# Stocking Help 180 Gallon (Updated)



## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

So, after quite a few years and a large move and various power outages, I've giving up on fixing my tank back to how it was as a reef not long ago. The tank has therefore been turned into a planted freshwater tank.

It's 6ft x 2 ft x 2ft, with a sump, 2 inches of river sand underneath and inch of river pebbles and 8 x 80 t5 lights. I'm using fertilizer tabs instead of a already fertilized substrate due to cost.

At the moment, I just added a few plants, and a couple driftwood peices, as well as 10 Harlequin Barbs. 

I really need some stocking advice, though, as it differs so much from the marine stocking I'm used to.

I really really really want some Kribensis cichilids, as they have been a favorite of mine for a while. But the opinions on these are so conflicting. And while I've read though a lot of posts asking if they're suitable community fish, usually the tank is a fair bit smaller and thus I thought that would be reflected in the answers I've read. In my tank, would their aggression be more mild due to space?

I also would love blue and gold rams, though I know they prefer lower pH and higher temps, so that depends on what other fish I get. These also a ground dwelling, and may conflict with the Kribs, but I thought there should be enough space.

I would also like, perhaps, some Discus, a small group as a centre peice.

Other then that, I'm lost in terms of what tetras, barbs, killifish, loaches, rainbow fish and whatever else to get?

What are some better schoolers and what would be the best numbers in my size tank? 

Sorry for such a long question, and thanks for any help! Cheers:smile:


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## Siggav (Jun 29, 2009)

If you want Discus which you certainly can with your tank, go and read lots of info about keeping them. Keeping Discus is a bit specialised compared to keeping most other freshwater fish so if Discus is your end goal it makes sense to set everything up with them in mind.

Discus are higher temperature fish, like the German Blue Rams. The somewhat higher temperature required limits what plants you can have as well. If you've been happy keeping a reef I'm sure you'll manage a planted Discus tank esp at that size tank but do read up.

Main problem with kribs if I remember correctly is just that they breed like crazy and get aggressive when breeding.

As for schooling fish, I have penguin tetras and really enjoy them, they are fairly rowdy for a tetra though but do school tightly quite often (also split up and bicker amongst each other when feeling safe). 

If I had your tank I'd do a south american themed tank with a group of angelfish, cories on the bottom, a smaller pleco and a shoal of tetras big enough not to get eaten by full grown angelfish. It's a fairly "standard" set up but it's standard for a reason and none of the fish are particularly hard to care for or tricky to deal with.


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Thank you for the input  - I have no shortage of reading to do hahaha It's a bit overwhelming, going to Google the name of each fish as I come across it. If I did a higher temperature tank, with rams and discus or other fish with the same temp, pH and hardness requirements, what kind of loaches would suit, as I know cories would be out? 

With the Kribs, I was hoping that even if they did spawn they would keep to a pot in the corner and maybe just defend their area but not attack other fish? I'm unsure. I love these little guys, but don't want a random bloodbath. 

Also, does the softer water do much for plants? I may be getting confused with the pH/Kh relationship for CO2, but do plants usually prefer harder water?

I saw some Penguin tetras today, they were fairly cute. I also liked the longfin Serpae Tetras, Widow tetras and a few others. But I live in a rural area, local stuff is scarce. 

I admit, I'm not a huge fan of Angelfish, though they are regal looking when fully matured. I would also worry about their aggression and getting their fins nipped


Am going to read some more on discus now. My tank sits at about 27 regardless, and I'd be ok with the waterchanges and maintenance, but keeping the water soft could be an issue


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Ohkay.. So this is a little list I thought MIGHT work. I've mainly been looking to suit temperature so required pH and hardness might differ. I plant to keep the pH at maybe 6.8, the temp around 28C and the water fairly soft.. I hope haha

I don't have a clue on numbers yet? I couldn't find anywhere if Rams and Kribs prefer to be introduced in small groups or what, but I'm thinking of including the following

A school of Diamond Tetras
A school of either Cardinal or Conchus Blue Tetras
Khuli Loaches
Clown Loaches
Emerald Catfish
Sterbai Cordoras 
Otocinclus
Albino Corydoras
German Blue Rams
Gold Rams
Kribensis
Discus (lassttt - centre peice also) I think they;re worth the maintenance and different tank conditions even if it takes months to years before I am comfortable that everything is stable enough.

I fear there are too many bottom dwelling fish, and I also worry about the agression of the rams with the cories. If the cories wont work, then I could use Dwarf Loaches (sidthimunki) as they also tolerate the warmer water up to 30C

So what numbers would you do for these fish? What are the larger clashes? Also, with the Kribs agression, I hoped the emerald catfishes larger size might also help.

Opinions? Feel free to say it's stupid if it really is an impractical list.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Rather than a group of small fish, I like larger. Have you considered going with a cichlid tank? A large tank deserves large fish so they will be the center attraction rather than lost. If you have hard alkaline water, it cries out for African cichlids. They come in hundreds of different types so don't let the talk of problems deter you. This is meant to be a learning experience! A male only tank does not have breeding problems!


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Thanks for that idea!  I had considered a cichilid tank. There are some absolutely gorgeous ones. But I really wanted to go planted, it's just so pretty and serene. So most of my favorite cichilids tear up plants. I was hoping discus would be enough of a large center piece for the tank. I'm not sure, but I kind of prefer the mixed community with smaller, intricate details and subtleties to look at for hours, rather than larger fish, despite how beautiful those fish can be. 

Also, my parents and brother have predator/cichilid tanks also, so I grew up with them, and am looking for something refreshing. Still.. I can't ignore the little Kribs and Rams, as they're still cichilids I suppose.

Do you have an opinion on the list I posted? In terms of incompatibility or over/under stocking?


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## MikeS (Apr 27, 2008)

Instead of several schools of small fish, have you thought of a large school of them. Yes, with plenty of other tankmates. I have a 210 and am pondering the same thing. One large school could act as that center piece. Throw in a couple of larger fish (none that would eat them) and they should stay schooled and will look awesome moving through the tank. I just bought 32 balloon lamp eye tetras and love the tight schooling look. There is a video of them in both my journal and right here in the fish forum. Our tanks have the same foot print, mine is just a tad taller. Doesn't look like that many fish. So either I am going to add a second school of rummynose, or add more to this school. 

I have kept kribs in a community planted tank before, and only during mating were the aggressive. Luckily they chose a spot in one of the corners of the tank to have their young. If you do, make sure you give lots of hiding spots.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Perchance said:


> So, after quite a few years and a large move and various power outages, I've giving up on fixing my tank back to how it was as a reef not long ago. The tank has therefore been turned into a planted freshwater tank.
> 
> It's 6ft x 2 ft x 2ft, with a sump, 2 inches of river sand underneath and inch of river pebbles and 8 x 80 t5 lights. I'm using fertilizer tabs instead of a already fertilized substrate due to cost.
> 
> ...


Would keep fishes that enjoyed the GH,KH,pH of water I could most easily re-produce(ie) tapwater.
Domestic dDscus would be fine in wider range of water but may only breed in soft water with low TDS (total dissolved solid's).


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Perchance said:


> So, after quite a few years and a large move and various power outages, I've giving up on fixing my tank back to how it was as a reef not long ago. The tank has therefore been turned into a planted freshwater tank.
> 
> It's 6ft x 2 ft x 2ft, with a sump, 2 inches of river sand underneath and inch of river pebbles and 8 x 80 t5 lights. I'm using fertilizer tabs instead of a already fertilized substrate due to cost.
> 
> ...


Would keep fishes that enjoyed the GH,KH,pH of water I could most easily re-produce(ie) tapwater.
Domestic Discus would be fine in wider range of water, but may only breed in soft water with low TDS (total dissolved solid's).


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

Here is a stocking calculator for you. Many people here stock much heavier than this but it is a decent starting point.
http://www.aqadvisor.com/AqAdvisor.php?AqVolUnit=gUS&AqTempUnit=F&AqLengthUnit=inch

I prefer my fish to occupy different niches. One bottom feeder - Corydoras sp. One large schooler. One small algae eater. One small schooler and so on. 

Choose one for each area of the tank and buy lots of them. A dozen Corydoras but choose one species rather than an assortment. 50 torpedo shaped tetras of one species and 30 deep bodied tetras of another. If you decide you want a large fish species then plan so you can accommodate a good number of them. I find the so called clean up crew to be more interesting to watch than the display fish and do not begrudge smaller display fish numbers because platies, otos and plecos are in the tank. 

I haven't had kribs before but dwarf flag cichlids, Laetacara curviceps, were super good parents and not aggressive at all when brooding. They redirected attention away from the babies if a fish looked their way. Pretty neat I thought. 

My 180 gallon tank with 20 additional gallons in the sump is understocked with ~12 corydoras, ~12 otocinclus, ~20 platies, ~15 Congo Tetras, ~40 Black Neon Tetras and 2 Bristlenose Plecos. I may end up buying more corydoras, otos and Congo Tetras and would love to find Peacock Gudgeons sometime.


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

MikeS said:


> Instead of several schools of small fish, have you thought of a large school of them. Yes, with plenty of other tankmates. I have a 210 and am pondering the same thing. One large school could act as that center piece. Throw in a couple of larger fish (none that would eat them) and they should stay schooled and will look awesome moving through the tank. I just bought 32 balloon lamp eye tetras and love the tight schooling look. There is a video of them in both my journal and right here in the fish forum. Our tanks have the same foot print, mine is just a tad taller. Doesn't look like that many fish. So either I am going to add a second school of rummynose, or add more to this school.
> 
> I have kept kribs in a community planted tank before, and only during mating were the aggressive. Luckily they chose a spot in one of the corners of the tank to have their young. If you do, make sure you give lots of hiding spots.



I thought a large school of diamond tetras would be nice.. But I'm not sure what constitutes a 'large' enough number hahah 24? 35? I had looked at the balloon lamp eye tetras after seeing your posts, but they seem to require the lower temperature waters. 

What are some higher temperature tetras which school really well?

I'll go have a look at your video now, thanks! 

Good to know the Kribs were ok in your tank, would it be safer to just have one? Or would that just be sad for the fish?


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Kathyy said:


> Here is a stocking calculator for you. Many people here stock much heavier than this but it is a decent starting point.
> http://www.aqadvisor.com/AqAdvisor.php?AqVolUnit=gUS&AqTempUnit=F&AqLengthUnit=inch
> 
> I prefer my fish to occupy different niches. One bottom feeder - Corydoras sp. One large schooler. One small algae eater. One small schooler and so on.
> ...



Thanks! Going and putting in what I am considering it;s around 75%. That's not bad considering I plan on this being done over the long, long, long run. Though it does say the Kribs are too aggressive with my other selected fish on that site. 

Thanks for that - I've talked to a few people at LFS and such, and it seems more to come down to the individual fish? I just hoped the extra space for make mild the aggression, even through breeding. I'm hopeful. How would the Kribs go with the Rams, do you think? Okay as lond as I break up their line of site and such?

Congo tetras are sweet, but prefer lower temps, sadly. Same with the black neons, I think.. I liked those also. Do your Corydoras school in those numbers?


And @ Roadmaster, that can vary, as my house uses bore, well, rain and town water in various places... So the type of water I can use also can change... But I will have to test each and see if what I want... soft, slightly acidic water, is possible. Thanks! I think 5 - 10 dH and still pH 6.8 or so.


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Also, and sorry for the multiple posts in a row, what is a good replacement for the clown loach? They're gorgeous little things but grow too big, and add a lot of load on the Aq Advisor, so are they a bad option?


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Sorry to be so repetative but what are people's actually thoughts on this list.. Keeping in mind it will be slow to build to this and the Kribs will be monitored, and have a place to be moved to if they do get too aggressive.

[SIZE=-1]14 Harlequin Rosb[SIZE=-1]oras
[SIZE=-1]20 or mo[SIZE=-1]re[/SIZE] Lemon Tetras (I've heard these are good schoolers and although they're fairly plain, a lar[SIZE=-1]ge school [SIZE=-1]of non-f[SIZE=-1]in nippers would be nice.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
[/SIZE]4 Golden Rams
[SIZE=-1]4 [SIZE=-1]German Blue Rams (or plain Blue rams, not fuse[SIZE=-1]d[SIZE=-1])
[SIZE=-1]2 Kribensis Cichilids
[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]10 Emerald Catfish
[SIZE=-1]8 Sterbai [SIZE=-1]Corydoras (would [SIZE=-1]get a large[SIZE=-1]r group but they[SIZE=-1]'re expensive around here)
[SIZE=-1]6 Otos[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]5 [SIZE=-1]K[SIZE=-1]huli Loaches
[SIZE=-1]5/6 [SIZE=-1]Discus

[SIZE=-1]Would that be too many bottom d[SIZE=-1]wellers though? I know [SIZE=-1]people say, choose a vari[SIZE=-1]ety that occup[SIZE=-1]y different regions[SIZE=-1]. I also hoped the shape of the tetras [SIZE=-1]would contrast, and their [SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]occupation[/SIZE] of lower/middle [SIZE=-1]to higher/middle [SIZE=-1]levels of the tank. Then with the eventual Discus, would that be enough fish in the higher section of the t[SIZE=-1]a[SIZE=-1]nk?

[SIZE=-1]How o[SIZE=-1]ften [SIZE=-1]do Ram venture upwards?

[SIZE=-1]Cheers and thanks for the help so far.[/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE] 


Also, on the AqAdvisor this puts my stocking at 71% but I can't imagine adding much more than that



[/SIZE]


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## Siggav (Jun 29, 2009)

That sounds fine. I think. I'd be tempted to bump up the numbers of the rasporas. I have 12 penguin tetras as the main school in my 54 gallon tank and that fits well enough but I think 14 schooling fish in a 180 isn't that much and they're always happier and prettier in bigger groups.

I'd also probably stock really slowly, start off with the hardier fish and get the hang of plants and the tank before adding the more delicate rams and discus.

I used to have sterbai cories, they're pretty much my favourite cory. Started out with 6 but they spawned and I raised the fry so I had a few extra later on.

As for the lower/middle/upper sections of the tank, the fish will do just what they want. If you have plants that reach the surface the fish will feel safer to venture higher up more often, but even then individual fish will sometimes decide to not swim much in the level they're "supposed" to be in. Like I had a gourami that usually stayed in the lower to middle level of the tank for some reason.

Also do read up on discus and discus in planted tanks, lots. I think there were some nice threads in this forum on the topic. You need to make sure that everything you do in terms of other fish etc. is geared towards the discus for when they go in.


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Awesome...Yeah I could up the number of the Harlequins, I didn't want to overstock but I think it'll be ok.

Yeah I still have a lot of reading to do on Discus..They and the Rams will be the final additions once I'm really comfortable will all the other fish and plants being healthy. I have a spare 3 foot tank I was hoping would be alright for a Discus QT also.

You have some experience with Rams, if I introduce four, will they pair and fight? Or kind of school, with a pair and two that tag along?

I really love the Sterbai cories, they're cute and interesting, though I've rarely seen them locally.. Probably have to order online. 

That'd be great. I plan on it being fairly heavily planted. I'm reading the thread Beginners Guide to Discus currently haha. Thanks again! 



Edit: I MAY already be reconsidering discus.. They might be more of a I'll aim for them and try to get everything perfect, but if it's not going perfectly I'll probably stay clear.


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

I'm still unsure which would be better, a large shoal of Diamond Tetras or Lemon Tetras..

Which are less likely to nip or annoy other fish, and which look better in your opinions?


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## Siggav (Jun 29, 2009)

Id go with lemon tetras over diamond tetras, the splash of red over their eye is really pretty with all the green of the plants and from what Ive searched around lemon tetras are supposed to be pretty peaceful.

And yeah.. discus while gorgeous are a handful to keep, I think you're doing the right thing in gearing your tank towards them but waiting before actually getting them. A beautiful and healthy planted tank with dwarf cichilids, tetras and cories is plenty to look at already and can be a total gem without any fish beyond that.


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## tomfromstlouis (Apr 2, 2012)

I do not have much experience with most of the fish on your list, but my initial response is to consider larger groups of fewer species. I have a school of 44 rummynose tetras and they have changed my definition of what constitutes a "school". In a tank this size I would consider anything under 12-15 individuals an experiment which you later fix by buying more or taking them out. A real school in this tank would have 20-25 individuals IMO. Exception: the discus or other large center piece fish.

So in your case I would get more of or eliminate the loaches, cats, otos, rasboras. The kribs and rams are not schoolers and are special cases, but again I would consider just one or two of the three you list.

Why? This may be personal preference, but I find the overall scene more peaceful with fewer species. The view is less of a jumble and more of a coherent environment. Watch any underwater video short of a coral reef and you will see what I mean.

How's this list?
15-20 sterbai cats
25 lemon tetras
12-15 otos
15-20 harlequins
6 discus (same color)
one or two pair kribs/rams


Just my thoughts and probably worth what you paid for them....


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

tomfromstlouis said:


> I do not have much experience with most of the fish on your list, but my initial response is to consider larger groups of fewer species. I have a school of 44 rummynose tetras and they have changed my definition of what constitutes a "school". In a tank this size I would consider anything under 12-15 individuals an experiment which you later fix by buying more or taking them out. A real school in this tank would have 20-25 individuals IMO. Exception: the discus or other large center piece fish.
> 
> So in your case I would get more of or eliminate the loaches, cats, otos, rasboras. The kribs and rams are not schoolers and are special cases, but again I would consider just one or two of the three you list.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I'm definitely considering narrowing my choices down and going with fewer species but larger and more simple/cohesive groups... I suppose the choices are also overwhelming. I was planning on at least 20 Lemon tetras, and the biggest school.. But could always add more if, once in the tank, it doesn't look like enough. 

I was thinking the Harlequins would be a smaller, but still large school... maybe 20 of these, then 30 Lemons? is that too much?

I didn't realize Otos actually schooled? 

I do like the idea of choosing just one catfish... But at the same time i love the different look of the Emeralds. Dilema haha


But I see what you're getting at and will have to think about what I really want long term.

Thank you very much, your ideas are really appreciated and helpful


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Siggav said:


> Id go with lemon tetras over diamond tetras, the splash of red over their eye is really pretty with all the green of the plants and from what Ive searched around lemon tetras are supposed to be pretty peaceful.
> 
> And yeah.. discus while gorgeous are a handful to keep, I think you're doing the right thing in gearing your tank towards them but waiting before actually getting them. A beautiful and healthy planted tank with dwarf cichilids, tetras and cories is plenty to look at already and can be a total gem without any fish beyond that.



Yeah and I think I;ve read Lemons are better schoolers and less nippy or other fish. And they stay smaller, which I like. 

While talking to my LFS they tried to convince me that the Kribs and Rams would outright eat the Rosboras? Is that correct at all?

Certainly, I still hope to get discus, but I feel like placing them, in a newbie planted tank, is a rather tight line. Especially with their low tolerance of nitrate and such, which is usually higher in planted tanks. So I'll just see how it goes!  Thanks again


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## manzpants92 (Dec 6, 2012)

With my experience with discus i quickly realized that i started to care so much for them that i sacrificed a lot of my existing tank. I eventually cleared out all my denisonii barbs angels and clown loaches just so they could get a decent amount of food. 

Obviously the planted tank is something everyone wants to achieve but after raising discus to be adults i can say that if i were to do it again theres no doubt that i would skip all the hassle and just go barebottom until they are adults. I had a fairly good amount of plants and soon saw the hassle everyone on simplydiscus was talking about that ignored. It'll save you so much work its not even funny! Not trying to discourage you from giving them an awesome planted home but it is without doubt a whole lot easier. Of course this depends on the size of the discus you want to get


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Yeah, I think at this point I'd rather the planted tank and community, as opposed to the discus. That is, if I HAD to pick. I am hoping I'll be able to maintain a small group when the tank's mature. 

I like a variety of fish too much to do solely a species specific tank, I think.

But thanks for the input, it's nice to hear from someone how has first had experience with discus. When you did keep them, did you even have them in a planted tank? Did it get too difficult to keep the water as clean as it is needed to be.

Also, the natural pH of my rain water is about 7.2. I would like it lower, but it would be more stable here... Do you think that would be suitable?


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## Siggav (Jun 29, 2009)

Some rasporas are tiny and kribs and rams will eat them. Harlequin rasporas get close to 2" when fully grown so I think they would be safe. I've had neons without a problem with rams. It can depend on the individual fish I guess. Cichlids are fun like that.


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Siggav said:


> Some rasporas are tiny and kribs and rams will eat them. Harlequin rasporas get close to 2" when fully grown so I think they would be safe. I've had neons without a problem with rams. It can depend on the individual fish I guess. Cichlids are fun like that.



Heh, well.. I can rehome them, if they do get too hard to handle. I added 4 more Harlequins Rosboras, but they developed white spot straight away. So, I've raised the temperature to 29/30C, but had already lost one and another one died later, despite not having any visible spots. 2 of the other look particularly bad, but the other 10 are healthy looking. They were all from the same pet shop, so I don't know if it was the newer 4 that all got ill or what.... I plan to do a large water change tomorrow and am adding garlic to their food. Would a 50% water change be alright?

I'm reluctant to medicate or even ass aquarium salt to the tank after reading so many conflicting opinions. Sigh. Hopefully the plants can cope with the higher temp momentarily.

*Should of quarantined and will do so in the future. (Stupid, but I just thought Freshwater fish wouldn't really require it so much. Especially being the ONLY new fish in the tank)*

Anyways I checked our your journals and I really adore your tank, the Penguin tetras are sweet as and the scape is sensational. I love love love that driftwood piece. Am looking for some like that myself. Are they available online at all? Local is fairly scarce.


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## MikeS (Apr 27, 2008)

lol, this is funny cause I still am in the same boat, just different fish. I dropped 32 balloon lamp eyes in my tank and thought I got shorted fish lol. I still am debating whether or not to get more and/or some rummynose. Going to have to wait and see what 9 grown roselines make the tank look like. I would pick the main fish you want to school and add to them until you "feel" like it is big enough.


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## Siggav (Jun 29, 2009)

Thanks for checking out my tank journals! I bought the driftwood online through a UK based seller (where I live). It's redmoor root, and the seller had pictures of the individual pieces so you could buy a specific one rather than just saying "I want a large one". It would be really expensive to ship to australia I'd imagine and probably completely unecessary. I'm sure there's some australia based sellers that do a similar thing.


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

No prolem, I really do love your tank, though! The Rams are gorgeous and I love the layering of plants - so natural but still organized and just lovely. And the Nano is just too cute, I love love love shrimp. And both your tanks are so cleeeaaan!

Hahaha yeah, I found an Aussie guy on Ebay, selling some kind of Golden Vine pieces, some don't look too bad. I could try asking what my LSF can order in, but it would probably mostly by the Malaysian log type stuff.

What's Golden vine like? the postage is reasonable and atm all I have is three tiny peices, which was all my LSF had.


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## ADJAquariums (Jul 5, 2012)

Sorry for being a bit late on this but if discus don't work out for whatever reason there's always Angelfish that I find to be a nice alternative


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

That's fine, thanks for the input! I could go with Angels, though I've never been entirely that fond of them... I also think because I love love love the golden and blue rams, the higher temp they want goes well with the Discus.



However I'm having a problem at the moment. A few of the Harlequins appear unable to keep themselves upright... While the group chills that turn upside down in the water, and then they correct themselves and swim across the tank. Is this a symptom of whitespot or have I another issue to consider?

It's really disappointing, as I have no clue how to help them. One of them seemed to give up and was floating arround the tank, I netted him and confined him but he doens't look well. I was about to do a water change, should I still do this? Or will it add more stress?

Could the raised temp (30 degrees Celsius) be the cause of this behavior?

*Edit*: The worst one just died =/ Not a happy welcome back to freshwater fish keeping.


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## msawdey (Apr 6, 2009)

LOVE my angels... such an interactive fish.. I say angels over discus if you have had problems running a reef tank. Angels are much hardier than discus... Also... look into bolivian rams.. They color nicely and tend to stay at the bottom part of the tank...


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Yeah, I've heard they can be quite friendly..I'm not sure about them nipping, and I also think online pictures don't do them justice. I'll have to think about it. I like the Bolcvian Rams but prefer the Blue and Golden varieties, and would rather more middle swimmers to avoid the Krib's aggression. I'll have to think about the angels though, thank you! 

Any chance you have any clue what's killing my Rosboras, though? Is this a symptom of whitespot or a new infection/problem?


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## msawdey (Apr 6, 2009)

Perchance said:


> Yeah, I've heard they can be quite friendly..I'm not sure about them nipping, and I also think online pictures don't do them justice. I'll have to think about it. I like the Bolcvian Rams but prefer the Blue and Golden varieties, and would rather more middle swimmers to avoid the Krib's aggression. I'll have to think about the angels though, thank you!
> 
> Any chance you have any clue what's killing my Rosboras, though? Is this a symptom of whitespot or a new infection/problem?


My angels only harass each other. In a 180, you could easily have 3 known pairs or even start out with about 12 young ones and let them pair off. Nothing better than seeing angels pair, its amazing. 

It sounds like you could have 1 of 2 problems with the rasboras. 1. its the whitespot bacterial infection, in which case i would remove them immeadiately. 2. they are having a tough time adjusting to the tank. Being rasporas, you will probably lose the other 2 just because of stress of there being only 2

In my opinion, once you go rams, you never go back to kribs. I had too many issues with them going after other fish (much more so than any angel i have ever had). If you can get angels young, they will do just find in that tank. Im really jealous and want a tank that size


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Yeah I really am starting to like the idea of angels.. More active than discus too. I put my details and replaced the Discus with Angels and AqAdvisor said I would have to upgrade to a large tank eventually if I put 6 Angels in. As in, the site thought 6 would grow to large for my tank?

How accurate is that?


I had 14, am down to 9 now.. They still school together though one still looks a bit off.. 

*When you say white spot bacterial infection do you mean a bacterial infection around the gashes left by the parasite? I can't see any surface mold, fungus and growths on any of them... That's why I was concerned it was the water doing something to them.*


Thanks for the input - I'm really being persuaded towards angels. And then I can keep the temp closer to 28... Should that be okay with the Rams still? I know other species would appreciate the lowered temp


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Anyone? I'm doing a water change at the moment... about 80gallons is all I can manage


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## tomfromstlouis (Apr 2, 2012)

I cannot advise you on your sickness issue, but I can endorse the angel idea. I have ALWAYS had angelfish and do not tire of them in any way. If you get a group of juveniles and watch them spar and pair off, you will have plenty of harmless violence to entertain you. 

Like so many domesticated species, there are now lots of varieties to choose from. I am partial to wilds and wild crosses, but my only advice (consistent with my earlier suggestions) is to get all of one type for a more uniform look. They do tend to hang around together a bit. You could easily keep up to a dozen angels in a 180, depending on other stocking.

Otos do not school in my experience, but their task in a 180 is a large one. I have read that they do like to be in groups though, and this seems to be the case with most species when you think aobut it. That is the glory of a larger tank; you get to keep fish in more natural groupings that they themselves prefer.

Back to the deaths: larger communities of any kind regularly deal with death. Nobody likes it, but it is a part of what we are doing with these tanks, so do the best you can, learn, but do not let it cause excessive sadness.


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## msawdey (Apr 6, 2009)

Perchance said:


> Yeah I really am starting to like the idea of angels.. More active than discus too. I put my details and replaced the Discus with Angels and AqAdvisor said I would have to upgrade to a large tank eventually if I put 6 Angels in. As in, the site thought 6 would grow to large for my tank?
> 
> How accurate is that?
> 
> ...


For stocking, it fully depends on what age you get the fish. If they are young, around quarter to half dollar size, you could easily put up to 20 in a 180. Personally, I wouldnt. Full grown I would say 3-4 pairs would be perfect for that tank depending on how much plant growth you have. I would say if you go the young route, start out with 10-12 angels. 

As far as the issue with the schoolers, I am not sure what is going on. I think if you have more loss though, you really need to consider taking them out. possibly getting a UV light if you dont have one hooked up to filtration may help with future issues, but I would probably dose the tank with a general antibiotic after removing some of your bioballs from your filters (they can last a few days (3) in tank water set aside) while you are dosing with antibiotic. After you dose, do a large water change again and replace bioballs


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

tomfromstlouis said:


> I cannot advise you on your sickness issue, but I can endorse the angel idea. I have ALWAYS had angelfish and do not tire of them in any way. If you get a group of juveniles and watch them spar and pair off, you will have plenty of harmless violence to entertain you.
> 
> Like so many domesticated species, there are now lots of varieties to choose from. I am partial to wilds and wild crosses, but my only advice (consistent with my earlier suggestions) is to get all of one type for a more uniform look. They do tend to hang around together a bit. You could easily keep up to a dozen angels in a 180, depending on other stocking.
> 
> ...


Thanks, guess the loss is just overwhelming as I also lost my dog today. She was gorgeous. 

I was about to say that the remaining 8 Rosboras have been fine for the last 24 hours, but a couple are darting and once barely moves. Idk/ See what happens I suppose. I don't want to dose the tank and am hoping the heat will be enough to kick it. Is it often enough?

Yeah I would like a large group of Otos. Depends on their price, really.. Online is cheaper, but I get staff discount at the LSF and have a certain loyalty there, of course.

I probably will go with Angels, at this point... The temp lowered, even minutely, should be appreciated by the plants and widen the rage of tetras I can get. Thank you!


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

msawdey said:


> For stocking, it fully depends on what age you get the fish. If they are young, around quarter to half dollar size, you could easily put up to 20 in a 180. Personally, I wouldnt. Full grown I would say 3-4 pairs would be perfect for that tank depending on how much plant growth you have. I would say if you go the young route, start out with 10-12 angels.
> 
> As far as the issue with the schoolers, I am not sure what is going on. I think if you have more loss though, you really need to consider taking them out. possibly getting a UV light if you dont have one hooked up to filtration may help with future issues, but I would probably dose the tank with a general antibiotic after removing some of your bioballs from your filters (they can last a few days (3) in tank water set aside) while you are dosing with antibiotic. After you dose, do a large water change again and replace bioballs




I have one I can put on.. It just kept malfunctioning last time and shocking the water (what the hell, I know). But an electrician nor the Pet Shop could find out why it was doing it, as it wasn't doing it when plugged in in town.. I might have thrown it, actually. Blah. 

Yeah I was thinking 6 angels, maybe 8. The ones available to me are normally small...no bigger than an inch or so. 

Just curious, why did AqAdvisor say they would grow out of the tank, when I put 6 in my list and took out the discus?


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## LyzzaRyzz (Nov 6, 2012)

Reading through your thread, don't really have any advice, except that I'm very sorry you lost your dog. I recently lost my beagle, of thirteen years, to cancer. It can be tough. 
Good luck to your tank, I'm subscribed, can't wait to see what you do with it!!


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

LyzzaRyzz said:


> Reading through your thread, don't really have any advice, except that I'm very sorry you lost your dog. I recently lost my beagle, of thirteen years, to cancer. It can be tough.
> Good luck to your tank, I'm subscribed, can't wait to see what you do with it!!


Thanks, we got her when she was oldish already, and then had her for six years. Just a sweetheart, really.

I might post some pictures of the tank despite me not bothering to really clean up around it lately.. Also there's a big giant powerhead covered with a sponge in the corner... not attractive haha But marine style powerheads are generally a little too powerful for planted tanks. The plants are all really kind of.. mixed and the scape isn't fantastic by any means. But I'm making small progress. Got two branched pieces (one large, one small) and a medium log of driftwood today for $20 for all three. I was happy with that 


Pictures, even bad ones, are probably incentive for comments and advice, no?


Thanks for subscribing, also!


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Some pictures of the shoddy plants and dwindling number of gorgeous little Rosboras.


Edit: Air curtain for extra O2 in warmer temp for the whitespot.
ALso kind of like the look of it atm (don't shoot me)


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## LyzzaRyzz (Nov 6, 2012)

Wow, I think it looks great! Your plants all look so healthy! Love the blue light!
Yeah, salt water equipment doesn't usually work as well in freshwater..whatever works for you though! Maybe you could sell it off and buy freshwater? Or trade? I know this forum has some salt water people!


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Yeah that's the smallest powerhead I own hahaha I also have two larger 20,000 L per hour ones I had to take out, of course. They're proper wavemakers with controllers so I could sell them for quite a bit. 


Thanks! I didn't think anyone would like it. The blue is mainly because two 'daylight' bulbs failed recently. Had to order new ones online... Bought 2 Powerchrome Midday and Powerchrome AquaFlora... Hope they work well. They will arrive tomorrow, or at least the day after.

Notice there isn't really a foreground at this point... What would you guys recommend? I really like glossostigma, and can actually get it in my area.

Also, thanks for saying they look healthy! Though a few aren't all that happy. The Aponogeton Crispus in the center has melted a bit. 

The really tall Anubias is new, also, wanted to put it on the peice of driftwood but because of that, the tallest leave touch the top of the water. Is that a problem?


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Gah, I'm not sure if I have a weird fungus or bacteria in my tank. One of the Rsboras had a white dot on it's lip. Could it just be white spot in an odd place, or should I look into mouth fungus type infections?

I don't know what to do. I have a tank I can set up for quarantine, but I can't for the life of me even catch them. 

Should I start medicating the tank? The water being at 30C for the last 4 days hasn't done anything, I don't think. New spots appeared today.

Edit: I emailed Aquasonic (Australian brand for most aquatic supplies which I can actually get locally) to ask if their products are plant safe. And I photographed the fish with the white bump on his lip. I will upload these and some extra photos tonight


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Some photos; you can see the melting on the leaves of one of the plants... And two bottom photos show two of the Rosboras, one with the spot on it's mouth and one with an injury on it's side. Not sure what it is, it's difficult to photograph


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Bah, I lost another Rosbora. Down to 6 out of the 14 now.. I feel like there has to be something other than the whitespot but can see no real evidence of it. Maybe a bacteria going through the tank...

I really need some advice on what to do.. Should I dose for bacteria, or will that be impossible in this tank? I CAN take them out, just have no clue how to catch them. I can see heaps of people looking at this thread, someone chime in and help, maybe?


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## manzpants92 (Dec 6, 2012)

In my opinion a water change is only going to help. It may cause stress to your fish but if there is something that's wrong with your water, a change is only going to take out some of the bad. Good luck!


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## LyzzaRyzz (Nov 6, 2012)

Taking them out is going to take time, and a lot of water removal. 
When I need to catch certain fish, or just one species of fish, I turn the filters off, drain water half way, [i use many buckets! Mines a fifty gallon!] and I use two nets. I remove everything from one third of the tank, an my boyfriend scares that fish, or as many fish as he can toward my side of the tank. From there it's just out faking the fish to the side of the tank, and scooping him up before he darts around the net!

I'm not goin to give any advice about the medication, or the ich, since I've had little experience and knowledge about either one. But I know that while catching the fish will be a stressor, medicating a big tank is next to bank account draining. Medicating a smaller tank is not so bad.


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Yeah, shall do. I'm down to four Rosboras now. Still not sure what to do in terms of medicating or what


The tank is at 31degrees C, haven't added salt or anything as the signs of white spot seemed to disappear. How can one tell if there is a strain of bacteria just killing everything? What should I be looking for? I thought bacteria showed symptoms such as cloudy eyes and such. 

But yeah I will do a water change. Probably 50% 

Thank you for your input


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

LyzzaRyzz said:


> Taking them out is going to take time, and a lot of water removal.
> When I need to catch certain fish, or just one species of fish, I turn the filters off, drain water half way, [i use many buckets! Mines a fifty gallon!] and I use two nets. I remove everything from one third of the tank, an my boyfriend scares that fish, or as many fish as he can toward my side of the tank. From there it's just out faking the fish to the side of the tank, and scooping him up before he darts around the net!
> 
> I'm not goin to give any advice about the medication, or the ich, since I've had little experience and knowledge about either one. But I know that while catching the fish will be a stressor, medicating a big tank is next to bank account draining. Medicating a smaller tank is not so bad.



Thanks for those ideas! They're so freaking quick, too. Hahah Yeah, I'd probably incorporate that into a 50% water change, as I just siphon water down the drain nearby.

But even if I was able to catch them, and place them in a tank for quarantine... Where I'd probably have issues with ammonia, I wouldn't even know what to dose with.. It was ich to begin with, but now I'm not sure.


Ichonex is a farily cheap product, and people have used it with success. I emailed the company and it is plant safe, and dosing my large tank (although a pain in the butt and wallet) should be ok. I'd also worry about what's left in the tank when I finally return these fish or add new ones...

I have no clue how long bad strains of bacteria or fungus can survive without a host, though I know white spot (not sure about other parasites) die within a couple of days.


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

So I did a 50% water change... Closer to 60% at about 100 gallons. While the water was low I struggles and finally triumphed in catching the remaining 4 Rosboras. They are now residing in a 15 gallon tank on my desk which has just a little internal filter with media from the big tank, a heater and a light. I've dosed it with Aqua Master White Spot Remedy which contains both formaldehyde and malachite green I believe. 

It's an Aussie brand so I couldn't find much info on it.. But no other produts other than Melafix and Primafix were available (small rural area), and so I figured this would have to do. It also FORCED me to get them out of the main tank. WHich is good, cause a couple of the plants are dying with the 31C water

Did I do the right thing? Also I can't find an air stone small enough for the tank, so the filter is just disturbing the top of the water, is this enough oxygenation?


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## manzpants92 (Dec 6, 2012)

If your fish have something you wanna get them as much aeration as possible. I've noticed that sometimes if my water level isn't all the way to the top so the water has to fall farther from the filter it'll create more air bubbles, so while not having an extra air stone this might be an idea. 

As for taking out your fish and saving your plants you did make the right call. From having discus I quickly realized its always, always, a lot easier to treat in a small quarantine tank rather than your large display tank. That way you can do large water changes with only having to do 5-10 gallons instead of for your case 100 gallons for a 50%. 

Id up the water changes in your hospital tank to maybe 50% a day and add 1TBSP of salt per 5 gallons and turn the temp up to about 88 and see if they do any better


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Thanks for reassuring me of that. It's certainly easier to monitor them and I think it'll make future problems easier. I'll try to add an airstone if I can find one, or go buy one. At the moment, the filter is just sitting really high to make some turbulence 

I also added salt before checking responses here, good to know it wasn't a bad decision!  Thanks.

Will be doing 50% water changes in the QT daily, it's like.. only one of my larger buckets ahahah so so so so much easier 

I'm now fairly certain it's a bacterial infection going through the tank... Bah. One has dropsy. The fungus on the mouth, and the various wounds/markings on the fish and well as the discoloration all seems to fit this. 

Will the salt help? Or should I do several water changes and then treat with a broad spectrum antibacterial medicine? Also, if it is a bacterial infection, when will the main tank be suitable to return the fish to?


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## manzpants92 (Dec 6, 2012)

Salt may help depending on the case. Discus are a super shy fish so sometimes when i would turn the light on they would dart and run into my driftwood and scrape against it so they would get cuts, if i ever saw that i would add salt. Salt helps heal wounds, promotes slime coat(not sure if that will help for you but discus rely heavily on theirs), and also helps reduce stress. So if anything salt will only help. Salt and high temps will cure ich but if your positive its bacterial i would use a med.

If its bacterial then use a med and a lot of times on the bottle it'll say like "treat for ten days with 25% water changes"...then if they look good after however the medication specifies then your probably good to toss them back in


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Yeah, I'll grab a medicine tomorrow. Wont get a chance today as I have to go to the vets. 


The one with dropsy died (obviously) but the three remaining seem fine. 

When I emailed a company asking if one of their products was plant safe, they told me that plants may be harboring the bacteria and should be disposed of? IS that true? Have you heard anything like this before?

Also, I checked out your profile and your discus are absolutely gorgeous! Just stunning


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## manzpants92 (Dec 6, 2012)

Why thank you  

uhmm to be honest i couldn't help you with that i'm not really sure if that's possible. I would think that the fish would be the ones carrying the disease but i guess its possible that your plants could? i would start a thread and ask around on that one


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

I haven't read anywhere that it is possible.. ANd chances are it was more of a opportunistic bacteria which wont harm healthy fish... The stress of the move and the white spot made them viable to infection, I think. I've done a lot (way too muchhh) and I think my main tank should actually be fine. I can't dose it with an anti-bacterial medicine anyways, so I might just have to see it I have any problems in the future. 


On a more happy note; I found one of my harlequins in the sump hahaha so we're back up to 4 survivors in the hospital tank, which I've been testing and doing water changes on. They seem happy. Eating well, no scratching, no fungus, no dropsy and no abrasions. Problems passed?? I hope hahaha 


Also, I was at the LFS today, and saw some really really gorgeous phantom tetras.. The blue on them is amazing and these ones a fairly big.. Seem healthy. Didn't buy any, obviously, but I looked them up when I got home and they are apparently fin nippers... Not as bad as skirts and serpae or whichever, but still nippy... *What do you think they would be like in a larger tank with a larger group?*

I'm worried because I'm thinking I'd really love some Angels as the center point fish, and they're a fin nippers delight, really.


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Anyone got an opinion on the phantoms? They are such cuties.

Also. Lost another Harlequin. I literally jinxed myself. Far out =/ . Yesterday I had done a large water change 70% approx and started treating for the bacterial infection which I'm 100% sure it is.About three hours ago I fed them... Then checked on them about an hour ago again and one had some dark red splotches.. Looked it up, added some salt to replace what I'd forgotten to replace last water change, but it died about 20 minutes later.. 

Super quick change from perfectly fine and eating to unable to swim straight. Sigh. They're in the QT still, so I guess it doens't matter... I apparently will be able to stock the main tank, as it shouldn't be really harboring anything malicious.


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## LB79 (Nov 18, 2011)

GET THEM!!!!!!!! Phantoms are spectacular fish. They don't really school, just sort of shoal, and the males are constantly sparring/displaying. SO cool! And in big groups, they don't touch anyone else. Big as in 20+.


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## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

I have not had the time to read through everything and I am not sure if you have finally decided on a path to take for stocking. I did however want to say that a 180gal Rainbowfish tank would be awesome. there are about 50+ species of rainbowfish. The more popular ones include M.bosmani, M.Praecox,M.Herbertaxelrodi. Tons of colors and variations, they are very active fish, hardy and extremely fun to watch when the lights go on as they start the breeding frenzy lol

here is a good read by one of the experts in rainbowfish. There are quite a few species that are not available in the U.S due to Australian export laws, but there are a pretty good group of people here that are keeping some pure genetic strains of many of the rainbows that are just plain amazing fish!


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

I haven't finalized the list.. having problems with a bacterial infection in my harlequin rosboras. 
That's actually a really interesting idea... I'll read up on them for sure.

Any chance they're compatible with rams and kribs? If the tank is at 26Celcius, and the pH sits around 7.6 woudl they coexist? Or would aggression be a problem? Thanks for the input!

Edit: Also, I live in Australia so there should be some available.. Though I've never actually seen any in pet stores.


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## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

That temp range seems to fall right into the range of most species of Rainbows. I had my herbertaxelrodi (yellow rainbows) and some M. Praecox (dwarf neon) in with a breeding pair of apisto's and they did just fine. Most rainbows spend time in the mid to upper region of the tank, Apsto, Ram and Cribs tend to stay near the bottom of the tank. 7.6ph is also in the range of most rainbows. many of the species of rainbow being kept are in river systems where seasonal water changes affect PH and hardness, so they are pretty adaptable. I did not see where you were from when I posted from my phone. I am jealous lol. 

Here is a link to a website setup by THE expert in Ausi and Papua new guinea rainbows. 
Take a look and see whats available. Ohh... and then there is Sanj's rainbow tank, simply stunning here is a link to his tank on youtube. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZpw8jEcktk&feature=plcp

This one has some great coloring with the rainbows in a feeding frenzy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhXc8mAOzz0


and here is the species website.
http://rainbowfish.angfaqld.org.au/Melano.htm

if you had not been able to figure it out... I am obsessed with these little guys lol




Perchance said:


> I haven't finalized the list.. having problems with a bacterial infection in my harlequin rosboras.
> That's actually a really interesting idea... I'll read up on them for sure.
> 
> Any chance they're compatible with rams and kribs? If the tank is at 26Celcius, and the pH sits around 7.6 woudl they coexist? Or would aggression be a problem? Thanks for the input!
> ...


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Holy cow there are so many species... It's insannneee. How am I supposed to choose a favorite? Or even several I could consider including.

Thanks for those vids! WIll check them out when YOutube comes back up working.. Keeps flickering and shutting down my browser. Weird. 


If you could get any from Australia which would you choose?


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## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

Perchance said:


> Holy cow there are so many species... It's insannneee. How am I supposed to choose a favorite? Or even several I could consider including.
> 
> Thanks for those vids! WIll check them out when YOutube comes back up working.. Keeps flickering and shutting down my browser. Weird.
> 
> ...


I Really, Really, Really want M.Gracilis, its one of the species no longer available in the U.S. due to export laws from Australia. I would love some of the larger rainbows as well. G.Wanamensis, M.lacustris, M.parkinsoni are just a few I would LOVE to have. I would certainly add Bosmani to the list too. Unfortunately the above species get to large for my soon to be running 40B rainbow tank, but they would look pretty impressive in your 180.


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Hmm ok well looking around I can get some air freighted from Cairns at the top of Australia for $28 and around $5 per fish.. They're collected from billabongs, swamps and rivers around there and bred in large ponds.

That's fairly cheap, isn't it? They seem absolutely lovely.. And big enough to hold their own...

I found I love the ones from Cato River, the Melanotaenia trifasciata. I also love the Marry River ones (FAVORITE), Melanotaenia splendida inornata, and Drysdale River ones Melanotaenia australis, the Desert Rainbow Fish which is a Northern Territory variety; Melanotaenia splendida tatei, the original brood for these were collected in a bog pool on the side of a highway hahaha.

Then I also love the Bosemani variety, the Lake Kutubu Rainbow (M.Lacustris) that you suggested! And some other red variety I saw.. I've spent WAY TOO long looking at these hahaha

What do you think of the species I listed? How many could go in a 180? The threadfins are also adorable, and apparently school really well.. But I don't think they could hold the aggression from the rams/kribs.

You might not be able to find any nice images of the ones I'm talking about also, as the coloring here apparently differs greatly and the images on google seem inaccurate. I'll message you with a link to one of the sites I'm using to look at these gorgeous fishies aahaha


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## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

Perchance said:


> Hmm ok well looking around I can get some air freighted from Cairns at the top of Australia for $28 and around $5 per fish.. They're collected from billabongs, swamps and rivers around there and bred in large ponds.
> 
> That's fairly cheap, isn't it? They seem absolutely lovely.. And big enough to hold their own...
> 
> ...


*Melanotaenia trifasciata*. I think either location color variant are great! I agree with you the Marry river ones are some of the nicer ones. I bet if you look hard enough you will find someone around you that breeds them. If you get a chance, you might like the variant that comes from Rocky Bottom Creek, very intense reds and blues.

*Melanotaenia splendida inornata* These are the big guys in the video. Great fish, These are also among one of the most hybridized of the rainbows. I am not too worried about your source since the site goes into great detail to describe the capture locations. There are a few minor color variants of these too. The ones from south alligator River are some of my favorite, displaying a bit more green in the fins. 

*Melanotaenia australis* Another great choice, I see these sometimes in a few of our LFS's.

*Melanotaenia splendida tatei*, this is a sub species of the splendida. For some reason there are a TON of these guys from different locations just different enough to classify them individually. If you go to keep two separate sub species of this fish make sure you can tell them apart. (especially the females) 

All of the Melanotaenia species can hybridize with each other. While it is fairly rare in a closed aquarium environment it is something to keep an eye on. If you wish to breed any of them do so in a separate tank with a known male and female pair. Many of the females look similar to each other with very subtle differences in color and shape. It is frowned upon to knowingly put hybrids out there, so if you do have hybrids let anyone know that they are so.

*Threadfin* These guys are my favorite small rainbows. They are shy, and cautious and might not do well with the larger bows. not because of aggression on the larger bows part. They move slower in the water, and have VERY tiny mouths, so they might get out competed for food. There little mating dance is stunning to see! The body turns steel blue, and the fins a mixture of red, pink, and yellow! great little guys. 

These little guys are very addictive. I have only kept a few species, but my list of "must keep someday" is VERY long lol. 

One thing to keep in your mind if these are a choice. Male only tanks are done, the only problem is the fish color. They are TONS more colorful if females are present. For roughly 15 min. after lights come on in the tank they do the mating dance with a female. They will flash a stripe along the top of there head on and off, and flare with the colors of the fish becoming VERY intense. Males sparing usually is harmless, they circle around each other while flaring their fins. Great to watch. They are a slow growing fish as well. So the ones you get from Aquagreen might not be as colorful as they appear in the pictures right off the bat. Usually they start getting colors as they near sexual maturity. The high backs in the males come with age as well, there are pictures out there of very old rainbows that are almost circular lol. I usually keep a male/female ratio of 1:1 some recommend 1:2. 

In the link I posted earlier, there is another link for the E-book PDF, Adrian Tapin did a great job on it, and it is my go to resource for rainbows. There are several photos from different collection points per fish, so you can see what color forms are out there. 

Also check out Rainbow-fish.org and rainbowfish.info they are dedicated rainbow forums and a great source of info.


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Noahma said:


> *Melanotaenia trifasciata*. I think either location color variant are great! I agree with you the Marry river ones are some of the nicer ones. I bet if you look hard enough you will find someone around you that breeds them. If you get a chance, you might like the variant that comes from Rocky Bottom Creek, very intense reds and blues.
> 
> *Melanotaenia splendida inornata* These are the big guys in the video. Great fish, These are also among one of the most hybridized of the rainbows. I am not too worried about your source since the site goes into great detail to describe the capture locations. There are a few minor color variants of these too. The ones from south alligator River are some of my favorite, displaying a bit more green in the fins.
> 
> ...



Thanks again for all the info and help, it's fantastic! 


I am worried about hybridization, I wouldn't want that to occur. It's difficult finding photos of females which are for certain the species I'm looking at and not a misrepresentation or already a hybrid...

I decided that I'd go with the Mary River over the Desert sub species of the Spledidas, just to make it easier on me.. They seems too similar. 

I'm thinking the Boesemanis (depspite being overdone) would look great with the Mary River M. splendida inornata. The yellow with the blue/green I think would look nice if I had 6 of each? Or is that not enough or each variety? 

Yeah I was thinking they'd be practically white at 4cm big, but that's ok... More time for me to adore them as they grow  And even then, I'm pessimistic about them looking as great as the photos ;P Just a guide image, I suppose

I was planning on a 1:1 ratio, but on a few of the factsheets of AquaGreen he mentions maybe keeping 2 males to one female to keep their colors nice, would that cause undue stress, though?

I really like the Kutubu's you suggested (M.Lacustris), but read they can get nippy when older? I know you've been unable to keep them yet but you seem to know so much anyways, so is this true at all?

If I did the Boesemanis and the Mary Rivers, I think the Western M.Australis would add a nice touch or red. 

I've seen the "Salmon Red Rainbows" and the shape of them isn't fantastic always, what do you think of these? They're bright, sure.. But I'm not sure I like them.

So sorry to absolutely BOMBARD you with questions, but you clearly love these fish and now that I have the image in my head I don't think I'll let it go ahaha


EDIT: With the threadfins, in a densely planted tank, would they feel more at ease? Or if they matured with the other rainbows, maybe? I don't want to put them in if they wont be happy.. But they are adorable and a nice group could be really sweet in my tank


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

I think I'm going to go with, to begin with so I don't shock the tank:

6 x Cato River M. splendida inorata
6 x Mary river M. trifasciata 
12 x Threadfins

Is it stupid to think that an large addition of plants at this point will help stop an ammonia spike?


Then later on in increments 

6 x Drysdale River M. Australis 
6 x Boesemanis
4 x Neon Blue M. Praecox (dwarf neons? I think are also a common name? They're only 2 inches)

Would that be too overstocked? The sizes of most are 7cm (>3inches), and 10cm (4 inches) for most, but less than 2 inches for the threadfins... 

Bascially 24 medium rainbows in a 180 gallon? Also filtration is a sump and Aqua One 2700... Still too heavy on stocking, do you think?


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## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

Perchance said:


> Thanks again for all the info and help, it's fantastic!
> 
> 
> I am worried about hybridization, I wouldn't want that to occur. It's difficult finding photos of females which are for certain the species I'm looking at and not a misrepresentation or already a hybrid...
> ...





Perchance said:


> I think I'm going to go with, to begin with so I don't shock the tank:
> 
> 6 x Cato River M. splendida inorata
> 6 x Mary river M. trifasciata
> ...


I would really not worry about hybridization if the tank has more than a few rainbows in it, chances are they will eat the eggs. 

Most females are silvery with a hint of the male colors IE. the herbertaxelrodi has a slight yellow color to the females ect.

I have not had a chance to keep the Lacustrus so I have no idea of the behavior as they age. Check out the forums I posted a few posts ago, they might be able to shed some light on this.

Bosmani are ALWAYS a good choice lol they are great looking fish!

The salmon red rainbows are pretty neat, they are not a Melanotania species, and have a slightly different look than the Melonotania species do. 

All rainbows will feel right at home in a densely planted tank. the threadfins are very shy around other rainbows, so you will need to make sure you get food down to them, they do not compete well with more hyper species. 

Plants will certainly help with the cycle. I would wait until the tank is completely cycled before adding any fish. You can also help the cycle along by putting a cocktail shrimp in the tank near the filter inlet, which will help the cycle speed up. The addition of plants, and the cocktail shrimp you might be able to half the cycle, but make sure Nitrites and Ammonia are not registering on a liquid test kit before you stock the tank with anything. 

As for the stocking level, I am not going to be much help here with such a large tank and stocking it to capacity. I tend to run my tanks with heavy stocking and 50% water changes each week due to the stock level and the EI fertilizing. 

I do not mind the questions, so ask away


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Yeah the tank's cycle finished a bit over two weeks ago... Been sitting on 0 ammonia, nitrite and nitrate for longer that that but I only added some harlequins around 2 weeks ago.. 

Then I had the bacterial infection in them and they're in a hospital tank.. Despite medicating and even the water in the hospital tank not registering any ammonia, nitrite or nitrate, I keep loosing them.. They wont be going back in my display anyway. I'm too paranoid about spreading it. 

I've kept 'feeding' the bacteria in the tank with (probably too much) fish food and just letting it give off some ammonia. The the display should be sweet and ready 

What I meant with the plants was, if I'm adding a large number of fish, would the addition of plants at the same time help stop and ammonia spike?

Thanks! I've been in contact with Aquagreen, and also been on the Rainbowfish.info forum and the site you posted which has some great articles and awesome info of each species! 

I guess I'll start of with a couple of groups - see if I want bigger groups or extra species and just feel it out haha

What are you usual quarantine processes? Is it stupid to think that stock from Aquagreen wouldn't need quarantining because he would quarantine his brood stock and then all the fish wouldn't be exposed to any other outside influences? 

I have tanks and 'cycled media' but what do you think? If I do QT them how long do you suggest? I've read 30 days, but if I treat with a preventative, broad spectrum anti-bacterial or parasitical medicine should I just follow their instructions. or do you think this kind of medicating is useless?

Thanks again! You'll probably regret mentioning rainbows eventually hahaha


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## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

Perchance said:


> Yeah the tank's cycle finished a bit over two weeks ago... Been sitting on 0 ammonia, nitrite and nitrate for longer that that but I only added some harlequins around 2 weeks ago..
> 
> Then I had the bacterial infection in them and they're in a hospital tank.. Despite medicating and even the water in the hospital tank not registering any ammonia, nitrite or nitrate, I keep loosing them.. They wont be going back in my display anyway. I'm too paranoid about spreading it.
> 
> ...


I will never regret mentioning these fish lol they are my absolute favorite group of fish. 

I usually cycle for a month no matter where they come from. I keep a close eye on them to if any problems crop up during that time and medicate accordingly. Yea, plants will certainly help with a small ammonia spike.


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Hahah, they are pretty sweet fish. And being natives makes them awesome.. It's good to support native Australian aquaculture too


'Cycle', did you mean quarantine for a month?. I guess I'll quarantine.. I was hoping it wouldn't be necessary. I mean, if a group all in quarantine together, and a problems arises, chances of it spreading are high.. If they go straight into the display which is currently empty, and they all get sick.. I'd catch them straight away and move them to a sick tank... Is that just being lazy? I mean.. There aren't any fish in the display for new fish to give a disease to. Unless I'm treating for internal parasites that I can't see just as a preventative measure, then isn't quarantining them not really doing anything..? 

I don't know. For the first group of fish to go in the tank, from a reputable source, isn't quarantine redundant? Whereas for future fish or ones from an unreliable source should probably be quarantines anyways?

Sorry again  Just trying to see the logic behind it all


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

If the fish are sick then you would have to treat the entire tank and possibly damage the biological filter and plants or catch them to place in a hospital tank and probably damage the plants. 

If the fish had something really bad and anything they were in has to be sterilized you would lose all your plants and possibly want to replace your substrate and filter media as well.

Find something to use as a quarantine tank!


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## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

Perchance said:


> Hahah, they are pretty sweet fish. And being natives makes them awesome.. It's good to support native Australian aquaculture too
> 
> 
> 'Cycle', did you mean quarantine for a month?. I guess I'll quarantine.. I was hoping it wouldn't be necessary. I mean, if a group all in quarantine together, and a problems arises, chances of it spreading are high.. If they go straight into the display which is currently empty, and they all get sick.. I'd catch them straight away and move them to a sick tank... Is that just being lazy? I mean.. There aren't any fish in the display for new fish to give a disease to. Unless I'm treating for internal parasites that I can't see just as a preventative measure, then isn't quarantining them not really doing anything..?
> ...





Kathyy said:


> If the fish are sick then you would have to treat the entire tank and possibly damage the biological filter and plants or catch them to place in a hospital tank and probably damage the plants.
> 
> If the fish had something really bad and anything they were in has to be sterilized you would lose all your plants and possibly want to replace your substrate and filter media as well.
> 
> Find something to use as a quarantine tank!


Yea lol I meant Quarantine. It is much cheaper to medicate a 10 gal. tank than a 180g tank. There are several bacterial infections that can happen that are EXTREMELY hard to treat to the point people just tear down the tank and start from scratch. Quarantining fish is one way to avoid such bacteria. and if it does crop up, sterilizing a 10g is cheaper and quicker than a 180g. 

Some fish will shed the virus/bacteria into the water column, so even if you pull the initially sick fish out of the tank, you will still have to do a treatment on the entire 180.

The Q-tank does not have to be elaborate, a simple bare bottom 10g with a cheap light fixture and filter.


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Kathyy said:


> If the fish are sick then you would have to treat the entire tank and possibly damage the biological filter and plants or catch them to place in a hospital tank and probably damage the plants.
> 
> If the fish had something really bad and anything they were in has to be sterilized you would lose all your plants and possibly want to replace your substrate and filter media as well.
> 
> Find something to use as a quarantine tank!




I've said I have multiple tanks available and cycled media ready. I was asking about the logic behind quarantining fish when they're from a reliable source - a breeder. 
I understand the problems associated with the dreaded mycobacterium and other PITA bacteria which can survive ridiculous conditions, and how people have had to tear down their tanks. But that wasn't what I was wondering about.


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Noahma said:


> Yea lol I meant Quarantine. It is much cheaper to medicate a 10 gal. tank than a 180g tank. There are several bacterial infections that can happen that are EXTREMELY hard to treat to the point people just tear down the tank and start from scratch. Quarantining fish is one way to avoid such bacteria. and if it does crop up, sterilizing a 10g is cheaper and quicker than a 180g.
> 
> Some fish will shed the virus/bacteria into the water column, so even if you pull the initially sick fish out of the tank, you will still have to do a treatment on the entire 180.
> 
> The Q-tank does not have to be elaborate, a simple bare bottom 10g with a cheap light fixture and filter.


Haha I thought so  Yeah no doubt. I've got a 2ft QT up and running atm, I'm just 'feeding' it to keep it running. Yeah I did a bi of reading on the Rainbow fish sites and found a lot about this kind of thing. 

I have a 15allon set up, and 30 gallon available, another about 25 gallons or so, and then a 4 ft tank also spare.. How many fish would you comfortably quarantine at one time in the 15 gallon? I like using this one as it's so easy to do water changes and it's so simple to dose, but I don't want to overstock it and thus induce problems with the fish due to bad quality water in the QT.

Thanks again! Much appreciate the opinions


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## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

Perchance said:


> Haha I thought so  Yeah no doubt. I've got a 2ft QT up and running atm, I'm just 'feeding' it to keep it running. Yeah I did a bi of reading on the Rainbow fish sites and found a lot about this kind of thing.
> 
> I have a 15allon set up, and 30 gallon available, another about 25 gallons or so, and then a 4 ft tank also spare.. How many fish would you comfortably quarantine at one time in the 15 gallon? I like using this one as it's so easy to do water changes and it's so simple to dose, but I don't want to overstock it and thus induce problems with the fish due to bad quality water in the QT.
> 
> Thanks again! Much appreciate the opinions


I would do no more than a half dozen at a time in the Q-tank. 

I also noticed you mentioned the dreaded MB. (myco bacteria) As long as you are getting the fish from a reliable breeder you have little to fear from it. It is a nasty thing, especially for rainbows which seem to be more susceptible to it. It is however something that can be beat without tearing down the tank, Diana Walstead happened to do just this, and made it a research paper easily found around. This bacteria will exist in every tank no matter what you do. The problem comes in when it manages to out compete other bacteria, and throws the biological balance out of whack. It can then infect fish, and is hard to stop at that point. She found that it does not compete well with other bacteria, it is slow growing and just about every other bacteria is very fast growing. The trick to fighting it seems to be putting the tank back in balance by keeping the tank a little more dirty, running a UV sterilizer to beat down water born bacteria and being aggressive in culling infected fish. After reading her research paper I am less afraid of it than I had been before. 

I quarentine for 30 days even if it is a trusted breeder / store. There is so much out there even out of their control that it leaves a sense of safety.


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

That's a relief. I feel like there must be a lot of paranoia about this specific bacteria and a lot of people rotate tanks and disinfect regularly.. I can't fathom doing that.

I actually read (most of) her research paper! Haha I adore her. It was what motivated me to buy the canister filter I have as it has UV. Though it would be a good preventative measure. I know a lot of people a conflicted on using UV, as it can be ineffective if there isn't enough contact time and can kill any good bacteria it come into contact with also, but I feel as if it's worth it. 

Alright then, I probably will quarantine then. Even if they sit there for a month with not problems, I'll kick myself if I don't and something happens..


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## cpwebsite (Dec 12, 2012)

Perchance said:


> I thought a large school of diamond tetras would be nice.. But I'm not sure what constitutes a 'large' enough number hahah 24? 35? I had looked at the balloon lamp eye tetras after seeing your posts, but they seem to require the lower temperature waters.
> 
> What are some higher temperature tetras which school really well?
> 
> ...


Depending on what else you want you could easily keep 50-100 since they only get to 2.5" if you focus on your water changes but you couldn't keep much else.

Cardinal tetras work too for schooling in larger tanks and you could easily keep 100+


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## Neatfish (Jun 22, 2012)

5/6 Discus, 100 neon tetras or Cardinal tetras?


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## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

Perchance said:


> That's a relief. I feel like there must be a lot of paranoia about this specific bacteria and a lot of people rotate tanks and disinfect regularly.. I can't fathom doing that.
> 
> I actually read (most of) her research paper! Haha I adore her. It was what motivated me to buy the canister filter I have as it has UV. Though it would be a good preventative measure. I know a lot of people a conflicted on using UV, as it can be ineffective if there isn't enough contact time and can kill any good bacteria it come into contact with also, but I feel as if it's worth it.
> 
> Alright then, I probably will quarantine then. Even if they sit there for a month with not problems, I'll kick myself if I don't and something happens..


My first experience in fish keeping ended with me wiping out my 10g of pretty little tetras because I did not Q-tank a fresh batch, was a sobering learning experience to me. 

I am now debating for my 40B either going with M.Nigrans or M.pygmaea Decisions Decisions.


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Noahma said:


> My first experience in fish keeping ended with me wiping out my 10g of pretty little tetras because I did not Q-tank a fresh batch, was a sobering learning experience to me.
> 
> I am now debating for my 40B either going with M.Nigrans or M.pygmaea Decisions Decisions.



That would've been a harsh introduction.. I mean i just came back to freshwater after a few years with marine and I lost the majority of he Rosboras I bought. Some kind of bacterial infection. They went from fine, schooling healthy and eating well to ratty fins and red patches in just a few hours. Poor little guys. It sucks to loose fish when you know how they rely on you so much and you can't help/

I love the M. Nigrans, they're colors are gorgeous. The ones from Goerge Creek, I think have the nicest fins. Are you thinking of breeding them in a species specific tank?


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

cpwebsite said:


> Depending on what else you want you could easily keep 50-100 since they only get to 2.5" if you focus on your water changes but you couldn't keep much else.
> 
> Cardinal tetras work too for schooling in larger tanks and you could easily keep 100+



I originally wanted this; I large shoaling school and little fish that would look lovely in this large tank. Maybe another project, though... I've kind of fallen in love with the idea of rainbowfish, I think. But thanks for those numbers - I think a school of 70 odd diamond or lemon tetras would be great.



Neatfish said:


> 5/6 Discus, 100 neon tetras or Cardinal tetras?



I decided to stay away from discus.. Even though the temp they needed was ok, I'd have to lower my pH and I wasn't looking for something that would need anything more than weekly water changes... It would be a stunning display tank, though.




Also, for some reason when I tested my water today, I got a reading of 0.25ppm for Nitrites.. Why on earth would they pop up like that? Ammonia and nitrates are still reading 0, and nitrites were 0 two days ago, when I last tested it.. I will do a large water change tomorrow =/ would 40% suffice?


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Random questions as well haha I have that tall anbias that grows leaves to the top of the tank, some native Aus lillies and also a native rainbow nardoo (Marsilea mutica) on one side of my tank... I want some nice dense plants to place around the bottom of these plants that can deal with being shaded a little... I have way too much like on this tank.. 8 x 80watt t5s. So they still have plenty of light, but just are a bit shaded.. I still want them to grow densely though. Parrots Feather was suggested but it's considered a noxious weed here.


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

I thought I'd give you guys an update... I lost all the rosboras =/ I took them out of the main tank and put them in the hospital tank which I was medicating. They would look fine, then suddenly very lethargic and unable to stay upright before dying within an hour. 

I ordered some rainbows and quarantined them for (not as long as a should have but - all was ok and I dosed with some preventative medications anyways.) They were in a QT for 10 days or so. But they seemed healthy and too cramped in the QT so I put them in the main tank... Impatient. Idk. They are healthy and that's all that matters to me, but I deserve the reprimand for doing it. Regardless, the next order of fish I make will go through 1 month of QT as there would be too much of a risk with so many fish already in the main tank


I was also adding plants to the main tank through their QT so the tank looks really different from the last picture. I also have another order of plants coming next week with some more of the Native Val I love, some hopefully ground covering Hansen's Nardoo for the left corner and some Copper Leaf bunched which I forget the scientific name of. 

For comparative purposes, here is a photo of the tank taken today. The tank is a little murky as one piece of driftwood seems to be still leeching tannins into the water (i think...) anyway, water change scheduled for today


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## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

Lookin good.


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Thanks.. I should probably do a journal thread but I don't think my tank really warrants it. I'm seeing the beginnings of a PITA algae problem. It's A kind of green fuzzy hair algae covering way too many leaves now. Especially on the sword.

I've decreased the 'Midday' light period by an hour. It's not on for 6 hours and I though 5 would be better. By other lights which is just 2 bulbs (one blue one purple) are on for a couple hours either side of that. 

I dose liquid fertilizer and liquid carbon which I'm wondering if I should cut back or not?

What lighting period would you recommend, also? I have an 8 bulb t5 fixture with separate controls for 2 bulbs and the other 6.


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Anyone? Is it too little light if I have a blue and red bulb on from 12pm till 12am and then a midday burst 4 hours long with 4 dayblulbs and 2 blue bulbs from 2 pm till 6pm? My red ludwigia (I think it is, the leaves are not as circular as most pictures,) and my Aponogeton Crispus aren't doing that well. Slow growth in the former, almost translucent leaves in the latter. I think maybe this is an iron deficiancy? But someone also suggested that too little light can lead to the larger gaps between leaves which I'm seeing in the ludwigia. 

Yet at the same time, I'm having an algae problem and thus want to cut down the lighting?


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## farrenator (May 11, 2011)

You have a 12 hour photoperiod with a 4 hour midday blast? That sounds like too much light to me. I would cut back the hours and raise the lights.

For reference, on my 75 gallon I have an 8 hour photoperiod with 2 t5HO. My mid day blast is 4 t5HO for 3 hours. The lights sit about 30" above the substrate and I still get some BBA (I also dose CO2). I am considering raising the lights even more. Plant growth is still great.


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## LB79 (Nov 18, 2011)

Don't cut the lighting. Step up the water changes and start dosing iron.


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## n00dl3 (Jan 26, 2008)

LB79 said:


> Don't cut the lighting. Step up the water changes and start dosing iron.


There is apparent imbalance going on in the tank for him to start developing algae. Wouldn't it be smart to dial back the light or ask for his tank spec before throwing out a random advice?

Anyways, OP what are your tank spec? fert? co2? (Looks like no co2).


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Thanks.. So I'll cut it down to a 10 hour photoperiod and see how that goes? The reason I was a bit confused is that the 2 bulbs that would be on for 10 hours (or 8 if 10 is still too long) are only an actinic bulb and a purpleish one from the reef days. So that seems like barely any light, at all, really. Basically, if I'm not doing such a long 'midday' period, should I put a white bulb in with the blue instead?

Seeing as I have so much light, I figured those two bulbs be okay to leave there as it looks great for a kind of morning/sunset lighting. Then the midday white/yello bulbs are all in the other 6 that come on for only 4 hours. There 4 white and 2 blue in that as I was thinking the blue would add color but not really much intensity or PAR value.

That lights are about 52 inches about the substrate. I want to raise them but I'm having major problems with how exactly I can't access the space in the roof above the lights, and putting a brace on the wall strong enough to holy the massive light fitting seems like a pain that I'm not up for...


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

*Her. Sorry didn't see the other responses. I'm planning on getting just the seachem Iron as I've been reading up on the symptoms in some of my plants. The minimal growth in the ludiwgia and the translucent young leaves.

Tank is 180 gallon 6x2x2ft only been set up maybe 3 months now. I do 40% water changes every 10 days to 2 weeks or so (mainly because some new driftwood seems to still leeching tannins into the water and yellowing it). Filtration is a large sump filter and the AquaOne 2700 canister filter.

Readings for ammonia, nitrites are 0 and nitrates barely register, I would say 0 but I'm being pessimistic here. Water is soft and has pH of 7.2. My phosphate test kit is out of date, so I don't really trust it.. But it comes up with 0, or extremely close to, not quite the next color level. 

I dose with AquaGreen's liquid fertilizer and their liquid carbon also (think Seachem excel without the price) as well as their root tabs everywhere in the gravel, concentrated around the base of larger plants. The substrate is river sand underneath river gravel. The fertilizer I use, makes no mention of iron, so I'll be adding that regardless of whether I change the light cycle.



So, no, I don't have pressurized CO2, but I was hoping that the constant addition of liquid carbon would suffice? There shouldn't be a difference, should there?

EDIT: the Crispus I'm worried about with the translucent-ish leaves has also got two flowers up atm, and the amazon sword in the tank has got mabe 5 sprouts off a running in the last 10 days. And a little crypt I got tossed in at a petshop because it was just basically leaves falling apart, has now got 7 plants from runners all going well. Wisteria is sending out dozens of smaller plants and shoots as is the hygro. The australian val, various anubias and lace fern are also going well. As is the lillie and rainbow nardoo I have. My rotalla indica is not very red, though (iron again?). So other plants seem healthy, despite the layer of bushy algae.


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## farrenator (May 11, 2011)

Hmm, not sure what to say. I can only relate my experience which was when I had too much light I got BBA. Seeing that raising the lights is difficult, play with the photoperiod. I hope someone else has other suggestions.



Perchance said:


> Thanks.. So I'll cut it down to a 10 hour photoperiod and see how that goes? The reason I was a bit confused is that the 2 bulbs that would be on for 10 hours (or 8 if 10 is still too long) are only an actinic bulb and a purpleish one from the reef days. So that seems like barely any light, at all, really. Basically, if I'm not doing such a long 'midday' period, should I put a white bulb in with the blue instead?
> 
> Seeing as I have so much light, I figured those two bulbs be okay to leave there as it looks great for a kind of morning/sunset lighting. Then the midday white/yello bulbs are all in the other 6 that come on for only 4 hours. There 4 white and 2 blue in that as I was thinking the blue would add color but not really much intensity or PAR value.
> 
> That lights are about 52 inches about the substrate. I want to raise them but I'm having major problems with how exactly I can't access the space in the roof above the lights, and putting a brace on the wall strong enough to holy the massive light fitting seems like a pain that I'm not up for...


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## LB79 (Nov 18, 2011)

n00dl3 said:


> There is apparent imbalance going on in the tank for him to start developing algae. Wouldn't it be smart to dial back the light or ask for his tank spec before throwing out a random advice?
> 
> Anyways, OP what are your tank spec? fert? co2? (Looks like no co2).


Sometimes the best way to achieve and maintain balance is to perform large water changes and add ferts and CO2. My tanks get overrun by algae if I don't put in the liquid ferts and/or the CO2 isn't running. The idea is to jack the plants' metabolism, and they will outcompete the algae.


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## Sara3502 (Jun 18, 2012)

I have a female kribensis in a 46 gallon bowfront community tank. She has never stirred up trouble, but mostly keeps to herself. I don't think you would have a problem


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

LB79 said:


> Sometimes the best way to achieve and maintain balance is to perform large water changes and add ferts and CO2. My tanks get overrun by algae if I don't put in the liquid ferts and/or the CO2 isn't running. The idea is to jack the plants' metabolism, and they will outcompete the algae.



So, because I'm doing ferts and liquid carbon, am I doing too little of these to go with the lighting? I think I'm doing plenty of water changes. Though there could be phosphate in my water, and the test kid bugged. I read somewhere, maybe... Probably got this wrong, but that phosphate has seen to encourage flowering in apon. crispus plants.. Like mine is atm. Can't remember though. I might just cut down on feeding, but the lights on 10 hours and 4 hours midday burst and see if it helps.


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

farrenator said:


> Hmm, not sure what to say. I can only relate my experience which was when I had too much light I got BBA. Seeing that raising the lights is difficult, play with the photoperiod. I hope someone else has other suggestions.


I'll try and lift the lights a little through some kind of platform or something. How high would you have the lights?


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## LB79 (Nov 18, 2011)

Perchance said:


> So, because I'm doing ferts and liquid carbon, am I doing too little of these to go with the lighting? I think I'm doing plenty of water changes. Though there could be phosphate in my water, and the test kid bugged. I read somewhere, maybe... Probably got this wrong, but that phosphate has seen to encourage flowering in apon. crispus plants.. Like mine is atm. Can't remember though. I might just cut down on feeding, but the lights on 10 hours and 4 hours midday burst and see if it helps.


True. I have my lights on for 9 hours. Phosphate in the water also encourages algae. What you could do is get a phosphate-removing resin (don't know what it's called, but I've heard the stuff works), and put it in the filter. I feed my fish once every two days on the assumption that in the wild, they spend a lot of energy finding a relatively small amount of food. Less is more in captivity, I think. Anyway, they don't seem any more hungry than when I fed them three times a day, and they're certainly healthy.


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## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

Perchance said:


> Thanks.. I should probably do a journal thread but I don't think my tank really warrants it. I'm seeing the beginnings of a PITA algae problem. It's A kind of green fuzzy hair algae covering way too many leaves now. Especially on the sword.
> 
> I've decreased the 'Midday' light period by an hour. It's not on for 6 hours and I though 5 would be better. By other lights which is just 2 bulbs (one blue one purple) are on for a couple hours either side of that.
> 
> ...





Perchance said:


> Anyone? Is it too little light if I have a blue and red bulb on from 12pm till 12am and then a midday burst 4 hours long with 4 dayblulbs and 2 blue bulbs from 2 pm till 6pm? My red ludwigia (I think it is, the leaves are not as circular as most pictures,) and my Aponogeton Crispus aren't doing that well. Slow growth in the former, almost translucent leaves in the latter. I think maybe this is an iron deficiancy? But someone also suggested that too little light can lead to the larger gaps between leaves which I'm seeing in the ludwigia.
> 
> Yet at the same time, I'm having an algae problem and thus want to cut down the lighting?


if those bulbs are T5HO your over driving your tank and not dosing the other legs of the stool to keep things in balance. The liquid ferts and "liquid carbon" are not enough so algae gains an edge. With that much light you really need to have injected co2 and a comprehensive NPK fertilizing regimen. I would highly suggest you take a look into the fertilizer area of the forum and read up a little bit. The hair algae is not that bad of an algae to get rid of. Get the tank in balance and it will fade on its own. You can suck it off the plants in the mean time, or use something like algaefix (if you do not have any invertebrates in the tank) Tom Barr has done a pretty good job destroying the myth that phosphates promote algae growth, in fact it is a necessary fertilizer and can keep algae like green spot at bay. Everything in the tank must be in balance of algae has a chance at breaking though.


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## Perchance (Dec 4, 2012)

Noahma said:


> if those bulbs are T5HO your over driving your tank and not dosing the other legs of the stool to keep things in balance. The liquid ferts and "liquid carbon" are not enough so algae gains an edge. With that much light you really need to have injected co2 and a comprehensive NPK fertilizing regimen. I would highly suggest you take a look into the fertilizer area of the forum and read up a little bit. The hair algae is not that bad of an algae to get rid of. Get the tank in balance and it will fade on its own. You can suck it off the plants in the mean time, or use something like algaefix (if you do not have any invertebrates in the tank) Tom Barr has done a pretty good job destroying the myth that phosphates promote algae growth, in fact it is a necessary fertilizer and can keep algae like green spot at bay. Everything in the tank must be in balance of algae has a chance at breaking though.



How is liquid carbon not as useful as pressurized carbon? If I'm adding enough liquid carbon, will it still be too little..? That doesn't make sense to me, but I'm sure someone has some facts about how well plants use liquid vs pressurized carbon. 

The algae is actually going away at this point? I've been spot treating a little with the liquid carbon. Could it be more new tank type outburst? 

The liquid fert is " chelated trace elements, nitrogen and potassium" but no phosphate. Which is rellied on from fish food and waste. I plan on adding iron, as well. So is this not really doing much? I can fairly easily access specific other elements but really just want it to be easy. 


There are only 4 day bulbs, though? Will the blue lights actually add much consumable light for plants and algae? I don't know. I'll still minimize the light period and raise the lights. The algae isn't so bad at the moment though... 

Thanks for the opinion, I'll look up some threads on the fertilizer area of the forum.  Injected co2, however, is fairly impossible at this point... Definitely in the future, just not atm.


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## sanj (Jan 11, 2004)

Cutting the light period and intensity is usually better than messing around with other parameters first.

Light is the driving force. More light = more requirement for co2, more macros (NPK) and more trace elements.

If you want to maintain high light levels then you have to up all the other elements and few people maintain tanks for long periods with all the unessarry work associated with High input requiring tanks.

All my aquariums have 6-7 hours duration of light, typically 30-40 PAR at the substrate. Beyond 8-9 hours, I dont see the point. It is not necesarry unless you like being charged for leccy that you dont need to use.

I wouldnt waste money on phosphate removers. You can balance your system without such desperate measures.


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