# Using Dolomite



## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

Forget using it as substrate alone...it dissolved into muddy brown water. So the gravel sized rock that is used in road construction would be a better choice for substrate. Aragonite and crushed coral is another way to go about this from what I've heard. But dosing an aquarium with the form pictured in the first post seems possible. Dirty, but possible.


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## Goomie (Jul 21, 2015)

Be careful with the pellets as they are coated with a resin.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

It would make a great substrate supplement since it dissolves.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

I find that lime number terrifying for some reason. I have no idea what lime would even do in a tank environment. I've worked with this kind of stuff around the yard due to acidic soil and it's never pleasant. I've never used pellet form so maybe it isn't as bad, but the powder is awful. 

I'm not here to tell you what to do. It does seem as though the all mighty miracle of Dolomite and the perfect formula to use is being kept secret. Crushed coral is easy. I have Aqua Clear HOB's, so I added a tiny amount to the 10 gallon in a filter bag and a slightly larger amount to the 29, also in a filter bag. If I didn't buy crushed coral, I would have bought substrate for cichlid tanks. It is made specifically to bolster pH and water hardness. It's also tank safe, so no fear of what might happen when something that typically is not found in a fish tank is introduced.

Good luck!


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

I don't know what type of resin is used to coat these pellets, but I hope it's not poison to me or my fish and plants. I poured .5 cup (I wrote 1 cup earlier, but I read the lines on the jar wrong) of the muddy water into the 20 gallon planter pond. It was already at 7.6 pH. So will it go down or up with this stuff? Will the GH be off the charts? Will the KH go off the charts too? I suspect it will.


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

Ive used limestone in my cichlid tanks. The lime I used was large rocks from a limestone quarry that I used as decorations and caves, think Texas holey rock without the holes. The most notable effect, and the reason I used it, was a ph change from out of the tap at 7.8 to 8.6 in tank.


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## Goomie (Jul 21, 2015)

I suspect greatly that your experiment will result in not only a rise in PH but the other mentioned GH and KH. Of course those plants could also die because of the resin coating. I'm sure the bag does not say what it is either.


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

Goomie said:


> Be careful with the pellets as they are coated with a resin.


I was looking at the bag and missed that. I was wondering where this info comes from. Also if it doesnt harm terrestrial plants I wonder how much danger there really is to aquatic plants? If there is a resin coating then fish and inverts may be harmed but plants I have doubts. I tend to think the rise in ph, gh, and kh would be the bigger danger if overdosed.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

thedood said:


> Ive used limestone in my cichlid tanks. The lime I used was large rocks from a limestone quarry that I used as decorations and caves, think Texas holey rock without the holes. The most notable effect, and the reason I used it, was a ph change from out of the tap at 7.8 to 8.6 in tank.


Ouch, that is taking the pH in the wrong direction for my fish and plants, I think. My understanding is that plants do well in low pH, not high. I now have to consider using Baking Soda? Yuc, more stuff. But, didn't I see a lot of carbon in the analysis? Maybe that will keep this type of Lime from raising the pH too much. I need a chemistry tune-up.


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

I think lime like this might be really useful to pre-charge kitty litter or safe-t-sorb.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

thedood said:


> I think lime like this might be really useful to pre-charge kitty litter or safe-t-sorb.


Or coir (coconut husk/bark). Coir binds calcium from what I have read. I really don't know what the ramifications are from calcium binding substrates. Is it available to plant roots touching it? Would there be less calcium in the water column? Was the ratio mentioned in another post as important 4-1 mg/ca or ca/mg? I'll have to check.

It is 4:1 Ca:Mg according to other posts.


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

AWolf said:


> Or coir (coconut husk/bark). Coir binds calcium from what I have read. I really don't know what the ramifications are from calcium binding substrates. Is it available to plant roots touching it? Would there be less calcium in the water column? Was the ratio mentioned in another post as important 4-1 mg/ca or ca/mg? I'll have to check.


From what I gather and extrapolate is stability. I have read that Montmorillonite clay absorbs carbonates from the water column causing an initial kh and ph drop. Pre-charging it with dolomite would avoid that problem and give some system stability from the get go. I am going to be testing this theory on my next tank. I will be using cat litter as a bottom layer and will be pre-charging it with dolomite.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

You can see three layers as it settles. The planter pond is clearing up already.

I forgot to add the recipe:
2.5 cups water
.5 cups pellet
Stir
Pour .5 cups into 20 gallon pond and wait for all hell to break loose.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

Smooch said:


> I find that lime number terrifying for some reason. I have no idea what lime would even do in a tank environment. I've worked with this kind of stuff around the yard due to acidic soil and it's never pleasant. I've never used pellet form so maybe it isn't as bad, but the powder is awful.
> 
> Good luck!


It stinks too. I can imagine you need a respirator when using the powder. I have no clue how this will turn out, but since I had the lime on hand and the subject came up...why not?


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

I think this is a great experiment. Dolomite is different than lime. For example dolomite will not interact with acids like limestone does. Dolomite is a much much harder stone than limestone. With that said the ph changes associated with limestone may not be as dramatic as with limestone.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

By my calculations, this is more like 2:1 Ca:Mg. So not hitting that magic 4:1 this way. Maybe the powder form comes in a 4:1?


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## Goomie (Jul 21, 2015)

thedood said:


> I was looking at the bag and missed that. I was wondering where this info comes from. Also if it doesnt harm terrestrial plants I wonder how much danger there really is to aquatic plants? If there is a resin coating then fish and inverts may be harmed but plants I have doubts. I tend to think the rise in ph, gh, and kh would be the bigger danger if overdosed.


It might not say on that bag, since it is made for gardening. 

Mostly I was referring to the kind used in construction. I read about it after that giant thread about Dolomite had posted a link to another thread in regards to Dolomite. 

It stood out to me and I wasn't sure if the OP knew about it or not.


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

AWolf said:


> By my calculations, this is more like 2:1 Ca:Mg. So not hitting that magic 4:1 this way. Maybe the powder form comes in a 4:1?


I was looking at some of the dietary dolomite powders and they are about a 2:1 ratio. 
I have been doing some research and where i think the benefit of dolomite comes in is the magnesium plays a role in the plant processing of nutrients and the creation of enzymes. Having the magnesium available to the roots in the substrate as opposed to free floating the water column may work nicely. This is of course assuming the magnesium in dolomite is readily processed by the plants, I havent got this far in my research yet.

How about this experiment awolf. Dissolve your dolomite in ro/di water and measure ph. Start soaking a clay source such as sts or cat litter. One the ph stops dropping and stabilizes drain the water from the clay source and dissolve another batch of dolomite in ro/di water and soak the clay source again. Do this process until the ph stays stable as that should indicate (in theory) that the clay has absorbed as much dolomite cations as possible. Use the clay as a substrate under or mixed with dirt and capped with sand.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

thedood said:


> How about this experiment awolf. Dissolve your dolomite in ro/di water and measure pf. Start soaking a clay source such as sts or cat litter. One the ph stops dropping and stabilizes drain the water from the clay source and dissolve another batch of dolomite in ro/di water and soak the clay source again. Do this process until the ph stays stable as that should indicate (in theory) that the clay has absorbed as much dolomite cations as possible. Use the clay as a substrate under or mixed with dirt and capped with sand.


I am more interested in soaking the coir in it since that is my current 'substrate'. The CEC of coir is very high, and it may be able to absorb this mud very well.


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

AWolf said:


> I am more interested in soaking the coir in it since that is my current 'substrate'. The CEC of coir is very high, and it may be able to absorb this mud very well.


That works to, any high cec sub. I think it will work well.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

Goomie said:


> It might not say on that bag, since it is made for gardening.
> 
> Mostly I was referring to the kind used in construction. I read about it after that giant thread about Dolomite had posted a link to another thread in regards to Dolomite.
> 
> It stood out to me and I wasn't sure if the OP knew about it or not.


I'll look for that link. It would be very important to know. If you know where to find it quickly, maybe you could link me up?


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## Goomie (Jul 21, 2015)

Click me!


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

Goomie said:


> Click me!


Thanks! Yes I see where they mention some forms of Dolomite Lime are epoxy coated for slow release. But I'm thinking the type I'm using is not coated because it readily dissolves into a silty mud. But I could be wrong, and it could be a bad thing for fish. An epoxy buildup in the tank may be bad. I just don't know.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Monitor GH, KH, pH, TDS in all the tests.


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## Goomie (Jul 21, 2015)

AWolf said:


> Thanks! Yes I see where they mention some forms of Dolomite Lime are epoxy coated for slow release. But I'm thinking the type I'm using is not coated because it readily dissolves into a silty mud. But I could be wrong, and it could be a bad thing for fish. An epoxy buildup in the tank may be bad. I just don't know.


Yes I believe the kind you have is made specifically without the resin coating but you never know with terrestrial plant based products. What may not hurt the flower might hurt the aquatic plants...


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## tapwater (Mar 31, 2016)

From my gardening memory, I think dolomite breaks down clay converting bad soil into a better quality platform for plants to grow in, and interacts with composted areas in a different way, converting it into a benign medium. Think it would be better served in the substrate rather than floating about


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I suspect our problems with, and questions about "dolomite" are largely due to the term "dolomite" being ambiguous. There is the mineral dolomite, there is the garden additive dolomite, there is the dietary supplement dolomite, etc. and they aren't the same stuff. Back in the 50's when I was in college I was a spelunker - a cave explorer. That is when I first ran into the word "dolomite", since most Missouri caves were formed in rocks which were called that. I did a lot of reading to find out what that word meant. As I recall, dolomite is not a specific molecule, as calcium carbonite (CaCO3) is. Dolomite is a mineral, just as granite is. It is made up of various ratios of calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate. The two molecules link up on a crystal level, not as a molecule.

So, when we go to a rock/gravel seller and buy their dolomite gravel, what we get is not something with a specific ratio of calcium and magnesium. When we buy a dietary supplement called dolomite, what we get could be a mix of a lot of stuff, some of which is probably calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate. And, when we buy a bag of dolomite for our garden, what we get is what the seller thinks is good for our plants and their profits.

Perhaps I'm wrong about this. If so, I'm confident that some of you will let me know:wink2:


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## MCSLABS (Apr 19, 2016)

For the inquisitive mind

Limestone, Marble, Dolomite

The protection method and difference between Marble, Limestone and Dolomite-General Industrial News-GHG Group


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

Hoppy said:


> I suspect our problems with, and questions about "dolomite" are largely due to the term "dolomite" being ambiguous. There is the mineral dolomite, there is the garden additive dolomite, there is the dietary supplement dolomite, etc. and they aren't the same stuff. Back in the 50's when I was in college I was a spelunker - a cave explorer. That is when I first ran into the word "dolomite", since most Missouri caves were formed in rocks which were called that. I did a lot of reading to find out what that word meant. As I recall, dolomite is not a specific molecule, as calcium carbonite (CaCO3) is. Dolomite is a mineral, just as granite is. It is made up of various ratios of calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate. The two molecules link up on a crystal level, not as a molecule.
> 
> So, when we go to a rock/gravel seller and buy their dolomite gravel, what we get is not something with a specific ratio of calcium and magnesium. When we buy a dietary supplement called dolomite, what we get could be a mix of a lot of stuff, some of which is probably calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate. And, when we buy a bag of dolomite for our garden, what we get is what the seller thinks is good for our plants and their profits.
> 
> Perhaps I'm wrong about this. If so, I'm confident that some of you will let me know:wink2:


No Hoppy I think you are right.


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

@Hoppy You have been doing this a long time and have done a lot of experimentation so let me ask this question and keep it in terms of heavy root feeds for now. Do you think there is any benefit to using CaMg(CO3) in the substrate lets say locked in to a high cec sub or additive like sts as opposed to using MgSO4 dosed in the water column? I guess I am curious from the point of this discussion what happens chemically to the mg forms we dose in our tanks specifically do the mg compounds break down and if so what happens to the sulfates? I realize in a high tech tank the sulfate compounds may be more in demand than fish food can supply. In a low tech tank that may not be the case and the calcium may be more beneficial. 

Lets move to stems for a second. My tanks are low tech and as of now I only dose excel with no ferts. I have a substantial growth of L. Repens and I mean substantial to the point they need trimmed as they are growing across the top of the water now they are so tall. The stem 'roots' (whats the official term for stem roots?) get long on this stand of L. repens. It seems to me if I provided additional nutrients in the substrate in a significant quantity the plant would grow fewer of these stem roots as it is getting more nutrients from the substrate. It also seems to me that the nutrients I need to provide would be a form of mg and ca. Since I use clay based soils that are red I make the assumption that I am providing enough iron in my low tech environment. I make that assumption based on my roseafolia stays fairly red even in low light. I dont know maybe I am barking up the wrong tree here and am way off base which is why I am asking. I also figure this also points to the ideas about mineralizing soil. I also wonder lets say we sprinkle a substantial quantity of a nutrient mix, any nutrient really, under a high cec product like sts, cat litter, or turface placing it diectly on the base of the aquarium. We also precharge the high cec material with the same nutrient mix and place it over the bottom. Use a high clay content soil over the sts or whatever. Plant heavy from the get go. How much of our nutrients end up loose floating in the water column as opposed to staying in the sub/soil? Will the sub and cap act as a barrier and keep them out of the water column? 

My wife tells me I over think things lol. Reading this post I tend to agree with her but hey inquiring minds want to know!!


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

*General use*

Dolomite is commonly used in a variety of products. A few of these are listed below:


antacids (neutralizes stomach acid)
base for face creams, baby powders, or toothpaste
calcium/magnesium nutritional supplements for animals and humans
ceramic glazes on china and other dinnerware (dolomite is used as source of magnesia and calcia)
fertilizers (dolomite added as soil nutrient)
glass (used for high refractive optical glass)
gypsum impressions from which dental plates are made (magnesium carbonate)
mortar and cement
plastics, rubbers, and adhesives


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

thedood said:


> @Hoppy You have been doing this a long time and have done a lot of experimentation so let me ask this question and keep it in terms of heavy root feeds for now. Do you think there is any benefit to using CaMg(CO3) in the substrate lets say locked in to a high cec sub or additive like sts as opposed to using MgSO4 dosed in the water column? I guess I am curious from the point of this discussion what happens chemically to the mg forms we dose in our tanks specifically do the mg compounds break down and if so what happens to the sulfates?


All of the simple chemicals we use for nutrients become ions in water. The MgCO3 becomes Mg++ and CO3-- ions in the water. Dolomite becomes stew of Ca++, Mg++ and CO3-- ions in water. Unless there are other ions in the water, which form insoluble compounds with any of those 3 ions, none of the ions is ever locked up and unavailable to the plants. And, MgSO4 becomes Mg++ and SO4-- ions, also always available. When a plant takes up one of those ions to use as food, that ion is replaced in the water by a different ion from the plant, which I don't recall, but it is a simple one like H+.


> I realize in a high tech tank the sulfate compounds may be more in demand than fish food can supply. In a low tech tank that may not be the case and the calcium may be more beneficial.
> 
> Lets move to stems for a second. My tanks are low tech and as of now I only dose excel with no ferts. I have a substantial growth of L. Repens and I mean substantial to the point they need trimmed as they are growing across the top of the water now they are so tall. The stem 'roots' (whats the official term for stem roots?) get long on this stand of L. repens.


Those are aerial roots, and they are not there to pick up nutrients from the water, but to anchor any piece of the stem if it breaks off and floats to another location. The amount of aerial roots seems to be unique to each plant species, not varying by how much nutrients are in the water.


> It seems to me if I provided additional nutrients in the substrate in a significant quantity the plant would grow fewer of these stem roots as it is getting more nutrients from the substrate. It also seems to me that the nutrients I need to provide would be a form of mg and ca.


 Neither Ca nor Mg are macro nutrients. Macro nutrients are nitrogen, phosphorous, potassium and carbon. Those are the most needed by all plants.


> Since I use clay based soils that are red I make the assumption that I am providing enough iron in my low tech environment.


Iron in clay is not bioavailable as it is. It needs bacteria to convert it to a bioavailable form. Chelated iron is immediately available to the plants, which is why we dose only that form of iron.


> I make that assumption based on my roseafolia stays fairly red even in low light.


Alternanthia roseafolia is a plant that is naturally red, not one that takes unusual effort to make it become red. I'm not sure if it is ever just green.


> I dont know maybe I am barking up the wrong tree here and am way off base which is why I am asking. I also figure this also points to the ideas about mineralizing soil. I also wonder lets say we sprinkle a substantial quantity of a nutrient mix, any nutrient really, under a high cec product like sts, cat litter, or turface placing it diectly on the base of the aquarium. We also precharge the high cec material with the same nutrient mix and place it over the bottom. Use a high clay content soil over the sts or whatever. Plant heavy from the get go. How much of our nutrients end up loose floating in the water column as opposed to staying in the sub/soil? Will the sub and cap act as a barrier and keep them out of the water column?


Whatever is in the substrate will soon be in the water too, but it may be that the concentration in the water won't be very high. I doubt that capping the substrate, or putting the nutrients under the substrate, will keep those nutrients out of the water at all.


> My wife tells me I over think things lol. Reading this post I tend to agree with her but hey inquiring minds want to know!!


Questions like this, that I have quite often, make me wish I had taken some botany and organic chemistry courses in college. Of course any of us can do our studying of those subjects on our own too, but I learn a lot faster with a teacher involved. And, we are more likely to learn real facts and not get as many things confused that way.


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

@Hoppy Thanks for the answer. That cleared up a lot of things for me. I appreciate it much!!


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

*Day 2*

Water is clear today. No sign of muddiness except for a very small amount silt on the bottom of the planter pond. The jar is still in three layers from darker at top, to white on bottom. I feel I could have poured in much more than .5 cups, and it would settle overnight. 

The pH is somewhere over 7.6, because I don't have a proper test for higher pH. I'll go shopping.
The KH is the real surprise. It remains at 3-4 dKH. I did not know the KH for this planter pond before I threw in the dolomite. I expected it would go high with dolomite. Not the case.
I need a TDS kit. I've never looked for them before and assume they may not be at the LFS. 
There were no fish in the little pond, so no report on that end.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Here is an opportunity to get some dolomite at a very low price Dolomite Estes Gravel at PupDaddy.com

I have never tried this site, so be willing to be disappointed.

Another source of a small amount is: Amazon.com : The Dirty Gardener Dolomite Limestone - 5 Pounds : Patio, Lawn & Garden Which is identified as "dolomite limestone", which I'm pretty sure is the same thing. And, it is mentioned as being good in an aquarium.


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## Goomie (Jul 21, 2015)

Hoppy said:


> Questions like this, that I have quite often, make me wish I had taken some botany and organic chemistry courses in college. Of course any of us can do our studying of those subjects on our own too, but I learn a lot faster with a teacher involved. And, we are more likely to learn real facts and not get as many things confused that way.


This is the reason I'm opting to take these courses (along with some marine biology). You're super knowledgeable, but you are right. Learning with an aide who is already versed in that subject is the best way I learn as well. 

Loved your answer though. Great information.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

Goomie said:


> This is the reason I'm opting to take these courses (along with some marine biology). You're super knowledgeable, but you are right. Learning with an aide who is already versed in that subject is the best way I learn as well.
> 
> Loved your answer though. Great information.


But not just any teacher. I've had bad ones. But I was lucky enough to have a chemistry teacher (inorganic, but moles are moles) that taught without a book. It was amazing. We pretend we were on a deserted island with only the Table of Elements. Using Avagadro's Number and the Table, we had to build everything we needed. Over 35yrs have passed, and I've never needed to use most of it. If only I could remember everything I've ever learned!


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## Goomie (Jul 21, 2015)

AWolf said:


> But not just any teacher. I've had bad ones. But I was lucky enough to have a chemistry teacher (inorganic, but moles are moles) that taught without a book. It was amazing. We pretend we were on a deserted island with only the Table of Elements. Using Avagadro's Number and the Table, we had to build everything we needed. Over 35yrs have passed, and I've never needed to use most of it. If only I could remember everything I've ever learned!


Yes, that's true. you're lucky to have gotten such a great teacher.  I'm still waiting on my shift change at work so I can start going to school full time at night.

But that's off topic. I hope that your experiment proves to be helpful to some.


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

Think I will try finding local sources before ordering something.

Thing is what are the chemical interactions between a slow release carbonate powder like this and tannic water flowing through a soil that is slightly acid?


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

If you only use the dolomite gravel, I read in a recent thread, the water may stay too cloudy. But will it keep your water pH around 7? Didn't I read that it stabilizes around 7? Where the powder will raise it higher?


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

AWolf said:


> If you only use the dolomite gravel, I read in a recent thread, the water may stay too cloudy. But will it keep your water pH around 7? Didn't I read that it stabilizes around 7? Where the powder will raise it higher?


Based on what I have read, and what I saw when it was used as a substrate, dolomite in any form, rocks, gravel, sand or powder, still dissolves extremely slowly. Remember, dolomite is a crystal form of material, so unless you grind it finer than the typical crystal size, if that is possible, it is still in the crystal form. I admit that I haven't tried it, so this is all based on theory, not experience.


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## theatermusic87 (Jun 22, 2014)

I have no idea what the gravel i used in my tank is composed of, though it does come from the local quarry owned by the dolomite company... so... I'm assuming they named the company that for a reason, that and the region is known for large limestone/salt/dolomite/sandstone deposits, so it's entirely likely that there is a decent amount in the gravel (1/8" grain size or so, not quite mason sand, but close) and it's been in my tanks for 2-3 years... no cloudiness, decent plant growth, though i did wash the gravel of all it's "fines" before putting it in the tanks, and that is likely why there is no cloudiness. ph7.8-8.2/ gh 7ish/ kh 7ish depending on the water coming in to the tank

I do notice a gh/kh difference of about 2 each from the tank that has straight sand in in, with the gravel tank being higher, it also results in the ph being about 0.5 higher as well


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

theatermusic87 said:


> I have no idea what the gravel i used in my tank is composed of, though it does come from the local quarry owned by the dolomite company... so... I'm assuming they named the company that for a reason, that and the region is known for large limestone/salt/dolomite/sandstone deposits, so it's entirely likely that there is a decent amount in the gravel (1/8" grain size or so, not quite mason sand, but close) and it's been in my tanks for 2-3 years... no cloudiness, decent plant growth, though i did wash the gravel of all it's "fines" before putting it in the tanks, and that is likely why there is no cloudiness. ph7.8-8.2/ gh 7ish/ kh 7ish depending on the water coming in to the tank
> 
> I do notice a gh/kh difference of about 2 each from the tank that has straight sand in in, with the gravel tank being higher, it also results in the ph being about 0.5 higher as well


Can you share a pic? I'm curious what you are using.


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## theatermusic87 (Jun 22, 2014)

thedood said:


> Can you share a pic? I'm curious what you are using.


Here ya go, I can take a picture of the pile it came from tomorrow at work, not the best of shots,... please ignore the gsa, i like it covering the column and have kept the phosphates down accordingly, it's just on the anubias, everything else is clear


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

I like that look. I'm wondering what the stone make up is.


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

AWolf said:


> Ouch, that is taking the pH in the wrong direction for my fish and plants, I think. My understanding is that plants do well in low pH, not high. I now have to consider using Baking Soda? Yuc, more stuff. But, didn't I see a lot of carbon in the analysis? Maybe that will keep this type of Lime from raising the pH too much. I need a chemistry tune-up.


I would advise not using NaCO3, as it's a bit too strongly alkaline for it's volume. It also doesn't have Calcium's and Magnesium's staying power in the presence of weak acids like tannics and CO2. 

Plants will actually do well if the pH is close to 7.0, little higher or lower does no harm.

You want your water to be close to about 6.9 ~7.4 pH with a kH of roughly 3~5 for a baseline for carbonates, with little or no CO2 present. 

It isn't so much about the pH as it's about the base of dissolved carbonate buffer concentration you will work for your fastest plant growth. The idea with CO2 injection is that you have a bit of carbonate hardness in the water, the carbonates will keep the pH swings from getting too wild with increasing or decreasing CO2 levels, and the plants switching from CO2 to carbonates for carbon if under strong lighting.. 

The carbonates will also absorb a bit of the overnight CO2 and other humic and biological acids the fish and other life put out at night. Think of the dissolved carbonates as a buffer or sponge.


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## Goomie (Jul 21, 2015)

All the information here makes me think I need a freshwater master test kit to get more accurate readings on my water...


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

Goomie said:


> All the information here makes me think I need a freshwater master test kit to get more accurate readings on my water...


They will come in handy, especially if things go south for you.


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## Goomie (Jul 21, 2015)

thedood said:


> They will come in handy, especially if things go south for you.


Oh Lord I hope that never happens. I am interested in seeing what my parameters really are


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

I dont check as often as I should maybe. Everything is growing and reproducing so I leave it alone lol.


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## Goomie (Jul 21, 2015)

Hm I seem to recall I read somewhere that dolomite will dissolve even more slowly in a higher PH water. Considering mine is so alkaline that my cheap test strips instantly turn the darkest color possible, I am not sure the dolomite would even help without the chemical modifications I do to it before adding it to the tank. I would not mind trying dolomite out if I ever decided to do a tear down or even start a new tank, but I think I would need to do an experiment like our OP here to see how it interacts with my water. Boy it would be nice if it made my water that perfect 7 lol... As it is my tank sits at about 7.6 (with the neutralizing buffer added)


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## theatermusic87 (Jun 22, 2014)

Goomie said:


> All the information here makes me think I need a freshwater master test kit to get more accurate readings on my water...


As it relates to this discussion you would be better served with high and low range ph as well as gh/kh tests, might also do well with a calcium test, at least with regards to the discussion... the matter test kit is only going to have the everything else ammonia, nitrate, nitrite aren't really relevant and tbh don't really need regular testing anyways


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## Goomie (Jul 21, 2015)

theatermusic87 said:


> As it relates to this discussion you would be better served with high and low range ph as well as gh/kh tests, might also do well with a calcium test, at least with regards to the discussion... the matter test kit is only going to have the everything else ammonia, nitrate, nitrite aren't really relevant and tbh don't really need regular testing anyways


Oh! Well then I know what to look for then. Thank you


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

Goomie said:


> Hm I seem to recall I read somewhere that dolomite will dissolve even more slowly in a higher PH water. Considering mine is so alkaline that my cheap test strips instantly turn the darkest color possible, I am not sure the dolomite would even help without the chemical modifications I do to it before adding it to the tank. I would not mind trying dolomite out if I ever decided to do a tear down or even start a new tank, but I think I would need to do an experiment like our OP here to see how it interacts with my water. Boy it would be nice if it made my water that perfect 7 lol... As it is my tank sits at about 7.6 (with the neutralizing buffer added)


I used to worry about ph and I quite worrying about it. My tap is 7.8. Our city water comes from a limestone well and is like liquid rock. I fight water spots on my outer glass constantly. My plants grow, my fish live and seem to thrive so I said heck with it lol. 

I think my main curiosity has been about the ability of high cec subs to hold certain nutrients and the benefits of loading up on those. One question @Hoppy with his earlier post has me wondering is the breakdown of the nutrients into the ions. My understanding of cec is that it will hold the positive ions like the ca and mg but the so4 asa negative ion isnt. So if precharging one is left with the ca and mg but the so4 or co3 would be left free floating and when dried only the mg and ca would be left behind. Maybe Hoppy can clear this up if I am misunderstanding or tell me to find out for myself. Interesting stuff to ponder none the less.


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## Goomie (Jul 21, 2015)

thedood said:


> I used to worry about ph and I quite worrying about it. My tap is 7.8. Our city water comes from a limestone well and is like liquid rock. I fight water spots on my outer glass constantly. My plants grow, my fish live and seem to thrive so I said heck with it lol.












My pH is close to being liquid drain cleaner I think. I'll have to do a more accurate test to be sure but I definitely cannot expose my fish to this lol.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

thedood said:


> I think my main curiosity has been about the ability of high cec subs to hold certain nutrients and the benefits of loading up on those. One question @Hoppy with his earlier post has me wondering is the breakdown of the nutrients into the ions. My understanding of cec is that it will hold the positive ions like the ca and mg but the so4 asa negative ion isnt. So if precharging one is left with the ca and mg but the so4 or co3 would be left free floating and when dried only the mg and ca would be left behind. Maybe Hoppy can clear this up if I am misunderstanding or tell me to find out for myself. Interesting stuff to ponder none the less.


It isn't that the nutrient molecules break down in water, it is that "dissolving" in water means the cations and anions exist in the water as ions, not as molecules of matched pairs of cations and anions. That is really what dissolving means. A high CEC, as I understand it means that the positive ions, the metals, for example, are tied to the substance with the high CEC, making them easier for plant roots to pick them up. They are still there, just less mobile. If you then start evaporating the water, eventually the water can't hold that much in solution so the ions match up, leaving undissolved molecules in the water. Nothing lost or gained. Not being a chemist or botanist I have only a hazy understanding of this.


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## Goomie (Jul 21, 2015)

Hoppy said:


> It isn't that the nutrient molecules break down in water, it is that "dissolving" in water means the cations and anions exist in the water as ions, not as molecules of matched pairs of cations and anions. That is really what dissolving means. A high CEC, as I understand it means that the positive ions, the metals, for example, are tied to the substance with the high CEC, making them easier for plant roots to pick them up. They are still there, just less mobile. If you then start evaporating the water, eventually the water can't hold that much in solution so the ions match up, leaving undissolved molecules in the water. Nothing lost or gained. Not being a chemist or botanist I have only a hazy understanding of this.


So, as stated before, the dolomite could help precharge a high CEC substrate (safe-t-sorb or turface) to make it more effective out the gate. Did I understand that right?


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

@Hoppy Thanks for the reply. I am going to look into this some more as the whole concept fascinates me, I just need to find some research that is written in a way that I as a non-chemist can grasp it. 

From what I am reading I am concluding with my water chemistry out of the tap I would gain little using dolomite and simply soaking clays in my tap would help and I would avoid the ph, kh, and gh drop initially observed when using them thereby giving me a little added stability out of the chute with a new tank.

Bump:


Goomie said:


> So, as stated before, the dolomite could help precharge a high CEC substrate (safe-t-sorb or turface) to make it more effective out the gate. Did I understand that right?


I am gathering that there would be no advantage in a highly mineralized tap water and that soaking in the tap water would be sufficient.


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

I used to have a Corallife digital pH pen. I traded for with the caveat that it was permanently out of spec by -0.3 on the scale. You had to buy this really expensive cleaning solution and pH calibration test solution to use it, or it would get even wackier readings as it's use progressed. $149 bucks new for that POJ back in '93

Now you can get these for $15 Digital PH Meter + TDS Tester Aquarium Pool Hydroponic Water Monitor 0-9999 PPM - Tmart


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

I think it is a possibility that Dolomite would be a bad thing if it raises pH to 8+pH. I am afraid I would have to use Baking Soda with my weekly ferts to keep the pH down. I'm not sure I like that. 

So I atill wonder what type/amount will keep pH around 7. Or if it is impossible for some of us with certain water chemistry.


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

AWolf said:


> I think it is a possibility that Dolomite would be a bad thing if it raises pH to 8+pH. I am afraid I would have to use Baking Soda with my weekly ferts to keep the pH down. I'm not sure I like that.
> 
> So I atill wonder what type/amount will keep pH around 7. Or if it is impossible for some of us with certain water chemistry.


Baking soda should make it rise worse. Calcium carbonate should not raise your pH that much, especially with well water if it's rich in CO2 to begin with. I'd think it would get to about 7.4 at the optimum carbonate hardness.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

GrampsGrunge said:


> Baking soda should make it rise worse. Calcium carbonate should not raise your pH that much, especially with well water if it's rich in CO2 to begin with. I'd think it would get to about 7.4 at the optimum carbonate hardness.


But my pH did rise over 7.6 once I added the stuff. I'm betting I'm in the 8's now. I need to get a higher register test, but I know the pH went up. Other's stated on the forum that the addition of dolomite was to raise their pH from 7's to 8's for cichlid tanks.


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

Mine went up to just south of 9 with limestone rock, from 7.8 from the tap.


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## Goomie (Jul 21, 2015)

AWolf said:


> But my pH did rise over 7.6 once I added the stuff. I'm betting I'm in the 8's now. I need to get a higher register test, but I know the pH went up. Other's stated on the forum that the addition of dolomite was to raise their pH from 7's to 8's for cichlid tanks.


I feel like maybe this is a given considering the bag literally says it raises pH.


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

AWolf said:


> But my pH did rise over 7.6 once I added the stuff. I'm betting I'm in the 8's now. I need to get a higher register test, but I know the pH went up. Other's stated on the forum that the addition of dolomite was to raise their pH from 7's to 8's for cichlid tanks.


You should not need to add that much Ca03. It has to do with it's atomic number, as an alkaline earth metal, Sodium is a lot more chemically reactive and capable of making bad alkali burns than Calcium or Magnesium. 

Think of Crystal Drano, it's pure Sodium Hydroxide. It melts flesh. 

They use Calcium Hydroxide in concrete, you can handle fresh wet concrete contact with your bare skin as long as you do wash it off soon.

Not so with Sodium Hydroxide, it's downright dangerous.

Carbonates are orders of magnitudes less in degrees of pH alkalinity strength to Hydroxides.

What I'm trying to convey here is that Dolomite, Calcium carbonates and Magnesium Carbonates are, by themselves, going to be some of the least chemically reactive compounds you can add to your water, *within moderation*.. Which means not dumping a full half cup of the stuff into a 20 gallon aquarium/container. I'm thinking less than 1/4 teaspoons per gallon of water or less range to slowly build to a target of 3~4 kH.

The stuff they use for African rift lake ciclids is Sodium Bicarbonates mainly because there's an active Sodium Volcano that makes a soda ash that taints most of the soil and waters of the Rift valley, making them highly alkaline.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

Goomie said:


> I feel like maybe this is a given considering the bag literally says it raises pH.


Right, and yet the 'giant thread on No Ferts.....' didn't speak to how to keep it around 7ish, at least. I missing information still! Unless Niko is proposing high pH is ok for plants. From everything I've read, this would not be good for plants. Maybe we need to know how well plants grow in 8-9 pH, before using Dolomite.


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

AWolf said:


> Right, and yet the 'giant thread on No Ferts.....' didn't speak to how to keep it around 7ish, at least. I missing information still! Unless Niko is proposing high pH is ok for plants. From everything I've read, this would not be good for plants. Maybe we need to know how well plants grow in 8-9 pH, before using Dolomite.


Like I think it was hoppy mentioned several things called dolomite. Knowing what product would be a good start to determining a regiment of use.


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## Goomie (Jul 21, 2015)

AWolf said:


> Right, and yet the 'giant thread on No Ferts.....' didn't speak to how to keep it around 7ish, at least. I missing information still! Unless Niko is proposing high pH is ok for plants. From everything I've read, this would not be good for plants. Maybe we need to know how well plants grow in 8-9 pH, before using Dolomite.


The only thing Niko ever mentioned as far as the product used was dietary grade powdered dolomite. 



thedood said:


> Like I think it was hoppy mentioned several things called dolomite. Knowing what product would be a good start to determining a regiment of use.


I agree with this. Maybe experimenting with some different types and grades of dolomite would help in figuring out this magical formula


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

GrampsGrunge said:


> Which means not dumping a full half cup of the stuff into a 20 gallon aquarium/container. I'm thinking less than 1/4 teaspoons per gallon of water or less range to slowly build to a target of 3~4 kH.
> .


All good. My mixture was in water, so it wasn't .5 cups of pellet. But point taken, I'll try 1/4 tsp per gallon. It was nice that it kept my typical 3-4 dKH, even with maybe 10 times the amount you propose.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

I see several problems with using powdered dolomite in the planted tank.

Contrary to popular belief, dolomite is not a simple molecule like many resources say i.e. CaMg(CO3)2. This would be considered ideal dolimite, and very rare at that. That's not what you get when you buy a bag of powdered dolomite. The ratios between Ca and Mg can vary considerably. Also, unless you find “purified” or something marked USPS most dolomite powders will contain other elements, most notably copper, zinc and lead. It can also contain a plethora of other elements and minerals. Those extras can be devastating to your aquarium. In short, you have no idea what you're putting into your tank.

Dolomite has a significant amount of carbonates. Carbonates will increase your PH. So unless you have rather acidic water this is another disadvantage to adding Dolomite. In addition to raising KH it will also raise GH which means you lose even more control over controlling the water parameters. 

Let's assume you want to ignore all of this. How much do you add? Actually, that's an impossible question to answer. Typically you won't know the exact Ca:Mg ratios despite many agricultural labeling. Never the less you can get in the ball park. Now we have to know how much will actually dissolve in water. Well, there is no solubility for Dolomite. There are so many reasons for this that many acedemic papers have been written on this subject alone. It's not a simple matter of calculating the solubility constant for element XYZ.

Here are a couple of acedemic papers if you happen to be a chemist (warning, these are way over my head lol)

Thermodynamic Modelling of Dolomite Behavior in Aqueous Media 

Kinetics and rate-limiting mechanisms of dolomite dissolution at various CO2 partial pressures 

So again, let's ignore all of the above. We assume we have whatever the ratio of Ca and Mg are on the label. Typically, Dolomite will be about 2:1 Ca to Mg. Great! Lets ignore the solubility issues, all the extra stuff in the powder and we could care less if we raise out KH and GH beyond what our fish want. Now we have a funky Ca to Mg ratio. Ideally plants want a 4:1 ratio of calcium to magnesium ratio. It's not a coincidence that Hoagland's solution has 200ppm of Ca and 48ppm of Mg.

I used to believe the theory that ratios are not important. Simply add enough of everything and you're golden! Well, that's not true. There's a lot going on at the cellular level that dictates what is taken up by the plant and what's not. Plants are not intelligent. They won't decide they have plenty of Zinc for example and stop eating it. Otherwise, there would be no such thing as toxicities in plants.

Imagine going to the pharmacy for your prescriptions. The pharmacist takes a scoop out of this bin, another scoop from that one, and several more. Dumps them all in a paper sack and tells you to just take a handful a day. No need to measure, you're getting more than you need anyway. Silly right?

There are many reasons to have nutrient ratios such as rate of uptake, percentage of use by plants, chemical reactions in the media, nutrient lock out etc. One of the easier to understand is the antagonism of two elements. Antagonism is the inhibition or interference with the action of one substance by another.

Imagine the sites where plants uptake nutrients as looking like a lock. Only keys (nutrients) that fit in that lock can be used by the plant. Well, calcium and magnesium are pretty similar. They both fit in the same locks. What would happen if we had 90% calcium and 10% magnesium? Magnesium uptake would be reduced because most of the locks would have calcium keys right? Reverse that. Too much magnesium, the opposite happens. Plants require nutrients at different levels. For example plants use more macro nutrients than micro nutrients. When we start ignoring those ratios the plant cannot get what they need. Ever wonder why there is potassium in GH booster when we only care about Ca and Mg? Well now you have a clue. :wink2:

Here is a very simple and short article about this, Nutrient Antagonism. Even I can understand this one. 

So we really don't know everything contained in Dolomite, we have no idea how to calculate a normal dose, there is no defined solubility, the Ca to Mg ratios are off. 

Sorry. I'll stick with GH boosters, which by the way I don't even need! lol


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

Goomie said:


> The only thing Niko ever mentioned as far as the product used was dietary grade powdered dolomite.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with this. Maybe experimenting with some different types and grades of dolomite would help in figuring out this magical formula


I've found an unused bottle of Cal-Mag supplement tablets "..derived from Dolomite." in text on the bottle among some old supplements and pharmaceuticals we're taking to the dump. I'm a little concerned about these as they say they're "fast dissolving" and have a gelatin coating, Magnesium Stearate, Silicon Dioxide, and red dye #4, as part of the list of ingredients. They're 1000 mg by weight, in large lozenges. 200 count.

Calcium Carbonate and magnesium carbonate seem to be the main ingredients.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

Using only what I have on hand, I could get to that 4:1 ratio by adding calcium nitrate to the mix. I'm not sure if they should be mixed together, (Dolomite to Dynamite!) but a dose of Dolomite and a dose of calcium nitrate would raise the Calcium levels closer to 4.1

When I mix Calcium Nitrate in water, it gets warm.

Epsom Salts would add 20% more Mg if I found a more pure source of Calcium that could be added to the dolomite.

Haifa Cal - Calcium Nitrate Fertilizer


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

AWolf said:


> Using only what I have on hand, I could get to that 4:1 ratio by adding calcium nitrate to the mix. I'm not sure if they should be mixed together, (Dolomite to Dynamite!) but a dose of Dolomite and a dose of calcium nitrate would raise the Calcium levels closer to 4.1
> 
> When I mix Calcium Nitrate in water, it gets warm.
> 
> Haifa Cal - Calcium Nitrate Fertilizer


I personally would not anything else. I thought your point to this experiment was to see if Dolomite was useful. If you add something else and have good or bad results which one do you blame? It would invalidate whatever results you get in my opinion.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

Zorfox said:


> I personally would not anything else. I thought your point to this experiment was to see if Dolomite was useful. If you add something else and have good or bad results which one do you blame? It would invalidate whatever results you get in my opinion.


Ah, but there seems to be an issue with the ratio of Ca to Mg. If you don't hit that 4:1 mark, you are wasting time and money. I've been reading, and have learned the plants need that ratio.

What about adding gypsum to the dolomite? CaSO4 + 2H2O? The gypsum has the calcium and sulfur plants need, and can be added directly to create that 4:1.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

At this point of my reading, adding a syringe full of a 4:1 Ca:Mg is the way to go. Using a dolomite substrate or dolomite liquid dose, while it is useful to raise pH while keeping KH 3-4, it will not feed the plants because it is 2:1. 
I think this is what Niko was getting around to saying, eventually, and he has a recipe for this 4:1 that he is waiting to whip out at the right moment.


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## theatermusic87 (Jun 22, 2014)

Just a quick question about ratios and their importance... we grow plants in our tanks from all over the world, soft water, hard water, nutrient rich and nutrient poor... Are we suggesting we should really start planning our plant selections same as we do with fish based on our water chemistry?

My question is more so how flexible plants are with regards to the "golden ratio" of ferts


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

theatermusic87 said:


> Just a quick question about ratios and their importance... we grow plants in our tanks from all over the world, soft water, hard water, nutrient rich and nutrient poor... Are we suggesting we should really start planning our plant selections same as we do with fish based on our water chemistry?
> 
> My question is more so how flexible plants are with regards to the "golden ratio" of ferts


I've said this before, but I don't think there is a 'golden ratio' for the very reasons you mention. Bio-load from fish alone has to play a role in how one feeds the plants in their tanks. 

Then there is the issues such as overstocking, overfeeding, water changes, frequency of water changes, and so the list goes on. And then there is lighting. Lighting with tanks with lots of rock are lit differently than one that is packed with stem plants, ect...

There is nothing wrong with having a basic set of guidelines, but really, this hobby is more complicated than that. Every tank is different and every tank needs to be fine-tuned for it's own needs.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

In considering the addition of Calcium Nitrate, (if it can be used safely with Dolomite) I am also helping to keep the pH down, while using a liquid dose.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

AWolf said:


> In considering the addition of Calcium Nitrate, (if it can be used safely with Dolomite) I am also helping to keep the pH down, while using a liquid dose.


I'd send you some of my water if I could. I swear if a person sneezes loud enough the pH drops. 

I added a small piece of wood to my little 5.5 gallon plant nursery tank. The pH before I put the wood in was around 7-ish. I checked it this morning and it was down to 6. 

I know adding wood to my tanks would make them look better, but I can't stand the pH nonsense, so I don't bother.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

Smooch said:


> I'd send you some of my water if I could. I swear if a person sneezes loud enough the pH drops.
> 
> I added a small piece of wood to my little 5.5 gallon plant nursery tank. The pH before I put the wood in was around 7-ish. I checked it this morning and it was down to 6.
> 
> I know adding wood to my tanks would make them look better, but I can't stand the pH nonsense, so I don't bother.


I start out at 5.8pH. So it's not that I don't feel your pain, but my water tends to rise as the weeks go by and stops around 7.0ish. But by adding dolomite, pH goes waaaay up. (by all accounts I've read). So the Calcium Nitrate might neutralize that effect of the dolomite. Or cause an explosion. :{ Such a fast rise of pH (again, by all accounts I've read), can't be a good thing. Just by dosing Calcium Nitrate I've lowered my pH from 7.6 or higher to 6.0. Nitrates lower pH. Because I don't use filters and only a coir substrate, my water behaves somewhat differently than other tanks. The filter is a nitrate factory, and I heard that pH tends to get lower over the weeks because of it. In theory at least. My no filter tanks hold a 0 nitrate reading most of the time. I know that the coir holds nitrifying bacteria, but maybe not as much as a regular filter. Anyway, just thinking out loud. 0


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## KC1994 (May 19, 2016)

You guys seem to be over thinking this baddd... I have never seen so much concern with ph. That chart that shows "all fish die at 4.2" is the dumbest thing I have ever seen. Apparently no one here as ever kept Wild discus or Altums ?? You should all relax, leave your ph alone, and remember that it's just some plants growing in water. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

KC1994 said:


> You guys seem to be over thinking this baddd... I have never seen so much concern with ph. That chart that shows "all fish die at 4.2" is the dumbest thing I have ever seen. Apparently no one here as ever kept Wild discus or Altums ?? You should all relax, leave your ph alone, and remember that it's just some plants growing in water.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm trying to figure out the recipe another poster 'eluded' to on another thread. We know he's using dolomite, but how is he mixing it to get to 4:1 ratio? By adding calcium in other forms, pH will shoot up fast enough to kill fish by my calculations. ...maybe...
For me this is fun. I was born to over engineer.


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## KC1994 (May 19, 2016)

So long as it is not 1.4 down in 24hrs it is not harmful, going up does not matter. Osmotic shock will do more than ph. In soft water with a low tds ph has less and less effect. Several studies about this. 

Several publishings related to ph and its effect up and down, but you have to search other places - dealing with South American cichlids. 

When it comes to water, even if he were to give you the exact answer to what he did there is no guarantee it will work in any other condition. Adjusting particular water parameters from different places is trial and error by the individual.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tapwater (Mar 31, 2016)

For me this is fun. I was born to over engineer.
LOL

Bump: For what it's worth, my geologist friend says:

Dolomite = calcium magnesium carbonate. Treat it like you would treat limestone in your tank. It can change both the pH and hardness of the water. I think I would avoid it.

Carbonates will react with acid and fizz. If you are sure a decorative rock is a carbonate, scratch it and put a few drops of hydrochloric acid on it. Carbonates will fizz. Dolomite less so that limestone.

Marble is a metamorphic limestone which has been recrystallized under heat and pressure. I think it is okay and not very reactive, unless powdered. Over a long period of time, marble can be affected by acidic conditions, but should not be a problem for your fish.


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## KC1994 (May 19, 2016)

tapwater said:


> For me this is fun. I was born to over engineer.
> 
> LOL
> 
> ...




Exactly. It just boosts kh, many other ways as well without the headache.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

AWolf said:


> Ah, but there seems to be an issue with the ratio of Ca to Mg. If you don't hit that 4:1 mark, you are wasting time and money. I've been reading, and have learned the plants need that ratio.


What a can of worms I just opened! There are ratios to consider when dealing with fertilizers. There's no question about this. If anyone has any doubts I'll poke around and find more than enough papers written on the subject for review.

That said, those ratios are generalized to use under most conditions. Different plants use different amounts of elements. Browse your local fertilizer aisle and you'll see citrus, palm tree, vegetable, orchid and a list of other fertilizers. A 2:1 ratio of Ca:Mg will work. It won't be as ideal as other ratios but it won't kill your plants. To cause real damage you will need to make huge errors here.

However, when we're looking for how much and what to dose shouldn't we want to come as close to ideal as possible? Even though your plants will still grow with sub par ratios they won't have the production rates of an ideal ratio. It seems obvious to me that we should try and get as close as possible when we are designing a fertilizer regime. Simply put there are far better options than using Dolomite. It's just that simple. Dolomite has a place in terrestrial gardens. In an aqueous environment? Not so much. 



theatermusic87 said:


> Just a quick question about ratios and their importance... we grow plants in our tanks from all over the world, soft water, hard water, nutrient rich and nutrient poor... Are we suggesting we should really start planning our plant selections same as we do with fish based on our water chemistry?
> 
> My question is more so how flexible plants are with regards to the "golden ratio" of ferts


You're absolutely correct. We don't need to worry about the ratios as much as I must have suggested. Hopefully, I made that clear now.



tapwater said:


> Dolomite = calcium magnesium carbonate. Treat it like you would treat limestone in your tank. It can change both the pH and hardness of the water. I think I would avoid it.
> 
> Carbonates will react with acid and fizz. If you are sure a decorative rock is a carbonate, scratch it and put a few drops of hydrochloric acid on it. Carbonates will fizz. Dolomite less so that limestone.
> 
> Marble is a metamorphic limestone which has been recrystallized under heat and pressure. I think it is okay and not very reactive, unless powdered. Over a long period of time, marble can be affected by acidic conditions, but should not be a problem for your fish.


All true. I agree.

The one thing I wanted to point out here is that you said to scratch the rock before applying the acid. That's important to understand. Many of the rocks/gravels we use contain carbonates. However, most of them are quite dense and not very porous. So the reaction with the water is greatly reduced meaning many can be used, including dolomite, without radical water chemistry changes. Crush them into a powder? That's a horse of a different color.


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

Here is a monkey wrench for you. I have been watching the How the Earth Was Made documentary series. The episode on the formation of the great lakes discusses dolomite (coincidence this topic comes up now?). The specifically test both dolomite and limestone to show the difference and the test was conducted with acid. Guess what, the dolomite DID NOT react to the acid at all.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

thedood said:


> Here is a monkey wrench for you. I have been watching the How the Earth Was Made documentary series. The episode on the formation of the great lakes discusses dolomite (coincidence this topic comes up now?). The specifically test both dolomite and limestone to show the difference and the test was conducted with acid. Guess what, the dolomite DID NOT react to the acid at all.


Weathered Dolostone won't react as noticeably as limestone. Dolostone is far more dense and less porous than limestone. This means the surface area the acid has to react with is much less in Dolostone. Scratch it well (or pulverize it) and it will. That's why we can use it as a substrate without radical water chemistry changes as opposed to limestone. 

In addition, Dolostone has alternating layers of magnesium and calcium. The magnesium layer can resist acids quite well.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

tapwater said:


> Dolomite = calcium magnesium carbonate. Treat it like you would treat limestone in your tank. It can change both the pH and hardness of the water. I think I would avoid it.


But Dolomite does not change the kH except to the better 3-4KH, and hold it steady. So that part is a good thing.

Bump:


KC1994 said:


> So long as it is not 1.4 down in 24hrs it is not harmful, going up does not matter. Osmotic shock will do more than ph. In soft water with a low tds ph has less and less effect. Several studies about this.


Thanks, I did not know that about pH and fish deaths. I thought a large change up or down was bad. But it does make more sense that up would not be as harmful. 

You know what this means? Dolomite is back on the table without a need to hold a pH! So....maybe adding gypsum to it for that 4:1? 

I'm not going to let it go! That ratio is more important to me because of everything I've read. I think it is a waste of ferts unless the plants can use it properly.


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## KC1994 (May 19, 2016)

AWolf said:


> But Dolomite does not change the kH except to the better 3-4KH, and hold it steady. So that part is a good thing.
> 
> Bump:
> Thanks, I did not know that about pH and fish deaths. I thought a large change up or down was bad. But it does make more sense that up would not be as harmful.
> ...



What exactly are you trying to achieve? I'm not being sarcastic here, but you do realize that 99% of plants we grow are not even aquatic, but grow in very acidic soils in bogs ect. Lots of the water will be a neutral ph or lower and a low Tds. If you kh is 2dkh or higher then you will have a stable ph, and I would advise against trying to raise it. I read something the other day that criticized Amano for selling "nature aquarium" but using plants from various ways (not natural). This shows that plants do not need particular conditions to thrive. Meet there needs for there growth and you will be fine, check out Tom Barr since his tanks are more relatable than Amano's. He uses several plants we deem hard to take care of and from several locations with great success. And he uses soft water, but he doses co2 and fertilizers in proper proportions. 

So again, I would not even worry about this any longer as it is unnecessary for a successful planted aquarium.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

KC1994 said:


> What exactly are you trying to achieve?
> 
> So again, I would not even worry about this any longer as it is unnecessary for a successful planted aquarium.


Niko suggests that he only fertilizes every few months. I would like to do that too. Niko suggests that using Dolomite is the bomb. I would like to know why. I like the more natural approach using Dolomite, instead of the alternatives to Ca/Mg that are molecules that break down into unused junk in the tank. If my tanks were successful, I would have told everyone my formula by now so we could all enjoy the hobby without the pain of sick plants with algae. 

I want what Niko claims he has. That simple. And it's also fun to do this. I love experimenting.


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## KC1994 (May 19, 2016)

AWolf said:


> Niko suggests that he only fertilizes every few months. I would like to do that too. Niko suggests that using Dolomite is the bomb. I would like to know why. I like the more natural approach using Dolomite, instead of the alternatives to Ca/Mg that are molecules that break down into unused junk in the tank. If my tanks were successful, I would have told everyone my formula by now so we could all enjoy the hobby without the pain of sick plants with algae.
> 
> I want what Niko claims he has. That simple. And it's also fun to do this. I love experimenting.




Don't quote me but I believe he used root tabs and from what I have see he has two or three Amazon swords. The dolomite "should" only buffer the water and give no supplementation to the plants. Some people have large sword plants and other low demand plants without knowing anything and not dosing, no co2, and so forth.

Unless he is getting the same effect with a high lit, high demand tank I wouldn't say that this dolomite is a replacement for anything.

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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

KC1994 said:


> Don't quote me but I believe he used root tabs and from what I have see he has two or three Amazon swords. The dolomite "should" only buffer the water and give no supplementation to the plants. Some people have large sword plants and other low demand plants without knowing anything and not dosing, no co2, and so forth.
> 
> Unless he is getting the same effect with a high lit, high demand tank I wouldn't say that this dolomite is a replacement for anything.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It would be nice to know what he is doing. But while I wait for his next episode of; 'No Fert....Healthy Plants', I am happy to kick this idea around.


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## KC1994 (May 19, 2016)

AWolf said:


> It would be nice to know what he is doing. But while I wait for his next episode of; 'No Fert....Healthy Plants', I am happy to kick this idea around.




I hear ya. Check out Discus tanks that only use pool filter sand but have healthy sword plants. I bet the PFS is what keeps them healthy, we should start using that for substrate. LOL LOL. When it comes to something like a sword plant you can't technically do anything wrong.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

I'd be more interested in Nikos root tab's considering that most of the commercial ones are comprised of largely Iron.
I have grown some fairly large sword plant's, and upon removing them when they took over a corner of the 80 gal tank I plopped them in ,the root mass was as large as a platter you might place the Thanks giving Turkey on.
He lost all credibility with ME when he claimed to grow these monster's in one inch of substrate with these magic root tab's and Dolomite.
Unless he was purposely starving the Discus he mentioned ,the food's offered to these six fish could be providing the needed phosphate along with a few other mineral's (check your fish food label), and the subsequent waste from the fish would provide a fair amount of Nitrogen.
Lot's of folk's claim they dose nothing but if they are feeding their fish,then they are fertilizing in a round about way whether they are aware of it or not.
Tapwater also contain's mineral's like magnesium/calcium in many cities that plant's can utilize as well. 
Would not be so willing to place all my egg's in one basket so readily but I can understand the desire to expieriment.
Might do it in a plant only tank rather than subject my fishes/shrimp's to the expieriment's
just sayin.


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## KC1994 (May 19, 2016)

I agree, fish food and waste is plenty to grow something simply like a sword plant. Especially with low light. Less demand for nutrients. 


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

AWolf said:


> It would be nice to know what he is doing. But while I wait for his next episode of; 'No Fert....Healthy Plants', I am happy to kick this idea around.


I see where your'e going with all this now. You do realize there is more to this hobby than high tech tanks. Low tech tanks typically have substrates that have nutrient sources, usually plain old soil capped with something. They grow plants quite well. They have been around far longer than high tech tanks. A good book for this type of setup is Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, by Diana Walstad.

Niko is not doing anything special. His claims, in my opinion, are very over stated. I've read a lot of his posts in the past. Typically, he likes to disagree with the way anyone else manages planted aquariums yet never suggests alternative methods that have not already been done. Many people try to reinvent the wheel and call it their own. It's happened so many times in this hobby it's comical. Here's a post he made explaining what his substrate is. Nothing special.



niko said:


> Sand, root tabs, Laterite, Activated Carbon, and some Peat. Zero issues from day 1. Going on 6 years now. Never, not once, a single kind of algae. Of course the substrate nutrients have depleted a long time ago. But they are enough to take the tank through a few months of undisturbed development. Which is what a properly established planted tank is.


Do you see anything that hasn't been done before? Adding Dolomite as a supplement? Try googling that and search for posts over a decade old. Trust me you'll find plenty.

Best advise I can give you is to learn the basics. Read about low tech setups that people have done for years. There is so much information out there regarding this and guess what? Most of them explain exactly how they did it! No need to try and decipher something that, in all honesty, probably is exaggerated and is nothing special to begin with.

Anyone that tells you that it's impossible to have healthy plants without tons of fertilizers, high lights and CO2 has no idea what they're doing. On the flip side. If someone tells you they can grow plants 100 times faster than a high tech setup and uses no fertilizer, CO2 or special lighting? Well...you fill in the blank.:wink2:


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Zorfox said:


> I see where your'e going with all this now. You do realize there is more to this hobby than high tech tanks. Low tech tanks typically have substrates that have nutrient sources, usually plain old soil capped with something. They grow plants quite well.:


Some of us low tech people cringe at the idea of using dirt because it's messy. :wink2: There are plenty of substrates around to use in low tech tanks that plants do well in. I use 3 in one tank, 4 in another. 

If somebody wants to experiment, it isn't hurting anybody. However, I do agree with your thoughts about people trying to reinvent the wheel and even more so on your point about how people that have success with low tech tanks are happy to share what they do and how they got there. 

I haven't been to the other thread as I don't care. There is nothing educational about it and there are plenty of people that are willing to teach those that are willing to learn. Their attitude is much better as well, but I'll leave that alone.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

Smooch said:


> Some of us low tech people cringe at the idea of using dirt because it's messy. :wink2: There are plenty of substrates around to use in low tech tanks that plants do well in. I use 3 in one tank, 4 in another.
> 
> If somebody wants to experiment, it isn't hurting anybody. However, I do agree with your thoughts about people trying to reinvent the wheel and even more so on your point about how people that have success with low tech tanks are happy to share what they do and how they got there.
> 
> I haven't been to the other thread as I don't care. There is nothing educational about it and there are plenty of people that are willing to teach those that are willing to learn. Their attitude is much better as well, but I'll leave that alone.


I certainly didn't mean soil was the only substrate. To the contrary! There have been a lot of different substrates used. Simply that high tech setups are not the only way to have healthy plants. That's just not true. 

Too many people come into the hobby and think that high tech is the best method to use. Sadly, when many questions are asked, they usually end up hearing about dry fertilizers and CO2. In reality, more experienced users need to remember to first ask what the person wants and expects out of their new hobby. Not everyone cares about rapid growth. I personally love high tech tanks but they do have drawbacks. I'm still deciding the route I want to take with a 240 I have. That's an awful lot of work to maintain a high tech that large.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Zorfox said:


> I certainly didn't mean soil was the only substrate. To the contrary! There have been a lot of different substrates used. Simply that high tech setups are not the only way to have healthy plants. That's just not true.
> 
> Too many people come into the hobby and think that high tech is the best method to use. Sadly, when many questions are asked, they usually end up hearing about dry fertilizers and CO2. In reality, more experienced users need to remember to first ask what the person wants and expects out of their new hobby. Not everyone cares about rapid growth. I personally love high tech tanks but they do have drawbacks. I'm still deciding the route I want to take with a 240 I have. That's an awful lot of work to maintain a high tech that large.


I was teasing which is why I added the wink in there. I wasn't kidding about my being anal and refusing to use dirt though. LOL

That is a lot of tank to handle regardless of which way you go with it. Good luck! I see a 29 gallon upgrade coming at some point, it won't be big though. I love 40 gallon breeders and want one, but like yourself, I want time to figure out what I want to do with it.


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## theatermusic87 (Jun 22, 2014)

While were on the subject of dolomite for "dosing" ca and mg anyone know of a rock or substance besides traditional ferts that is high in potassium or iron that will dissolve in water (even if it is slowly)((actually slowly would be preferable to instantly)) I'm envisioning a pvc pipe full of rock with a small pump to cycle water through it to dissolve what ever needed minerals are available, kind of like a calcium reactor (at least as I understand it) for saltwater, but with a more varied variety of minerals

I'd also be curious if the were some organic "something" that would decompose with a similar result


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

theatermusic87 said:


> While were on the subject of dolomite for "dosing" ca and mg anyone know of a rock or substance besides traditional ferts that is high in potassium or iron that will dissolve in water (even if it is slowly)((actually slowly would be preferable to instantly)) I'm envisioning a pvc pipe full of rock with a small pump to cycle water through it to dissolve what ever needed minerals are available, kind of like a calcium reactor (at least as I understand it) for saltwater, but with a more varied variety of minerals
> 
> I'd also be curious if the were some organic "something" that would decompose with a similar result


Rocks that survive long enough to be cycled through the various geological changes the earth goes through would almost have to be very resistant to water. Limestone and dolomite are able to survive mostly below ground, and both also get modified to granite type rocks. Salts are another natural "rock" that does what you want, but that's what we now dose, even though most are somewhat man-made. And, some are various ores.

The most common aquarium "organic something" that decomposes to provide nutrients is fish food. Maybe we should feed our fish kale?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

@Hoppy cant find your post but earlier somewhere you mentioned Barr did a tank using dolomite. I was curious, so I googled around some. Here's one. 

350 Gallon aquarium redo

Not much info on the dolomite, other than it being used for sub.


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

I hate to say this but, I really think Niko is yanking chains, There is no magic ratio. Dick and Carla Booth did this back in 1992 with just CaCO3 and Epsom Salts. The .pdf he linked to in the other thread is a huge ADA advert and makes the same sort of claims with little substantial support.

Like I said, I'm out, let him string someone else along. Frankly I smell a salesman.


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## theatermusic87 (Jun 22, 2014)

Hoppy said:


> Rocks that survive long enough to be cycled through the various geological changes the earth goes through would almost have to be very resistant to water. Limestone and dolomite are able to survive mostly below ground, and both also get modified to granite type rocks. Salts are another natural "rock" that does what you want, but that's what we now dose, even though most are somewhat man-made. And, some are various ores.
> 
> The most common aquarium "organic something" that decomposes to provide nutrients is fish food. Maybe we should feed our fish kale?


hahaha on the kale, I was thinking more specifically to get potassium, maybe bananas? lol, but as far as the salts i'll have to look into that as an option down the road


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

BTW The Krib has some of the Booth's articles. Here is a good basic introduction to Water Chemistry, carbonates and their relationship with CO2..Aquatic Concepts


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