# whats better a wet/dry trickle filter or a canister filter for a planted tank



## dannyboy (Jul 20, 2007)

i just switched fr saltwater to a planted freshwater tank 75 gallon if wondering and i have been doing a lot of reading about this hobby right now a im reading that a trickle filters witch i am using right now are not that good for planted tanks and i do have have fluval 404 but am really seeking more advise on this topic because my wet/dry pumps about 1200 to 1600 gph compared to the fluval 404


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

If you plan in injecting CO2 (Plants use CO2 for photosynthesis), then the water turbulence of a trickle filter can out gas the CO2 you are trying to put in..
There are a few members here that just use a sump, and use them to hide all the equipment. There are things you can do like seal the sump, avoid excess splashing, etc...

On the other hand IMHO, 1200 GPH seems like a lot of flow for a 75 gallon planted tank.
Hopefully one of the sump guys can hep out there.


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## daveenedy (Jan 5, 2007)

How are your overflows set up? Thats the biggest issue with CO2 "outgas". If the water falls down and splashes then you'll lose some. 

1200/gph isn't really a lot especially if your doing stuff inline.

dave


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## dannyboy (Jul 20, 2007)

its a regular overflow the water gets pulled in then sucked up by the tube then down the 1in tubing to the sump


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## dannyboy (Jul 20, 2007)

also the fact of the matter is i paid alot of money for wet/dry and i'd hate to see it just collecting dust because i'm not going to sell it just in case i every want to go back to saltwater


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## daveenedy (Jan 5, 2007)

dannyboy said:


> its a regular overflow the water gets pulled in then sucked up by the tube then down the 1in tubing to the sump


Does the water fall the height of the tank (inside the overflow) or only a small distance?

dave


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## dannyboy (Jul 20, 2007)

Yes. The Filter Is A Proline 2000 Wet/dry Trickle Filter W/ Protein Skimmer By Amiracle.

I Hope I Spelled That Right. Whats Funny About The Protein Skimmer Is I Used The Rio 600 Pump It Came With To Make My Diy Reacter


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## aquaman3000 (Oct 21, 2006)

Wet/dry filters can be used successfully with planted tanks. If set up properly, the CO2 loss will be minimal, as concluded by Tom Barr, George Booth, and others. See here:

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/co2-loss.html

Setup your overflows with durso or stockman style standpipes inside your overflows with minimal water drop. I will also mention that 1200-1600 gph is very very high flow for a planted 75, even after some head loss. Unlike reef setups, extremely high flow is not necessary. Depending on your source, most recommend turning over the tank 1-5 times per hour in a planted aquarium. I push 450 gph after head loss in my 110 gallon, and I am considering turning my gate valves down some.

You will find the majority of planted tank enthusiasts using canisters, but there are many who enjoy the benefits of using a sump with their planted tanks.


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## dannyboy (Jul 20, 2007)

THANKS is there any links on the durso or stockman standpipe i need to use


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

You will laugh at how simple it is:
http://www.dursostandpipes.com/

Do you have a hang on overflow?


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## Aqua Dave (Feb 23, 2004)

There are many people using sumps on a planted tank. Do a search on "sump" and you'll find lots of discussion.

Couple quick points. You want a sump, not a wet/dry/trickle. Trickling the water over media is the quickest way to outgas your CO2. Get rid of the trickle part of the filter. You want the water draining from the tank to enter into the sump underwater. This conserves CO2. Minimize splashing throughout the system as mentioned. Beyond that, people have constructed sumps in many different ways.

David


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## ianiwane (Sep 7, 2004)

I also highly advise against a wet/dry. Why was your pump so strong in your reef system anyway? Even for reef systems you want a lot less turn over of your sump. Water flow should be made up with powerheads not return pumps. 1200 for a planted tank is def. way too strong. You will fighting a never ending battle with co2 levels. You will never have enough CO2.


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## mecgeorgeneo (Aug 12, 2005)

maybe he had sps or used it for a closed loop? *shrug*


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

You may consider the hybrid method, one I use for myself and clients.

A lower flow wet/dry and a canister.

The canister filters mechanically, and the water change drain water back washes the canister so you rarely even need to clean it.

The wet dry is sealed obviously, the CO2 degasses in a seal chamber, well, it's not going anywhere obviously either
It'll just equilibrate and then redissolve back into solution.

What goes in, must come. Pretty basic and obvious stuff there.

Sumps/wet drys allow for nice surface extraction, that's good and also to have the same level inside the tank, also a huge plus and keeping junk out of the tank etc.

A 75 might be a tad small for adding a cansiter and wet/dry unless the sump/wet/dry is small.

Each method has it's benefits and issues.
At abut 90 gallons and above, I use wet/drys and seal them up, reduce the flow rates so I can also reduce noise namely from the oveflow and air suction mixing.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## dannyboy (Jul 20, 2007)

well here it is i pumped alot of water because i made my own return so i didnt need to look at ugly powerheads (also to mention i had a great current) if you look at it your way your still pumping alot of water around and have to look at ugly powerheads and i didnt want that i when for something more different and natural 
but now that im stuck with all this equipment wet/dry, returns ,canister filter, uv light ,wavemakers, timers, and all the other crap id hate to see it go to waste also to mention i am a greatful person and thank all for helping me in my new quest thank you


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## wantplantsnotwork (Nov 28, 2004)

I use an ehim wet/dry. BUt it really isn't anymore. Took out the float control do-hicky, and plumbed the CO2 directly to the breather to make a "reactor".

It works quite well in this application.


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## aquaman3000 (Oct 21, 2006)

Tom, how much flow do you run through a wet/dry on say a 100 gallon?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

aquaman3000 said:


> Tom, how much flow do you run through a wet/dry on say a 100 gallon?


500GPH, I'd use a 800-1000gph pump and then split the line for UV and for Venturi mazzii for CO2 with a loop and ball valve and backwash.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## crazy loaches (Sep 29, 2006)

If you seal up the chamber is there really enough O2 to even warrant having the wet/dry? 

I know a real wet/dry is about the ultimate in bio filtration but is that even helpfully in a heavily planted tank? Many have run heavily planted tanks with little or no bio at all, since not only due to the plants uptake but also the huge amount of surface area from all the plants that bacteria have to populate in the tank itself. Just curious.


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## Ukrainetz (Jul 11, 2007)

Sorry don't have time to read through all the other replies, but here's the short version:
You CAN use the wet/dry filter, and it is beneficial in many ways... The filter itself could be rigged up to work flawlessly with a PT, its the overflow that could present a problem. If water falls any distance, or flows down the side of the overflow that could cause co2 dissipation. Your basic goal in a PT is to reduce/eliminate surface agitation... The wet/dry filter will have to simply become wet, or sealed off (first option is much better and easier). You just fill it up to the level where the water starts to first "trickle" down (flood the bio balls). The other nice thing about a sump is that its a nice place for a co2 reactor!!! especially if you have a bulky DIY one! Good luck!


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## Ukrainetz (Jul 11, 2007)

Crazyloaches, sealing the chamber or flooding it will not introduce any o2 to the biomedia, so it is essentially useless having it. You could be using that space for some other equipment since the planted tank provides plenty of surface for bacteria to grow on. 

Danny, 1200GPH may be a lot, but you're right, if you distribute it properly its not a problem (125GAL runs 1200GPH Iwaki with 4 return jets). If its still too much (plants get battered) you can do what Tom did...split the return, add a ball valve, and direct some of the water towards the co2 reactor perhaps? Good luck


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## crazy loaches (Sep 29, 2006)

Ukrainetz said:


> Crazyloaches, sealing the chamber or flooding it will not introduce any o2 to the biomedia, so it is essentially useless having it. You could be using that space for some other equipment since the planted tank provides plenty of surface for bacteria to grow on.


Thats what I was implying, not asking. What I was getting at was if that is true, then why do the gurus like Tom do it?


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## Ukrainetz (Jul 11, 2007)

Despite not being a useful wet/dry filter, it still provides a lot of surface area for bacteria, which get their o2 from the water column. So perhaps he is being extra cautious? Or maybe just lazy... Lol pm him!


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## aquaman3000 (Oct 21, 2006)

It is pretty difficult to completely seal a chamber hermetically. Since the oxygen content in air is magnitudes higher (~ 20% of atmosphere) vs. water (0-18 ppm), there likely will be oxygen more than sufficient to allow the operation of a wet/dry in nearly all applications. In addition, as mentioned previously, there is oxygen already in the water being introduced into the wet/dry.


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## Ukrainetz (Jul 11, 2007)

It is and it isn't. It all depends on the equipment. But the point is if you do seal it right, you will not have any air introduced to the chamber. Hence flooding it would be an easier alternative as stated previously. And when flooded, I don't care if o2 is 90% of the air, it won't make a difference. It _*Will Not*_ operate as a wet/dry filter any more. To be a wet/dry, the surfaces of the media have to come in contact with both air and water (like a biowheel). So I don't see the point you're trying to make. Plants are an excellent place for bacteria as they produce pure oxygen. Plants also absorb ammonia and nitrite, so the bio load gets reduced.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

aquaman3000 said:


> It is pretty difficult to completely seal a chamber hermetically. Since the oxygen content in air is magnitudes higher (~ 20% of atmosphere) vs. water (0-18 ppm), there likely will be oxygen more than sufficient to allow the operation of a wet/dry in nearly all applications. In addition, as mentioned previously, there is oxygen already in the water being introduced into the wet/dry.


The goal is not to let O2 in/out here, it's the prevent CO2 escape.
Not that hard nor do we need to really anal about the seals.

As far as O2, well, in a gas phase, O2 diffuses very rapidly and have a lot of surface area on those balls, O2 is pulled in from the top also and is equilibrated, same with the CO2 dissolved in the water, it'll come down and degas and then once enough builds up, it'll dissolve back into the water before leaving.

Same with the O2.

O2 levels are quite high in a well run plant tank anyway, 90% or higher.
So the bacteria have plenty in there.

Personally, I'm of the mind to have both a canister and wet/dry for larger tanks.

My main issue is noise with wet/drys, so some flow control can solve that.
CO2 is cheap anyhow and easy to add.

I'd rather have no evaporation water lines, a place to get all the junk out of the tank, surface extraction, sleek look, etc, then also have a nice pleted canister for mechanical filtration or put a bag filter as well on the wet/dry sides(in a sealed section before the wet/dry chamber). Some plastic latches, some rubber sealant and you can seal about anything up pretty good.

All this can be a lot and DIY abilities vary certainly.

But it's not that hard, even duct tape works to seal up the leaks.
Some tweaking here and there on the overflow.

Each has it's trade offs, and by combining both methods effectively, you reduce the trade offs.

Much like dosing/fertilization, use the sediment and the water column to your advantage to get more out of both methods.

Use Excel, water changes, less light, herbivores to gain advantage over algae.

Use several tools that work with each to achieve a goal.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Aqua Dave (Feb 23, 2004)

Tom, why would you use a wet/dry over just a sump? What purpose does the wet/dry serve? If the wet/dry chamber is sealed then you aren't letting in any air from the outside so whatever O2 is in the wet/dry is what was already in the water, correct? So you aren't really putting more oxygen in the water than what was already there. Planted tanks have lots of surface area for the bacteria so it seems the extra surface area provided by the bio-media in the wet/dry isn't necessary.

Just trying to understand what a wet/dry can provide over just using a sump.

David


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