# Some simple solutions to using soil in planted tanks



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I set up a number of soil based tanks for some folks, as well as myself for a number of years.

I've suggested things such as a good soak 2-3 weeks prior to use to leach out the NH4. Or alternatively, boiling for 10 minutes or so.

One thing that came up was something I've not seen others mention and many had been using the straight 100% soil on the bottom layer, generally about 1" deep. This works also.

But I never really liked that. My uncle owns a Green house in GA and suggested when I was kid to mix the soil with sand at 50-75% sand for each part soil to reduce the richness and when you uproot, it makes far less mess.

So I've pretty much stuck with it since.

The method is simple and gets around many of the issues that folks have with soil. 

1.Soil is well, dirt cheap. 
2. Rich in all the nutrient goodies
3. Available everywhere
4. Sand is cheap as a sediment gets as well, but lacks the nutrients

Mixing these two works very well.

So, I simply mix 1 part soil to 2-3 parts sand=> wet> then mix good.
You want nice dark sand, not "mud".
Then you add about 2-3" of this and maybe a cap of 1" plain sand.

You can add 3-4 parts sand and use it without any cap actually and then lightly vacuum the top to remove any leftover soil.

While this is not as rich as the pure soil, it also does not reduce the sediment nearly as much, and it's still a lot of soil, just spread out a lot more in 2-3" vs 1".

You can add the "mud cubes" later as the plants get growing well and remove most of the nutrients. Soil + water = mud. Add mud to ice cube trays: freeze. add mud cubes to the plant roots.

You may add anything you want to the soil also, root hormones, KNO3, CaCO3 ,more peat etc.

The results and usefulness are when you replant and the sediment does not get nearly as stinky and reduced, the sand provides better flow and less mess, better able to hold the plant roots down etc.

As far as having less nutrients than a pure soil layer, well think about it.........
the *total amount is still relatively the same*, but instead of a muddy mess, you have it spread interspersed with the sand.

Also, but the time it does run out of fertilizer, the tank's cycling is producing it's own waste to supply the roots/leaves etc.

You can then use the mud cubes etc, or switch KNO3/KH2PO4/Traces at small dosings to accommodate sustained growth.

I think it's pretty easy and folks should try this cheap method out.
It's been around a long long time and works well. Do many water changes for the first 2-4 weeks of a set up if you use CO2 or Excel.

I think this routine will resolve most if not all the issues some folks have with soil.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

You can use a cheap topsoil too... It already has sand in it. And choose something without bark/wood in it and no added fertilizers. 

And the only thing you have to worry about with soil is things going anaerobic. It'll produce hydrogen sulfide gas and smell like a swamp.


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## Algaegrower (Nov 1, 2006)

Hey Tom,
Do you just get the soil out of your garden? If you do how do you tell if its not got anything poisonous to the fish in it?


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## brad (Aug 11, 2005)

What about the point that Diana Walstad brought up about it affecting ph and water hardness (as in increasing it) for a few weeks (pages 129 to 131 of her book). Boiling may fix the ammonia problem, but does it fix the instability problem?

I keep very softwater cichlids (this may be of concern for discus owners as well) and rising ph is a big issue for me.


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## pineapple (Jan 22, 2004)

Soil is not an element. It is a highly variable mixture. In some places, it will be a high percentage of silica (quartz). In others, it will have a high organic content. One should have a good look at soil before making any generalizations. Gardeners are usually aware of whether their soil can support acid loving plants (azaleas, for instance). Look toward information from local gardeners, perhaps, before blindly dumping soil in an aquarium.... my 0.02 cents.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Thank you pineapple for pointing out the blindingly obvious that many people seem to forget.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Some the best soil is wetland soil. Black smelly goo.
We have lots here in the Sac river delta.
Not everyone has one of those however.

I think a decent rich black top soil is useful at a garden center etc.
Want softer water?
Add more peat to the top soil.

Want harder water?
Add limestone and so on.

You have many options available to you and many sources of soil, you can buy, collect your own, go out looking for dirt.

Each soil type will have different characters, but the overall result in the system ought to be reasonably close with some growing more longer than others.

The delta soil I collected was really great, but I used a rich black top soil in the past from Orchard's Supply.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

I can't begin to imagine how contaminated the river bottom is in the Sacramento river delta. How much run off from all the farms and such are in that stuff.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Rex Grigg said:


> I can't begin to imagine how contaminated the river bottom is in the Sacramento river delta. How much run off from all the farms and such are in that stuff.


Oh?

You mean the very same soil that serves the plants that are grown there to dinner tables all across the USA?

There are many farms out there that grow plants after all...............
The soil in the tank is far less of a concern than human health I would think.:icon_idea 

I do not go to the boating docks, I go to the ends of the sloughs, Consumnes is particularly good.

When you speak of contamination, you need to be specific.
Pesticides break down rapidly by bacteria.
Metals are the main issue, but plants, unlike inverts, are highly tolerant of metals and sequester them and bind them, then the plants are trimmed and the nutrients/metals are exported. 
So the main issue is high nutrient levels.

I've taken aquatic toxicology courses that focused specifically on the delta here in CA. I also study and do my research on herbicides on the delta.
Why do you think there are so many aquatic submersed weeds there?

I do agree that some parts are not good, but some common sense goes a long way when collecting soil for tank use. Hopefully those that use collected soil realize that(do not go to the boating ramp and near the sewer dumps etc). 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Kelley (Nov 2, 2006)

Tom,
Do your run CO2 with your soil-based tanks, or do you keep them lower-light?


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## JenThePlantGeek (Mar 27, 2006)

Thanks for the heads up Tom! I saw Dorothy Reimer speak at the AGA Convention and I've been wanting to do a soil setup ever since! I appreciate the step by step, and your method sounds like the way to go (of course Dorothy's method of potting everything would work too, but maybe not be as visually pleasing).


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## jpfelix (Oct 10, 2006)

i'm using flood plain soil for my new 180g. 8x 40# bags at $1.39/bag. you can't beat it! 

it's not any "messier" than eco. and it's easier for me to get than as, sms, etc.


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## stcyrwm (Sep 1, 2005)

Tom,

Nutritionally how does a mix like this compare to a commercial product like ADA Aquasoil?

Any reason you couldn't use a finished compost?

Do you think the mud cubes would help much in an existing base like flourite.

Thanks for the ideas,
Bill


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## Just40Fun (Jul 15, 2005)

Just a thought, instead of mixing with sand. How about mixing with say turfmaster?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I'm running and lab test at the lab to show the differences between this mix, the delta soil, the ADA AS, and the ADA + PS soil in a flow through chamber, the only effects of N and P come solely from the soil/sediment therefore.

It's the 3rd week and the everything is dead even near as the researchers and I can tell, we have 24 pots with various mixes.
4 stems of Eurasian Milfoil which makes good candidate.
I'll do the dry weights and shoot/root ratios etc later next week.
So far things the same. Details will be published in the Barr Report news letter.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Algenco (May 10, 2007)

Great info! The lake here has been lowered 40' for repairs to the dam,exposing mud flat with sticky black soil. Next time I go fishing I think I'll bring a bucket of it home:hihi:


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## son2fu (Mar 16, 2007)

can i buy planting soil? how will the coloration be when it is finished?
is it okay not to boil or soak it to leech out the nh4?


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

son2fu said:


> can i buy planting soil? how will the coloration be when it is finished?
> is it okay not to boil or soak it to leech out the nh4?


you can just spread out the soil to dry. The ammonia will evaporate. Try to use top soil.. A lot of the garden soil have extra ferts like Urea & chicken poop in them which you don't want for fish health issues & algae issues.


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## son2fu (Mar 16, 2007)

where would i find this topsoil? around the house? just like anything?


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

son2fu said:


> where would i find this topsoil? around the house? just like anything?


Yeah, some people just go into their backyard and use that. Just watch for pesticides & herbicides. Or you can get a cheap bag of 'top soil' from Home Depot.. Avoid the ones with a lot of wood chips in them. A nice black earth is good.

If you want to test the soil before using it, just dump 1"-2" of it in a plastic bottle of water and let it sit for a few days - weeks. See how the it reacts to the water like cloudiness, ammonia, PH, anaerobic situations, etc...


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## cott (May 26, 2007)

My biggest problem is I read too much. I don't want my soil to rot and smell but I read buying the commerical can do that. It seems to me the commerical would be cleaner than what I dig out of the yard.

I assume the stink comes from the top soil compacting in the tank so I wonder if adding with sand would help that problem.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Adding sand to the mix does not stop any stink, it just reduces it and the mess.
The main point is not trying to make thick distinct layer. Rather, make a mixture 3x less messy and spread out, yet still the same total volume of soil.

Ponds etc near the edge also work, grab a shovel, bucket, dig and then if you want, you can screen out any larger chunks etc.
A nice peaty blackish clay is ideal. I just got 2000lbs of delta sediment for my lab experiments. That's where the aquatic weeds are, so that is what I use.

By soaking or boiling, you remove most of the stink source.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Joetee (Mar 28, 2006)

Tom,
I would like to stir this thread back up. It took me 2 days to find something like this. I read something about it months ago. I have a new 50 gallon tank now and was wanting to go low tech with soil but didn't know how to make it work.

I went down to a local creek and got a bucket of clean looking soil from the edge of the water and then started looking on these forums on how to do it.
Well I finally found this one. 

Cool... I'm going to give it a try. I'll keep you posted on its progress.

Thanks for all your research.

Joe


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## mette (Jun 3, 2005)

I agree that any soil layer should be small and/or cut with whatever will make up the top layer. My last tank used a layered substrate -- a layer of equal parts soil, sand, and kitty litter under a layer of quartz sand. I liked it more than the SMS substrate in my current tank. 

I may switch back, so I'm considering various ingredients (red clay, leaf mulch, zeolite, etc.) for the soil layer. If anyone has a favorite, I'd love to hear it.


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## sprucetree (Nov 5, 2008)

So glade that I found this thread! I just have a few questions.
This is not mineralized soil but does use soil, would it not be recommended that I use EI dosing just like in the mineral soil set up or should I be dosing ferts in this soil set up?
When should the soil be replace or not at all?


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

sprucetree said:


> So glade that I found this thread! I just have a few questions.
> This is not mineralized soil but does use soil, would it not be recommended that I use EI dosing just like in the mineral soil set up or should I be dosing ferts in this soil set up?
> When should the soil be replace or not at all?


The jury is really out on that one. Some say yes and some say no. If you stick to the natural planted tank method as laid out by Diana Walstad or stick to mineralized topsoil as laid out by ScMurphy, then you would not dose anything in the water column at all except trace amounts of potassium 3-6 months for mineralized topsoil. If you stick to soil, then you have to decide, as there really is no right or wrong answer and I believe other factors come into play, such as your fish stocking levels, frequency of water changes, whether you inject c02 or not, and how whether you plan to go with low light, mid light, or high light.


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