# Vermiculite / aquatic soil / UGF compatability?



## Tres (Jan 27, 2004)

This is probably a very dumb question, but, can I use a mixture of Vermiculite and Schults aquatic soil covered with pea gravel on an undergravel filter, or will it eventualy turn to mush and get sucked thru the filter?


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## George Willms (Jul 25, 2003)

Underground filters in general are a bad idea for planted tanks.


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## Pete (Nov 29, 2003)

I agree with George here, UGF are really bad if u want to keep a planted tank. The aquatic soil will probbably be pulled up through the filter and spread into your tank or it may clogg the filter. 
Pete...


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## George Willms (Jul 25, 2003)

Plus the roots will eventually reach down and clog the filter plate anyway.


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## Tres (Jan 27, 2004)

Good points...
So since I cant afford to put a heater under my substrate, whats my best alternative for getting oxygen in the substrate?

Maybe something that burrows like trumpet snails?


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Most of us use Trumpet Snails for tightly packed substrates that need help with aeration. Most loose gravels will do just fine without any turnover of the substrate.


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## George Willms (Jul 25, 2003)

Plus, what you're planning on using is not so small that it will compact and become anoxic too easily. MTS are good for gravel aeration though as sam said.


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

Putting oxygen in the subtrate is bad! It will cause many of the nutrients oxidize, thus they'll be useless to the plants...


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## George Willms (Jul 25, 2003)

You get more of a gradient, the whole substrate will not be oxygenated, just the upper layers, the lower levels will still be able to reduce the nutrients.


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## Tres (Jan 27, 2004)

Ok thanks for the great info!


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## Rolo (Dec 10, 2003)

So what do you plan on doing?

You won't need anymore oxygen with your substrate, usually people with 100% sand need to worry about that b/c it compacts well. UGF are pretty much a terrible choice for planted tanks too, plus IME are horrible filters. I hated my old UGFs!


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## Tres (Jan 27, 2004)

well I think I am going to go with about an inch of vermiculite / schultz aquatic soil mixture, covered in about 1 1/2 inches of pea sized black gravel.
For filtration, a fluval cannister with sponges on the intake and exit.
2 yeast co2 injectors into small overturned dishes, and 1 air pump... hopefully it wont take out too much of the co2.. but I just want to be sure my 46 cardinal tetras and 2 rams have something besides co2 to breath lol.


If my wife can get her digital camera working before the weekend, Ill start a journal, something like "Poor mans planted tank" lol


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Pea sized gravel IMHO is much too big in a planted tank. It doesn't grip the plants at all and too much junk falls into it. Normally one wants a substrate in the 1-3 mm range for a planted tank. 

Also running an air pump with your projected CO2 system means the CO2 system is worthless. Either don't run the air pump or get a better CO2 diffusion system and still don't run the air pump. If you live in the US you can get the Hagen ladders for around $10 each and they work great for smaller tanks. What size tank are we talking about here anyway?


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## Tres (Jan 27, 2004)

Its a 46 gallon tank... the type with a bowed front.
Im curious how the fish will aqcuire oxygen without water agitation or an airstone? Either will remove co2 from the water.

I have a 10 gallon where the c02 is injected under a small dish and it has 2 over the side filters as well as an air stone, yet at the same time I find the water to have plenty of co2 (enough to cause ph crash)

Keeping in mind that the water is VERY agitated and has an airstone going as well, my conclusion is that since the co2 is trapped under the dish, it will continuosly dissolve into the water, and there will always be co2 present.

I admit im new to growing plants, and I know just enough about water chemistry to get me into trouble, but I see no other way to explain the high co2 levels in a highly agitated tank with an airstone....

In any case, what would be the proper poor mans way to provide oxygen to my fish, and co2 to my plants at the same time?


PS: I am so glad I found this forum.. you guys /gals have really been a great help.


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## wellbiz (Aug 6, 2003)

Plants expire oxygen, fish use this oxygen. An airstone is not putting any oxygen in the water. An air stone creates a surface disturbance there by increasing the surface area of the water allowing more oxygen to be absorbed into the water. And hence CO2 to be released. Your tank should not need an air stone if it is planted....

Jason


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## Tres (Jan 27, 2004)

And how many plants would you suggest to keep 48 1 inch long fish healthy?


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## wellbiz (Aug 6, 2003)

That is alot of fish for that tank... Hard to say, I cant give you an exact number, it is more of a situation of tank maintance and monitoring your fishes and plants health. Suspect anything over 50% planted would be good. The more the better. Of course around here we consider a planted tank to be full when you cant see the fish :shock: 

Jason


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## GDominy (Jul 30, 2002)

48 1" long fish really isnt a heavy bioload for a 46 gallon tank... I'm the poster for overstocking at the moment (I wont even tell you have I have in my 45 Gallon tank because it would start a flame war to end all flame wars).

You could get away with moderate or even somewhat light planting assuming you have a filter with a large biological capacity (like an aquaclear 500 on a 45 gallon)


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## Tres (Jan 27, 2004)

I will definetely have a healthy, and quite large biomechanical filtration proccess...
I plan on purchasing a very large cannister filter, and adding large sponges to the intake / exit. My guess is it would provide the biomechanical filtration necesary for a normal 75 gallon tank, probably even larger.
I will not be adding all the fish simultaneously, just a few fish every week or so... the bio filter will have plenty of time to adjust... and I have an established 10 gallon tank to "seed" the larger tank with the proper bacteria.

My concern is that with no aeration, and little surface movement, the plants will not be able to produce enough oxygen for the fish.

I do plan on using a fairly large number of plants... covering the back, sides, 3 pieces of driftwood, and some smaller plants in the foreground... leaving an empty area in the center with a piece of driftwood slicing thru it...
I suppose I will just have to buy test kits for c02 and oxygen and keep an eye on things. (I am assuming they make such kits and sell them nearby)


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Your planting plan will give you plenty of plants. No need to buy either CO2 or O2 test kits. You can determine the CO2 using the CO2/pH/kH chart. And the O2 is not going to be a problem. Also you might want to take a peek at my FAQ in regards to cycling a planted aquarium.


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## Tres (Jan 27, 2004)

Ok will do... first I must run a search for "CO2/pH/kH chart"
and learn about that


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

There is a link on my FAQ.


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## wellbiz (Aug 6, 2003)

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm


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## Tres (Jan 27, 2004)

Ok I got some very interesting results.
My co2(yeast) injector is nearing the end of its monthly cycle, ( assume that means it is producing less co2 than at the beginning of its monthly replacement cycle(I could be wrong?) The co2 is injected under a small overturned dish.
I should add that the tank is aerated, has 2 over the back filters, one of them with a biowheel.... in otherwords this tank has highly agitated water.

In a ten gallon tank, light to medium planted, 10 cardinal tetras:
ph 6.4
kh 7

chart puts me at 83ppm on the co2... a little high eh?

could the soon to be removed peat filtration be affecting the results?


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## George Willms (Jul 25, 2003)

I agree with Gareth 48 small fish in a 46 should be no problem. And no, don't even ask how many fish I have in my tanks.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

The peat could well be and most likely is affecting the results.


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## Tres (Jan 27, 2004)

Ok I will try to get an accurate measurement next week when the peat filter has been gone for a while..


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