# newbie after some advice



## Coltonorr (Mar 12, 2008)

I have removed 3 UGF in my life. I did it the same each time. Its messy and I'd recommend running some type of internal quick/polishing filter to help clear the water after the UGF is removed. Something like these
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_AquariumPage~PageAlias~powerheads_pumps_hagen_aquaclear.html

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewI...eads-Saltwater_Aquarium_Supplies~vendor~.html
1. Pull out all decorations, heater, fish in a bucket etc. 
2. Vacuum the tank well but quickly,because your going to vacuum again
3. very very slowly grab the UGF from the tube holes and lift from the back so all the gravel slides to the front, all the crud is going to be churning
4. pull out the UGF
5. no filters are running at this point at all...let the tank settle for 15 min. or so.
6. Vacuum all the settled crud off the gravel.
7. plug in your internal quick filter
8. fill tank
9. set up tank again.
10. GOOD LUCK!


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Since you have to practically break the entire tank down in the process, wouldn't it be easier to siphon all the water out into another container before you start? Dump gravel, wash tank and gravel, refill?


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## Bogzla (Sep 16, 2008)

jaidexl said:


> Since you have to practically break the entire tank down in the process, wouldn't it be easier to siphon all the water out into another container before you start? Dump gravel, wash tank and gravel, refill?


maybe I could set some tank water aside a day or 2 before and use that to wash the gravel & tank out

anyone have any idea how long to run the new filter alongside to get a nice bacteria colony going (since the tank has already cycled with the UGF)?

cheers for the replies guys :thumbsup:


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

At least a couple weeks, I run my new filters for a month.

It won't hurt to rinse the tank out with tap water as long as you put some dechlor in after the refill. While you're trying to preserve as much bacteria as possible, it'll help to not scrub the glass clean, just rinse the debris off. Honestly, I wouldn't clean anything at all if it were me and I was trying to preserve the cycle. I'd leave the water in, pull the UGF like Coltonorr stated, and let the mulm and debris settle back into the gravel. That way the only bacteria you're removing are the one's attached to the UGF. After a few weeks of settling in, I'd re-start the cleaning routine of vacuuming, cleaning filter media etc.


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## bulrush (May 7, 2007)

Putting tap water in your tank has the potential to kill some or most of your filter bacteria (if the HOB filter is running) which is why I always fill a 5g bucket with tap water, add dechlor to the bucket, then add bucket to the tank. Things go more smoothly if you have less variables to worry about, however your fish might do fine in spite of a mini cycle anyway.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

We're not talking about while anything is running, read above and the scenario is everything pulled from the tank, all water and gravel removed, including the under gravel filter, new filter in it's place. If that's not going to cause a mini cycle anyway, I don't know what is.

I run chlorine tests all day for a living, the amount in anyone's city tap water is usually less than you think, by the time it makes it across town and out into your sink, which is why so many people can go without dechlor and never lose fish. Not that I condone that practice by any means, I just think there are worse things that can happen to teh biofilter in this particular situation..


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Wouldn't it just be simpler to place rhizome plants, such as java, in the tank. The thin leaf version looks similar to Hygro willow. Or you could put some plants in plastic pots and trim the pots to be hidden behind something.

After all removing the filter will kill a lot of good bacteria. You have at the least a partial recycle. That is what I went through when I removed my sponge filter.


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## Bogzla (Sep 16, 2008)

Hilde said:


> Wouldn't it just be simpler to place rhizome plants, such as java, in the tank. The thin leaf version looks similar to Hygro willow. Or you could put some plants in plastic pots and trim the pots to be hidden behind something.
> 
> After all removing the filter will kill a lot of good bacteria. You have at the least a partial recycle. That is what I went through when I removed my sponge filter.


Yeah it probably would be (I already have some java moss tied to stones and an anubias - which may or may not make it - lower leaves and rhizome are going yellow / brown although there seems to be new growth at the top, including new roots working their way down)

honestly though the tank is too small for pots (only 25cm tall) - and this is another reason I'm keen to pull the UGF out

besides I've reached the point where I want a planted tank, not just an aquarium with some plants in it (which I have already). I also have some of what I believe is _Mayaca fluvitilis_, bought on impulse from the lfs which I'm _trying_ to root, but I dunno if the light is sufficient, there is new growth but it's terribly pale

Anyways I went out yesterday and picked up an internal filter (which is now running.. and huge, already thinking of ways to get the bugger in a pot of water outside the aquarium) and a new tube for the light since the old one had been in storage for some time...

Now I'm trying to decide whether to get some specialist substrate to mix with the gravel when I do take out the UGF, since there's going to be some upheaval anyway..


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## Coltonorr (Mar 12, 2008)

When I removed my UGF's I had canisters. I never went thru a mini cycle at all after pulling the UGF out. I wasn't changing filters...your best bet would be to let your new filter run for a few weeks before doing any UGF change. I'd also recommend that you use more than just an internal filter.


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## Bogzla (Sep 16, 2008)

Well that's all I can really afford ATM so we'll see how things go - it is oversized though (50l rating in a 28l tank)... I'll run the filter for a month or so wihout adding more fish... must be patient... must be patient


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Just remember that the tank will start cycling again after you add fish, your bac colony will downsize with no fish in the tank.


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## Bogzla (Sep 16, 2008)

No I meant it's running in the tank with the existing fish... but I'll leave it at the stock level it is to minimise cycling problems when I remove the UGF in a few weeks. Then I just have to figure out substrate, plants....


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## Coltonorr (Mar 12, 2008)

Bogzla, since your removing the substrate you might as well start over and shut the tank down and start from scratch...the point of removing the UGF and keeping the substrate is to preserve at least a portion of your existing substrate bacteria.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Agreed, if you plan on changing the sub then you're essentially starting anew tank from the ground up. Seems like you might be adding too much to the process.

If you run the new filter long enough and add a source of ammonia after setting back up, you should have a cycle time of around a week and will be able to drop a fish in as soon as ammonia and nitrite hit zero.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If you both get the filter established, and save some fresh mulm from under the UGF to seed the new substrate, you may be able to avoid a new cycle all together.

That worked for my 90gal.

I'd make sure you break down and set back up all in the same day, though, so the N-bacteria colonies in both don't start dying off.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Have you thought of doing an elnatural tank or an LME tank?
Here are some links, which I have collected, that give info on how to set up a planted tank cheaply. 
Http://www.pbase.com/plantella/330hnlme
 http://home.infinet.net/teban/how-to.html
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/kelly-intro.html
http://www.barreport.com/extimative-index/2876-non-co2-methods


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## Bogzla (Sep 16, 2008)

That tank in the top link looks awesome - love the look of the long plants along the top of the water - I live by a river & always loved the way they move with the water...

since it's just a small tank I'm thinking I could afford to go with some specialist substrate (eco complete?) - would this be sufficient for providing nutrients (along with fish waste..)? the light is 14W, giving me 2WPG and I won't be adding CO2

or would the soil-under-gravel approach be better for this setup?
I want to try and avoid routinely adding ferts if at all possible (ie nice low maintenance..)

all opinions appreciated! I'm so new at this all the information available on here (and elsewhere) is a little overwhelming... :icon_eek:


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

For a smaller tank I would personally spring for ADA Aquasoil. Same price or close enough to Eco, I think.


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## Bogzla (Sep 16, 2008)

That looks promising, I like that it lowers pH and hardness - it's pH7.5 out the taps here rising to pH8 after a day or two, so I imagine the hardness is also high (tho I don't have a test for that)


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Bogzla said:


> That looks promising, I like that it lowers pH and hardness - it's pH7.5 out the taps here rising to pH8 after a day or two, so I imagine the hardness is also high (tho I don't have a test for that)


That is not necessarily so. For if your water is treated with phosphates your ph will be high and the water will be soft. For a test kit I found it best to look for 1 on EBay that does more than 1 test. Test needed is for NH3/NH4, ph, kh, gh, nitrates, Co2. This is in the order of importance.

Co2 can be measured 
 
morning best time to test, the CO2 at its highest and pH at the lowest level.


take a cup of water out of the aquarium
test pH  
add an air stone to the cup of water
After 10 -15 min. take another pH reading. the difference is the amount of CO2 you have. If no change filter or an air stone is driving off all the surplus CO2 or not enough plants or ph is to high


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## Bogzla (Sep 16, 2008)

I didn't know that - I know the water here is very hard though.. infact my supplier publishes CaCO3 levels (296 mg/L ) Guess I'm going with hard water, alkaline plants...

I've been reading up on Tom Barr's no CO2 methods which seem like a good sound approach, so far as I understand plant physiology

now if I use the aquasoil - will non buried / floating plants need earlier dosing of good stuff, or will enough leach into the water column from the substrate?


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

A lot of the hard water plants are some of my favorites, to be honest. I'm personally leaning farther away from soft water stems these days. They would probably be perfect candidates for the non-CO2 method, too.

I think your floating and rhizome plants will be fine. Nitrogen will come from the AS for a while, and evidently you have a strong mineral content, so chances are you won't ever be seeing any Ca or Mg deficiencies in things like anubias etc. You'll have to watch for problems and address them, though, every situation is different.

Concerning the water; what are your goals and how much are you trying to spend this time around? Would a $99 RO unit be worth having access to the finicky and rare soft water plants? If you're going non-CO2 then I imagine it doesn't apply to you as much, and most plants will grow in harder water anyway, but something to consider. It's an easy fix to a hard water problem that really isn't as unattainable as it seems, or technical beyond anything else we're already doing.


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## Bogzla (Sep 16, 2008)

For now I want to work with what I have - mainly I want to achieve a nice, natural environment for the fish A) to promote more natural behaviour and B) so the tank is more pleasing to the eye.
If I succeed with this tank I may get hooked on trying more exotic / more demanding plants but right now I'd be happy to succeed with the most basic (duckweed notwithstanding).
Since the pH and hardness are already high, I will avoid anything that would increase them further (as I have read some substrates can)

I also am on a pretty tight budget at the moment so the less I can get away with spending the better (though I'm happy to spend a little where it will really help in the long run - quality substrate for example)

Are anubias particularly sensitive to salt? I did have one (_Anubias lanceolata_) but the leaves slowly turned yellow then brown, starting with the lower ones - not sure if this was down to dosing salt to help combat a nitrite spike (yeah, I didn't know better at the time and will not be doing this in future with plants in the tank) or that the old tube I had wasn't giving enough light, or another reason altogether..


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If you're looking for an excellent nutrient content yet really cheap substrate, you should really look into making your own Mineralized Soil substrate; there's a great thread going on this method right now near the top of the Substrate forum. :thumbsup:


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Bogzla said:


> I will avoid anything that would increase them further (as I have read some substrates can)


If you're talking about the bad batches of Eco, that was messing with some of us super-soft water folks. If your water is as hard as you're thinking it is, I don't think you'll find anything that will increase it much, maybe crushed coral (which is obviously a ridiculous choice for a planted tank).


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## Bogzla (Sep 16, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> If you're looking for an excellent nutrient content yet really cheap substrate, you should really look into making your own Mineralized Soil substrate; there's a great thread going on this method right now near the top of the Substrate forum. :thumbsup:


cool, that looks quite achievable if I can find somewhere to leave it for the drying out stages (reckon a warm airing cupboard would be OK or would that dry it out too fast?)

I shall investigate further obtaining the other additives.. hopefully the garden center up the road will stock them :smile:


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Unless you need a large amount of ferts it is cheaper to buy on line. I am positive this is true for majority of the products. 

Only these few ferts are cheaper to buy locally.
Magnesium sulfate = baking soda kh up
Potassium chloride = Morton's salt substitute
Potassium phosphate = fleet anema
Sodium chloride = Aquarium salt
Sodium bicarbinate = Baking soda

I prefer this site: 
www.aquariumfertilizers.com


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Hilde said:


> Magnesium sulfate = baking soda kh up


What is "baking soda kh up"? As far as I know, the only baking soda there is, is sodium bicarbonate, Epsom salt is magnesium sulfate.


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