# Discus... Stable conditions vs daily water change



## j03yYunG (Mar 26, 2013)

jameshill247 said:


> So I have my first discus tank
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=458065
> 
> ...


I started doing daily 10% WC --> 20% WC every other --> 40-50% WC weekly.

Just monitor your parameters. I say a weekly WC works perfectly fine. And it really depends on how many fish you have, feeding schedule and amount of plants you have.


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## jameshill247 (Apr 2, 2012)

j03yYunG said:


> I started doing daily 10% WC --> 20% WC every other --> 40-50% WC weekly.
> 
> Just monitor your parameters. I say a weekly WC works perfectly fine. And it really depends on how many fish you have, feeding schedule and amount of plants you have.


I'm probably at the limit to my tank if not slightly overstocked with the tetras and smaller fish 

Feeding now is at least daily but all gets eaten if anything my discus are under fed 

Not heavily planted but 5 plants including 3 large plants 

I'm thinking of getting an auto feeder for whilst I'm at work and setting it to 2 small feeds pellet/flake and then the bloodworm feed when I'm home so may need to increase the changes then


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

I raised a group of baby Discus with three weekly water changes of 50-60% and three feeding's each day till they were nearly five inches.Discus purist's scoffed at this routine, and suggested four or five five daily feeding's and daily water changes.
I then dropped feeding's to once a day,and one weekly 50% water change once fish achieved five inches. 
When these fish are small,they need the frequent feeding's to achieve good growth which mean's more water changes.
A few of your young Discus already show sign's of stunted growth (ie) Large eyes,should appear small ,and egg shaped fish as opposed to round Discus like ,(hence the name) are sign's of poor development.
One can raise even stunted fish and have them be fairly healthy with good diet,maint,they just won't grow as large as they could otherwise. 
Water changes only harm fish when new water is drastically different than that in the tank which cannot happen with frequent water changes.


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## jameshill247 (Apr 2, 2012)

roadmaster said:


> I raised a group of Discus with three weekly water changes of 50-60% and three feeding's each day till they were nearly five inches.Discus purist's scoffed at this routine and suggested five daily feeding's and daily water changes.
> I then dropped feeding's to once a day,and one weekly 50% water change.
> When these fish are small,they need the frequent feeding's to achieve good growth which mean's more water changes.
> A few of your young Discus already show sign's of stunted growth (ie) Large eyes,should appear small ,and egg shaped fish as opposed to round Discus like ,(hence the name) are sign's of poor development.
> ...


It's good to see that you managed it with a more relaxed routine I could at least do the above 

Yes I was worried about stunting the growth if I up the feed now do you think i would be able to resolve this?


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

jameshill247 said:


> It's good to see that you managed it with a more relaxed routine I could at least do the above
> 
> Yes I was worried about stunting the growth if I up the feed now do you think i would be able to resolve this?


Could not hurt.


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## Nu2Plants (Jun 22, 2013)

Is it better to have a stable tank? Yes fish, especially discus, want a stable tank. Will lots of water changes stress the fish and swing parameters? No. When you first think about it, it may seem like it would, but in reality, lots of huge water changes is done to keep the parameters stable. Almost an oxymoron isn't it? Lol

But think about it. If you keep a box of water without changing the water, it isn't stable, it's constantly getting more and more polluted. Everything that is good for the fish and you want, is being used up. And everything that is toxic and bad for the fish is building up. Yes you do have a filter, but it has limits. Especially in a discus tank, they are very sensitive, and will not tolerate water that is not pristine. Yes, they will 'live' in less than pristine water, but they will not be at their best.

Back to the water changes. Doing lots of water changes is done to maintain constant or at least more stable parameters. But you have to do it right. If you just use something like a python or use buckets to replace water, directly from the tap, you're doing it wrong. Yes it's easier, and yes you can get away with it for most fish, most of the time, but it's not the proper way to do things. Doing it this way you will never be able to match your parameters, and you will get swings just like you think. You have to age your water first, before adding it to your tank.

Why age water? For a few reasons. First off it allows you to put the water in a barrel of some sort, and put a heater into it, and you can match the temperature a LOT better than right out of the tap. Also once it's in the barrel you can add whatever you want to it, and test it to get the proper values. But most importantly water right out of tap usually has CO2 pressurized into it. Water plus CO2 make an acid, which will keep your ph artificially low. But in time that CO2 will degas, and when it does the ph will rise. How much will it rise? It depends on your particular tap water, but it could be a fair amount. So if you put tap water that is not aged into your tank, it might degas, in your tank, and your ph can now start to change. Especially if you do larger water changes.

So what do you do? Get a barrel of some sort. A lot of people use brute garbage cans. Just make sure they are food grade. Fill it with your tap water. Put a heater into the barrel, then add either an air pump and stone to agitate the water, or a water pump. The water pump has an added benefit in that you can pump the water from the barrel into the tank. Let the air stone or water pump run in the barrel for 24 hours. Check your ph before you start the pump, and then after 24 hours and see how much your ph changes. If it's more than 0.3-0.5 it's too much of a difference. You have to age your water. You can now match your parameters much better this way. That's how discus keepers can change 100% of the water twice daily and maintain almost constant values. 

For discus, especially sub adults, the key is a lot of frequent big water changes, and lots of varied foods.


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## Luminescent (Sep 13, 2013)

Think about where Discus are from, originally, and what is happening in their environment when they are at their peak. 

Picture this: Rainforest, rainy season. Rains every day, briefly, or sometimes all day. The fish in the rivers are getting a small 'water change' daily. The water runs across mulmy ground, down trees, dripping off of leaves and vines on its way to the river. This is changing the water slightly and feeding the fish through runoff of bugs/vegetation at the same time.

This is what you are trying to replicate.

I used to change 6 gallons every day-60 gallon tank. Breeding tomato discus.

I kept oak leaves and tiny alder pine cones in a net bag, and a small fountain pump (like 20gph) in one 8 gallon bucket that I kept filled with water. 

I would vacuum tank water into an empty 8 gallon bucket. When I was done I would replace the water with the water from the leaf/pine cone bucket, using the tiny fountain pump. That consisted of hanging the hose over the edge of the tank and plugging the pump in.

As it was filling I did feeding, glass wiping, inspecting the fish- normal, daily stuff. Low GPH pump - took about 15 min to fill.

Filled the 8 gallon bucket back up for the next day.

Took all of 20 min.

Much safer and more natural than the weekly hit of a big change.

Also, Discus in a community tank do much better if you get them a floating strainer feeder. Drop it in on one end while you toss a little flake to the community fish to distract them a bit.

Edit- p.s. If you use a rolling mop bucket on wheels for your 'fill' water supply, its much easier to move around. Get a brand new one and bleach then dry it very well.


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## SejRamkas (Jul 4, 2010)

Nu2Plants said:


> Is it better to have a stable tank? Yes fish, especially discus, want a stable tank. Will lots of water changes stress the fish and swing parameters? No. When you first think about it, it may seem like it would, but in reality, lots of huge water changes is done to keep the parameters stable. Almost an oxymoron isn't it? Lol
> 
> But think about it. If you keep a box of water without changing the water, it isn't stable, it's constantly getting more and more polluted. Everything that is good for the fish and you want, is being used up. And everything that is toxic and bad for the fish is building up. Yes you do have a filter, but it has limits. Especially in a discus tank, they are very sensitive, and will not tolerate water that is not pristine. Yes, they will 'live' in less than pristine water, but they will not be at their best.
> 
> ...


This is VERY good advice. I kept discus for ~2 years with decent results. Lost a couple here and there due to the learning curve, but eventually ended up with a 75 gallon full of very nice fish. Aging water is almost a must if you ask me. As mentioned above it not only gets the water to the same temperature as the tank (much less stress on fish when changing large quantities ~50-70%), and also regulates and stabilizes the pH naturally.

All this being said, you mentioned you work a lot. This is something very important to think about. If you start doing large >50% water changes daily you need to ensure you keep that routine going. If you travel or get lazy and can't keep up with that routine it is not a good idea to even start it. The tank (even if cycled) will not keep up with good bacteria if large amounts of water are changed daily. Yes, your parameters will be pristine because you are adding brand new water daily and it doesnt have a chance to pollute, but you also arent giving your good bacteria much to feed on. The fish will also get used to this pristine water and be even more susceptible to conditions brought on by poor water quality.

Some people may not agree with what I'm saying, but I am saying this because I learned the hard way when my routine started slipping. I used to use aged water changing >50% daily. I took on a new job that required more travel and longer hours, and because of this I wasn't able to keep up with this routine. It began slacking to >50% 1-2x weekly, and I started losing fish. With this being the only thing that had changed in my tank maintenance I figured it had to be the cause.

If you can't devote the time to daily changes with aged water I would advise buying discus that are already mature and changing 1-2x a week in large volumes with aged water. This routine seems to work well on adults, but as mentioned will lead to stunted juveniles as they require lots of feedings and pristine water to thrive.


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## jameshill247 (Apr 2, 2012)

Nu2Plants said:


> Is it better to have a stable tank? Yes fish, especially discus, want a stable tank. Will lots of water changes stress the fish and swing parameters? No. When you first think about it, it may seem like it would, but in reality, lots of huge water changes is done to keep the parameters stable. Almost an oxymoron isn't it? Lol
> 
> But think about it. If you keep a box of water without changing the water, it isn't stable, it's constantly getting more and more polluted. Everything that is good for the fish and you want, is being used up. And everything that is toxic and bad for the fish is building up. Yes you do have a filter, but it has limits. Especially in a discus tank, they are very sensitive, and will not tolerate water that is not pristine. Yes, they will 'live' in less than pristine water, but they will not be at their best.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice

Currently the water is aged in 100litre water butt with the minerals added back to obtain a tds similar to the tank 

Air pump added to water butt at all times to age and keep moving and avoid stagnant water 

No heater at the moment but will be added soon

Currently I fill the 25 litre container up and take it upstairs as my water but is in the garage 

The 25 litres is then heated and tested before being added via the 3 way valve I have on my external filter will post a video of that soon


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## Nu2Plants (Jun 22, 2013)

Hey there James. Sounds like you are on the right track. Can you move the butt someplace inside. You can put it anywhere it will fit. A closet, under a table, anywhere it'll fit. Then you can just pump it back into the tank. Also it'll be easier to heat the water, heaters are not made to keep water warmer than 10-15 degrees above ambient. So it'll be easier to keep the right temp.


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## jameshill247 (Apr 2, 2012)

Nu2Plants said:


> Hey there James. Sounds like you are on the right track. Can you move the butt someplace inside. You can put it anywhere it will fit. A closet, under a table, anywhere it'll fit. Then you can just pump it back into the tank. Also it'll be easier to heat the water, heaters are not made to keep water warmer than 10-15 degrees above ambient. So it'll be easier to keep the right temp.


No can do the Waterbut is about 4 ft tall lol

The system is pretty easy to use at the moment anyway as it pumps back into the tank but it would be nice if I could link the Waterbut and the tank


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## jameshill247 (Apr 2, 2012)

Oh and the tank is in my bedroom so another 100 litres upstairs is not a good idea


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## Nu2Plants (Jun 22, 2013)

Oh a few more things I forgot earlier. Can't remember everything lol. 

First as far as stability and constant parameter values are concerned. Think about it this way. Let's have two tanks with the same specifics, same size, fish etc. in the first tank you do a water change everyday. In the second tank you do a water change once a month. Ok now when you do the water change, in which tank will the new water cause a bigger change on the parameters?

In the first tank, you only have one days worth of use in it. In the second tank, you have a months worth of use. When you add the water to the first tank there will only be a small change. In the second tank, there is a huge difference between the old and the new water.

The other thing to think about is before you do a water change, do you test your parameters on the tank? My guess is yes most people do. But, do you also test the parameters of your tap water, BEFORE you add it to your tank? My guess is most don't. But you have to. First off you have to know what your adding, how do you know the water your are adding isn't too different from what's in your tank? After all, weren't you concerned about stability and changing water too often and too much? 

Most people think tap water stays the same all the time. But it doesn't. It changes all the time. The water company does whatever it needs to, to keep it safe. So if they need to add or substrate anything from the water at any time they do. And they usually don't tell you about it before they do either. If it's rained a lot, and there is run off, off the streets, they change things up, if there's a season change, they change things up. So you have to test you tap water, each time before adding it to your tank. Have you ever had a problem with your tank, a little after a water change? Taa daa! That could have been the reason.


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## jameshill247 (Apr 2, 2012)

Nu2Plants said:


> Oh a few more things I forgot earlier. Can't remember everything lol.
> 
> First as far as stability and constant parameter values are concerned. Think about it this way. Let's have two tanks with the same specifics, same size, fish etc. in the first tank you do a water change everyday. In the second tank you do a water change once a month. Ok now when you do the water change, in which tank will the new water cause a bigger change on the parameters?
> 
> ...


Yeah I think I'm going to up the water changes to 2 or 3 times a week if possible maybe start with 2 and see 

Depends on the feeding and the current params 

Yeah I test the water before a water change and the a couple of days after to check everything is okay 

I check the TDS and PH of the water I use in my ageing butt once the remineralisation has taken place 

The water is put through an RO filter and the TDS checked before adding to the waterbut so I'm pretty confident the water added to the Waterbut is fine

I'm probably worrying to much about it as it's checked in all the stages and would flag up any problems... Plus no deaths (minus the one in the journal whilst on holiday!) and params always seem good even when the test before the change is done which would mean the last change would have been 6 days ago 

I prefer using RO and then remineralise as it leaves less chance of me having to worry about changes to the source as I would if I just used treated tap


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## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

I don't want to be a downer please take this as constructive advice from someone who has 10 6.5"-7.5" discus that grew them out from 1.5"-2" in size (and has killed a few learning the basics). Some of your discus don't look like healthy growing discus, they have the classic stunted discus look with full coloration but large eyes and football shape. You had them for 4 months now and I'm not sure how old they were when you got them, maybe they were behind already before you got them. 

Going forward I would definitely do as many water changes as you can and up the feeding schedule. If you go over to simplydiscus the owner Al sells freeze dried blackworms in cubes that you can stick on the glass. This is a very good "clean" (won't foul your water) growth food to feed daily. You can also feed a good flake along with it for the extra vitamins and minerals.


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## jameshill247 (Apr 2, 2012)

lipadj46 said:


> I don't want to be a downer please take this as constructive advice from someone who has 10 6.5"-7.5" discus that grew them out from 1.5"-2" in size (and has killed a few learning the basics). Some of your discus don't look like healthy growing discus, they have the classic stunted discus look with full coloration but large eyes and football shape. You had them for 4 months now and I'm not sure how old they were when you got them, maybe they were behind already before you got them.
> 
> Going forward I would definitely do as many water changes as you can and up the feeding schedule. If you go over to simplydiscus the owner Al sells freeze dried blackworms in cubes that you can stick on the glass. This is a very good "clean" (won't foul your water) growth food to feed daily. You can also feed a good flake along with it for the extra vitamins and minerals.



I'm still learning so any advice is always appreciated especially things I need to improve so thanks :smile:

yeah I have had tubiflex cubes before and the fish really seemed to like them






I could get someone at home to just stick a couple of cubes in the tank while I'm at work and a pinch of flake for the tetras etc 

for 5 discus how many cubes should i put in if im planning on feeding in the morning before work then 1 feed mid day and then an evening feed which will be the frozen mix 

I used to use 2/3 cubes on the glass 

also when i feed frozen i use 2 bloodworm cubes 1 brineshrimp 

or 

2 blood worm one discus mix cube but they seem to prefer the brineshrimp i think


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## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

I would get the blackworms and not feed tubifex as blackworms are much cleaner. I believe you have a source of FD blackworms in england go over to BIDKA and post a question about them. You can do 2 feeding a day as long as they are a good growth food. Clean water is probably more important to discus growth than food so do as many water changes as you can.


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## du3ce (Jan 26, 2013)

Get a automatic feeder problem solved you should prob feed them some flakes or tetrabits so that way they dont get used to just eating frozen food

samsung galaxy s3


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## jameshill247 (Apr 2, 2012)

lipadj46 said:


> I would get the blackworms and not feed tubifex as blackworms are much cleaner. I believe you have a source of FD blackworms in england go over to BIDKA and post a question about them. You can do 2 feeding a day as long as they are a good growth food. Clean water is probably more important to discus growth than food so do as many water changes as you can.


I will take a look for the blackworms then and try them on that thanks


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## jameshill247 (Apr 2, 2012)

du3ce said:


> Get a automatic feeder problem solved you should prob feed them some flakes or tetrabits so that way they dont get used to just eating frozen food
> 
> samsung galaxy s3


Yeah I think that's a good idea actually 

I use prima and flake as well in this tank so could put that in an auto feeder


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## Chicagodiscus (Oct 16, 2013)

Aging water and frequent water changes are very essential for discus growth.......Josie 

I recently grew these out and this is what I did

http://youtu.be/_W8pxlqtcPo

And they turned into this 

http://youtu.be/_BwDdBU-t3w


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Beautiful discus, Josie - Love 'em !


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## jameshill247 (Apr 2, 2012)

Chicagodiscus said:


> Aging water and frequent water changes are very essential for discus growth.......Josie
> 
> I recently grew these out and this is what I did
> 
> ...


Nice 

A lot larger than mine 

Hopefully I can turn them Around to some extent


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## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

jameshill247 said:


> Nice
> 
> A lot larger than mine
> 
> Hopefully I can turn them Around to some extent


Yes you will be able to get some growth on them with clean water and good food. My discus are all over a year old and still are growing slowly. The 2 year olds are pretty much done but still getting thicker and filling out the roundness


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## Dx3Bash (Jan 9, 2013)

Chicagodiscus said:


> Aging water and frequent water changes are very essential for discus growth.......Josie
> 
> I recently grew these out and this is what I did
> 
> ...


How old were they when you got them and how much time elapsed between videos?


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## jameshill247 (Apr 2, 2012)

lipadj46 said:


> Yes you will be able to get some growth on them with clean water and good food. My discus are all over a year old and still are growing slowly. The 2 year olds are pretty much done but still getting thicker and filling out the roundness


Hope so I have updated the journal with some better photos so I can see a before and after


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