# Plant Fertilizer and Cherry Shrimp



## Burks (May 21, 2006)

I quit using CSM+B and within a week my RCS had eggs.

Whether it was by a stroke of luck or the CSM+B was causing them not to carry eggs I cannot say. 

Just relating my personal experience. Take it for what it's worth (less than 2 cents).


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## indyglyder (Jul 14, 2006)

I was going to bring up a similar topic I just bought csm+b from greg watson.com and noticed it had .10 % copper. I'm guessing I just wasted my money. Why would they ever put that in there its not good for a lot of marine life. I still plan on dosing my 90 gallon tank with the other ferts, just not the csm+b. I have a breeder tank for the shrimp and I don't put any ferts in that tank. just a few simple plants.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

wood said:


> Please let me know of any problems or experiences anyone has had using the same method fertilizing with Cherry Shrimp. I have heard that using the EI method could be harmful.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ryan


Who said EI was harmful?
Do tell.

I've got more cherry shrimp, rare fish than they do, that much is true.
I've gone to 160ppm NO3 and finally got some Amano shrimps to die(LD 50 at 3 day exposure at 160ppm), no fish had any issues(rare SA wild caught etc). I've not found any upper limits for any of the other nutrients and they are comparably insanely high, so the low levels from eI are not going to come even remotely close unless you OD nearly 5-120X the EI concentrations.

So whoever is saying such Bull and fear mongering ought to be slapped across their face with a mullet.

These clowns and bozos whine and then offer no hard data that suggest a certain level of a nutrient is harmful (why is that?), they offer no studies to support their contentions, they do no such controls nor research themselves, but they want to poo poo EI?

People kill shrimp, fish for much less complicated reasons than anything to do with planted tanks and ferts.:icon_idea 

I suggest TMG or Flourish, I've never liked CMS personally but plenty of folks do.

Copper, plants NEED copper, the issue is based on dose, caffine is also deadly, but many folks drink small amounts, same with copper, we need copper as well, just not a ton of it.
A little will not have any effect, too much will kill the patient.
Same deal here.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## ianiwane (Sep 7, 2004)

I use CSM+B with no problems.


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## New 2 fish (Dec 26, 2004)

I've been very lax about my fertilizing over the summer. However, I am still dosing, just not as frequently as I should. The only problem I had was in a 10g when I accidentally put 3x the amount of phosphate in. :icon_frow 
Otherwise, Cherries are very happy!


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## Solstice (Jan 9, 2006)

Tom, ianiwane, and New 2 fish, I dose EI with my Cherries and have no problems so far (only a week in with the shrimp). Do any of you dose iron? I wouldn't want to dose in high quantities, but was thinking a little iron would be ok. Your thoughts?


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## Lycosa (Oct 16, 2006)

I've been dosing EI with RCS for a while now and there are absolutely no negative effects to the health of the fish or the inverts. As PlantBrain said, it is the dose of these ferts that can become an issue. Even then, I've read other's studies where many researchers have pushed nutrients into 1000's ppm and nothing died (they were conditioned slowly however). Even more convincing is the fact that much of the research has been done in saltwater where fish/inverts are much more prone to health problems when exposed to excessive levels of nutrients.

I'm pretty sure that this is another one of those early rumors which became 'aquarium law'. There have been points in my early saltwater experience where my nitrates reached over 100ppm and I freaked. I was frantically trying to bring the nitrates down. Looking back, no ill effects were observed from such 'nitrate poisoning'. But....everyone said it shouldn't be so, and so I took it as gospel. I think that some of these myths should be re-evaluated!

Dose ferts...you'll have happy plants, and happy shrimp.:icon_smil


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## B2k2 (Oct 13, 2005)

I have always used Flourish with no problems. My 100ml bottle contains 0.0001% Copper, is this less than CSM+B?

Tom is absolutely right Copper is essential for life. Think of your nervous system as being like the electrics in your house, without copper in the wires the current would not be able to power things. Too much copper and you start getting short circuits...

Alan


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## New 2 fish (Dec 26, 2004)

I do dose iron, but like I said, I haven't been dosing as _often_ as I should, but I've been using a pretty high dose of iron when I do...


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## indyglyder (Jul 14, 2006)

I don't think EI is bad I am using it in combination with testing since I am new to plants. but since this is the shrimp forum I'll stick to the shrimp issue. when doing a search for copper in this forum there are numerous people that claim copper is not good for invertabrates. If your not testing your tap water and your dosing csm you never really know were your levels are going to end up. Your shrimp may or may not die but are they as healthy. someone doing crack may or may not die but it doesn't make it healthy either. I'm going to simply keep it out of my shrimp only tank and limit it in others.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Karen Randall had 2ppm of copper in her tap due to pipe changes.
So that has nothing to do with trace dosing, but you could very well believe it to be the Trace dosing.

As you can see, there are many other potential reasons for death of a critter.
It might even be copper, but you still have not really found your source.
Perhaps you uprooted plants, did not do a water changes, poor plant growth etc for a week or two.....

A simple way around such baloney and myths..........add the suspected compound on purpose with the specific intent that you are going to maintain things correct and vary the suspected compound over a wide reasonsable range that you believe may cause harm.

Now for something to have causation, eg, if you accept the hypothesis that CMS at 5mls per 80 liters 3x a week with 50% weekly water changes will kill any shrimp, then everyone repeating this test should also be able to kill their shimp, even more so with softer waters than hard(Copper is more toxic in softer water, lower KH, not GH).

But clearly folks do not see this over a wide range of tank parameters and conditions when they add this much CMS or TMG or Flourish.
This shows the observations do not match the hypothesis very well, do you agree?

Folks need to re evaluate such hypothesis and really try hard to stop and quench such myths in the hobby.

Folks siad similar things about high PO4 = algae, but clearly when we added PO4, this was not the case. Same for high Fe, high NO3, high K+, SO4.
But it was the case for NH4 and adding too many fish/shrimps etc.
So that shows some potential cause, as does varying the CO2 too much.

If you already have issues and do not otherwise have a stable system, then there are many other confounding factors that will cause you issues and have much less confidence and targeting of the real causative agent.

If you take an otherwise stable system and add PO4, CMS etc and note the effects and you see none, then this is much more telling.

Problem is, folks with issues don't have a stable system but like to speculate and argue with folks that have nice stable systems. 

Observation alone does not tell you that much, you need to test against a standard, when you have a loused up system to begin with, that is not a control:icon_idea 

You are much more able to isolate the causes of the issues and rule particular issues out like the Cu content in trace mixes and their effects on shrimp in this manner.

If EI had issues, "guessing" which one would be tough.
But if you go down, one by one at time, varying them ppms over a wide range while maintaining good ppms for the others, good routines etc, then you know the effects of each that you tested.I do not expect folks to do all the test I've done, they may if they chose, they are not hard test for a hobbyists to do.

Most folks are too darn lazy to do that type of test or simply don't have the time or desire. Too much work But then these same folks wanna tell me that their guessing trumps my test and work:icon_excl 

Note: I'm not saying what killed the shrimp, I am saying what did not kill them.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## TRDMCV20L (Jan 22, 2006)

What about excel?


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## jake (Feb 20, 2004)

I've never found any fertilizer able to kill shrimp when used within reason. The same goes for CO2 and flourish excel. 

Ammonia, nitrites, and people messing around with chemicals too much like pH UP and pH down, medications, etc. = what kills shrimp, IMO.


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## actioncia (Jun 9, 2005)

I do not dose any ferts on my shrimp tank. Regards, jC.


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## NeonShrimp (Mar 9, 2006)

actioncia said:


> I do not dose any ferts on my shrimp tank. Regards, jC.


I also don't and won't :icon_excl


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

You may not need to add ferts for various reasons, that's not debated here, but.......better plant health = better critter health. Lots of research evidence shows this to be the case.

Many other folks are adding it, so for these hokey myth based theories to be accepted as real rather than imagined.............we all need to see the casuation, but this *clearly is not the case *for EI, Fe, Excel, traces etc.
We add these and have no fish/shrimp issues at all. It's not just one or two folks either for a few weeks, this has been occuring for over a decade with thousands of aquarist. 

I'm not saying what killed your shimps, I am saying what *did not kill them*.

There is a great deal of knowledge of knowing that something is not causing an issue.

Back up the statements.
Use logic, use test, do your own test, try it and see, use science, research citations etc, anything for good support.

We all have room for improvements with shrimp, with plants etc. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

Thanks a lot everyone for great responses, especially Tom! A lot of my questions/concerns were answered!

I just ordered some cherry shrimp and was terrified using KNO3 KH2PO4 and CSM+B. I was even more terrified using Excel and wasn't even going to use it anymore because I read a whole lot about it killing shrimp: Petshrimp.com Discussion Forum :: View topic - This morning I found my Asian Filter Shrimp dead 

Thanks a lot Tom and everyone else for easing my concerns. I feel very confident now continuing dosing both of my tanks when I add the cherries.

Thanks,

Ryan


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Nothing wrong with asking and seeing.
But just make sure it makes sense also, rather than purely advice based.

If many say nay, few suggest otherwise, often it tends to be on the mark, but if folks have done test, have used it, and not had any issues.......then you know something's up.

You really have to test specifically with toxicity, but the shrimp are easy test models, grow like mad, breed like crazy, very sensitive to environmental changes.

So they make ideal candidates for such test and such test are also very easy to do. All you do is add the suspected nutrient in the tank and wait and see.

If you are already losing shrimp to begin with, you are a poor cadidate to test anything

You do not have a control to compare to if you cannot keep them or a fish etc, thus you *cannot say what is killing your shrimp conclusively*, but many still like to try.:tongue: 

Let me ask you this: would you take advice from someone that is growing plants very well and without algae or some one who has poor growth and BBA all over? Someone who has breed the cherries like flies for several years in conjuction with awesome plant growth, high ferts, nutrients etc?

Need I say more?

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

I decided to ask on this forum before implementing that advice. 

I do realize that there are a lot of people that think they know what they are talking about, when in actuality they know that they don't know what they are talking, and still offer bad advice knowing nothing. Maybe it is online ego? Denial? Who knows, I'm not a psychiatrist.

I am very happy that I posted this thread in order for not only me, but for others to get the straight facts. 

Thanks a lot everyone I really appreciate it. I will definitely post updates as to the status of my cherries when they are in my tanks.

-Ryan


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## NeonShrimp (Mar 9, 2006)

Hi Ryan,

There is nothing like first hand experience. Best wishes on your new shrimp and please do keep us updated


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## dhavoc (May 4, 2006)

got both ends of the spectrum, my rcs wild form and reds could care less about ferts (EI GW stuff, with regular water changes) and breed like rabbits or roaches. but my CRS (i know different species) cant even take 1/4 reccomended dosage of flourish with out going nuts and trying to climb out of the tank. personally with rcs i wouldnt worry about ferts as long as you dont overdose, and do regular water changes to remove unused ferts. if you are unsure, test first with only a couple of shrimp in the tank and see how they react.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I have CRS also. But this thread is about cherries.

Many of the membership in SFBAAS keep both them as well and does EI. I Also keep bee shrimps. Eric gave a shrimp talk and went into CRS in detail at the AGA event.Focus on good food, softer water, good plant growth.

I was long a fish breeder and highly successful critter keeper before I got caught up in planted tanks FYI.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## AlGee (Sep 7, 2006)

i overdosed CSM+B and iron chelate for a couple of weeks and it may have killed my shrimp. i have a 15 gallon, so i cut the recommended dosage of 5ml CSM+B and 1-2ml of iron in half. but i overlooked the part where the dosage was supposed to be diluted into 250ml of water and then parted out from that. so i put in about 2.5ml CSM+B and 1ml iron chelate DRY (1/2 teaspoon and 1/4 teaspoon, respectively). it tinted my water pretty badly and i wondered what the heck was wrong, as my tank looked yellowed. i thought my lighting was going bad (i had some 2700k bulbs before and just recently replaced them with some 5000k bulbs, and the yellowishness looked much like the color that the previous bulbs gave my tank). i only did this twice in 2 weeks. the first week i don't remember if i noticed my tank looking weird. the second time i immediately noticed the tint and realized that my dosing may have something to do with it. instead of doing an immediate water change, i opted to just leave it be and do a water change according to weekly schedule.

after the second week and the routine 33% water change, my shrimp seemed very lethargic, not bustling about as they usually do. pretty much staying still in place for a long period, not even moving much when an oto bumped into them. i noticed the females even stopped fanning their eggs. a few died in a day and a few more died the next day. 

it could have been anything, so i can't say for sure if overdosing is the culprit. but since i overdosed by so much, i am highly suspect


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

That is understandable, few argue this, correleation might be strong, but it does mean the assumption that X causes Y is correct.

If others have high dosing rates for CMS, you might ask yourself how strong is the evidence for this if they add the same volume to their tanks without issues.

One thing that influences metal toxicity is low KH, the lower, the more toxic the metals are. Why not switch to TMG anyway?

That's a better product for plants and I've added a *huge* amount of TMG and Flourish with no ill impacts even on shrimps of any species.

It's fairly obvious you do not want to risk more shrimp death on testing to find the cause. So try a different brand of trace.
See if the KH is low.
See if there's something else wrong etc. See if there might not be alternative reasons killing shrimp.

See if you can disprove each of those alternatives or not.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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