# Question on Amazonia substrate



## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

I'd say you'd probably be good with two 9L bags of ADA ASI. Don't get ASII unless you want to deal with a pile of AS mush after ~6mos. 

You don't really need any other layer of ADA substrate additive if you're using AS. ADA has a whole assortment of other substrate additives but it's been proven that ASI alone is good enough to grow nice looking plants given the fact that you will be doing some sort of fert dosing regimen regularly. Having AS as a substrate mainly acts as a fert buffer, plus it looks nice


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

THANK YOU !! oo and why do they have powder sub ?


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

Wow thats expensive $56 for 2 9L bags but then $20 to ship! wow thats $76, is it possible to get a smaller bag size for my tank ? or another website that sells the stuff with cheaper shipping ?:icon_eek:


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## rickztahone (Jul 20, 2009)

ianizaguirre said:


> Wow thats expensive $56 for 2 9L bags but then $20 to ship! wow thats $76, is it possible to get a smaller bag size for my tank ? or another website that sells the stuff with cheaper shipping ?:icon_eek:


They solely carry it


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

What a bummer, is eco complete any good ? compared to amazonia is thier a HUGE difference or a subtle one? is it really worth it ....


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

ianizaguirre said:


> Wow thats expensive $56 for 2 9L bags but then $20 to ship! wow thats $76, is it possible to get a smaller bag size for my tank ? or another website that sells the stuff with cheaper shipping ?:icon_eek:


That's as cheap as it'll get my friend. You're paying for quality though. BTW All prices on ADA products just went up starting this year. Sucks, I know.



ianizaguirre said:


> THANK YOU !! oo and why do they have powder sub ?


Powder AS is just a finer version of regular AS. I've seen AFA use it in smaller nano setups as well as a scaping medium around rocks and plants. 



ianizaguirre said:


> What a bummer, is eco complete any good ? compared to amazonia is thier a HUGE difference or a subtle one? is it really worth it ....


Eco is fine but is nothing compared to AS when it comes to nutrient content. AS is nutrient rich enough that if you forget to dose for a week, you're plants will still be fine. It acts as a nutrient buffer for those days that you're slacking on your dosing regimen. Eco, not so much. You would have to keep a religious regimen or you'll easily notice deficiency signs/algae. (I'm using High Tech setups for reference here)


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

do plants like dwarf hairgrass, and java fern NEED dosing ? if i just use eco complete with occasional dossing for the floor of my soon to be riparium ?


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

Bump


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

Yes they need to eat something just not much of something.

If it's a low tech tank then they are going to grow slowly anyway so you could get away with Flourish and there NPK set or pfertz.com low light set once a week. Or if you want to be cheaper and easier (less measuring) then get a good gH booster + Excel once or twice a week.

Ether way you need to eye-ball it longer than a medium or high tech tank because you wont see lots of growth but that's not the point you just want them to be healthy.

~

If you go with the ADA stuff then you need to go high-tech and get lots of light, ferts, and C02 - it's a whole different ball game.

- Brad


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

Its a 37 gallon tank 

I want to do a riparium with *no Co2* 
for substrate I might go with a 9 Lt bag of amazonia and some black sand (split substrates) 

My lights are good (pretty high) and with the tank filled I will have around 20 gallons of water 

I was looking at anubis, Valleria ( spelled wrong), some mosses, java fern, and Dwarf Hairgrass. 

As for fertelizers I do not know, so any recomendations? I guess something a little cheap, but good :redface:???

My goal is some type of biotop from either Africa or the Amazon... with more research ill pick specfic fish, inverts, and plants etc.


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

Bump


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

Then I'd go with my original post (gH booster + excel) twice a week. I'd cut back on lighting or you'll suffer from algae issues unless you want to go to C02 at some point.

- Brad


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

What's "pretty high" light?

Too much light without supplementing carbon (CO2 or Excel) will just lead to algae issues, no matter what other ferts you add...


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

Maybe not high light like medium ( four 24 watt bulbs on an odyssea fixture) since the reflector it comes with is crap then its medium light. 

I do not want to do Co2 , but can i still get the amazonia without it? 

By the way i was looking on an online store and they have cheap looking Co2 tablets that you just drop in the water ( does this work)
and if not whats the cheapes Co2 system for around 20 gallons of water ?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

What kind of fixture is it? CF? 

Yes, you can use the ADA if you want to. Just be aware that it takes about a month to cycle before you can add any livestock, since it throws off so much ammonia.

DIY CO2 would be the cheapest way to go. Avoid those tabs, they're useless at best.


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

its T5 HO fixture 

After doing alot of research i think this is what i am going to do for substrate. PLEASE tell me what you think 

a bottom layer of DIAMOND BLACK Dry Premium Organic Humic Acid.
and a top layer of eco complete 


Got the idea from 
http://www.bharada.com/aquaria_120.html 

But he used another substrate for the top, but i choose eco complete instead

how does this look ??


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I think that will probably leech lots of tannins into your water column, but that may be the look you're going for?


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

Tannins, would be needed to make a blackwater fish tank right? so can ihave a riparium with 20 gallons black water? with plants like anubis etc. and then will they thrive? as for fish just tetras will be fine if this is the case. 

Thank you soooo much for the help!

-Remember i am not using Co2


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

ianizaguirre said:


> Tannins, would be needed to make a blackwater fish tank right? so can ihave a riparium with 20 gallons black water? with plants like anubis etc. and then will they thrive? as for fish just tetras will be fine if this is the case.
> 
> Thank you soooo much for the help!
> 
> -Remember i am not using Co2


Yep, that should work. Just stick with plants like Anubias and Java fern that can survive very low light, since the tannins will block the light. 

I think that with the tannins you may have the right light level to not need CO2, even with your high light fixture.


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

What capret plants can i get with this setup? iv really wanted some? 

and as for the filter, i am going to use a substrate reactor from an old reef tank i had. I guess i can put something along the lines of Purigen in it or something more sutiable for my set up. Any reccomendations? 

And I was reading on tannins and some time they yellow the water a little only while other times alot... so i guess i have control over that over how much Diamond Black i lay the forground with...


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Tannins and carpeting plants don't go together.

Purigen and tannins don't go together either.

So you'll have to make some choices.


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

If http://www.bharada.com/aquaria_120.html used Diamond Black How come his tank is not full of Tannins? are you positive Diamond Black has tannins?

and as for the purigin it was an example i still need to research what media would be good, since i know purigen, and carbon are looked down upon for constent use in a planted tank. 

Thanks for the advice and help! :thumbsup:


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## Cottagewitch (Oct 22, 2009)

lauraleellbp said:


> Tannins and carpeting plants don't go together.



Why is that?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Tannins block light, whereas carpeting plants need light.

I've never used Black Diamond, but the most common source of humic acid is peat. It's possible that it's processed in such a way that the tannins are already all pulled out?


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

There won't be allot of tannin leaching unless you break your Eco Complete cap which is the point of the cap btw. The bit you do get regular water changes will fix.

It will work fine *but* in his example he is using the diamond black instead of regular peat moss that's a waste of money in my opinion. Just buy a small box of peat moss and dust in on the bottom of the tank and then add the Eco Complete as your only substrate = simpler and costs less for the exact same effect.

- Brad


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## Cottagewitch (Oct 22, 2009)

lauraleellbp said:


> Tannins block light, whereas carpeting plants need light.



Thanks. That's what I was thinking.


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

bradac56 said:


> There won't be allot of tannin leaching unless you break your Eco Complete cap which is the point of the cap btw. The bit you do get regular water changes will fix.
> 
> It will work fine *but* in his example he is using the diamond black instead of regular peat moss that's a waste of money in my opinion. Just by a small box of peat moss and dust in on the bottom of the tank and then add the Eco Complete as your only substrate = simpler and costs less for the exact same effect.
> 
> - Brad


 
So"break eco complete cap" I have no idea what that means sorry (im new to this) , and The Black Diamond is like a rock type material at first that slowly breaks down and lets out nutrients, so according to this, at one point i will have no more black diamond, so how do i add more under the substrate that would have already been layered on top? 

And to get this straight I will not have alot of tannins then which means that i can have carpet plants right ?

And all in all this combo is good for plants and will give me good growth???

THANKS


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If you start noticing nutrient deficiencies in your plants, you start dosing ferts to the water column and/or using nutrient tabs.

If you DON'T have tannins in your water, you're going to have really high light with this light fixture, so you'll need to do something to moderate it. Raise it up off the tank, shade the bottom somewhat with the emersed plants, use floating plants... those are all options.


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

ianizaguirre said:


> So"break eco complete cap" I have no idea what that means sorry (im new to this) , and The Black Diamond is like a rock type material at first that slowly breaks down and lets out nutrients, so according to this, at one point i will have no more black diamond, so how do i add more under the substrate that would have already been layered on top?
> 
> And to get this straight I will not have alot of tannins then which means that i can have carpet plants right ?
> 
> ...


I wouldn't advice using the Black Diamond at all if this is your first try at a real substrate. There's no reason, just use a dusting of peat moss under the Eco if you want to. I do it just to help speed up the plant growth process when I first setup a a new tank but it's not necessary. Your going to have to dose some type of fert in your water column anyway.

Feel free to just buy the Eco Complete and dump it into your tank up to 2"-3" along the bottom and your good to go on substrate.

~ 

A substrate "cap" is when you use 2" of something that will be way to light in your tank (clouds the water) but is great for growing plants. You "cap" it with 1" of a normal substrate like Eco Complete/Flourite/SMS/Turface/etc to hold it down and away from the water column.

~

The more important part is the lighting like lauraleellbp wrote.

- Brad


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

would putting peat like you suggested have tannins?? and do you have a link to the peat so i can see it and get that exact brand that you suggest at a store around me. Also how much peat do i lay down? And do you think i should use something other then peat that would be better for the plants ? Are root tabs expensive? 

as for the light, i have two 10k bulbs for growth and 2 actinc so that should provide less light.


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

Nope I've never had any tannin discoloring from real sphagnum peat moss since it's under the substrate.

What I do is find a landscaping store with the following dry boxes:

1.) sphagnum peat moss (lowers pH)
2.) potash (for potassium)
3.) Iron Chelate 10% (Fe)

I mix them in a bucket and then put a light dusting on the bottom glass before I add the substrate. It's a great fast boost to your new plants but it will be exhausted in about 3-6 months depending on how heavily the tank is planted so you will still need a fert regiment.

- Brad


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

Does it matter the brands of the 3 things you listed? i will probebly go to home depot and pick it up. and do i mix them dry?? how do you reapply it when its exausted in the system if the top substrate is covering it? And what fert do you recommend?


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

Nope brand isn't important as long as it says it has no additives but you probably won't find anything but possibly the sphagnum peat moss at home depot there really not geared for those types of products. A landscaping store or true gardening store would have everything cheaper than a big box store.

~

Yes you mix them all in a bucket together and then sprinkle it on the glass before you put the substrate in. You'll just put a lid on the bucket and keep it for the next tank it won't go bad.

~

You won't reapply it it's just a for a quick start on the plant growth. You'll need to dose ferts anyway. I would recommend GLA's { Green Fertilization Package } package and I would start dosing as soon as you set the tank up.

This is a poor man's ADA substrate it's been replaced by MTS but it's just as good a start.

- Brad


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Last time I used peat it was Schultz brand. I got mine from Walmart, though I know Home Depot carries it too.


You could take the easy route out and just get a small bag of Miracle Gro Organic potting soil (in the orange bag). That's what I'm using right now in my 90gal and 46gals. Then no peat necessary, since it's got quite a bit in there already.


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

bradac56 said:


> Nope brand isn't important as long as it says it has no additives but you probably won't find anything but possibly the sphagnum peat moss at home depot there really not geared for those types of products. A landscaping store or true gardening store would have everything cheaper than a big box store.
> 
> ~
> 
> ...


 
Alright i am going to go buy this some point today, just one more question that website has a substrate called AZOO, would that turn out better as a top or bottom layer or should i stick to what you said and get that combo from a garden store and eco complete? and if thats the choice how deep should my sub. be? Thank you


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

You can pick just about whatever substrate you want and make it work as long as you supplement nutrients. Every substrate has advantages and disadvantages- it's just up to you to choose what's most important to YOU (cost? color? availability? nutrient contet? grain size? user friendliness? etc). There's tons and tons of info on each substrate here in this forum so all it takes is a little searching to pull up people's feedback.

You don't want more than 2-3" total with any substrate/substrate combo.


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

The only thing I'd add to lauraleellbp's reply is anything will work as long as it's in the 2mm-3mm grain size. You can use 1mm but it's a bit lighter than SMS/Turface and I know people say it's to lite for them. (S grade 3M Colorquartz is about .5mm and it's hell to deal with).

- Brad


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

I just placed this order: 

2 Azoo Plant Grower Bed Substrate-natural for 53.98 
1 Seachem flourish Excel co2 sup 100ml for 5.49
2 flourish 10 pack root tabs 14.98
1 Seachem flourish 250ml for 5.89 

the total was $80 with free shipping


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

I hope this is enough


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

It should be a good start nothing wrong with that order.

I started out just like most people with the Seachem line of products and slowly moved over to dry ferts as time went on and the amount of tanks I ran grew. I found that spending around $100 made life easier at first but once your comfortable you'll want to switch to the $20 dry stuff to save money. 

- Brad


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

What dry fert product are you refering to? and ill make a journal and post a link on this site when i start it which will be when the substrate comes in. i have a reactor hooked up to the tank already what do you recommend i run in it? purigin? phosban? carbon? etc. ?? ( the substrate reactor is my filteration) ( and its an MR1 next reef reactor)


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

You're using a marine substrate reactor as a filter for a FW planted tank?

I don't think that's going to work well.

It definitely won't provide the type of mechanical filtration you need (that's what you need most on planted tanks), and I believe that they usually are set up to pull nutrients out of the water that plants need.

A regular canister filter would be a much better option.

www.aquariumfertilizers.com is one place to buy dry ferts. www.greenleafaquariums.com is another.


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

It is a substrate reactor made for both fresh and salt water tanks. it gives me the ability to place any filteration media in it. it then gently moves it. this can be the same as mechanical. following that statment filteration is not a must in a planted tank as i read. so i was planing on putting a little phosban or something in it for algea prevention and wanted opinions on media choice, if any.


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

I buy my dry ferts from ether { aquariumfertilizer.com } ~ { greenleafaquariums.com }.

You would need

KN03
KH2P04
KS204
Plantex CSM+B (Micro's)

Optional: 
Iron Chelate (Fe)


- Brad


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

You probably don't want any chemical media at all, except perhaps a little Purigen or carbon for water clarity.

If you can stuff it with disposable filter floss, that would probably be the most useful.

If it's designed only to hold more solid media, I'd stuff it with pot scrubbers or sponges that are easy to clean by squeezing out.

You might consider a sponge prefilter to boost the mechanical filtration.


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

If you think its a good idea then what ill do is attach a filter sock to the outlet of the substrate reatcor to catch debris ( a filter sock is better then filter floss).


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

do i need water movement if i have alot of plants that give the water oxygen? and if i need it can i just have a small amount like a constent water drop into my tank?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

You can set up a planted tank without water movement, but then it's more work on your end to keep the tank free of debris (and plants produce tons of debris!) Dead spots/debris buildups will generally lead to algae issues.

Oxygenation needs depends on your bioload.


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

1. i was thinking of alot of plants 
a small school of tetras and 3 african buterflyfish with one good algea eating fish (not pleco) how does that sound?

2. Do you think my substrate reactor (which runs on an intank rio) filled with filter floss is good enough. 

3. And when i do water changes with the dirt substrate in the tank already how do i siphon the stuff on the floor without sucking up substrate?


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

Bump


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## ianizaguirre (Jan 25, 2011)

Bump


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