# Kh and ph problem



## 439394929 (May 26, 2020)

This is my first post in this forum so I may be posting this in the wrong place. I've asked this question in 2 other forums and still no answer. I have 2 tanks a 29 gallon low tech and a 10 gallon hospital tank that I have neon tetras recovering from columnaris in. Here's my problem. My tap water comes right out the tap at a ph of 7.4 and a kh of 5-6dkh. After 24 hours with an air pump ph is 8.2 and kh is 10. This is all good and well but in the 29 gallon ph is 7.4 with a kh of 3dkh and the 10 gallon has a ph of 7.8 with a kh of 5dkh. After just days the kh decreases significantly and that leads to the lh to drop. I have nothing that could lower ph like peat moss or driftwood (because my 10 gallon is empty since its a hospital tank and my 29 gallon is pretty empty except for a crypt and some guppies) and the nitrate in the 10 gallon is only 10ppm and nitrate in 29 gallon is 20ppm. I live in Franklin Kentucky and all the water reports say hard water which I know. I don't want to have to use crushed coral because a 10 kh should be enough. So my question is why is my kh and ph decreasing at such a rapid rate?


----------



## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

GH would be a more important reading to know.


----------



## 439394929 (May 26, 2020)

DaveKS said:


> GH would be a more important reading to know.


 gh is 10 after 24 hours. Gh is still 10.


----------



## Tuister (Jun 25, 2019)

Hi @439394929,

The only thing that is going to drop your KH are acids. 

If the 10 gallon is a bare bottom tank with water, and your KH is dropping, then I would say it might not be cycled (and you are in the middle of it). 

In the 29 gallon, if it is an inert (does not release anything) substrate i.e. gravel, and all you have is a crypt and some guppies and the tank is cycled, then maybe post a picture. If the tank is extremely dirty, this may do it: if your bacterial population is blooming and you are having a mini-cycle; however, if the crypt is growing well and the fish are extremely healthy, then it may be your titration solution (i.e. your test kit). 

Your water should not double your KH or increase it by 5 degrees just by degassing. The test kit measures alkalinity, and the only way to increase that is with salts that you have to add - the only thing that 24 hours is doing is off-gassing your gases - this should not affect the salt concentration. 

Josh


----------



## 439394929 (May 26, 2020)

Tuister said:


> Hi @439394929,
> 
> The only thing that is going to drop your KH are acids.
> 
> ...


 The 10 gall is cycled because I used seeded filter media and it measures 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite and nitrate is always below 40. I didn't mean to put kh is 10 after 24 hours it stays at 5 my bad. I use eco complete which Is inert and I don't put any chemicals to change water. The crypt is growing new leaves so its doing good and the guppies are breeding. The neon tetras got sick because I got a sick one at petsmart.


----------



## 439394929 (May 26, 2020)

439394929 said:


> Tuister said:
> 
> 
> > Hi @439394929,
> ...


 also yes the 10 gal is bare bottom ill send pics if u want of the 29 gal


----------



## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

I honestly don't see anything concerning about those levels.... my bigger concern would be whether or not there's a TDS difference between tanks and tap. Perhaps upping the amount of water changes could help? Could either do larger water changes or more frequent ones?


----------



## 439394929 (May 26, 2020)

Zoidburg said:


> I honestly don't see anything concerning about those levels.... my bigger concern would be whether or not there's a TDS difference between tanks and tap. Perhaps upping the amount of water changes could help? Could either do larger water changes or more frequent ones?


 I do 50% water changes weekly. I'm just confused why the kh decreases and ph decrease so fast because everything else I've read says that a 4 kh is good enough and I have a 5 kh yet it still isn't a good enough buffer.


----------



## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Well, more than just KH controls pH... so again, I can't see an issue with the pH levels, even if they do differ. At 50% water changes though, that is kind of odd that the KH would be changing that much that quickly...

Besides the fish getting sick due to introducing one that was sick, do you notice any issues with the fish otherwise due to the differences in ph and KH?


----------



## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

439394929 said:


> gh is 10 after 24 hours. Gh is still 10.


With a GH of 10, after water has set for 24hrs absorbing co2 from atmosphere a PH8 and KH5 not out of line.

You'd better off to put a small bag of peat/leaves in your change water anyway, especially for the neons hospital tank water changes.


----------



## 439394929 (May 26, 2020)

DaveKS said:


> 439394929 said:
> 
> 
> > gh is 10 after 24 hours. Gh is still 10.
> ...


 that's not the problem I'm fine with ph of 8 and kh of 5 but the problem is the kh and ph decreases so fast in the tank in the span of days. The neons are good they've been raised in local water because my LFS keeps them in tap water as well.


----------



## Tuister (Jun 25, 2019)

439394929 said:


> also yes the 10 gal is bare bottom ill send pics if u want of the 29 gal





439394929 said:


> The 10 gall is cycled because I used seeded filter media and it measures 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite and nitrate is always below 40. I didn't mean to put kh is 10 after 24 hours it stays at 5 my bad. I use eco complete which Is inert and I don't put any chemicals to change water. The crypt is growing new leaves so its doing good and the guppies are breeding. The neon tetras got sick because I got a sick one at petsmart.





439394929 said:


> that's not the problem I'm fine with ph of 8 and kh of 5 but the problem is the kh and ph decreases so fast in the tank in the span of days. The neons are good they've been raised in local water because my LFS keeps them in tap water as well.


I am glad it stays at 5  .

Is the 1 crypt giant? If you are not co2 injected, I wonder (and maybe someone can weigh in here) if the crypt is utilizing your carbonates as a co2 source. 

To drop a couple KH in a few days is large. 

However, let's say that your each drop of your test kit has a 10 PPM change on the color for KH.

If you are testing in at 5dkh, that is about 80 ppm ... so it's possible that you are maybe triggering the color change at 72 ppm (even though it reas 80) ... and so when you test in a few days and you at at 3dkh, you are at about 50 ppm ... it may actually be that you are actually 50 (provided both of the test tubes were filled to the 5mL mark identically - we are humans) ... even a mL difference could skew your test. 

So the dKH difference may only be 1 ... and I wouldn't be worried about that. 

If the plant is healthy, the fish are breeding, and the large concern is understanding why the test is yielding bizarre data, then we can look at the test itself - because the system is healthy. 

Note that I simplified the ppm numbers to "about" to go along with the 10 ppm increment. Each degree is 17.8 ppm. 

Cheers,

Josh


----------



## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Sorry but your neons are not fine with a PH of 8 and a GH of 10 being dumped in on them with water changes. Read up on both PH and osmotic shock. It’s probably why your neons are sick to begin with. 

Those shifts happening in your tank slowly over the coarse of days not going to bother them. When you dump that water in at change time is what is bothering your fish, environmental stressors caused by you and then secondary infections setting in. Keep changing your hospital tank with that water and your neons are never going to recover, your shocking the fish over and over again every time you change water.

It’s your job as aquarium keeper need to make sure your change water matches the tanks water as close as possible. If that means prepping your change water with a little peat etc to get organic acids back in the water that’s what you have to do.


----------



## 439394929 (May 26, 2020)

DaveKS said:


> Sorry but your neons are not fine with a PH of 8 and a GH of 10 being dumped in on them with water changes. Read up on both PH and osmotic shock. It’s probably why your neons are sick to begin with.
> 
> Those shifts happening in your tank slowly over the coarse of days not going to bother them. When you dump that water in at change time is what is bothering your fish, environmental stressors caused by you and then secondary infections setting in. Keep changing your hospital tank with that water and your neons are never going to recover, your shocking the fish over and over again every time you change water.
> 
> It’s your job as aquarium keeper need to make sure your change water matches the tanks water as close as possible. If that means prepping your change water with a little peat etc to get organic acids back in the water that’s what you have to do.


 You need to do your research. These neon tetras have been raised in local waters for years. Ive been using tap water the whole time and so has the lfs. The fish aren't even sick anymore I'm just keeping in the tank until I figure out the kh and ph problem. Like I said the reason they got sick is I took a risk and bought fish at petsmart and when I was acclimating the fish I saw a patch on one of the neons. What shifts are you talking about? How am I shocking the fish if I'm using the same water I filled the tank with and that I'm using for water changes? You have to realize a lot of fishkeepers are keeping fish out of their normal ph and gh ranges because they've been slowly acclimated to them and now they thrive in these 'abnormal' ranges. If I needed help with neon tetra care then I would have made a post on that.


----------



## 439394929 (May 26, 2020)

Zoidburg said:


> Well, more than just KH controls pH... so again, I can't see an issue with the pH levels, even if they do differ. At 50% water changes though, that is kind of odd that the KH would be changing that much that quickly...
> 
> Besides the fish getting sick due to introducing one that was sick, do you notice any issues with the fish otherwise due to the differences in ph and KH?


 No not so far. The guppies are breeding and they are on the move constantly. I just tested the water and kh is 3dkh and ph is 7.8. The last water change was only 4 days ago and yet the kh has dropped by 2dkh and the ph has dropped by .4.


----------



## 439394929 (May 26, 2020)

Tuister said:


> 439394929 said:
> 
> 
> > also yes the 10 gal is bare bottom ill send pics if u want of the 29 gal
> ...


That makes sense to me. I know it's not always on that 5ml line so your probably right. I will keep everyone updated but so far this time the ph is only at 7.8 when tap is 8-8.2 (after 24 hours tap is). If I run into more problems I'll make a reply. Heres a pic of the crypt. When I got it a month ago, it only had 6 leaves. Now it has 11 and a new one is sprouting.


----------



## 439394929 (May 26, 2020)

Tuister said:


> 439394929 said:
> 
> 
> > also yes the 10 gal is bare bottom ill send pics if u want of the 29 gal
> ...


here's another picture. The 2 fish are guppy fry that are about 3-4 weeks old


----------



## butchblack (Oct 25, 2019)

The part that puzzles me is your going from a ph of 7.4 to 8.0 after 24 hrs of aeration AND a rise in kh from 5-6 to 10. I understand aeration will raise ph, it's the rise in kh that has me perplexed. Do you have a lot of CO2 in your tap water? If you do it might explain some of the other water problems you're having.


----------



## 439394929 (May 26, 2020)

butchblack said:


> The part that puzzles me is your going from a ph of 7.4 to 8.0 after 24 hrs of aeration AND a rise in kh from 5-6 to 10. I understand aeration will raise ph, it's the rise in kh that has me perplexed. Do you have a lot of CO2 in your tap water? If you do it might explain some of the other water problems you're having.


I'm redoing the test right now. The kh thing was a typo and I have a cup of water setting out and ill test it when the 24 hours are up. I've looked through a bunch of local water reports and couldn't find anything about co2. I live in Franklin Kentucky so if you can find anything knock yourself out.


----------



## Tuister (Jun 25, 2019)

439394929 said:


> I'm redoing the test right now. The kh thing was a typo and I have a cup of water setting out and ill test it when the 24 hours are up. I've looked through a bunch of local water reports and couldn't find anything about co2. I live in Franklin Kentucky so if you can find anything knock yourself out.


If you have a bubbler, throw it in real quick and you can test within no time at all. 

I suspect it is just the parameters/human use of the test. 

Do not let the test tube misinterpret what your eye sees. 

I love test kits -- but they are hobby-grade ... I suspect if you took a solution that was sensitive to 1 ppm for the titration color to change, then you would see exactly what I demonstrated above. 

What @DaveKS said has merit, but if you are certain about the fish being unhealthy apriori (and your acclimation was not TDS/osmotic shock) and your husbandry could not have nursed the fish to full health at his point in the infection, then you're fine. 


Josh


----------



## 439394929 (May 26, 2020)

Tuister said:


> 439394929 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm redoing the test right now. The kh thing was a typo and I have a cup of water setting out and ill test it when the 24 hours are up. I've looked through a bunch of local water reports and couldn't find anything about co2. I live in Franklin Kentucky so if you can find anything knock yourself out.
> ...


Yeah I had a bubbler in the cup I used. Here are the results.
Ph straight out of tap: Low test-7.6 High test-7.4
Kh straight out of tap: 6dkh
Gh straight out of tap: 9dgh
Ph, Kh, and Gh after being left out for 24 hours with air pump.
Ph: Low test-7.6 High test-8.0
Kh: 6-7dkh 
Gh: 9dgh
The sick fish came from petsmart. I had 3 neon tetras before I introduced the 7 new ones and they were healthy. As I was floating the bag I saw a spot on one of the new neon tetras but I didn't thank much of it until that same fish started showing fin rot. I quarantined all the neon tetras and treated them and I'm going to keep them in the quarantine tank until I figure out this ph/kh issue. Here are the parameters for my 29 gallon tank as of today: Ph-7.8 kh-4dkh. Just to make sure on the kh I did the test 3 times and got 4dkh every time so I don't think it was an error this time. I still wish I knew what is eating up my kh because the lowest it has ever gotten was 2dkh and ph went down to 7.2. Maybe the problem is getting better because the ph has been 7.8 for about a week now. I will make daily updates of the parameters of each tank (I didnt do the 10 gallon today because I did a waterchange so the ph won't be an actual reading until the ph of the water I added climbs up to its actual value. And before anyone says this will harm the fish it won't because this natural ph rise has no effect on the fish. I wish I could explain but someone on fishlore explained it to me and used some big ass words that I didn't understand. If anyone wants me to copy and paste it here I will)


----------



## Tuister (Jun 25, 2019)

Hi @439394929, 

Unfortunately, pH swings from salts kill fish. In other words, if you water change (50%) with 20KH water into your tank, all of your fish will die. Now adjusting to harder water is slightly easier than softer, but the change still cannot be drastic. Conversely, several people (myself included) drop their pH from gases by at least 1 unit every day with no adverse effects on fish - this is done via CO2 injection. So your tap water "pH" difference isn't going to affect anything ... but if your kH varies immensely, then it will. 

You have two options:
1) Plants are using your carbonates
2) Acids (or decaying stuff) are eating your carbonates (this means that your carbonates bond to the any acid, preventing the water pH from crashing down ... fish can't live in vinegar). 

Acids are formed every second in your tank from the nitrogen cycle. So you've dropped 2KH which is probably 1 via my example above due to the accuracy of the test. You have assured your testing method is solid (with the 5mL), so that leaves the 10PPM variant. 

You are happy with the health of your flora and fauna; your neons you pulled to quarantine because of the sick one you have added. Just nurse them back up and reintroduce them once they are healthy. 

I wouldn't say you have a problem; everything in your tank is inert except for the things I pointed out up top. The decaying leaf on that crypt will also contribute to a KH drop ... trim off the those, retaining only clean and algae-free leaves and see what happens. 

Focus on cleaning, water changing, trimming, etc ... unless you want to learn the chemistry.

Josh


----------



## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Tuister said:


> Hi @*439394929*,
> 
> Unfortunately, pH swings from salts kill fish. In other words, if you water change (50%) with 20KH water into your tank, all of your fish will die. Now adjusting to harder water is slightly easier than softer, but the change still cannot be drastic. Conversely, several people (myself included) drop their pH from gases by at least 1 unit every day with no adverse effects on fish - this is done via CO2 injection. So your tap water "pH" difference isn't going to affect anything ... but if your kH varies immensely, then it will.
> 
> ...


Very informative. Thanks Josh.


----------



## 439394929 (May 26, 2020)

Tuister said:


> Hi @439394929,
> 
> Unfortunately, pH swings from salts kill fish. In other words, if you water change (50%) with 20KH water into your tank, all of your fish will die. Now adjusting to harder water is slightly easier than softer, but the change still cannot be drastic. Conversely, several people (myself included) drop their pH from gases by at least 1 unit every day with no adverse effects on fish - this is done via CO2 injection. So your tap water "pH" difference isn't going to affect anything ... but if your kH varies immensely, then it will.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the information. Today's paramaters are for the 29 gallon: Ph=7.8 and Kh is 4dkh. 10 gallon: Ph=7.8 kh is 5-6 dkh. The kh goes from 6dkh to 6-7 dkh after 24 hours so is that a big enough change to kill/harm the fish?


----------



## Tuister (Jun 25, 2019)

439394929 said:


> Thanks for the information. Today's paramaters are for the 29 gallon: Ph=7.8 and Kh is 4dkh. 10 gallon: Ph=7.8 kh is 5-6 dkh. The kh goes from 6dkh to 6-7 dkh after 24 hours so is that a big enough change to kill/harm the fish?


This is where @zoidberg 's comment about the TDS would come in handy. Most TDS metres can be made cheaply and are well-worth the 10 bucks or so. https://www.amazon.ca/s?k=TDS+Meter 

TDS meters measure the total dissolved solids in the solution ... it measure everything with a charge. 

If you know that you are around 5-6 KH in your tank and 6-7 in your WC, and your TDS is only off by 20, then go crazy and change 90%. 

If it is off by 200, then you have to ask yourself what is going on and maybe do two water changes at 20% daily until your TDS drops. But you have to watch the fish, if they start flashing after a water change, then you have stressed them. Schooling is natural behavior, so your neons will probably school together regardless if the parameters match. 

In your case, although it is worth getting a TDS meter for the sake of it (this hobby can get increasingly expensive so time your expenditures), I think you are fine to go ahead and do your water changes ... just start with 10's or 20's every day and watch your fish. If everyone is good, take a bit more time and do a larger one. And then watching your fish, and your tank, you can move to as large and as frequent (or as small and as infrequency, or any combination thereof) changes as you'd like.


Cheers,
Josh


----------



## 439394929 (May 26, 2020)

Tuister said:


> 439394929 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the information. Today's paramaters are for the 29 gallon: Ph=7.8 and Kh is 4dkh. 10 gallon: Ph=7.8 kh is 5-6 dkh. The kh goes from 6dkh to 6-7 dkh after 24 hours so is that a big enough change to kill/harm the fish?
> ...


 Okay I'll definitely get one in the near week. If they don't have them at my Walmart I'll just order one.


----------



## Tuister (Jun 25, 2019)

439394929 said:


> Okay I'll definitely get one in the near week. If they don't have them at my Walmart I'll just order one.


I suspect that they will not be at Walmart; I'd go ahead and order off amazon. All of those yellow ones are identical just distributed by different names.

Cheers,
Josh


----------



## 439394929 (May 26, 2020)

Tuister said:


> 439394929 said:
> 
> 
> > Okay I'll definitely get one in the near week. If they don't have them at my Walmart I'll just order one.
> ...


 Okay I will order one tomorrow. Todays paramaters are the same as yesterday so that's good, but I also have something strange. The cup of tap water that I had with an airpump for 24 hours was still next to my 29 gallon and its been out for 2+ days so I decided to test it. It came out with ph of 8, kh of 10, and a gh of 13. How is it even possible that the gh went up none after 24 hours but after I let the water sit it goes up by 3 whole units? Same with kh. How has it gone up 3-4 whole units just by sitting out? And the ph stayed at 8 yet the kh nearly doubled. I don't think these paramaters are right but I tested it twice and got the same results. I did a 25% water change today as today is wc day so we will see if it increases the kh or ph tomorrow.


----------



## Tuister (Jun 25, 2019)

439394929 said:


> Okay I will order one tomorrow. Todays paramaters are the same as yesterday so that's good, but I also have something strange. The cup of tap water that I had with an airpump for 24 hours was still next to my 29 gallon and its been out for 2+ days so I decided to test it. It came out with ph of 8, kh of 10, and a gh of 13. How is it even possible that the gh went up none after 24 hours but after I let the water sit it goes up by 3 whole units? Same with kh. How has it gone up 3-4 whole units just by sitting out? And the ph stayed at 8 yet the kh nearly doubled. I don't think these paramaters are right but I tested it twice and got the same results. I did a 25% water change today as today is wc day so we will see if it increases the kh or ph tomorrow.


It's not possible (if the cup is made of an inert substance :wink2; I wouldn't worry. Or the air pump leaked something.


----------



## 439394929 (May 26, 2020)

Tuister said:


> 439394929 said:
> 
> 
> > Okay I will order one tomorrow. Todays paramaters are the same as yesterday so that's good, but I also have something strange. The cup of tap water that I had with an airpump for 24 hours was still next to my 29 gallon and its been out for 2+ days so I decided to test it. It came out with ph of 8, kh of 10, and a gh of 13. How is it even possible that the gh went up none after 24 hours but after I let the water sit it goes up by 3 whole units? Same with kh. How has it gone up 3-4 whole units just by sitting out? And the ph stayed at 8 yet the kh nearly doubled. I don't think these paramaters are right but I tested it twice and got the same results. I did a 25% water change today as today is wc day so we will see if it increases the kh or ph tomorrow.
> ...


Alright I guess that makes sense just weird because I tested the gh twice and got the same thing.


----------



## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Evaporation can cause GH and KH to go up.


What test kit are you using? Any chance there's a date on it?


----------



## 439394929 (May 26, 2020)

Zoidburg said:


> Evaporation can cause GH and KH to go up.
> 
> 
> What test kit are you using? Any chance there's a date on it?


 its api. I just ordered them about 3 months ago and the expiration date is in like 3 years. Its probably evaporation because it was next to the window.


----------



## 439394929 (May 26, 2020)

439394929 said:


> Zoidburg said:
> 
> 
> > Evaporation can cause GH and KH to go up.
> ...


 forgot to do yesterday's update but no point because paramaters are the same 7.8 ph 4kh in 29 gallon and 7.8-8 ph 5kh in 10 gallon. Paramaters have been stable for the past 5 days so maybe the issue is resolved. I'll make an update when I get the tds pen or if the parameters fluctuate.


----------



## 439394929 (May 26, 2020)

439394929 said:


> 439394929 said:
> 
> 
> > Zoidburg said:
> ...


 got some plants today some moneywort, jungle val, and something at petco that's called narrow leaf temple plant. It said low light on the card so let's hope my 2 aqueoun led strips can grow it. Today's paramaters are the same but a guppy fry died in the 29 gall. Checked the water and ammonia was 0-.25 nitrite 0 and nitrate was 25ppm. I think the dead guppy fry raised ammonia because it was pretty big or ammonia was already at .25 for some reason.


----------

