# Overwhelmed by Info. Input Appreciated.



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Chanse27 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Chanse here, new member. So I have a rescue minnow that has sent me down the rabbit hole of the aquatic hobby. I've learned so much doing my own research and watching PLENTY of youtube videos. However, there is still a lot of conflicting info out there. As the info provided is not only back by science at times, but experience it's hard to really figure out what materials I really want to use. I have decided I want to try using the Walstad method for my tanks, as I like the lo-maintenance and lo-tech aspect as well as the aesthetics in the home.
> 
> ...


1) the ingredients list you cite for Kellogg's is the organic+ version I believe. You should try to find the regular organic garden soil (no +). It does not have as many additives. I haven't done it yet but I plan to use the regular one when I set up my own tank. Unfortunately the original potting soil mix has been discontinued in most stores.

2) Diana Walstad is a member of this forum and recently updated her recommendations to using safe t sorb as a gravel top. This product may be hard for you to find in California. If it is, Lowe's sells a product called oil dri which is very similar.

3) the API master test kit plus the additional gh kh kit.

4) if you are doing soil it is important to plant sooner rather than later. 

5) in her book Ms. Walstad mentions she will add livestock almost immediately. However that was not taking into account using a sts as a cap. It's unclear if this is still something she does. Since you are new to the hobby I suggest waiting the full month to cycle the tank properly.

6) the question you didn't ask but definitely should know about.. how often to do water changes when setting up your tank? A new soil substrate tank requires frequent water changes when new. Each water change remove 50% of the water. Typical advise for an active substrate tank is first week every day a water change. Second week every other day. Third week 3 times a week. Fourth week do it twice. After that for a walstad you will want to monitor conditions to see how often it really needs to happen. Once a month may not be out of the question depending on how well your tank is running.

Edit: you mentioned you already have a fish in a tank. Sorry if you already knew this, but to setup a walstad you need to start with a tank empty of water. Do not dump soil directly into a filled aquarium.


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Hello, Welcome to the hobby! A common misconception about bettas is that they need a tank of at least 10 gallons. A 1.5 gallon tank is really only good for housing snails and plants in. @minorhero has a very good test kit recommendation. It is affordable yet a accurate. What type of minnow is it? Generally minnows need a school to be happy and thrive.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Eco complete won’t be a good cap for soil, way to open and wide pore structure, won’t really cap anything, all soil nutrients will just leach into water column at a alarming rate. 

1” soil and 1-1.5” of 1-3mm sandy gravel works best. 

Caribsea Peace River


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

you can look up EP MINERALS Universal Absorbent,50 lb.,Bag, 7951, Tan/Gray on evilbay, I live in socal and it got delivered to me relatively quick.

i 2nd that eco-complete's grain size is a lil too large for capping soil with


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## Chanse27 (Aug 30, 2019)

MINORHERO:

Thank you for taking the time to read and your helpful response.

1. I'll look more into the less potent organic soil from Kellogg. What did you think of the EcoScraps I also mentioned? Would that work for now or do I need to just make a special order for something else?

2. I did notice her name on a few forums, really cool! I'll look more into her posts as well. Thank you for the suggestion, I'll research.

5. I'm not sure what sts is, gotta catch up on the forum lingo. But I have heard that as well.... would the one minnow work you think, or still recommend the full month? As of right now it's literally in a bucket of water with some pothos leaves I've clipped for cover/ some filtration, which was better than the sewage water he came in inside a plastic water bottle. I'm trying to set this tank up quick for him. 

6. Thank you so much for adding this info. My question to that is why so many water changes in the beginning, and so much? From other places I've read frequent water changes are not necessarily bad, just not recommended for no/low-tech tanks, and they say to only take about 25%? But this is something I'm still learning. I don't mind doing the water changes in the beginning just trying to understand. I can somewhat see the need for it however.

Hi there and thank you for that info, I will take that into consideration!

Not sure what type of minnow it is or if it even is a minnow. I will post a picture if I can figure it out. I'm still learning this site and hope I tagged you correctly haha! 

Last night I found some mosquito larvae in my cat's water bowl and netted them out to feed to lil Sharkbait. Very happy fish. Not sure what else to give it, so I've been giving it betta mix I had on hand.

I've read they need to be in groups, wha'ts the minimum? I was planning on having it in the 20gal with future shrimp to breed. So I know too many fish might be a lot fewer shrimp lol.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Really a walstad type tank is not the easiest to setup properly and can involve many weeks of frustrating times at startup till it gets settled in. And it really isn’t needed if your going to do simple floating plants, java fern and moss etc. Also some stem plants can grow at a alarming rate in that type of setup, so much so that plant maintenance and thinning can easily become as time consuming as changing water. 

Java fern and Moses grow on wood and don’t really need the rich soil substrate, they get all need water and wood or stones their mounted on. 

This thread by @united natures is perfect example of setting up a low tech with plain inert substrate. Nice tight pore structure to substrate, not to deep though, so all detritus stays on top of substrate where it should be. To me if you want low maintenance this is type of setup you should go for. Shrimp poop pretty much drives cycle in tank which feeds plants, plants grow at modest rate fueled by the modest light level and cycle is complete. It’s all about setting up a balance between substrates bio filter, plant load and fauna in tank. All you’d have to do is probably prune back those temple plant stems every couple of months and maybe change 20% water per month, so in a 20gal that’s 2-4gal once or twice a month.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1292157-75-gal-painted-fire-red-shrimp-only.html

That’s also another factor you have to consider, water hardness etc that you’ve got to use. Unless you’ve got a RO sometimes you have to build your plan around what water parameters you have to work with, some plants and animals may thrive in your water, others will fail miserably.

Also you really need to figure out what that minnow is, it might not end up being so small or it might be so voracious it will decimate any shrimp population you introduce. My thought is being a native species it’s probably a no go.


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## Chanse27 (Aug 30, 2019)

DaveKS said:


> Really a walstad type tank is not the easiest to setup properly and can involve many weeks of frustrating times at startup till it gets settled in. And it really isn’t needed if your going to do simple floating plants, java fern and moss etc. Also some stem plants can grow at a alarming rate in that type of setup, so much so that plant maintenance and thinning can easily become as time consuming as changing water.
> 
> Java fern and Moses grow on wood and don’t really need the rich soil substrate, they get all need water and wood or stones their mounted on.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the link, he's got a beautiful setup and you're right that's pretty much what I'm going for. 

As for the water, that's honestly my next concern. Our tap here in the valley is pretty harsh. Do I buy distilled? Do I use a chemical solution? What's the recommendation for water for cherry shrimp? I see a lot of people use RO, is there an affordable method to obtaining such water? We were looking into certain small and easy filtration systems, like a shower head filter, or smaller attachable piece for our own shower/kitchen water anyhow. Because we rent, we aren't going to invest hundreds into a complete home filtration system until we are in our own place a few years down the road.

I'm going to post a picture of the minnow and maybe someone on here can help figure out its species.



DaveKS said:


> Really a walstad type tank is not the easiest to setup properly and can involve many weeks of frustrating times at startup till it gets settled in. And it really isn’t needed if your going to do simple floating plants, java fern and moss etc. Also some stem plants can grow at a alarming rate in that type of setup, so much so that plant maintenance and thinning can easily become as time consuming as changing water.
> 
> Java fern and Moses grow on wood and don’t really need the rich soil substrate, they get all need water and wood or stones their mounted on.
> 
> ...



I thought I posted a response to this. These forum sites are confusing to me at times, so I apologize for being a mess about it. 

Thank you for the link, he really does have a nice setup, and pretty much what I am wanting. 

The water was my next concern. I do see a lot of people using RO water for their tanks, however looking up some of the filtration systems, the price and installment of the ones I've seen aren't what I'm really going for. We rent for now, so we were wanting to install something more simple and affordable like a complete shower head filter, or a filter piece that can attach to the shower head. And something as well for the kitchen. Buying distilled can get a bit crazy without the 5gal jugs. So what would be a good rec for cherry shrimp? I was going to even buy a Brita like filter.

I will post pic of minnow and hopefully someone on here can identify it.

Bump:


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## germanblueramlover (Jun 9, 2013)

Looks like some type of mosquitofish to me, or could even be a female guppy?

Possible to get any pictures from the side?

The reason for so many water changes at first with the active soil substrate is due to the amount of ammonia etc it can leach - you don't want to burn your plants or stall your cycle if levels are too high.


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## Chanse27 (Aug 30, 2019)

Yes this is the mystery minnow that was being pumped out of a water truck at a job site in Yolo county, CA. I do not know exactly if it is native, could be a delta smelt? or something? It was going to dry up in a puddle so it was "rescued" all the way to the central valley. 

It's about 1.5" long, and the color lightened up quite a bit after being removed from the sewage water. 

Sorry I cannot take pics from the side as you can see it's in a makeshift tank (mixing tub) at the moment.


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## germanblueramlover (Jun 9, 2013)

Check out western mosquitofish, that would be my guess (or a similar species, there are a lot of identical-to-non-scientists types). Looks just like the ones I used to have. In that case I don't think you need to worry about getting a school of them, although if you wanted friends for it guppies would probably work well. I don't think it's a delta smelt, the head looks too blunt to me, and they are usually found where salt and freshwater meet - Yolo county seems a little too far inland for that.

I thought that might be the case about photos, not to worry! If you can see the lower fin, you should be able to sex it quite easily if it is a livebearer - males have an elongated fin, whereas females have the standard triangle shape.

Re RO water - best to check your tap params before worrying about that too much. Not sure about Cali water but I'd imagine it's probably fine to use as is. Just add dechlorinator and you're good to go. Especially since this fish was found out "in the wild" so to speak anyway - Cali water is what it's used to!


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## Chanse27 (Aug 30, 2019)

Thank you so much for that info! 

What dechlorinator would you recommend? Or do they all pretty much work the same?


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## germanblueramlover (Jun 9, 2013)

I think they're all much of a muchness. I've been using Prime, like most other people on this forum - it's supposed to also be able to neutralise ammonia in case of a sudden spike, and I *think* claims to be better for planted tanks?

But I doubt it will have much meaningful difference 

I would buy a smaller bottle of it, as you really don't need much, and that way you know it's not been sitting around for years on end.


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## Chanse27 (Aug 30, 2019)

I really appreciate the suggestions! I will post tanks when set up!


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Chanse27 said:


> What brought me here is what organic soil to choose. Because of my location, obtaining the recommended Miracle Gro Organic Choice Potting Mix is nearly impossible to find in stores. I'm eager to get a tank going so I purchased a couple different organic soils -
> 
> 1. Kellogg 3cu ft Organic Garden Soil from Lowe's. *Ingredients: "Aged recycled forest products, aged arbor fines, composted chicken manure, oyster shell & dolomite limes (as pH adjuster), bat guano, worm castings, and kelp meal."
> Now it being so rich, and what little I know about cycling tanks and the nitrogen system, I figured it wouldn't be a problem if I was just wanted to have plants, but I've got little Sharkbait needing something better than a pitcher and some pothos for cover. So the sooner I can ass livestock the better.
> ...


Sorry to weigh in late here. I started a new tank with potting soil, and found Aaron Talbot's remineralization protocol very useful: https://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/apc-library/52554-how-mineralized-soil-substrate-aaron-talbot.html

While doing this, I soaked it over night, and anything still floating the next morning (twigs, bark bits, perlite, etc) I discarded since I didn't want it floating around in my tank. Several rounds of soaking & drying the potting soil leached out much of the nutrients so I didn't get crazy ammonia spikes while cycling. It also reduced the amount of potting soil by more than half (LOTS of bark), so you'll wanna factor that in.

I'd definitely plant immediately--with a mix of fast growing stems/floaters and rooted plants like vals, crypts, swords, etc to keep algae from taking over. Your pothos can also help soak up excess ammonia/nitrates while cycling. And to start keep your light cycle short (4-5 hrs) to help prevent algae blooms.

Re when to add livestock: Safest course is to wait til it's fully cycled, but will defer to others with more experience about whether & how you can add fish while cycling. Guess it depends on how attached you are to that minnow....

Good luck!


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## ntdsc (Jul 24, 2019)

I think a lot of the problems with soil tanks is using tap water whether it's been filtered or not. I use rainwater, and the water doesn't sour, there's just this smell, that if you use all tap water, you could just add a few gallons of rainwater and I think it helps for some reason. The other problem is not capping the soil with a thin layer of regular sand (not pool filter sand). And from my recent experience, if you just add larger 1/2"-1" gravel, a lot, and mix it all up in the "soil" to make a bed, if the miracle grow is actually soil and not just compost, I would add clay from under the top layer, the gravel holds it together just as good as an egg crate, and you can make it deeper and plant things easier.

I think the real concern is that fish may not be able to survive in an a soil tank, because of the bacteria level, I know I don't have any fish in mine. I'm using mine for drinking water, and I dilute it with two cups of rainwater with one cup from the soil tank when I drink it, and I have a bubbler running in it most of the time.


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## Chanse27 (Aug 30, 2019)

@Desert Pupfish 

Thank you for the "late" input. I did read through the article you linked and it definitely was helpful! I think I will sift and soak the EcoScraps soil I have mentioned above since there isn't too much compost additive or manure compared to the other listed. Then dry it out tomorrow. I have been debating the aesthetics of the black diamond blasting sand 30/60 grit as a topper, or the functionality of Safe T oil absorbent mentioned above. If the Safe T oil absorbent was in the dark color I'd definitely be all for it. SO looks or functionality? Gah I wish we can have our cake and eat it too right? Most likely I'll be using the Safe T sorb because I'd really like this first time experience to be a success. 

Here's a random question... Has anyone experienced raising Daphnia? Is it possible to house/breed cherry shrimp and daphnia in the same tank? probably not a smart thing to do, considering I want to house this minnow with them as well. But I don't have a lot of tank space. If I used the 1.5 gal to house some daphnia and culled that so often it should be sustainable yes?


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

So are you looking at safetsorb’s color dry? Because it actually a medium brown once it get wet. 

Photo courtesy of @Seattle_Aquarist


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## Chanse27 (Aug 30, 2019)

@DaveKS im not sure which color it is. The only description I can get is online which says its tan/gray, but i imagine it will darken up when wet. 

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/ep-minerals-safety-absorbent


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Yes this is color dry, looks much different wet as shown in above pic.


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## ntdsc (Jul 24, 2019)

I was looking at the side of the tank, and with the larger 1/2"-1" gravel from Lowe's, brown gravel, looking almost like road gravel, all mixed in with the soil, the top 1/2" of soil (under a thin layer of regular sand) is dark, but the area below is more of a muddy brown. The dark area is new, I assume because the larger gravel supports itself and allows the soil to spread out and get oxygen, but only the top layer is best right now. I'm going to on the next water change to put smaller pea gravel in between the larger gravel, to hopefully have the rock support itself so the soil can all spread out.

It looks on the side like one 3 1/2" soil layer, but that's because those rocks are all -mixed- in with the soil, there's no distinct gravel layer. Also, I am using mostly clay that's underneath the soil, and am surprised it turned dark at the top layer.


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## Chanse27 (Aug 30, 2019)

@DaveKS 
I got the Safe T Sorb 7941. I feel like the functionality of it from the recommendation listed above might help the tank really thrive. Is this something I should also rinse prior to putting inside the tank? I'm going to cap it over some organic soil like I mentioned above. 

I also got the kit @minorhero mentioned., along with some Seachem Prime to dechlorinate the tap I will be using. Should I mix this in the water prior to filling tank or do I fill tank then add Prime? So many people do it differently it seems and I'm just a noob.


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## ursamajor (Oct 6, 2015)

I totally understand feeling overwhelmed by the amount of info available. It doesn't help that there's a lot of opinion thrown around as fact. Nobody tries to be misleading, but there's plenty hearsay and anecdotes swirling around and muddying the waters, so to speak. My advice is this... you will know them by their fruits. That is to say, I would trust people that have a strong record of producing aquariums you would want in your home. Sometimes one experienced, successful source of advice is better than sifting through everyone's opinions. I really highly recommend everything David Wong ever wrote on The 2Hr Aquarist. I also highly recommend the beginner's guides published on the Barr Report. These guys deliver quality advice and do an excellent job of dispelling common myths. They also have the aquariums to back up their words.


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## germanblueramlover (Jun 9, 2013)

You can either add the prime to the water before you add it to the tank, or once it's in the tank. For this first time fill-up with no fish it's no big deal either way. For future water changes you'd either add the dose for just the amount of new water you're adding, directly to the bucket before it goes into the tank, or else add it to the tank while the water is going in in which case you must do a dose for the whole tank volume (if I am remembering the back of the bottle correctly). 

People do it either way; I personally prefer to always add it to the new water before it goes into the tank, and make sure it's mixed thoroughly. Better safe than sorry with chlorine is my feeling!


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Chanse27 said:


> [MENTION=395703] I got the Safe T Sorb 7941. I feel like the functionality of it from the recommendation listed above might help the tank really thrive. Is this something I should also rinse prior to putting inside the tank? I'm going to cap it over some organic soil like I mentioned above.


I capped my potting soil with STS also, and though I washed it multiple times, it never rinsed clear. When I put it in, and now whenever I disturb it by moving or pulling plants, it creates a dense cloud of clay dust that hovers an inch or so above the substrate, and then settles down in 5-10 min & disappears. It doesn't cloud the entire tank. So while I'd be sure to wash anything I put in my tank, I wouldn't waste a lot of time or water trying to get it to run clear. Not sure if the clay dust is just part of it, or if it's slowly disintegrating--but from what I read on here it seems to last well for years without needing to be changed--a lot more than can be said for some of the aquasoils you read about. My heavy root feeders like jungle val, crypts & red lotus put out roots that extend a foot or more into the substrate. Plants seem to love it. And it has a dark, natural gravel look that hides poop well so you don't have to be obsessive about vacuuming it, etc.


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## ntdsc (Jul 24, 2019)

I don't have a picture of the soil, but will post one later. Adding larger 1/2"-1" gravel all mixed in, so it's literally a lot of gravel, it added oxygen somehow and made the top 1/2" of soil dark. That never happened before, it's all light tan clay, and the aeration made it darker.

I plan to add smaller gravel all between in the expectation that what's below will turn dark too, but it's doing a natural process to the soil within a week, and I expect when the new pea pebbles are added, fish will be able to survive in it (under a thin layer of regular sand).


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## Chanse27 (Aug 30, 2019)

Guys! My mystery minnow is a mama and im proud of her for some reason!

Went to go give her some mosquito larvae i harvested and saw 2 lil fry hanging out by the pothos. 

I only see one now after I fed her the larvae, but I hope there will be more! I dont know how long they hold sperm and reproduce like that... but thats cool man. Hopefully fry live!


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## germanblueramlover (Jun 9, 2013)

Guppies and mosquitofish can hold sperm for up to 6 months, I believe - that's partly why it's so hard to stop them from breeding! I thought she was looking pregnant in the pictures you posted - they develop a dark spot called the gravid spot as a result of the developing fry's eyes.

Congrats on the fry  If you can provide them with cover such as floating plants, that will improve their chances of survival, or separate them somehow if you are invested in raising them. Mum just might eat them!


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## Chanse27 (Aug 30, 2019)

Oh yea, the lil survivor is hanging out on top of one of the floating pothos leaves I have. What will the fry eat? Aside from the larvae ive been feeding every few days, ive been giving her betta food. It has tiny dried shrimp in it as well. But until i get this tank set up (in the proccess with prepping substrate and water), they'll have to be housed in that tub.

Proud to propogate this pothos as well. Roots are coming in strong.

Dang, I've always been around ponds my entire life since family always kept them, but to have my own little piece is pretty cool. Im excited to get this set up going already and really watch it thrive.


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## germanblueramlover (Jun 9, 2013)

Fry usually don't need to be fed much specifically; they are able to find enough microlife to eat coming in on plants. But you can try breaking up some flakes as small as you can, mine have always appreciated that.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

See if there is some dust in bottom of Betta pellets or just crush a couple to make mini food for fry. If you got a mesh fruit bag you can tie up big loose mesh ball to give fry some good cover to hide in. Be sure to rinse it good.


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## TMarquis (Mar 6, 2012)

I use a mixture of 75% rich topsoil (no compost, perlite, or other additives) and 25% dried pasteurized cow manure. Brand is Black Cow manure. I plant all my plants in pots with this mixture and the pots are then buried in the normal substrate. I then inject a liquid fertilizer into the root area of the plants about every 2 months. Cryptocorynes and Lace plants will never go dormant when growing in this mixture and regularly fertilized. Also, extra bright lighting is not needed when using this mixture. Change the soil when the plants growth slows. I use 100% RO water. Most plants will thrive in RO water.


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