# What's wrong with my fish?



## Guest (Mar 8, 2008)

So my water was been sort of cloudy today.

I'm looking at my Cardinal Tetras, and there back tails look like they are going away? They look missing? What's going on??


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

Sounds like either fin rot or they are being nipped at by other fish.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

really? Take a picture if you can...
But if you're right, that's fin rot.. Treat them with meds.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2008)

Yikes - how the heck does that happen?

And I have some pimafix - is that good stuff?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

try maracyn 1 or 2, they both work on fin rot and remove other fungus's from the water......fin rot isn't really lethal, unless it is there for like 2 weeks without treatment. If you don't have the Maracyn at your lfs, try and get API fungus cure, but it turns your water bright green for 5 days, then you put in fresh carbon and it goes away. For further protection, get API's aquarium salt for the fish.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2008)

Man this is lame - what causes this? It just came out of the blue.

Should I do a water change tonight?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

k, first of all, don't go dosing your fish yet........does the fish have black linings where the "decay" is happening?

It would be helpful if you had some pics for us


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2008)

let me try to get some pictures real quick...


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

okey pokey


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2008)

Ok - I added the pictures to my OP. I hope they work. (I invested in a tripod today by the way!)


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

that looks like some fish attacked it, what do you have in your tank?

This medicine treats damaged fins and fin rot, so get melafix

It sux that you have pimafix, it is a prevental treatment, not for infected fish


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2008)

I have some oto cats, I did have some clown loaches until today (I pulled one out, and can't find the other one) I have 2 apisto's. (one died, and I can't find the other one) I may have a dead fish in here somewhere. This all just started last night after I installed my co2 reactor. Then I just have some phantom tetras, and cherry barbs.

What should I do?

Water change tonight?

My water is cloudy also - not sure why. The poor cardinal's are just sort of floating around on the bottom. They can't swim, they just float around.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

it could be that neon tetra disease... the fin rot is a secondary infection. I see a white patch on him too. It's most likely columnaris.
http://www.fishjunkies.com/Diseases/columnaris.php


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2008)

Should I do a water change tonight?

I'm dosing EI also, and my water change is due on Sunday, but I could do it tonight. I don't understand why the water is not clear. It is a little cloudly. I thought maybe the spray bar was blowing toward the surface and blowing substrate around causing it to be cloudy. Then again I can't find one of the Apisto's and one of the clown loaches. I'm wondering if they are dead and clouding up the tank, and in return getting the fish sick? Thoughts?

I've looked, and looked all over the tank - moved things out, etc. and I can't find any dead fish. (But I can't find the two other live fish either) UGGGG.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

color change is also a secondary infection, if it is neon tetra disease, there is basically no cure for your fish.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2008)

So how do I know which one it is?

what should I do?

Should I do a water change tonight?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

I told you, there is no know cure for neon tetra disease, just take out healthy fish into a quarantine tank.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2008)

fishman9809 said:


> I told you, there is no know cure for neon tetra disease, just take out healthy fish into a quarantine tank.


Right - but we don't know that's for sure what it is. 

At the very min. I should do a water change tonight, right?

It for sure couldn't "hurt" any thing could it?


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## lescarpentier (Feb 2, 2008)

I think that neon tetra is progressive,and does not just come out of the blue like that.You said that you have cloudy water? What are your water parameters?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

no, doing a water change wouldn't do any harm, wait, are most of your fish infected, if fish are presumed dead, I would move all healthy fish into a quarantine tank that is big enough to hold them for maybe 5 days.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2008)

lescarpentier said:


> I think that neon tetra is progressive,and does not just come out of the blue like that.You said that you have cloudy water? What are your water parameters?



All of my water specs are fine. The only thing I did different was add an inline reactor yesterday, and new tubing

I have been moving things around a bit in the tank lately, and 4 of these tetras are brand new.

I think I may have a dead fish in here somewhere, but I can find him. What will happen if I can't find him, will he get all my other fish sick?


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

depends if the dead fish had it, if matter from the dead fish is consumed or inhaled by a healthy fish, it will become infected and possibly die. 

If it came from a lfs like petsmart (the neons), don't be surprised if the die and kill others, I have 7 neons, and I got 4 new ones, 1 and a half hours later, all four were dead.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2008)

Ok I just did a 50% water change. I found the two fish I thought were dead. I took out both of the clown loaches. (I'm taking them to the LFS to trade for shrimp tomorrow) I have them in a bowl of tank water tonight, will they survive the night in the bowl? Going to fish store in the am.

The water looks good for now. The fish seem to look a bit more happy. I'm going to watch it for a bit tonight, and hope for the best tomorrow.

Weird thing is one of my clowns look normal, the other looks REALLY weird. His whole body is really yellow. Strange.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2008)

Anybody out there?

Any idea why one of these clowns is yellow?


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## efish (Apr 23, 2006)

no clue. but could i suggest trying the search function... you have 475 posts and you been a member for a month...


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## JSCOOK (Jan 7, 2008)

efish said:


> ... you have 475 posts and you been a member for a month...


I'm starting to think that is the* ONLY* reason he posts so many questions ... quantity doesn't equal quality, so regardless he's starting to get a reputation that is going to be hard to shake later on and be taken seriously ... 

As for using the "search" feature has been suggested to him on more than one occassion ... I find most of these posts comical as most of this can also be found using something called "Google" if it's not on TPT.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

Are your fish eating?

If not, then it is something pretty bad, possibly NTD (neon tetra disease)


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Rick- my first suspciion would be poor water quality. That would explain all the deaths so far. I've already mentioned in other threads that IMO your tank is maxxed out with bioload- it's very possible that you have a mini-cycle going in there now causing the cloudiness.

What are your ammonia, nitrIte and nitrAte? Have you noticed any pH changes? Adding CO2 it is very common for a pH drop, especially if your tank is not sufficiently buffered. A rapid pH drop is sufficient alone to kill many fish.

Your tank is very new to have those loaches, tetras, and Apistos in there- they are all extremely sensitive fish and do not do well in setups that have not been established and stable for at least 6 mos.

If you had decomposing fish in the tank it is not likely that your ammonia, nitrIte and nitrAte levels are "fine"- decomposing fish pollute a tank in very little time.


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## SeaSerpant (Feb 20, 2008)

if the clown loaches were the loaches presumed dead, they have a thing to look dead. they will lay on there backs for a while then get back up and various other things like that.


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## captain_bu (Oct 20, 2007)

lauraleellbp said:


> Rick- my first suspciion would be poor water quality. That would explain all the deaths so far. I've already mentioned in other threads that IMO your tank is maxxed out with bioload- it's very possible that you have a mini-cycle going in there now causing the cloudiness.


Constantly moving plants around and disturbing the Aqua Soil as you have been doing is also likely adding to these problems. Cardinals need clean stable water conditions and should be drip acclimated when added to a tank, they are very sensitive. You have made many changes to your tank over a 3 week period and are not giving it any time to settle in and stabilize.


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

Also, are you are adding new fish without quarantining them?
You are asking for trouble when just throwing new fish in your tank.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2008)

Ok I think I figured out what is going on with my cardinal tetras.

I think the Apistios's were nipping at their tail.

I took the one I had out of the tank. (I also noticed the Apisto's were snapping at my amino shrimp.)

The clown's were alive by the way - the only fish that was lost as one Apisto - nothing else dead. So there were no fish decomposing in the tank.

Also my water was crystal clear until I did 2 things - 1. Added a co2 in-line reactor, and 2. Added a spray bar.

So I'm not sure if one of those 2 things are causing the water to be somewhat cloudily.

Also my tetra's are eating fine.


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

Either should not make your water cloudy but adding fish may induce a mini cycle and or a bacterial bloom which will make it look cloudy.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2008)

Hmm. but all my water stats are great. I've tested them all ( I know my test kits work, and are not outdated) Why in the world am I getting this spike?

Does it hurt to do 2 water changes in a row?

Do I add ferts for the plants again after the water change?


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

I think we have established the problem in several threads; the tank is overstocked and has not had a chance to stabilize. It takes a while to cycle a tank. You have said that the filter has only been running for 2 weeks. That is not enough time. You also have Aquasoil, which may or may not still be leeching ammonia. We don't know if you did the recommended water changes for it. We don't know what test kit you are using, if it is a test strip kit (which you might as well throw out), or how you know your test kits work. Did you test your test kit? Did you test it on water that isn't from your tank with known concentrations? 

I'm not trying to yell at you, but several people have told you the same thing in several threads, but you just keep saying that your water parameters are "fine," and you don't post how you know this.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

fishscale said:


> I think we have established the problem in several threads; the tank is overstocked and has not had a chance to stabilize. It takes a while to cycle a tank. You have said that the filter has only been running for 2 weeks. That is not enough time. You also have Aquasoil, which may or may not still be leeching ammonia. We don't know if you did the recommended water changes for it. We don't know what test kit you are using, if it is a test strip kit (which you might as well throw out), or how you know your test kits work. Did you test your test kit? Did you test it on water that isn't from your tank with known concentrations?
> 
> I'm not trying to yell at you, but several people have told you the same thing in several threads, but you just keep saying that your water parameters are "fine," and you don't post how you know this.


Thanks for the advice - few questions -
You say over stocked, but I got rid of 4 of the fish that you guys said I need to get rid of, I should be fine now.

The Eheim 2215 is new, but I took O-rings from my other fileter that had been running for years, and put them in the Eheim filter, to give it good bac.

Also I use the liquid drops.

I thought the Apistos I had were bitting the tails (that's what the lfs said) but I got rid of The apistos and the 2 of the fish, tried and tried to swim, but the harder they tried the more they ended up floating on their backs, and then 2 of the Cardinals finally died.

Does this sound like what would happen if they had nipped fins? You think it's something more serious?
Do I need to go buy something from the store tonight to help them?


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

How do the O-rings give you a bacteria colony? I am confused by this statement. 

Judging by the photos, I would say you have something else going on than fin nipping. It doesn't look like neon tetra disease (which is deceptively named because it can affect more than neons and their look-a-likes) to me. If you have columnaris or septicemia, you might not be able to save them. They are usually fatal in later stages. If there is an infection, I would suspect columnaris. I would try to get a QT tank up and running; it is usually not a good idea to dose your show tank. 

I cannot really recommend that you treat for columnaris because I'm not an expert and I'm not sure, but if it is, go with the Maracyn treatment as previously suggested. You need to determine if you have a gram positive or negative bacteria if it is bacterial. I don't know how much salt will help you here. The API fungus cure that turns the water green is malachite green. It is not good stuff to have around in your tank, another reason you should set up a QT tank.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

I don't have a 2nd tank to set up for this.

Man this is no GOOD! I bought the 4 Cardinals from Petsmart (which I never do, I just happened to be there), I wonder if they gave me sick fish.

If I use the Maracyn treatment in my tank what will happen?

Will my plants get harmed? What happens if I just let them go untreated? IS it 100% they will all just die?

Ugggggggggg..IF IT ISNT' ONE THING, IT'S ANOTHER!


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

Well the ceramic o rings were in my other filter, and bacteria grows on those o rings...



fishscale said:


> How do the O-rings give you a bacteria colony? I am confused by this statement.
> 
> Judging by the photos, I would say you have something else going on than fin nipping. It doesn't look like neon tetra disease (which is deceptively named because it can affect more than neons and their look-a-likes) to me. If you have columnaris or septicemia, you might not be able to save them. They are usually fatal in later stages. If there is an infection, I would suspect columnaris. I would try to get a QT tank up and running; it is usually not a good idea to dose your show tank.
> 
> I cannot really recommend that you treat for columnaris because I'm not an expert and I'm not sure, but if it is, go with the Maracyn treatment as previously suggested. You need to determine if you have a gram positive or negative bacteria if it is bacterial. I don't know how much salt will help you here. The API fungus cure that turns the water green is malachite green. It is not good stuff to have around in your tank, another reason you should set up a QT tank.


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

What part of Texas are you in? Post in the Texas local forum here and ask someone to point you in the direction of a good store. Then go to the store and ask for help with your fish.


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

Oh, you are referring to your media when you say O-ring. The O-ring usually refers to the rubber ring that seals your canister shut.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

fishscale said:


> Oh, you are referring to your media when you say O-ring. The O-ring usually refers to the rubber ring that seals your canister shut.


Sorry I should have been more clear.

I have no idea why all these problems started in my tank the last 48 hours. 

This is REALLY annoying. Everything was going so well, and looking so nice -- now this mess..


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## tropicalfish (Mar 29, 2007)

How long have you even cycled your tank??


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

tropicalfish said:


> How long have you even cycled your tank??


This tank if five years old


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

What happened to my post?

I said you need to post your: 

pH
gH
kH
ammonia
nitrIte
nitrAte

Adding CO2 could have caused pH swings, especially if your tank isn't sufficiently buffered.

Are you turning off your CO2 and running an airstone at night?


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

I'm not running an airstone at night.

Many people have said not to do that.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Then one possible issue is that your O2 is bottoming out at night and your fish are suffocating. Possible issue. Plants produce CO2 at night. Adding an airstone at night helps keep the O2 levels up for the fish.

What about the water stats?


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

The fish don't seem to be gasping at night. I'm not able to get the water stats right now unfortunately. 

Also what is the best temperature to keep your tank at all the time?


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

I'm not sure why people said this; it's a common practice. Plants do not consume CO2 at night, which is why many people run a solenoid or pH controller to shut off the CO2. When there is no light, plants will also use up oxygen, which is why sometimes fish go to the surface when the lights go off. Running an air stone when the CO2 is off keeps the O2 levels sufficient.

I don't think this is relevant to the problem you are describing, though. Large drops in pH are often fine, and won't cause fin rot at any rate.


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

rick4him said:


> The fish don't seem to be gasping at night. I'm not able to get the water stats right now unfortunately.
> 
> Also what is the best temperature to keep your tank at all the time?


Try to test as soon as possible, and give numbers for the parameters she requested.

The temperature of the tank depends on the fish you keep. I keep my tank at around 76-78 for my tetras. Discus like temps around 82-84, as do rams.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

I am a member at the Barr Report, and he says not to use an air-stone at night.
To find a stable co2 rate, and let it stay that way all the time.

Question : can you find an air-stone on the petsmart website that would be good for my tank?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I disagree- large pH drops are not fine, and are sufficient in of themselves to kill may fish, especially sensitive ones.

Most people run their tropical fish tanks between 76-78 degrees.

If you can't get water stats right now then you cannot say that your water parameters are "fine."

Just because they were fine a day or two or a week ago certainly does not mean that they are "fine" now.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

rick4him said:


> To find a _*stable*_ co2 rate, and let it stay that way all the time.
> 
> Question : can you find an air-stone on the petsmart website that would be good for my tank?


Stable is the key word there. The problem is that plants PRODUCE CO2 at night and ABSORB O2, which can be dangerous for fish. May or may not be happening in your tank, just one possibility of many. 

My best guess still is a water quality issue, but no way to be sure without those stats.

I would do a PWC to be on the safe side.

Any airstone will do- I use Lee's discard-a-stone b/c they are cheap and I replace them once the bubbles are no longer fine- shows that the stone has been colonized by bacteria to the point that it's no longer as efficient.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

so what do i need to buy? Just an airstone, and then I assume a pump, right?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Air pump, airstone, and airline tubing. A timer, if you don't already have one and want to automate it going off and on.

A gang or inline valve can also be useful to regulate air flow.

A test kit, if you're out of drops.


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

pH swings that are caused by the addition of something that stays in the water are of concern; I don't think there is a big problem if you have sufficient gH. I have had my pH drop to 6 from 7.5 and there were no complaints. Others have had larger drops. 

Tom Barr does advocate stable levels, but I am not sure how you would figure out the balance without killing fish. One way might be to shut off the CO2 before your lights go off. This would give the plants a chance to use up some of it. You could ask him directly at his forum, or even here. He posts here pretty often.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

So should I run to petco tonight and buy that stuff?

How much should I expect to spend for all of that stuff?

Where do you put the air stone? Far back? side, intake side, inflow side?
Is it weighted? Will it sink when I put it on there?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Maybe $25-30 total for the airstone setup? All that stuff is ususally pretty cheap.

You could use a suction cup to keep the airstone in place. I doubt it really matters in the tank where it is, put it someplace convienent to disguise it?

Why don't you take some water with you and see if they can test it for you at the store?

Also couldn't hurt to pick up some Melafix and Pimafix, in case it really is some sort of infection going...


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## neilfishguy (Dec 16, 2007)

Get the smallest whisper pump there is and a basic airstone for 15 bucks. it will work fine even though the pump is only rated to like 10 gallons.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

Ok I just got back from Petco. I got the pump up to 20 gallons, a small airstone, and some tubing. I'm about to hook it up.

I got my water tested - here is the results 
Nitrate - 20
Nitrite - 0
Ammonia - .25
KH - 120
GH 75
ph - 6.4

(and I did a 50% water change before I went to petco, this water came after that water change.)


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

by the way I use Prime, but I have some amquel plus which says removes ammonia if I need to use it...

waiting for yalls advice...


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

That was after the PWC? Then I seriously suspect a water problem.

Are you using Prime?


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

yes I am.. I put in 50 drops in my tank after the water change.

2 drops per gallon..


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

LOL answered while I was typing. Your ammonia reading may or may not be correct since Prime skews it...

I personally hate ammolock/amquel products- will never put them in my tanks.

You need to test your ammonia again tomorrow- 24 hours since you used Prime- and see what it says then.

I strongly suspect that the ammonia will be high, and you will have your answer.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

rick4him said:


> yes I am.. I put in 50 drops in my tank after the water change.
> 
> 2 drops per gallon..


AFTER your water change? You didn't treat your water or tank before adding water and you did a 50% change?


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

what do you think could have cause it?

Also either my eheim or my reactor is making a swishing noise, is this normal/


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> AFTER your water change? You didn't treat your water or tank before adding water and you did a 50% change?


I have always did a 50% weekly water change.

And I always put the drops in after I add the water? If not what water would there be to treat?


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

I"m looking at this whisper pump I bought. The instructions say to put it at least 12' higher then the tank..

What? Can I not put it under the tank? Also it looks like it came with some sort of device to regulate how much air is coming through.


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

I don't think it makes a huge difference, but usually you add the dechlor before you pump water back in. You also use the dosage for the whole tank for Prime, if you happen to use that. 

Prime binds the chloramine and ammonia that is present, which means the ammonia is still there, but non toxic (for 24 hours). When you dose it for water changes, it will give you a false positive reading on certain test kits (most of the ones available in the hobby) because of the reaction with chloramine. Wait 24 hours after dosing Prime, then test. 

The swishing noise in your Eheim is probably due to the fact that there is some air trapped. You can tilt it to the side until the bubble is expelled. It will happen from time to time and usually it will fix itself. It happens more with CO2 injection. 

None of these things really address what is wrong with your fish. I would guess the new fish you bought introduced something. Always use a QT tank.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

Yah your right! Man never buy from petco.

So can I just test tomorrow and see how the water is, and just hope the fish survive the night?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If you did not treat your tank before adding the water, then any fish that came into direct contact with your tap water would have direct exposure to chlorine and other toxins that the Prime is there to fix. Chlorine will also kill any N-bacteria it comes into contact with. A possible explanation for your cloudy water.

I NEVER add untreated water to my tanks. Either dose the tank first or, preferably, fill the tank with water that has been treated and mixed in a bucket.

If you got Melafix, I'd dose that in the tank at the recommended dosage.

x2 on always quarantine new fish. Get a 10gallon bare-bones setup for cheap cheap and reserve it for QT new fish. Especially if you follow through with your plans to set up a larger tank at a new date...


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

When you did your PWC, was your Eheim running?

Did the water level drop below the level of the intake for the filter?


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> When you did your PWC, was your Eheim running?
> 
> Did the water level drop below the level of the intake for the filter?


No, the intake is really low to the bottom.

I have this airstone hooked up and I have the valve that came with it installed also. I can hear that valve "hissing" which is rather annoying.

Also there are a TON of bubbles coming out - like boiling water..is that what's it supposed to do?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Yep that's what it does. Oxygenates the water through the bubbles and water movement. The valve hissing is b/c it's releasing some air instead of pushing it all through the stone. Not all valves make noise, though.

You're supposed to keep airpumps above the water level of the tank b/c once the airpump is shut off there's danger that the water will backflow down the air tube and into the pump, water inside airpumps usually isn't a good idea. Electrical hazard, rusting, etc.

Another option is to tie a few long loops into the airline tubing to hopefully discourage the same by interrupting the gravity siphon.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

Yah I see. question - is it ok to just have the pump on full blast? If so I will remove the valve and install this check valve I have.

Is it ok to have a TON of bubbles? Bascially when I wake up there will be no co2 i the tank correct?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

The idea of having a valve is so that you can adjust the air going through the stone. Some valves do work better than others...

Don't forget that plants produce CO2 at night. It may take some work balancing everything out.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

That's why I asked if it could go full blast?
Can you have "to much" bubbles coming out of there?
The bubbles aren't really really small like the bubbles that came out of my co2 glass diffusor. they are much bigger, and faster bubbles.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If it were me, I'd let it rip at night. But then my priority is always my fish and I really don't care much at all about how fast my plants grow. I also don't really care about algae. 

So it's a matter of choosing your goals and prioritizing around them. If you do want fantastic plant growth and no algae, then you might want to moderate the airflow some. 

In general, changes in fish tanks should always go slowly, in order to give the animals and plants time to adjust. You have a tendency to move at the speed of lightning, and not always make sure you understand the cause and effect of things before you make changes... just something I've noticed.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

Your right, I do tend to jump on things. (man I've spent a TON the last few months, from the first time when I was just looking at buying co2..) YIKES!

I guess one thing I don't understand is why it would matter how must youlet your airstone "rip" at night? How does that effect plant growth? Plants do phoo. at night, and then at day the co2 would be running. So why difference would how fast you ran air at night make?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

It might not make any difference at all, but it could- depending on how efficiently the CO2 is outgassed at night vs. how efficiently your CO2 dosing can bring the level back up in the morning? 

In general, CO2 irregularities are associatied with algae buildups, but I'm not at all sure that this type of situation would be enough irregularity to actually have any effect, I actually doubt it, but I couldn't say for sure either way.

Understand that I don't use CO2 on any of my tanks, I prefer the simplicity of low-light setups. So what I understand about CO2 dosing is in principle, and from what I've learned on forums, not from practical experience.

My experience is with 25+ years keeping fish.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

Well I'm going to bed for now. It's been a long day, and I feel like I've spent a TON of money, and time on this tank, and not alot of progress!
Thanks for everyone's help, sorry for so many questions.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Night Rick. It is quite a learning curve, especially jumping in feet first like you tend to lol


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## captain_bu (Oct 20, 2007)

rick4him said:


> I guess one thing I don't understand is why it would matter how must youlet your airstone "rip" at night? How does that effect plant growth? Plants do phoo. at night, and then at day the co2 would be running. So why difference would how fast you ran air at night make?



This thread started out with a question about the health of your cardinals. I thought you bought the airstone and pump because your cardinals were dying and/or unhealthy looking and from the responses suspected an high level of CO2 at night? Why are you suddenly worried about what running an airstone at night will do to plant growth? Aren't you trying to save your fish while you figure out what is wrong with your CO2 levels and water chemistry?


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

Captain - You thought wrong when you thought I bought the airstone and pump because of high co2 levels at night. If anything I said I never see them at the top gasping for breath so I think it's ok.

But just to be on the safe side I bought it. 

But I don't want to have issues with my plants either. I would like both of them to do well.
and I'm not "suddenly" worried - You shouldn't be so quick to assume things.


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## icex (Dec 4, 2007)

rick4him said:


> Well I'm going to bed for now. It's been a long day, and I feel like I've spent a TON of money, and time on this tank, and not alot of progress!
> Thanks for everyone's help, sorry for so many questions.


Trust me, you'll spend alot more money on the tank too getting it just right. For mine I still need a UV steralizer, pressurized c02 and aqua soil before I'm done, and I've already invested a good $800-$1000 on the damn thing already. And with a algae/bacterial bloom every other week, its starting to piss me off, but I get through it anyway.:icon_roll


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

I don't think you need a UV or Aquasoil. Aquasoil is nice to have though.


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## icex (Dec 4, 2007)

fishscale said:


> I don't think you need a UV or Aquasoil. Aquasoil is nice to have though.


I don't need it, but it would look better in my tank than the pea gravel does.. as for the UV I do need one because I get frequent algae/bacterial blooms and I'm still trying to figure out why.. but lets get back on topic because I don't want to hijack rick's.


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

rick4him said:


> I've spent a TON of money, and time on this tank, and not alot of progress!


This can be an expensive hobby, but doesn't have to be.

I've got a 30 gallon that I've put maybe 400 into, including cost of tank.

I've got a 10 gallon that I've put 30 into. (That tank was free)

Right now I think my 10 looks better than the 30.

The moral of the story is, no one cares how much you spend, and that amount isn't indicative of the end result.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

rick4him said:


> You shouldn't be so quick to assume things.


Wow...thats a bit snooty from someone who doesn't know how to buy an airstone without someone helping them...

Your new spray bar.... which way to you have the flow directed? Is it shooting straight down and causing disruption to the substrate?

This may be a reason why the water is cloudy. Did you rinse the reactor out before you installed it?


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## rolloffhill (Jan 18, 2008)

rick4him said:


> I am a member at the Barr Report, and he says not to use an air-stone at night.
> To find a stable co2 rate, and let it stay that way all the time.
> 
> Question : can you find an air-stone on the petsmart website that would be good for my tank?





gmccreedy said:


> Wow...thats a bit snooty from someone who doesn't know how to buy an airstone without someone helping them...
> 
> Your new spray bar.... which way to you have the flow directed? Is it shooting straight down and causing disruption to the substrate?
> 
> This may be a reason why the water is cloudy. Did you rinse the reactor out before you installed it?


I kinda thought the same thing...for someone that claims he has more than just the last 3 weeks in fishkeeping experience, doesn't know about the very basic airpump and airstone.


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## SPC (Jan 14, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> I disagree- large pH drops are not fine, and are sufficient in of themselves to kill may fish, especially sensitive ones.


When you say "large", what exact number are you referring to? Can you post a link (scientific data) which shows how much PH change it takes to kill fish?
Thanks,
Steve


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

Come on guys, let's not bash him. I honestly believe he is making an effort. 

I absolutely agree with the expense statement, eyebeatbadgers. My high tech tank is the worst of the bunch right now. But, I wanted to see if I could do it. 

Any way, let's bring this back on track: Please post your water parameters and try to get more pictures of your fish. To me, those pictures look like your fish don't have long to get help.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

gmccreedy said:


> Wow...thats a bit snooty from someone who doesn't know how to buy an airstone without someone helping them...
> 
> Your new spray bar.... which way to you have the flow directed? Is it shooting straight down and causing disruption to the substrate?
> 
> This may be a reason why the water is cloudy. Did you rinse the reactor out before you installed it?



It wasn't that I "needed" help buying an airstone - it's just that most people I've talked to never use them, and they sell a million different ones at the store. I've never even looked at buying one to be honest, so I didn't know which one I should go with. and what does that have to do with telling someone not to assume something? Asking a question about buying an airstone isn't assuming anything.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

fishscale said:


> Come on guys, let's not bash him. I honestly believe he is making an effort.
> 
> I absolutely agree with the expense statement, eyebeatbadgers. My high tech tank is the worst of the bunch right now. But, I wanted to see if I could do it.
> 
> Any way, let's bring this back on track: Please post your water parameters and try to get more pictures of your fish. To me, those pictures look like your fish don't have long to get help.


fishscale - thanks for this. the water stats today are :

Nitrate - 20
Nitrite - 0
Ammonia - 0
KH - 120
GH 75
ph - 6.4


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

Looks ok. I would try to get some more pics, hopefully clearer ones. I would find a good store near you and try to take the actual fish to the store and ask what is wrong.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

Ok, let me try to get on it. The water actually looks a little clearer this morning. I had a dead amanio shrimp though. But the are only a few days old, and from what I've heard they are somewhat "weak"


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

I wouldn't say that Amanos are "weak," or even that sensitive. Certainly, shrimp are more sensitive than fish with regard to ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, but I'm not sure what the problem is in your tank. Your nitrates are not really incredibly high. You're sure you have Amanos and not ghosts? They look different. Ghosts are usually sold as feeders, and therefore are generally short lived. Also, with shrimp, you really need to acclimate carefully (drip acclimate).


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2008)

Yes they are Amino Shrimp. 

They are all hiding under rocks and way in the back. Normally they are all over the front eating around my gloss. 

Thoughts?


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

They are being shrimp. Sometimes they hide, sometimes they don't. They could be breeding.

Do you read up on anything at all or just ask questions?


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2008)

gmccreedy said:


> They are being shrimp. Sometimes they hide, sometimes they don't. They could be breeding.
> 
> Do you read up on anything at all or just ask questions?


Do I read up on anything? LOL...man relax, if you don't have time to post stuff, don't.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2008)

fishscale said:


> Looks ok. I would try to get some more pics, hopefully clearer ones. I would find a good store near you and try to take the actual fish to the store and ask what is wrong.


Ok here are a few pictures - I took a TON of them, I can't seem to get a clear picture (even with a tripod) ...Hopefully these will help.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2008)

Well I woke up to 2 more dead cardinal fish. This means I have lost all of my cardinal tetras except for one who is still in the tank hanging on. The sad part is I've actually had 4 of these for about 3 years, and they have gotten to be a really good size. I can't believe I lost them all in a matter of days!

I still have a bit of cloudiness to my water. This is day 3 of that. I swapped out the purgin last night as well, thinking that would help over night. 
So what do I do now? How when I know it is safe to put more card. into my tank? 

also I noticed when I put the dry fert into the tank some of the fish "ate" some of the little crystals as they were going down. I'm assuming this isn't good for the fish. Do you guys ever have this happen?

What next?


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## jinx© (Oct 17, 2007)

rick4him said:


> Do I read up on anything? LOL...man relax, if you don't have time to post stuff, don't.


Listen Rick, no offense but most of your threads and questions could've been answered just by using the search function and reading. 
I'm actually as amazed as some of the others that you claim to have years of fish keeping experience but ask some of the questions that you do. 

I read the daily posts and archived threads on the forum here for 4-5 months before I even became a member and made a post. I still do more reading than posting most days.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to learn and asking questions when you need help, but I think it would help if you acknowledge that the people replying to your 500odd posts are taking time out of their days to give you meaningful firsthand advice when they don't have to. 
I know you say thank you etc., but just as many times you're blowing off someones good advice or comments.

I'm not saying it's my place to tell you anything, but I'm just noticing a downward spiral around you that's going to end up with few people reading your threads and probably even fewer replying FWIW.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2008)

jinx© said:


> Listen Rick, no offense but most of your threads and questions could've been answered just by using the search function and reading.
> I'm actually as amazed as some of the others that you claim to have years of fish keeping experience but ask some of the questions that you do.
> 
> I read the daily posts and archived threads on the forum here for 4-5 months before I even became a member and made a post. I still do more reading than posting most days.
> ...



It's funny how people say I'm not taking advice. I've done pretty much everything people have suggested that I do. I've taken back fish, I've bought an air stone, I bought purgin, I've bought a reactor, I've checked for clogs in my filter, I've shorted my filter hoses, I've lowered the lights, and lots of everything. 

So when you say I haven't taken advice, what advice is it that i haven't taken?


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

Rick, I did warn you this hobby should be taken with caution.
You should chalk this up as a lesson and move on.

ALWAYS quarantine new fish.

I can almost guarantee the cardinal deaths were caused by adding those new fish and all the other messing around at once.
Your fish looked super stressed, you as a fishkeeper of 5 years should know this.

I would suggest to slow down a bit and take things one at a time.
No one here is against you, they love to help I know first hand

I think a lot of people are frustrated with so many questions and then you wind up with dead fish, it kinda frustrates me just writing this to you LOL!

Anyway, I hope everything settles in for you, your tank is starting to look real nice in your journal...


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2008)

mott said:


> Rick, I did warn you this hobby should be taken with caution.
> You should chalk this up as a lesson and move on.
> 
> ALWAYS quarantine new fish.
> ...



Hey thanks. So since I have been pulling dead fish out of my tank do you think it would be wise to do a 50% water change today? To to make sure I add some fresh water since those dead fish were floating all night? I know some of said not to do water changes, and some have said I should I just want to do the right thing. I just figured the water is "yucky" from the dead fish, and my first thought is it would be wise to give them some clean water.

Your right - I added to many things at one time, so now it's hard to pinpoint what exactly is causing the issue.


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

I would do a WC if I woke up to those dead fish but obviously leave the filter alone


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Listen, water quality should always be the highest priority. Again, you as a 5 year fishkeeper should know this and should certainly know when its appropriate for a water change. You keep asking if you should do one...quite frankly, just do it already. You can't hurt anything by doing them (you should know this) and other the on the hand it can help restore WQ (which you should already know).

Just do it.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2008)

mott said:


> I would do a WC if I woke up to those dead fish but obviously leave the filter alone


Ha-ha ok. Thanks. I'm really am not a bad guy, I promise. I just sort of jumped in to the planted tank set up, and got in a bit over my head. I'm sorry for all the questions - but for what it's worth the advice has helped me a ton.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2008)

gmccreedy said:


> Listen, water quality should always be the highest priority. Again, you as a 5 year fishkeeper should know this and should certainly know when its appropriate for a water change. You keep asking if you should do one...quite frankly, just do it already. You can't hurt anything by doing them (you should know this) and other the on the hand it can help restore WQ (which you should already know).
> 
> Just do it.


This is what I'm talking about - you tell me that,but if you read on here others have said DON'T TOUCH THE WATER, just to wait it out. So I do the water change some will get mad because I didn't' "listen" to them. Then if I don't do the water change you (and others) will say I didn't "listen" to you.

You see my position? I'm going to do the water change now.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2008)

So I did the water change, but I also went down to where everything is hooked up and "listened" to the sounds. As I said before, the reactor is making a sound as if it is filling up, then a "swishing" sound. Over and over again. filling - then swishing.

IS this normal?


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## rolloffhill (Jan 18, 2008)

pics?


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

rick4him said:


> So I did the water change, but I also went down to where everything is hooked up and "listened" to the sounds. As I said before, the reactor is making a sound as if it is filling up, then a "swishing" sound. Over and over again. filling - then swishing.
> 
> IS this normal?


From one of your _*OTHER *_threads http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...sion/61146-what-world-going-3.html#post552122

There is nothing "mechanical" in the reactor. Its just a pipe with some fancy fittings on it.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2008)

I hope these help. I tried to rotate them, but for some reason they didn't stay that way.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2008)

gmccreedy said:


> From one of your _*OTHER *_threads http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...sion/61146-what-world-going-3.html#post552122
> 
> There is nothing "mechanical" in the reactor. Its just a pipe with some fancy fittings on it.


Right I know that, but there can be air locks and other things going on.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

rick4him said:


> Right I know that, but there can be air locks and other things going on.


Huh? Air Locks? Other things going on?


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## JSCOOK (Jan 7, 2008)

gmccreedy said:


> From one of your _*OTHER *_threads http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...sion/61146-what-world-going-3.html#post552122
> 
> There is nothing "mechanical" in the reactor. Its just a pipe with some fancy fittings on it.


Gmccreedy, by chance did you put any bioballs inside the reactor you sold him that might be moving around?
It was just a thought I had reading this.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

JSCOOK, no I didn't. She is bare bones inside. Its just an airpocket he has in there. If he turned the CO2 off for an hour, it would probably go away. Then if he turns the gas back on, it would reform.

On that note, you COULD try and turn you CO2 down and see what happens. You may not be getting good dilution.

However, this "air pocket" has nothing to do with his fish. Unless of course, they are ODing on CO2?


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2008)

Gmccreedy - right - sometimes air from the co2 can get caught up top, I didn't know if this is going on in my tank. I just know since I added your reactor I've had a TON of problems. Not trying to point a finger, but this is really the only thing I have done "new" . Before the reactor my water was CRYSTAL clear. And my fish were SUPER healthy. I added the reactor and have had all sorts of trouble. I'm thankful that you sold it to me, but I just don't know how it could not be something to do with the way the reactor and spray bar are hooked up that is causing my water to stay cloudy. That's all..


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2008)

The co2 goes off at night. Is it normal to always have an airpocket?

Also some folks have told me I should ditch the spray bar and go back to using the shepard cane I was using before, thoughts on that?


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

OK, I reiterate for the fourth time.

Did you rinse the reactor when you got it like I told you too? I never had a good chance to clean it out.

Next, my comments about the spray bar were directed to see if you were pointing the flow at the substrate, which in turn could have been churning up "stuff".

Now, if the reactor is truly the problem, which if you rinsed it, it shouldn't be, then take it off and go back to the way you were doing it before.

But FWIW, I have three of those same reactors, and have never had a problem. Quite frankly, a good majority of the people on the boards have something very similar, so I can't see PVC pipe (which is all it is), being your direct cause.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Dude... can you stay with one train of thought? Problems with fish, spray bar, reactors... come on man.

I am done here.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2008)

I did not rinse it, ( I answered that before when you asked me that) but taking it off now and rinsing wouldn't do any good, all the "dust" would already be out.

Also the spray bar is pointed towards the top of the tank, causing a little ripple among the surface of the water. 
Maybe I should go pick up one of those petmart uv things and see if that makes any change.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2008)

gmccreedy said:


> Dude... can you stay with one train of thought? Problems with fish, spray bar, reactors... come on man.
> 
> I am done here.


Ha,ha....man don't get so stressed out bro. It's just fish. 

"one train of thought?" - I do have one train of thought - working on my fish tank.

I think you just get so upset because you ask me questions that I have already answered. You get upset because you say I haven't answered your questions - but if you re-read our dealings you'll see I have already answered your question about the spray-bar, and the one about rinsing the reactor I bought from you....


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## tropicalfish (Mar 29, 2007)

So exactly now, *what* is your question??


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## JSCOOK (Jan 7, 2008)

I'm assuming the reactor is PVC and PVC cement was used to built it ... being there is nothing inside, even if it was NOT washed out, there is nothing that would harm your fish inside. If there was any glue that made it inside the reactor, it would have been cured long before you got it installed ...

However CO2 over-dosing "could" be a real possibility here as this was also a "change" when you added the reactor ...

Simply put, it is NOT the reactor itself that is causing the problems with your fish ...


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2008)

Why is my water cloudy? And is this the reason I have lost so many card. tetera and shrimp the last few days?


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## JSCOOK (Jan 7, 2008)

I actually "blink" to post a comment and a while page goes by ...


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

rick4him said:


> The co2 goes off at night. Is it normal to always have an airpocket?
> 
> Also some folks have told me I should ditch the spray bar and go back to using the shepard cane I was using before, thoughts on that?





rick4him said:


> Maybe I should go pick up one of those petmart uv things and see if that makes any change.





rick4him said:


> Why is my water cloudy? And is this the reason I have lost so many card. tetera and shrimp the last few days?



This is all on the same page in this thread. then look at the title of this thread. Now spin around and do the hooky pooky.

Dude...do yourself a favor. Hire someone to maintain your fishtank.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2008)

gmccreedy said:


> This is all on the same page in this thread. then look at the title of this thread. Now spin around and do the hooky pooky.
> 
> Dude...do yourself a favor. Hire someone to maintain your fishtank.


What's your point?

Man - you really know how to take things out of context. You should run for President. 

All of the statements were in response to someone's question. If you look at allot of posts on this site you will see they have "rabbit trailed" once people started asking probing questions. Which is what is going on here. 

I think you feel a little offended because I'm asking questions that concern the device that you made. Hey man don't take it personal, it has nothing to do with you, or your engineering skills. I'm just trying to find out what is going on, and yes all of the problems did happen when I installed the reactor I bought form you. I'm sorry it happened like that, but being honest is the only way to solve a problem. There is no reason to take it personal - so please don't.

(by the way I'm Baptist and I don't dance, sorry.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

OMG. I am far from taking this personal. No offense taken at all. All I did was glue some PVC parts together. Its not like I have a patent on the thing.

So, lets sum this up. We don't know whats wrong with your fish.


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## topfrog007 (Dec 30, 2007)

Are the fish displaying any type of odd behavior? Not schooling, gasping for air at the top, laying on the bottom, etc etc. 

Anything abnormal?


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2008)

Not really - the ones that are alive are doing fine. The only ones acting weird are the ones that died. 

I figured the cloudy water had something to do with the deaths.


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## rolloffhill (Jan 18, 2008)

rick4him said:


> What's your point?
> 
> Man - you really know how to take things out of context. You should run for President.
> 
> ...


I think he's offended because everytime you say something about your water being sub-par you blame the reactor that he built. It is in no way his fault and you need to look beyond the reactor to your real problem. YOU will need to find out what that is, because obviously no one here can help you.

Good luck


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2008)

rolloffhill said:


> I think he's offended because everytime you say something about your water being sub-par you blame the reactor that he built. It is in no way his fault and you need to look beyond the reactor to your real problem. YOU will need to find out what that is, because obviously no one here can help you.
> 
> Good luck


Man some of you guys are really funny. Rollofhill - you ask me to post pictures, I stop get the camera out, crawl around down there and take the pictures, post each of them, and then you don't even say anything about the pictures. Now that's funny.


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## rolloffhill (Jan 18, 2008)

rick4him said:


> Man some of you guys are really funny. Rollofhill - you ask me to post pictures, I stop get the camera out, crawl around down there and take the pictures, post each of them, and then you don't even say anything about the pictures. Now that's funny.


Ya know, the pictures were to try to help you out, but if you can't see that you are beyond help. I asked so to make sure you had it hooked up correctly.

Also I'm sorry I'm not on here every waking second of the day like you are to respond instantly to everything that is posted on your threads...sorry I have a life.

Anyway good luck with your "cloudy" sub-par water, you are quite ungratefull to most of the members here. I kinda feel bad for you really.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2008)

I'm "ungratefull"? Why is that?

Besides asking questions (which is what this site is for) what I have done wrong?

If you relax for a minute you'll see I have done pretty much everything that everyone has asked. Then you guys turn around get upset with me? 

LOL - man.

Why in the world do you feel "bad" for me?


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## topfrog007 (Dec 30, 2007)

Lock this thread


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

Why?


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## JSCOOK (Jan 7, 2008)

Rick,

I think because it's got to the point where it's pointless rambling posts which lack any real substance ... 

We have all been trying to get you to "focus" on details and construct posts which have "factual" substance to them ...

I'd agree and 2nd the motion that it's time to lock this thread.


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## topfrog007 (Dec 30, 2007)

People's emotions are running a little high. 

All of these "witty" retorts and insults are getting rather annoying and making this thread extremely excruciating to read.

No blame/fault on anyone, if it keeps going in the direction it's been going then it definitely needs to be locked.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

I agree. It started out fine but then people got upset and started saying things that werent neccesary. (myself included) to be honest I feel like I answered every question I was asked and did pretty much everything suggested. (which included buying allot of stuff) so I feel a littlle taken back that people are getting upset because I feel like I have tried to do everything that people suggested so they knew that I appricate the advice they gave. 

My intent was never to tick people off and to be honest I don't understand how I did? 

If its the questions I'm sorry. I thought that what this site was for. Again I really am sorry for anyone I upset.


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## trackhazard (Aug 24, 2006)

Rick,

All the suggestions people make are simply that. Everyone posting can only guess at what the problem is as no one is there to watch your tank personally. Some people have gotten impatient but you're not helping by posting every other second saying "this isn't working or that isn't working."

I'd start from the beginning again. Remove everything and give it a couple days before adding something else. Take off the CO2 reactor (which I suspect isn't your problem but you never know). I honestly don't think its your spraybar unless its point straight at the substrate and is uncovering a bunch of gunk that is fouling the water.  Do a water change and sit on your tank for a couple days. See if the water stays cloudy or if it is clearing up and go from there. You just need to take one step at a time.

Cloudy water is usually bacterial bloom or green water. Take a cup of water and put it in a white bowl. If it has a green tint, then its green water. If its plain white or grey cloudy, then its most likely bacterial bloom. Bacterial bloom will usually solve itself after a couple days. Bacterial bloom is usually means a cycle in the tank. Your test kits may or may not register this depending on how old they are, how accurate they are in the first place and how well you can read them. Sit on the tank for a while and try not to fiddle with it would be my advice. Add equipment and make changes slowly and one at a time so that you can figure out what change is having what effect which is a piece of advice that was given earlier in this thread and is probably the wisest thing to do IMO.

Good luck!

One more thing: everybody has his own opinion on doing things. Many times these opions conflict with each other. Oftentimes they are simply different routes to the same goal. Instead of blindly following what some person says to do with your tank, think about the advice that's been given and see if it makes sense in your situation. This might be a case of too many cooks spoiling the broth.

-Charlie


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

rick4him said:


> so what do i need to buy? Just an airstone, and then I assume a pump, right?


Just want to make sure I understand. You've been running this aquarium for five years. And you're unsure whether an airstone requires a pump? You're going to just discard Tom Barr's advice and follow a posters recommendation just because...? Take a deep breath, step back from the tank-don't do anything yet. Don't put any medicine in the tank. Don't put an airstone in it. Just relax and think about gradually undoing what you've done. You said that this didn't start until you added a CO2 reactor, correct? Slowly reduce the amount of CO2 over the course of a few hours and then unhook it. Take the tank back as closely as you can to the way it was when everything was ok. Let the tank cycle stop doing all the water changes-do weekly partial ie: once a week. Then spend the next several weeks researching-go online (use the search function) to forums, use google, go to the library,go the bookstore and find a pet store that specializes in planted tanks or at least one that has freshwater and reef tanks (reefers know water chemistry pretty good too). You have what I'll bet everyone of us has had at one time: the uncontrollable urge to fix every perceived problem are aquarium has. Whether it be controlling PH or fish disease (here's a newsflash-fish get healthy in healthy environments-they get sick in bad environments). I've been maintaining a planted CO2 injected tank for over 15 years or more (I will have to look a some old vhs video or receipts to say for sure) I have some plants that are well over 10 years old and I can honestly say that it is only in the last year that I think I have a grasp of how to be successful at it. Slow down, take one step at a time.


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## colinthebassist (Nov 30, 2007)

Put the purigen in your tank, its almost impossible for it to have a negative effect on your tank, besides absorbing medicine. 

Next thing you should do is not touch your tank till next Sunday, except to feed. Disturbing your tank everyday and opening your filter all the time is just plain bad. IMO your tank is unbalanced, since there has been so many changes in such a short time you are running into biological problems caused from disturbing your mini eco-system.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

colinthebassist said:


> Put the purigen in your tank, its almost impossible for it to have a negative effect on your tank, besides absorbing medicine.
> 
> Next thing you should do is not touch your tank till next Sunday, except to feed. Disturbing your tank everyday and opening your filter all the time is just plain bad. IMO your tank is unbalanced, since there has been so many changes in such a short time you are running into biological problems caused from disturbing your mini eco-system.


I noticed you edited the post : it did say to mix the dry ferts with water first, now it doesn't say that. Was there a reason for that?

Just curious?
thanks for the nice reply by the way.


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## bigstick120 (May 23, 2005)

What you need to do is stop dicking with your tank! The cloudiness in probably a bacterial bloom. Water changes arent going to help, just let the tank cycle. Cardinals arent the most hardy fish, and not of new tanks. Making 50 changes to you tank isnt going to help. Sit back for a few days, read through the forum and try to find the answers.


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

I'll say it again: I don't feel qualified to make a diagnosis on what your fish is suffering from. To the best of my limited knowledge and with respect to your pictures, it looks like columnaris. I still can't advise that you treat for columnaris because I don't feel like I know enough about it. My experience extends as far as once upon a time, I had a fish in my QT tank that exhibited similar symptoms, and it died. Here are some articles:

General bacterial infections (Scroll down for columnaris): http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/bactin.shtml

Explanation of bacterial infections: http://www.fishjunkies.com/Infections/bacterial.php

Brief description of columnaris w/ picture:
http://www.fishjunkies.com/Diseases/columnaris.php


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

OK having re-read through this plus all your other threads, let me see if I can summarize the issues you are currently having, and then list my impressions/reasoning;

Cloudy tank water
Noise in your new CO2 reactor
A new Apisto plus several 3-4 year old Cardinal tetras dying

My first inclination, knowing that this was a relatively new tank setup, was that there was a cycling issue. This would have explained both the cloudy water plus dying fish. Your water parameters over the past several days, however, to me indicate that this is probably not the case.

My next guess was then a CO2 overdose or other CO2 issue, since that again could explain several of the issues. You've added an airstone to rule out fish O2 deprivation at night (and haven't lost any fish since, is that correct? May or may not have been related, but better safe than sorry, IMO.)

I know nothing about CO2 reactors, having never owned one, and so would lean towards GMC's explanations of an air bubble, since he's the one who made it.

Which still leaves you with cloudy water plus having lost some fish. It's unclear to me at this time if the two issues are or are not related. You've ruled out most of the "usual suspects" at this point, however. The explanations I lean towards, though would not put money on are:

1- Your Apisto death may have had nothing to do with you; they are sensitive fish and may have been a death related to all the changes/stresses/exposures it had undergone by the time it landed in your tank.
2-Cardinal tetras also are very sensitive fish- especially to changes. They are extremely hardy fish once they have been established in a tank, but the only time I ever lost any established Cardinals was when I tried to transfer them to a different tank that from the parameters I was able to measure was identical. Obviously it was not, b/c I lost the whole school within 2 weeks. I'd had them for 3 years prior. Cardinals in the wild are generally considered "annual" fish- my suspicion is that as they age in our tanks they are very sensitive to changes. You've been making tons of changes in this tank over a very short period of time, as many others have pointed out.

If no other fish in your tank are showing any signs of disease, IMO I would not treat the tank. Calculated risk, but I'm one of those people who's opposed to antibiotics/antifungals (other than salt, or possibly Melafix/Pimafix) except as a very last resort, and only with a confirmed diagnosis.

Which leaves the cloudy water. And also 6-day old Purigen that is already brown?

Did you ever examine the water against something white to see if it's green water/algae bloom? 

Have you moved any plants around recently, possibly releasing either some ammonia or even hydrogen sulfide into the tank? 

Did you ever use any other water treatment chemicals in this tank other than Prime? I recently learned that Prime is not to be used in conjunction with any chemicals that are used to enhance slime coats- Seachem says that this results in a "toxic" condition...

It's possible that your issues are explained/over at this point. I also would recommend not making any major changes and observing the fish and plants over the next few days. 

I would not, however, stop the PWC. These can only be helpful to fish, and especially if there is some sort of toxic buildup that we have yet to identify.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> OK having re-read through this plus all your other threads, let me see if I can summarize the issues you are currently having, and then list my impressions/reasoning;
> 
> Cloudy tank water
> Noise in your new CO2 reactor
> ...


Wow! A good, mature reply. Thank you.
As you have pointed out I really have taken MUCH of the advice given to me by memebers of this forum.

To answer some of your questions -
Yes there has been some replanting of plants. (they had become uprooted when trying to catch my clowns so I could return them. ) So I simply uprooted them. (however in the past I have moved plants around the same way and it has never made my water cloudly for more then in a few hours.

I have only used Prime when treating my water. (which when I did the water change today I added the drops BEFORE I put the water in  )

Also I did take water out of the tank and put it in a white bowl - it had more of a yellowish color then a green one.

Also I have noticed that over the weekend my tank smelt like rotten eggs when my nose was directly over the water. This smell isn't as strong as it was on Sunday, actually it's pretty much gone. But thought I would mention it becuase they smell may mean something to someone.

Other then that everything is the same. My water is still the same - the ammonia is still at 0. 

My thought with the reacator is that maybe the water is coming into the tink with co2 bubbles so small you can't see them, and that is making the water look "cloudly". As in before the reactor I was using a glass diffsor and the filter would blow the co2 bubbles all over the tank like a snow strom, and it would make my water unclear. Not cloudy, but unclear. I would turn the co2 off and it would be really clear again. That's why I got the reactor so I could disolve the co2 before it came into my tank. I don't think this is the issue though - becuase the co2 doesn't run at night, and in the morning it is still cloudly. So I'm a little confused. I turned the filter pressure down a bit tonight to see if the filter pressure was to much and distrubing the substrate - but turning down the pressure didn't seem to do anything, the water stayed the same.

So this is where I'm at.

also besides loosing the fish you mentioned, I also lost about 7 or so of my Amano shrimp over the night last night. (that was their first night in the tank by the way.)


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## trackhazard (Aug 24, 2006)

Rotten eggs smell means anaerobic pockets in your substrate that can cause ammonia spikes when disturbed. My guess is when you replanted, the H2S (hydrogen sulfide gas, cause of the rotten egg smell) was released, killing off a bunch of bacteria and causing a cycle that may have ultimately lead to the deaths of your fish. 

That's what I would diagnose considering the rotten eggs smell. How old is your substrate? If its new, did you remove the old substrate before putting it in or did you simply cap the old stuff? How deep is the substrate? Do you have anything that would stir up the substrate (snails, stirring by hand, etc)?

-Charlie


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## JSCOOK (Jan 7, 2008)

rick4him said:


> also besides loosing the fish you mentioned, I also lost about 7 or so of my Amano shrimp over the night last night. (that was their first night in the tank by the way.)


Why would you add ANYTHING to a tank in which you appear to have a problem with? ... Doing so, is just throwing $$$ away.

At this point, why not strip the entire tank down, clean everythihng, complete a FULL and proper cycle, then start adding slowly to the tank ...


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## colinthebassist (Nov 30, 2007)

rick4him said:


> I noticed you edited the post : it did say to mix the dry ferts with water first, now it doesn't say that. Was there a reason for that?
> 
> Just curious?
> thanks for the nice reply by the way.



Had multiple reply windows open in firefox, got in the wrong one somehow.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

trackhazard said:


> Rotten eggs smell means anaerobic pockets in your substrate that can cause ammonia spikes when disturbed. My guess is when you replanted, the H2S (hydrogen sulfide gas, cause of the rotten egg smell) was released, killing off a bunch of bacteria and causing a cycle that may have ultimately lead to the deaths of your fish.
> 
> That's what I would diagnose considering the rotten eggs smell. How old is your substrate? If its new, did you remove the old substrate before putting it in or did you simply cap the old stuff? How deep is the substrate? Do you have anything that would stir up the substrate (snails, stirring by hand, etc)?
> 
> -Charlie


the substrate is about 8 months old. Its around two or three inches. There do seem to be alot of small snails in the tank yes. Also I did stir the substrate quit a bit when I replanted things. Buy as you can see in my pictures, the water was clear after I moved the plants. Things went bad about two weeks after. Which is what I don't understand. The water was very clear up until this weekend and in the last five years I have never had any cloudiness in my water that didnt up away over night.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Rick, you have your answer.

Hydrogen sulfide. Killed your fish, caused the rotten egg smell and also the yellow water.

JSCook- from Rick's water parameter reading, the tank was cycled. An anaerobic buildup in his soil is the problem, not cycling.

So your issue now is how to remove the hydrogen sulfide currently still in your water (as evidenced by the dead Amanos) as well as how to reduce the hydrogen sulfide that may still be in your substrate. Your flowbar may actaully have contributed to the deaths, as it circulated the HS throughout the water column. Don't do anything with it though, as increased water circulation is what you need at this point to combat the buildup of any more HS.

You need to get the current remaining HS out of the water column. Lots of PWC. Maybe several daily, if you have time. Don't overdo it though, I wouldn't do more than 20-25% at a time.

How deep is your Aquasoil?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

You also need to get clean Purigen back in there. The HS definitely was absorbed into the Purigen, that's the reason it turned brown. The Purigen likely is the only reason all your fish aren't dead, actually.

What I'm strugging with is how to advise you to address the HS that is probably still in your substrate. Malaysian Trumpet Snails are great for keeping substrate turned over and oxygenated (which is what you need) but they'll be killed if they run into a pocket that's still down there? That's the last thing you need- dying snails...


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> You also need to get clean Purigen back in there. The HS definitely was absorbed into the Purigen, that's the reason it turned brown. The Purigen likely is the only reason all your fish aren't dead, actually.
> 
> What I'm strugging with is how to advise you to address the HS that is probably still in your substrate. Malaysian Trumpet Snails are great for keeping substrate turned over and oxygenated (which is what you need) but they'll be killed if they run into a pocket that's still down there? That's the last thing you need- dying snails...


yah! Finally! My soil is about three inches deep I would guess. I did put in a clean bag of purgin yesterday by the way. The fish seem to look fine now by the way. Also the smell seems to be going away. 

How did I get these pockets? Why are they just now being released? What do I do now beside the water changes?


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

Rick how many fish did you add in the past say two weeks?

I'm not completely sold on this anaerobic theory especially with 8 month old substrate.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

I added the four car tetra and the shrimp.


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

What about the clowns?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Yellow water, dying fish, rotten egg smell, moved around substrate, and brown Purigen- IMO those sound pretty conclusive.

Basically when you have thick fine-grained substrate (such as sand, Aquasoil, etc) "dead" areas form with no O2 circulating through. A different type of bacteria form in these areas, anaerobic (meaning do not breathe [oxygen]) bacteria. Instead of nitrAtes, these anaerobic bacteria produce Hydrogen Sulfide (HS). HS is toxic to most oxygen-breathing life forms.

Most people who use Aquasoil discourage anaerobic spots by planting as much of their substrate as possible. The roots of the plants keep circulation going by their natural exchanges in the substrate. Another common way to increase circulation (one that I use in all my planted tanks) is to use Malaysian Trumpet Snails (MTS) as I already mentioned. They spend alot of time burrowing through the top 1" or so of substrate, which keeps it oxygenated. The downside of using MTS is that they tend to overpopulate tanks. I still like them, though, since I tend to use deep substrate beds to grow sword species.


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## trackhazard (Aug 24, 2006)

You can also poke at your substrate with a stick on occasion.

-Charlie


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

Take a look at his journal, he's been replanting for weeks now, all of the sudden he randomly hits an anaerobic pocket?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

mott said:


> Take a look at his journal, he's been replanting for weeks now, all of the sudden he randomly hits an anaerobic pocket?


I've followed Rick's progress with this tank from day one, so I'm pretty familiar with how his setup has progressed.

It may have taken this long for the pocket to build up and/or for him to have hit the right spot.

Those symptoms are classic; I'd actually put money on this one.

Track- the problem with only occasionally poking at the substrate is that it won't prevent the buildup, and actually might just instead hit a pocket and release it into the water.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

mott said:


> What about the clowns?


They were a little over two weeks ago. Thats why I didnt mention them. But they are gone now. I took them back to the pet store. The weird thing was I didnt really notice that rotten egg smell until thus last weekend. I was thinking maybe because the glosso is growing all through out the front and maybe the roots are hitting some if those pockets? Also I have been poking around planting stem plants with teezers. Is it possible I hit one if those pockets with the teezers? Thanks again guys for all your help with this. I really do value taking time to look into all of this. I very much value your advice and suggestions.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Plant roots won't grow into an anaerobic spot once formed- it's toxic to them. Poking around with tweezers may have released some HS, but I'd still suspect all the moving things around chasing the loaches and replanting. You just may not have noticed the smell at first in all the craziness. 

At what point did you notice the cloudy water and did your Apisto die in relation to moving around the substrate?

At this point the best I know to recommend is to add some MTS and keep up those daily PWC?


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## trackhazard (Aug 24, 2006)

lauraleellbp said:


> Track- the problem with only occasionally poking at the substrate is that it won't prevent the buildup, and actually might just instead hit a pocket and release it into the water.


Actually, you do it as maintenance before you start getting build up. If he starts hitting small pocket here and there, its ok. Once you start getting into places where the gas starts building up, thats when you have trouble. Either way, you need some form of turnover in your substrate in order to fight it. Poking at the substrate regularly will create circulation. At least thats what I've always done.

-Charlie


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

That makes sense.

(I'd rather let snails do my work for me- call me lazy :smile: lol)


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> Plant roots won't grow into an anaerobic spot once formed- it's toxic to them. Poking around with tweezers may have released some HS, but I'd still suspect all the moving things around chasing the loaches and replanting. You just may not have noticed the smell at first in all the craziness.
> 
> At what point did you notice the cloudy water and did your Apisto die in relation to moving around the substrate?
> 
> At this point the best I know to recommend is to add some MTS and keep up those daily PWC?


I have what looks like a billion little snails all over the place. ( i mean realm small. Like the tip on a writing pen small) I wonder what kind of snails they are. They are to small to compare them to really anything yet. I can't really make out what they look like. I know imthey make eggs on the slide of my glass some times. Little small eggs covered in some sort of slime to hold them in place. I've also seen the same thing on the bottom of a leave before.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

They could be any number of species, but unfortunately they definitely are not MTS. MTS have cone (trumpet)- shaped shells, and do not lay eggs as they are livebearers. (This is actually another reason that I like them, as all the little egg casings other snails leave on tank glass drive me batty LOL)


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> They could be any number of species, but unfortunately they definitely are not MTS. MTS have cone (trumpet)- shaped shells, and do not lay eggs as they are livebearers. (This is actually another reason that I like them, as all the little egg casings other snails leave on tank glass drive me batty LOL)


Hey good news! I just went in and turned on my light and those "billion" of snails I have. THEY ARE 100% MTS. they have the trumpt shell, and I actually saw some of the little, little, little ones burry itself in the substrate when the light came on. I had to look really close at the shell to see it had that trumpet shell, but they FOR SURE did. Not mind you, I also have some other snails in my tank (with the normal, round shell) but I do have ALOT of the MTS. I just have never gotten up and turned on my light late at night, and I have never looked REALLY close enough at these "pen head sized snails" to see what they were.

They are in fact MTS. I"m not sure how long (I"m assuming not to long given the size of them), or how they got here, but they are for sure MTS>

Also I could see a few little bubbles under my substrate, it looked like a trapped co2 bubble. IS that what you guys are talking about? (mind you it was almost at the top, as in it had like 2 small pebbles of substrate on top of it.)

So what next?


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

AHHHHHH I think we're on to something. I HAD 2 clown loaches, they eat snails. I got rid of them on Saturday, now I"m seeing the MTS. Could it be that the clowns were eating all the MTS, and now they are gone, the MTS are coming out.!!!!

Also I found this link 

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article55.html


It basically talks about what happened. remember that sword plant I removed from my tank.....


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I think 2 + 2 are all starting to equal 4.

Nice when you can finally get some answers- sometimes that doesn't happen...


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> I think 2 + 2 are all starting to equal 4.
> 
> Nice when you can finally get some answers- sometimes that doesn't happen...


Ha,ha. your right. So what now? Just wait it out?

Will this cloudy water clear up? I don't smell that rotten egg small any more.

Do you think I've gotten over the wrost of it? How when I know it's "safe" again?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I would do daily PWC for a week just to be on the safe side. All those Amanos dying yesterday to me suggests that there's still some in there.  Plus the yellow water. You can check your Purigen at the end of the week, and that might give you a good indication?

Are you getting a carpeting plant going? The best LT solution IMO will be to let those MTS do their thing plus try to get as much substrate rooted as possible... If you're going to do any more planting, now would be the time before you allow time to pass and build up any more anaerobic spots.

Otherwise, I would leave things alone.

Don't add any more equipment or livestock for at least a few weeks to a month to let things settle in.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

The only carpet plant is the gloss. And it's growing well. 

Does the HS cause cloudy water as well?

Also when doing the water changes - how do you do EI? do you put fert back in every time, if so how much? If I dont' put any ferts in I'll have an alga issue I think, right?


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## captain_bu (Oct 20, 2007)

lauraleellbp said:


> Those symptoms are classic; I'd actually put money on this one.


Along with moving plants around a lot he has also been doing a lot of water changes and dosing his tank with Prime. It says right on the label "Sulphur odor is normal". Rotten eggs smell like sulphur. Bad bet... not in that you may not be right but it is not a slam dunk and you might lose your money. Still I would suspect degraded water quality based on the amount of disturbances he has made to the substrate. But I also would not rule out a substantial change in the amount of CO2 going in to the tank after changing from the diffuser to the reactor having contributed to the deaths of the fish.

This is a quote from a post of yours dated 3/4 the subject of the thread is "Drop Checker"

Rick said:
"I have something close to this going on. I am using the 4kh with my drop checker. The drop checker color is always really light yellow. Even in the morning when I wake up it is still yellow. I can't figure out what's going on. 

Is it possible that I have THAT much co2 in my tank that it doesn't even all get out at night?"


Did you ever resolve this? This was before you changed to the reactor because your diffuser wasn't dissolving all of the CO2 bubbles. If the reactor is more efficient and you didn't adjust your CO2 rate you should have even more CO2 in the water. Were you ever able to adjust it so that the drop checker stayed green instead of yellow? 
__________________


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Yes I suspect the HS is what's turning the water yellow- it's a sulphur compound, which is also why it smells like rotten eggs.

As far as ferts go, you could always put smaller doses of everything in each day, or you could just figure that if you change out 10% of your water each day it's probably not going to overall affect your levels any more than one 50% change would...

IMO I'd just do the PWC to remove toxins from the water and worry about ferts and algae later. HS can also kill plants.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

captain_bu said:


> Along with moving plants around a lot he has also been doing a lot of water changes and dosing his tank with Prime. It says right on the label "Sulphur odor is normal". Rotten eggs smell like sulphur. Bad bet... not in that you may not be right but it is not a slam dunk and you might lose your money. Still I would suspect degraded water quality based on the amount of disturbances he has made to the substrate. But I also would not rule out a substantial change in the amount of CO2 going in to the tank after changing from the diffuser to the reactor having contributed to the deaths of the fish.
> 
> This is a quote from a post of yours dated 3/4 the subject of the thread is "Drop Checker"
> 
> ...


yes I did resolve it. My drop checker is in the light green stage during the day, and it's a light blue when I wake up. When I installed the reactor I readjusted the co2 .


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

captain_bu said:


> Along with moving plants around a lot he has also been doing a lot of water changes and dosing his tank with Prime. It says right on the label "Sulphur odor is normal". Rotten eggs smell like sulphur. Bad bet... not in that you may not be right but it is not a slam dunk and you might lose your money. Still I would suspect degraded water quality based on the amount of disturbances he has made to the substrate. But I also would not rule out a substantial change in the amount of CO2 going in to the tank after changing from the diffuser to the reactor having contributed to the deaths of the fish.
> 
> This is a quote from a post of yours dated 3/4 the subject of the thread is "Drop Checker"
> 
> ...


Bu- those are good points. However, Prime should not turn the water yellow, plus his ammonia, nitrIte and nitrAte readings have been looking good over several days.

That CO2 point is still an excellent one, however.

Rick- another object lesson in not spreading info out into too many threads when trying to address problems- info can get lost! :smile: 

I still think HS in the primary water quality culprit, but the CO2 may also still have some issues.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> Yes I suspect the HS is what's turning the water yellow- it's a sulphur compound, which is also why it smells like rotten eggs.
> 
> As far as ferts go, you could always put smaller doses of everything in each day, or you could just figure that if you change out 10% of your water each day it's probably not going to overall affect your levels any more than one 50% change would...
> 
> IMO I'd just do the PWC to remove toxins from the water and worry about ferts and algae later. HS can also kill plants.


And you think I should do 25% 2 x's a day , right? Each time do I put in 48 drops of prime? (it says 2 drops for each gallon, and I need treat the whole tank) so I would be putting in almost 100 drops a day, correct? Just want to make sure I don't create another problem by putting in to much of this stuff.

How do I know when the water is safe? Will it clear up? Do I change the water until it clears up, or even if it clears up, keep doing it 2 x's a day?

Thanks again for the advice. I feel like we made a break through tonight. Maybe everyone just need a few hours to relax, then come back to this. 

Regardless thinks SO MUCH for everyone's time.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> Rick- another object lesson in not spreading info out into too many threads when trying to address problems- info can get lost! :smile:



your right - I've learned my lesson. That's why after this mess I'm ONLY going to post on my 25 gallon post that I made, to keep everything in one place. (I'll reference this post just in case anyone ever needs to see it) - but from now on it will all say in one place - I promise!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Why don't you just treat the bucket of water instead of the whole tank?

I've read SeaChem say that you can't OD Prime, but I still prefer to err on the side of the minimum amount of chemicals necessary to do a job is a good thing.

I would do at least one or two PWC daily for a week, and then take a look at your Purigen.

Just visibly clear water does not necessarily mean that the quality is good. I always try to err on the side of caution that favors the fish. You can never do too many PWC for fish.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

One more thing - I just thought of this. I didn't have this problem until I had the clown's. could it be that the MTS was keeping those pockets from forming. then I bought the clowns and they were eating all my MTS's and therefore allowing these pockets to form. Now I got rid of my clowns and the MTS's are starting to reproduce and do their job again?
Just a thought? (I'm learning


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Makes sense to me, at least?


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> Why don't you just treat the bucket of water instead of the whole tank?


That's what I will do. thanks!


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

rick4him said:


> I got my water tested - here is the results
> KH - 120
> ph - 6.4


By my handy little calculator... CO2 = 80ppm

you may want to crank that down a bit....

Why did you ne ver mention the Rotten egg smell before? Where was this discussion on all these fish changes, the snails, etc. about 13 pages ago?

Rick, this is why I got frustrated with you. Partial info, divulged over days in multiple threads.

Makes life easier when you can spill it all out earlier.

Nice work everyone... looks like this thread is finally heading in a positive (somewhat) conclusion.


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## SPC (Jan 14, 2008)

rick4him said:


> AHHHHHH I think we're on to something. I HAD 2 clown loaches, they eat snails. I got rid of them on Saturday, now I"m seeing the MTS. Could it be that the clowns were eating all the MTS, and now they are gone, the MTS are coming out.!!!!


IMO loaches can't eat MTS due to the thickness of their shell.

MTS should not borrow to the depth (anaerobic) where HS may be present.
Steve


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

They wouldn't have burrowed into the HS or else they wouldn't be alive, but perhaps burrowing through the top layer of substrate kept enough circulation going in the next layer?

It's all just speculation, really.

I know my yoyo loach is quite capable of eating MTS.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

gmccreedy said:


> By my handy little calculator... CO2 = 80ppm
> 
> you may want to crank that down a bit....
> 
> ...


You know what to be honest I just thought that was from the prime (I thought I read somewhere that it can create a bad smell like that), or that it was just a normal smell and that it would go away on its on. (that's what happens when you assume!)

So I'm sorry for that - "my bad"

However I will be MUCH more detailed in future posts. (I really am trying - I promise..) Can we wipe the slate clean? I maybe annoying sometimes, but I am teachable - I promise.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

SPC said:


> IMO loaches can't eat MTS due to the thickness of their shell.
> 
> MTS should not borrow to the depth (anaerobic) where HS may be present.
> Steve


Hmmm - their shell isn't very big at all - in fact they are so small they don't even really look like they have a shell . (you almost need a microscope to see that their shell is indeed shaped like a trumpet.) - I would guess that those clowns could have eaten the MTS without even chewing  But that's just a guess. 

I'm not at home now - but will be in a few hours - I'll see how things look today. I know the water was still cloudy when I left this morning. Do you think it would be wise to get one of those cheap petsmart UV things and put that in there for a few days to help clear out what ever is going on in their? (Again I know people have told me to not make so many changes so I don't want to make a change and people get mad at me again - I'm willing to get a UV thing and try it off if you guys think it will be helpful.

Thanks again for all your help.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Its your tank not mine. Do as you will, I have no hard feelings, just a bit frustrated.

Now, about the CO2 levels... any explanation on that? Are you _SURE _ that the pH and kH readings you took were accurate?? 

This also may be why you are hearing the "slushing" in your reactor. you are inundating the water column in the reactor.

What do you have the bubble rate set too?

And yes, Prime does have a sulfer odor, but it should disapate shortly thereafter use. Are you smelling this "rotten egg" odor for an extended period of time?


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## trackhazard (Aug 24, 2006)

I've used Prime for a long time now and I've never had an instance where my tank actually smelled bad because of it. Usually, you catch a whiff when you pour it into your water but once it gets dissolved, you really can't smell it.

-Charlie


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

gmccreedy said:


> Its your tank not mine. Do as you will, I have no hard feelings, just a bit frustrated.
> 
> Now, about the CO2 levels... any explanation on that? Are you _SURE _ that the pH and kH readings you took were accurate??
> 
> ...



I'm not home right now, but the co2 is staying in the light green during the day. I'm just a little over 2 bps right now. 

Thanks for still working with me - I really don't mean to frustrate you - I"m sorry if it came across that you built me a bad reactor - the reactor you built is GREAT, and I really tankful for you building it for me. I'm glad to have it.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

Well I came home this afternoon to check on things - and this is what I came home to.

It looks REALLY green in these pictures, but it doesn't look nearly this green in person. (the camera for some reason is making it appear greener then it really is for some reason.) However it does at least appear to be green water. (by the way I took water out of the tank and put it in a white bowl and it did look yellow - not green, which is a little odd.)

I did a 50% water change, and I bought a UV thing from Pets Mart. (they only had the 24 w one - it barely fits in my tank!) I guess I'll see what happens over the next few days.

Also before I did the water change I tested all my water stats - Here they are:
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - .25
Nitrate - 0
Phosphate - 2.0
GH - 140
KH - 90
ph - 6.6

Thoughts?


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

Just a thought Rick, when using prime it'll be a lot easier to just use 1/2 of a capfull instead of 50 or how many drops you use.

I use a full cap for my 55 for 2 years now right into the tank with no ill effects.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

Ha - Ha - thanks. I've been counting the drops. It would also depend on what size cap you have right? I've been using the really small bottle because it has the dropper. But I just bought a big bottle from Al's so I'll probably just figure out how many teaspoons it is. Counting those drops gets REALLY old, REALLY quick.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

rick4him said:


> Well I came home this afternoon to check on things - and this is what I came home to.
> 
> It looks REALLY green in these pictures, but it doesn't look nearly this green in person. (the camera for some reason is making it appear greener then it really is for some reason.) However it does at least appear to be green water. (by the way I took water out of the tank and put it in a white bowl and it did look yellow - not green, which is a little odd.)
> 
> ...


Are you still pumping CO2? kH and pH has your CO2 off the charts.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

gmccreedy said:


> Are you still pumping CO2? kH and pH has your CO2 off the charts.


Yes I am pupping co2 in. But my drop checker is that light green color.....

Why do you think there is a conflict?


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

I am not sure. This is out of my area now. I always saw those drop checkers as a convenience and never really liked mine, however some people swear by them. Have you changed the fluid in it recently to make sure its accurate?

Are you sure its green because your water is green...you sure your eyes aren't playing tricks on you?


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

gmccreedy said:


> I am not sure. This is out of my area now. I always saw those drop checkers as a convenience and never really liked mine, however some people swear by them. Have you changed the fluid in it recently to make sure its accurate?
> 
> Are you sure its green because your water is green...you sure your eyes aren't playing tricks on you?


I"m pretty sure (i put a white card behind it to make sure) - I'm going to do refill it , and put it back in, and see what it looks like in a few hours.

What about this green water? Do you think those pockets we were talking about caused this massive green water?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'd still leave things alone in the tank. Keep an eye on the nitrItes- that reading is slightly concerning, but good chance it's just b/c of all the water changes you've been doing. I would keep up with those still for a week, keep checking your levels every day, and make a PWC immediately if your nitrItes jump over 0.25. It may just be the way the Prime affecting the cycle, slowing things down a little.

You might investigate your CO2 setup a little more- that's over my head as well since I've never used the stuff.

If it's green water, it might also be a result of all the changes. Again something I'd mostly let be for now to let things settle down a little. The UV will probably take care of it, anyways.

Did you ever test your tapwater? (probably but I'm just not up to scrolling through 13 pages again today... LOL)


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

Well, you now have nitrite, which points to the tank still cycling. Now I'm confused, because it looked like your tank was cycled based on your previous parameters. I'm not sure if you have greenwater or a bacteria bloom, based on these params, it could be either. 

I am not convinced that the gas pockets are what killed your fish. Based on the pictures of your fish, it looked like something else was happening. When my neons were stressed in the past, the color faded uniformly, not with white patches. It is, however, consistent with your purigen changing color (at least according to some websites I read. I've never used purigen).

People use drop checkers instead of the pH/kH because sometimes your kH reading may be off, since your tank water may contain things that alter the test result. Drop checkers basically hold your kH constant at 4dkH by using a known solution, and using the same pH test indicator solution that changes color when the CO2 gas changes the pH of the solution. I am not certain what can cause your kH reading to be off, but this is what I have been told. I am currently also experiencing issues with my drop checker. Apparently, your solution can stay yellow permanently if the CO2 levels are high enough. I am trying to figure out what is going on in my tank. My checker was yellow yesterday, so I shut off my CO2. It was still yellow 2 hours later, so I unplugged the solenoid altogether. Today, it is green. I am waiting to see if it will return to blue.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> I'd still leave things alone in the tank. Keep an eye on the nitrItes- that reading is slightly concerning, but good chance it's just b/c of all the water changes you've been doing. I would keep up with those still for a week, keep checking your levels every day, and make a PWC immediately if your nitrItes jump over 0.25. It may just be the way the Prime affecting the cycle, slowing things down a little.
> 
> You might investigate your CO2 setup a little more- that's over my head as well since I've never used the stuff.
> 
> ...


Ok I just did a complete test on my tap water : 
nitrite - 0
nitrate - 0
posphate - 0
ph - 6.6
kh - 90
gh - 140
ammonia - .50


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

fishscale said:


> Well, you now have nitrite, which points to the tank still cycling. Now I'm confused, because it looked like your tank was cycled based on your previous parameters. I'm not sure if you have greenwater or a bacteria bloom, based on these params, it could be either.
> 
> I am not convinced that the gas pockets are what killed your fish. Based on the pictures of your fish, it looked like something else was happening. When my neons were stressed in the past, the color faded uniformly, not with white patches. It is, however, consistent with your purigen changing color (at least according to some websites I read. I've never used purigen).
> 
> People use drop checkers instead of the pH/kH because sometimes your kH reading may be off, since your tank water may contain things that alter the test result. Drop checkers basically hold your kH constant at 4dkH by using a known solution, and using the same pH test indicator solution that changes color when the CO2 gas changes the pH of the solution. I am not certain what can cause your kH reading to be off, but this is what I have been told. I am currently also experiencing issues with my drop checker. Apparently, your solution can stay yellow permanently if the CO2 levels are high enough. I am trying to figure out what is going on in my tank. My checker was yellow yesterday, so I shut off my CO2. It was still yellow 2 hours later, so I unplugged the solenoid altogether. Today, it is green. I am waiting to see if it will return to blue.



Well I tested the nitrite's just now (about an hour or so after the water change) and they are at 0.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

0.5 ammonia in the water is something you need to account for. To me the nitrIte reading probably came from that- and actually is an indication that your tank is very well cycled, since the ammonia was converted so quickly. Ammonia in your tap water is also a potential cause for green water, especially with the lighting you have over this tank. Have you tried any floating plants, perhaps Pistia? They could help with green water, if that's what you have. (Floating plants are easy to add and easy to remove without disturbing the substrate LOL)


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> 0.5 ammonia in the water is something you need to account for. To me the nitrIte reading probably came from that- and actually is an indication that your tank is very well cycled, since the ammonia was converted so quickly. Ammonia in your tap water is also a potential cause for green water, especially with the lighting you have over this tank. Have you tried any floating plants, perhaps Pistia? They could help with green water, if that's what you have. (Floating plants are easy to add and easy to remove without disturbing the substrate LOL)


No I haven't thought about adding those. So what is the way of getting around this ammonia in the water?

The weird thing is I have been using this water for a long time, and I have never had an issue with green water like this. 

Also do you think I should do another water change tonight? (that would be 2 in one day today)


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## JSCOOK (Jan 7, 2008)

I can't recall, but has anyone questioned the actual test kit itself for the reading, like having the LFS confirm the readings using their own kits?

In all the years that I've been messing with aquariums, I am really finding it hard to believe that some gas pocket is causing this problem ... I do agree that the purigen is pointing to something like this, but I still don't buy it ... call it gut feeling or what have you.

However I have never used the substrate mentioned here ...

To get an acturate reading on a drop checker, you need to use a "reference" or a "control" solution typically 4dkH in order to provide a valid reading as mentioned ...

Just a thought here ... what is the iron (Fe) level of your tap water and the water in yout tank?


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

JSCOOK said:


> I can't recall, but has anyone questioned the actual test kit itself for the reading, like having the LFS confirm the readings using their own kits?
> 
> In all the years that I've been messing with aquariums, I am really finding it hard to believe that some gas pocket is causing this problem ... I do agree that the purigen is pointing to something like this, but I still don't buy it ... call it gut feeling or what have you.
> 
> ...


I am using the 4dkH solution in my drop checker. By the way how do I test for iron? I bought some iron drops, but I was going to return them because people were saying they don't really work very well. How do I test iron? 

It's so weird - I did the water change when I came home (about 2-3 hours ago) and it was a little clear for a little while. Now its slowly, but surely, turning back to that green color it was when I came home today! 
uggggg


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

That amount of ammonia in your tap water is a great way to feed algae, particularly with the lighting and ferts you also have going into this tank.

Floating plants such as Pistia or Hygro are great nutrient-sinks and can outcompete algae for the light, ammonia, and other nutrients.

Again, it's a matter of finding the balance with your tank, the "sweet spot" with your lighting vs plant load vs ferts vs CO2 vs bioload... and all a matter of trial and error. You need to understand the cause and effect relationships between all of these elements, as increasing or decreasing any one of them can cause changes in the others.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2008)

HEY GUESS WHAT!!!!!! So I had to take out the one small piece of drift wood on the right side...(there wasn't enough room with the UV unit in, it kept knocking things around.) When I took it out ALL (BUT 1 or 2) OF MY SHRIMP THAT I THOUGHT WERE DEAD WERE UNDER THAT DRIFT WOOD - ALIEVE!!!!!

So I really only lost the 1 or 2 of my amino shrimp! That's good news. I just tested my nitrite again it it's at 0 still!


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## kaifyre (Jul 16, 2007)

Don't know what to tell ya, kid, except that you have green water and water problems out the yin/yang!!
Let the UV sit tight for a few days and let the tank relax. Really there are so many different things going on with your tank right now that there could be a bunch of problems all together. 
Glad your shrimp are okay ; ))

--Kai


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## SPC (Jan 14, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> They wouldn't have burrowed into the HS or else they wouldn't be alive, but perhaps burrowing through the top layer of substrate kept enough circulation going in the next layer?


I suppose this is possible and if so then we should not see any HS problems in tanks with MTS. I don't recall, but I wonder how long Rick had his MTS before he added the loaches, and then how long did he have the loaches? I do remember reading where his substrate is 1.5 years old (at least I think I remember reading this on one of the many threads ).

*I know my yoyo loach is quite capable of eating MTS. *

What is the method that your loach uses to eat these? Do they actually suck them out of the shell?



rick4him said:


> Hmmm - their shell isn't very big at all - in fact they are so small they don't even really look like they have a shell . (you almost need a microscope to see that their shell is indeed shaped like a trumpet.)


Hmmm, I don't recall ever seeing MTS so small that "you almost needed a microsope to see them" or so small that "don't really look that have a shell". If this is the size snail that you have in your system, then IMO they wouldn't have any significant impact on anything. But I'm not sure if this is really revelant to your current situation anyway, as you have already stated that you began to see snails after the loaches were removed which means that there had to be snails in your tank all along.

Steve


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

SPC said:


> *I know my yoyo loach is quite capable of eating MTS. *
> 
> What is the method that your loach uses to eat these? Do they actually suck them out of the shell?
> 
> ...


Yoyo crunched on the shells- I could hear it. Never tried to figure out how big of MTS he tackled, though- I wouldnt be surprised if it was just the smaller ones. MTS are livebearers, so their young are pretty small. I've never had problems with anaerobic spots in my tank with 3" of Fluorite that's full of MTS, and I commonly hear reports that they are used by people specifically to aerate the substrate. Most critters in general that burrow through substrate help improve aeration (earthworms in gardens, bristleworms in SW tanks, etc.)


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2008)

Well guys I got GOOD NEWS! I woke up this morning to what I would say is a 90% clear tank. I did a 50% water change again this morning, and I'll see how it looks tomorrow. It does indeed look like the UV device I bought yesterday pretty muched cleaned up all of that mess you saw in my pictures from yesterday. Also all of my fish seem to be doing fine in the tank. The one card. tetra I had left is looking sad (because he lost all of his friends) but other then that seems to be doing fine.) 

Let's say tomorrow the tank looks as if it's back to normal, and I take out the UV device. Will the water go back to the way it was? I don't understand what or how caused it to do that in the first place - but as many have said I"m sure it has to do with all the changes I've made to my tank. So if the water is clear, and my water tests are fine does that mean I"m out of the water? (no pun intended.....)


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'd leave the UV where it is for now- remember, you're trying to create some stability in this tank.

We haven't conclusively identified the source of the GW. At this point, though, you need to let the tank rest as much as possible; that alone could fix the imbalance if one still exists.

I'd keep up the PWC. 

Have you taken a look at the newest batch of Purigen in there?


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> I'd leave the UV where it is for now- remember, you're trying to create some stability in this tank.
> 
> We haven't conclusively identified the source of the GW. At this point, though, you need to let the tank rest as much as possible; that alone could fix the imbalance if one still exists.
> 
> ...


Not since I put it in on Sunday. I didn't want to stop everything and open up my filter again. I was told the best thing to do is just let things rest for a little while without opening up my filter. So that's what I was planning on doing....


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

OK. There's no real need to open the filter (though in truth just shutting it off for a few min is not that big a deal.) I wouldn't stop the daily PWC though unless your Purigen is still nice and white; otherwise its an indication that toxins are still present in your water column.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Rick,

No more touching the filter. Aside for random maintenance, which in reality you shouldn't need much, but this is a matter of preference.

FWIW, I have opened my filters maybe twice in the last year and have no ill affects from it.

I would leave the UV in there as Laura said and just not touch anything.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2008)

gmccreedy said:


> Rick,
> 
> No more touching the filter. Aside for random maintenance, which in reality you shouldn't need much, but this is a matter of preference.
> 
> ...


That's what I'm doing....


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2008)

Here are some pictures from today - as you can see A HUGE change from the pictures I posted yesterday...


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

:thumbsup: 

Glad things are finally going in a postive direction!


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> Glad things are finally going in a postive direction!


How do you think things look? The gloss if finally filling in nicely...


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

I forgot to mention in a reply to one of your questions you posed about your cardinal tetras loosing their tails. More than likely your Serpae tetras nipped them off. I bought 8 neons and my serpaes removed the tails of 6. The two that survived where fast enough to stay out of harms way.


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## SPC (Jan 14, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> I've never had problems with anaerobic spots in my tank with 3" of Fluorite that's full of MTS,


IME substrates with the paticle size of Fluorite would take quite some time to get to this point (large HS zones) in a heavily planted healthy tank.

*and I commonly hear reports that they are used by people specifically to aerate the substrate.*

Yes I also have read this over the years, but I must question the logic behind this. We need to keep in mind that every living thing in our closed systems is producing waste, and some of this finds it's way to the substrate where gravity comes into play. The MTS may consume a bit of this, but then as we know they produce their own waste. If left unchecked (no substrate vacuuming) this detritus will build up over time, and what once might have been a narrow anaerobic zone begins to widen. Plant roots of course help with this problem, but IMO it is the function they play in removing potentially harmful substances from the substate and turning them into plant mass that is their most important roll. 

In nature systems go eutrophic all of the time,even though they may contain large amounts of plants and substrate critters (many more critters in the substrate then our closed systems contain). 

*
Mostcritters in general that burrow through substrate help improve aeration (earthworms in gardens, bristleworms in SW tanks, etc.)*

True, they help aerate the zone that contains oxygen. What I always try and remind myself about when dealing with substrate in a closed system is that gravity will always win out in the end. Now, where we are lucky in a planted tank is the fact that we have root systems removing many compounds from the substrate, but this still will not completly remove the build up of detritus over time. If MTS (or any other substrate critter) were truly benificial in our tanks health, then why should we waist our time vacuuming substrates in non plant tanks?

IMO the idea of "healthy, heavily planted tank" cannot be emphasized enough when discussing the topic of substrates, and no amount,or kind of critters are going to stop a subtrate from going south without this if we don't employ some mechanical means to address this.

Eric, your tank look's great, way to go!

Steve


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

> IMO the idea of "healthy, heavily planted tank" cannot be emphasized enough when discussing the topic of substrates, and no amount,or kind of critters are going to stop a subtrate from going south without this if we don't employ some mechanical means to address this.


Totally agree. Reason I still use UG filters on all my fish-only tanks, and have considered a reverse-flow UG on planted, but I think they'd still end up clogging since I like swords so much...

And Rick, your tank is starting to grow in nicely.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2008)

SPC said:


> IME substrates with the paticle size of Fluorite would take quite some time to get to this point (large HS zones) in a heavily planted healthy tank.
> 
> *and I commonly hear reports that they are used by people specifically to aerate the substrate.*
> 
> ...


who is Eric?


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