# Quite an emergency!



## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Welcome finally to PT!!

the one thing you didn't mention was light duration, since this is the main trigger for algae. Can you cut down duration for sometime and see if that helps? You also didn't give us a plant list? Is it heavily planted? do you have alot of fast growers or nutrient sponges to assist in outcompeting the algae?

i think the UV sterilizer is a good start though. thats an aweful lot of light for a non-pressurized system....may be a culprit also.


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## Ukrainetz (Jul 11, 2007)

Thank you gmccreedy,
The light is on for 12 hours, thats a good idea to cut it down. The plants in the tank are Swords, Annubias, some Java Moss, a couble of moss balls, Cabomba, a Moneywort, some dwarf hairgrass, Micro Swords, Giant Grass, and a couple of plants the names of which I can't recal. One has a leaf a shape of a water lily (but its not on the surface), and the other has small leaves that branch out a lot and are growing quite furiously (biggest plant in the tank to date). You can see them just after they were planted in the pic below.








Unfortunately it doesn't look like that anymore , but there was an extra piece of driftwood added on the other side, along with a bit more plants. Thank you once again!


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## PineyMike (Mar 22, 2006)

Welcome to Planted Tanks. First I might suggest you take some time to read up some more on planted tank basics at Rex Grigg's Site. You seem like you've had experience with tanks and fishkeeping but you are going to need a few pointers with planted tanks. That site is a great place to start. Really concentrate on the CO2 and Nutrient sections. Besides that I can offer a few quick points:
1) That's a TON of light for a tank with no CO2.
2) Seachem's Purigen will help clear the tannins from the wood out of the water once you've fixed the other problems.
3) Flying Fox is not a true SAE. They are not the same. Just look very similar. This site can give you a quick tutorial on the differences in the two.
4) If the owner of the tank does not want to put the money or time into making it a successful planted tank it may be best suggest making it just a regular fish tank and giving up on the planted tank. Without the proper equipment or attention to the tank you'll constantly be fighting an uphill battle. 
5) Your fighting the Ich with 3 different methods at the same time. 2 different chemicals plus salt and higher temp. That might be pretty stressful on the fish and could do more harm than good. 
6) Acid buffer+baking soda is not going to do anything for your CO2.
7) Baking soda is basically an alkaline buffer since it will raise your PH and KH. It has no effect at all on general hardness (GH).


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Throw *Away* the Alkaline Buffer, Acid Buffer and Baking Soda. You do not need to Target Your pH, Kh or Gh. If anything You only need to target a Gh of about 3. If its Higher--that's Fine. If its Lower--that's probably fine also--Your plants will tell You one way or the other once You learn How to read them. Leave Your pH and Kh alone. Seriously. If You want Flunky advice--then head on over to Here. If You want sound advice then stick around......

You have developed "Green Water Algae" aka GW. Something negative probably happened to Your cycle--maybe Your were just rooting around in the substrate moving plants or whatever. The tank accumulated too much ammonia (NH4) into the water column. The cloudiness You saw was probably a Bacterial Bloom from a population explosion generated by all of the ammonia. Before the bacteria could get it under control--the GW showed up.

You can try to wait out the GW, but that may take a while. Otherwise, You can use a UV and/or Diatom Filter to clear it up. I don't recall the other options--I've never dealt with GW. Blackout? Can't remember if water changes (WC) are Good or Bad. You'll just have to surf around or hope someone else comes along with those answers. 

The temp for ich needs to get up to 82F, preferably 86F. 86F and Salt should do the trick--without the other stuff.

You have been running ~340w for 12hrs/day on that 125g tank. That's 2.72wpg (watts per gal)--which is way too high for No C02 and No Ferts. And Higher than it needs to be on a tank that size. You can run that wattage, but You have a learning curve to get through first. Can You run 1x130w and 2x40w? If so try that for about 6-8hrs/day until You get everything under control. If not, let us know what combinations You can run.

Your post indicates that You now have 2x 250w heaters--If Yes, then crank the temp up to 86F and do Your Salt. If a UV and/or Diatom Filter are not options--then You'll have to search for other methods on the GW.

Zero Nitrates is *Not* a Good thing in a Planted Tank. Seachem Products are Great--I use a lot of them. But their ferts are going to get awfully expensive on a tank that size. Head on over to Rex's and pick up 1lb of KN03 and K2S04 and 1/2lb of KH2P04 and 1/2lb CSM+B. For ~$20shipped You should be in Good shape on Ferts for a while. He also offer the Highest Quality C02 equipment that You are going to find for Planted Tanks--so check out his menu. While Your at it, a Good Starter Planted Tank Guide is at Rex's other site  here.

Turn down the lighting. If the Owner won't cough up for C02 than the lighting is going to have to go way down--permanently. Get rid of the ich, and find out about getting rid of the GW. Get some Ferts. No doubt that I've missed 2-3 things, but this is a decent start....

Let Us Know.....

HTH


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## Ukrainetz (Jul 11, 2007)

Thanks for the pointers guys!
BTW Yes I indeed am a fan of Rex's site, that was the beginning to my own 29 gal system. It seems pretty updated so I'll go through it again to see if there is anything important that was added. 

I will definitely turn the lights down, I can run 1 of the bulbs on each PC lamp, along with the 2 40's, for a total of 210Watts or 1.68WPG. The reason I added that much lights is because the tank came with the two PC fixtures, but there were dark spots along the overflow and nothing would grow there (such as Giant Hair Grass, to try and cover up the ugly blue overflow). 

Thank you for the info on the SAE. I did some research on them, but the fella at the LFS called them Flying Foxes, so I thought it was the same thing! But I will definitely buy the right ones now. 

I will reduce the ICH treatments. The reason for so much medication was that I read about little success with any one of those medications. The stuff that works well I couldn't use. Ich attack is not an invasive chemical apparently, and it is safe for all aquarium inhabitants. Its derived from natural plant extracts (or so it says). Salt wise, I don't know if the concentration I provided is even high enough to be considered treatment. I read you have to dose about 5 times that amount to really cure ICH. 

Thank you on the fertilizing tips. I was asking myself the same question when I began dosing the Seachem stuff. According to directions, the tank would consume a $20 bottle of each chemical about once a month. I didn't think that lack of Nitrate is such a big problem as the fish load in the tank is still going to increase. However I did read a couple of posts somewhere encouraging not to add nitrate to the tank. I guess it could be dangerous in high enough levels, but from my own experience having buildup of over 120ppm in the tank did not cost me a singe fish . 

I don't know if I really need purigen or not. I've looked at it before, but something is telling me its not good for permanent filtration as it will filter out the ferts. Perhaps its good to use after things like medication? (I currently have carbon on hand for that purpose). Tannic acids really don't hurt fish, and if anything, they kill some bacteria and parasites (such as ICH??!?). They will eventually be diluted to nothing with water changes. 

Now as far as CO2, if I have to, I guess I could easily hook something up. My idea is to simply go DIY, but under supply it. That ought to prevent violent swings and toxic co2 concentrations, as the system will be incapable of providing too much of it. At least it would be better than nothing. And to dissolve it, I could either get a good reactor with bioballs, or make my own with a gravel filter and use it with a pump inside of the sump. Or i could even let it trickle out underneath the bio media in the sump. I'm sure I could come up with many ideas about how to go with dissolving the precious gas, and with a decent KH of 4-6deg there shouldn't be any change in the pH. (thats how I supply my 29gal, and its looking good). The staff at the shop could refill the DIY system as often as needed. Correct me if I am wrong about anything. 

Now I got a quick Q: On his site, one of Rex's treatments for Hair Algae is Excel. What is that as the only product I know of by that name is a plant fertilizer?

As for the cause of GW, you got me thinking with the ammonia possibility. Whenever I do water changes, I drain the water out of the sump, and then let some siphon through the water return lines out of the tank. But when I refill the tank with water, I always do it in the sump after adding some Prime dechlorinator. Is it possible that the water doesn't get enough time to dechlorinate as it fills up, and kills some of the bacteria on the bio media, hence causing a spike in ammonia? 

Sorry for the long response but I think we're moving in the right direction here. I think we'll get it solved soon. I'll try and post some before and after pics if someone could tell me how to post them in the thread. Thank you all!


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## oblongshrimp (Jul 26, 2006)

DIY CO2 on a tank that big is going to be WAY more trouble then its worth. You really need to go pressurized. I don't think you could keep the levels of CO2 high enough otherwise and you won't have to rely on the staff at the shop to be constantly filling up half a dozen bottles for a DIY system. The pressurized also allows you to keep a more consistent level of CO2 which is very important to keeping the tank algae free.

I agree with the other posts about getting rid of the acids and bases and other junk used to adjust the pH as it is not needed. Also adjusting the KH or pH will not increase or decrease the amount of CO2, in fact using chemicals to adjust either of those makes that chart inaccurate and a drop checker is your best bet to ensure your CO2 is correct.

Raising the temp and adding salt (if it won't harm your plants) is your best bet against ich. I can't recall if clown loaches are sensitive to salt but I seem to remember they were.

Against the greenwater I would try and get a UV filter. They are not that expensive and will prevent the problem from coming back. In addition they will kill parasites (like ich) and other microbes in the water if the flow-rate is correct.

To post pics you need to use a image hosting website like photobucket.


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## Blacksunshine (Oct 11, 2006)

I didn't notice anyone saying it so I will. Flying fox's and SAE are not the same fish. one is useless the other is decent for hair algae. the one with the silver stripe above the black lateral line is a flying fox. Stay away from these.


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## oblongshrimp (Jul 26, 2006)

o yes i forgot to mention this. SAE's and flying foxes are not the same thing. Sometimes true SAE's are labeled as flying fox or Siamese flying fox or all sorts of other things. Sometimes in a tank of flying foxes you will see a few true SAE's. I would recommend looking around and finding out how to identify the two different kinds before trying to buy them. Also get the young ones if you get any as they are more apt to eat algae.


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

Excel is the fertilizer you are thinking of, it is a seachem product that doubles as an algicide, although they don't tell you that on the bottle. Be careful when using it because it can kill inverts and cause melting in some plants. I don't know enough about it, so you should ask some more.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

You are being given sound advice. No doubt that I will repeat some of it, but its easier then trying to remember what has already been covered...:tongue: 



Ukrainetz said:


> I will definitely turn the lights down, I can run 1 of the bulbs on each PC lamp, along with the 2 40's, for a total of 210Watts or 1.68WPG. The reason I added that much lights is because the tank came with the two PC fixtures, but there were dark spots along the overflow and nothing would grow there (such as Giant Hair Grass, to try and cover up the ugly blue overflow).


Lights are the driving force for the plants. Once the lighting level and duration are determined--then You get Your C02 and Ferts in line with the lighting. 

Lights are the Accelerator/Decelerator of the system: 

More light=More Demand for C02 and Ferts. 
More light=smaller margin of error.

Less Light=Less Demand. 
Less light=greater margin of error.

Intensity and duration can be played will to achieve the same goal. 




> I will reduce the ICH treatments. The reason for so much medication was that I read about little success with any one of those medications. The stuff that works well I couldn't use. Ich attack is not an invasive chemical apparently, and it is safe for all aquarium inhabitants. Its derived from natural plant extracts (or so it says). Salt wise, I don't know if the concentration I provided is even high enough to be considered treatment. I read you have to dose about 5 times that amount to really cure ICH.


The info about the clown loach may very well be accurate. So, You may want to look at that. I haven't dealt with ich in a number of yrs, so I don't recall the salt concentration. Its too easy to look up, if needed. The salt helps kill the ich, while the temp speeds up the life cycle and shortens the treatment period. The higher the temp--the shorter the life cycle. Within reason, of course.....




> Thank you on the fertilizing tips. I was asking myself the same question when I began dosing the Seachem stuff. According to directions, the tank would consume a $20 bottle of each chemical about once a month. I didn't think that lack of Nitrate is such a big problem as the fish load in the tank is still going to increase. However I did read a couple of posts somewhere encouraging not to add nitrate to the tank. I guess it could be dangerous in high enough levels, but from my own experience having buildup of over 120ppm in the tank did not cost me a singe fish .


Bottoming out (Zero) any nutrient in a planted tank is not Good. You can balance Your dosing with the bioload of the tank--But You still do not want to bottom anything out. You need *some* N. 10-20ppm is Good. Higher is *not* harmful to the fish. Bottoming out (Limitation) is one of the main causes of algae. The dry ferts are going to be *Much* Cheaper. So, have the owner invest that savings into a Good Pressurized C02 system.




> I don't know if I really need purigen or not. I've looked at it before, but something is telling me its not good for permanent filtration as it will filter out the ferts. Perhaps its good to use after things like medication? (I currently have carbon on hand for that purpose). Tannic acids really don't hurt fish, and if anything, they kill some bacteria and parasites (such as ICH??!?). They will eventually be diluted to nothing with water changes.



Purigen is *Excellent* stuff. It will not bother Your ferts and nothing beats it for water clarity. *Nothing.* I own a UV and a Diatom filter--Purigen is waaaay Better. It will remove the Tannins and Humic acids. That's the only reason that I don't use it in my main setup(--I add Black Water Extracts). But if You don't want/need the tannins--get the Purigen.




> Now as far as CO2, if I have to, I guess I could easily hook something up. My idea is to simply go DIY, but under supply it. That ought to prevent violent swings and toxic co2 concentrations, as the system will be incapable of providing too much of it. At least it would be better than nothing. And to dissolve it, I could either get a good reactor with bioballs, or make my own with a gravel filter and use it with a pump inside of the sump. Or i could even let it trickle out underneath the bio media in the sump. I'm sure I could come up with many ideas about how to go with dissolving the precious gas, and with a decent KH of 4-6deg there shouldn't be any change in the pH. (thats how I supply my 29gal, and its looking good). The staff at the shop could refill the DIY system as often as needed. Correct me if I am wrong about anything.


DIY C02 is possible, but really not very practical at all on a tank this size. When You start adding up the cost of all the sugar and yeast over a yrs time--that's money that could have just been spent toward a pressurized system. And that's *Not* including Time and Labor. Underdosing C02 is not a Good idea at all. Its just begging for one issue after another. Remember--Lighting sets the pace, Not Ferts, Not C02. DIY C02 is just Unstable--That in itself is going to cause You problems. Also, if You have a Trickle filter, wet/dry, etc--then You are going to have C02 issues. People have sorted it out--I'm just not one of them....:tongue: Again: Forget about Your Kh and pH. A lower Kh is Better and pH fluctuations from C02 does not harm the fish. You are going to need to put aside a lot of the "Fish stuff" that You have learned. Much of it isn't accurate or true. Take the time to read these threads:

Low or no KH and low PH without a "crash"??

 Low KH and pH crash

pH = 5.5, what now?

Forget what You think You know about Kh, Gh, and pH. Its a New World--with or without Plants.





> Now I got a quick Q: On his site, one of Rex's treatments for Hair Algae is Excel. What is that as the only product I know of by that name is a plant fertilizer?


Its the same Excel that You are thinking of. Seachem realizes that Excel has algaecidal properties, but because of all the laws and regulations involved--they do not and have no intention of advertising, listing, selling it as an algaecide. Its pure politics. Its a Great algaecide in many situations. Check out this Sticky when You get a chance:

Excel as a treatment for BBA? Experiences?

I haven't read through it in quite a while, but Excel works for more than just BBA....




> As for the cause of GW, you got me thinking with the ammonia possibility. Whenever I do water changes, I drain the water out of the sump, and then let some siphon through the water return lines out of the tank. But when I refill the tank with water, I always do it in the sump after adding some Prime dechlorinator. Is it possible that the water doesn't get enough time to dechlorinate as it fills up, and kills some of the bacteria on the bio media, hence causing a spike in ammonia?


Not likely. Prime works instantly. But the description You gave indicates an ammonia spike. Where it came from--I don't know. But I wasn't there, so its hard to say.


> Sorry for the long response but I think we're moving in the right direction here. I think we'll get it solved soon. I'll try and post some before and after pics if someone could tell me how to post them in the thread. Thank you all!


Long responses are Good. It shows that You care and are willing to invest in the resolutions needed. Too many folks around just want us to come to their house and fix everything for them. They don't really give a Hoot--and it shows! But it shows when someone is worth helping too....!

HTH


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Naja...sweet man. well explained. Just to hit on Purigen...the stuff is awesome if used properly. It will make your water very nice and clear. However, i still reccomend Acurel F as a supplement to it under extreme circumstances.

Excel...great stuff. Used wisely, you can do good things.

ferts. Go dry. It may sound intimidating at first, but trust me, there are tons of links on here for dosing techniques and you can make it as complicated or as simple as possible. You said it yourself, 20 bucks a month in fertilizers...how about a few bucks a year! In reality, fertilizers are the cheapest thing for an aquarium.

But again...naja hit it all pretty well. Keep us posted here on your progress and keep the questions coming if needed.

On a side note. Prime is a dechlorinator and also converts ammonia to a nontoxic form that is dissolved by your biofilter. It also "detoxify's" Nitrites and Nitrates, yet i still have yet to see what that actually means in terms of whether it kills them, or just dillutes them. So, the chances of you having an ammonia spike AFTER adding Prime is highly unlikely, unless you have some serious issues going on in there. Dead fish perhaps? 
Prime also lasts for about 24 hours.


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## Ukrainetz (Jul 11, 2007)

Thanks for all the help guys! I've definitely found a lot of answers in a much shorter period of time than before! I'll get to cleaning up the tank as soon as I'm done with this post. 

I've figured for the ICH, I'll drop the meds and finish off with heat and salt (cannot believe heat will actually kill ich!!! thanks for the site!) I'll have a total of about 1.5TBS/5Gal of salt by the end of this weekend, which I will start diluting with water changes starting early next week. I'll try to get the temps to 85-86F throughout this, and part of next week. 

I looked but didn't really hit a jackpot on Excel doses yet, but I assume even the recommended dose helps fight the algae. I read something like 5X the amount is toxic to fish. But I'll work on that next week due to all the junk I already got in water (and the temps). I got an aeration strip in the sump as was recommended with the meds and high heat. But either way, starting next week I'll try to get my hands on some young true SAE's (anyone know a breeder in Fairfield County CT?

I'll order some dry fertilizers from Rex, and probably get my hands on some Purigen. Should I steer completely clear of using carbon and use Purigen instead for those special occasions (or even permanently)?? 

I did a blackout on the tank this Mon and Tue, and it looks like that killed some GWA, so today I'll gravel vac, do a WC, and put some Acurel F in with a micron filter. I'll have a talk with the owner about investing in a UV module, and co2 system. The truth is that once I'm done and everything is good, the employees will perform most of the aquarium work. I have a feeling they'll be calling me at times when the water starts glowing in the dark or something :tongue: . 

I have read about using trickle filters on planted tanks before, and there are mixed opinions out there. This time the tank has it built in so there was no choice. I actually want to install an overflow and a sump on my 29gal, for the reason of keeping a constant water level, and hiding the co2 reactor. As far as I'm concerned if I set it up right, the only area with surface disturbance will be the overflow. But in the case of the big aquarium, it actually does have a trickle filter, and I don't know whether it will evaporate co2 at an overwhelming rate. Now that I think about it, DIY co2 couldn't even possibly work in this case. A pressurized system might be the only thing capable of keeping up with the co2 loss. 

Now in terms of KH GH and pH, I am kind of shocked to learn that people let their setups "naturally" balance to any value. Does Rex Grigg know about this ?:hihi: It certainly is a nice approach, and I favor it very much since I somewhat practice it myself. However in my case I let the water stabilize around values such as 6.8-7.2 pH. Neither was I ever crazy about KH other than having it around 3-5deg. I figured that on my setup that worked perfectly and maintained that fairly constant pH without any input from me. But reaching a pH of 6 or lower, or above 8 I would say is intolerable. Some fish are fairly fragile and if it won't kill them, at least it would stress them. 
A little honesty: When I first started with aquariums, I reached pH levels of less than 6 (off chart  ) due to the driftwood tannins. After correcting the problem, I was a repeat offender with a lower than 6 pH, due to buildup of nitrate. That is how I got into the plants in the first place, why fight the nitrates, when the plants could use them? 

Basically I don't know if I should experiment on that setup, as it is going to include many expensive, oddball fish. My idea at first was to make an oddball community (he wants cool looking fish) with pH around 7.2. But you tell me, the tank will have a Black Ghost Knife, 3 Rope Fish, maybe a Fire Eel (I'm still not sure if its too aggressive), Angel Fish, Leopard Gouramis, Red Tailed Sharks, a couple of Plecos, SAE's, Red-clawed Crabs, plus anything I forgot about for now. Bamboo shrimp are cool but I'm still not sure if they'll survive with the rest of the predators. 

I always liked Seachem products, but you guys say to chuck the acid and alkaline buffers? I chose them since they seemed to be a non-invasive way to control water hardness, and stabilize pH (they say they are for planted aquariums). Plus they come in a neater container than say...bakind soda :tongue: .

Oh and one last piece of info is I like using Cycle, always helped me with tank setup, but you think it could've caused the bacterial bloom? Thank you all for contributing, and off I go fishing! 

In regards to lighting, even though there is 340watts above, doesn't the fact that not all of that light gets into the tank drop the intensitiy significantly?


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Ok, here's My Opinion:



Ukrainetz said:


> The truth is that once I'm done and everything is good, the employees will perform most of the aquarium work. I have a feeling they'll be calling me at times when the water starts glowing in the dark or something :tongue: .


Under those conditions, I would suggest that You just forget the plants and make it a fish only tank. You have employees who don't care. An Owner that doesn't care enough. And the only Real Caretaker will be absent. Yes, They *will* be calling You. And You will *Always* be the Bad Guy. It will somehow always be *Your* fault--even if they don't say it to Your Face. Its the same principle as working on or building a PC for someone. I fixed Your PC and now 3yrs later there's something wrong and--somehow--its _*My*_ Fault.

That's My Opinion.







Ukrainetz said:


> I'll order some dry fertilizers from Rex, and probably get my hands on some Purigen. Should I steer completely clear of using carbon and use Purigen instead for those special occasions (or even permanently)??


Just use the Purigen permanently. Use carbon to clean out any meds, etc--otherwise its really not necessary.




> I did a blackout on the tank this Mon and Tue, and it looks like that killed some GWA, so today I'll gravel vac, do a WC, and put some Acurel F in with a micron filter. I'll have a talk with the owner about investing in a UV module, and co2 system. The truth is that once I'm done and everything is good, the employees will perform most of the aquarium work. I have a feeling they'll be calling me at times when the water starts glowing in the dark or something :tongue: .


Don't be surprised if it comes right back. If You have access to a micron filter then run it, run it, run it.



> I have read about using trickle filters on planted tanks before, and there are mixed opinions out there. This time the tank has it built in so there was no choice. I actually want to install an overflow and a sump on my 29gal, for the reason of keeping a constant water level, and hiding the co2 reactor. As far as I'm concerned if I set it up right, the only area with surface disturbance will be the overflow. But in the case of the big aquarium, it actually does have a trickle filter, and I don't know whether it will evaporate co2 at an overwhelming rate. Now that I think about it, DIY co2 couldn't even possibly work in this case. A pressurized system might be the only thing capable of keeping up with the co2 loss.


The trickle filter is just another on the growing list of reasons to just go fish-only.




> Now in terms of KH GH and pH, I am kind of shocked to learn that people let their setups "naturally" balance to any value. Does Rex Grigg know about this ?:hihi: It certainly is a nice approach, and I favor it very much since I somewhat practice it myself. However in my case I let the water stabilize around values such as 6.8-7.2 pH. Neither was I ever crazy about KH other than having it around 3-5deg. I figured that on my setup that worked perfectly and maintained that fairly constant pH without any input from me. But reaching a pH of 6 or lower, or above 8 I would say is intolerable. Some fish are fairly fragile and if it won't kill them, at least it would stress them.
> A little honesty: When I first started with aquariums, I reached pH levels of less than 6 (off chart  ) due to the driftwood tannins. After correcting the problem, I was a repeat offender with a lower than 6 pH, due to buildup of nitrate. That is how I got into the plants in the first place, why fight the nitrates, when the plants could use them?


Evidence is contrary to what You are saying. On my main system I run a Kh of ~1.75, Gh as low as 1 (usually~3) and pH is about 6, but I've had it lower. Plenty of others out there with sensitive fish, plants, inverts, etc--that show many like the lower pH, kH and Gh. You'll just have to keep checking it out enough to satisfy Yourself.




> Basically I don't know if I should experiment on that setup, as it is going to include many expensive, oddball fish. My idea at first was to make an oddball community (he wants cool looking fish) with pH around 7.2. But you tell me, the tank will have a Black Ghost Knife, 3 Rope Fish, maybe a Fire Eel (I'm still not sure if its too aggressive), Angel Fish, Leopard Gouramis, Red Tailed Sharks, a couple of Plecos, SAE's, Red-clawed Crabs, plus anything I forgot about for now. Bamboo shrimp are cool but I'm still not sure if they'll survive with the rest of the predators.


Again, My Opinion is: get it setup fish-only and do Your best to walk away. Otherwise, You've got a lot of headaches in Your Future....:biggrin: 




> I always liked Seachem products, but you guys say to chuck the acid and alkaline buffers? I chose them since they seemed to be a non-invasive way to control water hardness, and stabilize pH (they say they are for planted aquariums). Plus they come in a neater container than say...bakind soda :tongue: .


Get a TDS meter and You'll see how "non-invasive" they really are. TDSs effect fish, etc more than Gh, Kh or pH. 1/4teasp of acid buffer will raise the TDS of 1 gal RODI (0TDS) by ~770. Then throw Alkaline Buffer or Baking Soda on top of that. You know not what You do.....




> Oh and one last piece of info is I like using Cycle, always helped me with tank setup, but you think it could've caused the bacterial bloom? Thank you all for contributing, and off I go fishing!


Try Seachem's Stability. 4yrs shelf-life and works very well. If the tank was cycled to begin with then there should have been enough bacteria to generate a bloom, if a lot of NH4 was released into the water column.




> In regards to lighting, even though there is 340watts above, doesn't the fact that not all of that light gets into the tank drop the intensitiy significantly?


It all depends upon what kind of lighting it is, how far from the water surface, how deep the tank is, etc, etc, etc--lots of variables. But even with bad quality light--340w is quite a bit on a tank that size...the WPG rule breaks down on larger tanks.

HTH


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## Cheesehead Cory (Mar 30, 2007)

I know I'm just a newb, but why hasn't anyone suggested just going low tech planted. Leave the lights the way they are now, and just have them fertilize weekly-ish. No high light/CO2 issues to deal with, less battling with algae, and nobody has to trim plants constantly. If they employ any monkeys, you could train one of them to do the tank maintenance.

Am I missing something here?


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Cheesehead Cory said:


> Am I missing something here?


I could be wrong, but, Personally, I think You are missing something....

I don't get the impression that the *Owner* of this tank set out wanting a *Planted* tank. I think they just wanted a nice big fish tank full of odd-ball cool--WoW!--looking fish. That makes all the difference in the world. The Owner calls the shots--especially when it comes to money.

What happens when the monkey quits, gets fired or falls over dead? Then a new monkey has to be trained. That's not such an issue, but between now and the time everything is sorted out--somebody has to do the sorting out. Whether its high light, low light or any other light. Does the Owner even care enough about any of this to be able to train the next flunky? Why is the Owner not here asking questions and learning this stuff? My Guess: Because they just wanted a nice big fish tank full of odd-ball cool--WoW!--looking fish. Not C02, ferts, dosing schedule, algae and everything else involved. Just a big fish tank.

Low tech has its own issues that have to be sorted out. Dose? Yes or No? If Yes, How Much? How Often? Water Changes? If Yes, How Much? How Often? Algae? From where did it come? What's causing it? How do we Fix it? Low tech is not a simple answer, and from what I can tell: The Lower the Tech--the more of an *Art* that it becomes.....


Finally, Ukrainetz is going to be the glue that holds all of this together. Odds are Good that they are not going to call him until after a problem is a problem. When it could have been easily fixed--they are not going to notice, so they are not going to call.

If You want to see how well things work when people try to train any monkey off the street--just run down to walmart and take a look around at their tanks--9 out of 10 will tell You everything You need to know.

If this was Ukrainetz tank--then I would say Go-for-It. But its not. And He's not going to be accounted for on a daily basis. So, unless he wants to marry this tank--I say: go fish-only.


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## Ukrainetz (Jul 11, 2007)

Oh goodness, Naja002 I have a feeling you're completely right about it. I don't think I realized at the time what I sort of got myself into. I actually had that happen to me with someone's computer. It was someone I knew that had me help them with their computer a little, and boom, before I knew it they wanted me whenever somethings wrong or its acting slow. Definitely don't want to get involved with that here. 

My plan is, once I'm all finished, to give them my, and a couple of quality shops' phone numbers for tank service. I would off course charge less than the other places, and I would probably give better advice than them too. But since I'm not always available, I couldn't help them all the time, and they would either need to find the answers and do the work themselves or call one of the services. 

Going fish only would be a gigantic process for me, and I just don't have the time. I'm pretty much all set with the tank. In a couple of more weeks, I'll have more fishes in it, and everything will be squared (including ICH and GW). So I'm going to have to leave the plants and the current setup alone most likely. The reason I went with a planted tank is that I found it much more self sustained than a non planted tank. Especially in this case, vacuuming the gravel is next to impossible on a weekly basis. Just too many good things come from having plants. I feel that even water conditions in a non planted tank are much harder to deal with. Tell me what you guys think about this.

The owner actually asked me about saltwater and reef, and oh boy would that turn out to be an instant disaster?!!! I recommended either going with fish only or a planted tank, and he basically made the decision. But when I bought all the plants I was conscious about the light demands of the plants, and I think most, if not all, of these plants can survive in low light and do pretty well. I mean even the anubias are shooting out new leaves and are looking pretty good other than the hair algae and traces of diatoms that are left on them. The giant hair grass is slowly thinning out however. 

Today I cleaned the tank, threw in a micron pad for a few hours with some Acurel F, and did a water change. The tank is almost completely clear now, and everyone is getting happier :icon_conf. All the clowns are gone :icon_cry:, I guess the ICH problem was way too far by the time I got there. I did retrieve a small skull from the tank (perhaps a clown?). From here on I'm thinking of starting to lower the temps on Monday, and starting to slowly dilute the salt. What is your opinion on maintenance for a low tech plant tank? I mean my tank had one Amazon Sword in it and it literally prospered with no input from me at all (i guess it enjoyed the nitrate and thats how it all started ). 

So I guess my question now is, should I still bother with the dry ferts (or any ferts at all?). Maybe all I really need are small doses of the micro's, and lets say a regular use of Excel (could help them avoid algae too). Is there any way of telling when the plants are getting too much light? I figured we could run just enough lights, before any algae starts appearing at all. I'll definitely stop using buffers, and perhaps get some peat to lower the pH if it gets too high. Baking soda will probably have to do if the water gets too acidic, but I'm going to recommend letting it be, to see if it will stabilize at a certain value. Sounds like Purigen will make an excellent addition to their setup, as things will get imbalanced with even a little neglect. 

Pretty much all they'll have to do is clean the filter, do the water changes, and dose whatever ferts we decide. I'm sure the plants won't grow all that fast or look their best, but I think it will be better than those nasty plastic ones, or some pvc piping :hihi: . Also does anyone know any good breeders they have had experience with from around here? (CT) The ICH was a complimentary gift by the aquarium department at Petco.
I pretty much want the tank to get more or less stabilized, and set them on their way. Thank you for all the help guys, I'll try to get some pics posted soon, including my own tank with my setup.


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## Cheesehead Cory (Mar 30, 2007)

Solution: the owner is the monkey.

I didn't mean to imply that getting a low tech tank balanced is monkey work (God knows I'd be begging for trouble in my low tech if I did), only that once it is, the ongoing maintenance should be. You would think the owner would show up at his store at least once a week, which would be plenty.

I just thought the advice was only covering extremes. Poster asks for help with a planted tank that is not his own (notice he didn't ask if he should go planted)
First advice: gear up for high tech/high maintenance. 
Second advice: give up, scrap what you've already all but completed.
It's a little like the patient that raises his arm and tells the doctor "It hurts when I do this", and the doctor replies "Stop doing that". Ukrainetz might not have realized what he got himself into in this deal, but to completely back out, I think, would lose face.

You could try going without any dry ferts, but you should be able to grow more and healthier if you do fertilize. Read Tom Barr's low tech article on his web site. http://www.barrreport.com/articles/433-non-co2-methods.html?highlight=non+CO2


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Ukrainetz said:


> Oh goodness, Naja002 I have a feeling you're completely right about it. I don't think I realized at the time what I sort of got myself into. I actually had that happen to me with someone's computer. It was someone I knew that had me help them with their computer a little, and boom, before I knew it they wanted me whenever somethings wrong or its acting slow. Definitely don't want to get involved with that here.


I really wasn't sure if the Owner was a really Good Friend of Yours, or exactly what the situation is.



> My plan is, once I'm all finished, to give them my, and a couple of quality shops' phone numbers for tank service. I would off course charge less than the other places, and I would probably give better advice than them too. But since I'm not always available, I couldn't help them all the time, and they would either need to find the answers and do the work themselves or call one of the services.



Charging for Your Time/Services is the Best idea--it will help keep them in check when they know they'll have to write a check each time. But the other edge of that sword is them not calling until a problem is past the point of a quick/easy fix....



> Going fish only would be a gigantic process for me, and I just don't have the time. I'm pretty much all set with the tank. In a couple of more weeks, I'll have more fishes in it, and everything will be squared (including ICH and GW). So I'm going to have to leave the plants and the current setup alone most likely. The reason I went with a planted tank is that I found it much more self sustained than a non planted tank. Especially in this case, vacuuming the gravel is next to impossible on a weekly basis. Just too many good things come from having plants. I feel that even water conditions in a non planted tank are much harder to deal with. Tell me what you guys think about this.


Honestly, I have no idea why going fish-only would be a gigantic process. Seems to me that the tank is setup. Yank the plants. That's it. Help the Owner determine how often WCs need to be done and How much. No Big Deal. You still have to add the fish either way. No C02, No Ferts, No determining light levels. Nothing. Feed the Fish and do water changes. Forget about ph, Kh, Gh and learn from experience that they don't matter. The reason You have such a hard time with water conditions in a non-planted tank is because You have spent so much Time, money and chemicals--chasing Ghosts. The type of fish, their Food type, frequency and quantity will determine how often to change the water and how much to change. Its a No Brainer.

I got into planted tanks for the same reason--Filtration. 2yrs later, I'm still learning and still have a lot to learn.




> The owner actually asked me about saltwater and reef, and oh boy would that turn out to be an instant disaster?!!! I recommended either going with fish only or a planted tank, and he basically made the decision. But when I bought all the plants I was conscious about the light demands of the plants, and I think most, if not all, of these plants can survive in low light and do pretty well. I mean even the anubias are shooting out new leaves and are looking pretty good other than the hair algae and traces of diatoms that are left on them. The giant hair grass is slowly thinning out however.


Stick around Reefers show up and say this is harder. I seriously doubt that it is, but that comment has been made more than once. Just a new learning curve. If You are interested in taking it low-light--its Your best bet....




> What is your opinion on maintenance for a low tech plant tank? I mean my tank had one Amazon Sword in it and it literally prospered with no input from me at all (i guess it enjoyed the nitrate and thats how it all started ).


It can be fairly simple. But there's still a learning curve. It depends entirely on the motivation of the Owner.




> So I guess my question now is, should I still bother with the dry ferts (or any ferts at all?). Maybe all I really need are small doses of the micro's, and lets say a regular use of Excel (could help them avoid algae too). Is there any way of telling when the plants are getting too much light? I figured we could run just enough lights, before any algae starts appearing at all. I'll definitely stop using buffers, and perhaps get some peat to lower the pH if it gets too high. Baking soda will probably have to do if the water gets too acidic, but I'm going to recommend letting it be, to see if it will stabilize at a certain value. Sounds like Purigen will make an excellent addition to their setup, as things will get imbalanced with even a little neglect.


For ~$20 I would say its better to have them around then not have them and need them. What You need and how much will depend upon a lot of variables--first one is: Light. With 210w over that 125g You will probably need some ferts and some C02. So, the light probably needs to still come down some more. You need to surf around and find out where to start on the lights--remember the WPG rule of thumb breaks down on larger tanks starting at ~125g. Having Excel around as an Algaecide is a Good idea. Using it regularly on a tank that size is a Bad idea. Way too expensive. Just get pressurized C02.

EDIT:

*"With 210w over that 125g You will probably need some ferts and some C02."*

Ok, apologies. I take that back. For some reason my brain was registering that at ~2wpg, but its not. Its only ~1.68wpg. You may be ok with that, but someone else would need to confirm. :thumbsup:


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Cheesehead Cory said:


> Solution: the owner is the monkey.


I agree completely, but that's the key. The Owner has to have decent clue--regardless of tank type--or be willing to engage a "Service." Any other route probably isn't going to work very well long-term.




> I didn't mean to imply that getting a low tech tank balanced is monkey work (God knows I'd be begging for trouble in my low tech if I did), only that once it is, the ongoing maintenance should be. You would think the owner would show up at his store at least once a week, which would be plenty.


Even if the Owner is married to his business- it doesn't mean that he's motivated, or that he wouldn't be too distracted by all the other things invloved in running a business.




> I just thought the advice was only covering extremes. Poster asks for help with a planted tank that is not his own (notice he didn't ask if he should go planted)


I've given him the best advice that I have to offer. The advice really wasn't about extremes--it was based upon the information available. If the unmotivated onwer's employee(s) are going to take care of the tank--Keep It Simple. Very Simple. Like fish-only simple. 




> First advice: gear up for high tech/high maintenance.


First advice was to turn down the lighting and get the GW and ich in order.



> Second advice: give up, scrap what you've already all but completed.


Second advice was based upon the main planted tank driver: Light.

Third advice was based upon all the realities of the situation. I still say go fish-only. But its not my decision.




> It's a little like the patient that raises his arm and tells the doctor "It hurts when I do this", and the doctor replies "Stop doing that". Ukrainetz might not have realized what he got himself into in this deal, but to completely back out, I think, would lose face.


The intent was not to actually just *Walk Away*. It was to get things setup as he had a agreed to do and then start distancing himself from the project. Leave it up to the owner to sink or swim. He seems to have gotten the meaning.....:thumbsup:


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## Ukrainetz (Jul 11, 2007)

Thanks again guys. I've had an awesome weekend up at Maine, in a cabin by a lake, followed by a loaded week of work (oh well), but finally things are looking good again. Tank is perfectly fine (i got 1.68WPG for 8 hours), easing on the temps, and diluting the salt slowly. Going to go try to find true SAE's today, and maybe a few more Otto's. 

Would you guys recommend adding any salt to a planted tank at all? I have mixed feelings because a little salt is good for fish (i do 1tsp / 5gal), but as I know, salt causes a lower O2 saturation level in the tank. I'm not all that concerned about my tank since it usually reaches 110% saturation by the evening, but for the big aquarium, would you recommend it? (less things for the monkeys to dose?)

Thanks a lot for all your input, I'll try to post pics by tonight to show what you all have done :icon_wink


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## tropicalfish (Mar 29, 2007)

I read that you were using salt for ich treatment. Get RID of it. Salt is NOT necessary, despite what the pet store tries to convince you, and is not beneficial to plants either.


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## Ukrainetz (Jul 11, 2007)

*Flourish EXCEL*



tropicalfish said:


> I read that you were using salt for ich treatment. Get RID of it. Salt is NOT necessary, despite what the pet store tries to convince you, and is not beneficial to plants either.


Hold on...are you saying salt does not help treat ich? Or are you saying salt in general is not good for the aquarium? From what I've heard, salt is beneficial to fish in trace amounts, not the plants. And believe me, the last thing I do nowadays is ask my LFS for advice! :help: 

Guys you are geniuses! I dosed the recommended dose of excel, and ALL the hair algae turned brown! Tank looks so much clearer now! Now that I've finally obtained the SAE's, I'm afraid them and the Otto's won't have much to eat :tongue: . 

The green water I treated fairly quickly (less than 1 week). I did a two day blackout, followed by a reduced (duration & intensity) photo-period as recommended. At the same time I tried to have the micron pad in the filter as often as possible, while adding some Accurel F. Average time for the pad to turn brown...2 hours! That is the only thing I hate about this trickle filter, how terrible it is at filtering particulate matter. The pad quickly blocks the water flow and disaster can happen (so we run it only at daytime). But now the water is sparkling clear, no signs of sick fish (ich) and plants are looking not too bad after all this. Thank you all for the advice, the pics are coming soon so be sure to check back!


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Ukrainetz said:


> Would you guys recommend adding any salt to a planted tank at all? I have mixed feelings because a little salt is good for fish (i do 1tsp / 5gal), but as I know, salt causes a lower O2 saturation level in the tank. I'm not all that concerned about my tank since it usually reaches 110% saturation by the evening, but for the big aquarium, would you recommend it? (less things for the monkeys to dose?)


Whether or not salt is beneficial in a Freshwater tank is a Debate. Both sides have their list of reasons as to why the other side is wrong. Yes, the concept is Very Heavily passed around, but its still an unproven Debate.

In this thread:

UV question

MemphisBob says--in reference to ich:


> heat over 86* kills the free swimmers.


If that's True, then its not a wonder that temps of 86F and salt are recommended. In actuality--No Salt needed.

Anyway, whether salt is actually beneficial to the fish or not--is Debatable. But the plants really won't appreciate it much.

HTH


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## Kayakbabe (Sep 4, 2005)

[edit inserted - oops realized how late to this thread I am, I meant this response to be near the beginning. But maybe my experiences will help someone else with problems like this too -- so I'll leave it here]

First on a brand new tank setup... almost everyone experiences green water. It's just part of the tank cycling... those of us with experience can mitigate it to just a few days or to just a bit of cloudiness.. but to me it's pretty inevitable. I use either Excell to clear it up initially, then I adjust the nutrients I'm putting in the tank to keep the GW away permanently. The Excell is just a temporary treatment. 

I use Excell every once in a while ( haven't had to use it in the last year) to first get rid of green water and then later also to get rid of hair algae. I use it at 3x the recommended dosage listed on the bottle, I actually add 4x the dosage on the first day, then 3x the dosage on 3 or 4 days following that. Some other plants seem a little stressed by it, but as soon as I stop dosing they perk up and start growing like crazy. I have cherry shrimp which is a crustacean that I could not use copper (common ich treatments) around and they do fine with the Seachem Excell. There is a really good thread here with info on using excell for hair algae. Also you should know the chemical in Excell which is an intermediary in the carbon cycle chain that chlorphyll uses to convert things to usable carbon forms... is really sensitive to light. UV breaks it down FAST. So if you really want the Excell to work.. turn off the lights the entire time while you are treating with it.

Iron is also a key nutrient for hair algae. You probably don't need to dose that anyway, most tap water has plenty. (you do water changes right?!) If you aren't trying to grow red colored plants, you mostly likely don't need to add it at all. Stop dosing it. If you are growing red plants... get some substrate type of pellet form of fert and push it into the substrate next to the base of the plant. They'll get their iron there just fine. Only reason to dose iron is if you actually see nutrient deficiency due to iron, then try water changes first before you resort to dosing iron.

I also found part of my green water problem was due to high phosphate in my tap water. I started doing 1/2 tapwater, 1/2 R/O water for my water changes to dilute it down to less than 4 ppm. That helped a bunch!

I rigged up a 50 gallon per day cheapo r/o unit on top of a the lid of a rubber maid 50 gallon trash bin. I also added a float to switch it off when the trashcan was full. I put the trash can on wheels (rubbermaid makes them to match. I roll it outside to the tap, screwit on and let it run till the trashcan is full. Then I wheel that inside to right next to my tank, to fill from. I put a powerhead with a 1/2 vinyl hose into the trash bin to pump the water into the tank. 

The other part of my GW problem was actually not enought NO3, I fixed that by adding it. You can go expensive and buy the Seachem nitrogen ( i love their products but they are $$$) or you can go really cheap and buy Green Light brand Stump Remover. You'll have to ask for it at a garden supply or ranch/feed store (it's controlled now since you could make a bomb out of it with fertilizer added). It cost about 2 dollars for a two or more year supply. In my 120 gallon tank, 1 teaspoon gives me 5 ppm. So you can see it will last a long long time.

If you started using dry ferts, you'd save so much money, you could afford a UV twice over. Nice thing about the UV, It will kill ick and Green water, and any other monocell algae lurking around. NOTE: It will also destroy the EXcell chemical so unplug that uv while you are treating with Excell.

I third what everyone else is saying.. stop using the ph balancers! You don't need them in a planted tank. Not do you want them to do what they are designed to do. I've found my ideal is that I want my water without CO2 to be around 7.2 ph then when I add the C02 I want it to change the PH to around 6.4. The CO2 in solution forms carbonic acid.. which is why the pH goes down. Low pH is a good good thing when you have ammonia present, the ammonia ionic form at low pH isn't toxic to fish. At high pH the same ammount of ammonia will kill fish. SO... 

you really have to decide if you want a planted tank with a few incidnetal pretty fish.. Or if you want a fish tank...

if you want the latter.. get some plastic plants, use the ph balancers, still might want to get a UV for ich and other parasite control,... and be happy, it will be a good looking tank.

If you want a planted tank with some incidental pretty fish... welcome to the learning curve! Get some test equipment and I highly recommend the software Aquarix (http://www.aquarix.com/) when I keep the graphs in the recommended zones, my tank looks awesome. It can even help you keep things in balance taking into account the different animals you have in the tank and their needed ph ranges and optimum conditions.

You have WAY too much light for your setup. I have a 120 gallon and I use a 3 hours on, 2 hours off, 4 hours on schedule. I've never had a tank that I put 12 hours a day of light on it... that is just asking for algae problems, unless you have a major plant load established and they absolutely love that kind of light. It really is easier to take care of if you lower the light and shorten the duration.

Anyway, that was long..phew..
My tank's GW solutoin was less phosphate, more nitrate, less light duration, different water balance on water changes.

Your tank GW solution might be different.. I'd recommend starting with reducing light.


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## Ukrainetz (Jul 11, 2007)

Thank you for replying kayakbabe, you've made some good points. Yes the problem has been solved indeed...black out, fine filter w/Acc.X, and reduced light. I also used excel for hair, (I used 1cap/10gal) and one treatment took care of all the hair (turned brown within a few days). Now the tank looks awesome, and the fish look really healthy!

The software you mentioned, can it be used with testing equipment to work automatically?


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