# Are these 'High Tech' substrates actually worth it?



## iskandarreza (Jul 4, 2011)

I guess it's just less hassle with the high-tech substrates. All the nutrients are packed in the soil and the grains are just the optimum size for plant growth or something. All in all, it allows people to just get it done and over with. It's a reflection of society's hunger for instant gratification in this fast-paced, time-constrained modern world.

But this is of course, just my opinion.


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## Capsaicin_MFK (Nov 15, 2009)

iskandarreza said:


> I guess it's just less hassle with the high-tech substrates. All the nutrients are packed in the soil and the grains are just the optimum size for plant growth or something. All in all, it allows people to just get it done and over with. It's a reflection of society's hunger for instant gratification in this fast-paced, time-constrained modern world.
> 
> But this is of course, just my opinion.


Pretty much this. Expensive substrates + expensive co2 setups = faster results.

Aquasoil is basically dirt with gelatin and peat moss and some added nutrients. If I still worked at a chemistry lab I could break it down better.

It is totally worth it though.


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## the planter (Jul 8, 2010)

i think im still going to try to plant my plants in gravel with root tabs. if it works well then i works and no need for buying aquasoil. i dont really care about faster results... if i wanted to try it out first id do like a 10 gallon and see how its goes. i dont see the point of wasting a ton of money on dirt for a huge tank and then you end up not liking it. but i have not seen a single person here who doesnt like aquasoil lol


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## Rhaethe (Jan 20, 2010)

Out of curiosity, has anyone mixed Aquasoil with gravel or sand? Might help with larger tanks .. if so, does it give reasonable results?


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## Mxx (Dec 29, 2010)

All the hardcore planted tank hobbyists have suggested to me that it is actually plain old dirt that works best, under a cap of something such as pool filter sand. And you can't beat a price of free for the dirt. The dirt takes some time and energy to prepare, and is a little messy if you're not careful, but apparently does work the best. And with dirt you usually won't need to dose root tabs or most water column fertilizers as the dirt already contains several years supply. 

However, companies of course can't make any money off us if we're just using dirt from our gardens, hence all the high-tech substrates and heavy marketing! Nevertheless apparently some of them might work decently and perhaps their convenience is worth their extra cost. However, you won't get the best results with plain gravel.


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## cggorman (May 9, 2009)

I can understand the cost to produce "aqua soils" and won't bash anybody for spending the money to buy it, but I would caution them to research mineralizing regular topsoil before laying out the stack of benjamins to do a larger tank. For a little tank, it's probably worth paying for a commercial product, but for a large volume, I'd do it myself.

...

A 40 lb bag of plain organic topsoil is $2 at most. The supplements are another $10-ish. A tarp and rubbermaid container is another $20. For $32 and a bit of time and mess, you end up with around 20 pounds (dried and sifted) of good MTS. Another 20 pounds is just $2 more...etc. I have like 100 pounds of substrate in my tank. $40 worth of MTS. How much would that be for an ADA product?


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

cggorman said:


> I can understand the cost to produce "aqua soils" and won't bash anybody for spending the money to buy it, but I would caution them to research mineralizing regular topsoil before laying out the stack of benjamins to do a larger tank. For a little tank, it's probably worth paying for a commercial product, but for a large volume, I'd do it myself.
> 
> ...
> 
> A 40 lb bag of plain organic topsoil is $2 at most. The supplements are another $10-ish. A tarp and rubbermaid container is another $20. For $32 and a bit of time and mess, you end up with around 20 pounds (dried and sifted) of good MTS. Another 20 pounds is just $2 more...etc. I have like 100 pounds of substrate in my tank. $40 worth of MTS. How much would that be for an ADA product?


Probably a kidney if not other various vital organs. However, I don't know if there's a way to work out a bulk deal with them (probably unlikely). I have good growth with MGOPM topped with PFS, water column fert dosing, low light (granted it stays on most of the day) and a paintball CO2 setup in a 20g tall, so I'm guessing you're paying for a brand name, quality and convenience with the "high tech substrates" as everyone else has been saying.


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## xJaypex (Jul 4, 2009)

If you you use dirt topped with sand or what ever you always have to be very careful uprooting plants as it can get messy really fast.
Once you set up and fill it up with water you don't have the freedom to move plants around when you feel like it like you would with the "special substrates". Atleast without having to worry about the mess it can create. So yeah ada soil is totally worth it for me.
Why not just use eco complete?


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

xJaypex said:


> If you you use dirt topped with sand or what ever you always have to be very careful uprooting plants as it can get messy really fast.
> Once you set up and fill it up with water you don't have the freedom to move plants around when you feel like it like you would with the "special substrates". Atleast without having to worry about the mess it can create. So yeah ada soil is totally worth it for me.
> Why not just use eco complete?


Was considering it, but I'm more or less just experimenting with my tank before I decide to do something serious. Someone mentioned it having good results and so I tried it. I don't really have the messiness problem, but then again I don't move my plants around so it works fine for me. Also, using PFS I already had and not even 1/8th of a $9 bag of MGOPM made a lot more sense to me than ordering 2 or 3 bags of eco complete online since no one sells it locally. I thought aqua soil clouded as well? Also, in all honesty my next tank will probably be a GLA 60-L with the whole substrate shebang, so I can't really say anything bad about aqua soil. The stuff is great from what I've read and seen.


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## cggorman (May 9, 2009)

Replanting is definitely an issue with soil. I do sometimes miss the ability to quickly replant without dealing with the clouding (filter clogging and visibility _during_ the job is my biggest problem) ...but to be completely fair, soil is not a _lot_ worse than a mature granular substrate that's loaded with mulm. (I don't vacuum planted tanks)

Plain Eco-Complete works great as a rooting medium (so does rock wool), but it's almost inert. It's porous, so it can store _some_ nutrients, but root tabs and/or column dosing is mandatory, in my experience.


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## 100gal-Man (Jul 21, 2007)

xJaypex said:


> If you you use dirt topped with sand or what ever you always have to be very careful uprooting plants as it can get messy really fast.
> Once you set up and fill it up with water you don't have the freedom to move plants around when you feel like it like you would with the "special substrates". Atleast without having to worry about the mess it can create. So yeah ada soil is totally worth it for me.
> Why not just use eco complete?


 
I've lost count of the number of threads that I've read with people complaining about clouding issues with moving plants because ADA soil has (and it does from reading) turned to mud.


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## dwc13 (Dec 15, 2010)

100gal-Man said:


> Are these 'High Tech' substrates actually worth it? I've kept aquaria for over 40 years and I've seen the wave of enthusiasm sweep through the hobby for these new (and _very highly marketed_)'super substrates'.
> 
> I've never used these 'super substrates' and have always had excellent plant growth (actually too much, as sometimes it can be a chore keeping up with the growth) and my compost bin takes a lot of aquatic prunings. Am I being too sceptical in thinking that *"Wow, these companies are making a killing selling dirt"?*
> 
> ...


 
If you've had success with aquatic plants using plain old gravel as the substrate and are happy with the results, I'd say you probably aren't missing too much. But nobody in the industry has figured out how to consistenly charge a hefty premium on plain old gravel, so the marketing folks have had to come up with a different approach. 

Evian has been selling bottled water for how long? And not just in countries where tap water is terrible, either. So it shouldn't be too surprising if a company is trying to make money selling "dirt" to aquarists. Perhaps when someone has invested a fair amount of money in a nice tank, T5HO lighting, a reliable CO2 setup, Eheim filtration, etc., the thinking becomes why not also get a substrate that is perceived by many hobbyists as being one of the best for aquatic plants. To each their own, I suppose.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

dwc13 said:


> .... So it shouldn't be too surprising if a company is trying to make money selling "dirt" to aquarists.


Great Grandpa owned a farm, if he was alive to see people paying for bags of
manure he would fall down laughing.

In any thread keep perspective that "Best" is often more personal preference that pure science. I think while high & low tech both work one's time investment weighs in heavily on the decission.

Aqua scaping is a journey for me not so much a destination. So user friendly/ lower on going maint. time has value for me.

I t would be interesting to see two tanks, side by side, identical in every detail except the substraight. Like 2 -20's on a 55gal stand.


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

There are various reasons for using old fashion dirt verses the newer, sometimes expensive, substrates.

In my own case, I live in a townhouse condominium. Very small front and back yards, and a set of rules to keep the area looking nice. If I started making mineralized mud outside, I'd quickly get a letter from the management association. 

So the "best" substrata for me is something I can get that I can just put into the tank.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

cggorman said:


> I can understand the cost to produce "aqua soils" and won't bash anybody for spending the money to buy it, but I would caution them to research mineralizing regular topsoil before laying out the stack of benjamins to do a larger tank. For a little tank, it's probably worth paying for a commercial product, but for a large volume, I'd do it myself.
> 
> ...
> 
> A 40 lb bag of plain organic topsoil is $2 at most. The supplements are another $10-ish. A tarp and rubbermaid container is another $20. For $32 and a bit of time and mess, you end up with around 20 pounds (dried and sifted) of good MTS. Another 20 pounds is just $2 more...etc. I have like 100 pounds of substrate in my tank. $40 worth of MTS. How much would that be for an ADA product?


Good post to my eyes reading it roud: but question whether the whole MTS step is required? Tannins are reduced starting the tank true enough but not eliminated completely on the one tank I did using MTS. If you're willing accept stained water for a few months and monitor closely on the start up for parameter swings (which I do anyway) dirt packed/mixed with organics has worked just fine repeatedly. Cost is pennies compared to any other method and the results challenge the high end stuff. 

Nice post cggorman


xJaypex said:


> If you you use dirt topped with sand or what ever you always have to be very careful uprooting plants as it can get messy really fast.
> Once you set up and fill it up with water you don't have the freedom to move plants around when you feel like it like you would with the "special substrates". Atleast without having to worry about the mess it can create. So yeah ada soil is totally worth it for me.
> Why not just use eco complete?


Eco-Complete is NOT complete LOL


freph said:


> Was considering it, but I'm more or less just experimenting with my tank before I decide to do something serious. Someone mentioned it having good results and so I tried it. I don't really have the messiness problem, but then again I don't move my plants around so it works fine for me. Also, using PFS I already had and not even 1/8th of a $9 bag of MGOPM made a lot more sense to me than ordering 2 or 3 bags of eco complete online since no one sells it locally.


Using dirt in the base shifting things around I do use care on what I pull up after setting up a tank but it's not the end of the world. I'm not one to re-scape very often and rarely break a system all the way down once it's set.
Eco complete makes a great capping material or root anchoring material but I'm not a fan of lava rock and honestly feel the marketing on the stuff is BS. Good CEC but,, complete? _*I think not*_ it doesn't preform by itself alone as a planting media. Flourite original is a fired clay (crushed brick LOL) and is about the same.


cggorman said:


> Replanting is definitely an issue with soil. I do sometimes miss the ability to quickly replant without dealing with the clouding (filter clogging and visibility _during_ the job is my biggest problem) ...but to be completely fair, soil is not a _lot_ worse than a mature granular substrate that's loaded with mulm. (I don't vacuum planted tanks)
> 
> Plain Eco-Complete works great as a rooting medium (so does rock wool), but it's almost inert. It's porous, so it can store _some_ nutrients, but root tabs and/or column dosing is mandatory, in my experience.


hahaha Reading these posts will have me looking for your threads when I have the time.

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Breaking up DogFish's reply to hit points of opinion here


DogFish said:


> Great Grandpa owned a farm, if he was alive to see people paying for bags of
> manure he would fall down laughing.


haha agreed, but the first thing to do with setting up a dirt tank is be certain it contains no manure and try to avoid chemical additives of any kind. That is why I used potting mix spending <$5 a bag setting up my dirt tanks.



DogFish said:


> In any thread keep perspective that "Best" is often more personal preference that pure science. I think while high & low tech both work one's time investment weighs in heavily on the decision.
> 
> Aqua scaping is a journey doe me not so much a destination. So user friendly/ lower on going maint. time has value for me.


While I agree with what is said here dirt (mts or not) does not = low tech
Light drives the demand on all factors.


DogFish said:


> I t would be interesting to see two tanks, side by side, identical in every detail except the substraight. Like 2 -20's on a 55gal stand.


I've done this in setting up two 75g tanks.
Same light fixtures with the same type bulbs off the same timer.
CO2 driven off controllers to both tanks.
Eco Complete in one and Flourite original in the other.
Same water yada yada, dosed parameters first EI then PPS then added substrate supplements to both along with changes to the water column dosing.
Same plant groups added to both tanks.
The bookend appearance I was shooting for never worked out. 









I set up a tank with MTS and a plain jane dirt tank within a week of each other and after two years I feel the npt out preformed the mts system.
Even with the same plants, equipment and stocking each tank develops completely different so how to produce a control for testing is beyond what I've done. 
Simply setting up two water boxes with the same stuff changing one thing (Eco Complete - Flourite original) (NPT - MTS) after a year doing both the results while similar the only difference I can state is effort in set up or effort in maintenance. Based on that aspect alone plain jane dirt won out and I've repeated that set up three times.

The OP's original question? I never saw the cost as being worth it to try ADA or any other 'refined' planting media. What I've used has worked well worth using again. Dirt works as well as anything else and better than most (imo)
Founding member coining the phrase here on TPT in *The Fraternity of Dirt*


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

I can say soils made for shrimp like netlea do seem to work for they are designed for, to lower hardness and pH. I have fairly hard water, 7.6pH from the tap (after 24hrs, aerated, etc) and the soil can bring it down to very soft and a pH of 6.4, which for my crystals is the optimal for them.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

100gal-Man said:


> Are these 'High Tech' substrates actually worth it? I've kept aquaria for over 40 years and I've seen the wave of enthusiasm sweep through the hobby for these new (and _very highly marketed_)'super substrates'.
> 
> Is the enthusiasm justified? Did aquatic plants form a union for better conditions? Did I miss the memo that aquatic plants will no longer grow in plain gravel and fish poo?
> 
> ...


I think using BOTH locations for nutrient sis wiser, and makes it easier say if you forget to dose the water column, and you do get better growth from dosign BOTH loications, they compement the other.

Your sediment last longer if you dose the water column also.

I use ADA AS as it's often used for higher level of scaping and hobbyist, but this does not imply soil/dirt/worm castings etc cannot do the same.

I also do not like adding more than 1 single type of sediment in a tank, they mix and look tacky.

I set up tanks for the longer term, so I can redo them and move the sediment slopes much easier than I can with layered sediment with caps of sand.

For clients, using a pre made product that;'s fairly clean is a easier.

I "make" washed clay loam(which is the same nutrient wise and particle sizing etc etc....... as ADA AS) for research all the time, one of the more lowly jobs at the lab. But it works nicely also. I'm certain I've made far more than anyone in the hobby.:redface:

That is not an admission of pride either, more of pain and suffering.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

100gal-Man said:


> I've lost count of the number of threads that I've read with people complaining about clouding issues with moving plants because ADA soil has (and it does from reading) turned to mud.


Yep, so uprooting is a non issue really, it's inherent in any enriched sediment type really.


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

DogFish said:


> I t would be interesting to see two tanks, side by side, identical in every detail except the substraight. Like 2 -20's on a 55gal stand.


Skim through this:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/cryptocorynes/76369-substrate-experiment-commercial.html


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

wkndracer said:


> I set up a tank with MTS and a plain jane dirt tank within a week of each other and after two years I feel the npt out preformed the mts system.


Thanks for the insight into your experiences, 'racer. Can you clarify as to exactly what you use in your dirt tanks? Potting mix and *nothing *else? And what exactly is NPT?


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

jart said:


> Thanks for the insight into your experiences, 'racer. Can you clarify as to exactly what you use in your dirt tanks? Potting mix and *nothing *else? And what exactly is NPT?


All my posts are my opinion LMAO! (disclaimer)
NPT; is a broad term for natural planted tanks with most using it as a low tech term, some even state that only following the Walstad method should the term even be used.
NPT to me is using soil in an aquarium.
Using Miracle Grow Organic Choice Potting Mix as my base material thus far. I've done three versions all with low powered filters. All are in strings here on TPT.

Follows the Walstad method very closely capped with Flourite.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/low-tech-forum/86457-55-gallon-low-tech-soil-sub.html
The lower tank is a soil tank. Modified method using clay, sand, muriate of potash and soil capped with Flourite.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/t...bum/131940-stainless-2-story-56k-warning.html
Using soil that was flooded/dried to break most of the organics for about 6 month and freshily set up. Capped with coal slag.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/low-tech-forum/143352-another-npt-ds-dirt-tank.html

All these are very cheap builds


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

I like the New AS as long as it doesn't crumble like the ASII did. I think it's worth it in the long run as long as it lasts several years and not just months. I did some quick and dirty calculations compared to other online substrates or Petsmart bagged gravel and it's not that much more expensive. So I might as well spend ~20% more for the good stuff.

I could just get a bulk 100# bag of #3 river gravel or go down to the local river and grab some sand/gravel, but it wouldn't be dark like New AS is. I'm not keen on using soil with a cap either. If I could make MTS that looked dark brown or black and didn't need a cap to hold it in place, then I'd try it.


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## bubbleboy (Jul 18, 2011)

I call it good marketing.... and I agree with the OP. But having said that, I do have 15 bags of flourite black in my 120 that cost me $300... I bought it only because:

It is a natural product not painted like cheapo fish store gravel

And because I can afford it and it looks good.

No other reason.


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