# red wine/black panda shrimp?



## Chipoi84 (Jun 17, 2012)

The colors are more intense.


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## aznrice247 (Feb 1, 2012)

Wine Reds have a more darker red than CRS. Sometimes you might see some black on it , black pandas have solid colors and are completely black compared to some CBS you see. But the biggest difference is that they are Taiwan bees which are more fragile, expensive, and they don't breed as fast as CRS/CBS.


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## Mshen11 (Feb 26, 2013)

thanks for the answer but still more confused... so what is the difference between black panda/wine reds vs one these which claims to be 'vibrant' CRS:

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwinverts&1367961620

"But the biggest difference is that they are Taiwan bees"...
"taiwan bee" doesnt mean much to a new like me when they look all the same


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## Clemsons2k (May 31, 2009)




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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

Clemsons2k said:


>


Rah bop made this guide. 

Basically it is a different breed of Cardinia Cantonese. 

You know how cherry shrimp come in blue, red, yellow, orange, black, ect?

This is another line. Most shrimpers can immediately tell the difference. This is a similar quality to pure red line shrimp, for a cheaper price than higher grades.


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## Chipoi84 (Jun 17, 2012)

Mshen11 said:


> thanks for the answer but still more confused... so what is the difference between black panda/wine reds vs one these which claims to be 'vibrant' CRS:
> 
> http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwinverts&1367961620
> 
> ...


The one in the ad is a pretty good deal, since the seller mated males ebiten prl with regular females crs.


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

If they look the same to you get your eyes checked, they look nothing like crs or CBS, their vibrant colors and they color the opposite where crs and CBS main body is white with red or black spots, and tb wr and bkk are black body and red boy with white


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

i so want that breeding chart as a poster lol.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

dreamer_yoyo typically has top-notch shrimp. 

He was one of the earlier guys who would import PRL shrimp and others.

If you want some very nice 'starter' or 'low grade' Crystal Red Shrimp then the link that you provided would probably be a good place to start.

They aren't Taiwan Bees, obviously, but they should be crisply colored low grade CRS.


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

Well just to let you know dreamer yoyo is a girl. She does import, but make sure you qt the shrimp. I paid a pretty penny for a bunch female f1 mischlings and I did not get all females and they came with dragonfly nymphs and hydra. Her import or her shop in am had both, they killed 8 of my tb in a well established tank I ended up tearing down the whole tank


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## Mshen11 (Feb 26, 2013)

she is also selling mischlings as mentioned by sbarbee54. what happens when you mix them and CRS?

would you get CBSs and maybe king kongs?


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

Nope no bkk would come out just a small % of mischlings and a bunch if cbs

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## Mshen11 (Feb 26, 2013)

sbarbee54 said:


> Nope no bkk would come out just a small % of mischlings and a bunch if cbs
> 
> Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2



ah ok. but mischling x mischling (even if they were decendents of mischling x crs) would *possibly* get bkk?

anyone recommend a good article for newbie about how to figure out results of cross breeding?


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

Mshen11 said:


> ah ok. but mischling x mischling (even if they were decendents of mischling x crs) would *possibly* get bkk?
> 
> anyone recommend a good article for newbie about how to figure out results of cross breeding?


I'd recommend learning the basics of shrimp before delving into TBs. 

I mean like I said, any shrimp keeper can tell the difference between the shrimp you were mentioning, so start slow, learn on neos.


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## rah-bop (Apr 28, 2012)

wicca27 said:


> i so want that breeding chart as a poster lol.


SOON

Getting back to the original question, here's how to tell the difference between crystals and taiwans (wine red/pandas):










These shrimp look really similar, but the fastest way to tell the difference is to look at the faces and the legs. Pandas have really dark faces and legs, while CBS have reddish or transparent colors. The Black color of a CBS tends to look s little more brownish while the panda has a bluish hue.

As the grade increases, crystals get more white and Taiwan bees get more color. So if you see something that looks like this but with more areas of black, chances are it's a panda instead of a crystal black. Not always, though!










I wasn't able to find a perfect 1:1 pattern match like I did in the first comparison, but wine reds and crystal reds come in all the same patterns as the crystal blacks and pandas do. The wine red is to the CRS as the panda is to the CBS. Like before, the wine red has a much more red face and legs. The color quality is also a lot richer and darker.

In general, Taiwan bees often look incredibly nice, with deep colors and bright white shells. There are nice quality crystals out there too but (in my impression) they often are not quite as nice as Taiwans.

I don't know if this helps at all!


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## dreamer_yoyo (May 5, 2013)

sbarbee54 said:


> Well just to let you know dreamer yoyo is a girl. She does import, but make sure you qt the shrimp. I paid a pretty penny for a bunch female f1 mischlings and I did not get all females and they came with dragonfly nymphs and hydra. Her import or her shop in am had both, they killed 8 of my tb in a well established tank I ended up tearing down the whole tank
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad 3 using Tapatalk HD


 Hi, I am regretful for the death of your shrimps. 
The shrimps I sold you are all females, all mature size (about 3/4 inch). I selected the shrimps with ovary, so there's no mis-judgement. You sent me the email asking how I tell a male or female. People who have years of experience keeping shrimp can easily tell the sex at this size. If I sold you any males, I can refund you the money. You can upload the pictures, and we can judge. 
For about 2-3 years, I didn't import. The shrimps i sold you I breed for more than half a year. And they came from a tank with thousand of shrimps. My tanks are in basement. I am located in MA, never seen dragonfly here before. I have sold so many shrimps, and nobody else complain about dragonfly nymph. 
You metioned that you gonna raise the nymph to see where it is coming from. How is the result?


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## Mshen11 (Feb 26, 2013)

rah-bop... ah! now crystal clear  [pun intended]

now my other question remaining is how breeding and the results due to different parents. any good guides on that?


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## dreamer_yoyo (May 5, 2013)

sbarbee54 said:


> Nope no bkk would come out just a small % of mischlings and a bunch if cbs
> 
> Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2


There's no apperance difference between mischilling and cbs/crs. I don't know how you tell the difference between mischillings and cbs/crs. When I breed them, there's very high chance of getting bkk/panda from breeding bkk and female mischillings. just a matter of how many eggs of bkk/panda you gonna get. Usually, the hatching time of bkk/panda is longer than mischillings, and suvival rate is lower as well. If your tank environment is not good, maybe you had bkk/panda babies coming out, but you didn't realize them. and your previous email also metioned that your suvival rate is low. Could this be a reason? Besides that, the chance of getting bkk/panda is unstable. Sometimes, male mischilling and female mischilling may have more bkk/panda babies than male bkk/panda and female mischillings. What I can guarantee is that the mischilling I am selling is from male bkk/panda and female mischilling.


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## Oceangirl (Feb 5, 2013)

Rah bop thank you!! I now understand. I couldn't figure out the grading scale either, even researching and looking at pictures. Your explanation made me see the light.


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## Mshen11 (Feb 26, 2013)

Oceangirl said:


> Rah bop thank you!! I now understand. I couldn't figure out the grading scale either, even researching and looking at pictures. Your explanation made me see the light.


the problem (other than "my eyes" as someone above stated earlier) is that i dont have any real life samples and looking at google images - theyre notoriously mislabeled. i couldnt tell any pattern until it was pointed out explicitly with quality pictures in the above both.

very damn close but yeah i can see differences. is it that apparent in real life shrimps? i cant imagine getting a magnify glass to track down the shrimp a shrimp tank to figure this out.


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## Oceangirl (Feb 5, 2013)

Its the legs and the faces that tell the story.


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

Mshen11 said:


> the problem (other than "my eyes" as someone above stated earlier) is that i dont have any real life samples and looking at google images - theyre notoriously mislabeled. i couldnt tell any pattern until it was pointed out explicitly with quality pictures in the above both.
> 
> very damn close but yeah i can see differences. is it that apparent in real life shrimps? i cant imagine getting a magnify glass to track down the shrimp a shrimp tank to figure this out.


I mean I can see immediately.. The difference for the most part to me is the difference in A- Coloration B- Solidness C- What part of the shrimp is colored. 

So take a normal CRS... The red coloration is in the shell. The WR? Coloration is in the flesh. 

All things you learn as you look at more shrimp.


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

I will not argue on here dreamer but I will have a pm coming your way so we can discuss. I have no reason to lie about it. I will not make this a public talk


But a mischlings x crs will be ver small amount mischlings and some CBS


Mischlings x mischlings will yield mixed results could get some bkk or type tb depending on the mischlings lineage. Could get none, and you will get some hybrid and CBS....

As mentioned in another thread you get more tb off spring when the mischlings is a f5 mischling or later like f6 or f7. That is the new reports out of Taiwan Anyway especially when it is f5 or higher crossed with a tb


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## Mshen11 (Feb 26, 2013)

what do you mean by f1 and f5 and f6, etc..?
is there a good online reference to fill in the blanks - i just re-learned a little bit of my high school biology days and should be able to understand articles on simple genetics calculations

oh yeah... thanks for keeping this thread clean and "professional"!


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

each "f" is the next generation


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

Haha shrimp genetics are anything but simple, and there are few to no guides on them. Just personal experiences on this site are the strongest thing you'll get. 

Find them via the search function


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## Mshen11 (Feb 26, 2013)

that's what ive been trying to do all day... any suggested url from past discussion? genetics i can handle but im having time with shrimp specific terminology what a shrimp's genes represents


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

Mshen11 said:


> that's what ive been trying to do all day... any suggested url from past discussion? genetics i can handle but im having time with shrimp specific terminology what a shrimp's genes represents


Nobody really knows. Soothing Shrimp knows more than most. 

We can't really find out what alleles carry colors, ect. It makes breeding a crap shoot sometimes. 

Message him or check out his threads. Sorry the search function failed you this time. I figured "Shrimp genetics" would turn something up, but it usually does bring good things up. 

I swear every question asked has been asked twelve times .


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

F is the generation tag the number is how many breeds away from first line so f5 would be 5th generation mischling shrimp. Where f1 is the first line from crs/cbs/snow white breed to tiawan bee

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## Shrim'n (Feb 27, 2013)

dreamer_yoyo said:


> There's no apperance difference between mischilling and cbs/crs. I don't know how you tell the difference between mischillings and cbs/crs. When I breed them, there's very high chance of getting bkk/panda from breeding bkk and female mischillings. just a matter of how many eggs of bkk/panda you gonna get. Usually, the hatching time of bkk/panda is longer than mischillings, and suvival rate is lower as well. If your tank environment is not good, maybe you had bkk/panda babies coming out, but you didn't realize them. and your previous email also metioned that your suvival rate is low. Could this be a reason? Besides that, the chance of getting bkk/panda is unstable. Sometimes, male mischilling and female mischilling may have more bkk/panda babies than male bkk/panda and female mischillings. What I can guarantee is that the mischilling I am selling is from male bkk/panda and female mischilling.


I bought some mischling from you as well and I could tell the difference, the ones I got the black wasn't solid and looked kinda faded more grayish. Although I was happy that the female I did get got berried quickly and hatched 6 babies before dying, unfortunately all 6 looks to be more mischling and no bkk/panda and I did keep only the mischling together.


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## dreamer_yoyo (May 5, 2013)

Shrim'n said:


> I bought some mischling from you as well and I could tell the difference, the ones I got the black wasn't solid and looked kinda faded more grayish. Although I was happy that the female I did get got berried quickly and hatched 6 babies before dying, unfortunately all 6 looks to be more mischling and no bkk/panda and I did keep only the mischling together.


You can't determine whether it's a mischilling or not by its color. Coloration could not be the standard. I have both, some are more solid in color, some are lighter in color. 

















This mischilling mother are solid in coloration, and she has a lot of blue eggs, which is going to be the bkk/panda. 

P.S: I am not so sure how to upload the picture. This would be my first try. If it works, I will upload more pictures.


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## dreamer_yoyo (May 5, 2013)

dreamer_yoyo said:


> You can't determine whether it's a mischilling or not by its color. Coloration could not be the standard. I have both, some are more solid in color, some are lighter in color.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, the first time is not working lol. 



















It's working this time.  (but picture is way to big)
This mischilling mother has pretty nice colorations. See all the blue eggs. 



















Thumb URL works much more better. And this mischilling is lighter in coloration.


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## Shrim'n (Feb 27, 2013)

yea, my mischling mama only had brown eggs....out of the 6 babies i did get they all seem to be regular mischling, to bad it died I would love to see if I could've gotten at least 1 bkk/wine out of it ....maybe the 6 babies can do something together


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