# Can I just turn my UGF off?



## soh15 (May 5, 2005)

I have a 30gal with a UGF. It has been running for 1 year. Plants are doing great but I understand now that a UGF in a planted tank is not a great thing. I was woundering if I could just turn my powerhead off and pull the tube out and cap the hole in the top of the UGF plate. Or would that cause problems in the future? I am thinking that it would.


----------



## Jerm (Sep 26, 2005)

Problems for the filter or the plants? Some people actually put UGF's in with root tabs and don't use them just to give the plants a boost, but i imagine the roots would get tangled in the filter and then it would be difficult to move them.


----------



## soh15 (May 5, 2005)

I was thinking problems with the plants in the future if I was to just stop using it without taking the UGF plate out. There would be that open space between the glass on the bottom of the tank and the plate that was not getting any water movement any more. Like a huge bubble.


----------



## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

If you leave that plate in there without circulation you are begging for disaster. Any trapped mulm will decay and turn that space into a biological bomb for the fish if it were to release into the water column.
It should be removed. Even if you leave it in a functional state it will eventually clog and get same results. 

Its not an easy task but for a healthier tank overall, you should bite the bullet and remove the plate.


----------



## Jerm (Sep 26, 2005)

What if we want a disaster? A mass death makes cultists happy, then we can sell the photos and make millions, and as we rake in the dough, evil conglomerates will steal our idea and try to get a patent, but just to late as we get it first, therefore establishing our predominant position as the leading distrubutors or pictures of dead FISH!!! ........ or you could take out the UGF roud:


----------



## TWood (Nov 1, 2005)

LOL Jerm

It depends...

It probably depends on the depth of the substrate above the plate. A shallow substrate will allow more oxygen from the water column to reach the bottom, so no problem. And, if the plants grow roots into the plate, then they too will probably oxygenate the area under it with their roots transmission of oxygen.

A very deep substrate might allow the area under the plate to go anoxic, problem. 

A substrate *just* the right depth could actually perform as a Jaubert plenum and remove NitrAte, but you would never know if it is working right without a lot of relatively sophisticated tests. Maybe or maybe not a problem.

So it depends... :tongue: 

TW


----------



## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

TWood said:


> Maybe or maybe not a problem. It depends...


 I tell you what , YOU try it and let us all know how it works. In my eyes its not IF(?) it will be a problem...its more like WHEN(?) will it be a problem. :tongue: :icon_bigg

If you have ever taken out a _functional_ UGF from a tank that has been setup for a year or two then you will smell what I mean. I cant even imagine that pocket without circulation. :icon_bigg


----------



## TWood (Nov 1, 2005)

Buck said:


> I tell you what , YOU try it and let us all know how it works.


Did it already - the Jaubert plenum, which is basically set up like a large UGF. IIRC it was set up for several years without killing my fish. :tongue: 

That tank did consume a lot of nitrate, but that may have been the plants doing.

TW


----------



## Matak (Aug 10, 2005)

Don't buy into the theory that plants & UGF's don't work well together. Ask Tom Barr. Simply reverse the flow on your UGF. If you use a simple sponge pre-filter on your *RF*UGF (*R*everse *F*low Under Gravel Filter) then no mulm gets trapped under the plate and you will not need to use root fert. tabs to fertilize as the ferts in the water column will be passing through the substrate. 

Consider this option as removing a UGF plate is a nasty mess and it will add a lot of bio crap to your water column. If you do decide to remove the plate, I would remove the fish to another container until the dirty work is done. The best way to clean up the water column IMO is to use a Diatomaceous Earth filter.


----------



## TWood (Nov 1, 2005)

I have a modified version of a UGF in my 90 gallon. It's a couple of perforated PVC pipes under a plastic insect screen under 4" of plain blasting grit. A submersible pump pulls water down through the substrate, keeps the water pretty clean. I do all water column dosing, so to me the substrate is just a glorified plant-holder anyway. The RUGF will work too, but it seems backwards to have to clean a prefilter.

TW

EDIT: Here's a picture of the one in a 70 gallon that I no longer manage:










That's a powerhead in the back left corner, with a CO2 line into the venturi. You can barely see the sheet of plastic insect screen over the pipes. The two horizontal pipes in the center have two rows of 1/4" holes drilled in them, turned toward the bottom of the tank.


----------



## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

If you plan on setting up a tank for only a year or so its OK , but if you are in it for the long haul then dont do it. No matter how you set these gizmo's up they plug up with time and lose efficiency. It is inevedible in a planted tank. A conventional aquarium without plants and root mass they can work in but *WHY?* There is no advantage to using a system like this over canisters or HOB filters. 
UGF's *AND* RFUGF's work good for a few months to a year and then the root masses thicken in spots and the flow goes around those places and then the roots grow some more and the restricted areas increase creating hidden pockets and before you know it you have unexplained fluctuations in the water column. The bad part is that you cannot physically "see" when it is becoming a problem.

*TWood*
Ive seen some crazy setups over the years but that one in the 70G takes the cake. 
What kind of flow could you possibly get from one single powerhead pushing through all that pipe with the holes pointing down and under 3 or 4 inches of substrate ? Water flows through the easiest path, even light resistance will redirect it from a tiny pump like that.  :icon_bigg 

*soh15*
Do yourself a favor and tear up the plate , rinse the substrate , put it back in the tank and replant. Its only a 30 gallon tank , the whole process would take you a few hours , a few buckets or coolers (better option) and an air pump for the fish cooler and all this GUESS WORK is gone. 

You will regret not pulling that plate someday...I did. :icon_frow


----------



## TWood (Nov 1, 2005)

Buck said:


> *TWood*
> Ive seen some crazy setups over the years but that one in the 70G takes the cake.
> What kind of flow could you possibly get from one single powerhead pushing through all that pipe with the holes pointing down and under 3 or 4 inches of substrate ? Water flows through the easiest path, even light resistance will redirect it from a tiny pump like that.  :icon_bigg


Um, no. The powerhead is pulling water down through the gravel, into the PVC pipes and then up and out through the powerhead. It actually had too much flow because it stirred the entire tank to the point that the fish had to work against it unless I pointed the outflow from the powerhead directly at the glass. And, it had enough flow that the CO2 into the powerhead's venturi worked quite well. 

I have the same system in my 90 gallon so that debris is held close to the substrate - I have goldfish that like to dig. It's not the primary filter, but it works quite well to add clarity to the water by keeping the bigger stuff down.

Try it before you diss it.  

TW


----------



## Matak (Aug 10, 2005)

How long is short term Buck? My RFUGF is past 3 yrs old. No probs. Still flows good. Also, this sponge prefilter is cheap, durable, easy to clean and only adds to bio-filtration.


----------



## soh15 (May 5, 2005)

I figured just tunring it off would not be a good thing to do. I think I am going to keep it running for now. And when I get a lower # of fish I will pull it out and start over. Right now it is full of Apistogramma Cacatuoides fry and a ton of plants. Thanks eveyone, What a great site.


----------



## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

*My reasoning...*

To me, these systems make no sense in a planted tank. I ran them and swore by them for 15 years in my old conventional aquariums, but they are useless and risky in a planted tank. 
_To maintain a UGF properly,_ the substrate must be vaccumed to the plate until they run clean of mulm buildup to prevent clogging and keep the system 100% effective. In a planted tank it is dang near impossible to do that and then if you "could" vaccum your entire substrate , it would be counter-productive for the plants. No ?

_*Do I know it's working ?*_
To say that it is working because _"I still get good flow from my pump"_ dont tell you anything really. You can still get good flow from your pump but that does not mean it is pulling through the entire system. You could have only 5% of that plate working and still have good flow, but the rest of the thing is clogged and useless. That was always the drawback to UGF's. 

Then all of a sudden some years ago someone said "hey lets try and *R*everse the *F*low" in the *UGF* :icon_idea RFUGF systems I bet are being used even less then UGF's these days in planted tanks...that was more of a reefer method dragged over into trying in planted tanks .
Its the same result though, how much of that plate "do you know" is functional ? I mean, just look at the buildup of "bacteria" we get on the walls of your canister filters, stones and hoses and then think of how they would look without maintenance from time to time. The plates and pipes of UGF/RFUGF's do not see any maintenance.
Using the prefilter does extend the life of the plate and saves mulm from going directly under and trapping, but _bacteria beds themselves_ left undisturbed can still get gnarly and plug the system. _Again I ask ... do I know its working ?_

Dont get me wrong...I used them for years in all my tanks, *they are good systems in a conventional tank* where you can push a python down to the plate and vaccumm, but in a planted tank you cannot maintain the system the way it was designed to be maintained and they clog. Not their fault man...LOL 

All I am trying to say is there are a lot of systems and methods out there to try, but if you gain nothing substantial from it, why risk it ? Im just trying to save poor *soh15* the _potential for trouble_ *now*, instead of later. Only Cuz' I know I will never forget the smell that came from under the last UGF plate I will ever use in my life again, thats my beautiful plants job now !! :hihi:

*Your reasoning...*
Now I told you why I dont like them...Can you guys explain to me what you are _"gaining"_ from running either a UGF/RFUGF in a planted tank and why you are trying to advocate them in a planted tank ? 

Maybe I am missing something here... :icon_bigg


----------



## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

Also ...I forgot to say congrats on the Apistogramma Cacatuoides fry ! roud:

Man I need a nap now... LOL ! Between my turkey hangover and all this typing Im whooped ! :icon_bigg


----------



## TWood (Nov 1, 2005)

Like I said, it provides an additional level of mechanical filtration that improves water clarity. I can vacuum in spots, or all over, or not at all and it doesn't make a lot of difference in the short run. The plant roots eventually get to that stuff and break it down anyway. Long run, dunno, it hasn't been set up long enough, but I change the scape enough that a vacuum is always an option.

Advocating a UGF? Not really, just showing how a modified version can work. :tongue: 

TW


----------



## Matak (Aug 10, 2005)

Buck said:


> *Your reasoning...*
> Now I told you why I dont like them...Can you guys explain to me what you are _"gaining"_ from running either a UGF/RFUGF in a planted tank and why you are trying to advocate them in a planted tank ?
> 
> Maybe I am missing something here... :icon_bigg


You might have point there Buck (better get a toque  ) about not knowing what is going on under the plate. Also, unless I did a dye test (is food colour harmfull to fish?) I really wouldn't know the flow rate/pattern is in my RFUGF substrate.

That being conceded though, the advantages IMO are thus:
Cheap. Large bio filtration area (enlarged when used with a sponge pre-filter). If ferts are added to the water column, then substrate ferts aren't necessary. This would also include micro's like iron. More fertilizer available to the root system. Less likely hood of an anerobic gas discharge. Probably the gentlest flow of any filter out there. 

But keep in mind that I'm still a newbie 

BTW, I forgot to wish you guys a Happy Thanksgiving.


----------



## Jerm (Sep 26, 2005)

I don't have a point, i just want to argue. The sky is blue because of aliens. :tongue:


----------



## newshound (May 9, 2005)

in my brothers tall 40 gallon he has left his unused UGF in for 4 years! Mind you it is not a planted tank and it is "over filtered" by a HOB. The tank has at least 3 inches of ugly blue gravel and has very little TLC in this time period.
The 5-6 inch lonely rainbow shark is in a timebomb waiting to happen.
O ya just tear the tank apart roud:


----------



## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

Jerm said:


> The sky is blue because of aliens.


 Is Not ! :tongue: 

Well it seems that "Added Filtration" is the only thing you guys like about them... I have two canisters and lots of plants to keep my water clean. If you ask me , I think we overfilter our tanks as it is. I think healthy plants , a powerhead or two for water movement and water changes would actually do the trick but we love gadgets...(like UGF's) ... hehe 


Matak said:


> If ferts are added to the water column, then substrate ferts aren't necessary. This would also include micro's like iron. More fertilizer available to the root system.


 You are again assuming that you have water flow throughout the entire plate... :wink: 


TWood said:


> I can vacuum in spots, or all over, or not at all and it doesn't make a lot of difference in the short run. The plant roots eventually get to that stuff and break it down anyway.


Thats basically my point...if you dont vaccumm _to the plate_, it eventually clogs...and if the roots get to the plate to break it down...it clogs with roots. My roots found every hole in the plate that they were near , it was like they were attracted there by flow and all it takes is a few fine hair roots to redirect the water too another area.


Let me ask you this now for conversation sake...
If you were to set up a new planted tank today , would you put one in ?


----------



## Matak (Aug 10, 2005)

Buck said:


> Let me ask you this now for conversation sake...
> If you were to set up a new planted tank today , would you put one in ?


Funny you should ask that Buck. I asked that of myself as I perused the new replies. As a matter of fact I am building a new tank and, *no* there will not be a UGF of any kind in it as I can (barely) afford cannister filters for it. But there is a partial one on my 30g and I don't plan on replacing it, even though I will be adding an XP-2 to it (hopefully on Christmas day :wink: )


----------



## TWood (Nov 1, 2005)

Yup. I just did, but it's not a plate type.

TW


----------



## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

One vote for "if it works..."

No need to tear apart a healthy tank...


----------

