# Setting up a 20H Amazon Biotope



## James From Cali (Dec 15, 2006)

First off please choose something different then discus! They need much more room than a 20H can give. For the two I would say a 55g with a third Discus. 

Water Lettuce, Salvinia, Utricularia foliosa, Amazon Sword, and Vallisneria are some that come t mind for plants. Hatchetfish, bloodfin Tetras, Cories, and Rams are more suitable fish for this setup.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Pretty much any kind of sword plant. some nice manzanita wood would smulate tree roots nicely.


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## Krayon (Jan 31, 2008)

*thanks*



James From Cali said:


> First off please choose something different then discus! They need much more room than a 20H can give. For the two I would say a 55g with a third Discus.
> 
> Water Lettuce, Salvinia, Utricularia foliosa, Amazon Sword, and Vallisneria are some that come t mind for plants. Hatchetfish, bloodfin Tetras, Cories, and Rams are more suitable fish for this setup.


thanks for the fast reply.


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## Krayon (Jan 31, 2008)

ok so here are my current plans for livestock, i was thinking of keeping a school of neon tetras, cory catfish, and maybe 1 or 2 silver dollars . what do you guys think?

EDIT: also for plants i would like to keep Amazon Sword,Dwarf sword plant, and hairgrass, the substrate i will be using eco complete


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

No to the silver dollars too, no Angelfish either; nothing over 3" in length when full grown should be a good guideline. Dwarf South American Cichlids like the Blue Rams as suggested would be a good choice.


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## James From Cali (Dec 15, 2006)

Silver Dollars get too large for a 20g. They are also schooling fish and the minimum would be about a 55g aquarium as well. Neon Tetras, Cory's, couple of Oto's, and maybe some South American Dwarf Cichlid(Ram, certain Apistograma).

Find whats available and research the fish. Anything that gets over 6 inches sould not go in a 20g(most of the time).


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## Krayon (Jan 31, 2008)

thanks everyone for the info on the silver dollars, hmm i had not thought of Otos or rams. thanks for the great info!


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Also, look for species of Amazon Sword that are bred to be compact, otherwise most will quickly grow to fill the aquarium. I have a variety called 'compacta' that grows to about half the size of that aquarium foot print, which for an Amazon Sword is small.


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## James From Cali (Dec 15, 2006)

indiboi said:


> Also, look for species of Amazon Sword that are bred to be compact, otherwise most will quickly grow to fill the aquarium. I have a variety called 'compacta' that grows to about half the size of that aquarium foot print, which for an Amazon Sword is small.


Lower lighting will not make the sword grow very quickly.


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## Krayon (Jan 31, 2008)

James From Cali said:


> Lower lighting will not make the sword grow very quickly.


lower light. hmm... what is the minimum WPG for Amazon Sword,Dwarf sword plant, and hairgrass?


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

It's relative. I have one of the 'compacta' amazon swords and under only 15 watts of lighting it has filled half of the 10 gallon it is in, it did not take long, a couple months, that's without CO2 or supplemental ferts, only with the poo of a single fish. 

If the OP chose a standard variety that was not growth limited by genetics to the smaller size, he'd just have to tear it out when it finally did get too big.


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## Krayon (Jan 31, 2008)

hey, what do you guys think those plant grow bulbs?(link: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+13821+13827&pcatid=13827 ) are they worth getting, or just money down the drain?


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

I've never used them, but if I were to switch to T5 HO I would. I'm told by those that have used both those and the GE 9325K bulbs that they are very similar in light spectrum output. You'd probably want to balance out the purple/pink with yellow/white light though. I've found that the pink/purple of the GE bulbs can cause everything to look a bit... weird. It almost doesn't matter, as long as you're between 5000K and 10,000K ratings, just what looks best to you.


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## Krayon (Jan 31, 2008)

ok another noob question. for substrate, can i just use eco complete? or should i mix it with gravel? which would give me better results?


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

I just read this thread, here are my 2 cents.

1: Not only do silver dollars get to big for a 20H ( I Have 6 in my 180) they decimate plants.
2: Eco Complete is fine by itself. I am not a huge fan of mixing substrate.


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## James From Cali (Dec 15, 2006)

Krayon said:


> lower light. hmm... what is the minimum WPG for Amazon Sword,Dwarf sword plant, and hairgrass?


Amazon Swords=1.5-2wpg
Dwarf Sword Plant=unsure, but I would assume same as the Amazon/
Hairgrass=2-2.5wg



fshfanatic said:


> I just read this thread, here are my 2 cents.
> 
> 1: Not only do silver dollars get to big for a 20H ( I Have 6 in my 180) they decimate plants.
> 2: Eco Complete is fine by itself. I am not a huge fan of mixing substrate.


Agreed.


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## kornphlake (Dec 4, 2007)

Since it sounds like this is your first planted tank, maybe your first aquarium ever, I'd suggest starting with some easy to grow plants and hardy fish and as you gain experience move toward a biotope. Java fern and Java Moss grow anywhere and don't care what substrate you have because they grow attached to rocks and driftwood, those would be my first two recommendations. Anachris is a fast growing stem plant that isn't too demanding, Vallisineria is pretty undemanding once it gets established it really takes off. I've had good luck with Rotala, Ludwigia and Cryptocoryne species as well. I've never had much luck with swords, of course it seems like they are always near dead when I see them in the shops so maybe that makes a difference too.

Any of the livebearers are pretty hardy fish, cories are good when kept in groups, many of the tetras are easy to keep (I've never had much luck with neons though.) Danios, white clouds and many of the smaller barbs would work too. Cichlids aren't necessarily difficult to keep, but rams in particular can be tricky and their lifespan is generally accepted to be less than 2 years in captivity. I don't know much about apistos, I believe there are a few hardy species but you'd be limited to a single pair no matter what cichlid you choose.


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## Krayon (Jan 31, 2008)

kornphlake said:


> Since it sounds like this is your first planted tank, maybe your first aquarium ever, I'd suggest starting with some easy to grow plants and hardy fish and as you gain experience move toward a biotope. Java fern and Java Moss grow anywhere and don't care what substrate you have because they grow attached to rocks and driftwood, those would be my first two recommendations. Anachris is a fast growing stem plant that isn't too demanding, Vallisineria is pretty undemanding once it gets established it really takes off. I've had good luck with Rotala, Ludwigia and Cryptocoryne species as well. I've never had much luck with swords, of course it seems like they are always near dead when I see them in the shops so maybe that makes a difference too.
> 
> Any of the livebearers are pretty hardy fish, cories are good when kept in groups, many of the tetras are easy to keep (I've never had much luck with neons though.) Danios, white clouds and many of the smaller barbs would work too. Cichlids aren't necessarily difficult to keep, but rams in particular can be tricky and their lifespan is generally accepted to be less than 2 years in captivity. I don't know much about apistos, I believe there are a few hardy species but you'd be limited to a single pair no matter what cichlid you choose.


thanks for the advice. no this is far from my first tank, i have been keeping reef tanks for quite a few years,but never has a Planted FW. so yah this is my first planted tank, but not my first tank ever.


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## psybock (Jan 12, 2007)

As for a SA biotope here is my advice:

Tetras - most tetras that come from SA have a community appeal, neons are normal choices b/c of their color, but you also have the skirts, serpae, green tetras and so on, but remember they are all schooling fish.


Livebearers - most of them come from the southeast USA to the Amazon, guppies are known to inhabit cichlid waters, so get some feeder guppies that would look more natural (just quarantine them b/c they are usually stressed).

Dwarf Cichlids - smaller and with less attitude than the larger cousins, however still have the personality of their larger cousins. However, the "fancy" strains (especially of apisto's like double reds or oranges) tend to be expensive, for instance cockatoo cichilds can range from $16 - $50 a pair, with the lower being the common and the upper being the fancies.

Catfish - there are multitudes of catfish that can be a part of this biotope. Cories are the best community fish, they can be as diminuitive as the pygmy cories to the size of the larger emeralds and such. Of course Otos are great algea eaters as well, there are also smaller plecos species that don't grow over 6 inches. But for the size sake keep smaller cats, maybe even find some wood cats.


Those are just the main fish groups I would suggest, however there is such a wide range of fish to choose from. With the exception of the cichlids, most of these fish are either shoaling or schooling fish so plan accordingly.

As far as plants, I second everyone who speaks of getting smaller swords. However I must say that my Radican swords have grown to the top of my 30 gallon, but stayed small enough in a 10 gallon. Vals and Apongetons are good choices. Lilies would work too, there are lilies in parts of the amazon. However, I'm not to sure of stem plants that would work.

Are you going to stain the water? If so then placing unsoaked (but cured) driftwood would allow the tannins to leak out. Also, indian almond leaves would give you the same result, and they would place leaf litter on the tank floor so that fish could use it to hide and such. You could either have a suken tree trunk or branchy/root effect, just depends on what you would like.

Just remember, the Amazon is not just a slow flowing river, there are rapids, backwaters, fast channels, slow backwaters, and the river can either be white or black water types...so just choose accordingly.....


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## Krayon (Jan 31, 2008)

psybock said:


> As for a SA biotope here is my advice:
> 
> Tetras - most tetras that come from SA have a community appeal, neons are normal choices b/c of their color, but you also have the skirts, serpae, green tetras and so on, but remember they are all schooling fish.
> 
> ...



Thank you soo much for so much info!:icon_surp and yes i was planning on staining the water, so thanks for the info


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## Krayon (Jan 31, 2008)

ok, another question, being a newb to Planted tanks,what brand/type of CO2 system should i get? i was thinking of getting the Turbo CO2 Bio-System what do you guys think?


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## CmLaracy (Jan 7, 2007)

btw, silver dollars will devour all plant life present in the tank in under an hour, they'll make a nice salad bar out of em


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## Krayon (Jan 31, 2008)

CmLaracy said:


> btw, silver dollars will devour all plant life present in the tank in under an hour, they'll make a nice salad bar out of em


lol yah, dont worry i am not goin to get them.


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## James From Cali (Dec 15, 2006)

For not even half of that you can set up a DIY CO2 system. That is just a fancy DIY system with a pretty label. All you need is a 2 liter soda bottle, some air line tubing, a drill(optional, prefered), silicone(depends on drill), airstone, yeast, sugar, and water. You can search the forums for exact recipes and setups.

How much light are you going to have on this tank? If you use the standard lighting on the tank you are very very limited. I would push for at least 1 wpg(or 20 watts of light over your aquarium) if you do not want to go pressurized co2(which you may need at about 3 wpg).


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## Krayon (Jan 31, 2008)

James From Cali said:


> For not even half of that you can set up a DIY CO2 system. That is just a fancy DIY system with a pretty label. All you need is a 2 liter soda bottle, some air line tubing, a drill(optional, prefered), silicone(depends on drill), airstone, yeast, sugar, and water. You can search the forums for exact recipes and setups.
> 
> How much light are you going to have on this tank? If you use the standard lighting on the tank you are very very limited. I would push for at least 1 wpg(or 20 watts of light over your aquarium) if you do not want to go pressurized co2(which you may need at about 3 wpg).


the tank will have 72 wats of light(2 36 wat bulbs)


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## James From Cali (Dec 15, 2006)

Thats over 3 wpg. I would look into pressurized but it is costly. You would also need to get some dry ferts as well.


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## Krayon (Jan 31, 2008)

yah i know, so i was thinking of Flourish Tabs for dry ferts, and CO2 Pro Systems


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Flourish Tabs are a totally different sort of thing from what James was referring to there by the phrase 'dry ferts.'

Dry ferts in our context is powder form KNO3, K2SO4, KH2PO4. Those dry chemicals are then used to fertilize the water column. 

You will need CO2 with that level of light intensity, I highly discourage paintball systems; for a nominal increase a superior standard cylinder system can be purchased. In fact, for the cost of the 'Pro' system there I had a standard regulator and full 5lb cylinder. You will need water column fertilization instead of/or in addition to root fertilization (which is for the most part unnecessary), which is what James meant.


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## Krayon (Jan 31, 2008)

hmm ok being new to planted tanks, do you guys think i should get a Lower wattage light? I currently have a 20 wat light, 36 watt light, and a 72 wat light, at my disposal, should i downgrade from the 72 watt to the 36 watt light until i get more expierence in planted tanks?


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

It depends on your goals. If you can manage a reef tank, you can manage a high(er) light planted tank. The skills are similar, managing nutrients, etc. That comparison is quite valid though, I think, your high light plant tank is like your high light SPS tank, it just needs more attention.


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## Krayon (Jan 31, 2008)

ok, well i think i will switch to the 36 watt, until i get a little more expierence,(i will add the 72 eventually but for now ill use the 36)

ok so here is my current list of supplies:
Whisper 40 HOB filter
maxijet 600 pump/powerhead
20lbs of Eco-Complete
36 watt light
DIY CO2
Driftwood/bogwood

ok so how does that sound? am i missing anything? also are there any good DIYs i should do? sry for all the question, but i want to make sure i get everything right.

also what fish would you reccomend?

thanks in advance:fish:

also, i


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## ZooTycoonMaster (Jan 2, 2008)

Are you sure you want a Whisper filter and not AquaClear? I personally like AquaClears, but it's up to you.

I think the equipment sounds fine! Is the powerhead for diffusing the CO2 or just for circulation?

For fish, I'd say some tetras, cory cats....that's the only thing in my mind right now....


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## Krayon (Jan 31, 2008)

ZooTycoonMaster said:


> Are you sure you want a Whisper filter and not AquaClear? I personally like AquaClears, but it's up to you.
> 
> I think the equipment sounds fine! Is the powerhead for diffusing the CO2 or just for circulation?
> 
> For fish, I'd say some tetras, cory cats....that's the only thing in my mind right now....


thanks for the tips, i was planning on using the, but do have an aquaclear as a backup, and the powerhead is for diffusing C02.


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## Krayon (Jan 31, 2008)

ok, for my fish i was thinking of having a school of 10 cardinal tetras, and 2 otos, and 2 corys what do you think? to much/little?


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Cories are social fish, I'd add about 4 more, but otherwise seems pretty good.


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## Krayon (Jan 31, 2008)

thansk for the advice indiboa, ok so i think i will have 10 cardinals, 6 cories, and 2 otos.

ok another question about cycling the tank. how long should i wait for the tank to cycle before adding the plants? or should i add the plants right after setting up the tank?


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## mugirl08 (Nov 15, 2005)

Rex Grigg's site has a wealth of information about planted tanks ( www.rexgrigg.com ) I found this article on his site about cycling a planted tank: http://www.rexgrigg.com/cycle.htm 
From what I've gathered on this site, a hob filter will disturb the water too much for the purposes of injecting co2 and will degas the water very quickly. I am not sure about this and I would definitely check if i were you  Good luck! 
Rachel


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Well, opinions vary on that. I like to do a traditional fishless cycle period, which tends to be about a month. It allows me to work out any difficulties before I add any fish or plants. 

It is possible to start right away with a few fish and lots of plants provided you're doing a the higher light, Co2 injection, all from the very start too. In that theory any ammonia will be sucked up by the plants, instead of killing the fish.


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## Madfish (Sep 9, 2007)

Or you can always cycle your tank by planting it and putting in a very small and cheep feeder fish. If they die your not out alot. In a 20H I would look into like 4-5 cheep feeders to do it. Then when they are done cycling they tank and havent died off you can always find someone that will take them off of your hands to feed there fish with. But just remember to add your fish slow to many of them at once will put a large stress on your bio load and then you will get a ammonia spike that will kill them all off. Best of luck and remember it takes time to make your tank look like the ones in the pictures that you see. And that is part of the fun of this is watching them grow.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Be careful about using feeder fish to cycle a tank. It is not uncommon for feeder fish to carry disease and parasites more than the normal population of fish. It may never happen, but why take a chance, especially if it could put you back and force you to start over. I would just pack the tank with plants including some floating plants and fast growing stem plants that you could trim back later. I have tried cycling with fish, fishless cycling with ammonia, and cycling with plants. Cycling with plants works the best. I found that the tank often cycled in 3-5 days vs 3 weeks with other methods. Just make sure that you start with healthy plants and give them the proper care or it could backfire. 

You probably already know about the different methods of cycling a tank, but here is a good article about the pros and cons of different methods of cycling.
http://www.aquariumboard.com/forums/articles/26.htm

Also, I have to really wonder about the claims of Eco-Complete having active/ live cycling bacteria or waste eating bacteria.. Most reputable products for cycling like bio-spira require refrigeration. So, if Eco-Complete is infused with cycling bacteria and is not refridgerated and sits on shelves for got knows how long, I would really question the effectiveness of those bacteria by the time you get the bag and setup your tank. You may just be putting dead useless bacteria in the tank.


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## psybock (Jan 12, 2007)

Oto's are social as well, you would need more of them in there, make it like 5 or 6.


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