# Bubble counter fluid evaporation?



## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Water has to be exposed to air to evaporate no? 
Check to see the BC is tight and sealed good on both ends, where it mounts to needle valve and top side to tubing.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks Craig. I've done that with soapy water. No bubbles.

On one hand, I'm wondering if water can evaporate into CO2 - as in the CO2 passing through it takes a bit of water vapor with it. Pass enough CO2 - and I'm passing a lot - over time, it could pull all the water away with it, leaving you with an "empty" bubble counter - one that is actually filled with CO2.

That said, I've not checked the joints for months. I'll go repeat the soapy water routine...


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

No detectable leaks. Just checked.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

If it's a slow disappearance of the water then it's evaporation. I experience the same thing.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks Rex!

My bubble counter is plastic, with a brass cap. Replacing that water every month or two means that it's only a matter of time before I inadvertently strip the plastic threads. So I'd love to stop having to replace it.

Anybody know if bubble counter solution avoids this problem, by not evaporating?


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## swylie (May 10, 2007)

scolley said:


> On one hand, I'm wondering if water can evaporate into CO2 - as in the CO2 passing through it takes a bit of water vapor with it. Pass enough CO2 - and I'm passing a lot - over time, it could pull all the water away with it, leaving you with an "empty" bubble counter - one that is actually filled with CO2.


Of _course_ the flow of CO2 is evaporating water. The partial pressure of H2O in the gas stream is zero, the vapor pressure of water in the liquid phase is above zero. That drives the movement of liquid water into gaseous water, which gets carried into your tank. If you want bubble counter fluid, then pick some liquid that's non-volatile. Mineral oil? Best thing I can think of off the top of my head.

BTW, if you had DIY CO2, then the gas stream would already be saturated with water, and the water in the gas stream would be at equilibrium with the water in the bubble counter. No evaporation.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

swylie said:


> Of _course_ the flow of CO2 is evaporating water. The partial pressure of H2O in the gas stream is zero, the vapor pressure of water in the liquid phase is above zero. That drives the movement of liquid water into gaseous water, which gets carried into your tank.


That's easy for you to say. :icon_redf 

Thanks for an informed explanation!

And thanks for the mineral oil suggestion. But I'd prefer to use a proven solution - caution seems to pay dividends in this hobby.

Anyone use anything other than water in their bubble counters?


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

I also use mineral oil. I figured I'd buy a huge bottle just in case. Brought it home and filled up my 6 bubble counters. It's been about 6 months and I haven't had to re-fill the bubble counters except for the occasional spill caused by myself.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

epicfish said:


> I also use mineral oil. I figured I'd buy a huge bottle just in case. Brought it home and filled up my 6 bubble counters. It's been about 6 months and I haven't had to re-fill the bubble counters except for the occasional spill caused by myself.


Cool! Thanks. That's good enough for me.

It's off to the drug store for some mineral oil! Thanks everyone. This is a big help to me!


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Oh, I forgot to mention that when you're adjusting the bubble rate, try not to crank up the needle valve too high. It'll make bubbles in the mineral oil fluid that takes a few minutes to pop since the fluid is so viscous...otherwise, it's great to use in my opinion.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Uh oh! That's a really important caveat!

My bubbles are maybe... 8-12 a second? You can't quite count at that speed.

So I assume mineral oil is NOT going to work at that rate?


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Mineral oil slows the bubbles down quite a bit....but I think 8-12 bps might be too fast for mineral oil. I'll have to check it later and let you know if you want me to.

8-12 bps? Must be going to a bunch of tanks...or a really large tank. No wonder you have so much evaporation!


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## dogg76 (Jan 31, 2004)

I over filled my bc once with mineral oil and ended up with a oil slick on the water surface....Just keep that in mind. I still use mineral oil, but I started using a homemade bc out of a 20oz bottle so I don't have to worry about it getting in the tank again...


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

It's probably closer to 8 bps. Though it is a 180g. And I keep the CO2 pretty well up there. And my auto refill process at night lowers the water line for a number of hours, so I get a lot of out gassing from the splashing of the returns.

But yeah, that fast bubble rate is really at the root of my problem. When I had a 20g, I rarely had to refill the bubble counter. With my 75g it was more frequent. And now with this 180g, and the splashing at night, I have to refill it way too frequently. That's why I'm looking for a solution.


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## swylie (May 10, 2007)

Build a bubble counter that holds a lot more water?


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## tropicalfish (Mar 29, 2007)

swylie said:


> Build a bubble counter that holds a lot more water?


Smart Alec answer? :icon_roll


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## swylie (May 10, 2007)

tropicalfish said:


> Smart Alec answer? :icon_roll


Maybe, but I'm still totally serious. If he builds a bigger bubble counter, he'll have to refill it less often.


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## Khandurian (Oct 25, 2006)

I use Glycerin from Wally World. I have a pretty high bubble rate and do not notice it going anywhere. 

I fill the counter just under 1/2 and have no problem.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

swylie said:


> Build a bubble counter that holds a lot more water?


Good idea. Can you tell me how to build a bubble counter? Or point me to someone that has done that?

If not, glycerin sounds like a great solution. Thanks Khandurian!


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## tropicalfish (Mar 29, 2007)

You could try the glass jar style bubble counter.


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

Scolley, 
I was having the same problem with the Milwaukee built in bubble counter running ~6 BPS.
Straight Glycerin didn't work because it was so thick I could count 3 bubbles in the counter at the same time, turned the bubble counter into merangue/frothed milk. 
Gylercine & water mix (fleet enema has this mix ), and it worked for a while, then the water disappeared, and see above. 
Mineral oil worked great. Slowed it down did not evaporate, did not make froth. 

But what I think the problem was for me was were where the plastic threads of the bubble counter screw onto the needle valve. It's under water so you don't get bubbles from a soap test, but you will very, very slowly loose water, and it will evaporate, leaving no trace. I added a wrap or 2 of Teflon tape to the needle valve (too much and you can crack the bubble counter), then put on the bubble counter. 
That worked for me until I did the ghetto style after adding a manifold, and now, no issues with water.


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## crazy loaches (Sep 29, 2006)

I just switched to mineral oil and seems to work well. At the ~3bps rate I didnt notice much of a change (maybe a few bubles per 10 seconds less). But I too face a problem with the 240g I am setting up - especially since I'll be using overflows and a >2000gph pump. Even dividing by two I will probably have a bubble rate more than can be readily counted. So I am going to try to make extra tall counters, fill with mineral oil, and shoot 10 seconds of video with my digicam and slow down the frame rate to count the bubbles more accurately. At least thats the plan, we'll see if it works.


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## swylie (May 10, 2007)

crazy loaches said:


> So I am going to try to make extra tall counters, fill with mineral oil, and shoot 10 seconds of video with my digicam and slow down the frame rate to count the bubbles more accurately. At least thats the plan, we'll see if it works.


You could attach a balloon or plastic bag and measure (estimate) the volume of gas per time.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Build a Bubble Counter

Scroll down about 2/3 of the page. Its very easy and can be used with a 1L or 2L bottle--Whatever floats Your boat.....

HTH


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

crazy loaches said:


> But I too face a problem with the 240g I am setting up - especially since I'll be using overflows and a >2000gph pump. Even dividing by two I will probably have a bubble rate more than can be readily counted. So I am going to try to make extra tall counters, fill with mineral oil, and shoot 10 seconds of video with my digicam and slow down the frame rate to count the bubbles more accurately. At least thats the plan, we'll see if it works.


Why bother? I may be hijacking my own thread here... but who cares about the bubble count in such a big tank? It's a lot. And either you have a leak or you don't, and either you have enough CO2 or you don't. At the end of the day, the bubble rate is just a byproduct.

I'm only interested in seeing the bubbles, just so I can know it's working, and that the rate is about what i expect to be seeing. But the actual number of bubbles/sec... I could really care less.

But it is encouraging to know your mineral oil is working! I went out and bought some myself!


tazcrash69 - thanks for the tip on the teflon tape. I feel kind of stupid not thinking of that myself, but it makes a world of sense. I COULD have a hard to detect leak, and that tape might make all the difference. Thanks.


Khandurian - thanks for the confirm. Seems like the way to go - the solution I was looking for! And best of all, you can get it cheap locally!


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## crazy loaches (Sep 29, 2006)

scolley said:


> Why bother? I may be hijacking my own thread here... but who cares about the bubble count in such a big tank? It's a lot. And either you have a leak or you don't, and either you have enough CO2 or you don't. At the end of the day, the bubble rate is just a byproduct.
> 
> I'm only interested in seeing the bubbles, just so I can know it's working, and that the rate is about what i expect to be seeing. But the actual number of bubbles/sec... I could really care less.


To be honest it is unnecessary - I mean I plan on running a controller anyhow so I dont need a specific bubble rate (well at least on that tank - I might need to know on the controllerless 150g). Like you I just want to see its working. The extra work I'll do is just to know since I am curious, and so I will actually have an answer when the inevitable "how many bps do you run" question is asked a million times! lol.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

crazy loaches said:


> The extra work I'll do is just to know since I am curious, and so I will actually have an answer when the inevitable "how many bps do you run" question is asked a million times! lol.


Understood. And if you don't want to do the work, the answer to the question is the same anyway "A lot!" :hihi:


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## Darth Sensei (Apr 24, 2007)

crazy loaches said:


> To be honest it is unnecessary - I mean I plan on running a controller anyhow so I dont need a specific bubble rate (well at least on that tank - I might need to know on the controllerless 150g). Like you I just want to see its working. The extra work I'll do is just to know since I am curious, and so I will actually have an answer when the inevitable "how many bps do you run" question is asked a million times! lol.


Actually, it is necessary. For the past several weeks my fish have been in poor health. They contracted Ich and I couldn't seem to get them healthy. I realized today that my ph controller (the electric solenoid switch) is broken and they have been receiving full CO2 every night. I suspect the wild ph swings are what have kept their immune systems weakened. 

So, I think bubble counters are necessary or at least a way to actually tell that your CO2 injection is in fact injecting.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

I actually highly doubt that any pH swings caused by CO2 caused the Ich. Fish don't notice pH changes from CO2. The hardness and TDS remain the same so to the fish the water has not changed.


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

could you use vegetable oil?


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Darth Sensei said:


> Actually, it is necessary.


Sorry, I should have been more clear... I thought if the post was read in context it would have been. But I suppose not.

My point was intended to emphasize that on a large tank, were bubble counts are way to fast to actually count, they have reduced value. The only real value they have (in bag tanks with high bubble rates) is just as an indicator that things seems to be working. But frankly, there are alternative method to determine that. Though a bubble counter seems to be the easiest.

And BTW - I couldn't find mineral oil (didn't know where to look), and compromised on baby oil. I just used a very little, just enough to see some bubbles, but not enough to risk it bubbling into my tubing. It seems to work GREAT!

Thanks for the help!


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## swylie (May 10, 2007)

scolley said:


> And BTW - I couldn't find mineral oil (didn't know where to look), and compromised on baby oil.


Same thing, unless yours has perfume.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

I thought that mineral oil came from minerals and baby oil came from babies. Now you're trying to tell me they are the same thing?


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

danepatrick said:


> could you use vegetable oil?


Might be fine, I'm not sure, but...I personally wouldn't use anything that can go rancid.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

tazcrash69 said:


> But what I think the problem was for me was were where the plastic threads of the bubble counter screw onto the needle valve. It's under water so you don't get bubbles from a soap test, but you will very, very slowly loose water, and it will evaporate, leaving no trace. I added a wrap or 2 of Teflon tape to the needle valve (too much and you can crack the bubble counter), then put on the bubble counter.


I noticed the same with my Milwaukee bubble counter. Seemed like they forgot to us a some sort of gasket, since the plastic and brass doesn't really provide a tight fit. So I just added a tiny O-ring, problem solved! No need to overtighten it and risk cracking the bc.


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## CapeCodVivarium (Dec 23, 2006)

No experience with it but .......

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~idProduct~kl3311.html


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Rex Grigg said:


> I thought that mineral oil came from minerals and baby oil came from babies.


ROTFL!!!!



Wasserpest said:


> I noticed the same with my Milwaukee bubble counter. Seemed like they forgot to us a some sort of gasket, since the plastic and brass doesn't really provide a tight fit. So I just added a tiny O-ring, problem solved! No need to overtighten it and risk cracking the bc.


I've got the same problem... any advice on where to find such a tiny o-ring?



CapeCodVivarium said:


> No experience with it but .......
> 
> http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~idProduct~kl3311.html


Thanks. But the baby oil seems to be working great. And it's cheaper, and available locally. Good stuff apparently!


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

scolley said:


> I've got the same problem... any advice on where to find such a tiny o-ring?


Try a hobby store that sells RC equipment, They use them in the oil filled shocks , or try Teflon tape


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

scolley said:


> I've got the same problem... any advice on where to find such a tiny o-ring?


Walter is probably right... I have this weird thing where I save every O-ring that I come across (spares, mechanics shops, city streets) and I had one that was just right for that. Not helpful, I know... :redface:


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks Walter. I'll try hobby shops. And thanks WP - at the end of the day, I suspect o-rings are the ideal solution. I'll go find one, and use Teflon tape until it arrives.:thumbsup:


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## FacePlanted (Jul 27, 2007)

That's weird. My milwaukee reg CAME WITH an o-ring that fits under the brass lid that the brass ring screws over/onto. It sits right on the rim of the top of the bubble counter. It does seem that this o-ring is necessary, as they saw the need to include it with mine.

I do however still get slow evaporation in the bubble counter.

Just thought I'd chime in.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

My Milwaulkee did too. But this is AquariumPlant.com's super-duper, cost is no object regulator - and it doesn't have an o-ring. Plastic cranks right down on metal on the bottom of the bubble counter.

Nice rig overall, but IMO that's a pretty sloppy omission for such an expensive unit.


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

FacePlanted said:


> That's weird. My milwaukee reg CAME WITH an o-ring that fits under the brass lid that the brass ring screws over/onto. It sits right on the rim of the top of the bubble counter. It does seem that this o-ring is necessary, as they saw the need to include it with mine.
> 
> I do however still get slow evaporation in the bubble counter.
> 
> Just thought I'd chime in.


FP, the The O-ring in question here for the evaporation is at the base of the liquid counter. And it is a small o-ring. (normally something that doesn't really need to remove. 
Scolley, I was wrong about the size, but if you LHS still doesn't have it, I would still try the local RC shop. FWIW, The first pic is in mm, the second is in it's home. 

HTH


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

scolley said:


> My Milwaukee did too. But this is AquariumPlant.com's super-duper, cost is no object regulator - and it doesn't have an o-ring. Plastic cranks right down on metal on the bottom of the bubble counter.
> 
> Nice rig overall, but IMO that's a pretty sloppy omission for such an expensive unit.


That's odd.

My AP.com's "The Best" regulator came with an O-ring for the top of the bubble counter that fits inside it's brass top. 

There's also a little O-ring at the base of the bubble counter where it attaches to the needle valve.

I'm not using this regulator at the moment and I took it apart to make sure that both of these O-rings are present and they are. I thought they were there, but I wanted to be positive when I told you about them.

AP.com should send you these O-rings at no charge.



CapeCodVivarium said:


> No experience with it but .......
> 
> http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~idProduct~kl3311.html


I've been using the bubble counter fluid. It works fine and it doesn't evaporate, but it's pricey.

I was using it in my "The Best", but I'm using it in an AM bubble counter now. This bubble counter is small and a bubble count past 3 to 4 bps is hard to count and it makes very tiny bubbles in the solution at that rate as well. They're not on the surface like foam or froth would be. They are just part of the bubble counter liquid.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Left C said:


> There's also a little O-ring at the base of the bubble counter where it attaches to the needle valve.


THAT'S the one I'm missing. Got the one on the top. 

And thanks for the feedback on the fluid! So now we know it works, even if there appear to be cheaper alternatives. Thanks!



*tazcrash69 *- thanks for the detail info on the o-ring (with pics!). But now that I know it's comes with some of they AP "The Best" rigs (which is what I got), I'm just gonna contact AP. It's their problem.

Goodness knows how many people might find out if they didn't fix it. :icon_wink


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

i used H2O2 in my counter last time i refilled it up. not that it worked better, but i just decided i would say something since no one has said something about that yet!


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## swylie (May 10, 2007)

danepatrick said:


> i used H2O2 in my counter last time i refilled it up. not that it worked better, but i just decided i would say something since no one has said something about that yet!


That'll evaporate about as fast as water will. Drugstore H2O2 is about 97% water anyway. It will definitely keep algae from growing in the bubble counter, and some guy was asking about what he could put in there that would inhibit algae.


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