# Fin damage Angel fish



## jujiro (Jun 13, 2012)

One of my angelfish has some nasty damage to his dorsal fin. I think it was one of his tank mates that nipped him most likely one of the blackskirt tetras . What's really worrying me is that there seems to also be some kind of white film around the base of his fin as well. 

Only managed to get two clear shots because he kept moving around, but here you can see what I was trying to describe. Is this just fin rot or something else that He has as well.


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

I'd say that's more than just fin rot. I'd keep the temperature at no less than 78 and add some aquarium salt (the stuff that's meant for freshwater...its just a general sort of thing) and make sure you keep your water super extra clean
how's the fish acting otherwise? eating okay and swiming okay? I think another thing I would do in this situation is mix some anti-bacterial medication in with the food I would be feeding.


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## shrimpNewbie (May 6, 2011)

Add Epsom salt to your tank for a while a lot less damaging to the tank in fact it's good for your plants and makes fish a little more comfortable


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

I see no serious fin nipping. I would say bacterial or fungal. Is the red in the eye normal for this fish or signs of problems? If you have one available a quarantine tank would be good. A good quiet location where the fish can rest without stress and you can keep the water good is often the best medicine.


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## jujiro (Jun 13, 2012)

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll give the aquarium salt a try, happened to have some on hand , but i'll have to put him in a different tank. I have 5 cory-cats hiding in that tank and i don't think they like salt .

As for normal behavior, I'm not exactly sure since I just got him yesterday. Though he seems withdrawn and just hangs in a corner for the majority of the time.


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## jujiro (Jun 13, 2012)

PlantedRich said:


> I see no serious fin nipping. I would say bacterial or fungal. Is the red in the eye normal for this fish or signs of problems? If you have one available a quarantine tank would be good. A good quiet location where the fish can rest without stress and you can keep the water good is often the best medicine.


Yea I just moved him to one. The red in his eye was there when I got him, his fin was full and complete last night before i went to bed, about .5 to 1 inch longer than it is in the picture. 

I think it might have been one of the 9 blackskirt tetras that used to be in the tank with them. Have them in a holding tank for now since they seem to aggressive, always fighting with each other.


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## shrimpNewbie (May 6, 2011)

Epsom is less damaging and may help more it's still a salt. And can be used in the main tank


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

I'd go with epsom as well
I thought though that epsom was usually used for bloat? I'll say this though, I've been a fishkeeper longer than a plant keeper and I used to use a different forum for just fishkeeping so what might be good for fish might not be so great for plants


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Maybe what I am seeing as the problem is just lighting. The grey coloring on the body along the dorsal fin is what I see as the problem. Is it there or just due to tank lighting? I see some fin loss but the grey is what I would fix as the main problem.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Could the fish hiding from harassment have been burnt by the heater?

In the photos I can see fin rays on the tail. If the fish had been kept in poor conditions prior to the OP getting it fin rays are the first to fail.

Looonnnggg time ago but I have seen a fish burnt hiding behind a heater when others paired and went crazy attacking everyone else.


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## Achilles (Jul 31, 2012)

I have bred angels for the past 2 years and in my experience angels and tetras don't mix well. the tetras will pick apart thier fins. from the picture there it does look like it got a pretty good beating thru the night. Melafix will help with any bacterial infection and assist in the regeneration fo the damaged fin. Not sure though on how it affects plants, wouldnt' see it really causing any issues though as its pretty much just tea tree extract.


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## jujiro (Jun 13, 2012)

PlantedRich said:


> Maybe what I am seeing as the problem is just lighting. The grey coloring on the body along the dorsal fin is what I see as the problem. Is it there or just due to tank lighting? I see some fin loss but the grey is what I would fix as the main problem.


Yea that grey film like area wasn't there before his fin got damaged . Now it's actually spreading further than it was in that picture. Been treating him with Maracyn


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## jujiro (Jun 13, 2012)

Achilles said:


> I have bred angels for the past 2 years and in my experience angels and tetras don't mix well. the tetras will pick apart thier fins. from the picture there it does look like it got a pretty good beating thru the night. Melafix will help with any bacterial infection and assist in the regeneration fo the damaged fin. Not sure though on how it affects plants, wouldnt' see it really causing any issues though as its pretty much just tea tree extract.


I didn't realize that Black-skirts were potentially one of the more aggressive tetras . Even now in their isolated tank they are constantly chasing each other.
That's what I get from listening to the guys from the LFS. You think Melafix alone would be enough to help him along ? .


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## Achilles (Jul 31, 2012)

jujiro said:


> I didn't realize that Black-skirts were potentially one of the more aggressive tetras . Even now in their isolated tank they are constantly chasing each other.
> That's what I get from listening to the guys from the LFS. You think Melafix alone would be enough to help him along ? .


I took some advice from a lfs and added severums with my angels. the severums pretty much destroyed my tank killing all but 2 angels. I have one left and used melafix to help the damaged fins. Its doing great. grew back in a matter of a couple weeks with regular water changes. now wasn't as damaged as this ones dorsal is but will definitly help. And it helps prevent bacterial infections in the exposed area. so long as the fish seems active and is swimming around you should be good. Angels are very sensitive fish and you can really tell when they arent' happy. They will usually go into seclusion in the tank or will swim at the top with thier mouth pointing towards the sufaced if they are really stressed. If the fish is not doing this then it should do fine. Just keep it away from the tetras. Tetras are cool fish but tend to always be nippers.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

If the area is getting larger with the CAT FOOD removed from the tank then tank tea extract won't help. Nothing but clean water and more clean water is the best answer to fin damage. But if the 'grey' coverage is getting larger fin damage is the least of it. Is it a filmed, fuzzy or milky haze like coating 'on' the fish in appearance today or dull due to removal of the slime coat?

If you start seeing reddish areas or lines along the base of the fins then Septicemia is taking hold and extremely hard to cure.


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## Achilles (Jul 31, 2012)

wkndracer said:


> If the area is getting larger with the CAT FOOD removed from the tank then tank tea extract won't help. Nothing but clean water and more clean water is the best answer to fin damage. But if the 'grey' coverage is getting larger fin damage is the least of it. Is it a filmed, fuzzy or milky haze like coating 'on' the fish in appearance today or dull due to removal of the slime coat?
> 
> If you start seeing reddish areas or lines along the base of the fins then Septicemia is taking hold and extremely hard to cure.


 
Did I miss something here?! Where did catfood come in?


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Achilles said:


> Did I miss something here?! Where did catfood come in?


anything in this house that harms an angelfish would be promptly fed to the neighbors cat. (without hesitation or regret)


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## jujiro (Jun 13, 2012)

wkndracer said:


> If the area is getting larger with the CAT FOOD removed from the tank then tank tea extract won't help. Nothing but clean water and more clean water is the best answer to fin damage. But if the 'grey' coverage is getting larger fin damage is the least of it. Is it a filmed, fuzzy or milky haze like coating 'on' the fish in appearance today or dull due to removal of the slime coat?
> 
> If you start seeing reddish areas or lines along the base of the fins then Septicemia is taking hold and extremely hard to cure.


He swims around a little bit if I go up to the tank , but mostly he's just hovering about mid tank height with his nose slightly tilted up .
It looks dull and rough today, maybe it's his slime coat that's peeling off . I can't see a ring around his dorsal fin. I think it's his slime coating that's coming off since I can see the different area's of dull/ shiny textures on him from that .


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Staying off the bottom and out of the corners is great news!

OK, from this thread you just brought the fish home and background information is a blind spot.

Whats in the tank with it now after moving the other,,,, nasty fish?

You mentioned already starting a treatment with antibiotic so if you have it that's your choice, either hold on to it or continue through with treatment.
Damage is one thing and a hazy gel or fuzzy appearance is totally different.
Sounds like he looks clean just bruised up really bad. 
The 40B looks pretty clean in the pics posted in another thread (is this the tank?) just keeping it that way (clean) is the best way to help the fish right now. Watch, feed light meals that don't leave wasted food floating around and watch some more. I'm not a water change junkie and in fact most of my systems are on limited change schedules but with damaged fish a clean water column helps a bunch. Don't get worried if it doesn't eat for a few days either as long as it's semi active. We feed WAY more than nature provides. 

(imo) this is a best guess start and if no external fungus is seen right now standard doses of Melafix won't hurt the fish just keep doses at recommended amounts and do several good water changes of 40% each week. Are you on a well or centralized treated water?

Couple questions for ya here and gotta say I go to extremes* not* to deal with sick fish. Quarantine, quality foods, selecting carefully the sources for new fish. If things get weird TAFF II has a bunch of really nice upper end angelfish breeders as members and several are happy to help hobbyists.

hope he heals up!


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## jujiro (Jun 13, 2012)

Right now I have it in a 10 gallon tank by itself that I borrowed from my betta. Wasn't sure what/if he had anything and didn't want to risk loosing all of the fish. Think it would be safe to put him back in ? or should I just keep in quarantined until he start's looking better ? 

In the 40B his other tank mates were 4 angels, 2 plecos (bristlenose), 2 platies and 5 cory cats ( I always forget about them. )

Yea I did post it a few weeks ago . Wow , so just doing a 40 percent water change and keeping everything clean should be enough to fix his current symptoms ? Shouldn't have to do much extra then since I normally do a water change weekly anyways .=D

Ohh yea and I'm on well water .

Thanks for all the help you've been giving me it's reassuring to get some guidance since I'm still new to this hobby :icon_smil


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

In a 10g tank water quality can shift pretty fast. I would change 1/2 the water everyday, matched on the temp and changed. The only isolated 10g tank I use here has a massive sponge filter to compensate for the lack of volume.

As long as things stay the same meaning no color change at the base of the fins, no fuzz or slimy looking crap in the wound area, no cornering or grounding then yes things are great and the fish will heal. All this happening overnight by what you posted here on the forum makes for a really drastic shift. Normally things don't happen that fast. Kept clean he should heal. If he starts shedding more slime coat or the appearance worsens then the treatment needs to change. A single fish of whatever value you place on it now you will spend a bunch of money trying to fix it yet be blind to what really needs to be addressed unless this is only wounding damage from the the aggressive blackskirt's. If you see fungus develop then a salt bath or hydrogen peroxide treatment or even more off the self options going forward to combat whatever is damaging the fish. Right now treat it as wounds and keep it clean allowing for it to heal. Quiet tank, stable temperature, good O2 supply and clean water are all in a common sense approach. 

Based on whats posted so far what is there as a secondary symptom to treat?

On the other side of this sadly if the fish did carry any bad nastiness without doing any kind of entry quarantine it's in every tank the fish has been in.
Once you are beyond simply setting up a new tank and start investing in plants and critters entry quarantine is the best protection of that effort and cash.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

I have a different view on this. I don't think it is an overnight fin nipping but a longer term disease. I don't see tetras coming at an angelfish from above and certainly not just on one fin. The other fins look reasonable from the pictures. 
I think it is more likely a disease moving slowly down over the fish body and the fins may have just gotten to the point of breaking off to be noticed. A lack of info on what the conditions were before you got the fish is leaving you guessing. 
I have a real thing about keeping the fish healthy to start. My reason for this is the low number of fish diseases which I have solved over the years. I have thrown so much medicine in tanks to cure fish that die anyway that I no longer go that way. I keep them healthy but if for some reason I swap into something or it shows anyway, I go from Melafix/Pimafix treatment to dead in a hurry. I have found it is too easy to throw more money into a lost cause than the fish is worth. 
I think this may be one of those cases but wish you well. You may be lucky.


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## jujiro (Jun 13, 2012)

kk I'll keep that in mind if things keep progressing.Yea I've been needing to setup a holding tank for new fish. Always been lucky before and never had to deal with any problem fish .

I'm not to worried about the 10 gallon since i just threw some excess plants trimming in there for the betta to lay on/hide under .But the 40 gallon worries me . I guess for now I'll just hope it was from being nipped until I"m certain there's anything to worry about. Although I have noticed the 2 of my other angels haven't really been spreading out their dorsal fins.


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## jujiro (Jun 13, 2012)

PlantedRich said:


> I have a different view on this. I don't think it is an overnight fin nipping but a longer term disease. I don't see tetras coming at an angelfish from above and certainly not just on one fin. The other fins look reasonable from the pictures.
> I think it is more likely a disease moving slowly down over the fish body and the fins may have just gotten to the point of breaking off to be noticed. A lack of info on what the conditions were before you got the fish is leaving you guessing.
> I have a real thing about keeping the fish healthy to start. My reason for this is the low number of fish diseases which I have solved over the years. I have thrown so much medicine in tanks to cure fish that die anyway that I no longer go that way. I keep them healthy but if for some reason I swap into something or it shows anyway, I go from Melafix/Pimafix treatment to dead in a hurry. I have found it is too easy to throw more money into a lost cause than the fish is worth.
> I think this may be one of those cases but wish you well. You may be lucky.



That's a scary thought I didn't really think about , But is it common for a disease other than tail/fin rot to target the fins first and spread out from there ?.

I didn't notice anything wrong with his fin when I got him. Actually I got him because I liked the pattern on his fins as well as his coloration. Well I guess this will be a learning experience for me . All new fish in a holding tank for evaluation. What's a good amount of time to be sure that new incoming fish don't have anything ?


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## Stevoh (Jun 29, 2012)

Woah. Tetras are aggressive towards Angels? I thought it was the other way around haha. I have 17 Cardinal Tetras with 2 juvie black Angels. Everything seems ok.

My Angels bottom fins have been nipped by my CPOs, but they are fine and still act like they did with their previously glorious bottom fin. No rot, no infections.

Curious how your's fairs. Please keep us informed. Anymore pics?


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## jujiro (Jun 13, 2012)

Stevoh said:


> Woah. Tetras are aggressive towards Angels? I thought it was the other way around haha. I have 17 Cardinal Tetras with 2 juvie black Angels. Everything seems ok.
> 
> My Angels bottom fins have been nipped by my CPOs, but they are fine and still act like they did with their previously glorious bottom fin. No rot, no infections.
> 
> Curious how your's fairs. Please keep us informed. Anymore pics?


Yea well i think that's mainly concerning the adult angels, mine are still small. The tetras bullied all of them except for my Koi angel whose a bit bigger than the rest. About 2.5-3 inches. 

I'll try to get some more pictures up tomorrow, need to get some more batteries for my camera. So far he's still moving around the tank a bit , not as lively as I would like to see but I guess any movement is better than none.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

PlantedRich said:


> I have a different view on this. I don't think it is an overnight fin nipping but a longer term disease. I don't see tetras coming at an angelfish from above and certainly not just on one fin. The other fins look reasonable from the pictures.
> I think it is more likely a disease moving slowly down over the fish body and the fins may have just gotten to the point of breaking off to be noticed. A lack of info on what the conditions were before you got the fish is leaving you guessing.
> I have a real thing about keeping the fish healthy to start. My reason for this is the low number of fish diseases which I have solved over the years. I have thrown so much medicine in tanks to cure fish that die anyway that I no longer go that way. I keep them healthy but if for some reason I swap into something or it shows anyway, I go from Melafix/Pimafix treatment to dead in a hurry. I have found it is too easy to throw more money into a lost cause than the fish is worth.
> I think this may be one of those cases but wish you well. You may be lucky.


I don't see us in disagreement on a single point made in this post. 
I even mentioned the tail rays still being in place.

*NEVER* posted any claims of certainty regarding whats wrong here. My comments (like every other post here) are based only on the information posted in the threads so far. Qualified each opinion offered with reminders of that fact and tried not to be sounding panic alarms while still voicing concerns over what the potential is for further problems answering the OP's questions with (imo) fairly balanced options.

Every concern you expressed was already mentioned from no history on the fish and a lack of proper quarantine to the expense of blindly treating secondary symptoms with often limited results. Sadly I witnessed the second mini angel plague last year that wiped out several private hatcheries and thought of those folks reading this thread. Fish shed slime coat and died in hours wiping out whole systems in several states with nobody finding a cure for any of it. What the OP posted didn't have all that as what he see's looking first hand at the tank. That's the only cycle of infections I have ever seen happen this fast. What he posted was the effect happened overnight so guessing what?? 8-10hrs max? 


jujiro said:


> That's a scary thought I didn't really think about , But is it common for a disease other than tail/fin rot to target the fins first and spread out from there ?.
> 
> I didn't notice anything wrong with his fin when I got him. Actually I got him because I liked the pattern on his fins as well as his coloration. Well I guess this will be a learning experience for me . All new fish in a holding tank for evaluation. What's a good amount of time to be sure that new incoming fish don't have anything ?


Acute external eruptions (secondary symptom) triggered by internal problems can be anywhere on a fish but to happen with no prior behavior change or warnings is odd in the extreme. Sadly I have experienced this oddness three times. That why I whine about quarantine more than any other tanking topic.

Meaninful quarantine starts at 30 days. 
You might find this a good read or a waste of time but it's first hand events that prompted my current quarantine methods that I shared here;
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=138137

again, wishing luck with your fish :fish:


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

I feel you are offended by my views but I see no reason for that. We all will not have the same views. If only one solution or view is offered there will be less options for the person with the problem to look over and see if they fit. You see one thing, while I see another should not be a problem. One may be right and one may be wrong but with fish disease diagnosed from pictures alone, there is a good chance we are both wrong. The guy with the fish in the tank can see much more than anybody looking at pictures. 

When it is mentioned that tetras may be agressive, it does not mean all tetras will be the same. Neon tetras are a lot different than black skirt tetras, for example. Even among a group of five, some may nip fins while other do not. Nips and damaged fins can often be a spot where other diseases may start. Without seeing the fins and knowing some history, it is a pretty shaky time to diagnose disease.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

PlantedRich said:


> I have a different view on this.





PlantedRich said:


> I feel you are offended by my views but I see no reason for that. We all will not have the same views.


Now I'm even more confused!
Reading the posts I see agreement not dispute,,
Where exactly do we disagree?


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## jujiro (Jun 13, 2012)

Thanks for everybody who pitched in to help.

Today I woke up to find him pinned to the intake of the filter, was struggling to break himself free from it so I turned it off and he barely had enough energy to float/swim around and eventually ended up laying on the ground and died shortly after.

Contacted the LFS and sounds like they may work with me on this although now I'm wondering if this was just from nipping abuse or a more serious disease/infection guess i'll just have to watch the rest of the tank and hope for the best.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

sorry you lost the fish and hope that's the end of it


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

Personally I doubt it was just from the nipping, I keep my angels a bunch of very nippy fish large cichlids and I've never had an issue like this. the only thing I've seen that resembled this in my experience was when my tank had a case of ich going on


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

The OP thought it was damage and following the exchanges of the thread nothing pointed to a smoking gun after that. (no way to know) What can you treat when the cause is not known? Nothing could have been done to save that fish with only 24hrs. (imo). What happened was such a short time after getting the fish home, it was doomed before he got it. 

Just hoping it ends with that loss.


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## jujiro (Jun 13, 2012)

Yea I don't think it was just fin damage either. Just got back from the LFS and they looked over the dead body.( froze it so they could inspect it . ) They didn't see any signs of disease and confirmed that it was it's slime coat that was peeling off .

They said recently they had gotten a few bad batches on only the larger angels but the smaller ones were fairing better . I have another angel in QT right now, fins still in good shape , but it has a spot where it's slime coat is missing . It was the one that I got along with the now deceased angel. 

He may have a chance as he was a lot more active than the other one ever was . 

I hope this doesn't turn into one very costly lesson as I do have one Koi angel and a silver striped one in there that I've grown attached to . Both are looking healthy for now.


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