# Shrimp Family Tree Project (pt. 1 - Caridina cantonensis)



## rah-bop

I don't know about you guys, but I sometimes get very confused when it comes to understanding how shrimp are related to each other. It helps me to see things in a more visual format, so in an effort to make things more clear for myself (and maybe others) I'm trying to draw a family tree. Unfortunately, I'm going to need a lot of help!

My goal is to try and cover as many of the commonly (and sometimes less commonly) kept freshwater shrimp, including both caridina and neocaridina species. Right now I'm starting with the tiny node of the family tree that is caridina cantonensis, because that's the only one I know remotely anything about. 


*NOW FINISHED!:*








*
Larger image*

Old versions/works in progress:
version 1
version 2
version 3
version 4
version 5
version 6

*SUGGESTIONS AND CRITICISMS WELCOME!*


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## sbarbee54

*Shrimp Family Tree Project (part 1 - caridina cantonensis)*

Taiwan bees are mutations from crs/CBS/snow whites

I thin red tigers and super red tigers would be considered the same
Also missing btoe and royal blue tiger

Missing green hulks and blue jellies pinto bees and fancy tigers


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## rah-bop

OEBTs and green hulks are already on there (though maybe not in the right place?)

Where do blue jellies and pinto bees fit into this chart?

Is a fancy tiger a kind of tibee?


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## sbarbee54

*Shrimp Family Tree Project (part 1 - caridina cantonensis)*

I know oebt are but not btoe...... Blue jelly is a Taiwan bee

Pinto is a Taiwan bee breed to a tiger and bred back to it self over and over

Same with a fancy tiger


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## sayurasem

Sweet always been waiting on shrimp family tree.


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## rah-bop

sbarbee54 said:


> I know oebt are but not btoe......


Sorry, then what is a BTOE? These acronyms throw me off.


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## rah-bop

*Update:*









How do crystal whites work? What even is a tibee?


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## ravensgate

rah-bop said:


> Sorry, then what is a BTOE? These acronyms throw me off.



Black Tiger Orange Eye

Tibee is tiger x bee shrimp (taiwan bee, crs, cbs, golden, etc, etc).


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## Clemsons2k

Nice start!

Interested to see where this ends up.


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## Soothing Shrimp

You have my interest.


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## CPD

Awesome idea! I'll be following this.


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## madness

Good start.


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## mordalphus

Super tiger is wild too


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## Asphalt Art

There is an incredible amount of work here to complete. It will be quite a useful reference for everyone when it is complete though.

I was just thinking about where Blue Bolts come from just yesterday


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## sbarbee54

Is a red tiger wild?? Also they are extreme red and extreme black not supreme. Also in the Tibee area but the pinto you could have fancy tiger.

Also in the tiawan bee area you would need Shadow panda


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## rah-bop

Super tigers are wild too? That's awesome, I didn't know that.

Is a shadow panda just a grade of black Taiwan bee or is it a black x blue or something?


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## sbarbee54

BKK cross with BB I would think or a mutation of the BKK


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## drewsuf82

This is pretty awesome!


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## MABJ

*Shrimp Family Tree Project (part 1 - caridina cantonensis)*

I'm not a Cardinia master like some people here. I'll follow along, and I appreciate your work thus far.


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## DUKENDABEARS

Red tiger is wild, found in china I believe


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## mordalphus

sbarbee54 said:


> BKK cross with BB I would think or a mutation of the BKK


Mine all have come from bkk x bkk, no blue bolt


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## chou

this is going to be awesome. can't wait for this tree to be finished.


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## sbarbee54

*Shrimp Family Tree Project (part 1 - caridina cantonensis)*

Ok I thought it was just a mutation so it can be added as just a standard tb


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## rah-bop

Ok all you tiger enthusiasts out there, I need your help.

I have been searching all over the internet and these are the most comprehensive grading charts I've been able to find:



















My questions for you guys:

a) Do these look right to you? Are these the most common names for these breeds? Do any of them go by other names?

b) How does the breeding work with these guys? Do they all fit on a grading spectrum like crystal reds (A ---> SSS) or is it a grid like the Taiwan bees? 

c) Do blues come from BTOEs and the blacks from regular/super tigers, or what? Where do all the shrimp in the above charts come from? 

d) Are any of these created by blending different tigers? For example, the one with red stripes ... is it a BTOE x red tiger mix or do the red stripes just spontaneously appear in BTOE populations?

Help

p.s. Do you think I'd have to do two entries for black diamond (black eyes) and black diamond (orange eyes)? It seems to me like they're both just black diamonds.... in my own CRS population, some have black eyes and some have red, but they're all still just CRS... right? How big a deal is eye color in tiger shrimps?


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## MABJ

*Shrimp Family Tree Project (part 1 - caridina cantonensis)*



rah-bop said:


> Ok all you tiger enthusiasts out there, I need your help.
> 
> I have been searching all over the internet and these are the most comprehensive grading charts I've been able to find:
> 
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> My questions for you guys:
> 
> a) Do these look right to you? Are these the most common names for these breeds? Do any of them go by other names?
> 
> b) How does the breeding work with these guys? Do they all fit on a grading spectrum like crystal reds (A ---> SSS) or is it a grid like the Taiwan bees?
> 
> c) Do blues come from BTOEs and the blacks from regular/super tigers, or what? Where do all the shrimp in the above charts come from?
> 
> d) Are any of these created by blending different tigers? For example, the one with red stripes ... is it a BTOE x red tiger mix or do the red stripes just spontaneously appear in BTOE populations?
> 
> Help
> 
> p.s. Do you think I'd have to do two entries for black diamond (black eyes) and black diamond (orange eyes)? It seems to me like they're both just black diamonds.... in my own CRS population, some have black eyes and some have red, but they're all still just CRS... right? How big a deal is eye color in tiger shrimps?


Well.. 

A. These are superfluous names. OBETs are just OBETs, they don't breed true 100%. It is a commonly known thing that they throw out blonde. 

I don't know about the red stripe one... But royal blue shrimp don't all have orange eyes. They're definitely not OBETs.

B. See above.. The OBETs won't throw royal blue unless there's an odd mutation, and they won't throw red either. I wouldn't list different grades of OBETs. 

You'll have to get someone else for C and D.


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## sbarbee54

Royals come from BTOE, and BTOE come from Black tigers breed for the black strips until they covered the whole body.


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## StraightAddicted

Very neat, honestly you could print some posters when finished and see what happens :smile:


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## rah-bop

*UPDATE*









This suddenly got very dense. Please let me know if any of the text is difficult to read so I can fix it. Also, I am not a graphic designer, so I am grateful for any advice from those of you who are!

I've been doing a lot of research and I think the tiger section is correct now. Maybe.

What is the difference between a pinto and a fancy tiger? I'm having trouble telling them apart. If anyone can post some pictures of very representative examples that would be awesome... It may take me a bit of time to color in all these shrimps so the faster I can get reference materials together the better!

Thanks everyone!


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## mordalphus

Fancy tiger is a mix between crs and tiger, basically a tiger with black and white stripes or red and white stripes. A pinto is a cross between taiwan bee and tiger, f2 and higher. 

Also, a golden bee is not a mix of orange bee and snow white, it's a mutation just like white crystal or taiwan bee. 

And I don't think orange bee is what crs comes from either. I think they are from two separate regions. 

Also, blue bolt and red bolt aren't from snow whites, they're from Goldens crossed to bkk or wr, usually not present until f3


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## rah-bop

Wow, I was way off on the golden and snow white stuff. Thanks for correcting me!

Ok, the wild bee isthis guy, right? Do you know if this or the orange bee are descended from one another or are they totally independent of each other?

I have the red tiger and super tiger marked as being descended from the normal tiger and I don't know if that's correct, either.

Thanks for clearing up all these things. It's a really big help!


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## mordalphus

Wild bee is a misleading name for a group of shrimp including caridina trifascia, caridina breviata and others similarly marked. 

CRS descend from cbs, cbs are what the "wild" version of cbsand crs are. To me, orange bee is what happens in the wild wwhen two separate populations of cantonensis encounter each other. Anyone breeding tibees or mixing tigers and OEBT and others will notice their f1 and some f2 resemble the "orange bee" quite closely. But since the "orange bee" has not been available for a long time, it's impossible to know even if that was a true strain or just a sample of wild shrimp that was captured and sold on the aquarium market. 

Super tiger does not descend from tigers, they are a separate wild population. It is probable that they descended from them originally, but they were not bred that way, it was natural selection that made them super. 

I know nothing about red tigers except that sometimes regular tigers will make them, less than one percent of offspring. I bred 2 in a year by total mistake while breeding and selling normal tigers.


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## rah-bop

Wow, that's pretty confusing. Thanks for clearing that up. Does this look better?










It turns out red tigers occur in the wild as well, so I made it its own "branch".

Thanks again for all the awesome information!


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## mordalphus

Yes, that looks very nice. Good job


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## rah-bop

Hey so ... what genus is a blue bee? I have seen it listed as both caridina and paracaridina. Does anyone have any better information about it?

So far I have colored 38 of the shrimp on my chart. Currently working on the blue bees, and after that the tibees and I'm done!


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## mordalphus

Paracaridina


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## rah-bop

Thanks. Here's the newest version:










I beg you guys to please look at this closely and let me know if there are any errors or legibility issues. Please tell me if any of the pictures do not accurately portray their breed. Also, tibees still really confuse me. Even though I now know the difference in terms of how they are made, I still don't really know the difference in how they _look._

Whenever this is done I'll try and post some higher-res image. Photobucket always kind of makes it a little blurry.


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## Max Kenji

Great works. I really like your illustration style!
I think you might wanna add Hinomaru/Hinomaru-no entry/Mosura/Flower head BKK/WR.


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## h4n

wow very nice!!!!


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## rah-bop

Thanks!



Max Kenji said:


> I think you might wanna add Hinomaru/Hinomaru-no entry/Mosura/Flower head BKK/WR.


I knew about those patterns on CRS/CBS... are they on BKK/WR too? Shrimp are so amazing.

I considered adding the patterns to this chart but I was worried it would be too much. It seems like when you get to bee shrimp you can get as granular as you please, and I didn't want the image size to explode so I tried contain myself. That said, if enough people feel this thing would be improved with a pattern guide I can add one. 

Thanks for the feedback!


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## sbarbee54

*Re: Shrimp Family Tree Project (part 1 - caridina cantonensis)*

Looks awsome

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## CPD

Amazing work man!


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## Asphalt Art

Yes, your illustrations are great. I will be patiently waiting for a high resolution save of this image.

If you do pattern guides, you could "release them" as separate cards to include subtle variations of CRS/CBS lightning bolt and some of the other SSS+. It would really get out of hand if everything was really added honestly, and as you stated image quality might suffer without increasing the canvas size.


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## golfwang

I appreciate your hard work on this shrimp family tree and I like your illustration of the shrimps.


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## Clemsons2k

Wow fantastic job with the colorations!


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## pejerrey

*Shrimp Family Tree Project (part 1 - caridina cantonensis)*

Wow! Awesome job!! I..I


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## KenP

Nice work. Obviously a labor of love. The color pictures adds real value to uninformed like me.


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## speedie408

Great job!


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## Clemsons2k

Are the crystal blacks slightly brown or is it just me?


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## nightshadebel

I love the chart! are you going to add Caridina serrata var. "Tangerine Tiger"?


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## haterr

Great work, colors are spot on


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## rah-bop

Thanks for the kind words, everyone!



Clemsons2k said:


> Are the crystal blacks slightly brown or is it just me?


They are probably slightly brown. 



nightshadebel said:


> I love the chart! are you going to add Caridina serrata var. "Tangerine Tiger"?


I'll probably do a Caridina serrata chart next! I still have at least one more revision to do on this before I can call it done, and then I'll be moving on to other shrimp.


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## rah-bop

*I am tentatively calling this finished!* Feel free to post this anywhere you like, just please don't remove my URL or edit the picture. If something needs changing let me know and I'll change it. 










Thank you for all your help, everyone! Now for the next species!


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## pejerrey

*Shrimp Family Tree Project (part 1 - caridina cantonensis)*

Thank you so much!


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## Clemsons2k

I'm waiting for the Neo one to come out. It'll be much easier than the cantonensis were but still interesting none-the-less.


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## androsk

rah-bop said:


> *I am tentatively calling this finished!* Feel free to post this anywhere you like, just please don't remove my URL or edit the picture. If something needs changing let me know and I'll change it.
> 
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> Thank you for all your help, everyone! Now for the next species!


amazing job, Sir...!!!


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## Duck5003

Awesome job! Sticky??


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## golfwang

*Re: Shrimp Family Tree Project (part 1 - caridina cantonensis)*

Awesome. This would be a cool poster to have maybe you can provide the PDF with high resolution? 

Sent from my HTC Sensation using Tapatalk 2


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## rah-bop

Now that this has had a few days to circulate I've heard from several people that there are still some errors. I will be fixing it up as I hear back from people and in the meantime I'm starting work on more charts for other shrimp species. Ultimately I am thinking of taking all the charts and combining them into one gigantic poster with several hundred shrimp on it. ...do you think anyone might be interested in something like that?


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## MABJ

*Shrimp Family Tree Project (part 1 - caridina cantonensis)*



rah-bop said:


> Now that this has had a few days to circulate I've heard from several people that there are still some errors. I will be fixing it up as I hear back from people and in the meantime I'm starting work on more charts for other shrimp species. Ultimately I am thinking of taking all the charts and combining them into one gigantic poster with several hundred shrimp on it. ...do you think anyone might be interested in something like that?


Yes. It would be quite useful.


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## Clemsons2k

I would buy one for sure.


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## Jahn

Wow, what a great chart! And since these wouldn't crossbreed with my Neocaridina heteropoda var. Sakura Red, it would be too cool to have a Sakura Red army and Royal Blue army in the same tank, haha!


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## rah-bop

Hey everyone! Just a heads-up. In the last week or so that this image has been 'live' it blew up all over the facebooks. I have received a strong positive response overall and several people have emailed me about mistakes, which is good because it means I can try to fix them. To the surprise of nobody it turns out I made a ton of errors on this chart! I will be making revisions as soon as I am able and the new chart will have a gogillion* more shrimp on it.

I just wanted you guys to know! I see some people using it as reference material and that's _awesome_ and _amazing_, but until the new chart is up (and maybe even after that, hur hur) please post it with the knowledge that parts of it are wrong. It looks like the crystals and tigers are mostly okay, if lacking a few shrimp, but the Taiwan bees need to be totally overhauled. 

Thanks everyone!

*maybe ten


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## pejerrey

awesome possum!


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## sbarbee54

*Shrimp Family Tree Project (part 1 - caridina cantonensis)*

So elaborate on the errors or what changes were recommended 


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## pejerrey

*Shrimp Family Tree Project (part 1 - caridina cantonensis)*

Hey! I thought I should share this picture compilation I made some time ago... It has shrimp pics and their common names, families, genus... It occurred to me that it could be helpful for your imaging. Thanks for your work!
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=195462


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## rah-bop

sbarbee54 said:


> So elaborate on the errors or what changes were recommended


Patience, friend.




pejerrey said:


> Hey! I thought I should share this picture compilation I made some time ago... It has shrimp pics and their common names, families, genus... It occurred to me that it could be helpful for your imaging. Thanks for your work!
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=195462


Thanks! I have actually been using this post to help me get started with the neos. It's been really helpful!


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## colombus

hi there

has you news with the board ?


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## rah-bop

Ah! Sorry, I've been really busy with work so the revision is not ready yet. I'll try to post something in the next day or so.


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## @[email protected]

how is this coming along. been a while, and its a really great chart.


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## rah-bop

Thanks for your patience, everyone. I've been working on this thing slowly over the last couple of months. I've been communicating back and forth with a handful of highly knowledgeable shrimp enthusiasts around the world in a nearly endless cycle of making revisions and getting corrected and I'm finally ready to call it good.

One thing I've learned while doing this project is that there are a lot of aspects of this shrimp's genealogy that are poorly understood and there is a ton of conflicting information. I had to make a lot of compromises and judgement calls and I don't think I can make everyone completely happy. That said, I am still very grateful for any kind of feedback or critiques. 

Feel free to post this anywhere you like. All I ask is that you don't edit my URL out.










*(slightly) larger version here*


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## Soothing Shrimp

Outstanding!...just...OUTSTANDING!


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## Steezy B

I'm just now getting into the shrimp hobby, but thank you so much for your effort. I never knew there could be so many color genes which leads to my question... Are there other color morphs/color genes besides these? Colors that haven't been bred yet?


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## TankYouVeryMuch

Very very cool!


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## rah-bop

Steezy B said:


> I'm just now getting into the shrimp hobby, but thank you so much for your effort. I never knew there could be so many color genes which leads to my question... Are there other color morphs/color genes besides these? Colors that haven't been bred yet?


These are the most established ones so far but people are breeding new shrimp every day. The variations and variety of tibees alone are endless! I'm certain that someone will come up with new strains of C. cantonensis but I selfishly hope it doesn't happen for a while because I need a break from editing this chart, hahaha.


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## sbarbee54

great work


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## MABJ

This is awesome! My only questions are: blue jellies and green hulks.. They don't get CRS patterns, per say, do they?


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## shrimpzoo

MABJ said:


> This is awesome! My only questions are: blue jellies and green hulks.. They don't get CRS patterns, per say, do they?


Hmmm, I heard that the Green Hulks were a special case of BKK. Curious to know if Green Hulks would have CRS patterns as well.


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## rah-bop

MABJ said:


> This is awesome! My only questions are: blue jellies and green hulks.. They don't get CRS patterns, per say, do they?


They do indeed!




shrimpzoo said:


> Hmmm, I heard that the Green Hulks were a special case of BKK.


Apparently Hulks and Jellies are what you get if you have a BKK with weak pigmentation.


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## sbarbee54

Yes green hulks and Blue Jellies do show CRS patterns. They are not stable yet and the ones that do make it to the states are more or less BKK. I learned the hard way


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## MABJ

Yeah. I didn't think they threw too many SSS pattern ones. Thanks man.


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## Soothing Shrimp

rah-bop said:


> Apparently Hulks and Jellies are what you get if you have a BKK with weak pigmentation.


+1 Kind of the difference between fire red neos and pfr


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## somewhatshocked

Unfortunately, this thread is CLOSED because a handful of people cannot abide by our very simple guidelines regarding sales activity.

If you can't stop discussing sales outside the For Sale section, you can't continue to utilize this thread.


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