# Can Ferts Cause Crypt Melt?!?



## TankEnvy (Dec 26, 2009)

Just started EI method with dry ferts. 1/4 teaspoon of KNO3 three times a week, 1/8 teaspoon KH2PO4 three times a week, and what was supposed to be a "dash" of Plantex CSM+B twice a week. I left for a week-long biz trip, asked my daughter to do the ferts for me, and when I got back all of my crypts were melting. VERY healthy plants now look like nubs.

I'm guessing she got the measurements wrong, but she's not sure which ones she might have overdosed. (No, I did not give her a hard time--I've done much worse things unwittingly to my tanks over the years!)

My question is, of the three dry ferts, which is most likely to cause Crypt melt if overdosed?

55 g tank, no CO2, 128-watt coralife unit on for 8 hours per day, Excel daily. I don't test water parameters, sorry, so no idea what nutrient levels are—that's why I decided to try EI method.

The Crypt melt is just killing me--with my setup, growth is so slow that it will really take a long time, if ever, for these plants to recover, I would think...

BTW, I did a massive water change, so hopefully that stops the process. 

A second question: what is the optimal dosing strategy for this tank? Its setup doesn't exactly match anything I've read in Mr. Barr's postings or reports, so any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

How long as the tank been set up? Crypts usually melt when transplanted from the pots you buy them in, so if the tank is only a few weeks old, the melt is normal, and they will grow back. Excess fertilizing isn't going to cause melting, unless it was massively overdosed, giving you brackish water.

I'm guessing that light is a two bulb PC light, 65 watt bulbs. If so, you have low light, barely enough to grow plants. Coralife PC lights have very poor reflectors.


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## TankEnvy (Dec 26, 2009)

It's an established tank. Crypts have been in there for well over two years, so they've already gone through typical partial melt and then slowly grew back nicely.

Water is not brackish, so I don't think it was a massive overdose, if that's the sign of such an occurrence.

Just seems like too much of a coincidence that the one new thing I introduced to the tank--the dry ferts--didn't somehow have something to do with the crypt melt.

As for the lights, yes, you are right--two 65-watt bulbs. Which I haven't changed in about two years, so that might be exacerbating my low light condition. But crypts have grown nicely, albeit slowly, for years for me in low light tanks.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Established Crypts can melt from dramatic changes in water chemistry.

A few of us feel that Excell is harmful to some crypts. In my case only the rare ones :angryfire


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## chiefroastbeef (Feb 14, 2011)

Some times my crypts melt for no reason... including my Crypt. Nurii... 

One of my crypt wendtii is slowly melting as well, and I don't know why because nothing has changed as far as I know.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

its possible. but they are much more likely to melt from a rapid decrease in nutrient concentration then an increase (NOTE, this is what i READ, not saw. i only have had crypts melt after being transplanted).

the crypts grow back from a melt much faster then to grow to that size initially though.


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## TankEnvy (Dec 26, 2009)

I forgot--one other new variable is that I started dosing excel every day instead of every other day. So if crypts are sensitive to excel, maybe that's the culprit...and I thought Val is the only plant that hates excel....

The other piece of evidence pointing to dry ferts or excel is that i am using the same new fert regimen in my 38 g and got the same crypt melt. So methinks my new fert regimen is the culprit.


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

It is usually drastic changes in water chemistry or temperature, or transplant shock. For years there has been speculation from some botanists that there may be a plant disease involved, but nobody has ever come up with anything to substantiate that. There is nothing in trace minerals that could cause it, and theoretically sharp increases in nitrate or ammonium could trigger it, but that has never been conclusive either. I have kept Cryps in tanks that are still cycling with large ammonia spikes and no melt, and I have also had cryps melt for no apparent reason. I have used Excel with Cryps quite often and never had melt.


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## TankEnvy (Dec 26, 2009)

Ok, based on above, it is just a weird coincidence that my crypts in two separate tanks decided to melt at same time. I guess it's possible.

Thanks to all for your input! As always, this site is very helpful with insight and advice.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

TankEnvy said:


> I forgot--one other new variable is that I started dosing excel every day instead of every other day. So if crypts are sensitive to excel, maybe that's the culprit...and I thought Val is the only plant that hates excel....


If you go to the Plant Sub-Forum and look at the Crypt Club thread there are a few comment there. Also at least two of us feel Excell has damaged Java fern.
I had mine lose healthily adult leaves, the new leaves were mutated. Same Java in a tank never treaded, looks completely different. 

Just another reason I prefer a natural approach.


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## Aquaticfan (Oct 30, 2011)

TankEnvy said:


> I forgot--one other new variable is that I started dosing excel every day instead of every other day. So if crypts are sensitive to excel, maybe that's the culprit...and I thought Val is the only plant that hates excel....
> 
> The other piece of evidence pointing to dry ferts or excel is that i am using the same new fert regimen in my 38 g and got the same crypt melt. So methinks my new fert regimen is the culprit.


Bingo right there with the Excel..... My crypts melt asap if I get to crazy or to fast of dose increase with the stuff. It took time of getting them used to it and gently increasing. Switching from every other day to every day with the same dose is enough. 

I really doubt dosing dry ferts in an abundance did it.. If this was the case EI dose would kill plants not help them..


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

I had posted third on another Crypt thread:

If there is a causal effect involving the untimely death of my Rare crypts due to Excell I'd guess this is the reason:

"Glutaraldehyde is an antimicrobial, bactericide, fungicide, and virucide, commonly used to sterilize medical instruments. It is also used as an embalming fluid, as an ingredient in Anti-Freeze, an antibacterial agent in cooling towers, a leather tanning agent, a biocide in water treatment, a sanitary solution for portable toilets, and is used to sterilize ballast tanks in ships moving from one water source to another (to kill off pathogens and critters that may be transferred in the tanks from one water way to another).

Glutaraldehyde is also an algaecide."

- http://www.oscarfish.com/article-hom...hem-excel.html


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## wetworks (Jul 22, 2011)

DogFish said:


> Established Crypts can melt from dramatic changes in water chemistry.
> 
> A few of us feel that Excell is harmful to some crypts. In my case only the rare ones :angryfire


This has happened to me. No more Excel in any tank that has crypts. When the leaves do grow back they are small and stunted.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

With low light you don't need much fertilizing. If you want to use the EI method, just dose once a week instead of 3 times a week, and use less than the table dosage amounts, maybe half as much. Slow growth means little usage of nutrients. I don't think Excel bothers Crypts. The really nice thing about them is that they always grow back as long as the roots are still there.


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

Everyone draws conclusions from their own experiences when it comes to pin pointing causes and effect, thats how some rumors get spread: in the broader picture there are usually many factors and unknowns to consider. (I am not trying to imply anything about what anyone has said, only that there is more to consider when drawing a conclusion) One thing everyone usually agrees on is that it is very common for Cryps to melt at one time or another, and also quite often Cryps will hold up just fine in all the suspect conditions that may trigger melt.

One thing I can relate from my experience is the following:

During the ten years I was selling and importing plants I noticed the following:

Cryps that were collected from the wild and exported were always highly susceptible to melt within the first 30 days, while Cryps of the exact same specie that were cultivated from farms or nurseries for several generations would rarely melt on me. Most of these more exotic species are wild collected, or were propagated in peoples tanks from wild collected plants.



> When the leaves do grow back they are small and stunted.


That seems like a whole different issue to me, and there could be many reasons for that, but again I do not mean to argue the point. It is something I will look out for if I have a melt while using Excel, (it hasn't happened to me yet)



> I really doubt dosing dry ferts in an abundance did it.. If this was the case EI dose would kill plants not help them..


I agree 100%. And using the same logic, I would say the same thing about Excel, or using bulk glut. Excel has been around since 1999 or 2000.... and used by thousands and thousands of people, and if it caused Cryps and Java fern to melt, (the most common plants used in low tech tanks with Excel) I think there would be a huge outcry during all these years and they would have stopped selling it years ago. Not only that but people have been making their own Excel buying the raw chemical themselves and using it with wendtii and other common cryps, and I would guess that 99 percent of all the thousands of people who have used it, have had Java fern in their tank.

A good friend of mine here in Salem has kept over 12 tanks, all low tech, soil based, with Excel and full of Cryps and Java fern. Over ten varieties of cryps and three or four species of Java fern. She started making her own Excel to save money. She has never had a Cryp or Java fern melt. Ever.


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

I agree that any change in water chemistry and Excel may cause crypt melt, they are definitely plants that like a constant on water parameters.


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