# GDA - do something..seriously!



## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Okay this is basically a continuation from this GDA post by Man of Many Fish.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/algae/79205-gda-do-nothing-seriously.html

Some very valid points were raised about what causes Green Dust Algae, what to do once you get it and how best to get rid of it once you get it. If you review the thread, you will see that it sparked much debate and controversy with no real clear answer that everyone could agree to. Add to this the mysterious nature of Green Dust Algae, with some tanks developing it and others not with all conditions being equal. I only encountered Green Dust Algae twice once with my 40 gallon tank. It developed along with other algae with my 40 gallon when I first converted the 40 gallon to a planted tank and things were in a major state of imbalance. As you can see from the slide show of the 40 gallon tank in my signature it has been defeated, largely to the tank achieving balance over time, and has not returned. I also got it in a 10 gallon when I replaced the 2 10 watt compact fluorescent 6500 K daylight GE bulbs with 2 13 watt compact fluorecent 6500 K daylight GE bulbs. For the record, I don't generally believe in quick fixes or band aid solutions to algae issues as I have learned that this often does not work. However, given the mysterious nature of Green Dust Algae, I decided to try a 2 prong approach to the problem. Before I discuss this, I think that it is important for people to be aware of some background. This was on a 10 gallon that I initially setup to test some controverial anti-algae measures. Unfortunatley, the experiment ended up a failure as the tank was raped by one alage after another(blue green algae, then black beard algae, then clado, now green dust algae). Algae pretty much disappeared when I had replaced the 2 15 watt 6500 K GE daylight fluorescent bulbs with 2 10 watt 6500 K GE daylight fluorescent bulbs in the canopy. I couldn't leave well enough alone, having a curious mind, so I replaced the 2 10 watts with 2 13 watts which caused Green Dust Algae to materialize. For anyone interested in how this tank started off and why I originally set it up, you can check out my journal here: http://azdhan.googlepages.com/thelostworld This tank is not the best scaped and the substrate(Schultz Aquatic Soil is not the best for keeping rooted plants anchored). I eventually plan to tear it down and start again, but I have not done so yet, as the tank still serves as my" "let's see what else I can learn from this tank?"

Okay here is what I did to address the Green Dust Algae and here is what happened. I apologize for the cr*ppy pictures but I am not the best photographer and do not have the best camera.

About 3 weeks ago, this is what the tank looked like with Green Dust Algae in full force. The GDA was caked on so badly to the rear of the tank that the UV sterilzer would not stay put as the suction cups could not maintain permanent contact. 


















I replaced the 2 13 watt GE compact fluorecent 6500K daylight bulbs with 2 10 watt GE compact fluorescent 6500K daylight bulbs and added a Zebra Nerite Snail.

Two weeks later, this is what the tank looked like. There was a noticeable reduction in Green Dust Algae.









Naturally, some members may be asking, hey Homer did you actually notice the Zebra Nerite Snail actually feeding off the Green Dust Algae?? The answer, yes I did. The nerite did exactly what the nerite is doing in this Utube Video(not my video) and I could literally see tread marks forming around the GDA algae.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cnogn_LBAXE

The other question people may ask is: How do you know which had the greater effect on the GDA, snail or reduced lighting intensity. That is a really good question. I don't know the answer to this as this as the test was likely scewed by the introduction of two independent variables at the same time. I like to think of the effect as a one, two, knockout punch. The reduced lighting intensity causes the GDA to breakdown and soften and the Snail cleans it up, like a vulture feeding off a dead carcass.

This is the tank after 3 weeks and I saw pretty much a 100% die back and disappearance of Green Dust Algae.









Based on my experience, for anyone with Green Dust Algae that can get some Zebra Nerite Snails, I strongly urge you to. Yes, I know some will say, hey I can just use my Mag Float or credit card to scrape off the GDA with every water change. I know you can, but the Snail is like a permanent biological mag float that will keep the GDA from building up to the point where you are forced to use a Mag Float or credit card to scrape it off. Instead, do yourself and use that credit card if you still can to purchase some Zebra Nerite Snails.

So, what now. Well, I am not interested in seeing how many different ways I can induce Green Dust Algae and battle it back. I think I will quit while I am ahead and have a couple of wins in my win column against Green Dust Alagae. I am in the process of testing the dry method/emersed on smaller tanks. If succesful, I will set up another 10 gallon emersed with mineralized topsoil and when plants are established, flood, use pressurized or at least DIY c02, keep light intensity to 20 watts total, and transfer all inhabitants and filter in kind to the new tank. That tank will be a replacement for this one. And this tank will eventually be torn down. Algae is no longer an issue in this tank, but I am not happy with the hardscape and the fact that Schultz aquatic soil sucks at holding down any stem plants or any plants that form deep roots.


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## ZooTycoonMaster (Jan 2, 2008)

I already have 4 Nerite Snails and cut back my lighting...maybe I should cut it back even more?


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

ZooTycoonMaster said:


> I already have 4 Nerite Snails and cut back my lighting...maybe I should cut it back even more?


From what I understand, there are different Varieties of Zebra Nerite snails, with people alleging some being more effective than others at feeding off GDA. 

The one pictured in this link is the exact same one that I have that seems to love and cannot get enough GDA. It even cleaned off the GDA that was caked on the UV sterilizer casing.
http://www.planetinverts.com/zebra_nerite_snail.html


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Oh man, I must have forgotten to send the post I did earlier on your thread. Sorry. 

This is freaking awesome! I would use stronger wording, but gotta watch out for the kiddies, lol. How could one zebra nerite snail eat so much algae and not be the size of a whale?

Listen up everyone! Homer has now given us two good methods of getting rid of GDA and if we don't try at least one method before throwing in the towel, I don't feel sorry for you.

Now, after adding t5ho lights to my 55, I am personally starting to see a little GDA in my tank. I wonder how to find some of these wonderful creatures......:hihi:

Homer, when did you come up with the idea of adding the nerite snail? Was it as a result of the other thread, or just your brilliant mind at work? Oh, and where is manofmanyfish? I kind of miss him.

Sara


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

sewingalot said:


> ...Homer, when did you come up with the idea of adding the nerite snail? Was it as a result of the other thread, or just your brilliant mind at work? Oh, and where is manofmanyfish? I kind of miss him.
> 
> Sara


Lol, you are too kind Sara  

Not a new concept really, but controversial. I had read some references from members that Zebra Nerite snails will cut through green spot algae, and some stated that they had witnessed the snails feeding on green dust algae. Then as you will often see in forums, I noticed some contradictory posts, where some members said yes the Zebra Nerite snail would feed off GDA, while others stating that it was BS. I decided to try for myself. At first, I was worried the snail would sneak out of the tank as there were reports that they were notorious for taking trips outside the tank never to be seen. Like a parent with a newborn baby, when I got him, I was turning on the aquarium lights at night at different times to make sure he was safe. Everytime, I turned on the lights, I would notice him against the glass scavenging off the green dust algae. He was relentless(24/7) and thankfully never escaped or tried to. Now, I am concerned. 
there is no green dust algae left. He has scoured the casing of the UV sterilizer where the last of the remaining GDA was caked on, and now the casing is as clean as a whistle. 

What do these snails eat? Will algae wafers suffice?


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## o snap its eric (Jan 12, 2004)

im sure snails aren't the pickiest of animals. Veggie matter of anything would suffice. Hmm... snails leaving the tank... that is something of a concern!


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## ER9 (Aug 2, 2008)

i'd like to see you try another experiment with the split light photoperiod as you did on your 40. to me that was a more interesting outcome. i actually have some GDA on my back glass and might try that recipe to try and get rid of my fuzz algae problem. i need to determine first if purigen will have any effect first before i begin. my GDA seems to have stopped growin by 95% the past week though. that was when i cut my photoperiod from 8 to 7.5 hours a day. that being true though i cant difinatively say it was the light yet unless i crank it back up because i also added another canister at the same time.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

ER9 said:


> i'd like to see you try another experiment with the split light photoperiod as you did on your 40. to me that was a more interesting outcome. i actually have some GDA on my back glass and might try that recipe to try and get rid of my fuzz algae problem. i need to determine first if purigen will have any effect first before i begin. my GDA seems to have stopped growin by 95% the past week though. that was when i cut my photoperiod from 8 to 7.5 hours a day. that being true though i cant difinatively say it was the light yet unless i crank it back up because i also added another canister at the same time.


I did try split photoperiod on this 10 gallon when I first set it up, in an effort to ward off alage, but it did not stop the algae. Not even cutting the photoperiod from 12 hours to 8 hours made a difference at 30 watts light intensity. I even monkeyed around with different fertilization combinations and even at one point changed the DIY c02 brew weekly in an effort to ensure appropriate c02 levels. The drop checker even showed a constant lime green color throughout the time I set up the tank. I even dosed Seachem Excel(2X) daily. Still, different types of algae made their rounds. In a last ditch effort to try and turn things around in the losing battle to algae I reduced the light intensity from 30 watts to 20 watts by replacing the 2 15 watt 6500K daylight bulbs with 2 10 watt 6500 K daylight bulbs. I added some Amano shrimp and reduced photoperiod to 8 hours from 12 hours. I changed nothing else and the algae seemed(clado, black beard, green spot) to disappear as quickly as it appeared. The green dust algae only materialized when I replaced the 2 10 watt 6500 daylight bulbs with 2 13 watt 6500 k daylight bulbs. Photoperiod was still 8 hours.

I decided to go back to the 2 10 watt 6500 K daylight bulbs and add the Zebra Nerite snail to see what effect it would have on the GDA. Photoperiod was straight 8 hours. I know I will regret this as I just cannot seem to leave well enough alone. Now I have bumped the photoperiod back up to 12 hours. Let us see what happens. I hope I am right in thinking that the light intensity may be too low even at a 12 hour photoperiod to induce algae, GDA or any other. I can always split the 12 hour photoperiod at this intensity if algae rears its ugly head. Of course, a big part of this IMHO is the DIY c02. With pressurized stable c02 levels, my guess is that many of these steps including reduced light intensity would be unnecessary. The only reason I suspect this is that in my 40 gallon I have pressurized c02. And since c02 efficiency has improved with a change in diffusion, not only has plant growth exploded(just in the last month I have given away 4 Ice Cream pail full of plant clippings) but the GDA has not returned despite the fact that I have lowered the 2 55 watt AH supply fixture to allow enough light to the substrate to try and grow carpeting plants. In that tank the photoperiod is 12 hours but split. 6 hours on, 2 hours off and 6 hours on again.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

o snap its eric said:


> ... Hmm... snails leaving the tank... that is something of a concern!


For sure, I read where this happened to a lot of people. Complexity spoke about this and about why it caused her to finally give up in Zebra Nerite Snails. This is why I had second thoughts about doing this.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

I can feed him, just send him to me and I'll give him plenty of GDA. :hihi: Well, since this is an experimental tank, see if you can bring back more of the GDA. Just up the nutrients, turn the lights on full blast, and poof! Although, algae wafers will work.... I also found snails LOVE zucchini.


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## KDahlin (Mar 12, 2007)

Homer_Simpson said:


> From what I understand, there are different Varieties of Zebra Nerite snails, with people alleging some being more effective than others at feeding off GDA.
> 
> The one pictured in this link is the exact same one that I have that seems to love and cannot get enough GDA. It even cleaned off the GDA that was caked on the UV sterilizer casing.
> http://www.planetinverts.com/zebra_nerite_snail.html


Do you know if the ones that Invertz Factory sells are the same? They look the same as the picture.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

KDahlin said:


> Do you know if the ones that Invertz Factory sells are the same? They look the same as the picture.


It looks exactly like the one I bought. I know there is another that is more a brownish color and I always thought that the brownish one was the only Zebra Nerite Snail around. When I saw this one, I was reluctant to buy it because I thought it was the wrong type or was discolored because it was sick, lol  However, it really went at the GDA non-stop and it is still scouring the tank looking for more. It is now spending more time scouring the substrate, likely looking for some more algae since it has pretty much cleaned up the glass. It is in direct competition with the 5 Amano shrimp for any algae wafers or zucchini I put in the tank.


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## KDahlin (Mar 12, 2007)

Sounds good, I think I'll get a few for my 55.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

sewingalot said:


> I can feed him, just send him to me and I'll give him plenty of GDA. :hihi: Well, since this is an experimental tank, see if you can bring back more of the GDA. Just up the nutrients, turn the lights on full blast, and poof! Although, algae wafers will work.... I also found snails LOVE zucchini.


Lol, I am sure if I sent him to you, he would think he died and went to heaven with all the GDA he could feast on. 

You are right and you now have me thinking. It is an experimental tank and it is due for a demolition in the near future, so let's have some fun. Okay, do you propose that I should tempt fate and increase the light intensity back to 2 13 watt 6500K daylight bulbs just to induce the GDA again. I am sure that the Zebra Nerite Snail wont mind an outbreak and will likely welcome it. Question is, will he be able to outcompete the GDA by consuming it faster than it forms? Lol, we could always add a second Zebra Nerite Snail if it gets to that point. If any other algae forms, we can see how well the Amano shrimp and Zebra Nerite snail(s) handle the outbreak.

What do you say folks? Is this a plan, or should we just leave things as they are with an increased 12 hour photoperiod at 20 watts.


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## ER9 (Aug 2, 2008)

Homer_Simpson said:


> I did try split photoperiod on this 10 gallon when I first set it up, in an effort to ward off alage, but it did not stop the algae. Not even cutting the photoperiod from 12 hours to 8 hours made a difference at 30 watts light intensity....


i'm curious...what was the split? was it 6 on 2 off 6 on like your 40?

also i'm curious if you have tried lessening the light intensity of higher watt bulbs with a filter instead? something like a translucent or frosted plexigalss or glass over the bulb? i know translucent white plexiglass will reduce light by approximately 30%. glass is probably similar.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Homer_Simpson said:


> What do you say folks? Is this a plan, or should we just leave things as they are with an increased 12 hour photoperiod at 20 watts.


I vote for the increase of light. Of course, you already knew my vote. :hihi:


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

You guys had me convinced to try a few until I saw the $40 for 7 price tag. :eek5:


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Reducing the light intensity and tweaking the gas will cover
a multitude of sin's. :icon_cool

I've been preaching this for awhile, I think it is slowly starting
to sink in based on the population and activity in the algae section.

Over the years I have seen many members all excited about the new
T5HO fixture they just purchased, only to see them sit that thing directly
on the tank, then watch as the explosion occurs. :icon_roll

Snails can help, but they are a band-aide in a situation like this.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Some things do take a while to sink in. Like most people here I've had most every kind of algae and would search the forums reading everything I could find and would a lot of the time end up more confused about what to do. Finally after all else failed I decided to take the advice of people such as Craig and Tom Barr - don't have so much light that it looks like a small nuclear reactor sitting on top of the tank, make sure you have good consistent CO2 and keep the tank and filter clean. That took care of almost all of the algae issues I've had in the past. I still have some rear it's head when I find myself slacking on any the above. I know everyone's experience is different and I'm not trying to discount anyone else but this has been my experience lately.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> Reducing the light intensity and tweaking the gas will cover
> a multitude of sin's. :icon_cool
> 
> I've been preaching this for awhile, I think it is slowly starting
> ...


I totally agree with you, but understand that many people including the self proclaimed lighting experts would argue that 30 watts(2 15 watt 6500 k daylight spiral flurorescent bulbs) over a 10 gallon with stock canopy reflectors to boot would be considered low light despite the 3 watts per gallon rule and theoretically should not lead to algae outbreaks. Similiar intensity lighting with good reflectors T5H0 or even T5NO is a different story. My tank shows this not to be true. In theory, I should not have had any algae due to the light intensity being too high as it was simply not possible given the nature of the lighting and stock reflector, so what gives? I certainly know that light intensity was at the root of many of the algae issues as simply replacing the 2 15 watt to 2 10 watt 6500K daylight fluorescent bulbs caused the algae to disappear. No other changes were made. I induced GDA by bumping the 2 10 watt 6500 K daylight to 2 13 watt 6500K daylight, again no other changes were made. Again this would not be considered high light and I know for a fact whether I choose the 2 10 watts or 2 13 watts or even 2 15 watts, they are all of insufficient intensity to even grow carpet plants like dwarf hairgrass and HM, yet the 2 13 watt and 2 15 watt bulbs of sufficient intensity to grow algae. And yeah I know c02 can play into this, but again understand that based on what most folks would say 2 13 watt and 2 15 watt bulbs would not make pressurized c02 injection necessary, DIY c02 and Excel(both of which I had) should be sufficient to maintain the balance and prevent algae. Such was not the case.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

I agree as well. But now I want another experiment. Up those lights, Homer. I went out and bought a bristlenose pleco to see how it does with my GDA. Since I ran out of co2 and am too lazy to go get more. :hihi:

Edit: By the way is this you, Homer?!? http://www.aquascapingworld.com/magazine/August-2008/Bristlenose-Plecostomus.html I have been reading your articles forever if so. And they are fantastic. I actually special ordered a bristlenose due to this particular write up.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

sewingalot said:


> I agree as well. But now I want another experiment. Up those lights, Homer.


O.k. I will up the lights? 2 15 watts or 2 13 watts at 12 hour photoperiod?



sewingalot said:


> I went out and bought a bristlenose pleco to see how it does with my GDA. Since I ran out of co2 and am too lazy to go get more. :hihi:
> 
> Edit: By the way is this you, Homer?!? http://www.aquascapingworld.com/magazine/August-2008/Bristlenose-Plecostomus.html I have been reading your articles forever if so. And they are fantastic. I actually special ordered a bristlenose due to this particular write up.


I have been exposed :icon_redf

Yes, I wrote that article. The Albino Bristlenose Pleco and Siamese Algae Eater continue to impress me. Here is the thing that I am noticing. I don't feed them every day, but every second day. A piece of Zucchini micrwaved for 60 seconds attached to a feeding clip. They both go crazy over it. In between feedings, After ever major trim, I notice some green spot alge materiailzing. The Albino Bristleonse pleco in between feedings will literally scrape it off the glass. Lol, I thought GSA was too hard for ABNP's to feed off. Yet I have noticed this and the GSA, not GDA mysterously vanish the next day after he made his rounds on the section of the glass with it. In fact I have seen both the Siamese Algae Eater and ABNP scrape plant leaves and glass throughout the tank even in areas where I could not see any form of algae. I can only conclude that they may have been feeding of residual algae spores, naked to the human eye. Both these fish are the pride and joy of my 40 gallon.


With respect to my 10 gallon and what happened with the lighting. Here are a couple of things to think about.

Ryan set up a similar 10 gallon tank with even higher ligthing 2 23 watt 6500K compact fluorescent spiral bulbs, some water column ferts, and a super long photoperiod(14 hours). He even used a Hagen c02 non pressurized c02 system that outputs less c02 than the DIY c02 setup I used. He even used a less efficient c02 diffuser. The major difference was that he used ADA Aquasoil as a substrate. No algae, no GDA, no GSA, nothing. check it out for yourself.
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquascaping/35202-cherry-tree-10-gallon-planted.html


O.k. so I set up another 15 gallon tank with ADA Aquasoil and 2 23 watt 6500 K daylight spriral bulbs. Surprisingly no algae other than a little GSA. The exact opposite of the 10 gallon.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/substrate/57612-15-gallon-high-aquasoil-ii-experimental.html


So, now I have to ask myself, what exactly could account for such drastic differences between my 10 gallon setup and Ryan's and my 15 gallon tank where things were quite different. It comes down to substrate - use of ADA Aquasoil II. I am only guessing here and have no other explanation unless someone can come up with something else. The ADA Aquasoil allowed deep rooting and firm establishment of plants in Ryan's tank and my 15 gallon and the nutrient dense substrate along with water column ferts ensured that the plants were well fed to spur rapid growth. The end result, lush plant growth, firmly established plants, and no algae despite high light intensity. I think most will agree that algae is opportunistic and less likely to materialize where plants are growing rapidly.

Bottom line, using a good substrate that allows plant roots to firmly anchor and get established may be an effective algae preventative assuming one provides proper lighting and c02, or with low tech(optional or no c02). If what I hypothesize is correct, then starting a tank emersed to allow strong rooting and establishment of plants and then ensuring appropriate light, c02(high tech), and ferts may in fact prevent algae issues, perhaps even in cases where expensive ADA Aquasoil is not used. I believe this may even hold true with GDA. That is why I am curious to see if anyone who has started a emersed tank and flooded it with good plant growth has ever had GDA.

This is why I am starting a 3 and 5 gallon emersed that I plan to flood.

Any thoughts?

Edit: replaced the 10 watt 6500 K compact fluorescent bulbs in the 10 gallon with 2 15 watt 6500 K fluorescent bulbs. Photoperiod is 12 hours straight. Now to wait for the algae fireworks to go off and see if the GDA makes its reappearance. Will the Zebra Nerite Snails and Amano Shrimp warriors be enough to take the fight to the algae and overpower it or will they be on the losing end of this battle? The battle lines have been drawn, stay tuned peeps.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

I love my bristlenose. I call him Ed. I think he is part albino, though. He does have more coloring than most. That is too cool I know you, now! I love your writing. I should have picked up on it sooner, since the style is the same in both the articles and your posts. I guess I've being having a "d'oh!" moment on this. Anyway, I am a huge fan (and now plant friend ) of your work. You should totally write this up as an article as well.

Sorry, end of threadjacking. :hihi:

That is an interesting thought about aquasoil. I wonder if there is indeed something to it? It would be interesting to set up a side by side experiment, one with aquasoil, and one with another substrate and see what happens.

And the race is on! Who will win, the nerite or the GDA? Stay tuned for answers.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

sewingalot said:


> I love my bristlenose. I call him Ed. I think he is part albino, though. He does have more coloring than most. That is too cool I know you, now! I love your writing. I should have picked up on it sooner, since the style is the same in both the articles and your posts. I guess I've being having a "d'oh!" moment on this. Anyway, I am a huge fan (and now plant friend ) of your work. You should totally write this up as an article as well.
> 
> Sorry, end of threadjacking. :hihi:


Thanks for the compliments. You're making me blush :icon_redf What hijack?? I posted this at your request and you inspired me to try this.



sewingalot said:


> That is an interesting thought about aquasoil. I wonder if there is indeed something to it? It would be interesting to set up a side by side experiment, one with aquasoil, and one with another substrate and see what happens.


That would be an interesting experiment, but I believe that growing emersed than flooding may enable you to get out of the use of ADA Aqusaoil if there is indeed something to it. I would allow faster and more deep rooting of plants, more so than any other substrate(with the exception of perhaps potting soil or minsralized topsoil) so this really gives plants a jump start when flooding, assuming many of the plants survive the transition and do not end up too stressed at having to transition back to emersed from submersed.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> Reducing the light intensity and tweaking the gas will cover
> a multitude of sin's. :icon_cool
> 
> I've been preaching this for awhile, I think it is slowly starting
> ...


Ditto, let's add some observations:
I bought about 40 Zebra snails to play around with.

I have found them poor algae eaters, poorer than any Amano shrimp.
I've heard many claims they eat all sorts of algae etc, they do, but they put a small dent only, including BBA, GDA, GSA etc.

A band aid's worth when the algae is doing well.

If you have 1/2 dead algae or made some other manipulation, you cannot say much about the algae or herbiviore. also, to fairly test any algae eaters, and it's control, this is the same for herbicides, algicides, pest in general etc.......you need to have them actively growing in their bloom phases.

If they are seasonal, if they are already gone through their cycle.......then those will be weaker. Many pond owners have a cow 2x a year and never in the winter over algae. Summer is typically not bad, Apr/May typically are, and perhaps Sept/Oct. 

Reducing light, well, that's about as a large variable as you can ask for. 
Blackouts, reduced photoperoids, less intensity, etc, plus you have an issue already and treating the tank differently than you normally would if the tank was free of GDA.

This stuff needs accounted for.

I've heard many things that folks suspected "cured their algae", but you need to find a way to show that it was due to the reasons you think.
I rarely suggested "cures", and rarely suggest what controls algae, but speak more in general terms or what does **not** cure algae.

Having done a lot of nutrient manipulations, then moving on to CO2, and light..........95% of it is a CO2 issue and I'd have to say light is a large factor in CO2 as well. Some one recently claimed on another board they had found the cure to GDA using low Ca and PO4........but plenty of folks with soft water have long had low PO4 and plenty of issues.

The first GDA case I ever saw was in those same conditions.........

So that's not it either.

There are things that will kill it, we know that, but it is likely just going through it's cycle. Light? Perhaps.........just letting go for a few weeks then cleaning.........perhaps.
Maybe a combo of both is even better.

I do not know.

What pisses me off is inducing GDA, it's very hard for me to do, even with CO2 manipulations, so I'm somewhat skeptical there. I can reduce light, which can knock back nearly every and any species of algae, but many will not or cannot adjust light in their systems. Same can be said for many about CO2, or their nutrients as well.

You have to be willing to try and test things, most like HS just toss several things at once and hope something sticks and kills it.

This is fine, but just do not go out on limb and buy snake oil and other things.......stick to CO2/light, good care, cleaning, changing the flows, water changes, etc.

Most of the issues are basic to control algae, not some subtle ratio of nutrients, we have a lot more control over the real large factors like light and CO2 than are the case in natural systems, so be careful reading too much into that type of research on nutrients(as many have and still do).

The best researchers in aquatic plants and algae will tell you time and time again, when there is ample supplies of nutrients/light/biomass, the plants will define the system, no nutrients or the algae (Folks far smarter than I).

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

HS, if you go back and forth a few times, for your system, and if the GDA comes back, then you have something to work with in regards to the lighting.

Say do it 3-5 x to confirm.
If you can add the light and induce GDA, then add the other light and it slowly goes away(even with a little glass cleaning effort and UV/Excel etc), then you add the old lights back and it comes back............

Then you got something, but are you willing to induce or risk the GDA again?
If so then you explore this hypothesis.

Several back and forth replications can perhaps tell you something for your systems, but it has to come back and then go away. 1-2x is not enough, you need to do it several times.

You also then might try adding a shade or scuffed up plastic shield and PAR light meter and measure the differences between the old and new bulbs.
Then use the plastic light blocker to adjust things to mimic the same PAR level in the tank.

Then you can get somewhere and have a decent method perhaps.
Otherwise you are really left out in the Land of Speculation.
Many aquarist get lost out there and never get farther.

I think the key is to try and get beyond that point in the hobby.

Regards, 
Tom Barr





Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> ..You have to be willing to try and test things, *most like HS just toss several things at once and hope something sticks and kills it.*...
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


With all due respect Tom and for the record, I don't dispute what you say and if you note the advice that I generally give to other members and my posts on this and other forums in general, you would see that my position is really not that different than yours. In fact, I have been practically banned from my local forum for sharing such views as it was too alien and threatening to members and a admin who were set in their ways. That does not bother me and if people choose to live in the dark that is their choice. 

Since you yourself don't really know the true cause of GDA and how to induce it, let alone in some cases take proper redemial action, why discourage any form of experimentation with something that baffles you and that you consider a total mystery. On many occasion you have venemently advised members to induce....induce...induce...algae, try different things and see what happens. That is all I am doing here. Having some fun with a tank that I plan to tear down in a few months. It makes no sense to encourage members to try something and then attack them for doing so. It serves no useful purpose or function, whether it relates to mineralized topsoil, inducing algae and trying different things, or anything else in life for that matter. I was sharing my observations. That is all. People can take it for what it is worth. I am not a seller of zebra nerite snails or 10 watt 6500K daylight bulbs, so posting this does not financially benefit me.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Homer,

Have you decided to continue with the experiment? I am for one very interested in the outcome. I believe it is fun to see how the nerite will do with the increase of lighting. I have found that after the treatment of my fish, I was able to bring back GDA in both of my 20 gallon tanks. I am in the process of trying to get rid of my fish in those two tanks just to start up the experiment again with the same start date/parameters. So please continue this experiment. Newer people to the hobby like myself believe there has to be several answers to algae and there is not always one way to go about it. Sometimes, the "band aid" approach is nice.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

sewingalot said:


> Homer,
> 
> *Have you decided to continue with the experiment? * I am for one very interested in the outcome. I believe it is fun to see how the nerite will do with the increase of lighting. I have found that after the treatment of my fish, I was able to bring back GDA in both of my 20 gallon tanks. I am in the process of trying to get rid of my fish in those two tanks just to start up the experiment again with the same start date/parameters. So please continue this experiment. Newer people to the hobby like myself believe there has to be several answers to algae and there is not always one way to go about it. Sometimes, the "band aid" approach is nice.


You bet and thanks for the ecouragement Sara. About a week ago, I replaced the 2 10 watt light bulbs with 2 15 watt 6500K daylight bulbs. So far, I am not seeing any GDA or other algae for that matter, but it may be too early. I also stuck some Dwarf Haigrass in there. I had bought some from a local for like $4(equivalent of 4 potfuls without the rockwool) for an emersed setup. That is some of the healthiest dwarf grass I have ever seen. I want to see if carpeting plants like dwarf hairgrass have any chance with DIY c02 and 30 watt fluorescent lighting in a 10 gallon. Also, another local gave me a bunch of free glosso with the java moss I bought from him for my sister's and my office betta tank. I am hoping to keep the glosso alive so hopefully I can use it for a future 10 gallon mineralized soil emersed tank setup. I would love to have tested the lighing intensity reaching the substrate in the 10 gallon with a par meter, don't have one. Even if there are no algae lessons to learn from bumping light intensity level up, I will at least have a better idea of whether the light intensity will be enough to grow carpeting plants when I tear the tank down and redo it starting emersed then going submersed. My plan for the next 10 gallon is to have a hardscape of very low growing plants and a carpet of glosso. I will use some floating plants like water lettuce to try and minimize algae issues at startup and will bump the c02 to 40 ppm, without any inhabitants until the plants are well established. Then I will lower it to 30 ppm. Pressurized c02 will be injected and I hope that i don't have to invest in more powerful lighing for success, so this 10 gallon will serve well for testing appropriate light levels for growing carpet plants in a 10 gallon. I know that Ryan was using 2 23 watt fluorescent spiral bulbs in his 10 gallon with Aquasoil and Hagen DIY c02 unit and had no issues growing a carpet of HC algae free.

On a unrelated topic, I noticed two Amano shrimp in the tank that appeared berried big time. I now amano shrimp only breed in brackish water. It is almost tempting to leave the 10 gallon alone and convert it to a brackish tank to see if I can successfully breed the Amano Shrimp. But from what I read, breeding Amano shrimp even with a brackish water tank is lots of trouble and can b a real PITA.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

So here is a question. Do you think there is no algae because it is only a week or are the nerites keeping the algae at bay? I almost think that algae takes at least a few weeks to show up and a few weeks to go away after tweaking anything.

Your Amanos are berried? Too cool. You should keep a record of your parameters just in case they start to breed. Everyone would love to know what you did to start the breeding.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

sewingalot said:


> So here is a question. Do you think there is no algae because it is only a week or are the nerites keeping the algae at bay? I almost think that algae takes at least a few weeks to show up and a few weeks to go away after tweaking anything.


That is a really good question. I agree with you and my guess is that it may take up to two months after this light increase before we have our answer. If no GDA or other algae is visible it would be difficult to discount that the Amano Shrimp and Zebra Nerite Snail did not have anything to do with this. Right now, the zebra nerite is really active and frantically scouring the tank and glass looking for algae(my guess). 



sewingalot said:


> Your Amanos are berried? Too cool. You should keep a record of your parameters just in case they start to breed. Everyone would love to know what you did to start the breeding.


Yes, berried, but the eggs are only supposed to hatch in brackish water which I don't have. Good idea about recording water parameters. For those having problems keeping Amano Shrimp, it may be of some benefit, no matter how little. All I know is that the Amano Shrimp have almost tripled in size since I got them, so they must be liking the tank.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Either he is looking for algae or eating the microscopic kind before it gets a foothold. :thumbsup: I hear they will try to escape if they are unhappy, so if snail jumps ship, maybe the algae problem is gone.

Yes, the recording of the Amano Shrimp will help people like me who may venture into them someday. I bought some awesome Cherries off of epicfish and I am bitten by the shrimpbug! So keep up the details for me if no one else. :hihi:


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

sewingalot said:


> Either he is looking for algae or eating the microscopic kind before it gets a foothold. :thumbsup: I hear they will try to escape if they are unhappy, so if snail jumps ship, maybe the algae problem is gone.
> 
> Yes, the recording of the Amano Shrimp will help people like me who may venture into them someday. I bought some awesome Cherries off of epicfish and I am bitten by the shrimpbug! So keep up the details for me if no one else. :hihi:


Here you go Sara:

These are the water parameters for the 10 gallon, where the Amano Shrimp are doing really well and the plant growth is satisfactory but not optimum. As you know the tank just came off a bad GDA algae outbreak and is now 100% algae free. 
PH: 7
GH: 60 mg/L or PPM
KH: 50 mg/L or PPM
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5.0 ppm
Phosphates: 5+ ppm(off the charts)

The tank has DIY and FWIW when you use this chart(not very accurate) to determine c02, it measures 8.4 ppm


In contrast, these are the water parameters for the 40 gallon where plant growth is ideal(actually crazy requiring weekly trimming) and 99.9 % 
algae free
PH: 7
GH: 100 mg/l or PPM(considered moderately hard)
KH: 60 mg/l or PPM
Ammonia 0
Nitrate: 40 ppm
Nitrite: 0
Phosphates: 5+ ppm(off the charts)

The tank has pressurized c02 and FWIW when you use this chart(not very accurate) to determine c02, it measures 10.2 ppm

Now before peeps on this board decide to flame me, I should make my position clear. For the record, I do not put too much faith in water parameters with the exception of nitrites, ammonia and nitrates, as I have not noticed any real correlation between good/bad plant growth or algae/no algae and ideal or less than ideal water parameters. I only posted this for the benefit of Sara because she asked me to. And yes, the nitrate and phosphate test kit was calibrated for accuracy, so don't even go there.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Thanks for the parameters. I am a loon when it comes to numbers. The joys of being an accountant, lol. What I find interesting is the nitrate levels being different and still algae free. I wonder if there is any correlation to this?


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

sewingalot said:


> Thanks for the parameters. I am a loon when it comes to numbers. The joys of being an accountant, lol. What I find interesting is the nitrate levels being different and still algae free. I wonder if there is any correlation to this?


I wondered the same thing. I forgot to mention that I don't dose nitrates at all as part of Estimative Index in the 10 gallon with the Amano Shrimp, but I do dose potassium. The 5 ppm nitrates in that tank would be considered ideal.

In the 40 gallon I dose nitrates as part of Estimative Index I dose nitrates and 40 ppm nitrates would be considered excessive. Yet my fish are not stressed and I have been dosing the same for the past year. 

Either way, so much for high nitrates and or phosphates causing algae. Based on the readings in my tank, especially the 40 gallon, I will never be persuaded to believe that high nitrates and phosphates cause algae as my experience does not bare this out.

FWIW, I said that my 40 gallon was 99.9% algae free. The 0.1% algae in that tank is green spot algae that is concentrated on one corner of the tank and is barely noticeable. It is the same area and only one area that gets hit with some sunlight from my glass patio doors.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

I was actually starting to have a lot of algae problems when I tried to lower my nitrates recently. They have been stuck at over 40 ppm for the entire time. When I upped the water changes and lowered the nitrates, I started having issues with algae. Go figure. I am back to dosing my original amounts and the algae is slowly going away. Except the GSA. I always have some of that and my phosphates are also over 5 ppm.


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## reybie (Jun 7, 2007)

Curiosity got the best of me after reading the other GDA thread. My setup is a 40 breeder with 3-foot Tek that was about 4" above the tank rim. Lighting period was 6-7 hours, 4 hours of that was 4-lamp. I, like many others kept scraping the tank each week for the green dust buildup on the glass. Some of my stem plants were stunted because of the GDA buildup on the leaves. After reading the other GDA thread, I got curious to see if leaving it alone actually works.

I left my tank alone for about 5 weeks. I did my water changes, fertilized and fed my livestock like normal except of course I have to take a closer look each time to see if they were still alive. The front, sides and back were covered with green filament that were stuck to the glass really well. After waiting 5 weeks, I decided to go ahead and scrape the green gunk on the glass since I didn't think it was going to get any thinner anyway. It came off in sheets, unlike the others who tried not to get the green stuff back into the water, I just let it fall in the water(the endler's loved the stuff and so did my golden algae eater!).

So it's been two weeks now since I scraped the glass and it still looks good. Before this little experiment, it used to take just days before I see the green dust building up again. Did I finally conquer GDA?? I'm waiting a couple more weeks before declaring victory.

Some notes: I did raise the Tek to about 12" off the rim and upped the CO2 just a little bit.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Any updates?


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

sewingalot said:


> Any updates?


Lol, there is no algae to speak of. 0% Green Dust Algae since increasing light levels back up to 30 watts. And I am surprised that the dwarf hairgrass that I put in the tank about 2 weeks ago is still holding its own, considering I am using schultz aquatic soil mixed with gravel, I have DIY c02 and much of the light is being blocked by the floating glosso I have in the tank. The Zebra nerite is still puttering around the tank looking for algae. Unlike the first time that I put him in the tank, when I place a piece of zucchini in the tank for the Amano Shrimp, the nerite is on it in no time. That suggests that he must have very little algae to feed off. 

It is difficult to post pictures now as I am in the process of a major spring cleaning. My whole condo is in major need of decluttering and I have been at it non-stop. Hoarding doesn't pay


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

I am not the only hoarder! :hihi: I am amazed at this little bugger. I am going to get some netrites as soon as I can afford them. No worries on the pictures, you'll snap some later I am assuming. It is great to hear the hair grass is doing so well.


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