# Going Dutch



## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Looking good so far! Points to you for trying a serious Dutch setup. roud: On first inspection it looks like all of your plants are aquatic so you probably won't have to worry about issues there. Now, on to your questions. 

3. Walls- I answered that in response to your question my thread. ABSOLUTELY make walls. They're considered an essential component of this type of aquascape/aquarium in the Netherlands. True Dutch aquascapes as they're done to conform to the NBAT rules are pretty much required to have them. 

4. Number of species- In my conversations with past NBAT national champions they've said that the 1 plant per 10 cm of length includes ALL plants in the tank, not just stem species. There's a little wiggle room there but in general, don't go over more than 2 above the 1/10cm rule. Sticking to the rule is best. 

6. It looks like you've got a good start on the street and focal points. Figuring out how fast things grow, what would be best to place where, and all that comes with time tinkering with your tank. Don't freak out if you need to move things around and adjust the size or shape of a grouping to get it just right; that's all part of the process (and fun!).  

It looks like you've got a couple different plants in there that would traditionally be used as a focal species; the sword and banana plant lily(lilies?) especially. For now it's probably a good idea to put them both in the middle open spaces so you can see how they'll grow in a more appropriate location.

Take a look at my 60 gallon thread for some ideas. Right now it's just packed with plants in a vague semblance of an aquascape so it's worth looking at while I learn how the plants do in my system. It'll be changing a lot with time, as yours probably will be too. 

7. Some plants will flower under water, but most stem species flower above water. Chances are good that the plant you're talking about was grown above water in the nursery and came with buds. It's common for those buds to open when first put into an aquarium. 

Points to you for taking the Dutch Challenge! I look forward to seeing your tank grow and change with time. 

Regards,
Phil


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

*Making adjustment to Dutch Aquarium*

Thank you Phil. 

I took your advice and moved the sword out of the right hand corner and replanted it towards the center of the tank. I originally put the amazon sword in corner to camouflage heater.

The banana looking plant was actually a Nymphoides sp. ''Taiwan'' that was melting away because of all the moving around. Hopefully it will recover in my other tank. I was hoping that it would create that "curtain" effect... maybe not

So I have 14 plants in the tank now, that's 2 over the recommend guidelines. I'm trying my best to keep to the 1 plant per 10 cm.

I think that the left back corner feels cluttered. My LFS gave me some Limnophila aromatica for free so I had to find a place for it. I put it in the corner hoping that it will hide the equipment. I placed it next to the water wisteria (left of the amazon sword) but I'm on the fence about these two plants. Maybe I should let the tank grow in a little before I do more editing.

The other thing that I am trying to figure out is if I should keep the Echinodorus 'Vesuvius' where it is. Is it considered a stem plant or a grass?


I have 2 red plants in the tank, a red tiger lotus and some Ludwigia glandulos which looks really sad right now. I'm not loving it... 
any suggestions on red plants? Something that is going to stand out.


Here's some pics I took with my phone. Disregard the white lines on the tank, I was making sure I had the spacing right. Yes, I know... a little OCD


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

MamaJu,

The best advice I can give right now is to just let the tank be for a while. Let the plants grow out until the tank's full and then start seriously considering aquascaping. Unless you're willing to drop the $$ you need to fill in all that empty space at once, that is.  

The awesome thing about Dutch tanks is it's ok to tweak things over time as you learn how the plants do in your tank. Just don't move things around every day.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

I just saw this thread and I'm glad to see others attempting to try the Dutch scapes. It needs to stay relevant and not become a thing of the past. I don't think there is anything wrong with making a twist on the traditional Dutch style by using hard scape but to see someone attempting to keep it traditional is encouraging to say the least. I agree with Phil about letting it fill in and grow for awhile before deciding on final plant positions. I spent my first years in this hobby strictly growing different plants with no concern with regards to actually scaping anything. I helped me just to learn certain plants growth rates and habits. Keep at it and don't be afraid to move things around once they grow in and place them in better suited places.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

Phil,

I saw your post too late as I already changed some plants around this morning because I didn't like some of the plant placement. UGH. Hopefully the plants won't melt too much. So now I'm just going to wait for the plants to grow in  

Ua Hua,

I was actually inspired by your previous dutch aquarium post so I decided to keep a journal of my dutch aquarium challenge. I have been trying to keep to the dutch guideline as close as possible. I still need to build a moss wall for the sides of the tank. I am still debating if I will do what everyone else does and sandwich moss between plastic mess or use Styrofoam sheets. Currently I have some java moss clipped to the back of the wall with suction cups until I figure out a more permanent solution.

Has anyone had any experience using Mattenfilter / Poret foam filter as walls?

Here are some more pics of my tank after I moved the "street" again.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Looking better, now for another challenge- don't touch the plants for three weeks. Can you do it?  

As far as the wall thing goes, if you don't want to tear the tank all down and let it sit dry for a few days while the silicone cures I wouldn't go with a foam wall. Poret foam will work if you can get it in 1/2" thickness, paint it, and find a way to stick it to the walls. It'll probably be cheaper to get plastic mesh and coconut fiber matting from a garden center to make the walls out of and should serve the same purpose. 

If you're looking for something more rigid you can zip tie plastic mesh to egg crate and paint it fairly easily. That sort of thing is easy to super glue ferns, Anubias, or other epiphytes to if a moss wall isn't your thing.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

*Next challenge ...*

Phil,

3 weeks without touching the tank?! WOW, that's an eternity. I'm going to try my best though. Good thing I have other tanks to mess with... plus I have school work that I need to do :icon_mad: 

Planted wall {
How would you attach egg crates to the wall? Would "instant ocean HOLDFAST" work? Maybe not since the aquarium walls have to be dry I guess I could always move the fish to another tank for a couple of days if it comes to that. 
}


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Suction cups! :thumbsup:

If you're able to move the fish to a different tank long enough to use Holdfast, you may as well use silicone and styro board. That's a better solution if you're willing/able to make a more long term/semi-permanent change to your tank.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

*Planted Wall*

*Phil,*

I want Juwell background but can't find in the States. I found this how to build a foam wall by Smooth-on. Although it looks awesome, it also looks really messy and frustrating to a novice. I don't think the time and money invested in the "smooth on" option will produce anything as nice as what was done in the video. 

I really like the styrofoam idea with the magnet attached to the back. I think that using silicone to permanently attach the styrofoam to the tank isn't an option (because my husband says so :frown Do you have to seal the styrofoam with cement or can I just paint it with water resistant spray paint or paint it with acrylic? 

I was also looking for black egg crate for the aquarium wall and ran across Universal Rocks 48-Inch by 20-Inch Rocky Flexible Aquarium Background. What do you think? Too thin?

*Anyone *have any experience with Universal Rocks?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

MamaJu,

I just checked out that video and that setup is a bit fancier than is really needed for making a plant wall. All you really need is a piece of sturdy foam board (again, I prefer the solid core plastic stuff, not the boards made from compressed balls/beads), some way to keep it where you want it, and a way to make it the color you want. 

In the past I've done this two ways:
1- Painted solid core foam sheets with black Rust-O-Leum (NOT the spray; it'll melt the styro). This was easiest for me and worked well in a large tank where I'd intended it to be permanent. This one got a lot of silicone all over to seal it and make sure it didn't lift up.

2- Eggcrate, spray foam, suction cup, and Rust-O-Leum wall. This is probably the better choice for making a removable wall. When I did this one I covered a sheet of the cheap white eggcrate with expandable spray foam (I used Great Stuff brand), let it dry, trimmed it to my desired thickness, painted it with matte black Rust-O-Leum and attached it to the walls. Again, I intended this to be a permanent solution so I siliconed the whole thing to the glass. 

To make it removable, simply decide on how you want to do it (suction cups, magnets, etc) and attach them to the eggcrate before foaming. I used cheap suction cups with metal hooks used for hanging stuff on glass and zip-ties on an egg-crate and plastic mesh moss wall with great success. Depending on the type of hooks, you may need to do a little modification with plyers to make more of an L shape rather than a J shape hook for easier attachment. 

A point worth noting is that regardless of the method of attachment you use; if it's meant to be removable make sure you use many magnets/suction cups along the bottom as that's the most likely place for lifting to occur. For safety's sake, figure out how many magnets/cups you want to use then double it. The more points of contact across the whole area of the wall, the better.


The universal rocks background will be difficult to attach plants to without using super glue. It also looks a lot more expensive than the DIY options.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

Phil,

Thank you for the tips. I went to Home Depot to to gather my supplies for the foam walls and got sidetrack when I went to the plant section of Home Depot. I stumbled across "Sakrete EZ Base Patio stone and paver base" and had an idea:icon_idea









My husband and I decided to put all the white egg create, pink foam, and paint stuff back... We figured, we needed a black foam board that was waterproof, so why not give it a try. We purchased suction cups and coral glue too but ended up not using them.

I have a bar in the middle of my tank so I had to cut the foam into 2 pieces for the back of the tank. I actually had to cut even more off to fit in the opening of the tank... this is why I should have gotten a tank without the bar 

I tried to attach the java moss to the wall with coral glue but it didn't look good. It left a white residue, plus messy when I was trying to attach the java moss to the foam board. I thought about push pins or stapling the moss to the foam board but eventually decided to just use fishing line. I figured if it doesn't hold up then I can just pull the fishing line off and try something else and no java moss would be damaged in the process. It isn't pretty but I hope that the java moss will grow in and cover all the fishing line. 









It was 1 AM and I was too lazy to get out the hose to suction water out of the tank so I just went for it. I shoved the foam boards into the tank, wiggled the bottom of the board into the substrate and tucked the top of the board under the lip of the opening. I didn't use the suction cup or magnets since it was such a snug fit... flush to the glass too, so no worries that fish will get stuck behind it. Plus my filter intake still fit over the foam so I didn't have to cut a place in the foam for it.














Here's a bad picture of the back wall... I have a gap on the sides large enough for my heater and/or filter. I haven't gotten to the sides of the tank yet... I wanted to get some feedback first. 









What do you think? Disaster or genius? Should the foam cover the entire back and side wall? I have a 3-4 inch gap where there is no foam, do you think that will be ok? I have extra foam so I could fill in the gaps. I wasn't sure and now having gone through it, I think that I could do a better job. 

How should I have attached the java? I still have the side walls to do... but first I need to get more java moss. Or should I try some other plant? Any suggestion? I saw that you attached java fern to your walls... how did you attach them?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Oooooh, I like that. How much was it and is it soft enough to be able to push staples into? I may give that a try in one of my tanks. I'm curious to see how well it stays in place without adhesive and if it turns out to be toxic. Let's hope not on the last point. 

If the fishing line's holding the moss down then it's good enough.  If you want/need to add more moss give the mesh trick a try…if it's soft enough for staples. I used two plastic grids and suction cups for the moss wall in the 75. If you can get grid sheets attached to the wall that should work nicely. I typically use staples or bent framing brads to attach ferns and Anubias. I've used super glue/cyanoacrylate on ferns and Anubias too. The only drawbacks to the glue is you have to make sure both surfaces are dry first and gluing makes it harder to move plants around as needed. 

As for the spaces and side walls, that's totally up to you. NBAT tradition and rules dictate covered side and back panes. If you want to stick to "How It's Done For Real" then yes, you need to cover the sides. A space in one corner for heaters/filter pipes is easily covered by a tall bunch of stems and shouldn't pose an aesthetic problem over time.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

*Planted wall in Dutch Aquarium*

The panels were $12 and I bough 3. The foam is soft enough to staple into and ridged enough to stand on its own. I went to the manufacturer's website but wasn't able to find any material composition or toxic information about the Sakrete EZ Safe. I emailed them but haven't hear back yet. I'll let you know when or if I hear back from them. I hope that it isn't toxic for the fish :frown: I really like the look and was thinking about doing it to all my tanks in the future. But I'll need to see how it holds up. I'm glad that it is easy to take out if I change my mind. The annoying part is that it makes a big mess to the substrate. I imagine that adding the walls to an empty tank is much easier... but it seems that I like to do things backwards and take the more challenging route. My tank was full of water, fish, plants and substrate when I added the foam walls :icon_redf I ended up pulling up all my plants... so I failed the last challenge of not touching the plants for 3 weeks :frown: I only made it a week. It was my fault that I didn't plan things out better. 

I had to redo one of the panels on the back wall so that there were no gaps. I'm glad that I did because it looks a lot better. I completed the side walls too. I didn't leave any space for the heater or anything. I figure that I would let the heater just float in the corners and eventually it will be hidden once the plants grow in. Now I wish I went with an inline heater but I didn't realize that there was such a thing until after I purchased 2 jager heaters  . Oh well, my husband will probably change it out in the future because he is convinced that the heaters are going to melt the foam. (I wasn't going to bring up the fact that boiling hot water is put in Styrofoam cups all the time and we normally don't keep our tank above 82 degrees :biggrin: )

Mess stapled to foam wall... what a great idea. :thumbsup: Why didn't I think of that? I'm going to try out the grid and staples on the side walls once I get more java moss. I have some Taiwan moss but I'm not sure if it will look right to have mixed mosses on different walls. What do you think?

If I could do it again...
1) Get a 90 gallon tank and hire someone to build the tank stand and canopy. This was a Black Friday impulse buy. Great deal on a 75 gallon though. We wanted a bigger tank but we should have gone bigger 
2) Purchased an inline heater.
3) Done more research on lighting... I have Zoomed Aquasun LED HO and Current Satellite LED Plus running currently.
4) Put up the foam walls before adding substrate or flooding the tank.

Oh well, it's a learning process...


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

*Sakrete Ez Safe foam*

Got a response from the company... Sakrete EZ Safe can be placed near a pond and the runoff from it is safe, however they do no recommend using this product in an aquarium because the fish may pick or eat the foam.

Well, I figured that I'll take the chance with Sakrate EX Safe in the aquarium. It's been a week and all the fish are still alive. I'll be sure to keep an eye on the foam and the fish. 

If fish picking at the foam is an issue, I decided to also experiment with a white plastic grid and moss on one wall to see how the moss grows through the grid. If the fish end up picking at the foam, then I will cover the moss with a plastic grid on the remaining walls. 

I used some plastic pegs I got from Joann's Fabric in the Styrofoam area. 








Push the plastic pegs into the holes of the foam board, lay moss down, then cover with plastic grid.









Here are updated pictures. 



























I had to replant everything since I did everything in reverse. I'm not sure if I like the plant relocation but I'm going to let the plants grow in for now.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

The walls are looking great! I can already see the mosses growing and can tell those walls are going to be nice. Thanks for sharing the tip on the pegs, that's an awesome idea. I think I'll give those a go myself when the time come.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

*Cat pissed about planted wall*

I think the cat is pissed about the planted wall. 

Her solution...


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

Update: 
Added 7 Boeseman's Rainbowfish
Added 7 rio tetra
Added 1 nitrite snail
Added 1 mystery snail
Added salt and increased temp to 84 for 10 days due ick from new fish
Added crushed coral - suspect snail shell pitting

Lights: 
zoomed T5HO $25 deal at petco
current satellite plus led

Fert: EI dosing micro/macro (when I remember)
Pressurized CO2

no changes to the foam construction; no discoloration; no dead fish from walls

Walls {

Left wall - Taiwan moss; not much growth; some green algae
Back wall - java moss doesn't seem to be growing. added Microsorum
pteropus 'Windeløv' into a hole in the wall
Right wall - Taiwan moss - some green sprouts
}

I suspect stunted moss growth is due to the snails and siamese algae eaters snacking on it or the temp is too high. 

Plants {_ from top to bottom, left to right_

Lace Wisteria; growing slow
Cabomba purple - growing fast; trimmed once
Downoi (Pogostemon helferi) - planted 2 packs from PetSmart; only a few remain
Amazon sword - growing like crazy; has bba
Tiger Lotus - growing fast
unknown broad leaf plant from Petco - minimal growth - this is my least favorite and probably will be replaced
unknown little leaf plant from Petco - fastest growing
Lobelia cardinalis - slow growth; brown algae
Echinodorus angustifolia 'Vesuvius' - brown algae on tips; growing side shots
Ludwigia repens - growing fast; not red enough
Hygrophila corymbosa or maybe blue hygrophila - new sprouts
Limnophila hippuridoides - new sprouts growing slowly
Brazilian Pennywort - growing algae; no noticeable growth bc of rearrangement; stuck stem btwn fishing line going up the wall
}

Disregard the moss ball.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Look at that! It's coming along really well MamaJu. Love the pic of your girl on top of the tank now that she can't see through the wall. LOL

A couple things to consider:
1. Salt may harm and or kill your plants depending on concentration and how long you let it stay in there before changing the water.

2. CO2 gas + crushed coral = a large increase in Ca, Mg, and CO3 input into your tank. Keep an eye on your GH and KH; especially KH. If they start getting above 5-6 degrees, take the crushed coral out. That being said, I bet the sword plant, rainbows, and livebearers love the increased hardness.


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

MamaJu said:


> I think the cat is pissed about the planted wall.
> 
> Her solution...
> 
> ...


Good think you don't have a fat cat that could break an aquarium lid. Looks like its plotting how to open this giant fish soup box and get the tasties out...


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

Update:

Moss wall: Took the white plastic grid off the left wall because the moss didn't look like it was growing through the mesh. Ugh... I removed it too soon. The moss was attaching to the wall and growing in nicely behind the grid. Plus the moss was growing in evenly. I should have left it on for a little longer. Overall the moss has been attaching to the wall and looking great. 

Plants: Removed a plant that was only growing green algae. It was looking ugly so I removed it. 

Did some light trimming and replanting. I need to work on learning how to trim the plants so that they look nice. Currently they look like they got a lopsided haircut. Any advice?


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

Removed heaters since the weather has gotten warmer.

Removed 5 small platyes.

Rearranged plants and did some light thinning. Trimmed the mother Amazon Sword to the substrate... Not sure if that was a good idea or not. 

Phil and friends,

I have a bunch of questions:
1) Do I trim the moss wall?
2) Should I cut the stem plants all the way to the substrate for it to grow in thicker?
3) Do I trim the tiger lotus?
4) Any suggestions on the plant arrangement? 
5) Any suggestions on which plant to remove or plant?

Thanks in advance everyone


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

*One step too far...*

Purchased some Rotala Butterfly from a member on this forum (thanks Mot). I had so much that I thought that I needed to rearrange the set up. 

This was the tank before the new addition








This was the tank after the addition







I thought Rotala Butterfly's leaves were too similar to the plant that is to the left of it. So I moved this, trimmed that, etc.

I should have stopped there... after adding the Rotala Butterfly

A couple of hours later. This is what my dutch aquarium looks like now... I got carried away with the scissors. 








One step forward, 2 steps back...

Now I'm second guessing the moves. I have 15 plants, one over the dutch rule of 1 plant per 10 cm... Ugh. One plant needs to go... maybe I should have left the purple cabomba where is was and just gotten rid of the plant that was to the right of the Rotala Butterfly. Maybe it'll look better when it grows in. :help::help::help:

Hopefully it grows in quickly.


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## werner_eye (Apr 4, 2014)

I don't think anything needs to go. That tank looks awesome and will only get better. I don't thing the algae grower under you name fits as well as it does for me...my anubias are covered with blue green. But, back on subject, that is the kind of success i'm looking for. You should be ecstatic with your progress. Keep it up and keep the pics coming.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

*You know you're addicted when...*

... you have to wait for your husband to leave the house before you touch the tank because there is no one to control my impulses.

I couldn't help it. I was up all night staring at the pictures of my dutch aquarium. So I woke up this morning and waited for my husband to leave before I started to mess with the aquarium again. 

I switched the Cabomba Purple (Red) (Cabomba pulcherrima) and Bacopa monnieri. The reason I prefer the 2nd image before the hack job, is because it looks like the focus is the Lobelia cardinalis street. The path looks like it leads somewhere beyond...

Full View















*
werner_eye,*

Thank you for the encouraging words. It's hard to tell from the pictures but I do have algae. I combat it with oto's, siamese algae eaters, snails, and amano shrimps. Don't feel bad about your anubias, my anubias that are pinned to the wall is turning yellow and growing holes... Not doing well at all. I still have a lot to learn. 

*Lesson 1: Patiences*
I need to let my aquarium grow in... otherwise there will be nothing left since I damage the bottom of the stems every time I move the plants around. 

*Lesson 2: Learn trimming technique*
I'm still working on how to trim the plants without making it look like bad haircut.  My plan is to cut the stems an inch from the substrate and replant the tops. I'm hoping that the rooted stem will grow two additional branches and that the tops of the replant will root. Hopefully the short stems will get enough light and not melt away.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

*Question about fish for Dutch Aquascape*

Now that I am waiting for my plants to grow, I want to focus on my fish selection.

Judging criteria for the planted aquarium
Animals
- Appropriate number of fish to the size of the aquarium 
- schooling fish should be at least ten 
- Compatibility of fish species and other animals

Current Stock
Animals{
Top Level Swimmers:
3 Marble Hatchet (Carnegiella strigata 2" temp 75-81° F, KH 10-18, pH 5.5-7.5)

Top - Mid Level Swimmers:
7 Boesemani Rainbow (Melanotaenia boesemani 3" temp 72 - 77, KH 9 - 19, pH 7 - 8)
3 Threadfin Rainbow (Iriatherina werneri 2" temp 72 - 77, KH 7 - 10, pH 5.8 - 6.5)
3 Praecox Rainbow (Melanotaenia praecox 3" temp 64 - 72, KH 8 - 12, pH 5.8 - 6.5)
1 Turquoise Rainbow (Melanotaenia lacustris 4" temp 70-77, KH 10-12, pH 7.0-7.5)

Mid Level Swimmers:
6 Von rio flame tetra (Hyphessobrycon flammeus 2" temp 72 - 77, KH 4 - 8, pH 5.5 - 7.5)

Bottom Level Swimmers:
2 German Blue Ram (Papiliochromis ramirezi 3" temp 72-79° F, KH 5-12, pH 5.0-7.0)
1 Apistogramma borellii (4" temp 68 - 79, KH 8 - 18, pH 6 - 8)

Clean-up Crew:
5 Otocinclus Catfish (Otocinclus sp. 2" temp 74-79° F, KH 6-10, pH 6.8-7.5)
2 Siamese Algae Eater (Crossocheilus siamensis 6" temp 75-79° F, KH 5-10, pH 6.5-7.0)
1 Zebra Netrite snail (Neritina natalensis sp. "Zebra" 1" temp 72 - 78, dH 8 - 12, pH 7 - 8.5)
1 Black Mystery snail (2" temp 68 - 85, KH 12 - 18, pH 6.5 - 8)
1 Apple snail (2" temp 68 - 85, KH 12 - 18, pH 6.5 - 8)
}

Thinking about changing the stock to
Animals{
Top Level Swimmers:
10 Marble Hatchet 

Top - Mid Level Swimmers:
7 Boesemani Rainbow
7 Praecox Rainbow

Mid Level Swimmers:
10 Rummynose tetra

Bottom Level Swimmers:
2 German Blue Ram 
1 Apistogramma borellii 

Clean-up Crew:
5 Otocinclus Catfish 
2 Siamese Algae Eater 
}

*Do all the Rainbow fish need to be the same type when considering a minimum of 10 schooling fish?*

*Should Threadfin Rainbows and Praecox Rainbows be housed together with Boesemani Rainbow and Turquoise Rainbow?* The former have pH requirements of 5.8 - 6.5 whereas the latter group has pH requirements of 7 - 8.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

*ICK Outbreak*

So sad... I have an ick outbreak in my 75 gallon. 

Day 1: I added aquarium salt and added heaters into the tank. I set the temp to 80.
Day 2: 30% water change. Turned off CO2. Stopped EI fert.
Day 3: 30% water change. Lost 1 Hatchet.
Day 4: Left tank alone.
Day 5: 30% water change. Moved spray bar over water level to increase O2.
Day 6: Everything seemed like it was looking up but then I woke up this morning, all my fish were covered with spots  I'm so sad. My husband installed the inline heater and increased the temp to 85 and added more salt.

My plants seem to stop growing and I have cotton looking stuff growing on my plants... might be hair algae. I don't think I can do much about it at this time as my tank has an ick outbreak. Maybe I should decrease the light duration from 12 hours to 8. 

I noticed that salt alone doesn't cure the ick, but it seems to sooth the fish as they moved around better with less flashing. It's only been a day with the temp at 85 so I'm hoping that I don't have any other deaths. Poor fish. 

Can I continue with CO2 and EI for the plants while my tank has an ick outbreak? I feel like my SAEs started to flash right away after I dosed EI micro. I'm not sure if it was a coincidence or not. 

My dilemma ... do I sacrifice the plants or the fish? Things were so much easier when all I had were cheap little platys in the tank. They were hardy fish and weren't bother by the CO2 or EI ferts. Now that I have spent a little money on fish, I don't want to loose them nor do I want to loose my plants now that I have them where I want them. ARGH! :icon_cry:


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Wow, sorry to hear that  I havent posted but Ive been following your journal

How much salt did you add? In my experience (with fish only tanks) it's best to increase the salt dosage every day or two as well, slowly up to like 3-4 tbsp per 5 gallons, along with a 30% water change every other day. Of course that is geared more toward saving the fish than plants. Ive never treated ich in a heavily planted tank, so take it for what it's worth. 

Good luck, keep us posted


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

I put in about a cup of aquarium salt the first day. Today I didn't measure it... just grabbed a handful and threw it into the tank out of frustration. The fish swarmed to it as it sank to the bottom of the tank. I should probably check the pH and hardness when I wake up to see if I need to do another water change. 

My husband even put Fenbendazole into the tank just in case it might help... figured it couldn't hurt.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

*Ick outbreak continues*

The fish are looking better. Many still have white spots on them but not quite as much as before. 

Sadly I only see 2 thread fin rainbows. I haven't discovered a body yet but that could mean that it was an expensive snack for his tank mates. 

Well it makes my decision about populating my tank easier... I think the water param for the thread fin and others are too broad on the spectrum. The thread fin prefer cooler temp with softer water whereas the other rainbows like the opposite. Once the ick is under controlled I might sell the thread fin or put them in another tank. 

Fertilizer{
added EI macro, excel, and add iron }


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

Lost another hatchet... now there is one. Less spots on fish but female German Blue Ram not looking so well. She has been hanging out near the spray bar and not moving around much. 

Did 30% water change and she seemed to perk up a little. She swam out a couple of inches, threw up something white, and then swam back to the spray bar. I'm not sure what to do to help her. If I isolate her I think that it will stress her out even more. ARGH!! :help:


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

Another one bites the dust 

Lost the last hatchet today. Could have been due to ick, the high temp, or a broken heart since it was the only one left.

Good news is that the german blue ram female survived. She was swimming around more but the male gbr kept chasing her around. She still looks like she has clamped fins. Hopefully she make it through.

There aren't any visible spots on any fish so I lowered the temp from 85 to 80. Hopefully I can resume CO2 and EI dosage again without worrying about losing any more fish.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

This tank is absolutely beautiful! Maybe one day I'll have to make a go at a Dutch tank


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Indeed, beautiful tank. Glad to hear the worst is over. 

Any idea what caused the outbreak? Usually it's either a drop in temperature or from the addition of new fish that may already be sick.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

Thank you for the kind words. 

I can't pinpoint the exact cause of the outbreak as I made so many changes within a few days. 

I originally took the heaters out of the tank because I had a Columnaris outbreak. I lost all my bettas and a few tetras. I think it came from the fish I got from PetCo. I can't remember the medication that was used but my tank recovered from it. Then I added a new plant and then a couple of new fish. I probably could have avoided all this if I had set up a quarantine tank. 

My husband is begging me to stop adding and moving things around now that the tank is stable.  I can't make promises I can't keep. I told him that I have a list of fish I wanted to add and my plants need to be trimmed regularly. :icon_mrgr: I guess that I could wait until my tank has fully grown before adding more live stock. 

Right now my plants are suffering. They are stunted from the high temp, lack of CO2, and ferts. Lots of them have been uprooted because of all the flashing from my fish. ARGHHH! :icon_mad:


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Looking really good! I'm sorry to hear about the fish, but the plants and scaping are coming along nicely.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

Female German Blue Ram has a bubble eye. I removed her and placed her in an isolated tank. Husband medicated her with antibiotics. Added epson salt the next day. Hopefully she makes it. 









To do list:
fertilize - I am debating if I should continue with EI dosing or use up all my seachem ferts first. I might use up all my seachem ferts first as it's taking up a lot of room.

So now I need to research my seachem fertilization schedule.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

1 Flame Tetra died along with some other small platy fry. Noticed that the dead fish were caught in the needle java fern and other debris was getting stuck in it. I was concerned that it was blocking the intake flow so I removed the java fern.

Tested the water.
ph 7.2
gh 5
kh 1

Did a 50% water change.
Dosed EI Micro
Added 5 ml of Seachem Iron.
Turned CO2 back on.

Hopefully my plants will start to look better. Currently my red plants look green. :icon_frow I'm hoping the Rotala macrandra will turn red like the ones in Tom Barr's tank since this plant was originally from Tom. 

:help: Does anyone have any suggestions on enhancing the color of the red plants?

The blue hydro's leaves are shredded up like something has eaten the leaves. I'm not sure how to fix it. The plant looks like it's swiveling up instead of growing lush... 

I have a couple stems of downoi left. Really sad since I started with 3 packets from Petsmart. I'm not sure if I should keep trying or save my money. Seem like I'm having a difficult time getting the plant to root in the flourite. Anyone have any suggestions?


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

MamaJu said:


> 1 Flame Tetra died along with some other small platy fry. Noticed that the dead fish were caught in the needle java fern and other debris was getting stuck in it. I was concerned that it was blocking the intake flow so I removed the java fern.
> 
> Tested the water.
> ph 7.2
> ...


Since you are already using some liquid ferts, have you considered Seachem's Aquavitro line? They only sell it at LFS from what I've read, not online, but I use the complete line in both of my tanks, and the reds really come through on my plants. The price really isn't bad at all, on two tanks with full dosing, I still have a lot of the bottles left. It's really great stuff, and insanely easy to use. I use Propel (Iron), Synthesis (nitrogen/nitrate), Activate (phosphorus), and Envy, which covers just about everything a plant could want aside from the other three. It's all very concentrated, so you don't use a lot, and it was about 10 bucks for each bottle. The Iron I use the most of and am only about half way through the bottle, dosing two tanks, and have been using it for almost 2.5-3 months now.... Just a thought. The reds on two of my plants (no idea what they are tbh), are very strong, and aside from algae, all of my plants are very healthy and grow like weeds.

http://www.aquavitro.com/products/plant.html


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Up your lights for redder reds. You already have the ferts and co2 for it.

*edit: By that I mean brighter, not a longer photo-period


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

Little Soprano,

Thank you for the suggestion. Currently I have some of Seachem's liquid ferts: flourish, excel, trace, iron, nitrogen, potassium, and phosphorus. Is it the same stuff but packaged differently? I'll probably try it once I run out of what I currently have.


burr740,

hmm... my lights are on for 12 hours. I have a T5 running in the back half of the tank and Satellite plus LED running in the front half. Perhaps things will get better after a couple of days with the ferts and CO2 running. If nothing changes then I'll probably have to reconsider getting different lights. Maybe BML...


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Yeah I mean if you just want to get back to what you had before, Im sure it will, it will just take some time for everything to recover. I was just saying if you wanted brighter reds than that, imo you need more PAR. Im in much the same boat. We have similar 75's, lighting wise, except you're running CO2 and I'm doing Excel. My reds are similar to what yours were before the outbreak.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

Another one bites the dust...

Male German blue ram died.  He had no outward symptoms and was acting normally previously.

A Boesemani Rainbow had lesions and missing scales on her body. I think it was fin rot... I tried to quarantine her but she died shortly after the move.

My husband did another 50% water change and dosed the tank with canaplex. I didn't bother to turn my CO2 off and continued with ferts. 

So I have conceded to my husband's request... no more fish for a while. I'm going to concentrate on growing plants in this tank, the fish can come later. I feel that I've wasted a lot of money and time on fish bait. :/

In regards to the red plants... I might have to try a light with better par because I want my red plants to look more red than they were before the fish deaths.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

*Death toll increases...*

Found my apistogramma borellii laying limp under my lotus. We transported him to the hospital tank and ran to the LFS for emergency help. 

Since I have snails and amano shrimp in the tank I couldn't treat tank with anything that contains copper, hence paraguard was not an option. Purchased garlic guard, focus and metronidazole to combat possible internal parasites. Mix equal parts of focus and metro to thawed mysis shrimp. Add a spoon full of garlic guard to make the medical go down... in the most delightful way :red_mouth

I never thought that I needed a UV sterilizer since I had never had issues like this in my other 4 tanks and I thought that only salt water tanks needed it. But I guess desperate times calls for desperate measures. Purchased a UV sterilizer to zap the bad stuff growing in the tank. I'm crossing my fingers that it works.

Came home to say good bye to Mr. Borellii and found another body floating on the surface...

*Death toll = 10*

RIP:
1 Marble Hatchet 4/28 COD unknown
1 Marble Hatchet 4/29 COD ick 
1 Marble Hatchet 4/30 COD ick
1 Flame Tetra 5/2 COD ick. 
1 Boesemani Rainbow 5/3 COD lesions ?
1 German Blue Ram 5/3 COD unknown
1 Apistogramma borellii 5/4 COD unknown
1 Flame Tetra 5/4 COD from possible internal parasites.

Missing/ Unaccounted for:
1 Boesemani Rainbow disappeared 4/24
1 Threadfin Rainbow disappeared 4/28


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

Holy crap that's a lot of dead fish, sorry for your loss. I hope you can resolve this soon.


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## umarnasir335 (Mar 2, 2014)

Could it be that your tank is having mini-cycles, which causes nitrite/ammonia spikes?
The same thing was happening to me when I found out my father was turning off the HOB filter for the 10 gallon in my living room every night. The tank's ammonia would skyrocket overnight and ended up killing my entire school of cardinal tetras...

Did you test your water straight out of the tap? Some people get super high ammonia in their water...


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

This tank has been up an running for a couple of months. I didn't have any deaths until it added the hatchets, thread fin rainbows, rams, and borelli. I think the hatchets must have been the ones infected since they were the first to go. I'm hoping that I've gone through the worst of it. I've lost about half the population in my tank. I will probably not restock it until the tank's mortality rate is zero for a month. My SAE are huge and acting very aggressive towards its tank mates. I think he's part of the problem but my husband doesn't want to move him. 

I do 30 - 50% weekly water changes except for recently when I've been changing the water every two days. I did water testing and everything looks normal no ammonia spikes. I even bought a ammonia and ph alert indicator to hang inside the tank. 

I think I just got sick fish.... I learned my lesson. Always quarantine first. This has been a very costly mistake. I could have purchased my BML for the money I spent the past couple of weeks on fish, medicine, inline heater, and uv sterilizer.

The good news is that it gives my plants time to grow in and I can work on my garden outside.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

*Death toll rises*

I've been sitting in front of my tank for an hour now watching my fish swim back and forth. I noticed a dead snail and counted only 3 flame tetras, not 4. Either it jumped out of the tank when I left the lid open to feed the tank or it became a community snack. :icon_sad:
*
Death toll = 12*

RIP:
1 Marble Hatchet 4/28 COD unknown
1 Marble Hatchet 4/29 COD ick 
1 Marble Hatchet 4/30 COD ick
1 Flame Tetra 5/2 COD ick. 
1 Boesemani Rainbow 5/3 COD lesions ?
1 German Blue Ram 5/3 COD unknown
1 Apistogramma borellii 5/4 COD unknown
1 Flame Tetra 5/4 COD from possible internal parasites.
*1 Netrite Snail 5/5 COD unknown*

Missing/ Unaccounted for:
1 Boesemani Rainbow disappeared 4/24
1 Threadfin Rainbow disappeared 4/28
*1 Flame Tetra disappeared 5/5*


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Wow that's a devastating blow, but like they say, ish happens and we live and learn. In my experience hatchets are highly prone to ick. It does seem to be the new batch of fish what caused this, but Im curious about a couple of things: Did you add them all at the same time (that latest batch) and did they come from the same place?

What Im finding weird is they seemed to be affected by a wide range of afflictions, not just a bad ick outbreak. Some symptoms suggest internal parasites and others are from external, few others just up and dying.

Which leads me to wonder if there isnt something else going on that's causing overall severe stress to your fish, like (and I hate to say this) is it possible that Paver Base is starting to leach out some chemicals? 

Hope you dont mind the 20 questions, just that Im genuinely curious about what is going on here. :red_mouth


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

burr740 said:


> Wow that's a devastating blow, but like they say, ish happens and we live and learn. In my experience hatchets are highly prone to ick. It does seem to be the new batch of fish what caused this, but Im curious about a couple of things: Did you add them all at the same time (that latest batch) and did they come from the same place?


Yes the hatchets, borelli, and rams came from the same lfs. The threadfins were from another lfs. And yes, I added them all at the same time.



burr740 said:


> What Im finding weird is they seemed to be affected by a wide range of afflictions, not just a bad ick outbreak. Some symptoms suggest internal parasites and others are from external, few others just up and dying.
> 
> Which leads me to wonder if there isnt something else going on that's causing overall severe stress to your fish, like (and I hate to say this) is it possible that Paver Base is starting to leach out some chemicals?


Yes, my tank was afflicted with all these aliments after the last batch of fish and plants were added. In the back of my mind I am scared that the Paver Base is leaching chemicals... but I'm in denial right now. I'm blaming the new fish addition and plants. It could be that my tank never got over the columnaris outbreak that killed all my betta fries. Come to think of it, I think it happened right after I added a sick badis from the same lfs. UGH. :icon_idea Makes sense. I need to quarantine from now on. 

I wonder if making a 50% water change is too much. That along with moving plants around in the tank stresses my fish out too much. Right now I'm going to keep my hands out of the tank and keep feeding the fish the medicated food. I fear that there will still be more deaths to come as the fish aren't acting normally. I have a rainbow that is still swimming alone right next to the spray bar; A flame tetra is still hiding out in the plants; An irritated SAE continuing to chase other fish around and added to their stress... I think he's giving other fish heart attacks.



burr740 said:


> Hope you dont mind the 20 questions, just that Im genuinely curious about what is going on here. :red_mouth


I don't mind your questions. All questions are welcomed. I hope that others can learn from my mistakes or offer up any suggestions or solutions. 

What I have learned from all this is that I need to *quarantine all new fish*.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

It does sound like that LFS just has some crappy fish, in some crappy water probably. Hopefully that's all it is.

Id probably find another home for that sae. Because not only is he going to make it tougher for the fish you have left to recover in a stress free environment, it doesnt sound like he's going to be a good tank mate for any future additions either.

That's all I got atm  Good luck!


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## mot (Sep 17, 2011)

I don't have any additional advice on the sick fish that you haven't already mentioned. I can add my 2 cents on the water changes. I don't think water changes should be a problem at all and will only help. I haven't had any issues with 75% water changes every other day or even every day over the past 5 years. I do this on both my ADA 90P and my ADA 30C. I use a python to siphon down the tank and then flip it over to fill. I double dose Prime prior to the refill. And then add GH booster and ferts. Just be careful of dramatically changing the TDS. That's the one thing I try to keep stable. Get a TDS pen if you don't have one.

The Alpharetta tap water has a TDS of about 45 ppm. GH of about 0.5 dGh and KH of <1 dGH.
My ADA 90P with adding GH up to 5dGh and EI is kept around 155 to 165 ppm.
My ADA 30C with adding GH up to 5dGh and PPS Pro is kept around 115 to 125 ppm.

So if you have a high TDS now you will want to work it down gradually. PM me if you need any help.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

*Dead, Dead, Dead*

I thought my GBR was getting better but I found her floating on her back in the hospital tank a few minutes ago.

*Death toll = 13*

RIP:
1 Marble Hatchet 4/28 COD unknown
1 Marble Hatchet 4/29 COD ick 
1 Marble Hatchet 4/30 COD ick
1 Flame Tetra 5/2 COD ick. 
1 Boesemani Rainbow 5/3 COD lesions ?
1 German Blue Ram 5/3 COD unknown
1 Apistogramma borellii 5/4 COD unknown
1 Flame Tetra 5/4 COD from possible internal parasites.
1 Netrite Snail 5/5 COD unknown
*1 German Blue Ram 5/6 COD popeye with possible secondary internal parasite
*

Missing/ Unaccounted for:
1 Boesemani Rainbow disappeared 4/24
1 Threadfin Rainbow disappeared 4/28
1 Flame Tetra disappeared 5/5


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

*TDS Pen Recommendation?*

Looking for a TDS pen. Does anyone have any suggestions of brand or model?


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

MamaJu said:


> Looking for a TDS pen. Does anyone have any suggestions of brand or model?


There is no "good" one. The el cheapo ones are as good as we need. I have been using one of those baby blue $20 ones for years now, no problems. Your tank looks great! Can't wait to watch it mature.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

thanks xmas_one. actually your man cave is one of my favorite tanks


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

*EI Dosing*

Does it matter if I EI dose after the lights come on? What if I dose at night after the lights go out? Does it matter?


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

*Mia*

Trimmed and replanted some stems that were uprooted by the SAE. Took 1 SAE out of the tank and put him into another tank.

Some how a threadfin rainbow went missing. I wonder if it got sucked up into the python... Otherwise I haven't found any more dead bodies in the tank. I'm still feeding them the focus/ metro/ garlic mix. I think that it's been helping a lot. 

*Death toll = 14*

RIP:
1 Marble Hatchet 4/28 COD unknown
1 Marble Hatchet 4/29 COD ick 
1 Marble Hatchet 4/30 COD ick
1 Flame Tetra 5/2 COD ick. 
1 Boesemani Rainbow 5/3 COD lesions ?
1 German Blue Ram 5/3 COD unknown
1 Apistogramma borellii 5/4 COD unknown
1 Flame Tetra 5/4 COD from possible internal parasites.
1 Netrite Snail 5/5 COD unknown
1 German Blue Ram 5/6 COD popeye with possible secondary internal parasite


Missing/ Unaccounted for:
1 Boesemani Rainbow disappeared 4/24
1 Threadfin Rainbow disappeared 4/28
1 Flame Tetra disappeared 5/5
*1 Threadfin Rainbow disappeared 5/9*


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

*Spray bar not spraying; filter intake not sucking*

*Maintenance:*
Did a 50% water change;
added excel (2 cap full = 10 ml); 
dosed EI macro; 
added iron ( 2 cap full = 10 ml)

Spray bar barely has any pressure and only the last 4 holes are spraying out water. The other holes barely have water trickling out if it. I put my hand around the intake and watched to see if anything was being sucked in... I didn't feel any suction and it didn't look like anything was being sucked in. I wonder if the filter and hose needs cleaning.

*Does the inline UV sterilizer and inline heater cause too much resistance to the canister filter (Eheim 2215)? If cleaning the canister and the hose doesn't get the flow circulating better, what are my options?* :help:


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

MamaJu said:


> *Maintenance:*
> Did a 50% water change;
> added excel (2 cap full = 10 ml);
> dosed EI macro;
> ...


Would it hurt to put the UV Sterilizer and inline heater on a seperate water pump? I know in my pond I just have a cheapo 680gph pump that I got from Home Depot for 50 bucks. I'm sure you could find a lower flow rate pump for much cheaper. Just hook them up to a seperate pump from the canister. They shouldn't be causing too much resistance, but it does add to the distance the filter has to push, though not by a lot.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

Thank you Little Soprano. I didn't realize that I could use a different/ separate pump for the inline heater and uv sterilizer. I'll try that and see if the flow is better. 

*How can you tell if your tank isn't getting enough flow? What is the ideal flow for the tank*? I thought that the Eheim 2215 was enough for my 75 gallon but I'm not sure. My plants aren't swaying in the tank. *When do people get power heads and circulators?*


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

MamaJu said:


> Thank you Little Soprano. I didn't realize that I could use a different/ separate pump for the inline heater and uv sterilizer. I'll try that and see if the flow is better.
> 
> *How can you tell if your tank isn't getting enough flow? What is the ideal flow for the tank*? I thought that the Eheim 2215 was enough for my 75 gallon but I'm not sure. My plants aren't swaying in the tank. *When do people get power heads and circulators?*


Personally on my 40 gallon long I have a Biowheel 200 (rated for 50 gallons), a very powerful air bubbler that sits underneath it, and on the opposite side of the tank an Aquaclear 802 Powerhead (rated for 70 gallons) hooked up to the UGV. Between the both of them I have quite a lot of flow in the tank, and I noticed when I took out the air bubbler, the fish weren't as comfortable. I probably loose CO2 cause of it, but the fish are way happier with it, and my plants do move in the current. I found that with only current on one side of the tank, it wasn't reaching across the entire 4 feet. I also was getting a film too. The Aquaclear powerhead thats in there, you can adjust the air going into it too, but I just have it moving all water, and it keeps both my fish and my plants happy. 

You could probably use an Aquaclear powerhead (or similar) to move water through the UV and inline heater if you wanted, though I know mine would only accept a 1/2 inch tube or bigger (they are meant for UGVs). But I do know that Aquaclear 802 is nearing 15 years old, even served on a Saltwater tank :hihi: and has not lost an ounce of flow.

I think if you do route your UV and inline heater into a seperate waterpump, and place the outlet for it at the opposite end of your tank or in a dead spot it should be enough to get good water movement going depending on how powerful of a pump you get.


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

Honestly, what I do in my 75 for flow is just rely on the two korelia 750's I have. I also am filtering with two eheim 2217's, but instead of the spraybars I have these little wedge things that I can aim wherever I want (one at the surface to make some movement on top, one pointing down because its where my co2 is coming from).

I don't think you'd have much of an issue with the heater and UV on yours....one of my filters goes, from the intake, inline heater to uv sterilizer to the actual filter and then going up meets the co2 diffuser.

It might be worth it though to invest in a second filter. Mostly because if something happens to one of the filters then at least you have another one keeping the tank going. Plus, it would also add more flow.


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## mot (Sep 17, 2011)

I run an eheim 2217 on my 48 gallon and have nothing on the return and this is barely acceptable in my opinion. I would recommend 2 eheim 2217s on a 75 gallon like hybridherp is running. This would also allow for alternating maintenance on them to minimize upsetting the biological filtration.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

I had a feeling that the eheim 2215 wasn't enough for the 75 gallon. However trying to convince my pocket book (husband) was a lost cause. Maybe if I found one for a good price he will concede. Who knows... I'm still waiting on him to fix my co2 mixer thing. It was leaking and flooding the floor. He is convinced he can fix the $25 piece of crap instead of buying a new one. He is also trying to superglue the broken glass lid...

*What is a good way to hide all the co2 lines in the tank?or is there a better way to inject the co2?*:icon_ques


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

MamaJu said:


> I had a feeling that the eheim 2215 wasn't enough for the 75 gallon. However trying to convince my pocket book (husband) was a lost cause. Maybe if I found one for a good price he will concede. Who knows... I'm still waiting on him to fix my co2 mixer thing. It was leaking and flooding the floor. He is convinced he can fix the $25 piece of crap instead of buying a new one. He is also trying to superglue the broken glass lid...
> 
> *What is a good way to hide all the co2 lines in the tank?or is there a better way to inject the co2?*:icon_ques


Lol we tried duct taping our glass lid, didn't work very well. Yeah I would personally suggest a second filter on that 75, if the filter is rated for the tank size, I normally get two, or get one a few sizes up. I do prefer those wedge outputs compared to the spray bars as someone said above, you can much better control the direction of the water coming out. And they are easier to hide.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

Husband superglued the broken glass lid and put it back into place. It doesn't look good but it works. Now one will see it unless you open up the canopy and lift up the lights. Not a big deal. It's just there to keep the fish from jumping out.

Husband cleaned out canister filter and hoses, then moved the intake from the opposite side of the tank from the spray bar and placed it on the same side of the spray bar. He cut some of the extra hose in the intake and now the flow is much better. Apparently there was a bunch of dead plant debris in the filter. When he put the spray bar back up, a bunch of nasty brown stuff was being sprayed all over the water and floating every where. *GROSS. * 

5/10/2014 full view







left side







right side








Need to let the plants grow in to hide the intake filter and need to figure out how to work the CO2 into the tank better. Right now I have a long blue hose connected to a little diffuser thing.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

Is there anyway, as silly as it sounds, you couldn't attach it to the moss wall and let moss grow over it? Or just tie moss around it, and anchor it to the wall? I've let green algae grow on mine and it blends in way better, but if you could get moss to grow over it, you probably wouldn't be able to see it at all in a month or two.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

Good idea Little Soprano. I could run the tubing along the back corner, down the left side under the moss. It could work.

I think that I should change the air tube out for black or clear instead of the blue my husband picked out. We have a bunch of clear air tube all over the house but why he decided to put the blue one on is beyond me. I think he does it to make me crazy.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

Tank needs a trim but I'm not sure how I should handle it. I don't want to overdo it like last time. Anyone have any advice?

Still can't get the rotalia to turn redder. I think I might need to invest in a new light in the future. Currently I have a zoomed aquasun T5ho over the rotalia. I thought that the T5ho would be enough but I guessed wrong. Does anyone any any idea?


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## Veneration (May 23, 2014)

Let me preface this by saying: I'm a complete newbie to this!

Your journal is what finally convinced me to sign up here, after lurking for ages. 

Anyway, I know nothing about Dutch requirements other than what you've said in this thread, so I don't know if there are any particular things to keep in mind. That said, I think most of the tank looks really good at this point and doesn't look like it needs a trim to me. The only bits that look like they could use it are the very left and the very right edges, where it looks like it's starting to "overgrow" out of the tank. But I'm not sure if that's the necessary bits to hide the filter and whatnot. So that's probably not very helpful... but IMO this level of growth looks really nice.

Unrelated question: How are the fish doing? I'm really hoping that you haven't lost any more and that it was a disease issue rather than the paver base leeching chemicals. ... mostly because I'd sure like to try that base out myself.  But you've got such a lovely tank; I really hope it continues to work well!


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

Welcome Veneration,

I've learned so much from being a part of this community. I have found that this community in particular has been very kind and provide a wealth of knowledge. Sharing my experience has allowed me to learn things I didn't even think about when it comes to planted tanks.

My fish stopped dying after I added the UV sterilizer. I haven't added any other fish nor any other plants. Running the CO2 and dosing EI have not had any negative affects on the fish either. 

So far the paver base has not deteriorated. I haven't been able to find a TDS pen at my local hardware store so I will have to order it online when I get the money. Once I get it I might have a better idea of any changing chemicals. 

I probably won't add any more fish until I get my plants grown the way I want it. I haven't really moved any plants around or did much trimming because my husband has been home. There is always a big debate about having a plan and stressing the fish.... blah blah blah. Not very zen at all.

In regards to the plants on the right... I haven't decided how long I am going to let the Brazilian Pennywort (Hydrocotyle leucocephala) grow. I was using it for a curtain effect. It looks great in person. I'm still getting the Jungle Val on the left to grow in more. If it doesn't work out, my back up plan is to pin some needle leaf java fern to the wall. There's a bald spot on the left wall anyway. The Anubis isn't growing in like I like it to and it's not really adding anything to the tank. I'll keep it there for now. It's a work in progress.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

Equipment: Upgraded to eheim 2217. Now I can see my plants sway a little. Did a trim and rethinking some plant choices. 

Plants: I'm not loving the amazon sword. I had to trim it back heavily so that it didn't over shade the other plants. I took the Anubis off the left wall because it wasn't looking good. I had to repin lots of moss as it's pulling off the wall. I think my mystery snail keeps climbing on it and pulling it off. 

Moss wall: at first I tied fishing wire to the foam boards to keep the moss attached. Now that it has grown in, it sags in some parts so it needs repinning. However the left board was attached different. I used a white mess thing for the moss to grow in but took it off after a month because I was getting impatient as it didn't seem to be growing throw the plastic mess. The moss grows more evenly with this method but pulls off easily since it has nothing holding it onto the foam. Now there is a huge bald area on the left wall.

Red plants: still having issues getting plants to turn red. Still trying to convince husband that I need the BML 6400k instead of the zoomed aquasun t5ho.


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## umarnasir335 (Mar 2, 2014)

MamaJu said:


> Equipment: Upgraded to eheim 2217. Now I can see my plants away a little. Did a trim and rethinking some plant choices.
> 
> Plants: I'm not loving the amazon sword. I had to trim it back heavily so that it didn't over shade the other plants. I took the Anubis off the left wall because it wasn't looking good. I had to repin lots of moss as it's pulling off the wall. I think my mystery snail keeps climbing on it and pulling it off.
> 
> ...


As far as I know, plants turning red should not be an issue about spectrum or type of lighting (t5s or leds). I have all sorts of red plants: aromatica, l. senegalgensis, various rotalas, l. sp red, etc. in my 20L and I saw that the reds were subdued due to lower co2 levels more than anything else.

As long as the stems are not being shaded and you're dosing EI (I dose extra iron), then you should get all these colors. Might I ask, what plant do you want to color up more?


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

If it helps I do have two red plants (ludwigia and rotala, along with another one whose name I don't know), and they have a beautiful red/orange look to them under 2 T5HO. Just 6500K grow lights. I also dose a little extra iron in the tank as well.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

I've been EI dosing and adding Seachem iron too. I checked my CO2 and discovered that I ran out... So once I get that taken care of, I will revisit the issue.

Here is a picture of my Rotala macrandra looking green with red stems... not red as I expected.









Here is the full tank after water change, trim and replanting. I moved the jungle val to the back right corner but I think it was better at the front left. I want to remove the Rotala rotundifolia since it looks too similar to the Rotala macrandra. *Any suggestions?*


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

*Red plant dilemma*

CO2 has been refilled and on for a couple of days... I have been dosing EI and iron. 

Here is the updated pic








*Notice any difference?*

I am going to try replacing the rose bulb in my t5... Maybe it will make a difference in the red plants because nothing else seems to be working. I also set my satellite current to white and increased the red to max. Still nothing but green. 

*Are the old leaves supposed to turn red too or will only the new growth be red?*

What am I doing wrong? :help:


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Only the new growth on my L repens and other two Ludwigia varieties turn red, not sure about Rotala Ive never had any of that.


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## jfynyson (Apr 15, 2013)

You want red ? Well here's a sure fire way to get it IMO. I just saw this posted...either way try some of these plants. I think you'll love them. 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=659442


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

I think it's looking really good. I wouldn't worry about trying to get the red to come out. Just focus on growing the plants well and if they are meant to be red it will happen. I have 3 different red colored bulbs in my fixture and that helps bring out the reds but it really depends on the plants. Some people try limiting certain ferts to bring reds out but I don't want other plants to suffer just for the sake of getting a plant to be more red. 

How's the moss wall going?


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

Ua Hua,

Am I trimming my tank too often? I might get a little carried away with the scissors 

The moss wall is a hot mess  I tried several different kinds of moss and two techniques to attach the moss to the foam walls. 

The taiwan moss on the right wall looks good but grows very slowly. I attached it using the fishing wire so it's very patchy.

The christmas moss on the left wall was attached by itself since I used the plastic grid thing. It is growing in very slowly but looks the best IMO. It's crawling on the wall nicely but there are a lot of bare spots. 

The back wall is all Java moss and it's growing like crazy. Unfortunately it's not growing in very evenly and some of it's not even attached to the wall, it's hanging on to the wall by the fishing wire. I've had to pin the moss down.

I'm debating if I should try to trim the wall. The thing that is annoying about the moss is that it gets everywhere. I find moss growing in between the stems of all the plants and makes the tank look messy. I try to pull and pick up as much as I can but sometimes I end up pulling up plants instead. Not worth the trouble.

AND I have an infestation of pond snails. They are crawling all over the moss wall. I'm not sure what to do. I got rid of the pea puffer fish I had because it was nipping at all the other fish. But now my tank is being over run. I normally don't mind the snails but there are so many it's distracting.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

In a Dutch tank I don't think there is such a thing as trimming too often. I would actually trim your plants that are at the surface. It's hard to tell in the picture but the ones that look to be Rotala rotundifoila. I would trim them about halfway down and replant the tops next to them and with a couple more trimmings they will become bushier rather than just a tall stand of plants. I know what your saying about the moss getting intermixed within all your other plants. I have fissidens in my tank which is a little easier to maintain but I also have peacock moss which is a pain in my butt as it ends up floating around and getting in places I don't want it. Here's a decent video on trimming and maintenance on a Dutch style tank.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Guy in the video sure is handy with those tweezers. I'd say he's done that a time or two..


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

I started a new job!!! Yeah. So I've been too busy to keep up with my journal. I'll try my best to post the pictures in order and hopefully I can remember every thing correctly.

I decided that the amazon sword was getting too big and shading out too much underneath. My husband added a powerhead to the right of the tank and added a spray bar to the middle bottom of the tank. I purchased some downoi, cherry shrimp, thread fin rainbows, serpae tetras, and dwarf cory catfish from Mot. Everything was doing great... only lost 1 cory. 









Everything grew inches daily and the moss wall was overgrowing. But I was still have trouble getting plants to grow red. We changed the light bulbs on the zoo med to see if it would help.









The luscious green downoi that I got from mot was slowly dying. My lace leaf wisteria was also dying. I only had a sprig left. The only thing that I could figure out was that it wasn't getting enough light. The tank was getting enough CO2 and EI dosed the tank every other day. Still everything except the downoi and wisteria grew. 









So I decided to cut everything back and do some rearranging. I pulled up and removed the Rotala macrandra (Butterfly) and moved the Rotala rotundifolia in it's place since I had more success growing the Rotala rotundifolia. I also removed the Cabomba purple because it kinda blended into the moss wall. 

My husband finally let me get the BML. I think it's the Dutch one. Well after we replaced the zoo med T5HO, the plants in my tank started to turn red and the color on the fish look amazing. 









I can't believe the transformation happening in my tank. It's so exciting to see how my tank has changed since the beginning. The moss wall is awesome and there hasn't been any problems with the paver backboard. However the pins that I used to hold the moss onto the wall rusted. I'm not sure if there will be any issues with the iron rust. Maybe it would continue to add iron to the tank for the red plants to use. So far, there have not been any adverse reaction for the fish and the shrimp and snails continue to multiply. 

Now I'm just waiting for everything to grow back in. I still need to work on getting every plant to grow better. I continue to struggle growing downoi and wisteria. Everything else looks pretty good.

I'm open to any suggestions


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

That's looking great!! Keep it up! :thumbsup:


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

*Too good to last*

It's been a few months since I posted pictures... so much has changed. I was so busy with work and the kids that my tank got a little overgrown.





































The plants were lush and green. I loved it! The fish were happy because of all the hiding places and the shrimp were multiplying. I was going to do some trimming the next morning.

Tragedy struck... everything was lost. 








What happened???







Kids decided to feed the fish 

By the end of the 2nd day, all but 2 rainbow fish died. Luckily the threadfins and cory cats from Mott made it...

The end of the 75 gallon Dutch Challenge








*FIN.*


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## DillZPickleZ (Nov 3, 2013)

Aww that's too bad. And right when i started following the journal


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## ROYWS3 (Feb 1, 2014)

That's really too bad.

So have you decided what comes next?


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## tylergvolk (Jun 17, 2012)

Wait, what happened? Your kids fed the fish and everything died? Doesn't make sense...

I'm curious about what you did to irradiate the fish diseases in your tank(first round). I read you got a uv sterilizer. Which one?

I'm having similar problems in my 125. Didn't quarantine, and now got parasites/disease of some kind...


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

My kids were on a sugar high or something. They were fighting over who was going to feed the fish. As usual it was always a contest. They both took handfuls of fish food and threw them in all the tanks. Fish pellets covered the floor... You couldn't even tell that I had black flourite substrate anymore. 

So they did they while I was sasleep in bed. My husband discovered it when he woke up in the morning. Fish were bloated and floating.... Dead dead dead. I was devistated. So while pulling out all the dead fish I had to pull up the plants vacuum up the food. I was so upset that I couldn't think straight. I should have left the plants floating in the tank but instead I left it in a bucket. Of course everything turned into soup.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

I'm still upset. This actually happened a couple of months ago. I just wasn't ready to talk about it  it still hurts


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## mot (Sep 17, 2011)

That really sucks. Next time reach out for help! You are not alone as Im sure everyone on these forums has had bad experiences. Ive had plenty of them myself. When your ready to restart just drop me a message as often I have cuttings or other stuff that I don't have the time to sell or raok.


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## du3ce (Jan 26, 2013)

sorry to hear i know how it feels, i lost all 8 discus ive growned out to adults in one day, youll take a break then get back into it again.


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## tylergvolk (Jun 17, 2012)

Oh my God. I'm sorry to hear about that. I completely understand, I would be upset as well.

Maybe you could help me save my fish by sharing some details about your experience. I'm curious about what you did to irradiate the fish diseases in your tank(first round). I read you got a uv sterilizer. Which one?


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## Riceman (Nov 17, 2014)

This bummed ME out...
It will be easier the second time,you have the knowledge now 
and the equipment......start again!


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## chazde3 (Nov 7, 2010)

This made me feel sick. Time to rebuild and put a lock on the aquarium.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

*End of 2014 Dutch Challenge; Beginning new Dutch Challenge*

I decided to start again and try out some new things.

I'll be starting a 2015 Dutch Challenge: 75 gallon journal soon.


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