# Could Excel be harmful if the majority of plants don't need it?



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

> I only have a few plants that need Excel to grow well. I use it mostly for the dwarf hairgrass (which there is not much of). Majority of the plants are slow to medium growth rate. Could Excel do more harm than good if the plants don't need it?


Hi paperlilies,

An interesting question; in all likelihood the answer is no Excel it will not do more harm than good if it not needed, especially if you are dosing as recommended. There are some species that can experience 'melt' or poor growth from Excel use, there are several threads you can use the search feature to locate. However, that said I personally have gone to doing the Initial Dose after water changes and the daily dose every other day. I used to do the Initial Dose and do 2X the daily dose on a daily basis but found that my plants actually grew better without the high concentration of glutaraldehyde.


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## spore (May 7, 2016)

paperlilies said:


> Inhabitants: red cherry shrimp, ghost shrimp, nerite snail, mystery snail. It will have a betta fish soon.


Seattle_Aquarist already answered the main question elegantly - but I do have a quick note on your inhabitants. Putting a betta in with shrimp usually does not end well. 
Although it is unlikely to be able to actually eat the shrimp, it will surely try. At best you will probably never see your shrimp out and about. At worst, they will be picked on continually and the constant stress may eventually lead to their demise.


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

"Glutaraldehyde is a *toxic chemical* that is used as a cold sterilant to disinfect and clean heat-sensitive medical, surgical and dental equipment. It is found in products such as Cidex, Aldesen, Hospex, Sporicidin, Omnicide, Matricide, Wavicide and others."

As a bioavailable organic carbon I can see how Excel is beneficial to plants. My problem is that I can't see how adding any toxic chemical to the water is very good for the fish. Fish absorb anything and everything in the water through osmosis. I tend to think even chemical fertilizers should be used sparingly ... after all, at the end of the day, it's a FISH tank ... right?
(Lets consider what's in the water in the natural world that hasn't been contaminated by man.)


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## jrill (Nov 20, 2013)

It may be a fish tank, but this is a planted forum so the emphasis here is generally on plants. If your biggest concern is the well being of fish then maybe it would be best to forgo real plants. 

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## spore (May 7, 2016)

There are plenty of *toxic chemicals* present in the natural environment - even without human involvement. Copper, Cobalt, Ammonium, CO2, even O2, etc.. these can all be toxic/lethal, but you have to have the right *concentration*. Making a statement as above with calling it a cold sterilant, etc.. that is just posturing to sound scary, and massively out of the context of how we use it. It is only useful as a sterilant when used at concentrations that are several orders of magnitude higher than anyone would ever dose glutaraldehyde into an aquarium. 
It's use is ubiquitous, and you'd think that if there were massive health issues even at a 2x the normal dosage, that people would stop using it. Yet, people are using it successfully, and breeding healthy specimens of some very sensitive species of shrimp and fish.


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## sharkbunnie (Oct 22, 2015)

I kind of walk the line between AbbeysDad and spore, I work in the medical field and have used glutaraldehyde in this context. It's ingrained in my head this stuff is bad for life. After getting back into the hobby and discovering Excel, I was SHOCKED!.... shocked... somewhat shocked to learn that it can help provide carbon to plants. I used Excel for about a year & a half before switching to pressurized CO2. I found that the initial/post water change dose too high for my Crypts, Java Fern, Java Moss, Ozelot sword,and nearly lethal to my Vals (didn't research ahead of use). I found that if I stick with the maintenance dose I saw better growth and less algae. I did often feel like I was slowly poisoning my fish and shrimp with a known carcinogen. I never thought that it directly contributed to any loss of fish or shrimp because there were always other factors that were discovered with water testing or observation. What I have taken away form all of the reading on this and other forums is that if I use Excel, by and large, stick with the maintenance dose or slowly work your way up to a higher dose, it seems to be ok to use with shrimp and fish if doses don't go too high. algae will decrease. Hopes this helps.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> and you'd think that if there were massive health issues even at a 2x the normal dosage, that people would stop using it.


historically funny.............


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

it does have a half life of about 8 hrs.


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

jrill said:


> It may be a fish tank, but this is a planted forum so the emphasis here is generally on plants. If your biggest concern is the well being of fish then maybe it would be best to forgo real plants.


I believe you can have plants in a FISH tank to benefit the fish in both naturalization as well as water purification! ... but not if your focus is on plants at the expense of the fish. If so, have an aquatic garden without fish.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi All,

Actually Seachem Excel / glutaraldehyde has a half-life (1/2 life) of 10.6 hours; therefore after 10.6 hours it is still half strength. In addition slightly less than a quarter (1/4) of the Excel / glutaraldehyde / carbon dosed one day is still present if we dose 24 hours later. It takes about 48 hours to naturally remove Excel / glutaraldehyde from our tanks.



> Per Union Carbide" (In an) aerobic system, active glutaraldehyde had a half-life of approximately 10.6 hours and was completely metabolized after 48 hours.


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

spore said:


> ....It's use is ubiquitous, and you'd think that if there were massive health issues even at a 2x the normal dosage, that people would stop using it. ...


So a lot of poison will kill you, but a little is okay? What you're saying is not unlike what was once said about chemicals like DDT and Agent Orange. We just don't know what we know till we know it.

if you're convinced you really need it, it's your choice. I'm new to the planted tank and choose not to use it. Call it 'low tech', but my plants seem to be growing fine so why would I use such additives that the fish surely don't need and could do them long term harm?!?!
Unfortunately fish absorb everything in the water through osmosis.


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## spore (May 7, 2016)

I am not sure why you have to be so dogmatic. We are the *planted*tank forum. You are advocating a system where we'd be limited to basically low light, and undemanding plants. Further, your suggestion is predicated on the idea that all the things we are adding into the aquarium are harmful to the fish, when there is a lot of evidence that indicates this is completely untrue. In fact, even in a high-tech, stadium lit, 30PPM dosed tank with prophylactic excel overdosing, eutrophic waters from EI dosing - a lot of times these tanks have extremely low free organics, super high oxygen saturation from plant O2 production, and are generally a fantastic environment for most types of fauna. The people who keep these types of tanks generally are more aware of whats going on chemically in the tank because they are trying to control and keep things super stable. This type of person generally has more meticulous husbandry(by necessity) for both flora and fauna than the typical low light, change water when I feel like it, no dosing aquarist. Not always true, but I think it's a fair bet that it's a most of the time thing.



AbbeysDad said:


> So a lot of poison will kill you, but a little is okay? What you're saying is not unlike what was once said about chemicals like DDT and Agent Orange. We just don't know what we know till we know it.


This is actually how a lot of difference medicines work my friend. Chemotherapy comes to mind. Also, ethanol could technically be a poison as well if consumed in large quantities, but a glass of wine a day or an occasional beer can have health benefits. 
This however does not apply, because we are not adding arsenic to the aquarium, or ethanol, or trying to cure underwater cancer, or anything that might not be found NATURALLY where the plants are collected. If they require it in our aquarium, they require it in nature.. if it's found in nature flourishing, then I don't see why you have a problem with it. We are merely trying to create an environment to replicate what happens in nature.. hence the term nature aquarium. It's not like we are growing things created through genetic science in our aquariums and forcing the fish to be part of the experiment.



> if you're convinced you really need it, it's your choice. I'm new to the planted tank and choose not to use it. Call it 'low tech', but my plants seem to be growing fine so why would I use such additives that the fish surely don't need and could do them long term harm?!?!
> Unfortunately fish absorb everything in the water through osmosis.


You are new to planted aquariums.. so by definition you have little experience with them, and yet are telling us what we are doing is terrible and wrong. okie dokie..


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## jrill (Nov 20, 2013)

AbbeysDad said:


> I believe you can have plants in a FISH tank to benefit the fish in both naturalization as well as water purification! ... but not if your focus is on plants at the expense of the fish. If so, have an aquatic garden without fish.


 And that is what this forum is about. Tanks with the priority on plants.

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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

spore said:


> You are new to planted aquariums.. so by definition you have little experience with them, and yet are telling us what we are doing is terrible and wrong. okie dokie..


Well fairly new to a planted tank, but in the hobby for some 50 years!
_Oh and I think one day we'll realize that chemotherapy and radiation treatments were the dark ages of cancer treatment._


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## Lonestarbandit (Feb 7, 2013)

I am having no problems with Excel/Metricide.
Planted and shrimp and snails and fish.
I will say I did NOT nor do I use the startup dose.
I only dose at or less than Excel strength daily.
My Vals are doing great.
I believe its everything in moderation.


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## paperlilies (Jan 18, 2016)

My ultimate goal of setting up a planted tank is to create a healthier environment for my betta. Good plant growth for better water quality, less frequent water changes. Initially I tried to stock my tank heavily. Half of the plants with fast growth rate. Those plants did not do well so I took them out. Now my tank is moderately stocked, plants with a medium to slow growth rate. I want those plants to grow well ultimately for better water quality, better health of the inhabitants.

I got my betta yesterday. 2.5 month old platinum dumbo delta. So adorable! I figured a younger betta would adjust better with shrimps and snails.


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## Lonestarbandit (Feb 7, 2013)

Wow that's a legit betta! 

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## Delapool (Mar 12, 2016)

Long term I do wonder about the effects of glut dosing and if any studies have been done. My main concern is developing a sensitivity to it and now I don't dose the tank the night before a water change. 

Short-term of say less than 5 years it seems fine. Concentration in water doesn't impact bacteria or fish as far as I can tell.


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## Lonestarbandit (Feb 7, 2013)

Seachem has been around quite a while.......and while I'm all for busting their seemingly secret recipes they are a quality company.
Think if it had long term negative effects they wouldn't be selling it and hospitals wouldn't be using glut.

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## paperlilies (Jan 18, 2016)

I just did a 50% TAP water change with prime and added just under the recommended extra dosage of Excel after a water change. My betta is at the bottom of the tank like he doesn't feel good. Fins clamped by his body. He goes up to the surface for air then back down to the bottom again. Ugh. Should I do something right away or just let him be? Sometimes making a change to fix something makes it worse.


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## Lonestarbandit (Feb 7, 2013)

Warned you about that after water change dosage nonsense.
You could change out some more water and get some of that Excel out of there and lower its concentration.
He would probably feel better.
Remember the part about moderation?
For future reference probably best to stick to the standard dosage rate.


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## paperlilies (Jan 18, 2016)

Lonestarbandit said:


> Warned you about that after water change dosage nonsense.
> You could change out some more water and get some of that Excel out of there and lower its concentration.
> He would probably feel better.
> Remember the part about moderation?
> For future reference probably best to stick to the standard dosage rate.




I added less than the start up dose recommends thinking that would be a good balance. I was wrong! I'm a little concerned if I do more water changes it will make matters worse. The Gh and Kh of my TAP water is greater than my tank water. Just by doing a 50% wc Gh increased 4 to 6 drops, Kh increased 2 to 4 drops. I wonder if that is the culprit or Excel or both. PH is the same 7.8.


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## Lonestarbandit (Feb 7, 2013)

Could be a combination of all.
I have learned that with the excel and indeed any water parameters it is best to ease into changes gradually.
Fertilizers, Excel, water changes etc.
Yes I think he is probably shocked with all the changes that happned to his water all at once. 
I would let your tank stabilise as long as he looks like he's breathing all right.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

paperlilies said:


> I just did a 50% TAP water change with prime and added just under the recommended extra dosage of Excel after a water change. My betta is at the bottom of the tank like he doesn't feel good. Fins clamped by his body. He goes up to the surface for air then back down to the bottom again. Ugh. Should I do something right away or just let him be? Sometimes making a change to fix something makes it worse.


Hi paperlilies,

Are you saying that your tap water is substantially harder than your tank water and you did a 50% tap water change?

If so, may be the cause of the fishes distress. Excel/Glutaraldehyde is slightly acidic and may slightly affect the PH although I have never measured encountered it. It should have no effect on the hardness either dKH or dGH.


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## paperlilies (Jan 18, 2016)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi paperlilies,
> 
> Are you saying that your tap water is substantially harder than your tank water and you did a 50% tap water change?
> 
> If so, may be the cause of the fishes distress. Excel/Glutaraldehyde is slightly acidic and may slightly affect the PH although I have never measured encountered it. It should have no effect on the hardness either dKH or dGH.


Correct. I have another lengthy thread regarding that topic. I was experimenting how to prepare the new water. Mix RO and TAP 50/50 or 100% RO with Equilibrium and potassium bicarbonate added. Regardless, the KH in the tank would consistently drop at or below 17ppm in a week. I thought I was making it too complicated so I tried 100% TAP to stabilize the KH and GH. It was better, but by the end of the week the KH and GH dropped 1-2 degrees. Consistency is difficult mostly for the KH. During all this experimenting there were no fish in the tank until yesterday.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

paperlilies said:


> My ultimate goal of setting up a planted tank is to create a healthier environment for my betta. Good plant growth for better water quality, less frequent water changes. Initially I tried to stock my tank heavily. Half of the plants with fast growth rate. Those plants did not do well so I took them out. Now my tank is moderately stocked, plants with a medium to slow growth rate. I want those plants to grow well ultimately for better water quality, better health of the inhabitants.
> 
> I got my betta yesterday. 2.5 month old platinum dumbo delta. So adorable! I figured a younger betta would adjust better with shrimps and snails.


chiming in here, first off that beta is hot!

why mess, when i have a prized fish like a discus or a for me a panda loach, i try work conditions around that fish. Other fish i could care less for and am very discriminatory. 

So that being said give him a nice oxygenated tank.

Low tech, easy does it. 

This is maybe a myth, my friend said to get his beta a stronger fighter, give him lots of current, all that swimming will strengthen him up lol
thats a joke, he was serious, but i don't know how serious the fact is. Don't take this as making your system a powerful river system..


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## paperlilies (Jan 18, 2016)

Thanks StrungOut. I got him directly from a good breeder. Most pet store bettas I have seen are sick. Poor things.

That's funny you mentioned what your friend said about the a current. I wondered the same since he's so young. Although, he does have larger fins than some bettas. I don't want to them to tare or create too much stress for him.

So to give him "a nice oxygenated tank" would an air stone be beneficial? I thought airstones are not good for planted tanks. I have 2 HOB filters (adjustable flow). 1 wasn't circulating the water well. 


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## Oso Polar (Apr 22, 2015)

Well, one thing I can say for sure - bettas don't seem to care even about HUGE prolonged Excel overdose, so I'd look for betta discomfort reasons elsewhere. I personally used it in bettas' grow out tank in *10x standard dose* daily for about one or two months (was fighting BGA). There were about a couple dozen bettas, they didn't showed any signs of stress and were growing very well. Moreover, tank also had a few otos and crypts (undulata and wendtii) - no damage to these either. And this tank was never treated with Excel before, so fish and plants were not accustomed to Excel dosing.

Also, in some other tanks that have some way, way more delicate fish than betta (e.g. chocolate gouramis) and some shrimp (amanos, bamboo) I'm permanently dosing Excel at 2x dose. Everything seems to be fine. Even jungle vals are growing. However, ambulia and Blyxa aubertii melt and disintegrate very fast for me (especially ambulia - healthy plants disintegrate in the matter of a couple of days) - I can't definitely say that this is because of Excel but this is my first suspect.


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

I'm battling algae and dump 10ml of Excel in a 20g on a daily basis..no ill effects other than slower algae growth!
AND I think about this from time to time...
I wonder if it helps with Ich spores, etc??? just a thought!

I have never had any kind of disease outbreak in the tank I dose excel in regularly. Knock on Wood!!!


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## paperlilies (Jan 18, 2016)

Also, he looks better this morning. Not 100%, but better.  

For future water changes, would it be best to mix some RO with TAP to bring down the GH and KH to match the tank water?

For an accurate reading am I supposed to let it sit for a few hours to give time for the KH and GH to adjust? When I let 100% TAP water sit for 24 hrs in a bucket the pH stays the same. Can the GH and KH decrease after sitting in a bucket for 24 hours or is that just the pH that can change?

This is what I tried in the past when experimenting. My RO water pH is 6.0, KH and GH 0 drops <17ppm. My TAP water pH is 8.0, GH 6-7 drops, KH 6 drops. I mixed that with TAP water 50/50. Tested the GH and KH right away. It matched the tank's current GH and KH so I did an immediate 50% water change. Since the GH and KH and pH were not stable, it would lower gradually throughout the week, I suspected mixing RO was not good. So the past 2 weeks I have used only Tap water for a 50% water change. Throughout the week the GH decreased from 6 to 4 drops, KH decreased from 4 to 2 drops. (I added potassium bicarbonate once in the middle of the week.)

I'm trying to come up with a plan now. Here are my thoughts. Discontinue Excel. Maybe discontinue ferts KH2PO4, KNO3 and just use root tabs and flourish 1x/week. Not sure how often to do water changes and how much: 1x/week 25%? Or whenever my nitrates reach 20ppm? (Example: 2-3 weeks, 25% wc). 

Not sure what method I should stick to for preparing the new water:

1. Use 100% TAP to keep my KH from dropping to 0 drops <17 ppm and add potassium bicarbonate every 2-3days to keep the KH up.

2. Mix RO and TAP to match the aquarium water. When I did this, the levels were Ph 7.6, Kh would start at 2 drops (35ppm) then hit 0 drops (<17 ppm) by the end of the week, Gh consistent at 4 drops (71 ppm).


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

paperlilies said:


> Correct. I have another lengthy thread regarding that topic. I was experimenting how to prepare the new water. Mix RO and TAP 50/50 or 100% RO with Equilibrium and potassium bicarbonate added. Regardless, the KH in the tank would consistently drop at or below 17ppm in a week. I thought I was making it too complicated so I tried 100% TAP to stabilize the KH and GH. It was better, but by the end of the week the KH and GH dropped 1-2 degrees. Consistency is difficult mostly for the KH. During all this experimenting there were no fish in the tank until yesterday.


Hi paperlilies,

I wonder if it is the substrate that is causing the drop in dKH and dGH. I know when Montmorillonite clay substrates are new they can drop water hardness and I believe peat can drop water hardness but I am not aware of any 'natural' methods.

How is the betta looking today, is it more active? I agree with the previous post that suggested that if the fish is not showing respiratory distress then leave well enough along and let them acclimate to the new water conditions.


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## paperlilies (Jan 18, 2016)

Oso Polar said:


> Well, one thing I can say for sure - bettas don't seem to care even about HUGE prolonged Excel overdose, so I'd look for betta discomfort reasons elsewhere. I personally used it in bettas' grow out tank in *10x standard dose* daily for about one or two months (was fighting BGA). There were about a couple dozen bettas, they didn't showed any signs of stress and were growing very well. Moreover, tank also had a few otos and crypts (undulata and wendtii) - no damage to these either. And this tank was never treated with Excel before, so fish and plants were not accustomed to Excel dosing.
> 
> Also, in some other tanks that have some way, way more delicate fish than betta (e.g. chocolate gouramis) and some shrimp (amanos, bamboo) I'm permanently dosing Excel at 2x dose. Everything seems to be fine. Even jungle vals are growing. However, ambulia and Blyxa aubertii melt and disintegrate very fast for me (especially ambulia - healthy plants disintegrate in the matter of a couple of days) - I can't definitely say that this is because of Excel but this is my first suspect.




What I question is, now that my tank is moderately stocked with plants that have a slow-medium growth rate, they may not be using all the excel. They are not eating up the nitrates like before when I had fast growing plants.


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## paperlilies (Jan 18, 2016)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi paperlilies,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He is looking better today. Not 100%.

Yes it is the substrate. Does that mean the substrate is using up the KH and I need to add potassium bicarbonate every 2-3 days to keep it stable? I also have a large chunk of driftwood. It's cured (I boiled the tannins out). It does not stain the water like tea so I don't know that the driftwood is making that much of a difference.


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## paperlilies (Jan 18, 2016)

More simply put, what is a person to do when the substrate lowers the KH (mostly) and GH? The fluctuations do not seem very safe for fish & invertebrates.


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## Varmint (Apr 5, 2014)

I used Excel in a five gallon Betta tank to fight algae. The algae died. My water parameters went south. My Betta got sick and died. I now rarely add anything to my Betta tanks. I will dose ferts every few months if the plants look like they need it. In my experience, it takes about a year for a low tech tank to settle in, lose the algae issues and let the plants go wild. If you want to commit to that gorgeous Betta, start thinking of it as a Betta tank with a Betta garden instead of a planted tank.

You have a long fin Betta. He will need plenty of plants to rest on (they have issues swimming, especially as they get older and the fins get longer). Check that off your list. You are doing great. I disagree with the person who said to increase water flow. Your Betta won't like that. It will cause stress. I use a canister filter with a spray bar. The outflow is turned toward the wall. This diffuses the flow. The Betta can still sit on the spraybar and enjoy the flow, but he won't get buffetted by the current. Use your plants to make sure he will have areas to hide and rest. I exercise my halfmoon by playing with a mirror. He struts in front of it opening his fins fully. It works his muscles and gives him cardio.

Page two of this link shows my tanks at close to two years. Low tech, low ferts. Basically a couple of boxes of plants that are Betta heaven (hiding spots, swimming spots, hunting areas with critters and snails)
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/22-planted-nano-tanks/719938-twin-aquastyle-tanks-work-progress-update-2.html


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

paperlilies said:


> He is looking better today. Not 100%.
> 
> Yes it is the substrate. Does that mean the substrate is using up the KH and I need to add potassium bicarbonate every 2-3 days to keep it stable? I also have a large chunk of driftwood. It's cured (I boiled the tannins out). It does not stain the water like tea so I don't know that the driftwood is making that much of a difference.
> 
> More simply put, what is a person to do when the substrate lowers the KH (mostly) and GH? The fluctuations do not seem very safe for fish & invertebrates.


Hi paperlilies,

I use Montmorillonite clay as the substrate in all of my tanks. When it is new, and has not been used before, it will absorb the carbonates from the water dropping the dKH which results in a dropping of the dGH. How long will it last? Until it stops, not the best answer but until the substrate has become saturated with sufficient ions it will continue to absorb them but at a decreasing rate over time.

A 75 gallon that I set up in 2013 took several months to stop affecting my hardness. Every week I would do my water change (I have very soft water), then dose baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to get my dKH back to 2.0 and dose Equilibrium to get my dGH back to 3.0 - 4.0....I tried not to move the dKH or dGH more than 2 degrees at a time. Sometimes I would test and dose mid-week without water changes.

Glad to hear that cute betta is doing better.


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## paperlilies (Jan 18, 2016)

Varmint said:


> I used Excel in a five gallon Betta tank to fight algae. The algae died. My water parameters went south. My Betta got sick and died. I now rarely add anything to my Betta tanks. I will dose ferts every few months if the plants look like they need it. In my experience, it takes about a year for a low tech tank to settle in, lose the algae issues and let the plants go wild. If you want to commit to that gorgeous Betta, start thinking of it as a Betta tank with a Betta garden instead of a planted tank.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If I could figure out how to do a DIY spray bar with my existing HOB filters that would be awesome! 


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## paperlilies (Jan 18, 2016)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi paperlilies,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks! The tank has been running for 5 months. Gradually getting better and better as I work out the problems. It has 2-3 inches of substrate which seems like a lot for a 10 gallon. I'm used to 1 inch of inert gravel. I can imagine that amount of substrate to water ratio will take awhile to saturate sufficient ions.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

paperlilies said:


> Thanks StrungOut. I got him directly from a good breeder. Most pet store bettas I have seen are sick. Poor things.
> 
> That's funny you mentioned what your friend said about the a current. I wondered the same since he's so young. Although, he does have larger fins than some bettas. I don't want to them to tare or create too much stress for him.
> 
> ...


I think u are good then w two hob. Is bacteria edtablished? This is where someone could go scientific with how important the ö2 n bacteria is.

An air stone would not hurt

In regards to excel, it being algae code and "such", it's been observed to hinder breeding rates in shrimp. I can see it doing harm to Betts just not how much iono. Just imagine swimming n company pouring chemicals into your water.


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## paperlilies (Jan 18, 2016)

StrungOut said:


> I think u are good then w two hob. Is bacteria edtablished? This is where someone could go scientific with how important the ö2 n bacteria is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes, bacteria is established in the 1st HOB filter. I just added the 2nd HOB filter 7 days ago. I'll discontinue Excel and ferts, see how it goes. Mix a little RO with TAP to match the tanks current GH, KH. No additives except Prime. In a month or 2 I may add a few root tabs.

Good thoughts, Varmit, about thinking of it as a betta garden rather than planted tank. It really is all for him and his tankmates.


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## paperlilies (Jan 18, 2016)

It has been 24 hours since the water change & extra Excel dosage. Both snails seem to like the top of the tank. Although they are moving around the tank, they go up to the top again soon after. Shrimp are still hiding deep in the Christmas Moss. My betta looks better but is hanging out at the top of the tank too. They don't look like they are on their deathbed, but it alarms me.

Does this mean they are not getting enough oxygen or they don't like the water?

Yesterday I thought letting it be was the best thing to do. Give it time for Excel to be completely ineffective in 48 hrs. If I did another water change to get rid of Excel the GH and KH would increase in the tank from using TAP water. I need to get more RO water tomorrow to soften my TAP water.


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## Lonestarbandit (Feb 7, 2013)

Yes it will take about 48 hours to completely vanish from the tank.
So if he still has issues it is something else.

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## Leeatl (Aug 8, 2015)

ichy said:


> I'm battling algae and dump 10ml of Excel in a 20g on a daily basis..no ill effects other than slower algae growth!
> AND I think about this from time to time...
> I wonder if it helps with Ich spores, etc??? just a thought!
> 
> I have never had any kind of disease outbreak in the tank I dose excel in regularly. Knock on Wood!!!


I wonder this too , about diseases in general . Excel IS a sterilizing agent . I know it is used in higher strength for sanitizing , but maybe being in a tank all the time may keep disease to a minimum .


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## paperlilies (Jan 18, 2016)

There are so many different variables from one planted tank to another that could have a positive or negative response to Excel. Once I took out fast growing plants I don't think it's necessary for my tank IMO. Whether or not Excel caused my shrimp and betta to react, I don't want to take that chance again. In combination with the 50% TAP wc, GH and KH increase by 2 degrees, it created more stress. Afterwards I was told tanks with shrimp shouldn't have more than 15% wc at once. A few hours apart is ok.


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## gmh (Jul 16, 2014)

A common theme here and in my own experience is to dose Excell conservatively even the first time, so as to avoid stressing sensitive plants and fish. And, dose every day...
I do also find that over time I need to gradually increase the dose as the flora adapts.
I finally switched to Co2 on my display tank and the difference is like night and day. 
No more excel needed for that tank!


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

StrungOut said:


> I think u are good then w two hob. Is bacteria edtablished? This is where someone could go scientific with how important the ö2 n bacteria is.
> 
> An air stone would not hurt
> 
> In regards to excel, it being algae code and "such", it's been observed to hinder breeding rates in shrimp. I can see it doing harm to Betts just not how much iono. Just imagine swimming n company pouring chemicals into your water.



Chemical is not necessarily a bad word. "All natural" is not always a good thing. 

Have you ever been to a public swimming pool? Just imagine swimming without someone pouring chemicals in the water! The same with drinking water. Leave out the "chemicals" and people die.


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## VinceIII (Mar 3, 2016)

I was thinking about using liquid carbon, because my dKH and pH apparently indicate low CO2. It seems that having water parameters within the recommended range is the right thing to do, but several people have reminded me of the possibility that bringing one parameter within range could push another one out of range. Sure, my plants could be growing faster and getting lusher, but they and my fish appear healthy.

Regarding the question of whether the aquarium is primarily about the plants or the fish, for me it's definitely my betta. I have live plants because there are low-tech options that can contribute to a safe, healthy environment without being a burden. If I were to start seeing issues that were detrimental to my fish, or if the need for more maintenance or a higher-tech setup developed, I'd switch to silk.


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

That's right....It's a fish tank with beautiful living plants!


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