# Cloud Mountain Minnows dying one by one



## reignOfFred (Jun 7, 2010)

Treating the fish blindly with medication without knowing the problem is as likely to kill your fish as anything. Temperature is not the problem, I have kept them long term in tropical settings. I have found my white clouds did exceptionally better in a 25 gallon tank then they did in a 10. That's about all I can tell you.


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## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

What are your water parameters? How often do you do water changes?


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## captmicha (Jul 12, 2009)

> What are your water parameters? How often do you do water changes?


It doesn't matter. My water quality is excellent, I said that. I have hardly any bioload since this tank has just been housing one fish and one salamander before the two new minnows went in it. 

I do water changes about once a week.


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## captmicha (Jul 12, 2009)

Treating them with medication as preventative measure is not just as likely to kill my fish as anything if the species isn't particularly sensitive to chemicals. 

Now my three year old minnow is dying and no one helped.


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## astrosag (Sep 3, 2010)

Sorry to hear that. Don't expect any internet source to solve every conceivable problem you may have. Sometimes there's little you can do in the short amount of time that all this bad stuff takes place. Also this forum is really a privilege, not an entitlement. 

"water parameters are perfect" doesn't give anyone a sense of what they are because even amongst these highly experienced people, there's not one agreed upon standard or set of levels that is considered perfect. Aside from ammonia, nitrites and nitrates, everything else can vary from person to person. 

"I do water changes about once a week" - it's good to know that you do perform water changes and it does help to know that but what would help more is to know exactly how big each of those water changes are (50%? 30%? 10%?). 

The more info you give (as in numbers) the easier it is for people to help you. Remember, none of us are there with you in your room to analyze the situation.

Hope your original minnow makes it though.

Although I'm not versed in fish diseases (nor have I experienced any yet), I would say the least you can do is perform a large water change. Its either something in the tank or something the fish from Petsmart brought with them. I do know that some people use general medicine even in QT tanks just to make sure nothing endangers their established livestock. 

I would go to Petsmart though with a sample of your tank water and tell them that your water is at the right levels and yet every fish, including your 3 year old minnow died as soon as you brought their fish home. From my experience with Petsmart, they'll compensate you. It won't reverse the damage but it is something.

Good luck.


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## shane3fan (Nov 2, 2009)

Ive had a similar experience with the WCMMs Ive had. They appeared healthy when I got them, but they have been dropping at the rate of one every couple of weeks. No other fish deaths, just the WCMMs. Mine stop eating and then waste away. I have other fish in the same tank, no problems with them--just the WCMMs-----oh, and otos, but that is a different story.


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## captmicha (Jul 12, 2009)

> "water parameters are perfect" doesn't give anyone a sense of what they are because even amongst these highly experienced people, there's not one agreed upon standard or set of levels that is considered perfect. Aside from ammonia, nitrites and nitrates, everything else can vary from person to person.


It means ammonia is 0, nitrites are 0, nitrates are 0, chlorine is 0, etc. I've been keeping fish for over 10 years and have learned a little something in those years.

I don't think Petsmart will compensate me because I don't have the receipt anymore. And the minnow that I've formed an emotional attachment to is monetarily worthless. A dime a dozen to Petsmart but I've had this little guy/girl for about 3 years. The money isn't the issue. 



> Ive had a similar experience with the WCMMs Ive had. They appeared healthy when I got them, but they have been dropping at the rate of one every couple of weeks. No other fish deaths, just the WCMMs. Mine stop eating and then waste away. I have other fish in the same tank, no problems with them--just the WCMMs-----oh, and otos, but that is a different story.


I wish these chain stores would stop selling sick animals. Every WCMM and dwarf frog I've gotten from them have died. Every single one. Except for the one WCMM I have left. 

I think I'll take my 3 year old now dead GoldCMM to the Petsmart I got the WCMM from and make them look at it and tell them what I think about them selling sick stock. Money doesn't matter. It's the lives that matter, no matter how cheaply they come from the fish farms or wild where they get them from.

I wish I could have predicted what was going to happen in the future and saved every one of the WCMM corpses to bring to Petsmart.


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## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

How long did you quarantine the fish? If they all died off except for 2 of then I would have kept those remaining 2 in quarantine for quite a long time.

Also, nitrates are rarely 0 unless you have a heavily planted tank. Have you actually tested the water or you just assuming all your levels are 0?

When I buy new fish I keep the bag they came in and if ANY die in quarantine they go in that bag and in the freezer to be returned before the 2 weeks guarantee is up.


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

I quit bringing back my dead PetSmart fish because the replacements would die, then their replacements, etc. I'll just stick to my local LFS from now on. None of his have died yet. OTOH all fish will die eventually. Everyone should have a quarantine tank setup for new arrivals to stay in for days to make sure they don't take out the rest of your fish.


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## captmicha (Jul 12, 2009)

> How long did you quarantine the fish? If they all died off except for 2 of then I would have kept those remaining 2 in quarantine for quite a long time.


2 weeks and then the dying stopped so I kept them in quarantine for one more week. I really needed that tank as some puffers were picking on my community tank fish (I knew there was a large chance that they would do that but it was impossible to pass them by without at least giving them a try).

I know I should have waited more than just 1 week after the dying stopped but I was really tired and not really thinking that clearly.

audioaficionado: I'm never going to buy livestock from a chain store again. LFS are more expensive (in this area at least) but I'm hoping they have healthier livestock.


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## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

audioaficionado said:


> I quit bringing back my dead PetSmart fish because the replacements would die, then their replacements, etc. I'll just stick to my local LFS from now on. None of his have died yet. OTOH all fish will die eventually. Everyone should have a quarantine tank setup for new arrivals to stay in for days to make sure they don't take out the rest of your fish.


I have no LFS close by so all my fish come from the big chains. Overall they do alright but quarantine is a must for new fish from anywhere unless I personally know the person they're coming from.


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## reignOfFred (Jun 7, 2010)

> Treating them with medication as preventative measure is not just as likely to kill my fish as anything if the species isn't particularly sensitive to chemicals.


Those medications are very stressful on the fish, therefor treating weakened fish unnecessarily can end up doing more harm then good. That's true whether you believe it or not.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

In a planted, low bio-load tank, you can have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and 0 nitrate, and still have a large amount of pollution in your tank. Especially if you are not doing large, regular water changes.


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## kevgsp (Mar 7, 2011)

captmicha said:


> I know I should have waited more than just 1 week after the dying stopped but I was really tired and not really thinking that clearly.


:icon_idea


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## captmicha (Jul 12, 2009)

> In a planted, low bio-load tank, you can have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and 0 nitrate, and still have a large amount of pollution in your tank. Especially if you are not doing large, regular water changes.


How? What pollution would there be there??

I said I do do regular water changes.



> Those medications are very stressful on the fish, therefor treating weakened fish unnecessarily can end up doing more harm then good. That's true whether you believe it or not.


That's your opinion and I respect your right to have it but I don't have to agree. 

And if all the fish are dying, it's hardly treating them unnecessarily.


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## fresh.salty (Jul 2, 2010)

Most of the minnows I see at Persmart don't look healthy to begin with. Sunken bellies and twisted bodies.

I got lucky once and they had new stock that looked ok and colored up nice in my tank. I still don't think they live as long in the warmer temps. 2-3 years for me anyway.


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

Well since you haven't nor are doing anything wrong with your tank, you must just have bad fish. Better luck on the next batch.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

captmicha said:


> How? What pollution would there be there??
> 
> I said I do do regular water changes.


Dissolved Organic Compounds, read below

http://www.plantgeek.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8356&sid=2ac991703b018d2135ba274eb06b2b7a


A few people have had to ask more than once to get information out of you about your tank. These are basic things that need to be known in order to help form an opinion of possible problems. You still have not told how often or how large the water changes are, nor have you mentioned any ferts you may be adding for the plants. Many things can contribute to poor fish health. If you have high evaporation, and you are topping of with crappy tap water, then you are having a buildup of whatever is in the water that is not being consumed by the plants, like copper, lead, etc. I do 60% to 70% water changes weekly with tap water, but top off with distilled water.


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