# At my wits end-----need help:(



## putty (Nov 19, 2003)

Your nitrates are a little low for the CO2/light levels...try boosting to about 10ppm...this seems to help in a lot of cases by giving the plants the right mix of nutrients. Once the plants kick in, the algae will not be able to compete.


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## djlen (Sep 14, 2003)

Are you dosing N and P or are they a product of the tank? If you are dosing, are you dosing K, Traces, etc?
What's your plant mass like? In other words, how much of the substrate is covered with plants? Example: 5 plants in a 125 will not do the job of competing with algae unless the nutrients are balanced for that environment, and fish load.
In many instances, in a newly set up tank(which yours is), the optimum way to start is to stuff it with as many fast growing plants as possible. The theory being that the plants will use the available nutrients and the algae will have little or none.
You(or your fish) are supplying more nutrients than the plant mass can use. This must change or you will continue to experience algae issues.
Water changes, and blackouts are effective on many forms of algae(NOT BBA), but until you get a handle on your imbalance(nutrients/plant mass/fish load?) you will see a re-occurrence of the problem.

Len


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## jstemple (Dec 31, 2003)

I'm not dosing anything at the moment. As far as plant mass, I would say that more than 50% of the substrate is covered. There have been this many plants in there since day 1. The plants are growing, they just look like crap with this stuff all over them. Even with the epidemic of algae, I'm still pruning a 2.5 gallon bucket of plants every two weeks!! I think that is a sufficient load. I just rechecked the phosphates and it looks like they've changed and are around 0.5 PPM but the nitrates are still at 5 PPM. 
Jeff


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## trenac (Feb 15, 2004)

Here is a link to ID algae... http://www.plantgeek.net/article_viewer.php?id=9

See if you can tell which algae you have and let us know. Depending on the algae you have depends on the method of treatment. 

One thing I see is you do need to raise nitrates to 10ppm and keep phosphates at 1ppm. Also try to increase your CO2 output a bit.

How long are your lights on daily?

What is your water change schedule?


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## jstemple (Dec 31, 2003)

After checking out the link suggested by trenac, it looks like I have beard algae (except mine is brown and not green) and brush algae.

My lights are on from 10 AM to 10 PM and I change 25% of the water once a week. Hope this helps y'all help me. Thanks.


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## djlen (Sep 14, 2003)

If you are talking about BBA(Black Brush Algae) you need to clean it out wherever you find it. It will probably be on everything, but more predominant on the slower growing plants and where the water runs faster. It loves current. It should be ugly, fairly long and stringy, and really tough.....hard to pull off of the plants. You'll probably find it on your filter return as well.
If it matches that description it's BBA.
This is a tough 'algae' to remove.
Respond with as to whether that's what you have and I'll tell you what has worked for me. It's involved, and I don't want to write it all out unless that's what it is.
Further, you only have two watts/gal. so depending on your fish load, you may not need to do a lot of fert. dosing, in conjunction with your CO2 to keep it clean and nice.
Just regular water changes and a balanced fert. regimen.
But you've got to get rid of the BBA if that's what you've got.

Len


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## trenac (Feb 15, 2004)

Brush algae, that is some fun stuff. First pick as much off as possible by hand, on badley affected leaves cut them off and you my have to do a bleach/water dip on plants as a last resort. Also remove gravel that BBA is on and any decor like rocks/wood scrub it off. Do this before a water change so any thing that is in the water can be sucked out.

The BBA that I have dealt with have been short black/gray tuffs. Thay are smaller where attached and gets larger toward the end.


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## jstemple (Dec 31, 2003)

Hey DJLEN,
That sounds exactly like what I have. Does it grow in "sheets" on the gravel? If so, that's it. I actually cut lots of the plants down to help get rid of it, but after a few days growth they were covered again.


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## djlen (Sep 14, 2003)

Not sure that what you've got is BBA. The 'sheets' comment doesn't sound right.
BBA, starts as fuzzy tendrils on the edges of leaves and then grows all over the leaf.
I've had it on the substrate, but wouldn't call it 'sheets'.
For BBA, once your sure that's what it is:
First check for the availability of SAEs in your area and know that you can get one or two after the below treatment.
Mix up a batch of water/bleach solution at the rate of 25:1 in a bucket(25:1 will kill BBA dead and is gentler than 19:1). Fill another bucket with fresh water with a triple dose of whatever Tap Water Conditioner you are using.
Pull all plants, rocks and, in short, everything out of the tank except fish and substrate. This includes filters and heaters.
Dip plants in water/bleach solution: tender plants(Val.) 45 seconds; hardy plants(anubia)1.5-2.0mins. In order to watch the time, only a few plants can be dipped at a time. Immediately after time is up, rinse well under the faucet and immediately into the freshwater/tap water conditioner mix. Let them sit in it and move on to the next batch of plants for dipping, rinsing and into the conditioner until all plants are dipped and into the conditioned water. 
Now put the rocks, wood, heater(s) into the bleach solution and let them sit.
WASH YOUR HANDS-THEY'LL SMELL LIKE BLEACH-NOW DIP THEM INTO THE CONDITIONED FRESH WATER CONTAINING THE PLANTS TO REMOVE ALL TRACES OF BLEACH!!
Go to the tank, which should now contain only fish and substrate. First scrub the sides down thoroughly, removing all traces of BBA. Try to cover all areas.
Gravel siphon as much of the surface of gravel as possible. You don't have to go deep(1/2" is fine), but try to cover as much area as possible. Continue siphoning out the water as much as reasonably possible. I have done 90% water changes on tanks during this treatment with no problem. Re-fill.
BBA is a spore borne plant and the more spores you remove, the tougher it will be for it to come back. Hence, the thoroughness of the treatment.
Wash hands and now you're ready to float your plants in the re-filled tank. Or if you'd rather plant, and then place the rocks/wood, do that.
Remove the wood/rocks/ornaments from the bleach bath, rinse well and place into the conditioned water. Filters can be bleach bathed, but remove the pads and other media. You don't want to bleach out your media. 
Let wood and very porous rocks sit in the conditioned water for some extra time. 
Obviously, anything that is bleached, must be well washed and dipped into conditioner including your hands, before re-placing into the tank.
If you use it, jack up the CO2 and start your fertilization program back up. High CO2 and fast growing plants will combat BBA.
Once everything is clean and back into the tank, you have a choice to make. You either want to invest in one or two SAEs or not. If you do all of the above, and pick up the SAEs, you will probably not have a re-occurrence of BBA.
Without the SAEs your odds on complete success drop some. I advise getting the fish. They are insurance against a re-occurrence. BTW, the reason for not just getting the SAEs in the first place is that they won't eat the old established BBA, but will chow down on any new growth.
I have done this on my own tanks and for others and it has worked every time. It's a PITA to do, but the alternative is to be stuck with the algae.

Len


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## jstemple (Dec 31, 2003)

DJLEN,
Thanks for the long reply. I took all plants out today and did as you suggested. A lot of the BBA came off after soaking in bleach water, but there was still quite a bit left on the plants. I noticed after soaking in my "treated" water, that the BBA had turned a pale brown color. I have cleaned the tank thoroughly and did a 75% water change. I replanted everything after filling the tank back up. I'll let you know how things go. Thanks for the help.
jstemple


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## pixelcrayon (Mar 24, 2004)

a safer solution to bleach is perixoide. do a search for the exact dosage. cant remember of the top of my head. in a heavy planted tank, such as mine, when you DONT wanna be up rooting plants, i used a eye dropper with the perxiode solution on the affected area directly on the tank. i do a water change right after treatment. this technique worked for me. no plant lost and no fish lost. and i do have several otos in the tank as well as shrimps. i also added some sae which help. i have not had a recurrence of the "plague"


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## djlen (Sep 14, 2003)

It's involved, but will work for you. The BBA that's left will dissolve in a few days.
GET THE SAEs or you may see a return of the BBA. It's almost impossible to get all the spores and they will take care of the new stuff that may re-grow.

Len


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## jstemple (Dec 31, 2003)

Well, the BBA is back. I have looked everywhere in a 100 mile radius and can't find any SAEs. The tank looked really nice on friday after I "bleached" everything on thursday. Came home this afternoon (monday), and the bottom of the tank was covered again and at least half the plants too. I checked my water and found the following:

NO3 = 5 PPM
PO4 = 1 PPM
Iron = 0 PPM
pH 6.9

I just don't know what to do except water changes until I can either get rid of this crap, or find some SAEs. Thanks for the help. Anything else? :icon_frow


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## fedge (Mar 4, 2004)

Just how LONG has this tank been running with the plants it has it in it now??? I would let the plants grow up.. don't prune.. get the nutrients under balance...NO TRACE ELEMENTS--unless you have the majority (over 50%) plants older than 2 months. Only K, N, P, and some Mg(very little). The plants WILL eventually out compete the algae...and one day it will start to starve off..otherwise you are just feeding the problem. "cleaning" the plants IMHO will NOT help at all... it may cause the plants to go into "shock" (like when they ship plants in a box for two days to your house) during which time they will live off the stored nutrients and NOT take it from the water much if at all. THEN OF COURSE algae will win out again!!! Just be very patient (took my tank a couple of months to get where it is now) and wait let the plants grow to a jungle.. fill in all the empty spots... let it set...change water weekly...monitor chems.. add the nessasary ferts. Otherwise you are just making your head hurt and getting disgussted for nothing. Nature takes time!!


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## jstemple (Dec 31, 2003)

Fedge,
I appreciate the comments. The tank has been set up with all of these plants since january. They were doing pretty well until about a month ago when the BBA started "appearing". The plants had only been pruned a couple of times in the last six months until they were all completely uprooted last week. The water conditions posted in the previous post have been the same for at least the last 2 months.


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## fedge (Mar 4, 2004)

Maybe you need more micro nutrients???... boy im at a loss.... Do you dose them... Do you dose K... anything.. do your plants look deficient at all.. holes in leaves.. yellow leaves (that recieve enough light). etc


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## djlen (Sep 14, 2003)

BBA is a spore-borne algae. Once it gets a foot hold it is very difficult to get rid of.
Had you been able to introduce SAEs, you would not have the return out break you are experiencing. It needs to be manually removed/pruned out. Cleanliness is the key.......plus SAEs.
Look on-line for sources for them. 
I have had this problem and know what you are going through. Nutrient changes will have little or no affect on this algae. You can't 'out-compete' it. It must be removed. Then get the plants growing well, keep the tank clean and you will beat it.

Len


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I somewhat disagree to the suggested method of trying to remove and bleach and clean and all that. There is no way you can remove all algae and spores, even if you start over there is no guarantee that it will not be back any day.
I can't say exactly what was it that worked for me, but I think patience has a lot to do with it. If the major parameters (NO3, PO4, CO2) are in the right ranges, waiting it out, while doing everything possible to keep plants growing might be a better way.
As you noticed, cleaning a plant or two will be a very temporary joy, as the algae will have it cover just as quick as you stick it back in.
The trick is really to let the algae explode, and wait until they will use up that specific nutrient combination that made them grow in the first place.
You might have to look at a brown muddy mess for several months. I dealt with that... I didn't even know the color of my flourite anymore, until one day it started to show up again! This was a 3 or 4 month period, not easy, but... now the tank is immune, and the flourite looks like I just put it inside, or my wood shrimp gave it an intense brushing.
Another thing you might want to try if you have the "sheets" of algae... It could be BGA, even though it doesn't look like exactly like it. In this case you could try a treatment with Erythromycin which will knock them out.


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## djlen (Sep 14, 2003)

Yes, the bleaching process will not be an end all, in and of itself, however as I mentioned, the addition of fish that will eat new BBA growth can/will prevent it's return.
IMO, there is no reason for anyone to sit for 'several months' and look at any type of algae, new tank or old. 
Yes, new tanks are prone to algae blooms, but there are ways to deal with all of them effectively, depending on the conditions/parameters of the tank.
It also requires work at removing algae and general tank maintenance.


Len


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