# Dwarf Hairgrass - How many tabs?(low tech)



## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Don't over-do it. I really don't have an exact answer for you but if you put too much in there is no going back!


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## jcmv4792 (Jul 15, 2015)

klibs said:


> if you put too much in there is no going back!


What do you mean by this?


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## PsymonPsays (Jul 1, 2015)

Good luck getting your DHG to grow in Eco-Complete. That substrate isn't really ideal for carpeting. DHG really thrives in sand.


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## Planted_Edge (Apr 29, 2015)

No Co2?
Forget about it..
Monte Carlo carpets fine under low light and excel .


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## jcmv4792 (Jul 15, 2015)

PsymonPsays said:


> Good luck getting your DHG to grow in Eco-Complete. That substrate isn't really ideal for carpeting. DHG really thrives in sand.


How come? I read a few threads here and people seem to have success with dhg and eco 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=12353


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## PsymonPsays (Jul 1, 2015)

Not saying it can't be done, but I've read countless threads about people having issues with it in eco-complete. I have DHG growing under a 30" Planted+ 24/7, in black diamond sand, no CO2, using EI dosing and Osmocote+ root tabs, and after 3 weeks is already sending runners. In eco-complete it may just take longer for the root system to establish. But the best advice anyone has ever given me with DHG is just have patience, and you'll eventually see it take off even overnight.


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## jcmv4792 (Jul 15, 2015)

PsymonPsays said:


> Not saying it can't be done, but I've read countless threads about people having issues with it in eco-complete. I have DHG growing under a 30" Planted+ 24/7, in black diamond sand, no CO2, using EI dosing and Osmocote+ root tabs, and after 3 weeks is already sending runners. In eco-complete it may just take longer for the root system to establish. But the best advice anyone has ever given me with DHG is just have patience, and you'll eventually see it take off even overnight.


Thanks, I'll that in mind.

Is osmocote+ and seachem flourish more or the less the same?


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

It will do much better in sand/gravel capped over dirt, you can have a carpet in a couple of months. In low tech eco-complete successes with DHG are rare/unreliable and not the norm


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## jcmv4792 (Jul 15, 2015)

Xiaozhuang said:


> It will do much better in sand/gravel capped over dirt, you can have a carpet in a couple of months. In low tech eco-complete successes with DHG are rare/unreliable and not the norm


What is the reason for this? Is it because eco complete is more/less compact than sand?

Also does anyone have an answer to the "root tab amount" question?


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

If just using tabs in Eco-complete can grow DHG every low tech tank will be carpeted with it....

just check out the display thread below and see what the average low tech tank looks like; and count the number that have lush full DHG carpets (in Eco-complete).

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=99729


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## aokashi (Jun 12, 2012)

I have a lush dhg low tech tank and I don't use ferts...? it will certainly take a while to carpet, I believe mine took about half a year to fully carpet. I started off with only a few very small emersed plants, and really never intended to completely carpet with DHG, but after much neglect, it eventually took over the foreground. 

the substrate is used eco complete. I think the key to growing DHG in low tech is to give it lots of light. I try to make shade with floaters or stems in all other areas of the tank so I don't get algae from the light overdosage.

Someone mentioned that a trimming of the dhg at the beginning will allow it to grow back thicker, but I've yet to try this. 

4 gallon cube tank filled half way:








edit:

neglected to mention that this is my second experience with a dhg carpet in low tech med-high light tank. The first time it happened it was completely accidental and I yanked it out. But from then on I know DHG would carpet just fine in low tech. I think people who tell you that it can't be done aren't people who work regularly with low tech. Low tech really doesn't mean low light.... I've never touched CO2 in my entire tank keeping experience, And that has given me the opportunity to test the limits of "low tech" tanks. I'd say go for it, you'll never know until you try!


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## jcmv4792 (Jul 15, 2015)

aokashi said:


> I'd say go for it, you'll never know until you try!


True words! I have a bunch of dwarf hairgrass on the way... so I will see what I can do with them. So by no ferts, you mean the only nutrients the hairgrass gets is from fish waste?(no tabs, no liquid, no dry..etc

Do you reccomend I bury the grass deep in the substrate, or just under the surface?(it's 3" of eco complete, and the tank is already filled with water)


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

You can do it in less than two months in low tech dirt...


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## jcmv4792 (Jul 15, 2015)

Wow those are beautiful.


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## PhilthyMcnasty (Oct 16, 2011)

Crappy pic but this is my low tech, dirted with safe-t-zorb capped tank and it grow DHG all over the tank. This also has a 14 watt cfl bulb in a 5 gallon tank.


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## jcmv4792 (Jul 15, 2015)

aokashiow tech really doesn't mean low light.... I've never touched CO2 in my entire tank keeping experience said:


> How do you keep algae from growing without co2?


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## aokashi (Jun 12, 2012)

jcmv4792 said:


> How do you keep algae from growing without co2?



I'd say try to keep a good balance and it should be fine. The only reason you'll have algae is because there are unused nutrients. My dhg needs light so I let the light reach the carpet, but marsilea doesn't need that much light, so I have a piece of drift wood to shade that area. There are floaters in the back which has an endless supply of atmospheric CO2 and can use the extra lighting very efficiently. So they help suck up the rest of the nutrients in the tank. The floaters also act as a shade for areas that doesn't require high light.

I don't fertilize. I feel like it's too easy to throw things out of balance that way. let nature do what nature does best, lots of mulm keeps the dhg happy. lol

Oh and snails. They are my official "cycling" buddy. Snails take care of decaying organic matter and act as an ammonia source. I can't start a tank without dropping a handful of mts and pond snails in the tank. lol! 

That said, I do have some algae that came with the driftwood, but the algae doesn't grow, so I don't worry about it...


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## aokashi (Jun 12, 2012)

jcmv4792 said:


> True words! I have a bunch of dwarf hairgrass on the way... so I will see what I can do with them. So by no ferts, you mean the only nutrients the hairgrass gets is from fish waste?(no tabs, no liquid, no dry..etc
> 
> Do you reccomend I bury the grass deep in the substrate, or just under the surface?(it's 3" of eco complete, and the tank is already filled with water)



sorry for the double post, just noticed this...

I like to plant a bit deeper down...This is how my DHG started out...

I didn't originally have anything growing in the substrate. After about half a year into setting up this tank I planted some DHG on a whim


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## Planted_Edge (Apr 29, 2015)

aokashi said:


> jcmv4792 said:
> 
> 
> > How do you keep algae from growing without co2?
> ...


The first statement is a bit vague for the beginner who doesn't know squat what balance means.

Secondly, unused nutrients are plenty in E.I. tanks , though the "balanced " ones don't have algae.
Those are removed with water changes. 

Last statement just goes to show how little you know about ferts, no offense. 

The balance you're talking about consists of light, co2, nutrients .
So of course if you have low light, nutrients just from the fish waste and some really small amount of co2 then you're safe. 

But the high light you're talking about in your tank doesn't add up...it just doesn't work. Light drives up the need for co2 then need for nutrients ... You add high light and you'll get algae no matter what if the other 2 aren't met to get the "balance"'

Have you measured your light with a PAR meter?


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## aokashi (Jun 12, 2012)

Planted_Edge said:


> The first statement is a bit vague for the beginner who doesn't know squat what balance means.
> 
> Secondly, unused nutrients are plenty in E.I. tanks , though the "balanced " ones don't have algae.
> Those are removed with water changes.
> ...





No offense taken  i don't know anything about ferts, or rather what little I knew has long since been forgotten, lol. I didn't claim that I did either 

I apologize if it seemed like I was touting a specific method. I really wasn't try to.

I only posted here because people kept saying, hey it's super impossibly hard to carpet dhg in low tech without CO2. And I was like, hang on, I have a nice carpet, I've seen other tanks with lower light and a nice carpet. It's definitely doable.

Anywho, the par on this tank is around 500 at substrate level, but that was measured 2 years ago. The light may have weakened.

When I first started off there was a bout of fluffy green algae(I thought it was really cute), but it soon died off.
s
Some photos from when I first started off:








a frw days later...









a few weeks later....








And this was when my tank actually looked nice 















Also when I neglected the tank for half a year, I got hair algae(green string? some kind of clado), but that hasnt come back after I gave everything a trim (and put a filter back in).

Neglect:








I have always been fascinated by bright lighting. I started off with a 25watt cfl directly over a 2.5 gallon for my bettas tank, then moved from that to a 25watt 6500k CFL directly over a 1.5 gallon cube tank( you can see it here next to the current tank that I failed to dry start, lol!) . In the cube tank, the light was 7 inches from the light to the substrate. I did measure the PAR at one point, but I have long since forgotten. but then again...you don't really need a par meter to tell that was a highlight tank.

I do understand the basic correlation between light, nutrients and CO2, and In my mind the mathematical side says it doesn't add up. Unfortunately, I can't tell you why it doesn't add up, I really don't have scientific proof for how it works. But it has for me. I like to think that by limiting nutrients I'm limiting the amount of light and CO2 the plants need to use. Without nutrients algae can't really grow either...? *shrugs*

I do have algae currently, BBA. It's always been there, little tuffets that came with the dw. It doesn't grow much. None at all actually...

Oh, and I don't believe I'm the only one out there where this kind of set up works, hopefully someone will one day experiment enough to document the science behind it all? 

When it comes to it, I'm terrible at giving out advice, but I do know how to run my own tanks. lol!


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## Planted_Edge (Apr 29, 2015)

500 PAR? are you planning to grow driftwood? cuz it might just grow under that much light.


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## aokashi (Jun 12, 2012)

Planted_Edge said:


> 500 PAR? are you planning to grow driftwood? cuz it might just grow under that much light.



lol oops, 50 something PAR. But if the DW does sprout, I'll know what kind of tree it was!


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## Planted_Edge (Apr 29, 2015)

50 PAR is medium light and with CO2 you can grow anything under it.
You should consider lowering it and increase the circulation to get rid of the BBA. Spot treat with excel etc
In such a small tank, the seachem line of ferts and carbon should last a long time.
Will also increase the number of plants you can keep and make them look better as well.
Good luck


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## aokashi (Jun 12, 2012)

Are you trying to help me or the OP?
 I'm not the OP, just in case you got us confused!

As for me, my tank is happy the way it is, it's been running for two years and a good year running by itself with the light on the timer and nothing else.

There are reasons I don't do lower lighting, if I lower my lights the rrf and l. Arcuata won't stay red, which is undesirable in my book, and there is nothing unhappy caused by my lighting that makes me need to lower it. CO2 is too much work and I don't do enough tank maintainance to warrant such a system, i'm also not growing any plants that needs CO2 to survive.

As for BBA I am unconvinced that this algae is caused by light and remedied by circulation. I've seen lush flowing forests of BBA in tanks that are so dimly lit I could not make out the color of the fish. As I mentioned before, the BBA on my wood doesn't grow, I don't want to scrape it off incase I spread it to other areas of my tank. It's just there, and fairly invisible. My shrimps also enjoy grazing in it so... If it ain't broke, then I'm not too keen on "fixing" it  

I have a bottle of excel and a bottle of flourish, also a bottle of home made macros, and a bottle of home made micros (not yet moldy!) and even a bottle of long expired metricide. They have been used at some point in some of my tanks, but now they sit untouched.

50 something PAR was considered high light back in the days (2013) I measured it. Did the definition of high light change? I don't really keep up with these technicalities, so i apologize for my lack of knowledge there.

Either way, thank you for your help


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