# Can anyone explain why my Ludwigia 'red' is green???



## HolyAngel

Hmm I would normally say you're lighting isn't strong enough lol but I don't think that's quite the case here.. Could be wrong color temp maybe? Like the bulb isn't putting out enough in the right spectrum to make the color red.. Idk. That's about all I got if its not getting red at all by the time it hits the surface.


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## Cbwmn

I know that the WPG rule is old, BUT my L. Repens gets really red in my 16 gallon with 
2 X 40 dual daylight CFL tubes. That is 5 WPG, 7 hours photoperiod.
I also OD on FE DTPA and cut back on the KNO3.
And the closer the stem gets to the light, the redder it gets.
I also get green algae on the glass but I just scrape it off. I do a 50% WC every Friday.
Charles


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## Craigthor

My Ludwigia 'Red' that came from Tom comes in green then turns red the next day. I moved it today to a more direct lighting spot to see if that changes its growth any.

Here is where my tank sets:

3 WPG of Metal Halide using ADA 8000k 'Green' bulbs running for 10 hours a day
EI Dosing on the following-
Fri, Sun, Tues - 1.5 tsp KNO3, .5 tsp K2SO4, .5 tsp KH2PO4, .5 tsp GH Booster
Sat, Mon, Wed- .5 tsp Trace Mix (2 parts Millers, 2 parts CSM+B, 1 part Ferrous Gluconate, 1 part Iron Chleate 13%)
Water Change with 100% RO/DI reset to 1-2 KH and 3-4 GH usually 50-75% changed out
CO2 turns the DC light green almost yellow
Tons of flow and filtration

Craig


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## Jeffww

Looks like plain l. repens now...I'm almost inclined to say ludwigia "red" is just l. repens that has wound up in the care of more experienced hobbyists so they stay blood red instead of the green-red that the more inexperienced hobbyist attains...here's my L. repens in a high light 20gal


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## Cardinal Tetra

I think Cavan Allen said it's a strain of Ludwigia palustris if we want to start getting picky


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## bsmith

I just don't get it. Tons of co2, good feet routine, good substrate, plenty of light, nice soft water and sometimes......... I sing to it.


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## Jeffww

Maybe this is ludwigia sp. 'masochist'? Rough it up a little, maybe then it'll know who's boss lol.


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## 150EH

How long is your photo period? Most claim bright light and high Fe for red plants.


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## Centromochlus

Same thing happened to me... My Ludwigia 'red' was colored up when i got it, turned green for a few days, then quickly turned red again. Just give it time. You've got plenty of light.


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## bsmith

My pp is only about 5-6 hours. I cant go too crazy with the MH on there or im afraid ill get a crazy algae fest. I also have Rotala Sunset in the tank which is a crazy red/pink plant and its color is beautiful. 

Im sure it could be more red but...


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## Jeffww

Maybe you could do a split photoperiod? My photoperiod is 2-6 8-12 split with a 2 hour block of darkness.


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## bsmith

That wouldn't be a bad idea but I have just never been a big fan of the split PP. Just seems a bit goofy to me! 

I also don't see the benefit unless I could add an hour (30 mins to each split) but im not sure if that would make any difference.


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## ThinkTank

I had a similar problem when i got mine. They were under 2 6500k cfls and all the new growth came in green...and the parts that were already red slowly started to fade. I swapped one of the bulbs for a 2700k and the problem was solved.

I can't say for sure it was the new bulb or if there was just an adjustment period and it would have gone red on its own given time, but its something to consider.


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## HD Blazingwolf

lol mine turns nice red when it gets close to the surface but my bottom half grows bba.. plenty of c02. almsot gassing fish with a yellow drop checker.. PLENTY OF LIGHT and ferts

who knows what contributes. im jealous of jeff at how red his is all the way down.. like i said mine turns red right at the top.. i can't move lights any closer or boom algae everywhere


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## nalu86

Try to stop dosing for a week, it will probably turn red.

I have some in high light with MTS and CO2 and its green with tops red
And I have some in low light, with MTS, no ferts no co2 and its RED.


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## HD Blazingwolf

yes low nitrates will cause it to turn red. that is a fact but high light will do it too.. and no one with any decent amount of light wants to stop fertilizing else algae will go BOOM


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## shrimpnmoss

nalu86 said:


> Try to stop dosing for a week, it will probably turn red.
> 
> I have some in high light with MTS and CO2 and its green with tops red
> And I have some in low light, with MTS, no ferts no co2 and its RED.


Whew...I though I was the only one due to lack to plant skills....

Tom doses all the time and his stays red. The same plant in my tank the new growth is greenish also. I though it was because I"m using stratum vs AS. I dose daily also. One 6700k and one 10000k bulb.:icon_mad:


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## HD Blazingwolf

there is a mystic bond somewhere many of us are missing. root tabs. good circulation. good c02 levels, good lights, EI dosing, water changes. mid level water hardness around 5 dh, good maintenance... etc
many of us have those things going for us but somehow we are missing something somewhere that relates to a few plants being what we expect them to be.. i wish i knew. i can recreate many of these colors under very specific conditions, but it causes other plants in my tank to have problems.


EDIT: before someone shoots me. its not mystic or magical. but we are missing something


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## shrimpnmoss

I have root tabs also...but that's not helping.


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## HD Blazingwolf

what i was trying to say is there is a group of us that have all of the above.. and still apparently we are missing something


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## Eldachleich

How did you get ti so green? Mine just stays blood red no matter what... theres no fertz or co2 in my tank and its stays red... I've been trying to get it down to a nice green tinged with pink..... I really dont want red...


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## Jeffww

HD Blazingwolf said:


> lol mine turns nice red when it gets close to the surface but my bottom half grows bba.. plenty of c02. almsot gassing fish with a yellow drop checker.. PLENTY OF LIGHT and ferts
> 
> who knows what contributes. im jealous of jeff at how red his is all the way down.. like i said mine turns red right at the top.. i can't move lights any closer or boom algae everywhere


Just lots of light...I think at the time I was dry dosing with csm AND using flourish micros.


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## zergling

My Ludwigia 'Red' started turning green on me when I did a 4.5 day blackout. When everything got back to normal, it's back to red again. I do have some strong lighting.

Is your CO2 turned on before your lights? One thing I noticed with my rotalas (forgot which sp), which did not apply to these ludwigias, was that when my CO2 was turned on 2 hours before the lights, the rotalas turned bright green. My theory is that with the dim ambient room lighting and the high CO2, the rotala was turning green in effort to get as much light as possible. 

Now that I have a pH controller, my CO2 is blasted strong and only 30 minutes before the lights, and my photoperiod extended back to 8 hours, the rotalas are starting to turn yellowish, which I think will eventually turn red.
TLDR - maybe high CO2 + dim ambient lighting is causing it to turn green? I doubt it though, as this trend I only saw on rotalas, and not on the ludwigia red....

Actually....I can't imagine any "red" plant going green under a 70W metal halide....

PS - to the l.repens comment. I've had that weed before, the ludwigia 'red' is much more crimson red, a little smaller than repens, and grows a bajillion times slower. Also has much of less of a tendency to have roots springing out of the stems.


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## HD Blazingwolf

i will add to this. i can't go any stronger with light without needing more c02. at which point my fish will die. i have excellent aeration of the water.. plants pearl like crazy from 1 hour after lights on to lights out...i have a sprite tank at this point

i can't get red except from about 3 inches from water surface.. if i lower my lights at all.. i have algae

i must be a bad hoobyist


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## Jeffww

HD Blazingwolf said:


> i will add to this. i can't go any stronger with light without needing more c02. at which point my fish will die. i have excellent aeration of the water.. plants pearl like crazy from 1 hour after lights on to lights out...i have a sprite tank at this point
> 
> i can't get red except from about 3 inches from water surface.. if i lower my lights at all.. i have algae
> 
> i must be a bad hoobyist



Probably just bad luck. I had only diy yeast and 48watts t5ho at the time.


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## HD Blazingwolf

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA i almost hate you!!!
oh well.. my ludwigia glandulosa looks AWESOME!


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## zergling

bsmith - what reflectors are you using with your metal halide? It's been years since I've done research on metal halides, but if I remember correctly, the PAR significantly drops off at the outer edges without the proper reflectors. Can you try relocating one or two stems to right smack below the mh? Basically put it where the light is strongest, to see if it makes a difference.


On a side but still on-topic note -- In my tank, this plant stays red even without trace dosing. The first few weeks of my tanks, I did not bother dosing any trace. Right now, I only dose 15mL of Seachem Flourish when I remember to. I'll try to mimic Tom's CSM+B and Iron dosing later on, to see if that changes things.


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## HD Blazingwolf

zerg i got just as much red with flourish ferts and low c02 as i have with higher lights. more c02 and EI dosing with dry stuff.. the difference is the health of the plant. i have no algae on leaves now


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## zergling

HD Blazingwolf said:


> zerg i got just as much red with flourish ferts and low c02 as i have with higher lights. more c02 and EI dosing with dry stuff.. the difference is the health of the plant. i have no algae on leaves now


Good to hear, HD. Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

My post was basically to mention that I don't think Fe or trace dosing is a factor with this particular plant in a high light high co2 high nutrients tank. 

In the end, I'm still just as clueless as anyone as to why this is turning green for bsmith....


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## Craigthor

After moving mine to more dierct light it is turning red overnight as it grows new leaves. I do run a really long photoperiod of about 10 hours.

Craig


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## bsmith

Lots of action on this topic so ill try to touch on everything. 

My light is a JBJ Viper, which from what I believe is about as good as its going to get without getting stupid with $. 

The plants are in the back left corner so ill move them to a more centralized area and see what happens. 

My N is 10-20ppm which in my book is pretty low. I'm not sure if I feel comfortable trying to get it any lower just to try to turn this weed red! 

The comment about co2 being on before the lights has me thinking. My office has glass in the front that connects to the showroom in the dealership I work at which is completely surrounded with glass (not to mention the florescent lighting in the office). I have my co2 on about 2 hours before the lights hit. 

Does anyone else have anything else to say about this theory/point?


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## shrimpnmoss

My CO2 is on 24/7 drop checker borderline light green with shades of yellow.


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## HD Blazingwolf

mine turns on 45 min before lights on. it gets partial light from a huge window that does not ever get direct light

craig's post got me thinking as well.. i've noticed the further away from the corner mine gets the redder it is.. that could play a huge part. as well as photo period length. i run 8 hours because my other plants are done by then the ludwigia is still open and ready for more


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## bsmith

shrimpnmoss said:


> My CO2 is on 24/7 drop checker borderline light green with shades of yellow.


And what color is your ludwigia?


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## Craigthor

HD Blazingwolf said:


> mine turns on 45 min before lights on. it gets partial light from a huge window that does not ever get direct light
> 
> craig's post got me thinking as well.. i've noticed the further away from the corner mine gets the redder it is.. that could play a huge part. as well as photo period length. i run 8 hours because my other plants are done by then the ludwigia is still open and ready for more


Thats interesting most of my plants don't start closing up till teh very end. I've thought about pushing it to 11 hours a day but not sure if I want that battle.

Craig


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## HD Blazingwolf

my rotala used to stay open longer but i think its opening frm the light in the window now. i turn my lights on at 10 in the morning now.it used to be 8 -7 at night now its 10- 7
HAHA so i make 9 hours my bad


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## VeeSe

My L. repens is 100% green. Just saying. You can see some red on the undersides of the leaves when the lights go out, but otherwise, it's pure green. Also, my plants open up for light 4-5 hours before the lights actually turn on.


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## bsmith

I still am finding it very hard to think that the plants being in the corner may have something to do with this. 70w MH (good MH) ~2' from the substrate.


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## HD Blazingwolf

well smith. i bought a new tek fixture. geisemann bulbs and when it was 16 inches from the substrate (huge hanging error) it didn't get red till about 4 inches from the surface. now 24 inches from the substrate i get it at 3 inches.. its in the corner.. ima grab a side stem and stick it in the middle and see what happens in two weeks


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## bsmith

I may also lower my fixture a bit. I have no fauna in the tank so co2 can be cranked to the moon!

BOOOOOO The Cards lost!!! This is going to be an interesting series!


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## shrimpnmoss

bsmith said:


> And what color is your ludwigia?


Was red when Tom sent it. Now the new growth is green. I don't have MH but I am running like 46W over a 7.5 g cube. Maybe I'll try changing my bulbs, they are kinda old.


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## bsmith

Yeah, we all know that Tom has a long list of accomplishments under his belt of things that mere mortals could never pull off. 

Like...

Has bred CRS in a SW tank at 86deg that housed only lion fish

Is currently growing Trithuria Sp. in his front lawn and even zoysia grass cannot penetrate it/. 

Has a pet Arowana he routinely walks in the park and brings home blue ribbons from agility competitions. 

Won the AGA competition for a flawless Dutch style tank that is illuminated by only a Bic lighter and the source of co2 is from a custom suit he developed that captures the expelled co2 from his skin and injects it into the tank will a Rolls Royce jet engine.


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## HD Blazingwolf

a bic lighter? I ROLLED out of my chair


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## jkan0228

bsmith said:


> Yeah, we all know that Tom has a long list of accomplishments under his belt of things that mere mortals could never pull off.
> 
> Like...
> 
> Has bred CRS in a SW tank at 86deg that housed only lion fish
> 
> Is currently growing Trithuria Sp. in his front lawn and even zoysia grass cannot penetrate it/.
> 
> Has a pet Arowana he routinely walks in the park and brings home blue ribbons from agility competitions.
> 
> Won the AGA competition for a flawless Dutch style tank that is illuminated by only a Bic lighter and the source of co2 is from a custom suit he developed that captures the expelled co2 from his skin and injects it into the tank will a Rolls Royce jet engine.


This just made my day


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## bsmith

HD Blazingwolf said:


> a bic lighter? I ROLLED out of my chair





jkan0228 said:


> This just made my day




I am thinking that the lower N are what this plant needs to be red. From all the posts of people with no co2/ferts having super red plants and now mine are showing a bit of redness on the upper newer leaves after I did 2 big WC's monday and tuesday bringing the nitrates in the tank to 10ppm-20ppm on Wed. Im going to check the N right now.


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## HD Blazingwolf

my.2 on that. i repeatedly run 20 or under ppm nitrates.


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## bsmith

I just tested my N again and its a solid 20ppm. 

Cant take a macro pic with my camera for some reason... Or at least cant focus.


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## bsmith

HD Blazingwolf said:


> my.2 on that. i repeatedly run 20 or under ppm nitrates.


And again do you have red L.'red' or green L.'red'?


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## Bahugo

What color light are you using in your MH? When I used 10k bulbs (and I would imagine higher bulbs would have the same effect) I noticed alot less color from plants. 

It could be a possibility, you have everything covered.


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## zergling

I checked nitrate levels on my tank last night, it's 40+ ppm according to the API test LOL! 

I dose 3/4 tsp of KNO3 every other day and feed my fish very heavily. Ludwigia 'red' never turned green on me except during a 4.5day blackout.


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## HD Blazingwolf

i have l. red "green version" lol so i don't think low nitrates are the issue


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## bsmith

Bahugo said:


> What color light are you using in your MH? When I used 10k bulbs (and I would imagine higher bulbs would have the same effect) I noticed alot less color from plants.
> 
> It could be a possibility, you have everything covered.


The bulb is somewhere in the 5500K region. Its a Phillips master color. 



zergling said:


> I checked nitrate levels on my tank last night, it's 40+ ppm according to the API test LOL!
> 
> I dose 3/4 tsp of KNO3 every other day and feed my fish very heavily. Ludwigia 'red' never turned green on me except during a 4.5day blackout.


To me 40ppm isnt that high but maybe to the plant it is...



HD Blazingwolf said:


> i have l. red "green version" lol so i don't think low nitrates are the issue


What do you mean? You have lower N or you dont have the 'red' var?


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## HD Blazingwolf

i have 10-20 ppm nitrates. whether u consider that low or not is up to you :0
i have red version. broadleaf to be exact.. it stays green mostly. red veins at 8 inches from surface of water to red at 3 inches from surface of water..
it also appears that the close to the light you get the more horizontal the growth gets.. also with the more red it gets


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## Craigthor

On an interesting chance I moved my 'Red' to a more direct spot under the light and it is coming in more red then before still doesn't come in as red as the L. Hybrid I got from another member though.

Craig


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## HolyAngel

hmm 4 pages and i still think its either the wrong spectrum of lighting, or not enough par.. 
This is the same argument people had over limno aromatica.. i can grow it solid red from bottom to top with a 2xodno t8 12" away with no co2, but it's green with my 3 t5's 20" away, ei dosing with plenty of co2, until about 4" from the surface of the tank. ferts will NOT make a difference on the leaf color, go ask tom..


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## zergling

HolyAngel said:


> hmm 4 pages and i still think its either the wrong spectrum of lighting, or not enough par..
> This is the same argument people had over limno aromatica.. i can grow it solid red from bottom to top with a 2xodno t8 12" away with no co2, but it's green with my 3 t5's 20" away, ei dosing with plenty of co2, until about 4" from the surface of the tank. ferts will NOT make a difference on the leaf color, go ask tom..


Interesting theory. I actually just swapped bulb locations for my tank last night. Swapped the GE 6500K with the UVL Aqua Sun (slightly pinkish, listed as 10000K), and happen to have taken a pic. I'll take another pic in 2 weeks and compare. Note though that my setup is a super high light high co2 high ei dosing experiement LOL!

One thing I do like about this particular plant, is that despite being a slow grower, it has survived several sorts of algae I've dealt with in the past month or so.....talking about cyano, gsa, rhizoclonium, diatoms, and bba, in overlapping sequences!


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## ADA

I don't know if this is relevant, or if it will help, but... 

Mine is a very deep bright red, but when I cut stems off and replant them, they turn green until they grow a good root system, after which they turn bright red again.

The current leaves on the trimmings actually slowly turn from red to green.. Then as the roots get bigger and stronger the new growth all comes out nice and red.

This tells me that maybe your soil has depleted in nutrients a bit? Because that would make sense, if your water column has plenty of ferts, your light is good, you have Co2, then the roots may be the answer..


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## bsmith

Yours looks really nice and red thats for sure!

Just to specify my bulb is a Philips Mastercoluor CDM 4200k 70W Double Ended T6 Metal Halide Clear Lamp with a CRI (color rendition index which I gather is a rating on how truly the bulb replicates actual colors and this bulb has a super high rating).


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## bsmith

ADA said:


> I don't know if this is relevant, or if it will help, but...
> 
> Mine is a very deep bright red, but when I cut stems off and replant them, they turn green until they grow a good root system, after which they turn bright red again.
> 
> The current leaves on the trimmings actually slowly turn from red to green.. Then as the roots get bigger and stronger the new growth all comes out nice and red.
> 
> This tells me that maybe your soil has depleted in nutrients a bit? Because that would make sense, if your water column has plenty of ferts, your light is good, you have Co2, then the roots may be the answer..


Could be but my ADA AS is only about a year old and I supplement the substrate with RM fert tabs (RM complete+ and Fe intense).


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## HD Blazingwolf

im in awe that people can have as much light as they do sometimes with no c02. i can't survive without it.. that's off topic... im going to also try something in a week or two which is convert my substrate from flourite to layered with peat soil, laterite and then cap with flourite and put in root tabs and see what happens


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## 150EH

Man that's the longest red plant thread ever. 

I've used the split photo period with great success, it gives you a longer photo period for viewing and it really simulates what happens in the tropics daily, a bunch of big black clouds come over and it rains about an hour every afternoon, and it gives them a breather in high light, high growth tank. Plus look how much longer Craigs photo period is than yours, I've been doing a 8 hour photo period with a 2 hour burst at midday but I might go back to the split photo period because my tank used to grow like crazy with good color and I've not been firing on all 8 cylinders here lately, I hope you get it sorted out.


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## plantbrain

150EH said:


> Man that's the longest red plant thread ever.
> 
> I've used the split photo period with great success, it gives you a longer photo period for viewing and it really simulates what happens in the tropics daily, a bunch of big black clouds come over and it rains about an hour every afternoon, and it gives them a breather in high light, high growth tank. Plus look how much longer Craigs photo period is than yours, I've been doing a 8 hour photo period with a 2 hour burst at midday but I might go back to the split photo period because my tank used to grow like crazy with good color and I've not been firing on all 8 cylinders here lately, I hope you get it sorted out.


Have you measured the PAR under cloudy weather might I ask?

There's PLENTY of light, maybe 1/3 to 1/2 even under real thick cloud cover.
Which is still 200-600 umol in the water column from 2 meters on up.


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## plantbrain

bsmith said:


> Could be but my ADA AS is only about a year old and I supplement the substrate with RM fert tabs (RM complete+ and Fe intense).


The soil would only decline in NH4..........the rest should be in ample supply.

Bulb types..........KH perhaps.........many things beside N come into play.
If it is for horticulture, just buy some of the Red variety of palustris.
Then it's easy to grow and stays a nice deep red.

we have 400+ species to play with, use them.


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## bsmith

plantbrain said:


> The soil would only decline in NH4..........the rest should be in ample supply.
> 
> Bulb types..........KH perhaps.........many things beside N come into play.
> If it is for horticulture, just buy some of the Red variety of palustris.
> Then it's easy to grow and stays a nice deep red.
> 
> we have 400+ species to play with, use them.


There is no way im taking that easy of a way out Tom. I HAVE to figure out what is going on here. 

So who thinks I should lower it 6" or so?


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## Craigthor

I would drop it as low as you can but still keep coverage over the tank. 

Craig


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## bsmith

I just need to go to HD/Lowes for some supplies and ill lower it some.


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## BruceF

My bet would be the color temp of the light.


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## houseofcards

Besides the color the plant looks leggy, no. How high is the fixture currently from the surface?


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## bsmith

I would say the light is about 24" from the substrate or 12" from the water surface.


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## houseofcards

If that's the case I would definitely lower the light and see what happens. Personally I don't think your tank is 'highlight' or should I say non-limiting from that distance with a 70 MH. It would be nice to know the PAR, but not practical for most to have one. I do know that ADA recommends a 150MH over their 60p. For the tank to be non-limiting they recommend 30cm from the water's surface or 12", but that's for a 150MH. 

If you lower the light shorten your light cycle and keep your tank extra clean wthout limiting the plants.


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## Mannie Bothans

*What stays red with no added CO2?*



plantbrain said:


> we have 400+ species to play with, use them.


Can I grow any red plants? Maybe if I stack up some rocks and plant on top of them nearer to the top of the aquarium where the lights are-- will anything ever be red under these lights with no additional injected CO2?

Right now I have 1 30inch long dual lamp T5 Aqueon light 18W+18W=36W (like the coralife ones). I also have 1 24 inch T8 20w. 

Side to side tank width = 30 inches
Front to back tank depth = 18 inches
Top to bottom tank height = 24 inches

My new tank came with a T8 24inch single 20w white-"reflector" Perfecto strip. I also bought the best I could find locally: an Aqueon brand dual-lamp, 30inch long set with a very square mirror reflector and 2 included 18W(each) T5-sized bulbs. My tank is a 56Gallon tank that is 30inches wide, 18inches from front-to-back, and 24inches tall. This is a picture of the lighting I now have:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12554833/lights.jpg

Right now I have some plants in buckets while I am waiting for my Aquasoil to arrive. My Ludwigia Rubin is turning green and has only been here a few days. I don't plan on using all of the following, but will need to pick the hardiest for my tank based on what I have, but I'd like one or two bright reds if I can somehow swing it without the added CO2. Here's what I have now:

Rotala Singapore 
Rotala Colorata 
Ambulia
Myriophyllum mattogrossense 
Rotala macrandra green 
Rotala macrandra red 
Ludwigia Lacustris
Polygonum Kawagoeanum
Pogostemon erectus 
Myrio Red 
Ludwigia sp Rubin 
Bacopa Madagascariensis
Lindernia sp India
Rotala wallichii 
Limnophila Vietnam 'mini'
Ludwigia x Arcuata
Rotala macrandra red needel 
Liliaeopsis Brasiliensis 
Limnophila aromatica 
Staurogyne repens 
Hygrophila difformis 
Ranunculus inundatus 
Syngonanthus sp. 'Belem' 
Hygrophila sp. 'Bold' 
Limnophila mini 
Hygrophila difformis
Anubias nana
Java fern
Marsilea 

Some pics at http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...ssion/152608-help-im-killing-my-plants-i.html


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## plantbrain

Jeffww said:


> Looks like plain l. repens now...I'm almost inclined to say ludwigia "red" is just l. repens that has wound up in the care of more experienced hobbyists so they stay blood red instead of the green-red that the more inexperienced hobbyist attains...here's my L. repens in a high light 20gal


No, it's a different variant. I've grown plenty of normal repens/palustris, this is nothing like it.

It should stay red.


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## plantbrain

bsmith said:


> I would say the light is about 24" from the substrate or 12" from the water surface.


Mine is about 1 meter away.

:hihi:


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## sewingalot

Yeah, this is ludwigia sp 'red' Jeffww. It's said so far to be a hybrid of ludwigia palustris, but not really known what yet. This is a plant even I have been able to grow red. That's saying something.


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## houseofcards

plantbrain said:


> Mine is about 1 meter away.
> 
> :hihi:


You must have tall ceilings :biggrin:


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## plantbrain

sewingalot said:


> Yeah, this is ludwigia sp 'red' Jeffww. It's said so far to be a hybrid of ludwigia palustris, but not really known what yet. This is a plant even I have been able to grow red. That's saying something.


:icon_eek:


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## sewingalot

Priceless. I just made Tom speechless. Haha! :tongue:


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## plantbrain

houseofcards said:


> You must have tall ceilings :biggrin:


18" tank + 20" high bulbs = 1 meter or close.


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## houseofcards

plantbrain said:


> 18" tank + 20" high bulbs = 1 meter or close.


Thought you were referring to the distance from the surface. LOL.


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## Mannie Bothans

sewingalot said:


> Yeah, this is ludwigia sp 'red' Jeffww. It's said so far to be a hybrid of ludwigia palustris, but not really known what yet. This is a plant even I have been able to grow red. That's saying something.


Is l.rubin different than l.red? If so, where can I get some l.red?


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## bsmith

plantbrain said:


> 18" tank + 20" high bulbs = 1 meter or close.


I hate you!!!

I try everything I can and cant even get a fraction of the color you have in that tank!!!!!!!!

I dont get it. Really I dont...


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## bsmith

It has to be lack of something. Even if lighting is not intense (which I just lowered ~6" so that should help) there has to be a lack of some nutrient in there. I tested my kH a few days ago and it was less then 1 so I just decided to put some gH booster in the tank, 1/4 tsp hoping that there is something in there that I'm missing.


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## Craigthor

bsmith said:


> It has to be lack of something. Even if lighting is not intense (which I just lowered ~6" so that should help) there has to be a lack of some nutrient in there. I tested my kH a few days ago and it was less then 1 so I just decided to put some gH booster in the tank, 1/4 tsp hoping that there is something in there that I'm missing.


Should add some baking soda for your kh, not sure the GH booster will do anything for the Kh of the tank.

Craig


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## bsmith

Craigthor said:


> Should add some baking soda for your kh, not sure the GH booster will do anything for the Kh of the tank.
> 
> Craig


Im thinking the gH is super low too, since I just use 100% RO and add nothing back into it.


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## Craigthor

bsmith said:


> Im thinking the gH is super low too, since I just use 100% RO and add nothing back into it.


Yeah you could be short on Calcium, Magnesium and Potassium unless you are dosing K2SO4 during the week. I know I've had to up my EI dosings but am getting better responses out of the plants. Currently here is what I'm doing during the week:

Fri, Sun, Tues: 2 tsp KNO3, 1 tsp KH2PO4, .5 tsp K2SO4
Sat, Mon, Wed: Heaping .5 tsp Trace mix
Waterchange: 1 tbsp GH Booster 1.5 tsp backing soda

I'm dosing less Potassium during the week as the GH Booster has a fairly large amount of it in there by what I've heard it is almost half Potassium.

Craig


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## plantbrain

bsmith said:


> I hate you!!!
> 
> I try everything I can and cant even get a fraction of the color you have in that tank!!!!!!!!
> 
> I dont get it. Really I dont...


Hehe, it's "magic fertilizer dust".

I really have no secrets, nor do any that grow well.
We all try and help folks grow nice tanks etc.

I've said this for a long while, mostly it's CO2, good water changes, moderately low lighting.

Ferts are part, but a relatively SMALL part.

The other part is just good care and being watchful, if the plants are not growing, rule things out stepwise.

Then from there, simply gardening and not giving up and settling.


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## HD Blazingwolf

smith im with u.... so what is the species jeff has again? can someone clarify that for us all?


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## bsmith

Craigthor said:


> Yeah you could be short on Calcium, Magnesium and Potassium unless you are dosing K2SO4 during the week. I know I've had to up my EI dosings but am getting better responses out of the plants. Currently here is what I'm doing during the week:
> 
> Fri, Sun, Tues: 2 tsp KNO3, 1 tsp KH2PO4, .5 tsp K2SO4
> Sat, Mon, Wed: Heaping .5 tsp Trace mix
> Waterchange: 1 tbsp GH Booster 1.5 tsp backing soda
> 
> I'm dosing less Potassium during the week as the GH Booster has a fairly large amount of it in there by what I've heard it is almost half Potassium.
> 
> Craig


I just use RM liquid ferts and from time to time add a bit of dry N and K. 



plantbrain said:


> Hehe, it's "magic fertilizer dust".
> 
> I really have no secrets, nor do any that grow well.
> We all try and help folks grow nice tanks etc.
> 
> I've said this for a long while, mostly it's CO2, good water changes, moderately low lighting.
> 
> Ferts are part, but a relatively SMALL part.
> 
> The other part is just good care and being watchful, if the plants are not growing, rule things out stepwise.
> 
> Then from there, simply gardening and not giving up and settling.


I know and thats why I dont understand. I change 50% of the water weekly with RO/DI, fertilize the way I should, have the co2 sky high and have good lighting. It is nonsensical. :angryfire



HD Blazingwolf said:


> smith im with u.... so what is the species jeff has again? can someone clarify that for us all?


Not sure. I thought it was L.'red'...


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## houseofcards

plantbrain said:


> ...
> I've said this for a long while, mostly it's CO2, good water changes, moderately low lighting.
> 
> Ferts are part, but a relatively SMALL part...
> .


I would agree with alot of selective horticulture that is a good environment to work in, but I don't think it's that inclusive. If you go to a taller tank and go with plants that have the ability to turn red, but run green under many conditions I don't think it flies. I've had L. Aromatic and R. Rotundfolia under the same conditions in several tanks and when I went to a stronger light and/or shorter tank I got more reds.


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## houseofcards

Jeffww said:


> Looks like plain l. repens now...I'm almost inclined to say ludwigia "red" is just l. repens that has wound up in the care of more experienced hobbyists so they stay blood red instead of the green-red that the more inexperienced hobbyist attains...here's my L. repens in a high light 20gal


Also if you look at Jeff's plant, it's got beautiful color, but if you look closer under the top branches there is alot of green. If the light doesn't really matter (or low light is fine) why isn't the entire plant the deep red. It's the same water parameters.


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## bsmith

I really don't think lighting is the issue hear. I think I'm running some weird water that is heavy in some ferts but not others. 

Just don't know exactly what yet...


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## plantbrain

I dose heavy EVERYTHING except light.

See the 120 gal update


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## Jeffww

HD Blazingwolf said:


> smith im with u.... so what is the species jeff has again? can someone clarify that for us all?


Plain old L. repens from FAN. It grew red like that for me all the time...Although it did like to stunt if I stopped dosing Boron...strangely enough.


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## 150EH

It seems like my new Fe is intensifying the color of my plants quickly just like the chelated iron I use on my lawn, I know there is a big argument on Fe regarding the kH and other factors that relates to the amount you dose and how long it is available to the plants. If you are using Fe root tabs the Fe may dissipate quickly and all you have left is N,P,K so I would try light and Fe and what's to lose. oh $15 on the Fe, I got the chelate that GLA sells, good luck Red.

I still stand buy my light schedule with the break for an hour it did work well, my par meter grows out of the substrate.


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## plantbrain

In general, people horribly under dose traces, they have generally for the last well......since this hobby started. Karl Schoder was the only person back in the 1990's that suggested higher ppm's of Fe, roughly 0.5-0.7ppm per dosing to the water column. I still dose this amount today.

This is 5-10 what most suggest(except me).

Here's some plain old L repens from the Rainbow river at 15ft:
It can get nice and red.......the sediment is limestone and the CO2 is is about 10-18 ppm.


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## Jeffww

Perhaps his substrate is too acidic? Just a shot in the dark...The tank in which you see the repens in actually has ~1/2 cm layer of crushed coral under pfs and is root fertilized with some clay balls.


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## bsmith

Dunno, im going to see how lowering the light and that gH booster does over the next few days. 

Tom, are any of the plants you have in there 'soft water' plants? I have a feeling you will say that growing erios and syngonanthus in hard water isnt an issue but I have done crazy WC's on my home tank where the TDS was above 350ppm and now is ~200ppm and my toninas and syngonanthus are actually looking happy again! 

This is where dosing gH booster and epsom salt trouble me as they raise the TDS so much to a level that you couldn't say that the water was 'soft' anymore and those plants start to suffer...


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## houseofcards

plantbrain said:


> ..
> 
> Here's some plain old L repens from the Rainbow river at 15ft:
> It can get nice and red.......the sediment is limestone and the CO2 is is about 10-18 ppm.


Whats the PAR in that river where he grabbed the repens? I have to imagine the PAR is pretty high even under that water compared to most fish tanks. He also has just a snorkel so he was probably pretty close to the surface.


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## houseofcards

BTW someone on APC tested PAR two feet below the surface of their pond and had a reading of 800. What's considered high light on the chart 75?


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## BruceF

I am still betting on the light as the problem.


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## Dempsey

I have L repens in my high light 75 and in my low light 29.

My 29 had a T5NO fixture on it until about 3 weeks ago. The ballast died and I'm waiting for a new one. I put a standard 1 bulb T12 fixture on it to get me by. 

I am dosing standard EI with extra Fe. Even now with low light. I am injecting co2 also. Even still.

Now, the only thing that has changed is the amount of light that this plant is getting, of course lowering it's fert needs.

This plant has never been a deeper red for me. It looks like blood is doing to start leaking from it.

Is this because now, ALL ferts are in large amounts? That is the only thing that I can think of. I beleive this is the case. Needless to say, I will be increasing the amounts that I dose once I receive my new fixture.

Something so simple.... Makes you think though.


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## houseofcards

Dempsey said:


> I have L repens in my high light 75 and in my low light 29.
> 
> My 29 had a T5NO fixture on it until about 3 weeks ago. The ballast died and I'm waiting for a new one. I put a standard 1 bulb T12 fixture on it to get me by.
> 
> I am dosing standard EI with extra Fe. Even now with low light. I am injecting co2 also. Even still.
> 
> Now, the only thing that has changed is the amount of light that this plant is getting, of course lowering it's fert needs.
> 
> This plant has never been a deeper red for me. It looks like blood is doing to start leaking from it.
> 
> Is this because now, ALL ferts are in large amounts? That is the only thing that I can think of. I beleive this is the case. Needless to say, I will be increasing the amounts that I dose once I receive my new fixture.
> 
> Something so simple.... Makes you think though.


Was the plant already red? Do you have other plants that got more red or only the L. Repens?


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## Dempsey

houseofcards said:


> Was the plant already red? Do you have other plants that got more red or only the L. Repens?


 
They were red-ish before. Not really red. 

I also have another type of ludwigia in there too that the same thing is happening too. I will takes pics tonight.

I also have some hygo that is starting to look like crap. That could be from it adjusting to the lower light I'd imagine..


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## Dempsey

FYI, these same plants do get more red as they would get closer to the lights in both tanks. This time though, they are dark red low in the tank. Lower then they have ever been.

I did also increase the photo time with this T12. Not sure if that would really make a difference though.


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## HD Blazingwolf

what i wanna know is.. how do u have 800 par and no algae?


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## HD Blazingwolf

houseofcards said:


> BTW someone on APC tested PAR two feet below the surface of their pond and had a reading of 800. What's considered high light on the chart 75?


what i wanna know is.. how do you have 800 par and no algae? according to all aquarium principles i've learned. c02 would be in the bajillion range (joking) and the plant growth would be like 7 feet per day.. as 80 par grows most stem plants an inch or two per week


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## HolyAngel

Daily Iron will make a big difference.. and it sounds like you now have the tank non limited except for light. Sounds good ^^


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## zergling

Hey bsmith, have you moved a stem or two to directly under the center of your metal halide light? If so, notice anything yet on the new growth?

I've switched the bulb configuration on my high light tank, and after about an inch of growth, my ludwigia red is still just as red under the GE6500K bulb versus the UVL Aqua Sun bulb (listed as 10,000K).
My substrate is ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia II from all the way back in 2007. Yup, 4+ year old soil.
My trace dosing is 15mL of Seachem Flourish if I remember to.....which is basically once or twice a week.


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## IWANNAGOFAST

Mine stays red under LEDs, but not a deep deep red, kinda turns a little yellow/orangish.


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## bsmith

I'm 100% convinced that fertilizing inadiquicies have caused the plants in this tank to languish. Monday I will be performing a very large WC and will begin dosing straight dry EI micros and macros. I have a very good feeling within weeks everything in this tank will be scrumtrilescent!


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## bsmith

HolyAngel said:


> Daily Iron will make a big difference.. and it sounds like you now have the tank non limited except for light. Sounds good ^^


It was pleasure meeting you and Amy this evening. Hopefully your acclimating your shrimp and your enjoying your new iPhone!


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## bsmith

Well after doing the 50%+ WC and dosing normal dry EI for the past week all I have to show for it is......more algae (Slimy, stringy just nasty green algae. never dealt with anything like this before) and no more red in the Ludwigia. 

I'm starting to get perturbed. 

Pics of the mess.


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## bsmith

Also, I just raised my light a couple inches. As much as I could by just shortening the angles in the mounting system from JBJ.


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## Craigthor

But look at all that pearling...


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## VeeSe

Just so you know, I also dose full EI on my tank with a little bit of extra iron and I have no red at all on my Ludiwiga repens.


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## HD Blazingwolf

keep us updated smith
my ludwigia turns bright red under rediculously high light which destroys my other plants

i can't put enough c02 in the tank for the other ones..
supposedly itll turn red with low light. i raise my light 1 inch per week until this thing turns red or my lights hit the ceiling. im at 29 inches from substrate with 2 24watt t5ho geisemann bulbs
plant is at the surface as well.. its green

3 weeks ago it turned red when i was 18 inches from susbtrate


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## houseofcards

HD Blazingwolf said:


> keep us updated smith
> my ludwigia turns bright red under rediculously high light which destroys my other plants
> 
> i can't put enough c02 in the tank for the other ones..


When yous say destroy, what is happening to the other plants?


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## zergling

Oh man, hopefully we find out what exactly is happening here.

I actually reduced my lighting drastically last weekend. Went from 4x54W to 2x54W, and changed my cover from clear fishing string to black 1/4" pond netting. The new growths on my Ludwigia reds pop up as green, but turn back to red. I'll update here on friday when I do a massive trim


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## plantbrain

I recently added some of this same species to a 350 Gal tank, 28" deep and the lighting is a full 45" away from the plant:










This plant has been in here for 3 weeks and has double in size/biomass.
The plant did pretty well at 1.2 W/gal of T5, color wise, but really perked up when I added 2.4W/gal. But I have more glass algae initially. This abates after the plants dominate a bit more.

Still, at 45" away from 2.4W/gal of light, it's still pretty low light.

Par was roughly 30 prior, now it's about 50.


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## plantbrain

houseofcards said:


> BTW someone on APC tested PAR two feet below the surface of their pond and had a reading of 800. What's considered high light on the chart 75?


Does not mean nor imply the light is fully used, just states what the weeds are being exposed too is all.........few aquatic plants will grow MORE beyond 400 umol of lighting........independent of other variables. 

Just like with dosing say 20 ppm of NO3 vs 100ppm...........plants will grow FINE in both cases and not be limited, but 100ppm is wasteful/not needed. 20ppm is fine and better management. No need to lard it on, even if doing so does no harm either. 

Same with light. 

If you subscribe the philosophy that *less is better*, then it should also extend to light, CO2 and sediments. But hobbyists RARELY argue those points/ideas. If you stick with an idea, follow it through.


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## houseofcards

plantbrain said:


> Does not mean nor imply the light is fully used, just states what the weeds are being exposed too is all.........few aquatic plants will grow MORE beyond 400 umol of lighting........independent of other variables.
> ..


I agree, but when we get down to 30 umol / 40 umol it remains to be seen if this enough to grow all plants to the fullest. The point of my post was that the pic of the diver surfacing with the red Repens it was still highlight most likely based on the umol of the Sun.



plantbrain said:


> Just like with dosing say 20 ppm of NO3 vs 100ppm...........plants will grow FINE in both cases and not be limited, but 100ppm is wasteful/not needed. 20ppm is fine and better management. No need to lard it on, even if doing so does no harm either....


Again I don't disagree, but for my lifestyle dosing in excess works better, than "micro" managing my "Macros". That's why I don't believe having a very lean water column would work for me.


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## HolyAngel

bsmith said:


> It was pleasure meeting you and Amy this evening. Hopefully your acclimating your shrimp and your enjoying your new iPhone!


Thanks! It was a pleasure meeting you as well and thanks for the mini tour 
Shrimp were acclimated for around an hour after I got home and they are doing great! and ya always nice to have a new working phone 

--

That sucks the EI didn't work out though.. overdosing phosphate tended to give me that same string/hair algea.. and overdosing of all ferts tended to stop my plants from growing at all and gave algea the go ahead.. whats strange is that erios all(still) look great, but the stems are suffering.. and that algea..

--

Tom, I don't know how you do it. You say just do "this", and it's like a world of difference between how a tank looks when you do it, and how it looks when everyone else does it lol. I still can't get my s. repens to grow like that, much less bba free..


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## dafil

3 days ago I ask a friend to give me a 1 stem of L.Repens.His tank is non CO2 enriched,22 inch deep.6xT8/non reflektors /8 inch above the water.No fertilizers,onli fish loads.This stem was obviously red,not blood red but good one.All other plants in this tank have a macro deficiency.
3 days in my tank/10gal,fish gasping at the surface,surface agitation,yellow DC,2x24w t5 with reflektors ,22inch above the substrate,EI /and this stem looks like...








This is definetely something with macros IMO


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## HD Blazingwolf

the other plants stunt due to increased lighting without increased c02. wisteria just keeps growing. i can't stop it. crypts grow black algae. rotala becomes rediculously stunted with tiny tiny TINY leaves

others do ok.


i read something that chlorophyll a reflects green light spectrum because it absorbs very little of it.
chlorophyll b is produced by plants to use more of the available light sprectrum when lighting is low. i wonder what color it reflects and maybe that's why low light tanks have such good success??
also heme which is a protein resposible for light transport in chlorophyll is red. maybe under high light there is more of the bacterial protein of heme which gives plants the red you are seeing and the color of the red is mitigated by the wavelengths not abosrbed by the chlorophyll


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## alewife

@HD Blazingwolf chlorophyll a and b are in all green-leafed plants. They have pretty similar absorption spectra, and they are both components of light harvesting antennae within chloroplasts. The reds come from carotenoids I think. Heme is only associated in the transfer of electrons between photosystem reaction centres in a separate complex, and there are many more chlorophylls and carotenoids than hemes I would guess(?).

Bump: @HD Blazingwolf chlorophyll a and b are in all green-leafed plants. They have pretty similar absorption spectra, and they are both components of light harvesting antennae within chloroplasts. The reds come from carotenoids I think. Heme is only associated in the transfer of electrons between photosystem reaction centres in a separate complex, and there are many more chlorophylls and carotenoids than hemes I would guess(?).


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