# Questions in planning first planted tank



## iceburg (Jan 30, 2015)

Hello, 
I'm planning and preparing for my first planted (low-tech) tank. I have most of my equipment set up and I'm preparing my hardscape. I've been doing as much reading as I can here and elsewhere online and think I have a pretty good idea what I want to do but have a couple questions remaining.

*Here are my main questions:*

 Does the setup I describe below seem reasonable?

Biggest question: Given the tank/plants I listed below I need to pick some lighting. Currently I have this clamp-on LED setup that I don't think will be sufficient for much more than the anubius, java fern and moss. I've ordered 5 3 watt 6500k LED's (230 Lm each at 3.8v, 700mA) to build a light strip, but even though I'm comfortable with doing the electronics I'm not sure if the light output would be right. I'm hoping to be able to grow a couple medium light plants like Hygrophila compacta, Blyxa japonica, and/or S. repens along with my low-light plants. Conversely, I don't want it too bright for my betta to be comfortable or so much light that I need CO2. Would a 13 watt 6500k CFL be better than LED's? I'm already stretching my planned budget so cheaper solutions would be preferable.

I know most substrates need to be washed, but since the Eco-complete has various grain sizes and comes packed in water the package says contains some ferts for the plants should I just pour the bag straight into the empty tank?

I want a small cleanup crew to eat algae and dead plant bits, but getting along with the betta makes that tricky. Some bee shrimp would be my ideal pick, but I'm thinking nerite snails or a cory or two would probably be less likely to be killed. Would corys or nerites be good at eating dead plant bits? What would be a good hiding plant or decoration for shrimp?

I think I have a good selection of background to mid-ground plants. Any suggestions for easy foreground plants? I'd love some short, bushy plants for the betta to rest on as well as for hiding places.


*Here's what I have ready so far:*
Tank: 10g tank 20"L x 10"W x 12"H + 20" Glass Versa Hood
Filter: AquaClear 20
Heater: 50 watt ViaAqua
Lighting: Remaining issue (see question above)
CO2: None (will dose Flourish Excel as a carbon supplement)
Substrate: CaribSea Eco-Complete (20-Pounds)
Hardscape:

Gray granite rock (Not 100% sure on purity. Soaking to check for ph change)
Assorted small aquarium rocks from pet shop
Looking for a driftwood piece I like

Planned Plants (Depending on local stock & lighting choice)

Anubius barteri (var coffeefolia, nana, and/or other)
Java Fern
Java Moss tied to hardscape (maybe)
Amazon Sword
Blyxa japonica (if light permits)
Jungle Val
Hygrophila compacta (if light permits)
S. repens (if light permits. Carpeting would be ideal, but I'm not expecting it)

Definite Fish:
1x Male Betta splendens (currently in a 1 gallon and needs a new home)

Additional livestock Possibilities:

Bee shrimp
Nerite snail(s)
Small Cory catfish

Ferts and treatments (ready to go):

Seachem Prime water treatment
Seachem Flourish root tabs
Seachem Flourish Comprehensive
Seachem Flourish Excel

Expected Water Params:

Temp: 80 F
pH: 7.5 - 7.6 from tap
I will test gH and kH once my tests for those arive from amazon

Thanks for any help!


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

You should probable some sort of substrate that will provide nutrients for plants. Inert gravel isn't going to grow good plants. Think of a tomato plant growing on a rock versus in dirt. Same theory with a planted tank. Do some research on this forum about that subject. The rest looks pretty good with a quick read.


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## Bob Madoran (Dec 22, 2014)

Do not dump eco-complete straight into the tank. 

It is supposed to be clean right out of the bag, but I learned (as have some others) that is not always the case. You could end up with one of the rare bags that has some extra fine particulates in it that will cloud up the tank something fierce. Dump it into a bucket before putting it in the tank. If it is cloudy then you need to rinse it off first. If it isn't cloudy, then it can go right into the tank.


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## jrill (Nov 20, 2013)

I have used eco in several tanks without rinsing and never had a problem.


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

iceburg said:


> *Here are my main questions:*
> 
> Does the setup I describe below seem reasonable?
> Biggest question: Given the tank/plants I listed below I need to pick some lighting. Currently I have this clamp-on LED setup that I don't think will be sufficient for much more than the anubius, java fern and moss. I've ordered 5 3 watt 6500k LED's (230 Lm each at 3.8v, 700mA) to build a light strip, but even though I'm comfortable with doing the electronics I'm not sure if the light output would be right. I'm hoping to be able to grow a couple medium light plants like Hygrophila compacta, Blyxa japonica, and/or S. repens along with my low-light plants. Conversely, I don't want it too bright for my betta to be comfortable or so much light that I need CO2. Would a 13 watt 6500k CFL be better than LED's? I'm already stretching my planned budget so cheaper solutions would be preferable.
> ...


1) Mostly reasonable, pending some choices. I think your temp is a little high. I'd shoot for 76-78 instead of 80.

2) Medium light, Excel and liquid ferts is starting to get out of the realm of low-tech, just so you know. More like mid-tech.  Don't worry about your betta, he'll be fine with anything but the brightest lights. Especially because the tank will be well planted.

3) Since it's your first step, I'd just pour it directly into the tank. I've done it before with no problem. Let it settle for an hour, then do a water change. Within a day or two (and long before it's cycled to the point of adding fauna), you'll be good to go.

4) Nerites are great for algae cleanup, and _usually_ Betta-safe, but they don't really eat dead plant matter. Shrimp are sometimes ok with a betta, sometimes not. Really depends on the betta and the shrimp (bigger is better). But there are stories of bettas wiping out entire colonies of shrimp one day when they realize they're food, and of hyper-aggressive bettas tearing apart larger shrimp. So proceed with caution. Ditto any other fish, including corys: It really depends on the betta. Some tolerate other fish, some will fight them, some actually just don't get along and will be harrassed by the other fish. (those massive fins means they're actually not very agile in the water) If you add shrimp, be sure to give them hiding places. Wood hardscape or rocks with ledges to hide under, moss, etc. are all good.

5) Bettas love Anubias. The board leaves are like hammocks.  Otherwise, pretty much anything is fine.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Your plans are good, and you're most certainly on the right track.
So you needn't have too many concerns as it may be less complicated than you might think. 
Since it's just a 10 gal and will be low tech, and with the plants you've selected,you needn't overcomplicate things for yourself. Low to medium lighting will be good, so if you feel the equipment you now have will provide sufficient lighting to illuminate the tank well enough, it should be fine for the plants.

I have a similar 10 gal set-up to what you're planning, with the same filtration, but with the exception that I'm using pool filter sand as substrate, along with root tab ferts, and using similar liquid ferts to what you're intending for the water column.

My tank also has swords, anubias and blyxa japonica - how's that for commonality ?
So, here's what it looks like - these pics were taken many months after set-up, and to this day the tank is sparkling clear with good plant growth, and no problems:

http://s1105.photobucket.com/albums/h357/discuspaul/Anubias


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## iceburg (Jan 30, 2015)

Thanks for all the info everyone. I guess I'll give it a start with the lighting I have and upgrade if necessary. 

If I'm not able to find good tank mates that will eat dead plant bits should I just plan on clipping leaves that look like they are starting to die and siphon up any bits I find that fell off?

Discuspaul, that tank you linked looks great!


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## GadgetGirl (Oct 11, 2013)

kman said:


> 1) Mostly reasonable, pending some choices. I think your temp is a little high. I'd shoot for 76-78 instead of 80


Bettas prefer the higher temp. 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

I would not put jungle vals.

If you want some vals I would make sure they are nana, they are alot thinner and will suit the tank a bit better. but all vals minus spiralis all grow super long 4'.


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

GadgetGirl said:


> Bettas prefer the higher temp.


There is debate on that point. But 78 is widely considered the ideal medium, and 76 is well within the comfort range, and the slightly cooler temp brings other advantages.


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## iceburg (Jan 30, 2015)

kman said:


> There is debate on that point. But 78 is widely considered the ideal medium, and 76 is well within the comfort range, and the slightly cooler temp brings other advantages.


What benefits are there to lower temperatures? I know higher temps can help bettas resist bacterial and parasitic infections but I hadn't heard about benefits of lower temps.


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

More heat means more active bacteria. A warmer tank is actually harder to fight infection. The fish may enjoy it but it's not as good for everything else in your tank. Parasites, like Ich, need MUCH higher temps to treat... temps that are not good for your fish (or anything else), on an ongoing basis.

More heat is also harder on the plants, which usually prefer slightly cooler temps.

If you go TOO cold, then the fish can indeed have problems with their immune system... on the other hand, it's been shown that colder bettas live longer because their entire metabolism is slowed down. They live longer, but they're far from comfortable. 

But 78 is not "too cold", nor is 76. I wouldn't go below that, but 78 is a perfectly reasonable temp to keep a Betta. (and nearly everything else)


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## iceburg (Jan 30, 2015)

Thanks for the info.

Also, thanks for the warning about the size of vals philipraposo1982, I'll watch out for that.


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## iceburg (Jan 30, 2015)

I was getting everything assembled and placing my hardscape yesterday when I found that the cheapo LED clamp-on light I had didn't fit the rim on my tank (it had previously been on my old, rimless betta tank). I gave in and ordered a Marineland LED strip from Amazon (5/8 the price the LFS was asking for it). Based on the specs I found for this model, it will be outputting 450 lumens with 30 PAR at the substrate directly below it, about 25-26 PAR out at the far corners (not accounting for shadows of course).

From what I've read this is sort of borderline between low and mid level lighting, is that correct? 

With that level of lighting can I still get by without CO2 if I dose Flourish Excel? 

Would I be safe in trying a couple plants that require medium lighting?

Looks like I will be more in the mid-tech tank category now.


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

iceburg said:


> I was getting everything assembled and placing my hardscape yesterday when I found that the cheapo LED clamp-on light I had didn't fit the rim on my tank (it had previously been on my old, rimless betta tank). I gave in and ordered a Marineland LED strip from Amazon (5/8 the price the LFS was asking for it). Based on the specs I found for this model, it will be outputting 450 lumens with 30 PAR at the substrate directly below it, about 25-26 PAR out at the far corners (not accounting for shadows of course).
> 
> From what I've read this is sort of borderline between low and mid level lighting, is that correct?
> 
> ...


Yes, yes, and yes. 

From Hoppy's comprehensive PAR post:



Hoppy said:


> *LOW LIGHT, MEDIUM Light, HIGH LIGHT*
> 
> I don't believe there is any consensus about the definition of low, medium and high light. But, here is my definiition, subject to, and almost certain to change:
> Low light - 15-30 micromols of PAR - CO2 is not needed, but is helpful to the plants
> ...


Borderline situations like yours are tailor-made for Excel.


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## iceburg (Jan 30, 2015)

Thanks kman. Glad to hear that.

That comprehensive PAR post is really helpful.


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## iceburg (Jan 30, 2015)

Ok, so I got my light from Amazon and it looks like it will be pretty good.

I have my eco complete substrate and granite hardscape set up in my 10g tank and sitting in water with a running filter.










When I look at the rock in a photo it shows more discolorations and inclusions than are easily visible to the naked eye, but I think some of the reddish brown on the right side is light reflected of the furniture out of frame.

Tonight I tested the water parameters in the tank and my pH was higher than my tap water, but my KH and GH were high but slightly lower than the tap:

Tap:
pH = 7.5
KH = 11.5
GH = 16

Tank:
pH = 8.2
KH = 10.5
GH = 14.5

Is this likely due to the rock I have? I would have thought that leached minerals that raise the pH would have also raised KH and/or GH. 

Do these parameters look problematic for planting? I've heard it's best not to try to mess around with adjusting them unless it's necessary. Does it sound necessary or am I just worrying too much? 

Thanks for any help.


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

You're fine for planting. It's getting ready for fish that takes time, not plants.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

kman said:


> You're fine for planting. It's getting ready for fish that takes time, not plants.


This is absolutely true. You have chosen decent plants that will adapt well. I don't think you'll have an issue at all. I would start planting and worry about your PH later. You should do a fishless cycle and at the end, test your tank and see how your parameters look.


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## iceburg (Jan 30, 2015)

Ok, thanks. 

I guess overall I'm mainly concerned that the rock may be leaching something that would eventually harm the fish and if it is I'd like to find out and swap it out before planting so that I don't have to move plants later.

Is the pH likely to go down over the course of cycling? If so, what would cause that?


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

If it is leaching anything, I would think it would leech it all out by the time your tank is cycled and your final, big, water change would get rid of it all.

Just a quick question, which Eco-complete did you end up buying? I've read that certain kinds will raise the PH (cichlid formula?).


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## iceburg (Jan 30, 2015)

I have the standard, black Eco-complete. Here's the Amazon link to the one I got. There does seem to be a barely noticeable amount of cloudiness, maybe fine particulates from the substrate that could be causing the issue.

Probably the thing I was most confused by was the fact that my tank pH was higher than the tap water but the hardness was lower.

I'm going to get my plants after work, if the LFS still has the stock. I'll test the water again before planting to see if the the params have changed at all. The profiles on most of the plants listed max pH as 7.5 or 8. If I'm still at 8.2 will that be a problem?

I haven't done a fishless cycle before and I was hoping to do a fish-in cycle since I already have my betta in a small 1 gallon that requires frequent water changes and I'd rather just do water changes on one tank during the cycle. 

Are there any considerations I need to make for the plants if I do a fishless cycle? I understand Amonia and nitrite levels can spike higher during a fishless cycle than during a fish-in cycle, is that correct? Will adding root tabs and ferts for the plants affect the cycle at all?


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

Plants can tolerate ammonia better than fish can. Don't worry too much about the pH, for plants.

A betta is quite hardy, and should be fine. Just keep an eye on ammonia levels for the first month. Buy a bottle of Tetra SafeStart to get your cycle going. Buy a bottle of Prime for water conditioning and dechlorination. Two drops per gallon, every 2 days, for the first month, or longer if you still haven't cycled.


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## iceburg (Jan 30, 2015)

Thanks,

I've got a bottle of Seachem Prime that I've been using already in my betta's water. I also already have some Seachem Stability which should fill the same role as safe start. I think I'll get the tank planted tonight and then decide on fish-in vs fishless.

Thanks again!


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

iceburg said:


> Thanks,
> 
> I've got a bottle of Seachem Prime that I've been using already in my betta's water. I also already have some Seachem Stability which should fill the same role as safe start. I think I'll get the tank planted tonight and then decide on fish-in vs fishless.
> 
> Thanks again!


SeaChem Stability is not quite the same as SafeStart. The key in establishing a cycle is a product containing Nitrosospira and Nitrospira bacteria. There are many products that contain these, but it's not know if Stability is one of them, because SeaChem has repeatedly refused to confirm what strains they use, claiming it's proprietary information. People tend to recommend the Tetra product specifically mostly because it's so widely available, and the strains are well known and understood.

Stability might be just fine, I'm not saying it's crap, just that it's unknown compared to other products because SeaChem likes to be obtuse. (Prime is a killer product, though; I like their stuff overall.)


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## iceburg (Jan 30, 2015)

Ah, good to know. Thanks.


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## iceburg (Jan 30, 2015)

So, I finally got my plants a couple days ago and I'm not sure how well I've done. They didn't have exactly what I had planned on in stock, but they staff at this place were really helpful and they have their plant tanks labeled with the PAR levels which helped in knowing what the plants were already living with and they told me they are running off the same city water supply I am so they have similar pH and hardness. 

I got some Hygro Angustifolia which seems to be doing very well so far. 

I got a rather large and very nice looking Anubius coffeefolia. I tried planting it in the substrate, but I may need to tie it to a rock since it won't really root while keeping the rhizome exposed. It also started growing a bit of brown algae already. I've heard brown algae is common in new tanks.

They didn't have any java fern and I got some really nice looking star grass (zosterifolia) but it's been really fragile and I don't think I handled it well in planting since a number of leaves broke off and some bits got lost in the substrate. I think I probably need to move it farther from the filter as well.

I did a test last night and found that I actually have between 0 and 0.25ppm ammonia without any livestock. My Tap water doesn't have those levels. Could the test be affected by the Flourish comprehensive or root tabs?

I'll post a pic when I get home. It looks pretty good, but I'm feeling really nervous too.


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