# Seachem Flourish with EI dosing



## boringname (Nov 11, 2010)

Do you mean Flourish or Flourish Excel?


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

boringname said:


> Do you mean Flourish or Flourish Excel?


did you look at the link? which i have posted in the post, its just a Flourish, not Excel. 

thanks


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

Flourish is basically micros. Using it in addition to standard EI dosing would basically just be doubling up on CSM+B. N,P,K isn't really covered by it in more than trace amounts.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi happi,

I use Seachem Flourish in conjunction with EI dosing (including CSM+B) with very good results. When I was only using CSM+B as my micronutrient I was regularly encountering deficiency problems.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

kevmo911 said:


> Flourish is basically micros. Using it in addition to standard EI dosing would basically just be doubling up on CSM+B. N,P,K isn't really covered by it in more than trace amounts.



i know that but this will be used for testing reason, i dose all the nutrients and most plant still dont grow, i think Mg or Ca might be missing somewhere in my EI dosing, because i dose NPK, csm+b with extra iron and there is no change to the plants, i will dose NPK, csm+b (let me know if i should add this) and flourish to see what will the results be.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi happi,
> 
> I use Seachem Flourish in conjunction with EI dosing (including CSM+B) with very good results. When I was only using CSM+B as my micronutrient I was regularly encountering deficiency problems.



nice, thanks for the info, i also find that csm+b isnt either mixing well in the water or something else is causing it to not work properly, my water is hard maybe that might be causing some problems. how much do you add to your tank, could you please give full detail on your tank and ferts specs.


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## Loop (Jan 8, 2011)

I'm not that knowledgeable with ferts, but couldn't you just increase your EI dosing amounts some? Wouldn't that give you the same results as adding Flourish?


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## Dempsey (Oct 27, 2009)

Loop said:


> I'm not that knowledgeable with ferts, but couldn't you just increase your EI dosing amounts some? Wouldn't that give you the same results as adding Flourish?


 
I would have to agree. If it is just a Micro issue, add some more CSM, not water...

Macro's? Add a little more. 

In my high light tanks, I had a tad more. Much cheaper then buying water. Try to find your "sweet spot". 

Adding a premixed product won't make it any easier for you..

Just my 2 cents.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi happi,

The tank in the picture is a 30 gallon (36" long) with 2X36 watt AH Supply DIY fixture and 6700K bulbs. Pressurized CO2 @ 30 ppm tested with drop checker and 4.0 dGH indicator solution. Photoperiod is split 3 hours on; 8 hours off; 3 hours on. Temperature is 77 degrees F. Water here in Seattle is soft (< 1.0 dGH) so I do add Seachem Equilibrium to bring up the hardness to 2.0 dGH. The substrate is Soilmaster Select Charcoal. I run a Marineland C-220 and undergravel filters for filtration.

I basically dose EI with extra Iron, Seachem Flourish Comprehensive, and Seachem Excel (glutaraldehyde) to supplement my CO2 and act as an algacide. I mix my CSM+B with water and dose as a liquid. I use 3 tablespoons of CSM+B in 500 ml of water for my mix. In addition to what is shown in the chart below, I dose 3 ml of Flourish and 4 ml of Iron on the day I dose the "micros".


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

Dempsey said:


> I would have to agree. If it is just a Micro issue, add some more CSM, not water...
> 
> Macro's? Add a little more.
> 
> ...



tried it and nothing happened, it might be Mg or Ca, they both play big role in plant growth, my tap water read 0ppm Mg and 185ppm of Ca, i always added Mg to my tank and there is no difference in growth of plants.

if flourish fixes this problem, then it does not mean EI failed, it just mean am not adding something somewhere, maybe too much or too little or not at all.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi happi,
> 
> The tank in the picture is a 30 gallon (36" long) with 2X36 watt AH Supply DIY fixture and 6700K bulbs. Pressurized CO2 @ 30 ppm tested with drop checker and 4.0 dGH indicator solution. Photoperiod is split 3 hours on; 8 hours off; 3 hours on. Temperature is 77 degrees F. Water here in Seattle is soft (< 1.0 dGH) so I do add Seachem Equilibrium to bring up the hardness to 2.0 dGH. The substrate is Soilmaster Select Charcoal. I run a Marineland C-220 and undergravel filters for filtration.
> 
> I basically dose EI with extra Iron, Seachem Flourish Comprehensive, and Seachem Excel (glutaraldehyde) to supplement my CO2 and act as an algacide. I mix my CSM+B with water and dose as a liquid. I use 3 tablespoons of CSM+B in 500 ml of water for my mix. In addition to what is shown in the chart below, I dose 3 ml of Flourish and 4 ml of Iron on the day I dose the "micros".



thanks for the info, can you link the calculator as well, how do you make your iron solution? i always made it before while mixing it with csm+b but am not sure if it was enough, i might need to increase it little bit.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi happi,

Sure, here is the link to the calculator. I believe I originally got it off of The Barr Report.

I use Iron Chelate 10% (EDTA) which I mix up per the instructions on Rex Grigg's site. 

Chelated Iron
* Mix 35 grams of powder with 2 cups (473 ml of water).
* 1 ml of this solution will raise the iron level in 10 gallons of water by 0.2 ppm.
* Suggested range for iron is 0.1-0.5 ppm.

I hope this information helps!


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Ca deficiency is pretty unlikely with tapwater, especially hard water.

Mg deficiency is still possible. Like you, I add it just in case. There's no harm in doing so.

Fe deficiency is possible, especially with hard water which has a higher pH, because the EDTA chelated iron in CSM+B precipitates out more quickly. Flourish may show a benefit if this is the case, as it uses a different form of iron. You may also be able to "brute-force" the issue by adding more CSM+B or Fe EDTA. I've had to add up to 3x the expected amount in non-CO2 tanks with pH near 8.0. Although you should be seeing specific signs of iron deficiency, like yellowing, if this is the case; not just lack of growth.

It's also possible your water is just too hard for the plants you're trying to grow. In that case, your best solution is to use some RO water.


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## Hannothan (Dec 26, 2010)

happi said:


> tried it and nothing happened, it might be Mg or Ca, they both play big role in plant growth, my tap water read 0ppm Mg and 185ppm of Ca, i always added Mg to my tank and there is no difference in growth of plants.
> 
> if flourish fixes this problem, then it does not mean EI failed, it just mean am not adding something somewhere, maybe too much or too little or not at all.


How much magnesium do you add? I do know having too much magnesium will result in calcium deficiencies.

CSM+B has magnesium in it according to the guaranteed analysis. Do you have the levels in your tank?

As to Flourish, I have a stockpile of the stuff and I use it regularly. No complaints. In high light, I do a double dose 3x per week. Instead of 5ml for my 55 gallon, I go 10. I also use root tabs that contain almost the same thing.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Hannothan said:


> How much magnesium do you add? I do know having too much magnesium will result in calcium deficiencies.


How might you *know* this?
This is a myth and pure baloney.

Here's a tank with high Mg, around 30ppm:









Hyper sensitive species.
Myth of too much(with a real ppm included! Hey!) Mg inhibiting plant growth, falsified.

Maybe 50-100ppm?
I do not know.
I do know that 10-30ppm does no harm however.
Too little Mg does as well.



> CSM+B has magnesium in it according to the guaranteed analysis. Do you have the levels in your tank?
> 
> As to Flourish, I have a stockpile of the stuff and I use it regularly. No complaints. In high light, I do a double dose 3x per week. Instead of 5ml for my 55 gallon, I go 10. I also use root tabs that contain almost the same thing.


Just toss about for each 2 teaspoons of CMS, add another 1/2 tsp of MgSO4.
You do not need a high amount, but 1ppm or so per dose is plenty.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> How might you *know* this?
> This is a myth and pure baloney.
> 
> Here's a tank with high Mg, around 30ppm:
> ...


tom, you are suggesting adding 1/2 a tea spoon 3x a week on 50g tank? same for csm+b 2 tsp? right?

right out of the tap Mg is 0 and Ca is 180+ppm


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

DarkCobra said:


> Ca deficiency is pretty unlikely with tapwater, especially hard water.
> 
> Mg deficiency is still possible. Like you, I add it just in case. There's no harm in doing so.
> 
> ...


darkcobra,

thanks for the suggestion, i will try that, yes i have plenty Ca 180ppm in my water but there is 0ppm of Mg which is why i add it during water change. i am adding 1 table spoon of magnesium 1x week, am not sure if this will be enough for the plants, it adds about 8ppm of Mg. 


it cant be the water, because even the easiest plant does not survive, in this pic its the same hard water but seachem dosing:


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Hmm, well that tank looks darn good. 

I can accept the possibility of Flourish being slightly better, but the difference you're describing is too dramatic.

If I recall correctly, you purchased some of your EI ferts off Ebay not long ago. Are you using them now in the problem tank? Could it be that one of those isn't what it claims to be?


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

IME, flourish comprehensive is excellent, so long a you aren't running more than medium light and you don't have many nutrient hungry plants. I would also recommend dosing potassium 2-3x per week, unless you have low light/no co2.

Whenever I try dissolving dry ferts in water, I put it into a 1.5 quart tupperware container with a screw on lid, fill it about halfway full with water, add the ferts, and shake like hell for a couple of minutes.

If you aren't sold on using the EI concentrations, research PPS Pro and PMDD. There is a revised version of PMDD that includes phosphates and regular dosing of Mg with epsom salts. Here is a great link, scroll down for the revised version:

http://www.jsctech.co.uk/theplantedtank/PMDD.htm


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

DarkCobra said:


> Hmm, well that tank looks darn good.
> 
> I can accept the possibility of Flourish being slightly better, but the difference you're describing is too dramatic.
> 
> If I recall correctly, you purchased some of your EI ferts off Ebay not long ago. Are you using them now in the problem tank? Could it be that one of those isn't what it claims to be?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAR7FnvIdBE
this tank was setup with seachem black sand and EI dosing, i was usging the same KNO3 from ebay and plants did well, am guessing it might be CSM and iron issue, because i see some plant melt down and have yellow leaf.

am i dosing the correct amount of Mg though?


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

happi said:


> am i dosing the correct amount of Mg though?


I actually dose a lot more magnesium than Tom suggests. For each tsp. of CSM+B, I add 5 tsp. of epsom salts.

That seems like a lot, but it only gives me 1ppm extra Mg for every 0.1ppm Fe I add, which is still pretty conservative.

As a side note, the measurement is so large because epsom salts are actually MgSO4.7H2O. That's a solid containing mostly water, and containing surprisingly little Mg. If you were to heat it, it temporarily drives off the 7H2O, leaving you with a greatly reduced amount of actual MgSO4.

And that's just what I add as an "insurance" supplement to whatever is already in my tapwater. My water quality report doesn't cover that, but I'm assuming I'm starting with some, rather than 0ppm.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

DarkCobra said:


> I actually dose a lot more magnesium than Tom suggests. For each tsp. of CSM+B, I add 5 tsp. of epsom salts.
> 
> That seems like a lot, but it only gives me 1ppm extra Mg for every 0.1ppm Fe I add, which is still pretty conservative.
> 
> ...


in that case should i triple the dose of MgSO4, instead of 1 tablespoon which gives me about 8ppm of mg, should i add 3 tablespoon once a week during water change?


another question, since my Ca reads 180ppm, isn't that more than enough for plants, fishes, shrimps to use it?


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

Guaranteed Analysis:
Total Nitrogen 0.07% 
Available Phosphate (P2O5) 0.01%
Soluble Potash 0.37% 
Calcium (Ca) 0.14%
Magnesium (Mg) 0.11% 
Sulfur (S) 0.2773%
Boron (B) 0.009% 
Chlorine (Cl) 1.15%
Cobalt (Co) 0.0004% 
Copper (Cu) 0.0001%
Iron (Fe) 0.32% 
Manganese (Mn) 0.0118%
Molybdenum (Mo) 0.0009% 
Sodium (Na) 0.13%
Zinc (Zn) 0.0007%

how do i convert these numbers to ppm, i just need to know about the Ca and Mg, can anyone help me on this, Calcium (Ca) 0.14% Magnesium (Mg) 0.11%


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

I'd try 2 tbsp. of Mg weekly to start.

180ppm of Ca is more than enough. You will never run out of that, since it's replenished by weekly water changes.

The easiest way to convert is using a calculator like the Fertilator or others like it. It does calculate ppm increase in a tank for a given amount of CSM+B, for both Ca and Mg. You'll see the amount of either in CSM+B is trivial. I usually don't even bother to factor it in.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

DarkCobra said:


> I'd try 2 tbsp. of Mg weekly to start.
> 
> 180ppm of Ca is more than enough. You will never run out of that, since it's replenished by weekly water changes.
> 
> The easiest way to convert is using a calculator like the Fertilator or others like it. It does calculate ppm increase in a tank for a given amount of CSM+B, for both Ca and Mg. You'll see the amount of either in CSM+B is trivial. I usually don't even bother to factor it in.


thanks darkcobra,

i will try that and see what happen and plus i will be dosing flourish by next week.

is this plant soft water plant? because this is the only plant that seems to be doing well compare to any other plant in my tank. i feed it clay mixed root tabs (not root medic type or osmocote)


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