# Sponge filter vs Undergravel for shrimp?



## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Both!


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## dannylc (Jul 9, 2012)

Right lol, just so happens I have a pump big enough to power both, now how would I go about cycling a shrimp only tank?


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

I use ramshorn snails as an ammonia source, but you can use ammonia or fish food or a dead prawn from the grocery store as an ammonia source.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

The same way you cycle any sort of aquarium.

Lots of folks "cycle" for an extra few weeks to a month once finished, though, to help the tank mature and be more shrimp-friendly.


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## dannylc (Jul 9, 2012)

Thanks, was unsure if the normal way was ok as they need micro bugs etc to feed on and was not sure if they would build up sufficiently with a normal cycle.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

That's why I use snails, because the slime trail they leave behind while moving is a nutrient rich slurry that grows infusoria and bacteria very well.


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## dannylc (Jul 9, 2012)

Great thanks


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## cantsay39 (Jun 10, 2011)

sponge filter is better cleaning under gravel is messy... sponge can be changed so it's good plus good aeration~~


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## rrastro (Jun 14, 2012)

What kind of shrimp?
Don't think cherries or other neos really need super filtration. Just a sponge would be fine and much more simple.


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## artega (Apr 19, 2012)

Great filter for your tank would be this 
http://www.aqmagic.com/filtration/apesx-1100-aquarium-sponge-filter-gallon-p-82.html


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## dannylc (Jul 9, 2012)

I will be having Neocaridina sp. zhangjiajiensis ( blue ) to begin with, decided I will go with a double head sponge filter like the one in the link above but with two heads instead of one.


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## artega (Apr 19, 2012)

dannylc said:


> I will be having Neocaridina sp. zhangjiajiensis ( blue ) to begin with, decided I will go with a double head sponge filter like the one in the link above but with two heads instead of one.


Are you talking about the APESX 2300 the one for tanks 55g and more?
These are great filters for shrimp and rather cheap not in quality but price.


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## dannylc (Jul 9, 2012)

Yeah the same as that although a different brand here in the UK


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

No need for UGF if you don't want/have one. I keep TB's and PRL just fine in this setup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxOP0avz5_0&feature=g-upl

Very simple setup and keeps water crystal clear.


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## Kunsthure (Aug 2, 2010)

A lot of people run their UGF off a canister, so it's not the PITA to clean like a traditional UGF. I regret not putting one in my 13g because I hate mulm with a passion. But my tank is on the kitchen counter, so no room even for a little canister. 

I find sponge filters to be unsightly and take up too much space. I have two HOBs on my 13g and they clean the water way better than any sponge can. Plus it gives me a lot more space for 'scaping. But it's up to each person what to use. 

-Lisa


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

As others have said for a 10G tank I think canister driven UGF is a bit much. With larger tanks I hear having a UGF is much much better though :X.

As for my 10g I would just use either a HOB filter or some sponge filters!


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## mubender (Mar 16, 2009)

Sponge filters can be unsightly up until the point that you find 50+shrimplets grazing on the bacteria/food remnants on the sponge itself. Then suddenly it becomes the most gorgeous decoration in the tank.


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## artega (Apr 19, 2012)

mubender said:


> Sponge filters can be unsightly up until the point that you find 50+shrimplets grazing on the bacteria/food remnants on the sponge itself. Then suddenly it becomes the most gorgeous decoration in the tank.


I agree, once you get enough shrimp the sponge filter is no longer an eye sore. As long as your water parameters are fine you will have plenty of shrimp in no time. Good choice on the filter though and good luck with the shrimp.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Kunsthure said:


> I regret not putting one in my 13g because I hate mulm with a passion.
> -Lisa


So after months of repeated posts of you telling people not to use a UGF in anything under a 20 gallon because ONE poster told you the same thing, you've suddenly changed your tune??? 

I'm still on the fence about doing one in my 12g right now. I am leaning towards skipping it. Worst case scenario if I decide I need one down the line it will require me buying a holding tank for the shrimps in order to a rescape the 12L and that means another extra shrimp tank. Win win. LOL!


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## dannylc (Jul 9, 2012)

I have used UG before on 10g up to 100g and found it great and never had to remove the plate or plates to clean under it, just stick a thin hose under it by removing the up pipe or pipes and syphon the [censored][censored][censored][censored] out, you may not get it all but you get most of it.

I decided on a twin sponge system as it is cheap and easy ad means I can change the substrate and scape easily if I decide to where as with UG the substrate becomes the filter and you can not just change it if you decide too.


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## Beer (Feb 1, 2012)

I am starting to reconsider UGF after seeing all these posts lately.

I am considering PVC UGF driven by a Tom's rapids mini (80 GPH) supplemented with a second Tom's or a powerhead behind a sponge similar to a HMF idea, but set up like a corner or center overflow. I'm thinking that with the UGF, an inert substrate will be fine because the flow will draw nutrients through the substrate for plants mainly uptake through their roots.

I like the size and look of the black diamond and the plants seem to set root in it pretty well. But, I wonder if I will have issues with flow through the substrate. Those of you with experience with these, do you need the larger granule size to get the flow for UGF if you are running them with a canister filter? I can use gravel around the pipes and screen or mesh over that before laying down the black diamond to keep it out of the intake.


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## Kunsthure (Aug 2, 2010)

ravensgate said:


> So after months of repeated posts of you telling people not to use a UGF in anything under a 20 gallon because ONE poster told you the same thing, you've suddenly changed your tune???


"Months" is a bit of an exaggeration. And I would always preface the advice with "I was told by someone here..." so I was _not_ telling people not to use them, I was passing on the advice someone gave me that made sense to me at the time. People are allowed to change their minds without someone else giving them about crap about it. 

-Lisa


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Kunsthure said:


> "Months" is a bit of an exaggeration. And I would always preface the advice with "I was told by someone here..." so I was _not_ telling people not to use them, I was passing on the advice someone gave me that made sense to me at the time. People are allowed to change their minds without someone else giving them about crap about it.
> 
> -Lisa


I've been here a few months and have read repeated posts from you about it so nah, I don't think that was an exaggeration at all. You were telling anyone that asked about it and then when one person asked you the reasoning behind it you never came back and said anything. I finally found the one thread someone said it was useless in something under 20 gallons and I didn't see any reasonings or studies to back up that claim myself. One person said something and you ran with it. I'd rather go with what works for multiple people myself not what one person says. When new folks ask for advice even one statement like that can possibly lead to headaches later. It just might be better to link folks to threads than give advice you aren't real sure about. Just my .02.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

@ravensgate, Liam was also saying for 10g tanks it's not really "worth" setting up a UGF. He would definitely recommend one for 20L's and up. If you really want a quote from him I can go dig it up. From that, I have also been passing the same information on.

My assumption on the reasoning is that UGF provides a much better filtration that expensive shrimps require. These expensive shrimps also require stable parameters, which a 10G tank doesn't really apply. Not only that, you'll be using RO/DI water and require buffering from active substrate. A 20L provides more than double the amount of substrate a 10G does, therefore prolonging the life of the substrate.


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## rrastro (Jun 14, 2012)

Beer said:


> Those of you with experience with these, do you need the larger granule size to get the flow for UGF if you are running them with a canister filter? I can use gravel around the pipes and screen or mesh over that before laying down the black diamond to keep it out of the intake.


Lots of people who set up UG filters have progressive grades of substrate, from coarse to fine, ascending. Another idea is to use something porous like seachem matrix or even regular sponge material at the UG level and then adding regular substrate on top.
I decided to go for reverse-flow UG so that I won't have to worry about clogging.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Diwu, see I somewhat disagree, I think you can get stable params with a 10 gallon. Obviously the larger the area the more stable but I think wiping out 'anything under 20g' doesn't need one might not necessarily be true and if those blanket statements are made, if I were the poster asking (which I have been) I want reasons behind it. Once I get the reasons, studies, etc, I can make a more informed decision for myself. I've also read that a UGF can possibly exhaust substrate faster. I wanted to do one like Liam suggests but on a 12G. Instead of taking one person's advice though, I've researched and researched and researched and weighed out the pros and cons. I think doing ones that cover only small corners of the tank might be beneficial. Full tank UGF might be useless or more work than they're worth in smaller tank but for partial UGFs there may still be a heavy pro side. I just like reasons when I hear info Call me crazy! LOL! It's frustrating for folks trying to learn.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

ravensgate said:


> Diwu, see I somewhat disagree, I think you can get stable params with a 10 gallon. Obviously the larger the area the more stable but I think wiping out 'anything under 20g' doesn't need one might not necessarily be true and if those blanket statements are made, if I were the poster asking (which I have been) I want reasons behind it. Once I get the reasons, studies, etc, I can make a more informed decision for myself. I've also read that a UGF can possibly exhaust substrate faster. I wanted to do one like Liam suggests but on a 12G. Instead of taking one person's advice though, I've researched and researched and researched and weighed out the pros and cons. I think doing ones that cover only small corners of the tank might be beneficial. Full tank UGF might be useless or more work than they're worth in smaller tank but for partial UGFs there may still be a heavy pro side. I just like reasons when I hear info Call me crazy! LOL! It's frustrating for folks trying to learn.


Yea I understand. Back when Liam posted his thoughts it was before people were heavily interested in 12L's or what not. A few months back it was either 10G, or 20L lol. But either way, having a 20L will 100% have more stable parameters compared to a 10G. And yea, UGF's exhuast active substrate faster as it pulls water through the entire substrate. Whereas in a regular tank only the top most layer buffers until it wears out.

Partial UGFs would work very well. Even on small tanks. You can't plant stem plants near UGFs as their roots will die off with the highly oxygenated water flowing through them. h4n made a UGF only near the front of his tank, so he could plant stems all along the back.


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## rrastro (Jun 14, 2012)

If you're looking for heavy duty data on UGF, then plantbrain is who you might want to talk to. He's got reference material on redox and related topics that is not light reading.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Diwu, see that's what I'm talking about. That's very good info I'm still on the fence about the partial but it's because I'm wondering about pH. Someone had mentioned in another thread where I had brought up some questions that when they had the UGF running, their pH was at 6.0. Without it it was at 7.2. I think if you were going to go with the higher end, low pH shrimps that might work well, even if you're exhausting it a little faster. With a partial UGF I wonder if it would just exhaust the substrate directly over the UGF or if it would exhaust all of it faster (in the case of smaller tanks/smaller footprints). Then of course, reverse flow comes into play or do you run it on a powerhead, air pump/airstone, and what the pros and cons of those are. I think with certain variables it would work fantastic on smaller tanks. However, I'm still learning so I will leave that to the folks that have used them to chime in with actual advice, I'm just tossing out thoughts I've had on it and questions I still have


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

rrastro said:


> If you're looking for heavy duty data on UGF, then plantbrain is who you might want to talk to. He's got reference material on redox and related topics that is not light reading.


Thank you! I'm up for some heavy reading this weekend


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

diwu13 said:


> Part You can't plant stem plants near UGFs as their roots will die off with the highly oxygenated water flowing through them. .


this is not true

flow may play a factor but not oxygen
plants readily supply their roots with tons of oxygen during the light cycle. they are feeding their symbiotic partners (bacteria) to aid in the breakdown of organics.

it well may be that debris does not build up enough for the roots to retain nutrients. and theirfor the pants try to feed in a more foliar manner, rejecting their roots for more available nutrients elsewhere but
the oxygen would only be plus


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> this is not true
> 
> flow may play a factor but not oxygen
> plants readily supply their roots with tons of oxygen during the light cycle. they are feeding their symbiotic partners (bacteria) to aid in the breakdown of organics.
> ...


Yup yup you're right. Just read about it more on google. Clogging into the UGF openings is the largest issue with plants over UGF pipes.


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## tobystanton (Jun 27, 2012)

Substrate is aslo a big issue when it comes to UGF's. If your using Akadama it will be fine, but Aquasoil is going to break down fast.


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## dannylc (Jul 9, 2012)

After all this I have decided on a different filter lol I will be using one of these, I will put sponge around the intake.









It is 600lh and will be great for the tank, I will diy something for the water return as I think it will be a bit harsh on the little guys lol

Decided on this as it keeps the tank space open and allows me to have plenty of bio media as well as the surface skimmer attachment.

With this filter I have room to play with stocking levels of both plants and shrimp and as it is only a 10g the added bio media will be a massive help to keep the system stable as I can just use the media from my main tank to boost it up.


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## hedge_fund (Jan 1, 2006)

dannylc said:


> After all this I have decided on a different filter lol I will be using one of these, I will put sponge around the intake.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That little fan thingy on the side of the inlet pipe...is that so it skims the surface getting rid of film? If so, this is a bad filter since shrimp will go right in there. I had one of thees similar contraptions a few years ago and shrimp were constantly going in my filter.

You want a good cheap filter? Get the AQUACLEAR hang on back from amazon. I have two on my 20 gallon shrimp tank...one is rated for a 50 gallon tank and the other is for a 20 (70 gallons total). I also have a small sponge filter too.


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## dannylc (Jul 9, 2012)

hedge_fund said:


> That little fan thingy on the side of the inlet pipe...is that so it skims the surface getting rid of film? If so, this is a bad filter since shrimp will go right in there. I had one of thees similar contraptions a few years ago and shrimp were constantly going in my filter.
> 
> You want a good cheap filter? Get the AQUACLEAR hang on back from amazon. I have two on my 20 gallon shrimp tank...one is rated for a 50 gallon tank and the other is for a 20 (70 gallons total). I also have a small sponge filter too.


It is the skimmer yes, I will cover that up with sponge also  Without the skimmer attachment it is the same as the aquaclear and cost £15 approx $23
I can also just take the skimmer attachment off and just use a single straight pipe.


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## hedge_fund (Jan 1, 2006)

dannylc said:


> It is the skimmer yes, I will cover that up with sponge also  Without the skimmer attachment it is the same as the aquaclear and cost £15 approx $23
> I can also just take the skimmer attachment off and just use a single straight pipe.


Cool. As long as you are aware :bounce:


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

That's a pretty cool HOB with the skimmer actually haha. But yea hedge_fund is right about shrimps going down the pipe.


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## Kunsthure (Aug 2, 2010)

That is a cool HOB! Can you link to where you got it, or give us a name so I can see if I can get it in the States? I've decided to add an HOB to my 37g and that protein skimmer would be really helpful as the tank is heavily stocked with lots of protein scum. 

-Lisa


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## dannylc (Jul 9, 2012)

They do not say anything about international postage but I am sure you will find it on Ali express or ali baba if you by in bulk

ebay.co.uk item number 110888935483

aliexpress.com/product-fm/606143146-FINE-SUNSUN-AQUARIUM-EXTERNAL-HANG-ON-FILTER-10-GALLON-80GPH-wholesalers.html


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## Kunsthure (Aug 2, 2010)

dannylc said:


> They do not say anything about international postage but I am sure you will find it on Ali express or ali baba if you by in bulk
> 
> [Ebay Link Removed] item number 110888935483
> 
> aliexpress.com/product-fm/606143146-FINE-SUNSUN-AQUARIUM-EXTERNAL-HANG-ON-FILTER-10-GALLON-80GPH-wholesalers.html


Oh...it's a SunSun... I'll pass. I hope it doesn't die on you. 

-Lisa


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## dannylc (Jul 9, 2012)

The one I am getting is not named SunSun it is the same as the one shown on Ebay but branded a different name, everything comes from the same place ( China ) anyway and just has different names put on it that's all.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

So its still a sunsun..
They are okay filters.
Great filter for the price. The 402b runs my 10 gallon shrimp tank muwahahahaha


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## Kunsthure (Aug 2, 2010)

I had one SunSun canister outright die on me. I sold off the second, fearing the same; that and I needed more space under my cabinet. I was impressed by the amount of media storage space and the protein skimmer is still a cool feature. It's super cool to find it in an HOB but I'm wary of SunSuns now. If Aquaclear made an HOB with a protein skimmer I'd be all over it. 

-Lisa


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## dannylc (Jul 9, 2012)

Kunsthure said:


> I had one SunSun canister outright die on me. I sold off the second, fearing the same; that and I needed more space under my cabinet. I was impressed by the amount of media storage space and the protein skimmer is still a cool feature. It's super cool to find it in an HOB but I'm wary of SunSuns now. If Aquaclear made an HOB with a protein skimmer I'd be all over it.
> 
> -Lisa


Even if AC had there name on one it would still be from China and 99% chance from the same factory as the SunSun lol

What you are saying is if the one above named SunSun was Named Aquaclear you would by it without a though..... 

Look at things on Ebay there can be 1 product under 20 different brands :thumbsup:


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## Kunsthure (Aug 2, 2010)

dannylc said:


> Even if AC had there name on one it would still be from China and 99% chance from the same factory as the SunSun lol
> 
> What you are saying is if the one above named SunSun was Named Aquaclear you would by it without a though.....
> 
> Look at things on Ebay there can be 1 product under 20 different brands :thumbsup:


No, I'm saying that if Aquaclear made an HOB with a protein skimmer I'd buy it. ACs are probably the best HOBs out there, at least IMO. I have four and two of them have been running for two years without a problem. I haven't had to replace an impeller or any of the media (I don't use charcoal) because it holds up that well. My only complaint about them is that they are not the best when it comes to self-priming, but it's not like it's a big deal to get one going. 

-Lisa


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## dannylc (Jul 9, 2012)

Personally I am under no illusion that this filter will be great and last for ever, at the end of the day you get what you pay for and a cheap filter like that I would be happy to last 2 years. The one I am getting has a 12month warranty. Ebay.co.uk 180899878823

I had Rena and Eheim externals that lasted well over 5 years without a single problem and I ended up selling them when I got rid of my last tank.

I understand a better name on a product gives better piece of mind that the product will be of better quality.


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