# plz help: a whole group of neon tetra are hiding-pictures added



## micheal (Oct 7, 2010)

Hi all,
I has a a group of 40 neon tetras in 125 gal tank. They are keep hiding under driftwood covering with trident fern , sometime they come out but rarely. It never happened before, just recently. I dont know what Ive done. Help me! :help:











There are more than 40 cardinal and neon tetras in there. But it looks like an empty tank with 2 gold angel fishes in there.


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## HeathBar (Aug 28, 2007)

Are there a larger tank mates that might be picking on them?


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## MRoss (Aug 17, 2011)

Assuming that the neons behave like cardinals, I've noticed that they fish will tend to stay at a water level which allows them to swim amongst other things in the tank, such as large batches of plants.

My school of about 30 cardinals in a 150 gallon tank swam around in the mid to upper layers of the tank until I did a major trimming of plants. They then stayed at the lower levels of the tank until the plants resumed their previous height.

Larger fish in tank may be an issue, but only if predatory. I have Congo tetras in the same tank without apparent problems.

FWIW,

Mike


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## micheal (Oct 7, 2010)

OH I forgot to mention that my school is mixed (85% is cardinal and rest is neon)(thought they are same  just noticed).I also has 2 medium-large angles and thats all. Angles been in my tank about six months and tetras is 3 months now. Like I said they just behaved like that recently (It has been a week now). I dont think bully is the problem here (no chasing). Is there something that I can put under driftwood to scare them out or ... I dont know.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Could you post up a picture of your tank?

Keep in mind there's a good chance the angels may be eating them, if the angels are big enough.


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## Abrium (Jan 7, 2011)

Won't an angel eventually get large enough to try and eat a tetra? I don't know but if there has been a shift in the tank with the angels the tetras may feel threatened. I don't know because I have never really kept angels.


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## [email protected] (Jul 17, 2008)

In a store, I once put 500 neons in a heavily planted 55. They all but disappeared. We never saw more than a couple of dozen at a time. We sold neons out of that tank for weeks and weeks.


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## nalu86 (Oct 19, 2010)

add a background!!


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

Have you adjusted the CO2 lately? That would affect their behavior if it is a bit too high.

Betting it is the angels, they can eat fish a lot larger than you think they can and your tetras may be smart enough to stay out of the way.


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## micheal (Oct 7, 2010)

I have adjusted the co2 a bit higher recently b/c Cladophora algae keep growing (there is one in the second pic).


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## devlyyn (Dec 7, 2007)

My vote is that they (for whatever reason) got spooked by the angels. When I first added my much larger black skirt tetras, my neons hid for a day or two until they realized the other fish were no threat. Since you only have 2 angels, is there somewhere else you could temporarily rehouse them to see if that helps?


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## Fahnell (Jan 20, 2011)

come on. angels and neons? 
take out the cichlids for 1 week and you will see the neons next to the front glass begging for food


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## Plant keeper (Jan 27, 2011)

Neons= food for angelfish...


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## astrosag (Sep 3, 2010)

Yea, I think its pretty obvious its the Angel Fish. 

Like Fahnell stated, angel fish are cichlids = big time eaters - they will annihilate that neon population.

Unfortunately, you put two incompatible fish together my friend. If its not a problem now, its likely to be in the future.

You may have had the angels and neons in there for 3 months but it is entirely possible that the angels, which have grown since that time, started seeing the neons as food just recently.

Also your tank scape looks awesome. I like it. However, I would put a background on that tank - black or blue painted. Those curtains and blinds really don't do the scape a favor


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## zergling (May 16, 2007)

Another vote here for the angels. I've personally seen an angel swallow a neon when I was a young kid!


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## micheal (Oct 7, 2010)

Alright so all come to one solution that both angle fishes must go. I will trade them in with some cardinals in LFS. I just bought a backgound and it's on the way. 

TY guys.


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## firefiend (Sep 3, 2009)

micheal said:


> Alright so all come to one solution that both angle fishes must go. I will trade them in with some cardinals in LFS. I just bought a backgound and it's on the way.
> 
> TY guys.



I would get rid of the neons, personally. Not a fan of them; but that's just me.


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## Fahnell (Jan 20, 2011)

you have big tank. 6 angels in that tank will form pairs and they will breed . 
and cardinals and neons are not that great toghether. neons are for 23-24C but cardinals are for 26-28C.


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## JasonG75 (Mar 1, 2011)

Fahnell said:


> come on. angels and neons?
> take out the cichlids for 1 week and you will see the neons next to the front glass begging for food


 
I have 3 ADULT Angels (marble) 10 Cardinals and 10 Rummies..they all swim amoungst themselves just FINE.


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## Fahnell (Jan 20, 2011)

at my workplace a guy has 1 tiger barb , 2 angles and guppies in 100 liters of water. and yes everything seems fine ....but this is only an exception
this can apply to your tank also. some get lucky ...some not. 
every aquarium is very very different. should i point that cichlids are fish with REAL personality and they can be very very different?
in this case only some experimentation can clear things up


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## MRoss (Aug 17, 2011)

JasonG75 said:


> I have 3 ADULT Angels (marble) 10 Cardinals and 10 Rummies..they all swim amoungst themselves just FINE.


"and lions will lie down with lambs...but you'll use up a lot of lambs." (Robert Heinlein, I think)

The rummynose will probably be big enough and fast enough to avoid being a meal, and if the tank is big enough even the cardinals might make it, but if the angels get as big as they are capable of, then IMO the cardinals will end up as lunch eventually. Keeping the angels well fed might help too, but I've seen too many neon and cardinal parts in tanks with angels and even discus to want to try it myself.

As someone else in this thread said, many fish have different personalities, so maybe you have some pacifists :smile:.

And the adult angels might not be full-sized. I've had specimens that were 4-5 inches in diameter in body size (not counting the fins) when kept in really large aquaria. Plenty big enough to eat a cardinal.

FWIW,

Mike


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## Fahnell (Jan 20, 2011)

as you know angles can be as big as 20-25 cm. in amazonia people eat them. also altums can get even bigger at 30-40 cm. what you see in aquariums are dwarfs because of the small space. angels ARE ambush predators that hide between roots (see their stair pattern..hence the name scalare). some parts of their menu....small characins for example
anyway. i will always but always favor species only tanks.in your case il will go either with 200 neons or a few pairs of angels


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## doncityz (May 17, 2011)

My guess would be they are scared of the angels. They are easily intimidated in my experience. All 8 of mine would scatter and lay low behind some plants even if i just use a white tissue to wipe the front glass. i leave them a while, then they came back out, but still ever so cautious. i only have 3 more danios in there, and they are not scared of the danios. but, i think bigger fish will scare the crap out of them.


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## MRoss (Aug 17, 2011)

Fahnell said:


> as you know angles can be as big as 20-25 cm. in amazonia people eat them. also altums can get even bigger at 30-40 cm. what you see in aquariums are dwarfs because of the small space. angels ARE ambush predators that hide between roots (see their stair pattern..hence the name scalare).


Actually, I DIDN'T know that. The biggest I've ever seen were perhaps 8 to 10 cm. I've never seen an Altum in person.

Mike


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## kingdave (Feb 20, 2010)

micheal said:


> Is there something that I can put under driftwood to scare them out or ... I dont know.


There are only two things I would suggest you put under the driftwood to scare them out: Angelfish #1 and Angelfish #2 :icon_bigg


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## shrimpNewbie (May 6, 2011)

Abrium said:


> Won't an angel eventually get large enough to try and eat a tetra? I don't know but if there has been a shift in the tank with the angels the tetras may feel threatened. I don't know because I have never really kept angels.


not in my experience


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## shrimpNewbie (May 6, 2011)

Fahnell said:


> as you know angles can be as big as 20-25 cm. in amazonia people eat them. also altums can get even bigger at 30-40 cm. what you see in aquariums are dwarfs because of the small space. angels ARE ambush predators that hide between roots (see their stair pattern..hence the name scalare). some parts of their menu....small characins for example
> anyway. i will always but always favor species only tanks.in your case il will go either with 200 neons or a few pairs of angels


altums get to about 6 inches long, height may differ and the space they are in aquariums doesn't affect them nearly as much as how fresh their water is or how well they are fed. Angels may be predators but they haven't preyed on my neons or even my smaller fish, keeping your fish well fed keeps them from being jack holes to their tank mates.


I might add I'm from brazil and mature altums taste good as sad as that is to say.

IMO you need a background and more plants, giving your fish more cover will make them more comfortable, they will feel safer venturing into your angel's territory because they have somewhere they can quickly retreat to, and from your photo that area seems to be the only place possible


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## shrimpNewbie (May 6, 2011)

Fahnell said:


> you have big tank. 6 angels in that tank will form pairs and they will breed .
> and cardinals and neons are not that great toghether. neons are for 23-24C but cardinals are for 26-28C.


tell this to the neons that bred in my 88 degree cichlid tank =p

though I still agree they are both comfortable in different conditions, they'll still coexist nicely


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## shrimpNewbie (May 6, 2011)

Fahnell said:


> at my workplace a guy has 1 tiger barb , 2 angles and guppies in 100 liters of water. and yes everything seems fine ....but this is only an exception
> this can apply to your tank also. some get lucky ...some not.
> every aquarium is very very different. should i point that cichlids are fish with REAL personality and they can be very very different?
> in this case only some experimentation can clear things up


I must agree =] I have a green terror that a person told me would destroy all of my fish and my plants and yet he doesn't touch my fish, he does however eat sword plants for a snack which I don't mind, every fish is different


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## astrosag (Sep 3, 2010)

Lol shrimp...must learn to consolidate posts! 

I do agree that the neons are probably spooked due to multiple factors including...

1. All of your sides are exposed which probably doesn't help in making the fish feel secure. I expect the background you (OP) are getting will help calm them

2. Angels are not helping either. Sure, you'll have people with varying experiences but in general, larger fish that can prey on them are likely not to contribute to making the neons feel safe. 

Of course, without eliminating these one by one, its difficult to say which factor is contributing most. I would put a background (which you're doing), add more plants and rocks to create a more full environment, and only after having done those things (assuming something silly like CO2 or other dosing stuff isn't causing this behavior) I would consider re-homing either the neons or angels.


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## david meyers (Jul 15, 2011)

Let's not get too hasty here & blame it on the angels. I've kept the two together off & on in my display tanks for years with no problems unless you put small fish with them. If they can get it in their mouth you've got problems. Those neons you have are way too big for those two angels. Do the neons come out at all for food? Where are they when it's totally dark? Use a very small light to see. I know this hasn't been much help. For the most part I was just defending the angels. They are great tank mates as long as they can't get it in their mouth.


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## dutchy (Jul 31, 2009)

I have the same with my group of 24 cardinals, but no angels here.....

The only time I see some are with feeding or half an hour before lights out...


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## Fahnell (Jan 20, 2011)

well
regarding the temp factor. this summer ...33C in my aquarium. my neons were ok.
even every computer is different...but fish 
and regarding the scalare size. how do we size them. only the body? or from the tips of the finns?
anyway our friend must do some test here to get to some practical conclusion
in the end i must say that we must put a line between surviving and thriving
a species only tank for neons = thriving
a tank with large fish like angels = surviving
i will alwas favor species only tank. you can customize the tank exactly for that species .


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## JasonG75 (Mar 1, 2011)

david meyers said:


> Let's not get too hasty here & blame it on the angels.


 
My Angels will go after my FEEDER guppies, and my FEEDER shrimp.

My Angels do not touch my Amano, or Cardinals or Rummies.

I do believe that being well fed helps this.


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## gordonrichards (Jun 20, 2009)

Adding a different species of fish that swims mid level might allow them a false feeling of security. Neons stay together in groups.

If other fish are swimming around the tank, they should come out of hiding too.


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## MRoss (Aug 17, 2011)

Fahnell said:


> well
> regarding the temp factor. this summer ...33C in my aquarium. my neons were ok.
> even every computer is different...but fish
> and regarding the scalare size. how do we size them. only the body? or from the tips of the finns?
> ...


I measure from the tip of the nose to the end of the caudal peduncle, or "standard length." With many fish, and angels in particular, measurements including fin lengths can be misleading.

Mike


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