# Small schooling fish



## gotcheaprice (Aug 29, 2007)

Does anyone have a suggestion for a really small fish that schools? I'm looking to stock a 10 gallon with about 15-20 of them to get the effect of a school of birds. The smallest fish I found was phoenix rosaboras but I couldn't find out if they school or not. I was considering cardinal tetras since I heard those are the most common schoolers, but I feel like 15 would be too much for a 10 gallon.
Any suggestions as to what I could probably find locally?

Actually, I was thinking maybe 5-8 cardinals and 5-8 sparrow/phoenix rosaboras with maybe around 10 amanos/rcs. I don't know if the shrimp will go well with the scape, but I've always wanted amanos.


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## jetajockey (Aug 23, 2010)

Hi gotcheaprice, I think that the cardinals are going to be a bit much for that tank. Given that they reach up to about 2" each, I would only stock 4-5 of them and leave it at that as far as fish go. Even then, a 10 really doesn't give much room to play around with. I've never kept those rasboras, but there are quite a few nano species (lambchop rasbora/CPD/etc, theres a list somewhere) that would probably give you the effect you are looking for. Just try not to overstock, as it can easily lead to water quality issues.

*edit* i looked up the phoenix rasboras, they look awesome, and are small, I wouldn't hesitate to put 6-7 or so in a 10, with some inverts.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

I think you should go with the rasboras. Cardinals can get pretty big and take all the food at feeding time, which would be problematic for the rasboras.


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## gotcheaprice (Aug 29, 2007)

Oh wow, those cardinals get big, thought I read they only got up to 1.25". But ok, I guess I'll look for something like 6-7 phoenix rosaboras if I get my hands on them. I was looking at those CPDs too, but they're quite expensive but pretty. Do you know if they school too?
I saw the nano list, but the nano list was quite large so I don't think I could search each one and find a nice schooling one.

Would throwing in 2 Otos/SAEs be too much? I think I read that they are schooling fish but I often see them in nanos. 

Oh, I guess I'll put the specs on my tank just in case.
11.4 gallon Mr. Aqua (Oh yeah, it's 11.4 gallons, don't think it'll make that much of a difference)
Eheim 2213
Pressurized CO2
36 W archaea light. 
Iwagumi styled (with only HC and rotala wallichii at the moment)
Dosing EI 3 times a week.


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## jetajockey (Aug 23, 2010)

CPD's will shoal, but they don't school tightly. I would go with otos over SAE's, my SAE's are just under 3inches long. Both otos and SAE really should be kept 3 or more.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Chili Rasboras


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## gotcheaprice (Aug 29, 2007)

jetajockey said:


> CPD's will shoal, but they don't school tightly. I would go with otos over SAE's, my SAE's are just under 3inches long. Both otos and SAE really should be kept 3 or more.


Ah, ok. Would 3 otos still be too big though? I'm currently thinking this will be my stock list:
5-7 amanos
3 Otos (maybe 2-3 CPDs or none at all if it appears over crowded, won't really need the otos if I have amano and nerites)
5-8 Phoenix/Chili Rasbora
2 nerite snails

Water changes will happen once a week.


Dave-H said:


> Chili Rasboras


Ah, was looking at those too, but don't they get bigger than the phoenix? They seem more common than the phoenix though. 


I will post pics of my tank soon!


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## jetajockey (Aug 23, 2010)

i would get a group of at least 4-5 CPD's, they aren't tight schoolers but are very timid and need more of their kind for company. They also really appreciate a well planted tank. I think that's when you'll see the best out of them.

You could probably manage 4-5 of each species and 3 otos, it would be slightly overstocked on the inch/gal guideline, but these fish really aren't messy at all, and have a very small streamlined body mass. You may have to step up on your filtration a bit, or have more frequent water changes, but I think it'll be fine, and a lovely choice.


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## Jaggedfury (Sep 11, 2010)

Celestial Pearl Danio or White clouds are small. 15-20 of them would look great schooling.


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## unissuh (Jun 5, 2006)

Most of the fish suggested so far only really shoal at best, do you want fish that stick together? If so: Corydoras pygmaeus, Microdevario kubotai & ember tetras are all small fish that are fairly good at sticking together (in order of "socialness").

Another comment, if bird-like is a criteria, fish from the Pseudomugil genus have little pectoral fins typically with a splash of color that they flap constantly, gives a bit of a bird impression. Shoalers at best though, aren't tight schooling.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

unissuh said:


> Most of the fish suggested so far only really shoal at best, do you want fish that stick together?


What do you mean? is there a difference between shoaling and schooling?


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

In my experience otos can get quite large, maxing out at 1.75 inches long.


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## unissuh (Jun 5, 2006)

Dave-H said:


> What do you mean? is there a difference between shoaling and schooling?


Shoaling is more like loosely grouping for security, though doesn't appear organized at all. You'll typically find that when these fish are comfortable in their surroundings they don't really tend to group up at all and scatter all over the tank until you scare them.

Schooling fish as an absolute definition tend to swim in the same direction & move together, I can't think of any absolute schoolers in this regard but some are pretty close.

Another thought for closely grouping fish - harlequin rasboras or similar (e.g. Hengeli's etc), though these are a little bigger.


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## gotcheaprice (Aug 29, 2007)

unissuh said:


> Most of the fish suggested so far only really shoal at best, do you want fish that stick together? If so: Corydoras pygmaeus, Microdevario kubotai & ember tetras are all small fish that are fairly good at sticking together (in order of "socialness").
> 
> Another comment, if bird-like is a criteria, fish from the Pseudomugil genus have little pectoral fins typically with a splash of color that they flap constantly, gives a bit of a bird impression. Shoalers at best though, aren't tight schooling.


I think I might go with the neon yellow rasbora and ember tetras if I can find them (school colors!). Prob 6 each. I don't necessarily need them to look like birds, but rather give the impression when it's back lit at night. More of an idea, not really a requirement either, but I do want tighter schoolers. Though my friend said the yellow rasboras are a bit plain, haha. 

So
6 neon yellow rasbora
6 ember tetra
6-8 amano
2 nerite


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

unissuh said:


> Shoaling is more like loosely grouping for security, though doesn't appear organized at all. You'll typically find that when these fish are comfortable in their surroundings they don't really tend to group up at all and scatter all over the tank until you scare them.
> 
> Schooling fish as an absolute definition tend to swim in the same direction & move together, I can't think of any absolute schoolers in this regard but some are pretty close.
> 
> Another thought for closely grouping fish - harlequin rasboras or similar (e.g. Hengeli's etc), though these are a little bigger.


I looked on the internet for a while when I had this question in the past, but never got a clear answer. Lot's of contradictory answers, though. Does anyone have a definitive answer (with a source, maybe) about whether these are different things?


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## mgamer20o0 (Mar 8, 2007)

gotcheaprice said:


> I think I might go with the neon yellow rasbora and ember tetras if I can find them (school colors!). Prob 6 each. I don't necessarily need them to look like birds, but rather give the impression when it's back lit at night. More of an idea, not really a requirement either, but I do want tighter schoolers. Though my friend said the yellow rasboras are a bit plain, haha.
> 
> So
> 6 neon yellow rasbora
> ...


personally i think going with one type of fish and more of them is going to look a lot better. the bigger the group the more natural they act.


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## gotcheaprice (Aug 29, 2007)

mgamer20o0 said:


> personally i think going with one type of fish and more of them is going to look a lot better. the bigger the group the more natural they act.


Actually I was thinking that, so probably ~8 ember tetras. Maybe I can add one or two slightly larger fish, I guess something flashier too.

Looking up ember tetra and they're supposed to be hard to find and pretty expensive too. Damn, I guess as long as I have my amanos I'll be patient enough.


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## mgamer20o0 (Mar 8, 2007)

they are not too expensive. they do show up at the lfs from time to time. if you cant find any let me know i might be able to help. i dont know i think when you see them you see how much they pop and might only want to go with 12-15 of them. lol


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## gotcheaprice (Aug 29, 2007)

mgamer20o0 said:


> they are not too expensive. they do show up at the lfs from time to time. if you cant find any let me know i might be able to help. i dont know i think when you see them you see how much they pop and might only want to go with 12-15 of them. lol


Hah, you may be right. I was looking on scape and saw that A+ has them (not sure for how much), but I have to wait for a friend to bring his car from home to take me there some time (stranded college student). I guess that'll give my tank a lot of time to establish before I get them.
I think I probably will go with 10-12ish and I really wanted either ottos or pygmy corries(don't know why, but bottom dwellers seemed to catch my attention while searching).


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## we4wieners (Oct 9, 2010)

I just stocked a tank with 8 harlequin's. I think they will do what it is you are looking for. They stick together and are very active. I am a firm believer in Harleaquins now.


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## gotcheaprice (Aug 29, 2007)

So I was looking up pygmy corries and I read that they prefer dark covered areas. Will they be fine if most of my tank is open with barely any cover and pretty brightly lit?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Give them a cave to go into when they want.


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## gotcheaprice (Aug 29, 2007)

I don't wanna mess with the scape at the moment so I think I'll just get Otos.
Here's the tank:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/planted-nano-tanks/119190-11-4-mr-aqua.html


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## Pookie Bear (Sep 2, 2010)

I have red chili rasboras in my tank and they are pretty small. They also group together.


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## random_alias (Jun 28, 2005)

Dave-H said:


> I looked on the internet for a while when I had this question in the past, but never got a clear answer. Lot's of contradictory answers, though. Does anyone have a definitive answer (with a source, maybe) about whether these are different things?


Shoaling

Let's say you and 5 other buddies are hanging out on the playground. You probably stay in roughly the same area, so as to be in eye and ear shot of each other. This allows you to to talk to any or each of your 5 other buddies. If one of you decides to move to the other side of the playground, you all probably head that way in one way or another and then regroup, sitting or standing in roughly the same area. However, you are not sitting soo close to each other as to feel crowded or as if your personal space is being invaded. You are a social group but you are casually together, still able to do your own thing. If someone else walks over to talk to you, they don't have to push their way through your friends. You can easily change your identity from being a part of the group to being an individual within the group. You are not all entirely single-minded and functioning as one. If a group of bullies walk over and give you trouble, you are all close enough to each other to form a tighter group and be ready for trouble. You are shoaling with your buddies.

Schooling

You are a celebrity. Despite your best efforts, word of which hotel you are staying at has leaked to the public and soon the press is mobbing the entrance to your hotel, pushing through and hopping over each other, hoping to get a photo of you before you've had a chance to comb your hair. Your assistant sees this mob at the entrance and arranges for you to slip out a side door. As you exit the alley and head into the parking lot to get in your parked (mandatory) Escalade, one of the reporters happens to glance over and see you. He yells, "THERE HE IS!!"

All of a sudden, the entire mob turns into a river of reporters, all running in the same direction, at the same time, waving their arms and stretching their microphones out, all asking, "Mr. Heath, do you intend to keep that hairstyle or are you just trying something new today?" "Is it true that you slept with a sheep while in rehab?" Even after they reach and surround your Escalade, they still stay soo close together that they have to push through each other in order to leave their own fresh cheek smear on your tinted windows. After your driver pulls out and floors it, the entire group once again leaves the area together, running as a very tight group after your car. They are a group of people moving together, all after the same thing, all functioning as one, all knowing that if they stay close enough to each other, if one of them gets to ask a question they will probably all be able to record the answer, and if security starts spraying mace, they stand a better chance of not getting hit since the group is so large and tightly compacted. They are obnoxious...I mean...schooling. They stay and move together in a pack to increase the odds of everyone benefiting from a discovery and also for protection, hoping something bad will happen to the next guy while they get a chance to escape.


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## chris.rivera3 (Apr 15, 2008)

couldn't have explained it better...very nice explanation! roud:




random_alias said:


> Shoaling
> 
> Let's say you and 5 other buddies are hanging out on the playground. You probably stay in roughly the same area, so as to be in eye and ear shot of each other. This allows you to to talk to any or each of your 5 other buddies. If one of your decides to move to the other side playground, you all probably head that way in one way or another and then regroup, sitting or standing in roughly the same area. However, you are not sitting soo close to each other as to feel crowded or as if your personal space is being invaded. You are a social group but you are casually together, still able to do your own thing. If someone else walks over to talk to you, they don't have to push their way through your friends. You can easily change your identity from being a part of the group to being an individual within the group. You are not all entirely single-minded and functioning as one. If a group of bullies walk over and give you trouble, you are all close enough to each other to form a tighter group and be ready for trouble. You are shoaling with your buddies.
> 
> ...


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## chris.rivera3 (Apr 15, 2008)

...when selecting your school of fish, also keep in mind that your water volume/capacity will significantly get smaller as you add in your substrate, rocks (for your iwagumi) and plants...in your 11 gallon Mr. Aqua you probably will only have about 7-8 gallons of actually free space water...I have a rimless jebo 9 gallon tank but after all my substrate and plants i'm only really down to about 7 gallons of water....it is stock with RCS, amanos and approx. 15 chilli rasboras


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## beedee (Jul 1, 2010)

i have a 10 gallon.

i had 8 hengeli rasboras, they schooled fairly tightly more often than not. they were really fun fish to watch, often playing in the stream output from the spraybar. (sold them)

i now have 12 Celestial Pearl Danios (Galaxy Rasboras), they dont school much at all, and only really shoal if i approach the tank in a quick manner. they do frolic, and are fun to watch.

they live happily with one oto and about 30 rcs (ranging from tiny to adult).


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## Klivian (Jul 8, 2010)

we4wieners said:


> I just stocked a tank with 8 harlequin's. I think they will do what it is you are looking for. They stick together and are very active. I am a firm believer in Harleaquins now.


Ditto that. I wouldn't advise fewer than 7, though.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

ROFL @ RandomAlias!!!!

roud:


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## gotcheaprice (Aug 29, 2007)

I think I've decided on ember tetras for the schooling fish, maybe around 10, 3-4 pygmy cories, ~7 amano, 2 zebra nerite, and 3 horned nerites(nerites from mgamer!). 

Though I do have a request from a nagging friend for a "tropical colorful" fish, so I guess something small and fancy that won't really impact the bioload. I was thinking 2-3 fancy male guppies, but would ember tetra nip their tails? I would love GBRs but my tank is too small, haha. 
Maybe a pair of dwarf gouramis? 

And I'm not too worried about over stocking the tank anymore as I'll be setting up a 30C very soon too so if it feels over crowded, I can move some of the livestock over.


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## unissuh (Jun 5, 2006)

Embers aren't colorful?  They wouldn't nip tails but I'd probably skip the guppies anyway because they would look a bit out of place. 

I'd also forget about the dwarf gourami pair, pairs are never a good idea. Chances of it working IME are pretty slim, heavily planted or not. One or 3+ is the way to go IMO.

Would be pretty full with the stock you have described already, I actually think that unless it is quite cluttered with decor it will look quite crowded in there. Why not just wait until you've already got the stock in there for a little while before you look for other fish?


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## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

jetajockey said:


> Hi gotcheaprice, I think that the cardinals are going to be a bit much for that tank. Given that they reach up to about 2" each, I would only stock 4-5 of them and leave it at that as far as fish go. Even then, a 10 really doesn't give much room to play around with. I've never kept those rasboras, but there are quite a few nano species (lambchop rasbora/CPD/etc, theres a list somewhere) that would probably give you the effect you are looking for. Just try not to overstock, as it can easily lead to water quality issues.
> 
> *edit* i looked up the phoenix rasboras, they look awesome, and are small, I wouldn't hesitate to put 6-7 or so in a 10, with some inverts.


they are very small, I would think you could get more than just that if you keep the tank densely planted and keep on top of water changes.


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## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

Dave-H said:


> I looked on the internet for a while when I had this question in the past, but never got a clear answer. Lot's of contradictory answers, though. Does anyone have a definitive answer (with a source, maybe) about whether these are different things?


The explanation provided matches what I was told too. My "emerald rasbora" (cousin to the CPD) shoal very good, they hang out in the same part of the tank, and move from one part of the tank to another together, but that is about as far as it goes. The rest of the time they are doing their own thing in the side of the tank the group decides on. 

Rummy nose tetras school like no other, they are always facing the same direction, the move as one, and very rarely ever leave to do their own thing. 

I am not sure of the chili or phoenix rasbora (they are on my stocking list for my ten gal too. And the Ember tetras as well. They seem to be shoalers to me by observing them in other tanks.


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## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

gotcheaprice said:


> I think I've decided on ember tetras for the schooling fish, maybe around 10, 3-4 pygmy cories, ~7 amano, 2 zebra nerite, and 3 horned nerites(nerites from mgamer!).
> 
> Though I do have a request from a nagging friend for a "tropical colorful" fish, so I guess something small and fancy that won't really impact the bioload. I was thinking 2-3 fancy male guppies, but would ember tetra nip their tails? I would love GBRs but my tank is too small, haha.
> Maybe a pair of dwarf gouramis?
> ...


you will get a tropical colorful fish with the embers, given enough light over the tank those things absolutely GLOW orange. Very beautiful fish. and being just under 1" full grown you can put quite a few in.


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## TLE041 (Jan 16, 2010)

I have a school of 15 pheonix rasboras and they are definitely schoolers. Because they're torpedo-shaped, they form very tight schools.


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## gotcheaprice (Aug 29, 2007)

I guess I'll just go with the 10 ember tetras or phoenix rasboras. I'll think about that dwarf gourami later.

I wonder what I should get for my 30c...










Found this in another thread, so hopefully plants + 50% weekly water changes would be good. And It's mostly bottom dwellers so I don't think it'll look too crowded with that current stocking list.


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## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

gotcheaprice said:


> I guess I'll just go with the 10 ember tetras or phoenix rasboras. I'll think about that dwarf gourami later.
> 
> I wonder what I should get for my 30c...
> 
> ...


You are going to run out of substrate space for all those bottom dwellers lol. Zebra Nerites are pretty big in terms of snails. Mine are about 3/4" across. Amano shrimp also get pretty big, with the females topping off at about 2"-2.5" and the males about 1-1.5" at full grown. You also might have problems with having that many algae eaters with making sure they have enough to graze on. the Nerites do not take to algae wafers too well. The horned nerites is about all I would do in terms of nerites. They stay small, about the size of a green pea. 


I use www.seriouslyfish.com to do the research on the fish I think I might want. You should head on over and take a peak. I highly vote for the Embers, and a handful of the Chili's, maybe a few Amano's, the horned nerites and the cory's or more (make sure you have a sand substrate for them)


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## gotcheaprice (Aug 29, 2007)

Thanks for the help! I wasn't planning on keeping all the amano in this tank actually, probably gonna move some to my 30C. I think I only chose 10 because that was the least I could find shipped, so if I get them in store, I'd probably only get like 4-5. Hopefully the amano eat the algae wafers and leave my tons of brown algae and flakes to the nerites. I already bought the nerites so I guess I'm sort of stuck with them right now.

And for the pygmy cory, is the sand necessary? I don't really want to mix substrates especially since the tank is already set up. I could just go with otos later. 

I can't wait to get to a LFS to find these fish.


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## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

gotcheaprice said:


> Thanks for the help! I wasn't planning on keeping all the amano in this tank actually, probably gonna move some to my 30C. I think I only chose 10 because that was the least I could find shipped, so if I get them in store, I'd probably only get like 4-5. Hopefully the amano eat the algae wafers and leave my tons of brown algae and flakes to the nerites. I already bought the nerites so I guess I'm sort of stuck with them right now.
> 
> And for the pygmy cory, is the sand necessary? I don't really want to mix substrates especially since the tank is already set up. I could just go with otos later.
> 
> I can't wait to get to a LFS to find these fish.


Cory's will spend most of the time on the substrate or plants, Any kind of harsh substrate can damage their barbels. You will also want to be on top of keeping your substrate as clean as it can be.

Here is an article on the choices for substrates for cory's
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=2687

The amano do not care where they get their algae from lol. Mine used to fight over the wafer all of the time when I had them in a 10 gal. Now they get enough food to take what they need. I had been using spirulina sinking pellets for a long time, and they would eat them like apples lol.


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## gotcheaprice (Aug 29, 2007)

I'm using azoo plant bed substrate which is pretty much the same as ADA AS, but most of it should be covered with HC by the time I get them. The article said that a fine substrate isn't necessary for the pygmy but how about no substrate area at all? Haha, I guess I can wait on those anyways, really want the embers first!


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## Noahma (Oct 18, 2009)

gotcheaprice said:


> I'm using azoo plant bed substrate which is pretty much the same as ADA AS, but most of it should be covered with HC by the time I get them. The article said that a fine substrate isn't necessary for the pygmy but how about no substrate area at all? Haha, I guess I can wait on those anyways, really want the embers first!


might be good to go  I am probably going to get some Ember's here in the next month as well. I had heard so much about them, and then saw them in a planted display tank at a LFS and knew I had to have some lol. I usually shy away from orange fish, because they are really just orange, and not that bright. But these suckers were glowing.


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