# Best water flow practices in heavily planted discus tank?



## Solid (Jul 19, 2009)

Your 3 G6 canisters should create a good amount of flow even for a tank that size. However the Vortech power head is awesome, it would be a bit of an overkill. A more cost effective option might be buy koralia powerheads. You could even buy 2 and put them in places that need more flow. Or buy 2 of the smaller vortech ones.
Those larger powerheads 1,000 gph+ are more designed for reef aquariums. Discus dont like living in a high flow aquarium.


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## Franzi (Dec 7, 2009)

I agree with Solid. I'm assuming those filters have spraybars so you can line them up at water level to create even flow. Your current plant lineup isn't too demanding and should do fine without the extra current which will probably only upset the discus.

That is a hell of a setup for a self proclaimed "newbie." Good luck!!!


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## dan woods (Oct 21, 2010)

Thanks for the input guys. I started with 2 g6 filters but the one with the in line CO2 reactor has reduced flow by 50% or so. I added the 3rd filter in hopes to get tank flow up a bit. I read somewhere that a discus tank should turn the tank contents about 7 to 10 times an hour and with the reduced flow on the 2nd filter with inline CO2, I needed the 3rd to get there. I am guessing about 350 GHP on a G6 unrestricted with a typical head height. So if that is all close to true, 3 sounded about right for filtration. I do not want to over stimulate water flow for the discus but want to make sure I have no dead spots as well. Based on your feedback, I think I will start with 1 VorTech MP10 ES and see how that does in one corner. I am getting much startup info from a very large LFS (Preuss Animal House about 60 miles away) they are setting up a discus planted tank in a 175 bow in the store. It looks great so far and has what I might consider on the high end of flow for a discus tank. They have a couple big power heads in the tank but I thought I might try the VorTech because it has the power cord on the outside of the tank and has a smaller footprint in the tank. The LFS is not making the same rookie mistakes I am making by my lack of patience. They do not have the discus in their tank yet (just the dither fish) while I do. I now know I should have quarantined all dither fish prior to introduction into the main tank with my discus (don't ask, you already know). So when I can afford it, I will purchase a proper quarantine tank for my display tank. Does this sound like a symptom of MTS? I hear there is no cure for this if I catch it. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. -Dan


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## dan woods (Oct 21, 2010)

Oh, the list of fish in the tank is a little short, I also have; 12 Crossocheilus siamensis and
5 Blue Rams in the tank.


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## Solid (Jul 19, 2009)

The Vortech are awesome for just the reasons you mentioned. Ive never used one, but I've read on alot of reef forums they are the cream of the crop. They are also very adjustable so you can adjust their flow which might work for you.
I might also try asking over on http://www.simplydiscus.com/forum/ if they think the flow is too much. I still consider myself a newbie at discus (had them about 7 months).

Either way it sounds like your doing things the right way and have a pretty nice set-up! And like i said in the Fluval pimp club thread, post some pictures for us to drool at. =D


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## SpankyMR2 (Nov 11, 2010)

Dan,

The Simply Discus forum is great. I started a planted discus tank a few months ago and have learned a lot from them. Good luck and enjoy.
Patti


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## timwag2001 (Jul 3, 2009)

i was just gonna refer you to simply discus as well. i was too slow though


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## dan woods (Oct 21, 2010)

Thanks for the heads up on simply discus. As I said earlier, I made a big rookie mistake by not quarantining fish prior to introduction into the display tank. As a result I am treating the whole tank for ick (ick-attack and 88 degrees). I am 6 days into the treatment and a pair of discus decided to lay eggs yesterday. Not sure if it is a male/female pair but there was a 3 day/3 way squabble prior to laying eggs over whick 2 would be an item. I have tried to attach a pic.


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## dan woods (Oct 21, 2010)

will that did not work. try this link: http://picasaweb.google.com/105523372952868185919/100EOS5D#5545339819597011106


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## Solid (Jul 19, 2009)

:drool: Nice fish! Egg laying is usually a sign of happy discus. 
Also I wouldn't worry too much about a minor Ich infection, in my experience it has gone away after a week or so with just increased water temperature and a bit of aquarium salt. Im sure your Ich medication will do the job too.


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## dan woods (Oct 21, 2010)

Solid,
Is it ok to add salt for medication to a planted tank without plant stress? If so, how much and what kind?


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## Solid (Jul 19, 2009)

It might stress out the plants but most plants can take it for a week or two. Some people say you can use sea salt or kosher salt, but i prefer the (better safe than sorry) "aquarium salt" sold at my LFS. The recommended dosage to treat ich is 2-3 tablespoons per 5 gallons of water. I tend to lean towards the safe side and use a bit less. If i were you I would be patient and wait to see if the temp+medication you are already using works. If your fish are happy, and I suspect they are, it should be gone in a week or two.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I'd buy a wet dry and toss the canisters.

I've done enough O2 testing to tell folks that the wet/drys are certainly the way to go on larger tanks where fish are of primary importance.
I have consistently higher DO levels at every time of day with the wet/drys.

400-1000gph for the wet/dry is plenty and a wide range.
Additional flow can be added using small powerheads, wavemakers etc in the plants.

Leave the open areas where you want them to spend most of the time slightly still, but......they do come from rivers, and the flows change throughout the year, not just Bubba the collector is there during and dry season only. They should/will eat better and be more frisky if O2 is tracked and wet/drys are used, good current etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Solid said:


> :drool: Nice fish! Egg laying is usually a sign of happy discus.
> Also I wouldn't worry too much about a minor Ich infection, in my experience it has gone away after a week or so with just increased water temperature and a bit of aquarium salt. Im sure your Ich medication will do the job too.


Temp for a bit at 88 and malachite green should do the trick, leave out the salt.
Should be able to drop it back to 84 or so, they should breed consistently at that temp. 


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Solid (Jul 19, 2009)

Tom, if you put a wet/dry, what would you recommend for the Co2? Wouldn't off gassing be an issue? 

Dan, My best advice to you is listen to Tom Barr. He really is one of the most knowledgeable and expierenced people in planted tanks.


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## dan woods (Oct 21, 2010)

Thanks for all the great input guys, I am new to this and trying to be a sponge for good information. Today marks the end of the first week of medication treatments and it looks like the last visible signs should be gone tonight when I get out of work. I will continue to dose meds for 3 more days and then drop the temp to 84/85 plug the UV back in, add the purigen and activated charcoal in the filters and watch the water go back to crystal clear. I really don't like the slight cloudy look the meds add to the water. I can see that Discus are going to be very addictive. Wish a 120 could house more than 10 happy Discus without overcrowding. I feel a slight case of "multiple tank syndrome" in the back of my throat. I will try a baby aspirin and see if it goes away... I purchased all the hardware to make it all about the plants, I really want to try my luck at slow growing delicate plants but I think it is going to be all about the Discus for this tank.


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## dan woods (Oct 21, 2010)

To tell the truth, 2 days ago I felt the breathing was a bit labored with the Discus so I turned on an air pump 24/7 and reduced the PH controller to trigger and hold the PH between 7.0 and 6.8 (from 6.8 to 6.5) the fish seem to like this much better. Not sure if the issue is do to the reduced DO at the higher temp or what. I need a better understanding between dissolved CO2 and dissolved oxygen in the water and how to measure it. The wet/dry make great sense but originally was going for the total planted tank thing when I purchased the hardware. In the short run, will I be ok to increase CO2 for the plants if I continue to use the air-stone? Will this give me more oxygen and CO2 in the water or am I just fighting between the two using this logic? Sorry for the dumb questions, should have done mush more up front research but I have jumped in with both feet, can you help me learn to swim now?


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## dan woods (Oct 21, 2010)

Other info: GH is 6 and KH is 4 to 5


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Solid said:


> Tom, if you put a wet/dry, what would you recommend for the Co2? Wouldn't off gassing be an issue?
> 
> Dan, My best advice to you is listen to Tom Barr. He really is one of the most knowledgeable and expierenced people in planted tanks.


Does the CO2 degas in a CO2 reactor when a gas bubble gap forms?

Same thing in a wet/dry chamber that's been sealed up so no gas exchange can take place. Then it's basically a large CO2 reactor. Anything that degasses simply dissolves back into the the water and exits slowly out the bottom.

Since the exit water is placid, it's rich in CO2 and O2, but does not degas any more than the tank itself might.

If the spillover in the pre filter is only 2" or so, then no degassing takes place there, or very very little.

And.........this is measurable.
We can measure O2 and also CO2(I have anyways) over a 24 hour period and see. In the past Steve Dixon, myself and George Booth all tested this using pH change as the relative metric for CO2 lost, and we found no changes vs a canister filter and each of us independently.

So there's no loss if the chamber is sealed and the spill over is reasonable.
This has been well known for 12-14 years or so at least in the planted hobby.

I've been a sump/wet/dry proponent going back over 2 decades.
It's not practical for smaller tanks, say 30-40 or less.

But all my tanks use them except 2 right now.
And I have plans for them 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

dan woods said:


> To tell the truth, 2 days ago I felt the breathing was a bit labored with the Discus so I turned on an air pump 24/7 and reduced the PH controller to trigger and hold the PH between 7.0 and 6.8 (from 6.8 to 6.5) the fish seem to like this much better. Not sure if the issue is do to the reduced DO at the higher temp or what. I need a better understanding between dissolved CO2 and dissolved oxygen in the water and how to measure it. The wet/dry make great sense but originally was going for the total planted tank thing when I purchased the hardware. In the short run, will I be ok to increase CO2 for the plants if I continue to use the air-stone? Will this give me more oxygen and CO2 in the water or am I just fighting between the two using this logic? Sorry for the dumb questions, should have done mush more up front research but I have jumped in with both feet, can you help me learn to swim now?


Well, there's not a large amount of info out there, asking is a good way though to find it. 

Seal the Wet dry section up with duct tape etc.
Reduce the spill over to 2" or so in the pre filter.

Increase surface movement in the tank, but not enough to break the water's surface, a nice slight ripple is good. With a wet dry, the O2 should be in the 7ppm range at 84F at night, with good plant growth, maybe 9ppm during the peak growth, or 100% to about 120%, maybe a tad higher if the plants are growing well and all.

This allows much more error and ease of use for the CO2 enrichment.
Also, once the CO2 is shut off at night(never leave CO2 dosing on at night/ without the tank lights being "on"), the water is much more quickly degassed and less respiration stress occurs.

I've critically measured both is a few tanks now.
Wet/drys really are much better for livestock and have few bad trade offs for planted tanks(much more pros than cons).


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## Solid (Jul 19, 2009)

I don't want to derail this thread but...

If the wet/dry section is sealed how does it add o2 to the water?

Do you recommend a commercial wet/dry filter, like a Eheim Model 2229, or a more reef style with a sump? I would be very much interested in a under tank picture of one of your tanks.

Thanks for all the info Tom!


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## nikonD70s (Apr 6, 2008)

thats a baller setup u got there. and nice camera too. hope everything goes well.


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## dan woods (Oct 21, 2010)

This is all fantastic info for me. I really want my setup as a higher end solution offering the best available (within reason) for the fish and plants. I sold one of my giant scale airplanes (other hobby) for the startup money to get into this hobby. The cash is a little slower growing now so I will stay on the thought of a small Vortech 10 pump for aiding water movement, then change over to a sump wet/dry. I will wait for conformation that Tom was referring to a large sump over the Ehiem type before purchasing the sump setup. My thought is to leave at least one of the G6's in the tank to continue the UV sterilizer at a lower flow than the sump pump would be since the G6 is up and running (unless you can see a negative issue with this). I should be able to start now and complete the upgrade in January. Thoughts???

nikonD70s - Thanks for the thumbs up (the camera is my other - other hobby, but I really s*ck at that one) still big fun.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Solid said:


> I don't want to derail this thread but...
> 
> If the wet/dry section is sealed how does it add o2 to the water?
> 
> ...


Plenty of O2 is added through current and no surface film, any O2 sucked into the over flow ends up there and can enter into the water solution.
Same for CO2. O2 degasses as well and is less than in the main tank, so when it's exposed to the surface and then the air/surface mix, the O2 rate of replacement is increased.

So O2 is increased through this process, and CO2 is conserved.
We are enriching CO2, but O2 is just whatever it is via the air.
Wet/drys are more to remove CO2 and less to add O2 but are better since they take water from the surface where it's higher in O2 and removes the surface films, sucks some air into the overflow which dissolves.

Just think about it.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

dan woods said:


> This is all fantastic info for me. I really want my setup as a higher end solution offering the best available (within reason) for the fish and plants. I sold one of my giant scale airplanes (other hobby) for the startup money to get into this hobby. The cash is a little slower growing now so I will stay on the thought of a small Vortech 10 pump for aiding water movement, then change over to a sump wet/dry. I will wait for conformation that Tom was referring to a large sump over the Ehiem type before purchasing the sump setup. My thought is to leave at least one of the G6's in the tank to continue the UV sterilizer at a lower flow than the sump pump would be since the G6 is up and running (unless you can see a negative issue with this). I should be able to start now and complete the upgrade in January. Thoughts???
> 
> nikonD70s - Thanks for the thumbs up (the camera is my other - other hobby, but I really s*ck at that one) still big fun.


Vortech's MP10 can barely handle a 1/2" thick glass thickness.
So less is better. Otherwise you need the MP20 for thicker glass of 1/2" to 3/4" thick.

FYI.

I just get something like a basic CPR wet/dry filter and their prefilters which are nice and good. No berlin style sumps etc, I love bag filters but could find no simple way to prevent their degassing issues.

The sealed up wet/dry tower at the top and if they have air vents is an easy quick solution. Just make sure not air can exchange inside that dry section. Plug any leaks with duct tape etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## dan woods (Oct 21, 2010)

I really want to thank both Tom and Solid for their help and input on my new tank setup. My stress levels are lower now that the Ich is visibly gone. I stopped adding Ich-attach and I did a 20 gallon water change last night, added activated carbon to one filter and Purigen to another. I did another 10 gallon change this morning before work and the fish have really lit up now. Water looks lots better too.

To better utilize the funds spent on the G6 filters and enhance the O2 in this tank at the same time, do you think it would be a good upgrade to this system to remove the one G6 that has no inline extras on it (UV, heaters, CO2 reactor ETC...) and replace it with a CPR 1000 wet/dry with a 100 overflow? Or is it bad to have more than one filtration loop in a given tank? Any thoughts appreciated...

-Dan


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## Solid (Jul 19, 2009)

Ive never used a wet/dry so I'll leave that advice to Tom or someone who has used one. But I don't think there would be anything wrong with adding an additional filtration loop. The general consensus is the more filtration the better. The only downside of adding an extra loop would be visually the additional in the tank equipment.

And if you are looking to get rid of one G6, I might be able to help you with that. :hihi:


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## dan woods (Oct 21, 2010)

I really like the idea of a surface skimmer that the CPR would add, this would let me pull water from top, bottom and middle for purification. No surface scum/more O2 potential.

Solid - thanks for offering to take that G6 off my future scrap pile, but I think I will use it as an excuse to get another tank LOL...


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Well, you will get more filtration certainly, so both is not a bad option either.

The CPR 1000+ pre filter is good.
Easier to add heaters, purigen etc and maintain water levels, clean in general.

Then just add bio lava, etc, and course sponge to the canisters.
This will reduce the cleaning needed.

The wet/dry is very easy to keep up on, a few seconds to squeeze the sponge filters is about it. Nothing to disconnect etc or take apart.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Solid (Jul 19, 2009)

Early onset MTS (Multiple Tank Syndrome). lol


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## Herbicidal (Aug 3, 2010)

Sounds like a nice setup Dan! I am also new to planted tanks and Discus (also a member of SimplyDiscus). My 155 has been up and running only since August of this year. I have 9 Discus and a number of tankmates. I am not using CO2 and I consider my tank to be "low tech". Now I'm starting to learn about fertilizers for the plants. Speaking of MTS...it is addicting. My wife now has her own 90g, my kids share a 32 gallon cube, my son has his own 10g and now my daughter has her own 29g - dubbed the Platy Palace! One guess on what's in there! :icon_mrgr The kids tank do not have live plants...yet. Gotta start somewhere, right?

Good luck and I'll continue to follow this thread as it's chock full of great info. roud:


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## dan woods (Oct 21, 2010)

I know there is a better forum for this but, I seem to be having poor luck with the Discus behaviors in this tank. Two males fighting for a female, she has laid eggs twice in a week. Laid eggs once with each male, the first male has been beaten into submission by the other male and has not eaten for 2 days now. Is this normal or do I need to re-home one already? The one that will not eat cannot come out in the open without getting pushed back in the corner by the other male. The female tries to stop it by getting between them but it looks like she would like to be with the looser (maybe due to similar colorations??)


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## dan woods (Oct 21, 2010)

Herbicidal said:


> Sounds like a nice setup Dan! I am also new to planted tanks and Discus (also a member of SimplyDiscus). My 155 has been up and running only since August of this year. I have 9 Discus and a number of tankmates. I am not using CO2 and I consider my tank to be "low tech". Now I'm starting to learn about fertilizers for the plants. Speaking of MTS...it is addicting. My wife now has her own 90g, my kids share a 32 gallon cube, my son has his own 10g and now my daughter has her own 29g - dubbed the Platy Palace! One guess on what's in there! :icon_mrgr The kids tank do not have live plants...yet. Gotta start somewhere, right?
> 
> Good luck and I'll continue to follow this thread as it's chock full of great info. roud:


Sounds like you have the water bug as bad as I do. Your tank looks great. I should qualify on my "high tech" as high tech capable tank. Have nice lights, CO2, and hardware, but a little slow on getting the equipment setup and configured properly for the benefits I can someday enjoy. The plants I have now would all do well in less light and probably not need CO2 to grow. I am still struggling with water composition for my brew in the tank. I am at 5 for KH and 5 for GH and can't seem to lower the KH to 4. I have done 5 water changes of 15 gallons each with Equilibrium only added to the RO water over the past 2 1/2 days and it still will not budge below 5. I even double checked to verify the RO/Equilibrium brew was 0 KH. Something in the tank is holding it at 5, perhaps the eco complete; it is a new tank in its first month. I need to slow down and enjoy the journey instead of racing to a place I think I want to be LOL...


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## dan woods (Oct 21, 2010)

update on the looks of the tank:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VZelqUtuF0


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## dan woods (Oct 21, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlOPiTRBrxs

Where I make my brew, RO water and additives for water changes in the laundry room I noticed a smell like ammonia (I thought the dog marked in there. Closer inspection showed it is comming from the vat of RO water and additives (just equilibrium, acid buffer and alkiline buffer. I have 2 heaters keeping the water at 88 degrees so I do not change the tank temp. I tested the OR brew for ammonia ad it is zero but there is definately a slight odor. I did bleach the inside a few days ago njust to disinfect, rinsed, dried and have been using since. I never get the tub empty, just make more RO, add salts and continus WC. Thoughts?


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## Solid (Jul 19, 2009)

Hrmm some dechlorinators have Sulphur compounds that smell alot but it doesn't look like your using any with your RO water, so im not sure. But I am sure that your tank looks amazing! I really like that piece of driftwood with roots you have, and apparently the discus do too.


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## im2smart4u (Dec 7, 2010)

Dan, in that youtube video, what kind of fish are the ones on the right? They look almost purple in that video, at least on my computer.


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## dan woods (Oct 21, 2010)

im2smart4u said:


> Dan, in that youtube video, what kind of fish are the ones on the right? They look almost purple in that video, at least on my computer.


Please excuse my spelling but I think you are talking about the penang eruption Discus...:icon_smil


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## dan woods (Oct 21, 2010)

dan woods said:


> Please excuse my spelling but I think you are talking about the penang eruption Discus...:icon_smil


 I did not look at the video again but I also have 2 blue snakeskin discus and another bue/purple one that I do not remember the name of. Basically, all the discus but 3 are purple of some shade (the purple fisio florecent bulb and the 10,000k led lights are a little blue in the color cast.


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## im2smart4u (Dec 7, 2010)

Actually I really like those blue discus, but discus cost too much for me. I was actually talking about the school of fish. They appear blue with purple highlights in the video. I thought it might be one of the species of blue tetras, but yours look a lot bluer than the pictures I have seen of those.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Just a tidbit of info on your tank livestock -
I noted in your 3rd post on page 1 that your livestock list included 12 SAE's (Siamese Algae Eaters). Many referencing sites on this fish will not mention the occasional tendency of some of this species to take a liking to Discus' slime coats. I've had 2 experiences with this (& the same with Oto cats as well) and removed the fish. This generally occurs when the fish get larger/older, get lazy when it comes to food, and they end up leaving algae pretty much out of their diet.
No damage is usually done, as the discus are large enough to just quickly shrug them off their backs, but it must cause them some level of stress, because the SAE's can be relentless. And I wonder what occurs at night when the discus are immobile & at rest.
Keep an eye on those SAE's.


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## seove (Aug 25, 2014)

I'm no expert but from my experience, I would avoid using salt for medication. I only use sea salt to provide minerals to the water. I use Seachem marine salt to provide minerals but found that the amount you have to use to treat ick, would melt your plants. I would research how much salt your plants can tolerate. The amount that they can tolerate is much less than what is prescribed for medicating ick. 


If you have chronic problems that calls for medication, you may need to look at other things that are suspect. I haven't treated for ick in years; since I almost totally nuked my plants. Every once in a while I see ick symptoms but they go away very quickly. Good husbandry and maintaining good water quality is a safer bet.




dan woods said:


> Solid,
> Is it ok to add salt for medication to a planted tank without plant stress? If so, how much and what kind?


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