# Freshwater Reef



## WestHaven (Jun 30, 2012)

Very well done!


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## SmokeyBlue (Oct 12, 2013)

Thanks. It took me years to look all of this up (and choose the criteria), but I burned it into my brain in the process, so looking up the info again and organizing it into a post only took a couple o' days. I didn't bother looking up the references because it would've taken me a few weeks longer (I'm a little busy with college, unfortunately). But yeah, it was a labor of love, and I've seen other people looking for this type of info. before, so I figured since I'd already done the hard work of looking it up, I might as well share it for the aquarium community's benefit.


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## assasin6547 (Feb 6, 2013)

Wow that's impressive, but are you sure you want to get MTS?


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## SmokeyBlue (Oct 12, 2013)

Well, I realize that they can reach pest-level abundance, but I always thought that was only in overfed tanks (I may be wrong about that, though). I find them appealing for their substrate-burrowing qualities and simple aesthetic charm.

I only mentioned them in the basic example stocklist because they're so dang common. Truth be told, if forced to choose only one species, my first choice of snail would be Theodoxus fluviatilis. Like most Nerites, they can graze on Diatoms. They can get abundant with a good food supply, but their numbers dwindle back down as the supply runs out. They're pretty easy to keep in check.


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## Ptyochromis (Mar 16, 2012)

Very cool! I have been looking high and low for some FW sponges but to no avail.
I have ventured to the salty side, and have had a reef tank running successfully for a little over a year now. 
There are 2 things I can add about sponges (speaking in generalities). 1) exposure to air often proves to be fatal to sponges (air gets traped between cells and the animal rots from the inside out). 2) Feeding should be frequent (no less than daily depending on species) and food should be of the appropriate size (generally phytoplankton of .5-5µm). 

Clam feeding is very similar to sponge feeding with regard to type and size.

Carbon dosing (aka vodka or vinegar dosing) could be used to grow food for clams and sponges.

Your motile cnidarians like jellies are best left to a species only environment in something like a kreisel tank. Microbubbles and pump intakes often prove fatal to jellies.

Flatworms aren't something I would willingly add to a tank, they have a reputation for being parasitic.

Bryozoa could be done. They may become a pest or food for fish (hard to say, would depend on species). Many could be feed rotifers (frozen are readily available to the hobbyist).

Several species of Gammarus could be kept in freshwater. They make good 'algaevores' and shredders.

I would stay away from the reptiles and amphibians. They have a reputation (which they are worthy of) for being very dirty.

Don't forget about the FW gobies and puffers (if you dare). I should note that puffers will consume inverts.


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## auban (Jun 23, 2012)

i think the most diverse tank i have ever set up was a mixed vernal pool tank.
i had vernal pool critters that i had collected from all over the US.

when first set up, i isolated 36 species of cyst producing critters.
ostracods, copepods, fairy shrimp, triops, even one lepidurus...

wasnt much to look at though.

Ptyochromis:
you can buy live Spongilla from carolina biological...
http://www.carolina.com/freshwater-sponges/spongilla-living/132735.pr

i have kept bryozoa as well...
it will start producing statoblasts when you first introduce it to a tank, which will usually hatch after a drying cycle. the new polyps will be better suited for your tank, given that they hatch.

they dont do well in clean tanks though.


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## SmokeyBlue (Oct 12, 2013)

Ptyochromis: Excellent contribution! That's the sort of detailed information many of these critters are missing and just the sort of stuff we need to know to successfully keep them. 

auban: Vernal pools are great sources for odd little critters for the tank, but they seem to be richer in microfauna than in macrofauna. But as noted with the branchiopods, what macrofauna there is can be very intriguing, and the diversity of microfauna found there is sure to be a microscope junky's dream. :icon_wink

What little I have seen of the bryozoans seems like masses of gelatinous ooze or frogspawn, but I've never actually seen them in a tank, and they might be more manageable than I previously expected, and perhaps more appealing too. I also think they're relatively common, both in the states and elsewhere (but I'd have to check my sources to be sure). They may be worth looking into.


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## Rock Island (May 29, 2013)

> Wow that's impressive, but are you sure you want to get MTS?


If I had to guess (and I do), I'd say the reference was Multi Tank Syndrome as opposed to Malaysian Trumpet Snails...


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## Merth (Sep 9, 2012)

Mts will reach pest level even without overfeeding. They eat anything and everything. Leftovers, waste, dead plant matter, algae. Of course they can be kept in check with diligence but I would rethink that as my snail representative.


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## WestHaven (Jun 30, 2012)

Has anyone ever attempted to create a "freshwater reef" as described in this thread?


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## SmokeyBlue (Oct 12, 2013)

Rock Island, Merth: Well, with my inexperience, I think you guys are probably on to something; MTS are not the best choice for the average aquarist. That said, your warning is here on record for any inexperienced forum visitor, and I'll slightly tweak my OP to reflect the matter.

WestHaven: I've searched high and low for folks who've attempted something like this, and the only remotely similar example I've found is this: http://brackishfaq.webspace.virginmedia.com/Projects/freshwaterreef.html

The FW Invert hobby has only seen intense development in recent years (when compared to the SW hobby), so it's to be expected that few people have attempted something like this (though it's unfortunate, to say the least). As far as I can tell, to produce a literally reef-like environment (instead of the Seagrass/Kelp-bed analogues that heavily planted tanks look like), there should be more emphasis on the rock-work than you see in most planted tanks (Lava Rock and Artificial Texas Holey Rock seem like good Reef Rock analogues). The core fauna of the tank seem easy enough to obtain (snails, crustaceans, fish and maybe some amphibians, if you can handle their mess), but the rarer species can be very hard to come by, if not near impossible (many have never been seen in the hobby), and there aren't any good coral analogues in freshwater (except for the equally sessile bryozoans, which aren't near as colorful).

Truly, this is uncharted territory, and there's quite a lot of room for experimentation. My ulterior motive (if you could call it that) for my OP was to draw attention to the rarer species, and maybe finally have them introduced to the hobby (though in a sustainable way, please). Maybe it'll catch the eye of someone with the right connections, and we might see some of these species appearing soon on importers' lists. Maybe then we'd finally be able to make an actual reef-like tank in pure freshwater. In the meantime, we'd have to make due with whatever we can catch locally and the species that are already available in the hobby (which, thankfully, are more diverse now than they've ever been).


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## greenman857 (Feb 25, 2012)

So I've been interested in this kind of thing for a while too.
If you check my posts about the clay tower:http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=194049&highlight=
While far from what your talking about I'm trying to work along these lines.

My theory is that low fired clay with various sized holes, crevices etc are the basis for the "reef, providing a diverse landscape/hardscape, beyond that a good variety of plants including a moss "jungle", various substrates (gravel, sand, mulm) all can work together to create a habitat that will allow for a large number of species to co-exist.

My clay tower tank has/had shrimp, visible clouds of protozoans, seed shrimp, blackworms, polychaetes (only come out when light is out), 3 species of snail MTS,Ramshorn, Pond), flatworms (which I believe more harmless than usually thought).

I purposedly avoided any fish as they seem to usually put such predation pressure on tanks as to eliminate everything else or close to it.

I think fw jellyfish would be real cool but I seem to remember that the populations mysteriously appear and disappear in natural conditions.

Alot of this also depends on size too, I'll bet a lot more successful reef maybe even with fish could be created in a 200 gal than a 10 gallon

Now you've got me thinking of trying a reef wall on the back of a tank and see how that might work. But it'll be a while, haven't even built yet.


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## SmokeyBlue (Oct 12, 2013)

From a practical perspective, clay is actually a great Reef Rock analogue as its most important detail is its ability to culture microorganisms and cycle bacteria (which, like clay, it achieves through its porosity). Your theory seems sound, and judging from your stocklist providing a varied environment seems pretty effective at increasing the survival rate for a lot of these critters.

If chosen wisely, you need not avoid fish entirely as there may be some species capable of coexisting with the inverts (and then there's my loophole, where predators and prey can share the tank if the prey's breeding rate exceeds its mortality-by-predator - and by other causes).

The Jellyfish population cycle probably coincides with a boom and crash in prey populations, though I'm not certain of it. Ptyochromis'suggestion of a Kreisel Tank is probably best for an adult, but I'm not sure on the appropriate conditions for rearing young. There's another genus called Limnocnida, but it's not as well known as Craspedacusta.

And yes, the bigger the tank, the greater diversity it can sustain (up to a point). Go for the Reef Wall, it sounds like a great way to provide an environment for the inverts (and if there's a lot of rockwork involved, you might even get away with adding fish as the inverts would have plenty of hiding spaces).


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## Ptyochromis (Mar 16, 2012)

I totally forgot that at one point I collected a ton of links on freshwater cnidarians, porifera and bryozoa. Ill dump

-Paludicella articulata (Ehrenberg 1831)
http://www.bryozoans.nl/soorten/en/paludicella_articulata.html

-Freshwater sponges in a aquarium
http://cvjoint2.tripod.com/index.html

-Moss Animals & Lace Corals, the Bryozoans
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/bryozoans.htm

-Hydra
http://www.offwell.free-online.co.uk/hydra.htm

-On the Medusa of Microhydra ryderi and on the Known Forms of Medusae inhabiting
Fresh Water.
http://jcs.biologists.org/content/s2-50/200/623.full.pdf

-Spongilla lacustris (Linnaeus) - a freshwater sponge from Alberta
http://bio-ditrl.sunsite.ualberta.ca/detail/?P_MNO=2654

-Cristatella mucedo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristatella_mucedo

-Ephydatia fluviatilis
http://www.marinespecies.org/porifera/porifera.php?p=taxdetails&id=167144

-Mysterious Bryozoa
http://notes-from-dreamworlds.blogspot.com/2012/04/mysterious-bryozoa.html

-The Phylum Ectoprocta (Bryozoa)
http://www.earthlife.net/inverts/bryozoa.html

note on the above: Ectoprocta is unaccepted taxon.http://www.marinespecies.org/aphia.php?p=taxdetails&id=2601

-Coral Compatibility: On Reducing Captive Negative Interactions Cnidarians
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/CorlCompArt.htm

-Interview With a Sponge Scientist
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/10/podcast

-Aquarium Invertebrates: Sponges, Phylum Porifera
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/4/inverts

-Not all sponges filter feed. Some are carnivorous!
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/carnivorous-sponges

-Aquarium Invertebrates: A Look at the Sponges
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/6/inverts2


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## Ptyochromis (Mar 16, 2012)

SmokeyBlue said:


> From a practical perspective, clay is actually a great Reef Rock analogue as its most important detail is its ability to culture microorganisms and cycle bacteria (which, like clay, it achieves through its porosity). Your theory seems sound, and judging from your stocklist providing a varied environment seems pretty effective at increasing the survival rate for a lot of these critters.
> 
> If chosen wisely, you need not avoid fish entirely as there may be some species capable of coexisting with the inverts (and then there's my loophole, where predators and prey can share the tank if the prey's breeding rate exceeds its mortality-by-predator - and by other causes).
> 
> ...


A kreisel tank is really the only option for jellies. The tank should also be devoid of decor. Rearing young could feasibly be done in the same tank as the adults, the hydra should attach to the walls of the tank.


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## SmokeyBlue (Oct 12, 2013)

Awesome links, Ptyochromis! Paludicella looks like it could be very ornate in an aquarium setting, and Cristatella (with it's motile habit) is fascinating (though with it's coldwater preference, it wouldn't thrive - or perhaps even survive - in a tropical tank. Coldwater tanks are fair game, though).

"Ectoprocta" is indeed an unaccepted synonym for Bryozoa, but should be distinguished from the similar-yet-unrelated Moss Animal group "Entoprocta", which contains at least two FW representatives (Urnatella gracilis and Loxosomatoides sirindhornae).

The link on "FW Sponges in the Aquarium" is GOLD! It contradicts some of the things I've found elsewhere, though (shame I can't remember my link), but it clearly came about from actual experience, so it goes to show how much room there is to experiment with these poorly-known species. What works for one species in a group might not for another, and what works for one person might not work for another one.

The "Mysterious Bryozoa" article was very interesting, especially the part about cell structure and symbiosis. I had never even heard of the Xenophyophores. They're probably near the limit of possible cell size (the Aepyornis egg was pretty close to that limit, though it was an egg as opposed to a motile organism, and it was on land).

The "Coral Compatibility" article was very useful, especially for those looking to expand towards Reefkeeping (as I hope to do someday). And the Sponge articles at the end were also interesting.

Regarding the Kreisel tank, I had expressed doubt because of a link (which I also lost, despite looking again recently) where a man had raised the larva and initial polyps in a seemingly ordinary tank filled with porous filter media (ceramic rings). I thought that maybe the young didn't "need" the kreisel tank in the strictest sense. But yeah, it makes sense that they would survive attached to the walls of a kreisel tank, and since that's where the adults would have to be kept anyway, it's probably best to start them off in there in the first place.

All in all, very interesting and well-researched links. :smile:


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## SmokeyBlue (Oct 12, 2013)

I found the link! The one I had referenced in saying that Sponges waste away in fish tanks (though as you can see from your links, Ptyochromis, results may vary). It was a member of the PetShrimp forum who had made the attempt at culturing Spongilla lacustris, though he didn't name the location he obtained them from.

Fourth and fifth post, by "invert phil": http://www.petshrimp.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2970

Perhaps other species (or other populations of this species) would be better suited for captivity. These things aren't that uncommon (and if they weren't available locally, I know of some Biological Supply houses that sell some species). We need more folks takin' a chance with 'em, figuring out their likes and dislikes. In my OP I described them as being "of little interest to the casual aquarist". Prove me wrong, folks!


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Merth said:


> Mts will reach pest level even without overfeeding. They eat anything and everything. Leftovers, waste, dead plant matter, algae. Of course they can be kept in check with diligence but I would rethink that as my snail representative.


I had a problem/w them that was solved by getting one Kuhli Loach. Because it was just one, it did display the nervous symptoms talked about that they might if kept alone instead of in a group but what it did in that aria was to just stay
hidden during the day and only come out when the lights were off in the tank. Very thick bodied and healthy looking
when it left the tank. Did not at all appear the worst for being alone. The "one only" was because it was a ten G tank.
Given that you are talking at least a 125G for this "reef", a small school of them would be very compatible for it.
The Dwarf Pigmy sunfish are also a peaceful species which would allow fish in that environment. http://www.aquaculturestore.com/Pygmy-Sunfish/
Keep that link as it CAN be very helpful in providing some of your critters when you get started on this.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

I have always found the diversified species concept to be what I wanted in my tank(s). I now have one that is dedicated to
this(unfortunately lease locked to ten G only) in which I use no ferts in order that daphnia can be there. My concept actually
wasn't for diversity but rather for a self sustaining(food wise) environment.

BTW: I don't think I see...wait, there it is..."Quillwort" yes you did cover all the letters in the alphabet...LOL...


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## SmokeyBlue (Oct 12, 2013)

Ptyochromis: I found the article I was referring to, regarding Craspedacusta's larva and the ceramic rings. It actually isn't anywhere near as detailed as I had thought. It just tells of a man who found polyps in the filter media of his aquarium and sent them to another aquarist, who subsequently raised them to the medusa stage (it doesn't detail how he does it though, lacking in techniques and circumstances) The article is this one: http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artnov99/fwjelly.html , with additional information here: http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artdec99/fwjelly2.html

Raymond S: The Kuhli Loach looks like an interesting solution, but I wonder about its compatibility with the other invert species (same with the Sunfish). It merits a bit more investigation.

I never actually mentioned the gallons for my reef. I currently have a 50 gallon aquarium and am waiting to obtain the filter before I get started. I expect my initial stocklist to resemble (to some extent) the really basic example at the bottom of my OP.

The self-sustaining concept is interesting. You can go a bit further with it by using the Walstad method (no actual filter), but depending on the specifics it may be a very messy-looking tank.

And yeah, you can pretty much find every letter with the available diversity, LOL.

Also, I just remembered something missing from my OP: I realize that the subject of fish has been covered pretty much everywhere (which is why I limited my reference to taxonomy), but I could've gone into greater detail with those specific groups of fish shared in common with the reef tank (like puffers, gobies, pipefish, eels, etc.). I believe Ptyochromis mentioned them in an earlier post. They merit at least a cursory mention of the different kinds available, even if many of them aren't invert (or community) safe. I'll have to do a few searches on them to modify my OP at a later date.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Thank you for this informative thread. I'm wondering as to why Simocephalus sp. are better suited for life in a planted tank than other water flea species. Thanks in advance for any information regarding this.


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## SmokeyBlue (Oct 12, 2013)

Simocephalus sp. are referred to as "Clinging Daphnia" because they spend a greater amount of time clinging to plants and objects than swimming in the open (compared to true Daphnia and Moina). My understanding is that such habits imply a (¿partially?) benthic habit, and potentially detritivorous diet. Planktonic inverts and planktivores are harder to maintain as a breeding population in a planted tank, compared to benthic inverts and detritivores.

Truth-be-told, I've not found a direct and explicit reference that states that Simocephalus is in-fact truly benthic or a detritivore, so you may just consider this hypothetical. It made sense to me given their clinging habit, but it's not explicitly proven. All it takes, though, is a little experimentation to confirm or deny the statement's veracity. I, myself, would like to try my hand at keeping them, but I'd have to wait 'till I get my aquarium up and running.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Thanks for the clarification. I have heard references to a benthic water flea species before, and given this information it seems that Simocephalus sp. is a fair candidate.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

I actually have semi-Walstad tanks. I made/experimented/w these filters just because. You can see them in my profile
and/or just PM me for a lot more pictures of them. Daphnia/Moina etc. I try them all in these tanks, especially those called "scuds".
These "filters" have no screens/pads/sponges..just the bio-media on top of those so called egg crates for keeping the bio-media
in the filters. So a current flowing around bio-media is the only act of filtering in my tanks. This is so any of those mentioned
critters and baby shrimp or fish can go right through it.
The Pigmy sunfish live off of all these only. They chase my baby shrimp but loose track of them the moment they do that darting
thing shrimp do. Likely do get a few of the babies but oh well. Actually they are hard to start unless you have scuds in there as
they eat almost exclusively live food. Most can be changed over to frozen blood worms, but not all will accept those.
The 50g sounds great. The only reason for the 125 guess was that comment about "the bigger the more diverse".
Heading over to Petco soon to pick up another ten to replace the one which I first built.


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## Entomologist210 (Nov 16, 2013)

I don't think it's truly possible to create a "reef like" environment in a freshwater setting without a large abundance of aquatic insects. The problem being that in order to do that you're messing with large numbers of organisms who have specialized in mass breeding and short lifespans and of which most spend only their immature lives in the water before emerging onto the land and air as adults. Most of the balancing in an aquatic setting as far as keeping numbers of micro-invertebrates in manageable levels is done by insects.


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## saltykisses (Dec 30, 2013)

How's it going very interesting idea... If I can help you from a reefers perspective let me know, if I don't know the answers I know a lot of experts that do.

I must confess I didn't read all of what you wrote mainly because we have to focus on what's do-able and build from their.. So the first thing you'll need is a habitat I'd go for sand and some kind of porus rock..

A lot of the fish/creatures have symbiotic relationships in one way of another

So from a worker ant perspective..(the ant has nothing to do with anything) you'll need what we call a clean up crew..eg (marine snails clean algae,hermit crabs aerate the substrait,shrimps clean parasites from fish) these can be fish,invertebrates,plants ect..

Then your plants,

Finally the fish... And you can the build on it basically your setting up a freshwater tank using saltwater method..


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## saltykisses (Dec 30, 2013)

The insect thing is mimicry of zoo plankton..Coe pods, am pods and such .. It's not a good idea to use insects because the freshwater comparison would be fry young fish..

The insects prob would be reef pests like pyramid snails.flatworm ect


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## SmokeyBlue (Oct 12, 2013)

Raymond S. said:


> I actually have semi-Walstad tanks. I made/experimented/w these filters just because. You can see them in my profile
> and/or just PM me for a lot more pictures of them. Daphnia/Moina etc. I try them all in these tanks, especially those called "scuds".
> These "filters" have no screens/pads/sponges..just the bio-media on top of those so called egg crates for keeping the bio-media
> in the filters. So a current flowing around bio-media is the only act of filtering in my tanks. This is so any of those mentioned
> ...


Sounds like a well-designed tank. The pics certainly look nice, and the bio-filtering system seems sound (bio-filtering being the dominant form of filtration in many SW Reef setups). I like the inter-species interaction you've got going there. Looks like the fish would eat all the scuds if they could, but some of the scuds are faster and they're fast breeders (good example of my "no-predators" exception: non-voracious predators and prolific prey). The scuds can help keep the tank clean in the event of over-feeding (they'll even tackle live food if they can catch it or if it dies in-tank).

I'd actually love to have a really big tank someday, but I'll have to settle for 50 gallons for now. Why replace the old tank? Was it damaged? :icon_eek:



Entomologist210 said:


> I don't think it's truly possible to create a "reef like" environment in a freshwater setting without a large abundance of aquatic insects. The problem being that in order to do that you're messing with large numbers of organisms who have specialized in mass breeding and short lifespans and of which most spend only their immature lives in the water before emerging onto the land and air as adults. Most of the balancing in an aquatic setting as far as keeping numbers of micro-invertebrates in manageable levels is done by insects.


Well yeah, in the average FW ecosystem insects are the most numerous organisms and the biggest detritivores (as well as filling other important niches), but I had to eliminate most of them as prospects because they didn't fit the criteria. The terrestrial adults are strictly off-limits unless you have a paludarium (another big project to which I applied the same methodology as this one, with even bigger and more diverse results, but I digress). Most of the fully aquatic species are predatory to some extent, and even with my taxonomic searches many of the more poorly-known taxa probably escaped my notice. That's why the only insect family I managed to squeeze in was the Corixidae family (a real shame, 'cause a lot of the other aquatic insects are very interesting).

Luckily, in-spite of the comparative rarity, my searches turned up a few crustacean species that could fulfill similar niches to the insects and fill the role of SW inverts in the FW tank. That said, they'd still require a bit of planning in order to maintain proper balance in the tank.



saltykisses said:


> How's it going very interesting idea... If I can help you from a reefers perspective let me know, if I don't know the answers I know a lot of experts that do.
> 
> I must confess I didn't read all of what you wrote mainly because we have to focus on what's do-able and build from their.. So the first thing you'll need is a habitat I'd go for sand and some kind of porus rock..
> 
> ...





saltykisses said:


> The insect thing is mimicry of zoo plankton..Coe pods, am pods and such .. It's not a good idea to use insects because the freshwater comparison would be fry young fish..
> 
> The insects prob would be reef pests like pyramid snails.flatworm ect


The sand of choice (if sand is the substrate of choice) would be pool filter sand, because of its chemical inertness (Is that a word? O.O). For similar reasons, the rock of choice (with high porosity) would be lava rock. All of this assumes that a reef-like environment is desired, but remember that my use of the word "reef" was meant to be symbolic: a comparison of diversity, not necessarily environment (that said, having such reeflike diversity in a literally reef-like environment would be a delightful bonus).

In my searches I didn't find much in the way of symbiotic partnerships among FW Inverts. I know there's a FW Pistol Shrimp but I don't know if it would bond with a Goby like the SW ones would. For the cleanup crew I mentioned FW Nerites as algae eaters, and Thiariid snails & FW Bristleworms as substrate aerators. I'm not aware of any cleaner shrimp analogues or parasite eaters in FW. SW also has Cleaner Wrasse, but I'm not sure if any FW Fish fulfill that purpose either. Plants aren't really a direct analogue for Coral (they're more like Macroalgae analogues), but FW lacks the sessile invert diversity of SW, so they'll have to do (unless you can get your hands on some Bryozoans); that said, plants are included on their own merits.

Insects fulfill other niches that merely Zooplankton or pests, but very few species fulfilled the criteria I mentioned (fully aquatic, non-predatory, non-parasitic, etc.). That said, I'd compare Waterboatmen (Corixidae, NOT Notonectidae) to some species of SW crustaceans in their behavior and niche, and they won't prey on fish or their fry.


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## Acro (Jul 7, 2012)

This is a very cool thread!!!
Keep it living!


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## SmokeyBlue (Oct 12, 2013)

All right then, I'll try to upload the FW counterparts to SW Fish this weekend, but it's been a while since I researched fish, so I might be a little rusty. If anyone would like to refresh my memory with some types, I certainly wouldn't mind. To get the ball rolling, I know of a few Puffers and Pipefish that can thrive in pure FW.

Or, if you'd rather keep this on track with the Inverts (as opposed to merely the SW comparison), does anyone have any examples of a particularly diverse tank they might have? I'd offer up my own, but it's still sitting empty in my living room. Curse my lack of funds! :icon_conf


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## mnemenoi (May 28, 2012)

What about the tentacled snake for a fully aquatic reptile? Livebearers that do great in planted tanks


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## JeremyM (Feb 23, 2012)

mnemenoi said:


> What about the tentacled snake for a fully aquatic reptile?


Well for one, their diet consists mainly of fish...


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## SmokeyBlue (Oct 12, 2013)

mnemenoi said:


> What about the tentacled snake for a fully aquatic reptile? Livebearers that do great in planted tanks





JeremyM said:


> Well for one, their diet consists mainly of fish...


Oh yeah, I had forgotten to reference those in my OP. They're pretty interesting, but Jeremy's got a point. It's the reason it doesn't fit the criteria for the community tank. But... I'm wondering if it would actually be a suitable tank-mate for smaller inverts. I'm a little ignorant of its full dietary habits, so I don't know if it would relish inverts as well as fish. Perhaps a bit of reading is in order for me.

I gave the Fish list a shot, but unless I've missed a few groups (which is a possibility), it seems like a rather short list (I mentioned groups with FW representatives. Perhaps if I mentioned specific species, the list would be longer). The main issue with most of the fish is that they contradict some of my criteria for the community tank. Many of them are predatory (at least on inverts), and most can't be easily bred in captivity.

Amongst the groups with FW representatives, there are several types of Eel, including Moray Eels (a select few of which can thrive in pure FW, as opposed to low brackish), several types of Pufferfish, a few species of Pipefish (most prefer brackish, a few can live in pure FW; they may get along well with larger inverts), the Paradox Fish (which is a Pipefish analogue, peaceful with larger inverts), FW Lionfish (looks more like a Stonefish in physical appearance), Pike (which I've often thought of as a Barracuda analogue; WAY too predatory!), and the previously addressed Sharks and Stingrays.

Gobies are a familiar group with plenty of community-worthy species (not all of them would get along with smaller inverts); a few can breed in captivity. The Peacock Gudgeon is a very attractive species that actually does well in my proposed set up, and it can breed in captivity. I'm hoping to get a few for my tank when it's up and running.

Halfbeaks also have FW representatives, and are actually quite well suited to the community tank as well. They're livebearers, and despite being invert predators by nature, they're surface-feeding strategy keeps them out of the way for most benthic inverts (So... does that make them insect specialists instead of invert specialists?).

I had hoped to add Whirligig Beetles to my tank, as they're quite common in my neck of the woods, but they seem predatory, so I won't even bother. There's loads of FW shrimp around here, but many are predatory and the few that aren't can't breed in FW. I'll have to stick to the commercial species (though I'll keep a peaceful local one if I can catch it).


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## SmokeyBlue (Oct 12, 2013)

*Bristleworms*

Interesting update:

I've been searching for years for a source of FW Bristleworms to add to my (soon to be commenced) collection (as a member of the cleanup crew), but to no avail. It seems no one cares about them, nobody wants to sell them, and the few people that find them as hitchhikers in their tanks are freaked out by them (likening them to "centipedes"). Well, I think I've finally found a source for them after all! But it looks like it will be a hit-or-miss type of deal. Read on...

After a few searches relating to terrestrial bristleworms, I came across the Namanereidinae subfamily * of Nereid worms (Ragworms), and apparently, one species (referred to as "Nuclear Worms" by the marketing department; taxonomic name "Namalycastis rhodochorde" **) has become common in US bait shops in recent years. They're used as marine fish bait, but the worms themselves are native to tropical non-marine waters, in salinities ranging from 1 to over 30 ppt ***. A search for "Nuclear Worms" revealed only environmental research papers relating to them, but searching for their alternate name (Cordelle Worms) revealed a few sources that sell them live, online.

There may or may not be a risk to these worms. For one thing, they may carry commensals into the aquarium, a few of which could be damaging to the tank fauna or to human health (the name "Vibrio" was tossed around, though the cholera species is no longer being seen on them). It's possible they might not adapt well to captivity, and if they do, there's no guarantee that they'll reproduce. We don't know their feeding habits, and they may prey upon other creatures (like the much maligned Fireworms in reef tanks); they reach a length of up to 2 meters long. There's plenty of potential risk involved with this species... but we'll never know if we never try. No guts, no glory. So, if I can find a source that will ship them live to me here in Puerto Rico, I will volunteer my own 50 gallon tank (currently empty) for experimentation (perhaps I'll use a smaller, cycled aquarium with some plants, guppies, shrimp and snails to test them out, prior to introducing them to the main tank).

I expect to be dealing with my aquarium this summer, so that's when I intend to acquire them. If all goes well, we may have a useful new critter on our hands. So... any thoughts?

*http://www.annelida.net/docs/namanereid.html
**http://calost.org/pdf/science-initiatives/ais/AIS Live Bait Report.pdf
***http://darc.cms.udel.edu/ansr/nwormpage.html


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

I definitely want to hear more about this invert when you get it. Do you know when you may have it in your tank?


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## SmokeyBlue (Oct 12, 2013)

Well, I recently received the remaining funds from my semester, so funds are no longer an issue. But I'm having a nasty semester with organic chemistry, so I won't have time to work on it 'till summer. That's when I'll buy the filter, substrate and plants. I was thinking about letting it cycle for about a month before adding any substantial fauna, so pretty much after that.

The remaining fauna would be a few species of snails (Blue Ramshorns, Thiara cf. winterii, Mini Yellow Tylomelania), some shrimp (Malawa, Sulawesi River, Super Tiger and Red Rilis), Cajun Dwarf Crayfish, Catfish (Pygmy Corys and Dwarf Otos), Loaches (Hillstream & Kuhlis), Endler's Livebearers, Peacock Gudgeon, Celebes Halfbeak, African Dwarf Frogs and Eastern Newts (depending on availability). And maybe some other CCrew critters (Stylaria, Aeolosoma, Dero, Ostracods, etc.), with occasional additions of Branchiopods. This is my official stocklist.

Edit: I realize the newts may prey on my shrimp, but I intend to have separate shrimp breeding quarters anyway. That said, the newts are the most "expendable" item on my preliminary list, so I may not get them at all.


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## Maechael (Sep 9, 2012)

Wish that this was still an active thread it seemed to have much potential.

Hopefully this topic will be revived in the near future here, or elsewhere.


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## fermentedhiker (Oct 28, 2011)

Cool idea. I did something vaguely similar a few years ago. Nothing as ambitious as what you've got planned but it was fun. A 20L tank with a base substrate of black sand topped with natural colored aquarium gravel. Big piece of driftwood(locally collected) a mix of plants(java moss, cabomba, dwarf lily, duckweed, and maybe a couple others I'm forgetting. Fauna was fishless but still moderately diverse(blackworms, white/black/brown planaria, pond snails, ramshorns, MTS, daphnia, various copepods, ostracods, scuds, yellow var of cherry shrimp, isopods, Thai micro crab. Light was supplied by a dual tube PC fixture meant for reefing(one 10000K tube and 1 actinic). Just an air powered sponge filter. 

The system ran very stable for a couple of years although diversity tended to successively diminish. Free swimming things like copepods and daphnia/moina etc... Faded out fairly quickly. I didn't see anyway of providing enough green water to keep their population going and they seem to lack the ability to self regulate in a resource limited environment.

Black worms don't seem to persist either(perhaps tropical temps are not conducive to their life cycle) but maybe tubifex would fair better?

the isopods were by far one of my favorites along with the Thai micro crabs but both seem to fail to reproduce in this system.

The white planaria grew dominant over the black and brown after a few months. This is unfortunate since the black and brown are detrivores whereas the white are predatory. That being said I never witness a planaria take down anything. They crossed paths with shrimp, scuds and ostracods continually and never cause an issue(during daylight at least).

MTS aren't a pest in systems where there is competition in my experience. An assassin snail might be a viable option in a big enough tank. Mine keeps MTS numbers in check but could never ever get them all.

Toward the end I had a problem with osctracod explosion. This tank never had any algae, inspite of the relatively strong lighting. The ostracods just ate everything and at the end were destroying any plants that had a tender structure. They literally ate the roots off of the duckweed until it was all dead.

In the end I had to rehome some dwarf cichlid fry(which I thought were small enough to be safe) WRONG. The systematically ate everything in about three weeks.

I would love to try it again with a something like a 40B.

I think you'll have to restrict your fish choices. Peacock Gudgeons get 3" long and would likely eat almost everything you are hoping to have.

True nano fish might be OK though. Things like Indostomus paradoxus or crocodilus, Danionella dracula , various Badis species come to mind.

it would be very cool to be able to keep some of these organisms successfully in aquariums(like sponges).

Such a system that includes fish might require the addition of a refugium(to copy reefing yet again) to provide a location for some of these things to reproduce unmolested.


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## fermentedhiker (Oct 28, 2011)

An interesting article on the fan worms. Not a lot of useful information regarding keeping them, but it's worth noting that this particular one is involved in the life cycle of two parasitic organisms that impact salmon populations. Not sure if that could lead to problems with completely unrelated species of fish, but something to keep in mind.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/file-stora...thesis_dissert/Malakauskas Dissertation-1.pdf


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## fermentedhiker (Oct 28, 2011)

Maechael said:


> Wish that this was still an active thread it seemed to have much potential.
> 
> Hopefully this topic will be revived in the near future here, or elsewhere.



Agreed. I always find the subject fascinating. I suppose it might be partly nostalgic, hearkening back to childhood days collecting critters from streams/bogs/ponds just for the fun of seeing something new and different.


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## SmokeyBlue (Oct 12, 2013)

Maechael said:


> Wish that this was still an active thread it seemed to have much potential.
> 
> Hopefully this topic will be revived in the near future here, or elsewhere.





fermentedhiker said:


> Agreed. I always find the subject fascinating. I suppose it might be partly nostalgic, hearkening back to childhood days collecting critters from streams/bogs/ponds just for the fun of seeing something new and different.


I suppose you might say the topic lacked activity 'cause this is a highly experimental field. Not many people have access to the more exotic species on this list, and many of them have never even been reared in captivity. No access, no experience, little research to provide. Despite my ambitions, I only have access to the more common commercial species at the moment, and I have no connections to hook me up with the rarer ones. I'm not even as proactive as I'd like to be in this hobby. My tank STILL remains empty 'cause I had a lot going on. Suffice it to say, I still haven't attempted the Cordelle Worms. With any luck, I'll have it filled and cycling before the end of next month.



fermentedhiker said:


> An interesting article on the fan worms. Not a lot of useful information regarding keeping them, but it's worth noting that this particular one is involved in the life cycle of two parasitic organisms that impact salmon populations. Not sure if that could lead to problems with completely unrelated species of fish, but something to keep in mind.
> 
> https://s3.amazonaws.com/file-stora...thesis_dissert/Malakauskas Dissertation-1.pdf


Interesting article. Maybe they only infect salmonids? Even if they weren't so restricted, perhaps a long time in quarantine (and some generational turnover) might rid the worms of them. Or perhaps it'd be better to obtain pathogen-free stock, if it could be found.



fermentedhiker said:


> Cool idea. I did something vaguely similar a few years ago. Nothing as ambitious as what you've got planned but it was fun. A 20L tank with a base substrate of black sand topped with natural colored aquarium gravel. Big piece of driftwood(locally collected) a mix of plants(java moss, cabomba, dwarf lily, duckweed, and maybe a couple others I'm forgetting. Fauna was fishless but still moderately diverse(blackworms, white/black/brown planaria, pond snails, ramshorns, MTS, daphnia, various copepods, ostracods, scuds, yellow var of cherry shrimp, isopods, Thai micro crab. Light was supplied by a dual tube PC fixture meant for reefing(one 10000K tube and 1 actinic). Just an air powered sponge filter.
> 
> The system ran very stable for a couple of years although diversity tended to successively diminish. Free swimming things like copepods and daphnia/moina etc... Faded out fairly quickly. I didn't see anyway of providing enough green water to keep their population going and they seem to lack the ability to self regulate in a resource limited environment.
> 
> ...


That fishless tank sounded very nice! I suspected that blackworms might be too temperature sensitive, but I didn't have enough info to go on.

If it's true that the black and brown planaria are harmless, that'd actually make them quite desirable to me. I'm always on the lookout for a good detritivore, but it'd probably be best to test the theory under controlled circumstances just to be sure (maybe an overfed shrimp tank, and a close eye on the shrimplets).

I never imagined that ostracods could be so voracious! I guess it pays to restrict them to tanks that have full grown fish instead, to keep the population in check.

Regarding the fish, I'll take a closer look. I'm willing to experiment, but losing my entire invertebrate fauna over a bad choice is where I draw the line, so thanks for the heads up. Whenever I wanna see if a fish is invert-safe, I usually search it's name together with "cherry shrimp", and check the resulting websites and forums, to let the people's experience guide me. Among my non-cleanup critter choices, cherry shrimp are as small as they get, so if they'd get eaten, it's too hostile for me.

I thought about a refugium many times, but while the concept could work in a lot of circumstances (and I have seen it for FW in other forums), the plants probably wouldn't do well with the resulting CO2 outgassing. I am going for a low-tech tank, but even easy species need some CO2 to be healthy, right? If there is a way to make it work, though, you have my attention.


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## fermentedhiker (Oct 28, 2011)

As I recall the ostracods didn't get out of control for quite sometime. I assumed something got out of balance. Either I had been overfeeding leading to a population explosion or something that was limiting their numbers died off. I wonder if something like glass/ghost shrimp would predate them? Dwarf crays seem like they would be too big. Thai micro crabs maybe. I used to see the micro crabs march up to a black worm and snip off the end of the worm that was sticking out of the substrate. Perhaps they were catching enough of the ostracods to prevent a population explosion(seems unlikely but I never replaced the crabs after the last one disappeared so maybe).

If you have/find any information on the freshwater nerite please post it.

Also if you achieve or find someone who has achieved success with freshwater sponges please do share it.

I may have to convert from 6 gallon edge(the only free tank ATM) to a similar project now that the bug has bitten me


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## Alyssa (Sep 16, 2011)

Just thinking that aquatic frogs and crabs and crawdads aren't the best mix ... pretty sure crawdads would avail themselves of the frogs when they were resting on the ground.


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## fermentedhiker (Oct 28, 2011)

Alyssa said:


> Just thinking that aquatic frogs and crabs and crawdads aren't the best mix ... pretty sure crawdads would avail themselves of the frogs when they were resting on the ground.



Thai micro crabs are too small to be a threat to anything bigger than young cherry shrimp, but you're right I wouldn't trust even CPO's to not at least attempt to take a piece of an ADF at night. During daylight the frogs would likely be safe enough but at night......


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## fermentedhiker (Oct 28, 2011)

I'm not sure about how to deal with the CO2 offgassing issue, I'll have to think about that.

As I see it the ideal setup(from my perspective of course) would be a 40 breeder display tank with a 20L(or 29 gallon) sump. The first section of the sump(normally for filter socks and protein skimmers would just be a detritus settling section along with a place to put heaters and probes etc... second section would replicate the "refugium" section of a reef tank with a deep mud bed(instead of a dsb) and some type of moss like java or subwassertang(in place of chaeto, and the last section would be for the return pump although it would have a much lower flow rate than is typical for a reef sump. Normally the chaeto fuge is on a reverse light schedule to aid in PH stabilization but I'm not sure if that carries over into a freshwater system which is not connected to a vast volume of water to stabilize it naturally. The next piece would be an ATO system to maintain the water level in the sump, but it would deviate from it's reefkeeping equivalent in being a bottom of the food chain culture(infusoria perhaps).

Light? for a low tech 40B I might go with two finnex stingrays, but that's just a thought.

Bump: The initial problem i see with this setup is space under the DT. There isn't enough room under a 36" tank, for a 30" sump and a 5 gallon bucket for an ATO. So perhaps a 15 High or a 20 extra high would have to do.

The other problem I see is possibly excessive input of the infusoria culture because of the ATO keeping up with the large amount of evap from a 40B.


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## SmokeyBlue (Oct 12, 2013)

fermentedhiker said:


> As I recall the ostracods didn't get out of control for quite sometime. I assumed something got out of balance. Either I had been overfeeding leading to a population explosion or something that was limiting their numbers died off. I wonder if something like glass/ghost shrimp would predate them? Dwarf crays seem like they would be too big. Thai micro crabs maybe. I used to see the micro crabs march up to a black worm and snip off the end of the worm that was sticking out of the substrate. Perhaps they were catching enough of the ostracods to prevent a population explosion(seems unlikely but I never replaced the crabs after the last one disappeared so maybe).
> 
> If you have/find any information on the freshwater nerite please post it.
> 
> ...


It occurs to me that maybe the predatory bugs were cyclops? I've heard the odd horror story or two of people using some species as fry food, only to have them turn on the fry. Or did you get to see them in action? In my tank, I think the ostracod's numbers would be controlled by whatever fish I end up choosing, but in a fishless tank, perhaps Fan Shrimp might eat them? Not sure, though. They aren't practically breedable, but they sure are nice.

(Breedable) FW Nerite Info (including some experiences on other forums):
* http://applesnail.net/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=17572&sid=6add05d5f112dee42f184a5fd5d4a1f5
* http://snailstales.blogspot.com/2007/01/new-year-new-snail-theodoxus.html
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodoxus_fluviatilis

FW Sponges:
Ptyochromis contributed some nice info earlier in this thread. I think they can be easily found in the wild in a few states. I won't be trying them (for now), 'cause they can be expensive from the Biological Supply houses (especially for a highly perishable creature), and I don't think there are any wild ones on this island. As for actual experiences and successes, we have these:
* http://www.petshrimp.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2970 (This was actually my reference page regarding my initial commentary on them).
* http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=39791 (An old local post I dug up).

And do post pics if you go for that tank. It'd be nice to see some results on the small scale; I imagine the challenges and results would be different than a big tank.



Alyssa said:


> Just thinking that aquatic frogs and crabs and crawdads aren't the best mix ... pretty sure crawdads would avail themselves of the frogs when they were resting on the ground.





fermentedhiker said:


> Thai micro crabs are too small to be a threat to anything bigger than young cherry shrimp, but you're right I wouldn't trust even CPO's to not at least attempt to take a piece of an ADF at night. During daylight the frogs would likely be safe enough but at night......


I had chosen the Cajun Dwarf Cray 'cause I heard it was more peaceful than the more colorful CPO. I read that it didn't harm shrimp or fish (even slow bottom dwellers), so I assumed a frog would be safe. I can't vouch for the Crabs, 'cause almost no-one has the aquatic FW ones (save for the Thai Micros, which are safe). I was planning to attempt Vampire Crabs with a floating plant platform, and I heard they were safe with quite a few critters. If forced to choose, I think I'd keep the frogs; community-safe arthropods aren't too uncommon in the hobby (Dwarf Shrimp come to mind), but tetrapods are hard to come by. I think Eastern Newts could hold their own, but they might just as easily snack on the inverts. I think more experiments are needed, 'cause I've heard both good and bad experiences in keeping inverts with them.



fermentedhiker said:


> I'm not sure about how to deal with the CO2 offgassing issue, I'll have to think about that.
> 
> As I see it the ideal setup(from my perspective of course) would be a 40 breeder display tank with a 20L(or 29 gallon) sump. The first section of the sump(normally for filter socks and protein skimmers would just be a detritus settling section along with a place to put heaters and probes etc... second section would replicate the "refugium" section of a reef tank with a deep mud bed(instead of a dsb) and some type of moss like java or subwassertang(in place of chaeto, and the last section would be for the return pump although it would have a much lower flow rate than is typical for a reef sump. Normally the chaeto fuge is on a reverse light schedule to aid in PH stabilization but I'm not sure if that carries over into a freshwater system which is not connected to a vast volume of water to stabilize it naturally. The next piece would be an ATO system to maintain the water level in the sump, but it would deviate from it's reefkeeping equivalent in being a bottom of the food chain culture(infusoria perhaps).
> 
> ...


That sounds like a great idea for the 'fuge, but if nutrient export is your goal, I'd forgo the slower-growing moss in favor of faster-growing plants, like Duckweed and Water Sprite; they might use up the CO2 with their growth, though. If it's just a refuge for critters, I imagine most any plant would do. Some people think 'fuges are a Nitrate trap, but that's because Macroalga take up nutrients from the water column; to use up the stuff that goes into the sand, they need seagrass. Luckily, there's no shortage of rooted plants in FW. As for the offgassing, maybe it's time someone tried a CO2-free tank. Maybe a few of the plants on the low-tech list would be able to handle such an environment without looking sickly. There's always excel, but I hear it does something to shrimp.

For the extra room, you could always go custom with your tank stand, if that's the problem. And if you have a good population of their predators in-tank, there's no such thing as too much infusoria. 

My current tank is an empty 50 gallon All Glass Aquarium with Aqueon Full Spectrum 15W T8's (the ones it came with), and a Fluval U4 internal filter with extra ceramic media. I'm not sure it was the best choice, but I needed a filter that wouldn't give an escape route to the inmates (lol), like the Hang-on-back type, and I heard good reviews for it. I was planning on getting rid of the carbon and filling its spot with extra bio media. If anyone's got some feedback on all this, I'd appreciate it.

Bump:

Bump:


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## SmokeyBlue (Oct 12, 2013)

Also, if anyone's interested, an experience with Sphaeriid Clams:
http://www.petshrimp.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2497&p=22925&hilit=sphaerium

Seems like a much better choice than the Golden Clams, which usually end up dying when kept in aquaria.


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## fermentedhiker (Oct 28, 2011)

SmokeyBlue said:


> Also, if anyone's interested, an experience with Sphaeriid Clams:
> http://www.petshrimp.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2497&p=22925&hilit=sphaerium
> 
> Seems like a much better choice than the Golden Clams, which usually end up dying when kept in aquaria.


They definitely show promise. I have a couple of golden clams in a hardwater community tank that I never see but presume to be still alive because they've never been dug up by anything looking for a meal.

As far as the fuge portion goes, yeah lots of options for what you could put in there. Not sure what would grow critters the best. Subwassertang for instance can grow quite fast if given enough light. My tendency would be towards what I had a consistent market for at a local pet shop. Help defray the cost of food etc...

In the past I had done research for a saltwater setup on xenia/aipstasia fuges. Some people were using them instead of protein skimmers. Also cryptic/dark fuges which catered to sponges and the like which seem to have the ability to absorb DOC. I wonder if the first second of the proposed sump fuge(where the heaters are) could house these clams. They would essentially polish the water. This would allow you to overdose the display with infusoria or green water or whatever you wanted without too much worry about polluting the DT because a large population would scrub the water in a matter of hours.


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## SmokeyBlue (Oct 12, 2013)

fermentedhiker said:


> They definitely show promise. I have a couple of golden clams in a hardwater community tank that I never see but presume to be still alive because they've never been dug up by anything looking for a meal.
> 
> As far as the fuge portion goes, yeah lots of options for what you could put in there. Not sure what would grow critters the best. Subwassertang for instance can grow quite fast if given enough light. My tendency would be towards what I had a consistent market for at a local pet shop. Help defray the cost of food etc...
> 
> In the past I had done research for a saltwater setup on xenia/aipstasia fuges. Some people were using them instead of protein skimmers. Also cryptic/dark fuges which catered to sponges and the like which seem to have the ability to absorb DOC. I wonder if the first second of the proposed sump fuge(where the heaters are) could house these clams. They would essentially polish the water. This would allow you to overdose the display with infusoria or green water or whatever you wanted without too much worry about polluting the DT because a large population would scrub the water in a matter of hours.


It's really hit or miss with those Golden Clams, so I'm glad yours are doing well.

It occurs to me that Duckweed and other floaters might not absorb dissolved CO2 'cause of their exposure to air, and they grow very fast, so they might make good nutrient export. And I've heard of a few people using Duckweed to culture critters (like Gammarus), so that's a plus. Not sure how well it'd do at market, but it seems to make good Tilapia food, so that's a possible market if you have any Aquaculture or Aquaponic farms nearby. A lot of species can feed off it actually (even humans, under the right circumstances), so at least it's practical.

The Xenia and Dark Fuges sound very interesting. I'll have to do a few searches on them, 'cause if the concept works, it would certainly help cut the cost on equipment. And that idea with the clams polishing the water sounds like a good solution to excess infusoria (if you could get such a prolific culture going).

Also, a minor update on possible insect candidates (previously restricted to Corixids) for the Freshwater Reef: http://www.dfg.ca.gov/biogeodata/cnddb/pdfs/invert/Insects_-_Misc/Capnia_lacustra.pdf
Apparently, it's a stonefly that spends it's entire life underwater, and I think it feeds on plants. Not sure what its water parameters are, but it seems to fit most of my criteria.


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## Maechael (Sep 9, 2012)

Float plants, duckweek would fall out of favor as it would. Clog pumps and other equipment.
Red root floater, frogsbit, and dwarf water lettuce would be much better candidates in my opinion.
The RRF could be predatorial possibly.

They all provide massive root structure for culturing smaller 'pods'

Thick plantings of high light plants would be a good idea if you planned on blasting with light.


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## SmokeyBlue (Oct 12, 2013)

Maechael said:


> Float plants, duckweek would fall out of favor as it would. Clog pumps and other equipment.
> Red root floater, frogsbit, and dwarf water lettuce would be much better candidates in my opinion.
> The RRF could be predatorial possibly.
> 
> ...


Predatorial? Not sure what you mean by that. If they grow fast, they can certainly be used for nutrient export, though you'd have to wash off the roots in the tankwater before removing them, or you'd end up removing the cultures along with them.

Underwater plants would be a problem, as these would remove dissolved CO2, which would already be low in a tank with a fuge, due to offgassing.


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## Maechael (Sep 9, 2012)

Sorry must have confused the RRF with another floating plant, there are some "milfoil" plants that are basically inverted venus flytraps. My bad.


Dissolved Co2 would be best used by plants whether top floaters, or underwater ones.
Would be more worried about oxygen levels in this situation, thinking that a fairly fast growing plant would aid in that. 

Is there a revised setup for this concept?


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## fermentedhiker (Oct 28, 2011)

Well floaters have access to atmospheric CO2 and so aren't limited by it's availability like fully aquatic plants are(partly at least why they can multiply so quickly).

they wouldn't work in a sump based system like I was referring to since the waterfalls created by the baffles would keep pulling them into the next section, but they would be valuable in the display.

I think you're right though. In a low flow system like this dissolved O2 might be limited especially at night. In the sump based system I'm thinking about you could run the refugium section on a reverse lighting schedule to help alleviate that though.

Lots of things to think about


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## Maechael (Sep 9, 2012)

Reversed lighting cycles makes most sense in closed loop systems in my mind.


Depending on the baffle arrangements you could hypothetically keep floaters, or anything really In a low flow refugium section. Flowering plants would add another level to this system as well.

Wish I had the resources to setup a full on system like this, beyond my sealed container.


Hope to see more active discussion here.


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## SmokeyBlue (Oct 12, 2013)

Reverse light cycles are definitely the way to go, if memory serves me. Helps keep several water parameters stable. Slotted baffles might be useful in keeping the floating plants where they belong.

Just how advantageous would a Deep Mud Bed be in a FW context? I know that's where the anaerobic bacteria turn nitrates into nitrogen, but if a substrate-stirring snail (like MTS) finds its way there, it could spell disaster. Sudden disturbance of anaerobic substrates leads to toxic gas dispersal into the water column, doesn't it? Or maybe I'm thinking of something else...

I recall a strange type of filter designed to culture such bacteria in SW or FW without much fuss, but I'm not sure they're all that necessary in FW. The bioload may be increased, but so is the number of plants meant to take advantage of those nutrients. Or perhaps they're not as efficient as I think they are... Any thoughts?

Bump: Also, a Fluidized Bed Filter might take care of the need for bacteria-culturing medium if you're short on sump space (though I don't really know how much space they take up to begin with).


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## Maechael (Sep 9, 2012)

Floaters allow for multiple tiers of plants, with a wider variety of light usages.

Brightest light hits floaters, which shade mid level plants, which in turn shade low light plants like mosses, or anubias.

Alternating light cycles allow for a more consistent uptake of nutrients, and a steadier ph value for the unit as a whole.


The clams being used as polishers would be neligible if they were to spawn no?

Perhaps a tumble section in the sump could be arranged, with a higher light moss, styled like a chaeto refugium addition from SW?


Filter feeding shrimp would seem to be a better choice for polishing over loads of infusoria and or rotifers.


It would seem that if the designer had use of a sectionable, or partitioned system they could house numerous other wise incompatible systems .


Thinking like thai micro crabs, smaller shrimps, select plants, and certain fish housed in, in tank refugiums.

Larger inverts, crays, flowershrimp, macrobrachoids, mid level and upper level fish, snails. Housed in a main or display openly.

fast growing stems and floaters In sump with mixed species community detrivores and omnivores, various pods, snails, in system rotifer and or green water cultures.


Separate linked systems for higher level animals, larger fish, frogs, large inverts, small mammals, newts, lizards, salamanders and such.



I think I may have to try my hand a micro version of this with materials on hand just to play around.


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## SmokeyBlue (Oct 12, 2013)

The plant tiers reminds me of Macroalga refugiums, in a way. They use quick-growing macros to solve intense nutrient issues quickly and constantly (drawback is they die back a little when the nutrients go down), moderate feeders for slower yet still consistent nutrient uptake with minimal dieback, and slow feeders that can go long periods in nutrient-poor systems while still doing their part. I'd imagine that the stronger the light, the more intense and constant the "feeding" (and growth) of the plants, the stronger the shade, the lesser the feeding requirements.

The clams don't pose a problem. It seems the Sphaeriids have a direct mating approach, and spit out fully-formed mini clams when they're ready. That's probably why they multiply so readily in an aquarium, and since they don't spawn directly into the water column, that turns into a non-issue. If you were to use FW Mussels on the other hand, the water and the fish gills would have a BIG problem on their hands.

Would a tumble section be as effective in a low-flow system? And can moss handle it as well as chaeto can? I'd imagine so, but a bit of confirmation wouldn't hurt.

I always thought of Filter-feeding Shrimp as being slow feeders. Capable of taking what they need from the water, but not really polishing large amounts of it. But I don't really have hands-on experience, so that was just speculation on my part.

As to the partitioned system, would that be incompatible by livestock, or by water chemistry? Never been able to figure out how to reconcile the latter (except for a highly complex FW SW paludarium plan I put on hold), but as to the former, I've read about a few SW systems where they had several different tanks plumbed together, and I planned a few such tanks myself (gonna wait 'till I'm out of college and get a job before I try it out). Some systems share a sump, but I saw one where it had a Reef Tank draining into a display refugium which then drained into the true sump. Very interesting, to say the least (I think it even had seahorses, if I'm not mistaken).

The linked system approach would probably go a long way to solving some Occam's Razor issues in my tank planning. I had to let go of a lot of prized fish from the list due to incompatibility issues, but I'd love to be able to give them a tank without sacrificing my shrimp and other inverts.

Also, how would one go about doing a Display Refugium in FW? One would think that it'd simply be a planted tank, but I'm thinking a little differently. Rather than the typical planted tank aesthetic, I'd like to try for an genuine refugium look, while still making it elegant and aesthetically pleasing. I've seen some pretty marine display refugiums that still keep the fuge look, and I've seen some marine planted tanks that look more like the FW ones.

Lemme know how the small scale experiments go. I may give it a go myself with my empty 5g branchiopod tank, but first I gotta finish setting up the big tank.


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## SmokeyBlue (Oct 12, 2013)

Found a couple of FW Sump/Refugium videos:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoW97qy0E50

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aglgNuQ94rs


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## fermentedhiker (Oct 28, 2011)

SmokeyBlue said:


> Reverse light cycles are definitely the way to go, if memory serves me. Helps keep several water parameters stable. Slotted baffles might be useful in keeping the floating plants where they belong.
> 
> Just how advantageous would a Deep Mud Bed be in a FW context? I know that's where the anaerobic bacteria turn nitrates into nitrogen, but if a substrate-stirring snail (like MTS) finds its way there, it could spell disaster. Sudden disturbance of anaerobic substrates leads to toxic gas dispersal into the water column, doesn't it? Or maybe I'm thinking of something else...
> 
> ...


My one thought about reverse light cycle is that it's purpose is to aid in PH stability which tends to drop when photosynthesis stops at night. This makes sense for saltwater tanks since the ocean's great volume acts as a buffer and keeps this from happening in the wild. I'm not sure the same holds true in freshwater environments because their relative volume and thus buffering capacity is so much smaller.

A deep mud bed is analogous to a DSB in marine aquariums. The depth allows for anaerobic and hypoxic environments. This allows for natural processes to perform NNR(nitrate reduction) as well as sulfur reduction. If you look through some of Walstad's book you'll notice that the sulfur dioxide that is so feared is actually process and break it down so it doesn't keep building up. MTS don't go deep enough to disturb pockets of gas( I have a deep mud bed in a 55 gallon aggressive tank and I've never had a catastrophic event in spite of MTS, Thiara, Bristlenose Plecos, and loaches).

I don't know that you really have to worry about having really good filtration in a system like this. If planted heavy enough they'll take care of most of it.


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## Maechael (Sep 9, 2012)

I have seen quite a few freshwater systems with reverse light cycles.
most seem to be larger carnivore tanks with sump filtration, or large planted tanks.

The direct breeding clams could be used as polishers.

The partitioned tank could hypothetically be used for different water chemistry, or different values.
The easier method would be just different portions for different creatures, I believe.


There are a few different gasses that could build up, not all are horror stories, but some can be dangerous to the inhabitants.

The moss system would require a filter before the moss itsself, otherwise detritus would build too fast for the tumbling action to compensate.


Nutrient export with floaters is easy as scooping out a handful.

And the tiered level system of plants could work just like the macro micro algae from SW.

The filter feeding shrimp as I understand are capable of feeding whenever they like in a standard tank, but in a tank overloaded with microorganisms and particulate matter, they should perch and feed frequently.


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## SmokeyBlue (Oct 12, 2013)

Found this on the web, and I thought I'd drop by to share it. One of the crabs I mentioned in the first post.

* Amarinus Lacustris - Freshwater Spider Crab

If anyone knows a source for these guys, please share it. Meanwhile, I've not found them for sale in any search I've tried. They don't really seem to be in the trade. Shame, since they seem to be just like the Thai Crabs, only bigger (slightly), more visible in behavior, and breedable.


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## Maechael (Sep 9, 2012)

I believe there has been progress in the breeding attempts of the thai micro crabs. I think Rachel O'leary aka mzjinkzd here has had quite a bit of experience.




Try looking for "Yabbie" Breeders in Australia, odds are they would have access to and be able to ship them out.


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## SmokeyBlue (Oct 12, 2013)

Maechael said:


> I believe there has been progress in the breeding attempts of the thai micro crabs. I think Rachel O'leary aka mzjinkzd here has had quite a bit of experience.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tip on the yabbie breeders.

So the Thais are breedable? I was starting to lose hope. Can they be bred in a community system, or do they require separation? Anything that can take care of its own populations in-tank is ideal for my tastes, but I wouldn't mind some additional challenge with harder-to-find species.


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## Maechael (Sep 9, 2012)

I believe the thai's are more or less kept to the same regimen as cherries, if you have enough it doesn't matter, but if in limited numbers predation will see to a micro extinction.


I believe I read some thread on the breeding of the thai's in fresh or perhaps slightly salted waters, such as one might keep livebearers or sulawesii shrimps in.


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