# DLP's 29g low-tech journal. Plants dying, algae thriving. Need HELP!!!



## DataLifePlus (Nov 4, 2008)

Hello all,

Just recently set up this tank. It's a 29-gallon with an Eclipse 3 hood light and filtration system. It's got two 18-watt 24-inch bulbs.










*The hardscape:* Manzanita branches in a pile of slate and lava rock on the left and a few nice pieces of petrified wood on the other side. Substrate is a black moon sand.

*The flora:* Java moss tied to the manzanita with thread and some anubias nana and java fern around the base. Chain swords, C. wendtii and C. walkeri. Marsilea minuta in the foreground.

*The fauna:* 5 rummynose tetra, 8 pristella tetra, 4 otocinclus, 5 corydoras paleatus, 5 German blue rams*, one bushynose pleco and some MTS (they come with the anubias).

*Newely added.

Currently no dosing with anything, but will probably start soon with API Leaf Zone (0-0-3).

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Any suggestions would be great. Specifically looking for feedback on the following:

- This is my first time using the moss on the manzanita. When and how should I start to trim it?

- Any changes to the hardscape? Any additions?

- What other fish should I add? 

Thanks and aloha,
James.


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## brion0 (Sep 28, 2008)

Oto cats are cool fish, you might add a few. Maby add a Java fern on the rocks, to the left.


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## fishbguy1 (Feb 29, 2008)

Tank is looking good sor far, and I think it has potential...

The only thing I would add is some type of foreground plant, and possibly something taller behind the rocks.

DHG would be a cool plant to cover the foreground, and maybe blyxa or something behind that.


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## DataLifePlus (Nov 4, 2008)

Thanks for the comments and suggestions so far.

I'm definitely looking to get some oto's, but having some trouble tracking some down at the moment. Was also thinking about some small corys. Maybe pandas?

I like the DHG idea, but how do you thin k it would work with the current setup? I want to keep this tank as low-tech as possible... low light, no CO2, sand substrate, and light on the fertz. I know that really narrows down my options, but what do you think would work in this environment?


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## brohawk (May 19, 2008)

I'm not sure how the dhg will fare--might do ok towards the front of the tank where the light's at, but not in the rear. You could try a moss carpet in the foreground as most traditional foreground plants will need more light + CO2, but I think you'll have trouble growing anything taller in the back. What does grow will droop fwd towards the light and drive you crazy anyway. I'd stick w/ the slow growers you've got, add more of them to the other side of the tank, and generally keep things close to the substrate. Great start so far.


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## DataLifePlus (Nov 4, 2008)

Small update.... added a few fish. 5 otocinclus, 5 corydoras paleatus, and a bushynose pleco. All the fish are doing great. I think I have a good mix, everyone is getting along and the tank is very active.

Also added three small plantlets of java fern tied to a rock and placed around behind the anubias.

And the obligatory tank shot, taken today:










The moss seems to be doing okay. It seems to be getting fuller, but I'm not sure how much it's spreading. Haven't done any trimming yet. Should I?


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## cintamas (Feb 17, 2009)

Looking really nice. I like the black moon sand a lot! Where did you get it from? I wouldn't start trimming just yet. As the moss thickens, it'll begin to attach itself to the wood. Too much tampering early on with prevent that from taking place.


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## DataLifePlus (Nov 4, 2008)

cintamas said:


> Looking really nice. I like the black moon sand a lot! Where did you get it from? I wouldn't start trimming just yet. As the moss thickens, it'll begin to attach itself to the wood. Too much tampering early on with prevent that from taking place.


Thanks for the compliments and advice.

I got the black sand from Aquascapes in Aiea. It's a bit pricey, but looks nice.


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## legomaniac89 (Mar 16, 2008)

I see a lot of potential with your tank DLP. Get a few nice stem plants to go behind your rocks and it'll look great.

The only suggestion I have is about the ferts. API's leaf zone contains only Potassium and Iron. Since you have lower light, fertilization won't be too critical, but I'd try Seachem's Flourish line. They work well for lightly planted tanks, but they are kind of $$$. Using root tabs would also be a good option.

If you want an easy low light foreground plant, you could try Marsilea quadrifolia.


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## DataLifePlus (Nov 4, 2008)

legomaniac89 said:


> I see a lot of potential with your tank DLP. Get a few nice stem plants to go behind your rocks and it'll look great.
> 
> The only suggestion I have is about the ferts. API's leaf zone contains only Potassium and Iron. Since you have lower light, fertilization won't be too critical, but I'd try Seachem's Flourish line. They work well for lightly planted tanks, but they are kind of $$$. Using root tabs would also be a good option.
> 
> If you want an easy low light foreground plant, you could try Marsilea quadrifolia.


Thanks for the response. How deep would I need the substrate to be in the back for the stem plants? Right now it's pretty shallow, mainly due to the cost of the sand. But I do have a few more bags I could use. Any suggestions for stems that would do well in this low-tech setup?


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## legomaniac89 (Mar 16, 2008)

1.5" would be more than plenty for most plants.

As for good stem plants: most Hygrophila sp., Rotala rotundifolia, R. indica, Ludwigia repens, L. repens x arcuata. There a good plant database here on TPT that you can surf through, and other good one on APC (Aquatic Plant Central) for some ideas.

Some good sized Crypts might look nice behind the rocks too


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## Honorable24 (Nov 16, 2008)

what type of driftwood?


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## DataLifePlus (Nov 4, 2008)

legomaniac89 said:


> 1.5" would be more than plenty for most plants.
> 
> As for good stem plants: most Hygrophila sp., Rotala rotundifolia, R. indica, Ludwigia repens, L. repens x arcuata. There a good plant database here on TPT that you can surf through, and other good one on APC (Aquatic Plant Central) for some ideas.
> 
> Some good sized Crypts might look nice behind the rocks too


Sounds good. How do you think most of those would do with the lower amount of light (just over 1 wpg)?


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## DataLifePlus (Nov 4, 2008)

Honorable24 said:


> what type of driftwood?


On the left are two manzanita branches and the right side is all petrified wood.


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## legomaniac89 (Mar 16, 2008)

DataLifePlus said:


> Sounds good. How do you think most of those would do with the lower amount of light (just over 1 wpg)?


The rotalas should do fine, but the nodes between leaves will be fairly large, and they may not have much pink color, but I've found that they'll grow in most anything. The ludwigias may not fare quite as well, but, experiment...that's the best part of keeping aquariums.

And most any cryptocoryne will grow under that light. I have to say I am somewhat biased towards them, I am hopelessly addicted to crypts lol.


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## DataLifePlus (Nov 4, 2008)

legomaniac89 said:


> The rotalas should do fine, but the nodes between leaves will be fairly large, and they may not have much pink color, but I've found that they'll grow in most anything. The ludwigias may not fare quite as well, but, experiment...that's the best part of keeping aquariums.
> 
> And most any cryptocoryne will grow under that light. I have to say I am somewhat biased towards them, I am hopelessly addicted to crypts lol.


I have some C. wendtii in another tank that is not doing so well at the moment (could it be getting too much light?). I think I'm going to move it to this tank. I think I'm going to plant it on either side of the largest petrified wood piece.


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## trigun808 (May 18, 2008)

mmmmm i think u should put like crypts or anubias on the right side
maybe some plants in the back
like teh other person said, rotalas are easy


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## DataLifePlus (Nov 4, 2008)

So I pulled the C. wendtii out of my other tank. When I put it in there, it was one nice big plant. It died back and was barely showing any green above the substrate, but when I dug it up it had spread to about 8 small plantlets.

I cleaned it all up and planted it around the large stone in the center.


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## DataLifePlus (Nov 4, 2008)

As can be expected with a low-tech tank such as this, not much new here. But I'm still trying to take a picture once a week to see the progress. 
I know, literally watching grass grow. :icon_roll

So here's the latest full tank shot, taken today:










As you can see, java moss is growing quite well. The C. wendtii seems to be doing fine with the transplant, although it hasn't grown much at all.

Still looking for feedback, especially on when to start trimming the java moss on the driftwood.

Thanks for looking!

- James.


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## trigun808 (May 18, 2008)

looking good man!
maybe u should invest in some anubias petite to put by the wood?


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## hilikus16 (Nov 6, 2008)

Looks like your off to a good start. If your still looking for plants I should have some R. Rotundifolia and dwarf sag ready for trimming next week (both are very easy plants to grow). If your interested let me know.


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## DataLifePlus (Nov 4, 2008)

hilikus16 said:


> Looks like your off to a good start. If your still looking for plants I should have some R. Rotundifolia and dwarf sag ready for trimming next week (both are very easy plants to grow). If your interested let me know.


Yeah, I'd definitely be interested. How do you think they would do in this tank with only the sand substrate and 1wpg?


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## trigun808 (May 18, 2008)

sags should do fine


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## DataLifePlus (Nov 4, 2008)

Pretty decent update. Did quite a bit of planting over the last few days. 

First, I added three small java ferns tied to a small piece of driftwood to the left hand side of the tank. I wedged the driftwood in between some of the rocks behind the large branch.

Next, I added some chain swords. Don't know which type they are, I bought them from a member here. I planted them in the middle background.

I then added 5 small crypt luteas. I moved all the C. wendtii to the right of the rocks, and planted the lutea on the opposite side. Also on the right side near those rocks I planted some corkscrew vals. Don't know if I'll keep them there, I just didn't really have anywhere else to plant them.

And last put not least is the marsilea minuta spread over the mid- and fore-ground. I bought 40+ nodes and cut them into small groups of 2-4 nodes. I know this is a slow growing plant, but hopefully it will fill in nicely.

And of course, the full tank shot (taken today):










I've been fertilizing sparingly (with weekly water changes) with API Leaf Zone. Need to get some better fertz and root tabs next time I'm at my LFS. I will be adding a DIY CO2 system tomorrow. Pictures of that to come.


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## DataLifePlus (Nov 4, 2008)

Added a DIY CO2 system. Used a 1-gallon water jug... I drilled a hole in the lid, fed the silicone tubing through it, and then sealed both sides with aquarium silicone. Used a mixture of 1.5 cups sugar, .5 tsp bakers yeast, and filled the bottle about halfway with warm water. I then cut about an inch off the larger end of a wooden chopstick and stuck it in the other end of the silicone tubing for a diffuser. I had the shave the end of the chopstick to get it in the tubing, but I ended up with a pretty decent fit. Used a suction cup airline holder to keep it in the tank. 



















As you can see, getting some pretty fine bubbles. I also removed the bio-wheel on the filter. Hopefully I'll be able to get good diffusion of the CO2. 

Should I have any worries with the DIY CO2 running at night without the bio-wheel?


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## trigun808 (May 18, 2008)

wow man! i reallly never knew a chopstick would be a good diffuser! lol nice!
learn something new everyday!
btw i might have some dry fertz from GLA i could give u such as CSM-B, KN03, KH2pO4, GH booster, maybe even flourish root tabs lol i gotta go look
i dont think u will have a problem with the co2 at night
loooking nice man!


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## DataLifePlus (Nov 4, 2008)

trigun808 said:


> wow man! i reallly never knew a chopstick would be a good diffuser! lol nice!
> learn something new everyday!
> btw i might have some dry fertz from GLA i could give u such as CSM-B, KN03, KH2pO4, GH booster, maybe even flourish root tabs lol i gotta go look
> i dont think u will have a problem with the co2 at night
> loooking nice man!


Credit for the chopstick diffuser goes to customdrumfinishes (and other members here). It seems to work good and it's especially nice because chopsticks certainly aren't short in supply, especially here in Hawaii.

Never used dry fertz before. Are they difficult to use (i.e. measure out, dose daily, etc.)? I might give it a try.


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## trigun808 (May 18, 2008)

uhhh u just gotta figure a schedule out, i forgot how, u can probably ask one of the guys here about it
i use to dose csm like idk mon,wed,fri? i did it, and its not so hard
there might be dosing charts online like tom barr?


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## DataLifePlus (Nov 4, 2008)

Okay... so the problems have started. 

First of all, most of the new plants are not doing so well. Most of the micro chain swords in the back are dying off. The corkscrew val is also losing a lot of leaves. Some the the marsilea minuta leaves have yellowed and some have even shriveled up.










And on top of all that, I've noticed a lot of what I believe is hair algae in the java moss.










Arrrghhh!!!!

So... basically I need help. All the technical info on this tank are in this thread, but I'll post them here again for you. 

1.2 WPG, DIY CO2, black sand substrate, dosing only API Leaf Zone.


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## trigun808 (May 18, 2008)

i think u should buy excel, maybe get a diff type of substrate like ada soil or mineralized
in future upgrade light
dose other fertz as well,
i could sell u my GLA dry ferts if u want


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## trigun808 (May 18, 2008)

i think the plants arent getting enough nutrients? anyone correct me if im wrong 
and excel for the algae should work i think


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Your plants are struggling to acclimate. I have had that problem. Dosing with flourish excel 1ml daily for a week and adding 1sp of baking soda will help them acclimate. Probably just need the backing soda after doing water changes. Excel inadvertently kills many varieties of algae.

I don't see any algae in the tank. Where is it?

What is your gh, kh, ph?

To stretch the need for that lovely sand you could put plain organic dirt under it. Tis El Natural style here. That would mean at least a partial breakdown though. I think the ecosystem takes about 6 months to balance so you don't want to move the sand around for a while. Plants seem to thrive on nutrients the arrive with for max of 6 months.


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## DataLifePlus (Nov 4, 2008)

Hilde said:


> Your plants are struggling to acclimate. I have had that problem. Dosing with flourish excel 1ml daily for a week and adding 1sp of baking soda will help them acclimate. Probably just need the backing soda after doing water changes. Excel inadvertently kills many varieties of algae.
> 
> I don't see any algae in the tank. Where is it?
> 
> ...


The algae I'm dealing with is some GSA on the glass and some hair algae on the moss. You can sort of see the hair algae on the moss in this picture:










Unfortunately, I don't have a test kit or Excel right now. 

Is there any potential downside for adding the baking soda? 

Appreciate the help.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Don't add excel with Vals without doing it slowly! It will kill them in hours, trust me I know from experience. You need to acclimate them. I would not add baking soda without testing your Kh first. If you don't need it, you could be doing them harm. The plants will improve, they look like they are already rebounding. I wouldn't worry too much about the algae, just turn your lights down a bit (say 30 minutes less) until you get the algae at bay.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

DataLifePlus said:


> Unfortunately, I don't have a test kit or Excel right now.
> 
> Is there any potential downside for adding the baking soda?



Baking soda, sodium bicarbonate affects KH, not GH. It can also affect the ph. For example one person dosed with it and raised the kh by 2 degrees and the ph by .5 degrees

You at least need a ph test kit. It is a main indicator that things are changing. Stability is more important than reaching a specific goal of parameters. Fish and plants adapt in time. Just sometimes some plants die before they adjust. Until you get a ph test kit take your water to a pet store. They will test it for free. In the long run cheaper to buy a multi test kit. Can sometimes find 1 on EBay for about $15. Individual kits cheapest at Wal-Mart.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Hilde said:


> Baking soda, sodium bicarbonate affects KH, not GH. It can also affect the ph. For example one person dosed with it and raised the kh by 2 degrees and the ph by .5 degrees
> 
> You at least need a ph test kit. It is a main indicator that things are changing. Stability is more important than reaching a specific goal of parameters. Fish and plants adapt in time. Just sometimes some plants die before they adjust. Until you get a ph test kit take your water to a pet store. They will test it for free. In the long run cheaper to buy a multi test kit. Can sometimes find 1 on EBay for about $15. Individual kits cheapest at Wal-Mart.


Hilde is giving you sound advice here. :thumbsup:


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## DataLifePlus (Nov 4, 2008)

Found some old test strips today. Not sure how accurate they are, but here's what I got...

GH: 75
KH: 100
pH: 7.0

Keep in mind those are approx. numbers since these are match the color test strips.

So based on those numbers, should I add baking soda or anything else?

Thanks!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

DataLifePlus said:


> GH: 75
> KH: 100
> pH: 7.0
> 
> ...


Is that ppm or degress? 100ppm is 5.5 degrees, which is soft water. Tis the minimum you need when you add diy Co2, so I have been told.

Since you have added diy Co2 you probably won't need to add baking soda to help the plants to acclimate. If the algae doesn't go away dosing with KNO3, spetrum stump remover, may help balance the ecosystem. That is what helped me to keep BBA from coming back and I have very soft water. It has to be diluted. Check out Rex Griggs site for info.

Do you have any airaition? For have read here, lauraleellbp, that fish need airation at night.


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