# Week and and half old dirted tank -looking for tips/advice please



## hennyis1 (Oct 5, 2017)

So I'm thinking that I am in a bit over my head with my 20 gallon tank. I knew it wasn't going to be a walk in the park but I felt like I had a good grasp of the basics when starting a dirted tank. Long story short... more than half of my plants have melted and are probably beyond saving and brown algae is starting to show up. 

Despite some plants showing new growth, most have not faired so well since being planted. I started this tank the weekend before last, I've been doing daily 60% water changes and prepping the replacement water with Prime in hopes of helping to keep algae growth at bay. I only have plants in the tank and have yet to introduce any fauna yet. Brown algae is not just covering my plants and hardscape, but now my substrate too. My light is usually on for about 9-10 hours a day, dimmed to about half brightness as max brightness seemed too bright. But I was thinking the plants weren't getting enough light so for the past few days I've turned the brightness all the way up during the photoperiod. 

I have not used any fertilizers since I read that dirted tanks don't normally need them. I did started dosing Excel a few days ago after a water change. Too soon to know if it'll make a difference. When I have time, I'm going to stop by the local fish store and get more plants as I don't think I have close to enough to compete with algae. And would co2 help at all? Still on the fence about that. And apologies for the low quality pics. I only have a phone camera and they pics don't always come out so good.

If anyone is willing to share their thoughts I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks!


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## Carson Albright (Apr 1, 2010)

how long are you keeping your lights on and what type of lighting do you have?


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## hennyis1 (Oct 5, 2017)

Carson Albright said:


> how long are you keeping your lights on and what type of lighting do you have?


Hello and thank you for the reply!

I have a beamswork DA FSPEC Pent Freshwater 0.50 watt
Beamswork


I didn't have a timer before so I would turn the light on about 3pm and turn it off between 10-11 pm. It has a night and day setting but I do not leave the blue lights on overnight though.
Now that I have a timer I have it set to turn on at 10 am until 8 pm. First did that last night.


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## Ryantuomi (Sep 12, 2017)

Hi... why the daily 60% water changes? Were you getting a lot of ammonia off the dirt? What are the parameters like?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

That is way too much light, especially for a young dirted tank with a high organic load. And your running it for 10-12 hours, it's not gonna happen. I have a beamswork on a 20g that is 1/2 the strength and it grows everything.


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## hennyis1 (Oct 5, 2017)

Ryantuomi said:


> Hi... why the daily 60% water changes? Were you getting a lot of ammonia off the dirt? What are the parameters like?


Hey, thanks for the response!

Before I started my dirted tank, I felt I was pretty thorough in my research. Most threads, articles, and vids recommended daily water changes, up to 70% depending, to get the excess nutrients out. And despite my soaking of the driftwood, it was still turning the water yellowish/brown -so that was part of it too. I did not have any ammonia to help facilitate good bacteria growth as I was ok with being patient in letting the bacteria grow on its own. When I ran tests on my water, most everything seemed ok though the PH was usually below 7 (my water is naturally soft), but with the daily water changes I didn't really think too much of it. :/



houseofcards said:


> That is way too much light, especially for a young dirted tank with a high organic load. And your running it for 10-12 hours, it's not gonna happen. I have a beamswork on a 20g that is 1/2 the strength and it grows everything.


Hi, thank you for replying!

Ok, that's what I was afraid of too. I have a dimmer on my Beamswork and I tried to dim it to about half. But after a few days of that the plants were looking worse and worse so I assumed the light wasn't bright enough so the past few days I've turned it up to max brightness. When I get home, I'll decrease back to mid-brightness!


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I have this Beamswork on my 20G and it work great. 

ww.amazon.com/dp/B019YXYO0K/ref=twister_B019YXYNVA?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

It' about 1/2 the strength of yours. Especially with dirted tanks and very difficult to manage with highlight, particularly in the beginning. What is the dirt capped with? Even with dirt adding pressurized co2 will increase plant mass/uptake which will help control algae that is thriving off the decomposing organics in the soil and the high lighting.


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## hennyis1 (Oct 5, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> I have this Beamswork on my 20G and it work great.
> 
> ww.amazon.com/dp/B019YXYO0K/ref=twister_B019YXYNVA?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> It' about 1/2 the strength of yours. Especially with dirted tanks and very difficult to manage with highlight, particularly in the beginning. What is the dirt capped with? Even with dirt adding pressurized co2 will increase plant mass/uptake which will help control algae that is thriving off the decomposing organics in the soil and the high lighting.


The dirt is capped with eco-complete. I know a lot of folks had mixed feelings about using eco-complete as the cap, but for whatever reason, it just seemed like a good cap for me to use. I was looking for beach sand at my local hardware store (Home Depot) but I didn't really see what I was looking for and I didn't want to mess with sand. Plus, I live in a condo and not having access to a yard with a hose makes things a little more challenging when it comes to thorough rinsing.
I really am debating a co2 setup but I think if I do, my wife is going to kill me... ;O

I wish I knew about that light. I honestly just read most reviews on the ones after a google search and picked the one I have. >.>


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

The eco should be O.K. Are the plants pushed in enough to reach the soil? 

Brown algae in new setups is usually diatoms and is fairly common. If it's diatoms it should come right off. I wouldn't run the light more than 7 hours or so and keep up with water changes. Add easy plants and see how they do for you.


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## hennyis1 (Oct 5, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> The eco should be O.K. Are the plants pushed in enough to reach the soil?
> 
> Brown algae in new setups is usually diatoms and is fairly common. If it's diatoms it should come right off. I wouldn't run the light more than 7 hours or so and keep up with water changes. Add easy plants and see how they do for you.


I thought the plants were deep enough -the eco-complete has a gritty feel/sound when pushing plants in and when I reached soil it felt more dense so I stopped about there. I think one of the major mistakes I made was being too inconsistent with my plant choices but I was leery of buying plants online despite being pretty limited in terms of variety locally. I really wanted to go with s. repens carpet and dwarf hair grass as the midground but I visited a Japanese aquascape store near me and bought some really nice plants that I think were a bit too advanced for my level now that I think about it. The Japanese dwarf mini-grass is really struggling because it had to be pushed down quite a ways to reach the soil but barely pokes out of the cap.
When I get home from work today, I'm will swing by a local fish store and see if I can get the easier, hardier plants as you've suggested. 

Is it too early to add snails or shrimp? I'm guessing they could aid with the brown algae but if the tank isn't ready for fauna they'd probably not do too well either...


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Ehh, you have a great light. Don't need to regret it. Just have to learn how to use it. As @houseofcards have mentioned, for right now, it's just too much. Lucky for you, you researched enough to get the dimmer. But as your plants are suffering now, try cutting down the time in addition to dimming to give them a chance to recuperate.

I don't know if I've given the link to Darkblade's Primer you before. I hand it out so often that I forget. But recall that the light drives how fast your plants are consuming the other two things it requires. Nutrients and CO2. As you have dirted, nutrients may be covered somewhat, but what about CO2? Your plants have little to none to consume and they're breaking down. 

You're right to start adding excel to help with the situation. However, being that that light at full blast is known to be strong enough for pressurized setups, and your excel doesn't come close to what pressurized can supply, you'll just have to bring it down to meet what kind of CO2 you CAN supply. Just to give you an idea of how 'little' light is needed sometimes to just grow plants, I have an ecoxotic on pressurized co2 and I only push it at max for a 3 hour burst in a 7 hour photoperiod. All the other times, between its transitions, it probably averages around 20% for the other 4 hours. 

I understand the reluctance to go all in on CO2 as there's a huge amount of consideration to go pressurized and of course, the wife factor. So, like I mentioned in another thread, you can try to go with the cheapest solution for a little while. Add that excel, cut the light, and give it some time. You'll probably lose some of the plants that have already melted. There's just no saving that. If you can keep those big leaved ones in the back alive, healthy, and no algae, then you can think about moving forward. More easy low light tolerating plants and/or ground shading floaters like others have suggested are okay too. If you want to add more CO2 than just excel, but stay cheap, look into DIY CO2 with yeast/sugar or citric acid/baking soda or any of those other popular mixes these days.


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## hennyis1 (Oct 5, 2017)

ipkiss said:


> Ehh, you have a great light. Don't need to regret it. Just have to learn how to use it. As @houseofcards have mentioned, for right now, it's just too much. Lucky for you, you researched enough to get the dimmer. But as your plants are suffering now, try cutting down the time in addition to dimming to give them a chance to recuperate.
> 
> I don't know if I've given the link to Darkblade's Primer you before. I hand it out so often that I forget. But recall that the light drives how fast your plants are consuming the other two things it requires. Nutrients and CO2. As you have dirted, nutrients may be covered somewhat, but what about CO2? Your plants have little to none to consume and they're breaking down.
> 
> ...


Hi -thanks so much for taking the time to write all that out and for the link to the thread regarding co2. I don't think I've seen it before so I'm sure it'll have some valuable information. Seeing as how the weekend is coming up, it should give me some time to really think about what I should do in regards to adding co2 to the tank. I know that my tank is still pretty new but I just feel like I've really missed something crucial that would make the success rate of the tank better.

For now, my plan is to lower the brightness of the light to at least half, plant more beginner-type plants, keep up with the daily water changes (50%), and do some research on co2 setups. I will continue daily dosing the Excel (I think I have pretty much every bottle of Seachem that's available...) and see what I can do about the algae that's starting to show up. I heard you can use Excel to spot treat algae on plants but I'm not exactly sure what that's about. I was just going to use my fingers to rub the plants gently and use a toothbrush on the rocks. The substrate will be trickier as it easily gets sucked up by my siphon unfortunately so I'm still trying to figure that out.


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## hennyis1 (Oct 5, 2017)

Ok, I'm gonna get the following plants (mix of fore and mid-ground) and hope that it's enough for now at least to give algae a good run for it's money. 

s. repens
dwarf hairgrass (2)
bacopa
hornwort
rotala indica
water wisteria
red flame sword

Debating on getting some nerite olive snail though to help with the current present algae...


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## benstatic (Oct 15, 2017)

If it gives you any comfort, I am in week 3-4 of renovating my own 55 gal tank and am battling now green algae - with NO dirt - just a clay based substrate.
I had the tank running already for a long time, and let all my plants die, my filter got cruddy and nitrates skyrocketed, BGA everywhere in the tank before I started maintaining it again.

If I had the chance to re-do my renovation, after planting out, I would have started at 6 hours of light a day (I started at 9 and went to 10, and now am back at 7.5). I just read the best advice on a planted tank yesterday - make light your limiting factor in plant (and algae) growth.
I also would have reduced my CO2 injection at first, and went more slowly in ramping those up (I went from 0 to max on CO2).

my theories / current thinking is that with major or new changes to a tank environment, it takes time for the chemistry and plants and biological filters to adapt to the change in demands vs. available nutrients in the water column. I've noticed in my tank as this goes that I am overloaded on some nutrients and 0 on others - a good recipe for algae I think. Rooting plants use different nutrition than growing new leaves (different than flowering or fruiting).
Water changes battle the overload, and regular fertilization (not spiky) battles the shortages. 

I'm hoping my tank adapts / achieves balance after the initial rooting process - and will start cycling nutrients more effectively and most of these imbalance issues (algae) will disappear. 

If I were you, I would also get more plants to help starve out your algae.
Keep up with those water changes - 2X+ per week is probably good 10-20% at least until things look under control. I figure at the very least water changes will prevent algae from getting too far out of control.


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## hennyis1 (Oct 5, 2017)

benstatic said:


> If it gives you any comfort, I am in week 3-4 of renovating my own 55 gal tank and am battling now green algae - with NO dirt - just a clay based substrate.
> I had the tank running already for a long time, and let all my plants die, my filter got cruddy and nitrates skyrocketed, BGA everywhere in the tank before I started maintaining it again.
> 
> If I had the chance to re-do my renovation, after planting out, I would have started at 6 hours of light a day (I started at 9 and went to 10, and now am back at 7.5). I just read the best advice on a planted tank yesterday - make light your limiting factor in plant (and algae) growth.
> ...


hiya, Bentastic! I appreciate your comment and the tips. This whole thing has definitely been quite an experience and despite some of the uncertainty and setbacks, I'm looking forward to giving it my best shot!
I hope that you get the results you want with your tank sooner than later too!


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## hennyis1 (Oct 5, 2017)

ok, I've decided that I'm going to go for the co2 setup, all parts via amazon.com. 

Here is my list:

Dual gauge regulator for aquarium (includes bubble counter, check valve and solenoid) = $60
Paintball tank (20 oz) = $22
Paintball tank adapter CGA 320 = $11
Co2 tubing = $10
Co2 diffuser = $8
Teflon tape = $3.75

I think this should be a viable setup for a beginner co2 setup. Thoughts?


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## TexMoHoosier (Dec 14, 2016)

hennyis1 said:


> s. repens
> dwarf hairgrass (2)
> bacopa
> hornwort
> ...


I think you're setting yourself up for a tough ride. I would skip all of the difficult/high light plants on your list (s.repens, dwarf hairgrass and r. indicia) and look for easy, fast growing, lower light demanding plants. Get your tank established and figure out what you're doing before taking the leap with more difficult and demanding set ups. I saw that you're going to add a pressurized CO2 system, which will still benefit a low light set up (you'll just need less of it for it to be effective). In medium and especially high light set ups, almost all algae problems stem from poor plant growth due to low CO2. Figuring out CO2 can be tricky, even when you're not trying to get nose bleed levels to keep up with the demand in a high light set up. Once you figure out the CO2, you'll see the algae struggle to keep a foothold and your plants will take off. Add algae eating fish/shrimp/snails will not take care of your algae problems, but they are fun to have and have their place in a balanced system. If you don't fix what's causing your problem, algae will grow faster than any army of algae eaters can consume it. 

Take your time with getting into the hobby so the enjoyment does not get outweighed by frustration!


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## hennyis1 (Oct 5, 2017)

TexMoHoosier said:


> I think you're setting yourself up for a tough ride. I would skip all of the difficult/high light plants on your list (s.repens, dwarf hairgrass and r. indicia) and look for easy, fast growing, lower light demanding plants. Get your tank established and figure out what you're doing before taking the leap with more difficult and demanding set ups. I saw that you're going to add a pressurized CO2 system, which will still benefit a low light set up (you'll just need less of it for it to be effective). In medium and especially high light set ups, almost all algae problems stem from poor plant growth due to low CO2. Figuring out CO2 can be tricky, even when you're not trying to get nose bleed levels to keep up with the demand in a high light set up. Once you figure out the CO2, you'll see the algae struggle to keep a foothold and your plants will take off. Add algae eating fish/shrimp/snails will not take care of your algae problems, but they are fun to have and have their place in a balanced system. If you don't fix what's causing your problem, algae will grow faster than any army of algae eaters can consume it.
> 
> Take your time with getting into the hobby so the enjoyment does not get outweighed by frustration!


Hello -thanks for the reply! Sorry for the late response.
In hindsight, I definitely should have gone with more low-light plants that are beginner friendly. I guess the information that I had wasn't quite accurate in terms of the ease in growing the plants I've selected. 

I'm ready to start up the co2 after a big water change when I get home from work. Still kind of nervous about putting the co2 stuff together but I think it should be ok. The only thing that I don't like is I'll have to lay the co2 tank on it's side for the bubble counter to be upright as the regulator wasn't meant to work with a paintball tank I'm assuming. But other than that, I believe I have everything I need. ;D


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## Slushbob (Dec 12, 2016)

> I'm ready to start up the co2 after a big water change when I get home from work. Still kind of nervous about putting the co2 stuff together but I think it should be ok. The only thing that I don't like is I'll have to lay the co2 tank on it's side for the bubble counter to be upright as the regulator wasn't meant to work with a paintball tank I'm assuming. But other than that, I believe I have everything I need. ;D


I do not have CO2, but i have read that you need to keep the tank vertical. So that only gas co2 and not liquid co2 comes out...

I could be wrong, but i would recommend doing some digging on that:smile2:


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## hennyis1 (Oct 5, 2017)

Slushbob said:


> I do not have CO2, but i have read that you need to keep the tank vertical. So that only gas co2 and not liquid co2 comes out...
> 
> I could be wrong, but i would recommend doing some digging on that:smile2:


I think you are 100% correct. Because I'm using a paintball tank the regulator connects on top as opposed to the side so I will need to invest in a separate bubble counter which I'm ok with all things considering. So much trial and error... doh!


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

If your using an in-tank glass ceramic diffuser you can usually see the bubble rate before it moves to the underside of the ceramic disc. Many also have built-in bubble counters.


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## Oughtsix (Apr 8, 2011)

Since you have plants, no fish and algae problems just add a healthy dose of hydrogen peroxide. It should kill off the algae and not harm the plants.

I would stop doing water changes. Let the plants adjust to the new water parameters.

When I started my dirt planted tank I started with dirt, gravel, plants and dosed with ammonia to start the tank cycling. About 1 to 2 weeks into the fishless cycling tank I also thought I was going to loose all my plants! Most shed almost all their leaves BUT they started growing new buds. Those new buds flourished and 5 months later my tank is completely overgrown and the thought of pruning all those plants I fought so hard to grow is killing me!

My tank has had 12 - 14 hours of intense light daily since it was originally built. I had a pretty bad hair algae outbreak at one point. I pulled as much of the hair algae out of the tank as I could then treated with hydrogen peroxide. The HO killed off the remaining algae and it hasn't returned. My guess is my plants are out competing the algae for the available food (Will I have another algae outbreak if I prune my plants?)

I did use Seachem Flourish Excel sparingly during startup (I believe it is supposed to retard algae growth?). I went through the initial bottle of Excel then I ordered the bulk Metricide to make my own Excel... but I haven't found a need for it. My plants seem like they are growing an inch a day and I have no noticeable algae in the tank... I haven't added Excel in over a month.

I do not inject CO2.

We started with 6 guppies after the tank cycled and now have 40+ juvenile guppies in the 35g hex tank.


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## Ryantuomi (Sep 12, 2017)

Oughtsix said:


> Since you have plants, no fish and algae problems just add a healthy dose of hydrogen peroxide. It should kill off the algae and not harm the plants.


what do you consider a healthy does of hydrogen Peroxide? How much per gallon?
asking as I have similar algae issues in a new tank.


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## hennyis1 (Oct 5, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> If your using an in-tank glass ceramic diffuser you can usually see the bubble rate before it moves to the underside of the ceramic disc. Many also have built-in bubble counters.


I am using one of those -thank you for bringing that to my attention! I was thinking of buying a separate counter but now I don't need to. ;D



Oughtsix said:


> Since you have plants, no fish and algae problems just add a healthy dose of hydrogen peroxide. It should kill off the algae and not harm the plants.
> 
> I would stop doing water changes. Let the plants adjust to the new water parameters.
> 
> ...


Thank you for providing your insight! It has helped quite a bit. When I get home, I will work on a peroxide solution that will hopefully aid in getting rid of the pesky algae.
I hope my tank sees the success yours has -I know it's not easy!


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## Oughtsix (Apr 8, 2011)

Ryantuomi said:


> what do you consider a healthy does of hydrogen Peroxide? How much per gallon?
> asking as I have similar algae issues in a new tank.


Do you have fish in your tank or no fish? 

When I had no fish I put a good size swig (maybe 3/4 to 1 cup) of HO into my 35 gal tank doing my best to direct the HO at the plants with the most algae on it after picking off all the hair algae I could. I believe I did that 2 days in a row (for good measure). It was very effective.

After I had fish I spot treated once with a turkey baster hitting the algae quite a bit more directly. I saw no signs of distress in my guppies or guppy fry. The algae never returned.

I should mention that the first time I treated while fishless cycling a near by snail immediately took a dive off the side of the aquarium down to the gravel and I don't believe he ever recovered. I didn't worry about this as the snails came in on the plants I ordered to setup my tank. I do not know if HO is toxic to snails or not but I would not be surprised to find out that it is. I think I remember reading shrimp are very sensitive to hydrogen peroxide.

I read about HO for treating algae on this site from a thread with similar very vague dosing recommendations. Sorry I can't be more exact. I read the Hydrogen Peroxide has a very short life in an aquarium before it combines with free floating hydrogen and turns into water. I just used the standard drug store hydrogen peroxide that my daughter used to put on her ears when she got them pierced.


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## Oughtsix (Apr 8, 2011)

hennyis1 said:


> Thank you for providing your insight! It has helped quite a bit. When I get home, I will work on a peroxide solution that will hopefully aid in getting rid of the pesky algae.
> I hope my tank sees the success yours has -I know it's not easy!


For me at least the toughest part is being patient! I want big lush plants and I WANT THEM NOW!!!!! 

I believe some plants are grown in air at the big plant supply houses. Then they have to transition to being submerged by loosing all their leaves and growing new leaves more capable of uptaking CO2 from water???? I remember how bummed I was when I thought I was going to loose my plants.


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## hennyis1 (Oct 5, 2017)

Oughtsix said:


> For me at least the toughest part is being patient! I want big lush plants and I WANT THEM NOW!!!!!
> 
> I believe some plants are grown in air at the big plant supply houses. Then they have to transition to being submerged by loosing all their leaves and growing new leaves more capable of uptaking CO2 from water???? I remember how bummed I was when I thought I was going to loose my plants.


Yes! So true! XD

So should I just do a major water change, spot treat with the peroxide, and then refill the tank? Or simply turn off the filters and then just throw some in the tank and hope for the best?


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## requiem (Oct 25, 2008)

hennyis1 said:


> Ok, I'm gonna get the following plants (mix of fore and mid-ground) and hope that it's enough for now at least to give algae a good run for it's money.
> 
> s. repens
> dwarf hairgrass (2)
> ...


Hello and welcome! As others have said stick to fast growing stems: bacopa, hornwort, wisteria, rotala. They are not just beginner plants, they're very useful 'starter' plants. 

I've been keeping dirted tanks for years and now (usually) manage to skip the dreaded algae phase altogether. I set up the tank, buy as many of the above as I can afford - I stuff the tank full of them. They are usually relatively cheap so even 20$ goes a long way  i keep low lights, no CO2. After a few initial large water changes I keep it minimal. Basically I like lazy tanks haha

once those are established, I can eventually replace them with more expensive fancy plants, being careful not to disturb the soil layer.

I love this hobby but yes it can get pricey and often throws curveballs at you. Like chess, basic concept is simple but difficult to master  10 years and still learning every day (which if I'm honest is a big part of the appeal, Never gets boring!)

Good luck


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## hennyis1 (Oct 5, 2017)

requiem said:


> hennyis1 said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, I'm gonna get the following plants (mix of fore and mid-ground) and hope that it's enough for now at least to give algae a good run for it's money.
> ...


Thank you so much for your detailed post! I wish I had a reset button as I now realize that all the reading I did and vids I watched really couldn't have prepared me as well as I thought it would. 
But I'm starting to grasp the ideas behind dirted/planted tanks so I'm grateful for that!
Now if I could just get rid of this dang algae heheh


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