# New to CRS ---shrimps dying every day one after another.



## Clare12345 (Dec 20, 2008)

Are you adding prime to new water?


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Boy, I hate it when this happens!

Make sure your filter intake is covered so shrimp cannot get sucked against it. I don't care how small the slots are, you need a sponge or pantyhose on it!

Are you overdosing excel? Have you added any new shrimp recently? Is there driftwood in the tank?


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## plamski (Sep 25, 2009)

Clare12345 said:


> Are you adding prime to new water?


Water change is 20% every week,RO+ equilibrium+old sea mud.
My RO unit supposes to be very good.TDS meter shows 0 on exit side.
No prime in use.


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## plamski (Sep 25, 2009)

mordalphus said:


> Boy, I hate it when this happens!
> 
> Make sure your filter intake is covered so shrimp cannot get sucked against it. I don't care how small the slots are, you need a sponge or pantyhose on it!
> 
> Are you overdosing excel? Have you added any new shrimp recently? Is there driftwood in the tank?


 Intake is covered with sponge.Excel 1x week 1/4 of required amount.No New shrimps, no drift wood.


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## plamski (Sep 25, 2009)

I have 3 tanks with the same setups and parameters. Shrimps are from 3 different sellers. Shrimps from different sellers are in different tanks.
I have similar mortality rate for all 3 tanks.
I started with 20 Shrimps in each tank now they are 3,4 and 7 left. Those 7 were bigger in size and lower in grades.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Yikes! Hard to tell what a wipeout is all about. Happens quite often in new setups though. A lot of the time, a huge wipeout is from bacterial infection... But if it's in all 3 tanks, and they're all from separate breeders, that would be unlikely.

I'd have to say it's something in your water or substrate.

Are you using aquasoil? if so, test water from just above the aquasoil surface to see if it's still leeching ammonia.

If not, try using distilled or reverse osmosis water and do large water changes every day.


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

"Can this be aluminum poisoning? I have DIY aluminum chiller. "

I'm placing my bets on this...


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

ahh yeah, totally missed that.

acid + aluminum = death

especially for invertebrates, but also for most fish.


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## DBL TAP (Apr 27, 2008)

Did you buy your shrimp from a breeder or from a fish store?


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## plamski (Sep 25, 2009)

I bought them from breeders. After water change the shrimps get more active for 1 or 2 days. It looks to me like poisoning too. I’m thinking to use paraGuard and Melafix to try for bacteria. If I decide to setup everything from zero do I have to throw away all sponges, bio filters, plants etc? What is the best substrate for CRS?


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## justin182 (Aug 19, 2009)

sorry to hear that, I have exactly the same problem 8 months ago and all my shrimps died eventually... haven't figured out the reason/reasons yet! Hope that you could.

ADA Aquasoil is a good because it helps lower your GH and KH. It also keeps your water at slightly acidic, which is good for CRS.


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

CO2 injection _without_ a pH controller on _very low_ KH water is highly suspect, too. You may be accumulating sub-lethal levels in the middle of the night that are eventually stressing the shrimp to die, or depleting oxygen at night. Or even just stressing the shrimp from pH swings. (When the lights go off, plants switch metabolism and start to _consume_ oxygen, so it's a double whammy after dark.) You would need to take readings for a full 24 hour cycle every couple of hours to determine this (pH).

DK


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## plamski (Sep 25, 2009)

greenisgood said:


> CO2 injection _without_ a pH controller on _very low_ KH water is highly suspect, too. You may be accumulating sub-lethal levels in the middle of the night that are eventually stressing the shrimp to die, or depleting oxygen at night. Or even just stressing the shrimp from pH swings. (When the lights go off, plants switch metabolism and start to _consume_ oxygen, so it's a double whammy after dark.) You would need to take readings for a full 24 hour cycle every couple of hours to determine this (pH).
> 
> DK


OK.Is it better to use Aquasoil with RO and to STOP CO2?
If there is other way I'd like to know how to do it.
Thanks to all for your help and suggestions.
Fight will continue forever.


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

Be methodical, and don't change too many variables at once.

The FIRST thing to do is to pull pH tests every two hours for a day. Set a timer and get the data you need. If you can't quite pull the all-nighter, then at least stay up fairly late and get the trend, say until midnight or however long you can stand to stay up. If you see a trend in the pH that it is changing in the after-light hours, then you can reasonably assume the trend continues until the lights come back on. Get up as early the next day as you can tolerate, and test, hopefully before the lights go on and then for a few tests after the lights have been on, to see if the trend reverses.

Take a look at the data, and see if it tells you anything. Don't change anything else until you do this testing step.

DIY CO2 may or may not be a culprit. You need the data to indicate which. Don't guess, get data.

DK


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## plamski (Sep 25, 2009)

greenisgood said:


> Be methodical, and don't change too many variables at once.
> 
> The FIRST thing to do is to pull pH tests every two hours for a day. Set a timer and get the data you need. If you can't quite pull the all-nighter, then at least stay up fairly late and get the trend, say until midnight or however long you can stand to stay up. If you see a trend in the pH that it is changing in the after-light hours, then you can reasonably assume the trend continues until the lights come back on. Get up as early the next day as you can tolerate, and test, hopefully before the lights go on and then for a few tests after the lights have been on, to see if the trend reverses.
> 
> ...


 Do you thing that PH test from API master test kit is good enought or I have to buy digital tester?Which one if I have to?


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## plamski (Sep 25, 2009)

I have to buy chiller probably too.Which one is a good one? 1/10 or 1/4.My plan was to buy it next year but...


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

If it's not massively expired past its expiration date, the API pH drops test should be just fine. Look for CHANGE over time.

I don't have any experience with chillers; personally if I had to chill a tank I'd use a dorm fridge, a length of tubing, a plastic bucket of mineral oil, a powerhead, and something like a reptitemp 500R. (You'd need a drill with a hole saw and a tube of silicone caulk, too.) The problem with chillers is they break and then you have to fork over ANOTHER xxx hundred dollars to buy a new one. With a DIY setup, any of the components can be replaced easily at a fraction of that cost, although the setup does take up more space. Pretty much the only thing I don't support DIY is a pH controller, CO2 tank, and regulator. Oh, and making one's own tanks if they're larger than 10 gallons, or removing rims on tanks.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

For the same price as a DIY cooler, you can buy a 1/10 hp or 1/14 hp which will function much better. The problem with DIY coolers, especially those using a dorm fridge or mini fridge, is that frigerators are built to have their compressors on for small lengths of time, and rely on the insulation in the walls of the fridge to keep the cold in. When they have to work constantly (or turning on/off by thermostat), they wear out incredibly fast. Me and a few others here in Seattle tried this last year during a heat wave (which was wiping out my shrimp really fast), and we each ended up buying and returning 2 mini fridges because they burned out in 2 months (my buddies fridge broke in 3 weeks, but his was under a cabinet and almost caught his house on fire). In the end, I ended up finding a way easier and cheaper way of cooling my tanks, and that's with fans. You can drop the water temp between 10-20 degrees Fahrenheit depending on how fast the fan is blowing. Even with a 1/10th horsepower water cooler you're only going to drop the temp maybe 10-15 degrees on ONE 20 gallon tank! Not to mention you need a pump with a minimum GPH that is ridiculous for a 20g. (Do not hook up to your canister filter, it will burn out your filter really fast)

In malaysia, thailand, and vietnam, not many hobbyists will pay 300 dollars for a cooler, so they all use fans... Azoo makes a fan rack, I just use a tower fan flipped onto its side, or squirrel cage fan.

I was going to say, if your pH is acidic and your water is passing over aluminum, it _WILL_ contaminate your water. Aluminum + acid is deadly to invertebrates.

Here are some pictures of my cooling setup:


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## plamski (Sep 25, 2009)

greenisgood said:


> If it's not massively expired past its expiration date, the API pH drops test should be just fine. Look for CHANGE over time.
> 
> I don't have any experience with chillers; personally if I had to chill a tank I'd use a dorm fridge, a length of tubing, a plastic bucket of mineral oil, a powerhead, and something like a reptitemp 500R. (You'd need a drill with a hole saw and a tube of silicone caulk, too.) The problem with chillers is they break and then you have to fork over ANOTHER xxx hundred dollars to buy a new one. With a DIY setup, any of the components can be replaced easily at a fraction of that cost, although the setup does take up more space. Pretty much the only thing I don't support DIY is a pH controller, CO2 tank, and regulator. Oh, and making one's own tanks if they're larger than 10 gallons, or removing rims on tanks.


I did search a lot for good chiller but there are always very bad reviews. Especially with customer support. I can't afford 5 days without cooling. Here temperature is 85-95 24/7 for 4 months.
For DIY you mean Freezer or refrigerator? What do I need mineral oil for? I thing to put one 10 gal tank in to refrigerator and to run water from aquariums thru this 10 gal tank .Is this temperature controller will turn off the fridge or pump?


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

Mordalphus,

Why will hooking up a chiller to a canister filter burn it out?


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

You let the fridge run like a normal fridge. Use a bucket of mineral oil, submerse the coils of tubing. Bucket lives in the fridge. Oil doesn't go bad, has higher heat capacity than air. (Water would turn to bio-slime eventually - Google Marvin Zindler "slime in the ice machine" - ha!) Use the temperature controller on the powerhead - only circulates water when the temp calls for it. Temperature controller probe goes in the tank. Filtration is independent of the cooling system. I think I'd merge the chilled water output into the filter output to mix it, though. (This is admittedly purely conceptual thinking - you'd have to look at the BTUs of the fridge and your delta temp and gallons of water to see if the physics would work, but hey it's fun to think about...)

The only experience I have with a chiller wasn't my chiller, but the $600 thing died after a season, and when it died the manufacturer said ship it (like 40 lbs worth of appliance) back for service. (Of course, there's nobody local who has a clue about the thing, let alone parts...) What are you supposed to do, with a tank dying in the meantime? Even if you order a new one and have it overnighted, the tank is dead by then. (Murphy dictates the chiller will die on the hottest day of the year, of course.) I want something I can run to BORG and fix, and have my own (read: _non-proprietary_) backup components on hand. But that's just me.

It might be cheaper in the long run to buy a window air conditioner unit and just keep the room at temps within range. The a/c unit is designed to do this. Not sure how the power consumption of the window a/c unit would compare to the DIY cooler (a.k.a. dorm fridge wattage). Fans work pretty well to cool a tank, but there is a law of diminishing returns if the atmosphere is too humid and getting more humid as you use evaporative cooling. You also have to factor in if you are using central air in a whole house, you are adding a lot of humidity to the house, driving up the central house cooling power consumption.


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## plamski (Sep 25, 2009)

My tanks are outside on the patio. I closed the patio screaming with 2" Styrofoam panels and drywall. I have portable air conditioner to keep patio temperature 73-76F BUT... Tanks temperature is 77-79. Lights are almost no heating factor 6" from the top glass cover single 24W T5. The air conditioner is blowing strong enough to move air around tanks and lights. Probably filters are creating heat.
What about fridge with 300 feet of air pump hose and to cool tanks by the air sponge filter???


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

if you have central cooling, you prolly don't need a chiller..

And I keep tons of shrimp tanks using only fans to cool, even in 100+ weather (which we had this year in seattle amazingly enough)

And hooking a chiller up to your canister filter will burn it out because the water travels through a maze of tubing that is very long, but condensed into a small box, and pushing water through all of those small turns is very hard on a canister filter, which in addition to pushing it through the coils of the chiller, also has to pull the water through the filter.

In theory the fridge method should work, but in application it doesn't. It ends up turning the compressor on and off too much. It would probably be different in a full sized fridge or chest freezer, but I found that fans work much more efficiently. Topping off a gallon in each tank every day is a pain in the butt, but it's much better than spending thousands on chillers and/or fridges for each tank.


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## plamski (Sep 25, 2009)

P.S. Don’t ask for power consumation.FPL /Florida electric company/ send me a personal letter with 8 advices how to save electricity.:hihi:


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## xJaypex (Jul 4, 2009)

Are you sure your tank is even cycled? You should be reading nitrates.


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## plamski (Sep 25, 2009)

Who knows? It has been running for 30 -35 days ,on second week I put 5-8 cherrys in each tank to help with cycling. There are no dead RCS .


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Are you using aquasoil?

Nevermind, I see that turface.



An uncycled tank would definitely kill CRS. They're the most sensitive shrimp when it comes to ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.


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## xJaypex (Jul 4, 2009)

As fas as i know you tank is not fuly cycled until you start reading nitrates. At low levels of course


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## defiant (Dec 1, 2009)

sorry to thread jack but i saw a comment on here with concerns to drift wood? is there a problem with keeping crs in a tank scaped with drift wood?


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

defiant said:


> sorry to thread jack but i saw a comment on here with concerns to drift wood? is there a problem with keeping crs in a tank scaped with drift wood?


My concern with the driftwood was that mopani driftwood sometimes grows a huge bacterial colony, and sometimes a fungal colony as well. That's all.


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## defiant (Dec 1, 2009)

ahhh great i was getting worried that my drift wood will cause a problem for my shrimps coming in. 

will the tanins that are leaching out cause a problem for their health also?


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

nope, tannic acid is just dandy with them... They come from woody streams that are full of tannins in the fall.


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## defiant (Dec 1, 2009)

awesome.....thanks shrimp pimp:smile:


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

plamski said:


> My tanks are outside on the patio. I closed the patio screaming with 2" Styrofoam panels and drywall. I have portable air conditioner to keep patio temperature 73-76F BUT... Tanks temperature is 77-79. Lights are almost no heating factor 6" from the top glass cover single 24W T5. The air conditioner is blowing strong enough to move air around tanks and lights. Probably filters are creating heat.
> What about fridge with 300 feet of air pump hose and to cool tanks by the air sponge filter???


Sorry about the delay - my computer keeps crashing and I'm on the market for a new one.

If you are cooling the room to 73-76 24/7, then first look at where that extra heat in the tank is coming from to make it 77-79. You are very close to good temps as it is, except for BTs. But crystals can take these temps. For your set of circumstances, I'd say a fan or two directly over the tank is the most efficient solution because you only need a few degrees drop. You're also not worried about pumping the larger house full of humidity, to cool. A second thought is cooling fans on your lights, to drive the light heat upwards or lateral, away from the tank. I use 80 mm computer fans and a 12 V DC power source. Ebay is my friend.

Using chilled air in tubing is inefficient because air has low heat capacity. I'd opt rather to pump tank water out of the tank, through the cooling coils in the mineral oil, and back into the filter output (to mix water and not have a cold jet stream into the tank). But again, this is probably overkill for a few degrees. 

DK


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## plamski (Sep 25, 2009)

greenisgood said:


> Sorry about the delay - my computer keeps crashing and I'm on the market for a new one.
> 
> If you are cooling the room to 73-76 24/7, then first look at where that extra heat in the tank is coming from to make it 77-79. You are very close to good temps as it is, except for BTs. But crystals can take these temps. For your set of circumstances, I'd say a fan or two directly over the tank is the most efficient solution because you only need a few degrees drop. You're also not worried about pumping the larger house full of humidity, to cool. A second thought is cooling fans on your lights, to drive the light heat upwards or lateral, away from the tank. I use 80 mm computer fans and a 12 V DC power source. Ebay is my friend.
> 
> ...


 I moved all shrimps /total 5 left/from my 2 "bad" tanks to the third one with lower mortality rate. Removed DIY cooling and substitute it with 3x60mm 12V fans. Temp after one day is 71.8F.Did 30% water change with RO + Mosura GH buster + prime+ bio plus. I did 10 measurements for PH in all 3 tanks the difference is from 6.8 to 6.4 in one tank and from 6.4 to 6.8 in other two tanks. In first one there are 2x more plants.
The idea with fans is brilliant. It will save me a lot of$$$.I'm not sure how shrimps will accept one more water movement source .
I'm waiting for Aquasoil I , green bacter and bacter 100.I read that it is possibly to cycle tank with ADA Amazonia I for 11 days.
:icon_roll.Will see.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Good to hear everything is working out for you! Be careful, because even though you can cycle a tank with aquasoil, the aquasoil continues to make ammonia, so you have to wait for the ammonia to stop leeching from the aquasoil... Doesn't matter if the tank is cycled, if the aquasoil is still pushing ammonia into your tank.


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## dhavoc (May 4, 2006)

i'd wait a min 1 month at least if your starting a tank with AS1 from scratch. i could still measure ammonia 4-5 weeks after setup. stuff the tank with fast growers as well, they provide surface area for bacteria and use up nutrients in the water column as well.


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