# The long struggle, need advice - Toxicity or deficiency?



## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

After some long thinking and reading up on toxicity it does make some sense in my case. Seeing that I have fairly soft water, and as far as I understand the softer water the less micro's it takes for toxicity.
And since I have been dosing EI amounts for so long I doubt it could be deficiency. I'll just do a "micro detox" and see where it goes.

Also, the twisted leaves, both GSA and BBA on plants seem to be a common "trait" with toxicity.

I know there is a lot of controversy between EI and Micro toxicities, but it's pretty much the only thing I have not addressed/tried to change. The ferts regime that is.

I'll try to keep this update on any changes. Comments would still be very welcome.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

When I read through your post, I was expecting to see a tank that is a total mess. 

After seeing the pictures, it seems to me you have more right going on than wrong. That's why I would change things slowly and only change one parameter at a time.

And as you may know, trace toxicity has been a heated subject for debate on this board at times. The strange thing it does not seem to be consistent from tank to tank. Some people dose loads of micros (T. Barr) and everything is just fine. Others get negative effects (Burr740) and dose very, very little.

Keep us posted as to your findings. Should be interesting.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

Thanks for the feedback. We'll this is just the "beginning stage" of the deterioration and it's not the best pictures showing the flaws, but trying to stop it before it gets out of hand. If its the same as my numerous attempts it will go down hill from here in a hurry.

Yeah, that's what doesn't make sense with the Micros. But I think read somewhere Tom has pretty hard water, which might explain it in that case. Possibly mixing it up with someone else. But who knows, worth a try I think.

Edit: I also been very diligent the last week, removing not so fresh looking leaves and removing substrate with BBA almost everyday. Might explain why it doesn't look as bad. Had I not done this, from experience the BBA on the substrate would have a formed a nice little matt in 1-2 weeks where there is no plants covering it. Also most of the lower leaves of the S.repens is trimmed away, they get infested with GSA then when it starts dying/deteriorating BBA takes over them. But now the GSA is starting to attack pretty new leaves on the AR mini and L. glandulosa, this is what is worrying me now. If it continues at this rate, I have to chuck most of the plant mass to get rid of it in not too long.

And it happens so fast, every time. It's like a light switch. From practically nothing and every thing going picture perfect, to be growing on most of the hardscape and older plant leaves in 2 days.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

Probably to early to tell really, but for the first time the Buce. is throwing out new leaves that doesn't melt at the stem, and a lot faster than before. Every since I got it, it has been growing new roots and leaves, but the new ones barley reach "maturity" before the stem melts and leaf floats away. 

Unfortunately I already see more GSA and holes on the H.pinnatifida and the H.Compact is starting to get holes on the older leaves.

Getting some more plants soon, so then I can trim a lot of the affected plant mass, and increase the plant mass over all. Hopefully that will help some. Plants are still growing very fast, just not as healthy as they could/should be. So thinking maybe more will help compete with the algae.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

Just curious. Do you reuse your substrate (or filtration material) between tear downs?


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

Zorfox said:


> Just curious. Do you reuse your substrate (or filtration material) between tear downs?



Yupp, I do. That's why I was a bit concerned about the substrate being toxic if it has adsorbed a lot over the 2-3 years I used it.

Since I read that aquasoil last more or less indefinitely, and same for the media I haven't changed it, since both are rather expensive here in Norway. 3 Bags of aquasoil will run me around 200$ and media around 150$.
Everything in this damn country that is slightly "niche" is so overpriced. Take musical instruments as an example, I can buy a brand new guitar on eBay and pay almost the same amount in shipping as the guitar, and pay 25% taxes on that when it arrives (on the shipping too, I know it's ridiculous but it's just the way it is here). Still about half the price of the local shops here 

Anywho, got a little off track there. Do you think I should change it, and start totally fresh? Or is there maybe a way to clean/flush the substrate?

I really do want to continue to use ADA aquasoil though, as I have a custom ordered OptiWhite tank and the fact that ADA doesn't scratch glass is really appealing to me. But if you think a completely fresh restart would help, I might as well try. At this rate I'm loosing a lot of money on new plants all the time anyways. But I'd have to go with something else for the moment probably inert. But at this point I guess the Aquasoil is pretty much inert High CEC substrate after so many years. 

Edit: Now that I think of it, I actually have some high CEC inert substrate lying around. I bought it before the ADA, but never used it. It's called Easy Care Substrate - ECS. Very little info when googling, but it's seems to be pretty much the same as Eco Complete. 

Here is a link, but it's in Norwegian though, only one I could find. Google translate of the product, it's rough but you get the idea:

"EasyCare Substrate (ECS) Consists of burning natural clay that has very high porosity. This provides high colonization of bacteria and increases the degradation of waste products. It makes the water clean and clear while there reduces algae growth in the aquarium.

ECS's two grain sizes 0.1 to 1.3 mm (this is the one I have) and 1-4 mm for a large through-flow in the bottom layer. Along with the natural minerals and trace elements bottom layer contains, provide the optimum conditions for aquatic vegetation.

ECS makes the substrate to a natural filter while the reddish-brown color gives a natural look and creates a good contrast to green plants."


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Malakian said:


> Every time I start fresh, everything is growing fast and healthy for about a month, then I start getting pinholes, twisted leaves and sudden bloom of GSA and BBA.


The 3 month time is the time problems can arise. For the parameters of the water change as things settle. Here is some interesting read by Kekon, "Lowering NO3 always helped to eliminate problems with stunted tips but at lower NO3 (5 ppm) some fast growing species may suffer from N deficiency. Thus introduced Co-NH2-2 (urea or carbamide) and NH4NO3 (Ammonium Nitrate) with NO3."

Bump:


Greggz said:


> Some people dose loads of micros (T. Barr) and everything is just fine. Others get negative effects (Burr740) and dose very, very little.
> 
> Keep us posted as to your findings. Should be interesting.


If you have city chemical treated water, which may contain algae spores, you have to work harder on maintaining a balance. When dealing with nature nothing is written in stone.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Malakian said:


> I have some high CEC inert substrate called Easy Care Substrate - ECS. It seems to be pretty much the same as Eco Complete.


I think instead of ECS you could use Laterite. I have found Laterite in Pet Smart. It is not listed on their website though. Oops!! That is if you lived in the states. I see now you are in Norway


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

Hilde said:


> I use Red Bag kitty litter on the bottom under dirt for it has high CEC.


Under dirt? As in under potting soil or under Aquasoil, or did you just mean Kitty litter over dirt? I'm a little confused 

I read through the post you refered to, interesting about the NO3. I always had pretty high levels 30ppm+. But then again, the same argument comes in to play, why does several EI tanks like Tom's lard on with ferts and don't show the same signs.

And yes, I do use chemically treated city water, but we are so lucky to have some of the cleanest water in the world, or at least so they boast about in Langvatn Water works.

I even tested it with a high quality TDS at the lab at work, and straight from the tap is 23 TDS/ppm, not to far from RO water.
And their spec. sheets on their site is very consistent with what I can test, TDS, PH, Iron NO3 NH4. It also has no form of bacteria detected and little to no metals/minerals, the GH from the tap is pretty much just from Ca. So I add 10gr of MgSo4 and 5 gr K2SO4 at each WC.

Edit: I see you changed your post, yeah we do have Laterite (in form of kitty litter) pretty cheap, but it's also almost white. A very light grey color, so not too attractive though. Also found a brown/reddish clay type kitty litter that I use for my parrot, but it is dusty as all hell. Would be hard to rinse it properly and seem to be easily broken into dust. The white stuff, which I'm pretty sure is laterite is more like small pieces of slate rock with a porous structure in appearance and very little dust. But yeah, not to stoked on almost white substrate


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

I would definitely try a fresh substrate. 

All those "micros" are still present in the substrate and filter material.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Malakian said:


> Under dirt? As in under potting soil or under Aquasoil, or did you just mean Kitty litter over dirt? I'm a little confused


Since I hope to move this year I have my plants in plastic containers in the tank. In them is 1st Kitty litter, 2nd Worm castings dirt, 3rd River sand or Black diamond blasting sand for topping.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

Zorfox said:


> I would definitely try a fresh substrate.
> 
> All those "micros" are still present in the substrate and filter material.


We'll then, I guess ill try the Eco Complete stuff, just have to be really careful when cleaning the glass until I can afford some new Aquasoil. I'm not the most active person on here, but I lurk around a lot. And you are one of the people on this forum I see as very knowledgeable and always seem to give good advice and know your way around stuff. You and about 4-5 other people on forums I trust more or less blindly 

Good opportunity to redo when the other plants come in. Poor fishy's though, just had a major tear down/stress moment. You really think the media is necessary too? Really hate to chuck 8-9l of eheim substrate pro. Holds a good bunch that FX6. I'm guessing the sponges are fine to reuse at least. Since it is pretty much 100% inert and just mechanical.

Bump:


Hilde said:


> Since I hope to move this year I have my plants in plastic containers in the tank. In them is 1st Kitty litter, 2nd Worm castings dirt, 3rd River sand or Black diamond blasting sand for topping.


Ah, that makes sense. So it's more of a Walstad/dirted tank kind of approach. Not what I am really looking for though. I replant and move stuff around quite often, and disturbing the dirt would cloud the water a lot and possible spike in nutrients/ammonia. No?


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

Malakian said:


> We'll then, I guess ill try the Eco Complete stuff then, just have to be really careful when cleaning the glass until I can afford some new Aquasoil. I'm not the most active person on here, but I lurk around a lot. And you are one of the people on this forum I see as very knowledgeable and always seem to give good advice and know your way around stuff.


Thank you. I appreciate that. 

I will say that there is more to this than meets the eye. I have some suspicions about what is actually going on with this outbreak of "old tank syndrome" or micro toxicity. Until I do a little more research I'd rather not say. Suffice it to say that "the old tank stuff" is in the substrate and will not wash away with a good rinse.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

Zorfox said:


> Thank you. I appreciate that.
> 
> I will say that there is more to this than meets the eye. I have some suspicions about what is actually going on with this outbreak of "old tank syndrome" or micro toxicity. Until I do a little more research I'd rather not say. Suffice it to say that "the old tank stuff" is in the substrate and will not wash away with a good rinse.


Very true. And I've never seen or read about other people having BBA growing directly on the aquasoil, some something might be iffy there. Should of thought of that before. But non the less, I don't really have the money to fork out for the media this month. I'll try the substrate first, if it's still not much improvement I'll have to change that next.

Or maybe I could just fill it with those BBQ lava rocks? Seems like a decent filter media and usable size, and best of all. Dirt cheap. Maybe not the most efficient bio-media, but as I said the FX6 holds A LOT of media, and its just a 55g tank with 50 cardinals, about 5 platies and some corys and shrimp. I just wanted the FX6 more or less for the flow, and ease of water changes. Maybe just change 50% of the media for the lava rocks, that way I at least eliminate 50% of the old stuff from the filter, and I have to have some left for recolonization/cycling anyway.

Edit: Also, on the ferts part. I was planning on continue EI for all other elements, other than micros. Thinking about not using micros to start, then start with 1/2 or 1/3rd of EI values of micros at the first sign of deficiency, sound reasonable? Also, would any of the Macros bind to toxic levels in High CEC substrate, as in do I have to watch out for overdosing with PO4 and NO3 as well?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Malakian said:


> Ah, that makes sense. So it's more of a Walstad/dirted tank kind of approach. Not what I am really looking for though. I replant and move stuff around quite often, and disturbing the dirt would cloud the water a lot and possible spike in nutrients/ammonia. No?


Yes it is my form of Walstad method. I try to do things as cheap as possible. In the past I did not use Earthworm castings. I probably will mix it with dirt when I discard the containers. The cloudiness from moving plants clears up in a few hours. Bottom feeder don't survive in my tank though. I thought it was because I don't change the water more than 1x a month.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

Hilde said:


> Yes it is my form of Walstad method. I try to do things as cheap as possible. In the past I did not use Earthworm castings. I probably will mix it with dirt when I discard the containers. The cloudiness from moving plants clears up in a few hours. Bottom feeder don't survive in my tank though. I thought it was because I don't change the water more than 1x a month.


WC once a month should not be a issue. I had a tank with just sand before, or very fine gravel (1.2-1.8mm grains), and bottom feeders (corys, BNP) did fine for me. Even had the BNP spawn 3 times. This was before I started the whole high tech tank stuff, and I sometimes didn't even change the water before 2-3 months. I did have the FX6 then too, so that might of helped. I'm not sure. Maybe it's ammonia seeping through? I read somewhere bottom feeders can loose their barbels when there is high ammonia, and then they wouldn't be very good at finding food. I'm no fish expert though and this is just from memory, and most on the info I learned in Norway from people and forums is still in the '90s rut mentality. Sure it works for some, but I think we come a long way since then. At least internationally.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Malakian said:


> WC once a month should not be a issue.


Yeh it is probably from the ammonia stirred up when I moved plants.

Bump:


Malakian said:


> I did have the FX6 then too, so that might of helped.


Wow that is listed for $339 on Amazon. Not in my budget.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

Hilde said:


> Yeh it is probably from the ammonia stirred up when I moved plants.
> 
> Bump:
> Wow that is listed for $339 on Amazon. Not in my budget.


Yes it's an expensive filter, but its rated for up to 400g tanks, and with that in mind it's actually pretty cheap compared to some other option when it comes to those sizes.
And I'm super happy with it, and will probably be the last filter I ever buy unless it breaks down (god forbid). Get a extra hose connector and hose, and you can drain the tank in no time, and just connect a hose from the tap and to the little inlet/outlet on the bottom of the FX6 for filling.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Hilde said:


> Yeh it is probably from the ammonia stirred up when I moved plants.
> 
> Bump:
> 
> Wow that is listed for $339 on Amazon. Not in my budget.




The FX4 which is in the very low 200's is what I have and works very good. Would be more than enough filtration. Pretty much exactly same as FX6 but one less tray for media. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Malakian said:


> Yes it's an expensive filter, but its rated for up to 400g tanks, and with that in mind it's actually pretty cheap compared to some other option when it comes to those sizes.
> And I'm super happy with it, and will probably be the last filter I ever buy unless it breaks down (god forbid). Get a extra hose connector and hose, and you can drain the tank in no time, and just connect a hose from the tap and to the little inlet/outlet on the bottom of the FX6 for filling.




Yup exactly what I did with my FX4. Got a hose connection which quick connects to my bathroom to drain in no time and fill. Love it. Same with you probably the last filter I will ever need. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

So I did a little research, and it seems Lava rocks works decent as bio media, but Hydroton (Leca, expanded clay balls) works even better. And I just so happen to have a 50l bag of crushed LECA (3-5mm) pieces intended to be used on ice and snow in the winter for traction. Benefit of it being crushed is that it will mostly sink (the full balls mostly float), and of course higher surface area.

So ill change the Eheim bio media too, for the hydroton and some BBQ lava rocks I still have lying around. Maybe not the best, but its seems to work very well for pond people. And it could possibly be discussed if you even need bio-media in a heavily planted tank, so im pretty confident it should work fine. Only downside it need quite a rinse, tends to be pretty dusty.

So then I can get a complete restart as per Zorfox recommendation, without having to buy anything new as of now. yey 

Ill have to keep and eye on NO2 and NH4 though to be sure.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

I also found out Tropica Soil is a lot easier to come by here, and it's about 30% cheaper since it's in a lot of the local shops, so don't have to pay shipping. And from what I can read about it, it's pretty much the same thing. ADA probably has a more stable "formula" in terms of turning to mush. As they have been doing it for a while compared, and I believe the Amazonia now is the 3rd version of it. But I have yet to read anything about the Tropica soil turning to mush either. And I have always been happy with their plants and products.

Fluval Stratum is another alternative readily available at about the same price point as the Tropica soil, but I've read quite a few say it turns to mush rather fast.

But ill use the ECS first, then when I got a little money to spend again I will probably switch to Tropica soil. Gotta get that non-scratch substrate


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## max88 (Jun 22, 2013)

Before throwing away the alleged "toxic" Amazonia, consider how it has become "toxic." It probably isn't toxic as we have come to think.

You've had them for 2 years in the tank with full EI dosing. We may think Amazonia has sucked up all the toxins, but in reality that's not the case. The substrate has a buffering capacity, once it's filled or has reached equilibrium, it's not going to suck up more toxins. Equilibrium can be reached in a weeks, months, or years but I don't know. When you stop dosing, the stored/buffered toxins are released as new equilibrium is established, but that is not going to turn your tank water into toxic soup over night or over a few days. At most, the toxin level is as high as after dosing.

High level toxins will either stay in water as solution that gets dumped during water change, or precipitate into solid and fall into substrate. The former isn't the issue, the latter may be. The next question is, will the precipitated toxins affect the live stock or plants while in solid form sitting in the substrate? Fish may suck up the solid toxins and their health may be affected; plants may not be affected at all. Another question is, will the precipitated toxins become soluble when other chemicals are added to the tank, and turn tank water into toxic soup over night or over a few days? Unlikely. Anything bad would have happened on the 2 years you have been dumping stuff in the tank.

Your Amazonia isn't as toxic after all. Just change 50% water daily (and vacuum substrate), and stop dosing, for a week, the substrate will be non-toxic as new after all the buffered toxins are released.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

max88 said:


> Before throwing away the alleged "toxic" Amazonia, consider how it has become "toxic." It probably isn't toxic as we have come to think.
> 
> You've had them for 2 years in the tank with full EI dosing. We may think Amazonia has sucked up all the toxins, but in reality that's not the case. The substrate has a buffering capacity, once it's filled or has reached equilibrium, it's not going to suck up more toxins. Equilibrium can be reached in a weeks, months, or years but I don't know. When you stop dosing, the stored/buffered toxins are released as new equilibrium is established, but that is not going to turn your tank water into toxic soup over night or over a few days. At most, the toxin level is as high as after dosing.
> 
> ...


I just bought 3x 9L bags of Tropica soil, was on my way to buy some groceries and it was actually on sale, 3x for 99$ couldn't resist. Added bonus with the Tropica is that it doesn't give the initial ammonia spike Amazonia does. So I think I'm still gonna change it, just in case. And dump some of the Amazonia into my shrimp tank instead. And who knows, maybe the plants will improve because of the "fresh" substrate nutrients.

Also, how can you be so sure? I'm just wondering, because it's seems like you work with this kind of stuff or something similar. 

The BBA growing, and actually preferring to grow directly on the Amazonia leads me to believe there has to be something iffy with it. As I said earlier, never read or seen anyone else have that.
But who knows, it's still weird I get this "old tank syndrome" micro toxicity, whatever It might be after so many restarts, at almost the exact same timeline, and trying to address all the common issues thoroughly. Might just be worth the fresh start as Zorfox recommended. If it's still doesn't change after fresh substrate, filter media and leaner dosing on micros. I know for sure its Flow/co2. Guess the the next step would be to try a new CO2 regulator, maybe its not "dosing" consistently. It is German made though, and that usually pretty good quality stuff.


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## max88 (Jun 22, 2013)

Malakian said:


> Also, how can you be so sure? I'm just wondering, because it's seems like you work with this kind of stuff or something similar.


In fact I am not sure. My previous post was my speculation with my limited knowledge (if any) based on my observation of your posts and others'. It's possible that solid toxins in the substrate are somewhat soluble. When nutrients are added to the tank, solid toxins build up. When plants up take nutrients, and dosing is stopped, toxins level in water lowers; yet solid toxins solute into water, keeping equilibrium at toxic level. There is probably enough solid toxins in substrate to last a long time, more than daily vacuum and water change can remove in a week.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

max88 said:


> In fact I am not sure. My previous post was my speculation with my limited knowledge (if any) based on my observation of your posts and others'. It's possible that solid toxins in the substrate are somewhat soluble. When nutrients are added to the tank, solid toxins build up. When plants up take nutrients, and dosing is stopped, toxins level in water lowers; yet solid toxins solute into water, keeping equilibrium at toxic level. There is probably enough solid toxins in substrate to last a long time, more than daily vacuum and water change can remove in a week.


Hmm, but it does make a lot of sense, what you said before, but so does what you are saying now . It's just I don't know what more to try, worth a shot.


Update: Also I was planning to do it today, every thing is ready to go in the tank. But of course I got a stomach virus, worst possible timing. Regarding the tank itself, the GSA and BBA is still spreading though slower, the H.Pinitifada and H.Compact has gotten more "necrotic" spots. Started with what looked like pinholes, but they have become rather large and have yellow/brown dead tissue around the holes.

Planning to do a major trim of the worst affected plants/leaves and do a H2O2 dip on the reminder before restarting with fresh soil and filter media. And ill add the initial dose of Excel (5ml pr 40l) after re-filling. So for the plants, it will be like the 1-2 punch method. Don't want to do it on the whole tank as I have shrimp, and read they are quite sensitive to it.

Hopefully the plants will not deteriorate to much the next couple of day, until I get my strength back.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Malakian said:


> I always just contributed it to the "CO2 issue. Not enough, poor circulation etc". But I have now tried so many different configurations of extra pumps for flow, adding more Co2 to the point of almost gassing inhabitants. Different methods of diffusion. You name it.
> 
> 
> *Water chemistry:*
> ...





Malakian said:


> I know for sure its Flow/co2. Guess the the next step would be to try a new CO2 regulator, maybe its not "dosing" consistently. It is German made though, and that usually pretty good quality stuff.


Hi! 

This may be out of left field, and I won't discount whether it may or may not be a toxicity issue.. that's beyond me. However, I was wondering why you went from a reactor to a diffuser. I figure reactors usually help with better co2 mixing and spreading. It sounds like you got your 1 point ph drop based on what you quoted, but do you always get your water in the same spot or do you test in various parts of the tank to ensure that the co2 is spread nicely throughout? BBA is a bane. I feel your pain. It's a shame the 24/7 finnex doesn't have an adjustable schedule in 24/7 mode. That way, you could lessen that noontime exposure to cut down a bit of light. I believe it to be pretty strong at that point. Maybe forgo 24/7 mode for a little while? Good luck!


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

ipkiss said:


> Hi!
> 
> This may be out of left field, and I won't discount whether it may or may not be a toxicity issue.. that's beyond me. However, I was wondering why you went from a reactor to a diffuser. I figure reactors usually help with better co2 mixing and spreading. It sounds like you got your 1 point ph drop based on what you quoted, but do you always get your water in the same spot or do you test in various parts of the tank to ensure that the co2 is spread nicely throughout? BBA is a bane. I feel your pain. It's a shame the 24/7 finnex doesn't have an adjustable schedule in 24/7 mode. That way, you could lessen that noontime exposure to cut down a bit of light. I believe it to be pretty strong at that point. Maybe forgo 24/7 mode for a little while? Good luck!


I had to go to a atomizer since I set up the FX6. Before I was using a Eheim Pro3. The hose size on the FX6 is around 25mm, and the only one who sells a reactor for it is Nilocg, and seeing I live in Norway it costs quite a bit. I am planning to get it in the future. The reactor I have already only supports 16mm hose, and the flow from the FX6 is just too great for that reactor even if I tried to make it fit.

I had a dropchecker in every corner of the tank, close to the substrate and all showed the same color so I think it's well distributed. According to different PAR measurements from others, I have about 45-55 par at the substrate right under the light at Peak intensity. Doesn't seem excessively high to me, but if the issue persist, light is one thing I can try to change. But since I'm seeing these necrotic spots on some plants, I don't really think the lights are to blame for the algae at least. Think its more of a matter of the plants aren't doing too well.

The only thing left to try after that is a new regulator. It's not the most fancy one I have, just a brass single stage regulator. And I would like a dual stage anyways to eliminate "end of the tank dump".


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Fair enough. Have you seen the cerges type diy reactors that people build out of water filter housings? You can get whatever fittings/adapters you need to fit the hoses that you have.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

the toxicity of the city of the ciiiiity

toxicity is absolute horsefuk, especially at the levels we dose, even ei levels. probably if i dumped the whole bottle in though...


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

After doing some research on ADA's dosing schedule, I think I'll dose micros based on their levels of micros. ADA doses 0.01-0.02ppm of Fe daily, so I'm gonna do 0.02ppm Fe from the Rexolin every other day.

That would result in a 68mg dose of Rexolin APN in my case. Before it was 700mg every other day, over 10x times as much. Just need to get off my ass and do the restart already.

I'm not saying this is going to work, or this is the correct dosage for micros. All I'm doing is stating my plan, and will post updates, good or bad later on. Rest of the macros will be the lower end of EI.

3x per week:
PO4 at 0.2ppm per dose.
NO3 at 5ppm per dose.
K at 5ppm per dose.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

We'll, things are finally starting to turn around it seems. The last 2 days the plant growth has just exploded, I never had my plants grow this fast. My buce is even throwing out new flowers! And several new leaves are poking through, before they just put out 1 pr "rosette". And the L. Glandulosa already is at the top of the water lever, needs a trim. I even had to up my CO2 as the drop checker went from yellow to a dark lime green. And GSA actually seem to be dying off. There a couple of older leaves that was completely covered, and now is just infested in blotches. I have some shrimp and BN plecos, but I never seen them actually being able to eat it. I've seen the BN plecos graze on it, but it doesn't seem to affect it or it was just growing to fast before to make a dent in it.

Maybe its gonna be a bit over the top with new substrate and media, but seeing such improvements so far, just want me to do it more even if it's not strictly necessary, or at least doesn't look like it. FINALLY a "break through" 
Now since I'm seeing improvements, the restart isn't' really a immediate concern anymore, so ill just wait until my new order of plants arrive in a couple of day. That way I can also keep watching the algae, to see if it is actually diminishing.

Only thing I changed was stopping Micro dosing about 1.5 weeks ago and a 90% WC before that.

PS: I just want to state it again, I have very soft water which I think play a big role here regarding Micro toxicity. Harder water seems to handle it much better from what I've gathered by research this far.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

All new leaves are now back to normal, no twisting or any sign of deficiency. Except the L.Glandulosa seems to be lagging behind, still some twisting but way better. GSA is definitively dying, and even some of the BBA on the substrate has turned pink. I'm so excited! 

Edit: I'll grab some pictures once I get the chance.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

Might look worse algae wise, but it's in remission I can assure you.

Both Hygro's really starting to take off, and new leaves are 'yuuuge'.


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## max88 (Jun 22, 2013)

Malakian said:


> Hmm, but it does make a lot of sense, what you said before, but so does what you are saying now . It's just I don't know what more to try, worth a shot.


What I said/am saying makes sense only in theory. In practice, it is missing value of some important variables to give any certainty on existing substrate's toxicity. Much like saying bring an umbrella when it rains, put on sun screen when it shines, but never can tell whether it's going to rain or shine.

Glad to hear from your recent post that plants are showing sign of improvement after skipping micros. This validates the theory that either the toxins remained in water and got removed by water change, or they precipitated into solid that no longer matters. Just a theory.roud:


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

I can't help but think the big problem here was the massive dose of Potassium Chloride you laid down before putting the gravel in. Chloride has been linked to problems with nutrient uptake in plants, I'm wondering if something like Potassium Sulfate or Carbonate would have been a better choice, and in much, much smaller amounts to pre-charge the 'soil' under the gravel.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

GrampsGrunge said:


> I can't help but think the big problem here was the massive dose of Potassium Chloride you laid down before putting the gravel in. Chloride has been linked to problems with nutrient uptake in plants, I'm wondering if something like Potassium Sulfate or Carbonate would have been a better choice, and in much, much smaller amounts to pre-charge the 'soil' under the gravel.


Could of been a factor too, but it's seems to much of a coincidence after 2-3 years, that it should improve at the exact moment I stopped micros.

Not putting in anything this time for sure, getting the new plant shipment today so restarting tomorrow


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## elusive77 (Sep 27, 2016)

I just wanted to add my experience. I have been going through the exact same symptoms as you.... very poor small growth, twisted leaves, GSA outbreak followed quickly by BBA. It was taking over everything. My tank looked awful and I couldn't figure out why. I had a 1.3 PH drop for CO2. I was following EI for both Macros and Micros (CSM+B) and adding extra FE DTPA. I tested Nitrates and Phosphates daily to make sure I had enough. Weekly 50% water changes trying clean out lingering plant matter. I was doing everything right. Yet there was obviously something wrong. I didn't think I could possibly have a deficiency though.

When I read your thread I started thinking about the possibility of a toxicity. So I started researching through past threads. I know it has been a hotly contested topic here, but it seemed to have some merit, especially as it concerns CSM+B. I also noticed that people like @burr740, who have absolutely beautiful tanks, dosed very low levels of micros. So I decided to give it a try. I did a 60% water change and stopped dosing micros. This was the only change I made. I continued dosing Macros at the same level. I didn't tweak Co2. Nothing else changed at all. 

And now only a week later, it's a night and day change. There is lots of new growth on all plants. The leaves are bigger than they've ever been before. Even the older twisted leaves have started to straighten back out. I'm getting much better color in all the plants. Reds are starting to come through. GSA is disappearing quickly and no new BBA. It's amazing. Obviously I will have to add micros again at some point, but I will do it at much much lower levels, watching closely for any return to these symptoms. Just thought I would add my experience as a 2nd witness for any others out there that might experience these same issues.


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

Malakian said:


> Could of been a factor too, but it's seems to much of a coincidence after 2-3 years, that it should improve at the exact moment I stopped micros.
> 
> Not putting in anything this time for sure, getting the new plant shipment today so restarting tomorrow


That's a good point, my concern, ( probably unwarranted, but still..) was the Cl- ions were overwhelming the the Amazonia soil and clay and other high + cation exchange points, and becoming locked to them so the plant's hair roots had less Ammonium and Fe exchange area available.

It's interesting that the recommended EI dosage of the CSM+B micros is so high, I used a terrestrial iron plus micros liquid years back and it amounted to 2 ~ 5 of drops every month per tank just to keep my Echinodorus 'Rubin' and Rotala Mac reddish.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

StrungOut said:


> toxicity is absolute horsefeathers, especially at the levels we dose, even ei levels. probably if i dumped the whole bottle in though...


Actually, that's not true. In fact, if you'll allow me to paraphrase a study done by G. C. Gerloff and P. H. Krombholz, TISSUE ANALYSIS AS A MEASURE OF NUTRIENT AVAILABILITY FOR THE GROWTH OF ANGIOSPERM AQUATIC PLANT, I'll show why. By the way this is a paper Tom Barr references when discussing the origins of EI. 

Basically, it's a study that measured the nutrients contained in dried plants grown in a synthetic nutrient medium, i.e. our fertilizers and water.

The nutrient levels used were based on a modified Hoagland solution which is nearly a century old and still used today in modern hydroponics. They decided to use 20% of the macro nutrients and 100% of the trace elements contained in Hoagland solution. Here is a direct quote from the paper,



Gerloff and Krombholz said:


> "All of these organisms except IV. flexilis and C. demersum grew well in the nutrient medium (Table 1). Further work must be carried out to determine the reason for the less than optimum growth of the latter two plants. The relatively high concentrations of the trace elements suggest a toxicity from one or more elements in this group."


Now that we see it is indeed possible, let's compare their modified hoagland solution and EI. The numbers are all expressed as PPM.


```
[B]	FHS	MHS	EI	HS20[/B]	
N	210	42	33.6	42
P	31	6.2	5.8	6.2
K	235	47	33.6	47

Fe	1-5	0.40	2.2	0.5 (2.5 * 0.2)	
B	0.5	0.27	0.27	0.1		
Mn	0.5	0.27	0.63	0.1
Zn	0.05	0.13	0.13	0.01	
Cu	0.02	0.03	0.04	0.004
MO	0.01	0.01	0.02	0.002

[B]FHS[/B] Full Hoagland Solution
[B]MHS[/B] Modified Hoagland Solution used in study
[B]EI[/B] Average nutrient levels with no plant uptake and standard EI dosing and water changes. 
The average was computed using peak and trough from Rotala butterfly's [URL="https://rotalabutterfly.com/accumulation-calculator.php"]Nutrient Accumulation Calculator[/URL], ((Peak - Trough) / 2) + Trough = Average   
[B]HS20[/B] 20% of a Standard Hoagland solution.
```
It's pretty clear to me that the trace amounts in EI are indeed excessive. It's odd how close the numbers actually are. To me the clear choice would be HS20. Unfortunatley, iron cannot be used as a dosing proxy. A trace mix such as Plantex can be used. However, the dosing proxy should be Mn or Zn rather than iron. I think this fact alone has led to the issues we have been seeing lately. That separation alone could alleviate most issues we have seen in my opinion.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

Small update. Damn plant supplier shipped me Micranthemum 'Monte Carlo' instead of HC :/ We'll, looking on the bright side, I can probably carpet most of my low tech shrimp tank with the 4 pots I got. MMC should do ok without CO2 as far as I understand, just grow very slowly.

So today I visited the 5 LFS withing a hour driving range. Finally found 3x cups of Tropica's HC. But now I will have to postpone it a bit, since I want a full day for the restart so I don't have to hustle.

Interesting read about the 20% Hoagland solution. That's very close to my modified EI I'm planning to use. EI for Macros and ADA's dosing schedule for Micros.


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## elusive77 (Sep 27, 2016)

Malakian said:


> That's very close to my modified EI I'm planning to use. EI for Macros and ADA's dosing schedule for Micros.


What is ADA's dosing schedule for micros? I need to come up with a new dosing level for Micros now.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

elusive77 said:


> What is ADA's dosing schedule for micros? I need to come up with a new dosing level for Micros now.


https://postimage.org/

So to follow that, since I have new soil in now. I'm gonna do 0.02ppm Fe from my Trace mix (Rexolin APN) every other day for the first 3 months. Then I'll up it to 0.04ppm Fe every other day at 3 months or first sign of trace deficiency.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Zorfox said:


> Actually, that's not true. In fact, if you'll allow me to paraphrase a study done by G. C. Gerloff and P. H. Krombholz, TISSUE ANALYSIS AS A MEASURE OF NUTRIENT AVAILABILITY FOR THE GROWTH OF ANGIOSPERM AQUATIC PLANT, I'll show why. By the way this is a paper Tom Barr references when discussing the origins of EI.
> 
> Basically, it's a study that measured the nutrients contained in dried plants grown in a synthetic nutrient medium, i.e. our fertilizers and water.
> 
> ...


Just a correction, Hoagland's Solution is nitrogen-N, not nitrate-N. So 1/5th Hoagland's is 186mgl of nitrate. EI N is NOT 1/5th Hoagland's but 1/30th. 30mgl of nitrate is <7mgl N.

Same issue for phosphorus. 1/5th Hoagland's P is 19mgl Pi (inorganic phosphate). So EI P=1.4 is also about 1/30th Hoagland's, not 1/5th.

This is a basic error that Barr made when he created EI. Now with 1/30th weekly NP but 1/5 micros dosed 2-3x per week is 1/2 HS, there will likely be heavy metal tox issues to plants that are not hyperaccumulators. This says nothing about heavy metal poisoning to fish and shrimp which can not tolerate such high concentrations without internal organ and nervous system damage.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

> It's pretty clear to me that the trace amounts in EI are indeed excessive. It's odd how close the numbers actually are. To me the clear choice would be HS20. Unfortunatley, iron cannot be used as a dosing proxy. A trace mix such as Plantex can be used. However, the dosing proxy should be Mn or Zn rather than iron. I think this fact alone has led to the issues we have been seeing lately. That separation alone could alleviate most issues we have seen in my opinion.


ok mr. scientist, explain to me how i'm getting away with double ei dose of trace elements?


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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

StrungOut said:


> ok mr. scientist, explain to me how i'm getting away with double ei dose of trace elements?


 OOOOOH
*dramatic jump back*


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## aclaar877 (Feb 19, 2014)

StrungOut said:


> ok mr. scientist, explain to me how i'm getting away with double ei dose of trace elements?


That's great that you're growing plants fine with lots of traces. Are traces from CSM+B? And what plants do you have? When I dosed about 0.75 ppm Fe from CSM+B three times a week, plus O+ tabs, plus unknown tap water trace levels, I have awful stunting of A Reineckii, Ludwigia Glandulosa, and even had crazy twisting and "frying" on swordplant leaves. And this was with pH drop of 1.3. But, not all plants suffered - Bacopa, Crypts, Anubias, L Repens and Ludwigia Narrow Leaf grew fine with dosing those levels. That being said, the suggestion to lower trace dosing, and not keep monkeying with CO2/flow/light for months on end is one of the best pieces of advice I've gotten from 12 years on these aquatic plant forums. My symptoms were exactly like the OP's symptoms in this thread. If you can grow AR with 1.0 ppm Fe from traces three times a week, then my hat's off to you. I couldn't do it, but I'm growing fine AR with much lower trace dosing.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

I grow syn, buce, ar opicus, monte carlo, pantanal, erio, echinodorus, mosses n liverworts n fissidens. There maybe others.

Intrigue this.

I really think its on being an established system. Microorganisms bacteria, all established and your system can handle anything. Most anything. This is why certain test won't work, cause something is helping our systems compared to water in a test tube. In the beginning i don't think my system could handle the fertilizers but now, I think i can dose a whole lot without repercussion which has been happening...


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

StrungOut said:


> ok mr. scientist, explain to me how i'm getting away with double ei dose of trace elements?



Gonna take a wild guess and say you have pretty hard water. Then Trace toxicity is far less likely to happen. I have 3 GH and 1-1.5 in KH. In other words, very soft water.

Edit: And please keep it civil, you're giving off a very negative/aggressive vibe. Not sure if that's your intention. And just because it doesn't happen in your tank, doesn't mean it can't happen. I too thought like you and EI was a sure bet for a loooong time, any problems and its CO2 issue. But I have been doing this a for close to 3 years (12 if you count my low-tech years) now not changing my dosing at all (1-1.5X EI on all ferts) only tweaking CO2, flow and lights. And seeing all the "Trace toxicity" threads show up around several forums and quite a few are seeing improvements after stopping/reduce trace's are "proof" enough for me to at least research it more, but I could be wrong. I don't have Dr. degree in organic- inorganic- and bio-chemistry. But who knows, we might be able to improve EI fertilizer schedule, even Tom Barr says so himself "EI is not set in stone..". Can at least discuss it without being "throw to the lions". My 2 cents on the matter.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Malakian said:


> Gonna take a wild guess and say you have pretty hard water. Then Trace toxicity is far less likely to happen. I have 3 GH and 1-1.5 in KH. In other words, very soft water.
> 
> Edit: And please keep it civil, you're giving off a very negative/aggressive vibe. Not sure if that's your intention. And just because it doesn't happen in your tank, doesn't mean it can't happen. I too thought like you and EI was a sure bet for a loooong time, any problems and its CO2 issue. But I have been doing this a for close to 3 years (12 if you count my low-tech years) now not changing my dosing at all (1-1.5X EI on all ferts) only tweaking CO2, flow and lights. And seeing all the "Trace toxicity" threads show up around several forums and quite a few are seeing improvements after stopping/reduce trace's are "proof" enough for me to at least research it more, but I could be wrong. I don't have Dr. degree in organic- inorganic- and bio-chemistry. But who knows, we might be able to improve EI fertilizer schedule, even Tom Barr says so himself "EI is not set in stone..". Can at least discuss it without being "throw to the lions". My 2 cents on the matter.




I have also seen others report that by reducing micro ferts that they have seen improvements where that was only change and nothing else worked. Not saying works for all but some have noticed improvements. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Malakian said:


> Gonna take a wild guess and say you have pretty hard water. Then Trace toxicity is far less likely to happen. I have 3 GH and 1-1.5 in KH. In other words, very soft water.
> 
> Edit: And please keep it civil, you're giving off a very negative/aggressive vibe. Not sure if that's your intention. And just because it doesn't happen in your tank, doesn't mean it can't happen. I too thought like you and EI was a sure bet for a loooong time, any problems and its CO2 issue. But I have been doing this a for close to 3 years (12 if you count my low-tech years) now not changing my dosing at all (1-1.5X EI on all ferts) only tweaking CO2, flow and lights. And seeing all the "Trace toxicity" threads show up around several forums and quite a few are seeing improvements after stopping/reduce trace's are "proof" enough for me to at least research it more, but I could be wrong. I don't have Dr. degree in organic- inorganic- and bio-chemistry. But who knows, we might be able to improve EI fertilizer schedule, even Tom Barr says so himself "EI is not set in stone..". Can at least discuss it without being "throw to the lions". My 2 cents on the matter.


I highly assure you my water is softer..

I didn't mean to give off that vibe, I'm sorry, but traces at ei levels in discussion just doesn't seem to cause toxicity. Unless I am not dosing double ei levels? This might be so. I'm just basing on experience myself, T. B. has 30+ himself under his belt, doesn't that tell you shisss
I'm basically following the same steps he is experience wise and seeing the revelations

Sorry, i take it that you're calling me king with the lion reference, i don't see any other lions in this one.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

> And just because it doesn't happen in your tank, doesn't mean it can't happen. I too thought like you and EI was a sure bet for a loooong time, any problems and its CO2 issue


This could be true co2 could be the issue. Then it could be light. Or it could be other fertilizers. Because i'm trying to say is each variable affects the other variable. Can you agree on this?

So in a way i think we could say we are aiming to strike a balance in our tanks.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

StrungOut said:


> ok mr. scientist, explain to me how i'm getting away with double ei dose of trace elements?


Actually, that's a excellent question. I happen to be in your shoes. I dose EI (and higher from time to time) without issues. I've never been able to reproduce the problems described. Yet, many people have complained of the same issues as Malakian. Like it or not, anecdotal evidence has value. If this were a few isolated cases I wouldn't even take notice. Sadly, that's not the case. 

Why don't we have problems when they do?

I realized most people that reported problems had relatively low PH. That would make a lot of sense since trace elements are impacted heavily by the PH of the system. The availability of trace elements are further related to the chelate used. The chelate used typically has a narrow range as far as PH is concerned.










As you can see EDTA is effective at lower PH ranges. In these "low PH" systems plants would have more access to trace elements since it's still chelated and soluble in the water column.

It makes sense to me. You?

Now lets take a look at the simple stuff, or is it?. The *trace element levels I posted earlier in this thread*.

The *study I referenced* used a nutrient solution with a PH from 6.0 - 6.5. Toxicity at a low PH? If you take a look they used EDTA. 

Still fits doesn't it?

Most of the tanks having these issues are "old", a year or more. What's up with that one?

The PH issue above is important. If we want to keep an element soluble in water and protected from reactions we chelate (protect) it. How long it remains safe depends on the chelate. Yes, I repeated myself. It's that important! 

What happens to Zn, Mn, B, Fe, Mo... if it's not chelated or at a high PH where the chelate isn't stable?

Put simply it reacts with something else. For example, iron, in laymen's terms, rusts when exposed to water. That rust falls down into the substrate. Take that reaction and multiply by the number of trace nutrients you dose. That's the minimum amount of things raining down into your substrate. 

Read this post I recently made in Tinanti's thread, *Growth problems (twisted leaves, etc)*. Make particular attention to the fact that EDTA is not biodegradable. 

I'll save the casual reader here. The chelates we use in Plantex and most trace fertilizers is NOT biodegradable. It may sound worse for our tanks than it is but I’m not sure. Chelation chemistry is very complex and I’m certainly no chemist. I would expect the chelate to remain soluble, therefore, would be removed with water changes? This would still pose a problem for those that dose fertilizers and do no water changes. It appears we will be using different chelates in the future such as EDDS and IDHA?

Soooo... now we dose too much, the excess is in the substrate for plant roots, the chelates may be at high levels (as long as you NEVER made a dosing error, pff lol). 

If we have a high PH under all those situations we may be able to pull it off for quite a while. Lower the PH to anywhere near six and it falls apart. That said there comes a point where all substrates become overloaded if there is ANY excess. Nature has a funny way of controlling problems.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Zorfox said:


> Actually, that's a excellent question. I happen to be in your shoes. I dose EI (and higher from time to time) without issues. I've never been able to reproduce the problems described. Yet, many people have complained of the same issues as Malakian. Like it or not, anecdotal evidence has value. If this were a few isolated cases I wouldn't even take notice. Sadly, that's not the case.
> 
> Why don't we have problems when they do?
> 
> ...


Ty for this explanation. My tank definitely counters this being lower pH then most all if we're discussing low pH n chelate. Its a counter punch but this was very good information. thx


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

Well that does it!

Your just ATYPICAL!

Which makes me curious :wink2: lol

How old is your setup? Dosing, filtration blah, blah, blah...

Atypical results often yield new insights. 

Btw, Your welcome. I enjoy talking about this with others that "get it".


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> Just a correction, Hoagland's Solution is nitrogen-N, not nitrate-N. So 1/5th Hoagland's is 186mgl of nitrate. EI N is NOT 1/5th Hoagland's but 1/30th. 30mgl of nitrate is <7mgl N.
> 
> Same issue for phosphorus. 1/5th Hoagland's P is 19mgl Pi (inorganic phosphate). So EI P=1.4 is also about 1/30th Hoagland's, not 1/5th.
> 
> This is a basic error that Barr made when he created EI. Now with 1/30th weekly NP but 1/5 micros dosed 2-3x per week is 1/2 HS, there will likely be heavy metal tox issues to plants that are not hyperaccumulators. This says nothing about heavy metal poisoning to fish and shrimp which can not tolerate such high concentrations without internal organ and nervous system damage.


I agree. In fact, when I was typing the chart I added N and NO3 values but thought it would confuse the current topic so just kept the N. If we convert the 42 ppm of N (nitrogen) in the 20% hoagland solution it would end up as 186 ppm NO3 (nitrate)! The 6 ppm of P (phosphorus)?...14 ppm of PO4 (phosphate)!

It does make you wonder what would happen if you scaled it down using nitrate as a proxy. Keep all the ratios the same. Run an average NO3 range of about 20 ppm since that seems to be the concensus on that nutrient. Are trace elements actually that much less necessary? Is the NPK ratio that far off? Who knows. If only I had unlimited time lol


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Zorfox said:


> Well that does it!
> 
> Your just ATYPICAL!
> 
> ...


Ty, i take that as a great [email protected]#$:x

here ya go:

40 breeder
t5ho-39w x 4 bulbs, lights are on legs, raises bout 3" off the tank.
pure ro, no remineral
soil is africana, which buffer 5.5, so i'm guessing i'm at 5.0 ph at *max* with co2, it cannot be higher then that unless i got the buffer wrong.
ferts-nilocg likuid fert suggested dosing 1 pump per gallon but double. Now I started dosing double around 3/22/17 i'd say, maybe it'll eventually backfire iono, but honestly, there were days in that period where i didn't double dose down, just normal ei levels. Yet always dosed daily. It could be li. fert. r a lot cleaner. I wonder if i double dosed dry if i would get algae as my opinion the cleaner the fert the better inhibit algae. Like pferts, they were lab grade, hoping someone could repeat their product. I was dosing urea before, its been on n off, but off more recently dosing.
co2-blah (double reactors, no issues diffusing)
filter-blah
fish-blah (fish less)


The story behind, I had a grip of cyano along with other algae, my friend advised me to dose more po4 for a whole week. at this point i was thinking just a pinch daily, but i got in argument with another friend literally fert caused my algae problems. I got pissed, and trialed double ei from there. The more i dosed, the more algae would go away. 

With this being seen, i don't see toxicity an issue with the levels we dose at. This goes back to what i said bout established colony/ environment.

another insight is that i switched from led to t5, so maybe increase demand for nutrient uptake n it'll catch up to me.

is there anymore info i can give you *Mr.* Scientist?


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

StrungOut said:


> is there anymore info i can give you *Mr.* Scientist?


Why yes, thanks for asking. 

How old is the tank? Also, how long have you been dosing EI in this tank? 

What is your PH? I don't mean what you think it should be. An actual PH measure. If your using the EI method then your doing 50% weekly water changes. That would reduce the substrate's ability to keep PH low substantially. 

Just a suggestion but you may want to start remineralizing your R/O. Many R/O units will remove quite a lot of Ca and Mg. Not to mention adding GH booster has always been part of EI. So technically, your'e not dosing EI.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Have followed the trace toxicity thread's from Here, to aquaticplant central,aquascaping world forum,UKAPS.org,Barr report.
I pretty much dismiss those who have made several changes to their routine in addition to cutting back on their trace mineral's for in my mind,they cannot definitively say that decreasing the traces alone is what turned thing's around for them.
Other's made no changes other than decreasing their traces, and most reported improvement over week's ,often followed by rapid decline in overall plant health.
I also dismiss those who claim immediate massive improvement/growth as in a day or two after decreasing traces/micros.
It just don't happen.
I do believe substrates depending on composistion,can hold onto nutrient's for a good while and maybe less of all nutrient's are needed depending on plant mass and or types being grown. 
Have yet to see, nor do I expect to ,,anyone posting up number's that they deem toxic for even a dozen of the some 400 aquatic species of plant's for all it would take is a few(choose your own number), dosing way more without issues with same plant's, to bring everything back to square one.?


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## Redneck tenner (Aug 21, 2016)

roadmaster said:


> Have followed the trace toxicity thread's from Here, to aquaticplant central,aquascaping world forum,UKAPS.org,Barr report.
> I pretty much dismiss those who have made several changes to their routine in addition to cutting back on their trace mineral's for in my mind,they cannot definitively say that decreasing the traces alone is what turned thing's around for them.
> Other's made no changes other than decreasing their traces, and most reported improvement over week's ,often followed by rapid decline in overall plant health.
> I also dismiss those who claim immediate massive improvement/growth as in a day or two after decreasing traces/micros.
> ...


And to add...most of us have no way to measure cec values of substrates. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Zorfox said:


> Why yes, thanks for asking.
> 
> How old is the tank? Also, how long have you been dosing EI in this tank?
> 
> ...


Ok, tank was set up last december.

dosing double ei?, um....3 weeks? before i was doing pps pro

the substrate i would bet my life is at max six, and i'm sure is around the 5's but i wouldn't bet my life on the 5. with co2 (PH)

i have been using ro pure since the beginning, once in a blue moon i add 1% tap

sorry it took so long reply.

you can see progressions here
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/33-plants/1097921-syngonanthus-sp-passion.html

on a side note, i double dose traces in my other tank fish were almost dropping when i put co2 on. i turned off the co2 lights and added agitation
iono if this says anything but the fish seemed to be extremely sensitive to co2 after the dose..


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Malakian,

Nice to see someone from Norway on the forum; my Dad came over from Norway when he was 5 years old - I have a lot of relatives around Oslo.

Two things come to mind, first you have very soft water (as I do here in Seattle) do you add anything to increase your Ca or Mg levels?

Rotala Butterfly is a good calculator ( I use it myself) but I strongly disagree with their target of 0.2 ppm for Fe. Tom Barr typically doses 0.7ppm of Fe or higher....what level of Fe are you dosing?

I had to look up your micro-nutrient fertilizer, it is only 6% Fe verses 7% for CSM.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

According to this post, Tom doses about .2 these days

Iron chelate clouding water - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report



Tom Barr;n231342 said:


> Yes, I use hot water for a simple reason, things dissolve much better/faster. I go through a lot of traces with 450 gallon of tank and then client's have a few thousand gallons......
> the Vinegar is used to remove the KH from the hot tap water and also to prevent any mold. You should always add that first....before adding the chelated Fe.
> 
> I use ETDA(from CMS+B), Gluconate and DTPA. Also make my own dry bulk CMS and then add the B. Then mix it well for an hour in a mixer.
> ...


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Malakian,
> 
> Nice to see someone from Norway on the forum; my Dad came over from Norway when he was 5 years old - I have a lot of relatives around Oslo.
> 
> ...


Not that many into planted tanks here, so I kinda have to use foreign forums  

Yes, I add 6gr of MgSO4 at WC which should give me about 5-7.5ppm calculating for accumulation and uptake (about 45g of water total in tank) since I have so low GH. My tap has 21ppm Ca and 0.23ppm Mg according to the water reports so I should be fine on Ca. 

At the moment I dosing 0.04ppm (0.01ppm Fe from Rexolin APN and 0.03ppm Fe from EDDHA 6%) daily. That's more a ADA approach than EI, but I've tried EI a long time now so just wanted to see what would happen. Will it do better or go more downhill for my tank. I did dose 0.5ppm Fe from CSM+B before all this and compared to Rexolin, no noticeable difference when dosed at the same amounts, only a slight tint to the water from the Rexolin. I found the Rexolin APN locally and much cheaper, so thats why I switched.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

Thought I would come with a update.

Plants are happier, AR minis are growing nicely now and most of the plants are not showing twisted leaves anymore.
But the algae is still there, and seem to be spreading still but very slowly.

Got a new 2 stage regulator on the way, and planning to try Eheim Compact 600+ with DIY needle wheel impeller instead of diffuser. (this or/and a Venturi is what Mr.Barr recommends for co2 diffusion.)
I still think I have been dosing to much traces, as I have never been able to grow nice AR's after the initial twisting appears. They would just melt away.
Since the restart I have been dosing "Full Burr" dose (from Burr740, .01 Fe from csmb .02 ppm Fe dtpa 3x pr week). Using EDDHA 6% Fe instead, and 0.005ppm CSMB 0.01ppm EDDHA daily. Changed a lot back and forth, but settled on this. Macros are still at EI levels.

Have yet to see any trace deficiencies. Although my S.repens has some yellowing of the tissue between veins on older leaves. Looks like magnesium deficiency even though I have been adding 5ppm Mg to water used at WC. Maybe I should up the dose a bit. Or maybe a early on-set of phosphate deficiency, but seems unlikely since I dose 0.5ppm Po4 every day and the new soil.

So all in all, an improvement but it still seems to be some Co2 issues. I'm guessing fluctuating levels, since drop checkers are yellow at ever corner of the tank 1" above substrate.
Hopefully the new regulator and a more efficient diffusion method will do the trick.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Glad to hear that there's been improvement!

And just so you know, my micro levels most likely will not be enough over the long haul if you have a high cec substrate. 

Probably have to inch them back up some when the honeymoon period is over. Its hard to say for sure though.

The fact that you saw improvement is a good sign your on the right track. But the sweet spot will likely be somewhere in between the two levels.


And yeah definitely work to get the CO2 right, otherwise it'll be like playing whack-a-mole with one issue after another.


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## alphabeta (Jul 14, 2014)

burr740 is brightwell or ada amazonia high CEC? 
Also, Malakian, can you please point to the original "Full Burr dose" post. 
thanks!


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

alphabeta said:


> burr740 is brightwell or ada amazonia high CEC?
> Also, Malakian, can you please point to the original "Full Burr dose" post.
> thanks!


Hey alphabeta. I dont know what Brightwell is, but all ADA aquasoils are high CEC.

Pretty much the only substrates that have no CEC are sand and regular aquarium gravel (which still may have a tiny bit on the surface, Im not sure)

As for "burr dosing" well, thats sorta taken a life of it's own lately, and even I dont know exactly what it is.

In a nutshell though, it's high macros at roughly EI levels, and very low micros/Fe.

The sweet spot for me seems to be around .01 -.02 ppm csm-b (calculated for Fe) and another .015-.04 ppm of an additional Fe source(s) - 3x a week.

When Ive listed my dosing in various threads, you might notice it it's not always the same. That's because Im always tweaking the amounts one way or the other, trying to find my own golden sweet spot where everything does wonderfull.

Which is an exercise in futility most likely, because dosing isnt supposed to be this complicated or...touchy

The point I try to get across is for people to see that zero in front of the decimal point, to realize just how little Im having success with running very high light on tanks full of hungry stems.

It's certainly not for everyone, and as previously mentioned, seems to not be so good in conjunction with high CEC subs.

But _*IF*_ a person is having issues while dosing high levels of micros such as EI, cutting micros down some can have a very positive affect. Ive seen it first hand, over and over and over. 

Usually folks with Aquasoil or some other high cec substrate experience a rapid improvement in the first few days, which may last for a couple or three weeks. I call this the honeymoon period.

But then as levels start bottoming out, new deficiencies begin to appear. Which means it's time to bump the levels up some.

The gap between my dosing and EI levels is a wide one, 10-50 times difference. The sweet spot for most people is going to lie somewhere in between. 

This is where one needs the ability to observe the plants and make adjustments according to what they tell us, along with the patience to let it all play out.


*It is also important to note* that everything above assumes having good CO2 to begin with. Otherwise it's going to be one issue after another, regardless what kind of ferts get dumped in the tank. 

CO2 should always be the first thing addressed. Everything else comes secondary in a high light tank.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

alphabeta said:


> burr740 is brightwell or ada amazonia high CEC?
> Also, Malakian, can you please point to the original "Full Burr dose" post.
> thanks!


I use the levels mentioned in his journal.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1117642-120-gal-dutchy-freestyle.html


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## alphabeta (Jul 14, 2014)

burr740, thanks for the detailed explanation. post saved.


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## Saxa Tilly (Apr 7, 2015)

FWIW, I've tried these doses:

1. Full Burr with Aquasoil: flattened out AR leaves but ran into Fe deficiency after 1 month

2. Full Barr (EI) with Aquasoil: most plants very well. Rotala, Ammannia, and AR not happy.

3. Full Burr with inert gravel: most plants did OK. Rotala, Ammannia did OK. 

4. Half Burr with inert gravel: most plants were miserable. Severe deficiency. 

5. Full Barr (EI using Thrive+ and macros on top) with inert gravel: Most plants were ecstatic but many Rotala/Ammannia tips stunted. Macrandra and Enie fared the worst. AR leaves wavy. 

6. 3X Burr + 0.1 Fe from DTPA with Aquasoil: too soon to tell, but AR leaves are nice and flat.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

Saxa Tilly said:


> FWIW, I've tried these doses:
> 
> 1. Full Burr with Aquasoil: flattened out AR leaves but ran into Fe deficiency after 1 month
> 
> ...


Yeah, with my aquasoil (tropica's, but from what I gathered is pretty much the same as ADA) I might have to up my traces.
Plants are showing some signs of deficiency. Lower leaves get yellow and fall off, and leaf tips are curling down. Yellowing I would think is Nitrogen or Phosphate, but that just doesn't seem likely with the new soil and EI dosing of macros. Hygro's also get pinholes before yellowing, but I can't imagine it being potassium either, I'm using "DIY Brigthy K", so with that and the KH2PO4 and KNO3 I'm adding about 4.4ppm K per day. So I'm leaning towards traces/Fe and/or Co2. Dialing that in with a new reg and reactor as we speak. My old atomic diffuser with Dropchecker seem to give a inaccurately high co2 reading. Changing to the reactor with pretty much the same BPS/co2 injected I only reached a dark green color, while it was yellow with the diffuser.

Any who, ill get the co2 sorted, then try increasing traces if they don't improve.

Edit: And AR seems to be a awesome plant to have in the tank, not just for it gorgeous looks. But it seem to be a very good indicator of optimal trace levels for your tank. To much and they curl like crazy, to little and other plants start suffering.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Malakian said:


> Yeah, with my aquasoil (tropica's, but from what I gathered is pretty much the same as ADA) I might have to up my traces.
> Plants are showing some signs of deficiency. Lower leaves get yellow and fall off, and leaf tips are curling down. Yellowing I would think is Nitrogen or Phosphate, but that just doesn't seem likely with the new soil and EI dosing of macros. Hygro's also get pinholes before yellowing, but I can't imagine it being potassium either, I'm using "DIY Brigthy K", so with that and the KH2PO4 and KNO3 I'm adding about 4.4ppm K per day. So I'm leaning towards traces/Fe and/or Co2. Dialing that in with a new reg and reactor as we speak.




My guess is and is just that a guess but from you not having optimal co2 levels like was discussed yesterday. Get that DC a consistent light green by lights on and check next few days you should see improvement. As long as you are at EI level you should not have to up dose. 

All those deficiencies are most likely from the co2 issue. Again my guess but co2 is always first. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

clownplanted said:


> My guess is and is just that a guess but from you not having optimal co2 levels like was discussed yesterday. Get that DC a consistent light green by lights on and check next few days you should see improvement. As long as you are at EI level you should not have to up dose.
> 
> All those deficiencies are most likely from the co2 issue. Again my guess but co2 is always first.
> 
> ...


We'll, I have a "frankensteins monster" dosing schedule. Using ADA's brigthy K for potassium, also wanted the added +0.22 dKH per dose, since I have so low KH from the tap and the soil adsorbs even more leaving me with a KH of under 1 if I don't dose brighty K. Around 2-2.5 dKH with it. EI for macros and what I like to call "full Burr" (stolen from somebody else, but it had a nice ring to it  ) for Micros. So micro deficiency is not unlikely seeing that they are very low compared to EI.

But yeah, I think your right about the Co2. Since plants are showing more than 1 deficiency at once, that seems the most likely.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Malakian said:


> We'll, I have a "frankensteins monster" dosing schedule. Using ADA's brigthy K for potassium, also wanted the added +0.22 dKH per dose, since I have so low KH from the tap and the soil adsorbs even more leaving me with a KH of under 1 if I don't dose brighty K. Around 2-2.5 dKH with it. EI for macros and what I like to call "full Burr" (stolen from somebody else, but it had a nice ring to it  ) for Micros. So micro deficiency is not unlikely seeing that they are very low compared to EI.
> 
> But yeah, I think your right about the Co2. Since plants are showing more than 1 deficiency at once, that seems the most likely.


Love this chart.

If I were you here is what I would do. To rule everything out.

Dose Full EI and add a bit extra Iron. What I do and my plants absolutely love it. You could have an Iron def with Yellowing of entire leaf.
Get the co2 consistent.

Do those two and am confident you will see HUGE improvement.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

clownplanted said:


> Love this chart.
> 
> If I were you here is what I would do. To rule everything out.
> 
> ...


That's my plan, other than EI traces. That has not worked out well for me in the past, as I mentioned before I never was able to grow AR minis, they would just start twisting about 2-3 weeks after planting from tissue culture, then melt away. Lowering traces to "Full Burr", made my AR minis bounce back and growing nice flat, large leaves again.

But as Burr740 said himself, his dose for high CEC substrate will probably be to low in the long run. So I have to adjust it to get it where AR's is growing nice, but no symptoms of deficiencies in other plants.

I thought Iron deficiency would show itself as yellow/white new leaves? And older yellow leaves is a sign of a mobile nutrient like phosphate and nitrate, and Iron is not a mobile nutrient I thought at least. I'm no chemist though, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, that chart is great been using it myself. But as with everything else you're the judge, and I don't trust myself to have enough knowledge to do that properly.


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## alphabeta (Jul 14, 2014)

Saxa Tilly said:


> FWIW, I've tried these doses:
> 6. 3X Burr + 0.1 Fe from DTPA with Aquasoil: too soon to tell, but AR leaves are nice and flat.


Saza Tilly, do you mean about Fe 0.045ppm from CMS+B and 0.1ppm from DTPA?


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## Saxa Tilly (Apr 7, 2015)

Malakian said:


> Yeah, with my aquasoil (tropica's, but from what I gathered is pretty much the same as ADA) I might have to up my traces.
> Plants are showing some signs of deficiency. Lower leaves get yellow and fall off, and leaf tips are curling down. Yellowing I would think is Nitrogen or Phosphate, but that just doesn't seem likely with the new soil and EI dosing of macros. Hygro's also get pinholes before yellowing, but I can't imagine it being potassium either, I'm using "DIY Brigthy K", so with that and the KH2PO4 and KNO3 I'm adding about 4.4ppm K per day. So I'm leaning towards traces/Fe and/or Co2. Dialing that in with a new reg and reactor as we speak. My old atomic diffuser with Dropchecker seem to give a inaccurately high co2 reading. Changing to the reactor with pretty much the same BPS/co2 injected I only reached a dark green color, while it was yellow with the diffuser.
> 
> Any who, ill get the co2 sorted, then try increasing traces if they don't improve.
> ...



For practical purposes, Aquasoil = Tropica soil. Both have high CEC. 

At regular Burr Dose, my 2 year old aquasoil ran out of iron after a month. Newer soils are less likely to have this problem, but with CEC-related binding, you may need more than regular Burr. 

Lower leaves falling off after yellowing sounds like macro issues. Not inconceivable in new soils. Could happen. I don’t know if Tropica infuses ammonia into their clays. If not, it’s more likely. Easy way to find out if this is true – dose 10-1-10 (NPK ppm) may be twice a week for a month. This plus fish poop should give the tank enough macros to fix the leaf-shedding problem if that is the cause.

Yes, pinholes are said to be the classic K deficiency symptom. But this is not necessarily the case with Hygrophila. This genus suffers this symptom if an imbalance or over-fertilization occurs as well. I can induce pinholes in Hygro pinnatifida when I dose EI with inert substrate and completely eliminate it when I dose Burr + inert substrate. 

Yes, AR leaf flatness is a very good gauge of trace adequacy and overkill.

Bump:


alphabeta said:


> Saza Tilly, do you mean about Fe 0.045ppm from CMS+B and 0.1ppm from DTPA?


Yes. Same Trace solution that Burr makes, but instead of dosing 10 ml into my 180 gal tank, I dose 30 ml. Fe from CSM+B is 0.045 ppm but I don't remember what the total iron is at the moment including DTPA.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

Saxa Tilly said:


> For practical purposes, Aquasoil = Tropica soil. Both have high CEC.
> 
> At regular Burr Dose, my 2 year old aquasoil ran out of iron after a month. Newer soils are less likely to have this problem, but with CEC-related binding, you may need more than regular Burr.
> 
> ...


I do dose EI for macros, and when I tested it a couple of days ago, I had 20ppm No3 and 1ppm Po4. And dosing K at around 32ppm per week. Even if the soil doesn't have ammonia bound to it, there should be more than enough in the water-column of the macros. Shedding might be because the tank had no light for 3 days, while I was building and dialing in the cerges. I actually added more lights about a week ago. 2x t5ho with 2 hour on before the planted+ 24/7 peaks par wise, and 2 hours after. Actually seem to help with the algae and plants are pearling like never before, I would think it would be the other way around. But I guess it can happen, if I'm providing "high light" levels of everything and only using medium light at best (around 40 par prior to this). Now I'm in the high light area, with about 90-100 par at the substrate with a 40 par "siesta" in the middle for about 3 hours.

I'm gonna try and double my traces, which would give me 0.030ppm per dose. 0.010ppm Fe from CSM+b 0.020ppm Fe from EDDHA Fe 6%

Edit: You're saying you can induce pinholes in the H.pinnatifida when dosing EI, are you referring to EI in general (Macro and micro) or just micros?


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## Saxa Tilly (Apr 7, 2015)

Malakian said:


> I do dose EI for macros, and when I tested it a couple of days ago, I had 20ppm No3 and 1ppm Po4. And dosing K at around 32ppm per week. Even if the soil doesn't have ammonia bound to it, there should be more than enough in the water-column of the macros. Shedding might be because the tank had no light for 3 days, while I was building and dialing in the cerges. I actually added more lights about a week ago. 2x t5ho with 2 hour on before the planted+ 24/7 peaks par wise, and 2 hours after. Actually seem to help with the algae and plants are pearling like never before, I would think it would be the other way around. But I guess it can happen, if I'm providing "high light" levels of everything and only using medium light at best (around 40 par prior to this). Now I'm in the high light area, with about 90-100 par at the substrate with a 40 par "siesta" in the middle for about 3 hours.
> 
> I'm gonna try and double my traces, which would give me 0.030ppm per dose. 0.010ppm Fe from CSM+b 0.020ppm Fe from EDDHA Fe 6%
> 
> Edit: You're saying you can induce pinholes in the H.pinnatifida when dosing EI, are you referring to EI in general (Macro and micro) or just micros?


Since you're dosing EI and 30+ ppm K per week, there is no way in hell the leaves are dropping due to low macros. And the pinholes in the Hygro are definitely not from K deficiency. 

As for what specifically causes pinholes in hydro pinnatifida, I don't have proof. Must state disclaimers such as 'n=1, anecdotal evidence, correlation-not-causation, blah, blah' but I've never been able to grow this plant without pinholes under EI. I have never dosed EI traces and low macros, but pinholes were not present and the plant got HUGE and aggressive when dosing regular 1X and HALF-Burr Burr over inert substrate, toxic levels of CO2 and high light. So I suspect that with low/zero CEC substrates, high traces can cause some sort of induced deficiency or pinholes caused by other pathologies. It seemed to thrive under low fert dosing. While most plants were half dead under Half Burr, this plant took off. I've documented more of this under my journal 'Rotala Kill Tank' over at Barr Report.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Malakian said:


> I do dose EI for macros, and when I tested it a couple of days ago, I had 20ppm No3 and 1ppm Po4. And dosing K at around 32ppm per week. Even if the soil doesn't have ammonia bound to it, there should be more than enough in the water-column of the macros. Shedding might be because the tank had no light for 3 days, while I was building and dialing in the cerges. I actually added more lights about a week ago. 2x t5ho with 2 hour on before the planted+ 24/7 peaks par wise, and 2 hours after. Actually seem to help with the algae and plants are pearling like never before, I would think it would be the other way around. But I guess it can happen, if I'm providing "high light" levels of everything and only using medium light at best (around 40 par prior to this). Now I'm in the high light area, with about 90-100 par at the substrate with a 40 par "siesta" in the middle for about 3 hours.
> 
> I'm gonna try and double my traces, which would give me 0.030ppm per dose. 0.010ppm Fe from CSM+b 0.020ppm Fe from EDDHA Fe 6%
> 
> Edit: You're saying you can induce pinholes in the H.pinnatifida when dosing EI, are you referring to EI in general (Macro and micro) or just micros?


It most likely HAS to be from your co2 issues. Since you most likely had the leak and could not keep the drop checker a good constant due to too much surface agitation. Remember co2 is a nutrient and is the first one when inconsistent to cause most if not all symptoms.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

Saxa Tilly said:


> Since you're dosing EI and 30+ ppm K per week, there is no way in hell the leaves are dropping due to low macros. And the pinholes in the Hygro are definitely not from K deficiency.
> 
> As for what specifically causes pinholes in hydro pinnatifida, I don't have proof. Must state disclaimers such as 'n=1, anecdotal evidence, correlation-not-causation, blah, blah' but I've never been able to grow this plant without pinholes under EI. I have never dosed EI traces and low macros, but pinholes were not present and the plant got HUGE and aggressive when dosing regular 1X and HALF-Burr Burr over inert substrate, toxic levels of CO2 and high light. So I suspect that with low/zero CEC substrates, high traces can cause some sort of induced deficiency or pinholes caused by other pathologies. It seemed to thrive under low fert dosing. While most plants were half dead under Half Burr, this plant took off. I've documented more of this under my journal 'Rotala Kill Tank' over at Barr Report.


Interesting. I tossed a few twigs in my low tech shrimp about 2 weeks ago. No ferts, no co2, rather high light. And they are growing pretty good, albeit a little slower but healthier. Nice even dark green color, some bronze in the crown, no sign of deficiencies or holes. But that tank is some kind of freak, never had algae. All plants do fine. Anubias, subwassertang, A.Cardinalis, P.erectus and H.Pinnatifida. If I toss anything with algae in it, it dies pretty quick, and I've only done 4 WC the last year.

But yeah, as Clownplated said, has to be co2. Seeing more than one deficiency at a time, and all the "commotion" with co2 up and down, because of new reactor and now new reg. Altering lights, lights out for 3 days, and surface agitation adjustments are bound to make the plants a little grumpy.

Algae is less though then it was about 2 weeks ago, BBA only on wood and GSA only on older leaves of AR mini and H.pinnatifida. So If I can just stop the yellowing, pinholes and leaf shedding *just, cough cough*, I'm good :grin2:


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

Slight update.

Upped the co2 some more at last post so about 2 days ago, now have a pale green/yellow DC. And man do the plants love it! Never had pearling like this, at peak lighting it almost seems like I'm still using a diffuser, micro bubbles everywhere, the good kind. P.Erectus is growing about 0.5" per day, M.pteropus "trident" has taken off. Easily doubling in active growing leaves, and so has the S.repens. Not noticed much difference in growth in the other plants. AR mini still doing good, seem to still be affected by new GSA growth as is the H.Pinnatafida. Still holes in the Hygros, but I can't really tell if it's still advancing yet. L.Glandulosa is still a little bit twisty, but seem to grow well and no algae so not to worried about that. Shedding has DRASTICALLY reduced the last 2 days. So all in all, good improvements still far from perfect though.

Still using EI for macros except potassium (3ppm NO3, 0.5ppm PO4 daily). Potassium way above EI, using DIY ADA Brighty K which gives 3.4ppm K per day, and Full Burr on traces. Might up the traces in the near future though to double Burr.

On a side note, new reg is done. Testing and all, no internal leaks from high to low pressure side, no leaks from bottle to solenoid connections after 24hrs. So it was indeed as describe on fleabay, perfect working condition 
Gonna hook it up today, no more end of tank dumps and probably around a week of extra co2, as I would just change the bottle as soon as pressure would start to fall before. And hopefully it will give me a more stable co2 if that was ever a issue with the old reg, not sure though.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Malakian said:


> Slight update.
> 
> Upped the co2 some more at last post so about 2 days ago, now have a pale green/yellow DC. And man do the plants love it! Never had pearling like this, at peak lighting it almost seems like I'm still using a diffuser, micro bubbles everywhere, the good kind. P.Erectus is growing about 0.5" per day, M.pteropus "trident" has taken off. Easily doubling in active growing leaves, and so has the S.repens. Not noticed much difference in growth in the other plants. AR mini still doing good, seem to still be affected by new GSA growth as is the H.Pinnatafida. Still holes in the Hygros, but I can't really tell if it's still advancing yet. L.Glandulosa is still a little bit twisty, but seem to grow well and no algae so not to worried about that. Shedding has DRASTICALLY reduced the last 2 days. So all in all, good improvements still far from perfect though.
> 
> ...




Good stuff sounds like at least some of the plants are happier. You know what got me thinking was I was getting some holes in the leaves in my Amazon swords. I have like three really big ones and the new leaves would get some pin holes and was thinking it was ca or mg or even k. Then that is what made me dig into my water report to find out my ca and mg levels are really how like you saw in my thread. But you know one possibility is like I said here co2. I mean I figured my co2 was good. Good light green to yellow yellow lights on and all and would get another .2 drop through the day. But lately I have been doing a lot of water changes. I say like the last 2 weeks. My nitrates were high. And trying to figure out right levels of gh booster and Ca and mg dosing. So wonder if the issue was so many water changes always cutting way down the co2 in water. I mean I'm talking like 3 or 4 water changes a week. Could for sure also be co2 in my case with so many water changes. 

Gonna leave my water as is for at least a week and see what happens. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

clownplanted said:


> Good stuff sounds like at least some of the plants are happier. You know what got me thinking was I was getting some holes in the leaves in my Amazon swords. I have like three really big ones and the new leaves would get some pin holes and was thinking it was ca or mg or even k. Then that is what made me dig into my water report to find out my ca and mg levels are really how like you saw in my thread. But you know one possibility is like I said here co2. I mean I figured my co2 was good. Good light green to yellow yellow lights on and all and would get another .2 drop through the day. But lately I have been doing a lot of water changes. I say like the last 2 weeks. My nitrates were high. And trying to figure out right levels of gh booster and Ca and mg dosing. So wonder if the issue was so many water changes always cutting way down the co2 in water. I mean I'm talking like 3 or 4 water changes a week. Could for sure also be co2 in my case with so many water changes.
> 
> Gonna leave my water as is for at least a week and see what happens.
> 
> ...


I've been doing a lot of waterchanges too, 70-80% 2-3 times per week to try and get the better of the algae. But I'm not sure what it would do to the plants. Barr and many other say that WC just have a positive effect on plants, even when co2/lights on. Other say the complete opposite because of co2 fluctuations. I do most of my water changes after 17:00 though, when co2 and the 2x T5HO's switch off, to try to eliminate if that could be a issue.

Little picture update. AR and S.repens needs a good trim soon to get rid of the old ratty leaves. Just wanted to make sure they are as happy as can be before I hack them down. Also, pearling bonanza on the "Trident" 
Thinking of a rescape if the improvement in plant health continues, not really a fan of this one. Add some other plants like Ludwigia Super Red, possibly remove the H.Pinnatifida altogether from this tank, it is pearling good atm but it doesn't seem to happy. GSA growing wild and holes. Still gonna propagate it in the shrimp tank though, it's a gorgeous plant.
Colors are a little off, was pretty bright in the room when I took the pictures, evening sun.

PS: Don't mind the horrible tubes on the left, only temporarily to drive the cerges until I get my parts to connect it to the FX6.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

Meh, GSA is back with a vengeance. Last two days it has exploded, now even growing on the glass which it did not do before, at least not noticeably. BBA is less than ever, and doesn't seem to be spreading anymore but with all the new GSA that will probably change in a couple of days. H.pinnatifida is severely stunted, while other plants grow faster than ever. Doesn't make any sense. No changes have been made since the last update. Nothing that seem to be micro deficiency related, as plants a growing well except H.P. only the damn GSA that won't go away.

Guess I'll try to up my PO4, since people report success stopping GSA with PO4. I did try that in the past when doing full EI, up to the point of 3ppm PO4 pr day. Still had GSA so I have my doubts this time too.
Other than that I'll be trying to up my co2 even more. I did have some gasping in the platies when going higher than I am now, but they sometimes just hang out at the surface eating bio-film so I'm not 100% sure if I was just paranoid, or if it was actually the Co2 levels. Drop checkers are showing lime green when lights on, and goes to yellow after 3-4 hours of lights on.

Still doing 70%+ WC 2 times a week, pick floating leaves and the ones with a lot of algae everyday. Filter cleaning every 2 weeks. If it continues at this rate, there will be a complete restart again in the near future 
If it comes to that, I think I'll go back to trying EI. If it crashes ones again after a reset, if it even comes to that I'm not sure what more to try, maybe the MCI method of algae control and fertilization. 

This is the MCI method: Method of Controlled Imbalances Summary - Algae - Aquatic Plant Central


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Malakian said:


> Meh, GSA is back with a vengeance. Last two days it has exploded, now even growing on the glass which it did not do before, at least not noticeably. BBA is less than ever, and doesn't seem to be spreading anymore but with all the new GSA that will probably change in a couple of days. H.pinnatifida is severely stunted, while other plants grow faster than ever. Doesn't make any sense. No changes have been made since the last update. Nothing that seem to be micro deficiency related, as plants a growing well except H.P. only the damn GSA that won't go away.
> 
> Guess I'll try to up my PO4, since people report success stopping GSA with PO4. I did try that in the past when doing full EI, up to the point of 3ppm PO4 pr day. Still had GSA so I have my doubts this time too.
> Other than that I'll be trying to up my co2 even more. I did have some gasping in the platies when going higher than I am now, but they sometimes just hang out at the surface eating bio-film so I'm not 100% sure if I was just paranoid, or if it was actually the Co2 levels. Drop checkers are showing lime green when lights on, and goes to yellow after 3-4 hours of lights on.
> ...




Just a question what's the par of your lights? At substrate?

Also what is your Ca at? Can get away with very little if dosing very little trace. If too high Ca and little trace can block nutrient uptake. Learned you want to keep Ca level in proportion of trace dosing. You can have high Ca with normal EI trace dosing. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Malakian said:


> Meh, GSA is back with a vengeance. Last two days it has exploded, now even growing on the glass which it did not do before, at least not noticeably. BBA is less than ever, and doesn't seem to be spreading anymore but with all the new GSA that will probably change in a couple of days. H.pinnatifida is severely stunted, while other plants grow faster than ever. Doesn't make any sense. No changes have been made since the last update. Nothing that seem to be micro deficiency related, as plants a growing well except H.P. only the damn GSA that won't go away.
> 
> Guess I'll try to up my PO4, since people report success stopping GSA with PO4. I did try that in the past when doing full EI, up to the point of 3ppm PO4 pr day. Still had GSA so I have my doubts this time too.
> Other than that I'll be trying to up my co2 even more. I did have some gasping in the platies when going higher than I am now, but they sometimes just hang out at the surface eating bio-film so I'm not 100% sure if I was just paranoid, or if it was actually the Co2 levels. Drop checkers are showing lime green when lights on, and goes to yellow after 3-4 hours of lights on.
> ...



MCI is bs, I wouldnt waste my time.

CO2 fluctuations with water changes applies to low tech tanks that dont have CO2 injection.

High tech - Plants love water changes, and algae hates them.

*But it's important to understand* how frequent large water changes affect nutrient levels. You may be running low on P (and other stuff) doing 70% 2x week - if your dosing the same ppm as with once a week wc, or with smaller volume water changes. 

The total ppm content of a nutrient(s) in the water column is really what we're dealing with when it comes to having too much or not enough of something. How it gets there in single doses is irrelevant. 

For example, dosing 5 ppm 3x week, with a 1x week 50% water change, the total in the water column will reach a peak level of 30 ppm. (this assumes zero plant uptake, but it's important to see what happens) It is mathematically impossible for it to be any higher. 

Once the levels hit their ceiling, the tank is running between 20 and 30 ppm all the time.

30 ppm is the peak concentration, -50% = 15 ppm, + 5 ppm post water change dose = 20 ppm. Two more doses before the next wc = 30 ppm. Rinse and repeat

But when you start doing more frequent water changes, or a larger volume, everything above changes drastically.

What matters is the total ppms dosed between water changes. It doesnt matter if it's 2 ppm 6x or 12 ppm 1x.

With all that in mind, you can see how dosing 1 ppm of PO4 3x between 50% water changes might be plenty, but that's totally different than only one or two doses between 70% water changes,  when it comes to whats actually in the water column.

That is why you might be extremely low on P now doing 2-3 70% water changes per week. How much P are you dosing between water changes?

Barr does a couple 70-80% water changes per week. But he also doses whopping amounts once or twice in between, like 15 ppm KNO3, 3 ppm PO4, etc.

He's almost resetting the entire water column with every water change, and dosing back to reach the target for the TOTAL concentration.


Play around with the accumulation calculator on rotalabutterfly

https://rotalabutterfly.com/accumulation-calculator.php

It'll show you a nice little graph of exactly what happens with various doses and water change volumes/frequency.


So once again, large frequent water changes are GREAT! But it's important to understand the affect it has on the overall nutrient levels, and adjust accordingly.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

burr740 said:


> MCI is bs, I wouldnt waste my time.
> 
> CO2 fluctuations with water changes applies to low tech tanks that dont have CO2 injection.
> 
> ...


You my friend deserve an award for this post. I do the same thing especially if I do a very large WC like 80% here and there to really reset everything. Then the next day I ensure that my nitrate is at least 10ppm and Phosphorus 1ppm. I always do macros day after large wc to get those levels back up where they need to be. First I will test and see where they are at and dose based on levels. Also ensure my Ca and Mg are where they need to be immediately after wc getting them back to ensure no low levels there as well. I have to add gh booster due to my super low levels. Again I am dosing nearly EI levels so need to ensure my levels are decent for Ca and Mg. If I was dosing low levels of micros then ca and mg could be low as well.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

clownplanted said:


> Just a question what's the par of your lights? At substrate?
> 
> Also what is your Ca at? Can get away with very little if dosing very little trace. If too high Ca and little trace can block nutrient uptake. Learned you want to keep Ca level in proportion of trace dosing. You can have high Ca with normal EI trace dosing.
> 
> ...


Par wise, I can't be 100% sure since I sold my PAR meter before I got the 24/7+. But my old 2xt5ho at 26" above substrate was 52 par, and the 24/7+ according to charts should give me around 42 par at 18", so roughly 100 par at substrate when lights peak. T5 are only on 2 hours before the 24/7 cycle peaks par wise, and 2 hours after, when the 24/7 is at peak par T5's shut off, and come on again when the peak (which is only 2-3 hours) are over.

Ca I have never measured, but according to the water report it's at 22 ppm, Mg is at 0.24 ppm. When I do water changes I add 10 ppm Mg and 10 ppm Ca (just to be sure, I don't trust the report 100%) to the water volume changed. So if the report is correct that should give me 32 ppm Ca and 10.24 ppm Mg.




burr740 said:


> MCI is bs, I wouldnt waste my time.
> 
> CO2 fluctuations with water changes applies to low tech tanks that dont have CO2 injection.
> 
> ...


We'll screw the MCI then >

And nice to know I can hurt anything with water changes. Was never really sure, but I trust your knowledge. 

Haven't thought about the Water change diluting the nutrients, silly mistake. I have been dosing 3ppm No3, 0.5ppm Po4 0.015ppm Fe and 5.2ppm K daily, though the last 3 days, probably doesn't matter much in such a sort time span, I've upped my PO4 to 1ppm daily. Maybe I should just switch to one dose weekly after water change, like I do with my Ca and Mg. In order to reset what ever has accumulated in the water column over the week, yet maintaining a steady nutrient level easier. Any targets you'd recommend? 

If I were to use my old dosing routine, it would be 18ppm NO3 3ppm PO4 0.09ppm Fe and 31.2ppm K. Sound reasonable? Other than K is WAAAY over EI, the reason for that is I use DIY Ada Brigthy K which gives 3.4ppm K per dose +0.23dKH. Only reason I want to use this is for its KH increase as my water is 2KH from the tap, and with the new soil it will go under 1KH and since K never hurt anything, even in extremely high doses I haven't given it much thought. Maybe I should just skip that too, not mixing in different Fert regimes.

Sorry for a million questions, but got me thinking about my dosing (once again  ) and maybe daily isn't any better than say 1-2-3x pr week. I think I got a bit stuck on the Fe part not being available for very long mostly the case with ferrous gluconate if I understand it correctly, but both my Fe sources are DTPA or EDDHA chelates so I would think they should last out the week, especially the EDDHA.

Edit: On second thought, If I were to go the 1x weekly/at waterchange route, the Brigthy K would probably do more damage than good considering the KH swing it would induce.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Malakian said:


> Par wise, I can't be 100% sure since I sold my PAR meter before I got the 24/7+. But my old 2xt5ho at 26" above substrate was 52 par, and the 24/7+ according to charts should give me around 42 par at 18", so roughly 100 par at substrate when lights peak. T5 are only on 2 hours before the 24/7 cycle peaks par wise, and 2 hours after, when the 24/7 is at peak par T5's shut off, and come on again when the peak (which is only 2-3 hours) are over.
> 
> Ca I have never measured, but according to the water report it's at 22 ppm, Mg is at 0.24 ppm. When I do water changes I add 10 ppm Mg and 10 ppm Ca (just to be sure, I don't trust the report 100%) to the water volume changed. So if the report is correct that should give me 32 ppm Ca and 10.24 ppm Mg.
> 
> ...


So your 24/7 plus is in 24/7 mode? You do realize that the 24/7 is only at 100% par/light peak for about 30 minutes? You only get 80% or more of max light/par for about 5 hours, 100% for about 30 minutes of that, all other times are significantly lower. In 24/7 mode it's really meant for low tech setups with minimal ferts and such. And could be a bit of a problem with the constant par fluctuations, less par(fuel for plants) means less nutrient intake and photosynthesis during those lower light times. Could be these fluctuations making some plants un-happy and contribute to algae? These constant gas pedal and brake flucuations stop lights and such cannot be good for plants. They want more consistent reliable light time. Some plants will be more sensitive to these fluctuations than others which is why some show problems and not others. 

What I do with my 24/7 and other beamswork light is I leave my 24/7 on max light for most of the time. Only run in 24/7 from 6am-8am and again from 6pm-9pm. Those times light is just too low to help plants at all and can still enjoy sunrise and sunset. at the 8am time my plants have been ferted and max lights are on till 6pm(Finnex 24/7 on max and Beamswork on). then beamswork light off and finnex 24/7 set back in 24/7 mode at 6pm time. Again this time light too little to help plants. Your talking about 10% total par during these times. This is my plants nighty nighty time. 

This par graph taken at 7.5" from light to sensor to get better percent idea of par you are getting at each time. 


The below link is the par data I did with the 48" light done on max setting.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...24-7-planted-par-lux-kelvin-pur-readings.html


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

clownplanted said:


> So your 24/7 plus is in 24/7 mode? You do realize that the 24/7 is only at 100% par/light peak for about 30 minutes? You only get 80% or more of max light/par for about 5 hours, 100% for about 30 minutes of that, all other times are significantly lower. In 24/7 mode it's really meant for low tech setups with minimal ferts and such. And could be a bit of a problem with the constant par fluctuations, less par(fuel for plants) means less nutrient intake and photosynthesis during those lower light times. Could be these fluctuations making some plants un-happy and contribute to algae? These constant gas pedal and brake flucuations stop lights and such cannot be good for plants. They want more consistent reliable light time. Some plants will be more sensitive to these fluctuations than others which is why some show problems and not others.
> 
> What I do with my 24/7 and other beamswork light is I leave my 24/7 on max light for most of the time. Only run in 24/7 from 6am-8am and again from 6pm-9pm. Those times light is just too low to help plants at all and can still enjoy sunrise and sunset. at the 8am time my plants have been ferted and max lights are on till 6pm(Finnex 24/7 on max and Beamswork on). then beamswork light off and finnex 24/7 set back in 24/7 mode at 6pm time. Again this time light too little to help plants. Your talking about 10% total par during these times. This is my plants nighty nighty time.
> 
> ...


Yes, I do realize that. I consider 12:00 - 15:00 peak light, sure its not 100% all that time, but over 80%. I thought plants reacted to light difference quickly and algae did not, the one thing plants do better at. I might be wrong though. From 10:00 to 16:00 i'm never under 40 par, but maybe I should just leave the T5HO on for longer, like 6-7 hours continuously to add to the 24/7 instead of switching it off and on. I really do like the 24/7 mode and the dusk/dawn effect it brings, and the fact that you have pretty good viewing light 24/7 without being enough to "fuel" anything. Switching from Max to 24/7 mode would require manually change the settings 2 times a day or use some kind of Arduino setup, not really what I want.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Malakian said:


> Yes, I do realize that. I consider 12:00 - 15:00 peak light, sure its not 100% all that time, but over 80%. I thought plants reacted to light difference quickly and algae did not, the one thing plants do better at. I might be wrong though. From 10:00 to 16:00 i'm never under 40 par, but maybe I should just leave the T5HO on for longer, like 6-7 hours continuously to add to the 24/7 instead of switching it off and on. I really do like the 24/7 mode and the dusk/dawn effect it brings, and the fact that you have pretty good viewing light 24/7 without being enough to "fuel" anything. Switching from Max to 24/7 mode would require manually change the settings 2 times a day or use some kind of Arduino setup, not really what I want.


Plants and Algae are eternal enemies and in constant battle for the resources. There have been some studies that show that it MAY be possible that plants put off a chemical that wards off algae if the conditions are right and not lacking/low in something or weak due to conditions. And the same for Algae that it can sense when the plants are weaker and are able to do the same and why they can start to thrive with an imbalance. Again its not fact but think about it. Most of us dose EI and there is ALWAYS more than enough nutrients and light for both plants and algae to thrive so why do they not at the same time when plants are in optimal conditions? There is enough for algae to always be able to thrive but yet they do not when plants are 100%. Its not like the plants are eating the nutrients so fast that algae gets none and taking up all the light. Again not proven but may explain in my mind why its one or the other and algae is not always there except when something is out of balance. If it were me this is what I would and well I do as I explained in my last post. I have nearly zero algae and run my lights max for 10 hours a day at between 100-120 par at sub. Those 10 hours are a constant same light intensity. Really its just a total of 4 buttons you need to push. Not saying you need near this par but feel a more consistent amount would be better IMO. For me I really do not mind the button pushing as I work from home so am here anyway but as you said you do mind. :wink2:

if however you do push the light intensity and get more algae than now than something else is for sure out of balance. So your call but just my observations.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

I set up the T5 for 8 hours on. Did some trimming and removing of some plants to make a little room. The Hygro compacts was starting to choke each other out.
I also got the PH meter so have been playing with the co2. I am able to get 1 point PH drop in about 50 min, and a total of 1.35-1.4 ph drop after 2-3 hours on. That's from measuring the tank water after 36hr in a glass to off-gas. So I know the Co2 is good, at least the amount, might have to play a bit with flow. Also stopped the brighty K couple of days ago.

I also decided to go with dosing the macros onces a week/after WC. Gonna dose 25ppm NO3 and 5ppm PO4, keep dosing micro/Fe everyday. Not quite sure how to dose for additional waterchanges, if I decide to do more than the 50% weekly. The Accumulation Calculator is giving me weird graphs/numbers when I ask for Dose: 25ppm Dose Freq: 7 days, WC Freq: 7 Days Dose: After WC. The graph then shows 12.5ppm one day after the dosing, as if I where to do an additional 50% WC the day after dosing. No idea why.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

You're right, the second high point is what it should be after the first water change + dose.

I think the trough point should go straight back up, and the little dots should go along the top at the peak level, because it's peaked all week (not counting potential plant use)

The first line of dots (days) is wrong. It should start at 0 and go straight to 25, then six dots across the peak, then down and right back up on wc day


@fablau can you chime in on this?


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Malakian said:


> I set up the T5 for 8 hours on. Did some trimming and removing of some plants to make a little room. The Hygro compacts was starting to choke each other out.
> 
> I also got the PH meter so have been playing with the co2. I am able to get 1 point PH drop in about 50 min, and a total of 1.35-1.4 ph drop after 2-3 hours on. That's from measuring the tank water after 36hr in a glass to off-gas. So I know the Co2 is good, at least the amount, might have to play a bit with flow. Also stopped the brighty K couple of days ago.
> 
> ...




I'm also going to dose macros just once a week. After wc. Then check levels mid and later in week. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

burr740 said:


> You're right, the second high point is what it should be after the first water change + dose.
> 
> I think the trough point should go straight back up, and the little dots should go along the top at the peak level, because it's peaked all week (not counting potential plant use)
> 
> ...


Then it's not just me, phew. Almost lost my sanity trying to make sense of it.

Think I'm going to just add 25ppm NO3 and 5ppm PO3 to the volume changed If I do additional WC. Shouldn't be a issue.





clownplanted said:


> I'm also going to dose macros just once a week. After wc. Then check levels mid and later in week.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, it just seems easier. And then in my case, I know for sure something iffy is up if I still get GSA at 5ppm PO4. If it solves the GSA, I should be able to see improvements immediately after WC, then gradually coming back if the plants manage to use up the PO4 before the end of the week.

As a side note, I have been adding 1ppm PO4 every day the last week. Today I checked and it was reading 0.5ppm after about 4 hours after the daily dose. So either the plants are just shoveling in the PO4, or the substrate is adsorbing some. I'm leaning towards the substrate as the Nitrates aren't being consumed at a high rate, not any measurable amounts at least. I guess the plants could get most of their nitrogen from the relatively new aquasoil, and if the soil doesn't have very much PO4 this could happen. So I bumped it up to 5ppm PO4, and test again tomorrow. If its under 4ppm, something has to be interfering. Can't see plants up-taking that much. Starting the new dosing schedule tomorrow also, since thats WC day. 

Plants are still pearling like crazy, generally looks pretty healthy and happy. H.pinnatifida is the exception. If just the GSA could frick off. Still tons better than the BBA farm I had before though, BBA is the worst! And the BBA that is left looks scruffy and green/gray pale color. Before it was full and lush, and more of a black/very dark red color. So there is still some hope for the tides to turn. The M.Pteropus "trident" has really started to grow fast, I thought this was supposed to be a slow grower :icon_lol: I noticed this after stopping Excel about a month ago, and it just keeps growing faster. When I dosed excel it would grow pretty damn slow and throw out a bunch of plantlets, guess it's not very fond of Excel either like some other plants.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Malakian said:


> Then it's not just me, phew. Almost lost my sanity trying to make sense of it.
> 
> Think I'm going to just add 25ppm NO3 and 5ppm PO3 to the volume changed If I do additional WC. Shouldn't be a issue.
> 
> ...




Yup I know it goes against EI should not be having to test water but I do nearly everyday still trying to get dosing down. Do not want to just keep throwing ferts in there if they are not being consumed. What I was doing first couple weeks of dosing EI and nitrates and phosphates were sky high so know micros also had to be high. So now like you I will full dose macros after wc and continue to monitor uptake and dose based on that. Now I'm at 30ppm nitrate and 3ppm phosphate. Will check again in 3 days to check the levels again. Then once I get a feel for uptake will not need to check as often. Just do not want to keep dosing full levels just because EI says to. They just build up in that case and do not like that. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

clownplanted said:


> Yup I know it goes against EI should not be having to test water but I do nearly everyday still trying to get dosing down. Do not want to just keep throwing ferts in there if they are not being consumed. What I was doing first couple weeks of dosing EI and nitrates and phosphates were sky high so know micros also had to be high. So now like you I will full dose macros after wc and continue to monitor uptake and dose based on that. Now I'm at 30ppm nitrate and 2ppm phosphate. Will check again in 3 days to check the levels again. Then once I get a feel for uptake will not need to check as often. Just do not want to keep dosing full levels just because EI says to. They just build up in that case and do not like that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Indeed, before when I was dosing "regular" EI 3x times a week I didn't really test to start with. Then when I finally got some testkits my Nitrates where off the chart (blood red. API test kit) and phosphates 10ppm+.

I'm have no problem with 20-50ppm NO3 and 2-5ppm PO4, anything over that just seems way excessive.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Malakian said:


> I set up the T5 for 8 hours on. Did some trimming and removing of some plants to make a little room. The Hygro compacts was starting to choke each other out.
> I also got the PH meter so have been playing with the co2. I am able to get 1 point PH drop in about 50 min, and a total of 1.35-1.4 ph drop after 2-3 hours on. That's from measuring the tank water after 36hr in a glass to off-gas. So I know the Co2 is good, at least the amount, might have to play a bit with flow. Also stopped the brighty K couple of days ago.
> 
> I also decided to go with dosing the macros onces a week/after WC. Gonna dose 25ppm NO3 and 5ppm PO4, keep dosing micro/Fe everyday. Not quite sure how to dose for additional waterchanges, if I decide to do more than the 50% weekly. The Accumulation Calculator is giving me weird graphs/numbers when I ask for Dose: 25ppm Dose Freq: 7 days, WC Freq: 7 Days Dose: After WC. The graph then shows 12.5ppm one day after the dosing, as if I where to do an additional 50% WC the day after dosing. No idea why.


Did you notice a reduction in algae when you changed the light frequency/intensity? Just curious.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

clownplanted said:


> Did you notice a reduction in algae when you changed the light frequency/intensity? Just curious.


Too early to tell really, see some more GSA but can't say for sure if it's growing faster or not.


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

burr740 said:


> You're right, the second high point is what it should be after the first water change + dose.
> 
> I think the trough point should go straight back up, and the little dots should go along the top at the peak level, because it's peaked all week (not counting potential plant use)
> 
> ...




It looks ok to me, please, have a look at the attached screenshot:


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

fablau said:


> It looks ok to me, please, have a look at the attached screenshot:


Hey fab, thanks for checking!

The problem is having the 6 dots (days) go along the trough. They should go along the peak. Because starting from day one, the entire week is at the peak level until the next water change, not the trough level. 

The way it is now would be correct if a person was dosing right BEFORE the water change, not after it.

Dosing once a week right after the water change, the trough level never really exists, other than being a reference value for calculation.

Also the 6 dots from zero to the first 25 ppm dose are redundant.

It should look like this.


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

clownplanted said:


> Did you notice a reduction in algae when you changed the light frequency/intensity? Just curious.


Definitively increase in GSA when increasing light intensity. I'm gonna try raising the T5HO some more, but still leave them on for 8 hours.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

burr740 said:


> Hey fab, thanks for checking!
> 
> The problem is having the 6 dots (days) go along the trough. They should go along the peak. Because starting from day one, the entire week is at the peak level until the next water change, not the trough level.
> 
> ...


I see your point burr and agree. They seem to be doing the calculations correctly but not displaying them accurately. You can see in my calculator the peak is the same which means the numbers are correct. It appears to me that ROTALA's chart is treating each change as a full day. In reality, the water change and dose essentially occur instantaneously. Therefore, you should see a straight line and equal peaks and troughs.


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

Oh well, you are absolutely right guys! I will fix the graph as soon as possible.

Thank you both!


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

I started the new dosing routine today. Also doubled my micros, now at 0.015ppm FE from EDDHA 6% and 0.015ppm for CSM+B.
Did a major clean at WC today. So will see how it fairs now. Easier to judge new GSA too now that everything is clean.
Forgot to do a PO4 test to see what the levels where today, oh well.

@fablau Nice to get the Accumulation calculator sorted, I use this all the time. Keep up the good work!

@Zorfox I tried downloading your calculator a couple of weeks ago, but I can't get it to work on my Win7 64Bit PC. Even with the default settings, when I press calculate I get " 7.5 is not a valid floating point value". And get the same error if I try to change anything, just another float point value. I have Version 1.0.7 of your calculator if that matters. Any idea whats up with that?


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

Malakian said:


> I tried downloading your calculator a couple of weeks ago, but I can't get it to work on my Win7 64Bit PC. Even with the default settings, when I press calculate I get " 7.5 is not a valid floating point value". And get the same error if I try to change anything, just another float point value. I have Version 1.0.7 of your calculator if that matters. Any idea whats up with that?


That's odd. Sorry about that. I wrote it in Win 7 32 bit. I then upgraded to Win 10 64 bit without issues. Can you tell me what parameters you're entering so I can try and get the same error? That's a common error. I typically try to capture and deal with before you see it.


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

Hey guys, I have updated the accumulation calculator, and added a yellow band to show water change day (pretty handy)

Here are the modifications I have done:

1. The ppms added on the chart are shown right from the beginning, assuming "day 0" is the first water change day and the first dosing day (if you choose the option to "dose" on water change day of course)

2. Differently by Zorfox's calculator, the "Days frequency" start from 1 and not from 0. So, if you set "1 day" means every day, "2 days" means every other day, etc. I thought that doing that is more intuitive.

Please, test it and let me know if you find anything wrong with it.

Special thank for Zorfox, I have his calculator and helped me a LOT in tweaking the chart on rotalabutterfly.com

Thank you all!

Here it is:
https://rotalabutterfly.com/accumulation-calculator.php


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

fablau said:


> Please, test it and let me know if you find anything wrong with it.


Something is still out of whack, fab. :red_mouth

For one thing it should peak at 50, not 100, which is mathematically impossible.

Also why isnt there a drop from the first couple of water changes, and why doesnt every drop reduce 50%?

And the horizontal dots representing the days should go along the peak, not the trough











Thehe other picture where I drew the red lines in MS Paint, it should look exactly like that. 

Probably something simple like a wrong value in the wrong place


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

Ouch Burr! For some reason the program wasn't updated correctly, please, try again now.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

fablau said:


> Ouch Burr! For some reason the program wasn't updated correctly, please, try again now.


It's right now. Thanks fab!


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

burr740 said:


> It's right now. Thanks fab!




Great! Thank you Burr for the valuable feedback!

Let's continue the conversation here....


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

Update time.

I upped my Micros to 0.03 ppm Fe per day. 1/3rd from EDDHA and 2/3rd from CSM+B. Less leaf dropping,yellowing and holes, so it might seem like I had a manganese deficiency if I where to guess. Other than that I have just been trying to optimize my co2 as much as possible.
At the moment the Cerges reactor is setup with a Atomic diffuser inside. It does let some TINY bubbles through, but stand more than 1 feet away from the tank and you can't see them. Non of that 7-up effect. The plus side though is I can drop the PH by 1.2 in about 40 min. HUUUUGE difference in efficiency from before. It would take me almost 3 hours to drop 1.2 with no mods. And it's a lot more stable. It drops to 6.18-6.15 after 1 hour on before lights, then slowly drop down to around 6.12-6.08 in the remaining 6 hours of lights on. Before it would just constantly go down when light where on, never reaching a stable "point".

From that point, I have been adjusting my BPS to keep the dropchecker in the light green/yellow range (around 1.4 PH drop). Plants seem to be slowly acclimatising to higher Co2 levels. First couple of days after the "mod" of the reactor the DC stayed a pretty dark yellow all the time. A week later and it was in the lime range again, adjusted up to yellow again. As of today, it was green again at lights on, so adjusted up a tad more. So the plants seem to actually be using more and more of the co2 as they acclimatize.

And I have finally been able to "saturate" whatever is leaching my PO4. Now I am able to keep a steady 2-3 ppm over the week without much additional dosing other than at WC. GSA seem to be slowly diying back but I'm not sure if thats from the PO4 or Excel spot treating I've been doing because of staghorn.

So all in all, progress but still issues. Solve one issue, another arises seem to be the trend here. I have been able to get rid of the BBA, and now seems like also the GSA. Hopefully I will win against staghorn too, then we'll see what happens. Probably gonna get Clado, dust algea or something xD


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