powder form. MgSO4 x 7H2O is the most common as it is the most stable as it will not absorb large amounts of water from normal air. If you have doubts, contact GLA. They are generally very responsive. If you have received something besides MgSO4 x 7H2O, I can do the math to give you the amount you would need, or even show you how to do it while maintaining the correct ratio of Mg to CA.

I use Epsom Salt (MgSO4 x 7H2O) - my formula (mentioned) uses this.

Curious why your RO water has 10 PPM TDS? RO water should have a TDS of 0


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## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

MissileBear said:


> Curious why your RO water has 10 PPM TDS? RO water should have a TDS of 0


 I'm thinking due to low pressure?
I can get 0 with the DI .


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## msebar (Mar 13, 2014)

MissileBear said:


> MgSO4 x 7H2O can be in crystal form or powder form. MgSO4 x 7H2O is the most common as it is the most stable as it will not absorb large amounts of water from normal air. If you have doubts, contact GLA. They are generally very responsive. If you have received something besides MgSO4 x 7H2O, I can do the math to give you the amount you would need, or even show you how to do it while maintaining the correct ratio of Mg to CA.
> 
> I use Epsom Salt (MgSO4 x 7H2O) - my formula (mentioned) uses this.


The light is now lit. Thanks. It seams as I do have MgSo4 and not the other. If I understand you correctly CaCl2 x 2 H20 is CaCL2 dihydrate and CaCl2 is anyhydrous calcium chloride which contains no water. 

After searching I can find the CaCl2 very easy and the CaCl2*2H2O I can't find at all. 

Can you give me the new values using MgSO4 and CaCl2?

Does the numbers change as I am using MgSo4 in my PPS pro dosing daily?


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## msebar (Mar 13, 2014)

Bump


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## msebar (Mar 13, 2014)

Did a little research and I hope this helps everyone out. If my numbers are not correct or I did something wrong please let me know. I think I have it correct.

MgSO4
Molar mass of MgSO4 is: 

Mg = 24.305
S = 32.066
O = 15.999
H = 1.008

Mg + S + O + O + O + O = 24.305 + 32.066 + 15.999 + 15.999 + 15.999 + 15.999 = 120.367 

Molar mass MgSO4.7H2O is: 

MgSO4 = 120.367

O = 15.999
H = 1.008

7H2O = H + H + H + H + H + H + H + H + H + H + H + H + H + H + O+ O+ O+ O+ O+ O+ O = 

1.008 + 1.008 + 1.008 + 1.008 + 1.008 + 1.008 + 1.008 + 1.008 + 1.008 + 1.008 + 1.008 + 1.008 + 1.008 + 1.008 + 15.999+ 15.999+ 15.999+ 15.999+ 15.999+ 15.999+ 15.999 = 126.105

MgSO4.7H2O = 120.367 + 126.105 = 246.472


If 120.367g of the MgSO4 is equivalent to 246.472g of the MgSO4.7H2O, then: 
12g of the MgSO4 is equivalent to ( 12/120.367) x 246.472 = 24.57g of MgSO4.7H2O

------------------------------------

CaCl2.2H2O
Molar mass of CaCl2 is: 

Ca = 40.078
CL = 35.453

Ca + CL + CL = 40.078 + 35.453 + 35.453 = 110.984

Molar mass of CaCl2.2H2O is:

CaCl2 = 110.984

O = 15.999
H = 1.008

2H2O = H + H + O + H + H + O = 1.008 + 1.008 + 5.999 + 1.008 + 1.008 + 5.999 = 16.03

CaCl2.2H2O = 110.984 + 16.03 = 127.014

If 110.984g of the CaCl2 is equivalent to 127.014g of the CaCl2.2H2O, then: 
12g of the CaCl2 is equivalent to (12/110.984) x 127.014 = 13.733g of CaCl2.2H2O


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## MissileBear (Aug 6, 2013)

I just received a reply back from GLA concerning their MgSO4. It is in fact heptahydrate:

"Hello!

You have Heptahydrate with a guaranteed analysis of:

9.7% Mg
9.7% Water soluble Mg
12% Sulphur

Good crystalline salts."

Can you confirm that you actually have anhydrous CaCl2? Does it react when you add it to water? If you leave some exposed to the air, does it become wet?


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## msebar (Mar 13, 2014)

I have not purchased it as of yet. I was not able to find anything else other then CACl2. Will this be fine?

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-bulk-calcium-chloride-aquarium-supplement.html


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## MissileBear (Aug 6, 2013)

BRS CaCl2 is dihydrate


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## msebar (Mar 13, 2014)

MissileBear said:


> BRS CaCl2 is dihydrate


ok great are my calculations correct on converting both chemicals

Bump:


MissileBear said:


> BRS CaCl2 is dihydrate


ok great are my calculations correct on converting both chemicals


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