# Shrimp Grading



## mixedinverttank (Jul 18, 2011)

ok so honestly i saw a thread like this before and i think its a great idea. Grading shrimp other then CRS would be a great idea. I mean i would sell a CPO that is orange for more than one that is almost a clear orange or a dark brown orange. For cherries there should be grading too. Like different S grades and then the final is sakura.


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## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

Personally, I think the CRS grading system is a little silly. C, B, A, S, SS, SS+, SSS, SSS+, SSS+ FancyName1, SSS+ FancyName2... And all of this is based on the amount and pattern of white. There are no corresponding grades for high-quality mostly-red CRS. The grading system is too rigid and doesn't leave much room for new developments.

I'm pretty familiar with the varieties of cherry shrimp, but I can't say much for other shrimp species. For Neocaridinas, I think the grading scale should be linear with clearly defined differences between grades. I think the lowest grade should be wild-type for all neos, regardless of color, then the grade would increase in small increments leading up to the highest color coverage and saturation possible for that shrimp. And however it is done, I think the shrimp should be graded based on the males, not the females. The males seem to give a better idea of the real quality of the strain.

Example for Red Cherry Shrimp (Remember, we would only be looking at the males; females don't count towards the grade):
Grade A - Wild type
Grade B - Wild type with a few red spots
Grade C - Red spots are evenly spread over body
Grade D - Heavy red spotting
Grade E - Red is even and no longer appears spotty (Red fire)
Grade F - Same as Grade E, just with a stripe down the back
Grade G - Red covers legs, may or may not have dorsal stripe
Grade H - Red covers legs and antennae, may or may not have dorsal stripe
Grade I - Red covers legs and antennae, color is dense and bright and seems to be opaque (Painted red fire)

This kind of grading system could be adapted to the other color morphs without much difficulty, and since it is open-ended, new developments could be given the next letter instead of just getting a plus sign.


I also think each color morph needs a specific name besides its color. That way, when you search for it on Ebay, Aquabid, or Google, you would get the grade and color you were looking for without your search being cluttered by inaccurate results. 

So far, what names do we have?
Red: Red Fire, Sakura, Taiwan Fire, Painted Fire Red
Yellow: Fire Yellow, Intense Yellow
Blue: Blue Pearl, Blue Fire, Aura Blue

The problem with those names is that they confuse the grading system. If one person calls a shrimp "Fire red," but another calls it "Grade E," it will confuse people and make it harder to find the shrimp in a search. And while calling a shrimp by its color seems simple and straightforward, if you search for "blue shrimp" on Aquabid, you might end up with a bunch of auctions for red shrimp written in blue letters.

So, what other names could we use instead? To limit ambiguity in searches, unique words or spellings are best. Here are some off the top of my head:
Red: Cherry (why fix what's not broken?)
Yellow: Suni/sunni, Gold, Amber, Venus, Leo, Citrus, Citrine, Solar, Dandel (from "dandelion") 
Blue: (If not Pearl or Aura) Aqua, Azure, Lantic (from "Atlantic"), Cobalt, Lazuli
Orange: Sienna, Lava, Saffron, Ember
Green: Atomic/Tomic, Emerald, Jade, Kelly, Lime, Shamrock
Purple: Byzan/Byzantine, Vio/Veo, Violet, Ube, Regal, Wisteria 
Black: Charcoal, Coal, Jet, Obsidian/Sidian, Midnight, Nightfall, Stealth, Ebony, Meteor, Asteroid, Devil

Some of those may sound weird, but look at this example list:
Grade G Cherry Shrimp
Grade E Solar Shrimp
Grade D Aura Shrimp
Grade D Saffron Shrimp
Grade F Kelly Shrimp
Grade B Veo Shrimp
Grade C Nightfall Shrimp

Those are all much more specific than "intense yellow cherry shrimp." The color is described without being mentioned, so it makes searches more accurate. If you used those names, you would likely get exactly what you were looking for.

The trick will be getting other people to accept the new names. I think we should vote on a name for each color, and then make an effort to refer to that color by that name on Ebay, Aquabid, and in forum posts and threads. At first, it may only be used in this forum, but after a while, other people will catch on and start using the name themselves.

The best way to introduce the grading system would be to put it on a separate site, such as the Shrimp Lab, so when people search for "cherry shrimp grades" that's what they'll find. Without any other sites to contradict this grading system, I bet a lot of people would just go along with it.


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## wetworks (Jul 22, 2011)

I have noticed the same trend toward nominal grading that is VERY subjective in these shrimps. There appears to be no real standard, which would certainly be a help to hobbyists by letting internet buyers know better what to expect when they order shrimps and by allowing breeders to focus on a particular grade to breed truer strains. I also believe that other desirable strains of freshwater dwarf shrimps would benefit from having more clear descriptions. Part of the issue, in my opinion, is that real progress in keeping and breeding freshwater inverts is a relatively new phenomenon. It is my hope that the attention to detail that saltwater hobbyists give to their inverts will rub off on freshwater hobbyists once more people begin to see these freshwater species as a viable (and attractive and interesting) addition to their home aquariums.


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## Bahugo (Apr 18, 2011)

Fishly said:


> I'm pretty familiar with the varieties of cherry shrimp, but I can't say much for other shrimp species. For Neocaridinas, I think the grading scale should be linear with clearly defined differences between grades. I think the lowest grade should be wild-type for all neos, regardless of color, then the grade would increase in small increments leading up to the highest color coverage and saturation possible for that shrimp. And however it is done, I think the shrimp should be graded based on the males, not the females. The males seem to give a better idea of the real quality of the strain.
> 
> Example for Red Cherry Shrimp (Remember, we would only be looking at the males; females don't count towards the grade):
> Grade A - Wild type
> ...


:icon_eek: My brain would hurt if I had to consider a grading system like that for all neocardinas species. Although I think it could be interesting too see a grading system implemented for other dwarf shrimp species, something this comprehensive would be rather over kill. 

One thing to consider is a "grade A" Cherry shrimp, and a "grade I" cherry shrimp, while it will fetch more money, the price difference is minimal. 

A "grade C" Crystal red shrimp, compared to a "grade SSS+" crystal red shrimp is a huge price difference. There is also different color patterns which are named in the grading system (i.e v-band, tigertooth, mosura crown) which is the reasoning behind having a comprehensive grading scale. 

That's my 2cents on why a comprehensive grading scale for species such as Chery shrimp hasn't become very universal. Also, a "Fire painted cherry shrimp" is pretty understandable, but if crs didn't have a grading scale it would be pretty tedious trying to picture "almost solid white CRS with 2 small tiny red blotches on the back side that resemble a crown kinda?". A grading system for CRS and similar species helps simplify things, a comprehensive grading system for neocardinas species would over-complicate things. that's just my 2 cents though.


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## ramawo (Jun 12, 2008)

Picture will help shimp grading !


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## jasonpatterson (Apr 15, 2011)

I really don't care for the grading systems at all, as they are completely subjective. If we were talking about ease of care or some such, it would make sense, but someone deciding that the whiter crystal reds are more desirable is ENTIRELY a fashion statement. I've said it on here before, but I think they look awful and greatly prefer the low grade shrimp. Yes, I realize that I can just buy the low grade shrimp and ignore the higher grades. It's the implication that the higher grades are actually superior that is given to new hobbyists that bothers me.

In my opinion, and I realize that is it just that, an opinion, a descriptive name plus a picture of the animal is more than sufficient. 



Bahugo said:


> A "grade C" Crystal red shrimp, compared to a "grade SSS+" crystal red shrimp is a huge price difference. There is also different color patterns which are named in the grading system (i.e v-band, tigertooth, mosura crown) which is the reasoning behind having a comprehensive grading scale.
> 
> ...
> 
> if crs didn't have a grading scale it would be pretty tedious trying to picture "almost solid white CRS with 2 small tiny red blotches on the back side that resemble a crown kinda?"


This says it all. There's no objective reason why the white are better than the red, but the cost is hugely different. The "if" part is what gets me. If CRS didn't have a grading scale, they wouldn't be selling a shrimp called "almost solid white CRS with 2 small tiny red blotches on the back side that resemble a crown kinda" because nobody would have decided that that was particularly desirable. Maybe there would be some variety name including the fact that it was white with a couple of polka dots. Instead we've got shiny SSS+mosura!!! :bounce: 

CRS breeders have run into a problem. They produced a line of shrimp that was hugely profitable, bred its coloration further and further to whiteness as the lower grades became common and less profitable, but now they've reached the inevitable conclusion, a white shrimp. Once you get there, you can't go any farther in breeding to produce "new" shrimp to market at a high premium. The result, inventing new varieties that feature polka dots in particular patterns.


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## wetworks (Jul 22, 2011)

I agree with jasonpatterson about the alleged 'superiority' of what are considered to be higher grade CRS, and I also find the bright red coloration of the lower grades a bit more attractive. The only real function of the current grading system is to provide more money to the people who set up the grading; breeders and importers who have a vested interest in seeing their particular variety of shrimp become fashionable. I do agree with a system that can be used for identification purposes, but one based on grading for value is going to be skewed heavily in the direction of the person doing the breeding/importing/grading. How about instead of using the current confusing system of grading that infers product superiority simply using one that was based on percentages: 10% Red CRS, or 30% Red CRS, etc. This way the grades would have some real descriptive meaning rather than a product placement marketing gimmick...


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## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

wetworks said:


> I agree with jasonpatterson about the alleged 'superiority' of what are considered to be higher grade CRS, and I also find the bright red coloration of the lower grades a bit more attractive.


If the red color is more valuable to you, then invent a separate grading system for it. Saying the grading system is bad because you don't agree with its goal is like saying dog shows are pointless because you prefer cats.



wetworks said:


> The only real function of the current grading system is to provide more money to the people who set up the grading; breeders and importers who have a vested interest in seeing their particular variety of shrimp become fashionable. I do agree with a system that can be used for identification purposes, but one based on grading for value is going to be skewed heavily in the direction of the person doing the breeding/importing/grading.


I disagree. The purpose of the grading system is to set standards to help people achieve breeding goals. If one person is breeding for Trait 1, another for Trait 2, and another for Trait 3, each will make progress at a varying rate. However, if all three of them are breeding for Trait 4, the focused effort will lead to a faster rate of progress. In this case, standard = group goal.

Now, having a set standard doesn't mean that that standard is the best or that everyone should like it. It means that a large group of people have agreed on a goal and organized their efforts to achieve that goal collaboratively, instead of each going in a different direction. There will always be people who don't like the goal, and choose to pursue another. This is why different varieties and breeds of animals are developed. 

Shrimp aren't graded for the purpose of making them popular. They're graded based on how close they come to the breeder's ideal. The matter of popularity is simply a result of having something that appeals to a lot of people. A group of people usually progresses toward a goal faster than a single person, causing the majority to seem to dominate over the minority. That the majority has set a standard for themselves doesn't mean that they are being elitist or trying to make others think their shrimp are the best; it means that they are striving to obtain something _they_ want. A large group of people all wanting the same thing is not inherently bad. 

For example: Do those that breed black labs think they are better than yellow labs? Maybe. Does that mean they really are? No. Does thinking black is better or worse than yellow mean that they are being elitist? No, it means they have an opinion.

Remember: Just because your opinion is different from the opinion of the majority, doesn't mean that the majority has a bad opinion.




> My brain would hurt if I had to consider a grading system like that for all neocardinas species. Although I think it could be interesting too see a grading system implemented for other dwarf shrimp species, something this comprehensive would be rather over kill.


Why does it make your brain hurt? It's not that complicated. More color = higher grade. All I did was set milestones. If there are no specific differences between one grade and another, then there's no point in grading them. 



> One thing to consider is a "grade A" Cherry shrimp, and a "grade I" cherry shrimp, while it will fetch more money, the price difference is minimal.


So? Grading is based on color, not price. Like I said above, the purpose of grading shrimp is to make it easier for people to achieve a breeding goal. It's not to make their shrimp more expensive. Low cost doesn't mean it's not worth grading. A low-grade blue pearl may cost more than a high-grade cherry, but that doesn't make the blue pearl a higher grade, and it doesn't mean that the cherry shrimp shouldn't be graded. 



> In my opinion, and I realize that is it just that, an opinion, a descriptive name plus a picture of the animal is more than sufficient.


Not every picture accurately reflects the quality or color of the shrimp. How many times have you heard sellers say, "the pictures do not do them justice"? It's a lot easier to make a grading system for the shrimp than it is to figure out whether or not the camera makes the shrimp look better than they are.


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## wetworks (Jul 22, 2011)

Fishly has some very good points here, especially regarding individual opinion. Everyone likes different stuff, otherwise we would all be keeping just goldfish. And the variety of things out there to keep in the hobby that have been 'discovered' since I set up my first tank in 1989 makes sure that each person will find plenty of really cool stuff that is exactly to their taste, whatever that particular taste may be. And, to be honest, your comment/explanation of the grading system is probably the best so far. I am not against grading, nor do I have an issue with selective breeding for the hobby to produce these grades. My big concern is that the whole issue is very subjective, and this could (and does) lead to confusion. This is why I am in favor of perhaps turning the grading system from a nominal one to a descriptive one (ie; from all white being highest, all red being lowest and everything else being between these two extremes). I just want the grades to have an actual meaning rather than an abstraction. 

One area that I do disagree with you in is that the grading system is money motivated. If you buy a high-grade baseball card or comic book, you pay a premium price for that item, and this makes sense to me as far as the relative rareness and desirability of a particular specimen. In this case, perhaps standards are not such a bad thing, just so long as they are clearly defined and _*truly standard*_. The price is not really the issue here. Since these shrimps are relatively easy to keep and breed (you pretty much get your starter shrimps, then build a self-sustaining colony), I think that to at least some degree new varieties of shrimps and splitting up the individual types into grades is a way to keep is a means to market a new(er) product to those who already have breeding colonies established. Not that I think that this is necessarily bad, because it gives all of us from Aquarists Anonymous a perfectly good rationalization to buy more tanks in order to accommodate our individual opinions and interests. 

On a related note, most breeders and importers of shrimps (and most forums as well) strongly discourage interbreeding of the varieties of, for example, Caridina sp. The stated reason for this is to keep the strains relatively pure and true-breeding. My issue with this is that if these folks took their own advice then NONE of the cool strains we currently have in the hobby would exist in the forms that we know them as. I think that this is a way for breeders and importers to control as much of the population as possible. Why not encourage cross-breeding across all levels of this hobby to keep things fresh with new varieties? 

These are just my personal observations. I joined this forum specifically so I could have conversations such as this with like-minded individuals. I always welcome the opportunity to see something in a different way, and I am smart enough to know that I do not know everything, so please feel free to respond to this post and educate me. From just the posts on this thread so far I have read some great opinions from hobbyists that were both pro and con on the grading issues. I am very interested to see where this conversation will lead.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

I think cross-breeding done by amateur aquarists with one or two tanks is just going to result in a lot of ugly hybrids, not the beautiful variants we see on the market today.


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## 10gallonplanted (Oct 31, 2010)

Have you ever seen the soooo many variations in a cherry shrimp colony? It would be a pain to have to be like okay this one has a few stripes and it's got certain coloration so its this grade and then go on to the next shrimp. I think it's easier to go with the grading system we have now.


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## gordonrichards (Jun 20, 2009)

Grading on CRS:
C,B,A,S,SSS
-Other variants/names are applied for the designs which can add value.

Grading on Neo reds:
Cherry, Sakura, Taiwan Fire Red 
-Value is added for shrimp that are more solid in coloring.

No matter what a shrimp is a shrimp. The coloring doesn't add value, its the genetics behind it. It takes a few generations to have a final line available for sale that breeds true. Even then, after a few generations you have to improve the line which is expensive.

I'm very doubtful there will be any new grading systems created.
Everyone that I know is happy enough using the ones currently available.

-Gordon


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## wetworks (Jul 22, 2011)

gordonrichards said:


> _*No matter what a shrimp is a shrimp*_. The coloring doesn't add value, its the genetics behind it. It takes a few generations to have a final line available for sale that breeds true. Even then, after a few generations you have to improve the line which is expensive.


I cannot agree with you more. I tend to purchase what I like, regardless of either cost or popularity. This includes spending an appropriate amount for a particular strain which a breeder spent a lot of time and money to develop for the hobby. The biggest problem with the current grading is that it is subjective and I probably do not properly understand it because I do not really know what a "No-entry SS+ shrimp actually looks like outside of what the breeders, importers and sellers of shrimps say it does. If someone could post the address of a website that has a shrimp grading guide, or even a few, I would greatly appreciate it. (Especially if the website is for information purposes or a forum, with photos) But, at the end of the day a shrimp is indeed just a shrimp.


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## jasonpatterson (Apr 15, 2011)

Fishly said:


> I disagree. The purpose of the grading system is to set standards to help people achieve breeding goals. If one person is breeding for Trait 1, another for Trait 2, and another for Trait 3, each will make progress at a varying rate. However, if all three of them are breeding for Trait 4, the focused effort will lead to a faster rate of progress. In this case, standard = group goal.


What is the standard? These aren't ideals that people are trying to breed toward, they are animals that have already been bred and then released for sale. It's entirely possible for someone with grade C shrimp to start trying to breed higher grades, but those higher grades didn't exist until someone invented them. I'd agree with this if it were something like a chicken, where there is a published standard, but in the case of these shrimp it's just someone saying, "Hey look, this shrimp has more white than that other shrimp, let's call it a new grade!"



> Now, having a set standard doesn't mean that that standard is the best or that everyone should like it. It means that a large group of people have agreed on a goal ...


Agreed that a standard of the variety you're talking about doesn't equal actual superiority. Again, what goal did they agree to?



> Shrimp aren't graded for the purpose of making them popular. They're graded based on how close they come to the breeder's ideal. The matter of popularity is simply a result of having something that appeals to a lot of people.


This may be the case in the ideal. The practical result of a grading system is that the higher grades are assumed to be superior. New hobbyists assume that grade SSS is inherently better than grade B, and that's problematic in my mind.



> For example: Do those that breed black labs think they are better than yellow labs? Maybe. Does that mean they really are? No. Does thinking black is better or worse than yellow mean that they are being elitist? No, it means they have an opinion.


Opinions and elitism aren't mutually exclusive. Not disagreeing with your example, only your conclusion. 

I personally don't object to the idea of a grading system on its own merits, and if there were some breeding standard published, I could see interested parties trying to breed toward it, but I don't believe that that is the case with CRS in particular. Does anyone genuinely believe that someone sat down and said, "You know, this shrimp would look really good if it were all white with a sort of crown shaped red blotch on its head. I'm going to get ahold of the other breeders so that we can work to achieve this goal!"? Of course not, someone noticed a particular animal with a particular pattern and realized it was salable. They may also have enjoyed the appearance of it, to be sure, but the fact that they could sell a shrimp for hundreds of dollars instead of tens had to have had an impact on their decisions.

This doesn't mean that the grading system is inherently bad either; someone trying to make a buck doesn't mean that anything is wrong with it. My objection is primarily the affect that a grading system of this type has on new hobbyists. Maybe I'm trying to protect people from themselves a bit too much, but it drives me up the wall when I read a post on here by someone who bought some B grade shrimp at the fish store and now thinks that they are garbage because they figured out that they were low grade CRS.

And yes, I realize that the vast majority of what I've written is opinion.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

It is confusing but I think too many people get caught up in it when in reality, they just wanted some shrimp for their tank. If you want some shrimp, get some shrimp, who cares about the grades. I have one crystal who is a nice almost all red with thin solid white stripes. I think it looks awesome and so different than the others, and while it may not be a perfect grade, I like it, so it stays. I also have some no-entry hinos, and everything in between. I got the little bit higher grade just to add to my gene pool and whatever comes out between my reds and blacks is what it is. I'm not going to cull any lower grades, I just like shrimp.

There is always going to elitists in no matter what you do. I used to have a Cane Corso dog (Italian Mastiff) and he was the best dog ever, and I was at the dog park with him and someone saw him and said, wow, an almost perfect specimen of the breed, except for the white patch he had, too bad they said and walked away. A little tiny white patch and my dog went from super stud to dud because of someones opinion. I play guitar and elitists are always you have to have this brand guitar and amp, or you'll never get a good sound. I play PC games, people tell me I HAVE to have this video or this certain type of memory or my PC isn't good enough. The list goes on and on, especially on the internet.

Go with what you like and don't let anyone sway you. Granted, if you are breeding shrimp for profit, then yes, you're going to want the most bang for you buck. If you have the money and effort into a tank and you can get 2 dollars a piece for offspring, or 30 dollars a piece, you want to go for the 30 dollars a piece, but in reality most of us here like having shrimp in our tanks, have many different kinds of shrimp and should just enjoy what they have.


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## Senior Shrimpo (Dec 4, 2010)

Few thoughts:



jasonpatterson said:


> This may be the case in the ideal. The practical result of a grading system is that the higher grades are assumed to be superior. New hobbyists assume that grade SSS is inherently better than grade B, and that's problematic in my mind.


They assume this in the same way a person assumes a pure bred is better than a mutt. Now I've had many mutts and one purebred, and I loved all of them, and I have to say the purebred made no difference in the actual dog. Purebreds actually have more problems due to a smaller gene pool (like shrimp). My purebred bulldog slobbered and was lazy and she wasn't a great guard dog, and she wasn't any better than a mutt. But because she had the nametag, people saw the dog, knew I paid extra for her (actually I didn't, I knew a guy, but oh well) and thought she must be better than a mutt.

My point being, an SSS isn't inherently better in any way to a grade B, except in looks and popularity. SSS shrimp are a lot more sensitive to parameters anyway. But there will always be people who want to collect the nicest shrimp, maybe to sell them for a nice profit, and this market indulges them. 



wetworks said:


> On a related note, most breeders and importers of shrimps (and most forums as well) strongly discourage interbreeding of the varieties of, for example, Caridina sp. The stated reason for this is to keep the strains relatively pure and true-breeding. My issue with this is that if these folks took their own advice then NONE of the cool strains we currently have in the hobby would exist in the forms that we know them as. I think that this is a way for breeders and importers to control as much of the population as possible. Why not encourage cross-breeding across all levels of this hobby to keep things fresh with new varieties?


Well, to a hobbyist that is just starting out, they probably want their shrimp to have shrimp babies and to have a colony of shrimp. It's only fair to warn them that keeping X and Y shrimp is going to result in brown, ugly shrimp most of the time. That's why most hobbyists shy away from interbreeding, and leave it to the big timers with 30 tanks, not just 2 or 3, who can take the time and effort necessary to develop a new variety of shrimp.




GeToChKn said:


> It is confusing but I think too many people get caught up in it when in reality, they just wanted some shrimp for their tank. If you want some shrimp, get some shrimp, who cares about the grades. I have one crystal who is a nice almost all red with thin solid white stripes. I think it looks awesome and so different than the others, and while it may not be a perfect grade, I like it, so it stays. I also have some no-entry hinos, and everything in between. I got the little bit higher grade just to add to my gene pool and whatever comes out between my reds and blacks is what it is. I'm not going to cull any lower grades, I just like shrimp.
> 
> There is always going to elitists in no matter what you do. I used to have a Cane Corso dog (Italian Mastiff) and he was the best dog ever, and I was at the dog park with him and someone saw him and said, wow, an almost perfect specimen of the breed, except for the white patch he had, too bad they said and walked away. A little tiny white patch and my dog went from super stud to dud because of someones opinion. I play guitar and elitists are always you have to have this brand guitar and amp, or you'll never get a good sound. I play PC games, people tell me I HAVE to have this video or this certain type of memory or my PC isn't good enough. The list goes on and on, especially on the internet.


^^This is very good advice. People used to tell me that my purebred bulldog had the look of an untrained "bully", and that I should be very happy with her. I didn't know what that meant, so I googled it, and I was disgusted... just google "bully pit bull". The buffest dogs are bred and supplemented and worked out to be unnaturally huge... why would that be what the breed ideal is? It was gross, and my dog looked a little like that from natural bulk, but I wouldn't want her to be more like it. Just go with what you like in a dog, or shrimp, and don't let the breed ideals sway you. It's different if you're selling the animals because the breed ideal is always going to go for more money.

I just want to say, I don't like this us vs. them mentality. *We* are the shrimp breeders here! Sure, it's a market motivated by money, (I'd like to find a market that isn't) and sure the standards can be a little weird. But overall it's a very cool hobby. I don't think the grading system needs much revision, because it's mostly hobbyist to hobbyist, and a fair seller should tell the buyer what he or she is getting beforehand. 

Also, the breeders who [strike]created[/strike] [strike]constructed[/strike] [strike]manufactured[/strike] bred these shrimp reserve the right to name them. As weird as it sounds, they own the copyrights to the shrimp in terms of something or other, and that includes the name.

Getochkn, I googled cane corso and awwwww. Haha


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## redfalconf35 (Feb 24, 2008)

GeToChKn said:


> Go with what you like and don't let anyone sway you. Granted, if you are breeding shrimp for profit, then yes, you're going to want the most bang for you buck. If you have the money and effort into a tank and you can get 2 dollars a piece for offspring, or 30 dollars a piece, you want to go for the 30 dollars a piece, but in reality most of us here like having shrimp in our tanks, have many different kinds of shrimp and should just enjoy what they have.


Bingo! I like C,B,A grade CRS, personally... I really don't care for the SSS+ shrimp... it's like having a computer with all the lights and the liquid cooling and stuff, it's just for show, and if you break it (or kill it in the case of the shrimp), then you're out a ton of money.

If i wanted to make money off breeding CRS, i'm sure that i would be more interested in grading, but I'd be cool making enough money selling shrimp to buy them food and pay the electric bill.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

I think the thing that makes SSS shrimp appealing is their relative rarity and novelty. Once you have had S grade CRS for a while, you want something new to look at. Then SSS then seems to look better and better.


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## RandomMan (May 31, 2011)

Do you want a red shrimp, a white shrimp, or a nice candy cane shrimp? I personally prefer a whiter shrimp.


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## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

We seem to be getting a little off-topic here. We went from "potential new grading system" to "why I don't like the current grading system" to "why it's bad to assume that something is the best just because others say so."



jasonpatterson said:


> What is the standard?


The standard and agreed-upon goal is the goal that the original Asian breeders set for themselves, (more white = higher grade) which we have adopted. If we want to pursue a different goal, that's fine. But as long as our goal is the same as theirs, our standard will be the same as well (unless we change it, which we haven't done yet). By "standard" I mean "grading system," which in turn means "measuring stick." That is, you can take a shrimp, compare it to the *standard/grading system*, and see how close it is to the *goal*. Goal = what you want; standard/grading system = means of determining how close you are to the goal.



jasonpatterson said:


> It's entirely possible for someone with grade C shrimp to start trying to breed higher grades, but those higher grades didn't exist until someone invented them. I'd agree with this if it were something like a chicken, where there is a published standard...


A standard doesn't have to be published for it to exist. These shrimp are foreign, and just because we didn't come up with the standard doesn't mean that the standard doesn't exist or that it is subjective. 



jasonpatterson said:


> ...but in the case of these shrimp it's just someone saying, "Hey look, this shrimp has more white than that other shrimp, let's call it a new grade!"


What's wrong with that? That's how all grading systems start out. As the system develops, people become more specific about what it takes to get to each grade- in which case, it's more like, "this shrimp has _% white, so it's grade A, but this shrimp has _% white, so it's grade B," which is a perfectly acceptable grading system.


Note: The colors of the shrimp which we are discussing are not simple dominant/recessive traits. Their color is caused by what is called accumulation. Accumulative genes work by small expression building up to greater expression over several generations (little red + little red = little more red), so if you breed a light fire red shrimp to a light fire red shrimp, you will get a darker shrimp. However, that darker shrimp won't be as dark as if you had bred a dark fire shrimp to another dark fire shrimp. Because of this, each step forward takes a lot of work, so when something new develops, it gets acknowledged in the grading system, even if it seems to be a minor improvement. Because it requires such small steps to achieve any goal with shrimp breeding, I believe a grading system with fine distinctions between grades would be the most useful.



RandomMan said:


> Do you want a red shrimp, a white shrimp, or a nice candy cane shrimp? I personally prefer a whiter shrimp.


I agree that people should pursue their own preferences. I believe that a grading system with their preference set as the goal is the way to go. If you prefer all-red crystal shrimp, the grading system we have now would be useless to you, but if you were to create a new grading system with red shrimp as the highest grade, it would be very useful for you.

Which brings us back to the original topic: Knowing the problems with the grading systems we have now, how should we create new grading systems for new varieties of shrimp?


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## mixedinverttank (Jul 18, 2011)

Wow. that was great. Im down with starting that system


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## johnny313 (Apr 15, 2011)

ANY grading system is for people to make more money! the higher the grade, the more money people make... bottom line


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

johnny313 said:


> ANY grading system is for people to make more money! the higher the grade, the more money people make... bottom line


But is that bad? Some people want to buy only high quality of a species, and grading them would do that.


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## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

johnny313 said:


> ANY grading system is for people to make more money! the higher the grade, the more money people make... bottom line


Let's look at this logically:

*Scenario 1:*
I like shrimp, so I breed shrimp. I notice that some of my shrimp have more white than others, and I want to know if I can eventually make them entirely white. So I breed the shrimp with the most white for several generations. I find out that other breeders have also had this idea, and we form a group working to breed for white shrimp. 

My shrimp are getting a little weak from all the inbreeding, so I want to get shrimp from someone else for an outcross. But I don't want to undo all the work I've done on my shrimp already, so I want to make sure that the new shrimp have as much white as possible. Other breeders are having the same problem, so we decide to grade our shrimp. The shrimp with the most white will be the highest grade. It turns out that I have the whitest shrimp! Everyone wants to buy them, and soon I won't be the only one with the whitest shrimp, so I charge a high price while my shrimp are still valuable. Not everyone likes the white shrimp, but the people in my group do, so they don't mind spending the extra money. 

*Scenario 2:*
I like shrimp, so I breed shrimp. I've noticed that some shrimp have more white than others, so I tell every shrimp breeder I can find that the white ones are the most valuable and the rest are worthless. I invent a grading system, and I use it to present my shrimp as the best shrimp in the world, allowing me to sell them for a high price. People will pay anything to get bragging rights about their shrimp, whether they like white shrimp or not.


Which of those two scenarios seems more likely? How could people invent a grading system just to make money when there was already a grading system in place, developed by breeders who genuinely wanted to breed white shrimp for their own pleasure?


I would like to remind everyone here that we're trying to figure out how to make new grading systems for all the new shrimp that are being developed right now. You can complain all you want about the old grading system, but unless you suggest something new, the old system will remain.


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## Yamaz (May 13, 2011)

I found this online...makes it a bit more clear for RCS shrimps...although its only the authors opinion...

http://www.aquaticquotient.com/foru...-Grading-system-of-Cherry-to-Fire-Red-Shrimps


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