# Help with alternanthera reineckii



## xmpjx (May 31, 2015)

Subbing for the info. I lucked out so far and have nice looking alternanthera reineckii but would like to know what helps if I ever have issues.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Is the substrate inert? Adding some root tabs may help. I never thought of AR as being a "heavy root feeder'' but this thread changed my mind. Read the first page to get the gist, and then the last couple pages for specifically how it affected the AR.

Ive since added some root tabs under the ones in my 75, which were doing just barely OK, and they immediately perked up.


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

The old growth is done for as algae has completely taken over. I would go back to basics and troubleshoot the C02. The other plants seem to be coping which could be an indicator that your c02 is low that is why the AR is stunted.

The other "required" solution is to put non-limiting amount of nutrients. What I would do is dose twice the amount of ferts for the next week of doses and observe the tips of the plants. What you are looking for is healthy new growth. Fast growing plants like stem plants should show nice growth even if algae seems to be growing. I say that this is a required solution because you can troubleshoot the C02 but if the nutrient levels are not in balance then you won't make any progress. 

Once you think the growth is stabilizing then tackle the algae problem by removing the old leaves that is infested by algae. I think if you can get 2 inch tips from every plants assuming they are healthy then you can cut the tops and replant those.


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## crisp330 (Dec 1, 2011)

burr740 said:


> Is the substrate inert? Adding some root tabs may help. I never thought of AR as being a "heavy root feeder'' but this thread changed my mind. Read the first page to get the gist, and then the last couple pages for specifically how it affected the AR.
> 
> Ive since added some root tabs under the ones in my 75, which were doing just barely OK, and they immediately perked up.


Wow, that is an awesome thread/experiment! I have Flourite Black Sand but I do put Root Tabs in occasionally. It hadn't had any in for a while, but put some in about a month and a half ago and haven't noticed a significant difference. That was about the same time I got the Alternanthera Reineckii mini, and it looked much better when I got it. Its definitely been going down hill and turning out to look like the regular I've had for a long time. Your thread makes me want to add more root tabs for sure though!

Bump:


PortalMasteryRy said:


> The old growth is done for as algae has completely taken over. I would go back to basics and troubleshoot the C02. The other plants seem to be coping which could be an indicator that your c02 is low that is why the AR is stunted.
> 
> The other "required" solution is to put non-limiting amount of nutrients. What I would do is dose twice the amount of ferts for the next week of doses and observe the tips of the plants. What you are looking for is healthy new growth. Fast growing plants like stem plants should show nice growth even if algae seems to be growing. I say that this is a required solution because you can troubleshoot the C02 but if the nutrient levels are not in balance then you won't make any progress.
> 
> Once you think the growth is stabilizing then tackle the algae problem by removing the old leaves that is infested by algae. I think if you can get 2 inch tips from every plants assuming they are healthy then you can cut the tops and replant those.


Thanks for the advise. Hopefully since I bumped up my CO2 it will help and it's just not had time to adjust yet, as well as starting to dose additional iron. Iron was definitely lacking/nonexistent based off my new iron test kit, even though I've been dosing CSM+B per EI instructions. I seem to have non-limiting amounts of all other ferts that I can test for. Nitrates are usually 30+ppm, Phosphates generally run high as well (well over the limiting amount ~5ppm+ since I was trying to battle GSA so had increased that a few weeks ago).

Hopefully I've already made the necessary adjustments and I need to just be patient and stay on top of things.


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

Remember that you need to keep an eye on the new growth. No point trying to salvage the older leaves. Also I would keep bumping the C02 until you see a reaction from the fish. If you see fish trying to gulp for air once in a while then it means you are close to the limit.

Also watch your CSM+B dosing. No need to overdo it until you see it is a micro nutrient deficiency.


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## crisp330 (Dec 1, 2011)

PortalMasteryRy said:


> Remember that you need to keep an eye on the new growth. No point trying to salvage the older leaves. Also I would keep bumping the C02 until you see a reaction from the fish. If you see fish trying to gulp for air once in a while then it means you are close to the limit.
> 
> Also watch your CSM+B dosing. No need to overdo it until you see it is a micro nutrient deficiency.


Thanks, I will continue to bump up the CO2 as much as possible. I figured the old leaves were a lost cause... just trying to get it to start growing correctly so I can cut and remove all the old nasty stuff and replant it once its growing.

I'll keep my CSM+B dosing on the regular schedule/amounts. Curious why you mention that though. Is that different than the macros in that as long as they're non-limiting they're more or less OK?

I really have no way of testing that other than testing the iron (which was minimal/not-registering with my test kit). So I did start adding iron separately today thinking it could help the red coloration and general health. I've got several other red plants in there that could benefit from it as well (Rotala Macranda "Japan Red", Rotala Mini "Butterfly", and Rotala Wallachi... all growing very well), so hoping that will help.

I added a root tab in the middle of the AR Mini (4 stems) and 3 root tabs along the left side of the tank where the regular AR is. I'm also going to continue to increase my CO2 and dose iron. I'll keep the thread updated and see how it progresses... hopefully I can get some good looking AR.


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

It's not that CO2 or fert demanding actually. You should try burr740's suggestion. It does very well in soil substrates, even with poorer fert/CO2 dosing. I think it is more sensitive to substrate variables than nutrients/CO2 per se. Would want to grow it in at least medium rather than low light for better color as well


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

@crisp330: Overdosing CSM+B without the dialed C02 to drive the plant growth properly might induce toxicity from the micro nutrients which is not going to help. You can probably overdose it but you must do only after a 50% water change to be on the safe side. The 50% will reset nutrient levels so smaller change of excess from the micro nutrients. 

@Xiaozhuang: Putting the plant in soil substrate is basically providing it more nutrients. I suggested dosing twice the amount of nutrients (with the exception of CSM+B) to rule it out as the issue. To simplify, plants need C02, light and nutrients. Does not matter if the nutrients come from the soil or in the water column as long as the plants get what they need to grow. 

I have a nice AR mini growing in Safe-T-Sorb substrate. The substrate I used has low or almost no nutrients but yet I have lush growth and nice consistent coloring. I don't have root tabs anywhere in the tank and the substrate is 2.5 inches thick. I simply dosed the required nutrient level to keep the plants happy. I even ended up overdosing my GH. At one point it was at 16dGH and the plant was still growing.


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

Not implying that you lack nutrients. Growing plants involve more than just nutrients, CO2 and light, this is an over-simplification. The environment matters as well. Nutrient tunnel vision causes people to stalemate at solving problems. Beyond a certain level, the gains are marginal. Everyone uses EI, but you see very different results.

Don't even have to dose full EI to get these results









And this is from a low tech tank, no CO2 or Excel, probably 1/10 EI


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

PortalMasteryRy said:


> I have a nice AR mini growing in Safe-T-Sorb substrate. The substrate I used has low or almost no nutrients but yet I have lush growth and nice consistent coloring. I don't have root tabs anywhere in the tank and the substrate is 2.5 inches thick. I simply dosed the required nutrient level to keep the plants happy. I even ended up overdosing my GH. At one point it was at 16dGH and the plant was still growing.


Safe-T sorb has a high CEC value (30-40). After a few weeks/months of heavy water column dosing it's going to contain lots of nutrients, in other words become a ferted substrate.


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

Yes the gains are marginal at a certain level but why limit the nutrient levels to induce deficiency and hinder plant growth? 

If you are deficient in one nutrient then the growth will be hampered in some way and in the case where the C02 is not dialed in then issue is harder to troubleshoot. That is the reason why I suggested overdosing for 1 week to rule it out so the OP can simply focus on dialing the C02. If the nutrient levels plus the C02 are good then the new growth or tips should look better at the end of the week or at least some signs of good growth. He can then dial back the nutrient level the next week and see if it has any effect. He can also simply do another 50% water change then keep the overdosed levels for another week and the growth should be fixed. 

Also I don't dose full EI either otherwise my nitrate levels just hit close to 40+ ppm mark. What I do strive for is non-limiting amounts of light, C02 and nutrients just as what Tom Barr would suggest. Over simplification...yes. In all honesty it is that simple. You can play with around with nutrient ratios, nutrient levels and other tank parameters but at the end of the day the plants need certain amount of C02, light and nutrients (again does not matter where it comes from) to grow. Provide less of each then they you run into issues.

Also here is a picture of my tank showing just after planting and almost 1 month of growth. I have not attempted to fully aquascape the tank. No pointing doing it if the plants are not growing properly.


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

If the other faster growing plants are not showing nutrient deficiencies, you can safely rule it out for the much slower growing AR. Improving CO2 is definitely the best suggestion.

Other finer points already covered in past thread:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=728545&highlight=


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Interested to see what happens with this one.. I have more difficulty with AR than almost any other plant


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Alternanthera reineckii loves algae. It invites it on to visit and stay. 

I don't know why no other plant in my tank grows algae except for this one, but whatever the other plants are doing to prevent it, A Reineckii isn't trying very hard.

I ended up taking most of it out, I have far less hassle and better looking red ludwigia. So I picked up some ludwigia ovalis and some tiger lotus instead.

My point? There are other, more hardy red plants out there if this one doesn't work out. Don't stress it man.


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

burr740 said:


> Safe-T sorb has a high CEC value (30-40). After a few weeks/months of heavy water column dosing it's going to contain lots of nutrients, in other words become a ferted substrate.


I wish I can fast forward to that point.

It's only been 6 weeks since I flooded the substrate and dosing did not start until right before I planted my tank which is just 5 weeks ago so basically it does not contain a good amount of nutrients to grow anything properly. I know this because I experienced some micro deficiencies and slight potassium deficiency. 

Again my point is the nutrient source does not matter. What matters is you have a source of nutrients and in non-limiting amounts. It can be nutrients in the substrate or nutrients in the water column. If you are trying to troubleshoot then providing non-limiting amounts of nutrients while dialing the c02 will help rule our nutrients as a factor and thus keep the issue localized to c02 levels. 

Since C02 can be a pain to troubleshoot then having no additional worries on nutrient levels makes troubleshooting a little easier.


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