# Decided 4gal planted 56K



## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

So I checked out this site: www.aquatic-gardeners.org
And I wish i had seen it sooner  It answers most of my questions... I think. Tell me if im on the right track.

4gal tank
Black inert gravel
13watts CF
Pearlweed or hemianthus micranthemoides
petit nana
and some other plant not sure which yet 
Ferts are root tabs prob Jobes (becase my LFS caries bleep) and whatever the LFS has for water column fertilizing

Okay so what do you think?


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

4 gal tank, check.
Black inert gravel, check
I'd go with a higher wattage CF bulb.
Ferts? I'd just dose a little Excel now and then. If it's too much light, just move the desk lamp a bit farther away. =p


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

What wattage would you suggest?


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

i have a 26w twist fluorescent bulb over my 2.5g.


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## tropicalfish (Mar 29, 2007)

If you use a screw-in style CF bulb, I would see if you can try and find full spectrum "U-Tube" lights, with uses two or more "U-Tubes", rather than spirals, which provides better light and less restrike.


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

I have only seen one of those which is a trilight bulb. But that is 32 watts. That is way way too much wattage.


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## gotcheaprice (Aug 29, 2007)

I had 27 over my 3 gallon.


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## JustOneMore21 (May 23, 2006)

I have 27w over my 3g...works nicely. I use DIY CO2 and ferts. I have some algae issues, but so do all my other tanks (some that aren't high light). 

Excel will work well in small tanks too.


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

Well it looks like the best light that I can find right now in stores is 23 watts. I am going to the next closest town some time later this week to see what they have for lights... and plants  

Im gonna see if they have excel and if they dont then I am just going to use whatever brand they have. 

I am not going to use CO2. It just seems like a hassle to me re filling the bottles every week or every other week. 

My little 3 gal is set up now temporarily on a filing cabnet with the inert gravel and some fake branches. I know not good but they dont have any nice pieces of driftwood right now and their next shipment will most likely be next year (its not a big seller). They are all mutant potato shaped believe it or not. 
I have yet to add water... need to empty out the cabnet with all the important papers


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

Well I found 26watt CF spiral bulbs so I bought them. My little tank is now set up... I couldnt wait.
I have:
4gal tank
26watt CF spiral in a general desk lamp
Black inert fish gravel
15-20gal HOB filter (I know it seems like a lot but trust me it isint... cheap brand)
Fake branches (doesnt look too bad)
Flourish excel
Aqua Plus
Fish food (various kinds)

Still need to get:
Black background
hemianthus micranthemoides
petit nana
rotala rotundiloia 
maybe another plant too??? I dunno
And later on some white cloud mountain minnows, 99 cents each! much better than $3.39 for a zebra danio  
How many fish do you think 3 or 4?


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## MARIMOBALL (Mar 18, 2007)

look for soil master select at you local home depot for substrate. Or use unfertilized potting soil toped with sand or small size gravel. Stems wont do good on inert large gravel. Moss does good in cold water stems with broad leafs do ok also but will look out of proportion in that tank. I say add a heater for more plant options. I use 24watts PC on my 3.5 gal and I plan to use 36watts on a 5 gal Im going to start.


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## James From Cali (Dec 15, 2006)

MARIMOBALL said:


> look for soil master select at you local home depot for substrate. Or use unfertilized potting soil toped with sand or small size gravel. Stems wont do good on inert large gravel. Moss does good in cold water stems with broad leafs do ok also but will look out of proportion in that tank. I say add a heater for more plant options. I use 24watts PC on my 3.5 gal and I plan to use 36watts on a 5 gal Im going to start.


I've kept rotala sp., anubias, and many other stem plants outside without a heater and it dropped to about low 50's. Plants are very hardy if you get the right ones.


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

Marimoball: the nearest home depot to me is about 8 hours away and all soil is now put away because the season is over for anything gardening related. All potting soil I have seen around here has fertilizer in it and most potting soils are specialized (violet mix, orchid mix, tropical plant mix, etc) So this option is out.
Trust me I have looked for small sized gravel but the best I can find is not inert. It will raise my ph and currently mine is at a nice 6.5. I dont want sand because I will constantly need to stir it around and the smallest bag I could get would weigh the limit i could carry.
As I have previously said my only option around here is inert big ugly gravel. Black is the hardest to come by. Most common is clown puke.

Since adding water, the temperature has kept steady at 68-70F depending on how long I leave the light on.


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## James From Cali (Dec 15, 2006)

Forgot to mention I have stem plants in inert black gravel and they are doing fine.


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## PhotoJon01 (Jul 28, 2007)

I would be willing to ship you some SMS for a dollar plus whatever shipping cost would be.


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

Thats very kind of you but I think Im gonna stick with the inert gravel. Thank you anyway


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## MARIMOBALL (Mar 18, 2007)

I have used inert black sand before, but I added peat and mulm from another tank before adding the sand. Guess your gonna have to use what you have available. keep us updated.


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

Just to update. No plants yet. Nothing good at the lfs and waiting on a guy from a different forum for some rotala and brazilian pennywort. 

The temperature is staying at a constant 68F or 20C without the light on.


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## psybock (Jan 12, 2007)

*mudpie*

Have you tried dirt from your yard yet? I know it sounds silly but I've heard of people using it. Also, if you could get some hands on any organic planting soil that might work as well, at least it worked in my paludarium and stayed predominately underwater for about 6 months before I tore the thing down and moved. The only problem was that it stained the water a tea color indefinitely. As far as wood is concerned, if you have any "branchy" limbs from last year lying around then they would be safe to boil and then place in your aquarium, I did that to a couple of oak branches and had no problem, actually I used them to help lower the ph of my water in order to breed paradise gourami's (my ph stays at 7.8 b/c my kh is off the charts). However, they have to be dry and seasoned, otherwise it will screw up the water, oh and don't use pine, the tar/sap inside will royally mess up anything.

One last thing, some stem plants will grow in plain gravel, at least some of the hardier rotalla or frill plants have succeded for me, also may grassy plants will work as well, such as the dwarf sag. have worked for me in just plain gravel, well with the addition of ferts. You could also use fert tabs if you are too worried about not getting enough ferts to the roots.


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

nope never even thought about dirt from my yard. Its pretty bad soil but its on the mend. I just moved to this house last year so this summer I went fertilizer and organics crazy to make some good soil for my flowers. I dont think my soil is at all good for tanks at this point. I would be afraid of whatever leeches into the water.

And yea I will be buying some root tabs for extra ferts. Do you think Jobes fern sticks will work? Ive read some people use them but some are concerned about urea? I dunno.

I would be very hard pressed to find hardwood around here to put in my tanks. What we have is an abundance of softwoods like pine and cedar and hemlock. My 20gal has some nice driftwood in it from the lfs and its all tannin stained. Personally I like it because it makes the colours of my fish stand out more, I also hate it because the pictures turn out horrible. It looks like someone filled the tank with pee.


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## psybock (Jan 12, 2007)

No I haven't used those, I've used seachem plant tabs mostly. I've heard of people using the jobes, just never tried them. I would be concerned with practically any fertilizer stick or tab used for terrestrial plants, thus I would only go with aquarium safe ones just to be careful.


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## manda (Oct 4, 2007)

*where is it that you live...*

why would the nearest home depot be 8 hours away??  lol I cant even imagine that... although i live in the bay area... :redface:


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

because I live in a little town named Kitimat and the nearest Home Depot is in Prince George which is 8 hours away... unless you want to break some rules then its only about 5-6 hours away lol


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

YAY! My plants came in today from a very generous member on a local forum. He sent me a lot more than I asked for. He's the best . It was extremely cold today and the package the plants came in felt even colder. I hope the plants do okay.
As far as I can tell I know I have:
Brazilian pennywort
rotala rotindifolia
star grass
Lindernia rotundifolia (baby tears)

As for the rest I am gonna need help with them.
In the far left back corner of the tank I think I have 
Diplis diandra (blood stargrass)
in front of that I think its sunset hygro
In front of that I think its Taiwan moss but right now its looking like Java 
Also in the front right corner I think this is HM.
Please let me know if i am right.

Nash being Curious

































Left side









Right Side









Top View









Lighting is 26watt CF desklamp 6 hours per day. Should I change this time for more or less?
Dosing today was 6 drops of flourish excel and then 3 drops everyday after that. Let me know if this is correct as well.
Any input would be greatly appreciated. Espically trying to find out what those plants are.
Thanks for looking


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## frasertheking (Jun 15, 2007)

looks great what brand of light are you using in the lamp


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

I am using a GE energy smart 6500K Daylight bulb from walmart.


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## mpodolan (Mar 27, 2007)

The back left looks like limnophila aromatica to me. i believe that is sunset hygro in front of it. The front right doesn't look like HM to me, but I'm not sure what it is. What is the one towards the middle with the white veins on the leaves?


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

The one with the white veins is Lindernia rotundifolia or baby tears


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## mpodolan (Mar 27, 2007)

Oh, it doesn't look like that in any of the photos I found. The right front _might_ be creeping jenny


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

I just heard from shaobo (the guy I bought the plants from) that he is gonna send me a plant list of what he sent me later today. So hopefully I will know everything I have. 
I did find some ricca bits floating around in the tank. I wonder which plant it came on hmmmmmmmmmm oh well. If it lives and grows then i guess i will have 9 plants  YAY stock for my 32gal.


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## mpodolan (Mar 27, 2007)

Yea, post the list once you get it. I like to test my plant IDing skills, so it will be interesting to know


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

Alright I have a plant list
The moss is weeping moss
The plant in the far back left is limnophilia aromatica 
In front of that is sunset hygro
I did find some ricca floating around so its all collected in a corner at the top of the tank.
next to the aromatica is rotala rotindifolia next to that is baby tears
In front of those two (middle of tank) is star grass
In the far back right is brazilian pennywort 
the tall plant in the front right is creeping jenny.
I will try to take a full tank shot and post it later today


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

Background will be comming when I have a chance to get to the lfs. As for fish I am thinking 4 or 5 white cloud mountain minnow. What do you think?










I split up the creeping jenny and planted any part that had roots in the substrate. I also tied up the weeping moss onto the branches.

Once my 32 low light is set up this little tank will be edited. I am also planning on making my 20 a medium light when my bulb goes


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## frozenbarb (Dec 16, 2006)

Use a Grabage Bag its easier and Looks just as nice


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## pet-teez (Aug 17, 2007)

6 white clouds


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

6? wont that be too many in a 4 gal?


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## j_m_lizard (Oct 14, 2007)

skabooya said:


> 6? wont that be too many in a 4 gal?


Not a well planted and filtered 4 gallon that gets regular WCs.


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

Should I even bother with a clean up crew for this tank? Its a cold water tank 20C. 
I am tossing this idea around. 
Maybe a shrimp or two or a cory. Although they would get big. The lfs doesnt sell any pygmies here. hmmmmm. I also wonder about a kulihi loach, Ive had 3 before. They do keep things clean. *sigh* time for some research


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## pet-teez (Aug 17, 2007)

Nope, the white clouds will peck at stuff and it's really too small to add much more, Cories prefer to be in groups of three or more, shrimp would rather it be a lil warmer than that (more like 75/78) and I really wouldn't suggest Khulis, I love them but not in a tank that small... plus they like to be kept with 3 or more also.
White clouds are perfect because they are small, neat to watch and are fine in cooler water than most fish... I have four in a 5g mini bow right now with a huge clump of java moss on a driftwood, no heater and a duetto100 internal filter and they have changed to a more reddish color (I've never seen them like this, they have always been a white/silver with red and now they are a rosy color with red)



skabooya said:


> Should I even bother with a clean up crew for this tank? Its a cold water tank 20C.
> I am tossing this idea around.
> Maybe a shrimp or two or a cory. Although they would get big. The lfs doesnt sell any pygmies here. hmmmmm. I also wonder about a kulihi loach, Ive had 3 before. They do keep things clean. *sigh* time for some research


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## j_m_lizard (Oct 14, 2007)

I'd ask you LFS about getting pygmy corys in, since in my experience working at an LFS, they are readily available through most wholesalers at a very decent price.

Other than that, I'd suggest some ghost shrimp - they are short lived, but cheep, pretty, effective cleaners (not so much algae, but detritus), and they don't mind cold water at all.

An otocinclus cat would be a good idea too, but I'm not sure on their temp flexibility.

-Jared


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

I agree. After doing some research my tank is just too cold and small to add anything else.
I think i will go for 5 white clouds so they are a bit more comfy. 
As for the lfs, they wouldnt order anything in unless there was a demand for it. If I am the only person that asks for a pygmy cory then there is no way i will get it. They would need to order a set amount 10 or 20 or whatever it is and if i am the only person that buys then its just a waste for them.

Oh well though, looks like white clouds are on the list. 

Question. The stargrass I recieved came with some hair algae on it. To get rid of it i just make sure nutrients are low? reduce lighting?
Or should I just keep my regular schedule up to see how its gonna do because maybe it was the other persons tank I got this from that had the problem.
I have no idea if i should wait it out and see if my tank and regular schedule nullifies what the algae grew in in the other guys tank or if i should start some regeime to combat it now. 
What does everyone think?


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

HAIR ALGAE!!!

















I know its due to high nutrients. This stuff came on the plants and its been spreading. So what do i do? 
Starve them with no excel for a week or two? Reduce light? Or do i want to keep the light going with no excel so the plants can suck up all the nutrients?
GAH! Ive even tried spot dosing but it seems to make it worse.
Could it be a combination of spot dosing is creating too much excess nutrients so it keeps growing and spreading? 
HELP!!!!


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## SearunSimpson (Jun 5, 2007)

Looks like staghorn to me. Had it a few times, but I just added a ****e-load of stems (h. Polysperma [sp?]) and it went away. I try to stay away from chems if I can.


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## j_m_lizard (Oct 14, 2007)

skabooya said:


> HAIR ALGAE!!!
> I know its due to high nutrients. This stuff came on the plants and its been spreading. So what do i do?
> Starve them with no excel for a week or two? Reduce light? Or do i want to keep the light going with no excel so the plants can suck up all the nutrients?
> GAH! Ive even tried spot dosing but it seems to make it worse.
> ...


This is a new tank, algae is expected, calm down.

Whatever you do, keep dosing excel, as it is certainly not the problem. In fact, Excel may be your savior here. See, the plants use Carbon much more efficiently than algae, so if there's plenty of carbon the plants will grow well and quickly, using up all the real nutrients available, and starving the algae. The problem is really not excess nutrients, so much as ratios of available nutrients, so just keep dosing Excel (maybe even up your dosage), do water-changes, get some algae eaters in there to clean up a little (shrimp maybe?) and be patient - the tank will actually clear itself up as it reaches an equilibrium.

-Jared


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

Alright. Staghorn it is. Ive been checking out the algae threads and the general consencus is to up the CO2. Well i dont have that but I do have excel so instead of 3 drops per day im doing about 8, maybe more and spot treating. I also moved the light up. It is now 5 inches above the water surface.
I am also going to get some new filter media that does not include carbon. The one i have has a carbon net attached to it so i am afraid its sucking up all the excel. Its gonna be switched out soon.

I was looking at the thread which talks about things that eat staghorn. Everything would be too big except for a small molly.
Might this work? I would only add one, maybe two and it would be temporary. 
If i do add them then would they eat any of my delicate plants like the stargrass? What about platy's? Do they eat staghorn? Im just wondering because they are smaller. (THIS IS ONLY FOR TEMPORARY HOUSING)

I am also letting the ricca pieces float around and grow to help combat the algae. They have already doubled in size since I recieved the plants. Only a few small broken pieces of ricca survived but WOW this stuff grows fast.

I hope this staghorn goes away quickly. It aparently takes 2-4 weeks right?


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

Right so heres an update. The algae has gotten a lot worse. Not only do i have staghorn which is looking much like medusas hair but I am also getting plenty of fuzz algae? The point is the algae has gotten a lot worse. 
On the bright side. Ive been watching this lump of goo that was on some of my stargrass leaves. Research told me it was snail eggs. I figured meh they arent going to survive. The plants were shipped and it was cold. The tank was also going through a cycle. I also added 5 white clouds not too long ago.
Anyway 2 days ago I notice i had a little snail in my tank. Upon closer inspection I counted 5 red ramshorn looking snails (little teeny babies) and the ball of goo looked like it was split open. 
YAY! I hope these little guys live and grow and breed in this tank so they can eat all my algae.
Any suggestions on how to keep these cuties alive?


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## mpodolan (Mar 27, 2007)

They are hard to get rid of. I'm sure they'll thrive in your tank!


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Looks very nice  My only advice is to stick some coasters under the right side of the stand. 

Oh, and FYI, Soilmaster Select isn't soil, it's just a finer gravel made up of fired clay, sort of like tiny lava rocks. Not trying to talk you out of gravel or anything, I've grown some nice plants in gravel, just suspected you were under the impression that it's soil. Actually, it's an absorbent top dressing for ball fields and absorbs and transfers nutrients through root systems well. Seems like there's some trouble getting ahold of it now commercially, anyway, and I suspect people might be shifting back to the alternatives shortly.


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

9 I count 9 beautiful baby snails muahahahaha.
And jaidexl thanks for the info about soimaster select. I think i will do some more research on it for my 33gal tank compared to fluorite.


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

Just a little update on how things look


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

One month later and here is an update. Taken before a water change and cleaning so sorry about the low water level and dirty tank.
1 new plant added in back left corner- rotala indica
Algae is pretty much totally gone.
Also sorry about the camera reflection the tank is temp in my kitchen (very bright area)


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

no comments? Fine then I have a question that I hope will be answered.
I was told a few times on another forum and from the guy i bought the plants from that the plant in the front left corner (some on the front right too) was creeping jenny. But with its new growth i really need to disagree. 
It doesnt look like creeping jenny at all. 

What is this plant?


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## mpodolan (Mar 27, 2007)

Your tank looks nice! It kinda looks like creeping jenny to me, but it's hard to tell without a closer shot


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## dirkgent001 (Nov 20, 2007)

I agree.. I'm seeing creeping jenny to me too, but a closer photo will put the question to rest.

Love that driftwood you have in there.. wish I could get me some branchy stuff like that.


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

Thanks.
The driftwood is plastic believe it or not  I have another large piece in my 20gal.

I will get a close up of my plant in question in the next few days.
I thought creeping jenny was bigger and grew up towards the light. At least thats what the pics always look like. Mine is growing low and spreading very very slowly. VERY slowly.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

That's creeping jenny, it can grow either way, that's how it gets the common name description. I have some directly under 100w out in the open and it grows straight up, except for a few pieces that get caught under a larger plant, those crawl around horizontally them shoot straight up once they find the light. Yours is either crawling toward patches of higher light or trying to consume a high light area by horizontally blanketing it like wisteria does.


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## JenThePlantGeek (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't think it's creeping jenny (_Lysimachia nummularia_). 

I think it is _Micranthemum umbrosum_, also called giant baby's tears. I've had both plants, and this looks a lot more like M. umbrosum to me. The leaves look smaller and there's something about the slight way they curl. Also, for me creeping jenny always had slightly more robust stems than baby's tears. They were thicker and tended to grow a bit taller. Heh, if you want I can send you some creeping jenny and we can compare? :hihi:


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

I think you're right Jen, everything seems to look bigger than 4gl in the pics.


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

wow, 3 bucks for zebra danios!? they must be long finned bc the ones at my lfs are only 15 cents


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

nope just plain ol zebra danios. There used to be two lfs but the family operated one sold their buisness and the people that took over were stupid so no one shopped there anymore. They had to close thus ending the competition. Now we only have petland and they can charge whatever they want.


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

Oh and just to update info on the 4gal tank, I moved it out of my office into the kitchen temporarily. My husband is lazy and so hes been working on the office reno since before christmas *sigh.* I got a steady temporary job at the higschool teaching grade 8 science and curently two grade 12 english classes. The tank has been grossley neglected.

I did a major clean on it today. Wow it was dirty. I could not see into the tank at all. The algae was so thick it was almost black. After removing as much plant matter and hardscape as i could i started scraping the sides and draining the tank. It stunk like sulfur. i mean it was PHEW!
Most of my snails were dead (i found 5 still alive) and 3 of my white clouds were still alive (1 female and 2 males). They looked pretty healthy to my surprise.
Anyway It was a big clean and the difference is dramatic but i just threw the plants back in there so there is currently no aquascape.
Its in a sad state. 
I will be re-making the tank once my office is complete and i can put it back where i want it. 
If anyone wants i can post an updated pic of the tank now after the clean up.


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## starsunmoon (Apr 5, 2008)

sure would love to see it !! hey and did the jenny< or baby tears ever grow >?? where of who is a great supplier>?? for plants ? ty~~


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

Actually found out it was m. umbrosum (probably dont have the spelling right).

I got my plants from another member on bcaquaria. But i just filled up my 32gal tank with plants from aquariumplants.com. They have beautiful clean plants BUT if you want something that is more rare then the wonderful people on this forum will def help. Take a look at the swap and shop section.

I will go take a pic of my 4 gal now and post it. Give me a few minutes


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

ok dont laugh. Its embarassing.

First is an old shot of the tank when i stole a whole bunch of plants from my 4gal to put into my 32.









Snail love









as of today


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