# My Paintball tank CO2 setup plan



## haril (Feb 17, 2015)

Hi folks,
After having used the Citric Acid and Baking Soda setup for a few months now and playing around with various configurations and formulae I did quite a bit of research on the web and reading up on some amazing threads here and planned my Paintball CO2 setup. The first thing I wanted was to have two stages to reduce pressure from the cylinder and I wanted a high grade needle valve with a good pressure capacity to bring the pressure down first and then use a pneumatic flow control valve to do finer controls for the bubble rate. Here is what I came up with :









1) I got the ASA ON/OFF Valve from e-Bay for $ 11 which has a gauge and a 1/8" NPT threaded hole. It came all the way from China and to my surprise arrived in 6 days flat. The quality is very good and fits perfectly on my Empire 24 Oz tank that I got on Amazon for $ 25

2) I had my eyes on this Needle valve which handles upto 6000 PSI and I wanted to play it safe with the pressure from the cylinder. It has got 1/4" NPT male threads and I got this on Amazon for around $ 11.

3) I picked up an adapter for around $ 3 from Amazon to fit the 1/4" NPT needle valve to the 1/8" NPT thread of the ASA On/Off valve.

4) I wanted a flow control valve for fine tuning the bubble rate after the needle valve brings the pressure down to a more manageable level. I got this Pneumatic flow control valve on e-Bay for $ 7, again from China.This valve has 1/4" NPT female threads and will screw on directly to the needle valve.

5) I got a 1/4" to 1/4" NPT Male adapter to attach my solenoid valve to the flow control valve for $ 2.

6) The Solenoid valve was off e-bay for $ 14 and has 1/4" NPT female threads on both ends. 

7) The final adapter is with 1/4" NPT Male threads that screws into the solenoid valve and the airline tubing starts here.

I do have a SS check valve ($5), a bubble counter ($5) and a ceramic diffuser($6) which I will reuse from my current setup.

I tried to make sure that all the threads were of the NPT standard so that it is easier to attach the various components to each other.

I am still waiting for the Pneumatic flow control valve to arrive from China before I can complete the assembly and test it. In the meanwhile all the other components attach to each other perfectly.

I will post more photos as I assemble this along with updates as I test and use this system. I hope this will help others who are thinking of going the paintball tank way.

Cheers,
Hari


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

I don't think it is safe to connect a solenoid to it. For the needle valve and flow control valve are not made to close the pressure for long periods. Besides this system last longer than the Citric Co2 and it is cheaper to refill than the Citric Co2.


Jaggedfury said:


> I leave it on 24/7. Needle valve is adjusted to 2bps.





Jaggedfury said:


> It last a good 5-6 months before refill. This is referring to 20z Paintball co2 tanks. I have two 20gallon long tanks


I am astonished that you got your ASA valve in 6 days from Ebay seller in China. It takes about a month for me to get my items. I think it is customs that is holding up the packages.

Are you still think of making an inline atomizer diffuser


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## haril (Feb 17, 2015)

Hilde said:


> I don't think it is safe to connect a solenoid to it. For the needle valve and flow control valve are not made to close the pressure for long periods. Besides this system last longer than the Citric Co2 and it is cheaper to refill than the Citric Co2.
> 
> I am astonished that you got your ASA valve in 6 days from Ebay seller in China. It takes about a month for me to get my items. I think it is customs that is holding up the packages.
> 
> Are you still think of making an inline atomizer diffuser


I disagree. The pressure in a paintball cylinder is around 800 PSI and rarely touches 1000 PSI max. The needle valve I use is rated at 6000 PSI and it will be set to bring it down to around 60-80 PSI or so. The flow control valve after this needle valve will further bring it down. This pressure is well within the limits of the Solenoid valve, so no problems there as well. The needle valve and the flow control valve are never closed fully anyway but the needle valve with this capacity should have no problem even if I decide to shut it. Can you explain why you feel it will not work?

If you notice the other paintball setups folks here have made, a lot of them are using the Watts needle valve from Home Depot which is rated at around 400 PSI and that alone is what they use, which means it is controlling upto 1000 PSI for "long periods" even when they run it 24/7. I feel my system is more safe than using just one lower capacity needle valve to regulate the whole pressure.

I got lucky I guess with the shipment of the valve from China.

I do plan to make a diffuser inline with the outlet of my cannister filter but not rightaway since I have burnt up my fishy budget for the next few months. :icon_smil


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

haril said:


> Can you explain why you feel it will not work?


The terms pressure regulator and needle valve make me feel it may not be safe to shut it off. Pressure regulator controls pressure. Needle valves control the flow rate.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

haril said:


> The needle valve I use is rated at 6000 PSI and it will be set to bring it down to around 60-80 PSI or so.


How will you know if it is brought down to 80 PSI without a gauge at the output of the needle valve. The gauge on the ASA valve will only show the output from the tank, right?


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## haril (Feb 17, 2015)

Hilde said:


> How will you know if it is brought down to 80 PSI without a gauge at the output of the needle valve. The gauge on the ASA valve will only show the output from the tank, right?


Yes I will not know without a gauge and this is just my estimate of what the pressure will be when the needle valve is barely open. Could be slightly more or less but going by what I read, the working pressure at the final output is usually 15 to 30 PSI using a ceramic diffuser.


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## haril (Feb 17, 2015)

Hilde said:


> The terms pressure regulator and needle valve make me feel it may not be safe to shut it off. Pressure regulator controls pressure. Needle valves control the flow rate.


Again, I am not using the needle valve to shut off flow but needle valves can be safely used to shut off flow if used within their pressure rating. You can read in many threads about people doing this. Even if I am using a solenoid to shut off after the needle valve and the flow control valve, the pressure is still within its rating. However, there are models of needle valves out there which may not be shut completely due to the spindle design, etc.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

haril said:


> Yes I will not know without a gauge and this is just my estimate of what the pressure will be when the needle valve is barely open. Could be slightly more or less but going by what I read, the working pressure at the final output is usually 15 to 30 PSI using a ceramic diffuser.


What did you read that makes you think the final output will be around 30 PSI?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

haril said:


> Again, I am not using the needle valve to shut off flow but needle valves can be safely used to shut off flow if used within their pressure rating. You can read in many threads about people doing this. Even if I am using a solenoid to shut off after the needle valve and the flow control valve, the pressure is still within its rating. However, there are models of needle valves out there which may not be shut completely due to the spindle design, etc.


Yeh but if 1 of the needle valves fail and the pressure gets to high for the solenoid there could be a problem, which I would not like to invision.


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## haril (Feb 17, 2015)

Hilde said:


> Yeh but if 1 of the needle valves fail and the pressure gets to high for the solenoid there could be a problem, which I would not like to invision.


I think you are worrying too much. What if your ASA on/off blows off? OR what if the regulator on a bigger CO2 system blows off? You obviously have failure points everywhere, thats why you need to get quality stuff.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

haril said:


> I think you are worrying too much. What if your ASA on/off blows off? OR what if the regulator on a bigger CO2 system blows off? You obviously have failure points everywhere, thats why you need to get quality stuff.


Perhaps!! 

Just the needle valves and solenoid are so small and they are not made to hold that amount of pressure. The ASA valve is made to hold the pressure. 

I realize something could happen and the pressure could come out of the tank. Thus I didn't want to get a tank bigger than 24oz. I will anchor it to something.


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## haril (Feb 17, 2015)

*connected all the components*

I just got my 24 Oz paintball cylinder filled up for $ 3.83 total from Sports Authority. I also rigged the setup like shown below. I used a barbed hose adapter after the Pneumatic valve instead of screwing the solenoid valve directly into it. 

My solenoid valve is anyway currently setup with the barbed hose adapters on both ends with the Citric Acid system. This will make it easier for me to do take off the solenoid valve if I feel that I can run the system just 24/7 and also it will be less weight on the components hanging on to the ASA valve.

I will do a leak test in a bucket of water and then connect it to the solenoid valve.


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## jrill (Nov 20, 2013)

Looks good. Interested to see how long the bottle fill lasts.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

haril said:


> Hi folks,
> 1) I got the ASA ON/OFF Valve which has a gauge and a 1/8" NPT threaded hole.
> 2) Needle valve which handles upto 6000 PSI and has got 1/4"


So since NPT inches is not the same as actual inches what size tubing will you be using?


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## haril (Feb 17, 2015)

Hilde said:


> So since NPT inches is not the same as actual inches what size tubing will you be using?


I am not sure I understood your question correctly but I will be using the standard airline tubing out from that barbed hose adapter pictured above.


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## haril (Feb 17, 2015)

OK, I hit the first red flag. The Chinese Pneumatic valve cannot reduce the flow rate enough even when fully closed and it leaks no matter how much teflon tape I use and tighten it. So, that will have to go. I will replace it with a "Watts" needle valve that I have been seeing a lot of folks using standalone but at least I will have the high pressure needle valve before it.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

haril said:


> I am not sure I understood your question correctly but I will be using the standard airline tubing out from that barbed hose adapter pictured above.


Tubing Watts SVEB10 from HD has 1/4O.D. x 0.170I.D (aprox 4mm). This is what is used with 1/8npt. Is the tubing you are going to use? 

I found barbs on fleebay with 1/8npt and barbs 4 to 7mm


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## haril (Feb 17, 2015)

*Version 2*

I replaced the Chinese pneumatic valve with the Watts LFA-41 needle valve ($ 5.11 @ Home Depot). I had to use a 1/4 inch female to 1/8 inch female (NPT) adapter (3 $ @ Home Depot) to attach it to the heavy duty needle valve which had a 1/4 inch NPT male thread. Used lot of teflon tape, attached it and tested for leaks and everything was good.

Thankfully the Watts needle valve can reduce the bubble rate to even a very very low rate and can even shut the flow off but fine control is very very difficult and can be a pain to find the sweet spot. One small nudge this side or that side and the flow is crazy. That said I am not going to use it with the solenoid valve and just run it 24/7 @ 1.5 bps. I connected it to the bubble counter and diffuser and everything looks fine and dandy.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

haril said:


> OK, I hit the first red flag. The Chinese Pneumatic valve cannot reduce the flow rate enough even when fully closed and it leaks no matter how much teflon tape I use and tighten it. So, that will have to go.


Since you bought it on Ebay you might be able to return it for a refund. Just contact the seller and see if he will work with you.


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## haril (Feb 17, 2015)

Hilde said:


> Since you bought it on Ebay you might be able to return it for a refund. Just contact the seller and see if he will work with you.


hmmm, I thought about that, but its pretty beatup after I screwed it on and unscrewed it again. It was very tight so it has a lot of marks on it.

I checked the setup today morning and everything seems to be working fine so far.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

haril said:


> I replaced the Chinese pneumatic valve with the Watts LFA-41 needle valve ($ 5.11 @ Home Depot). I had to use a 1/4 inch female to 1/8 inch female (NPT) adapter (3 $ @ Home Depot)


I am having trouble finding that adapter. One I got from HD says 1/4 in FIP x 1/8 in FIP. The 1/8 side fits but the 1/4 sides does not. It is LFA-734. What is the number on your adapter?


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## haril (Feb 17, 2015)

Hilde said:


> I am having trouble finding that adapter. One I got from HD says 1/4 in FIP x 1/8 in FIP. The 1/8 side fits but the 1/4 sides does not. It is LFA-734. What is the number on your adapter?


Yes It is the LFA-734. I cant find it on Home Depot online but here it is at Lowes:

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=88489-104-LFA734

What are you fitting into the 1/4" side? I can say after my experience that the adapter is of a good quality and its most probable that the threads of whatever you are trying to screw into the adapter is of a lower quality. I had a similar issue when trying to screw the barbed hose adpater into the chinese pneumatic valve.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

haril said:


> What are you fitting into the 1/4" side?


Swagelok B-1VS4 ¼ tube fitting. It just slides over the threads.


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## haril (Feb 17, 2015)

Hilde said:


> Swagelok B-1VS4 ¼ tube fitting. It just slides over the threads.


I dont think that will screw into a 1/4 " NPT female. That needle valve uses 1/4 inch tubing and the threads for the compression nut will be different from NPT.
The needle valve you mentioned is meant to be used with tubing and not to be screwed into a 1/4 inch NPT adapter


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

haril said:


> I dont think that will screw into a 1/4 " NPT female. That needle valve uses 1/4 inch tubing and the threads for the compression nut will be different from NPT.
> The needle valve you mentioned is meant to be used with tubing and not to be screwed into a 1/4 inch NPT adapter


I was thinking of connecting them with tubing and barbs but I am not certain if that is safe. Guess I have to buy another needle valve. So what is the numbers on your needle valve that you bought on fleebay?

I found 1 on fleebay for about $18. Will the 1 in pic.(1/4npt, 6000PSI) work? Was the 1 Amazon cheaper?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Well calculating your cost on the 1st post you spent $64. That is less than the mini regulators, U.P. Aqua and Aquateck. They don't get many good reviews thus I think this setup will last longer.


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## haril (Feb 17, 2015)

*List of items*

To make it easier, here is the list of items I ended up using :

1) Empire-Paintball-24oz-CO2-Tank


2) ASA On Off Valve


3) Eaton Weatherhead 3200X4X2 Brass CA360 Fitting, Adapter, 1/4" NPT Female x 1/8" NPT Male


4) Heavy duty Needle Valve


5) Watts 1/4-in x 1/8-in Brass adapter

6) 1/4 in. x 1/8 in. Lead-Free Brass Compression x MPT Angle Needle Valve


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

That is a great list!! Some of the items are a little cheaper on fleebay and don't have a shipping cost. Buying the parts you listed in fleebay I saved $11. Not much but can buy many more things for my aquariums. Can always buy more for them. 

I bought an ASA valve without the gauge for read that gauges can be bought cheeply. The only gauge I found was $100. Thus got the ASA valve with the gauge as you have. Thought I could take the gauge off and use it on my other ASA valve. Even though it screwed in I can't budge it.


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## haril (Feb 17, 2015)

Its been almost 2 months now @ 1 bps 24 hours a day and it is still going strong. I haven't had to make any adjustments whatsoever and the pressure dial doesn't seem to have gone much lower than the 1000 PSI I started off with. Definitely worth having this system than the CitricAcid Baking soda system.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Was wonder when you put it in the bucket did you have a needle valve open slightly? If yes both?


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Two needle valves in series are not a good way to setting a stable CO2 bubble rate. The flow rate we us is so minute that even a very good, low flow needle valve can be hard to adjust. The first needle valve in that circuit will be working at the same tiny flow rate as the second needle valve, probably not dropping the pressure at all. A second possible problem is the stem packing leakage. It isn't easy to seal CO2 so it doesn't leak at all, and even harder with a dynamic seal like on the valve stem. A pressure regulator and one low flow needle valve is a much, much better option.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Well haril says his is stable. So haril how did you get it stabilized. Which needle valve did you open 1st?


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## dzega (Apr 22, 2013)

so much trouble for not using pressure regulator which costs like 20$...


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## haril (Feb 17, 2015)

Hilde said:


> Well haril says his is stable. So haril how did you get it stabilized. Which needle valve did you open 1st?


Mine has been very stable but yes, a pressure regulator and one needle valve would be a better option than two needle valves in serial.

I opened the the cheaper Watts needle valve first and then adjusted it for the final bubble rate after closing in on the heavier needle valve.

Bump:


dzega said:


> so much trouble for not using pressure regulator which costs like 20$...


Can you recommend one for 20$ or under? I can look at replacing one of the needle valves with this provided the threading is the same 1/4 inch NPT. But trust me it wasnt any trouble setting this up at al

Bump:


Hilde said:


> Was wonder when you put it in the bucket did you have a needle valve open slightly? If yes both?


you have to have everything shut off and observe for leaks. Thats the whole idea and you shouldn't have anything open.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

haril said:


> I opened the the cheaper Watts needle valve first and then adjusted it for the final bubble rate after closing in on the heavier needle valve.
> 
> Bump:
> 
> ...


So 1st the watts needle valve then 2nd the heavy duty needle valve and then the watts needle valve. Or was it back and forth a few times?

All the pressure regulators I have seen were over $50. 

Jaggedfurry had his needle valve slightly opened, which did not make sense to me. Thanks for clarifying that.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Thinking of mounting the paintball tank horizontal on the wall. I wonder how it will put to much pressure on the needle of the tank? Any thoughts anybody?


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## haril (Feb 17, 2015)

Hilde said:


> Thinking of mounting the paintball tank horizontal on the wall. I wonder how it will put to much pressure on the needle of the tank? Any thoughts anybody?


I dont think that should make any difference to the pressure at all.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Just wondering how the co2 system is doing?


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## Traste (May 15, 2016)

Hi,
I am by no means any expert but i have been through the same experiments as i see done here and eventually given up on not using a regulator.
First of all, Co2 tanks should always stand in an upright position, the gas is fluid inside the tank - think of opening a soda bottle while holding it in a horizontal orientation - I am not 100% sure what risks there are, but at least the Co2 empties faster than in a vertical position.
Secondly, Co2 is corrosive, using unprotected brass is not a good idea, it will corrode and you will get leaks at a minimum, and possibly weakening in the connections after longer time.
Thirdly, the solenoid should preferably be attached securely as early as possible in the flow to avoid unnecessary pressure in joints that may leak. When the solenoid is closed, the pressure in the whole system prior to the solenoid will - without a regulator - build up to the same pressure as in the bottle ie. about 800-900psi no matter how much is left in the tank, since as long as there is a path for the gas to travel, it will do so to reach eqilibrium.

My biggest concern is not really how well it works, it is what happens if something goes wrong? With kids in the house, i am very wary of high pressure contraptions that may break if knocked over or hit by something.
Obviously that is only my assessment that applies to me, your may vary.

Currently my venture to get Co2 in my tank on the cheap is on hold, but i did buy one of the cheap small toy sized regulators, and from initial tests, it seems to do the job at least, it keeps the psi on the outflow as desired and likewise on the inflow. I am thinking of setting it up in the basement for a few months and leave it to run there where it is less likely to cause any damage if something happens. I am using soda(stream type) tank, but it is pretty much the same as the paintball type.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Traste said:


> My biggest concern is not really how well it works, it is what happens if something goes wrong? With kids in the house, i am very wary of high pressure contraptions that may break if knocked over or hit by something.
> 
> Obviously that is only my assessment that applies to me, your may vary.


So you basically stopped using it because of little children?


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## spore (May 7, 2016)

Just wanted to throw a couple things in here, since this thread has been a little bit of a cringe fest(sorry if that sounds harsh). 

1. Running two needle valves inline will not reduce output pressure. The first needle valve will only slightly slow the equalization of pressure between the two valves. If atmospheric pressure changes, the bottle starts running low, it heats up or drastically cools in your house, that equalization rate will definitely not remain constant.

2. Definitely do NOT attempt to run a solenoid on a setup like this unless it is rated at ~1000PSI. Again.. the needle valves do nothing to lower working pressure so the solenoid plunger and seat will be taking full bottle pressure when it is in a closed state. This could potentially be a minor or pretty major failure. 

3. Please do NOT attempt to run a CO2 bottle horizontally unless you definitely want a component failure from liquid CO2. Cheap needle valves from Homie D's aren't meant to be used for CO2 in the first place.. the seals might hold up for a while against CO2 in a gaseous state(so long as no moisture gets back in the valve), but are no match for the corrosive power of CO2 in a liquid state.


If you want to run pressurized CO2 on the cheap with paintball canisters, etc, please just buy an actual paintball regulator or cheap beverage regulator and a paintball adapter. You are going to be far more successful on the long term, and you won't have to tinker with it to keep it stable. BBA/other algae due to flow instability, fauna death because of over gassing, leakage, component failure, etc.. It may seem economical when you first build it, but down the road the math will eventually not be on your side.
Try a search for "interstate pneumatics regulator" on a popular auction site.. they are tiny, have the ability to actually regulate working pressure, and are already set up to accept a paintball tank. They can be had for $60 shipped if you look close. Then you can put whatever NV and solenoid your heart desires without fear of the aquariopocalypse.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

spore said:


> Try a search for "interstate pneumatics regulator"


Would I need an adapter? I am not certain How I would fit the output with it for I don't see any outputs on it. Perhaps I can figure it out when my headache goes away.

Any suggestions?

I thought of getting the mini aquateck regulator but the needle I see is 1 had used on a DIY setup and I was not happy with it. 

Any experience with a single stage regulator?


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## spore (May 7, 2016)

It has the standard 1/4 MPT output that any other regulator has. If I were going to build a paintball regulator with this, I'd use a Fabco NV55 on whatever solenoid you want (clippard mouse valve would be an appropriate size). The aquatek regulator will probably cost you about the same amount, or maybe less than building one with one of the interstate pneumatics regs. Downside of the aquatek is that they do not have adjustable working pressure, and I've read numerous threads where people had solenoid failures. I can direct you to some vendors(that I am not affiliated with, but have used in the past), but I don't really feel like it's appropriate on the open forum.

It really comes down to you - 
Do you value the ability to be able to control and change every aspect of your setup, and want a high quality reg that will last(perhaps at the expense of finding all the right reducers, low flow metering valves, etc)? 
Go with the interstate reg.

Do you want something that just works, and are willing to accept any possible quirks in exchange for no legwork and possibly a little cheaper? 
Go with an aquatek, co2art, archaea(these are actually pretty rad for the price), or other fleabay ready made regs.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

I am leading towards getting a regulator. For I am scared to use this setup. I have been thinking any disaster could be controlled by anchoring it to the wall. Yet I haven't done it and has been a year that I have had the parts. I am just too scared to do it.

Bump:


spore said:


> Downside of the aquatek is that they do not have adjustable working pressure, and I've read numerous threads where people had solenoid failures.


I also read the aquatek is highly highly irregular. Then needle valve is week too.


spore said:


> I can direct you to some vendors(that I am not affiliated with, but have used in the past), but I don't really feel like it's appropriate on the open forum.


Could you email the vendors? Any near Georgia?
What about a single stage regulator?


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