# is dirt really the answer?



## victorusaconte (Jun 20, 2020)

Anchor said:


> Hi everyone. starting a new high tech planted tank.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not the answer, its a unstockable supplement willing to help fertilization

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

No, I don't think it's accurate to say that dirt the is "end all be all". It has some advantages and some disadvantages like all substrates do, so you need to do your research and decide which one best fits your needs. The substrate forum has a sticky with pros and cons of different options and here's an article talking about substrate selection. The bottom line is that there are successful tanks run with all sorts of substrates. I have dirted tanks and I'm happy with that choice, but its hardly the only reasonable option.

There are concerns with dirt and aquasoil about what to do when their nutrients become depleted and it seems like there are a number of ways to manage this, but it's not like you absolutely must break down your entire tank to replace the substrate. If you *want* to rescape your tank often, dirt might not be the best option for you. But as for what to do with the fish, you can run your sponge filter in a 5 gallon bucket and put the fish in that while you work.


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## Preeths (Jan 29, 2008)

In nature, everything grows in dirt. we use branded/standard substrates for aesthetics and predictable chemistry that comes with using a particular brand. There is a certain "Unkonwn" factor with dirt collected from the garden because of which we take some risk using it. Unless you get it tested in a lab for its properties you will not be sure what it does to the water chemistry. Plants will adapt to anything that is not too acidic(low Ph number) or too basic(high Ph number). How ever your fish and shrimps will die and it will be very hard to identify the cause. I do not want to dissuade you from using dirt. Just be aware that you MAY have to deal with a lot of un necessary problems and will not be able to pinpoint the root cause.


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## Truemyth (Sep 17, 2020)

@Anchor I would recommend you trying dirt on a smaller tank to see how you like it before moving to your "feature" thank. I personally did two smaller 5g tanks with dirt to see how plants react and grow over 2 years before I put it in my 27g cube. 

To what Elledee pointed out, if you are the type to change things up often or have to move things around, dirt's probably not for you. Same with what Preeths said too, if you're collect dirt from your garden there might be unintended issues with it. However, as with branded substrates, there are branded dirt that i've seen lots of people use and the issues around that are known. Such as Miracle grow organic potting soil  seems to be the most mentioned. Having said that, it's not like others haven't just gone out in their back yard, dug up some dirt and had nothing but success with it ie MD tank's channel for a more famous example. 

Dirt is a preference just as high tech vs low tech and all the other things that come with this hobby, until you tried it, you just don't know. This to me is a preference topic, you're going to get just as many thumbs up as there are thumbs down, but hey, try it without livestock "fish" and just grow plants with it for a bit. If you don't like it, you can always rip it out later and replace with other substrate. Cost wise it's probably cheaper to start with dirt


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## Capsaicin_MFK (Nov 15, 2009)

Fluval Stratum! I mess with this tank a lot and move stuff around and it doesn't break down as easily as Aquasoil. I'm sticking with this for all my future scapes.


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## rzn7z7 (Aug 17, 2013)

Capsaicin_MFK said:


> Fluval Stratum! I mess with this tank a lot and move stuff around and it doesn't break down as easily as Aquasoil. I'm sticking with this for all my future scapes.



Nice looking tank!


Can you gravel-vac Stratum, else, how do you pickup all the detritus that builds up in substrates?


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## Capsaicin_MFK (Nov 15, 2009)

rzn7z7 said:


> Nice looking tank!
> 
> 
> Can you gravel-vac Stratum, else, how do you pickup all the detritus that builds up in substrates?


I don't gravel vac this tank. I'm pulling stems up all the time to trim and replant. I've only had the tank up and running for a few months now so I can't give you an idea of long term detritus buildup.


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## jamesfullerton (Aug 11, 2020)

In "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium A Practical Manual and Scientific Treatise", by Diana Walstad, she includes more than enough scientific and practical information with using soil within the substrate. https://dianawalstad.com/


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## Anchor (Sep 10, 2016)

Truemyth said:


> @Anchor I would recommend you trying dirt on a smaller tank to see how you like it before moving to your "feature" thank. I personally did two smaller 5g tanks with dirt to see how plants react and grow over 2 years before I put it in my 27g cube.
> 
> T Such as Miracle grow organic potting soil  seems to be the most mentioned. Having said that, it's not like others haven't just gone out in their back yard, dug up some dirt and had nothing but success with it ie MD tank's channel for a more famous example.
> 
> )



thanks ive decided im going to go with the dirt you linked.

i havent decided on my cap yet. kind of leaning torward fluval stratum but i hear its very light and some carpets lift


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## Econde (Oct 13, 2015)

Anchor said:


> thanks ive decided im going to go with the dirt you linked.
> 
> i havent decided on my cap yet. kind of leaning torward fluval stratum but i hear its very light and some carpets lift


Black Diamond blasting sand 1240 is pretty great as a cap or just by itself. Welcome to the dirt club btw.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Capsaicin_MFK said:


> Fluval Stratum! I mess with this tank a lot and move stuff around and it doesn't break down as easily as Aquasoil. I'm sticking with this for all my future scapes.


Hi @Capsaicin_MFK,

The one Erio is showing chlorosis (yellowing); do the newest leaves come in green? Also as are a couple of leaves of the crypt(?) in the center that look a little yellowish, are these older leaves?
-Roy


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## Capsaicin_MFK (Nov 15, 2009)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @Capsaicin_MFK,
> 
> The one Erio is showing chlorosis (yellowing); do the newest leaves come in green? Also as are a couple of leaves of the crypt(?) in the center that look a little yellowish, are these older leaves?
> -Roy


The yellowing of the Eriocaulon was due to me splitting the plant in half. The yellow half grew a plantlet off the side which is nice and green. The crypt leaves look yellow because of the picture/lighting.


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## GoodOldDays (Mar 24, 2014)

I have had tanks over 50 years and always wonder why anybody would use dirt or a jacked up substrate for the aquarium. That is unless of course you want to replenish the dirt or substrate every 6 to 9 months. The normal cycle of a tank with fish waste etc. is sufficient enough to grow great plants as long as you have proper lighting. As it is now without fertilizer I have to cut out a lot of plants on my tanks about every 2 to 3 weeks. Granted I know I don’t have needy plants but rather plants such as a Anubis’s, Val, swords, bacopa and hornwort. Of course if you care to....use ferts.


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

GoodOldDays said:


> I have had tanks over 50 years and always wonder why anybody would use dirt or a jacked up substrate for the aquarium. That is unless of course you want to replenish the dirt or substrate every 6 to 9 months. The normal cycle of a tank with fish waste etc. is sufficient enough to grow great plants as long as you have proper lighting. As it is now without fertilizer I have to cut out a lot of plants on my tanks about every 2 to 3 weeks. Granted I know I don’t have needy plants but rather plants such as a Anubis’s, Val, swords, bacopa and hornwort. Of course if you care to....use ferts.


Sticking to undemanding plants certainly gives you a lot of flexibility across the board.

But you definitely don't have to replenish a dirt substrate every 6 to 9 months! I'm sure some people do, but I don't think that's typical, and that goes double if they have a system with easy plants that subsist on just fish waste and fish food like you described. After all, that's basically what the Walstad method is!
@Anchor if you are going with dirt, I recommend getting the book. You don't have to stick to the method 100% (lots and lots of people add filtration, for example), but it'll give you some good fundamentals.


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## Oughtsix (Apr 8, 2011)

I am 5 years into my dirt bottom (Miracle grow organic) gravel capped tank and my plants show absolutely no signs of slowing down in the least! 5 years and never any CO2 or ferts! I have no plans of replacing the soil, I see absolutely no need to.

I do believe that dirt takes longer to settle down than store bought substrate (a few months) but once it does and the bacterial colonies in the dirt are established and come to a balance my plants love the environment!


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## Ziggy (Sep 2, 2011)

rzn7z7 said:


> Can you gravel-vac Stratum, else, how do you pickup all the detritus that builds up in substrates?


In my opinion, absolutely not.

I had a tank going with Stratum and its soooooo light, that if you get close enough with the vac to pull up waste... you pull up Stratum too. Depending on your vac, that usually means it clogs and the whole process becomes a frustrating mess.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

rzn7z7 said:


> Nice looking tank!
> 
> 
> Can you gravel-vac Stratum, else, how do you pickup all the detritus that builds up in substrates?





Ziggy said:


> In my opinion, absolutely not.
> 
> I had a tank going with Stratum and its soooooo light, that if you get close enough with the vac to pull up waste... you pull up Stratum too. Depending on your vac, that usually means it clogs and the whole process becomes a frustrating mess.


you squirt and suck. 

I can't say how light stratum is, but when I started using some landen aquasoil, I noticed it was lighter than my mr. aqua and I had to resort to this.

https://www.2hraquarist.com/blogs/substrates-overview/aquasoil-substrate-maintenance

they siphon with a tube, but I siphon with a gravel vac for an even extra level of protection against accidentally sucking up the granules.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Ziggy said:


> In my opinion, absolutely not.
> 
> I had a tank going with Stratum and its soooooo light, that if you get close enough with the vac to pull up waste... you pull up Stratum too. Depending on your vac, that usually means it clogs and the whole process becomes a frustrating mess.



I vacuum my tanks using Stratum and ADA and Dennerle aqua soil. It's tricky until you get the hang of it, but I'm breeding bee shrimp in these tanks and try for the cleanest environment I can. When water changing my rack, I use cold water at full water force on the tanks with heavy substrates (Flourite & EC) and then turn it down to about 50% before moving on to the light stuff. Even then, I'll kink the hose as I work to let substrate (and any baby shrimp) fall back down. Once in a while I can even uproot a plant and cover it right back perfectly, but I try to stay away from plants with shallow roots like Blyxa and such. Any upsides regarding these soils being easy to plant in, I feel are negated by them being easy to uproot when/if you vacuum. And I've become a big advocate of keeping everything clean. After years of keeping planted tanks the other direction, I'm finally seeing for myself that algae of all kinds thrive best when water/substrate/filter pads/etc are dirty.


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## Blackheart (Jul 5, 2011)

I personally don't care for dirt. Never tried it, but all the upkeep and mess that it creates out of the gate that I have heard about just turn me off to it. It might work great for those who use it and don't mind that part of it.
Personally, I use caribsea sunset gold sand with seachem root tabs and supplement with liquid ferts a few times a week. Does the trick for my tank.

I also never cared for Fluval Stratum either. But that's just me. I tried using it once and it just turned into a big, muddy mess.


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## kizwan (Sep 17, 2019)

Oughtsix said:


> I am 5 years into my dirt bottom (Miracle grow organic) gravel capped tank and my plants show absolutely no signs of slowing down in the least! 5 years and never any CO2 or ferts! I have no plans of replacing the soil, I see absolutely no need to.
> 
> I do believe that dirt takes longer to settle down than store bought substrate (a few months) but once it does and the bacterial colonies in the dirt are established and come to a balance my plants love the environment!


I have same experience. I do have some problem with my dirt (I'm using organic compost soil) tank but the plants grow beautifully & faster too compare to my other low tech tank (ista aquasoil).


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## Anchor (Sep 10, 2016)

Thanks for all the feedback guys. Im all set to start assembly tomorrow.

Rimless 14g

Miracle grow organic potting soil
black flourite cap
GLA ei pack ferts +iron, premixed and then dosed thru a Jabao DP-4 dosing pump
10lbs Dragon stone

Odyssea surface skimmer loaded with ceramic tubes and sponge
kessil a180we with gooseneck mount
Eheim Jaeger heater
Inkbird temp controller setup for failsafe with audible high/low alarm and electric cutout

harris dual stage low pressure co2 regulator
10lb (?? 3 foot tall ??) co2 tank

excited for my new tank!


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## Anchor (Sep 10, 2016)

So it took longer than expected but the tank is up and running. Being my first dirted tank i dont really know what to expect so i have a question.

i have about a 1/2 - 3/4" cap of black flourite.

The first fill the water was pretty brown, which i expected. i did a 90% water change and it cleared up. Then it got foggy and brown tinge again so i did another 90% water change. 

well over night it got foggy and brown tinge again - similair look to tannins in the water. So i just did another 90% water change, and its back to crystal clear. im being real careful adding water as to not disturb the gravel, and theres nothing in the water that should be leaching color off. (no wood, clean rocks) and the only flow is the filter which is aimed up, at the surface. 

Is this normal to have to do a few times, or do i have a spot that the soil is exposed somehow?


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## kizwan (Sep 17, 2019)

Anchor said:


> So it took longer than expected but the tank is up and running. Being my first dirted tank i dont really know what to expect so i have a question.
> 
> i have about a 1/2 - 3/4" cap of black flourite.
> 
> ...


Probably from the dirt. That black fluorite is fine gravel or fine sand? I don't think the cap depth is enough. At least 1.5 to 2 inch of fine gravel/sand.


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## Econde (Oct 13, 2015)

Anchor said:


> So it took longer than expected but the tank is up and running. Being my first dirted tank i dont really know what to expect so i have a question.
> 
> i have about a 1/2 - 3/4" cap of black flourite.
> 
> ...


Yea. Probably some peat in your organic soil. I still get tannins leaching after a month and a half. It's not as dark colored anymore but still leaching none the less.


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